# 1982 Porsche 911, first build. simple system



## Wesayso

After 4 years of driving this car (almost daily) I figured it should be worth the effort to upgrade the audio system.
Till now I had an old Kenwood HU with cd changer (10 disks) connected to 2 door speakers (I don't even know what make those are, haven't looked yet :surprised

The plans are:

Pioneer P88RS II HU 
JBL GTO 504 Amp (2x 55 for fronts, 1x 140 for sub)
Pioneer TS-E170Ci component set in the doors
JBL GTO 804 sub in the front trunk

The plan is to put the sub in the trunk space known as the smugglers box. The reason for this is the car gets used from time to time as a family car with my girlfriend and son riding with me. So I can't give up space in the cabin to gain some bass.
On the Porsche forum I visit (pelicanparts) I had seen the use of the smugglers box for a sub so I figured why not try it. It's in the front and it's unused space so it's worth a try...

Lets move on to the build. First let me introduce the car, an '82 911 SC:









Moving on to the trunk of the car we find this:








The smugglers box I mentioned. I think in most american models you'd find some airco stuff in there but mine is almost completely empty.

So I went to work with cardboard templates and rulers and started hacking up some MDF. After trying to fit 2 pieces for front and rear of the sub box made of 3/4" MDF I discovered the JBL sub wouldn't fit between them. So back to the drawing board. Although not optimal I choose to go with 1/2" MDF for front and back and the rest with the thicker stuff. Here's what I came up with:









I put in a brace to strengthen the weaker MDF parts...








On the baffle I used t-nuts to mount the 804. I've drawn the sub in a 3D program to figure out the size of this thing. JBL says the 804 needs about 8.5 liter. My calculations/drawing gave me a little over 9 liter after bracing the box. Not bad I think?

It's a tight but good fit:









That's as far as I am right now. The box is in paint and I'll report back when I complete the next step(s).


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## capnxtreme

Awesome!

One of my dream cars. I have always wondered why folks don't put subs up front like that. I guess they actually do.


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## helosquid

You should be pretty happy with that sub...


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## ryan s

That garage...oh my :surprised:

How much sound makes it through the front firewall? Or does the "smugglers box" kinda vent into the cabin?


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## Mless5

Seks on wheels... wheels are seks too.


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## FLYONWALL9

Finally, another 911. Maybe I can feed off your install and get
some stuff done also.... 

I've only seen the sub fired into the smugglers box never done
like this. I'm really interested in your review once finished.

Welcome to the forum


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## Wesayso

Thanks for all the reply's and the welcome...

As far as sound comming into the cabin? I don't know how well that works yet. But I've seen similar setups that claim to work well. Those threads inspired me to try this. Let me trow in the links to show their solution:

Sub mounted in spare wheel well
and
Sub in smugglers box

However that last one uses the smugglers box as a chaimber by sealing part of it off. The inner wall of the smugglers box can be seen in the cabin. Mine is a sealed box thus the sound will have to travel trough the fire wall. But there are many ways for the sound to enter the cabin for example trough the heating system pipes etc.

So my setup will be different yet similar to the first one sound wise. I can't wait to try but it will be a while before I have sound. I don't have time in the comming week to continue.
The next step is to mount the amp under the passenger seat.

I haven't made up my mind yet about sound deadening. The doors are done pretty good from the factory but the trunk lid has none. I think it will need at least a bit of vibration dampening. Time will tell.


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## Wesayso

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Finally, another 911. Maybe I can feed off your install and get
> some stuff done also....



I've read your build log and feel humble in comparison. Quite the install you've got planned! There's at least another 911 on this forum, i recognised his pictures from the pelican parts forum. I think he's going by the handle nineball:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/dumb-question-forum/86045-fiberglass-box-milkshake-deadener.html#post1091600


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## remeolb

Gorgeous car!


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## Complacent_One

Looks great.

If my mind serves me correctly, we built a pretty sweet setup back in the 90's for an '87 935 that used a Nak SP-1010 in a free-air bandpass config. The enclosure set over the left front wheel well in the baggage area using the trunk as the large sealed section and a 3 in flexible port that ran from a 1 cuft enclosure through the firewall and porting into the cabin under the clutch or brake pedal. It was not a monster, but would play the low end like crazy. Looked effin cool to boot!!


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## ryan s

Wesayso said:


> Thanks for all the reply's and the welcome...
> 
> As far as sound comming into the cabin? I don't know how well that works yet. But I've seen similar setups that claim to work well. Those threads inspired me to try this. Let me trow in the links to show their solution:
> 
> Sub mounted in spare wheel well
> and
> Sub in smugglers box
> 
> However that last one uses the smugglers box as a chaimber by sealing part of it off. The inner wall of the smugglers box can be seen in the cabin. Mine is a sealed box thus the sound will have to travel trough the fire wall. But there are many ways for the sound to enter the cabin for example trough the heating system pipes etc.
> 
> So my setup will be different yet similar to the first one sound wise. I can't wait to try but it will be a while before I have sound. I don't have time in the comming week to continue.
> The next step is to mount the amp under the passenger seat.
> 
> I haven't made up my mind yet about sound deadening. The doors are done pretty good from the factory but the trunk lid has none. I think it will need at least a bit of vibration dampening. Time will tell.





Complacent_One said:


> Looks great.
> 
> If my mind serves me correctly, we built a pretty sweet setup back in the 90's for an '87 935 that used a Nak SP-1010 in a free-air bandpass config. The enclosure set over the left front wheel well in the baggage area using the trunk as the large sealed section and a 3 in flexible port that ran from a 1 cuft enclosure through the firewall and porting into the cabin under the clutch or brake pedal. It was not a monster, but would play the low end like crazy. Looked effin cool to boot!!


Hmmm...wonder if an infinite baffle sub could be installed in that way. Have the magnet hang down into the space and use the trunk as the box. You'd just have to reverse the polarity on the sub.

I want one of these 911s someday and I'm a fan of IB so...


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## buddhaV6

your garage looks cleaner than my house...

awesome car, looking forward to your install


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## Complacent_One

ryan s said:


> Hmmm...wonder if an infinite baffle sub could be installed in that way. Have the magnet hang down into the space and use the trunk as the box. You'd just have to reverse the polarity on the sub.
> 
> I want one of these 911s someday and I'm a fan of IB so...


Not really a need to reverse the polarity on the sub, unless after testing it is deemed necessary. But that is essentially what was done with the Porsche we did back in the day, and now that I think of it...it may have been the Nakamichi 8". But the magnet did hang into the trunk with the cone facing into the box..


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## Wesayso

I'm glad I named the thread "simple system" 
I'm going to stick to the sealed box for now (lol)


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## Wesayso

buddhaV6 said:


> your garage looks cleaner than my house...
> 
> awesome car, looking forward to your install


Here's proof my garage doesn't always look that clean


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## tintbox

Right on. Looks good.


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## Wesayso

*time for an update*

I've been away on holliday for a week so it's high time to get going again. The car has to be back on the road next week.

Here's the sub box painted and ready for install:









Next step, sub in the car...









and the carpet back in place:









On to mounting the pioneers in the door. First step was making a new mounting baffle, lucky for me someone on the pelican boards had a ready to cut sketch so I used that as template.










Here's the empty door with the standard cutout from factory:









This is what I pulled out of the door, no wonder it didn't sound that great anymore. Half of the time the speaker would rattle against the door card. The cutout in the door card was a lot smaller than the speaker. The speaker itself was attatched with 2 screws.








They are Pioneer TS-1745 17cm speakers (35 Watt RMS). I had expected to find some old blaupunkt 5 1/4" speakers as it came from the factory (I think).

In with the new baffle:









And with the door card back in place:









Too bad I have to pull it back out again to paint the baffles 
Tomorrow I hope to make some real progress...
I plan to mount the tweeters off axis somewhere between the window switches (on top right) and the 6.5" driver. The crossover will be mounted
in a (sealed) compartment below the door handle. You can see the shapes a little to the left of the driver. I still need to pull new wires, add some vibration dampening, there's none behind the speaker so I'll add a tile and on top of that some kind of diffuser pad. Tried to order it tonight from the UK but that failed, hopefully I'll get the order going tomorrow.

Till next time...

Wesayso


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## Installer4life

Looking good. I remember Porsche's factory crossover in that exact location. Pretty unusual location at that time....


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## Wesayso

Thanks! You're right, Porsche mounted it there so it seemed the obvious choise.
I'll concider running an extra pair of wires to be able to go active with this setup later on if I want to.


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## howlndog

Great build - thanks for sharing!

As a fellow p-car owner and Pelican I was wondering if you might share your smugglers box enclosure dimensions... as I'm working on a similar set-up for my '70S.


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## gabriezim

that is a sweet looking ride! love those 80s' porsches...
good work with that enclosure!


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## Wesayso

howlndog said:


> Great build - thanks for sharing!
> 
> As a fellow p-car owner and Pelican I was wondering if you might share your smugglers box enclosure dimensions... as I'm working on a similar set-up for my '70S.


Sure, I'll post a picture of the 3D model I made to determine the capacity.
You'll have to post a picture of that '70S though! :laugh:

The model of the inside:









A side view with dimensions (all in mm):









Take these dimensions and first make both side walls out of 18mm MDF
Next make the bottom part, 210mm wide out of 18mm MDF and trail fit in the smugglers box. The bottom is where the dimension says 21mm. I didn't mount it flat but about 3mm higher hence the 21mm. This was because the bottom of the smugglers box wasn't completely flat. If it fits you can add the rest of the sides. You can see where I used the 12mm MDF parts to make sure the Sub would fit.

For the top part I outlined the actual metal box lid. Hope this helps.


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## howlndog

Wesayso said:


> Sure, I'll post a picture of the 3D model I made to determine the capacity.
> You'll have to post a picture of that '70S though!


Thank you - this will really help.

Here are a couple of pics of my car...


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## Wesayso

I know those pictures... great looking car. I still have ideas of backdating my SC and a car like yours only makes it worse for me . What is the color? It isn't slate gray is it?


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## howlndog

Wesayso said:


> I know those pictures... great looking car. I still have ideas of backdating my SC and a car like yours only makes it worse for me . What is the color? It isn't slate gray is it?


You've probably seen those pics on the Pelican Parts forum. The colour is dolomite grey metallic (1979). I'm about to do a re-paint and am having a hard time deciding between slay gray (period correct) and its existing colour (which suits the car well).


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## FLYONWALL9

Wesayso,

Your last two pics with the drivers door open, it looks as if
you were/are going to run speaker wires into your doors. If
so would you PLEASE take good pics of this process. I was
going to do the very same until I saw where they pass throuh,
damn near impossible. To me anyway. If you run the wires and
feel it was easy enough I may change up my game plan and 
forgo the kick install in my Targa and put all 3 of my drivers 
in the door to save time and money. Well, maybe not time or
money at this point because the kicks are already complete.

I've even got some of that thin 4 conductor wire but still its
pretty wide. I'm honestly at a loss on the subject.....

GREAT work on the enclosure, I hope that you are able to
get the volume you wish to have. If not perhaps an idea
would be to vent the bottom of the enclosure so that it
will then fire into the factory cabin vent in the bottom.

Tell us what your plans are for sound deadening/suppression?


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## Wesayso

Hi Flyonwall9,

I got the wires in allready. It actually wasn't all that hard. I used the existing speaker wires to pull the new ones trough. Hard to take pictures of it but I will try to talk trough it. First I followed the wires in the car to feel where they went trough on inside of the car. Same thing on the door, putting my arm way up trough the speaker hole I could feel where they went. I had to wiggle all the other wires out of the way from the mirrors and power windows to somewhat free the speaker wires. Next thing to try was if I could pull the wires inside the car and feel it move in the door. No luck there, I couldn't get the wires to move.
But I did see which grommet was used in the gap between the door and the car! So I took a sturdy piece of steel wire, bent into a hook and tried to catch the wire at that point. After about 3 tries pulling on the bent wire I got the speaker wire and could feel it move inside the door. After gently pulling out a loop I could get it to move inside the car too. At that point I connected the new speaker wires to the old, wrapped it with electric tape and smeared vaseline all over them. After that point it was easy. Pulled right trough, first pulling in the gap between the door and car... Hope this makes sense, English is not my native language .

About the deadening? I plan to add as little as possible . All the added weight of this project goes against my plans for the car (lol). But since I use it as a daily driver I want to have some good tunes. I ordered a starter kit of Silent Coat and plan to use just that. It contains 4 sheets of Alu Butyl type vibration dampening and one sheet water proof egg crate foam and one sheet closed cell foam.
Sheet sizes are about 37cm x 25cm (~ 15" x 10")

Link to Silent Coat starter set

Only plan on deadening the parts that need it. I'm keeping the factory deadening in place. Behind the speaker hole there is nothing so I will stick a piece of ~ 8" x 8" right behind the driver. The water proof egg crate foam will go on top of that to counter back waves. Maybe I'll add a little deadening on the inside panel of the door right beside the new baffle. I glued the MDF baffle to the door before mounting it with screws using Poly Max from Bison.
Same stuff I used to glue the sub enclosure.

The front trunk will only get 25% to 40% of vibration dampening tiles on the flat surfaces, that should be good enough. The closed cell foam can be used to stop rattles where needed I suppose .

That's the plan, I hope it will be enough... 

Good point on the vent option to the cabin. It had crossed my mind. The only worry I have is the small enclosure might not be big enough for that kind of setup.

Please keep in mind that I am no expert at all of this. This is my very first build after reading these forums daily for about 3 months :laugh:

I hope you get going again on your build, it is fun!


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## Guy

Nice thread, motivates me into talking my brother into hacking into his SC (I think his is an '84). It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the sub output of the sealed box. 
If you have it up and going tomorrow or the next, maybe I could swing by for a listen.  I'm going to be in Den Haag then on to Amsterdam, beautiful area. 
My buddy had an early 911 back in the '80s with a 10" G&S sub mounted in the smuggler's box, and the sub performance was excellent. I'll have to hunt him up for the details. Nice work, and look forward to the rest of the build.


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## Wesayso

Guy said:


> Nice thread, motivates me into talking my brother into hacking into his SC (I think his is an '84). It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the sub output of the sealed box.
> If you have it up and going tomorrow or the next, maybe I could swing by for a listen.  I'm going to be in Den Haag then on to Amsterdam, beautiful area.
> My buddy had an early 911 back in the '80s with a 10" G&S sub mounted in the smuggler's box, and the sub performance was excellent. I'll have to hunt him up for the details. Nice work, and look forward to the rest of the build.


Well I got sound so you can come by and listen :laugh:
But.... I'm in Assen, that's quite a bit of distance from Den Haag and Amsterdam. 

First impressions are good! After I got it all hooked up it didn't sound that great to start. Bass was lacking, the sub didn't make much sound. Loudness seemed to help a bit but not enough.
Played arround with some settings and finally figured, why not try auto TA/EQ? After that I had plenty of bass! It was getting late so I couldn't blast out loud (even in the garage) but it was a fun start.
Tomorrow I need to route a few wires and RCA's and set the gain propperly and mount the amp in its place. I'll upload some pictures when I'm done.
Soundstage seems a bit low but what can you expect with tweeters in the doors and off axis. I haven't started the engine yet, to much noise if I do so that will have to wait till tomorrow. I hope no noise problems but I did run an extra groud wire from the HU ground to the Amp ground to be save.

On the levels I played tonight I had one rattle from the trunk. No deadening yet, it hasn't arrived yet. I popped open the trunk and listenened where it came from. After putting some pressure on the sub enclosure the rattle was gone!
I had it loose with a bit of felt stripping arround the seal but now I know I need to bolt it down.

More tomorrow...


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## Wesayso

Another picture update to get things up to speed...

First the components in the door, with the crossover and tweeters in place. The door pocket is still off here, that will cover the crossover.









Next I needed a place to put the amp, I choose to mount it under the pasenger chair, it allready had some tabs on the floor I could use.
I made a mounting plate out of 1/2" MDF. My first plan was to mount the amp in the trunk but I didn't like how much space was needed, the amp was bigger than I thought .









After paint and wiring:









A step back gives a better view:









And with the chair back in place:









I fixed the rattle by bolting down the sub box. At first I experienced some hiss when I had no music playing. After some time I figured out I had the gains a bit to high... I didn't know the HU could go up to 62, I figured it was 50 (oops). After lowering the gains there was no more hiss.

Now all I need to do is learn to tune 

I know the placement of the components isn't the most ideal (allready some wild ideas have crossed my mid) but I wanted to keep it simple and stylish/stealth. The sound is superb in comparison to the old system but that shouldn't come as a big surprice:









The sound deadening still hasn't arrived so that will have to wait. I am curious though if that will make it even better, so far I'm quite happy with the results. The speakers are all new so some break in is still needed to get the best out of them. I do wonder however if I should have used the cups for the tweeters to get them on axis. The left side is way off axis in the current position.

Any thoughts on that last point anyone?


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## jorgegarcia

You're almost done. How you liking the system so far?


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## Wesayso

jorgegarcia said:


> You're almost done. How you liking the system so far?


I guess I'd have to say not bad for a first try at this. A lot like your sig says, although I'd say 50% planning, 30% parts and 20% install to end up at 100 .

Taking the time to do the install propperly seems to pay off in sound. Like I said, aiming the speakers might sound even better but so far not much to complain about. Strange how new plans allready flow trough my mind....
Like if I mounted that Sub, or an 8" IB sub (don't think the JBL would quallify) upside down in the current sealed box and vent it into the cabin (easy to do as the smugglers box has a nice extention below the dash...)
It has been suggested twice on this thread and I do believe it would work wonders. 
The current output isn't bad though, it does exactly what I wanted, extend the bottom end. It is a small place to fill, the 911 cabin.

The vibration dampening came in today so I can finish this install and play with it for a while. It can be addictive though!


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## FLYONWALL9

Wow, you made quick work of this!

I'm almost 100% pos that the smugglers box vents into the pass compartment via pass footwell. I've seen people boost output of the factory evap by adding fans to that area, is the reason for the thinking. A couple of things you can try before a total sub redesign. Try to tighten up the front boot lid via the latch in the front. This may restrict the amount of air that may be escaping and force it into the cab more. Lastly, you could very easily try an Aperiodic Membrane in the back of the enclosure. Cost is very low to free depending if you have the materials on hand. Lastly, I think before I went moving speakers around and messing with all your hard work; reverse polarity to see if it helps. Then if it were mine my next step or progression would be towards Time Alignment/EQ. One for a simple system like yours would be minimal in its cost.

Great work, congrats!


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## Wesayso

Time alignment and EQ are present in my Pioneer P88RS II so I will certainly try that. I have run the auto setup but it needs a bit of work afterwards. I'm not planning to change anything just yet. Just playing with the crossover settings gives big differences so I'm sure there's more to be had. I am curious if vibration dampening and that water proof egg crate will do anything extra for the mid bass output. I'll change the way the speaker is mounted to the baffle using a seal and mounting the speaker directly to the MDF baffle instead of the door card between speaker and MDF baffle I have now.


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## FLYONWALL9

Wesayso said:


> I am curious if vibration dampening and that water proof egg crate will do anything extra for the mid bass output. I'll change the way the speaker is mounted to the baffle using a seal and mounting the speaker directly to the MDF baffle instead of the door card between speaker and MDF baffle I have now.


I'm also looking forward to that report. I have purchased a
bunch of that stuff that has been sitting, enough to do my
car a couple times over. I still have my MLV to get in but
yes do let us know how all that works out.

As for mounting the your MB driver directly to the baffle on
the skin of the door should help greatly. I'm also really looking
forward to his review, that will tell me if I should build boxes
for my 8's. Or, if mounting them in like that is good enough.


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## nineball

always nice to see another 911 owner performing an audio upgrade. that is a nice, clean well built enclosure. i like it. i run a pair of the got804 subs and i really like them. 

if anyone wants to kill some time you can see the build log on my 83SC Targa below. alpine pdx5, spx-177r comps, pair of jbl gto804 subs and presently a jvc kd-sh1000 which is about to be swapped for a pioneer 800. i am hoping the all black face will be a better fit on the dash than my silver ultra-modern-looking-in-this-car sh1000. 

new audio install - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

interior resto including removing the 25+ year old asphalt sheeting from the factory with modern products. ya, it may have been a little pointless in a targa but i shed over 50lbs by removing the old and installing the new. 

it seems like everyone else has done it, so why not me... (interior) - Pelican Parts Technical BBS


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## DaveRulz

sarsipius ftw


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## Wesayso

DaveRulz said:


> sarsipius ftw


Julius Sarsipius Siliminajick Jackson the Turd


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## Wesayso

nineball said:


> always nice to see another 911 owner performing an audio upgrade. that is a nice, clean well built enclosure. i like it. i run a pair of the got804 subs and i really like them.
> 
> if anyone wants to kill some time you can see the build log on my 83SC Targa below. alpine pdx5, spx-177r comps, pair of jbl gto804 subs and presently a jvc kd-sh1000 which is about to be swapped for a pioneer 800. i am hoping the all black face will be a better fit on the dash than my silver ultra-modern-looking-in-this-car sh1000.


Thanks for the compliments. I remember reading about your install on the Pelican Parts website. I think you have way more bass than I have but the gto804 doesn't dissapoint! Do you like the alpine pdx5? 
My first plan was to stick some coaxials in the doors and an amp powered sub. Somehow I got derailed and moved on to this. My old HU crapped out and I got the P88RS II. Obviously I'm now wondering about going fully active. I had hopes I could run the tweeters from the head unit for the time beeing but was told it doesn't work in network mode. The 22 watt RMS should be enough of a match to the 55 watt the mids would recieve and I think the current crossover robs more running passive. 
A class D would be nicer to the alternator (I have a new alternator in there but the same specs as the one it replaced).
For now I'll run it as is and play with tuning. Unless I can power the tweeters from the HU . I left the original dampening in place and added a vibration dampening tile and egg crate behind the speakers. They are not lacking in (mid)bass and vibrate the door mirrors when crossed over below 100 hz.
I run the sub on 100 hz/12db with reversed polarity and the components at 100 hz/6db for the time beeing. It blends well that way. Auto tune set the sub to 63 hz/18 and +6db on volume, moving it up to 100/12 and +2db on volume sounds way better though. I can get enough bass to shake my pants :laugh:.

Browsing trough my CD's I am surpriced at the differences of the way they were recorded. That makes it harder to set up a middle ground.


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## nineball

i love the pdx amp. i run 3 of them between two cars. i also used 100hz as the crossover point for my mids and sub. seems to work out good in the car.


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## The Baron Groog

Great install, and yes-what a garage. Great to see someone not afraid to get stuck into a classic Hope you're happy with the product recommendations made.


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## Wesayso

Today I found some spare time to do some tuning. I couldn't EQ the sound into what I wanted to hear over the last couple of weeks. I had the tweeters up on the crossover from -3db to 0db after I adjusted the gain the first time but didn't like the sound, a bit to hollow if that's possible.
Before I changed the tweeters I liked the tonality better but something in the highs was missing. That's when the gains were set quite a bit to high. 

The sub integration was also difficult to get it to really blend with the mid bass. So I went a few steps back and decided to reset the gains on the sub using the much dissaproved test tone/multi meter method. Next step was to check polarity and attenuation from the tweeters on the crossovers back to -3db and I ended up reversing polarity on the left tweeter. That made the difference I was looking for.

After running the auto EQ/TA feature on the head unit again I knew I was getting close to the sound I'm after. This time I was able to pick a setting on the sub and EQ and having it sound good on many CD's of different kinds of music.

I still want to open up the doors again because the tweeters are getting some vibration from the mids. They are not mounted to the steel inner part of the door but only to the door card. I'll have to figure out the best/easy way to solve that. And I still need to deaden the front hood. At high levels I get a faint rattle when I listen outside the car. I'll try to find it and solve the rattle.

All in all I'm pretty pleased with the outcome so far. Now I need to learn how to tune a bit more, I'm sure it will take a while but things have improved with every step so far so I'm still on the right track (i hope).

I have the head unit on the standard setting (front/rear/sub) but could I set it to network without running seperate tweeters (using passive crossover)?
I thinkl it should be possible to run the tweeters from the HU but I wasn't to sure if that would help me, tuning the current setup into sounding good seemed the right path right now. The network setting does have more settings available however. I hope I'm not limiting myself too much with the standard setting. But to get at the switch I'd need to pop out the head unit.
I have it secured at the back and I am not looking forward to crawl under there again. If I'm missing out I will though...


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## Wesayso

The Baron Groog said:


> Great install, and yes-what a garage. Great to see someone not afraid to get stuck into a classic Hope you're happy with the product recommendations made.


You made me think about going after the PRS set for the doors. I haven't pursued yet but it's hard to resist . In time I'll give a 5 way amp (Alpine PDX?) a shot to go full active but so far I'm pretty pleased with the setup chosen.

The relatively small JBL amp is big enough on output for such a small space to fill. (at least for me)


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## The Baron Groog

They are great speakers, if you can find some 2nd hand they'd be great value. The PDX5 is also a good product to look at-however you could just get a comapct mono amp for sub duties and use the JBL for your mids and tops:

Massive Audio :: Amplifiers :: NANO BLOCK SERIES AMPLIFIERS ***NEW 2010 ITEMS*** :: N2 - Mono Block Amplifier

Something like this would hardly add any weight^ and may prove a cheaper option

Keeps us posted of any changes.


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## Wesayso

*A few changes...*

I've made some changes to the system in the past couple of weeks. I still couldn't get the high's the way I wanted so I decided to make a little spacer. I used the wave guides that came with the component set. All in all a 10 degrees change, pointing a little in and up towards the seating position.
I didn't dare use the pods (and didn't like how that would look) and mount them on axis after reading the reviews of these tweeters.
So they went from flush to 10 degrees more towards on axis and it really made a change.









Next steps was tuning, ehhh, make that learning how to tune . I bought a Radio Shack analog SPL meter to help a bit with that. Some time in the near future I'll hook it up to a PC or Laptop and run True RTA or something simular.
My first use was making a CD with the frequencies present on the HU's equaliser and softening the peaks I found. the 20 Hz measurement was sky high so I think the 1x 8" JBL will be plenty for me. I got a nasty resonance at 50 Hz and will need to find out what makes the rattling noises. I deadened the front trunk lid but I think the lid's frame makes the rattle noises.

The above steps where very usefull though. I could finally hear bass lines in the music instead of only big bass! There were some dips as well but I'll see what I can find when I connect a PC later on.

The high's where much better after the spacer mod. But around 4K there seems to be a nasty peak (crossover point?). Some singers had quite a harsh sound when singing the "eSsss-es". Pulling down EQ on 3.15 Khz helped but didn't fully cure the problem. Stuck in the back of my head was the thread about the US version of these speakers and it mentioned the woofers were to blame for the artifacts in that region.

So today I decided to try and cure the problem. Imaging was allready very good but sometimes the "Ssss" sounds would pull the image heavy to the left speaker(s). I removed the HU to trow over the switch from Standard to 3-way network and tried a full range speaker on the HU high's speaker out lines. The only thing comming out was high's so the filter works on the speaker wires as well on the RCA out's. As mentioned this would give me the oppertunity to connect the tweeters to the speaker out and the mids on the 1-2 channel of the JBL GTO504 and the single sub on the 3-4 channel bridged.
It took a while to run the extra wires into the doors but I managed . One door took 5 minutes. The other door about half an hour or more!

Everything is put back together and after re-running auto TA/EQ and some changes to the settings of the auto function I'm about at the point I was with the passives. It's a bit to soon to tell if the harshness is completely gone but first impressions are good. The woofers are crossed over @ 2.5KHz/24db and the tweeters at 3.15KHz/24db. 

Imaging seems quite good, better than before even but I'll live with it for a week or so before I start to fiddle again . The network setting has way more to play with (or mess up) so I'll try to take it step by step.

Updates to follow, I'm sure...

Wesayso


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Let the tinkering begin... I think that is part of the fun of building
a system like this. It seems as if your following the correct path
to me, then again I don't know your HU. I know for sure I wouldn't
have known to take the steps you did thus far to tune, I don't know
the equipment you used. What I have is greatly different from all
the new stuff on the market. Just the same its fun to follow your
steps. Keep us posted. 

Cheers....


----------



## Wesayso

Thanks FLYONWALL9,

Going active made a big difference. No more harsh "eSss-es" and more control.
I haven't tried hooking up a PC with TruRTA or similar just yet but I will in the near future. Image is stable and right in front of me. I did concider putting it in the center of the car but why should I since I mostly drive alone anyways. I like it like this.
Bass is very tight after getting rid of "room nodes" with the Radio Shack SPL meter. I also tried to center every frequency by ear with the L/R Eq. Just a few of them were a bit off. Most of them were at the "center" in front of me.
After these few weeks of having this setup I can now say that most CD's sound good. When I started there were quite a few that sounded like rubbish. Mostly because of the room nodes/ cabin gain in the low bass. I have quite some cabin gain near 50 Hz and still some resonance up front somewhere at that frequency during test tones. It hardly surfaces during real music playback but I'll try to find and solve it.
Next thing to do is better noise blocking/reduction around and on the firewall as my SSI exhaust system and the air cooled engine with fan can get quite loud .


----------



## bimmerman11

Sweet daily driver.


----------



## SlipAngle

Awesome garage - awesome car - awesome install


----------



## howlndog

Wesayso,

How deep a tweeter do you think could be mounted (without a baffle) in your door?

Unfortunately my car is under a foot of snow, or I'd check myself


----------



## Wesayso

At the position I used there's quite a bit of room. I just replaced my tweeters with the Hertz Space 1 tweeter with the big chamber and that one could be flush mounted. I used the angled spacer but there is a dent behind the tweeter where the manual window cranks used to mount. I'd say more than 1" but I'd have to measure to be sure. 
I used a 40mm hose clamp to mount the tweeter .


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Wes,

If your doors are back together I would be more than happy to measure
anything needed. Mine are STILL apart! 

I think anyone that has had these doors apart would agree one could
easily do 8's, or any 3 ways on the market surface mount. 

HOWLIN,
Give me a little help and I'll measure anything you need so Wes doesn't
have to take his kickass doors apart.

About where do you want to put the tweeters in question, and are you
willing to cut any of the metal? If not I can both take detailed pix with
ruler.. Cuz, I'm that kinda guy for my P-car brothers/sisters


----------



## howlndog

Wesayso
Thanks for the help.... and please do not rip into your doors! How do you like your new Hertz tweets?

FLYONWALL9
I have a crank window, RS door panels, and I am willing to cut metal. As this is going to be my first build... I frankly don't know where the tweets should/can go. I "think" I am leaning towards a 2.1 active system, using raw drivers.

Time to start my own thread?


----------



## FLYONWALL9

howlndog said:


> FLYONWALL9
> I have a crank window, RS door panels, and I am willing to cut metal. As this is going to be my first build... I frankly don't know where the tweets should/can go. I "think" I am leaning towards a 2.1 active system, using raw drivers.
> 
> Time to start my own thread?



IMHO, you can buy any front stage you want for these cars
with NO fear of mounting depth. Even if you want to flush 
them in behind the pocket, which you do not have on RS
panels. So, I would say go ahead and shop, fear not....

Start your own thread, well, that is up to you, your under
a foot of snow so why? Just ask questions on 911 builds 
and I don't think ANY of us would mind one bit. Well, perhaps
I'm speaking for myself, your welcome to add content to 
mine if you like. Oh, you will find some pretty good pics of 
the doors on that thread too. 

Cheers, 

and Wesayso I didn't want to speak out of tern for
posting other topics on your thread. I'm pretty sure
we are one in the same, doesn't matter; helping others
is what its all about...


----------



## Bower

Wow, that install is amazing. Love it....and that car! Nice job.


----------



## willtel

Great looking car Wesayso, your garage is nicer than my living room!




howlndog said:


> FLYONWALL9
> I have a crank window, RS door panels, and I am willing to cut metal. As this is going to be my first build... I frankly don't know where the tweets should/can go. I "think" I am leaning towards a 2.1 active system, using raw drivers.


With crank windows I think tweeter location will be your biggest limiting factor. I ended up putting Aura braxials in my 930 doors just because I couldn't bring myself cut any holes in the leather door panels. I think they sound great but I admittedly don't have much to compare them to.


IMG_7914 by willtel, on Flickr

911 doors really can be a blank slate and as FLYONWALL9 has stated there is a lot of depth in the door for big drivers.

Alligator anyone?


----------



## Wesayso

I dont mind at all 
Our goal is the same I guess... getting great sound in a classic car in a reasonable and stylish way? Howlndog, you're more than welcome to continue your thoughts right here or in a new thread. I don't mind a bit. I like talking about these cars anyway. Have you thought about a component set you can use co-axial? With a real tweeter mounted on the phase plug?
Like the HAT Imagine set:
Products
It would be even better if you could aim the tweeter as well.
Another idea: 1979-porsche-911

I put my tweeters where they are after a long time thinking about it.
There's not much space on the dash to put them, a pilars even less without beeing obvious or in your way. So I figured the kick panels could work or my simple solution in the door panels to keep early reflections to a minimum. 
I have to say it does work for imaging. Imaging is quite strong and well defined in this position. The stage is wide but in all honesty not really deep. Not surpricing with the tweeters mounted relatively close.
Putting the tweeters as low and far out as the midbass might work well if you can raise the stage enough. My stage is well above the dash and that came as a bit of a surprice.
The Hertz tweeters seem to be better of axis than the pioneer originals I had in there.

The most important to me to achieve is tonal balance. I'm not there yet. These 911's are small cars and that does affect the sound. It is easy to get a lot of bass but my chosen place for the tweeter seems to bring out some high peaks at arround 6K. That's the reason I changed the tweeters to a known good tweeter without sibilance. I do like the switch, my sound improved but the peak remains (still some harshness / sibilance on esses, hard to EQ it all out without losing balance). So I guess my placement isn't optimal for the tweeters I tried so far. I'm going to aim them in a few ways to see if that improves things. Maybe even try flush mounted again. The space 1 tweeters are way better in every way compared to the original Pioneers. I can cross them over lower to releave the woofers and they just sound better. Now if I can only find the solution/cure to the esses... It's not every song but more than I like.
I like the tweeters so much I'm now thinking of putting in Hertz Mille 1600 midbass woofers as well. Probably a crazy idea but I got it stuck in my head that they too will improve my sound. They are a lot more expensive but at reasonable cost on Ebay Italy.
My original Pioneer set was the same price as the Space 1 tweeters (lol). But I got lucky and got a killer deal on a brand new set.


----------



## Wesayso

willtel said:


> Great looking car Wesayso, your garage is nicer than my living room!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With crank windows I think tweeter location will be your biggest limiting factor. I ended up putting Aura braxials in my 930 doors just because I couldn't bring myself cut any holes in the leather door panels. I think they sound great but I admittedly don't have much to compare them to.
> 
> 
> IMG_7914 by willtel, on Flickr
> 
> 911 doors really can be a blank slate and as FLYONWALL9 has stated there is a lot of depth in the door for big drivers.
> 
> Alligator anyone?


Thanks willtel, I was just looking for your car. I had seen the braxials in your doors but couldn't find it. I searched for 911 duh... 
I did find that other example though... but most of us have the tweeters low I guess....


----------



## howlndog

Well, since you don't mind, I think I'd rather just tag along on your thread - at least for the time being.

I did consider coaxials, and in fact I have a BNIB set of KEF 160Q (+ crossovers) sitting in the garage that would work well... I just thought going component / active might be more fun (to do) and provide better results.


----------



## Wesayso

That's what I did . But I'm not quite satisfied yet... That tells you more about me and my inexperience than anything else though. Does your RS doors still have the original top vinyl part? I'm talking about the top black bar in willtel's picture. If you could get spares for those parts could it provide enough room to mount a tweeter? It's just 2 screws that hold it in place. That would place the tweeter higher and you could move the tweeter as much forward as possible to simulate a sail panel install.
Now that I think about it I should have done that myself, I have the electric mirror switch on one side but that's small. I wouldn't sacrifice my originals (as I did with my door cards duh...) but with a bit of fabrication it could even look stealth.


----------



## howlndog

Wesayso said:


> Does your RS doors still have the original top vinyl part?


I do have that piece, in fact I have an extra set sitting in a box somewhere. Both sets are in need of a recover, though.


----------



## Wesayso

Even better! mount some good tweeters in there and wrap the whole part with black grille cloth.... That way you'd only need to figure out what component set to use (lol).
Tweeters like the space 1 from Hertz would be a good candidate I guess. But there are lot's of others that should work, you just need to determine the right spot and see what you could mount in there. I would make it hidden in your case. wrap the grille cloth over the entire piece like most here do with their a-pillars....
Just make sure you get a set of tweeters that do well off axis.
You have a beautiful car and it's a real classic beeing from pre 80's age it just seems right to keep as much as possible hidden in there. I wouldn't mind some woofers in the doors though in the usual place.
What HU or processor are you planning to use to go active?


----------



## Wesayso

Bower said:


> Wow, that install is amazing. Love it....and that car! Nice job.


Thank you Bower, and welcome to the forum!


----------



## FLYONWALL9

I was going to suggest that bar at the top of the door also. You do have 
some depth to play with in that spot also. You could also make some rings 
to aim them rather easy, if you wanted to get fancy glass them then cover. 
Maybe even use some pvc cut on angle and bondo/kitty hair them in place 
sand and call it a day. Again, I would ALWAYS play with tweeters before 
cutting anything. They all seem different to me so putting them in a given 
spot with such a blank door seems to me pointless. I would say buy a 
tweeter that could fit in that bar but use velcro and play with them before 
cutting anything. IMHO


----------



## howlndog

Wesayso said:


> What HU or processor are you planning to use to go active?


My plan is to use a tablet such as an IPad or Samsung Galaxy Tab loaded with FLAC files, using digital / usb out to a HOTAudio DAC. I'd like to add a JBL MS-8 for processing. I have a couple of Soundstream Van Gogh amps I'd like to use and an old-school A/D/S/ 310RS subwoofer, which I am undecided about.

I've decided to go the tablet route (versus a traditional HU) for its portability and because I have filled the radio spot on my dash with cylinder head temp and volt guages.

I love your idea of using the door top pad as a place to mount the tweets... I'm not sure I'm up to the fabrication, though. My skill set is more of the weld and hammer type.


----------



## Wesayso

FLYONWALL9 said:


> I was going to suggest that bar at the top of the door also. You do have
> some depth to play with in that spot also. You could also make some rings
> to aim them rather easy, if you wanted to get fancy glass them then cover.
> Maybe even use some pvc cut on angle and bondo/kitty hair them in place
> sand and call it a day. Again, I would ALWAYS play with tweeters before
> cutting anything. They all seem different to me so putting them in a given
> spot with such a blank door seems to me pointless. I would say buy a
> tweeter that could fit in that bar but use velcro and play with them before
> cutting anything. IMHO


Good plan on playing with the tweeters placement until you find a good spot.
I didn't do that but my plan was to simply upgrade the complete install and be done with it. I had no plans to get infected with this disease that seems never ending to get it to sound better all the time :blush:.


----------



## Wesayso

howlndog said:


> My plan is to use a tablet such as an IPad or Samsung Galaxy Tab loaded with FLAC files, using digital / usb out to a HOTAudio DAC. I'd like to add a JBL MS-8 for processing. I have a couple of Soundstream Van Gogh amps I'd like to use and an old-school A/D/S/ 310RS subwoofer, which I am undecided about.
> 
> I've decided to go the tablet route (versus a traditional HU) for its portability and because I have filled the radio spot on my dash with cylinder head temp and volt guages.
> 
> I love your idea of using the door top pad as a place to mount the tweets... I'm not sure I'm up to the fabrication, though. My skill set is more of the weld and hammer type.


Wow, sounds like a sweet plan, putting in that MS-8 might be easyer than trying to tune it all yourself. From what I've read that MS-8 can do wonders.

I wish I had that tweeter placement idea when I started my project. I'll try to make my setup work by trying different directions to aim the tweeter up, forward even etc. I'll also try to flush mount these as they are clearly worlds apart from the tweeters in the budget Pioneer set.

I don't think fabrication has to be difficult but I understand your concerns. Just stick em up there first with velcro or double sided tape and try out some different positions. But to try them you'd need a working setup first .


----------



## veleno

Have you guys considered using HLCD (horns)? 

Take a look here for some installs, though they're not as detailed as you'd like at least they provide options.

SpeakerWorks/USD Audio Install Gallery


----------



## Wesayso

After reading about the Grand National on this forum it had crossed my mind...
But space is a real issue, even under the dash. I'll stick with what I have but you might be in time for howlndog


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Wesayso said:


> I had no plans to get infected with this disease that seems never ending to get it to sound better all the time :blush:.



One would think it gets easier with age, you just don't feel like screwing
with it BUT, that just isn't the case is it? Now you see why so many
people call Car Audio a hobby


----------



## Wesayso

Well today I finished my transition to Herts speakers. I allready had the Space 1 tweeters and added the ML 1600 midbass today. In my opinion the tweeters were a bigger upgrade than the woofers but the Hertz seem to be more open / neutral and sound nice. 
I'll run them for a while before I'll jump to any conclusions. The pioneers seemed to hit harder but these are brand new and we'll see in a few weeks.
Those Hertz woofers are something though! Very beautiful speakers and well made. The fit of the grille is superb like everything seems to be with these. They even fit/look better with the rest of the interior of my old 911.
I'm still having some "essess" and "ttt's" even with these space 1 tweeters. Didn't manage to EQ it all out but I could soften it. I think it's install related, the tweeter beeing placed where it is. I'll try some different angles like I mentioned before.

Here's a picture of my 'custom' tweeter mount (lol)









When it gets a bit warmer I'll deaden the doors and doorcards a bit more/better. For now I only did the outside of the door and a little bit just behind the tweeters. I haven't even covered the bigger holes on the inner skin but with these woofers I probably should. They are covered by the doorcard obviously but that's just a piece of hardboard. I want to keep weight down but I'll have to find some optimum. Right now the doorcards vibrate (I don't hear them but feel them at the arm rest).


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Nice one! Those are some very well made speakers it seems.... 

You know, you've tried a couple different sets of speakers and
have had the same harshness with some esses, ttsss... I'm wondering
if its not amp or source related? Any chance you have a 1/4 farad or
1/2 farad cap laying around? I seem to remember having this issue 
with a set of USD's I ran years ago. After a cap was installed the prob
was gone. Well, come to think of it I also changed amps at the same
time. So, I guess the amp may have been the issue..... Oh well, good
jog just the same....


----------



## Wesayso

I don't think the amp is the source in my case. I had the same problem when I was running the pioneers trough the passives powered by the JBL amp. Right now the tweeters are powered off the HU 22 watt RMS amp and the problem remained the same.
I guess it's install but I have other options to try out. I'll first try the aiming thing if the weather changes. Right now it's been snowing for the last couple of weeks. This 911 has to work for a living . I still use it every day in the snow.
The Hertz set is really growing on me fast! The midd bass is loosening up and is way more powerfull than the Pioneer ever was. It's tight and well defined. After some more EQ with an SPL meter handy I really like what I hear. No more hollow sound like I had with the Pio's. I still have a bit of a problem with essess and ttss but it is way better than before. I think I'll get the hang of it with these speakers. I have a more open sound than before and tonallity it has improved a lot. I need to EQ left/right again to get the focusses stage I had before back but tone is more important to me.
I'm glad I tried the Hertz set. I bought them purely based on what I read about them so it was a big gamble on my part. Luckily it seems to pay off.

So how is your build comming along? I saw howlndog pursuing some A/D/S/ speakers, I'll try to find that thread again to ask if he got those yet.


----------



## The Baron Groog

Wesayso said:


> I still have a bit of a problem with essess and ttss


Try raising tweeter HPF and mid LPF


----------



## Wesayso

Thanks for the advice! I did just that this morning after reading the 4K tweeter crossover thread. I am trying a 4K HPF after running all week with 3.15 K. I'll play some more with the mid LPF. It's at 2K right now but the Hertz set can play higher than that.

I'm trying to change taking baby steps. One thing at the time and listen for a few days. But often I fiddle with the knobs while driving anyway and mess everything up.


----------



## The Baron Groog

lol-well timed!

Yup, we're all guilty of that-get it "almost" right and then chuck all your work out the window with one fiddle too far!


----------



## Wesayso

Sometimes I am amazed how well I can mess things up. Turning knobs all the way on my drive home and thinking, yeah, this must be right until the next morning I get in the car. I can't believe how dreadfull it sounds at times lol.


----------



## The Baron Groog

Yup, we've all been there-started with a fillet steak and ended up with a burger...


----------



## OldOneEye

Love the car, for the subwoofer install I have actually seen a few installs where they would cut a hole in the area where the steering linkage goes (well, several small ones) and then free air the woofer into the passenger comparent. It works out well if you want to cut holes. Also seen it in a Mk I MR2 with a 15" woofer in the front trunk firing through a number of holes in the bulkhead/firewall. You can get some serious bass for the simple reason that it's so well sealed between the car and the front boot.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

OldOneEye said:


> Love the car, for the subwoofer install I have actually seen a few installs where they would cut a hole in the area where the steering linkage goes (well, several small ones) and then free air the woofer into the passenger comparent. It works out well if you want to cut holes..


I think today you will be VERY hard pressed to find any 911 owner
who would want to hack up his/her car quite that bad. I think the
extent of such an install would use the AC box OR 'smugglers box'
because it already vents into the pass compartment. You will find
one such install on a 911 late last year on this board. Most of us
like our AC here in the states no matter how poor they may work.
Those that live in places where they don't use them often don't 
mind pulling them out or have already had them pulled. 

For me keeping as much room as possible in the front of the car
for travel reason are a must. I will however be adding a second
battery once I get that far into my install. You will find many 
owners use the front boot for amp racks and such because it is
one of the few places on these cars that stays dry. That is for
Targa, and Convert owners; well, some of us......


----------



## Wesayso

OldOneEye said:


> Love the car, for the subwoofer install I have actually seen a few installs where they would cut a hole in the area where the steering linkage goes (well, several small ones) and then free air the woofer into the passenger comparent. It works out well if you want to cut holes. Also seen it in a Mk I MR2 with a 15" woofer in the front trunk firing through a number of holes in the bulkhead/firewall. You can get some serious bass for the simple reason that it's so well sealed between the car and the front boot.


Thanks,
I can see that working quite good! For me, this simple sub up front is enough to give quite a nice SQ extention to the bass. It's not difficult to get quite a bit of bass in such a small place and it's all up front. I have 20 hz turned down a bit on the EQ because it rumbles in the floorboard. From 30 hz on it's loud enough to blend good with the midbass.
Once i get the sibilance under control I'll have quite a nice system :laugh:


----------



## Wesayso

I've been trying very hard to fight the sibilance, mainly the Esses. I aimed the tweeters around and even mounted them flush but no luck. Next I covered them up with the ear mufs of some headphones I own (spare set from sennheiser pmx 40, perfect fit) but it didn't solve everything. 

Every time I try and fix it with EQ I end up with lifeless sound. I am trained to hear Esses everywhere as a result :laugh:. Last night I figured to start again setting up everything from the start. Crossovers back up at 4 Khz/24db and first the auto tune/eq from Pioneer. After that was done I flipped the auto EQ on and of to see if I liked it's results. I did! Still the esses where flying trough my now trained head. Next up was sub integration and TA. Did that a little different from reading and learning on this site. For example I think Bikinpunk had mentioned setting TA on the tweeters by first lowering the crossover, moderate volume of coarse, and adjusting TA by centering the sound.

After that I spend quite some time getting the tone right. This time by hearing only. Just play a well known song and try and make it sound as natural as possible and move on to other well known material if needed.
I was quite happy with the results but the Esses where still bothering me.

After considering buying a new amp for the tweeters without beeing sure it would fix the problem I decided to do things a little different. I remember reading a piece by THE Andy from JBL stating a graphic EQ will get you only so far. It's nice do dail in tone with it but no cure for real problems. This P88RS II has only a 16 band EQ (left and right) so maybe I'd still have troubles after buying a new amp. Why not try something cheap.

So I downloaded Spitfish, a de-esser VST plugin and re-ripped several CD's from my collection running them trough 2 different de-esser routines based on what I had heard in the car. The difference is amazing! My jaw dropped on the floor listening to the setup tonight. I must have done something right yesterday evening and the best thing: no more esses! I didn't remove all esses of course, but just enough to stop bothering me. No more extra EQ needed in the 4 - 8K range just pure pleasure and I got to keep the lifeliness (SP?). Now if ony I can keep my hands of all the dails  in the comming days. I'll still concider a real amp for the tweeters instead of the HU as it may be the source but at least I know now how good the car can sound!

Forever addicted I'm afraid...

Oh yeah, here's the download for the Spitfish plugin, it might help someone out there... Spitfish
It works as a DSP vst plugin with dBpoweramp among others.


----------



## davidebender

Wesayso said:


> Sometimes I am amazed how well I can mess things up. Turning knobs all the way on my drive home and thinking, yeah, this must be right until the next morning I get in the car. I can't believe how dreadfull it sounds at times lol.


The trick is to tune everything up, going away for like half an hour, resting your ears, and going back for the final tuning.
That's the way i usually find the best setup.


----------



## Wesayso

You're absolutely right. But I always find myself dailing knobs on the road trying to fix something. It rarely works and that should tell me something. I'm trying to break that habit though. I've learned to listen at least a few seperate times to each change made.
I'm closing in on better sound but it takes less to mess it up again.
I'll make a note of all my current settings to have a point of reference.


----------



## Wesayso

FLYONWALL9 said:


> You know, you've tried a couple different sets of speakers and
> have had the same harshness with some esses, ttsss... I'm wondering
> if its not amp or source related? Any chance you have a 1/4 farad or
> 1/2 farad cap laying around? I seem to remember having this issue
> with a set of USD's I ran years ago. After a cap was installed the prob
> was gone. Well, come to think of it I also changed amps at the same
> time. So, I guess the amp may have been the issue..... Oh well, good
> jog just the same....


Trying a new amp on the tweeters next. I just got a Genesis SIII Stereo 60 for them. Hope to install soon. I'm not expecting miracles but I guess my HU amp is working overtime to keep up. I wanted a solution for that and now I can choose some different setups. The Genesis could even be used to power the sub as its bridged power is higher than the JBL I'm using.


----------



## Wesayso

I did not keep this thread up to date so I'll try and fill in the holes so to speak. I did mount the Genesis Series III Stereo 60 and got a SIII Four Channel for the woofers and sub. No pictures of the Stereo 60 yet but one of the Four channel, tight fit under the passenger seat (plenty of room above though).
This is before I had to cut up the heat sink to keep seat adjustabillity 









The tweeter amp is mounted in the front trunk but still needs a bit of work (paint). I'll get photo's up if it's ready.

I wanted to try the small chambers on my Hertz Space One tweeters but that wouldn't work with my mounting construction (see previous page). Solved it by asking a friend to make me some. Outer dimensions are similar to the big chamber and the inside is exactly like the small chamber from Hertz.

























Next up, tweeter protection, a couple of Visaton 22 uf capacitors mounted on a piece of MDF the same size as the previous crossovers from Pioneer. That way I can hang them in the door pockets where the crossovers were before.









I still have plans to do some extra deadening and bought more mat and MLV. I just need to find the time to get it all in :worried:.

After a few weeks with the new amps I'm quite happy with that choise. I bought both second hand and did not have to break the bank.
Tried the tuning described here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/96196-precision-time-alignment-using-only-noise-tracks-your-ears.html
If you haven't allready, *try it!* At first it was hard to hear but once you do it works great. Image improved, tight mids and I was able to get rid of most of my Esses I was battling by tweaking the TA a little. I have one tweeter mounted with the small chamber and still need to do the other door. So no real clue if that helped. I can think it does and than it would be true right? :laugh:

to be continued....


----------



## Wesayso

I realised I never showed the Hertz set in the doors, here is the doorpanel with the Hertz ML 1600 and Space One tweeter with protection cap in the same spot I previously had the Pioneer crossover:









I wanted to try out a spherical spacer for the tweeter but did not finish it yet. The first wooden version broke on me when trying to get the tweeter hole in. It's very thin at the top (4mm) so I don't know if wood is the right choise for me. It would look something like this:








I would paint it black anyway so maybe I'll try to get some from aluminium if I can. I ran out of time to deaden the doors any further so that's for another day.


----------



## OldOneEye

Quick suggestions (and I know part of it is the flash), take a black permanent magic marker to the screws holding in the woofer.

Juan


----------



## FLYONWALL9

MAN THAT LOOKS SOOOOO GOOD!!!!! I cannot wait to get my red int, it just looks
so good in these cars. That is given the proper ext paint. Silver and red is classic like 
in the 356's. I cant wait, seeing your car ALWAYS gets me fired up! THANKS for that...

What kind of wood were you using, MDF or something like that? A suggestion I would 
have is a hard wood like ash, mahogany, teak, something very strong that you can mill. 
That may be easier than trying to machine aluminum unless you have a high speed router 
with a good table. For idea's how to work aluminum with hand tools look up 'ONE BADASS 
BMW 330' 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...gs/30321-one-badassed-bmw-330-a-new-post.html

I've been wondering if your tweeter or high freq issue was ever fully solved? I ran into 
an issue kind of like yours with a Sony ES system just two weeks ago. We added a line 
driver and poof problem solved!


I'm also wondering, how is your MIDBASS now? MUCH MUCH more I'm sure over the Pioneer, 
what I'm more wondering is tone and any issues with door noise. I'm still not sure how well 
the doors are going to handle me putting 8's in mine. The good thing is I have the two 
different sets on hand to try, one with large amounts of excursion OZ 8's, ones with smaller 
surrounds MB Quart 8's.... Just worried is all..


----------



## Wesayso

FLYONWALL9 said:


> MAN THAT LOOKS SOOOOO GOOD!!!!! I cannot wait to get my red int, it just looks
> so good in these cars. That is given the proper ext paint. Silver and red is classic like
> in the 356's. I cant wait, seeing your car ALWAYS gets me fired up! THANKS for that...
> 
> What kind of wood were you using, MDF or something like that? A suggestion I would
> have is a hard wood like ash, mahogany, teak, something very strong that you can mill.
> That may be easier than trying to machine aluminum unless you have a high speed router
> with a good table. For idea's how to work aluminum with hand tools look up 'ONE BADASS
> BMW 330'
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...gs/30321-one-badassed-bmw-330-a-new-post.html
> 
> I've been wondering if your tweeter or high freq issue was ever fully solved? I ran into
> an issue kind of like yours with a Sony ES system just two weeks ago. We added a line
> driver and poof problem solved!
> 
> 
> I'm also wondering, how is your MIDBASS now? MUCH MUCH more I'm sure over the Pioneer,
> what I'm more wondering is tone and any issues with door noise. I'm still not sure how well
> the doors are going to handle me putting 8's in mine. The good thing is I have the two
> different sets on hand to try, one with large amounts of excursion OZ 8's, ones with smaller
> surrounds MB Quart 8's.... Just worried is all..


Sorry for the later reaction, I think I have the tweeter pods under control. I'm having a pair 3D printed, they should be in my hands by the end of next week. I modelled them in Autodesk Inventor, not the ideal app for curved subjects but they should turn out o.k. Here's a preview:









I'm letting them print in a black Nylon. Can't wait to see them. I never really got rid of the harshness without upsetting something else. Closest I got was to use a bit of T/A and EQ combined. I think it's from reflections/difraction in my case. Hence the new tweeter pods, every little bit helps. I don't think its amp or HU related. The tweeter might be a source but I won't rule out the woofers with the door pockets still in front of them. I don't know yet how I'm going to change that.

Mid Bass is wonderfull, tight and powerfull. But the doors are not propperly damped yet, they can't take high volume but neither can my dash with the sub upfront. I still need to solve that but other than that it sounds great. A very live like sound with a good focussed image. The one thing lacking is depth. With the drivers that close to me it comes as no surprice.

In your case, I wouldn't stick an 8" driver in these doors. You have the advantage of the iron bar in the door (not in the SC's) so it could work out a bit better taming the outer skin. A sealed pod might be the way to deal with that? But then you'd need a different kind of driver to use in a small sealed space. I will be happy on the low end if I can stop all the rattles, impact is great. And of course I need to cure the highs. I have been at a point where the highs sounded great but that was with totally out of wack time alignment. My problem is at 6 or 7 KHz so just a small step of 1.25 cm time alignment can do a lot.

Instrumentals like Stevie Ray Vaughn playing Little Wing is out of this world!

So how's your build comming along? Any updates/plans?


----------



## Wesayso

OldOneEye said:


> Quick suggestions (and I know part of it is the flash), take a black permanent magic marker to the screws holding in the woofer.
> 
> Juan


I will, once I'm done working on the inside of the doors... everything still comes apart once a month right now :laugh:

Thanks for the tip.


----------



## Wesayso

*time for another update*

I had planned to deaden the area where the subwoofer sits and finally found some time last weekend to work on it. 
Also painted the mount for my new tweeter amp. Only thing left to do up front is cut the carpet 








_The smuglers box_









_New Genesis Series III Stereo 60 tweeter amplifier mount, seperate from the sub box_

My 3D prints of the tweeter cups came in and I am thrilled with the results:
















_Inspired by the 'Improve Your Soundstage for $2' thread, nice round shapes_

I deadened the inside, just to be sure:








_Alu butyl in all the pockets to prevent vibrations_

The tweeter fits exellent, a side by side with the old spacer:















_trail fit of the new tweeter cup, loose on the door panel. It's 5 degrees more on axis compared to the old spacer_


----------



## Wesayso

The mounting of the tweeter improved too compared to what I had:









The old one :blush::









Next I cut some MLV for the doorcard and glued both together:








_I forgot to use this one as a template for the other door so now I have to do it all over again _

I bought some aluminium to cover the holes on the inner skin of the door but could not get myself to drill the doors. 
I guess I'll try MLV only for a while. I didn't have any closed cell foam on hand, couldn't get it in 4mm thickness so I used foam 
weatherstriping to decouple the doorcard from the door and seal it somewhat. 
Maybe I'll order some CCF later from the UK, can't seem to find it in the Netherlands in the 4mm size.

Here's the door with the new tweeter cup:









And a view of the off axis position:









One door finished, one to go! I'll hold my comments till the other side is done as well. Maybe one note: 
Mid bass seems stronger, can't wait to finish the other side.

That's it for now. Still more deadening to do, doors and maybe the floor and I can't make up my mind about the door 
pockets covering the woofers. Do I cut them or just cut a hole and cover that with a grille or perforated plate....
Maybe I'll go wild and angle the woofers while I'm at it and make new door pockets to incorporate them.

Well time to think things over...


----------



## HondAudio

Wesayso said:


> Sorry for the later reaction, I think I have the tweeter pods under control. I'm having a pair 3D printed, they should be in my hands by the end of next week. I modelled them in Autodesk Inventor, not the ideal app for curved subjects but they should turn out o.k. Here's a preview:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm letting them print in a black Nylon. Can't wait to see them. QUOTE]
> 
> 3-D printing? Where are you having this done?


----------



## HondAudio

OldOneEye said:


> Love the car, for the subwoofer install I have actually seen a few installs where they would cut a hole in the area where the steering linkage goes (well, several small ones) and then free air the woofer into the passenger comparent. It works out well if you want to cut holes. Also seen it in a Mk I MR2 with a 15" woofer in the front trunk firing through a number of holes in the bulkhead/firewall. You can get some serious bass for the simple reason that it's so well sealed between the car and the front boot.


I saw an install in CA&E or CSR in the late 90s where the entire front stage was a pair of 10" pro audio drivers and 2 tweeters. The 10" drivers were mounted into the transition between the floor and firewall, *under* the pedals, and the tweeters were mounted into the expanded metal which covered the 10s.


----------



## Wesayso

HondAudio said:


> 3-D printing? Where are you having this done?


shapeways.com
Located in the Netherlands but they ship worldwide.

I have used the US firm approto.com as far back as 2005 for a project I'm working on but they seem to have troubles with their website. Back then the resolution wasn't there yet but it is now (0.1 mm layers)


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Wesayso said:


> Maybe I'll go wild and angle the woofers while I'm at it and make new door pockets to incorporate them.
> 
> Well time to think things over...


That is the exact thing I did to mine. I have 996 door pulls
on order now so that the door pull angle and the top of the
part I'm making for the woofers matches up. It will end up
looking like a 996's pocket with an 8 stuck in it.


----------



## Jersey Strong

That red is really nice.


----------



## Wesayso

FLYONWALL9 said:


> That is the exact thing I did to mine. I have 996 door pulls
> on order now so that the door pull angle and the top of the
> part I'm making for the woofers matches up. It will end up
> looking like a 996's pocket with an 8 stuck in it.


There lies my problem. I want to keep the classic look. I like the way it looks right now so if I can get away with it I'll keep it this way. 
I finished the other door this weekend and am very happy with the results. Can't say if it's the shape of the tweeter pod or the fact that it's 5 degrees more on axis but it's more transparent now. I sealed off the big holes in the drivers door with 1mm sheet aluminium and alu butyl and will open up the passenger side again to do the same. 
I have a faint rattle somewhere behind the instrument cluster if I turn up the sub (30 Hz) but that's not an easy place to access and hunt it down to cure it.
When can I expect an update on your ride FLY?


----------



## Wesayso

Jersey Strong said:


> That red is really nice.


I agree. When I bought the car I wasn't sure about that. I did like it immediatly but looked kinda flashy. Now I love the red/black theme. I need to dye the seats again but that takes some guts to try myself.


----------



## Wesayso

Finished the trunk last weekend. I bought a Hertz GR200 grille set to cover the JBL sub, perfect fit :laugh:










I also went back into the doors and covered the big holes with aluminium sheet and deadener mats. Over the last weeks I'm trying to get the tuning part done. I'm pretty close, it sounds tight, almost well balanced and open. And that is with the door pockets in place. My plan is to use the second Hertz 8" grille to cover the door pocket in front of the midbass. Just cut it in 2 and make a nice frame around it is what I intend to do.


----------



## roger_2

Super!! I was in the Porsch museum and couldn't realize a SQ sound like yours in these fantastic machines!!


----------



## Wesayso

Thanks! I guess 
I suppose the music the car makes by itself is always going to be better than anything I can play inside....


----------



## roger_2

fully agree!!


----------



## astrochex

Wesayso said:


> Thanks! I guess
> I suppose the music the car makes by itself is always going to be better than anything I can play inside....


I do miss that about the '82 SC I had for 3 years. Brakes and the sound are what I miss the most.

With your new system, you will have great music whether it is on or off.


----------



## Acjwatt

WeSay - been following your system install with interest, I have a very similar car (a 1985 black porsche 911) and intended to install a similar system - the same original pioneer speakers, plus the pioneer deh r88ii HU and D220 amp, at the same time as a new alarm is fitted. Install is today.

Will let you know how it goes - the spot you have placed your crossover is genius, I am definitely going to do that, so thanks.

With regards to your seats: if they are leather - they look like it - there is a really simple and pretty amazing fix. Just add red shoe cream (check amazon) and buff it up.

I have blue seats in mine and some blue shoe cream made them come up looking almost new (save the piping which is still shot).

Give it a go - I think you'll be surprised.

Alex


----------



## Wesayso

Acjwatt said:


> WeSay - been following your system install with interest, I have a very similar car (a 1985 black porsche 911) and intended to install a similar system - the same original pioneer speakers, plus the pioneer deh r88ii HU and D220 amp, at the same time as a new alarm is fitted. Install is today.
> 
> Will let you know how it goes - the spot you have placed your crossover is genius, I am definitely going to do that, so thanks.
> 
> With regards to your seats: if they are leather - they look like it - there is a really simple and pretty amazing fix. Just add red shoe cream (check amazon) and buff it up.
> 
> I have blue seats in mine and some blue shoe cream made them come up looking almost new (save the piping which is still shot).
> 
> Give it a go - I think you'll be surprised.
> 
> Alex


Can't wait to hear about your results. Where are you going to put the tweeters? Same place as I have? If I had to do it again I probably mount them in the top black bar and more towards the dash. 
Good tip on the leather seats! I'll try that. I wanted to re dye them but I'm going to try the shoe cream first.
If you leave the door pockets on it will have an effect on the frequency responce around 800 Hz. I have them off at the moment and plan to make some new door pockets that won't block the woofer. I'm having a spacer made for the woofers to aim them slightly inwards and upwards to help the midrange a bit. 
My bass is excelent with the front mounted sub and the 6.5" woofers but something is lacking in the midrange 1.25 k to about 3.15 k. Can't get the sound I like in that range. The Pioneers where exelent speakers but the Hertz are an upgrade. The Bass is different. The Pioneers give you a "boom" where the Hertz are more snappy. I have them crossed over at 80 Hz.


----------



## Acjwatt

Wesayso said:


> Can't wait to hear about your results. Where are you going to put the tweeters? Same place as I have? If I had to do it again I probably mount them in the top black bar and more towards the dash.
> Good tip on the leather seats! I'll try that. I wanted to re dye them but I'm going to try the shoe cream first.
> If you leave the door pockets on it will have an effect on the frequency responce around 800 Hz. I have them off at the moment and plan to make some new door pockets that won't block the woofer. I'm having a spacer made for the woofers to aim them slightly inwards and upwards to help the midrange a bit.
> My bass is excelent with the front mounted sub and the 6.5" woofers but something is lacking in the midrange 1.25 k to about 3.15 k. Can't get the sound I like in that range. The Pioneers where exelent speakers but the Hertz are an upgrade. The Bass is different. The Pioneers give you a "boom" where the Hertz are more snappy. I have them crossed over at 80 Hz.


I was going to put them where you did - I think there may be a little room where the winders used to be and they are pretty shallow, and I really want to keep it all as discrete as possible.

Try the cream - I don't think you'll want to dye them. Put it on thick and let it dry (it's astonishing that no one looks after the leather properly really) the leather will soak it all up, then buff it off hard and they will look better than new - because they'll have the patina.


----------



## Acjwatt

Just noticed you are running the Pioneer P88-RSII too.

I cannot wait to get it up and running - I have heard great things....

Beginning to wish I'd got a 4 channel amp now.


----------



## mrzapco

that color is beautiful.


----------



## Wesayso

Acjwatt said:


> WeSaySo - been following your system install with interest, I have a very similar car (a 1985 black porsche 911) and intended to install a similar system - the same original pioneer speakers, plus the pioneer deh r88ii HU and D220 amp, at the same time as a new alarm is fitted. *Install is today.*
> 
> Will let you know how it goes - the spot you have placed your crossover is genius, I am definitely going to do that, so thanks.
> 
> Alex


Any results yet?


----------



## Acjwatt

Nothing to report yet I'm afraid. I was going to have everything professionally installed at the same time as I had the alarm installed, but unfortunately apparently there wasn't time to even start on the audio system.

This may be a blessing as it gives me more time to consider precisely what and where everything will be installed - so, if I can learn from your install there is still time.

In the meantime the alarm is done. 

In fact for £40 extra I got the 'full' install which includes remote start. Which is seriously cool. Turn the car off in neutral with the remote, and you can press the remote start button twice - and the car starts ON IT'S OWN. 

It reminds me of the scene in that great Tim Burton movie where the squirming thief says. "Who are you??!'

I'm Batman.

Though of course Batman would have an awesome audio system in his car, probably one that could both deter crime and write top ten hits, and this car doesn't yet have anything that can even do justice to Britney Spears. So - any pointers you, or Fly, or anyone else may have are still gratefully received. 

The big question I have at the moment is what I do with the tweeters. They need to be well placed but discrete. Also - I have a small blue plastic circle that seems to be sewn into the door cloth where the window winder used to be - I don't suppose anyone knows what this is, and whether I could put the tweeter roughly where it has been?

All help gratefully received.

Alex


----------



## Acjwatt

Photos to follow...


----------



## Wesayso

The spot where I have my tweeter isn't a bad spot. But there might be better options. I was like you when I built it, figuring out a way to make it as discrete as possible. I picked that spot to limit the early reflections and there's plenty of room behind the tweeter in that spot. But after driving with the tweeters mounted flush I started missing some high notes. That's when I put spacers (using the wave guides that came with the pioneers, cut at an angle) to angle the tweeters in a bit. That helped a lot. If I were doing it again I'd probably take some double sided tape and try a few different mounting spots.

The spot where I have them does give an excellent image with the time alignment on the P88RSII. But I must admit I have been battling some sibilance resulting in sharp "Essses". I got that with both tweeters, the Pioneer and Hertz and with Head Unit power and a seperate amplifier (Genesis Stereo 60). So it might be the spot itself causing diffraction or (still some early) reflections or maybe I'm just super sensitive to those sounds. A combination of EQ and Time Alignment goes a long way to cure it.
Another thing I'm working on is the hole in frequency responce on the left side. The right side sound seems more complete and pleasant. Even after seperate left and right EQ. I figured this must be because the left (driver side in my case) woofer is way off axis.
As you can see I somewhat let go of the "discrete" option but still tried to keep it classy. With the current tweeter mount I have more than doubled the size of the tweeter (lol).









I sometimes wonder/dream what one could do with a Pioneer P99RS and some mids in the kick panels and the rest where I have it now.

I do hope to hear how Fly is doing with his 3 way install soon .


----------



## Acjwatt

Essentially, I need to get this:











In this:










Very similar to yours wouldn’t you say so?


----------



## Wesayso

By the way, because of your tip on the leather seats I ordered this from ebay:
Grison Leather Restore Cream/Balm









I ordered the Red and Cherry Red and plan to mix them 50/50 for a close colour match.

I also got a black brushed suede dash mat on order to help tame high frequency reflections.

All in all it has almost been a year since I started this project and it has been a fun but bumpy road to learn about this stuff. The funny part is I accept music from all kind of devices when I'm at work or in our other car but I get super critical when I'm in the 911. It is way better that all those other radio's and stereo's but it's the only place I always seem to find something to complain about :laugh:.


----------



## Wesayso

Acjwatt said:


> Essentially, I need to get this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very similar to yours wouldn’t you say so?


Yes it is! Good looking car and good equipment. I love the look of the P88RSII in the dash. It's modern but somehow fits well in this classic interior.

Your doors have the bar in there behind the outer skin, that should help get the woofers play low without to much resonance so you won't miss a sub much. Then again, if you have the space available (the smugglers box) why not use it .
You should see my mirrors shake (lol). No bar in mine. I have some 964 cup mirrors I planned to install but haven't done so yet. Still have some backdate plans too. I love the pre '73 look with the smaller bumpers.

Are you going to do the install yourself now? We can help you trough it, I'm sure.

If you have the time, take a picture of your seats! I'd love to see your results.


----------



## Acjwatt

Wesayso said:


> Your doors have the bar in there behind the outer skin, that should help get the woofers play low without to much resonance so you won't miss a sub much.


I have a bar? where? I'll have a look tomorrow, and why will it help the woofers play low?



Wesayso said:


> If you have the time, take a picture of your seats! I'd love to see your results.


I shall do. You are going to laugh when you see the difference that cream makes on your seats, I promise you, they will look awesome. Make sure you mix it up really well if you are going to use both though. My preference would be to check to see which is nearest to the original colour when they turn up and just use that so you don't get streaks.

It's funny you should mention backdating a bit - I am going to do a subtle backdate too: remove the tail, strip and anodise the metal around the windows and add trim, like the headlight rings, where possible. I’ve ordered smoked black repeaters of 911designs so that I can make them more subtle without getting rid of them completely. Might polish up the fuchs too.

First things first though is this system. I was considering putting the amp behind the dash in the trunk, would you recommend putting it under the seat instead? Isn’t it pretty hard to get the seat out?

I’ll send you shots of my seats btw - which looked dead, until I polished them up….


----------



## nineball

Acjwatt said:


> First things first though is this system. I was considering putting the amp behind the dash in the trunk, would you recommend putting it under the seat instead? Isn’t it pretty hard to get the seat out?


i mounted mine under the seat for ease of install. i only had to run a single power wire from the battery into the cabin. if the amp was mounted in the front i would have to fit speaker wires and rca cables.










getting the seat out is very easy - 4 bolts, possibly with allen heads depending on year. move it all the way to the front, remove rear bolts. move it to the back, remove front bolts.


----------



## HondAudio

Wesayso said:


> By the way, because of your tip on the leather seats I ordered this from ebay:
> Grison Leather Restore Cream/Balm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I'd be scared that stuff would rub off on your clothes :O


----------



## Wesayso

Mine is under the seat as well:








And in the front trunk:








:laugh: 

And a whole lot bigger than that PDX Alpine amp, I guess they will draw more current and give less power too...

I had to hack up the heatsink to be able to move the seat. I bought it second hand and it isn't going anywhere so I had no problem with that.

The seat is out fast. Like nineball said, remove rear bolts, slide the seat back and remove the 2 in the frond, lift seat out, done... You might have the DME brain mounted there though.

The bar I mentioned is a reinforcement bar behind the outer door skin. It would help keep the outer skin from vibrating if you can somehow fixate it to the doorskin in a non permanent way. Check Fly's plans, I thought he mentioned doing something like that.


----------



## Wesayso

HondAudio said:


> I'd be scared that stuff would rub off on your clothes :O


It shouldn't, it is ment for seats and sofa's, bags and car interiors... 
I'll find out soon enough .


----------



## Acjwatt

Wesayso said:


> It shouldn't, it is ment for seats and sofa's, bags and car interiors...
> I'll find out soon enough .


That was my wife's worry too. It's not a worry though - so long as:

(1) you don't use it on any vinyl, which doesn't absorb it the same way.

(2) if you are generous with it you leave it to soak in and then buff it off.

I'll take photos tomorrow. 

A.


----------



## Acjwatt

Okay so this is what the seat leather looks like now - having looked like the blue equivalent of yours:










- and this is the door space I have to fit the tweeters into:










The question I have for all you Porsche audio fiends is - what is that plastic circle doing there? is it just cover for the old winder point?

Nineball - that is quite an install! Thanks for the heads up. Where did you get the xtc foam baffles and the damp pro?

I don't have a garage so I'm not sure I can get into the sort of depths you guys can BUT it is all about planning and so, what I can do is plan it out to the last measure, and then give very precise instructions to the install guy.

Alex


----------



## Wesayso

Nice looking seats! I hope mine turn out anything like that.

That plastic circle is most likely a cover for the hole the winders used to sit.
I had that hole in my hardboard door cover but the leather wasn't cut.
Anyway, it should make your choise easy where to mount the tweeters .

If your going to let someone do the install make sure they make a proper baffle to mount the woofer. In one of my early posts I put up a link to a simple baffle they could make. Also make sure they deaden the door outer skin and cover the bigger holes of the inner skin. See my doors for an example:








I covered the bigger holes with aluminium sheetmetal and covered that with alu butyl mats.

I also glued MLV to the outer door skin but sealing up the doors gets you your midbass sounds.

Too bad you don't have the room to do it yourself. It requires simple tools and isn't all that hard to do. The reward is much bigger if you did it yourself.

Thanks for posting the pictures! I'm looking forward to doing my seats.

P.S. forgot you're in London, check out: caraudio for damping materials, I've ordered from them. I see they have fewer choises these days but the Silent Coat is good stuff at an even better price. They had more brands a year ago.


----------



## Acjwatt

Wow - your doors have really come along. 

Okay, so I've done a little reading about deadening following that link you provided (thanks!) and the Silent Coat looks like a necessity. I'll just get a load of that and make sure it gets used.

With regards to the baffle. You mentioned that you'd seen a baffle mounting design on Pelican - but I couldn't find it, or the link you mentioned...  would you mind posting it again? I take it you are installing 13cm woofers? 

What did you think about working in one of the xtc foam baffles nineball used in his install? I've read elsewhere on this forum that if you cover the baffle with resin you don't need to seal the door. I wonder if anyone that works in car audio can give us an idea of what is better - a sealed door, or a sealed foam baffle cover...? 

Al

p.s. in other news I have been considering getting the infinity basslink all-in-one sub - which might make popping one in the front a little easier.


----------



## Wesayso

Here you go, I just looked trough my posts and didn't see the link. I thought I had put it up, here it is anyway:
291793-mounting-door-speakers

That's the one I used. Only some small sanding needed to fit it perfect.

My original Pioneers were 17 cm and the Hertz ML 1600 I have now are advertised as 16.5 cm I think but the mounting holes lined up the same.

Do you have the 13 cm Pio set? In that case I would recomment getting the sub .

I didn't use the foam baffles, I thought about using them and cut the bottom out so it would essentially be a rain shield but figured the speakers were mounted in a reasonable dry part of the door. When I'm ready to put my spacer in even less of the speaker will protrude into the door but still enough to be able to get wet. I'd say if it makes you feel better use them. Can't hurt and you can even do some tuning with them or so I read on this site....

To use the foam baffle as the enclusure you would need a woofer suitable to the task. I'm not sure the Pioneers are as they were ment for IB mounting. That would make the foam baffle to small to use but sealing the door would do good things for midbass. How low do these 5.25" speakers go?


----------



## trojan fan

Acjwatt said:


> p.s. in other news I have been considering getting the infinity basslink all-in-one sub - which might make popping one in the front a little easier.



IMO really not worth the money.....did you make it to the royal wedding


----------



## Acjwatt

Thanks for the link! Do you think I'll need that if the speakers I am reinstalling the 13cm ones are the same size as the ones already there?



Wesayso said:


> Do you have the 13 cm Pio set? In that case I would recomment getting the sub .


I thought I could get away with it because I have these old ones (I'm not sure of the model) which sound pretty good behind me :










Trojan fan (trojan records?) - why do you say they are "not worth the money"


----------



## Wesayso

I would still use the mdf baffles. It makes a rigid mount for the speakers.
You didn't mention those speakers in the back before! 

What I love about my setup is that all sounds come from the front making a good image and stage. It would be harder to achieve with sound comming from the rear. 
You have a 2 channel amp right? So the back speakers would run off the head unit? You could try to feed them with the subwoofer channel from the head unit and set that HU up in network mode. You could also choose to go active running the tweeters from the head unit as well. I did that for quite some time. It depends on the volume (SPL) you want to listen to.

But I have the most power going to my sub and don't think it would sound well balanced to run the back from the HU. Another option is running standard mode with front/back speakers and figure out where to put the fader front/rear to make it sound good to you. My gues is it would give you more of a head phones kind of sound used with time alignment but I didn't try so not sure. It might work out fine?

*Do you want a front stage/image or just music everywhere? That's the most important question to ask yourself.* 

I used to be quite happy with music everywhere in the car in the past. I decided to try out the front stage/image route and that's the main reason I got the Pioneer P88RS II with its time alignment and left/right eq. You have that same source and need to figure out how you want to use it.

I didn't know what a true front stage sounded like until I got one in my car. My speakers totally disapear and all music is in front and around me, pinpointing each instrument in the recording. Its quite magical if you get it right. It's like beeing there while they are recording it. Not all recordings shine in that department though.


----------



## Acjwatt

Wesayso said:


> You have a 2 channel amp right? So the back speakers would run off the head unit?


I think you have pointed out a serious problem here. I have four speakers, six including the crossover - and a really decent two channel amp. I bought the amp because it was supposed to work with the HU really well.

BUT

I am going to lack control over the stage if I run everything on each side to both. 

SO

What do I do? buy another amp? and - if so - do I have to splash out on another fairly expensive one or if I'm going to use the speakers in the back to add a little bass, can the amp be a little less pro?

I think I may have to jump off your (awesome) build thread here and open this one up to the floor...


----------



## Acjwatt

Have you tried the cream yet? I do hope it works as well for you as it did me - very satisfying.


----------



## Wesayso

Acjwatt said:


> Have you tried the cream yet? I do hope it works as well for you as it did me - very satisfying.


The cream wasn't in yet. I recieved it today so I'll know soon!

My new HDPE spacers are ready too. Just mounted them but I'll need 2 longer (M4 x 55mm) bolts to make sure it stays in place. I had a few M4 x 50 but they barely touch the threads. It's a 10 degree angled spacer. I do hope it helps in the midrange (1K to 4K), it's angled up and in.








Looking good though...


----------



## howlndog

Looking REAL good... please post your impressions once they're screwed down.


----------



## Wesayso

Don't worry, I will. How's your project coming along?


----------



## howlndog

Wesayso said:


> Don't worry, I will. How's your project coming along?


Not well on the audio front, unfortunately. But I've made some progress on the motor.... valve adjustment, oil leaks, etc.

For now, I'm living vicariously through you.


----------



## Wesayso

Acjwatt said:


> Have you tried the cream yet? I do hope it works as well for you as it did me - very satisfying.


Tried it today on the passenger seat. Made a huge difference. It's amazing what that stuff can hide! It can't save the seats completely though, the cracks are too old for that. I'll post pictures hopefully tomorrow.


----------



## Wesayso

I promissed to post about the results I got using the spacers. To sum up the results: I'm quite satisfied! The gap I experienced in the FR responce on the drivers side seems gone. Not after I changed a whole lot of settings though. Going back and forth with my radioshack DB meter and test tones while waiting on a parking lot for my son's swimming lesson to end .
That endavour lead to my car not starting a few days later because I had drained the battery by listening to much over the weekend. :blush:

Anyway, after another week of trying different setting on the crossovers and plenty of EQ/TA I'm finally getting somewhere. I haven't touched the EQ and other settings in 2 days! That's new for me. I'd always find something to change or try to make right. Now I'm just listening to the songs and enjoying the fruits of my labour. The sharp Esses are gone and overall sound has improved. 

Before this change there were a lot of tracks that sounded great but a lot of my favorite music didn't sound that hot. Now most every track I play just works. 

Scouting this website for new tracks to try I did listen to the drum track on the Focal disk (disk 1, track 6). I was amazed and thrilled! I am sure glad I persisted to keep trying new things and reading new theories on here and trying them (to some extend) in my car.

For kicks I tried this track from MJ today: 




(the album track from "Blood on the Dance Floor")

The scream somewhere in the middle cought me of guard and made me smile...

I'm also liking old tracks from David Bowie like "Golden Years" and "Fame". Supertramp with "Dreamer" is fun too as is Stone Temple Pilots with a couple of their acoustic tracks like "Pretty Penny". Good recordings! On a suggestion of a co-worker from my GF I tried "Yello - The Race". I like it even though it's not my cup of tea. I'm still a Rocker and like Led Zeppelin, Van Halen and stuff like that. I'm glad those bands sound better and better in the car.

Still hunting for more of those tracks that image well and sound great (and fit my musical preference). I'm sure there is a lot out there I'd like once I find out. I haven't even tried all of the music I own yet. It makes the trip from and to work every day much more enjoyable. And I didn't complain about that before, driving my favorite car every day.

More to come, no doubt


----------



## Acjwatt

Wesayso said:


> I promissed to post about the results I got using the spacers. To sum up the results: I'm quite satisfied! The gap I experienced in the FR responce on the drivers side seems gone. Not after I changed a whole lot of settings though. Going back and forth with my radioshack DB meter and test tones while waiting on a parking lot for my son's swimming lesson to end .
> That endavour lead to my car not starting a few days later because I had drained the battery by listening to much over the weekend. :blush:
> 
> Anyway, after another week of trying different setting on the crossovers and plenty of EQ/TA I'm finally getting somewhere. I haven't touched the EQ and other settings in 2 days! That's new for me. I'd always find something to change or try to make right. Now I'm just listening to the songs and enjoying the fruits of my labour. The sharp Esses are gone and overall sound has improved.
> 
> Before this change there were a lot of tracks that sounded great but a lot of my favorite music didn't sound that hot. Now most every track I play just works.
> 
> Scouting this website for new tracks to try I did listen to the drum track on the Focal disk (disk 1, track 6). I was amazed and thrilled! I am sure glad I persisted to keep trying new things and reading new theories on here and trying them (to some extend) in my car.
> 
> The scream somewhere in the middle cought me of guard and made me smile...
> 
> I'm also liking old tracks from David Bowie like "Golden Years" and "Fame". Supertramp with "Dreamer" is fun too as is Stone Temple Pilots with a couple of their acoustic tracks like "Pretty Penny". Good recordings! On a suggestion of a co-worker from my GF I tried "Yello - The Race". I like it even though it's not my cup of tea. I'm still a Rocker and like Led Zeppelin, Van Halen and stuff like that. I'm glad those bands sound better and better in the car.
> 
> Still hunting for more of those tracks that image well and sound great (and fit my musical preference). I'm sure there is a lot out there I'd like once I find out. I haven't even tried all of the music I own yet. It makes the trip from and to work every day much more enjoyable. And I didn't complain about that before, driving my favorite car every day.
> 
> More to come, no doubt


Sounds good - here's some suggested test tracks:

For vocals: 
I've Got My Music - Marvin Gaye 
He Love's Me - Jill Scott
Rescue Me - Fontona Bass

For atmosphere:
The Ipress File - John Barry
Windmills of Your Mind - Sting
Death - White Lies

For Bass:
Harry (Barenoize Remix) - Medison
The Raft - Fat Freddy's Drop
Idiots (AudioJAck remix) - Vandal 

For Midrange:
The Power of Love - Huey Lewis and the News
Derezzed - Daft Punk
Paint it Black - The Rolling Stones

For Treble:
Make the Road By Walking - The Menahan Street Band
Rock Steady - Aretha Franklin
Don't Fear the Reaper - The Blue Oyster Cult (for the cowbell)

p.s. the Idiots track should be a compulsory test track for all systems - it's worth picking up off iTunes, you'll be able to really see your stage with it too.


----------



## Wesayso

Thanks for the suggestions! I allready tried a few.
That John Barry stuf has some pretty low extention, tried a few of his tracks...


----------



## Acjwatt

Wesayso said:


> Thanks for the suggestions! I allready tried a few.
> That John Barry stuf has some pretty low extention, tried a few of his tracks...


Yes - for atmosphere I almost just said 'anything by John Barry'.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Do you like jazz or instrument only tracks? If so, a must have is Stanley Clarke. I cant
recall offhand any particular songs some are better than others. But, I know if I can 
listen to his tracks at moderate levels then I have built things correctly. Most all his
recordings are of very high quality. Simply put, even if your not a fan of jazz you will
be amazed at what a person can do to a bass guitar. If I can think of others I'll forward
if you wish.

Cheers,
Scott


----------



## Wesayso

Thanks Scott,

I missed you around here lately, glad to see you're back. Hope you're doing well?

I never have been much of a Jazz listener, the closest I came to Jazz was something like this:






I'll look into Stanley Clarke, I like instumental music and from what I saw on Youtube I think I'm going to like his music.
I was always guitar oriented, listened to things like Vai, Zappa, Van Halen and of coarse Led Zeppelin. But I always try to keep an open mind on different kinds of music. But trough the years Rock has been the biggest part of my musical journey. Now I find myself looking for songs that image well (lol). Why? because it works so well in the car....


----------



## bertholomey

I have Stanley Clarke's "Toys of Men". pretty good album - excellent recording. If you don't have SMV "Thunder", You should pick it up. Stanley Clarke, Victor Wooten, and Marcus Miller - arguably three of the best players in the world. My friends who do not like jazz like that album.

BTW, fantastic build, and a beautiful car. I got through 3/4's of the build, and I'll finish it tomorrow


----------



## Wesayso

Acjwatt said:


> Yes - for atmosphere I almost just said 'anything by John Barry'.


Ever since I was a kid and saw the James Bond movie Goldfinger I was hooked on that title song. I just love Shirley Bassey's voice and that music together. Diamonds are Forever is another favorite. I just never knew it was John Barry.


----------



## Wesayso

bertholomey said:


> I have Stanley Clarke's "Toys of Men". pretty good album - excellent recording. If you don't have SMV "Thunder", You should pick it up. Stanley Clarke, Victor Wooten, and Marcus Miller - arguably three of the best players in the world. My friends who do not like jazz like that album.
> 
> BTW, fantastic build, and a beautiful car. I got through 3/4's of the build, and I'll finish it tomorrow


Now I'll have to check out that album. I'll hunt it down and order it. I checked out some tracks on Youtube and liked them already.

Thanks for the compliments, a while back I have read your redesign, classy stuff! Our other car is an E46 but I don't think my GF will let me touch it....


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Wes,

OHHHH, I'm around. Remember my handle, fly on wall hehe... 

I wish I could remember my fav Stanley song so I could tell you which to get but
I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. BUT this one song I'm thinking of
is so dynamic, I'll see if I can find it.

Another one of my fav songs to tune with that has LOTS going on and will test/show
you every little detail is Tracy Chapman - Mountains O'Things. The start to the song
is a bit hallow but once it gets going and settles in, its a super recording. I would just
download it rather than buying the entire album. It is a bit hard to tune her voice proper
but once you have that worked out most everything should sound pretty good from
then on. Just be careful with the bass once it starts, with your sub in the front boot
it may be hard to hear over excursion. Its VERY low but should sound killer in your
car for that very reason. I've been seriously considering moving my OZ's to the front.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1d8-4cwZgM 

Anyway, health is about the same; I make due or the best of it I can. Thanks for
asking! Its so nucelur hot here that working on my car is kind of out of the question,
I need a shop with AC. ! ! ! I did go buy some more stuff for my install, and something
to remove all the factory glue from the interior metal. HOPE to pull the rest of my int.
tomorrow AM before it gets too hot so I can apply that stuff and move onto my sound
deadening. We'll see.

Keep up the good work..............
Cheers,
Scott


----------



## rsfaze

love me some old porsche cars, simple but nice.


----------



## Wesayso

After playing with my system as is for a long time I can't resist the urge to try different tweeters. I've had 2 different domes in here and it's time to try a ring radiator. I've opted for the vifa XT25 with the small flange.
Found a thread on here how to remove that flange.
First I thought I only needed to make small insert rings for my current tweeter pods. Sadly that wasn't true. The tweeters were a bit bigger than I expected, just a few mm's.
So I made some new CAD files and took that opertunity to angle them a bit more on axis. 15 degrees more to be exact! The ring radiator, at least in this size, must be somewhat on axis if you read all the stories. (exceptions can be found though)
Here's a quick impression:









_(note: tweeter is just a quick sketch, not based on real dimensions)_








_(inside showing the mounting tabs, tweeter should lock in there)_

The pods (again 3D prints from Shapeways.com) should arrive some time next week.


----------



## veleno

Great thread!

Going through this thread seeing your first install to what its become recently is real progress. Keep up the great work (and 3D drawings as well)!

I have a '79 SC that I'm currently working on and hope to have it on the road real soon. After that, it's stereo time!


----------



## Wesayso

Thanks for the compliments!

The first piece of music I installed was this:









It is mono but I still love it! 

Not the best choise for an SQ car though... it can get quite loud!


----------



## bertholomey

Wow.... That is beautiful! Piece of art..... Tough decision each time you get in the car - what do I want to hear on this trip.


----------



## bigdtx

I can't post links yet but check out Pat Metheney - "Minuano" I like to use that tune for comparing speakers.


----------



## Wesayso

bertholomey said:


> Wow.... That is beautiful! Piece of art..... Tough decision each time you get in the car - what do I want to hear on this trip.


True! But not a bad choise to have


----------



## FLYONWALL9

You are one slick dude! I wish you were over here in the states. I've been kinda dead on my install helping motorcycle racers gear up for next year with new paint jobs . 

Anyway, audio here not Porsche's. lol those should look sharp! if they are anything like the last. 

I REEEEEALLY need to pull my engine like this and clean and do a GOOD overlooking.


----------



## Wesayso

The prints are in!

First pictures:

























You can see I put the tweeter in a bit deeper than in the standard XT25 flange. More like the big flange XT25 and the scan speak siblings. Like I took a big flange and heat it up a bit to much


----------



## The Baron Groog

Very nice, how much are these pods costing you?


----------



## Wesayso

They don't come cheap I'm afraid... about 75 euro for the 2 of them.


----------



## Wesayso

A more true to life color picture...


----------



## The Baron Groog

Wesayso said:


> They don't come cheap I'm afraid... about 75 euro for the 2 of them.


Pretty reasonable for the effort involved-how much of the design process will they handle for you?


----------



## Wesayso

They only print 3D models and have a platform for users to sell their model to others. So you'd have to make the 3D cad model to get a print like that. So basicly: none ;-).
I modeled these in Autodesk Inventor Software. Saved them as high quality stl file and uploaded to Shapeways. About 10-15 workdays later you get your model.

Are you looking for something specific? I may be able to help you out...


----------



## The Baron Groog

Wesayso said:


> They only print 3D models and have a platform for users to sell their model to others. So you'd have to make the 3D cad model to get a print like that. So basicly: none ;-).
> I modeled these in Autodesk Inventor Software. Saved them as high quality stl file and uploaded to Shapeways. About 10-15 workdays later you get your model.
> 
> Are you looking for something specific? I may be able to help you out...


Ok, no I wasn't loooking for anything specific, just interested. I'll be in touch if I do need anything!


----------



## Wesayso

Didn't have the time yet to get the XT tweeters in. Just listened to the current setup and those Vifa's better be good! I'm quite satisfied with the current sound in the car and am wondering why I'm doing this at all . I do hope it's worth all the trouble but if it's not I'll just swap the space one tweeters back in there.
I messed up one Vifa due to tight tollerances in the 3D models. I allready had ordered another because I made a little mistake when measuring the tweeter which left a tiny dent in the surround. So I'll use the messed up tweeter as a fitting model.
Hope to have some time during this week to get things done. Maybe then I can move on to my home speaker project again.


----------



## P8ntballa57

I like the car! I dig the simple install too.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Simple install... HEHE... 

J/K Wesayco  Happy New Years buddy....


----------



## Wesayso

New tweets are in... I won't comment to much on their sound yet but so far I'm pleased.








I'll know more in a few weeks after some tuning...

This song had me worried for a bit:




Was it my sub or mids bottoming out? Pfew, no... it's in the song.
No doubt the music is based on samples... but I like it!


----------



## Wesayso

After a week with these I'm quite happy with them. I rate them above the Space One tweeters personally. Did some tuning on friday and listening the rest of the weekend and I am quite pleased. Hope it stays that way .


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Wesayso said:


> After a week with these I'm quite happy with them. I rate them above the Space One tweeters personally. Did some tuning on friday and listening the rest of the weekend and I am quite pleased. Hope it stays that way .


THOSE LOOK RATHER SMART GOOD WORK SIR!


----------



## veleno

That's a pretty good song, I'm gonna search for it


----------



## Wesayso

veleno said:


> That's a pretty good song, I'm gonna search for it


I agree... her youtube version recorded at Sing Sing is even better but I can't find a lossless version of that out yet.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

GOOD STUFF HERE MY FRIEND!!


----------



## howlndog

Those tweets look great... and I'm grooving to Kimbra as I type (thanks for the introduction)! Fly, Wesayso; check your PMs.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

howlndog said:


> Those tweets look great... and I'm grooving to Kimbra as I type (thanks for the introduction)! Fly, Wesayso; check your PMs.


DAWG, I did buddy and sent you a reply. Also, check my build thread for photo's of said items. I was simply amazed how cheap shipping was to your hood. Now I wanna move to Canada.... If only I knew how to drive in the snow VS the sugar sand beaches I live on.


----------



## kenikh

Nice to see the pelican cross pollination over here. My '69S needs a lot more than a stereo these days, but after I get it buttoned back up, the one I have planned will be similar to the one I am putting in my DD now:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...a-sportwagen-sq-install-hat-morel-os-d-s.html

Great build!


----------



## FLYONWALL9

You'll find a LOAD of us Pelican's here


----------



## kenikh

Sweet


----------



## Wesayso

FLYONWALL9 said:


> You'll find a LOAD of us Pelican's here


Invasion of the 911's... maybe we can outnumber the Honda's after all?


----------



## w8lifter21

ne of my favorite cars, nice work!


----------



## Porsche

FLYONWALL9 said:


> You'll find a LOAD of us Pelican's here


I am a Pelican guy as well, 911 baby


----------



## veleno

Wesayso said:


> Invasion of the 911's... maybe we can outnumber the Honda's after all?


I'd like to see that, but I belong to both sides!


----------



## Wesayso

veleno said:


> I'd like to see that, but I belong to both sides!


No pictures?


----------



## Wesayso

[Off Topic]

Now this is a car I wouldn't mind owning:





I am a bit curious what sound system options are available, seeing how Rob is a Singer. 
Very cool cars, I have a picture of the Orange one on my Desktop since 2009...

This one:









I would pick Black or Slate Grey though...

[/Off Topic]


----------



## nineball

if you have the cash to buy a singer you can afford any sound system you want


----------



## FLYONWALL9

dittos I've been trying to see if they would sell the bumpers and rear wing but never get a reply.... They really trick cars...


----------



## Wesayso

Right when I'm at a point that I'm satisfied with the sound I have my 4 channel acts up. This morning I had an apointment to get my hearing checked. Been having some problems with static in one of my ears (god no! I can't have that) and when I returned eveything was still playing fine. An hour and a half later I drove up to work, no sound from the sub and woofers. Only tweeters playing and my USB drive powered up fine. It gets its power from the same line as the amp.
I'm almost at work and suddenly everything comes back. On my lunch break I stopped to get some new fuses for the amp, 2x 25 amp, and replaced them. No problems since but what the heck was that! Granted it was minus 7 degrees celsius outside but I never had a problem like that before.
I still think it wasn't the amp fuses though. But it could be the remote turn on wire. I've actually split that one into 2 fused wires and the amp in the boot turned on fine.
I'll rig up a relais to turn them on when the weather allows me.

Well, the hearing test showed I have a dip at 1 Khz, in both ears. It might be something heredital though, meaning I've always had it. I just never bothered to check my hearing before. It isn't a big problem (in terms of hearing loss, but it's down quite a bit) and absolutely symetrical. It explains my raise on the 1 Khz band on the EQ (only +2 db) though . What a day... Turns out my static noise in the ear is due to my jaw joint beeing stressed (hope you call it that way). Hope I can solve it because it sucks. Glad its not a hearing problem though but I'm not sure what to make of my dip.... I think I've always had it? I like how symetrical my hearing is though, that helps!


----------



## Wesayso

Update: I've been playing around with rear fill but decided against it. The reason: pure and simple, not enough processing power available and I don't want to add more powered devices.
After removing the rear speakers I did a re-tune and changed my slopes to first order based on the latest thread from Mr. Bateman. Wow, never been this happy yet! Referenced thread
Based on Patrick's write-up about ringing and phase errors I was curious if that was what I was unhappy with so many times. I had cured most of those though with the 24 db slopes I was using but I got curious. Changed it to 6 db slopes on woofer and tweeter (still have a protective cap at ~ 1500 Hz). Woofer is at 2K 6 db and tweeter at 5k 6 db. Quite a gap between them but it just works. Cleanest midrange I have had yet and it images like crazy. It is spooky listening at night with all the lights off. You'd swear the singers are there in front of you. (a bit to the right of coarse ).
Stage is deeper after the retune and much more believable. I don't know the frequency response but maybe Patrick is on to something and phase is one of the most important things to get right.
I hope I can keep my hands of the dails this time. I need at least to document these settings. Still using part of the auto EQ as base so it will be hard to document. I guess I'll use a voltmeter to document voltages at the amp for 0 db test tones or something. I've been listening to this tune for 3 days straight and I'm still impressed with it.

To be continued...


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Wesayso said:


> Update: I've been playing around with rear fill but decided against it. The reason: pure and simple, not enough processing power available and I don't want to add more powered devices.
> After removing the rear speakers I did a re-tune and changed my slopes to first order based on the latest thread from Mr. Bateman. Wow, never been this happy yet! Referenced thread
> Based on Patrick's write-up about ringing and phase errors I was curious if that was what I was unhappy with so many times. I had cured most of those though with the 24 db slopes I was using but I got curious. Changed it to 6 db slopes on woofer and tweeter (still have a protective cap at ~ 1500 Hz). Woofer is at 2K 6 db and tweeter at 5k 6 db. Quite a gap between them but it just works. Cleanest midrange I have had yet and it images like crazy. It is spooky listening at night with all the lights off. You'd swear the singers are there in front of you. (a bit to the right of coarse ).
> Stage is deeper after the retune and much more believable. I don't know the frequency response but maybe Patrick is on to something and phase is one of the most important things to get right.
> I hope I can keep my hands of the dails this time. I need at least to document these settings. Still using part of the auto EQ as base so it will be hard to document. I guess I'll use a voltmeter to document voltages at the amp for 0 db test tones or something. I've been listening to this tune for 3 days straight and I'm still impressed with it.
> 
> To be continued...


With all the tinkering you like to do, you would LOVE an old ES system. It has the ability to do more things than I have been able to find in any system of its type. Keeping in mind I haven't been able to play with a P9 or F1. 

If I had two of them I would send you one just to mess around with. However, it does not have slopes that low only 72db. but the ability to do all the rest that it does makes up for it. You gotta love it when a system will put chills in you like yours clearly does now. Good job.


----------



## The Baron Groog

Wesayso said:


> Well, the hearing test showed I have a dip at 1 Khz, in both ears. It might be something heredital though, meaning I've always had it. I just never bothered to check my hearing before. It isn't a big problem (in terms of hearing loss, but it's down quite a bit) and absolutely symetrical. It explains my raise on the 1 Khz band on the EQ (only +2 db) though . What a day... Turns out my static noise in the ear is due to my jaw joint beeing stressed (hope you call it that way). Hope I can solve it because it sucks. Glad its not a hearing problem though but I'm not sure what to make of my dip.... I think I've always had it? I like how symetrical my hearing is though, that helps!


Wanna swap cars/ears? I've got a peak at 1k and it drives me nuts! 

You're in The Netherlands right? Plenty of herbal remedies to de-stress jaws


----------



## The Baron Groog

Wesayso said:


> Update: I've been playing around with rear fill but decided against it. The reason: pure and simple, not enough processing power available and I don't want to add more powered devices.
> After removing the rear speakers I did a re-tune and changed my slopes to first order based on the latest thread from Mr. Bateman. Wow, never been this happy yet! Referenced thread
> Based on Patrick's write-up about ringing and phase errors I was curious if that was what I was unhappy with so many times. I had cured most of those though with the 24 db slopes I was using but I got curious. Changed it to 6 db slopes on woofer and tweeter (still have a protective cap at ~ 1500 Hz). Woofer is at 2K 6 db and tweeter at 5k 6 db. Quite a gap between them but it just works. Cleanest midrange I have had yet and it images like crazy. It is spooky listening at night with all the lights off. You'd swear the singers are there in front of you. (a bit to the right of coarse ).
> Stage is deeper after the retune and much more believable. I don't know the frequency response but maybe Patrick is on to something and phase is one of the most important things to get right.
> I hope I can keep my hands of the dails this time. I need at least to document these settings. Still using part of the auto EQ as base so it will be hard to document. I guess I'll use a voltmeter to document voltages at the amp for 0 db test tones or something. I've been listening to this tune for 3 days straight and I'm still impressed with it.
> 
> To be continued...


Funny I was thinking the same after reading his thread-will try it, I've found big "gaps" between drivers to work well before, just not tried it on my car yet. I'd love for it to sort the 1k peak I'm getting in mine-but fear it won't, maybe my ears are more sense at 1k? Damnit!

Have you tried moving the stage to infront of you? That's where mine's sat and I love it, need to improve my RHS width (RHD car) but the rest is nearly spot on-will play with xover as suggested when I get 5mins, looking at the diary that'll be June sometime


----------



## Wesayso

The Baron Groog said:


> Wanna swap cars/ears? I've got a peak at 1k and it drives me nuts!
> 
> You're in The Netherlands right? Plenty of herbal remedies to de-stress jaws


I'll hang on to my ears thanks! 

I didn't even think about that cure! It even mixes well with most music I like. Not sure about driving though....

I noticed on my test I'm sensitive in the 6k-8k (you know Ssssss Tttt), more sensitive than normal if I look at Fletcher Munsen curves...
It drove me nuts in the car but i seem to have found a cure. I had it largely under control with the previous steep curves but dialing down 6K always gives me a rainbow stage on the left (tweeter is mounted low, so not really surpricing).
With the shallow slopes I use now I get to keep the width and no harsh Ssss or Ttt. I can even EQ most of the Ssss out without loosing height but it begins to sound funny. So now I can dail in as much as I can stand. Funny thing is if I remove a bit it seems less detailed sounding. I can leave most of it in now and not be bothered by it as I have been. It used to distract me from the listening experience. I would hear it on other systems too but forget about it. But I could never forget about it in the car. It "jumped" at me... the shallow slope cures that for me. Maybe it was phasing errors?


----------



## Wesayso

The Baron Groog said:


> Funny I was thinking the same after reading his thread-will try it, I've found big "gaps" between drivers to work well before, just not tried it on my car yet. I'd love for it to sort the 1k peak I'm getting in mine-but fear it won't, maybe my ears are more sense at 1k? Damnit!
> 
> Have you tried moving the stage to infront of you? That's where mine's sat and I love it, need to improve my RHS width (RHD car) but the rest is nearly spot on-will play with xover as suggested when I get 5mins, looking at the diary that'll be June sometime


I started out with the stage in front of me. I figured I was the audience so why not have it centered in front of me. But like a lot of the things I tried I read a thread on here and started experimenting . The left side always felt a bit crushed. 
It took a while to get used to the center stage thing but I liked the width it gave me. The realism improved as well. It feels like driving with a cloud of music in front of you. You hear and feel it, but you don't see it. Yet it feels (and sounds) so real. Compared to the center in front of me that always felt more closed in due to half of the stage beeing crushed. I like the open feel and it is one of the hardest parts in a little car to get right. 
I continuously battled with a boxy sound due to the small space. So I decided to keep the center in about the center line of the car and that's where it ended up after doing the time alignment by ear thing from Greg200SE-R. It's not exactly center (probably wrong in competition) but a bit left of center if I compare it to my rear view mirror. But it has me looking to the center of the bonnet, most of the singers end up somewhere on that line.
TA + left/right EQ can give a lot of space. Next thing is more EQ to get rid of the boxed in sound. While playing music I always tried to think how I wanted it to sound, to see if it could be improved on (the tone). Then try some things to see if I could reach that goal. I am getting there slowly. Do I know what I'm doing? No way (lol). But it is a fun challenge right? Some days I think I'm nuts. I enjoy music in my office on one of them small portable radio's. I listen to music while I walk trough our workshop and again enjoy the music. But the minute I sit in the car I get over critical even though it sounds much better in most ways. 
I tried ambio to see if that could help drivers side width to move the center to in front of me again. It didn't give me the width but more surround soud like it was comming from beside you. Like a giant pair of headphones but with the stage in front! I havent found a consistant way with all music. It does wonders on some songs. Maybe you'd need the speakers in front of you closely spaced as in a real ambio setup. But I'm still convinced the side window closest to you would mess up the width again. I do think if you could use the ambio principle with different left/right time delays it could do wonders. I got better guitar sound on my left (Van Halen intro's panned extreme left) with ambio plugin so I think the cancelation on my right ear was doing something worthwile. The left ear gets the wrong delayed signal and the window reflection takes away from the illusion.
Right now, I like my sound in the car better than the German Maestro headphones. Largely due to the space and realism. It's even better in some ways than my home setup but I plan to change that soon.
I'll reply with more on ambio on the other thread you replied to.


----------



## The Baron Groog

Maybe I should try my stage infront of me? Just need some time to play, lol

At present I'm pretty happy with it, there are odd tracks I get a noticable peak 1-1.5K, Carmina Burana on the Focal Demo disc sounds great for the most part but then gets peaky in parts. This track is the most noticable, and it's excellent quality, so know it's not the CD-other stuff I'd put down to my old MP3s (when hard drive space was a premium and low bit rate) but now realise there's something else at play

Width on my side is somewhat squished, however stage height and pessenger side width is creat, I get a little rainbowing on the odd track, but not so many, again need some time to play with that but don't think I'll be able to get it much wider/less rainbowing without serious fabrication-which won't happen as car has got to go soon (pesky kids, why we need two cars 3 people can fit in I don't know!) and then I'll have a whole new car to start playing with!

Will look out for the ambio info


----------



## Wesayso

FLYONWALL9 said:


> With all the tinkering you like to do, you would LOVE an old ES system. It has the ability to do more things than I have been able to find in any system of its type. Keeping in mind I haven't been able to play with a P9 or F1.
> 
> If I had two of them I would send you one just to mess around with. However, it does not have slopes that low only 72db. but the ability to do all the rest that it does makes up for it. You gotta love it when a system will put chills in you like yours clearly does now. Good job.


It is indeed worth the trouble if in the end you get the results you're after :rolleyes2:
One thing I noticed that my EQ is set to almost flat after all this time....


----------



## Wesayso

The Baron Groog said:


> Width on my side is somewhat squished, however stage height and pessenger side width is creat, I get a little rainbowing on the odd track, but not so many, again need some time to play with that but don't think I'll be able to get it much wider/less rainbowing without serious fabrication-which won't happen as car has got to go soon (pesky kids, why we need two cars 3 people can fit in I don't know!) and then I'll have a whole new car to start playing with!
> 
> Will look out for the ambio info


I bought the Porsche after I found out my girlfriend was pregnant.... as the extra car we would need. I can still fit all three of us in there (lol).
My son is always in the front with me, in a seat adjuster.... no airbags so it's allowed. No seatbelts in the back and our strage laws say he has to sit on a chair adjuster while all there is in the back of a 911 are two child seats! Luckily i have a "petite" girlfriend .

Here's the ambio info:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1582695-post19.html


----------



## subwoofery

Wesayso said:


> I bought the Porsche after I found out my girlfriend was pregnant.... as the extra car we would need. I can still fit all three of us in there (lol).
> *My son is always in the front with me, in a seat adjuster....* no airbags so it's allowed. No seatbelts in the back and our strage laws say he has to sit on a chair adjuster while all there is in the back of a 911 are two child seats! Luckily i have a "petite" girlfriend .
> 
> Here's the ambio info:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1582695-post19.html


Pic or I won't believe you  

Blur the face of your son if you don't want pics of him on the web  

Kelvin


----------



## Wesayso

subwoofery said:


> Pic or I won't believe you
> 
> Blur the face of your son if you don't want pics of him on the web
> 
> Kelvin


From a few years back (spring 2008)... he's almost 6 now:
















He loves this car , he practicly grew up in it...
He always asks me, can we go to 6?! meaning the RPM hitting 6000. When you go to 6000 in second and third gear from about 3000 you get this big push in the back, he loves it!
Only on wide open stretches of road of coarse...


----------



## The Baron Groog

Wesayso said:


> I bought the Porsche after I found out my girlfriend was pregnant.... as the extra car we would need. I can still fit all three of us in there (lol).
> My son is always in the front with me, in a seat adjuster.... no airbags so it's allowed. No seatbelts in the back and our strage laws say he has to sit on a chair adjuster while all there is in the back of a 911 are two child seats! Luckily i have a "petite" girlfriend .
> 
> Here's the ambio info:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1582695-post19.html





Wesayso said:


> He loves this car , he practicly grew up in it...
> He always asks me, can we go to 6?! meaning the RPM hitting 6000. When you go to 6000 in second and third gear from about 3000 you get this big push in the back, he loves it!
> Only on wide open stretches of road of coarse...


lol-my little girl was 1 last week, she loves my car-music/acceleration and noise (supercharger and cat-less SS exhaust)-but my petit missus hates to ride in the back of the car-says she feels like a 2nd class citizen! I've managed to shoe-horn the baby seat into the rear and she can still fit in the front, but I'm sure it's the noise/acceleration she doesn't like-60mph in 2nd gear and she's screaming at me to slow down, while she quite happily does 100mph in her POS!


----------



## subwoofery

The yellow part of the seat adjuster really adds some "Caché" (définition/sparkle) to your Porsche interior  

Kelvin


----------



## Wesayso

subwoofery said:


> The yellow part of the seat adjuster really adds some "Caché" (définition/sparkle) to your Porsche interior
> 
> Kelvin


If I would have known you just wanted to make fun of my seat adjuster I would have never posted the picture (lol). He has a different one now (even more ugly but it fits these chairs, not easy with these seats). This one isn't as visible for the outside world. 

And no! I won't post pictures .


----------



## Wesayso

Today I spend some time working on my refreshed PC to get it running as multimedia center. Got Jriver Media Center (love it) and some plugins to control my 25+ years old Jamo 365D speakers.

After playing with some EQ and Time alignment (those Yamo's are way to big for the room they are in, so placement is odd, almost like in the Car) it sounded decent and it was the first time in this room they were able to produce some imaging.

I asked my 5 year old boy, which do you prefer, the sound in our home or in the car. He replied without thinking too much about it: the car (lol).
I'd have to agree on that though. Not that it sounds bad but the car is huge steps in front of the home setup with imaging and tonality.

His favorite songs: 
Gotye - Somebody that I used to know
Pirates of the Carabean soundtrack - He's a Pirate
Yello - The Race
Emmerson Lake and Palmer - Still, You Turn Me On...

I guess it's about time to start building these:


----------



## bcbsox

Any pictures on how your leather turned out?


----------



## Wesayso

I know I took some after I did the leather but I'm afraid they never made it to my harddrive. The red did stain on white T-shirts and even on denim so I never did my driver seat. It did look quite a bit better but the staining I didn't care for.


----------



## Wesayso

I'm thinking of getting a Genesis Profile Sub amp (350 watt RMS to 4 Ohm) and bridging the 4 channel to the ML 1600 mids. Not to raise volume but to lower gains on the mids. Right now I'm very happy with what I have but due to the gains beeing a bit up on mids (about a quarter up from zero) as well as sub I have some background noise from the amp (barely audible in the mids, none in the tweets, gains all the way down on that amp) when parked with engine off. I'll never hear it with the engine on (lol) but you know... once this audio bug bytes you...

I could lower the gain and up the volume but it won't be the same. I use the loudness curve in my EQ setting so that if I lower the volume I still have bass. So that's why I want to stay around the volume 40-44 from 60 on the HU.

Am I crazy? My guess is the actual amps drawn will be less with a type G sub amp but my wallet will be a bit lighter and I may never notice the difference while driving...

Help me out here


----------



## Wesayso

Custom tweeter pods now available 

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/rsrconcepts

Note: tweeters will stick out of the back of the pod. You'd need some room behind the pod for mounting. The Vifa pod is a very tight fit and may require some sanding. I can modify the model but one could easily make it work with some sand paper.










I don't expect to sell anything but maybe I'm helping other 911 owners with this easy solution... It fits the electric window models.

2 models, one to fit Hertz Space One (or ml28) and the other for Vifa XT25 SC90-04


----------



## nineball

make one to house my dyn md100  my targa will thank you.


----------



## The Baron Groog

Wesayso said:


> I'm thinking of getting a Genesis Profile Sub amp (350 watt RMS to 4 Ohm) and bridging the 4 channel to the ML 1600 mids. Not to raise volume but to lower gains on the mids. Right now I'm very happy with what I have but due to the gains beeing a bit up on mids (about a quarter up from zero) as well as sub I have some background noise from the amp (barely audible in the mids, none in the tweets, gains all the way down on that amp) when parked with engine off. I'll never hear it with the engine on (lol) but you know... once this audio bug bytes you...
> 
> I could lower the gain and up the volume but it won't be the same. I use the loudness curve in my EQ setting so that if I lower the volume I still have bass. So that's why I want to stay around the volume 40-44 from 60 on the HU.
> 
> Am I crazy? My guess is the actual amps drawn will be less with a type G sub amp but my wallet will be a bit lighter and I may never notice the difference while driving...
> 
> Help me out here


lol, amp efficiency is an important consideration-and that background noise is annoying-go for it


----------



## Wesayso

The Baron Groog said:


> lol, amp efficiency is an important consideration-and that background noise is annoying-go for it


I'd first need to figure out where to put it. And I think powering 3 amps with remote turn on lead from the HU is a bit much?

Does it ever end (lol).


----------



## The Baron Groog

AH, another challenge to beat! Plenty of space iin those 911's  Shame you don't have a DVC sub, I have a lovely Genesis 5ch that'd then be ideal!

3 amps will be fine, I've 4 off mine (88RS), if you are really worried about it you can use a relay to switch.


----------



## Wesayso

Your 5 channel (for sale at the time) made me consider these Genesis amps. I started with one, then another and now a third? I may even switch out the 4 channel for a dual mono if I do decide to get the sub amp...


----------



## The Baron Groog

lol, you can never have enough! I've 2x Dm and 2x ST60 in my current install, though want to replace the 2x st60 with another DM, check ebay UK for them-if they won't ship to you let me know and I can bid and ship for you.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Wesayso said:


> I'd first need to figure out where to put it. And I think powering 3 amps with remote turn on lead from the HU is a bit much?
> 
> Does it ever end (lol).


Sounds like to me its time to panel in the front boot, put all your goodies under a thin false floor. As for the remote turn on, you'll be good for up to about 4, IMHO after that I would just run a relay. If you want to play it safe just run a 3 buck relay and call it a day.


----------



## Wesayso

All this talk about a new amplifier jinxed my 4 channel! Today after picking up my son it wouldn't start up. Checked the remote wire: all good. Checked power: all good. Checked the fuses (that I replaced not long ago after experiencing the same problem) and both were ok. Didn't touch anything and later in the afternoon I started up the car and it was back. Went for a drive while my kid had a swimming lesson and when I stopped it was still playing strong. Started the car again, turned on the radio and it was playing intermittant. It rapidly fluctuated between on and off for a few minutes. Then it played fine again. Something must be up with the power supply. Later on today it did the same on off (my kid liked it lol it sounds like a robot he said) and after a while it was normal again. Maybe I should contact Gordon, the amp docter?


----------



## FLYONWALL9

You know I am not the type to speak the freaking obvious or something I'm sure you would have checked. The issue to me almost sounds ground related. Try moving them if you haven't and see if that may fix it. If not perhaps a loose soldier joint on the board or something. I HATE trouble shooting intermittent issues, but I was once pretty good at it with gear from "back in the day".... Was once a fun brain puzzle for me. Oh any chance it went into thermal protect?


----------



## Wesayso

I measured at the ground on the amp. I'm pretty sure its not the cause. It seems like a loose internal contact. I'm sure I could fix it but figure I'm better off sending it to the Amp Docter Gordon, who is/was the man behind these Genesis amps. I'm looking into having it modified to improve noise floor. The Stereo 60 played a lot cleaner so I'm sure this one could too after service.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Wesayso said:


> I measured at the ground on the amp. I'm pretty sure its not the cause. It seems like a loose internal contact. I'm sure I could fix it but figure I'm better off sending it to the Amp Docter Gordon, who is/was the man behind these Genesis amps. I'm looking into having it modified to improve noise floor. The Stereo 60 played a lot cleaner so I'm sure this one could too after service.


Copy that. I wish someone still worked on my amps, this is the only thing that I am worried about when I do have them playing.

Good luck and have a great weekend
Scott


----------



## The Baron Groog

Sounds daft, re-check your AGU fuse for the amp. 

We have a lot of issues with fuses causing these issues. Looking at the fuse casually it will look unblown, but if you can get the angle right to see into the cap you'll often find the solder has melted and is no longer making a good enough contact to function correctly.

I've found that the contact is often good enough to carry enough current for the amp to power up or for a test light to work, but ask any more from it and you'll get nothing/intermitent issues.

Hope thats it


----------



## Wesayso

The Baron Groog said:


> Sounds daft, re-check your AGU fuse for the amp.
> 
> We have a lot of issues with fuses causing these issues. Looking at the fuse casually it will look unblown, but if you can get the angle right to see into the cap you'll often find the solder has melted and is no longer making a good enough contact to function correctly.
> 
> I've found that the contact is often good enough to carry enough current for the amp to power up or for a test light to work, but ask any more from it and you'll get nothing/intermitent issues.
> 
> Hope thats it


I think I'm out of luck on this one... I swapped in my former amplifier, a JBL GTO 504 and it plays just fine. It even seems more powerfull and dynamic than the Genesis was lately? I think there's something wrong with the power supply in the Genesis. If it didn't turn on there wasn't any light either.
I think I'm going to send it in to Gordon and maybe even have it upgraded/modified if it doesn't cost too much. The gains on the JBL were lower than I needed them to be on the Genesis for the same output. In theory they should be all the was down with the more powerfull Genesis 4 channel. Something's not right. It has produced some real magic for me so it deserves a second chance . Maybe I do not need a third amp after all...


----------



## The Baron Groog

Gordon is on here, send him a PM to see what he thinks may be the issue. I've had him service my 5ch, very reasonable and it came back re-polished with a new box and instructions Watch for his sense of humour-he said my 5ch had no internals to it-even though I'd powered it up and tested channels I still touched cloth!


----------



## Wesayso

I'm going to send the amp to Gordon today, to service and modify.
It's getting new preamp chips to improve SQ/noise level and he's going set output bias.
Looks like I'm going to have to use it on the mids and tweeters to take full use of the modifications. I'll try the Stereo 60 bridged to the sub. If that does not work out I'll use a class D for sub duty, probably the mentioned Genesis Profile sub amp.


----------



## The Baron Groog

Sounds like a plan

170wrms should be fine for your sub


----------



## Wesayso

I got word today my amp is on it's way back! Can't wait to get in the car again. I still have a hard time figuring out the differences in amplifiers but had some modifications done that make a measurable difference.

To quote Gordon:


> It's making ~ 93 watts a channel with very low distortion and the signal to noise is also improved over a standard amplifier with the higher grade preamp chips.
> 
> The power supply had 3 components replaced which can cause intermittent operation issues to make sure the problem was eliminated.
> 
> We replaced the driver boards, main caps, feedback caps, preamp rail caps and power supply components as these were all showing signs of old age, then fitted the upgrades.


After reading a lot about crossover distortion in class AB amplifiers I am glad I got this chance to get my amplifier serviced, modified and making sure the bias was set correctly.
Check out this part of the site from Gordon:
http://www.amp-doctor.co.uk/servicing/upgrades/
I am pretty sure things like this can make an audible difference in amplifiers. As it can be measured .


----------



## Wesayso

My old and tired 4 channel made it to the facebook page from Gordon: TheAmpDoctorLtd









And slowly turns into a better than brand new amp... very cool!








_You can see my case modification on the left to fit the seat rail of the 911_

I'm responsible for those no name fuses :blush: after the amp was cutting in and out I replaced them at work with what I could get at the time. 
The rest of the amp was in this shape when I got it second hand. The ground terminal looked like someone did some welding with the ground wire. I was worried when I got it but it played awesome for over a year. I got it at a bargain price and determined it was definitely worth saving. 
My ST60 looked brand new when I got it so now I have a 4 channel to match it :laugh:.


----------



## Spyke

Front trunk, I forgot about that. You shouldn't have any localization problems. Nice car.


----------



## Wesayso

Spyke said:


> Front trunk, I forgot about that. You shouldn't have any localization problems. Nice car.


Thanks for the compliment.
I didn't get any localization anymore after I got rid of some rattles . I actually still have some vibrating in the dash behind my instrument cluster at higher mid bass output. Difficult to find what and where it is exactly.

No comments on the Amp Docter? I am amazed at what he does, especially for the cost. I highly recommend him!

Website: http://www.amp-doctor.co.uk/

Facebook (featuring my 4 channel): Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More


----------



## The Baron Groog

I have used Gordon in the past, and have an amp waiting to go to him-great service and quality of work-I'd HIGHLY recommend too!


----------



## Wesayso

Got my 4 channel back in a while ago and still tuning to get where I was before it broke down. As usual I forgot to write down the settings before swapping in the old JBL amp and been fiddling with the dails in between. I'm close but think I can do better.
Here's how I got it back 








And the numbers:









Meanwhile I have a new noise problem. No noise when the car is off. High frequency noise when I turn ignition on. Never had that before... Everything was disconnected at the battery with the amp swaps... It goes away in about 3 minutes, I can't figure out what would do that. It seems like it's related to the High voltage ignition system as I seem to hear the high frequency tone from that system mixed in.
As said, it dissapears after just a few minutes. Crazy stuff to troubleshoot. 
Working on the car right now doing some rust prevention (I drive it all year round).

My latest favorite song:




Stephen Stills - Tree Top Flyer
_(picked the best sounding youtube clip to show here)_
Great simple song...


----------



## questamunic

Wesayso said:


> Thanks for the compliments!
> 
> The first piece of music I installed was this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is mono but I still love it!
> 
> Not the best choise for an SQ car though... it can get quite loud!


Love thoose exhaust manifolds. Metal art!!


----------



## Wesayso

Haven't updated in a while but I was still busy with this setup. Is it ever really finished?
For a while I was almost convinced I needed to go 3 way. If I had my high's under control I'd find something off in the midrange. If I fix the midrange my Bass does not sound like before etc...
But I am convinced these speakers CAN produce wonderfull sound (I have been close to heaven lots of time only to push too many buttons and mess it up again ).

Something just wasn't right every time I tried to tune. So I went back to listening to seperate components, like only tweeters playing, only woofers or Sub only.
That made me rethink the crossovers and something about the tweeters wasn't right if I needed them crossed over lower.
After looking for Home speaker setups utillising this exact tweeter I found something interesting. Over on the PE Tech forums these tweeters are often mentioned and praised. Most of the designs are able to cross them between 2.5 and 3 kHz. But they are using passive networks, not active.
One member there, Wolf mentioned the use of a parallel resistor to tame the FS peak. Was that what I was hearing?
After emailing him back and forth (he is a very helpfull guy) he and I agreed that it just might work. He kept warning me to not cross them over too low though. 
I got a 33 ohm resistor, an extra capacitor for the change in induction of the tweeter with paralell resistor and fabricated a new passive network for both tweeters.
The 33 ohm resistor connects parallel to the tweeter and my original 22 uf capacitor gets some help from a second 10 uf Jantzen parallel to the 22 uf to make it's total value about 32 uf. (red positive wire)








After this I was indeed pleased with the sound of the tweeter playing with a 12 dB/oct crossover at 3.15 kHz sounded nice all by themself. Better at 3.15 kHz than 2.5 kHz though, although that might be my mind playing tricks on me .

Next I needed to find the sweetspot for the woofer crossover. After looking at some old posts by member Doiter on here measuring the crossovers from a Pioneer unit I came to the conclusion I might get away with a bit of underlap.
I remembered Pioneer did this with their passive set. Pioneer chose woofer crossed at 2 kHz/12 dB and tweeter at 4 kHz/12 dB.
I ended up crossing the woofer at 1.6 kHz and the tweeter at 3.15 kHz, both on 12 dB slopes.
I got my Radioshack SPL meter and set the time alignment using a 2375 Hz sine wave made with a very old Cool Edit program I still had.
Switching the polarity on the tweeters, playing left tweeter and woofer with the sine wave, adjusting TA till the meter wouldn't drop any further. Same for the other side and after that just switch back polarity: done...
It sounded ok but not good. After some time I figured out the passenger side was one 2375 kHz wavelength in front of the driver side! Oops!
Fixed that before I drove home from work and: bingo! Great stage, wide and clear! Just a bit of up and down with the right side tweeter to align it to the other side to get rid of some SSShh sound, done. Easy to do when playing a track that hass some sharp SSSS sounds and only playing the tweeters.
After a day or two I get used to the sound again and mess with it again.
But when I reverted back to these settings I knew I was on to something.
Today I played with 6 dB slopes on the tweeter at 4 kHz. Adjusted the TA and BOOM! Back in business! I just know this can work.
Russian circles never sounded this good in the car after i changed sub crossovers to 12 dB slopes, sub at 63 Hz/12 dB and woofers at 80 Hz/12 dB.
Time aligned with a 71.5 Hz sine wave and again: more space and open sound! Drums no longer have only a left to right motion but also front and back.
In other words, the tweeters playing lower gave me width, the sub at 12 dB slopes gave me more depth.
I used to cross the sub at 80 and even 125 Hz. It seems that clouded/muddied the midbass enough to mess with it.

Wow, long write-up, sorry for that (lol).


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Long but worth the read, to me anyway. Explains a good bit of what was going on


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## Wesayso

Thanks Fly,

I'm just trying to work with what I have. I realise the Pioneer HU is great but it can't solve every problem you encounter in Car audio sound. But it is fun to search for different ways around that. I've had chills down my spine more than once listening to music in my car. So I know it can work. It's just harder to make it work for all types of music. Slowly getting there with lots of other ideas to try.
I almost wanted to try different mid's though. I'm still wondering how good Dynaudio Esotar2 650 woofers would sound. I guess I'll just wait for the results of the big midbass test.


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## Wesayso

questamunic said:


> Love thoose exhaust manifolds. Metal art!!


Pretty isn't it? Sounds good too. I'll have to make a sound clip of them one day driving trough a tunnel or something .


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## Spyke

Wesayso said:


> Thanks Fly,
> 
> I'm just trying to work with what I have. I realise the Pioneer HU is great but it can't solve every problem you encounter in Car audio sound. But it is fun to search for different ways around that. *I've had chills down my spine more than once listening to music in my car. So I know it can work.* It's just harder to make it work for all types of music. Slowly getting there with lots of other ideas to try.
> I almost wanted to try different mid's though. I'm still wondering how good Dynaudio Esotar2 650 woofers would sound. I guess I'll just wait for the results of the big midbass test.


I know the feeling. I've been playing with my e36 for a while and just recently the pieces are starting to fall into place. It's an exciting feeling when that happens. My problem was that for a long time I was trying to cross to high and with to steep a slope. I was [email protected] for mid and high. Over time, I dropped to [email protected] for the mid and [email protected] for the tweeter and am liking the sound. As for the sub I need to cross a little higher due to only having 5" mids but I love how a shallow slope on a sub sounds. Russian circles must be a good test disc. Or maybe your the one who I found out about them from. Track 4 on station can almost put me into a coma any day.  Where in the Netherlands are you from?


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## Wesayso

I'm from Assen, home of the TT where the Moto GP races do their thing once a year. The rest of the year it's pretty quiet over here .

Just tried some E-40, Tell me when to go...





Wow, looks like I still have some rattles left in the dash... Behind the meters... you don't want to know how much open cell foam is in there allready :laugh:.
All in all this is the best sound in the the car yet. Still some work to do but the speakers dissapear (was never a problem) nice wide stage, excellent imaging and good low extention. Width finally extends beond the left door. That was always the hardest part. Maybe some work on tonality left but not bad so far!


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## Spyke

Wesayso said:


> I'm from Assen, home of the TT where the Moto GP races do their thing once a year. The rest of the year it's pretty quiet over here .
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, looks like I still have some rattles left in the dash... Behind the meters... you don't want to know how much open cell foam is in there allready :laugh:.
> All in all this is the best sound in the the car yet. Still some work to do but the speakers dissapear (was never a problem) nice wide stage, excellent imaging and good low extention. Width finally extends beond the left door. That was always the hardest part. Maybe some work on tonality left but not bad so far!


I've always been a fan of the "european style" racing. Baltimore, MD just began hosting an Indy car race which is odd considering the type of people around here. Mostly NASCAR fans.

Glad everything is coming together for your build.


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## Wesayso

I'm thinking about my next step. I noticed things stay even and good sounding when I am sitting in my chair all the way back. If I lean a bit forward I get bitten in the ass by the SSS sounds that has been bugging me for a quite a while. If I think about that some more I noticed critical listening while sitting in a parked car has always been easyer than when on the road driving the car. If I look at the path from the tweeters to my ear the left side always is off axis, even if I lean forward. The right side however is almost on axis and gets damn close to on axis if I move forward. I noticed that too when looking for the dip in response between tweeter and mid when moving the mic a bit to the front.
The left level stays pretty much the same whereas the right level is very sensitive to forward movements. 
Maybe I should make a different angled pod for the right side mimicking the off axis level of the left one. Making sure it stays off axis when leaning forward as does the left pod.
Time to get the laser pointer out for this problem!
I'm only hoping that won't get me into trouble with the left side glass reflections. The way they were aimed right now it seemed to make almost no difference with windows up or down.
Can't hurt to try (except im my wallet ).


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## Wesayso

Spyke said:


> I know the feeling. I've been playing with my e36 for a while and just recently the pieces are starting to fall into place. It's an exciting feeling when that happens. My problem was that for a long time I was trying to cross to high and with to steep a slope. I was [email protected] for mid and high. Over time, I dropped to [email protected] for the mid and [email protected] for the tweeter and am liking the sound. As for the sub I need to cross a little higher due to only having 5" mids but I love how a shallow slope on a sub sounds. Russian circles must be a good test disc. Or maybe your the one who I found out about them from. Track 4 on station can almost put me into a coma any day.  Where in the Netherlands are you from?


Just for giggles, try the tweeters at 3.5 K or 4K with a 6 dB slope.
Make sure to line up phase again and re-eq if needed.


----------



## Spyke

Wesayso said:


> I'm thinking about my next step. I noticed things stay even and good sounding when I am sitting in my chair all the way back. If I lean a bit forward I get bitten in the ass by the SSS sounds that has been bugging me for a quite a while. If I think about that some more I noticed critical listening while sitting in a parked car has always been easyer than when on the road driving the car. If I look at the path from the tweeters to my ear the left side always is off axis, even if I lean forward. The right side however is almost on axis and gets damn close to on axis if I move forward. I noticed that too when looking for the dip in response between tweeter and mid when moving the mic a bit to the front.
> The left level stays pretty much the same whereas the right level is very sensitive to forward movements.
> Maybe I should make a different angled pod for the right side mimicking the off axis level of the left one. Making sure it stays off axis when leaning forward as does the left pod.
> Time to get the laser pointer out for this problem!
> I'm only hoping that won't get me into trouble with the left side glass reflections. The way they were aimed right now it seemed to make almost no difference with windows up or down.
> Can't hurt to try (except im my wallet ).


Is this a left or right drive car? I've noticed that the farther away the tweeters are the less they are affected by head movement. I noticed this the most when I had them mounted in the door. The slightest movement would change the sound dramatically. So I had a choice between not moving my head even slightly, or moving the tweeters. So now they are in the kicks off axis. It adds depth as well.


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## Spyke

Wesayso said:


> Just for giggles, try the tweeters at 3.5 K or 4K with a 6 dB slope.
> Make sure to line up phase again and re-eq if needed.


Better yet, I was just playing and they are now [email protected] I found that this allows me to turn them back up and re-gain the "air" I was missing.


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## jpeezy

For music that is squeaky clean and dynamic but has rock edge, gamalon aerial view, and anything by dream theater,beautiful car and setup !


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## Wesayso

jpeezy said:


> For music that is squeaky clean and dynamic but has rock edge, gamalon aerial view, and anything by dream theater,beautiful car and setup !


Thanks, I'll look into that! And thanks for the compliment!


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## Wesayso

Spyke said:


> Is this a left or right drive car? I've noticed that the farther away the tweeters are the less they are affected by head movement. I noticed this the most when I had them mounted in the door. The slightest movement would change the sound dramatically. So I had a choice between not moving my head even slightly, or moving the tweeters. So now they are in the kicks off axis. It adds depth as well.


It is a left hand drive, the tweeter that is further away is the culprit for me.
I don't want to move my tweeters, there's a hole behind them . But I can play with aiming them.

I've had them up that high before (6.3 K) with shallow slopes but my midrange suffered. Making the singers seem further away on all songs and not in front of the bass and drum.


----------



## Spyke

Wesayso said:


> It is a left hand drive, the tweeter that is further away is the culprit for me.
> *I don't want to move my tweeters, there's a hole behind them* . But I can play with aiming them.


I know the feeling of wrecking an interior That's why I have spare kick panels. Not that I want to move my tweets. But if/when I do I don't want to have to look at holes while I find new panels.

Aim might do the trick. I've never been a fan of on axis tweeters, especially hard domes. It almost seems like it becomes too detailed and therefore very locateable. 



Wesayso said:


> I've had them up that high before (6.3 K) with shallow slopes but my midrange suffered. Making the singers seem further away on all songs and not in front of the bass and drum.


Funny, I just came to the same conclusion during a listening session. They are at 5k now, and may go to 4k.


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## Spyke

Just curious. You make t/a seem like it's an easy thing to do. Every time I try t/a it ends up as a complete disaster. What method do you use? Thanks.


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## Wesayso

Well, I tried every method I could find on here .

At first I tried the auto TA/EQ on the pioneer but it was obvious to me that wouldn't do very well. Auto TA/EQ is nice to learn something but in the end you got to work it out yourself.

Next up I just typed in the distances to my speakers and moved on from there. It actually wasn't that bad but the center would end up in front of me. Giving me a wide open space on the passenger side and a crushed left stage.

That's when I started reading every thread I could find on the subject. That got me a bit further and I could move the center to where I wanted it by adjusting the passenger side speakers left and right. My left driver side would stay where it was and I only adjusted the right side as a whole. 
Remember to also make sure the gain left and right on all speakers is set to this new choosen center. I like to have my center a bit towards me, not exactly in the center of the car but a bit to the left. (like looking at the center of the hood where a Mercedes would have it's star, about that same line depending on how far the singer seems to be. It is actually a bit between that point and the real center line of the car)

Once I got that far I stumbled over the Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/96196-precision-time-alignment-using-only-noise-tracks-your-ears.html
That has been my guide for a long time. The only part I was not able to get was the sub integration. But in my case with the sub upfront I allready had an advantage with the drums comming from the front. 
So the sub part I did by playing music and adjusting TA by ear till it sounded good.
The time alignment using noise worked pretty good so I could try all kinds of crossover slopes and points. It works best with overlapping crossover points though as it is much easyer to hear.
Next up came Bikinpunk with his measurement microphone and sine waves to do sub integration. It had at that point allready crossed my mind that those that built passive crossovers for home speakers always check phase integration by reversing polarity on one speaker to show phase responce is optimal. If you reverse one speaker's polarity on a well designed passive crossover the drop at the crossover frequency is huge. 
Bikinpunk showed this method on his website and mentions it in the above thread. Here it is: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1675034-post217.html
_(as you can see on the page where this was posted I immediatly started asking questions as it seemed like an even better tool to get things right)_

This is now my favorite way to TA. I still keep certain things in mind, like the real distance to the speakers. My tweeters are closer than my woofer. So I start from there. Not exacly from there but close. In other words, make the tweeter line up with the woofer but don't be afraid to move it forward or back a bit in experimenting.

_Note: My Pioneer HU deals with Time Alignment in centimeters (cm) or Inches. I read a lot of people having some difficulty to adjust to that but why not use it as intended._

My left woofer is ~ 95 cm from my ear, depending from where you measure, voice coil is my point of preference. I have it at 97.5 cm in my Pioneer HU setup. The right side I determined by experimentin a lot with the TA setting and left/right gain/levels. Physically it is ~ 125 cm from my right ear.
I tried several distances from 132 cm to 158 cm typed into the HU to see what it would bring me. At a TA setting of 158 cm and more the stage started to break up in the center. Voices would no longer be clear. Around 125 cm to about 132 cm the center would still be in my face (right in front of me).
If you set corresponding left/right levels. With levels alone you can swing pretty easy to the left and right but the trick is to line up both levels and TA for a rock solid center (or left of center like I have).
So basicly my driver side woofer is (almost) always at the same setting.
The woofer is at 147.5 cm set in the HU. So that's making sure it pulls the stage to the right. a bigger number in cm is less delay. 400 cm (max setting) is zero delay.
The tweeters are about 10-15 cm closer to the ears so that's where I have them to start. Start at 10 cm in front of woofer, so 87.5 cm for left and 137.5 for right tweeter and start the noise track method or Bikinpunk's method after that. With the shallow slopes I have now (differing in phase responce) my left tweeter ended up at 70 cm(!) and the right one at 121.25 I believe? That is with both tweeter and woofer in normal polarity.
The sub actually ended up at a surpricing 400 cm in reverse polarity! Either that or at 160 cm in normal polarity. But that would be closer than it really is so I figured the other option would give me the best result.

In this post I typed a bit on how I used my SPL meter and some custom made sine waves at specific frequencies (made with Cool Edit Pro) to get where I am now.


Wesayso said:


> Next I needed to find the sweetspot for the woofer crossover. After looking at some old posts by member Doiter on here measuring the crossovers from a Pioneer unit I came to the conclusion I might get away with a bit of underlap.
> I remembered Pioneer did this with their passive set. Pioneer chose woofer crossed at 2 kHz/12 dB and tweeter at 4 kHz/12 dB.
> I ended up crossing the woofer at 1.6 kHz and the tweeter at 3.15 kHz, both on 12 dB slopes.
> I got my Radioshack SPL meter and set the time alignment using a 2375 Hz sine wave made with a very old Cool Edit program I still had.
> Switching the polarity on the tweeters, playing left tweeter and woofer with the sine wave, adjusting TA till the meter wouldn't drop any further. Same for the other side and after that just switch back polarity: done...
> It sounded ok but not good. After some time I figured out the passenger side was one 2375 kHz wavelength in front of the driver side! Oops!
> Fixed that before I drove home from work and: bingo! Great stage, wide and clear! Just a bit of up and down with the right side tweeter to align it to the other side to get rid of some SSShh sound, done. Easy to do when playing a track that hass some sharp SSSS sounds and only playing the tweeters.
> After a day or two I get used to the sound again and mess with it again.
> But when I reverted back to these settings I knew I was on to something.
> Today I played with 6 dB slopes on the tweeter at 4 kHz. Adjusted the TA and BOOM! Back in business! I just know this can work.
> Russian circles never sounded this good in the car after i changed sub crossovers to 12 dB slopes, sub at 63 Hz/12 dB and woofers at 80 Hz/12 dB.
> Time aligned with a 71.5 Hz sine wave and again: more space and open sound! Drums no longer have only a left to right motion but also front and back.
> In other words, the tweeters playing lower gave me width, the sub at 12 dB slopes gave me more depth.
> I used to cross the sub at 80 and even 125 Hz. It seems that clouded/muddied the midbass enough to mess with it.
> 
> Wow, long write-up, sorry for that (lol).


Hope this helps you. Please note that I don't claim this to be THE way to do it, it's just my way for now . I play with the tweeter alignment as mentioned above to balance left and right the best I can. A few clicks up or down can yield an entirely different sound at these short frequencies. It's easy to adjust the woofer to that by repeating the number of up/down clicks to balance it out.

Way to much words, but I hope you gain something from it. If it's not clear, say it and I'll try to answer. Remember, I am Dutch, so this is not my main language .

_One more thing I though of: with no time alignment and one woofer's polarity reversed, the center stage position is right in front of me. But that works on both seats! If I didn't have TA I would use that to enjoy the imaging._


----------



## Wesayso

Not to clutter up the above even further I have one more point to add: There is of coarse a different way to do it with proper equipment. Measure the actual arrival times with an audio program on a laptop or PC and a microphone. I haven't tried it but I remember one of the posts on that subject by npdang (founder of this website) and several other posts by Andy Wehmeiyer and Bikinpunk on how one could use that.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/17-tuning-your-car-using-pc-based-measurement-setup.html

My guess is that the above method would result in a stage with the singer in front of you if you get the exact arrival of sound of the left and right speakers the same. Same goes for the Auto TA/EQ of Pioneer.

Another usefull thread is this one:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rs/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html

After getting TA right it is usefull to play with the left/right EQ to get every frequency band you have control over in the "center".

I haven't done that after my last changes as I am still playing with tonality. That is the last step for me but I usually don't have a lot of stray frequencies that pull strong to one side. Don't go crazy with it, the trick is to get both sides to sound the same. Sometimes that means setting crossover points and/or slopes different on left versus right.
I try to do the best I can with crossovers and slopes to minimalise EQ afterwards. In all honesty I still have auto EQ from Pioneer active as a base line. It does a good job lifting up the bass where needed.


----------



## Spyke

Wow. Thanks for the brain dump. Well I took a step in the right direction and moved my tweeters back to the door panels which helped a lot. 

You're right about the precision time alignment. I tried that a while back and could not for the life of me get the sub and mids aligned. I don't really agonize over sub/mid alignment anyway. I flip polarity to whichever sounds better and call it a day.

So, basically after I moved my tweeters up to where I could actually hear them I went ahead and plugged the distances into my hu.  Instant improvement, the stage was wide and deep. I also adjusted the levels of each speaker individually so there was no pulling to either side. 

After you plugged the distances into your hu did you fine tune them by using pink/white noise or just music? Are you still leaving gaps and using 6db filters? 

I am by no means done of course but I am closer than ever before. And yeah, I would love to have the proper equipment to do this right and without having to second guess myself all the time. I am constantly wondering ("is this right? or is it one of the other millions of combinations of filters, eq, and t/a?"):anxious:

Thanks again for your time and info. Btw, for english being your second language you speak, or at least write, better than half of the U.S.. And i'm not kidding.:blush:


----------



## Wesayso

I still use 6 dB slopes on the tweeters and 12 dB on the woofers. Woofers at 1.6 kHz and tweeters at 4 kHz.
If I had used 24 dB slopes on both the measured distance would have been close to right. But due to the phase shift at the crossover point from the chosen slopes I moved my tweeters towards me by ~ 14 cm after measuring. When I had all 12 dB slopes it came out to be 17 cm more towards me or second option: invert polarity on tweeter and it would have been close to the measured distance again.
I used the Radioshack SPL meter (analog type) and sine wave as in the quoted part above. The distances only get you close with the right slopes. 
The playing noise track method would have worked but with less overlap it's harder to hear.

If you use 12 dB on the mids and 6 db on the tweeters (2 way front right?) try to invert polarity on both the tweeters and move them (with TA, not physically) 3 cm (or a hair over 1 inch) closer and listen. To know for sure you'd have to measure with a microphone or test it with the noise tracks. But it will get you closer I guess and play the tweeters only on a sibilant track. now move one tweeter's TA up and down till it sounds right. Play everything together again and listen. Maybe adjust the TA on the woofer the same amount as the tweeter moved and listen again. Some points sound better than others. The oposite waves could cancel each other messing things up. With all the reflections in a car there's no telling what will work.

It is easy for your ears to get used to a sound. But that doesn't make it the right sound!
I mess up with EQ cuts all the time and revert back to flat every now and then to check if I am at all improving from there. There have been lot's of times I was completely happy on my drive home from work only to find out the next day how horrible the sound was! 
If I do not change settings for a whole week I am getting closer. It has happened in the past but I broke an amp and did not write down the settings.
So now I am trying to capture that sound again. With a bit different settings but there are many ways to good sound. The difference between good sound and great sound can be very small sometimes.
I now have written down all my settings, all EQ slopes, crossover points etc. of something I liked for more than a few days. I always think I will remember it all but it is so easy to mess up!

Try it and have fun! I'm off to do maintance on my car today. I hate adjusting the valves . Even though I use an easy method by adjusting it at the camshaft. And I have to tap off the oil when it is hot .


If you need a few good songs to test the setup:
Dreamer - Supertramp (will let you hear all sides of the stage)
Golden Years - David Bowie (as above but with a deeper voice to test)
The Race - Yello (great track doing all fun stuff if you get it right)




I have a female singer, a dutch girl named Anouk to check female vocals. Also Kimbra and the powerfull midrange of Shirley Bassey. If she sounds good without blowing your ears out you're getting close .
I actually use a Yello track with Shirley Bassey as they have great atmosphere. (but Goldfinger will do as well)





Anouk:





Kimbra:





For instrumental you allready have Russian Circles, but The Pirates of the Carabean soundtrack featuring Rodrigo y Gabriella is cool as hell if you get the midrange right:






These songs and quite a few others I use to get a base line. My favorite music isn't always best to test imaging etc. I like Led Zeppelin, Van Halen, Whitesnake and more (classic) Rock.

One more note from me, I seem to do that a lot: I have BBE engaged on my P88 RSII. On it's lowest setting -4. It really brings drums alive. I should not need/do it but I do it anyway . I also have Loudness on. Remember, I only have one 8" sub up front closed off from the cabin.
Drums sound great that way, my midrange is about 88 dB, the sub stage is about 94 dB while playing songs. I convert all my songs to AAC at 384 bitrate (also bad) to put them on my CD IB 100 and would use flac otherwise but can't. I can't stand CD's anymore because I always want to hear another song than i have on them . If I find a way to play Flac I will.
I convert everything from flac or wav myself with care and use replay gain to set them at 92 dB average. That way one song does not play louder than the next.


----------



## Wesayso

jpeezy said:


> For music that is squeaky clean and dynamic but has rock edge, gamalon aerial view, and anything by dream theater,beautiful car and setup !


Never heard from Gamalon before, nice music! Dream Theatre I was aware of.

I like it a bit more rock like this:


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## Spyke

Wesayso said:


> It is easy for your ears to get used to a sound. But that doesn't make it the right sound!


Indeed. I don't know how many times i've ended the night thinking that I finally got it and then woke the next morning to the worst sounding system ever. I have in the past(and may try this again) used a very good and trusted set of headphones to get the tonality right. Not hooked up to the car of course. Well, I have a lot of new things to try and I thank you for that.


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## Wesayso

Keep us posted on your progress! 
I bought closed cap headphones just for this: the German Maestro GMP8.35 D.
It is used by EMMA and several other organisations as a reference for tonality.
I like them, some would say they are a bit dark sounding but that's what I like anyway.


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## Wesayso

Just watched the 2007 Led Zeppelin O2 arena show in the cinema... Hope they make the 20 million viewers worldwide, the place was packed!


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## Spyke

Wesayso said:


> Just watched the 2007 Led Zeppelin O2 arena show in the cinema... Hope they make the 20 million viewers worldwide, the place was packed!


Cool. How were those kick drums in the beginning? One thing I love about live concerts is the insane bass levels. And then not so much realizing afterwards that my car sounds like a pair of 2" wide banders.


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## Wesayso

The kick drum didn't hit in the chest (at the beginning of the movie). That was the first thing I said to my friend, it's not loud enough, I can't feel it .

It became louder at the halfway point though but it hits much harder in my car  !
One of the advantages of having a small car with sub upfront I guess?


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## FLYONWALL9

.We have a IMAX theater about 3 hours from where I am that is ULTRA loud. I have to carry a pair of my shooters ear plugs just in case the audio guy went nuts that day. When I went to see Avatar it was damn near miserable, until I made some ear plugs out of rolled up paper towel. THAT would be the theater to see this type show at.

Its now 3am here, I'm not the least bit sleepy, nothing is on TV, I've seen all my movies a couple dozen times. I'm thinking of going out cranking up a sander in my shop and pissing off the my old ass neighbors. :laugh: Until the police come to tell me its time to turn it off. If I take something to help me sleep I wont get up until 11 or 12, its nights like these where I wish my health were 100%, I would be done with my car by now.

While I am thinking about it and have botched up this topic so much I may as well ask you something.

You know I was thinking of putting in the knee pad from the matching car that my pockets came out of. Why not just make a fiberglass cover that would fit over the one I have in the car now. Then wrap it as if it were the one from a 993? This would save the look of having two glove boxes, that is unless I just cant cram my CDX-91 changer in my current glove box. Those old Sony 10 disc changers are kinda massive.

whatchu think?


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## Wesayso

Excellent idea! That 993 piece isn't going to fit as we found out so this is the next best option and if anyone can do it it's you (on one of your crazy nights). I can relate to your feelings with my health troubles. It's always somewhere late at night that I feel I can handle anything. Only to wake up broken the next day .


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## FLYONWALL9

Wesayso said:


> Excellent idea! That 993 piece isn't going to fit as we found out so this is the next best option and if anyone can do it it's you (on one of your crazy nights). I can relate to your feelings with my health troubles. It's always somewhere late at night that I feel I can handle anything. Only to wake up broken the next day .


I've heard you can fit the knee pad you just have to do some metal cutting and such. I was thinking with the mod to mine I would make an end plate then some spars that would run across the lower part of the dash. Use some sort of wooden battens between each spar to space them and keep them tight to the current knee pad. Then pull fabric over the whole lot and wipe with resin. Wait until it hardens pull it from the car and add more glass, but keep it thin so that in the event of a crash i wouldn't break my knees. It could almost all be made of two part foam then stretch grill cloth over and resin, bondo and vinyl.??

Sorry for thinking aloud


----------



## Wesayso

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Sorry for thinking aloud


No problem .... anything to keep you moving forward with your build!
Can't wait to see your chairs covered. And the rest of coarse. Hope this "help" you are getting will work out for you. If I were a bit closer you'd be finished, I'm sure lol.


----------



## derickveliz

Wesayso said:


> It became louder at the halfway point though but it hits much harder in my car :O!
> One of the advantages of having a small car with sub upfront I guess?


*I know and feel what you mean!*

.


----------



## Wesayso

derickveliz said:


> *I know and feel what you mean!*
> 
> .


Tried to listen to any E-40 in your car yet? Just as a simple test for rattles (lol).
Not my kind of music but I did enjoy it!


----------



## Spyke

Do you still have that single jbl sub? If it does that good in sealed I may need to try one...or two. How much power are you giving it?


----------



## Wesayso

Yep, single 8" JBL crossed at 63 Hz/12 dB sealed in 10 liter enclosure. I wouldn't try it in the back of your car with a single one though.... get it upfront! It's small! 
I have 2 channels on the Genesis four channel bridged, that should be like 290 watt RMS?

Don't forget the crazy room gain I get in my small car. It plays flat to 20 Hz and I actually turn it down a bit at 20 Hz because it messes with my driving when the floor starts vibrating! (lol)
P.S., Yes I have sound deadening tiles on the floor (about 25% coverage)


----------



## Spyke

I'm struggling with bmw soundproofing in mine. I guess they never counted on someone wanting to put subs back there. I removed the rear deck speakers and enclosures which helped a lot. Just tried some e-40, wow! You're right not my style either but damn that's good bass.


----------



## Wesayso

Glad you liked it! It's a great test isn't it? Also like the focals comming from the left and right somewhere halfway the track and the focals are very clean!
Just hoping I can get the accociated rattles out of my dash!

One more plug for this:








Urban Outlaw | Reelhouse

Great short film about Magnus Walker. Love the atmosphere, scenery, images and the story, and of coarse the cars...


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Wesayso said:


> No problem .... anything to keep you moving forward with your build!
> Can't wait to see your chairs covered. And the rest of coarse. Hope this "help" you are getting will work out for you. If I were a bit closer you'd be finished, I'm sure lol.


Well, it helps to have someone with a 911 that is active on the board that I can bounce an idea off of. Man if I had someone that enjoyed these cars as much as we do we both would have some kick ass cars, engines and interiors. I've got to get these doors done so I can move onto the larger panels in the rear so they can get covered. The rear is going to be tricky to make the massive amount of gear take up very little room and look good. HOPE

Magnus is one cool cat! Love his car, work he does, and ethic and seems very approachable. The man is very creative and one thing I like most is he seems for the most part to be self taught.


----------



## Wesayso

After my last tuning efforts my sound has improved a lot. It is now better than ever before. I still have some ideas to improve what's there though. Mostly vibration controll.
I'd like to try an get aluminum baffles cut, same shape as the MDF ones I currently have. But between the HDPE rings and the baffle I would add a spacer ring so I can mount the speakers rigid on the inner door and have the doorpanel disconnected from the woofer.
It would sit between the baffle and the HDPE ring with some form of damping.

Also, up front the subwoofer enclosure sits on some open cell foam right now. I want to change that out to rubber and make a new mounting rig that's disconnected from the actual box so I get less vibration in the frame. I have it somewhat like that now with some rubber and one screw with a rubber ring and it is the best it has sounded without much vibration left.

The more I can controll little things like that, the more pure sound will dominate. In other words work a bit more work on install. It really does wonders and pays off in the end.

Still wondering if some kind of backwave absorber really works. I have some egg foam in one door and in my driver side door it got way too damp and I had to take that out.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Much of what you have talked about here are things we either have talked about
via pm or email. Most of which I am going to use in my install based on your exp.
Sure does save me lots of time and labor having had those go before me with the
same car. 

Like with the pods for my 8's and mounting them to the doors as you state above,
I already have some rubber sheet to install under and around my sub enclosure, I
think the one thing it will help is knocking down some engine noise and or road noise
depending on where its mounted. The stuff I have, I have no clue what it was used
for. Again, it was some of the goodies my Pops gave me for one reason or another.
He is like my personal hardware store.  If I do mount the subs in the back I think
I will use the rear seat mounting points then use maybe 1" or so rubber or composite
mounts to take up some of those vibrations. Rather than hard mounting it to the
car. Layer or rubber, layer of CCF, layer like this until I get that 1" or better. I will
do the buffers on the sheet metal side along with the bolt to washer side where the
bolts will contact the enclosure.


----------



## Wesayso

So basicly my car is a driving lab to develop yours . Now I know why yours still isn't finished (lol, just kidding)


----------



## JayinMI

Someone needs to give me a 911 so I can get in on this. Don't worry, I'm not greedy, one of those Singer ones will do. lol

I've always liked these cars, but my GF thinks they look like frogs. lol

Jay


----------



## Wesayso

Have you driven one? I don't want another car, I love this one .


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Wesayso said:


> So basicly my car is a driving lab to develop yours . Now I know why yours still isn't finished (lol, just kidding)


BINGO......

BY the way, I'm mounting the door cards now... been raining for
2 days.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

JayinMI said:


> Someone needs to give me a 911 so I can get in on this. Don't worry, I'm not greedy, one of those Singer ones will do. lol
> 
> I've always liked these cars, but my GF thinks they look like frogs. lol
> 
> Jay


Jay,

Look like "frogs"???

Just tell her one of the views you have of her from time to time
look like.... OH HELL BAD IDEA
Now I know why I don't have a woman, my mute button doesn't
work so well from time to time.


----------



## JayinMI

No, I've never driven a Singer. I've driven a couple of 911's, a couple of 996's, but mainly just short distances (around the building, or through the local neighborhood to test out navigation.) My favorite Porsche would have to be a 356 coupe.

If I told her that, I'd wouldn't have a woman either...and I live in her house. lol

Jay


----------



## FLYONWALL9

JayinMI said:


> If I told her that, I'd wouldn't have a woman either...and I live in her house. lol
> 
> Jay


Yeah, better hold back on that then. lol...


----------



## Wesayso

My new vibration damped subwoofer mount:









I made 3 mount strips from 20 x 4 mm steel strip. Tapped 2 holes with M4 threads and welded a 5mm nut to the back so I could attach them to the back of the chassis edge the sub is resting on with 2x 4 mm bolts leaving a M5 hole in the middle. Glued MLV to the bottom of the sub-box and neoprene weather stripping to the chassis edge. Also glued mlv to the backside of the 4 x 20 mm top mounting strips and put the neoprene weatherstripping on the box itself (the brown stuff). Drilled the holes oversize in the sub-box top plate to not let the M5 bolts touch the sub-box.
The box is now clamped between neoprene + MLV on both sides.
For assurance I glued an old bicycle inner tube to the box itself where it could be touching metal.

Still need to check the time alignment and EQ, maybe it changed due to less rattles but so far, so good. Less rattles than before and I can actually play E-40's Tell me when to go without rattles this time!  (might still hear something in the instrument cluster though, it is way less than before. It rattles in the same place when I drive over over bumps too)

Had to drill a couple of holes for the mounting strips but these cannot be seen even with the original smugglar box lid back in place. And I doubt I'll ever sell this car in the next 10+ years.

If I'm still satisfied by the end of the week I'll think about re-doing my door baffles with a vibration damped construction as well. I'll replace the MDF baffles with aluminum or RVS ones and will add a small ring between the baffle and the HDPE mounting ring. I'll dampen the baffle to door as well as the door card seperately to minimise vibrations.


----------



## Wesayso

Wesayso said:


> Just watched the 2007 Led Zeppelin O2 arena show in the cinema... Hope they make the 20 million viewers worldwide, the place was packed!


DVD is out today in Europe...


----------



## Wesayso

Wesayso said:


> My new vibration damped subwoofer mount:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I made 3 mount strips from 20 x 4 mm steel strip. Tapped 2 holes with M4 threads and welded a 5mm nut to the back so I could attach them to the back of the chassis edge the sub is resting on with 2x 4 mm bolts leaving a M5 hole in the middle. Glued MLV to the bottom of the sub-box and neoprene weather stripping to the chassis edge. Also glued mlv to the backside of the 4 x 20 mm top mounting strips and put the neoprene weatherstripping on the box itself (the brown stuff). Drilled the holes oversize in the sub-box top plate to not let the M5 bolts touch the sub-box.
> The box is now clamped between neoprene + MLV on both sides.
> For assurance I glued an old bicycle inner tube to the box itself where it could be touching metal.
> 
> Still need to check the time alignment and EQ, maybe it changed due to less rattles but so far, so good. Less rattles than before and I can actually play E-40's Tell me when to go without rattles this time!  (might still hear something in the instrument cluster though, it is way less than before. It rattles in the same place when I drive over over bumps too)
> 
> Had to drill a couple of holes for the mounting strips but these cannot be seen even with the original smugglar box lid back in place. And I doubt I'll ever sell this car in the next 10+ years.
> 
> If I'm still satisfied by the end of the week I'll think about re-doing my door baffles with a vibration damped construction as well. I'll replace the MDF baffles with aluminum or RVS ones and will add a small ring between the baffle and the HDPE mounting ring. I'll dampen the baffle to door as well as the door card seperately to minimise vibrations.


Well I am kinda dissapointed. In my enthausiasm I changed more than one thing. I swapped out the fill in my sub box from cheap insulation material (I had fibre glass insulation in there and swapped it for polyfill damping blankets) to Polyfill blankets and enjoyed the fibreglass fill more.
I may try some other material but I first have to source it. Meanwhile I'll swap back to the fibre glass material.
I traced the last bits of rattles to my steering column. That column has a mounting point in the smuglars box the sub is mounted in. Even with all of the vibration dampener material in there it resonates/vibrates on very low notes.
90% of music has no problems, only bass heavy stuff presents some rattles.
Do I dare change the mounting of that column to decouple it?








_Mounting point in smugglars box_


----------



## Spyke

Wesayso said:


> Well I am kinda dissapointed. In my enthausiasm I changed more than one thing. I swapped out the fill in my sub box from cheap insulation material (I had fibre glass insulation in there and swapped it for polyfill damping blankets) to Polyfill blankets and enjoyed the fibreglass fill more.
> I may try some other material but I first have to source it. Meanwhile I'll swap back to the fibre glass material.
> I traced the last bits of rattles to my steering column. That column has a mounting point in the smuglars box the sub is mounted in. Even with all of the vibration dampener material in there it resonates/vibrates on very low notes.
> 90% of music has no problems, only bass heavy stuff presents some rattles.
> Do I dare change the mounting of that column to decouple it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Mounting point in smugglars box_


If you mean to change the way that it is mounted by putting spacers of some kind in, then definitely not. A steering column should not rattle however. If you have a rattle in the column perhaps it is due to a loose component. In which case it would def be worth repairing or replacing any worn parts regardless.


----------



## Wesayso

Spyke said:


> If you mean to change the way that it is mounted by putting spacers of some kind in, then definitely not. A steering column should not rattle however. If you have a rattle in the column perhaps it is due to a loose component. In which case it would def be worth repairing or replacing any worn parts regardless.


Lol.... no worn parts in here... It does not rattle itself. It is merely a conductor for the sub waves (resonance) and that makes my instrument cluster rattle. I know I cannot change the mounting point itself. But I can isolate it more from the sheet metal it is mounted on.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with my steering though. But when the dash rattles and I put my knee under the steering column and put pressure on it upwards the rattle stops. The movement is only minor but related to the upfront sub waves.
It has no play at all. Replaced bushings in the column 3 months ago.
I am a licensed car mechanic so don't worry. I do all the work on this car myself to maintain it's condition.

Try it yourself. Pick up a broomstick and bolt it to your sub enclosure. Does it vibrate? Now do the same but this time clamp the stick between rubber, no bolts directly trough the broomstick. Does it vibrate less?

I allready have the clamping construction from Porsche. Maybe it's enough just adding a thin layer of rubber/neoprene between the clamp that does the trick. I'll first look up the parts in Porsche's PET catalogue.

My other option would be to dampen all moving parts in my instrument cluster . That should fix it but no way the meters would tell me anything anymore...

I was kinda hoping isolating the subbox from the sheetmetal would reduce it enough. I'm not giving up on that thought yet. Just checking out other means to the same goal.

Here's the steering column in Porsche's PET:








Part 24 is a rubber ring that should isolate the steering column. I'll look into replacing that for a fresh one as this part IS 30 years old and probably making it more stiff than it should be.


----------



## Spyke

Wesayso said:


> Lol.... no worn parts in here... It does not rattle itself. It is merely a conductor for the sub waves (resonance) and that makes my instrument cluster rattle. I know I cannot change the mounting point itself. But I can isolate it more from the sheet metal it is mounted on.
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with my steering though. But when the dash rattles and I put my knee under the steering column and put pressure on it upwards the rattle stops. The movement is only minor but related to the upfront sub waves.
> It has no play at all. Replaced bushings in the column 3 months ago.
> I am a licensed car mechanic so don't worry. I do all the work on this car myself to maintain it's condition.
> 
> Try it yourself. Pick up a broomstick and bolt it to your sub enclosure. Does it vibrate? Now do the same but this time clamp the stick between rubber, no bolts directly trough the broomstick. Does it vibrate less?
> 
> I allready have the clamping construction from Porsche. Maybe it's enough just adding a thin layer of rubber/neoprene between the clamp that does the trick. I'll first look up the parts in Porsche's PET catalogue.
> 
> My other option would be to dampen all moving parts in my instrument cluster . That should fix it but no way the meters would tell me anything anymore...


I don't think that putting anything between the mount and sheet metal is going to help. It will still have to be fastened securely and thus will probably still be able to transmit the vibration. The other option does not seem very agreeable from a classic car standpoint. I have a few rattles left but they really don't bother me much. And like you said, it's only about 1 in 10 songs that do it. You could try to isolate the mount but I wouldn't start damping everything at the expense of your cars functionality. Imo it's very difficult to stop all rattles. Every surface in your car has a resonant freq and every surface interacts in some way to another surface. Eventually your gonna hit a freq that causes a rattle.


----------



## Spyke

Wesayso said:


> Part 24 is a rubber ring that should isolate the steering column. I'll look into replacing that for a fresh one as this part IS 30 years old and probably making it more stiff than it should be.


That's the part that caught my eye.


----------



## Wesayso

Spyke said:


> That's the part that caught my eye.


A fresh one could do wonders! It's 12 euro so worth the try... meanwhile I'll keep trying to avoid this kind of resonance further. The more pure music, the better it sounds .

Don't worry, whatever I do it will not mess with the functionality of the car.
I drive this thing every day so it better be fun doing so!


----------



## Wesayso

Just went bak in there and changed a couple of things. Added some neoprene here, removed some rubber there. Stayed away from the steering column . Added some open cell foam between the car and the sub box and pressed it back in. It's firm back in its place but dampened. Took out the polyfill mats and put back some fibreglass insulation. It works like before the change to polyfill, making the bass good to follow again and the room seem bigger than it is.


----------



## Spyke

Good to hear. I hate using fiberglass insulation as opposed to loose polyfil. It there really that much of a difference in sound?


----------



## Wesayso

Spyke said:


> I don't think that putting anything between the mount and sheet metal is going to help. It will still have to be fastened securely and thus will probably still be able to transmit the vibration. The other option does not seem very agreeable from a classic car standpoint. I have a few rattles left but they really don't bother me much. And like you said, it's only about 1 in 10 songs that do it. You could try to isolate the mount but I wouldn't start damping everything at the expense of your cars functionality. Imo it's very difficult to stop all rattles. Every surface in your car has a resonant freq and every surface interacts in some way to another surface. Eventually your gonna hit a freq that causes a rattle.


I have been on this anti rattle raid for quite some time. For every rattle solved I get more clear music in return. It works quite well and 9 out of 10 times is a cheap way to improve your system. I'll keep on doing this till I hear nothing but music. Most times a simple piece of deadener, MLV or open cell foam will solve the problem. It is amazing what this accomplishes in the end.
Just try it, it's almost free!
Sure you solve one rattle and hear another one. But after a while it is difficult to hear any rattles at all. That's very rewarding. Even more so than swapping speakers!

I can play a drum track like the Ron Tutt - Improvisation without rattles. It's fun and makes it seem more real. That is actually an easy track, stuff like "Rodrigo Y Gabriela - The Pirate That Should Not Be" is a lot harder. 

But the end result is worth it. It is amazing listening to Orchestra's and hear the bigger space. Still scaled down of coarse but rattles mess up this projection.


----------



## Wesayso

Spyke said:


> Good to hear. I hate using fiberglass insulation as opposed to loose polyfil. It there really that much of a difference in sound?


I did'n have loose polyfill. These were mats, I thought I was buying the right stuff. I got 2 mats and it didn't sound like before. I have kind of a peak (EQ-ed down) at ~50 Hz and with Fibreglass it is less pronounced. The fill also gave me a less hollow sound. Before the fibreglass I had nothing in there exept some egg crate foam on the bottom.


I plan on trying this: TWARON Angel Hair though. I don't buy all the claims they make but I have seen tests that show a little of this stuff goes a long way. It is better than sheep wool behind mids to absorb back waves. Can't hurt to try...

I have a lead to this stuff to try it out. Going to try it behind the mids too.


----------



## The Baron Groog

Have you looked at activated carbon/charcoal for your enclosure-I know KEF use it in some of theirs: Activated carbon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

RE the steering column debate-used to get 2-3" of travel on my steering wheel-was running an 18" Stroker in a French car and a customer of mine broke his steering column after installing two 15" Hifonics Brutus and 2400wrms of amplification-Hyundai Coupe


----------



## Wesayso

The Baron Groog said:


> RE the steering column debate-used to get 2-3" of travel on my steering wheel-was running an 18" Stroker in a French car and a customer of mine broke his steering column after installing two 15" Hifonics Brutus and 2400wrms of amplification-Hyundai Coupe


Good to know! 

I read about that activated charcoal on this forum a while back. The only reason I am going to try the Twaron stuff is because I have a lead. I have done work for them in the past.

I don't know how well it works for sub enclosures but for mids you (a lot) need less Twaron Angel Hair compared to long hair wool.

See this video for more info (not mine, his English is horrible, hope I do better)





I don't buy all of the mambo jambo but if I can get some cheap it can't hurt to try right?


----------



## Wesayso

I revised my dampened subwoofer mount. I figured the contact patch to the box was too big. I got some souple rubber and made a few circles about the size of a Euro.
Glued 2 of them together for every bolt used (3x). 
This improved the damping big time! I still need to go back in to do the same to the back of the mount. I'll wait till i get the new damping material to do that.

Spyke, if you're still following this build: Get rid of every rattle you can find! Even more important treat the resonance. It make the music much more real and it lets you get sucked into the songs. I know it seems hard to do but it is very rewarding. It's not easy for a system that hits hard even at 20 Hz.
So far I can't even remember the places I stuck some egg crate foam in. Or the little pieces of CLD butylene based dampener between the point welded parts here and there (roof, hood etc). I'll continue treating all I can find but it get's way harder to hear them .
Played a track from David Guetta (Love is Gone from one of the Focal discs), fearing the bass part but hey... it didn't hit that low. It does hit hard and clear. No rattles! Still don't like the genre though.

So E-40 and the Rodrigo y Gabriela tracks continue to be my low resonance/rattle tests.


----------



## Spyke

Everything is already pretty well deadened. I couldn't for the life of me figure out where the rattles were coming from and then realized that it was the sound of the trunk lid rattling that was traveling into the cab somehow. The lid is deadened as well but i'm not too worried about the rattle since it only comes on at high volume and on very bass heavy tracks. Other than that it gets drowned out by the mids and highs. 

Btw, If you want to test your low lows get some Mike Jones. The albums I have are "Who is Mike Jones" and "The voice". Its some pretty terrible "music" and there's only a few tracks that i'll listen to, but it has some *very* low bass.


----------



## subwoofery

Spyke said:


> Everything is already pretty well deadened. I couldn't for the life of me figure out where the rattles were coming from and then realized that it was the sound of the trunk lid rattling that was traveling into the cab somehow. The lid is deadened as well but i'm not too worried about the rattle since it only comes on at high volume and on very bass heavy tracks. Other than that it gets drowned out by the mids and highs.
> 
> Btw, If you want to test your low lows get some Mike Jones. The albums I have are "Who is Mike Jones" and "The voice". Its some pretty terrible "music" and there's only a few tracks that i'll listen to, but it has some *very low bass.*


How low? Coz most Rap are in the 35Hz-45Hz range when people think they have 20Hz notes 

Kelvin


----------



## Wesayso

subwoofery said:


> How low? Coz most Rap are in the 35Hz-45Hz range when people think they have 20Hz notes
> 
> Kelvin


Very true... I know when i hit 20 Hz hard because my floor goes funny .


----------



## Spyke

subwoofery said:


> How low? Coz most Rap are in the 35Hz-45Hz range when people think they have 20Hz notes
> 
> Kelvin


It does have the standard 30-40 but there is some that goes almost inaudible. I haven't measured it but it's the kind of low where you can see the sub move clearly.

Edit: I'll put it this way. I don't listen to a lot of rap but it's not the usual "rap bass".


----------



## Wesayso

Two weeks and no turning on any knobs! I must be getting close!
The car sounds better and bigger than ever before. I'm very happy after all this time trying different things.
I'm still going to try a few mods though. I should have some "Angel Hair" soon and will try it behind the woofer and maybe even in the tweeter in place of the current material as seen here:








_(found on this website: Vifa's guts: XT25SC90 on the table.)_

I finally managed to find a crossover combination that sounds wide, open and deep, making the listening area seem bigger than it is.
Crossed both tweeters at 4 Khz/6dB slope, left woofer at 1.6 kHz/ 6 dB slope and right woofer 9passenger side) 1.6 kHz/ 12dB slope. Highpass on woofers is 80 Hz/12 dB and 63 Hz/12 dB on sub. 
Combined with some EQ and manual TA it gives a very nice life like feel and a good left/right balance.


----------



## Spyke

Is that pocket lint? Glad you're closing in on your target sound. I have recently slowed down tuning recently. I'm always trying other things but I keep coming back to the same settings, which is a good thing I guess. I used to be a fan of "shallow and wide" and i'll admit that it does have a pleasant sound to it. I went the other direction and am currently: Sub [email protected] Mid [email protected] to [email protected] and High [email protected] I feel that since I have the tweets high in the door and woofers down in the kicks, a high xo point really cuts down on localization and staging issues. That, and it also keeps the vocals coming from equidistant sources.


----------



## Wesayso

Looks like pocket lint, doesn't it? 
For me the shallow slopes just work. Maybe it is because the tweeter is close to the mid in my case. I don't believe I get an accoustic 6 dB slope out of my left woofer because of the off axis position roll off. It might even be a 18 dB slope and with the oposite side at 12 dB it just works. Before this I usually had the slopes on tweeters and woofers the same(ex 12 dB on both) but why worry if it just works out. 

These numbers and slopes gives a very good transition and I can't tell I have speakers. Just a 3D image of the music and not even a rainbow stage that I always had with steaper slopes. Steaper slopes always got me in trouble with certain singers, might be ringing. 12 dB sounded nice but this is the winner for me.
It took some time figuring out but I had close to this sound before my Genesis amp quit on me. After it's repair and upgrade it took me a while to get it back to that. It's better now because of the passive filter help on the tweeters. My bass has improved tenfold by isolating it from the sheetmetal. I have no rattles or resonances exept on 2 or 3 songs with deep deep bass. That brought me a deeper stage and strange as it sounds, my bridged (summed?) left and right channel on the sub have different TA settings.
I think it is because of the BBE processing I have on but haven't checked yet. All I know it is way better than before and I did it by setting TA with a tone at 71.5 Hz and a SPL meter. I muted left channel and set TA on the right and vice versa. Checked with both playing and it just works. I know the BBE is messing with phase somehow but at it's lowest setting I love what it does. Drums sound very real this way and without it I am missing something.


----------



## Spyke

Wesayso said:


> * my bridged (summed?) left and right channel on the sub have different TA settings.*


Wow, that's pretty interesting. I can def see *how* it would work, but i'd be worried about heating up sub and/ro the amp. There's something about playing the same freq but at different times through the same speaker. Maybe it's not how i'm imagining it but it seems like the sub would be trying to fight itself. Oh well, if it sounds good, it's right.


----------



## Wesayso

It's just summing the signal within the amp. I think I am aligning what BBE messes up in the left and right signal.


----------



## Wesayso

Just had to post this video...
More Singer goodness...


----------



## Spyke

Wesayso said:


>


Hmm, I see a bike and cobblestone street so I know it's not America but also a Budweiser sign. What gives? Is this your car?


----------



## nineball

no, that is a singer 911. watch the video.


----------



## Wesayso

Spyke said:


> Hmm, I see a bike and cobblestone street so I know it's not America but also a Budweiser sign. What gives? Is this your car?


I wouldn't refuse it but sadly can't afford it . I'd probably would end up upgrading the stereo system anyway .

By the way, Photo was shot in New York (as far as I know)
More here: New York | Singer Vehicle Design

Hmm.. new page, one more picture then:









And a link for those that missed it: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJQ4hQSusjE


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## Spyke

Wesayso said:


> I wouldn't refuse it but sadly can't afford it . I'd probably would end up upgrading the stereo system anyway .
> 
> By the way, Photo was shot in New York (as far as I know)


Gotcha. I didn't think anyone in this country exercised but at the same time I didn't think anyone else drank our crappy beer. New York....that explains it.


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## bertholomey

Just an incredible looking car! I think if I had those kinds of funds, I'd rather buy one of these versus a new exotic. 

Loved the video - really like CH - he was in the first video I watched driving the BRZ. Brilliant!


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## 1998993C2S

*1998 Carrera S Coupe . . . . till death do us part.*



Wesayso said:


> Have you driven one? I don't want another car, I love this one .



+1 
The evolution of these cars is astonishing. The Singer car is a Monarch/Cliff Notes version of chassis's through the years.

The model year '98 wide body coupe we have drives like an ole shoe, your favorite pair. The coupe was ordered with the full leather option so there is black leather on most every surface....Continues to smell like fresh hides after 14 years and when the 3.6 boxer engine fires up ...... Varooom.


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## Wesayso

*Re: 1998 Carrera S Coupe . . . . till death do us part.*



1998993C2S said:


> +1
> The evolution of these cars is astonishing. The Singer car is a Monarch Notes version of chassis's through the years.
> 
> The model year '98 wide body coupe we have drives like an ole shoe, your favorite pair. The coupe was ordered with the full leather option so there is black leather on most every surface....Continues to smell like fresh hides after 14 years and when the 3.6 boxer engine fires up ...... Varooom.


Got a picture to share?


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## JayinMI

Wesayso said:


> I wouldn't refuse it but sadly can't afford it . I'd probably would end up upgrading the stereo system anyway .
> 
> By the way, Photo was shot in New York (as far as I know)
> More here: New York | Singer Vehicle Design


That video was a nice touch, I had no idea exactly what they did. It's so subtle. If I had the money to buy one, I'd certainly have to look into it.
Mine would be green, and I'd get a plate that said "The Frog" as an homage to my GF who thinks 911's look like frogs. LOL

Jay


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## 1998993C2S

*Re: 1998 Carrera S Coupe . . . . till death do us part.*



Wesayso said:


> Got a picture to share?


The exterior picture was taken at the Porsche factories Werk One facility, Stuttgart, in 2002. 
Werk One is a "dreams do come true" facility within Porsche AG.
The 3 interior pictures are more recent - having just started to fit the P99 head unit ala active system.

The killer 959 cars are shipped to Werk One for service.... picture 5.


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## Wesayso

*Re: 1998 Carrera S Coupe . . . . till death do us part.*



1998993C2S said:


> The exterior picture was taken at the Porsche factories Werk One facility in 2002.
> Werk One is a "dreams do come true" facility within Porsche AG.
> The 3 interior pictures are more recent - having just started to fit the P99 head unit ala active system.
> 
> The killer 959 cars are shipped to Werk One for service.... picture 5.


Nice! what is the rest of the equipment? Or do you use the original speakers first.


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## Hanatsu

Can't believe I've missed your build thread. Nice setup indeed, looks awesome as well!

I might post a build thread of my own soon too. Well, well. Sub'd!


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## Wesayso

JayinMI said:


> That video was a nice touch, I had no idea exactly what they did. It's so subtle. If I had the money to buy one, I'd certainly have to look into it.
> Mine would be green, and I'd get a plate that said "The Frog" as an homage to my GF who thinks 911's look like frogs. LOL
> 
> Jay


Nice, isn't it? I just love the overall theme. It looks like a classic till you figure out those wheels can't be 15 or 16" Fuchs, they are huge! Also love the flow of the fenders. It isn't 911 Turbo flares, it isn't 911 ST flares but it does work. Very nicely done. The stereo could have been better though (lol).


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## Wesayso

Hanatsu said:


> Can't believe I've missed your build thread. Nice setup indeed, looks awesome as well!
> 
> I might post a build thread of my own soon too. Well, well. Sub'd!


Thanks! I hope you decide to do a build thread. It's fun! Maybe I can ask you about that 3 way Illuminator home speakers on that thread (lol).

Here are my plans for home speakers: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-home-pro-audio/114489-roger-russells-ids-25-line-array-diy-questions-would-work.html


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## 1998993C2S

*Re: 1998 Carrera S Coupe . . . . till death do us part.*



Wesayso said:


> Nice! what is the rest of the equipment? Or do you use the original speakers first.


Hey Wesayso -
The HiFi option for the 1998 911 (993) consists of a door mounted tweeter, a door mounted bass reflex enclosure housing a 130mm (5.25”) woofer and a 80mm (3.00”) full range speaker. Power is supplied by a modest 20w external amp mounted under the passenger seat. Nokia is the author of this OEM HiFi option (490).
The bass speaker gets its direct signal from the amp up to about 300hz. The full range 3’’ speaker gets its full range signal directly from the amp with the tweeter piggybacked wired with a capacitor for protection. It’s a cheap, simple design drummed up from the early ‘90s and put into production starting with the ’94 –’98 911 (993). The head unit is a Becker/Porsche CDR-210 (AM/FM/CD) with high level output to the Nokia external amp. There's an additional Porsche 993 option of a Sony/Porsche 6 CD changer - trunk mounted. The CDR-210 head unit does not provide for an AUX input.

The starting point for this install is that everything will be stealth …. With that in mind, the gutted OE tweeter pods are now Dynaudio tweet’s from a VW Phaeton sedan and what was once a 3” full range speaker is now a 3” dome mid-range speaker sourced from a Dynaudio VW Passat. The OE bass-reflex enclosure becomes a low-mid using 130mm (5.25”) speaker from what ,,, I’m not sure. If you have any recommendations on a good, better, *best* 130mm speaker I’m all ears. I’ve tried a few 130mm speakers however haven’t settled on anything just yet. I suppose a good starting point would be to measure the volume of the enclosure…. The 130mm woofer (LPT 130/25/120 FG. ITT Brand) used by Nokia was, back in the day, also used by B&O in their Red Stripe 60’s series speakers in the early ‘90s. A sub-woofer will be located under the dash sacrificing the glove compartment. – I saw this with my own eyes in another 993 coupe. It’s a slick 8” sub-woofer install and plenty for our 911 interior space. I’ll dig up the How-To photos of the sub install.


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## Wesayso

*Re: 1998 Carrera S Coupe . . . . till death do us part.*



1998993C2S said:


> Hey Wesayso -
> The HiFi option on the 993 series 911s consists of a door mounted tweeter, a door mounted bass reflex enclosure housing a 130mm (5.25”) woofer and a 80mm (3.00”) full range speaker. Power is supplied by a modest 20w external amp mounted under the passenger seat. Nokia is the author of this OEM HiFi option (490).
> The bass speaker gets its direct signal from the amp up to about 300hz. The full range 3’’ speaker gets its full range signal directly from the amp with the tweeter piggybacked wired with a capacitor for protection. It’s a cheap, simple design drummed up from the early ‘90s and put into production starting with the ’94 –’98 911 (993).
> 
> The starting point for this install is the everything must be stealth …. So with that in mind the gutted OE tweeter pods are now Dynaudio tweet’s from a VW Phaeton sedan and what was once a 3” full range speaker is now a 3” dome mid-range speaker sourced from a Dynaudio VW Passat. The OE bass-reflex enclosure becomes a low-mid using 130mm (5.25”) speaker from what ,,, I’m not sure. If you have any recommendations on a good, better, *best* 130mm speaker I’m all ears. I’ve tried a few 130mm speakers however haven’t settled on anything just yet. I suppose a good starting point would be to measure the volume of the enclosure…. The 130mm woofer used by Nokia was, back in the day, also used by B&O in their Red Stripe 60’s series speakers in the early ‘90s. A sub-woofer will be located under the dash sacrificing the glove compartment. – I saw this with my own eyes in another 993 coupe. It’s a slick 8” sub-woofer install and plenty for our 911 interior space. I’ll dig up the How-To photos of the sub install.


8" sub will be plenty, I know . As long as the airspace is available for your needs. Or lots of power and EQ. 

Have you looked into the Scan Speak 5.25" Revelator woofers? If you can fit them I bet they would do great. Do check the airspace, small sealed could be an option though. To small and ported does not seem right to me.
http://www.solen.ca/pdf/scan/15w4531g00.pdf
With an upfront sub you can be flexible with crossover points so ported midbass shouldn't be required. Cabin gain will take care of the low end.


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## Hanatsu

Wesayso said:


> Thanks! I hope you decide to do a build thread. It's fun! Maybe I can ask you about that 3 way Illuminator home speakers on that thread (lol).
> 
> Here are my plans for home speakers: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...s-25-line-array-diy-questions-would-work.html


Wow. Those speakers are quite the project. You can ask away any time about my Scan towers, didn't design the crossovers though 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Wesayso

Not much done, I guess I'm satisfied with the car system. But did fix that last annoying rattle in my roof (cover plate of the electric roof).

Found it with this song:





Lorde - Royals (16 year old girl, good work!)

All of my energy is now focused on finishing my home speakers to match the sound in the car .


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## stylngle2003

shame she's only 16 ;-)
love that song though, and I admit, I've used it to find some rattles in my Avalon as well!


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## Wesayso

Wesayso said:


> Just watched the 2007 Led Zeppelin O2 arena show in the cinema... Hope they make the 20 million viewers worldwide, the place was packed!


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## Wesayso

Has it been this long since I last visited this thread?
I still enjoy the same system. Nothing has changed. I guess I've been too busy with my home speakers and almost forgot about this thread...
Sad to see so many links pop up in the threads though. Things have changed...


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## Wesayso

It has been a while since I last visited this thread. My Stereo is still up to par and I have been enjoying the tunes ever since.

However the time has come to be a little more caring for the old Porsche. It has been driven daily for almost 12 years. (one month short, actually).
I decided to promote it to "Oldtimer" status and bought another daily driver to take care of those duties.

I feel another project coming on, I won't start right away, I'll look at what's possible first. Luckily Pioneer still builds some cute 3 and 4 way ready single din units.

My home Stereo has been the focus point in all these years of absence.








_(more about that here...)_

I've been having such a ball with that and learning a lot in the process. This Car journey started it all though, and I won't forget that.

Anyway, here's both the current and former daily driver after a fresh wash:









Hope to start something this year, I missed my tunes this last month...


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## Hanatsu

Still love your towers  (Cool table you got there too.)

Any stereo planned for the TT?


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## Wesayso

Yes, that's the new project, at some point.

Probably something very similar to the 911, though I'll have to see what fits in these doors...


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## Wesayso

(lol) the table and desk you see in the picture were made from left-overs from the floor, real Oak wood, fun to work with... hard as a rock!


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## 1998993C2S

Welcome back .. We-say-so . . . 
And best of luck with the new daily driver Audi TT. A ground breaking exterior aesthetic, the Audi TT.

Thanks again for the Vifa XT25 sc-90 04 tweeter recommendation. I followed suit with the 993's OEM tweeter/door located pods. The Vifa Xt25 ring radiator was an easy retro-fit into these OE pods. Others on the worldwide Porsche site Rennlist.com have also followed suit. 

Cheers, Mike Schneider


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## Wesayso

Thanks Mike,

No doubt that Viva tweeter did not disappoint! That's what will end up in my TT doors as well. A car that I see becoming another classic in due time. Only the Mk1 (8n) though.
It is clear to see where the inspiration came from in the lines of that car, I love it.

Ronald


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## Wesayso

End of the line for this build. I sold the car and am currently dismantling the Stereo.
I'm keeping the Genesis Series III four channel and Stereo 60 and the drivers.
They may end up in the Audi TT I drive nowadays. I've always lusted after the Pioneer P99RS,
that would be a nice fit and possibly giving me band pass and time alignment for some Ambience
speakers in the back?
Mixed feelings parting with this car. Lots of fun it was!


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## Wesayso

After a few simple mods (Koni shocks, H&R springs, 19" x 8.5J front, 19" x 9.5J rear) the car kind of feels like home again. If and when I find the time I'll build the old stereo system into this car.
A desk model of a 911 (1:18) is always nearby. Yes, I hated to let it go. I just wasn't up for a total restoration. After 16 years of ownership and, for the most part of that period, daily usage, even on salty roads time caught up and the car needed attention.
It is in the hands of someone close and it will be back on the road soon in excellent condition. Simply said, the car was worth it to be saved and I didn't have the means to do it.


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