# Audax PR170MO vs. JBL 2118 as a pure midrange



## funkalicious

I need my midranges to be able to keep up with a pair of JBL 2206s in ported boxes. The Audax's/2118s will get 150w each at 8ohms and be mounted in the footwells. The 2206s will get 300w each at 4ohms and be mounted in the side panels immediately behind the second row seating (2005 Honda Pilot). Looking at the frequency response charts the JBL 2118 will trounce the Audax at 250Hz when playing with authority. The question is how much of a difference can I expect to hear with regard to the stage being pulled to the rear between a 350-400Hz high pass on the Audax vs. a 250Hz high pass with the JBLs? Really hope I'm making sense.


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## oabeieo

funkalicious said:


> I need my midranges to be able to keep up with a pair of JBL 2206s in ported boxes. The Audax's/2118s will get 150w each at 8ohms and be mounted in the footwells. The 2206s will get 300w each at 4ohms and be mounted in the side panels immediately behind the second row seating (2005 Honda Pilot). Looking at the frequency response charts the JBL 2118 will trounce the Audax at 250Hz when playing with authority. The question is how much of a difference can I expect to hear with regard to the stage being pulled to the rear between a 350-400Hz high pass on the Audax vs. a 250Hz high pass with the JBLs? Really hope I'm making sense.


I'm selling my pr170mo set. There barely 2mo old. 
They sound amazing.


The audax sounds its best crossed at 500 12db no exceptions, it just does and with that crossover it starts to roll off at 400. It's very smooth and sounds very very much like a horn as far as dynamic range.


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## oabeieo

funkalicious said:


> I need my midranges to be able to keep up with a pair of JBL 2206s in ported boxes. The Audax's/2118s will get 150w each at 8ohms and be mounted in the footwells. The 2206s will get 300w each at 4ohms and be mounted in the side panels immediately behind the second row seating (2005 Honda Pilot). Looking at the frequency response charts the JBL 2118 will trounce the Audax at 250Hz when playing with authority. The question is how much of a difference can I expect to hear with regard to the stage being pulled to the rear between a 350-400Hz high pass on the Audax vs. a 250Hz high pass with the JBLs? Really hope I'm making sense.


You can't cross the audax at 350. Well you can but it sounds hollow and needs tons and tons of eq cuts at 315 - 400 and makes it not worth it . The audax will keep up with just about anything with 10w on them , however if you don't want the stage pulled back with the jbl I. Rear doors I would cross the jbl's at no higher than 250. At 315 you can really start to tell a speaker is behind you. It gets kinda depressing also, at 250 it's fine. So , with that said, even tho I want to sell you my audax , I don't think it's a good choice , you really will want something that can play down to 250 at full power to make it blend right. 

I have almost the same exact setup you describe with a 10" midbass behind me, and that's why I'm selling the audax, I'm going for a 8" in the kicks or doors and play them to 250 and have the 10" behind me play 50-250. And the mini horns under dash crossed at 1.6k with a 2408H.


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## funkalicious

Thanks for the offer man, but I already have the Audax's . This is my first go at a three way and am not sure what the lowest high pass frequency on the midrange can be before the stage starts to pull back. Or if that's even an absolute. I was going with the assumption that the lower the better but wanted others' input. The impedance curve of the Audax made it look dicey at 350Hz but I thought I recalled in a long ago post somewhere that thehatedguy (I could be completely wrong about him being the one who commented) said he had played his at 350Hz but that was the absolute limit for a high pass. Thanks for the input and sharing your experience.


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## oabeieo

funkalicious said:


> Thanks for the offer man, but I already have the Audax's . This is my first go at a three way and am not sure what the lowest high pass frequency on the midrange can be before the stage starts to pull back. Or if that's even an absolute. I was going with the assumption that the lower the better but wanted others' input. The impedance curve of the Audax made it look dicey at 350Hz but I thought I recalled in a long ago post somewhere that thehatedguy (I could be completely wrong about him being the one who commented) said he had played his at 350Hz but that was the absolute limit for a high pass. Thanks for the input and sharing your experience.


Oh wird ! 

Well best of luCk  

It's going to sound awesome no matter what being that I have almost the exact same thing you're going to love it really seriously they really are amazing drivers and the stuff you have picked out is going to be fantastic !

The only problem I have crossing the mid range that low sure it's getting close to resonance, but I would be more concerned with its half millimeter excursion limit as I stated earlier, I tryed going to 315 and 400 tho it played it just fine, it had what I could describe as a Hollow sound, and snare impact was nil. I think it was due to its low excursion And inability to get into the sub harmonic spectrum of 300hz where snare impact is most critical. 

I guess what I'm getting at is, trying to encourage you to try different slopes when you go to tune and dial in. I'm sure you'll figure it out anyway please post pics we would love to see what you've done sounds very fun !


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## mitchyz250f

I have 2204 (precursor to the 2206) with180 watts/ch in 1ft3 enclosures in the rear quarters of my RSX and PR170M0 with 50 watts in the front doors in sealed 2 liter enclosures. I ran mine 400Hz and later 350Hz with a 24db crossover with my MS8. I don’t know how much equalizing the MS8 did because it was automatic. The combined sound was incredible. The snare impact was the most savage and believable I have ever heard in any car or home system. Listening to opening of MJs 'Billy Jean' is absolutely savage/painful if the volume was turned up. I think I may have lost some dynamics at 350 but it was subtle to me. 



They are incredible speakers. But as was mentioned the stage was pulled to the rear. Sometimes it sounds like some instruments are being played behind you. Other times it sounded like the musician is walking from the front to the back of the stage. With the car moving this was much less noticeable. Is it worth the loss of stage to get the dynamics of these fine speaker...HELL YEAH.

I later replaced the Audax's PHL1120s which are almost sonically identical to the Audax's but with 4x the excursion. Swapped without any equalizing I couldn't hear any difference. I later changed the crossover to 300Hz which definitely improved the staging without any loss of dynamics.

Thehatedguy wrote that he ran the Audax's down to 175Hz with either a 24 or 48db crossover. I sure like me he can't remember the exact details of every setup over 1o years ago. He wrote that "it can't physically play to 100 hertz, but it is a beast from 300 and up."Audax recommends a 500Hz crossover but then again for pro audio applications. 

I installed a set of 2118s crossed at 100hz in a friends Camaro. Sounded great but not nearly as dynamic , open or sweet as the PR170s. I also have quite of bit experience with the 2118 v the Audax in my home system as direct comparison. The Audax's are a much better pure midrange than the 2118. I don't think there is a comparison in openness and dynamics. But in this comparison the crossover was at 500Hz so is not a real comparison for your purpose.

In the JBL Cabaret 4628B’ the 2118 is crossed at 500Hz/6db. But many many people have used it in car audio crossed from 80 to 160Hz with great success. It is commonly believed at the ‘Lansing Heritage’ forum (audioheritage.org) that the 2118 are best crossed higher than 300Hz. The 2118 starts dropping off around 350Hz. In fact your 2206 start dropping off around 100Hz. Pro audio drivers will need to be equalized to have band width but are really tough to hurt.

If it were me I would plan on crossing at 400Hz and deal with the stage moving around a bit. You will not be disappointed I guarantee. If you want you can try 300Hz but I would NOT go lower than that.


Mikey7182 has a lot of experience with these speakers read his threads:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...y/102176-2003-s-10-pro-audio-blowthrough.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...y/126807-mikes-new-pro-audio-blowthrough.html

And this one:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ion/118690-calling-all-jbl-2118h-experts.html

The bottom line is you can't go wrong with either driver.


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## funkalicious

mitchyz250f: Thank you! That is exactly the kind of input I was hoping for. So at 2L your enclosures are just big enough to fit the speakers' basket/magnet assembly? Wow. The more I hear about the PR170's the more I'm willing to risk experimenting with them and hold off on the 2118's.


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## mitchyz250f

The 2 liter enclosures are considerably larger than the minimum to fit the speaker. I believe it was what was recommended by Audax. To get the enclosures to 2 liters and fit inside the door required some effort but it was worth it.

If you are trying to get the smallest box possible use unibox to figure out what works. A qtc of .9 to 1.0 is sometimes recommended by people who have experience working with them.


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## oabeieo

mitchyz250f said:


> I have 2204 (precursor to the 2206) with180 watts/ch in 1ft3 enclosures in the rear quarters of my RSX and PR170M0 with 50 watts in the front doors in sealed 2 liter enclosures. I ran mine 400Hz and later 350Hz with a 24db crossover with my MS8. I don’t know how much equalizing the MS8 did because it was automatic. The combined sound was incredible. The snare impact was the most savage and believable I have ever heard in any car or home system. Listening to opening of MJs 'Billy Jean' is absolutely savage/painful if the volume was turned up. I think I may have lost some dynamics at 350 but it was subtle to me.
> 
> 
> 
> They are incredible speakers. But as was mentioned the stage was pulled to the rear. Sometimes it sounds like some instruments are being played behind you. Other times it sounded like the musician is walking from the front to the back of the stage. With the car moving this was much less noticeable. Is it worth the loss of stage to get the dynamics of these fine speaker...HELL YEAH.
> 
> I later replaced the Audax's PHL1120s which are almost sonically identical to the Audax's but with 4x the excursion. Swapped without any equalizing I couldn't hear any difference. I later changed the crossover to 300Hz which definitely improved the staging without any loss of dynamics.
> 
> Thehatedguy wrote that he ran the Audax's down to 175Hz with either a 24 or 48db crossover. I sure like me he can't remember the exact details of every setup over 1o years ago. He wrote that "it can't physically play to 100 hertz, but it is a beast from 300 and up."Audax recommends a 500Hz crossover but then again for pro audio applications.
> 
> I installed a set of 2118s crossed at 100hz in a friends Camaro. Sounded great but not nearly as dynamic , open or sweet as the PR170s. I also have quite of bit experience with the 2118 v the Audax in my home system as direct comparison. The Audax's are a much better pure midrange than the 2118. I don't think there is a comparison in openness and dynamics. But in this comparison the crossover was at 500Hz so is not a real comparison for your purpose.
> 
> In the JBL Cabaret 4628B’ the 2118 is crossed at 500Hz/6db. But many many people have used it in car audio crossed from 80 to 160Hz with great success. It is commonly believed at the ‘Lansing Heritage’ forum (audioheritage.org) that the 2118 are best crossed higher than 300Hz. The 2118 starts dropping off around 350Hz. In fact your 2206 start dropping off around 100Hz. Pro audio drivers will need to be equalized to have band width but are really tough to hurt.
> 
> If it were me I would plan on crossing at 400Hz and deal with the stage moving around a bit. You will not be disappointed I guarantee. If you want you can try 300Hz but I would NOT go lower than that.
> 
> 
> Mikey7182 has a lot of experience with these speakers read his threads:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...y/102176-2003-s-10-pro-audio-blowthrough.html
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...y/126807-mikes-new-pro-audio-blowthrough.html
> 
> And this one:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ion/118690-calling-all-jbl-2118h-experts.html
> 
> The bottom line is you can't go wrong with either driver.


I've been looking at dolphins lately . 

What made you choose the 1120? 
I saw a few that looked very similar. IIRC the 1090 was a paper version . 

I'm curious what you think I am thinking about a set. 

I crossed my pr170mo at 1k 6db as of late with excellent results. 

I now have a 4way front stage and want to get back to a 3way. I just need a driver that sounds as good as the audax that will get me into the mid 200s at full power.


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## mitchyz250f

I loved my Audax’s and I read that the PHL 1120’s were almost identical in sound and the frames were a little smaller which allowed me to put them behind the door panels instead of in front of them. To me the sound is the same in every way.


Some people like Nelson Pass (Pass Labs forum on DIYAudio) use the Audax’s down to 300Hz in pairs; 

“The PL170M0's are really very nice, good down to about 300-500 Hz and up to about 6 Khz. They work well with others, and stack well in MTM arrangements.

They are pretty happy with 6 dB/oct crossovers, and you often will get good performance with just a cap, and no rolloff on the top. This works because they have a pretty smooth rolloff on both ends, and the cone doesn't have obnoxious modes.

They are very efficient and can take a lot of power.

I have used them in 3 and 4 way systems, usually with Raven R2's, PR120's, or PR130's on the top. In 3 way systems, you need a woofer that is efficient and will make it cleanly up to at least 300 Hz. There's not many 15 inch woofers that will go up that high and still sound good, although the older Altec woofers and the Audax PR380's have done a pretty good job at it.

The most "impressive" system I've made with the PR170M0 was a stacked set with a PR130 in the middle, PR170M0's above and below it, and PR380's above and below them in 9 foot transmission lines. The efficiency was about 100 dB, the system was about +/- 3 dB 20-20K, and could take all the power you might throw at it.

Everybody really seemed to like them, or maybe they were afraid that a bad review might cause me to turn it up...”

PHL 1220 driver question - diyAudio

The Eminence Alpha 15A may play up to 300Hz and is a woofer not a sub. 


According to PHL the 1080’s application is ‘field in sound reinforcement ‘ and is not a hifi speaker. You can tell which are the really hifi PHL’s because in the description they say ‘developed as monitors’ or ‘the result of A/B testing’.

PHL only has a two speakers that are made primarily as hifi ‘monitor use’ in the 6.5" size are the 1120 and 1220. The 1220 have an Fs of 50Hz and has and is 3.5mm (8mm to damage) travel vs 2mm travel (3.5mm to damage) for the 1120. The are very good sound speakers but I have not heard them myself although I have one which I may or may not use for my center for my car. The 1120 can only be purchased used and the 1220 can only be purchased used or from Europe. Used two per side you could probably get to 250/300 with 1120 and even more likely with the 1220’s. 

But if you need to get close to 250Hz and don’t have unlimited funds for testing speakers I would get 2 more Audax’s and try a pair of Audax’s per side or an 8” speaker like the JBL 2118 which are being sold for $100 each on ebay.


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## danssoslow

There's a seller on ebay selling pairs of 2118s for $75 shipped.


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## funkalicious

Thanks for the heads up on the 2118s. Just snatched up a pair. At that price my broke ass can afford 'em .


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## danssoslow

funkalicious said:


> Thanks for the heads up on the 2118s. Just snatched up a pair. At that price my broke ass can afford 'em .


I feel you on that. I wish I could fit them into my car.


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## oabeieo

Yeah thanks I just snagged the other set. 50.00+25ahipping 

75.00 they said they are in good working order. I saw some heat/stress marks on one of the cones in pic. I hope they are okay. I can te one them if I have to but that would be expensive


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## oabeieo

mitchyz250f said:


> I loved my Audax’s and I read that the PHL 1120’s were almost identical in sound and the frames were a little smaller which allowed me to put them behind the door panels instead of in front of them. To me the sound is the same in every way.
> 
> 
> Some people like Nelson Pass (Pass Labs forum on DIYAudio) use the Audax’s down to 300Hz in pairs;
> 
> “The PL170M0's are really very nice, good down to about 300-500 Hz and up to about 6 Khz. They work well with others, and stack well in MTM arrangements.
> 
> They are pretty happy with 6 dB/oct crossovers, and you often will get good performance with just a cap, and no rolloff on the top. This works because they have a pretty smooth rolloff on both ends, and the cone doesn't have obnoxious modes.
> 
> They are very efficient and can take a lot of power.
> 
> I have used them in 3 and 4 way systems, usually with Raven R2's, PR120's, or PR130's on the top. In 3 way systems, you need a woofer that is efficient and will make it cleanly up to at least 300 Hz. There's not many 15 inch woofers that will go up that high and still sound good, although the older Altec woofers and the Audax PR380's have done a pretty good job at it.
> 
> The most "impressive" system I've made with the PR170M0 was a stacked set with a PR130 in the middle, PR170M0's above and below it, and PR380's above and below them in 9 foot transmission lines. The efficiency was about 100 dB, the system was about +/- 3 dB 20-20K, and could take all the power you might throw at it.
> 
> Everybody really seemed to like them, or maybe they were afraid that a bad review might cause me to turn it up...”
> 
> PHL 1220 driver question - diyAudio
> 
> The Eminence Alpha 15A may play up to 300Hz and is a woofer not a sub.
> 
> 
> According to PHL the 1080’s application is ‘field in sound reinforcement ‘ and is not a hifi speaker. You can tell which are the really hifi PHL’s because in the description they say ‘developed as monitors’ or ‘the result of A/B testing’.
> 
> PHL only has a two speakers that are made primarily as hifi ‘monitor use’ in the 6.5" size are the 1120 and 1220. The 1220 have an Fs of 50Hz and has and is 3.5mm (8mm to damage) travel vs 2mm travel (3.5mm to damage) for the 1120. The are very good sound speakers but I have not heard them myself although I have one which I may or may not use for my center for my car. The 1120 can only be purchased used and the 1220 can only be purchased used or from Europe. Used two per side you could probably get to 250/300 with 1120 and even more likely with the 1220’s.
> 
> But if you need to get close to 250Hz and don’t have unlimited funds for testing speakers I would get 2 more Audax’s and try a pair of Audax’s per side or an 8” speaker like the JBL 2118 which are being sold for $100 each on ebay.


Well crap, if the 1120 isn't available that sucks. Sounds like that's a winner. I will keep my eye out for a set. I just ordered the 2118H to go with the pr170mo and the Beyma 10G40 . I'm running a 4way front . I think I will be happy with the 2118 along with the 170 for midrange/midbass. I like how the 10g40 plays bass 50-200hz and the 2118 will play 200-500 and the 170 500-1.6

I've had some issues with the 170mo having breakup at 1.6k so ii using a 2480h at 1.6k and up and it's working pretty good. 

As soon as ES 8" is available I'll get a set to replace the 2118s 
Right now I have a morel in the 200-500 range and it's pretty sad in comparison to what the other drivers in systems ability. I have gains all way down on everything except the morel. 

I had the Beyma 10s and the pr170mo set up in a 3way fronts which would have worked great if I didn't have cancelation in the driver side so I opted to use a 2nd midbass and it's works for this car the way it's setup. 

Ultimately I would like the pr170 to be replaced with the Phl and go back to a 3way front. The pr170 is in my a pillar and it's fantastic. I just wished it could get a bit lower for that location and than just run those with the 10s alone. 

Thanks for the info tho. I be keeping my eye out for a set for sure now. 

What do you think of the 6g40nd?


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## danssoslow

I'm always thinking about keeping as much range as possible into one speaker; so in that frame of mind, would it not be more beneficial to find a compression driver that would allow you to take the Audax out of the equation?


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## thehatedguy

Well the problem with that option is the size of the horn to support such a low XO point. That and the drivers get BIG and expensive fast for something that could play low and high at the same time. Even then you will give up treble performance to dome breakup for the low end performance.

Few guys around here like the BMS 8S215 better than the Audax and JBL...which really says a lot considering how good I think those old Audax and JBL sound. It's an 8 though...but would make a killer midrange though it's not the most sensitive mid in the prosound world.

The PHL 1120 is a great driver. That was the driver Acoustic Elegance was aiming at besting when they released their TD6M midrange. So that could be an option if you have deep pockets and some space since the motors are huge. 

I am going to throw out another wild card- the Dayton PM180. Supposed to be excellent as a midrange. Accuton-like levels of distortion in the midrange.


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## oabeieo

danssoslow said:


> I'm always thinking about keeping as much range as possible into one speaker; so in that frame of mind, would it not be more beneficial to find a compression driver that would allow you to take the Audax out of the equation?


Yeah, but I am having a sweet romance with on dash horns. I really need to stay above 1.6k otherwise the horn gets too big. 

Not if but when I go back to underdash horns ( waiting on a new car that will accommodate) I will probably run TADs with Beyma midbass and that's it .


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## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> Well the problem with that option is the size of the horn to support such a low XO point. That and the drivers get BIG and expensive fast for something that could play low and high at the same time. Even then you will give up treble performance to dome breakup for the low end performance.
> 
> Few guys around here like the BMS 8S215 better than the Audax and JBL...which really says a lot considering how good I think those old Audax and JBL sound. It's an 8 though...but would make a killer midrange though it's not the most sensitive mid in the prosound world.
> 
> The PHL 1120 is a great driver. That was the driver Acoustic Elegance was aiming at besting when they released their TD6M midrange. So that could be an option if you have deep pockets and some space since the motors are huge.
> 
> I am going to throw out another wild card- the Dayton PM180. Supposed to be excellent as a midrange. Accuton-like levels of distortion in the midrange.



I've ended up at that speaker sever times now when browsing PE. 

At94$ ea . It's worth a try at least .


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## thehatedguy

The 6 is supposed to be pretty nice...the 8 is sort of a dog from what I've read.


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## edzyy

PHL 1120 not available? 

You can grab em directly at WARaudio PHL 1120/E17 - WAR Audio l Online Store


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## thehatedguy

Shipping from Australia to the US is probably going to be expensive...but the exchange rate could help.


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## edzyy

thehatedguy said:


> Shipping from Australia to the US is probably going to be expensive...but the exchange rate could help.


Good point. 

I've been looking hard at the B&C 6MD38 & Celestion NTR06-1705B


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## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> The 6 is supposed to be pretty nice...the 8 is sort of a dog from what I've read.


Where do you go to get reading material? 
I want/need a good source of brain nourishment


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## thehatedguy

These days it's limited to DIY Audio and Parts Express forums. Sometimes I'll check out DIY Sound Group forums, AVS Science forum, and HT Guide.


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