# JBL w12GTi .... first impressions.



## JAG (May 6, 2006)

Well HOLY MOSES !!! We may just have a winner here. I finished the 2.25 cu ft slot ported enclosure today... Mounted the sub in there , and started playing around with it. The first thing I noticed , was rather strange. Right out of the gate , 45 hz was relatively flat , and 75 hz was slightly boosted. 
This is strange , because being tuned to 30 hz , the sub should have had a slight boost at 45 , and a slight roll off at 80 ... I guess cabin gain is showing up here. 
I am AMAZED at how fast the sound of the sub is changing !!! Break in on a sub like this usually takes at least 8 hrs of playing time , but the sub is gaining some clarity , and is getting louder already. I can't wait too see just how far this goes.
It is already looking like this is probably going to be the best sounding ported sub I have yet heard , as it is NOT showing the usual issues with mid-range blending that most ported subs do. It is VERY , VERY early to tell , but so far the sound is closer to a sealed enclosure than I would have guessed possible. Is this due to the sub itself , or Audionutz' special tweaks he had me do ?? I'm not hearing the normal slight overhang I usually hear with ported subs , and THAT is definitely something different.
BEST of all , my customer just left the shop , and he liked it well enough to tell me to tune on this design , and hold off on building the sealed enclosure for the sub ... Keeping fingers crossed  
I'll be doing a FULL review on this sub after it fully breaks in , and I have a chance to do extensive tuning ..... Who would have thought a JBL could ???


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

im not supprised for 2 reasons.

1. if i dont like the way something sounds i change it, i have always run sealed boxes always seeking sq, i installed my first sq ported box in my van 8 days ago, its not comming out any time soon because it sounds amazing.

2. im not one to brown nose anyone anywhere ever for anything under any circumstances ever ever ever, no bandwagon no boner no cliks for me.

but i think audionuts knows a thing or 3 about audio? :blush:


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

AVI said:


> Who would have thought a JBL could ???


why wouldnt they? i dont understand the bad rap that jbl has with the mainstream consumers, maybe they dont push BS as much as other companies they just let their products do the ttalking. Harmon is huge and has incredible resources to put out outstanding products like the wgti line (my favorite subs actually).

anyways wgti's kick ass mang


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## legend94 (Mar 15, 2006)

maybe i should get the new school gti


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

kappa546 said:


> i dont understand the bad rap that jbl has with the mainstream consumers


Me neither.


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

in my eyes JBL got a bad rap, like most companies, getting involved with best buy/circuit city.....I personaly had a pair of 10" GT woofers in circuit city thunder bandpass boxes and it was amazing but at the same time I had a ****ty amplifier and this was my first bass, so I had nothing to compare it to. If I could find those woofers i would try them again. If I remeber correctly this was the same time frame when best buy was also selling Cerwin Vega, and look where they are now.


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## khail19 (Oct 27, 2006)

I have been impressed with everything JBL I have ever owned. Including speakers and amps that I bought at Circuit City and Best Buy, although they were a lot pricier back then when there was no internet shopping. My HT speakers (except the sub) are all JBL HLS series, and they sound great to me. The first amp I ever bought was a BP300.1, which is still running strong now, almost 10 years later.

It seems like all the big companies get a bad rap for some reason, but they have huge resources and R&D capabilities. Pioneer is another good example, sure they make some crappy stuff for the average consumer. But when they want, they can compete with any other company out there.


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## khail19 (Oct 27, 2006)

cajunner said:


> how's that for a first post?


Not nearly as good as this one.   

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=118767&postcount=1


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

cajunner said:


> a pair of the 15's, put some high sensitivity pro mids in place of the profi's and rebuild that dash around some TAD unity horns with a supertweet flange off the a-pillars and amp it all with milbert mono strapped highs and a custom digital path with features similar to the alto ucs pro but 115 s/n, use that new analog chip with optical everywhere.


 ^^ i jus came a lil :blush:


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

khail19 said:


> Not nearly as good as this one.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=118767&postcount=1


AND WE HAVE A WINNNER!


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

kappa546 said:


> why wouldnt they? i dont understand the bad rap that jbl has with the mainstream consumers, maybe they dont push BS as much as other companies they just let their products do the ttalking. Harmon is huge and has incredible resources to put out outstanding products like the wgti line (my favorite subs actually).
> 
> anyways wgti's kick ass mang


Here's why . but it is only MY PERSONAL opinion ...

For the most part , JBL sucks !!!!!!! I'm a retired musician , and their Pro gear always sucked balls. My EAD loudspeakers WALK ON WATER compared to literally anything JBL has ever made.

I once used JBL car amps in my own car .... I don't know what in hell they did wrong , but the sound was VERY , VERY cold and unforgiving. The perfect example of non-musical .....


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

cajunner said:


> yep, there's your winner!
> 
> 
> the only thing to do now is decide to go full on, get mr. baseball to buck up a pair of the 15's, put some high sensitivity pro mids in place of the profi's and rebuild that dash around some TAD unity horns with a supertweet flange off the a-pillars and amp it all with milbert mono strapped highs and a custom digital path with features similar to the alto ucs pro but 115 s/n, use that new analog chip with optical everywhere and high def sourced along with a customizable pod set-up that come in during 7.1 but recess from view for the 2 channel....
> ...



Naw .... Stepping down from the Profis would just RUIN his sound !!! LOL


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

The JBL hate is a little weird. I posted a question about subwoofers on a different forum and mentioned SQ. Some ******* said "I recommend you replace your JBL amps with something decent". WTF, I wasn't even talking about amps and besides, I'm very impressed with my JBL GTO amps....idiots!


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

89grand said:


> The JBL hate is a little weird. I posted a question about subwoofers on a different forum and mentioned SQ. Some ******* said "I recommend you replace your JBL amps with something decent". WTF, I wasn't even talking about amps and besides, I'm very impressed with my JBL GTO amps....idiots!


Well .... Before you just label me as another hater .... 
I have heard JBL equipment for the past 23 years as a professional musician.
I have a VERY good knowledge of their signature sound , and it is flawed brother.
Then again , Crown amplifiers tried to get me to use their amps , and I turned the sponsership down ..... Why ? Cause despite the name recognition , Crest 8001 amps smoked the living hell out of any Crown amp ...
Not a hater , just a realist ....


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

AVI said:


> Well .... Before you just label me as another hater ....
> I have heard JBL equipment for the past 23 years as a professional musician.
> I have a VERY good knowledge of their signature sound , and it is flawed brother.
> Then again , Crown amplifiers tried to get me to use their amps , and I turned the sponsership down ..... Why ? Cause despite the name recognition , Crest 8001 amps smoked the living hell out of any Crown amp ...
> Not a hater , just a realist ....


I wasn't talking about you. You gave your reasons for not liking them which is cool. It's the jerkoff 16 year olds with Boss amps that blurt out stuff on forums when they don't know what they're talking about.


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## yermolovd (Oct 10, 2005)

Hmm this is interesting. I'm about to buy one. It fits my PG Xenon 600.1 amp perfectly power wise and it looks like there's nothing wrong with it otherwise.  

Can't wait for more details!


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

if someone can post a link to a bad jbl product id like to see it.


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

lukeboa said:


> if someone can post a link to a bad jbl product id like to see it.


 Well you said BAD, so....


http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/08/jbls-big-bad-mt-everest-speaker-system/

a simple google would have gotten that for you.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

unpredictableacts said:


> Well you said BAD, so....
> 
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2006/09/08/jbls-big-bad-mt-everest-speaker-system/
> ...


It sucks so bad to be poor...


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## audionutz (Dec 22, 2005)

.... 
And audionutz said unto his disciples, "go forth, and findeth said high sensitivity woofage, and bear forth such that MDF may be made to house it. Thine is the way of the righteous bass tones. Take heed to these instructions, for great joy will come henceforth and thou shalt find everlasting sonic bliss. And so, it shall be done"


LOL, that was purty cool, wasnt it TskTskTsk!

Anyways, back to reality, get back to the topic mang! Damn talking about the pro audio stuff on this thread! Hows the f-n subwoofer sound!?!?!?




My $.02 on the JBL thing is this---
they have always made LOUD, CLEAN sounding pro gear, though not always tonally accurate. The Powervalve amps and the first-gen class D stuff they tried to do is what gave JBL the **** name they had to wear for a while. Those amps would burn virtually every coil they came into contact with. They were basically distorion boxes...the absolute worst distortion ratings i can recall seeing. When they hired Crown to come assist with re-vamping the amp line, things changed drastically for the better! Now we see great amps and an actual strive to build product based on what works and what doesnt.
Add into the mix reknown guys like Gary Biggs coming onboard and building world class cars with the stuff, and not only that but working with the design engineers and having a hand at R&D input, and you get product that can compete with almost anything out there.

Im the first to admit that I was skeptical joining Team JBL, but the products have not let me down at all, and have infact exceeded my own expectation, so I'm a happy camper.


But, tell us more about the sound sir! Does it seem like this sub has any problem whatsoever playing the "low stuff and up to 80Hz cleanly" like the hot topic of the other thread? Have you squashed any misconceptions you had regarding ported enclosures yet?
Inquiring minds wanna know....and the DIY world is watching


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

congrats on finding your winner. i know for a fact jbl amps are bulletproof. you never hear anything about one of the old lego shaped amps failing and they were out forever before the gto amps came along. i'm sure the subs a pretty bulletproof too. hope your customer is happy.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

AVI said:


> Here's why . but it is only MY PERSONAL opinion ...
> For the most part , JBL sucks !!!!!!! I'm a retired musician , and their Pro gear always sucked balls. My EAD loudspeakers WALK ON WATER compared to literally anything JBL has ever made.
> I once used JBL car amps in my own car .... I don't know what in hell they did wrong , but the sound was VERY , VERY cold and unforgiving. The perfect example of non-musical .....


I agree that there is Pro gear out there that might offer more than what JBL has offered over the years but I have personally liked their stuff over some other so called BIG names in the Pro arena. I have been to some great and memorable concerts that had JBL upfront so I guess the sound did not get in the way of the performance. And again, some of their DJ level/ low power stage stuff sounds better than some of the other BIG names that I have heard or used.

As far as the GTi subs...they put some technology in that motor....and those things are old. No doubt they have the resources to make a nice driver...I don't see how that would be hard for people to figure out. I just think some of their car audio products have been hit or miss...This latest line is their best offerings as far as amps and subs. Their components have been more misses than hits over the years.


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2007)

WLDock said:


> I agree that there is Pro gear out there that might offer more than what JBL has offered over the years but I have personally liked their stuff over some other so called BIG names in the Pro arena. I have been to some great and memorable concerts that had JBL upfront so I guess the sound did not get in the way of the performance. And again, some of their DJ level/ low power stage stuff sounds better than some of the other BIG names that I have heard or used.
> 
> As far as the GTi subs...they put some technology in that motor....and those things are old. No doubt they have the resources to make a nice driver...I don't see how that would be hard for people to figure out. I just think some of their car audio products have been hit or miss...This latest line is their best offerings as far as amps and subs. Their components have been more misses than hits over the years.


How old is old? The *Dual Coil Drive* patent was filed in 1997.

And as i've already posted ... the technology is more about heat dissipation than distortion management. Which, as the recent tests by npdang have been demonstrating, is not a bad place to spend some R&D


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

audionutz said:


> ....
> And audionutz said unto his disciples, "go forth, and findeth said high sensitivity woofage, and bear forth such that MDF may be made to house it. Thine is the way of the righteous bass tones. Take heed to these instructions, for great joy will come henceforth and thou shalt find everlasting sonic bliss. And so, it shall be done"
> 
> 
> ...


He he he .... Where is the altar , oh Great One ??? .... LOL

The sub is sounding good , but make no mistake Audionutz , it has it's sins too. There is NO WAY this sub is playing the REAL low stuff as well as my SPG does , but then again , it is not fully broken in yet. On the other side of that , what it is doing in the 40 to 65 hz range is so impressive , a person may well overlook the lowest notes. 
It does also start to roll off some before it gets up to 80 hz , but in this particular vehicle , it's actually helping with tuning for the cabin gain ... LOL

Is it squashing my opinion ( you say misconception s ) about ported enclosures ? C'mon man .... ONE sucessful sub doesn't change the numerous poor ones I've heard. I'll give you this though : This sub is DEFINITELY bridging the gap from sealed to ported MUCH , MUCH better. Now , how much of that is due to stuffing that box with a fair amount of fiberfill ???? It's definitely going to help it to behave closer to sealed , being damped so well.
Regardless , this is the most important thing I can say at this point :

I know everyone wants to know the skinny ..... But this sub NEEDS to break in fully , and quit changing as it does , before I can really give a full review on it. I promise this though .... When it's ready , a review I WILL write , and it WILL be unbiased.


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

As far as the JBL issue ..... We all know that different manufacturers often end up with a signature sound , wether they mean to or not ....

Look at Quart for example .... Tweeter bleed syndrome.
Rainbow ..... smooth tweeters that don't lack detail
Ect , ect ...

JBL simply has ALWAYS had a cold and sterile sound in their mids and upper mids. Even good EQ doesn't help this. It's just part of the JBL sound , and you either like it or you don't .....

My first Gen JBL mobile audio amps SUCKED bad !!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Thus my question asking " And this from JBL " ??

My opinions about past JBL products will not be swayed , but then again I am VERY , VERY fair ..... because as willing as I am to tell it like it is about their products I don't like , *I will be just as diligent and eager to sing of this particular sub's wonderful sound , and give JBL the credit they deserve for it !!*


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

More on " cold and sterile " ...... This is one sin in the sound domain that I can NOT forgive. Whether in car , home , or pro audio.

I have a friend who uses Mackie powered studio monitors ( 8" version ) for his home speakers. YOU CAN HEAR EVERYTHING that is on EVERY recording !!!!!!!! Stuff a person never even knew was ON the recording !!!!
He loves them because they are SO revealing , and they are ....

But they have ABSOLUTELY ZERO musicality at all ...... They simply can NOT make you just relax and listen to the music.

*COLD AND STERILE ..... An unforgivable sin .*


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## Guest (Apr 14, 2007)

\


AVI said:


> He he he .... Where is the altar , oh Great One ??? .... LOL
> 
> The sub is sounding good , but make no mistake Audionutz , it has it's sins too. There is NO WAY this sub is playing the REAL low stuff as well as my SPG does , but then again , it is not fully broken in yet. On the other side of that , what it is doing in the 40 to 65 hz range is so impressive , a person may well overlook the lowest notes.


sounds like a very accurate description of a ported enclosure (4th order high-pass) compared to a sealed enclosure (2nd order high-pass)


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## shovelhd (Apr 8, 2007)

AVI said:


> Cause despite the name recognition , Crest 8001 amps smoked the living hell out of any Crown amp ...


Having owned and installed both...right on brother. They need lots of current but when you give it to them, they shine. I always ran them off of split 220V.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

AVI said:


> Well .... Before you just label me as another hater ....
> I have heard JBL equipment for the past 23 years as a professional musician.
> I have a VERY good knowledge of their signature sound , and it is flawed brother.
> Then again , Crown amplifiers tried to get me to use their amps , and I turned the sponsership down ..... Why ? Cause despite the name recognition , Crest 8001 amps smoked the living hell out of any Crown amp ...
> Not a hater , just a realist ....


Naaahhhh, you were just listening to the ****ty JBL stuff. They started doing well with he HLA stuff and the Vertec sounds great. Remember JBL made DRIVERS, Which showco, clair, and eletrotec embraced and smoked anything JBL put out at the time.

When was your crest endorsement? During the time the MA5000VZ was in production? Altough i can tell you crown horror stories too. I also use crest or QSC primarily. Lately Lab Gruppen alot, and loving it.

Chad


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

avi, if you want that jbl sub broken in put a 35 hz tone disk in the hu set it on repeat and volume to about 65% and leave it overnight. 

i have never heard an acoustic guitar, double bass, drums, or trumpet (played by anyone who could play) sound sterile?

accurate dynamics tonality and 'feel' ime, can only be accurately revealed by a completely neutral system.

any coloring of the sound makes it impossible for the origional intention of the musician to be heard.

un-coloured sound is exactly what i expect from an amp.

i know im out of my depth here with you big boys, but how can an audio system be flat from 20-20,000 and not be musical?

if its on the recording you'll hear it, your friends system is revealing but boreing? im going to sujjest next time you visit him try some different material.

im no scientist or college grad, but ive been a musician since i was 10 (43 now) ive spent a lot of time with real musicians,

i know what an intrument sounds like in person.

and that is what i want in my car.

im trying to not be rude and get a point across here

please no-one take a-fence,











































just a brick wall


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

chad said:


> Naaahhhh, you were just listening to the ****ty JBL stuff. They started doing well with he HLA stuff and the Vertec sounds great. Remember JBL made DRIVERS, Which showco, clair, and eletrotec embraced and smoked anything JBL put out at the time.
> 
> When was your crest endorsement? During the time the MA5000VZ was in production? Altough i can tell you crown horror stories too. I also use crest or QSC primarily. Lately Lab Gruppen alot, and loving it.
> 
> Chad


Well .... I particularly liked the 8001's of about 10 years ago ...


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

lukeboa said:


> avi, if you want that jbl sub broken in put a 35 hz tone disk in the hu set it on repeat and volume to about 65% and leave it overnight.
> 
> i have never heard an acoustic guitar, double bass, drums, or trumpet (played by anyone who could play) sound sterile?
> 
> ...


Man .... Go to Werewolf or Nguyen for the technical stuff ..... I can ONLY tell you what I hear , and for me .... That's all that matters


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

AVI said:


> Well .... I particularly liked the 8001's of about 10 years ago ...


The Crown MA5000VZ's killed them though, I ran the MA5K's on subs with he 8001's on mids and lows. Then I got my hands on the 9001's Woo-Hoo!

Have you tried out the new crest PRO (02 series?) Cool but not as ballsy as the "old iron" IMHO.

I used to H-A-T-E Crest's customer service and parts departments, after Peavey aquired them big positive changes have happened and things are MUCH more friendly, Much more!

Chad


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

The sub continues to break in , and is sounding SICK ... Here's what it reminds me of at this point : It has the fast transient edge sound that Alumapro does so very well , while having the rich tonal qualities of a Boston Acoustics or JL W6 sub , but with the balls of an ID Max. 
This is THE FIRST ported sub I have heard, that delivers on the promises ported subs bring , without the inherant drawbacks so MANY ported subs have. 
This doesn't make me an instant believer of ported enclosures , *but rather a believer that subs CAN be designed to work correctly in ported enclosures.* It makes me also wish manufactureres would stop trying to build subs that do everything equally well , and start building purpose driven subs that target one enclosure type or another.
This has me excited to see if the Oz Matrix Elite sub that's on it's way to me, can also sound great in a ported enclosure


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## audionutz (Dec 22, 2005)

Well said, sir! Bravo!
I feel there's something to be said about PROPER ENCLOSURE DESIGN and/or BUILD QUALITY as well. I mean, seriously, another factor of the bad rap ported enclosures have is simply people dont know and or dont care about building them right. OF COURSE a sub is gonna sound like crap if the box is wrong! 
AVI, what car is it in, and how is the sub firing?
Reason I ask is, I'm surprised you feel the roll-off on the bottom is noticable, and am wondering if sub position can help get more out of the cabin gain/transfer function.


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

audionutz said:


> Well said, sir! Bravo!
> I feel there's something to be said about PROPER ENCLOSURE DESIGN and/or BUILD QUALITY as well. I mean, seriously, another factor of the bad rap ported enclosures have is simply people dont know and or dont care about building them right. OF COURSE a sub is gonna sound like crap if the box is wrong!
> AVI, what car is it in, and how is the sub firing?
> Reason I ask is, I'm surprised you feel the roll-off on the bottom is noticable, and am wondering if sub position can help get more out of the cabin gain/transfer function.


System is in a Mercedes SLK , and the sub is the ONLY place it can fit in the trunk , and is firing backwards ...

Roll off isn't that very bad , and you have to remember that I listen to sealed enclosures that can do an honest 18 hz


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

AVI, do you still have that RTA around? If so why not measure the system and check how much exactly is the roll off on the bottom end and the drop in the FR near 80hz too?

A few years ago the W15GTi was tested by ME and the in-car FR was +-2.1dB's from 10-112hz in a sealed box.
The upper end response should still be there in the ported box, Just subdued by the bumped lower frequency's.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

audionutz said:


> ....
> 
> My $.02 on the JBL thing is this---
> The Powervalve amps and the first-gen class D stuff they tried to do is what gave JBL the **** name they had to wear for a while. Those amps would burn virtually every coil they came into contact with. They were basically distorion boxes...the absolute worst distortion ratings i can recall seeing. When they hired Crown to come assist with re-vamping the amp line, things changed drastically for the better! Now we see great amps and an actual strive to build product based on what works and what doesnt.


While I appreciate the rest of this post and the poster's change in attitude after using the newer gear, the above information is crap, plain and simple. Those early Power Series amplifiers were great and had seriously low defect and return rates. Distortion doesn't burn speakers anyway--power does.


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## sotelomichael (Dec 2, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> While I appreciate the rest of this post and the poster's change in attitude after using the newer gear, the above information is crap, plain and simple. Those early Power Series amplifiers were great and had seriously low defect and return rates. Distortion doesn't burn speakers anyway--power does.


wow.... over 2 years old. Let it go man.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Just found it. Sorry. Still crap.


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