# The Quest is Over- Front Door Midbass on a Budget



## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

My quest is finally over for front stage midbass without spending gobs of cash in addition to the cash I already spent. 

I share my tale in hopes of helping others. 

Original problem-

Good sub (plays below 100 hz or so)
Front door has 6.5 components (originally Alpine SPR-60C)
upper door location of tweeters- nice for image- bad if your 6.5 woofers lack midbass.
Tweeters sound horrible when the crossover attenuator is set to avoid being too dominant (for some reason, SQ takes a big hit on the -4 or -6 db setting)
SPR woofers offered ZERO bass, when isolated, all HPFs set to off. No bass whatsoever- just a kind of humming. No wiring or other issues caused this. 

Attempt (1) 
After much research and discussion by helpful members on this site, I sealed the door panels as best as I could- caulk behind the speaker baffles, plexiglass and silicone sealer followed by a complete blanket of dynamat, and some nicked up fingers. 

This did help. But still, the tweeters were too dominant- whenever the sub was not being summoned by the program material (as is the case for lots of musical content) the front stage sounded extremely thin and basically like crap. Alpine should be ashamed of themselves for asking $280.00 retail for those speakers. Luckily I got them for 199. 
In previous threads people mentioned that component speakers are lacking bass because the manufacturer assumes you are going to use a subwoofer. While this might be true, it is a convenient way for them to use a cheap woofer to obtain a higher power rating assuming you are going to send amplified bass at frequencies above 80hz or so. The speakers are not up to snuff, in essence they suck. My system had a huge hole in the sound from 80 to 200hz and it sounded like crap, with supposed "better" component speakers. 

Final solution- new woofers. Thanks again to this site as well as zaph audio, and other car audio forums. I love this stuff. 
The key to getting good midbass in your front stage, I have read and confirmed, is for them to possess the following key specifications (in addition to frequency response, low distortion and appropriate power rating)-

Qts- keep it low- .35 is nice, no higher than .5
Fs- close to 50, not above 100.

In my case, I also wanted higher SPL rating too, to help compete with the ear level advantage of the tweeter's output. 

So here is my woofer- installed yesterday

6.5" , 4-ohm, 
50Hz to 5Khz @ 91.5db sensitivity
80 watts power handling
Qts .4
Fs 37.5 hz

Silver Flute W17RC38-04. $29.80 each. 

Initial listening impressions- Mission accomplished. The full rich sound I was after is finally back (the original factory install achieved this with smoke and mirrors, but had no capability to play loudly).
I just love a rich warm sound, with clarity and volume capability of course. 
I am eagerly awaiting the final results after these babys break in a little in a week or so.


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## Mirage_Man (Jun 29, 2007)

Glad to hear you found a satisfying solution to this all to common issue.


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## rlee777 (Apr 28, 2009)

I am also on this type of quest -- budget 6.5 with good midbass, clear low-distortion mids (up to 2.5K) and ability to take at least 75w clean RMS.

The Silver Flute looks really interesting -- how high are you crossing these? How is the midrange clarity? I had thought that having a higher Qts is desirable in an IB setup like a car door....with such a low Qts (more ideal for vented box), are you getting decent extension? Down below 80Hz? Can the Silver Flute take power and maintain clarity?

Very interested in your setup....currently running Vifa 6.5s that lack grunt down low, but have nice mid clarity up to 2K.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

I have never heard of wanting a low Qts midbass to run in a door, I thought generally that does very poorly in door panel. I thought low qts only worked if you were running a enclosure of some type? I have heard good things about the silver flute, so if they work and are cheap that is great.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

rlee,
I am crossing the silver flutes at 3100 hz using the Apline's low pass coil filter and tweeters see above that using the alpine passive crossover. 

The head unit is set to 80hz HPF.

The mid bass is very good and they can play loudly. I had the HPF set to 63Hz and there was a noticeable gain in bass- actually too much so I set it back to 80hz.

As far as midrange clarity- the important thing is that I hear no audible distortion. I am not expecting midrange presence from these drivers because it is too difficult in their location on the bottom front corner of the door. The sound path is too obstructed and muffled by the seats, kick panels, feet / legs etc. 
I do tend to EQ for added midrange presence and believe it could stand to be improved from a speaker setup standpoint-
either by a separate midrange driver added to the door up high or by a new tweeter that can cross lower than 3100hz. Each of those solutions would take more work- e.g. new crossover network with adjustable l-pads, etc. 
Those might be projects for another day, but right now I am very pleased with the results and overall SQ.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Lower Qts mids do better in smaller enclosures than a typical IB / door. With a door mount, you want your mid as low and far forward as possible. Lower PLD down there. Don't worry about the 'obstructions'. I would cut the tweets at the xo by -4db _and_ cut the 1-3khz range from your eq.


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

I've been telling people about these for just over a year. That's what I've been running for almost two years. I would honestly put them against the hybrid audio L6's. I run mine in a sealed pod, off of 160 watts .


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

I wonder if SPR woofers were out of phase with each other.. I don't know about newer model, but older models offered decent midbass for the money.


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## Ianarian (Dec 20, 2010)

Wow, the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes is he? 

Do we discuss the parameters in a numbers game in attempt to sound technical with one another? Don't answer that...

My heart goes out to all those who have fell victim to a well played marketing strategy..


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

I didn't go by any numbers other then the frequency response and power handing.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

ZAKOH said:


> I wonder if SPR woofers were out of phase with each other.. I don't know about newer model, but older models offered decent midbass for the money.


zakoh,
the sprs were definitely in phase- double and triple checked. even the left and right isolated had zero bass.

the only thing I can think of is that they may have been partially "blown", possibly damaged by some high excursions but not completely blown in the usual sense, although I have never heard of that.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

Ianarian said:


> Wow, the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes is he?
> 
> Do we discuss the parameters in a numbers game in attempt to sound technical with one another? Don't answer that...
> 
> My heart goes out to all those who have fell victim to a well played marketing strategy..


I'm not sure what you mean by that. Which marketing strategy are you referring to- the audio engineer speaker tester / publisher blogger who has affiliation to a DIY online driver and hardware outlet- 
or the big name manufacturers that have a few good products and live mainly off of their name and the fact that a lot of their customers cannot tell the difference.


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## SACD_Guy (Oct 29, 2011)

This is a nice read as I am sure a lot of people like their mids and tweets but find it hard to play deep base musically at increased levels without spending major $$$. The extra dollars get you the materials and engineering that is really needed. Glad this worked out for you.


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

To believe these Flutes, you HAVE to hear for yourself. I have heard both a Hybrid Audio L6 in an SQ set up car and I run the Silver Flutes in my truck and they really do compare. The L6's are a bit better, but not by much at all and considering the price points of both, the Flutes win.

Cost doesn't always = better materials/performance.


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

Damn... stop giving me ideas.. I might just buy one before I have a chance to install and tune my set of HAT Imagine speakers. I have a HAT Imagine speaker that I need to install in one door (the other is already installed).


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## adrenalinejunkie (Oct 17, 2010)

Was there any improvement once the caulk was added behind the baffle? I was thinking of adding silacone or something, but wasn't sure if it was going to be a good idea nor knew what exact silacone to use. feedback would be great. glad ya found your solution, i know the feeling of trying to figure something out and it sucks.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

adrenalinejunkie said:


> Was there any improvement once the caulk was added behind the baffle? I was thinking of adding silacone or something, but wasn't sure if it was going to be a good idea nor knew what exact silacone to use. feedback would be great. glad ya found your solution, i know the feeling of trying to figure something out and it sucks.


I don't know if adding the silicone sealant improved the bass response because I did that along with replacing the alpine woofers with the silver flutes-
I had to enlarge the opening in the MFD baffle and when I replaced it I added the silicone for good measure- the sheet-metal surface of the door was irregular and had a seam that most likely would have been an air leak- the MDF would not have made a good air seal to the door without some sealant. 
I would recommend anyone to do this step when in the process of sealing the doors. 
I have to think that an air leak would have allowed some of the back wave of the speaker to enter the cabin and possibly cancel out some of the front wave's bass.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

So your sealing could have made all the difference and changing the drivers themselves could have made little-always perform one mod at a time, evaluate and then make subsequent changes...


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

The Baron Groog said:


> So your sealing could have made all the difference and changing the drivers themselves could have made little-always perform one mod at a time, evaluate and then make subsequent changes...


Amen. Impossible to say if it's the case here, but a lot of bad advice starts with: I changed "A", "B" and "C" and "A" made all of the difference.


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

I know that my Alpine's SPR-17S put out some good bass in a treated door, even though I did not use any tape to seal the speaker to the mounting bracket, and this bracket clearly has a terrible seal between itself and the speaker. The bracket is a hard plastic adapter that came with the speaker. I doubt that a bad seal alone could kill so much bass that it would disappear.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

ZAKOH said:


> I know that my Alpine's SPR-17S put out some good bass in a treated door, even though I did not use any tape to seal the speaker to the mounting bracket, and this bracket clearly has a terrible seal between itself and the speaker. The bracket is a hard plastic adapter that came with the speaker. I doubt that a bad seal alone could kill so much bass that it would disappear.


There are plenty of variables that will determine whether or not a speaker will function well in any particular install. Bass frequencies are particulary susceptable to cancellation. The OP states:

"the sheet-metal surface of the door was irregular and had a seam that most likely would have been an air leak- the MDF would not have made a good air seal to the door"

If his midbass were not then sealed to the back of the doorcard then the rear -ve pressure would meet the front +ve pressure and cancel it. If the driver was well sealed to the door card then this would have made little difference-if like most cars I see there was a good gap between the driver and door card then the OP would have issues.

I find it odd that he went to these lengths:
"After much research and discussion by helpful members on this site, I sealed the door panels as best as I could- caulk behind the speaker baffles, plexiglass and silicone sealer followed by a complete blanket of dynamat, and some nicked up fingers."

without sealing the driver to it's mounting. 

However, I'm glad he now has a solution


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## adrenalinejunkie (Oct 17, 2010)

What type of silacone/caulk should i purchase? I want to make sure i get the correct type. thanks


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

adrenalinejunkie said:


> What type of silacone/caulk should i purchase? I want to make sure i get the correct type. thanks


I don't like to use silicone on painted surfaces. Makes it impossible to get anything else to stick if you ever change your mind.


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## adrenalinejunkie (Oct 17, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> I don't like to use silicone on painted surfaces. Makes it impossible to get anything else to stick if you ever change your mind.



What do you prefer to use?


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## adrenalinejunkie (Oct 17, 2010)

Will non hardning clay work?


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

gentlemen,

with respect to the door and baffle sealing, the door openings were sealed and dynamat added before I switched the woofer drivers. also, the dynamat was very tightly added around the MDF baffle to the door. the seam on the door sheetmetal was slight as was the slight shape irregularities- and the MDF was screwed down tightly to the door. This helped the original drivers but not by much. I doubt very highly that the silicone adhesive would have made much difference to the SQ of the original drivers- the air leak, if persent, would have only added a small percentage of air loss to the total air loss in the areas I could not seal, such as the window seal at the top of the door or the cables for the door latch. 
the reason i added the silicone sealant is because the baffles had to be removed to enlarge the holes for the new drivers. the door interface was not that bad. 

With respect to silicone adhesive added to the painted door- I used a tube of silicone sealant that would be used for putting a bead around a sink or bathtub- it solidifies but remains somewhat pliable. It is easy to remove with a paint scraper and some rubbing alcohol if one would ever need to modify in the future for some reason.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

FYI- the sealant I used:

http://www.amazon.com/08641-Corning-Silicone-Sealant-10-1-Ounce/dp/B000BD0QAK


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## rape_ape (Sep 22, 2010)

I love my $30 Peerless nomex buyouts from PE. I have 125wpc on them in my doors and they love it.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

avanti1960 said:


> With respect to silicone adhesive added to the painted door- I used a tube of silicone sealant that would be used for putting a bead around a sink or bathtub- it solidifies but remains somewhat pliable. It is easy to remove with a paint scraper and some rubbing alcohol if one would ever need to modify in the future for some reason.


I've used the same. Rubbing alcohol won't touch it. A paint scraper or razor blade will remove most of the material but doesn't help with the future bonding problem. Just trying to save others the same problem when there are so many other options.


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## kittenmcnugget (Nov 23, 2016)

anybody ever have any issues with the flute's wool cone and the elements in the door cavity?


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## Jheitt142 (Dec 7, 2011)

I wear wool all winter and it never has a problem no matter much snow gets on it. Smells bad sometimes though. Ha

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Anyone use any water repellent sealer or spray on the flutes?


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## glockcoma (Dec 22, 2015)

dcfis said:


> Anyone use any water repellent sealer or spray on the flutes?




Yup, I've been running them with fabric scotch guard on them for about a year. 
Front and back of the cone. 
No I'll affects that I can tell


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

But seriously.. I'd worry more about the magnet and voice coil further in the car door than the cone on the front side. And if you have that much water, consider the window seals.


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