# Work Van Build - I got bored



## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

EDIT: NOTE: Im not totally an sq guy, i like to be able to show out on occasion with buddies comparing setups like its a d$%k measuring contest im not gonna lie. So, i want the best of both worlds, SPL and SQ WHEN i want it, how i want it. So lots of things i do here are going to seem silly to most SQ audiophiles but just bear with me.

Anyway....I got bored driving 30 minutes to an hour plus to each of my service calls for work.

so I decided to put these pieces of equipment from various “budget-whatever that means- projects” in my work…..VAN lol

I’m not much of a tech spec guy whenwe’re talking crossover types or the deep deep knowledge that some of you guys have here (actually had to ask here what order crossover was in my amp)

BUT I do love good sounding music and I’m not afraid to try much.which usually lands me paying twice as much but learning half ass how to do whatever it was.

so here is my one week project (so call it three weeks) EDIT: Pretty sure were on week 5 at this point , go figure!

if I show up bangin to fix your washing machine never mind me I’m just having a good day my friend although I’m not sure how this is going to affect my business when my customers get drowned in sound at the red light.

well sort of, it is a budget system after all.

EDIT: why not list what we have going on here.

Headunit- JVC kenwood kw-v340bt with back up cam perfect for a service van to keep the insurance a bit happier, mic for phone calls again insurance company will like it, less talking while driving tickets lol.
Processor- zapco dsp-z8 dc series 8 channel , 10 bands of eq per channel etc etc
amps- zapco ST-6X WITHOUT the dsp for tweeters, mid range, dash mounted mid bass, zapco 2000xmii monoblock for the two subwoofers, skar audio msk-200.1 for the underseat midbass
Tweeters- peerless by tymphany xt25sc90 
mid range-hivi 2" dome close backed
mid bass set one- (4) dayton audio nd-140-8 5.25" (probably ported but unsure at this point)
mid bass set 2 - (2) Gr research 7" woofers (ported, tuned up farther in the intended band but port will be modified once we have it playing)
subwoofers- (2) 18" stereo integrity ht18v3-infinite baffle (ISH) AROUND 124cu ft on the other side of the wall (the entire van after the wall)

First up is the midbass enclosure…I know, that’s insane right? Why in the world would ANYONE bother with that? Especially for such a budget 7” driver!
Because I could- I wanted something that was a budget banger and I got the suggestion from this forum. It didn’t disappoint in sealed off but leaky doors in my car and I’m hoping a huge sealed box will open them up even more.

I originally built this box to be ported but after learning to use winisd so-so over the past while I decided to keep it sealed and hopefully be able to keep it tight and accurate with a fairly flat response but enough spl to please myself anyway, I have no idea how this will sound but from looking at it on a graph it doesn’t seem too bad .
2.8 cubic ft before displacement sealed is the final route here.
Riv nuts in the floor bolted down on top of deadener and foam . Resin coated seams and 5/8” threaded rod/tee nuts/washers bolts between each under seat box where the driver will be , firing into the footwell to hopefully pick up more cabin gain.

and it doubles as storage for my office supplies pens etc(going to put another layer on top of the center section, a tray lined with that toolbox foam I forget what it’s called.


EDIT: this enclosure actually ended up being partitioned off down the very center, ported and tuned to 50hz to get the best response i could from 50-150hz. No port noise, have some tinsel lead slap i need to tame! i think the drivers were made with too long of a tinsel lead honestly. considering the cost......i think ill just find a way to deal with that slap.
EDIT: again, the tuning is changing as i get all of this together just bare with me.

nevermind the washers and dryers this is my shop area, think ill make some scrap haulers day and give them away. EDIT: i did, now they just need to come get the other 47!

The rear of this box will slide up against a custom divider wall like you see in cargo vans, except mine will be made of wood and have something about 18” across hanging inside of it.

the rear of this box will have an amp rack on it with the sub basket between the amps, fans for the amps.
Covering it all in matching vinyl.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

The midbass themselves, gr research m-165x

I modeled a few sets I have around but this one always had a smoother graph and got low. I bought Dayton nd140-8 (4) of them a while back but they don’t graph as good as these with 4 drivers vs 2 so I’ll just use this old set .

here they are next to an ampere audio 8” sub, the picture makes them look bigger and they are not but they are beefy.

8ohm but sensitive. EDIT: as mentioned, i decided to run both sets the gr and the daytons. because, why not? and the midbass has to keep up with two monster 18s.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

The tweets (peerless by tymphany xt25sc90) -budget as it gets but have rave reviews and I will say I agree.
These things are clear and crisp without hissing at you , they’re great.

mounted in a 2” pvc pipe cut down at an angle with a 2nd pvc ring with a split in it , about 3/4” removed from it so it will sit tight inside the pipe until it was epoxied in place. Ihad to do this to mount it with screws.

then just covered them with black vinyl for now until I can make it to the fabric store .
Just drilled two holes in the a pillar cover, one for my speaker wire, one for a toggle bolt, tightened it and it worked way better than lamp hardware . (I tried that one last time)

those are deadened inside just for kicks.I tend to go overboard.

the aim is decent since while I was building them I wittled them by going back and forth from car to shop to check fitment quite often, sure beats fiberglass! I remember having 40 hours in fiberglass pods for my mids and highs last time. they can be swiveled up and down but not side to side by loosening the toggle , moving them, retightening the toggle screw. Easy.

3khz amp crossover

all passives removed, will edit entire thread since i have now bought a dsp and things have changed drastically.


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## HandyLGCA (12 mo ago)

I hear that about sitting in the van and wanting some tunes. I built a center console for my metris van. It has a JL 8 w7 and it fits right between the seats. It’s bolted down in 4 spots and the sub faces the rear so you really cant see anything. Now I have all the amps/ the dsp/ and distro blocks mounted on a panel behind the partition.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

The budget mid range, the good ole Dayton audio rs100p , I loved these on axis in my car but from preliminary listening I’m not impressed with them in this configuration, however being fair, I didn’t have any tuning or eqing and only listened for a few minutes thinking to myself “what is wrong here”?

I think it was just that I’m using a different amp than I did before , and I probably didn’t have the crossovers adjusted right, I was in a hurry at that point but I’ll revisit this later.
These were put into the van dash which has a pretty nice size pocket under it if your crazy like me and cut the driver side heater vent a smidge , ok, more like 4” which I deadened and built a sealed enclosure of approximately 0.4 cubic ft inside of just using deadener which isn’t the same as an actual enclosure but ….if I’m not impressed I’ll glass them in no problem. I get bored a lot. And the vent was sealed too btw.
They are FIRMLY attached to a 1/2” baffle that I made from the carboardish templates dodge was so considerate to leave me since this van came without dash speakers. Appreciate ya dodge!

they should sound great , but we will see. The tuning even without a dsp could be rough or easy I have no clue what will happen , I’m a noob at that portion of this game. But I’m having fun!

EDIT: THIS CHANGED OF COURSE, blew one of these mids and moved to the HIVI domes


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

The sub, it’s going in the back wall above the amp rack but close toward the floor for stability. Wouldn’t want that thing above my head in a moving vehicle no thanks.



Some people swear by this in an infinite baffle configuration, I’m about to find out but technically it’ll only see about 48 cubic ft give or take after all of my shelving goes in the back.

yeah my tools will be in tool box foam and bags, my shelves lined with carpet and angled down at the back a bit to attempt to keep them from vibrating off the shelf.

hoping to do away with most of the rattles with enough deadener, foam, carpet, and a stiff and solid wall for this to sit in. (Needed a wall anyway )

riv nuts will be used for every connection , or at least I’ve bought the kit lol

EDIT: True to form, this changed too.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Just an old le wood double din head unit, but I do like it’s dsp, I’m already familiar with it,front rear sub out, doesn’t have 4 but luckily the amp will send the signal to however many inputs you choose to the others.
So the front set will cover mid or tweet or both technically since it has the option to adjust mids and tweeters on the front set I believe , although it doesn’t matter I’ll just put a high pass on both if necessary since the rs100p doesn’t sound too bad stand alone full range….this is why I’m using the components I am….only had to buy a sub and I have no dsp. Flexible transducers are nice in the situation.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

0guage in 4 gauge/0guage out.

this was completely unnecessary with the amount of power I’ll actually be using but vs what the amps should be capable of it is a different story.

my way is usually try to do it right from the get go so I don’t have to go back later. The amps CAN pull about 220-280 amps I presume.
The way I’m using them I would say I might pull 100 amps? Maybe.
IB sub , baby mid range and tweet, sensitive mid bass…I don’t think leaving the 150 amp anl in that came with the kit is a problem.
besides, it’s cca and we all know it won’t even carry a 2 volt head unit pre out signal (snickering, rolling eyes)


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

amps!
What can I say, they’re pretty but they don’t seem to have a great rep as far as power numbers go anymore.
Fine with me , it let me acquire them at a nice discount over the years in like absolutely new condition.
Even the negative reviews or the YouTube video with “ya boy” hifi Vega (which I completely respect and am a sub btw) couldn’t say they don’t sound good.
It’s like this, I don’t need the numbers they claim, in fact I’m pretty dang sure it’s just the st 4x and a two channel thrown into a longer case with padded numbers since the 4 channel is 65 watts @ 4ohm and that’s about what it dynoed at…. And I think we all know we don’t need huge power numbers here.

This is my work van not my spl van 😆


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

That’s a weeks worth of work, see ya next week!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

HandyLGCA said:


> I hear that about sitting in the van and wanting some tunes. I built a center console for my metris van. It has a JL 8 w7 and it fits right between the seats. It’s bolted down in 4 spots and the sub faces the rear so you really cant see anything. Now I have all the amps/ the dsp/ and distro blocks mounted on a panel behind the partition.
> View attachment 332506


That looks nice 👍 and I bet it makes the drives for work not so bad anymore….I’m secretly doing this so I stay at work and away from you know who 😆 

jk

I’ve had a lot of different work vans with a lot of different companies and it’s rare to get one that’s as clean as yours….Same….can’t stand a dirty and unorganized work can even though at times I have to let it go.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

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Toying around for a week off and on this is what I came up with for below 500hz

like I said I’m going to figure the mids out, it’s the amp, they were great on a lesser brand amp so I really hope this zapco doesn’t sound that dull.

let me know if I need to adjust please guys, as I said, long time listener, first time attempting a few of these things I am trying!

EDIT: These are trashed, they were garbage now that im learning how to use this program. Updated graphs will come although they really mean nothing compared to an actual RTA measurement.


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

That box looks huge, but


JohnL2001 said:


> The midbass themselves, gr research m-165x
> 
> I modeled a few sets I have around but this one always had a smoother graph and got low. I bought Dayton nd140-8 (4) of them a while back but they don’t graph as good as these with 4 drivers vs 2 so I’ll just use this old set .
> 
> ...


If I am orienting this correctly, midbass is under seat and sub firing to the rear?


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Focused4door said:


> That box looks huge, but
> 
> 
> If I am orienting this correctly, midbass is under seat and sub firing to the rear?


it is a little big, but it also functions as a place to store my pens/pads/etc

2.77cu tuned to 70ish I believe.
Fits under my seat firing tge 7” into the footwell but the woofers/ports are both as far left and right as possible to still have some stereo response.


I have worked on it some more and almost finished it but tested it before even gluing the top down- sounds pretty wicked to me….as winisd predicted it can’t handle much power below 50hz but that’s fine since I wanted it to go from 50-250hz and from listeneing to it I think I have accomplished that with eq cut/boosts and crossover points

it WILL play 50 with enough spl that you might think there is a 10” sub hiding somewhere but will also play Metallica or rock music in the 70-120hz music very well and no problem at around 220hz either , pretty loud but not loud loud that was the trade off. But keep in mind these aren’t rated power wise however winisd says they are good to only 55 watts each, these are 8ohm and my amp only claims to do 100 watts per channel 4 ohm plus the dyno of this amp that hifivega did Says it’s more like 78 watts per channel @4ohm.

so basically they have only 35-40 watts of power being supplied, if I bridge I can get 80 but I’m afraid to give it more -the 50hz area will kill them but again this ok my sub will pick up where these leave off.

keep in mind your definition of loud may be different than mine,all the same it’s louder than I would want to listen to daily, by design, I wanted it to be good for listening volumes but handle a bit of showing off also, it does ok, I can at least say I’ve never heard anyone’s mid bass this loud in a car anyway. I’m sure there are MUCH better.

it’s an sbb design from winisd, more transient oriented box design that still has a bit of boom.

could have went ib but I just felt like building I guess. Couldn’t let all that room under the seat go to waste and the last time I did my mid bass in door even after sealing them very well and putting loads of dynamat,on,in,under, everywhere then my mirrors rattled outside the car…..I didn’t want these in my doors again.

The sub WILL be ib , in the wall between the front seats. Magnet between seats bottoms.

it’s not fancy but it’s fun to play with enclosures and the software and see what you can make happen with it.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

OK

so this project has went from one thing to another

The need for more kicked in so i tested some new things out and at this point this is what we have....

Sticking with the same tweeters (tymphany xtsc90) but i have bought and tested another midrange (hivi 2" dome midrange) AND they are going in the sail panels powered off of a zapco st6x sq , also channel 5 and 6 will power a set of (4) dayton audio nd140-8 as "upper mid bass" custom fabricated into the dash. (ported enclosure)

During testing in small little test boxes that were only .13 cu ft i got that nice kick in the chest mid bass from these guys, coupled with the underseat 7" mid bass playing from 250 down to 50hz it is a beast ! a drum set has never sounded so good to me so this is the direction i am going.

A 5 way setup is a bit crazy, i only have 6 channels of amp for my front stage, so i have dug up a tiny 200 watt monoblock from my collection to handle the underseat mid bass, i will only play those guys from 50-150 to keep them from sounding directional and the (4) 5 1/4"ers on the dash tie that sound to my dash seamlessly in my opinion it doesnt matter if i play them from 50-250 but i will probably take the dash mid bass from 100-150 to 250 because all im really looking for with those are snare drums and such no kick drum is really needed from these it is well supported by the underseat 7" woofers already.

also i found a great deal on an older zapco dc series dsp-z8 to make this all work, the only problem i am running into is having to possibly split channels 7/8 for my underseat mid bass amp and sub amp. but i will move forward with this project none the less.

started on the sail panels for the tweeters and dome mids yesterday, aiming is an insanely hard thing to do ! but its within my bullseye ( a nice piece of cardboard with a couple of bullseyes on it lol , one for mid and one bullseye for tweeter,hung directly in center of the vehicle, and aimed right at ear level height wise and depth wise) using the tool i bought a few years back from CAF with the laser pointer that kind of mounts onto the speaker or speaker ring in my case, i will continue to zero it in to perfection hopefully when i get more time away from work and family duties. Then i will stretch fabric and resin it all in, shaping as i go.

FOR NOW this is what the sails look like, however once they are finished being aimed- i think i will cut them down to a more traditional teardrop shape, however the shape they are now was necessary to figure out how i would mount them, aim them etc .

Lots of work, but if i get this right , the rest falls into place in my opinion.


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## TheMostHated (7 mo ago)

JohnL2001 said:


> I got bored driving 30 minutes to an hour plus to each of my service calls for work.
> 
> so I decided to put these pieces of equipment from various “budget-whatever that means- projects” in my work…..VAN lol
> 
> ...


That looks pretty damn good. Especially for just a work van.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

t


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## TheMostHated (7 mo ago)

I just finished (ha!!! It will never be completely finished!!!) my first car system in my 2009 work truck. Once I learned about speaker box sound curve, I gave up on building my own boxes. Wished I would've though. Hell keep going. Ignore the snobby haters on here. I've gotten more hate than help because of the brand I chose.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

No need to roast me for my avengers comforter!!!!!!!!!! i used the blankie from my work van that i use to lay down when laying an appliance over to block out the sun so that i could see the laser!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

beautiful headliner isnt it? lol, its got to be ripped out and replace when the partition wall goes in anyway so it is what it is for now!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

This thing has gotten a bit beat up over the years, but i checked and it still shoots a straight laser beam so no need to replace it.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

The back of my van is filling up fast, and is a real mess, the partition wall has to be finished before building shelving though unfortunately so i will just have to do what i can until the audio is done ! im hard headed!


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Progressing nicely...!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

TheMostHated said:


> That looks pretty damn good. Especially for just a work van.


Thank you! i spend a LOT of time in this van driving.....i have a spare van but if this breaks down its getting fixed i dont care if i have to rebuild the entire van lol.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

TheMostHated said:


> I just finished (ha!!! It will never be completely finished!!!) my first car system in my 2009 work truck. Once I learned about speaker box sound curve, I gave up on building my own boxes. Wished I would've though. Hell keep going. Ignore the snobby haters on here. I've gotten more hate than help because of the brand I chose.


If someone chooses to be that way, then that is their business. 

As the saying goes i believe, your opinion of me is none of my business!

This build log is for one thing and one thing only......to keep me motivated!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

MythosDreamLab said:


> Progressing nicely...!


Thank you!!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Transfer function graph for subs, lower midbass and upper midbass with all things taken into consideration MINUS cabin gain….I guess I’ll deal with that as it comes.

imo this is just me looking at things from a perspective of “if I actually WANT it flat, will it be able to do it?”

but I doubt I want it that way.


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

Looks like fun  thanks for sharing!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

SQ_Bronco said:


> Looks like fun  thanks for sharing!


While building stuff like this I’m always thinking I can’t wait to hear this

But once I get it together it seems like every time I either want more out of it or just can’t seem to leave things alone because I like to build.

I guess that’s how we all are maybe this time it’ll stick


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Obviously sound quality from an iPhone tells you nothing about the sound quality of the vehicle

but you can hear the mic distort when the air pressure hits it, that’s the 7” mid bass only ....the dash mid bass are not there neither is a sub.

they get down , but only lower in the mid bass range.

oh, and the hivi domes combined with the tymphany tweets are CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN sounding, every whisper you hear, every breathe on the mic or off of it for that matter, water drops sound like water drops, etc etc

could not be happier with the mid range/tweeter combo!









June 28, 2022







youtube.com


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

JohnL2001 said:


> Transfer function graph for subs, lower midbass and upper midbass with all things taken into consideration MINUS cabin gain….I guess I’ll deal with that as it comes.
> 
> imo this is just me looking at things from a perspective of “if I actually WANT it flat, will it be able to do it?”
> 
> but I doubt I want it that way.


p.s., i know this isnt flat at 0 , thats the 5db boost i plan to run in that area when all is said and done, it CAN go perfectly flat......which with 8 bass/midbass speakers i should certainly hope that to be the case. lmao


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

JohnL2001 said:


> I got bored driving 30 minutes to an hour plus to each of my service calls for work.
> 
> so I decided to put these pieces of equipment from various “budget-whatever that means- projects” in my work…..VAN lol
> 
> ...





HandyLGCA said:


> I hear that about sitting in the van and wanting some tunes. I built a center console for my metris van. It has a JL 8 w7 and it fits right between the seats. It’s bolted down in 4 spots and the sub faces the rear so you really cant see anything. Now I have all the amps/ the dsp/ and distro blocks mounted on a panel behind the partition.
> View attachment 332506


I think i like the fact theres a 12 pack of bud in the passenger seat even more than i like your enclosure lol

put a seatbelt on that baby!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

The ugly side of custom installation, sometimes it gets messy . 

unfortunately i have door handles in the way, so the baffle will have to be cut in a way to avoid those, thats what the big indention near the top outer corners is. Work more on this when the actual baffle starts to be built.

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content








































































Fabbing up my wall, I decided it to be a bit smarter to do this first since I need to figure out lengths for my signal cables, amp rack layout, and it would be nice to have the wall in when figuring out final driver placement with cabin gain factored in (also rear fill may be a pita)

and the great thing about what I’m using for templates is that I may well sandwich a couple of these in between 2 layers of mdf/oak and get a nice r value out of it for the hvac system so it has to do less work 😂

yes it’s a mess and my ocd is kicking in but I’ll clean it up.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Finished the templates now it’s time to start cutting wood!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

OK, I had a thread going here on the forums about my situation with subwoofers and i had decided to go with a vented enclosure. i have changed back to Infinite baffle so....

its T time, and this is what i have decided to do although i have said i was NOT going to do this.

Im going infinite baffle!
(1) because as i have toyed around and learned more about winisd i have found the tools useful on paper and i want to see just how close they model to real life.
(2) Infinite baffle Output is pretty much spot on with the the vented design with the most output in the bass region that i could come up with WITH THE CORRECT EQ APPLIED, by the way that thing has enough boost built in to pound like a jackhammer off of 1 watt much less the 1500 i am supplying it with at 2 ohms. (obviously i know it wont get 1500 all the time) AND i did take it past 50hz to 80hz lowpass and apply the same flat (ironically boosted to flat) eq there as at 25hz roughly, the difference i ended up with between vented and IB was so miniscule its not even worth the enclosure build.
(3)Its going to be so much easier to just build a damn good baffle, rather than a 16ft cubic ft ported design that will have to be custom molded to every contour of my van to save as much space as possible and i would still need to come up with a port design ... because im overboard and want even the port to match the shape of the design (no plain square or circular ports)

so here is my max output and TFM graph, im giving it all i have on paper or better yet in winisd, to get an approximation of what i can do with dsp in the car, dsp in the car should work even better than this if i have my thinking cap on here. I know my cabin gain frequency, or around about it, and i have built around it. Example is i didnt need much boost in the lower bass frequencies and that helps a lot when trying to limit cone excursion, and as far as cone excursion goes im not that concerned in fact i bet the SI ht18v3 actually has way more in it because that is LINEAR cone excursion and my guess is that most people ride around listening to music with the subwoofer way past linear excursion because of how easy it would be to miss a little bit of distortion in a noisy car environment..(and they use bass boost on a head unit)

So here goes, about to try this , sawdust /glue/fiberglass jelly/vinyl possibly... long weekend/job ahead wish me luck!

p.s. One of the graphs below is vented and one is IB... without anything but looking at the graph guess which one lol. I know some of you could actually tell by the graph but some couldnt.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

k so i kinda snuck an extra 18 in there lol


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

ok, so i got started on the subwoofer baffle yesterday finally. But , got nowhere near as far as i had planned given i needed to run around and spend money on things for the majority of the day unfortunately . needed hardware for mounting the subs (t nuts, allen head BLACK screws in a decent size) various tools i thougth would be handy to have, etc etc etc

Im lucky to have a wife thats not going to complain very much, i mean i am the bread winner of the house after all....she and my son even helped me put a 1/2" roundover on this front piece of the baffle, which was a chore and still had to be sanded given my router table is VERY small. If your married guys, a good woman is worth the world so i chose her based on stereo equipment and not totally superficial reasoning

Now, if youll think about the amount of force that two 18s put out at low frequency and the fact that most people double , maybe even triple baffle just a small diameter trunk baffle (~15") and for good reason, this means my ~48+ inch span of baffle is going to have to be even stronger. So the plan is one layer of mdf, one layer of oak 3/4" ply behind that (because you cant get any better sheet wood here) and i MAY add a 3rd layer front or back but the key is going to be using 2x4s for bracing. (which will be worked until they do NOT LOOK like 2x4s because thats just tacky!)

I had considered a thick steel baffle welded in but decided against it and may regret that. But i think it goes without saying around these forums that the more firm a baffle surface is the less output wasted on resonating the vehicle and the more focus on ACTUAL music energy.

so far i have removed the headliner (because its going to be rebuilt to accomodate the wall/recovered, removed the seats/midbass box/carpet and put down deadener and padding in the area where my midbass box and sub baffle will be, put the carpet ,box,seats back in . i.e. The floor is very stiff and dead in this van, although im sure soon ill be adding some type of road noise deadener down there. The roof of this van however? TOTALLY different story, if you knock on it it rings like a bell.....im going to have to order so much deadener i fear the wharehouse will be on backorder, but all in good fun.

I Then Worked on the baffle which itself takes forever to get a perfectly snug fit, but i DO have a solution to even the smallest air leak. On top of your average sound deadener sheets and making sure my baffle meets every edge no matter how many detailed cuts must be made (in my capability), i am going to line the contacting edges of my baffle with a nice foam rubber, nice firm but flexible expansion...................and where did i find this in a pinch yesterday? LOWES! plumbing aisle, 1" pipe wrap but not the cheap crap thats only foam i splurged for the $10 per 6 ft section actual rubber stuff lol . This stuff is definately strong enough to hold up and give or take 6" wide when flattened which is more than adequate since my frame for the baffle will be somewhere between 3.5" to 6" not sure yet, i kind of work off of a design i built on paper and go wild from there when im building.

The guy at lowes also showed me horse mats, which i have experience with, but man they have no give since they are designed for a 1000 plus pound animal to stand on HOWEVER these COULD make good sound deadening material on the floor of the vehicle to keep road noise down and would possibly be cheaper than the amount of deadener you would need to keep things extra quiet.....but i doubt ill go there since this cannot be applied to the roof I DONT THINK.

The thing im most certain of here is that i will essentially put a 4x4 post right between the subs on the rear of the baffle, and most likely end up using a home type framing method for my baffle (turn 2x4s so that the 1.5" edge contacts the rear of the baffle) since this is where the 2x4 is strongest. And i MIGHT build a brace around the subwoofer, im considering the idea of a cage/brace combo since i had planned to put a cage with a ton of holes in it around them to keep them from damage in the work part of my van ie things banging the sub during transit. We will see what i can come up with there as well.

well im rambling on and all over the place here, tiime to get some coffee in me, and get back to sawdust city. who knows may yap away a little more as i have my coffee


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Also, the thought of putting a texture on the baffle and then painting it to match has been on my mind since vinyl is probably going to be a real PITA in certain areas , but ill cross that bridge when i get to it. 

It just seems easier to contour everything with a sander/fiberglass/resin/bondo then texture and paint rather than do all of the above anyway then try to wrap it with matching vinyl or carpet to me. My mind may change though as usual. 

Oh, and ill be using a nut setter to mount everything hopefully if i can find spaces under the vehicle where i need them to be, the sides and roof seem to line up with something i can put a bolt in just fine ironically, yet again , things could change as i go we shall see!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Little more progress
3/4 mdf, 3/4 oak ply, 2x4 framing started glued and screwed

t nuts front and back (lowes shorted me two so two are missing in the pic, wife went out and got me two more though)


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Looks good and sorry if I missed it, but I sure do hope that you are planning on putting a brace strut or two or three in the middle of that large baffle between the subwoofers at the very least.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

seafish said:


> Looks good and sorry if I missed it, but I sure do hope that you are planning on putting a brace strut or two or three in the middle of that large baffle between the subwoofers at the very least.


yeah you missed it but no harm no foul.

about two posts or so up i explain that.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

seafish said:


> Looks good and sorry if I missed it, but I sure do hope that you are planning on putting a brace strut or two or three in the middle of that large baffle between the subwoofers at the very least.


and the center post thats going in will be a little longer than needed so as to push up on the roofline since i think this will solidify everything a little better......with rubber between the post and van roof of course.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

This baffle had to be driven in with one person pulling up with all they had on a 4 ft pry bar and two people with one sledge hammer each banging away on it......the only way we got it started on its way in is I personally had to lay down and kick as hard as I could with someone holding me in place.....

if There is a leak when I’m finished I’m not even going to sweat it at this point ! (we all know thats BS) But the truth is i SERIOUSLY doubt there will be an air leak once the sides are finished up (hopefully before i hit the sack tonight but im not sure because those will be some intracate cuts and the templates i had made may not work so well since we could never get this thing fully level.....its about an 1/8" out of level top to bottom but we had to quit on it and ill just live with it.

The good news is the roof of the van sounds pretty damn solid now , mostly from all of the pressure being appliied by the shoehorned in baffle and deadener...plus ive got a few more boxes of deadener to put on it and more of the rubber to put in places that i think may give me rattles such as the framing members of the roof that could break loose from their spray foam insulation from the factory. and im sure there will be many rattles to track down other than that....soon hopefully. 

Would probably help if i got up and went back outside if i want it done, but its very humid here and im on break!

IF THIS DOES NOT SOUND GOOD..............I may well drive the van off a cliff lol. put too much work into this!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Had to cut out for the night but got started enclosing the sides. I’m doing that before I frame in.

also found why I was out of level by an 1/8” and will be fixing it as soon as I’m up for another round of hammer swinging.
It’s ok that I didn’t get to finish it this weekend, it gives me time to consider some ideas and get used to the drastic change in sound
and the ac being super strong nstead of struggling to cool the huge van area lol imagine a refrigeration tech that doesn’t bother to fix his own ac…. I never have time. But , at least now there is a 90 percent less chance that something is going to slide forward in the cabin and hit me upside the head. Silver linings! clean up was once again brutal this weekend of the build... at 10pm knowing you have to be up at around 6 in the morning and you still need to clean your yard up, load your van up with tools and put all the tools you had out , back up, into three different buildings in the dark (larger sized yard, we live rural, things are cheapish)

yet here i am, on the build log...


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Wanted to leave myself a note or two

I think i may build my shelving in this fan so as to create a sort of "box" that takes up just the right amount of space so the subs see say for instance EXACTLY 72 cubic ft of air space if thats what they so desire....cant remember right now what that number is but that doesnt matter ATM.

Also, the baffle is going to probably be 5" + thick with a wicked design, more on that later when its done. What you see here so far is only a skeleton of a baffle in my mind.

Also leave myself another note because i am already forgetful at 43, it looks as though i could scoot the baffle back when i go in to realign it which i have to do anyway, and use U bolts to attach it to the old mid row seat hold downs instead of nut serts through the floor which would solve my problem of trying to put a bolt every 6-8"inches with a nut under the vehicle .....with things like...you know, an exhaust, a driveline, subframe rails etc in the way. Its an idea anyway. OF COURSE, this will be quite the chore since the bottom 2x4s are wood glued to each other and one is glued to the baffle maybe both cant remember right now.....chit

I think my problem is, i can never leave well enough alone. In fact i know its my problem.

Would explain the random projects i start around the house and never finish.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

ok, next day
i had a light work day so i spent a few minutes covering the sides quickly with boards in a non permanent fashion ( still had some leaks on the sides no doubt)

at 20-30 HZ its a complete wind machine, but it doesnt sound very good to me for some reason. Keep in mind i was just testing the theory and had no dsp or had done no tuning which may make all the difference in the world.

At the very least my plan is already a success because i only wanted my subs play 50hz and below in the first place, and im sure they will play that with eq and ACTUALLY finishing my baffle. 

I literally had no test time by the time i was done it was 9pm and i had to consider neighbors lol so who knows what this thing can really do i may be way off base by my assumptions.

OH YEAH THEY WERE BEING POWERED BY A 200 WATT MONOBLOCK LOL AND IT IS VERY CLOSE TO TEARING NOTEBOOK PAPER UP IF YOU PUT IT IN THE WINDOW AT 20HZ. that being said, and thats cool and all, but i may make some changes. im assuming the lack of any music ( no tweeters,mid range, or mid bass installed) has me a bit disappointed and not so much the subs. 

Do they pound? absolutely but at this point anything above 30-40 hz seems like its not enjoyable i dunno what it is yet but ill get it right.


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

Wow, you’re making a ton of progress! Looks great.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

I'm digging the SPL+SQ vibe!


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

If you decide to, you should be able to use drywall butterfly fasteners with a 1 1/2 - 2"OD washer behind the bolt head to hold up the horse mats for deadening.
You might have to add more ribs to the inside roof so you can maintain a good support for the mat, but those should work









Toggle Bolt and Wing Nut Kit for Hanging Heavy Items on Drywall - Toggle Anchors15 Pcs: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific


Toggle Bolt and Wing Nut Kit for Hanging Heavy Items on Drywall - Toggle Anchors15 Pcs: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



www.amazon.com


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

BP1Fanatic said:


> I'm digging the SPL+SQ vibe!


Thank you!


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Once you get a DSP and get the install buttoned up it is relatively easy to tame below 30Hz with filters and EQ - too much is better than not enough... and music *is *WAY different than test tones.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> If you decide to, you should be able to use drywall butterfly fasteners with a 1 1/2 - 2"OD washer behind the bolt head to hold up the horse mats for deadening.
> You might have to add more ribs to the inside roof so you can maintain a good support for the mat, but those should work
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks!

I was looking around at tractor supply as a matter of fact and i found that " cattle panels" are made of pretty thick steel and if i cut one up into sections i could spot weld them to the roof in specific areas to create tension which i would assume would lead to a much more solid roof kind of like a webbing support. ESPECIALLY if you weld one side then push in with everything you have to create tension in the middle....then weld the other side in to hold that tension, then of course to keep it from slapping in the middle spot weld the middle also.

the horse mats, i dunno i could possibly do that on the floor and i may just take your idea up on the roof. But , with proper upward pressure im finding that the roof isnt so noisy so ill probably weld in the panel pieces and go from there on it.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

daloudin said:


> Once you get a DSP and get the install buttoned up it is relatively easy to tame below 30Hz with filters and EQ - too much is better than not enough... and music *is *WAY different than test tones.


i like the way you think!  what more would i expect of YOU than great ideas though.

I listened and listened and had friends listen with all speakers in place -until i decided to keep the current build plan in place however we did have to move the wall back give or take 6" for comfortable leg room. The cancellations at 50hz didnt seem so bad even with windows up after that and changing the phase on the subs to 180* out so with as much work as i had put in.....i figured lets just finish this and move on!

Next vehicle i do will be true IB through the floor but so much has gone into this and i needed a partition wall so again..left it alone kindaish.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Things are progressing more slowly than anticipated, ive been swamped with work lately. I started on the amp rack this weekend after situating my mid bass box and subwoofer baffle where it needed to go permanently. 

I did not get to finish the amp rack in time so i never took any photos. 

Maybe ill go snap a few of " in progress" photos before leaving for work today.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

The DSP will stand up in front of and between the two zapco amps.

Once the cover goes on all you will see would be the two zapco amps and dsp, lighting etc. but still, once the cover is off the wiring must be "pretty" in my mind.....but it will be a chore. trying to keep power cables from crossing paths with signal cables in this tiny amp rack is a B****!

The amps dont look centered and thats because of the angle of the picture. They are trust me im anal about spatial differences and being tidy even though from looking through those 18" holes you can see stuff just all over the place in the back of the van.....thats because im ocd and if its not near perfect i just give up and start letting stuff lay where it lands lol. It will be neat once im finished which will help with my efficiency at work as crazy as that sounds...thats just me. Do the dirty, ugly work first then once everything is right my mental state becomes right.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

The only thing that fell into place with the wiring so far is the speaker outputs for the subwoofers (and yes thats 8 guage, i had a ton of it laying around and it looked good so i went with it but obviously i dont think its AT ALL necessary) 

To me the subwoofer amp output wires have a nice curve shape to them. Im currently working the rest testing different ways of cable management. I have a thing for it being neat( i was in communications for several years and i wasnt one of the hacks thatll let a rack go wild, id be in there combing and cleaning up the wires into ordered bunches on my downtime just for the hell of it)

The rest will be figured out trial and error.

Its damn hard to get a nice curve on a piece of short 0 awg!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Ok got to dress this wiring up a bit.

Ordered some ferrule type terminals for all power and grounds with red and black heat shrink to take care of that problem with the sharp turn in the 1/0 ground hopefully, because no matter what you do you have an ugly connection with such a sharp bend, who knows i may be able to orient the knuconceptz distrubution blocks a little different and cure what ales me , but anyway went ahead and kept on with that finished look with ferrules and a crimper for all the smaller wiring with proper size red and black heat shrink of course oh and a crimper tool. I even went with blue ferrules/heat shrink for the remote turn on wires  oh and dont forget a relay for those while were on the subject!

also found some clips to hold all my wire sizes, i really prefer flexclips like i used to use in telecom and they come in all the perfect sizes for this , but i couldnt remember all the part numbers so i just went to a local store and bought padded and plastic clips for the job.

Ill probably throw some techflex on some of it also to help hide the bunching up of wires because thats probably going to be the only way to make it look decent in a cramped space. problem is i didnt exactly know what size to order and my work van is in the shop for what seems to be routine maintenance at this point. (put lots of miles on it, a new engine could basically be routine maintenance these days)

after all of this is complete and the baffle is complete , itll all come out when im satisfied and then it goes to body work. .....then covering it all or paint not sure yet.(includes the underseat midbass enclosure cause shes FUGLY but functional)

ready to get this fab work done so i can move on to the next phase- staging the mid range/tweeter to its final positioning , finish up their pods and building the enclosure for the dash mounted midbass which may be the most fun of the entire project! Those little guys will either be firing right at the chest, or straight into the windshield to give a horn effect.....remember this midbass setup is supposed to keep up with 2 18s lol i need every bit of help i can get with that.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

JohnL2001 said:


> cure what *ales *me


I think we found out what *AILS *you right there ... sorry, I couldn't resist. 🤣


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

daloudin said:


> I think we found out what *AILS *you right there ... sorry, I couldn't resist. 🤣


Thanks, i mustve been thinking about a cold one.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

No updates
“Bessie” is in the shop and had to stay over the weekend which really put a damper on my plans.
At some point this week or weekend I will get back to partition wall fabrication and wiring up/fabricating the amp rack hopefully!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

daloudin said:


> I think we found out what *AILS *you right there ... sorry, I couldn't resist. 🤣


i noticed somewhere in this thread i believe you said ported would take more power to get moving, something to the effect of 3000 watts wow, i will only have the 1500 watts at 2 ohms.

Im wondering if i turn this into a ported box, would the output actually go down because of the "box" and the need for more juice, and im kind of thinking yes but no because of the added +3ish db so i need expert advice on this one sir. im on the fence.

IF I GO PORTED, it will be about 20 cubic ft after displacement of subs, bracing etc, and tuned around 28hz maybe a little lower because i already get a nasty bump at 40hz and that tuning would have a hump at 35 that i probably dont need.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

20ft3 = BP6P or TH.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

BP1Fanatic said:


> 20ft3 = BP6P or TH.


im not exactly sure what this means.
Band pass maybe 6th order I’m guessing 

nah doing ported, bad experiences with bandpass aside from the accidental one I created already here it’s pretty good but of course as always with a bandpass it has limited frequency response.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

BP1Fanatic said:


> 20ft3 = BP6P or TH.


Oh you mean I’ll be building myself into a 6th order then lol yes I guess but curiosity leads to success on occasion so I’ll try anything.

possibly tuned horn on th? Lol

I’m really stumped here.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

JohnL2001 said:


> i noticed somewhere in this thread i believe you said ported would take more power to get moving, something to the effect of 3000 watts wow, i will only have the 1500 watts at 2 ohms.
> 
> Im wondering if i turn this into a ported box, would the output actually go down because of the "box" and the need for more juice, and im kind of thinking yes but no because of the added +3ish db so i need expert advice on this one sir. im on the fence.
> 
> IF I GO PORTED, it will be about 20 cubic ft after displacement of subs, bracing etc, and tuned around 28hz maybe a little lower because i already get a nasty bump at 40hz and that tuning would have a hump at 35 that i probably dont need.


TH is Tapped Horn BTW but the HT18v3 is not really a Compression Style Sub and the last thing you need is to try and start building one of those...

Anyway, Ported loses output vs IB since the box provides cone control down to the tuning frequency and then you lose all the output below tuning cause the cone unloads from the enclosure and moves without making hardly any sound which means you have to run a 20Hz HP Filter to keep from damaging the Sub. So you gain output due to the porting down to where the IB slope comes in and then the IB has more output below that frequency. This is what that looks like without cabin gain:









Then what happens with cabin gain:









So you get this huge peak right in the "meat" of bass guitar and kick drum but without any of the supporting sub-harmonics and virtually none of the synthesized bass in the lower 20s or teens. More down to tuning and then nothing after about 1/2 octave below tuning.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

It was a nice thought , but i was thinking last night i kinda just wanna stick with the setup as is now anyway. Why complicate things.
And this graph just put the final nail in that coffin lol

That was the bad part of not being able to touch this project for around 2 weeks, coming up with "better" ideas from all the extra time i had to think and rethink.

Thanks ! thinks ! "word play on the former ales i had"


daloudin said:


> TH is Tapped Horn BTW but the HT18v3 is not really a Compression Style Sub and the last thing you need is to try and start building one of those...
> 
> Anyway, Ported loses output vs IB since the box provides cone control down to the tuning frequency and then you lose all the output below tuning cause the cone unloads from the enclosure and moves without making hardly any sound which means you have to run a 20Hz HP Filter to keep from damaging the Sub. So you gain output due to the porting down to where the IB slope comes in and then the IB has more output below that frequency. This is what that looks like without cabin gain:
> View attachment 342512
> ...


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

daloudin said:


> I think we found out what *AILS *you right there ... sorry, I couldn't resist. 🤣





JohnL2001 said:


> Thanks, i mustve been thinking about a cold one.


Ale's what cures me.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Grinder said:


> Ale's what cures me.


I don’t even drink! But from that I guess it seems so.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

JohnL2001 said:


> I don’t even drink! But from that I guess it seems so.


I do enjoy a beer or two on occasion. It's been quite a long time though...


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

So I’m finally getting around to more fabrication on the baffle for my subwoofers.

2x4s will be wood glued and screwed in from the front so as to pull the two pieces together rather than to tack a 2x4 onto the rear of the baffle, I felt this would be stronger. I’m using 4” decking screws.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Every third 2x4 I take a 4” screw into from the rear back towards the first 2x4 to make sure they get solidified to each other.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Halfway through this part and I can tell you I seriously doubt the 18s will flex the baffle ever again.

knocking on one side sounds like I’m knocking on concrete the other sounds like……well knocking on 1.5” of mixed materials!

looks do not matter at this point, because once I’m all the way across and my side pieces are in it all gets sanded down and fiber filled/bondo and I hope to throw some nice curvatures into the mix- possibly resembling something professionally built .

I will have to use a reciprocating saw to recut my holes but I do have the advantage of having the baffle as a guide, I will even get a round over started while cutting with the “sawzall” onto the back to keep from smothering the subwoofers with 3.5” of material surrounding the basket/cone it will need it.

then finish that round over off with a sander most likely.

all screws so far have been strategically placed so when I cut out my holes they keep they’re strength in the areas around the subwoofers and the center of the baffle and to keep me from having to cut through a 4” decking screw because that’s just no fun at all!

the scraps from this will be used to glue/screw in my bottom and top mounting locations for riv nuts/bolts ,nuts,washers. And most likely the sides will follow the same pattern.
I need this extra solid with the longer (taller) span of the van vs a trunk baffle.
I’m hoping to get some extra sound out of the subs with a baffle that I think will be strong, before they sounded great but would move my baffle at least 1/2” with every stroke of the subwoofer at 20hz- even bolted in . Lol


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Grinder said:


> I do enjoy a beer or two on occasion. It's been quite a long time though...


I kind of wish I could, I used to! But now it seems I am allergic.
I feel like a dumpster fire for a week after a sixer or one small glass of whiskey. It’s just not worth it anymore 😂


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

JohnL2001 said:


> Halfway through this part and I can tell you I seriously doubt the 18s will flex the baffle ever again.
> 
> knocking on one side sounds like I’m knocking on concrete the other sounds like……well knocking on 1.5” of mixed materials!
> 
> ...


They make load leveling air shocks for those vans with a remote schrader valve - you're gonna need some extra load capacity once this is all done...


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

daloudin said:


> They make load leveling air shocks for those vans with a remote schrader valve - you're gonna need some extra load capacity once this is all done...


 This was going to weigh (way) a ton anyway, side door shelving and slide out cabinets on ball bearing drawer glides in the rear door were going to be quite heavy.

Pine 2x4s are quite light though so we will see and if it comes to that then it goes back to the mechanic for an upgrade!

Right at the moment im considering ADDING even more as a manifold to the outside and a duct underneath the van instead of the backwave going to all of my shelving/tools/parts also , so if i do i bet thats gonna help lol

also, im kind of wondering if my baffle wasnt acting as a giant speaker before haha, maybe i should have solidly mounted the subwoofers and let the baffle free float ....might have been the easier route!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Finishing up the supports, screws all around the important parts, by the time I was finished I noticed I had a few that were proud of themselves and had to go across and flatten things out so the top piece would fit…. That wasn’t fun in the corners I had to get in there with a hammer and chisel.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

After straightening those out I was able to fab up a not so perfect piece for the crown then EVERYTHING got joined together with wood glue and screws.
The Top plate of this wall had to be driven in with a sledgehammer much like all the other parts were, notice the entire wall so far has been that tight and at least somewhat exact.

I used the exact same method of one screw every third (edit: 2nd or middle) 2x4 on center to attach them to the front two 3/4” baffle pieces so I basically have probably 10 4x4 posts as bracing for the baffle I dunno I lost count of how many 2x4s went into the rear- possibly 12? (Just counted 30 2x4s so the equivalent of 15 4x4 posts to be exact)

It SHOULD be as one solid piece now.

that took a long time so I didn’t get around to the footplates or roof plates for bolting the baffle in but I assure you it doesn’t need the bolts at this point .

I have decided to use my car for a while to work out of, so I can move this along faster so expect almost daily updates from here on out if I can keep from burn out.

even the most fun thing can become a chore at some point.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

BP6P = 6th order parallel tuned.

BP6S = 6th order series tuned = Tapped Horn (TH), Tapped Quarter Wave Tube/Pipe (or straight flare TH), Tapped Tapered Quarter Wave Pipe/Tube (negative flare TH), Paraflex (TH with compression chamber and alternate port exit).


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

BP1Fanatic said:


> BP6P = 6th order parallel tuned.
> 
> BP6S = 6th order series tuned = Tapped Horn (TH), Tapped Quarter Wave Tube/Pipe (or straight flare TH), Tapped Tapered Quarter Wave Pipe/Tube (negative flare TH), Paraflex (TH with compression chamber and alternate port exit).


Just didn’t recognize the short hand

I’ve never used anything Aside from sealed or ported for simplicity although I would like to build these if I had time to tinker with it (because I’ve attempted a bp6s before and it turned out like dog poo as I hear they need constant adjustment or someone with lots of experience.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Couldn’t sit on the couch, had to go back out and do something so I started on the bolt down cleats for the baffle in a rough shape.

That’s it for today though, maybe I’ll tell myself I’m allowing the glue to dry on them.


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## HandyLGCA (12 mo ago)

So from about a 20+ year custom carpentry perspective, those cutouts are going to be the most labor intensive portion of your build yet. If you’re going to use a sawzall, then use a corded one with the most aggressive blade you can find, not the gardening blades but the most aggressive before those. I would say use a plunge router with a guide bushing or a bearing and use the baffle as a guide but you’d need a super long bit to get that deep and might even be better off transferring the marked cutout to the other side and going both ways. 
im going to think about this for a while and see if I can come up with a better idea. Going sawzall then finish with router may be it, but something about it feels like there’s a quicker and cleaner method.


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## HandyLGCA (12 mo ago)

10-1/4 skill saw (makita 40volt xgt comes to mind) plunge cut an octagon, then shave it with the sawzall, then plunge router straight or spiral bit with a bottom bearing to finish it off.


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

I’m thinking measure a circle 2.25” inside the driver cutout, then drill through each 2x4 with a long 1/4” bit, and then use a >2 1/4” deep, 2” hole saw from each side (using the pilot hole as a guide) to remove most of the material. Sounds like a lot of work but should go pretty fast.

then use a long top bearing flush trim bit to clean it up, as much as possible, and either hit it from the other side with a bottom bearing bit or just use a jigsaw.

then probably clean it up from the back side with a 45 degree chamfer bit.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

I would start with the 4-5" hole saw on your drill to get most of the meat from around the edge. Cut holes with a 3/8" space between edges and take your time. The cleaner and straighter the hole, the less headache. Then all you have to do is cut the remaining spindles down to semi-flush and pull out the 120grit disc


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

I appreciate all the ideas , you guys are awesome.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Another idea, if you want to salvage as much material as possible and use a sawzall
Find the center (vert and horiz measurements).

Tap a pencil-sized hole on the center

String measure from a pencil in the hole to another pencil (tied together by the string) that runs even with the i.d. of the sub hole

Go to the side with all the 2x4's, insert pencil #1 in the center hole and draw your circle

Drill a starter hole for the sawzall blade

Homemade compass


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Is your baffle/wall getting bored now, too?


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Grinder said:


> Is your baffle/wall getting bored now, too?


its about to get BORED. 

So much grammar play in this thread.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

to be honest guys ill probably just use the recip saw with the right blade for the job, but i may also build a specialized tool for cutting huge deep circles, it is within my abilities to do so.

Ive built just about anything you can think of short of a skyscraper lol. And i do mean I as in just me not hiring it out or having much help at all (complete houses from using heavy equipment to grade the dirt to the last shingle,extremely intracate concrete forming, plumbing of all kinds yes even ****ter systems, electrical,hvac, refrigeration, etc etc etc (keep in mind im in my 40s and im not bragging because my way of learning these things was all more trial and error to see what DID NOT work before actually becoming proficient with the jobs- boy o boy you should have seen some of my early attempts lol )

building the specialized tool- a steel bar with a center bolt to chuck up into a large drill (have to breakout the dewalt full size hammer drill- it has optional non hammer function) and adjustable bolts on both ends that have been cut to a sharp point comes to mind....but im not even sure its needed.

This baffle is way overboard for whats needed and im fully aware of that, but i always go overboard, and a lot of times its just as ridiculous as can be but i do it anyway on certain projects.


As someone else here has said before, excess often leads to success, no matter what were talking about. You can start off with the best , or you can add on later, or if were talking parts- pay a little now pay a lot later comes to mind haha.

I do what i can, and when i mess up i admit it and start over or repair....but i think were gonna be good to go on this one.

And honestly in my opinion the templates for making this wall fit into the complicated area it had to go in , making sure every piece sealed closed without it looking like one of those damn SPL competitors with spray foam hanging out all over was the most labor intensive part of this build.

its all downhill from here i think. in a good way! I never brag on an accomplishment if i can help it, because it often bites you in the butt before you can say oops...but i think its gonna be ok.

Again i do appreciate all the wonderful ideas, it got the wheels turning for sure.

Now i have to take myself to work unfortunately, its a shame , you would think these kids would be able to get jobs and feed themselves at this point in time with all the tech out nowadays..


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

well go figure, ive been driving the car for work so i could work on the van in the evenings without needing to unload tools and equipment-and so far this week ive got home from work on average around 8 pm so no time to work on it and it looks as though thats going to be the case today and friday as well probably!

cant complain too much though i mean after all i have to pay for all this crap and my bills somehow. See you guys saturday, MAYBE !


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Wow sorry about the same pic over and over I’m figuring out how to insert full image via thumbnails 

no problems besides dewalt blades tend to dull quickly so far so I’ve asked the wife to bring home the expensive Lenox blades.

cutout looks like something from a rotary engine lol but I just needed to be able to see my angle on the blade for the final cut which obviously has to be angled enough to allow proper breathing for the subs.

this and a couple other small things maybe all I get to do this weekend since I promised the kids I would take them somewhere this weekend but damn it THIS is getting done at the very least!


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

I vote you keep the cutouts as they are 🤣


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> I vote you keep the cutouts as they are 🤣


Might have a detrimental effect or I might!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Slapping a 3 pound sledge on the center of the sub cutouts results in the sledge bouncing back at me I tried to post video while I’m waiting on blades just for grins but no go.

don’t think I’ll see any flex or reverberated sounds out of it but I’m sure everyone here could’ve told me that with this absurd setup.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Since your blades dull quick, drill out holes along the perimeter (circumference? Its too early for me) of your cutout area. Space them a few inches apart so there is less material to cut


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Letting the recip saw cool off 😂 

took a few extra minutes but got my hole cut.

5 minutes from now I’ll be on to the angle cut then the bolt hole area and MAYBE even subwoofer brace.

doubt I’ll make it that far in such a little time though.


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## rhoderage (7 mo ago)

Go big or go home... I'm really enjoying this build!


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Why is your wall giving me flashbacks to the oldschool wooden playgrounds that last 30+years 🤣

The best kind of engineering is over-engineering especially when you basically have 2 pneumatic rams hanging on the wall


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Starting to chamfer the back of the baffle but obviously I need meat for the screws/bolts left so I just started cutting and ended up here.

looks a bit odd to me since the subs are 6 spoke basket but hey it’s what came to mind.

now, THIS part is labor intensive since there’s not exactly a router bit that would do a 4+” chamfer,well there may be…but you would need a monster router to chuck that thing and the bit cost a ton alone so I’ll make due with everything I have available to me already.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

There isn't a router bit, but there IS a drill bit









Eazypower Rotary Drum Rasp, 4 in., 1 pcs. 30453 | Zoro


Order Eazypower Rotary Drum Rasp, 4 in., 1 pcs., 30453 at Zoro.com. Great prices & free shipping on orders over $50 when you sign in or sign up for an account.




www.zoro.com













Eazypower 30452 Rotary Drum Rasp With 1/4" Shank (1-Pack), 3" 30452 | Zoro


Order Eazypower 30452 Rotary Drum Rasp With 1/4" Shank (1-Pack), 3", 30452 at Zoro.com. Great prices & free shipping on orders over $50 when you sign in or sign up for an account.




www.zoro.com





Now that the work is done.....


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> There isn't a router bit, but there IS a drill bit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 lol I wouldn’t have bought it anyway most likely

fact is it didn’t need to be perfect because it all gets covered in resin/bondo anyway, but those are cool.

may thin the screw hole areas not sure

also I learned I had an oscillating tool that I’d forgotten about so the next one may look better from the start instead of having to go back and fix accidents because the majority got trimmed out completely with a sawzall.

it’s just like those guys that make statues from trees with a chain saw only they know what they’re doing

EDIT: also, a manifold will probably make its way over these subwoofers….. the shelving I’m putting in may take up too much room and change the tuning so much it becomes necessary, I guess I won’t know until it’s all in so I’m leaving enough space between it all for a manifold.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

You always need another tool! ......just ask the snap-on guy.....

As long as it gets the job done. I've done wonders with belt and palm sanders after a ROUGH initial-shape. Like you said though, bondo and resin.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> You always need another tool! ......just ask the snap-on guy.....
> 
> As long as it gets the job done. I've done wonders with belt and palm sanders after a ROUGH initial-shape. Like you said though, bondo and resin.


this is true! Can’t have too many tools


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Off work tomorrow after basically pulling a double today

fing glorious! I’m sure I’ll get like you know,get some holes cut or something lol


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Finally getting back around to the van.

almost ish ready for filler but not quite.

filled the voids between the 2x4s with thin project dowels from lowes, used a LIGHT amount of spray foam at the very top to be sure no air is leaking by(going to be covered by the rebuilt headliner anyway.

cutting chamfers and smoothing them out but a few of them didn’t want to play ball so they get fiber filler to be reshaped, in fact only the chamfer is somewhat shaped I haven’t really shaped the leftover material for the screw/bolt “meat” yet as you can see.

oh and I tried a few different things for cutting the chamfers but just ended up right back where i started I guess I’m a glutton for punishment. But to say that any of you were wrong About trying different tools or methods wouldn’t be giving credit where credit is due because I’m sure this COULD have been a lot easier but as stated….I’m a glutton.

overall, the project is moving too slow but I can’t rush it either ….I need my van back in service but don’t care to take shortcuts. I could probably not worry about the chamfer appearance since they’re getting covered anyway but then I would feel I half assed it and that may effect my mental state for the entire rest of the project and I can’t have that.

so I’ll continue on even though I know it’s unnecessary and tedious.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Those cutouts look cool as h3ll!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

BP1Fanatic said:


> Those cutouts look cool as h3ll!


Thank you

it’s getting where I want it to be !


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Seeing how this thread is about a work van which I’m probably going to show the shelving of because it’s part of this build, how about some “man toys” 😝 ….I’ve picked up some decent equipment lately , probably my favorite of all are these tools in the box here.

a set of testo manifolds, temp probes and Bluetooth thermohygrometers and a few odds and ends.
Refrigeration tools.

I can tell the health of your refrigeration system from a Bluetooth app and watch an evacuation while sitting in my van working on something else… or listening to sweet ass sounding acoustic guitar tracks …whatever.

pretty neat compared to my old analog manifolds!

edit: I must have taken my meds twice that day because now I wish I had used common sense and put the fittings smushed down into and not cut out of the foam.

[email protected]$k me , you see how I probably need time to think about things? Lol it’s a good thing this van is taking longer than expected.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Cool (A/C)!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

daloudin said:


> They make load leveling air shocks for those vans with a remote schrader valve - you're gonna need some extra load capacity once this is all done...


Heres a question for your engineering brain!

First off, i realize this could have been avoided if i had just not built my wall in the wrong location but were past the point of no return.

So anyway, in hvac we use something called a fresh air intake which is sensitive to changing pressures in a home or business, mostly business (someone turns on a huge range hood with 2000 cfm and to balance air loads you need a damper that senses that change in pressure to bring fresh air in because of the tightness of building envelopes now days)

Could this be applied successfully in an auto sound application such as mine in your opinion?

obviously i would have to find the proper spring tension that would open at a certain spl level- which would mean a manual non electric duct to the outside atmosphere custom built but i dont think that would be a problem, and as far as the noise/weather related problems i have a way to do that as well i suppose. (air pressure rushing out wont allow any rain etc to come in plus the obvious hydrophobic mesh filters etc)

im also wondering how doing the same or similar with the back wave would effect sound, although not needed probably but i can figure that out by just simply opening the doors. 

Yes this could have been a more simple process, but im not a simple guy i guess i enjoy a nice big PITA.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

The clear one is most likely what you'd want or want to reverse engineer for your idea


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> View attachment 345102
> View attachment 345104
> View attachment 345103
> 
> ...


Only one problem , it would have to go both directions bro lol


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> View attachment 345102
> View attachment 345104
> View attachment 345103
> 
> ...


Also on a sad note, looks like everyone ghosted me because I said I can build something 😂 

well chit!


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

🤣🤣 its all good, no worries, you're in my world now. Trust me, i'm a professional. I rig stuff at work all the time. 🤣🤣

Use 2 in opposite directions.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> 🤣🤣 its all good, no worries, you're in my world now. Trust me, i'm a professional. I rig stuff at work all the time. 🤣🤣
> 
> Use 2 in opposite directions.


You’ll have to understand my sense of humor, it’s an odd one. I was only partially serious with this idea because most likely I’ll be able to take up that tiny bit of slack between 40-50 hz with the windows up with eq applied and a couple of small tricks.
I guess I was just trying to show there’s more than one way to skin this cat….the laws of acoustics be damned.
It WOULD theoretically work !
If I did it I would build my own beneath the amp rack and make it custom sized to approximate the amount the window needs to be down to get the subs really singing loud- but I don’t think it’s needed since I have the dsp and more than enough power to manipulate those subs in infinite baffle I believe.
They are BARELY out of the ballpark to play 80hz the way I want it played (just punchy not loud) 

when people say sound quality like there is a set way something should sound I disagree , sound quality is in the ear of the beholder imo.

unless your competing I guess!


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Don't worry brother, i'm as out of the box as you. One of my main sayings is: "there is ALWAYS a loophole."
How do you think i knew almost exactly what you were talking about? 🤣 
My dad's friends when i was growing up (changed my first sparkplug at 6, btw) were oldschool hotrodders, customizers and restorers - taught me to understand and acknowledge the conventional thought and then how to twist it. 
I work at a hardware store and tell people i'm not certified in anything but i can just about rebuild their house, car and almost anything else they throw my way. If i don't have the actual part in stock i'll build them the part they need out of what i DO have in stock (which is about 75%of the time) just so they don't have to drive 15min away to home depot.
Ex: a good pcv catch can for my motor runs $2-300, i spent less than $50 on hose, fittings and a husky air/water separator and have the same quality product


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

JohnL2001 said:


> Heres a question for your engineering brain!
> 
> First off, i realize this could have been avoided if i had just not built my wall in the wrong location but were past the point of no return.
> 
> ...


Covid hit us last week - been in the bed and my brain more foggy than usual.

I'm familiar with makeup air as the room I work in has such a setup (self contained storm center with a commercial kitchen.) But, unfortunately, you can't use pressure to manipulate acoustics unless you have a very specific SPL requirement. You see volume = Sound PRESSURE Level so as the volume goes up so does the pressure, any such device that was defined by pressure would have drastically different effects at different frequencies and volume levels.

What you might want is an aperiodic membrane that's tuned to the frequency you need. But before we go discussing an AP Membrane you have to understand that it will alter the resonant frequency of the "enclosure" not tune the enclosure to make it work better at one frequency. But in order to build one you have to have the ability to accurately measure an impedance sweep of the driver in a sealed enclosure - then build the membrane - measure again and continue to adjust the density of the membrane to suit. Sounds easy enough but then if you crack a window in the van it becomes useless since you just changed the resonant frequency of the "enclosure" and the AP Membrane may cause more harm than good. An AP Membrane lowers the impedance peak of the driver giving you an easier load for the amplifier to drive and more adjustability. This will give you a flatter overall response but not necessarily help with the 80Hz region you've mentioned which, simply put, gets hard to do in a huge enclosure configuration due to the physics involved.

The good news is that, compared to the lower octaves, the 80Hz region is easily boosted via DSP to get the response you need - there's no need to overcomplicate a pressure transducer with a dump gate...


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> Don't worry brother, i'm as out of the box as you. One of my main sayings is: "there is ALWAYS a loophole."
> How do you think i knew almost exactly what you were talking about? 🤣
> My dad's friends when i was growing up (changed my first sparkplug at 6, btw) were oldschool hotrodders, customizers and restorers - taught me to understand and acknowledge the conventional thought and then how to twist it.
> I work at a hardware store and tell people i'm not certified in anything but i can just about rebuild their house, car and almost anything else they throw my way. If i don't have the actual part in stock i'll build them the part they need out of what i DO have in stock (which is about 75%of the time) just so they don't have to drive 15min away to home depot.
> ...


Nice!
I don’t always customize and try oddball things but with audio in particular yes of course because I’ve already done two twelves sealed and quite honestly it’s gotten boring and paying top of the line prices thinking it will sound THAT MUCH better is retarded. 😂 

for instance , the amount of money spent on a set of brand I won’t name but the 3” mid range cost like 1500-2k for a set

…..sorry there’s not a snowballs chance in hell they sound that good imo.

now, on the other hand a tool where the cost is on snap on level im a sucker for unless it’s a throwawayone time use tool. I’ve found some tools price does matter .

maybe one day I’ll see the use in a 1500 dollar set of mid range speakers I dunno!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

daloudin said:


> Covid hit us last week - been in the bed and my brain more foggy than usual.
> 
> I'm familiar with makeup air as the room I work in has such a setup (self contained storm center with a commercial kitchen.) But, unfortunately, you can't use pressure to manipulate acoustics unless you have a very specific SPL requirement. You see volume = Sound PRESSURE Level so as the volume goes up so does the pressure, any such device that was defined by pressure would have drastically different effects at different frequencies and volume levels.
> 
> ...


First of all I hope your all feeling better now!

ok,I may not be understanding (typical)

mid i crack a window 40-80hz just got significantly louder so why would the same amount of open air via another hole the same size not do the same?
Theoretically speaking- I don’t think I’ll actually be doing this.

btw to be honest 80hz is not needed either honestly as I’ve said before I’m only using these up to 50hz and 40 is strong I’ll just need to shave some off the low end at 20-30 to match it to 40 then maybe boost the rest- I won’t know these things until I’m finished. This is all just theoretical non sense honestly.

I’m sure you just explained why, but I don’t get it my friend. I’m sure it’s to do with wavelengths but I’d like to test that theory. I’m a tinkerer.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

An open hole would do the same thing but a pressure regulated trap is not the same thing as a hole. Plus you're talking about an oscillating pressure wave so the "flap" would be oscillating open and closed as well. 

Opening a window or cutting a hole are putting you inside that bandpass box and the size of the hole or window opening will dictate the tuning frequency creating a peak. 

You've got the right idea you just can't use pressure to automate the opening since it's an oscillating pressure transducer creating both vacuum and pressure 40-60x a second. Makeup air in HVAC is based on static pressure that remains constant. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

daloudin said:


> An open hole would do the same thing but a pressure regulated trap is not the same thing as a hole. Plus you're talking about an oscillating pressure wave so the "flap" would be oscillating open and closed as well.
> 
> Opening a window or cutting a hole are putting you inside that bandpass box and the size of the hole or window opening will dictate the tuning frequency creating a peak.
> 
> ...


I’ll keep this in mind as a saving point for my project if the dsp cannot make it happen!
The “hole” may need to be a permanent fixture much like the holes people cut for ib through the floor then I’m fine with that.

also there’s the other end of the equation which I would not rule out, how would you think enclosing the rear of this baffle would effect the bandwidth? I’m thinking it would but maybe not in a favorable way because I truly like the sound of ib even though I don’t truly have ib lol
I mean turning into sealed/ported but one thing I wouldn’t like is I may not have the power to push them to full excursion in an actual enclosure so it’s looking like it may hurt more than help or just end up with the same output.
mine is a total mix and match enclosure-ish “thing” …..but it’s coming along! Need to update the thread actually!

The truth is I’m fairly happy with it as is but options are great.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Yeah I forgot my current 4th order bandpass would go to a 6th order……which wouldn’t be too bad if done right….so measure right with the window down when it sounds the best lol

non scientific way of doing this I am absolutely sure of it but it would work.
Thanks for jogging my memory in another thread daloudin


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Oh my project is ugly! I can smell the paint from here however!
Rust oleum BED LINER (damned auto correct changed it twice) from a can for texture and then paint actually. Getting closer one painfully slow step at a time.
And no I don’t bother cleaning up for pics or too much period - the sawdust protects everything 😂


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

After everything I’ve been through with this. And as much as I like infinite baffle …. I this is going ported as long as I can turn the side enclosing pieces into nice looking ports while still maintaining enough room to get a side storage cabinet into the side door openings.

so a change of pace for a moment as soon as I get a chance.

the only thing about ported I don’t like is (and I want to say it was daloudin who showed me this) but anyway, power requirements would be higher than my amp will produce to get the subs to full extension.
However, in the current state , the bandwidth is so narrow it just seems ported would be the way to go.

this has rolled around in my headthe entire time I just didn’t say a lot about it that’s why I am trying to “finish out “ my baffle to look nice (lexan viewing window)


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

JohnL2001 said:


> After everything I’ve been through with this. And as much as I like infinite baffle …. I this is going ported as long as I can turn the side enclosing pieces into nice looking ports while still maintaining enough room to get a side storage cabinet into the side door openings.
> 
> so a change of pace for a moment as soon as I get a chance.
> 
> ...


You won't need to get full excursion in a ported box, the cone barely moves at the tuning frequency while the air in the port does all the work.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

ckirocz28 said:


> You won't need to get full excursion in a ported box, the cone barely moves at the tuning frequency while the air in the port does all the work.


right, but at 50-60hz i may not be able to keep up. We will see though. i also looked at dual horn enclosures lol but im thinking i dont have the room if even talking about the horn mouth. It may be ideal though! so if anyone out here designs horn enclosures and thinks they can make it fit into my dimensions cough it up and ill build it!

Im actually wondering where daloudin came up with his numbers for 3300 watts to xmax on the ported enclosure recommendations he gave, i cant seem to find that popping up anywhere in WINisd myself but i am a newish user.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

JohnL2001 said:


> right, but at 50-60hz i may not be able to keep up. We will see though. i also looked at dual horn enclosures lol but im thinking i dont have the room if even talking about the horn mouth. It may be ideal though! so if anyone out here designs horn enclosures and thinks they can make it fit into my dimensions cough it up and ill build it!
> 
> Im actually wondering where daloudin came up with his numbers for 3300 watts to xmax on the ported enclosure recommendations he gave, i cant seem to find that popping up anywhere in WINisd myself but i am a newish user.


Ok - I hate to make any assumptions but what exactly is it that your trying to accomplish by converting to ported?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Duh, efficiency and SPL!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

daloudin said:


> Ok - I hate to make any assumptions but what exactly is it that your trying to accomplish by converting to ported?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk



a more useable bandwidth at sq listening levels to blend with the rest of the system easier with the windows up with any luck
hopefully it will play that same bandwidth at all volumes a tad better since the cabin is no longer the box ( I know it’s wavelength dependant but if you can elaborate on how to defeat that?)
*More spl (when I want it loud) since I’m already building such a thick baffle
* a more predictable response because I’m not sure how much room my cabinetry for my tools/parts will take up of that leftover 2/3 of the cargo area and my subwoofers are going to respond different with every square inch removed …..

Now, I COULD size the cabinetry to create whatever cubic ft I want in the cargo area for the subs to see, but let’s be honest I still want to let the subs loose and blow someone’s hair around with authority on occasion with 6 db of gain at ~6db of gain at tuning.

also I just like building things I’m not going to lie.

****>having said these things, if you would PLEASE give me your input on the best way to go about these goals within what I have now that would be great. I await your response with enthusiasm my friend. 😆

seriously man I’m stuck with a wall in the wrong location and it was a lack of thought from the beginning about how IB works, and how I could have put them in the rear floor and used a sound through partition wall but it’s too late now! 😆


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Also I would like to point out that a few weeks ago when I heard them setup on 1.5” of baffle board and semi sealed from the cargo area (I’m sitting in the cabin)they killed 35&40hz windows up but down it was monstrous at these frequencies , enough spl and wind to tear a sheet of notebook paper if you held it to the window right …..

yet at 50 hz I remember being unimpressed and at 10-30 , to me, it seemed nowhere near as loud as say 40hz.

so I’m trying to flatten that out but not by losing any but by gaining in thenull or missing areas, and I kind of figure that a tuned box with more spl at 20hz should do this.

remember the baffle was flexing like mad so I may have been losing my 10-30hz output there also, won’t happen because of the baffle this time being overly 💪 strong and this time there is no air leakage whatsoever.
Also remember 50hz being a tad weak is ok because I have more than enough backup at 50hz with (2) 7” midbass and (4) 5.25” midbass all using enclosures . Probably not going to have a problem blending that and I’ve played them they are louder with the wall at 50hz so no cancellation unless the subs do it and I figure I can tune this out. I guess it’s the low positioning of the 7” under the seat coupled with less air pressure than the 18s allowing this response from them?

I may be on to something and I may be dead wrong….please give your thoughts guys.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

BP1Fanatic said:


> Duh, efficiency and SPL!


Well, yes kind of, to flatten things out a bit but not by dsp, i want to save that for fine tuning the sub to midbass area.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

The 40Hz peak is due to the tiny listening area compared to the enclosure size. 

Porting below that resonant peak won't change that peak. You "might" be able to get a flatter response but the problem in having such a small listening room is that frequencies below that 40Hz peak don't have enough room to propagate fully and combined with losing energy due to flex and absorption you might not notice any difference by going ported. 

This was the whole point of the discussion between building the wall versus using the entire interior as the listening space. When installing huge infrasonic ported enclosures in home theater we often ran into a problem where we had too much output for the space and the only option was to knock down a wall. 

You don't have that option and instrumented testing of DSP tuning to try and get rid of the 40Hz peak would be the next step before you go cutting another hole in that wall. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

JohnL2001 said:


> right, but at 50-60hz i may not be able to keep up. We will see though. i also looked at dual horn enclosures lol but im thinking i dont have the room if even talking about the horn mouth. It may be ideal though! so if anyone out here designs horn enclosures and thinks they can make it fit into my dimensions cough it up and ill build it!
> 
> Im actually wondering where daloudin came up with his numbers for 3300 watts to xmax on the ported enclosure recommendations he gave, i cant seem to find that popping up anywhere in WINisd myself but i am a newish user.


"1/f^2 is correct - every time you halve frequency, excursion increases by 4 for the same SPL." Quoted from diyAudio forums.




__





Cone movement vs. frequency


I am looking for the mathematical relationship between cone movement versus frequency. Lets say if a subwoofer was held in free-air and the amplitude was constant and the frequency was swept from 100 Hertz down, does the cone move more as the frequency is lowered?




www.diyaudio.com





You won't need full excursion at 60 Hz to maintain SPL, you'll need 1/4 of the excursion seen at 30 Hz.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

daloudin said:


> The 40Hz peak is due to the tiny listening area compared to the enclosure size.
> 
> Porting below that resonant peak won't change that peak. You "might" be able to get a flatter response but the problem in having such a small listening room is that frequencies below that 40Hz peak don't have enough room to propagate fully and combined with losing energy due to flex and absorption you might not notice any difference by going ported.
> 
> ...


So no there is no defeating the cancellation. 😂 

we will see! And if it can’t happen, like I said I’ve learned a lot here so the next setup will be as far to the rear and through the floor same subs.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

ckirocz28 said:


> "1/f^2 is correct - every time you halve frequency, excursion increases by 4 for the same SPL." Quoted from diyAudio forums.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i was Overthinking things


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

started on the sail panels yesterday, pics soon. Im not a fan of dumbo ears ::snicker::but that is how it sounded best so im doing it


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Sail panels taking shape, this part is going smooth considering.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Tomorrow they get filler and finish 
Long night tonight !


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

As for these "a pillar" pods
i have two issues to deal with, first the tweeter mount for the driver side has gotten pushed back somewhere along the way so i will need to deal with this and straighten its face up to where the tweeter points true....but the mid and tweeter will all 4 be aimed perfectly to hit a quarter size spot in the center of the back wall once this is finished.

2 -They obviously seem a bit big lol like having a bell in my a pillars! , and they have no need for an enclosure since it is a sealed back mid and a tweeter.
I think im going to trim them down where the red circle has been drawn on and take that all the way back and see where i end up as far as being able to push the entire assembly back towards the door and a pillar. Most people would put mids off axis if they are this big i do realize this..... but the detail is so fine on axis i hate to lose that..... however compromises sometimes must be made. Another listening session is probably in order since i have not been able to decide if i want to cross the tweeters lower and see if they can give the same level of detail with some eq so that i can flatten these monster mid range into the window a good bit to get rid of that monstrosity hanging in the corner but whatever works for sound is what will happen here. In fact, im curious how they would sound without that gigantic baffle attached or if they can even be taken apart although i think i remember reading where someone did this exact thing and said the sound did not change.

I actually prefer to get to this stage and then adjust because the tongue depressor craft sticks and fiberglass jelly make it very easy to cut and manipulate things no matter if you need to adjust an angle,downsize, or just flat out cut the front off and turn it sideways - i know it seems counterintuitive but its just my way of doing things. explore all options hands on.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

tongue depressors ftw


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> tongue depressors ftw


once the fiberglass jelly goes over them you could throw them against a brick wall and nothing will happen to them....kinda neat and makes building pillars a lot easier.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

🤣 dad had me making shims with a bandsaw for forming when i was a kid, then i discovered the depressors and convinced him to stop making the shims using a time/cost argument....left out the part i hated standing there eyeballing 3/16" widths and calculating kerf

Fiberglass cloth isn't used for audio or is that more of a final stage thing?


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> 🤣 dad had me making shims with a bandsaw for forming when i was a kid, then i discovered the depressors and convinced him to stop making the shims using a time/cost argument....left out the part i hated standing there eyeballing 3/16" widths and calculating kerf
> 
> Fiberglass cloth isn't used for audio or is that more of a final stage thing?


I just use whatever is easiest , fastest and strongest. Cloth takes forever in my opinion but i dont do this on the daily so im no expert. i would certainly say cloth isnt a finishing thing that woul dbe the beginning then i assume you would use filler over that.....but i HAVE done a few sets of these and its just not necessary unless your trying to contain back pressure which im not on this one.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Another thing to read up on.....
I've used cloth/resin for hull repairs and i remember it was big pre-2010 for building boxes and formed mounts/interior trim pieces but i had to kinda take a 10yr hiatus from car stuff before now. Best way to not spend money is keep my nose out of modification-land


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> 🤣 dad had me making shims with a bandsaw for forming when i was a kid, then i discovered the depressors and convinced him to stop making the shims using a time/cost argument....left out the part i hated standing there eyeballing 3/16" widths and calculating kerf
> 
> Fiberglass cloth isn't used for audio or is that more of a final stage thing?


as a matter of fact, cloth really isnt necessary period.....you can build the pillars from depressors and then milkshake the inside (bondo and fiberglass resin 50/50 mixture) and then that is heavy and strong and guaranteed sealed tight from the inside....so no...cloth is not necessary but if i were trying to mold something perfectly i would lay the cloth on top of whatever im making the mold to fit and then apply the resin over top of that-only problem there is its messy and youll be there forever trying to keep the cloth down on your chip brush stroke but you MUST continue to stroke the resin into the cloth to make sure it saturates completely with no bubbles.....just an all around hassle ! but if it had to be done.....


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> Another thing to read up on.....
> I've used cloth/resin for hull repairs and i remember it was big pre-2010 for building boxes and formed mounts/interior trim pieces but i had to kinda take a 10yr hiatus from car stuff before now. Best way to not spend money is keep my nose out of modification-land


lol yeah, as i sit here about to put more mileage on my personal car for business use, i occasionally think to myself what life would be like if i had just put all this stuff in factory locations and used the dsp to manipulate the sound......but i just dont see it being anywhere near as good. 

drums should sound like they come from the center of the stage, and of course a dsp can help with that but a good midbass IN THE CENTER of the stage physically (or very near that) will REALLY help with that. 
Vocals should sound like they come from the center of the stage, ................you get where im going with this. I want a combo that physically puts the band where they should be playing before the dsp is even involved.

Point is, i just want to experience physical location and then top that off with the magic of dsp. If i find the results were fruitless comparitively speaking then i wont do that again but i doubt thats going to happen, and if it does so be it....its a hobby and learning the hard way is sometimes the best way! (and sometimes youre just left feeling like an overworked fool lol)


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

another neat trick i like to pull is using florists foam to form things and then go over that with the jelly or cloth and resin but youll have to protect the foam from the resin. It does make forming things easy though. alright enough of that i gotta go to work , karens fridge has to be fixed pronto!


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

JohnL2001 said:


> ....its a hobby and learning the hard way is sometimes the best way! (and sometimes youre just left feeling like an overworked fool lol)


Get out of my head 🤣


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Had to rethink the sail panels, wasn’t happy with them and started cutting and during a nice heated moment of many curse words I decided to go back to the drawing board.

hate them off axis because they don’t sound as good- hate them on axis because it’s way too big of a speaker to mount on axis in a car- so I split it down the middle hoping the dsp can make up for it.

major pita


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Well after about what seems like 10 different variations I finally found something that gets the midrange on at least something like a 60 degree angle and the tweeters on axis - and both sides actually fit without the dash or other things interfering . I ran into that problem with the last try and the try before and after that - one side of the dash is of course a bit different from the other so it took an act of congress to get the same look and angles.

tweeters should easily play low enough to compensate for the 60degree angle of the mids where I believe they drop off around 4,000 hz so no problem.

a bit close up to the listener but I guess there are always trade offs plus the seats recline a good bit and I take full advantage of that.

looks Awful at the moment but looks can be deceiving ….anyway finally onto puzzle piecing the gaps and back on track to finish them out once more.
Considering this is the most important thing to get right I think it’s worth some extra effort.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Now time for opinions, I’m struggling a bit trying to find the best design.
Choose one or give your opinion on what to do here please community.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Sorry for the double photos , not quite used to posting photos still!


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

I like the style where it follows the swoop of the pillar. Not the cutout under the speaker or the plate-looking one. Swoopy ftw


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> I like the style where it follows the swoop of the pillar. Not the cutout under the speaker or the plate-looking one. Swoopy ftw


Swoopy looks good to me too but maybe it should be a bit less swoopy I dunno 😂


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Maybe start the top of the swoop so it follows the outside curve of the woofer just a skitch before swooping back out


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Top of pic 1 and bottom of pic 8. I like the extra bracing for the drivers.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Thanks guys
The other 10 people I asked that are not car audio fanatics said “I see no difference” lol

nice to see someone pays Attention to detail!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

I truly hate to do this, but it would “look” better and imaging would work out better.

( ok by imaging I mean placement but the result may be worse with comb filtering or something I dunno, not an audio engineer)
However a tweeter under a midrange as far as old school audio wisdom has taught me ….well conventional wisdom… that’s a huge no no! But damn does it look better in a fictional drawing or is it just me?
Really trying to put ideas on “paper” before doing anymore work on these because I’m kind of sick of playing in hot glue for hours.

think I’ll throw myself to the wolves and put this one out there for the mainstream on this forum to pick away at my dead bones to see the responses and go from there.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

THAT does look better! U prolly rite about the imaging too.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Why no for the tweeter under the woofer?


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> Why no for the tweeter under the woofer?


From what I understand of it , the frequencies get all screwed up.

honestly man I would just google it, don’t get me to lying lol I just remember it saying it was a no go in any normal circumstance.


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## Vx220 (Nov 30, 2015)

IIRC, at the crossover region of a mid and tweet there is distortion (I want to say lobing?) that is directed toward the mid? So, if your speakers are higher than your head, you'd have the tweeters under the mid so the distortion is pushed up away from your ears?

If your speakers are lower than your head, tweeter on top, again so the distortion is pushed away from the ears?


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

Mount the tweeter coaxially


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

I am going to start the staging of the entire front end over with this thread in mind.

it occurs to me after reading the thread, that I am forcing the sound not letting the cabin dictate speaker placement.

the factory locations were the dash and the doors, I’m willing to bet that my front stage would sound better in the factory dash location and I am positive I can make this happen, again we have not tried the kicks which I’ve always glossed over because of leg interference but …..









Speaker aiming tips by cmusic


This is a tutorial on how to initially aim speakers for two seat listeners. This procedure I use may take only a few hours or could last a few months. I would say it is one of the most critical steps because it determines the sound quality’s foundation of the finished system. I begin with...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

pwnt by pat said:


> Mount the tweeter coaxially


Going to look at large coaxials and try that.

never thought I would say that.


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

If you switched to the xt25 without a flange you could coaxially mount that to the midrange flange. The xt19 would probably be better if you can still get a flange less version of that

Edit: OT19NC00-04

Or if you want to stay 25mm these are on eBay








Pair alpine vifa XT25 28MM dome Nd magnet car audio hifi tweeter 4ohm100W | eBay


This model was OEM from Vifa, (Vifa XT25 series). They are the models that Alpine stoped to produce. At this price level we bet it's one of the best car tweeters. Sounds soft ,warm and detaily. Showing the dust cap and cone without net cover.



www.ebay.com


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

pwnt by pat said:


> If you switched to the xt25 without a flange you could coaxially mount that to the midrange flange. The xt19 would probably be better if you can still get a flange less version of that
> 
> Edit: OT19NC00-04
> 
> ...


how about an 8" plus coaxial, wideband, something that will play pretty much the entire bandwidth? it would make life easier i think. recommendations?


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

I don't think an 8 will fit in the sail panels. I think the traditional mid bass/midrange/tweeter combo works. I have not heard a dash mounted mid range and tweeters in the sails, but it seems most people that have them like them. I wouldn't hesitate to put the midranges in the upper doors and tweeters in the sails, if you didn't want to built a pillars.


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

I missed the fact that you dont have traditional sail panels. In this case I would just built either traditional pillars, or use a wide band to or small quality coaxial, but keep that all in the pillars and not built pretend sails.

Guys used to run the hat l3 without tweeters just fine. I bet the gs25 could do it as well.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

pwnt by pat said:


> I don't think an 8 will fit in the sail panels. I think the traditional mid bass/midrange/tweeter combo works. I have not heard a dash mounted mid range and tweeters in the sails, but it seems most people that have them like them. I wouldn't hesitate to put the midranges in the upper doors and tweeters in the sails, if you didn't want to built a pillars.


lol nah it definately wouldnt, im talking about the dash. 

I have tons of room there, im at the point now where im thinking about trying to use the reflection from the windshield only and hiding or muffling the direct sound.-possibly. ....At this point im not sure if a wide dispersion speaker or a narrow dispersion speaker would be best for this type of dash location design as im reading , people tend to go both ways here. There is enough room that i can just about do what i want within reason, so im looking at lots of differernt ways to acheive staging . This is only one of them. 

PLD, reflections etc i am looking into, pld seems to only be best in the kicks but i dont like the idea of the sound being crippled by my or passenger legs so im thinking dash mounted. 

Speak to me on this lol!


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

If you're building for one seat and using a dsp, pld left to right isn't as important. The distance between drivers on each side matters more.

Edit: for example: the distance from your ear to the left tweeter vs left midrange.

Looking at your pillars a you could build a mtm with something like the aura whispers. Or use 3 whispers. Using the small array will help kill verticaly induced reflections while keeping the speakers wide on the dash, which will help with width. 









Home


Aurasound NSW2-326-8AT Whisper 2" Extended Range Speaker Driver 8 OhmThe Aurasound "Whisper" NSW2-326-8A 2" extended range driver is packed with next-gen speaker technology. An NRT™ neodymium radial magnet motor submerses the 32.6 mm, underhung voice coil in magnetic flux for supreme control...




www.parts-express.com






I personally am not a fan of large flange drivers in the car. They're too hard to package.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

pwnt by pat said:


> If you're building for one seat and using a dsp, pld left to right isn't as important. The distance between drivers on each side matters more.
> 
> Edit: for example: the distance from your ear to the left tweeter vs left midrange.
> 
> ...


I’m thinking that I want a 2 seat build.
Never have been a fan of the stage being centered for just one occupant.

thanks for all the info so far! I learn something new daily from you guys.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Stereo imaging inside of a vehicle is the craziest thing, you probably can’t tell but those domes are facing the windshield toed in just a tad bit….right up against the windshield.

this was the best position for a phantom image I found in any fashion on he dashboard. Moved them up, down, every degree on the wheel horizontal and vertical and I knew it when I had it.

then the tweeters would not follow suit lol of course .

but what I found incredibly odd was that the tweeters would ruin the stereo image period no matter what orientation you put them in without using a bit of time alignment while the mid range needed no time alignment for center stage accuracy.
Just to be sure I tried a pair of dome tweeters that I had and got the same result besides they were quite a bit more quiet but still ruined the image no matter.

quite insane .

and yeah, that’s how they will be installed……I’ve said that 1” times but I’m serious this time 😂


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

You'll probably want to read what Harmon Kardon/JBL researchers have to say about that in the PDF link below.

Here is the shorter version


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

seafish said:


> You'll probably want to read what Harmon Kardon/JBL researchers have to say about that in the PDF link below.
> 
> Here is the shorter version
> View attachment 347451


I appreciate the literature, but when I said I tried every angle I meant it.

Every vehicle is going to have a different rake to the windshield and the dashboard, every speaker is a bit different, I believe they know what they’re doing but in my case the center image goes away if I were to follow what they are saying here .

sometimes the best way to get something done is just stop reading about it and do it I guess.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

seafish said:


> You'll probably want to read what Harmon Kardon/JBL researchers have to say about that in the PDF link below.
> 
> Here is the shorter version
> View attachment 347451


I didn’t mean for that to come off rude 

what I’m trying to say is I think the curvature of the windshield combined with the wide dispersion of a dome midrange has a sweet spot where rules may be able to be bent somehow , and/or the direct sound wave is meeting in a triangle on the mid dash area while the other waves that are directly up against the windshield are doing something that’s not too awful bad, others are making it to my ear somehow within an acceptable time along with the tweeters on axis alignment pulling it in or the illusion anyway….
I will tweak it with their advice again and report back however.

run on sentence for certain, apologies. This can be improved upon, I’m sure and that would be very good.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

seafish said:


> You'll probably want to read what Harmon Kardon/JBL researchers have to say about that in the PDF link below.
> 
> Here is the shorter version
> View attachment 347451


I tried this once again, center image became weak. I think it may be the way the windshield bulges out in the center since it is not flat and has quite a protrusion near center....probably a good 2-4" of additional outward bulge near center almost creating an extra large built in horn ( or probably more like a waveguide) if you can picture the wave being forced a certain way not allowed to move forward or to the a pillar, I’m picturing how air would flow and rightly so since we’re dealing with nothing more than air movement, and what I’m envisioning is basically nothing more than forcing air into a certain spot, and velocity may even play a factor in negating unwanted effects for all I know, or the fact that a sound wave is a certain length at a certain frequency and I should be able to tell you what frequency sounds the best and when I match them side to side at the right rate I get a perfect center (like a dsp) I’m completely out there with theory right now apparently but who knows …..now I’m imagining a piece that goes around the driver, maybe built into the enclosure of course, this would be a waveguide that I don’t have to worry about being that big since the windshield is doing the work mainly- sealing it off not allowing the air to go anywhere but center to add on to the list of things to try- one thing is for certain, if i stick my head up close to the mid range on either left or right sides i am still drawn into center looking for the vocals/ other centered sounds in the recording- and where the hell they are coming from if not from this speaker lol it is a great illusion of sound imo.
If they image this good with no dsp i think its a keeper, it may not be for everyone ill just have to do it and then comparitively listen to other setups to see how close i got to what is expected of an sq/sql car these days.yet it is good enough for me that i am fairly exstatic (sp?)

Nonetheless i believe the actual finished plan may be implemented this weekend. (which means ill start on the dash "box") and the tweeter pods , and the midbass up there - and the dash mounted midbass playing from somewhere in the neighborhood of 1000hz to 80hz may need this angle (The page you linkded me to) so of course i will have to test those now which will be hard since i cant really tell what they will sound like in a sealed box until ive built it,yet i cannot build it until i know how they should be oriented.

I guess they will have to be tested "free air" or i can cut the tiny test boxes i had tried before down, however the tiny test boxes i used before suggested that straight on - on a 0* axis was the best most impactful way to orient them .......however im sure i can fiddle with it and make the two work on the same plane (mid range and mid bass) and possibly even end up with a net gain in the midbass department which would be adding on to an already heavy midbass coming from the dash area so they may even have to be cut back a lot once everything is in and im tuning.

never know until you try, and with this vehicle i have tried over and over even when i thought i had a good enough sound i second guessed it and tried something different....but....i truly think this is the one.

Things are starting to get fun now!

Take that with a grain of salt, ive been married 3 times lol


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

This will come In handy for me within the next few days somehow I feel


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Is this Possibly a tuned enclosure for this dome? Dome overall diameter is 5.71”
Interesting.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

seafish said:


> You'll probably want to read what Harmon Kardon/JBL researchers have to say about that in the PDF link below.
> 
> Here is the shorter version
> View attachment 347451


alright, i tested the midbass using them up to 1000hz and what i find is that the researchers here are absolutely correct. 

Except for one thing! they are using cone speakers not dome speakers. My cone speakers sound best like this but it does nothing much for stereo imaging out of the norm , my domes sound better flipped and image better flipped towards the windshield. 

However, it is quickly becoming a problem to orient all of the speakers the way they image best so i am going to have to either build something extremely special to do this, or im going to have to live with the midrange not imaging as well as it could and mount it flat on the same plane as the midbass. 

Guess it depends on how i feel in the next few days as to what i do!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

I was supposed to get most of my custom dashboard built today

instead I had the joy of installing a new ac compressor on this van, sometimes life’s a *****! I said it!

another day

p.s. we almost hit 100* here today, I’m sunburnt and pissy.
Tomorrow will probably be 45* 😂


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Right! The same type of weather happens in Ohio.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

BP1Fanatic said:


> Right! The same type of weather happens in Ohio.


As I predicted it is cloudy and probably 65 here today!

This air conditioner is blowing ice cubes out of the vents right now because of that

so much for a true test run lol 😂


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Actually had to put my sweater on for my morning cigarette. Lake effect weather is awesome


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Back to the fun in the sun (of course the sun came out as soon as I started 😂)

so I’m building an enclosure for the dashboard midbass

these ( Dayton nd140-8) are meant for ported applications and have a very low spl/efficiency rating this is why I doubled them up.

they need 8 cubic ft per pair sealed and 2.6 cubes per pair ported for an f3 of around 33 hz or so but….. that’s not the intention here!

i tried them in a true infinite baffle and as expected it lowered the peak far beyond mid bass territory, I tried them in .103 cubic ft sealed boxes and the peak is around 200hz….perfect!

so , I should have plenty of room here for 4 of them and it should create enough midbass down to 80-100hz that I’ll find myself turning these little guys down a lot ….but , I’d rather have too much and need to attenuate than too little and have to stress them to get them to play the notes I’m looking for.

So I’m building around the dash with super thin 1/4” plywood because it will flex with the contours and all I need to do is insert the bracing to create my dash shape.

there are a lot of other things I’ll have to do, like build the enclosure to support the dash covering you see up front of the dash because the old plastic supports are so brittle they’ve fallen apart but that’s nothing some time with the materials I already knew I would need can’t fix….hot glue, small strips of properly shaped 1/4” ply or popsicle sticks, fiberglass jelly, epoxy resin, etc etc until we have the proper shape then I’ll go over the outside with fiberglass mat and resin and the inside with “milkshake” to strengthen things up .

one thing I already know that’s going to be fun here and that is getting it in and out , once it’s sturdy 😂 gonna have to be careful with the cuts around objects!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Before someone says it, I only left the material that would block your view on the sides until I know exactly how the midrange will be oriented 😂


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

> they need 8 cubic ft per pair sealed


I feel like that’s a lot for a pair of 5.25’s…


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

SQ_Bronco said:


> I feel like that’s a lot for a pair of 5.25’s…


I do as well, but winisd says so lol of course bassbox pro says a lot less and I’ve checked the integrity of the numbers on winisd and they pass….I bet a parameter is off somehow but still passes.

no matter though I’ve listened to them in different ways so I know what they do in what my friend….glad I did!


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Do you use Hornresp?


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

BP1Fanatic said:


> Do you use Hornresp?


Nah I’ve opened it and attempted to use it - but thought the layout was a bit too complicated and just headed right back to winisd


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Winisd is GARBAGE compared to HR.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Looking sick bro


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

BP1Fanatic said:


> Winisd is GARBAGE compared to HR.


Never had an issue with it but I’ve just learned to use it properly on the last couple of enclosure builds.

truth is, on something like what I’m working on here it’s not needed.

you get the amount of air space you can get, and run with it. Your never going to hear the same sound from two different sides anyway since your in a car.

subwoofers, yeah I may use it to it’s full potential!

ill take a crack at hornresp again sometime soon, I have another build after this one to do! This time it’s no budget build lol

EDIT: speaking of which, I’ll buy the most expensive equipment my frugal mind will allow me to buy for my personal vehicle build- then compare it to my work vehicles budget build.

i think this would be fun, but I also feel it’s going to piss me off when the expensive equipment gets dogged by the cheap parts express stuff. (this is a joke that im hoping doesnt come true lol) Then again its all about the install and the van is perfect minus the wall ive built.

it will be a lesson learned one way or the other so I’m cool with it if for only that reason!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> Looking sick bro


Thank you !


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Gonna try bouncing the waves off the windshield altogether….

best I can come up with …without blocking my view and/or having a huge hump on my pillar/ sail.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)




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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Views from the driver headrest, the only thing that comes above the windshield wipers are the mid range and that just BARELY comes up. I think the only thing i would hit because of that might be a fly....hopefully not setting myself up for a horrible accident by saying that.


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## NW JLUR (Dec 3, 2018)

I’m looking forward to seeing what else you do. Have you thought of taking the A pillar out trim off to see if there’s a little more room to move the speakers over?


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Random pics in no particular order, but it’s in, finally adjusted the angles pretty much spot on ….and now maybe a test listen then go back to glueing wood in place.
The top of the dash will certainly have to come off when it’s time to fiberglass everything in place because it was literally impossible to not have such a tight fit I may well have to trim the existing dash cover a hair here and there…but it’s coming along…

mid range is being aimed because they have a response pretty high up in the frequency range and I’m just not real sure how high I’m taking them or how they’ll do at this point since I’ve gone from one position to another so many times - just ready to be done although if I had more time I may enjoy doing this.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

NW JLUR said:


> I’m looking forward to seeing what else you do. Have you thought of taking the A pillar out trim off to see if there’s a little more room to move the speakers over?


Considered that but I want to keep it, I’m leaving room around the pillar in case I want to bounce the tweeters as well (they will have to go there) but most likely they will be glued to the a pillar near the mid range.

edit: wow that was confusing, I mean they will probably be just above the midrange .

anyway, given the angle and size of the mid range it’s gonna be hard to scoot it in any but if I get that far after listening I may attempt it.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Driver side looks a skitch higher than the passenger but its looking real good


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> Driver side looks a skitch higher than the passenger but its looking real good


Could be, the interior isn’t shaped perfect from the factory 😂 

it’s as good as it can be although I may give it another going over once I get the interest to work on it back… main thing is does it sound good?
Answer is I dunno I guess I should go hook it all up and listen, wouldn’t wanna put anymore time into it if it sounds like trash 🗑


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Bah, thats half the fun! Finish it all up perfect and THEN see if it sounds good 🤣🤣🤣
I know someone who's done that on a few occasions 😇


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Mid range sounds brilliant, great stereo imaging, 2.5khz and 4khz need some definite cut on the eq 😜 but it’ll work. (Reflections doing what they do I assume)

didn’t even try the little midbass speakers out there’s no point since obviously they’re not enclosed yet.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

NW JLUR said:


> I’m looking forward to seeing what else you do. Have you thought of taking the A pillar out trim off to see if there’s a little more room to move the speakers over?


since ive had the time to sleep on it, ill probably end up trying to make this happen and cut kind of a waveguide into the a pillar. Thanks for the push, i was getting tired and lazy yesterday!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> Driver side looks a skitch higher than the passenger but its looking real good


I think i see what your talking about now, maybe that one brace on the passenger side that looks like its drooping inward away from the windshield? didnt even realize it yesterday/last night in person....i guess its good i took photos and have stared at them.

Its cool though, ill throw some heat on that area with the heat gun and then adjust it and hold it tight until it reforms into the right shape. Thats the good part about using hot glue to form things, nothing is permanent! but its messy , you end up with what looks like cobwebs everywhere at the end of the day.

Thanks for the advice bro.

EDIT: i think maybe ill cut a couple of more braces, cut them at the angle i want the mid bass to go in at and mount them right beside those little midbass, and this would make everything that much more sturdy while giving me a guide for the angles on the midbass. much easier.

This **** is all trial and error, if ive adjusted things once ive adjusted 100 times, and i would expect nothing less honestly.

Only problem......hope it doesnt get so hot on that windshield while im at work today that it melts the hot glue, good thing its getting cooler outside.😆


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Trial and error is how we learn. For me the worst thing that can happen to my wallet is i get bored, because i'm gonna reverse engineer something and figure out how to make it better.
At some point when you're getting frustrated or burnt out on a project just tap into your stubborn side and say "screw this, i'm gonna get the fracking thing done no matter what."

The warm and fuzzies hit harder when you push through the frustrations


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Just been listening to the domes and the under seat mid bass running as sub bass today (decided to drive it to work)

there is a center channel speaker in there somewhere I just can’t see it , I am VERY surprised at how good this mounting position turned out (aside from 2k-4K being super obnoxious- just turn that part down it’s amplified with a few more watts apparently 😂)


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## abbispa (Feb 24, 2015)

I am about to start on my sprinter van. Your an inspiration.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

abbispa said:


> I am about to start on my sprinter van. Your an inspiration.


I wish you the best of luck my friend and I will look out for your build!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Ok so I’m going to drive this van again today but before I do I’m going to try rearranging some things temporarily

mid range in near the same location yet flat without aiming, turn the high pass off (in case anyone was wondering these are basically a wide band and I don’t think you need a tweeter really- I was somehow getting away with a 250hz high pass yesterday) and apply a bandpass on them to attenuate the frequencies above 3k because well…that’s the only choice on the amplifier and I’ve yet to install the dsp

also going to temp mount the tweeter on axis and let it handle 3k and up

mid bass gets the same 250hz lpf

I was missing roughly from 250hz to 1000hz yesterday, I should be able to somewhat tighten that bandwidth loss up like this.

but will it sound better?

I dunno that’s the point of the exercise because if it does then my job just became much easier since I would be able to flush mount every speaker on my dash board.
Let the game begin!

EDIT: the crossover points were wrong here, like i went back and edited later i somehow got the midrange to accept a 250hz high pass even though they are rated to have a point of cut off at 400 and most people use a 500-1000 with them. no matter though, my mid bass will pick them up somewhere in there and they have roughly the same open/airy tonality.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Ok….didn’t mess with mid range angle at all, did temp mount the tweeters in the a pillar. Obviously changed my crossover points

results are even better than the last test, wider stage, more detail, no harsh 2500-4000hz issues.

noticed some things, think I’ve found the sweet spots….next on the list is tear it all out and start again with this in mind.

i realize most people only put they’re triumphs and finished products on here…..not me…. I want every screw up and problem documented for myself and anyone else .

although I’m not so sure I would read through all these posts to find them if I were someone else 😂


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

FINALLY! The final locations found late last night. Its beautiful ....well technically right now its ugly as sin  but the positioning is beautiful,hardly any protrustion of any of the components into my view, no early reflections of the tweeter, no huge hump around what im assuming must have been higher up than 2500-4k , probably the 6000 hz area or so since i didnt consider the fact that sounds can be elusive and i was running them full range just about (like a kick drum-the location can be identified as the dash if your mid range is good enough yet its not physically there only the higher notes leading your ear there), and the imaging is pinpoint- 5 wine glass test passes with flying colors in my opinion which is something ive always struggled with.

stage is wide to the side view mirrors and deep with the vocals and center channel seeming to come from the hood not the dash.
I approve, it may not be iasca finalist great but I approve and one day I’ll get to a show and see how it stacks up.

Front stage has finally found its position but i had to do some seriously LONG listening tests to find the proper location....not that i mind since i love the music.

Now that theres a plan, and i have a 3 day weekend again im going to modify this "thing" on my dashboard to suit my needs, i started building this without a concrete plan in place but it is now set in stone.

Time to build.  (yet again)🙇‍♂️


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Started to modify and finish the “woodwork” as far as I can while the enclosure was in place… which is important I think so that I don’t go “out of bounds” with anything once it’s out to be filled/sanded/ shaped/ finished.

got my front boundary put in, got my old speaker rings out, got my side stacks in to form the side walls with up to the a pillars.

added 2 new braces to keep the part that goes against the windshield a little more snug in the corners.

started cutting a template of the windshield contour for my box top…. I’m hoping to be able to use one single piece all the way across to make sure everything is at the same angles. 😂

it MAY be impossible, but it never hurts to try.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Now time to take it out and start shaping.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Dam dude...you could go into biz and call it ... "Soundbars4Cars" 😂

Remind me again which drivers go where ??


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

BTW I have been meaning to say that my favorite pic that you posted so far was the one with the drivers temporarily in place and you could see their reflections in the windshield....and the reflections were pointing on axis almost directly at the listening space !!

You can actually use the reflections to help aim the speakers.

on edit-- hmm cant find it now...maybe it was this one--


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

This is not for the faint of heart, not even sure I’m comfortable with it since these dash pieces are so old and brittle I’ve found the outer shell will have to be replaced simply from that alone.
Jesus it’s dirty in there! Perfect time to clean….or replace a heater core…whatever.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Well, it’s out, and I’ve started fiberglass/ fiber fill, fiberglass mat, and look the “milkshake” has already identified a couple of holes and sealed them for me 😂 

love that stuff!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

seafish said:


> BTW I have been meaning to say that my favorite pic that you posted so far was the one with the drivers temporarily in place and you could see their reflections in the windshield....and the reflections were pointing on axis almost directly at the listening space !!
> 
> You can actually use the reflections to help aim the speakers.
> 
> ...


Yeah there’s a lot of using reflections that will be going on with this build.

it is unavoidable to have reflections especially in this van with the shape of the cabin and the glass so I’m going with embracing the reflections.

thing is, I found that the sound changes basically none if the dash drivers are flat or angled (as long as it’s kept below certain frequencies of course) and the tweeters can handle very low frequencies for a tweeter so…. Makes life a bit easier.

i really think the issue of “reflections” making your sound bad is waaayyyy over thought when it comes to car audio. You just need to keep in mind it’s a second source of the same frequencies albeit a bit later and that’s what muddles up the sound…

However, if all you hear is the reflected sound then it is the first source to make it to your ear and the only audible source in my case anyway.

I have reflection type issues with the mid range flat on the dash however I do know where that frequency is that causes it, so simply removing it from the mid range and playing it through the tweeter cures that problem.

I purposely am reflecting the tweeters output actually. From sound testing, firing directly into the side windows gives me a stage with amazing width and no I’ll effects. (It may be the ring radiator having a smaller dispersion pattern allowing this to be done without sounding like trash)

Any way it goes, I don’t have any noticeable problems with reflections believe it or not!

and that is true without using a dsp, so once it goes in I’m sure tuning to minimize problems will be a snap….hopefully.


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

seafish said:


> Dam dude...you could go into biz and call it ... "Soundbars4Cars" 😂
> 
> Remind me again which drivers go where ??


Well I mean that’s where you want your stage - on the dash- so if it wasn’t so difficult I may very well build “soundbars4cars” 

but given the complexity of it….I’ll just stick to appliances! This is not something I would consider an easy job so props to the guys that do this daily!


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

All done


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

i wish my sub was as boss as yours


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## JohnL2001 (Jan 19, 2020)

Forddenial said:


> i wish my sub was as boss as yours


You’ll get it one day be patient lol


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