# Zapco 1350 dyno.



## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

https://youtu.be/JnE1td4UcFA


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Red Saber said:


> https://youtu.be/JnE1td4UcFA


Shame on Zapco if they had any.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Yeah that’s a bit pathetic isn’t it.


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Damn, just received a new one as of a week ago...such is the excellent timing.
Well, maybe I'll look elsewhere now, especially aiming for 4 ohm rather than 2


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Sucks for the ones that already have one. 
Wonder how the 4 channel will do. That’s the go too around here.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

yukk


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Red Saber said:


> Sucks for the ones that already have one.
> Wonder how the 4 channel will do. That’s the go too around here.


Yeah, also looked like he had a class d 4 channel there too. I also went and got the st204 D SQ for my 4 channel...that was more than the 1350...


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

It’s going to be bad if that tiny Rockford he did yesterday out does the 4 channel.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

If the 4 channel mirrors the mono results thats when there will be a meltdown on diyma with riots ensuing and family members being burnt at the stake.


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Gump_Runner said:


> If the 4 channel mirrors the mono results thats when there will be a meltdown on diyma with riots ensuing and family members being burnt at the stake.


It's pissed me right off, I've gone from looking at running [email protected] ohm, to [email protected] ohm after a change in subs last night. Not too bad, it'll do fine, carry on.

But that now may be as low as [email protected] ohm. Or I could just run it at 1 ohm


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

I wonder if the rest of the mono’s follow suit. The 1000 is really a 850.


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## 555nova (Apr 12, 2014)

Don't have a dog in this fight what so ever, but is there any chance that something was overlooked during the rebuild of this amp causing it to be down on power? I'm not sure that would be a better or worse look for zapco.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

The first stage of grief is Denial.
"Denial is a common defense mechanism that buffers the immediate shock of the loss, numbing us to our emotions. We block out the words and hide from the facts. We start to believe that life is meaningless, and nothing is of any value any longer. For most people experiencing grief, this stage is a temporary response that carries us through the first wave of pain."
The second stage is Anger.
This is easy to describe. This stage of grief will use Anger to attack and attempt to shame/discredit the person which performed the amp test. 
Examples:
1. The equipment used in test is the wrong equipment.
2. The equipment is faulty.
3. The person operating equipment "does not understand" the testing process.
4. The person performing test is part of a conspiracy to discredit amp manufacturer.
5. Etc...Etc..Etc
Soundstream and PPI changing boards is a little thunderstorm compared to the coming tsunami if the 4-channel tanks.


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

No denial when facts and figures are involved. Like he's not quite hitting voltage...but the bearing there isn't going to make that difference.

It is slightly annoying through that it was a refurb unit, as usually you'd want to see clean new units in tests like these. That can go both ways though, refurbs might have more QC involved in them as you have people hands on repairing and testing them. 

Like you say, whatever is coming up next will be key in this.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Minibull said:


> No denial when facts and figures are involved. Like he's not quite hitting voltage...but the bearing there isn't going to make that difference.
> 
> It is slightly annoying through that it was a refurb unit, as usually you'd want to see clean new units in tests like these. That can go both ways though, refurbs might have more QC involved in them as you have people hands on repairing and testing them.
> 
> Like you say, whatever is coming up next will be key in this.


Agreed on the wait and see. The others will have to make up the difference then I might be able to chalk it up to being a referb which still looks bad but maybe others didn’t get shafted.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

He said they are sending him a new one to test. 
This could be interesting to say the least. 
Maybe they have a referb issue. Most companies farm that service out.


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Big deep breath for me, almost cheaped out & did an all ST-X build. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Isn’t there a Zapco Rep on this site?


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

I wonder how many people are silently ashamed right now. 
I talked to Ryan. The board had 1350 stamped on it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Just talked to the new distributors (hybrid audio) about this. So apparently this was an amp that was repaired by who knows, and was sold unauthorized by the old distributor just to clear out stock (they actually tried getting me to buy a bunch of these). I personally have no idea if changing transistors can do this to an amp as amp repair is not something i am even remotely familiar with. But apparently a new, unused, unabused, and not repaired by god knows who was sent out to be tested. As of right now, im not happy as a zapco dealer. But, i realize that this may not paint the whole picture. I'll be keeping my eyes out for updated results.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

He hasn’t ran up the 4 channels yet


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Just talked to the new distributors (hybrid audio) about this. So apparently this was an amp that was repaired by who knows, and was sold unauthorized by the old distributor just to clear out stock (they actually tried getting me to buy a bunch of these. Apparently a new, unused, unabused, and not repaired by god knows who was sent out to be tested. As of right now, im not happy as a zapco dealer. But, i realize that this may not paint the whole picture. I'll be keeping my eyes out for updated results.


If "reputable" amps keep poppin on the dyno I see a time (in the near future) where dealers start investing in the equipment to test amps sold before installed.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Between this and the repaired Sundown that bombed it’s been a crazy week in car audio


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Gump_Runner said:


> If "reputable" amps keep poppin on the dyno I see a time (in the near future) where dealers start investing in the equipment to test amps sold before installed.


you mean a scope and a meter? i'd hope every dealer has those. Unfortunately most cant afford a dyno.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Did anyone see Big D’s “The One” dyno? 
It was a $6000 bust. I knew those didn’t make rated a long time ago.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Red Saber said:


> Between this and the repaired Sundown that bombed it’s been a crazy week in car audio


maybe it has to do with the repair work? common theme here as sundowns amps have always done rated on the dyno

PS, whats up Derek


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> you mean a scope and a meter? i'd hope every dealer has those. Unfortunately most cant afford a dyno.


How much is a dyno?


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

SkizeR said:


> maybe it has to do with the repair work? common theme here as sundowns amps have always done rated on the dyno
> 
> PS, whats up Derek


Hi nick. I’m trying to make a fresh start. 
Give me a chance. 
Btw. I got a set of these lol. The 1k though. 
It did kill some noise when the radio is off. 
But I miss all that powa. And man 4sq gets hot. Working on a fan now.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Gump_Runner said:


> How much is a dyno?


Almost 4000. But then you also need a massive power supply, and batteries. easily over 5000 dollar investment.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Gump_Runner said:


> How much is a dyno?


$3500
Plus the power supply. So $5000


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## 04quadcab (Dec 31, 2017)

Red Saber said:


> Agreed on the wait and see.


Yep, we have one data point so far. It's not like some brands that have repeatedly failed to make power in multiple test by multiple people (I am looking at you Maxxsonics). At this point we have one refurbished amp from a reputable manufacture that did not hit its rated power. 

I stumbled across Zapco's budget amp line and noticed that the price per watt was competitive with entry level amps from several reputable mainstream companies, so I was excited to see this test pop up on YouTube. I hope that this one amp was an anomaly. But, if it is not I am glad I know to just stick with something like Rockfords' Prime series or something from Pioneer for my low-budget system.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Well, Zapco is in trouble. Will be interesting to see how the 4ch fares. I’d take pause about accepting an amplifier given to him by Zapco for a retest.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

V8toilet said:


> Well, Zapco is in trouble. Will be interesting to see how the 4ch fares. I’d take pause about accepting an amplifier given to him by Zapco for a retest.


Yep and rightfully so. A lot of these "manufactures" could care less about their customers whatsoever. They innovate nothing using the same whored out boards (assembled by china) for the purpose of extracting every cent possible from the public. If the manufactures amp doesn't do whats advertised they are liars. Liars are glorified thieves and should be shunned.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

I don’t think I’m worried about the one Zapco is sending. I don’t think there is anything they can do to get 300 more watts out of it if it’s not already there.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Gump_Runner said:


> Yep and rightfully so. A lot of these "manufactures" could care less about their customers whatsoever. They innovate nothing using the same whored out boards (assembled by china) for the purpose of extracting every cent possible from the public. If the manufactures amp doesn't do whats advertised they are liars. Liars are glorified thieves and should be shunned.


Matt Hall tried to give me a hard time when I brought it up on Facebook. 
If these numbers are real that means that I should expect 300 less then rated from my 1k. 
He said it’s not a noticeable difference. Well Mister Hall that is not the point.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Red Saber said:


> I don’t think I’m worried about the one Zapco is sending. I don’t think there is anything they can do to get 300 more watts out of it if it’s not already there.


Not exactly. No 2 amps put out the same specs and the same components are a "crap shoot" at times. They can test 50 amps and send Ryan the best performer and that is with no "tweaking" whatsoever. 
"The cover up is always worse than the crime". 
I suspect we are in the cover up stage at this point.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Gump_Runner said:


> Not exactly. No 2 amps put out the same specs and the same components are a "crap shoot" at times. They can test 50 amps and send Ryan the best performer and that is with no "tweaking" whatsoever.
> "The cover up is always worse than the crime".
> I suspect we are in the cover up stage at this point.


the new distributor hasnt had product long enough to even have the work hours needed to test 50 amps. They have had product for about a week.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> the new distributor hasnt had product long enough to even have the work hours needed to test 50 amps. They have had product for about a week.


So your told. This is a "trust then verify" moment.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

I’m taking a wild guess on this. 
Amp repair places that handle volumes like this would have preassembled boards that would slide right in. 
What I’m confused about is where the boards come from. 
Built in china and shipped in or assembled at the repair facility.

If they are shipped in then they should be the same


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Now is where the conspiracy stuff can begin about the supplier sending a proper new unit...:laugh:

FWIW If I was in the states I'd happily send my brand new unused one to someone to dyno

What is also quite strange is that if they are all underperformers, they go to a great deal to hide that. Big fusing on the amps, big fusing called for in the manual, wiring, etc. IIRC my manual is wanting something like 120A on the inline for one of these. 
Most cheap units I've been researching will only have a small fuse inbuilt and be asking for much smaller inline fuses than would be required by the power numbers on the box. "2000w RMS!!! 25A fuse required", etc.

Still, need to see that 4 channel one, such a budget bargain unit that so many have...


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

All I know at this point is he needs to get on with it lol


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

well ive got the 204 st-d 4 channel and it pushes my 8s at 2 ohms and my horns at 8 ohms and they sound awesome, really hoping this was a fluke as i really would like to get the 1350 and at 300 dollars it s what i can afford at the moment


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> well ive got the 204 st-d 4 channel and it pushes my 8s at 2 ohms and my horns at 8 ohms and they sound awesome, really hoping this was a fluke as i really would like to get the 1350 and at 300 dollars it s what i can afford at the moment


You could always get a Rockford Fosgate Prime R1200-1D. That is under $300 and guaranteed to deliver its rated power and then some.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSNUujbayF4


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Maybe a tech on here can explain why it isn't doing rated at higher impedances, but close to dynamic at the lower. 


:snacks:


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Red Saber said:


> Matt Hall tried to give me a hard time when I brought it up on Facebook.
> If these numbers are real that means that I should expect 300 less then rated from my 1k.
> He said it’s not a noticeable difference. Well Mister Hall that is not the point.



I saw that conversation. To be honest that viewpoint is unacceptable and advocates dishonesty for the sake of retaining a reputation for certain brands while not giving the same pass to others.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Bayboy said:


> I saw that conversation. To be honest that viewpoint is unacceptable and advocates dishonesty for the sake of retaining a reputation for certain brands while not giving the same pass to others.


That’s the way I felt. 
If it was a lesser brand it would have been bashed 
Heck if it was anything else it would have been bashed.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

It ticks me off even more considering I swapped out nice amps for these. 
But truth be told I don’t see how I’m not getting rated out of the 1k. 
I lost 400 watts but I’m still getting plenty of output.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Red Saber said:


> That’s the way I felt.
> If it was a lesser brand it would have been bashed
> Heck if it was anything else it would have been bashed.


Being an amp guy (don't know the extent of his tech knowledge though he's part owner of one brand), you would think he'd give an unbiased thought as to why the amp either didn't make rated whether the company was clueless, lied, or if the amp might have been poorly repaired. That would have been more acceptable, but it is what it is as I find myself never surprised by some these days.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Red Saber said:


> It ticks me off even more considering I swapped out nice amps for these.
> But truth be told I don’t see how I’m not getting rated out of the 1k.
> I lost 400 watts but I’m still getting plenty of output.



Unless anyone clamps their setup during playback, I don't believe most are pulling the power they assume except maybe SPL guys. It doesn't take much to get to a certain level of loudness. After that, it takes a bunch to keep increasing.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Yeah. I did SPL for years. Got pretty far for what I had. I stopped when it was going to cost what I already had invested to gain a few DB. I said enough is enough. 
This side is way cheaper to reach a goal. And more enjoyable daily.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

This is disappointing to see... I wonder if this would be consistent through out the ST line?


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

Well my 2 cents, i just changed from a maxxsonic "2000" watt autotek to st4xii and the diffirence is night and day. And not even the sq version .I had to re-eq everything and the sound is so much cleaner and the bass is much more controllable annndddd i am runnin 4 massive mids 140rms and 2 vifa dx25tg09 100rms and i am getting just about same loudness as with the suppossed 2000 watt pos. It is much louder than i need it to be .So i know the 4 channel dyno is going to be alot better. Big d wiz has dynod zapco in the past and they did great. Someone said Ryan B. part owned a amp brand?? Anybody know which one?


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

DavidRam said:


> This is disappointing to see... I wonder if this would be consistent through out the ST line?


He’s trying to get the 4SQ done by Thursday. 

I guess we will see. I don’t care at this point. I got enough power for my needs, these will Be in the car for at least 3 years. That’s typically the amount of time before I get the urge to change everything.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Xx1988 said:


> Well my 2 cents, i just changed from a maxxsonic "2000" watt autotek to st4xii and the diffirence is night and day. And not even the sq version .I had to re-eq everything and the sound is so much cleaner and the bass is much more controllable annndddd i am runnin 4 massive mids 140rms and 2 vifa dx25tg09 100rms and i am getting just about same loudness as with the suppossed 2000 watt pos. It is much louder than i need it to be .So i know the 4 channel dyno is going to be alot better. Big d wiz has dynod zapco in the past and they did great. Someone said Ryan B. part owned a amp brand?? Anybody know which one?


I’d imagine you are getting more power now. 
I know he was testing some Wolfram prototype


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

The refurb 1350 was overrated by about 15%. Lets say all of the st's are overrated by about the same, i will still choose them over alot of other brand name amps just because of the quality of the sound they make. But in reality I beleive it is either that model amp that is overrated or simply just that one refurb. Im not worried about the dynos to come, i am actually.pretty excited ? i stand behind my zapco. It to me is as a favorite team or something along those lines lol


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Xx1988 said:


> Well my 2 cents, i just changed from a maxxsonic "2000" watt autotek to st4xii and the diffirence is night and day. And not even the sq version .I had to re-eq everything and the sound is so much cleaner and the bass is much more controllable annndddd i am runnin 4 massive mids 140rms and 2 vifa dx25tg09 100rms and i am getting just about same loudness as with the suppossed 2000 watt pos. It is much louder than i need it to be .So i know the 4 channel dyno is going to be alot better. Big d wiz has dynod zapco in the past and they did great. Someone said Ryan B. part owned a amp brand?? Anybody know which one?


Your "2 cents" will go much further on one of the many Zaps that will hitting the classifieds if the 4 channel tanks. AKA - Deflation on steroids.
Happy Shopping


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Red Saber said:


> He’s trying to get the 4SQ done by Thursday.
> 
> I guess we will see. I don’t care at this point. I got enough power for my needs, these will Be in the car for at least 3 years. That’s typically the amount of time before I get the urge to change everything.


Thanks. I look forward to seeing the results... (or not) Lol


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

lol come on guys you know better than that, it takes double the power just for a measly 3db unaudible diffirence. Where not talking crunch amp numbers, it did 200 watts less than the 1350. Who can tell the diffirence anyways. But that was funny anyways, me personally would buy a few more if they hit the classifieds for cheap lol


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Xx1988 said:


> lol come on guys you know better than that, it takes double the power just for a measly 3db unaudible diffirence. Where not talking crunch amp numbers, it did 200 watts less than the 1350. Who can tell the diffirence anyways. But that was funny anyways, me personally would buy a few more if they hit the classifieds for cheap lol


I'm sure if this wasn't dyno'd no one would realize it wasn't doing its advertised power, but once you know, you know, and it's kind of irritating, especially coming from a brand that "should" be above inflated specs.

If you paid for a 2 pound steak, but then later realized it was only 1.5 pounds, would you feel ripped off, or would it be ok since you were full after eating it?


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Xx1988 said:


> lol come on guys you know better than that, it takes double the power just for a measly 3db unaudible diffirence. Where not talking crunch amp numbers, it did 200 watts less than the 1350. Who can tell the diffirence anyways. But that was funny anyways, me personally would buy a few more if they hit the classifieds for cheap lol


Hell why advertise any numbers whatsoever? What manufacturers advertise matters. The whole point of the dyno's is to "hold their feet to the fire".
There has to be a standard.


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

Gump_Runner said:


> Xx1988 said:
> 
> 
> > lol come on guys you know better than that, it takes double the power just for a measly 3db unaudible diffirence. Where not talking crunch amp numbers, it did 200 watts less than the 1350. Who can tell the diffirence anyways. But that was funny anyways, me personally would buy a few more if they hit the classifieds for cheap lol
> ...


Yea you guys are 100% correct but i feel the problem is more this dyno embarassed zapco owners . We took a big L on this one straight to the gut.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Xx1988 said:


> Yea you guys are 100% correct but i feel the problem is more this dyno embarassed zapco owners . We took a big L on this one straight to the gut.


were not 100% sure yet though. Remember, this is a repaired unit that had all mosfets replaced (or so i hope). a new one was sent it for testing


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## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

Gump_Runner said:


> Hell why advertise any numbers whatsoever? What manufacturers advertise matters. The whole point of the dyno's is to "hold their feet to the fire".
> There has to be a standard.


I definitely agree with this point of view.... you see many standards in other electronic related products which if they were not met, a company would be scorned and possibly fined for not meeting the requirements. With car audio it seems as though standards are far too relaxed and the manufacturers are quite aware of this. So they can quote one thing such as wattage being done under certain conditions when in reality it will rarely ever be met if ever at all.

I truly wish the industry would enforce a rating system based on 12v or 12.5v versus the mixed up crap I see everywhere. One company will quote wattage done at 14.4v where another will quote 13.8v, then another will be 12.6v. Just come up with a damn standardized platform and call it the day.... Big numbers impress people is the mentality I guess they are counting on for the uneducated sheep....


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Xx1988 said:


> Yea you guys are 100% correct but i feel the problem is more this dyno embarassed zapco owners . We took a big L on this one straight to the gut.


May have embarrassed some but pissed off would prob be the consensus. Regardless of brand or product people don't like feeling like they were lied to. Hopefully the 4 channel will calm the waters.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Pissed is a much better word to use. 
Even more pissed considering I swapped nice amps for these. 
The 4 channel and the new 1350 will at least do rated and I expect a bit more.


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Red Saber said:


> Pissed is a much better word to use.
> 
> Even more pissed considering I swapped nice amps for these.
> 
> The 4 channel and the new 1350 will at least do rated and I expect a bit more.




Now this sucks. Damn man 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

MrGreen83 said:


> Now this sucks. Damn man
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They did accomplish one goal. No more noise floor at 0. It was there, nobody else could hear it but it was there.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

See you lurking Klifton, can you add anything? 
Lol my phone wanted to call you Klingon


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

sq2k1 said:


> Gump_Runner said:
> 
> 
> > Hell why advertise any numbers whatsoever? What manufacturers advertise matters. The whole point of the dyno's is to "hold their feet to the fire".
> ...


Foreal why is it so hard to get a company to be honest and have them all held to a single standard of honest advertising. If only politicians were into our hobby and stopped worrying about getting rich quick ?


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Red Saber said:


> Pissed is a much better word to use.
> Even more pissed considering I swapped nice amps for these.
> The 4 channel and the new 1350 will at least do rated and I expect a bit more.


I would have expected to see them just hit their targets, not really exceed them. The fact they are the budget line from them is what makes me feel that. The big stuff that is rated only slightly higher yet more than double the price? Yeah, you'd expect to see that exceed it nicely, along with other "SQ benefits".

But again, we shall see, just need some other legit dyno tests with new units. The fact that the distributor immediately is sending a proper new unit over is what makes me _feel_ that they will hit their target. If they knew they all didn't rate well, they may have tried to shy away a bit.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Xx1988 said:


> Foreal why is it so hard to get a company to be honest and have them all held to a single standard of honest advertising. If only politicians were into our hobby and stopped worrying about getting rich quick ?


The real winner in this debacle has been Sundown. With all the hyperventilating over Zapco everyone has forgot about that POS Sundown "3k" catastrophe. Isn't it interesting that the 200 buck Wolfram and 550 buck Orion have bludgeoned the much more "trusted-expensive" brands. 
Cheers to Wolfram & Sundown!


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

Gump_Runner said:


> Xx1988 said:
> 
> 
> > Foreal why is it so hard to get a company to be honest and have them all held to a single standard of honest advertising. If only politicians were into our hobby and stopped worrying about getting rich quick ?
> ...


Craaazyy how the orion just about doubled the sundowns numbers and was more efficient and the orion is about $200 cheaper. Its like these companies with big reputations are getting lazy and way too comfortable. They probably feel like they can get away with anything. Now the sundown did its numbers and more but the orion really is a much better buy


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Minibull said:


> I would have expected to see them just hit their targets, not really exceed them. The fact they are the budget line from them is what makes me feel that. The big stuff that is rated only slightly higher yet more than double the price? Yeah, you'd expect to see that exceed it nicely, along with other "SQ benefits".
> 
> But again, we shall see, just need some other legit dyno tests with new units. The fact that the distributor immediately is sending a proper new unit over is what makes me _feel_ that they will hit their target. If they knew they all didn't rate well, they may have tried to shy away a bit.


Big D dynoed one of the 150x4s. It did a hair over rated. 
Even the Rockford primes are a bit underrated


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

That efficiency makes me cringe. 
https://youtu.be/UU_Way9WkSs


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

Hard to get real good efficiency out of a powerfull ab amp but yea it would so much better if they evolutionized class ab amps to be more efficient ,so much power going to waste just basically becoming vapor and heat


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Red Saber said:


> That efficiency makes me cringe.
> https://youtu.be/UU_Way9WkSs


thats actually damn good for a class AB.. i was expecting mid 40's tbh


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

I’m just used to seeing class D amps on the dyno.


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## mzmtg (Dec 8, 2009)

sq2k1 said:


> I truly wish the industry would enforce a rating system based on 12v or 12.5v versus the mixed up crap I see everywhere.


That's what the CEA-2006 testing standard was supposed to accomplish.



> Manufacturers are required to:
> 
> Express output power as watts RMS
> Measure with 14.4V DC supply
> ...


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Yep. But what did it turn into. 
They found out they can hit a 4ohm rating but not even get close to the lower loads.


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## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

mzmtg said:


> That's what the CEA-2006 testing standard was supposed to accomplish.



I am aware of the CEA standard but I honestly believe 14.4v is too high a mark for real world applications as compared to the voltage most people truly see while driving and under load. Base the measurements on 12-12.5v as a car needs this to operate under minimal conditions normally.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Voltage don’t bother me. It’s the load that does. It should be tested at every rated load.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Anyone know when Ryan is getting the 4 channel to test?


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

He said Thursday. I told he he was killing me. I’m trying to not rip them out of the car


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Red Saber said:


> He said Thursday. I told he he was killing me. I’m trying to not rip them out of the car


I'm sure it is. I prob would have already snatched those things out and threw em on the classifieds.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

My back is hurting to bad after getting them in. Considering I need a fan now to keep the 4 from going thermal it’s tempting. I did make a profit off the swap, key word is did. 
Lol the inputs are different then the DD and I was to sore to trace the speaker wire so I took a guess.. tweeter went pop but I did end up getting better tweeters, but they have to be on axis so that means fab work. But they did fix my far left dip. Luckily I didn’t have to retune anything because I can’t get the MS-8 display to work anymore.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

If they prove to be unsatisfactory, dumping them will only wind up in major loss considering now that this is out in the open. Not many are going to pay what they would normally be worth used so unless there's some OCD involved and you are ready to take a serious hit, is it really going to be worth the sacrifice if they still sound good?


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Not to side track the thread but quick question. How do you calculate/approximate the output of 1.33/3 ohm from a amp?


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Bayboy said:


> If they prove to be unsatisfactory, dumping them will only wind up in major loss considering now that this is out in the open. Not many are going to pay what they would normally be worth used so unless there's some OCD involved and you are ready to take a serious hit, is it really going to be worth the sacrifice if they still sound good?


If they dump I’ll grab another and bridge them lol. 
I’m pretty sure mine will stay in at this point. Just have to get it cooled down. 
I’m also pretty sure the non referbs will do rated 
I lost 2/3 of my power and still get plenty of output from the 4 and 1k.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Ryan just sent me this. 
Can anyone tag Klif? 
I think shenanigans are happening at Zapco... They sent me a 1350 on Monday... Never told me they did, but I have Fed Ex and UPS accounts that tell me whenever something is shipped to me. Last night after it reached the local distro center, hybrid tech called and had the package rerouted back to them... FedEx verified this to me this morning when I got a alert saying I refused delivery.

This morning I get a email from the president of Zapco in Italy... Wanting to send me a amp direct from Italy for me to test... something fishy is going on...


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Red Saber said:


> Ryan just sent me this.
> Can anyone tag Klif?
> I think shenanigans are happening at Zapco... They sent me a 1350 on Monday... Never told me they did, but I have Fed Ex and UPS accounts that tell me whenever something is shipped to me. Last night after it reached the local distro center, hybrid tech called and had the package rerouted back to them... FedEx verified this to me this morning when I got a alert saying I refused delivery.
> 
> This morning I get a email from the president of Zapco in Italy... Wanting to send me a amp direct from Italy for me to test... something fishy is going on...


That ship sailed a week ago. **** Zapco


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

We need a rep to clear this up. 
Nick can you get ahold of someone?


----------



## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Red Saber said:


> Ryan just sent me this.
> Can anyone tag Klif?
> I think shenanigans are happening at Zapco... They sent me a 1350 on Monday... Never told me they did, but I have Fed Ex and UPS accounts that tell me whenever something is shipped to me. Last night after it reached the local distro center, hybrid tech called and had the package rerouted back to them... FedEx verified this to me this morning when I got a alert saying I refused delivery.
> 
> This morning I get a email from the president of Zapco in Italy... Wanting to send me a amp direct from Italy for me to test... something fishy is going on...


Ffs, OK now the conspiracy stuff can start, if this is true. We need to see the other units he already had get tested.

Anyone else willing to send in a new unit without Zapco interfering?


----------



## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Gump_Runner said:


> Not exactly. No 2 amps put out the same specs and the same components are a "crap shoot" at times. They can test 50 amps and send Ryan the best performer and that is with no "tweaking" whatsoever.
> "The cover up is always worse than the crime".
> I suspect we are in the cover up stage at this point.


I'm such a Prophet.


----------



## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Minibull said:


> Ffs, OK now the conspiracy stuff can start, if this is true. We need to see the other units he already had get tested.
> 
> Anyone else willing to send in a new unit without Zapco interfering?


He said he will send me the email when he gets to a PC. I’m just going to ask him to make an account here


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Bayboy said:


> If they prove to be unsatisfactory, dumping them will only wind up in major loss considering now that this is out in the open. Not many are going to pay what they would normally be worth used so unless there's some OCD involved and you are ready to take a serious hit, is it really going to be worth the sacrifice if they still sound good?


You're 100% right about forum sales. I'd check the resale value on eBay and maybe chuck them there if I was really itching to get rid of them.


----------



## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Red Saber said:


> Ryan just sent me this.
> Can anyone tag Klif?
> I think shenanigans are happening at Zapco... They sent me a 1350 on Monday... Never told me they did, but I have Fed Ex and UPS accounts that tell me whenever something is shipped to me. Last night after it reached the local distro center, hybrid tech called and had the package rerouted back to them... FedEx verified this to me this morning when I got a alert saying I refused delivery.
> 
> This morning I get a email from the president of Zapco in Italy... Wanting to send me a amp direct from Italy for me to test... something fishy is going on...


If this is exactly what it looks like then RIP Zapco.

He definitely needs to test a "normal" Zapco 1350 from the wild and the Zapco that was sent after the package intercept.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Ryan should be careful, they’ll come after him with a lawsuit claiming damages and can wait up to three years to do it.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

V8toilet said:


> Ryan should be careful, they’ll come after him with a lawsuit claiming damages and can wait up to three years to do it.


Uh, don't bring FUD here. Lawsuit based upon what exactly? 

This is exactly what the "Customer Review Fairness Act of 2016" was designed to protect. People have a right to post accurate negative reviews. The burden of proof of libel damages will be on Zapco, and the Streisand effect from such predatory and frivolous litigation will only serve to harm Zapco more than help.


----------



## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

We will see the 4SQ soon. It will hopefully ease tensions in one aspect. 
I’m still confident it will at least do rated.


----------



## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

V8toilet said:


> Ryan should be careful, they’ll come after him with a lawsuit claiming damages and can wait up to three years to do it.


OMFG


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Damn all of that nonsense. Why not test what's already in the field and from a consumer that has bought a legitimate authorized amp??? That's who really wants to know... the people that's using them already!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Red Saber said:


> We will see the 4SQ soon. It will hopefully ease tensions in one aspect.
> I’m still confident it will at least do rated.


Is this the one which was bought from the open market, or the one which was intercepted and replaced by Zapco HQ?


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## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

:lurk: This is getting more interesting day by day....next thing you know they will ask him to go to the factory to watch them construct it before testing it..... :huh2:


----------



## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

GreatLaBroski said:


> Is this the one which was bought from the open market, or the one which was intercepted and replaced by Zapco HQ?


Straight from amazon


----------



## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Red Saber said:


> GreatLaBroski said:
> 
> 
> > Is this the one which was bought from the open market, or the one which was intercepted and replaced by Zapco HQ?
> ...


Nice


----------



## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

Now I am wondering if my Z-2KD does legit power or not....I know the z150.4lx was tested and did rated...but it is a class a/b amp where the Z-2KD is class d...... So I will go with the assumption that is does at least rated based on the series...


----------



## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I have an ST-1500XM that I'm not using. How solid of a dude is this guy doing the testing? I might be willing to send it off for testing.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Regardless of the results (of whatever amp - from whichever source) it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of how this has played out. If Zap was worth a damn they would have addressed the issue (via the public forum of their choosing) rather than devote their resources to ****ing around with whatever amp they sent Ryan. For me, their response (and/or lack of) guaranteed my never purchasing any of their products.


----------



## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

LumbermanSVO said:


> I have an ST-1500XM that I'm not using. How solid of a dude is this guy doing the testing? I might be willing to send it off for testing.


Others have sent stuff to him without issues. 
Y’all would have to work that out. I know we would all be grateful.


----------



## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Gump_Runner said:


> Regardless of the results (of whatever amp - from whichever source) it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of how this has played out. If Zap was worth a damn they would have addressed the issue (via the public forum of their choosing) rather than devote their resources to ****ing around with whatever amp they sent Ryan. For me, their response (and/or lack of) guaranteed my never purchasing any of their products.


Ease up mate, while their actions aren't good at all especially reversal of shipping, if the other amps all put out rated, then we can at least know the refurb unit was the dud here. I think that's the main thing, still waiting on the other brand new units to be tested to finalise where this is going.

I.e if they all fail, then Zapco can be relegated to the ****heap
Or they pass and while the company actions suck in this debacle, at least the product is as it says


----------



## Klifton Keplinger (Apr 6, 2012)

Hi,

Some of you already know me, as I see I've been called upon a couple of times previously in this thread. 

Unfortunately, I couldn't say anything until now due to the delicate nature of the business. 

For full disclosure, I'm Vice President of Aurigin Inc., the incoming distributor of Zapco in the USA. This has not been publicly announced yet, but at least as of right now, going forward, I can speak of it.

My personal experience with Zapco goes back to the 90s, and I was on Team Zapco with the Sounds Impossible guys in the early 00s. I received — directly off the Zapco line in Modesto — the last Z-series amplifier produced there, and I've used at least one of every Studio, Z-series, and C2K amplifiers at one point or another (except the C2K-4KW). I could go on, but suffice to say, my passion for Zapco runs deep.

When the opportunity arose to work with Zapco again, of course, we worked to make it happen. The overall symbiosis of what we are all doing works together nicely, and though there're *always* growing pains and a learning curve, the overall fitment makes a ton of sense in the long run.

We haven't even officially, publicly, announced yet, so the timing of this dyno test made it difficult to respond. And of course, my reaction was similar to many of you, let down by what seems to be a product that does not exceed expectations, as I think we all naturally expect anything with the Zapco label to do.

Now, I love music, I love competition, I love car audio, and I work very hard to do my roles in that to the best of my ability. I am not, however, a technician. Nor do I claim any significant knowledge regarding how amplifiers are tested, under what conditions, or what all that means. If it were up to me personally (it's not, apparently), there'd be no power ratings on anything. But, I get it. 

So, I'm not going to discuss the details of the test nor the amplifier in question, or anything. I think there's plenty to pound out around that. Also, I know for years, the lower end amplifiers have fluctuated in power (sometimes dramatically) from what it says on the box. I think it's a good thing that tests like these are coming to light because they will push the industry to get better. I'm certainly not scared of that. The industry improving is a good thing, as long as we work to build it together. 

Of course, as I said, we *all* hold Zapco to a higher standard, as it should be. And, we still need to come to a resolve to find out what's happening here. However, make no mistake, that we will make sure that we, collectively, hold everyone to a higher standard. I couldn't say that about Zapco before now, but I can, unequivocally, say it now.

Now, about this business of the boomerang amplifier. I got a bit carried away in my ambition when all this broke out on YouTube Saturday and made a decision Saturday evening to request an amplifier be sent to the YouTube reviewer (Ryan Blankenship) to help determine what the issue is. Unfortunately, the distributorship change hadn't happened yet, and this caused a bit of a ruckus, and I was a bit tongue-tied due to the timing of everything, so I had the amplifier returned and asked the President of Apex Group (who owns Zapco) to contact the YouTube reviewer directly and handle sending an amp for them to test, since this was indeed a bit out of our jurisdiction at the time (which he did). — A colossal waste of efficiency? Yes. But, I'll take total blame for that mistake. The intent was pure, the execution failed. But, we're beyond the tongue-tied part, so we can at least discuss it now. I'm nearly always available, and as you see, I have no problem using my real name here.  My email is: klifton at aurigin.us

I understand that none of this is an absolute resolve, as I have no idea what the problem is yet, or if there is a problem. However, I can say that we won't let it go without resolve, and we'll all be better for it as a result.


----------



## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Thanks bud. 
Would you happen to know about the refreb process? Like where they recycling returned boards? Or fresh from a box.


----------



## Klifton Keplinger (Apr 6, 2012)

Red Saber said:


> Thanks bud.
> Would you happen to know about the refreb process? Like where they recycling returned boards? Or fresh from a box.


I'm not aware of any refurb process at all on these amplifiers, and the amp in question, in the test, is of considerable confusion to everyone. What it is, how it was fixed, by whom, etc., isn't known at this time.

I can say, unequivocally, that an amplifier should not be received by a user in those conditions, under any circumstances, unless the buyer is fully aware of what they're receiving.

Things happen, as I can surely attest to, and I am going to do what nobody should, and assume, that the amplifier was sent by a well-meaning individual who was trying to fulfill the needs of the customer, and during the process, the T's didn't get crossed in this instance.


----------



## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> Almost 4000. But then you also need a massive power supply, and batteries. easily over 5000 dollar investment.


My investment in my Setup, including wiring is currently sitting at $8400 but who is counting...


----------



## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Red Saber said:


> He’s trying to get the 4SQ done by Thursday.
> 
> I guess we will see. I don’t care at this point. I got enough power for my needs, these will Be in the car for at least 3 years. That’s typically the amount of time before I get the urge to change everything.



I am going to try.... Atleast it's a small one I can run on PSU's instead of batteries... my battery bank was dropping to much on the 1350 test and it turns out I had 3 batteries that were bad... That's what I get for buying 3 used batteries... So I bought 3 new batteries I have to get wired into the battery bank...


----------



## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

bigblank69 said:


> My investment in my Setup, including wiring is currently sitting at $8400 but who is counting...


It’s doing all of the community a great service. Without folks doing this most of us would still be in the dark.


----------



## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Gump_Runner said:


> Anyone know when Ryan is getting the 4 channel to test?


I have 2 of them.. showed them in my video a ST64DBT and the ST-4X SQ


----------



## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

So Klifton, does this mean that atrendusa will no longer be carrying zapco and also will customer service become a more viable thing with your company coming into play as the distributors?


----------



## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Klifton Keplinger said:


> my reaction was similar to many of you, let down by what seems to be a product that does not exceed expectations, as I think we all naturally expect anything with the Zapco label to do.


Come now, let's call a spade a spade, it failed to meet the advertised power output.



Klifton Keplinger said:


> If it were up to me personally (it's not, apparently), there'd be no power ratings on anything. But, I get it.






Klifton Keplinger said:


> Now, about this business of the boomerang amplifier. I got a bit carried away in my ambition when all this broke out on YouTube Saturday and made a decision Saturday evening to request an amplifier be sent to the YouTube reviewer (Ryan Blankenship) to help determine what the issue is. Unfortunately, the distributorship change hadn't happened yet, and this caused a bit of a ruckus, and I was a bit tongue-tied due to the timing of everything, so I had the amplifier returned and asked the President of Apex Group (who owns Zapco) to contact the YouTube reviewer directly and handle sending an amp for them to test, since this was indeed a bit out of our jurisdiction at the time (which he did). — A colossal waste of efficiency? Yes. But, I'll take total blame for that mistake. The intent was pure, the execution failed.


So between the date that it was shipped (Monday), and today (Wednesday) you went through the process of not being the distributor to being a distributor? That 2-day difference was what made you have to recall the package and have a new one be shipped from overseas at Zapco's HQ??

I may be coming across as combative, and I apologize if that's the case. I appreciate that you're making an investment in Zapco and recognize the potential for this situation to damage the brand equity of Zapco. This would be a bad situation for you and for Zapco. 

With that said, an alternative explanation is that Zapco HQ is sending a pre-tested unit to the reviewer which will meet or exceed advertised power figures. A unit which is not representative of what is coming through standard distribution channels. That would be dishonest. This is extremely common and many manufacturers in various industries are guilty of this. This is why many reviewers will only test items purchased through the typical distribution chain.

As I'm sure you and Zapco HQ realize, this is going to be tested. I'm sure a store-bought unit will be tested against the Zapco HQ unit and if there's a big disparity, it's going to look pretty bad. If they both test the same, whether below rated-power or above, then that at least indicates integrity at Zapco. I know for me will serve to preserve the perception of the Zapco brand. 

If not, then yikes.


----------



## Klifton Keplinger (Apr 6, 2012)

sq2k1 said:


> So Klifton, does this mean that atrendusa will no longer be carrying zapco and also will customer service become a more viable thing with your company coming into play as the distributors?


As of now, Aurigin, Inc is the exclusive Master Distributor of Zapco products in the U.S., and customer service and tech support are, and always have been, extremely important to us.


----------



## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Klifton Keplinger said:


> Hi,
> 
> Some of you already know me, as I see I've been called upon a couple of times previously in this thread.
> 
> ...


Sounds perfectly reasonable to me, I wish someone gave me a heads up on it... I work in the corporate world and very aware of contractual issues and obligations that can come up. 

As for my reaction, one of the things I worry most about accepting a amp from a manufacturer is getting a "Ringer" sent to me. The two times I have accepted a amp from a MFR, I've gotten to know the operation of the company and discovered... they don't have the ability/technical expertise to send a ringer  Once I got the notice from FedEx at about the same time as I was reading the email from Enzo, my skeptic bell was ringing very loudly. I'm sure no one thought I had visibility of the package and was just trying to avoid any contractual breaches that may occur during the transition period from the old distributor and the new one. 


Sorry for ringing the alarm bell. Hopefully the new amp comes and it performs as expected.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

bigblank69 said:


> My investment in my Setup, including wiring is currently sitting at $8400 but who is counting...


For that kind of money if you have 3 phase power available you could eliminate the batteries altogether.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sorensen-DCR16-625T-5M-9A-DC-Power-Supply-0-16V-625A/382368691811?epid=14017915926&hash=item5906f33663:g:74MAAOSwIrVbNUFi


----------



## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

ca90ss said:


> For that kind of money if you have 3 phase power available you could eliminate the batteries altogether.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sorensen-DCR16-625T-5M-9A-DC-Power-Supply-0-16V-625A/382368691811?epid=14017915926&hash=item5906f33663:g:74MAAOSwIrVbNUFi


An alternative would be to strap a bunch of these types of server PSUs together: https://www.parallelminer.com/product/hp-1200w-platinum-power-supply-110-240v-gpu-mining-psu/

But still you'd need some powerful breakers, like an EV quick-charger circuit and a few batteries to help with the sudden load spikes.


----------



## JamesRC (Sep 18, 2017)

GreatLaBroski said:


> So between the date that it was shipped (Monday), and today (Wednesday) you went through the process of not being the distributor to being a distributor? That 2-day difference was what made you have to recall the package and have a new one be shipped from overseas at Zapco's HQ??


Contractual duties and powers are critical and complex at the corporate level. It's perfectly plausible that he didn't have the authority to send something at one point in the week and did at another. It could be as simple as it not being an Aurigin asset at the point that it was shipped. That makes much more sense to me and seems much more realistic than what would be required from a manufacturing standpoint to send out a specially engineered product.


----------



## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

JamesRC said:


> Contractual duties and powers are critical and complex at the corporate level. It's perfectly plausible that he didn't have the authority to send something at one point in the week and did at another. It could be as simple as it not being an Aurigin asset at the point that it was shipped. As an attorney, that makes much more sense to me and seems much more realistic than what would be required from a manufacturing standpoint to send out a specially engineered product.


I am very well aware of how that stuff works, and openly acknowledge this is possible. I'm not calling anyone a liar. I appreciate him coming into the forums to post. 

I'm also going to be the one to point out how this looks from an alternative perspective. To reiterate the point: If the two amps perform the same (Zapco HQ and store-bought) then I'm happy whether or not they meet advertised power. I like integrity in the brands I buy from. 

They can easily improve their product line, but they can't easily fix dishonest operating practices, because that comes from the people who make up management. That's much harder to change.


----------



## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

I have a couple of PSU's already, I run them on tests sub 1200W solo... As for the big power supply listed, going any bigger than what I have would require further connections to the breaker panel. Electricians are not cheap, and the connections are permanent. I move fairly often for work, and a 625 amp variable DC power supply in my basement will add no value.... unless BigDWiz wanted to move to the Chicago area...


----------



## 04quadcab (Dec 31, 2017)

Who here can order up two of these amps and have them shipped to Mr. Blankenship and BigD?

Do we need to crowd source the cash? 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

GreatLaBroski said:


> An alternative would be to strap a bunch of these types of server PSUs together: https://www.parallelminer.com/product/hp-1200w-platinum-power-supply-110-240v-gpu-mining-psu/
> 
> But still you'd need some powerful breakers, like an EV quick-charger circuit and a few batteries to help with the sudden load spikes.


The problem with PC power supplies is they're only 12v. Some can be modified for more but not a lot can do 14.4v. The power isn't too hard, when I need to run multiple supplies I just use extension cords and run them to outlets that are on different breakers. That works up until you reach the limit of the main breaker on the panel but that's not generally an issue until you get to amps over 5kw or so.


----------



## JamesRC (Sep 18, 2017)

GreatLaBroski said:


> I am very well aware of how that stuff works, and openly acknowledge this is possible. I'm not calling anyone a liar. I appreciate him coming into the forums to post.
> 
> I'm also going to be the one to point out how this looks from an alternative perspective. To reiterate the point: If the two amps perform the same (Zapco HQ and store-bought) then I'm happy whether or not they meet advertised power. I like integrity in the brands I buy from.
> 
> They can easily improve their product line, but they can't easily fix dishonest operating practices, because that comes from the people who make up management. That's much harder to change.


When I was out walking the dog I started wondering how Ryan got the amp he tested. Ryan tested a refurbed amp that didn't meet advertised specs, and Klif said Zapco doesn't do refurbs. Is it possible that some guy out there tried repairing an amp then sold it?


----------



## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

bigblank69 said:


> My investment in my Setup, including wiring is currently sitting at $8400 but who is counting...


Speaking of your investment, I would contact XS about "sponsoring" some aspect of your video's. Thats the least they could do for the "free" advertising you give them.


----------



## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

ca90ss said:


> The problem with PC power supplies is they're only 12v. Some can be modified for more but not a lot can do 14.4v. The power isn't too hard, when I need to run multiple supplies I just use extension cords and run them to outlets that are on different breakers. That works up until you reach the limit of the main breaker on the panel but that's not generally an issue until you get to amps over 5kw or so.


Ah, true true.


----------



## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

Finally we get the people "that matter" in here join this convo. We are all hoping this gets resolved soon, especially me that have money invested. I really enjoy my zapco products but i also like to have pride in my belongings that i work so hard to adquire. So with that said im rooting team zapco, but not everything that shines is gold. There is no love without hate.


----------



## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

JamesRC said:


> GreatLaBroski said:
> 
> 
> > I am very well aware of how that stuff works, and openly acknowledge this is possible. I'm not calling anyone a liar. I appreciate him coming into the forums to post.
> ...


It seems like we will never know. Smh


----------



## Klifton Keplinger (Apr 6, 2012)

GreatLaBroski said:


> Come now, let's call a spade a spade, it failed to meet the advertised power output.


Why it failed and under what circumstances is what we do not know for fact at this time.



GreatLaBroski said:


>


Again, I get it. However, I have at least one gray hair for every time I've been asked how many watts a 6.5-inch woofer is, or if it's OK to put a 100 watt per channel amplifier on tweeters.  That's all, nothing more. I'm not asking power ratings be removed!  




GreatLaBroski said:


> So between the date that it was shipped (Monday), and today (Wednesday) you went through the process of not being the distributor to being a distributor? That 2-day difference was what made you have to recall the package and have a new one be shipped from overseas at Zapco's HQ??.


Essentially, yes. It's a whirlwind of a timeline as happens sometimes in these cases, and the timing of everything couldn't have been more of a perfect storm, else I would have been in here day one. It wasn't until today that things fell into place and finalized. And as of Monday/Tuesday, the only one who could say anything for sure as to what was happening was the President of Zapco, who reached out to Ryan directly in an attempt to explain the situation.



GreatLaBroski said:


> I may be coming across as combative, and I apologize if that's the case. I appreciate that you're making an investment in Zapco and recognize the potential for this situation to damage the brand equity of Zapco. This would be a bad situation for you and for Zapco.
> 
> With that said, an alternative explanation is that Zapco HQ is sending a pre-tested unit to the reviewer which will meet or exceed advertised power figures. A unit which is not representative of what is coming through standard distribution channels. That would be dishonest. This is extremely common and many manufacturers in various industries are guilty of this. This is why many reviewers will only test items purchased through the typical distribution chain.
> 
> ...


I understand what you're saying. I think everyone involved is honestly looking for answers and an explanation. At very least to know what the baseline is for the measurements, and what is an acceptable deviation. The buck doesn't stop here, on this individual test alone, for us. So whether this individual amp or model performs or not, for us, is a data point, but of more importance, is knowing that all amplifiers being purchased by consumers perform to a standard, as expected upon arrival. 

This is something the industry has struggled with for years, it's not a new problem. And there'll naturally be much arguing over the validity of one test over another, with what equipment, proper setup, voltage stability, etc. Again, I'm not a technician, we have to rely on the experts for that. What I do know, at this point, from my position, and in order to conclusively know what actions to take, it's going to require more data points and answers.


----------



## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

If I would have lit a joint the size of a baseball bat and sat down to imagine this situation getting any more absurd, I couldn't have, until now.
Not withstanding that endless word salad - nonsense of a response, Zapco sends their "incoming distributor" out to clean up a mess he had nothing to with, nor to this day, has any control of. Sounds like their amp failing to do whats written on the box is the least of their issues.


----------



## 12v Electronics (Jun 1, 2008)

bigblank69 said:


> I am going to try.... Atleast it's a small one I can run on PSU's instead of batteries... my battery bank was dropping to much on the 1350 test and it turns out I had 3 batteries that were bad... That's what I get for buying 3 used batteries... So I bought 3 new batteries I have to get wired into the battery bank...


If you need help I'm in Crystal Lake a few miles from you. I have a few 6 volt golf cart batteries on hand for amp testing as well as multiple 100 amp power supplies feeding them


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

12v Electronics said:


> bigblank69 said:
> 
> 
> > I am going to try.... Atleast it's a small one I can run on PSU's instead of batteries... my battery bank was dropping to much on the 1350 test and it turns out I had 3 batteries that were bad... That's what I get for buying 3 used batteries... So I bought 3 new batteries I have to get wired into the battery bank...
> ...


Not all heros wear capes ?

You’re a good dude. The both of you.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Red Saber said:


> Did anyone see Big D’s “The One” dyno?
> It was a $6000 bust. I knew those didn’t make rated a long time ago.


Saw that some time ago. Can't remember what voltages the amp was rated at (16?), but it did miss the mark at a couple of points. Meh. I was more impressed with the GTI6000 amp as usual with JBL/Harman products. One company that has constantly impressed with amp numbers.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

I'm not sure if there has been a weirder thread on this forum... I'm holding my breath (and my current build) for the 4 channel test outcome.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Lol if the 4 channel flops I will just hide them.


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

Red Saber said:


> Lol if the 4 channel flops I will just hide them.


Lol me too. It sounds alot better than my last amp and with 1/4 of advertised power, but they still better figure this all out


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Red Saber said:


> Lol if the 4 channel flops I will just hide them.





Xx1988 said:


> Lol me too. It sounds alot better than my last amp and with 1/4 of advertised power, but they still better figure this all out


Maybe Orion will sell us logos to glue over our Zapco logos so we aren't ashamed... because our peers would mock us, which would cause low self esteem, that could lead to drug and alcohol abuse, etc.. Lmao


Does this look ok?!?!


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

DavidRam said:


> Maybe Orion will sell us logos to glue over our Zapco logos so we aren't ashamed... because our peers would mock us, which would cause low self esteem, that could lead to drug and alcohol abuse, etc.. Lmao
> 
> 
> Does this look ok?!?!


If you can't score Orion stickers another option is NVX decals.


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

Gump_Runner said:


> DavidRam said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe Orion will sell us logos to glue over our Zapco logos so we aren't ashamed... because our peers would mock us, which would cause low self esteem, that could lead to drug and alcohol abuse, etc.. Lmao
> ...


Lol . Contact masconi for some stickers


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

It will be fine. I think. The referb was just a bust.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

When is Ryan posting the "updated" dyno?


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

Interested to see this result, As I am running both the 1000, and the 4SQ.
Regardless of outcome, I'm keeping them. They sound great, and have plenty of power for me, But one still cant help but feeling slightly Duped.... I'm betting the refurb was a bust as well, But time will tell..............


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## JamesRC (Sep 18, 2017)

I think we should presume the refurb was a bust since Zapco evidently doesn't refurbish.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

I think we should presume nothing and wait for more testing to confirm or disprove the refurb unit’s results.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

JamesRC said:


> I think we should presume the refurb was a bust since Zapco evidently doesn't refurbish.


That is odd and I feel needs more explanation.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

If Zapco doesn't refurb, then what do they do with warranty claims? Do they just send out new amps and trash the broken one? Ryan stated in the video that it looked like it might have been a complete board replacement. If it was a board replacement, then how did the repair shop get a hold of a new board? It clearly states in Zapco's warranty return that they do "repair" amps so that leaves a slightly gray area in that statement of not doing refurbs. Perhaps not sell... but even that seems weird since many reputable companies sell refurbs or B stock though not necessarily through the same venue.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Bayboy said:


> If Zapco doesn't refurb, then what do they do with warranty claims?


This is a great point. They have to do something with warranty claims. If they don’t repair then they must do a new board replacement and trash the old board. Or they send a whole new packaged amp out and throw everything from the old one in the dumpster, but that’s extremely hard to believe.

I’ve been to old school US Amps and Planet Audio in person and seen their amp repair “production line” if you want to call them that. Most businesses try to be efficient. I doubt they’re just throwing out warranty returns.

If so, that’s a lot of e-waste. And in the best interest of the environment, I officially accept the burden of taking the pallets upon pallets of their discarded, almost working Zapco amps off their hands. For a small new mosfe... erm.. e-waste fee of course.


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## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

I had an issue with a zapco amp at one point in time and they completely replaced the amp with a new one. Not saying this is what is done on each claim, but maybe it can shed some light nonetheless.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

GreatLaBroski said:


> This is a great point. They have to do something with warranty claims. If they don’t repair then they must do a new board replacement and trash the old board. Or they send a whole new packaged amp out and throw everything from the old one in the dumpster, but that’s extremely hard to believe.
> 
> I’ve been to old school US Amps and Planet Audio in person and seen their amp repair “production line” if you want to call them that. Most businesses try to be efficient. I doubt they’re just throwing out warranty returns.
> 
> If so, that’s a lot of e-waste. And in the best interest of the environment, I officially accept the burden of taking the pallets upon pallets of their discarded, almost working Zapco amps off their hands. For a small new mosfe... erm.. e-waste fee of course. ?



The statement of Zapco actually not doing the work could hold true if they don't actually do the repairs for this region. Atrend was the authorized distributor and repair center so if bought from them it still should be legit. If they did a shoddy repair, then that's one thing. Were they not supposed to sell refurbs.. that's another. All sorts of conspiracies flying about, but claiming that the old distributor purposely did a botched repair or selling less than par gear, as someone claimed, is just as bad as some say others are saying Zapco purposely lied on the ratings. 

Should be easy to look in the amp and see if the wrong parts were used or something I would think, but I'm not a tech. Testing a new amp should still be from the same batch of amps as already in consumers' cars though.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

^^^ agreed.

I’m still not understanding how a correct repair is going to lower power output to be honest. Maybe someone with amplifier design experience can chime in here.

In my basic understanding, that would only be achievable by changing the dc voltage in the fixed amplitude square waves on the power supply side of the amplifier. This is not easy to do, and is why you don’t see people “boosting their wattage” by swapping out a part or two.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> If Zapco doesn't refurb, then what do they do with warranty claims? Do they just send out new amps and trash the broken one? Ryan stated in the video that it looked like it might have been a complete board replacement. If it was a board replacement, then how did the repair shop get a hold of a new board? It clearly states in Zapco's warranty return that they do "repair" amps so that leaves a slightly gray area in that statement of not doing refurbs. Perhaps not sell... but even that seems weird since many reputable companies sell refurbs or B stock though not necessarily through the same venue.


This is me generalizing and nay or may not be true for zapco..

Most car audio brands dont repair or refurbish, especially on the cheaper gear. There is only money to be lost in that ordeal. They just replace the product. Even with more expensive gear this is usually the case. What happens to it, idk. Some brands dont even require you to send it back. They just have you do a field destruct. Aka, break it to the point where it's just garbage and toss it. Its money lost on their part, but that's just part of the business 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Gump_Runner said:


> When is Ryan posting the "updated" dyno?


Whenever I get the amp....


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## JamesRC (Sep 18, 2017)

bigblank69 said:


> Whenever I get the amp....


Ryan, do you mind saying where you go the original amp?


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## JamesRC (Sep 18, 2017)

Bayboy said:


> If Zapco doesn't refurb, then what do they do with warranty claims? Do they just send out new amps and trash the broken one? Ryan stated in the video that it looked like it might have been a complete board replacement. If it was a board replacement, then how did the repair shop get a hold of a new board? It clearly states in Zapco's warranty return that they do "repair" amps so that leaves a slightly gray area in that statement of not doing refurbs. Perhaps not sell... but even that seems weird since many reputable companies sell refurbs or B stock though not necessarily through the same venue.


That's a great question. Nick, thanks for the answer. I wonder if Zapco follows that practice?


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

JamesRC said:


> Ryan, do you mind saying where you go the original amp?


I assume you meant to say where I got the original amp from. I have a wholesale account with Ramko Dsitribution and they carry Zapco. When you order a Zapco thru them the item drop ships from Atrend. When I ordered the ST-1350XMII it was supposed to be brand new, but Ramko called me and said Atrend was sold out (Which makes since now with the impending switch in distributors), but they had a ST-1350XMII Refurb they could offer me for a $20 discount. Seeing as I have had luck with some Refurbs, I accepted. What you saw in the video is how it came.

As for the other amps I have. The ST-64D.BT came from Ranko, though they had that one in stock and is brand new. 

The ST-4X SQ came from Woofers Etc..


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

12v Electronics said:


> If you need help I'm in Crystal Lake a few miles from you. I have a few 6 volt golf cart batteries on hand for amp testing as well as multiple 100 amp power supplies feeding them


No kidding, where in Crytal Lake are you located? 

I don't need anymore batteries unless I start testing some 10K amps, but I appreciate the offer. If you end up carrying Zapco amps I can show you the refurb I got...


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Open discussion as always. 
What’s everyone doing if the 4SQ flops? 
Personally I don’t care at this point. It’s to late to go back and they sound fine. 
One of my main grips about the DD SS4A was it’s noise floor. And the 4SQ fixed that. 
When the radio was 0 or off I had a hiss. Now I don’t. So it’s a win I guess.


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

Red Saber said:


> Open discussion as always.
> What’s everyone doing if the 4SQ flops?
> Personally I don’t care at this point. It’s to late to go back and they sound fine.
> One of my main grips about the DD SS4A was it’s noise floor. And the 4SQ fixed that.
> When the radio was 0 or off I had a hiss. Now I don’t. So it’s a win I guess.


If it fails im still keeping mine, I mean resell value at that point would be murder, but bet i wont be spending my money with Zapco in the future. I have a feeling it will surpass rated with how hard im driving mines


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Meh..... if anyone wants to feed the vultures, go ahead and try your luck. I'm sure there's been plenty of amplifiers in the past that didn't do rated. Just wasn't many sources that put out that kind of info, and those that did seemed to make sure they only tested gear that would have a stellar review. 

I stand by my perspective in that most of us aren't using the power we have available anyway, so if you don't hear signs of stress I wouldn't worry about it. The least thing that should come out of this is a company rectifying the situation and holding all tiers to a higher standard in ratings. They're definitely not going to recall amps. :laugh: At least test them and be honest with the results. That's if the refurb isn't a botched repair.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Next time I’ll be going back to class D. 
PDX or Mille


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

I saw the LX 150.4 amp Dyno test and was impressed! 

I wonder how well the Z-II / SP / AP perform on the Amp Dyno? 

Klifton, If I purchase the 150.4 /.6 AP from Amazon thru WoofersETC or TDH Global is this a legitimate purchase with full warranty?

Sucks having to deal with this as a new Zapco distributor, you handled it pretty good. The politician word salad was a little over the top ?

The answer/ post from KK was worrying for a ( possible ) customer. 

Also, I want to see testing done on the current SQ amps from customers not a manufactured cherry picked amp. 

I will pay for the shipping both ways for a Zapco 4 ch St-SQ to be sent to Chi and back. Ups 2 day Ground from metro ATL to CHI 60007 is $13.02 so about $30 round trip.

If it’s over $30 would anyone like to match the return shipping?


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

The LX just got rated. It wasn’t impressive when we see amps hit rated plus a few hundred all the time now. Full ranges hitting rated plus 10% or more. But they are more rare then the monos. They just don’t get dynoed as much


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

Bayboy said:


> Meh..... if anyone wants to feed the vultures, go ahead and try your luck. I'm sure there's been plenty of amplifiers in the past that didn't do rated. Just wasn't many sources that put out that kind of info, and those that did seemed to make sure they only tested gear that would have a stellar review.
> 
> I stand by my perspective in that most of us aren't using the power we have available anyway, so if you don't hear signs of stress I wouldn't worry about it. The least thing that should come out of this is a company rectifying the situation and holding all tiers to a higher standard in ratings. They're definitely not going to recall amps. <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/laugh.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" class="inlineimg" /> At least test them and be honest with the results. That's if the refurb isn't a botched repair.


Hello, This tested amp isn’t a 1350 w amp, it’s a 1000 watt amp. This amp is mislabeled ( the STSQ line as a whole could be too). Customers purchased this amp based on those specs. 350 watts is 25% of 1350 watts. 35% of the actual power missing. That’s a big deal. 

Makes me worry about all the Zapco amps aside from the LX that Big D Wiz tested, even the AP. Would love to see the Z-II / AP and other Zapco amps dynoed.

The Sundown 3k amp & it’s dismal performance was eye opening. That amp is $879 and it is Sundown Audio’s top of the line SCV Korean buildhouse amp. Shame on them. At least the higher end Zapco LX did well. 

I offered to pay shipping for a DIYMA member to send in their STSQ amp to be tested b/c results from those tests will certainly hold more weight with me than an amp the Mfr. picked to have tested. Have a good day!


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

ChaseUTB said:


> Hello, This tested amp isn’t a 1350 w amp, it’s a 1000 watt amp. This amp is mislabeled ( the STSQ line as a whole could be too). Customers purchased this amp based on those specs. 350 watts is 25% of 1350 watts. 35% of the actual power missing. That’s a big deal.
> 
> Makes me worry about all the Zapco amps aside from the LX that Big D Wiz tested, even the AP. Would love to see the Z-II / AP and other Zapco amps dynoed.
> 
> ...



If the test wasn't a fluke, then it will be unfortunate and is what it is. What I question is the next step for the consumers. The manufacturer is the one to make things right if all goes wrong, but you can bet it won't be buying those amps back. There's way too many out there in use. 

So what happens? Do owners try to dump them for pennies on the dollar? I'm sure some will, but trust me.. some will make use of them regardless. Just slap a new rating on them and use them for what they are. Lesser power, still sound good, just not worth the original asking price as far as the consumer looks at the cost per watt. Yes, it could be a big deal, but once the money is spent, what can a consumer do???


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

This whole situation is crap. 
But it is what it is. 
I mean it’s Zapco. You would expect a Walmart pioneer to do this but even they make rated plus some.


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Red Saber said:


> This whole situation is crap.
> But it is what it is.
> I mean it’s Zapco. You would expect a Walmart pioneer to do this but even they make rated plus some.


I think this is all a moot point as we are still waiting to see any other new budget zapco unit tested. Until that happens, then we will have a clear idea.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Some mysteries are better left unsolved.


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Red Saber said:


> Some mysteries are better left unsolved.


 No they're not, not when it comes to objective numbers and facts, haha


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Red Saber said:


> The LX just got rated. It wasn’t impressive when we see amps hit rated plus a few hundred all the time now. Full ranges hitting rated plus 10% or more. But they are more rare then the monos. They just don’t get dynoed as much


That will change... I am about to sprinkle in a barrage of 4 channels this year. I have:
Zapco ST-4X SQ
Zapco ST-64d.BT
Massive Audio BLX44
Rockford Forsgate TM400x4AD
Alphard Deaf Bonce 180.4
Skar Audio SKv2 200.4
Wet Sounds SYN-DX4
Taramps TS-800x4
Orion XTR1000.4

And supposedly coming are the Zapco ST-204D SQ and Z-150.4 II

Hopefully I show some multi-channel love in the future.....


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Red Saber said:


> This whole situation is crap.
> But it is what it is.
> I mean it’s Zapco. You would expect a Walmart pioneer to do this but even they make rated plus some.


This going to hurt.... but so do Dual XPR84d's from Walmart....


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

bigblank69 said:


> And supposedly coming are the Zapco ST-204D SQ


Currently running that, very interested to see how not up to spec my whole setup is, along with the 1350


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

so did we ever get a non repaired 1350 on the dyno?

also, i think were forgetting one thing. One thing that always seems to stick out in these "dyno" discussions.. rated power is only part of the picture. yeah, it sucks to not get what they told you, but saying "this amp makes rated power" doesnt automatically make it better than one that doesnt.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

bigblank69 said:


> That will change... I am about to sprinkle in a barrage of 4 channels this year. I have:
> Zapco ST-4X SQ
> Zapco ST-64d.BT
> Massive Audio BLX44
> ...


Ryan, I've got a NIB PPI 1000.4 I'm happy to send if you want. It would be interesting what this little 4 channel puts out.


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> so did we ever get a non repaired 1350 on the dyno?
> 
> also, i think were forgetting one thing. One thing that always seems to stick out in these "dyno" discussions.. rated power is only part of the picture. yeah, it sucks to not get what they told you, but saying "this amp makes rated power" doesnt automatically make it better than one that doesnt.


That's a true statement.. a lot of things get overlooked beyond power ratings...


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Gump_Runner said:


> Ryan, I've got a NIB PPI 1000.4 I'm happy to send if you want. It would be interesting what this little 4 channel puts out.


Is that the ION 1000.4?


----------



## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

bigblank69 said:


> Is that the ION 1000.4?


Yes NIB


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Gump_Runner said:


> Yes NIB


Cool, I'll happily give that a run on the dyno. At least I know it won't come with my arch nemesis spade connectors


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Ah. Forgot about the dual. What did it put out certified?


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

bigblank69 said:


> Cool, I'll happily give that a run on the dyno. At least I know it won't come with my arch nemesis spade connectors


PM me where to send it and I'll send it your way.


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Red Saber said:


> Ah. Forgot about the dual. What did it put out certified?


I think it was 78Wx4 Certified @ 13.97


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Dual Amp Dyno https://youtu.be/23CVp1nczoM


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

V8toilet said:


> Dual Amp Dyno https://youtu.be/23CVp1nczoM



My memory is fading lol. Does its rated 4x80 @14.1V


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> so did we ever get a non repaired 1350 on the dyno?
> 
> also, i think were forgetting one thing. One thing that always seems to stick out in these "dyno" discussions.. rated power is only part of the picture. yeah, it sucks to not get what they told you, but saying "this amp makes rated power" doesnt automatically make it better than one that doesnt.


While definitely true, that's an aside. That viewpoint has to be carefully made especially when it comes to certain brands yet is not given to others. It can often come off as damage control whereas a company being honest avoids all. 


In the case of the 1350, perhaps simply rating it as a 500, 700, & 1000 watt amp would change the outlook entirely considering the brand is usually costly for the power given compared to some others. It then could easily be said & respected that it is the quality of build & sound that takes up the lot. After all, until the dyno came up, people were still seemingly satisfied with the purchase. In my opinion, they should still be.


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Bayboy said:


> While definitely true, that's an aside. That viewpoint has to be carefully made especially when it comes to certain brands yet is not given to others. It can often come off as damage control whereas a company being honest avoids all.
> 
> 
> In the case of the 1350, perhaps simply rating it as a 500, 700, & 1000 watt amp would change the outlook entirely considering the brand is usually costly for the power given compared to some others. It then could easily be said & respected that it is the quality of build & sound that takes up the lot. After all, until the dyno came up, people were still seemingly satisfied with the purchase. In my opinion, they should still be.


Yeah to me it becomes a bit of a slippery slope, and at the end of the day if they are all under ratings, then that is dishonesty from the company plain and simple. 
If the refurb is accurate, we'll say its 500rms at 4 ohm, well they should have called it as such, and like you say, let whatever perception of SQ take up the rest of their price. 
Still eagerly awaiting all the new tests though, so we can know. 

I have no clue on what would really make SQ qualities in an amp, but can it really justify a fair chunk of change difference? I was looking at Orion tests today, their unit rated at 600 putting out something like 800. And that's for a hundred bucks less. On a supposedly hand made board in Korea too. 
Zapco must be making a killing, or they really are spending oodles more somewhere inside.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Minibull said:


> I have no clue on what would really make SQ qualities in an amp, but can it really justify a fair chunk of change difference? I was looking at Orion tests today, their unit rated at 600 putting out something like 800. And that's for a hundred bucks less. On a supposedly hand made board in Korea too.
> Zapco must be making a killing, or they really are spending oodles more somewhere inside.




That's an age-old question that is easily answered by the equally old adage, *all watts are not created equal*. Even if competing brands source boards from the same build house, higher prices *should reflect* the better build (engineer's touch?), use of higher quality parts, better QC, etc. For all we can assume (as an example), the same boards were made in the same facility as the past successful PPI & Soundstream boards. However, that does not automatically equate to the same design, quality, etc. Anywhere you go, it costs more for options beyond basic.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

The more I think about it the more ticked off I get. 
I’ve begone looking for replacements but it’s going to be at least a year. 
I have to keep about the same size. Hertz Mille it is.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

I agree with Baybo. The amplifier business is like the mattress business, where they are really a blind product, wrought with snake oil talk and promises backed up by nothing but faith in the name brand. Why do you pay 50% more for brand A over brand B if they have similar specifications both on paper and in testing. 

He has a point in that if you were happy with the sound of the amplifier before, than why would that change when you think you have a few less watts, maybe? 

I swapped a higher end Pioneer amplifier with a lower end Pioneer amplifier, with the same power rating, and could not tell a difference in SQ. The only time I do notice a difference is when there is a big jump in power, like 100 plus % more like the time I went from 40 wpc to over 100 wpc.


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## clifff150 (Apr 19, 2012)

Honestly, I think the issue was with the refurb unit. I very well could be wrong but I just don't think a reputable brand like Zapco would offer not only a budget line but then have that budget line overrated. 

I've been looking at the 4 channel hard but the numbers don't worry me, it's how hot the amp gets apparently because it will be behind a seat with no way of installing a fan.

Im anxiously waiting the others Ryan has to test. Zapco may not have picked the best of the batch to send to Ryan but I still won't be convinced until a "consumer" unit has been tested to verify.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

The 4SQ does get extreamly hot


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

V8toilet said:


> I agree with Baybo. The amplifier business is like the mattress business, where they are really a blind product, wrought with snake oil talk and promises backed up by nothing but faith in the name brand. Why do you pay 50% more for brand A over brand B if they have similar specifications both on paper and in testing.
> 
> He has a point in that if you were happy with the sound of the amplifier before, than why would that change when you think you have a few less watts, maybe?
> 
> I swapped a higher end Pioneer amplifier with a lower end Pioneer amplifier, with the same power rating, and could not tell a difference in SQ. The only time I do notice a difference is when there is a big jump in power, like 100 plus % more like the time I went from 40 wpc to over 100 wpc.



Unfortunately, that is the problem that has always plagued the car audio community, unjustified brand bias whether it is for or against. Yes, if you have a good track record of satisfaction with any company in any business, you're more than likely to continue being a patron. However, that is not the case for all. Sometimes things go wrong and it changes the perspective from there on. I've had this happen in the past when dealing with auto repair shops and all it took was that one time of getting burned to start looking elsewhere. Same with restaurants, cable companies, big box stores, insurance companies, e-tailers, etc... It's all across the board. However, it could just be a one-time occurrence, series, etc that should not to be the final determiner. 


But let's not mistake or twist this conversation to equate that a watt is a watt. There are some things that the dyno cannot measure, like the response, noise, etc. That is my point. I've used cheaper amps that did well. I've used more expensive amps of the same power rating that did just as well. I've used some that were subjectively better in other ways. A good comparison is the JBL MS-A5001 vs the back end of a PDX-V9. Similar power but with different control of the same sub, same box, & same tune. Nothing was changed except the amps. The JBL was loose and more forceful in the bottom octaves. The PDX-V9 sounded more tightly controlled with slightly less low-end rumble. Both exceeded expectations in sound and output. Which one was better? Which would you choose? Not easy to answer. 


As far as throwing in Dual and other likes. Some praise the surprising numbers, others scoff due to the name, price, and past reputation. Same for other brands. How many have actually had one in their hands to put up against something else? Not very many and until a real-world comparison is made for each individual, there isn't much that can be said for or against. Judge by your own experience and if it works good for you, then so be it because *there is no perfect amplifier*! It's just a small piece of the puzzle.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

Any updates? Surprising no one wants to get their amp tested, I offered to pay for shipping up to a certain amount. 

Has Zapco or Aurigin figured out a dealer network yet? I asked a question regarding purchasing a new Zapco amp and warranty & the question went unanswered. I guess I will have to call or email to get more info


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ChaseUTB said:


> Any updates? Surprising no one wants to get their amp tested, I offered to pay for shipping up to a certain amount.
> 
> Has Zapco or Aurigin figured out a dealer network yet? I asked a question regarding purchasing a new Zapco amp and warranty & the question went unanswered. I guess I will have to call or email to get more info


What exactly did you ask? I just got set up with them yesterday 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

ChaseUTB said:


> Any updates? Surprising no one wants to get their amp tested, I offered to pay for shipping up to a certain amount.
> 
> Has Zapco or Aurigin figured out a dealer network yet? I asked a question regarding purchasing a new Zapco amp and warranty & the question went unanswered. I guess I will have to call or email to get more info


Here is a quick update from my standpoint on testing... I am waiting on the factory fresh ST-1350 to come in still, it shipped off on Monday and should be here tomorrow or Monday. Only downside to it arriving on Monday is I go on Vacation Tuesday and won't be able to test it until I return August 1. 

In addition I am also in the middle of upgrading my PSU's to a different model that will adjust up to 16V and will use those in conjunction with my 12 XS Power D1400 PSU's from now on. This should allow me to hit dead on nuts 14.4V on these small amps that I typically do not run the batteries on. There is nothing wrong with my current PSUs, but several people freak out when the see a number less than 14.4V and can not do the math (Or understand how math works). 

The ST-4X SQ is being held for this change... I did a few quick preliminaries on it at 40hz, but do not want to talk about those results as the voltage was at 14.18 (There is that pesky math again), and I did it at 40hz. I got confirmation that amp is rated at 1khz, and the ST-1350s are rated at 100hz so I will do my best to replicate those tests. 

As for Zapco amps to test... I really don't think I need anymore at the moment... beyond the ST-4x SQ I have here, Zapco is sending me 4 other amps outside of the ST-1350 to test. The ST-6X SQ, ST204D SQ, ST-500xII, Z-150.4 II . So I have 6 Zapco's to go thru after the 1350 retest... and that is honestly enough for me for a while.... Lord knows it will take me the better half of the fall to get thru them all...


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

As for the 40hz test on the 4SQ. It’s full range so it should at least do rated at 40hz and 1k.


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Red Saber said:


> As for the 40hz test on the 4SQ. It’s full range so it should at least do rated at 40hz and 1k.


Should it? Yes, but if its tested at 1khz and performs at 1khz, it was rated accurately... Just not to level we would agree on that it SHOULD be tested at...


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Update, got the amps in from Zapco and did a quick off camera test on the 1350XMII (Battery was dying on the camera and my clamp meter needs new batteries)... Anyways this one performed as one would expect. The internals did not look modified, but the amp was tested in China prior. Here is what I got for results

1 ohm
Certified 1x1247W @ 13.78V
Certified 1x1372W @ 14.60V
Uncertified 1x1532W @14.35V

When I am back from vacation I will get working on the video and the 4 Channel ST-4X SQ Video


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## 04quadcab (Dec 31, 2017)

bigblank69 said:


> Update, got the amps in from Zapco and did a quick off camera test on the 1350XMII (Battery was dying on the camera and my clamp meter needs new batteries)... Anyways this one performed as one would expect. The internals did not look modified, but the amp was tested in China prior. Here is what I got for results
> 
> 1 ohm
> Certified 1x1247W @ 13.78V
> ...


Thank you for your service to our community and thank you for sharing your information here with us first. I'm honestly a bit surprised that you shared that spoiler with us.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

So now does the speculation and conspiracy stuff begin? Hahaha

Thanks for posting an update through, doesn't mean much for me running it with 4 ohm, but I guess I can feel better that it _might_ have it's rated 650rms


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Minibull said:


> So now does the speculation and conspiracy stuff begin? Hahaha
> 
> Thanks for posting an update through, doesn't mean much for me running it with 4 ohm, but I guess I can feel better that it _might_ have it's rated 650rms


That one I unfortunately have bad news for you on... did 582 @ 4 ohms at 14.66V...

Zapco's internal testing did reveal the amps do not achieve 650 or 950 @ 4 and 2 ohms...

The president of the company told me they are revising the ratings down to 550 @ 4 and 900 @ 2...


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

04quadcab said:


> Thank you for your service to our community and thank you for sharing your information here with us first. I'm honestly a bit surprised that you shared that spoiler with us.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Since this is a retest, I felt it was appropriate to get the info out as soon as I tested it. I unfortunately won't be able to make a video on it for about 2 weeks (Leaving Tuesday AM for vacation...), and I felt it was best to at the very least get info out there anyway I could


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

bigblank69 said:


> That one I unfurtonately have bad news for you on... did 582 @ 4 ohms at 14.66V...
> 
> Zapco's internal testing did reveal the amps do not achieve 650 or 950 @ 4 and 2 ohms...
> 
> They president of the company told me they are revising the ratings down to 550 @ 4 and 900 @ 2...


Booo, hiss, hahaha

Cheers for the heads up there, bit sad but ah well. 

Now, the unit is unused and I can return it...do I bother?


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Let the tears start flowing and the snot slinging commence.


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Gump_Runner said:


> Let the tears start flowing and the snot slinging commence.


Or we could approach this like rational adults...just saying, haha

In this case, I'm not sure if it's worth sending it back to the states to get something else. If I got something to do 1200rms @ 4 ohm, it's only gunna just break the 3db threshold, and I'm not fussed on SPL really so it doesn't seem worth it


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

This is a budget line, even then it should pass specs. So one amp failed miserably and one passed .... kind of ...

If it isn’t making ratings at 4 or 2 ohm then how does it get a pass when u have failed other amps for that before?


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## serlvz (Jul 14, 2015)

*"I am waiting on the factory fresh ST-1350 to come in "*

Yes, but that is from an outfit that has, now, been called into question. I'm not sure they'd send you an amp that won't do what it is supposed to.

Do you, or do you not, need a 1350II to test? I have one sitting here, NIB, awaiting an install this fall.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

My 1k is at 2ohm also. Oh well, I already found a few smaller sized 5 channels that match these ratings and cost about the same.

Actually the 5 channels do more across the board lol


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

serlvz said:


> *"I am waiting on the factory fresh ST-1350 to come in "*
> 
> Yes, but that is from an outfit that has, now, been called into question. I'm not sure they'd send you an amp that won't do what it is supposed to.
> 
> Do you, or do you not, need a 1350II to test? I have one sitting here, NIB, awaiting an install this fall.


I'm not understanding your point. The first amp was a refurb, second sent via Zapco. Both did not meet rated. What difference do you expect by having yours personally tested unless you just want the numbers of what you own? If that's the case, send it in, but not under the guise that you're aiding in community awareness which is a done deal as of now. I can't see that a company would purposely send in an amp that doesn't do well if they were out to prove the first test was incorrect. It's time to move on, at least from the 1350.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

So I guess I should expect 100 watts less from my 1k at 2ohm also


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Red Saber said:


> So I guess I should expect 100 watts less from my 1k at 2ohm also


Well, it would be safe to expect that vs mulling over individual amp performance that is going to be fairly insignificant at this point. 

Not giving the company a pass, just trying to bring some sanity back to owners unless it's an OCD thing. As I've said before, if the audible performance is there, roll with it. Nothing else to lose except for money in resale. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Vividi#12 (Aug 24, 2017)

Now is the entire ST lineup suspicious of overstating their ratings ?


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

ChaseUTB said:


> This is a budget line, even then it should pass specs. So one amp failed miserably and one passed .... kind of ...
> 
> If it isn’t making ratings at 4 or 2 ohm then how does it get a pass when u have failed other amps for that before?


I can't say I ever "Failed" a 1 ohm stable amp for missing its 4 or 2 Ohm ratings. 

With that being said Zapco at the very least acknowledged that the amp did not meet their specs at 4 and 2 ohms. Instead of brushing aside the results they are going to rate the amplifiers at 550 and 900 (Which I can confirm they do). From what I am being told, they will be adding a whole new layer of QC going forward (Including birthsheets) to avoid this issue again. 

I'll go into details of everything in the video... 

Also I wouldnt say this amp "Failed" its ratings at 1 ohm, 1247W came at 13.78 and 1378 came at 14.6... if you correct for voltage you get between 1322 and 1340 certified at 14.4V.... Still not 1350.. but Zapco did tell me they rate the amp at 100hz (Why I have no idea), so when I test fully I will also do 100hz.

Lots more info will come out...


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Red Saber said:


> So I guess I should expect 100 watts less from my 1k at 2ohm also


I don't think that can be concluded... I have a ST500XII here as well, Zapco found it puts out more power @ 4,2 and 1 ohm than rated (They will be revising that one upwards).

Also the ST200.4D does more, and a few others based on their testing... we will find out for sure when I strap those up...


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

I see a Helix G Five in my near future.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Red Saber said:


> I see a Helix G Five in my near future.


you almost remind me of a this guy Terry.. well, you always did, but even more so now lol


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

bigblank69 said:


> ... Still not 1350.. but Zapco did tell me they rate the amp at 100hz (Why I have no idea), so when I test fully I will also do 100hz.
> 
> Lots more info will come out...


I'm not sure why either, but if we want to pick nits, the 40Hz "standard" of the AD-1 doesn't match CEA-2006 either, as I understand it. Perhaps Tony selected 40Hz because he felt it more accurately reflected real world performance? 

Just one more example of how far various manufacturers are from being on the same page. And I swear I read a post from Andy several years ago with comments on the CEA 2006 standard being useful, but not stringent enough. (Basically, there was enough wiggle room within the standard for manufacturers to skew results in their favor.) My google-fu is usually pretty good, but I came up with goose eggs when I tried to find his post a few days ago. Maybe I imagined it. 

From the CAF Group website...
_
"Two signals are specified in the standard: for full-range amplifiers, the signal shall be a repetition of a burst of 20 cycles of a 1 kHz sine wave at 100%, followed by 480 cycles of 1 kHz at 10% (–20 dB). For limited-range amplifiers (subwoofer amplifiers), the signal shall be a repetition of a burst of 10 cycles of a 50 Hz sine wave at 100%, followed by 20 cycles of 50 Hz at 10% (–20 dB)."_


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

CEA only test 4ohm. Most can hit that mark but flunk 2 and 1 ohm royally.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

SkizeR said:


> you almost remind me of a this guy Terry.. well, you always did, but even more so now lol


I take that as a bad thing?

If I’d know about RG sounds that’s what I would have got. It’s the same price as both zaps


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Red Saber said:


> CEA only test 4ohm. Most can hit that mark but flunk 2 and 1 ohm royally.


Does that make it slightly odd in this case? Or was their maths on their figures off to begin with? I'm referring to the fact that it can juust hit it's 1 ohm target, but not the others at more efficient running.


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

bigblank69 said:


> 04quadcab said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you for your service to our community and thank you for sharing your information here with us first. I'm honestly a bit surprised that you shared that spoiler with us.
> ...



Thanks ryan for giving us this update makes me feel a little better lol atleast I do


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## serlvz (Jul 14, 2015)

Bayboy said:


> I'm not understanding your point. The first amp was a refurb, second sent via Zapco. Both did not meet rated. What difference do you expect by having yours personally tested unless you just want the numbers of what you own? If that's the case, send it in, but not under the guise that you're aiding in community awareness which is a done deal as of now. I can't see that a company would purposely send in an amp that doesn't do well if they were out to prove the first test was incorrect. It's time to move on, at least from the 1350.



Jesus, calm down. I never saw the second post... I've been jumping around, and not reading every damn post.


> "That one I unfortunately have bad news for you on... did 582 @ 4 ohms at 14.66V...
> 
> Zapco's internal testing did reveal the amps do not achieve 650 or 950 @ 4 and 2 ohms...
> 
> The president of the company told me they are revising the ratings down to 550 @ 4 and 900 @ 2...


 I missed the update; had only read the one where it did above rated at 1 ohm. 


I was going off of the post on Friday #199, which said


> Here is a quick update from my standpoint on testing... I am waiting on the factory fresh ST-1350 to come in still, it shipped off on Monday and should be here tomorrow or Monday.


Was only trying to be of help. Personally, I'll be fine at 550, even 500. That is near the "red zone" of the single 13.5 it will be driving. But, hey, thanks for the support... A little quick triggered. But it takes all types.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Minibull said:


> Does that make it slightly odd in this case? Or was their maths on their figures off to begin with? I'm referring to the fact that it can juust hit it's 1 ohm target, but not the others at more efficient running.


I doubt they label it CEA. Most “good” brands don’t bother.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

serlvz said:


> Jesus, calm down. I never saw the second post... I've been jumping around, and not reading every damn post. I missed the update; had only read the one where it did above rated at 1 ohm.
> 
> 
> I was going off of the post on Friday #199, which said
> ...


Its only red zone when listening to tones. 
You will never get 550 out of it.


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

This whole “debacle” makes me want to send my Z150.6SP to get tested...and I kinda wanna see a test of the AP amp too....wonder if they’re all underrated... and who would care if they found out they were (enough to change them out)....hmm...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

MrGreen83 said:


> This whole “debacle” makes me want to send my Z150.6SP to get tested...and I kinda wanna see a test of the AP amp too....wonder if they’re all underrated... and who would care if they found out they were (enough to change them out)....hmm...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I think the upper tier amps are no problem. It's just the lower tier.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

It was just at rated. Which doesn’t make sense now that I think about it. That test goes up to 1% THD. It should have put out way more being rated at .05%. It wouldn’t make its rating there.

And neither would the ST.


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

MrGreen83 said:


> This whole “debacle” makes me want to send my Z150.6SP to get tested...and I kinda wanna see a test of the AP amp too....wonder if they’re all underrated... and who would care if they found out they were (enough to change them out)....hmm...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it's a silly move to change anything out. Like was mentioned, I will have gone from 650rms to 582rms. Nil difference in actual output, and it would take some nice mental gymnastics to convince myself I'll hear a difference going to say a 700rms amp. It's sad but it's a negligible thing.
If it had pulled up 400 or less...sure, maybe then. But it certainly makes no sense to ship it back to the states and get something else. 


BUT if someone is coming into their stuff and hasn't got an amp, or is changing for some other reason, I'd look elsewhere. Far cheaper and better amps to choose from in the budget range, plus supporting a company that doesn't BS the numbers.

As far as my thinking goes, I'm sure they knew it didn't make rated power. It would seem super odd that a company would design or get their product made and then not verify it. Either they knew and were just hoping it sails by as it has for some years quite possibly, or the outsourced company building it starting cutting corners without them knowing. 
Again, if they did some random QC testing, surely they would have picked it up.


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Minibull I agree to some of your points. But one of the big reasons I recently purchased this SP amp (and have a second one on the way) was because the numbers said I could bridge 4 of the channels for 550x2 which I felt was perfect for my subs. 

Now hearing that I could be seeing considerably less? Is super disappointing for the price tag of these things :-( 

For folks running (any of) these amps on their front stage....I doubt the minor power number discrepancies will make a huge difference. 

Most of us have more power on hand, than our tweeters/midranges need/use anyways.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

It’s the idea of having amps that don’t make rate that drives me nuts. 
All the amps I’ve had for at least the last ten years have exceeded rating, by a lot. 
They may not have been “SQ” amps but we see what that gets us these days. 

The forum boner does strike again.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

MrGreen83 said:


> Minibull I agree to some of your points. But one of the big reasons I recently purchased this SP amp (and have a second one on the way) was because the numbers said I could bridge 4 of the channels for 550x2 which I felt was perfect for my subs.
> 
> Now hearing that I could be seeing considerably less? Is super disappointing for the price tag of these things :-(
> 
> ...


You would except for the price they would be underrated. If they are like the LX as I said earlier you won’t get rated at the spec THD. They will have to be 1%. Inaudible in my mind but still overrated.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Red Saber said:


> The forum boner does strike again.


Not fair at all to call it a forum boner unless you are willing to call it a 25+ year for boner with 25 years of stellar reputation and one sketchy budget line.

Can you name those underrated brands you have run? We will see if any of them ever made a bad amp.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

DC, DD mostly. And no they haven’t. 
The ST line is/was a forum boner. That’s the only reason I swapped to them. 
I was looking for brownie points because I kept getting crap from what I had. It doesn’t have the right name stamped on it. 

Yes I was defending them more then I should have, it was warranted.


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Red Saber said:


> DC, DD mostly. And no they haven’t.
> 
> The ST line is/was a forum boner. That’s the only reason I swapped to them.
> 
> ...




I really dislike seeing this. I know being on this forum...sort of makes u pay attention to what other’s opinions and views are...but at the end of the day....NO ONE HERE matters when it comes to YOUR SYSTEM. If you’re happy with DD....and it sounds good to u??? And u aren’t competing or looking for other’s approval.....enjoy your system man. 

I’ve seen a lot of brand-bashing here, and people sell their stuff...then go out and buy another brand because of what others think. Forget them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

MrGreen83 said:


> I really dislike seeing this. I know being on this forum...sort of makes u pay attention to what other’s opinions and views are...but at the end of the day....NO ONE HERE matters when it comes to YOUR SYSTEM. If you’re happy with DD....and it sounds good to u??? And u aren’t competing or looking for other’s approval.....enjoy your system man.
> 
> I’ve seen a lot of brand-bashing here, and people sell their stuff...then go out and buy another brand because of what others think. Forget them.
> 
> ...


This is a 100% true statement. Don't worry about others perceptions of your reality.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

I do compete when my back lets me. We know judges are not bias....

Plus I did make a profit of the sale. Until I needed fans to keep the dang thing from going thermal.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

1087/5000
Hello everyone. I am Vincenzo Biasella (my nick name is Enzo), Italian and President of APEX and therefore also the owner of the company that bought Zapco in 1993. As well as the Car Audio business since 1883, I am also a fan of hi-fi like all of you and therefore I am very impressed, as well as of course, what's going on around this ST-1350XM trial. Ask me whatever you want and I will answer you on every question with the utmost transparency and simplicity so that all of you can also understand technical issues, including this thing of the declared power as well as the sound quality. I can also give you all the real powers of all the amplifiers and also the production tolerances because usually the declared power is lower, but, in some cases, it can also be higher. So, since I have seen many doubts and also inaccuracies, I can answer everything with the help of excellent Italian audio engineers who work with me. I am waiting for your questions, thanking you for the interest shown for the Zapco brand.


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Thanks for popping in here, and giving your thoughts to share with us, it is much appreciated. 

One question i have is in regards to your comment there about it being usual for items to not reach their advertised figures. I see that as a very dishonest thing, to represent a figure on the box of the product, and to then say its normal for it not to achieve that figure. Maybe there is a slight miscommunication here, but that is not right from a company of supposed quality. Do you have further thoughts on this matter? 
An item can output more, and it can output a bit less sure, but a whole 100rms short at 4 ohm is a bit past manufacturing tolerances, and more of it will never ever output rated. 

I say this as someone who as of 2 weeks ago thought he was getting an amp setup with some quality to it, coming from Zapco. Although it was the budget line, its like everyone has said here before "it's Zapco, maybe Chinese made, but its still Zapco..."
So I went to the trouble of shipping 2 Zapco amps to NZ from the USA, and a matter of days later this whole situation blew up. Certainly leaves a sour taste in the mouth for someone to say "it's normal guys, don't worry". As I have noted, I still have this new ST1350 sitting here, and I'm split as to what to do with it


My second question would be for how long has Zapco known this to be the case? I had thought that a reputable company would be running their own quality control on their products, or at least verifying that the design will do what it's specced to do.
Someone had mentioned that "Zapco have known they don't output the rated figure", and that to me seems like a company that is just coasting on that name, and keeping that hidden. Until one day someone does a few tests, and here we are.
Even the fusing was a pretty neat setup which can usually be a good tell, usually seeing bad amps with small 20A fuses claiming to have 5000rms. In this Zapco 1350 case, 160A of fusing...must be really capable....


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)




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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Enzo-I have an ST-5Xii that states different power ratings in the manual and online. The manual states 80x4 at 4 ohms plus 350x1 at 2 ohms. Online states 100x4 at 4 ohms and 300x1 at 2 ohms. What does this amp really do? 

For what it's worth, my two ST-X amps run my system flawlessly. There's something special about how these amps sound. Just more transparency in the sound compared to a well respected somewhat pricy 6ch class d amp I had that in my experience puts out gobs of power but that's about it kinda like the first generation Alpine PDX amps. System in my sig gets loud and clean with plenty of amp power left over. The bridged 4sq has NEVER thermaled even though it does get plenty hot to the touch on a rack behind the back seat of my Grand Cherokee. Heat does have room to escape even though the top lip of the rack is up against the back seats but open on sides and bottom. As long as an amp does what I need it to with power to spare I'm good to go. Being misled on ratings can sting a bit but it is what it is.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Hi Mr. Minibull (sorry i dont know your real name) I am not a native English speaker and I can easily be misunderstood. Besides, I'm not practical about this forum and the forums in general, so I do not know if this answer comes to you. I did not say that it is normal to write on the boxes of products, figures that are different from reality. I wanted to say that it can happen that a product does not reach them and there are two possibilities for this to happen: the first is that the project is different (and here I agree that the thing is dishonest), the second and 'that one or more products do not fully meet the characteristics of the project and this can also happen quite easily without the manufacturer knowing. Everything depends on production tolerances and also on the defects of some parts. Unfortunately, not everything can be tested, either before, during, or at the end of the production process. This is due to the lack of accurate checks that unfortunately can not be done on every product that leaves the production chain. If then such checks were made even minutely, the defect of the part or product itself may come out later. If it were not so all the products would be perfect and there would not even be the need to take them to repair sometimes. Regarding the tolerances of the components used in production the effect of the same has effect on the square of the power factor. 
Therefore a 5% overall tolerance on the components can lead to a different power of 10% and a tolerance of 10% on the components at a different power of 20%. Please understand, I'm not looking for excuses and I'm sorry that this happens, but the whole thing can not be blamed for dishonest, but only for lack of accuracy in the quality control of production. Then there is to say that we are talking about the power of the amp that is the easiest thing to measure, but that is also the one that least affects the quality of the sound result. There should be many other measurements that are not made on all products in production for features that affect much more than the power on the acoustic result, such as the measurement of BIAS. Unfortunately we stop at power and distortion and believe me, if these were the most important factors, the amplifiers would all play the same way. CONCLUDE BY SAYING THAT YOU ARE REASON TO SAY THAT IT IS NOT HONEST TO WRITE ON THE PACKAGING DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS FROM THE PROJECT AND THAT THE COMPANIES SHOULD MAKE ACCURATE CHECKS ON THE MANUFACTURING PROCESSES TO ENSURE THAT ALL THE PRODUCTS REACH THE ADVISED MINIMUM LEVELS. I spoken now in general and not of the ST-1350XM case. I can confirm that all ZAPCO amplifier have normally from 10% to 30% more power than rated at each impedance, but it is the average, not the single case.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Hi, here is late now and I cannot check what running production is the your ST-5X . If you give me the serial number we can understand what series it is. Normally in Zapco we try each production to make the product better, but unfortunately in the Manual and Web site is not wrote what are the features improved time by time. So the name of the product is the same but the web site publish the features of the last production. The manual have to be accurate because have reference with the specific production. If the manual rated your amplifier 80 watt mean that it is the minimum power. Easily it can be 20% more and then reach 100 watt. Please give me your serial number i will tell you exactly the power measured in the production time.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Long story short. 
You have lost quality control. I get it, we want cheap amps so something has to give. 

Personally I will never own any more. This is stuff budget brands do.


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

How do Zapco's current high end offerings compare to the old C2K amps? Last Zapco's I owned were the c2ks...


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

EnzoB said:


> Therefore a 5% overall tolerance on the components can lead to a different power of 10% and a tolerance of 10% on the components at a different power of 20%. Please understand, I'm not looking for excuses and I'm sorry that this happens, but the whole thing can not be blamed for dishonest, but only for lack of accuracy in the quality control of production.


Seeing how this has caused a bit of a public relations and brand issue, do you have any near-term plans to improve your current quality control processes to prevent under-performing amplifiers from leaving the production line?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Red Saber said:


> Long story short.
> You have lost quality control. I get it, we want cheap amps so something has to give.
> 
> Personally I will never own any more. This is stuff budget brands do.


Though Zapco is *not* a "budget brand", these *are* relatively inexpensive amps. Of course I am not saying they should inflate the numbers because of that, and doing that could hurt their image overall. 

However, let me ask you this: Had you never seen this thread, would you say your amps perform well and sound good for the price that you paid??

I have a st-4xp and a st-1000xmii, combined I think I have about $450 in them and they sound great. In my previous build I had 3 times that much invested in amps and it did not sound 3 times better! Lol

I am not trying to defend Zapco... just trying to put things in perspective. 

_P.S. In my old age, I am starting to think most companies (and people) are bullshitting me, so I just need to choose what level of ******** I am willing to accept! Lol_


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DavidRam said:


> Though Zapco is *not* a "budget brand", these *are* relatively inexpensive amps. Of course I am not saying they should inflate the numbers because of that, and doing that could hurt their image overall.
> 
> However, let me ask you this: Had you never seen this thread, would you say your amps perform well and sound good for the price that you paid??
> 
> ...



exactly my thoughts. If all you care about is numbers get yourself one of those dual amps from walmart. And again, i am not defending them. As a matter of fact in on the fence about not using them anymore because their reputation is tarnished for now, which effects my business.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> exactly my thoughts. If all you care about is numbers get yourself one of those dual amps from walmart. And again, i am not defending them. As a matter of fact in on the fence about not using them anymore because their reputation is tarnished for now, which effects my business.


It's like that girlfriend who'd been telling you for years that her tits were real, and one day you find out that they're fake... It kinda stings to have been lied to, but then you think "whatever, they're nice tits anyways" and you get over it and live happily ever after.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

DavidRam said:


> Though Zapco is *not* a "budget brand", these *are* relatively inexpensive amps. Of course I am not saying they should inflate the numbers because of that, and doing that could hurt their image overall.
> 
> However, let me ask you this: Had you never seen this thread, would you say your amps perform well and sound good for the price that you paid??
> 
> ...


Idk. For the price I’m not really getting much. I mean it’s only 65 Watts a channel. You can get 125 a channel for that cost. Bigger foot print but they also won’t thermal like my 4SQ does. And $299 for the “1000” can get 2k for that. Quality stuff. They are nowhere as powerful as the amps that came out and I do find myself missing that when listening to 90s hip hop

Yes it’s cookie cutter but a proven design. https://www.wolframaudio.com/collections/amplifiers

If that’s not your style. https://www.rgsound.it/g-five_helix-id-32590.html


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

DavidRam said:


> It's like that girlfriend who'd been telling you for years that her tits were real, and one day you find out that they're fake... It kinda stings to have been lied to, but then you think "whatever, they're nice tits anyways" and you get over it and live happily ever after.


Yeah if they where tits I guess. 
You didn’t pay for them though.


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Speaking of thermal. I think I feel good enough to put the $30 fan in right now.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

EnzoB said:


> Hi Mr. Minibull (sorry i dont know your real name) I am not a native English speaker and I can easily be misunderstood. Besides, I'm not practical about this forum and the forums in general, so I do not know if this answer comes to you. I did not say that it is normal to write on the boxes of products, figures that are different from reality. I wanted to say that it can happen that a product does not reach them and there are two possibilities for this to happen: the first is that the project is different (and here I agree that the thing is dishonest), the second and 'that one or more products do not fully meet the characteristics of the project and this can also happen quite easily without the manufacturer knowing. Everything depends on production tolerances and also on the defects of some parts. Unfortunately, not everything can be tested, either before, during, or at the end of the production process. This is due to the lack of accurate checks that unfortunately can not be done on every product that leaves the production chain. If then such checks were made even minutely, the defect of the part or product itself may come out later. If it were not so all the products would be perfect and there would not even be the need to take them to repair sometimes. Regarding the tolerances of the components used in production the effect of the same has effect on the square of the power factor.
> Therefore a 5% overall tolerance on the components can lead to a different power of 10% and a tolerance of 10% on the components at a different power of 20%. Please understand, I'm not looking for excuses and I'm sorry that this happens, but the whole thing can not be blamed for dishonest, but only for lack of accuracy in the quality control of production. Then there is to say that we are talking about the power of the amp that is the easiest thing to measure, but that is also the one that least affects the quality of the sound result. There should be many other measurements that are not made on all products in production for features that affect much more than the power on the acoustic result, such as the measurement of BIAS. Unfortunately we stop at power and distortion and believe me, if these were the most important factors, the amplifiers would all play the same way. CONCLUDE BY SAYING THAT YOU ARE REASON TO SAY THAT IT IS NOT HONEST TO WRITE ON THE PACKAGING DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS FROM THE PROJECT AND THAT THE COMPANIES SHOULD MAKE ACCURATE CHECKS ON THE MANUFACTURING PROCESSES TO ENSURE THAT ALL THE PRODUCTS REACH THE ADVISED MINIMUM LEVELS. I spoken now in general and not of the ST-1350XM case. I can confirm that all ZAPCO amplifier have normally from 10% to 30% more power than rated at each impedance, but it is the average, not the single case.


The best thing you can do is fix the issue(s). Discussing the what, when, why and how doesn't do that. The proverbial "when in a hole stop digging" applies here.


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

EnzoB said:


> Hi Mr. Minibull (sorry i dont know your real name) I am not a native English speaker and I can easily be misunderstood. Besides, I'm not practical about this forum and the forums in general, so I do not know if this answer comes to you. I did not say that it is normal to write on the boxes of products, figures that are different from reality. I wanted to say that it can happen that a product does not reach them and there are two possibilities for this to happen: the first is that the project is different (and here I agree that the thing is dishonest), the second and 'that one or more products do not fully meet the characteristics of the project and this can also happen quite easily without the manufacturer knowing. Everything depends on production tolerances and also on the defects of some parts. Unfortunately, not everything can be tested, either before, during, or at the end of the production process. This is due to the lack of accurate checks that unfortunately can not be done on every product that leaves the production chain. If then such checks were made even minutely, the defect of the part or product itself may come out later. If it were not so all the products would be perfect and there would not even be the need to take them to repair sometimes. Regarding the tolerances of the components used in production the effect of the same has effect on the square of the power factor.
> Therefore a 5% overall tolerance on the components can lead to a different power of 10% and a tolerance of 10% on the components at a different power of 20%. Please understand, I'm not looking for excuses and I'm sorry that this happens, but the whole thing can not be blamed for dishonest, but only for lack of accuracy in the quality control of production. Then there is to say that we are talking about the power of the amp that is the easiest thing to measure, but that is also the one that least affects the quality of the sound result. There should be many other measurements that are not made on all products in production for features that affect much more than the power on the acoustic result, such as the measurement of BIAS. Unfortunately we stop at power and distortion and believe me, if these were the most important factors, the amplifiers would all play the same way. CONCLUDE BY SAYING THAT YOU ARE REASON TO SAY THAT IT IS NOT HONEST TO WRITE ON THE PACKAGING DIFFERENT CHARACTERISTICS FROM THE PROJECT AND THAT THE COMPANIES SHOULD MAKE ACCURATE CHECKS ON THE MANUFACTURING PROCESSES TO ENSURE THAT ALL THE PRODUCTS REACH THE ADVISED MINIMUM LEVELS. I spoken now in general and not of the ST-1350XM case. I can confirm that all ZAPCO amplifier have normally from 10% to 30% more power than rated at each impedance, but it is the average, not the single case.


Thank you for the reply.

I understand about tolerances in manufacturing, and it depends on the company and their "ethics" how they go about said tolerances. 

One company might work off the lowest value those tolerances can give you, and use that as their figure, that way they will be confident that they are always in 99% of cases going to reach that figure.

Another might take the middle road, and further, another might take the max value if every piece is optimal, resulting in most of their unit never achieving said figure, only in 1/100 units when everything is perfect.


As has been said, it appears that there is very little in QC done on these budget line amps. I would not call an amp that is down roughly 1/6 to 1/5 of its advertised output as being down to tolerances, not with modern components and manufacturing.


I agree with you that it isn't the end of the world, I'm sure noone will be able to ever tell any difference in sound, and also that it isn't the sole item affecting sound quality. But it's more the principle behind this. A company that does not rate their product somewhat accurately isn't something that is easy to support or defend. 

When I buy 1KG of sugar, I would expect to get pretty close to that 1KG, give or take. 
If I got 800g in actual product, I wouldn't want to hear about the quality of said sugar or anything related to that, as what faith I had is kind of gone. How can I believe that a company who can overrate their product, that they are then putting their efforts into quality too?


I will probably leave this here, as there is no point beating this dead horse more. Further to the comment above, it would be nice to know what Zapco are going to change or implement going forwards to fix this.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Vividi#12 said:


> Now is the entire ST lineup suspicious of overstating their ratings ?


each amplifier of the ST-X line have dfferences from rated power and effective power. average is 10% more than rated, but some can be also 20 or 30% more, if you tell me what amplifier you have and the serial number i can give you the effective power average of that production


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Gump_Runner said:


> The best thing you can do is fix the issue(s). Discussing the what, when, why and how doesn't do that. The proverbial "when in a hole stop digging" applies here.


yes sure, I am here for that. And what is the issue? Txs


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Minibull said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> I understand about tolerances in manufacturing, and it depends on the company and their "ethics" how they go about said tolerances.
> 
> ...


Thank you to give me the oportunity to tell what we are doing to fix that point. We are going to introduce in the production line more sofisticated instruments (digital of course) that can make accuate valuation of the specs of each amplifier, then to record that specs in one file. It can be helpful also for maintenance and repair. It is in the Studio line series. In the competition series just we do it, but we are going to introduce new products in the market that have technology inside to be connected automatically to big company server, then some speciifcations and also the amplifier story is recorded and registered in the big server and the customer can have access to that data every time he want. To be more clear that amplifiers are stable connected to that server and give the data to it any time happen some that is not normal like excess of power, temperature and any type of malfunction due to the product or installation. If it sound strange or impossibile, please ask for more details. We are going now to Dallas to present also that technology. Thank you about the opportunity to speak about


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

EnzoB said:


> Thank you to give me the oportunity to tell what we are doing to fix that point. We are going to introduce in the production line more sofisticated instruments (digital of course) that can make accuate valuation of the specs of each amplifier, then to record that specs in one file. It can be helpful also for maintenance and repair. It is in the Studio line series. In the competition series just we do it, but we are going to introduce new products in the market that have technology inside to be connected automatically to big company server, then some speciifcations and also the amplifier story is recorded and registered in the big server and the customer can have access to that data every time he want. To be more clear that amplifiers are stable connected to that server and give the data to it any time happen some that is not normal like excess of power, temperature and any type of malfunction due to the product or installation. If it sound strange or impossibile, please ask for more details. We are going now to Dallas to present also that technology. Thank you about the opportunity to speak about


Nice, if you guys end up having an article, whitepaper, video on that topic come back and post it.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

GMCtrk said:


> How do Zapco's current high end offerings compare to the old C2K amps? Last Zapco's I owned were the c2ks...


there are many many years of difference....today many parts have much better performances and also we improved a lot our engineering.....just one data: C2K amps have S/N lower than 100 dB (A), now we go over 100 sB (A) with some Sudio series amplifiers and we go over 110 in the competition line. and 10 or more dB of difference in the S/N are a lot.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

GreatLaBroski said:


> Nice, if you guys end up having an article, whitepaper, video on that topic come back and post it.


sure the matter is still not public, then we are going to make private conferences (the first one was in Rome, June 8th, 2018) with arund 100 Italian Deaelers and European Distributor attending it). Second one will be in Dallas in August. Product working will be presented at the next CES only. The first public sheet will be for that forum. Give me time to prepare some that is appropriate.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Red Saber said:


> I doubt they label it CEA. Most “good” brands don’t bother.


Zapco dont label CEA, despite using standard CEA


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

MrGreen83 said:


> This whole “debacle” makes me want to send my Z150.6SP to get tested...and I kinda wanna see a test of the AP amp too....wonder if they’re all underrated... and who would care if they found out they were (enough to change them out)....hmm...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I promise answer to each Zapco customer need about, please give me two hours and you will have test report of the your amplifier......I dont need serial number because you for sure have one model of the first production


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

EnzoB said:


> I promise answer to each Zapco customer need about, please give me two hours and you will have test report of the your amplifier......I dont need serial number because you for sure have one model of the first production


sorry for the dealy the answer will arrive in the next hours, but now I can give you only one data ST-500XM II (the cheaper of the mono digital amplifier of the ST-X line) is declared 200/300/500 watt in 4/2/1 ohm and we measured 297/460/552 in one pcs here yesterday. then in 4 and 2 ohm the real power is around 50% more than rated........


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

EnzoB said:


> each amplifier of the ST-X line have dfferences from rated power and effective power. average is 10% more than rated, but some can be also 20 or 30% more, if you tell me what amplifier you have and the serial number i can give you the effective power average of that production


ST-1500XM 
sn:1400352


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Enzo I think the hard part to swallow is your highly recommended 4SQ struggling to meet specs. And as I pointed out, the LX 150.4 will never meet rated at it’s posted THD.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

EnzoB said:


> I promise answer to each Zapco customer need about, please give me two hours and you will have test report of the your amplifier......I dont need serial number because you for sure have one model of the first production


*ST-4X P 

ST-1000XM II*

Thank you Enzo!


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Ugh, my amps are mounted and don't feel like pulling them to check sn. They exceed my power needs so all is good. Maybe when minidsp sends the revised board to replace the recalled board on my 8x12 I'll pull the amps.


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

He said he didn’t need serial number but everyone is posting their serial number 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

MrGreen83 said:


> He said he didn’t need serial number but everyone is posting their serial number
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He asked me to post mine.


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

MrGreen83 said:


> He said he didn’t need serial number but everyone is posting their serial number
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If the serial number isn't used in this, what on earth are we checking? 

Is this a product line average number? A specific number to each amp? Or is this an average over a production run of a certain model?


Edit: Out of curiosity I'll post mine up in a bit. I bought the ST 204D SQ without seeing any actual specs, just the spec for the BT version.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

He did ask for a serial number.



EnzoB said:


> each amplifier of the ST-X line have dfferences from rated power and effective power. average is 10% more than rated, but some can be also 20 or 30% more, if you tell me what amplifier you have *and the serial number* i can give you the effective power average of that production


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## willis36 (Apr 12, 2013)

ST-4X-SQ, SN 1700838


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

I feel there is a con going on. If he knows what your amps did then he also knows they never did rated to begin with.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Red Saber said:


> I feel there is a con going on. If he knows what your amps did then he also knows they never did rated to begin with.


You may be right, but I'm curious what he says.

I'm also willing to send mine off for testing to see if his numbers are legit, I have no plans to use it in the foreseeable future.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

LumbermanSVO said:


> ST-1500XM
> sn:1400352


series 1400000: rated power 550/850/1500 measured on 1400151: 654/1020/1534


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Red Saber said:


> I feel there is a con going on. If he knows what your amps did then he also knows they never did rated to begin with.


My initial thoughts too. So, if it's an exact number for each serial, why not do birthsheets as standard then? 

And if it's an average number from a batch or run of amps, then it's a bit of a wishy washy figure, could have snuck in some really good examples to pump the numbers up haha


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

OK my two are as follows, seeing as this is a happening thing

ST 204D SQ
1700674

ST 1350XM II
1600496


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Red Saber said:


> I feel there is a con going on. If he knows what your amps did then he also knows they never did rated to begin with.


No, we dont know, what each single amplifier did. We have record only about prototype an samples tested randomly after production. 
In production each single product have different specs due to part's tolerances. (In production is important that the different values registered are in the minimum and maximum range fixed from engineers, but not the exact data of each product). The power is also the data that change more because proportional to the square of the voltage. So each single amplifier have different values and an different power.
Now we are testing again in the our laboratories (are not the same of the factory) to make double check about data registered at that time and to confirm it. The only problem is today to find products of the same production series or also about discontinued products. Then we find one model and make measurement about it. That models will remain in the our laboratories, together the other samples, to qualify the new test made now. It is what we are doing now.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Minibull said:


> OK my two are as follows, seeing as this is a happening thing
> 
> ST 204D SQ
> 1700674
> ...


as I said in other posts we do not know data of each amplifier. what we can do today and measure again an amplifier that goes back to the same production lot. This is despite the fact that every product of the same production batch can have different characteristics. Normally the range can be around 10%.
About the ST 204D SQ we measured serial number 1500132 and it have 244/395 watts in 4 and 2 ohm.
About the ST-1350XM II we measure serial number 1600502 and it have 570/948/1370 watts in 4,2 and 1 ohm.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Minibull said:


> My initial thoughts too. So, if it's an exact number for each serial, why not do birthsheets as standard then?
> 
> And if it's an average number from a batch or run of amps, then it's a bit of a wishy washy figure, could have snuck in some really good examples to pump the numbers up haha



we are doing new tests to verify those already done on the series at the time. The data of the time come from the laboratories of the factory, those of today from those of the engineers, so the measurements are more accurate. Finally, the power measurement bench is a critical bench that can easily lead to errors. therefore, also for this reason, I asked to double check


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Gump_Runner said:


> The best thing you can do is fix the issue(s). Discussing the what, when, why and how doesn't do that. The proverbial "when in a hole stop digging" applies here.


I will do asap, thank you


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

MrGreen83 said:


> This whole “debacle” makes me want to send my Z150.6SP to get tested...and I kinda wanna see a test of the AP amp too....wonder if they’re all underrated... and who would care if they found out they were (enough to change them out)....hmm...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hi, I can give you now the test we made now in the Z-150.6 SP serial number 1700202; are 173/295 in 4/2 ohm


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

willis36 said:


> ST-4X-SQ, SN 1700838


ST-4X SQ 1800006 74/108 watt in 4 and 2 ohm. it comes from an different production lot, so, as soon as we find one belonging to your lot we will give also the data of it ..... however they should not be different because no changes have been made to the product in the meantime


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## willis36 (Apr 12, 2013)

EnzoB said:


> ST-4X SQ 1800006 74/108 watt in 4 and 2 ohm. it comes from an different production lot, so, as soon as we find one belonging to your lot we will give also the data of it ..... however they should not be different because no changes have been made to the product in the meantime


Thank you for taking the time to respond with this information.


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

I'm surprised there are people on here bashing a refurbed amp from a company that literally thousands of people on here say are stellar amps, especially for the money. 

Mr Biasella has provided several test results that confirm the amps making advertised power. Are we not to believe him? Should we believe most ST amps are overrated based on 1 refurb test? 

I choose to believe him and the thousands of people that bought these amps are say they sound spectacular for the price until someone can convince me otherwise. It will take more than 1 refurb amp test to do that


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Patriot83 said:


> I'm surprised there are people on here bashing a refurbed amp from a company that literally thousands of people on here say are stellar amps, especially for the money.
> 
> Mr Biasella has provided several test results that confirm the amps making advertised power. Are we not to believe him? Should we believe most ST amps are overrated based on 1 refurb test?
> 
> I choose to believe him and the thousands of people that bought these amps are say they sound spectacular for the price until someone can convince me otherwise. It will take more than 1 refurb amp test to do that


Yup. I think it's silly how people are wanting to remove their studio amps from service, not use them at all and sell for a loss, etc. If the amps do what you need them to do I don't see a problem here. At this point I believe Zapco has been tarnished by an amp that may or may not be legit. And did Red Saber get banned for starting this thread? Looked back and didn't see any rules broken by himHate to say it but Zapco needs to do some serious damage control now. Forum members sending known good NON-REFURBISHED amps in to be tested would be a good start. This way we have random amps from the field being tested and not a possible ringer getting sent in by the manufacturer. If I still had a spare amp laying around I'd send my 5ch in to have tested.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Patriot83 said:


> I'm surprised there are people on here bashing a refurbed amp from a company that literally thousands of people on here say are stellar amps, especially for the money.
> 
> Mr Biasella has provided several test results that confirm the amps making advertised power. Are we not to believe him? Should we believe most ST amps are overrated based on 1 refurb test?
> 
> I choose to believe him and the thousands of people that bought these amps are say they sound spectacular for the price until someone can convince me otherwise. It will take more than 1 refurb amp test to do that


Read back up and see the results on another amp that was not a refurb. It did fine only at 1 ohm and fell below rated at 4 & 2 ohm. Not bad, but regardless it didn't meet rated. 

While I agree that it is somewhat pointless to throw the baby out with the bathwater, just remember that same perspective when other amps or pieces of gear are bashed. People are upset because they didn't expect that from this particular brand with their known reputation. Doesn't matter whether it seems petty to others or not. 

On the flip side, at least they are not being ignored as some companies would do. This is the opportunity to express concerns and talk with a company rep to get an understanding. I'm sure the company will move forward from here


----------



## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

V8toilet said:


> Well, Zapco is in trouble. Will be interesting to see how the 4ch fares. I’d take pause about accepting an amplifier given to him by Zapco for a retest.


I was thinking the SAME thing!


----------



## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

What happened to Red Saber?


----------



## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

DavidRam said:


> What happened to Red Saber?


that is what id like to knows thought he was trying to help clear up what was going on


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Does a Mod care to comment on Red Saber? There are certainly no privacy laws which prevent doing so.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

bigblank69 said:


> Update, got the amps in from Zapco and did a quick off camera test on the 1350XMII (Battery was dying on the camera and my clamp meter needs new batteries)... Anyways this one performed as one would expect. The internals did not look modified, but the amp was tested in China prior. Here is what I got for results
> 
> 1 ohm
> Certified 1x1247W @ 13.78V
> ...


Thank you for providing this data for us!


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

Bayboy said:


> Read back up and see the results on another amp that was not a refurb. It did fine only at 1 ohm and fell below rated at 4 & 2 ohm. Not bad, but regardless it didn't meet rated.
> 
> While I agree that it is somewhat pointless to throw the baby out with the bathwater, just remember that same perspective when other amps or pieces of gear are bashed. People are upset because they didn't expect that from this particular brand with their known reputation. Doesn't matter whether it seems petty to others or not.
> 
> On the flip side, at least they are not being ignored as some companies would do. This is the opportunity to express concerns and talk with a company rep to get an understanding. I'm sure the company will move forward from here



Anyone know of a amp company that has met advertised power on every amp tested including their lowest tier amp lines other than maybe Rockford?Maybe we should all go out and buy Rockford amps. Seems like every Rockford amp I've ever seen tested produced way more than rated. I'm still skeptical of these 2 tests based on all the great reviews from users. And I still don't believe Mr. Biasella is not being truthful with his companies test results. What are the better options for more power and quality than the ST amps for around the same money?


----------



## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Patriot83 said:


> Anyone know of a amp company that has met advertised power on every amp tested including their lowest tier amp lines other than maybe Rockford?Maybe we should all go out and buy Rockford amps. Seems like every Rockford amp I've ever seen tested produced way more than rated. I'm still skeptical of these 2 tests based on all the great reviews from users. And I still don't believe Mr. Biasella is not being truthful with his companies test results. What are the better options for more power and quality than the ST amps for around the same money?


At least with Rockford you know (to a high certainty) what your getting.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

Gump_Runner said:


> At least with Rockford you know (to a high certainty) what your getting.


That's true. I think Rockford's two main philosophies are: make every amp underrated and make them to last a LONG time. I had one a long time ago that still worked great after 14 yrs when I sold my truck. 

I'm still not swayed from Zapco though


----------



## Vividi#12 (Aug 24, 2017)

ST-850 XMII 
Sn 1600368


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

For your more common brands sold in a lot of places, JBL & Alpine has had a good track record for decades. Of course, they aren't held as esoteric as other names, but that's another story.


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

Zapco doesn't seem to be underrating their amps these days like most other companies. Even kenwood and pioneer amps are putting out substantially more than rated power. I just saw a kenwood amp do twice the rated power with good components too. Lots of good amps to choose from. 

Zapco highlights their quality components. I'd still like to see more evidence to lessen my opinion of their ST amps than 2 amp dyno's of one repaired amp and the other making rated power only at 1 ohm. So many people love these amps. That's hard to argue against


----------



## 04quadcab (Dec 31, 2017)

Patriot83 said:


> So many people love these amps. That's hard to argue against


Argument Ad Populum, I will argue against that all day long. There was once a time when that is all we had to go on. Do people trust the brand? What do competition winners use? We had to use proxies for quality, like price. If it is expensive it must be good, right?

But now we have enthusiasts creating content on YouTube, freely disseminating information that was impossible to know 20 years ago. While it is not scientific (you can't test a hypothesis with a sample size of 2), it is good to know that these enthusiasts have mostly confirmed what we believed to be true. Some brands (regardless of price) outright LIE about their power ratings. 

In this instance we caught a reputable brand pushing a product that did not live up to its ratings. Is it a bad amp? I don't think it is. Is it a bad value? I don't think so. Is it a bad company? No, they claim that they are going to revise their power ratings down so that they can remain an honest company with a good reputation. Would I buy one? Yes. 

In my mind we only have one more thing to sort out. How does it sound? Does anybody know how to test for things like signal to noise ratio?


----------



## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

willis36 said:


> Thank you for taking the time to respond with this information.


Hi, we tested an amplifier that come from the same your series: ST-4X SQ 1700008 and its power is 70/97 4/2 ohm.......so less than 2018 series....it is due at the differences that there are in each production, but it dont mean that your amplifier dont have more power that this model we tested. One amplifier can be more, one less. But I want to say now one thing that is important. The power is not the most important specification of the amplifier, probably the less important. Now 10% of power, more or less nobody can listen. To arrive at 3dB more, that is the normal perception of an increase of the power listened in the speakers (3dB it is normally the step have the digital volume control for example), need the double of the power, so 10% of difference is just less than 0.5 dB of acustic pression on the speaker. It is not audible, like is not audible an difference of 20% or 30% on the power. And absolutely dont change the sound quality of the your system. Other parameters like S/N, harmonic distortion and slew rate have much more importance at the point that an good amplifier of 50 watt can sound much better than one of 100 watt. So I dont want that all that noises in the rated power (that any way is important to say that company have to respect it) make the attention of peoples down in the other more important parameters of the amplifiers.


----------



## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Vividi#12 said:


> ST-850 XMII
> Sn 1600368


we dont have an amplifier of the same year now but we have this data in our record: ST-850XM II sn 1600004 425/679/878 (so it are old measurements made in the factory). Asap will find an ST-850XM II of 2016 series, will make new measurements and will send you. txs for your attention


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

04quadcab said:


> Argument Ad Populum, I will argue against that all day long. There was once a time when that is all we had to go on. Do people trust the brand? What do competition winners use? We had to use proxies for quality, like price. If it is expensive it must be good, right?
> 
> But now we have enthusiasts creating content on YouTube, freely disseminating information that was impossible to know 20 years ago. While it is not scientific (you can't test a hypothesis with a sample size of 2), it is good to know that these enthusiasts have mostly confirmed what we believed to be true. Some brands (regardless of price) outright LIE about their power ratings.
> 
> ...


I'm still searching for a user review of the ST amps that say they sound underpowered. Maybe there is someone out there that feels that way but still looking for it. In contrast, all I see are people that are very happy with their ST amps. That's all I'm saying. I'm not a zapco fanboy btw. Just going by what the overwhelming majority of users say about these amps


----------



## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Patriot83 said:


> I'm still searching for a user review of the ST amps that say they sound underpowered. Maybe there is someone out there that feels that way but still looking for it. In contrast, all I see are people that are very happy with their ST amps. That's all I'm saying. I'm not a zapco fanboy btw. Just going by what the overwhelming majority of users say about these amps


Your point is?


----------



## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Bayboy said:


> For your more common brands sold in a lot of places, JBL & Alpine has had a good track record for decades. Of course, they aren't held as esoteric as other names, but that's another story.


we have track record also for decades.....what we are discussing today is the accuracy of that track record made in the factory; so we are checking it with new measurements made today in the engineering laboratory. For what I know nobody have record of the specification of each amplifier produced today, including JBL and Alpine. That because I know their production lines and what are the QC procedures adopted. SO ONE THINGS IS TO HAVE RECORD OF ONE ORE MORE PRODUCTS (CAN ARRIVE AT 10) OF ONE SERIES THAT CAN BE ALSO 1000 OR 10.000 ITEMS, OTHER THING IT TO HAVE RECORD OF ALL THAT 1000 OR 10.000 UNITS. Today we are discussing about production tolerances and differences in the power there are in each product of the same series. I hope that is appreciated what Zapco is doing to make this matter more clear that is possible.


----------



## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Patriot83 said:


> Anyone know of a amp company that has met advertised power on every amp tested including their lowest tier amp lines other than maybe Rockford?Maybe we should all go out and buy Rockford amps. Seems like every Rockford amp I've ever seen tested produced way more than rated. I'm still skeptical of these 2 tests based on all the great reviews from users. And I still don't believe Mr. Biasella is not being truthful with his companies test results. What are the better options for more power and quality than the ST amps for around the same money?


Patriot83 thank you for your appreciation. But I repeat again: ATTENTION IS NOT THE POWER THE MOST IMPORTANT SPECIFICATION OF ONE AMPLIFIER. PROBABLY IS THE LAST. SO IMPORTANT DONT FORGET ALL THE OTHER PARAMETERS THAT HAVE MORE INFLUENCE IN THE AMPLIFIER DINAMIC AND ALSO SOUND QUALITY. SO I WANT TO ADVICE CONSUMERS DONT BUY AMPLIFIER GIVING IMPORTANCE TO THE POWER ONLY: THAT IS A LIGHT THAT CHAOSTS BUT THAT THEN TO THE END IS NOT LIGHTING


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

Gump_Runner said:


> Your point is?


Umm....my point is there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people that have these amps that are completely satisfied with their power output and sound quality vs not. I should also say that I have worked in the electronic manufacturing field and would never discount what a owner or general manager says about their product. They always have insight to what others don't. Like I said, there are lots of good amps. If you don't want to buy Zapco, don't. Lots of people love their Zapco amps!


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Gump_Runner said:


> Does a Mod care to comment on Red Saber? There are certainly no privacy laws which prevent doing so.


Nothing to do with this thread, he's been banned before and keeps coming back with new names. 

A couple of the highlights form his original ban:


> You are a bigger ***** then he is so suck my dick.
> All y’all do is over hype crap. Your mom should have swallowed your little ***** ass. Skinny little ***** boy





> You will see mad if I make it to the next fleet week. I’ll get to you and break you in half.
> And get your circle jerk prick with you. I’ll stick his foot up his own ass.


----------



## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Bayboy said:


> Read back up and see the results on another amp that was not a refurb. It did fine only at 1 ohm and fell below rated at 4 & 2 ohm. Not bad, but regardless it didn't meet rated.
> 
> While I agree that it is somewhat pointless to throw the baby out with the bathwater, just remember that same perspective when other amps or pieces of gear are bashed. People are upset because they didn't expect that from this particular brand with their known reputation. Doesn't matter whether it seems petty to others or not.
> 
> On the flip side, at least they are not being ignored as some companies would do. This is the opportunity to express concerns and talk with a company rep to get an understanding. I'm sure the company will move forward from here


Thank you very much Bayboy. Thank you. We find till now an amplifiers that dont rated the power declarated at 4 and 2 ohm? Despite that we produce more than 60 products the matter that one of it (and also tomorrow we can find an other one) dont match what we wrote, make me not sleeping at all and push me to make all of the company clear about the same matter. And I am thinking also like to do in the future because one matter like that can happen again. Unfortunately I personally cannot check all of the my company and some of my manager or employe o technician can make mistake. I am not angry for that mistake (because everybody can do), I am only worry that every consumer will buy an my product in the future have for sure what the company promised and will not have doubts about. It is the my only thinking now. I manage three company of the APEX Group, but are three days that i am working each day only about this matter and to see like to prevent that similar things dont happen again. Thank you to give me the opportunity to speak about.


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

EnzoB said:


> Patriot83 thank you for your appreciation. But I repeat again: ATTENTION IS NOT THE POWER THE MOST IMPORTANT SPECIFICATION OF ONE AMPLIFIER. PROBABLY IS THE LAST. SO IMPORTANT DONT FORGET ALL THE OTHER PARAMETERS THAT HAVE MORE INFLUENCE IN THE AMPLIFIER DINAMIC AND ALSO SOUND QUALITY. SO I WANT TO ADVICE CONSUMERS DONT BUY AMPLIFIER GIVING IMPORTANCE TO THE POWER ONLY: THAT IS A LIGHT THAT CHAOSTS BUT THAT THEN TO THE END IS NOT LIGHTING


Mr. Biasella, thanks for even being on this site. Who would have ever thought 30 years ago we could have even communicated with the owner of a company such as Zapco. I think most experienced people in car audio understand what you have been saying. I'm no expert and I understand


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Yup. I think it's silly how people are wanting to remove their studio amps from service, not use them at all and sell for a loss, etc. If the amps do what you need them to do I don't see a problem here. At this point I believe Zapco has been tarnished by an amp that may or may not be legit. And did Red Saber get banned for starting this thread? Looked back and didn't see any rules broken by himHate to say it but Zapco needs to do some serious damage control now. Forum members sending known good NON-REFURBISHED amps in to be tested would be a good start. This way we have random amps from the field being tested and not a possible ringer getting sent in by the manufacturer. If I still had a spare amp laying around I'd send my 5ch in to have tested.


Thank you Hllbilly>! It is what I am thinking about too. Right now I want to test all the amplifiers i sold till now....but it is little difficult, then I am thinking to open an service from any of my distributors to test the amplifier of the consumer have doubts and release certificate for that test.....I am thinking also to replace the amplifiers dont meet the performances with new one.....absolutely I want to repair if some not careful enough work was made from some of my company.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Patriot83 said:


> I'm surprised there are people on here bashing a refurbed amp from a company that literally thousands of people on here say are stellar amps, especially for the money.
> 
> Mr Biasella has provided several test results that confirm the amps making advertised power. Are we not to believe him? Should we believe most ST amps are overrated based on 1 refurb test?
> 
> I choose to believe him and the thousands of people that bought these amps are say they sound spectacular for the price until someone can convince me otherwise. It will take more than 1 refurb amp test to do that


Thanks Patriot83


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Patriot83 said:


> Mr. Biasella, thanks for even being on this site. Who would have ever thought 30 years ago we could have even communicated with the owner of a company such as Zapco. I think most experienced people in car audio understand what you have been saying. I'm no expert and I understand


Get a room.


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

Gump_Runner said:


> Get a room.


lol. This thread seems kind of ridiculous based on Zapco's history. Don't you think Gump?


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Patriot83 said:


> lol. This thread seems kind of ridiculous based on Zapco's history. Don't you think Gump?


With straight faced nonsense like this how could you not.
"Right now I want to test all the amplifiers i sold till now....but it is little difficult, then I am thinking to open an service from any of my distributors to test the amplifier of the consumer have doubts and release certificate for that test.....I am thinking also to replace the amplifiers don't meet the performances with new one.....absolutely I want to repair if some not careful enough work was made from some of my company".


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Nothing to do with this thread, he's been banned before and keeps coming back with new names.
> 
> A couple of the highlights form his original ban:


Ha! I think all of those were in response to me 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

EnzoB said:


> Thank you Hllbilly>! It is what I am thinking about too. Right now I want to test all the amplifiers i sold till now....but it is little difficult, then I am thinking to open an service from any of my distributors to test the amplifier of the consumer have doubts and release certificate for that test.....I am thinking also to replace the amplifiers dont meet the performances with new one.....absolutely I want to repair if some not careful enough work was made from some of my company.


Im still a Zapco fanboy. How bout a special DIYMA ST 6 channel SQ? :surprised:


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> Ha! I think all of those were in response to me
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


How is that foot?


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> Ha! I think all of those were in response to me
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


SkizeR, you've heard lots of these amps. What do you think?


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

dcfis said:


> Im still a Zapco fanboy. How bout a special DIYMA ST 6 channel SQ? :surprised:


ST-1700051 115/158 watts (4 and 2 ohm), CEA meausurment


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Patriot83 said:


> SkizeR, you've heard lots of these amps. What do you think?


what i think.. if you think an amp making rated power is what makes it good, then your a ****ing retard. sorry not sorry


----------



## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

dcfis said:


> Im still a Zapco fanboy. How bout a special DIYMA ST 6 channel SQ? :surprised:





Gump_Runner said:


> With straight faced nonsense like this how could you not.
> "Right now I want to test all the amplifiers i sold till now....but it is little difficult, then I am thinking to open an service from any of my distributors to test the amplifier of the consumer have doubts and release certificate for that test.....I am thinking also to replace the amplifiers don't meet the performances with new one.....absolutely I want to repair if some not careful enough work was made from some of my company".


I dont understand Gump. I am not making advertising at the my brand, I want only to give the best services to my customers....


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## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> what i think.. if you think an amp making rated power is what makes it good, then your a ****ing retard. sorry not sorry


Yep. Can we put this one to rest...for now at least


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

EnzoB said:


> I dont understand Gump. I am not making advertising at the my brand, I want only to give the best services to my customers....


Best service would be rectifying the issues with the 1350 by replacing the damn things. It has been said Zap is lowering the ratings because the amp Does Not Do Rated. People purchased something by a certain standard you agree is not met so replace them. This is not complicated. Example: When a car manufacturer institutes a recall they don't feel the need to explain company policy, ethics or build process (wherever that might be) they fix it. Zapco is not going to do that which is not "best service".


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Gump_Runner said:


> Best service would be rectifying the issues with the 1350 by replacing the damn things. It has been said Zap is lowering the ratings because the amp Does Not Do Rated. People purchased something by a certain standard you agree is not met so replace them. This is not complicated. Example: When a car manufacturer institutes a recall they don't feel the need to explain company policy, ethics or build process (wherever that might be) they fix it. Zapco is not going to do that which is not "best service".


You just contradicted yourself in your own example. Car mfgs do NOT replace the car they fix it. Why should Zapco replace the amps?? 

To be fair, nobody is talking about the balance here... A couple amps did not make rated power, BUT a couple amps made well over rated power. Should we crucify Zapco for the former and not consider the latter? Is this really THAT big of an offense? 

Again, I am not defending Zapco here, I'm just saying that drama in this thread is a little intense considering what's being discussed. The president of the company himself is responding to us, shouldn't that speak volumes?

_
Edit: When I was shopping for my Zapco amps, I do remembering noticing an inconsistency in information from Zapco's site to dealer sites, and in my Mazda build thread I even mentioned it. 
If seems that there is a disconnect in information for sure, but I wouldn't be quick to jump to the conclusion that Zapco was knowingly inflating numbers to sell more amps. If so, how do you explain all the cases where their amps come in underrated? _


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## Vividi#12 (Aug 24, 2017)

EnzoB said:


> Vividi#12 said:
> 
> 
> > ST-850 XMII
> ...


Thanks for the answer. That's reassuring to know. If Zapco releases a monoblock with a DSP in it I will still get one.

Any plan to ship future products with a birthsheet , as Alpine does?


----------



## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

Yeah this topic has become pretty crazy since it began a few weeks back.... I have no problem with my amps and probably will keep them for a while. But it has got me thinking about going back to some old school amps I once owned and really liked. Only problem would be rounding up the amps and figuring out the exact configuration.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

DavidRam said:


> You just contradicted yourself in your own example. Car mfgs do NOT replace the car they fix it. Why should Zapco replace the amps??
> 
> To be fair, nobody is talking about the balance here... A couple amps did not make rated power, BUT a couple amps made well over rated power. Should we crucify Zapco for the former and not consider the latter? Is this really THAT big of an offense?
> 
> ...


If your satisfied with your amps why are you increasing your risk of carpel tunnel by responding to people who are not. Zapco could **** in the middle of your dinner table and you would say "Lets Eat"!


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## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

oke:


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Gump_Runner said:


> If *your* satisfied with your amps why are you increasing your risk of carpel tunnel by responding to people who are not. Zapco could **** in the middle of your dinner table and you would say "Lets Eat"!


You're not your...

Besides, your response had nothing to do with what I commented on in your post... Try to keep calm, if at all possible, and please explain why you think Zapco should replace your amp??


----------



## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

DavidRam said:


> You're not your...
> 
> Besides, your response had nothing to do with what I commented on in your post... Try to keep calm, if at all possible, and please explain why you think Zapco should replace your amp??


Response? You need that? If there is a recall on a oems amplifier they replace it i/e they physically address the problem. The point is, Zapco is not going to "recall" ****. They have done nothing of substance nor will they. The reason they should replace the amp is because The Amp Does Not Do What They Said It Would.


----------



## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

Gump_Runner said:


> Response? You need that? If there is a recall on a oems amplifier they replace it i/e they physically address the problem. The point is, Zapco is not going to "recall" ****. They have done nothing of substance nor will they. The reason they should replace the amp is because The Amp Does Not Do What They Said It Would.


true,but usually when a recall is made.it is made because of a product not working properly and being hazardous, in this particular case,i did not see anywhere where the units mentioned are doing any not this, just underperforming, and that being just one particular amp,


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> true,but usually when a recall is made.it is made because of a product not working properly and being hazardous, in this particular case,i did not see anywhere where the units mentioned are doing any not this, just underperforming, and that being just one particular amp,


Well at least the amp is not "hazardous". I feel so much better now. For all you Zapco worshipers be sure to buy the amps that don't sell on craigslist.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Gump_Runner said:


> Response? You need that? If there is a recall on a oems amplifier they replace it i/e they physically address the problem. The point is, Zapco is not going to "recall" ****. They have done nothing of substance nor will they. The reason they should replace the amp is because The Amp Does Not Do What They Said It Would.


Let me help you a little bit with your analogies, so they make some sort of sense...

If you bought a vehicle that had an oem amplifier that made less than the advertised power, the mfg would do absolutely nothing about it, let alone "recall" the amplifier. 

Also, and FYI, recalls are generally issued for things related to safety issues and/or something not meeting federal standards/requirements.

I am not a Zapco worshiper... My last build had Mosconi, Arc Audio and Sundown amps in it and the build before that had Arc Audio and *Skar Audio amps.*


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

DavidRam said:


> Let me help you a little bit with your analogies, so they make some sort of sense...
> 
> If you bought a vehicle that had an oem amplifier that made less than the advertised power, the mfg would do absolutely nothing about it, let alone "recall" the amplifier.
> 
> ...


How many Zap 1350's do you own? I bet none. Spend some cash on the amp being discussed (or any Zapco product) or shut the **** up. Your like a nosy woman that just has to add her irreverent opinion to something which does not concern her whatsoever.


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## 555nova (Apr 12, 2014)

Gump_Runner said:


> How many Zap 1350's do you own? I bet none. Spend some cash on the amp being discussed (or any Zapco product) or shut the **** up. Your like a nosy woman that just has to add her irreverent opinion to something which does not concern her whatsoever.


Lol what gives you the right to keep running your cum dumpster? You have had a hard on for zapco this whole thread.


----------



## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Gump_Runner said:


> How many Zap 1350's do you own? I bet none. Spend some cash on the amp being discussed (or any Zapco product) or *shut the **** up. Your like a nosy woman* that just has to add her irreverent opinion to something which does not concern her whatsoever.


Anything else? 

Guys, it's ok. I don't take any of this personal. Gumpy hates me because I don't like Tesla's fit and finish... Which makes about as much sense as most of his posts.

*
Now can we keep this thread about Zapco, or do you want to continue flinging insults at me??*


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

555nova said:


> Lol what gives you the right to keep running your cum dumpster? You have had a hard on for zapco this whole thread.


As stated I own their products unlike yourself.


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## JamesRC (Sep 18, 2017)

EnzoB said:


> I dont understand Gump. I am not making advertising at the my brand, I want only to give the best services to my customers....


There isn't anything to understand. He's been trolling this thread since the beginning. He probably doesn't understand that English isn't your first language.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

Gump_Runner said:


> Well at least the amp is not "hazardous". I feel so much better now. For all you Zapco worshipers be sure to buy the amps that don't sell on craigslist.


have a good day man,


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

what i do not understand is why the mods here do not put a stop to this guys trolling,,yes i own zapco amps and as of yesterday i got my new zapco dsp,so what,dudue,you need to quit being a cocksucker every time somebody says something you dont agree with, now watch me get banned for calling you a name,


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

So Does the STX4B SQ do rated or not? Thats the only one that matters. 

Also Teslas fit and finish are 70s econobox level ****.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

dcfis said:


> So Does the STX4B SQ do rated or not? Thats the only one that matters.
> 
> Also Teslas fit and finish are 70s econobox level ****.


This thread has seriously degraded. Mods need to step in.


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

ever wonder why so many leave here?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Gump_Runner said:


> Your point is?


Power ain't everything. Like I said earlier in this thread my ST-5Xii was a direct swap with a very well respected class d 6ch amp that did nearly double the power on 4 of the channels and double the power on the sub channels when bridged. The Zapco sounds way better and more open. The well respected 6ch had a rounded off signature that I never could get rid of. Not sure if you were around when the first generation Alpine PDX amps came out around 10 years ago but they were kinda the same way. Put out a ton of power but the heart and soul wasn't there for a lot of people. I ran a PDX5 for a bit and sold it back to my buddy because my Mosconi a/b amp sounded way better.

NOT ALL AMPS SOUND THE SAME AND POWER ISN'T THE DETERMINING FACTOR FOR SQ. *How accurately the amp reproduces the signal is more important than power output.*


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Gump_Runner said:


> How many Zap 1350's do you own? I bet none. Spend some cash on the amp being discussed (or any Zapco product) or shut the **** up. Your like a nosy woman that just has to add her irreverent opinion to something which does not concern her whatsoever.


Come on man, quite being childish. I know you're pissed and probably think Zapco owes you something. It has been explained why the difference in power yours may or may not have vs rated most likely isn't audible. The reasoning is scientifically proven. If you feel like you've been misled put your Zapco amp on Craigslist and buy something else.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> what i think.. if you think an amp making rated power is what makes it good, then your a ****ing retard. sorry not sorry


It's not the only thing that makes it good but it's definitely part of it IMO. If you pay for an amp that says 500watts RMS you would like to get an amp that does that. If it does 450 is it going to make a big difference in output? No but you paid for a 500 watt amp not 450. It would be like buying a car and gas mileage was an important aspect to your purchasing decision. Not the only aspect but an important one. It says 40 but you find out later it's 25. That would be irritating. ESPECIALLY if you think you are focusing on a brand that is praised for its high quality.


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## Gump_Runner (Aug 2, 2014)

GreatLaBroski said:


> This thread has seriously degraded. Mods need to step in.


My bad and should have not got so worked up about it nor should have "trolled" this thread. I did not mean to get so pissed. The same goes for DavidRam nothing personal.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Gump_Runner said:


> Best service would be rectifying the issues with the 1350 by replacing the damn things. It has been said Zap is lowering the ratings because the amp Does Not Do Rated. People purchased something by a certain standard you agree is not met so replace them. This is not complicated. Example: When a car manufacturer institutes a recall they don't feel the need to explain company policy, ethics or build process (wherever that might be) they fix it. Zapco is not going to do that which is not "best service".


That is not correct. I said we are going to do exactly what you said: we will change all the amplifiers dont match the rated power. So we are now going to organize that service. I just spoken with USA new Distributor AURIGIN about.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Gump_Runner said:


> Best service would be rectifying the issues with the 1350 by replacing the damn things. It has been said Zap is lowering the ratings because the amp Does Not Do Rated. People purchased something by a certain standard you agree is not met so replace them. This is not complicated. Example: When a car manufacturer institutes a recall they don't feel the need to explain company policy, ethics or build process (wherever that might be) they fix it. Zapco is not going to do that which is not "best service".





Vividi#12 said:


> Thanks for the answer. That's reassuring to know. If Zapco releases a monoblock with a DSP in it I will still get one.
> 
> Any plan to ship future products with a birthsheet , as Alpine does?


yes we are seriously thinking about that. really we was just thinking it before that test of St-1350XM.....but if we will do it, will be not only for power and some other numbers that dont have strict relation with sound quality, we are looking now for some new about data sheet and quality control that never was done till now....it can be the Zapco correct answer to all that story: to make some measurements connected to SOUND QUALITY. The worse of what happened can be that more people thing that the amplifier power is the most important feature.....I want to say everybody: please dont buy an amplifier for its power, it is nothing, dont mean nothing. SOUND QUALITY IS COMPLETELY AN DIFFERENT MATTER. thank you to give me possibility to say that.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Wow!


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Gump_Runner said:


> Response? You need that? If there is a recall on a oems amplifier they replace it i/e they physically address the problem. The point is, Zapco is not going to "recall" ****. They have done nothing of substance nor will they. The reason they should replace the amp is because The Amp Does Not Do What They Said It Would.


Dear Gump Ranner, you did not read what i said before or probably I was not clear enough. given that everything happened so quickly (in few days) that I tried to understand what was the problem (probably an broken unit?), then I arrived at the conclusion that there were tolerances in the production ....... we can say it is broken? probably it is, I think ..... so we need to repair, but I said we give an new one ... so please send us your amplifier and we will test it, and if it is not performing the rated power, we give you an new one. AURIGIN company from USA is the right address where you have to send your amplifier. USA - AURIGIN, INC.1240 Oak Industrial Lane, Cumming, GA 30041 Atlanta, USA Ph: 833-AURIGIN [email protected]


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

Gump_Runner said:


> Response? You need that? If there is a recall on a oems amplifier they replace it i/e they physically address the problem. The point is, Zapco is not going to "recall" ****. They have done nothing of substance nor will they. The reason they should replace the amp is because The Amp Does Not Do What They Said It Would.





dcfis said:


> So Does the STX4B SQ do rated or not? Thats the only one that matters.
> 
> Also Teslas fit and finish are 70s econobox level ****.


Zapco ST-4X SQ is rated 65/95 and we measured the s/n 170006 that is 70/97 and the s/n 180006 that is 74/108....the power measured are with CEA standard and are the average power of the 4 channels for each impedance, for both the amplifiers the power of each channel is: 70,70,71,70 and 97,97,97,97 for he first one and 73,74,75,75 and 106,106,109,110 for the second one. That differences from one channel to other channel are in the normal production tolerances


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

EnzoB said:


> Zapco ST-4X SQ is rated 65/95 and we measured the s/n 170006 that is 70/97 and the s/n 180006 that is 74/108....the power measured are with CEA standard and are the average power of the 4 channels for each impedance, for both the amplifiers the power of each channel is: 70,70,71,70 and 97,97,97,97 for he first one and 73,74,75,75 and 106,106,109,110 for the second one. That differences from one channel to other channel are in the normal production tolerances


sorry I forgot the most important  : that amplifier have 95,100,95,100 like S/N (A) in the 4 channels........ this data is important more than power because it one of the numbers that is really connected with sound quality.... take note that Z-LX amplifiers have also 95 dB like average of S/N (A). This data is measured at the maximum output power, so it is different than CEA data measured at 1 watt output. 100% of company use our system of measurement also (so not CEA), then we follow to permit comparison of data to the consumers. in the next data sheet we will add also S/N (A) measured with CEA standard, so will give both the measurements.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

EnzoB said:


> Zapco ST-4X SQ is rated 65/95 and we measured the s/n 170006 that is 70/97 and the s/n 180006 that is 74/108....the power measured are with CEA standard and are the average power of the 4 channels for each impedance, for both the amplifiers the power of each channel is: 70,70,71,70 and 97,97,97,97 for he first one and 73,74,75,75 and 106,106,109,110 for the second one. That differences from one channel to other channel are in the normal production tolerances





EnzoB said:


> sorry I forgot the most important  : that amplifier have 95,100,95,100 like S/N (A) in the 4 channels........ this data is important more than power because it one of the numbers that is really connected with sound quality.... take note that Z-LX amplifiers have also 95 dB like average of S/N (A). This data is measured at the maximum output power, so it is different than CEA data measured at 1 watt output. 100% of company use our system of measurement also (so not CEA), then we follow to permit comparison of data to the consumers. in the next data sheet we will add also S/N (A) measured with CEA standard, so will give both the measurements.


sorry I do not want to receive criticism about my statement a little while ago, which was not complete, then I add: 100% of the company make the measurements of the S/N (A) at maximum power, but some of they make also measurements with CEA, so some company (but only few) give both the data. We will make the same. Txs.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

EnzoB said:


> Dear Gump Ranner, you did not read what i said before or probably I was not clear enough. given that everything happened so quickly (in few days) that I tried to understand what was the problem (probably an broken unit?), then I arrived at the conclusion that there were tolerances in the production ....... we can say it is broken? probably it is, I think ..... so we need to repair, but I said we give an new one ... so please send us your amplifier and we will test it, and if it is not performing the rated power, we give you an new one. AURIGIN company from USA is the right address where you have to send your amplifier. USA - AURIGIN, INC.1240 Oak Industrial Lane, Cumming, GA 30041 Atlanta, USA Ph: 833-AURIGIN [email protected]


Gumpy should feel pretty stupid right about now... 

Mr. Enzo, much respect for you and your company... From now on, I will only use Zapco amps in my builds, to the extent possible.
Rarely does a company's president step up to the plate and address an issue like you have... Again, much respect.


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## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

So Enzo you are saying that the average S/N on a Z-LX is 95db? Well I remember quite well that on the website is was stated to have a S/N ratio of 90db...wouldn't you want the higher value to be represented in your specs if this is the case? Reason I point to this out is it shows another example of wrong information being conveyed to the buyer... and in reality it is harmful to your potential sales as well considering higher value represents a more SQ related product. Unless it is a case of using a lower value based on the fact you said it was the average S/N...


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

sq2k1 said:


> So Enzo you are saying that the average S/N on a Z-LX is 95db? Well I remember quite well that on the website is was stated to have a S/N ratio of 90db...wouldn't you want the higher value to be represented in your specs if this is the case? Reason I point to this out is it shows another example of wrong information being conveyed to the buyer... and in reality it is harmful to your potential sales as well considering higher value represents a more SQ related product. Unless it is a case of using a lower value based on the fact you said it was the average S/N...


No, not the case. I made this point about tolerances in production, and how some represent them. 

It may be that the engineers have worked out that with all the worst tolerances and productions flaws, the amp will produce signal at 90db SNR. The wise thing is then to use that as the advertised figure, you know you will usually never put out an amp that doesn't reach that standard. 

It is then a bonus to receive a unit that is producing a better SNR. 

The ****ty thing would be to take the higher end figure and advertise with it, only to result in a number of your amps not reaching that spec, and a customer measuring it and finding it out, as here.

If the company do want to increase that number, then they have to work with their production and improve it and raise the lower limit of their figure. So now it's 100db, but actually produced amps may be better than that again, for the same reason


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

sq2k1 said:


> So Enzo you are saying that the average S/N on a Z-LX is 95db? Well I remember quite well that on the website is was stated to have a S/N ratio of 90db...wouldn't you want the higher value to be represented in your specs if this is the case? Reason I point to this out is it shows another example of wrong information being conveyed to the buyer... and in reality it is harmful to your potential sales as well considering higher value represents a more SQ related product. Unless it is a case of using a lower value based on the fact you said it was the average S/N...


 The declared value must always be lower than the average value. So when we go to measure we normally find higher values. Unfortunately there are tolerances in production for which we must give the lowest value, in fact it is normally called "greater than". However the mean value of the LX is 95 dB of S / N (A) measured at maximum power. LX is a product of 2014. Now we are at 2018. On the S / N ratio we have made important steps in the last 4 years so we have reached 110 dB on the AP series. But the new Z series base, the cheapest, now we have more than 100 dB of S / N, when in the previous one we were above 90 already but not much .... (91/92 average). With regard to production now our best products are built under our control in China, while the previous ones were built in Korea. So in China we have a significantly better production, also because today our best Italian engineer work with me in China. close the factory. When you want we can talk about the good and the bad of what is done in China. Thanks again for giving me the chance to speak here.


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

sq2k1 said:


> So Enzo you are saying that the average S/N on a Z-LX is 95db? Well I remember quite well that on the website is was stated to have a S/N ratio of 90db...wouldn't you want the higher value to be represented in your specs if this is the case? Reason I point to this out is it shows another example of wrong information being conveyed to the buyer... and in reality it is harmful to your potential sales as well considering higher value represents a more SQ related product. Unless it is a case of using a lower value based on the fact you said it was the average S/N...





Minibull said:


> No, not the case. I made this point about tolerances in production, and how some represent them.
> 
> It may be that the engineers have worked out that with all the worst tolerances and productions flaws, the amp will produce signal at 90db SNR. The wise thing is then to use that as the advertised figure, you know you will usually never put out an amp that doesn't reach that standard.
> 
> ...


correct


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## EnzoB (Jul 30, 2016)

EnzoB said:


> The declared value must always be lower than the average value. So when we go to measure we normally find higher values. Unfortunately there are tolerances in production for which we must give the lowest value, in fact it is normally called "greater than". However the mean value of the LX is 95 dB of S / N (A) measured at maximum power. LX is a product of 2014. Now we are at 2018. On the S / N ratio we have made important steps in the last 4 years so we have reached 110 dB on the AP series. But the new Z series base, the cheapest, now we have more than 100 dB of S / N, when in the previous one we were above 90 already but not much .... (91/92 average). With regard to production now our best products are built under our control in China, while the previous ones were built in Korea. So in China we have a significantly better production, also because today our best Italian engineer work with me in China. close the factory. When you want we can talk about the good and the bad of what is done in China. Thanks again for giving me the chance to speak here.


sorry, my is an bad english, average of LX we measure now is 95dB (S/N). today we have two new factors: better value in absolute of S/N but also lower tolerances in the production, due more strict control of production quality and some regulations made in the production, like BIAS, but not only.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Im impressed


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## ParDeus (May 10, 2014)

555nova said:


> Lol what gives you the right to keep running your cum dumpster? You have had a hard on for zapco this whole thread.


My Yellowbullet brotha!!! TOBT keeping the internet honest, 1 troll at a time!

Sincerely,
1gary


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

EnzoB said:


> sq2k1 said:
> 
> 
> > So Enzo you are saying that the average S/N on a Z-LX is 95db? Well I remember quite well that on the website is was stated to have a S/N ratio of 90db...wouldn't you want the higher value to be represented in your specs if this is the case? Reason I point to this out is it shows another example of wrong information being conveyed to the buyer... and in reality it is harmful to your potential sales as well considering higher value represents a more SQ related product. Unless it is a case of using a lower value based on the fact you said it was the average S/N...
> ...


I am a st4x owner and I just want to say thank you for showing up here on this thread and keepin us informed. I was worried but with all I read from you I will be a zapco owner for all my builds going on. If I ever run i to problems with my zapco products who is the best person to contact? I never underestimated the 4x it sounds beautifull in my car. If you ever need a ghinea pig to test new products or get the word out I am available シシシ lol


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

EnzoB said:


> Zapco ST-4X SQ is rated 65/95 and we measured the s/n 170006 that is 70/97 and the s/n 180006 that is 74/108....the power measured are with CEA standard and are the average power of the 4 channels for each impedance, for both the amplifiers the power of each channel is: 70,70,71,70 and 97,97,97,97 for he first one and 73,74,75,75 and 106,106,109,110 for the second one. That differences from one channel to other channel are in the normal production tolerances


Could you check these please:

Serial # 1600339
St-1000xm-ii

Serial # 1500350
St-4xp

Thank you!


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

DavidRam said:


> EnzoB said:
> 
> 
> > Zapco ST-4X SQ is rated 65/95 and we measured the s/n 170006 that is 70/97 and the s/n 180006 that is 74/108....the power measured are with CEA standard and are the average power of the 4 channels for each impedance, for both the amplifiers the power of each channel is: 70,70,71,70 and 97,97,97,97 for he first one and 73,74,75,75 and 106,106,109,110 for the second one. That differences from one channel to other channel are in the normal production tolerances
> ...


They have records of birth sheet?


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

Xx1988 said:


> They have records of birth sheet?


No these are not birth sheet numbers.
They have numbers from amps that were tested for QC purposes off the production line, hence why the serial number is used to get you an amp that was tested reasonably close to your production serial number.

I.e. One I got checked was 6 production numbers away from the tested amp, done in the same production run so it should give a reasonable idea on the numbers.


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

EnzoB said:


> Gump_Runner said:
> 
> 
> > Response? You need that? If there is a recall on a oems amplifier they replace it i/e they physically address the problem. The point is, Zapco is not going to "recall" ****. They have done nothing of substance nor will they. The reason they should replace the amp is because The Amp Does Not Do What They Said It Would.
> ...



Do you have records for st-4x ii 1600926 ?


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

Minibull said:


> Xx1988 said:
> 
> 
> > They have records of birth sheet?
> ...


 Ok cool now I understand


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## 04quadcab (Dec 31, 2017)

If anybody is upset about the power output on their Zapco amp, and are willing to unload it at rock bottom prices, PM me.  

The way the distributor and the president of the company are reacting to the situation seems to be a show of good faith. Sometimes variability in the manufacturing process results in products that don't meet specifications. It is not like we are dealing with BOSS, or something form Maxxsonics or Epsilon that can only do rated power dynamically while running the car full throttle on a 16v electrical system downhill with the AC off and a second car pushing you. We are not dealing with a brand that, as a part of its normal marketing strategy, outright lies about ratings. We have one crappy refurbished amp and one amp that did not make rated power at 4 and 2 ohms. That is not enough to trash Zapco.


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

04quadcab said:


> If anybody is upset about the power output on their Zapco amp, and are willing to unload it at rock bottom prices, PM me. <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> The way the distributor and the president of the company are reacting to the situation seems to be a show of good faith. Sometimes variability in the manufacturing process results in products that don't meet specifications. It is not like we are dealing with BOSS, or something form Maxxsonics or Epsilon that can only do rated power dynamically while running the car full throttle on a 16v electrical system downhill with the AC off and a second car pushing you. We are not dealing with a brand that, as a part of its normal marketing strategy, outright lies about ratings. We have one crappy refurbished amp and one amp that did not make rated power at 4 and 2 ohms. That is not enough to trash Zapco.


Exactly what I have been saying, zapco is and will be quality. Obviously they still want to progress in this industry. They have shown their cards and I stand behind them 100%


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## 04quadcab (Dec 31, 2017)

Minibull said:


> No these are not birth sheet numbers.
> They have numbers from amps that were tested for QC purposes off the production line, hence why the serial number is used to get you an amp that was tested reasonably close to your production serial number.
> 
> I.e. One I got checked was 6 production numbers away from the tested amp, done in the same production run so it should give a reasonable idea on the numbers.


So you are betting that if one amp in a run is good then they all are. I am not saying that does not happen, just that it is not a guarantee. 

If production variability is random that method would do nothing to guarantee that your amp will do rated power. That method only works if there is auto-correlation in the production process (say there is a batch of bad capacitors so 50 amps in a row have a component that is outside of tolerance, or there is a robot on the assembly line that operated outside of normal parameters for 4 hours before it was caught). But, if it is one bad capacitor in a batch or a human that randomly botches a solder joint...


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## Minibull (Apr 16, 2018)

04quadcab said:


> So you are betting that if one amp in a run is good then they all are. I am not saying that does not happen, just that it is not a guarantee.
> 
> If production variability is random that method would do nothing to guarantee that your amp will do rated power. That method only works if there is auto-correlation in the production process (say there is a batch of bad capacitors so 50 amps in a row have a component that is outside of tolerance, or there is a robot on the assembly line that operated outside of normal parameters for 4 hours before it was caught). But, if it is one bad capacitor in a batch or a human that randomly botches a solder joint...


That is not at all what I meant by it, just meaning that if a number is given close to your production one, then it was in the same "batch" or product run, meaning that number has at least some relation to your amp.

If the numbers were spread by years and thousands and thousands of units, doesn't really matter then. 
I didn't say anything was a guarantee of anything else here...we all know you would want to test to get the legit numbers. 
I have faith though that modern manufacturing and processes would control things like this very well though, after all if your tolerances are poor and you have continuous errors in production, you wouldn't be able to ever consistently rate any amp out of your factory, and they would vary so massively for each buyer. 


FWIW, we still really need to see results from all those other Zapco amps and see how they stack up, and then also how they stack up against the numbers provided by Zapco.

The numbers being provided all seem to rate a wee bit over the spec number, which is why the 1350 is such an anomaly on its own and makes sense that it was stuffed up information somewhere regarding its output. Then being rated at 550rms, 570-580 makes more sense and is in line with the others being posted. 

It would then be dumb for them to be pulling the wool over our eyes with these figures provided, as there is a stack of 4 or 5 other amps waiting to be tested, so will easily show them up if they fail. So if these numbers are doodoo (provided they are testing the same way) then they will be up **** creek. That wouldn't be a smart move for any company, and it's why I would favour Zapco at the minute, and their admission they stuffed up the 1350 ratings alone.


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

Minibull said:


> 04quadcab said:
> 
> 
> > So you are betting that if one amp in a run is good then they all are. I am not saying that does not happen, just that it is not a guarantee.
> ...


I heard the st4sq ryan has only did 50 instead of 70 watts, idk how true this is but we have to wait for the video or for him to say something


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Much contradiction on this thread. Crucify a guy for questioning or criticizing the test results while claiming the numbers don't matter because the SQ is there. Meanwhile the throwing up of serial numbers to see if those same amps claimed to sound great are making close to rated?? A bit of hypocrisy. 

If you are satisfied with the sound, it's time to let it go. If Zapco wants to satisfy a few complaints, then that's between the company and amp owner. 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Bayboy said:


> Much contradiction on this thread. Crucify a guy for questioning or criticizing the test results while claiming the numbers don't matter because the SQ is there. Meanwhile the throwing up of serial numbers to see if those same amps claimed to sound great are making close to rated?? A bit of hypocrisy.
> 
> If you are satisfied with the sound, it's time to let it go. If Zapco wants to satisfy a few complaints, then that's between the company and amp owner.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I agree. Enough drama. 
I posted my serial #s out of a mild curiosity, nothing more.


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

Amen.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

I am interested in the zII series and higher end AP series amp dyno testing. I know there are more variables than just power ratings for great amps. I like Zapco and will prob go with them for my build for mids and highs. This thread has been good for Zapco and the customer. Also looks like those will get their amps replaced!!! Awesome


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

ChaseUTB said:


> I am interested in the zII series and higher end AP series amp dyno testing. I know there are more variables than just power ratings for great amps. I like Zapco and will prob go with them for my build for mids and highs. This thread has been good for Zapco and the customer. Also looks like those will get their amps replaced!!! Awesome


Love zapco but its kindve hard to get in contact with them, been trying for weeks. And i cannot call the warehouse because I work 8-6 But I am sure this is a wake up call for them. I really like the idea endo said about lookin up watt and heat performance online whenever you want, that is a crazy cool idea but will it be implemented in affordable amps? Well see


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

ChaseUTB said:


> I am interested in the zII series and higher end AP series amp dyno testing. I know there are more variables than just power ratings for great amps. I like Zapco and will prob go with them for my build for mids and highs. This thread has been good for Zapco and the customer. Also looks like those will get their amps replaced!!! Awesome


Here is a test of the z series. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU_Way9WkSs


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## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

Xx1988, it is not easy to contact them as many can vouch for.... why it is like this I have no idea, but maybe something will be done in the future about it.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Xx1988 said:


> Love zapco but its kindve hard to get in contact with them, been trying for weeks. And i cannot call the warehouse because I work 8-6 But I am sure this is a wake up call for them. I really like the idea endo said about lookin up watt and heat performance online whenever you want, that is a crazy cool idea but will it be implemented in affordable amps? Well see





sq2k1 said:


> Xx1988, it is not easy to contact them as many can vouch for.... why it is like this I have no idea, but maybe something will be done in the future about it.


While this may have been an issue in the past, your best bet now is probably to contact the new distributor for the US, Aurigin. The phone number and support email is on their web site. 

https://www.aurigin.us/


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

rton20s said:


> Xx1988 said:
> 
> 
> > Love zapco but its kindve hard to get in contact with them, been trying for weeks. And i cannot call the warehouse because I work 8-6 But I am sure this is a wake up call for them. I really like the idea endo said about lookin up watt and heat performance online whenever you want, that is a crazy cool idea but will it be implemented in affordable amps? Well see
> ...


I have emailed them there, also the first zapco rep in this post and nothing. .


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

Bayboy said:


> Much contradiction on this thread. Crucify a guy for questioning or criticizing the test results while claiming the numbers don't matter because the SQ is there. Meanwhile the throwing up of serial numbers to see if those same amps claimed to sound great are making close to rated?? A bit of hypocrisy.
> 
> If you are satisfied with the sound, it's time to let it go. If Zapco wants to satisfy a few complaints, then that's between the company and amp owner.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


finally,a voice of reason, thank you


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

Xx1988 said:


> I heard the st4sq ryan has only did 50 instead of 70 watts, idk how true this is but we have to wait for the video or for him to say something


That is not accurate....

I haven't finished testing that amp yet... I started to test, but I ordered a couple new power supplies that allow me to run the voltage up to 16v and got sidetracked.... 

I ran a couple of 40hz tests, but the amp is rated at 1Khz, so I don't want to pass judgement on this amp until testing is complete...

At least this one is not a refurb, so the results should be as expected for anyone who owns one of these....


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

bigblank69 said:


> Xx1988 said:
> 
> 
> > I heard the st4sq ryan has only did 50 instead of 70 watts, idk how true this is but we have to wait for the video or for him to say something
> ...


Thank you Ryan for the response. I knew it had to be a funny rumor, seems alot of people have alot of hate for zapco since the 1st refurb dyno and some people gave up too early. All I can say is thank you ryan for being transparent and down to earth


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

Update on me reaching zapco. I emailed them and received responses from a representative and im guessing an engineer of theirs aswell. They were very helpfull and helped me resolve my problem. Good to know Zapco is there to help the consumer.


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## OZSQL (Mar 16, 2009)

Not that it matters really but when is the dyno of the st4xsq gonna happen? Curiosity is killing me Ryan......


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

OZSQL said:


> Not that it matters really but when is the dyno of the st4xsq gonna happen? Curiosity is killing me Ryan......


It's back on the test bench now, should have it filmed and posted this week. I'd like to get the 1350 video done this week as well.


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## HoopRide (Aug 15, 2018)

bigblank69 said:


> It's back on the test bench now, should have it filmed and posted this week. I'd like to get the 1350 video done this week as well.


Since it’s a full range are you testing 40 and 1k? 
I feel that’s important.


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

HoopRide said:


> Since it’s a full range are you testing 40 and 1k?
> I feel that’s important.


I filmed the 1khz test, but I did test at 40hz off camera a few weeks ago, I will talk about the 40hz results in the video. 

This amp was clearly not designed for subwoofers.


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## HoopRide (Aug 15, 2018)

bigblank69 said:


> I filmed the 1khz test, but I did test at 40hz off camera a few weeks ago, I will talk about the 40hz results in the video.
> 
> This amp was clearly not designed for subwoofers.


Yeah but I’m guessing the 2 channel is just half the 4 channel which can be bridged for a small sub.


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## Reid1980 (Feb 17, 2018)

I had my ST-4XSQ bridged running a 12" subwoofer in a sealed enclosure while I waited for my sub amp to be fixed and it didnt sound too bad. An 8' or 10' ported in a smaller vehicle would do fine. I was actually impressed for what it supposedly put out for power.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

@bigblank69 
Looking forward to the new amp dyno videos.

@Arete 
I am talking about the SP, AP, & Z-II. The Z-II class AB’s are supposed to be like the LX you posted. However there are two lines, ab multi channel, & class d monoblock. I would like to see the class d monoblock b/c I am considering Zapco Z-2kd II or Z-3kd II depending on my budget for my subs. This way both amps would match instead of a Rockford t2500 bdcp & Zapco for mids n highs. Wish the AP had a class d counterpart but that would prob be over my budget lol. 

@rton20s
I contacted Aurigin for pricing and where to purchase over 10 days ago. I did find that my installer “ may “ be able to take care of everything but I never received a call back regarding pricing on amps and the new 8 channel dsp-z8 iv- II ... ( don’t like their naming scheme lol ) I’m supposed to meet with my installer this mon or tues so I’m running out of time b/c I was trying to purchase things in stages to make it easier on my pockets and meet my budget.


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## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

ChaseUTB, I looked at the Z-AP line myself and then came across what you described about trying to match to the z-series d class amps....one of a few reasons I decided to stick with my z150.6lx and z-2kd for the meantime....although I am going a different route soon which will not include zapco in the build as I want to do something different this time around.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

sq2k1 said:


> ChaseUTB, I looked at the Z-AP line myself and then came across what you described about trying to match to the z-series d class amps....one of a few reasons I decided to stick with my z150.6lx and z-2kd for the meantime....although I am going a different route soon which will not include zapco in the build as I want to do something different this time around.


Yeah, I assume the odd chassis coloring scheme is to separate each model level. The various 400.2’s bridged do 1400 @ 4 ohm if you want a class AB for your sub. It’s the only way to 100% match with Zapco amps now that there are multiple chassis. 

I like the black & copper chassis of the AP amps & the new Z8 IV - II DSP that matches. If they could make a copper inlay to put on the Z-II that would be killer or make the Z-II chassis black w/ out the copper inlay, that would be cool with me.


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## HoopRide (Aug 15, 2018)

I would love to see a side by side test and guts of one of the Korean Z mono amps and a mid priced Korean internet brand. I have a feeling they will be to close to call. Except for the price.


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## Taylordd (Aug 19, 2018)

Can't wait.


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## Mad Scientist (Feb 12, 2017)

ChaseUTB said:


> Yeah, I assume the odd chassis coloring scheme is to separate each model level. The various 400.2’s bridged do 1400 @ 4 ohm if you want a class AB for your sub. It’s the only way to 100% match with Zapco amps now that there are multiple chassis.
> 
> I like the black & copper chassis of the AP amps & the new Z8 IV - II DSP that matches. If they could make a copper inlay to put on the Z-II that would be killer or make the Z-II chassis black w/ out the copper inlay, that would be cool with me.


I have (2) AP 150.6's but I haven't selected a bass amp yet and there are 2 reasons for this. The first reason is because I haven't finalized a sub, and the second reason is somewhat due to this thread. Originally, I was going to opt for the Z-3KDII and have it black anodized (like the AP's) to make it match. However, if you want to have it black anodized like the AP's, then you'd also need to have the end plates of amp anodized. The problem with this is Zapco's printing that's done on the end plates of the amp. Prior to black anodizing, you have to remove all contaminates from the part being anodized, and this means removing Zapco's factory printing as well. You could still go ahead and do it, but it's not going to look like it came from Zapco when you're finished. I reached out to John over at Zapco to see if they'll do it for me, but based off his response, it sounds like I'm on my own. 

As for the copper plate on top of the amp, it's another challenge to have a dummy decorative plated added to the Z-3KD II to make it match the AP's, but not impossible. A machine shop can do this for you, or a laser engraver can do it as well. It's a lot of additional work and cost, but not impossible. 

At the end of the day, I may forego the whole matching amps idea, and just get a 4000.1 from MMats instead.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

bigblank69 said:


> I filmed the 1khz test, but I did test at 40hz off camera a few weeks ago, I will talk about the 40hz results in the video.
> 
> This amp was clearly not designed for subwoofers.


well this here just saved me 300 dollars than, thank you for doing this work, now i need to find an amp with this similar power in this price range


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## Reid1980 (Feb 17, 2018)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> bigblank69 said:
> 
> 
> > I filmed the 1khz test, but I did test at 40hz off camera a few weeks ago, I will talk about the 40hz results in the video.
> ...



Just making sure you realize that he's talking about the ST4XSQ class a/b amp.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

bigblank69 said:


> I filmed the 1khz test, but I did test at 40hz off camera a few weeks ago, I will talk about the 40hz results in the video.
> 
> This amp was clearly not designed for subwoofers.


clearly not? Click bait much? I'm fine with you trolling for clicks to your YouTube Channel, but i'm going to call you out for it too. It was "clearly" irresponsible for you to post a video trashing the Zapco 1350 that was a use/refurbed amp. And now you are posting a tease for another Zapco amp saying its "clearly" not a sub amp, which only leads one to believe that again there is a problem with a Zapco amp. There was no problem with that amp and it would work fine as a sub amp.

I just want people to know what you are about, and i feel that goes contrary to this forum. JMO.


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## Xx1988 (Jun 25, 2018)

miniSQ said:


> bigblank69 said:
> 
> 
> > I filmed the 1khz test, but I did test at 40hz off camera a few weeks ago, I will talk about the 40hz results in the video.
> ...


Hes talking about the st4sq, and what clickbait??? We were practically begging him to dyno these. Ryan is definitely one person who knows his **** when it comes to amps. Havent you seen his videos? He practically can look at the guts and guess what it will do. What it actually does is up to the people who designed it


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Xx1988 said:


> Hes talking about the st4sq, and what clickbait??? We were practically begging him to dyno these. Ryan is definitely one person who knows his **** when it comes to amps. Havent you seen his videos? He practically can look at the guts and guess what it will do. What it actually does is up to the people who designed it


i've seen a few, but i find the zapco 1350 to be one that he never should have done, and i didn't say a word. But then the whole " the SQ amp clearly isn't a subwoofer amp" ( clickbait )..just rubbed me the wrong way. I don't care if he wants to report on a negative about any amp, but his negative on the 130 was irrelevent because it i was a repaired amp. And his comment about the SQ not being an amp to be used on a sub was pointless.


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

Exactly right. Is anyone looking at these for subwoofer duty to begin with?


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

miniSQ said:


> i've seen a few, but i find the zapco 1350 to be one that he never should have done, and i didn't say a word. But then the whole " the SQ amp clearly isn't a subwoofer amp" ( clickbait )..just rubbed me the wrong way. I don't care if he wants to report on a negative about any amp, but his negative on the 130 was irrelevent because it i was a repaired amp. And his comment about the SQ not being an amp to be used on a sub was pointless.


I think it's unfair that you're assuming bad intent here. This is a guy who has spent ~$8k+ on a setup to dyno test amplifiers. That's a service to the community. If you haven't shot and edited videos before, both are large jobs. He's putting a lot of time, money, and energy into these videos.

My interpretation of the situation was different; he was saying that the amplifier was not designed for subwoofer use. Since he tested them at 40hz and 1000hz. That seems to indicate to me that it isn't a fan of 40hz tones vs 1000hz tones (aka it missed the mark versus rated power at 1% THD). I think you got that same message.

I'm trying to dissect what about that pissed you off so badly. Was it that he didn't just post the detailed results outright via text, versus waiting for his dyno release on the channel? Is that why it was "clickbait"?

If so, again remember this is someone who's invested a lot of time and money into test equipment, sourcing amps, actually performing the tests, filming, editing, uploading, and talking on these forums. I think that's a good community service. If he wants to wait to spill the beans on the whole of the results until he posts them on his channel I think that's entirely fair. With all the time and effort invested, I think he deserves to earn a few views by the community on his videos. I see this as "behind the scenes preview" information, and his videos are the "actual release".


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## willis36 (Apr 12, 2013)

miniSQ said:


> i've seen a few, but i find the zapco 1350 to be one that he never should have done, and i didn't say a word. But then the whole " the SQ amp clearly isn't a subwoofer amp" ( clickbait )..just rubbed me the wrong way. I don't care if he wants to report on a negative about any amp, but his negative on the 130 was irrelevent because it i was a repaired amp. And his comment about the SQ not being an amp to be used on a sub was pointless.


Have you not watched the video on the st4sq? He gives it the "budget gem" rating and talks about how good it sounds with his test speakers. The test also clearly points out that it does rated power. Says nothing bad about this amp at all.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

willis36 said:


> Have you not watched the video on the st4sq? He gives it the "budget gem" rating and talks about how good it sounds with his test speakers. The test also clearly points out that it does rated power. Says nothing bad about this amp at all.


and thats my point...the amp does everything Zapco says it will, including bridged mode 4ohm.

But Ryan stated here "amp is clearly not designed for subwoofer use". Which is again IM MY OPINION..clickbait.

But i never said i was pissed off about it, i could honestly care less, it just rubbed me the wrong way and i commented on it. Am i not entitled to my opinion? I'm done with this thread.


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## EmptyKim (Jun 17, 2010)

miniSQ said:


> and thats my point...the amp does everything Zapco says it will, including bridged mode 4ohm.
> 
> But Ryan stated here "amp is clearly not designed for subwoofer use". Which is again IM MY OPINION..clickbait.
> 
> But i never said i was pissed off about it, i could honestly care less, it just rubbed me the wrong way and i commented on it. Am i not entitled to my opinion? I'm done with this thread.


No low pass filter on the front channels. No subsonic filters at all. Amp performs better at 1khz dyno than 40hz. His opinion is that it is clearly not designed for subwoofer duty. I think that's a fair opinion. I think you're opinion is a fair opinion too.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

Reid1980 said:


> Just making sure you realize that he's talking about the ST4XSQ class a/b amp.


i thought he was talking about the 1350 because of him saying it is not subwoofer amp worthy, reading comprehension>me


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## JamesRC (Sep 18, 2017)

Guys, what is the difference between certified and uncertified on the amp dyno?


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

EmptyKim said:


> No low pass filter on the front channels. No subsonic filters at all. Amp performs better at 1khz dyno than 40hz. His opinion is that it is clearly not designed for subwoofer duty. I think that's a fair opinion. I think you're opinion is a fair opinion too.


That was exactly my point, I had no intention of a clickbait there... Just my opinion I don't think Zapco designed this amp for someone to use a subwoofer on... It lacks LPF on the front channels and has a lesser output at 40hz, In addition to no subsonic filter. At just about 14.3V I got 4x59W @ 4ohms, and I got 83Wx4 Certified @ 2 ohms @ 14.18V... Personally I think if someone whats to use this in a 2.1 set up... They would be better off getting a ST-2X SQ and and adding a Subwoofer amp and probably even save a few bucks. On my Tower speakers it did have a good bass response in Full Range, but it again I think it would struggle on a dedicated Subwoofer... That's my opinion.


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

JamesRC said:


> Guys, what is the difference between certified and uncertified on the amp dyno?


From what I understand, the certified run is to 1.0% distortion and uncertified runs go to clipping.


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

bigblank69 said:


> That was exactly my point, I had no intention of a clickbait there... Just my opinion I don't think Zapco designed this amp for someone to use a subwoofer on... It lacks LPF on the front channels and has a lesser output at 40hz, In addition to no subsonic filter. At just about 14.3V I got 4x59W @ 4ohms, and I got 83Wx4 Certified @ 2 ohms @ 14.18V... Personally I think if someone whats to use this in a 2.1 set up... They would be better off getting a ST-2X SQ and and adding a Subwoofer amp and probably even save a few bucks. On my Tower speakers it did have a good bass response in Full Range, but it again I think it would struggle on a dedicated Subwoofer... That's my opinion.


I appreciate your opinion on this amp and completely agree. This is clearly an amp designed for components not subs.

And huge kudos to the test you do and the service it provides to us enthusiasts and consumers.


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

metanium said:


> From what I understand, the certified run is to 1.0% distortion and uncertified runs go to clipping.


That is correct.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

As one who has experience editing videos, I can emphasize with bigblank69 (AKA Ryan) that it is a lot of work and buying all those amps just to test has got to be expensive. I will agree with miniSQ though that buying a refurbished amp might not have been fair, but I think bigblank69 knows that now. 

bigblank69, love what you do man and thank you for investing your time and money in it. I hope you make enough money back to make it worth it.


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## bigblank69 (Jul 24, 2016)

V8toilet said:


> As one who has experience editing videos, I can emphasize with bigblank69 (AKA Ryan) that it is a lot of work and buying all those amps just to test has got to be expensive. I will agree with miniSQ though that buying a refurbished amp might not have been fair, but I think bigblank69 knows that now.
> 
> bigblank69, love what you do man and thank you for investing your time and money in it. I hope you make enough money back to make it worth it.


Honestly I didn't think twice about it being a refurb at the time because Atrend was the distributor... I have had great luck with Skar Refurbs and other refurbs so I didn't think it would be an issue... but this one I thought might be a problem as soon as I opened the box. I went forward with the video because again, this was sent DIRECT from the distributor... I only found out afterwards what a mess the whole distributor relationship had become, and how Atrend was shipping these out... 

As for the money aspect, I am just happy to break even... I enjoy this as a hobby testing amps out, and just glad people find it interesting enough to watch.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

*ST-1000XM II* sn/ 1600001 Measured Power 525/828/1095 watts 4ohm/2ohm/1ohm

_(Rated Power @ 1Ω: 1 x 1000 watts, Power @ 2Ω: 1 x 750 watts, Power @ 4Ω: 1 x 500 watts)_



*ST-4X P* sn/1800011 Measured Power 104/141 watts 4ohm/2ohm

_(Rated Power @ 4Ω: 4 x 80 watts, Power @ 2Ω: 4 x 120 watts)_



Thank you Enzo!


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

DavidRam said:


> *ST-1000XM II* sn/ 1600001 Measured Power 525/828/1095 watts 4ohm/2ohm/1ohm
> 
> _(Rated Power @ 1Ω: 1 x 1000 watts, Power @ 2Ω: 1 x 750 watts, Power @ 4Ω: 1 x 500 watts)_
> 
> ...


That's impressive.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

I thought so too...


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## fischman (Jan 3, 2007)

Did he ever post the updated Dyno of the amp he was sent directly from Zapco? I know he teased that it did significantly better than the refurb, but there's still a lot of poor sentiment about this specific amp based on that video and I'm curious to know if it's worth the purchase. I've read some reviews on other amps in the same series(850xm and 1650xm) but without a dyno it's all opinions. 

Josh


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