# Imaging



## Broshi (Jun 9, 2012)

I'm extremely satisfied with the performance of my horns (and many others are as well ), but I know I can continue going up from where I am. The stage is set at dash level right now with a decent width. It seems that at extremely loud listening volumes, the recording gets mashed when I am sitting in the car, but clears up when I step out of the car. 

I think I remember from another thread that the farther UNDER the dash you place the bodies, the wider the stage? Also, what would potentially raise my stage a little more as EQ is having a difficult time doing so. Right now my horns are coupled with the edge of the dash on a 2000 Jetta (refer to Req's install).


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

might try playing with xover points and slopes too. with mine I started with the recommended 1300 hz 24db xover point, but I am finding that it sounds alot better around 3khz 6db. stage is wider and imaging is about the same, but sound depth is better. less EQ is required too, since the horn has a bit of a peak around 2.6khz, setting the xover higher and letting the natural roll off of the xover tame the peak.


----------



## Broshi (Jun 9, 2012)

minbari said:


> might try playing with xover points and slopes too. with mine I started with the recommended 1300 hz 24db xover point, but I am finding that it sounds alot better around 3khz 6db. stage is wider and imaging is about the same, but sound depth is better. less EQ is required too, since the horn has a bit of a peak around 2.6khz, setting the xover higher and letting the natural roll off of the xover tame the peak.


I'll most definitely give this a shot. Time is limited for me as I move to New Zealand this Saturday, but I'll be doing the same install on the same car so it wont vary much. I also have never used a RTA. I've been trying to read articles on how, but I'm having a difficult time understanding. I have the software and need a proper mic, but does the use of an RTA substantially help the tuning process?


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

back in the 90s I didnt have the $2000 it took to buy an RTA, so I did all tuning by ear, so it is not absolutely a requirement.

if you have the SW and a decent measurement mic, it can shorten the tuning time. it will get you in the ballpark in minutes instead of hours. it is also very handy to see any large dips or peaks that hearing may have a harder time picking out. Just understand it is a starting point. RTA will get you close, then you have to tune by ear after that.


----------



## Broshi (Jun 9, 2012)

minbari said:


> back in the 90s I didnt have the $2000 it took to buy an RTA, so I did all tuning by ear, so it is not absolutely a requirement.
> 
> if you have the SW and a decent measurement mic, it can shorten the tuning time. it will get you in the ballpark in minutes instead of hours. it is also very handy to see any large dips or peaks that hearing may have a harder time picking out. Just understand it is a starting point. RTA will get you close, then you have to tune by ear after that.


Well I read a thread where a gent tuned his system using isolated tones and the results were astounding, but the EQ curve was atrocious which intrigued me quite a bit. Seems there are a thousand different ways to get good results. As for the physical location of the horns, could the mounting be improved do you think?


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Height of sound stage is directly related to how well the system is imaging. When it is at its best you will not localize to any of the drivers and you will have a sound stage centered at eye level with focused images. As you get it closer to its best you will also develop more depth within the sound stage with layering of the images where some sound closer than others. 

Getting a high sound stage is a function of tuning. You need to start with the basics and work through each step to get it to its best.

Start with level, crossover, and phase before doing any equalization. The next step is working with signal delays, finally you finish up with EQ.

Delays will help to focus images and blend the drivers together through the crossover regions. How you set the delays is determined by single or two seat listening system.

Equalization will help with frequency steering issues and frequency response peaks that are causing localization. How you do the equalization once you get there is directly related to setting up for single seat or for two seat.

Eric


----------



## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

Did an install for an older gentleman,I'm 43,so yes older than me,I had already done his Porsche boxster,Mac head ,jl separates ,xr,4ch Mac amp,sounded really nice dynamic,extended very clean.he was happy so he brought in his favorite car,BMW 5 series,early 2000's, and another Mac head,a Mac d/a(this made a night and day difference),Mac 4ch,jl xr separates,and 3500.00 in custom M.I.T. Cables,RCA,spkr,and digital coax. Fact. Locations on spkrs(frt. drs. And rear deck),when I got it tuned in,holy crap,I've only heard a few comp. cars including the ones I have built that had the width and depth of stage,the depth was unreal,I was using tabla beat science ,a high bit recording,wow I was shocked.the cust. Who was a home audiophile, actually came back and tipped me with a rare jazz recording that had to be special ordered.he loved it.after I left work I hopped in my 2000 civic si,with ID horns, selenium d210ti drivers,6 inch mids in fact. Location,it staged really well,and my setup got close but , not as layered or deep as that BMW .jealous, I was.tuning will do a lot for you,but your system is only as good as the signal you feed it. That Mac d/a had such a high resolution,it really amazed me. Good luck in your quest!


----------



## sinister-kustoms (Jul 22, 2009)

Broshi said:


> Time is limited for me as I move to New Zealand this Saturday


OT, but where are you setting up camp?


----------



## Broshi (Jun 9, 2012)

Eric Stevens said:


> Height of sound stage is directly related to how well the system is imaging. When it is at its best you will not localize to any of the drivers and you will have a sound stage centered at eye level with focused images. As you get it closer to its best you will also develop more depth within the sound stage with layering of the images where some sound closer than others.
> 
> Getting a high sound stage is a function of tuning. You need to start with the basics and work through each step to get it to its best.
> 
> ...


Can never say thanks enough for the input you give on this forum. It's a huge asset to have someone that really knows HLCD give advice to someone new in the scene. I'm going to take it back to square one this time around and mess with the Xover points to see if anything else is more suited. Then I'll proceed to phase and TA. 

I'm looking to set this up for a two seat application due to having a passenger quite often so I should be setting delays to the center of the cockpit? 

I'll also be making a heavy investment in sound deadening and using reticulated foam for the horn bodies and possibly a roundover as Patrick Bateman really has convincing data. Your horn bodies already have a sort of roundover, but do you think I'd see any benefit to extending them? Cheers!



sinister-kustoms said:


> OT, but where are you setting up camp?


Whakatane for now. Located near the BoP. We should meet up sometime!


----------



## sinister-kustoms (Jul 22, 2009)

Broshi said:


> Whakatane for now. Located near the BoP. We should meet up sometime!


Whakatane - Whaka yeah!:laugh:
For sure. I'm about 6 hours south, but head north occasionally. I'll get around to installing my HLCD's one of these days - it'd be good to bounce ideas of someone with experience!
The SQ scene here has pretty much gone to ground now and the SPL scene is...well, your typical drama filled SPL scene, but make sure you sign up on NZICE and introduce yourself. There's still a bunch of die hard guys floating around. It's mostly just a social forum now, but there's a wealth of info there as well from some pretty clued up guys.


----------



## Broshi (Jun 9, 2012)

sinister-kustoms said:


> The SQ scene here has pretty much gone to ground now and the SPL scene is...well, your typical drama filled SPL scene


:uneasy::sad: I hate the SPL scene sometimes... That's really unfortunate. I will most certainly sign up though and will be actively trying to get meets organized with local SQ people. We'll keep in touch for sure!


----------



## Theronh357 (Aug 10, 2013)

Eric Stevens said:


> Height of sound stage is directly related to how well the system is imaging. When it is at its best you will not localize to any of the drivers and you will have a sound stage centered at eye level with focused images. As you get it closer to its best you will also develop more depth within the sound stage with layering of the images where some sound closer than others.
> 
> Getting a high sound stage is a function of tuning. You need to start with the basics and work through each step to get it to its best.
> 
> ...


I'm a noob, in the process of building (what I would consider to be) a pretty decent SQ setup, who's extremely grateful for the info provided in this thread...thanks fellas


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Broshi said:


> :uneasy::sad: I hate the SPL scene sometimes... That's really unfortunate. I will most certainly sign up though and will be actively trying to get meets organized with local SQ people. We'll keep in touch for sure!


I know the feeling. local shop hosts SPL contests weekly all summer. I asked if they had plans for an SQ comp and they said no. had tried it once before and only 2 or 3 people showed up, lol.


----------



## Broshi (Jun 9, 2012)

minbari said:


> I know the feeling. local shop hosts SPL contests weekly all summer. I asked if they had plans for an SQ comp and they said no. had tried it once before and only 2 or 3 people showed up, lol.


Well the thing is that most SPL guys here don't actually do much other than buy big subs, big amps, a big box and a little CLD. If the only thing you have to do to get loud is dump money, that's pretty silly if you ask me. There is one fellow who had four DC 9k amps with DC subs and seven 6.5s in each door. He's the only one in Spokane that has actually done fabrication work to his vehicle and he does 161.4 so that's good. Everyone else is just mid 140s with the standard sub and box... 

Where's the work put into it? Makes me sad.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

ya, the owner of that same shop has 4 of those kicker warhorse 10kw amps into (8) 18" IA wardens. does about 163db. pretty sure he doesnt have mids at all, at least you cant hear them, lol.

honestly, if I was doing SPL, I would bother with mids either. you will never get midrange over 130db no matter how many or how much power you give them. not my cup of tea, but whatever you like I guess.


----------



## Broshi (Jun 9, 2012)

minbari said:


> ya, the owner of that same shop has 4 of those kicker warhorse 10kw amps into (8) 18" IA wardens. does about 163db. pretty sure he doesnt have mids at all, at least you cant hear them, lol.
> 
> honestly, if I was doing SPL, I would bother with mids either. you will never get midrange over 130db no matter how many or how much power you give them. not my cup of tea, but whatever you like I guess.


Well sounding loud is fun, but I'm honestly more of a sound quality kind of guy. If you can make a five speaker stereo system have the ability to play music as if it were being played live in front of you, that's phenomenal. It takes a lot of work, thought and skill to do something like that. That's where the quality in audio is for me.


----------



## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

totally agree. I have a simple 3-way system and the mids and horns always surprise me with how good they sound. even with only speakers in front of me(other than subs), it does sound like it is coming from everywhere.


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Broshi said:


> Can never say thanks enough for the input you give on this forum. It's a huge asset to have someone that really knows HLCD give advice to someone new in the scene. I'm going to take it back to square one this time around and mess with the Xover points to see if anything else is more suited. Then I'll proceed to phase and TA.
> 
> I'm looking to set this up for a two seat application due to having a passenger quite often so I should be setting delays to the center of the cockpit?
> 
> ...


You are welcome.

For two seat I set the time alignment as follows. After getting the center as focused as possible and stage as high as possible using crossover, level and phase.

Mute everything except the left horn and midbass and listen to a spoken voice or solo singer and delay the midbass driver until the sound is as high as possible. Copy this to the right side. After I copy the setting to right side I unmute everything and listen focus and position of center from both seats, often times I will end up using delay as a phase adjustment at this stage to improve things try adding .15 to .5 ms of delay just to the left side.

Then delay the subwoofer until it is best anchored up front. If you have a simple two way front plus subwoofer do the subwoofer delay and phase only from the drivers seat, you will never get it totaly right from both seats without a dedicated midbass playing 60/70 to 180/200.

Warning on subwoofer is if you have any panel rattles or other problems it will draw your attention to the rear no matter what you do.

Eric


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Eric Stevens said:


> You are welcome.
> 
> For two seat I set the time alignment as follows. After getting the center as focused as possible and stage as high as possible using crossover, level and phase.
> 
> ...



Unless you put the sub in the front of the car with the rest of the speaker where it belongs


----------



## Broshi (Jun 9, 2012)

Eric Stevens said:


> You are welcome.
> 
> For two seat I set the time alignment as follows. After getting the center as focused as possible and stage as high as possible using crossover, level and phase.
> 
> ...


Awesome will for sure be doing this! I really need to sit down and write all of the information up on paper that has been tossed around this forum. What works, what doesn't work (also add my own experiences). I think it's time I start to contribute as opposed to ask for assistance. 



Mic10is said:


> Unless you put the sub in the front of the car with the rest of the speaker where it belongs


If only that were possible! Lol



*ON a side note:* Are there ANY sound quality oriented Facebook groups? I've been searching hard, but I can't seem to find any... I'd like to get into one if I could.


----------

