# Mercedes C230 Re-build by Scott Babson at Kustom Kar



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

We recently did a re-build on my 2006 Mercedes C230 Sport at Kustom Kar Audio in Santa Rosa, Ca. Scott Babson has done all the installation and fabrication on this car.
The purpose of this re-build was to give me the ability to have the maximum tuning capabilities on all the 5.1 channels. The area that has been the most problematic has been the rear surround channels. The Alpine PXI-H990 only allows an active two-way set-up for the rear channels and I am running an active three-way set-up. In the past I have had to combine either of two drivers and run them with the Morel passive crossover, while running the remaining driver active. This method afforded much compromise with regards to the ability to tune the rear channels properly.
The solution was to set-up the Alpine PXI-H990 to output full range rear left and right channel signals and route that to the analog inputs of an Alpine PXA-H800. The H800 was set to a three-way setup without subwoofer. This now gives me full active control of the rear channels. The H800 gives me time correction, active crossover set-up, and parametric equalization. The H990 gives me additional time correction (overall channel) and graphic equalization on both left and right rear channels. This is considerably more tuning control than previously available and has yielded the exact result I was seeking. The five channels, L,C,R,LS,RS are far better timbre matched and time and phase correct.









Accompanied with this system re-design, I wanted to facilitate some other things that would improve the systems functionality. The first of these was to replace the six cooling fans with super quiet fans. As we know heat is the enemy of audio electronics over time, so I wanted to be able to leave the fans running all the time, even during the most critical listening sessions. The choice was the Noiseblocker NB Blacksilent Pro Ultra Quiet Fan. Each fan has a rated noise level of 10dbA. With the system on and all six fans running at full rpm, they are completely inaudible from the listening position. In fact they are almost inaudible when running the fan and holding it next to your ear. They also come with rubber isolating mounts. This modification was well worth the effort.

















With this re-design we would be adding the H800 and another PDX-F6. That is a total of 6 amplifiers and three processors as well as all the other source components. I wanted to make sure the system would remain noise free after the re-build. We decided to re-wire the systems power, ground, turn-on and all the RCA cables. Because of the number of distributed power and ground connections required, conventional car audio distribution blocks were not an option. We chose to use a MARATHON 1452552 POWER DISTRIBUTION BLOCK 600V 380AMPS. This distribution block has two poles. One for power and one for ground, with an input of 500 MCM to 4 gauges and up to 12 outputs, 2 to 14 gauges. These type of blocks are used in industrial applications and are rated to 380amps and 600volts AC. They are made of aluminum. With this re-wire all service loops were optimized for possible servicing later. With minor modifications to the plastic housing and addition of a clear plastic cover, the block fit perfectly and yielded easy accessibility to all connections.

















We also needed to facilitate the access to the USB connections of both processors. We installed two USB switchers to access each processor from either the front seat listening position during “Ear Tuning” sessions or from the trunk during “RTA Tuning” sessions. I am now able to run my H990, H800, and Goldline tuning software simultaneously on my HP PC. Two USB panel mount connectors were mounted to what used to be the ashtray in the rear of the C230’s center console. We also permanently mounted the 12volt accessory power outlet to allow powering of my PC during tuning. We installed two panel mount USB connectors to the existing cover previously made to cover the Xantrec Truecharge 40 amp 3-stage charger in the trunk’s driver-side quarter panel.

















Another specific challenge of the re-build would be to relocate the PDX-M12 subwoofer amplifier to a location behind the rear passenger seat. The existing amplifier stacking location in the trunk will only allow 5 amplifiers. A location was selected to the driver side of the ski-pass through hole behind the rear seat. The amplifier was oriented such that all adjustment pots and switches would be accessible through the pass through. Scott made a cradle out of 1/8” aluminum and bent it to fit the profile required. The cradle was secured in place and then the amplifier was mounted and wiring connected.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

The H800 was located in the passenger side trunk quarter panel. This is where the Morel passive had resided. This time an ABS mount was created and the H800 secured in place. The trunk liner carpet hides the H800 but since access to it is via USB connection this was not an issue.

















The re-design/re-build was well worth the effort and cost. 

Scott Babson's abilities, techniques, and attention to detail are second to none.


----------



## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

holly **** this is awesome build!!!! dont stop keep going!!!


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

optimaprime said:


> holly **** this is awesome build!!!! dont stop keep going!!!


Not sure what you mean. What would you suggest I do next?


----------



## knever3 (Mar 9, 2009)

Wow! Overkill perhaps, everything but the kitchen sink. The total opposite of k.i.s.s. I applaud you for making all this work, too bad the processors weren't expandable with firmware upgrades. It would be nice to send it back to Alpine and have a custom DSP built.


----------



## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

garysummers said:


> Not sure what you mean. What would you suggest I do next?


Don't stop posting pics


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

knever3 said:


> It would be nice to send it back to Alpine and have a custom DSP built.


Alpine discontinued the PXI-H990 processor in 2005. Somehow I don't think they would be interested in developing a custom processor. They are marketing the PXA-H800 as their top processor.


----------



## palldat (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks for the follow up on the add on. Iasume that this was done before last gtg. I am getting ready to do my install.... Yeah I know it is in but not finished. I am rewiring the speakers and adding fans for the 4 HD jl amps.

Really should talk to someone about building a multi channel processor. As we have talked about in the past, the auto industry has between 10 and 20 speaker systems so there is a market for the product. Plus one they hear your car and ideas I am sure we could get sales going.


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Nice work Scott and Gary! So, does this mean there is a possibility to run 2 H800's together? Looks pretty promising!


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> Nice work Scott and Gary! So, does this mean there is a possibility to run 2 H800's together? Looks pretty promising!


After further thought and looking at the 5.1 configuration offered by the H800, you would get very little benefit from a two processor set-up. You would also be limited to a 2-way front stage. If you used a coaxial or point source speaker for the midrange and high frequencies and utilized a passive crossover for these,you could do a full three way 5.1 system with one processor using set-up #4 on the H800.


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Very nice, Gary. I'd like to hear your car some day. I saw you and it at a comp last season but your time was monopolized by others. I'll have to push my way in next time


----------



## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

I like the distribution blocks! very industrial... also the bent metal support for the amp. very clean


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

hot9dog said:


> I like the distribution blocks! very industrial... also the bent metal support for the amp. very clean


Based on the number of larger Awg connections required for the system, I felt conventional car audio distribution blocks were not appropriate and would require using several, taking up more space and not as neat.


----------



## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

Is there fusing on the 7 wires after the distribution block or just at the amps / processors themselves?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Sine Swept said:


> Is there fusing on the 7 wires after the distribution block or just at the amps / processors themselves?


Fusing after the block is at the amps and processors.


----------



## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

I suspect the pics don't do the upgrades justice, great work Scott and Gary.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't think you have enough power.


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Nice job. Did you have to compensate the T/A settings of the rest of the system due to the processing delay added by the H800?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Nice job. Did you have to compensate the T/A settings of the rest of the system due to the processing delay added by the H800?


How I have utilized the time correction from the two processors is by using the H800 to do the time correction between the individual 3-way speakers and using the H990 to delay the overall left and right rear channels. The overall rear channels were delayed with respect to the front-stage and the sub. Since the H800 is only doing processing for the rear channels, whatever latency there is in the H800 would just be added into the equation when calculating the rear delays. It wasn't done by math but by ear.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

thehatedguy said:


> I don't think you have enough power.


Headroom is our friend.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Golden Ear said:


> Very nice, Gary. I'd like to hear your car some day. I saw you and it at a comp last season but your time was monopolized by others. I'll have to push my way in next time


No need to push! If I am there, you are welcome to hear it.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

I am truly checking this out!!!


----------



## Rs roms (Jul 12, 2012)

Great work as usual. I wish if i can hear your car someday........


----------



## shutmdown (Aug 24, 2008)

your my hero gary! I hope to hear your car one day.


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

garysummers said:


> No need to push! If I am there, you are welcome to hear it.


Sounds good


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

shutmdown said:


> your my hero gary! I hope to hear your car one day.



:embarassed:

:speechless:

If I am at an event and you are there, your welcome to give a listen.


----------



## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

Nice build! Do you have some more pictures off the rest off the build and the finished parts?


----------



## brett.b10 (Dec 1, 2008)

Here you go Tonny
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...llery/139236-mercedes-midbass-enclosures.html


----------



## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

Nice doors but are there also pictures off the rest off the car? Dash build and the booth build and so on?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

tonny said:


> Nice doors but are there also pictures off the rest off the car? Dash build and the booth build and so on?


Sorry!
No, don't have the "build log" your looking for.
Finished photos, yes


----------



## 555nova (Apr 12, 2014)

Where can we find these finished photos?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

555nova said:


> Where can we find these finished photos?



Give me a little time and I will gather some together and post them.


----------



## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

garysummers said:


> Give me a little time and I will gather some together and post them.


I hope so your build is awesome


----------



## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

garysummers said:


> Sorry!
> No, don't have the "build log" your looking for.
> Finished photos, yes


Finished pictures are fine!


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

FRONT STAGE

















































IPOD IN GLOVE COMPARTMENT









WINDOW/TRUNK SWITCHES IN CENTER CONSOLE









5 AMPLIFIERS AND 2 H990 PROCESSORS / SEALED SUB ENCLOSURES TO THE LEFT AND RIGHT OF AMP STACK









MOREL SUBS ON REAR DECK









I WILL GET A SHOT OF THE REAR STAGE WHEN THE LIGHTING IS RIGHT.


----------



## tonny (Dec 4, 2010)

Very nice installation! 

I would love to hear it… The only problem is I live on the wrong side off a big ocean…


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Gary, did you pass on the RUX controller for the H800? Very thoughtful layout throughout btw... Your car was the first SQ comp car I heard in Sacramento over 3 yrs ago. You played a Cirque Du Soleil surround sound track that sounded like something was going to rip the roof off the car, it was that Dynamic! I've been chasing that effect ever since.


----------



## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

Wow it's :gorgeous:


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> Gary, did you pass on the RUX controller for the H800? Very thoughtful layout throughout btw... Your car was the first SQ comp car I heard in Sacramento over 3 yrs ago. You played a Cirque Du Soleil surround sound track that sounded like something was going to rip the roof off the car, it was that Dynamic! I've been chasing that effect ever since.


The Rux controller is coiled up behind the back seat. I can bring it through the ski pass through and up to the driver seat for tuning if I want.

I still use that piece of music for demos. I mixed that for a Cirque du Soleil 3D IMAX film produced by Sony pictures back in 2001. As soon as I finished mixing that song I got a copy of the .wav files so I would have it to listen to.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

optimaprime said:


> Wow it's :gorgeous:


All the credit for the installation and fabrication goes to Scott Babson.
He is very talented!


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

garysummers said:


> The Rux controller is coiled up behind the back seat. I can bring it through the ski pass through and up to the driver seat for tuning if I want.
> 
> I still use that piece of music for demos. I mixed that for a Cirque du Soleil 3D IMAX film produced by Sony pictures back in 2001. As soon as I finished mixing that song I got a copy of the .wav files so I would have it to listen to.


Thanks for sharing that. Was this your first SQ car, or did you go through various iterations that culminated to this masterpiece? I for one am sold on surround sound and your car set the bar very high.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> Thanks for sharing that. Was this your first SQ car, or did you go through various iterations that culminated to this masterpiece? I for one am sold on surround sound and your car set the bar very high.


I briefly competed in IASCA the mid 90's with a 780 Bertone volvo coupe.
MB Quart QSD's, 2 McIntosh MC431, Audio Control EQT's, ESP3, Center channel,
JL10W6's. Sort of the run for that time. This car was only 2 channel when I competed it.

Then I tore it apart to try and do 5.1 in the car. This was the new flow diagram.









Notice the Lexicon DC2. We put a Zapco 12v power supply in it.
Also the McIntosh CD player was modified to have a digital coaxial output.

We had everything built and the car wired but never got it installed.
Here are photos the trunk components assembled in my garage.









There was some pretty crazy stuff built into this. Way overkill!
Due to the limitations of the technology of the day, I could never have achieved what I have done in the Benz back then.

Sorry for the poor photos. These were taken some years ago.


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

The Bertone was a nice one! Thanks for sharing all this!


----------



## Bdub (Dec 16, 2007)

Wow, I'm speechless about this one. I would love to hear your car one day.


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

garysummers said:


> I briefly competed in IASCA the mid 90's with a 780 Bertone volvo coupe.
> MB Quart QSD's, 2 McIntosh MC431, Audio Control EQT's, ESP3, Center channel,
> JL10W6's. Sort of the run for that time. This car was only 2 channel when I competed it.
> 
> ...


Did Scott Babson build this one too? This is very elaborate diagram and it seems you've been inclined towards a surround based set ups for a while. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Bluenote said:


> Did Scott Babson build this one too? This is very elaborate diagram and it seems you've been inclined towards a surround based set ups for a while. Thanks for sharing.


No, I met Scott Babson in 2007 in connection with the first build on the Benz. 
He and Aaron Braverman did the first build at Kustom Kar in Santa Rosa. Aaron did all the fabrication on the 780.


----------



## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

They are some serious fabricators!


----------



## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

Bluenote said:


> They are some serious fabricators!


That is no **** !


----------



## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

garysummers said:


> View attachment 57995


Gary, I know you mentioned that there is not a build log of your build but I'm looking at this picture and I know I've seen the build up of these trunk panels somewhere. Was there an article of this in one of the older CA&E magazines? If not, then maybe I'm confusing it with something very similar to this.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

bigbubba said:


> Gary, I know you mentioned that there is not a build log of your build but I'm looking at this picture and I know I've seen the build up of these trunk panels somewhere. Was there an article of this in one of the older CA&E magazines? If not, then maybe I'm confusing it with something very similar to this.


You are correct. There was an article done some years back on the original install by CA&E magazine. Here are some excerpts from that article. Some show the evolution process of the build. Bare in mind the system has had many modifications and equipment changes since these pictures. The only thing that has remained untouched is the subwoofer enclosure.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

With the current pillars do you feel like you have better depth to the stage? I'm asking cause in the current pillars the tweeter and mid are physically further than in the earlier pillars....


----------



## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

Ok. I know I have the magazine and probably looked at it recently since it that picture was fresh in my mind.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

sqnut said:


> With the current pillars do you feel like you have better depth to the stage? I'm asking cause in the current pillars the tweeter and mid are physically further than in the earlier pillars....


Yes!


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Gary it looks like the center channel is firing straight to the back of the car, but how are the sides aimed?


----------



## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

How on earth did I miss this thread the first time?!
A DC-2 in car..... Fantastic sir!


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

mitchyz250f said:


> Gary it looks like the center channel is firing straight to the back of the car, but how are the sides aimed?


The left and right mid/tweeter are aimed to the center of the car, intersecting at ear height, on a line left to right through the ear position.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

danno14 said:


> How on earth did I miss this thread the first time?!
> A DC-2 in car..... Fantastic sir!


That was a previous install from the 90's.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

glad this was bumped. those fans you used for the amp rack are perfect for a project I've got coming up.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

ErinH said:


> glad this was bumped. those fans you used for the amp rack are perfect for a project I've got coming up.


They work well. All six fans power on and run full speed with every power up.
I can sit in the car, engine off, music off, system on, and cannot hear the fans.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Good to know! I don't really have a dire need for fans in my upcoming install but if the price isn't too bad then I may use a couple of these just for the hot summer. 

Also, thanks for sharing those distro blocks. I like those a lot.


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Thanks Gary. How are the rears aimed the same way?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

mitchyz250f said:


> Thanks Gary. How are the rears aimed the same way?


The rears were not aimed as precisely.
Not necessary since they are reproducing the ambient surround information.
In fact wth most 5.1 program the more random or diffused the rears are the better.


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Thanks Gary.


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Gary, did you ever try the sides in the same configuration as the center; with the tweeter in front of the mid?

Also is it to soon to ask for your observations of your small speaker coaxial evaluation?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

mitchyz250f said:


> Gary, did you ever try the sides in the same configuration as the center; with the tweeter in front of the mid?
> 
> Also is it to soon to ask for your observations of your small speaker coaxial evaluation?


No.
I wanted to get both drivers as far back into the apex of the dash and the windshield as I could.

Yes, too soon. More listening to do. Trying some more speakers.


----------



## Killbox13 (Mar 8, 2016)

Gary what's the difference between aming the mid and tweet the way you did ,at the center of the car at ear level, as compared to aming say the left side at the passengers ear and the right side at the drivers ear. I'm doing a similar build and am just trying to get good starting point as to where I aim the drivers. This will only be 3way front stage system played in stereo w/time correction etc etc


----------



## Killbox13 (Mar 8, 2016)

Also Gary, why up it to 500watts for the woofers and drop it to 200 for the tweeters. ? Your tweeters used to be at 300 watts each right ? Any specific reason ? Do you notice a difference in the woofers with all that head room as compared to the previous 300watts ?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Killbox13 said:


> Gary what's the difference between aming the mid and tweet the way you did ,at the center of the car at ear level, as compared to aming say the left side at the passengers ear and the right side at the drivers ear. I'm doing a similar build and am just trying to get good starting point as to where I aim the drivers. This will only be 3way front stage system played in stereo w/time correction etc etc


You should get the speakers you are going to use, in the car you are building, and experiment with the aiming. What one person did may not be optimum for your application. Experimentation with placement and aiming is key!


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Gary any update on your coaxial auditions? Maybe you could provide a ranking 1 to 10 and a few words? Thanks

Mitch


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

mitchyz250f said:


> Gary any update on your coaxial auditions? Maybe you could provide a ranking 1 to 10 and a few words? Thanks
> 
> Mitch


What I have been trying are a specific type of coaxial speaker. Concentric or Point source, as some call them. This is where the build of the speaker has the mid driver and the tweeter placed physically as to put them in time and phase correct.

I have listened to several different makes and they all are able to produce a very convincing sound stage. I am playing them with my home system, not in my car, yet! Each has been mounted in a 1.5 liter sealed box. They all are 5.25" speakers. No EQ, HP filter. Just out of the box. 

No definative desicion as to the best. I was more doing the testing to convince myself that the concentric concept was a good one. I am convinced.


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

To the point that you might try them on your dashboard?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Elgrosso said:


> To the point that you might try them on your dashboard?


Yes.


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Can't wait for the update.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

A little update! 
(no the morel tweeters are not playing)


----------



## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

How do you like it?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Cool! I was wondering which coax you would go with. I've always been interested in how those perform. Lots of good worth of mouth on them from people I know but I'd be curious what you used and how you arrived at those for the final decision given their less than "ideal" tweeter/mid termination. Also, what is your crossover point on the low end?

Your words may be my final push to try them myself.


----------



## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

> Good worth of mouth


That's actually an excellent phrase that makes sense 

Gary-
What speakers are you using?

Thx
D


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Just got all five installed today. Had been playing with the left and right installed now for about a week.
A little early for detailed analysis but so far very impressed.
On left and right the mid driver is getting 300 watts and the tweeter 200 watts.
No signs of clipping even with very dynamic material.
They are also not in the optimum volume enclosures currently.
Still listen and tuning. Crossovers currently are 220/12db and 3.6K/12db.
Coherence? Absolutely! Best it has ever been in my car and I haven't even begun to wrap my head around this little speaker.
I think you should grab a pair and listen/test them. I know you have been a fan of the concentric concept in the past. I would be interested in you impressions as well!

These were also chosen because the are exactly 88mm, same as the CDM880. Plug and Play, no mod required.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Alright. You twisted my arm. I'm trying some coaxials in my car right now but they're of the larger variety. Odds are they won't fit and I'll have to revert back to previous plans. So I'll put these at the top of my list. 

I will say I'm VERY impressed with the c10 woofers I'm using. Illusion puts out a solid product.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Also meant to ask/suggest...
Have you delayed the tweeter at all in time? The tweeter appears to be forward of the midrange by a centimeter or so which would likely need to be delayed a small fraction of a millisecond. If not, you might benefit from this. If I were to buy these I'd expect as much. So just a heads up if you haven't already done this. But knowing you, I'm sure you have.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

The C3CX are great drivers. I have been very pleased with the C3 in my own car. I look forward to hearing your impressions once you have more time to evaluate and fine tune the system.


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Gary can you provide a ranking of the coaxial speakers that you auditioned in your home.

Also the data sheet has 100 watts as max power.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

mitchyz250f said:


> Gary can you provide a ranking of the coaxial speakers that you auditioned in your home.
> 
> Also the data sheet has 100 watts as max power.


Not really, wasn't doing it to rank them although the SEAS probably sounded the best.

H1602-04/06 L12RE/XFC

The power rating I gave is the power that is potentially available if required.
I am probably using a quarter of that.


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Gary how is your car progressing?


----------



## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

ErinH said:


> Alright. You twisted my arm. I'm trying some coaxials in my car right now but they're of the larger variety. Odds are they won't fit and I'll have to revert back to previous plans. So I'll put these at the top of my list.
> 
> I will say I'm VERY impressed with the c10 woofers I'm using. Illusion puts out a solid product.


Didn't you already try coaxials?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I did, but I tried dual concentric coaxials. And they were huge. The c3cx is a more traditional type car audio coaxial with the tweeter mounted in front of the woofer (therefore, not acoustically aligned with the mid and also not using the midrange cone as a waveguide of sorts, both of which are advantages of a dual concentric design). 

I wanted to try the c3cx due to its size. I actually did get a pair but they won't physically fit so I'm sticking to what I got.


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Were your speakers located in the dash windshield interface? Did you notice a boost in gain? Which speakers did you use?


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Gary how is the new system progressing?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

mitchyz250f said:


> Gary how is the new system progressing?


Going very well! Definitely happy with the changes I made. ?


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Gee I think it is time for another update. I'll ask some questions to kick things off.

Can you describe the improvement that your hearing with the C3cx? Do you think it is all do due to the speaker being coincident or is it just a better sounding speaker.

Does the system sound as dynamic as it did before? The Morel CDM-880 midranges you were using before have a sensitivity of 91db (above 600Hz anyway) while the C3cx is advertised at 82.3db. How do the to systems compare at HIGHER volumes?

Did you notice anything unusual when you were tuning the car with the new speakers?

Have you made any additional changes after the speaker upgrade?


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

gary i need to hear this...i am struggling to find how my favorite sounding car in the world can sound any better


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

simplicityinsound said:


> gary i need to hear this...i am struggling to find how my favorite sounding car in the world can sound any better


Pretty slammed right now on a movie. Will come up for air middle of June.
Will be taking it up north then for mods. Could stop by your shop then.
Cheers!


----------



## kustomkaraudio (Jun 20, 2009)

garysummers said:


> Pretty slammed right now on a movie. Will come up for air middle of June.
> Will be taking it up north then for mods. Could stop by your shop then.
> Cheers!


June, huh...... News to me


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Have been experimenting with 'Up Front Sub". Just a 10" in a box for now but it works good. Once I am convinced then permo-build. The system now has reached critical mass!


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Cool....any pics yet?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

The sub up front will become permanent in the future. The plot attached is the result currently.


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Nice!
Is the sub centered?
I’m asking because when I tried a 2nd/support front sub in my footwell I still had some side biais.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

The subwoofer is mounted in a sealed enclosure in the passenger foot well. It is crossed over @56hz/24db/oct. I perceive no localization of the front sub.


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Ok thx, mine was probably more around 80Hz though, that would explain.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Made a trip back to Kustom Kar in Santa Rosa to make the front sub permanent. Scott Babson again doing the fabrication. The driver is a Dayton Audio LS10-44. The sealed box volume topped at 19liters. Bolted to the firewall and solid as a rock. Still using the rear subs as well.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Looks great, Gary! Clean and simple. What led to you choosing this particular sub? Did you try others?


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Gary, the with the long demos and lines, I never did get to hear the latest iteration of the Mercedes in Monterey. Can you explain your goals with the supplemental up-front subwoofer? 

Do you ever foresee removing the rear subwoofers and only using the 10 up front?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

mikey7182 said:


> Looks great, Gary! Clean and simple. What led to you choosing this particular sub? Did you try others?


Price, Build quality, Depth, TS parameters, Reviews.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

rton20s said:


> Gary, the with the long demos and lines, I never did get to hear the latest iteration of the Mercedes in Monterey. Can you explain your goals with the supplemental up-front subwoofer?
> 
> Do you ever foresee removing the rear subwoofers and only using the 10 up front?


I have heard other cars with subs in the front and liked the experience. My experimenting showed me it would work well in my car. I have played the system with just the front sub running and it does very well. Adding the rear subs just makes it that much more effortless to produce the needed low frequencies to balance out the system's SQ.


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

I’m glad to see that this system is only getting better as time goes on. Hopefully once my parenting thing slows down, I can fly out to hear it for myself.


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Gary, I am curious as to what are the crossovers of the various sub systems??


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

seafish said:


> Gary, I am curious as to what are the crossovers of the various sub systems??


The rear subwoofers (2 Morel Ultimo 10-4) are crossed over at [email protected]/oct. There is also .9ms of delay on the rears. The 12db/oct slope seems unusual for a rear sub, but a significant amount of damping was used to change the Q of the enclosure. The front subwoofer is crossed at [email protected]/oct. Their respective SPL levels are matched.


----------



## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

So good to see this still evolving slowly.
Are these acoustic crossovers, well I mean do they have similar response or do they partially fill each other?

I remember my LS in front it was fun with 3 others in the sides and back, but never had enough volume to get the full value.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Elgrosso said:


> So good to see this still evolving slowly.
> Are these acoustic crossovers, well I mean do they have similar response or do they partially fill each other?
> 
> I remember my LS in front it was fun with 3 others in the sides and back, but never had enough volume to get the full value.


I plan on doing a full tune soon so I will post some response curves when I get them.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

garysummers said:


> The rear subwoofers (2 Morel Ultimo 10-4) are crossed over at [email protected]/oct. There is also .9ms of delay on the rears. The 12db/oct slope seems unusual for a rear sub, but a significant amount of damping was used to change the Q of the enclosure. The front subwoofer is crossed at [email protected]/oct. Their respective SPL levels are matched.


Nice to see you (figuratively) again, Gary! Been a while. I hope all is well. 

You mentioned the 12dB/oct slopes on rear sub being unusual but IME, that's produced really good results for me as well even when crossing (electrically) at 70-80hz. I find that a 12dB slope on my subs usually results in a more seamless transition between the front speakers than using a higher order slope on the subs. The obvious downside to this would be the 'pulling' to the rear but that's taken care of in the final tune. Another trade-off I've noticed when switching back and forth between a 12dB slope and a higher order slope like 36dB/oct is that the kick drum impact isn't as 'immediate' (for a lack of better words) but that's also mostly taken care of in the tune. Obviously everyone's car and setup lends it's own set of problems and what works for some - or what trade-offs one is willing to exchange - might not work for others. 

Take care, dude! Drop me an email sometime if you're ever bored and wanna chat audio.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Hey Erin, All good here. Hoping the same for you as well.

The convincing things for me with regards to the 12db slope for the rear subs was not only did it sound more coherent played with the front sub and the mid basses but it also removed completely a 4-5 dB null between 45-60hz. Obviously the reason that sounded more coherent. It definitely does not pull to the rear as well.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Here is the in-vehicle low frequency response I plotted today.
You can see the acoustic response with respect to the electronic crossovers.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Rear subwoofers officially retired.


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

what amps?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Porsche said:


> what amps?


The front sub has a PDX- M6.
Rear subs a PDX-M12.


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

garysummers said:


> The front sub has a PDX- M6.
> Rear subs a PDX-M12.


what about the rest of the system amps?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Porsche said:


> what about the rest of the system amps?


All Alpine PDX F6, V9's

It is all in this thread.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Another update!

Posted this diagram recently which prompted me to do some experimenting with my rear channels.









I have never been totally happy with the rear image produced by the system. The rears were mounted in the c-pillars on the rear deck. From the driver position the right rear is behind and far to the right. The left rear is way back but directly behind the driver head position. The front stage is wide and balanced left to right, but the rear stage is uneven left to right. Solution!

























This is a "proof of concept" install. If time and money permit, there will be a rebuild of the headrest.
The drivers are Tang Band 1942S with custom grills from our friend Alexander in Russia. I swapped the Alpine H800 that was doing the processing for the rear channels for a Dayton Audio DSP408 to give me 4 complete processing channels for the 4 headrest speakers. 
I will tell you these little speakers are able to yield a perfect stereo image behind my head down to about 250Hz. The 5.1 reproduction in the car is the best it has ever been with the image going way out beyond the car on the driver side. Excellent 360 degree imaging. The passenger seat also now has the proper surround imaging as well. The rear L,R mid basses are optimized for the driver position. The speakers in the rear c-pillars have been removed.


----------



## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

this is why i love this site. this reminds me of something patrick tried a few years ago.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Gary, was there a specific reason you chose the Tang Band units? Did you ever consider a small BMR driver (or pair of drivers) like the Tectonic Elements TEBM35C10-4?

I look forward to getting a demo of your latest iteration.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

rton20s said:


> Gary, was there a specific reason you chose the Tang Band units? Did you ever consider a small BMR driver (or pair of drivers) like the Tectonic Elements TEBM35C10-4?
> 
> I look forward to getting a demo of your latest iteration.


The Tang Band driver was chosen because it is already mounted in a sealed enclosure along with it's passive radiator. I tried about six different drivers including the Tectonic driver you mentioned.


----------



## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Hi Gary, 

The RAM mounts are an awesome product as for it self. 

But as this is a POC - what speakers do you intend to use if this goes "Production"? 

I have those in mind knowing you have a lot of experience with Morel:

https://www.morelhifi.com/product/ccwr254/


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

eddieg said:


> Hi Gary,
> 
> The RAM mounts are an awesome product as for it self.
> 
> ...


I most likely would stay with the Tang Band, again it alleviates the need to construct an enclosure. I did experiment with the smaller version of the Tang Band module. Tang Band T1-1931S Speaker Module. It was very similar to the 1942S, just rolled off a little sooner on the low end. I was concerned about the power rating of these modules but in my application each speaker module is fed from the 100 watt channel of a Alpine V9. Obviously at six inches from my head to obtain a spl level matched to the front stage does not require much power at all.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I figured you had your reasons for selecting the TB. If you don't mind sharing, I'd love to know which other drivers you tried beyond the pair of TBs and Tectonic. Even cooler if you are open to sharing your process of evaluation and elimination. I always enjoy seeing how you continue to push the envelope with your car and make refinements.


----------



## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

100W on a small sensitive speaker like that.

That's just about like throwing a nuke at an ant. 

But I was really surprised when I tried this approach on a MICCA COVO-S (3.5 source port at a price range of 20$ - really love the way they sound, if you get a chance I recommend testing them just for the fun of it).

What I was really impressed by was how much better that speaker performed when the volume is low - took me by surprise because I didn't really think that that is were the most difference would be. 

Bombarding speakers with power is something I picked up from you by the way.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

rton20s said:


> I figured you had your reasons for selecting the TB. If you don't mind sharing, I'd love to know which other drivers you tried beyond the pair of TBs and Tectonic. Even cooler if you are open to sharing your process of evaluation and elimination. I always enjoy seeing how you continue to push the envelope with your car and make refinements.


I wish I could say my methods were super scientific but they are not. I would first mount each different driver in the center of a 2'X2' wooden baffle and measure the response with the RTA. I had the DSP-408 in line so I could see what basic correction was require to put the speakers response on the target curve for it's relevant frequency bandwidth. Realizing of course that once it went in the car this would change significantly. 







Then a few were chosen to go the next step to in car testing. Temporary enclosures were made. Again there response, now in car, was corrected to the curve and levels were matched with the front stage. Then it was all about listening.

Once the Tang Band 1942s was chosen, I had the grills made by Alexander.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Dayton Audio DSP-408 is out! Too much noise floor. Everything else was fine.
miniDSP C-DSP 6x8 in. All things equal much quieter. I guess I was expecting a lot for $120. ?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

With respect to my system and utilizing the headrest speaker method, all I can say is “game changer”. The playback of 5.1 material, both discreet and up mixed with Perfect Surround is a true sonic experience. And I say that as someone who has been mixing Surround audio for 36 years. 
I also notice that the miniDSP produces a wider Surround soundstage than the Dayton did. Not sure why but my ears tell me with out a doubt. I just loaded the same crossover, delay and eq settings I was using on the Dayton, matched levels by ear. I also made a 5.1 DVD Video that has stereo song material only on the rear left and rear right channels so I could get a good idea of the realistic fidelity of the Surround channels. Definitely improved.


----------



## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Are you still using the Alpine DSP for stereo upmixing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

tonynca said:


> Are you still using the Alpine DSP for stereo upmixing?


Not a fan of the Pro-logic up-mixer in the Alpine F1 processor and have never used it. Not a fan of steering matrix up-mixers as a whole. They create too many audible artifacts that are not in the original source. I use Perfect Surround’s VST plugin on my computer to generate the up mixed 5.1 .wav files and then I encode them into a 5.1 DTS file. These are then authored to a 5.1 24/48k DVD-video disc.
It is some work but I have it pretty streamlined by now. I used to make 5.1 DVD-audio disc but found that the Alpine F1 processor was not bass managing the center channel properly in that format.


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Hey Gary. Great to see additions to this thread. I need to ask a question out of ignorance. Why was more processing needed. Why couldn't you use the same exact signal for the driver/passenger headrest/headset?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

mitchyz250f said:


> Hey Gary. Great to see additions to this thread. I need to ask a question out of ignorance. Why was more processing needed. Why couldn't you use the same exact signal for the driver/passenger headrest/headset?


Primarily to have separate equalization on each channel. The in car response of the speakers is different at each headrest location. I am able to correct that response to conform to the target curve. So it is the same signal just equalized differently at each location.


----------



## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

garysummers said:


> Not a fan of the Pro-logic up-mixer in the Alpine F1 processor and have never used it. Not a fan of steering matrix up-mixers as a whole. They create too many audible artifacts that are not in the original source. I use Perfect Surround’s VST plugin on my computer to generate the up mixed 5.1 .wav files and then I encode them into a 5.1 DTS file. These are then authored to a 5.1 24/48k DVD-video disc.
> 
> It is some work but I have it pretty streamlined by now. I used to make 5.1 DVD-audio disc but found that the Alpine F1 processor was not bass managing the center channel properly in that format.




Wow. Yeah that sounds like a lot of work but I'm sure Perfect Sound is way better than Pro Logic II.

I thought you were using the H800 for awhile. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## aroonkl (May 21, 2017)

Only use a Dayton 10" subwoofer for entire system?


garysummers said:


> Rear subwoofers officially retired.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

aroonkl said:


> Only use a Dayton 10" subwoofer for entire system?


Yes and very happy with the results. Zero regrets!


----------



## aroonkl (May 21, 2017)

Now I am very curious. How is output of shallow 10" keep up with the rest of system? Some systems here go with 2/10"-12" full size subs. Could you detail how is the output or dynamic of your Dayton sub please?


garysummers said:


> Yes and very happy with the results. Zero regrets!


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

IMHO the biggest contributor to the improved low end playback in my car is moving the sub from the rear to the front.
I can speak to this confidently as for some time I was able to A/B, instantly compare the front sub to the rear sub. Both front and back locations were fully tuned for comparisons. The majors sonic differences were, bass clarity and coherence. Focus is another word thrown around. The sound stage as a whole now images in the front and this is true even when I play 5.1 material. The bass is now all centered to the back of the dash. Does it hit hard, yes. I attribute a lot of that to the coherent wave front be created. Does it hit as hard as if you had three 10" in the dash, No. but then again I'm not trying to brake my ribs.


----------



## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Gary,

What frequency range are you running the Tang Band's in?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

mitchyz250f said:


> Gary,
> 
> What frequency range are you running the Tang Band's in?


I am currently running this Tang Band module on each headrest pair.





TX1-1815SM - 1" Alum. runway shape with grill full range module - TB SPEAKER CO., LTD.







www.tb-speaker.com




They are high pass filtered at [email protected]/oct in the CDSP 8X12.
They are very small and at such a close distance require very little power.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Originally was running Morel Supremo MW6 woofers in the 9.8 liter sealed enclosures on my front doors. $1500 a pair! Sounded great!
Pulled those woofers out and installed the Morel CAW634 woofers. $300 a pair! Sounded great!
Pulled those woofers and have installed the Dayton Audio LW150-4 woofers. $106 a pair! Sounds great!
The woofers are playing from 71Hz to 210Hz with the slopes at 24db/oct HP and 24db/oct LP. 150 watts per woofer!
Each time required very little re-tuning. The efficiency of the CAW643 and the Dayton are very close.
Alexander from Russia handled the aluminum work with ease.
The system has never sounded better. Just ordered a set to replace the rear woofers.


----------



## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Would love to take a listen, been a little bit. Hope to catch up.


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

^^^^

That just goes to show that some car audio truths don't die ... 

Overall system design, install and tuning is STILL more important then any given single piece of equipment, including drivers as long as they are being used within their given parameters and limitations.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

papasin said:


> Would love to take a listen, been a little bit. Hope to catch up.


If you have an event close by I will try to attend. I miss the GTGs!! 
The system is all new.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

papasin said:


> Would love to take a listen, been a little bit. Hope to catch up.


Same...



garysummers said:


> If you have an event close by I will try to attend. I miss the GTGs!!
> The system is all new.


and same. 

Gary, I think you're doing it wrong. Aren't we supposed to be spending MORE money on gear with each iteration?


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

> Gary, I think you're doing it wrong. Aren't we supposed to be spending MORE money on gear with each iteration?


I went that way as you know.! Achieved very good results IMHO. Now I am trying it a different way. Achieving very good results IMHO.


----------



## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Man…I remember listening to this thing back in 2013 or 14….out by Riverside I think. It was amazing then…if it’s better now I don’t wanna hear it again. It’ll just bum me out when I get in my own car. lol


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

A little update.
After a bit of tuning and a lot of listening, I would not hesitate to say the low end in my Benz is the best it has ever been.
The Dayton mid basses are here to stay. Amazing little speaker.
The combined low end is coherent. dynamic, and digs low. Moving the sub to the front has been a game changer as far as getting the bass to blend from all five channels.
A couple all pass filters were a big help too!


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Man I so want to see / hear / feel this system in person. Being retired I am willing to fly to where it is located lol.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Another update! I already posted some of this in PC build category but I thought I would add it here. When Covid hit and they shut down the movie industry, I had some time on my hands.
I decided it was time to get off discs in my car. I had been playing DVD's to be able to play discreet 5.1 high resolution files in the car. To get off discs I had to find a way to play these hi-rez files I have.
Two methods came up. The first was to take the HDMI output of a computer and feed it to an HDMI de-embedder. The de-embedder outputs the converted analog audio up to 7.1, with a resolution of 24bit/192khz. The other option was to use a computer with an internal sound card, covert the hi-rez audio through the card and output again up to 7.1-24bit/192khz. I have many 5.1 Hi-resolution files and wanted to be able to play them at full resolution. USB AND OPTICAL DO NOT HAVE THE BANDWIDTH TO PLAY THESE FILES!
So I chose to build a Windows 10 Pro PC with an Asus Essence STX II 7.1 sound card and put it in my trunk. Since I had moved the subwoofer to the front I had plenty of room for this endeavor.







Mini-Itx format Windows 10 Pro with 2.5TB's of storage (2TB SATA SSD and 500GB M2 SSD Boot drive) and 16GB of ram (2X8 GB Dual Channel). Running an
Intel Core I7-9700k 3.6GHz 8-Core processor. Utilizing a Mini-Box M4-ATX 250 watt 12 volt power supply.
I originally was using a EVGA Nu Audio sound card as it sounded the best of all the cards I tested. Unfortunately it is not built very well and the RCA's began to fail, as in become intermittent. You can build the best sounding audio device in the world but if it does not last, it's junk! The Alpine F1 gear that was replaced ran flawlessly for 13 years in the trunk of the Benz. So I went with my second choice, the Asus card.
The 5.1 analog output from the Asus sound card feeds the six analog inputs of a MiniDSP 8X12 which handles all the DSP duties for the front stage,(Left, Center, Right, Sub), and outputs the left rear, right rear analog signals to a second MiniDSP 8X12. This MiniDSP 8x12 handles all the DSP duties for the rear mid basses and the 8 headrest mounted speakers.
The output of the two MiniDSP's are fed to five Audiocontrol ACM 4.300 amplifiers and one ACX 300.1 amplifier. This was all going to be mounted in a box and installed where the subwoofer had been. I needed to make sure it would fit and that I would be able to access all the components and related wiring for servicing and tuning. So I decided to learn very basic CAD design and build the device in 3D first to make sure it would work.
These are several 2D renders of the final design. They show ever component minus the wiring.




















Once I had the design in 3D Cad I could have the box components cut on a CNC machine. Talk about precise and clean. Took about 15 minutes! Used 13ply Baltic Birch.
Scott Babson did all the construction and vinyl work. So I built the system in the box and set it up in my living room so that I could see and hear it work before trying to put it in the car.
I even put the speakers I am using in temporary enclosures and set the 5.1 system up in the house. I wanted to make sure EVERTHING worked before putting it in the car. That included the Windows PC, all the audio components, the two Liliput 10" touchscreen computer monitors as well as the Music application software to manage the files. This took about a month and a half to get it all debugged and quiet!







Once I was convinced it was working it was mounted in the trunk. Scott Babson had made the proper steel mounts to secure the box in the trunk.




















System has been up and running for about 3 months now and it never sounded better. Certainly not missing all those DVDs falling between my seats,
I am using the JRiver Music Center application to handle the music files. It has a learning curve but I try not to get in too deep. Just trying to play a song!
I was able to use the CAD skills to have a lot of the small build components 3D printed in ABS. Now I have to do everything in CAD. It is really quite an amazing tool.
I am only a beginner and use Tinkercad, but it does everything I need it to and I can design something now very quickly. I designed all the speaker grill work in the car
and have had Alexander in Russia create all the aluminum work. We have done six projects together. I send him the CAD file and within 20 minutes he is sending me
mechanical drawings ready to manufacture.
So that's the latest, some details left out but that's the jist of it.


----------



## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Phenomenal evolution of your system! Fantastic progression from problem, concept, rendering, testing, execution - very well done! Thank you for giving those details so others may glean useful ideas for their systems. I love the use of dual MiniDSP 8x12DLs! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

bertholomey said:


> Phenomenal evolution of your system! Fantastic progression from problem, concept, rendering, testing, execution - very well done! Thank you for giving those details so others may glean useful ideas for their systems. I love the use of dual MiniDSP 8x12DLs!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thank you for your kind words! The MiniDSP's are not the Dirac versions. I looked at that option and saw Erin's review. I felt I had enough to chew on with the system without adding another level of complexity. I may look at adding that option in the future.


----------



## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

garysummers said:


> Thank you for your kind words! The MiniDSP's are not the Dirac versions. I looked at that option and saw Erin's review. I felt I had enough to chew on with the system without adding another level of complexity. I may look at adding that option in the future.


So funny! I was thinking about that - was going to PM you to ask, but then a war and everything else ‘got my attention’ 

A group of us have been using Dirac effectively and have a good deal of experience with it. If you ever get to that point - certainly feel free to send a message (though you would likely figure out more than we know in about an hour of messing around with it). Again, extraordinary job pushing the boundaries of what is possible in a car!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## MajorNoob (May 10, 2018)

edit: found the answer to my question, mods please delete the post.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Small update to the system.
Wanted to try a different woofer in the sealed enclosures on my front doors.
The Dayton woofer sounded very good, but I wanted to try a woofer better suited for a sealed enclosure.
I chose a Seas woofer. 








SEAS Prestige L16RNX 6" Aluminum Cone Woofer (H1488-04) - 4 ohm


6” High Fidelity aluminum cone woofer with an injection molded metal chassis, intended for bass reflex and transmission line designs.




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com




It definitely sounds better. A bit more dynamic and articulate.
Again Alexander in Russia handled the Aluminum work.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Another update to the system. So I originally had done a comparison of PCIe internal sound cards for my in car PC. The winner hands down was the EVGA Nu Audio Pro 7.1 sound card. I was auditioning the different sound cards through my home McIntosh system. The EVGA card in it's stock form produced an amazing soundstage with width, depth and super detail. The problem with the card however was that PCB mount RCAs were used in the build which proved to be problematic. Within two weeks the left and right RCAs had become unusable. I then switched to the Asus Essence STX ii 7.1 sound card and swapped the 9 stock op-amps for the Muses02 op-amps. Sounded excellent. Since that time I have upgraded the RCAs on the EVGA sound card and it is working flawlessly. I also replaced the 3 swappable dual op-amps with the Burson Audio V5I op-amps. After 100 hours of burn in as Burson suggests the sound is amazing. The best the car has ever sounded!! The EVGA card is a noticeable improvement to what the Asus card was producing sonically.
I was told by several very well known audio engineers in the film industry that swapping op-amps is snake oil. I BEG TO DIFFER!! Pictures do not show the Burson Op-amps


----------

