# 125W on tap... 6.5's for more midbass punch?



## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Hey guys,

I'm looking for some options to improve the midbass punch in the chest feeling in my '04 Lancer.

My amp puts out ~125W at 4 ohms and ~250W at 2 ohms. Right now I have a pair of 10's in a sealed enclosure in the trunk, and Type S components up front and coax's in the back.

The stock speakers were technically 6 3/4" so it's a pain to find anything that's a drop in fit. I had to modify the mounting bracket that came with the speakers I use now to get them to fit, and they're still not mounted as well as I'd like them to be. I'd like to not have to drill a bunch of new holes, but it's looking like I'll pretty much have to.

All that being said, I'm considering two options.

1. Replace the rear fills with 6" subs or midbass woofers. While I like this option, I worry that it will vibrate the hell out of my rear deck (which is very difficult to deaden, though if I can get a really solid mount, maybe not an issue?) and pull the bass back to the rear of the car. Also, they'd have to be ok in an IB setup, as there's way too much stuff to work around under the rear deck to build a proper enclosure.

2. Replace the components up front. I'm sure this is the more expensive option, as replacing the woofer would necessitate replacing the tweeter as well. The Type S components with their in-line crossovers were great when I was first getting into car audio from a simplicity of install standpoint, but now I'm sure there's no other speakers with both inputs and outputs. I also don't have a whole lot of depth to work with. I know 2 7/16" will work, but beyond that I'd have to rip the doors apart to see. I don't know if I can get the kind of midbass punch that I want from what needs to be a fairly shallow speaker.

So please let me know which of these options you'd choose, and if possible recommend what drivers you'd use. I only know of a few 6" subs, and it seems many of the good midbass drivers are bigger than 6.5". I also know there are a gazillion 6.5" component speakers out there.

If I replace the rears, they only have to be good at producing midbass. If I replace the front components, they need to be able to hit the midbass and still be able reach up to the tweeters.

What do you think?


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

I think there are a few things you can try before buying new gear. I've never heard those comps but here are my suggestions.

1. How are your mids mounted? You said they had to be modified slightly...are they mounted to a solid baffle? 

2. Do you have any deadening in your doors? Sealing off all of the holes in the door will help with the midbass. This goes hand-in-hand with having your mids mounted to a solid baffle.

3. After properly mounting the mids, deadening the doors and sealing off everything hole you can, try raising the LP on your sub. What is your sub currently set at? Raise your low pass up to around 100hz and let the sub take care of some of that impact.

Hope this helps.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

gijoe said:


> I think there are a few things you can try before buying new gear. I've never heard those comps but here are my suggestions.
> 
> 1. How are your mids mounted? You said they had to be modified slightly...are they mounted to a solid baffle?
> 
> ...


x2, good fundamental suggestions.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Mids are mounted in the factory location in the front doors using the supplied plastic adapter ring. I don't believe that they're mounted as solid as they could be if I could have screwed them in directly using the factory holes. From reading on here though, it sounds like most people end up making some kind of MDF mounting baffle. There isn't a whole lot of room between the speakers and the grills, so I don't know how thick I'd be able to make one.

I have quite a bit of Damplifier in the doors, but they are not sealed airtight. 

I did raise the LPF on the subs and set the HPF on the mids to just above the point where they distort on low notes. The listed frequency response for the Type S mids starts at 70Hz, but they actually play a lot lot lower. Just not a whole lot of punch.


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## Robb (Dec 5, 2008)

Make sure theres no air seeping between the MDF baffle and around the speaker itself.
Try an amp with a lil more powe maybe ?


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Right now all I have is the supplied mounting ring sealed by Damplifier (which I do think is a pretty good seal). I guess I really need to make a stronger stiffer mount?

Also, the speakers are rated at 80W RMS and my amp can put out around 125W RMS (it's an MB Quart) so I'm sure power isn't an issue. Needless to say, I have the gains set at a fairly conservative level.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

I don't think power is the problem, 125 watts should be plenty to get good output from just about any 6.5". I think you need a stiffer, more secure baffle to start with, then seal up all of the holes. 

You said you raised the LP filter on your sub, but you didn't say what you raised it to. I encourage you to try 100hz, the only localization that you'll get is from vibrations in the back, you won't have to worry about localization from the sub at 100hz. Bring your sub up to 100hz and bring your mids up to match, even if they can play lower. Try it, I can't promise you'll like it but be neutral and don't assume that 100hz is going to draw your stage back.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I don't know the exact frequency that my crossovers are set at since the amps only have 2 labels. Attached are some pictures to show.










Mono amp










4 channel


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I will continue to play with crossovers and stuff, as well as getting the doors sealed. However I still don't think my speakers are going to be able to produce the kind of punch I want. 

So my question still stands: new components up front or new midbass or sub in the rear deck? What about switching to a ported sub enclosure?


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

I highly doubt the Type-S mids are capable of 70Hz or anything lower with any appreciable amount of output without distortion. I'm pretty familiar with the Type-s and Type-R products over the last several generations of the product. From your comments, I can only assume you listen to your audio quite quietly. Otherwise, you'd reach the limits rather quickly playing so low with any significant amount of output. It's just the design and physics. You might want to try listening to some frequency response tests to see where the output rolls off and peaks. Do the same with your sub separately to understand how it behaves too. One thing you want to do is find the limits of the hardware you're running.

I will say immediately, there is significantly better hardware out there. You have a good idea of using midbass woofers in the rear to aid midbass. It's actually a good, functional solution. However, you have to decide if it's overkill with the subs.


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## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

When I began to get serious about this stuff I realized the Alpine Type R front components I was using weren't going to cut it.

I stepped up to the 6.5" Type X. They were very decent and even better after I used active crossovers.

Before you start to just throw money at your system you should work on the install. Follow the examples in this forum and dampen your doors sufficiently. For best performance mount the drivers to the door, not the door panel.  
As you make these changes to your install you will be training your ears to perceive changes in the response. When you do upgrade to better drivers the results will be even sweeter to your ears.

Good luck and have fun!


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I listen to music turned about 2/3 the way up. I know with gain settings and everything, that number isn't a real good indicator, but I wouldn't call it "quietly."

I was actually surprised with the frequency response of the Type S components. I don't know exactly how a company decides what the response range of a speaker is. But I know the Type S's have a built in bass blocker, which I had assumed (especially with crossovers set on the amp too) would cut the low end. But playing test tones revealed that these speakers easily reproduce 70Hz and quite a bit lower too. Not real high output for sure, but I wasn't exactly cranking it either. When I got the amp installed, I played some bass heavy music to test as well and found that past a certain volume, they'd distort and reach xmax, so I adjusted the crossovers to fix this. With the crossover set the way it is in the picture, they still respond to much lower frequencies, but not enough to distort or bottom out.

That being said, I know there's much better hardware out there, which is why I'm posting here. I'm not confident that after I improve the install, the speakers will produce what I want.

So I'm trying to decide if I want to eventually replace rear fills which apparently nobody uses anyway with some dedicated midbass speakers since there is no depth limit in the rear, and just use the components up front as mids/highs only and set the crossovers accordingly, or try to find a component set for up front that is shallow enough to fit yet still provides the kick that I want from them.

Several people think I should move to a ported sub enclosure too. This is an option I'd consider as well, as long as it's capable of making a positive difference. I don't want more overall output. I just want high transient response - a powerful punch that I can feel in my chest when a kick drum hits.


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## 2fast4thelaw (Jul 5, 2009)

First off here are some things NOT to do:

Do not raise the crossover setting on your sub any higher than 80Hz

Do not port your enclosure unless you want deeper bass, a ported box will not give you more punch unless you tune it high and it will sound bad! Midbass out of your sub in the trunk will sound horrible! 

Do not put midbass drivers in your rear deck, it will throw off your sound stage unless you have a 2 seater.

Things I recommend:

Ditch the Alpine front speakers! They are NOT going to do what you want them to do.

I recommend getting a 3-way component set. A 3-way set will allow you to mount your mids and tweets up higher and they usually come with a DEDICATED Midbass driver with more X-max than a typical 2-way 6.5" driver.

A 3-way set will also play louder and cleaner with detail and definition that you want.

I highly recommend you look at the 3-way sets Focal makes. I am using the Polyglass series and they are AWESOME! I upgraded to this set in my Nissan Armada mainly to raise the sound stage. I was using a $500 set of MB Quart 6X9 Component (Not a low end set by any means) and they just didnt deliver what I wanted. The Focals are twice as loud, twice as clean and detailed, and deliver 3 times more bass and I am only running 75WRMS per side to them.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

My car is a 5 seater Mitsubishi Lancer, and I was afraid that midbasses in the back would mess up the soundstage.

I'm also content keeping a sealed enclosure, as I'm not interested in the 'benefit' of more output of a ported box. Just want super quick, super accurate, hard punch.

As far as a 3 way setup goes, this does interest me. However, I'm still a college kid, driving what is technically my dad's car, and he's not real interested in me doing anything that's a permanent change to the car, i.e. cutting holes somewhere for a midrange.

What are some good options as far as installing a 3 way component set? Currently, my mids are in the stock 6 3/4 location in the bottom front of the doors, with the tweeters in the stock location toward the bottom of the A-pillars. I have no idea where I'd mount a 3" midrange.


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

2fast4thelaw said:


> I recommend getting a 3-way component set. A 3-way set will allow you to mount your mids and tweets up higher and they usually come with a DEDICATED Midbass driver with more X-max than a typical 2-way 6.5" driver.


Is this really true?




2fast4thelaw said:


> I highly recommend you look at the 3-way sets Focal makes. I am using the Polyglass series and they are AWESOME!


What are the Xmax specs for those 3-way Focal sets?

Last time I looked into Focals, their midbass speakers were characterized by high Fs, high Qts, but lowish Xmax - certainly nothing in the range of something like say the CSS SDX7, with its 11mm Xmax. Perhaps things have changed since then.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Brian Steele said:


> Is this really true?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good point. It always seemed to me that the 6.5 in a 3 way setup wasn't necessarily a dedicated midbass, but I guess for some it is. And from my understanding, high xmax is one of the most important features of a dedicated midbass.


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## jimmys91 (Nov 28, 2009)

The reason no one uses rear fill is it pulls away from the front stage, adding a midbass to the rear will pull away from the front stage also. If you dont care about where the sound is comming from this will work. Put a beefy 6.5 in the rear spot and put a good set of good mids in your front holes and keep your type S tweets. 

If this isn't what you want this is what i would do if this was my car. By a Very good 6.5 and tweet combo. This is where you need to put all the money in the system IMO as its where 90% of the sound comes from. Let me know your budget and i can make some more detailed recomendations.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Yeah, 90% of the time I have the fade set way to the front so the soundstage is up front, but when I have backseat passengers I'll set it back to normal.

That being said, I don't carry backseat passengers enough for this to really matter, which is why I was considering replacing them with a dedicated midbass. But like you said, with the gain set to a level where I'd get a lot of output, it would pull the soundstage back.

As far as replacing the components up front, I'd say $250 (eBay or classifieds pricing, not retail) would be a decent budget. Hopefully when I get back to college I'd be able to sell the type S comps. 

My main concern about this is the mounting depth I have to work with in the doors. 2 7/16 will work (based on crutchfield outfit my car) and I think that's about it. 

Thanks for any recommendations.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Alright so yesterday I beefed up the mounting for my 6.5" mids and completely sealed all the holes in my doors. I definitely notice a difference, actually more than I was expecting. Bass output is noticably better, but it's still not as punchy as I want.

At this point I guess I should be looking at new drivers? There are dozens of 6.5 component sets out there. I don't even know where to start.

Basically I'm looking for a component set with strong, punchy midbass and smooth tweeters that aren't real harsh.

Also, just to clarify for a final time, is this punch that I'm looking for, the kind you feel in your chest at a concert when a kick drum hits, midbass or subbass? What frequency range are we talking about here? When I originally asked about getting more punch from my system a long time ago, I assumed this came from the subs and was expecting everyone to say try a ported enclosure or use more power or use this sub or something. Instead, everyone said amp the mids and deaden/seal the doors. I have since done that, and like I said, I do notice a difference, but not as much as I want. I still can't quite get it out of my head that maybe I should also be looking for new subs at some point.

Thanks for your help and recommendations.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Things I would try:

a. get your hands on some sort of an equalizer and start cutting things, leaving 60-120hz zone as is. See if that works. 
b. definitely play round with level matching of your subs to your front stage. 
c. play around with crossovers for both
d. disconnect one sub and see if you can make integration of that single subwoofer better.
e. see if there are any members in your area who can tune things up for you and maybe let you audition their systems or even borrow their subwoofer(s) to see what's what.

Don't run and buy stuff, make the best out of what you have.

Best of luck!


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

Wow there is lots of misinformation floating around here about rear fill. I'm not the expert but do some searches and stop confusing everyone with your rear fill sucks theory guys, kinda starting to see why the experts leave forums. For reference one of the MOST, wait a second what the hell, this car won sound quality 12 HUNDRED times with HUGEEEEEEEEE rear midbass, now for my final rant, got time delay? Fabrication skills and lots of trial and error time to burn? Get busy on the research first though. 

Ps: now that your baffles are secured more and you admittedly said it had more punch and extension, RAISE your subwoofer x over as mentioned earlier to compliment it without "pulling" back ur stage. I hope anything I just said helps and I didn't just piss anyone off but that's what I see as the real "truth".


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I posted another thread asking for system demo's and got very few responses. I certainly belive that I can make it sound a little better by tuning, eq, playing with crossovers and such. However, I don't belive that merely changing some settings will suddenly give me punch in the chest midbass. I guess there comes a point when you can only do so much with components you bought for $65 on ebay.

When I have a car that is truly my own and can make modifications to add huge midbass speakers, believe me I will. For now, I just need the best I can get out of a 6.5.


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

strakele said:


> I certainly belive that I can make it sound a little better by tuning, eq, playing with crossovers and such. I guess there comes a point when you can only do so much with components you bought for $65 on ebay.
> 
> For now, I just need the best I can get out of a 6.5.


Your getting it already man, ask these guys around here for help and they give it to you before suggesting what you want first. The experienced people here are telling you to not spend any money and work with what you have first and second. Think about that deeply! Peace


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Please make the best out of what you have first. You may be surprised to find that tuning and installation techniques can help a lot. Once you have gotten your speakers to sound as good as you can, and if they still don't cut it, then look into different speakers. If you swap out your equipment now your new speakers will still suffer. Sure they may have more midbass, but they won't reach their potential either. 

I don't want to single anyone out, but stay away from 2fast's advice. Raise your sub's LPF, work on some more solid baffles and see what you come up with. My subs are currently low passed at 125hz, I'm still playing with them but the only localization is from buzzes in my rear door panels.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

it is not what you have, it is how you use it.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Mless5 said:


> it is not what you have, it is how you use it.


Then why doesn't everyone buy $30 speakers?  

Plenty of people on here are using Focal, Dynaudio, Morel etc. components that can get pretty darn expensive.

I understand and appreciate what you guys are saying, so I hope I'm not coming off as thick headed or something. I always saw tuning and such as the final 10 or 15% of making a system go from great to awesome, with the other 85 to 90% being the actual hardware and quality of the installation. I just have a hard time believing that tweaking some crossover points will suddenly give me this punch I'm looking for. I do believe that it will make a difference, just not as much as I want.

I went out and did some more adjustments with the crossovers and some work with the EQ and got it even better. I just don't see it getting to the level I want.


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

thats the point, since you asked a question which seemed a little noobish, everyone wanted you to familiarize yourself with what you have first so that when we do give you the real upgrade advice, you know more on how to set it up, say we told you go get those $900 focals, you put them in and wham, they sound just like your type s alpines that we helped you to tweak to their limit, I WOULD BE PISSED AND FEEL STUPID. Now don't follow what most people use, they do it because they are graded by machines and judges who are VERY particular with what they want to hear, they listen to tracks hundreds of times so details that the cheapies don't have the 1000 ones will. Are you gonna compete? Our ears are forgiving up to a point, Go around to local shops and see if any of the owners have real sound quality setups for competition in their cars, Listen to those and you will see what I mean. And there are guys here who make 50 dollar speakers sound like 600 dollar ones, theres a thread somewhere, search for it, They are just intimately familiar with their cars and do craftey things, I'm working on that in mines personally


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

strakele said:


> Then why doesn't everyone buy $30 speakers?
> 
> Plenty of people on here are using Focal, Dynaudio, Morel etc. components that can get pretty darn expensive.
> 
> ...


From your statement regarding using plastic adapters, I'm going to guess that your installation is a big part of the problem. Tuning may only be a small percentage of the process, but unless you get the installation right and learn some tricks to tuning you will be swapping out equipment and you'll never be satisfied. 

I'm not saying that the equipment you have will satisfy you, even if you dial in your installation and tuning, I'm just saying that you will likely run into the same problem regardless of what equipment you put in unless you learn how to take care of these problems. I'd hate to see you drop hundreds of dollars on equipment when realistically less expensive gear will get you where you want to be.


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

And if you really want to make things simpler, get a pair of 12"s, pull out your rear speakers and open up the ski pass/cup holder when you want punch. Case closed!


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I know my installation wasn't the greatest, so going off the advice from people in this thread, I completely sealed my doors, added even more Damplifier, and secured my speakers with much better baffles than the plastic adapter rings ever could. There really isn't much more I can do at this point. Most people's first recommendations are to deaden and seal the doors, and add solid speaker baffles. I have now done all of this. It certainly did make an improvement and made a believer out of me. I just don't know what else I could possibly do to improve the install that doesn't involve radical, permanent changes to the car.

That's why I was asking about different drivers. I have taken all the advice in this thread, including fixing the install and trying different crossover points and EQ settings. Sorry if I didn't make it clear that I AM doing what you guys have suggested and it IS working. I just want more 

I have been considering switching to a pair of IDQ 12's, a single IDMAX12, or an SSA Icon 12 sometime down the road. The Type R's that I have right now sound pretty good, but they aren't exactly SQ speakers. Looking for something with great transient response that can really keep up with double bass.


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## AboveAK (Mar 3, 2009)

By the pic of your 4 ch. amp. Your Highpass looks like it's set at 400-500 hz. That's what's taking away from a lot of your midbass. I would have thought someone would have noticed that right off the bat.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Yeah, I don't exactly understand it. With the HPF set like that, the speakers still play test tones in the 40Hz range and songs with low bass lines. If I turn the HPF down much more, the speakers will bottom out when playing low notes, so that's why I have it adjusted that way so they don't reach xmax at listening volume levels.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

A HPF isn't a brick wall, a speaker will still play frequencies below the crossover point. Set your HP somewhere around 80-120hz and see what that does. I can't see the picture here at work, but if your HP is indeed set that high, you're problem would make a lot of sense.


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## AboveAK (Mar 3, 2009)

strakele said:


> Yeah, I don't exactly understand it. With the HPF set like that, the speakers still play test tones in the 40Hz range and songs with low bass lines. If I turn the HPF down much more, the speakers will bottom out when playing low notes, so that's why I have it adjusted that way so they don't reach xmax at listening volume levels.


That amp doesn't have adjustable slope so it's difficult running the HPF lower but still you shouldn't be bottoming out with it set lower than what you have it at now. Is it possible you have the gains up a little too high? Do you have crossover capability on your headunit?


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## AboveAK (Mar 3, 2009)

do you have the bass boost all the way down?


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

Loudness button also, 2 10's to 1 12" ur not gonna be real excited about that, SQ systems don't go beyond 120 db's very often, you would need MAJOR firepower and skill to do that, so what are you willing to give up to do that?

Up front presence which equates to Sound quality in a sense, modification of car to add more midbass in doors, or *bigger subs directly relating to number 1*, or lots of time and research trying to hide midbass big enough to move major air for the levels you want? 

We are still here to help though, I got midbass issues myself because I just added 2 more up front and I am trying to use as little processing as possible yet have a competition worthy install if I were to get that into that scene,(probably not) so my midbass findings, I can pass to you. I know lots of getting loud tricks for pro audio but soundstaging and getting really loud and balanced in a car is a devil of devils, I'm learning that really fast, lol


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I figured with a 24dB slope, it would have more effect than it does. I haven't adjusted the crossover lower since imroving my install though, so I'll try that later tonight.

Gains on the amp are set fairly conservative, since the speakers are 80W RMS, and the amp can do 125w RMS. I can set a crossover on my headunit to 80, 120, and 160Hz. These almost completely cut frequencies below the setting, so I don't use them.

I have bass boost set at about 1 or 2 out of 9. Most places I read recommend against bass boost, but I'll turn it up a little when I go out to play with the HPF.

My 2 Type R 10's on ~1200W do about 124dB on music according to a Radio Shack dB meter set on C weighting. I could easily bump that up with a ported enclosure, but from what I've read, that will increase my overall output, but not the actual punch. Seems in order to increase this punch in the chest feeling with a ported box, you're supposed to tune it really high like 50Hz, which sucks for SQ, right?

My amp can do well over 2000W at 1 ohm and less, so I could add 2 large 12's at some point, but that would require substantial electrical upgrades to my car that I'm not real interested in doing.

To me, there's a difference between subs being 'loud' and subs having 'punch.' Maybe they're both just a function of SPL and the type of music or whatever. I don't care at all if you can hear my car coming or set off car alarms, which to me, is just being loud. I just want it to reproduce kick drum/tom hits with supreme accuracy.


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

I wasn't talking about sub dbs, how loud does ur midbass get,midrange,tweeters all seperately.

My sub does oer 140+ under 40hz and something scary in the 70 hz range and is still "tight". And I don't use any bass boost or bass EQ. I have NO trunk space whatsoever though. its getting my midbass and mid/high spl's up there and stay up front is where my journey started in september, still can't get it just rite but I'm making it harder than it needs to be with me limiting the processing until I feel I can't physically get it any better. I'm getting closer though


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## AboveAK (Mar 3, 2009)

strakele said:


> I figured with a 24dB slope, it would have more effect than it does. I haven't adjusted the crossover lower since imroving my install though, so I'll try that later tonight.
> 
> Gains on the amp are set fairly conservative, since the speakers are 80W RMS, and the amp can do 125w RMS. I can set a crossover on my headunit to 80, 120, and 160Hz. These almost completely cut frequencies below the setting, so I don't use them.
> 
> ...



1. Set your HPF on your head unit to your front stage to 80 hz. This will keep your mids from bottoming out.

2. Turn the bass boost or "Bass EQ" all the way down. This bass boost is a db increase to 45 hz you don't want that.

3. A port tuned to 50 hz is something you definately won't want. Do not make that mistake. I remember talking to you about this before. 32-36 hz is what your looking for. I recall you listened to a lot of rock as do I so take this into consideration. I also had the type r's if you remember.

4. The frequencies that you want more of are between 80-250 hz. That is all front stage. The best thing to do is to get your front stage to play it's best. If you still don't like it then it's time to get new drivers, as was said earlier.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

AboveAK said:


> 1. Set your HPF on your head unit to your front stage to 80 hz. This will keep your mids from bottoming out.
> 
> 2. Turn the bass boost or "Bass EQ" all the way down. This bass boost is a db increase to 45 hz you don't want that.
> 
> ...


To go along with this, it's much easier to make crossover adjustment from your head unit. It sounds like you are using both the hu and the amp. Set the amp to full range and adjust your crossovers on your head unit. Set your mids HPF to around 80hz and go from there. Turn your subs off while doing this, listen to see how low your mids can cleanly play at the desired volume. If your HPF on your amp is really set in the 400-500hz range, that's your problem, or at least one of many problems.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Yeah I guess I'll test the speakers and tweets at some point too. My system seems damn loud... 140 dB at 40Hz must be pretty impressive. 

Anyway, so I went out and turned the HPF on the amp all the way down and just listened to it like that with no subs after having sealed my doors. It was fairly impressive the amount of bass they were putting out. However, as expected, I could tell they were close to reaching their max excursion, and at high volumes, the rest of the music became distorted because of this.

So I set the HPF on the HU to 80Hz. It definitely eliminated the low bass, but made the speakers better at reproducing music above that frequency. I can really feel the sharpness of a snare drum hit now. I wish my HU had more options for HPF settings though. I'd like to have it set at more like 70Hz. It's too hard to guage by the little dial on the amp where it's actually set. 90% of my kick drum punch is still coming from the subs though.

I also turned bass boost on the 4 channel and mono amp all the way down, and turned down the gain on the subs a bit. With the right tuning, I can really make certain songs sound awesome. I wonder if some day there will be a way to save your tuning/EQ settings for each song...

I know a 50Hz tuned sub enclosure would sound terrible, and I'm certainly not considering it. I just don't know if switching to a ported enclosure would help my situation any. I was pretty set on going ported before, but after reading some descriptions from other users who went from sealed to ported which included "louder," "more output," and "less punchy," it has made me rethink this decision.

I really appreciate all the comments and suggestions guys.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Alright, so we've made a lot of progress. Now here's my suggestion. If you can easily turn off your subs and tweeters do so. Now listen to music with just your mids playing, set your volume to the max you would normally listen to that particular song (pick a song with a lot of midbass and find the max volume before turning off the subs and tweets) now move your HPF up and down until you don't have any nasty distortion. If your mids only play to 125hz at that volume before they sound nasty don't panic. Set your mids so that they play as loud as you like without sacrificing too much clarity. This is your new HP. 

Now, turn your subs on and raise the LP until you get a nice blend with your mids. This could end up being an overlap an underlap or they could be set at the same frequency.

This is the part that goes back to my suggestion earlier. As long as you have your subs and mids blended well you should be able to get your sub up to 125hz without localization. You will benefit from the subs displacement but your mids (and even your tweeters) will play enough of the high frequencies to keep the sound in front. The subs will move the most air giving you the output you want and the front stage will play the localizing cues, this will give you strong impact that still sounds like it's in front of you.

Try to stick with either the crossovers on your HU or the crossovers on your amp until you have a good enough understanding to cascade them properly. If you have enough adjustability on your HU use that and set your amps to full range.

Good luck and let us know how the rest goes. In the end you may still want new drivers, but don't give up just yet.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I can easily turn off the subs, but not the tweeters. Tomorrow I'll try messing with the crossovers some more, but with the HPF at 80Hz, I don't really get distortion from the mids until they're louder than I would ever listen to them. Judging by the dial on the mono amp, LPF for the subs is well over 100Hz, probably closer to 150, so I'm going to experiment with turning that down a bit as well. I'll also try to figure out some intermediate points along the crossover adjustments on my amps using test tones.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

strakele said:


> I can easily turn off the subs, but not the tweeters. Tomorrow I'll try messing with the crossovers some more, but with the HPF at 80Hz, I don't really get distortion from the mids until they're louder than I would ever listen to them. I'll also try to figure out some intermediate points along the crossover adjustments on my amp using test tones.


Cool, play with it and let me know. Even if your mids can play down to 80hz without breaking up consider that your subs can do it a lot easier. They can put out a lot more volume at 80hz than your mids can. This will reduce the excursion on your mids and reduce distortion. 

My ID mids can play down to 63hz with most of my music and good volume, but I still cross them at 125hz


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Interesting. What made you choose that as a cross point if they can play lower cleanly? Also, is there any reason NOT to cross mids at say 70Hz and subs at 125Hz? Or is it always best to have them both close to or at the same frequency?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Try to play with the phase of your subwoofer too... Might have cancellation going on 
(invert + and - on the subwoofer amp) listen to your midbass ; is it better? Worst? Revert back and listen 

Kelvin 

PS: keep your subs sealed for the sound you're looking for


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

Your making heaps of progress after 2 days, like subwoofery said, flip the switch on your sub and that could be the final touch to get that sub to disappear. Regarding frequency, you can have them varying in overlap or underlap as much as you want in, this is what happens,

If they are set the same there is a hump or gain when they combine,

If they overlap there is still a hump then it sort of level offs up to where the frequency is set then it declines,

If they underlap perfectly they combine to be flat, this is the most preferred for getting good rta readings. It may sound a bit funny to ears but the machine prefers it this way, and things like resonance and cabin gain has to be addressed.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I've only done a little listening so far today, and I can't decide yet if switching phase on the subs has helped. It hasn't hurt, I know that, but I need to listen some more.

I'm about to go out and do some work on the rear speaker mounts, as well as play with the sub crossover. I'm just going for good sound to me, I could care less what a machine thinks about how my car sounds.


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

Try to do this at low to mid listening volume and take breaks in between times when your listening, after a while it all starts to distort your thinking and everything sounds the same! Might sound crazy, but very true.


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## x97chevy (Dec 18, 2009)

This might be completly wrong but for me if you want a little more punch feel I would change those subs to Image Dynamics. I have personally had Kicker JL Audio MMats Alpine Rockford and plenty of others and I can say that if you like the punchy bass IDQ is the way to go. Just my 2 cents. Good luck!!


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I certainly do like punchy bass and want a sub that can keep up with double bass. Right now my subs make Metallica's double bass sound kind of muddy like they can't respond quite fast enough. Down the road I'm highly considering switching to a pair of IDQ12v3's is a sealed box. Also open to others with extremely fast response. I know it's not just the recording...I heard one system a while ago that just had a 6" sub under each seat and those suckers sure were quick playing the exact same music as I play in my car. 

Anyway, on some songs, my speakers sound a bit cleaner when the HPF is set to 120Hz than at 80Hz, but for most 80Hz is fine and I don't really want to have to set them higher than that.

I also finally ripped apart my trunk again to find some rattles that had really been pissing me off. Sure sounds good now.

The sound of a kick drum is mostly up front now (kinda depends on the recording), but the punch feeling still comes from the back. I guess that's about as good as I can get it, considering the subs ARE in the back..

Anyway, thanks for all the help and pointers guys. I'll sit with this for a while 'till I decide I need new speakers or subs or whatever


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## XllentAudio (Jun 29, 2009)

I'm not going to read all that...

You said your gains are set pretty "conservative" try upping the gain a bit more. Good secure MDF baffles with sealed rings with butyl wrapped around it works good for me too.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

90 perecent of the bass you want is from your front speakers. I'm still subless and running my mids at 70hz 30db/octave and everyone that listens to any type of rock in my car goes "holy ****" every time they hear a drum hit the first time. If you want good drum and guitar sounds you need better front speakers, no ifs' ands or buts about it. Continously tweaking the sub might make things a bit better in the shortterm, longterm it won't cut it.


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## AboveAK (Mar 3, 2009)

T3mpest said:


> 90 perecent of the bass you want is from your front speakers. I'm still subless and running my mids at 70hz 30db/octave and everyone that listens to any type of rock in my car goes "holy ****" every time they hear a drum hit the first time. If you want good drum and guitar sounds you need better front speakers, no ifs' ands or buts about it. Continously tweaking the sub might make things a bit better in the shortterm, longterm it won't cut it.


He's/she's really right with that one. Just my mids can vibrate my mirrors on my truck with the kick drum. That's with my sub off. That gives you a visual on what good mids can do, and i only paid $100 for the pair. It feels like the drums are set up right in my truck.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Wow, what mids are you guys using? Mine can vibrate the mirrors a bit, but yours sound very impressive.


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## AboveAK (Mar 3, 2009)

strakele said:


> Wow, what mids are you guys using? Mine can vibrate the mirrors a bit, but yours sound very impressive.


There will be a lot of mid's that are capable of that. My doors aren't deadened so keep that in mind. More vibrations will take place because of this but i have SB Acoustics sb17nrx's in a sealed enclosure i just changed to .14 cu. ft. I'm running them active as well. I paired them with the SB Acoustics sb29rdc tweet and i love the combo.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I mean especially now that I have sealed the doors the speakers can definitely vibrate the mirrors and such, but it doesn't feel like the drums are in my car or anything. They sound good, but you don't really feel it.


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## AboveAK (Mar 3, 2009)

strakele said:


> I mean especially now that I have sealed the doors the speakers can definitely vibrate the mirrors and such, but it doesn't feel like the drums are in my car or anything. They sound good, but you don't really feel it.


i've used the Type R and X comps and i wasn't really happy with the midbass in those either. Both are good comps. Loved the tweets but the mid just didn't have enough low end for me, so i wouldn't expect there would be a whole lot in the Type S either.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

You're right. Do you have any recommendations for comps I should look at? 

T3mpest what mids do you use?


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

I'm using a set of Image dynamics xs69's in my kicks mated to a pair of cd-2 neo horns. Very good midbass with these. They won't play below 70hz very well, but what they do play they do very well. I can get the opening to "hit the lights" to be darn near reference level as in very close to an actual drum on my dash. Better recorded stuff like the opening to "move along", "cry tough" or the focal tracks are really impressive. They send vibrations all the way into my leather seat, you can feel them resonate with higher frequency midbass energy. It's sorta like being at a conert, but not quite that much impact, still very impressive for what they are. My next mids will be silly overkill for a vehicle and I hope they can give me exaclty what I want. That being said, the XS69's are no joke, best mids I've used so far. I've got 300 watts/channel on them, which is a bit overkill. 125 is enough for most people and they really dont' like anywhere near a full 300 tbh.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Out of curiosity, what are the next set of mids you have planned?

I've been looking at the ID CTX65CS comps. From what I've read, they're hard to beat for a sub $200 set. Any others I should look at? I know there's also a PPI (I think) set that a lot of people like.


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## RMF419 (Feb 13, 2008)

These are really hard to beat Parts-Express.comyramid W64 6-1/2" Pro Plus Midbass Woofer | Pyramid W64 6-1/2" midrange midbass 4 ohm very good speaker from 70 to 600. I would have never purchased these Peerless 830946 SLS 6.5" Woofer - 4 ohm from Madisound if I did not punch a hole in one, at a time when I had a little extra cash. These are better, I do not think I have enough amp for them. Sound better then the Pyramid but not as much punch in the chest. On top of an itty install.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

strakele said:


> Out of curiosity, what are the next set of mids you have planned?
> 
> I've been looking at the ID CTX65CS comps. From what I've read, they're hard to beat for a sub $200 set. Any others I should look at? I know there's also a PPI (I think) set that a lot of people like.



If I can get them in a 2ohm configuration I'll be using a set of acoustic elegance td10m's with about 550 watts/channel. They can handle 1000 watts continously with the apollo upgrade on them, so they should give me at least a 6db gain, probably closer to 10 as I know the ID's dont' even take 300 without some major thermal issues. (continously that is). Yeah I'll have no footroom and the kicks will be HUGE, but I think I can live with it, I'm 5'5, lol. Anyway no 6.5inch speaker will ever play super low with authority, so to maximize the midbass frequencies a 6.5 can do well, you want something effecient. The ID's are nice because IIRC, the come in 2ohm configs so you can get max power from your amp. Anyway to get loud punch midbass just look for effecient speakers.

(male btw since someone asked lol)


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Wow, those woofers are pretty inexpensive. I guess a lot of the money for a component set goes into the crossover and tweeter, huh?

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how I look at it) the way the Type S components are designed, to replace the woofer, I'll have to replace the tweeter as well. I've been getting pretty excited about Image Dynamics stuff the more I read about it, and those CTX65CS components seem like they're a pretty great deal. Nothing else from ID is even close to the $200 range (should I look for used?) so I figured those were my one option if I went with ID stuff. And they're 4 ohm only as far as I can tell. Specs say 100W RMS and my amp does 250W RMS at 2 ohms, so I figured the 125W it can put out at 4 ohms would be great for these speakers.

Do you guys have any other recommendations for complete component systems in the $200 range? The Morel Tempo 6 also looks good. I know there's good stuff from DLS, Precision Power, and CDT as well.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Also, I know I said earlier that it can't be deeper than 2 7/16, but I wasn't taking a baffle into account, so let's say they shouldn't be much deeper than 3 inches.

I've found the ID CTX65Cs, Morel Tempo 6, DLS R6A, and CDT EF-61FG/TW25 Pro. 

Any opinions on these? Thinking I should start a poll.


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## k-ink (Dec 20, 2009)

OP, I used CDT EuroSport 06 mid-bass, which have amazing kick and sound extremely accurate. If you want to go three way they make dedicated mini subs called EuroSport 06+ (just don't expect them to do mid range, they are subs)


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Gonna keep it 2 way at this time, but I'll check out those CDT's. Do you by any chance have a link to them? Woofersetc. has pages of CDT stuff with very similiar names/model numbers. Just want to make sure I'm looking at the right thing.


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## 2fast4thelaw (Jul 5, 2009)

I am going to say it again, I really dont feel you will be truely happy with anything less than than a good 3-way set. Remember when you heard your first set of 2=way components after upgrading from a set of coaxiols that you thought were good until now? That is what your experience will be like times 2 after you upgrade to 3-way 7X4Xtw splits. 

I saw a nice new set of Focal Polyglass 165K3s for under $500.00 on ebay. Those speakers will rape your ears! I have a set and they play extreamly loud with impressive bass presense. I have a set of the higher performance K2P 165s and they sound as detailed but not as balanced, or as loud and dynamic as the Polyglass 3-ways.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

My car originally came with separate components, so I can't say I've experienced exactly what you're talking about, but I think I know what you mean based on other stock systems that I've had the (dis)pleasure of hearing. 

I really don't know where I'd mount a midrange driver though, at least without permanent modifications to the interior, which I'm not particularly interested in doing. 

I think with a good set of 2 ways and some new subs, I'll be able to achieve what I want. It's just choosing the right ones that's driving me crazy right now.

Also, close to $500 seems a bit out of my budget at this point. By mid February, I'm hoping to have new components, new subs, and a new enclosure. That might have to be put on hold if I can't get my stupid mono amp working though.


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## 2fast4thelaw (Jul 5, 2009)

That is a definite drawback on the 3-ways. They take custom work to install which is why I didnt put them in my Z. I have the 2-way K2Ps in that car and I just bought an Audio Control EQX parametric equilizer to tame the midbass response from my sub and push it forward to the fronts and also too boost midrange up front to try to emulate the response of a 3-way set. there is a lot you can do with equilization.

I know the good stuff is really expensive so I buy a lot of used gear on sites like this and ebay.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Yeah, I'm not opposed to buying gently used stuff. I just want a woofer that can really pound out the drum hits, and a tweeter that isn't overly harsh.


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## Pillow (Nov 14, 2009)

Do you like the tweeters? If so maybe just change out the mids for something like the ID OEMs. Check the Classifieds for the thread.

This has been a great thread! Lots of good pointers anyone can chew on.


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## designerfh (Nov 4, 2007)

strakele said:


> I certainly do like punchy bass and want a sub that can keep up with double bass. Right now my subs make Metallica's double bass sound kind of muddy like they can't respond quite fast enough. Down the road I'm highly considering switching to a pair of IDQ12v3's is a sealed box. Also open to others with extremely fast response. I know it's not just the recording...I heard one system a while ago that just had a 6" sub under each seat and those suckers sure were quick playing the exact same music as I play in my car.


Just my newb 2 cents - I listen to a lot of crazy death metal, and the best investment I made to get that snappy double bass wasnt the speakers, but the amp. 

I have two Punch Stage 2 10's in a subthumb box. Nothing even remotely special - budget set up. I had an Alpine MRD-1000 pushing the subs at 2ohms, supposedly full 1000 watts. Fast kick drums were muddy as hell.

Changed the sub amp from the Alpine to a Zapco 9.0x, and it was like I had a brand new system. I'm even running it 4ohm stereo - not bridged or anything - went from 500w per speaker to 300w per speaker. Its louder, and i can hear the super fast double bass stuff that you hear in bands like Nile, Behemoth, etc. No crossover changes, blends perfect with the components up front. It just seems to control the subs 100x better. 

Your mileage may vary. :guitarist:


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

designerfh said:


> Just my newb 2 cents - I listen to a lot of crazy death metal, and the best investment I made to get that snappy double bass wasnt the speakers, but the amp.
> 
> I have two Punch Stage 2 10's in a subthumb box. Nothing even remotely special - budget set up. I had an Alpine MRD-1000 pushing the subs at 2ohms, supposedly full 1000 watts. Fast kick drums were muddy as hell.
> 
> ...


:laugh:


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I started with a crappy Kenwood 900W (supposedly) amp and then upgraded to a pretty beastly DB Drive PD2000.1. It gets louder, and did clean up the response a little bit, but nowhere near as drastic as you describe. I'm going to have to wait a while on changing out subs, since I just had to pay for my parking pass at school which costs about the same as a brand new IDMAX...

Pillow - the way the Type S components are designed, the tweet has to be used with the woofer. The system uses a small in-line crossover. The woofer has both inputs and outputs. Wires come from the amp to the woofer, then from the woofer to the crossover, then to the tweeter. There is a small bass blocker coil on the woofer, but they're essentially 'full range' as there is no 'real' LPF or HPF on them. Not the greatest design for awesome SQ and tuning ability, but hey, it sure made for an easy install when I was a total noob!

Anyway, I purchased a set of Boston Acoustics SPZ60's from the classifieds to replace the Alpines. I know these weren't even on my list before since they sell for well out of my price range, but they were a good deal so I had to do it. Their high power handling and xmax and lower impedance drew me in. They're also a little different as not everyone uses them, so I'll be sure to let you guys know how they work out.

So... I'm going to be switching from:
Alpine Type S components up front being fed 100 or so watts
Alpine Type S coax in back
Stock, in line crossover unit

to:
Boston SPZ60 components up front being fed 200 or so watts
no rear fill
Bi-wired from 4 channel amp so each driver has it's own channel

I think it will be a pretty substantial, impressive difference in sound quality, midbass kick, tuning ability, overall performance and so on. What do you think?


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## 2fast4thelaw (Jul 5, 2009)

I think your are definitly heading in the right direction. I would like to hear your comments on those Bostons. I was considering them for the same reasons.


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## kvndoom (Nov 13, 2009)

Pillow said:


> Do you like the tweeters? If so maybe just change out the mids for something like the ID OEMs. Check the Classifieds for the thread.
> 
> This has been a great thread! Lots of good pointers anyone can chew on.


Thanks for reminding me about those! I'm gonna see about buying a set from hess this weekend. Sometime this spring I will probably get a pair of Ebony's to try out as well. I'm happy with the SPX tweets, and they sound great off-axis in my sail panels. I just want to get the mids right.

After I worked on my doors this past weekend, I was really enjoying the extra bass up front, but the Alpine SPX woofers can't take any decent amount of bass energy under 100Hz. I've got them at 95Hz/24dB right now. I had them lower and they sounded great, but can't take a lot of power down low.

OP, good to see it paying off for you. This is one hobby that has great rewards for getting it right. I'm anxious to see how you like those Boston's too.


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