# The History of Horns



## DanMan

Who came up with the first under dash horns? Was it Eric Stevens in his Sable? Gallery - Image Dynamics Forums






There were a handful of companies making under dash horns. Veritas, CrossFire. USD and Image Dynamics of course. I believe Audiobahn blatantly ripped of ID at one point.

Please don't tell me to search. I am just trying to get this sub-forum going.


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## Mic10is

I think Speakerworks was actually 1st, followed fairly close behind by Eric at ID.
then Veritas.
after that there were a bunch of random companies, Protech, Crystal, Crossfire, etc...
Aduiobahn version was so short lived bc it was a direct rip off of Erics horn design that it isnt worth mentioning


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## fish

Mic10is said:


> I think Speakerworks was actually 1st, followed fairly close behind by Eric at ID.
> then Veritas.
> after that there were a bunch of random companies, Protech, Crystal, Crossfire, etc...
> Aduiobahn version was so short lived bc it was a direct rip off of Erics horn design that it isnt worth mentioning



When did Speakerworks come out with their horns? Mid to late 80's?


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## req

more pics of old school horn installs are needed!!


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## BigRed

Speakerworks was the first. Go to their website. Lots of info there


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## NewOldGuy

Has anyone ever heard the OP's original list of horns (Veritas, CrossFire. USD and Image Dynamics) at the same time (or competition) do describe the difference in sound? I have never heard any horns so i guess I'm assuming that like conventional cone speakers that there is a difference.

Also, are the Veritas still around?


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## Horsemanwill

i remember when horns first came out i think it was CA&E that did a side by side review of them


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## fredswain

I just spent the past hour writing a huge response that didn't go through!!! Ahhhh! 

I worked with Matt Borgardt from Image Dynamics in Houston at Audio Designs in the 90's. We were the 2 custom installers. I heard nearly every big competition horn car of the day and worked on several of them so when I get a chance I'll retype it all.


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## subwoofery

fredswain said:


> I just spent the past hour writing a huge response that didn't go through!!! Ahhhh!
> 
> I worked with Matt Borgardt from Image Dynamics in Houston at Audio Designs in the 90's. We were the 2 custom installers. I heard nearly every big competition horn car of the day and worked on several of them so when I get a chance I'll retype it all.


Next time you have a seriously long post, copy all just in case something happens. 

Welcome to DIYMA
Kelvin


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## ncv6coupe

^^waiting for this.


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## subwoofery

richellemedina said:


> Instruments made from animal horns existed since ancient times - they were mainly used as signaling devices. The horn as a musical instrument that exists for hundreds of years.
> 
> *Link removed*


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## trojan fan

Speakerworks was the inventor of the WaveGuide (Patented) giant Mid/tweets that are underdash mounted. These were first used in the Speaker Works Buick Grand National back in 1986. Richard Clark had a lot to do with it also. Eric did not come into the picture until way down the road


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## fredswain

Waveguides were "patent pending" to discourage others. A provisional patent is good for one year and once a provisional is granted you can state "patent pending". You can get a provisional on literally anything. It doesn't mean you'll be granted a patent though. You have to apply for the patent. A provisional is not a patent application. It bascially states that you have an idea that you are working on that may be submitted for a patent. It also gives you a legal verification of the first time you registered the idea as original. They weren't patented however. Yes they were first though.


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## trojan fan

Speakersworks design was issued a patent for THEIR design.....do your homework


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## fredswain

Edit: I apparently stand corrected. The accucurve design of the horn was apparently granted a U.S. patent although I can't find the patent number. Of course that was over 20 years ago but no one is in danger of copying them anymore anyways. Interestingly enough "accucurve" is a registered trademark of Timex and refers to a talking oral thermometer!


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## trojan fan

Hey bud. a patent is only good for 20 years... horns are not relevant today anyway... call speakerworks if you need more info, Iam out of piss, so don't start with me


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## Horsemanwill

if horns are not relevant then why is this board here?


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## fredswain

trojan fan said:


> Hey bud. a patent is only good for 20 years... horns are not relevant today anyway... call speakerworks if you need more info, Iam out of piss, so don't start with me


What the hell did I do to you besides cordially respond to you? There was no attitude associated with my response, merely clarification. I tried to "do my homework" as you suggested and couldn't find a patent number either on Speakerworks website or in the U.S. patent records. It doesn't mean it isn't there though. My small search just didn't find it. I know Eric (Holdaway) isn't a liar though and if he says accucurve was patented I believe him, hence me responding by saying I stand corrected. Where was the attitude problem with that? I've spoken to Eric many times both on the phone and on the competition circuit back in the 90's and I have only ever found him to be a very honest and informative person so I have no reason to doubt him.

As to your last sentence, or what?


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## trojan fan

O wait. it is relevant to maybe 1% of the peeps on this forum,after 5 plus years there is finally a section to post threads. I see your love for horns is very endearing. No disrespect , just stating facts


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## Eric Stevens

DanMan said:


> Who came up with the first under dash horns? Was it Eric Stevens in his Sable? Gallery - Image Dynamics Forums
> 
> There were a handful of companies making under dash horns. Veritas, CrossFire. USD and Image Dynamics of course. I believe Audiobahn blatantly ripped of ID at one point.
> 
> Please don't tell me to search. I am just trying to get this sub-forum going.


The first vehicle to use under dash horns was the Buick GN built by SW. I believe the year was '87 or '88.

Next SW started to sell horns but required install by them and a signed non disclosure agreement about '91/92. In '92/93 they launched the "USD Waveguide" for sale through dealers. 

I competed with our horns in '92 before I had even come up with the name Image Dynamics. We started selling the original CD1 in early 1993.

After that there were several others that came and went.

Eric 
Image Dynamics


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## trojan fan

Exactly Eric. thanks for your well informed post


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## Eric Stevens

AFAIK The patent applied for on the USD Waveguide was for the design of the rotomount, not sure if it was actually ever awarded an official patent but that's very easy to research. 

To get a utility patent on a horn is impossible because there is so much prior art over many many years. 

Eric
Image Dynamics


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## fredswain

Hey Eric good to see you still around! Tell Matt hi. That should send a shiver down his spine!


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## TXwrxWagon

trojan fan said:


> O wait. it is relevant to maybe 1% of the peeps on this forum,after 5 plus years there is finally a section to post threads. I see your love for horns is very endearing. No disrespect , just stating facts


sorry but your attitude is the issue. You don't have every answer & a lil humility, not kissing Eric S.'s ass will go a long way.

Rob


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## TXwrxWagon

Eric Stevens said:


> AFAIK The patent applied for on the USD Waveguide was for the design of the rotomount, not sure if it was actually ever awarded an official patent but that's very easy to research.
> 
> To get a utility patent on a horn is impossible because there is so much prior art over many many years.
> 
> Eric
> Image Dynamics


Eric, you are correct. From back in the day, the roto-mount was indeed the key to the patent. If there was any chance of a patent for the horn design itself, well Kilpsch & 100's of other home/pro manufacturer's would have something to say about that.

funny thing was the roto-mount added some interesting reflections/cancellations in the throat... go figure...

Rob


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## NewOldGuy

I've done some searching here and on other forums and have tried to find the CA&E article. Not much luck. Can anyone can help me find a good search "key word(s)" or possible a website on the difference in sound and set up between the main horns available (ID, USD, Vertias, etc.)? Or if someone (fredswain?) can post a description on their differences that would be appriecated too....thanks!


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## fredswain

I need to go see if I still have that magazine issue. I had it for years. If I got rid of it, it would have been within the last 6 months as I cleaned out many things. Some of them I wish I hadn't have gotten rid of and I'm not sure why I got rid of some of them.

I only personally have experience with both Image horns and the USD's. I have never used the old Crystal, Illusion, or Veritas horns but I have heard all of them. If I can't find that issue, I'll try to recount what I remember of them.


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## Patrick Bateman

Horsemanwill said:


> i remember when horns first came out i think it was CA&E that did a side by side review of them


I remember that article. IIRC, they lauded them for a strong center image, but complained about stage width. It was actually CA&E that got me into horns in general, in particular an interview with Richard Clark where he was doing his best imitation of Peter Aczel*. It was a breath of fresh air, since I was starting to disagree with a lot of the tweako nonsense and needed a little "push" to leave the subjective crowd and start thinking objectively.

* http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf


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## fredswain

The entire article seemed pretty biased against horns. It was pretty clear that the author didn't really like horns. It compared 3 or 4 different styles to each other and pretty much insulted certain ones less than others but ended up calling the ID horns the winner. About the only truly good thing it said about them was that the imaging was nice. It went on to show frequency response against a Boehlender Graebner (or however you spell that) planar ribbon and talked about how much nicer it sounded then the horns. The author was clearly in favor of using them instead of horns even though the imaging wasn't there with them. At least that's what I got out of the article. There was still some good info to it comparing notes from one horn to the other but you have to look past the bias to see it.


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## fredswain

I still have all of my old magazines! There were 2 CA&E articles in 1995 on horns. When I get a chance I'll scan them and save them as pdf files. I also have many other magazine issues that have horn installs in various vehicles from several different horn manufacturers. I thought they were all gone. I'm glad they aren't. I don't know if CA&E is around anymore or any of the other magazines for that matter but I hope scanning and posting 15+ year old articles isn't going to be an issue.


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## Eric Stevens

I have them scanned and they were on our forums. I will report them if not still there. 

There was two articles the introduction and then a test.

Eric


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## Eric Stevens

http://www.imagedynamicsusa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=1023

Here is the article with the test of the three brands of horns. Veritas, Protech, and Image Dynamics. USD refused the test after confirming they would take part. 

Eric
Image Dynamics


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## JayinMI

I don't have proper permissions to view it. 

Jay


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## req

interesting read, but it did not really clarify what the "install" was and any stuff they did to make sure they were installed optimally. pictures of thier work would have been helpful hehe.


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## Horsemanwill

right click and download the file.


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## [email protected]

Jay, just sign up for the ID forum ..


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## [email protected]

Thanks for the flashback Eric. Nice to read reviews where the reviewer didn't seem too concerned with offending an advertiser...


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## Eric Stevens

Here it is hosted on DIYMA.


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## Eric Stevens

req said:


> interesting read, but it did not really clarify what the "install" was and any stuff they did to make sure they were installed optimally. pictures of thier work would have been helpful hehe.


If memory is right, Skip Fitch of StreetNoyz in San Diego helped with the install when he was the Head Installer for MobileWorks. 

Car was some sort of Chevrolet.

Eric


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## NewOldGuy

Eric,

Thank you for posting the old CA&E!!! Greatly appreciated!

After reading the review, I was curious about the difference in the horn materials (may be getting a bit off topic from the OP). Does the type of materal that the horn body is made of and the thickness of the material used have an effect on the sound of the horns?


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## subwoofery

NewOldGuy said:


> Eric,
> 
> Thank you for posting the old CA&E!!! Greatly appreciated!
> 
> After reading the review, I was curious about the difference in the horn materials (may be getting a bit off topic from the OP). Does the type of materal that the horn body is made of and the thickness of the material used have an effect on the sound of the horns?


Material doesn't matter as long as the curves are smooth (no notch) and the horn body doesn't resonate. 

Kelvin


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## fredswain

Eric Stevens said:


> USD refused the test after confirming they would take part.


This was really strange considering they were mentioned in the forward editorial and they even had a full page ad that was placed in that article. I always thought that was weird. I wonder why they refused?


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## req

it still strikes me as odd that they did not document anything about how they were put in said vehicle. they just said that they were in there and thats it.

seems kind of strange to me i suppose


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## Patrick Bateman

fredswain said:


> This was really strange considering they were mentioned in the forward editorial and they even had a full page ad that was placed in that article. I always thought that was weird. I wonder why they refused?


If I had a full page ad for one of my products in a magazine, and I found out that the test results sucked, I would pull my ad.

This is why Stereophile makes me nuts, because the measured results are often in COMPLETE disagreement with the subjective evaluation. They have evaluated tons of speakers that measure like **** yet still get good reviews. Do the math - the subjective evaluations are rigged.

I *do* appreciate the fact that they're honest in their objective measurements, and John Atkinson should be commended for this.


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## Navy Chief

I feel like I don't belong with some of the great company in this thread, however strangely I may have some input as to the Pro-Tech Time Lense. I worked at Pro-Tech during the time this article came out, I was just a lackey high school kid that did anything for discount equipment, but ending up building quite a few horns. All the horns that ever came out of PJs (Pro-Tech) were all hand built out of glass, they never produced enough to go to plastic like many of the others. This is merely my opinion but during those days there was a pretty heavy rivalry between Speakerworks (USD) and PJs (Pro-Tech), they were the only two shops with there own big speaker lines. USD may have pulled out to not have to go head to head with Pro-Tech, again just my opinion. The interesting thing about all of this is I have a pair of USD waveguides in the garage for my next project if that tells you anything. Also to req in VA Beach, I would love to get in touch with people in the area that actually know what they are doing.


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## Mic10is

Navy Chief said:


> I feel like I don't belong with some of the great company in this thread, however strangely I may have some input as to the Pro-Tech Time Lense. I worked at Pro-Tech during the time this article came out, I was just a lackey high school kid that did anything for discount equipment, but ending up building quite a few horns. All the horns that ever came out of PJs (Pro-Tech) were all hand built out of glass, they never produced enough to go to plastic like many of the others. This is merely my opinion but during those days there was a pretty heavy rivalry between Speakerworks (USD) and PJs (Pro-Tech), they were the only two shops with there own big speaker lines. USD may have pulled out to not have to go head to head with Pro-Tech, again just my opinion. The interesting thing about all of this is I have a pair of USD waveguides in the garage for my next project if that tells you anything. Also to req in VA Beach, I would love to get in touch with people in the area that actually know what they are doing.



Thanks for the response.
Ive heard from a few people that used to hang out with the PJs crew back in the day, that the horn mold was a 2x4 and a broomstick handle...
any truth to that?


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## Horsemanwill

whenever i hear ProTech i recall that concrete cougar man that thing was a major inspiration for me.


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## Navy Chief

I agree that Bud Wentz's (spelling) cougar was very unique, it had F-150 suspension and rear axle to support that box. I always wonder what happened to some of those cars, I know Drew bought some of them (Greg Cassis Typhoon and Tony Dionisis Vette (spelling again). I do not recall any 2x4 and broom stick, the mold was fairly complex built in a reverse mold using 2 part epoxy then hand sanded, then we used a spray on mold release after waxing the mold. I will say the shack of a garage we built them in was pretty shabby though.


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## yeldak99

Navy Chief said:


> Also to req in VA Beach, I would love to get in touch with people in the area that actually know what they are doing.


There are only a handful of us down here. Unfortunately.... or fortunately depending on how you look at it.


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## Navy Chief

I'll take it as fortunately, I am 32 and can officially say I have been doing this half my life. I would much rather have a few people around that know what they are talking about than a whole big group of stupid people. The above statement is why I rarely go to any shops in this area.


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## Mic10is

Navy Chief said:


> I'll take it as fortunately, I am 32 and can officially say I have been doing this half my life. I would much rather have a few people around that know what they are talking about than a whole big group of stupid people. The above statement is why I rarely go to any shops in this area.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/12-volt-events-team-diyma/94188-blacksburg-va-sq-meet-greet.html


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## yeldak99

Navy Chief said:


> I'll take it as fortunately, I am 32 and can officially say I have been doing this half my life. I would much rather have a few people around that know what they are talking about than a whole big group of stupid people. The above statement is why I rarely go to any shops in this area.


I've dealt with the 2 biggest..... and wouldn't recommend them to anyone. 

The first.... GH we'll say, as a young 3rd class back in 01. I gave them $4500 for one of the worst installs I've ever seen. With used equipment (even though I was charged for new stuff), wiring was cheap power wire in red/yellow that comes on a spool at autozone, and the best was Q-logic kick panels that were held in place with double sided tape (no screws other htan to hold the speakers in the plastic).

And then DAS.... I picked up a Linear Power 5002 off Craigslist for ridiculously cheap, wanted to have it tested without having to unhook some stuff in my car.. I offered the "installer" (MECP certified BTW) $15 just to hook it up and make sure it worked. He grabbed it and said this looks like some cheap flea market amp, why would you even want to use this........


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## Patrick Bateman

fredswain said:


> The entire article seemed pretty biased against horns. It was pretty clear that the author didn't really like horns. It compared 3 or 4 different styles to each other and pretty much insulted certain ones less than others but ended up calling the ID horns the winner. About the only truly good thing it said about them was that the imaging was nice. It went on to show frequency response against a Boehlender Graebner (or however you spell that) planar ribbon and talked about how much nicer it sounded then the horns. The author was clearly in favor of using them instead of horns even though the imaging wasn't there with them. At least that's what I got out of the article. There was still some good info to it comparing notes from one horn to the other but you have to look past the bias to see it.


I remember seeing those at Speaker City in Burbank, about thirteen yrs ago. For $360, a pair of these would likely outperform it:

BG, Neo10

Same company, but these are made overseas if I'm not mistaken. (the ones that PWM raved over were made in the USA)


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