# possible cost-effective closed cell foam alternative



## johnhancock (Aug 23, 2009)

ive been looking around at sound deadening and it can get pretty expensive pretty fast for a propler sound deadening. I found a closed cell foam that is real inexpensive and should be easily obtainable in most places. I would like some more input on it from the more experienced pros.

Home DepotSimpleSolutions Soundbloc Foam Underlayment for Laminate Flooring - Reduces Noise (102 Sq Ft Coverage) - 45055 at The Home Depot

The price is real nice. It looks a little thin but the specs say it is a quarter inch thick. if its thin then you can always use two or even three layers as needed and it will still come up cheaper than the other alternatives. Then a layer of a MLV on top and you are good to go. Can anybody comment on whether they think this will work.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Meh. When your hands are covered in contact cement, you'll be regretting the fact that you had to put down three layers of the stuff. I'm also not sure if using three or so layers with glue in between them compares to one thick layer. I'm guessing there would be some acoustical differences. CCF is not cheap if you buy it in one thick slab, but if you shop ebay for remnants, you can get it cheap enough. 

I still like my Army surplus ensolite sleeping pads as just a cheap CCF decoupler. They are sturdy and $8 for about 20 square feet.


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## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

johnhancock said:


> Home DepotSimpleSolutions Soundbloc Foam Underlayment for Laminate Flooring - Reduces Noise (102 Sq Ft Coverage) - 45055 at The Home Depot
> 
> The price is real nice. It looks a little thin but the specs say it is a quarter inch thick. if its thin then you can always use two or even three layers as needed and it will still come up cheaper than the other alternatives. Then a layer of a MLV on top and you are good to go. Can anybody comment on whether they think this will work.


My neighbor, who is a contractor, gave me an entire roll of that stuff last year. Once I have deadened everything that is "vertical" (doors, rear door, walls, plastic panels, etc.) with CLD, then applied CCF, I use this as a final layer approach on the plastic trim panels. That is only thing it is good for due to the fact that it crushes fairly easily and is thin. Further isolation, basically.


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## johnhancock (Aug 23, 2009)

sam3535 said:


> My neighbor, who is a contractor, gave me an entire roll of that stuff last year. Once I have deadened everything that is "vertical" (doors, rear door, walls, plastic panels, etc.) with CLD, then applied CCF, I use this as a final layer approach on the plastic trim panels. That is only thing it is good for due to the fact that it crushes fairly easily and is thin. Further isolation, basically.


did you also use a mlv?? and how thick was the home depot foam?


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## fastlane (Apr 6, 2009)

I ordered some of this. Not a ton more money and looks like it will do a better job. 
Ultra Touch


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## j_blackman (Jun 14, 2009)

Mooble said:


> Meh. When your hands are covered in contact cement, you'll be regretting the fact that you had to put down three layers of the stuff. I'm also not sure if using three or so layers with glue in between them compares to one thick layer. I'm guessing there would be some acoustical differences. CCF is not cheap if you buy it in one thick slab, but if you shop ebay for remnants, you can get it cheap enough.
> 
> I still like my Army surplus ensolite sleeping pads as just a cheap CCF decoupler. They are sturdy and $8 for about 20 square feet.


I'll agree with the contact-cemented hands comment, but as far as effectiveness goes I think the more air in between the layers of CCF, the better. To my understanding, CCF is simply a way to provide separation between your mass damping and your actual noise barrier and that the greater the difference in density between your "separator" and your noise barrier, the better. Therefore the glue/air gaps between the layers could even possibly help if anything-although I highly doubt there'd be a noticeable difference at all.


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## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

johnhancock said:


> did you also use a mlv?? and how thick was the home depot foam?


No MLV on the vertical sufaces, yet. I might add some to a couple of my problem areas the next time I tear the truck apart. The foam I have like what you posted is around 1/8". It works fantastically as a gasket.


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## johnhancock (Aug 23, 2009)

the ultratouch linked in the above post looks interesting. and since it is foil wrapped that might make it easier to work with an adhesive also.can anybody else further comment on that one.


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## Thunderplains (Sep 6, 2009)

Closed cell foam is the direction you want to go. Me, like you did not want to spend a lot of $$$, which this stuff can rack up quick.. I found one.. Take a look..

Neoprene Sheets, Rubber, Poker Table Foam, Neoprene Pads

Key words here are "Polyvinyl Chloride Nitrile Butadiene Rubber" aka Vinyl / Nitrile.. Hmm.. Sound familiar?? (www.sounddeadenershowdown.com CCF) and for $18, you can get a 96" x 48" sheet I ordered 1 full and 1 half sheet and for the $29 it cost, did the whole trunk, roof, floor and rear doors with alot to spare.. I ordered the 1/4 inch..


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## j_blackman (Jun 14, 2009)

Thunderplains said:


> Closed cell foam is the direction you want to go. Me, like you did not want to spend a lot of $$$, which this stuff can rack up quick.. I found one.. Take a look..
> 
> Neoprene Sheets, Rubber, Poker Table Foam, Neoprene Pads
> 
> Key words here are "Polyvinyl Chloride Nitrile Butadiene Rubber" aka Vinyl / Nitrile.. Hmm.. Sound familiar?? (www.sounddeadenershowdown.com CCF) and for $18, you can get a 96" x 48" sheet I ordered 1 full and 1 half sheet and for the $29 it cost, did the whole trunk, roof, floor and rear doors with alot to spare.. I ordered the 1/4 inch..



Now that seems like a great way to go! Is 1/4 inch thickness necessary for CCF in automotive sound deadening applications, or do you think 1/8 inch would be suffice?


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## Thunderplains (Sep 6, 2009)

I would do 1/8 on the doors, esp if you have it deadened correctly with a barrier (Damp Pro, Dynamat Extreme, stinger RK, Etc..)
I used 1/4 on the rear doors and it was tight, but I have it everywhere else..
No reason to buy a "name" when there is the same stuff out there for much less..

Also, use a good adhesive, NOT 3M.. I was just introduced to Dap Weldwood Landau Top and Trim Adhesive and working with this stuff is GREAT.. quick tack and will stick forever.


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## johnhancock (Aug 23, 2009)

awesome. thanks for the information. this was exactly what i was looking for. and the best part is that it is about a 30 minute drive from my house

a quick question. what is the difference between volara, neoprene, and the gymnastics rubber? is one better than the other or do all of them do a great job?


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## Thunderplains (Sep 6, 2009)

Not sure about volara, neoprene is the same type of rubber used in wet suits, dont think it will suit the purpose well.. I have been searching for Vinyl Nitrile and/or Ensolite type foam (which is what SDS, Overkill, etc are made out of..) and I did not want to pay a fortune for a name..


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## The J (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks for the link to the gymnastic rubber! I might be able to afford to do my sound deadening properly after all.

Not to go completely off-topic, but do you have any ideas for a good source of MLV (the OP does mention MLV in his topic)? I found this marine site selling 120sq ft. of MLV for $132. Any thoughts on this stuff? Shipping to Michigan is about $60.

Thanks again for the insight.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

How bout "memory mattress" type of foam, what izzit?


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## j_blackman (Jun 14, 2009)

The J said:


> Thanks for the link to the gymnastic rubber! I might be able to afford to do my sound deadening properly after all.
> 
> Not to go completely off-topic, but do you have any ideas for a good source of MLV (the OP does mention MLV in his topic)? I found this marine site selling 120sq ft. of MLV for $132. Any thoughts on this stuff? Shipping to Michigan is about $60.
> 
> Thanks again for the insight.


There's some cheap-ish MLV to be found here ends up being about $1.47/sq.foot rather than the $1.10 for the marine stuff you've found, BUT you can much smaller quantities. Also, the link I listed has different masses available, both 1 lbs/foot and 2lbs/foot, but I have no idea what the stuff you listed is.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

There are many different grades of MLV and many more of CCF. The lowest grade MLV I'd consider using is sold by soundproofing.org. The variety sold by soundproofcow.com (linked above) really isn't the same thing at all. It has a very course texture and sheds black dust very easily.

When it comes to CCF, there are hundreds or thousands of different compositions and grades. Neoprene tends to have a pretty good combination of durability and compression set characteristics, but again, there are a few different quality grades. 

Volara is almost like a slightly squishy Styrofoam. My biggest concern with it is the way it burns. The standard for any of these materials is that it can burn in the presence of a flame, but it should extinguish itself as soon as the flame is removed. It shouldn't drip little flame rockets. Volara burns like crazy.

There's nothing inherently "sound proofy" about Vinyl/Nitrile foams. I prefer them because MLV (vinyl in general) is very difficult to get adhesives to bond to - most tapes and contact adhesives won't hold. By using a CCF with vinyl content you can use vinyl specific adhesives when you need to attach CCF to MLV.


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## johnhancock (Aug 23, 2009)

thank you rudeboy for your information on volara. I never knew or understood about the fire rating for ccf. Now i learned something new and can understand their specs a little better. volara was on my list for possible ccf but now i can cross it off my life with a big X. How about ensolite? how is the burn rating of ensolite. This is important because i dont want to go through the hassle of putting ccf and mlv on the firewall only to have it catch on fire


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

johnhancock said:


> thank you rudeboy for your information on volara. I never knew or understood about the fire rating for ccf. Now i learned something new and can understand their specs a little better. volara was on my list for possible ccf but now i can cross it off my life with a big X. How about ensolite? how is the burn rating of ensolite. This is important because i dont want to go through the hassle of putting ccf and mlv on the firewall only to have it catch on fire


Ensolite is fine - I've never encountered anything that was being sold for general use that burns as "well" as Volara. My testing is no where near comprehensive. Also be aware that there are at least a dozen very different products under the family name "Ensolite". The ones I've handled have a compression set that is too high for surfaces that will be under load - foot wells are an example. Should be fine on a vertical surface like a firewall.


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## Thunderplains (Sep 6, 2009)

I agree with Rudeboy here, there are hundreds of CCF compositions out there and they vary in quality grades.. I will say, out of the dozen or so samples that I have received in Vinyl/Nitrile (I chose this type as it is what mostly all the sound proofing we us is composed of, i.e. Stinger Overkill, SDS CCF, SS Overkill Pro, Dynaliner, etc..) they MOSTLY look and feel the same for being that mix.

Ensolite is a "type" name that covers many brands.. Kinda like what we would call "chocolate" ice cream. Many vendors make the same thing.

Althought I never thought about the fire burn rates, my thought has always been, if you are using it in the cabin and you have a fire issue, you have bigger problems.. Most of the stuff I put in my car was in the trunk and roof & doors..

As far as MLV, when I get to it, I plan to use that on the floor over the top of Stinger Roadkill (same as damp Pro, dynamat, etc) I feel that MLV between the floor and if possible, the firewall is where one would benefit most.

As far as adhesive goes, need to be careful here. Some adhesives with their chemical compounds will eat right through and melt some vinyls. I have some Weldwood HHR (This stuff gets sprayed on, but can be brushed as well) that was recommended to me and I have to say, this stuff lays waste to any 3M product out there..
Excellent workability and temp resistance as well as bond strength.. I am going to do a test on some CCF I have from SDS too see how it reacts chemical wise, but if successful, I would use this for everything without question.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

If you are going to test an adhesive for use on MLV, test it on MLV. Many things will work with CCF that will not work with MLV.


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## The J (Oct 27, 2009)

There's some great info here! I hadn't considered that there'd be such a difference in quality of MLV. I'm pretty sure the 1/8" MLV on the marine site is 1lb./sq. ft. (it says something to that effect in the drop-down box where you select your order). They also sell 1/16" and 1/4" MLV. I'll send them an e-mail to see if we can order smaller rolls and to confirm the area density.

How well does Nitrile foam, in general, resist compression set? I assume that if the foam goes flat then it loses effectiveness; is this right?

Edit: The marine website also sells 100sq. ft. quantities. You also need to select the state that it ships from to reduce shipping costs.


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## niceguy (Mar 12, 2006)

I also checked out that HD underlayment some months ago and felt it was much too thin for a primary barrier....


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## johnhancock (Aug 23, 2009)

when putting down ccf and mlv, is it really necessary to put adhesive on it. for example on the floor, can you just put down the ccf then mlv then carpet on top? i understand vertical panels would be a little more complicated. but if couldnt the panels be used to hold the mlv and ccf in place or would they move around too much?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

johnhancock said:


> when putting down ccf and mlv, is it really necessary to put adhesive on it. for example on the floor, can you just put down the ccf then mlv then carpet on top? i understand vertical panels would be a little more complicated. but if couldnt the panels be used to hold the mlv and ccf in place or would they move around too much?


I believe using adhesives on the floor is almost always a mistake. I believe this because I have done it and then had to get under the material at a later time  Carpet, trim panels, seats, etc. should do the job just fine.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

The J said:


> Thanks for the link to the gymnastic rubber! I might be able to afford to do my sound deadening properly after all.
> 
> Not to go completely off-topic, but do you have any ideas for a good source of MLV (the OP does mention MLV in his topic)? I found this marine site selling 120sq ft. of MLV for $132. Any thoughts on this stuff? Shipping to Michigan is about $60.
> 
> Thanks again for the insight.


That's where I got mine from. Shipping was vey fast.


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## The J (Oct 27, 2009)

Anyone ever use this place? You can buy smaller quantities of MLV (40 sq. ft. as opposed to 100sq. ft.) and shipping is slightly cheaper.


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## johnhancock (Aug 23, 2009)

The J said:


> Anyone ever use this place? You can buy smaller quantities of MLV (40 sq. ft. as opposed to 100sq. ft.) and shipping is slightly cheaper.



wow nice find. this place is about $35 cheaper shipped than all the other places ive looked at. wish i would have found this place earlier. i already bought a roll from another website.


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## cannan (Jan 19, 2010)

I've been reading for almost 4 hours about all this and I still have one question....

Is it a necessity to have the CCF layer between your sound deadener and MLV layer when treating the floor of a vehicle?

As like alot of people I'm on a tight budget and I could use some cost savings for a nicer / higher end MLV since that is my most important piece. I'm deadening my 95 Integra and its the road noise, engine noise, etc. that I'm trying to keep out.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

cannan said:


> I've been reading for almost 4 hours about all this and I still have one question....
> 
> Is it a necessity to have the CCF layer between your sound deadener and MLV layer when treating the floor of a vehicle?
> 
> As like alot of people I'm on a tight budget and I could use some cost savings for a nicer / higher end MLV since that is my most important piece. I'm deadening my 95 Integra and its the road noise, engine noise, etc. that I'm trying to keep out.


It doesn't have to be CCF, but you want something to lift the MLV off of the sheet metal. You're looking for something that is resilient enough not to crush under the weight of your feet and legs. You want it to be light (air filled) and, since it will be on the floor, waterproof. CCF is pretty close to ideal, but you might be able to find a substitute.


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## cannan (Jan 19, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> It doesn't have to be CCF, but you want something to lift the MLV off of the sheet metal. You're looking for something that is resilient enough not to crush under the weight of your feet and legs. You want it to be light (air filled) and, since it will be on the floor, waterproof. CCF is pretty close to ideal, but you might be able to find a substitute.


Makes sense. The CCF obviously isn't expensive but I was just wondering if was a step that could be overlooked.


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## Rashco (Feb 1, 2010)

I posted this in another thread with no response, so thought I'd post here since it seems relevant.



DIYMA said:


> In an ideal situation, we would want air to be our decouper. Aispace between the vinyl and the panel will decouple the barrier the best ....


If air is the best decoupler, why use foam at all in doors and trim panels? Just attach the MLV to the trim/door panel. The air between the metal and the MLV on the trim panel would be a better decoupler than foam, correct?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Rashco said:


> I posted this in another thread with no response, so thought I'd post here since it seems relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> If air is the best decoupler, why use foam at all in doors and trim panels? Just attach the MLV to the trim/door panel. The air between the metal and the MLV on the trim panel would be a better decoupler than foam, correct?


You really want air on both sides of the barrier. Doors are a slightly different case. I frequently hang the MLV directly on the inner skin and then put the CCF between the MLV and the trim panel. One of the things you need to think about when dealing with barriers is the change in mass from what was there before. The door's inner skin has very little mass to start with. Adding a solid layer of 1 lb/ft² barrier increases the total mass of the plane by several times. You also have the airspace between the inner and outer skins to help things along. Add the acoustical reinforcement of the speaker mounting plane, for door mounted speakers, and the fact that the pressure created when you replace the trim panel, compressing the CCF and forcing the MLV against the MLV and you have a compromise worth considering.

Everywhere else, it's best to go sheet metal / decoupling layer / barrier layer. You want to prevent vibrations from passing into the barrier through contact. If you look at a trim panel like you'll find on a C-Pillar, you could get a pretty good barrier by directly mounting the barrier material to the trim panel and using the existing airspace to decouple it from the underlying sheet metal. It's not a terrible plan, but you also want to think about rattles. CCF plays a number of roles.


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## Rashco (Feb 1, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> You really want air on both sides of the barrier. Doors are a slightly different case. I frequently hang the MLV directly on the inner skin and then put the CCF between the MLV and the trim panel. One of the things you need to think about when dealing with barriers is the change in mass from what was there before. The door's inner skin has very little mass to start with. Adding a solid layer of 1 lb/ft² barrier increases the total mass of the plane by several times. You also have the airspace between the inner and outer skins to help things along. Add the acoustical reinforcement of the speaker mounting plane, for door mounted speakers, and the fact that the pressure created when you replace the trim panel, compressing the CCF and forcing the MLV against the MLV and you have a compromise worth considering.
> 
> Everywhere else, it's best to go sheet metal / decoupling layer / barrier layer. You want to prevent vibrations from passing into the barrier through contact. If you look at a trim panel like you'll find on a C-Pillar, you could get a pretty good barrier by directly mounting the barrier material to the trim panel and using the existing airspace to decouple it from the underlying sheet metal. It's not a terrible plan, but you also want to think about rattles. CCF plays a number of roles.


So if I understand you correctly:

- For the door, the air space between the outer skin and the inner skin (with the MLV attached) would act as the decoupler with regards to keeping exterior noise out. No CCF necessary between outer and inner skin since the air space is doing the decoupling. The CCF between the inner skin MLV and the door trim panel would be the decoupler with regards to keeping interior noise (music) in as well as helping maybe with rattles. Correct? If so - then if one is ony concerned with exterior noise, the CCF necessary since it's mainly for interior noise in that situation - is that right?

- For the trim panels (over the real wheel well for instance), if you mount the MLV to the trim panel and there is some air space between it and the sheet metal, then the CCF mainly be for controlling rattles, since the air alone without foam would be just as good at decoupling as foam - correct?


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## lil goat (Oct 16, 2009)

I was lucky enough to have Rudeboy help me with my install, I followed his advice and used his products. All are excellent quality as was his advice. I may have payed a bit more but I am very happy with the results. This is not a project I ever want to do again, it was a total pain in the butt to do. I just wanted to do it right the first time, to me time is worth more than money sometimes. To do it right is very time consuming, and it is the foundation a good system is built on to me. It was worth every penny and every hour I spent doing it. Rudeboy also turned me on to Zed Audio, no turning back now!


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Rashco said:


> So if I understand you correctly:
> 
> - For the door, the air space between the outer skin and the inner skin (with the MLV attached) would act as the decoupler with regards to keeping exterior noise out. No CCF necessary between outer and inner skin since the air space is doing the decoupling. The CCF between the inner skin MLV and the door trim panel would be the decoupler with regards to keeping interior noise (music) in as well as helping maybe with rattles. Correct? If so - then if one is ony concerned with exterior noise, the CCF necessary since it's mainly for interior noise in that situation - is that right?
> 
> - For the trim panels (over the real wheel well for instance), if you mount the MLV to the trim panel and there is some air sapce between it and the sheet metal, then the CCF mainly be for controlling rattles, since the air alone without foam would be just as good at decoupling as foam - correct?


A barrier works the same way from either direction - the integrity of barrier determines how well it performs, no matter which way the the sound is traveling.

In the door configuration I described, the barrier really isn't decoupled at all. That would require a separate layer between the inner skin and the barrier. The trim panel wouldn't normally be in contact with the MLV. Decoupling refers to preventing vibration from passing into the barrier from the underlying substrate. 

There is a second mechanism that is similar but completely different  Sound has more trouble traveling through layers with very different densities than it does traveling through a homogeneous medium. This used to be presented as a justification for a layer of CCF or similar material. The problem is that this is closely tied to frequency and the layer of 1/8" or 1/4" material is only going to have an impact on very high frequencies. The few inches of space inside the door brings this down into a more useful range.

The wheel well example you gave should work the same with or without the decoupling layer, with one difference. A layer of resilient material, with mass on top of it will reduce the residual resonance in the sheet metal it makes contact with. I can't tell you if that is a meaningful difference or not.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

lil goat said:


> I was lucky enough to have Rudeboy help me with my install, I followed his advice and used his products. All are excellent quality as was his advice. I may have payed a bit more but I am very happy with the results. This is not a project I ever want to do again, it was a total pain in the butt to do. I just wanted to do it right the first time, to me time is worth more than money sometimes. To do it right is very time consuming, and it is the foundation a good system is built on to me. It was worth every penny and every hour I spent doing it. Rudeboy also turned me on to Zed Audio, no turning back now!


Has the pain gone away yet?


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## lil goat (Oct 16, 2009)

Rudeboy said:


> Has the pain gone away yet?


Yes but I am a glutton for punishment, I will doing the trunk soon and under the hood too most likely, see you in April Don. I think anyone who spends anything over $100 on a car stereo should do this first, it makes that much difference. I have several friends who did it on stock Monsoon systems in the Pontiac Solstice, made a HUGE difference, add a nice system and DAHAMN!


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## Rashco (Feb 1, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> ...In the door configuration I described, the barrier really isn't decoupled at all. That would require a separate layer between the inner skin and the barrier.


So, would it be accurate to say that inner door skin/MLV/CCF provides more benefit for keeping noise in than out, and inner door skin/CCF/MLV provides more benefit for keeping noise out than in?



Rudeboy said:


> ...The problem is that this is closely tied to frequency and the layer of 1/8" or 1/4" material is only going to have an impact on very high frequencies. The few inches of space inside the door brings this down into a more useful range.


Do you mean that there is more space in the door for CCF that is thicker than 1/4 inch, and that might help to reduce noise better than just the air alone? IOW, stuff the space between inner and outer door with thick CCF?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Rashco said:


> So, would it be accurate to say that inner door skin/MLV/CCF provides more benefit for keeping noise in than out, and inner door skin/CCF/MLV provides more benefit for keeping noise out than in?
> 
> I doubt there would be a measurable difference.
> 
> Do you mean that there is more space in the door for CCF that is thicker than 1/4 inch, and that might help to reduce noise better than just the air alone? IOW, stuff the space between inner and outer door with thick CCF?


CCF is a poor absorber. It's function is more mechanical than acoustical. Absorption depends on friction with the moving air. Since each cell is closed, air can't move through the material and friction can't develop. You wouldn't be roll your windows up or down if the cavity is stuffed with foam


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## Rashco (Feb 1, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> Absorption depends on friction with the moving air. Since each cell is closed, air can't move through the material and friction can't develop.


That's a very good explanation - thanks. 

I mentioned stuffing the doors in response to this statement:



Rudeboy said:


> The problem is that this is closely tied to frequency and the layer of 1/8" or 1/4" material is only going to have an impact on very high frequencies. The few inches of space inside the door brings this down into a more useful range.


It sounded like you were saying that the larger area in the doors allows the CCF to become more useful at blocking lower frequencies since you could use foam thicker than 1/4. I was obviously wrong, so could you please explain what you meant by this?

Appreciate your taking the time to reply. My goal is to block outside noise. Im starting with 25% coverage of CLD tiles, and will move on to MLV with a decoupler. I am trying to decide a few things:

- is CCF really worth bothering with since it doesn't block low frequencies
- should I use carpet jute (in non-wet areas) instead of CCF as the decoupler since from what I've read it it a better sound absorber.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Rashco said:


> That's a very good explanation - thanks.
> 
> I mentioned stuffing the doors in response to this statement:
> 
> ...


You have to remember that no matter how good an absorber any material is, thinckness and frequency go hand in hand. You want a material to be 1/4 as thick as the wavelength of the frequencies you are targeting. These numbers will give you something to think about:

1/8" >= 27 kHz
1/4" >= 13.5 kHz
1/2" >= 6.75 kHz

Most road and vehicle noise is in the 50-500 Hz range. How high do your run the speakers in your doors?


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## Rashco (Feb 1, 2010)

Rudeboy said:


> You have to remember that no matter how good an absorber any material is, thinckness and frequency go hand in hand. You want a material to be 1/4 as thick as the wavelength of the frequencies you are targeting. These numbers will give you something to think about:
> 
> 1/8" >= 27 kHz
> 1/4" >= 13.5 kHz
> ...


In my mind, there's two ways two interpret this info:

1. Since it's not realistic to use anything thicker than 1/2 in an automotive application, there's no real good reason to bother trying to absorb sound at all. Thus, no reason to use CCF, carpet jute, or anything really. (with regards to absorb noise - I realize CCF can help with rattles).
2. If, knowing the info in #1, you still decide to use something to absorb noise, use the most absorbant material possible. If I can only use something 1/4 in my car, jute would be better than CCF (in non-wet areas) since it is a better absorber than CCF.

In either case, CCF doesn't apply, correct? Not trying to be argumentative. On the contrary, just trying to pick your brain since I respect your expertise on the subject,


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Rashco said:


> In my mind, there's two ways two interpret this info:
> 
> 1. Since it's not realistic to use anything thicker than 1/2 in an automotive application, there's no real good reason to bother trying to absorb sound at all. Thus, no reason to use CCF, carpet jute, or anything really. (with regards to absorb noise - I realize CCF can help with rattles).
> 2. If, knowing the info in #1, you still decide to use something to absorb noise, use the most absorbant material possible. If I can only use something 1/4 in my car, jute would be better than CCF (in non-wet areas) since it is a better absorber than CCF.
> ...


CCF doesn't apply when it comes to absorbing.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Rashco said:


> In my mind, there's two ways two interpret this info:
> 
> 1. Since it's not realistic to use anything thicker than 1/2 in an automotive application, there's no real good reason to bother trying to absorb sound at all. Thus, no reason to use CCF, carpet jute, or anything really. (with regards to absorb noise - I realize CCF can help with rattles).
> 2. If, knowing the info in #1, you still decide to use something to absorb noise, use the most absorbant material possible. If I can only use something 1/4 in my car, jute would be better than CCF (in non-wet areas) since it is a better absorber than CCF.
> ...


Should add - CCF is a good decoupler that will reliably stand up to the automotive environment - that's why we use it. You can use anything that meets those requirements. There are very few applications in a vehicle where absorption is worth considering at all.


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## katodevin (Feb 14, 2008)

Rudeboy - you should go on a cross country tour and deaden people's cars  If I was within a few hundred miles of you, I'd be knocking on your door with cash in hand.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

katodevin said:


> Rudeboy - you should go on a cross country tour and deaden people's cars  If I was within a few hundred miles of you, I'd be knocking on your door with cash in hand.


LOL

The meet lil goat was referring to above is pretty close to that. Several times a year, a bunch of East coast Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky owners get together in Southern Maryland to work on their cars, drink beer and eat  

Last time we did 5 or 6 cars, assembly line style. It still takes quite a bit of time, but it's very cool to start with an untreated car, tear it apart, give it the complete treatment and put it back together. That means the next time the owner starts the car, he or she gets the full impact. 

At the first meet I made the mistake of working hard, in the hot sun, for 14 hours. I learned to identify the people who were especially good at one task and let them do it. That way I could just wander around, drink beer and make suggestions


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## katodevin (Feb 14, 2008)

You lucky guys. We need a Rudeboy on the West coast.


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## K5blazergirl (Nov 9, 2011)

Rudeboy said:


> There are many different grades of MLV and many more of CCF. The lowest grade MLV I'd consider using is sold by soundproofing.org. The variety sold by soundproofcow.com (linked above) really isn't the same thing at all. It has a very course texture and sheds black dust very easily.
> 
> When it comes to CCF, there are hundreds or thousands of different compositions and grades. Neoprene tends to have a pretty good combination of durability and compression set characteristics, but again, there are a few different quality grades.
> 
> ...


I have plenty of room in the back of my truck- would 1/2 inch vinyl nitrile on the floors under my mlv be overkill?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

K5blazergirl said:


> I have plenty of room in the back of my truck- would 1/2 inch vinyl nitrile on the floors under my mlv be overkill?


I forgot about this post. Some of the suppliers I mentioned are selling different MLV than they did. I'll still go with the smooth on both sides thing, but I haven't kept up with what people are selling now.

CCF is a mechanical not an acoustical material. It's primary use is to keep two other things from making contact with each other. The acoustical difference between 1/2" and 1/4" or 1/8" are going to be negligible. My usual rule of thumb is to use 1/4" where it will be subject to compression - like the floor pans, and 1/8" everywhere else. This will also depend on how compressible the version of foam you are using is. You're really just trying to keep it from flattening out.


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