# 2014 Kia Optima, Project SLLOOOWWWW



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Well, as some are aware, my wife's civic was totaled out last oct. We had actually planned on replacing it with a MB CLA250, but after test driving the Optima Turbo, we cancelled our order for the MB that day. I've gotten permission from my wife to do some special things for this car, even though it will take a while to do it all, but I figured I would start now, as is. 

The car is a Optima SX Turbo, with both the electronics package and the convenience package. Now, we didn't want the upgraded stereo, but I have to say, its better than any other stock stereo I've ever heard. I actually competed in stock class last weekend for Meca, and scored 59.25 with it, with who I would consider to be a critical but fair judge. I also competed it in Rookie Iasca, just to get feedback from more judges. Brian Mitchell judged there, and gave it a 180, and told me it was surprisingly good. I should clarify, this thing is dead stock, except me playing with the stock controls. Bass was set to -7, mid set to +2, and treble to -2. It was faded forward one notch. 

It's the Infinity system. Has an 8", dual voice coil, IB sub. I'm not going to call it free air, since the trunk is pretty much completely sealed from the cabin. The rear speakers are in the doors, and are 6.5" "full ranges". The front doors have 6.5" midbass speakers, which are sealed, but I'm not sure how solid the mounting surface is. And the dash has what seems like a 5" full range center, sealed to the grill, and 2.75" coax left and right, which are run active, and again sealed to the grill.



Right Speaker


Right Speaker Closer


Center Channel


I'll have more in a little after I charge my laptop.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your wife's Civic but am glad to hear that you came out well. Looking forward to hearing what all will be installed into this build.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

so what are your plans for this car? Got pictures of the dash?


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Ooooh, been waiting for this.

Jay


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I actually competed in stock class last weekend for Meca, and scored 59.25 with it, with who I would consider to be a critical but fair judge.



Hey, I think I know that judge. 

Looking forward to the updates.


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

In for this one. I'm guessing since it's a new car and all it won't be as crazy as the Neon, lol.


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## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'll have more in a little after I charge my laptop.


Charged yet? I'm excited to see more


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

SPLEclipse said:


> In for this one. I'm guessing since it's a new car and all it won't be as crazy as the Neon, lol.


Lol, nothing to do with it being new, and everything to do with it being my wifes. 

So, I actually fell asleep while my laptop charged. 

Yesterday I tested sub locations. Doesn't seem that interesting, until I tell you that my wife has said an up front passenger foot well mounted sub would be ok. Well, I dragged my bedroom HT sub out there, a cheap 10" sub with a plate amp. It actually hit peak numbers in the corner of the trunk, but the response was ragged and in rung forever. There was a tiny difference moving it to behind the seat, facing rearwards, but the response was still ragged. Turning the box around so it faced forward, smoothed out the response none, and dropped the peak by 3db almost through the whole range. Putting it in the passenger foot well dropped peak output by another 3db, but smoothed out the response like crazy. It also stopped the ringing.

Trunk Corner Mounted, Green, Front Passenger Foot Well Mounted, Blue


Trunk Corner Mounted Waterfall 1


Front Passenger Foot Well Mounted Waterfall 1


Trunk Corner Mounted Waterfall 2


Front Passenger Foot Well Mounted Waterfall 2


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks for wasting a bunch of that laptop battery helping me out. 

I'm really looking forward to seeing how the Optima build progresses. I will say, that being present for a quick listening comparison of trunk corner loaded sub vs. the passenger foot well sub, I definitely preferred the sound and impact of the up front subwoofer.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

As did I, and my wife. She hated the sound of it in the trunk. Rattles like crazy and just a weird resonance. Up front was much better, and even with the cheapy sub, there was more output than she would use, meaning with the final sub I'll be able to eq in the really low stuff without getting near its limits.

I think the MS-8 will be going up for sale. Rton and I talked about just throwing in a sub and using a processor that would give me the control I needed, and I mentioned that I have a MS-8 just sitting there. But I forgot that there are 10 active channels in the stock system, and only 8 in the MS-8. But that's not the main problem, the main problem is there's no where I could get the signal to the MS-8 from. Like I said, there's 10 active channels, so speaker level is out, and between the head unit and amp/processor is SPDIF. 

Unless, using just the front speaker outputs, and subwoofer out would work? Since it's going to create its on center and rears anyways.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

with the MS8, the less channels you can use to obtain a full range signal, the better. the minimum you should use would be a left, right, and sub.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

So I guess I would need to use the front 7 channels, and the sub. Since they are all crossed over differently.


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## shogi3480 (Jul 21, 2009)

I just picked up a 2013 and I became curious about what I could potentially do. I have a closet full of gear waiting to go, but I was afraid of something like this. I suppose I'll save it for another car. It really doesn't matter to me enough to justify the effort to tie into the factory system from the sounds of this.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

It's probably easier if you dont have the premium system, but most of them do, since it comes with all the other convenience items. We'll likely have the car 10 years, so its worth it for us.


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## shogi3480 (Jul 21, 2009)

My work has me putting 20-25k a year on it, plus my personal driving. I went with a CPO SX with the Infinity system. Its got just under 13k on it, and I'm debating how long I plan on keeping it. I want to move it before the warranty is out on the powertrain, so it will last me 3 years at best. I'm curious how your project will progress. Maybe I'll be inspired.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

sub'd
i can't wait to see the end results


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

shogi3480 said:


> My work has me putting 20-25k a year on it, plus my personal driving. I went with a CPO SX with the Infinity system. Its got just under 13k on it, and I'm debating how long I plan on keeping it. I want to move it before the warranty is out on the powertrain, so it will last me 3 years at best. I'm curious how your project will progress. Maybe I'll be inspired.


Ya, I can see not wanting to mess with it too much. It really does a lot of things well, its just that you can't fix the things it doesn't do well.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Such as? You can do a TON to those cars. Suspension, PCM tuning, exhaust, AUDIO, etc. lol

Jay


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Jay, I think Chris' point is that the OEM Infinity system can't be fixed/tweaked much in its default state. You can only do so much with bass/treble/balance/fader.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

So I wanted to try to get some idea where things were being crossed over. Not perfect, but I made some near field measurements of each speaker location, trying as much as possible to eliminate sound from the other speakers. Only way to get better than this is to disconnect all the other speakers. Eventually, I'll do that.

My main hope was to see if there was something causing the huge hole at 200hz. It seems every speaker in the car has issues with that hole, even when measured nearfield.

Passenger Front Midbass


Passenger Midrange/Tweeter


Center Channel


Rear Drivers Side Midbass


Subwoofer


All Measurements Overlapped


I'll need to go back and do this sometime at night, when its dead quiet, and unplug the other speakers, but for now, it gives me some ideas on why it sounds the way it does.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Out of curiosity, what is your mic setup like?
I have an M-Audio piece that I use with a calibrated mic...but when I first started using it in my last car, I made a cable that I hooked to the speaker output through a voltage divider and fed it directly in to the audio input. You could use a setup like that (tho, you'd have to either go to the amp, or take the speakers out of the car to access the speaker wires) to measure freq response.

If you've ever seen any of Musicar NW's builds they also have a handheld unit that does the same thing.

Just a thought.

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

That would actually be a good idea to get the electrical crossover points, but I don't currently have the equipment to do it. I'm currently using the Dayton Omnimic USB mic.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Ah, OK. Yeah, that wouldn't work. Well, either way, looking forward to progress.

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Honestly looking at everything, I think I need to start with a couple of amps and the ms-8 that in already have. Probably use a pair of pdx's, the 5 channel and 4 channel.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Weird peaks at multiples from 900Hz. High amounts of harmonic distortion?


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Honestly looking at everything, I think I need to start with a couple of amps and the ms-8 that in already have. Probably use a pair of pdx's, the 5 channel and 4 channel.


PM Sent


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Honestly looking at everything, I think I need to start with a couple of amps and the ms-8 that in already have. Probably use a pair of pdx's, the 5 channel and 4 channel.



V9 and F6 stacked that resides under the seat of our minivan.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I don't know how much room is under her seat yet, but if that would work, that would be great, as I could stuff the processor under the other seat, and avoid running anything to the trunk.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I don't know how much room is under her seat yet, but if that would work, that would be great, as I could stuff the processor under the other seat, and avoid running anything to the trunk.



We use a 3Sixty.3 in the van, but the other seat has a lockable storage bin. I could remove it, but I decided to keep it since it comes in handy and I stashed the processor in the spare tire well which is right under the floor in between the middle row and the front seats. It actually kept the runs from the amps to the processor pretty short (hence the extra RCA bundles).


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

papasin said:


> We use a 3Sixty.3 in the van, but the other seat has a lockable storage bin. I could remove it, but I decided to keep it since it comes in handy and I stashed the processor in the spare tire well which is right under the floor in between the middle row and the front seats. It actually kept the runs from the amps to the processor pretty short (hence the extra RCA bundles).


What?! RCAs? In a Papasin build? How pedestrian!


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

rton20s said:


> What?! RCAs? In a Papasin build? How pedestrian!



Lol. The civic and the smart still use RCAs, just not from the source unit. For the van, dumping the RCAs from the HU is still an option (go optical again with an iPad or Bluetooth stream direct to the 3Sixty.3). You know me, I can't stand hiss...and I want zero noise floor.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Honestly looking at everything, I think I need to start with a couple of amps and the ms-8 that in already have. Probably use a pair of pdx's, the 5 channel and 4 channel.


Using the PDX crossovers to split the signal from the MS-8 to the front coax?


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Using the PDX crossovers to split the signal from the MS-8 to the front coax?



The V9 has some good crossover options and capabilities, certainly more advanced than the F4 or the F6.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Hanatsu said:


> Weird peaks at multiples from 900Hz. High amounts of harmonic distortion?


Here's the measurements, in order, front midbass, midrange, center, rear midbass, subwoofer.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Using the PDX crossovers to split the signal from the MS-8 to the front coax?


In order to do that, I'd have to skip the rears. Not sure what I'll do yet, I'll probably play around with all options and see what sounds best.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Hm some kind of T/A issue causing the nulls?

Tapaaatalk!!


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm really not sure anymore. When I first measured, I attributed the null at 210hz as a room mode, as nothing I did changed it. I dont think thats the case anymore though. For instance, on the door speaker measurement, the mic was about an inch from the speaker, with all 4 doors wide open, and the dash speakers all covered with mlv and towels stuffed tightly over that. Yet the nulls are in exactly the same places, leading me to think its caused by the door itself. But, the dash speakers also have the same null, again with doors wide open and ths mic placed about an inch from each speaker. Being that I couldn't effectively block sound from the door speakers, i dont know if the mic was still picking up something from the door speakers or not.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)




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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Sweet. What are you going to use to power it?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Most likely a PDX-V9. I would like to send more power to the midbass/midrange, but since they are a 2 ohm load, I can't bridge it and add an amp for the tweeters.

The sub will be going in the front, in a fiberglass box under the glove box. The response is night and day better in front than in the trunk, and will require much less work to make it sound like I want. The amp and processor will have to go in the trunk, no room under the seats for them, which is too bad. Still, with all speakers up front, I can completely seal off the trunk to further reduce road noise.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Now that is a really sound plan as far as making do with what you have.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Looking forward to hearing it Chris. I like quiet cars too.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I have to try to use every advantage my wife gives me lol, its her car. Very strict and specific build rules for this one. No dash rebuild (but I can remove it for deadening). No head unit change. No kick panel mounted midbasses. 

So, we have the BM under the glove box, TM65's in the doors, and MK tweeters in the sail panels. PDX-V9, and undecided processor at this time. The rest of it will be pulling out all the stops on deadening.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> So, we have the BM under the glove box, TM65's in the doors, and MK tweeters in the sail panels. PDX-V9, and undecided processor at this time. The rest of it will be pulling out all the stops on deadening.


I like it.... I like ALL of it!!! :thumbsup:


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

+1. Solid setup.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

The biggest hitch is the processor. My wife would prefer to use analog inputs, so she can still use the stock volume. But, I don't think any combination of 6 channels will provide a full range signal. So it may be easier to run spdif instead, but that means adding dedicated volume control.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The biggest hitch is the processor. My wife would prefer to use analog inputs, so she can still use the stock volume. But, I don't think any combination of 6 channels will provide a full range signal. So it may be easier to run spdif instead, but that means adding dedicated volume control.



Would spdif come from prior the amp? And would you be able to still retain the stock amp for speaker level out?

If so, you could possibly use a 6to8v8 with spdif, then use analog input for the volume control. Haven't actually used this config, but is theoretically a feature.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I'll have to look into that, spdif would be before the amp, not sure if I can retain the analog output.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

If you are busting into the headunit to grab spdif anyway you could always run an Arduino, turn the stock volume knob output into whatever signal a processor needs. JayinMI may know a little about that 

I of course just recommended an idea that I almost completely abandoned because of the hours of tinkering It would take.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I still plan to come by and check out the test enclosure. This week has been crazy for me though as my son has bronchitis and I've had to stay home with him quite a bit. Probably won't be needing the o-scope anytime soon. 

You might try PMing Jacob if you have questions about the 6to8.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I figured I would end up pming Jay for his thoughts, since he also runs a kia now, and is a ex-neon guy.

Dustin, no worries, the box will be around. Just take care of your son, I get bronchitis at least twice a year, so I know what he's going through. Hope he feels better quickly.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks. I used to get it a couple times a year growing up as well. 

Are you still on vacation or are you back at work? If I wasn't taking my son to the doc this afternoon, I would swing by.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Back at work, although I left early today. Going to try to get the usb microscope working to align the cartridge and prepare the weekends deadening tests.


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## kmagyar (Jan 8, 2015)

I'm hopping onto this thread. Looks like there is more info here than the one you have on the optimaforums. 

I bought a bit10 in hopes of using it. It was my understanding that the bit10 will sum the signals from the factory amp.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I figured I would end up pming Jay for his thoughts, since he also runs a kia now, and is a ex-neon guy.
> 
> Dustin, no worries, the box will be around. Just take care of your son, I get bronchitis at least twice a year, so I know what he's going through. Hope he feels better quickly.


I was actually using the arduino to replicate the volume control on my Audison Bit One. I'm not sure if the factory volume knob is set up the same (I haven't looked into it), but it wouldn't surprise me. Thing is, I felt like (since I'm using analog speaker level ins to the processor now, and have the *option* of doing Optical or digital coaxial ins, that I might need to leave the factory knob functional to keep the input adjustable in to the processor on the analog inputs. May all be a moot point soon, as I am currently working on a tablet install.

Jay


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I keep wavering back and forth between digital in and analog. Doesn't really matter right now as I wait for funds to do everything. Hoping to be able to get the processor by the end of the year, but who knows.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Just realized I never posted this. This is the stock frequency response, taken with the omnimic and REW, using sweeps, mic in the head position, seat all the back. All settings dead flat as they were stock.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Back from the dead. Sort of. There will be some action here in the next couple of weeks, in the form of deadening, mostly bumping this so it's easier to find.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Back from the dead. Sort of. There will be some action here in the next couple of weeks, in the form of deadening, mostly bumping this so it's easier to find.


Awesome, looking to see some updates, last I heard this car, it wasn't bad considering it was bone stock. Can't wait to hear it next.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Back from the dead. Sort of. There will be some action here in the next couple of weeks, in the form of deadening, mostly bumping this so it's easier to find.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I was really stunned to find your build thread in the form of a Kia not a Neon. But I wasn't so stunned to see in two years it is not finished. 

Someday you should stop teasing people with far out ideas and turn them into reality. Start with a 2 way damn it. 

BTW, your prior pics don't load up.


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## strong*I*bumpin (Oct 3, 2005)

Well it does say "SLLOOOWWWW" in the title


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

strong*I*bumpin said:


> Well it does say "SLLOOOWWWW" in the title


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

strong*I*bumpin said:


> Well it does say "SLLOOOWWWW" in the title


Like I said, misleading. "Forever in progress" is more like it. Which is the glass half full way of saying never.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Lol. I actually meant to pm you back George, I'll get that done tomorrow. There's a legit reason it's taking so long, Dustin knows, I'll fill you in via pm.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Lol. I actually meant to pm you back George, I'll get that done tomorrow. There's a legit reason it's taking so long, Dustin knows, I'll fill you in via pm.


No rush, although if I do get to power up the car today for the first time and rattles are super annoying I'll fill your inbox.  I kid I kid.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Here's the important pics George. The individual driver measurements got deleted as I afterwards found out that there was a windows update that was affecting REW, causing the problem at multiples of 900hz.

This is dead stock frequency response from my seated position, smoothed to 1/6, dead stock distortion, dead stock waterfall plot, and the differences between different "bass" settings. There is an anomaly in the waterfall plot somewhere around 1500hz, that's caused by this ridiculous buzzer that reminds you not to run the stereo with the car off.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Ahh. Good stuff. Are you sure you don't have the bass turned to 11? 

The car seems to load up the 40 to 60 range a lot. That said if the stock system extends this well in the 20s then the aftermarket one will do great no matter what. Even small sealed will work. 

The buzzer is hilarious! I think it's an ideal context to teach people how to interpret waterfall plots. I mean look at that!

Is that as loud as the car gets 90hz and up? It's not loud enough to downplay noise for HD plots. You know my typical ramblings about test signal SPL.  Heck not sure you can interpret anything over 90Hz, even the FR without a high enough SPL.

Good find on the Windows update, that would be something I would cry about daily and never find.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I've been meaning to retest, but I haven't as my laptop is dead. I wanted to put a mic stand in there and see if it still measures that high, these tests the mic was clamped by the seat. I'm really not convinced it's doing 110db. It is definitely bloated on the low end though, all 4 stock door speakers seem to be crossed at 50hz with BW filters, and the sub plays to just over 60hz then starts dropping like a rock. 

I generally run it at bass -5, mid +3, high -1.

Plan for now is a SI MKIV up front in the passenger foot well. Already have it. Also have a pair of tweets that I'm going to try. Since this is my wife's car, pure output isn't as high of a priority as with mine, so its going to be more modest. More time will be spent making the thing dead quiet.

Yeah, the buzzer is almost as annoying as the damn thing spitting out my cd's. If it didn't control the HVAC too, the headunit would be ripped out and sold already.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I've been meaning to retest, but I haven't as my laptop is dead. I wanted to put a mic stand in there and see if it still measures that high, these tests the mic was clamped by the seat. I'm really not convinced it's doing 110db. It is definitely bloated on the low end though, all 4 stock door speakers seem to be crossed at 50hz with BW filters, and the sub plays to just over 60hz then starts dropping like a rock.
> 
> I generally run it at bass -5, mid +3, high -1.
> 
> ...



Why not? Cabin gain can easily be 20db worth of output in the low octaves. The tough part is to get 110db from 100hz to 5khz!  

Can't wait to have you audition this push-pull. I think I'm going to leave the car undeadened for a while. It's really easy to do push-pull with the SI subs, I assume they are the flat ones right? They may have too much excursion noise inverted though, that you have to have a free flowing basket for.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I remember the lats in your s2000, when you never told anyone your midbass was unplugged. Probably won't do push-pull in this car, when I get mine I will though. If we stay in out current house, it will be done there too. I'm thinking an attic mounted manifold with four 18"s.

I could see 20db, but this is more like 40db. From what is basically a free air 8" and four 6.5"s in plastic door skins.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I remember the lats in your s2000, when you never told anyone your midbass was unplugged. Probably won't do push-pull in this car, when I get mine I will though. If we stay in out current house, it will be done there too. I'm thinking an attic mounted manifold with four 18"s.
> 
> I could see 20db, but this is more like 40db. From what is basically a free air 8" and four 6.5"s in plastic door skins.


I tested my mom's Hyunday OEM speakers a while back and those OEM drivers are hella sensitive. I could see all five of those drivers pushing 90db in the bass region without cabin gain. Surface area of a 15" with 8mm of stroke should give you that. 

I was thinking one large sub box under the bed with the LATs firing out from under the bed for my bedroom haha. Time to see how much of the vibration can be cancelled in bed, bow chica wow wow.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Lol, I've thought about building a bed frame with push pull as well. Most of the gaming/movies happen in the bedroom, the music happens in the living room.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Lol, I've thought about building a bed frame with push pull as well. Most of the gaming/movies happen in the bedroom, the music happens in the living room.


You shoot movies in the bedroom? epper:


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