# shallow sub comparison



## Filli57

ok guys. i know the SI bm mkiii is really nice but it's too pricey. i heard my friends 2 10" kicker cvt's and was fairly impressed. it was lackin sq but it had pretty good spl.
so of the budgets shallows which one would you run and why? which one has the best sql sound if any?
MTX thunder thin, RF P3S, or Kicker CVT?


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## SomeGuy748

Seen some failures with the RF's, the CVT's that I've heard have been less than impressive, and the MTX require some decent power. Of the three I would pick the MTX as they have the best sound and output. Not to mention you can beat the heck out of them and they just keep coming back for more.


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## Filli57

my uncle owned some old mtx's that's what got me into the hole thing. the mtx is 300 rms so your saying they are underrated?


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## SomeGuy748

In my experience with them I would say they are a little underrated. They work fine in their recommended power range but I've been able to push them harder with some positive results. Would probably suggest a minimum of 500 watts rather than 300 especially while they are breaking in.


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## Lanson

Soundstream shallow, Pioneer shallow, Earthquake shallow, Dayton shallow, Kenwood shallow.. all better.

But a single SI BM will outplay a lot of other shallow subs in pairs.


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## Filli57

don't like the pioneer. i have heard on this site that the soundstream shallow is trash.
and have seen the dayton it looked nice and is in that price range do you have any personal expirence with that driver?
i'd love to SI BM but i want 2 woofers i've done the single sub setup and don't like it. maybe i can pick up a used set.


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## Lanson

Not sure if you have your priorities straight.

The SI BM single will outperform most pairs of others.

All other variables equal, two subs simply produces 3dB more volume than a single, provided the power is shared between the two.

So, to out-do a pair of subs, all the SI needs then is to have better excursion. And it DOES. 14mm linear one way. 

If you want shallow, and you think the others are trash, I highly doubt you will be satisfied with anything but the SI.

I have a pair in my false floor, and they are a wonderful product. I haven't even got them moving yet, and they overpower my front stage. I'm sure 1 would have been as useful for me.


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## Filli57

i have only heard 2 brands of shallow subs. pioneer and kicker. i liked the kicker better. i just remember while looking around that the soundstream was "junk" supposedly, just going by what others say.

you could sell me that one you don't need


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## emrliquidlife

I have a Pioneer Shallow. The sub performs, but it is a compromise. Both in the box size I was allowed, and the driver. 

FWIW, The Pioneer appears well vented and has a nice tone to it, however, I find it a bit slow. But you can pick them up for about $99. I had bought a first one, and it got a rattle 30 minutes into listening. Sent it back, and got a replacement. That one has been fine.

Rockford also makes a shallow...P3s210. I bought this and it has been sitting on my dresser since I bought it.

Ed


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## stryfe

I like my Pionner shallow.....but I'm planning on replacing it with SI shallow.


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## Filli57

went and heard some s class memphis and wow they were very nice and i can get a pretty good deal on them. but i watched a youtube video of the re and was impressed and i've had re stuff previously and it was quality. no personal expireince with memphis but my uncle has them in his dodge and really liked them so....
head to head Memphis S class vs. RE SL series?!

no SI BM MKIII remarks please, i just can't afford 270 a sub that's 540 for 2


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## Electrodynamic

Filli57 said:


> head to head Memphis S class vs. RE SL series?!
> 
> no SI BM MKIII remarks please, i just can't afford 270 a sub that's 540 for 2


The RE SL's are ~$250 aren't they? And who said anything about the BM mkIII's being $270? They'll be $220 when they're back in stock.


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## Filli57

ohhh hmm maybe i'll get the bm's then! i swore i saw somewhere they were gonna be 270 lol i could get the re's for 200 shipped but i can swing 40 extra bucks. 
do you have a time table for them be in stock again?


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## bsvrs

I will tell you that the BMs are loud little suckers for being so.. well, little.


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## dantonel

Not to Forum Jack but does anyone have any footage of their BM Mkiii in action? I'm glad I stopped here before settling for Pioneer Shallow Junk. great thread!


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## Electrodynamic

dantonel said:


> Not to Forum Jack but does anyone have any footage of their BM Mkiii in action? I'm glad I stopped here before settling for Pioneer Shallow Junk. great thread!


Here's a video of the ferrite mkII version at full stroke demonstrating how there's zero mechanical noise. It might take a while to load but it's a neat video: http://www.stereointegrity.com/images/BM_neo/BMmkIIexcursion.MOV

And then here's the death of a mkIII: 

YouTube - Death of a Stereo Integrity BM mkIII


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## dantonel

Yeah, I saw those! Nice job by the way on the excursion silence!


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## Lanson

I haven't taken video but I've listened to my pair as much as I can, and they are silent performers. Loud, LOUD, LOUD though.


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## Filli57

ya'll need to post up some of ya'lls bm mkIII videos to help out with my decision


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## amkarlix

are there any plans for the bm mkII to be made in a 10" version?


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## dantonel

negative... I asked Nick. (I hope a 12 will fit in the space I need.)


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## google123

So when is this MK going on sale? Is it already on sale? Will it make my waffles? This things I must know!!!


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## mSaLL150

fourthmeal said:


> I haven't taken video but I've listened to my pair as much as I can, and they are silent performers. Loud, LOUD, LOUD though.


x2. I have 2 and it is LOUD. Very overpowering of my front stage when I open them up.


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## Filli57

can any of ya'll that have them get a video of them playing a rap song or any song for that matter?


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## dantonel

google123 said:


> So when is this MK going on sale? Is it already on sale? Will it make my waffles? This things I must know!!!


Yeah Nick Come on man!!!!


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## coefamily

how much depth do you have to work with? 
I have found that a "normal" sub that has a lower profile will work better then a Shallow mount design.


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## Lanson

dantonel said:


> negative... I asked Nick. (I hope a 12 will fit in the space I need.)



Great chances are that it will. I made two fit in a very shallow fiberglass box in the false floor of my SUV.

In fact, I impressed the Escape / Tribute / Mariner crowd so much that two guys commissioned me to build replica copies of my box for their vehicles. 

Because it needs so little space to play well in a box, and so little space behind the sub to breathe, it is the ultimate shallow sub I think.


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## Filli57

i got like 3.5-4 inches tops. it's going under my seat in my crew cab canyon


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## Lanson

Filli57 said:


> i got like 3.5-4 inches tops. it's going under my seat in my crew cab canyon



Go SI for sure. As close as you are to that sub, you are going to enjoy the ZERO mechanical noise created by it. I'd order the G12 Madisound grille to go with it, fits like a glove.


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## Filli57

only problem is there is none to buy lol


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## Lanson

Filli57 said:


> only problem is there is none to buy lol



Yeah, I got in on the very first round, and was lucky to do so. But hey, he's got another round coming, probably well worth the wait.


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## Filli57

yea hopefully before the end of may they'll have some more available. i know this is kinda a stupid question i know they will sound 1000x cleaner but with 1000watts will these get louder than two 10 kicker CVT's in a undersized box, i think it's .4 cu ft for each sub? just curious cause i'll never hear the end of it for spending 400+ compared to $160 and not be as loud.


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## Lanson

A pair of them? Probably. I modeled my SI's at 1000W (shouldn't do that, but I did for the sake of pushing it), and you can do the same with WinISD. That will give you an idea of how much louder or quieter you will really get, + cabin gain of course. My guess is that the much larger excursion of the SI's combined with the much higher cone area will result in at least a 6dB increase in SPL. Not chump change.


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## coefamily

A Canyon, your kidding, Thats exactly what I have been trying to fit for the past month. If you raise your seat a little you can gain about an inch to 5" and a hole world opens up for you. Currently I have tried 2 8" CVT and they are awefull.


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## Filli57

yea i'm gonna raise the seat and take the cup holder out then have the box extend from the seat to the center console. i had it like that with 1 10" re sx but i want to go a different direction.


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## coefamily

crew cab or extended?


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## Filli57

crew. it's basically gonna be a T shape. extended cabs have it easy if you don't use the seats.


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## Electrodynamic

If all you're after is sheer output and you don't really care for how clean, fast, or transparent your subwoofer is, you might want to look a different direction than the BM mkIII. The BM mkIII is a top level, distortion-free, sound quality subwoofer that just happens to be able to get fairly loud.


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## Electrodynamic

google123 said:


> So when is this MK going on sale? Is it already on sale? Will it make my waffles? This things I must know!!!


Hopefully we'll have the next pre-order open by the end of this month. I'll keep this forum updated in the Vendors section on any/all progress.


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## Filli57

don't get me wrong i like sq but it'd like something more spl orientated that happens to have decent sq if that makes sense


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## Lanson

It does. It honestly does do both very well. What makes it so "SQ" for me is that it remains dead quiet even when pushed. Most SPL-oriented subs make a racket, distracting the listener from the music. This thing just goes. I'll tell ya what though. A small box with a 14mm X-max sub means your box will be put to the test. ANY leak will be discovered, I promise that. I had to use Don's butyl rope around the hole I made in my carpeted false-floor box to get it to stop making heinous noises.


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## Filli57

i gonna put them in a fiberglass box so if i have a hole or leak i have problems. the older i get, i'm 20 and sound like an old man lol, i like sq more, its more of a refined sound. it's like those 16's with some l7's that think they have the best and then you listen to better sq sub it's just so much more musical


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## mxer657

JL w5 sounds pretty good..


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## dantonel

I'm having a Guy do a Fiberglass enclosure for my Spec5 and I fully intend on getting the SI BM Mkiii. Hands down after every comparison (price, wattage, frequency, etc...) it blew all the others away.


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## Filli57

does anyone know where i can find the si bm mkiii parameters? i've searched on their website but couldn't find it.


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## Electrodynamic

Filli57 said:


> does anyone know where i can find the si bm mkiii parameters? i've searched on their website but couldn't find it.


The parameters are on our forum. I beleve it's even stickied.


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## Filli57

thanks man i guess i just missed it.


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## Filli57

since i have a mac i had a friend put the re sl series 10" and si bm mkIII 12" in winisd for me. here is the results. this is my first time fooling around with winisd so can ya'll help explain the graphs to me?


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## Lanson

WTF? That's the not WinISD I know.


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## Filli57

i actually think he used unibox. i told him winisd but i guess he used what program he had.


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## Filli57

here is the winisd plot


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## Electrodynamic

WinISD is a good modeling tool if your listening environment is an anechoic chamber. If you are putting the subwoofer system (subwoofer and enclosure) inside a vehicle, then that WinISD plot goes out the window.


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## Lanson

Electrodynamic said:


> WinISD is a good modeling tool if your listening environment is an anechoic chamber. If you are putting the subwoofer system (subwoofer and enclosure) inside a vehicle, then that WinISD plot goes out the window.



Very true, but it can be used in comparisons vs. something you've already heard in the vehicle/

Also if you take the time to do so, you can map out your transfer function of your vehicle and integrate it to the plots when modeling.


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## Electrodynamic

fourthmeal said:


> Very true, but it can be used in comparisons vs. something you've already heard in the vehicle.


Very true. It's also a great program for calculating port size and length in vented enclosures. Out of all the modeling programs I have, I still use WinISD for the latter.


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## T3mpest

Electrodynamic said:


> Very true. It's also a great program for calculating port size and length in vented enclosures. Out of all the modeling programs I have, I still use WinISD for the latter.


it's very easy to use for things like that since it's quick and as mentioned above, it's good for an A/B if you know what another driver sounded like in the same car.


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## Lanson

I have some update info on SI's and how they perform. 

So it came to pass that three guys on another forum (Escape-City, a forum for Escape / Tribute / Mariner SUV owners) decided they wanted me to build them some fiberglass boxes built to spec for the same vehicle I drive. And the sub for these boxes will be a single SI BM mkIII. Well, I use two of them so my box is slightly bigger and taller, but the same general shape is used so I worked off my original design and adjusted it as I built it. But during testing of my box, I realized I was getting excessive flexing and rattles, indicating I may have built it too weak. Granted, I could stand on the box and do jumping jacks without any flex but apparently a pair of SI's were more capable than I thought. So when I pulled the box I built for myself to make room for the construction of these 3 other boxes, I decided to reinforce my own box with a few more layers of fiberglass inside and out.

Let me tell you, folks... a pair of 12's that can move ~28mm peak-to-peak in barely 1 cubic foot worth of space makes for some serious air pressure to fight against. These subs can thrust, so build accordingly. Once I made the three other box shells for the other guys, I put my reinforced box back in and rebuilt my system. Eureka! With the reinforcements made I had no more flexing or rattles, only BASS and lots of it. Without any EQ, in a relatively small SUV, and with two of these subs in what I would imagine is .8-.9 cubic feet (poly-stuffed), I'm getting intense response from 35hz clear to 100hz when playing test tracks (thanks to the links in DIYMA for test tones.) These suckers are inaudible as well, which is a major plus. I'm so used to "noisy" subs that it is refreshing to run these. 

Moral of the story,...if you are going to use this sub or a pair of them...build your box as strong as you can and expect greatness. 



Anybody try these band-pass? Good idea, bad idea?


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## dantonel

I can't wait til mine get here!!! Ordered them Friday night (cause I heard they go quick). I wish Nick could Duplicate himself like 5 times and pump these suckers out faster than 60 days! I Need Me Some SQ/SPL!!! lol


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## Lanson

I've also learned that square-drive screws are a much safer bet when installing these. That, and a piece of MDF right over the driver to protect it during the process. You can never be too safe.


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## 2167

Exile XT10


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