# WARNING - RANT POST



## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Hello fellow enthusiasts! This may change but it's only a reflection of my experience during the last couple of months. I have typically done my own installations but it's been a long time since I did my last one and I haven't dealt with shops at all since moving to Nashville, TN. 

As a business owner, there is no other way to say this; the small car audio shops within 100 miles of the city have been flaky and totally lacking in professionalism. I can see why so many choose to go to the big chains; something that I am seriously trying to avoid. 

The national chains that I have spoken with have been very responsive and helpful. Now, I fully realize that they don't possess the level of skill I'm seeking. But at least it's clear that they want your business (without being pushy at all) and they are willing to spend time with you even if only on the phone and without knowing if they will ever get your business. 

In stark contrast, the small businesses seem completely uninterested in earning your business. Even if they meet with you in person, the follow up is nonexistent. I don't want to call anyone out and I may well come back here and sing the praises of the shop I end up using. 

But for now, the independent brick and mortar stores (who we have seen go out of business en masse), seem a lot less like victims of the internet than the agents of their own demise.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Now I assume you sat down and spoke with that guy who is incredibly well respected in the industry who was mentioned like 27 times in your last thread? Based on your intent to understand every. last. little. tiny. detail. about a DSP which you are not going to install and not going to tune I'm not sure if the small businesses are uninterested in making money or if they are just running away from you. 🙃


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I actually have not been able to make contact with him personally. I have contacted them through FB IM because their contact form throws up an error (on their website). I then spoke with another person at his shop several times and he told me that the owner had in fact seen the images I sent them through email. Mike then gave me the phone number of the owner saying that he had specifically instructed him to do so in order for us to finally connect, at least through texts. 

But I'm not sure why you're making the statement about the DSP. In fact, I would like to buy and have them install one. My reasons for discussing it on this forum is precisely to avoid wasting his time by doing the legwork myself. I have not asked them ANY questions about products, pricing, or anything else. I so much want to be able to post a great review of the shop on here! But still, I am frustrated by the lack of responsiveness not just by them but by a couple of other shops that I have dealt with. 

I don't think I'm being difficult at all and in fact, I am very willing to spend money on this build. If trying to learn the most I can about something I knew very little about is wrong, then I guess I have a different view than you do. All I have asked of the shops is to have a conversation and get their recommendations so I can think about the installation with fresh eyes and to make decisions based on their advice.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Btw, if it was convenient for me to just pop by the shop, I would have done that already but it's an all day affair for me to drive down there and back.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

opekone said:


> Now I assume you sat down and spoke with that guy who is incredibly well respected in the industry who was mentioned like 27 times in your last thread? Based on your intent to understand every. last. little. tiny. detail. about a DSP which you are not going to install and not going to tune I'm not sure if the small businesses are uninterested in making money or if they are just running away from you. 🙃


27 times? you counted? hahahaha.....not making fun of you, it just gave me a chuckle...all in good fun my friend!


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Best of luck. Maybe people are just backed up due to the pandemic.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

opekone said:


> Best of luck. Maybe people are just backed up due to the pandemic.


Yes sir, and I totally get that. It's just that if you send them an email or tell someone over the phone that you understand that they may not have time for your build, they should just say that. I'm okay with waiting till next month or something.I'm not a child who needs it TODAY....hahahaha. I just want to discuss the specifics of my system with the person who is ultimately going to do the build and get on the same page.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

You're only telling part of the story it seems. What exactly are you asking for? Can you go into detail about your experiences and what you are saying to them and their response? Playing the devils advocate, I'm willing to bet there's a reason shops aren't eager to follow up. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> You're only telling part of the story it seems. What exactly are you asking for? Can you go into detail about your experiences and what you are saying to them and their response? Playing the devils advocate, I'm willing to bet there's a reason shops aren't eager to follow up.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Sure. The only thing I've asked for is a 15 minute discussion to hear their thoughts on what system they would recommend based on three different system designs I've sent them. I'm also not married to the diagrams I sent. I'm willing to rethink the layout if they have other ideas.

I am completely open to their suggestions and advice. I have not set any price limitations. I know that the shop south of me can't do my install for a couple of weeks, which is fine. I asked them to give me a day and time when we could meet in person; I'm willing to make the trip.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

The Italian said:


> Sure. The only thing I've asked for is a 15 minute discussion to hear their thoughts on what system they would recommend based on three different system designs I've sent them. I'm also not married to the diagrams I sent. I'm willing to rethink the layout if they have other ideas.
> 
> I am completely open to their suggestions and advice. I have not set any the price limitations. I know that the shop south of me can't do my install for a couple of weeks, which is fine. I asked them to give me a day and time when we could meet in person; I'm willing to make the trip.


Hmmm, maybe they aren't fond of entertaining the idea of installing someone's equipment that they don't use or they're not familiar with. Thats still not detailed enough to say, but I promise that if you came off in a way that was "I'm a hobbyist that knows what he's talking about and want to use this equipment that a bunch of guys online told me to get", no one is going to be enthusiastic to follow up (not saying that's what you did, but just bringing up the point). That said, if all else down there fails, let me know when you want to come up to NY 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

I get what you're saying brother, but it's not like that at all. Give me a few and I'll show you what I sent them.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Here, check it out. This is one of the layouts that I sent them.









Do you think that comes across like an arrogant guy who is a know it all? My intention is to actually make things easier for them. It's the reason why I asked so many questions in this forum l. I've never been a guy who's full of himself even when I know a topic very well. I am humble and always interested in learning from others. The situation is just generally frustrating, you know?


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Hell, I'm just going to share this anyway. This is exactly what I sent them along with the diagrams.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

I don't know who you have checked with, and I'm not going to read all of your threads to find out, so forgive me if this has already been suggested.
Audio X, Florence, AL
Owner - Steve Cook
+1 256-764-4111


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Thanks, I have his info.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

@SkizeR, you're not usually this quiet...especially on a topic that you probably deal with regularly. I'm wondering if you would take anything I've sent to the shop in my part of the country as negative? I actually make and customize products for customers and I find it incredibly helpful when a customer has a good idea of what they want; but maybe this industry is different and you would certainly know that. Thanks!


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

The Italian said:


> Here, check it out. This is one of the layouts that I sent them.
> View attachment 271581
> 
> 
> Do you think that comes across like an arrogant guy who is a know it all? My intention is to actually make things easier for them. It's the reason why I asked so many questions in this forum l. I've never been a guy who's full of himself even when I know a topic very well. I am humble and always interested in learning from others. The situation is just generally frustrating, you know?


I mean your whole diagram can be replaced with "i was thinking replace the stock speakers, amps under the seats, and put a sub where the spare tire is."

Honestly I'm not sure what your written paragraph even means.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

This is one of three configurations that I'm considering. I think it's easier for an installer who is pressed for time to look at a quick diagram but you can certainly take a different approach on your own. If you don't understand what I wrote, then I can't help you. I think it's pretty clear. There is nothing complicated here. I'm providing them with information about my particular car, the current system, and the target for an end result.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

What does this mean? "I have ALL measurements taken directly from my car and not online specs"


How could you overwhelm them? "I'm trying to give you solid info but I don't want to overwhelm you with data"


"There are speakers in my D pillars but I didn't include them in my diagrams" Does this mean you want them left stock? Or replaced? Or hooked up? Is this the only thing that you didn't include in your diagram?



This all reads like:
"I'm a hobbyist that knows what he's talking about and want to use this equipment that a bunch of guys online told me to get" 

But I'm that guy too, so don't take it personally. Pot, kettle, black over here.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

The measurements are actually pretty important. Several things are either not available online, or inconsistent. For example; how much room do you have under a seat without moving the air vents? Good thing to know if you want to use cool air to run across the heatsink
If they are too busy too take 15 minutes to talk to a customer, they will probably not be doing your installation. The information I provided them is enough for them to judge whether they want the job or not. Why send them additional details at this early stage? 
I already talked to one of his employees about excluding the D pillar speakers as well as the center channel. Hell, I barely want to use the rear door speakers
If a shop only wants to deal with customers who come in and say "I know nothing and I have an unlimited budget. Do with me what you will", then it's probably not someone I would do business with. I don't understand why knowledge would be intimidating to a true professional. I'm not claiming to know more than they do and I've been pretty clear about my willingness to change any decisions based on their input. 
I don't see any reason to be scared of these guys. I think that some people are less intimidated about challenging their cardiovascular surgeon than to say what's on their minds at these shops. Makes zero sense imo.


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## jfrank81 (May 4, 2020)

I’ve debated sharing my two cents, but figured I throw it out. I’m a detailed guy and so I can relate to your thought process and it’s why I’m a DIY guy myself. I used to be in the business years ago and that is what I’m basing this on.

I don’t know anything about you other than what you’ve shared here, but you give off a high risk, low reward customer vibe in my opinion. I’ll elaborate.

Bringing your own equipment has three big down falls. The obvious is that the shop is not making that margin if it takes your job over another. As mentioned, experience matters and unfamiliar stuff translate to more time to install and setup that may not be time they can bill you for. Related, install mistakes fatal to or defective equipment are less easily dealt with because they can’t just swap something out of inventory to keep going and they are working with your cost not their (lower) cost - not to mention the blame game that transpires.

The excessive detail in communication gives off a high maintenance customer vibe. Most shops take pride in their way of doing things and they aren’t interested in being told how to do the work. These are the same customers that keep coming back for warranty work because some little thing is less than perfect. Nothing wrong with being a high expectation customer, but experienced shops know the drill and will take easier money if they can. I would.

I’m certain their are shops out there that cater to that sort of clientele as the type of installs can certainly correlate with types customers, but you probably need to look pretty hard.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

You're right, im usually not this quiet. Im trying to ween myself off of this forum. But as far as your question.. Its hard to say. I can play devils advocate for both sides, but cant give an honest assessment without knowing every little detail, which is obviously impossible. I have a few customers/potential customers that could say very similar things you have.. "yeah i just sent him a list and what i want and idk man he doesnt seem interested".. from my end, those same people were nightmares to deal with. devil is in the details. I just "fired" a recent potential customer who wanted to ship his car across the country because i could already tell he was overbearing and would be impossible to please. I have no idea if this is the case for you based on what you have said, but idk, devils advocate. All of the shops that were recommended to you are all very good. If ALL of them don't seem interested in getting back to you, im inclined to believe there's more to the story that you might not even realize.

Remember, the shops that i recommended and you said you contacted are all TOP of the line shops. Shops like this don't need anyone's work. If someone seems like they're a bit much, could cause headaches, doesnt want to use product they sell and can actually support, they might be best off letting someone else take care of them. Im not the most familiar with the practices of the shop i recommended that's very close to you, but the one south of you has worked with all sorts of customers, ones that i, from 1000 miles away can tell they're a pain in the ass, so im not sure what the deal is there. Something must be up. Either way too busy, or again, we don't have all of the info. Again, i deal with customers who are hobbyists like yourself all the time and im used to these types. Hell, i have a customer coming in for a quick adjustment in his car who has been through SIX shops already in the northeast area. Everyone says he's a huge pain in the ass and to not work with him for one reason or the other (everyone knows everyone, its a small industry).. but I don't really find him that hard to work with. Hes just eccentric, excited, etc.. Shops that don't typically work with hobbyists will find them to be their worst nightmare, usually because they're just not sure how to satisfy them, which is sometimes due to lack of knowledge in their own field.. That is not the case for the shops i recommended to you though.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

jfrank81 said:


> I’ve debated sharing my two cents, but figured I throw it out. I’m a detailed guy and so I can relate to your thought process and it’s why I’m a DIY guy myself. I used to be in the business years ago and that is what I’m basing this on.
> 
> I don’t know anything about you other than what you’ve shared here, but you give off a high risk, low reward customer vibe in my opinion. I’ll elaborate.
> 
> ...


this. absolutely all of this. 

Honestly guys, hobbyists tend to be a headache to deal with. We get it.. you are in love with car audio and want to dictate the entire install and be super detailed since its your thing and you're paying a lot of money for it. But why would any shop want to deal with that, a high maintenance customer who brings in their own gear over someone whos willing to talk for a half hour or so about options for their car, and drop 20k on labor and equipment. Zero incentive to do that when people are literally lining up to do said half hour talk, 20k for a 5 day job. Thats what a lot of these really good shops are getting, and what im trying to shift my focus towards for obvious reasons. In case they weren't obvious, its not just a money thing. Its mostly a maintenance/headache thing. My customers who arent full fledged hobbyists are always the easiest ones to deal with, always end up with a great end result, and are always understanding on various points. I don't know what it is, but hobbyists (at least in this industry), can be extremely hard to work with in most cases. Obviously this isn't always the case. But its more common than not.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

i can tell you when i have a client call with there own equipment (unless its new and i am familiar with it) and there own ideas i always refer them elsewhere. to much headache dealing with others gear and ideas and not enough reward for the it IMO, i am in home integration and fabrication, i would run like hell if i was in car audio.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

That said, if you really want me to asses what is up, entertain the idea of bringing the car to NY and shoot me a message


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## jfrank81 (May 4, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> this. absolutely all of this.
> 
> Honestly guys, hobbyists tend to be a headache to deal with. We get it.. you are in love with car audio and want to dictate the entire install and be super detailed since its your thing and you're paying a lot of money for it. But why would any shop want to deal with that, a high maintenance customer who brings in their own gear over someone whos willing to talk for a half hour or so about options for their car, and drop 20k on labor and equipment. Zero incentive to do that when people are literally lining up to do said half hour talk, 20k for a 5 day job. Thats what a lot of these really good shops are getting, and what im trying to shift my focus towards for obvious reasons. In case they weren't obvious, its not just a money thing. Its mostly a maintenance/headache thing. My customers who arent full fledged hobbyists are always the easiest ones to deal with, always end up with a great end result, and are always understanding on various points. I don't know what it is, but hobbyists (at least in this industry), can be extremely hard to work with in most cases. Obviously this isn't always the case. But its more common than not.


Personality plays a role too. The assertive, detail obsessed person will let that shine everywhere. I’m less assertive, but highly detailed. You should see the install I did for my home humidifier wiring. I had to redo the hack job on my thermostat from the home builder HVAC contractor in the process. For those things that I can’t or won’t do myself, I simply have to lower my expectations before I even have the first conversation. It’s just not worth the stress.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Gents, I understand what you're saying. I will address one thing that has been mentioned in every one of today's posts. I *do not* have a bunch of equipment ready to go. I am *more than willing* to spend my money buying gear from them.

I have not pursued a relationship with all of the shops in my area. For a quick example, I'll talk about one. I went in and talked to the person working the counter. I asked about what they recommended after summing up that I wanted to keep the head unit and upgrade the rest. Amps, drivers, dsp, sound deadening, and possibly a custom, stealth sub enclosure. They asked what products I wanted to use. I asked them what brands they sell. They told me and I mentioned the products I liked from what they had to offer. They quickly gave me a price for the hardware and that was it.

As far as being a pain in the ass customer, it's simply not me. Yes, I am frustrated with this forum a little bit because there are more posts dogging what someone asks about than ones genuinely trying to understand and offering helpful advice. This is not directed at anybody in particular and it's not even directly about my own posts. I've seen the way many others are treated and I see no reason for it.

Finally, how often is a customer going to take a whole day to drive back to a store to get an adjustment on their system? Perhaps people with nothing better to do I suppose, but the odds are pretty low.


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