# Horn Driver & 10" Pro Mid Suggestions?



## CSAudioNY (Jun 22, 2014)

Few years ago I was running Selenium D2500Ti-Nd drivers on Image Dynamics mini bodies and I was quite happy with them. They were very similar to the ID Ultra driver. It's been a few years sense I've done anything audio related, hence my post. The D2500Ti-Nd driver appears to be discontinued and no longer available. I see a ton of new compression drivers on the market that were not available 3 or 4 years ago when I last looked. I was wondering what everyone is running and suggests? B&C DE500 used to be pretty popular but I'm interested in hearing what everyone has to say. They will be mounted on a pair of Eric Stevens bodies. I'm also looking for a set of 10" pro audio mids to pair with the HLCD. Like the horn drivers, there seem to be a bunch of new options avaliable and I feel a bit out of touch. I would prefer a neo driver for weight and mounting/clearance reasons. I have used the B&C 10NW64 few times in the past and been happy with them as well. I may go with another pair unless there something new out that I should look into. Thanks in advance to anyone who contributes.


----------



## fenis (Apr 12, 2008)

What's your budget and do you have the mini or full size horn bodies?

The Beyma CD10Nd sound unreal but are $200 each. They are great for crossing over low (800hz) with authority. Also the 10FE200 are great value for money and not too big/deep and have a high qts which is good for higher midbass sensitivity and if you like a rising bass response. Otherwise if you want something with higher xmax the Beyma 10G40 is highly regarded by Eric (6mm of genuine xmax I think) but they are not neo and they are deeper than the B&C 10NW64.

I'm thinking of upgrading from my faitals to something with more xmax. How do the 10NW64's sound and what xo are they running?


----------



## CSAudioNY (Jun 22, 2014)

fenis said:


> What's your budget and do you have the mini or full size horn bodies?
> 
> The Beyma CD10Nd sound unreal but are $200 each. They are great for crossing over low (800hz) with authority. Also the 10FE200 are great value for money and not too big/deep and have a high qts which is good for higher midbass sensitivity and if you like a rising bass response. Otherwise if you want something with higher xmax the Beyma 10G40 is highly regarded by Eric (6mm of genuine xmax I think) but they are not neo and they are deeper than the B&C 10NW64.
> 
> I'm thinking of upgrading from my faitals to something with more xmax. How do the 10NW64's sound and what xo are they running?


I'll be running full bodies this time, sorry about that I thought I had put that in my original post but I see I didn't. As for budget, well I was hoping to keep it around $6-800 for all 4 drivers. I just looked into the CD10Nd and it looks very promising and only $20 more then the DE500. I'll look into the 10G40 but I'm afraid I may have an issues with the motor diameter in my doors. Previously I ran mini bodies at 1200Hz HP 24dB and the 10NW64 running 80-1.2k. Thanks for your suggestions, it would be fun to try some different drivers this time around. Not that I had and complaints with the previous combo.


----------



## fenis (Apr 12, 2008)

With your decent budget I would choose the CD10Nd over the DE500 as they play lower, have higher sensitivity, lower distortion and a very nice sounding midrange (probably due to the PM4 polymer diaphragm compared with titanium for the DE500). Although I have never heard the DE500's before. One other guy in Australia used to run the CD10Nd and once a judge at a comp said it was the best treble he has ever heard (I think he was running the mini horns however).

Given your size issues I think the 10NW64 cannot be beaten (the Faital 10FE200 is smaller but has less xmax, less power handling and probably much higher power compression). I really dig the ventilation holes on the back of the 10NW64 = good thermal dissipation. How much power have you got for the mids?


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Here is my current leaderboard:

compression driver between $100-$150 : JBL 2408H-1 ($110)
between $0-$50 : Celestion CDX1-1445 ($45) Celestion CDX1-1445 Ferrite 1" Compression Driver 20W

I can't think of a single driver I like between $50 and $100. I use the Celestion CDX1-1725 constantly, but I paid $35 for mine, before neodymium prices went nuts. They cost $110 now, and at that price, I'd get the JBL.


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

On a side note, I have some fairly odd criteria for a compression driver, so keep this in mind:

1) I think there is a noticeable and audible difference between compression drivers with large diaphragms, like the B&C DE250, and compression drivers with small diaphragms, like everything I use in my projects. I know that theoretically we can't hear much above 16hz, but I notice an unmistakable lack of "sparkle" from the DE250. YMMV
2) Due to point number one, I generally avoid any of the large compression drivers









As far as distortion goes, I find that it is so low with a compression driver, it's basically not a factor. I can't hear the difference between distortion that's 20dB below the fundamental and 30dB below the fundamental. But I can DEFINITELY hear problems with frequency response, which is why I generally obsess over the waveguide more than the compression driver. I have a shelf full of compression drivers in my garage, and I basically use whatever fits. I can *barely* hear the difference between a 4540ND, a CDX1-1725 and a 2408H-1. I can easily hear the difference between those three and a DE250, because a DE250 lacks that "air" in the top octave. But you may not notice that, it's really going to be depend on your own perception.


----------



## Wy2quiet (Jun 29, 2010)

Are you running any of these ON the dash, with a waveguide that is somewhat aesthetically appealing? Or would one have to go the ghetto route if they didn't want to spend mad cash.


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Wy2quiet said:


> Are you running any of these ON the dash, with a waveguide that is somewhat aesthetically appealing? Or would one have to go the ghetto route if they didn't want to spend mad cash.


Yeah, Celestion CDX1-1425 in SAW lenses


----------



## jwc1486 (Aug 21, 2010)

The new Mmats neo compression is awesome and great price.. and their 10 inch dtx sounds great


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

jwc1486 said:


> The new Mmats neo compression is awesome and great price.. and their 10 inch dtx sounds great




















Hmmm I wonder where they're getting these from? 

Actually that's a good price though. And if they stop selling them it looks like the JBL may be a drop-in replacement. Lulz that they go to the trouble of grinding off the JBL logo


----------



## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Hmmm I wonder where they're getting these from?
> 
> Actually that's a good price though. And if they stop selling them it looks like the JBL may be a drop-in replacement. Lulz that they go to the trouble of grinding off the JBL logo


Ahhh, it all makes sense.. Hey, if your going to rebadge stuff and sell it under you own night, might as well rebadge good stuff lol


----------



## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

fenis said:


> With your decent budget I would choose the CD10Nd over the DE500 as they play lower, have higher sensitivity, lower distortion and a very nice sounding midrange (probably due to the PM4 polymer diaphragm compared with titanium for the DE500). Although I have never heard the DE500's before. One other guy in Australia used to run the CD10Nd and once a judge at a comp said it was the best treble he has ever heard (I think he was running the mini horns however).
> 
> Given your size issues I think the 10NW64 cannot be beaten (the Faital 10FE200 is smaller but has less xmax, less power handling and probably much higher power compression). I really dig the ventilation holes on the back of the 10NW64 = good thermal dissipation. How much power have you got for the mids?


The mini horns with my B&C DE500's sounded better than about any tweeter I've ever heard, so I can believe that. Wasn't as happy AT ALL with the full sized horns up top though. The mini horns really made them come alive on the top octave, lots of "sparkle", but without sounding fake like a ribbon sometimes does


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I am having a hard time believing those MMATS drivers are unlabeled JBLs.


----------



## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

yeah, designed and engineered by MMATS Pro Audio, USA.

I'm sure they copied that too, since I believe most JBL is "designed and engineered in USA" but built in Mexico or China.


----------



## fenis (Apr 12, 2008)

T3mpest said:


> The mini horns with my B&C DE500's sounded better than about any tweeter I've ever heard, so I can believe that. Wasn't as happy AT ALL with the full sized horns up top though. The mini horns really made them come alive on the top octave, lots of "sparkle", but without sounding fake like a ribbon sometimes does


I know what you mean about the top octave kind of missing on the full size horns. On the RTA it drops off like a cliff after about 15khz. However I still like to use them as I love how when I cross them low (800hz 24db/oct or 1150hz 12db/oct) it really helps integrate the bass into the treble.


----------



## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

fenis said:


> I know what you mean about the top octave kind of missing on the full size horns. On the RTA it drops off like a cliff after about 15khz. However I still like to use them as I love how when I cross them low (800hz 24db/oct or 1150hz 12db/oct) it really helps integrate the bass into the treble.


Yeah with the bigger mids where you need that lower crossover point I can see that. The larger horns had a more even tonality overall, took less EQ and they def have a better lower midrange. Mini horns imaged better, stronger center especially and have a better top end. They both work well, just depends what your install needs and what you value.


----------



## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> I am having a hard time believing those MMATS drivers are unlabeled JBLs.


How so, it's a pretty convincing argument. You can even see where the JBL logo used to be, unless there is some other reason they'd have a blank square etched on to the horn body where the other says "JBL" Best case scenario that IS the same outside casing, worse case you crack them open and their identical.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You know how many B&C DE250 clones there are on the market, and they all look the same but don't perform the same or share parts with the DE250?

Because they are looking the same doesn't mean anything with what they are or how they perform.

And I never knew JBL/Harman OEMed for any one outside of HI...


----------



## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> You know how many B&C DE250 clones there are on the market, and they all look the same but don't perform the same or share parts with the DE250?
> 
> Because they are looking the same doesn't mean anything with what they are or how they perform.
> 
> And I never knew JBL/Harman OEMed for any one outside of HI...


Ah, yeah they could def be some chinese knock of type of deal, especially since the price is apparently pretty good on them.


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> You know how many B&C DE250 clones there are on the market, and they all look the same but don't perform the same or share parts with the DE250?
> 
> Because they are looking the same doesn't mean anything with what they are or how they perform.
> 
> And I never knew JBL/Harman OEMed for any one outside of HI...


Companies do this all the time though:









^^ Polk uses Vifa drivers and puts their own part numbers on them.
QSC uses B&C and Celestion drivers and puts their own part numbers on them.
USD Audio uses Radian drivers and puts their own part numbers on them.

I've personally purchased four QSC parts and some of them had QSC labels on them, and some of them had Celestion labels on them.

As far as Chinese knockoffs, yeah, that happens. But Chinese knockoffs are generally copies of expensive drivers. For instance Dayton has a $30 tweeter that's a clone of a $100 Dynaudio. *There's no point in knocking off the JBL; as Cajunner noted, it's made in Mexico. You're not going to get the price much lower.*

It's just a sticker; underneath it's typically the same part.

Sure, there *are* instances where changes are made. So you really need to measure the drivers. But 75% of the time they just put a sticker on, and it's the same driver.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Companies do...but how many examples can you find that JBL and Harman has done it? I can't think of any off of the top of my head.

The MMATs driver has a MSRP of $70. The JBL 2408H-2, which is the even cheaper replacement of the 2408h-1 that you have pictures has a MSRP of $150. The MMATs has a FR listed from 3.5k to 15k...doesn't sound like the FR of the JBL part.

No other drivers from MMATS look like JBL drivers either.

JBL also manufactures drivers in China. GGEC is a build house for them over there.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And the USD cone drivers were Emilar drivers, which has history with Radian, and those drivers had the same part numbers as the USD drivers. Maybe you could use the internet archives and go check out the Plus One Engineering site, which was Emilar after Emilar folded- same part numbers Pro15b or whatever the 15s were called.


----------

