# Is PPI (Precision Power) of today (2012) really as bad as what people are saying?



## xtremevette (Apr 14, 2011)

So I have been reading post after post on how PPI went downhill when they were sold and how they are not what they were "back in the day". Ok so I have been doing some poking around and I am wondering if the company that bought them currently (Epsilon) is getting a bad wrap. I wonder if the amps have drastically improved since the original sale of PPI went down when they were sold to Directed back in 01. Directed apparently let PPI go to crap to focus on Orion. I wonder if that tarnished PPI and now this new company is trying to bring them back to be closer to what they were. I mean times change...old school amps won't be back so to compare the new technology amps with those I think is pretty pointless. Iam more focusing on an excellent amp with great numbers across the board for an affordable price.

Epsilon Buys Precision Power From Directed

Montebello, Calif. — Precision Power (PPI), the popular amplifier brand of the early ’90s, was purchased from Directed Electronics by Epsilon Electronics on Nov. 7 for an undisclosed sum.

Epsilon also owns brands including Power Acoustik, Farenheit, SPL, Kole Audio and Soundstream Technologies. The company said the purchase will help Epsilon bolster its high-end market presence. Epsilon VP Gene Norvell noted, _*“We’ve had some technologies we’ve wanted to bring forward related to sound quality. So we were thinking of bringing it out under Soundstream or another brand. PPI was a natural fit because it was always about its sound quality.”*_

This new technology may be shown at International CES, Norvell said.

_*Directed purchased the brand at the end of 2001, along with the Orion and ADS brands, but was said to have focused on Orion at the expense of PPI. *_Norvell said, _“I don’t think Directed put the same focus on PPI as they did on Orion.” Directed did not comment on this specific question.
_
*Epsilon’s aim is to “bring PPI back to the luster of the early ’90s. and we certainly have the technologies to do that,” Norvell continued.*

The company will supply amplifiers and speakers initially, but could branch into other areas including electronics, Norvell said. It will also follow a path of limited distribution. Norvell could not state PPI’s current number of retailers but said it was “not many.”

Epsilon said it acquired PPI’s existing inventory and is currently in the process “of going through that.”

Directed has exited a number of businesses recently including the satellite-radio, mobile-video and car-locator markets. Mike Simmons, Directed Electronics president, said no other Directed brands are for sale at this time and no other category exits are planned apart from those already announced. “Directed is consolidating our focus on our core categories of security, remote start and mobile audio. In the mobile-audio category, 100 percent of our focus is now on the well-known Orion brand, which celebrates its 25th anniversary in 2009 with a top-to-bottom relaunch of the line,” he said. 
Release Date: 
2008-11-19 15:47:00
Abstract Web: 
Montebello, Calif. — Precision Power (PPI), the popular amplifier brand of the early ’90s, was purchased from Directed Electronics by Epsilon Electronics on Nov. 7 for an undisclosed sum.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

PPI won't ever be what it used to.


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## xtremevette (Apr 14, 2011)

> PPI won't ever be what it used to.


No offense but it is comments like this with no supporting data that hurts a brands name...I have seen plenty of the "it will never be the same" but yet have not found a single post saying..."tested the new PPI 2012 xxx amp". "these are my findings". Sometimes I swear people just jump on a bashing bandwagon.

As far as the picture goes...yep that there is the inside of an amp....your point? What is there or not there that your concerned about or focusing on?


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## donnieL72 (Jun 20, 2012)

there are quite a few people on this site that run PPI products. I wouldn't hesitate to run them. Are they on the same level as the top tier companies like Mosconi, Brax, Audison, etc., not really. Are they better than the lower tier companies, definately.


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## Schriever sound (Sep 9, 2011)

Not sure about the new amps but I have a ppi pc15 ds subwoofer and it sounds great! It looks Like a cretin vega knock off but it sounds great. Thinking of trying one of there new component sets now.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

It doesn't matter if I posted a whole essay explaining to you why it isn't the same. It just isn't. The feeling isn't there when I look at the new PPI models. Maybe a little when looking at the Power Class and PDX, but hardly. Look at the new Sedona... That's a PPI amp??

I agree with you that bashing a brand ruins their name but it doesn't matter in the end. Plenty of folks still buy products that are known to be trash.

Legacy products are considered by EVERYONE as garbage. Absolute garbage. I own a few old school Legacy pieces and I can tell you with 100% honesty that I would take my Legacy amps over any new "PPI" or Legacy amps every time. 

It's not really about good or bad when it comes to making a comparison between old and new products. Its the feeling you get. When you take an old Art series off the shelf and power it up you get a rush of joy that overpowers whether or not its as advanced as a new amplifier, whether or not its power hungry, etc etc

You said it yourself "old school amps won't be back so to compare the new technology amps with those I think is pretty pointless".


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the new stuff is bad. Like others, I too would definitely run them.

What I'm trying to explain is hard to put into words.


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## xtremevette (Apr 14, 2011)

SaturnSL1 said:


> It doesn't matter if I posted a whole essay explaining to you why it isn't the same. It just isn't. The feeling isn't there when I look at the new PPI models. Maybe a little when looking at the Power Class and PDX, but hardly. Look at the new Sedona... That's a PPI amp??
> 
> I agree with you that bashing a brand ruins their name but it doesn't matter in the end. Plenty of folks still buy products that are known to be trash.
> 
> ...


Well you definitely have a very interesting perspective for the way you chose an amp or product line. I honestly can say I never heard of anyone choosing or rating a brand, company or product by "the feeling you get". I guess to each their own...I definitely didn't see that one coming.


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## donnieL72 (Jun 20, 2012)

I know what you're saying. The old amps had a build quality to them that most new amps can't touch. Most of these new amps look and feel the same. Back then, amps had more style to them. I've read many times on this forum that today power is cheap. Most of the time it feels like it. Take an amp that cost $500 back in 1995 and compare it to an amp made today. That amp would probably cost you double if not more in today's money. You just don't get that feeling in your stomach about you newly delivered toy you used to.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

donnieL72 said:


> I know what you're saying. The old amps had a build quality to them that most new amps can't touch. Most of these new amps look and feel the same. Back then, amps had more style to them. I've read many times on this forum that today power is cheap. Most of the time it feels like it. Take an amp that cost $500 back in 1995 and compare it to an amp made today. That amp would probably cost you double if not more in today's money. You just don't get that feeling in your stomach about you newly delivered toy you used to.


Bingo! You get what I'm saying


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

Amplifiers haven't changed much, they are just getting smaller and more efficient. Amplifiers are a bit different than televisions and cars.

And hell, if were talking about cars, I'd take a nice Model T with a 350 over a 2012 Mustang any day. Once again, to me its about the feeling. Not so much the product.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Ugh.....here we go again.....This has been beaten to DEATH already on here! (advice:do a search so we dont have this all over again)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with new PPI or SS for that matter! Anyone that has used the new PC or Ref amps (really used them!) know just how spectacular they are. It would be a lot quicker for me to go over brands I have not used.....From F#1 and Brax to kenwood and sony....Ive used them all! If I were building an sq system now......and had the room....I would run the pc or ref amps in a heartbeat! I used several ref's in a ton of variations for a substantial amount of time. Best $ I have ever spent in car audio. Now I have a couple PPI phantoms (they were in a jeep.....) and they preformed flawlessly! No heat, great power, tiny, cheap, and plenty of flexibility! WIN!
Subs and comps? I really liked those too! the PC subs (red metal thingy for a dust cap) are hands down some of the best sounding subs I have ever encountered! You want a budget sq sub that can also "do some stuff" ? No clue why they are not more popular!

Most of the negativity is based on these premises......... ZERO experience with them, stuck on ignorant nostalgia (thats the biggie....look at the post above?), and the real issue is people just dont understand business and market.... PPI and SS since with Epsilon have grown a ton simply because they understand the markets..... This forum and the like contribute to roughly less then %10 of the audio market (fanatics There are already more then enough niche companys for us.....(sinfoni, mosconi, etc.....) How are they going to compete? Especially with the ignorance regarding epsilon? Those SS Ref amps rebadged with a different name would likely sell for twice as much and they are worth it IMO. 
Hell people had no clue about the human reigns that just got disco....... They are the EXACT amps as the originals just different cases because no one would pay the $$$$ for the art of the originals...They had a bunch of left over boards/parts..... They were an amazing bargain when considered what the originals sold for? No one wanted to touch one because it had Epsilon on it...... Its nothing short of ignorance (drives me crazy in case you hadnt noticed!). 

Just be careful what you read especially when people bash.....I would bet a LOT of $$ that most have never even seen one! Also be weary of those that attempt to compare with the old......Not the same market..its a mute point! Get over it! Epsilon is doing a great service to the PPI name right now. What used to be would not survive now.....certainly not well, and 90% of "those people" would ***** about the $$$ and not buy it. Again, thats a niche market and very very risky. They are making very solid products on all levels to suit various budgets and needs. Know what your shopping for and you will do well by them! (fyi-sedona is there entry level and actually provides great power/price/feature ratio! Do your research! No meant to be compared to sedona of 90's)


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

Brock, you'll never understand it. Us old school guys are just nut jobs 

There is no reason that I should spend all this money on old amps and subs when I could get new gear that puts out more power and is more efficient. I just do. When I see old school gear I see more than some amps and speakers, I see history. I see it and I want to keep it alive. 

It's just pure insanity


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## xtremevette (Apr 14, 2011)

rexroadj said:


> Ugh.....here we go again.....This has been beaten to DEATH already on here! (advice:do a search so we dont have this all over again)
> 
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with new PPI or SS for that matter! Anyone that has used the new PC or Ref amps (really used them!) know just how spectacular they are. It would be a lot quicker for me to go over brands I have not used.....From F#1 and Brax to kenwood and sony....Ive used them all! If I were building an sq system now......and had the room....I would run the pc or ref amps in a heartbeat! I used several ref's in a ton of variations for a substantial amount of time. Best $ I have ever spent in car audio. Now I have a couple PPI phantoms (they were in a jeep.....) and they preformed flawlessly! No heat, great power, tiny, cheap, and plenty of flexibility! WIN!
> Subs and comps? I really liked those too! the PC subs (red metal thingy for a dust cap) are hands down some of the best sounding subs I have ever encountered! You want a budget sq sub that can also "do some stuff" ? No clue why they are not more popular!
> ...


Thanks for the writeup. Very nicely put.


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## xtremevette (Apr 14, 2011)

SaturnSL1 said:


> Brock, you'll never understand it. Us old school guys are just nut jobs
> 
> There is no reason that I should spend all this money on old amps and subs when I could get new gear that puts out more power and is more efficient. I just do. When I see old school gear I see more than some amps and speakers, I see history. I see it and I want to keep it alive.
> 
> It's just pure insanity


ahahha I think I get you now... your just plainly addicted to the 80's and 90's. I hear and feel ya...Iam that way about some things too...just not really stuck on electronics from back then whether they were good or not. But like I said...you bring up an interesting perspective of it...one I never really even thought of.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

I used some of the Rubicon amps which supposedly carried over to the PPI entry level. I was not impressed or happy with the purchase at all. But then again, I was coming off of DLS A series amps. Put a 4-ch in place of the DLS A3 dual mono. The rub was bridged to a set of DLS Nobelium 8" 2-way components. The amp did not stay in my car for more than a day. It seemed like the DLS had more balls to it. I didnt clamp anything, but the rubicon should have had alot more power then the DLS by specs. I also notice a few bad solder joints in the Rubicon. I played with the settings for a few hours, but just could not get it to sound great. No matter what gain I had it set at or what kind of EQ I applied with my h701. 

I want to try the SS ref amps though. Seems they get favorable reviews.


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## donnieL72 (Jun 20, 2012)

Like I said earlier, I would not hesitate to run the new PPI or Soundstream gear. The PPI power class components and Art SQ subs have gotten rave reviews on this forum. I've actually got some serious wood for the new Soundstream Ref amps. Part of this harkens back to the "old days". I used to run 3 Class A 6.0's and loved those amps. New technology is a wonderfull thing, but to some of us it boils down to something else. 

Take for example a 2012 Z06 vette and a 1969 427 vette. The new one will outperform the old one in every way possible. Faster top speed, quicker in the 1/4, turn circles around it, ride better, and so on. The old one has a "feel" to it that the new one will never have. Sure, to 95% of the people out there the new one is better, but to some of us old farts, the old one has more appeal. Almost like it has a soul where the new one is just a tool. This might not be the best example to use with electronics, but to some people it does.

To each their own. 
I like new stuff, but I love old stuff.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

This needs to be moved to the dumb question forum. If you stop and do some searching this topic has been beat to death.

There are probably 100+ threads on here on this same exact topic. Every time someone new get on here this question eventually comes up.

Search for forum, it is a tool that is provided so that people do not have to keep making the same threads over and over.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Mods need to delete this thread and the search function needs to be used.


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## xtremevette (Apr 14, 2011)

Genxx said:


> This needs to be moved to the dumb question forum. If you stop and do some searching this topic has been beat to death.
> 
> There are probably 100+ threads on here on this same exact topic. Every time someone new get on here this question eventually comes up.
> 
> ...


I actually hate it when you jump on a forum and this the broadbase answer. I swear some just answer it this way without even looking at the post/thread. They just see the title and jump to conclusions. Your search appears to be working much better then mine...I haven't pulled up any thread that actually deals with what I mentioned and am talking about...now if your referring to the comparison of old school PPI vs new school PPI...yes a million of those threads...I could care less...Iam questioning the new school PPI stuff and how it stacks up since Epsilon took over. For that I have started to get some people chiming in and I thank them for it.

Maybe it was so long ago that it was beaten to death..but I didn't pull up anything on the first page of results.

Tried:

PPI 2012
PPI new stuff
PPI of today
PPI amps review (not phantom or black ice)
PPI testing new

Naddddddddaaaaaaa


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## emrliquidlife (Jan 19, 2008)

SaturnSL1 said:


> PPI won't ever be what it used to.


Which amp is this? Dare I say PC series?


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

It's a Lanzar Plus 200 supposedly made by PPI back in 91-92


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

Well, I'm a liar. I said I wouldn't trade my Legacy amps for anything...

I traded my Legacy LA420 Series 2 for a PPI PC450 about 20 minutes ago.

Feels good to be a boss.


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## donnieL72 (Jun 20, 2012)

Before I got the soundstreams, I had a Opti+ 160 4 channel and Opti+150 2 channel. Surprisingly good amps. They were 1993 or 94 models. Kind of blueish purpleish in color.


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## xtremevette (Apr 14, 2011)

SaturnSL1 said:


> Well, I'm a liar. I said I wouldn't trade my Legacy amps for anything...
> 
> I traded my Legacy LA420 Series 2 for a PPI PC450 about 20 minutes ago.
> 
> Feels good to be a boss.


Ok so can you report back an honest review once you get it in. We would love to see a review on it.


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## xtremevette (Apr 14, 2011)

Ok here is a little twist...not sure if Iam interpreting this right...but I asked the tech support over at Epsilon/PPI/Soundstream what the stereo separation was on the Reference 5.1000. I compared it and used reference to the PPI PC740.5.

_*From me:*_


> Hello, I was wondering if you could tell me what the stereo/channel separation is on the Soundstream Reference Ref 5.1000 amplifier.
> 
> Iam comparing this model to that of the PPI PC740.5 which I understand your parent company owns as well. (the PPI is saying 74db stereo separation).
> 
> ...


_*and I was told by Soundstream this:*_


> _*"It should be the same, we only changed the boards and how they are mounted in the Amps.*_
> 
> Chuck Kenney-National Sales Manager
> 214-587-7603-Cell
> ...


So??????does that mean that the SS Ref 5.1000 and PPI PC740.5 are the same internal amps with just different features and cases? Regardless of the power specs they are both 100amp rating amplifiers...hmmmmmmmm interesting if true.

_*UPDATE!!!! Confirmed both amps are basically the same!*_


> From me: Thanks Chuck for the fast response back! Not sure if you saw the other part of my question. Would you say both amps are about equal or would you rate one over the other as far as sound quality goes? or is my question redundant as you mentioned something about the boards being the same but just mounted differently?
> 
> Thanks
> Jeff


_*From Soundstream:*_


> Take your pick, basically the same AMP.
> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

xtremevette said:


> Ok so can you report back an honest review once you get it in. We would love to see a review on it.


Sure thing. Didn't come with the plugs so I'm going to have to rig it for testing purposes.

I honestly don't expect much from it other than clean power. As long as it works I'm happy.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

xtremevette said:


> Ok here is a little twist...not sure if Iam interpreting this right...but I asked the tech support over at Epsilon/PPI/Soundstream what the stereo separation was on the Reference 5.1000. I compared it and used reference to the PPI PC740.5.
> 
> _*From me:*_
> 
> ...


Chuck needs to have a talk with the engineers! First off how can they possibly be the same boards? Hell.....Just look at how the connections are?????? NO, its impossible! Are they closely spec'd? Yes, does that equal the same? NO There are actually a few legit differences (better or worse? depends on the beholder)......Chuck should have lost his job....Not Grizz!

Again, this too has been covered on several other threads.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

xtremevette said:


> I actually hate it when you jump on a forum and this the broadbase answer. I swear some just answer it this way without even looking at the post/thread. They just see the title and jump to conclusions. Your search appears to be working much better then mine...I haven't pulled up any thread that actually deals with what I mentioned and am talking about...now if your referring to the comparison of old school PPI vs new school PPI...yes a million of those threads...I could care less...Iam questioning the new school PPI stuff and how it stacks up since Epsilon took over. For that I have started to get some people chiming in and I thank them for it.
> 
> Maybe it was so long ago that it was beaten to death..but I didn't pull up anything on the first page of results.
> 
> ...



Well they are all related! IF you read those threads you did find, you would see that ALL of this and then some have already been beaten to death.....several times over. The info is already out there......So far this thread is tame...I like to think that either people have actually been educated or just sick of it?

You have to realize (if you read the threads or involved in them) we are all just happy they are quietly resting....no one wants to see or deal with the same old BS.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

SaturnSL1 said:


> Brock, you'll never understand it. Us old school guys are just nut jobs
> 
> There is no reason that I should spend all this money on old amps and subs when I could get new gear that puts out more power and is more efficient. I just do. When I see old school gear I see more than some amps and speakers, I see history. I see it and I want to keep it alive.
> 
> It's just pure insanity


Thats not insanity! Thats appreciation! Respect! I find it admirable and refreshing......I am VERY guilty of the same thing as are MANY of us on here. Had some amazing products from back in the day and with them, some great memories! Who wouldnt want to hold onto them if they could (and they can be!)

I just hope people stop attempting to compare. Its not a fair, reasonable, or intelligent to do so. Not to say one is better then the other because you can split pro's and con's down the board pretty well between the two, in my book anyway.....Again.....market dictates EVERYTHING! To me thats the soul reason why things are the way they are and that doesnt equal bad either....or doesnt have too.....You can get just as good a quality sound now for a lot less (watt to dollar) then ever before.... Build quality? Sure...for the most part its no comparison old school were rocks...but again, thats not the market. Cheaper and easier to buy a new one then fix an old one (for the general public.....again market doesnt mean diyma or sq arenas). Most everything is that way now (again general market)....If you want something more like the old days.....sure it can still be had...its just at a premium....and if ppi were still doing there thing as they were....and survived this long, it too would be at a VERY hefty premium.........its really really simple.

(used to be a big time Mcintosh collecter....had about 15+ at one point  Sucker for the old blue glass  I hear ya!!!!!!


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## jimboman (Jun 24, 2008)

I may just fit into the "bandwagon bashers" catagory, but wasn't there a post a while back where someone was showing his new Soundtream Ref internals, and most of the capacitors were leaking? To me it seams like some of the new stuff is built cheaply with low grade componenets.


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## BumpaD_Z28 (Dec 12, 2011)

I love and use OLD PPI 










... I wish new equipment would make me smile like the old stuff does 

~DaVe


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

Nice amp


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

jimboman said:


> I may just fit into the "bandwagon bashers" catagory, but wasn't there a post a while back where someone was showing his new Soundtream Ref internals, and most of the capacitors were leaking? To me it seams like some of the new stuff is built cheaply with low grade componenets.


Doesnt anyone remember the old school smokestream.....I mean soundstream!

You dont think mistakes can't happen? Especially since the market is a lot more global and lots more are being produced? Simple law of averages with error's. 
Alpine, JL, Audison, etc.....none of them are free from error either. You hear about those things all the time too. Plus you also need to take into account all the other variables we now have to concern our selves with......Where are you purchasing from? SO many grey market companies out there and refurbs that may not necessarily be authorized refurbs....BIG difference! I personally dont mind refurbs at all if they are from the factory. I figure they work out anything else while there in there? 
Epsilon's failure rates are actually some of the lowest in the business (fwiw).

Dont get me wrong...... Craftsmanship of old vs. new? Not even close. Old wins by a HUGE margin! Back then, they could! This is a throw away world now....Its just they way the market is... Technology? Edge has to go to new....... Bang for buck? without question....by a LONG shot....New wins everytime! Think about some of the features alone that are on some amps today? You would need two or three inline pieces added into an old amp setup to do what some of the new ones do? Granted not all of them are great.....but a lot of them are, and if you need them or know how to implement them.....its great to have!

People read and remember what they want to. No different then news or politics...... etc......and we all do it!


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## xtremevette (Apr 14, 2011)

jimboman said:


> I may just fit into the "bandwagon bashers" catagory, but wasn't there a post a while back where someone was showing his new Soundtream Ref internals, and most of the capacitors were leaking? To me it seams like some of the new stuff is built cheaply with low grade componenets.


Well who knows, might have just been one that had a bad quality control on it. This is what extended warrantees are for if you buy something of a high dollar amount. Today with the way the economy is and how everything is built or made overseas quality has suffered everywhere. Especially in electronics. No way around it. Times have changed. My dad has been a tv repair guy for over 40 years and tvs have gotten so bad quality wise it makes him sick. Manufacturers call a tv on the outside one brand but inside it is another brand and most of the time they cant even be repaired cause nobody makes replacement parts to them. You end up throwing the thing out and getting another one. Welcome to 2012.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

BumpaD_Z28 said:


> I love and use OLD PPI
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'd smile more if you took that hideous Camaro badge off of the amp. Oy...


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

donnieL72 said:


> I know what you're saying. The old amps had a build quality to them that most new amps can't touch. Most of these new amps look and feel the same. Back then, amps had more style to them. I've read many times on this forum that today power is cheap. Most of the time it feels like it. Take an amp that cost $500 back in 1995 and compare it to an amp made today. That amp would probably cost you double if not more in today's money. You just don't get that feeling in your stomach about you newly delivered toy you used to.


You can't compare a $500 amp from 1995 to a $500 amp today, but you can compare it to a $1000-$1200 dollar amp today with inflation. 
Now comparing that $500 PPI amp to a $1000 Mac or Brax Ill take the newer amp over the old one.


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## jimboman (Jun 24, 2008)

rexroadj said:


> Dont get me wrong...... Craftsmanship of old vs. new? Not even close. Old wins by a HUGE margin! Back then, they could! This is a throw away world now....Its just they way the market is... Technology? Edge has to go to new....... Bang for buck? without question....by a LONG shot....New wins everytime! Think about some of the features alone that are on some amps today? You would need two or three inline pieces added into an old amp setup to do what some of the new ones do? Granted not all of them are great.....but a lot of them are, and if you need them or know how to implement them.....its great to have!
> 
> People read and remember what they want to. No different then news or politics...... etc......and we all do it!


Very true.


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## donnieL72 (Jun 20, 2012)

chefhow said:


> You can't compare a $500 amp from 1995 to a $500 amp today, but you can compare it to a $1000-$1200 dollar amp today with inflation.
> Now comparing that $500 PPI amp to a $1000 Mac or Brax Ill take the newer amp over the old one.


Very good point.


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

So many things I want to say and people I want to quote, I just don't have the time right now to do so, so here it is in a nutshell.

I am an "Old school" collector and like a lot of the OS items better then todays. 

Amps have come a long way in the last 15 years so to say they haven't changed much is an understatement. Class D is not the same as a Class A, and so on and so on. Yes smaller, and more efficient they are, for the reasons of "brakethroughs" in technology advancement. To me, that's the same as saying every amp IS the same. Not true. Their end goal/objective is the same. 

I was bashed a while back posting a similar question about OS vs NS and their technology advancement. Moore's law states this advancement and shares some of these characteristics. 

Power, just like any new technology, gets cheaper over time. HDTV's area prime example. A 50" 1080p when they first came out would cost you over $2000. Today you cane get a similar 50" 1080p for ~$700. They way I estimate it is 10:1
Today you can get 10 watts for the same price as yesteryears 1 watt. 
A good, true 1000 watt amp today costs ($400) what a good, true 100 watt amp did in '96. 

I have to leave for now, but I will try to get back on later. Today is my birthday, so my festivities begin.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

smgreen20 said:


> So many things I want to say and people I want to quote, I just don't have the time right now to do so, so here it is in a nutshell.
> 
> I am an "Old school" collector and like a lot of the OS items better then todays.
> 
> ...


Happy Birthday!!!!!

When you respond later.....if your going to compare old vs. new keep it fair and not compare class A (car audio??? will just call it a/b for the sake of fairness/etc) and class D. They both have pro's and cons. Advancements dont have to mean changes in classes.......All designs have profited in a lot of ways due to time. Doesnt take away anything from the old....or make them less viable (in my mind anyway).....just mute to compare them imo.....


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

The old stuff is just absolute crap.
Do not for any reason spend your money on it. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> The old stuff is just absolute crap.
> Do not for any reason spend your money on it.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Yup! I dont miss or regret selling off my substantial Mcintosh collection one bit :cussing:


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

SaturnSL1 said:


> PPI won't ever be what it used to.


I am not an electrical engineer, but I think the obsession with amplifier pictures is quite irrational. I can take a picture of my Jensen Power (new cheap stuff) amplifier, and it will look just like the more expensive amps inside. What difference do component colors make?


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

The current power class series amps look pretty much just like the old ones from 10 years ago. There are tests reviews that show that PPI Power Class a clean, honest to god, good amplifier designs (if you use google translate):

http://www.avtozvuk.com/az/2011/10/050-ppi.htm

The new PPI Phantom Class D and Black Ice A/B amplifiers are probably the leaders when it comes for bang per buck, mid-fi amps.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

ZAKOH said:


> I am not an electrical engineer, but I think the obsession with amplifier pictures is quite irrational. I can take a picture of my Jensen Power (new cheap stuff) amplifier, and it will look just like the more expensive amps inside. What difference do component colors make?


As an engineer you should be able to see, and appreciate, attention to detail.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

ZAKOH said:


> I am not an electrical engineer, but I think the obsession with amplifier pictures is quite irrational. I can take a picture of my Jensen Power (new cheap stuff) amplifier, and it will look just like the more expensive amps inside. What difference do component colors make?


I'm not an electrical engineer either but when I look at an amplifier like the one above I can gather that it was made a lot better than this one.










These pictures aren't posted because we are all obsessed with electrical components. I'd like to think these pictures will maybe help someone understand what a good and a bad amplifier looks like.


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## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

Also, component colors sometimes tell a lot about an amplifier. If these capacitors didn't have names and values on them, which ones would you think are better? Brown or gold?


















Disregard the fact that the brown are burst... Tells you how good Chinese crap really is, the amp is less than 5 years old. The amp with the gold caps is about 10 years old.


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## BumpaD_Z28 (Dec 12, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> I'd smile more if you took that hideous Camaro badge off of the amp. Oy...


To each thier own ! 

I'm sorry that you're driving something ****ty


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## SilkySlim (Oct 24, 2012)

Just look at the last part of the name on the top amps cap it says it all. Dung.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

BumpaD_Z28 said:


> To each thier own !
> 
> I'm sorry that you're driving something ****ty


So a Camaro ISN'T ****ty? Really?


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## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

I for one, would like everyone to keep buying new gear. This keeps the market rolling and the think tanks thinking. The more new purchased, the better chances I'll get some OS gear for cheap. My small collection of PPI (2 arts/ 2 ams) is up there now at $385. The cost on new gear I have bought 3-4k. Thinking about everything I did buy new - the only piece of gear in my car would be the JBL tweeters I am running. Why amp I not using the "new" amp to run my fronts? Noisefloor, issues with switches, alt whine - which is why time after time - these beat up PPI amps always rise to the top. To the original question - I've never tried anything PPI made after 1992


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

Sine Swept said:


> I for one, would like everyone to keep buying new gear. This keeps the market rolling and the think tanks thinking. The more new purchased, the better chances I'll get some OS gear for cheap. My small collection of PPI (2 arts/ 2 ams) is up there now at $385. The cost on new gear I have bought 3-4k. Thinking about everything I did buy new - the only piece of gear in my car would be the JBL tweeters I am running. Why amp I not using the "new" amp to run my fronts? Noisefloor, issues with switches, alt whine - which is why time after time - these beat up PPI amps always rise to the top. To the original question - I've never tried anything PPI made after 1992


Are you kidding me??????? WOW....congrats!!!! You officially have the MOST ignorant comments I have ever witnessed in my life! Lets do it this way to prove the point.....Read the VERY last thing you wrote......then re-read the rest of your post.....REALLY???? REALLY?????????? 
OS ppi and other are/were great! Better then new...especially given your "reasoning" (lets just take out the completely ridiculous contradictory statement at the end) absolutely not! Newer amps have a higher noise floor? Proof please! And I'm sorry....when did ALT whine have to do with the amp....its called Alt whine....not amp whine! Fix your wiring! Maybe new amps are more sensitive to proper installation (who needs to weld with an amp????)...is that a fault or a good safety device? Problems with "switches"......WHAT??????? Seriously....this does not help the cause for those that still are ignorant enough to try to argue for old vs. new..... 
WOW! Thank you for the chuckle/frightening read!
Holy ****!


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## Tobtech (Oct 23, 2012)

I lost all interest in new PPI when I saw a crappy flip-out DVD head unit for sale on CL with Precision Power silkscreened on it, uuug, I just threw up a little in my mouth:jester:


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

And the brilliance continues.......Seriously do people get together every so many months to go over the same idiocracy without any backing to prove it.....and they even acknowledge they have no experience etc.......Just DUMB!


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## Tobtech (Oct 23, 2012)

rexroadj said:


> And the brilliance continues.......Seriously do people get together every so many months to go over the same idiocracy without any backing to prove it.....and they even acknowledge they have no experience etc.......Just DUMB!


I worked at Directed Electronics when they purchased ADST (aka, Orion, PPI, ADS), does that count as experience?


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

NO! Have you used CURRENT PPI......your statement about a F'ing picture (on craigslist no less)is about as dumb as it gets! Had you started off saying you worked for X manufacturer etc...and given some actual reasoning? Sure...different conversation. Unfortunately though you did not.....therefore (mostly based on the first idiotic statement) your credibility went out the window! Also there are TONS of jobs at Directed.....few of them actually have anything to do with the ACTUAL production/design/etc....so no either way.....that likely still doesnt help! 
We can keep going round and round on this as has been done countless times on other threads but the same result will happen.... You (others) cant come up with any real viable information/FACTS to put old over new! Instead we just get flooded with ignorant and thoughtless/factless/baseless statements over, and over. News flash guys.....the horse is DEAD.....You beat the ****er senseless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BumpaD_Z28 (Dec 12, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> So a Camaro ISN'T ****ty? Really?


NOPE !  ... especially if it's being compared to some 7th generation "beetle" Wanna race ?
(p.s. I'm just joking with you via the Internet, sometimes "Ha Ha" doesn't convey well in type)

Back on Topic Q:

Which CURRENT PPI offering is the comparable to my PC450 or A400.2 4 channel(s) ?

I'd like to give one an honest audition sometime !

~DaVe


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## mkeets (Oct 6, 2011)

BumpaD_Z28 said:


> NOPE !  ... especially if it's being compared to some 7th generation "beetle" Wanna race ?
> (p.s. I'm just joking with you via the Internet, sometimes "Ha Ha" doesn't convey well in type)
> 
> Back on Topic Q:
> ...


The current Power Class is PPI's "top of the line" amp AFAIK so I'd say one of the 4-channels from the new PC line would be your best bet.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

BumpaD_Z28 said:


> NOPE !  ... especially if it's being compared to some 7th generation "beetle" Wanna race ?
> (p.s. I'm just joking with you via the Internet, sometimes "Ha Ha" doesn't convey well in type)
> 
> Back on Topic Q:
> ...


I know. I am too.


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

Interesting thread, good laugh for sure. I think part of the problem is "the consumer" has an automatic bias or makes an automatic assumption when a company sells out to another company to automatically discredit them as of "less quality" until proven otherwise. This is probably because so many car audio manufacturers have been down this exact road. We build a relationship or a reliance with a product and we base that on it's stability and reputation as a company. The reputation of PPI has started over from scratch and must work itself up from the bottom versus the top, unfortunately. It must reprove itself all over again. I know, I was in a search for an amp recently and looked at hifonics, mbquart, PPI. My first thought is man these are cheap(r) amps compared to the OS stuff. I found out they had sold out so I made the assumption as to I don't want to take that chance and went with Alpine. All the while the PPI may be better than anything else out there. I just don't know that.


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

RNBRAD said:


> Interesting thread, good laugh for sure. I think part of the problem is "the consumer" has an automatic bias or makes an automatic assumption when a company sells out to another company to automatically discredit them as of "less quality" until proven otherwise. This is probably because so many car audio manufacturers have been down this exact road. We build a relationship or a reliance with a product and we base that on it's stability and reputation as a company. The reputation of PPI has started over from scratch and must work itself up from the bottom versus the top, unfortunately. It must reprove itself all over again. I know, I was in a search for an amp recently and looked at hifonics, mbquart, PPI. My first thought is man these are cheap(r) amps compared to the OS stuff. I found out they had sold out so I made the assumption as to I don't want to take that chance and went with Alpine. All the while the PPI may be better than anything else out there. I just don't know that.


Valid! 
Now here is where most things go out of control! MOST dont do any research....its not the original and it sucks and people LOVE to talk but then you find out (usually because people are dumb enough to just come out and say it....WOW). Its really as simple as the book by a cover theory!
Its fair to not want to be a guinea pig! I can appreciate that for sure!
What most fail to understand, and honestly it becomes about business. People just dont understand the point of what USUALLY happens with all that and why. Companies dont buy a company to trash it! More often then not they buy the technology and either build from it or try to make it more marketable (its about making money) and if it was for sale they (the first company) probably wasnt doing something right and losing money. These companies are trying to make things fit a market. The market is not what it used to be. We as a forum are less then 1% of the market.... people love to forget that. There are MORE then enough niche companies to build amps like the old....its a TINY market. There is a lot more involved but people need to understand that the market creates all.......And its not all bad... we are getting a lot of great products with great features for a GREAT price! People (not you) need to learn to cast there ignorance aside and allow education to the new audio world. Embrace it, dont chastise it! There is a lot of great to be had if you allow it!!!


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## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sine Swept 
I for one, would like everyone to keep buying new gear. This keeps the market rolling and the think tanks thinking. The more new purchased, the better chances I'll get some OS gear for cheap. My small collection of PPI (2 arts/ 2 ams) is up there now at $385. The cost on new gear I have bought 3-4k. Thinking about everything I did buy new - the only piece of gear in my car would be the JBL tweeters I am running. Why amp I not using the "new" amp to run my fronts? Noisefloor, issues with switches, alt whine - which is why time after time - these beat up PPI amps always rise to the top. To the original question - I've never tried anything PPI made after 1992
Are you kidding me??????? WOW....congrats!!!! You officially have the MOST ignorant comments I have ever witnessed in my life! Lets do it this way to prove the point.....Read the VERY last thing you wrote......then re-read the rest of your post.....REALLY???? REALLY?????????? 
OS ppi and other are/were great! Better then new...especially given your "reasoning" (lets just take out the completely ridiculous contradictory statement at the end) absolutely not! Newer amps have a higher noise floor? Proof please! And I'm sorry....when did alt whine have to do with the amp....its called alt whine....not amp whine! Fix your wiring! Maybe new amps are more sensitive to proper installation (who needs to weld with an amp????)...is that a fault or a good safety device? Problems with "switches"......WHAT??????? Seriously....this does not help the cause for those that still are ignorant enough to try to argue for old vs. new..... 
WOW! Thank you for the chuckle/frightening read!
Holy ****!


I found the source of my whine ^^^


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## RNBRAD (Oct 30, 2012)

rexroadj said:


> Valid!
> Now here is where most things go out of control! MOST dont do any research....its not the original and it sucks and people LOVE to talk but then you find out (usually because people are dumb enough to just come out and say it....WOW). Its really as simple as the book by a cover theory!
> Its fair to not want to be a guinea pig! I can appreciate that for sure!
> What most fail to understand, and honestly it becomes about business. People just dont understand the point of what USUALLY happens with all that and why. Companies dont buy a company to trash it! More often then not they buy the technology and either build from it or try to make it more marketable (its about making money) and if it was for sale they (the first company) probably wasnt doing something right and losing money. These companies are trying to make things fit a market. The market is not what it used to be. We as a forum are less then 1% of the market.... people love to forget that. There are MORE then enough niche companies to build amps like the old....its a TINY market. There is a lot more involved but people need to understand that the market creates all.......And its not all bad... we are getting a lot of great products with great features for a GREAT price! People (not you) need to learn to cast there ignorance aside and allow education to the new audio world. Embrace it, dont chastise it! There is a lot of great to be had if you allow it!!!


I agree. Most people don't like change and it's automatically bad however you slice it. The problem here is researching a new product, someone has to jump out and bite the bullet by purchasing the new or changed product and then sharing that review of the product(s). Then we as consumers have to evaluate this source or sources as creditable or not and weigh the risk from there. All in all this takes time, often many years to create or dispell any mistruths and create a new marque/view/history/foundation/brand etc. It's really like that in any market with any product. To advocate consumers, we/they are also fed up with junk on the market, many having good histories that turned to a less than desirable product. Happens unfortunately, but yes some good research (if one can find it) could dispel or corroborate any misinformation. Problem with boards like this is people throw opinions out that are totally baseless with absolutely no experience to back any of it up. Hopefully people here can discern as to who they can trust and who is just spewing baseless misinformation. But totally understand your logic.


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

I have a whole crap load of old school PPI amps. Some of them kinda on the rare side. But, I can't honestly make the claim that they are any better than the current new stuff. I can say that the older PPI amps have more visual appeal but, that's subjective and entirely opinion based. Everyone has different tastes. Example: I don't like the looks of the White Art Series amps even though I know them to be stellar performers. But, show me the same amp in that baddass black with blood red script and I'm alot more interested. 

The new PPI stuff has been tested and proven to perform as claimed. We've all seen the guts shots and the amps are well laid out. Plenty have installed and actually listened to the amps and they sound good. What else is left??? 
Sure, they don't have "Made In the USA" on them but, not many do nowadays. Old equipment has a certain nostalgia feel to it I agree but, you will never be able to prove to me that a 20 year old amplifier sounds considerably better than a brand new one with similiar components. 
The advent of full range class D has changed car audio in a huge way. Better efficency, less heat, lower current drain and no trade-off in audio quality, all in a compact package is very appealing when compared to huge, clunky old a/b amps. And I am certain it will only get better.
Right now, old school nostalgia is still hanging on. Somewhat due to baseless comparisons to new versions of older equipment. Watts are watts, whether they are produced by a 20 year old amp or a brand new one.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

PPI_GUY said:


> I have a whole crap load of old school PPI amps. Some of them kinda on the rare side. But, I can't honestly make the claim that they are any better than the current new stuff. I can say that the older PPI amps have more visual appeal but, that's subjective and entirely opinion based. Everyone has different tastes. *Example: I don't like the looks of the White Art Series amps even though I know them to be stellar performers. *But, show me the same amp in that baddass black with blood red script and I'm alot more interested.
> 
> The new PPI stuff has been tested and proven to perform as claimed. We've all seen the guts shots and the amps are well laid out. Plenty have installed and actually listened to the amps and they sound good. What else is left???
> Sure, they don't have "Made In the USA" on them but, not many do nowadays. Old equipment has a certain nostalgia feel to it I agree but, you will never be able to prove to me that a 20 year old amplifier sounds considerably better than a brand new one with similiar components.
> ...


There's just something wrong with you.......no two ways around it. 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Danometal (Nov 16, 2009)

My $.02

I helped my cousin-in-law build a system for his Lexus running Polk speakers active with PPI Black Ice amps (BK800.4 & BK1300.1). These amp are absolutely AMAZING. So much clean power for not so many dollars. The 4 channel being able to bandpass his mids and cross his tweeters @ 4K for this little money, with this much power, sounding this clean, looking this sick... without exception stands alone as being the absolute very best 4 channel on the market for < $200 IMHO. I wouldn't care if they were made by the Taliban. 

If I hadn't already bought Boston GTA amps and an analog crossover I would buy PPI without the slightest hesitation (I would anyway were it not for having to explain to my wife why I should own 2 sets of amps).


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> There's just something wrong with you.......no two ways around it.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Now Bret, you know I'm right. :thumbsup:


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

PPI_GUY said:


> Now Bret, you know I'm right. :thumbsup:


Sorry, 
Love ya Bret.......But I have to agree with him  Incredible amps............On the inside


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

PPI_GUY said:


> Now Bret, you know I'm right. :thumbsup:





rexroadj said:


> Sorry,
> Love ya Bret.......But I have to agree with him  Incredible amps............On the inside


Wow tough crowd! 

Tell you what.
Let me get them all installed properly in their natural habitat using their factory trim components and see if your impressions on them can't be turned. 
Fair enough?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Wow tough crowd!
> 
> Tell you what.
> Let me get them all installed properly in their natural habitat using their factory trim components and see if your impressions on them can't be turned.
> ...


Your gonna put them in an a Pink "Mary Kay" caddie? 

:laugh:


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

rexroadj said:


> Your gonna put them in an a Pink "Mary Kay" caddie?
> 
> :laugh:


Blow me. :cwm8:


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Blow me. :cwm8:
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Hahahahaha! Sorry buddy! I know its a sensitive subject for you


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## SilkySlim (Oct 24, 2012)

There is a lot of passion and feeling here on this thread. Having been in the industry and then away from it looking in it is very interesting to see the change. I understand the passion for great sound I also understand the passion for a business and the people who work in it to make money. I also find myself having spent way to much money over the years coveting the next great improvement in sound. There isn't as much loyalty as there is an expectation of performance.
The market has drastically changed over the years and businesses die if they don't respond to the market they die. Just an outsider looking in the most not all companies still around there has been a focus on smaller, more efficient, race to lowest price, convinence, compressed music and integration to factory systems. Not bad things. Factory systems have improved and are such a integral part of the car that they have forced the consumer with limited options. 
Now I contrast that with the old school direction. Freedom to design what they want. Audio and video in the vehicle was an after thought at best from the factory. So you could design what you want relatively easily. The guiding principles of home and car audio was the best 2ch experience possible. The left overs of the heyday of high-end audio 70's & 80's. The audiophile was older had experienced great audio at home and companies formed to say you can now have that experience in the car. Most companies exploded on to the amp and speaker scene your Ppi, HiFonics, etc. the market was driving a wave of the best sound possible iasca competitions that were very popular and local. It wasn't all about cost it was more about performing better at these sq competitions and cleaner specs. These seemed to drive the product design so you had more conservative ratings because if you didn't your product was exposed at these events and around town. 
The companies like we're cheaper and good at marketing, boss, pyramid, and mostly looked at as junk ended up buying many brands that had the legacy of great performance ended up being purchased by these companies. Competitions became out of hand for average kids and adults to compete in and popularity dropped. Compressed music became big on the scene and that doesn't show off the value of better sounding equipment. The higher end products don't move then they have to sell and their biggest asset is their reputation. 

That change in the market changed everything. There was a major shift in product design to convenience, and efficiency and that doesn't always translate into better sound quality but it has allowed more people to enjoy their music anywhere when they want. Now is the sound better than old? 

I read comments like watts are watts? Really? So a marketer can say xxx.x watts and so the only difference in amps is the size, shape and color of the case? I guess the only other difference is install convinence. No other reason to buy a new one.

I have heard and calibrated thousands of different models, price ranges, and brands of amps in home, car, and commercial, and there are plenty of differences between watts for sound quality and loudness. 

Now I was very disappointed when I decided to get back into car audio and update my car system. I bought brand new amps from a old school company that wasn't sold and I was sooooooo disappointed in the sound. I was told all the line better tolerances on components, more efficient, smaller chassis etc. It was smaller and more efficient. It could not compete in sound quality. I stuck in an school amps from my car audio days and it wasn't even close. I then spent to much money and way to much time comparing and analyzing amps on reference level home speakers for my build. I tested my favorite old school and many new amp brands and models. Some new were good but so many were disappointing. There were few new amps that could compare. 

I do like the direction of the new sound processors this gives you many different options for calibration. Calibrated properly these can make a huge difference no matter what amps and speakers you use.

The reason I'm even spending time responding is I see a small trend with forums like this starting to focus on quality and SQ. I am excited I hope that there are enough to drive a market so the manufactures will take notice and can make money on SQ and performance that will give us many more options to enjoy better sound. 

Just stop taking things personal listen and see what you like buy it. There are advantages and drawbacks to every setup see what you need and design accordingly. If you need loud, smaller, more efficient, and install flexibility there are some good brand new choices out there. If you are after best quality sound there are some old school amps that give the best of the new all they can handle. 

I am waiting to try some of the newest ppi amps. They are one new company I have my eye on they seem to be moving in the right direction. I loved the old art and was impressed with the value of the Sedona stuff back in OS days. A good art series amp is hard to beat the bar is high but can be done. 

My 2 cents. I just love good music!


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

SilkySlim said:


> There is a lot of passion and feeling here on this thread. Having been in the industry and then away from it looking in it is very interesting to see the change. I understand the passion for great sound I also understand the passion for a business and the people who work in it to make money. I also find myself having spent way to much money over the years coveting the next great improvement in sound. There isn't as much loyalty as there is an expectation of performance.
> The market has drastically changed over the years and businesses die if they don't respond to the market they die. Just an outsider looking in the most not all companies still around there has been a focus on smaller, more efficient, race to lowest price, convinence, compressed music and integration to factory systems. Not bad things. Factory systems have improved and are such a integral part of the car that they have forced the consumer with limited options. The race.........To a degree, Absolutely!...When your in a rush sometimes you dont get time to think in order to "catch up" and thats what a lot of companies had to do to stay with the super fast market. Those that didnt......DIED. Which you touched on with complete accuracy!
> Now I contrast that with the old school direction. Freedom to design what they want. Audio and video in the vehicle was an after thought at best from the factory. So you could design what you want relatively easily. The guiding principles of home and car audio was the best 2ch experience possible. The left overs of the heyday of high-end audio 70's & 80's. The audiophile was older had experienced great audio at home and companies formed to say you can now have that experience in the car. Most companies exploded on to the amp and speaker scene your Ppi, HiFonics, etc. the market was driving a wave of the best sound possible iasca competitions that were very popular and local. It wasn't all about cost it was more about performing better at these sq competitions and cleaner specs. I think they all went together. They could ask prime $$$$ and therefore invest prime $$$$ because it was a hot audio market. Everything was essentially new....remember every monthly magazine and waiting to see some new product from brand X.....it was just PRIME TIME!!!! And it was AWESOME!!! IMO Business is all about justification. You need to be able to justify investment for any sort of greater good....At the time, the justification was SO easy! The sudden change of the market....and think about it, it was super sudden, is what made businesses either sell, close, or try to play rapid catch up to adaptThese seemed to drive the product design so you had more conservative ratings because if you didn't your product was exposed at these events and around town. that and the $ per watt justification, but yes!
> The companies like we're cheaper and good at marketing, boss, pyramid, and mostly looked at as junk ended up buying many brands that had the legacy of great performance ended up being purchased by these companies.I dont think its quite that simple/fair. These companies had budgets because the played the markets accurately for the long term and thus built great capitol. Had nothing to do with marketing...how many Pyramid ads did you see in magazines or shows? I cant recall any....but I remember all the orion, kicker, mtx, ppi, soundstream, etc......... These other companies that had to sell may have had the best talent as far as engineers go, (this is something I have had to deal with on many levels and it gets VERY frustrating) but when it comes to reading the market decline or progression, they had the vision of Ray Charles......They can sound amazing but cant see for **** (sorry Ray, RIP)There is a HUGE difference and its one that the "adoring" public just has a horrible time grasping. And for the record...pyramid and the others really didnt do anything either.....some parent companies may have done some.....But I do know and appreciate what you mean! Competitions became out of hand for average kids and adults to compete in and popularity dropped.That market killed itself with the "race for the best" and again, that had a cost! Perhaps people should blame the marketing of those companies Compressed music became big on the scene and that doesn't show off the value of better sounding equipment.Thats for damn sure! Its just tough  but convenience is king right now I guess? I know I'm guilty in a lot of ways  The higher end products don't move then they have to sell and their biggest asset is their reputation. They're just lucky they have at least that!!! LOL
> ...


Ditto on the music!!!! And appreciate and agree with your 2 cents! Thanks for sharing! Good luck in your search! I promise good quality can still be had out there. Maybe it shares the same familiar names....maybe it doesnt? But its still out there  

All the best,


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

rexroadj said:


> Ditto on the music!!!! And appreciate and agree with your 2 cents! Thanks for sharing! Good luck in your search! I promise good quality can still be had out there. Maybe it shares the same familiar names....maybe it doesnt? But its still out there
> 
> All the best,


Ray Charles died? 


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## nico10 (Aug 6, 2013)

have always been a fan of ppi's am still giving them a try after decades of being absent from the audio scene... let's see how it goes.. got a pc1000 on the way.. it's really hard to look for this thing...


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## underdog (Jul 5, 2011)

"I could compare a 1925 Model T to a 2012 Mustang and conclude that the Model T is "junk," but what purpose would that serve?"

The 1925 Model T was built to stand the test of time.
Sturdy components that are serviceable.
The 2012 Mustang is built for maximum profit and is disposable.
Same goes for our Amplifiers.
What I see ?
People are driving small cars with small power.
The big old amps will not fit and there is insufficient power to move them.
So the evolution has been to maximize profits while being usable in todays vehicles.


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## michaeljsteffan80 (Aug 20, 2014)

SaturnSL1 said:


> Amplifiers haven't changed much, they are just getting smaller and more efficient. Amplifiers are a bit different than televisions and cars.
> 
> And hell, if were talking about cars, I'd take a nice Model T with a 350 over a 2012 Mustang any day. Once again, to me its about the feeling. Not so much the product.


yes smaller lighter, but more efficient? i dont know about that. seems like everything has gone down hill so badly. im with you theres no comparing old to new. back in the day when u picked up a good amp you knew there was a lot going on in there, simply because you could feel the weight of all the components. you also knew a lot of time and hard work went in to putting it there. and when you got that bad boy wired up...... you knew it was crank and push them speakers to their limit. Its sad but i find it so difficult to get excitement out of buying new tech. amp. guess ill just continue my never ending quest on ebay, c list, garage sales, and swap meets for that 12 pound dusty jewel that you pull from under a pile of old ac/dc power plug converters blow it off work a deal, then run home to to test and polish that bad boy up.


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