# 2003 S-10 Pro Audio Blowthrough



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

After buying a new family car last year, I dismantled my S-10 and did a build or two in the Magnum, and the poor S-10 just sat in the garage, with a giant hole through the bed and the cab, beckoning me. Well, the time has come. 

I wanted to try a few new things with this build, some of which are a bit "outside the box." The truck is a single cab, so I don't have tons of room, but the blowthrough opens up quite a few options. The gear is as follows:

*HU/Processing: Pioneer DEX-P99RS

Amplifiers: Kenwood XR-4S (x2), Kenwood XR-1S (x2)

High: B&C DE500 compression drivers, Illusion CH-1/ IDmini Lenses

Midrange: Audax PR170M0 

Midbass: JBL 2204H

Subwoofers: JBL W15GTi MKI (x2)

Electrical: 200A alternator, Kinetik batteries *

The amps will provide 650w to each subwoofer, 150w to each 12" midbass, and 65w to each 7" midrange and horn. My system should be good for 100db at a maximum of 3w per driver across the entire frequency spectrum. 

So, onto the design. I obviously wasn't cramming 12" midbass in the front doors. I also wanted to port them. After running through a few different ideas, I decided to place them in the bed, pushed out to the far corners and firing forward. I kicked around firing them toward each other, but I actually ended up with more cone area further out to the sides doing it this way. They are housed in 1.6cf vented enclosures tuned to 60hz. The Audax midranges will be located in the factory door locations rather than the kicks. I only lose about 3" of stage depth, and gain 3-4" of width doing it this way because of where the factory locations are. Horns are obviously under the dash. The subs are located in an 8cf vented enclosure behind the 2204 and vent through the opening in the center. 

Planned xover points are: Subs, <80hz; 2204H, 80-300hz; PR170M0, 300-2khz; horns >2khz.

I spent last Saturday cutting out the enclosures (thanks Dave) and was able to get them built between yesterday and this morning, and in for a test fit. I have some finish work to do and will be finishing them in a black undercoating/bedliner material.

*Here is the design for the enclosures I came up with:*










*Here's how it turned out. Front of the 2204, with vents in the top corners:*










*The rear walls are angled to allow room for the subs to channel through:*










*I reinforced the insides of the angles with a few layers of chop mat:*










*Here is the subwoofer enclosure. Double 3/4" baffle with threaded inserts, and an additional "baffle" as a brace behind each woofer. The subs share the same chamber and a single vent provides 100" of port area:*










*Test fit- view from inside the cab:*










*From the bed:*



















*And here's what's going in them. 2204H: *










*W15GTi MKI: *










The smallest portion of the opening between the 2204H is the same area as the combined cone area of the pair of W15GTi, so there should be no bandpass effect. I will be working on the amp rack and new trim panel tomorrow, as well as building some new baffles for the PR170M0 to replace the 2118H baffles that are currently installed in the doors. I am hoping to have it up and running by the end of the week. More updates to come soon.


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

Sub'd 

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

this sucks


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> this sucks


What, that your enclosure is still sitting on a shelf at Home Depot for $31.97?


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## slowsedan01 (May 4, 2008)

Interesting build. I'm in.


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## SSCustoms (Oct 16, 2008)

I'm digging it! Can't wait to see more.


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## Eastman474 (Jan 8, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> this sucks


Poor Matt lol.. Want me to go to work for you so you can work on your build?



Glad to see the build log go up, been hearing plans for this install for a few months now


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## memphiskane (Mar 9, 2011)

Subscribed, these blow through intalls always peak my interest.


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## ToddG (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm in.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Dude! Fricking awesome!!!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Sick and hung over today, but got a little prep work done on the boxes including the first coat of spray-on bedliner. Quick pic:










Also received my Butyl Rope from Don, and some peel-and-stick Ensolite from Rick. Thanks guys! I should have the midrange baffles done and installed tomorrow. More updates to come.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

*Well, it's been 40* outside and raining all day (beats 110* I suppose), but I managed to get a decent amount done. I am replacing the carpet on the floor of the truck, so I took the opportunity to pull the old wiring. Lots of prep work done in the bed as well, and I should have the enclosures in place within a day or two. 

I also built the baffles for the midranges in the doors. They are 1/2" MDF with threaded inserts. They are secured to the doors with 1/4" bolts with nuts and lock washers on the back side. Installed:*



















*I also installed the PS Ensolite I got from Rick:*




























More to come tomorrow.


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## Eastman474 (Jan 8, 2010)

Looks ****in awesome man..


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

the JBL's goin in the door right? lose any window clearance?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

treylittlefield said:


> the JBL's goin in the door right? lose any window clearance?


No, the Audax PR170M0 are going in the doors. I had the 2118H in the doors before, and I lost the last 2-3" of window travel. The Audax are about 1" less deep so clearance should not be an issue this time around.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Decided to throw one of my Kinetiks in the bed. I fabbed up some brackets out of threaded rod and 1/8" aluminum strap. They are secured through the bed:










I've done 5-6 installs in this truck, and while the cab is extremely quiet, I always had some vibrations coming from the bed, especially with the enclosure mounted directly to the metal. After talking with Don, I decided to try out some of his Butyl Rope as a decoupler. I stretched it out to about half-thickness and laid down two ropes per bed ridge. The enclosures are secured down additionally with some carriage bolts that go through the bed, and I used some thick rubber washers on both sides. Hopefully, this will improve the bed vibrations as the enclosure basically does not come into contact with the bed directly anymore.



















Also, after building the trim panel for the hole and test-fitting the 2204 enclosure again, the vents were more obstructed than I thought. So I decided to mount the enclosure with the ports on the bottom instead (good thing the enclosure was symmetrical!) I also replaced the rubber accordion boot that seals off the hole which is also visible in this pic:










Still chugging along. Time to go heave my 200lb W15GTi enclosure into the bed.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Ahhh ****! This is the one I've been waiting for. 

Damn you work fast.

How's that Peel & Stick working out?


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## ECM (Dec 23, 2007)

Keep it up Mikey. Can't wait to see the horns installed.


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## Eastman474 (Jan 8, 2010)

Looking awesome man


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Today was pretty productive. 
























































Subs and mids are installed. I gotta say thanks again to Don (Rudeboy). The Butyl Rope was absolutely genius. It was a bit interesting having one chance at setting a 200lb enclosure in the right spot since the stuff is so adhesive, but it worked out great. The 2204 enclosure is bolted to the bed, but the W15GTi enclosure is not, and yet the damn thing does NOT MOVE. That **** is STICKY!  Also, there is a noticeable difference when knocking on the enclosures vs. my past installs. There is a nice dull "thud" and no bed resonance whatsoever. We'll see how it holds up with a few thousand watts.

My pair of XR-1S arrive tomorrow (I exchanged a pair of X1200M for them), so I should be able to get the horns hung, midrange installed, and get working on the amp rack.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

fish said:


> Ahhh ****! This is the one I've been waiting for.
> 
> Damn you work fast.
> 
> How's that Peel & Stick working out?


Woo hoo!  The P&S worked out really good. I have never worked with regular Ensolite but it was pretty painless. The paper backing was a bit difficult to remove on occasion, but it beat the **** out of spray glue.



ECM said:


> Keep it up Mikey. Can't wait to see the horns installed.


Thanks man! They should be in tomorrow or Tuesday. I still have the brackets in place from my last install so it should be pretty quick.


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## EEB (Jul 21, 2008)

Looks good.

Looking forward to see what you think of the Kenwood XR amps. Those are the amps I will probably still go with once I ever get started on my new install.


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## jamaldonado (Apr 10, 2011)

Lokking good cant wait to do my nissan


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

EEB said:


> Looks good.
> 
> Looking forward to see what you think of the Kenwood XR amps. Those are the amps I will probably still go with once I ever get started on my new install.


I got them all factory refurbished for $189/ea shipped. I bought them because they pack a lot of power in a very small footprint. I have limited space between the seats and the back of the cab, so I needed something pretty compact. Also they have all connections on one side, top-mounted controls, and a built-in cooling fan. I am eager to try them out.


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

take plenty of pics of the horns installed pretty please


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Fabbed up an amp rack today. It will sit at the base of the trim panel behind the seats on the floor. The main panel is 3/4" MDF, with 1" x 2" MDF feet that elevate it so I can run wiring underneath. Upon positioning these amps, I realized that the controls aren't actually on the top, but rather on the back (opposite the connection terminals). This actually worked out great, because I wanted to mount the terminals on the back edge of the rack and run all the wires through, so they wouldn't be visible. The top plate with the Kenwood logo on it is also removable and can be reversed, so it looks like the amp is still mounted "forward" even though the connections are in back. 

I notched out about 3/4" underneath each amps' set of terminals to run wires. The amps and distribution block are all secured to the rack with threaded inserts (I LOVE threaded inserts).  It is getting dark, so I will get some better pics up once everything is in but here are a few:

Carpeted with access holes cut for threaded inserts:



















Amps and distribution secured to rack:










Test fit inside truck:



















Power and ground run:










There is also a 2.5" x 45" piece that's 1/4" thick that spans the front of the rack to hide the wires and the feet. 

I am headed out to carpet the trim panel for the hole, then call it a night. I will have midranges and horns installed tomorrow.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

man... this install can't get any crappier

what a slap job you are doing. have some pride in your work and take your time... sheesh


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> man... this install can't get any crappier
> 
> what a slap job you are doing. have some pride in your work and take your time... sheesh




Yours is next...


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

I'm gonna be in Mesa from the 18-29th of this month....I'd love to check that out in person.


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## Eastman474 (Jan 8, 2010)

I'll agree with Matt on the "take your time" just cuz you have time to work on your build all the time you don't have to rub it in the faces of is that don't :b


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

wow, those amps are small...never realized they were that small till they were sitting behind where the seats go..lol good work


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

UNBROKEN said:


> I'm gonna be in Mesa from the 18-29th of this month....I'd love to check that out in person.


Fine by me.  I live in Gilbert now but pretty close to the Mesa border. Shoot me a PM and we'll figure out a time.


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## Afronaut (Apr 27, 2010)

Subscribed...blow throughs in minis are interesting.


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## internationlriders (Nov 7, 2009)

Interesting build so far, that's quite the trade - a truck for a subwoofer box! However I'm a huge fan of paper cone subs especially the Jbl's.  I love bass so I'm digging it!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I decided to color code all my wires this time to avoid confusion under the amp rack:










Here is the amp rack installed. I ran the 1/0 in from the bed through some rubber grommets and behind the trim panel. They exit out the center of the trim panel to the CBR44.










Here it is with the seats back in. 










PR170M0 terminated:










Installed:



















I need to run power to the back, install a few fuse holders, hang the horns, and install the HU tomorrow. Hoping I can get everything fired up by tomorrow night.


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## Eastman474 (Jan 8, 2010)

It is seriously retarded how fast you work lol


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

dang you work quick..lol


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Very cool, I'll be watching this one!


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## decibelle (Feb 17, 2011)

That is one intimidating truck bed. Keep it up, this is a great build.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Well, I got everything installed, and went to run AutoEQ and had no output from the 2204. Upon further inspection, the amp is defective.  So I have to wait a few days for an exchange to arrive. I guess if this is the only snag I hit on the entire install, I will consider it a success. Here are a few pics of the horn brackets and install... These are for you, Trey


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

A few more misc. pics... Front battery terminations:










I originally had set this up for double 1/0 runs to the back but ended up switching amp choices and didn't need it:










Here's the Kinetik in the bed:


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

what did you use to support the rear of the horns? never thought about just taking out those panels and leaving them out.  and thank you lol


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

sucks about the defective amp though...what alt are you running?


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## pjc (May 3, 2009)

I like the pace of the install. Alot of other installs I follow I end up losing interest at times. Great job.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

treylittlefield said:


> what did you use to support the rear of the horns? never thought about just taking out those panels and leaving them out.  and thank you lol


The Illusions go back far enough that they hit the hump toward the front of the footwell. So I just have a bit of Luxury Liner Pro wedged in between the DE500 and the floor/hump to keep pressure on them. 

I am running a 200A alt from DbEctrical.


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

i guess im not pushing them back far enough...lol i figured they would lean down in the back..causing them to be unlevel.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

treylittlefield said:


> i guess im not pushing them back far enough...lol i figured they would lean down in the back..causing them to be unlevel.


That's probably part of it. I have quite a bit of Damp Pro and Luxury Liner Pro built up on the floor so that helps close the gap as well. Push them back as far as they'll go and make your brackets accordingly.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

hah!  you hit a snag sucker !!!!

but really... 

this stuff looks really sloppy. are you going to put carpet back in this guy? I don't think "Luxury Liner" means that it looks good as is?

but seriuosly...

what are you doing this weekend? you wanna finish my install?!

Looks good bud


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

hey... by the way... I want to hear. Come by this weekend and we'll hook up one of my vibes and see what this ***** can do


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Awesome work! 

I would really like to hear this truck in person, but it's too far away


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## Purplehaze (Apr 3, 2011)

Very nice work, gotta love the sdimes!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> hey... by the way... I want to hear. Come by this weekend and we'll hook up one of my vibes and see what this ***** can do


Thanks to Cody, I will have another XR-4S here tomorrow so I should have it fired up. If I can sneak away I will cruise over for sure.


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## Eastman474 (Jan 8, 2010)

mikey7182 said:


> Thanks to Cody, I will have another XR-4S here tomorrow so I should have it fired up. If I can sneak away I will cruise over for sure.


I wish lived closer!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Killed a little time this afternoon while I'm waiting on the amp to come tomorrow. I built a boxed in trim panel for the bed to hide the enclosure, battery and wiring. It is hard to tell from the pics but the top edge follows the curvature of the tonneau cover rails/supports. I coated it in the same black bedliner spray I used inside the enclosure. It is made from 1/4" MDF with 1" MDF bracing along the bottom edge. The back and bottom are covered in PS Ensolite to help with vibration. Just something simple to keep suspecting eyes at bay. 




























The amp should arrive tomorrow so hopefully I can get it up and running.


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## Eastman474 (Jan 8, 2010)

I HATE that you're so far ahead of me in our builds you get to use the cool ideas first .. I was gonna build my trim panel like that. Oh well I made 1 other design a well


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## Eastman474 (Jan 8, 2010)

Looks good by the way


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Well, she's up and running. Ho. Lee. ****. . If you don't have 12" midbass, you're missing out.  More review to come.


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

Vids or it didn't happen

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

treylittlefield said:


> Vids or it didn't happen
> 
> Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


I don't think the camcorder on my Thunderbolt quite captures the impact.  I am happy to demo it for anyone who needs a kidney stone rattled loose. Bill (wheelieking)- this blows away my last setup you heard! Lemme know!


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

ooh... me me ... i wanna hear! i can only imagine what 12" midbass would sound like in a SINGLE CAB... ****


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

mikey7182 said:


> I don't think the camcorder on my Thunderbolt quite captures the impact.  I am happy to demo it for anyone who needs a kidney stone rattled loose. Bill (wheelieking)- this blows away my last setup you heard! Lemme know!


better than nothin..lol beins i cant drive or fly out there. lol


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## EEB (Jul 21, 2008)

Wish I was out your way so I could listen to it. 

So what do you think of those amps so far? The built in fan, I would imagine that it draws air out?


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## Eastman474 (Jan 8, 2010)

Gonna drive as fast as I can!


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Kenwood's made some seriously good amps these past few years.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

EEB said:


> Wish I was out your way so I could listen to it.
> 
> So what do you think of those amps so far? The built in fan, I would imagine that it draws air out?


Well that defective one left a bad taste in my mouth for a bit, but...

These little amps kick ass.  I can't believe how loud the setup is. Obviously my goal was to use extremely efficient drivers, but I was a bit nervous to use the relatively small mono amps on the subs. The results really exceeded any expectations I had. The subs have incredible impact, the midbass are just ****ing UNREAL. The Audax are insane. They scream, and the impact of the snares bests my 2118H from the previous install. Not that I am terribly surprised, but my voltage sits tight at 13.8V, at idle, with the AC on full blast, and the stereo at full tilt. And the amps barely get warm. They really are impressive in terms of power output and efficiency. I'd highly recommend them.

I can't say enough good things about how this setup turned out. Everything plays together so well, the deadening in the bed with the Butyl Rope really killed off vibrations so the impact is all channeled into the cab, the amps are perfect size for the space constraints I had and put out plenty of power for my needs. 

I was listening to Bob Marley, Tool- Salival, and the first Korn album today while I was tuning and tweaking, and the impact really is unbelievable. I have played around with various xover points and phase and I think I have it dialed in pretty good. Subs are 80hz and down, 2204 are 80-315, Audax are 315-1.6khz, and horns are 1.6khz up. All 4th order slopes. I've been switching between 250 and 315 on the 2204/PR170M0 xover point, and 1.25khz-2khz between the Audax and the horns. I'll continue to tweak as I get more listening time in, but so far the results are well worth the time and effort of the build.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Eastman474 said:


> Gonna drive as fast as I can!


It's only 6 hours from you... get your ass over here!


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

The amazing thing about those twelves is that when they are pounding and causing serious hearing damage, you can barely see them move maybe 2 mm's and the amps don't get hot.

Mike I am really interested in your impressions of the crossovers testing you have been doing. I have set my JBL/Audax crossover at 400 Hz and left it there from day one. There never seemed to be a need to change it. But recently I have been wondering if a lower crossover would improve vocals. But the vocals have always been great, so that is why I haven't screwed with it.

At 250 Hz the Audax's could be doubling their advertised xmax of .5mm. But Winslow says that they handle the over travel gracefully.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mitchyz250f said:


> The most amazing thing about those twelves is that when they are pounding and causing serious hearing damage, you can barely see them move. Maybe 2 mm's.


Yeah, they don't budge much. It's crazy how skull-crushing they are. It'd be fun to feed them some real power and see what they can really do... I don't think I could take it.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Even though I've never been out there (a good friend used to live in Mesa), I've wanted to move out to Arizona for a long time.

Now I really do. 

Would you say you had to adjust the gains down on the other 3 sets of drivers to match the Audax's output?

Congrats Mike.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

fish said:


> Even though I've never been out there (a good friend used to live in Mesa), I've wanted to move out to Arizona for a long time.
> 
> Now I really do.
> 
> ...


Not at all, actually. They are level matched quite well (by ear). The horns are actually quite a bit more efficient than even the Audax, but I like a fairly bright setup. The horns and mids have roughly 65w a piece available, while the 2204 have 150w each and the subs have about 650w each. Considering their respective efficiencies, I think the power distribution works out just about perfectly. Luckily (as you know) you can adjust individual driver levels from the HU, so it's been fun to tweak a bit.


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

i didnt realize the headunit you had...how you like it? $1200 worth? lol


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

treylittlefield said:


> i didnt realize the headunit you had...how you like it? $1200 worth? lol


Well, it's my 4th one... :blush: So something keeps me coming back.  The first three were the JDM spec (DEH-P01) and this time around I decided to pick up the American one. I got it for $976 shipped from 6th Ave Electronics, and yes, it is worth every penny (to me). It does everything I need it to in a single DIN chassis, and with space at a premium in my cab, it's nice not to have to worry about where to mount an external processor, along with a big nest of RCAs and harnesses. I bought 4 pair of 9 foot RCAs, ran them down the center tunnel and T'd them at the amp rack (2 to the right, 2 to the left). No noise or whine for one of the first times in this truck, and I paid like $3 a piece for the RCAs at a local wholesaler. Take that, all you guys with your $143 silver-tipped OFC quadruple-shielded titanium-plated-ends interconnects. :laugh:


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

lol i saw where is had 8 channel of output


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

I've always loved your builds bro! I wish I could have a listen. I'm expecting you to switch things up soon though...lol


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

beerdrnkr said:


> I've always loved your builds bro! I wish I could have a listen. I'm expecting you to switch things up soon though...lol


I definitely enjoy the process. It's hard not to want to tear it out every 3 months and try something new, but we'll see. I keep hitting a point where I feel I can't try something bigger, then I figure out a way to make it fit. First was a pair of W12GTi, then "there's no way I can fit 15s" then I figured out a way to make them fit. Then "there's no way I can fit THREE 15s" and that happened. I've definitely done higher powered systems (last setup with 3 W15GTis was over 3kw) but this is the loudest across the spectrum by far. Absolutely blows my panties off.  To be honest, I am happier with this setup than any other one I've had. I met all my goals, including extremely high output with relatively low power requirements and no voltage drop. The impact is unlike anything I've ever heard or felt in a car before, and would be more akin to ground zero at a Tool concert. Just what I was going for.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Again, congratulations Mike. I really envy you right now. But, if you do try to out-do this setup I can't wait to see what you come up with.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

fish said:


> Again, congratulations Mike. I really envy you right now. But, if you do try to out-do this setup I can't wait to see what you come up with.


Well, I will make this promise- I won't tear this out unless I am replacing it with 15" midbass and 18" subwoofers.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

A few more pics of everything. Got the bed finished:










The HU:










And another shot of the horns:










Listening impressions continue to make me grin like an idiot. Threw on some Chevelle and early Breaking Benjamin this afternoon... The drums and guitar are absolutely merciless. I also took it somewhere so I could park it and crank on it without disturbing anyone as I wanted to see if the bed rattled. I am amazed. The Butyl Rope worked flawlessly. There are virtually no rattles and the setup almost isn't audible outside the truck... Well, with the windows up anyway.  I think I have finally found what I've been looking for all these years installing. Pure sonic bliss, and not for the faint of heart.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Just rolled into Mesa tonight....looking forward to listening if the offer still stands.
I'm here for 10 days so no rush.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

UNBROKEN said:


> Just rolled into Mesa tonight....looking forward to listening if the offer still stands.
> I'm here for 10 days so no rush.


Yeah, definitely. Are you rolling that mean F250?? I've always wanted to check it out. I'll shoot you a PM.


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## EEB (Jul 21, 2008)

mikey7182 said:


> Well that defective one left a bad taste in my mouth for a bit, but...
> 
> These little amps kick ass.  I can't believe how loud the setup is. Obviously my goal was to use extremely efficient drivers, but I was a bit nervous to use the relatively small mono amps on the subs. The results really exceeded any expectations I had. The subs have incredible impact, the midbass are just ****ing UNREAL. The Audax are insane. They scream, and the impact of the snares bests my 2118H from the previous install. Not that I am terribly surprised, but my voltage sits tight at 13.8V, at idle, with the AC on full blast, and the stereo at full tilt. And the amps barely get warm. They really are impressive in terms of power output and efficiency. I'd highly recommend them.
> 
> :


Good to hear about the amps. I still plan on getting the amps since I need something small and the price is decent for them. Plan is a stealth install in my Blazer.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Mike just demoed it for me and 2 guys that work for me.
Not sure what to say...I don't think intense is a strong enough word. lol
One of my guys said he's never had midbass make his eyelids shake before. lol
All I know is...12" mid-basses FTMFW

Thanks Mike....


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Every description I read of this truck makes me want something like this more and more. Seems like it's absolutely incredible.

Seriously, it sounds like exactly what I want. I don't think my little Mitsu could hold 15" subs and 12" midbasses though


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

UNBROKEN said:


> Mike just demoed it for me and 2 guys that work for me.
> Not sure what to say...I don't think intense is a strong enough word. lol
> One of my guys said he's never had midbass make his eyelids shake before. lol
> All I know is...12" mid-basses FTMFW
> ...


Nice meeting up with you guys! I demo'd for a few people today and I feel like I have been at a Korn concert all day. My body needs a break.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Sweet 

About the Kenwood amps, I gotta say that I just put in a XR-5S in my truck, and the quality of highs I'm getting out of it are surprisingly good for such a small amplifier. I can only imagine what the eXcelons are doing for your system, but I bet it rawks!


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Mike, we need an update.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mitchyz250f said:


> Mike, we need an update.


Well, it's still awesome  I am going to swap out the Audax for my 2118 to compare. I have also located a very small JBL compression driver that I am going to try out. Hopefully I will end up keeping the all-JBL setup. Either way I am extremely happy with how it turned out. I also have another crazy idea, but I'm waiting to hear back from Matt Roberts first to see if it's possible...


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## toysoldier3646 (Jan 25, 2010)

this tempts me to do a blowthrough...


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Still one of the nicest installs on here 

Kind of influenced mine


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

edzyy said:


> Still one of the nicest installs on here
> 
> Kind of influenced mine


That's very kind of you to say. 

The S10 has actually been sitting in the back yard of a friends' house for over 2 years, and about two weeks ago, I decided to revive it! It only has 57k miles on it! And after all the time and effort that went into deadening it and building it into a great install platform, I couldn't part with it.

A new fuel pump, new alternator (someone stole the 200A I had on there during its hiatus  ), plugs, oil change, and an Optima Yellow top, and it started right up. I've been sanding and prepping it for a fresh coat of white paint which should be getting shot this weekend (doing it all myself) and then a new install very similar to the one in this thread will begin.  The pair of 12" ported midbass was still the coolest install I've done, so I have a pair of 2206H that will be going in this time, probably in a very similar enclosure.


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Popcorn time


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> That's very kind of you to say.
> 
> The S10 has actually been sitting in the back yard of a friends' house for over 2 years, and about two weeks ago, I decided to revive it! It only has 57k miles on it! And after all the time and effort that went into deadening it and building it into a great install platform, I couldn't part with it.
> 
> A new fuel pump, new alternator (someone stole the 200A I had on there during its hiatus  ), plugs, oil change, and an Optima Yellow top, and it started right up. I've been sanding and prepping it for a fresh coat of white paint which should be getting shot this weekend (doing it all myself) and then a new install very similar to the one in this thread will begin.  The pair of 12" ported midbass was still the coolest install I've done, so I have a pair of 2206H that will be going in this time, probably in a very similar enclosure.


 

Cant wait


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

Yuppers, im sub'd

Ive talked crap about blow throughs before, but one like this I can get behind, and who doesnt want 12" midbass


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

What I found after doing lots of installs with multiple subs and kilowatts of power, was that with those 2204, the majority of my impact was actually coming from higher frequencies than I thought. So for the new build, I am starting with a simpler setup using a single sub to more or less reinforce the bottom end- an Alpine Type R 15 that I scooped up for pennies on CL.  The Type R has always had the 'ricer' stigma attached but they are actually fantastic woofers. I used the new 8" in my daily driver for the past year and it was a little animal! 

At any rate, the 15" will obviously be vented, and the two 2206 will be as well, out in the corners like the previous setup. I am going to build their enclosures larger than last time and tune them lower though, to run them down to 50hz instead of 63. I'll be trying the pair of BMS 8S215 I had in my F150 blowthrough for midrange, along with some JBL 2118H to compare to the BMS, and a pair of modified ID full size lenses with the old faithful B&C DE500 on horn duty. I have a pair of Eclipse amplifiers- an XA4000 that will run the horns and mids, and an XA5000 that will run bridged to the 2206 and the 15" on the sub channel. Shouldn't be more than about 1kw powering the whole thing, and should be good for at least [email protected]/m across the whole spectrum.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I need to return that PM too...haven't forgotten about you.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> I need to return that PM too...haven't forgotten about you.


Lemme know


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

*Ok, it's probably about time to start updating this.*

For most of you that haven't been updated/in communication with me, this S10 has essentially been parked in my friends' back yard since dismantling it in late 2011/early 2012. I bought an F150 and had an install in that for awhile, and ultimately had plans to weld shut the blowthrough on the S10, repaint it and sell it.

About 2 months ago, I decided I wanted to revive it and get it back on the road. I tossed the key in and it only has 57k miles on the clock! Not terrible for a 2003. It's cheap on gas and I've invested tons of time and effort into making it an install platform for the types of gear I like to run. So I made the evaluation that I would 'restore' it a bit. First, it didn't run, partially because the battery was dead, the fuel pump housing had sun-rotted, and some ******* stole the 200A alternator off it while it was sitting for 2 years. 

So, I bought a new factory alternator, an Optima yellow top, and a new fuel pump, along with plugs, wires, oil change, fuel filter, etc. And what do you know? It started right up.  

Next was paint. I've never painted a vehicle before. A few of my friends have, and they had the tools and offered to help out.

The cab body was straight. The bed was/is a bit wavy around the rails, which I decided not to dedicate too much time to since ultimately it's still a little beater, but there were some big issues around the fenders where the old paint had chipped before. I wanted to stay with the factory white, except I painted the bumpers, and repainted all the trim pieces high gloss black. Here's what I found when I went to see it for the first time:





You can see how bad the clear is chipped away- gone in most places and flaking off. So we sanded down the cab and the bed and did a little body work to get it ready for primer:





We then loaded the truck on a trailer and moved it to my house, where we constructed a paint booth in my back yard using the frame of a camping awning, a 48' x 14' gas station bilboard tarp, and thick painters' plastic:



We rigged up a push-pull fan system for ventilation, and pulled it in and got to work. Put a coat or two of primer down, sanded a bit (no pics, sorry) then shot base and clear:





Then assembed the truck a bit:







Wet sanded some orange peel out of the clear, then used a medium Meguiar's cutting compound and an orbital buffer to polish it. Today/tomorrow we will be using some Meguiar's swirl remover followed by their NXT 2.0 Tech Wax and it should be looking pretty good.

There are some imperfections obviously as we did it ourselves and shot it in the back yard, but overall it turned out pretty good and looks way better than it did before! Now it's ready for the install...


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

*Now the install. This will look/sound like a bit of a broken record, but there are only so many variations you can do using pro audio gear in a single cab truck, and why change what works?  My plans for this install are very similar to the one on page 1, with some minor tweaks that I think will be beneficial.

Gear:

Processing: IVA-W200 and PXA-H701
High: Modified ID fullsize lenses, B&C DE500 compression drivers
Mid: JBL 2118H and BMS 8S215 (comparing the two) in the doors
Low: JBL 2206H (x2) in 1.6cf net ported, tuned to 50hz
Sub: JBL W15GTi (x2) in a quasi-6th order bandpass
Amps: Pioneer GM-D8604 bridged to 2206; GM-D8604 to horns/2118; GM-D9601 to subs *

I've never run the JBLs in anything but vented enclosures. In my design on page 1, there is a ton of negative space between the midbass/in front of the subs. I wanted to put this to use if possible. A few years ago, Jim (BigRed) ordered some designs from PWK for a pair of these same subs for his blowthrough. He happened to still have the original blueprints and shot them over to me. Being that his F250 dwarfs my S10, and that I needed to incorporate the midbass into the footprint, I reverse engineered the design using the measurements, calculated volumes, ports, and tunes, then redesigned it to fit the space I had. 

Bobby, a very close friend of mine, ended up in a wheelchair as a result of a bad work accident about 18 months ago, so I needed to make sure there was enough room left in the bed for his wheelchair. He used to work for a sign shop (which is where he was working when the accident occurred). They had a 5' x 12' table router that we used to use to cut my enclosures and other things out. It so happened that his old boss has an uncle who owns another sign shop here in Phoenix. They have the exact same router, and Bobby was a champ on this thing. He even wrote a training manual on it. So, he managed to work out a deal with these guys where we used their router to cut out my enclosure, and he trained their guy on it at the same time. Very gracious of them and fortunate for me. The vids aren't the greatest, but I took a few of the beast in action. It feeds 150"/min and is accurate to the millimeter. The computer program has a 'nesting' feature that automatically arranges all your cuts in the most efficient manner possible, so the waste left over was essentially sawdust. This thing took down 4 sheets of MDF in about an hour, including swap/clean up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjhW4TqRzAA

Here is a pic of the first sheet after it was cut. Almost zero waste:



And here is the enclosure- I just taped the pieces together to verify fitment, etc. It utilizes separate rear vented chambers and a common front vented chamber. The 2206 enclosures are vented and separate, off to the sides. I will start construction early next week on the build once the truck is completely back together:


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

A no-waste-cut... whoa you the man!!
(It's not easy to design that ... all the math, geometry and etc involved there.)


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I would be curious to see those box plans to see how it models in hornresp.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

There were definitely several factors involved. Fortunately I know the maximum dimensions I had to work with so that helped. Figuring out how to fit it all into one footprint, especially incorporating the ported midbass enclosures- was... Interesting.  Math has always been a strong suit of mine so designing this was a fun challenge. I am eager to see how the 6th order compares to the ported I had before.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> I would be curious to see those box plans to see how it models in hornresp.


Based on the PWK designs I got from Jim, I calculated the rear chambers to be 2.85cf net, each, tuned to 33hz. The front common chamber is 4.35cf net, tuned to 58hz. He said installed, it had a useable passband from 25-60 before roll off and made significant improvements in output over the vented enclosure he replaced.


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## Midwestrider (Aug 10, 2007)

Mikey -Sub'ed for recent updates.

Any reason on the pioneer amps over the kenwoods?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Midwestrider said:


> Mikey -Sub'ed for recent updates.
> 
> Any reason on the pioneer amps over the kenwoods?


Well, I sold the Kenwoods otherwise I would've used them again. They were awesome little powerhouses.

3 of these were significantly cheaper than 4 of those again, and this single GM-D9601 does close to what two of the XR-1S would do. Plus, I acquired one of the Pioneers in a trade, so that prompted the hunt for the other two. I haven't used the Pioneers yet but they seem to have great reviews. I was going to go with the PPI P900.4s and P1000.1 as I've used the 4 channel before and it was a solid performer, but I don't care for the terminals on them- how they protrude from the ends. These Pioneers have the same downward-angled terminals that the Kenwoods did. My only 'complaint' about these, if you can call it that, is that the connections are on both ends instead of on the front like the Kenwoods.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

That box is re-****-ulous. In a good way. 
A couple friends of mine just picked up a ShopBot, sort of the mini version of the router you used...handy for etching plexi. lol

Jay


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

That router is better than sex. Makes me wish I had a 3 car garage and $25k to burn. Everyone should have one of those damn things. It'll do recessed rings if you want to countersink your drivers. Everything. It's so badass and it saved me 3-4 days and the trouble of inventing new swear words by cutting it all out with a table saw and router.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Might have to pick one of those up after I win the Powerball tonight. lol
I was surprised to see this thread get revived. I thought you had gotten rid of this. Nice to see it make a return.

Jay


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You have the port areas and lengths handy?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> You have the port areas and lengths handy?


Ports for rear chambers are 15.5 x 2 x 19.75. Vent in the front is 15.5 x 8 x 9 I believe.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Just as an FYI, PWK models enclosures to the vehicle and listening preferences. so those enclosures won't quite have the same response in your S10 as they did in Jim's truck. Or hornresponse for that matter. Having said that it would be interesting to see it, you know, for educational purposes


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah...

The vehicle is going to change the response some, but that is due to cabin gain only. Jim's Ram would have slightly more cabin gain down low than the S-10 because it is a larger cabin.

Working on it in hornresp...if I had a copy of BassBox Pro or Lite, I could have something to double check my results with- BB6 will model series tuned 6th order on it's own whereas in hornresp you have to treat it as a tapped horn of sorts. Anyone out there have BB6 they want to share? I don't have the cash to buy it.

akabak can model it too...I just don't know enough to write the script to do it.

Just don't read too much into the PWK magic koolaide stuff...we know what happens inside the car- you have a 2nd order rising response in the bass from cabin gain. Seeing how the enclosure peaks is another story...physics is physics, and PWK didn't invent some new math and physics.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

pocket5s said:


> Just as an FYI, PWK models enclosures to the vehicle and listening preferences. so those enclosures won't quite have the same response in your S10 as they did in Jim's truck. Or hornresponse for that matter. Having said that it would be interesting to see it, you know, for educational purposes


Yeah, I am aware of this, and unfortunately the tiny cabin of my single cab pickup doesn't offer much in the way of cabin gain compared to some larger trucks (including the F150 I did the pair of BMS 18s in). Ultimately, I just wanted to A) try something new (as usual) and B) see if I could get a bit more output than the traditional vented enclosures I've run in the past. If nothing else, it makes use of the void between the vented midbass. I'll have an H701 at my disposal with 10 bands of EQ to work with, and the 2206 will be coming in at either 50 or 63hz. Eager to see how this enclosure sounds compared to the ones in the past. 

I don't think this enclosure is going to be the be-all, end-all just because PWK came up with the volumes and tune; it was gracious of Jim to forward me the blueprints he waited and paid for. I mainly took the time to reverse engineer it and redesign it because of Jim's feedback regarding this enclosure compared to the vented one he ran before, along with a few people I talked to who heard the truck.  That and I enjoy a challenge, and designing this and incorporating the midbass into the footprint and retaining enough bed space for a wheelchair was nothing short of difficult.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

LEAP will do it too. Erin has a copy of that now, but he won't give me one  I know he can't since it has a serial attached to it.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Meh, **** a computer. Why don't you just fly out to Phoenix in about 10 days and hear it for yourself?  I picked up 32 threaded inserts and bolts for the drivers, wood glue, carpet, paint, have some RCAs on the way, my second W15GTi will be here tomorrow and the truck is done being painted. It's go time!


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

Gonna do butyl rope under that enclosure again?


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

How far is Mesa from Tuscon?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

REGULARCAB said:


> Gonna do butyl rope under that enclosure again?


You bet your ass I am.  Best. Discovery. Ever. Don knows when I'm doing a new build because I always order 3 more rolls of his stuff. This will actually be my 3rd application of the butyl rope. The very first time it occurred to me to try it, I stuck the stuff right to the bed. It was way more adhesive than I anticipated and I didn't even end up bolting the enclosure down. I could literally move the whole truck with the enclosure. Getting the enclosure out absolutely destroyed it. I had to rip the MDF out chunk by chunk. So A for effort, but F for practicality.

Second attempt went much better- different truck. What I did in that is what I'll be doing in this: first, a layer of rubber-backed carpet tiles, roughly 1/4" thick. Then 1/2" MDF on top of the carpet tiles in the shape of the footprint of the enclosure, with threaded inserts that align with holes drilled through the bed/carpet tiles. Bolts go in from the underside and into the threaded inserts to hold the 1/2" MDF securely to the truck, sandwiching the carpet tiles. Butyl rope then goes on top of the 1/2" MDF, and the enclosure rests on that. What I am going to do this time is construct the enclosure, then flip it upside down and set the 1/2" piece and butyl rope on the bottom then clamp it down before installing it, that way I'm not trying to hoist a 300+lb enclosure over sticky butyl rope and hope I drop it right where it's supposed to go. I think doing that twice now is sufficient.  Butyl rope will also go around the perimeter of the front of the enclosure where it meets the front of the bed, so there will be no contact whatsoever between the truck and enclosure.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

bassfromspace said:


> How far is Mesa from Tuscon?


90 minutes by car. 4 days if you're an illegal immigrant on foot. 48 minutes if you're on a 2006 YZF-R1 at night and your kids haven't been born yet so you don't possess the foresight to make decisions beyond "I wonder what 3 miles a minute feels like..."


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

mikey7182 said:


> 90 minutes by car. 4 days if you're an illegal immigrant on foot. 48 minutes if you're on a 2006 YZF-R1 at night and your kids haven't been born yet so you don't possess the foresight to make decisions beyond "I wonder what 3 miles a minute feels like..."


Cool, I have family in Tuscon. Would love to stop by and hear it sometime.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I'm always happy to demo. Bring your own material or I've got a 160gb iPod full of about 400 Lossless albums.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

mikey7182 said:


> I'm always happy to demo. Bring your own material or I've got a 160gb iPod full of about 400 Lossless albums.


Cool beans.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah...
> 
> The vehicle is going to change the response some, but that is due to cabin gain only. Jim's Ram would have slightly more cabin gain down low than the S-10 because it is a larger cabin.
> 
> ...


I have BB6. 

I wasn't reading any magic into anything, just stating that he factors the cabin into the model.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Hey, I see 'cmusic' is in here. I've been using your tuning steps posted by Marv for years


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I got your box modeled in akabak with one script, going to try a different one tomorrow to see if they are the same as it isn't looking the way I would have thought it would look.

Right now you are rocking a big smiley face FR with 11 dB of gain at 32 and 9 dB at about 76. It's not looking that much more efficient over a broad range over a ported box. I'll try another script and see how it looks.

Pocket, you want to plug everything in on BB6 and see what it looks like on there?

I wish I had LEAP because you can see what the response would be like in different sized rooms- ie, different sized car/truck cabins.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I mean if you didn't want to sit down and learn these programs, the $50 or whatever he charges might be worthwhile spending. Well as long as you are getting something exotic flavored. And I still am suspect on the bass horn claims he is doing. But I think I can learn to model those as well.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

This model is bugging me because I'm not seeing the three peaks in the impedance that I should be seeing with a 6th order box...leading me to think I have something wrong.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

And once again it's on!

What's up Mike? Glad to see you back at it! As always, a well-thought out plan.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

fish said:


> And once again it's on!
> 
> What's up Mike? Glad to see you back at it! As always, a well-thought out plan.


Thanks man! Not a whole lot is up. Just got the truck repainted and getting the last few odds and ends of things to get this build going. What's new your way?

Jason- if you can screenshot those and send them to me I'd appreciate it. Just curious what the response looks like on paper.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Jason--

Are you (somehow) compensating for the cabin of the S-10? If so, how? 
I'm curious.

Jay


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

mikey7182 said:


> Thanks man! Not a whole lot is up. Just got the truck repainted and getting the last few odds and ends of things to get this build going. What's new your way?


Oh, ya know, life.  Audiowise... I attempted to put some mini horns in the Civic, but couldn't get them to fit the way I wanted, so had to scrap that idea.  I went with a pair of Morel 4" pointsource in the pillars & been through a few pairs of 10" PA midbass. I haven't been on here much... built a house recently, so I've been on the HT forums lately.

I know you're a JBL speaker fan, have you ever considered any of there CDs for your horns?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Nice! Yeah, after my F150 build, I wasn't on here much for almost 2 years, but decided to come back after the S10 idea took off.

I owed a pair of JBL 2426H and attempted to get them in my Magnum back in 2009-2010. The issue with JBL compression drivers is they are ****ing HUGE, lol. There are some that are tiny that (Jason reminded me) are actually made by BMS- the 2407, 2408, 2412, etc. But they don't play low enough to really incorporate into my designs unfortunately. My issue in the S10 is my cab is so narrow- this gives it tons of potential for stage height, but not a ton of width, and especially with 8" midrange in the doors instead of buried deep forward in the kicks (I have no room), if I run those any higher than 800-1khz, it really drags my stage down. I'd love to run a pair of 2408s or something down to 1.6khz but I've tried that xover point with the DE500s and it just doesn't sound as good. 

Congrats on building the house


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Thanks!

I hadn't looked at JBL CDs in a while, but thought I remembered them being on the LARGE side. It's all about compromises, unfortunately.

Since we're talking JBL... I just received a pair of the Studio 590 towers & 520C center 5 minutes ago. They have a HUGE waveguide on them, so I'm pretty excited to get them unboxed & hooked up!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Let me try this other script to see if they match up. The lack of three impedance bumps makes me think I have something wrong...the nulls of the three bumps would be the tuning frequencies of the chambers. Right now it is a big smiley face...but it is hard to get a lot of bandwidth and gain at the same time with a bandpass. You can do one or the other really well, but not both...anything over 1-1.5 octaves and high gain would be tough.

Which leads the question, is the depression in the FR (if it is really there on the program) intentionally placed to account for a resonant bump? My old Accord liked to be played around 48 hertz for SPL purposes. That might could "fill in" the depression to flatten it all out some...it would probably be more of down tilt considering the cabin gain and boosted LF tuning on the box (if there).

I haven't factored the cabin gain in...if I had LEAP EnclosureShop I could model the effects of different sized rooms have on the FR. But that program is $800, so the best thing I can do is take an educated guess based on those years of doing these things. If someone wanted to go look for a copy on a Torrent site, down load it, make sure it's clean, and send it to me, I would appreciate it. I'm afraid of the torrent stuff after getting bit a few times on them just browsing around.

The BMS made JBL drivers were the 2406 (a BMS 4538) and the 2407 (a BMS 4540). The 2408 was JBL's response to what they thought was an overly engineered driver, and the 2408h-1 is different in design too. Generally with JBL Pro, you'll have a driver and then when they figure out how to make it cheaper they'll add that -1 to the model number. I think there may have been a JBL labeled 4550 and 4552, but can't find the info on it now. But the JBL labeled drivers are going for more than the BMS counter parts these days...and the used JBL versions are almost as much as a new BMS, which has been a dramatic change in the last year.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Oh and I am using the T/S data from the Klippel test of the WGTi15mk2. I was thinking the only differences were cosmetic....and I didn't even think to ask with what data was used to originally design the box- measured or published?


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

thehatedguy said:


> Oh and I am using the T/S data from the Klippel test of the WGTi15mk2. I was thinking the only differences were cosmetic....and I didn't even think to ask with what data was used to originally design the box- measured or published?


This is a good question. Can you send me the link for the TS you used so we'll have comparable results?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/klippel-reviews-driver-specs/11864-jbl-w10gti-w15gtimk2.html


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

If it is easier to do one sub per enclosure, that is what I would do (and did). The front chamber volume and port area would have to be halved though. I just wanted to see the shape of the response...adding another driver wouldn't change that, only the amplitude.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I would imagine published specs were used, and you are correct in that there were no T/S variances between the 3 versions. According to a few sources, what makes the ones I'm using better is that they were manufactured in the US, whereas the newest ones with the chrome dust cap were/are made in China. Mild differences in the tinsel leads, etc. Nothing major.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

If I did it correctly, this is what BB6 says...


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Does it have an 'SPL' function in BB6 like in WinISD, where you can plot output based on power input? If so, I'd be curious to see what that graph looks like (it would look very similar to the dB/gain graph but with different Y-axis values.)


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

mikey7182 said:


> Does it have an 'SPL' function in BB6 like in WinISD, where you can plot output based on power input? If so, I'd be curious to see what that graph looks like (it would look very similar to the dB/gain graph but with different Y-axis values.)


yes it does. I couldn't find an xmax figure on the klippel test so I didn't input any power. But, I can certainly do that. I saved the model just in case 

How much power?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Awesome, thanks  I'll be running about 1kw total to the two of them.

And here are the published parameters:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/CAR/Boxes and Parameters/W15GTi_rev_f.pdf

Looks like about 20mm xmax.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

See if you can see this.

Our x-axis are different, I can probably change over to a log function to make them look more equal, but you can see the general shape is the same.

How do I attach pictures inside the message body?

That's one driver with 2.83 volts one the first script...it does have 3 peaks, the first one was waaay down low where I wasn't expecting to see it.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

That's interesting. It almost looks less efficient than the factory rated specs between 30-60hz. Always fun to see how something looks on paper compared to how it performs in real life. I should have most of the weekend to get a big chunk of the install finished. Cutting the enclosure out was a huge portion of work.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That's what was bugging me too, it does look less efficient in that range to me too.

But let me try this other script to see if it changes things.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

A couple more for you...

The excursion is based on 500 watts (you mentioned 1k for both, so I assumed 500 each). right around 14mm. 1000watts to a single is 19.4mm 

So, get some more power there and let 'em loose!

The other graph is with 1k input, to account for the doubling of speakers.

Hope that helps


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Does your modeling account for any kind of cabin gain? If I can do a 125-130db from 20-20khz, that's the goal. Looks like if those will do 122 with no cabin gain I ought to be right where I want to be.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

No it doesn't. I would think 130 should be attainable


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah a 130 in the subbass will be cake...a 140 in the bass will be cake. If you aren't in the mid/upper 140s in the bass with a couple 15s I would be really worried.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah a 130 in the subbass will be cake...a 140 in the bass will be cake. If you aren't in the mid/upper 140s in the bass with a couple 15s I would be really worried.


I don't think I'll be that high with the power I'm running and the relatively little cabin gain I've experienced in this truck, but we'll see how this enclosure does. I am more interested in the midbass honestly. I really just have the pair of W15GTi for low end reinforcement. My last install in this truck absolutely blew me away at how much "bass" was actually coming from >50hz. The 2204H I was running carried the brunt of the impact that was experienced in that setup.

I'm going to run the 2206 down to 50hz. They'll be getting about 250w a piece, and I am debating between stereo and mono signal (not that I'll need the additional coupling output, but it'd be fun to try). In WinISD, before any cabin gain, a single 2206H in my enclosure will do [email protected] with 250w input. from 50hz up, I ought to be good for a solid 120-125db, with a bit more on the bottom octave. This weekend I should make a significant amount of progress on the install.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That's 120 dB in free space...but we aren't in free space, so you will get more output than that in the car.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> That's 120 dB in free space...but we aren't in free space, so you will get more output than that in the car.


I know the 2206 and W15GTi will be louder than that; the 'limiting' factor, if you can call it that, will be the 2118 or 8S215, with their 'shoddy' efficiency of 97db/1w.  The horns will get that loud, but the midrange will probably top off around 115-118db with the power I have on tap. Either way, it's going to be ****ing loud, as is everything I design, and I am excited to have tunes once again.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I would think it would be atleast that loud. But that is pretty darned loud.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

mikey7182 said:


> I don't think I'll be that high with the power I'm running and the relatively little cabin gain I've experienced in this truck, but we'll see how this enclosure does. I am more interested in the midbass honestly. I really just have the pair of W15GTi for low end reinforcement. My last install in this truck absolutely blew me away at how much "bass" was actually coming from >50hz. The 2204H I was running carried the brunt of the impact that was experienced in that setup.
> 
> I'm going to run the 2206 down to 50hz. They'll be getting about 250w a piece, and I am debating between stereo and mono signal (not that I'll need the additional coupling output, but it'd be fun to try). In WinISD, before any cabin gain, a single 2206H in my enclosure will do [email protected] with 250w input. from 50hz up, I ought to be good for a solid 120-125db, with a bit more on the bottom octave. This weekend I should make a significant amount of progress on the install.


Looking forward to seeing it. I'm getting an S10 soon and contemplating what to do with it, if any, audio wise. it will mostly be a hotrod, but I can't imagine not having _any_ tunes in it.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You know this will probably be a really good enclosure for that truck. That big bottom end boost will be good to have. You might could tune the front side a little lower since you have the 12s playing 60 and up. That would get you more gain in the passband.

Where does that truck peak at? I would guess somewhere in the lower-mid 70 hertz range.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I haven't ever checked it but that would be my guess as well just based on ear over the years. I may bring the 2118 in at 160-200 instead of 250-315. We'll just have to see how it all sounds.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Mike,

Why are you only running the 2206's to 200Hz. Do they sound bad above that?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

It hasn't been decided for sure yet. They probably sound awesome up to 1khz to be honest. It's more of a staging decision. If you recall the F150, I ran the BMS 18" up to 315 where I brought the PR170M0 in. It pulled to the rear but any xover point lower than that started messing with the Audax. When I replaced the Audax with the BMS 8S215, I crossed at 250 and it sounded phenomenal. Far less staging issues and better output on the front end. 

All I meant is that it will be nice to have the flexibility to play with my xover points since all my drivers have so much overlap. I could so 63-315-1.25khz. I could do 50-250-800. I could do 50-160-1.6khz. Different slopes, etc. Just nice to have the options is all. These are all hypotheticals until it's actually installed. 

Great to hear from you btw! I was actually sifting through old emails last week and meant to send you one. How are things?


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Things are going well. I am (as always) very interested in your project. I am going to be building a CRX very soon (the car is purchased) and want to put a very simple but very dynamic and properly staging system together for it. Currently the system in my RSX meets those requirements except it is not simple, 8 amps are WAY too many amps. I am thinking about running my 2204s (in the quarters) from 30 to 300Hz and then having 5 PHL 1120 (center, front and rear) take over from there. 

Based on UniBox I should be able to get more volume than from my DIYMA12 at 30Hz. But who know what that will do to the dynamics at 200hz. Have you tried running your 2206s down to 30Hz for giggles?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mitchyz250f said:


> Things are going well. I am (as always) very interested in your project. I am going to be building a CRX very soon (the car is purchased) and want to put a very simple but very dynamic and properly staging system together for it. Currently the system in my RSX meets those requirements except it is not simple, 8 amps are WAY too many amps. I am thinking about running my 2204s (in the quarters) from 30 to 300Hz and then having 5 PHL 1120 (center, front and rear) take over from there.
> 
> Based on UniBox I should be able to get more volume than from my DIYMA12 at 30Hz. But who know what that will do to the dynamics at 200hz. Have you tried running your 2206s down to 30Hz for giggles?


I haven't. With an FS of 52hz and since my enclosures have been tuned to 50-60hz, I would assume 30 cycles would send them through my seat as they unloaded below tuning.  Even when I had the 2226G (the 1500GTi variant), they didn't perform very well below about 40hz (compared to the low end prowess of the W1xGTi). 

Are those PHL 1120 those drivers similar to the PR170M0 we talked about awhile back? If it were me, I would do a single sub to bolster the low end- something like a W10GTi or W12GTi, vented and tuned to 30hz or so. Then do your pair of 2204 from 50 or 60 up to 300hz, and the 1120s up from there. You could do a simple amp setup like a PPI P900.5 where the 2204 ran off the first four channels bridged, then the sub ran off the 5th channel, then do a 4 channel and 2 channel for the F/R/C if you're really set on doing a center). That'd be 3 amps max with no compromise on the bottom end and you wouldn't be losing any dynamics in the midbass region by running such little power to the 2204 to get them down to 30hz. Just my $.02. 

As for my install, I got the enclosure built this week, drivers loaded, and enclosure placed in the bed. For some reason, not all my threaded insert holes lined up with the holes in the bed, so I am trying to figure out how to affix the enclosure to the bed while keeping it decoupled with the 1/2" MDF that's below it. I can catch 1-2 of the inserts but the front two are completely nowhere to be found, which is baffling because I placed, marked, and checked twice. Something got misaligned somewhere. 

I did also get the horns installed, and the 2118H in the doors and the panels back on. I need to figure out an amp rack that will hold my 3 amps, H701, distribution block, and also the beauty panel/trim ring around the hole. Also need to weld up a battery tray for my second Optima under the hood. Making solid progress though!


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

On the subject of unloading, are you at all worried that the 9601 has no ssf? Or are you tuning the subs so low that its not much of a concern?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

REGULARCAB said:


> On the subject of unloading, are you at all worried that the 9601 has no ssf? Or are you tuning the sub so low that its not much of a concern?


I'm not worried about my subs unloading- the H701 has a SSF. Well technically, it has a HPF and LPF for all 8 channels, so I'm good. My enclosure is a bit different than a regular ported enclosure so I will need to be careful to set a HPF/SSF for them. The low end/rear chambers of the bandpass are tuned to about 33hz, so I will probably set my SSF at 31.5hz or whatever Alpine's option is around there.

What I meant with the 2206H midbass, because they will be in enclosures tuned to 50hz, if I ran them down to 30hz (in other words, with no HPF/SSF), they would quickly unload. Generally speaking, a driver in a ported enclosure has the least excursion at the tuning frequency, but below that frequency, excursion rises quickly. Another way to look at it would be that power handling decreases as frequency does (in a ported enclosure below tuning). So technically, I could run the 2206H down to 30hz to see how they sounded, but I wouldn't be able to feed them the same 250w they'll be getting above 50hz. They might reach full excursion at 25 watts at 30hz, etc, which is why Mitch was concerned with dynamics at 200hz. If he has to decrease power to keep them safe at 30hz, they won't be seeing their full potential at higher frequencies.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

mikey7182 said:


> I'm not worried about my subs unloading- the H701 has a SSF. Well technically, it has a HPF and LPF for all 8 channels, so I'm good. My enclosure is a bit different than a regular ported enclosure so I will need to be careful to set a HPF/SSF for them. The low end/rear chambers of the bandpass are tuned to about 33hz, so I will probably set my SSF at 31.5hz or whatever Alpine's option is around there.
> 
> What I meant with the 2206H midbass, because they will be in enclosures tuned to 50hz, if I ran them down to 30hz (in other words, with no HPF/SSF), they would quickly unload. Generally speaking, a driver in a ported enclosure has the least excursion at the tuning frequency, but below that frequency, excursion rises quickly. Another way to look at it would be that power handling decreases as frequency does (in a ported enclosure below tuning). So technically, I could run the 2206H down to 30hz to see how they sounded, but I wouldn't be able to feed them the same 250w they'll be getting above 50hz. They might reach full excursion at 25 watts at 30hz, etc, which is why Mitch was concerned with dynamics at 200hz. If he has to decrease power to keep them safe at 30hz, they won't be seeing their full potential at higher frequencies.


Gotcha


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

The PHL's are very similar to the Audax's but with 4x travel and 1 or 2 db more efficiency below 1000Hz.

Thehatedguy wrote this about them:
"From what I was told, the PHL 1120s are a muscled up cousin of the Audax...the owner of PHL Phillippe Lesage designed the Audax speakers. I used the PHL 2540s too and liked them a lot too."

If I port the boxes for the 2204s to 30Hz and use a subsonic I shouldn't have a problem with excursion. According to UniBox everything works out perfect, plenty of volume with good efficiency. _BUT_ you bring up a very good point; 'how will they sound' at 30Hz. Don't know. The 2226 you tested profile very well at 30Hz in UniBox also; so I don't know. 

You must have a lot of credibility with me because you have almost changed my mind about going subless.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Lol, well I am flattered. I am always learning just like the rest of us. Your preferences may be different, but I ran the 2226 in 5cf each ported and tuned in the mid 30s and I yanked them out in favor of a pair of W15GTi. The only pro audio woofer I have used that ice not found lacking <40hz were those BMS 18N862. There's a reason they retail for $1k/ea. God those things were amazing.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Mitch, do you have the PHLs already? From what I've heard PHL is pretty much done and supplies are drying up around the globe.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

So a few updates and pics- sorry it's taken a bit longer than usual. Trying to wrap up the paint project and start/finish the install has been rather involved.  So first, the paint and body is finished completely, polished and reassembled. I've been hunting for over a month for a set of factory 16" ZQ8 wheels as I've had the stock 15" steel wheels since I've owned the truck. There were two styles of ZQ8 wheels and I really wanted the newer ones, but being that they came on only a few years of S10/Sonoma, they were almost impossible to find. The dealership wanted like $600/wheel, guys on the forums were asking $500 shipped for used sets with curb rash and no center caps. The hunt wasn't going well. But I didn't want to go aftermarket and flashy. I'm not bagging it and putting 20s on; that's not my style. Finally, I found a company who makes replica wheels and the price for brand new wheels was more reasonable than either of the options listed above. I also ordered a new snap-on tonneau cover for the truck. Here's how the truck started in December and ended up today:





What made a "ZQ8" a ZQ8 was a factory suspension which was essentially a 2/3 drop from stock, and those wheels, so I am in the process of tracking down suspension to lower the truck a bit. I don't want to slam it; just close the gap a bit between the tire and wheel well like it was meant to. Because of the significant weight in the bed and the fact that I already have air shocks in the rear, I am going to do a 2/2 drop then fine-tune the ride height with the shocks.

So here are some pics of the enclosure construction:

As always, I use threaded inserts on all drivers:



I used a dark grey Plastidip to coat the inside of the enclosure. First time using this material and I actually like it. Pretty flexible, scuff resistant, much less smelly than the bedliner spray, and if it sucks you peel it off 





Due to design constraints, the subs had to be mounted before completion of the enclosure, so they are sealed in there for good. I thought about using a bead of butyl rope and threaded inserts to secure the lid of the entire enclosure over the Titebond glue and brad nails I used, but I wasn't sure how it would end up so I figure if I have to tear the enclosure apart at some point, such is life. I could have also done the rear in plexiglass and rear-mounted the woofers, but a lot more work/money/time than I cared to invest at this point.



The speaker wires are terminated in this way:



Front chamber port in place:



So for the 'lid' I measured out to the middle of every single piece inside the enclosure that would need to be secured, then drew myself a grid where I would need to brad nail to ensure nothing poked through or wasn't centered. It turned out very well. If you look, you can see the lines that are drawn. The top of every baffle, port wall, divider, etc has a line where its center is. Here is the lid on with about a half bottle of wood glue and 8 clamps 





Getting the enclosure in place was interesting as usual, but not as bad this time as I preclamped the 1/2" base to the bottom of the enclosure with the butyl rope sandwiched in between. Unfortunately I don't have pics of this (my phone was dead) but it is very similar to my previous builds. Carpet tiles down in place, threaded inserts in the 1/2" MDF, bolts through the bottom of the bed securing the base in place and the enclosure secured by the butyl rope. I ran rope along the front of the enclosure as well, and made some side pieces to complete the seal. Here is the enclosure installed. And yes, my OCD is driven nuts by the leads on the 2206, but whatever dumbass did the recones, didn't line up the leads to match one another, or to align with the mounting holes. Oh well:



And here is the trim panel in its beginning stages (sorry for the blurry pics):





I found a great deal on BNIB Optima Yellow Tops, so I purchased two of them- one for the main battery and one as a secondary for the system. In the past I've mounted a Kinetik in the bed. I decided that I wanted both batteries under the hood. Not a whole lot of room in an S10. Except, the factory airbox takes up an absurd amount of space. It starts off on the passenger side, leaves the intake, goes down to the alternator, u-bends back up, goes all the way across the top of the fan shroud, and over into the driver's side area and takes up a space the size of a large RV battery. All for a 2.2L 4 cylinder.  So, I removed all the factory intake components, bought a cone filter and made my own adapter out of a PVC coupler and rubber boot, lengthened the air intake temp sensor wire and re-routed it to the PVC. Drilled a hole, fitted it in with a grommet, and sealed it with RTV. Here's the battery process:

Space where the factory airbox used to be:



We welded together a new tray with angle steel, making a bottom for the battery, a 'foot' that extends down to the frame of the truck, and a lip for the top that screws into the metal subframe that the radiator mounts to:









Also not pictured, we welded some nuts to the sides of the frame, and will secure the battery in place with some J-hooks and strap. I also drilled a hole through the triangular portion of the bottom of the 'foot' and into the frame, then used a 5/16" self-threading bolt to secure the foot to the frame of the truck so the entire structure is completely secure.

The two batteries for test fitment. Sorry everything is so dirty. It will be cleaned up with final install/wiring pics.



My door panels were completely scratched and sun-faded from sitting for two years. I had a local paint/auto body place mix me some factory code Pewter in a rattle can and touched up both my door panels as well as a few other trim pieces. I didn't take 'before' pics but here is how they turned out:



Lighting sucks in this one and makes it look discolored but they actually turned out very well. If you look closely in this pic, you'll also see the fullsize ID horn installed. I painted the horns with the same SEM Pewter paint to match the interior. Both JBL 2118H are also installed behind the doors in the same baffles/panels I've used in previous installs, so not much to see there:



Another issue I had was bed height. Fitting 15" subwoofers in a 6th order bandpass, ported midbass, making sure I had everything right in the footprint I had to work with, took quite a bit of design/engineering. My old tonneau cover gave me a height of about 18" from the bottom of the bed to where the enclosure would hit the cross members/ support rails, even though the bed height is 16.5". I built this enclosure 17" tall, but with the 1/2" MDF base, carpet tiles, butyl rope, etc, it added up, and my new tonneau cover didn't give me quite the height the old one did. So, not to be deterred, I got creative. I went to Home Depot and bought some 1/2" tall aluminum C-channel and some double-sided weatherstripping adhesive (what you'd use on a camper shell). I laid the weatherstripping down on the bed rails, cut the C-channel lengths to fit, and coated the C-channel pieces in black Plastidip, which ended up matching the black frame of the tonneau pretty closely. I bought some longer bolts for the brackets that mount/secure the frame to the bed rails since elevating it 5/8" (including weatherstripping) didn't allow me to use the bolts that came with it. Here is the C-channel and frame installed. I have since trimmed away most of the visible weatherstripping:



I would like to find a way to clean up the corners a bit. The rear piece was interesting because when the tailgate opens, what keeps it from falling? I found that there was both an inner and outer channel on the frame of the tonneau. The rear section of the frame that goes over the tailgate doesn't utilize the inner channel for anything; just the outer channel for the snaps. So I took some 1/2" self-tapping screws and secured the aluminum C-channel to the tonneau frame through the inner channel so it isn't visible. Now it doesn't fall when the tailgate is opened. 

One last thing- I am using a W200/H701 combo, and had an old Sony Unilink cable kicking around that is supposed to be the same as the Ai-Net (and I didn't have an Ai-Net cable). I also had to buy a PAC TR-7 bypass (I don't watch movies while I drive, or ever for that matter) but I do like to tune on the go sometimes and I don't have a functioning e-brake. So the Unilink cable was like 18' long- way longer than I needed- so I cut it open, and got some good advice from WestCo, and essentially shortened it. Once the TR7 showed up, I was able to set up a bench using one of the new Optimas to see if everything works:



Bingo. 

I am driving to Utah this weekend to deliver a car to my sister, then have Spring Break next week to hopefully wrap this up. I need to carpet that trim panel, build an amp rack, build some custom brackets to hold my double DIN in a 1.5 DIN dash opening, and get everything wired up. Maybe get a HO alternator. More to come. Thanks for tuning in!


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

You will have to post a pic if you ever get a ticket that say "tuning on the go" lol. Nice updates.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Mitch, do you have the PHLs already? From what I've heard PHL is pretty much done and supplies are drying up around the globe.



I have been looking for more PHL 1120's for at least 2 years. I have got 2 now. I have a source for the 1160s' They are supposed to be very similar sounding with the 1160 a little better down low and not quite as airy on top. What are your thoughts.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

1160 or 1660? Never heard anything about the 1160.

I heard the 1660 was better down low giving up some on the top.

But I can't find much of any of them now. Zalytron last time I checked had a single neo magnet 1660 left.

Teamaudio.fr has 1160s in stock though.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Nice way to freak me out Jason.

On the Teamaudio.fr Website they list the 1120, 1220, and 1660 for ‘Advanced Studio Monitoring’ 

The 1660 has similar specs to the 1120 but is no longer available. The 1160 also has similar specs to the 1120 and in available ($102 + S/H) from Teamaudio.fr but it listed on their website as “rugged contact class”. That doesn’t sound like high fidelity to me although I have heard it is a very godd sounding speaker.

Interestingly the 1220 ($120+ S/H) has an fs of 45 and 3.5mm of travel with a sensitivity of 93. That should be perfect for my center channel if I want to get down to 200-250Hz. They also have a 1220TWX ($220) which is a coax? Comes with the tweeter but not the xo!

Also interesting is the B&C 6MD38. Jeff B. wrote this about the B&C 6MD38 ($86):
“What I find interesting here is the B&C 6MD38 is as near to a drop-in replacement of the PHL 1120 as you can get. Not only do they look very similar, and appear that they may work with the same recess even, but the specifications and even the frequency response plot itself match my PHL data almost to a T. Given the fact that PHL has become near to impossible to find in the States lately and the high price when you do, these drivers look like just the ticket for great midrange performance. I wouldn't hesitate to give one a try.”

The plots can be found on Zaph’s website in the ongoing 6.5” tests.

I am interested in your thoughts Jason.

Sorry Mike about hijacking your thread.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't know too much about the B&C, but they were always on my list of speakers to try when PHL and Audax got hard to find...both of which did in various times. And it doesn't hurt that PE sells them either. If you want to try them out, let me know as I can get a break on them...though I don't know if it would be cheaper to get the free shipping at retail vs. wholesale and pay for shipping, but we can cross that bridge when/if you get to it.

That 6PEV looks pretty Audaxish to me too.

The rugged contact thing seems to me to be meaning it can stand the outdoor conditions pretty good...though it would help if the PHL website had been updated in the last 7 years.

Oh and I would tend to trust Jeff's opinion on things too seeing as he has worked with both of those drivers, and he is a pretty straight shooter.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Wasn't B&C the OEM for the IDWs? 

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

No sir they were not. I know who was and promised Eric that I wouldn't tell. It's not a very prominent company that you would have heard of.



quality_sound said:


> Wasn't B&C the OEM for the IDWs?
> 
> Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Ok, sorry to those who have been keeping up with this, as it hasn't been at my typical neck-break pace.  Buuuuut, tons of progress this week (it was my spring break and the kids went to grandma's house). I injured my back early in the week which was a bit discouraging and slowed my pace but I managed to get everything finished with the exception of some minor trim/finish work. I just spent an hour listening to it! More on that in a minute. Here are the pics of my progress this week:

First, the second battery installed. I fabbed a holder out of threaded rod J-hooks and some 1/8" steel. Drilled holes in it and wrapped it in red heatshrink:



I also made a plate mount for my main fuse holder out of truss tie, and using existing bolts for mounting points. I painted it black:



Here's a finished shot of under the hood, after I cleaned it up a bit and ran all the wires:



I also upgraded some of the old Big 3 I had done, and grounded the new battery to a new spot on the frame on the driver's side.

As far as the amp rack, my options were a bit limited given the space, even with small amps, and I have done this several times before in various configurations. I am happy with how this turned out. I built it in two pieces- one larger piece on the passenger side holds the H701, one 4 channel and the mono:



Then a smaller piece on the driver's side holds the other 4 channel and the Streetwires CBR44 dist. block:



As always, I used threaded inserts for all mounts (which were exciting to find once it was carpeted)! Here are a few shots of the amps test fit in place:





I bought a factory carpet kit to replace my old trashed one (after it had sat for two years) and took the opportunity to get that installed. It was a bit tricky as it wasn't perfectly molded as they claim, but it worked out pretty well and I am sure it will settle in as time goes by. It's funny, the truck carpet and the carpet I used for the amp rack look almost identical in person but in this pic they look completely different:



So I've done installs where almost all the wire is hidden, and brought up through small holes in the amp rack. I had taken some time a month or two ago to organize all my various install products and found that I had a ton of Techflex and heatshrink left. So that was my theme this time. I wanted to show off the wiring a bit, and everything is color coded based on L/R and driver, as well as +/-. Here's a pic during the wiring process, which was very time consuming:



And here's everything complete with the seats back in. All the various bundles are zip tied every 4-6":







Hard to get a feel for it but it actually looks rather clean and organized, especially considering how much is going on behind the seat.

I also found out that in 2003, Chevy and Oldsmobile offered factory Nav for the first time in the Blazer and the Bravada, respectively. Since they all share the same dash, they made a dash kit to house a double DIN. This was very good news for me since the last time I had a W200 in the dash, I had to fab up my own brackets and it was a nightmare getting it to sit in there just right. Here's the HU in the dash:





As for listening impressions...  I gave it my usual quick tune, as I am quite familiar with both the W200/H701 and the gear I am running. I've definitely got some EQ work to do, and perhaps a bit of level matching, but I ended up with a decent stage for just doing a quick tune. Insane amounts of midbass, very solid bottom end, and great front end. I will give more updates as I continue to get it dialed in. Tonight was just a preliminary run to basically make sure everything worked, I connected it properly, no technical issues, etc. Very satisfied after a very long week of working on it.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Just a few more small updates cosmetically- 

Last night I installed my ZQ8 suspension, which lowered the truck 2" all the way around (spindles up front, blocks in the rear). Spindles are nice because I retained all my suspension travel up front, so it's not a bad ride, and this was the factory suspension on the LS/ZQ8/Extreme trucks. 

Here's a pic of us grinding down the U-Bolts. The iPhone takes decent night pics:



And the truck this morning after I washed and waxed it:







I've spent the last week replacing and painting trim panels, clips, etc. that were missing from before. I have a 200A alternator showing up tomorrow, and a dash mat later this week.

As for the install, I think I've made a lot of headway in getting it tuned. Still don't have my stage exactly where I want it, but it's improved greatly. The subwoofer enclosure seems to be wonderful. They blend seamlessly with the 2206, and everything is tighter than a pre-priest Catholic schoolboy. Once again, the butyl rope worked its magic and completely decoupled the enclosure from the truck. I stood outside with it absolutely cranked, closed the door, and the only thing that (occasionally) vibrated quietly was the fuel door. If I had some extra MLV laying around I'd slap a piece on the inside, but that's being extremely picky. This thing should be shaking and ratting the entire truck. Tons of impact, no (audible) rattles or vibrations inside. No engine noise. Really happy with how tight everything sounds. Still playing with xover points. Currently, I am:

Subs- SSF 31hz, LPF 63hz, -24db/oct slopes, reverse phase
2206- 63-280hz, -24db/oct both in phase
2118- 280-900hz, -24db/oct, drivers' side reverse phase
Horns- >900hz, -24db/oct, both reverse phase

One thing I am unclear on is the natural rolloff of a quasi-6th order bandpass enclosure. I would assume its 36db/oct (6th order) but to me, using 24db/oct slopes seems to blend them the same as they did with the 2206 when I was running them vented. If I use a more shallow slope on the subs, they sound muddy and there's too much overlap that needs to be EQ'd out from 60-120hz, which seems to defeat the purpose of the more shallow slope. I'm trying to find the sweet spot for the 2118. Too low on the HPF and I lose some of the impact from the 2206, too high on the LPF and I lose staging that I gain by running my horns lower. But I don't want to narrow the 2118 down to say 315-800hz. It just seems... limited?  LOL I don't know. Any input from my horn buddies? It's always been tough getting the stage perfect in this truck because it's so damn small inside the cab. Even having a passenger affects the stage.

We've got a local meet coming up in 2-3 weeks and I am eager to get some impressions and feedback from some of the other local members. Too bad Eric won't drive over from Cali!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Here are some better shots of the horns. I color matched them with the interior:


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

You have either really cleaned up that interior or taken damn good care of it. Of course I realize this hasn't been you daily driver for 10 years like my poor chev.

Horns look nice. Im really debating horns once its time to upgrade the frontstage.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Everything in this truck is essentially repainted or new. The carpet is new. I'm not terribly happy with how it fits considering it's 'factory molded' but it looks a lot better than a floor covered in Luxury Liner Pro.  Because the truck sat so long, a lot of the panels were sun faded, so I was originally going to replace them all but I bought that factory paint in a spray can and it was perfect. I tested it on a door panel and it made it look brand new again, so I hit the rest of the panels that needed it.

I spent all morning with laquer thinner cleaning all the overspray and residue out of the door jambs (jams? Jambs?) and also wet sanded and polished my headlights and tail lights. I'm fortunate that it only has 58k miles and it's nice to take the time to do little detail work that I used to not care so much about.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

Did you use SEM paint for the interior. I have this issue, the outside of my truck is almost flawless. The engine will easily go for another 10 years with the amount of driving i actually do. But the interior is getting so worn out that its driving me nuts. First step is carpet. I cant handle the rubber "carpet" anymore.

Did you need to do an e-brake relocation for the horns?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I did use SEM paint. There's a local place called Space Age that is awesome for auto body/paint supply and they also have tons of factory clips, fasteners, gaskets, seals etc for way less than the dealer. 

I didn't have to relocate my e-brake for the horns, but years ago I did kick panels in this truck and got rid of (aka like an idiot, took an air saw to) my e brake pedal. :/ You have to understand this truck at that point was a complete beater and project truck that had chipped paint and factory steel wheels. I was more about function than form. I am sourcing a new e brake assembly from a local salvage yard and may be replacing my seats since they are ripped and stained from the previous owner.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I just don't know how effective that round over would be. You would want it to go all the way across the horn.

Did the bandpass perform anywhere near like that the modeling was showing?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Oh, make you a piece that goes across the bottom of the dash between the horns so they will couple together and terminate those sides too. 

If you wanted to, make that center console smaller too.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> I just don't know how effective that round over would be. You would want it to go all the way across the horn.
> 
> Did the bandpass perform anywhere near like that the modeling was showing?


I was thinking that as well. I installed these how I got them. It appears that the edge of the PVC is in line with the opening of the throat, rather than the edge of the mouth. I did a pair before the way you describe. Not sure if I noticed much difference either way honestly. The foam on the other hand is great.

The enclosure is performing awesome so far. I don't remember exactly how it modeled but it has much more focused output it seems. There's a lot going on inside this tiny cab, especially at high volumes, and I am still ironing a few things out but so far I am really happy with the results.

Not sure about reducing the size of the center console. What's the advantage in joining the horns together? What would I make such a piece out of?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Just to terminate those sides. And for cosmetic reasons.

Could make the piece out of anything really- thin wood, plastic, etc. Then dye it to match the horns and dash so that it looks like one whole piece going across the bottom of the dash.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

The main issue is there are some electronics in the way that prevent this, in front of the shifter console. Then the console is also obstructing the path. Can they just be terminated into the console? I guess I don't understand the purpose other than cosmetically. Most horn installs I see are similar to mine in this regard. What does it do acoustically/functionally?


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

I'm a little confused on the position of the round over on the bottom of the waveguide. Isn't it supposed to be up more in the opening of the horn? I was going to try this on mine, just haven't had the time yet.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

If it were me, I wouldn't stick them inside Eric's horns.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

These horns originally had the round over inside and I think these were there from a previous install, but one of the round overs was broken and I took the other one off. But yes, normally the round over underneath is all the way to the outer edge of the mouth. 

J- what diameter of PVC would you use on the full size? Equal to the opening of the mouth?


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

I see. I had to go back and do some reading in your thread. I saw where you said you were running the JBL 2118's but didn't see a pic of them. I'm running them in my car with the mini horns. My biggest issue is the staging likes to take a nose dive on the passenger side. Have you tested the 2118's on axis?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

bigbubba said:


> I see. I had to go back and do some reading in your thread. I saw where you said you were running the JBL 2118's but didn't see a pic of them. I'm running them in my car with the mini horns. My biggest issue is the staging likes to take a nose dive on the passenger side. Have you tested the 2118's on axis?


Have you tried Eric's tuning tutorial for horns? It works great for staging. Not sure what your xover points look like, but I have a pretty solid stage and have had good luck in the past with horns and the 2118. Here:



> before using the TA to bring up height reverse polarity/phase of both horns together to see if it raises the stage.
> 
> So in this order
> - put one side out of phase Horn and midbass driver
> ...


As for the 2118, I have run them on axis, but it was in a Dodge Magnum and they were in sealed kicks. I think they sounded good but they took up too much space, so I didn't leave them in very long and ended up dismantling the build in that car and trading it in. 

In this truck, my 2118 are in the factory locations in the doors.


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

Yeah, I tried Eric's tutorial but still having issues. My horns are pushed back way under the dash and I think the center section of the dash and the center console are contributing to the problem. 

Didn't mean to derail your thread. Your truck is coming along great and will continue to see what you do with it next.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

bigbubba said:


> Yeah, I tried Eric's tutorial but still having issues. My horns are pushed back way under the dash and I think the center section of the dash and the center console are contributing to the problem.
> 
> Didn't mean to derail your thread. Your truck is coming along great and will continue to see what you do with it next.


You didn't derail it at all. Half the reason I bother putting one together is to get feedback or share ideas with other members. If it sparks a conversation and helps someone else out as other build logs have done for me, then mission accomplished. 

Do you have a build log? What do you drive, what are you using for processing and what are your xover points? Sub type/enclosure/location?


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/150163-2004-monte-carlo.html


Processing is from a P99. I thought I read somewhere that the 2118's are better off axis but haven't verified that yet. I think I'm fixin' to wipe everything out and start from scratch again. Also, thinking of testing the 2118's in the door just to see what happens. Luckily the doors will accept them without cutting and I still have wires run in there. 

Subs- LPF 80hz, -24db/oct slopes, reverse phase
2118- 80-800hz, -24db/oct, both in phase
Horns- >800hz, -24db/oct, both in phase


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You are way too low on the XO point for the minis. They will unload past 900 hertz, and 1k is as about as low as you would want to run them. Me personally, depending on the drivers, I like the minis 1.2-1.5k hertz. You would need a very robust driver to put them down at 1k or a touch lower.

Bump the XO points up on both the horns and midbasses.

Then I would work on flipping polarity to see which brought the image up.

A big center console will screw things up too. Put a towel around it where the horns are firing at to see if that helps.

I will check out your thread in a sec.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I haven't personally messed with the round overs on the horns. Eric didn't know how much they would help. But I might would try some 2" PVC ripped down the middle and attached to the whole bottom side. That's just a WAG though. Anything smaller, and you would have to question exactly what good is it doing, and any larger you would really be pushing drivability.

My last attempt before I had to sell everything, I had the kickpanels flushed with the edges of the horn, so it could make one large piece to the floor on the bottom and use the dash on the top. Never knew how it did though, but it made sense at the time...lol.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I've done a lot of things that made sense at the time, and looking back in hindsight I wonder WTF I was doing...  But I can picture what you're saying and it sounds good in theory.

I've got it to where I think it is pretty well dialed in, but recordings are so different that it's tough to get it just perfect for everything. I find myself playing with the TA on the 2118 and the horns to adjust stage depending on albums, but for the most part I think it's solid. Of course nobody else has ever really sat in my truck from a tuning perspective (someone like you or Eric or another horn guy) and given me tips either, and I've never competed, so I don't really know how it sounds compared to others. I know I've gotten a lot of compliments on it thus far, but this is more of a visceral experience rather than an SQ truck in the lanes. There's a **** ton of energy inside that tiny little cab. Hard to know exactly how to make it perfect, but I am really happy so far with the results.

Bigbubba- awesome build, first off. Your fabrication skills are impressive. I would echo Jason in that if you haven't already, play with phase on the horns and the drivers mid. I know they're on axis, but you may be able to raise your stage height quite a bit with phase and some xover adjustments.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> You are way too low on the XO point for the minis. They will unload past 900 hertz, and 1k is as about as low as you would want to run them. Me personally, depending on the drivers, I like the minis 1.2-1.5k hertz. You would need a very robust driver to put them down at 1k or a touch lower.
> 
> Bump the XO points up on both the horns and midbasses.
> 
> ...


Eric even suggest the use of the full body for big center console... 
I know Matt and Eric always had fights about which type of body to use but since Eric designed the horns, I would trust Eric  

My big bodys with CD1v.3 are good down to about 1.25kHz before sounding "raspy". A better driver would probably help to use it down to 800Hz-1kHz. 
I haven't used mini body horns but I don't think they would sound that good crossed lower than 1.25kHz - especially if you like to turn the volume to high levels. 

Kelvin


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I'm no tuning master for sure.

I know where to start and where I like to get to...but takes me forever to get there, if I ever do.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> I'm no tuning master for sure.
> 
> I know where to start and where I like to get to...but takes me forever to get there, if I ever do.


Same here, am no master unfortunately but when I manage to get something sounding great, I then know this sounds great 
And since I already heard a car system sounding awesome, I always try to achieve it. 

Kelvin


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Alright, new page, new owner!

For those that didn't see the classifieds thread, Mikey sold the S-10 for a more family friendly car since he has a son on the way, and I picked it up with the full system documented in this thread 

After dozens of emails and questions back and forth and working out transportation details, it was delivered to me yesterday afternoon. 

When picked up:










Back home with my Lancer:










After a quick clean:




























Gave the interior a quick wipe down and it looks pretty good:










Pulled the passenger door panel off to replace the lock actuator that Mike said was broken and got a couple shots of the 2118 in there while I was at it: 




















He did not mess around with the deadening! These doors are HEAVY. Many layers of mat and then a top layer of CCF. Good stuff.



Anyway, I rocked out with a couple CDs he included on the way home and tried out the 2 main presets, then put in my iPod once I got back and went through some other stuff. This thing is scary! As you'd expect, the impact is just nuts  Dave Mathews, Metallica, Blue Man Group, Godsmack, Celldweller.. kickass. It is very concert-like in presentation. Lots of fun.

SQ wise, width is good, depth and height were about where I expected. Definitely not bad for a relatively quick ear tune. I pulled out the RTA and started checking everything out to learn the response characteristics of the system/cabin, and learn the 200/701 combo. After a few hours setting independent L/R EQ and some t/a tweaks, I had tightened up the focus, raised and deepened the stage, and smoothed out a couple peaks. And then cause I'm a noob to tuning with the Alpine, I deleted everything I had just done 

So tonight I'm going to try to recreate what I did yesterday. But that's the story for now. 

Anyway, it's gonna be a fun little truck. I intend to make a trim panel for the bed and between the 2 horns, and experiment with roundovers on the horns as well. Otherwise, just tune and enjoy.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

You better leave that Tool sticker on.


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## dallasneon (Nov 3, 2005)

Good to see the truck went to someone who will take care of it. Congrats! Great looking truck!


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

Wow Grayson....congratulations! I guess it was destiny that you ended up with this truck. I was going back and reading and saw this comment you made back in 2011.


"_Every description I read of this truck makes me want something like this more and more. Seems like it's absolutely incredible.

Seriously, it sounds like exactly what I want. I don't think my little Mitsu could hold 15" subs and 12" midbasses though_. "


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Yeah, when he emailed me, I immediately recognized his last name as his username, and remembered he had posted in a few of my build logs. Very happy it has gone to a good home. Hopefully he can replicate his sweet tune from last night and save it into memory this time!


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Future plans for you now, Mikey? 

Kelvin


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

subwoofery said:


> Future plans for you now, Mikey?
> 
> Kelvin


I bought a 2010 VW Passat 2.0T Komfort Sedan. It's black metallic with black leather interior. 37k miles. Pretty sharp car and fits all my offspring. 

The factory HU is actually really nice. It's touchscreen, 6 disc changer, BT, AUX in, and from what I've read, the Komfort package came with an optional disc changer in the glovebox (I haven't found the lead yet) but apparently they sell some adapter for iPod so I can access the menus on the HU directly instead of using the AUX. If so, I would likely do another H701 or H800, with the controller in the center console (I don't like laptop-tuned processors because I tweak a lot). Just tap into the audio coming out of the factory HU, run that to the processor, and go from there.

The front door pockets are massive, and I would like to explore ported 10s in some fiberglass enclosures, but it's a bit above my skill level so I will likely pay someone to do that. The kicks are massive, especially with removal of the dead pedal, and the underside of the dash is perfectly flat for ideal horn mounting. I'm thinking:

B&C 10NW64, 1cf ported in doors
Audax PR170M0 in kicks
ID horn lenses with either DE500 or BMS 4550
single W15GTi in 4th order, with the vent run up through the factory SW location in the rear deck and vented into the cabin

It'll be awhile before I can put all this together, but that's my vision.  I'll let Grayson enjoy his newly commandeered build log and I'll start my own when the time comes.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Well I was able to recreate the tune from the previous night after a few more hours last night. All the stuff I listed with regards to height, depth, focus, and staging apply. Tweaked the gains to make more of the volume range on the HU available. With no back seat or space between seat back and headrest, and the stupid long preamp for my mic, it was "fun" trying to get the mic in a good spot lol.

Only thing I didn't tune yet was the sub. Just got too late and I was too tired, so that'll be tonight. Nothing really wrong with it by ear, I just want to see how it measures and play some more with crossover slope and phase of the sub/midbass.

But basically, it kicks ass. When I was done tuning I listed to some Five Finger Death Punch, Metallica, Brian Bromberg. Nucking futs man. 

I'll post some graphs and stuff if I have time tonight. Right now, gotta get over to the DMV and get this thing registered!


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Please be at finals with this truck. It has the box design from my red truck and I never got to hear it.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

mikey7182 said:


> I bought a 2010 VW Passat 2.0T Komfort Sedan. It's black metallic with black leather interior. 37k miles. Pretty sharp car and fits all my offspring.
> 
> The factory HU is actually really nice. It's touchscreen, 6 disc changer, BT, AUX in, and from what I've read, the Komfort package came with an optional disc changer in the glovebox (I haven't found the lead yet) but apparently they sell some adapter for iPod so I can access the menus on the HU directly instead of using the AUX. If so, I would likely do another H701 or H800, with the controller in the center console (I don't like laptop-tuned processors because I tweak a lot). Just tap into the audio coming out of the factory HU, run that to the processor, and go from there.
> 
> ...


You make me want to revisit my BMW's install in order to try some rear mounted HUGE midbasses 

Kelvin


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Grayson,

The last time we met for dinner then Todd's you said it'd be a while before you could make it back down to OKC due to work. But dammitt, you GOTTA make it down soon, because I've wanted to hear this thing for years now!  I'm sure everyone in the group would be itching to have a listen too!

Hell, if you can't anytime soon I'll just have to drive my ass up to Enid. 

I'm very happy & excited for you. And jealous.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Kevin I should be able to this Friday with the long weekend coming up 

Jim, finals probably isn't gonna happen since I'll be about 5 weeks into flying by then. But you're welcome to drop by on the way out or back


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> You better leave that Tool sticker on.


Agreed. 

Mikey, you seriously didn't make that a line item in the purchase agreement. 

I'm also happy to see that you like it Grayson. It is cool that you are taking no time at all to dive in head first with tuning it to your liking.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Yep, it's a chance to learn a whole new system/install and see what I can squeeze out of it. Wish I had more time, but oh well.

Also, Jim next time I'm at Todd's we'll run the woofer tester on the sub box and see if the results match with theory. As it is, it gets loud and seems like the woofers hardly move


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

fish said:


> Grayson,
> 
> The last time we met for dinner then Todd's you said it'd be a while before you could make it back down to OKC due to work. But dammitt, you GOTTA make it down soon, because I've wanted to hear this thing for years now!  I'm sure everyone in the group would be itching to have a listen too!
> 
> ...


Yes, you'll finally get to hear it man! I forgot you lived in OK! That's awesome. Maybe Mitch will make the drive up from ATL. I know he's wanted to hear it for a long time too.

Dustin, I think that's about the only thing I wasn't specific about in the purchase agreement... you should see our email thread!


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Alright, finally some updates.

Went home for the long weekend and took the truck. I was rocking out in full concert mode the whole way - stupid high volume and - you may laugh - earplugs... lol. But really, it's very concert-like in presentation and I love going to concerts to experience the energy and impact that you only get from live sound. But as I'm sure some on this board can tell you, that'll wreck your hearing after a while. So for a 5 hour drive, that was necessary. It's too much fun not to crank it up.

Blah blah blah anyway... after listening to my first tune for a week or two a few things started to stand out that I wanted to fix. Focus was pretty good but could be better. Depth at low volume was pretty good but seemed to decrease at higher volume. I crushed too much of the dynamic abilities of the horns with EQ.

So last night I went out and tried to fix that stuff. Re-RTA'd and tried to use a bit less EQ, re-did time alignment, reset levels, played with phase, etc. Got it pretty good, I thought. Went to listen tonight and did some more tweaking of t/a, phase, and crossover slopes.

These graphs are from last night and don't reflect the latest changes but should be pretty close. They were taken at 1/24 octave and smoothed to 1/3 octave since that's what the 701 has EQ-wise.

Mids and tweets: Left, right, and the combined response is obviously the louder one above the other 2.










Midbass:










Sub, midbass, mids separate:










Whole system:










Playing with levels, phase, and t/a tonight probably changed that one the most. I'll check when I have time next.

Couple things:

The horns have very similar response shapes, especially above 3K which is nice. The mids do too. I can't do anything more about the bump at 300 and 115 - EQ is maxed out there on the mids and midbass, respectively. Too bad you can't use the graphic and parametric at the same time with the 701.

Anyway, got it pretty good tonight, I think. Could probably still use a couple tweaks to get everything phase aligned as well as possible, but it's pretty close. Got some more snap back in the top end, better focus, better height, still good impact. This sub/box combo is really impressive. I believe it's designed for gain between 25 and 65 or so, but I ran them up to like 200 as I was testing everything and man can they hit hard. All while seemingly barely moving.

Enough rambling for tonight..


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

Decent looking graphs.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Yep, not bad. Any horn guys have thoughts on how much is good/safe to boost the top end?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Glad you're getting it further dialed in! Looks good. I don't see any issue with boosting the top end more. You should be far from clipping even with the gains down, relative to the output of your other drivers. What's it at now? I think I shipped it with +1db from 12khz up.

Another thing you could try is removing the foam from the throat, as that reduces top end output, but you'll lose some advantages in the 2k-6k range and you'll have to retune.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I've upped the top end boost to 2-3dB, so not a whole lot different. The above graphs were with 1-2dB of boost.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Leave the foam.

I wouldn't worry too much about the very very top end of things...chances are you would be hard to really hear it. And some of the droop could be the roll off of the driver's themselves.

I have two kids screaming at me to go outside...so when I get a chance I will get back here.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I would attribute the top end drop more to the vertical directionality of the horns and their height. I'd bet if you were more on-axis with them in the vertical axis the drop wouldn't be as "severe". You're measuring a culmination of all sound in an area and horns' natural high directivity in this axis is what drives what you see in the measurements.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

So, what if you pulled the dash, and moved the horns to the area between the dash and the windshield like Mark Eldridge's 4Runner. (That was him, wasn't it? Essentially making the dash and windshield extensions of the mouth of the horn?) Kidding. Sorta. lol

Jay


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Erin, I think that's definitely a part of it. Kirk recommended measuring from the mouth of the horn back to the listening position to see what the actual response of the horn looks like vs at the headrest which would include reflections and everything.

Jay, I think there's someone else on this site who's doing just what you said. He said it works well. Some of the other people I've talked to said it would probably cause a bunch of other issues. Idk. But I don't have the time anymore to be tearing the whole thing apart lol. It's gonna stay like this for the foreseeable future.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Grayson, you can calculate where the beaming will be. Remember, beaming is dependent up smallest size. So, with a rectangle, you have different beaming points (each based on height and width). Off the top, I can't think of any FR data that I've seen for horns to illustrate this (I'm sure I could find it if I spent some time googling it), so take this RAAL ribbon for example:
http://www.raalribbon.com/download/raal_140-15d.pdf

You'll notice the response between vertical and horizontal looks the same BUT...
look at the legend... the FR measurements steps for the horizontal response is about 30* increments. The vertical is about 5 degree increments. 


Anyway, that's a good illustration of just how drastic the directivity of a speaker can be between horizontal vs vertical when it has a non-circular geometry.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

What's the raw horn and midrange response look like?

Erin, you might find some plots of asymmetric horns on the net, but probably nothing that would resemble what is going on with the geometry of these horns.

If you wanted more in depth knowledge about that stuff, hit up the man who designed them...he's on here.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Without going back and reading the entire thread, the full size body roll off around 14khz and depending on which driver is being used it will contribute to the top end roll off.

Yes you can boost the crap out of it, but every 701/700 I have used when you apply boost in the 20k region leads to system hiss.
even mine, which Todd fixed and did some tweaks to, had hiss when you boost 16 and 20k .


Also horns are meant to be listened to OFF axis. moving them more on axis will make them sound VERY in your face and aggressive and also wreck their staging ability.
The more on axis you are, the worse it will be.

the simplest explanation is to use my car as an example--I'm 5'9 with shoes. when I or anyone taller listen to my car, they have stage height at horizon or eye level. Howard had stage height at eye level.
when Ally listened to my car from the judging position--the stage was in the floor bc she was very close to being on axis with the horn location.
When I boosted the seat for her, everything fell into place.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Jason you want to see un-EQ'd response I'm assuming? Both together? Separate L/R?

Mic yeah there's a little hiss, but idk if there's any more than there was before the boost. I'll check next time I'm out there.

How do you get things that are panned hard left or right to image at the same height?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah un EQed and no XO...or something very low.

Just curious.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

strakele said:


> Jason you want to see un-EQ'd response I'm assuming? Both together? Separate L/R?
> 
> Mic yeah there's a little hiss, but idk if there's any more than there was before the boost. I'll check next time I'm out there.
> 
> How do you get things that are panned hard left or right to image at the same height?


When its panned hard left or right--what frequency is pulling? I dont recall every having an issue with the upper midrange and highs pulling down...but definitely know what youre talking about with lower midrange.

play whatever the track is with just horns playing and see if it pulls. then with mids. etc...


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Seems pretty full spectrum, but probably mostly lower midrange. I'll try it next time I'm out there and get those measurements Jason. Crazy busy during the week these days. 12 hour duty days plus much more studying to be done at home.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

bc of the locations, some of it youll just have to live with or just quit listening to stuff with hard panned left or right.
I am sure you already tried pushing the TA on the mids out farther to bring the stage up???


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Subbing to see what you do to get this system sounding amazing.....like you did in the Lancer......I'm sure it is frustrating thinking about what you might want to do to adjust things without having the time to actually go out and try the things you are thinking. You will get it nailed down eventually


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

As requested: very wide crossovers and no EQ

Left horn - HPF 500Hz/24dB 
Green - at the horn mouth
Yellow - at my head, mic pointed up, sweeping from one ear to the other
Blue - mic pointed forward and slightly down from the headrest sweeping left to right










Right horn - HPF 500Hz / 24dB 
Purple - at the horn mouth
Yellow - at my head, mic pointed up, sweeping from one ear to the other
Blue - mic pointed forward and slightly down from the headrest sweeping left to right










Left vs right
Green - left horn at mouth from previous graph
Purple - right horn at mouth from previous graph
Aqua - left horn at listening position (averaged the mic pointing up and mic pointing forward results from previous)
Blue - right horn at listening position (averaged the mic pointing up and mic pointing forward results from previous)










Left mid - 56Hz - 10KHz / 24dB
Orange - mic right in front of speaker
Green - at my head, mic pointed up, sweeping from one ear to the other
Blue - mic pointed forward and slightly down from the headrest sweeping left to right










Right mid - 56Hz - 10KHz / 24dB
Aqua - mic right in front of speaker
Purple - at my head, mic pointed up, sweeping from one ear to the other
Blue - mic pointed forward and slightly down from the headrest sweeping left to right










Left vs right
Orange - left mid at speaker from previous graph
Aqua - right mid at speaker from previous graph
Yellow - left mid at listening position (averaged the mic pointing up and mic pointing forward results from previous)
Blue - right mid at listening position (averaged the mic pointing up and mic pointing forward results from previous)










Left midbass - 45Hz - 1KHz / 24dB
Purple - at my head, mic pointed up, sweeping from one ear to the other
Blue - mic pointed backward toward the speaker sweeping left to right










Right midbass - 45Hz - 1KHz / 24dB
Yellow - at my head, mic pointed up, sweeping from one ear to the other
Blue - mic pointed backward toward the speaker sweeping left to right










Left vs right
Purple - averaged result of both left measurements from previous graph
Blue - averaged result of both right measurements from previous graph










Subs - 25Hz / 12dB - 200Hz / 24db
Orange - at my head, mic pointed up, sweeping from one ear to the other
Blue - mic pointed backward at the opening between cabin and bed












All done using calibrated Dayton mic and TrueRTA with 50 averages, 1/24 octave resolution, no smoothing.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I wonder what is causing that dip around 10k on the horns?

I was kind of expecting that bump in the midbass around 125 because of cabin gain.

You could probably do a 6 dB crossover on the horns around 5k to get them sort of flat without a lot of EQ. But they are a lot flatter than I would have thought out of the box.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The sub enclosure is acting pretty much as we thought (I think) based on the sims.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That 10k dip is probably a reflection off of the center console/cup holder. If it were me, I would get rid of it and connect the horns to each other. And I can't tell or didn't read, but are the horns touching the dash in any way with a filler panel?

The peak down low on the midbasses are probably about where they are tuned to.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Not sure on the 10KHz dip - for the first measurement of each, I had the mic just a couple inches away from the horn mouth, so I don't think it has to do with a reflection, but I guess you never know for sure. Maybe something with the foam? I do intend to make a panel to connect between the 2 inside edges of the horn bodies when I have time. I can't really just get rid of that console area because of the shifter.

Thoughts on the mids?

I think he said the midbass are tuned to 50Hz so that seems about right. (It was 63Hz in my head when I did the test which is why I didn't go lower than 45Hz, but either way I wouldn't be running them that low in reality so whatever).

Sub response is hugely different based on how I aim the mic. At the listening position (orange line) it looks and sounds pretty good. And when crossed high they freaking slam.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Nice to see some graphs of the animal finally! Looks like you're continuing to dial it in. 

I most enjoyed the subs crossed at 80hz with a 12db filter- this was with them overlapping the 2206 a bit which were HPF'd at 63hz. I think because of the natural filter of the enclosure, a more shallow slope on the subs seemed to blend better and have more output.

That 10k dip on the horns is strange for sure. Not sure what's causing that. The center console thing can be easily removed, but the carpet beneath isn't trimmed perfectly around the shifter boot so cosmetically it wouldn't look awesome if you removed it, but there is one screw in the storage area that comes out and the whole thing lifts off. So you could pull it in 30 seconds and at least do an A/B to see if it changes the response on the horns before you permanently modify or build anything. Play with the xover points and slopes between the 2206 and the 2118 as well to see if you can minimize that lower midrange stage droop. I T/A'd the horns about as much as I could to get rid of it.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Ok, so here's the left horn. Yellow is a 1KHz / 24dB crossover, with 9 bands of EQ below 10KHz used to flatten it out. Blue is with a 5KHz / 6dB crossover, with 2 or 3 bands of EQ below 10KHz used to flatten it out.










Using less EQ is definitely nice... but is this safe? I don't know much about the durability of compression driver diaphragms. I just see 8dB more output at 600Hz on the one with the shallow slope and wonder if it's ok to be running that low. The drivers have a clear, steep natural roll off at 5-600Hz.

The 701 has one EQ section for the horn and the mid. So I can't just do a lot of EQ cutting below 900Hz or so without it doing the same to the midrange.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

strakele said:


> Ok, so here's the left horn. Yellow is a 1KHz / 24dB crossover, with 9 bands of EQ below 10KHz used to flatten it out. Blue is with a 5KHz / 6dB crossover, with 2 or 3 bands of EQ below 10KHz used to flatten it out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's the highest HP filter on your horn's amplifier? 

Kelvin


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Mmm... hadn't thought of that.

Looks like 500Hz / 12dB is as high as it goes. Not sure how helpful that would be. Better than nothing..


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Is that new graph with the center console removed? Where did the huge dip at 10k go?

You're saying you have a [email protected], -6db/oct on the blue? I never even thought of running them that high. I wouldn't worry about the extra output at 800hz. I've crossed those horns as low as 630hz with 24db slope and no issues. Diaphragms are $38 if you pop one, but I doubt you're feeding the horns enough power to have that 8db be a concern. If you get a smoother response with the higher xover point and shallow slope, try it for a bit and see how they do.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

The above graph just has 1/6 octave smoothing applied which makes the 10KHz dip show less. Console is still there.

And yeah, blue has a 5K/6dB crossover. Both lines have the same EQ above 8K, and the blue just has a big cut at 4K and a little at 5K. While the other line has some EQ adjustment on every band from 1.2K and up.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Could you maybe wrap the center console in carpet, or blanket or something and see if it absorbs the reflections? At least for testing? You could at least see IF it effects the 10k peak.

Jay


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

strakele said:


> Ok, so here's the left horn. Yellow is a 1KHz / 24dB crossover, with 9 bands of EQ below 10KHz used to flatten it out. Blue is with a 5KHz / 6dB crossover, with 2 or 3 bands of EQ below 10KHz used to flatten it out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I forget who told me, but swap the mids and the midbass rca's at the h701.

This keeps your horn eq from affecting the midrange drivers and vice versa. The midbass should be far enough down that any eq work you do will not mess with the midbass.

So front is horns and midbass and rear is the midrange.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

^^that's a great suggestion.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That was just a WAG guess looking at the graphs about the XO point. I ran those drivers on those horns at or around 800 hertz with a 24 dB slope, which is roughly what it looks like you have going on there now with the HPF that high.

If you are worried about the extra output, swap the RCAs like said and put a little bit of EQ cut on them down there. I used to cut the EQ out of band since the XO wasn't a brick wall. Might pull the closest band to that point down, like 630 (it's early, and I can't remember where the 1/3rd oct centers are off of the top of my head).

Here is a link for something else to try with regards to XO points...but you need to know distances between the horn and the midbasses:

"Quasi-optimal" crossover for high-efficiency loudspeaker system - diyAudio

And using the XO as EQ is fine...and it is doing the same thing in the end- reducing output. You are just using a different tool to go about it.

And if you are worrired about phase, remember the horns have a natural HPF, so the slopes may need to be mixed depending on off sets to get the phasing correct at the XO point. 

The shallow slope up high work with the horns so well because the horn and driver have a power curve in them- the FR usually looks like a mountain or a hill tapering off on the high side...and these kinds of horns are usually bad offenders between 1-4k (just depending on the drivers and such)- that's where you get that nasal "horn" sound because of the boost in that range. You put the filter up high and the filter knocks that range down, and when you get to the point where you want to cross the over at, you are already 3 or 4 octaves down, and you get that steeper acoustical slope in the end.

You can "brute" force it with a lower electrical slope or "finesse" it a little with a shallower electrical slope to get nearly the same acoustical slope in the end. Both ways have their own merits...and luckily we can save presets to a/b them back to back.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

What Mic and I (and most of the rest of the ID team) did was if we had a big center console right near the horns was to wrap a towel around it to soften up reflections. And put a towel on the top of the dash to help the the reflections between the dash and glass (that's why all horn cars had dash mats).

Later on, Mic made foam pads wrapped in grill cloth that he attached to the center console. I later on cut the bottom of my dash of my old Accord so I could connect the horns with a panel straight across and flattened out the whole area in front of the shifter. When I did the shifter, I covered the sides with the same carpet I used in the floorboards (helped with reflections, split the textures up, and made the top really easy to vinyl). That was the biggest single improvement that I made to the front stage of that car next to moving the seats back.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

That is a good suggestion as far as the wiring goes. Will take a little mind training to remember Rear = front midrange, but it's probably the best way to do it and get the roll off point/slope on both horns as close to matching as possible.

As far as that being necessary or me needing to worry about it - I don't know, hence why I asked. I don't really know what these kinds of drivers are capable of dealing with. I think the first thing I'll try is just cranking up the HPF on the amp and see if that does anything. If not I'll swap the RCAs.

Here's how the horns meet the dash:










I'm guessing this one should have a transition piece?










Is this one tight enough?


I do intend to make a panel to go between the horns.











I'll try a towel around the console.

And what about roundovers on the horns? Worth the trouble?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah the driver's side needs something between it and the dash.

Connecting the horns will be good.

As far as the round overs...I see the merit to the idea, but IMO those particular ones are too small in diameter and length to really be effective.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

The roundovers in that one pic aren't there anymore - that's just a picture that Mike took that I drew the red line on. They currently have no roundover on the bottom like other pictures show.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I removed the round overs after we talked about it a few months ago Jason, then sanded the glue and repainted the horns.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Trim panel done.

Before:




















After:


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Looks good man! Interested to see if the response changes. Did you make something to transition between the dash and horn on the driver's side?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

There still appears to be a gap between the edge of the horn mouth and the dash panel. you need a smooth transition panel. the whole idea is that the dash becomes an extension of the horn mouth, in effect making the dash one large horn. without that transition panel, it doesnt work as well and height suffers as well

a simple cardboard panel, ABS, wood...whatever covered in some thin trunk liner will suffice and work just fine. But NO gaps between horn mouth and underdash


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

What about the gap under the horn?


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

How's this?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

It's fun to watch someone else with passion work on my (former) truck.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Looks good.

It should image and stage higher all of that.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Left and right, 1/6 octave smoothing. Not too shabby..


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

for our own amusement bc I know Jason and I are much too lazy to do it...Can you take a measurement with foam and without.
Then measurements with filler panels and without. maybe with a dash pad and without...


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Excellent thread!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That little dip around 1.2k on the horns will fill in with the midranges playing.

Or you could go back and put a steeper slope on the horns down lower and use the EQ.

If your processor could do it, you could do a 6dB slope around 5k and another filter down lower for some added protection...or if you had parametric EQ, a cut around 6-700 for some protection.

But the horns are looking really good IMO.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Yeah with a different processor there would be a lot more options but at least for the foreseeable future I'm just gonna rock the 701.

The above graphs also have the 500Hz HPF from the amp. There was a noticeable difference turning it on, so I'm gonna keep it on.

Mic, maybe next weekend.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Well hot damn did I make some progress tonight! 

After retuning the horns last weekend my plan was to do the mids and hopefully the rest of the drivers this weekend. So I started on the midranges yesterday and got kinda frustrated and went on to midbass and sub. Went back out this evening to work on the midranges and did a bit more tweaking. It's hard to get them flat. Though with the exception of the 500-900Hz region, the left and right response is extremely similar. Peaks at 140, 300, and 1.2KHz, dips at 200, and 400. Got them 'close enough' and called it quits with the RTA and figured I'd check out how it all sounds. 

Turned on all channels and started listening. Made a couple minor t/a tweaks, then started playing with crossover slopes and phase of the midbass mostly, and a bit with the mids and subs. After finding what seemed best, I went through a bunch of my go-to songs and.. wow! Definitely got the snap and upper end impact back. Tightened up the low end quite a bit (with the subs crossed pretty darn high, surprisingly) and no loss of punch down low. Sweet! Stage is big and wide with pretty good height and depth. Gets loud and is less fatiguing.

Only issue I noticed at this point is a slight mismatch in levels which shouldn't be hard to fix. It's highly probable there exists a t/a setting better than what I have now since I did t/a a little differently this time, but it's good.

Anyway, I'm very happy with it at this point. And I know I say this in like every other post but this sub/enclosure combo still continues to impress me with the impact and output it produces with the subs hardly moving. I can't imagine what it'd be like with a few thousand watts 


I can post some more graphs of everything if anyone cares. Otherwise I'll probably just show the final curve when it's 'done.'

Further plans include trim panels for the bed, and maybe grills for the horns. And getting some of those foam rings to put around the 2118's to funnel their output through the grill in the door.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

As I have mentioned in several posts around the site, I'm currently a couple months in to USAF pilot training. It's a ton of work and cuts down a lot on the time I get to work on car audio, but today was a cool/special day and I figured I'd share.

Just after noon today I flew the T-6 solo for the first time. For those not familiar, the T-6A Texan II is the first trainer that all military pilot students fly. It's a high performance aerobatic 2-seat turboprop plane powered by a 1,100 HP turbine engine. We can pull up to 7 G's and fly up to 300 knots.











Here's some pics from today after my flight, and getting dunked in the solo tank.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Dude, that is awesome! What an achievement!!! That looks to be more than being 'dunked'........I think of the dunk tank that you throw baseballs at.......not seemingly being body slammed in a baby pool  I bet that was a thrill flying that aircraft solo!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Congrats, Gray!


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks guys! It was a good flight and I had fun - got 9 or 10 landings in. The air conditioning in my plane wasn’t working very well so it was really hot, and toward the end of the flight my traffic collision avoidance/advisory system stopped functioning for a bit, but I got it working again. Other than that, no issues. The tower rated a few of my landings excellent which is always nice.

And yeah the dunk tank was a pretty rough landing lol - that pool is pretty shallow.


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

Right on first solo! congratz!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Very cool. Thanks for sharing.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Very cool on all fronts!

What have you ended up with on the processor as far as points and slopes?

Checked out your FB page, pretty cool of you and Ally posing.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Congrats! When you said stuff "went out," is that something they do to simulate a situation or did it really go out? That would be kinda scary.

Do you have a preference as to what you get to fly in the end?

Jay


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Yeah it actually quit working. One of the instruments is a combination vertical speed indicator and traffic advisory system. It shows the location and altitude of everyone else in the pattern. It quit working a while into the flight. I ran a test on it and it failed the diagnostic. Changed modes, still no good. Turned it completely off and back on and then it worked. The "typical" electronics fix. This wasn't something we ever talked about/practiced/trained for. But it wasn't a big deal.


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

Congrats Grayson!

That was quite a splash you made there. Did they drop you from the plane?


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Haha nope, the two guys on the right threw me in.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Congratulations!


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

This truck is the most incredible thing I've ever heard on four wheels when it comes to a visceral experience! The only fair comparison is a live concert. It's just ridiculous. Thanks Grayson, Can't wait to hear it again!!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Nice to see it continue its legacy  I almost want to fly to OK and hear the adjustments you've made.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Have Grayson fly out there and pick you up


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Have Grayson fly out there and pick you up


That's a better idea.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Yep, finally made it down to OKC last weekend to hang out and do some work. Got a lot of good feedback on the truck - had probably 10 people listen. After doing some tweaks with Todd, I went back to the tune with 24db slopes on the horns since there were less phase issues. Played some SQ tracks and it really does quite well. Not a finals winner most likely, but it does a lot of things right.

I had a lot of fun giving demos and watching people's reactions. Martin's was the best lol. 

Other than that, Adam was kind enough to open his "shop" to me over the weekend and help build a trim panel for the back of the bed. Having the right tools is the best. All the pieces are cut, just waiting on paint. I'll get that done sometime this week and will post pictures.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

That's awesome man! What are your current settings for xover, slope and phase? Curious what an RTA had you adjust. Post some pics up of the trim panel when it's done.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Anybody have a particular brand of truck bedliner they like that can be purchased locally?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

for actual bedliner or as a texture coat? for texture, only use Duplicolor. Advance sells it

for actual bedliner, pretty much everyone sells Duplicolor or Herculiner


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Grayson, the portion of the bed and enclosure that are textured were Duplicolor. O'Reilly has it here, as does AutoZone. I've had pretty good luck with it over the years. If you need something more abrasive that's an actual heavy duty liner, you may want to just get it sprayed. If you're just looking to do the trim panel, the Duplicolor should work well.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Ok thanks. I'm gonna do another coat on everything that you can see and on the trim panel so everything matches.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Duplicolor spray a better texture. everything else as an aerosol clumps and is a thicker texture. kinda gloopy.

you can buy it in larger containers and roll it on too if doing large areas. Aerosol wont go very far if doin a bed


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Better late than never...

A few weekends ago Adam helped cut the pieces for the bed trim panel. Finally got the last part done today so time for a couple pics.


Main board across the back. Thin ply so it doesn't take up any more of the bed than is already taken by the enclosure.










2 removable side pieces to allow access to the sides of the enclosures where the terminals are:










2 layer Chevy logo in the center. Black bedliner coating on everything, and white for the border piece. Beveled edges on both:



















Nice tight fit at the edges:











Before:










After:










Looks nice


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Great job Grayson!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Looks good. Just enough storage for a weekend trip.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

As I had mentioned before, there is around a 3 inch gap between the midrange cone and the grill on the door panel with nothing in between, so the speaker is playing into the door panel as well as into the cabin which can't be good. This weekend I set out to correct this, along with sealing up some holes around the baffles. After looking at them more, I think I want to remake the baffles, but that will come later.

I've seen many posts talking about the benefits of sealing around the speaker and sealing the speaker to the door panel, so I figured I'd take some before and after measurements to see. So here goes.

I attached 2.25" thick weatherstripping foam around the speaker grill on the door panel to channel the sound directly through to the cabin.











The following graphs were taken with no EQ and crossovers set at 100Hz / 12dB and 2500Hz / 12dB. For each graph, orange is before foam, and blue is after.

Left mid, at the listening position, 1/6 octave smoothing:










Left mid, directly on axis, 4 inches from the grill, 1/24 octave, no smoothing:










Right mid, at the listening position, 1/6 octave smoothing:










Right mid, directly on axis, 4 inches from the grill, 1/24 octave, no smoothing:











Not a huge difference, but it is measurable. A dB or two extra on the low end, and a smoothing of the peak around 1150Hz. Seemed to do a little more for the left side than the right. 

Anyway, just thought I'd share. Something pretty cheap and easy that certainly can't hurt. It's not suddenly going to give you nice midbass where it didn't exist before, but it can be one of those extra few % kinda things to help out. And it looks like it could be more noticeable for those running a 2-way front judging by how it helped smooth the upper midrange.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

NICE information!


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks for putting the effort into that.


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## Gadget01 (Oct 20, 2008)

strakele said:


> Adam was kind enough to open his "shop" to me over the weekend and help build a trim panel for the back of the bed. Having the right tools is the best.


It's fun to take on new projects and learn new tricks/techniques. Your method of using the chamfer router bit against a straight-edge was very effective- the part looked nearly CNC-cut when finished. I'm pretty pleased with our results that weekend.

My garage "shop" was in pretty sorry shape. Major improvements are underway to make what little space that is much more functional. I will have a Todd-sized shop someday, dammit.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Yeah I'm definitely happy with the fit and precision of everything. Thanks again.

I'll probably be back to do the baffles at some point. But I think instruments is gonna be kicking my ass for the next couple weeks.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Haven't done much car audio stuff recently - lots of flying, bad weather, and holidays. Just a handful of flights left in T-6's before moving on to jets!

The truck is still rockin' and tons of fun to listen to. I'm still constantly impressed with the low end. It's amazing. I still need to get out there and work on the midbass to midrange transition though.

Anyway, here's a quick update. The lights on the truck weren't in super good shape so I've started replacing them with smoked versions.

First, some bulbs in the third brake light on the cab apparently get hot enough to actually melt the plastic lens. You can see the cracked/melted areas between the screw holes:










Got some matching tail lights:











On the truck:






























I was planning on doing the same up front until I saw a pic of a similar truck with all clear headlights and turn signals, and now I'm leaning towards doing that. What are your thoughts? Here are some photoshopped pics:

Stock:










Smoked:










Clear:










Which do you think looks best?


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

I like the clear better. The smoked tails are a nice touch.


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

I like the blacked out. The black all the way across the head lights and grill has a better flow to me. My .02


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Looks great man! I was going to do clears up front, so I would lean that way too. I really like the smoked rears though.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Clear front, smoked rears please.


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## Dodslobber (Jan 3, 2013)

I prefer the blacked out front.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I'd go clear front. I think it looks cleaner, and it draws less unwanted attention from law enforcement. 

Also consider swapping the 3rd brake light bulbs for LED versions. Probably less heat than the standard incandescent.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

If I go the smoked route it will be replacing the whole assembly with a DOT approved smoked aftermarket housing with no further darkening. No covers or sprays or films that could be an issue with certain cops or whatever. But I guess even if it's perfectly legal they can still stop and check. 

And yeah I do intend to do LEDs but for now the red ones that came with the lens didn't seem too bad when I put them in. Also I didn't see any red LED ones that would fit at O'Reilly's.


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## YukonXL04 (Mar 6, 2014)

I would do black housings as opposed to tinted. The loss of light output from smoked lights is terrible. 

If you do clear, I say color match or plastidip the black part of the grill.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I definitely thought about black housings, but with the bright chrome reflector around the bulb, it kinda kills the consistent look across the front.











I don't think projectors and halos and LEDs and all the other popular aftermarket lighting stuff looks right on a truck of this age.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Blacked out front all the way!


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

Have you photoshopped the pic to have the grill in white with the clear lens? That might look cool and eliminate your being legal concerns.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Good question!


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

being on military installations, and surrounded by MP's, security, etc... I would go clear. As a young one, I got pulled over a handful of times on base without any (obvious) reasons.


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## YukonXL04 (Mar 6, 2014)

strakele said:


> I definitely thought about black housings, but with the bright chrome reflector around the bulb, it kinda kills the consistent look across the front.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea I made my own from factory housings.









Quad HID projectors. 4 high and 4 low beams! AMAZING light output. I like projectors but didnt want halos or leds. 
Just an option.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

bigbubba said:


> Have you photoshopped the pic to have the grill in white with the clear lens? That might look cool and eliminate your being legal concerns.


That's a bit harder to photoshop. I'm working on it but it's tough to make it look realistic. (I'm no expert so anyone can feel free to try if you're bored and good with photo editing). I agree that color matching might look cool, but that's also a whole extra level of work over what I was planning on. 



Lorin said:


> being on military installations, and surrounded by MP's, security, etc... I would go clear.  As a young one, I got pulled over a handful of times on base without any (obvious) reasons.


They're not too bad around here from what I can tell. My formation partner has a fully blacked out challenger and doesn't have issues. But I guess that doesn't mean it'd be the same at future bases...


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## bigbubba (Mar 23, 2011)

I was bored. It's not great but you get the point.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

YukonXL04 said:


> Yea I made my own from factory housings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


NICE!


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## YukonXL04 (Mar 6, 2014)

BP1Fanatic said:


> NICE!


Thanks!

Here is a link for a white s10 with a white grill and clear lights. 
http://image.truckinweb.com/f/webon...s_truck_show+white_chevy_s10_laying_frame.jpg


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

That does look good!


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

Well, I was finally able to buy this insane piece of car audio history!! Thank you Grayson for a seamless transaction. Been trying to buy it since the first time I heard it last year. Time to ROCK!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Damn, went to a new home...glad people are getting to enjoy it.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

That didn't take long! lol

Jay


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

It sold again?! Lol.


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## Gadget01 (Oct 20, 2008)

BMWTUBED said:


> Well, I was finally able to buy this insane piece of car audio history!! Thank you Grayson for a seamless transaction. Been trying to buy it since the first time I heard it last year. Time to ROCK!


It's a fun machine for sure. Enjoy!


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

thanks Adam. You know I will!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

BMWTUBED said:


> thanks Adam. You know I will!


If you ever have any questions about how anything is wired or set up, or if you need anything warrantied (lots of AutoZone parts have lifetime), let me know.


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

mikey7182 said:


> If you ever have any questions about how anything is wired or set up, or if you need anything warrantied (lots of AutoZone parts have lifetime), let me know.


will do, I really appreciate that Mike.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

New pics???


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Nice

Although it didn't move closer to New York =(


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

edzyy said:


> Nice
> 
> Although it didn't move closer to New York =(


Maybe I should offer to buy "first right of refusal" from a fellow Bimmerhead 

Or try the same on a certain VW currently in build mode :blush:


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## Gadget01 (Oct 20, 2008)

BP1Fanatic said:


> New pics???


You mean pics of Martin enjoying it? This is probably not far off:


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

Gadget01 said:


> You mean pics of Martin enjoying it? This is probably not far off:


Haha, I probably didn't look far from that today. I scared the ship out of a few coworkers after a round golf today. Fun stuff.


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

danno14 said:


> Maybe I should offer to buy "first right of refusal" from a fellow Bimmerhead
> 
> Or try the same on a certain VW currently in build mode :blush:


Yes if the vw is successful I'm certain it will be a game changer. I'll remember to give you first right of refusal too.


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## jdsoldger (Feb 14, 2012)

BMWTUBED said:


> Haha, I probably didn't look far from that today. I scared the ship out of a few coworkers after a round golf today. Fun stuff.


That is how my friend looked this morning when we did a quick tune on his freshly installed system. It's his first SQ system and we spent about 2 hours (between 4am and 6am, after working on it for 15 hours strait) listening. I need to re-tune it sometime, but it defenetly was pleasant to listen too.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

danno14 said:


> Maybe I should offer to buy "first right of refusal" from a fellow Bimmerhead
> 
> Or try the same on a certain VW currently in build mode :blush:


I'll keep that in mind!  Had to trim the **** out of my horns today but I think they will fit in with the kicks now


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Congrats on the purchase Martin! Knowing Grayson won't be here in Oklahoma forever had me worried how many more times I'd get to hear it before he gets reassigned. I can relax now.


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

fish said:


> Congrats on the purchase Martin! Knowing Grayson won't be here in Oklahoma forever had me worried how many more times I'd get to hear it before he gets reassigned. I can relax now.


Thanks Kevin! You're welcome to have a listen any time. Hopefully I'll be able to make more Friday nights this spring and summer!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Well, that was unexpected. Good to see the truck is going to another good home though.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

rton20s said:


> Well, that was unexpected. Good to see the truck is going to another good home though.


Getting passed around like a promiscuous granny!  Ahh, mileage.


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

mikey7182 said:


> Getting passed around like a promiscuous granny!  Ahh, mileage.


We've been trying to think of a name for her... Granny is it! None of my "non-audio" friends "get it". I explain that I bought an old-school stereo system that just happened to come with a truck. They understand that I think. 

Do you guys have links to your builds? Would love to have a look.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

BMWTUBED said:


> We've been trying to think of a name for her... Granny is it! None of my "non-audio" friends "get it". I explain that I bought an old-school stereo system that just happened to come with a truck. They understand that I think.
> 
> Do you guys have links to your builds? Would love to have a look.


Which guys and what builds? We're in one of mine


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

mikey7182 said:


> Which guys and what builds? We're in one of mine


I know you built this truck and I have seen the red ford you did as well. I have had the pleasure of listening to Fish's and Gadget01's cars in the flesh. I would be interested in seeing some of these other guys HE builds. rton20s, danno14, edzyy, thehadedguy, etc.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> Getting passed around like a promiscuous granny!  Ahh, mileage.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

She's trying to do The Shocker, but arthritis is an uphill battle.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

mikey7182 said:


> She's trying to do The Shocker, but arthritis is an uphill battle.


when you hit 80, that is the shocker...


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

cajunner said:


> when you hit 80, that is the shocker...


One in the urethra...


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## Gadget01 (Oct 20, 2008)




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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I definitely hadn't intended on selling it nearly this soon. I was surprised when Martin initially wanted to buy it the first weekend I had it down in OKC lol. Then we had talked about a year or two later which sounded fine to me, but he came back a week or two ago with renewed interest so I let him have it. I know he'll really enjoy it often based on that first demo last summer 

It kinda made sense for me since I'll have very little time for car stuff the next year or so. All my focus will be on learning to fly this.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

You play video games. You'll be fine.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Playing lots of flight sims as a kid has legitimately helped.

Now back to discussion of the bad ass truck


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

strakele said:


> It kinda made sense for me since I'll have very little time for car stuff the next year or so. All my focus will be on learning to fly this.


My mother designs schematics for the ejection seats to the F22 Raptor.


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

strakele said:


> I definitely hadn't intended on selling it nearly this soon. I was surprised when Martin initially wanted to buy it the first weekend I had it down in OKC lol. Then we had talked about a year or two later which sounded fine to me, but he came back a week or two ago with renewed interest so I let him have it. I know he'll really enjoy it often based on that first demo last summer
> 
> It kinda made sense for me since I'll have very little time for car stuff the next year or so. All my focus will be on learning to fly this.


I bet that's one hell of a rush!!


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

Mike,
Do you recall where you got the carpet that covers the amp rack and blow through trim?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I got it from a local place called Mesa Sales. If you're in need of more, I'd be happy to buy a running yard or two and ship it to you.


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

Thanks Mike. I'll let you know when I'm ready to do that!


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