# Zapco will never get my business again if they don't stop this child crap!



## Dillyyo (Feb 15, 2008)

Had my system installed today and come to find out, the software on disk is not the same as the firmware on the dsp6. Ok, no problem as this is addressed in an updating PDF. Well, do as they say and guess what.....can't get the F'ing update to start. There is no start button to depress, just the words start update! I assume that this is because I am in restricted user mode, as I unloaded and loaded it several times. What the hell is this ****Z?! I pay how much for a product to only be strapped?

When I first got the DSP6 I noticed there was no software. Was told by Rob that I had to get it from the dealer as they are the only one's who have it! WTF? So I go and the dealer is nice enough to give me the disk as he had another copy. Had a problem with it today and was told by someone that they don't offer software support for non-dealers. Is this really what this hobby has come too? I remember when you had flexibility and freedom, but now I'm in my mid thirties and I should have to run to a dealer to tweek my system because they don't offer customer support with software F'ing joke.

Between symbilink cables and their near non existence, this crap and the inability to tune my system before a road trip on sunday, I am pissed and needed to vent. I don't care what anyone says, the days of analog were so much better, if this is what we have come too!


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

k.i.s.s. 

fancy chit = fancy problems.


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## Nitr0racing21 (May 25, 2008)

Keep us updated


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## atsaubrey (Jan 10, 2007)

Software comes with the unit. Pretty simple to, got to administrator mode to make changes. PM me if you need the password. As for customer service, they have been the best and that was before my cureent relationship with the company as well. Is it wrong to only support AUTHORIZED dealers and items purchased from them? To be honest it has become so darn difficult for dealers to survive with the internet and i'm glad they have taken the hard stance on it.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Did you by the Zapco authorized just out of curiosity?


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## Dillyyo (Feb 15, 2008)

Genxx said:


> Did you by the Zapco authorized just out of curiosity?


Of course! From the dealers rep, Don (6spdcoupe). He went through the troubles of getting me one from a local shops shelf since I needed it asap. no software included and no F'ing password!


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

Dillyyo said:


> Of course! From the dealers rep, Don (6spdcoupe). He went through the troubles of getting me one from a local shops shelf since I needed it asap. no software included and no F'ing password!



No software because they dont come with it. No password because that was what was put into place to help our Dealers. Yes the password is out there and yes you could have gotten it and most likely the software too. We have to support our dealers because they are the ones that are keeping us in business. That is why we fight internet sales as much as possible and that is why we dont give the software out with every unit. We rely on the dealers to support us so we give them as much support as we can. 

Im sorry you ran into these issues. But coming on a public forum and calling a manufacture childish.......that is just sad. Is this what our industry has come to?


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

How is not including the software supporting the dealers though?

If I were going to buy a DC series it'd be because I wanted to tune everything myself.

Pirating software has been around for longer than selling things on eBay has, it ain't hard. I'm not convinced as to why I shouldn't buy one off eBay and get a pirated copy of the software, if screwing the GOOD PAYING customer is your attitude? **** the dealers, who REALLY pays your bills?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> No software because they dont come with it. No password because that was what was put into place to help our Dealers. Yes the password is out there and yes you could have gotten it and most likely the software too. We have to support our dealers because they are the ones that are keeping us in business. That is why we fight internet sales as much as possible and that is why we dont give the software out with every unit. We rely on the dealers to support us so we give them as much support as we can.
> 
> Im sorry you ran into these issues. But coming on a public forum and calling a manufacture childish.......that is just sad. Is this what our industry has come to?


i couldn't agree more. sure there are local shops that don't deserve anyones business but the ones that truly care about their customers are the ones that stand out to me. unless i'm trading with someone or buying used, all of my bnib gear comes from a local shop. hessdawg, madisound, and pe are the exceptions.


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

its not included with every DC we sell. The dealer gets a copy and he can request a copy for his customer if he feels he has the knowledge to adjust the amplifier. I had people calling trying to adjust these amps that did not even know what a crossover is.....should that guy have this much adjustment in the palm of his hand. When I tell a guy you have to Right click and he says "How do I do that" Is that a guy you think should be using this stuff. 

No we are not trying to screw anyone. We are trying to save people from themselves. If you wanted to buy DC and you have the knowledge of what to do with it the dealer will probably not have a problem with giving you the software, just like the OP did. He got the software......the dealer forgot to give him the password. I am assuming he called us yesterday....well if I was in the office I would have talked to him and since i knew the situation I would have given him the password. 

Like I said I know you can get a copy of the software. We are not that stupid to think that its not out there. We do what we can to support the dealer......and for us the best solution was not to give it to everyone.

You said "**** the dealers".....really.......where do you think this industry would be without them?


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

I actually don't really know. I am a young punk. That's why I buy things for cheap on eBay and like to program them myself. And that's why I wanted you to explain, thank you.

Seems to me if your dealers are selling DC-series amps to folks who don't know what a crossover is, though......................


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

capnxtreme said:


> I actually don't really know. I am a young punk. That's why I buy things for cheap on eBay and like to program them myself. And that's why I wanted you to explain, thank you.
> 
> Seems to me if your dealers are selling DC-series amps to folks who don't know what a crossover is, though......................



Sorry maybe I was not clear on that....it was not dealers that did not know what a x-over is it was a consumer that was sold a DC amp over the counter and simply given the software. And it was also a consumer that did not know how to Right click his mouse. The list goes on and on but those are just two of the examples. 

I have all the respect in the world for someone wanting to adjust there system and install it themselves. I also understand about wanting to buy things for a cheap price....I am a consumer my self.....but on the same hand I understand the need for a company to make money, a manufacture to make money so they can stay around and give me the support I need after I buy from them.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

OK, thank you for explaining. As a potential customer I just want to hear that you care about us as well as the dealers. And I will keep saving, I guess.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> No software because they dont come with it. No password because that was what was put into place to help our Dealers. Yes the password is out there and yes you could have gotten it and most likely the software too. We have to support our dealers because they are the ones that are keeping us in business. That is why we fight internet sales as much as possible and that is why we dont give the software out with every unit. We rely on the dealers to support us so we give them as much support as we can.


That is an idiotic policy. Supporting dealers by fighting non-authorized sales, that's fair enough, though of course gear that's of high quality and properly priced for the market doesn't need any such silly gimmicks.

The software, I assume, is required to adjust crossover settings, levels, and whatever else the box in question does. Do you really think it serves your customers to force them to rely on one some dealer to dial in their systems? Most car-fi dealers are abject tin-ears, sad to say. Certainly, I've never seen a car-fi dealer with the caliber of equipment of even amateur hobbyists. And they don't understand the products they sell. Most of 'em wouldn't even know what a Faraday ring was, or why a cone driver lacking one is unacceptable and frankly shameful in 2008. Not to mention their (as a collective, to be sure must be exceptions though none that I've personally met) utterly pathetic ignorance of modern measurement technology. I've been in a bunch of install bays, and never seen one with so much as a Mac equiped with the FuzzMeasure Pro MLS measurement software, a good mic preamp, and a calibrated measurement mic, for instance. Let alone an actual professional measurement rig! Hell, one rarely even sees an antequated old AudioControl RTA in most install bins!

There's a reason that most people on this forum disdain the car-fi industry and use its products, grudgingly, only when there is not a practical alternative to be found from a more reasonable source. Amps, for instance.


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

One click of a button by someone that doesn't know what they are doing and the crossover for their precious $500 tweeters is OFF and they are smoked. That is what the restrictions are protecting. 

Not everyone with the $$ for a nice system knows how to tune it. Once a dealer is convinced the end user is safe from themselves then the doors are opened.

Seems fair and logical enough to me.

Kirk


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## iyamwutiam (Nov 20, 2006)

I disagree - I have met some incredibly knowledgable dealers, installers- for sure.


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## Dougie085 (May 2, 2006)

There are some very respectful dealers as far as what they know goes. But majority of them are the "that system bumps" type where they get customers that want the loudest possible subs you can get. I had a friend in highschool that had 2 audiobahn subs and 2 tweeters up front and that was it. He though he had an amazing system. This is the type of dealer I know mostly although I have met some great ones as well. I used to work for a really nice dealer actually. You also have to figure the installer may not know as much as the guy selling the stuff.


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

When you say a lot of dealer dont have the knowledge to make these adjustments......what are you making that statement based off of? The Dealers in your area? There are far more dealers that have the knowledge to adjust this product. The ones that dont really dont sell the DC line. 

No we are not saying have the dealers adjust your car. We are saying you have to get the software from the dealer. If he feels you have the knowledge needed he will give you the software.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

I could set the HP crossover on my 9887 to flat and blow a set of $500 tweeters. Its not like the DC Refs are the only products which, in the hands of morons, could damage other components.


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## Dougie085 (May 2, 2006)

But if you do it with your Alpine head unit then Zapco is not going to be hearing about it  Alpine will.


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## khail19 (Oct 27, 2006)

ClinesSelect said:


> I could set the HP crossover on my 9887 to flat and blow a set of $500 tweeters. Its not like the DC Refs are the only products which, in the hands of morons, could damage other components.


Very true, you could do that with just about any amp or HU.

How does a dealer determine if a user is "ready" to use the software that he paid for? Is there a quiz or something?


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

ClinesSelect said:


> I could set the HP crossover on my 9887 to flat and blow a set of $500 tweeters. Its not like the DC Refs are the only products which, in the hands of morons, could damage other components.


Could not agree more with this statement.....but if we can do something to help that "moron" not blow up his gear we are going to because you know whos fault it is going to be when it does blow up......its going to be the dealers, or its going to be the amps.....its never the "moron"


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

khail19 said:


> Very true, you could do that with just about any amp or HU.
> 
> How does a dealer determine if a user is "ready" to use the software that he paid for? Is there a quiz or something?


No there is no quiz. You can tell pretty quick if the person that is going to adjust has enough knowledge to get through it with out breaking things.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

Dougie085 said:


> But if you do it with your Alpine head unit then Zapco is not going to be hearing about it  Alpine will.


Not really my point. 



I have five DC Ref amps, none of which were bought at the only dealer in Phoenix. I wouldn't spend a penny with them after my ordeal with SymbiLink cables. I would also certainly not put myself in the position of having to basically take a test to assure them that I was qualified to own a DC Ref amp...especially since the salesman I spoke with was not even born when I was first working at a local shop.


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## Dillyyo (Feb 15, 2008)

Let me first start off by apologizing. Not for my stance on the issue, but for venting at 5:30 am after hours of trying to get my system setup and rather irritated. Robert has been nothing but helpful whenever I spoke to him and in the past few days I have annoyed him enough.

As far as my stance with the policy, as a multiple business owner, I understand the premise of the practice, but just disagree. As a dealer, I wouldn't go telling some 20 yr old he can't buy the farrari because he probably isn't skilled enough to handle it at limits. Thats not my place and kind of sounds like how a goverment would intercede in peoples lives....for their own safety. If someone F's up their 1000 dollar amp or whatever else, then it's on them. Just like if I open a Zapco amp and screw around inside and mess it up....my fault.

The effects of the policy might solve the issue with some bone heads from screwing up their systems, but it undermines the people who use to use and do use the Zapco line of products. Back in the day this was primarily die hard car audio heads and competitors, but I guess it's geared more towards the general car audio crowd now. 

Even though I understand this is a business, the system should just be a little more streamlined for the experienced user. As some have stated before, finding a dealer/shop where the people are technically savy has been difficult for years. Thats why I think their are many participants in the DIY field of car audio.


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## gcsuper (Feb 20, 2008)

"us" old skool people will turn into our parent someday, with stories that go in circles and go nowhere about being able to tune our systems with a small screwdriver, making our own RCA cables, and adjusting our Xovers with a turn of a dial. Zapco I love you to death, you have been with me since the early 80's, and i will continue to support you, but for the simple reason of the newer stuffs complexity, amps and x'overs, i now hoard the old studio's and Z series in my closet, they are easier for me to tweak.


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

Dillyyo said:


> Let me first start off by apologizing. Not for my stance on the issue, but for venting at 5:30 am after hours of trying to get my system setup and rather irritated. Robert has been nothing but helpful whenever I spoke to him and in the past few days I have annoyed him enough.
> 
> As far as my stance with the policy, as a multiple business owner, I understand the premise of the practice, but just disagree. As a dealer, I wouldn't go telling some 20 yr old he can't buy the farrari because he probably isn't skilled enough to handle it at limits. Thats not my place and kind of sounds like how a goverment would intercede in peoples lives....for their own safety. If someone F's up their 1000 dollar amp or whatever else, then it's on them. Just like if I open a Zapco amp and screw around inside and mess it up....my fault.
> 
> ...


I dont know if you tried to call on Friday but I was out of the office and if you were having any problems they would have been resolved very quickly. I was on a plane to Texas. If that was the case I am sorry for the frustration. 

Now I have said this on this forum before. First and for most we support our dealers. Next would be you guys that have the passion much like many of the good dealers in this industry. This is a struggling industry guys, its a industry that we all love......if we dont start working together its going to be a vanishing industry. 

We have worked with many DIY guys......Hell half of Team Zapco are DIY guys. I just think we need to start working towards a common goal or we are all going to be missing out on a passion that we all share. 

End Rant....sorry about that kind of got off topic there a bit


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

gcsuper said:


> "us" old skool people will turn into our parent someday, with stories that go in circles and go nowhere about being able to tune our systems with a small screwdriver, making our own RCA cables, and adjusting our Xovers with a turn of a dial. Zapco I love you to death, you have been with me since the early 80's, and i will continue to support you, but for the simple reason of the newer stuffs complexity, amps and x'overs, i now hoard the old studio's and Z series in my closet, they are easier for me to tweak.



And you will have our support......hell I am hoarding some old Z series stuff my self.


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## Dillyyo (Feb 15, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I dont know if you tried to call on Friday but I was out of the office and if you were having any problems they would have been resolved very quickly. I was on a plane to Texas. If that was the case I am sorry for the frustration.
> 
> Now I have said this on this forum before. First and for most we support our dealers. Next would be you guys that have the passion much like many of the good dealers in this industry. This is a struggling industry guys, its a industry that we all love......if we dont start working together its going to be a vanishing industry.
> 
> ...


Actually I did try to call Friday and whoever I talked to seemed rather rude and is what started this itch. Compunded with the fact that I paid 40+ dollars to have a dealer in Cali ship overnight, a Symbilink Y adapter, only for it to get stolen in transit, Murphy's Law had kicked in! Sorry about the rant.


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## Dougie085 (May 2, 2006)

ClinesSelect said:


> Not really my point.


Not your point but thats where Zapco is looking at it from. The end user always blames the person thats easiest to blame. In this case it would be Zapco in case of the DC series or Alpine with the head units. Thats just how it works people don't like to admit fault and they like to try and get something free when they screwed up.


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

Dillyyo said:


> Actually I did try to call Friday and whoever I talked to seemed rather rude and is what started this itch. Compunded with the fact that I paid 40+ dollars to have a dealer in Cali ship overnight, a Symbilink Y adapter, only for it to get stolen in transit, Murphy's Law had kicked in! Sorry about the rant.


I am going to be back in the office on tuesday. I will find out who you talked to and take care of this. 

You dont have to apologize for the rant. Trust me I know how it goes when things dont go right and then just keeps not going right.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

Dougie085 said:


> Not your point but thats where Zapco is looking at it from. The end user always blames the person thats easiest to blame. In this case it would be Zapco in case of the DC series or Alpine with the head units. Thats just how it works people don't like to admit fault and they like to try and get something free when they screwed up.


I certainly understand their motives. To their credit, they appear to be the only manufacturer who has taken it upon themselves to protect the masses from their own stupidity. 



I bought some Zapco Ref amps which I am using now. I'm starting to wonder if it will be worth it to replace them with the DC Ref amps I have.


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## Dougie085 (May 2, 2006)

I'll probably go Zapco my self  Ever since I first used them I have loved them. I would use the DC but I want to use the H701 therefor kind of silly to get the DC. But they are definitely top notch amps.


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

ClinesSelect said:


> I certainly understand their motives. To their credit, they appear to be the only manufacturer who has taken it upon themselves to protect the masses from their own stupidity.
> 
> 
> 
> I bought some Zapco Ref amps which I am using now. I'm starting to wonder if it will be worth it to replace them with the DC Ref amps I have.


Shoot me an e-mail. I would like to know what has happened with the dealer you were working with. Like I said we support those who support us. If there is a problem with one of our dealers I need to know.


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

Robert, I am having a problem with some Zapco dc reference too... I don't have enough money to buy them... can you take care of that for me?


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

fredridge said:


> Robert, I am having a problem with some Zapco dc reference too... I don't have enough money to buy them... can you take care of that for me?



LOL!! 

Ah I needed a laugh after this. Thank you. 

Where you at in Orange County. I may be able to find ya a dealer that will help you out.


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## gcsuper (Feb 20, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> And you will have our support......hell I am hoarding some old Z series stuff my self.


Hey, I still owe some rounds of golf when you make it down to Indio for repairing my Studio 500 for me a few months ago. don't forget.


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

gcsuper said:


> Hey, I still owe some rounds of golf when you make it down to Indio for repairing my Studio 500 for me a few months ago. don't forget.



LOL!! I will be calling ya. 

How is your Studio 500 doing?


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

I am in Yorba Linda - sweet, just let me know the name of the dealer and I will go pick them up right now......now where is my crowbar



[email protected] said:


> LOL!!
> 
> Ah I needed a laugh after this. Thank you.
> 
> Where you at in Orange County. I may be able to find ya a dealer that will help you out.


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## gcsuper (Feb 20, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> LOL!! I will be calling ya.
> 
> How is your Studio 500 doing?


it's sound is sweeter then the 1st nectar of a spring flower. it's doing very well, thanks. Let me know if you ever make it up San Fran, I can get you and a few buddies on at the Presidio GC, thats one of ours too.


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## hemi4me? (Apr 30, 2008)

I will say not all Zapco dealers are well versed with the DC line. Thank goodness I talked to Robert Thursday to help me when I was actually at the dealer LOL.

Thank you Robert I don't know what I would have done without you!


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

hemi4me? said:


> I will say not all Zapco dealers are well versed with the DC line. Thank goodness I talked to Robert Thursday to help me when I was actually at the dealer LOL.
> 
> Thank you Robert I don't know what I would have done without you!



Very true, not all dealers know the DC line. The closest dealer to me stocks iForce and thats it. Everything else is special order. But that dealer knows I will help out all I can as part of Team Z. He has my cell # and I do what I can. If I do not know the answer then I find someone who does. I have conversed with a handfull of folks on here. Happy to help when/where I can.

K


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## hemi4me? (Apr 30, 2008)

I have been yapping with another Team Zapco member customtronic. Man he is a nice cool guy! 

I like that he has a Magnum!


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> One click of a button by someone that doesn't know what they are doing and the crossover for their precious $500 tweeters is OFF and they are smoked. That is what the restrictions are protecting.


You must be a dealer, because otherwise it would be patently obvious to you what utter ******** that is.

If someone doesn't know how to use a piece of equipment and smokes a tweeter because of it, that's the person's own damn fault, and everyone knows it. Not only that, but also your attempt at an argument further falls apart because said customer isn't going to be smart enough to trace the problem back to the box anyway. S/he is going to ***** to the tweeter manufacturer. (Or, this being car-fi, tweeter marketer.)

And since we've established to a reasonable probability that you're a dealer, would you mind telling us what your measurement setup consists of, and how many people in your bay(s) are competent to use it?



AcuraTLSQ said:


> Not everyone with the $$ for a nice system knows how to tune it. Once a dealer is convinced the end user is safe from themselves then the doors are opened.


Oh come off it! What rational dealer is going to give away potential hours of well-paid and pretty easy work and voluntarily cede power to its customers without a fight?



[email protected] said:


> When you say a lot of dealer dont have the knowledge to make these adjustments......what are you making that statement based off of? The Dealers in your area? There are far more dealers that have the knowledge to adjust this product. The ones that dont really dont sell the DC line.


I note that you didn't bother to counter the substance of my argument, namely by ignoring the part about car-fi dealers investing the paltry sum required to buy proper measurement gear, and learn how to use it.

FWIW, I'm talking about dealers in my area who sell (or have sold) lines such as Brax, McIntosh, Dynaudio, Image Dynamics etc. I don't know about Zapco specifically, because frankly your product line doesn't interest me very much. Tell me who the Atlanta-area Zapco dealers are and I can tell you yes or no. By which I mean, have I been there and been underwhelmed, or have I not been there. 



[email protected] said:


> No we are not saying have the dealers adjust your car. We are saying you have to get the software from the dealer. If he feels you have the knowledge needed he will give you the software.


I'm sorry, but that's tantamount to saying that the salesdroid at Men's Wearhouse should have the power to determine if a customer who walks in wearing an Anderson & Sheppard bespoke suit can select his own damn socks, or if he needs to just take the socks he's handed and be happy with them. 

As I wrote in my first line in this thread, an idiotic policy.



[email protected] said:


> No there is no quiz. You can tell pretty quick if the person that is going to adjust has enough knowledge to get through it with out breaking things.


Maybe there should be a quiz: if the person uses the magic words "may I have the software," then s/he should "pass." But of course, putting someone who just spent whatever the hell your little box costs in the position of being a beggar just to get to use it is fundamentally degrading, and I frankly hope that kind of idiocy costs you lots of customers.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Dillyyo said:


> Had my system installed today and come to find out, the software on disk is not the same as the firmware on the dsp6. Ok, no problem as this is addressed in an updating PDF. Well, do as they say and guess what.....can't get the F'ing update to start. There is no start button to depress, just the words start update! I assume that this is because I am in restricted user mode, as I unloaded and loaded it several times. What the hell is this ****Z?! I pay how much for a product to only be strapped?
> 
> When I first got the DSP6 I noticed there was no software. Was told by Rob that I had to get it from the dealer as they are the only one's who have it! WTF? So I go and the dealer is nice enough to give me the disk as he had another copy. Had a problem with it today and was told by someone that they don't offer software support for non-dealers. Is this really what this hobby has come too? I remember when you had flexibility and freedom, but now I'm in my mid thirties and I should have to run to a dealer to tweek my system because they don't offer customer support with software F'ing joke.
> 
> Between symbilink cables and their near non existence, this crap and the inability to tune my system before a road trip on sunday, I am pissed and needed to vent. I don't care what anyone says, the days of analog were so much better, if this is what we have come too!


Please understand Zapco's stance on this one. They can't differentiate between you or any other yahoo hommie who gets their hands on Zapco product. They have to assume the worse and render everyone a newb until proven otherwise. Just think how many calls they must get a day from absolute idiots.

If you have questions or concerns just give them a call. Robert offers stellar customer support. That, and as Kirk mentioned elsewhere in this thread, members of team Zapco are always lurking around to help outside of normal business hours.

It is unfortunate that you can't obtain instant gratification sometimes with DC series products. I had similar problems. But, once you have some infrastructure laid down, you can't beat the performance and support.

Ge0


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## khail19 (Oct 27, 2006)

Ge0 said:


> Please understand Zapco's stance on this one. They can't differentiate between you or any other yahoo hommie who gets their hands on Zapco product. They have to assume the worse and render everyone a newb until proven otherwise. Just think how many calls they must get a day from absolute idiots.
> 
> If you have questions or concerns just give them a call. Robert offers stellar customer support. That, and as Kirk mentioned elsewhere in this thread, members of team Zapco are always lurking around to help outside of normal business hours.
> 
> ...


Isn't dealing with idiots a part of operating a business? If Zapco doesn't want phone calls from idiots, then they need to give all potential customers an IQ test before selling them a product. 

Why should anyone have to "lay down infrastructure" to get support for a product that they shelled out hard earned money for and that they even bought authorized? If you already have a relationship with your dealer there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't see why you _need_ to have that relationship to get all the benefits of a product that you've already paid for.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

khail19 said:


> Isn't dealing with idiots a part of operating a business? If Zapco doesn't want phone calls from idiots, then they need to give all potential customers an IQ test before selling them a product.
> 
> Why should anyone have to "lay down infrastructure" to get support for a product that they shelled out hard earned money for and that they even bought authorized? If you already have a relationship with your dealer there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't see why you _need_ to have that relationship to get all the benefits of a product that you've already paid for.


Pain in the ass yes... However, after much grief I see their stance.

The closest anology I can think of....

Say you have enough money to buy a lear jet. You may or may not have a freaking clue on how to fly it. If you do, good for you. If not, you could kill many people along with you in a firey death. 

Now, consider who the grief ridden relatives are going to go after in court. The owners of the apartment complex you crashed into or the developers of the jet you flew? Seems obvious right?

Zapco is just trying to prevent you from getting the jet in your hands until you are compitent. If you don't like this policy then, don't buy it. Everyone thinks owning a Lear Jet / DC amp would be sexy but do not want to assume the responsibility if something goes wrong.

Ge0


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

That analogy applies to virtually every product made. Kudos to Zapco as they are the only manufacturer who protects innocent citizens (or tweeters) from the inexperienced purchasers.


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

my .02 cents.......I think it would be a bigger deal if Zapco would not allow customers to have the software and codes at all.....I am not a big fan of DRM from a flexibility standpoint, but I still have an ipod.

I think part of the problem here is where we often find ourselves in "immediate need" like the OP..... we need it now and can't get it, causes frustration etc.

I think just like anything else you have a choice to purchase or not..... if it will do what you want then buy it, if not then don't.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Ge0 said:


> Pain in the ass yes... However, after much grief I see their stance.
> 
> The closest anology I can think of....
> 
> Say you have enough money to buy a lear jet. You may or may not have a freaking clue on how to fly it. If you do, good for you. If not, you could kill many people along with you in a firey death.


One sees how ludicrous that analogy is, of course, the moment one realizes that a license is needed to legally pilot an aircraft. Last I checked, there was no compelling government interest in restricting someone from actually being able to use an audio box s/he buys by requiring a license for that activity.

Really, the fact that you would think there's even the slightest smidgen of equivalence between a little car audio box and a freakin' _aircraft_ speaks to a truly extraordinary level of delusion on your part.



Ge0 said:


> Now, consider who the grief ridden relatives are going to go after in court. The owners of the apartment complex you crashed into or the developers of the jet you flew? Seems obvious right?


Your ignorance of the law is profound. The company (assuming the incompetent pilot had a valid license and the plane did not crash because of a manufacturing defect) would have no more liability than Mazda would if I ran my Miata into someone's living room. Were a plaintiff to file such a suit, Learjet's lawyers would file a Rule 56 motion for summary judgment, and it would be granted in a heartbeat.



fredridge said:


> my .02 cents.......I think it would be a bigger deal if Zapco would not allow customers to have the software and codes at all.....I am not a big fan of DRM from a flexibility standpoint, but I still have an ipod.


Of course, Apple puts their iPod firmware updates free online for anyone to download. Moreover, you can load any music you own onto an iPod, so long as it's one of several formats that can be encoded for free by any number of tools, including Apple's free-to-download iTunes.

To use a more apt analogy than the bizarre Learjet one, supra, Zapco's policy is like Apple making customers pay someone at an Apple Store's Genius Bar to run their spell-check for them in every document created by that customer in Pages that the customer wants electronically proofread. BUT if the customer passes a spelling test then the Genius Bar dude has the discretion to consider unlocking spell check on Pages for that person. Idiotic is the word that keeps popping up in my mind.


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## gcsuper (Feb 20, 2008)

khail19 said:


> Isn't dealing with idiots a part of operating a business? If Zapco doesn't want phone calls from idiots, then they need to give all potential customers an IQ test before selling them a product.
> 
> Why should anyone have to "lay down infrastructure" to get support for a product that they shelled out hard earned money for and that they even bought authorized? If you already have a relationship with your dealer there's nothing wrong with that, but I don't see why you _need_ to have that relationship to get all the benefits of a product that you've already paid for.


you should tell that all those people that call customer support because they have issues with thier PC's. You buy it from Circuit city and you have an issue with the PC they tell you to call the manufacturer, then the manufacturer will tell you its the software, where do they tell you to go? Microsoft. Anyone with Vista feels the pain. And most of the people call because they lost an Icon on there desktop they can't find anymore, So lets all make them take an IQ test too.


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

I have had awesome customer service dealing with Robert Rugani! Both my DSP and controller came with a software CD. Not to mention a whole bunch of tips I received from Robert. Most of which I really did not need. This is due to my vast experience dealing with the Alto Mobile drive30 & UCSPro units. Point is, the level of support I received is better than any other brand I have delt with. So good that if/when my finances allows it, I would run all Zapco.






.


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

gcsuper said:


> you should tell that all those people that call customer support because they have issues with thier PC's. You buy it from Circuit city and you have an issue with the PC they tell you to call the manufacturer, then the manufacturer will tell you its the software, where do they tell you to go? Microsoft. Anyone with Vista feels the pain. And most of the people call because they lost an Icon on there desktop they can't find anymore, So lets all make them take an IQ test too.


They did take an IQ test. Vista or something else... Leopard, Ubuntu, what have you. They failed. That is why they have Vista.

I am glad that the OP finally got what should have been in the package to begin with... the software without which the device is a brick, and the password without which the software is jsut a bunch of gibberish.

It's like buying a new tv, taking it home and finding out that after installing it yourself, you still have to pay the dealer to come out and program your channels in... and everytime you want to access the color settings you potentially have to pay him again, unless he decides to be a nice guy and give you the password. 99.9% of people can't set them correctly, or their VCR clock... but no one ever required you to get the dealer to give you a password and software to make your VCR's record button work. That is WHY you bought it in the first place.

I mean hell, at least Nissan Lets the new skyline automatically unlock race parameters when GPS says it is at a track... And you have the choice of voiding the warranty or submitting to $1000 a pop dealer visits after every visit to a track. They don;t lock the car permanantly to 105 mph unless you have the dealer come unlock it at the track every time you want to race there

Zapco's position is taking it a bit too far IMO. But it is their product and they can do what they want with it...


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> You must be a dealer, because otherwise it would be patently obvious to you what utter ******** that is.
> 
> If someone doesn't know how to use a piece of equipment and smokes a tweeter because of it, that's the person's own damn fault, and everyone knows it. Not only that, but also your attempt at an argument further falls apart because said customer isn't going to be smart enough to trace the problem back to the box anyway. S/he is going to ***** to the tweeter manufacturer. (Or, this being car-fi, tweeter marketer.)
> 
> ...


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## CobraVin (Jul 31, 2007)

well i think we all agree that, (and in my experience, Zapco(Robert in particular) has great customer service and are nice people, ........up to the point of the dc software issue

some one could blow their tweeters up adjusting the gains or crossovers from any amp or head unit, that argument makes no sense, if you dont want to field phone calls from people who are clueless thats fine, just give basic setup instuctions in the manual and be done with it 

i think this policy is wrong and fights against the Zapco reputation of first class customer service, this software which they refuse to give out used to be available on their website for free download was it not?, how do you you "go through your dealer" when you bought used?, should all the used Zapco dc amps be thrown away once sold from the original user, what if the software is missing or you would like to upgrade to a better version of the software
the used market for 20 year old Zapco amps is still strong which helps Zapco's reputation for reliability, whats the used DC market like?, and will that help future sales of DC amps?

having to find someone nice enough to give me a copy of the software and password so i could use my amps (had two DC's, now just one and two C2K's) was annoying and left a bad impression on me, dont get me wrong i love all my amps, they sound great and are built well, but if i had know they were going to take that stance on the software with me after having it on their website for free in the past, i would have bought another amp brand without a doubt, my money spends anywhere not just at Zapco dealers


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

When you buy a system processor for professional audio it comes with the software and it's urged to go to the website and download the latest revisions and/or firmware for the unit. If the user screws up and nukes something, and it DOES happen, then it's the user's fault, it's plain and simple and explained in the manual. When you buy one of the new breeds of amplifiers with DSP built in the software is also included, firmware update procedures are also explained and the amp is shipped wide open, full range, fully capable of clipping. And guess what? you nuke a speaker from a reputable maker, and it's not a DESIGN ERROR or something that's listed as a covered warranty item, in other words, you nuke it on stupidity, don't think you are going to be able to cry warranty, it's the knocks of life. It sickens me to hear of people blowing a driver from a mistake and getting it covered under warranty, and then wonder why it's a dying industry.

Protecting the users from themselves only makes them as a part of a "user society" MORE of a "finger pointing generation," sometimes you just have to swallow your pride and admit you made a mistake as a consumer, I think we have all had to do it at some point. 

I've posted on this very topic before and have not changed my stance, in fact I searched for it and could not find my post, but it's close to the same. I even eluded to an idiot test, but as an advanced user I'd be pretty darn pissed if DBX, Shure, Rane, BSS, Behringer, Sabine, BBE, XTA, Klark Teknik, etc administered a test to me every time I needed software to set up a rig, because I have damn near every piece of software for damn near every pro unit on my laptop and only own one brand at the time. I need this software to assist clients, and although I am not a dealer those companies KNOW they need consultants to prevent them from getting calls from a disgruntled customer.

So think about this Zapco..... what if I called you and admitted I did not have one of your amplifiers and processors and I wanted some software, which is something I can do from the support page of 99.99% of other websites, where would I end up?

Chad


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> One sees how ludicrous that analogy is, of course, the moment one realizes that a license is needed to legally pilot an aircraft. Last I checked, there was no compelling government interest in restricting someone from actually being able to use an audio box s/he buys by requiring a license for that activity.
> 
> Really, the fact that you would think there's even the slightest smidgen of equivalence between a little car audio box and a freakin' _aircraft_ speaks to a truly extraordinary level of delusion on your part.
> 
> ...


Dude, chill...

Admittedly I know nothing about aviation or of the law. Never stated that I did and don't care to. It was just a simple example.

OK, how about I think of some analogy that involves hedge trimmers or scissors. Would that get your panties out of their bunch?

Ge0


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> When you say a lot of dealer dont have the knowledge to make these adjustments......what are you making that statement based off of? The Dealers in your area? There are far more dealers that have the knowledge to adjust this product. The ones that dont really dont sell the DC line.
> 
> No we are not saying have the dealers adjust your car. We are saying you have to get the software from the dealer. If he feels you have the knowledge needed he will give you the software.


I know I'm a little behind the curve on this but I CAN easily state the quality of dealer representation. The fact is...Zapco is expensive stuff and it needs distribution to sell. The local rep here, in my area, must have to whore himself out to EVERY local shop here to keep afloat. There isn't a locally owned shop here that doesn't carry Zapco. The representation of Zapco is now in the hands of every dealer in the area. Have they been trained by Zapco? I garantee I know every bit of the Zapco product line better than all the local dealers and I am a newbie. Why, then, should we trust the dealer? Did you, Robert, check with the dealers, individually, and guage whether or not THEY should have the password? I recently bought a Zapco 500.1 amp for my sub. There was a simbilink to RCA question and the dealer just exchanged it for a Treo amp....turns out it is just a little simbilink to RCA adaptor that he didn't know was out there. I looked at all DCS stuff and the dealer just didn't know how to use it....so I went with Sinfoni. I do appreciate the catalyst involved with a failed Zapco presentation. If not for that, I wouldn't have my pretties.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

I have to agree with Chad and DS-21. Its a freggin BOX for caraudio, that happens to cost ALOT of money for a customer to have deal with hurdles post purchase to use the freggin' thing. Restricting the use of the software whether by owners of the device that requires it or creating red tape for buyers of used goods or simply a customer interested in seeing how the software works seems pretentious and a tad elitist-by anyone attempting to make actual sense of this. No offense, but if you are one of benefit (a competitor, or customer that got your software with your purchase) your 2 cents do didly squat in relation to the OP issue, this new 'policy' between Zapco and dealer, and the very excuses coming out of the Horse's mouth as to why this policy is in effect. This is beyond restriction, and frankly a tad anti-consumer....of the very consumer buying the product. I cant see a good argument for customer service when the very product you sell, does not include the necessary to use it out of the box. it makes no sense. Last thing one wants to do post purchase is plead for something they already paid for.

I had no idea Zapco was doing this, I have not used their products in many years. Certainly this practice is something that would leave a bad taste in my mouth , and the OP is entitled to share these frustrations, forum or not. Dont see why there should be a private or behind closed door matter.

Zapco ,nor any other CE company will come out of pocket to replace or warranty another product that fails in the signal chain, user error or not. So the 'finger pointing' reasoning is a pretty horseshyt excuse IMHO. And this is coming from someone in the retail chain. A paying customer deserves the benefit of the doubt, particularly one footing the bill for overpriced product,' high end '. Some may feel it was 'good customer service' to get their software AFTER pleading for it post-purchase, though many would be in the camp that consider this quite an inconvenience and a poor way to bond a customer's head to his dealer's rectum. As a customer, thats one thing many can do without.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

I'll restate, train the dealers. Dealer should have recognized the need for action on behalf of the OP's purchase. No pleading necessary, the dealer should have known. It's easy to claim user error but it's our stuff that gets fried by the dealers (BTW all of the "installer" problems I've had are a Zapco dealer). They are your represntation to the public. Who should have the IQ test? Us or them?


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

I do not agree with Zapco's policy for the same reasons many have stated thusfar. However, I decided to stick it out and deal / work with it. it was an inconvenience at first but in the long run I am a very happy customer. It is understood that not everyone will put up with this and shop elsewhere. Fine. Money talks right? 

Zapco set this policy for their own reasons. It is their decision to make and their loss if sales start to dwindle because of it. My guess, if this does start to occur then you may see a change in policy. But for now they seem to be churning along just fine the way it is.

Ge0


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## Selkies (Mar 13, 2008)

Would it really be that hard or expensive to put a little documentation in the amp package that says in big, bold red letters something to the tune of "READ ME FIRST or you could seriously damage your audio system!"? The said pamphlet could be the first thing the customer opens the box to, and it would explain the software settings and dangers. All that's left is to include the software with each amp. I can think of a few companies who do similar things with sophisticated hardware (such as wireless routers). It seems like a no-brainer to me...


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

so i purchased a dc amp to drive my legatia speakers through an old friend who _is_ an authorized dealer, yet he resides on the opposite side of the country from me so he shipped it. no, it was not an "internet sale".

i have yet to install the amp, but there is a cd in the box which i assume is the software. i will be installing the amp this week. are you telling me that the software will require a password in order to use it?

no, i'm not a n00b, and fully understand the capabilities of the software - it's the reason i purchased the amp.

thanks,
ben


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Ge0 said:


> But for now they seem to be churning along just fine the way it is.


Apparently not, if posts like these are popping up, and in response, the company rep bitches about the "industry."

Damn right money talks, and mine will now walk elsewhere.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

benny z said:


> so i purchased a dc amp to drive my legatia speakers through an old friend who _is_ an authorized dealer, yet he resides on the opposite side of the country from me so he shipped it. no, it was not an "internet sale".
> 
> i have yet to install the amp, but there is a cd in the box which i assume is the software. i will be installing the amp this week. are you telling me that the software will require a password in order to use it?
> 
> ...


Not as big of a deal as you may think Benny Z. You need help just ask. Many people who waste countless hours on this forum (including myself) can help you out.

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

capnxtreme said:


> Apparently not, if posts like these are popping up, and in response, the company rep bitches about the "industry."
> 
> Damn right money talks, and mine will now walk elsewhere.


All I meant to say is that if they are happy with it, and it works for them, then so be it.

The unfortunate thing is that not many other options exist if you are putting together a system with this type of capability. I wonder if the eventual introduction of the MS-8 will affect their stance at all?

Ge0


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

i hear kenwood has an interesting amp w/ a similar built-in dsp... maybe not quite as many adjustment steps, but it looked interesting. i wonder if that is password protected...


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

http://www.nxsmobileaudio.com/amplifiers.htm


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## BlackSapphire (Apr 16, 2008)

benny z said:


> i hear kenwood has an interesting amp w/ a similar built-in dsp... maybe not quite as many adjustment steps, but it looked interesting. i wonder if that is password protected...


 LOL


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## vjgli (Nov 4, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> http://www.nxsmobileaudio.com/amplifiers.htm


http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=m73t3l.4.1

Owner (APPLICANT) 
NXS AUDIO LIMITED COMPANY 
HONG KONG UNIT 1101, 
METRO CENTRE II 21 LAM HING STREET 
KOWLOON BAY, 
KOWLLOON HONG KONG


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

I have never owned any Zapco products, but here are my opinions based on what I've read in this thread:

First I get the impression that the dealer is more important to Zapco than the consumer. I could be wrong in this assumption, but this seems backwards to me. I understand the dealer is who buys mass quantities of the product, but the consumer is who you really need to please. By not including the software i feel that you are adding an extra step for the consumer, the person who pays your wages.

Second, this amp is obviously geared toward a more experienced group of audio consumers (sure there are plenty of clueless people who have cash that will buy them, but that's the case with any product) By not including the software, you give me the impression that the company's mission is to sell this amp to the "Rich Kid" more so than the "Enthusiast" if the target consumer is in fact the enthusiast, than the amp should include everything that the Enthusiast needs.

I see your point in that you are trying to protect the consumer from damaging the equipment, but I don't agree with the method. I'll throw out an analogy of my own that seems more appropriate: This situation would be like amps coming WITHOUT gain knobs and letting the dealer decide whether or not they want to give the customer the ability to adjust the gain past the minimum. People can damage their equipment in many ways, but other companies don't give their product to the consumer incomplete just to protect their equipment. GIVE THE CONSUMER EVERYTHING THEY NEED TO USE THE PRODUCT!

Please don't take this as a negative comment towards Zapco, I'd love to try the equipment someday, but i feel that if this product was really intended to be sold to the marked that it appears to have been engineered for, something like the necessary software would be included in ever package.


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## Duckman (Aug 5, 2007)

When I was looking for a dealer here in ARKANSAS and I contacted ZAPCO...I was impressed from who contacted me: from a VP to a regional rep to the dealer...then followed up. I'm sorry ARC won't do that. Dang very nice folks...I'd do business with them.


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## BlueAc (May 19, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> http://www.nxsmobileaudio.com/amplifiers.htm


Wow! They even look like the DC's. Anymore info on these... like price or reviews? On another note... I too had the pleasure of dealing with Robert. He helped me get a bunch of stuff that I needed for my install. His service was top notch, something can't be said about a lot of other companies out here. Not saying that I agree with the policy, just giving my 2 cents about my experiences with Zapco so far.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Ge0 said:


> Dude, chill...
> 
> Admittedly I know nothing about aviation or of the law. Never stated that I did and don't care to. It was just a simple example.
> 
> ...


It wasn't a simple example, it was a profoundly wrongheaded example. There is a large difference. And why are you talking about people filing suit under tort causes of action if you're admittedly ignorant of the most basic precepts of tort law? Better to be silent and thought a fool than bang on the keyboard and remove all doubt, and all that.



3.5max6spd said:


> pretentious and a tad elitist-by anyone attempting to make actual sense of this


Just to be clear, I've no special objection to pretension an elitism, when it is warranted. Here, it clearly is not. We're talking about a few lines of code run on a box, that is likely little different from lines of code that run on similar boxes.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

ca90ss said:


> http://www.nxsmobileaudio.com/amplifiers.htm


Hmm...can anyone familiar with Zapco's software tell us if it looks anything like this?










If so, problem appears to be solved. 

It would be really interesting if Zapco, whose basic amp design from decades ago is now basically everyone's design, is simply relabeling Asian-designed product now.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)




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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

This is completely blown out of proportion! This is like a discussion you would see on other forums. 99% of the folks on here I would not have a problem giving the password to. If someone can discuss, with some intelligence, basic audio I have no problem helping them. Neither does Zapco.

Eventually I think the software will be setup like the Pro Audio equipment. Buy the equipment, sign on to get current updates, and happy tuning.

K


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

I find this absolutely amusing... do the people here who are griping realize that this forum and others make up less than 1% of car audio market share... that leaves a super large percentage of idiots and morons that use and abuse... give me a break.... and how many of you have ever worked at a shop? because I can tell you how many end users come back after adjusting gain or built in crossovers only to come back and claim that "I DIDN"T TOUCH THAT" ********.... All I can say is that I find your comments on how oppresive big bad ZAPCO is against the "MAN" absolutely funny.... jesus


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## hawkfan (May 1, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> I find this absolutely amusing... do the people here who are griping realize that this forum and others make up less than 1% of car audio market share... that leaves a super large percentage of idiots and morons that use and abuse... give me a break.... and how many of you have ever worked at a shop? because I can tell you how many end users come back after adjusting gain or built in crossovers only to come back and claim that "I DIDN"T TOUCH THAT" ********.... All I can say is that I find your comments on how oppresive big bad ZAPCO is against the "MAN" absolutely funny.... jesus


Hey, that goes both ways guy. It's a friggin amp, NOT a nuclear device. What's happening to car audio? Anyone who purchases these amps over the standard Ref is doing so for the DSP. If you're buying the thing authorized, you should get everything you need to operate said DSP. All this talk about "idiots" and "morons" is a little too condescending for me, and I actually went to tech school. I'd like to give the consumer more credit than that until they prove me wrong.:blush:


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

hawkfan said:


> Hey, that goes both ways guy. It's a friggin amp, NOT a nuclear device. What's happening to car audio? Anyone who purchases these amps over the standard Ref is doing so for the DSP. If you're buying the thing authorized, you should get everything you need to operate said DSP. All this talk about "idiots" and "morons" is a little too condescending for me, and I actually went to tech school. I'd like to give the consumer more credit than that until they prove me wrong.:blush:


And end users DO get everything they need. I personally do not know a single person that does not have full access. And you can also change the password and LOCK THE DEALER OUT. It works both ways.


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

hawkfan said:


> Hey, that goes both ways guy. It's a friggin amp, NOT a nuclear device. What's happening to car audio? Anyone who purchases these amps over the standard Ref is doing so for the DSP. If you're buying the thing authorized, you should get everything you need to operate said DSP. All this talk about "idiots" and "morons" is a little too condescending for me, and I actually went to tech school. I'd like to give the consumer more credit than that until they prove me wrong.:blush:


once again you do not understand the big picture.. you guys are 50 people bitching in a world that consitutes the smallest percentage of the market..we come to these forums to talk about car audio "installation, tuning, product" the majority of end users could give a **** less and that's the bottom line... 

the amp was to eliminate end user error as well as provide both authorized dealers and well versed consumers the opportunity to tune. It is the authorized dealers responsibility to provide the end user with everything he/she needs...


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## NOBODY (Jun 3, 2008)

i had the same kind of issue with zapco... childish kids run that company...


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## gcsuper (Feb 20, 2008)

NOBODY said:


> i had the same kind of issue with zapco... childish kids run that company...


then I hope my kids will someday run a multi million dollar company that has helped mold car audio to what it is today, if this is the case then let my kids stay kids thier whole life, screw my kids, heck, stick a diaper on me and put a pacifier in my mouth, i'll do it.


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## NOBODY (Jun 3, 2008)

gcsuper said:


> then I hope my kids will someday run a multi million dollar company that has helped mold car audio to what it is today, if this is the case then let my kids stay kids thier whole life, screw my kids, heck, stick a diaper on me and put a pacifier in my mouth, i'll do it.


dude, your lame as hell...


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## gcsuper (Feb 20, 2008)

NOBODY said:


> dude, your lame as hell...


bet you actually had to pullout a thesaurus to use these words that are higher then your current vocabulary?


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## BlueAc (May 19, 2007)

NOBODY said:


> dude, your lame as hell...


How'd I get on on ca.com... oh wait I'm not! I'm on the new DIYMA!


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## pikers (Oct 21, 2007)

capnxtreme said:


> How is not including the software supporting the dealers though?
> 
> If I were going to buy a DC series it'd be because I wanted to tune everything myself.
> 
> Pirating software has been around for longer than selling things on eBay has, it ain't hard. I'm not convinced as to why I shouldn't buy one off eBay and get a pirated copy of the software, if screwing the GOOD PAYING customer is your attitude? **** the dealers, who REALLY pays your bills?


It's up to you, just don't rely on a dealer or Zapco to assist you after the fact. If you don't need them you don't need them.



DS-21 said:


> That is an idiotic policy. Supporting dealers by fighting non-authorized sales, that's fair enough, though of course gear that's of high quality and properly priced for the market doesn't need any such silly gimmicks.


Thing is, "proper pricing" is dictated by whom? Ebay? Unauthorizedgaragesale.com? Whom? 

Authorized dealers as reflected by the manufacturer. Anything else is unreasonable.



> The software, I assume, is required to adjust crossover settings, levels, and whatever else the box in question does. Do you really think it serves your customers to force them to rely on one some dealer to dial in their systems? Most car-fi dealers are abject tin-ears, sad to say. Certainly, I've never seen a car-fi dealer with the caliber of equipment of even amateur hobbyists. And they don't understand the products they sell. Most of 'em wouldn't even know what a Faraday ring was, or why a cone driver lacking one is unacceptable and frankly shameful in 2008. Not to mention their (as a collective, to be sure must be exceptions though none that I've personally met) utterly pathetic ignorance of modern measurement technology. I've been in a bunch of install bays, and never seen one with so much as a Mac equiped with the FuzzMeasure Pro MLS measurement software, a good mic preamp, and a calibrated measurement mic, for instance. Let alone an actual professional measurement rig! Hell, one rarely even sees an antequated old AudioControl RTA in most install bins!


What are you doing in an OSHA-regulated install bay? Looking over the shoulder of an installer while he works on your car, or telling him what you would do better? 

Most good dealers I know charge a separate fee for calibration. Fact is, professionals don't need to discuss the things that only impress hobbyists with too much time on their hands. I've seen chat room pros go into the shop just to jibberjabber about the newest topic-du-jour on their fave forum. Businesses have better things to do. It could very well be that they don't think FuzzyMeasurement Semi-Pro doesn't fit their needs.

Point is don't judge all dealers based on the poor ones you encounter. Same reason why you don't judge an entire race of people because one representative of that race stole your bike.



> There's a reason that most people on this forum disdain the car-fi industry and use its products, grudgingly, only when there is not a practical alternative to be found from a more reasonable source. Amps, for instance.


Again, because you have the unfortunate circumstance of poor dealers in your area. I give you the benefit of the doubt here, assuming you are qualified to actually judge what a poor dealer is. Could be you just annoy them to the point of causing them to give a bad impression to you--who knows. Just playing devil's advacado.


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## NOBODY (Jun 3, 2008)

gcsuper said:


> bet you actually had to pullout a thesaurus to use these words that are higher then your current vocabulary?


haphazardly, you found diyma... right?

get a life...


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> And end users DO get everything they need. I personally do not know a single person that does not have full access. And you can also change the password and LOCK THE DEALER OUT. It works both ways.


What about people who buy them used?


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## gcsuper (Feb 20, 2008)

NOBODY said:


> haphazardly, you found diyma... right?
> 
> get a life...


Pushing the limits of our vocabulary with that one.. Found google did we? DUDE.....


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> It wasn't a simple example, it was a profoundly wrongheaded example. There is a large difference. And why are you talking about people filing suit under tort causes of action if you're admittedly ignorant of the most basic precepts of tort law? Better to be silent and thought a fool than bang on the keyboard and remove all doubt, and all that.
> 
> 
> 
> Just to be clear, I've no special objection to pretension an elitism, when it is warranted. Here, it clearly is not. We're talking about a few lines of code run on a box, that is likely little different from lines of code that run on similar boxes.


Call me a fool, who fuggin cares. I certainly do not. I am a person who is focused on the ultimate performance in car audio and who give a **** about this off topic arguement. Spout off all the lingo you want. It does not impress me. Add something usefull to this arguement and I might change my stance.

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

the other hated guy said:


> once again you do not understand the big picture.. you guys are 50 people bitching in a world that consitutes the smallest percentage of the market..we come to these forums to talk about car audio "installation, tuning, product" the majority of end users could give a **** less and that's the bottom line...
> 
> the amp was to eliminate end user error as well as provide both authorized dealers and well versed consumers the opportunity to tune. It is the authorized dealers responsibility to provide the end user with everything he/she needs...


Well said Randy. Thank you...

Ge0


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> This is completely blown out of proportion! This is like a discussion you would see on other forums. 99% of the folks on here I would not have a problem giving the password to. If someone can discuss, with some intelligence, basic audio I have no problem helping them. Neither does Zapco.
> 
> Eventually I think the software will be setup like the Pro Audio equipment. Buy the equipment, sign on to get current updates, and happy tuning.
> 
> K


Thus the reason why I was frustrated for a moment but stuck around for more. Once you get over the inital hurdle it's a pleasant experience. K and many others like him are here to help outside of Zapco proper. I couldn't be happier with my Zapco experience. For god sakes, have 8 hours of patience!!!

Ge0


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> Eventually I think the software will be setup like the Pro Audio equipment. Buy the equipment, sign on to get current updates, and happy tuning.


Hopefully, but it seems that some manufacturers (such as Zapco) might have to be shamed to reach the level of, say, Harman, who put the IQnet software to control their Crown XTi-series amps and other DSP-based products on the internet, and while they might ask you for an e-mail they certainly don't ask you for product serial numbers, or even what you're running. (I d/l'ed it and played with it before I bought my first XTi2000 for a home subwoofer, to see if it was suitable.)



AcuraTLSQ said:


> Thing is, "proper pricing" is dictated by whom? Ebay? Unauthorizedgaragesale.com? Whom?


Very possibly, yes. 



AcuraTLSQ said:


> Authorized dealers as reflected by the manufacturer. Anything else is unreasonable.


Actually, no. Some of us prefer to have a basic understanding of economics over blindly supplicating to corporate greed. Pricing on what is basically a commodity product such as a car audio amplifier is not unilaterally dictated by one side, but is an agreement between buyer and seller. If the seller is asking too much for a given product, then other channels will inevitably open.

And I have absolutely no problem at all going around idiot authorized dealers. For example, a few years ago Bergdorf Goodman in NYC carried shoes by Laszlo Vass, a phenomenal Hungarian shoemaker. (He also wrote an excellent book, Handmade Shoes for Men.) I think they asked $1300 or so for Vass's signature "Budapester" model. I own several pairs of Vass shoes. Did I buy a single pair from Bergdorf? Hell no. I bought my first pair from Budapester Schuhe in Berlin, for about 450EUR when the dollar was actually worth more than the euro. Subsequent pairs I've "grey-market" ordered from a (different) German source, or for my made-to-order ones, called or visited them directly and paid them directly. The Vass importer apparently learned about the "grey-market" source at some point, and bitched and moaned to Vass to shut them down to protect their little "authorized dealer" racket. But if it weren't for that, Vass would've certainly lost some sales from me at least, because for the price Bergdorf and the hack importers wanted I'm getting shoes made for me by Georg Materna in Vienna and not buying off the peg.



AcuraTLSQ said:


> What are you doing in an OSHA-regulated install bay? Looking over the shoulder of an installer while he works on your car, or telling him what you would do better?


Oh grow up. In the real world, people all the time ask you back to point out different things and whatever.
(And no professional installer has touched my personal cars since I was 17 and afraid to cut into my dash so I had Jerry Vento install my head unit. Any time I've gone to a car-fi dealer it has been because they were in the process of doing something for a friend or relative under my direction.) 



AcuraTLSQ said:


> Most good dealers I know charge a separate fee for calibration.


Which is reasonable, _if_ they have the proper measurement gear. I can't think of one dealer in Atlanta who does, though. 



AcuraTLSQ said:


> I've seen chat room pros go into the shop just to jibberjabber about the newest topic-du-jour on their fave forum. Businesses have better things to do. It could very well be that they don't think FuzzyMeasurement Semi-Pro doesn't fit their needs.


Now you're just being (typically) ignorant and stupid, _proving exactly my point about car-fi dealers generally._ 

If FuzzMeasure Pro (or whatever the not-a-Mac equivalents may be, LMS or Smaart I suppose) is good enough for people such as Audyssey's Chief Technological Officer Chris Kyriakakis to use in the lab and the field, John Atkinson to use for measurements published in the magazine he edits (Stereophile), it's certainly good enough for a car-fi installer. And it's also not expensive at all. Assuming one already has the Mac, it's only about $125 or so for the software, a decent FireWire mic preamp is $200 or less, and a serviceable measurement mic is ~$50 plus maybe $125 annually for professional calibration. If an audio business cannot justify that kind of paltry expense, and does not see the compelling need to make that kind of purchase (or, I suppose, the purchase of one of the not-a-Mac equivalents), then obviously they don't understand how audio works in the modern world, and don't seem to care to learn.

Besides, I've better things to do with my time than hang out and shoot the breeze with people who carry mediocre gear (and basically _all_ car-fi marketed speakers and drive units are mediocre compared to what's available on the hobbyist market) and wouldn't know the difference between a decent measurement mic and an anal probe.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> Hmm...can anyone familiar with Zapco's software tell us if it looks anything like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I work in the electronics industry and have an idea surrounding the circumstances. Chances are Zapco did not develop this system themselves. Rather they may have shopped around and found a compatible partner. They may have their own special requirements on this platform. You nor I know. 

HOWEVER, they selected this format and stand by it. They support it with as much as they can give. What more do you all want??? Do you think this fly by night brand name using similar technology will give you the same support and/or performance? I would hope that they do but have my doubts. Give it up pursuing this path. Apples do not equal apples in all instances. 

I bought into the Zapco solution #1 for what I get in the long run out of the deal #2 for the raw equipment. If you feel you can get the same thing buying through NXS then please do so...

I have been following Zapco for 20 years. I have grown to know and trust them. Only recently have I been able to afford them without hessitation. Good for me but who fuggin cares. Can you say you would trust a company you just heard about the same about to the same degree?

Ge0


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

the other hated guy said:


> once again you do not understand the big picture.. you guys are 50 people bitching in a world that consitutes the smallest percentage of the market..we come to these forums to talk about car audio "installation, tuning, product" the majority of end users could give a **** less and that's the bottom line...
> 
> the amp was to eliminate end user error as well as provide both authorized dealers and well versed consumers the opportunity to tune. It is the authorized dealers responsibility to provide the end user with everything he/she needs...


Come on man, you are sharper than that!

And it WILL work that way for the other large percentage you mentioned. Chances are if the end user is happy with their rig they will not mess with it. Sorry man, DSP is no spring chicken, it's been in my world for a long time and that large percentage of users you mentioned I have too, and they simply don't **** with it, even though they have the software, because it works and they'd rather call me to come in and do touch ups, and touch-ups WILL need to be done after the system in implemented and used, and a wish list is generated. So the club owner, church, whatever is dumb enough to hand the software to their sound wanker, and they **** it up, I go in and upload their presets, because a competent dealer has those files in their customer database, and if they blow something, it's not my damn problem, it's theirs, they ****ed up, plain and simple. 

Dealers need to grow balls, THAT is the down and dirty reason this industry is where it is, a dealer would rather ***** and moan to the public instead of standing up for their dealer territory and what they believe in. I'll bet 50% of my rep meetings were comprised of why this store in my area is selling a particular brand of equipment, they MAY be authorized to sell it downstate, in another territory but they transferred inventory and are selling it here now, it is the REP's job to do something about it if they value the dealers in their territory, plain and simple, grow balls and stand up, even if it's to your customers.

But the down and dirty is, the customer is not going to jack with it, if they do it's their own stupid ass that deserves to pay if carnage results. Sears sells every damn tool to break an engine completely apart, do you think car dealerships worry about some wanker pulling an engine apart and then having to swallow a rebuild warranty bill, hell no! They have balls! and just like audio, the average customer just ain't gonna go break down their engine in their garage, just because it seems like the fun thing to do.



DS-21 said:


> Hopefully, but it seems that some manufacturers (such as Zapco) might have to be shamed to reach the level of, say, Harman, who put the IQnet software to control their Crown XTi-series amps and other DSP-based products on the internet, and while they might ask you for an e-mail they certainly don't ask you for product serial numbers, or even what you're running. (I d/l'ed it and played with it before I bought my first XTi2000 for a home subwoofer, to see if it was suitable.)


Exactly, when shopping for processing I WILL and DO download all the software to play with it. I want to see what it will do, how easy it is to work, how quick I can get around it. Little things like what are the crossover and EQ steps, things that are not in the cut sheets will be presented in the software, that is free, from the company's website.

If a new client calls me and says, for example, they have a specific processor, I WILL go armed with that software and I will look into how to use it and have the appropriate cabling before I go in, I will also have the installing dealer's phone number in case it's locked out. What if a Zapco dealer in a territory goes under, and the customer needs service, and a COMPETENT repair facility or installer tells the company "sorry I can't get into your amp, I need software that's not available," and since the customer may not have the latest software, or it's pass-key, they are screwed, resulting in more downtime, more customer frustration, and a sour taste to Zapco fro putting out a product that is no longer serviceable within their area.

Bottom line, again, DSP is no spring chicken, most customers are genuinely frightened to jack with it, consultants need the ability to support a product no matter who sold it, if it's such a damn good product it will outlive many dealers in this industry, plain and simple.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

I like it when Chad gets roudy


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

aworldcollision said:


> I like it when Chad gets roudy


Sexy ain't it?

Ge0


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## pikers (Oct 21, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> Actually, no. Some of us prefer to have a basic understanding of economics over blindly supplicating to corporate greed. Pricing on what is basically a commodity product such as a car audio amplifier is not unilaterally dictated by one side, but is an agreement between buyer and seller. If the seller is asking too much for a given product, then other channels will inevitably open.


If those channels are unauthorized, it's basically like telling the ump that you don't like three strikes and demand a fourth. It's irrelevant. 

You might end up with an amp, but most manufacturers will wash their hands of the situation. And rightly so, since most failures tend to be attributed to grey-market items.



> And I have absolutely no problem at all going around idiot authorized dealers.


It's all about protecting the reputation of the product. Even if you don't like the dealer, you can at least be assured that the product you're getting is legit and real. And, even if the dealer's support is worthless, the manufacturer is still there for things like this.



> Oh grow up. In the real world, people all the time ask you back to point out different things and whatever.
> (And no professional installer has touched my personal cars since I was 17 and afraid to cut into my dash so I had Jerry Vento install my head unit. Any time I've gone to a car-fi dealer it has been because they were in the process of doing something for a friend or relative under my direction.)


I was just speculating based on the crap I've seen over the years. Enthusiasts in a specialty retail environment tend to be price-focused time suckers more than anything else. Again, just generalizing, like you.



> Which is reasonable, _if_ they have the proper measurement gear. I can't think of one dealer in Atlanta who does, though.


I can't think of too many things redeeming about Atlanta. 



> Now you're just being (typically) ignorant and stupid, _proving exactly my point about car-fi dealers generally._


Nah, just speculating. Experience isn't always a positive thing.


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## CobraVin (Jul 31, 2007)

wow this is turning into a pissing contest, people getting defensive like there talkin about your mama, like the original poster and the others the issue is about the software not being attainable through Zapco, not whether you can "find" a copy, not whether your dealer will give you a copy, and if like me you buy used your on your own, people think the policy blows, not the product or the rest of the customer service

in fact thats was one of the reasons i wanted Zapco amps, in addition to being well built, great sounding and the ability to send it in for repair should it ever need it (as long as the serial # is in tact)



AcuraTLSQ said:


> 99% of the folks on here I would not have a problem giving the password to. If someone can discuss, with some intelligence, basic audio I have no problem helping them.  Neither does Zapco.
> *again not the point if someone is smart enough to have you give them a password, but Zapco wont*
> Eventually I think the software will be setup like the Pro Audio equipment. Buy the equipment, sign on to get current updates, and happy tuning.
> 
> K


 *i think they used to have software updates available for download, someone decided that was not the right thing to do i guess*




the other hated guy said:


> I find this absolutely amusing... do the people here who are griping realize that this forum and others make up less than 1% of car audio market share... that leaves a super large percentage of idiots and morons that use and abuse... give me a break.... and how many of you have ever worked at a shop? because I can tell you how many end users come back after adjusting gain or built in crossovers only to come back and claim that "I DIDN"T TOUCH THAT" ********.... All I can say is that I find your comments on how oppresive big bad ZAPCO is against the "MAN" absolutely funny.... jesus


*like others have said you can blow up speakers adjusting the gains and crossover setting on any amp or head unit, is there more liability in a DC amp?*




AcuraTLSQ said:


> And end users DO get everything they need. I personally do not know a single person that does not have full access. And you can also change the password and LOCK THE DEALER OUT. It works both ways.


*not if you buy used, you have to rely on someone being nice enough to "sneek" it to you, i just think that the used market should not feel like they are the red headed step children, the used market, like in cars, still contribute to the brands value and reliability image, (think honda, toyota) and at least in my case some postive advertising for everyone that hears my system and says, "wow that sounds great, what kind of amps are those", i actually get that more than "what kind of speakers or head unit is that?" *


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> No we are not trying to screw anyone. We are trying to save people from themselves.
> 
> You said "**** the dealers".....really.......where do you think this industry would be without them?


No truer words spoken in the car audio industry.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

And he also took my quote out of context, point being, it is the END USER shelling out their hard-earned paychecks to make the paychecks for those in the racket/industry.

I am young and new to the scene, and I very quite honestly don't know why I should be appreciative of the dealers? I would be happy to listen. But every one I've ever seen won't get a dime from me, and that's why I'm here.

Quite frankly, I'm not pleased with where the industry is, at all. Those in the industry talk about the dealers as if they're providing a public service, when 99% of the time, they are straight up hustlers who don't know the first thing about SQ.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

capnxtreme said:


> Quite frankly, I'm not pleased with where the industry is, at all. Those in the industry talk about the dealers as if they're providing a public service, when 99% of the time, they are straight up hustlers who don't know the first thing about SQ.


For the two dozen or so privately owned shops I've ever visited, I can't say I agree with that. Of the shops I've visited, most had one or two golden ears or a sales staff with a good understanding of their products. Two that I worked for had good sales and installation staff - one was a corporation with marginal installers and clueless sales personnel "deeper [woofer] baskets make deeper bass". It's such a toss-up that you really have to judge them on a case-by-case basis. Saying that "99% of the time..." is truly unfair to the majority, and downright prejudiced against higher end-geared stores.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Fair enough.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

pikers said:


> If those channels are unauthorized, it's basically like telling the ump that you don't like three strikes and demand a fourth. It's irrelevant.


It's the same damn box, yes or no?



pikers said:


> You might end up with an amp, but most manufacturers will wash their hands of the situation.


Please cite me case on-point that supports your proposition. When you cannot, I will assume that you will have learned that you are wrong.



pikers said:


> And rightly so, since most failures tend to be attributed to grey-market items.


Tend to be attributed to grey-market items _by whom?_ By people with a financial stake in limiting those sales, perhaps? Of course, you have absolutely no way of knowing if those tendencies have any basis in reality.

You're just trying to blow smoke up our collective asses. It's kind of like the FDA throwing up scares about drugs from Canada, when it fact the only difference is the address of the distributor's warehouse. 



pikers said:


> It's all about protecting the reputation of the product. Even if you don't like the dealer, you can at least be assured that the product you're getting is legit and real. And, even if the dealer's support is worthless, the manufacturer is still there for things like this.


The manufacturer (marketer, usually; it appears that Zapco is simply rebadging an Asian-designed product here, given the deafening silence about that topic by Zapco's reps) still must abide fully by state consumer warranty laws in the state the product is used, no matter how a product was purchased, of course. Even if the company does not have an agent in that state.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

capnxtreme said:


> And he also took my quote out of context, point being, it is the END USER shelling out their hard-earned paychecks to make the paychecks for those in the racket/industry.
> 
> I am young and new to the scene, and I very quite honestly don't know why I should be appreciative of the dealers? I would be happy to listen. But every one I've ever seen won't get a dime from me, and that's why I'm here.
> 
> Quite frankly, I'm not pleased with where the industry is, at all. Those in the industry talk about the dealers as if they're providing a public service, when 99% of the time, they are straight up hustlers who don't know the first thing about SQ.


Someone needs to learn commerce 

When working in the trenches I TOOK PRIDE in working for one of the best shops in the area, we had a damn good profit margin but we had damn happy customers, if you bought something from em and it broke (**** happens) you got a loaner, no questions asked, period. You need operational or tech support, you got it, how much do you need, I have all the time int he world, That's the **** you pay for, that's the service we provided because we stuck up for what was right for the end customer and damnit we wanted equal respect from our reps.

You get what you pay for, you buy online at cost, you get at-cost treatment from me when your gem breaks, no loaner, no support for operation, it goes thru the shop, it gets fixed under warranty (and you better damn-well have your sales slip), and it goes back out the door, where it belongs.

If you would have bought it from me, we would have triaged it right there, we would have done our best to understand your issues and what may have caused them, we would show you how to prevent it from happening, we would apologize profusely, and send you out the door working ASAFP, if it breaks in the field, I'm on my way.

If you come to me beating me down to my cost, fine, you get the same service, my **** costs what it does because it comes with the balls to back up the product, the technical know-how to ensure you operate it properly, and the trust that you can take it out and operate it to it's full potential.

It's the squawkers that buy online for pennies over dealer cost then piss and moan when a dealer won't help them that causes **** like this, you get what you pay for, a dealer WILL take care of you, they have to in order to survive.

I FULLY support dealers, once as a tech-support and sales person, then as a repair facility, and still as a consumer and contractor. To say "screw the dealers" really hits home to me, because I know how much blood, sweat, and tears I put into countless HAPPY customers to gain their trust, friendship, and return business. And even though I have not been on that sales floor for 10 years I still have people come to me on the street expressing their gratitude for my support, and I still support them and readily hand out advice.

On that note, say you buy a DBX Driverack from me (a loudspeaker processor) It would already have the latest firmware, you would be instructed to bring in your laptop and possibly your whole damn system, we would set it up, we would dial it in, we would lock it out if you wanted and that lock code is my cell phone number, if you can unlock it you had the chance to call me. We will provide you with the software, and cabling if you need it, we will explain to you what happens in certain situations if "things change," a couple jokes and questions later, ha ha, har, har, hand over the money and here's my number if you have questions.

That's the way it should be 
That's the way, Uh-hu, uh-hu, I like it, uh-hu, uh-hu.....

Chad


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

envisionelec said:


> For the two dozen or so privately owned shops I've ever visited, I can't say I agree with that. Of the shops I've visited, most had one or two golden ears or a sales staff with a good understanding of their products. Two that I worked for had good sales and installation staff - one was a corporation with marginal installers and clueless sales personnel "deeper [woofer] baskets make deeper bass". It's such a toss-up that you really have to judge them on a case-by-case basis. Saying that "99% of the time..." is truly unfair to the majority, and downright prejudiced against higher end-geared stores.


Gotta choose the right shop. The guy who did my installs before I had the guts to learn to DIY knew more than most of us here. Very knowledgeable guy. Id still go to him if he had his shop just because of the work I seen him do for me, company demo cars and for the high rollers. Also most of his installs won sq contests when entered. He use to mod the zapco tech support forum but I guess he moved on. He never ripped me off or bullshitted me. He explained everything to me although I had no clue what he was talking about. Being a newbie, I listened and learned and was glad I did. 



Props to Sounds Impossible of NJ.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> The manufacturer (marketer, usually; it appears that Zapco is simply rebadging an Asian-designed product here, given the deafening silence about that topic by Zapco's reps).


This has been addressed several times already. I cannot remember the exact threads but one was when the comparisons were brought between the Zapco and Macrom piece. Robert addressed the creation of the DSP stuff at that time. He is probably tired of having to address it over and over. Like beating a dead horse.

I am pretty sure it was addressed on Zapco forums as well.IIRC

This really has been blown way out of proportion.IMO 

I have never talked to anyone that did not get full control after talking to one of the Team Z guys, a dealer or Robert, unless they had no clue what the hell they were doing in the first place. Which goes to the more money than experience side of the things.

I am very pleased with Zapco. I will be a customer for life. All my other amps have been replaced with Zapco in the vehicles I drive. 

To the dealer/shop thing. Its like anything else you have good and bad ones. Same as car dealerships, Chain Resturants ect. it sucks but its a way of life.


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> The manufacturer (marketer, usually; it appears that Zapco is simply rebadging an Asian-designed product here, given the deafening silence about that topic by Zapco's reps) still must abide fully by state consumer warranty laws in the state the product is used, no matter how a product was purchased, of course. Even if the company does not have an agent in that state.



I have gone over this several times on here and on the Zapco site. Dont really feel like going over it again and if you do a little research you will find your answer. And really this has nothing to do with the original post so didnt feel it necessary to respond. 

I have said what I have to say about this subject. I have nothing else to add.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Genxx said:


> This has been addressed several times already.


Nobody's denied it here. I'm not interested enough to seek out the information.



Genxx said:


> I have never talked to anyone that did not get full control after talking to one of the Team Z guys, a dealer or Robert, unless they had no clue what the hell they were doing in the first place.


It's the fact that they someone who overspends on a commodity product has to then go hat-in-hand to get something they already own that pisses me off, personally. 



Genxx said:


> To the dealer/shop thing. Its like anything else you have good and bad ones. Same as car dealerships, Chain Resturants ect. it sucks but its a way of life.


Car dealers (except for select marques that force their dealers to know how to treat customers) and chain restaurants are two other things I avoid whenever at all possible. My only exception is, if there's a Harrod's in an airport and it's breakfast time, I'll probably grab an English breakfast there.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

DS-21. Its clear you just want to debate with anyone at this point. I have debated with you before and I am not bored enough to do it right now. 

*If you are not interested enough to look for the info then why bring it up*. This is the point when you would be told to use the search function.J/K I will come back later and read your response. That gives you something to keep you going.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

I think a big problem is that there aren't many good shops around. In Colorado, i can only think of a couple in the entire state that even sell products I'd be interested in buying. I can see spending more for a product from a dealer IF they provide the services that you would expect from the markup, but there aren't very many shops like that and when you talk about driving over an hour to find a good one, internet sales become much more appealing. For example: If I could have bought my pioneer 880 locally and gotten a good demo on how to control everything, make adjustments, customize my settings etc. I would have paid more. So I could have either ordered it online, received it in a few days and figured things out on my own, or I could have gone to the only place that would order it for me (home of the $1 install) paid more, waited just as long, and I would have still had to figure things out on my own because nobody knew anything about the product since they didn't carry it. This would also mean that if something went wrong and I had a warranty issue, I would have had to wait for them to order another deck. 

My point is, unless you have a good shop close by, with people you know and trust, buying from a dealer usually just means you spend more.


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## gcsuper (Feb 20, 2008)

Genxx said:


> DS-21. Its clear you just want to debate with anyone at this point. I have debated with you before and I am not bored enough to do it right now.
> 
> *If you are not interested enough to look for the info then why bring it up*. This is the point when you would be told to use the search function.J/K I will come back later and read your response. That gives you something to keep you going.


I second this...


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Genxx said:


> *If you are not interested enough to look for the info then why bring it up*.


The product itself is relatively uninteresting to me, if only because I'm not going to spend that much on a commodity part. Moreover, it seems as if Kenwood has an amp that does everything this one does, for a fraction of the price, and I'm not stupid or gullible enough to think that commodities such as audio amps sound different from one another because one happens to have a higher price tag than another.

However, the fundamental idiocy of this particular company's software-hoarding policy - especially if their OEM or another marketer of the same product that wasn't designed by them anyway offers it openly on their website! - and the tortured lengths some people have gone in sad attempts to defend it (comparing the situation to a plane crash, etc.), those things I find highly amusing.


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## pikers (Oct 21, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> It's the same damn box, yes or no?


Legally or physically?



> Please cite me case on-point that supports your proposition. When you cannot, I will assume that you will have learned that you are wrong.


I've spent 12 years in the CE industry, leaving the car side about four years ago. I cannot remember specific victims (I view it as poetic justice, so they're easily forgettable), but it happens to this day on the home and car side. Of course you think that lack of a link = didn't happen, but if that's your attempt to win this argument I guess I can see why you're such good friends with all of your dealers.



> Tend to be attributed to grey-market items _by whom?_ By people with a financial stake in limiting those sales, perhaps? Of course, you have absolutely no way of knowing if those tendencies have any basis in reality.


Most service pieces I've seen from the home and car side are not purchased locally. Sure, it may be coincidence, but consistency over a decade leads me to think maybe not.



> You're just trying to blow smoke up our collective asses. It's kind of like the FDA throwing up scares about drugs from Canada, when it fact the only difference is the address of the distributor's warehouse.


I'm not dissuading you from purchasing whatever whenever. Your call. You can ignore my anecdotes if you want at your own risk.



> The manufacturer (marketer, usually; it appears that Zapco is simply rebadging an Asian-designed product here, given the deafening silence about that topic by Zapco's reps) still must abide fully by state consumer warranty laws in the state the product is used, no matter how a product was purchased, of course. Even if the company does not have an agent in that state.


Nope. Warranty of merchantability only applies to the original owner unless specified otherwise, and it's typically only 30-90 days if you're lucky. Unauthorized dealers are the first owner, therefore selling to you means you are the second (following me here?), so you get nothing but a sympathetic smile.


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## pikers (Oct 21, 2007)

chad said:


> Someone needs to learn commerce
> 
> When working in the trenches I TOOK PRIDE in working for one of the best shops in the area, we had a damn good profit margin but we had damn happy customers, if you bought something from em and it broke (**** happens) you got a loaner, no questions asked, period. You need operational or tech support, you got it, how much do you need, I have all the time int he world, That's the **** you pay for, that's the service we provided because we stuck up for what was right for the end customer and damnit we wanted equal respect from our reps.
> 
> ...


Plus muthafukkin 1

Great post.


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## hawkfan (May 1, 2006)

Man, this kinda got off topic. Maybe the somewhat inflammatory title of the thread has something to do with that. Mentioning a well respected car audio company in a negative light has the tendency to bring out the fans of that particular company. But the OP's beef seems to be over a policy, NOT the actual quality of the product. There's no need to attack the OP or anyone who agrees with his opinion. I'll be the first to say that I'd love to get my hands on a Zapco amp. I was seriously looking at the Refs myself a few years ago. But this policy of withholding NEEDED software and passwords is just ridiculous. I ask you, if a company like ED did this very same thing, what would the general opinion of this practice be? I'm sure we all know the answer to that, whether we acknowledge it openly or not.


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## hemi4me? (Apr 30, 2008)

I agree and dis agree with some of everything in the post...

First I like the idea of protecting the equipment, and making people buy it from a dealer to protect the dealers a lil. BUT the business here is car audio. People change all the time. I know I have bought amps before from a dealer, and sold it sometimes even before installation. I mean come on check the posts in the classifieds. This is a transient business... people trade, play, add, sell, buy... I mean its just the nature of the beast. They want to stop people from doing this, then there will possibly be a stopage of people buying the equipment. 

Its a doubwl edged sword for them... Heck the dealer I talked to I dont think even liked the idea of it taking long to hook up the amp, the PC, and the EQ.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

pikers said:


> Legally or physically?


Both.



pikers said:


> I guess I can see why you're such good friends with all of your dealers.


Actually, I'm good friends with a lot of merchants with whom I interact on a daily basis.



pikers said:


> Most service pieces I've seen from the home and car side are not purchased locally. Sure, it may be coincidence, but consistency over a decade leads me to think maybe not.


Love the quantitative data you present to prove your point. Oh, wait a minute...

Perhaps a question is, _how do you know where something was purchased?_ I've rarely needed anything serviced - actually, the only two pieces of gear of which I can think were a Rockford Power 300 MOSFET amp that I was given after it was well out of warranty, and an Adcom home power amp I bought from their local dealer at the time and had serviced by the factory for a DC offset issue under warranty - but I've never been asked where I bought them. When, certainly, but not where.



pikers said:


> Warranty of merchantability only applies to the original owner unless specified otherwise, and it's typically only 30-90 days if you're lucky. Unauthorized dealers are the first owner, therefore selling to you means you are the second (following me here?), so you get nothing but a sympathetic smile.


That sounds suspiciously like legal language to me. Care to actually cite some law, or do you wish to continue blowing smoke?

In truth, it depends on the state. Obviously, some are more reactionary, and others are more progressive. But generally, the black letter law is that the first person to break the factory seal is legally the first owner. Distribution agreements are not binding on end users as a general matter of law. Which is not to say that a weak-willed or ignorant customer won't be strong-armed and intimidated into surrendering her/his legal rights.

True, some unauthorized sources will open boxes and destroy serial numbers on product. That is, of course, a different situation.



hawkfan said:


> I ask you, if a company like ED did this very same thing, what would the general opinion of this practice be? I'm sure we all know the answer to that, whether we acknowledge it openly or not.


Indeed we do!



hemi4me? said:


> Its a doubwl edged sword for them... Heck the dealer I talked to I dont think even liked the idea of it taking long to hook up the amp, the PC, and the EQ.


Good point. Why should people who want cutting-edge audio systems be beholden to the forces of reaction?


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

It's the fact that they someone who overspends on a commodity product has to then go hat-in-hand to get something they already own that pisses me off, personally. 

"hat-in-hand" is a picture you have drawn in your own mind. All it takes is a simple e-mail or phone call, IF there is no CD with the amp. Eventually it will take neither of those as well. If you would like to experiment with one of the DC amps please contact me. I have a DC1000.4, 1100.1, 360.4 or 750.2 with controller and software I would be happy to send to you. 30 days long enough? Once you have used one of these amps all of your questions/concerns will be solved. Let me know.

Kirk

PS Please check who you are quoting before posting. Some how my SN got tied into a bunch of quotes. I did not post any of it.


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

Originally Posted by hemi4me? 
Its a doubwl edged sword for them... Heck the dealer I talked to I dont think even liked the idea of it taking long to hook up the amp, the PC, and the EQ. 

Good point. Why should people who want cutting-edge audio systems be beholden to the forces of reaction?


One idea for dealers is if they setup a DC system in a car to SAVE the settings in the shops PC. If they do another DC system in the same type of care just drop the saved setting straight into the second system. Done. The modern version of a deck and four?

I have e-mailed my settings to other TL owners. 

K


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## khail19 (Oct 27, 2006)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> PS Please check who you are quoting before posting. Some how my SN got tied into a bunch of quotes. I did not post any of it.


Apparently at some point, pikers felt the need to answer quotes that were directed at you, as if he _was_ you. This thread has confused the crap out of me because it's hard to tell who is responding to who.



pikers said:


> I was just speculating based on the crap I've seen over the years. Enthusiasts in a specialty retail environment tend to be price-focused time suckers more than anything else. Again, just generalizing, like you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> hat-in-hand" is a picture you have drawn in your own mind. All it takes is a simple e-mail or phone call, IF there is no CD with the amp.


Which is a simple e-mail or phone call too many. Again, making people who overspend on amplification beg to make them functional is really quite idiotic. 



AcuraTLSQ said:


> Eventually it will take neither of those as well.


Were that the case now, of course, this thread never would've happened! So basically it seems to me that what you're saying is, Zapco is being shamed (not necessarily by this thread, but by a number of other factors too, most likely) into acting reasonably.



AcuraTLSQ said:


> If you would like to experiment with one of the DC amps please contact me. I have a DC1000.4, 1100.1, 360.4 or 750.2 with controller and software I would be happy to send to you. 30 days long enough? Once you have used one of these amps all of your questions/concerns will be solved. Let me know.


Honestly, I've no interest in "experimenting" with any amps. I'm not even sure what that means, to be honest. If, DSP excluded, they sound the slightest bit different from the amps I currently possess - the aforementioned refreshed vintage RF Power 300 MOSFET, a PPI A404.2, the JL 300/4 that currently runs my daily driver's system, and a 2-channel red Sony something that came with my car and I haven't bothered to pass on - with levels matched, then the Zapco-marketed amps are incompetently designed. (All those other amps sound the same. Even the big, ugly red-with-black-X Sony one.) 

And the DSP doesn't even seem that remarkable. As Chad mentioned, in more advanced audio circles DSP is old hat by now. They don't offer much more functionality than the much cheaper Kenwood amp discussed elsewhere in this forum (KAC-X4R I believe) that seems readily available for ~$250 vs. $930 for the most closely comparable but marginally less powerful Zapco (DC360.4). And the Kenwood uses superior technology, in that it is a Class-D design and thus considerably smaller and more power efficient than Zapco's oversized and antiquated Class AB design. True, the Zapco has twice the parametric bands per channel - if my skim of their specs is accurate - but for 4x the cost one would expect a little bit more, such as TacT/Lexicon/Meridian/Audyssey-caliber automated "room" correction. At Zapco's current prices, even at their amps' excessive current size and mass, something like that would represent genuine standout value. Well, not really considering that one can buy Audyssey's most advanced current room correction, a DAC that decodes basically everything out there today transparently, and seven beefy channels of amplification for ~$500 today, but car-fi seems to be way behind the times in general. Still, I'd probably be buying them if there weren't cheaper car amps from a reputable firm that offered similar advances, or similarly priced ones that combined those advances with more modern amplification circuits in a more acceptable size...

But the bottom line is, they're just amps, albeit very expensive ones. Price tags don't impress me, unless the product is truly excellent and the price is low enough to represent obviously superior value. Eye-popping price tags only impress nouveaux riches. 

Amps are the most overrated commodity in audio today. Well, the most overrated commodity in audio after wires and digital sources, at least! 



AcuraTLSQ said:


> PS Please check who you are quoting before posting. Some how my SN got tied into a bunch of quotes. I did not post any of it.


My apologies if I misquoted you or anyone else.


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## hemi4me? (Apr 30, 2008)

I just got done messing with my DC 650... I will say that thing is pretty spectacular. I cant imagine anyone saying a Rockford, and JL is the same sound and adjustment. I have had those amps in the past and at no point did they sound this sweet and clean. I have a noisy (300C SRT8) and everyone complains about the engine noise, my last one had tons with JL, and none with Zapco.

Now to thread jack, and to get this thread turned to a lighter note... DOES ANYONE HAVE AN EXTRA TRANSMITTER LAYING AROUND? LOL


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## Dillyyo (Feb 15, 2008)

All I can say is WOW! Didn't mean to start a pissing contest. Just want to clear up some things here:

-This wasn't an amp purchase, but a DSP6 purchase.

-I have used Zapco for over 8 yrs now and have had nothing but good things to say about their products. Although highly priced and rather large, their 650's have uber amounts of internal flexibility when it comes to setups and a reason I recently bought another one for my system.

-As mentioned, I was pissed about a multitude of things as I was on a tight time frame and when I drive 30 miles to get the dsp6 and then get home to only find out I have to drive back to get a CD, the next day, it sucked. Then find out at 4am that I need a password and have to wait till the morning to get it to start setting up my system. These things along with a few others accounted for my rant on the original post.

-As i said before, Rob has been nothing but helpful, I just have a disagreement with Zapco's policy, but I understand their positioning.

BTW, I love the DSP6!


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## Dillyyo (Feb 15, 2008)

hemi4me? said:


> I just got done messing with my DC 650... I will say that thing is pretty spectacular. I cant imagine anyone saying a Rockford, and JL is the same sound and adjustment. I have had those amps in the past and at no point did they sound this sweet and clean. I have a noisy (300C SRT8) and everyone complains about the engine noise, my last one had tons with JL, and none with Zapco.
> 
> Now to thread jack, and to get this thread turned to a lighter note... DOES ANYONE HAVE AN EXTRA TRANSMITTER LAYING AROUND? LOL


I do if you need it. PM me


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> And you will have our support......hell I am hoarding some old Z series stuff my self.


Arrrrg let it go I just sold my last Z200c2-Sl new in the box
atleast it has a great new owner

As a dealer (Not a Zapco Dealer though)
I gotta say 98% of customers that walk out my door with a new product 
call me dew to "It dont work" or How do I do this???
I blew this...
on & on.. Im all for the dealers getting the call
the DC is a killer amp a lil out of my daily driver bugget range

I got the chance to hear one at Street noyz in San Diego
I got to go to that shop cuz I took the wife to sea world..lol
Great product I dont see why anyone would have a problem letting a shop that is trained in the product & uses it everyday, I would let them have a hand in my tune for sure.. at least you would get a great base line idea of what you want.. Wish such highend gear im guessing Robert gets some training to the DC Dealers..


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

Ya know..now that you think of it...I can see the software not going with the amp because an amp will still amplify without the software. What the hell was he supposed to do with the DSP-6 without the software? This is rediculous with that in mind. If you buy something specifically to make adjustments, why then, would you be unable to adjust? Kinda silly with further thought. Why doesn't Zapco consider a merchant training program? Merchants can destroy a good name.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

tr0y_audi0 said:


> As a dealer (Not a Zapco Dealer though)
> I gotta say 98% of customers that walk out my door with a new product
> call me dew to "It dont work" or How do I do this???
> I blew this...


Thank you so much for helping me prove my general point about car-fi dealers. 

Really, if *ninety-eight percent* of your customers have problems or were inadequately told how the products they bought from you work, are you sure you're in the right line of work?




tr0y_audi0 said:


> Im all for the dealers getting the call


Wait a minute. In your first bit, you practically brag about your installs being poorly-suited to your customers, and your inadequate steps to educate your customers about the products they buy, and then you _support_ putting actual power into the hands of people like you? Amazing!



tr0y_audi0 said:


> I got the chance to hear one at Street noyz in San Diego


How exactly does one "hear" an amp? In fact, if you're "hearing" the amp at all, then it's probably broken or an incompetent design!



tr0y_audi0 said:


> Great product I dont see why anyone would have a problem letting a shop that is trained in the product & uses it everyday,


You make the unwarranted assumption that there's anything difficult about sliding things around on a a screen, and the further unwarranted assumption that people in a shop will actually know how set up a system properly because they happen to use expensive stuff every day. You're in a shop, apparently: care to tell us what your measurement setup is?


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## Scott P (Sep 9, 2007)

I'm not reading this whole waste of time. But here is a thought. I don't care how much the average DIY'er pisses and moans at what i am about to say, but the simple truth is that the vast majority (including on this site) of DIY'ers are morons that have no business working on an automobile. Are there exceptions? Yes, but not nearly the number that you think.

The way i equate the whole buying online from the cheapest wholesaler and installing it yourself to any of my customers is to liken it to this example: you have a major heart attack, get rushed to the hospital, and then proceed to tell the doctor, "Listen I understand you are trying to HELP me, but I feel that your whole profession is a scam, and I am going to go home and fix this myself." What do you think the doctor is going to say to you? He's going to call you a dumbass.

Face it those that complain and argue the loudest on here and for that matter anywhere, most often don't know what they are talking about. Is zapco in the right to not include the software with there amps or processors? As a Industry veteran who has seen what happens when morons get ahold of tools that are too powerful for them, I say hell yeah they are doing the right thing. Is comparing a kenwood amp and a zapco amp a proper comparison just because they make power? Hell no and if you haven't figured out why then there is no reason to even try and break down each post on here, line by line, because the insipid ranting that will follow will be further proof that you are merely trying to convince yourselves of your weak and unstable point. 

Furthermore in general terms. WTF is with so many people whining lately that company X is out to rip them of, when most everytime the original "victim" turns out to be someone that A. shouldn't have been messing with stuff themselves, B. Was too lazy to use the resources provided to the by the manufacturer of the product, and C. Is so naive that they think posting an obscure website is going the remedy their error?

I knew there was areason I like ECA. . .


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Scott P said:


> The way i equate the whole buying online from the cheapest wholesaler and installing it yourself to any of my customers is to liken it to this example: you have a major heart attack, get rushed to the hospital, and then proceed to tell the doctor, "Listen I understand you are trying to HELP me, but I feel that your whole profession is a scam, and I am going to go home and fix this myself." What do you think the doctor is going to say to you? He's going to call you a dumbass.


Though I somewhat agree with what you've said, this particular section is the worst analogy I've ever read. 

There should be no justification needed for why. Seriously.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Scott P said:


> I'm not reading this whole waste of time. But here is a thought. I don't care how much the average DIY'er pisses and moans at what i am about to say, but the simple truth is that the vast majority (including on this site) of DIY'ers are morons that have no business working on an automobile. Are there exceptions? Yes, but not nearly the number that you think.
> 
> The way i equate the whole buying online from the cheapest wholesaler and installing it yourself to any of my customers is to liken it to this example: you have a major heart attack, get rushed to the hospital, and then proceed to tell the doctor, "Listen I understand you are trying to HELP me, but I feel that your whole profession is a scam, and I am going to go home and fix this myself." What do you think the doctor is going to say to you? He's going to call you a dumbass.
> 
> ...


Golf clap...

Ge0


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> Thank you so much for helping me prove my general point about car-fi dealers.
> 
> Really, if *ninety-eight percent* of your customers have problems or were inadequately told how the products they bought from you work, are you sure you're in the right line of work?
> 
> ...


Im not going to get into a internet bully match.. anyway
I tell all my customers how it works & will install & tune a system
If a customer buys a system & dose not have us install it 
I can tell them all I know about the product but if they dont know WTH they are doing its wont work right, my shop is very help ful to anyone that comes in I will help them if they get the system from us or ebay..
I know the DC amp is a great product iv messed with them you can hear the difrence, feel free to stop by my shop & enjoy everything we have to offer
im no master installer but I do a very good job, I enjoy what I do & I enjoy helping other learn more about SQ insted of just getting some gear in the car or making it loud..
Thanks enjoy bashing good shops on the internet..

http:
http:


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Scott P said:


> I'm not reading this whole waste of time.


So, your mind is insufficiently developed to understand basic human logic? Let me guess: you voted for Bush, twice. (Or even worse, you didn't even bother to go to the polls.)



Scott P said:


> But here is a thought. I don't care how much the average DIY'er pisses and moans at what i am about to say, but the simple truth is that the vast majority (including on this site) of DIY'ers are morons that have no business working on an automobile. Are there exceptions? Yes, but not nearly the number that you think.


True or not, that's quite irrelevant. The flip side is I would say that most installers are utterly incapable of conceiving the more advanced installs - or even simple and elegant ones like my daily driver: how many two-bit installers would think to use small wideband drivers, when none have even been available to them since JBL discontinued its 2.5" coax) contemplated here. Moreover, certainly most have never touched equipment in the areas that matter (MLS measurement software and setups such as FuzzMeasure, Arta, and Clio; Vifa/Peerless wideband drivers; B&C and Seas Excel midwoofers; Aura, Peerless, and Dayton subwoofers; etc.) that are routinely discussed around here.



Scott P said:


> The way i equate the whole buying online from the cheapest wholesaler and installing it yourself to *any of my customers*


Say no more, say no more.  



Scott P said:


> you have a major heart attack, get rushed to the hospital, and then proceed to tell the doctor, "Listen I understand you are trying to HELP me, but I feel that your whole profession is a scam, and I am going to go home and fix this myself."


Dude, sorry, but you're not a doctor. Not even ****ing close. 

If it weren't for the plane crash lawsuit "analogy" put forward earlier, this one would take the cake for most idiotic rant on this thread! 



Scott P said:


> Is zapco in the right to not include the software with there amps or processors? As a Industry veteran who has seen what happens when morons get ahold of tools that are too powerful for them, I say hell yeah they are doing the right thing.


Of course you do. Those forced billable hours add up, after all. (And sure, some people would prefer the shop do it, but that's not the point at all.)



Scott P said:


> Is comparing a kenwood amp and a zapco amp a proper comparison just because they make power? Hell no


So now some little shopkeeper thinks that he knows more about the audibility of sonic differences in electronic components than multiple learned authors who have conducted actual research that has been publish it in peer-reviewed scientific/engineering journals such as the JAES? (Hell, do you even _know what "JAES" stands for?_) Methinks somebody's getting too big for his britches!



tr0y_audi0 said:


> Thanks enjoy bashing good shops on the internet..


I did nothing of the sort. I merely pointed out the rather obvious logical conclusions any reasonable person would have derived from the words you wrote. Perhaps next time, write more carefully.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Scott P said:


> I'm not reading this whole waste of time.


That's very evident by the fact that there were some here that made excellent valid points for supporting dealers, but also valid points as to why the end user should receive the software. And you chose to ignore those points.

Chad


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> How exactly does one "hear" an amp? In fact, if you're "hearing" the amp at all, then it's probably broken or an incompetent design!


_That_ is what I call a **** response. Don't be so ridiculous.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

This should be worth the price of admission


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

chad said:


> This should be worth the price of admission


Nah. Sometimes it's better to just let the scientifically ignorant wallow in their own filth. If someone repeatedly chooses blind faith over rational science in an area as meaningless in world-historical terms as audio amplifiers, then s/he's simply in a different (and lesser) world from educated and thoughtful people.


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## Scott P (Sep 9, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Though I somewhat agree with what you've said, this particular section is the worst analogy I've ever read.
> 
> There should be no justification needed for why. Seriously.


I agree it's a horrible analogy, but unfortunately dealing with internet consumer bases merits a grossly over exagerated exclamation to properly drive the point home that I'm not in business to hand out freebies to someone that ignored the free advise they were given. 



Chad said:


> That's very evident by the fact that there were some here that made excellent valid points for supporting dealers, but also valid points as to why the end user should receive the software. And you chose to ignore those points.


I didn't ignore them, as i venture to bet they are the same valid points that have been brought up in related discussions before. I completely understand the logic of why the software should be included and and why it is not. These aren't new points though, and the valid ones that have been made don't need 20+ pages to make them. So yeah sifting through the thread to find a few points that I've likely already heard would constitute a waste of time.


On to DS-21's comments:

1. See above for why most of this thread is a waste of time.

2. I have to point you are dead wrong. I would have to say it the very heart of the matter as to the relevance of the original post. You wouldn't give a suicidal person a loaded gun would you? Then why would it be irrelevant that most DIY'ers are not capable of using the software needed to operate a DSP-6 or DC Ref. amps correctly and safely? It sounds like, to me, that would be the very reason not to include it in the package, and leave it to Dealer disscretion as to who gets their own copy.

3. Find me a customer of mine that I've wronged or ripped off. We'll both be searching for a long time buddy.

4. Again see above.

5. First, I'm not a Zapco Dealer, nor am I likely to carry them any time soon. That said, if any amp is intalled at our shop tuning is included in the install. If someone wants me to go through and tune there system that they got and/or had installed elsewhere I would gladly do so as work order unto itself. That is how business's work. I'm not going to ignore 10 other paying customers just to go sit in your car for however long and tune it for free. Sorry, life just doesn't work that way.

6. ok the coup de grace: you think you are going to tell me that you are smarter than me and I have no validity because you reference your little society that cares as little about automotive subject matter as they do? Perhaps you might want to open your eyes and start looking at the word in a more multi dimensional view. In fact I think I may have to spell this out to you. Let's breakdown why a kenwood amp cannot be compared the Zapco DC Ref Amps. What do you get when you buy a kenwood amp authorized? and what do you get when buy a Zapco amp authorized. You know the answer no matter the amount of denial you shovel out. The Zapco amp out performs your kenwood amp in almost every technical aspect, but wait it comes with lauded support from zapco as well, and a undeniable competition track record reiterating there quality. Much better than that snazzy box and waiting on hold have a tech support read you the manual when you messed it up. The point is, you are trying to prove your intelligence to the wrong person. But you are trying hard, let me know how that works out for you cool guy. . . .


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Scott P said:


> Let's breakdown why a kenwood amp cannot be compared the Zapco DC Ref Amps. What do you get when you buy a kenwood amp authorized? and what do you get when buy a Zapco amp authorized. You know the answer no matter the amount of denial you shovel out. The Zapco amp out performs your kenwood amp in almost every technical aspect, but wait it comes with lauded support from zapco as well, and a undeniable competition track record reiterating there quality. Much better than that snazzy box and waiting on hold have a tech support read you the manual when you messed it up.


Im with you in many aspects but I disagree here. I stated that I learned a lot from my old installer/shop before I learned to work on cars myself and I have and did blow an amp I had professionally installed because of my ignorance. So that I agree happens and with a pricey amp like the zapcos, I understand why they may want to withhold the software.

I also have run zapco amps for years. My studios lasted 7 years and I sold them for like $100 less than I originally paid. Now I own the kenwood kac-x4r ds21 brought up (and zapco speakers) and they are very comparable when you consider more than reputation of companies. Sure for $250 unauthorized ($400 at a store) you dont get a great, if any warranty but you can buy two replacement amps if they do malfunction at the cost of the original Zapco. 

Considering what an amplifier does, how are they not comparable? Sure one is kenwood and has the rep of being average at best and one is zapco and has the rep of being one of the best. One is cheaper with little support but great features for the price, one is much more expensive with great support and even better features. But theyre both amplifiers with on board dsp. The topologies are different and thats another pros and cons that come out fairly even. Most arguments will become subjective. 

If the Kenwood x4r had, lets say, image dynamics name on it, the internet would be going nuts. You bet it would be the same amp but with a better rep and customer support, but it would also be more expensive. Kenwood has the resources to mass produce these and if you know what you're doing and installing yourself, the internet market allows you to get them 70% off the retail. Objectively, I dont see how they're not comparable. Even if "you get what you pay for" motto remains true, the cost of the Kenwoods are cheap enough to risk it. I know mine are going just fine and sound very similar to every other amp I have owned, including zapco. They're just more efficient and cheaper plus have good DSP. 

If it was the same or a little more money, Id choose zapco any day. Buyers all have different priority's. Most people who buy an amp on ebay usually know theyre on their own. No matter the brand.


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## pikers (Oct 21, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> Perhaps a question is, _how do you know where something was purchased?_ I've rarely needed anything serviced - actually, the only two pieces of gear of which I can think were a Rockford Power 300 MOSFET amp that I was given after it was well out of warranty, and an Adcom home power amp I bought from their local dealer at the time and had serviced by the factory for a DC offset issue under warranty - but I've never been asked where I bought them. When, certainly, but not where.


It depends upon whether or not the servicing entity requires a sales receipt or not. This is of course why unauthorized dealers provide "their own warranty" which is a euphemism for "Send it back to us since we hold the warranty rights, not you."



> That sounds suspiciously like legal language to me. Care to actually cite some law, or do you wish to continue blowing smoke?


You answered your own question below...



> In truth, it depends on the state. Obviously, some are more reactionary, and others are more progressive.


Yeah, progressive sucks in every case but scan rates. What "progressive" means is that rights of businesses are overlooked in favor of whatever the hell the consumer wants. I'm sure this is a blue state favorite practice.



> But generally, the black letter law is that the first person to break the factory seal is legally the first owner. Distribution agreements are not binding on end users as a general matter of law. Which is not to say that a weak-willed or ignorant customer won't be strong-armed and intimidated into surrendering her/his legal rights.
> 
> True, some unauthorized sources will open boxes and destroy serial numbers on product. That is, of course, a different situation.


We apparently do not disagree here.



> Good point. Why should people who want cutting-edge audio systems be beholden to the forces of reaction?


It's called playing the game. You may think there's no reason to sit a certain red light in your area, but run it with a camera and watch what you get in the mail.

Business relationships must respect the manufacturer, dealer, and consumer. In that order. Why? The manufacturer first must choose dealers that they deem will do the customer the best service; it isn't always accurate, but that's why dealers mysteriously lose lines every day.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Scott P said:


> 2. I have to point you are dead wrong. I would have to say it the very heart of the matter as to the relevance of the original post. You wouldn't give a suicidal person a loaded gun would you?


OK, now you hold the dishonor of having written the most utterly absurd analogy on this thread. There is absolutely no equivalence whatsoever between a suicidal individual and somebody tuning her/his audio system. In trying to make the analogy, you only make yourself look like an addled, deluded twit.



Scott P said:


> Then why would it be irrelevant that most DIY'ers are not capable of using the software needed to operate a DSP-6 or DC Ref. amps correctly and safely?


My ass they couldn't! Grow up. It's a bunch of goddamn sliders in a GUI. Anyone who can operate this website can operate it. This stuff isn't rocket science, or even as "difficult" as learning to ride a bike or drive a stick shift. Making seem all voodoo and mystical might earn you gullible people's money, but reality is quite otherwise.



Scott P said:


> That said, if any amp is intalled at our shop tuning is included in the install. If someone wants me to go through and tune there system that they got and/or had installed elsewhere I would gladly do so as work order unto itself. That is how business's work. I'm not going to ignore 10 other paying customers just to go sit in your car for however long and tune it for free. Sorry, life just doesn't work that way.


I don't know what the hell you're responding to here, but it's quite ironic considering my thrust of general ignorance and incompetence amongst your caste and the whole notion of freeing customers from having to rely on dealers by providing them with the software to use the thing they bought and paid for. 

Of course if someone trusts you to touch her/his car, you have the right to compensation for your billable hours. Nobody disputed that. That said, since you put it in terms of "you" and "I," let me be frank: given the wild-eyed ranting you've done here, you would [edit]not[/edit] be granted the opportunity to sit in any car of mine and learn about modern approaches to audio.



Scott P said:


> 6. ok the coup de grace: you think you are going to tell me that you are smarter than me and I have no validity because you reference your little society


That little society is, of course, the _Audio Engineering Society._ I figured you wouldn't know what it was. And amps are amps in any context, be it home, car, PA, studio, etc. 



Scott P said:


> that cares as little about automotive subject matter as they do?


So, now engineers from Harman, et al., don't care about mobile audio? Quite the contrary, of course. After all, it's only the contracts with automakers for OEM systems that keeps most of the audio industry alive! (And some of those OEM systems are getting better than I - and certainly you - could do, except arguably in the extreme LF.)



Scott P said:


> What do you get when you buy a kenwood amp authorized?


In the case of the one I mentioned above, a gain box that's compact, reasonably priced, and ready-to-use out of the box.



Scott P said:


> and what do you get when buy a Zapco amp authorized.


In the case of the one I mentioned above, a gain box that's large, very expensive, and apparently has some password ******** hoops you have to go through just to be able to use it.



Scott P said:


> The Zapco amp out performs your kenwood amp in almost every technical aspect,


That is an assertion without proof, of course. Show me comparative measurements, relate them to known audibility thresholds, and then I'll give a damn.



Scott P said:


> but wait it comes with lauded support from zapco as well,


Seems to me you have to beg just to be able to use the damn thing. I wouldn't call that "lauded support."

And seriously, it's *an amp.* Anyone who needs "support" on *an amp* is probably not mentally competent to drive a motor vehicle.



Scott P said:


> and a undeniable competition track record reiterating there quality.


"Competition" means nothing, of course.



Scott P said:


> The point is, you are trying to prove your intelligence to the wrong person.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

Well it's good to know that the much needed software doesn't come with the product and that it's a hassle to get it. That really makes me want to run out and buy one. Good job Zapco/


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

I believe we could sum this up rather simply.

Zapco believes the vast majority of its customers are too ignorant or stupid to uses its products. It believes dealers are better placed to use the said products.

We take some umbrage at this, because this site was ORIGINALLY geared towards people who were going to run active setups, and had a degree of nous as to what this would entail.

Worse, many of us have been DRIVEN here, by an incompetent installer(s), whose only real skill is being able to swap out head units, speakers at a relatively fast pace. They have little or no experience with putting speakers in unconventional places, let alone knowing how to use an active setup. Hence most of us don't require or desire shops to "support us".

Dealers who come to this thread, in support of their skills, should take stock, that, this customer base has had anything but, a "quality" experience with an installer.
This site is loaded with some very adverse customers.

Two very different perceptions.

I suggest the reality maybe somewhere in between both extremes.

In the mean time, if you fit the bill of Zapco's perceived customer base, then by all means purchase from them.


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

that is an extremely well balanced and reasonable post that seems to understand both sides of take into account the multi faceted nature of the hobby... well done, except that kind of balance and reason doesn't seem to have any place in this thread



Abmolech said:


> I believe we could sum this up rather simply.
> 
> Zapco believes the vast majority of its customers are too ignorant or stupid to uses its products. It believes dealers are better placed to use the said products.
> 
> ...


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## Attack eagle (Nov 18, 2006)

Scott P said:


> 2. I have to point you are dead wrong. I would have to say it the very heart of the matter as to the relevance of the original post. You wouldn't give a suicidal person a loaded gun would you?


yes. I would.


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## Arc (Aug 25, 2006)

I can understand Zapco's point of not including the software for the amp, it is not needed for the amp to work. If someone bought the amp for its DSP availability the dealer would know, and the software would be provided. For the average Joe that buys the amp for its power and aesthetics, they don't need the software.

I can also understand the frustration that the end user has when they buy a used or gray market item, that didn't come with the software.

I support the dealers and their availability for answers and help. Have I met one that would suit my personal needs? No. But that is why I went DIY, but for the general public most dealers are fine. There are exceptions as always. 

I don't see why this thread is 4 pages long, there is nothing more to argue about. There are people that will refuse to see Zapco's position or even give it any thought and continue to bash them for it. There are people that are the opposite. This will get no where.

DS-21, what is your specific reason for dragging this out? You have no interest in the DC amps, you were even offered the line to demo and you refused. I don't see any reason for you to be in here continuing to argue with everyone in here. You are set in you views, thats fine but don't push them on anyone else.


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## hemi4me? (Apr 30, 2008)

Hey I like this thread LOL

I keep on Jacking it, and getting good info on pm

Here is my set up

Dynaudio 3 way in front 340
ID 10" infinite baffle rear
ZAPCO 650.6 DC amp
DRC up front

My front stage does this sound right? 

input sensitivity 5.00
+2 +4 +6 +5 +3 +3 +2 +2 +2 +3
Center freq 60 80 100 250 500 1000 2000 4000 8000 16000

Q 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1


xover 70hz 24db (LW xover)

Q bass freq 80hz Q 2.0 EQ +3





Who knows maybe with all the Zapco lovers in this thread I will gain some info about the amp I have!


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

Arc said:


> I can understand Zapco's point of not including the software for the amp, it is not needed for the amp to work. If someone bought the amp for its DSP availability the dealer would know, and the software would be provided. *For the average Joe that buys the amp for its power and aesthetics, they don't need the software.*
> I can also understand the frustration that the end user has when they buy a used or gray market item, that didn't come with the software.
> 
> I support the dealers and their availability for answers and help. Have I met one that would suit my personal needs? No. But that is why I went DIY, but for the general public most dealers are fine. There are exceptions as always.
> ...


And how would they set the gains?


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> Which is a simple e-mail or phone call too many. Again, making people who overspend on amplification beg to make them functional is really quite idiotic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Accepted.

K


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## Arc (Aug 25, 2006)

ClinesSelect said:


> And how would they set the gains?


Not 100% but isn't the gain adjustment the same as a regular amp? If not I apologize and rescind my comment.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

Arc said:


> Not 100% but isn't the gain adjustment the same as a regular amp? If not I apologize and rescind my comment.


Its built into the DSP.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

envisionelec said:


> _That_ is what I call a **** response. Don't be so ridiculous.


Feel free to swear here. This pain in the ass has a number of people annoyed.

Ge0


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

Ge0 said:


> Feel free to swear here. This pain in the ass has a number of people annoyed.
> 
> Ge0


Well, I have a professional appearance to upkeep. But the original word rhymed with duck lard.


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## Arc (Aug 25, 2006)

ClinesSelect said:


> Its built into the DSP.


Well then, it appears as it is an integral piece of software. I still see Zapco's stance, but now I disagree if you can't set your gains without it.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Dillyyo said:


> As far as my stance with the policy, as a multiple business owner, I understand the premise of the practice, but just disagree.  As a dealer, I wouldn't go telling some 20 yr old he can't buy the farrari because he probably isn't skilled enough to handle it at limits. Thats not my place and kind of sounds like how a goverment would intercede in peoples lives....for their own safety. If someone F's up their 1000 dollar amp or whatever else, then it's on them. Just like if I open a Zapco amp and screw around inside and mess it up....my fault.


Beautifully said. This would have been a nice ending paragraph. I believe the manufacturer is out of place to control parts of the product after the good is sold. It's a simple matter of ownership. Any sort of links you hold on something that is no longer rightfully yours because you believe the end user in incompetent is borderline elitist too. 

I've seen more than one comment that this practice protects the industry? What exactly? I think a lot of us learned by breaking things when we were little and we continue to do so. If the diyer can't get his hands on something to figure it out than the knowledge will completely shift to the dealer in time. That is anti-diy imo.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> I just think we need to start working towards a common goal or we are all going to be missing out on a passion that we all share.


Then stop taking it upon yourselves to determine what the consumer can and can't do with their gear. This isn't "car audio according to Zapco". You guys are sounding like Henry Ford, or worse, CARB.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

Hey...I said this stuff 3 pages ago....oh well. Zapco gots nice stuff. I think they should train their dealers (I said that 6 pages ago(roughly)). I think dealers should use a bit of insight into a customers wanton desires. I think the end user should specifically state what he wants. I also think the dealer should teach the end user what he needs to know.



Arc said:


> I can understand Zapco's point of not including the software for the amp, it is not needed for the amp to work. If someone bought the amp for its DSP availability the dealer would know, and the software would be provided. For the average Joe that buys the amp for its power and aesthetics, they don't need the software.
> 
> I can also understand the frustration that the end user has when they buy a used or gray market item, that didn't come with the software.
> 
> ...


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Abmolech said:


> Worse, many of us have been DRIVEN here, by an incompetent installer(s), whose only real skill is being able to swap out head units, speakers at a relatively fast pace. They have little or no experience with putting speakers in unconventional places, let alone knowing how to use an active setup. Hence most of us don't require or desire shops to "support us".


Not only that, but also I think most of us have been driven here by the absolute abysmal quality and value-for-money of products (especially speakers) marketed to car-fi through dealers who either don't know enough or don't care enough to effectively communicate with people who want to as accurately as possible reproduce music in a small, moving listening room. There are a very few cutting-edge stuff offered through car-fi sources exclusively and at reasonable cost compared to going through a Madisound or PE for a functionally identical variant. In fact, JBL's WGTi-series subwoofer is the only such exception that springs to mind.



AcuraTLSQ said:


> Borrow one. Test it.


What will that do for anyone, except waste our time and give FedEx a few bucks?

I do not own a Powercube, nor am I interested in procuring one and learning how to use it, so I wouldn't be able to get meaningful objective data on the amp.

I can d/l the software from that Asian site somebody linked to, supra, and I assume the DSP will faithfully follow the instructions I give it.

A level-matched blind subjective comparative audition would only tell me one of three things:
1) It's a well-designed amp, like the vast majority of amps out there today. (i.e. no sonic difference) 
2) It's a broken sample of a well-designed amp
3) It's an incompetently-designed amp.

And anything less than the above sort of listening test ...sorry, my time's too valuable for meaningless activities. That said, if someone wishes me to write meaningless purple prose a la Stereophile or TAS, I will be happy to do so (under a pseudonym) for a rate of 500USD per hour of listening time plus 10USD per word, 1500 word minimum. One hundred USD extra for each meaningless audiophool stupidities, e.g. "PRAT."




AcuraTLSQ said:


> Link me. I need some updated home audio.


Google Onkyo 705. eCost.com has the Onkyo 805, which is much bigger and heavier (both good things, since they use conventional amps and PS's) for $575 plus shipping.

That said, the Onkyo does have one annoying ergonomic quirk that led me to spend significantly more for a Denon receiver (Onkyo, Denon, and NAD are the only three marques using Audyssey's MultEQ XT right now) in order to get Audyssey's "flat" curve instead of their rolled-off highs house curve, one must turn on THX re-EQ and turn it off again every time one turns on the receiver. So if you're as petty and willful as I, you might want to look at the Denon 2800-series and up. 



Arc said:


> DS-21, what is your specific reason for dragging this out?.


It is a philosophical argument, not one about some specific product that, you are correct, I don't give a damn about.



pikers said:


> It depends upon whether or not the servicing entity requires a sales receipt or not.


Legally, in most states any valid receipt will do, so long as the holder of the receipt purchased it in new, sealed condition. (Obviously, products that have been opened and tampered with, i.e. serial numbers removed, have the same legal standing as products sent to some joker to "mod" by replacing perfectly functional caps with expensive snake oil, etc.) Not that with some companies an end-user might have to resort to legal means to enforce her/his rights, but those rights are there.



pikers said:


> Yeah, progressive sucks in every case but scan rates.


Hmmm....how did I know that you were a political neanderthal even before you came out and said it explicitly?



pikers said:


> What "progressive" means is that rights of businesses are overlooked in favor of whatever the hell the consumer wants.


Actually, what "progressive" means, per the Oxford English Dictionary in relevant part, is the following:


OED said:


> 2. Characterized by continuous progress or advancement.
> a. Of persons, communities, etc.: developing, changing, progressing; esp. advancing in or gaining some desirable attribute or quality; improving, or able to improve.
> b. Of circumstances, attributes, ideas, conditions, etc.: characterized by, relating to, or involving gradual change or advancement, esp. for the better; growing, increasing, developing; marked by continuous improvement.





pikers said:


> I'm sure this is a blue state favorite practice.


Yes, the civilized bicoastal states with vibrant and diverse economies that subsidize the lifestyle of the decaying hinterlands with their tax dollars tend generally to be more consumer friendly than flyover country, that is true.



pikers said:


> We apparently do not disagree here.


Just to be clear, you are conceding the point that "black letter law is that the first person to break the factory seal is legally the first owner. Distribution agreements are not binding on end users as a general matter of law. Which is not to say that a weak-willed or ignorant customer won't be strong-armed and intimidated into surrendering her/his legal rights." IOW, unless an "unauthorized" merchant *physically opens the product packaging and tampers with the product in some way,* there is no legal difference between it and the same box purchased from an "authorized" merchant.

That is, of course, quite a flip-flop (albeit one in the correct direction) from your previous position.



pikers said:


> It's called playing the game. You may think there's no reason to sit a certain red light in your area, but run it with a camera and watch what you get in the mail.


Again, your side seems to have a gigantic problem with analogies. (Bad analogies often occur when people attempt to defend and justify idiocy.) Do you not understand the massive fundamental difference between private, voluntary, lawful activity and law-breaking?



pikers said:


> Business relationships must respect the manufacturer, dealer, and consumer. In that order.


I thought you were a conservative. Apparently I was wrong. The mode of economic organization and interest intermediation you propose in fact has a well-known name: fascism.


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## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

Wow.. DS-21 you are starting to resemble my friends wife! You feel the need to argue every single nuance you disagree with..

Can we get the mods to change your alias to "Negative Nancy" ?


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Hell DS-21 has not spoke his mind in awhile around here. Lets just let him get off on doing it for a little bit. He likes to debate til the horse is beat to death but he is fun to read sometimes.

Point is if you want an amp with a built-in DSP you got three choices so far in this thread. From reading a couple reviews of the Zapco and Kenwood the Zapco has a little more flexible DSP and a different amp topology and better customer service. The 3rd one no one has even gotten to see or check out other than the internet. 

So there are your 3 choices or you can debate it out with DS-21. Trust me once he gets going he usually wins do to it takes to much energy to discuss the same thing for 3+days for the normal person.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Genxx said:


> From reading a couple reviews of the Zapco and Kenwood the Zapco has a little more flexible DSP and a different amp topology and better customer service. The 3rd one no one has even gotten to see or check out other than the internet.


How can forcing a customer to beg for permission to use a product that s/he paid dearly for possibly be considered "better customer service?"

Seems to me that's abysmal customer service, as compared to the typical mega-brand's indifferent customer service.


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

DS- I won't ever really argue with you your posts are too long and I have ADD, but I will answer this one.

This is an easy answer - this is better customer service because when someone has to do this they begin to recognize the value of the product and they are fortunate to be given access. 

just like if the IRS called you and thanked you for paying taxes and then said for doing that you get to ride in an F16 (Not Fly, Ride )




DS-21 said:


> How can forcing a customer to beg for permission to use a product that s/he paid dearly for possibly be considered "better customer service?"
> 
> Seems to me that's abysmal customer service, as compared to the typical mega-brand's indifferent customer service.


----------



## PaulD (Nov 16, 2006)

we have codes on stuff we sell at work .... and all I can say is thank god. You would not believe the knuckleheads that call our customer service dept with just idiotic questions - and some are "professional integrators". Some of the codes allow you to do stuff that if it's wrong, it will have to be sent back to us for reloading/repair.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

PaulD said:


> we have codes on stuff we sell at work .... and all I can say is thank god. You would not believe the knuckleheads that call our customer service dept with just idiotic questions - and some are "professional integrators". Some of the codes allow you to do stuff that if it's wrong, it will have to be sent back to us for reloading/repair.


Then charge extra for repair, it's not your fault the user was not able to keep the unit in one piece. One of the main problems here is that a warranty is not what it is supposed to be. Manufacturers/shops should not take a unit back unless there was a manufacturer's defect involved. 

Costco style welcome backs are a supplier side novelty that I believe it's biting the manufacturers back. It's a way to encourage sells that increases costs. 

Bring warranty back in the real sense and charge extra for repair or install costs. This funky way of "protecting" the consumer is an attempt to force features and costs on him. The buyer can no longer purchase an item but rather a package. 

Why not market both? You can have an ebay store selling an amplifier at low cost and the dealer selling the package. That is, unless you believe that everybody will buy the ebay goods, and you proceed to force the consumer to buy a package. Market it as such is all I got to say.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> No software because they dont come with it. No password because that was what was put into place to help our Dealers. Yes the password is out there and yes you could have gotten it and most likely the software too. We have to support our dealers because they are the ones that are keeping us in business. That is why we fight internet sales as much as possible and that is why we dont give the software out with every unit. We rely on the dealers to support us so we give them as much support as we can.
> 
> Im sorry you ran into these issues. But coming on a public forum and calling a manufacture childish.......that is just sad. Is this what our industry has come to?


I agree with the thinking here. There are reasons to shop at a dealer. I'm sure 6spd would have helped you out though too, since he was basically your dealer, had you contacted him?


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> its not included with every DC we sell. The dealer gets a copy and he can request a copy for his customer if he feels he has the knowledge to adjust the amplifier. I had people calling trying to adjust these amps that did not even know what a crossover is.....should that guy have this much adjustment in the palm of his hand. When I tell a guy you have to Right click and he says "How do I do that" Is that a guy you think should be using this stuff.
> 
> No we are not trying to screw anyone. We are trying to save people from themselves. If you wanted to buy DC and you have the knowledge of what to do with it the dealer will probably not have a problem with giving you the software, just like the OP did. He got the software......the dealer forgot to give him the password. I am assuming he called us yesterday....well if I was in the office I would have talked to him and since i knew the situation I would have given him the password.
> 
> ...


This isn't a new thing, and it's not like Zapco is alone here. I completely support the dealer on this one. (Though i plan on getting some DC series for myself later and this is good to know.) Many specialized dealers do stuff like this, and it absolutely makes sense. I'm sure this has been addressed already, but I didn't feel like reading through 100 pages to get there.

Universal Remote Control is a prime example. No software is included with their complete control series remotes. You must have an installer or dealer login to download the software. This prevents some goofball from buying it online, attempting to program it himself. Failing miserably and then expecting the manufacturer to support it for free. It's absolutely saving people from themselves.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

And yet you an buy a Logitech remote and set it up yourself AND they'll help you out if you get stuck. What a novel idea.


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## hawkfan (May 1, 2006)

quality_sound said:


> And yet you an buy a Logitech remote and set it up yourself AND they'll help you out if you get stuck. What a novel idea.


Excellent point. It's kinda ironic that so many posters seem to agree with Zapco on this one. This is D...I...Y...mobileaudio afterall. It's just like I said earlier, if ED had this same policy...


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> And yet you an buy a Logitech remote and set it up yourself AND they'll help you out if you get stuck. What a novel idea.


You're comparing a Pinto to a Ferrari. The Harmony remotes FAR pale in comparison to the URC has to offer. Also, URC has the MX-810 which programs like the Harmony and comes with software. It doesn't do custom macros, variables, or anything remotely close to the rest of the complete control and neither do ANY of the Harmony remotes. The Harmony was MADE to be programmed by the user, and the software is designed around that idea. The URC Complete control remotes, like the Zapco gear was not designed for use by the typical consumer.

Have some idea what you are talking about before get into this, please.


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

Did everyone that did not read through at least the first 5 pages miss the point where I said that I *would* give the software out......for free.....It just does not come with the amplifier or processor. 

Just thought I would pipe in and re-state that little bit of info.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Did everyone that did not read through at least the first 5 pages miss the point where I said that I *would* give the software out......for free.....It just does not come with the amplifier or processor.
> 
> Just thought I would pipe in and re-state that little bit of info.


I don't think that anybody who jumped in has read it to be honest... that's why I gave up


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

We are totally missing the point. It is a signal processor that has zero functionality without the software. It is literally a box in your signal for no reason. It isn't an amp. Nobody should buy a signal processor and not get to process signals. It's retarded.




cvjoint said:


> Then charge extra for repair, it's not your fault the user was not able to keep the unit in one piece. One of the main problems here is that a warranty is not what it is supposed to be. Manufacturers/shops should not take a unit back unless there was a manufacturer's defect involved.
> 
> Costco style welcome backs are a supplier side novelty that I believe it's biting the manufacturers back. It's a way to encourage sells that increases costs.
> 
> ...


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

havok20222 said:


> This isn't a new thing, and it's not like Zapco is alone here. I completely support the dealer on this one.


Let me guess...audio salesman?



havok20222 said:


> Universal Remote Control is a prime example. No software is included with their complete control series remotes. You must have an installer or dealer login to download the software. This prevents some goofball from buying it online, attempting to program it himself. Failing miserably and then expecting the manufacturer to support it for free. It's absolutely saving people from themselves.


********.

Follow the link on that page, and you will note that the company appropriately includes "internet retailer" and "online auction" as valid points-of-purchase in their drop-down menu. Moreover, information about the retailer is optional. IOW, so long as one purchases one of these remotes from a source that does not tamper with them by removing the serial number, you're good to go.



havok20222 said:


> You're comparing a Pinto to a Ferrari. The Harmony remotes FAR pale in comparison to the URC has to offer. Also, URC has the MX-810 which programs like the Harmony and comes with software. It doesn't do custom macros, variables, or anything remotely close to the rest of the complete control and neither do ANY of the Harmony remotes.


Perhaps, I don't know. My old Harmony 676 is more than adequate for my needs. The software is extremely easy to use. Get a new receiver, new TV, new subwoofer EQ, or whatever, and you can plug it into your nearest Mac and it to your macros and your system in a few short minutes. If it's an obscure piece of kit, and if they don't have the codes for it one of Logitech's army of engineers finds them and adds them to their database. Moreover, the shape, heft, feel, and button layout of them is beyond reproach. The URC remotes I saw were non-starters because the button layout was inferior and besides, at least the consumer models at the time were fatally crippled by the fact that their software only worked with lowly not-a-Macs. Hopefully they've fixed that egregious flaw by now.

But certainly I for one would not ever consider the purchase of a remote that enslaved me to a sales-force if I wanted to change the way I use my own damn equipment. 



[email protected] said:


> Did everyone that did not read through at least the first 5 pages miss the point where I said that I *would* give the software out......for free.....It just does not come with the amplifier or processor.


I don't think anyone missed your point that your firm thinks it appropriate to make purchasers of your expensive audio boxes supplicate to you in order to gain permission to make said purchases properly functional. 

Funny, if you guys were to do something along the lines of the URC download site, supra, i.e. anyone with a Zapco product containing a valid serial number could go to your website and help herself or himself, there wouldn't have been a thread here...


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## hawkfan (May 1, 2006)

chad said:


> I don't think that anybody who jumped in has read it to be honest... that's why I gave up


Lol!!!!


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

aworldcollision said:


> We are totally missing the point. It is a signal processor that has zero functionality without the software. It is literally a box in your signal for no reason. It isn't an amp. Nobody should buy a signal processor and not get to process signals. It's retarded.


I'm agreeing with you but I wanted to address some other issues at hand too, mainly how the attempts at justifying such a practice are not sensible. At some point people brought the DC amps into the discussion with the same concerns so our points would apply to both. 

There is a difference between getting the software in the box with the unit and having to jump through loopholes to get it and it isn't free: at the very least you will lose time and patience (no free lunch). Furthermore there are reasons surrounding this process that dealers back that are unjustified. It involves placing a certain control on the consumer that is unwarranted once the product has been purchased. I think "childish" is an euphemism. Controlling , elitist or trapping profits is more accurate.

It's like having to wait 30minutes on the line with your cable company while you are forced to hear their new advertisements. It's a sick process and we all hate it. Stop it.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

I seriously can't believe this crap thread is still going on. If you don't like Zapco's policy then don't buy it!!! DONE.

Don't spend days bitching about something that is meaningless to you anyway.

Ge0


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

********.

Follow the link on that page, and you will note that the company appropriately includes "internet retailer" and "online auction" as valid points-of-purchase in their drop-down menu. Moreover, information about the retailer is optional. IOW, so long as one purchases one of these remotes from a source that does not tamper with them by removing the serial number, you're good to go.

It's a stripped down and non-upgradable version, but that's besides the point now.

Do I sell URC and Harmony both? Yes. Do I own URC over Harmony? Yes. 
I don't work on commission, I don't really care what peolpe buy. I have used Harmony and URC both in my own home, and I know what works properly. That's beside the point right now though, because we are getting way off topic. I was just citing and example.


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## CobraVin (Jul 31, 2007)

Ge0 said:


> I seriously can't believe this crap thread is still going on. If you don't like Zapco's policy then don't buy it!!! DONE.
> 
> Don't spend days bitching about something that is meaningless to you anyway.
> 
> Ge0


while i agree this thread turned to a crap slinging and off topic rant for some i think it turned out good if Zapco has changed its policy because of the unfavorable response of many

and i think the original poster and others including myself didnt know of the policy until after the purchase



[email protected] said:


> Did everyone that did not read through at least the first 5 pages miss the point where I said that I *would* give the software out......for free.....It just does not come with the amplifier or processor.
> 
> Just thought I would pipe in and re-state that little bit of info.


Robert i hope that policy change will now include people that bought used as well, many people including my self, who buy used, or demo pieces with serial #'s intact, really shouldnt be shut out from software updates, regardless of where we bought our amps, (unless they are stolen of course) we already know that we are not under warranty

if you recall i even inquired about the cost of having some of the electronics updated to current specs and paying for it but was told i still wouldnt receive the current version of the software, so i decided not to bother


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## pikers (Oct 21, 2007)

CobraVin said:


> while i agree this thread turned to a crap slinging and off topic rant for some i think it turned out good if Zapco has changed its policy because of the unfavorable response of many.


You don't change laws and rules because a few people take issue with them. This is especially true in the case of certain people that probably find fault with anything that requires answering to authority.



havok20222 said:


> I was just citing an example.


It's obvious DS-21 is simply an anti-dealer type, thinking that playing by the rules is somehow a version of discrimination.

Guess what - The rules are in place to protect dealers. Without dealers there is no industry. Don't like it DS? Ebay and HAT are waiting for you. Don't like Zapco since they have the balls to protect their reputation and dealers? Plenty of others out there to invest in.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Did everyone that did not read through at least the first 5 pages miss the point where I said that I *would* give the software out......for free.....It just does not come with the amplifier or processor.
> 
> Just thought I would pipe in and re-state that little bit of info.


Did YOU miss the part where we're saying we shouldn't HAVE to call you? Whether or not it's free, the point is we can't go buy and install a DC without making another call and then waiting for THAT to show up too as I doubt you'd send out the software if we asked in advance for the same reasons you won't just put the damned thing in the box.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

havok20222 said:


> You're comparing a Pinto to a Ferrari. The Harmony remotes FAR pale in comparison to the URC has to offer. Also, URC has the MX-810 which programs like the Harmony and comes with software. It doesn't do custom macros, variables, or anything remotely close to the rest of the complete control and neither do ANY of the Harmony remotes. The Harmony was MADE to be programmed by the user, and the software is designed around that idea. The URC Complete control remotes, like the Zapco gear was not designed for use by the typical consumer.
> 
> Have some idea what you are talking about before get into this, please.


I know exactly what I'm talking about. Whether one is a Pinto and one is a Ferrari, neither remote will allow you to damage your gear if you use them wrong. One is more complex and user adjustable but ultimately they do the exact same thing. 

Zapco seems to think their box's software is so much more powerful than any other box's that we need to be "protected" from ourselves. How many other boxes on the market can just as easily damage our gear and we don't have to beg for all the parts that should have come in the box.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> I'm agreeing with you but I wanted to address some other issues at hand too, mainly how the attempts at justifying such a practice are not sensible. *At some point people brought the DC amps into the discussion with the same concerns so our points would apply to both. *There is a difference between getting the software in the box with the unit and having to jump through loopholes to get it and it isn't free: at the very least you will lose time and patience (no free lunch). Furthermore there are reasons surrounding this process that dealers back that are unjustified. It involves placing a certain control on the consumer that is unwarranted once the product has been purchased. I think "childish" is an euphemism. Controlling , elitist or trapping profits is more accurate.
> 
> It's like having to wait 30minutes on the line with your cable company while you are forced to hear their new advertisements. It's a sick process and we all hate it. Stop it.



I believe you...I wasn't gonna read it all. I keep reading now cuz I'm hooked. I'm like all chillin' and goin' JERRY!JERRY!JERRY!


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

Man, this thread is turning from a train wreck into a plane crashing into a train wreck (with the "Under Seige vs. Die Hard II" with Steven Segal being filmed inside).

A few facts:

I don't think the feds require you to offer a transferable warranty with product. So while we can argue that a grey market dealer is or isn't the original warranty holder (since they are the original purchaser) the issue might get fuzzy if people figure out that the grey market guy is buying directly from the manufacturer.

Mr. Rugani's customer isn't any of us. It's the dealer. Dealers write him checks. Dealers have to deal with warranty. Dealers are the first line of defense when it comes to technical issues (you would hope). So as much as we like to think he Zapco listens to us (or any other manufacturer for that matter) without their customers (the dealers) they wouldn't be around.

As already mentioned, they offer the CD for free. You call and ask for it. Not sure what the fuss is about. Maybe you might even get some pointers when you call up as well. Not everyone is going to need it (and in many cases there might not be any need for the end user to even have it).

As for warranty, a recent study by the CEA (Or NPD I think) showed that defective product makes up for less than 10% of returns. The rest consist of buyers remorse, or product that was too complicated to use or operate. So using that as an excuse in this day and age of high levels of QC seems just dumb to me.

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled rants.

Juan


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

OldOneEye said:


> Mr. Rugani's customer isn't any of us. It's the dealer. Dealers write him checks.


Who writes the dealer checks which allows the dealer to write checks to Zapco?


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

OldOneEye said:


> As already mentioned, they offer the CD for free. You call and ask for it. Not sure what the fuss is about. Maybe you might even get some pointers when you call up as well. Not everyone is going to need it (and in many cases there might not be any need for the end user to even have it).
> 
> Juan


Juan-

Can you please give us a scenario in which the CD is not needed? Excluded would be people who already have it or people who are going to rely upon their dealer to make all of the adjustments. Thank you.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

ClinesSelect said:


> Juan-
> 
> Can you please give us a scenario in which the CD is not needed? Excluded would be people who already have it or people who are going to rely upon their dealer to make all of the adjustments. Thank you.


So you are assuming 100% of installs with that product are DIY? Just people people like music in there cars doesn't mean they want or know how to adjust it. 

Now as far as who the Zapco's dealers customers are, those are the end user. It's really up to them to put pressure Zapco to have policies that allow them to sell the product. 

Juan


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

OldOneEye said:


> So you are assuming 100% of installs with that product are DIY? Just people people like music in there cars doesn't mean they want or know how to adjust it.
> 
> Now as far as who the Zapco's dealers customers are, those are the end user. It's really up to them to put pressure Zapco to have policies that allow them to sell the product.
> 
> Juan


Ie. not DIYMA folks. Why are people surprised this policy is not received well here?

BTW I think people underestimate just how big this forum got. Everytime I search for something car audio related there is always a DIYMA link in the first few google listings. Maybe not many people post, but how many people use the search function worldwide?


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

OldOneEye said:


> So you are assuming 100% of installs with that product are DIY? Just people people like music in there cars doesn't mean they want or know how to adjust it.
> 
> Now as far as who the Zapco's dealers customers are, those are the end user. It's really up to them to put pressure Zapco to have policies that allow them to sell the product.
> 
> Juan


No I do not assume that 100% of the installs are DIY but what percentage of the purchases will, at some point after the amp is installed, want to make an adjustment on their own? Let's not even discuss T/A or crossover or EQ. What if they just want to adjust the gain? 

Who is the demographic purchasing these very expensive amps? People who "just like music in their cars", in my humble opinion and based upon a few years spent as the floor manager at a dealer, are not the typical customer who is spending $1,400 on a mono amp.


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## vjgli (Nov 4, 2007)

Under consumer protection act a manufacture must give minimum 90 day warranty from time of purchase regardless how the item was bought.

Don't let company's scare tactic scare you of forcing you to buy from an authorized dealer.

The feds basically said, just because the item was bought through alternative distribution does not mean the merchandise automatically goes bad sitting inside the box.

So, dealers and manufactures beware. better do your research before the feds drop a hefty fine on you butt like they did to DEI back in the 90's.


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## stereojnky (Mar 17, 2008)

OldOneEye said:


> As already mentioned, they offer the CD for free. You call and ask for it. Not sure what the fuss is about. Maybe you might even get some pointers when you call up as well. Not everyone is going to need it (and in many cases there might not be any need for the end user to even have it).
> 
> 
> Juan


No disrespect to Robert as he has taken care of me and I greatly appreciate it. 
I bought a used DC amp, bought authorized, seller provided the software. I did call Zapco to get the password for the software because seller forgot to provide it and all I got was " we don't provide the password over the phone". I asked if it could be emailed and the response was, " ..get it from the person you bought the amp from..." 
Now granted, like the OP, I was a little impatient but I still think that is ridiculous especially considering that I know the amp was bought authorized and I provided the serial # to the guy. I'm all about protecting the dealers, and I buy from b and m when possible but this is just protecting the customer from himself. Very frustrating experience for a future lifetime customer. I've always loved Zapco but could never afford it until now. 
And just so you know, the nearest dealer is over 2 hours away. And you use the software to adjust EVERYTHING on the amp including the gains. So yes you ABSOLUTELY DO NEED IT. Don't want to drive that far just to have my amps adjusted when there is nothing in there that i don't have in my 9833 or to put it in perspective, aW205 and h701 combo. 
IMHO there should be some type of warning in BIG RED BOLD LETTERS in the package (ie... USE AT YOUR OWN RISK....etc)and before you use the software that you have to check " I AGREE TO THESE TERMS" and there's the end to your liability. And as far as support I would rather pay a fee to transfer ownership of an authorized bought product for receipt of upgrades to software from a site than to have to drive 2 hrs to get it even if I bought it there.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

Zapco is trying to protect dealers. For those in the industry, one common thread on items coming back defective or blown up (for systems that were not DIY in particular but installed at a shop) is that the system was finally tuned at the shop and someone tampered with it afterwards. In many cases you read about bass boost going from flat to +15, gain all the way up and more bass boost from the EQ on the radio. Many ask about ways of locking the settings in and also lament a world where +15 db bass boost is built into an amp.

The dealer is the guy who gets to clean up the mess when equipment fails because of abuse.

Now, if I was buying the amp over the counter (and I'm going to assume that a guy who is DIY found out more info online and he isn't walking into a store blind and then getting sold into a Zapco DC), I would say "look, I know what I'm doing, I'm not 16 years old, the gain isn't a volume knob, I'm not going to be doing +15 on the bass boost, etc..... and in order to purchase the amp I would like a copy of the software and the password.". Considering the cost of the item, I would do research about it before laying out that kind of cash. If the dealer balks, I walk. 

Juan


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

I'm not really following that analogy..........for non "dc" made amps, there is usually a bass boost knob that can easily get turned. 

Zapco could easily get around this whole thing and offer the software on their website with a checkbox that says by downloading this software I agree that zapco is not liable for any misuse, and that zapco really recommends settings to be set by an authorized dealer. You could actually have them put the serial number in or something so that regardless of owner, it can be tracked if it comes in for service.

But honestly I don't think that's the answer. Lets face it guys, the internet is not going away and there are going to be people selling equipment on it for years to come. Fight it or invite it, but this thing about protection seems a little delusional to me. I mean handcuffing the software doesnt stop the sale of the product regardless of where you purchase it from.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

I don't think the issue is the internet. The internet doesn't jump into your trunk and **** with settings.

Juan


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

sorry Juan, I thought that was the direction of your post.  my apologies.

and you are right, the internet does not jump into your trunk and **** with settings nor the dealer that sells you the amp authorized with the software


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

OldOneEye said:


> I would say "look, I know what I'm doing, I'm not 16 years old, the gain isn't a volume knob, I'm not going to be doing +15 on the bass boost, etc..... and in order to purchase the amp I would like a copy of the software and the password.". Considering the cost of the item, I would do research about it before laying out that kind of cash. If the dealer balks, I walk.


That makes sense now. The problem, besides the basic philosophy that it's OK to charge someone an arm and a leg for a commodity part and then expect them to come back to you and beg to actually be able to use it, is that Zapco didn't even seem to tell its customers that they needed to come back on hands and knees in order to use the expensive stuff they just bought!


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## stereojnky (Mar 17, 2008)

BigRed said:


> I'm not really following that analogy..........for non "dc" made amps, there is usually a bass boost knob that can easily get turned.
> 
> Zapco could easily get around this whole thing and offer the software on their website with a checkbox that says by downloading this software I agree that zapco is not liable for any misuse, and that zapco really recommends settings to be set by an authorized dealer. You could actually have them put the serial number in or something so that regardless of owner, it can be tracked if it comes in for service.
> 
> But honestly I don't think that's the answer. Lets face it guys, the internet is not going away and there are going to be people selling equipment on it for years to come. Fight it or invite it, but this thing about protection seems a little delusional to me. I mean handcuffing the software doesnt stop the sale of the product regardless of where you purchase it from.


That's my point exactly! There is nothing that those amps can do that you can't do with "regular" equipment. 
I just like the fact that I have one less device in my signal chain. 


Even if I do drive the 2 hrs to buy an amp, if I want updates I've got to go through the dealer!? Don't get me wrong, my nearest dealer is one of the top, most respected installers in the country but I just can't afford to travel just for updates.



And I respectfully disagree about this issue not affecting the sale of the product. When more people find out about it, the more it's going to devalue my amps because of the trouble. If I lived closer to my dealer it wouldn't bother me as much, I guess, but it is what it is. 

In retrospect, if I had known about it I may have looked elsewhere, and just bought a h701 for processing.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

but it's free!


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

OldOneEye said:


> The dealer is the guy who gets to clean up the mess when equipment fails because of abuse.


That is the problem right there. It's very simple. The dealer needs to find a way to cover only manufacturer's defects. 


Using the bass boost at max is not illegal. Why does the knob go to +15db if the amp can't handle it? The amp has built in protection doesn't it? Are we talking about an inferior product here or what?

As a last resort have a third party insure it, there's plenty of that on ebay.


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## vjgli (Nov 4, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> That is the problem right there. It's very simple. The dealer needs to find a way to cover only manufacturer's defects.
> 
> 
> Using the bass boost at max is not illegal. Why does the knob go to +15db if the amp can't handle it? The amp has built in protection doesn't it? Are we talking about an inferior product here or what?
> ...


How you intent to "protect" if the dynamic range can be +/- 26dB
If you want a protection, you'd use a limiter like Pro Audio gear.
However, most ppl would not understand how to use them.
For car in essence, you would want as much headroom as possible.
So, putting a protection like Power Guard circuit from McIntosh simply will limit the sheer dynamic range of the source.
Only remedy for car stereo would be huge power supply to handle the voltage swing.


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## 03blueSI (Feb 5, 2006)

OldOneEye said:


> Zapco is trying to protect dealers. For those in the industry, one common thread on items coming back defective or blown up (for systems that were not DIY in particular but installed at a shop) is that the system was finally tuned at the shop and someone tampered with it afterwards. In many cases you read about bass boost going from flat to +15, gain all the way up and more bass boost from the EQ on the radio. Many ask about ways of locking the settings in and also lament a world where +15 db bass boost is built into an amp.
> 
> The dealer is the guy who gets to clean up the mess when equipment fails because of abuse.
> 
> ...


It all depends on the shop and how well they know you. When I was considering the DC amps, the shop I go through I have bought equipment from and gotten advice from for more than 10 years and they had no problem providing the software and the password to me. They did say that the vast majority of their customers they would not give this to.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

I gotta say ...NO dealer OR installer is going to touch my car. All of this BS about 'protecting the dealers' ...is BS. I don't give a rats rear about dealers ...not gonna buy from a dealer either.

>^..^<


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

Catman said:


> I gotta say ...NO dealer OR installer is going to touch my car. All of this BS about 'protecting the dealers' ...is BS. I don't give a rats rear about dealers ...not gonna buy from a dealer either.
> 
> >^..^<


that sounds like a personal problem, not a Zapco problem. The dealer/installer doesnt have to touch your car. You just have to get the Zap products(or software support) from a dealer.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Megalomaniac said:


> that sounds like a personal problem, not a Zapco problem. The dealer/installer doesnt have to touch your car. You just have to get the Zap products(or software support) from a dealer.


Yes. Exactly as I, and many others like me have done.

Ge0


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## TheKomoman (Jun 14, 2008)

I wonder if somebody could help me out... I did get my DC1000.4 from an authorized dealer, but he's a n00b to Zapco DC Ref and he didn't know to give me the password. I expect he will come up with it for me (his master distributor didn't give it to him either <sigh>) but I was looking forward to tweaking this weekend. I would REALLY appreciate it if someone would PM me the password for 1.4 so I can set my sub xover and the high shelf filter to tone down my tweet!!

Thanks


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

Ge0 said:


> Yes. Exactly as I, and many others like me have done.
> 
> Ge0


Why buy from a 'dealer'?

>^..^<


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

Catman said:


> Why buy from a 'dealer'?
> 
> >^..^<


why not? I know I wont get scammed from a dealer where as the internet you take that chance where you will. Then you will sit behind your screen and complain about the internet how it is not fair


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

Megalomaniac said:


> why not? I know I wont get scammed from a dealer where as the internet you take that chance where you will. Then you will sit behind your screen and complain about the internet how it is not fair


I've never been scammed on the internet. Why pay high prices from a dealer when I don't 'need' their services? You didn't answer the question ....WHY buy from a dealer? IMO I'm more likely to get ripped off from a dealer.

>^..^<


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

y buy anything from a store then? people buy from a dealer for service and warrenty. alot of companies are making where if you don't have a reciept showing purchase from an authorized dealer they won't warrenty the product. and as megalo said with all the knockoffs out there you won't have to worry about getting a fake. how are you most likely to get ripped of from a dealer?


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

Horsemanwill said:


> ...alot of companies are making where if you don't have a reciept showing purchase from an authorized dealer they won't warrenty the product. and as megalo said with all the knockoffs out there you won't have to worry about getting a fake. ...


I have been into car audio for 30 years ...and have always bought 'high end' / quality audio products ....NEVER had a warranty issue. I had rather buy good stuff to begin with ...than to have to worry about 'warranty issues'. As far as knockoffs ...you gotta know your equipment.

>^..^<


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

Catman said:


> I've never been scammed on the internet. Why pay high prices from a dealer when I don't 'need' their services? You didn't answer the question ....WHY buy from a dealer? IMO I'm more likely to get ripped off from a dealer.
> 
> >^..^<


without a dealer, you wont find those "cheap" amps anywhere on net due to not many people having them, prices would theoretically hike due to the scarcity amount out there. Where as with the dealer, there are plenty of people out there who steal them from the customers who buy them, or just customers who want to sell them, and ends up on the blackmarket for your "pleasure "  lol


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## hemi4me? (Apr 30, 2008)

Lots of Zapco people here... I want to thank the person that started the thread I got my transmitter thank you! I sent the postal money order out, you should get it very soon...

Does anyone know how I can get a volume control for the sub channel on the 650.6DC amp? Can I use the DBC or do I have to use the VFM-B?

Does anyone have one they want to sell? Or Rob want to get me one please!? 

Thank you

paul


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Megalomaniac said:


> without a dealer, you wont find those "cheap" amps anywhere on net due to not many people having them, prices would theoretically hike due to the scarcity amount out there. Where as with the dealer, there are plenty of people out there who steal them from the customers who buy them, or just customers who want to sell them, and ends up on the blackmarket for your "pleasure "  lol


I was always worried that I'm buying a stolen unit on the net. Good point. There are ways of making sure the owner bought it, like buying a BNIB item, or open items that haven't been installed. I agree the risk is there and it would surely suck to promote stolen items.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

Economy of scale will probably have more of an effect on price than scarcity. There really is no reason you can't make more Zapco amps for example (I mean, they aren't a limited supply of most of the components in there as far as I can tell). Now, if they double production, they would probably be paying less for the parts and possible could afford to do more automated building (saving more cost).

With that said, with dealers there would be no demand for Zapco (or any other brand). Be careful of no-name brands that say "JL has 500 auctions, we have 5 auctions on ebay" because that probably means they are doing 100 times worse of a job creating demand for their product.

Juan


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Megalomaniac said:


> that sounds like a personal problem, not a Zapco problem. The dealer/installer doesnt have to touch your car. You just have to get the Zap products(or software support) from a dealer.


Where is this mythical dealer you speak of in the D/FW metroplex? We're the fourth largest metropolitan area in the country and I can't think of one dealer locally that I'd buy from or have work on my car and I'm not the only guy that has expressed that sentiment here.


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> Where is this mythical dealer you speak of in the D/FW metroplex? We're the fourth largest metropolitan area in the country and I can't think of one dealer locally that I'd buy from or have work on my car and I'm not the only guy that has expressed that sentiment here.


you think that's bad? try living in CHICAGO! there is NOBODY here who knows ANYTHING about car audio as far as i am concerned. heck, i've seen cars literally go up in flames from poor wiring. i wouldn't let any car audio dealer install a deck and 4, much less a real system. they know NOTHING, are VERY overpriced, not only on the product, but also on the labor, and then, it's rare that i talk to someone that has work done that is a) satisfied, and b) had their install completed in the time promised. most of the local dealers seem like nothing more than a thug hang out and a place where you don't want to give your real address for fear of a late night visit to your garage by a miscreant who knows you now have decent stuff to steal.


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

bassfromspace said:


> Where is this mythical dealer you speak of in the D/FW metroplex? We're the fourth largest metropolitan area in the country and I can't think of one dealer locally that I'd buy from or have work on my car and I'm not the only guy that has expressed that sentiment here.


I never really looked at any dealers here, I have a dealer I knew/know on a personal level, he is in california. I had boughten my Zap products from him. I personally dont let shops work on my car either. But I think you over looked the point. The point is without a dealer how would someone buy a product authorized(authorized meaning, your money will make its way to Zapco to show your support for them)?


Its kind of like buying a CD, sure you can get it "free" on the net, but if you really enjoy their music you would buy the album, so some of your money makes its way to the band to show your support and will encourage them to make more albums.


edit: what would help would be if the dealers went through a heavier screening process before allowing them to deal to show their integrity in their business.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Megalomaniac said:


> I never really looked at any dealers here, I have a dealer I knew/know on a personal level, he is in california. I had boughten my Zap products from him. I personally dont let shops work on my car either. But I think you over looked the point. The point is without a dealer how would someone buy a product authorized(authorized meaning, your money will make its way to Zapco to show your support for them)?


Many companies are surviving with both a dealer network and internet sales. Pioneer, Alpine, and RF come to mind. In the case of the DC amps, they seem to be pretty exclusive (productions-wise) so they could easily move to a more DIY friendly format by having the buyer purchase their products through their website and offering the software and password through their. Dealers are not needed and I suspect that they'll only be around long enough for the customer to completely acclimate themselves to purchasing almost exclusively online.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)




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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

bassfromspace said:


> Many companies are surviving with both a dealer network and internet sales. Pioneer, Alpine, and RF come to mind. In the case of the DC amps, they seem to be pretty exclusive (productions-wise) so they could easily move to a more DIY friendly format by having the buyer purchase their products through their website and offering the software and password through their. Dealers are not needed and I suspect that they'll only be around long enough for the customer to completely acclimate themselves to purchasing almost exclusively online.


Zapco does offer products to sell on their website, but they are all MSRP priced though...

But to say dealers are not needed is silly and ignorant. There are plenty of people who buy from a dealer. I am not saying the internet is dumb, but a LOT of people would rather prefer to walk into a store and do the transaction right then and there clean cut and dry than to wait for a product on the net. I know I get criticized a lot for me not buying stuff from the stores at times. You just got to pick your battles. 

what if the guy online that sells the zapco stuff is a numnutt too?...ignorance is bliss ,right?

If all this talk is about that password, all you got to do is pick up the phone(or keyboard )and contact a dealer or even Zapco( didnt robert say he would supply it to whoever?)!


also Zapco is surviving as right now


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## BlueAc (May 19, 2007)

benny z said:


>


That's too funny... lol!!!


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## iyamwutiam (Nov 20, 2006)

Zapco -like many modern 'approach' companies-now subscribe to the greater fool theory. After all we are the home of PT Barnum , Edison (not Tesla), Ford (not BMW)- hey we are all american fools who can be rallied to the flag for higher profit magrins- forget about QC/QR and most of all being competitive- as many companies have shown- and responded - th greatest amercan love affair is 'being' american. BTW -I talked to Rob @ zapco (yes YOU)= 3 years go- he was a D**K and you can quote me and yo-email me- it was a simple question about a Zapco 9.0-- I will NEVER buy Zapco again and haven't.. Yes-Rob please Do respond - and pretend that you have not compromised your ethics for a mortgage, or that because you got a semi-well paid job for being an *******= I have watced his threadlong enuf -to finally say-hey it's damage conrol but not at ALL sincere. I know - it's a mortgage -you have wife and kids to think about - as Ron Paul said - the trend has become from chargig the least from your country men to charging the exhorbitant most- but SOMEHOW - you want us to sanctify your sin of turning your BACK on your FELLOW CITIZENS not to mention your ethereal spirits in search of sound quality--who the F**K is confused - prolly YOU.

Contrast that to Brax - and guess what - for the price of shipping - I got a new amp. Don't even try and pretend Rob - if you can't handle the heat in the kitchen -get the heck out since we all Know American companies love ripping of americans more than ACTUALLY trying to compete (FORD/GM/Zapco/PG/Soundstream/Tru(ROFL)- which has always been KOREAN-we all KNOW- you guys are like protecitonist/outdated/inferior quality -- poor service---- lets rip off our loyal citizens and better yet preten that its 'THE INTERNET'- I know you sleep at night - my amazemet is that most of you -all the way to the president haven't been declared psychotic. After all- what's the point of competition- since you don't compete.

As the saying goes 
'You asked for it - you got it!!'


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Well I can say Robert has dropped whatever he was doing to take my calls about anything. Even a simple symbilink cable question I could have looked up myself. I have called him 5 times in a day before to ask a questions he always took the time out to help me.

He has never had a problem answering anything or helping even after me telling him I bought something used.

So rant all you like. Looks like you are in the minority of about .0000000001% of people. If you want to prove how bad Robert is post or link other complaints. I know I can find enough praising Robert to fill an entire thread.


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## iyamwutiam (Nov 20, 2006)

Whatevah-bro-your experience is absolute reality- so I won't argue-after all- your experience HAS to be more relevant han any other persons wh has actually called and talked to Rob. BTW -thanks for listening 
I don'tneed to rant- I just by other amps- I knew Dav at Zapco - and he was awesome-but like I said - I am not interested if I am .0000000000000001 percent because for me - the call(s) were 100 percent. 

Anyway- I am sure we can be pen-pals!!!


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

does zapco have a web site?


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

by the way

'all good amps sound the same'

no 'sound' at all, they just amplify the original signal faithfully.


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## stereojnky (Mar 17, 2008)

Genxx said:


> Well I can say Robert has dropped whatever he was doing to take my calls about anything. Even a simple symbilink cable question I could have looked up myself. I have called him 5 times in a day before to ask a questions he always took the time out to help me.
> 
> He has never had a problem answering anything or helping even after me telling him I bought something used.
> 
> So rant all you like. Looks like you are in the minority of about .0000000001% of people. If you want to prove how bad Robert is post or link other complaints. I know I can find enough praising Robert to fill an entire thread.


So you're the reason that I couldn't get any help.

Robert was so busy answering your stupid simbilink question that I ended up getting a noobie customer service guy.

Maybe you should stop calling so much, so the rest of us can get some of that.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

iyamwutiam said:


> Whatevah-bro-your experience is absolute reality- so I won't argue-after all- your experience HAS to be more relevant han any other persons wh has actually called and talked to Rob. BTW -thanks for listening
> *I don'tneed to rant*- I just by other amps- I knew Dav at Zapco - and he was awesome-but like I said - I am not interested if I am .0000000000000001 percent because for me - the call(s) were 100 percent.
> 
> Anyway- I am sure we can be pen-pals!!!


You made your statement that Robert was crap. Which is your experience and you stated it for reality. So I stated mine for reality. No difference then what you did. So both our experiences are equally relevant from our experience/point of view. *I never said mine was more relevant, you drew that conclusion yourself.*

If you did not need to rant then why do so?

My calls were 100 percent also BRO. 

To bad you took my reply so hard then decided to act like an ass and make a smart ass comment on the pen-pal comment. Rather then provide more info to support your claim of reality about Robert.

I do not need to stoop to that level to get my points across.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

stereojnky said:


> So you're the reason that I couldn't get any help.
> 
> Robert was so busy answering your stupid simbilink question that I ended up getting a noobie customer service guy.
> 
> Maybe you should stop calling so much, so the rest of us can get some of that.



Speed Dial FTW.


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## codek (Aug 7, 2008)

To remedy all this, can't zapco just stop selling to internet retailers? I'm not sure how it gets out there.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

[sarcasm]

No And Then!
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=rZbYZ_NDoE8

[/sarcasm]


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

chad said:


> [sarcasm]
> 
> No And Then!
> http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=rZbYZ_NDoE8
> ...


And ... then


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## iD Z24 (Aug 6, 2008)

Zappy has been good to me!!


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

While we're beating the horse:

This thread is the reason I'm not saving for a DC-series or two. Zapco apparently makes too much money already, and doesn't deserve mine.


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## ChicoOG (Nov 27, 2007)

I have received better service/customer support from Zapco than ANY other company i have EVER dealt with...Robert and crew have been absolutely flawless. Nordstroms, RuthsChris, and Ritz Carlton have great customer service, but none have gone so far as Zapco to back their products/services.

I haven't found bitching on a public forum to be a real effective problem solving tactic. It fairs things up, creates chaos and division...if that is your intent, you win, congratulations.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

iyamwutiam said:


> Zapco -like many modern 'approach' companies-now subscribe to the greater fool theory. After all we are the home of PT Barnum , Edison (not Tesla), Ford (not BMW)- hey we are all american fools who can be rallied to the flag for higher profit magrins- forget about QC/QR and most of all being competitive- as many companies have shown- and responded - th greatest amercan love affair is 'being' american. BTW -I talked to Rob @ zapco (yes YOU)= 3 years go- he was a D**K and you can quote me and yo-email me- it was a simple question about a Zapco 9.0-- I will NEVER buy Zapco again and haven't.. Yes-Rob please Do respond - and pretend that you have not compromised your ethics for a mortgage, or that because you got a semi-well paid job for being an *******= I have watced his threadlong enuf -to finally say-hey it's damage conrol but not at ALL sincere. I know - it's a mortgage -you have wife and kids to think about - as Ron Paul said - the trend has become from chargig the least from your country men to charging the exhorbitant most- but SOMEHOW - you want us to sanctify your sin of turning your BACK on your FELLOW CITIZENS not to mention your ethereal spirits in search of sound quality--who the F**K is confused - prolly YOU.
> 
> Contrast that to Brax - and guess what - for the price of shipping - I got a new amp. Don't even try and pretend Rob - if you can't handle the heat in the kitchen -get the heck out since we all Know American companies love ripping of americans more than ACTUALLY trying to compete (FORD/GM/Zapco/PG/Soundstream/*Tru(ROFL)- which has always been KOREAN-we all KNOW*- you guys are like protecitonist/outdated/inferior quality -- poor service---- lets rip off our loyal citizens and better yet preten that its 'THE INTERNET'- I know you sleep at night - my amazemet is that most of you -all the way to the president haven't been declared psychotic. After all- what's the point of competition- since you don't compete.
> 
> ...


Uhm, what? The operation I saw in California was a figment of my imagination? or am I misunderstanding you?


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

chad said:


> [sarcasm]
> 
> No And Then!
> http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=rZbYZ_NDoE8
> ...


I saw a 4x10 in that thing!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> I saw a 4x10 in that thing!


Oh you bastard!

While I was watching it I went "oh lookee, a 4X10."


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

chad said:


> Oh you bastard!
> 
> While I was watching it I went "oh lookee, a 4X10."


Hahahah... You know you're a car audio guy when... "You're watching a movie, and a speaker falls out, and you identify it's size, style and composition mentally, while everyone else has since moved on to the next scene." lol


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Hahahah... You know you're a car audio guy when... "You're watching a movie, and a speaker falls out, and you identify it's size, style and composition mentally, while everyone else has since moved on to the next scene." lol


That's EXACTLY why i did not say anything, a little voice in my mind said "Shut up, you are REALLY gonna come across as a geek" while my right-brain was saying "****, they coulda got more low end out of that thing"


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Maybe that's why "And then" sounded really hollow and tinny.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

chad said:


> That's EXACTLY why i did not say anything, a little voice in my mind said "Shut up, you are REALLY gonna come across as a geek" *while my right-brain was saying "****, they coulda got more low end out of that thing"*


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

(beats dead horse)
I went to my local B&M (Sounds Extreme in Peterborough) to see if he sold DC amps. 

him-Yes.

me-Do you provide the software? 

him-No. If you tune your own amp, Zapco won't honour your warranty.

me-WHAT!? What if I know what I'm doing? I do my own installs.

him-Zapco's trying to discourage DIY'ing. If you know so much, why aren't you certified?

I left.

(/beats dead horse)


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

benny said:


> If you know so much, why aren't you certified?
> 
> I left.
> 
> (/beats dead horse)


"Well sir only my ass is certified, certified at walking my legs out of that door" 

Just call Zpaco.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Or don't.


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## drtool (Nov 26, 2007)

and then sorry


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

I praise Zapco, they stand behind there dealers and there product if they are installed by an authorized dealer/installer. 

Bravo!!!!!!!!

Christian


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## dejo (Jan 3, 2006)

I can see zapco standing behind their dealers, but the customer is the money man in the end. I for one wouldnt buy the amps if I didnt get the software with it. I would never leave that strongarm possibility to a dealer. I tried to buy them about a year ago from an authorized dealer and they wanted more than retail and didnt even have them in stock, so bye bye for me. If I am going to pay retail I am going to pick product up that day or no purchase for me. I truly loved all my zapco amps I have ever had, which is 5 bought authorized back when they were the studio amps and were very high priced then too.

I see this as a ploy for the dealer to make more money off said customers, and that is it.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Porsche said:


> I praise Zapco, they stand behind there dealers and there product if they are installed by an authorized dealer/installer.


And you know, maybe Zapco has a point.

Maybe people who spend that much on commodity parts like car audio amplifiers are idiots, and as such should be treated with the utmost contempt.


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## dejo (Jan 3, 2006)

Scott P said:


> I agree it's a horrible analogy, but unfortunately dealing with internet consumer bases merits a grossly over exagerated exclamation to properly drive the point home that I'm not in business to hand out freebies to someone that ignored the free advise they were given.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what good is the dps6 if you dont have the software or ability to tune it. just let the dealer set the amps and be done with it. no need to spend a crapload more cash for a device you have no clue what it does or how to use it. I would think for the money zapco charges they could write a nice manual that would get most all the info they would need and everyone would be happy, even zapco. the dealer may not be as he now has nothing to use as leverage to get some more of your cash.


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## Scott P (Sep 9, 2007)

dejo said:


> what good is the dps6 if you dont have the software or ability to tune it. just let the dealer set the amps and be done with it. no need to spend a crapload more cash for a device you have no clue what it does or how to use it. I would think for the money zapco charges they could write a nice manual that would get most all the info they would need and everyone would be happy, even zapco. the dealer may not be as he now has nothing to use as leverage to get some more of your cash.


I'm not really sure what point your are getting here so forgive me if I misunderstood your reply.

Let me start with an example. At my shop we sell Rockford, JL, and AC. I've used all three in various cars for their various tuning capabilities. Never once have I had a customer so much as ask about, let alone actually purchase one over the counter. That said, I have had instances where we have had customers come in with there own equipment and ask us to tune it for them. 

Granted none of these use proprietary software such as Zapco, but it begins to show the trend that by not making the software publicly available all Zapco, and by default the dealers, are doing is protecting thier customer base from themselves.

Another example: As i stated I am not a zapco dealer, nor a member of their competition team. I am an average consumer as far as they are concerned. That said I had an issue with an amp I bought, authorized, and had to send it in. After going over everything possible with the installation (i actually requested this to be done) I shipped the amp back overnight and had a new one shipped back overnight to me along with the DPN software on disc as a backup (since when I bought the amps i was given a zip file). This was a model of superior customer service from Robert and everyone at Zapco.

Personally the way I run my shop, and the way i think most all shops should be run is like this: I should not have to "pry" or con a customer out of their money. I pride myself on having customers coming to me and saying, "Scott, this is what I want to do. . .blah blah blah. . .make it happen."

You see if a customer is asking me how much it will cost in the end, then I have failed to properly explain the benifits of my shop doing the work.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Why is one an idiot if they spend alot on a car amplifier, that has to rate as the most moronic statement I have read on this forum since joining, BRAVO, you have succeeded. You can say the same thing about cars/clothes/etc

When a manufacturer stands behind there dealer I cannot applaud them enough. So many people and I bet you are one of them along with 99% of the guys on his forum do the following: 

Go to the dealer, check out a product, view and demo the product and waste a dealers time, than you start shopping for it and buy it from whoever will sell it the cheapest. You call or go by so and so dealer and ask a 1000 questions and listen and waste there time with no intention on buying it from them. You buy from a warehouse and than will whine and ***** when things do not get resolved asap. It's better to buy from a "good" authorized dealer, you are not buying just there product but also there service and experience which is what get's lost in the biz now that you have the internet. 

Christian





DS-21 said:


> And you know, maybe Zapco has a point.
> 
> Maybe people who spend that much on commodity parts like car audio amplifiers are idiots, and as such should be treated with the utmost contempt.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

Zapco does sell a controller for the DSP6(or is it bundled with the DSP6?confused...) and/or can control the amps DSP should the consumer want to tune the system manually, which has no requirement to physically have the software on disc. I guess the beef here is for the software needed for laptop tuning. The future dsp software updates would require the software as well.

So the answer again is...spend more, so you can operate/tune it yourself, but you are at road block when you want to update the unit, or must pay a visit to your dealer.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

this thread was about the DSP-6 not an amplifier. Imagine getting a 701 but no interface. It's pretty but it might as well be a space rock. 

As far as that guy's "most moronic statement." Ahem...

Muppets make better cookies than elves.


See, now I am the winner of the most moronic statement award (crowd cheers)


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

As Robert has stated before. You can get the software its just not handed out to every joe schmo that walks into a shop and buys a DSP6 or DC amp. If you are competent and have a clue what you are doing then you will have it released to you.

I see both points on this. 

But not every joe that can drop the cash on some nice gear has a ****ing clue what they are doing. 

I am not going to let some dude just jump in my car and start playing with a DC amp setting because has the cash on him to replace it in hand.

Another scenario. You are the shop owner/dealer. You install a comp set, sub and some DC amps. Now you give this guy the software, that you only know because he walked into the shop and drooped the cash. He goes home plays with the setting and returns a week later. Telling you his front speakers don't sound right. You check it and he has messed with the setting and blown the front mids. 

1. The speakers do have a 1 year warranty so you replace them. Retune it at no charge and tell him not to mess with it. He returns 4 months later after he is trying to impress a friend with now a blown tweeter. You replace it now under warranty and retune it and give him another warning.

^^^^This is my concern with just handing out software. It has the potential to turn into a vicious cycle.

If you do not replace the speakers the guy then just goes around saying your shop is garbage to his friends and the internet.

You don’t give out the software and the guys that know what they are doing start complaining and posting on the internet.

It’s a no win situation either way. I think Zapco is doing the best they can. They screen the customer to determine if they should have the software.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Scott P said:


> Granted none of these use proprietary software such as Zapco, but it begins to show the trend that by not making the software publicly available all Zapco, and by default the dealers, are doing is protecting thier customer base from themselves.


It's certainly not a trend. It's a pathetic, crybaby idiot anomaly.
Alpine supplies all customers with its front end for the Audyssey MultEQ XT software in its better processors. Rockford puts the 3sixty.2 software on their website. In pro audio, Harman puts their System Assistant software for all of their HiQnet based products (Crown amps, JBL speakers, etc.) on the internet, and their competitors do likewise. In home audio, Audyssey sells their MultEQ XT Pro installer's kit, and anyone can download the software to update his Velodyne SMS-1. In fact, I can't think of anyone else who employs Zapco's asinine approach.

The trend is not towards that kind of ********, but to sophisticated automated correction systems that employ modern computing horsepower and cutting-edge psychoacoustic modeling to do about as well as any seasoned tuner could do but with minimal effort. The only current example in car-fi is the Audyssey MultEQ XT stuff available through Alpine, though JBL's MS8 will be at the very least up there, too, and I expect that other car-fi firms with decent technical chops such as JL will be moving in that direction, too. Simple DSP-based EQ without any onboard measurement capability let alone auto-correction is really rather behind the curve, and at the prices Zapco charges they should really be at the leading edge of the curve rather than at the bottom of it.



Scott P said:


> You see if a customer is asking me how much it will cost in the end, then I have failed to properly explain the benifits of my shop doing the work.


That is silly. When I commission a shirt from Charvet in Paris or a suit from Knize in Vienna or one of the Savile Row houses in London, I still ask how much it will end up costing in the fabric I have selected. And I am well aware of the benefits, for otherwise I'd stick to buying stuff off the peg. (Which I still do, but only on deep discount.) After all, nobody's on an unlimited budget.

Of course, there is a difference. Most people certainly can't make a shirt to Charvet's standards, or a suit to Knize's or Huntsman's. (Actually, in my estimation, nobody else can.) But the comparatively simple task of plugging in a few wires in a car, measuring the response, listening, and making adjustments by twiddling with a GUI...that's not beyond the ability of anyone of reasonable intelligence who is interested in doing it. Especially with the support network of fora such as this one.



Porsche said:


> Why is one an idiot if they spend alot on a car amplifier, that has to rate as the most moronic statement I have read on this forum since joining, BRAVO, you have succeeded. You can say the same thing about cars/clothes/etc


Amps are commodities. They all sound the same, assuming they're not broken and of competent initial design. So that overpriced Zapco will sound exactly the same as that Kenwood (assuming one doesn't touch one of the Zapco's parametric bands), and with the EQ zeroed out it will sound exactly the same as a JL Audio, Alpine, Pioneer, Lanzar, Rockford, Infinity, or whoever the hell else markets amps today. Yet due to their antiquated design they fall far short of some of their peers (Alpine PDX, Kenwood's and Jello's class D amps, presumably others as well) in characteristics that are useful in car audio such as compact size and efficiency. And they are outlandishly expensive. So yes, one could easily make the case that Zapco buyers are mouth-breathers.

And unlike in home audio, where expensive amps can arguably serve as an aesthetic feature in a room, in car amps are hidden because if they're not they end up being stolen. So there's really no virtue to an expensive car audio amplifier at all.

And you certainly can't compare amps to cars or clothes. Neither of those categories are commodities. There is an obvious and apparent to everyone difference in just about everything between a 911 and a Corvette. And anyone who can't tell the difference between even a middle-market machine-made off-the-peg suit such as a Zegna or an Isaia and a Men's Wearhouse gluejob by feel and look is simply unobservant. But anyone who can't tell if there's an expensive or cheap amp hidden behind some panel in the trunk upon listening to a system...that person could well be the greatest listener in the world, because there are no differences to hear in such commodity parts.



Porsche said:


> Go to the dealer, check out a product, view and demo the product and waste a dealers time, than you start shopping for it and buy it from whoever will sell it the cheapest. You call or go by so and so dealer and ask a 1000 questions and listen and waste there time with no intention on buying it from them.


Given that an amp is a commodity, I see no need to "view" or "demo" one. I'm not even sure what kinds of questions one would ask about such a thing.


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## Slammed (Jan 27, 2006)

aworldcollision said:


> Muppets make better cookies than elves.


lies!!!!


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

Slammed said:


> lies!!!!


It can't be a moronic statement if it's accurate so....I got your vote, then?


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## Duckman (Aug 5, 2007)

I have always wondered whether the beater of the dead horse did so in the 
misguided understanding that there was still some chance that the horse 
would get up and continue working or whether the horse, now dead, had 
angered him so much while living that, frenzied, he couldn't stop himself 
from continuing to punish it, albeit symbolically.


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## stereojnky (Mar 17, 2008)

Genxx said:


> As Robert has stated before. You can get the software its just not handed out to every joe schmo that walks into a shop and buys a DSP6 or DC amp. If you are competent and have a clue what you are doing then you will have it released to you.
> 
> I see both points on this.
> 
> ...


Now that's just a load of b.s.

As I've stated before, THESE AMPS DO NOTHING THAT ANY OTHER HIGH END AMP and MY 9833 DOES, it's just not analog and there's no buttons to push or knobs to turn.

How many people do you know of will install/sell you some gear, that does the same things that these amps do, and replace speakers from OBVIOUS abuse? 

.....NOBODY.... that I know of anyway.

If you read the little warranty card that came with your comps and sub it should clearly explain that ABUSE is not covered only failure from defects. 

The point is, you don't sell someone a car and tell 'em they have to attend a class before you give 'em the keys. If they wreck it knowing full well what it's capable of, then it's their fault not the manufacturer's or the dealer's. And conversely, if the dealer shows you how to drive it and you still wreck it it's still not their fault.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

stereojnky said:


> Now that's just a load of b.s.
> 
> As I've stated before, THESE AMPS DO NOTHING THAT ANY OTHER HIGH END AMP and MY 9833 DOES, it's just not analog and there's no buttons to push or knobs to turn.
> 
> ...


Do you own a shop or know any shop owners? I have long time friends that have worked for many different shops and one that own's a B&M. I have also been around a ton of shops in the past 18 years. I have seen multiple times shops warranty items that were clearly user error.

Just a Simple Example:
I can remember around 1990 or 1991. Me and a buddy were building or trying out our first ported enclosure. The Port was not in yet but we had monted the subs. Began hammering the port in with a board over the port. The pressure it created pushed a RF Punch 15" to its limits and it was stuck at full excursion. Guess what I pulled it took it back and they warranted it.

I have seen bass heads destroy JL, Punch ect subs and shops warranty them. Do you think the dealer pays for that replacment hell no, its under warranty. It is at the dealers discretion to not warranty the item. Most will warranty a replacment the first time. 

If not like I said people start telling others your shop sucks, look they would not even warranty this or that. The general public is so clueless they do not know any better so they are like yep they suck I will never go to that shop.

*stereojnky-Do you have the software. If so how did you get it? *

THESE AMPS DO NOTHING THAT ANY OTHER HIGH END AMP---**** I need go check my other amps if they do what the DC Amps do.


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## sandman661 (Aug 12, 2008)

I have a big problem with these mfgs not covering their warranty if it was bought from an internet dealer...What is that??? if i buy a 2007 honda civic from a chevy dealer honda still honors their warranty??? You are covering your product for your customer...Should not matter where he gets the product as long as it isn't a fake...The mfg gets their money from the amp regardless even if it is a stolen amp off the truck or boat, insurance covers their loss so they were paid for that amp!!!! They just want to try and cut out as much R&R(repair or replace) even at the expense of customer satisfaction...

I understand trying to make it better for the B&M shops but they charge way too much for their products most times, sometimes a substansial amount over retail!!! They shouldn't try and make a killing off equipment, try and make it off of custom installs and tuning etc... If you do good work then great if not then maybe you shouldn't be in this industry...

I am sure that internet sellers sell just as many if not more product for a mfg then their authorized dealers, just isn't right...My opinion...


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## stereojnky (Mar 17, 2008)

Genxx said:


> Do you own a shop or know any shop owners? I have long time friends that have worked for many different shops and one that own's a B&M. I have also been around a ton of shops in the past 18 years. I have seen multiple times shops warranty items that were clearly user error.


This is great if they do that, I'm just saying that they shouldn't and shouldn't have to


Genxx said:


> Just a Simple Example:
> I can remember around 1990 or 1991. Me and a buddy were building or trying out our first ported enclosure. The Port was not in yet but we had monted the subs. Began hammering the port in with a board over the port. The pressure it created pushed a RF Punch 15" to its limits and it was stuck at full excursion. Guess what I pulled it took it back and they warranted it.
> 
> I have seen bass heads destroy JL, Punch ect subs and shops warranty them. Do you think the dealer pays for that replacment hell no, its under warranty. It is at the dealers discretion to not warranty the item. Most will warranty a replacment the first time.
> ...


First of all, if you're going to quote me quote me don't leave anything out. I think that was kind of childish to make it seem as if I was saying something that I am clearly not trying to say. (referring to your last statement) Second, I apologize, maybe I'm just naive because I've never returned something broken that was my fault expecting someone to clean up my mess. (unless that was covered)

I'm not trying to turn this into a pissing match just sharing my experiences and point of view. 

The only thing that I'm saying is that anybody can take an amp and a high end head unit with dsp capabilities ( time alignment, parametric e.q., etc.)and be able to do anything that you can do with one of these amps. I just don't see what the big deal is. Like I stated earlier in this post, the reason why I bought mine was because I wanted ALL of that stuff in one device. 

To answer your question again (already been posted)DIRECTLY QUOTED FROM PAGE #20
No disrespect to Robert as he has taken care of me and I greatly appreciate it.
I bought a used DC amp, bought authorized, seller provided the software. I did call Zapco to get the password for the software because seller forgot to provide it and all I got was " we don't provide the password over the phone". I asked if it could be emailed and the response was, " ..get it from the person you bought the amp from..."
Now granted, like the OP, I was a little impatient but I still think that is ridiculous especially considering that I know the amp was bought authorized and I provided the serial # to the guy. I'm all about protecting the dealers, and I buy from b and m when possible but this is just protecting the customer from himself. Very frustrating experience for a future lifetime customer. I've always loved Zapco but could never afford it until now.
And just so you know, the nearest dealer is over 2 hours away. And you use the software to adjust EVERYTHING on the amp including the gains. So yes you ABSOLUTELY DO NEED IT. Don't want to drive that far just to have my amps adjusted when there is nothing in there that i don't have in my 9833 or to put it in perspective, aW205 and h701 combo.
IMHO there should be some type of warning in BIG RED BOLD LETTERS in the package (ie... USE AT YOUR OWN RISK....etc)and before you use the software that you have to check " I AGREE TO THESE TERMS" and there's the end to your liability. And as far as support I would rather pay a fee to transfer ownership of an authorized bought product for receipt of upgrades to software from a site than to have to drive 2 hrs to get it even if I bought it there.
__________________Believe it or not, I'm on Zapco's side. I believe they have good motives but I just think they're going about it the wrong way.

In retrospect, if I had known then what I know now, I probably would have gone a different way with my system. I'm fine now but what happens when there's an update on the software? I (and everyone else who buys a secondhand DC amp) AM S.O.O.L.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

sandman661 said:


> I have a big problem with these mfgs not covering their warranty if it was bought from an internet dealer...What is that??? if i buy a 2007 honda civic from a chevy dealer honda still honors their warranty??? You are covering your product for your customer...Should not matter where he gets the product as long as it isn't a fake...The mfg gets their money from the amp regardless even if it is a stolen amp off the truck or boat, insurance covers their loss so they were paid for that amp!!!! They just want to try and cut out as much R&R(repair or replace) even at the expense of customer satisfaction...
> 
> I understand trying to make it better for the B&M shops but they charge way too much for their products most times, sometimes a substansial amount over retail!!! They shouldn't try and make a killing off equipment, try and make it off of custom installs and tuning etc... If you do good work then great if not then maybe you shouldn't be in this industry...
> 
> I am sure that internet sellers sell just as many if not more product for a mfg then their authorized dealers, just isn't right...My opinion...


Most vendors do not honor a warranty on internet gear because they view it as "2nd hand". You are no longer the original purchaser, and are not buying from a company where the vendor can track purchase dates, and production dates. They have no way to know if you are in warranty coverage, or if the "grey market" vendor is fudging the #'s. If I buy product from an unauthorized source, which I sometimes do, I do not expect a warranty. 

I don't know any B&M shops that charge *over* retail. Maybe retail, which is usually not the case either. Most shops charge MAP. This is "Minimum Advertised Price", and to be a dealer of *some *lines, you are required to adhere to these prices. Why? Because otherwise, one dealer would undercut everyone else, and therefore make all the sales. The manufacturers want everything to be about the product, and have customers get the same price almost anywhere they go. They also want to enable their dealers that promote, advertise, and get customers interested in their gear, to make a fair profit. I don't hear anyone here complaining about paying $1 for a bottle of coke that probably costs coke $.30 to make. Noone calls coke expensive or complains that they are making a profit. ****, I could get some CO2, some corn syrup, and a bunch of other crap and make my own. In large enough batches, probably cheaper than I buy coke for. I have no interest in spending my time that way though. 

I still remember the day when power was over $1 a watt, now you can get power, from a dealer, for $800 for a 1500 watt amp from a big name/well known manufacturer. You couldn't even find 1500 watt amps 10 years ago, and once you could, they were $1500 or more. ****, 10-12 years ago, you couldn't get a CD player for less than $300. 

Most brands want to create value in their product, and letting any discount house/internet retailer carry their gear, usually does not inspire confidence in quality. 

Take Apple for instance, I see noone complaining about Apple and their iPOD/Iphone. Apple is very selective about who carry's their products, and you cannot be a dealer for apple if you are a small operation. These things are also generally Unilaterally priced, meaning everyone sells them for the same amount. This means you never hear anyone bickering that the apple store is ridiculous, or that IPOD's are expensive. Ipod's offer a value for anyone who doesn't want to figure out a portable MP3 player on their own. Your average consumer can figure them out. They serve a purpose. Most people on here will be quick to jump on Apple and call them overpriced, and say that you can get a similar MP3 player for 1/2 the price, but will it have the same support that apple has? The same number of accesories that are compatable? 

Everyone has their place, and there is nothing wrong with buying on the internet, but IMO, people that buy in B&M stores are not idiots, and are not getting "ripped off". Not everyone on this planet wants to spend all day on a forum, or years learning what most of us know and understand. There are people that have other hobbies, play sports, work jobs, have kids, and devote their time elsewhere, but still want good sound. These people find a benefit in B&M stores. 

The educted enthusiast on the other hand (the majority of people on this forum), usually doesn't need 80% of the B&M's services and experience. Some of us even have more experience than a lot of the B&M stores out there. These people are a low % of the purchasers of audio gear. They can buy online, and get what they were looking for. They will also spend hours learning how to use it, and setting it up. (B&M customers will just ask their dealer to "show them how") These people enjoy learning, and want to know how it works. They also will try out ton's of combinations, and are constantly talking about, learning about, and experimenting with their gear. Not everyone wants to continually change equipment. Doing so sometimes ends up costing more than just buying everything from a B&M the first time. 

I'd compare them to a mechanic buying a car also. The average mechanic never purchases a brand new car. They understand the inner workings, and can repair an older car cheaply. Most consumers will go to a dealer, buy a new car and pay for someone elses expertise when it needs to be repaired, or want a warranty on the car because they can't fix it themselves. I don't think people that are not automotively inclined are automatically idiots. I don't consider people who buy new cars "morons". Some people invest their time elsewhere. 

Car audio is no different, and there are many different levels of entusiasts. Keep an open mind, and realize that just because it is at dealer MAP price, and is an A-stock, authorized, warrantied item, doesn't automatically make it a rip off for everyone.


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## stereojnky (Mar 17, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Most vendors do not honor a warranty on internet gear because they view it as "2nd hand". You are no longer the original purchaser, and are not buying from a company where the vendor can track purchase dates, and production dates. They have no way to know if you are in warranty coverage, or if the "grey market" vendor is fudging the #'s. If I buy product from an unauthorized source, which I sometimes do, I do not expect a warranty.
> 
> I don't know any B&M shops that charge *over* retail. Maybe retail, which is usually not the case either. Most shops charge MAP. This is "Minimum Advertised Price", and to be a dealer of *some *lines, you are required to adhere to these prices. Why? Because otherwise, one dealer would undercut everyone else, and therefore make all the sales. The manufacturers want everything to be about the product, and have customers get the same price almost anywhere they go. They also want to enable their dealers that promote, advertise, and get customers interested in their gear, to make a fair profit. I don't hear anyone here complaining about paying $1 for a bottle of coke that probably costs coke $.30 to make. Noone calls coke expensive or complains that they are making a profit. ****, I could get some CO2, some corn syrup, and a bunch of other crap and make my own. In large enough batches, probably cheaper than I buy coke for. I have no interest in spending my time that way though.
> 
> ...


Very well put sir.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Most vendors do not honor a warranty on internet gear because they view it as "2nd hand". You are no longer the original purchaser, and are not buying from a company where the vendor can track purchase dates, and production dates.


That is, of course, legally incorrect. (And retarded to think.) A product is second-hand after it has been opened for the first time. So long as we're talking about moving a sealed box between (re)sellers, it is still in the "stream of commerce" rather than in the hands of an end user. Note that I am only talking about boxes that remain factory sealed. Obviously, opening a package to remove the serial number, install a firmware update, or just to look at it changes the game.

If some vender were to try to pull that ******** on me, I'd find other people to whom they did that, retain a good law firm, and slap the offending vender with a class action so ****ing fast their head would spin. And carry it through to court to get an iron-clad precedent while making sure the vender goes bankrupt for their insolence to send a message. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> I don't hear anyone here complaining about paying $1 for a bottle of coke that probably costs coke $.30 to make. Noone calls coke expensive or complains that they are making a profit. ****, I could get some CO2, some corn syrup, and a bunch of other crap and make my own. In large enough batches, probably cheaper than I buy coke for. I have no interest in spending my time that way though.


Probably under three cents, actually. Which is why I own Coke (and Pepsico) stock!  

But that, of course, as you should know by now, is an _entirely different situation._ A more apt analogy would be that Store A buys Coke from Distributor D for thirty-eight cents a bottle, and sells it to consumers for a buck. Distributor B also sells Coke out the backdoor to "unauthorized" Store B for forty-six cents a bottle and Store B then turns around and sells it to End User X for eighty cents a bottle. End user A opens the bottle, and maybe it blows up or maybe it's just flat, whatever. They're a defect in the product. Coke can't wash their hands of responsibility for that bottle just because it was sold through a back-channel, as anyone with a nonzero number of brain cells floating about in her/his head damn well knows.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I still remember the day when power was over $1 a watt, now you can get power, from a dealer, for $800 for a 1500 watt amp from a big name/well known manufacturer. You couldn't even find 1500 watt amps 10 years ago, and once you could, they were $1500 or more. ****, 10-12 years ago, you couldn't get a CD player for less than $300.


And I still remember the day when I spent $5400 on a ****ty Dell laptop with a 13.3" screen, a 233mHz processor, 2 or 4 MB of RAM, and a whopping 4GB hard drive. (Or maybe it was only 3.2GB even.) And yet my current MacBook, including upgrades to 2GB of RAM and a 200MB hard drive, cost about $1200 or so. So what? All electronics have gotten cheaper over time in our lifetimes. And most of them have gotten better, though car amps are somewhat of an anomaly in that most of them are retreads of the same old multidecade-old designs rather than taking advantage of modern technology to be smaller, more power efficient, and more feature-laden. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> Take Apple for instance, I see noone complaining about Apple and their iPOD/Iphone. Apple is very selective about who carry's their products, and you cannot be a dealer for apple if you are a small operation. These things are also generally Unilaterally priced, meaning everyone sells them for the same amount. This means you never hear anyone bickering that the apple store is ridiculous, or that IPOD's are expensive.


If you buy a sealed iPod from an internet mail order business, it will carry a full warranty, so again you're talking about something that is entirely different from the topic you wish to discuss. (Because you're just wrong on fact about the topic you wish to discuss.)



WRX/Z28 said:


> Car audio is no different, and there are many different levels of entusiasts. Keep an open mind, and realize that just because it is at dealer MAP price, and is an A-stock, authorized, warrantied item, doesn't automatically make it a rip off for everyone.


Of course, nobody ever claimed otherwise. Remember, the topic at hand is an arrogant company who thinks that its customers are too stupid to use the products it happily sells them. Some (maybe most, considering the appalling value for money offered by said products) may truly be too stupid to use them. That is a separate issue.


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## sandman661 (Aug 12, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> That is, of course, legally incorrect. (And retarded to think.) A product is second-hand after it has been opened for the first time. So long as we're talking about moving a sealed box between (re)sellers, it is still in the "stream of commerce" rather than in the hands of an end user. Note that I am only talking about boxes that remain factory sealed. Obviously, opening a package to remove the serial number, install a firmware update, or just to look at it changes the game.
> 
> If some vender were to try to pull that ******** on me, I'd find other people to whom they did that, retain a good law firm, and slap the offending vender with a class action so ****ing fast their head would spin. And carry it through to court to get an iron-clad precedent while making sure the vender goes bankrupt for their insolence to send a message.
> 
> ...



100% agree, should not matter where you got it, and the way for a company to track product is to use serial #'s, The mfg should be able to know exactly who bought said product at what time etc... by the serial number of the product!!!! Once you buy said amp, you should have to register with mfg with copy of invoice,serial # etc...

mfgs will have to figure something out because internet shopping is here to stay...

Also, No company should try and save me from myself, There are a ton of people that do not know how to adjust their computers either, but you do not see dell saying, thanks for the money but since you are a stupid customer and not certified, we will only give you the software to run this computer if you have a degree from harvard...only other option is to pay a certified professional to rape you for his services...Thanks but no thanks...Zappco FTL


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> That is, of course, legally incorrect. (And retarded to think.) A product is second-hand after it has been opened for the first time. So long as we're talking about moving a sealed box between (re)sellers, it is still in the "stream of commerce" rather than in the hands of an end user. Note that I am only talking about boxes that remain factory sealed. Obviously, opening a package to remove the serial number, install a firmware update, or just to look at it changes the game.
> 
> If some vend*o*r were to try to pull that ******** on me, I'd find other people to whom they did that, retain a good law firm, and slap the offending vender with a class action so ****ing fast their head would spin. And carry it through to court to get an iron-clad precedent while making sure the vend*o*r goes bankrupt for their insolence to send a message.
> 
> ...


Hey, if you're going to quote me, and disagree, would you mind at least quoting everything, so things aren't taken out of context?

If it's legally incorrect to consider it second hand if it's not purchased through proper channels, you should definately sue some of the company's that do this. GL with that. Let me know how it turns out. 
They view it as the same thing as purchasing it BNIB off a forum member here. They are not the manufacturer, or even a distributor, so there is no way to be sure the warrany applies. This is the same as someone who buys a product brand new, waits 3 years to install it, and then blows it up the next day. The product has only been used for 1 day, but it's 3 years and 1 day old, should it still be warrantied? Even if you beleive it should, it's not. 

These transshippers are not buying from a proper distributor, and are often aquiring goods from other vendors. Most of these vendors are not setup to do this. 

Imagine I go around and pick up a particular product on closeout from every vendor I can find. I buy the item to turn around and resell it. When I resell it, would the warranty apply to the new owner? No, it's 2nd hand. The item may be NIB, but it's still 2nd hand. 

For the coke analogy. Where's the proof it was a bottle of coke? Maybe the bottle of coke was actually opened, poured out, replaced with acme cola, and then resealed and sold as coke. The company selling the bottle is not buying from coke, so who's to say. 

The computer analogy. That was my point. Electronics have gotten cheaper, but people still think they are being ripped off. You seem to think that noone should make a fair profit as a dealer. (save me the gouging speech, dealers are obviosly not turning huge profits, or everyone would be opening one, and none would be closing)

Ipod wise, GL finding an ipod for significantly less from a non-authorized apple seller in the first place. Then good luck getting apple to warranty it if you do. Let me know how that turns out for you too. 

The "retarded company" who thinks their end user is too dumb to use their product: Have you seen the average consumer? You must live where everyone is educated, loves audio equipment, and everyone spends hours using everything correctly. Unfortunately, in the area's of my travels (daily from Long Island down to Delaware) this customer is the exception to the rule, and not the norm. Most of these exceptions happen to frequent forums such as this one. Hence the reason most forum members are outraged by Zapco's practice here. 

I beleive that Zapco is merely trying to preserve it's reputation by ensuring customers set up their gear properly. They do this by making sure the retailer determines if the end user can properly set up the software or not. I'm telling you for fact, most consumers can not. Most consumers have no idea what you are talking about if you mention Time Alignment, Q, crossover frequencys, or even how to properly set a gain (there are people on this forum who don't know how to set gains either, I watch them post about it sometimes). Zapco wants their customers to understand what makes their products special. They also are looking to avoid the customer that uses their product improperly, ends up with poor results, and tells every one of their friends how much Zapco sucks. 

Unfortunately, I agree with you that most customers who are looking for this software, are probably the more educated consumer, but for every one that isn't, and ends up with poor results, they tell 10 of their friends.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

^^^^Agree 100% on your points Sir.

For people that like to twist anologies in this thread----

You go buy a new car. It uses a OBDI or OBDII ECU which is tuned at the factory. The dealer has access to program it and trouble shoot. You could get more HP by a little re-tuning it. Hope adjusting the turbo boost from 9psi to 15psi or adjusting the fuel curve doesn't hurt anything. So then if we follow some of the anologies made by some, then they should issue the software so every guy that buys a new car can tune it. 

Sounds like a greta idea to me. Now all the Honda guys can adjust their VTEC setting.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

i can't believe this thread is still going.

the selling point of the dc amps is the software. ...at least it was for me.

...and i had ZERO problems getting what i needed directly from robert - even though he knew i bought my amps "illegally".


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

sandman661 said:


> 100% agree, should not matter where you got it, and the way for a company to track product is to use serial #'s, The mfg should be able to know exactly who bought said product at what time etc... by the serial number of the product!!!! Once you buy said amp, you should have to register with mfg with copy of invoice,serial # etc...
> 
> mfgs will have to figure something out because internet shopping is here to stay...
> 
> Also, No company should try and save me from myself, There are a ton of people that do not know how to adjust their computers either, but you do not see dell saying, thanks for the money but since you are a stupid customer and not certified, we will only give you the software to run this computer if you have a degree from harvard...only other option is to pay a certified professional to rape you for his services...Thanks but no thanks...Zappco FTL


How are serial #'s going to track anything. They only tell when the product was made, not sold. Many internet retailers deface serial numbers as well. 

Internet shopping is definately here to stay. Go buy it from crutchfield. There is a difference between internet shopping, and grey market transshiper shopping. 

I don't think it's necessarily saving you from yourself, I think it's saving Zapco from you. (Not necessarily you, you may be able to use the software yourself) I think most dealers will provide you the software if you seem to have any clue how to use it. I doubt any will make it a requirement that they "rape you for their services" in order to have the software. That defeats the point of providing it to you in the first place.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

benny z said:


> i can't believe this thread is still going.
> 
> the selling point of the dc amps is the software. ...at least it was for me.
> 
> ...and i had ZERO problems getting what i needed directly from robert - even though he knew i bought my amps "illegally".


See? You have a brain, and were able to obtain the software because of this fact.


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## Dillyyo (Feb 15, 2008)

Holy shat man!! Don made a comment that he couldn't believe this thread was still going, but this is ridiculous! I apologize for starting the fire, but I didn't know it was started in a methane gas field!


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## phoenix (Jul 19, 2008)

the problem i have with ZAPCO is their inability to take any responsibity in unathourised sales, and then refusing to repair factory defects. they even refuse to repair even if you pay. that's fvcking ********. i understand they need to look out for their dealers but they need to also understand that not everybody has an authorized dealer near them. some people live out in the sticks. i'm trying to remember this tech's name at ZAPCO.... he told me somebody broke in to their warehouse and stole $400,000 worth of inventory and they tracked some of the equipment in canada. totall ********. these guys are just trying to make a dollar and turning their backs on the local shops. the business isn't doing to good right now. gotta make a dollar one way or another. atleast if ZAPCO is gonna sale to authorized dealers they make transactions with unauthorized dealers they need to offer a limited warranty or something. stop fvcking lying ZAPCO!!!!!!!


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

We didn't start the fire. It was always burning since the world was turning...


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

phoenix said:


> the problem i have with ZAPCO is their inability to take any responsibity in unathourised sales, and then refusing to repair factory defects. they even refuse to repair even if you pay. that's fvcking ********. i understand they need to look out for their dealers but they need to also understand that not everybody has an authorized dealer near them. some people live out in the sticks. i'm trying to remember this tech's name at ZAPCO.... he told me somebody broke in to their warehouse and stole $400,000 worth of inventory and they tracked some of the equipment in canada. totall ********. these guys are just trying to make a dollar and turning their backs on the local shops. the business isn't doing to good right now. gotta make a dollar one way or another. atleast if ZAPCO is gonna sale to authorized dealers they make transactions with unauthorized dealers they need to offer a limited warranty or something. stop fvcking lying ZAPCO!!!!!!!


Dave is that you? I looked at some of your other post and they just seem all to familiar. Good to have you back here bud. I have missed all the great post that you have some input on. 

Um as far as your post on here....Even if I sit here and explain things.....for the 100th time it does not really matter.....your going to call me a liar anyways...bla bla bla......


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## phoenix (Jul 19, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> Dave is that you? I looked at some of your other post and they just seem all to familiar. Good to have you back here bud. I have missed all the great post that you have some input on.
> 
> Um as far as your post on here....Even if I sit here and explain things.....for the 100th time it does not really matter.....your going to call me a liar anyways...bla bla bla......



nope... wrong guy. please explain. there is a reason people are hating on ZAPCO. wether y'all make a good product, and your tech support is great... a mojority of us disaggreee with your policy.... sooo, deal with it buddy


i think your products are over priced aswell...


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## drtool (Nov 26, 2007)

Zapco and Dillon Precision Products are the only 2 business that I rate A1. Having been a dealer for non audio product the only place Zapco needs to clean up is the pipeline to Wofers etc. Thats what the sn# is for for, So Zapco knows who was the first dealer to handle the product. That is why the sn# is defaced. Robert has stated he will give you the software if needed. I bet not one person who has run there own successful business is complaining about the way Zapco has set there policy.


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## phoenix (Jul 19, 2008)

drtool said:


> Zapco and Dillon Precision Products are the only 2 business that I rate A1. Having been a dealer for non audio product the only place Zapco needs to clean up is the pipeline to Wofers etc. Thats what the sn# is for for, So Zapco knows who was the first dealer to handle the product. That is why the sn# is defaced. Robert has stated he will give you the software if needed. I bet not one person who has run there own successful business is complaining about the way Zapco has set there policy.



robert will deny till death that ZAPCO knew anything about their products being bought second hand from woofersect.com i think it's extremly unprofessional and people should look somewhere else to buy from. ZAPCO is flat out liars. call dave or mike at woofers ect about this. they will tell you straight up about what's going on. this **** is really starting to piss me off!!!


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## ChicoOG (Nov 27, 2007)

As I said 5 pages ago, I've never received better service from ANY other company, audio/non-audio. ZAPCO Rocks!!! Excellent products, extraordinary customer service. 

And, I did hear from Mike who apologized profusely for the few claiming to be connected to woofers and disparaging ZAPCO...he was embarrassed and made a very public apology in writing, somewhere around x-mas last year.

So, it seems woofers is clear, Zapco is clear, it's those who can't get a superior product, at a cut rate deal, and still get superior service/support that are pissed. It is interesting and I'm sure many will find this true, it is those who are screaming the loudest, pointing A finger and accusing others that have their own issues they are trying to avoid or put on others...


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## phoenix (Jul 19, 2008)

ChicoOG said:


> As I said 5 pages ago, I've never received better service from ANY other company, audio/non-audio. ZAPCO Rocks!!! Excellent products, extraordinary customer service.
> 
> And, I did hear from Mike who apologized profusely for the few claiming to be connected to woofers and disparaging ZAPCO...he was embarrassed and made a very public apology in writing, somewhere around x-mas last year.
> 
> So, it seems woofers is clear, Zapco is clear, it's those who can't get a superior product, at a cut rate deal, and still get superior service/support that are pissed. It is interesting and I'm sure many will find this true, it is those who are screaming the loudest, pointing A finger and accusing others that have their own issues they are trying to avoid or put on others...



wrong....


the issue is....


ZAPCO IS FVCKING LIARS


i can get zapco for dirt cheap authorized with a full warranty. my rant has nothing to do with buying their crap from a flea market and gettng upset because i can't get a warranty. i have problem with robert and mike exploiting woofer ect's name on their forum and totally denying that they knew anything about the direct sales. 

ZAPCO is just like TIME SHARE's.... as long as you buy high, make them and their dealer happy they will take care of you. if you buy it from an un-authorized dealer, but they know who they are... your fvcked. you have to join the mile high club to get a reach-around that you deserve.


ZAPCO= no grease


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Hey, if you're going to quote me, and disagree, would you mind at least quoting everything, so things aren't taken out of context?


Yes, I would. It looks stupid. You should learn how to break things up so that points match up with what you're replying to. 

And you're very wrong to correct "vender" to "vendor." It makes you look stupid. "Vender" is a correct spelling, per the _New Yorker_ style manual. I prefer it.



WRX/Z28 said:


> If it's legally incorrect to consider it second hand if it's not purchased through proper channels, you should definately sue some of the company's that do this. GL with that. Let me know how it turns out.


Do you have any precedent, or can you site any or sections of the UCC or Restatement (Second) of Contracts (not all law, but strong persuasive authority) that prove me wrong, or are you just blowing smoke?



WRX/Z28 said:


> They view it as the same thing as purchasing it BNIB off a forum member here.


They can view it as whatever the hell they want. "Stronger" parties will always try to strong-arm "weaker" parties into accepting less than their full legal rights. Problem can arise when the stronger party miscalculates and gets their ass kicked, though...

(And if that forum member is a car audio business, they should view it the same, i.e. as an initial purchase. Then it becomes a deal between a merchant and a consumer.) 



WRX/Z28 said:


> They are not the manufacturer, or even a distributor, so there is no way to be sure the warrany applies. This is the same as someone who buys a product brand new, waits 3 years to install it, and then blows it up the next day. The product has only been used for 1 day, but it's 3 years and 1 day old, should it still be warrantied? Even if you beleive it should, it's not.


You don't understand the fundamental difference between transactions as between merchants and transactions between merchants and non-merchants, do you? Different rules apply to the two situations. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> Imagine I go around and pick up a particular product on closeout from every vendor I can find. I buy the item to turn around and resell it. When I resell it, would the warranty apply to the new owner? No, it's 2nd hand. The item may be NIB, but it's still 2nd hand.


If you're a merchant, it is not. The situation is analogous to a consumer buying product, brand new, that's been sitting on a merchant's shelf for 3 years, the warranty applies from the moment the product left the stream of commerce. Even if it had been discontinued three years ago. And "authorized" or "non-authorized" are quite irrelevant. So long as it's moving between merchants, and is unaltered in any way, the ball's still in the air.



WRX/Z28 said:


> For the coke analogy. Where's the proof it was a bottle of coke? Maybe the bottle of coke was actually opened, poured out, replaced with acme cola, and then resealed and sold as coke. The company selling the bottle is not buying from coke, so who's to say.


Oh come the **** on. Nobody would do that to make a few cents, and nobody's pirating overpriced car amps with technology from yesterday and two decades ago. You're trying to do what Big Pharma is trying to do with Canadian drugs, build fear when there is no grounds for it in order to maintain artificial markups. It's really quite desperate, and quite sad.



WRX/Z28 said:


> The computer analogy. That was my point. Electronics have gotten cheaper, but people still think they are being ripped off.


It's not price-performance relative vs. yesterday that matters, but relative to today's competition. Frankly, anyone who buys one of those Zapco amps at 25% of MSRP price is still getting ripped off, resale value excluded. There's nothing about that commodity product that justifies a high price.



WRX/Z28 said:


> You seem to think that noone should make a fair profit as a dealer. (save me the gouging speech, dealers are obviosly not turning huge profits, or everyone would be opening one, and none would be closing)


I couldn't give a damn how much profit people make, actually. I'm very happy to pay for added value. Admittedly, I see no reason to pad the pockets of someone who adds no value for me. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> Ipod wise, GL finding an ipod for significantly less from a non-authorized apple seller in the first place. Then good luck getting apple to warranty it if you do. Let me know how that turns out for you too.


You're just speculating, and really don't have anything to base it on. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> The "retarded company" who thinks their end user is too dumb to use their product: Have you seen the average consumer? You must live where everyone is educated, loves audio equipment, and everyone spends hours using everything correctly.
> I beleive that Zapco is merely trying to preserve it's reputation by ensuring customers set up their gear properly. They do this by making sure the retailer determines if the end user can properly set up the software or not.


Of course, most dealers lack the education, equipment, or competence to really get the most out of the gear either, so you don't really have a point here.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I'm telling you for fact, most consumers can not.


I don't disagree. However, those people will probably not _try_ to make those adjustments anyway. The software will sit on the internet undownloaded or in a pile of CDs somewhere. So again, you have no argument.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Zapco wants their customers to understand what makes their products special.


Given that there's nothing that makes them special, that doesn't mean much. We're talking about commodity parts here. One fewer band of parametric EQ and superior amp technology for mobile use (smaller, more energy efficient) from Kenwood costs what, a fifth as much as the oversized, overpriced Zapco crap?



Genxx said:


> ^^^^Agree 100% on your points Sir.
> 
> For people that like to twist anologies in this thread----
> 
> You go buy a new car. It uses a OBDI or OBDII ECU which is tuned at the factory. The dealer has access to program it and trouble shoot. You could get more HP by a little re-tuning it. Hope adjusting the turbo boost from 9psi to 15psi or adjusting the fuel curve doesn't hurt anything. So then if we follow some of the anologies made by some, then they should issue the software so every guy that buys a new car can tune it.


If car ECU's were tuned by mechanics for each car, you'd have a good analogy, but they're not so you don't. (Then again, when one has no case, as you guys don't, it's pretty damn hard to come up with a relevant, sensical analogy.) Even excluding the regulatory issues, which of course loom huge, you're talking about something tuned by engineers with sophisticated electronics and measurement gear to strike an appropriate balance. By contrast, car-fi dealers don't generally have the gear or the knowledge to optimize the use of any equipment they sell. And, of course, anyone can access a code-reader to find out what's gone awry should the check engine light come on without having to buy a car dealership's time...


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## phoenix (Jul 19, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> It's not price-performance relative vs. yesterday that matters, but relative to today's competition. Frankly, anyone who buys one of those Zapco amps at 25% of MSRP price is still getting ripped off, resale value excluded. There's nothing about that commodity product that justifies a high price.



i totally second that motion!!!


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## ChicoOG (Nov 27, 2007)

phoenix said:


> wrong....
> 
> 
> the issue is....
> ...


Dude, take a deep breath, take your meds, and then let's review what you just said...O.K.?

In your previous post you said "call dave or mike at woofers ect about this. they will tell you straight up about what's going on." Explicitly implying they would support your accusations.

Now you say:

"i have problem with robert and mike exploiting woofer ect's name on their forum and totally denying that they knew anything about the direct sales." Explicitly implying they are in collusion.

Which one is it? 

Let's see, what is the next step in the story line...oh yeah, you have some secret stuff that will show the world how sinister and corrupt everything is...somehow you are our saviour...something dramatic like that.

This should be entertaining


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## phoenix (Jul 19, 2008)

ChicoOG said:


> Dude, take a deep breath, take your meds, and then let's review what you just said...O.K.?
> 
> In your previous post you said "call dave or mike at woofers ect about this. they will tell you straight up about what's going on." Explicitly implying they would support your accusations.
> 
> ...



there is a mike at ZAPCO and WOOFERS ECT... not the same person.

let's put it this way... i know of an authorized dealer in TX for ZAPCO who sells more merch for them than any dealer. i met him at a tattoo convention on a whim, wasn't even planned. i noticed he had a ZAPCO screen saver on his lap top. we hung out in his suite after the convention. he gave me the full run down on ZAPCO. with all this disturbing info, i was gonna just grin and bear it, but when i seen ROBERT's lame little accusations on the ZAPCO forum it set me off.

of course people will say" let's see the proof"... blah blah blah" how could i? you think buddy is gonna fvck his money just to be a saint? i don't think so. i know after talking to him i want never buy zapco again. through him and Jeff Smith here in atlanta i can get some pretty sweet ZAPCO deals. i choose not to. can't stand the sorry FVCK's. till my last breath i will bash ZAPCO. i know they want be going anywhere because of the nutt tugging, bandwagon, i got my daddies money yuppie's will still pay for ZAPCO's over-priced hifonics crap...


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Yes, I would. It looks stupid. You should learn how to break things up so that points match up with what you're replying to.
> 
> And you're very wrong to correct "vender" to "vendor." It makes you look stupid. "Vender" is a correct spelling, per the _New Yorker_ style manual. I prefer it.
> 
> ...


I broke everything down in order. I wasn't asking you not to break it up, I was asking you to include everything. You seem to only quote bits and pieces and attack them. IMO, you should quote everything or nothing at all, but I guess there's nothing I can do to stop you, or change your mind. I just thought I would ask politely. 

I don't know anyone who uses the spelling Vender, but to each is own. It seems to me that it is much more acceptable in the marketplace to use the spelling Vendor. You are right though that both exist, so I apologize for correcting you. 

Do you have any precedents that prove me wrong? I don't feel the need, nor have the time to look for it myself, but I would use common sense and say that if this were illegal, there would be more consumers trying to sue manufacturers. At the very least, more people would be able to strong arm company's into warranty coverage. Since this is not the case, and does not happen, I feel pretty confident that there is no legal recourse available. Even if there were, it would be cost prohibitive, and therefore your point is moot. If the manufacturers are getting away with it, and enforcing it, then it's a valid concern for why you wouldn't want to buy "unauthorized". 

So lets say that I go get a business licence, and a Tax ID #. I'm now a merchant. So this makes it ok for me to purchase blow out/clearance items. Resell them, and then the warranty is still enforceable? I follow that I am not a merchant, but I don't see how it changes if I am. Hell, what happens if a merchant is selling used gear, maybe even claiming it's new? What about refurbs that are not disclosed as refurbs? I actually sold JL refurbs in the past, but they were disclosed as refurbs. We used them briefly to compete with the internet, but after seeing lower reliability, we stopped. We as a brick and mortar store bore the brunt of the customer's unhappiness, something Internet retailers can mostly avoid (with a few exceptions). 

Probably true that noone would go to those lengths to pirate coke. ID, Dynaudio, Focal, Tein, I've seen copies of all of the above. Should Tein take the person who bought off of ebay's word, and look at their ebay receipt for warranty coverage on a knockoff? Who's to say what's counterfeit, and what's not? What if it's a really good counterfeit, to the point that you can't tell, but it didn't originate from tein? Manufacturers don't have to deal with this if you have a receipt from a dealer. They have accurate records, and will not be selling counterfeits. 

Value wise, I see the guarantee that i'm buying a legit, A-stock, authorized product as a value. Not everyone does, and i'm sure you don't. Nothing wrong with that either. Your oppinion on this doesn't apply to everyone though, no matter how much you wish it did. BTW, what added value does the local supermarket add to your bottle of coke? 

I wasn't trying to compare yesterday vs. today, more saying that gear is cheaper than ever, but people still think it isn't. 

For my commodity pieces, I beleive better quality components are worth paying for, as is better heat dissipation, better overall engineering. Longevity is key. One of the things that make PPI's Art series so popular is that 12+ years later, there are ton's of them still kicking. I'd pay extra for my commodity part to do that. 

I'm not speculating about Ipod, I've had customers in this situation with apple, unfortunately I don't have any in writing proof at the moment, so i'll drop it. However, try to find a brand new Ipod for more than 5-10% off apples price. It's nearly impossible. Refurbs or older models are your only choice if you want to pay less. 

I still disagree with your statements about dealers being uneducated on their products. Many of us sit through multiple vendor trainings, and speak with the engineers directly. Some of us learn things about products that the consumer wouldn't hear about, or understand. Maybe you think you have more of an education on the equipment, and maybe you do, but again, the average consumer does not. Get it through your head that you ARE NOT THE AVERAGE CONSUMER. Neither am I for that matter. 

Zapco uses some pretty nice processing in their amps. Something that few other manufacturers do. They also use IMO superior componentry in their build (i'm sure you'll debate this). There are a ton of their older amps running around right now, proving that they know how to make a solid amp. This add's value to me, zapco's reputation among consumers is good, despite what this thread would have you think. 

Kenwood amps? The excelon's? You should definately go buy a few of those boat anchors. If you do, you'll shortly become a beleiver in a quality built amplifier. It will happen shortly after the amp fails. They seem to have some issues at the moment. Again, this illustrates that a company with an excellent reliability reputation may have a reason for their price tag. I don't pretend to be an engineer, but I know a few things about amps. Quality of components goes a long way. 

In short, forum members are not the average consumers, and most manufacturers do not cater to us. This is simply because we are the minority of end users. I know you don't want to beleive this, but it's 100% true. This is why some of us are baffled by the way certain manufactuers (not just zapco) operate, and are upset by their policys. We are being held acountable for the stupidity of the average consumer. We are being penalized the same that they are. Unfortunately, until there is some tried and true way to bring every consumer to the bare minimum level of the average forum member, most manufacturers will not change this.


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

phoenix said:


> there is a mike at ZAPCO and WOOFERS ECT... not the same person.
> 
> let's put it this way... i know of an authorized dealer in TX for ZAPCO who sells more merch for them than any dealer. i met him at a tattoo convention on a whim, wasn't even planned. i noticed he had a ZAPCO screen saver on his lap top. we hung out in his suite after the convention. he gave me the full run down on ZAPCO. with all this disturbing info, i was gonna just grin and bear it, but when i seen ROBERT's lame little accusations on the ZAPCO forum it set me off.
> 
> of course people will say" let's see the proof"... blah blah blah" how could i? you think buddy is gonna fvck his money just to be a saint? i don't think so. i know after talking to him i want never buy zapco again. through him and Jeff Smith here in atlanta i can get some pretty sweet ZAPCO deals. i choose not to. can't stand the sorry FVCK's. till my last breath i will bash ZAPCO. i know they want be going anywhere because of the nutt tugging, bandwagon, i got my daddies money yuppie's will still pay for ZAPCO's over-priced hifonics crap...


See every0one here may remember our good friend Phoenix here under his previous name. I will put up a little link to help all you remember how much fun he was. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34571&highlight=lust+decay

Im curious to know who that dealer is in Texas. Cant think of one dealer doing the numbers your talking about....oh wait thats right Im a liar


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

phoenix said:


> fvck off robert... loser!!!


Glad to see you actually read some of the post.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

phoenix said:


> there is a mike at ZAPCO and WOOFERS ECT... not the same person.
> 
> let's put it this way... i know of an authorized dealer in TX for ZAPCO who sells more merch for them than any dealer. i met him at a tattoo convention on a whim, wasn't even planned. i noticed he had a ZAPCO screen saver on his lap top. we hung out in his suite after the convention. he gave me the full run down on ZAPCO. with all this disturbing info, i was gonna just grin and bear it, but when i seen ROBERT's lame little accusations on the ZAPCO forum it set me off.
> 
> of course people will say" let's see the proof"... blah blah blah" how could i? you think buddy is gonna fvck his money just to be a saint? i don't think so. i know after talking to him i want never buy zapco again. through him and Jeff Smith here in atlanta i can get some pretty sweet ZAPCO deals. i choose not to. can't stand the sorry FVCK's. till my last breath i will bash ZAPCO. i know they want be going anywhere because of the nutt tugging, bandwagon, i got my daddies money yuppie's will still pay for ZAPCO's over-priced hifonics crap...


Is there a point to anything you are saying? Zapco sucks because they sell to vendors you don't think they should sell to? I'm missing it. I'm sure you'll flame me next, but I seriously want to know what your point is.


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## phoenix (Jul 19, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Is there a point to anything you are saying? Zapco sucks because they sell to vendors you don't think they should sell to? I'm missing it. I'm sure you'll flame me next, but I seriously want to know what your point is.



it's pretty simple... they refuse to admit to selling to authorised dealers that they know sell to un-authorised dealers. got it? good...


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## ChicoOG (Nov 27, 2007)

phoenix said:


> there is a mike at ZAPCO and WOOFERS ECT... not the same person.
> 
> let's put it this way... i know of an authorized dealer in TX for ZAPCO who sells more merch for them than any dealer. i met him at a tattoo convention on a whim, wasn't even planned. i noticed he had a ZAPCO screen saver on his lap top. we hung out in his suite after the convention. he gave me the full run down on ZAPCO. with all this disturbing info, i was gonna just grin and bear it, but when i seen ROBERT's lame little accusations on the ZAPCO forum it set me off.
> 
> of course people will say" let's see the proof"... blah blah blah" how could i? you think buddy is gonna fvck his money just to be a sait? i don't think so. i know after talking to him i want never buy zapco again. through him and jeff smith here in atlanta i can get some pretty sweet ZAPCO deals. i choose not to. can't stand the sorry FVCK's. till my last breath i will bash ZAPCO. i know they want be going anywhere because of the nutt tugging, bandwagon, i got my daddies money yuppie's will still pay for ZAPCO's over-priced hifonics crap...


O.K., so let me get this straight:

The guy you met at a tatoo convention who has a Zapco screen saver and continues to work with them is cool

Jeff Smith is an avid Zapco supporter

Mike from woofers etc..., said in public in writing he's cool

I'm cool, as are many others

And your statement is "'till my last breath I will bash Zapco" sound very irrational and mellow dramatic

So the only common denominator is you...everyone else has moved on and continued civil relationships.

What other mystery people have you met with in "suites" or back alleys or smokey bars that you want to tell us about? It's sounding like one of those psycho drama's...

So what is the next part of the story? I can't wait


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

phoenix said:


> it's pretty simple... they refuse to admit to selling to authorised dealers that they know sell to un-authorised dealers. got it? good...


And even if this were true, how does this affect you? What about this possiblity makes you so angry? Does it mean they have inferior product? Does it mean they have inferior customer service? 

The only way that I can see this affecting you, would be if you were a zapco dealer that was being undercut by Woofers ETC. If this is the case, this is definately not the right place for you to take it out. I know I personally don't think anything you are saying would sway me from buying a Zapco product in the future.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

phoenix said:


> robert, you are a fvcking *******. has it occured to you that i am not whoever the fvck you think i am? i'm not the only person here who can't stand you or your company. trying to pull a rabitt out of hat. it's not working buddy.


Your point and your feelings have been expressed. Now move on. Theres no need to continue this crap here. We all know how you feel and do not need to hear anymore.


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## phoenix (Jul 19, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> And even if this were true, how does this affect you? What about this possiblity makes you so angry? Does it mean they have inferior product? Does it mean they have inferior customer service?
> 
> The only way that I can see this affecting you, would be if you were a zapco dealer that was being undercut by Woofers ETC. If this is the case, this is definately not the right place for you to take it out. I know I personally don't think anything you are saying would sway me from buying a Zapco product in the future.



it's the thought that counts... knowing that their fvcking liars pisses me the fvck off. let's say your mother was your father's daughter, but your father's wife acted like you came from her vagina.... then one day they told you the truth... would you be mad? do you have the right to be mad? it didn't hurt you. you ate good, went to good schools, had a nice home, and got goof head from your sister. wtf?!!!!


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## phoenix (Jul 19, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> Your point and your feelings have been expressed. Now move on. Theres no need to continue this crap here. We all know how you feel and do not need to hear anymore.



i need to quit because you sell their over-priced crap?


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

phoenix said:


> it's the thought that counts... knowing that their fvcking liars pisses me the fvck off. let's say your mother was your father's daughter, but your father's wife acted like you came from her vagina.... then one day they told you the truth... would you be mad? do you have the right to be mad? it didn't hurt you. you ate good, went to good schools, had a nice home, and got goof head from your sister. wtf?!!!!


Uhm.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

phoenix said:


> i need to quit because you sell their over-priced crap?


You need to quit because you're only point seems to be that you hate Zapco, because they are liars. If that's it, and you've expressed your feelings, what else needs to be said? "Fvck zapco" again for the 10th time?


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## phoenix (Jul 19, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Uhm.



dude.... your dumbass thinks because ZAPCO offers excelent customer service to jackasses dumb enough to pay full msrp, that it's ok for them to lie to me and everybody else. get a life. your really starting to piss me the fvck off too. fvcking idiot!!!!


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## phoenix (Jul 19, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> You need to quit because you're only point seems to be that you hate Zapco, because they are liars. If that's it, and you've expressed your feelings, what else needs to be said? "Fvck zapco" again for the 10th time?



no.... FVCK YOU TILL THE END OF TIME


SHUT YOUR CUM DUMPSTER AND GET OFF ZAPCO'S NUTTZ!!!


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

phoenix said:


> dude.... your dumbass thinks because ZAPCO offers excelent customer service to jackasses dumb enough to pay full msrp, that it's ok for them to lie to me and everybody else. get a life. your really starting to piss me the fvck off too. fvcking idiot!!!!


"fvck" anyone else?  

PS. I don't own any Zapco gear, nor have I ever. I don't sell Zapco either. I beleive I am unbiased here.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

phoenix said:


> i need to quit because you sell their over-priced crap?


No. My relationship with Zapco has absolutely Nothing to do with it. In fact that is why I stayed out of this thread and watched from a distance.

Your posts are not only irritating, but offensive. I will not tolerate them. You NEED to move on. Your point and feelings have been expressed, numerous times I might add.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

phoenix said:


> no.... FVCK YOU TILL THE END OF TIME
> 
> 
> SHUT YOUR CUM DUMPSTER AND GET OFF ZAPCO'S NUTTZ!!!





phoenix said:


> dude.... your dumbass thinks because ZAPCO offers excelent customer service to jackasses dumb enough to pay full msrp, that it's ok for them to lie to me and everybody else. get a life. your really starting to piss me the fvck off too. fvcking idiot!!!!


This is way more than enough for me.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

6spdcoupe said:


> This is way more than enough for me.


Beat you to it


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

ca90ss said:


> Beat you to it


 I saw that. Focker.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> I saw that. Focker.


Don't you mean "Fvcker"?


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

Don, would you forward my PM



ca90ss said:


> Beat you to it





6spdcoupe said:


> I saw that. Focker.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Don't you mean "Fvcker"?


Meh, they all work.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

fredridge said:


> Don, would you forward my PM


Done sir !


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Not for long.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

6spdcoupe said:


> Not for long.


Beat you again


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## ChicoOG (Nov 27, 2007)

phoenix said:


> no.... FVCK YOU TILL THE END OF TIME
> 
> 
> SHUT YOUR CUM DUMPSTER AND GET OFF ZAPCO'S NUTTZ!!!


Man, you are foaming at the mouth angry....Where have you been since your last episode? Do they have a 24 hour crisis line you can call? Your pattern is very predictable. I'm waiting for the big expose and count down, that was kind of fun last time. You are completely irrational. Any comment/argument someone makes, you will twist and turn and redirect or whatever else it takes to keep people guessing, off-balance, and trying to figure you out.

I apologize to everyone else for having to endure this...I deal with this kind of stuff everyday on the job.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

ca90ss said:


> Beat you again


Im old, cut me some slack !


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

you are good sir - I bet you figured it out by location

wonder who our next newest member will be



ca90ss said:


> Beat you again


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

ip check can tell who/when he joined.


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## ChicoOG (Nov 27, 2007)

fredridge said:


> you are good sir - I bet you figured it out by location
> 
> wonder who our next newest member will be


Man, you guys made that happen quick, are you going to close the thread down to?...it doesn't deserve to live

Did you figure out who he is?


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## d5sc (Aug 14, 2007)

For some unknown reason, I have a hunch that this maybe tied to someone who has made very negative comments in the past on this forum (note the location):

http://diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27315&highlight=kennyg&page=

There is a strong possibility that I am wrong, however, the MO and the use of profanity and personal attacks is very similar.


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## atsaubrey (Jan 10, 2007)

Sorry that i dint read a whole lot of this crap....crap I figured out soon enough. Zapco is like a fine wine...if you will, they are some of the products out there but nothing is "better". I think it all comes down to customer service with your fine wine, and the customer service is TOP NOTCH. I have talked to alot of guys in this biz but, Robert, Bob, and Jason are some of the kewlest cats I have ever met. I am a long time and will be forever a dedicated fan of Zapco! They are one of the few companies that have not went the profit over quality buisness plan, they to this day say "you get what you pay for" without bullpucky! Zapco from day one built the best and to this day say continues to build the FINEST 12v prducts available. I for one would have no issue running 100% Zapco gear and winning every competition I entered....that is if they would free up the 1 of 3 Zapco decks that were produced


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> I broke everything down in order. I wasn't asking you not to break it up, I was asking you to include everything. You seem to only quote bits and pieces and attack them. IMO, you should quote everything or nothing at all, but I guess there's nothing I can do to stop you, or change your mind. I just thought I would ask politely.


If something's not relevant, it's much easier on everyone's eyes and more sensitive to our host's bandwidth to simply quote the part that is relevant.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I don't know anyone who uses the spelling Vender, but to each is own.


You should have better reading habits. See e.g. http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/07/31/060731ta_talk_mcgrath



WRX/Z28 said:


> Do you have any precedents that prove me wrong?


Precedent I'm not so sure, and I'm not willing to spend someone else's Westlaw time to find them unless I need them. Nor do I have the UCC or R(2d)K memorized by section. However, I'd know where to find what I need... 



WRX/Z28 said:


> I would use common sense and say that if this were illegal, there would be more consumers trying to sue manufacturers. At the very least, more people would be able to strong arm company's into warranty coverage. Since this is not the case, and does not happen, I feel pretty confident that there is no legal recourse available. Even if there were, it would be cost prohibitive, and therefore your point is moot.


Cost prohibitive, yes, unless you have deep pockets and are pissed off, in which case cost is irrelevant. 

But note that I wrote class action, not individual lawsuit. Whole different world.



WRX/Z28 said:


> So lets say that I go get a business licence, and a Tax ID #. I'm now a merchant. So this makes it ok for me to purchase blow out/clearance items. Resell them, and then the warranty is still enforceable?


Is there a compelling reason otherwise? Are you not merely a merchant pushing new, unaltered product for which "freshness" is not an issue (as compared to, say, milk) through the stream of commerce? They're brand new products that have not reached an end user, not altered, not refurbs or "open box"/"B-stock." In practice, in the real world what happens is that such stuff is usually called one of those three things and sold under different terms as it's technically a different type of product.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I follow that I am not a merchant, but I don't see how it changes if I am. Hell, what happens if a merchant is selling used gear, maybe even claiming it's new? What about refurbs that are not disclosed as refurbs? I actually sold JL refurbs in the past, but they were disclosed as refurbs.


The law is simply different for merchants and consumers. You can accept it or not, but that's the way things are. Well, sort of. One can be a merchant in one field and a consumer in another. Say you have a car audio business, but as you're building your shop you realize you should have spec'd a stronger HVAC system but have a load of unused HVAC parts. So you sell the old parts on Craigslist or whatever and upgrade your shop's A/C. Since your usual business does not include HVAC equipment, you would not be subject to the same body of law as you would for a transaction involving car audio equipment.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Probably true that noone would go to those lengths to pirate coke. ID, Dynaudio, Focal, Tein, I've seen copies of all of the above. Should Tein take the person who bought off of ebay's word, and look at their ebay receipt for warranty coverage on a knockoff? Who's to say what's counterfeit, and what's not? What if it's a really good counterfeit, to the point that you can't tell, but it didn't originate from tein? Manufacturers don't have to deal with this if you have a receipt from a dealer. They have accurate records, and will not be selling counterfeits.


I agree that counterfeits are a different issue. However, if the firm cannot ascertain what is a counterfeit and what is not, that's their problem and not the consumer's. Assuming the consumer had a reasonable expectation that the merchandise was genuine.



WRX/Z28 said:


> BTW, what added value does the local supermarket add to your bottle of coke?


Assuming it's not chilled, very little. Which is why if I drank that foul stuff (it's good enough for me to profit from, but not good enough for my body) I would buy it from the cheapest convenient source.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I wasn't trying to compare yesterday vs. today, more saying that gear is cheaper than ever, but people still think it isn't.


Some gear is cheaper than ever, some isn't. Talking about gear getting cheaper in the context of a four-figure car audio amplifier (which is a thoroughly idiotic price for anyone to pay for a car audio amplifier that's not the size of a pinhead with prodigious output) is rather silly. Also, due to the state of the world economy and the idiocy with which America has been governed since 1/2001, prices are starting to tick up in everything, including electronics. The golden age is over.



WRX/Z28 said:


> For my commodity pieces, I beleive better quality components are worth paying for, as is better heat dissipation, better overall engineering. Longevity is key. One of the things that make PPI's Art series so popular is that 12+ years later, there are ton's of them still kicking. I'd pay extra for my commodity part to do that.


I don't disagree. My A404.2 is still ticking, too. 

However, do you have any grounds to think that a modern amp such as an Alpine PDX or the Kenwood equivalent/better won't be around in 12+ years?



WRX/Z28 said:


> However, try to find a brand new Ipod for more than 5-10% off apples price. It's nearly impossible. Refurbs or older models are your only choice if you want to pay less.


That is certainly true, but I don't see how it's relevant to anything else discussed?



WRX/Z28 said:


> I still disagree with your statements about dealers being uneducated on their products. Many of us sit through multiple vendor trainings, and speak with the engineers directly.


Well, all of the ones with whom I've dealt have been total ****ing mouth breathers. That's all I'll say about that subject in this thread.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Get it through your head that you ARE NOT THE AVERAGE CONSUMER. Neither am I for that matter.


I have, of course, never claimed to be average in this or anything else. That would be silly. My personal degree of involvement and proficiency in a given area has nothing to do with the topic at hand.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Zapco uses some pretty nice processing in their amps. Something that few other manufacturers do.


Those that do, do it for considerably lower cost. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> In short, forum members are not the average consumers, and most manufacturers do not cater to us.


Nobody ever claimed otherwise, and to bring it up is a total strawman. Completely irrelevant to the point at hand.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Unfortunately, until there is some tried and true way to bring every consumer to the bare minimum level of the average forum member, most manufacturers will not change this.


So, tell me. Who else in _any_ field of audio (pro, home, car) handles the distribution software necessary for the use of their gear as stupidly as Zapco does? We're talking about an extreme anomaly here, not standard industry practice.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Some gear is cheaper than ever, some isn't. Talking about gear getting cheaper in the context of a four-figure car audio amplifier (which is a thoroughly idiotic price for anyone to pay for a car audio amplifier that's not the size of a pinhead with prodigious output) is rather silly. Also, due to the state of the world economy and the idiocy with which America has been governed since 1/2001, prices are starting to tick up in everything, including electronics. The golden age is over.
> 
> I don't disagree. My A404.2 is still ticking, too.
> 
> ...


You can thank China's new labor laws for many price increases across the board. 

I have great reason to beleive the kenwoods will not be around. They are having reliability problems right out of the gate. Alpine wise, I wasn't aware their amps had that level of processing. Their amps seem to creep up to the 4 digit price range as well. Something tells me that being that small, they weren't engineered for longevity, but I have nothing else to base this on. They very well may last a century, but i'd be surprised to see them around in 10 years. This is speculation though, how could I know?

Alpine handled their F1 stuff similarly. Alarm company's such as Viper, and Clifford (when they weren't owned by DEI) wouldn't sell over the counter, and wouldn't provide most end users with install guides or Tech info. If you were the average consumer, or even a forum geek, you still couldn't buy one of their alarms and install it. Unless you got lucky and knew someone willing to break their rules. 

Countless vendors have "Dealer Only" tech lines. You need to have your account to access them. I'm sure this is to minimize call volume, but it's also to support their dealers. 

My whole point was that Zapco does this to help their dealers, and to keep their name held in high regard in general. Maybe also to add some elusiveness, and exclusivity as well. Some people seek out items you can't find in any corner store. I had people in the past that wouldn't buy a JL Audio product solely on the grounds that "Everyone has it". 

Lets face it. Practically all of us started out buying in B&M stores, whether we want to admit it or not. Without them, our interest might not have grown to the point that we outgrew them. If there were no B&M stores left, will the next generation be exposed to our hobby at anything close to our level? or will everyone put together a sound system at Wal-Mart? 

I'm sure this is a good portion of the reason Zapco wants their B&M dealers to stick around.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> I have great reason to beleive the kenwoods will not be around. They are having reliability problems right out of the gate.


I've not heard that, but perhaps. I don't know. Anyone here who has one want to comment?



WRX/Z28 said:


> Alpine wise, I wasn't aware their amps had that level of processing.


They don't, though an Alpine system that includes similar power and far more impressive, useful, and sonically impressive processing (Audyssey MultEQ XT) is cheaper and I bet has a smaller footprint. Not to mention that one can run the Audyssey correction oneself. (I wouldn't expect most dealers to know how to optimize an Audyssey run.)



WRX/Z28 said:


> Something tells me that being that small, they weren't engineered for longevity, but I have nothing else to base this on. They very well may last a century, but i'd be surprised to see them around in 10 years. This is speculation though, how could I know?


Indeed. We're talking paradigm-shifting stuff here. Then again, so long as they keep getting smaller and cheaper, who cares? I'm glad the Dell laptop I bought in the summer of 1997 is dead, because the MacBook I'm typing on right now is so much better in every possible way...



WRX/Z28 said:


> Alpine handled their F1 stuff similarly. Alarm company's such as Viper, and Clifford (when they weren't owned by DEI) wouldn't sell over the counter, and wouldn't provide most end users with install guides or Tech info. If you were the average consumer, or even a forum geek, you still couldn't buy one of their alarms and install it. Unless you got lucky and knew someone willing to break their rules.


That's quite different from selling someone something and then saying, "oh, by the way, you're not good enough to use the capability you just paid for."



WRX/Z28 said:


> Countless vendors have "Dealer Only" tech lines. You need to have your account to access them. I'm sure this is to minimize call volume, but it's also to support their dealers.


Again, hardly the same thing as saying, "oh, by the way, you're not good enough to use the capability you just paid for."



WRX/Z28 said:


> My whole point was that Zapco does this to help their dealers, and to keep their name held in high regard in general.


Well, they're quite rightly being dragged through the mud for this idiocy, so obviously they're failing the second count. And if you think their responsibility is to their dealers rather than to their customers, well, I suppose there's nothing wrong with that. It's a bit un-American a viewpoint, but it's a legitimate one.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Maybe also to add some elusiveness, and exclusivity as well. Some people seek out items you can't find in any corner store. I had people in the past that wouldn't buy a JL Audio product solely on the grounds that "Everyone has it".


It's an amp. They're commodities. Nothing exclusive about them.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Lets face it. Practically all of us started out buying in B&M stores, whether we want to admit it or not.


And it was bad experiences with ignorant hacks at said stores (some of whom ended up writing for car-fi magazines...) that led us to a general abhorrence of them that comes out in threads such as this one...



WRX/Z28 said:


> If there were no B&M stores left, will the next generation be exposed to our hobby at anything close to our level? or will everyone put together a sound system at Wal-Mart?


Frankly, I don't care. With OEM systems getting so much better (due largely to adopting technology that "high end" car-fi firms can't seem to handle) I expect that car-fi will continue to shrink in importance and turnover.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

LOL, you sound like a 11 year old thug wanna be that is learning how to cuss

Christian



phoenix said:


> no.... FVCK YOU TILL THE END OF TIME
> 
> 
> SHUT YOUR CUM DUMPSTER AND GET OFF ZAPCO'S NUTTZ!!!


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> ip check can tell who/when he joined.


He will be back.....He has come to our forum in the past spewing the same ****. If you look at some of his other post that are not as offensive he is talking about the same stuff. He changes his IP all the time too.


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## felix509 (Dec 17, 2006)

Some people are just Smart like a Brick, pair that with not getting their way ALL the time, and you get forum FUN!!!!!(or NO fun, actually)





Keep it civil people! 


Hey Robert, my silver amps are installed, getting my car back soon from Earl!!! I don't think we are using the Zapco 10s, but i that is the last step and is undecided as of today...


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## Robert_R (Jun 18, 2007)

felix509 said:


> Some people are just Smart like a Brick, pair that with not getting their way ALL the time, and you get forum FUN!!!!!(or NO fun, actually)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Make sure you send pics when its all done. Earl will text me with them but I cont put those up on the site. Does me no good lol. E-mail me some and I will get them up on the site.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Genxx said:


> ^^^^Agree 100% on your points Sir.
> 
> For people that like to twist anologies in this thread----
> 
> ...


 UGH.

This is the worst analogy in the thread YET, and that is saying a whole hell of a lot.

Every car comes from the factory the same (within tolerances). Every engine is the same size, has the same compression, the same size fuel injectors, etc. etc. etc. etc. ETC. It is a very complex system, designed to work in concert, and the factory optimizes the fuel/tuning map for this exact set of components. If there is extra performance to be gained by re-tuning, it is minor at best, or it involves other compromises and sacrifices.

So, tell me, does Zapco already have a software map for every car audio system that has ever existed and ever will exist? If so, I don't need to waste my time "tuning" my car audio system. Just like I don't need to waste my time tuning my stock Honda.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Actually a lot can be gained from getting A PROGRAMMABLE ECU, yes that's right, I have to Go K-Pro or Hondata, It just ain't gonna get the mileage  And lest we forget bolt-ons  The Domestic crowd is aware of these things too 

Oh, and Honda does not warranty it after that :blush:


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

capnxtreme said:


> UGH.
> 
> This is the worst analogy in the thread YET, and that is saying a whole hell of a lot.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100%.

Thats the entire point. Its stupid, that was the point, that comparing coke and other stupid crap is a stupid as what I posted. Comparing crap is still crap.

*I am glad you could grasp the concept*. I cannot believe it took this long for someone to call ********. I was calling ******** as I typed it. Just like this thread stupid.IMO IT just keeps going and going even after Zapco has stated and others have chimed in they were able to get the software and passwords with a simple phone call.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Genxx said:


> ...others have chimed in they were able to get the software and passwords with a simple phone call.


actually, it just took me an email.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

No ****. I made a phone call and that was it,to easy.IMO

If you are to lazy to send an email or make a phone call, considering how many hours we all spend installing, reading and trying things. A phone call or email is simple in comparison.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

IF, and that's a BIG IF, they are like pro companies, if you give them an e-mail addy you will get firmware updates as quick as the dealers.

I'd still like to see the CD included, but if you can pass the 10 easy question test, it's on.

Give them the test Rob


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Genxx said:


> I agree with you 100%.
> 
> Thats the entire point. Its stupid, that was the point, that comparing coke and other stupid crap is a stupid as what I posted. Comparing crap is still crap.
> 
> *I am glad you could grasp the concept*. I cannot believe it took this long for someone to call ********. I was calling ******** as I typed it. Just like this thread stupid.IMO IT just keeps going and going even after Zapco has stated and others have chimed in they were able to get the software and passwords with a simple phone call.


Well I'm glad you could make the thread even stupider than it was. I'm glad you enjoy calling ******** on yourself. And you're welcome for calling it on you since that's what you wanted.

I will also pat myself on the back for my quality poo-flinging, in the face of poo-flinging.

And Chad, WTF fuel economy is not a compromise?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

capnxtreme said:


> And Chad, WTF fuel economy is not a compromise?


Did you not get the memo? Hell no, we have all the oil we could ever need and our air is clean as evar


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

capnxtreme said:


> Well I'm glad you could make the thread even stupider than it was. I'm glad you enjoy calling ******** on yourself. And you're welcome for calling it on you since that's what you wanted.
> 
> I will also pat myself on the back for my quality poo-flinging, in the face of poo-flinging.
> 
> And Chad, WTF fuel economy is not a compromise?


Thanks. Nothing but the stupidest **** has come out of this thread.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Dillyyo said:


> As far as my stance with the policy, as a multiple business owner, I understand the premise of the practice, but just disagree. As a dealer, I wouldn't go telling some 20 yr old he can't buy the farrari because he probably isn't skilled enough to handle it at limits. Thats not my place and kind of sounds like how a goverment would intercede in peoples lives....for their own safety. If someone F's up their 1000 dollar amp or whatever else, then it's on them. Just like if I open a Zapco amp and screw around inside and mess it up....my fault.


No customer EVER looks at it like that. They expect that it'll be under warranty for the full year (or 90 days or whatever) no matter what *they* do. It's like when people ask us to tune stuff so they can't blow it. You can't do it. If you invent a way to idiot proof something, they'll invent a better idiot. We did a system for a guy and he kept letting his "boy" change the settings. He blew up 2 subs, finally we told him "This is the last time we're swapping it out, because it's your fault it keeps blowing." And he got mad at us. 



Dillyyo said:


> The effects of the policy might solve the issue with some bone heads from screwing up their systems, but it undermines the people who use to use and do use the Zapco line of products. Back in the day this was primarily die hard car audio heads and competitors, but I guess it's geared more towards the general car audio crowd now.
> 
> Even though I understand this is a business, the system should just be a little more streamlined for the experienced user. As some have stated before, finding a dealer/shop where the people are technically savy has been difficult for years. Thats why I think their are many participants in the DIY field of car audio.


It's much the same reason car audio manufacturers don't make really high end products (for the most part) anymore. There's very little demand for something like the Pioneer DEX-P99RS. Most of customers want a $200 flip out monitor that does EVERYTHING, and if it's more than that it's too much. I can't even imagine what they would do if I showed them a $1400 radio w/ no screen 

Most shops don't bother wasting their time with RTA's and such, because there are so few people who have a use AND are willing to pay for it.

I'm on this site because I *do* enjoy car audio. But I work for a dealer, and there's very little support for us from manufacturers because they whore there stuff out all over and on the internet. There's not profit left in car audio, except labor, and people won't pay a reasonable fee to have us work on their cars. They'll pay a dealer mechanic who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground $80+ an hour, but cries when someone who *actually knows what they are doing* want's $60/hr to do custom work on their car.

Frankly, most people I meet are morons. It's not just car audio. It's america in general. This place is filled with idiots. :mean:

Jay


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

jay u realize this thread is 2 years old?


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

Since this thread is back up ...............

Eclipse and Xtant both were dealer only support as far back as the mid 90's this is nothing new.

Eclipse because of the ESN, and Xtant... well I never figured out why though it had something to do with the modules and taking the amp cover off to reveal the guts for installation and tweaking.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

JayinMI said:


> No customer EVER looks at it like that. They expect that it'll be under warranty for the full year (or 90 days or whatever) no matter what *they* do. It's like when people ask us to tune stuff so they can't blow it. You can't do it. If you invent a way to idiot proof something, they'll invent a better idiot. We did a system for a guy and he kept letting his "boy" change the settings. He blew up 2 subs, finally we told him "This is the last time we're swapping it out, because it's your fault it keeps blowing." And he got mad at us.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Horsemanwill said:


> jay u realize this thread is 2 years old?


:laugh:


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Um, I didn't until just now.:blush:

I was browsing the main menu area and this was the thread it showed most recently active. I read through the first few threads and felt the need to rant, I, er, mean, post. When I came back on a few mins ago, I saw someone had replied, but was surprised to see the thread had 14 pages...ooops.

<shakes head>

Jay


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## betterbelizeit (Oct 4, 2009)

If Mr. Robert Zeff, the original founder of ZAPCO was reading this and IF he was still at Zapco, he'd have some heads on a platter. And that "dealer" line you're trying to dump on us, that is a pile of horse crap. The dealers will survive, better than survive, prosper if they were allowed to develop a relationship with their customers. Stores are there not only to stick the ZAPCO brand down our throats but to use their relationship with the consumer to build a certain level of trust so we would go to THAT same store again and again. And each store has a territory that's naturally their simply by their location and the population of that area...So, all your dealers can do well. Don't blame the net, blame your down right aggressive, selfish marketing and product design. Who are you kidding...that DCS is a perfect example of designing a product to force the guys buying it to get sucked into everything ZAPCO. Build a quality product and your brand will survive (And if you've forgotten what a quality product is, give Mr. Zeff a call....but he ain't cheap). And you're calling your customer a "Moron" ....if you believe the crap you're dishing out about protecting the dealers and protecting the consumers from "themselves", you're the real moron. What a just cause you have..."protecting the consumer from themselves". That should be ZAPCO's new motto for 2010.


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