# 2012 MECA Rules



## KP

MECA reviews the rules every year. Here is what Steve posted on the SQL rule changes;

Sound Quality League
- I am working on a new SQ listening CD from Chesky. As soon as the track order is confirmed, we will revise the rule book for track recommendations with the new CD.
- We are working on better definitions for our SQL classes.
- We have a clarification and revision on RTA Freq Out tie-breaker procedure.

Link to thread: 2012 Rule Book update - MECA News and Announcements - MECA Forums

Members must contact their SQL State Rep to voice rule opinions. The States Rep forwards the suggestion on to MECA.


----------



## Mic10is

thanks for the post Kirk

I had emailed Steve a month or 2 ago and, the only thing I asked for was better clarifications of the SQL classes. there are too many grey areas where they shouldnt be.

things like cutting metal isnt mentioned till Modex but you actually are allowed to cut metal in modified and some in Mod street to accommodate the next speaker size up, so long as it is not externally vented etc...

I get at least a dozen or more people asking every month during the season, what they can and cant do in a class etc...
and at shows

New CD will be nice...Spanish Harlem has once again run its course in another organization


----------



## MacLeod

This is gonna be fun. Everybody starting from scratch with a new cd is going to make for some fun. I need to get me a reference set of home audio speakers or headphones or something to get familiar with how this thing is supposed to sound. Yeah, looking forward to this year.


----------



## chefhow

I dont see a whole lot of things changing in SQL, I think it will be more clarification like Mic said. When we do our shows up in Md/Pa there are always people asking questions about the rules.


----------



## scyankee

I am really looking forward to the new CD.


----------



## pionkej

scyankee said:


> I am really looking forward to the new CD.


X2 I'm tired of Spanish Harlem and I haven't even competed yet.


----------



## KP

The female vocal on the new CD is difficult. Becareful what you ask for.


----------



## Mic10is

AcuraTLSQ said:


> The female vocal on the new CD is difficult. Becareful what you ask for.


please share


----------



## KP

I do not have 100% confirmation it is still under consideration. Possible it may have been cut. I have not been involved in the selection process. Most have heard it before but probably skipped over it to the next track because of the airy sibilance. 

Mark E and Steve H both have it on their test CD's.

And its still Rebecca. (If they use it)


----------



## wdemetrius1

I'm looking forward to the upcoming season. Patiently awaiting the new track listing.


----------



## MacLeod

They have the track list on the MECA forums. 



Title: I Thought About You
Artist: Christy Baron
Genre: Jazz / Vocal
Label: Chesky Records
Release Date: 1996

Song- Got to get you into my Life
•••••••••••••••
Title: Ink
Artist: Livingston Taylor
Genre: Folk
Label: Chesky Records
Release Date: 1997

Song- Baker Street
•••••••••••••••••••••••
Title: Bluesmen
Artist: Cephas & Wiggins
Genre: Blues / Americana
Label: Chesky Records
Release Date: 1992

Song- Prison Blues
••••••••••••••••••••••••
Title: The Four Seasons
Artist: Vivaldi
Genre: Classical
Label: Chesky Records
Release Date:

Song- Concerto in F Major "Spring"
•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Title: Gypsy Flamenco
Artist: Carlos Heredia
Genre: Latin / Flamenco
Label: Chesky Records
Release Date: 1996

Song- No Quiero Verte
•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Title: The New York Girl's Club
Artist: Rebecca Pidgeon
Genre: Pop / Vocal
Label: Chesky Records
Release Date: 1996

Song- Auid Lang Syne/Bring it On Home to me
••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Title: A Cappella Dreams
Artist: The Persuasions
Genre: R&B / Vocal
Label: Chesky Records
Release Date: 2003

Song- Dock of the Bay
••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Title: The Coryells
Artist: Larry Coryell | The Coryells
Genre: Jazz / Fusion
Label: Chesky Records
Release Date: 2000

Song- Goodbye Porkpie Hat
•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Title: Circle Of Drums
Artist: Babatunde Olatunji
Genre: World / African
Label: Chesky Records
Release Date: 2005

Song- Stepping (Isise)
•••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Title: I Thought About You
Artist: Christy Baron
Genre: Jazz / Vocal
Label: Chesky Records
Release Date: 1996

Song- Aint no Sunshine
••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Title: Ultimate Demonstration Disc Volume 1
Artist: Various Artist
Genre: Test Disc
Label: Chesky Records
Release Date:

Song- Track 27 - Bass Resonance Track
(Best of Chesky Jazz and audiophile Volume 2)
••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Title:
Artist:
Genre: Test Disc
Label: Chesky Records
Release Date:

Song- Track 29 - Dynamic Drum Track
(Best of Chesky Jazz and audiophile Volume 2)
•••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Zero Bit Test Track - 3 minutes
••••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Stereo Pink Noise - 3 minutes
••••••••••••••••••••••••••
Mono Pink Noise - 3 minutes
•••••••••••••••••••••••••
Phase Pulse test - 3 minutes


----------



## Velozity

Hmm. So there it is. I'm glad they added the zero bit test and pink noise. Don't need to carry the IASCA disc with this one now.


----------



## MacLeod

Ugh, zero bit. Guess the noise nazis will be out in force. Guess I'm gonna have to go buy a $600 head unit with optical out so I don't get hit for hiss. 

That crap drives me crazy. My $500 amp has a tiny "pfft" when it turns off. -1 every time. Gawdamighty!


----------



## stereo_luver

MacLeod said:


> Ugh, zero bit. Guess the noise nazis will be out in force. Guess I'm gonna have to go buy a $600 head unit with optical out so I don't get hit for hiss.
> 
> That crap drives me crazy. My $500 amp has a tiny "pfft" when it turns off. -1 every time. Gawdamighty!


There is an easy fix for that....LOL

Chuck


----------



## tintbox

stereo_luver said:


> There is an easy fix for that....LOL
> 
> Chuck


I remember that!


----------



## MacLeod

Bribery?


----------



## Darth SQ

Subscribed.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## chefhow

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Subscribed.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


It's all posted on the MECA forums for everyone to read.


----------



## Darth SQ

chefhow said:


> It's all posted on the MECA forums for everyone to read.


I appreciate that. 
I found some good info posted on here and thought I would follow it.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## KP

Link to the 2012 rules:

https://www.dropbox.com/invite_regi...nt=/invite?k=69c49609601854599b5667037847799f


----------



## req

good info, now where do i get the CD?


----------



## KP

Its either on the website now or will be soon. If they are just now deciding on the tracks it may take a couple weeks/months (??) to get a finished product.


----------



## MacLeod

I think I remember Steve saying somewhere (forums maybe) that he's shooting for it to be released by SBN.


----------



## stereo_luver

tintbox said:


> I remember that!


Good Times! AND who didn't get dinged for a turn-on pop? 

Chuck


----------



## KP

MacLeod said:


> I think I remember Steve saying somewhere (forums maybe) that he's shooting for it to be released by SBN.


Got all the songs off of Zune.


----------



## stereo_luver

State Championship qualifications have changed a bit. I hope we get some shows here. None are listed so far and we no longer have a judge in our state. Ben has retired from judging, which isn't a total loss. I always had to tune for the reflections due to his BIG head.....LOL j/k.

Chuck


----------



## MacLeod

stereo_luver said:


> State Championship qualifications have changed a bit. I hope we get some shows here. None are listed so far and we no longer have a judge in our state. Ben has retired from judging, which isn't a total loss. I always had to tune for the reflections due to his BIG head.....LOL j/k.
> 
> Chuck


We still got Scott Patterson don't we? He hosted several shows last year. Anybody know if he's gonna do any this year?


----------



## stereo_luver

I don't see anything for Georgia yet on the schedule. Steve mentioned at Finals Dave Hogan may make some shows here but that was up in the air.

Chuck


----------



## KP

Hmmmmmmm........Don't see David going back to GA. Lost too much $$ the last time. I don't mind breaking even myself but cannot 'sponsor' a show.  But David can speak for himself.


----------



## ErinH

Show at Kirks house in March? Sweet!


----------



## MacLeod

AcuraTLSQ said:


> Hmmmmmmm........Don't see David going back to GA. Lost too much $$ the last time. I don't mind breaking even myself but cannot 'sponsor' a show.  But David can speak for himself.


Yeah Georgia shows never seem to do that well. The Tennessee and Alabama regulars rarely make the drive so it's always just the Georgia locals which ain't many. Too bad cause you'd think with Atlanta being as big as it is, there would be better turnout.


----------



## highly

AcuraTLSQ said:


> The female vocal on the new CD is difficult. Becareful what you ask for.


I've heard that people felt they'd invested a lot in subwoofers just for a foot tap. I don't see where that will be a complaint with this track lineup. Kirk's right. Be careful what you've asked for. There are some real challenges this time.

Game on!


----------



## dietDrThunder

AcuraTLSQ said:


> Link to the 2012 rules:
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/invite_regi...nt=/invite?k=69c49609601854599b5667037847799f


I am an active DropBox user, and when I click that link it takes me to my Dropbox share drive. Could you maybe send a share invite to dave AT expertfriend DOT com? Or otherwise advise...thanks much!

Apart from that I thought I'd mention...I'm way new to this, but I am an old hand at endeavors that involve participant and official rule scrutiny, with motorcycle racing being the most obvious parallel. I bring that up because as I consider competing I've been looking at previous years' rules, and they are rife with ambiguity.

One suggestion I have is to not do the thing where you say "everything in this other class, plus this stuff." Copy and paste are easy to use. It's a good idea to be explicit at every opportunity, and pdf's are cheap  Doing this makes it easier for newcomers to be clear on the rules, as we're not familiar with the different classes. Moving back and forth between rule book sections is annoying and invites error. If more than one class get put together for reference, that's complete disaster to the n00b ('everything in this class and that class, plus these things).

I mention this because being n00b-friendly is imperative to hobby growth, so as a new guy here but veteran of almost every other hobby, like, ever, I am well-versed in this area 

Anyway, just my $.02 ...thanks!


----------



## highly

Welcome, dietDrThunder, to the ambiguity that is car audio competition!

This thread started before that document was posted by the sanctioning body, and the rulebook is now freely available at the MECA website:
MECA > Home

MECA has their own forum where they'd actually have an opportunity to listen to ideas from the perspective of a wise newcomer. You'll note the many posts by Steve Stern - well, he's the 'man'. As far as lack of clarity and general ambiguity is concerned, I think that is a built-in attempt to foster creativity in the rules. It's so much more fun to build a car that skirts the edge of a class only to find out at the last moment that you've been reclassed because you got too close! OK, for the most part I kid, but as you read through the rulebook you'll see my point. Clear and concise they are not, but this years' rules _are _more clear than in the past.

I don't disagree that the rules could be laid out completely for each class. Maybe if you post on the MECA forum and enough momentum grows behind the idea such a thing could be in our future!

-Todd


----------



## dietDrThunder

Hey, thanks for thee great reply. I did try the MECA sit before I posted, and the link wasn't working. I will go back and try again for sure.

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to be That Guy, who shows up for 10 minutes and knows everything that is wrong and how to fix it. I just meant that n00bs are definitely a group of possible consumers of a rule set who a) need to be able to understand them clearly and b) may not have any prior knowledge of the subject matter to lend perspective.

As I am such a beginner, I was hoping that maybe my perspective might be helpful is all.

Thanks again!


----------



## highly

If you have any difficulties getting the rulebook let me know and I will email it to you. Just PM me here with your email address. I mention the MECA forum because, although a few of the judges and some of the R&E committee occasion this forum, it isn't really the best spot to post what is an honestly good idea. This is where we come to whine and complain (joking again) about those things we're too girly-man to bring up on the MECA forum. You'll get the feel of that pretty quickly as well 

Honestly, though. Welcome!

-T

Here's the direct and verified link:
http://www.mecacaraudio.com/2011rulebook/2011%20Rule%20Book.pdf

Also check out the directory it is in for some other general and possibly useless stuff


----------



## Noobdelux

what i am wondering abaout is that is so many different cars out there. so in oem class.. how would you know whats oem or not?


----------



## highly

Noobdelux said:


> what i am wondering abaout is that is so many different cars out there. so in oem class.. how would you know whats oem or not?


OEM, or Original Equipment Manufacturer, is by definition 'what came in the car from the factory'. The rules are pretty clear on what that means.


----------



## Mic10is

Noobdelux said:


> what i am wondering abaout is that is so many different cars out there. so in oem class.. how would you know whats oem or not?


thats a good question
honestly, like with many things, there is a certain level of trust between competitors and the Judges and organization.
As a judge, we hope that people stay within the rules and put themselves in the appropriate class or at a minimum, seek out help from Judges or the Organization to determine the appropriate class.

In general tho, It really isnt hard to determine if a vehicle complies with the rules of STOCK. Obviously you cant have speakers outside of stock locations, except for a pair of tweeters which must be surface mounted
so if you see something that doesnt look like it belongs--then you can simply point it out.

Next, with the internet and smart phones, it isnt hard to google any car and come up with a host of pictures.

if a competitors wants to say that their vehicle didnt come with something like a spare tire for example to explain why their amp rack is located in the spare tire well---some judges have even called Car Dealers to verify what came with that particular model.

and at Finals, all competitors in Stock were required to remove their door panels after judging was complete to verify that no cutting was done and fitment of larger than stock drivers were used.

but alot is based on trust


----------



## Noobdelux

im glad i stuck with 6,5" mid bass units then, thats what i think is original in my car..
(09 golf station wagon) (or whatever you call it over there: P)


----------



## req

6.5's are in the mk5 golf/jetta. you just gotta find a nice robust 6.5 to replace hehe.

im downloading the rules now... heres a question.

i have a dock for my cellphone that i modded into my dash, it does not ntegrate with the stereo and is for hands free driving and gps usage, i did add it to the dash, but is that something that a judge can say is a modified dash for a phone dock when its not integrated with the stereo?

kind of another grey area lol.


----------



## dietDrThunder

highly said:


> If you have any difficulties getting the rulebook let me know and I will email it to you. Just PM me here with your email address. I mention the MECA forum because, although a few of the judges and some of the R&E committee occasion this forum, it isn't really the best spot to post what is an honestly good idea. This is where we come to whine and complain (joking again) about those things we're too girly-man to bring up on the MECA forum. You'll get the feel of that pretty quickly as well
> 
> Honestly, though. Welcome!
> 
> -T
> 
> Here's the direct and verified link:
> http://www.mecacaraudio.com/2011rulebook/2011%20Rule%20Book.pdf
> 
> Also check out the directory it is in for some other general and possibly useless stuff


Thanks for the info!


----------



## Noobdelux

req said:


> 6.5's are in the mk5 golf/jetta. you just gotta find a nice robust 6.5 to replace hehe.
> 
> im downloading the rules now... heres a question.
> 
> i have a dock for my cellphone that i modded into my dash, it does not ntegrate with the stereo and is for hands free driving and gps usage, i did add it to the dash, but is that something that a judge can say is a modified dash for a phone dock when its not integrated with the stereo?
> 
> kind of another grey area lol.


hertz mille will do the job nicely i guess : PP

dont know abaout that question i guess..


----------



## KP

Generally speaking: If a 'mod' doesn't have anything to do with the audio, it is not taken into consideration in classifications.


----------



## ocblaze

Hey guys I would be competing in the Stock SQL Class and I was wandering if I can use Second Skin Deflex pads in the doors? I also have a pair of subs in the rear of my Blazer and I was wandering if it's legal to run the subs even though they did not come stock?


----------



## dietDrThunder

ocblaze said:


> Hey guys I would be competing in the Stock SQL Class and I was wandering if I can use Second Skin Deflex pads in the doors? I also have a pair of subs in the rear of my Blazer and I was wandering if it's legal to run the subs even though they did not come stock?


This link works...you just have to be patient while the doc loads is all.

http://www.mecacaraudio.com/2012rulebook.pdf

As long as your sound deadening is happening inside the doors and not on the outside (ie: not visible) you're good.

_K) Commercial Sound Deadener (i.e. asphalt or rubberized) may be used through out the vehicle behind panels or in other non-visable areas._

Subs are allowed. the idea in a nutshell of 'stock' as I gather by reading (the rules are ambiguous and not written very well) is that you can't cut stuff up. You can change the HU, but not change the dash opening (apart from going from double-DIN to single or the like). All of the speakers have to be in OEM spots without cutting stuff, apart from added tweets, etc.

_O) Unless mounted in a factory location, subwoofer(s) must be installed in the trunk / cargo area, except for systems that include subwoofers as
part of original factory equipment._

I'm new too, but I've been reading, so I thought I'd share. I'll be in the 'street' class because while my system is not elaborate at all, I did give up my spare tire so that I could retain a near-OEM hatch/trunk volume. For the experienced guys, if I'm off base here please feel free to hassle me.


----------



## stereo_luver

If you read in the rules I 'think' it states that you can do work behind the B pillars and stay in your class. I'm sure those that know the rules better can correct me if I'm wrong. This does not apply to acoustic treatments.

Chuck


----------



## Andy Jones

MacLeod said:


> Guess I'm gonna have to go buy a $600 head unit with optical out so I don't get hit for hiss.


You have a headunit with an optical out---at least I hope you still have it :worried:


----------



## MacLeod

Andy Jones said:


> You have a headunit with an optical out---at least I hope you still have it :worried:


LOL! I sold it for crack. 

Nah I've still got it and still using it but it started messing up on me last year at TN finals. It wont auto feed anymore. You have to turn it off, eject the CD, put the next one in as far as it will go, push the button so it will feed it in then turn the power back on. Otherwise it won't read it and even if you do it that way, it takes literally 30-45 seconds to read the CD. It worked fine up til Hogan got in to judge so I'm pretty sure he's that one the broke it. 

My backup head unit is my old 9855 and it's analog so if the 9861 stops working I would lose a bunch of points for hiss at high volumes. And I'm already losing points because my $500 4 channel amp has a little turn off pop.


----------



## DarkKnight826

Not sure about the "ambiguous" or "not well written" aspects of the SQ rules. In stock, which is where I compete, only stock speaker locations can be used. Those locations cannot be altered. One pair of tweeters can be added to door panels, dash, or a-pillars, but only the supplied hardware can be used to mount said tweeters; no pods or buildouts are allowed. Subwoofers can be added, but must be installed in trunk/cargo area, unless a different location was supplied from the factory, and in that case, you can replace the sub, but cannot modify the enclosure. Only asphalt or rubberized sound deadener can be used throughout the vehicle, and must be concealed by the vehicles panels or factory carpeting. No sound absorbing materials or other acoustical treatments can be used. The objective of Stock class is not to keep it as much stock audio equipment as possible, but to make your integration of aftermarket equipment appear as if it could have come from the factory that way, working within the rules and guidelines. I'm not trying to come down on anybody, but I think the rules are very clear cut for each of the 7 classes. Half the fun of these classes is actually having someone with far less of an advantage, whether it be in experience, skill, or gear, go up against someone with less restrictions, and have their vehicle sound better!


----------



## asota

One Grey area of the rules IMO needs more clarification. Master class is supposed to be for manufacture sponsored cars that have a advantange over others because gear is free or at very reduced cost. My question is does this make any car that has free or reduced cost gear to showcase manufacture products disqualified from running any class but Master?


----------



## MacLeod

> A Master Class Competitor is anyone who works for a 12-Volt Manufacturer in any way. Any vehicle that is regarded as a “factory
> demo vehicle” or owned by a manufacturer belongs in this class. Anyone who believes that they have the experience and abilities to
> compete in the Master class may do so. This is an expert class that gives Competitors and vehicles that have an “unfair” advantage
> over other Competitors the opportunity to be part of MECA.


Youre only in Master if the manufacturer paid for everything. 

So if Alpine buys the car, pays for the installation and gives you all the free gear then youre in Master cause thats essentially a manufacturer's demo car. If Alpine gives you some free amps but you pay for the car, installation and all the travel and such, then youre just a sponsored competitor that can compete in the other classes. A manufacturer just giving you some free amps isnt that big an advantage these days with Ebay and all the super cheap deals you can get online. Joe Consumer can get the same stuff a sponsored guy can get for not much more especially considering that manufacturer sponsorships are getting rare these days and its usually a price discount and not free stuff. Thats why they got rid of the "+" classes a few years back.


----------



## asota

MacLeod said:


> Youre only in Master if the manufacturer paid for everything.
> 
> So if that is the case Tom Shaw (for example) if not for his seat mod, should be running in street class. I may be wrong but I don't know of any fully sponsored cars running in Master class.


----------



## michaelsil1

If you're the Promoter you have to compete in Master Class.


----------



## DarkKnight826

A Master Class Competitor is anyone who works for a 12-Volt Manufacturer in any way. Any vehicle that is regarded as a “factory demo vehicle” or owned by a manufacturer belongs in this class. Anyone who believes that they have the experience and abilities to
compete in the Master class may do so. This is an expert class that gives Competitors and vehicles that have an “unfair” advantage over other Competitors the opportunity to be part of MECA. (Taken from page 22 of the 2012 MECA rulebook, this is the entire classifaction for Master class)

Stock is open to Consumer, Sponsored, and Professional Competitors. Manufacturer Vehicles are not permitted in Stock. (Taken from page 21 of the 2012 MECA rulebook, this is the opening statement for Stock class)


----------



## Mic10is

asota said:


> MacLeod said:
> 
> 
> 
> Youre only in Master if the manufacturer paid for everything.
> 
> So if that is the case Tom Shaw (for example) if not for his seat mod, should be running in street class. I may be wrong but I don't know of any fully sponsored cars running in Master class.
> 
> 
> 
> Tom has kick panels which would put him at least Mod Street if not modified.
> Tom competes in MASTER by Choice, which is another reason why some people compete in certain classes
> 
> my BMW won Extreme in 2010 but there was no part of the install that put the car in that class other than Choice.
> 
> Some people enjoy a challenge
Click to expand...


----------



## MacLeod

asota said:


> So if that is the case Tom Shaw (for example) if not for his seat mod, should be running in street class. I may be wrong but I don't know of any fully sponsored cars running in Master class.


Master is an elective class as well. Its considered the "best of the best" and the top class in MECA so people like him and Matt Roberts jump in there to compete on the highest level.


----------



## highly

Mic10is said:


> my BMW won Extreme in 2010 but there was no part of the install that put the car in that class other than Choice.
> 
> Some people enjoy a challenge


:thumbsup:
Same with my Modex car playing in Extreme. Makes you work for it.


----------



## darrenforeal

I read the rule book, but I have a quick question on interpretation of the rules. Say your car has OE speakers locations in the kickpanels (5.25 inch), dash (2in) and tweeter sails (1inch). Then while retaining the speakers OE axis placement, you put 6.5ish inch in the kick panels and 3 inch in the dash by adding a slight "pod" to the dash to accommodate the extra size would you be able to go into modified street or would you have to be in modified?


----------



## Mic10is

darrenforeal said:


> I read the rule book, but I have a quick question on interpretation of the rules. Say your car has OE speakers locations in the kickpanels (5.25 inch), dash (2in) and tweeter sails (1inch). Then while retaining the speakers OE axis placement, you put 6.5ish inch in the kick panels and 3 inch in the dash by adding a slight "pod" to the dash to accommodate the extra size would you be able to go into modified street or would you have to be in modified?


Mod-Street
Overall installation in front of the B-Pillar should still retain a stock appearance 
B) Stock speaker locations may be modiﬁed, altered, or cut to accommodate aftermarket drivers. Door panels, grill covers, etc., must 
still retain a factory appearance and speakers may not be externally vented.


a POD of any sort is not retaining the factory appearance.


----------



## darrenforeal

Mic10is said:


> Mod-Street
> Overall installation in front of the B-Pillar should still retain a stock appearance
> B) Stock speaker locations may be modiﬁed, altered, or cut to accommodate aftermarket drivers. Door panels, grill covers, etc., must
> still retain a factory appearance and speakers may not be externally vented.
> 
> 
> a POD of any sort is not retaining the factory appearance.


yeah read that. thanks, and I think that was my conclusion too. I guess retaining factory appearance is slightly vague if you are hoping for something else. These are mine and I was hoping for modified street, but I dunno.



















this is what the OE dash looks like


----------



## Mic10is

I would rule that as Modified.


----------



## darrenforeal

Mic10is said:


> I would rule that as Modified.


cool. not what I wanted to hear, but thanks.lol


----------



## MacLeod

I agree with Mic. If those stock speaker locations were 3's then youd be golden but having to modify the dash like that bumps you up to modified. Great! Thats all I need. More competition. How am I ever supposed to win if people keep entering my class?!


----------



## darrenforeal

MacLeod said:


> I agree with Mic. If those stock speaker locations were 3's then youd be golden but having to modify the dash like that bumps you up to modified. Great! Thats all I need. More competition. How am I ever supposed to win if people keep entering my class?!


trust me, I'm not thrilled either.... Now I might as well put L8SEs in the kicks, L4SEs in the dash and L1 pro r2s in the sails in order to actually be competitive


----------



## chefhow

darrenforeal said:


> trust me, I'm not thrilled either.... Now I might as well put *L8SEs in the kicks, L4SEs in the dash and L1 pro r2s in the sails in order to actually be competitive*



That would more than likely move you up to ModEx.


----------



## DarkKnight826

darrenforeal said:


> I read the rule book, but I have a quick question on interpretation of the rules. Say your car has OE speakers locations in the kickpanels (5.25 inch), dash (2in) and tweeter sails (1inch). Then while retaining the speakers OE axis placement, you put 6.5ish inch in the kick panels and 3 inch in the dash by adding a slight "pod" to the dash to accommodate the extra size would you be able to go into modified street or would you have to be in modified?[/QUOTE
> 
> I would have to say you would be in Modified. Any tyoe of pod is not allowed until this class. But you should always get clarification about rules questions from Steve, or if you can get a hold of him, Vinny. Always a good source of knowledge.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

darrenforeal said:


> trust me, I'm not thrilled either.... Now I might as well put L8SEs in the kicks, L4SEs in the dash and L1 pro r2s in the sails in order to actually be competitive


Dont feel too bad, I've never competed (and this is my first audio build) and yet I'll be starting in either Extreme or Master class due to the relocation of my gauge cluster and rebuild of the top half of the dash.


----------



## MacLeod

Ouch. Nothing like jumping right into the buzzsaw. LOL.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Yep, was in modex, only due to external venting on my kicks and relocating the seat further back, and before I got to compete, I had an issue that damaged my kick mounted mids. 

Now the mids (very large ones) are going in the dash, because I just cant help myself, since the dash is huge for the car, and the seats getting moved even further back.


----------



## minibox

Most of the Meca tracks can be downloaded off hdtracks in 96kHz/24 bit. It's pretty discouraging to listen to these tracks in hi-res on my home setup then sit in the car after hours of tuning and still not come close.


----------



## darrenforeal

yeah read that. thanks, and I think that was my conclusion too.


----------



## dietDrThunder

Rule suggestion:

At Freeze Fest, my new buddy Gil was told that his no-cd digital media HU was not allowed, as it was a requirement to have a CD player to play the source material.

It's 2012. HU's w/ no cd are more and more popular all the time. It would be very simple, and inexpensive for judges to also carry a USB drive loaded with whatever source material (ripped lossless, of course) is needed for judging. You'd only need space for a handful of material, so the drives would be small and cheap.

In my opinion. requiring CDs in 2012 is a backwards-looking stance to take. Lets have it be seen that MECA is FORWARD looking, and build in a cd-less option now. It's not even specified in the rules for 2012 either way, so all you'd need to do is issue the fobs w/ the sound files on them to the judges, and allow their use.

CLICK HERE to see an example of a very durable 8BG stick, available for $9 ea. I would contribute to a fund to accomplish this, and I'm sure others (Gil) would too.


----------



## Mic10is

dietDrThunder said:


> Rule suggestion:
> 
> At Freeze Fest, my new buddy Gil was told that his no-cd digital media HU was not allowed, as it was a requirement to have a CD player to play the source material.
> 
> It's 2012. HU's w/ no cd are more and more popular all the time. It would be very simple, and inexpensive for judges to also carry a USB drive loaded with whatever source material (ripped lossless, of course) is needed for judging. You'd only need space for a handful of material, so the drives would be small and cheap.
> 
> In my opinion. requiring CDs in 2012 is a backwards-looking stance to take. Lets have it be seen that MECA is FORWARD looking, and build in a cd-less option now. It's not even specified in the rules for 2012 either way, so all you'd need to do is issue the fobs w/ the sound files on them to the judges, and allow their use.
> 
> CLICK HERE to see an example of a very durable 8BG stick, available for $9 ea. I would contribute to a fund to accomplish this, and I'm sure others (Gil) would too.



I cannot argue with this at all bc you have very valid points.
I will say that MECA is working on making a revision for the rules NEXT season to allow for digital media.
whether it be through media sticks or Ipod or other devices--it is in the works.

IASCA already has a provision in place where the Judge will either already have a source available ,be it Ipod, phone or other devices OR...the disc will be downloaded directly to the competitors device at the show.

Here is why the rules are the way they are---The "fear" or concern is that competitors could manipulate the tracks before loading it into their own devices beforehand.
This could be deemed as an unfair advantage.

But realistically, when we tune our cars, we manipulate the tracks with TA and EQ etc....


So rest assured, its on its way...but the current rules do not allow it

Gil has a slick install and a very nice sounding car, I advise him to email Dave Hogan
[email protected]

He is apart of Rules and Ethics committee and is great at making sure all competitors concerns or questions about rules gets thoroughly reviewed and he will get back to you after he is able to get an answer.
sometimes, it takes a few weeks for the group to come to a consensus but he is great about getting back to people.

I asked something last year, and he said hed Have R&E look into it. I completely forgot about it and moved forward...but 3 weeks later he emailed that my request was approved


----------



## chefhow

dietDrThunder said:


> Rule suggestion:
> 
> At Freeze Fest, my new buddy Gil was told that his no-cd digital media HU was not allowed, as it was a requirement to have a CD player to play the source material.
> 
> It's 2012. HU's w/ no cd are more and more popular all the time. It would be very simple, and inexpensive for judges to also carry a USB drive loaded with whatever source material (ripped lossless, of course) is needed for judging. You'd only need space for a handful of material, so the drives would be small and cheap.
> 
> In my opinion. requiring CDs in 2012 is a backwards-looking stance to take. Lets have it be seen that MECA is FORWARD looking, and build in a cd-less option now. It's not even specified in the rules for 2012 either way, so all you'd need to do is issue the fobs w/ the sound files on them to the judges, and allow their use.
> 
> CLICK HERE to see an example of a very durable 8BG stick, available for $9 ea. I would contribute to a fund to accomplish this, and I'm sure others (Gil) would too.


This has been discussed for years. It MAY happen for 2013 but it wont happen any time this year.


----------



## MacLeod

Mic10is said:


> Here is why the rules are the way they are---The "fear" or concern is that competitors could manipulate the tracks before loading it into their own devices beforehand.
> This could be deemed as an unfair advantage.
> 
> But realistically, when we tune our cars, we manipulate the tracks with TA and EQ etc....


This is the reservation I have with it as well. The difference is that we tune for the CD as a whole. The concern would be to set up different EQ curves per track. So you could crank up the midbass for Sweet Georgia Brown then have it cut nice and clean for Spanish Harlem. 

By using a CD, you cant do that. Your curve has to be the same for all tracks.


----------



## Mic10is

Here is an part of an email from the MECA commissioner himself, Steve Stern. We were discussing the new CD


_Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 11:52 AM

Yep, win win, for sure. I am really excited about being able to bring a new disc to our Members. For next year, we are going to have to address the "phasing out" of the CD medium, and the reality of file storage and logistics. But, we'll have a great disc, and tracks, to work with. 


MECA, Inc.
Mobile Electronics Competition Association, Inc.
5308 Brick Church Pike
Goodlettsville, TN 37072-9014_


----------



## USDMBB

Will these tracks be used at the show in California the same weekend as SBN?


----------



## Mic10is

DISC WILL NOT BE READY TILL MAY 1
NEW MECA Disc is being produced in conjunction with ARC AUDIO's DEMO Disc


----------



## MacLeod

Mic10is said:


> DISC WILL NOT BE READY TILL MAY 1
> NEW MECA Disc is being produced in conjunction with ARC AUDIO's DEMO Disc


Man, they just just wait til next year to release it then. Half the season will be over when it gets out. From what I've heard of it, itll use a little different tune than the Chesky disc.


----------



## Mic10is

MacLeod said:


> Man, they just just wait til next year to release it then. Half the season will be over when it gets out. From what I've heard of it, itll use a little different tune than the Chesky disc.


not really. It has more bass in general than the Chesky Disc.
But I tuned with it and it made Chesky Disc sound better.

tune for realism, not the disc


----------



## highly

MacLeod said:


> ...itll use a little different tune than the Chesky disc.


I think you mean that it will highlight different failures of a tune. The current disk has a couple of places where you can 'get away with' issues that this new disk doesn't hide. A proper tune shouldn't change with the disk.


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> Here is why the rules are the way they are---The "fear" or concern is that competitors could manipulate the tracks before loading it into their own devices beforehand.
> This could be deemed as an unfair advantage.





MacLeod said:


> This is the reservation I have with it as well. The difference is that we tune for the CD as a whole. The concern would be to set up different EQ curves per track. So you could crank up the midbass for Sweet Georgia Brown then have it cut nice and clean for Spanish Harlem.
> 
> By using a CD, you cant do that. Your curve has to be the same for all tracks.


...which is why the judges need to carry usb drives. I didn't suggest having the entrants use their own source material.

I'm a new guy, so I didn't know that this had been brought up multiple times before. It's so simple and cheap that it's kinda lame that it hasn't been addressed by now. This is even the kind of thing that can be introduced mid-season. After all, the official 2012 rule book wasn't available until just a few weeks before the first event, so it's not like there was a concern for people to be able to design and build systems to the rules.

Anyway, thanks for listening.


----------



## highly

Personally I don't understand the 'fear' aspect. Or how manipulating the tracks - if someone decided to do that - would be 'cheating' or 'unfair'. If a person had the degree of skill necessary to pull that off to the benefit of the listening experience, then why not?

It is completely possible to read the CRC from an inserted disk, determine which disk it is, determine which track is being played, and then replay some <other> material (say the 24/96 FLAC versions) of a track in place of the actual audio contained on the disk. Every track could then have its own EQ, it's own T/A, it's own Magic Width Enhancer... so what? If a competitor had the skills, ability, and money to DO such a thing then more power to them. In the end if the system is significantly better as a result then why is it cheating and which rule does it break?

Taking a step back and doing the same thing WITHOUT substituting a different source track - just having the ability to recognize a track and apply a separate EQ for instance. Is that cheating? Or is that maximizing the playback potential of the system?

What if a competitor had a satellite uplink and video feeds of the judges during the listening session, and a remote operator tuned the car 'live' based on facial microexpressions of the judges so as to maximize their listening pleasure? Would that be cheating? 

How does that differ from having a steering algorithm in your processor of choice that performs bass management and center image steering based on acoustical feedback optimization?

How is that any different than having ninja install skills that results in a better presentation in the first place without the million-dollar uplink?

Do the rules explicitly indicate -or even allude to- the idea that the material heard must be the inserted source material?


-Todd


----------



## dietDrThunder

highly said:


> What if a competitor had a satellite uplink and video feeds of the judges during the listening session, and a remote operator tuned the car 'live' based on facial microexpressions of the judges so as to maximize their listening pleasure? Would that be cheating?


I would like to take this opportunity to say for the record that this is not expressly forbidden in the rules. See you guys this weekend...


----------



## highly

How about this as a hypothetical situation: In an attempt to thwart the use of an alternate media swapping method, the Judge at a competition decides to use an alternate language version of the Chesky disk. Said disk contains the same material as the English Language version with the exception that the announcer tracks are in German. Is this allowed by the rules? It is still a commercially produced instance of the Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disk, but it is not the one provided through MECA. 

The rules state:


> 5. The Judge’s competition CD, the Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disc, will be used during scoring. Judges may use 2 songs from the popular domain, stipulated at the beginning of the season, in additon to the Chesky CD.


Should the Judge be called out on it? I say no. It's within his rights. However, he _did _use different media in an attempt to catch competitors off guard and protect against something that isn't in the rulebook (That the sound heard by the judge came from the media inserted into the CD player).

What point am I trying to make? 
I don't see the use of alternate media as a problem based on the rules as written. In the 2009 or 2010 (I think) rulebook it (alternate media) was allowed at the Judge's discretion when provided (optionally) by the judging staff. That rule should be reintroduced.

In the lower classes I do see areas where the media could be tailored to the advantage of the competitor due to a lack of processing capabilities (as allowed by the rules). Recording the system response, generating FIR filters, and post-processing the media for better in-car response is a valid and workable concern. The resulting files played back and audibly compared to the original disk would immediately illustrate this tactic to the judge however, so a cursory check for such an event could be made to alleviate that concern. With that stipulation, I would have no issue with allowing the competitor to supply the media.

-Todd


----------



## MacLeod

highly said:


> I think you mean that it will highlight different failures of a tune. The current disk has a couple of places where you can 'get away with' issues that this new disk doesn't hide. A proper tune shouldn't change with the disk.


Sure it does. Not all discs are recorded the same and not all types of music sound best with the same EQ. Some CD's are much hotter in the high end and others are very weak in the low end. Rock music sounds better with boosted low end while jazz doesn't and so on. 

The Chesky disc is a pain cause it has lots of stand up bass but virtually no punchy, energetic bass. The kick drums in track 17 and 29 are very weak. You build up the energy there and Spanish Harlem becomes a SPL drive by song. You get Spanish Harlem's stand up bass nice and smooth and you castrate the punch of 17 and 29. And don't even get me started on the exaggerated "foot tap". 

This new CD, what little I've hears of it, doesn't seem to have the boomy 63-100 Hz of Chesky so you should be able to dial in some more energy and punch without killing other tracks.


----------



## highly

MacLeod said:


> Sure it does. Not all discs are recorded the same and not all types of music sound best with the same EQ. Some CD's are much hotter in the high end and others are very weak in the low end. Rock music sounds better with boosted low end while jazz doesn't and so on.
> 
> The Chesky disc is a pain cause it has lots of stand up bass but virtually no punchy, energetic bass. The kick drums in track 17 and 29 are very weak. You build up the energy there and Spanish Harlem becomes a SPL drive by song. You get Spanish Harlem's stand up bass nice and smooth and you castrate the punch of 17 and 29. And don't even get me started on the exaggerated "foot tap".
> 
> This new CD, what little I've hears of it, doesn't seem to have the boomy 63-100 Hz of Chesky so you should be able to dial in some more energy and punch without killing other tracks.


I think it's best if we agree to disagree here. One argument is for reproducing what is on the recording even if it isn't pleasant, the other favors recreating an experience that the listener believes the material should portray. We've both read the threads that turn the two sides of this argument into jihad, and I have no interest in that.

I will accept that given your argument the new disk would require a different tuning strategy than the UDD if you will accept that I won't tune my car any differently for it. How's that? 

-T


----------



## MacLeod

highly said:


> I think it's best if we agree to disagree here. One argument is for reproducing what is on the recording even if it isn't pleasant, the other favors recreating an experience that the listener believes the material should portray.


Nah, we're on the same page brother and actually both right. 

I'm talking about making a CD sound the best it can by adjusting the EQ differently for different types of music and recording styles. 

You're talking about reproducing it as the recording engineer intended by using a more "neutral" EQ and would work the same for all CD's because you're balancing out your system so that it plays the source signal transparently. 

Neither way is wrong. Its just two different ways of doing it.


----------



## dietDrThunder

I have another unrelated question...

What is an "OEM-specific" dash pad?

Follow-up question: My car is now built to 'street' rules (for those who know me now, I have ditched the pods and flush-mounted the tweeters in the dash). I was planning on having an upholstery shop make me a nice dash pad, but the guy suggested that it would look nicer if I actually had him upholster the dash in cloth rather than have a pad on top of it. Can I do that and be street still?

There is no difference sonically...I'd just rather have the nicer look. I think a dash pads have a very 'JC Whitney' look about them, and would rather not have one on my dash.

Thanks!


----------



## Mic10is

dietDrThunder said:


> I have another unrelated question...
> 
> What is an "OEM-specific" dash pad?
> 
> Follow-up question: My car is now built to 'street' rules (for those who know me now, I have ditched the pods and flush-mounted the tweeters in the dash). I was planning on having an upholstery shop make me a nice dash pad, but the guy suggested that it would look nicer if I actually had him upholster the dash in cloth rather than have a pad on top of it. Can I do that and be street still?
> 
> There is no difference sonically...I'd just rather have the nicer look. I think a dash pads have a very 'JC Whitney' look about them, and would rather not have one on my dash.
> 
> Thanks!


OEM dash pad is one that can be purchased by anyone commercially.
You cannot modify it in anyway.
reupholstering your dash would be considered a dash modification which would put you in Modex.
in Street you are limited to acoustical treatments up to 1/2"


----------



## MacLeod

For Street, the only thing you can put on your dash is a Dashmat or something like that. You can't make your own without being bumped to Modified I think (don't think Mod Street allows anything other than Dashmat either).


----------



## chefhow

MacLeod said:


> For Street, the only thing you can put on your dash is a Dashmat or something like that. You can't make your own without being bumped to Modified I think (don't think Mod Street allows anything other than Dashmat either).


You are correct!! 

At Finals I had to remove my dash mat completely because it was "custom made" (a piece of 1/4" speaker box carpet custom cut to my dash since one was not available on the market or made by a commercial company) according to Vinny. It was cut in Mic's garage at 11 pm one night on a whim to see if there was a diiference.


----------



## decibelle

What are the limitations (if any) on dash mats/other acoustic treatments on the dash for Modex? Basically can I just get away with virtually anything?


----------



## asota

Mic10is said:


> OEM dash pad is one that can be purchased by anyone commercially.
> You cannot modify it in anyway.
> reupholstering your dash would be considered a dash modification which would put you in Modex.
> in Street you are limited to acoustical treatments up to 1/2"


Correct on commercial dash cover only, but no acoustical treatments of 1/2 inch may be used at all unless they are built into commercial dash pad of witch I don't believe there are any.


----------



## pionkej

millerlyte said:


> What are the limitations (if any) on dash mats/other acoustic treatments on the dash for Modex? Basically can I just get away with virtually anything?


1" thick is the limit in MODEX.


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> OEM dash pad is one that can be purchased by anyone commercially.
> You cannot modify it in anyway.
> reupholstering your dash would be considered a dash modification which would put you in Modex.
> in Street you are limited to acoustical treatments up to 1/2"


I am glad to hear that re: the OEM thing, as the one I bought is specific to my car, but not made by the OEM.

OK, so I read the rules, which said that in 'street' I can flush mount my tweeters in the dash (I'm the guy who had the round pods on the dash at Freeze Fest). The rules also say that I can use a dash mat, which I ordered last week (before it occurred to me to upholster it instead). The dash mat would cover the tweeters, so I would have to cut holes in it so that my tweeters would not be covered.

This is not an illegal modification as per the rules for 'street' in the 2012 rule book. I just re-read the rules, and it says nothing in there about not being able to modify the mat in any way. The dash pad line item reads as follows:

_B) Dash Pads may be installed, but must be OEM specific and no more than ½” thick._

That's it...there is nothing there about not cutting tweeter holes in it to allow for the otherwise-legal flush-mounted tweeters.

As far as upholstering the dash, the rules for 'stock' (which apply to 'street') say that "*Modifications or upgrades to a vehicle’s interior*, exterior, engine, or related components *do not necessarily move a vehicle to a higher class unless those modifications* or upgrades *are done to improve the sound quality system beyond the limits outlined in the Verification Criteria.*" This is a part of the rules that applies to both classes (I know that dash pads are not legal for stock).

Upholstering the dash in a thin-ish (thinner than an, 'oem-specific dash pad) would not be done to improve the sound quality system beyond the limits outlined in the Verification Criteria. If the fabric were thinner and less dense than a legal dash pad (which is will be) then there would be no basis to move the car out of 'street' based on the dash upholstery, as I read the rules, because a dash pad is legal. Therefore, the upholstery would not be an upgrade that qualifies as "beyond the limits outlined in the Verification Criteria."

I'm not trying to be difficult, but the whole point of rules in organized competition is to provide a standard, clearly defined and strictly enforced framework that competitors can trust as being enforced to the letter. There isn't anything in the printed rules about either of the above items that you're saying are illegal (holes in the dash pad) or would move me up three classes (non-dense or thick dash upholstery).

Thoughts?


----------



## asota

From the way I read the rules you may surface mount a tweeter but if you cut a hole in dash to flush mount them you would move to mod-x. You may not use any accoustic treatment at all (till modified) other than a commercial dash cover. You cann't even leave you polishing rag on your console as this could move you to modified. They aren't that big of pricks they will just ask you to move it.


----------



## dietDrThunder

asota said:


> From the way I read the rules you may surface mount a tweeter but if you cut a hole in dash to flush mount them you would move to mod-x. You may not use any accoustic treatment at all (till modified) other than a commercial dash cover. You cann't even leave you polishing rag on your console as this could move you to modified. They aren't that big of pricks they will just ask you to move it.


The rules don't support either of those things. Regarding the tweeters...here is the rule in the 'street' section.

_Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install._

Generally speaking, it isn't possible to flush mount tweeters w/o cutting something. We're not talking about oem-spot replacements either, as the above rule is specifically referring to the allowed extra set of tweeters.

Also, If you re-read my post above, you'll see that the upholstery I'm referring to does not meet the definition of an illegal mod, as it is not an acoustic treatment (and it really isn't intended as one...I was still going to use the dash mat at competitions...this is an aesthetic modification).


----------



## MacLeod

You can cut a hole in your dash to mount one pair of 2" or less tweeters and still be OK for Street. As for a Dashmat, you can lay it over your tweeters and they'll fire right thru with no problem if its the basic model. If you buy their suede model mat, you'll probably want to cut holes for the tweets to fire thru.


----------



## dietDrThunder

MacLeod said:


> You can cut a hole in your dash to mount one pair of 2" or less tweeters and still be OK for Street. As for a Dashmat, you can lay it over your tweeters and they'll fire right thru with no problem if its the basic model. If you buy their suede model mat, you'll probably want to cut holes for the tweets to fire thru.


Thanks for that...yes that is exactly what I read in the rules. I'm not trying to be a cheater here...I mean my entire system all together cost less than $1500...it's not like I'm trying to rape the 'street' class with my ultra-baller system. I just want to trust that the rules will be enforced as they are actually written. If the 2013 rules say that dash mats can't have holes for tweeters cut in them, then I'll be back in 2013 with an un-holey dash mat


----------



## bmiller1

dietDrThunder said:


> Upholstering the dash in a thin-ish (thinner than an, 'oem-specific dash pad) would not be done to improve the sound quality system beyond the limits outlined in the Verification Criteria. If the fabric were thinner and less dense than a legal dash pad (which is will be) then there would be no basis to move the car out of 'street' based on the dash upholstery, as I read the rules, because a dash pad is legal. Therefore, the upholstery would not be an upgrade that qualifies as "beyond the limits outlined in the Verification Criteria."


I know you got the answer you wanted but, as far as ^^^ this goes, I think it's because you would be modifying the interior without maintaining the OEM appearance.

At FF, I had my tweeters surface mounted in the pillar because I wanted to make sure that's where I wanted them aimed. This weekend we're going to glass them in and I bought some vinyl that matches the interior. However, my pillars (though they look vinyl) are plastic. Vinny said if I wrap them, I'm in Modified because the OEM appearance is plastic. If I dye them, I stay in street. So there's that.


----------



## Darth SQ

bmiller1 said:


> Vinny said if I wrap them, I'm in Modified because the OEM appearance is plastic. If I dye them, I stay in street. So there's that.


Shhhhhhhhh.
Don't tell anyone, but vinyl is plastic. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## dietDrThunder

bmiller1 said:


> I know you got the answer you wanted but, as far as ^^^ this goes, I think it's because you would be modifying the interior without maintaining the OEM appearance.
> 
> At FF, I had my tweeters surface mounted in the pillar because I wanted to make sure that's where I wanted them aimed. This weekend we're going to glass them in and I bought some vinyl that matches the interior. However, my pillars (though they look vinyl) are plastic. Vinny said if I wrap them, I'm in Modified because the OEM appearance is plastic. If I dye them, I stay in street. So there's that.


This is interesting, and brings up a possibly valid alternative interpretation of the 'oem appearance' aspect that (unlike previous posts) does not run counter to the wording in the rule book. I was led to believe that 'oem appearance' meant shapes, holes, glassed-up pods, and the like. Based on conversations I had with Steve and Vinny, I would not have thought that covering the pillars with vinyl would move you out of street. To be fair, I did not specifically ask that question however.

This is clearly an area that is lacking definition in the rule book, so should not be judged harshly in the 2012 season.

But...by this interpretation though, it would mean that if the only color your a-pillars came in was black, and you dyed them grey, then that would not maintain oem appearance. Or, if I had my black cloth seats re-done in red but my model wasn't available in red in my year, that I'd be in violation of the rules.

All of this said, now that you make this point I agree that the cloth covering of the dash may not fit the spirit of the rule, so I will not do that. I will have it done in black vinyl instead, so that it maintains the oem appearance (it's black vinyll now). I was never going for an acoustic improvement...purely appearance. I like the look of some contrast stitching on upholstery, so that's what I was going for.


----------



## bmiller1

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Shhhhhhhhh.
> Don't tell anyone, but vinyl is plastic.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


I personally would prefer you tell someone (particularly MECA). Then, I'd have a use for the 2 yards of vinyl that's sitting in my closet.


----------



## Mic10is

I dont think U can cut holes in the DASH to mount tweeters, that falls under Modex bc its a dash modification.
Apillars, sail panels YES. Kick Panels typically NO for under Mod Street.
BUt modifying the dash, which cutting a hole anywhere is considered a modification and in the dash especially would fall under Modex.


----------



## asota

I do have a ??? about Mod St the rule says you can run a pair of speakers up to 6 1/2'' in kicks plus a tweeter. Can you run 4'' mid tweet and 6 1/2'' mid-bass in kicks in Mod St ??


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> I dont think U can cut holes in the DASH to mount tweeters, that falls under Modex bc its a dash modification.
> Apillars, sail panels YES. Kick Panels typically NO for under Mod Street.
> BUt modifying the dash, which cutting a hole anywhere is considered a modification and in the dash especially would fall under Modex.


The rules for stock specifically state that you can add an extra set of tweeters, and you can flush mount them. How would you flush mount a set of tweeters that did not come with your car w/o cutting something to mount them in?


----------



## dietDrThunder

I was just re-reading, and I wanted to clarify the whoel stock/street tweeter mounting thing.

Here is the line item from item I) in the 'stock' rules.

_I.) ...Tweeters may be mounted on door panels, dash, or A-pillars with basic hardware, but no tweeter pods or build-outs are permitted. Door panels
may not be modified in any way._​
Here is the item from the 'street' rules concerning the flush mounting...

E)*Except for the following exceptions*, _cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash modifications are prohibited:
1. <unrelated>
2. Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install._​
So it is clear that flush mounting tweeters in the dash is within the 'street' rules.

Now, with regard to the previous post about wrapping the pillars not being 'factory appearance...' Check this out, from the 'street' rules...

E) Except for the following exceptions, cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash modifications are prohibited:
1. <unrelated>
2. <unrelated>.
3. *The factory radio opening may be modified to accept up to a double din radio, but nut maintain a factory appearance.*​
It appears to me that the spirit of the "oem appearance" parts of the 'stock' rules is that the finished look ends up looking like something the OEM would or could have done (which is a quote from Vinnie at FF when I asked for an explanation). In other words, if you didn't know better you'd assume that what you're looking at was stock. I don't see how wrapping the a-pillars which have not been modified shape-wise, with matching vinyl is not 'oem appearance' but cutting a double sized hole in the dash is. Even more important is that the rules state that "tweeters may be custom mounted in pods if they are designed to give a factory look to the install." How can a pod build be legal but a vinyl pillar wrap w/ no pod not be legal? I just don't see how that makes any sense at all.

Just so you know, I'm not even considering wrapping my a pillars, I just like clear and fair rules is all. Ans, I greatly appreciate all of the effort that the MECA folks put forth, so please, I hope nobody is taking offense at this conversation. It is 100% meant in a constructive way.

Also, by no means am I trying to go for a 'stretching' of rules here at all. What I'm trying to do is get folks to carefully read the rulebook line by line, and agree that enforcement of the rules will be consistent and not exceed the letter of the rules.

This oem appearance question is definitely a grey area, as appearance is a subjective area. Hopefully we can get some clarity and specific definitions in there for next year...there's certainly plenty of time to do that.

To that end, I have virtually no experience in these competitions, but I have lots of experience creating rule sets for competition (mostly from several different forms of racing). I will volunteer to help with this for next year if anyone is interested.


----------



## Noobdelux

good points there


----------



## chefhow

dietDrThunder said:


> I was just re-reading, and I wanted to clarify the whoel stock/street tweeter mounting thing.
> 
> Here is the line item from item I) in the 'stock' rules.
> 
> _I.) ...Tweeters may be mounted *on* door panels, dash, or A-pillars with basic hardware, but no tweeter pods or build-outs are permitted. Door panels
> may not be modified in any way._​
> 
> Here is the item from the 'street' rules concerning the flush mounting...
> 
> E)*Except for the following exceptions*, _*cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash modifications are prohibited:*1. <unrelated>
> 2. Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install._​
> So it is clear that flush mounting tweeters in the dash is within the 'street' rules.
> 
> Now, with regard to the previous post about wrapping the pillars not being 'factory appearance...' Check this out, from the 'street' rules...
> 
> E) Except for the following exceptions, cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash modifications are prohibited:
> 1. <unrelated>
> 2. <unrelated>.
> 3. *The factory radio opening may be modified to accept up to a double din radio, but nut maintain a factory appearance.*​
> It appears to me that the spirit of the "oem appearance" parts of the 'stock' rules is that the finished look ends up looking like something the OEM would or could have done (which is a quote from Vinnie at FF when I asked for an explanation). In other words, if you didn't know better you'd assume that what you're looking at was stock. I don't see how wrapping the a-pillars which have not been modified shape-wise, with matching vinyl is not 'oem appearance' but cutting a double sized hole in the dash is. Even more important is that the rules state that "tweeters may be custom mounted in pods if they are designed to give a factory look to the install." How can a pod build be legal but a vinyl pillar wrap w/ no pod not be legal? I just don't see how that makes any sense at all.
> 
> *Because what you are doing is a potential sound treatment to the car and other than a dashmat and damping NON are allowed. Its not about asthetics at that point is about sound.*
> 
> Just so you know, I'm not even considering wrapping my a pillars, I just like clear and fair rules is all. Ans, I greatly appreciate all of the effort that the MECA folks put forth, so please, I hope nobody is taking offense at this conversation. It is 100% meant in a constructive way.
> 
> Also, by no means am I trying to go for a 'stretching' of rules here at all. What I'm trying to do is get folks to carefully read the rulebook line by line, and agree that enforcement of the rules will be consistent and not exceed the letter of the rules.
> 
> This oem appearance question is definitely a grey area, as appearance is a subjective area. Hopefully we can get some clarity and specific definitions in there for next year...there's certainly plenty of time to do that.
> 
> To that end, I have virtually no experience in these competitions, but I have lots of experience creating rule sets for competition (mostly from several different forms of racing). I will volunteer to help with this for next year if anyone is interested.


If you look at where I emphasized a few things you are NOT allowed to do ANY cutting to your dash AT ALL according the rules in any class BELOW ModEX. If they make that exception for you it will open up a HUGE can of worms. I can make the dash in my new car look 100% factory and add a pair of mids and you would never see anything but a factory matched grill. That is not allowed because ANY DASH MOD is automatically putting you in ModEx. I am letting you know in advance so when you get put up there you arent surprised or shocked. If you havent cut the holes DONT DO IT. Mount the tweeters in the bottoms of your a pillars and call it a day.

Remember, Street takes the Stock rules and builds upon what you can do. You CAN add tweeters to your doors and a pillars in Stock as long as they are surface mounted. When you move up to Street you CAN add tweeters to your doors or a pillars but they can now be molded into them and flush mounted. It NEVER mentions anything about the dash.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I dont think the rules state that. It very clearly lists flush mounting the tweeters as an "exception" to the ban of cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash. If that is not the case, the word exception has to be taken out, and it simply needs to say no dash modifications, period.

Doesnt affect me, but the way its written (in some stupid case that it became a legal issue), would be interpreted by lawyers to mean that flush mounting tweeters was the exception to the no cutting rules.


----------



## chefhow

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I dont think the rules state that. It very clearly lists flush mounting the tweeters as an "exception" to the ban of cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash. If that is not the case, the word exception has to be taken out, and it simply needs to say no dash modifications, period.
> 
> Doesnt affect me, but the way its written (in some stupid case that it became a legal issue), would be interpreted by lawyers to mean that flush mounting tweeters was the exception to the no cutting rules.


If you read it again it very specifically states that the exception is to the flush mounting in the doors or a pillars not to the dash cutting.


----------



## dietDrThunder

chefhow said:


> If you read it again it very specifically states that the exception is to the flush mounting in the doors or a pillars not to the dash cutting.


I am not trying to have a big Internet argument here, but this is simply not correct. There is nothing at all in there about doors or pillars. If you read it again, it clearly states that flush mounting tweeters is an exception to that rule. Here is the entire line again...

_2. Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install._​
Note that there is no reference in the definition of this exception to the 'no cutting' rule that mentions anything about doors, dash boards, or anything else.

That's why the very sentence you made large and bold starts with "Except for the following exceptions." It says this, then goes on to specifically list flush mounting tweeters as a clearly defined exception to the directive. There is nothing at all ambiguous there. If you re-write the sentence to address just the one item we're talking about here, it reads as follows:

_Except for [flush mounting tweeters], cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash modifications are prohibited._

It can't be written any more clearly than that...this is exactly what the rules state, in clear language. If you don't agree, then please explain what the phrase "Except for the following exceptions" means in there if it doesn't mean that those items that follow the sentence aren't exceptions. 

Now, with regard to the a-pillar wrapping, if it is a valid argument that the vinyl wrap is an acoustic treatment, then you absolutely have a valid point there. If vinyl wrapping is an acoustic treatment, then it is clearly not legal according to the rules. This is also not ambiguous. I did not realize that this would (or might) be an acoustic treatment.


----------



## dietDrThunder

Oh, and Chef...I know that you have forgotten more about car audio competition that I'll ever know. I am confident that you know what the intent of the rule is. I'm only speaking to what the rules actually say. If the intent is to not allow flush mounting tweeters in the dash, then the rules should specifically state that there is no cutting or modification of the dash allowed in those classes. As it stands now, there is a clearly defined exception to that rule that includes flush mounting tweeters.


----------



## asota

It says flush suface or custom mount IN PODS no way would you be able to flush mount in doors even let alone the dash> The intent is to allow a-piller or sail panel tweeter pods.......


----------



## dietDrThunder

asota said:


> It says flush suface or custom mount IN PODS no way would you be able to flush mount in doors even let alone the dash> The intent is to allow a-piller or sail panel tweeter pods.......


No, those are three separate things. Flush mounting, surface mounting, and mounting in pods. I mean, what exactly would 'flush surface mounting in pods' mean? That doesn't even make sense.


----------



## chefhow

The rules is written to be built upon the already set rules of Stock not as a new set. Stock allows for surface mounted tweeters to the doors, sails or pillars. Steet allows you to flush mount in those locations. That is it. If you want clarification I would say to email Vinny or Steve but I can tell you that the second you show up with a cut dash you are in ModEx, even if it is just a 1" hole its still a hole that has been cut.


----------



## asota

2. Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install.

This is the rule word for word for optional tweeter mounting where does it say tweeters can be mounted any where but in pods ??


----------



## MacLeod

You can cut holes in the dash to flush mount tweeters. Kirk and myself both ran tweets flush mounted in the dash for years in Street. So long as its a tweeter under 2", its allowed. You cut holes to mount a 3" mid and you're bumped to ModEx. 

I'm also gonna disagree with Vinny on wrapping the pillars. If your A pillars came stock with no wrapping on them, they can NOT be wrapped and stay in Street. I pitched this to the R&E guys a few years back cause I was wanting to wrap my pillars in grill cloth which is totally transparent acoustically. They said no because it came off the showroom floor with no wrapping on them regardless of what color they're dyed, you've got material on your pillars that wasn't there OEM. Not saying it makes sense, just that is the ruling I got. Now granted that was 2008 so they may have relaxed a little on that.


----------



## asota

So if I cut my dash up and custom mount some 2'' widebanders at a angle away from glass I can run sreet class? As long as grills look as factory as tweeters just flush mounted in dash?


----------



## MacLeod

Best thing to do is email the R&E guys or Steve Stern for an official ruling. No matter how important I think I am, its their opinions that are official and the only ones that matter.


----------



## Mic10is

MacLeod said:


> You can cut holes in the dash to flush mount tweeters. Kirk and myself both ran tweets flush mounted in the dash for years in Street. So long as its a tweeter under 2", its allowed. You cut holes to mount a 3" mid and you're bumped to ModEx.
> 
> I'm also gonna disagree with Vinny on wrapping the pillars. If your A pillars came stock with no wrapping on them, they can NOT be wrapped and stay in Street. I pitched this to the R&E guys a few years back cause I was wanting to wrap my pillars in grill cloth which is totally transparent acoustically. They said no because it came off the showroom floor with no wrapping on them regardless of what color they're dyed, you've got material on your pillars that wasn't there OEM. Not saying it makes sense, just that is the ruling I got. Now granted that was 2008 so they may have relaxed a little on that.


pretty much EVERY car in street the past 2 Finals had Tweeters in their pillars and were rewrapped in some other material.
Im gonna guess theyve relaxed a bit about the rule

But I agree that Judges need to all get on the same page with interpretation.


----------



## bmiller1

MacLeod said:


> I'm also gonna disagree with Vinny on wrapping the pillars. If your A pillars came stock with no wrapping on them, they can NOT be wrapped and stay in Street. I pitched this to the R&E guys a few years back cause I was wanting to wrap my pillars in grill cloth which is totally transparent acoustically. *They said no because it came off the showroom floor with no wrapping on them regardless of what color they're dyed, you've got material on your pillars that wasn't there OEM*. Not saying it makes sense, just that is the ruling I got. Now granted that was 2008 so they may have relaxed a little on that.


FWIW, this the reasoning Vinny gave me. He didn't mention acoustical aspects.


----------



## dietDrThunder

MacLeod said:


> You can cut holes in the dash to flush mount tweeters. Kirk and myself both ran tweets flush mounted in the dash for years in Street. So long as its a tweeter under 2", its allowed. You cut holes to mount a 3" mid and you're bumped to ModEx.
> 
> I'm also gonna disagree with Vinny on wrapping the pillars. If your A pillars came stock with no wrapping on them, they can NOT be wrapped and stay in Street. I pitched this to the R&E guys a few years back cause I was wanting to wrap my pillars in grill cloth which is totally transparent acoustically. They said no because it came off the showroom floor with no wrapping on them regardless of what color they're dyed, you've got material on your pillars that wasn't there OEM. Not saying it makes sense, just that is the ruling I got. Now granted that was 2008 so they may have relaxed a little on that.


To be fair, I think that is actually what Vinnie told the prev. poster...I think you guys are in agreement. It was my conversation with him that _led me to believe) that this wasn't the case, but he did not actually say to me that the covering was allowed. It seems that my interpretation was incorrect in this regard.


----------



## dietDrThunder

asota said:


> 2. Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install.
> 
> This is the rule word for word for optional tweeter mounting where does it say tweeters can be mounted any where but in pods ??


Again, these are three different things. Tweeters may be flush mounted, they may be surface mounted, or they may be custom mounted in pods. Obviously if you are flush mounting or surface mounting tweeters, you aren't putting them in pods.


----------



## dietDrThunder

chefhow said:


> The rules is written to be built upon the already set rules of Stock not as a new set. Stock allows for surface mounted tweeters to the doors, sails or pillars. Steet allows you to flush mount in those locations. That is it. If you want clarification I would say to email Vinny or Steve but I can tell you that the second you show up with a cut dash you are in ModEx, even if it is just a 1" hole its still a hole that has been cut.


I understand what you are saying, but this simply is not what the rule book says.

BTW I am with you that the rules for 'stock' are very clear, in that the extra tweeters can be surface mounted on doors, a-pillars or dash but no pods are allowed. When you move on to the 'street' rules, there is a different set of rules about tweeter mounting that is clearly defined, as discussed earlier. Those exceptions allow for any of the three options listed and there is no limitation specified as to where one can use those mounting methods.

NOTE: if what you guys are trying to say is that the rules are not likely to be enforced the way that they are written, then that is an entirely different (and sad) conversation. I don't think that's the case though. Like I said, I've only been to one event, but I thought the judges were fair, and when I asked questions about rules and such I got honest, transparent answers that made me feel like there is real effort to abide by the rule book and be fair.

If I was right about that, then I stand by what I've written. If I am wrong about that, and you are saying that even though the rules clearly allow it, that flush mounting sub-2" tweeters in the dash would not be allowed in 'street' then, well...that would suck. Not because I need to be in a particular class (I don't care...I was in mod last time because I had styrofoam tweeter balls, I came in last, and I still had a great time). It would be sad because arbitrary rulings that do not follow the actual letter of a rulebook ruin any competition. The rule book must be able to be trusted by officials and competitors alike.


----------



## chefhow

dietDrThunder said:


> I understand what you are saying, but this simply is not what the rule book says.
> 
> BTW I am with you that the rules for 'stock' are very clear, in that the extra tweeters can be surface mounted on doors, a-pillars or dash but no pods are allowed. When you move on to the 'street' rules, there is a different set of rules about tweeter mounting that is clearly defined, as discussed earlier. Those exceptions allow for any of the three options listed and there is no limitation specified as to where one can use those mounting methods.
> 
> NOTE: if what you guys are trying to say is that the rules are not likely to be enforced the way that they are written, then that is an entirely different (and sad) conversation. I don't think that's the case though. Like I said, I've only been to one event, but I thought the judges were fair, and when I asked questions about rules and such I got honest, transparent answers that made me feel like there is real effort to abide by the rule book and be fair.
> 
> If I was right about that, then I stand by what I've written. If I am wrong about that, and you are saying that even though the rules clearly allow it, that flush mounting sub-2" tweeters in the dash would not be allowed in 'street' then, well...that would suck. Not because I need to be in a particular class (I don't care...I was in mod last time because I had styrofoam tweeter balls, I came in last, and I still had a great time). It would be sad because arbitrary rulings that do not follow the actual letter of a rulebook ruin any competition. The rule book must be able to be trusted by officials and competitors alike.


I think you should send an email to Steve Stern or Vinny Taylor about your question, what they say is the final ruling none of us really matter when it comes to rule interpretations. Just so you know I send them emails about rules regularly right now as I am building a new car. 

You mentioned that at FF you were in the Modified class, well no matter what you do you CAN NOT go backwards unless you change vehicles. Once a car has run in a class it must either stay in that class or move up. Just an FYI. 
See you in the lanes

H-


----------



## dietDrThunder

chefhow said:


> I think you should send an email to Steve Stern or Vinny Taylor about your question, what they say is the final ruling none of us really matter when it comes to rule interpretations. Just so you know I send them emails about rules regularly right now as I am building a new car.
> 
> You mentioned that at FF you were in the Modified class, well no matter what you do you CAN NOT go backwards unless you change vehicles. Once a car has run in a class it must either stay in that class or move up. Just an FYI.
> See you in the lanes
> 
> H-


Vinnie Taylor told me at FF that it was no problem to move classes due to my noobie mistake (my styrofoam pods) and the facts that a) I was dead last b) my _very_ modest system and build were clearly intended to be 'street' class material and c) it was literally my first competition ever. I mean, how many people are there competing in any class with no time alignment, or with a $170 head unit?  When I go to Murfreesboro this weekend I'll talk to Steve. Thanks for mentioning that.

EDIT: where in the rulebook does it say that about under no circumstances can a car ever move down in classes? I admit I just skimmed, but I'm not seeing that.

I don't need to bother them with emails...we'll just talk about it in person this weekend. It is an interesting subject, but I can't see how there is any other possible "interpretation" as the language is very clear.

By the way, thanks to you and others in the thread for having a civil conversation...maybe we can start a new Internet trend whereby it's possible to argue about something but not come to e-blows!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

^didnt know that, good to know.

I gave up on the rules and will just compete in extreme. Even if i showed up with a completely stock stereo, i would be in modex, because stereo or no stereo, my seats got moved back to make the car more comfortable for my long legs. So i decided screw it, and gutted the dash for most of my front stage.


----------



## SouthSideDon

chefhow said:


> ...You mentioned that at FF you were in the Modified class, well no matter what you do you CAN NOT go backwards unless you change vehicles. Once a car has run in a class it must either stay in that class or move up. Just an FYI.
> See you in the lanes
> 
> H-


Please cite page number?

In Sound Pressure League, there is wording that prevents a Street/Modified/Radical competitor from moving down to AMETUER STREET class.

But I was not aware of such a rule in Sound Quality League.


----------



## MacLeod

Yeah I don't know about that either. You move according to your install. If I took my mids out of the A pillar and ran just with the stock speaker locations, I can move back down to Street or Mod Street. Now you can't take your points with you. If you move to a different class, the points you've earned so far don't go with you.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thats what i thought too. The guy the runs the socal meca events told me i could just seal my kick panels and put stock seat brackets in and drop down a class.


----------



## SouthSideDon

SouthSideDon said:


> Please cite page number?
> 
> In Sound Pressure League, there is wording that prevents a Street/Modified/Radical competitor from moving down to AMETUER STREET class.
> 
> But I was not aware of such a rule in Sound Quality League.


There is wording in Sound Quality League rules that state once a competitor has competed as "MASTER", they will always be "MASTER". 

But other than that, it's hard to not allow a vehicle to move down classes. Cut metal in the higher classes could be an issue. But even cut doors/panels/etc. can be replaced with OEM parts with varying degrees of price/difficulty.


----------



## USDMBB

*Re: 2012 MECA Rule, s*

Quick Question On the New CD Tracks Is the Vivaldi track Listed correctly?
On Chesky site I found the CD But the only "Spring" I found was in E Major not F. Any help would be great, as I have all the other tracks already.


----------



## chefhow

From what I have been told by Steve once you cut your door, kick or dash you can not move back. When I started I was going to start in Street and move back to Stock, at least that was an idea, and was told at the first show that I could not do it. I could be wrong ( there's a first for everything, LOL) but I have heard it said more than once by several people.


----------



## SouthSideDon

chefhow said:


> From what I have been told by Steve once you cut your door, kick or dash you can not move back. ...


"Recycled" auto parts are readily available. Even if you cut your door metal, you can obtain a new door (junk yards sell them ALL THE TIME to body shops). And you can obtain a new interior door panel with some searching, also. If you glassed/cut your original kick panels, then a new set of "recylcled" kick panels from ABC junkyard are readily available for most vehicles. 

I understand you are a messenger here, but I would like to know more about this. I don't think it's in the rule book. If this was a conversation about a particular vehicle, then maybe the statement was not necessarily the blanket statement I'm reading it to be.

I would think that as clear as the SPL Ameteur Street rules and SQL Master rules are about classes, rules about the same SQL vehicle dropping to lower classes would also be clear and easy to cite. In SPL, for example, many cars (CRX's) alernate between Street and Modified by box/port position. I am in no way a CRX expert, but I do believe I've heard that in passing.

With that said, if I "temporarily" install 2 extra sets of tweeters in front of the A-pillars to see how it scores (in Modified class), then remove the tweeters to go back to my Stock/Street/Mod Street class, there's no particular ruling I'm aware of that would prevent that from happening, as long as everything else about the install is in compliance with the that particular classes rules and limitations. I would think that same principle would apply to cut interior panels, pillars, kicks, and even dashes and metal panels that can be replaced (body shops replace whole dashes regularly from crowbarred radio thefts).

The last thing I will say is that I believe it to be the competitor's responisibility to be in compliance. So if anything about your vehicle is called in to question, you should be prepared to prove it--within reason. If everybody knows you had an 8-inch woofer cut into the passenger floor board, but now you are saying you don't and you wanna go back to stock, you should probably have some pictures/receipts/etc. of what was done about that 8-inch mid. And generally, you want to address such install changes BEFORE October, IMO.


----------



## dietDrThunder

chefhow said:


> From what I have been told by Steve once you cut your door, kick or dash you can not move back. When I started I was going to start in Street and move back to Stock, at least that was an idea, and was told at the first show that I could not do it. I could be wrong ( there's a first for everything, LOL) but I have heard it said more than once by several people.


These items you're mentioning are disturbing to me. You clearly have much experience doing this, and I absolutely do not doubt, and have never doubted any of the conversations you've cited in this thread. This means that the rule book is not, in fact, followed to the letter.

What is a hopeful sign to me is that these conversations are taking place early in the 2012 season. I will email Vinny and Steve, and offer assistance in crafting the 2013 rule book. It's a good idea IMO to involve a new person, so that prejudices aren't present, and you get the perspective of a person who is reading the rules for the first time, seeing how that person interprets them, and why.

The rule book does not say that you can't move back in the manner you're describing Chef, so if that's what is enforced, that is a problem that needs to be fixed by either not enforcing it, or putting it in the rules. 

I know that those guys work very hard at this, and for that I am very grateful. I hope that all of this discussion is taken as it is intended, in a constructive light.


----------



## dietDrThunder

SouthSideDon said:


> The last thing I will say is that I believe it to be the competitor's responisibility to *be in compliance.* So if anything about your vehicle is called in to question, you should be prepared to prove it--within reason.


This is 100% what I'm talking about. When you say "prove it" I assume you mean not only prove that you're complying by showing or documenting your system, but also by being able to show in the rules where what you've done is legal. But, the reverse is true as well. If a judge tells a competitor that something is not legal for a class (for example), he has to be able to point out why by citing a specific passage in the rule book.

Now, is there the possibility that someone will come up with something wacky that nobody saw coming, so that there won't be a rule? If course. You deal with it as it comes, and fix the rules for next year if needed (or with an update mid-season if it's an egregious miscarriage of the spirit of the competition). But Steve, Vinny, and all the other folks who run things (and most competitors) are very experienced at this, so there is no reason for ambiguity in simple matters like flush mounting a tweeter, or covering an a-pillar.

Cliff notes: let's all make sure we're following the letter of the rules as defined in the official 2012 MECA rule book, and chances are very good that we'll all be treated fairly


----------



## chefhow

Just to give an example at Finals this past year all Stock class competitors were required to remove the door panels for verification to prove no metal had been cut to accomodate larger speakers.

Like I said earlier I may be wrong.


----------



## stereo_luver

asota said:


> 2. Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods *designed to provide a factory look to the install*.
> 
> This is the rule word for word for optional tweeter mounting where does it say tweeters can be mounted any where but in pods ??


Here is the debatable part of 'this' isuue. I was almost moved up to Modified since I had changed my speaker grills. The judge who almost moved me owned the same truck as mine and knew that the grills had been changed. I still have what could be considered a 'factory' appearance.....but not OEM.

Chuck


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Im going to have to look farther into the class dropping. It makes sense not to be able to drop from master, since that class is for people with experience that would give them an unfair advantage.

But lets take another scenario. Lets say my modex car has all its equipment stolen, and i cant afford to replace it. So i put in some stuff i have lying around in the stock locations, and my installed is not to the book on a stock class install. Since i cut my kick panel metal for my previous install, am i still in modex? Even though the cut kick panel is empty and can be proved to be so? That would put me off competition if something like this happened and i was forever forced to compete in a high class with a stock install.


----------



## stereo_luver

The best way to get your answers IMO is to email the MECA Commissioner and have the Rules Commitee vote on the best answer for your issues and questions. Thats what I did when I looked to what class I would be placed in with the changing of the speaker grills. I saved the email and score sheets so there would be no issues at events later.

Chuck


----------



## SouthSideDon

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ...Since i cut my kick panel metal ...am i still in modex? ....


I think you answered your own question within the question. ;p

Not trying to be a douche, but if the metal is cut, then you're not stock/street. Doesn't matter how it is being used--or not used for that matter.

Pyramid W64 woofers FTW


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

What im getting at is thats an issue that could be keep people away from competing. 

If i was told that i had to compete 4 classes above my install because of something that was no longer installed and therefore added no sonic benifits, i would take my money and leave. 

This isnt a hypothetical questiin. I have a friend who would like to compete. He has a stock class install. But according to the rules, he woukd be in modex because he has cut his dash to install oil pressure and oil temp gauges.


----------



## stereo_luver

Can someone please download the .pdf of the MECA rules and email to me? New laptop and adobe won't open in IE


[email protected]

Chuck


----------



## pionkej

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> What im getting at is thats an issue that could be keep people away from competing.
> 
> If i was told that i had to compete 4 classes above my install because of something that was no longer installed and therefore added no sonic benifits, i would take my money and leave.
> 
> This isnt a hypothetical questiin. I have a friend who would like to compete. He has a stock class install. But according to the rules, he woukd be in modex because he has cut his dash to install oil pressure and oil temp gauges.


I personally don't think the one would affect the other. Best thing ANYBODY can do is email Steve/MECA. They will tell you they can look at the install at the next show and let you know. You can voice concerns as well at that time. After you get a "judgement", ask to have it documented. Last thing you want is to assume and not get bumped until somebody complains toward the end of the season, then the points you earned are void. 

If you are unsure...ask. If you need to ask...ask early on.


----------



## stereo_luver

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> What im getting at is thats an issue that could be keep people away from competing.
> 
> If i was told that i had to compete 4 classes above my install because of something that was no longer installed and therefore added no sonic benifits, i would take my money and leave.
> 
> This isnt a hypothetical questiin. I have a friend who would like to compete. He has a stock class install. But according to the rules, he woukd be in modex because he has* cut his dash to install oil pressure and oil temp gauges*.


This is NOT audio related. The rules (if I'm not mistaken) state that modifications to the vehicle can not enhance the sonic / sound of the vehicle.

Someone please email me the rules in pdf....LOL

Chuck


----------



## decibelle

chefhow said:


> From what I have been told by Steve once you cut your door, kick or dash you can not move back. When I started I was going to start in Street and move back to Stock, at least that was an idea, and was told at the first show that I could not do it. I could be wrong ( there's a first for everything, LOL) but I have heard it said more than once by several people.




So hypothetically if I wanted to seal up the couple of tiny holes in my kicks, I still couldn't move down to modified? And if I decided I was going to lie and claim I have no cut/drilled metal whatsoever, they would just have to take my word for it, no?

Not planning to seal, nor would I ever lie about doing so, but this discussion has made me curious as to what would happen in such a situation.


----------



## stereo_luver

we could beat this subject to death. But as John and myself have suggested......an email should be sent to the rules committee for review. Please explain in detail and include pictures of the issues in question. The rules can be complicated but explained and made clear with a simple email.


Chuck


----------



## stereo_luver

millerlyte said:


> So hypothetically if I wanted to seal up the couple of tiny holes in my kicks, I still couldn't move down to modified? And if I decided I was going to lie and claim I have no cut/drilled metal whatsoever, they would just have to take my word for it, no?
> 
> Not planning to seal, nor would I ever lie about doing so, but this discussion has made me curious as to what would happen in such a situation.


for the most part this issue is a trust of compliance with the rules as well as a moral issue within the rules. If you WERE vented and closed the vented location....then you comply. BUT...without the current rules at hand I can't honestly say IMO if you could move back down a class. Keep in mind the points you aquired in a different class will not be applied to the lower class you are moving to. It's early in the season and points can be recouped to make a show at finals.

Chuck


----------



## chefhow

millerlyte said:


> So hypothetically if I wanted to seal up the couple of tiny holes in my kicks, I still couldn't move down to modified? And if I decided I was going to lie and claim I have no cut/drilled metal whatsoever, they would just have to take my word for it, no?
> 
> Not planning to seal, nor would I ever lie about doing so, but this discussion has made me curious as to what would happen in such a situation.


Somebody at Finals last year supposedly cut their door to fit a larger speaker and they were in Stock class. It was reported to the judges and they decided that since it was an easily hidable offense they were going to make EVERYONE in the class prove they were within the rules and remove both door panels. Everyone was given enough time to get it done and they came around and verified. 

So IF you were to say you sealed up your kicks and somebody wanted to fight it(this happened in SPL 2 years ago at Finals and they wouldnt take pics, they had to see it) they could ask you to prove that you were no longer vented to the outside of the car.


----------



## dietDrThunder

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> What im getting at is thats an issue that could be keep people away from competing.
> 
> If i was told that i had to compete 4 classes above my install because of something that was no longer installed and therefore added no sonic benifits, i would take my money and leave.
> 
> This isnt a hypothetical questiin. I have a friend who would like to compete. He has a stock class install. But according to the rules, he woukd be in modex because he has cut his dash to install oil pressure and oil temp gauges.


Actually there is a properly-worded clause in the rules for exactly this situation, and your friend would not be excluded from 'stock' or 'street' as a result of these mods. Line item C) in the 'stock' rules (also applies to 'street') reads as follows:

Modifications or upgrades to a vehicle’s *interior*, exterior, engine, or related components do not necessarily move a vehicle to a higher class
unless those modifications or upgrades are done to improve the sound quality system beyond the limits outlined in the Verification Criteria.​
Will we see your buddy in Murfreesboro this weekend?


----------



## dietDrThunder

stereo_luver said:


> Here is the debatable part of 'this' isuue. I was almost moved up to Modified since I had changed my speaker grills. The judge who almost moved me owned the same truck as mine and knew that the grills had been changed. I still have what could be considered a 'factory' appearance.....but not OEM.
> 
> Chuck


Ya to move you for that reason would clearly be outside the intent of the rules. After all, flush mounting an aftermarket tweeter in the dash is allowed in 'street' and that by definition means that 'factory look' is the standard, not to be confused with 'oem.'


----------



## dietDrThunder

stereo_luver said:


> for the most part this issue is a trust of compliance with the rules as well as a moral issue within the rules. If you WERE vented and closed the vented location....then you comply. BUT...without the current rules at hand I can't honestly say IMO if you could move back down a class.


I have the rules at hand, and I see nothing in there about moving up or down classes.

The real meat of the question though, is whether it's even possible for some mods to be reversed such that they are legal for the lower classes. If I cut out my kicks for mids, then weld a plate back over the hole to go back to stock, but the plate is stiffer than the oem metal that was there before, should I be legal? I'd have to say no. After all, iif that were legal, then the door would be opened to doing things like cutting out panels that resonate and welding in replacements that don't.

Perhaps there needs to be clearly stated rules that you can, in theory move up and down classes, but cut metal can't be 'repaired' and can only be replaced (for example). This would make it a practical impossibility to "un-cut" kick panel metal, but if we were talking about doors, one could replace the doors.

Great conversation btw...I hope the powers-that-be are reading this. This type of exploration and discussion is how improvements are made! :beerchug:


----------



## dietDrThunder

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Im going to have to look farther into the class dropping. It makes sense not to be able to drop from master, since that class is for people with experience that would give them an unfair advantage.
> 
> But lets take another scenario. Lets say my modex car has all its equipment stolen, and i cant afford to replace it. So i put in some stuff i have lying around in the stock locations, and my installed is not to the book on a stock class install. Since i cut my kick panel metal for my previous install, am i still in modex? Even though the cut kick panel is empty and can be proved to be so? That would put me off competition if something like this happened and i was forever forced to compete in a high class with a stock install.


This scenario would have to come under some sort of discretionary judgement I'd guess. Maybe there would be a situation where the head judge and Steve would have a pow wow and decide if there was a material advantage to your kicks, and grant a temporary waiver?

I'm just thinking out loud...I have no idea how it would be handled...it's a good question though.


----------



## SouthSideDon

dietDrThunder said:


> ...After all, flush mounting an aftermarket tweeter in the dash is allowed in 'street' ...


i've been wondering about this! cool!


----------



## dietDrThunder

SouthSideDon said:


> i've been wondering about this! cool!


Hey, take it easy...I'm not a MECA official, I'm just a guy reading the rule book


----------



## SouthSideDon

i cleaned up the quote. i was just wondering if flush mounting a tweeter anywhere other than a door panel was allowed in the lower classes. not necessarily the OEM vs. "factory" look question.


----------



## dietDrThunder

SouthSideDon said:


> i cleaned up the quote. i was just wondering if flush mounting a tweeter anywhere other than a door panel was allowed in the lower classes. not necessarily the OEM vs. "factory" look question.


Oh right. Ya, we were talking about that earlier. As a recap, here is the part of the 'street' class rules that applies to that...

E) *Except for the following exceptions,* cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash modifications are prohibited:

2. Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install.​


----------



## asota

dietDrThunder said:


> Ya to move you for that reason would clearly be outside the intent of the rules. After all, flush mounting an aftermarket tweeter in the dash is allowed in 'street' and that by definition means that 'factory look' is the standard, not to be confused with 'oem.'


Are you sure this is allowed all judges I have talked to or have commented on here disagree. Did Steve E-mail you back and ok this?


----------



## dietDrThunder

asota said:


> Are you sure this is allowed all judges I have talked to or have commented on here disagree. Did Steve E-mail you back and ok this?


I am absolutely NOT sure on any of it. All I've been discussing the entire time is what the rule book actually says. If the ruling follows the actual rules, then flush mounting tweeters in the dash is allowed in 'street.'(provided that they meet stated criteria). Also, someone posted earlier that he and a friend both had flush dash tweets in their 'street' cars for years.

I'm going to the Murfreesboro show this weekend, so I'm planning to talk to him there about it. I am confident that the ruling will be that they are allowed, as that's what the rules say. Steve struck me as a fair guy who cares about the competition, so it's hard to imagine him arbitrarily ignoring the rule book.


----------



## SouthSideDon

and since I'm not 100% sure, I'm just surface mounting right now between the dash and a-pillars. i am trying to get to Murfreesboro this Sunday to get an opinion on the current and potential tweeter placement.


----------



## dietDrThunder

Official ruling on the tweeter mounting from Steve, backed up by Vinny:

The rule in question in this thread (quoted below) is written as it was intended to be enforced. In street class, one may flush mount tweeters, surface mount tweeters, or mount tweeters in custom pods. The exceptions to the 'no cutting' rule are clearly defined as follows...

E) *Except for the following exceptions,* cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash modifications are prohibited:
1. Factory speaker locations may be trimmed to fit same size replacement speaker. In no case can more than 1/2” of total diameter be removed.
2.* Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install.*
3. The factory radio opening may be modified to accept up to a double din radio, but nut maintain a factory appearance.​
Steve said that the intent was to allow the flush mounting, and then deferred to Vinny to look at my car to make sure that I was not misinterpreting what it meant to do this.

Vinny looked at my car and was fine with it. He said that the rule was put in because most components come with simple hardware to either flush them, or surface mount them, and they felt that it was appropriate that 'street' class cars be able to use this basic hardware that is included with speakers. My car uses only the that included hardware, and the dash is simply cut out to fit the body of the tweeter into it.

I am very happy to report this, as my faith in MECA as a fair organization that abides by its rulebook turned out to be well-founded.


----------



## KP

Noise: i read in one of these threads about points deducted in noise for panels rattles and buzzes. I do not see where that is a deduct in the NOISE section. Possible to hurt the SQ scores but it is not an allowable deduct in the noise section.

Noise is to be judged with music at reasonable volume and from normal listening position. Only system related noise will be
deducted; for example, alternator whine, on/off pop, etc. Points should not be deducted for fans running, relays turning on/off, CD
spinning inside the head unit UNLESS they can be heard coming through the system.

Reading this makes me wonder how folks get counted off for a faint noise floor with the music at 'a reasonable volume'. Hmmmmmm...


----------



## Mic10is

AcuraTLSQ said:


> Noise: i read in one of these threads about points deducted in noise for panels rattles and buzzes. I do not see where that is a deduct in the NOISE section. Possible to hurt the SQ scores but it is not an allowable deduct in the noise section.
> 
> Noise is to be judged with music at reasonable volume and from normal listening position. Only system related noise will be
> deducted; for example, alternator whine, on/off pop, etc. Points should not be deducted for fans running, relays turning on/off, CD
> spinning inside the head unit UNLESS they can be heard coming through the system.
> 
> Reading this makes me wonder how folks get counted off for a faint noise floor with the music at 'a reasonable volume'. Hmmmmmm...



Kirk, at least once by every judge since Ive started competing in MECA, at some point in time or at some event Ive had a deduction or Ive seen deductions for door panel or panel resonance (buzz) specifically on track 3 or the bass resonance track.
Deduction falls Under Misc Noises.

And While I agree that this must be audible at a reasonable listening level ie..approx 90db....

I have had judges that seem to go noise hunting using the Bass resonance track well into the 105db range...and I honestly dont know of more than a handful of systems that dont exhibit some sort of panel resonance at that volume on that track.


----------



## KP

Its not in the rules. I've always been told and was trained that the noise secton is for noise coming out of a speaker, not caused by it. Buzzes, rattles, etc. could effect other sections if severe. The noise section is going to need to be adjusted with the new CD anyways. This needs to be clarified while making the changes with the addition of the zero bits track.


----------



## Mic10is

AcuraTLSQ said:


> Its not in the rules. I've always been told and was trained that the noise secton is for noise coming out of a speaker, not caused by it. Buzzes, rattles, etc. could effect other sections if severe. The noise section is going to need to be adjusted with the new CD anyways. This needs to be clarified while making the changes with the addition of the zero bits track.


I completely agree that it definitely needs clarification. Ive had Zenner, Shaw, Vrooman and others deduct me and others for MISC noise bc of a door panel buzz or other rattles.

I dont see how panel buzzes can possibly fall under tonality bc it is not distortion. It is not the speaker distorting causing the noise, it is the speaker causing the panel or mechanisms within or around to become excited and create noise.
Tonality deductions only mention distortion from the speaker itself.


----------



## highly

I have had points deducted for an auxiliary relay switching at power-up that could juuuust be made out when the car was in total silence. It was behind a panel in a 4x4x4" 3/4" MDF box stuffed with high density cotton batting, wrapped in 4 layers of dampening material with the wires coming out a sealed hole. And I was still deducted for the point. It did not make a turn-on pop through the system; this was the click from the relay switching.

Didn't make a difference in the results so I didn't push it.

Clarification of that rule would be nice.

-T


----------



## dietDrThunder

highly said:


> I have had points deducted for an auxiliary relay switching at power-up that could juuuust be made out when the car was in total silence. It was behind a panel in a 4x4x4" 3/4" MDF box stuffed with high density cotton batting, wrapped in 4 layers of dampening material with the wires coming out a sealed hole. And I was still deducted for the point. It did not make a turn-on pop through the system; this was the click from the relay switching.
> 
> Didn't make a difference in the results so I didn't push it.
> 
> Clarification of that rule would be nice.
> 
> -T


There is no clarification needed in the rule. If you had a point deducted for a relay, that was a mistake by the judge. The rule is clear:

_Noise is to be judged with music at reasonable volume and from normal listening position. *Only system related noise will be
deducted*; for example, alternator whine, on/off pop, etc. *Points should not be deducted for* fans running, *relays turning on/off*, CD
spinning inside the head unit UNLESS they can be heard coming through the system._​
Later, an additional discussion of noise judging states:

_There will be a points deduction from the total score for each instance of the following, *heard through the speakers*:
1. Alternator/engine noise (while engine is running and source unit is on. If alternator/engine noise is still present with
the source unit completely off, point will not be deducted)
2. Hiss
3. Turn on pop or thump
4. Turn off pop or thump
5. Misc. System Noise. Examples: Excess switching noise when changing source from tuner, CD, etc. or noise
introduced when turning on/off headlights_​
I don't see anything in the rules about deductions for noise(s) that are not heard through the speakers. That said, IMO there should be a line item that deals with this subject, so that people can know what needs attention and what doesn't, in a consistent and reliable (as in, always judged the same) way.


----------



## Mic10is

dietDrThunder said:


> There is no clarification needed in the rule. If you had a point deducted for a relay, that was a mistake by the judge. The rule is clear:
> 
> _Noise is to be judged with music at reasonable volume and from normal listening position. *Only system related noise will be
> deducted*; for example, alternator whine, on/off pop, etc. *Points should not be deducted for* fans running, *relays turning on/off*, CD
> spinning inside the head unit UNLESS they can be heard coming through the system._​
> Later, an additional discussion of noise judging states:
> 
> _There will be a points deduction from the total score for each instance of the following, *heard through the speakers*:
> 1. Alternator/engine noise (while engine is running and source unit is on. If alternator/engine noise is still present with
> the source unit completely off, point will not be deducted)
> 2. Hiss
> 3. Turn on pop or thump
> 4. Turn off pop or thump
> 5. Misc. System Noise. Examples: Excess switching noise when changing source from tuner, CD, etc. or noise
> introduced when turning on/off headlights_​
> I don't see anything in the rules about deductions for noise(s) that are not heard through the speakers. That said, IMO there should be a line item that deals with this subject, so that people can know what needs attention and what doesn't, in a consistent and reliable (as in, always judged the same) way.


Here is the thing tho, as a Judge It isnt my job persay to identify the exact source of the noise, but just to document it.
Sometimes noise is very obvious as to where it emanates, other times it is much less obvious but still present.
Regardless, a Judge doesnt have time to sit and look around trying to identify the exact source of the noise, nor should a Judge be looking around the cabin or install to identify anything. His/her job is to sit, listen, and score.
As long as the judge is consistent car to car, there isnt an issue.


----------



## Genxx

Mic-If you cannot clearly indentify it coming from the speakers or through the system there should be no deduction. That does not require a judge to look around or check out the install, IMO.

If a judge cannot 100% without doubt say it is coming from the speakers then there should be no deduction as per the rules. 

There have been some judges that deduct for things in all of the orgs that bring into question their own understanding of the rules. This causes confusion and can cause content for the judges which can leave a "bad taste" in a competitors mouth. 

A judge has to know the rules and when in doubt whip it out (The rule book) and make sure they understand the ruling in the rule book.

IMO if there is any doubt or a judge needs clarification on something in the rule book judging should be stopped immediately by that judge until he/she has gotten 100% clarification on the rule. Once the judge has clarification then judging should restart. No one can remember everything all the time.

Many times Judges are expected to know everything that is just not ever going to happen. I have no issue with a judge stopping and getting clarification before proceeding with a judgment call.


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> Here is the thing tho, as a Judge It isnt my job persay to identify the exact source of the noise, but just to document it.
> Sometimes noise is very obvious as to where it emanates, other times it is much less obvious but still present.
> 
> Regardless, a Judge doesnt have time to sit and look around trying to identify the exact source of the noise, nor should a Judge be looking around the cabin or install to identify anything. His/her job is to sit, listen, and score.
> As long as the judge is consistent car to car, there isnt an issue.


Sorry, but no...the rulebook makes it your job as a judge to identify the exact source of the noise, because the rulebook provides the definitions of judging criteria. The rules state very clearly that deductions are for noises that come from the speakers only. Of course I'm not saying that you should spend 45 minutes on every car rooting around for that cliick you think you heard...that's silly. But, if you can't tell if a noise comes from a speaker, then you can't deduct for the noise.

If judges are deducting (or adding) for things that are not defined in the rulebook, this is a serious issue. It is imperative that the rulebook be a reliable predictor of issues in any competition.

Now, that said...this has raised another important rule book issue that needs to be addressed for sure, as IMO it is absolutely not practical for a judge to always be able to tell where a noise comes from. There needs to be wording in the rules to account for this (and it would not be hard to fix either).

On top of that, it's my opinion that some non-speaker-sourced noise _should_ be a deduction. After all, does it really matter how accurate, spacious and carefully constructed your sound stage is if there is an intrusive BVVVFFFFVVV coming out of a door panel every 2 seconds? This IMO is is part of 'SQ' and should be judged/included in some manner. I'm not saying that it would be all classes, and I'm not saying that I know how it should be included, but it seems silly to me that it isn't.


----------



## highly

DietDrThunder: 
Some judges agree with you and use the 'noise' section and their judgement to include non-speaker related noise in the 'noise' portion of the scoresheet. It was this practice that I intended to allude to. Thanks for pointing out the my failure to do so in a way that makes it seem like I've never read the rulebook. This isn't my first rodeo.


----------



## Accordman

dietDrThunder said:


> Sorry, but no...the rulebook makes it your job as a judge to identify the exact source of the noise, because the rulebook provides the definitions of judging criteria. The rules state very clearly that deductions are for noises that come from the speakers only. Of course I'm not saying that you should spend 45 minutes on every car rooting around for that cliick you think you heard...that's silly. But, if you can't tell if a noise comes from a speaker, then you can't deduct for the noise.
> 
> If judges are deducting (or adding) for things that are not defined in the rulebook, this is a serious issue. It is imperative that the rulebook be a reliable predictor of issues in any competition.
> 
> Now, that said...this has raised another important rule book issue that needs to be addressed for sure, as IMO it is absolutely not practical for a judge to always be able to tell where a noise comes from. There needs to be wording in the rules to account for this (and it would not be hard to fix either).
> 
> On top of that, it's my opinion that some non-speaker-sourced noise _should_ be a deduction. After all, does it really matter how accurate, spacious and carefully constructed your sound stage is if there is an intrusive BVVVFFFFVVV coming out of a door panel every 2 seconds? This IMO is is part of 'SQ' and should be judged/included in some manner. I'm not saying that it would be all classes, and I'm not saying that I know how it should be included, but it seems silly to me that it isn't.


agree totally.


----------



## dietDrThunder

highly said:


> DietDrThunder:
> Some judges agree with you and use the 'noise' section and their judgement to include non-speaker related noise in the 'noise' portion of the scoresheet. It was this practice that I intended to allude to. Thanks for pointing out the my failure to do so in a way that makes it seem like I've never read the rulebook. This isn't my first rodeo.


It was plain in your post what you were alluding to, and I was agreeing with you the whole way. I was addressing Mic and using your post, _and_ I was supporting your implication that you should not have been deducted for the relay...I have no idea why you'd take exception to any of that, but whatever.

The judges wouldn't be agreeing with me or not, they'd be following the rule book or not. All I'm doing is reading the rules, and there is no place for subjective interpretation of this rule. It clearly states that there is only to be deduction for noise that comes through the speakers.


----------



## dietDrThunder

dietDrThunder said:


> Sorry, but no...the rulebook makes it your job as a judge to identify the exact source of the noise, because the rulebook provides the definitions of judging criteria. The rules state very clearly that deductions are for noises that come from the speakers only. Of course I'm not saying that you should spend 45 minutes on every car rooting around for that cliick you think you heard...that's silly. But, if you can't tell if a noise comes from a speaker, then you can't deduct for the noise.
> 
> If judges are deducting (or adding) for things that are not defined in the rulebook, this is a serious issue. It is imperative that the rulebook be a reliable predictor of issues in any competition.
> 
> Now, that said...this has raised another important rule book issue that needs to be addressed for sure, as IMO it is absolutely not practical for a judge to always be able to tell where a noise comes from. There needs to be wording in the rules to account for this (and it would not be hard to fix either).
> 
> On top of that, it's my opinion that some non-speaker-sourced noise _should_ be a deduction. After all, does it really matter how accurate, spacious and carefully constructed your sound stage is if there is an intrusive BVVVFFFFVVV coming out of a door panel every 2 seconds? This IMO is is part of 'SQ' and should be judged/included in some manner. I'm not saying that it would be all classes, and I'm not saying that I know how it should be included, but it seems silly to me that it isn't.


I re-read this post, and I feel like I didn't make one of my points very clear...

I know that the judges volunteer (or close anyway) and without them there would be no competition, and I greatly appreciate that. I am thankful that Mic and others take the time and effort to do these contests and in no way am I trying to hassle the judges.

All I'm saying is that as an organization, it is critically important that the rules be carefully followed, and it's pretty clear that doesn't happen. I believe that whatever subjective judgements that Mic makes about non-system noise are very valid, and I have no doubt that he makes the judgements in a fair and consistent manner.

BUT...the rules must prevail in any competition, and as of the 2012 year rule book, it is clearly defined that there is not to be a deduction for non-system noise. As such, regardless of how valid, fair, and consistent the observation may be, it is a mistake to deduct for this, because it is expressly defined in the rules.

If this is a problem (and I think it is personally) then it should be addressed in the 2013 rules.


----------



## chefhow

When u can't tell where a noise is comin from but it's definitely there you have to deduct points. I'm not talking about door panel buzzing, I'm talking about extraneous noises. When you have 15 cars to judge and you hear clicks, pops, or humming its usually system related and since no judges have time to start to tear into a car to find them, and they shouldn't, the depending upon how bad the noise is will depend upon how much you are deducted. 
Ask Aaron or Chuck, I'm sure they can tell you all about it.


----------



## Mic10is

Genxx said:


> Mic-If you cannot clearly indentify it coming from the speakers or through the system there should be no deduction. That does not require a judge to look around or check out the install, IMO.
> 
> If a judge cannot 100% without doubt say it is coming from the speakers then there should be no deduction as per the rules.
> 
> There have been some judges that deduct for things in all of the orgs that bring into question their own understanding of the rules. This causes confusion and can cause content for the judges which can leave a "bad taste" in a competitors mouth.
> 
> A judge has to know the rules and when in doubt whip it out (The rule book) and make sure they understand the ruling in the rule book.
> 
> IMO if there is any doubt or a judge needs clarification on something in the rule book judging should be stopped immediately by that judge until he/she has gotten 100% clarification on the rule. Once the judge has clarification then judging should restart. No one can remember everything all the time.
> 
> Many times Judges are expected to know everything that is just not ever going to happen. I have no issue with a judge stopping and getting clarification before proceeding with a judgment call.



What If you have no idea where the speakers are located but you hear noise?

Is it a judges job to identify where the speakers are located?

I prefer not to know where the speakers are located, to eliminate any possible bias or preconceived notions or ideas of what it could or should sound like.

There are some systems where it is very obvious where the speakers are located, but there are also just as many where locations are not easily identifiable and or some systems even have visible speakers which may not even be system related.

Therefore--Noise is Noise. If there is Noise, depending on the severity-there will be a deduction.


----------



## Genxx

Then guess what if you cannot 100% tell then a judge cannot deduct for it as per the rules. It is not a guessing game we are playing.* You may be able to deduct elsewhere on the score sheet at a judges discretion*. I believe if a judge is going to deduct for noise they need to go back and discuss it after with the competitor so the competitor understands the deduction and what the judge heard. If you can go back and repeat it in the car for the competitor to help them understand, that is even better. 

On the where speakers are located. By the time most people start judging big events they can tell just sitting in the car 99% of the time where things are located. If I sat you in 5 different cars just by sitting in the seat on initial entry and loading the CD ect. I bet you could tell where 99% of most cars stuff is installed. Only way to get past this IMO is to have us blind fold you then seat you in the car. Me and you can debate this one all day long.

Custom dash=Speakers in the dash
A-Pillar pods=speakers there
Kicks with grills or no plastic where it normal is speakers in the kicks.

What you don't want is new competitors chasing down a problem they don't have or tearing a system apart based on where a judge guesses it is coming from.IMO

What I am getting at is as a judge you need to unsure you are spot on about your judging. We cannot have judges guessing about anything.

I am not saying judging is not fair. I have judged in IASCA and people who never judged do not understand how hard it actually is. IMO it sucks, it can be a huge pain in the ass and in the summer time it is usually hot as hell in the car. No one should take what I am saying as a hit on any judges. 

This is a shot at make sure everyone is following the rules. If the rules cannot be followed then there is an issue with either the rule itself, the way the rule is written or the way it is enforced. It then brings the validity of that rule into question and leads people to pointing fingers at the judges 99% of the time. When in reality it is a poorly written rule a judge is having to try and enforce.


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> What If you have no idea where the speakers are located but you hear noise?
> 
> Is it a judges job to identify where the speakers are located?
> 
> I prefer not to know where the speakers are located, to eliminate any possible bias or preconceived notions or ideas of what it could or should sound like.
> 
> There are some systems where it is very obvious where the speakers are located, but there are also just as many where locations are not easily identifiable and or some systems even have visible speakers which may not even be system related.
> 
> Therefore--Noise is Noise. If there is Noise, depending on the severity-there will be a deduction.


The answer to these questions is clearly defined in the rules, and according to the rules as specified in detail, in two different parts, only noise that comes from the speakers is to be judged for deductions. Since speaker-sourced noise is the only noise that is valid as a deduction _according to the current rules_, then if one can't identify definitively that a noise is in fact coming from the speakers, then there can't be a deduction. There is no grey area in the rulebook on this.

Like I said before, I think this is a mistake that should be addressed, but subjective and arbitrary deductions are not the answer. I say 'arbitrary' because in the absence of clearly defined rules to follow, it is likely that different judges at different events will treat the same noise differently. This is a disaster as it pertains to the integrity of the competition.

Also, as I said before none of this is the judges fault. I am absolutely certain that you (Mic I mean) are a fair and (very) knowledgeable judge. But, if deduct for a noise that you aren't certain is coming from a speaker, then you are not following the rule book.

Maybe it's not reasonable to expect judges to tell where the noise is coming from. Maybe all noises should be judged regardless of origin. Maybe only noises audible during playback should be judged at all. There are many possibilities for sure. BUT, only one is actually defined in the rules, and that means that only those are to be deducted for. Again...if that is a problem (and I think it is) then it should be addressed in the rules, period.


----------



## chefhow

dietDrThunder said:


> The answer to these questions is clearly defined in the rules, and according to the rules as specified in detail, in two different parts, only noise that comes from the speakers is to be judged for deductions. Since speaker-sourced noise is the only noise that is valid as a deduction _according to the current rules_, then if one can't identify definitively that a noise is in fact coming from the speakers, then there can't be a deduction. There is no grey area in the rulebook on this.
> 
> Like I said before, I think this is a mistake that should be addressed, but subjective and arbitrary deductions are not the answer. I say 'arbitrary' because in the absence of clearly defined rules to follow, it is likely that different judges at different events will treat the same noise differently. This is a disaster as it pertains to the integrity of the competition.
> 
> Also, as I said before none of this is the judges fault. I am absolutely certain that you (Mic I mean) are a fair and (very) knowledgeable judge. But, if deduct for a noise that you aren't certain is coming from a speaker, then you are not following the rule book.
> 
> Maybe it's not reasonable to expect judges to tell where the noise is coming from. Maybe all noises should be judged regardless of origin. Maybe only noises audible during playback should be judged at all. There are many possibilities for sure. BUT, only one is actually defined in the rules, and that means that only those are to be deducted for. Again...if that is a problem (and I think it is) then it should be addressed in the rules, period.



So if I am reading what you are saying Alternator whine would not be a deduction. Its system noise not speaker noise, but cone breakup would be deducted. What about noise from the system that comes from several places? Zipper noise is a well documented and obvious problem in several Alpine units, do you deduct for that? What about Turbo whine? How about relay pops that happen in different stages as people use them on different pieces for delay but they can come from the speakers.

I can tell you from personal experience that one of the guys that rights the rules nailed me 1.5pts at state finals last year for a warning beep that came from my distribution block when the voltage in the car went below 10v. It is an automatic trigger that he heard, grabbed me to see what was happening, we tracked it down to my trunk behind a panel and made it happen again. I was informed that that is misc noise as it is described on the top of the score sheet and I lost 1.5 points. It didnt come thru the speakers, and it wasnt even in the cabin of the car but it was there and it was audible and that is a deduction. 

You can argue theoretical situations all day long but when it happens during a competition, a judge grabs you to let you know what they are hearing, recreates it so you can hear it, and puts it in the misc category then it is a deduction.


----------



## dietDrThunder

chefhow said:


> So if I am reading what you are saying Alternator whine would not be a deduction. Its system noise not speaker noise, but cone breakup would be deducted. What about noise from the system that comes from several places? Zipper noise is a well documented and obvious problem in several Alpine units, do you deduct for that? What about Turbo whine? How about relay pops that happen in different stages as people use them on different pieces for delay but they can come from the speakers.
> 
> I can tell you from personal experience that one of the guys that rights the rules nailed me 1.5pts at state finals last year for a warning beep that came from my distribution block when the voltage in the car went below 10v. It is an automatic trigger that he heard, grabbed me to see what was happening, we tracked it down to my trunk behind a panel and made it happen again. I was informed that that is misc noise as it is described on the top of the score sheet and I lost 1.5 points. It didnt come thru the speakers, and it wasnt even in the cabin of the car but it was there and it was audible and that is a deduction.
> 
> You can argue theoretical situations all day long but when it happens during a competition, a judge grabs you to let you know what they are hearing, recreates it so you can hear it, and puts it in the misc category then it is a deduction.


I hear what you are saying. All I am saying here is that the answer to all of these questions is clearly defined in the rule book. If the noise comes out of the speakers, then it is a deduction. That's it. Alternator whine comes out of the speakers, so that is a deduction. As for noises that come from several places...if one of those places is out of the speakers, then it's a deduction.

I understand that people here have experiences where there were deductions for noises that did not come out of the speakers...I'm just saying that _*ACCORDING TO THE RULES*_, this is not correct. I'm not saying that the rules are great, or properly written, followed reliably, or anything of the sort. What I AM saying is that the written rules _should_ be followed, if there is to be any hope of fairness and consistency.

Regarding the 'misc.' category...there is nothing in the rules about what this category is for or how it is to be used. But, in multiple places it is very clearly stated that the only noise that is deduction-worth is noise that comes out of the speakers. In fact, there are also multiple examples of other kinds of noises that are not deductions just to be extra-clear.

If judges are deducting for these things, then the rules needs work, or the judges should be instructed to follow the rules in my opinion. Like I said a few times now, I am 100% sure that these judgements on noise are fair and even-handed...they just aren't proper according to the written rules.

Let's look at it a different way. Here are the rules that I have found that concern noise...if there is anyone reading this who believes that *the rules indicate* that, say...a door panel buzz is an allowable deduction, please cite the rule in a reply.

1. From the 'judging criteria' section:

Noise is to be judged with music at reasonable volume and from normal listening position. *Only system related noise will be
deducted; for example, alternator whine, on/off pop, etc.* Points should not be deducted for fans running, relays turning on/off, CD
spinning inside the head unit UNLESS they can be heard coming through the system.​
2. From the 'system noise' section under "2012 Sound Quality Scoresheet Guidelines"

There will be a points deduction from the total score for each instance of the following, *heard through the speakers*:
1. Alternator/engine noise (while engine is running and source unit is on. If alternator/engine noise is still present with
the source unit completely off, point will not be deducted)
2. Hiss
3. Turn on pop or thump
4. Turn off pop or thump
5. Misc. System Noise. Examples: Excess switching noise when changing source from tuner, CD, etc. or noise
introduced when turning on/off headlights​
Holy cheese and rice...I know I'm new, but I feel like I'm the only person who actually thinks that the rules should be followed.


----------



## Mic10is

dietDrThunder said:


> I hear what you are saying. All I am saying here is that the answer to all of these questions is clearly defined in the rule book. If the noise comes out of the speakers, then it is a deduction. That's it. Alternator whine comes out of the speakers, so that is a deduction. As for noises that come from several places...if one of those places is out of the speakers, then it's a deduction.
> 
> I understand that people here have experiences where there were deductions for noises that did not come out of the speakers...I'm just saying that _*ACCORDING TO THE RULES*_, this is not correct. I'm not saying that the rules are great, or properly written, followed reliably, or anything of the sort. What I AM saying is that the written rules _should_ be followed, if there is to be any hope of fairness and consistency.
> 
> Regarding the 'misc.' category...there is nothing in the rules about what this category is for or how it is to be used. But, in multiple places it is very clearly stated that the only noise that is deduction-worth is noise that comes out of the speakers. In fact, there are also multiple examples of other kinds of noises that are not deductions just to be extra-clear.
> 
> If judges are deducting for these things, then the rules needs work, or the judges should be instructed to follow the rules in my opinion. Like I said a few times now, I am 100% sure that these judgements on noise are fair and even-handed...they just aren't proper according to the written rules.
> 
> Let's look at it a different way. Here are the rules that I have found that concern noise...if there is anyone reading this who believes that *the rules indicate* that, say...a door panel buzz is an allowable deduction, please cite the rule in a reply.
> 
> 1. From the 'judging criteria' section:
> 
> Noise is to be judged with music at reasonable volume and from normal listening position. *Only system related noise will be
> deducted; for example, alternator whine, on/off pop, etc.* Points should not be deducted for fans running, relays turning on/off, CD
> spinning inside the head unit UNLESS they can be heard coming through the system.​
> 2. From the 'system noise' section under "2012 Sound Quality Scoresheet Guidelines"
> 
> There will be a points deduction from the total score for each instance of the following, *heard through the speakers*:
> 1. Alternator/engine noise (while engine is running and source unit is on. If alternator/engine noise is still present with
> the source unit completely off, point will not be deducted)
> 2. Hiss
> 3. Turn on pop or thump
> 4. Turn off pop or thump
> 5. Misc. System Noise. Examples: Excess switching noise when changing source from tuner, CD, etc. or noise
> introduced when turning on/off headlights​
> Holy cheese and rice...I know I'm new, but I feel like I'm the only person who actually thinks that the rules should be followed.



Put the rule book down and go work on your car or something and go to some shows.
Trust me, you will have a miserable competition experience if you become fixated on translating the rule book literally in every single situation.
No organization has a perfect rulebook. everyone does the best they can to prove a fair organization and set of rules. 
There are always room for improvement and I will make sure that these grey areas get revisited before the use of the New CD Starts

lets move on to a new topic


----------



## highly

I'm wondering at what point in the competition you expect to be leveraging this rulebook knowledge. Scoresheets are handed out after awards. So what does the rulebook say about contesting a misplaced point? Are you expecting to follow through and take a judge to task because he docks a noise point you disagree with?


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> Put the rule book down and go work on your car or something and go to some shows.
> Trust me, you will have a miserable competition experience if you become fixated on translating the rule book literally in every single situation.
> No organization has a perfect rulebook. everyone does the best they can to prove a fair organization and set of rules.
> There are always room for improvement and I will make sure that these grey areas get revisited before the use of the New CD Starts
> 
> lets move on to a new topic


The only way I'm going to have a miserable competition experience is if the judges are ignoring the rule book. There is no "translating" going on here, it is spelled out in clear language. If a rule is specific in its definition, but judges (even ones who are experienced, fair, and acting in good faith as you are) act outside of them, that's not "grey area" it's ignoring the rule book.

Besides, I agree with you that the rules are created well in that they are clearly intended to be fair. The problem is that it doesn't matter if they're fair if they aren't followed.

I'm not sure why we'd move on to a new topic...isn't this thread dedicated to discussing MECA rules?

Are you saying that the rules are really meant as a sort of general guideline, and we shouldn't worry much about following them to the letter? I guess I don't get the resistance to a competitor trying to understand and follow the rules...?

Hell, I don't even have any noise issues...I'm just participating as an enthusiastic new guy. I can't possibly be the only person here who understands that clear and concise rules that are followed properly by competitors and officials alike are absolutely fundamental to any competitive organization...right? I mean, I've met and talked with Mic in particular, and I am _certain_ that he's a great judge and is fair minded. Doesn't being fair go hand in hand with careful attention to rules?


----------



## dietDrThunder

highly said:


> I'm wondering at what point in the competition you expect to be leveraging this rulebook knowledge. Scoresheets are handed out after awards. So what does the rulebook say about contesting a misplaced point? Are you expecting to follow through and take a judge to task because he docks a noise point you disagree with?


I expect to leverage this knowledge every time I buy equipment, do an install, make changes, tune, and compete.

And yes, I will absolutely contest a deduction that is outside the rules. Wouldn't you? I don't think I understand the question...

Scenario (not specific to the above discussion...and yes I know that you wouldn't have this exact issue at the worlds...it's an example):

You're at the World Finals, and you get second, by .5 points. You look at your sheet, and you have a deduction of 2 points and the note next to it says "system noise audible at most volume levels. -2"

Because you take competing seriously, you know the rule book. As such, you know that the rules state clearly that "system noise audible at most volume levels" is a 1 point deduction, not 2. Are you telling me that you're just going to shrug your shoulders and go home with the second place trophy?

Please.


----------



## Mic10is

dietDrThunder said:


> The only way I'm going to have a miserable competition experience is if the judges are ignoring the rule book. There is no "translating" going on here, it is spelled out in clear language. If a rule is specific in its definition, but judges (even ones who are experienced, fair, and acting in good faith as you are) act outside of them, that's not "grey area" it's ignoring the rule book.
> 
> Besides, I agree with you that the rules are created well in that they are clearly intended to be fair. The problem is that it doesn't matter if they're fair if they aren't followed.
> 
> I'm not sure why we'd move on to a new topic...isn't this thread dedicated to discussing MECA rules?
> 
> Are you saying that the rules are really meant as a sort of general guideline, and we shouldn't worry much about following them to the letter? I guess I don't get the resistance to a competitor trying to understand and follow the rules...?


Its not as black and white as you are trying to make it out to be> I give you credit for reading the rules and asking for clarification, but you are essentially beating a deadhorse.

As we have all mentioned--if you want specific clarification email Steve Stern or contact someone on the Rules and Ethics committee.
Or better Yet do both.


----------



## highly

Yes, I would walk away. Maybe - just MAYBE - you mention to the judge that his deduction isn't supported by a rule. Anything else lacks honor and sportsmanship, and is a little petty.


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> Its not as black and white as you are trying to make it out to be> I give you credit for reading the rules and asking for clarification, but you are essentially beating a deadhorse.
> 
> As we have all mentioned--if you want specific clarification email Steve Stern or contact someone on the Rules and Ethics committee.
> Or better Yet do both.


I'll email Steve here in a minute. How do I contact the Rules and Ethics Committee? I didn't see a link for that.

Thanks!


----------



## dietDrThunder

highly said:


> Yes, I would walk away. Maybe - just MAYBE - you mention to the judge that his deduction isn't supported by a rule. Anything else lacks honor and sportsmanship, and is a little petty.


So what if the rules say 1 point, but the judge took 5, taking you out of the top 3? What if he took 20?

It's petty and unsportsmanlike to ask the judge to follow the rulebook? Really?


----------



## asota

The way I see it is the speaker enclosure is a extension of the speaker. If the speaker causes the enclosure to make a inaccurate noise it should be judged as system noise .


----------



## Mic10is

Since you're fixated on The rulebook

Please not the following

_14.Judges decisions are final. If a Compeitor has questions concerning misplacement in class or any other irregularity, the Competitor may contact the MECA R&E Committee for review._



To my knowledge you've only been to one show. I highly suggest to attend a few more shows and actually get some experience and some real working knowledge of how the rules work and are interpreted. Since you are in TN you'll likely get Mr.Stern himself Running and or judging many events or Vinny Taylor.

Good luck with your Crusade


----------



## highly

At Finals, a 3x event, if one judge throws you such an egregious score and the other two do not chances are it will be noticed. Even so, scores at this past Finals event dithered by <15 points> between judges for some competitors. This doesn't happen ALL the time, but it happens. As far as I know, nobody contested their score.

If I felt that the judge 'had it out' for me and it showed blatantly on the scoresheet, I might say something. If it was within the normal scope of my scores, I would not. So far - in three years of competing - I have never once contested a score with a judge. I have asked for clarification and learned from it, but I haven;t ever contested.

The rules are guidelines to a subjective experience for the person judging. If they were not, an 85 point car would only ever score 85 points anywhere in the country with every judge that ever sat in it. That's not the way it happens... I've seen everywhere from high 60s to a 90 in the same car with only slight tweaks to the tune over the span of a year. Sometimes things all line up just right, and sometimes they don't.


----------



## chefhow

dietDrThunder said:


> So what if the rules say 1 point, but the judge took 5, taking you out of the top 3? What if he took 20?
> 
> It's petty and unsportsmanlike to ask the judge to follow the rulebook? Really?


The score sheet outlines how many points may be deducted for noise. If its BAD it can be as high as 5 iirc. I have seen on my score sheet as few as .25 and I couldnt ever recreate it myself. I asked what it was, I was told it was a noise coming from the rear of the car, I said thanks and that was it. 

I have judged a car that had such bad whine and noise that it was difficult to actually judge but I could only deduct so many points.


----------



## dietDrThunder

I just had a great conversation with Steve, and he was able to explain this issue as it pertains to the rule book.

He said that it is MECA's official position after careful consideration in the past by the R&E Committee that such noises (buzzes, rattles, etc.) will "confound the listening experience," resulting in deductions in other areas (maybe sound stage, or tonal quality, etc.) anyway. So, to make such noises a separate line item would be "double dipping" and unfairly penalizing the competitor.

Hey, whaddaya know...I'm 2-2 in understanding-the-rules forum posts 

Crusade complete. 

Hey, see you guys (some anyway) in Lebanon this weekend! I'm waiting for my new HU to arrive w/ TA capability...can't hardly stand it!


----------



## KP

If I cannot tell if the 'noise' is coming from the speaker or not I fall on the zero deduction side. I figure for a DEDUCT of valuable points it should be completely clear it is an infraction. Not a guess.

Buzzes, rattles, enclosure resonances, etc are tonality issues. If you are waiting on that perfect stand up bass note and all you get is a buzz, midbass scores suffers.


----------



## strakele

I agree that there should definitely be deductions for rattles and buzzes. That screws up the listening experience infinitely more than the center image being an inch too far right.

Anyway, I also have a question. I thought I knew the rules on this, but after going back and looking, I'm even more confused.

What class do you go in if you cut door metal to install a larger speaker?

At first I assumed cutting metal = modex. But in the rule book, under modified street, it says "Stock speaker locations may be modified, altered, or cut to accommodate aftermarket drivers." It does not specify that the drivers have to be the same size as OEM - that's only a rule for street. It simply says that the grill has to look OEM. Then looking in modified, it says the grills can be rebuilt. 

So if a car comes with 7's in the doors, are you allowed to trim a bit to fit 8's and stay below modex? That's what it reads like...


----------



## dietDrThunder

strakele said:


> I agree that there should definitely be deductions for rattles and buzzes. That screws up the listening experience infinitely more than the center image being an inch too far right.
> 
> Anyway, I also have a question. I thought I knew the rules on this, but after going back and looking, I'm even more confused.
> 
> What class do you go in if you cut door metal to install a larger speaker?
> 
> At first I assumed cutting metal = modex. But in the rule book, under modified street, it says "Stock speaker locations may be modified, altered, or cut to accommodate aftermarket drivers." It does not specify that the drivers have to be the same size as OEM - that's only a rule for street. It simply says that the grill has to look OEM. Then looking in modified, it says the grills can be rebuilt.
> 
> So if a car comes with 7's in the doors, are you allowed to trim a bit to fit 8's and stay below modex? That's what it reads like...


Ya, that one is a bit of a question as written. Modex specifies that you can cut metal, implying that you shouldn't be cutting metal below that class, but the passage you mentioned above says that you can cut the speaker location to fit alternative drivers, as long as the grills maintain an OEM look to them.

You can send email to [email protected] and get an answer for sure. Post up when you get one!


----------



## chefhow

strakele said:


> I agree that there should definitely be deductions for rattles and buzzes. That screws up the listening experience infinitely more than the center image being an inch too far right.
> 
> Anyway, I also have a question. I thought I knew the rules on this, but after going back and looking, I'm even more confused.
> 
> What class do you go in if you cut door metal to install a larger speaker?
> 
> At first I assumed cutting metal = modex. But in the rule book, under modified street, it says "Stock speaker locations may be modified, altered, or cut to accommodate aftermarket drivers." It does not specify that the drivers have to be the same size as OEM - that's only a rule for street. It simply says that the grill has to look OEM. Then looking in modified, it says the grills can be rebuilt.
> 
> So if a car comes with 7's in the doors, are you allowed to trim a bit to fit 8's and stay below modex? That's what it reads like...


I will tell you from the conversation I had with Steve and he had with Vinny, that you can cut your doors behind the panel just dont cut the panel. I wanted to do a grill that retained an OEM look for the new car and sent Steve some pics of what I had wanted to do, he said yes but Vinny and the R&E comittee said no. Ask first so there is CLEAR and CORRECT information being given.


----------



## Mic10is

in Modified you can use the "next size up" speaker. so if the OEM speaker size was a 6.5 you can move to an 8 and cut enough metal to use the next speaker size.


----------



## strakele

Thanks for the clarification!


----------



## Mic10is

dietDrThunder said:


> To be fair, I think that is actually what Vinnie told the prev. poster...I think you guys are in agreement. It was my conversation with him that _led me to believe) that this wasn't the case, but he did not actually say to me that the covering was allowed. It seems that my interpretation was incorrect in this regard.




Not to bring this back from the dead but in an emaill conversation w Dave Hogan , who is on the R&E committee. You cannot cut any holes in the dash unless it is in a removable panel that is easily replaced.
So flush mounting Tweeters by cutting a hole in the dash, would bump you to Modex.

Key phrasing in all the rules below modified is that any modifications done, bust be able to relatively easily be undone to return the vehicle to stock appearance.
removing and replacing a dash is not on the list of easy things to do to return a car to stock

exact quote
_On the dash, only if it's a panel that pops off and can be easily replaced. Having to replace the whole dash is not "easy to return to stock_"

and Kirk, so far as I now, had tweeters mounted where his factory Tweeters were located which are far forward in the front of the dash. My buddy has the same car and mounted them the same way


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> Not to bring this back from the dead but in an emaill conversation w Dave Hogan , who is on the R&E committee. You cannot cut any holes in the dash unless it is in a removable panel that is easily replaced.
> So flush mounting Tweeters by cutting a hole in the dash, would bump you to Modex.
> 
> Key phrasing in all the rules below modified is that any modifications done, bust be able to relatively easily be undone to return the vehicle to stock appearance.
> removing and replacing a dash is not on the list of easy things to do to return a car to stock
> 
> exact quote
> _On the dash, only if it's a panel that pops off and can be easily replaced. Having to replace the whole dash is not "easy to return to stock_"
> 
> and Kirk, so far as I now, had tweeters mounted where his factory Tweeters were located which are far forward in the front of the dash. My buddy has the same car and mounted them the same way





dietDrThunder said:


> Official ruling on the tweeter mounting from Steve, backed up by Vinny:
> 
> The rule in question in this thread (quoted below) is written as it was intended to be enforced. In street class, one may flush mount tweeters, surface mount tweeters, or mount tweeters in custom pods. The exceptions to the 'no cutting' rule are clearly defined as follows...
> 
> E) *Except for the following exceptions,* cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash modifications are prohibited:
> 1. Factory speaker locations may be trimmed to fit same size replacement speaker. In no case can more than 1/2” of total diameter be removed.
> 2.* Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install.*
> 3. The factory radio opening may be modified to accept up to a double din radio, but nut maintain a factory appearance.​
> Steve said that the intent was to allow the flush mounting, and then deferred to Vinny to look at my car to make sure that I was not misinterpreting what it meant to do this.
> 
> Vinny looked at my car and was fine with it. He said that the rule was put in because most components come with simple hardware to either flush them, or surface mount them, and they felt that it was appropriate that 'street' class cars be able to use this basic hardware that is included with speakers. My car uses only the that included hardware, and the dash is simply cut out to fit the body of the tweeter into it.
> 
> I am very happy to report this, as my faith in MECA as a fair organization that abides by its rulebook turned out to be well-founded.


I'm going with Steve, Vinny, and the rulebook. If the rules change, I'll worry about it.


----------



## Mic10is

dietDrThunder said:


> I'm going with Steve, Vinny, and the rulebook. If the rules change, I'll worry about it.



*From Steve and this was sent out to most judges and event promoters*

OK, talked with Vinny and here is the clarification on mounting tweeters in dash.

If the dash is cut to install the speakers, then that is Modex.

If there is a removable panel on the dash that can be used, and replaced, then that would be Street.

I hope that helps to answer your question.


Thanks
Steve

MECA, Inc.
Mobile Electronics Competition Association, Inc.
5308 Brick Church Pike
Goodlettsville, TN 37072-9014

615-851-7428 Office
615-855-3460 Fax
615-476-7428 Mobile

[email protected]


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> *From Steve*
> 
> OK, talked with Vinny and here is the clarification on mounting tweeters in dash.
> 
> If the dash is cut to install the speakers, then that is Modex.
> 
> If there is a removable panel on the dash that can be used, and replaced, then that would be Street.
> 
> I hope that helps to answer your question.
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Steve
> 
> MECA, Inc.
> Mobile Electronics Competition Association, Inc.
> 5308 Brick Church Pike
> Goodlettsville, TN 37072-9014
> 
> 615-851-7428 Office
> 615-855-3460 Fax
> 615-476-7428 Mobile
> 
> [email protected]


That's awesome...that is exactly the opposite of what both of them told me in person, with my car present (only Vinnie looked at the car). I actually sent an email a little bit ago to Steve as well...I'm not sure why there is all of this contradiction, but I guess we'll find out.


----------



## MacLeod

Yeah that goes against everything I've been told since 2005. You can flush mount the tweeters in street but if you cut a hole in the dash to do it, you're in modex. Wut? How can you flush mount tweeters without cutting a hole?

That's something they need to word a little better in the rules. That's a pretty big jump from street to modex simply for flush mounting your tweeters.


----------



## Mic10is

MacLeod said:


> Yeah that goes against everything I've been told since 2005. You can flush mount the tweeters in street but if you cut a hole in the dash to do it, you're in modex. Wut? How can you flush mount tweeters without cutting a hole?
> 
> That's something they need to word a little better in the rules. That's a pretty big jump from street to modex simply for flush mounting your tweeters.


Thanks to Dave and his questions--we have been having some really great discussions amongst all the MECA judges and show promoters.

addendum to the rules will be added to further clarify any grey areas in the coming weeks.

but its been unanimous consensus that unless there is a removable panel or grill, that you cannot cut a hole of any size to mount any size speaker, tweeter or otherwise in the DASH in any class except Modex.
Especially considering that there are other mounting options such as sail and apillar


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> Thanks to Dave and his questions--we have been having some really great discussions amongst all the MECA judges and show promoters.
> 
> addendum to the rules will be added to further clarify any grey areas in the coming weeks.
> 
> but its been unanimous consensus that unless there is a removable panel or grill, that you cannot cut a hole of any size to mount any size speaker, tweeter or otherwise in the DASH in any class except Modex.
> Especially considering that there are other mounting options such as sail and apillar


lol...there is nothing "unanimous" about it. Steve told me that my interpretation was correct last month, followed by Vinny personally inspecting my install and saying that it was legal, then explaining to me why it was legal, then going on to judge my car in 'street' class.

That, and the fact that there is nothing at all in the rules about replaceable panels or whatever. It does sound like those things might make it into the rules for next year.

Steve has also told me on the phone that under no circumstances will there be rule changes during the season. And as I've quoted here a couple of times now, the rules clearly state that flush mounting tweeters in the dash is a defined exception to the 'no cutting' rule.

It isn't as cut and dried as you might think (as evidenced by the contradictory statements from Steve and Vinny on the matter). I'll be at the event on Sunday and there will be an in-person discussion and final ruling for this season.


----------



## MacLeod

Doesn't matter to me but I don't see the point of it. If its sitting in a 2" hole flush or a piece of PVC end cap it'll still sound the same. Its strictly done for appearance and I don't think things done for appearance that don't affect the sound shouldn't bump you out of a class.


----------



## dietDrThunder

MacLeod said:


> Doesn't matter to me but I don't see the point of it. If its sitting in a 2" hole flush or a piece of PVC end cap it'll still sound the same. Its strictly done for appearance and I don't think things done for appearance that don't affect the sound shouldn't bump you out of a class.


I understand your point too, but I don't think this is really the main issue. To me, the issue is that the rule book clearly defines this issue in unambiguous language...there isn't any grey area in it. And yet, in a complete mystery to me, there is all of this controversy.

I still believe that when the folks in charge sit down and read the rules as they are written, sanity will prevail. Then, if changes are needed for next year for this replaceable panel stuff or whatever else, they'll be properly and carefully written into the 2013 rule book.


----------



## MacLeod

Yeah ya gotta spell it out in the rule book so newbies riding up with their street install don't get pissed when they get bumped into Steve Cook's class when the only difference between the newbie install and other street installs is something done for appearance. 

If you can't flush mount tweeters in the dash unless its in a small, removable panel, the rules should say exactly that.


----------



## dietDrThunder

MacLeod said:


> Yeah ya gotta spell it out in the rule book so newbies riding up with their street install don't get pissed when they get bumped into Steve Cook's class when the only difference between the newbie install and other street installs is something done for appearance.
> 
> If you can't flush mount tweeters in the dash unless its in a small, removable panel, the rules should say exactly that.


I agree.

But more than that, you can't just declare that an install is illegal if you can't point at a rule that is being broken.


----------



## chefhow

What the rules say is that you cant cut your dash. Period, unless you want to move up to ModEx. Aaron you know it as well as every other competitor. Its been that way for years and it wont change. 

I showed up to Finals this past year with a "custom" made 1/4" dash mat because there was no dash mat for sale ANYWHERE for my car. I was told to remove it unless I wanted to move up to Modified. It was by Vinny, Steve had judged my car with it at a show last year and didnt say anything, Tom Shaw did as did a few other judges. Nobody told me no until Finals and my car was tuned. Point is Vinny doesnt know everything and if you want a ruling on a rule go to Dave Hogan he is in charge of the R&E commitee.

This is cut and pasted from the rule book. Where does it say that you can cut your dash to add a tweeter?

*E) Except for the following exceptions, cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash modifications are prohibited:
1. Factory speaker locations may be trimmed to fit same size replacement speaker. In no case can more than 1/2” of total diameter be removed.
2. Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install.
3. The factory radio opening may be modified to accept up to a double din radio, but nut maintain a factory appearance.*


----------



## Mic10is

dietDrThunder said:


> lol...there is nothing "unanimous" about it. Steve told me that my interpretation was correct last month, followed by Vinny personally inspecting my install and saying that it was legal, then explaining to me why it was legal, then going on to judge my car in 'street' class.
> 
> That, and the fact that there is nothing at all in the rules about replaceable panels or whatever. It does sound like those things might make it into the rules for next year.
> 
> Steve has also told me on the phone that under no circumstances will there be rule changes during the season. And as I've quoted here a couple of times now, the rules clearly state that flush mounting tweeters in the dash is a defined exception to the 'no cutting' rule.
> 
> It isn't as cut and dried as you might think (as evidenced by the contradictory statements from Steve and Vinny on the matter). I'll be at the event on Sunday and there will be an in-person discussion and final ruling for this season.



Oh really? so you were included on the 20+ emails going back and forth between all the judges and event coordinators? Thats good to know, bc I didnt see your name on the list of sent. Why havent you jumped in on the conversation then?


----------



## Mic10is

chefhow said:


> What the rules say is that you cant cut your dash. Period, unless you want to move up to ModEx. Aaron you know it as well as every other competitor. Its been that way for years and it wont change.
> 
> I showed up to Finals this past year with a "custom" made 1/4" dash mat because there was no dash mat for sale ANYWHERE for my car. I was told to remove it unless I wanted to move up to Modified. It was by Vinny, Steve had judged my car with it at a show last year and didnt say anything, Tom Shaw did as did a few other judges. Nobody told me no until Finals and my car was tuned. Point is Vinny doesnt know everything and if you want a ruling on a rule go to Dave Hogan he is in charge of the R&E commitee.
> 
> This is cut and pasted from the rule book. Where does it say that you can cut your dash to add a tweeter?
> 
> *E) Except for the following exceptions, cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash modifications are prohibited:
> 1. Factory speaker locations may be trimmed to fit same size replacement speaker. In no case can more than 1/2” of total diameter be removed.
> 2. Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install.
> 3. The factory radio opening may be modified to accept up to a double din radio, but nut maintain a factory appearance.*


Highlighted part is key. They are not separate items, you can flush,surface or custom mount a tweeter if its in a pod.

and all the rules follow a logical progression of install modifications to the vehicle from least to extreme.
Key part of all modifications in class below Modex is that they vehicle can be returned to stock with little to no effort
replacing an entire DASH is requires more effort than replacing a pillar or a sail panel.


----------



## dietDrThunder

chefhow said:


> What the rules say is that you cant cut your dash. Period, unless you want to move up to ModEx. Aaron you know it as well as every other competitor. Its been that way for years and it wont change.
> 
> I showed up to Finals this past year with a "custom" made 1/4" dash mat because there was no dash mat for sale ANYWHERE for my car. I was told to remove it unless I wanted to move up to Modified. It was by Vinny, Steve had judged my car with it at a show last year and didnt say anything, Tom Shaw did as did a few other judges. Nobody told me no until Finals and my car was tuned. Point is Vinny doesnt know everything and if you want a ruling on a rule go to Dave Hogan he is in charge of the R&E commitee.
> 
> This is cut and pasted from the rule book. Where does it say that you can cut your dash to add a tweeter?
> 
> *E) Except for the following exceptions, cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash modifications are prohibited:
> 1. Factory speaker locations may be trimmed to fit same size replacement speaker. In no case can more than 1/2” of total diameter be removed.
> 2. Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install.
> 3. The factory radio opening may be modified to accept up to a double din radio, but nut maintain a factory appearance.*


See below. You quoted the very section that states it.

E) *Except for the following exceptions,* cutting sheet metal, plastic, or *dash modifications are prohibited*:
1. Factory speaker locations may be trimmed to fit same size replacement speaker. In no case can more than 1/2” of total diameter be removed.
2. *Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install.*
3. The factory radio opening may be modified to accept up to a double din radio, but nut maintain a factory appearance.​
I don't see what's unclear about that. It clearly allows flush mounting tweeters as an exception to the 'no cutting or mod' rule. Unless you can explain to me how you can flush mount tweeters in a dash without cutting the dash...?


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> Oh really? so you were included on the 20+ emails going back and forth between all the judges and event coordinators? Thats good to know, bc I didnt see your name on the list of sent. Why havent you jumped in on the conversation then?


Listen, there is no reason to be a dick. I went to the head of the organization to get a ruling. He said that it sounded legal to him, but I needed to run it past Vinnie to get the official decision. I did that, and he told me it was legal. He then judged the car.

Chef, I asked the pres what I needed to do, he told me, and I did it. If that doesn't constitute an official ruling, then nothing does. If I skated along without asking anyone and then got ruled out because of a rule that I ignored or didn't comply with, that would be completely fine. But I did all reasonable due dilligence to follow the rule. I followed the wording, I went to great lengths to mount them in the dash just like Kia does it, in order to "provide a factory look to the install" and I then had the install confirmed both by the pres. and the "go-to guy" (Steve's words) at a show, both of whom declared it legal.

If there is something in there that I should have done and didn't do, I'd love to hear it.


----------



## MacLeod

dietDrThunder said:


> See below. You quoted the very section that states it.
> 
> E) *Except for the following exceptions,* cutting sheet metal, plastic, or *dash modifications are prohibited*:
> 1. Factory speaker locations may be trimmed to fit same size replacement speaker. In no case can more than 1/2” of total diameter be removed.
> 2. *Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install.*
> 3. The factory radio opening may be modified to accept up to a double din radio, but nut maintain a factory appearance.​
> I don't see what's unclear about that. It clearly allows flush mounting tweeters as an exception to the 'no cutting or mod' rule. Unless you can explain to me how you can flush mount tweeters in a dash without cutting the dash...?


 

Exactly! "Can't cut the dash with the following exceptions: flush mounting tweeters". 

Pretty cut and dried to me.


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> Highlighted part is key. They are not separate items, you can flush,surface or custom mount a tweeter if its in a pod.
> 
> and all the rules follow a logical progression of install modifications to the vehicle from least to extreme.
> Key part of all modifications in class below Modex is that they vehicle can be returned to stock with little to no effort
> replacing an entire DASH is requires more effort than replacing a pillar or a sail panel.


None of that even makes any sense. Could you describe what it means to surface mount a tweeter in a pod, vs. flush mounting a tweeter in a pod? Isn't every pod mounted tweeter going to be custom, and flush in the pod? If so, then why is that language there about flush or surface mounting?

EDIT: and another thing...why does it both specify the dash in the exception, then say "provide a factory look to the install" if it's only talking about pods? Are we seeing lots of OEM tweeter pods on the dashboard these days? Again...makes no sense.

Besides, how are the rules following any logical procession? You haven't mentioned a thing that actually is _in_ the rules yet. What about this "key part" thing talking about easily returning the car back to stock?. Where is this in the street rules? What about the replaceable panels? I mean, we do use the rule book right?


----------



## Mic10is

dietDrThunder said:


> Listen, there is no reason to be a dick. I went to the head of the organization to get a ruling. He said that it sounded legal to him, but I needed to run it past Vinnie to get the official decision. he told me it was legal. He then judged the car.
> 
> Chef, I asked the pres what I needed to do, he told me, and I did it. If that doesn't constitute an official ruling, then nothing does.


hey dude, Ive been trying to help you out this entire time--but you want to keep pressing the issue. I am giving a real time update of what is going on and what the ruling will be.

When the rule by itself is read out of context without taking into account that its progressive class to class and meant for vehicle to be returned to stock-then yes it seems legal.
but when the rules are read in the full context of how all the rules are written then it is clearly not legal.


----------



## dietDrThunder

I want to re-iterate this:

I'm all about re-writing the rules if they aren't currently reflecting what the MECA folks want in the class structure. Hell, I volunteered to assist with that a couple of months ago in a call to Steve. I am a firm believer that the rule book needs to be clear, equitable, and enforceable. Competitors and judges alike _must_ be able to rely on it 99.9% of the time to clarify any question, and the other .1% should be subtle interpretation brought on by unforeseen circumstance.

What we're talking about here is not that. I hope people are clear here that this is not one of those cases where some assclown is hopping up and down and pointing at the rulebook yelping "Oh no no NO! This says "IF" not "IS" ha ha HA! Got you!" I am absolutely not that guy. I am all about the spirit of the rules, _as written_.

In this case, the rule (at best) can so easily be interpreted multiple ways that the president of the org and one of the head tech and rules guys both declared my install to be legal at a show. At worst, the rule clearly defines what can be done as mod/cut exceptions in exactly the opposite way that was intended at some point.

Either way, this obviously needs attention, and now it's getting it, so that's a positive. Like I said, I am confident that sanity will prevail, and people will realize that you have to follow the rulebook. Steve told me in no uncertain terms last month on the phone, that there would never be a rule change mid-season, so here's hoping that is the case.

On a total side note, many of you don't know me. In case you think that I'm a guy trying desperately to sneak in some monster system into a lower class, that is waaay not the case. I have a $300 head unit, $200 components in the front, (1) $150 sub, a 4ch $165 amp driving the fronts and a $130 mono amp on the sub. That is my entire system. Most competitors have more money in their head unit than I do in the whole system. I'm confident that it is the most modest system that is regularly competing, and I can't imagine ever winning anything. I'm just there because it's fun to check out people's stuff and get feedback.

The dash mount in question consists of me having gouged (2) 2" holes in my dash with a dremel to stick the tweeters into the aforementioned flush mount.


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> hey dude, Ive been trying to help you out this entire time--but you want to keep pressing the issue. I am giving a real time update of what is going on and what the ruling will be.
> 
> When the rule by itself is read out of context without taking into account that its progressive class to class and meant for vehicle to be returned to stock-then yes it seems legal.
> but when the rules are read in the full context of how all the rules are written then it is clearly not legal.


I didn't press anything. There was an initial post about it here a while back. I was told to go get a ruling. I went directly to the Pres. He gave me a tentative thumbs-up pending Vinny reviewing the car. Vinny did so, and said it was legal, and went on to explain to me why it was legal.

A month later, you popped in here with a quote from another guy about how it's now not legal, and how everyone is agreeing. How would you react to that? It's not like I randomly decided to defy MECA. I went to the authority, and got the ok. What else should I have done?

And, if this is so clearly illegal, why did Steve and Vinny both rule it legal? Can you explain that? Vinny was in my car at the time. I'd say that "clear" is probably a bit of a stretch. I have read the rules cover to cover many times, and there is nothing in any of the class rules that talks about how easy it is to return to stock. In the 'modified' and 'modex' rules there is a characterization in there saying that mod is for cars that "can be returned to stock" and modex is for "modifications that cannot be returned to stock." That's it...there is no other mention of this. There is also not one mention anywhere in the rules about "removable panels" or even anything that hints towards that.

So...could you explain how that relates to the 'street' class, and how it somehow translates into "easily return to stock?" It just isn't in there...context has nothing to do with it.


----------



## dietDrThunder

I'm not going to make another post on the matter, as obviously nobody here is going to agree.

In all kinds of competition, if a competitor is judged to be breaking a rule, the official making that judgement _must_ be able to show what rule is being broken. The rules clearly state that flush mounting tweeters is a defined exception to the 'no dash cutting or mods' rule. This (in answer to my own question above) is why both Steve and Vinny declared my install legal when I pointed out the rule and showed my car.

If that wasn't the intent, then hopefully it will be fixed for next year and we can think up something else to argue about.

Good luck this year, and I hope everyone has as much fun as I am having (except for this, which is agony).


----------



## dietDrThunder

Mic10is said:


> in Modified you can use the "next size up" speaker. so if the OEM speaker size was a 6.5 you can move to an 8 and cut enough metal to use the next speaker size.


Not to be a dick myself, but this isn't in the rules either  This is what the rules say (as if anyone cares what the actual rules have to say...)


C) Door Panels, grill covers, etc. may be modified or rebuilt to accommodate speakers, Kick Panels may accommodate any size
speaker and Floor Speakers may be added, however they may not be cut into the floor. Speakers may not be externally vented.​
Ok, I'm out!  Where's that 'unsubscribe' button...


----------



## Mic10is

dietDrThunder said:


> I'm not going to make another post on the matter, as obviously nobody here is going to agree.
> 
> In all kinds of competition, if a competitor is judged to be breaking a rule, the official making that judgement _must_ be able to show what rule is being broken. The rules clearly state that flush mounting tweeters is a defined exception to the 'no dash cutting or mods' rule. This (in answer to my own question above) is why both Steve and Vinny declared my install legal when I pointed out the rule and showed my car.
> 
> If that wasn't the intent, then hopefully it will be fixed for next year and we can think up something else to argue about.
> 
> Good luck this year, and I hope everyone has as much fun as I am having (except for this, which is agony).


again, thank you for bringing to light some grey areas in the rulebook.
Steve and all the MECA judges are working to make the lines much darker and the rules as black and white as possible.

People make mistakes. Plain and simple especially when there are many other things going on at shows etc...


----------



## MacLeod

I dont think dude was bitching or complaining but actually had a legit beef. He came here with a question and couldnt get a clear answer so he goes to the boss himself and gets a ruling. Then sees a different ruling just a few days later. Id raise an eyebrow or two at that myself. 

Bottom line is Steve is the boss and if he says this is the final ruling, then thats the way it is. But hopefully this has brought to light something that needs to be clarified better in the rules and Im sure theyll get this fixed up for the 2013 version. Discussions like this are good for clearing up hazy or misleading wording in the rule books.


----------



## Mic10is

MacLeod said:


> I dont think dude was bitching or complaining but actually had a legit beef. He came here with a question and couldnt get a clear answer so he goes to the boss himself and gets a ruling. Then sees a different ruling just a few days later. Id raise an eyebrow or two at that myself.
> 
> Bottom line is Steve is the boss and if he says this is the final ruling, then thats the way it is. But hopefully this has brought to light something that needs to be clarified better in the rules and Im sure theyll get this fixed up for the 2013 version. Discussions like this are good for clearing up hazy or misleading wording in the rule books.



I am working on an install and I asked a similar question to Dave Hogan who has been correct 100% of the time and has also always taken the time, when he doesnt know the answer to forward it for review to R&E and gotten me a definitive answer.

I then emailed Steve with the question, who forwarded it to Vinny and upon further review of all the rules, came back with the above ruling.
Which is the only reason I brought this issue up again bc it was contradictory what was said here or understood by others.
Since then, it has gone through just about every MECA judge and come back with the same agreement as posted above.

I would hope there is an immediate adjustment to the rules either via rulebook change or addendum since it is still early enough in the season for people to comply with rules and accumulate points for Finals.
With the new disc looming in the near future, it becomes a natural progression to add an addendum to the rules to make adjustments and clear any grey areas.

Again, those of us who have been doing this for so long, we sometimes forget that things that seem common sense to us may not be for the new guy.
so Thank You again Dave for bringing this situation to light.


----------



## decibelle

Umm... when IS the new disc being implemented?


----------



## bigbubba

millerlyte said:


> Umm... when IS the new disc being implemented?


I would like to know this as well. Since Sunday will be my first contest, I will be purchasing a membership and the SQ cd and I would hate for the new one to come out a few weeks later (or something) and have to buy another one.


----------



## Mic10is

millerlyte said:


> Umm... when IS the new disc being implemented?


:shrug:


----------



## decibelle

I thought you knew everything.


----------



## Mic10is

millerlyte said:


> I thought you knew everything.


Nope, Sorry. If theres one thing I do know its that I dont know everything. Many things, but not everything

If I hear something new, I am more than happy to let others know, but as of now-I havent a clue... I know its coming Between now and October and it wont be a surprise change for Finals or anything like that for sure.


----------



## KP

I was wondering what brought on the e-mails.........

I just sent my thoughts.

I was under the impression tweets(as defined as 2" or less, small format-1 pair) could be added for Street. Mids/midbass/sub(s) placement/installation technique is what decided the classes. Given the MECA approved tweet was installed in a way it appears stock. 

Mids/midbass/subs(s) placement/installation technique should decide the class.

Not chosing a side. I do not know anyone directly involved very well at all. Strictly my opinion.


----------



## ErinH

honestly, I can see both sides of this.

it seems to me that the apillar keeps you in street. anything outside of that could push you in to modex. At least, that's what the rules seem to be for now. If they get changed, then ....
I haven't read through all the rules but my general perusing lead me to that, so....

It sucks that someone built their car around the rules as explained to him by the powers that be and may be bumped up in to another class, though, so I certainly understand the frustration. I say we all have a get together and do nothing but help each other tune cars. That way no one will feel out of place when the rules get changed and they get bumped. lol

(I'm actually half serious, though)


----------



## chefhow

AcuraTLSQ said:


> I was wondering what brought on the e-mails.........
> 
> I just sent my thoughts.
> 
> I was under the impression tweets(as defined as 2" or less, small format-1 pair) could be added for Street. Mids/midbass/sub(s) placement/installation technique is what decided the classes. Given the MECA approved tweet was installed in a way it appears stock.
> 
> Mids/midbass/subs(s) placement/installation technique should decide the class.
> 
> Not chosing a side. I do not know anyone directly involved very well at all. Strictly my opinion.


Its not about adding a pair of tweeters, you can do that, its about cutting 2 2" holes in your dash and you cant do that.


----------



## Mic10is

All MECA classes are based on modifications done to the vehicle/interior. Its an idea that MECA pioneered when everyone else was still separating using power ratings and its now the prevailing method for separating classes.


----------



## pionkej

I don't have a dog in this fight, but since this has turned into a pretty big ordeal...I figure adding my .02 can't hurt.

I'll be honest and say that I thought modifying the dash in any way bumped a person into Modex. I'll also vouch for Dave that Steve said he thought it was ok but to defer to Vinny for ruling and that Vinny looked at it and said it was ok. I was there for both. I see no way to fault a guy for asking the guy he was told, by Steve, would have ultimate say and rolling with the ruling.

I'll say that reading the rules the way Dave has interpreted them makes sense to me. I'll say that reading the rules the way Mic has presented them ALSO makes sense to me.

However, and this is my last point, if the rules do read the way Mic has presented them I still see a problem. If you can add tweeters, in a pod, anywhere that provide a factory appearance, what happens if you can apply that pod to your dash? At that point, for safety, you still have to drill holes to secure the pod. You also need to drill a hole to run the power wire through the dash. How do these holes make the car able to be "easily returned to stock"? I personally don't see any difference. 

I'm not trying to fuel the fire here. I just think it's a justifiable point that should be mentioned.


----------



## Mic10is

pionkej said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight, but since this has turned into a pretty big ordeal...I figure adding my .02 can't hurt.
> 
> I'll be honest and say that I thought modifying the dash in any way bumped a person into Modex. I'll also vouch for Dave that Steve said he thought it was ok but to defer to Vinny for ruling and that Vinny looked at it and said it was ok. I was there for both. I see no way to fault a guy for asking the guy he was told, by Steve, would have ultimate say and rolling with the ruling.
> 
> I'll say that reading the rules the way Dave has interpreted them makes sense to me. I'll say that reading the rules the way Mic has presented them ALSO makes sense to me.
> 
> However, and this is my last point, if the rules do read the way Mic has presented them I still see a problem. If you can add tweeters, in a pod, anywhere that provide a factory appearance, what happens if you can apply that pod to your dash? At that point, for safety, you still have to drill holes to secure the pod. You also need to drill a hole to run the power wire through the dash. How do these holes make the car able to be "easily returned to stock"? I personally don't see any difference.
> 
> I'm not trying to fuel the fire here. I just think it's a justifiable point that should be mentioned.


figures youd be THAT guy
I actually asked the same question yesterday,knowing there would be some guy somewhere who would say a screw hole is still a hole. a screw hole is fine even in stock class.


----------



## Mic10is

pionkej said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight, but since this has turned into a pretty big ordeal...I figure adding my .02 can't hurt.
> 
> I'll be honest and say that I thought modifying the dash in any way bumped a person into Modex. I'll also vouch for Dave that Steve said he thought it was ok but to defer to Vinny for ruling and that Vinny looked at it and said it was ok. I was there for both. I see no way to fault a guy for asking the guy he was told, by Steve, would have ultimate say and rolling with the ruling.
> 
> I'll say that reading the rules the way Dave has interpreted them makes sense to me. *I'll say that reading the rules the way Mic has presented them ALSO makes sense to me.*
> 
> However, and this is my last point, if the rules do read the way Mic has presented them I still see a problem. If you can add tweeters, in a pod, anywhere that provide a factory appearance, what happens if you can apply that pod to your dash? At that point, for safety, you still have to drill holes to secure the pod. You also need to drill a hole to run the power wire through the dash. How do these holes make the car able to be "easily returned to stock"? I personally don't see any difference.
> 
> I'm not trying to fuel the fire here. I just think it's a justifiable point that should be mentioned.



MECA Rules classifications are built upon each class. Stock. then building on Stock Rules, you goto Street. then Mod Street etc...
That is even how the rules read and are meant to be read.
Not the most efficient way to convey a rule, but thats how its done.

So from The rulebook

Stock
Other than the Head Unit and an optional pair of tweeters, vehicles in Stock should retain a stock appearance through-out the vehicle.. Stock is 
open to Consumer, Sponsored, and Professional Competitors. Manufacturer Vehicles are not permitted in Stock.
The full 100 Point MECA Sound Quality score sheet will be used to evaluate the system.

I) All speakers (except for subwoofer(s) and 1 pair of tweeters less than 2” in diameter) will be placed in stock locations as originally provided 
from the manufacturer without making any alterations and will not hinder the vehicle’s operation or visual appearance. 
*Tweeters may be mounted on door panels, dash, or A-pillars with basic hardware, but no tweeter pods or build-outs are permitted. * Door panels 
may not be modiﬁed in any way. Venting speakers outside the vehicle is not permitted.

Street
*A step up from Stock Class,* Street includes Competitors that still choose not to modify their vehicle’s interior or overall aesthetics for sound 
quality purposes, but allows a little more ﬂexibility with installation and equipment. *Street follows Stock Veriﬁcation Criteria with the following 
exceptions:*

2. Tweeters may be ﬂush, surface, or custom mounted* in pods *designed to provide a factory look to the install.


I completely agree that the rules as written are not the easiest to understand and interpret and some things are implied bc they are written by guys who have been in car audio and competition for quite awhile.


But since it specifically states that in Stock that tweeter pods are prohibited.
Then Street is a step up from Stock, which then allows the use of Tweeter pods.

Nowhere does it say that you can cut a hole in any area to flush mount a Tweeter.
in fact another rule clearly states
1. Factory speaker locations may be trimmed to ﬁt same size replacement speaker. * In no case can more than 1/2” of total diameter be removed*


So reading only one line of a rule is where the confusion has come into play, bc they are all written building upon the class "below" it.

We move on to Modified

A) Functional Components of the vehicle may be utilized as the Competitor sees ﬁt. Windows must still be able to roll down, *Dash 
may not be rebuilt or altered. Speaker pods may be added to the dash, pillars, or ﬂoors*

Still cant cut the Dash in modified

It isnt until Modex that the rule clearly says

A) Windows do not have to roll down. *Dash may not be completely rebuilt but may be altered, however all original instruments must 
remain in the factory location*


----------



## MacLeod

AcuraTLSQ said:


> I was wondering what brought on the e-mails.........
> 
> I just sent my thoughts.
> 
> I was under the impression tweets(as defined as 2" or less, small format-1 pair) could be added for Street. Mids/midbass/sub(s) placement/installation technique is what decided the classes. Given the MECA approved tweet was installed in a way it appears stock.
> 
> Mids/midbass/subs(s) placement/installation technique should decide the class.
> 
> Not chosing a side. I do not know anyone directly involved very well at all. Strictly my opinion.


Totally agree with ya Kirk. This is the assumption you and I both worked under for years....and with flush mounted tweets no less. The rules plainly state you can flush mount tweeters in street and does not say you can't stick them in the dash. Especially like I said, its only for appearance because a flush mounted tweeter will sound just like a surface mounted tweeter. The only difference is the flush mounted tweet will look more stock. 

Makes zero sense to me.


----------



## asota

I do agree with Mic 100% (this doesn't happen that often lol) the rule is clearly stated other than the replaceable panel thing. One thing I do find unclear is where was Vinnie's head at on the day of that show. I do honestly feel sorry for diet not for cutting his dash (most of us on here told him not to) but the way the rules are he now has to compete in a class full of pro cars that have a decided advantage over the average hobbyist.


----------



## MacLeod

asota said:


> I do agree with Mic 100% (this doesn't happen that often lol) the rule is clearly stated other than the replaceable panel thing. One thing I do find unclear is where was Vinnie's head at on the day of that show. I do honestly feel sorry for diet not for cutting his dash (most of us on here told him not to) but the way the rules are he now has to compete in a class full of pro cars that have a decided advantage over the average hobbyist.


I disagree, the rule does not clearly state that in fact I'd argue it doesn't state that at all. The rules say you cant modify the dash with the exception of flush mounting tweeters. That is almost verbatim. Its impossible to flush mount tweeters without cutting a hole. I don't know where the R&E guys are getting this interpretation because not only is it something that's different from what we've always done but the rule book simply does not say you can't flush mount tweets in the dash. It literally says you can!


----------



## asota

Tweeters may be ﬂush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install. This rule cann't be any clearer if it read the way you say it would read : Tweeters may be flush, surface, custom mounted, or in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install. This can't be any clearer IMO.


----------



## decibelle

The issue with Dave's install has since been resolved yesterday at Spring Fling.


----------



## MacLeod

asota said:


> Tweeters may be ﬂush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install. This rule cann't be any clearer if it read the way you say it would read : Tweeters may be flush, surface, custom mounted, or in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install. This can't be any clearer IMO.


Wut?

The rules say:





> E) Except for the following exceptions, cutting sheet metal, plastic, or dash modifications are prohibited:


You can't touch the dash except for the following exceptions.



> 2. Tweeters may be flush, surface, or custom mounted in pods designed to provide a factory look to the install.


Those exceptions are that you can flush mount, surface mount or use custom pods. 

That is clear as day to me, flush mounting is OK and you can't flush mount without cutting a hole. Doesn't say anything about removable panels

If Steve and the R&E guys don't want to allow flush mounted dash tweets that's totally cool with me. I'm not arguing that they should be allowed. I'm just saying that the rule book clearly says the opposite of what the R&E guys are saying and should be changed to reflect what they're wanting to avoid confusion.

*edit

There are several of us that don't agree so it doesn't matter who's right really. The fact that we're all interpreting this different proves they need to change the wording. Doing that solves the issue. 

Sent from my HTC Thunderbolt using Tapatalk 2


----------



## KP

millerlyte said:


> The issue with Dave's install has since been resolved yesterday at Spring Fling.


Moving them to the pillars?


----------



## bigbubba

I have a question about rules related to waveguides. In the rules it mentions that you can not use waveguides in Stock class but it does not mention it anywhere else, specifically, that I can find. I just want to make sure I am understanding the rules correctly. I can use waveguides in any class EXCEPT stock. Is this correct?


----------



## Mic10is

bigbubba said:


> I have a question about rules related to waveguides. In the rules it mentions that you can not use waveguides in Stock class but it does not mention it anywhere else, specifically, that I can find. I just want to make sure I am understanding the rules correctly. I can use waveguides in any class EXCEPT stock. Is this correct?


lowest class you can use waveguide/hlcds is Mod Street. No metal can be cut to mount them and a limited amount of modifications to other panels maybe done.

In many cars, the kick panel has to be modified to accommodate the horn mount--so it just depends on the extent of the mods to decide between mod and mod street


----------



## bigbubba

That's kinda what I was thinking but wanted to make sure since there was no other mention of them after Stock class. I want them to be mounted properly but at the same time modify as little as possible.

Thanks


----------



## Mic10is

bigbubba said:


> That's kinda what I was thinking but wanted to make sure since there was no other mention of them after Stock class. I want them to be mounted properly but at the same time modify as little as possible.
> 
> Thanks


PM me info on vehicle etc...Ill see if I can help
Every championship I have won has been w Horns....its usin these round speakers thats a challenge for me


----------



## bigbubba

Mic10is said:


> PM me info on vehicle etc...Ill see if I can help
> Every championship I have won has been w Horns....its usin these round speakers thats a challenge for me


They are going in my 2004 Monte Carlo. I have a few pics of them kinda taped up in their location to see what kinda room I have to deal with. I think the center section of my dash and console may cause some imaging issues but we'll see. I can post/email the pics when I get home tonight if that will help.

Thanks


----------



## spl152db

is ensolite considered a sound absorbing foam? pg 21, stock, "L)"
also if a larger than factory speaker will fit (1/4 of an inch) and doesn't require modification to the door or door panel, is that acceptable? There is no mention of it in stock, but street "E-1" shows that a same size speaker must be used.


----------



## spl152db

bump for answers.


----------



## highly

spl152db said:


> is ensolite considered a sound absorbing foam? pg 21, stock, "L)"
> also if a larger than factory speaker will fit (1/4 of an inch) and doesn't require modification to the door or door panel, is that acceptable? There is no mention of it in stock, but street "E-1" shows that a same size speaker must be used.


Ensolite: If it is used on the outside of a panel, yes. On the back side of a panel to reduce squeaks, no.

Speaker: If it is mentioned as a restriction in a *higher *class it would be safe to assume that the same size speaker is required. 

That does bring us to the question of 'size' and the method by which it is measured. (hey, now!) Surround diameter? Mounting diameter? Depth? Flange footprint? Manufacturer classification? 

I would expect a speaker that <fits the factory location without trimming> would be considered the 'same size speaker'. I, however, am not the person you'd have to convince of that.


----------



## spl152db

ok the ensolite covers my entire door and parts of my door panel. That is considered sound absorbing? its not visible when the door panel is installed. It can't possibly affect the acoustic reflections of the front sound waves.


----------



## spl152db

highly said:


> Ensolite: If it is used on the outside of a panel, yes. On the back side of a panel to reduce squeaks, no.
> 
> Speaker: If it is mentioned as a restriction in a *higher *class it would be safe to assume that the same size speaker is required.
> 
> That does bring us to the question of 'size' and the method by which it is measured. (hey, now!) Surround diameter? Mounting diameter? Depth? Flange footprint? Manufacturer classification?
> 
> I would expect a speaker that <fits the factory location without trimming> would be considered the 'same size speaker'. I, however, am not the person you'd have to convince of that.


I was told I could make trim rings to mount the speakers onto. But they also said tweeter pods were ok stock (not true according to rules). stupid A pillar isn't flat. Oh well. I'll get it all in there, if there's a problem, I'll have a set of smaller mids I can swap in and retune quickly.


----------



## highly

spl152db said:


> ok the ensolite covers my entire door and parts of my door panel. That is considered sound absorbing? its not visible when the door panel is installed. It can't possibly affect the acoustic reflections of the front sound waves.


Let me clarify, as "outside the panel" doesn't appear to be getting it. How about this... if ensolite is covering any surface that you can see on a car in a showroom then it's no good. If you can't see it because it is covered up by a body panel or trim panel or factory covering then it's fine. The idea is that you don't recover your door in acoustic material - or dash - or sunvisors - or windshield... how you choose to use it inside of a panel is up to you, as evidenced by the rule that follows. In this case, you are using Ensolite as if it were sound deadening material in the rule K, so that is fine.

That clear? If you have to remove a panel to see it, you are OK (Rule K). If you can see it without removing a panel that's no good (Rule L).


----------



## spl152db

highly said:


> Ensolite: If it is used on the outside of a panel, yes. On the back side of a panel to reduce squeaks, no.
> 
> Speaker: If it is mentioned as a restriction in a *higher *class it would be safe to assume that the same size speaker is required.
> 
> That does bring us to the question of 'size' and the method by which it is measured. (hey, now!) Surround diameter? Mounting diameter? Depth? Flange footprint? Manufacturer classification?
> 
> I would expect a speaker that <fits the factory location without trimming> would be considered the 'same size speaker'. I, however, am not the person you'd have to convince of that.


ok so I've been looking at speakers. There is a 7 in that I want to use that is the same size (smaller than some) as 6 1/2's. How is that possible? Would that still be stock size considering the factory speaker has no defined "size"? it only has a cone and a plastic tube. No mounting flange.


----------



## chefhow

spl152db said:


> ok so I've been looking at speakers. There is a 7 in that I want to use that is the same size (smaller than some) as 6 1/2's. How is that possible? Would that still be stock size considering the factory speaker has no defined "size"? it only has a cone and a plastic tube. No mounting flange.


I would say if I was too look up your vehicle( I'm not sure what you drive) at a show to find out what the factory size is and it indicated a 5 1/4" or 6" driver from the factory and you put in a 7" driver that would move you up a class from Stock and possibly even out of Street depending upon what you did to make the 7" driver fit.


----------



## spl152db

chefhow said:


> I would say if I was too look up your vehicle( I'm not sure what you drive) at a show to find out what the factory size is and it indicated a 5 1/4" or 6" driver from the factory and you put in a 7" driver that would move you up a class from Stock and possibly even out of Street depending upon what you did to make the 7" driver fit.


I drive a 2008 Impala. The factory speaker has no mounting flange. The cone size would match or be less than. scosche and crutchfield say a 6.5. I didn't modify anything to fit the 7. I cut mdf rings to mount, that is all.


----------



## spl152db

I've submitted an email to the meca sql rules email address.


----------



## chefhow

spl152db said:


> I've submitted an email to the meca sql rules email address.


That is the BEST thing you can do.


----------

