# Why can't someone open a shop where gear is free?



## geshat00

Maybe I have too much time on my hands, but why can't someone open or run a shop where the equipment is free as long as the shop does the install and the customer pays for all labor and accessories?

I know this is not a direct comparison, but cellphones used to or might be setup similar to this. You pay very little if any depending on the phone, but where they get you is the FEES and line payments.

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## Timelessr1

Instead of the gear being free..i can see a place charging more for the gear and saying installation is free...but then there are legal loop holes where if the install causes an problem they arent held accountable since it was free ;-)


Let me know when you find that shop though ...haha


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## SkizeR

why dont you start it and let us know how it goes



honestly, i cant believe someone is asking this question


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## chefhow

There is VERY little profit margin in most equipment at this point.
Shops make most if not all of their income on installation/accessories and labor.


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## GEM592

geshat00 said:


> Maybe I have too much time on my hands, but why can't someone open or run a shop where the equipment is free as long as the shop does the install and the customer pays for all labor and accessories?
> 
> I know this is not a direct comparison, but cellphones used to or might be setup similar to this. You pay very little if any depending on the phone, but where they get you is the FEES and line payments.


Sure, and think of all the money they would save by only carrying the top of the line in each brand (because that's all anybody will ever want anyhow).


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## seafish

geshat00 said:


> Maybe I have too much time on my hands, but why can't someone open or run a shop where the equipment is free as long as the shop does the install and the customer pays for all labor and accessories?
> 
> I know this is not a direct comparison, but cellphones used to or might be setup similar to this. You pay very little if any depending on the phone, but where they get you is the FEES and line payments.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


Cell phone contract sales are ALL about the monthly fee.

Do the math... $60/month for unlimited service plans for a single phone pays for the phone in just one year at retail prices (which you can be sure the providers do not pay full retail). Any contract terms after that is almost pure profit to the the service provider. 

Are you saying that I should pay a monthly fee to use my stereo in my car for several years ?? In order for the installer/gear provider to make his money back on my $2500 system, it would take a TWO year plan just for them to break even and LONGER for more expensive systems. Why not then just put the purchase price on a credit card then and pay the monthly fee to the CC provider?? Cause it would COST too much, just like your phone does when you lock in a two year or more contract.

In short, methinks you have discovered an incredible new form of capitalism or you have WAY too much time on your hands!! LOL


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## miniSQ

using the cellphone analogy, do you then pay the shop $100 a month to use the system?


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## jtaudioacc

and dumbest post of the year award goes to...


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## rob feature

wut.


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## Iamsecond

Agreed, you have to much time on your hands. 
Also, the reason is..... people already complain about $35 to install a $99.00 head unit they thought was to expensive already. 
my favorite, why is it $50 to install speakers in the door? All your doing is unplugging the old ones and plugging in the new ones. That shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. 
Yeah, start one of these and let us know how it goes. As a matter of fact just make the offer to one of your friends and see what they say.


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## Niebur3

And maybe they should do the same for car repairs!!!!


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## SkizeR

Niebur3 said:


> And maybe they should do the same for car repairs!!!!


why not just make everything free?


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## Niebur3

I think it's cute that the OP thinks his cell phone is free....hahahahahaha.


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## DavidRam

Niebur3 said:


> And maybe they should do the same for car repairs!!!!


And health insurance... 














Lol! I couldn't resist that little fun poke!


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## avhound

Watt did he say ? time to start saving. Lil' here Lil' there. before you know it somethn' newer will be out. :smart:


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## geshat00

OK so a good installer I mean a really good installer is priceless. In my equinox I had a local shop do it almost 7 year or so ago. I brought all my own gear even the install accessories, but I forgot about sound deadening. The installer ended up throwing it in for free. Now he was a guy that owned it was either 5 or 6 locations as it was a chain. He did such a immaculate job the level of detail was astonishing! With the advent of the internet, mainly eBay, alot of shops have closed. That is because yes the factory systems are pretty good, but also because people don't have the discretionary funds they used to have.

I can't see how it would be economically feasible for any shop to stay in business if they all price matched unauthorized dealers. Obviously there would have to rules like say 18yrs or older and credit check the way just like the cellphone analogy they could only get up to a certain total price including the install. You could also base the install on their total. For instance a credit score of 550 or below is considered bad so they wouldn't qualify for anything, but 750 is considered excellent. The person with excellent credit would have the option to go up to maximum. So let's say in a average to middle class suburb we seht a maximum price of $3,000.00 for our top of the line package. That would include a very detailed install with most likely a brand MTX or similar. 
In that same suburb say someone had a credit score of 675 which would be considered a fair score. So basically they just barely qualified which would reflect in the package amount of at $500 which would be a very basic install consisting of a LOC , amplifier, and most likely upgrading the stock speakers to MTX's lowest line of component speakers and their lowest line four channel amplifier.
Someone with a good not great credit score could get a package of up to $1,500.00 which would include MTX's mid-high end line. So that would come LOC or new aftermarket radio, amplifier, component speakers, and a subwoofer.
The location would also play a role in what brands you offer. For instance a person with a fair score might get expensive brand, but there lowest line. It might also cost them just as much as prior suburb location. For that I mean packages would start at $3,000.00.

Another words the customers will still be paying the same amount it's just another way of ****ing with the math just like the cellphone companies do!!!










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## geshat00

Niebur3 said:


> I think it's cute that the OP thinks his cell phone is free....hahahahahaha.


OK so I have been on group plan I have been paying $35 a month for years. Last upgrade (HTC ONE M9) was rated one of the top phones and the list price was (don't quote me on this) $750. I was able to get the phone for $.01. My bill never increased as I still payed the $35 a month and also had always renewed the contract for 2 years. Now to get what would be the a similar top quality cellphone is going to cost me at best $20 a month for the phone. Other than that I am still paying $35 a month as I always did before and would still have renewed contract for 2 years!

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## Iamsecond

Seriously, putting to much time and thought into this. Not going to happen. 
Also discretionary funds not being available? Not sure how old you are but car audio is CHEAP today. I always chuckle when I read about cost of equipment today. A basic CD player used to be $400 when minimum wage was $3.23 per hour in the late 80s. A 1000 watt amp used to be $1000+ for a good one.


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## BrainMach1

The fact that this is a topic says something. An entrepreneur would not post something like on the internet, he would do it. 

The fact no one is proves that it is not feasible. 

I own 2 really small businesses. I love it when people come up to me and say, "You know what you ought to do..."

I'm thinking, if it is a good idea, why aren't you doing it?

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## geshat00

BrainMach1 said:


> The fact that this is a topic says something. An entrepreneur would not post something like on the internet, he would do it.
> 
> The fact no one is proves that it is not feasible.
> 
> I own 2 really small businesses. I love it when people come up to me and say, "You know what you ought to do..."
> 
> I'm thinking, if it is a good idea, why aren't you doing it?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


An entrepreneur also fails many times before they find that golden one. If we were all the same how boring would that be?

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## geshat00

Iamsecond said:


> Seriously, putting to much time and thought into this. Not going to happen.
> Also discretionary funds not being available? Not sure how old you are but car audio is CHEAP today. I always chuckle when I read about cost of equipment today. A basic CD player used to be $400 when minimum wage was $3.23 per hour in the late 80s. A 1000 watt amp used to be $1000+ for a good one.


The longer a consumer product is on the market the cheaper it gets. Yes it's a fact that the last stock market crash really scared and hurt a lot of people financially. Also your minimum wage example is poor as the overall cost of living has gone up since then. Yes there will always be people willing to spend the cash, but that crowd is getting smaller by the minute. 

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## KillerBox

BrainMach1 said:


> The fact that this is a topic says something. An entrepreneur would not post something like on the internet, he would do it.
> 
> The fact no one is proves that it is not feasible.
> 
> I own 2 really small businesses. I love it when people come up to me and say, "You know what you ought to do..."
> 
> I'm thinking, if it is a good idea, why aren't you doing it?


This reminds me of an office manger we used to have. Her suggestion to me about construction workers unexcused absentees was "if they miss one day we should give them off that day and the next day with pay because obviously they had something they really needed to do"

My response to her "find me a customer that will pay us for that and I will be the first person to try that system out because I have plenty of stuff that needs to be done"

P.S. I had to dismiss her about 1 month later because she tried to make her own schedule. Our normal working hours have always been Monday - Friday 7am - 3:30pm. She tried to come in at random times and make her 40 hours. And when I say random times, she tried to come in at 4am and work until noon.

I told her if we are starting our own schedules, then I want to work Monday - Wednesday 8am - 10pm. Needless to say she didn't have a problem and you can't run a successful business with people making their own schedules and etc. so I let her go. 

Now she is working for my competition and I can only hope she is blessing them with her ideas.


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## geshat00

KillerBox said:


> This reminds me of an office manger we used to have. Her suggestion to me about construction workers unexcused absentees was "if they miss one day we should give them off that day and the next day with pay because obviously they had something they really needed to do"
> 
> My response to her "find me a customer that will pay us for that and I will be the first person to try that system out because I have plenty of stuff that needs to be done"
> 
> P.S. I had to dismiss her about 1 month later because she tried to make her own schedule. Our normal working hours have always been Monday - Friday 7am - 3:30pm. She tried to come in at random times and make her 40 hours. And when I say random times, she tried to come in at 4am and work until noon.
> 
> I told her if we are starting our own schedules, then I want to work Monday - Wednesday 8am - 10pm. Needless to say she didn't have a problem and you can't run a successful business with people making their own schedules and etc. so I let her go.
> 
> Now she is working for my competition and I can only hope she is blessing them with her ideas.


This not like that at all. The point is the customer will still be paying the amount they would have before it's just a different way of presenting the math. What I failed to realize is to compensate for the $20 a month I would be paying for the cellphone they would prorate or lower my amount I would be paying on the actual plan. 
You could tweak each example I gave so that the math works out.
Another example being my parents had water damage and subsequently had to have the wall and the floor repaired. They hired a local veteran and his marketing pitch to them was that Home Depot gives a 10-15% (I forget which) off discount to veterans so he would extend those savings on to my parents. My parents thought he was giving them a better deal. 

Now they did hire him as well because he was a veteran, but do you think he was offering them a discount over the local contractors? 

The answer is NO because even though he offered them a discount on the materials he increased his labor costs so that he was not really offering a discount in the end.

I guess my point is that a good salesman can sell anything, but a great marketing pitch can make the entire business better as a whole.

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## geshat00

I saw a coupon a few years ago in my newspaper where the local country club was offering a free round of golf. However, when you read the fine print it said with purchase of $22.99 hotdog!

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## schmiddr2

What you are really talking about is a shop that only offers package pricing. The shop is not going to ignore the cost of the items being installed, it will just get rolled into the install price, therefore it's just a package deal. Since people choose what they want, they end up with one of out of the thousands of possible combinations of gear and that price plus the install is the package price.


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## BrainMach1

KillerBox said:


> This reminds me of an office manger we used to have. Her suggestion to me about construction workers unexcused absentees was "if they miss one day we should give them off that day and the next day with pay because obviously they had something they really needed to do"
> 
> My response to her "find me a customer that will pay us for that and I will be the first person to try that system out because I have plenty of stuff that needs to be done"
> 
> P.S. I had to dismiss her about 1 month later because she tried to make her own schedule. Our normal working hours have always been Monday - Friday 7am - 3:30pm. She tried to come in at random times and make her 40 hours. And when I say random times, she tried to come in at 4am and work until noon.
> 
> I told her if we are starting our own schedules, then I want to work Monday - Wednesday 8am - 10pm. Needless to say she didn't have a problem and you can't run a successful business with people making their own schedules and etc. so I let her go.
> 
> Now she is working for my competition and I can only hope she is blessing them with her ideas.


  

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## Iamsecond

I figured it out. Lets call it the affordable car audio act. Everyone gets a system. You just have to decide if you want the bronze, silver or gold package. Decide on the payment you can afford which is subsidized by the government. We don't make it mandatory but if someone doesn't want their system they simply pay a fee at the end of the year so the rest of us can upgrade when the feeling hits. Drop the mike baby.


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## rton20s

Seriously? What in the actual...?


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## geshat00

Iamsecond said:


> I figured it out. Lets call it the affordable car audio act. Everyone gets a system. You just have to decide if you want the bronze, silver or gold package. Decide on the payment you can afford which is subsidized by the government. We don't make it mandatory but if someone doesn't want their system they simply pay a fee at the end of the year so the rest of us can upgrade when the feeling hits. Drop the mike baby.


He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones! Why is everyone getting so angry. I like how passionate everyone is though. Also there would not be endless combinations because the packages would be predetermined. Also to the person that would have a shop install it I would imagine they would want everything simplified. You could also control your inventory better because you have everything planned.

I guess I must ask why be penny wise and dollar foolish? Obviously with the amount of shops that have closed the current same old business model is not working! Why nickel and dime everyone? Maybe times have changed?

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## Iamsecond

No one is getting angry. We do have a shop and until you have been in this it's all theory and hypothesis. People are people and that will simply not work. The reason car audio businesses shut down is simple. The days of large systems is by and large gone. People typically want a headunit and some cheap speakers and maybe a cheap amp. People complain about an amp kit costing 65.00. Good grief that's our cost on a good kit. We do very few custom boxes. We sell more attend prefab boxes. But here's the issue. Amazon and fleabay hurt use because the end user can get the boxes at our cost due to distributors selling direct as well. It's not as simple as people believe. The systems on this forum are not a good example of the average system being installed. And another point to make is most people on here are installing their own system and buying as cheaply as possible from all over the internet. 
Protected lines are the shop owners helper but then people want to complain about the markup and lack of internet availablility and question product lines because they are for dealers only. Not complaining but simply helping you to realize the model your proposing is not even feasible in any way.


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## geshat00

Iamsecond said:


> No one is getting angry. We do have a shop and until you have been in this it's all theory and hypothesis. People are people and that will simply not work. The reason car audio businesses shut down is simple. The days of large systems is by and large gone. People typically want a headunit and some cheap speakers and maybe a cheap amp. People complain about an amp kit costing 65.00. Good grief that's our cost on a good kit. We do very few custom boxes. We sell more attend prefab boxes. But here's the issue. Amazon and fleabay hurt use because the end user can get the boxes at our cost due to distributors selling direct as well. It's not as simple as people believe. The systems on this forum are not a good example of the average system being installed. And another point to make is most people on here are installing their own system and buying as cheaply as possible from all over the internet.
> Protected lines are the shop owners helper but then people want to complain about the markup and lack of internet availablility and question product lines because they are for dealers only. Not complaining but simply helping you to realize the model your proposing is not even feasible in any way.


So this business model has been tried in today's current market and if so I am curious to see it...

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## Izay123

geshat00 said:


> He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones! Why is everyone getting so angry. I like how passionate everyone is though. Also there would not be endless combinations because the packages would be predetermined. Also to the person that would have a shop install it I would imagine they would want everything simplified. You could also control your inventory better because you have everything planned.
> 
> I guess I must ask why be penny wise and dollar foolish? Obviously with the amount of shops that have closed the current same old business model is not working! Why nickel and dime everyone? Maybe times have changed?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


Geshat00 I think I catch a little of what you're putting down--I've been in & around the industry since before I started High School--& One thing that has always bugged me is the "advertised price" on let's say an amp sub combo kit--They'd never make it a complete kit--& Ethically, I think that's what should be done. The kits never included Wire, RCAs, deadening, speaker baffles, & Connection to the OEM system Etc--Let alone labor. 

As a result, When I worked on the sales floor as an employee (Before I started Rise Up Sound Design) , I'd internally cringe as I walked the customer through educating them on all the other necessary peripherals, because I knew they'd be likely to get upset that the $399 package had now become $800 or $1,000. It has always struck me as sleazy-& I have a few Ways I work on changing that in my own business now.

God forbid I forgot to pre-quote a wiring harness at the shop I previously worked for--I'd get hell from the bosses if I didn't charge the customer for a $15 part--because the shop's largest profit margins were made on peripherals & labor.


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## geshat00

Izay123 said:


> Geshat00 I think I catch a little of what you're putting down--I've been in & around the industry since before I started High School--& One thing that has always bugged me is the "advertised price" on let's say an amp sub combo kit--They'd never make it a complete kit--& Ethically, I think that's what should be done. The kits never included Wire, RCAs, deadening, speaker baffles, & Connection to the OEM system Etc--Let alone labor.
> 
> As a result, When I worked on the sales floor as an employee (Before I started Rise Up Sound Design) , I'd internally cringe as I walked the customer through educating them on all the other necessary peripherals, because I knew they'd be likely to get upset that the $399 package had now become $800 or $1,000. It has always struck me as sleazy-& I have a few Ways I work on changing that in my own business now.
> 
> God forbid I forgot to pre-quote a wiring harness at the shop I previously worked for--I'd get hell from the bosses if I didn't charge the customer for a $15 part--because the shop's largest profit margins were made on peripherals & labor.


To the average person they are uninformed because as a whole the car audio industry has always treated the average customer like ****. They almost feel like they're going to a new car mechanic meaning they have this preconceived notion that they are getting screwed before they even walk in the door! In essence the car audio industry are the mechanics of sound, but also because the marketing has failed the consumer.

On random websites or magazines you can usually find an add from Alpine or Pioneer. They almost always highlight the improvements of their new products (radios, amplifiers, speakers and subwoofers etc.), but what never do is explain the cost or steps it takes to get the end result. They make it seem it's very easy to do and that those who have trouble are stupid. The biggest example being the latest push with retaining stock radios. They make it seem like it's as easy as plugging in a USB cable. However, we all know how much work and time goes into it. 

What's the most precious item of them all? TIME as time is the one thing you can never get back ( sorry Marty Mcfly and DOC).

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## Iamsecond

I'm sorry, but since when is charging someone money for a product or service treating people bad. I very rarely had anyone install a system in my vehicles except a few times when I couldn't figure out how to fabricate something or I didn't have time. I paid their rate and they did a great job. all mechanics are not dirt bags out to rip people off. 
And with the advent of the internet things got crazy. 
So about the package. With so many products on the market how do you do a set package that makes everyone happy? 
Also to the making people made about fees. So you have an amp-sub combo. The products cost 399.99. Ok fine. If they want cash and carry them there you go. But if they want to have it installed why is it wrong to charge for time and expertise? The amp kits are available and they have a choice as to what they want to spend. Time is time and labor rates apply. But if you advertise the combo kit including amp kit and install people will price shop you and say your trying to rip them off because they can get the amp-sub online for $200 less.


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## chefhow

Niebur3 said:


> I think it's cute that the OP thinks his cell phone is free....hahahahahaha.


RIGHT?!?!?!


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## KillerBox

In my area it seems that all the car stereo shops are making money in four ways:

1.) Systems and electronics in Deep sea fishing boats.
2.) Big Boom systems in big 1970s & 1980s cars with 24" rims.
3.) People wanting a small upgrade (either head unit or speakers) in a late model car.
4.) Bumper light bars and center console subwoofer boxes in 4 wheel drive trucks.

So when I went shopping for someone to install my 7.1 SQ system, I don't think anyone even understood what I wanted and especially not any of the stereo shops that have opened in the past 10 years. My system used Andy's MB as an example but, with a lot more power, one more subwoofer and a larger SUV.

So I ended up going to the oldest stereo shop (1986) in town that the owner is still kinda hands on. At least he understood that I was into SQ but, couldn't understand cutting a dash up to install center channel speakers. And I don't think they have ever installed a DSP. But, his shop and him did an excellent installation job! 


My biggest complaints are:

1.) I kept getting pushed back for any job that walked through the door. I understand making that quick money for a quick install but, I am paying customer too and I didn't ask him to quote me a price. I just left my car and told him to be fair and to not take any shortcuts.
2.) They would do one part of the install say the front doors speakers. Then have to wait on parts to install the head unit. It would have been a better use of time to spend part of the first day researching and ordering everything you think you would need.
3.) They ended up taking 3 months on the install. I think if I wouldn't have rushed them up the last month that I would still be on the back burner.


The funny thing was after I got the system tuned in, I had to bring it back for a small issue of my USB connection. When I went to pick it up, all my amp fans were on and the amps were warm. I found out later that the shop owner and the install guys had been auditioning it. The older guys were impressed and said it sounded like a fine home system. The younger guys just wanted more boom.


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## Porsche

geshat00 said:


> Maybe I have too much time on my hands, but why can't someone open or run a shop where the equipment is free as long as the shop does the install and the customer pays for all labor and accessories?
> 
> I know this is not a direct comparison, but cellphones used to or might be setup similar to this. You pay very little if any depending on the phone, but where they get you is the FEES and line payments.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


heres an idea, work and earn what you have instead of wanting something for nothing. live within your means

bernie lost, get over it


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## Niebur3

I'm liberal and I still can't get on board with this.....hahahahaha.


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## Iamsecond

Wow, lol


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## Izay123

Iamsecond said:


> I'm sorry, but since when is charging someone money for a product or service treating people bad. I very rarely had anyone install a system in my vehicles except a few times when I couldn't figure out how to fabricate something or I didn't have time. I paid their rate and they did a great job. all mechanics are not dirt bags out to rip people off.
> 
> And with the advent of the internet things got crazy.
> 
> So about the package. With so many products on the market how do you do a set package that makes everyone happy?
> 
> Also to the making people made about fees. So you have an amp-sub combo. The products cost 399.99. Ok fine. If they want cash and carry them there you go. But if they want to have it installed why is it wrong to charge for time and expertise? The amp kits are available and they have a choice as to what they want to spend. Time is time and labor rates apply. But if you advertise the combo kit including amp kit and install people will price shop you and say your trying to rip them off because they can get the amp-sub online for $200 less.



I wasn't trying to claim that it's wrong to charge for time & expertise--I just had the distinct feeling that many customers were potentially brought in by a lost leader add on the radio. 

I felt like it was ethically questionable to advertise selected inexpensive items at super low prices without preparing them for the substantial labor & parts charges associated with getting that item functional before they come in. Especially for an item where lengthy install would be required--Like a remote start package for $49.99.



No add would hint at the $300 or more in labor & fees they'd have to caugh up to get what they wanted. That's my issue.

Like I feel like it'd be sleazy to offer 50% off one vehicle tint in an add--& then when the customer comes in, Ask them if they also want the tint installed--because otherwise all they get is 10' of plastic. 

I feel like it's my responsibility to perpetually educate myself on the best industry practices & Products, so that I can be a resource--an advocate even-- to my customers, the same way I'd want other shop owners to treat me.


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## Iamsecond

I hear what your saying but the assumption is that people are ignorant. When people go in for a tint job it's not a cash and carry business. People know this. People also expect to have a charge to get their car fixed or a stereo installed. However they may be shocked to know what it actually costs but they also have the ability to say no and walk away. We live in a free market and people can charge anything they want. The customer is not bound to do business with them. When I go into a business to buy something I am very rarely shocked at the cost of something or the costs associated with it. When I bought my matressss I didn't fall over in shock when they told me there would be a $40 delivery fee. The people everyone are referring to are the people that don't want to pay for things. I would have a problem if someone said I'll install it and give you the I'll afterwards and then hit them, but good grief, people get a quote and most of the time is just standard pricing on what each part costs. This is capitalism. I'm not sure how old the op is or others who are bringing up arguments but I hear this same fareness crap from my son. Put limits on salaries. You should only be able to make so much money. It's not fair some people live on minimum wage and others have three homes. Seriously, where is this crap coming from? Socialism doesn't work. 
Audio shops are there to make money doing something they love. Let them do it. If people don't want to pay then let them leave and go buy stuff on eBay and amazon. But the thing that really gets me is these people who don't want to pay labor will go buy a ton of equipment and when it goes bad or something is messed up they want you, the mean installer who charges to much, who could have probably saved them money by doing it right the first time, to fix it FOR FREE! Can you come look at this, what should I do to make it better. REAllY? Pull the owner and installed away from their customers to help you because you chose to buy stuff 10% cheaper online. 
I have an idea. Just set up a business to do installs for people who bring their own equipment and then learn why this model doesn't work. Especially when they blame you for a faulty product and you have to cover the supposed damage. 
Vent over. Carry on my wayward son, carry on.


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## geshat00

Porsche said:


> heres an idea, work and earn what you have instead of wanting something for nothing. live within your means
> 
> bernie lost, get over it


That was a nice thing to say. You know nothing about my work history and you only know a person based on the very few topics I make. Am I tall skinny? Short and fat? Sorry for the distractions I do have ADD. 

I live in burbs of Massachusetts and there are three car audio shops between my town and the two closest to me. During the boom period before the stock market crash there were nine of them! Also in my town there is no car audio shops at all! 

One of the shop's in the next town over keeps down sizing to the point where there is no more sales floor/showroom. All they have is a garage and when you walk in they have posters on the garage wall of the brands they carry. Again in my area that proves my example of the crash teaching us how to do more with less! 

The young adults today (20's) we're taught a lot differently than even my age group (mid 30's). They have grown up getting any information they need in seconds. They stay in and do not dine at restaurants. They don't need big TVs as they want to watch the content whenever and where ever they want. If we simplify things for them ,like so much of their life already has, they would be more receptive to spending the money.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR

can we please just delete this entire thread.. its actually embarrassing that it even exists


----------



## jtaudioacc

SkizeR said:


> can we please just delete this entire thread.. its actually embarrassing that it even exists


LOL, I just came to unsubscribe.


----------



## rton20s

SkizeR said:


> can we please just delete this entire thread.. its actually embarrassing that it even exists





jtaudioacc said:


> LOL, I just came to unsubscribe.


Now, where is the fun in that? This is a great example for those of us who never get the opportunity to hear this line of thinking the way some installers might.


----------



## GEM592

Please take this thread out back behind the barn and shoot it.


----------



## SHAGGS

I got some new rims for my Jimmy. What shade of pink do you guys think I should paint them?
Is 5 Hello Kitty stickers too many? Not enough?


----------



## Porsche

geshat00 said:


> That was a nice thing to say. You know nothing about my work history and you only know a person based on the very few topics I make. Am I tall skinny? Short and fat? Sorry for the distractions I do have ADD.
> 
> I live in burbs of Massachusetts and there are three car audio shops between my town and the two closest to me. During the boom period before the stock market crash there were nine of them! Also in my town there is no car audio shops at all!
> 
> One of the shop's in the next town over keeps down sizing to the point where there is no more sales floor/showroom. All they have is a garage and when you walk in they have posters on the garage wall of the brands they carry. Again in my area that proves my example of the crash teaching us how to do more with less!
> 
> The young adults today (20's) we're taught a lot differently than even my age group (mid 30's). They have grown up getting any information they need in seconds. They stay in and do not dine at restaurants. They don't need big TVs as they want to watch the content whenever and where ever they want. If we simplify things for them ,like so much of their life already has, they would be more receptive to spending the money.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


how can a shop give the equipment for free and charge for labor/install only? pretty stupid and asinine thought and concept, but hey, what do i know. like i said, earn what you have, it will make you feel better instead of wanting a handout

lets say its an alpine head unit that the shop had to pay $275 for from alpine. you think this deck should be free as long as the shop installs it, correct. what would think they should charge to make the sale and install it


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## Dan750iL

Free equipment and $500/hr labor. Simple.


----------



## SkizeR

but what happens the second you want better equipment? install price goes up? lol


----------



## geshat00

rton20s said:


> Now, where is the fun in that? This is a great example for those of us who never get the opportunity to hear this line of thinking the way some installers might.


Just because you work in the car audio industry doesn't mean you know how to sell OR run the business. For instance if you are doing all the installs ( which I envy because my skills are no where near as good) one might think wouldn't know or have the need to know anything about gross profits, shrink, cost of goods sold etc. Now if you own the business then that is different. 

A lot of people get upset because change is hard to deal with. I not saying I like idea I proposed or the current way OR dislike both. All I'm doing is posing the questions and responding based on playing the devil's advocate. Again there are always pros and cons to just about everything in life.

Also we are talking about sales in the car audio industry so while there's a lot of distractions in this thread I think there's good info hear and can be more. I am more or less looking for specific concrete numbers to show why one is better. Again numbers don't lie however without any concrete information to back up some of the responses one could assume people do.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

geshat00 said:


> Just because you work in the car audio industry doesn't mean you know how to sell OR run the business. For instance if you are doing all the installs ( which I envy because my skills are no where near as good) one might think wouldn't know or have the need to know anything about gross profits, shrink, cost of goods sold etc. Now if you own the business then that is different.
> 
> A lot of people get upset because change is hard to deal with. I not saying I like idea I proposed or the current way OR dislike both. All I'm doing is posing the questions and responding based on playing the devil's advocate. Again there are always pros and cons to just about everything in life.
> 
> Also we are talking about sales in the car audio industry so while there's a lot of distractions in this thread I think there's good info hear and can be more. I am more or less looking for specific concrete numbers to show why one is better. Again numbers don't lie however without any concrete information to back up some of the responses one could assume people do.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


He doesnt work in the industry...

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


----------



## geshat00

Porsche said:


> how can a shop give the equipment for free and charge for labor/install only? pretty stupid and asinine thought and concept, but hey, what do i know. like i said, earn what you have, it will make you feel better instead of wanting a handout
> 
> lets say its an alpine head unit that the shop had to pay $275 for from alpine. you think this deck should be free as long as the shop installs it, correct. what would think they should charge to make the sale and install it


That is not what I said. I said you figure out the math and you make packages (radio or loc, amplifier, speakers etc). The packages would not change otherwise the math would be off. Then you make the install tied into the package. You wouldn't actually lose any money because the math would support it. It is just a more creative way of advertising. 

Think about how many times you hear of a shop closing, but still has a huge inventory. This would be eliminated because you would only need enough for the number of packages being sold. If the manufacturer your carrying requires a minimum quantity you would just order to where the math is fundamentally sound (pun intended).

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


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## geshat00

SkizeR said:


> He doesnt work in the industry...
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


I don't have to as long as the math works out and as long as you have the data (sales per month prior year, sales per year, shrink). I can could be the best installer, but without the math I would have a hard time. Again all I'm saying is if the MATH works!

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


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## Porsche

geshat00 said:


> I don't have to as long as the math works out and as long as you have the data (sales per month prior year, sales per year, shrink). I can could be the best installer, but without the math I would have a hard time. Again all I'm saying is if the MATH works!
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


you really have no clue do you how a business works, let me know how this works out for you


----------



## SkizeR

geshat00 said:


> . Again all I'm saying is if the MATH works!
> Tapatalk


It doesn't 

/thread

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## rton20s

I swear, if he weren't so persistent, I would think he was trolling. 

I mean, no one short of a teenager could actually think that this "business model" would actually work.


----------



## Angrywhopper

This was a funny read. Thanks for the entertainment OP.


----------



## AyOne

I'm trying but I don't see how the packages could work. There's too many different factors for each car that's out there. Not only that, there's too many different needs. What kind of package would the customer who wants all Sinfoni(or any other high priced component) and a full custom fabrication for every speaker location? Not that that's common at all but you would just be tieing your hands behind your back because you'd have to turn everyone away. "Nope sorry, your need(s) doesn't fit into one of our packages".


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## GEM592

I want 12 Focal Utopia 33wx2's just laid in the trunk - that's the way I like it. Customer's choice. Don't need no highs. Thanks for your expertise in the install!


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## GEM592

/thread /thread Please, ... /thread.


----------



## Niebur3

I would think this would come across as a gimmick that would turn most people off. Maybe the OP is susceptible to gimmicks in marketing. Maybe he buys a lot of carpeting (installation is usually free at home depot as an incentive to buy) or something similar. 

I don't know, but saying I'll sell a HU for free as long as you spend X for installation sound like a used car salesman. And what for installation??? So, a $200 head unit has $300 for install but a $1000 head unit has $1100 install?? How would you justify that the higher install cost just because the unit costs more?


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## Grinder

:snacks:


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## jtaudioacc

damn, i think i unsubscribed, then posted, which subscribed me again. was wondering why the hell i was still getting emails. i'll make sure this time.


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## SQLnovice

When I purchased my car, the dealership gave it to me for free. I just have to pay capital one auto financing for driving it. Same with my house, the previous owner just handed over the keys, I never directly paid him a dime. I just have to pay this bank for living in it.
It's all how you look at it. Price would be the same, just the invoice will be different.


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## Iamsecond

geshat00 said:


> It is just a more creative way of advertising.
> 
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


This is the whole thing your fighting against yet it's the very solution you come up with as well. Creative advertising is what got package deals going on the first place. But again, no matter what you do you still have to put a price on each piece. 
I tried an experiment in my small business. I quoted people packages of my product with tax and everything included. Out the door pricing perse. My sales dropped because people were seeing the price and despite me telling them everything was included they said it was to high. So I went back to the normal way of quoting the package and then put on sales tax and finance charge etc and sales kicked up to normal. People will start complaining about the labor cost which is a gimmick in itself when different equipment is being used as skizer and others have said and we are business owners and installers. 
Armchair quarterbacks and coachs seem to have it all figured out but as you say proof is in the pudding. The business model works. As to shops closing down etc you have failed to realize there are other reasons business go under. Some owners don't know how to invest or handle money and taxes etc. I have seen more business close due to this than a lack of business. 
The guy you mentioned going from large store to garage. Do you know why this happened by personally talking to the owner. It could be that he simply wanted to downsize because good installers are hard to find or people just don't want to work and it's easier to go small and do it yourself. I downsized my business for the same reason but I make more money now and less headaches. Skizer just started his business and has some good reviews. Are you saying his business model is flawed because he doesn't have a mega store? What about nick at si or even sundown?


----------



## geshat00

SkizeR said:


> It doesn't
> 
> /thread
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


Show me in actual data why it doesn't or would not work. No one has provided any actual data. Again I am just playing devils advocate. 

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## Iamsecond

There is no data and you know that because no business runs this way. You brought up cell phones but my friend they have all gone to leasing phones and the 2 year contracts with1 cent cell phones are a thing of the past. Speaking of that. Have you noticed how inexpensive cell phone plans are today? The answer is yes. Why? Because they are making you pay a monthly fee for the phone on top of the service. They say 4 lines for 100, but when you call its 4 lines for 100 but each phone is leased at 29 per month on top of that. No busienss runs on hiding the cost of products in labor. The burden of proof lies on you. If your going to make the claim and tell how to do something in academic circles you don't tell everyone to prove you wrong by demanding they provide data. You have to provide hard and real data to support your claims. Prove all of us wrong by naming a real and flourishing business that uses this model. You have thrown out a hypothesis and demand us to provide the data. Doesn't work that way. 
So the burden of proof is with you. Maybe you'll start an economic revolution. 
Better yet, as been stated, you start a business and use this model and prove everyone wrong. When should we expect that to happen?


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## Niebur3

Niebur3 said:


> So, a $200 head unit has $300 for install but a $1000 head unit has $1100 install?? How would you justify that the higher install cost just because the unit costs more? (assuming you are in reality charging $100 for install)





geshat00 said:


> Show me in actual data why it doesn't or would not work. No one has provided any actual data. Again I am just playing devils advocate.


Not hard data, but how do you explain this scenario to a customer that doesn't realize it as being a gimmick?


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## SQLnovice

Iamsecond said:


> There is no data and you know that because no business runs this way. You brought up cell phones but my friend they have all gone to leasing phones and the 2 year contracts with1 cent cell phones are a thing of the past. Speaking of that. Have you noticed how inexpensive cell phone plans are today? The answer is yes. Why? Because they are making you pay a monthly fee for the phone on top of the service. They say 4 lines for 100, but when you call its 4 lines for 100 but each phone is leased at 29 per month on top of that. No busienss runs on hiding the cost of products in labor. The burden of proof lies on you. If your going to make the claim and tell how to do something in academic circles you don't tell everyone to prove you wrong by demanding they provide data. You have to provide hard and real data to support your claims. Prove all of us wrong by naming a real and flourishing business that uses this model. You have thrown out a hypothesis and demand us to provide the data. Doesn't work that way.
> So the burden of proof is with you. Maybe you'll start an economic revolution.
> Better yet, as been stated, you start a business and use this model and prove everyone wrong. When should we expect that to happen?


Yes, the prices for phones are insane. I have a note4 and was thinking about getting the note8, but when I saw the $800 price tag, I was like no way.


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## geshat00

Iamsecond said:


> There is no data and you know that because no business runs this way. You brought up cell phones but my friend they have all gone to leasing phones and the 2 year contracts with1 cent cell phones are a thing of the past. Speaking of that. Have you noticed how inexpensive cell phone plans are today? The answer is yes. Why? Because they are making you pay a monthly fee for the phone on top of the service. They say 4 lines for 100, but when you call its 4 lines for 100 but each phone is leased at 29 per month on top of that. No busienss runs on hiding the cost of products in labor. The burden of proof lies on you. If your going to make the claim and tell how to do something in academic circles you don't tell everyone to prove you wrong by demanding they provide data. You have to provide hard and real data to support your claims. Prove all of us wrong by naming a real and flourishing business that uses this model. You have thrown out a hypothesis and demand us to provide the data. Doesn't work that way.
> So the burden of proof is with you. Maybe you'll start an economic revolution.
> Better yet, as been stated, you start a business and use this model and prove everyone wrong. When should we expect that to happen?


Well there must be data on the traditional current business model? It would also be very easy to try out... You promote the same way you have always have and then you set up just one package (with the math making the package profitable). You leave the package ongoing for a month. Then after that one month you would see whether which one sold better (all things being equal). So if you sold a middle tier Rockford Fosgate subwoofer and amplifier VS a package that consisted of those or similar middle tier products. 

You would ask the installer or installers which they found easier. If a larger shop, you would ask the sales staff which they found easier. Again this is all based on if the math works. You wouldn't create a package knowing you're going to lose money just by offering it.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


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## SQLnovice

How would returns and or exchange works? 

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR

SQLnovice said:


> How would returns and or exchange works?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk


It wouldn't. Nothing about this would work

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## Niebur3

OP needs to either let this idea go or go out there and try it for himself.


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## Grinder

:dead_horse:


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## diy.phil

Should be pay for gear and get free install!!
(That means DIY )


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## Grinder

diy.phil said:


> Should be pay for gear and get free install!!
> (That means DIY )


:rimshot:


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## Manic1!

There use to be a chain in Canada that would sell a head unit and speakers for $149 with a free install plus installation parts cost back in the 90's. Some of the installers could do a install in a Civic in under 20 minutes.


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## geshat00

SQLnovice said:


> How would returns and or exchange works?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk


Just like it is now as you honor and back the products and services you offer. Doesn't seem that hard. Again everything is basically the same you're just doing the marketing different. They would still pay the same they would now except you're requiring them to buy more products and services. The final math comes out exactly the same you are just doing more creative marketing.

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


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## Niebur3

^^^Deception and marketing BS to sell product??? That is what you are advocating for??? 

I'm sorry, but I believe in total honestly when selling something to someone or answering questions. Several members can even attest to me recommending gear I don't carry because it was what I thought was the very best for their install and what they are trying to accomplish. But maybe deceit and marketing BS is the way to go


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## geshat00

Manic1! said:


> There use to be a chain in Canada that would sell a head unit and speakers for $149 with a free install plus installation parts cost back in the 90's. Some of the installers could do a install in a Civic in under 20 minutes.


Yes and also your inventory would be 100% better because you could plan accordingly. Again the first month or two you would need to gather more, but after those one or two months your inventory would be simpler. 

Why would you carry (15) pieces of Rockford Fosgate 6X9's when you maybe only sell (5) pieces a year. Or why would you carry Fiat wiring harnesses when your customer base doesn't own one?

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## geshat00

Niebur3 said:


> ^^^Deception and marketing BS to sell product??? That is what you are advocating for???
> 
> I'm sorry, but I believe in total honestly when selling something to someone or answering questions. Several members can even attest to me recommending gear I don't carry because it was what I thought was the very best for their install and what they are trying to accomplish. But maybe deceit and marketing BS is the way to go


No deficit because inventory would be less! Every busy on the planet uses marketing that at first sounds strange (Superbowl commercials). You ever see some of the insurance advertisements?

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## SQLnovice

geshat00 said:


> Just like it is now as you honor and back the products and services you offer. Doesn't seem that hard. Again everything is basically the same you're just doing the marketing different. They would still pay the same they would now except you're requiring them to buy more products and services. The final math comes out exactly the same you are just doing more creative marketing.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


"They would still pay the same they would now except you're requiring them to buy more products and services."
Buy more products? I taught the products are free? 

Free phone if you signed a 2 year contract. This is no longer available, I think, and this is a good example why this is a bad business model.


Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk


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## Niebur3

geshat00 said:


> No deficit because inventory would be less! Every busy on the planet uses marketing that at first sounds strange (Superbowl commercials). You ever see some of the insurance advertisements?
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


I said deceit, as in "the action or practice of deceiving someone by concealing or misrepresenting the truth."

Let me guess....you buy cars off the monthly payment the salesman tells you??

This whole thread is stupid. The thought is by someone that has ZERO business sense. Let this idea go....please.


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## geshat00

SQLnovice said:


> "They would still pay the same they would now except you're requiring them to buy more products and services."
> Buy more products? I taught the products are free?
> 
> Free phone if you signed a 2 year contract. This is no longer available, I think, and this is a good example why this is a bad business model.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk


No it wasn't bad business because it allowed the cellphone companies to focus on their service. Did you ever see how many fees and new fees they have added over the years? Also the cellphone companies were being paid by the software companies to install their applications (bloatware). Also without great service the device is useless!

Same scenario here, without selling enough services and relying on the hardware you will not stay in business. The internet has just about eliminated all the hardware sales the shops were getting before. 

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


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## diy.phil

I've been thinking too much  It's entirely possible to get free gear and then some! The people in NASCAR, Formula 1 and various sports get free stuff all day! However they have to put so many big stickers all over their cars, jerseys and helmets until they cannot look out the window!


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## avhound

The only way it will ever work Is RTO................ Rent To Own. LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SAVE, READ ,LEARN AND THEN SPEND! 
This is almost fun as Cable Wars.


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## geshat00

avhound said:


> The only way it will ever work Is RTO................ Rent To Own. LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> SAVE, READ ,LEARN AND THEN SPEND!
> This is almost fun as Cable Wars.


Again no data just opinions!

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR

geshat00 said:


> Again no data just opinions!
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


Why dont you go into *detail* and tell us how it WOULD work. I'm in the process of opening a shop as we speak. Convince me to be the first to do this.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

SkizeR said:


> Why dont you go into *detail* and tell us how it WOULD work. I'm in the process of opening a shop as we speak. Convince me to be the first to do this.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


Luckily most of us know you're being sarcastic here.


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## SkizeR

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Luckily most of us know you're being sarcastic here.


Well apparently he thinks its a possible business model. I wanna have my mind changed.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## Iamsecond

Interesting enough, the op has missed things over and over about this model. Again, demanding data that he can not provide to prove the model works. Secondly, as someone stated about returns. If you market as labor and free equipment then you have an issue on a return. The customer gets to keep the equipment because it is free to begin with. You will have to return their money for the install as a return because they are not happy with the install but if the equipment is free you can not legally demand it back and they are not legally required to return something that was free. then the complaints start and a law suit will hit you in the face. Labor is not a tangible commodity that can be taken back and resold. Now you have an actua ethical dilemma. 
Also the whole inventory argument is a nonissue. Anyone who owns a business knows very quickly what does and doesn't sell. We know what to keep and what not to keep and if someone wants something we can have it next day. We do not keep xseries sundown subs on hand because we sell e & sa series all day but the x is for a certain person who wants them. We have sold some but we have them the next day. We keep amp kits because they move regularly. Etc etc. we don't have inventory issues but if we have something that has not moved we offer a discount get out investback and don't keep any around. Very simple. 
There is data for you but you wouldn't know that without owning a business.


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## rton20s

I still can't believe what I am reading. The combination, of ignorance and arrogance is uncanny.


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## Hillbilly SQ

Iamsecond said:


> Interesting enough, the op has missed things over and over about this model. Again, demanding data that he can not provide to prove the model works. Secondly, as someone stated about returns. If you market as labor and free equipment then you have an issue on a return. The customer gets to keep the equipment because it is free to begin with. You will have to return their money for the install as a return because they are not happy with the install but if the equipment is free you can not legally demand it back and they are not legally required to return something that was free. then the complaints start and a law suit will hit you in the face. Labor is not a tangible commodity that can be taken back and resold. Now you have an actua ethical dilemma.
> Also the whole inventory argument is a nonissue. Anyone who owns a business knows very quickly what does and doesn't sell. We know what to keep and what not to keep and if someone wants something we can have it next day. We do not keep xseries sundown subs on hand because we sell e & sa series all day but the x is for a certain person who wants them. We have sold some but we have them the next day. We keep amp kits because they move regularly. Etc etc. we don't have inventory issues but if we have something that has not moved we offer a discount get out investback and don't keep any around. Very simple.
> There is data for you but you wouldn't know that without owning a business.


Yup and yup! This should end the thread right here.


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## Grinder

This thread ought to have been ended with this hilariously fitting response:



Iamsecond said:


> I figured it out. Lets call it the affordable car audio act. Everyone gets a system. You just have to decide if you want the bronze, silver or gold package. Decide on the payment you can afford which is subsidized by the government. We don't make it mandatory but if someone doesn't want their system they simply pay a fee at the end of the year so the rest of us can upgrade when the feeling hits. Drop the mike baby.



...though I commend everyone who (previously/subsequently/repeatedly) patiently and sincerely addressed the OP's silly question.


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## Second Skin

O.P. Sure why not LOL Because all of us businesses just pick our products off the " Free Product Tree" we'll just plant some more of those bad boys in our back yard to stay afloat financially. 

Let us know when you open yours up, We'd love to come get some of your free product.


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## PPI_GUY

Alright, firstly no bank/lender in their right mind would subsidize such a business plan. So, what do you use as start-up capital? I mean you do have to purchase inventory, hire employees and sign a lease for a location. That's in addition to paying insurance, utility bills and any permits that the local municipality requires. Finally, after all that you still have to eat and so does your family. 
So, you'd better be giving lots of gear away and installing it ASAP to recoup your enormous out of pocket expenses. 
The bottom line is many people (not all) can do math and see that they still have to write the check for $xxxx.xx whether you "say" the gear is free and then charge them thousands for the install, or not. Simply saying the gear is free doesn't make it so. All the marketing on the planet won't change that. 

This thread reminds me of those morons on eBay who post a ridiculously low Buy It Now price for their amplifier and then try to charge the buyer 6-7 times that amount in shipping. Not exactly 'bait & switch' but, not far off.


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## geshat00

PPI_GUY said:


> Alright, firstly no bank/lender in their right mind would subsidize such a business plan. So, what do you use as start-up capital? I mean you do have to purchase inventory, hire employees and sign a lease for a location. That's in addition to paying insurance, utility bills and any permits that the local municipality requires. Finally, after all that you still have to eat and so does your family.
> So, you'd better be giving lots of gear away and installing it ASAP to recoup your enormous out of pocket expenses.
> The bottom line is many people (not all) can do math and see that they still have to write the check for $xxxx.xx whether you "say" the gear is free and then charge them thousands for the install, or not. Simply saying the gear is free doesn't make it so. All the marketing on the planet won't change that.
> 
> This thread reminds me of those morons on eBay who post a ridiculously low Buy It Now price for their amplifier and then try to charge the buyer 6-7 times that amount in shipping. Not exactly 'bait & switch' but, not far off.


I never called you a mean name did I? I haven't posted today that much because someone wanted specifics on costs and I am still gathering info. One thing I know can be done is to find out what types of cars most people own in your area (freedom of public information act) that way you won't be wasting money on wiring harnesses and such for vehicles you never do work on. 

Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


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## rton20s

Why did it take me this long to come to the realization that this is the same guy who can't understand why no one makes a 12x50W amp at the $200-300 price point?!

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/5004817-post1.html


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## Timelessr1

Reminds me of this movie ...First Economics in Back to school

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM


Can open the shop in Fantasy Land ;-)


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## SkizeR

rton20s said:


> Why did it take me this long to come to the realization that this is the same guy who can't understand why no one makes a 12x50W amp at the $200-300 price point?!
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/5004817-post1.html


Ahhhhh Well that's certainly enlightening 

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## geshat00

SkizeR said:


> Ahhhhh Well that's certainly enlightening
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


OK sorry for the delay it's been a busy week. I have compiled a spreadsheet for the purpose of this topic. I have uploaded a PDF version just for sake of illustration, but can provide the actual spreadsheet file as well as it contains formulas. I understand it might look a little confusing, but basically the last column shows the amount of profit the shop would make. 

Columns: A, B, C, and D show the each equipment piece and cost. At the lower part of column A shows the total equipment cost. Column E shows each install part and cost with the total on the lower part. Column F show how much to install each part with total in lower part. Column G is just the total of column E +F (what customer would pay). Lastly Column H is just column G (what customer would pay) - lower part column A (total equipment cost).

For this example of a medium/medium high tier system the shop would end up with a profit of $450.00!
View attachment COST BENEFIT BUSINESS MODEL.pdf


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## SkizeR

geshat00 said:


> OK sorry for the delay it's been a busy week. I have compiled a spreadsheet for the purpose of this topic. I have uploaded a PDF version just for sake of illustration, but can provide the actual spreadsheet file as well as it contains formulas. I understand it might look a little confusing, but basically the last column shows the amount of profit the shop would make.
> 
> Columns: A, B, C, and D show the each equipment piece and cost. At the lower part of column A shows the total equipment cost. Column E shows each install part and cost with the total on the lower part. Column F show how much to install each part with total in lower part. Column G is just the total of column E +F (what customer would pay). Lastly Column H is just column G (what customer would pay) - lower part column A (total equipment cost).
> 
> For this example of a medium/medium high tier system the shop would end up with a profit of $450.00!
> View attachment 193369
> 
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


Profit of 450 for installing a mid level system... Lol. Dude you must be high

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## geshat00

SkizeR said:


> Profit of 450 for installing a mid level system... Lol. Dude you must be high
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


High or not the math works!

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## SkizeR

geshat00 said:


> High or not the math works!
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


The math is that no shop would survive on 450 dollars for an install that takes a few days.. Your math does not work. Not even close.

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## geshat00

SkizeR said:


> The math is that no shop would survive on 450 dollars for an install that takes a few days.. Your math does not work. Not even close.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


See that is where you wrong because remember volume will increase so you will be doing more installs. Another idea to move the focus towards the install and less on the equipment would be to offer an extended warranty kind of on the premise the auto industry. You have the extended warranty contingent on them bringing the car in for a "TUNE UP" (pun intended). They bring their car in say every 6 months or so and the shop would go through the car to make sure it is functioning OK. Say we created a list of things the would check like: loose wires, fuse check, EQ settings etc. 

The benefit for the customer is piece of mind knowing that if something stops working it will be replaced hassle free. The benefit for the shop: money spent for extended warranty, money spent every 6 months for "TUNE UP" (say $50), and also word of mouth. Word of mouth is the free advertisements you get when people tell others they know about the shop's outstanding reputation!

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## SkizeR

Or so you assume. Go offer to work in a shop for a week and come back to this thread.

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## Niebur3

Wow.....I want to respond......just wow.

My wife teaches a class on entrepreneurship in high school. The OP would greatly benefit from her class......struggle possibly.....but benefit. 

There is so much lacking in the thought of this as a real business model that it is impossible to even begin with what is wrong.

All I am left with is a quote from Billy Madison......
"Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."


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## geshat00

Niebur3 said:


> Wow.....I want to respond......just wow.
> 
> My wife teaches a class on entrepreneurship in high school. The OP would greatly benefit from her class......struggle possibly.....but benefit.
> 
> There is so much lacking in the thought of this as a real business model that it is impossible to even begin with what is wrong.
> 
> All I am left with is a quote from Billy Madison......
> "Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."


Sorry for your mean spirited remarks, but everyone doubted my concept. I only stayed as long as the math works it can be done. The math works there is nothing else really to say. Most people thought they were better for attacking me when they were just attacking the math.

If you go back and reread the entire thread you'll notice that not once did I ever make derogatory (mean, condescending) remarks about anyone. I was only talking about the math. The reason why businesses fail is because of two reasons: A) afraid of change B) afraid to take risks.

I am not referring to wild uncalculated risks. This is far from that. I am all done posting now I will step aside and let the negativity take over!

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## Grinder

geshat00 said:


> See that is where you wrong because remember volume will increase so you will be doing more installs. Another idea to move the focus towards the install and less on the equipment would be to offer an extended warranty kind of on the premise the auto industry. You have the extended warranty contingent on them bringing the car in for a "TUNE UP" (pun intended). They bring their car in say every 6 months or so and the shop would go through the car to make sure it is functioning OK. Say we created a list of things the would check like: loose wires, fuse check, EQ settings etc.
> 
> The benefit for the customer is piece of mind knowing that if something stops working it will be replaced hassle free. The benefit for the shop: money spent for extended warranty, money spent every 6 months for "TUNE UP" (say $50), and also word of mouth. Word of mouth is the free advertisements you get when people tell others they know about the shop's outstanding reputation!
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


Fundamentally, "there's no free lunch."

Scrupulous businesses earn their outstanding reputations by providing (and standing behind) quality products and services (true peace of mind - for both the proprietor and consumer)...not through sales gimmicks and extended warranties that rely on a "sucker born every minute."


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## SkizeR

Niebur3 said:


> Wow.....I want to respond......just wow.
> 
> My wife teaches a class on entrepreneurship in high school. The OP would greatly benefit from her class......struggle possibly.....but benefit.
> 
> There is so much lacking in the thought of this as a real business model that it is impossible to even begin with what is wrong.
> 
> All I am left with is a quote from Billy Madison......
> "Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."


Funny you quote that. I almost posted the video lol

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## SkizeR

geshat00 said:


> Sorry for your mean spirited remarks, but everyone doubted my concept. I only stayed as long as the math works it can be done. The math works there is nothing else really to say. Most people thought they were better for attacking me when they were just attacking the math.
> 
> If you go back and reread the entire thread you'll notice that not once did I ever make derogatory (mean, condescending) remarks about anyone. I was only talking about the math. The reason why businesses fail is because of two reasons: A) afraid of change B) afraid to take risks.
> 
> I am not referring to wild uncalculated risks. This is far from that. I am all done posting now I will step aside and let the negativity take over!
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


You didnt do the math. You just posted a few things in a spread sheet. You forgot to include how returns would be handled, how the shop would cover more expensive equipment if the customer wanted it/if the job warrsnted it, rent, tools, supplies, employees, etc etc. A mid tier system will take more than a couple days to install. Tell me.. How would a shop that has that kind of overhead stay afloat off of 450 dollar profit over the course of a few days. That's maybe a good employees salary for those few days. What about the rest. 

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## Niebur3

geshat00 said:


> Sorry for your mean spirited remarks, but everyone doubted my concept. I only stayed as long as the math works it can be done. The math works there is nothing else really to say. Most people thought they were better for attacking me when they were just attacking the math.
> 
> If you go back and reread the entire thread you'll notice that not once did I ever make derogatory (mean, condescending) remarks about anyone. I was only talking about the math. The reason why businesses fail is because of two reasons: A) afraid of change B) afraid to take risks.
> 
> I am not referring to wild uncalculated risks. This is far from that. I am all done posting now I will step aside and let the negativity take over!
> 
> Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk


I forgot, we live in a country now where I am supposed to not only applaud your efforts but possible award or even congratulate you for them. What you posted is literally at less than High School level thought on a business idea and a plan to implement said idea. If this is what you presented in my wife's HS class, you would fail. Sorry it this hurts your feelings. Industry experts (not all own shops) are telling you the math doesn't work and you won't listen to them. You presented the math, without even a basic understanding of the cost of doing business. If you are going to present an idea, put some real effort into it and present a detailed business plan.


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## rton20s




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## SQLnovice

OP, I want all audio frog gear (3-way front stage) + 2 12 subs, helix processor, 2 arc 6 channel + 2 arc mono for the subs. Can you give me an estimate for installation and tuning? Also, what's your return policy?


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## Grinder

SkizeR said:


> You didnt do the math. You just posted a few things in a spread sheet. You forgot to include how returns would be handled, how the shop would cover more expensive equipment if the customer wanted it/if the job warrsnted it, rent, tools, supplies, employees, etc etc. A mid tier system will take more than a couple days to install. Tell me.. How would a shop that has that kind of overhead stay afloat off of 450 dollar profit over the course of a few days. That's maybe a good employees salary for those few days. What about the rest.
> 
> Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


What do you mean by "overhead?" :laugh:


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## SkizeR

SQLnovice said:


> OP, I want all audio frog gear (3-way front stage) + 2 12 subs, helix processor, 2 arc 6 channel + 2 arc mono for the subs. Can you give me an estimate for installation and tuning? Also, what's your return policy?


You don't get that. The only stuff this shop can afford to sell(?) Is flea market gear

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## Angrywhopper

OP, the math does not work. 

I am curious about one thing though... how did you come to the magical conclusion that $450 is the "right" amount of profit?


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## Weigel21

$450 profit?! You never factored in pay to the installer, so you're looking at less than half that in terms of your so called profit. Then there's utilities , insurance, etc etc. There's just not enough "profit" to keep the doors open for your business, let alone anything to take home for the owner to feed his family.


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