# Low shelf filter or cabin gain filter for a car?



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Hi all,

I tried to search on google already, but, you know my search skillz are for poop, so forgive the question. If my tests tomorrow still show a huge 12db drop after 50Hz, it seems it would make sense to look for a low-shelf filter to cut frequencies starting at around 55Hz and lower. From my earlier tests it seems like a pretty consistent gain at 50Hz and below of around 12db. And that's a pretty steep slope at 50-60Hz to try and "tune" out with conventional high/low pass filter methods. I was thinking of trying to design a deep filter for a midbass that would compensate for this sharp acoustic slope. But then I started thinking about other types of EQ filters and remembered that a low shelf filter would be a pretty good way to treat this acoustical demon that haunts my Nissan Sentra. 

I would like to know if there is a product available to allow for variable low shelf filtering. Or if there is a variable filter designed to combat cabin gain like mine. I think that could be useful for a lot of people who don't own or aren't ready to buy a pricey electronic sound processor. A simple active filter like this I figure wouldn't be hard to design and sell cheap.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

A shelving EQ has no place in car audio. That's a job for a xover.

You should have searched first.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

SO for all of your truly scientific testing and in house calculating of various things...have you gone outside...completed your system...and just tuned it like the rest of us who actually go out and do things for real instead of just theorizing and so forth. Its amazing you haven't found anything on this because although this magical thing called cabin gain exists...most of us use it to our advantage. its not that big of a problem. Seriously..I'm not trying to be a big ass here other than to say...go finish your install quit messing with meters and Dmm's and go setup your system and just listen to it...you are over complicating the crap out of this... 
But on a side note...the steepest shelve filters in a caraudio are ususally 24db/octave and a FEW 36...you could always go get a Lake Contour MESA or something like that for quite a few thousand G"s and do brick wall filters... But alas it is not needed..use the cabin gain...use that natural roll on and roll of of cabin gain. Our ears naturally need more bass response...dont get rid of it..use it to your advantage...dont chase your own tale when you don't know yet if the tale is bad or not..


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Everything he said, plus I challenge you to prove that you're a real person with innocent, however retarded, questions.

I say you're a psychologist or lawyer doing some field studies.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

guitarsail said:


> SO for all of your truly scientific testing and in house calculating of various things...have you gone outside...completed your system...and just tuned it like the rest of us who actually go out and do things for real instead of just theorizing and so forth. Its amazing you haven't found anything on this because although this magical thing called cabin gain exists...most of us use it to our advantage. its not that big of a problem. Seriously..I'm not trying to be a big ass here other than to say...go finish your install quit messing with meters and Dmm's and go setup your system and just listen to it...you are over complicating the crap out of this...
> But on a side note...the steepest shelve filters in a caraudio are ususally 24db/octave and a FEW 36...you could always go get a Lake Contour MESA or something like that for quite a few thousand G"s and do brick wall filters... But alas it is not needed..use the cabin gain...use that natural roll on and roll of of cabin gain. Our ears naturally need more bass response...dont get rid of it..use it to your advantage...dont chase your own tale when you don't know yet if the tale is bad or not..


Man, it is rather useless to ask questions here at this point. You guys obviously don't know what a shelf filter is for cripes sake and you're going to put me down?

Here is a shelf filter:









That is not a high-pass or a low pass. It's a SHELF! Jesus. If you guys don't know what you're talking about just don't post, and certainly don't criticize. I'm sick of your retardation. The DMM thread was just an example of you guys' stupidity and arrogance. I posted FACTS and detailed explanations to qualify my statements only to have them ignored and then watch as some dipshits try and mock me. Get a clue guys. If you don't know what someone asked, just please stay out of the thread!

And to talk about cabin gain, I want to use midbasses up front to augment frequencies at 60Hz to 100Hz so that the overall sound matches up with the cabin gain, but I STILL would need a bit of filtering on the lowest end and a shelf filter would be an ideal tool in this case.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> If you guys don't know what you're talking about just don't post


Maybe you should take your own advice.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> Maybe you should take your own advice.


Maybe you should butt out. 

Only on a forum like this would someone not get a straight answer and instead get insulted. This goes straight back to what I've said about "popularity". I'm not socially popular on this board, so people take cheap shots at me that aren't warranted nor are they useful to anyone else reading the threads. If you've got something to ADD to the thread that is useful, then by all means, add it. Otherwise just stay out of it.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

I know damn good and well what a shelving EQ is.

It's useless in car audio since anyone who's seen an FR graph and trusts their 2 eyes knows that irregularities is FR come in peaks and dips. Not shelves. 

If you speaker doesn't like playing that large a range, don't let it.


No a google search doesn't say "a shelving filter is useless in car audio" just like it doesn't say "getting kicked in the nuts real hard hurts real bad!"


What's up with the challenge?


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

icehole said:


> I know damn good and well what a shelving EQ is.


You do now. I just showed you. In your earlier post you compared my question about a 'shelf' filter to a highpass filter. I think you are trying to make it look like you know more than I do about everything, but I don't think you do.



> It's useless in car audio since anyone who's seen an FR graph and trusts their 2 eyes knows that irregularities is FR come in peaks and dips. Not shelves.
> 
> If you speaker doesn't like playing that large a range, don't let it.
> 
> ...


I have pretty good data that shows an acoustic response that looks pretty damn much like a fricken SHELF filter, so why the hell wouldn't I apply a shelf filter to fix it? Hmm? I guess logic and reason have escaped your narrow focus on trying to attack me. You're a douche and need to shut up.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Maybe this is the answer you're looking for
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/login.php?do=logout&logouthash=1228535886-8fd08b7ac55dfeb1939d936cdf6ce60b3423547a


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> I have pretty good data that shows an acoustic response that looks pretty damn much like a fricken SHELF filter, so why the hell wouldn't I apply a shelf filter to fix it? Hmm? I guess logic and reason have escaped your narrow focus on trying to attack me. You're a douche and need to shut up.


You're gonna have to come up with more than "pretty good data" to get a car audio company to design a product for one *******, Mr. NumbersBoner.

If you really want, you may be able to adapt a recording EQ for use in the car if you'd rather do that than take some real advice.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Man, it is rather useless to ask questions here at this point.


Then stop.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> Man, it is rather useless to ask questions here at this point. You guys obviously don't know what a shelf filter is for cripes sake and you're going to put me down?
> 
> Here is a shelf filter:
> 
> ...


Haha typical spence...I said the best shelf (meaning closest to a true shelf) is maybe 36db. I only know of one company with a TRUE shelf...a brick wall shelf like I said and thats the Lake Contour guys.. THe problem with a shelf though...your cabin gain isnt a freakin shelf...it is not a infinite db/octave gain at X freq. It is a slope. Quite pissing and moaning at me about what is and isn't go out to your damn car and put it together..then listen...just listen to your system...a SHELF filter will not help...you need to quit trying to get rid of problems before your system is ever done...and learn how to use what you have. At the most all you need is a GOOD and TRUE parametrik EQ. One that you can sweep the Freq, adjust the gain, and adjust your Q. Cabin gain again is not a infinite/db per octave phenomenon. Contrary to your 31band RTA or your ears and test tones or whatever you are using to test tells you...Unless of course you are using SMAART or god forbid you got your hands on a Meyer SIM or even worse TEF machine...And please before you come at me with you don't even know what shelf is, please go back and reread our previous discussions...I do sound for a living for the billionth time. I was also trying to help in the above...and again I say...shelf filter is not what you need...at all...get off the PC and go actually fiddle and play with a finished install...its amazing what you can get with non sofisticated gear and good ears and the most important...A GOOD FUNDAMENTAL INSTALL!!!!


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

Tspence, somebody already gave the answer - don't use a shelf filter, use a crossover. Why do you always have to act like an @$$?


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> and a shelf filter would be an ideal tool in this case.


Please, tspence, teach us more!

I still don't understand why you waste your time asking questions, when you already know everything. Drop the pretense and please just enlighten us.

Shelf filters, rear 6x9 enclosures to protect from VBA, sensitivity matched midbass and mids, I am learning so much. Please continue.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I feel it's a very legitimate question and he's touching on something that I swear by. I build car enclosures to go low, I DON'T build the enclosure around the car's natural boost. I would rather REDUCE the power to the sub enclosure to compensate for natural gain than throw power at an in-efficient enclosure that is still huffing along. Andy and others have touched on this several times also and it's a thing in car audio that will never be agreed upon. I use the amplifier's subsonic filter and one filter in the alpine to build a shelving filter to compensate for the car. This gives a great amount of headroom int he lower octaves due to the fact that you are essentially reducing gain the lower you go. I firmly believe this is why I have gotten by with relatively low amounts off power on my sub channels for so long. My way of doing it is simply barbaric, and I do it by ear, But I swear it works.

Chad


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

If EQ'ing down outside the x-over range is making a shelf filter, then count me in. It seems to work very well for me.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

I couldn't agree more chad...but of course you are much more eloquent. I never use EQ's to boost anything nor design cabinets to compensate for cabin gain. Acknowledge its there, then use subsonic filters to roll off the drivers naturally. And I set everything by ear always and by golly it works great. Boosting EQ just kills headroom..but the point of my presentation is Shelf filters are not natural to what is going on in the car...and the last thing you'd use the filter/xover/ etc for is boosting...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

guitarsail said:


> I couldn't agree more chad...but of course you are much more eloquent. I never use EQ's to boost anything nor design cabinets to compensate for cabin gain. Acknowledge its there, then use subsonic filters to roll off the drivers naturally. And I set everything by ear always and by golly it works great. Boosting EQ just kills headroom..but the point of my presentation is Shelf filters are not natural to what is going on in the car...and the last thing you'd use the filter/xover/ etc for is boosting...


Shelving filters are in fact very close to what is going on in a car if you want to compensate for cabin gain, you need to find out the slope and -3 and have at it, it won't be perfect but it will be damn close. just like the OPPOSITE of the Bag-Eng rigs we were talking about earlier


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

But its not a infinite db/ocatve slope is it? I can see steep, maybe 48db/oc but brick wall steep? I'm thinking it could be taken care of with "shelf" filters like in a meyer Galileo processor but thats not even a infinite slop, but those are perfect for this. Its just real steep not a real shelf filter. I'm giving you the ol stink eye, haha. Thats why I like me parametrik EQ's, sweep it to the cabin gain freq, adjust your Q accordingly and pull it out some...but with galileo or similar (lake contour, etc) you can just see it on a screen and so forth...I'm just not convinced its a brick wall shelf but a steep filter....am I wrong here??  Hey i reserve the right to be wrong, I love to learn


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Well, very few processors have shelving that acts as a true brick wall, you and I both know that, and YOU are looking too deep into it. But look at the LF EQ on your console in the manual and likely indeed you will find it as a shelving filter with a fixed Q on the cut side  

By definition a shelving filter is NOT a brick wall but CAN be, it's a filter that acts (for lack of a better phrase) as a high pass filter.

Spence got cocky and drew the wrong picture, it's not too tough to see that. But givent he benefit of the doubt, a shelving filter is VERY effective VERY often


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

chad said:


> Well, very few processors have shelving that acts as a true brick wall, you and I both know that, and YOU are looking too deep into it. But look at the LF EQ on your console in the manual and likely indeed you will find it as a shelving filter with a fixed Q on the cut side
> 
> By definition a shelving filter is NOT a brick wall but CAN be, it's a filter that acts (for lack of a better phrase) as a high pass filter.


Well yeah sure it is a shelf with a fixed Q, but when he popped up the diagram with a "you dumbasses don't know what a shelf is" and showed a picture of a infinite db/oct shelf...

Low cuts, hi cuts are all shelved with fixed Q's but he popped up a true brick wall shelf...and wants to "design a deep filter for midbass" I kinda shutter at this thought haha. Where I would think he'd be better suited to just get on out to the car and try some things out...I almost feel like he went searching around on Pro Audio websites found that picture of a brick wall shelf and thought itd be perfect that he should design this thing...

I'm just quite confused why he got stuck on the brick wall shelf he pictured there for us...the electronics (digital) You couldn't do that brick wall shelf he pictured with analog components I dont think (I am no EE) the electronics to do this stuff involve ungodly algorithms in gear that is ongodly expensive and only one that I know of...the Lake contour gear, has a true shelf like he pictured... his picture is what got me...

Chad I like our talks I'm stuck with too many Video guys...stupid video guys....haha


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I think it's my patience that causes me to ignore such diagrams and blatant wrongness in lieu of a solid explanation. If I had a quarter for every person that told me I was a dumbass I wold not be here now but rather smoking the cheeb on a sailboat in the Caribbean and simply not giving a ****


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## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

I have been one of probably many who have been enjoying the antics of tspence73 Q & A. I must admit on a certain level I envy you. Typically my posts do not even get responses.

On the other hand it never ceases to amaze me that you continue to ask questions and then argue with those who try to help you. I am becoming convinced that you are in fact masquerading as a moron for the entertainment of yourself as well as others. If you are in fact for real you are one- in -a-million!

My 2 cents: Save some coin and get some Zapco DC amps. Stop messing with passive filters. Accept that you are probably not ready to be one of the few who can get results worth the effort and expense. The DC amps have both lo and hi shelf feature. You can mess with them to your hearts content.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

DanMan said:


> I have been one of probably many who have been enjoying the antics of tspence73 Q & A. I must admit on a certain level I envy you. Typically my posts do not even get responses.
> 
> On the other hand it never ceases to amaze me that you continue to ask questions and then argue with those who try to help you. I am becoming convinced that you are in fact masquerading as a moron for the entertainment of yourself as well as others. If you are in fact for real you are one- in -a-million!
> 
> My 2 cents: Save some coin and get some Zapco DC amps. Stop messing with passive filters. Accept that you are probably not ready to be one of the few who can get results worth the effort and expense. The DC amps have both lo and hi shelf feature. You can mess with them to your hearts content.


I've never heard buy a Zapco, and save some coin, in the same sentence before Haha...

Chad: You are wise and patient sir...a better man than I...I do have the sailing skills though...


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

I have to take exception here despite the fact that you gents bave explained very well that a shelf flter COULD be beneficial in an application for someone who trusts their ears.

The difference w the particular matter @ hand is that Spence came with a very specific question (does this exist in car audio), for his misunderstood application (his system), with bogus claims (his FR looks like a shelf) which could be solved with a much more simply with products that already exist. -If you want flat -12db EQ at 50-55hz and down, set your xover @ 50-55hz and mix your sub at that level. Furthermore, I personally think a wide q parametric subwoofer EQ would be a more useful tool that is readily available.

Spence's disrespectful ass DOES NOT deserve a detailed response. Perhaps for someone who may think outside the box, doesn't just blindly buy into hype, or wants to see **** with their own 2, and is willing to get their hands dirty and learn from experience. But not for some damn clown who talks all this scientific ******** only to prove an utter contempt for science when it comes to practice.


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## amapro704 (Mar 23, 2008)

chad said:


> I feel it's a very legitimate question and he's touching on something that I swear by. I build car enclosures to go low, I DON'T build the enclosure around the car's natural boost. I would rather REDUCE the power to the sub enclosure to compensate for natural gain than throw power at an in-efficient enclosure that is still huffing along. Andy and others have touched on this several times also and it's a thing in car audio that will never be agreed upon. I use the amplifier's subsonic filter and one filter in the alpine to build a shelving filter to compensate for the car. This gives a great amount of headroom int he lower octaves due to the fact that you are essentially reducing gain the lower you go. I firmly believe this is why I have gotten by with relatively low amounts off power on my sub channels for so long. My way of doing it is simply barbaric, and I do it by ear, But I swear it works.
> 
> Chad


What you are talking about there isn't a true shelf filter but more like a 2-stage filter- A true shelf filter will level off whereas yours decreases and keeps decreasing until it hits the subsonic where it starts decreasing faster. Just a lil' difference I wanted to point out.


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## amapro704 (Mar 23, 2008)

Also I will add:

tspense= argumantative regurgitator of googlefacts


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

amapro704 said:


> What you are talking about there isn't a true shelf filter but more like a 2-stage filter- A true shelf filter will level off whereas yours decreases and keeps decreasing until it hits the subsonic where it starts decreasing faster. Just a lil' difference I wanted to point out.


Very true and very much noticed in higher frequencies, but most shelving filters when utilized that low don't really flatten out unless it's very steep.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

amapro704 said:


> Also I will add:
> 
> tspense= argumantative regurgitator of googlefacts


Tspence doesn't use facts to support his arguments.



Lemme also add:

Chad's unique and extreme christ-like patience is to be admired and respected, and should be followed with most people.

...BUT at some point a child needs to be put in time-out so that he can inflect and genuinely LEARN something. Especially when that child is an adult.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

icehole said:


> Tspence doesn't use facts to support his arguments.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quote me one argument I made where I didn't present a fact(s), or at the very least, a reasoned explanation. I'll wait for the quotes. You won't find many, you'll have to dig. I don't post unless there is a thought/experience behind it or a set of facts I based it on.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

The point is, of course we use the concepts of cabin gain and shelf filters to achieve what we want. Tspizzl is actually on the right track with a lot of thoughts, but it's ridiculous that he can't accept that there are other ways to achieve the solution to his problem. Such as the tried and true ones. Turn down the gain on your f'n sub channel, in this case. The thing is, we're ALL ABOUT questioning the status quo here. But turning yourself blue in the face while making it clear you haven't tried ****, will just get a subforum dedicated to you.


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## Bluto Blutarsky (Apr 1, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> Quote me one argument I made where I didn't present a fact(s), or at the very least, a reasoned explanation. I'll wait for the quotes. You won't find many, you'll have to dig. I don't post unless there is a thought/experience behind it or a set of facts I based it on.


 Every post you make, Icehole is there to jump all over your ****. I've been reading the other threads with disbelief as you two newbs go at it. Why do either of you continue here?


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Bluto Blutarsky said:


> Every post you make, Icehole is there to jump all over your ****. I've been reading the other threads with disbelief as you two newbs go at it. Why do either of you continue here?


One quote. Quote me. Don't be general. One quote where I didn't try to present some supporting fact or reasoning. That's all. Show it or shut it.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> One quote. Quote me. Don't be general. One quote where I didn't try to present some supporting fact or reasoning. That's all. Show it or shut it.


It's not that you don't TRY, Spence. It's that you don't LISTEN and LEARN, and you question everyone but yourself.

You treat this **** like it's politics or religion.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Bluto Blutarsky said:


> Every post you make, Icehole is there to jump all over your ****. I've been reading the other threads with disbelief as you two newbs go at it. Why do either of you continue here?


:rolleyes


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

icehole said:


> It's not that you don't TRY, Spence. It's that you don't LISTEN and LEARN, and you question everyone but yourself.
> 
> You treat this **** like it's politics or religion.


I want to use the best info to come up with effective solutions. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I will hammer out a plan. I think I'm getting some good ideas while debating things out. Yeah, people try to kick me around on here, but I will have a great system when I'm finished.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> Quote me one argument I made where I didn't present a fact(s)





tspence73 said:


> I'm trying to obtain a pair of JL Audio ZR800-CW free-air midbasses but they are sold out everywhere and on backorder. Even at a place MSmith pointed me to is on backorder. It's the *only midbass besides the Hybrid Audio L8 that is truly made for a car door application*. Any other midbass and you're going to be adding onto your project will require a difficult to impossible sealed enclosure fabrication for your door. I've tried searching for infinite baffle 8" midbasses and they are RARE.


Only 2 8" midbass in existence made for use in a car door. There's a solid fact. 


tspence73 said:


> Apparently you didn't read what I wrote.* Those midbasses REQUIRE an enclosure to approach the performance of the IB's I've sited*. You can go to any of the popular 8" midbases that were reviewed on this forum. At 100Hz or so, there is a 5-10db drop for frequencies between 60-80Hz on most of them. Unless an ideal enclosure is constructed to enhance the bass response (which usually requires larger, not smaller enclosure) then your low bass will be ho hum.


Other drivers can't possibly reach the level of performance of the 2 aforementioned drivers unless used in an enclosure. Another solid fact.

You seem to have a problem with stating your opinion and theory as fact. There's a difference between the things you see as facts and things that are actually facts.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> I want to use the best info to come up with effective solutions.


If you want to get the best info and come up with effective solutions, you're gonna need to have more humility and less pride. Accept that just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean that it's untrue.


Like I said, this isn't religion or politics, it's based in hard science. There are RIGHT and WRONG ways of doing certain things.



Motherfuckers hate on you because you make bold claims and point fingers.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> Only 2 8" midbass in existence made for use in a car door. There's a solid fact.


I was going on the manufacturer's own recommended use of their products. It's very difficult to find a manufacturer that actually sells an 8" midbass specifically designed and released for an infinite baffle install. THAT is the info I used to make that statement. If you read the thread, you will find my reasonings. 



> Other drivers can't possibly reach the level of performance of the 2 aforementioned drivers unless used in an enclosure. Another solid fact.


Other drivers probably won't. If you put a driver meant for a sealed enclosure into an infinite baffle, it changes it's power handling and response. You're rolling the dice on whether it's going to be as good as a driver intended for that use. It doesn't mean that drivers don't exist that will work well in that kind of install. I noticed that people actually had to buy multiple woofers and run all kinds of performance tests just to find a handful that do well in IB. There will be some kind of loss of power handling in most cases.



> You seem to have a problem with stating your opinion and theory as fact. There's a difference between the things you see as facts and things that are actually facts.


I explained myself in that thread and came around to understand that there were some midbasses that didn't get marketed as good IB performers but after private party testing showed they could handle IB installs, I conceded the point. I don't think that makes me 'wrong', especially considering the manufacturers of those midbasses clearly state they are meant for enclosures and also intended for home audio projects. If you actually do internet searches on most of the 8-ohm "midbass" speakers in that thread, you'll find that they are actually woofers used in 2-way home stereo speakers. So, you're actually going to tell me that I should have expected that an 8" woofer meant for home audio and sold saying it goes in an enclosure would somehow perform well in IB in a car door?


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> I conceded the point. I don't think that makes me 'wrong'


It does if you stood on the **** like a damn rock.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

icehole said:


> It does if you stood on the **** like a damn rock.


It's not exactly common knowledge that a woofer meant for home audio and sold to be used in a 2-way design and intended for an enclosure would somehow work for a car door IB. Sorry if I didn't know that at the time when doing a specific search for CAR AUDIO MIDBASSES.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

That's the error in your thinking.

"Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it untrue"

You're not the most experienced person out there, so don't make bold ass claims on **** that you don't know for FACT.

That you changed your view,



tspence73 said:


> Sorry if I didn't know that at the time


Means that all the ******** claims you made before hand WERE NOT FACTS.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> It's not exactly common knowledge that a woofer meant for home audio and sold to be used in a 2-way design and intended for an enclosure would somehow work for a car door IB.



If you had searched this site like you said you had you would have known this.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> If you had searched this site like you said you had you would have known this.


I did search the site. I saw tests where the guy built what looked like enclosures. I wasn't aware anyone did tests for IB.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> I did search the site. I saw tests where the guy built what *looked like* enclosures. *I wasn't aware* anyone did tests for IB.


Not enough data to make bold ass claims.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> I did search the site. I saw tests where the guy built what looked like enclosures. I wasn't aware anyone did tests for IB.


few seconds of searching...


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> It's very difficult to find a manufacturer that actually sells an 8" midbass specifically designed and released for an infinite baffle install.


The JL ZR800 and L8 are technically IB subwoofers.

From their manuals:


> APPLICATION INFORMATION
> The ZR800-CW is a powerful 8-inch component woofer designed to operate
> in automotive sound systems reproducing the frequency range between 30 Hz
> and 400 Hz. *It can be used in infinite baffle or enclosed applications as an
> extremely potent, dedicated midbass speaker or as a full woofer.*





> When operating below 50 Hz as a *true woofer*, power should be
> limited to no more than 125 watts per woofer *in infinite baffle applications*.





> The L8 was specifically built to give an up-front subwoofer option for doors, floor boards, and kick panels. We designed this driver so that, in the right installation, there would be no necessity for additional, larger subwoofers in an audiophile system played at reference levels.
> *The Legatia™ L8 subwoofer *has a slightly more limited bandwidth than that of its sibling L6, but that’s because we wanted to extract as much subbass performance out of this design as possible. *In a car environment, a pair of L8’s will fill the cabin with subbass, if installed properly! *


Naturally, I'd explain to you how they work and how they sound after using both of them as stated, but you wouldn't listen anyway. So, I'll just let you carry on with your self-imposed confusion and fantasy. I feel sorry for you. 



> Other drivers probably won't. If you put a driver meant for a sealed enclosure into an infinite baffle, it changes it's power handling and response. You're rolling the dice on whether it's going to be as good as a driver intended for that use. It doesn't mean that drivers don't exist that will work well in that kind of install. I noticed that people actually had to buy multiple woofers and run all kinds of performance tests just to find a handful that do well in IB. There will be some kind of loss of power handling in most cases.


Then you feel the urge to tell US how something you've never used will behave? Complete toolbox. 



> So, you're actually going to tell me that I should have expected that an 8" woofer meant for home audio and sold saying it goes in an enclosure would somehow perform well in IB in a car door?


Get out.  You don't deserve to post on DO IT YOURSELF mobile audio anymore. You've so missed the point of _everything _here. Go start your own forum where you can talk to yourself or something, you schizo.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> few seconds of searching...


Those pictures don't mean anything. There could be an enclosure in the door for all I know. Especially assuming that since the manufactures tell you put them in one. Again, a bunch of guys not listening to anything I'm saying. Instead of just saying, "ah, okay, so he didn't know about xyz woofer, no problem, it's not common knowledge, here's a link....". No....., you guys couldn't be that polite, you jump out, sink my thread, tell me rudely that I didn't search, tell me nothing about what I should be searching for (do you think the search function will bring up exactly what you think I'm looking for? not always). I think you guys need to get off your high horse and start treating others with more respect. I gave the people here respect until I was consistently disrespected. Then, it's up to you to earn MY respect back. Otherwise, blow.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> Then, it's up to you to earn MY respect back.


See where that gets you...


No one needs your respect, but you need everyone's help.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> Those pictures don't mean anything. There could be an enclosure in the door for all I know.


Exactly, for all *you* know because you didn't search.

First one...nope, no enclosure there
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=249761&postcount=67

2nd one...doesn't look like an enclosure to me
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84723&postcount=44

3rd one...you guessed it no enclosure
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=142011&postcount=2

Now what's your excuse for being too brainless to search?


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> Exactly, for all *you* know because you didn't search.
> 
> First one...nope, no enclosure there
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=249761&postcount=67
> ...


Believe me, I did search. And went through a ton of threads. I didn't find any of those pictures or threads. Sorry. Perhaps you have been on this board long enough to know where to find them? The word "midbass" brings up a ton of hits that you could spend weeks going through. Sorry if I'm not that patient. I did try to find what I was looking for on google and here for the better part of 2 days before asking in a thread. My hits on my searches were for midbasses for cars though. So, next time you accuse someone of "not searching" you should ask them "how" they searched and not be a rude *******.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> Perhaps you have been on this board long enough to know where to find them?


I didn't know that it was so hard to figure out that if you want to see pictures of different driver installations you should start your search in the install section of the forum.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Fox Pro Hit this **** on the head...get the [email protected] out...the whole premise of this website is to take drivers that aren't "made" for the automotive environment and try them in your car for a cheaper better alternative to "automotive" marketed driver. Now do most people here do that including myself? No...I run automotive drivers...but I have home drivers sitting around waiting to be tested in the car... but the kicker is when someone comes on here....asks for help...gets help..tells those that help him to **** off I don't like your answers...and then says


tspence73 said:


> So, you're actually going to tell me that I should have expected that an 8" woofer meant for home audio and sold saying it goes in an enclosure would somehow perform well in IB in a car door?


 No you can read right??? Dude..blow off...seriously...you are on the wrong website DO IT YOUR DAMN SELF mobile audio.. Now I'm not on the bandwagon of this site is terrible because not every single person on here uses home drivers and since NPDang sold it its gone to hell...I don't think that (I used to lurk...alot) but it still is diyma and diyma should always have that group that uses home drivers...it just is mindboggling you would say something like that when it is (was) the focus of the site...


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Bluto Blutarsky said:


> Why do either of you continue here?


**** you in your pussyhole, *****. Being on a PDA, I glossed over that the first time.


My understanding of music and reliance on my ear is far greater than any passive listener whose experience is limited to the reproduction of music.


1700 posts on DIYMA < recording live instruments, mixing stereo images, and traveling around the country VBA-ing crowds with the thoughts from your brain.

























So suck on my Ballskys.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Well that was nice /\/\/\


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

guitarsail said:


> Well that was nice /\/\/\


Motherfucker could use a filter to shelve some of that **** coming out of his mouth.


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## 86mr2 (Apr 29, 2005)

From Wikipedia:

"Unlike those with autism, people with AS are not usually withdrawn around others; they approach others, even if awkwardly, for example by engaging in a one-sided, long-winded speech about a favorite topic while misunderstanding or not recognizing the listener's feelings or reactions, such as need for privacy or haste to leave. This social awkwardness has been called "active but odd". This failure to react appropriately to social interaction may appear as disregard for other people's feelings, and may come across as insensitive."

"People with Asperger syndrome often display behavior, interests, and activities that are restricted and repetitive and are sometimes abnormally intense or focused. They may stick to inflexible routines, move in stereotyped and repetitive ways, or preoccupy themselves with parts of objects"

Sound like anyone we know (virtually)? Doesn't mention anything about not being able to search effectively or absorb the material though.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Haha to both of you.


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

icehole said:


> See where that gets you...
> 
> 
> No one needs your respect, but you need everyone's help.


Wrong. He doesn't nor need our help, just like he doesn't need a shelf filter. He'll specifically reject any suggestions we offer. What he needs is people to aggrevate and argue with.


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## Bluto Blutarsky (Apr 1, 2007)

icehole said:


> **** you in your pussyhole, *****. Being on a PDA, I glossed over that the first time.
> 
> 
> My understanding of music and reliance on my ear is far greater than any passive listener whose experience is limited to the reproduction of music.
> ...


As I was saying, your posts look just like this one, full of venom, so why post anything?


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Bluto Blutarsky said:


> As I was saying, your posts look just like this one, full of venom, so why post anything?


I'm not the only one making (vain) attempts to help spense. If I take on that task for whatever reason, that's my business. It's not like he's some sweetheart I'm being rude to or that he doesn't need help.

I use equipment far more complex than car audio gear on the daily. Making blind ass assumptions that I'm a 'newb' based on your extremely limited knowledge of me shows that you're no different than his dumb ass.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

icehole said:


> **** you in your pussyhole, *****. Being on a PDA, I glossed over that the first time.
> 
> 
> My understanding of music and reliance on my ear is far greater than any passive listener whose experience is limited to the reproduction of music.
> ...





icehole said:


> I use equipment far more complex than car audio gear on the daily. Making blind ass assumptions that I'm a 'newb' based on your extremely limited knowledge of me shows that you're no different than his dumb ass.


Calm down noob.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Look, I take offense to being called a newb from someone who knows nothing about me.

If I put anyone off, I guess I got ahead of myself, and I'm genuinely sorry. I come here to learn. But that **** is the dumbest assumption someone can make.

Everything I said, though, is true.

All apologies.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

icehole said:


> Look, I take offense to being called a newb from someone who knows nothing about me.
> 
> If I put anyone off, I guess I got ahead of myself, and I'm genuinely sorry. I come here to learn. But that **** is the dumbest assumption someone can make.
> 
> ...


Doesn't matter if you are or aren't what you are accused of being. Once the jerk faces start on you, they won't stop. My condolances. Just do what I do. Don't give a crap and have fun with it. They will eventually stop because it's not fun anymore or they will keep going and look like tools.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

icehole said:


> **** you in your pussyhole, *****. Being on a PDA, I glossed over that the first time.
> 
> 
> My understanding of music and reliance on my ear is far greater than any passive listener whose experience is limited to the reproduction of music.
> ...


and for good measure

I am not happy about this. Children should be seen not heard.



icehole said:


> Motherfucker could use a filter to shelve some of that **** coming out of his mouth.


really. 




icehole said:


> I'm not the only one making (vain) attempts to help spense. If I take on that task for whatever reason, that's my business. It's not like he's some sweetheart I'm being rude to or that he doesn't need help.
> 
> I use equipment far more complex than car audio gear on the daily. Making blind ass assumptions that I'm a 'newb' based on your extremely limited knowledge of me shows that you're no different than his dumb ass.


you don't have to help anyone. Alright...newb? 



tspence73 said:


> Doesn't matter if you are or aren't what you are accused of being. Once the jerk faces start on you, they won't stop. My condolances. Just do what I do. Don't give a crap and have fun with it. They will eventually stop because it's not fun anymore or they will keep going and look like tools.


Perhaps, with all the combined knowledge on this board we can apply some smarts. Open Win.isd. Now, look up the specs of the perfect cross. We can build it from birch, very nice, no? Ok. Then we'll need you to clamour up the side of the newly created implement of self-sacrifice and nail yourself to it. That did it. Now we truely appreciate the fact that you and your stupidity is now the whole reason people even show up to DIYMA. ^^^^SEE? DIYMA! NOW WITH VBA!!!!

****!! Where's TheDavel105, guys? Did he really get banned and this **** heap is allowed in? What the hell is going on? 

Are you really listening to this ****....again?!?!?! Look around. DIYMA is dead and bloated, filled to the gills with VBA and rather than throw a funeral you're all playing with this guy


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## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> Don't give a crap and have fun with it. They will eventually stop because it's not fun anymore or they will keep going and look like tools.


OH SNAP U JUST GOT


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

icehole said:


> A shelving EQ has no place in car audio. That's a job for a xover.
> 
> You should have searched first.


I use shelf filters all the time. They can be very useful and certainy have a place in car audio.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Tspence,
I suggest retiring your username and the rest of your membership credentials and re-upping with a new name. I'll bet that, for awhile at least, you'll receive better responses to your questions.


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)

Brilliant!!!:


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I use shelf filters all the time. They can be very useful and certainy have a place in car audio.



A shelf filter would be a great inclusion in a vst eq for carpc users, but asking for a component hard shelving eq is pointless since whith enough bands of eq you can do what any child does when put in front of a huge graphic eq and make shelves, mountains, hills, valleys, plateaus...whatever. -What I'm trying to say is that it would be more limited in use than products already in existence.


I've actually answered this exact question many times in person, and fortunately it's usually in front of a software eq where you can play etch-o-sketch with a parametric and make whatever convoluted shape you want. Why limit yourself to shelves?


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

icehole said:


> A shelving EQ has no place in car audio. That's a job for a xover.
> 
> You should have searched first.


Huh? Are you serious?

Ge0


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

icehole said:


> but asking for a component hard shelving eq is pointless since whith enough bands of eq you can do what any child does when put in front of a huge graphic eq and make shelves, mountains, hills, valleys, plateaus...whatever.


You need to do some research on EQ's man, the issue with the graphic, is that's it's REALLY NOT that "graphic" in what it really does. It will NEVER shelve unless it has a sweepable shelf and even with a 12dB cut.. think about it......


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Ge0 said:


> Huh? Are you serious?
> 
> Ge0


For the purpose of meeting Spense's goals, yes.




chad said:


> You need to do some research on EQ's man, the issue with the graphic, is that's it's REALLY NOT that "graphic" in what it really does. It will NEVER shelve unless it has a sweepable shelf and even with a 12dB cut.. think about it......


The child/graphic reference was more to point out that you can do A LOT with products that already exist if you're creative. I understand that you can't make a proper shelf with a graphic, and I do stand by that you can make a shelf or pretty much anything else with a fullly adjustable parametric. And the boy's not gonna get a shelf without going vst or using a series of filters


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

icehole said:


> The child/graphic reference was more to point out that you can do A LOT with products that already exist if you're creative. I understand that you can't make a proper shelf with a graphic, and I do stand by that you can make a shelf or pretty much anything else with a fullly adjustable parametric. And the boy's not gonna get a shelf without going vst or using a series of filters


Fair enough


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