# Why the need for super high-end equipment?



## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

I've noticed with a lot of SQ snobs in the car audio industry they think they can't get a high quality sound unless they have Misconi or Sifoni amplifiers with focal Utopia or morel elate mids to achieve audio Nirvana. This is what I don't get... With real high-end lossless audio I don't give a damn if you have Infinity kappa components from the mid-90s... those songs will sound like the best you've ever heard.

My system right now is considered mid-grade(stereo integrity tm65 lll mids, SB acoustic sb29 tweeters, Zapco STX 6 channel SQ, Memphis audio PRX 1500 .1, stereo integrity rm15, JL audio twk 88, Sony Double-Din DX 7000) the gains aren't set correctly time alignment is off I don't have pure silver RCA cables definitely not a very good tune and bands like Nils Lofgren sound like you're in the damn recording studio. I can hear the pick stroke across the strings and and sucking the spit across the mic. with my bad tuning and mid grade level speakers and I can experience that type of sound quality. why in the hell would you spend $4,000 on an amplifier and $14,000 on a component set from Focal?

I get it the older we get the more money we make and we want the finer things in life. Please enlighten me why we have to spend so much money on drivers and amplification? I've had McIntosh and Genesis amps... To tell you the truth they didn't sound better than my DLS A series amps. I'm sure this has been discussed before thousands of times but I would like to hear people in my age group why we need to spend this kind of money to get the sound that we're going for. I'm 43 and I still haven't found my sound. I listen to mostly metal, a majority of the bands I listen to the recordings are pure crap. So why spend this kind of money on really nice speakers and amplifiers if I'm going to get mediocre sound to go with it? I find myself having to listen to Michael Jackson Pink Floyd dire straits... bands that I normally wouldn't listen to just to justify what I have spent on my systems. Do you think when I allow people to get in my car that I play Slayer and dying fetus to show off my system? Absolutely not! I know it's going to sound like crap. I have listened to high quality music that's recorded very well thats been played with mid-level equipment and it sounds absolutely unreal. I just don't see why men would spend so much money on top of the line drivers like scanspeak focal and morel to only gain just a smidgen of an advantage.

I bet you can get some pyramid coaxials and do a good installation and Nils Lofgren will sound good.

Just my .02


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

If this is regarding our texts, i was implying the literal opposite...... expensive gear doesnt mean high end and isn't usually necessary


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

I was wondering the same. I just had a completely new system installed(all ARC Audio) and got the results that you described above with lesser investment on the hardware. However, I did not install the system. I had a very experienced installer and system tuner do the work. I spent a good amount in total though. I think the most important cost is the installation and tuning. I have read you can have "cheaper" speakers if the tuning done is excellent.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> If this is regarding our texts, i was implying the literal opposite...... expensive gear doesnt mean high end


This definitely has nothing to do with our communication. I just think it's weird that my system is not properly tuned and this lossless high production music sounds bad ass in my car LOL


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kountz said:


> I just think it's weird that my system is not properly tuned and this lossless high production music sounds bad ass in my car LOL


i can promise based off of context clues alone that it doesnt.... yet


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> g. I have read you can have "cheaper" speakers if the tuning done is excellent.


Its more about using them in the way they were intended. Use the right tool for the job. A 3" midrange speaker doesnt always call for the same needs as the next 3" midrange speaker. enclosure types, frequency range, install limitations, power handling, output needs, distortion, frequency response, etc...


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

I know a truck driver from Chicago that has a $200,000 Volvo top-of-the-line tractor and this guy put in the best amplifiers and speakers money can buy and I swear it does not sound better than the system I had in my old mustang. He probably has $40,000 in his sound system. All morel with sifoni amplifiers. It sounded good but definitely wasn't worth what he put into it.


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## F150Man (Apr 14, 2017)

To YOU, it wasn't (isn't) worth it.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

F150Man said:


> To YOU, it wasn't (isn't) worth it.


Im a musician. I play guitar and drums. I have a very good musical ear and I don't hear the fine nuances that these high dollar car audio snobs claim they can hear. I'm not buying it. I've also invested in some pretty nice home theater/ HiFi systems and I had bryston amplifiers and they only sounded a smidgen better than my Yamaha Pro amps. Not worth it at all


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## Rainstar (May 22, 2017)

If you are happy with what you have why critique what other people have or use. 
I must say I much prefer an SQ snob to a SPL one.

If you disagree with the men spending money on a hobby why not ask a woman of that same hobby what she spends. And compromise.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Rainstar said:


> If you are happy with what you have why critique what other people have or use.
> I must say I much prefer an SQ snob to a SPL one.
> 
> If you disagree with the men spending money on a hobby why not ask a woman of that same hobby what she spends. And compromise.


I'm not saying that. I just don't agree with spending insane bookoo for audio equipment. Mid level fine... Super high end, waste.


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## Rainstar (May 22, 2017)

I also agree with you on spending insane bookoo for purses or exotic cars, waste.

there is a rarity, not many enthusiast spend crazily.

Some are smart enough to steal from the rich.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Kountz said:


> I'm not saying that. I just don't agree with spending insane bookoo for audio equipment. Mid level fine... Super high end, waste.


You don't have to spend insane bookoo! in car audio your installer and tuner makes all the difference. In home audio, experience and a room you can tame make all the difference. Listening to non **** music also helps 😉🍻


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

I'm going to be very exact here. 

*Why the need for super high-end equipment?*




You need water, food, air, heat, and some other crap called love and nurturing. 
*Car audio is not a need. It is a want. *

Happiness has no dollar factor. Its just how it is. Specs be damned, but some people go for that. 
Is there something missing? No. Its more like what is added. _And that is the short of it. _



*THE REST BELOW IS ALL ****E
Read at your own peril. *
======================================================================




The real question that keeps being asked time and time again. is that are you missing something from buying a $200 item vs a 15,000 item to Listen to Guns and Roses? Yes. The Babes. 

All jokes aside, 
if you are looking at WHY anyone would spend $5,ooo on a USB cable? There is a market for it. But with any audio item you purchase, what are you getting for your money? 

The simplest answer to that question is something most people don't ever seem think about. From the first one to the second one, they will work, install, measure & be exactly like the first one. If you are an installer, this is not to be taken for granted. 


There was a thread posted just a few days ago about a sub woofer that its specs did not match up. So building a box for it from those numbers is giving the end user a problem. Its things like this that are not going to happen (Or should not) with higher end gear. 

Few understand how much getting something like the expertise of having someone take a woofer, and not only match it to the box, but your car as well. It never dawns on people just how much time and effort is spent doing something like that. Its no small feat. 

I mentioned for example how a system sounded in a cold car vs hot car, and I got some eyebrows. Its things like this that you pay for. Repeatably. It will sound or be just as you purchased it. If you are the installer, its going to do that every single time. 

As you go up the range, you are looking at things that sonic wise, don't seem to be a big deal. But just having the best of what is out there gives you a peace of mind. You and I for example can troubleshoot just about anything. Not so with most people. So instead of making any compromises, you eliminate all of them. 

In fact, there are some times that you could buy a great high dollar piece of kit, and then realize that it sounds dull, flat and emotionless. This has been the case with some very esoteric gear. But they still manage to sell them on virtue alone. Indeed some gear has been built to the point that 20 to 40 years down the road, they will still function just as they were new. That's a pretty amazing feat. 

So are you paying for sound? Not really. That's the thing about esoteric parts. Crutchfeld for example has a $2,000 tweeter from Focal. Does it sound to your ears better then say a MD102 from Dynadio? On Paper it says it should. Its made out of Beryllium. The tolerance of that driver is out of this world aerospace grade. But does it sound any better? What about feels better? That's the magic lottery ticket. 

Do you know why I bought my SMD Meter? It made me feel better having one. Could I build one? Yes. Would I like using it as much as his? No. Just how it is. 

You could tell me that my old Sony XM Amp is not the best. I don't care. I love it. Same with my Aura Amp. Even though its broken, I Feel the pride knowing that guys from NASA made that company. And made the amp that I covet. I don't know anyone who has one around me either. 

Why do I like Dynaudio? I love Volvo's. Nuff said about feelings being more important then performance. Often its just something that you are use too. Or Find amazing. I have 2 pairs of Magnepans. I don't ever even use them. But I like the way they look. 

Often times its up to the people you know who are behind the Company or products. Part of it is Nostalgia. Some of it is knowing that this guy knows what he is doing or that company. Knowing that you purchased something that is agreed upon being the best is often what it takes to make the sale. 

Its not that lower priced parts can not meet or beat your experience you can get with lower priced items. It just does not hold its value over time to the end user. 

Its the same camp that will tell you Solid state vs Tube where one is better then the other. And Chip amps like the Toshiba's I run have almost a tube like sound to them. But have been replaced with the LM chips. 

Could I convince you that my OEM Infinity Amps in my Van sound every bit as good as a custom setup build in a DIYAudio chassis? Nope. But to my ears? They sound wonderful. 


And I hear your about music you like vs reference recordings. I was years ago ready to Plop my money down and walk out with some Martin Logan speakers. I listened to them and realized, MY CD"s SUCK BALLS! 

The bands I love don't sound all that great the more revealing the recordings are. In fact, I hated the experience. That may be the first time I ever said to myself "I really think these hifi nuts are crazy".

Sure they sounded good or great on some CD's I brought in. But overall, it was so revealing, it made only the Best recordings sound good. 

Sting sounded good. do remember that. But overall, it was so ...Well. Flat. There was no "Beef". 

After that I gave up on Audio for a LONG time. I thought there was something wrong with my ears. 
Then I heard the Infinity system that I got in a minivan that had a Kenwood deck in it. Whoa! That's what music is suppose to sound like! And it just went from there. Dynaudio is the house sound I like as of late. 

For some people HATE distortion of any kind and are REALLY sensitive to it. For me, the very first system that could play Piano without the tweeter distorting or crackling was it for me. Sold. I'm so ANAL about that I have 12 tweeters and 2 dome mid-ranges in my front stage. All driven at relatively low power. But the sound man.. Nothing can compare. And the fact that I built it ALL my self with most parts I got used or from a junkyard? That's the joy. 

Taste in audio is like Beer, women wine. 

But what gear you prefer? That's like enjoying a dick in your mouth vs in your ******* Its that polarizing. 
I got a buddy in New York who SWEARS that Tube Amps and Dicks are life. He loves stuff that just works, but then gets a New Macbook every other year as they break? 


Its just how it is man. Just trust your ears. Your eyes are easy to fool. That explains Traps.

And lets face it. People love to be loved for standing out. Some do it just to stand out. Some get why Citroen and Alfa exist. Its not just specs, as those can be good. Its how the gear makes you feel. 

=============================================================


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Rainstar said:


> I also agree with you on spending insane bookoo for purses or exotic cars, waste.
> 
> there is a rarity, not many enthusiast spend crazily.
> 
> Some are smart enough to steal from the rich.


I'll give you a prime example: MB Quart QSD 216 Fanboys. I know a guy that has 14 sets of those components. He thinks they're the best of the best because they were considered best of the best back in the day. He was one of the many numbnuts that spent $1,500 for a set for those components. Those speakers to me had weak midbass and their tweeter's were way too bright. he's also a JL audio fanboy he thinks that the w7 is the best of the best and thanks people trash it because they can't afford it.. breitling vs. Rolex... Seiko vs. Citizen. I'm saying spend money on what sounds awesome not because of the price tag. you see this too much in car audio.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

I just use high end equipment to lord it over everyone, and feel good about myself.

Much the same as why I like good tools.

The problem with the tools, is it becomes difficult to blames the tools for poor craftsmanship.

And a similar issue exists with the audio gear.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

imickey503 said:


> I'm going to be very exact here.
> 
> *Why the need for super high-end equipment?*
> 
> ...


this is probably the best response I have ever received on a public forum! I greatly appreciate the time you put into this post and sharing the knowledge that you have. Thank you very much 

I've given up on trying to find the best speakers and amps that will sound best for the type of music I listen to. it's just not going to happen.I thought if I spent more money on speakers and amps that the recordings would sound better. I was totally wrong if anything those albums sounded worse with high-end equipment. I only have six albums that are metal that sound awesome in a high-end sound system. Right now I'm infatuated with hearing really good drum tracks on YouTube and that satisfies me right now. It reminds me of my old football playing days listening to the marching band during halftime. I like that live percussive accurate sound.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Holmz said:


> I just use high end equipment to lord it over everyone, and feel good about myself.
> 
> Much the same as why I like good tools.
> 
> ...


Yes as i get older i have no time or patience for crap anything. Especially tools


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Kountz said:


> this is probably the best response I have ever received on a public forum! I greatly appreciate the time you put into this post and sharing the knowledge that you have. Thank you very much
> 
> I've given up on trying to find the best speakers and amps that will sound best for the type of music I listen to. it's just not going to happen.I thought if I spent more money on speakers and amps that the recordings would sound better. I was totally wrong if anything those albums sounded worse with high-end equipment. I only have six albums that are metal that sound awesome in a high-end sound system. Right now I'm infatuated with hearing really good drum tracks on YouTube and that satisfies me right now. It reminds me of my old football playing days listening to the marching band during halftime. I like that live percussive accurate sound.


It's out there, i know you don't want to hear it or believe it but it's obtainable.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

dcfis said:


> It's out there, i know you don't want to hear it or believe it but it's obtainable.


The problem with really high end speakers is they reveal bad recordings. the only component that I've ever had that didn't exploit bad recordings was my old DLS iridium three ways. Hell, even Scott Buwalda competed with those speakers before starting his own company. They were the closest thing to neutral/natural/zero fatiguing speakers I've ever used. I've been told that morrel sounds very similar to the DLS iridium series. maybe one day I'll splurge and go with some top-of-the-line morels and see what all the hype is about


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

dcfis said:


> Yes as i get older i have no time or patience for crap anything. Especially tools


My interest is piqued...


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## mikechec9 (Dec 1, 2006)

Kountz said:


> The problem with really high end speakers is they reveal bad recordings. the only component that I've ever had that didn't exploit bad recordings was my old DLS iridium three ways. Hell, even Scott Buwalda competed with those speakers before starting his own company. They were the closest thing to neutral/natural/zero fatiguing speakers I've ever used. I've been told that morrel sounds very similar to the DLS iridium series. maybe one day I'll splurge and go with some top-of-the-line morels and see what all the hype is about


My Iridiums revealed everything awful about poor recordings but everything delightful about great ones. And this was right around the compressed files/mp3 explosion (just awful). From what I gather, Morels tend to have a relatively dull signature. My Iridiums were quite lively, open and dynamic. I had the 6.5 3ways l, but I still rock the 8” as a dedicated midbass.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

gotta love these topics


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## teh_squirrel (Jan 16, 2020)

I NEEEEEEED IT MAN! I loved my basic system in my versa for years (4v alpine head unit, 2 basic amps, subs, front passive 2way), and I had similar systems for the past 15 years. I've always mounted the tweets near the midrange in the door. After my versa was trashed I went researching what I needed to hook up the subaru and read about all of the fancy new gear and thought how much better can it get?

I put my system from the versa into the subaru and the subs were decent but the high-end was awful. I had distortion around 2k ish on some songs but not other songs. A few songs sounded awesome, but most songs the vocals were muddy and about 1/4 of my tracks were just unplayable. Having the tweeters in the pillar really highlighted how bad it was. I figured I needed higher quality source music so I got rid of all my low bitrate songs, the ones I had listened to for years in the other car that were fine then... I replaced the head unit with one that would play flac files (and of course add a back-up camera and android auto, etc). The high end was still lacking. I replaced my diamond 2-way with the morel maximo 6 figuring the old diamonds had lost their luster. The morels were smoother but still had that almost same exact hystresis (crossover distortion) around 2k. I could lower that band on the graphic eq in my headunit to make it a little better but there were songs that it just butchered. It bothered me to no end that I put so much effort into my system and it sounded so poorly. It was better than factory of course but not good enough. 

Yesterday I finished getting my dsp installed and got my initial tune. The hystresis is GONE, the speakers are SO much smoother and cleaner. The detail is there. After doing basic eq to get everything within about 5 ish DB it sounds better than I EVER had it. Getting rid of those awful little passive crossovers with the .50$ caps and choosing the crossover point that works for YOUR CAR along with the EQ and precise time alignment just can't be beat. But then of course I blew 500$ on the dsp. (which arguably unlocked the rest of my equipment) 

Now I've decided I want a 3-way front  Of course. The gs25 fits perfectly in my dash and the response and specs are impressive. But if I get those, then I will need to get another 4 channel amp (which I needed anyhow because my rears are unplugged for now). I might as well upgrade the tweeters while I'm at it, right?? And so it begins. It's a fun hobby and I've learned so much this time around. This is the first time I've done real sound deadening, I have a cross-spectrum calibrated umik-1 + REW, I understand my PEQ and crossovers, and things have really opened up. Don't forget it's a hobby.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Porsche said:


> gotta love these topics


Ain't that the truth.


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## GoldRiver (Mar 16, 2020)

I spend my time improving my own life instead of concerning myself with the actions of other people.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Kountz said:


> this is probably the best response I have ever received on a public forum! I greatly appreciate the time you put into this post and sharing the knowledge that you have. Thank you very much
> 
> I've given up on trying to find the best speakers and amps that will sound best for the type of music I listen to. it's just not going to happen.I thought if I spent more money on speakers and amps that the recordings would sound better. I was totally wrong if anything those albums sounded worse with high-end equipment. * I only have six albums that are metal that sound awesome in a high-end sound system. *Right now I'm infatuated with hearing really good drum tracks on YouTube and that satisfies me right now. It reminds me of my old football playing days listening to the marching band during halftime. I like that live percussive accurate sound.


Yeah? Which are they. I'd love to play them in my new system.......... Black Sabbath The Wizard sounds pretty darn good. 

My system installation was completed last month so I've been spending a lot of time scouring my memory, playing songs that sounded great on my home audiophile system. Pink Floyd Animals, Dave Brubeck Take Five and the like. But I listen to mostly classic rock, jazz and blues so I am not up to date on current music or what was recorded incredibly well....I can't remember where I saw it but I once saw a thread where posters listed their top 5 songs. Not their favorite songs per se but songs that tested individual components, specific frequencies and imaging.
That would be a fun thing to do. I'm currently on TIDAL and picking through the maze of music trying to find the diamonds. The theme from Rollerball (Bach Toccata and Fugue) sounds great. On YouTube, someone posted "The Best Version Ever" by an unknown organ player. Can't find that version on TIDAL....Really tests a systems lows and mids.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Yeah? Which are they. I'd love to play them in my new system.......... Black Sabbath The Wizard sounds pretty darn good.
> 
> My system installation was completed last month so I've been spending a lot of time scouring my memory, playing songs that sounded great on my home audiophile system. Pink Floyd Animals, Dave Brubeck Take Five and the like. But I listen to mostly classic rock, jazz and blues so I am not up to date on current music or what was recorded incredibly well....I can't remember where I saw it but I once saw a thread where posters listed their top 5 songs. Not their favorite songs per se but songs that tested individual components, specific frequencies and imaging.
> That would be a fun thing to do. I'm currently on TIDAL and picking through the maze of music trying to find the diamonds. The theme from Rollerball (Bach Toccata and Fugue) sounds great. On YouTube, someone posted "The Best Version Ever" by an unknown organ player. Can't find that version on TIDAL....Really tests a systems lows and mids.


Annihilator- Alice in hell
Black label society- grimmest hits
Carcass- Heartwork
Deicide- once upon the cross


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

Yes.. THis is good. 
Reminds me of Tourniquet and some of the early stuff from Failure. 

I call this Speeding ticket Music.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Kountz said:


> I'm not saying that. I just don't agree with spending insane bookoo for audio equipment. Mid level fine... Super high end, waste.


thats your opinion, you know what they say about opinions, they are like .............which you seem to be one when you knock someone for spending there money on what they want because it doesn't make sense to you


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Kountz said:


> Im a musician. I play guitar and drums. I have a very good musical ear and I don't hear the fine nuances that these high dollar car audio snobs claim they can hear. I'm not buying it. I've also invested in some pretty nice home theater/ HiFi systems and I had bryston amplifiers and they only sounded a smidgen better than my Yamaha Pro amps. Not worth it at all


I don't think anyone has ever accused a drummer of having good hearing. 

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Porsche said:


> thats your opinion, you know what they say about opinions, they are like .............which you seem to be one when you knock someone for spending there money on what they want because it doesn't make sense to you


If you want to spend $100,000 on a replica katana I don't give a damn what you do with your money. I'm just questioning the reasoning behind it. When I lived in rancho Cucamonga California I've gotten into some cars with ridiculous sound systems and they didn't sound much better than mine. So if you're not gaining that much of an advantage why spend that money? Just like my Sennheiser hd650 headphones. there's people out there that will spend $700 just on cables. That to me is absolutely ridiculous. There's a market for it I just don't get it


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

if a esotar tweeter is installed properly and tuned properly it will always outperform the $175 tweeter. same goes for just about everything else. just because you heard a mega cost system that didn't sound worth a damn doesn't mean anything other than it was more than likely installed wrong, tuned for crap or had issues


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Porsche said:


> if a esotar tweeter is installed properly and tuned properly it will always outperform the $175 tweeter. same goes for just about everything else. just because you heard a mega cost system that didn't sound worth a damn doesn't mean anything other than it was more than likely installed wrong, tuned for crap or had issues




those systems didn't sound like **** I just didn't see that much of an upgrade in sound. My tattoo artist that is very well known, has been on tattoo reality shows... he's got a badass Aston Martin and the system in his car has Focal Utopia m series with mosconi amps and DSP. It sounds good but he thinks my mustang sounded better and I agree with him. So I guess a car that has a really nice system that "I" don't think sounds that great must suck because the shop didn't know what they were doing? Most people that have hifi systems in their car listen to lossless media files and I don't give a damn what kind of speakers you got that music is going to sound good in it. My car right now is poorly tuned gains aren't set correctly time alignment is off and I can play tracks from my tidal app and the system sounds good as hell. I can't stand it when people leave reviews for speakers and name off a list of all these bands and all those recordings are top-of-the-line I don't give a damn if you got pyramid coaxials from the flea market those songs are going to sound good LOL.

Just my personal opinion.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

opekone said:


> I don't think anyone has ever accused a drummer of having good hearing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


Most drummers run the show on stage and in the recording studio. Sitting behind the band we can hear if the guitars are out of tune and if The Amps sound like ****


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

like i said, opinions are like.............

not all installers, tuners, etc are equal..if your system in your mustang isn't tuned properly but it sounds better than the AM you speak of than that alone should tell you about how it is installed/tuned. just because it has a lot of highend gear in it means nothing just like i pointed out in post #33


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

I'll be the first one to say that expensive amps are a waste of money if you are buying them to improve sound quality. If you are buying them because they look sweet, are built like tanks, and have a great reputation, then spend what you want. But the boutique amps aren't something I can justify on my income, because they don't improve anything. I will confidently put my Kenwood XR up against Zapco, Sinfoni, MMats, etc. because a good amp is simply increasing the intensity of the signal, we've figured out how to do that with incredible accuracy decades ago. 

Speakers are a bit different. Speakers are very important to the final sound. Speakers and processing are the 2 biggest factors (you can make a case for install, but the balance between the install and amount/type of processing needed is what gets you there) in how good things will ultimately sound. That does not mean the speakers need to be expensive, a known brand, or unigue in any way. They just have be be used appropriately for the task you are expecting them to perform. Very good speakers will sound very bad when used outside of their indended job. 

Amps are something where the law of diminishing returns kicks in early. You can easily get a great 4 channel amp under $400. Spending more can get you some really cool stuff, but it isn't going to increase your sound quality potential much, if at all. 

Speakers are very important, but they don't have to be expensive, they just have to be used for the task that they are designed to perform optimally at.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Porsche said:


> like i said, opinions are like.............
> 
> not all installers, tuners, etc are equal..if your system in your mustang isn't tuned properly but it sounds better than the AM you speak of than that alone should tell you about how it is installed/tuned. just because it has a lot of highend gear in it means nothing just like i pointed out in post #33


I don't have that mustang anymore and that system was tuned by Jeff Smith. In my mustang I had DLS A series amps and DLS iridium components and Image Dynamics idmax subs. that's the best system I've ever had and I'm trying to beat it with this current car. I've never been much into competing and I've been told by numerous people that I could have competed with that car. My tattoo artist his vehicle was done at a very well-respected shop in Los Angeles. My opinion... Those DLS amps sound just as good if not better than those mosconi's. The only thing I was impressed with Romans car was those focal tweeters.


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## peace2peep (Nov 15, 2008)

It's a value proposition and I understand where the OP is coming from. However, it plays in almost every area of the capitalistic society. I don't NEED Starbucks (insert your guilty pleasure here) but Starbucks pleases me...so I buy Starbucks coffee. 

Some people want to bypass all the convos that go like this: "If you get its and then that wit the perfect amount of area and then you tune to this and such and with the proper box you can make this silk purse out of that sows..." Some folks ask, "What's the best I can afford?" and move on. It's annoying when YOU know someone can do much better or the same with much less expensive gear. But that's why there are so many car audio brands!

It's not always (most of the time) better, but it is desirable.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

peace2peep said:


> It's a value proposition and I understand where the OP is coming from. However, it plays in almost every area of the capitalistic society. I don't NEED Starbucks (insert your guilty pleasure here) but Starbucks pleases me...so I buy Starbucks coffee.


I think this situation is a bit more like... I want Starbucks, and my drink costs $6, but if I can get the same exact drink in a different cup that does not sport the Starbucks brand for $3 why would I spend $6? There is a lot of brand snobbery in this hobby, and oftentimes people aren't really aware that by spending more they aren't getting more.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

gijoe said:


> I think this situation is a bit more like... I want Starbucks, and my drink costs $6, but if I can get the same exact drink in a different cup that does not sport the Starbucks brand for $3 why would I spend $6? There is a lot of brand snobbery in this hobby, and oftentimes people aren't really aware that by spending more they aren't getting more.


I think the ultimate snobbery is TRU amp customers. They get custom heat sink paint jobs and they think their billet amps are the best of the best and they contribute any success in competition solely on those amplifiers.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Kountz said:


> I think the ultimate snobbery is TRU amp customers. They get custom heat sink paint jobs and they think their billet amps are the best of the best and they contribute any success in competition solely on those amplifiers.


They are beautiful amps, and if you have the money, why not? But, put me into the camp that says they aren't improving sonics over a good Alpine, Kenwood, JL, Pioneer, etc. amp. 

I don't see any problems with people running high end gear, I just hope that those people know that what they are paying for isn't necessarily providing a sound quality advantage.


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

So why not just buy the top of the line umik 1 from cross spectrum and tune your car with rew. 
you keep complaining about how bad it sounds on the music you like but that music can sound awesome IF you tune it. 
and you do not have a mid grade system. Your components are still much higher end in performance and price than the average system out there. I don’t think you realize what people are spending or actually not spending these days. Many systems cost less than you have in you si rm15 and they are saying the same thing about your equipment. 
did you know that boss audio is probably one of the most sold equipment on the planet. At least that’s what it looks like. It’s everywhere. Just to put it in perspective.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Iamsecond said:


> So why not just buy the top of the line umik 1 from cross spectrum and tune your car with rew.
> you keep complaining about how bad it sounds on the music you like but that music can sound awesome IF you tune it.
> and you do not have a mid grade system. Your components are still much higher end in performance and price than the average system out there. I don’t think you realize what people are spending or actually not spending these days. Many systems cost less than you have in you si rm15 and they are saying the same thing about your equipment.
> did you know that boss audio is probably one of the most sold equipment on the planet. At least that’s what it looks like. It’s everywhere. Just to put it in perspective.


I've always been under the impression that nothing can make a poor recording sound good. Does it matter how expensive your speakers and amplifiers are you kind of stuck with the bands you've always light to go see live. If that umik is a huge night and day difference compared to the JL audio twk 88 you bet your ass I'll buy it


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

The umik 1 is an rta mic that you need to properly tune your system. I was telling you that in the other thread as well. Spend the money get a mic and tune your system and your whole tune (pun intended and not intended lol) will change.

your issue is tuning the jl twk properly.


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

The thing is this, your system is the best sounding system until you actually hear a good sounding system, nobody here will never hear none of who’s talking here about their cheap equipment is the best system so all of this is pointless.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

I'm listening to my new system now and thinking, it sounds amazing and I'm 100% happy. I didn't cut corners but am wondering what could I have reasonably done to make it sound even better. Was it possible? The question is a line graph of cost to sound benefit. Has the graph peaked? Rhetorical question perhaps.


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## VegasStereo (Jan 22, 2020)

Kountz said:


> I've noticed with a lot of SQ snobs in the car audio industry they think they can't get a high quality sound unless they have Misconi or Sifoni amplifiers with focal Utopia or morel elate mids to achieve audio Nirvana. This is what I don't get... With real high-end lossless audio I don't give a damn if you have Infinity kappa components from the mid-90s... those songs will sound like the best you've ever heard.
> 
> My system right now is considered mid-grade(stereo integrity tm65 lll mids, SB acoustic sb29 tweeters, Zapco STX 6 channel SQ, Memphis audio PRX 1500 .1, stereo integrity rm15, JL audio twk 88, Sony Double-Din DX 7000) the gains aren't set correctly time alignment is off I don't have pure silver RCA cables definitely not a very good tune and bands like Nils Lofgren sound like you're in the damn recording studio. I can hear the pick stroke across the strings and and sucking the spit across the mic. with my bad tuning and mid grade level speakers and I can experience that type of sound quality. why in the hell would you spend $4,000 on an amplifier and $14,000 on a component set from Focal?
> 
> ...


High End like this do you mean? Lol


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## Rainstar (May 22, 2017)

VegasStereo said:


> High End like this do you mean? Lol
> View attachment 265221


That's the low end of sinfoni bruh.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Rainstar said:


> That's the low end of sinfoni bruh.


What a cheapskate! Let's make him feel bad until he upgrades that entry level amp.


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## VegasStereo (Jan 22, 2020)

Rainstar said:


> That's the low end of sinfoni bruh.


Yea whatever, Bruh.
Lmao


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Seems like the interconnects and speakers are where the money should be spent vs. an amp to a certain extent.


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## VegasStereo (Jan 22, 2020)

gijoe said:


> What a cheapskate! Let's make him feel bad until he upgrades that entry level amp.


Entry level. Lol
Perhaps an upgrade is in order. Lol


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Kountz, would you say all drum kits sound the same?


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Bchester6 said:


> Kountz, would you say all drum kits sound the same?


What do you think?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Tattoos to Aston Martins... if we get Nazis in here we will have a trifecta.

Generally better speakers have lower distortion, and are more revealing.
Whether one likes distortion or not is another question.

Better amps usually have lower distortion and noise. But amplifier distortion is usually lower than speaker distortion.(and tube amps sound nice) And low noise matter more for music which has enough air for the noise to be apparent.

Poor recording are not uncommon, and provide a limit right from the source.

Buying speakers based upon distortion levels is not a bad approach.
And buying amps based upon noise floor can also make some sense.

Most other metrics are more of opinions and rationalisations, than what can realistically be heard and justified.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Kountz said:


> What do you think?


A good drummer can make a cooking pot or trash can lid sound worth listening to.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Holmz said:


> A good drummer can make a cooking pot or trash can lid sound worth listening to.


That's nice


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

@Kountz - as you get deeper and deeper into this hobby, you kind of fall down the rabbit hole in the never-ending search for "better". Usually, that involves upgrading your equipment to higher-end stuff. 

After you get your system all setup and are happy, you'll eventually get "bored" and want to upgrade. Not because your system sounds bad - just because you're always striving to make it even better. In a lot of cases (maybe even most?), "you get what you pay for". There are exceptions - and as you get into the higher-end stuff, the improvements become smaller and smaller - but there are improvements to be had - regardless of the music type. Some of my favorite music to listen to on my system is Black Sabbath, believe it or not. Most of their albums sound like crap, but I have this "The Best Of Black Sabbath" FLAC rip (source unknown) - and it sounds freaking awesome - way better than their other albums I've listened to. Not sure if someone "processed" it or what, but damn does it sound good!  

I just bought a set of ~$900 3" coaxial speakers (Illusion Audio C3CX) - I didn't pay that much, but that's what they seem to be going for. I didn't need them - my system actually sounds pretty damn good, but I got bored and found them for a good price, so I'm going to try upgrading to them. It's just something I enjoy doing to try and squeeze more and more out of my system. Eventually, I'll probably upgrade my 6x9 midbass speakers to some AudioFrog speakers or something along those lines. Again, my system sounds good now (Kenwood Excelon speakers) - and I'm not unhappy, but I also know it can get better.

I also started off with a Rockford Fosgate DSR-1 DSP. Then I upgrade to a Helix DSP.3. Huge upgrade... 

It's fun to upgrade and sometimes you just get the bug while striving for "better".


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Kountz said:


> What do you think?


I think I grew up around a lot of musicians mostly drummers and they all have their own preferences. Brand snobbery is not just relegated to car audio. If you think high-end equipment is overpriced then by all means you should ditch your components and that fancy DSP you have trouble tuning. You keep reminiscing of your DLS setup but what baffles me is why you didn't go out and buy the same DLS components and amps. When you find a magical combo in car audio you stick with it because that's the Unicorn we're all looking for.


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## VegasStereo (Jan 22, 2020)

Holmz said:


> A good drummer can make a cooking pot or trash can lid sound worth listening to.


Very true Holmz. 👍


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Bchester6 said:


> I think I grew up around a lot of musicians mostly drummers and they all have their own preferences. Brand snobbery is not just relegated to car audio. If you think high-end equipment is overpriced then by all means you should ditch your components and that fancy DSP you have trouble tuning. You keep reminiscing of your DLS setup but what baffles me is why you didn't go out and buy the same DLS components and amps. When you find a magical combo in car audio you stick with it because that's the Unicorn we're all looking for.


Because they don't make the dls a series anymore. everything would have to be used if I find it. Most people don't like getting rid of those amps.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

Not siding with the OP or making any judgements about anybody, just sharing some recent results.
Pulled out four Morel Supremo MW6 woofers from my doors in the C Class.








Morel Supremo MW6


Supremo Series 6-1/2" midrange woofers




www.crutchfield.com




Replaced them with four Morel CAW 634 woofers.








Morel CAW634 6" Woofer


CAW634 Morel Classic Advanced Woofer Series, 6.3", 4 ohms




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com





Bolted them in, no re-tune, just fire it up!
Two front woofers are in 9.8 liter sealed door enclosures and the rear woofers are free air in the door.

The difference is, there is NO difference!
I thought they would not take the power the Supremo's did. 500 watts from a PDX-V9 to each woofer.
No problemo!! Clean as the Supremo. Detailed, hard hitting mid-bass for $140. 
I trust my ears and I have already sold the Supremos, that's how sure I am.

Again not picking a side just sharing results!


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

garysummers said:


> Not siding with the OP or making any judgements about anybody, just sharing some recent results.
> Pulled out four Morel Supremo MW6 woofers from my doors in the C Class.
> 
> 
> ...


So what you're implying is that it's possible that there is an outer limit to where expense is enough where spending more doesn't necessarily pay off. I think that's what the OP was inferring. 

Now, too bad there isn't a better way to quantify into a dictum.....


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Kountz said:


> I think the ultimate snobbery is TRU amp customers. They get custom heat sink paint jobs and they think their billet amps are the best of the best and they contribute any success in competition solely on those amplifiers.


Funny thing is; I literally just sent an email to TRU yesterday; asking if they could custom-build me a 6-channel Super Billet (and how much it would cost).

Snobbery...? Maybe - but I can live with that. 
Would it sound better than my Zapco Z-AP? Probably not.
Is it the sexiest damn amp I've ever seen? YEP!
Don't know if I'm going to get one right now (a lot of economic uncertainties at the moment). But I might...


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

jimmydee said:


> Funny thing is; I literally just sent an email to TRU yesterday; asking if they could custom-build me a 6-channel Super Billet (and how much it would cost).
> 
> Snobbery...? Maybe - but I can live with that.
> Would it sound better than my Zapco Z-AP? Probably not.
> ...




They are some sexy amps for sure


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Kountz said:


> Because they don't make the dls a series anymore. everything would have to be used if I find it. Most people don't like getting rid of those amps.


Ok I got ya..I never thought I would consider selling mine but things are weird right now and they may be up for sale sooner than later. I was waiting for the perfect install consisting a pair of A/d/s rs10's and Orion/Ads millenium comps. With the way things are going it may be this or selling my ass for money haha.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

garysummers said:


> Not siding with the OP or making any judgements about anybody, just sharing some recent results.
> Pulled out four Morel Supremo MW6 woofers from my doors in the C Class.
> 
> 
> ...


It's too bad you don't post here much. This forum could use some real experts again.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Bchester6 said:


> Ok I got ya..I never thought I would consider selling mine but things are weird right now and they may be up for sale sooner than later. I was waiting for the perfect install consisting a pair of A/d/s rs10's and Orion/Ads millenium comps. With the way things are going it may be this or selling my ass for money haha.


I had the same amps including the a1.


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

Kountz said:


> I've noticed with a lot of SQ snobs in the car audio industry they think they can't get a high quality sound unless they have Misconi or Sifoni amplifiers with focal Utopia or morel elate


You must be new around here, guy. 

Audiofrog>Every other audio brand ever conceived or will be conceived. 

oh..& buy a Helix DSP.


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Kountz said:


> I had the same amps including the a1.


You got first dibs should I decide to sell them bro.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Def!ant said:


> You must be new around here, guy.
> 
> Audiofrog>Every other audio brand ever conceived or will be conceived.
> 
> oh..& buy a Helix DSP.


You're right about that. everybody here is obsessed with audiofrog lol


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

gijoe said:


> It's too bad you don't post here much. This forum could use some real experts again.


Not an expert at anything, by far, but your words are kind. I check this board every now and then. If I see a thread I think I have something of knowledge to add, I will post.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Well that's being modest, haha.


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## VegasStereo (Jan 22, 2020)

Def!ant said:


> You must be new around here, guy.
> 
> Audiofrog>Every other audio brand ever conceived or will be conceived.
> 
> oh..& buy a Helix DSP.


Thats a bold statement.


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

VegasStereo said:


> Thats a bold statement.


Just spittin' fax like Cardi B.


----------



## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Def!ant said:


> You must be new around here, guy.
> 
> Audiofrog>Every other audio brand ever conceived or will be conceived.
> 
> oh..& buy a Helix DSP.


Active setups with acoustical interior modeling is the only way to achieve great sound..


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## VegasStereo (Jan 22, 2020)

Def!ant said:


> Just spittin' fax like Cardi B.


*Not being combative.*
Without doubt Audiofrog makes some great stuff, but to say they are > (greater than) any other brand concieved or still yet to be concieved is a bit excessive. 🙂


----------



## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

Bchester6 said:


> Active setups with acoustical interior modeling is the only way to achieve great sound..


..and how do you achieve that great sound? 

Audio Frog


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## VegasStereo (Jan 22, 2020)

Def!ant said:


> Just spittin' fax like Cardi B.


I spelled conceive wrong. 😁
I before E except after C.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

VegasStereo said:


> *Not being combative.*
> Without doubt Audiofrog makes some great stuff, but to say they are > (greater than) any other brand concieved or still yet to be concieved is a bit excessive. 🙂


Says the guy running entry level sinfoni amps, HA!


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Yep. Don't forget the mic either.


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## VegasStereo (Jan 22, 2020)

gijoe said:


> Says the guy running entry level sinfoni amps, HA!


You got me Joe.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

VegasStereo said:


> You got me Joe.


Lol


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Def!ant said:


> You must be new around here, guy.
> 
> Audiofrog>Every other audio brand ever conceived or will be conceived.
> 
> oh..& buy a Helix DSP.


Audiofrog's reputation preceeds them. Nothing but the utmost respect. But until I hear that they blow away ARC Audio's RS series, I'm going to reserve judgement.


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

VegasStereo said:


> *Not being combative.*
> Without doubt Audiofrog makes some great stuff, but to say they are > (greater than) any other brand concieved or still yet to be concieved is a bit excessive. 🙂


I was trying to lay down as much contextual sarcasm that I could. I'll try to spread on an additional jar of it next time.


----------



## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Audiofrog's reputation preceeds them. Nothing but the utmost respect. But until I hear that they blow away ARC Audio's RS series, I'm going to reserve judgement.


I'll give you one chance to repent your blasphemy before I get one of these guys to perma-ban you for heresy.


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## VegasStereo (Jan 22, 2020)

Def!ant said:


> I was trying to lay down as much contextual sarcasm that I could. I'll try to spread on an additional jar of it next time.


My apologies then.
I thought you were serious.


----------



## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Audiofrog's reputation preceeds them. Nothing but the utmost respect. But until I hear that they blow away ARC Audio's RS series, I'm going to reserve judgement.


You think the arc audio RS series are that good?


----------



## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

VegasStereo said:


> My apologies then.
> I thought you were serious.


Sweet baby Jesus, no. I was 100% being a troll.


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Kountz said:


> You think the arc audio RS series are that good?


Haha...it's high-end you wouldn't like it.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

garysummers said:


> Not siding with the OP or making any judgements about anybody, just sharing some recent results.
> Pulled out four Morel Supremo MW6 woofers from my doors in the C Class.
> 
> 
> ...


Careful there @garysummers! You're going to have the Morel dealers out there wanting to string you up by your toes for even suggesting that the Morel raw drivers might work in a car.


----------



## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Bchester6 said:


> Haha...it's high-end you wouldn't like it.


$500 to me doesn't seem high end LOL


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Audiofrog's reputation preceeds them. Nothing but the utmost respect. But until I hear that they blow away ARC Audio's RS series, I'm going to reserve judgement.


Sound quality wise, theyre on par with each other. Output potential wise, GB


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Careful there @garysummers! You're going to have the Morel dealers out there wanting to string you up by your toes for even suggesting that the Morel raw drivers might work in a car.


Doesnt Gary have door enclosures? If so, the swap makes sense


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> Doesnt Gary have door enclosures? If so, the swap makes sense


Yes and no. 



garysummers said:


> Bolted them in, no re-tune, just fire it up!
> *Two front woofers are in 9.8 liter sealed door enclosures and the rear woofers are free air in the door.*
> 
> The difference is, there is NO difference!
> ...


----------



## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Kountz said:


> You think the arc audio RS series are that good?


I definitely do.....I'm spending 3 hours at a clip in my garage jamming breaking them in in this virus situation...... I say clip but the speakers don't...Got to work them, and the ARC 10 sub in the passenger footwell, for 5 weeks so they can break in and be ready for another fine tuning....I am not any kind of an expert to be able to make a comparison to Audio Frog, Dynaudio, H.A.T. or any other high end component set. Or amplifiers(I'm using the ARC 1000.6/DSP). The funny thing is that my home system is all Focal Utopia's and Jeff Rowland amps but I didn't wan't to spend the cake for Focal's in my car. Why? Because I had the feeling that ARC Audio is so under the radar that their speakers and amps are a better deal for the quality.

The RS speakers came out last November I believe and it seems that not a lot of folks have given them a chance. Or reviews. I'd love to see Erin give them a work out and review but he has a lot on his plate right now. I must clarify though. My car did not have the room to place the RS 1.0 tweeters. I had no interest in A pillar work so I went OEM position in the sails with the ARC 1.0 28mm tweeters. They are really good I have to say. But there is more to the success of the sound. Deadening and tuning for sure.


----------



## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> I definitely do.....I'm spending 3 hours at a clip in my garage jamming breaking them in in this virus situation...... I say clip but the speakers don't...Got to work them, and the ARC 10 sub in the passenger footwell, for 5 weeks so they can break in and be ready for another fine tuning....I am not any kind of an expert to be able to make a comparison to Audio Frog, Dynaudio, H.A.T. or any other high end component set. Or amplifiers(I'm using the ARC 1000.6/DSP). The funny thing is that my home system is all Focal Utopia's and Jeff Rowland amps but I didn't wan't to spend the cake for Focal's in my car. Why? Because I had the feeling that ARC Audio is so under the radar that their speakers and amps are a better deal for the quality.
> 
> The RS speakers came out last November I believe and it seems that not a lot of folks have given them a chance. Or reviews. I'd love to see Erin give them a work out and review but he has a lot on his plate right now. I must clarify though. My car did not have the room to place the RS 1.0 tweeters. I had no interest in A pillar work so I went OEM position in the sails with the ARC 1.0 28mm tweeters. They are really good I have to say. But there is more to the success of the sound. Deadening and tuning for sure.


I spoke to someone at arc audio specifically about the speakers and they told me that they are extreme SQ oriented and are not suitable for the type of music I listen to. very laid-back and designed specifically for pure sound quality. I listen to mostly metal and I like to crank my music but I'm also looking for instrument separation and of course very low distortion.


----------



## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Kountz said:


> I spoke to someone at arc audio specifically about the speakers and they told me that they are extreme SQ oriented and are not suitable for the type of music I listen to. very laid-back and designed specifically for pure sound quality. I listen to mostly metal and I like to crank my music but I'm also looking for instrument separation and of course very low distortion.


Extreme SQ? What does that mean....Well, as I said, I'm no expert. But, I blasted Black Sabbath up nearly all the way, 175 W per channel, and I'm totally satisfied. The speakers ARE SQ and that's what I wanted. But I don't see how you'd be unable to listen to anything metal that you wanted. The speakers are very accurate....I think the amps and tuning are crucial though. I jammed to a whole lot of genres at high volume. No distortion or vibrations. Wide soundstage and great separation. You can visualize where the musicians are.

All that being said, my car is a 2006 SLK55 and my cabin might be smaller than yours. And Mercedes may have gotten something right with the OEM sail tweeters. They point to the opposite seat throat level. That's a consideration. Also, I'd look into having the sub in your cabin. I'm so happy I did that.


----------



## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

"they told me that they are extreme SQ oriented and are not suitable for the type of music I listen to. very laid-back and designed specifically for pure sound quality."
IMHO this is why their is so much misunderstanding in the world of car audio.
In the recording studios where they record and mix the music that we listen to, do you think they change the studio monitors every day based on the type of music they will record and mix. They may have separate far field and near field monitors. A well designed speaker driver properly installed and aligned will play any type of music, well!
Just my $.02!


----------



## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Extreme SQ? What does that mean....Well, as I said, I'm no expert. But, I blasted Black Sabbath up nearly all the way, 175 W per channel, and I'm totally satisfied. The speakers ARE SQ and that's what I wanted. But I don't see how you'd be unable to listen to anything metal that you wanted. The speakers are very accurate....I think the amps and tuning are crucial though. I jammed to a whole lot of genres at high volume. No distortion or vibrations.
> 
> All that being said, my car is a 2006 SLK55 and my cabin might be smaller than yours. And Mercedes may have gotten something right with the OEM sail tweeters. They point to the opposite seat throat level. That's a consideration. Also, I'd look into having the sub in your cabin. I'm so happy I did that.


I'm just going by what they told me I was pretty surprised they recommended there line below the RS series for the type of music I listen to. My 15 is in the trunk sealed. That would be a pretty big transition 4 Nissan Altima LOL


----------



## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Kountz said:


> I'm just going by what they told me I was pretty surprised they recommended there line below the RS series for the type of music I listen to. My 15 is in the trunk sealed. That would be a pretty big transition 4 Nissan Altima LOL


They recommended the Black Series? Interesting. Maybe they lean towards SPL? Too bad you don't live in Florida. We could hang out and jam.

My ARC 10 is in a .75 cu. ft box. Ported at the bottom.

Maybe you scared them! Ha..Could be I get the results I get due to the 1000.6/PS8.8 DSP. I'm gonna play the metal albums you listed. 

Perhaps there's an ARC dealer near you? Tint World is the countrywide dealer. If you wanted, I could ask my dealer for a recommendation in your area to swing by and talk to if you're interested.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> They recommended the Black Series? Interesting. Too bad you don't live in Florida. We could hang out and jam.
> 
> My ARC 10 is in a .75 cu. ft box. Ported at the bottom.
> 
> I think you scared them! Did you speak to Brad in technical? Maybe I get the results I get due to the 1000.6/PS8.8 DSP. I'm gonna play the metal albums you listed. I expect great sound. Maybe there's an ARC dealer near you? Tint World is the countrywide dealer. If you wanted, I could ask my dealer for a recommendation in your area to swing by and talk to.


that would be cool. The best party boat I've ever been on was all arc ardio and it sounded bad ass. Most of the stuff I listen to is death and black metal. The recordings just aren't that good. I'm starting to listen to more thrash metal because I guess they were pretty popular in the late 80s and early 90s and they had some decent producers and recording studios.bands like napalm death morbid Angel obituary deicide... The recordings weren't up to my standards that's for sure. All I ask for is solid impactful double kick drum. They couldn't even do that LOL


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Kountz said:


> that would be cool. The best party boat I've ever been on was all arc ardio and it sounded bad ass. Most of the stuff I listen to is death and black metal. The recordings just aren't that good. I'm starting to listen to more thrash metal because I guess they were pretty popular in the late 80s and early 90s and they had some decent producers and recording studios.bands like napalm death morbid Angel obituary deicide... The recordings weren't up to my standards that's for sure. All I ask for is solid impactful double kick drum. They couldn't even do that LOL


You have a bigger cabin than I do. Significantly. As I have 2 door and you have a 4 door. I imagine the doors in the back have speakers. Do you/will you have a 3 component set up front? I'll have to defer to the experts here. Sounds like a more involved equation for your car.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> You have a bigger cabin than I do. Significantly. As I have 2 door and you have a 4 door. I imagine the doors in the back have speakers. Do you/will you have a 3 component set up front? I'll have to defer to the experts here. Sounds like a more involved equation for your car.


the rear deck and back doors are all disconnected all I have is a two-way active set for the front stage and a stereo Integrity rm15 sealed in the trunk.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Kountz said:


> the rear deck and back doors are all disconnected all I have is a two-way active set for the front stage and a stereo Integrity rm15 sealed in the trunk.


Hmmm. Maybe that's why the Black series was recommended? You have an OEM 29mm tweeter and 6.5" midbass?


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> They recommended the Black Series? Interesting. Maybe they lean towards SPL? Too bad you don't live in Florida. We could hang out and jam.
> 
> My ARC 10 is in a .75 cu. ft box. Ported at the bottom.
> 
> ...


Maybe they recommended the Black series because of power handling capabilities?


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Hmmm. Maybe that's why the Black series was recommended? You have an OEM 29mm tweeter and 6.5" midbass?


This car did not come with the Bose stereo so it doesn't have a factory separate tweeter location. It has a 6.5 inch factory woofer in the door and a 3 in mid in the dash. Right now I have a SB acoustics sb29 tweeter mounted on the 8 pillars in some pods and stereo integrity tm65 lll mids in the doors


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Bchester6 said:


> Maybe they recommended the Black series because of power handling capabilities?


I have plenty of power on Deck. I'm running the STX 6-channel zapco


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kountz, they probably told you that because they picked up some clues and though "****, this guy is going to blow these speakers. Best to have him do it to some other speakers instead" lol


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> Kountz, they probably told you that because they picked up some clues and though "****, this guy is going to blow these speakers. Best to have him do it to some other speakers instead" lol


all my years of existence, I've only blown one woofer and that was some CDT es components. It was actually a bad capacitor on their part in their passive crossovers. That includes subwoofers never blown them. If some $550 mid woofers can't handle being crossed over at 80 Hertz playing loud volume then to me they're not worthy. They recommended their black series because they said they have a little more midbass. I told them I wanted to hear kick drum coming from the front of the vehicle.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kountz said:


> all my years of existence, I've only blown one woofer and that was some CDT es components. It was actually a bad capacitor on their part in their passive crossovers. That includes subwoofers never blown them. If some $550 mid woofers can't handle being crossed over at 80 Hertz playing loud volume then to me they're not worthy. They recommended their black series because they said they have a little more midbass. I told them I wanted to hear kick drum coming from the front of the vehicle.


Up front bass doesn't exactly have as much to do with a beefy midbass as you think. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> Up front bass doesn't exactly have as much to do with a beefy midbass as you think.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


My next vehicle I will make certain that I have kick panel depth big enough to house a 10" mid woofer. to me, you can't get that concert feel in a vehicle unless you got some big drivers or multiple 6.5 mids in the doors. The best systems I've heard in cars had large midranges. There's only so much you can do with a 6.5 inch midrange in the door.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

VegasStereo said:


> I spelled conceive wrong. 😁
> I before E except after C.


if you were as lazy, and as bad at spelling as me,... then using the f-bomb in its place is a consideration.


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

I know I'm going to get **** on for this. But.. On your tweeters? Try a small Tube Amp. _See_ if you like the sound. Or a Tube Preamp unit that can be had for cheap from your DSP to your amp you got and set the Bias to high if you can. The kits are cheap, and it would be something worthwhile to try. 

I know.. It should all sound good anyways, but I think you will like the sound. Something to do with Harmonics of tubes. I built 2 tweeters, Next month I can send you a set to borrow so you to try out. See if you like them.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

imickey503 said:


> I know I'm going to get **** on for this. But.. On your tweeters? Try a small Tube Amp. _See_ if you like the sound. Or a Tube Preamp unit that can be had for cheap from your DSP to your amp you got and set the Bias to high if you can. The kits are cheap, and it would be something worthwhile to try.
> 
> I know.. It should all sound good anyways, but I think you will like the sound. Something to do with Harmonics of tubes. I built 2 tweeters, Next month I can send you a set to borrow so you to try out. See if you like them.


Are you talkin to me? I'm all about guitar to baps I never tried them in a vehicle. Always wanted to try a tube amp for headphones


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

EDITED:
Yea dude. 
Who else?

Just let me know around the first and I can ship the tweeters out and you try them out. See how they work.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

imickey503 said:


> EDITED:
> Yea dude.
> Who else?
> 
> Just let me know around the first and I can ship the tweeters out and you try them out. See how they work.


Sure that sounds cool. What type of tweeters are they? I imagine they're soft dome?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

garysummers said:


> "they told me that they are extreme SQ oriented and are not suitable for the type of music I listen to. very laid-back and designed specifically for pure sound quality."
> IMHO this is why their is so much misunderstanding in the world of car audio.
> In the recording studios where they record and mix the music that we listen to, do you think they change the studio monitors every day based on the type of music they will record and mix. They may have separate far field and near field monitors. A well designed speaker driver properly installed and aligned will play any type of music, well!
> Just my $.02!


I completely agree. This morning I was listening to the Go and See podcast that @SkizeR turned me on to. In it, one of the Mark Levinson engineers is demoing the system in the Lexus LS. First he plays an orchestral track with a choir to demonstrate their 3D effects and dynamics and then follows it up with some Lamb of God. An OE system engineer. Demoing a stock Lexus.



SkizeR said:


> Kountz, they probably told you that because they picked up some clues and though "****, this guy is going to blow these speakers. Best to have him do it to some other speakers instead" lol


This is the very first thought I had as well. They probably pointed him toward the Blacks as they were the previous flagship models and look like they might be a bit more robust.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

rton20s said:


> I completely agree. This morning I was listening to the Go and See podcast that @SkizeR turned me on to. In it, one of the Mark Levinson engineers is demoing the system in the Lexus LS. First he plays an orchestral track with a choir to demonstrate their 3D effects and dynamics and then follows it up with some Lamb of God. An OE system engineer. Demoing a stock Lexus.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the very first thought I had as well. They probably pointed him toward the Blacks as they were the previous flagship models and look like they might be a bit more robust.


I thought that was really funny when he said "now let me put on some heavy metal" and i thought oh, i hope i know this song. It was Grace by Lamb Of God, one of my favorite songs by one of my favorite bands lol


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> I thought that was really funny when he said "now let me put on some heavy metal" and i thought oh, i hope i know this song. It was Grace by Lamb Of God, one of my favorite songs by one of my favorite bands lol


I like to listen to Lamb of God drums only. It's only in 480p but it sounds badass in a good system


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

For all you Rush fans and all you rock fans, this sounds great and is pretty excellent:








Watch Members of Anthrax, Suicidal Tendencies, and Testament Cover Rush's 'La Villa Strangiato'


Metal trio came together virtually to tackle the legendary 1978 prog instrumental




www.rollingstone.com


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

Kountz said:


> Sure that sounds cool. What type of tweeters are they? I imagine they're soft dome?



Plasma..

*just kidding. * Volvo Dynaudio tweeters I installed new soft parts too. They will need a hot supper to break in. But I think you will like the tone they have. In my system, they have a very smooth and non fatiguing sound. 

They sound best on axis with reasonable off axis response. Measured at ~8 ohms. 

Just did some Sweeps and they are butter smooth. A bit more laid back then a MD-102 or (MD-100?) tweeter in the upper range. 

The have a very open sound but somewhat rolled top end that is detailed, but lacks harshness while being slightly more forward sounding in the 2.5 - 5 kHz band then a standard Dyn tweeter. 

I think you will like them. 
Let me Know and I will Ship them out to you on the first to try them out.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

imickey503 said:


> Plasma..
> 
> *just kidding. * Volvo Dynaudio tweeters I installed new soft parts too. They will need a hot supper to break in. But I think you will like the tone they have. In my system, they have a very smooth and non fatiguing sound.
> 
> ...


I am most certainly interested. after doing a full tuning with these SB acoustic sb29 tweeters...I'm not digging them. I do have a set of hertz 280.3 but I've always wanted to try a dynaudio


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

They are not Dyns anymore. More like a Bastard hybrid. They got no problem playing low but I don't give them much more then maybe 5-10 watts of music power. Just did a few frequency sweeps, and I did not hear anything that stuck out. 

I played them full range to test them at low volumes, and they can take a bit of a beating and keep on ticking. 

These are NOT ferrofluid cooled. But I have had Zero issues with them so far. 

Just remind me on the first as I got a TERRIBLE memory and I will ship them out. Be nice to see what other people think about them.


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## BadSS (Feb 2, 2008)

gijoe said:


> I'll be the first one to say that expensive amps are a waste of money if you are buying them to improve sound quality. If you are buying them because they look sweet, are built like tanks, and have a great reputation, then spend what you want. But the boutique amps aren't something I can justify on my income, because they don't improve anything. I will confidently put my Kenwood XR up against Zapco, Sinfoni, MMats, etc. because a good amp is simply increasing the intensity of the signal, we've figured out how to do that with incredible accuracy decades ago.
> 
> Speakers are a bit different. Speakers are very important to the final sound. Speakers and processing are the 2 biggest factors (you can make a case for install, but the balance between the install and amount/type of processing needed is what gets you there) in how good things will ultimately sound. That does not mean the speakers need to be expensive, a known brand, or unigue in any way. They just have be be used appropriately for the task you are expecting them to perform. Very good speakers will sound very bad when used outside of their indended job.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more. Some of the best sounding and lowest distortion level speakers I've ever heard were $40 each from PE Express on close out (Vifa MG18s). Running active and using time alignment to me makes all the difference in the world - assuming good speakers and install.

Also agree on the amps. I'm a bit of a noise floor snob and typically it seems that means a good quality amp. However, as you've said, that doesn't mean you have to go with a really high dollar or an elitist amp. To kinda sorta make that point, I had some time on my hands and thought you might find this interesting. The XR400-4 amp (blue/red) received a higher score rating, has a lower signal to noise ratio, and overall lower distortion than the Sinfoni Presto Ad-Lib (green/yellow) - puts out a few more watts to boot.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

I've been watching IASCA competition videos on you tube where they all describe their systems. They mostly send A LOT of power to their mids and mid bass speakers. Like 350W+...If we assume for discussion sake that all amps are equal, have equal tuning, and that it's competition, is it really more beneficial sonically to use that much power? Does it make a cost worthy, significant sound difference?


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## BadSS (Feb 2, 2008)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> I've been watching IASCA competition videos on you tube where they all describe their systems. They mostly send A LOT of power to their mids and mid bass speakers. Like 350W+...If we assume for discussion sake that all amps are equal, have equal tuning, and that it's competition, is it really more beneficial sonically to use that much power? Does it make a cost worthy, significant sound difference?


Not as much power in comparison, but when I went from 75/125 watts to 125/200 (same brand and series amps) on the same tweeters and mid-bass speakers, it seemed to make a difference. Not so much in the overall volume but slightly better dynamics. These were old school A/B amps with overbuilt power supplies. I believe if the amps would have had marginal power supplies the benefit would have been more significant from the power increase.

Cost worthy? I'd guess it depends on whether you're starting from scratch or not and how much you already invested in the amps. I'm definitely a believer of running as much power as you can afford and using the gains as a throttle stop/power limiter.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

I just had the ARC Audio 1000.6 w/DSP installed with RS 3 component speakers and tuned. The amp is 175Wx6. I'm delighted with the sound. But, I was wondering what I could have done, or could do in the future, to get even better sonics if it could be done. The "easiest" thing to do would be to add another amplifier. One for each side I guess. Bridging channels would then be 350W/ch. That's a lot of power.


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## Madmatt (Apr 15, 2020)

teh_squirrel said:


> I NEEEEEEED IT MAN! I loved my basic system in my versa for years (4v alpine head unit, 2 basic amps, subs, front passive 2way), and I had similar systems for the past 15 years. I've always mounted the tweets near the midrange in the door. After my versa was trashed I went researching what I needed to hook up the subaru and read about all of the fancy new gear and thought how much better can it get?
> 
> I put my system from the versa into the subaru and the subs were decent but the high-end was awful. I had distortion around 2k ish on some songs but not other songs. A few songs sounded awesome, but most songs the vocals were muddy and about 1/4 of my tracks were just unplayable. Having the tweeters in the pillar really highlighted how bad it was. I figured I needed higher quality source music so I got rid of all my low bitrate songs, the ones I had listened to for years in the other car that were fine then... I replaced the head unit with one that would play flac files (and of course add a back-up camera and android auto, etc). The high end was still lacking. I replaced my diamond 2-way with the morel maximo 6 figuring the old diamonds had lost their luster. The morels were smoother but still had that almost same exact hystresis (crossover distortion) around 2k. I could lower that band on the graphic eq in my headunit to make it a little better but there were songs that it just butchered. It bothered me to no end that I put so much effort into my system and it sounded so poorly. It was better than factory of course but not good enough.
> 
> ...


I dont know all the high end crazy expensive brands and think alot of the stuff is all hype.the biggest improvement ive ever had in a car stereo is addition of an audio control preamp high low pass crossover signal booster.it made my already good stereo fantastic.i had compoment mb quarts rear deck component soundstream reference in front doors and a pillar tweeters with passive crossovers from a different mb quart set for the front speakers ran alpine v12 amps front and rear one channel for each speaker crossovers allowed for bi amping or whatever its called.each speaker got its own channel the amps.were like 75x4 or close so.each tweeter got 75 each each mid 75 x8.had one diamond 12 sub dual voice coil ported box and kenwood.4v output deck sounded really good then i hooked up the little.audio control 2xs i cant remember model but it made every song so much better.so.much headroom crisp sound no distortion at crazy sound levels i had really.good sound deadening also and car had multiple extra grounds off battery and used monster cable or equivalent with 0 guage or 2 guage power and 12 to speakers.i listened to a few stereo installers personnal cars with focal and whatever and they sounded good but mine killed theres and i payed maybe 1000 or less most of my stuff i got as demo models or traded for or bought used.i still havent heard better sound quality.although i just got an audi and the damn stock stereo sounds pretty good for what it is im trying to figure out if i want to attempt to upgrade it without mangling the nice intrerior.this is my first post ever on one of these sites so i dont know whats proper protocol or whatever.i kinda rant a bit but im stuck at home trying to avoid the cov id and thought this could be a good way to be social while.isolating or whatever.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> I've been watching IASCA competition videos on you tube where they all describe their systems. They mostly send A LOT of power to their mids and mid bass speakers. Like 350W+...If we assume for discussion sake that all amps are equal, have equal tuning, and that it's competition, is it really more beneficial sonically to use that much power? Does it make a cost worthy, significant sound difference?


I could believe it for MB, and for MR I have a hard time, and tweeters even a harder time believing... unless the SPL is astonishingly high.




Kountz said:


> I like to listen to Lamb of God drums only. It's only in 480p but it sounds badass in a good system


I only made it through the first 32 seconds... so maybe I need a better system?


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Holmz said:


> I could believe it for MB, and for MR I have a hard time, and tweeters even a harder time believing... unless the SPL is astonishingly high.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here is another Brian Mitchell video with Dean showing off Brian's Cadillac system.





brian mitchell arc audio - Yahoo Video Search Results


The search engine that helps you find exactly what you're looking for. Find the most relevant information, video, images, and answers from all across the Web.




video.search.yahoo.com





The ARC shop owner where I bought and got my gear installed is a buddy of Brian's. He was in town for a corporate event, brought his Caddy to the shop(I missed that dammit) and made a trip to the shop just to talk to me about ARC and my car. Even sat in it as we plotted out my install. So nice of him to do.

In his car, which is gonzo, he has 2 SE 4200 amps but he bridged channels for extra power to his Midbass only....I thought that you wanted to send the same power to all speakers but I guess you can mix it up.

I need to figure out which second amplifier to get to do the same. I'll ask my ARC shop. They may tell me to chill.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> ...
> 
> The ARC shop owner where I bought and got my gear installed is a buddy of Brian's. ...
> ...
> ...


I am intèrested in what you find out.

People always are talking about 6channel or 5. Channel amp's with hundreds of watts.channel... a small 4-channel and then a beefy 2 channel, or bridgable 4 channel,for the MB make some sense.

So it is interesting to know what the upper end of town is doing.

(I would probably lean towards some Class-A for tweeter/MR and then use a monster class-D for MB and sub, if I had stacks of $100 bills laying around.)


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I use a JL Audio 75W x 6 class-D amp and I like loud music - and I honestly can't even use the full power with what I have (it would just be too damn loud for any sustained listening) - and that is with only 75W. I just can't imagine why you'd need so much power if you just want volume levels for yourself _inside_ the car.  I think a lot of times, people want tons of power for "bragging rights" and to show how loud their stereo can get for people _outside_ of the car. 

If anything, I could see needing more power for midbass, but other that that, I just can't see how it's actually beneficial for 95%+ of people.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> I use a JL Audio 75W x 6 class-D amp and I like loud music - and I honestly can't even use the full power with what I have (it would just be too damn loud for any sustained listening) - and that is with only 75W. I just can't imagine why you'd need so much power if you just want volume levels for yourself _inside_ the car.  I think a lot of times, people want tons of power for "bragging rights" and to show how loud their stereo can get for people _outside_ of the car.
> 
> If anything, I could see needing more power for midbass, but other that that, I just can't see how it's actually beneficial for 95%+ of people.


I'm into SQ more than SPL. I am just thinking out loud about more power to get better sonics. Going the way Brian Mitchell did, I would only be upping the power to the 2 midbass speakers. What I thought of was with the 1000.6 I have, and I don't even know what's possible, leaving the 175W to each of the tweeters and midrange speakers and bridging 2 channels for 350W to one of the midbass speakers. That would be easy. But then I'd have to find a 2 channel amp that was 350W bridged. I'd want to stick with the ARC series amps but ARC doesn't make one with that rating. Actually none of their series do....In retrospect,the ARC 1000.4 is rated 250W/channel and 500W bridged. I could have gotten 2 of those(one with the DSP module) and that might have worked out the best for not a **** ton more money either. Although that's a heck of a lot of power. Maybe too much for the RS speakers. 

Also, the way that my shop set the gains, I can turn up the volume on my Sony XAV-AX500 nearly all the way to 50, and sometimes to 50, and it sounds fantastic and clean. No clipping, ear shattering volume or vibrations. This "upping the ante" is a habit with me....The shop owner will likely tell me to take a chill pill and enjoy the system as is, which I'll likely do.


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## The Italian (Feb 11, 2020)

Kountz said:


> I've noticed with a lot of SQ snobs in the car audio industry they think they can't get a high quality sound unless they have Misconi or Sifoni amplifiers with focal Utopia or morel elate mids to achieve audio Nirvana. This is what I don't get... With real high-end lossless audio I don't give a damn if you have Infinity kappa components from the mid-90s... those songs will sound like the best you've ever heard.
> 
> My system right now is considered mid-grade(stereo integrity tm65 lll mids, SB acoustic sb29 tweeters, Zapco STX 6 channel SQ, Memphis audio PRX 1500 .1, stereo integrity rm15, JL audio twk 88, Sony Double-Din DX 7000) the gains aren't set correctly time alignment is off I don't have pure silver RCA cables definitely not a very good tune and bands like Nils Lofgren sound like you're in the damn recording studio. I can hear the pick stroke across the strings and and sucking the spit across the mic. with my bad tuning and mid grade level speakers and I can experience that type of sound quality. why in the hell would you spend $4,000 on an amplifier and $14,000 on a component set from Focal?
> 
> ...


@Kountz, I don't have time to read the entire post, much less the thread (at least today). However, from what I did read about your equipment,* I don't consider your system to be mid anything!* Sure, if you add up the component values and compare them to what _*you can spend*_, there is plenty of room above that total. But as far as the quality that your system can produce, it will never be half as good as those costing a fortune.

And to put this into perspective. I have owned equipment considered both mid and high end. I have also driven vehicles with stereos costing as much as a decent new car, not to mention, the sound deadening, double glass windows, and acoustic designs costing car manufacturers small fortunes. None of these ever produced sound twice as good as a well thought out, properly installed, nicely turned systems with modest equipment (by snob standards).


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## Petererc (Dec 28, 2016)

I bought a brand new a 80prs, Dayton HO sub, silver flutes, xt25 tweeters and just recently i1000.4 which is the most expensive amp I own. Picked up a used 6to8v8 with amas/spdif for 250 bux, which was 50 more than the budget Dayton. Spent damn near more money on CLD and Ensolite than anything else. I upgraded speakers to Dynaudio 3way from junk Volvo’s for less than one leg of a frog. Have messed around with numerous less than 50 buck amps that ended up selling for small profits.
What’s the Point?
The point is all of you mofo’s are snobs lol. j/k. 
My point is have fun in your means, you only go through this thing once and can’t take it with you. I would love to throw a ton if money at this and get the latest and greatest stuff. Thing is if I am not happy now with what I have, the shiny neew stuff isnt going to make me happy. I would rather want what i have, than have what i want.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

garysummers said:


> Not siding with the OP or making any judgements about anybody, just sharing some recent results.
> Pulled out four Morel Supremo MW6 woofers from my doors in the C Class.
> 
> 
> ...


I really appreciate the honesty involved here, as well as, the ability to draw unbiased conclusions that are not based on price and appearance (higher end stuff looks the part) of the equipment being compared.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> I'm into SQ more than SPL. I am just thinking out loud about more power to get better sonics. Going the way Brian Mitchell did, I would only be upping the power to the 2 midbass speakers. What I thought of was with the 1000.6 I have, and I don't even know what's possible, leaving the 175W to each of the tweeters and midrange speakers and bridging 2 channels for 350W to one of the midbass speakers. That would be easy. But then I'd have to find a 2 channel amp that was 350W bridged. I'd want to stick with the ARC series amps but ARC doesn't make one with that rating. Actually none of their series do....In retrospect,the ARC 1000.4 is rated 250W/channel and 500W bridged. I could have gotten 2 of those(one with the DSP module) and that might have worked out the best for not a **** ton more money either. Although that's a heck of a lot of power. Maybe too much for the RS speakers.
> 
> Also, the way that my shop set the gains, I can turn up the volume on my Sony XAV-AX500 nearly all the way to 50, and sometimes to 50, and it sounds fantastic and clean. No clipping, ear shattering volume or vibrations. This "upping the ante" is a habit with me....The shop owner will likely tell me to take a chill pill and enjoy the system as is, which I'll likely do.


If you are serious about it, then here are my thoughts:

It would be possible to use a voltage divider and a soundcard mic input, or something else to measure the voltage at the speakers as a function of time.

Then playing music through the system one could measure the peak voltage as well as the RMS.
Or just measure the RMS voltage and assume that the crest factor is something like 15dB.
(Maybe more for classical)

I would be surprised if the tweeters were seeing more than 1W RMS, and more than 20W peak. The Midrange would be more, but even 50W RMS to a midrange is astonishingly loud.
If you knew though values it would go a long ways.

Basically if they are not getting up to clipping now, then they already have enough headroom... and more headroom should not make any difference.

I am sure that the midbass is requiring the lion's share, so adding power there makes the most sense to me... but I have not actually done those measurements myself, so it is more of a chin scratcher.

But if there is any place where you will run into clipping, it should be happening first on the MB.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Holmz said:


> If you are serious about it, then here are my thoughts:
> 
> It would be possible to use a voltage divider and a soundcard mic input, or something else to measure the voltage at the speakers as a function of time.
> 
> ...


That was interesting. Thanks.

I sent an email to my shop owner and asked about additional amplification thoughts but yet to hear back. I threw out 2 questions/options. One was, since I have the 1000.6, 175Wx6, what about bridging 2 channels therefore sending 350W to one midbass and keeping 175 to the mids and tweeters. Then getting a 2 channel amp to bridge to 350W for the other midbass and run that amp through the 1000.6's DSP. That sounds like it could be the most effective and least expensive option.

The other thought was getting another 1000.6 and bridging 12 channels to 6 and all speakers get 350W. With your calculaions, that might be quite the overkill. Yes?

I'll let you know what I hear back. In the meantime I'll continue to search for system testing songs and jam. I need to play the song Brian played on his video- The Last Rainforest. It's Electric Dance Music...Supposed to be a great system tester.


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## Shadow_419 (Aug 1, 2018)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> That was interesting. Thanks.
> 
> I sent an email to my shop owner and asked about additional amplification thoughts but yet to hear back. I threw out 2 questions/options. One was, since I have the 1000.6, 175Wx6, what about bridging 2 channels therefore sending 350W to one midbass and keeping 175 to the mids and tweeters. Then getting a 2 channel amp to bridge to 350W for the other midbass and run that amp through the 1000.6's DSP. That sounds like it could be the most effective and least expensive option.
> 
> ...


Smaller two channel amp for tweeters is more cost effective and would still allow you to bridge 4 channels for midbass.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Shadow_419 said:


> Smaller two channel amp for tweeters is more cost effective and would still allow you to bridge 4 channels for midbass.


Well that is an interesting idea. Thanks.

I'll talk to the shop about that. I understand what Holmz was saying but would I be wrong in thinking that I wouldn't want to have less than the 175W/ch for each tweeter that I have now? The tweeters sound so amazing now.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Well that is an interesting idea. Thanks.
> 
> ....would I be wrong in thinking that I wouldn't want to have less than the 175W/ch for each tweeter that I have now? The tweeters sound so amazing now.


They would still sound amazing even if you are using a 50 watt per channel amplifier...if you could measure them in use and when properly crossed, you would see that they are not getting much more then 10 watts even at extreme peaks.


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## Shadow_419 (Aug 1, 2018)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Well that is an interesting idea. Thanks.
> 
> I'll talk to the shop about that. I understand what Holmz was saying but would I be wrong in thinking that I wouldn't want to have less than the 175W/ch for each tweeter that I have now? The tweeters sound so amazing now.


I'm sure they sound great. You're extremely happy with the sound and it sounds like they did a great job tuning your system. Your tweeters are using less than 10 watts the majority of the time. You definitely want to always have headroom in your amplifier channels for peaks but tweeters don't need much power to get deafening loud.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Shadow_419 said:


> I'm sure they sound great. You're extremely happy with the sound and it sounds like they did a great job tuning your system. Your tweeters are using less than 10 watts the majority of the time. You definitely want to always have headroom in your amplifier channels for peaks but tweeters don't need much power to get deafening loud.





seafish said:


> They would still sound amazing even if you are using a 50 watt per channel amplifier...if you could measure them in use and when properly crossed, you would see that they are not getting much more then 10 watts even at extreme peaks.


Good stuff guys. Much appreciated... Yeah. The boss man did an amazing job tuning. He competed with an ARC system much like mine so he knows the ins and outs.

All the speakers are run actively so no crossovers. The ARC 1000.6 has no analog crossovers. In any case, it seems like if the tweeters are getting 175W, or that 175W is available, that is A LOT of wasted amp power. Would it make sense to design an amp with power gradients then? Most W's for midbass, less for the midranges and even less for the tweeters. Interestingly, my OEM Becker amp sort of did that. It was a 380W amp. 8 channels. 70W to the 8" woofers, 35 W to the mids. I think less to the tweeters and surrounds. But the mids and tweeters were wired in parallel to drop the impedance and the surrounds were wired in mono. 

This is all so interesting. I want to get the right amp for the tweeters to run through the 1000.6. ARC's lowest rated amp has 180Wx2($299) but it's a class G/H amp. The 1000.6 is a class D...The X2 450.4 is a class D at 250Wx2 bridged($439)...........Brian mentioned something in a video about impedance matching between amps. Don't know how that applies but sounded like an important thing.....I'll see what the shop owner has to say. Thanks a lot.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Good stuff guys. Much appreciated... Yeah. The boss man did an amazing job tuning. He competed with an ARC system much like mine so he knows the ins and outs.
> 
> All the speakers are run actively so no crossovers. The ARC 1000.6 has no analog crossovers. In any case, it seems like if the tweeters are getting 175W, or that 175W is available, that is A LOT of wasted amp power. Would it make sense to design an amp with power gradients then? Most W's for midbass, less for the midranges and even less for the tweeters. Interestingly, my OEM Becker amp sort of did that. It was a 380W amp. 8 channels. 70W to the 8" woofers, 35 W to the mids. I think less to the tweeters and surrounds. But the mids and tweeters were wired in parallel to drop the impedance and the surrounds were wired in mono.
> 
> This is all so interesting. I want to get the right amp for the tweeters to run through the 1000.6. ARC's lowest rated amp has 180Wx2($299) but it's a class G/H amp. The 1000.6 is a class D...The X2 450.4 is a class D at 250Wx2 bridged($439)...........Brian mentioned something in a video about impedance matching between amps. Don't know how that applies but sounded like an important thing.....I'll see what the shop owner has to say. Thanks a lot.


I mentioned this before in another thread - I'm waiting for the day where you just buy an amp with so many channels and a total number of watts - and the amp "distributes" the power to the channels dynamically, as needed. So you can buy a 6-channel, 600 watt-amp - or a 4-channel, 400-watt amp. Instead of "per channel" wattage ratings, there would just be the single "pooled" power rating - and the channels would take from that pool as needed. Ultimate flexibility!

Yes, there are some technical issues to worry about, but it's nice to dream.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Petererc said:


> I bought a brand new a 80prs, Dayton HO sub, silver flutes, xt25 tweeters and just recently i1000.4 which is the most expensive amp I own. Picked up a used 6to8v8 with amas/spdif for 250 bux, which was 50 more than the budget Dayton. Spent damn near more money on CLD and Ensolite than anything else. I upgraded speakers to Dynaudio 3way from junk Volvo’s for less than one leg of a frog. Have messed around with numerous less than 50 buck amps that ended up selling for small profits.
> What’s the Point?
> The point is all of you mofo’s are snobs lol. j/k.
> My point is have fun in your means, you only go through this thing once and can’t take it with you. I would love to throw a ton if money at this and get the latest and greatest stuff. Thing is if I am not happy now with what I have, the shiny neew stuff isnt going to make me happy. I would rather want what i have, than have what i want.


I'm interested in hearing the review of your i1000.4.


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

Say what? I am a firm believer that you should focus on quality speakers first. Then Headunit/ DSP/ TA - source materal - and then worry about if a better amp is warranted. As for sound deadening... I wouldn't rate that as my #1. But like anything, there will be always be deminished returns the higher you go for that last 10%.

For example: Esotar 2-way/ Sony gsx-9 TA-DSP/ Native SACD rips via Dop/ SInfoni Ingot/ full sound deadening everywhere.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> ...
> The other thought was getting another 1000.6 and bridging 12 channels to 6 and all speakers get 350W. With your calculaions, that might be quite the overkill. Yes?
> ...


Well the idea of RMS reading was to know ahead of time how much overkill it is.
I think possible Skizer mentioned most people do not need more than 10W for a tweeter, which is another reason I mentioned the class-A jobs 
And whatever it needs the MR needs 2-3x more wattage, and the MB ~6x more wattage.




SLicK55 AMG said:


> ...
> I'll let you know what I hear back. In the meantime I'll continue to search for system testing songs and jam. I need to play the song Brian played on his video- The Last Rainforest. It's Electric Dance Music...Supposed to be a great system tester.


I think that could be more of a typical wall of sound type of music.
If so then it the crest factor is relatively low (~13-15). And if the SPL is <100 dB(A) then there is a limit to what the tweeters need and the MR needs about twice the wattage.

Something like classical, Diana Krall, or anything with a lot of air, will typically have crest factor higher (sometime up to ~20)
I would not dissuade you you from using electro, but would encourage you to something airy as it is typically louder during the attacks.

But I would suggest also getting more inputs from others.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Holmz said:


> Well the idea of RMS reading was to know ahead of time how much overkill it is.
> I think possible Skizer mentioned most people do not need more than 10W for a tweeter, which is another reason I mentioned the class-A jobs
> And whatever it needs the MR needs 2-3x more wattage, and the MB ~6x more wattage.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the last rainforest is a wall of sound. All different frequency sounds. I don't ever listen to EDM. I'll just try it once.

I've read about Diana Krall's recordings being excellent. Could you recommend one or two specific songs? Or are they all in the same camp.

A long time ago I bought Classic Records Remastered Holly Cole "Temptation" on vinyl because of the very positive reviews on sonics but never got around to playing it. I'll take a listen on TIDAL.

I really like the idea of the separate amp for the tweeters vs splitting up the midbass amps. I know the shop owner would like to keep it in the ARC family, and I would too. But I wonder if there is an amp best designed for tweeters or is that a ridiculous thought. ARC does make a Class AB amp with a class G/H power supply. The CXLR 2100 Anniversary Edition. 200Wx2. 98db S/N. Amplifier efficiency 85+%...$659....I don't know if it makes any difference that the 1000.6/DSP I'm now running is a class D amp......


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

The power people in car audio throw at there drivers and amplifiers doesn't make any sense coming from home audio. It's like they don't know they only use 10% of the power. Even when accounting for overhead and dynamic range.


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Yeah, the last rainforest is a wall of sound. All different frequency sounds. I don't ever listen to EDM. I'll just try it once.
> 
> I've read about Diana Krall's recordings being excellent. Could you recommend one or two specific songs? Or are they all in the same camp.
> 
> ...


G/H power supply sounds terrible.


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## Petererc (Dec 28, 2016)

Gump_Runner said:


> I'm interested in hearing the review of your i1000.4.


The i1000.4 replaced a Sony XM-2150gsx on the midbass and an XM-10020 on mids. I know the 2150 is under rated and would imagine the 10020 is as well. I also have another 2150 bridged on the Dayton HO sub and an XM-4020 on the tweeters. This and the dsp is all stuffed behind, under, and on back of the rear seats in a Tacoma DC. So the real estate that i gained was definitely a plus. The volt meter on the 80prs while driving now stays up around 13.5 instead of dipping to 13.2 still fluctuates but noticeably higher so the PPI is more efficient. 
When setting gains after installing amp one of the midbass drivers gave out. Replaced that driver and gave a listen and had no complaints. I picked my son up from his gf later that evening and he said it sounds good, no noticeable difference. He is the one with golden ears and is my go to guy.
With the covid crap and being on quarantine i didnt listen too much. I did take a suggestion and cross the sub and midbass higher relieving stress on the old Dyns. So its a whole new tune. 
I have been back to work this week and cranking some tunes. I like the amp, there’s no turn on/off pop or any noise at all plus it’s smaller, more efficient. I need to spend some more time tuning. I seem to have lost some dynamics and a rim shot doesn’t have great attack. It’s probably or definitely the tune. Overall sound quality is great, I hear no harshness in the upper mid range which some say class D has. I am trying to be open minded and give the amp a fair shake. I have nothing to stand on to say it sounds better or worse than other amps. Thanks for the recommendation. 
Temperature has been in the 90’s and not too motivated. Maybe you can answer this one. I want to try the i1000.4 bridged on sub and other channels on midbass to see how it does on sub duty any expeience?

thanks


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

K-pop sucks said:


> G/H power supply sounds terrible.


Really? From my understanding, G&H designs are a hybrid of class D and class A/B combining the best of both into one amp. Seems hard for me to believe a company like ARC would put out a terribly sounding amp.. Especially one named "Anniversary Edition". But I have not read any reviews.
This from the company:


https://www.arcaudio.com/sites/default/files/2018-04/CXLR%20Amplifiers%20web_0.pdf


On edit: Found an older review for the 4 channel CXLR. Price has come down.


http://content.arcaudio.com/pdfs/reviews/product-reviews/4150cxl_review.pdf


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

No point in trying to keep this thread on track...

@SLicK55 AMG why in the world are you looking to "upgrade" your system with additional amplification right now? You literally just got it done and seem to be pleased with the results. Don't let a case of "upgraditis" get you off track. 

Just because other people are running stupid levels of power to their midbasses doesn't mean you are automatically missing out. Take a breath and give your current system an honest objective assessment.

Is there really anything about your system you feel is lacking right now?

Is it falling short in sound quality (tonality, staging, dynamics, etc.)?

Does the system get loud enough for you?

Those are the questions you need to answer yourself before you start asking around here which amp you need to buy.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

K-pop sucks said:


> G/H power supply sounds terrible.


False.


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Really? From my understanding, G&H designs are a hybrid of class D and class A/B combining the best of both into one amp. Seems hard for me to believe a company like ARC would put out a terribly sounding amp.. Especially one named "Anniversary Edition". But I have not read any reviews.
> This from the company:
> 
> 
> ...


I believe that Genesis made class G amps in their Profile series and they were exceptional units. Small and compact like your typical class D footprint as well. Zed has messed around with this technology as well it I remember correctly.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

rton20s said:


> No point in trying to keep this thread on track...
> 
> @SLicK55 AMG why in the world are you looking to "upgrade" your system with additional amplification right now? You literally just got it done and seem to be pleased with the results. Don't let a case of "upgraditis" get you off track.
> 
> ...


Of course you are right. And the ARC shop owner is likely thinking the same thing....This is my M.O..

I'm very satisfied with the system.... All your qualifiers above are great. Maybe an experienced system analyst could detect a weakness but I can't.. And yes, it's loud enough.. ....While I've had a couple of 3 hour jam sessions in the garage and occasional driving around, the speakers haven't completely broken in yet either.
Once they do, I'm due to go back to the shop for the owner to do a re-tuning in early May....

I'm not going to make any changes now. It's just a thought for down the road. Thanks!

Sorry for losing track of this thread. I appreciate all the input but let's get back to the OP's subject.


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Of course you are right. And the ARC shop owner is likely thinking the same thing....This is my M.O..
> 
> I'm very satisfied with the system.... All your qualifiers above are great. Maybe an experienced system analyst could detect a weakness but I can't.. And yes, it's loud enough.. ....While I've had a couple of 3 hour jam sessions in the garage and occasional driving around, the speakers haven't completely broken in yet either.
> Once they do, I'm due to go back to the shop for the owner to do a re-tuning in early May....
> ...


It's a deep and dark rabbit hole...proceed with caution


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Bchester6 said:


> It's a deep and dark rabbit hole...proceed with caution


Funny.... I'm learning that quick. The change I'm contemplating is around a 15% addition to original investment so I'm not on the crazy train yet.


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## BadSS (Feb 2, 2008)

Back when I was doing research on going active with my car, I couldn’t find much if any information. I was able to find a few detailed articles on Bi-Amping home speakers. While, not exactly “active”, it seems some were/are getting away with running as little as 30% of the power sent to the mid-bass speaker to the tweeters for a balanced sound (100w to mid-bass and 30w on tweeter).

While I installed numerous systems for myself, family, friends, and friends of friends over the past 40 years, I only have experience going active with my own car system. I know there are more experienced people that can probably explain the issue I ran across – if there really was one. Here’s what I experienced. I started out with 125 watts on the mid-bass (90.5dB sensitivity) and 60 watts on the tweeters (91dB sensitivity) – same brand and series amp (same input impedance). That’s 48% power to the tweeters, which is more than the 30% these home systems are getting away with, so I thought I would be fine. I could get it to sound great at my typical listening level but the balance between the two wouldn’t sound right at higher volume or lower volume to a lesser degree. I stepped up to 75 watts on the tweeters and it held the “balance” at all listening levels. When I later bumped up to 200 watts on the mid-bass, I bumped up to 125 watts on the tweeters and it stayed balanced – both were sending about 60% of the mid-bass power to the tweeters.

I’ve had people tell me that the gains weren’t right on the 60/125 combo but I tweaked the gains on the amps for hours on end. Only took me 10 to 15 minutes on the 75/125 combo to get the “balance” right and about the same amount of time on the 125/200 combo.

With this being basically just one example and considering my experience level with active systems, there’s no way I could make a definitive statement. However, for my particular set up it appears I needed 60% of the power going to the mid-bass to the tweeters. I guess there could be something off on the 60 watt amp, but I’m leaning more towards gain compression differences – even though they were the same brand and series, just different models and power. Anyway, thought I would share FYI.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Petererc said:


> The i1000.4 replaced a Sony XM-2150gsx on the midbass and an XM-10020 on mids. I know the 2150 is under rated and would imagine the 10020 is as well. I also have another 2150 bridged on the Dayton HO sub and an XM-4020 on the tweeters. This and the dsp is all stuffed behind, under, and on back of the rear seats in a Tacoma DC. So the real estate that i gained was definitely a plus. The volt meter on the 80prs while driving now stays up around 13.5 instead of dipping to 13.2 still fluctuates but noticeably higher so the PPI is more efficient.
> When setting gains after installing amp one of the midbass drivers gave out. Replaced that driver and gave a listen and had no complaints. I picked my son up from his gf later that evening and he said it sounds good, no noticeable difference. He is the one with golden ears and is my go to guy.
> With the covid crap and being on quarantine i didnt listen too much. I did take a suggestion and cross the sub and midbass higher relieving stress on the old Dyns. So its a whole new tune.
> I have been back to work this week and cranking some tunes. I like the amp, there’s no turn on/off pop or any noise at all plus it’s smaller, more efficient. I need to spend some more time tuning. I seem to have lost some dynamics and a rim shot doesn’t have great attack. It’s probably or definitely the tune. Overall sound quality is great, I hear no harshness in the upper mid range which some say class D has. I am trying to be open minded and give the amp a fair shake. I have nothing to stand on to say it sounds better or worse than other amps. Thanks for the recommendation.
> ...


Awesome!


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## Otterman (Aug 30, 2015)

Madmatt said:


> I dont know all the high end crazy expensive brands and think alot of the stuff is all hype.the biggest improvement ive ever had in a car stereo is addition of an audio control preamp high low pass crossover signal booster.it made my already good stereo fantastic.i had compoment mb quarts rear deck component soundstream reference in front doors and a pillar tweeters with passive crossovers from a different mb quart set for the front speakers ran alpine v12 amps front and rear one channel for each speaker crossovers allowed for bi amping or whatever its called.each speaker got its own channel the amps.were like 75x4 or close so.each tweeter got 75 each each mid 75 x8.had one diamond 12 sub dual voice coil ported box and kenwood.4v output deck sounded really good then i hooked up the little.audio control 2xs i cant remember model but it made every song so much better.so.much headroom crisp sound no distortion at crazy sound levels i had really.good sound deadening also and car had multiple extra grounds off battery and used monster cable or equivalent with 0 guage or 2 guage power and 12 to speakers.i listened to a few stereo installers personnal cars with focal and whatever and they sounded good but mine killed theres and i payed maybe 1000 or less most of my stuff i got as demo models or traded for or bought used.i still havent heard better sound quality.although i just got an audi and the damn stock stereo sounds pretty good for what it is im trying to figure out if i want to attempt to upgrade it without mangling the nice intrerior.this is my first post ever on one of these sites so i dont know whats proper protocol or whatever.i kinda rant a bit but im stuck at home trying to avoid the cov id and thought this could be a good way to be social while.isolating or whatever.


AWESOME FIRST POST! Welcome to the forum! The good 'ole days of car audio, when a good head unit, decent amp and a set of MB Quart speakers outperformed even the best OEM systems. Had a Mustang GT with the "Mach 460" system....ugggghhhh. Also have to agree that adding any Audiocontrol pre-amp made a very noticeable improvement. I used a 2-channel EQL in my systems for years because of that fact. Frankly still not sure why it always made such a difference, though I suspect it was from improved gain structure and the 8V outputs. 
Actually started my '16 Golf R system with a NOS set of MB Quart reference coaxials and an Audiocontrol amp, and then....well....it got quite a bit more involved! I'm sure that Audi will make a great platform for a system upgrade. Tear into that thing and come join us...


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Yeah, the last rainforest is a wall of sound. All different frequency sounds. I don't ever listen to EDM. I'll just try it once.
> 
> I've read about Diana Krall's recordings being excellent. Could you recommend one or two specific songs? Or are they all in the same camp.
> 
> ...


My friend listens to Diana Krall... I usually like something like the following:
Violent Femmes: "outside the palace"
Immortal technique: "Mistakes"
Arne Domnerus: "Jazz at the Pawn Shop"
Radiant Toneff: "Fairytale"
Wagner: "Götterdämmerung"
Beastie Boys: "Flute Loop", or Jeremy Steig: "Howlin for Judy"
Pink floyd: "Pigs"
Butthole Surfers: "Dracula from Houston"

The majority of those have a lot of air...
So if you don't listen to that sort of music, then pick whatever.

As far as amps the fellow in California was selling some class-A a while back... luckily they sold before I was committed.

I don't know... I would be trying to see what headroom you have and make a descison based upon facts... but from an emotional and physiological acoustics perspective, they have to be great


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Holmz said:


> My friend listens to Diana Krall... I usually like something like the following:
> Violent Femmes: "outside the palace"
> Immortal technique: "Mistakes"
> Arne Domnerus: "Jazz at the Pawn Shop"
> ...


The only thing I know about Diana Krall is that she's married to Elvis Costello....I'll try your list out tomorrow. Pink Floyd Animals is one of my favorites so I've played Pigs a lot already! If you like Tom Petty, You Don't Know How it Feels sounds really good.
My only experience with Wagner is Flight of the Valkyries so I look forward to your pick. 
Got some Zappa on my list too. Underrated guitar. 

I don't know how to evaluate headroom except to say I'm able to turn my Sony up all the way to the max 50 on certain songs and the tweeters sound great. It gets loud but not ear splitting loud...I think the shop owner knows and sets the proper gain level so I could max out on the volume and not clip. When he was playing the system for the first time for me, he put on Hotel California live and turned it up to like 47 and it was awesome..You could "see" where each performer was on the stage... I was reading a post from gijoe and he wrote " I completely disagree with the view that even though doubling power only gives 3dB more output, adding power still increases sound quality. It doesn't. More power means more SPL, that is all. A more powerful amp does not sculpt the signal any differently than a lower powered one. It's simply amplitude that's increasing. 
One argument is that lower frequencies require more power for the same SPL, so a more powerful amp will be able to do 25hz better than a lower powered amp, but again, doubling power still only gets you 3dB more at most. So if you're running out of power at 25hz, doubling it isn't going to help a whole lot." 

Sounds like maybe I was "runnin' down a dream that'll never come to me" in that doubling the watts to my midbasses wouldn't do anything more than increase SPL. That's not necessary as my mids already get 175W. It's all good man.

For discussion sake, perhaps a class A or AB amp exposes more of the recording accurately to the tweeters? More separation? 

Thanks for the list.....


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

My friend with the SOTA turntable, Roland amps, and Magnaplaners turned me into the Radka Toneff's "Faireytales"
And also Arne's "Jazz at the Pawn shop".
Both of those are in the top N of best recordings ever made.
(I also acquired his old tube amps, when he upgraded.)

The Sheffield Labs pressing of Götterdämmerung , is actually the song "Siegfrieds funeral music". Götterdämmerung is the end of the Gods, and I believe that Ragnorok is the equivalent of the apocalypse , and the parallels between Norse religion and Christianity are pretty thick, which is also why listening and liking Wagner attracts the ire of leftists.
Anyhow...
The part between 1:20 and 1:40 totally shows if there is a noise problem at the beginning, and then can stress low frequency content towards the middle.
And the "Ride of the Valkyries" s in the same CD/LP.

The Mrs once said (when listening the Sheffield Labs recording) is, "the only thing wrong that is that your stereo makes it sound like it is coming from outside of the house on the porch, and not from inside of the room."
I said, "I guess it makes it hard to connect with it, when the music sounds is so distant?"






That "Animals" album is good... the music is good, and more importantly... the recordiñg quality is also outstanding.

But there is also a good argument to be made for playing what you know, and what you listen to...
Hence my go to list is 100% correct for exactly myself, and those percentages drop off quickly for people that like death metal, or similar things that I am not drawn to.

I also like when it is quiet and then... wham! ... a loud section comes along, just about lets yesterday's curry burst out to people not expecting it.
Also acoustic music in general can sound pretty ordinary on some systems... I am not sure why... but on a good system, it sparkles and sounds real.
... That Tom Petty song fits in there.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Yeah, the last rainforest is a wall of sound. All different frequency sounds. I don't ever listen to EDM. I'll just try it once.
> 
> I've read about Diana Krall's recordings being excellent. Could you recommend one or two specific songs? Or are they all in the same camp.
> 
> ...


Hey SLicK55, i love Diana Krall, I think I have all her albums, and have been lucky enough to see her live a few times when she comes to Oz including 3 rows back left centre stage right adjacent her and her piano once. It was sublime. Her band is amazing.

Diana Krall live in Paris is the album you need. AND "The girl in the other room". It is an unbelievably good record of songs she wrote with her husband Elvis Costello also with some more contemporary covers. It is a serious departure from her other records and I think it is far and away the best studio album she has released. It is one of my favourite albums.

Then if you buy 2 or 3 of her other records you'll have all the standards and Bossanova you need. To me the rest of her albums end up all sounding a bit the same. They are lovely, but they rarely get played. 

Oh and I hate Xmas albums. I'm a card carrying Atheist and I worked retail part time through the end of high school and a bunch of years while at Uni. I HATE xmas carols. But her Xmas album is wonderful. I willingly put it on.

Oh and get a copy of KD Lang's "live by request". It is breathtakingly good. The closing track "Simple". "Pullin back the reins". Don't smoke in bed, three cigarettes in an ashtray. Wash me clean. Crying. I could but won't go on.

Sadly It doesn't have Cohen's Hallelujah on it which is probably now her signature track and in my opinion, the only person that does it better than Jeff Buckley's version on Grace. But you can get KD doing hallelujah here Sony Music Entertainment proudly announce ARTISTS UNITE FOR FIRE FIGHT: Concert for National Bushfire Relief - Sony Music Australia

So I flew to Sydney in February for the fire fight fundraising concert in the 2000 Olympics stadium. it got announced on a Wednesday I think, tickets went on sale midday Friday? and they sold 70,000 tickets out in 6 hours. About two weeks later it was on. Caught a ferry from Circular Quay out past the Sydney Opera House and under the Harbour Bridge to Homebush. It's such a beautiful hour long trip up the harbour. Hadn't ever been in the stadium, it is remarkable. 70,000 people. Queen and KD Lang got me there, but although it was a little vanilla, it was a talent packed line up including many top Australian artists you've probably never heard of.

The fires here this summer were catastrophic and on a scale never seen before. We've had deadlier bushfire seasons but never so much of Australia burning at once. People in the cities with respiratory disease were dropping dead from the poor air quality from smoke from fires hundreds of km away.

Anyway, I've seen KD lang about 6 times now and I've flown from Adelaide (which is in the middle of Australia at the bottom) To the far west coast at Margaret River (2,750 km), and to Melbourne (750 km) and Sydney (1,400km) to see her, plus 3 or 4 times in Adelaide. Once I went to the first night of a sold out Adelaide concert, the second show the next night still had tickets left and you could get them half price if you were at the first night. So I went two nights straight. I'm a bit of a groupie. Only gig I've ever seen knickers thrown on stage was a kd Lang gig too 

So in Feb Queen had played a sold out show the Saturday night and apparently a few weeks earlier Brian May got onto a big Australian promoter Ted Dainty and said lets do a fundraising concert on the Sunday.

It was later in the evening. Some of the acts before KD included Ronan Keating, Alice Cooper, Queen, who for the first time since 1985 played the legendary set from live aid at Wembley which I remember I was 17 and watched TV for about 16 hours straight that day. And seeing them do it again live was completely ****ing awesome and just a true piece of legendary musical history and I got to see it from 10m back! The crowd went absolutely off. Then Michael Buble, and then a great Australian hip hop act called the Hilltop Hoods.

Then kd Lang came out and I thought there was no way the crowd would be particularly interested. Not after the high energy acts before. I just didn't think it would be the crowd's genre. It was an amazing crowd, I talked to a bunch of people and it was really family friendly and so diverse.

KD lang started with "The Valley" by Jane Siberry off Hymns of the 49th Paralell. It's an album of her favourite songs by Canadian songwriters. Certainly there wouldn't have been many there who knew the song. Then she sang Hallelujah.

So she came out onto the stage with a pianist and a grand piano and didn't say a thing. She sang The Valley. and the crowd was quiet. The kids, the metal heads, the tradies, the north shore rich bitches, the happy clappy crowd from sydney's big evangelical churches, Sydney gay community, the bogans (Australian for ********) Volunteer emergency volunteers and firefighters from all over country Australia who all got free tickets. all 70,000 people were quiet. Everyone was quiet. I'm used to people talking through gigs a lot it really pisses me off. But they were quiet and I looked around and they were captivated.

Then she sang Hallelujah. And the crowd wasn't just quiet they were silent. It is the best performance I've ever seen her do. And she is *always* unbelievable live. People had these smiles on their faces listening to her sing, and she completely smashed it. then she acknowledged the crowd with a bow with her hands in a prayer position and a wave I think and walked off with her pianist.

So anyway, if you want a track that will sound good on your system download that. It is sublime. And it's actually one of the best recorded and mixed lived CDs I have.

Oh and did I mention most of the gig we leant on the fence at the front of the sound desk about 40m back. But for Queen I got about 10m away from the stage. I get excited at gigs. Like really excited. but I rarely go all fangirl. But Queen are true rock and roll royalty, one of the best bands of all time. Even without Freddie and i'd never seen them. Never thought I would go without Freddie. The live aid set, 70,000 people, 10m away. Amazing. At the end of the set you could see Adam Lambert and Brian May looking around taking it all in. The looks on their faces, it was like they were saying "this is ****ing unbelievable" to each other. Then they did the fist bump 

I got back to the hotel 1 in the morning walking down oxford street 5km from the centre of Sydney and there were kookaburras laughing in the trees and fruit bats fighting over perches in the Moreton Bay Fig trees. It was a hell of a day. I jumped on gumtree, a sell your stuff website, and picked up two good seats to see the Adelaide show at Adelaide oval which the Brits on here would know. Saw them two weeks later. they played for over two hours I reckon, best stadium gig I've seen. Better than guns and roses a few years earlier. Although dire straits and elton john, two gigs I saw in the summer of 86 just before I started Uni might have been as good but that's just a faded memory now.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

gijoe said:


> I'll be the first one to say that expensive amps are a waste of money if you are buying them to improve sound quality. If you are buying them because they look sweet, are built like tanks, and have a great reputation, then spend what you want. But the boutique amps aren't something I can justify on my income, because they don't improve anything. I will confidently put my Kenwood XR up against Zapco, Sinfoni, MMats, etc. because a good amp is simply increasing the intensity of the signal, we've figured out how to do that with incredible accuracy decades ago.
> 
> Speakers are a bit different. Speakers are very important to the final sound. Speakers and processing are the 2 biggest factors (you can make a case for install, but the balance between the install and amount/type of processing needed is what gets you there) in how good things will ultimately sound. That does not mean the speakers need to be expensive, a known brand, or unigue in any way. They just have be be used appropriately for the task you are expecting them to perform. Very good speakers will sound very bad when used outside of their indended job.
> 
> ...


hi GI Joe, I don't agree. I think typically people don't spend enough money on their sources and amps and too much on their speakers to get the best performing system for their money.

On my desk I have dynaudio image 1, two way bookshelf speakers I got in 1990 suggested 20 to 60 watt amp. Marantz CD80 and had a lovely marantz PM30SE no tone controls, streamlined signal path amp 30/40WPC? rms into 8 ohms. Lovely, especially with simpler acoustic music. I upgraded to a Marantz PM80, 100wpc class AB switchable to 20wpc class A. Sounded like a completely different speaker in either class A or class AB. Massive improvement in every way but in bass so much better.

Mate owned a pair of Dali Suite 3.5s, about a AU$6K speaker recommended 20-200 watts Amp. 91.5db efficiency 4 ohms. Absolutely beautiful big 25kg speaker, finished like the best bit of furniture in my house. https://www.dali-speakers.com/media/3396/suite-series.pdf . He was running them with a Marantz CD 60 as a transport toslnk into a Marantz PM75 with inbuilt DACs about 80wpc. Sounded great. He moved into an apartment and sold them to me. I ran them with a Marantz CD80 and PM80. Even better.

Then I bought a musical fidelity nuvista preamp Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista Preamp Reviewed and a Rotel RB1080 200wpc power Amp with the Marantz CD80. Three of us sitting on one lounge, so familiar with hundreds of hours listening to the Dalis. And my 2 mates both musos. We turned it on. Jack turned to me. He said “That is ****ing unbelievable. I have NEVER heard these speakers sound anywhere as good as that”. They are -3db at 33Hz. They were never -3db at 33Hz with the Marantz amps. And these were top end hi power Marantz integrated amps. Both about AU$2k. The pre/power combination dragged so much better performance out of these speakers it was amazing. There’s no doubt the nuvista is an astonishingly good preamp. But I think the Rotel grabbed the speakers by the balls and really made them sing. And gave them real bass extension. The Rotel made bach's toccata and fugue sound a lot more like there was a concert pipe organ in the room than the integrated amps.

Everything was better, musicality, soundstage, dynamics, bass, midrange and treble.

I upgraded the Marantz CD80 with a Philips TDA1541A S2 double crown d/a converter, low jitter digital clock from Burson, Replaced the IC’s in the output stage with Burson solid state opamps, and a bunch of new caps. Noticeable improvement in musicality and soundstaging, just more real. But nothing like the difference that the Rotel amp made.

Replaced the CD80 with a Cambridge Audio 840c cd player. Cambridge Audio Azur 840C CD Player Review fully balanced layout, twin Analog Devices AD1955 24 bit DACs, true balanced XLR outs, use of DSP processing to up-convert the signal to 24bit/384kHz. Not more musical than the Marantz but definitely more detail without being clinical and much better soundstaging. Especially with complex and dynamic music.

I now have a new Burson Conductor 3x preamp/headphone amp/dac. Noticeable improvement as a DAC over my Musical fidelity 840c cd player and as a preamp over my nuvista preamp, using the MF as transport. More detail, more musical, holographic soundstaging. But still not the dramatic difference that the Rotel amp change from 10 years earlier.

So anyway I sold Home hifi in a hi end store while I was at Uni. Time and again selling hi end audio pairing big high quality amps with almost any speaker makes them sound amazingly better. More headroom? Better dynamic response and transients? better bass control, extension and impact? All of those things I think. It just sounds more live. Definitely. Sounds more like being at a gig. More emotional connection. And that’s what it is all about for me. I want it to feel like I’m at a gig or in the recording studio. And big amps give me that. You can take cheap speakers and play them on a half decent source with an AU$6k Amcron 200wpc rack mount pro amp, or the divine the AU$10k nakamichi pre power we had, or the AU$2,000 200wpc Rotel Rb1080 amp we had and make any speaker sound awesomely better.

It's cheating really so it’s not fair to do it in the showroom and send the customer home with the new speakers to put on their 50wpc integrated amp.

And conversely there were so many really big expensive speakers that just sounded ordinary with smaller amps. Amp power makes a massive difference in my opinion. And ive also done plenty of switching preamps around in store doing blind AB comparisons. The preamps make a difference too, so it’s not just all about power. That tells me it’s about quality too. But that’s not as dramatic a difference as power.

Oh and I don't have a "golden ear". We always messed around doing blind AB comparisons when the shop was quiet. I'm a serious skeptic when it comes to a lot of the crap the audio industry puts out there. And a lot of reviewers are just getting paid to jerk off over nice new equipment. When double blind randomized trials don't show a difference then there is no difference no matter what the golden ear brigade say. But I do suspect that you can get two bits of equipment that measure the same on electronic specs that actually do sound different to the human ear. But I could be wrong about that and the only way to test it is to get some good statisticians to design proper double blind randomised trials together with some electronics experts who are good with measuring equipment and I haven't ever seen trials like that done.

And there's no doubt that lots of the differences people think they hear between different hifi setups are probably placebo. And I'm not immune to that any more than the next person.

I think beyond a modest level of quality construction the performance of cables are so similar you shouldn't waste big bucks on them and the claims that cable makers make are mostly ********. I just got AU$300 worth of Mogami gold studio balanced XLRs which are professional microphone cables with good shielding and connectors and they might be a little bit better than the el cheapo ones I rushed out and bought for $40 bucks for my home system when my new balanced Burson conductor 3x preamp arrived and I wanted to get it up and running. But it could be my imagination. But if i'd gone to an audiophile store or website they would have tried to sell me something of possibly equal and possibly inferior construction for $1500 bucks and that's half the ****ing price of the preamp! Not good value.

I think that more amp power is just as important in car audio too. And with headphones as well. But i'll post on that later. It's half an hour before midnight here and in the morning I'm picking up my car and it now has window tinting, an alarm, and a Helix Ultra DSP! I'll get to spend the morning watching the installer tune it so hopefully I'll learn something  I'm so excited I might not be able to sleep


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Sam Spade said:


> I love Diana Krall, I think I have all her albums, and have been lucky enough to see her live a few times when she comes to Oz including 3 rows back left centre stage right adjacent her and her piano once. It was sublime. Her band is amazing.
> 
> Diana Krall live in Paris is the album you need. AND "The girl in the other room". It is an unbelievably good record of songs she wrote with her husband Elvis Costello also with some more contemporary covers. It is a serious departure from her other records and I think it is far and away the best studio album she has released. It is one of my favourite albums.
> 
> ...


Good stuff. Sent you a PM.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> I love Diana Krall, ...]


I read the post out to the Mrs, and she said ok let's get those albums.

And I could imagine walking down the road hearing kookaburras, you writing style is enjoyable.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Holmz said:


> I read the post out to the Mrs, and she said ok let's get those albums.
> 
> And I could imagine walking down the road hearing kookaburras, you writing style is enjoyable.


I didn't read your post above Sam's until now. I'm gonna play your choices later.....At home I've got 2 Rowland mono Model 12's powering JMlab/Focal Mezzo Utopia's with a Sub Utopia. Just a Basis 2000 T.T.. But Animals just sounds fantastic. You're not supposed to but I could repeat play that album over and over. When you get a new system, I agree, play what you know and you can be the most critical with those songs.

I listened to the first half of Sam's list. Diana Krall's voice is sultry good but her guitarist is excellent. Reminded me of the guitarist that Diana Ross stole from Gordy Berry...And I DID prefer the Girl in the Other Room....KD Lang's Hallelujah was also VERY good. I prefer her voice to Krall's. I need to play The Valley...But after all that vocal stuff, I had to put on Brubeck's Take Five. That is a stellar recording. And The Last Rainforest was a lot of fun. It''s EDM but it's enjoyable and tests your system...Violent Femmes Outside the Palace was good but made me think of Chris Isaak's Wicked Game which I've always loved and had to play.

Then I played BTO Blue Collar which is great. Bachman was such an underated guitar player. Jazz influenced for sure.

I've mentioned this a few times in this forum but if you want to test your sub and mid bass, get a load of this and turn it up:


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

SLiCK,

San also mentioned the "Hilltop Hoods", sort of like Australian Beatie Boys...
My Daughter said it took her abou an hour of wiki to work out the cultural references of this one:





And my absolute favourite HTH song.... which they did on this album. They also did this live in Adelaide with the Adelaide philharmonic orchestra, which seems somewhat unusual for rap/HipHop to be done with an orchestra playing the backup:





They may not be the best recordings, but I can loop it all day long.

I'll get the Bach and use it Tom test out the new house sub boxes... but I'll need a sub amp, and some DSP.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> The only thing I know about Diana Krall is that she's married to Elvis Costello....I


I saw Elvis Costello in concert a few years ago at a small venue in Northern VT. Diana Krall and Myra Flynn were hanging out just in front of us with the kids. It was pretty cool.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

miniSQ said:


> I saw Elvis Costello in concert a few years ago at a small venue in Northern VT. Diana Krall and Myra Flynn were hanging out just in front of us with the kids. It was pretty cool.


Hi minisq, elvis costello is a genius. He's on my bucket list 😄


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

miniSQ said:


> I saw Elvis Costello in concert a few years ago at a small venue in Northern VT. Diana Krall and Myra Flynn were hanging out just in front of us with the kids. It was pretty cool.


I forgot, Grace Potter was hanging out with them too. LOL...but non of them got on stage.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Sam Spade said:


> Hi minisq, elvis costello is a genius. He's on my bucket list 😄


I have been listening to him for 35 years....but only saw him twice live, once 30 years ago and then again 3 years ago. Get to a show it was amazing.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Sam Spade said:


> Hi minisq, elvis costello is a genius. He's on my bucket list 😄


I adore Veronica.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Holmz said:


> SLiCK,
> 
> San also mentioned the "Hilltop Hoods", sort of like Australian Beatie Boys...
> My Daughter said it took her abou an hour of wiki to work out the cultural references of this one:
> ...


It's good. But I thought of Eminem. But I can hear Beastie Boys ecclectic music .

Everybody, please play Blue Collar by BTO if you haven't heard it yet. Some of the best jazz geetar you'll ever hear.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Well this thread got huge quick. Must be controversial like class AB vs Class D amps. Truth is people let their emotions get in the way of rational decisions when putting together a system so a lot of mistakes are made along the way. I’ve had some extremely cheap budget systems that I made sound really good through good installation and tuning with a DSP so I know that can be done with careful planning. One doesn’t need to spend a lot relatively speaking but as SkizeR said you have to know what the limitations are for the equipment you’re installing and how to implement everything together. That is where the real difference comes from. Better equipment may or may not make it easier to get sonic bliss especially at higher sound pressure levels.

I agree somewhat that amplifiers make only a small difference and I’ve done my own blind bench testing to verify that and it’s not always the more expensive amplifier that sounds better. The drivers themselves though do make a very big difference but you don’t have to spend mega bucks to get the right sound. Those SB29 tweeters for example just so happen to be so good that they rival tweeters that cost 4 times as much and I know because I own them too. Those stereo integrity tm65 lll mids you have also are pretty decent budget midwoofers that perform well and I’ve heard these in other vehicles too. But that Zapco STX 6 channel SQ as you’ve learned is not that good and the 2 Channel version I tested was just par for the course relatively speaking. 

Now I gather that you are running a two way active (I think) and if so then going to a property put together 3-way active will be a big step up in Audio fidelity for sure. That move you cannot deny is a good one.

Conclusion, I don’t think the amount of money you spend on equipment is any guarantee that you’ll get great sound but in the hands of the right knowledgable person and enough money anyone can achieve great sound.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

JCsAudio said:


> Well this thread got huge quick. Must be controversial like class AB vs Class D amps. Truth is people let their emotions get in the way of rational decisions when putting together a system so a lot of mistakes are made along the way. I’ve had some extremely cheap budget systems that I made sound really good through good installation and tuning with a DSP so I know that can be done with careful planning. One doesn’t need to spend a lot relatively speaking but as SkizeR said you have to know what the limitations are for the equipment you’re installing and how to implement everything together. That is where the real difference comes from. Better equipment may or may not make it easier to get sonic bliss especially at higher sound pressure levels.
> 
> I agree somewhat that amplifiers make only a small difference and I’ve done my own blind bench testing to verify that and it’s not always the more expensive amplifier that sounds better. The drivers themselves though do make a very big difference but you don’t have to spend mega bucks to get the right sound. Those SB29 tweeters for example just so happen to be so good that they rival tweeters that cost 4 times as much and I know because I own them too. Those stereo integrity tm65 lll mids you have also are pretty decent budget midwoofers that perform well and I’ve heard these in other vehicles too. But that Zapco STX 6 channel SQ as you’ve learned is not that good and the 2 Channel version I tested was just par for the course relatively speaking.
> 
> ...


Good post. Makes me happy that I only spent $99 for my ARC 1.0 tweeters. I can say that I don't understand how Focal M tweeters are $1750 a pair. However, I do have JM Lab/Focal Beryllium tweeters at home in my Utopias so what's that say. Maybe a home system demands it more than a car?

I highly agree that planning (and the install) and tuning makes or breaks the system.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

JCsAudio said:


> ...
> Conclusion, I don’t think the amount of money you spend on equipment is any guarantee that you’ll get great sound but in the hands of the right knowledgable person and enough money anyone can achieve great sound.


However one cannot lord it over others if their system only sounds good?
If it doesn't have the magical HU, DSP, amps and speakers, then how would one feel good about ourselves being superior, if it just sounds good?




SLicK55 AMG said:


> It's good. But I thought of Eminem. But I can hear Beastie Boys ecclectic music .
> ...


Wait until you try "Stopping All Stations"


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Holmz said:


> SLiCK,
> 
> San also mentioned the "Hilltop Hoods", sort of like Australian Beatie Boys...
> My Daughter said it took her abou an hour of wiki to work out the cultural references of this one:
> ...


Holmz, kd lang is hands down the best singer Ive ever heard live. But i never saw Aretha sadly. Or Whitney. And i haven't seen Mariah Carey but her and Whitney's material isn't so much my style. I'm a tragic for female vocalists. But you'll find Muse, Radiohead, Queen Led Zep, stevie ray vaughan, Prince, lenny Kravitz, Deep Purple, dire straits, rammstein, jeff buckley, talking heads, Calexico, the tea party, public enemy,


Holmz said:


> I read the post out to the Mrs, and she said ok let's get those albums.
> 
> And I could imagine walking down the road hearing kookaburras, you writing style is enjoyable.


Thanks Holmz, that's very kind


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Sam Spade said:


> Holmz, kd lang is hands down the best singer Ive ever heard live. But i never saw Aretha sadly. Or Whitney. And i haven't seen Mariah Carey but her and Whitney's material isn't so much my style. I'm a tragic for female vocalists. But you'll find Muse, Radiohead, Queen Led Zep, stevie ray vaughan, Prince, lenny Kravitz, Deep Purple, dire straits, rammstein, jeff buckley, talking heads, Calexico, the tea party, public enemy,
> 
> Thanks Holmz, that's very kind


Annie Lennox sounds ok live too


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

best female vocalist i have heard live is stevie nicks and ann wilson


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

I was listening to Linda Ronstadt Live in Hollywood from 1980 singing Desperado today. And Carly Simon singing Nobody Does it Better and You're so Vain. And Tracy Chapman's debut album. Through my newly installed Helix Ultra. Then a bunch of tracks off Stevie Wonder's Songs in the Key of life. I swear I heard some things in some of the tracks on that album I've never heard before it sounded so good. And I've listed to that album countless times. And that was just a first up drivers seat tune via my Kenwood head unit as the Helix USB module and the USB/SPDIF converter haven't turned up yet. The Hertz mile legend 1650.3's run by the Hertz HP802 SPL and time alignment and basic DSP tune using the Kenwood deck sounded unbelievable before. The Helix Ultra has taken them to a whole new level. They are just so ****ing musical. And so is the Ultra. I get it that the DSP processing power of the Ultra is insane and that's important to get a flat frequency response and decent sound stage in a car. But no-one talks about how ****ing unbelievably musical it sounds as what it also basically functions as a combination DA converter and preamp. It makes music sound real. It makes it sound musical. Why didn't anyone tell me about this when I was asking questions about DSP's? I might have to start a thread asking that question.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Linda Rondstant's Blue Bayou is fantastic. I love her voice. Did you know that Glenn Frey and Don Henley started out in her band before they left for The Eagles? Frey lived with Jackson Brown early on...

Ann Wilson is amazing. Take a good listen to, and crank up, Dog and Butterfly in the ol' car system.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Good post. Makes me happy that I only spent $99 for my ARC 1.0 tweeters. I can say that I don't understand how Focal M tweeters are $1750 a pair. However, I do have JM Lab/Focal Beryllium tweeters at home in my Utopias so what's that say. Maybe a home system demands it more than a car?
> 
> I highly agree that planning (and the install) and tuning makes or breaks the system.


I thought you were running arc rs??


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

dcfis said:


> I thought you were running arc rs??


The mids and midbasses are RS. I was hoping to run the RS 1.0's but they were too big for my tiny OEM sails. Had to run the same 28 mm tweeter. The necessary sized custom sails would have been way too big and extended far off my flat door sills. I was bummed about it and am curious as to how much different the RS tweeters would sound. But the ARC 1.0's sound very good.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

That Cadillac is a bit over the top.

There is also some joy in putting stealthy install and using old amps, and getting chin scratchers wondering how it can sound good.
In fact I find it is better than just having the unaffordable gear.


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

Do y'all really think that the Helix ultra will make your system sound way better than a JL audio twk 88? I get it the ultra has all the bells and whistles but is it really that good to wear it can make some average mediocre speaker sound way better than with no DSP?


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## Rainstar (May 22, 2017)

****ty amp - good amp
****ty source - good source
****ty installer - good installer
****ty DSP - FILL IN THE BLANK?


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

Rainstar said:


> ****ty amp - good amp
> ****ty source - good source
> ****ty installer - good installer
> ****ty DSP - FILL IN THE BLANK?


No DSP?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Kountz said:


> Do y'all really think that the Helix ultra will make your system sound way better than a JL audio twk 88? I get it the ultra has all the bells and whistles but is it really that good to wear it can make some average mediocre speaker sound way better than with no DSP?


What makes mediocre speakers sound mediocre?


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

Holmz said:


> What makes mediocre speakers sound mediocre?


The listeners ears?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

K-pop sucks said:


> The listeners ears?


Between the ears is one answer...

They either would have distortion, non linearity, cone breakup, ampliditude distortion, or something else.
If one knows what those things are, then they should be able to determine if a DSP can fix any of them.

It is pretty standard practice that many buy good speakers, so that sorta infers that perhaps a DSP cannot cure some of those things.


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## Wiggler (Nov 19, 2015)

I typically stick to entry level or middle tier lineups of the mainstream brands that are MANUFACTURER refurbished, or sparingly used, and then try to work with what I have to make it sound good. I don't really think I need a DSP or anything like that.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Kountz said:


> Do y'all really think that the Helix ultra will make your system sound way better than a JL audio twk 88? I get it the ultra has all the bells and whistles but is it really that good to wear it can make some average mediocre speaker sound way better than with no DSP?


Absolutely yes. My system sounded great. Better than i ever thought car audio could. Picked it up yesterday with a helix ulrtra. Its a whole new level. I'll expand on this a bt later.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> Absolutely yes. My system sounded great. Better than i ever thought car audio could. Picked it up yesterday with a helix ulrtra. Its a whole new level. I'll expand on this a bt later.


So how did you use a DSP to fix crap speakers?


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## fatstrat (Jul 12, 2019)

Holmz said:


> So how did you use a DSP to fix crap speakers?


The million dollar question.


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## mattkim1337 (Jan 31, 2018)

DSPs don't fix crap speakers. I used to think that parametric EQ "fixed" speakers. They allow you to control how a speaker behaves in the restraints of a car interior (which is already detrimental to the response). It's more for room correction and overall tonal adjustment. Also, a single speaker is only a part of a well designed system. DSPs are used to optimize the speakers to work together in frequency response, timing, phase, and level so that you create a SYSTEM that performs as if the speakers disappear in the car. And yes, higher end DSPs like the Helix have more tools to allow a skilled tuner to achieve this result better than an entry level DSP which has limited, or no adjustment at all in some areas.

You don't need super expensive equipment for this. Price tag based equipment choice is ********. What's important is how much consideration was taken in terms of design, build quality, distortion, physical dimensions, durability, material choice, *intended application*, power handling, warranty, and customer service. Most of the higher end main stream brands (Focal, JL, Morel, Dynaudio, Audiofrog, Arc, etc). take many of those elements seriously vs expensive but still **** brands that slap on big price tags.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Holmz said:


> That Cadillac is a bit over the top.
> 
> There is also some joy in putting stealthy install and using old amps, and getting chin scratchers wondering how it can sound good.
> In fact I find it is better than just having the unaffordable gear.


I love a good bargain. 

Before 6 months ago, I hadn't bought any new home hifi since the 90's when I got staff discount at Blackwood Sound. I'd picked up my Dalisuite 3.5's 2nd hand from a mate. I'd bought everything else off EBAY including #276 of 500 Musical Fidelity Nuvista preamps in existence. The GFC was especially good to me, exchange rates were awesome and Australia's economy was thriving while the rest of the world was struggling. So I put together an unbelievable home hifi system upgrade for roughly $3000 that would cost me ten times that to replace new now. Just stereo, no home theatre or subs. And my Blackwood sound system sits on my home office desk. 

I had spent $750 on Astell and Kern AK70 personal digital audio player which is an unbelievable bit of kit. Mainly cos my mobile phone was getting too big to run with, but it gets so much use for other things now.

But I had no headphone socket downstairs and a pair of good but not great Yamaha 400 Pro closed headphones that i'd got for a steal on catch of the day mainly to not wake my wife when I was watching TV after she went to bed. Burson sent me a email about pre release package deal on the new fully balanced conductor 3x preamp/headamp/DAC with top end Bluetooth connectivity and a pair of Audeze LCD3 planar headphones for about 2/3 recommended retail. So I laid down my cash in October? got the gear just after Xmas. The Burson has noticably improved my home system and future proofed it, and in combination with the Audeze headphones i'd have to spend $50k to get a speaker based system that sounds as good I reckon. Maybe $100K. Headphones are the best bang for your buck when it comes to hifi. I have been spending up since then on Car hifi and addicted to audio had Astell and Kern's equal top personal digital player and I bought one of those. It is astonishing.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Kountz said:


> Do y'all really think that the Helix ultra will make your system sound way better than a JL audio twk 88? I get it the ultra has all the bells and whistles but is it really that good to wear it can make some average mediocre speaker sound way better than with no DSP?


Kountz, I have no idea how the Ultra compares to a JL audio twk 88. I didn't even know car DSP's existed 3 months ago  I at one point posted here I was going for a Alpine PXA 800 and lots of people got upset and thought I should get a Helix.  All I can tell you is that i.m sold on DSP's in general and The Ultra in particular. The ultra doesn't just have all the bells and whistles. It does the DSP stuff really well, flat response, sound stage etc. But it's so much more than that. It has an awesome digital stage + chips properly implemented with an awesome analogue output stage properly implemented.

Ignoring all the car DSP functionality, IF I bought a helix and cannibalised it and just used it as a DAC/preamp in my home stereo system I expect it would be as good as the best preamps I have heard.

I started a thread elsewhere on this Music sounding musical 

but in summary what I got from the Helix:

And the improvement, it's so much more than just better soundstaging and a flat frequency response. *It's so ****ing musical. So musically realistic. The bass is tighter, the tonal quality is better, the attack and decay, the purity of simple acoustic music and the detail and layering of complex pieces. It's so detailed without being clinical.

(From memory) No one here said anything about this to me when it came to DSP's. I thought I kept asking which DSPs sounded better but no-one described this*.*No one said something like "this is like a combined DAC/preamp in a home hifi system and you will get all the benefits of having truly superb and realistic musical reproduction if you buy the Ultra compared to other units".* And I'm oh so glad I spent the extra cos that last sentence is true.

With a friend we parked and ate lunch and listened. It was mind blowing. Linda Ronstadt Live in Hollywood from 1980 singing Desperado. Carly Simon singing Nobody Does it Better and You're so Vain. And Tracy Chapman's debut album. Then a bunch of tracks off Stevie Wonder's Songs in the Key of life. I swear I heard some things in some of the tracks on those albums I've never heard before it sounded so good. And I've listed to those album countless times. And that was just a first up drivers seat tune via my Kenwood head unit. I jumped in the passsenger seat so my friend could experience the drivers tune and while it wasn't as good, it was still so detailed and so musical.

I get it that the DSP processing power of the Ultra is insane and that a DSP is important to get a flat frequency response and decent sound stage in a car. But no-one talks about how ****ing unbelievably musical it sounds as what it also basically functions as a combination DA converter and preamp. It makes music sound real. It makes it sound musical. Why didn't anyone tell me about this when I was asking questions about DSP's?


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Holmz said:


> So how did you use a DSP to fix crap speakers?


I think my speakers were awesome to start with


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Holmz said:


> So how did you use a DSP to fix crap speakers?





fatstrat said:


> The million dollar question.


I don't know if you can fix crap speakers. But you can optimise an OEM system or lotsa lower end systems probably with this and it is all automated:




__





KICKER | Key 200.4 Smart Amplifier


KICKER produces high-performance car audio, vehicle specific solutions, marine audio, home and personal audio, and power sports products since 1973.




www.kicker.com




review here:








Kicker KEY180.4 Amplifier Review


Anyone who wants to give their modest aftermarket system or bland OEM system a real kick should look no farther than the KEY180.4 from Kicker. Without a doubt, it will offer a greater amount of sonic difference per dollar spent than almost anything else you could buy. Add in the compatibility...




www.pasmag.com




My installer has put a bunch of these in for AU$500-600 and he says they take an OEM system to a whole new level.

Alpine has also recently come out with this: PWD-X5 - Alpine Electronics of Australia
and for about AU$1200 installed it will also take an OEM system to a whole new level I think.

Review here https://www.planetworld.co.za/produ...l-sound-processor-dsp-with-powered-subwoofer/

My nephews are all leaving school and buying cars and I'm steering them to these types of solutions, rather than the new head unit and front speaker solutions I'd been installing all my life till now. They can pull them out and drop them into a new car. And they can still upgrade head units and speakers later as well.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

And actually, what I think often makes home and car systems sound crap is oh so often people buying expensive speakers and cheap sources and Amps. If they're lucky all that will do is the speakers will reveal how crap the rest of the system is. But in a worst case scenario it's distortion and clipping from an amp that has no chance of driving inefficient or poorly matched speakers. Especially if you have the bass turned up on the tone controls/EQ. or a tiny amp driving a sub.

(actually a **** install is probably just as big an issue)

But last time I walked into a car hifi shop we chose a pioneer head unit. Played some $250 speakers. I realised I was screwing my nose up. $400 speakers. same thing. both too bright **** midrange no musicality. Then the $800 speakers. I thought "I could live with these". Then the $1500 speakers. I suddenly realised that I had a massive smile on my face and felt such an emotional connection to the music. They were Hertz Mille Legend 1350.3s.

I parked the idea it was going to cost me a fortune or I was going to end up with something no better than OEM up to $400 buck speakers. Or a bit better with $800 speakers. That was not good value to me.

And $1500 (plus amp and headunit) was going to get me an awesome result but out of the range I was willing to spend.

A few months later I came across a car performance company in Sydney getting out of carhifi and liquidating its entire stocks and 50-65% off.

That suddenly seemed like good value and I could get a sound system in my car that compares with what I listen to at home. So got AU$6650 of Hertz gear for AU $3860. 58% of RRP.

BUT absolutely don't buy on brand. Don't assume hi price is good. Trust your ears.

Buying a $1000 bottle of chardonnay is not smart if you don't like chardonnay and prefer riesling or Sav Blanc. Or worse still you don't like whites at all. Buy a shiraz or Cabernet.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> I think my speakers were awesome to start with


^Bingo.^

One cannot lower harmonic distortion.
So I think we would be helping the Kountz more to suggest good speakers and a DSP. Or if money is tight, then doing one or the other now, and saving up funds for later.


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

K-pop sucks said:


> G/H power supply sounds terrible.


In some G/H amp cases .. I would agree with you.. but in regards to the Arc Audio Anniversary Amps.. this is not the case at all.

I own the Arc Anniversary 4050 CXLR .. and so far it sounds just as good if not better than the older CXL & CXL-R Arc Amps from the early 2000 - 03 era with a ton of power. Its an A/B output amp with a G/H power supply. Brad from Arc audio had told me "output is output" regardless of the power supply. Arc was able to fit the G/H power supply in the same "I-Beam" chassis and it performs beautifully. 

The efficiency of the amp has improved as well. It operates better than my older KS300.4 on my car's electrical system ( and sounds no where near the Arc KS line of amps - which I always thought sounded at a bit non-dimensional and gritty at times .. I'm also not a fan of the XDi line as well).

The Anniversary Edition amps have a fuller / more detailed sound (very similar to the 4150CXL-R), ton of power, internal fan, no distortion and super efficient.


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

So to summarize, buy crappy speakers, amps and an expensive Helix DSP? How about if I just buy all high end gear and install it that way if it sounds like **** I definitely know it's the install and/or tune.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Sam Spade said:


> Holmz, kd lang is hands down the best singer Ive ever heard live.* But i never saw Aretha sadly*. Or Whitney. And i haven't seen Mariah Carey but her and Whitney's material isn't so much my style. I'm a tragic for female vocalists. But you'll find Muse, Radiohead, Queen Led Zep, stevie ray vaughan, Prince, lenny Kravitz, Deep Purple, dire straits, rammstein, jeff buckley, talking heads, Calexico, the tea party, public enemy,
> 
> Thanks Holmz, that's very kind


Go to 52:45. I've got this episode saved on my DVR so maybe you can find a better recording.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Bchester6 said:


> So to summarize, buy crappy speakers, amps and an expensive Helix DSP? How about if I just buy all high end gear and install it that way if it sounds like **** I definitely know it's the install and/or tune.


Hi Bchester6

No that is not what i said. or at least it is not how I intended to be interpreted. 

My main message from selling heaps of home hifi, buying home hifi myself, and matching home and portable sources to headphones, and which I think applies to car hifi as well: use the best quality source files you can. buy equipment that is well matched. buy equipment that has a sound signature that you like ie trust your ears. 

And for cars, which I am a relative newbie on as all my previous system upgrades have just been a decent single din alpine head unit with a decent pair of front speakers and the fader turned all the way forward except when I have rear passengers is : Install it well. Get sound deadening insulation if you can afford it. If you have a DSP get it tuned by someone who knows what they are doing. 

What I said was this:

"And actually, what I think often makes home and car systems sound crap is oh so often people buying expensive speakers and cheap sources and Amps. If they're lucky all that will do is the speakers will reveal how crap the rest of the system is. But in a worst case scenario it's distortion and clipping from an amp that has no chance of driving inefficient or poorly matched speakers. Especially if you have the bass turned up on the tone controls/EQ. or a tiny amp driving a sub. (actually a **** install is probably just as big an issue)"


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Sam Spade said:


> Hi Bchester6
> 
> No that is not what i said. or at least it is not how I intended to be interpreted.
> 
> ...


All good. Actually, it was just a general overall response and not aimed at anything you stated specifically. The original OP had a legitimate query in regards to whether high-end equipment was worth the high-end price tag. We got various responses from the emphatic yes crew to the no save your money crew. The truth of the matter is that both are right and there's multiple paths you can take to achieve high fidelity. Some believe that purchasing all high-end equipment and components more or less guarantees this outcome given an exceptional installation has taken place. The other side says, you don't need high end all the way around to achieve results but instead you can achieve this level of sound using modestly priced equipment as long as it's an equally exceptional install and being processed by a capable DSP like the Helix Ultra which has been mentioned several times in this thread and in others. I'm somewhere in between but I certainly lean towards the buy the best you can so you don't ever have to worry about it camp. If it doesn't sound as good as you think it should then at least you know it's the installation and/or tune not because there's something better out there. Tuning and installation are about the only two things that are somewhat controllable in this arena of acoustical chaos.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Bchester6 said:


> All good. Actually, it was just a general overall response and not aimed at anything you stated specifically. The original OP had a legitimate query in regards to whether high-end equipment was worth the high-end price tag. We got various responses from the emphatic yes crew to the no save your money crew. The truth of the matter is that both are right and there's multiple paths you can take to achieve high fidelity. Some believe that purchasing all high-end equipment and components more or less guarantees this outcome given an exceptional installation has taken place. The other side says, you don't need high end all the way around to achieve results but instead you can achieve this level of sound using modestly priced equipment as long as it's an equally exceptional install and being processed by a capable DSP like the Helix Ultra which has been mentioned several times in this thread and in others. I'm somewhere in between but I certainly lean towards the buy the best you can so you don't ever have to worry about it camp. If it doesn't sound as good as you think it should then at least you know it's the installation and/or tune not because there's something better out there. Tuning and installation are about the only two things that are somewhat controllable in this arena of acoustical chaos.


When I was selling home hifi around 1990 we had a 3 way Bose speaker that sold for about AU$1000, a two way three driver Dali speaker that sold for about $2k and a two way spendor speaker that sold for about $3k. It might have been $4k. If you played all 3 to a customer on the same electronics the majority of customers preferred the Bose, fewer preferred the Dali and even fewer the Spendor. The Bose were the highest impact with the highest efficiency and the most, but not necessarily the deepest, bass. The spendors were the most accurate with acoustic music. they made a recording of a piano sound more like a piano than the other two speakers. But they didn't have the same dynamic response as the other two. They weren't good party speakers. They didn't sound like a PA at a gig. I couldn't live with the Bose. too coloured and not good enough treble and midrange. I could live with the spendors and they were truly beautiful. But i'd always know that when I played amplified music I wouldn't get the same dynamic response as a real gig. And even big orchestral pieces the spendors didn't have the dynamic response to feel like an orchestra. You had to spend twice as much on a spendor speaker to start getting the dynamic response along with the tonal purity. The Dalis were the best of both worlds. Tonally accurate and dynamic. But not as dynamic or as much bass as the bose or as much like a piano as the spendor. 

So what's my point? there are many dimensions to musical accuracy and musical reproduction. You can get all those dimensions if you spend enough, but it wont guarantee it. The $10K Dalis and the $10k spendors were both unbelievable but still very different. The spendors never delivered the same SPL as Dalis at the same price. For my money both left the comparably priced Bose speakers in the rear view window. Bose were great for parties though  And this is 1990 dollars remember. 

Even when you spend absolute megabucks most audio equipment is still a long way from the experience of a live performance. I've heard esoteric systems that were worth tens, some in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Still didn't sound like an orchestra at the Sydney Opera house or Queen in a stadium. So that means that whatever you spend it's still not going to be perfect. Actually I'm a decade or two out of date going to hifi shows and there have been some serious technological advances in electronics, materials and signal reproduction so it may be that the absolute best top end equipment does approximate live performances now. 

More money will tend to get you a better outcome. But your personal biases about what is important in musical reproduction, what dimensions of music are the most important, mean that you might prefer less or more expensive bits of equipment. I might think brand A is unbelievable and you might think brand B is. So trust your own ears. But I certainly agree with you, buy the best you can afford. I've rarely regretted spending too much. I've regretted spending too little. I still have the Dynaudio bookshelf speakers and marantz CD player and Amp I bought in 1990 on my desk as I write and it still sounds awesome.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Sam Spade said:


> When I was selling home hifi around 1990 we had a 3 way Bose speaker that sold for about AU$1000, a two way three driver Dali speaker that sold for about $2k and a two way spendor speaker that sold for about $3k. It might have been $4k. If you played all 3 to a customer on the same electronics the majority of customers preferred the Bose, fewer preferred the Dali and even fewer the Spendor. The Bose were the highest impact with the highest efficiency and the most, but not necessarily the deepest, bass. The spendors were the most accurate with acoustic music. they made a recording of a piano sound more like a piano than the other two speakers. But they didn't have the same dynamic response as the other two. They weren't good party speakers. They didn't sound like a PA at a gig. I couldn't live with the Bose. too coloured and not good enough treble and midrange. I could live with the spendors and they were truly beautiful. But i'd always know that when I played amplified music I wouldn't get the same dynamic response as a real gig. And even big orchestral pieces the spendors didn't have the dynamic response to feel like an orchestra. You had to spend twice as much on a spendor speaker to start getting the dynamic response along with the tonal purity. The Dalis were the best of both worlds. Tonally accurate and dynamic. But not as dynamic or as much bass as the bose or as much like a piano as the spendor.
> 
> So what's my point? there are many dimensions to musical accuracy and musical reproduction. You can get all those dimensions if you spend enough, but it wont guarantee it. The $10K Dalis and the $10k spendors were both unbelievable but still very different. The spendors never delivered the same SPL as Dalis at the same price. For my money both left the comparably priced Bose speakers in the rear view window. Bose were great for parties though  And this is 1990 dollars remember.
> 
> ...


I appreciate this response - it is very close to my experience with 2 channel, headphone audio, and mobile audio. Well said in my opinion and experience. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

The problem with "buying the best you can afford" is that someone who would prefer the Bose system will have spent more money than they needed to and enjoyed their music less at the same time, unless they did the audition. A lot of people make purchases based on the opinions of others and assume that more expensive always sounds better.


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Sam Spade said:


> When I was selling home hifi around 1990 we had a 3 way Bose speaker that sold for about AU$1000, a two way three driver Dali speaker that sold for about $2k and a two way spendor speaker that sold for about $3k. It might have been $4k. If you played all 3 to a customer on the same electronics the majority of customers preferred the Bose, fewer preferred the Dali and even fewer the Spendor. The Bose were the highest impact with the highest efficiency and the most, but not necessarily the deepest, bass. The spendors were the most accurate with acoustic music. they made a recording of a piano sound more like a piano than the other two speakers. But they didn't have the same dynamic response as the other two. They weren't good party speakers. They didn't sound like a PA at a gig. I couldn't live with the Bose. too coloured and not good enough treble and midrange. I could live with the spendors and they were truly beautiful. But i'd always know that when I played amplified music I wouldn't get the same dynamic response as a real gig. And even big orchestral pieces the spendors didn't have the dynamic response to feel like an orchestra. You had to spend twice as much on a spendor speaker to start getting the dynamic response along with the tonal purity. The Dalis were the best of both worlds. Tonally accurate and dynamic. But not as dynamic or as much bass as the bose or as much like a piano as the spendor.
> 
> So what's my point? there are many dimensions to musical accuracy and musical reproduction. You can get all those dimensions if you spend enough, but it wont guarantee it. The $10K Dalis and the $10k spendors were both unbelievable but still very different. The spendors never delivered the same SPL as Dalis at the same price. For my money both left the comparably priced Bose speakers in the rear view window. Bose were great for parties though  And this is 1990 dollars remember.
> 
> ...


I've never had components in my car that I didn't want as I subscribe to the "do it once and do it right" motto. I always do the homework and select what I want based on sonic characteristics right down to the wire and patch cables so I'm never wanting for more on that side. I do know one certainty, plentiful amounts of clean power to push speakers (any) is a great starting point to any installation whether it be class A,A/B, D, G, G/H. Tuning and installation are controlled variables that we can all live with. I have a certain sound I'm always aiming for but we all have a ceiling for the amount we're willing to spend to achieve it...


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

rain27 said:


> The problem with "buying the best you can afford" is that someone who would prefer the Bose system will have spent more money than they needed to and enjoyed their music less at the same time, unless they did the audition. A lot of people make purchases based on the opinions of others and assume that more expensive always sounds better.


I would agree. But those people won't be satisfied (mentally) unless they get that Bose system and the money will appear to be "well spent". Everybody has a different threshold for satisfaction and the costs associated with it.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

bertholomey said:


> I appreciate this response - it is very close to my experience with 2 channel, headphone audio, and mobile audio. Well said in my opinion and experience.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks bertholomey, very kind


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

jimmyjames16 said:


> In some G/H amp cases .. I would agree with you.. but in regards to the Arc Audio Anniversary Amps.. this is not the case at all.
> 
> I own the Arc Anniversary 4050 CXLR .. and so far it sounds just as good if not better than the older CXL & CXL-R Arc Amps from the early 2000 - 03 era with a ton of power. Its an A/B output amp with a G/H power supply. Brad from Arc audio had told me "output is output" regardless of the power supply. Arc was able to fit the G/H power supply in the same "I-Beam" chassis and it performs beautifully.
> 
> ...


I am a dealer for ARC and FYI, the internals of the KS amps and the Anniversary are identical. This would be the Psychoacoustics - you are hearing what you have been told to hear. But nonetheless, KS amps are VERY good sounding amps.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

rain27 said:


> The problem with "buying the best you can afford" is that someone who would prefer the Bose system will have spent more money than they needed to and enjoyed their music less at the same time, unless they did the audition. A lot of people make purchases based on the opinions of others and assume that more expensive always sounds better.


You've got to audition. You absolutely have to audition. In 1990 there were no online sales. So you couldn't be tempted by cheap internet deals. Car audio is also problematic even with a sound board you've rarely got the combo you want. Its spread across three different sound boards. And even if its on the same soundboard thats not what it sounds like in a car. But you've got to audition. Says the person who just put $AU9K of equipment in his car and only auditioned the front splits, hertz mille legend 1650.3s. 🤣 but i did get AU$6650 of Hertz gear for AU $3860. 58% of RRP in a liquidation. And i read reviews and talked to people and i know my way around audio and know what i like. I knew the amps would do the job and based on the specs extract the maximum performance out of the speakers. I went the safe route with subs low profile in boxes sealed one active one passive radiator. and i knew hertz would optimise the.performance far better than i could installing myself and i knew id be happy from the specs. And with the dsp i agonised and bit the bullet and bought the best i could afford. An ultra.

But regarding your pont about the bose its true. BUT the person who liked the $1000 bose best would have even more liked the $3000 bose. So if they'd auditioned they'd be fine


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Bchester6 said:


> I've never had components in my car that I didn't want as I subscribe to the "do it once and do it right" motto. I always do the homework and select what I want based on sonic characteristics right down to the wire and patch cables so I'm never wanting for more on that side. I do know one certainty, plentiful amounts of clean power to push speakers (any) is a great starting point to any installation whether it be class A,A/B, D, G, G/H. Tuning and installation are controlled variables that we can all live with. I have a certain sound I'm always aiming for but we all have a ceiling for the amount we're willing to spend to achieve it...


I think I'm repeating myself from this and probably other threads but I absolutely think that the biggest mistake people make, other than not auditioning, and this applies to home hifi, headphones and head amps, and car hifi, is spending too much money on speakers and too little on amps and sources. Especially amps. My Dalisuite3.5's at home are recommended 20-200 watt amp. They sound lovely on my Marantz PM80, a $2k 100wpc hi quality integrated amp. but they sound like a completely different speaker on my musical fidelity nuvista preamp and my Rotel RB1080 200wpc power amp. And rotel amps are typically conservative in their ratings and have awesome dynamic response and deliver transients really well. The Rotel makes them sound more like a live performance. The Dalis are rated at -3db at 32 Hz. The marantz didn't deliver that. the rotel does. and in my car I've got three Hertz HP802 SPL - class AB Stereo Amplifier 330rms into 4 ohms. The 1650.3s are rated 150 continuous, the 165.3 in the back doors are rated the same and the subs are 200 continuous. So i've got significantly more power than I need. But these amps are never going to clip or have distortion from being pushed too hard and they pack a truly awesome dynamic punch that makes the system sound so real.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> I think I'm repeating myself from this and probably other threads but I absolutely think that the biggest mistake people make, other than not auditioning, and this applies to home hifi, headphones and head amps, and car hifi, is spending too much money on speakers and too little on amps and sources. Especially amps. My Dalisuite3.5's at home are recommended 20-200 watt amp. They sound lovely on my Marantz PM80, a $2k 100wpc hi quality integrated amp. but they sound like a completely different speaker on my musical fidelity nuvista preamp and my Rotel RB1080 200wpc power amp. And rotel amps are typically conservative in their ratings and have awesome dynamic response and deliver transients really well. The Rotel makes them sound more like a live performance. The Dalis are rated at -3db at 32 Hz. The marantz didn't deliver that. the rotel does. and in my car I've got three Hertz HP802 SPL - class AB Stereo Amplifier 330rms into 4 ohms. The 1650.3s are rated 150 continuous, the 165.3 in the back doors are rated the same and the subs are 200 continuous. So i've got significantly more power than I need. But these amps are never going to clip or have distortion from being pushed too hard and they pack a truly awesome dynamic punch that makes the system sound so real.


That is a good point.
I guess the weak link exists somewhere, or all the gear is of the same level.

At least starting with the speakers, then they would not need to be upgraded. Or one upgrades in steps and hopefully not an endless upgrade cycle, but making big enough steps to avoid pissing away all the money endlessly,


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

Niebur3 said:


> I am a dealer for ARC and FYI, the internals of the KS amps and the Anniversary are identical. This would be the Psychoacoustics - you are hearing what you have been told to hear. But nonetheless, KS amps are VERY good sounding amps.


I beg to differ my brother.. all three amps installed within the past 3 months with hard listening .. I memorized a whole album with these amps alone..the Anniversary Edition took the cake hands down.. sounds like the old CXL - but more defined.


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

jimmyjames16 said:


> I beg to differ my brother.. all three amps installed within the past 3 months with hard listening .. I memorized a whole album with these amps alone..the Anniversary Edition took the cake hands down.. sounds like the old CXL - but more defined.
> 
> View attachment 266149
> 
> ...


More defined than the original is a hard feat. I still have one of the OG 4150's (grey) in the box and papers in the garage waiting for the right install. Did they adjust the input sensitivity on the new ones to take more than 2 volts?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

jimmyjames16 said:


> I beg to differ my brother.. all three amps installed within the past 3 months with hard listening .. I memorized a whole album with these amps alone..the Anniversary Edition took the cake hands down.. sounds like the old CXL - but more defined.


Well ****, you got me then. I mean Arc telling me themselves that they are identical means nothing compared to your unbiased double bind level matched listening test with lots of test subjects picking the Anniversary Edition.....oh wait, that's not how it happened at all.

Your ears will tell you want you want them to. Be careful trusting them. Also, audible memory is the worst.


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

Bchester6 said:


> More defined than the original is a hard feat. I still have one of the OG 4150's (grey) in the box and papers in the garage waiting for the right install. Did they adjust the input sensitivity on the new ones to take more than 2 volts?


I have the same same Grey CXLR 4150 being recapped by Brad now.. I will be comparing it to this A.E.4050 once I get it in the next 2 weeks. I'm not sure what was done specifically .. on the Arc website it says up to 3.5v sensitivity. I know one thing for sure.. it sounds much better the KS v2 series. They both put out the same power and have the same specs .. but do not sound the same.. no sir.


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

Niebur3 said:


> Well ****, you got me then. I mean Arc telling me themselves that they are identical means nothing compared to your unbiased double bind level matched listening test with lots of test subjects picking the Anniversary Edition.....oh wait, that's not how it happened at all.


Well.. 6 months ago Arc also told me that the A.E.4050 would sound exactly .. to if not the same as the XDi series.. so .. who to believe? I believe my ears.. no need to get wise


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

You aren't testing these in any sort of way that can merit anything more than picking based on looks. It is quiet possible then that the internals are the V3 internals. 

The problem I have is the claim you are making with the way you are "testing" them. I've done a few testes in my day.


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

Niebur3 said:


> You aren't testing these in any sort of way that can merit anything more than picking based on looks. It is quiet possible then that the internals are the V3 internals.
> 
> The problem I have is the claim you are making with the way you are "testing" them. I've done a few testes in my day.


I'm not here to convince you ... or even worse.. hijack this guy's thread. 

If you have a "problem" with what I had wrote based upon MY experience with these amps.. then that is YOUR "problem". 

I don't base anything "on looks". With 25 years of listening to gear .. I just might be able to discern what sounds good without somebody - who I don't even know .. telling me something - of what I SHOULD hear.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

jimmyjames16 said:


> I'm not here to convince you ... or even worse.. hijack this guy's thread.
> 
> If you have a "problem" with what I had wrote based upon MY experience with these amps.. then that is YOUR "problem".
> 
> I don't base anything "on looks". With 25 years of listening to gear .. I just might be able to discern what sounds good without somebody - who I don't even know .. telling me something - of what I SHOULD hear.


Just trying to help the newer people to this forum with fact vs fiction, that's all.

FWIW, I love ARC Amps, especially the KS and SE line. The newer ARC series is really nice also. They make fantastic amps.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Niebur3 said:


> You aren't testing these in any sort of way that can merit anything more than picking based on looks. It is quiet possible then that the internals are the V3 internals.
> 
> The problem I have is the claim you are making with the way you are "testing" them. I've done a few testes in my day.


And then even with good testing we can find that a Class-A transistor amp is very true with the output matching the input, but the distortion of the tubes can sound better to some.

So one needs to pick whether they want to use hard facts, or just go with ears and emotions.

I favour the facts, but one cannot dismiss the facts of psychology and emotions play a big role in perception.


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

Here is the internal board of the A.E. 4050CXLR.

If it is the same as the KSv3 series board.. then sign me up for some newer G/H lovin'.


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Sam Spade said:


> *You've got to audition. You absolutely have to audition*.
> 
> But regarding your pont about the bose its true. BUT the person who liked the $1000 bose best would have even more liked the $3000 bose. So if they'd auditioned they'd be fine


Well then, I got lucky. There wasn't much to read about review wise online so I went with the ARC 1000.6/PS8.8 soley on the recomendation of 2 posters here. And reading the website write up of the amp.. I'm no expert but the amp is/sounds fantastic. Of course good speakers and tuning helped.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Holmz said:


> And then even with good testing we can find that a Class-A transistor amp is very true with the output matching the input, but the distortion of the tubes can sound better to some.
> 
> So one needs to pick whether they want to use hard facts, or just go with ears and emotions.
> 
> I favour the facts, but one cannot dismiss the facts of psychology and emotions play a big role in perception.


Re that bose v dali v spendor post. And tubes v solid state. and vinyl vs digital. I just think music is an emotional experience. That's why I listen to it and go to gigs. Sure I think that what I want in my equipment is realism and accuracy. but ultimately I want the same sort of emotional experience I get when I see an act live. Or as close as I can get to it. IT might be that more coloured equipment delivers that.

And then what I said about musical reproduction, there are so many dimensions to it and the equipment most people can afford is so far from a complete and accurate recreation of a live performance, the dimensions that float your boat are the things you should be looking for a bias towards when you buy.

God I remember about 1990 Bose came out with this setup called the AM5. Acoustimass 5. It was remarkable. AU$1500, two pairs of tweeter cubes and an active sub box you could put anywhere in the room. And a space-age CD tuner? preamp called the lifestyle system that might have got up to close to AU$3000. It was completely remarkable and revolutionary. And very expensive in the scheme of Australian consumer hifi. (although some other esoteric brands like B&O may have had similar products). It looked amazing. It sounded so high impact. If you played it to customers they were amazed and when they took it home and played it to their friends they were amazed too. I don't know how many of these things I sold, they sold themselves. They were completely revolutionary. BUT THEY HAD NO MIDRANGE  And for me midrange is what makes music musical. But it didn't matter to most people.

So if the Lifestyle system or the $1000 bose 3 way speakers make someone more happy than the more expensive, or less expensive, more accurate alternatives I'm not going to ruin that for them. I'm going to sell them what makes them happy. Some customers came in looking to be educated and benefit from your expertise. Whichever type of customer it was you just try and ask them the right questions to work out what to play to them. And you pick something 20% cheaper than their budget, around the same as their budget and 20% more than their budget and they almost always buy the one in the middle anyway LOL.

Which is why we should be cautious about what we say on forums like this. I don't want to be part of the audiophile snobs (cos its ultimately about the music not the equipment, which is just a means to an end) or the golden ear wanker brigade (who believe in all this black magic nonsense about cables that cost as much as your amps etc). And I don't want to undermine other people's enjoyment of their equipment or the music they listen to.

Audition what you are interested in.buy what you like the sound of. Take the advice of people you can trust. Reviews can be useful, but there's hardly any reviews in car audio compared to Home hifi, headfi or portable digital players.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Well then, I got lucky. There wasn't much to read about review wise online so I went with the ARC 1000.6/PS8.8 soley on the recomendation of 2 posters here. And reading the website write up of the amp.. I'm no expert but the amp is/sounds fantastic. Of course good speakers and tuning helped.


So I said "*You've got to audition. You absolutely have to audition*. " I stand by that if at all possible. ESPECIALLY for speakers and headphones. cos they are the things that primarily dictate the sound signature of an audio setup. But It's not a perfect world SLick55. But I don't think you just got lucky. you have a fair idea about this stuff don't you?

But I've been a complete hypocrite lately. Actually for a long time. Until recently the last time I bought new home equipment was when I was selling it in the 90's. I agonizingly auditioned that stuff and did blind A/B comparisons to be sure I wasn't fooling myself. Since then I've upgraded by buying lots of home hifi 2nd hand off eBay without auditioning it. But quite a bit of it was stuff I had previously had in the showroom I worked in so I was familiar with it. And there were always lots of reviews for stuff I didn't know and I would usually be able to get my money back near enough if I decided I didn't like something. 

All my previous car hifi over the last 30 years has been a new head unit and front speakers. I always auditioned that. And I've rejected plenty of speakers I didn't like through the audition process. 

I bought my first personal digital audio player after extensive auditioning, an AU$750 Astell and Kern AK70. it was better than all the competition at that price and it completely smashes the audio performance of mobile phones which is why I wanted it. I so love it. Recently the Australian distributor was selling the top A&K player for half price as the blue ones weren't selling and a new model was coming out. I could have flown to Sydney or Melbourne to audition it but I took a punt and bought an AU $3500 player for $1750. That's just a ridiculous amount of money for a portable music player even at half price, but I could use it with headphones, and as a source into my home and car systems. There were lots of reviews too. I was lucky. It turned up and was completely mindblowing. maybe there's a bit of confirmation bias. But everyone who has heard it has been amazed too. It sounds sensational plugged into my home hifi and once I get the USB/SPDIF conversion setup in the car and plug it straight into my DSP it's going to leave my very respectable Kenwood head unit in the dust 

And I just bought a **** load of car audio equipment and all I auditioned were the front splits and I absolutely adored them and parked the idea cos they were really expensive,AU$1,500 plus an amp, head unit and install. And then got so lucky and got the whole lot being liquidated in a Sydney store at practically half RRP. Sometimes it's a value proposition that grabs me. The mille legend 165.3s are the little brothers of the 1650.3s I auditioned so I knew they'd be fine for the back. I knew the amps were going to do the job, they are massively overbuilt with more power than I'll ever use, they'll never clip because the speakers will start to distort first from too much power. And the subs specs looked fine. I'm deliriously happy. I didn't even know car DSP's existed let alone how important and beneficial they were three months ago. So I bought the top DSP I could afford/justify. It helped that the distributor talked to me after I emailed audiotech fischer and he said "_the helix mini wont do the job too few outputs. The DSP pro Mk2 is old architecture you don't want that. the DSP.3 and the Ultra share the same new architecture. The DSP.3 probably matches the level of the rest of your gear but the Ultra is 90% of an AU$8.000 Brax at a fraction of the cost and if you want to upgrade or go active in the future it will do anything you want." _When someone tells you to not buy their most popular and famous product you know they are probably being straight with you. So I spent the extra AU$1300 and got the Ultra just in case. But the DSP.3 at a bit less than half the price is probably more than i'd ever need, probably more than most people on this forum would ever need. 

But admittedly I'd be very reluctant to buy speakers without auditioning them. But I suspect that you and I can both look at the specs on an amp and work out if it will do the job. Whereas if you are a newbie you could end up with a woefully underpowered amp for the job. 

Where it starts getting hard for me, and probably you and many people on this forum is upgrading. Will the new CD player or Amp sound better than what I have and is it worth the money? If it's home hifi and you can take the component home it's easier. You can actually compare. But you can't do that so easily with car hifi. So you might end up dropping a bunch of cash on something that isn't good value.


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Speakers definitely need to be auditioned before purchasing. Amps are different ball game and I wouldn't hesitate to buy something from a reputable company before listening since all amplifiers sound the same anyways


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Kountz said:


> I've noticed with a lot of SQ snobs in the car audio industry they think they can't get a high quality sound unless they have Misconi or Sifoni amplifiers with focal Utopia or morel elate mids to achieve audio Nirvana. This is what I don't get... With real high-end lossless audio I don't give a damn if you have Infinity kappa components from the mid-90s... those songs will sound like the best you've ever heard.
> 
> My system right now is considered mid-grade(stereo integrity tm65 lll mids, SB acoustic sb29 tweeters, Zapco STX 6 channel SQ, Memphis audio PRX 1500 .1, stereo integrity rm15, JL audio twk 88, Sony Double-Din DX 7000) the gains aren't set correctly time alignment is off I don't have pure silver RCA cables definitely not a very good tune and bands like Nils Lofgren sound like you're in the damn recording studio. I can hear the pick stroke across the strings and and sucking the spit across the mic. with my bad tuning and mid grade level speakers and I can experience that type of sound quality. why in the hell would you spend $4,000 on an amplifier and $14,000 on a component set from Focal?
> 
> ...


Kountz I've written a bunch of posts in this thread that might interest you on the last page or two. But I'll try and be a bit more concise about your question. Set yourself a budget. Always try and audition with music you like listening to. Buy what sounds good to you. It isn't about how much you spend, it's whether what you spend is good value to you. We all have hobbies. 

As for throwing money around now, most of my mates and relatives my age buy or lease a brand new AU$40K to $60K to$80k to $100k car every 3 years. I just can’t imagine doing that, its just a car. I typically buy 3-8 year old cars with low km on, keep them for 8-10 years and spend my disposable income on mostly 2nd had really good hifi gear, CD’s, gigs and festivals. And now silly amounts at car hifi, as my car system including dynamat insulation and install and alarm and window tinting comes to about the same as the cars red book value. (that's what is used in Oz to work out the indicative value of 2nd hand cars.) But it sounds completely unbelievable and the car is where i spend more time listening to music than anywhere else. 

But I feel like I got great value. It makes me very happy, and music is critical to my mental health, and I've just had a whole bunch of gigs and festivals canceled for the foreseeable future. SO I had the cash spare. 

Don't be so harsh on your musical genres. What does it sound like at a gig? Isn't the aim to try and recreate that? Relive that emotional experience? I bet you need hi power amps with plenty of headroom to get the feel of a metal concert. I don't play a lot of metal at home. Actually Deep Purple live in Japan from the early 70's comes out a lot but that's really hard rock not metal. But I go to a few gigs. Rammstein sounded pretty ****ing awesome last time I saw them. I saw Ifriqiyya Electrique from the mosh pit at WOMADelaide in March. It was unbelievable and one of the most demonic and amazing things I've ever heard. They have taken African Saharan healing rituals which involves sacrificing animals and trance like dancing and flagellation and fused it with metal. I've got the CD i need to try it out in my car. 

_"*Ifriqiyya Electrique* was formed in the Djerid Desert in southern Tunisia, home to the Banga ritual of Sidi Marzûq. The Banga is a key annual event in the lives of the black communities of the oasis towns of southern Tunisia, descendants of the Hausa slaves transported from sub-Saharan Africa. " _








Laylet El Booree, by Ifriqiyya Electrique


10 track album




ifriqiyya-electrique.bandcamp.com





But fix your gains and time alignment and optimise your system. But what you've described it sounds like it is pretty good already. It sounds like you have a really good ear and you know what you like and you've assembled a system that delivers that. I'd pe pretty happy with that. 

But don't waste money on super expensive cables. That's all black magic and placebo and marketing nonsense. Although cars are like stages and studios, you need the right shielding and cable types in the right places to avoid noise problems. I'm not sure why car audio hasn't moved towards Balanced XLR cable types to help deal with those problems. But you don't need the $1000 cables with fairy dust sprinkled on them. That's just nonsense.  And in the end if a customer thinks Bose sounds better than Brax or scanspeak or focal or audison or Hertz, then send them home happy with Bose. That's what it's all about.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Bchester6 said:


> Speakers definitely need to be auditioned before purchasing. Amps are different ball game and I wouldn't hesitate to buy something from a reputable company before listening since all amplifiers sound the same anyways


Respectfully Bchester6 I disagree. Amps differ in dynamic headroom, tonal quality, how much bass extension and control you get, how harsh or gentle your treble is, how real the midrange is.

I've played the same home hifi system with different amps so many times and had the same speakers with the same source sound completely different. And If all amps sounded the same why aren't you running your car system on the 4 x50 watts your head unit puts out rather than wasting money on component amps?

EDIT Oh and I just saw you winking. so maybe the jokes on me  But I agree on one thing. I would never buy a speaker without auditioning but if I have to I reckon I can buy an amp based on specs. In fact I just bought three stereo amps that way. Reputable brand class AB putting out 330watts RMS per channel weighing 7.5 kg each drawing 100 amps with a damping factor of 500. S/N of 103 and THD 0.05. They do the job. I'm not sure i'd buy class D without an audition though. Not sure these new fangled inventions have proven themselves yet. Plus I can cook eggs and bacon on the Class AB amps. Hopefully they wont set the car on fire


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## SLicK55 AMG (Jan 23, 2020)

Sam Spade said:


> Respectfully Bchester6 I disagree. Amps differ in dynamic headroom, tonal quality, how much bass extension and control you get, how harsh or gentle your treble is, how real the midrange is.
> 
> I've played the same home hifi system with different amps so many times and had the same speakers with the same source sound completely different. And If all amps sounded the same why aren't you running your car system on the 4 x50 watts your head unit puts out rather than wasting money on component amps?
> 
> EDIT Oh and I just saw you winking. so maybe the jokes on me  But I agree on one thing. I would never buy a speaker without auditioning but if I have to I reckon I can buy an amp based on specs. In fact I just bought three stereo amps that way. Reputable brand class AB putting out 330watts RMS per channel weighing 7.5 kg each drawing 100 amps with a damping factor of 500. S/N of 103 and THD 0.05. They do the job. I'm not sure i'd buy class D without an audition though. Not sure these new fangled inventions have proven themselves yet.* Plus I can cook eggs and bacon on the Class AB amps. *Hopefully they wont set the car on fire


Maybe that's why ARC used a class G/H power source on their class AB Anniversary amps?


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Sam Spade said:


> Respectfully Bchester6 I disagree. Amps differ in dynamic headroom, tonal quality, how much bass extension and control you get, how harsh or gentle your treble is, how real the midrange is.
> 
> I've played the same home hifi system with different amps so many times and had the same speakers with the same source sound completely different. And If all amps sounded the same why aren't you running your car system on the 4 x50 watts your head unit puts out rather than wasting money on component amps?
> 
> EDIT Oh and I just saw you winking. so maybe the jokes on me  But I agree on one thing. I would never buy a speaker without auditioning but if I have to I reckon I can buy an amp based on specs. In fact I just bought three stereo amps that way. Reputable brand class AB putting out 330watts RMS per channel weighing 7.5 kg each drawing 100 amps with a damping factor of 500. S/N of 103 and THD 0.05. They do the job. I'm not sure i'd buy class D without an audition though. Not sure these new fangled inventions have proven themselves yet. Plus I can cook eggs and bacon on the Class AB amps. Hopefully they wont set the car on fire


Yes I was joking about amps sounding the same. I'm old school I don't even own a Class D amplifier but I have no doubts that they've come a long way.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

jimmyjames16 said:


> Here is the internal board of the A.E. 4050CXLR.
> 
> If it is the same as the KSv3 series board.. then sign me up for some newer G/H lovin'.
> 
> View attachment 266159


I'm absolutely not siding with anyone on this debate, but it does appear that the KS V3 design/board differs from the CXLR line. Now, being from the same company/designer/build house I wouldn't be surprised if there were some distinct similarities in design, but they certainly don't appear to be identical. 

Jimmy's photo of the CXLR 4050 above and there is a photo of the KS300.4 V3 guts in the PDF linked below. 
https://www.arcaudio.com/sites/default/files/2019-08/KS Series Amplifiers Spotlight RED.pdf


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

SLicK55 AMG said:


> Maybe that's why ARC used a class G/H power source on their class AB Anniversary amps?


I dont aven know what class gh is. I should read up on it


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

rton20s said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if there were some distinct similarities in design, *but they certainly don't appear to be identical*.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Well, If I was told wrong by ARC, then I was. Still doesn't change much. You still did a completely non scientific test and this is not something we should be telling people to do. Buy decent quality amp (expensive or not), but spend your time tuning your DSP to it's fullest potential.


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

I have to do a scientific test to have an opinion of what sounds good?? ... and if not .. then it is just false information? .. lol.. I mean c'mon.. and I didn't even tell anyone to do anything..


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

jimmyjames16 said:


> I have to do a scientific test to have an opinion of what sounds good?? ... and if not .. then it is just false information? .. lol.. I mean c'mon.. and I didn't even tell anyone to do anything..


Jimmyjames, the problem with peoples perceptions is we have confirmation bias, the placebo effect and god knows how many other factors and biases that screw up our ability to assess what's actuually going on in the world. So ideally double bind randomised experiments are the ideal way to prove stuff. Like if a new drug works or if one piece of audio equipment is better than another. But i reckon its a bit harsh to require someone on a forum to meet the standards to meet scientific proof. After all this is just a hobby its sposed to be fun 😄 but i bet theres not a single person on this forum that isnt deluding themselves about something in their hifi systems and lots of other things in their life. So i think its a bit harsh to expect you to meet a scientific standard 😄


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

IMO, you rarely need a "double blind randomized" test to determine if one piece of equipment performs better than another piece of equipment - especially in _your_ car, with _your_ music.  If those types of tests were really needed to tell the difference between any two pieces of equipment, we'd all be using $2 speakers, because if you need a "double blind randomized" test to tell that a "good" speaker (for example) sounds better than a "Generic" $2 speaker, then the difference isn't very big to begin with - so it really wouldn't matter what speaker you used. 

A lot of the time, it's clear that one piece of equipment performs better than another. It isn't all "confirmation bias" or "placebo effect". I think those terms are used a little too "loosely" around here. Yes, they are definitely a real thing, but sometimes a piece of equipment performs so much better than another piece of equipment that it's clearly and easily audible - using just your ears. I feel that "confirmation bias" and "placebo effect" - as well as "double blind randomized" tests are more applicable when you get to the upper, upper echelon of high-end equipment, where the audible difference between "Speaker A" and "Speaker B" (for example) are so small that you actually need "double blind randomized" testing to tell the difference (and again, for most of us, if it's that hard to tell the difference, then it's probably not even worth upgrading in the first place).

Granted, it's harder to tell the difference between two modern amps (compared to comparing speakers), but still, if you listen to the same music in your car repeatedly, I feel that you _can_ trust your ears to determine which piece of equipment sounds better (to you, at least). It may not be a "scientific" test, but when you know the sound of something so well, you _can_ tell the difference. Hell, I can hear the difference between two DSP tunes, even though the only difference is that the treble is 1dB higher or lower. It's certainly not "confirmation bias". The difference is obvious to me when playing certain songs that I use repeatedly when evaluating my tune.

Just my two cents - no 'double blind randomized" testing done - just my opinion.


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

jimmyjames16 said:


> I have to do a scientific test to have an opinion of what sounds good?? ... and if not .. then it is just false information? .. lol.. I mean c'mon.. and I didn't even tell anyone to do anything..


And unless you're using Audiofrog speakers and a Helix DSP your tests aren't valid anyways haha 
I'm a scientist in a lab and we don't even do double blind tests...parallel testing is more advantageous. If all things are the same and you're just swapping out amplifiers then I would expect for you to hear audible differences especially now that we know that they aren't the same design. Call it placebo effect or psychoacoustics... I just call it car audio.


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

jtrosky said:


> IMO, you rarely need a "double blind randomized" test to determine if one piece of equipment performs better than another piece of equipment - especially in _your_ car, with _your_ music.  If those types of tests were really needed to tell the difference between any two pieces of equipment, we'd all be using $2 speakers, because if you need a "double blind randomized" test to tell that a "good" speaker (for example) sounds better than a "Generic" $2 speaker, then the difference isn't very big to begin with - so it really wouldn't matter what speaker you used.
> 
> A lot of the time, it's clear that one piece of equipment performs better than another. It isn't all "confirmation bias" or "placebo effect". I think those terms are used a little too "loosely" around here. Yes, they are definitely a real thing, but sometimes a piece of equipment performs so much better than another piece of equipment that it's clearly and easily audible - using just your ears. I feel that "confirmation bias" and "placebo effect" - as well as "double blind randomized" tests are more applicable when you get to the upper, upper echelon of high-end equipment, where the audible difference between "Speaker A" and "Speaker B" (for example) are so small that you actually need "double blind randomized" testing to tell the difference (and again, for most of us, if it's that hard to tell the difference, then it's probably not even worth upgrading in the first place).
> 
> ...


Great response.
When I hear blind testing I think of this:


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

jtrosky said:


> IMO, you rarely need a "double blind randomized" test to determine if one piece of equipment performs better than another piece of equipment - especially in _your_ car, with _your_ music.  If those types of tests were really needed to tell the difference between any two pieces of equipment, we'd all be using $2 speakers, because if you need a "double blind randomized" test to tell that a "good" speaker (for example) sounds better than a "Generic" $2 speaker, then the difference isn't very big to begin with - so it really wouldn't matter what speaker you used.
> 
> A lot of the time, it's clear that one piece of equipment performs better than another. It isn't all "confirmation bias" or "placebo effect". I think those terms are used a little too "loosely" around here. Yes, they are definitely a real thing, but sometimes a piece of equipment performs so much better than another piece of equipment that it's clearly and easily audible - using just your ears. I feel that "confirmation bias" and "placebo effect" - as well as "double blind randomized" tests are more applicable when you get to the upper, upper echelon of high-end equipment, where the audible difference between "Speaker A" and "Speaker B" (for example) are so small that you actually need "double blind randomized" testing to tell the difference (and again, for most of us, if it's that hard to tell the difference, then it's probably not even worth upgrading in the first place).
> 
> Granted, it's harder to tell the difference between two modern amps (compared to comparing speakers), but still, if you listen to the same music in your car repeatedly, I feel that you _can_ trust your ears to determine which piece of equipment sounds better (to you, at least). It may not be a "scientific" test, but when you know the sound of something so well, you _can_ tell the difference. Hell, I can hear the difference between two DSP tunes, even though the only difference is that the treble is 1dB higher or lower. It's certainly not "confirmation bias". The difference is obvious to me when playing certain songs that I use repeatedly when evaluating my tune.


Perfectly said!

Its almost as if we have the "_All Time_ _Professors of Audio Aficionado Extraordinaire(s)"_ telling us plebes what to think here with "_scientific double blind placebos that can trick your mind / ears_".. haha... _"Do Not Trust Your Ears You Plebes!! .. no matter how long you have been in Car Audio!!!"_ .. lol.. holy cow!

The bottom line is the Arc A.E. amps are different than the KS or even the Xdi lines of amps with their own "sonic signature" (to quote Arc) which to me is very reminiscent of the older Arc CXL amps. I know this because I own both amplifiers.. I've been doing this for a long time (as many here). And I think if anyone were to audition one - they would agree. I'm not selling anything here (unlike some here on this thread) as for I had my doubts and passed up on buying this amp for the past 2 years.

It's almost like seeing your nephew grow (2) inches in the past (2) months .. you know the kid grew because you see him all the time - no "_psycho-double blind placebo scientific affect"_ there.. it is what it is - he is taller! 

The problem is there are not a lot of reviews out there and people are passing them up for sounding the same as the KS, XDi versions. They are a gem of an amp!


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## jimmyjames16 (Dec 12, 2006)

Bchester.. haha.. yes!


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

So if opinions rule all... What balances those opinions?

These things create black holes to pull in all the things that ruin your audio environment but can't be explained... For $600.





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Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Btw... It's not that science rules. It's that a lot of folks still here at diyma are constantly searching for ways to quantify differences. Our ears are all shaped different and our hearing damage isn't all the same either.

How do you know the difference between somebody who heard one way and has tinnitus vs a glowing review?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

The best is when someone on here gives their "opinion" on something that's relatively simple to understand, then you hear their car in person.. lol. Some wonder why I don't trust anyone on here. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> The best is when someone on here gives their "opinion" on something that's relatively simple to understand, then you hear their car in person.. lol. Some wonder why I don't trust anyone on here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## jsross (Sep 8, 2013)

BadSS said:


> Back when I was doing research on going active with my car, I couldn’t find much if any information. I was able to find a few detailed articles on Bi-Amping home speakers. While, not exactly “active”, it seems some were/are getting away with running as little as 30% of the power sent to the mid-bass speaker to the tweeters for a balanced sound (100w to mid-bass and 30w on tweeter).
> 
> While I installed numerous systems for myself, family, friends, and friends of friends over the past 40 years, I only have experience going active with my own car system. I know there are more experienced people that can probably explain the issue I ran across – if there really was one. Here’s what I experienced. I started out with 125 watts on the mid-bass (90.5dB sensitivity) and 60 watts on the tweeters (91dB sensitivity) – same brand and series amp (same input impedance). That’s 48% power to the tweeters, which is more than the 30% these home systems are getting away with, so I thought I would be fine. I could get it to sound great at my typical listening level but the balance between the two wouldn’t sound right at higher volume or lower volume to a lesser degree. I stepped up to 75 watts on the tweeters and it held the “balance” at all listening levels. When I later bumped up to 200 watts on the mid-bass, I bumped up to 125 watts on the tweeters and it stayed balanced – both were sending about 60% of the mid-bass power to the tweeters.
> 
> ...


You will just about ALWAYS end up chasing your tail and pulling your hair when trying to compare car audio to home audio, or any other audio environment for that matter. Because when dealing with sound, "environment" is the main contributing factor as it affects every aspect of what sound we hear. In everything but car audio, the environment is controlled and static, a building or structure. There's difference between them, like a recording studio and someone's living room or a concert arena, which require, mostly because of the differences in size, different audio equipment, design theories and protocols, etc. but for the most part there basically the same as far as the 5 characteristics of sound *Wavelength, Amplitude, Time-Period, Frequency and Velocity or Speed, *so it's possible to have a, theoretically, known outcome to how something will sound. With a vehicle having all kinds of different angles and curves and so made out of so many different materials, then factor in road noise and having to mount audio drivers so close and all kinds of spread out places for multiple listening locations.........If audio was an animal, car audio is A ****ING PLATYPUS!!!


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## Kountz (Oct 12, 2017)

rain27 said:


> The problem with "buying the best you can afford" is that someone who would prefer the Bose system will have spent more money than they needed to and enjoyed their music less at the same time, unless they did the audition. A lot of people make purchases based on the opinions of others and assume that more expensive always sounds better.


My problem with the car audio industry is the salesman will always say "what is your budget?" The way I see it is I don't like to compromise. If there's something that sounds better but cost a little more money I want that ****. I'll just not buy that day and save up until I have the money to get what I really want. I'm an Aries... We are materialistic vain and we don't like to compromise. However, there are situations where you don't have to spend top dollar on gear just because of the label. There could be an up-and-comer that's an excellent product but not enough people know about it. Sometimes it's nice to find a diamond in the rough. For the most part you get what you pay for. 

The biggest thing with me is the type of music I listen to. Will I actually benefit from running really high-end speakers and amplifiers if most of my music is poorly recorded? my biggest goal in car audio is to have a very solid front stage where you can hear and feel the kick drum coming from the front of the vehicle. I want to feel it in my chest. I don't think I can achieve that unless I run large mid woofers in the front, give them a **** ton of power have compression drivers mounted up underneath the dash and have high quality subwoofers that can keep up and give the excitement to the mid-bass drivers. Some say I could just get away with running Pro audio drivers instead of looking at high-end scanspeak illuminator and **** like that. Every shop I've ever been to that sold high-end equipment like focal and morrel they always refer me to Alpine or JL audio and tell me that I'd be wasting my money going with top of the line speakers that they weren't designed for that and I would end up burning up the voice coils.

Shouldn't really good speakers sound really good? I know in the headphone industry my hd650 Sennheiser cans sound awesome for metal. They have this dark tone to them that doesn't exacerbate metal drummers that beat the living hell out of their cymbals. I guess that's the sound I'm looking for. Almost like I'm in a black vacuum. I don't want super bright crispy tweeters I want to hear the drop tune guitar bass riffage, solid impactful kick drum the ability to play loud and hear all the nuances at low volume and feel like my head is inside of the speaker not me standing away from the speaker.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Kountz said:


> My problem with the car audio industry is the salesman will always say "what is your budget?" The way I see it is I don't like to compromise.


If thats the case, drop off the car for a month or two and bring your black card


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

good Lord these topics and reasoning keep getting better and better


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Measure, plot, graph,etc... and then have a judge step into your vehicle and listen for 5 minutes only to tell you how ****ty it sounds haha. All the science that goes into it and in the end it's always human ears that determine the outcome. And why aren't judges wearing blindfolds?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Bchester6 said:


> And why aren't judges wearing blindfolds?


We have had blind judges in the past.


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Nice. I haven't met a judge yet that wasn't "blind" to some extent


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## BadSS (Feb 2, 2008)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Btw... It's not that science rules. It's that a lot of folks still here at diyma are constantly searching for ways to quantify differences. Our ears are all shaped different and our hearing damage isn't all the same either.
> 
> How do you know the difference between somebody who heard one way and has tinnitus vs a glowing review?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Building upon I800's comments,,

I think a lot of these posts and comments about “they all sound the same”, and the pursuing argument, revolves around some people refusing to believe that others can hear or perceive details in music that they can’t. People have different sized and shaped outer ears. So, it bears to reason that there would be slight variances within the 2K – 5K resonance range of this part of the ear and to some extend the initial “collection of sound”. This might be one of many reasons explaining people’s speaker preference regarding basic tonal characteristics or their ability to hear better details within that range.

Due to the mechanical complexity involved and the critical role that the middle and inner ear plays in the auditory process (converting sound waves into neurons/neural signals), I can’t help but believe this is another area, for varying physiological or medical reasons, that explains variances in people’s perception of the music and the amount of detail one is able to send to the brain for “processing”.

I don’t think anyone can argue there are people gifted with capabilities that exceed normal, like those with photographic memories and musicians that are able to perfectly play a piece of music instantly after hearing it for the first time. There are also “super tasters” that make up about 25% of the population and those with better than 20/20 vision. These abilities can be witnessed, easily proven, and therefore accepted. However, one’s ability to perceive sound and at what detail or recollection of detail is hard to prove, but it certainly stands to reason there are more than likely those able to hear and perceive sounds better than others.

About the closest thing to proof that I know if is that CT scans have shown some areas, other than just the auditory cortex of the brain in some people are more active when subjected to sounds than others - typically in areas that normally deal with recollection or memory. However, even experts within that field of study can’t agree on what that means – what they can agree on is that no two cortices perform in the exact same way.

To me this all means since there is proof that all people’s brains are not acting the same when they hear something, it is likely there are people that are going to perceive or relate to sounds differently than others. What that means in the grand scheme of things will probably continue to be debated and questioned for years to come.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

BadSS said:


> Building upon I800's comments,,
> 
> I think a lot of these posts and comments about “they all sound the same”, and the pursuing argument, revolves around some people refusing to believe that others can hear or perceive details in music that they can’t. People have different sized and shaped outer ears. So, it bears to reason that there would be slight variances within the 2K – 5K resonance range of this part of the ear and to some extend the initial “collection of sound”. This might be one of many reasons explaining people’s speaker preference regarding basic tonal characteristics or their ability to hear better details within that range.
> 
> ...


I'll take a plot any day if the week,and twice on Sunday, over someone claiming some magical nuance using words like "transparent", "musical", "attack", and "warmth".

Once it looks good on paper, then I am more apt to believe in some extra magic, but not before.

And then some of the people claiming it is magical also do not know how to read or generate a plot.

The fact that some of the amps and speaker mentioned in here that are "high end", actually have measurable lower distortion than "low end", which sort of can be used as a basis for being higher fidelity than a repsroduction which is more distorted.

We have science as a fundamental way to generate models of how things work, and those models evolve to comport with reality.


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## Bchester6 (Jan 15, 2020)

Holmz said:


> The fact that some of the amps and speaker mentioned in here that are "high end", actually have measurable lower distortion than "low end", which sort of can be used as a basis for being higher fidelity than a repsroduction which is more distorted.


And that's why we need super high-end audio equipment!!! Lock her up ☺


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## BadSS (Feb 2, 2008)

Holmz said:


> I'll take a plot any day if the week,and twice on Sunday, over someone claiming some magical nuance using words like "transparent", "musical", "attack", and "warmth".
> 
> Once it looks good on paper, then I am more apt to believe in some extra magic, but not before.
> 
> ...


Even though I believe there are people more capable of “hearing” things than others, I agree in that the objective information (specs/plots) have to support someone’s subjective review (opinions, emotional, and judgmental review) for me to be inclined to believe it.

I’ve installed numerous stereos for myself, family, friends, and friends of friends for around 40 years. Almost every amplifier I installed for folks, I “tested” within my own system. By far the majority of these amps (most A/B covering a wide range of cost) sounded very similar in tone at normal listening levels. The biggest differences that everyone should be able to hear and can/should be able to support with the specs were in the noise floor, the dynamics between similarly rated power, and how they sounded at or around clipping.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Most of the "this amp sounds better" propaganda is akin to Dowsing.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Gump_Runner said:


> Most of the "this amp sounds better" propaganda is akin to Dowsing.


That actually works. I work in the construction industry and had an old timer use this technique to find some underground pipes on my job and marked them. Then they had an expensive scanner come in and it located the pipes just as well in the same spots. I’ve tried it myself with dig safe marks and with my daughter and it reacted to just about every dig safe mark. It works by magnetics through the earths magnetic field I think and your dowsing rod needs to be metal. I was a huge skeptic until that guy showed me how to do it and prove me wrong. Trying to locate water bottles with it, it like they did in that video isn’t the right way to do it so I think it wouldn’t work that way. I think it’s most effective at locating metal pipes underground. That video was designed to create controversy so more people share and watch his video and he gets to views.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

JCsAudio said:


> That actually works. I work in the construction industry and had an old timer use this technique to find some underground pipes on my job and marked them. Then they had an expensive scanner come in and it located the pipes just as well in the same spots. I’ve tried it myself with dig safe marks and with my daughter and it reacted to just about every dig safe mark. It works by magnetics through the earths magnetic field I think and your dowsing rod needs to be metal. I was a huge skeptic until that guy showed me how to do it and prove me wrong. Trying to locate water bottles with it, it like they did in that video isn’t the right way to do it so I think it wouldn’t work that way. I think it’s most effective at locating metal pipes underground. That video was designed to create controversy so more people share and watch his video and he gets to views.


When you do a scientific experiment you need to be explicitly clear about what your question/hypothesis is. the question in the video is about finding water compared to sand. They couldn't find water. 

JC you could devise a double blind randomised experiment to see dowsers can find metal pipes, or metal pipes with water. Im a sceptic, I expect the results would be the same. But I could be wrong, Australian aboriginals can find water in the deserts in central Australia. There's nothing mystical about it. Or magnetic. They know what signs to look for that are associated with water. It's knowledge that's been passed down for hundreds, maybe thousands of generations. 

Water diviners claim to be able to find water irrespective of metal pipes that's another hypothesis that could be tested. 

This thread is a whole bunch of opinions over two or three/eight questions /hypotheses and that is a big part of the difference of opinions. I'm not sure I've got this right yet but the questions are
1) what do I like the sound of best?
2) what equipment gives me more pleasure?
3) Do two things sound different?
4) does one thing sound better than another?
5) can scientific measurements account for or do they correlate with what sounds better? 
6) are expensive cable manufacturers money grubbing charlatans 

Clearly different people have different hearing capacities due to ear morphology, ear structure and psycho-acoustic processing in the brain, and listening experience. That's why you have randomised tests. It's the same as with different people responding differently to drugs or other medical treatments. 

Then there is the value proposition. some things may well sound better than others. But do you think it is worth the money and other trade offs for that difference in sound?

I'm going to think more about this and expand on it. 

But there's one thing I'm certain of. some Amps sound different than others.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Demoing other peoples cars and finding them to be lacking despite super high dollar equipment is not a great way to evaluate said equipment. Any piece of gear is part of a whole system in our cars. The system is only going to perform as well as the weakest link. If you have tweeters that are a couple db too loud, the system is too bright and tinny. A couple db too low and the system lacks detail. If you have midranges installed in small poorly built pods, you have peaks, resonance and poor midrange performance. If your system is not properly time aligned and eq'd, your phase is wonky.
Every component (especially design, installation and tuning) are very important. A system with great gear and poor tuning sounds like crap. A system with with great gear, poor install and great tuning doesn't reach it's potential.

Not all expensive gear is high performance gear. But let's not start saying that it isn't worth it and doesn't perform better than X or Y drivers without some solid reasoning. Scanspeak Revelators (as the OP mentioned) have a lot of engineering and quality parts in them to arrive at a world class level of performance. Are they cheap? No. But you are getting top level performance for your money and there are PLENTY of other drivers out there with much higher price tags, marketing nonsense and fancy finishes that can't perform like them. Sometimes the expensive driver is expensive because of the technology, engineering, expensive parts, or expense to produce in a specific region. Sometimes it is also expensive because of the market segment the manufacturer is targeting. Maybe specific design features that don't contribute to an increase in performance are made because they satisfy other goals like aesthetics or something exotic or rare. Each of these things adds value to a specific target segment. Because you do not find value in that specific decision does not mean that someone else does not find value in it- nor should they be made to feel foolish because they do. 
Any outsider from the car audio aftermarket could say anyone who spends money on a system is crazy because it's just a car. People who don't appreciate fine or performance automobiles may think someone is crazy for spending big money on these cars because "it's just to get you from point A to point B".
The point is, we all get enjoyment from different things and evaluate value differently based on our preferences and economic situation, ideals, etc.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Bchester6 said:


> Measure, plot, graph,etc... and then have a judge step into your vehicle and listen for 5 minutes only to tell you how ****ty it sounds haha. All the science that goes into it and in the end it's always human ears that determine the outcome. And why aren't judges wearing blindfolds?


Well for starters, because it's dumb...and impractical. Do you compete? Do you understand the process?
Judges need to be able to see to manipulate controls for track and volume and to actually write scores and comments as they proceed. Sure, it would be great to eliminate more bias from judging with something like this, but it is unrealistic.

Of course it's human ears that do the judging. Judging is conducted in a manner that aims to be objective, but is subjective in nature because we do hear things differently for various reasons. And we aren't going to/don't want to change that. Competitors don't want to be judged using a machine/RTA. Competition is about building something that gets the respect of your peers and satisfies your goals.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

captainobvious said:


> Demoing other peoples cars and finding them to be lacking despite super high dollar equipment is not a great way to evaluate said equipment. Any piece of gear is part of a whole system in our cars. The system is only going to perform as well as the weakest link. If you have tweeters that are a couple db too loud, the system is too bright and tinny. A couple db too low and the system lacks detail. If you have midranges installed in small poorly built pods, you have peaks, resonance and poor midrange performance. If your system is not properly time aligned and eq'd, your phase is wonky.
> Every component (especially design, installation and tuning) are very important. A system with great gear and poor tuning sounds like crap. A system with with great gear, poor install and great tuning doesn't reach it's potential.
> 
> Not all expensive gear is high performance gear. But let's not start saying that it isn't worth it and doesn't perform better than X or Y drivers without some solid reasoning. Scanspeak Revelators (as the OP mentioned) have a lot of engineering and quality parts in them to arrive at a world class level of performance. Are they cheap? No. But you are getting top level performance for your money and there are PLENTY of other drivers out there with much higher price tags, marketing nonsense and fancy finishes that can't perform like them. Sometimes the expensive driver is expensive because of the technology, engineering, expensive parts, or expense to produce in a specific region. Sometimes it is also expensive because of the market segment the manufacturer is targeting. Maybe specific design features that don't contribute to an increase in performance are made because they satisfy other goals like aesthetics or something exotic or rare. Each of these things adds value to a specific target segment. Because you do not find value in that specific decision does not mean that someone else does not find value in it- nor should they be made to feel foolish because they do.
> ...


I agree that there are too many variables involved to simply listen to someone's system and form a complete opinion on how the speakers perform. It's amazing how bad any speaker can sound in a car.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Sam, it would not be worth my time to go through all that trouble. I also believe the dowsing rods align with the slight magnetic interference caused by the metal pipes underground, not the water itself. I was a total skeptic until a seasoned veteran in my industry proved me wrong time and time again. I told him he was whacked but he was right and showed me how there is a specific way you have to make and hold it for it to work.

Back to the topic that no one can agree on mostly because most of us probably don’t have enough experience to know it all. This is why we have experts in car audio who do nothing but this for a living because it’s actually quite complicated.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

JCsAudio said:


> Sam, it would not be worth my time to go through all that trouble. I also believe the dowsing rods align with the slight magnetic interference caused by the metal pipes underground, not the water itself. I was a total skeptic until a seasoned veteran in my industry proved me wrong time and time again. I told him he was whacked but he was right and showed me how there is a specific way you have to make and hold it for it to work.
> 
> Back to the topic that no one can agree on mostly because most of us probably don’t have enough experience to know it all. This is why we have experts in car audio who do nothing but this for a living because it’s actually quite complicated.


Have you used a magetometer?


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Holmz said:


> Have you used a magetometer?


Nope and probably never will either.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Magnetometers are used to measure magnetic fields.

You belief in dowsing could be proven or disproved with one.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

JCsAudio said:


> Nope and probably never will either.


Jc and holmes i don't think there's any chance it's magnetic.I'm pretty sure the dowsers that are successful are using other cues from the environment and it's probably even subconscious. Same with water diviners. Cues like Australian Aboriginals use.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

captainobvious said:


> Well for starters, because it's dumb...and impractical. Do you compete? Do you understand the process?
> Judges need to be able to see to manipulate controls for track and volume and to actually write scores and comments as they proceed. Sure, it would be great to eliminate more bias from judging with something like this, but it is unrealistic.
> 
> Of course it's human ears that do the judging. Judging is conducted in a manner that aims to be objective, but is subjective in nature because we do hear things differently for various reasons. And we aren't going to/don't want to change that. Competitors don't want to be judged using a machine/RTA. Competition is about building something that gets the respect of your peers and satisfies your goals.


Bchester, it sounds a lot like wine tasting shows and judging them. And in it's all a matter of taste really. if a chardonnay gets 98 points on a "technical" assessment, but you don't like the taste of chardonnay, then it doesn't matter what score it gets. I suspect car hifi is the same. Judges presumably have specific criteria that they assess against. But if you like more or less bass, or brighter or softer treble, or if you love extra midrange so vocals and piano sound better, then a car might get 98 but you might not like it or want your car set up the same way. 

But you could easily put wine in a paper bag or into identical bottles. Not so easy with a car.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Sam Spade said:


> Jc and holmes i don't think there's any chance it's magnetic.I'm pretty sure the dowsers that are successful are using other cues from the environment and it's probably even subconscious. Same with water diviners. Cues like Australian Aboriginals use.


You don't think there is a chance... but one could actually test it.
(And they probably have)
Water seems to destroy speakers inside of a door that gets rain, so maybe the water is attracted to the magnetic fields? 

The dowser's ability to wonder why it did not work was pretty phenomenal.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

captainobvious said:


> Well for starters, because it's dumb...and impractical. Do you compete? Do you understand the process?
> Judges need to be able to see to manipulate controls for track and volume and to actually write scores and comments as they proceed. Sure, it would be great to eliminate more bias from judging with something like this, but it is unrealistic.
> 
> Of course it's human ears that do the judging. Judging is conducted in a manner that aims to be objective, but is subjective in nature because we do hear things differently for various reasons. And we aren't going to/don't want to change that. Competitors don't want to be judged using a machine/RTA. Competition is about building something that gets the respect of your peers and satisfies your goals.


Just for fun...

Wouldn't it put a lot of questions to rest, if for example, a judge was blindfolded before getting into the car? That judge would have with them a standardized remote that they carry to each vehicle. This remote controls the volume and tracks that they'll be listening to in order to evaluate the system. Competitions could require a standardized interface (it could be done even more simply that a generic steering wheel control module). The judges would be guided (they are blindfolded after all) from car to car were they will connect their own remote, and then begin evaluating each sound system.

So, hypothetically, due to the blindfold, they can't see whether it's a BMW, or a Dodge Neon, they can't see the brand of speakers, or whether it's a stealth install, or full blown custom install with dash pods the size of coffee cans... we've eliminated the visual bias. Next, because they are using a standardized remote, the judge uses the same buttons for volume, and track control for each car that they evaluate. This eliminates some of the tactile bias that comes from judging a Kenwood double din's cheesy volume buttons against Denon, Mcintosh, or Helix Director's sturdy volume knob (somethng that definitely adds to the overall perception of quality, but adds nothing to how the stereo actually sounds).

Once the judge gets into this mystery car, they get to listen, and they get to control the sound by using the same buttons that they'll have for each car. They won't know if they are controlling a Panasonic 'Bottlehead', or an entry level JVC stereo. By doing this we eliminate the visual bias, and some of the tactile bias. Unfortunately, we can't eliminate all of the tactile bias because the seating position, seat comfort, how the car smells, etc. all contribute to a feeling of quality, sportiness, or prestige. Even blind folded, settling into the seat of an AMG G Wagon is going to feel different that settling into the seat of a base model Neon. We can't eliminate the tactile bias completely, but using a standardized remote helps.

Proper sound quality judging should be on the audio only, it should not be about the styling, or comfort of a car. A car in a sound quality competition shouldn't be judged by the brand/model of the speakers, amps, cables, or badge on the hood. None of these things should even be revealed to the judge. We already have plenty of other competitions that consider a car's ( or speaker's, amp's. etc.) performance, styling, comfort, reliability, efficiency, etc. None of those matter from a sound quality standpoint, we only care about the audio aspect, so we need to eliminate as many of the other influences as possible.

In order to separate the nonsense from the truth, as many variables as possible have to be eliminated. Even in current SQ competitions, there are still a significant amount of visual, and tactile bias' that haven't been eliminated. These bias' most certainly contribute to scores. You could have the exact same sound in a base model Neon as you have in a top tier BMW, but if you're the judge, and you open the door to a BMW, take a seat, and use the weighty volume knob of the Helix Director, then you'll have a much more satisfying experience than if you walked up to a Neon, opened the door, fell into the cloth seat, and adjusted the volume with the buttons of a JVC double din. Your experience may be different, but the sound quality isn't. So, unfortunately, the BMW will score much higher than the Neon, despite being a sound quality competition, and despite only winning due to things that have nothing to do with the actual sound of the car.


Captain Obvious is right that we can't eliminate bias, we never will and, blindfolded judges with "clickers" probably isn't something you'll ever see in a sound quality competition. It was more of an example of the extreme measures that are required in order to eliminate bias'.


Scientifically though, unless we eliminate bias, the test isn't trustworthy. I believe that people are far too confident in their resistance to bias. Nobody is exempt from it, but most people think they are. The best we can do is recognize how it may be influencing us, and try our best to keep it from making up our minds for us.

Bu,t that's ok. The process can still be fun and worthwhile, without eliminating every variable. It may not be super scientific, but it can still be fun.

As long as you (or a judge) can see, or feel differences, those differences will influence your judgement. The only way to judge fairly is to eliminate as many variables, and bias' as possible. If you can't eliminate bias, then the results are anecdotal at best. Anecdotal is perfectly acceptable, but don't confusion anecdotal with scientific.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

gijoe said:


> Just for fun...
> 
> Wouldn't it put a lot of questions to rest, if for example, a judge was blindfolded before getting into the car? That judge would have with them a standardized remote that they carry to each vehicle. This remote controls the volume and tracks that they'll be listening to in order to evaluate the system. Competitions could require a standardized interface (it could be done even more simply that a generic steering wheel control module).


It's unrealistic to think that there could be a standardized remote for controlling track and volume when competitors use sources ranging from stock, to cd players, to ipads/phones, to DAPs.There will be no single solution that can accomplish this.




gijoe said:


> The judges would be guided (they are blindfolded after all) from car to car were they will connect their own remote, and then begin evaluating each sound system.
> 
> So, hypothetically, due to the blindfold, they can't see whether it's a BMW, or a Dodge Neon, they can't see the brand of speakers, or whether it's a stealth install, or full blown custom install with dash pods the size of coffee cans... we've eliminated the visual bias.


They also can't see to walk. Should we lead all judges around arena's by the hand? What about safety in getting in and out of cars? What about when they need to write down notes and scoring for each section as they go through the competition disc? For some judging, a judge also needs to be able to see the actual physical boundaries in order to score.



gijoe said:


> Proper sound quality judging should be on the audio only, it should not be about the styling, or comfort of a car. A car in a sound quality competition shouldn't be judged by the brand/model of the speakers, amps, cables, or badge on the hood. None of these things should even be revealed to the judge. We already have plenty of other competitions that consider a car's ( or speaker's, amp's. etc.) performance, styling, comfort, reliability, efficiency, etc. None of those matter from a sound quality standpoint, we only care about the audio aspect, so we need to eliminate as many of the other influences as possible.


I don't disagree with this at all. Less bias is a great thing.




gijoe said:


> As long as you (or a judge) can see, or feel differences, those differences will influence your judgement. The only way to judge fairly is to eliminate as many variables, and bias' as possible. If you can't eliminate bias, then the results are anecdotal at best. Anecdotal is perfectly acceptable, but don't confusion anecdotal with scientific.


SQ competition is subjective. The efforts to reduce bias are through the judging guidelines, scoring process and standardized media used in evaluation. These at least provide some structure and direction for the judges to follow to score cars with as much objectivity as they are able to. It is certainly not a perfect process and yes there are flaws and issues, but I don't think anyone would/could realistically change much to improve the process (for various reasons). It just comes with the territory.
The bigger beef many have is when the same judges are used and the same cars continue to win. This is a problem too.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

captainobvious said:


> It's unrealistic to think that there could be a standardized remote for controlling track and volume when competitors use sources ranging from stock, to cd players, to ipads/phones, to DAPs.There will be no single solution that can accomplish this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm confused by this statement "I don't disagree with this at all. Less bias is a great thing." That's my whole point, eliminate as much bias as possible. You're absolutely right that we can't eliminate it all. 

I'm not suggesting that my ideas are practical, or even really possible. It was more of a hypothetical scenario to show how much visual, and tactile bias play a roll in how a car is perceived to sound, and eliminating as many of these biases as possible would be helpful. 

What is possible though, is for people to understand that we are all vulnerable to bias, and by keeping that in mind people will be able to select great gear to meet their goals, and that gear doesn't necessarily carry a name that they are familiar with.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

gijoe said:


> Just for fun...
> 
> Wouldn't it put a lot of questions to rest, if for example, a judge was blindfolded before getting into the car? That judge would have with them a standardized remote that they carry to each vehicle. This remote controls the volume and tracks that they'll be listening to in order to evaluate the system. Competitions could require a standardized interface (it could be done even more simply that a generic steering wheel control module). The judges would be guided (they are blindfolded after all) from car to car were they will connect their own remote, and then begin evaluating each sound system.
> 
> ...


and that GIjoe is one of the best posts I've read on this forum


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## fatstrat (Jul 12, 2019)

Hey Kountz I found some kick drums to check your system with.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gijoe said:


> Just for fun...
> 
> Wouldn't it put a lot of questions to rest, if for example, a judge was blindfolded before getting into the car? That judge would have with them a standardized remote that they carry to each vehicle. This remote controls the volume and tracks that they'll be listening to in order to evaluate the system. Competitions could require a standardized interface (it could be done even more simply that a generic steering wheel control module). The judges would be guided (they are blindfolded after all) from car to car were they will connect their own remote, and then begin evaluating each sound system.
> 
> ...


The only thing this post does is shows that you haven't a clue how competition "is" and haven't been to one in a very long time, if at all. Am I correct?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

gijoe said:


> I'm confused by this statement "I don't disagree with this at all. Less bias is a great thing." That's my whole point, eliminate as much bias as possible. You're absolutely right that we can't eliminate it all.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that my ideas are practical, or even really possible. It was more of a hypothetical scenario to show how much visual, and tactile bias play a roll in how a car is perceived to sound, and eliminating as many of these biases as possible would be helpful.
> 
> What is possible though, is for people to understand that we are all vulnerable to bias, and by keeping that in mind people will be able to select great gear to meet their goals, and that gear doesn't necessarily carry a name that they are familiar with.


What I meant is that I know we are biased. Just that the idea of blindfolding (which has been mentioned before on the forum) is a no-go- it's problematic. If there are more realistic, actionable ideas about how to reduce bias then I'd love to hear them. People just have to understand that competition is imperfect. It will never be truly objective.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> The only thing this post does is shows that you haven't a clue how competition "is" and haven't been to one in a very long time, if at all. Am I correct?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Skizer I've never been to a car audio show, but I've been to wine shows and cat shows and dog shows and baking shows, and have all sorts of expertise in psychology and ecology and sampling methods, surveys and experiments. GI joe's comments may not be functionally realistic in a car audio show, but his idea of eliminating bias is spot on. Confirmation bias and placebo are real and they are out there and affect all of us.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

give it up, there will always be bias, car audio shows isn't about the most accurate sounding cars, its an ego boost and nothing more. justification on ones product and money spent. its sad that you guys cannot just enjoy the music, this whole thread is about justifying how someone hears or spends there money.. scientific this, placebo that, blah blah blah


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

I don't think there are any car audio competitions in Au... or none I could find anyhow.
And not too many installer, so it is helpful to have some DIY skills.

But it would be helpful to have extra ears and expertise around to steer things... bias or no bias. And using the good amps was mostly to add in bias.


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## Fltacoma (Apr 22, 2020)

You mean Grand Seiko to a Rolex? Grand Seiko every time! I went out and bought some Diamond Audio D9 components and had 300 watts going to each crossover, now that was a good sounding system to me, but like people say, to each their own!


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## abdulwq (Aug 17, 2008)

I like the line though there will be bias...
To me its just a human desire, satisfaction, curiosity or whatever you name it to try one of the best out there. A good install and tune is a base of a good sounding system and as always one can sound good in one car and same install can sound different in another. Although i am a poor guy but i do throw some$$$ on high end equipment to satisfy my own desire and curisoity how it sounds. I cant afford a Ferarri but can have a Ferrai like sound system


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Porsche said:


> give it up, there will always be bias, car audio shows isn't about the most accurate sounding cars, its an ego boost and nothing more. justification on ones product and money spent. its sad that you guys cannot just enjoy the music, this whole thread is about justifying how someone hears or spends there money.. scientific this, placebo that, blah blah blah


Porsche, I agree entirely. In my homefi, headfi, portableFi, Carfi, it's all completely about the recreation of music, and trying to get as close as possible to the sonic and emotional experience I have at a live performance. Having said that, i sold home hifi for a while, the technology really interests me, and in many cases it isn't just plug and play, you need to know something about it to get good results. I'm not interested in shows, but I do understand that someone who has built an install from the ground up might want to show it. I'm not going to deny them that pleasure if it's what they like.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

I've been down the car audio rabbit hole a number of times. What you discover is that, for all of the absolute statements made, there is evidence to the contrary every time. For example, people will say:

1. A 3-way system will sound better than a 2-way.
2. Active is better than passive.
3. Class A/B is better than D.
4. Big format tweeters sound better than small.
5. Component speakers are better than coaxial.
6. Speakers need to be installed up high for the best sound.
7. The premium line of speakers will always sound better than anything below it.

Doesn't Mark Eldridge use JL Audio C5's with class D JL Audio amps? Isn't Nick Wingate using a tiny tweeter in a coaxial configuration with a Flax midbass? Does good sound come from speakers positioned far apart when Dynaudio themselves state that the install of speakers should be as close as physically possible? Will Scott Buwalda's car sound better or worse than yours given his choice of equipment vs. your choice of equipment?

The list goes on and on.


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

This is not related to car audio sorry; however the principle applies. I have a reasonably pricey home theater system (Digital) and it sounds great. I went to my mothers house a few months ago and listened to 'O Soave Fanciulla' (a song from an opera by Puccini, a duet by Pavarotti and <I forget>) My mother has some NAD gear that was bought around the time I was born (39 years ago FWIW).

Acoustically it annihilated my system. It is also worth a reasonable amount of money. Analogue vs Digital another day. It sounded great because it wasn't crud equipment. My guitars sound better now through a Mesa Boogie Dual Rec than they did through a Marshall DSL...because it's better equipment...

Maybe I have missed the point of the last 15 pages of chat; but more money buys better quality gear.
I suspect i will cop a pile of hate for this completely logical statement.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

captainbuff said:


> This is not related to car audio sorry; however the principle applies. I have a reasonably pricey home theater system (Digital) and it sounds great. I went to my mothers house a few months ago and listened to 'O Soave Fanciulla' (a song from an opera by Puccini, a duet by Pavarotti and <I forget>) My mother has some NAD gear that was bought around the time I was born (39 years ago FWIW).
> 
> Acoustically it annihilated my system. It is also worth a reasonable amount of money. Analogue vs Digital another day. It sounded great because it wasn't crud equipment. My guitars sound better now through a Mesa Boogie Dual Rec than they did through a Marshall DSL...because it's better equipment...
> 
> ...


i agree, the issue with topics like these is people want to justify what they buy and it makes them feel better spending less. everything is a link in the chain when it comes to achieving great sound, why spend money on amps, cables, etc etc they are all equal as long as used properly, blah blah blah


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

I agree, but on the other hand, people also feel the need to justify what they bought when they bought the most expensive item on the market. Works both ways.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Porsche said:


> i agree, the issue with topics like these is people want to justify what they buy and it makes them feel better spending less. everything is a link in the chain when it comes to achieving great sound, why spend money on amps, cables, etc etc they are all equal as long as used properly, blah blah blah


I totally agree.

However it is possible theory to make poor speaker perform like better speakers.
I spent some time on my week off and found that a scheme was thinking of already has a patent.








Klippel Controlled Sound (KCS) - Controlled Sound Technology for Nonlinear Compensation of Loudspeakers


Following extensive research, Klippel GmbH has announced its new Klippel Controlled Sound (KCS) technology. This is an integrated approach that leverages the company's software and hardware tools for development, measurement and evaluation of new-generation loudspeaker systems, providing...




audioxpress.com





But as you said already, that was not really the intent of the thread... it seemed more like a jab towards people that can and do spend money on equipment that is actually the best equipment that they can afford... or justification for having equipment that is not great.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

rain27 said:


> I agree, but on the other hand, people also feel the need to justify what they bought when they bought the most expensive item on the market. Works both ways.


not with me, i do not have to justify anything with anyone. i like quality and i like nicer things, thats what I work for, to have a better life, its for me and my family, i do not need anyone to tell me i spent to much on this or that or anything else for that matter. more you spend typically the nicer you get, whether its with gear, watches, wine, cars, etc etc

99% of the folks saying cable, amps, etc do not make a difference is full of crap IMO, but to each there own, however, it gets really old seeing the same debates


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

It does get old. I think "reviews" dig up things like this

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Porsche said:


> not with me, i do not have to justify anything with anyone. i like quality and i like nicer things, thats what I work for, to have a better life, its for me and my family, i do not need anyone to tell me i spent to much on this or that or anything else for that matter. more you spend typically the nicer you get, whether its with gear, watches, wine, cars, etc etc
> 
> 99% of the folks saying cable, amps, etc do not make a difference is full of crap IMO, but to each there own, however, it gets really old seeing the same debates


I was in Canberra back in 2006 on a business trip. Went into the local shop and one of the wines did not have a price tag. It was '98 Lloyd Shiraz.
I asked the clerk how much it was and he said $19.95.
I got back to the hotel across the street and the Mrs and I ate the cheese and drank the wine.
I went on a minute long soliloquy about people thinking that one needed to spend 50$+ to get a good bottle of wine... and this $20 bottle is just as good.

The next day I went back to get the other 4 bottles. And at the cash register it came to $319.80... I said, "whoa sport, I think you got the wrong price"
He said, "a guy last night got one of these $79.95 bottles for $19.95... if he was smart he would bought five of them."
I ended up getting single $40 bottle which was sorta o'roight... but it was not like a '98 Lloyd.


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

Porsche said:


> not with me, i do not have to justify anything with anyone. i like quality and i like nicer things, thats what I work for, to have a better life, its for me and my family, i do not need anyone to tell me i spent to much on this or that or anything else for that matter. more you spend typically the nicer you get, whether its with gear, watches, wine, cars, etc etc
> 
> 99% of the folks saying cable, amps, etc do not make a difference is full of crap IMO, but to each there own, however, it gets really old seeing the same debates


You are definitely the exception and not the rule. However, you'll never convince me that subconsciously you don't urn for some degree of acceptance &/or approval. I mean, why else would a man chronologically inventory his car collection with detailed color descriptions in his signature?


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## Rainstar (May 22, 2017)

Def!ant said:


> You are definitely the exception and not the rule. However, you'll never convince me that subconsciously you don't urn for some degree of acceptance &/or approval. I mean, why else would a man chronologically inventory his car collection with detailed color descriptions in his signature?


its not about acceptance or approval, he didn't get to where he is and earn all those vehicles (each having a nicer sound system than 95% of the people on diyma) by not being organized, collected and systematic. Porsche is not a Klutz of an individual.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Def!ant said:


> You are definitely the exception and not the rule. However, you'll never convince me that subconsciously you don't urn for some degree of acceptance &/or approval. I mean, why else would a man chronologically inventory his car collection with detailed color descriptions in his signature?


if you say so, i listed my cars because several folks asked me to, this is a car audio forum and most enjoy and like cars, i know i do, next time I'm out shopping i will chk with ya for approval


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

Porsche said:


> not with me, i do not have to justify anything with anyone. i like quality and i like nicer things, thats what I work for, to have a better life, its for me and my family, i do not need anyone to tell me i spent to much on this or that or anything else for that matter. more you spend typically the nicer you get, whether its with gear, watches, wine, cars, etc etc


I will admit to dragging up a post that should have been a corpse; and to the fact that regardless it was good to see some sensible remarks followed. However just a sprinkle of humility and pragmatism might be an idea mate...just a thought, no offence. I think you missed the point that rain27 was making though...and we all justify ourselves. The only people who don't are psychopath's. Again, just a thought mate, I dragged this up so I'm not throwing stones.
Peace


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

captainbuff said:


> I will admit to dragging up a post that should have been a corpse; and to the fact that regardless it was good to see some sensible remarks followed. However just a sprinkle of humility and pragmatism might be an idea mate...just a thought, no offence. I think you missed the point that rain27 was making though...and we all justify ourselves. The only people who don't are psychopath's. Again, just a thought mate, I dragged this up so I'm not throwing stones.
> Peace


hmm, psychopath, i have been called worse, i am good with that


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

Rainstar said:


> its not about acceptance or approval, he didn't get to where he is and earn all those vehicles (each having a nicer sound system than 95% of the people on diyma) by not being organized, collected and systematic. Porsche is not a Klutz of an individual.


If a measurement of success is in the quantity of ones car collection and the rarity of its unmatched audio prowess in relation to us peasants, then he must truly be successful.



Porsche said:


> if you say so, i listed my cars because several folks asked me to, this is a car audio forum and most enjoy and like cars, i know i do, next time I'm out shopping i will chk with ya for approval


These are just mere observations made at face value by a 99%er. I just see a guy making it known to a bunch of randoms that he doesn't need their approval. My challenge to your assertion was not aimed at hurting ones delicate sensibilities. 

By & by, my automotive approval can only my obtained through 2nd generation Viper's. If you submit any 3rd or 4th gens, your application will be denied.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

For what it's worth, I've never been completely satisfied with any speakers in a car, either high-end, low-end, or anything in between, lol. On a happiness scale, my first aftermarket system will always be number 1...since I went from something that sounded like a clock radio to something loud and clear. 

I think people take these things way too seriously. I'm pretty sure when we're all on our death beds, we aren't going to be thinking about our speakers, etc.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

rain27 said:


> For what it's worth, I've never been completely satisfied with any speakers in a car, either high-end, low-end, or anything in between, lol. On a happiness scale, my first aftermarket system will always be number 1...since I went from something that sounded like a clock radio to something loud and clear.
> 
> I think people take these things way too seriously. I'm pretty sure when we're all on our death beds, we aren't going to be thinking about our speakers, etc.


I’m going to have my speakers buried with me. That’s how much I like them. 😂


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

Porsche said:


> hmm, psychopath, i have been called worse, i am good with that


WHOA! Sorry mate, did not call you a psychopath at all and my apologies if it came out that way!
Hopefully my original post did not come across as arrogant; my apologies if so.
If you are happy with your cars Porsche; cool mate  
I consider myself very lucky for the things that I have.
Defiant: what you said...I am viscerally repulsed.
Peace


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

captainbuff said:


> Defiant: what you said...I am viscerally repulsed.


Who doesn't like 2nd gen Vipers?


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## charlimoun (Jul 9, 2021)

I think it's all about personal pleasures. Someone is addicted on shoes and is ready to spend some wages on that. The same goes with music. For example, I am a professional musician. All my life goes around good music. Of course I know the price of a cheap instrument. It will never deliver you the same outcome as a new, professional, high-quality instrument. That's why I was even thinking about an audio visual hire company to install the best audio system in my house and enjoy some good music with my wife. And of course I have a car with the best system on the market, because for me, cheap sound is forbidden!


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

charlimoun said:


> I think it's all about personal pleasures. Someone is addicted on shoes and is ready to spend some wages on that. The same goes with music.


People are entitled to do whatever they want. One possibility though (using the given metaphor) is that eventually they realise they can only wear one pair of shoes at a time, no one they will ever meet will care what shoes they wear, they have a lot more fun with other things, and it is really just a waste of money. 
So they lose interest and give it away and pursue other hobbies. 
Obviously speaking of my own experience; however I have not stopped listening to music and hate it. On the contrary; I have focused a heap more time on my guitar and drum playing. I love my home audio system and have it on every day. 
I (personally) just feel that spending more than a car is worth on its audio system - when a car is the worst listening environment you could possibly create - is stupid. Just IMHO.
Each to their own.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

captainbuff said:


> People are entitled to do whatever they want. One possibility though (using the given metaphor) is that eventually they realise they can only wear one pair of shoes at a time, no one they will ever meet will care what shoes they wear, they have a lot more fun with other things, and it is really just a waste of money.
> So they lose interest and give it away and pursue other hobbies.
> Obviously speaking of my own experience; however I have not stopped listening to music and hate it. On the contrary; I have focused a heap more time on my guitar and drum playing. I love my home audio system and have it on every day.
> I (personally) just feel that spending more than a car is worth on its audio system - when a car is the worst listening environment you could possibly create - is stupid. Just IMHO.
> Each to their own.


Women care about the shoes that other women wear... Guys (like us)... Well not so much.

By the way I am in your state, and we head to Perth in the AM.


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## trunks9_us (Oct 25, 2007)

As long as you spend the proper amount of money on deadening correctly outside areas as well quiet wheels tires and even deadening the underneath of the vehicle with cld and barriers the dash firewall everything multiple layers you can’t have really that bad of a sound environment Tesla is an example I’ve heard at least. And as far as sq goes. I can’t help it if the op has bad ears or tuning or a stick in his ass.
Yes there is a fine line of diminishing returns but that goes the same for everything for example mustang - corvette - lambo - Ferrari - Bugatti so on they are all fast they all have similar things like they drive but they don’t all sound the same and the don’t all drive the same and they dont all look the same.
I’m sorry op but you must be like a racist person and I don’t mean in gender or ethnicity I mean you car more about what others have and you sound kinda bitter like a old woman. So you want to take your anger and judge others because you don’t see a benefit so if you see a benefit to jump off a bridge are you gonna do it?


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## GrM (Feb 11, 2021)

Meh. In the proper hands an $800 system will sound better than an $8,000 system with a mediocre install. Something like that anyway. But the point remains. Get what you can afford/are willing to pay for, do the research before installing to be able to get the most out of it (or find a really good shop) and who cares about the rest, that’s down to the individual and their own cost/benefit analyzes. For some people spending 10k on a system will be worth every penny for others no amount of audio upgrades will be worth the money. As long as the installation was done by someone who understands how everything works the equipment, after a certain point, doesn’t matter too much (obviously that’s a blanket statement and all such statements have exceptions but as a rule if you have a choice between spending $800 on equipment and $800 on a good installation or $1,400 on equipment $400 on a lackluster installation the former is always going to turn out better [again this is a generalization]).


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## trunks9_us (Oct 25, 2007)

GrM said:


> Meh. In the proper hands an $800 system will sound better than an $8,000 system with a mediocre install. Something like that anyway. But the point remains. Get what you can afford/are willing to pay for, do the research before installing to be able to get the most out of it (or find a really good shop) and who cares about the rest, that’s down to the individual and their own cost/benefit analyzes. For some people spending 10k on a system will be worth every penny for others no amount of audio upgrades will be worth the money. As long as the installation was done by someone who understands how everything works the equipment, after a certain point, doesn’t matter too much (obviously that’s a blanket statement and all such statements have exceptions but as a rule if you have a choice between spending $800 on equipment and $800 on a good installation or $1,400 on equipment $400 on a lackluster installation the former is always going to turn out better [again this is a generalization]).


I think in all fairness this is a good answer it I buy used expensive equipment and buying used cheap equipment is almost nonexistent because it is so cheap. Install is important yes but tuning is more important then anything in my opinion I can have expensive equipment or cheap equipment every placed correctly but if there is 0 eq 0 crossover points it’s gonna sound plain bland and nothing that spectacular or that great.


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## GrM (Feb 11, 2021)

trunks9_us said:


> Install is important yes but tuning is more important then anything in my opinion I can have expensive equipment or cheap equipment every placed correctly but if there is 0 eq 0 crossover points it’s gonna sound plain bland and nothing that spectacular or that great.


Thanks for pointing that out, you’re 100% right. Audio is kinda like a house, if the foundation, frame and/or roof aren’t in good repair it’s done for. Each is equally important but you can live with a leaking roof much longer than you can live with a crumbling foundation.


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

Holmz said:


> Women care about the shoes that other women wear... Guys (like us)... Well not so much.
> 
> By the way I am in your state, and we head to Perth in the AM.


I assume the '(like us)' statement was in relation to sexual orientation?
Hahahaha...ahhhh...now I find that statement to be somewhat witty; but I bet one of 'the acronyms' won't.

Cool mate...welcome to the part of Australia that:
1. Cash flows the rest of Australia...except Queensland.
2. Right 'now is' in the middle of 'the' most depressing 'winter' in the history 'of [my] discontent'. Fancy.
3. Despite the BA's in the media creating nonsense so they look relevant - and some mostly incompetent governmental authoritarianism - really isn't worried about any 'viruses' that might be circulating other places at present. A luxury that will not last; but is still enjoyable for the present.

Enjoy the stay...pity about the weather though.

Just FWIW; I haven't been on these forums for a long time but still get the 'weekly trending posts' email. I briefly scan through it - and just like the two gents back and forth that precedes this post - it is always the same old stuff. 98% of this site must be redundant; just different names with different cars and different gear asking/answering/arguing about the same BS.

You seem an intelligent guy; why do you bother spending time on here?


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## TrashPanda (May 21, 2021)

Wow this whole thread reads like a bashing on wealthy people. Everything is relative as it relates to consumables. One man thinks the Timex does everything it needs to do for a watch, another one gets a Richard Mille for up to an over $1 million and they both basically tell the time. 
The thing about it is: no one is telling that wealthy person not to buy that (RM) watch otherwise that company wouldn’t be able to sell it to him. Free-market is a beautiful thing.
I agree that a poorly installed expensive system could sound a lot worse than a well installed mid to low and system. But isn’t that relative to everything?


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## trunks9_us (Oct 25, 2007)

TrashPanda said:


> Wow this whole thread reads like a bashing on wealthy people. Everything is relative as it relates to consumables. One man thinks the Timex does everything it needs to do for a watch, another one gets a Richard Mille for up to an over $1 million and they both basically tell the time.
> The thing about it is: no one is telling that wealthy person not to buy that (RM) watch otherwise that company wouldn’t be able to sell it to him. Free-market is a beautiful thing.
> I agree that a poorly installed expensive system could sound a lot worse than a well installed mid to low and system. But isn’t that relative to everything?


The difference between what is right and what is wrong is based off the user listening to the advice or not though.


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## TrashPanda (May 21, 2021)

But isn’t that choice? Not forced?


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Fellas the OP is a moron and has been banned many, many times. It's nobodies business how you spend your money. You make it, you spend it the way you want! Should've let this thread die...


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## trunks9_us (Oct 25, 2007)

TrashPanda said:


> But isn’t that choice? Not forced?


 It when they complain about it. I mean yes it’s a choice but I don’t want to hear someone whine about something when they don’t have good hearing or good logic


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

captainbuff said:


> ....
> 2. Right 'now is' in the middle of 'the' most depressing 'winter' in the history 'of [my] discontent'. Fancy.
> ...


^Noice^!
Shakespeare or Steinbeck?




captainbuff said:


> I assume the '(like us)' statement was in relation to sexual orientation?
> Hahahaha...ahhhh...now I find that statement to be somewhat witty; but I bet one of 'the acronyms' won't.
> ...


If the shoe fits...




captainbuff said:


> ...
> You seem an intelligent guy; why do you bother spending time on here?


I am basically lazy, and I like to regurgitate the same arguments and continually polish them up.
Plus It gives my life purpose between the household chores.

But I need to make a couple of doors. Probably 3 out of jarrah... But two are a French door set up.
I may be able to sneak some subwoofer cabinets into the process.

Also need a table to put the new flat screen tele on, which will probably be jarrah as well.
I might try making some bass traps while I am at it.


----------



## kattan_tha_man (Feb 2, 2021)

Kountz said:


> I've noticed with a lot of SQ snobs in the car audio industry they think they can't get a high quality sound unless they have Misconi or Sifoni amplifiers with focal Utopia or morel elate mids to achieve audio Nirvana. This is what I don't get... With real high-end lossless audio I don't give a damn if you have Infinity kappa components from the mid-90s... those songs will sound like the best you've ever heard.
> 
> My system right now is considered mid-grade(stereo integrity tm65 lll mids, SB acoustic sb29 tweeters, Zapco STX 6 channel SQ, Memphis audio PRX 1500 .1, stereo integrity rm15, JL audio twk 88, Sony Double-Din DX 7000) the gains aren't set correctly time alignment is off I don't have pure silver RCA cables definitely not a very good tune and bands like Nils Lofgren sound like you're in the damn recording studio. I can hear the pick stroke across the strings and and sucking the spit across the mic. with my bad tuning and mid grade level speakers and I can experience that type of sound quality. why in the hell would you spend $4,000 on an amplifier and $14,000 on a component set from Focal?
> 
> ...


If I had the money I would do an experiment. I would put a stereo system in a car using only brands like Pyle, Boss, Pyramid, Planet Audio, etc. I would do a perfect install and see really how bad or good these speakers are. I would love to play it for other people and not tell them it's cheap equipment.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

kattan_tha_man said:


> If I had the money I would do an experiment. I would put a stereo system in a car using only brands like Pyle, Boss, Pyramid, Planet Audio, etc. I would do a perfect install and see really how bad or good these speakers are. I would love to play it for other people and not tell them it's cheap equipment.


Start saving up.


----------



## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

captainbuff said:


> People are entitled to do whatever they want. One possibility though (using the given metaphor) is that eventually they realise they can only wear one pair of shoes at a time, no one they will ever meet will care what shoes they wear, they have a lot more fun with other things, and it is really just a waste of money.
> So they lose interest and give it away and pursue other hobbies.
> Obviously speaking of my own experience; however I have not stopped listening to music and hate it. On the contrary; I have focused a heap more time on my guitar and drum playing. I love my home audio system and have it on every day.
> I (personally) just feel that spending more than a car is worth on its audio system - when a car is the worst listening environment you could possibly create - is stupid. Just IMHO.
> Each to their own.


Hey, hey, now! $1500 car owner here! $3500+ audio system! Really though, I've put quite a bit of money into the actual car since I bought it, so it's more like a $10k car now.


----------



## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

kattan_tha_man said:


> If I had the money I would do an experiment. I would put a stereo system in a car using only brands like Pyle, Boss, Pyramid, Planet Audio, etc. I would do a perfect install and see really how bad or good these speakers are. I would love to play it for other people and not tell them it's cheap equipment.


Sometimes that ultra cheap stuff can sound really good.


----------



## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

kattan_tha_man said:


> If I had the money I would do an experiment. I would put a stereo system in a car using only brands like Pyle, Boss, Pyramid, Planet Audio, etc. I would do a perfect install and see really how bad or good these speakers are. I would love to play it for other people and not tell them it's cheap equipment.


I'm sure this has been done a million times. Possibly not in terms of putting it to a group of people and testing what their reactions are though?
I have done a bargain LOC-low/mid range Pioneer 4 channel Amp-OK (best model they offered at the time anyway) Polk front splits-whatever brand 3 way rears in a dual cab Hilux. Dunno if Americans know what that is...it's a 4WD five seater cabin with a tray on the back. Anyway including some Dynamat to the doors it blew me away for how good it sounded. Delete time for the install (did it for a mate and swapped some handyman tools for the labour) and I don't think he spent more than $7-800 Aussie. That would be around $3-400 USD. The fact the front splits were fairly decent, the doors were Dynamat'ed and the rears were pretty bass friendly really made it. Not pocket change. but not selling a kidney either.



DaveG said:


> Fellas the OP is a moron and has been banned many, many times. It's nobodies business how you spend your money. You make it, you spend it the way you want! Should've let this thread die...


Yeah he was a tosser even though I never knew him; but I think a reasonable debate about high end vs low end and why etc. is a valid topic.


----------



## kattan_tha_man (Feb 2, 2021)

captainbuff said:


> I'm sure this has been done a million times. Possibly not in terms of putting it to a group of people and testing what their reactions are though?
> I have done a bargain LOC-low/mid range Pioneer 4 channel Amp-OK (best model they offered at the time anyway) Polk front splits-whatever brand 3 way rears in a dual cab Hilux. Dunno if Americans know what that is...it's a 4WD five seater cabin with a tray on the back. Anyway including some Dynamat to the doors it blew me away for how good it sounded. Delete time for the install (did it for a mate and swapped some handyman tools for the labour) and I don't think he spent more than $7-800 Aussie. That would be around $3-400 USD. The fact the front splits were fairly decent, the doors were Dynamat'ed and the rears were pretty bass friendly really made it. Not pocket change. but not selling a kidney either.
> 
> 
> ...


The problem I have is everyone seems to wanna take a stab at my cheaper equipment. Just because I'm not running $5000 in gear doesn't mean I should be taken less seriously and looked down upon.


----------



## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

Holmz said:


> ^Noice^!
> Shakespeare or Steinbeck?


Shakespeare; from Richard III 
Did not know of Steinbeck so gave him a google and was immediately drawn to this 'famous quote' of his. I may be thinking of current world circumstances atm...
_A sad soul can kill you quicker than a germ._ 



Holmz said:


> If the shoe fits...


I have 4-5 pairs of Vans in varying degrees of deterioration, a pair of steel cap boots and some dress shoes.
Definitely '(like us)'



Holmz said:


> I am basically lazy, and I like to regurgitate the same arguments and continually polish them up.
> Plus It gives my life purpose between the household chores.
> 
> But I need to make a couple of doors. Probably 3 out of jarrah... But two are a French door set up.
> ...


Fair enough...do you think you will ever reach the elusive 'irrefutably correct car audio explanation'? Sort of like the classical physics/quantum mechanics 'Grand Theory of Everything' or whatever you want to call it...? 

I'm going to go with no...simply because physics is a certain way and that is it. It is predictable (Chaos Theory is one exception; there are no doubt others but I'm not that smart) and any arguments are amongst the top line super smart theoretical physicists in regard to the latest formulae.

Car audio is a pile of guys with opinions.

Goddam...Jarrah isn't going to be cheap! Store bought 'door blanks' surely. With the table finding a suitable piece and making it fit as you want would be achievable...but French Doors from Jarrah is crazy. I've never worked with Jarrah but I would be fascinated how fast you would go through drill bits and router bits etc....stuff is very hard.

Sub cabinets from Jarrah would be cool. Bass Traps from Jarrah sounds interesting; demo pics would be cool as I have no idea what they would look like...?

Tomorrow some sunny weather but bloody cold; after that rain for a week or something. Hope you have an indoor workshop!


----------



## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

kattan_tha_man said:


> The problem I have is everyone seems to wanna take a stab at my cheaper equipment. Just because I'm not running $5000 in gear doesn't mean I should be taken less seriously and looked down upon.


Has anyone outwardly said stuff along those lines here?
You're going to get a holes now and then - welcome to forums on a topic that is essentially opinion driven - however I think most guys were in the position of having their first car but not much spare dosh back in the day. 
The only caveat I could give is that lower end equipment often doesn't have the bells and whistles of better equipment. You will not be able to do some of the things that a lot of guys take for granted...if guys state that then they aren't looking down on you...they're just saying it as it is.
Outright jabs at anyone's gear shouldn't happen. As soon as you get arrogant about it though: expect it to start up.
FML I have better things to do than be on this forum. 'Taking jabs at guys with cheaper equipment'...FFS I am 40, not 14.


----------



## kattan_tha_man (Feb 2, 2021)

captainbuff said:


> Has anyone outwardly said stuff along those lines here?
> You're going to get a holes now and then - welcome to forums on a topic that is essentially opinion driven - however I think most guys were in the position of having their first car but not much spare dosh back in the day.
> The only caveat I could give is that lower end equipment often doesn't have the bells and whistles of better equipment. You will not be able to do some of the things that a lot of guys take for granted...if guys state that then they aren't looking down on you...they're just saying it as it is.
> Outright jabs at anyone's gear shouldn't happen. As soon as you get arrogant about it though: expect it to start up.
> FML I have better things to do than be on this forum. 'Taking jabs at guys with cheaper equipment'...FFS I am 40, not 14.


I have been told as an answer to a question "buy better gear." I found a gem of an amplifier. A 1999 Kenwood Excelon KAC-X501F. 75 watts x4 and amazingly clean sound. Sold for 750 I got it for 125. Someone told me to quit trying to use my grandpa's old amplifier. I get little jabs all the time about me using Rockville equipment. "Oh that **** is just as bad pyle, pyramid, and blaupunkt. It's not their amps make their advertised power.

I know, there's always assholes.\

Because of this I stay pretty tight lipped about my equipment. Got tired of hearing buy better ****.

I'm 37 years old now. I'm too old to be dropping thousands on audio equipment.

If I can buy budget and be happy, good.


----------



## kattan_tha_man (Feb 2, 2021)

kattan_tha_man said:


> I have been told as an answer to a question "buy better gear." I found a gem of an amplifier. A 1999 Kenwood Excelon KAC-X501F. 75 watts x4 and amazingly clean sound. Sold for 750 I got it for 125. Someone told me to quit trying to use my grandpa's old amplifier. I get little jabs all the time about me using Rockville equipment. "Oh that **** is just as bad pyle, pyramid, and blaupunkt. It's not their amps make their advertised power.
> 
> I know, there's always assholes.\
> 
> ...


The only difference between my 23 year old class a/b amp and newer ones is the wire inputs. I'm stioll using screws and spade terminals.

I don't think there has been any major technical advancments in class a/b amps in the last 25 years. If you know of one please tell me, I would be curious.


----------



## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

kattan_tha_man said:


> Sold for 750 I got it for 125. Someone told me to quit trying to use my grandpa's old amplifier. I get little jabs all the time about me using Rockville equipment. "Oh that **** is just as bad pyle, pyramid, and blaupunkt. It's not their amps make their advertised power.
> 
> I know, there's always assholes.\
> 
> ...


I will be straight honest that whoever said that Rockville is rubbish and so are those other brands is only saying the truth. They are the bottom of the market. I can understand that it may be frustrating...man I have around $10k in the back of my WRX and I still read some posts and think 'you sound like a rich wanker posing'.

Anyway the secondhand market is your best friend for car audio on a budget. Do not buy anything new if possible. You DEFINITELY don't have to drop thousands to have a system that will give good sound and get loud as well; especially because you are in the US. In Australia everything is double the cost.

Overall the biggest tip I would give is to get the hell off these forums. Mate you're close to the same age as me; I'm sure you have other hobbies that you pursue. If you are never going to get a fancy DSP or EQ equipment then you don't need to be here. Put whatever gear in that works for you; follow a few YouTube vids on install if you're not sure; and then f*** off and do the stuff you like doing. I have $20k in my home theater and much more than that in my drum/guitar/bass studio...I'm not wasting time around here getting abused by some other guys opinion.


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

who cares, its your money to spend however you want, thats what you work for


----------



## kattan_tha_man (Feb 2, 2021)

captainbuff said:


> I will be straight honest that whoever said that Rockville is rubbish and so are those other brands is only saying the truth. They are the bottom of the market. I can understand that it may be frustrating...man I have around $10k in the back of my WRX and I still read some posts and think 'you sound like a rich wanker posing'.
> 
> Anyway the secondhand market is your best friend for car audio on a budget. Do not buy anything new if possible. You DEFINITELY don't have to drop thousands to have a system that will give good sound and get loud as well; especially because you are in the US. In Australia everything is double the cost.
> 
> Overall the biggest tip I would give is to get the hell off these forums. Mate you're close to the same age as me; I'm sure you have other hobbies that you pursue. If you are never going to get a fancy DSP or EQ equipment then you don't need to be here. Put whatever gear in that works for you; follow a few YouTube vids on install if you're not sure; and then f*** off and do the stuff you like doing. I have $20k in my home theater and much more than that in my drum/guitar/bass studio...I'm not wasting time around here getting abused by some other guys opinion.


The Rockville amps were the cheapest amps that I saw independently dynoed and put out their claimed power


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Here's a guy that placed 1st in an emma show with dayton speakers and DSP. He used soundID reference 4 I think? I guess he measured and then pushed out a profile that could be used in his carpc through winamp. There's a schematic...nothing special hardware wise









Car audio gurus schooled by DSP - Sonarworks Blog


Our CEO Helmuts just came back from a well-deserved vacation and despite our direct orders to get a good rest, he’s been very busy! We all knew that he’s a car audio nut, but now it’s no secret to even the best car audio gurus of Northern Europe. He took his 2007 Saab 9-3 to…




www.sonarworks.com





They have a soundID app for apple and android phones too. I like it


----------



## LimpCroissaint (May 18, 2021)

kattan_tha_man said:


> I have been told as an answer to a question "buy better gear." I found a gem of an amplifier. A 1999 Kenwood Excelon KAC-X501F. 75 watts x4 and amazingly clean sound. Sold for 750 I got it for 125. Someone told me to quit trying to use my grandpa's old amplifier. I get little jabs all the time about me using Rockville equipment. "Oh that **** is just as bad pyle, pyramid, and blaupunkt. It's not their amps make their advertised power.
> 
> I know, there's always assholes.\
> 
> ...


Bro, I just got your Kenwood amp's brother, the Excelon KAC-X401M! I picked it up this week combined with a first gen Alpine Type R 12 for 120 combined! I haven't hooked it up yet because I'm working on my car this weekend but man.. That thing has got some crazy features! Mines the mono amp to your multichannel. It's rated 600w rms x2 but I've seen where people have changed the fuses to slightly higher and run it down to 1.3 ohm. (Exclaimer: I know this is a HUGE no no in 99% of cases but this amp is a special case. A Kenwood rep confirmed this).

Do you have any other info on these amps? I've done some research and read the manual yesterday from Crutchfields product page. I'm super stoked to get it installed. I've never seen such a thich aluminum heatsink. He wanted 160 but I asked him if the "door" or slide still automatically opens and he said he didn't think so after thinking about it a couple days and offered a discount. I don't mind that it doesn't automatically open.


----------



## TrashPanda (May 21, 2021)

captainbuff said:


> I will be straight honest that whoever said that Rockville is rubbish and so are those other brands is only saying the truth. They are the bottom of the market. I can understand that it may be frustrating...man I have around $10k in the back of my WRX and I still read some posts and think 'you sound like a rich wanker posing'.
> 
> Anyway the secondhand market is your best friend for car audio on a budget. Do not buy anything new if possible. You DEFINITELY don't have to drop thousands to have a system that will give good sound and get loud as well; especially because you are in the US. In Australia everything is double the cost.
> 
> Overall the biggest tip I would give is to get the hell off these forums. Mate you're close to the same age as me; I'm sure you have other hobbies that you pursue. If you are never going to get a fancy DSP or EQ equipment then you don't need to be here. Put whatever gear in that works for you; follow a few YouTube vids on install if you're not sure; and then f*** off and do the stuff you like doing. I have $20k in my home theater and much more than that in my drum/guitar/bass studio...I'm not wasting time around here getting abused by some other guys opinion.


Wow. Why would you run someone off for buying value items. Did you always spend $20k on your HT or $10k on your car system? Nope. You graduated your income as you got older and therefore increased your budget. 
I don’t see any issue with someone finding value in bottom end brands. And if he opens up for critique then great, that is what free speech and the forums (to a lesser extent) are for. Need to have thick skin yea, but telling someone to foff because of the differing view is just being a jerk. 

And good for you and your expensive stuff. That means you appreciate the level up over the cheapest items. But $20k on HT is pretty much just above entry level. IMO.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

captainbuff said:


> ...
> 
> 
> Fair enough...do you think you will ever reach the elusive 'irrefutably correct car audio explanation'? Sort of like the classical physics/quantum mechanics 'Grand Theory of Everything' or whatever you want to call it...?
> ...


Yeah you could put an orchestra in front of someone and they would tell you their mosconi or helix sounds more realistic.




captainbuff said:


> ...
> Goddam...Jarrah isn't going to be cheap! Store bought 'door blanks' surely. With the table finding a suitable piece and making it fit as you want would be achievable...but French Doors from Jarrah is crazy. I've never worked with Jarrah but I would be fascinated how fast you would go through drill bits and router bits etc....stuff is very hard.
> 
> Sub cabinets from Jarrah would be cool. Bass Traps from Jarrah sounds interesting; demo pics would be cool as I have no idea what they would look like...?
> ...


I have 2x 5M long slabs of myrtle that were $600 each 15 years ago.

There is a saw mill 20km away that does Jarrah, so the door would be rails/stlies or something like that with tenons.
There is also Jarrah veneered MDF and one can biscuit jarrah onto the edges, for say speaker boxes.
and I have a small shed.

I am on the porch overlooking the Swan (Ithink) in North Freo. temps feel good to me. And Ash won the tennis last night.


----------



## peace2peep (Nov 15, 2008)

Here's the answer: "cuz I like it!" Wow! 17 pages of THIS....? Let's go back to talking about our passions and encouraging one another...this is dumb!


----------



## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

some utter BS from OP....


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

LBaudio said:


> some utter BS from OP....


Was that the OP with the “phonetically” inspired user name?


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

kattan_tha_man said:


> The problem I have is everyone seems to wanna take a stab at my cheaper equipment. Just because I'm not running $5000 in gear doesn't mean I should be taken less seriously and looked down upon.


^Correct^ 🙏

But... one cannot “lord it over” others without some “rare as rocking horse $hit” gear.
With that sort of gear, even if one has no idea what they are doing, they still retain some credibility...


----------



## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

everybody buy equipment that he want be it cheapper or super expensive. I dont judge anybody by what they own.....
And when somebody with cheaper equipment understands its limits, everything is OK. The one that need to buy top of the line equipment to be recognized as somebody who know "****",..well it is better for him to find some other hobby.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

In seriousness, some people do like to have nice equipment. And they may have had hankering for some special gear for a while, and can now afford it.

Some emotional reasons can be as valid as objective reasons.


----------



## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

Holmz said:


> Yeah you could put an orchestra in front of someone and they would tell you their mosconi or helix sounds more realistic.


Nicely worded. 'More realistic' is an impossibility in that situation. 'Better'...well I'm sure someone would try to claim it.
I was privileged enough to hear Pavarotti when he came to Australia (RIP). Did he sound better in person than on a top notch stereo system...? Sounded pretty good; even from my 'C Class' seats  (and they were still $180 each for mum and myself!). You can't create an experience like that through a bloody stereo.



Holmz said:


> I have 2x 5M long slabs of myrtle that were $600 each 15 years ago.
> 
> There is a saw mill 20km away that does Jarrah, so the door would be rails/stlies or something like that with tenons.
> There is also Jarrah veneered MDF and one can biscuit jarrah onto the edges, for say speaker boxes.
> ...


Well if you are in Perth/Freo and you are overlooking a river then it is the Swan!

$600 each 15 years ago. I believe they would be worth a fait bit more than that now!
Had to Google some of those construction terms because woodwork was many years ago (I studied how to make buildings from wood...not so much doors!). Sounds like the type of thing that would be a shipload of fun. Main shower is redone and I'm always finding stuff to redo around the house...car sits in the garage with a layer of dust on it...hasn't been driven in months because Covid means there's nothing to do. Suits me fine.


----------



## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

peace2peep said:


> Let's go back to talking about our passions and encouraging one another...this is dumb!


Because forums are filled with positive people encouraging others.
RIght.


----------



## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

captainbuff said:


> Because forums are filled with positive people encouraging others.
> RIght.


Well they are voluntary.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

captainbuff said:


> ...
> Well if you are in Perth/Freo and you are overlooking a river then it is the Swan!
> ...


In the lyrics of the “Hilltop Hoods” song “Dumb Enough”...



> ...
> Geez that's good Suffa, what is it? It's a swan,
> ...


----------



## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

why would somebody buy a Bugatti or Ferrari or some other high performance car, since everybody can travel just fine with KIA or FORD,....maybe because high performance cars have much better acceleration, deceleration, higher top speed, higher torque,..... but if you havent experience performance of high performance car you may be just fine with KIA or Ford.....


----------



## trunks9_us (Oct 25, 2007)

kattan_tha_man said:


> The problem I have is everyone seems to wanna take a stab at my cheaper equipment. Just because I'm not running $5000 in gear doesn't mean I should be taken less seriously and looked down upon.


To each his own with me buying used prices on everything but deadening I’ve already put in 10k and doing a lot of the work myself. But my system will probably end around 20k or more lithium batteries walled sub pure silver rcas etc etc going all out balls to the walls and ain’t no one need to tell me to spend money else where because it already has been else where and more.


----------



## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

At least 95% of people would be more than happy with a well installed and properly tuned system using affordable equipment, even if they want to use generally high end options. Only obsessives chase the tail end of the ROI bell curve where you pay $1K for 1% improvements with ultra pricey gear that really has a much greater psychoacoustic effect than objectively measured results. If you have the money to spare it truly does increase your enjoyment of the system over time so I've found the financial hit more than worth all the satisfied listening experiences.


----------



## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

DaveG said:


> Well they are voluntary.


And what are you volunteering...?
Get my drift yet


----------



## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

Catalyx said:


> At least 95% of people would be more than happy with a well installed and properly tuned system using affordable equipment, even if they want to use generally high end options. Only obsessives chase the tail end of the ROI bell curve where you pay $1K for 1% improvements with ultra pricey gear that really has a much greater psychoacoustic effect than objectively measured results. If you have the money to spare it truly does increase your enjoyment of the system over time so I've found the financial hit more than worth all the satisfied listening experiences.


At least 95% of people wouldn't know good sound if it bit them in the ass.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

captainbuff said:


> At least 95% of people wouldn't know good sound if it bit them in the ass.


Even the remaining 5% has confirmation bias.


----------



## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

Holmz said:


> Even the remaining 5% has confirmation bias.


I didn't say the 5% were any better at listening, only that they wouldn't be happy with affordable equipment!


----------



## TrashPanda (May 21, 2021)

My mojos bit my ass today.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Catalyx said:


> I didn't say the 5% were any better at listening, only that they wouldn't be happy with affordable equipment!


I was replying to @captainbuff as it seemed to answer this question:



captainbuff said:


> ...
> Get my drift yet


----------



## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

TrashPanda said:


> My mojos bit my ass today.


Oh no, what happened?


----------



## TrashPanda (May 21, 2021)

clange2485 said:


> Oh no, what happened?


In a good way ..


----------



## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

Epic! I was banned for trashing someone!
On this s**thole I take that as a compliment.
Who here has had their Covid19 Jabs just by the way....?
Blahahaha....yeah I'm baiting. Also DILLIGAF.


----------



## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Meh…I like what I like and that’s what I buy. No need for justification beyond that.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

UNBROKEN said:


> Meh…I like what I like and that’s what I buy. No need for justification beyond that.


But are you actually ever going to buy anything for the minivan? 

I take it back... I just sub'd to your new build thread.


----------



## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

rton20s said:


> But are you actually ever going to buy anything for the minivan?
> 
> I take it back... I just sub'd to your new build thread.


I bought EVERYTHING! lol


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

UNBROKEN said:


> I bought EVERYTHING! lol


I saw. And now you're further along than I am.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

captainbuff said:


> Epic! I was banned for trashing someone!
> On this s**thole I take that as a compliment.
> Who here has had their Covid19 Jabs just by the way....?
> Blahahaha....yeah I'm baiting. Also DILLIGAF.


Yeah we got jabbed back in May.
I has a DILLIGAF look about the side effects.

We are down in the SW this week by the way.


----------



## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

Got my jabs done to man. Second one made me as crook as a dog; but like my doc said. 'If it made you crook like that then imagine what the real thing would be like!'. Can't refute that logic.

Yo for all you Americans out there (I know this place is essentially American); I just been on YouTube.
I been watching Obama giving 'Medals of Honour' (Honor...yeah this be America) to men who surrendered their lives but made it out. Dude jumped on a grenade. Had 40 surgeries and has scars all over his face; brother has a wikipedia page.

So I just wondering about you conspiracy theorists and haters and people that infest this ship hole with stank. You voted a textbook narcissist as your 'Chancellor', then you voted a dementia laden limp d**k into office.

What became of America? You had the opportunity to lead the world and be a shining light. Instead...as the lyrics of the song 'Mr Money' by Pain of Salvation say...'for those who represent the token face of democracy'...that is what you became. 

You have no honour. You have no respect. The day will come when you will conspire against my beliefs and my brothers and sisters. I hope - on my fathers grave - that I have the ballsack to take the bullet you will point at me.

'No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf os his friends.' John 15:13.

I am not Jesus, I am a mortal man...and a failure at even that.

However...when you weak as puss Americans come against my brothers and sisters....

...I am flawed and compromised mentally. You best hope 'The Captain' does not take over my body. No one has ever stopped him. My name is Josh. His name is 'The Captain'. I pity the fool that faces him. When the time comes I will surrender myself to whatever force takes my body at that time. It is called 'DID'.

You wistless puppet Americans, led by the Dark Lord. You do not know even what you despise. However...the 'Edenic Cherub' is no match for Michael; the ArchAngel. On the Last Day we will see who cried 'Lord, Lord...did we not prophesy in your name....I will declare to them 'I never knew you! Get away from me you workers of lawlessness!'.

Mark these words. The day is coming, and his 'Judgement cometh; and that right soon.' On my fathers grave I hope that I have the balls to face you lawless Americans.

'No peace in our time'.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

captainbuff said:


> Got my jabs done to man. Second one made me as crook as a dog; but like my doc said. 'If it made you crook like that then imagine what the real thing would be like!'. Can't refute that logic.
> 
> Yo for all you Americans out there (I know this place is essentially American); I just been on YouTube.
> I been watching Obama giving 'Medals of Honour' (Honor...yeah this be America) to men who surrendered their lives but made it out. Dude jumped on a grenade. Had 40 surgeries and has scars all over his face; brother has a wikipedia page.
> ...


Wow... that’s the best soliloquy I have seen in quite a while.
(I am glad there were no side effects.)


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

Holmz said:


> Wow... that’s the best soliloquy I have seen in quite a while.
> (I am glad there were no side effects.)


I do not believe that was a soliloquy? I was indeed expressing my own feelings verbally (or written) to an audience; but I feirstly do not believe the audience cares, and secondly I was aggressive ( me?....never...) in an event that is not a 'play'. This is real life. Millions are dead. Millions will follow...on the Last Day. I am aware you do not believe as I do and I respect that.

As for side effects...I spent three days in bed after my second covid19 jab. I could not move to take a p1$$. My arm felt like a sledgehammer had hit me for a week. I had to beg my mother (because I'm only 41) to come and take my washing and give me some food to eat. It was two weeks before I was 'OK'. 

Conspiracy theories all day long; what my doc said was true. I am fit and [reasonably!] young, but if the jab did that to me then I would likely be in a body bag if i hadn't had the vaccinations and caught the proper Covid19. I really don't enjoy life that much..but if I have to go then I do not want to be gasping for my last breath as I go.

A big bottle of morphine, I love you mum, peace to my friends and my beliefs, and goodbye. These Americans talk smack and take it like a b1Tch.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

I love me some good incoherent drivel first thing in the morning.


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

UNBROKEN said:


> I love me some good incoherent drivel first thing in the morning.


Lest we forget.
Your peasant maggot.
'America the Brave'
'America the Slave'.
Try again little boy.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

captainbuff said:


> Lest we forget.
> Your peasant maggot.
> 'America the Brave'
> 'America the Slave'.
> Try again little boy.


I would ask if your parents had any kids that lived…but I already know the answer. My condolences to them.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

UNBROKEN said:


> I would ask if your parents had any kids that lived…but I already know the answer. My condolences to them.


Thread has apparently been edited but was dude saying what it appeared he was saying or am I reading into it?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DaveG said:


> Thread has apparently been edited but was dude saying what it appeared he was saying or am I reading into it?


It seems like a descant of sorts.

Maybe he means “live” in terms of “freedom” ?


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

CONGRATS: You guys have successfully managed to degrade this thread...

LOCKED...


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