# Some good 10" midbass recommendations?



## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

I have ordered the PRV d280ti CD:s which are a JBL d220ti clone. I'm gonna mate them up with Dayton H07E waveguides.
Then I ordered Eminence alpha 6cbmra midranges and plan to cross the between 500 and 800Hz.

Right now I have Bass Face PAW10 midbasses. They were cheapish.
You can find t/s parameters here: Bassface Car Audio - The car audio specialists

They sound pretty impressive and linear in my doors, but distort just a little on loud volume, probably due to low xmax. I was told it's around 7-8mm but...
I have 200W per midbass.I have them sort of IB now, but plan on doing a sealed or ported box depending on how much room I get inside the door.

Now I was gonna buy FaitalPro 10fe200. They are so cheap here I could buy 4 of them. I might.
But I found out from someone on here they max out pretty fast.
I would want to play them as low as possible. My current ones are crossed at 80Hz and they do take 60Hz without bottoming out but sound bad.

Now my budget would be around 100-150€/pair, and preferably something I can buy in Europe.


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Ground zero do some good budget 10” I think...


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Bluewoldemort said:


> I have ordered the PRV d280ti CD:s which are a JBL d220ti clone. I'm gonna mate them up with Dayton H07E waveguides.
> Then I ordered Eminence alpha 6cbmra midranges and plan to cross the between 500 and 800Hz.
> 
> Right now I have Bass Face PAW10 midbasses. They were cheapish.
> ...


Can you get Eminence in Europe? 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

Yeah I the GZCK 10XSPL is popular here, but It really isn't that sensitive and I haven't heard anything about xmax or midrange quality.

Eminence is a very popular brand, so some stores import the most popular drivers.


----------



## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

The ground zeros are interesting because they have a subwoofer surround instead of a W/M surround. So it would probably suite as a midbass better.
But I can't find any info or frequency graphs online. They are a little expensive tho.


----------



## ChiTownSQ (Apr 7, 2008)

I have enjoyed my Morel 10" Midbass drivers, but they are not considered inexpensive...


----------



## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

I would also need something that would keep up with my mids and highs. That means 95-100dB sensitivity + a gain in the midbass area.


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Bluewoldemort said:


> I would also need something that would keep up with my mids and highs. That means 95-100dB sensitivity + a gain in the midbass area.


Check out the Kappa Pro 10LF - the last HLCD install I helped with used these and they were very impressive.
View attachment Kappa_Pro_10LF.pdf


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

That one looks rather good, it's got the same low end extension as the ground zero but more midrange. It's just that I can't find this specific model here, just the normal kappa10A, which has half the Xmax.
How important really is xmax?
When I design subwoofer enclosures and plan on hipassfilters with max wattage I usually let it go close to Xmech to get the utmost SPL out of the sub.
It just seems that i'ts way more noticeable driving mids past Xmax.
What specs should I look for for maximum cabin gain from the door as close to kicks as possible? Could I model this with a Linkwitz transform filter?


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Bluewoldemort said:


> That one looks rather good, it's got the same low end extension as the ground zero but more midrange. It's just that I can't find this specific model here, just the normal kappa10A, which has half the Xmax.
> How important really is xmax?
> When I design subwoofer enclosures and plan on hipassfilters with max wattage I usually let it go close to Xmech to get the utmost SPL out of the sub.
> It just seems that i'ts way more noticeable driving mids past Xmax.
> What specs should I look for for maximum cabin gain from the door as close to kicks as possible? Could I model this with a Linkwitz transform filter?


Xmax comes into play the lower you play the MB but if you're planning to make a sealed enclosure for them and cross them over around 80hz then you may not need the LF Version with its 39hz Fs. Model them to stimulate the enclosure size to get f3 to coincide with where you intend to set the HP xover and then see what excursion looks like. 

Unless you have really small cabin you won't get much cabin gain above 80-100hz ... what vehicle are you working on? 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I use JBL 2012Hs in my car.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

In your region you should be able to get Dynaudio MW182's relatively cheap...


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

These are Italian so you should be able to get them in Europe, and hopefully a little less expensive than at the link below.

Not a ton of xmax, but Fs is 30Hz so if you stay in at least the 60-80Hz HP region you should get plenty of output considering their 91dB 1w/1m SPL sensitivity. Check out the specs and see what you think and model them for your use case scenario.

These may look unremarkable, but they are very high quality, excellent sounding drivers, with clean, clear output (when used within their limits like any driver). Extremely clean, detailed, and articulate midbass, and far better than the drivers you've been using, though these are more expensive, so there's that.  You gotta PAY to PLAY!  But honestly, these are a bargain for what they do in terms of SQ.

The gentleman I bought them from is one of the main members and contributors here (_ErinH_) and has very extensive knowledge in driver technology and performance (he does professional/commercial level speaker testing at www.erinsaudiocorner.com ). You can read what he says about them at this link...









FS: Ciare HW251N 10 inch midwoofer (THE best midbass...


Product Brand & Model: Ciare HW251N 10" Midwoofer These came out of my car. The only reason I'm selling these is because I bought a new car. These are literally *the best* midbass I've ever owned up to this point. They are 8 ohm but the sensitivity makes up for the power difference...




www.diymobileaudio.com





Ciare HW251N 10"






Ciare HW251N - Ciare HW251N is a 10 inch lightweight neodymium speaker for all mid-bass speaker systems- Ciare Speakers. Ciare HW251N 10 inch mid-bass speakers availa


Ciare HW251N speaker for mid-bass & bass speaker replacement or upgrade for recroding studio and home hifi speaker systems. The Ciare HW251N is a 10 inch speaker with 240 watts program power handling. Lots of of Ciare speakers for for recroding studio and home hifi speaker systems. Ciare HW251N...



usspeaker.com


----------



## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

The list price is above your limit but if going with Ciare I’d try to find a good deal on this 4 ohm 97.5 db 220W model:






Prodotto – Ciare







www.ciare.com


----------



## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

daloudin said:


> Xmax comes into play the lower you play the MB but if you're planning to make a sealed enclosure for them and cross them over around 80hz then you may not need the LF Version with its 39hz Fs. Model them to stimulate the enclosure size to get f3 to coincide with where you intend to set the HP xover and then see what excursion looks like.
> 
> Unless you have really small cabin you won't get much cabin gain above 80-100hz ... what vehicle are you working on?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I have a Volvo s80 2004. The doors look like this now (somewhat IB). I'm quite tall so I really couldn't expand the chamber much. Another 10 might fit next to it.








I have a Soundqubed HDX315D2 now ported to 29Hz on 3kW but I plan on making a ported trunk wall and maybe buying a second one. I don't really know how high it will play in a trunk wall, but I doubt not that high with the seats up.
That's why I don't really know how low I would want my midbass to play. Really I would want it to play down to 40Hz so that I can play around, but that's not realistic considering my SPL expectations.
My goal is SQ`L first inside the car, SPL outside as a demo car second. That's why midbass is very important, because it's hard inside, but even harder to play loud outside.

I am unsure of how big an enclosure I can get inside the door. Right now when I play music full volume and it rains, I can see the rain dancing on the window edge from the midbass.
I would say I can get 20-30L. Maybe 40L if I really try, but IDK. 
As said, the driver and the volume I can get, determines if I can make it ported.

It might be that this driver would work perfectly once in a good enclosure, but I have the opportunity to sell them and I would like to get a little more UMPF in the midbass and pant-leg.


----------



## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

Ge0 said:


> In your region you should be able to get Dynaudio MW182's relatively cheap...


I've heard of those many times, but I doubt they would keep up with the mids and highs. And they are still 260€ a piece😬



thehatedguy said:


> JBL 2012H


I would love some JBLs but they are not sold anymore and too expensive.
I bought the copy of the JBL compression driver because they were too expensive here.



bbfoto said:


> Ciare HW251N 10"


These do look good. I can find them for 104€ a piece.
The 91dB sensitiviy still isn't very close to the 95-100dB target I have tho.
They play lower than others I have tested, but can't keep up in SPL by any means really.



Catalyx said:


> The list price is above your limit but if going with Ciare I’d try to find a good deal on this 4 ohm 97.5 db 220W model:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This one also looks good. About 125€ per speaker.
It plays a little more midbass than the ones I have and a little less midrange. Thes would be good, but according to specs the Faital 10fe200 are just as good if not better.
IDK about reality tho but.


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Bluewoldemort said:


> I have a Volvo s80 2004. The doors look like this now (somewhat IB). I'm quite tall so I really couldn't expand the chamber much. Another 10 might fit next to it.
> View attachment 294209
> 
> I have a Soundqubed HDX315D2 now ported to 29Hz on 3kW but I plan on making a ported trunk wall and maybe buying a second one. I don't really know how high it will play in a trunk wall, but I doubt not that high with the seats up.
> ...


See what kind of price you can get for RCF (probably more than ur budget but definitely meets your needs.)

"Product Detail - RCF" MB10N305

How about dual 8s in each door? 

"Product Detail - RCF" MB8N251

If you do the trunk wall you'll be surprised at how well that will cover up to about 80hz (though I wouldn't try much higher than that as 100hz tends to pull the midbass image backwards IME) and running dual drivers gives you the 3db bump in efficiency for better impact. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

I hope I will be surprised by the trunk wall. I'm hoping to hit at least close to 150dB with that also.

Those RCFs look very interesting on paper. In WinISD they model very weirdly.
According to WinISD the 10s only need about 10-20L to port cofortably to 60Hz, which most other PA mids need at least 40l for???
It also very easily develops a peaked output curve. In sealed they don't play midbass that good but reach lower than all others.
WinISD gave them a recommended space of 3-7L???

But they are easily available here. The 8s are 112€ and the 10s are 200€ 😬.
Nice but I don't want to spend the same money than on my mids, highs and sub combined.

It seems like I'm searching for a unicorn.

The problem for me is I have some knowledge but almost no experience. I don't really know how they will behave in the car, because if cabin gain is enough under 80Hz, then even my current ones will play "loud" enough midbass when enclosed. 
But if those RCF's should be "high-linearity" midbass with "only" 5mm of xmax, then anything with 5mm should suffice if they don't bottom out?

I thought that I would spare myself some hassle by going 4-way instead of 3-way, but apparently 5-way is the sweetspot.🙃


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

The RCF midbass drivers are designed for use in their active line array assemblies that are quite small and ported with 1000 Watts per 10" pair and I've run them live crossed over at 80hz and never had a problem reaching ridiculous SPL levels. 

150db below 80Hz is pretty easy if you get damped and structural integrity right. 

140+db midbass from 80-300 is a whole different story... vehicle interiors are full of room modes in that range and when you get to that SPL level in that range it gets chaotic in a hurry. Midbass drivers that can work are generally a compromise since they're all designed for Professional PA systems with very exacting requirements for enclosure design that's often impractical in car audio. 

Like I said previously, the RCF drivers will get you there and their space requirements are more car friendly but you gotta pay to play. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

Yeah seems like I don't have the budget to upgrade right now. 
I might just buy 4x 10fe200s just to test if they would be enough🤷‍♂️


----------



## DeLander (Feb 23, 2006)

Bluewoldemort said:


> Yeah seems like I don't have the budget to upgrade right now.
> I might just buy 4x 10fe200s just to test if they would be enough🤷‍♂️


You might want to contact Eric Stevens of Stevens Audio either here or on Facebook. 

I'm pretty sure he was working on a 10


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Bluewoldemort said:


> Yeah seems like I don't have the budget to upgrade right now.
> I might just buy 4x 10fe200s just to test if they would be enough


Mehh... the 10FE200 really needs a huge enclosure to reach below 120hz effectively. The only one of the Faital Pros that I see that will work effectively below 1 ft³ is the 10PR300 and once again that's not really in your budget. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

daloudin said:


> Mehh... the 10FE200 really needs a huge enclosure to reach below 120hz effectively. The only one of the Faital Pros that I see that will work effectively below 1 ft³ is the 10PR300 and once again that's not really in your budget.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Yes but if you compare the 10fe200 ti ly paw10 they play louder and lower, and my paw10s peak at 80hz.
Ant the 10fe200 has a rather high qts which if I understood correctly gives a huge midbass boost with cabin gain, more than lower qts?


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Bluewoldemort said:


> Yes but if you compare the 10fe200 ti ly paw10 they play louder and lower, and my paw10s peak at 80hz.
> Ant the 10fe200 has a rather high qts which if I understood correctly gives a huge midbass boost with cabin gain, more than lower qts?


In very general terms Qts below 0.4 is suited to ported, Qts between 0.4-0.7 is suited to sealed enclosures and above 0.7 is best for infinite baffle. However, Q is only calculated at resonance and once a driver is mounted to a baffle/box is resonance changes from Fs to Fc so the Q changes as well. Also how Qts is made up from high Qes or high Qms can change that along with Vas and other parameters that affect resonance as well. So to say that this woofer will have better response in midrange output due to its Q is at best a generalization - that's not to say that it doesn't - it may very well but that could only be verified by instrumented testing or your ears. Modeling S/W is quite good at modeling low frequency response but it's an anechoic model that does not allow for in car response and midbass is dramatically affected by room modes, reflections and nulls in a car. My characterization of the 10fe200 as not suitable for a midbass was entirely based on the fact that it needs a large airspace or infinite baffle to produce useful bass down to 80hz - can't speak to its midrange performance as that's not something you can model and I have no firsthand experience with this model. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

The QTS vs enclosure application guide is based upon use in large free space listening environments to maximize performance for the given application. We are not listening in a large free or 1/2 space environment, we are listening inside an enclosure and it changes things significantly.

I can tell you that using those kind guides is not without merit and usefulness, but they should be applied with minimal weighting against other more important parameters.


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Eric Stevens said:


> The QTS vs enclosure application guide is based upon use in large free space listening environments to maximize performance for the given application. We are not listening in a large free or 1/2 space environment, we are listening inside an enclosure and it changes things significantly.
> 
> I can tell you that using those kind guides is not without merit and usefulness, but they should be applied with minimal weighting against other more important parameters.


Exactly - unless you listen with all the doors and sunroof open all the time! (jk) LOL If you have very specific interior measurements you can actually (sort of) simulate what happens when you put an enclosure inside another enclosure but you have to model it as leaky or aperiodically damped since no vehicle comes from the factory with hermetic seals and it's easier at that point to just build an enclosure and make instrumented measurements inside the vehicle then adjust as necessary.


----------



## Gearofwar973 (Jul 8, 2020)

Bluewoldemort said:


> I would also need something that would keep up with my mids and highs. That means 95-100dB sensitivity + a gain in the midbass area.


I strongly suggest the Faital Pro 10PR300-4 ohm they’re 98 db efficiency, play from 60hz-4500hz are extremely loud and very clear. They’re also water sealed and marine ready so an excellent choice for a kick panel midbass or door midbass install. These drivers are the lightest most capable midbass midrange I have found I purchased these over the B & C 10MBX64 and several other models. These drivers have a qts of .27 and we’ll work well in an aperiodic enclosure, sealed, ported even infinite baffle although infinite baffle would never get close to achieving the 60 hz tuning but 1.3 cubic foot enclosure with a 4” port at 2.5” long would do the job. I don’t think this a better all around midbass but these speakers cost about $240 each so they’re way more than 10FE200 or any other 10” midbasses. When you see them in person they look and feel like 8” midbasses and weigh only 4.5 pounds each. Hopefully this helps you in your midbass search I purchased mine to keep up with my Full Body HLCDs and I don’t think I could of made a better choice.


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

I’m going to be frank, people talking about midbass pulling back with a 150db boot wall?? Really? 😂 He isn’t going to get 130db from a pair of tens in his front doors to mate with them 🙈

Also putting tens in doors and then trying to push them low is a sure fire way to get mega phase issues and dips in the response

I’d be upping the crossover and playing the subs a little bit higher and using the pa gear as... erm... pa gear... stuff that is 95db efficient isn’t designed to have low midbass coming from it, it’s pure design is about loudness and getting the most from a system designed to play loud... you somehow want to use drivers not designed to play low to play low and keep the efficiency... you will run out of xmax way before the drivers get loud by trying to force them low as you have found out with your current drivers, they sound nasty when you push them low


----------



## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

dumdum said:


> I’m going to be frank, people talking about midbass pulling back with a 150db boot wall?? Really? 😂 He isn’t going to get 130db from a pair of tens in his front doors to mate with them 🙈
> 
> Also putting tens in doors and then trying to push them low is a sure fire way to get mega phase issues and dips in the response
> 
> I’d be upping the crossover and playing the subs a little bit higher and using the pa gear as... erm... pa gear... stuff that is 95db efficient isn’t designed to have low midbass coming from it, it’s pure design is about loudness and getting the most from a system designed to play loud... you somehow want to use drivers not designed to play low to play low and keep the efficiency... you will run out of xmax way before the drivers get loud by trying to force them low as you have found out with your current drivers, they sound nasty when you push them low


Although yes, 10" pa midbasses aren't supposed to play low, they mostly beat hifi drivers by sheer volume level and power handling. Here in Finland we have this guy, JoniK on yt and other socials. He has a 160db+ no-wall in a fiat punto. He has a pair of GZ 12" midbasses on probably around 700w each and he hit like 143dB from just those mids, in a "sealed" door. He had just two. So by rudimentary math I should be able to hit sometging close with same power and 2 pairs of tens. I'm not saying I will, but it should be possible.


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Bluewoldemort said:


> Although yes, 10" pa midbasses aren't supposed to play low, they mostly beat hifi drivers by sheer volume level and power handling. Here in Finland we have this guy, JoniK on yt and other socials. He has a 160db+ no-wall in a fiat punto. He has a pair of GZ 12" midbasses on probably around 700w each and he hit like 143dB from just those mids, in a "sealed" door. He had just two. So by rudimentary math I should be able to hit sometging close with same power and 2 pairs of tens. I'm not saying I will, but it should be possible.


It’s effectively an extreme car cabin, steel roof, reinforced windscreen and his woofers don’t exactly look in the best of health on every video I’ve seen... it’s not exactly a good comparison to a stock car with a pair of woofers fitted in a door 🤷🏽‍♂️ And all the subs in the rear will also add to the spl regardless of if they are playing or not... at some frequency they will act like a giant passive radiator... your Volvo unless you aren’t telling me something will maybe get to 125ish at most if I’m being very honest and that’s me being optimistic... especially digging down to 60hz which you say you want, you need to choose one or the other I feel and make efforts to go to one extreme or the other 👍🏼


----------



## Bluewoldemort (Nov 2, 2020)

Yes that example was maybe a bit extreme, but still a no-wall. I have dampened my doors at least 100% of the inside and I will be making a fiberglass box for the midbasses.
If I port that box I may get up to 6dB more "bass" plus cabin gain. And with good sensitivity midbasses and some power I should already be at 125dB anechoicly. 

Do you really think 130 isn't doable in my volvo with like 500W on each midbass?

How much would I even realistically need? I have compression drivers that play louder than I ever need, the midrange is going to reach 120dB anechoicly if no power compression happens.
How much more sound do I need per lower octave to sound "natural" or according to the "harman curve" or something, in a car?


----------



## SloVic (Oct 1, 2016)

Piston Excursion calculator







www.baudline.com





Can get a rough idea of why people are against your target spl. A pair of 10"s will use 12mm of xmax to hit 124db (6db down at crossover) at 60hz but at 70-85ish you may need even more xmax than that since there will be no/less attenuation. On top of all that the low end will likely be ****ty for drivers in the sensitivity range your looking at so you'll need some boost that will eat up that 500rms fast.

If you really want that kind of output you may need multiple drivers that dig deeper or step up 12 or even 15 inch mids.


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Bluewoldemort said:


> Yes that example was maybe a bit extreme, but still a no-wall. I have dampened my doors at least 100% of the inside and I will be making a fiberglass box for the midbasses.
> If I port that box I may get up to 6dB more "bass" plus cabin gain. And with good sensitivity midbasses and some power I should already be at 125dB anechoicly.
> 
> Do you really think 130 isn't doable in my volvo with like 500W on each midbass?
> ...


It's more about the car absorbing that output than how much energy you put in... every car absorbs energy at different frequencies and in different ways. The average dimensions from door to door usually create problems somewhere around 200-300Hz and the length from firewall to tail gate usually determines where cabin gain starts around about 80Hz where the frequencies are too long to be absorbed anymore and start gaining. (Why 150db bass is so easy in car.) That range from around 80-300Hz is where you have to start reinforcing body panels, strapping and welding in window stiffeners and generally turning a car designed by the manufacturer to intentionally absorb noise, vibration and harshness to one that is inert and solid so that you only have to worry about room modes and boundary effects. Now eventually you can overcome the absorption by continuing to add more and more energy but it's expensive and a total mess inside the car since you're getting more distortion from the car than the original energy from the Audio (if you don't go the extreme reinforce route.) And your budget has been prohibiting you already so...

The other big point is that most subs are quite capable up to about 500-1000Hz and in fact, quite often, have to be eq'd down considerably in this range when run to midbass frequencies. 

Before sinking any more money into these midbass ideas it would be advisable to go ahead and build your wall, get it tuned up and use IT to establish where you need midbass assistance and/or reinforcement of the car. Then once you have established where and how big the midbass deficit is you can use xmax times cone area to determine exactly what you need and not be guessing.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------

