# Pioneer time alignment question



## HCWLSU101 (Apr 30, 2009)

I am using a pioneer 80 prs and would Like to move the soundstage a little to the left. Should I add or subtract to right speaker values or add or subtract to left speaker values?


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## audiguy (Jul 30, 2007)

To get the image to move left, decrease the time delay on the left or increase it on the right, OR increase the amplitude of the left or decrease the amplitude of the right, OR if it is way right, flip the phase of the right mid and or use a 12db crossover instead of an 18 or 24.

Or some combination thereof.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

The values are the actual distance, just measure and enter the distance to the different speakers and the unit will calculate delay automatically.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Hanatsu said:


> The values are the actual distance, just measure and enter the distance to the different speakers and the unit will calculate delay automatically.


That is the same as higher distance in the Pioneer HU's time alignment is less delay. Less distance is more delay.


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## boom_squid_2 (Jan 29, 2008)

Hanatsu said:


> The values are the actual distance, just measure and enter the distance to the different speakers and the unit will calculate delay automatically.




How accurate is this method? I have a prs800 head unit and when I tried this I wasn't pleased with my stage (center was too much in the left).


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Measuring the distance would give you the center in front of you (if left/right level is set similar, that could still pull it somewhat left or right).

Maybe this will help, quoting myself from my build thread:



wesayso said:


> Well, I tried every method I could find on here .
> 
> At first I tried the auto TA/EQ on the pioneer but it was obvious to me that wouldn't do very well. Auto TA/EQ is nice to learn something but in the end you got to work it out yourself.
> 
> ...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

boom_squid_2 said:


> How accurate is this method? I have a prs800 head unit and when I tried this I wasn't pleased with my stage (center was too much in the left).


You need to fine tune it by ear after that, gives you a good baseline. (( Usually a few cm +/- accuracy. )) 

Staging depends on frequency response as well, in IID range 1-1,5kHz+ you use EQ to center the stage, T/A is used below that. Measure the frequency response and check that the left and right side have equal amplitude.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Wesayso said:


> Measuring the distance would give you the center in front of you (if left/right level is set similar, that could still pull it somewhat left or right).


I usually enter the distance, then just delay the driver side slightly. An 800Hz sine tone works for me


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Hanatsu said:


> I usually enter the distance, then just delay the driver side slightly. An 800Hz sine tone works for me


I chose to change the other side, see my way to long ramble above


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Wesayso said:


> I chose to change the other side, see my way to long ramble above


Can't read it on my phone lol. The quotes disappear for some reason, I'll check it later


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

Wesayso said:


> Measuring the distance would give you the center in front of you (if left/right level is set similar, that could still pull it somewhat left or right).
> 
> Maybe this will help, quoting myself from my build thread:


we-
reading your summary helped me to stabilize my stage because of the level adjustment. i had been adjusting T/A by ear with the level biased to the passenger side by 1-click. then i tried even balance L/R. stage is still wandering / smearing.
today i turned off T/A, adjusted only the balance to center the image as best as possible (wound up being a plus 5 on the passenger side). Then i adjusted the T/A to center the drivers. 
So far so good, not perfect but the best i have been able to achieve since having the P-99 last February. 
I may try to do the measurements to driver's side drivers (left) and then adjust the right T/A distance to center as you suggested. but i'm off to a very nice start.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

avanti1960 said:


> we-
> reading your summary helped me to stabilize my stage because of the level adjustment. i had been adjusting T/A by ear with the level biased to the passenger side by 1-click. then i tried even balance L/R. stage is still wandering / smearing.
> today i turned off T/A, adjusted only the balance to center the image as best as possible (wound up being a plus 5 on the passenger side). Then i adjusted the T/A to center the drivers.
> So far so good, not perfect but the best i have been able to achieve since having the P-99 last February.
> I may try to do the measurements to driver's side drivers (left) and then adjust the right T/A distance to center as you suggested. but i'm off to a very nice start.


Next step would be to adjust your 31 band eq seperately . Playing sine waves at the frequencies your 31 band EQ has and center them seperately if needed. Don't go too wild with that, if you leave it within ~ 2 dB it works very well. To keep tonal accuracy if you adjust left up one click on a seperate band, click the oposite side one click down.

It's nothing new, all stuff that I read on here but might come in handy to have it on one page.

I am jealous of your P99, my EQ adjustments are 2 dB steps and 16 band.

I'd love to see a tuning tutorial from the big boys some day like Bikinpunk, Highly etc... 
My guess is every one uses a slightly different approach, and we can all learn from that, I'm sure.

I've been playing with this for a long time. Instead of buying different gear I started experimenting with what I read on the forums. Slowly but surely I am improving the sound. Still have a lot of ideas to enhance it further but small steps get you there in the long run. 
For instance playing with slopes helped get me more width with my 2 way. I had to fix my tweeter FS peak to be able to do so but that's just a small investment. A little while ago I would have bought another tweeter to try and fix such a thing. Now I am dedicated to work with what I have to get it to sound best.
That's one reason I didn't upgrade to the P99. If you are creative you can do a lot more with less. It just takes time and after all, this is a hobby right?
It was your thread on the XT25 that got me interested to try those. I still have them .


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Wesayso said:


> Next step would be to adjust your 31 band eq seperately . Playing sine waves at the frequencies your 31 band EQ has and center them seperately if needed. Don't go too wild with that, if you leave it within ~ 2 dB it works very well. To keep tonal accuracy if you adjust left up one click on a seperate band, click the oposite side one click down.
> 
> I am jealous of your P99, my EQ adjustments are 2 dB steps and 16 band.
> 
> ...


I'm using a P99 and a Helix P-DSP just for the additional EQ on each driver. Imo, equal amplitude response is often overlooked as less important than T/A. I think EQ is more important, even if we're not sensitive to amplitude differences in ITD-range of our hearing for localization of sound sources, we still hear large irregularities in frequency response which affects imaging. 

There's several ways to T/A. Might try the way you did it in my next car, looks thorough and well executed. 

The way I do it is to individually EQ each driver FLAT at 800Hz (in a 3-way front). All drivers should measure within 0,5dB at 800Hz, after that's done. Put in the measured distance to each driver, the sound is now coming right in front of you (as you would sit in the middle). Since this narrows the width we want the image in center of the dash. I turn off the right side and T/A the drivers to each other (midrange/midbass), quite audible when they are aligned cause it sounds like the tone is coming from the same source. When that's done for both sides, I delay the closest set of speakers by the same amount until the tone is dead center, this is very audible. Normally this is around 10-15cm in reality. On the Pioneer you decrease the distance by that amount on the drivers side.

Note that this works best with individual EQ and measuring equipment. It's quite effective with 3-way fronts. If you use tweeters with shallow slopes they can be T/A:ed with this method as well. Staging actually improved slightly when I did this in a car with a tweeter at 4kHz/6dB. Most tweeters can play 800Hz at a low volume setting, be careful though if you playing through Fs (resonance), not much power is needed to blow them there. This should be done with low resonance tweets, designed to go low. Scan-Speak and Dynaudio have several models designed to be able to reproduce frequencies inside ITD range. (1,6kHz or less)

Normally T/A should be done before EQing imo. You could actually measure the initial impulse with some program like aRTA/WinMLS or something and T/A until the initial impulses coincide. There's a thread about it here I think.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Wesayso said:


> I've been playing with this for a long time. Instead of buying different gear I started experimenting with what I read on the forums. Slowly but surely I am improving the sound. Still have a lot of ideas to enhance it further but small steps get you there in the long run.
> For instance playing with slopes helped get me more width with my 2 way. I had to fix my tweeter FS peak to be able to do so but that's just a small investment. A little while ago I would have bought another tweeter to try and fix such a thing. Now I am dedicated to work with what I have to get it to sound best.
> That's one reason I didn't upgrade to the P99. If you are creative you can do a lot more with less. It just takes time and after all, this is a hobby right?
> It was your thread on the XT25 that got me interested to try those. I still have them .


XT25 is a really nice driver. Completely different sound from most car audio specific drivers I've tried. I've settled on a 6,5kHz/6dB LR filter now. They are 3" within the fullrange drivers in sails now. Yeah, I found a better place so I moved the stuff around again lol. Had to tame the resonance electronically (with EQ). Measured HD-sweeps until it was 50dB below fundamental. Now it's awesome ;=)


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

I just hope the OP reports back after this wave of info with his results


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Hanatsu said:


> XT25 is a really nice driver. Completely different sound from most car audio specific drivers I've tried. I've settled on a 6,5kHz/6dB LR filter now. They are 3" within the fullrange drivers in sails now. Yeah, I found a better place so I moved the stuff around again lol. Had to tame the resonance electronically (with EQ). Measured HD-sweeps until it was 50dB below fundamental. Now it's awesome ;=)


The thing I like about them is that they are capable of very good 3D imaging, almost holographic. They bring chills down my spine sometimes!


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

Wesayso said:


> Next step would be to adjust your 31 band eq seperately . Playing sine waves at the frequencies your 31 band EQ has and center them seperately if needed. Don't go too wild with that, if you leave it within ~ 2 dB it works very well. To keep tonal accuracy if you adjust left up one click on a seperate band, click the oposite side one click down.
> 
> 
> .


i tried this a while ago and it was a disaster for some reason. the image was not very good. i thought it may have to do with cabin reflections in the way some tones just could not be centered- they seem to bounce around like a laser beam reflecting off of mirrors. 
centering off of warble or noise tones may work though. 

yes i agree, it's all in the name of the hobby to get creative and it's fun when you stumble onto something new that really helps- without buying more hardware.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

Hanatsu said:


> I'm using a P99 and a Helix P-DSP just for the additional EQ on each driver. Imo, equal amplitude response is often overlooked as less important than T/A. I think EQ is more important, even if we're not sensitive to amplitude differences in ITD-range of our hearing for localization of sound sources, we still hear large irregularities in frequency response which affects imaging.
> 
> There's several ways to T/A. Might try the way you did it in my next car, looks thorough and well executed.
> 
> ...


do you measure the 800Hz for all of the drivers at the same mic location, e.g. approximately ear level?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

avanti1960 said:


> do you measure the 800Hz for all of the drivers at the same mic location, e.g. approximately ear level?


Yes, same mic location(s). Averaged 6 points at listening position. 2" between each point.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

Hanatsu said:


> I'm using a P99 and a Helix P-DSP just for the additional EQ on each driver. Imo, equal amplitude response is often overlooked as less important than T/A. I think EQ is more important, even if we're not sensitive to amplitude differences in ITD-range of our hearing for localization of sound sources, we still hear large irregularities in frequency response which affects imaging.
> 
> There's several ways to T/A. Might try the way you did it in my next car, looks thorough and well executed.
> 
> ...


using the 800Hz tone really helped to tighten up my stage and it sounds much better as well- although I did not do it exactly as you mentioned. 

I overlapped the drivers, entered the distances. then i used the right midbass as the "datum" for the right speakers, adjusting the time delay on the right midrange (for example) until the tone sounded the loudest (i assumed this means they are in phase at that point) I did the same for the rear passives to the front midbass, etc. 
Then i delayed the left midbass to the right midbass until the tone was centered, then i isolated the left midbass and delayed all left speakers individually to it until the 800Hz sounded the loudest. i have to say at first it sounded very smooth and strange but really nice, the bass was definitely improved. the stage was not completely centered so I isolated the front midbass drivers, played a variety of music and adjusted the left delay until they were centered. then i re-did the 800 hz tone to align the drivers back to the mid. 
then it was the best stage i had ever heard. thanks for suggesting this method. 
is aligning the drivers until the tone is the loudest the way you do it? I did not hear the single source tone as you described, but it did get louder as you increased the delay, then it peaked, the it started to decline, so i set it to the "peak" for each. probably should have used the mic but by ear seemed to be easy to do.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

This method is great to do by ear, the T/A part I mean. The reason I said all drivers needed to EQed equal at 800Hz was because the amplitude differences could change the center. This needs to be measured, it can be hard to tell if it's the EQ or time delay that needs to be changed otherwise. Once the drivers are EQed to have equal response left and right side, it's quite easy to hear the difference when you're time delaying. When you're time adjusting the drivers on one side to each other it should sound as the sound comes from the same point, subjectively it might sound louder actually. Usually when I do it, the tone changes height when it's close to aligned (when you aligning the drivers on one side to each other).


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## BKLYNG (Aug 6, 2014)

how to t/a using the 80prs im trying to center of dashboard im using inches i did my speakers measuements


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

BKLYNG said:


> how to t/a using the 80prs im trying to center of dashboard im using inches i did my speakers measuements


What happened when you entered the measurements?


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## BKLYNG (Aug 6, 2014)

It put it rite in front of me I want it center of dashboard


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## Makky (Nov 15, 2014)

HCWLSU101 said:


> I am using a pioneer 80 prs and would Like to move the soundstage a little to the left. Should I add or subtract to right speaker values or add or subtract to left speaker values?


Use this and check the Pioneer box as Yes. 
Report back with new figures and how the stage is after applying them.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

BKLYNG said:


> It put it rite in front of me I want it center of dashboard


Play only the mids, if it images in front of you, add distance to the far mid till it moves to centre of dash. Next play only the tweets and do the same.


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## BKLYNG (Aug 6, 2014)

okay will do


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sqnut said:


> Play only the mids, if it images in front of you, add distance to the far mid till it moves to centre of dash. Next play only the tweets and do the same.


Good lord I'm sorry, I always trip up between increase / decrease delay and distance, even though I've always run pio gear. To move the image to the right *reduce* the distance on the far mid and tweet.


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## BKLYNG (Aug 6, 2014)

Im out here in the car now now what to do


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

There is a option for inches or cm. Be sure you have the right one chosen.

If you did what sqnut posted and still not working I'm thinking the speaker levels are off. 

Mute the tweet and sub. Try adjusting mid levels with a song that has equal left right vocals. Or turn the TA off and listen for vocals to be at equal volume left/right from the listen position.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

BKLYNG said:


> Im out here in the car now now what to do


Keep adding distance to the far sidespeaker and it should move the image to the right, towards the dash centre.


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