# Ultra LV-10



## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

*""""WARNING"""" *​
Mounds of data coming....​

Just so everyone knows right off the bat this is not the way I would like to post this.... everyone live with a PDF !!!!!!


The first data will be from Linear X and is where you will get all T/S data, this will be the most complete. 










The PDF is below.

Next round of data will be a 1 watt test of the LV-10 on Klippel this was done for testing reason but I also wanted to show you what happens when power is changed and what effects it will have on all data.































































































This last bit of data is the power test of Klippel using the LSI method,the driver is put through a batter of test to find it maximums.

Some limits are set and here are some of those limits below:

Bl min Force factor decay allowed at XBl. 82% 
C min Compliance decay allowed at XC. 75%
Zmax Maximum variation of Inductance allowed at XL 10%
d2 Maximum Doppler distortions allowed at X D 10%

*Defaults* Sets the Thresholds to the recommended values. 
The recommended thresholds cause ca. 10% distortions due to the respective parameter.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

We got a good laugh the first time there was data on one of these when it was tested

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-product-reviews/68721-ultra-lv-10-sq-build.html


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

Quite simple really.
We first tested the ultra sub and it got a **** review. **** readings, **** results, and overal looked like a **** sub. No way around it. The entire thing was ****.

Matt found some problems with the KDA, and saw fit to send the unti back to Germany to get fixed.
It has been returned and should be working at 100% of its potential.

I sent him an Ultra LV10 I had in my closet to be tested to see exactly how messed up the unit was before.
A lot of bs was getting thrown around that the sub sucked, that the machine sucked and whatever else.

Running the sub again, under a freshly calibrated machine should tell us something about the first test, and how bad the unit was indeed messed up.

ANT


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

DIYMA said:


> Quite simple really.
> We first tested the ultra sub and it got a **** review. **** readings, **** results, and overal looked like a **** sub. No way around it. The entire thing was ****.
> 
> Matt found some problems with the KDA, and saw fit to send the unti back to Germany to get fixed.
> ...


It didn't test like "****". I never said that. It just didn't test like a $500.00 sub. Under the same "uncalibrated" Klippel, it performed worse than a Dayton RS265HO that cost 1/4 of the price. That's what caused the arguments. 

Interested in seeing the new results. I should send in a Dayton RS265 for comparison again.

I'm still curious what was wrong with the Klippel. With every piece of test equipment I send in for my regular calibration cycles for work, I get a report back of findings, adjustments (if necessary), specs, tolerances and actual measured responses. I'm sure Klippel did the same thing at their lab. So, you should have specifics on what was actually wrong. High output, low output, high output impedance, low output impedance, etc? 

This is important if the results do measure differently for the new LV10 from the old. We can garner what was going on, and apply to all the data I produced, including the data that was paid for.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

In the interest of fairness to a good sub, and to again show how badly the LV will perform, you would very much need to retest the Dayton HO and compare them side by side. 

If one sub is messed up due to testing and another was tested with the same machine, then if one gets better then the other one would too. So we may see that the LV10 is an acceptable sub (if costing under $100 bucks) and we should expect that the HO (costing 125) is still superior. Of course, I am using logic, not audio marketing myths.

So when is the announcement of a quality sub being tested coming out?


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## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

Have you heard the LV in person?


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

basher8621 said:


> Have you heard the LV in person?


If you are asking me - no, I havent. I dont have a dealer anywhere near me, but then again, I dont need to hear it to make a judgment based on independent testing using a known product that has put out consistently solid information that is 100% unbiased - unlike the marketing/sales department. 


If I were looking to spend $500 on a 10" sub it certainly would not be a basic overhung design. I would rather spend my money on a well known solid performer with many positive reviews *on this site alone* than on one that tests worse, was blown by the guy it was given too (though that was probably user error - and it was replaced) and costs 4 times as much.


What would hearing this sub do for me?


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## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

MiniVanMan said:


> It didn't test like "****". I never said that. It just didn't test like a $500.00 sub. Under the same "uncalibrated" Klippel, it performed worse than a Dayton RS265HO that cost 1/4 of the price. That's what caused the arguments.
> 
> Interested in seeing the new results. I should send in a Dayton RS265 for comparison again.
> 
> ...



Someone show me this post!!!! you guys make it sound like it just sucked...

I still do not know what you are talking about....


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

Not that it sucked, that there are better performing subs for less money.


The threads are in the Kippel section, started by MVM.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

At 500 bux, the LV is playing in the w7, GTi, IDmax, TC LMS, arena.

That's a large and competitive arena.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

MiniVanMan said:


> It didn't test like "****". I never said that. It just didn't test like a $500.00 sub. Under the same "uncalibrated" Klippel, it performed worse than a Dayton RS265HO that cost 1/4 of the price. That's what caused the arguments.
> 
> Interested in seeing the new results. I should send in a Dayton RS265 for comparison again.
> 
> ...


Gary, I don't think Ant is targeting your testing methods or results... just yet.
I believe he's actually saying that you got the short end of the stick unfairly. 

I agree with his post, and I think you are essentially echoing his sentiments. New data from a 'recalibrated' machine will be interesting to see and will be useful to compare to the old results.


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

any updates to this?

ANT


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Old 1 Week Ago #1
iDtech
Keeper of the Klippel

Default Ultra LV-10
In this test I wanted to show what can happen from test to test... 

*Anything under a year will be impressive *


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## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

The data is done and has been I did started to post but Ant reminded me about something. I needed to confirm something first.

Then I felt it necessary to burn out a very import resistor that is used in my testing...

I will in the morning I will post all the data that was tested.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

iDtech said:


> The data is done and has been I did started to post but Ant reminded me about something. I needed to confirm something first.
> 
> Then I felt it necessary to burn out a very import resistor that is used in my testing...
> 
> I will in the morning I will post all the data that was tested.


So your previous data is invalid?


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## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

azngotskills said:


> So your previous data is invalid?



nope!!!! I did this after testing...

It is fixed now and I got a t-shirt out of it to....


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Thanks Matt for the files. 

Kelvin


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Superb! Thanks for posting all the relevant thresholds too. 

I'm a big fan of the Klippel tests. This sub can obviously be improved by optimizing the suspension rear travel and some inductance treatment. The BL variation is pretty low for a 10". Unfortunately, if one were to pic the lowest of the limits the xmax would come up to only 8mm or so. I can't wait to give you my batch of goods, so many backorders this year it takes me forever to receive drivers.


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## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

cvjoint said:


> Superb! Thanks for posting all the relevant thresholds too.
> 
> I'm a big fan of the Klippel tests. This sub can obviously be improved by optimizing the suspension rear travel and some inductance treatment. The BL variation is pretty low for a 10". Unfortunately, if one were to pic the lowest of the limits the xmax would come up to only 8mm or so. I can't wait to give you my batch of goods, so many backorders this year it takes me forever to receive drivers.



Still working out what to post>>>> getting there....


if you have drivers that need to be tested please send me a email!!!!! 

[email protected]


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Waiting on the Neo 8 to come from Parts Express, I ordered them a month ago.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Tests nearly identical to my test last year. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/klippel-reviews-driver-specs/63953-ultra-lv-10-subwoofer.html

Would like to see the actual distortion analysis. 

With the Le curve identical, it's safe to assume that the very high inductive distortion that was present in the driver I tested would be present as well in the current one.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

MiniVanMan said:


> Tests nearly identical to my test last year.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/klippel-reviews-driver-specs/63953-ultra-lv-10-subwoofer.html
> 
> ...


*I was waiting for the money post.*

Thanks *MiniVanMan*


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

^yep. It is testimony that not only have the klippel holders busted their buts testing but that the machine itself is reliable as well. 

Thumbs up!


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## tb46of (Sep 24, 2009)

Hi,

I'm voting for presenting the data in pdf format, please.

Regards,


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

tb46of said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm voting for presenting the data in pdf format, please.
> 
> Regards,


He did, as links under the pics.

Any test results available for 10" ID (or other manufacturer) subs for comparison?


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

95Maxima said:


> He did, as links under the pics.
> 
> Any test results available for 10" ID (or other manufacturer) subs for comparison?


Yeah, here.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/klippel-reviews-driver-specs/64034-dayton-rss265ho-4-a.html


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

MiniVanMan said:


> Yeah, here.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/klippel-reviews-driver-specs/64034-dayton-rss265ho-4-a.html


Thanks! I wonder how the IDQ's compare?


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

95Maxima said:


> Thanks! I wonder how the IDQ's compare?


My bet is we never find out.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

DIYMA said:


> Quite simple really.
> 
> 
> Matt found some problems with the KDA, and saw fit to send the unti back to Germany to get fixed.
> It has been returned and should be working at 100% of its potential.


No Problem Found, eh?



DIYMA said:


> I sent him an Ultra LV10 I had in my closet to be tested to see exactly how messed up the unit was before.
> 
> Running the sub again, under a freshly calibrated machine should tell us something about the first test, and how bad the unit was indeed messed up.
> 
> ANT


So what's the verdict?


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## Ultrasubs (Mar 13, 2007)

hanks to everybody who went out of their way to test the sub the 1st time and then go out and do it a 2nd time.

The first test was "what it was" as so was the second, I can't say that ANYTHING is wrong with the results either way because just like a PAINT BRUSH the Klippel machine results are open to interpretation.


I would LOVE if the Klippel could capture the ULTRA 10's unique sound and performance but we can't have everything.....

Great job to EVERYBODY involved and way to go on the degree of professionalism involved.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

cajunner said:


> 64 dollar question?
> 
> haha...
> 
> ...


I have a Seas Prestige CA26RFX (H1305) that should fit right in there ^

It's 50% Excel, but no shorting ring, no phaseplug, no fancy cone. It trades off all the Excel upper end extension to get better low end extension/sensitivity. It's cheap too 

I can take it in a week from today along with a dozen other speakers.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Ultrasubs said:


> hanks to everybody who went out of their way to test the sub the 1st time and then go out and do it a 2nd time.
> 
> The first test was "what it was" as so was the second, I can't say that ANYTHING is wrong with the results either way because just like a PAINT BRUSH the Klippel machine results are open to interpretation.
> 
> ...


Well, it did capture it's "unique performance", and the first test did capture it's "unique sound". By "unique sound" do you mean "unique levels of inductive distortion". That would certainly make it sound "unique". 

What is your argument against the results, and please give us your interpretation of the results. Since they're so "open to interpretation", you must have something to contribute scientifically. I mean, I'm sure you approached the design of your subwoofer scientifically, and had a plan in place to achieve something in particular. It couldn't possibly be buying a bunch of off the shelf parts and hand assembling them under the guise of "Made in the USA by Hand" and hoping that those results weren't revealed in an actual scientific test. 

I mean, that would be ridiculous.


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## DT053 (Mar 23, 2007)

MiniVanMan,

since you've used the KDA before, could you tell me what modules it has... LSI,LPM,DIS,AUR,,etc? I would like to request some tests but not sure which modules are available? 

Thanks
dT


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## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

DT053 said:


> MiniVanMan,
> 
> since you've used the KDA before, could you tell me what modules it has... LSI,LPM,DIS,AUR,,etc? I would like to request some tests but not sure which modules are available?
> 
> ...


 You could ask me since I am the one with the machine....

The only module we have at this time is the LSI....


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Yeah, it's just the LSI, which makes extrapolating the linear parameters a bit tricky. I don't know what method they're using, but I just used the known mass method with some good ole silly putty and a very accurate scale to determine Vas, then let the Klippel do the rest.

A laser sure would have been fun though.


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## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

MiniVanMan said:


> Well, it did capture it's "unique performance", and the first test did capture it's "unique sound". By "unique sound" do you mean "unique levels of inductive distortion". That would certainly make it sound "unique".
> 
> What is your argument against the results, and please give us your interpretation of the results. Since they're so "open to interpretation", you must have something to contribute scientifically. I mean, I'm sure you approached the design of your subwoofer scientifically, and had a plan in place to achieve something in particular. It couldn't possibly be buying a bunch of off the shelf parts and hand assembling them under the guise of "Made in the USA by Hand" and hoping that those results weren't revealed in an actual scientific test.
> 
> I mean, that would be ridiculous.




I going to throw a monkey wrench into this....

*We prefer Distortion in our reproduction of music....*and I bet that you cannot hear inductive distortion in a *Sub Woofer* until it goes past 20% distortion and at that power level you would not care because your ears would start to compress the input so that you do not overload the cochlea.

There is so much to this and to look at the graphs and then come to a conclusion based on only this data would be unwise...

As I like to say I can make a Radio Shack sub woofer sound good. 

Think about that.:rolleyes2:


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## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

MiniVanMan said:


> Yeah, it's just the LSI, which makes extrapolating the linear parameters a bit tricky. I don't know what method they're using, but I just used the known mass method with some good ole silly putty and a very accurate scale to determine Vas, then let the Klippel do the rest.
> 
> A laser sure would have been fun though.



The Linear X Data is the most accurate I cover all the bases when it comes to the T/S parameters.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Splitting hairs at this point I think. You're both right, keeping an eye on inductance is important for any speaker design. However, in the grand scheme of things not nearly as central as BL and suspension distortion. To me the BL looks very good for a 10" and that's the most important parameter. Nothing else is notable imo and that's a bit of a let down. The 10% distortion threshold will be reached prematurely before the motor can lay down the goods. 

In my humble opinion if there is any definition for an 'esque' sub it spells optimization plus a proper implementation of shorting ring(s) or effective tech(DD, Aura). In the 12" category there are 3 such subs tested in this forum: Aura, Peerless, and Dayton. The BL and suspension linearity go hand in hand and inductance variation is kept in check. The only notable exception is the Eclipse which is not optimized in the sense that the suspension flips out way before the outstanding motor runs out of steam, still stellar performance by any standard. 

W. Klippel recommends distortion testing in addition to parameter tests for the end user. I'd think the Klippel test is ideal for speaker manufacturers and the former for the end user (ideally both for both). 

I'm with MVM on 'uniqueness' not bringing anything to the table, not sure what that means. Long live the Klippel tests on DIYMA, something to relying on in car audio for a change.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

iDtech said:


> I going to throw a monkey wrench into this....
> 
> *We prefer Distortion in our reproduction of music....*and I bet that you cannot hear inductive distortion in a *Sub Woofer* until it goes past 20% distortion and at that power level you would not care because your ears would start to compress the input so that you do not overload the cochlea.
> 
> ...


Be careful with that statement. What we "prefer" as far as distortion is concerned is a very small subset of the overall distortion spectrum. We may prefer a bit of 2nd order harmonic distortion, but nobody with a brain prefers elevated levels of odd order HD, or worse elevated levels of IMD. 

Great, you can get a Radio Shack subwoofer to sound good. So, you're comparing the $500.00 (or whatever) Ultra sub to a Radio Shack sub that needs a lot of work to sound good? I don't understand your argument, or are you just chest beating about your knowledge of cheap subwoofers. Again, I'd be careful on that path. 

So, my point in all of this, is what makes the Ultra LV-10 worth the money it costs? So far, all I've gotten is a "unique" sound. Which to me equates to a highly distorted output if it's so noticeable in a car environment, which you've stated happens at about 20%. So, according to the producer of the sub saying it has a "unique" sound, and you saying that at those frequencies, you'd need about 20%+ in distortion to be audible, is it safe to say that the sub has a very high distortion profile?


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

have any of you retards actually HEARD the Ultra? based on the Klippel tests we ran on the LV12SQ it shouldn't sound good, but the sound is phenomenal. One of the best sounding subs I've ever had the pleasure of using, and I've been in this industry more than 20 years.


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

*superjay*

Position:
*VP Marketing and Product Development*


superjay said:


> have any of *you retards *actually HEARD the Ultra?


Really? Your day job?


12V Company:
*Sonda Audio*

Seriously, these guys?

Home - Guangzhou Sonda Audio Electronics Equipment Co., Ltd


Welcome aboard, I see good things coming.


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## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

Very good things. I have had the liberty to test some of the Sonda amps. Very solid stuff.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

superjay said:


> have any of you retards actually HEARD the Ultra? based on the Klippel tests we ran on the LV12SQ it shouldn't sound good, but the sound is phenomenal. One of the best sounding subs I've ever had the pleasure of using, and I've been in this industry more than 20 years.


My first post here is quite some time but it takes a special breed such as yourself for me to come on and recommend something....


Namely you re-wording that statement.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I refuse to listen to anything you ahve to say. you don't even know ohm's law...most of you don't even know you need to HEAR a speaker to know how it sounds


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

superjay said:


> have any of you retards actually HEARD the Ultra? based on the Klippel tests we ran on the LV12SQ it shouldn't sound good, but the sound is phenomenal. One of the best sounding subs I've ever had the pleasure of using, and I've been in this industry more than 20 years.


I'm not a retard...but I would be if I ever bought anything from your company. And I think I know what it is. 

By the way, my 14-year-old adopted nephew is retarded - but he seems to be a more enjoyable conversationalist than you are. Him, I like. You, not so much.

I've been in the industry over 20 years as well...that and 3.50 and I can get a tall latte. 

But let's go down that road. I'm in the industry, as a retailer (now, again). I look at a $500 retail sub. It doesn't look special to me at all. Looks like a sub. 

The test data on it are not yielding anything special. It might have some weaknesses, but we're not seeing any special strong points. 

I'm reading the arguments put forward here by the "maker" of the sub, and I'm not seeing anything that explains to me - either as a potential wholesale buyer, or as the guy who has to look a customer in the eye and say "You should spend $500 on this - not a JBL GTi10 II, not any other $500 MSRP driver, but this one right here". 

I'm not willing to buy it at wholesale and try to sell it at retail in the absence of such.

At $100 MSRP, I would probably be willing to buy one and listen to it. At $500 MSRP, there (by definition) has to be a _compelling _argument. There isn't. In fact, so far, the arguments I've seen from the supplier of this $500 sub make me think that I should dig out the Rolodex and get into the subwoofer business. 

Look, I sell high-end audio for a living. It's not enough to say, "Look, it sounds great!". That works with about 25% of the overall market, but less than that in this price range. They want a compelling explanation. So far, I haven't seen one either for the technically inclined, nor for the technically avoidant.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

superjay said:


> I refuse to listen to anything you ahve to say.


That's been apparent. 

Look, you're supposed to be in marketing. I'm actually favorably inclined towards marketing, such that it is the opportunity to decide what the market wants, what it should cost, and then communicate why you've made what you made and why it costs what it costs. 

I love that. 

But here you are, feeding the worst marketing stereotypes. 

This is an opportunity to explain why it sounds better than it seems to test. If you can't, you won't win over this crowd. And if you can't, as the maker (which you're not, but you are in the business, apparently), explain why it sounds better in a compelling fashion -* then even if the speaker sounds amazing, it was obviously an accident and not due to anything you did!*


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

superjay said:


> I refuse to listen to anything you ahve to say. you don't even know ohm's law...most of you don't even know you need to HEAR a speaker to know how it sounds


you are not gonna win this one skippy.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

we have not released product in this country yet.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

VP Electricity said:


> That's been apparent.
> 
> Look, you're supposed to be in marketing. I'm actually favorably inclined towards marketing, such that it is the opportunity to decide what the market wants, what it should cost, and then communicate why you've made what you made and why it costs what it costs.
> 
> ...


that's why, before talking crap about a speaker....LISTEN TO IT. you're in sales. If you want to sell something amazing, let the customer experience it. THAT is how to sell. make them NEED it. nobody needs something based on specs. 

All the fanboy smoke talk here doesn't do a thing but feed the egos of one or two people here.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

superjay said:


> we have not released product in this country yet.


I think the reason to this is rather apparent.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

superjay said:


> that's why, before talking crap about a speaker....LISTEN TO IT. you're in sales. If you want to sell something amazing, let the customer experience it. THAT is how to sell. make them NEED it. nobody needs something based on specs.
> 
> All the fanboy smoke talk here doesn't do a thing but feed the egos of one or two people here.


Like yours doesn't eat? Let's try this - 

So what you're saying - let me understand this - is that there is no reason for paying attention to Klippel results? That there's no place to consider any test results for a driver? 

If that's the best you can do, give up your marketing hat. All you are is a car salesman. 

I'll say it again. At $500, you better give me a compelling reason. So far, all you've done is call me names. You gonna be at CES?


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

chad said:


> I think the reason to this is rather apparent.


please, explain to me why we haven't released product yet.


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

superjay said:


> All the fanboy smoke talk here doesn't do a thing but feed the egos of one or two people here.


Mr. Pot, please allow me to introduce Mr. Kettle. :kiss:


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

VP Electricity said:


> Like yours doesn't eat? Let's try this -
> 
> So what you're saying - let me understand this - is that there is no reason for paying attention to Klippel results? That there's no place to consider any test results for a driver?
> 
> ...


test results ahve their place. absolutely. As a reference for other tests, such as subjective. They help explain WHY, they do not give the complete picture


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

superjay said:


> please, explain to me why we haven't released product yet.


Oh, ooh, let me try!

'Cause the *VP Marketing and Product Development* has Tourette's?


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

nope...because CES seems like a great place to release product for a new company.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

superjay said:


> nope...because CES seems like a great place to release product for a new company.


Great! I can come find your ass and you can call me a retard again. To my face.


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## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

LMAO. This is funny.

Jay, your gonna get beat up at CES.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

bring it. I love threats over the internet. They make me think of elementary school yard fights where everyone did a lot of yelling and nobody did anything.

and since you're so offended my the word "retard" maybe you should consider referring to your nephew as "developmentally disabled", as would be more considerate.


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## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

superjay said:


> have any of you retards actually HEARD the Ultra? based on the Klippel tests we ran on the LV12SQ it shouldn't sound good, but the sound is phenomenal. One of the best sounding subs I've ever had the pleasure of using, and I've been in this industry more than 20 years.


And yet again here YOU are bringing NOTHING to a thread other than name calling/poor representation of your company...

You seem SO SIMILAR to someone who was just banned


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## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

superjay said:


> I refuse to listen to anything you ahve to say. you don't even know ohm's law...most of you don't even know you need to HEAR a speaker to know how it sounds


So because YOU seem to think that a 9 volt battery out of a smoke alarm and a 12 volt battery out of a car have the ability to produce the SAME AMPERAGE/CURRENT now HE is the one who is the fool???

Do my a favor, wrap your balls in a wet towel and go drop them across the terminals on your car battery please...Maybe put a piece of metal pipe across the terminals as well "just for added reassurance"


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

tinctorus said:


> So because YOU seem to think that a 9 volt battery out of a smoke alarm and a 12 volt battery out of a car have the ability to produce the SAME AMPERAGE/CURRENT now HE is the one who is the fool???
> 
> Do my a favor, wrap your balls in a wet towel and go drop them across the terminals on your car battery please...Maybe put a piece of metal pipe across the terminals as well "just for added reassurance"


didn't say anything like that...Actually, i never used the word current. I used the words POWER and WATTS.


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

Must ... resist ... cat pics!


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## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

95Maxima said:


> Must ... resist ... cat pics!


Yeah arent all of Sqasslicker's post's supposed to get them anyways???


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

This is so much more enjoyable now that I'm removed from the actual testing. 

I still haven't heard an answer to my question. What process did the engineers take when designing this sub to come to the sound signature that this product boasts?

I mean, I'm assuming that a methodology was used. 

See, the problem is is that I have no compelling reason to even search and try to listen to an Ultra subwoofer. It's expensive and NOBODY on the Ultra side can give ANY valid reasons as to why the subwoofer is what it is. So, at this point, the only thing I can assume is that whatever "sound" it's achieved is purely coincidental, and was not part of the method in it's design.

So, this is what I've concluded the "scientific method" used in the design of this subwoofer is.

1. I want to make money.
2. I don't want to spend money.
3. I want it to be as easy as possible.
4. I want to target fools and their money so that they can be parted from each other.
5. I will buy off the shelf parts, and assemble the product myself.
6. I will put "Handmade in the USA" on the product to induce the fools even further into parting with their money.

See, this is the perception. At no point has ANYBODY on the Ultra side offered any evidence in the contrary to those statements. In fact, every word spewed out has only reinforced my stance on this product really is.

It's a bunch of off the shelf parts, slapped together, with a big sticker stating "Handmade in the USA". 

This sound signature is nothing but distortion. If it's pleasing, then fine, but I find it odd that with every other legitimate manufacturer attempting to further the development of transducer technology in efforts to create more efficiency, reduced distortion and other inherent problems, Ultra is recycling common technology, with cheapish, commodity parts, and trying to sell alongside transducers that have actual technological advances applied that were years in the development.

I don't need to hear the sub. I don't need to hear it because it's a cheap sub, that goes for a premium price. I can find plenty of cheap subs, that are cheap, that rock huge amounts of inductive distortion, offset CMS and KMS curves, and average linear excursion.

Hell, I can get a Lambda, or XBL^2 motor with actual copper sleeves for less than half the price of the LV-10, and that's to get a much more technically advanced motor. 

Please, I've kept this offer out there ever since I tested the damn thing. PROVE ME WRONG!! Offer some kind of compelling evidence that refutes ANYTHING I've said. 

At least try, even if it means lying. Do something.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

superjay said:


> didn't say anything like that...Actually, i never used the word current. I used the words POWER and WATTS.


Excuse me while I reswallow the vomit that just spewed up in my shock, awe, and near head explosion.

Okay, Einstein, when talking "WATTS", and "POWER", how in the **** is current not part of the equation? HALF THE ****ING FORMULA FOR POWER IS THE CURRENT MEASUREMENT.

Voltage x Current = Power (Watts).

So, you don't need to use the word current, because anybody that's remotely educated, which you aren't, immediately understands, that when talking "power/watts", that current is implied because it's part of the ****ing equation.


----------



## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

MiniVanMan said:


> Excuse me while I reswallow the vomit that just spewed up in my shock, awe, and near head explosion.
> 
> Okay, Einstein, when talking "WATTS", and "POWER", how in the **** is current not part of the equation? HALF THE ****ING FORMULA FOR POWER IS THE CURRENT MEASUREMENT.
> 
> ...


Lol I really wish i could post the ****ing ohm's law pie chart from my work computer, this ****tard obviously does NOT understand that just because he didnt SAY current doesnt mean that he wasnt actually TALKING about current by saying power/watt's

It's just funnier when you go off the hinge at someone because for some reason you end up doing it in a MUCH funnier way than most other people on here


----------



## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Wow its been almost 6 months since i visited this dump... and this convo with a ******* of a rep is HILARIOUS... 

heres your Ohms law chart...hows that engineering degree working out?

I guess just looking at current storage capacity of a car battery and the almost nonexistent current storage capacity of a 9V doesn't do it for ya hu?


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

tehbeermang said:


> That's because 4 people listen to you. Many more roll their eyes and walk away.


You may be right. That would be very sad. It may be that I give people too much credit but I sincerely hope the normal response to expertise isn't a childish attempt to conceal one's own ignorance. Whistling past the graveyard of knowledge


----------



## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

guitarsail said:


> Wow its been almost 6 months since i visited this dump... and this convo with a ******* of a rep is HILARIOUS...
> 
> heres your Ohms law chart...hows that engineering degree working out?
> 
> I guess just looking at current storage capacity of a car battery and the almost nonexistent current storage capacity of a 9V doesn't do it for ya hu?


If you think THIS thread with him is funny you should read the "which wire is positive" thread to REALLY piss yourself


----------



## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

I did..then I came here and continued laughing at what this place is... and WTF is with all the Full Sail Univeristy ads? Seriously wth happened to this place??


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

guitarsail said:


> I did..then I came here and continued laughing at what this place is... and WTF is with all the Full Sail Univeristy ads? Seriously wth happened to this place??


I get them too, it knows you and I have the same background


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

tehbeermang
DIYMA freshman

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: *This site sucks*.
Posts: 5 

*WOW !*


----------



## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

chad said:


> I get them too, it knows you and I have the same background


Thats creepy....

I feel like my work computer is going to get a computer STD being on this site....


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Oliver said:


> tehbeermang
> DIYMA freshman
> 
> Join Date: Jan 2009
> ...


I noticed the same thing. WTF is he doing here then? Is this the new Sqass man?


----------



## Ultrasubs (Mar 13, 2007)

HOLLY ****, I figured that the last time things got "childish" that it was a one time freak accident.

The ULTRA LV-10 is *not* $500 but is $329.00 AT FULL MSRP......including a 3 year warranty.

Jay, thanks for stepping up as a "somebody" at another company that would stick their neck out for ULTRA but I think _some _ people here have a "hard-on" for me personally and ULTRA by all the slander.

NO PROBLEM.
The Klippel don't have ears, their are PLENTY of woofers on the market that Klippel excellent but fry in 30 seconds, use a Kapton former and blow up the next day just because they were not allowed to cool off before being abruptly shut off and so on.

The ULTRA 10 sounds great, holds together in applications that would grenade woofers costing much more.

Off the shelf ? a joke to say the least.

In any case ANT, if you are there, please make this thread go away, delete the Klippel results and we will be on our way.

If you ask me I don't care for any of this baby **** and after the tone that mr. midivan took, I will not even waste my time moving forward with ANY other comments.

To the rest of the DIY community I truly apologize that we will not be able to have a valuable discussion due to the inability of some of the DIY minority mentality to act their age and not their shoe size....... A shame indeed.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

> In any case ANT, if you are there, please make this thread go away, delete the Klippel results and we will be on our way.


*Ant needs to make this whole deal go away*!

You, included


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## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

I own 2 LV10's and compete with them and let me tell you. I have pushed them and pushed them and not once have I heard distortion. Judges who have sat in my car seem to like them as well.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

tehbeermang said:


> I logged in, I got a message that I couldn't read any posts or make any posts until I filled in some required information, but didn't get any notification as to what was required. All the boxes in the "required" information fieldset within my control panel were filled in.
> 
> I changed that box from "402" to "This site sucks" and voila! I can post.
> 
> Given this experience with the control panel, I think that location is appropriate.


We all got the same message.
*
What a Moron*


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

> $329.00 AT FULL MSRP......including a 3 year warranty.


Where can I send my money?





basher8621 said:


> I own 2 LV10's and compete with them and let me tell you. I have pushed them and pushed them and not once have I heard distortion. Judges who have sat in my car seem to like them as well.


How bout some pics of trophies?

MECA
IASCA

where did you win?


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

basher8621 said:


> I own 2 LV10's and compete with them and let me tell you. I have pushed them and pushed them and not once have I heard distortion. Judges who have sat in my car seem to like them as well.


And your opinion is, of course, unbiased!


----------



## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> And your opinion is, of course, unbiased!


I don't work for Ultra. Before I even joined the Team I got the subs and tested them, so yes.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Ultrasubs said:


> The Klippel don't have ears, their are PLENTY of woofers on the market that Klippel excellent but fry in 30 seconds, use a Kapton former and blow up the next day just because they were not allowed to cool off before being abruptly shut off and so on.


Cool. Like which ones?


----------



## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

Oliver said:


> Where can I send my money?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No USACi, it is what is closest to me and easiest to get to with my military schedule. I don't take pictures of trophies, I don't care about trophies, I just love car audio and competing.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Ultrasubs said:


> HOLLY ****
> The Klippel don't have ears, their are PLENTY of woofers on the market that Klippel excellent but fry in 30 seconds, use a Kapton former and blow up the next day just because they were not allowed to cool off before being abruptly shut off and so on.
> 
> The ULTRA 10 sounds great, Off the shelf ? a joke to say the least.


Never dyno test your motor when you are talking **** !!


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

basher8621 said:


> No USACi, it iwas what is closest to me and easiest to get to with my military schedule. I don't take pictures of trophies, I don't care about trophies, I just love car audio and competing.


Amplifiers, components ?


----------



## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

Ultra amps and Hybrid Audio front stage


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Ultrasubs said:


> In any case ANT, if you are there, please make this thread go away, delete the Klippel results and we will be on our way.


Does that sound like a direct order or what? Does Ultra have partial ownership of the forum and therefore legislative power? 

Last time I checked we are all free to 'be on our way' from a public forum, you can just log off or ask to be deleted. As far as deleting forum information, well that's just obtuse. You're not the only one that has vested information in this thread, and you certainly haven't fabricated the Klippel results posted. If that were the case you probably wouldn't be so ashamed of them... 

The internet is brutally fair at times. You can't expect to only receive positive advertising, even if you design the holly grail of all subs.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

basher8621 said:


> Ultra amps and Hybrid Audio front stage


were you at a comp recently with Chad competing?

He mentioned a lot of the competitors had a similar setup to yours.


----------



## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

No, I was not.

I am not here to argue with anyone. I am just saying that I HAVE heard the Ultra LV10 so I can vouch for how it sounds.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Ultrasubs said:


> HOLLY ****, I figured that the last time things got "childish" that it was a one time freak accident.
> 
> The ULTRA LV-10 is *not* $500 but is $329.00 AT FULL MSRP......including a 3 year warranty.
> 
> ...


Oh please, you've never offered anything of value other than "trust me, it sounds great, please give me your money". So, don't pout and try and pretend that I'm keeping you from having a "valuable" contribution. You're not refuting me because you can't. You're trying to play the "bigger man" game here, in an attempt to deflect the actual issues. 

So, your sub holds up. So what. So do a lot of subs, for much less money. I can find subs that sound great and handle much more power for less money. What's your point? 

Yeah, you hate the Klippel tests. They expose your sub for what it is. Mediocre at best. Surprise, surprise that you want them removed. That's okay, I still have the original results from the first Klippel test that I did. They exist. Either, specifically state where I'm wrong without the marketing B.S., or stop crying. 

You want to charge a premium for a subwoofer? Then make a premium subwoofer. There's nothing about your design that commands a premium price. It's a simple design, and a simple motor. Repeatable by anybody that wants to make the investment in the off the shelf parts. If they're not off the shelf, then you should have some CAD drawings, and detailed specifications of each part you've used. In other words, they should have been designed by you and your team. Those parts command a premium price because they need to be specifically tooled. But there's NOTHING about your design that says anything was specifically designed for any particular purpose. It's just ordinary.

Now, if you did, you're an idiot, because your sub utilizes not a single technological advance that would warrant specific tooling and manufacturing of parts. Since I don't think you're an idiot, then I have to assume that your parts are off the shelf, and again, we're back to ordinary. 

I put your sub up against the Dayton RS265HO over a year ago. I specifically did that because while the Dayton utilizes many off the shelf parts, the motor is at least designed with a specific purpose. It's a simple motor with copper sleeving inserted to reduce distortion. The motor is actually a bit more sophisticated that the LV10 motor, but the sub costs 1/3 less. Why is that? The Dayton motor is actually more expensive to produce than the LV10s motor. The rest of the parts are off the shelf. Many of us are not stupid here. You're preying on the stupid, and I abhor that kind of predatory marketing. So, yeah, I'm pretty hostile toward people like you and your ilk. 

Also, I wouldn't jump too quickly on the superjay bandwagon. He's already proven himself to be a complete idiot. Lauding him is only going to make you look worse. 

You can cry foul all you want, but the real foul is you trying to charge a premium price for a mediocre subwoofer.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

basher8621 said:


> No, I was not.
> 
> I am not here to argue with anyone. I am just saying that I HAVE heard the Ultra LV10 so I can vouch for how it sounds.


You can't vouch for how it actually sounds. If that were the case we'd have a whole forum section dedicated to basher8621, complete with pdf files documenting what you heard. Manufacturers would pay big $ to help them design their merchandise. 

However, there is a section where that statement would fit, and that's the review forum. Subjective opinions are welcome there, and note the abundance, the variety, and yet the futility. A 'judge's' opinion is nothing more than a post there.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

MiniVanMan said:


> Excuse me while I reswallow the vomit that just spewed up in my shock, awe, and near head explosion.
> 
> Okay, Einstein, when talking "WATTS", and "POWER", how in the **** is current not part of the equation? HALF THE ****ING FORMULA FOR POWER IS THE CURRENT MEASUREMENT.
> 
> ...


voltage squared divided by resistance=power


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

superjay said:


> voltage squared divided by resistance=power


Not the sharpest tool in the shed are you? More like a dull sledge hammer.

E = I x R (voltage equals current times resistance)
P = I x E (power equals current times voltage)

Ohm's Law in it's entirety. 

E = I x R or Voltage = current times resistance
I = E / R or current = voltage divided by resistance
R = E / I or resistance = voltage divided by current
P = I x E or Power = current times voltage
P = I2 x R or power equals current squared times resistance
P = E2 / R or power equals voltage squared divided by resistance


----------



## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

MiniVanMan said:


> *Not the sharpest tool in the shed are you? More like a dull sledge hammer.*
> 
> E = I x R (voltage equals current times resistance)
> P = I x E (power equals current times voltage)
> ...


I was thinking he was more like a Spork myself


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

basher8621 said:


> I own 2 LV10's and compete with them and let me tell you. I have pushed them and pushed them and not once have I heard distortion. Judges who have sat in my car seem to like them as well.


and, as a means to measure performance/price, I own 2 15's that combined cost less than a single one of these 10" subs (at full msrp price) and no judges have a problem with them. Most who've heard them seems to wind up buying a pair either the same size or in the 12 or 10" version (I can name three off the top).




But, I digress... as if this thread wasn't doing so anyway.


----------



## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

tinctorus said:


> I was thinking he was more like a Spork myself


I dunno. I keep thinking of George Constanza and Vandalay Industries.

"...and you wanna be my latex salesman..."


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

bikinpunk said:


> and, as a means to measure performance/price, I own 2 15's that combined cost less than a single one of these 10" subs (at full msrp price) and no judges have a problem with them. Most who've heard them seems to wind up buying a pair either the same size or in the 12 or 10" version (I can name three off the top).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Erin, when did you get Ultra stuff?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

superjay said:


> Erin, when did you get Ultra stuff?


WARNING: This message may contain a prophetic discourse on the necessity of ****up in understanding the laws of the universe.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

superjay said:


> Erin, when did you get Ultra stuff?


He didnt


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I didn't, Jay.

Running AE IB15's still.


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## Ultrasubs (Mar 13, 2007)

MiniVanMan said:


> Oh please, you've never offered anything of value other than "trust me, it sounds great, please give me your money". So, don't pout and try and pretend that I'm keeping you from having a "valuable" contribution. You're not refuting me because you can't. You're trying to play the "bigger man" game here, in an attempt to deflect the actual issues.
> 
> So, your sub holds up. So what. So do a lot of subs, for much less money. I can find subs that sound great and handle much more power for less money. What's your point?
> 
> ...


BLA BLA BLA:listenup: Lets not get touchy............ I don't take things personally and to be honest I didn't bother reading your post.

MY GOD how I wish I could be bothered WASTING MY TIME but unfortunately for you I don't have anymore to waste (more than I have already) .

I will end this here on my end because I refuse to have a battle of wits with people who are unarmed.
Take care bye bye then....... The "Mediocre" speaker (in your high and mighty opinion) will see you in the lanes at a competition near you.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)




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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

"Buyer beware" :laugh:


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

that klippel is powerful ****.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Ultrasubs said:


> BLA BLA BLA:listenup: Lets not get touchy............ I don't take things personally and to be honest I didn't bother reading your post.
> 
> MY GOD how I wish I could be bothered WASTING MY TIME but unfortunately for you I don't have anymore to waste (more than I have already) .
> 
> ...



You know damm well you have read every word of his posts in this thread, I would bet multiple times. Its a shame you cant back up your products by answering a few simple questions.


----------



## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> You know damm well you have read every word of his posts in this thread, I would bet multiple times. Its a shame you cant back up your products by answering a few simple questions.


X2.

That response was _Ultra_-weaksauce.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Ultrasubs said:


> BLA BLA BLA:listenup: Lets not get touchy............ I don't take things personally and to be honest I didn't bother reading your post.
> 
> MY GOD how I wish I could be bothered WASTING MY TIME but unfortunately for you I don't have anymore to waste (more than I have already) .
> 
> ...


Wow, explaining, in detail, your product, your design goals, your method is "WASTING YOUR TIME"?????? 

Like any good marketer, you'd at least bother to come up with a line of bull ****. You can't even do that. You're completely backed into a corner from evidently a witless fool, and are cowering like a cornered rabbit. Come on, fight back a little. Give us something. You're getting beaten by a witless fool who has called you out on every aspect of your product, and all you have to offer is some people really like the sub. 

Some people are really into scat porn. So, opinions are bit suspect to me when I don't know the source. You know how a girls attractiveness is elevated if the rest of the girls in the room are butt ugly? I think of SQ competitions the same way. 10 teenagers show up with rattling license plates, and Pyle subs, and one shows up with your sub. Mediocre vs crap. Yeah, I really put stock in "competitions". They tell me SOOOOOO much more than an actual scientific analysis. 

I find it SOOOOO funny that you have applied NO scientific method to the development of your products, but have the balls to trash talk to people that actually understand the pure physics of transducer design and are calling you out on it. It's blatantly obvious what your business plan is to anybody with half a brain. 

Oh, and by the way, YES!!!!! Since this keeps coming up, yeah, the guy that TESTED the damn thing initially has indeed heard it. You know how I heard it, because I ****ing tested it. That's for the next idiot that asks if I've ever heard an Ultra sub. 

You have no time for people with actual knowledge of transducer design because we're not your marketing target. Your target is the ignorant. So, go, market to the ignorant. We'll still be here putting up your subwoofer as a poster child of overpriced car audio goods. 

You already feel threatened because you asked for this thread and the test to be removed. So don't go all chest beating now.


----------



## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*Wow, this thread really got wild.*


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

why would he come up with a line of BS? that's the problem with most of the other manu's out there. I know you guys have your fanboy products that are the end all be all in your eyes, but there are other good products out there...really, there are. 

Minivan - did you conduct an actual critical listening test, or just what you heard on the Klippel, and maybe hook it up for ****s and giggles? Do you have any other tests to go with the Klippel, like LMS or MLSSA? Klippel is an amazing machine, but it doesn't tell you everything. Klippel should be a PART of a battery of tests. 

Until we got Klippel is was very difficult to predict what would happen as the VC left the gap...we didn't have a large power test. It was difficult to predict how a diaphragm was going to behave under extreme conditions until we got the interferometer. But we still need small power tests and critical listening. 

In defense of Lambros, I know where the sub is made, and I know who designed it. I'm not sure he wants that information posted in public, as he never has before. The sub is IN FACT handmade here in the USA...I do not know the origin of the parts. I also know the sub is very well made, and sounds amazing under many conditions. It is an incredibly versatile sub, comfortable in small to mid-sized sealed or mid-sized ported enclosures. 

Although the Klippel graphs show some anomalies they all add up to a sub that makes it work. Like the IDMax the LV subs work with small power (100-300 watts) or larger power (1000 watts) and will power through abuse after abuse. 

Andy Jones used the LV10 in his car with judges comments like "snappy" and "responsive". Basher uses LV10's in his installation with very good results. he also uses Ultra components and Ultra amplifiers. Brian Murphy swears by the line, and has had nothing but positive responses. Personally, i have never heard anything negative about the line until i came here. 

Some of you seem quite knowledgeable, which is why it seems so out of sorts to see such ignorance. It's as if you all looked at HP ratings on a car and didn't take anything else into account.


----------



## bass_lover1 (Dec 10, 2005)

superjay said:


> why would he come up with a line of BS? that's the problem with most of the other manu's out there. I know you guys have your fanboy products that are the end all be all in your eyes, but there are other good products out there...really, there are.
> 
> Minivan - did you conduct an actual critical listening test, or just what you heard on the Klippel, and maybe hook it up for ****s and giggles? Do you have any other tests to go with the Klippel, like LMS or MLSSA? Klippel is an amazing machine, but it doesn't tell you everything. Klippel should be a PART of a battery of tests.
> 
> ...


Uhh, no it's not. Seeing as a Klippel test is going to give you many many useful numbers, it's not even close to just looking a vehicle's tested HP numbers.

It would be like looking at HP, torque, 1/4 mile, 0-60, 60-0, skid pad, slalom. Do you want me to continue?

Are you going to know what it's like to drive said vehicle? No, but you have a really damn good idea how it's going to perform in a variety of situations. Which is EXACTLY the purpose of Klippel results.


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

superjay said:


> Andy Jones used the LV10 in his car with judges comments like "snappy" and "responsive". .


Again, you really trust and believe what judges say? I have never heard the terms snappy and responsive refer to sub bass. Mid bass, yes, but never sub bass. I would say he had very good mid bass response in his car and had inexperienced judges!


----------



## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)




----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

bass_lover1 said:


> Uhh, no it's not. Seeing as a Klippel test is going to give you many many useful numbers, it's not even close to just looking a vehicle's tested HP numbers.
> 
> It would be like looking at HP, torque, 1/4 mile, 0-60, 60-0, skid pad, slalom. Do you want me to continue?
> 
> Are you going to know what it's like to drive said vehicle? No, but you have a really damn good idea how it's going to perform in a variety of situations. Which is EXACTLY the purpose of Klippel results.


and in a car magazine the reviews are written with a large degree of subjectivity. They give their opinion of the car based on previous experience with other cars in that class. That may be the most important part. i want to know how it sounds, not how it responds to pink noise and warble bursts.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

MiniVanMan wins by KO in round 0. It was basically a heavy weight vs. what...an amateur? I thought folks go to comps to get to know other hobbyists. To build a driver based on competition performance is like...like building it from spit and delusions of grandeur. These things look more and more like meets for kids with special needs. 

How far behind the curve is car audio...100 years


----------



## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)




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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

from what I briefly read We are now talking about what a driver sounds like when the VC leaves the ****ing gap?

REALLY? as in....











Well.. Lord abacus/postrdamus found out.. The LV10 goes THUNK.. and stops working, while the VC is thrown OUTSIDE the gap and crashes coming back in. The pics should still be there.

It's all here folks, it's all here.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

..........................*MiniVanMan wins by KO* in round 0................




superjay said:


> and in a car magazine the reviews are written with a large degree of subjectivity. [ or BS ] They give their opinion of the car based on previous experience with other cars in that class. That may be the most important part. i want to know how it sounds, not how it responds to pink noise and warble bursts.


Mustafa appears about 45 seconds into this.

YouTube - THE BEST OF MARVELOUS MARVIN HAGLER

Marvelous Marvin Hagler fought a greek in 1981 

3 Oct -- *Mustafa Hamsho*, IL --* TKO 11*
(Retained World Middleweight Title)

The guy kept sticking his tongue out at Marvin.

with 55 cuts in his face they said it looked like he got hit with a jackhammer that had a razor edge.

I'll say one thing , the greeks love a good ass-whupping in public


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

superjay said:


> why would he come up with a line of BS? that's the problem with most of the other manu's out there. I know you guys have your fanboy products that are the end all be all in your eyes, but there are other good products out there...really, there are.


Ummm, that was what this forum was founded on. Weeding through the marketing BS and finding those products. This place is a long ways away from those days. 



superjay said:


> Minivan - did you conduct an actual critical listening test, or just what you heard on the Klippel, and maybe hook it up for ****s and giggles? Do you have any other tests to go with the Klippel, like LMS or MLSSA? Klippel is an amazing machine, but it doesn't tell you everything.


A critical listening test based on subsonic frequencies? Yeah, that's worth the effort.  Ask Niebur3 how well critical listening tests go. And his was for frequencies that humans are actually sensitive to. Because, as Matt pointed out, most people can't tell the difference between high distortion and low distortion in the subsonic realm. So, it's easy to peddle high distortion products. 



superjay said:


> Klippel should be a PART of a battery of tests.


I agree, I'd like to see the battery of tests that the LV10 was subjected to prior to it's release. Lambros has stated that the LV10 has "never seen a Klippel". That's fine, you're right, the Klippel is not the end all be all of transducer testing. However, I would like to know, other than a few ears, what was used to determine the sub was ready for distribution to the marketplace. The answer is "NOTHING". Nothing was done. A few small signal tests, and maybe some real power to determine durability, but nothing in the way of actually determining the sonic characteristics of the sub. No attempt at reducing the extremely high inductive distortion. Slapped together based on some cheap, but proven technology and peddled to the marketplace as a "premium" product. 



superjay said:


> Until we got Klippel is was very difficult to predict what would happen as the VC left the gap...we didn't have a large power test. It was difficult to predict how a diaphragm was going to behave under extreme conditions until we got the interferometer. But we still need small power tests and critical listening.


You can measure distortion. You can hear distortion. The two aren't independent of each other like so many would like to make us think. Our measuring equipment is MUCH more sensitive than the human ear. We know the thresholds of human hearing. We know what the human ear can tolerate, what it's sensitive to, and what it's not sensitive to. Is there a point where decreasing distortion further is pointless? Sure. Not very often in a loudspeaker as that's the biggest distortion producing link in the audio chain. But we do know that the human ear is particularly tolerant of distortion in the subsonic frequencies. Again, we're back to "average", and "mediocre" for no other reason that, you can. 



superjay said:


> In defense of Lambros, I know where the sub is made, and I know who designed it. I'm not sure he wants that information posted in public, as he never has before. The sub is IN FACT handmade here in the USA...I do not know the origin of the parts. I also know the sub is very well made, and sounds amazing under many conditions. It is an incredibly versatile sub, comfortable in small to mid-sized sealed or mid-sized ported enclosures.


I've already made my statement about "Handmade in the USA". So what? Kudos for giving American's jobs. That's about all that means to me. The parts are still commodity, off the shelf parts. As for being versatile. Oooooh!! I'm impressed. I can't think of ANY other subs that are comfortable in small to midsize enclosures either ported or sealed. Damn, not a single one is coming to mind. Oh, wait, that's because my mind just flooded with EVERY ****ING SUB being manufactured today for the car audio, and a lot of the home audio mediums. 



superjay said:


> Although the Klippel graphs show some anomalies they all add up to a sub that makes it work. Like the IDMax the LV subs work with small power (100-300 watts) or larger power (1000 watts) and will power through abuse after abuse.


Again, I can find plenty of subs that fit that standard of performance. We also know that an LV10 in the hands of an idiot will react the same as any other sub in the hands of an idiot. Nothing special there. 

Anomalies?? I don't pay for anomalies. I "settle" for anomalies. 

Subs that work off of low power or high power? Really? That's also supposed to impress me? I can look at the large signal numbers and small signal numbers. I can determine the subs efficiency, and sensitivity. I know how much output the sub will produce with any given power. If this sub has broken any laws of physics, please enlighten us. If Lambros is holding the information, while the scientific community discusses the validity of his claims, and possibly patent protection, then I recant EVERYTHING I said, I will buy every last piece of his inventory at full MSRP. 

Until then, it does what every other subwoofer does. It takes electrical energy and transforms it into mechanical energy. It's subject to the exact same laws of physics every other transducer is. 



superjay said:


> Andy Jones used the LV10 in his car with judges comments like "snappy" and "responsive". Basher uses LV10's in his installation with very good results. he also uses Ultra components and Ultra amplifiers. Brian Murphy swears by the line, and has had nothing but positive responses. Personally, i have never heard anything negative about the line until i came here.


Snappy 40 hz tones? What are they 41 hz tones? They're faster 40 hz tones? What the hell does "snappy" mean. You mean, good group delay? Isn't that more a function of the enclosure? Well done Andy Jones, you build a solid performing enclosure. 



superjay said:


> Some of you seem quite knowledgeable, which is why it seems so out of sorts to see such ignorance. It's as if you all looked at HP ratings on a car and didn't take anything else into account.


Tell me specifically what I've said that display ignorance, and WHY. Don't just say I'm wrong without a counter argument. That's the way these things work. I offer one scenario. If you disagree, then you state WHY you disagree and offer evidence to support your position. So far in this argument I've posted all the evidence, and shot down every claim of superiority that Ultra has made, and have had NOTHING but "but it sounds good" thrown back my way. So, please, educate me. Where am I wrong?


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

chad said:


> from what I briefly read We are now talking about what a driver sounds like when the VC leaves the ****ing gap?


He now knows that we know what we all know, and that is the Klippel is a sort of a ...weapon of mass destruction for Ultra subs. 

Competitions nicer on Ultra sub...small signal...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

superjay said:


> why would he come up with a line of BS? that's the problem with most of the other manu's out there. I know you guys have your fanboy products that are the end all be all in your eyes, but there are other good products out there...really, there are.



I fully agree, that's the point of the testing.



superjay said:


> Minivan - did you conduct an actual critical listening test, or just what you heard on the Klippel, and maybe hook it up for ****s and giggles? Do you have any other tests to go with the Klippel, like LMS or MLSSA? Klippel is an amazing machine, but it doesn't tell you everything. Klippel should be a PART of a battery of tests.



I can assure you that he DID NOT do a critical listening test, the goal is to TEST a driver's PARAMETERS. and ironically they seem to line up.. I suggest you read back many years of this forum.



superjay said:


> Until we got Klippel is was very difficult to predict what would happen as the VC left the gap...we didn't have a large power test. It was difficult to predict how a diaphragm was going to behave under extreme conditions until we got the interferometer. But we still need small power tests and critical listening.



Well is it an SQ driver or not? it will NEVER leave the gap in SQ testing, some with big front-ends even shut the sub off. why are we now inot the VC leaving the gap? Hint.. this is a bad ****ing thing.. add subs if they are leaving the gap, we are not in a slingshot tournament.



superjay said:


> In defense of Lambros, I know where the sub is made, and I know who designed it. I'm not sure he wants that information posted in public, as he never has before. The sub is IN FACT handmade here in the USA...I do not know the origin of the parts. I also know the sub is very well made, and sounds amazing under many conditions. It is an incredibly versatile sub, comfortable in small to mid-sized sealed or mid-sized ported enclosures.



OK



superjay said:


> Although the Klippel graphs show some anomalies they all add up to a sub that makes it work. Like the IDMax the LV subs work with small power (100-300 watts) or larger power (1000 watts) and will power through abuse after abuse.



It has been proven not to work, not only on paper but after it was given away.



superjay said:


> Andy Jones used the LV10 in his car with judges comments like "snappy" and "responsive". Basher uses LV10's in his installation with very good results. he also uses Ultra components and Ultra amplifiers. Brian Murphy swears by the line, and has had nothing but positive responses. Personally, i have never heard anything negative about the line until i came here.




It's never good to drop names, nuff said. Andy changes subs like I change underwear, but that's OK.

Some of you seem quite knowledgeable, which is why it seems so out of sorts to see such ignorance. It's as if you all looked at HP ratings on a car and didn't take anything else into account.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for writing a non-insulting rebuttal, it's a breath of fresh air. This is the way things need to be.

Srsly man, I mean it.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

All speakers sound the same.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> All speakers sound the same.


But the real ****ty ones cost more !


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

Oliver said:


> But the real ****ty ones cost more !


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

total link fail


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

holy cow, what a mess.

I'm beginning to feel that old feeling once again. Why bother with science? Why bother with a Klippel machine? Well, i'll tell you why : the Klippel results tell you EVERYTHING about how a subwoofer sounds. You don't need to hear it, once you understand large & small signal test results. Anymore than i need to be on the moon, to tell you how fast a hammer will fall on its surface.

How do i know this?

A subwoofer operates in its piston range, which dramatically simplifies the driver's output in two meaningful ways : One, don't worry about on-axis versus off-axis, polar response, or power response issues. Two, don't worry about cone resonance ... it can't be supported in the driver's piston range.

The Klippel tells you everything you need to know about small signal performance, as well as large signal performance. All the extracted parameters can completely describe the frequency response, as well as the transient response. And they give a pretty damn accurate description of the distortion performance for large signal, steady-state operation, including harmonic & intermod (if you know how to understand & apply the test results).

Don't "believe" me? Fine (even though it's not a matter of "belief", nor is my statement open to interpretation). But then you have to answer ONE question :

*What is it SPECIFICALLY about the subwoofer's performance that the Klippel FAILS to tell you?*

Is it the frequency response? Nope, that's included.
Is it the transient response? Nope, that's included.
Is it the distortion performance? Nope, that's included.
Is it the performance in an enclosure? Nope, that's included (if you know how to use the extracted parameters in enclosure design).
Is it the performance in a car? Nope, that's a function of the Klippel results plus the cabin gain of the vehicle.

Is it ... the "sound" of the driver? Nope ... ALL OF THE ABOVE combine to form the "sound" of the driver.

*So .. what is it? What characteristics of the acoustic output of a driver in its piston range escape the scrutiny of the Klippel?*

Unless, you think there's something about the "sound" of a driver in its piston range that mysteriously operates beyond frequency response, transient response, harmonic distortion, intermod distortion, etc.

The ONLY thing i can imagine that MIGHT escape the sharp scrutiny of the Klippel is long-term reliability, and manufacturer's corresponding warranty. These are the only areas for "wiggle room", if you want to argue that the Klippel doesn't tell you everything you need to know about a subwoofer's performance.

Don't even think about trying to cling to "calibration" as a last ditch excuse. OF COURSE any test machine needs to be calibrated. As do your EARS, before you can trust anything you HEAR. But nobody ever seems to acknowledge _this_ point ...

Finally, without reading all the comments in detail ... how different _are_ the results from the newly-fixed machine, versus the old version?


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

lycan said:


> Finally, without reading all the comments in detail ... how different _are_ the results from the newly-fixed machine, versus the old version?


They're not.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

If I was this guy: Lambros Vassiliou
C.E.O. Ultratech Autotronic corp. 

I would just say my subs have been Klippel tested 

*and leave it at that.*


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

MiniVanMan said:


> They're not.


un

****ing

believable


what a farce.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

lycan said:


> Don't even think about trying to cling to "calibration" as a last ditch excuse. OF COURSE any test machine needs to be calibrated. As do your EARS, before you can trust anything you HEAR. But nobody ever seems to acknowledge _this_ point ...
> 
> Finally, without reading all the comments in detail ... how different _are_ the results from the newly-fixed machine, versus the old version?





MiniVanMan said:


> They're not.



In reality, WHAT about the Kilppel can be calibrated to improve the spec that would show something THIS out of tolerance ?

Are we REALLY using this subwoofer as a reason to send this machine back for "calibration?" We are not talking Gnat's asses here.


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## WOOFERNTWEETER (Aug 16, 2010)

all first place USACI SQ.... ULTRA 4-1600's strapped on 8-LV 12's and a 4200 for the mids and tweets... just listen to some ULTRA gear and stop hating!!!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

WOOFERNTWEETER said:


> all first place USACI SQ.... ULTRA 4-1600's strapped on 8-LV 12's and a 4200 for the mids and tweets... just listen to some ULTRA gear and stop hating!!!


Stop yapping and say something intelligent. This side of the forum is here for more than your pictures. We all have pictures.


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## WOOFERNTWEETER (Aug 16, 2010)

Oliver said:


> Where can I send my money?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you asked for pics... you got them


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

WOOFERNTWEETER said:


> all first place USACI SQ.... ULTRA 4-1600's strapped on 8-LV 12's and a 4200 for the mids and tweets... just listen to some ULTRA gear and stop hating!!!


Because NOTHING says sound quality like eight 12" subwoofers and one pair of 6 1/2 speakers and a pair of tweeters. Yeah, that SCREAMS SQ to me.


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## WOOFERNTWEETER (Aug 16, 2010)

MiniVanMan said:


> Because NOTHING says sound quality like eight 12" subwoofers and one pair of 6 1/2 speakers and a pair of tweeters. Yeah, that SCREAMS SQ to me.


if i used more mids and tweets i would mess the staging all up silly...


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Hahaha you guys are totally begging to see my 6th grade spelling bee trophy, aren't you? It's actually a little golden bee. I hear superjay has a trophy that looks like a bunch of guys surrounding a smaller guy in the middle, with the enscription "143: new world record". Don't know what that's all about.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

chad said:


> In reality, WHAT about the Kilppel can be calibrated to improve the spec that would show something THIS out of tolerance ?
> 
> Are we REALLY using this subwoofer as a reason to send this machine back for "calibration?" We are not talking Gnat's asses here.


Maybe there's a pot in there somewhere that could be calibrated/tweaked? 

Chad have you ever sent ANYTHING electronic in for repair or calibration to the manufacturer, and not received a detailed document stating what was repaired/calibrated in return?

Isn't that like a "Bureau of Weights and Measures" requirement? Especially, in the U.S under FCC regulations??

Repairs of original equipment that are FCC approved need to be documented and can be audited. I know it's an FDA requirement as well for equipment that falls under FDA jurisdiction. The Klippel wasn't produced in the U.S. but still falls under FCC regulations for use in the U.S., and also those silly Germans are a teensy bit anal about products they produce and distribute. 

I'm sure wherever the Klippel is from (Northern Europe), there's a national governing standard for calibrations and repairs, and minus that, there's still the "International Bureau of Weights and Standards".

Since the Klippel does not have a calibration cycle, anything involving a modification to the unit would have to be documented as a repair, and thus be documented as such and as stated be subject to audit. 

I like the fact that some of these yahoos think this is our first rodeo.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> Hahaha you guys are totally begging to see my 6th grade spelling bee trophy, aren't you? It's actually a little golden bee.


Show it please !


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Ooooh, I'll show you my 7th grade science fair trophy if you show me your spelling bee one. I built a miniature model particle accelerator based on Fermi Lab with electromagnets and beebees. Didn't quite get the acceleration of a near light speed atomic particle, but they got the idea.

Man, I'm so stoked now knowing that my old trophies mean something again. I mean, as an adult you stop getting trophies. How am I to ever evaluate my accomplishments without somebody lavishing trophies on me like when I was 12?


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

MiniVanMan said:


> Chad have you ever sent ANYTHING electronic in for repair or calibration to the manufacturer, and not received a detailed document stating what was repaired/calibrated in return?


No sometimes they check it and I merely pay big money for a calibration certificate. But rules are rules.



MiniVanMan said:


> Isn't that like a "Bureau of Weights and Measures" requirement? Especially, in the U.S under FCC regulations??


Yes



MiniVanMan said:


> Repairs of original equipment that are FCC approved need to be documented and can be audited.


Damn skippy, even the **** I have here under my license. They can walk right in, search and seize.



MiniVanMan said:


> The Klippel wasn't produced in the U.S. but still falls under FCC regulations for use in the U.S., and also those silly Germans are a teensy bit anal about products they produce and distribute.


It's covered under FCC part 15 stating that it cannot be an incidental radiator.



MiniVanMan said:


> I'm sure wherever the Klippel is from (Northern Europe), there's a national governing standard for calibrations and repairs, and minus that, there's still the "International Bureau of Weights and Standards".


Likely but I'm unsure of the standards.



MiniVanMan said:


> Since the Klippel does not have a calibration cycle, anything involving a modification to the unit would have to be documented as a repair, and thus be documented as such and as stated be subject to audit.


One would think, but said docs have not been furnished although discussed.



MiniVanMan said:


> I like the fact that some of these yahoos think this is our first rodeo.


Word to your mother. But ironically we are all morons.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I have car audio trophies, bicycle racing trophies, pinewood derby trophies, and shooting trophies.

Trophies like money.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

MiniVanMan said:


> Ooooh, I'll show you my 7th grade science fair trophy if you show me your spelling bee one. I built a miniature model particle accelerator based on Fermi Lab with electromagnets and beebees. Didn't quite get the acceleration of a near light speed atomic particle, but they got the idea.
> 
> Man, I'm so stoked now knowing that my old trophies mean something again. I mean, as an adult you stop getting trophies. How am I to ever evaluate my accomplishments without somebody lavishing trophies on me like when I was 12?


I need an authority to tell me whether or not my audio system sounds good. If they like it, I get a trophy and then I remove all the gear and start all over.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> I need an authority to tell me whether or not my audio system sounds good. If they like it, I get a trophy and then I remove all the gear and start all over.


Standard operating procedure.. like blowjobs in porn.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

chad said:


> I have bicycle racing trophies, pinewood derby trophies


*Show em , please!*


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Oliver said:


> *Show em , please!*


Soon enough, it's time for the third gen of pinewood derby winnar 

About time to go to the attic for the goods.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

The lil guy has a winnar in his corner!!


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Oliver said:


> The lil guy has a winnar in his corner!!


All the dad's have their old cars so we are gonna do an old-skool race. Given the fact that that there is unfair competition beings that the engineering school is so close they now do son AND father races... which sucks given the fact that the guy that helped me make mine was an engineer for thiokol on the MX missile team.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Pinewood Derby Cars - Designs and Plans - Speed Tips - Supplies



> In this pinewood derby, nearly all the time-honored racing rules were eliminated. ... The next best time, by an electric car, was 2.2 seconds


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I've never even heard of Andy Jones.


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

ChrisB said:


> I've never even heard of Andy Jones.


I hear the Ultra stuff sounds great with ell pee amps especially if you send your ultra sub in to be modified!


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

chad said:


> Standard operating procedure.. like blowjobs in porn.




Thankyou for my latest sig addition.


----------



## bass_lover1 (Dec 10, 2005)

superjay said:


> and in a car magazine the reviews are written with a large degree of subjectivity. They give their opinion of the car based on previous experience with other cars in that class. That may be the most important part. i want to know how it sounds, not how it responds to pink noise and warble bursts.


Except a Klippel removes the human subjectivity _completely_, so no it really isn't.


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

chad said:


> All the dad's have their old cars so we are gonna do an old-skool race. Given the fact that that there is unfair competition beings that the engineering school is so close they now do son AND father races... which sucks given the fact that the guy that helped me make mine was an engineer for thiokol on the MX missile team.


Did he design O-rings? :laugh4:


----------



## B&K (Sep 20, 2005)

MiniVanMan said:


> I'm sure wherever the Klippel is from (Northern Europe), there's a national governing standard for calibrations and repairs, and minus that, there's still the "International Bureau of Weights and Standards".


Yes, PTB. Just like our NIST. On top of that the items to calibrate/verify on the Klippel are very simple electronics. You can change a slope and offset perhaps but nothing else as they are intrinsically linear. Traceability will guarantee absolute numbers, but even if it didn't go through a full calibration a two point system check will surely expose any problems and if not adjusted would then show the slope change of any of the electronics. Even with the slope off significantly the Klippel results would show the same story, just shifted on an axis. Arguing that it is faulty is nonsense.

Unlike your ear/brain, measurement equipment can't lie.


----------



## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> All speakers sound the same.


A watt is a watt. Pay Richard Clark $10,000 and he'll show you.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

IamMurph said:


> A watt is a watt. Pay Richard Clark $10,000 and he'll show you.


What? He was joking about all speakers sounding the same...not talking about amps here!


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

IamMurph said:


> A watt is a watt. Pay Richard Clark $10,000 and he'll show you.


Or we can pay you for your products and not have anything proven. Funny that you're going to bash Richard Clark for being money motivated when you're here to defend a product that you sell, that is under attack and therefore so is your bottom line.

Funny that the only time you come around is when YOUR self interest is under the gun. Then you STILL have nothing to offer an actual intelligent conversation.


----------



## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

IamMurph said:


> A watt is a watt. Pay Richard Clark $10,000 and he'll show you.


Well you are correct. Plus, that $10,000 would be better spent hosting a Sound Domain get-together circle jerk with the LV-10 being the cookie. That would be so 15 years ahead of the times.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

didn't Gary and Matt both come up with the same results?

Kind of makes any point by anyone 'hating' on Gary moot, now, doesn't it?
I mean, if we discount Gary's results simply because he did them, don't we also automatically throw out Matt's results, too?
So, the way I see it there's no 'sides' to take here. Gary is probably an example of an extremist DIY'r where Matt would be on the other end of the spectrum (though, I'll venture to say not on the _opposite_ end of that spectrum). 


Results are results. They don't lie. Not when obtained twice, through different sources (unless the unit is entirely flawed, but I think that has been beaten to death here). Furthermore, I don't see the company disputing the results themselves (maybe none of the company teammates are able to decypher the klippel results).
At the end of the day the customer buys the product for any number of reasons (ie: "it costs 'a lot' so it must be good", "I don't care about science, I go by what I hear", "I just want to try it to see how what I hear compares to the data", etc, etc). If the company stays afloat depends on more than just what they offer, albeit to a lesser extent.

I do know one thing for sure... I'm seeing a whole lot of **** flinging, but I've yet to see Gary's question answered: If the product was designed to some sort of desired distortion spec, why? Is there any explanation for how or why the final product is what it is? Was there any data taken while the idea was thought out, or was there only auditory tests? I'm fine with whatever was done but it would be nice to at least see someone explain it rather than slinging **** all over the place and letting cronies talk for them. This goes for both sides of the fence.

Yea, this place isn't what it used to be... and the #1 reason for that is because of what we're seeing here. A whole lot of **** flinging.
As far as listening tests, that's what the member review section is for. I'm sure there are plenty of drivers that don't spec out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it doesn't stop people who own the product from liking it and it doesn't stop some of them from writing a nice review for it.

Edit: needed " __ "

Edit #2: Apologies in advance, I'm not sure if Matt or someone else at ID did the testing. I think his name is Matt. I don't know him. Just calling him by the name of the person I thought did the tests. If it wasn't "Matt", then fill in that name with the name of the person who did the testing. 

- Cheers! 
?


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Wow, Basher and AJ are having fun over on SoundDomain. Still have NO rebuttals to ANYTHING I've said. Now we're just going to revert to typical SD nonsense that degrades to name calling. 

So, I want to clear something up. I could care less about car audio as a medium. It just so happens that most of my music listening (of which I'm passionate about) happens in my car, so the "car" gets most of my attention when it comes to audio. But car audio as a medium means no more to me that pro-audio, or home audio. All any of those mean is where the audio is actually played. Each has it's inherent challenges, and each has it's benefits, but ALL are still subject to the laws of physics. The laws of physics don't change just because the medium has.

So, that being said, if the whole car audio industry went bye-bye, I'd be okay. Because, it's still electronics, and I'll figure out a way to make something work. Subwoofers, amps, processing units, speakers, cables, etc are not exclusive to car audio, like so many seem to think. In fact, every audio medium has them, and while some are specialized, the function, and physics behind them all is exactly the same. 

So, when somebody comes along and starts blathering on about some brand X has broken new ground I'm going to want to see proof, and I'm going put brand X up against, not just, car audio products, but all relevant products, across all mediums of audio reproduction. Because, frankly, it's all the same. Each product may be specialized in a particular way and that will be taken into account, but for the most part, and especially with subwoofers, it's JUST A SUBWOOFER. There are A LOT of subwoofers out there. A LOT. When you search beyond the car audio spectrum, you'll find more subwoofers than you could possibly EVER try out. Commodity parts are abundantly available to build subwoofers. There are various technologies available to build subwoofers. 

So, telling me that your subwoofer holds up to a lot of power means NOTHING. You're telling me that your subwoofer handles power better than a pro audio woofer that gets hammered on day and night by some console monkey at the local club playing rock concerts every night till people's ears bleed? 

You're subwoofer sounds better? Really, your subwoofer sounds better where? In and enclosure? Out of an enclosure? At 30 hz, at 80 hz? Where, and how? It's a subwoofer, 40 hz is 40 hz. There's no magic. Subwoofers rely on proper integration into a system. Car audio is the only medium that desires it's subsonic frequencies to be 30 db higher than the actual frequencies the human ear really cares about. If that's your goal, you don't need $300.00 "sound quality" subwoofers to do that. 

You subwoofer works in "x" sized enclosures". Again, so. So do so many other subwoofers. Again, what is setting your subwoofer apart from every other subwoofer that will work in that kind of enclosure? 

I was called clueless, but find it funny that NONE of that crowd has offered ANY evidence that supports a contrary argument. It's pretty simple. If I am wrong about the method used to develop the Ultra LV10, then supply your method that states the following:

"We chose an offset suspension, a higher inductance, and thus a higher inductive distortion, along with higher distortions created by the offset suspensions to achieve (fill in the rest)". 

That's all I'm asking. Tell me that the LV-10 is a product of research and an actual method in it's design, and not just a bunch of parts slapped together with some power handling tests to ensure it can handle an average idiot, though we know that the LV-10 is still susceptible to failure from a spectacular idiot. From EVERYTHING I've seen, and heard from the Ultra crowd, the LV10's "unique sound" was not planned in any manner, but just inherent in a cheap design. 

It's pretty simple. I've laid it out for you in a pretty detailed manner. Tell me where I'm clueless now. I know the truth. Marketing has been chosen over actual engineering. If that's wrong, have your "engineers" make the statement to the contrary.


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> Furthermore, I don't see the company disputing the results themselves (maybe none of the company teammates are able to decypher the klippel results).


To me, this is key. It's one thing to say, "Nah, Klippel sucks, don't believe it." It's an entirely different thing to say exactly which measurement is faulty, and produce some evidence (or even just a rationale!) that the measurement is wrong.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

yeah, we should tell people not to stick their dick in a blender cause it might hurt too...


----------



## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

MiniVanMan said:


> Or we can pay you for your products and not have anything proven. Funny that you're going to bash Richard Clark for being money motivated when you're here to defend a product that you sell, that is under attack and therefore so is your bottom line.
> 
> Funny that the only time you come around is when YOUR self interest is under the gun. Then you STILL have nothing to offer an actual intelligent conversation.


I guess I should have used [sarcasm] quotes[/sarcasm].

I do not work for Ultra. I am not trying to sell anything. I own a product I love. If you live in Dallas and want to hear my car, I'd love to demo it.

At one point I did do some work for Ultra but never was I a paid employee. All I see here is a bunch of hate from both sides.

As for the reason I came to check out this tread. Basher posted a link in SDOT. I hardly ever visit here hence the reason I am still listed as an Ultra Vendor.

I have never claimed to be a car audio god. I am a former security specialist. Bash me all you want.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

cajunner said:


> yeah, we should. If we're giving away dick blenders.


they weren't giving away blown subs... but this guy still managed to get his dick caught in the blender..

some things are so elementary they came up with a school for them.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

MiniVanMan's argument is not only verified by cutting edge testing tools but it's also incentive proof. If you start at the average person's desire to make a quick and easy buck everything lines up perfectly. 

Let's see what the incentives look like for Klippel testing. Historically, no speaker was able to achieve a larger xmax than advertised. Other than a few instances where the inductance was lower than in the manufacturer's white sheet all results AT BEST verify the advertised claim. 

A manufacturer that knows speaker design can benefit from using the Klippel to design the speaker, tweak the suspension to match the BL curve, center etc. However, given the sheer ignorance in the audio field and 'golden ears' the manufacturer does best in not publishing Klippel results, using cheap parts and slapping them together. 

Just look at how many users view the Klippel section over the product review section. Sure, this sections only deals with speakers and not amps, heads etc but the sheer number of viewers is minuscule. Out of these how many can actually understand results? Now, if one does understand at best the Klippel only verifies manufacturer claims. 

POINT: there is no incentive to underrate speakers. The end user in car audio (heck HT as well) is too clueless to test a speaker properly. Furthermore they trust their ears a heck of a lot more than they should. 

The market equilibrium is one where the manufacturer prays on the ignorant to sell sub-par product and depending on advertising power at high cost as well. Even worse, when some users go out of their way to test and bring awareness, the car audio fans resist with idiotic claims, and useless trophies. 

Heck, did anybody even realize the RE is as low on this Ultra sub than the one before? Didn't the manuf. claim that was sign of damage? Yet, this sub and the one before tested exactly the same. Obviously, there is no damage to either of the subs, they simply perform the way they do...


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

*The Klippel DOES have ears!*

And they are way, WAY better than yours or mine.

Over several decades of audio (dating well back to before any of us were born), audio engineers have painstakingly measured and analyzed parameters that determine WHAT we hear, and WHY we hear it. Thousands of audio engineers ... using well-controlled listening tests among thousands of subjects, as well as advanced mathematics like Fourier Analysis ... devoted _entire careers_ measuring and correlating that which we MEASURE, to that which we HEAR.

So when we discuss things like : frequency response, transient response, harmonic distortion, intermod distortion, etc. for piston-range drivers, we are discussing EXACTLY what we hear. Many will not understand these concepts ... that's fine, but make no mistake : these concepts are NOT some geek-speak developed by labrats with nothing better to do. They are the language we use to determine and describe EXACTLY _what_ we hear, and _why_ we hear it.

Does the Klippel have ears? You better believe it does. Not yours, not mine ... and certainly not the ears of some salesman selling snakeoil. The Klippel has the combined "hearing" of thousands of audio engineers & test subjects, accumulated, correlated and analyzed over several decades of audio engineering.

The Klippel's ears are better than yours.

If you don't understand this, you have no business even _discussing_ anything related to audio.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

cajunner said:


> I think a bit of the blame should be on Lambros, as he didn't tell Lord Bacchus how to run a box of that design, and perhaps that's why he tried to let him off with a shipping error.


Ahhh but you see, a shipping error is far more desirable than user negligence. The clientele may not understand BL, CMS, RE but they do understand 1,000W power-handling. U devise an experiment of whatever difficulty and the product fails on the test bench, that's no good for business. Better to save face for all and blame UPS. There is however no evidence of shipping damage that can be verified. We do however have some evidence that the C.E.O. may not know how to design that box.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

cajunner you are far more optimistic than I am. I think lots of users do not want to vest enough time in learning how things work. Car audio enthusiasts often are too lazy to look up relevant information, they find it's much easier to throw lots of money at it, especially when expenses of this sort are praised in equally clueless circles. 

Talking about circles, have we ever met at so. cal. meets? LMK if you ever come to congregations, I'd love to chit chat.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Luke352 said:


> I hear the Ultra stuff sounds great with ell pee amps especially if you send your ultra sub in to be modified!


Oh snap, I guess you just ruled out yet another product line for me to try.:laugh: Not that it matters much because this is the first time I have gone more than 1 year without switching ANYTHING out in my Rustang and it has been my sole vehicle since April. So take that everyone who insulted me and said I would turn on yet another product by jumping on the latest forum fad, boner, bandwagon product.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> have we ever met at so. cal. meets?


Based on his SN, I'll assume that LA means Louisiana.

On the subject of Lord Bacchus, IIRC, he was parading around with trophies from his SPL wins. He shoulda known what happens below Fb.


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## DT053 (Mar 23, 2007)

Sorry guys not trying to interrupt your thread/conversation. idtech/Ant would it be possible to get a copy of the LSI file so I could export the data into the Auralization module? 

If not I totally understand.

Thanks
dT


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## DT053 (Mar 23, 2007)

Maybe I should have asked the guys at Ultra too since they made the sub. 

Just interested in looking at speaker data.

Thanks guys.

dT


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

the sky appear blue

grass appears green


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

I'm actually number 7 with 30,000 lets posts than Jay.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I am NUMBER ONE!!!! don't get that fawked up. I'm also a supermoderator, but I don't see how either are relevant


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

four characters


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

IDtech is the biggest star in this thread. Matt Borgardt is industry royalty.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

IamMurph said:


> IDtech is the biggest star in this thread. Matt Borgardt is industry royalty.


agreed.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

cajunner said:


> industry royalty must be none too happy with me, then...
> 
> I've been a squeaky wheel about the progress on the Klippel, and with exactly two products tested in well over a year's time..
> 
> well, you know..


they have a proper facility, but also have a company to run. If you want them to run more...ask. hell, if it's that big a deal i'll go down there and run tests while Matt goes to lunch.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

"industry royalty"   

now _that's_ about the funniest damn thing i've read in a long, long time!


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

lycan said:


> "industry royalty"
> 
> now _that's_ about the funniest damn thing i've read in a long, long time!


Why?


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

IamMurph said:


> Why?


cuz the very concept of "royalty" holds no meaning or value in discussions of scientific endeavors. For example : the very notion that something might be "true" or "valid" because "the king says so" is _laughable_, in a technical thread.

There's no room for gurus ... or "kings" ... in science.

Perhaps i'm missing something ... what power or authority would a "distinction of royalty" hold in a technical thread? (Please note : experience means very little, by itself, in a technical discussion ... especially if it's not accompanied by a logical mind with good reasoning skills)


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

Rich Coe
Larry Frederick
Jim Fosgate
James B Lansing (Altec Lansing, JBL)
Eric Stevens
Chris Yato
Gary Bell
Jeremy Carlson
Vanan Gail
Vance Dickason
so many more


These people are industry royalty...these are the people we look to for advice, inspiration, guidance (lansing may be dead, but we still look to him as an innovator)


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Names mean NOTHING in a technical discussion.

Zero. Zip. Nada.

It's a FUNDAMENTAL tenant of science : in a battle of reputation versus logic, reputation loses every time.

For example : an industry "king" (not a title bestowed by me) holds the Klippel for months upon months, testing maybe one driver. Excuses of being too busy, needing elaborate support equipment, an out-of-calibration machine, etc. abound. The machine is finally sent back to Germany, and returned _without_ a diagnostic report. Then FINALLY ... after the better part of a YEAR ... a test is done on a driver that was _also_ tested by the previous keeper, who got endless **** for crappy methods & procedures.

The results? The frickin test results are virtually identical.
(Correct me, if i've mis-represented the timeline somehow.)

Names & reputations mean NOTHING ... in comparison to sound application of the scientific method.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Vance Dickason reported in one of his books that someone else always had the final sayso on the sound of his various speaker stuffings.

She seemed to be able to discern what was pleasing to her.

His experience in music [ guitar ] and sound technical reasoning have made him invaluable to the art of sound reproduction.

I am quite sure he does not want to be addressed as Sir Vance.


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

... or, if you prefer, in THIS context (Klippel testing of drivers) you may choose to elevate MiniVanMan to the exalted status of god-king, based on _his_ now well-established record (and reputation) in this matter.

The choice is yours.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

King MiniVan


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

superjay said:


> Rich Coe
> Larry Frederick
> Jim Fosgate
> James B Lansing (Altec Lansing, JBL)
> ...


Yes but aren't those guys engineers? Not sure about Larry or a couple of others. So for engineers, science rather than title reigns supreme. Not that they can't be used as a reference.

Funny thing is from this thread all I have seen if one weeds through the ******** is that the Ultra sub in question is not a bad sub. Just that quite possibly there is nothing in it's design or manufacture that warrants the higher price.

I, as a consumer and from looking at all the "Which sub for me?" threads on this site would be well served by Klippel results. It would allow myself to research "my" future sub from all the others and compare it vs a"all the others". If there is one thing I have learned, it's the brand of sub for the most part means nothing. hell they are just subs. What? 2 octaves of pressurization? How many people have been swept up in the brand of the moment with great marketing. The T3's the RD's etc... that were epic in failure. Or even more important to me in this economy, getting the absolute most out of my hobby dollar. Does it make sense to spend 300-400 doallars when spending 100-200 gets me the same performance. What happens when I find that signature sound is not so great and I am already out the money, or a friend drives up with less money spent and it sounds better. That is in my opinion what this website was originally set up for. And it has succeeded for a long time. I may not agree with everything that has been posted, but the end result is its my dollar to spend and I will spend it how I like just as you will do the same. It's just nice to be able to see that sometimes, sometimes there are lower cost similar performing alternatives.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> they have a proper facility, but also have a company to run. If you want them to run more...ask. hell, if it's that big a deal i'll go down there and run tests while Matt goes to lunch.


MiniVanMan graciously offerred his expertise in the running of The Klippel which was greatly appreciated until a test was performed that revealed we needed a new and Royal Tester :laugh:


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

if the only issue with the Ultra is the price, fine, but a JL W6 is similar in price and performs similarly. The greatest thing about the USA is that you don't HAVE to buy it. you can NOT buy it because you think it's too expensive, but saying a product is crap because you think it's crap is just ignorant.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

superjay said:


> if the only issue with the Ultra is the price, fine, but a JL W6 is similar in price and performs similarly. The greatest thing about the USA is that you don't HAVE to buy it. you can NOT buy it because you think it's too expensive, but saying a product is crap because you think it's crap is just ignorant.


The original w6 maybe. MAYBE.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> if the only issue with the Ultra is the price, fine, but a JL W6 is similar in price and performs similarly. The greatest thing about the USA is that you don't HAVE to buy it. you can NOT buy it because you think it's too expensive, but saying a product is crap because you think it's crap is just ignorant.


exactly who in this thread says a product is crap simply because "they think so"?

Do you really equate a Klippel test result with someone's uninformed "opinion"? In your mind, these two are _really_ the same thing?


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Superjay what are your thoughts on this?

Dynamometer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> A dynamometer or "dyno" for short, is a device for measuring force, moment of force (torque), or power. For example, the power produced by an engine, motor or other rotating prime mover can be calculated by simultaneously measuring torque and rotational speed (RPM)





> Custom ZO6 Vette on the Dynojet Dynamometer - loud and proud


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYJhYe4pntY

These are used to backup claims of what the product can do !


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

Oliver said:


> Superjay what are your thoughts on this?
> 
> Dynamometer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


clearly ... it's IDENTICAL to the "opinion" of somebody who never rode in the car


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

1 horsepower = 746watts 

what do you want to know? I'm not a mechanical engineer, so my expertise is limited.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

I would hazard to say at this price point , Your Price: $394.40 EA (1-3) 
that i would prefer a voice coil that is 5 inches in diameter

Morel Ultimate UW 1058 10" Subwoofer | Parts-Express.com


> *VCdia: 5.1"





> *Xmax: 12.5 mm


And now…the Ultimate 10" subwoofer. Morel applied their years of experience and creative genius to produce a world-beating sub-bass driver. Extra-large diameter 5" voice coil, free-breathing cast frame, and symmetrical suspension system guarantee the ultimate in subwoofer performance. Specifications: *Power handling: 500 watts RMS/750 watts max *VCdia: 5.1" *Le: 1.33 mH @ 1KHz *Impedance: 8 ohms *Re: 6.8 ohms *Frequency range: 20-1,000 Hz *Fs: 26 Hz *SPL: 85.8 dB 1W/1m *Vas: 1.44 cu. ft. *Qms: 1.72 *Qes: 0.58 *Qts: 0.43 *Xmax: 12.5 mm *Dimensions: A: 10.35", B: 9.5", C: 5.84".

* Uniflow™ aluminum diecast chassis
* High-flux double ferrite magnet system
* 5.1" Hexatech™ aluminum voice coil with 1-1/2" winding length
* Very high Xmax for extended bass response
* One piece paper cone/center dome
* Accucenter™ self-centering cone assembly
* PFS™ Progression Field Symmetry spider/surround engineering


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

ah, wasn't sure what you were asking....a Dyno test will give you a lot of info about torque and acceleration, but doesn't tell you anything about the actual driving experience


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

cajunner said:


> like having a ringer come in on a card game, you wouldn't know there are stars in our midst...


Royalty comment came from your comment. 

Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.” [1] Some authorities sharply distinguish sarcasm from irony,[2] however others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony.[3]

It is first recorded in English in 1579, in an annotation to The Shepheardes Calender: October:

Tom piper) An Ironicall [Sarcasmus], spoken in derision of these rude wits, whych make more account of a ryming Rybaud,[4] then of skill grounded upon learning and judgment.
—Edmund Spenser[5]

It comes from the ancient Greek σαρκάζω (sarkazo) meaning 'to tear flesh' but the ancient Greek word for the rhetorical concept of taunting was instead χλευασμός (chleyasmόs) Sarcasm appears several times in the Old Testament,; for example it seems to underlie the rhetorical questions of Achish, king of Gath::

Lo, you see the man is mad; why then have you brought him to me? Do I lack madmen, that you have brought this fellow to play the madman in my presence?
—I Sam 21:10-15[6]

Contents
[hide]

* 1 Usage
* 2 Understanding
* 3 Vocal indication
* 4 Sarcasm punctuation
* 5 References
* 6 See also
* 7 External links

[edit] Usage

Dictionary.com describes the use of sarcasm thus:

In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes. It may be used in an indirect manner, and have the form of irony, as in “What a fine musician you turned out to be!” or it may be used in the form of a direct statement, “You couldn't play one piece correctly if you had two assistants.” The distinctive quality of sarcasm is present in the spoken word and manifested chiefly by vocal inflection ...[7]

Hostile, critical comments may be expressed in an ironic way, such as saying "don't work too hard" to a lazy worker. The use of irony introduces an element of humour which may make the criticism seem more polite and less aggressive.
[edit] Understanding

Understanding the subtlety of this usage requires second-order interpretation of the speaker's intentions. This sophisticated understanding is lacking in some people with brain damage, dementia and autism,[8] and this perception has been located by MRI in the right parahippocampal gyrus.[9][10]

Cultural perspectives on sarcasm vary widely with more than a few cultures and linguistic groups finding it offensive to varying degrees and/or a sign of low intelligence or sophistication. RFC 850, the email standard, even includes a warning to be especially careful with it as it "may not travel well".[11]
[edit] Vocal indication

In English, sarcasm in actors is often distinguished from sincere speech by speaking more slowly and with a lower pitch. But other research shows that there are many ways that real speakers signal sarcastic intentions. One study found that in Cantonese sarcasm is indicated by raising the fundamental frequency of one's voice.[12]
[edit] Sarcasm punctuation
Main article: Irony punctuation

Though in the English language there is no standard accepted method to denote irony or sarcasm in written conversation, several forms of punctuation have been proposed. Among the oldest and frequently attested are the percontation point--furthered by Henry Denham in the 1580s--and the irony mark--furthered by Alcanter de Brahm in the 19th century. Both of these marks were represented visually by a backwards question mark (unicode U+2E2E). A more recent example is the snark mark. Each of these punctuation marks are primarily used to indicate that a sentence should be understood at a second level. A bracketed exclamation point and/or question mark as well as scare quotes are also sometimes used to express irony or sarcasm.

In certain Ethiopic languages, sarcasm and unreal phrases are indicated at the end of a sentence with a sarcasm mark called temherte slaq, a character that looks like an inverted exclamation point ¡.

10W6 has a retail of $440
LV10 has a retail of $329

Are they similar subs? No

Does it cost more to make a product in the US? Yes
Is it cheaper to build a lesser quality product overseas? Yes
Does Lambros want to make a lesser quality product? No

All I see here is a pissing match. The sub was tested and we have results. Does it alter my opinion of how it sounds? No

I'd love for Minivan to call Lambros and talk to him without the fanboys commenting on everything. I do believe I posted his number before. It's on the website.

Simple facts:
Original sub tested
Then it was given away
New owner built a box that wasn't the best choice
Overpowered sub
Destroyed sub
Fanboy's attacked
Lambros attacked back (not the best idea)
Issue died and life went on
Enter new tester and a retest was done at Ant's request
Wanted to give Ultra a second chance
Results are out and the attacks happen again
Anyone need popcorn

Everyone chill out..........

It's a good sub that plays the hell out of all kinds of music. It's being used by lots of people from the average consumer to the professionals. Is it right for everyone? Well I guess you'll either go listen to one or make an opinion based on what others say.

Just my two cents


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

Oliver said:


> I would hazard to say at this price point , Your Price: $394.40 EA (1-3)
> that i would prefer a voice coil that is 5 inches in diameter
> 
> Morel Ultimate UW 1058 10" Subwoofer | Parts-Express.com


why? I've heard the Ultimate...there's nothing special about it. it sounds very good...very good, but i can get something much more efficient and laterally stable.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I'm on a lot of forums...several are car audio related. I use the same name on every forum I'm on so there is no confusion as to who i am.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

actually, the only forum I've been banned from is Peter Euro's when I went there to fawk with him. I think my login was petereuroisadouche


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> why? I've heard the Ultimate...there's nothing special about it. it sounds very good...very good, but i can get something much more efficient and laterally stable.


I don't doubt you can buy a speaker that has technological innovations at all.

The W7's have several patents pending...

The failure of the "Nice" sounding sub is it's price point ratio to off-the-shelf parts ratio


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Superjay I have subwoofers that never made it into production and quite a few others that have.

I live for low end [ infrasonic frequencies ].


----------



## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

superjay said:


> 1 horsepower = 746watts
> 
> what do you want to know? I'm not a mechanical engineer, so my expertise is limited.


Well, as a mechanical engineer, I'd like to point out your expertise is EXTREMELY limited.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

since no new technology is being introduced all the parts are GOING to be off the shelf. That's true of almost all subs. Since most every variation of material, compliance, size and shape is already out there having a part custom made would be unnecessarily expensive. The only parts that really need to be tooled now are baskets, backplates and diaphragms. 

Aside from that, there has been no admission by the manufacturer that any parts are off the shelf. It has been purely speculative. That's the biggest problem here...speculation turned to fact in the minds of the people here. That's how conspiracy theories are made.


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

IamMurph said:


> It's a good sub that plays the hell out of all kinds of music. It's being used by lots of people from the average consumer to the professionals. Is it right for everyone? Well I guess you'll either go listen to one or make an opinion based on what others say.


once _again_, somebody's _completely_ not understanding the results & value of a detailed, unbiased, scientific TEST.

Klippel results are not "the same" as somebody's 'opinion'. The test results can not be "tossed into the same basket" as an "opinion based on what others say". A thorough Klippel test (now done twice, with virtually identical results ... even though the first tester was not of "sufficient royalty" to gain respect) is NOT the same ... not the same ballpark, not the same league, not even the same game ... as somebody coming on a forum and offering an "uninformed _opinion_" about the sub.

I'll say it again ... what a farce.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

superjay said:


> Aside from that, there has been no admission by the manufacturer that any parts are off the shelf. It has been purely speculative. That's the biggest problem here...speculation turned to fact in the minds of the people here. That's how conspiracy theories are made.


Speculation based on a whole lot of evidence. If the parts of the subwoofer were specifically tooled, that denotes the designer started with a blank slate. If that's the case, the subwoofer is a complete fail because of the mechanical offsets and lack of any sort of elevated technology.

Hell, at that price point they could have AT LEAST thrown some copper in there to reduce the inductance. Nope, not when the goal is pure profit.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> since no new technology is being introduced all the parts are GOING to be off the shelf. That's true of almost all subs. Since most every variation of material, compliance, size and shape is already out there having a part custom made would be unnecessarily expensive. The only parts that really need to be tooled now are baskets, backplates and diaphragms.
> 
> Aside from that, there has been no admission by the manufacturer that any parts are off the shelf. It has been purely speculative. That's the biggest problem here...speculation turned to fact in the minds of the people here. That's how conspiracy theories are made.


*DUDE it has been measured and found wanting [nothing more to say, really ].*


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

found wanting what?


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> found wanting what?


better results from the Klippel

after dynoing the sub it ain't got $120.00 dollars worth of sound


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

** Your Price$349.99*

JL Audio 8W7-3 W7 Series 8" 3-ohm subwoofer at Crutchfield Signature

I have a BNIB 8W7 I'll sell you for LV prices?

figure *$1050.00* {S&H is extra}

pm me, so I can get your address


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

what results do YOU think it should have had? What do YOU think needs to change to make the sub worth the price listed? Just saying "these results are lacking" isn't really a reason


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> what results do YOU think it should have had? What do YOU think needs to change to make the sub worth the price listed? Just saying "these results are lacking" isn't really a reason


Please read all of MiniVanMans post to help you in understanding why said sub is a failure


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I didn't ask why HE thought it was lacking...I asked why YOU thought it was lacking. is ti compliance? is it the way the spider sits? is it because the spider is upside down? (it is). is it because of the materials? is it the magnet? gap? shorting ring? top plate? pole vent? former? placement of the VC? WHAT DO YOU THINK


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

or are you just jumping on the bandwagon with whatever HE said?


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> or are you just jumping on the bandwagon with whatever HE said?


whatever :laugh:

Look I'm sellin ... U buyin 

I need your addy and $1,050.00

Thank You for understanding that BS is well { *stinky *}


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

way to answer the questions


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> I didn't ask why HE thought it was lacking...I asked why YOU thought it was lacking. is ti compliance? is it the way the spider sits? is it because the spider is upside down? (it is). is it because of the materials? is it the magnet? gap? shorting ring? top plate? pole vent? former? placement of the VC? WHAT DO YOU THINK


Here are my thoughts

1] If a subwoofer can be produced that costs less and measures better , I'm in !

If you tell me you are an engineer and not a marketeer , i'm going to need to see your pigskin ... That's how I roll


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

_still_ equating "opinions" to unbiased, scientific tests ...

the sub in question is not "lacking" because somebody "said so" 

(and following down that rathole of ignorance, we can't trust minivan's "opinion", naturally, because he is not of sufficient royalty ... see how this goes? When you don't get the science, it's ALL a matter of opinion and hearsay)

unbelievable.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I have read this thread over and again...I still have yet to see any valid scientific reasons for the woofer not being any good. All I have seen is "the tests don't lie" and "the tests are bad" and "you're a douche"...well...if you can't give be valid scientific reason WHY the tests are bad and WHAT CAN BE DONE to CHANGE the test, then all you're selling is snake oil


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

You will be getting your monies worth >>>>

How would you like it shipped ?

UPS, USPS, FED EX ,etc..,

Can I link you to a testimonial ?



> Nine patents. In the world of “me too” engineering, JL Audio’s 8W7 has nine things unique enough to be granted patents.





> *Simply put, the JL Audio 8W7 is the best damn 8 inch subwoofer ever mad*e. Yes it’s expensive, but who cares? What is so amazing is that it doesn’t sound like an eight inch woofer. In fact, it performs like a great sounding 10 to 12 inch woofer. *It also has the performance numbers to back that up.*


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

really? sounds like propaganda to me... 

All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach. 

and I think the best 8 inch sub ever made was the Eclipse 8808...it tests better on the Kilppel


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> I have read this thread over and again...I still have yet to see any valid scientific reasons for the woofer not being any good. All I have seen is "the tests don't lie" and "the tests are bad" and "you're a douche"...well...if you can't give be valid scientific reason WHY the tests are bad and WHAT CAN BE DONE to CHANGE the test, then all you're selling is snake oil


do you EVER post anything that even makes a bit of sense?

We're not the ones SELLING anything. We are not the ones trying to profit, financially, from consumer ignorance. We've got NOTHING to sell ... be it snake oil, or gold.

High levels of nonlinear inductance means high levels of harmonic (and possibly intermod) distortion at higher frequencies, perhaps within the upper range of the driver's intended bandwidth. What can be done to fix it? Try some copper shorting rings ... a very well-known technique for minimizing inductance, and inductance modulation.

These issues have already been mentioned in this thread. It's not the same as an "opinion". It's not true & valid because somebody here on diyma "said so". We're not taking somebody's "word for it".

Is that distinction really lost on you ... still ?


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

you still haven't answered the question


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

lycan said:


> do you EVER post anything that even makes a bit of sense?
> 
> We're not the ones SELLING anything. We are not the ones trying to profit, financially, from consumer ignorance. We've got NOTHING to sell ... be it snake oil, or gold.
> 
> ...


how high do you intend to run a sub? I have a 9th order digital crossover on mine at 56Hz...anything above that needs to be handled my the mids. that's a veritable brick wall. nobody buying a sub in this class is going to runtheir crossover above 80Hz anyway. If you really want your sub to reproduce frequencies higher than that you have some severely skewed notions of a sub


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> you still haven't answered the question


yes, it has been answered many times.

you just don't _understand_ the answer, because it wasn't given to you by someone of "sufficient royalty".

Those who equate biased, profit-motivated "opinions" with unbiased, scientific tests will _never_ understand the answer 

I think there's a sticky somewhere nearby about "understanding Klippel test results". I recommend you take a look.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I've been using Klippel for years professionally. extrapolating information from test results is part of my job. I do my job very well and am very good at it. Matt at ID knows me very well, so if you have any questions about my pedigree please ask


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> I've been using Klippel for years professionally. extrapolating information from test results is part of my job. I do my job very well and am very good at it. Matt at ID knows me very well, so if you have any questions about my pedigree please ask


no need.

EDIT : but still relying heavily on that "name dropping", i see (we know how much "royalty" matters to you)  thanks for not disappointing ...


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> how high do you intend to run a sub? I have a 9th order digital crossover on mine at 56Hz...anything above that needs to be handled my the mids. that's a veritable brick wall. nobody buying a sub in this class is going to runtheir crossover above 80Hz anyway. If you really want your sub to reproduce frequencies higher than that you have some severely skewed notions of a sub


Is it your contention that the sub in question should not be used above 56Hz? If so, that conclusion may in fact be supported by the Klippel test results


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I think I said sub frequencies should never be above 80Hz...in which case the LV10 would still be fantastic. If you're going to run your subs into the 200 and 300Hz ranges you need to seriously reevaluate your system, and knowledge of audio. Even Home audio subs don't usually run above 110hz.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> I've been using Klippel for years professionally. extrapolating information from test results is part of my job. I do my job very well and am very good at it. Matt at ID knows me very well, so if you have any questions about my pedigree please ask





> Nav Tv
> Approved Vendor
> Upgrade Your Membership!
> 
> ...


Superjay can you extrapolate on the above highlighted material?

Thank You


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

lycan said:


> no need.
> 
> EDIT : but still relying heavily on that "name dropping", i see (we know how much "royalty" matters to you)  thanks for not disappointing ...


you all know Matt, so i used him as an example. if you want me to name drop there are much bigger names I could be using.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> I think I said sub frequencies should never be above 80Hz...in which case the LV10 would still be fantastic. If you're going to run your subs into the 200 and 300Hz ranges you need to seriously reevaluate your system, and knowledge of audio. Even Home audio subs don't usually run above 110hz.


Reggae can be a full body massage 



> If your subwoofer's top frequency is 180hz, then don't set the crossover to 200hz, ... but reduce the single strength in a slope (x dbs per octave) ... for music I'd be inclined to use as low cross over frequency as possible to .... Jungle, jazzstep, etc - and to think it all started because I loved reggae n ska.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> I think I said sub frequencies should never be above 80Hz...in which case the LV10 would still be fantastic. If you're going to run your subs into the 200 and 300Hz ranges you need to seriously reevaluate your system, and knowledge of audio. Even Home audio subs don't usually run above 110hz.


guess what can TELL YOU about how high you can operate a sub?

YES ... the INDUCTANCE 

Now ... how do we know about the sub's inductance? Do we just take "somebody's word for it" ? Read a few "opinions" on the internet about how high people run theirs?

OR ... is there some other way? An unbiased way, to determine the inductance of a sub? Might this "other way" be _fundamentally different_ than an "opinion" on a message board?

What could it be? 

Or, do we have no choice but to wait for the people of proper royalty to tell us how high to run them?


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

not that you'll care, but Derek (and NavTV in general) and Lambros have had a falling out. Right about the time of that post there was a financial issue between the companies, as NavTV was going to distribute for Ultra, and there were differences of opinion.

Derek is one of the people to introduce me to the line, and will be one of the first to tell you it is an incredible company with fantastic engineering but poor marketing. Thus the need for a relationship such as that to begin with. 

Since I work for a Chinese company (my offices are in Hong Kong and Jiangmen) I know first hand that sourcing from China does not necessarily mean off the shelf. It just means less expensive...although, this is also going to now be something for you to attack because you have no real argument other than that.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> you all know Matt, so i used him as an example. if you want me to name drop there are much bigger names I could be using.


PLEASE DO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That will convince me


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

Jesus, you people have no idea how to argue with facts, do you? personal attacks, and pejoratives don't make for a proper discussion


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> Jesus, you people have no idea how to argue with facts, do you? personal attacks, and pejoratives don't make for a proper discussion


we won't know until you present a fact to argue with.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

lycan said:


> PLEASE DO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That will convince me


fine...I was groomed under Rich Coe at Eclipse when I came on the the manufacturing side of this industry working in Product Planning. He is still a very good friend of mine. he taught me how to use Klippel and how to use the results along with other tests to make a speaker better. He also taught me LinearX, LEAP and AP. as well as application of DC-DC power supplies and A, B, AB, C and D class amplifiers...


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

lycan said:


> we won't know until you present a fact to argue with.


I see...you're out of weapons...your hero isn't here right now, so all you can do is attack me personally.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> fine...I was groomed under Rich Coe at Eclipse when I came on the the manufacturing side of this industry working in Product Planning. He is still a very good friend of mine. he taught me how to use Klippel and how to use the results along with other tests to make a speaker better. He also taught me LinearX, LEAP and AP. as well as application of DC-DC power supplies and A, B, AB, C and D class amplifiers...


wow ... i was SO wrong.

With that kind of royalty, i will now trust everything you say.

Forget data. Forget the scientific method. Forget unbiased testing.

Names & reputations are now, suddenly, ALL that matters in a technical thread.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> I see...you're out of weapons...your hero isn't here right now, so all you can do is attack me personally.


ONCE AGAIN ... strong reliance on kings & heros (in a technical thread).

*EVERYTHING comes down to "who said what" in your world, doesn't it?*

But pray tell, who is my hero? Please don't hold out on me ...


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

you two can't seem to come up with thoughts of your own...you're repeating something that peter euro shill keeps spouting. You completely ignored what the real issue is with that sub (read my posts...I've typed it here)

if you really think subs should run at 300 Hz we're done here. if you can't make a mid play down to 80Hz you need to leave this forum, the industry, and all your future audio work up to experienced professionals. 

It's after 11, I have to get up in the morning. I'm going to bed. I'll respond to you tomorrow evening after I finish with family stuff.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> fine...I was groomed under Rich Coe at Eclipse when I came on the the manufacturing side of this industry working in Product Planning. He is still a very good friend of mine. * he taught me how to use Klippel *and how to use the results along with other tests to make a speaker better. He also taught me LinearX, LEAP and AP. as well as application of DC-DC power supplies and A, B, AB, C and D class amplifiers...


Now that we know you understand what you are seeing.

Is the sub worth the *price he is asking?*


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

next thing you know superjay will be telling us he designed the original PPI Art Series art.. wait for it....


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> you two can't seem to come up with thoughts of your own...you're repeating something that peter euro shill keeps spouting. You completely ignored what the real issue is with that sub (read my posts...I've typed it here)
> 
> if you really think subs should run at 300 Hz we're done here. if you can't make a mid play down to 80Hz you need to leave this forum, the industry, and all your future audio work up to experienced professionals.


peter euro? what the hell are you smoking?

And ONCE AGAIN the same concept arises: "experienced professionals". Really???

Seriously dude, you _really_ have to start learning about science and unbiased tests. No joke, you really need to learn how this path to knowledge is fundamentally different than following "opinions of royalty". It's no wonder that you're completely lost in a technical thread ... no surprise that you can't understand the value of an unbiased technical test until the right "authority" blesses it for you. No wonder that, in your view, a Klippel test holds no more value than a random "opinion" on an anonymous message board.

*You're lost in a world of hearsay from kings & gurus, looking for the right authority to validate your belief system.*

By contrast : i don't know MiniVanMan from a sack of dirt. I've had zero contact with him outside this forum. Hell, from his posts lately, i don't even like him very much  If he's the "hero" you're referring to, it's EXACTLY the OPPOSITE. I value the DATA he took the time to collect (and i respect him for dong it). The data that NOW has been independently verified. And i'll defend his METHOD all day long. But i'll NEVER argue a point by saying "because minivan said so". He's not "royalty". NONE OF US ARE.

Do you really not get this distinction ... yet????


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

One things for damn certain !

Hansel and Gretel didn't use no Klippel to find their way home.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Now after having the Klippel serviced and carefully recalibrated in the fatherland, we would like to show you our findings on the *Ultra LV 10* >>




> DIYMA
> Administrator
> Upgrade Your Membership!
> 
> ...


*Ultrasubs, Lambros Vassiliou C.E.O., Ultratech Autotronic corp. *
*he builds the bestest in the U.S.A.*

*Vested interest*!!

*superjay* says these are the bestest

*PRO *says these are the bestest
*
Nav Tv* says these are the bestest

*handcrafted *says these are the bestest






superjay said:


> if the only issue with the Ultra is the price, fine, but a JL W6 is similar in price and performs similarly. The greatest thing about the USA is that you don't HAVE to buy it. you can NOT buy it because you think it's too expensive, but saying a product is crap because you think it's crap is just ignorant.


i think you have a very valid point here! But due to *"mysterious qualities of sound"* that have nothing to do with the *scientific theory* , it will not appear in this thread!

Just because said sub was destroyed by a gentleman with trophies awarded to him because of his expertise in making sound pressure level meters record large numbers, does not mean the said sub is crap.

T*he Klippel test proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that better can be had for one third the asking price of said sub!
*
Buy em all if it floats your boat ... my loss


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

cajunner said:


> is high inductance considered distortion?


No. Inductance itself will only roll-off the high end, exactly like a first-order low-pass filter.

Inductance modulation is, however, a nonlinear term that will cause distortion.


> is using a Faraday ring, or sleeving the gap considered a "fix" for high inductance?


YES. In simple terms, it turns the voicecoil into the primary of a trasnformer. By short-circuiting the secondary (aka copper shorting ring), you reduce the voicecoil's inductance.


> is high inductance a function of 'parts' or 'engineering'?


Engineering ... although it's a bit hard to separate.


> is the Ultra a sub that has been fully engineered, but uses cheaper iron, or mismatched iron to top plate geometry based on cost objectives?
> 
> can an Ultra sub be as clean as a first gen 10W6?
> 
> ...


don't know, don't know, don't know ...


> I believe Dan Wiggins was sharing details of XBL tech when his patent was still pending, is it something like that?


How flat is the BL curve? Note : XBL technology is not some "mysterious voodoo" that escapes the scrutiny of the Klippel. The presence and consequences of XBL technology are VERY visible in Klippel testing.


> can we assume that some parts are machined here in the US, and that makes the "hand-built" nature of the Ultra a reality?


don't know


> is it possible to have a distinctive design variable such as a flipped spider, not have any effect on the Klippel's data conclusions?


Sure. You can also paint the sub any color you want, and it won't show up in a Klippel test. And it won't impact the acoustic output either.


> is it possible to claim that there are audible differences that the Klippel cannot discern?


NO.

I've asked this question earlier (knowing full-well the answer), and the response was silence. So let's ask again : what exactly about "the sound" of a subwoofer is NOT identifiable in Klippel test results?


> is it necessary to continue to claim the Klippel cannot distinguish good from bad in subwoofer performance profiles?


People can claim all kinds of things ... doesn't make them true.


> this is where we need to clear the air, I'd think..


I'll say it again : there's NOTHING about "the sound" of a piston-range driver that escapes the scrutiny of a Klippel test. If you want to argue otherwise, you'd better be prepared to prove that there's something about "the sound" of a piston-range driver OUTSIDE & SEPARATE from : frequency response, transient response, harmonic distortion, intermod distortion and power handling. In short, you better be prepared to argue some "mysterious qualities of sound" beyond small signal & large signal analysis.

NOTE : The answers i've given are not "my opinions" ... _that_ distinction is also worth pursuing, if you've got more energy (and interest) than me.

see ... me did all that without "my hero" helping me


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I can sum up, in a single word, something the Klippel, or any other instrument, will NEVER be able to test...tonality

This is why a critical listening test MUST be a part of the battery of tests given to any loudspeaker. 



BoostedNihilist said:


> next thing you know superjay will be telling us he designed the original PPI Art Series art.. wait for it....


i did no such thing...those were out when i was getting my start in this industry...but I think you would all be very surprised to learn who had a hand in them


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## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

"Tonality" of a subwoofer, playing less than 2 of the bottom octaves with a 54db/octave slope. Honestly I'm not seeing that as a huge probability. It's just a subwoofer though, sub bass is the easiest section of the spectrum to reproduce properly. I'm sure it's a fine sub and would/does make many people happy. But at the end of the day it's still just a conventional subwoofer and its enclosure is going to be much more important than any "differences" this sub has with any of its directly competing products. 

And we're well aware of who had a hand (and who didn't) in the PPI Art graphics, no need to rehash that drama.


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

superjay said:


> i did no such thing...those were out when i was getting my start in this industry...but *I think you would all be very surprised to learn who had a hand in them*


No we wouldn't. We didn't all just fall off the turnip truck. It was Audio_Dave!


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

superjay said:


> I see...you're out of weapons...*your hero isn't here right now*, so all you can do is attack me personally.


Oh, this is just _so _sublime.










Just when I think there is not even entertainment value left in this logic-forsaken place, win erupts. Thank Yog-Sothoth that car audio, like a cat in springtime, regularly throws up new prophets of revealed truth to keep the objectivists in check. 



superjay said:


> if you really think subs should run at 300 Hz we're done here. if you can't make a mid play down to 80Hz you need to leave this forum, the industry, and all your future audio work up to experienced professionals


See, right there, that is just comic gold. 









Bludgeoning folks with 300 Hz, when the only one to mention it is yourself. Suggesting that lycan cannot get 80 hz out of mids with no proof of same, _or _knowledge of his particular tuning preferences or even, say, his history in the community is pretty darned funny. 

This thread may _yet _wind up worthy of posted on FailBlog.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> I can sum up, in a single word, something the Klippel, or any other instrument, will NEVER be able to test...tonality
> 
> This is why a critical listening test MUST be a part of the battery of tests given to any loudspeaker.


Well ... Hell .... now that you've spilled the beans , put me down for 2 

Even at $500.00 *a sub with tonality *would be worth it !! :laugh:


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Oliver said:


> Now that we know you understand what you are seeing.
> 
> Is the sub worth the *price he is asking?*


Superjay , when you have a moment ...

Would *YOU* personally buy this sub after seeing the Klippel results which you say you are very informed about :mean:


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I own an LV12SQ, and would happily buy another. The differences between this sub, and those in lower price ranges are noticeable. I don't want any part of my system to suffer, so I won't cut corners.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

I'd love to see how this $350 wonder woofer stacks up against a popular cheap sub, let's say a JBL GTO1014, or a Dayton HO...oh wait...


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

Differential equation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with Difference equation.


Visualization of heat transfer in a pump casing, by solving the heat equation. Heat is being generated internally in the casing and being cooled at the boundary, providing a steady state temperature distribution.
A differential equation is a mathematical equation for an unknown function of one or several variables that relates the values of the function itself and its derivatives of various orders. Differential equations play a prominent role in engineering, physics, economics, and other disciplines.
Differential equations arise in many areas of science and technology, specifically whenever a deterministic relation involving some continuously varying quantities (modeled by functions) and their rates of change in space and/or time (expressed as derivatives) is known or postulated. This is illustrated in classical mechanics, where the motion of a body is described by its position and velocity as the time varies. Newton's laws allow one to relate the position, velocity, acceleration and various forces acting on the body and state this relation as a differential equation for the unknown position of the body as a function of time. In some cases, this differential equation (called an equation of motion) may be solved explicitly.
An example of modelling a real world problem using differential equations is determination of the velocity of a ball falling through the air, considering only gravity and air resistance. The ball's acceleration towards the ground is the acceleration due to gravity minus the deceleration due to air resistance. Gravity is constant but air resistance may be modelled as proportional to the ball's velocity. This means the ball's acceleration, which is the derivative of its velocity, depends on the velocity. Finding the velocity as a function of time involves solving a differential equation.
Differential equations are mathematically studied from several different perspectives, mostly concerned with their solutions—the set of functions that satisfy the equation. Only the simplest differential equations admit solutions given by explicit formulas; however, some properties of solutions of a given differential equation may be determined without finding their exact form. If a self-contained formula for the solution is not available, the solution may be numerically approximated using computers. The theory of dynamical systems puts emphasis on qualitative analysis of systems described by differential equations, while many numerical methods have been developed to determine solutions with a given degree of accuracy.
Contents [hide]
1 Directions of study
2 Nomenclature
2.1 Examples
3 Related concepts
4 Connection to difference equations
5 Universality of mathematical description
6 Notable differential equations
6.1 Biology
6.2 Economics
7 See also
8 References
9 External links
[edit]Directions of study

The study of differential equations is a wide field in pure and applied mathematics, physics, meteorology, and engineering. All of these disciplines are concerned with the properties of differential equations of various types. Pure mathematics focuses on the existence and uniqueness of solutions, while applied mathematics emphasizes the rigorous justification of the methods for approximating solutions. Differential equations play an important role in modelling virtually every physical, technical, or biological process, from celestial motion, to bridge design, to interactions between neurons. Differential equations such as those used to solve real-life problems may not necessarily be directly solvable, i.e. do not have closed form solutions. Instead, solutions can be approximated using numerical methods.
Mathematicians also study weak solutions (relying on weak derivatives), which are types of solutions that do not have to be differentiable everywhere. This extension is often necessary for solutions to exist, and it also results in more physically reasonable properties of solutions, such as possible presence of shocks for equations of hyperbolic type.
The study of the stability of solutions of differential equations is known as stability theory.
[edit]Nomenclature

The theory of differential equations is quite developed and the methods used to study them vary significantly with the type of the equation.
An ordinary differential equation (ODE) is a differential equation in which the unknown function (also known as the dependent variable) is a function of a single independent variable. In the simplest form, the unknown function is a real or complex valued function, but more generally, it may be vector-valued or matrix-valued: this corresponds to considering a system of ordinary differential equations for a single function. Ordinary differential equations are further classified according to the order of the highest derivative of the dependent variable with respect to the independent variable appearing in the equation. The most important cases for applications are first-order and second-order differential equations. In the classical literature also distinction is made between differential equations explicitly solved with respect to the highest derivative and differential equations in an implicit form.
A partial differential equation (PDE) is a differential equation in which the unknown function is a function of multiple independent variables and the equation involves its partial derivatives. The order is defined similarly to the case of ordinary differential equations, but further classification into elliptic, hyperbolic, and parabolic equations, especially for second-order linear equations, is of utmost importance. Some partial differential equations do not fall into any of these categories over the whole domain of the independent variables and they are said to be of mixed type.
Both ordinary and partial differential equations are broadly classified as linear and nonlinear. A differential equation is linear if the unknown function and its derivatives appear to the power 1 (products are not allowed) and nonlinear otherwise. The characteristic property of linear equations is that their solutions form an affine subspace of an appropriate function space, which results in much more developed theory of linear differential equations. Homogeneous linear differential equations are a further subclass for which the space of solutions is a linear subspace i.e. the sum of any set of solutions or multiples of solutions is also a solution. The coefficients of the unknown function and its derivatives in a linear differential equation are allowed to be (known) functions of the independent variable or variables; if these coefficients are constants then one speaks of a constant coefficient linear differential equation.
There are very few methods of explicitly solving nonlinear differential equations; those that are known typically depend on the equation having particular symmetries. Nonlinear differential equations can exhibit very complicated behavior over extended time intervals, characteristic of chaos. Even the fundamental questions of existence, uniqueness, and extendability of solutions for nonlinear differential equations, and well-posedness of initial and boundary value problems for nonlinear PDEs are hard problems and their resolution in special cases is considered to be a significant advance in the mathematical theory (cf. Navier–Stokes existence and smoothness).
Linear differential equations frequently appear as approximations to nonlinear equations. These approximations are only valid under restricted conditions. For example, the harmonic oscillator equation is an approximation to the nonlinear pendulum equation that is valid for small amplitude oscillations (see below).
[edit]Examples
In the first group of examples, let u be an unknown function of x, and c and ω are known constants.
Inhomogeneous first-order linear constant coefficient ordinary differential equation:

Homogeneous second-order linear ordinary differential equation:

Homogeneous second-order linear constant coefficient ordinary differential equation describing the harmonic oscillator:

First-order nonlinear ordinary differential equation:

Second-order nonlinear ordinary differential equation describing the motion of a pendulum of length L:

In the next group of examples, the unknown function u depends on two variables x and t or x and y.
Homogeneous first-order linear partial differential equation:

Homogeneous second-order linear constant coefficient partial differential equation of elliptic type, the Laplace equation:

Third-order nonlinear partial differential equation, the Korteweg–de Vries equation:

[edit]Related concepts

A delay differential equation (DDE) is an equation for a function of a single variable, usually called time, in which the derivative of the function at a certain time is given in terms of the values of the function at earlier times.
A stochastic differential equation (SDE) is an equation in which the unknown quantity is a stochastic process and the equation involves some known stochastic processes, for example, the Wiener process in the case of diffusion equations.
A differential algebraic equation (DAE) is a differential equation comprising differential and algebraic terms, given in implicit form.
[edit]Connection to difference equations

See also: Time scale calculus
The theory of differential equations is closely related to the theory of difference equations, in which the coordinates assume only discrete values, and the relationship involves values of the unknown function or functions and values at nearby coordinates. Many methods to compute numerical solutions of differential equations or study the properties of differential equations involve approximation of the solution of a differential equation by the solution of a corresponding difference equation.
[edit]Universality of mathematical description

Many fundamental laws of physics and chemistry can be formulated as differential equations. In biology and economics differential equations are used to model the behavior of complex systems. The mathematical theory of differential equations first developed, together with the sciences, where the equations had originated and where the results found application. However, diverse problems, sometimes originating in quite distinct scientific fields, may give rise to identical differential equations. Whenever this happens, mathematical theory behind the equations can be viewed as a unifying principle behind diverse phenomena. As an example, consider propagation of light and sound in the atmosphere, and of waves on the surface of a pond. All of them may be described by the same second-order partial differential equation, the wave equation, which allows us to think of light and sound as forms of waves, much like familiar waves in the water. Conduction of heat, the theory of which was developed by Joseph Fourier, is governed by another second-order partial differential equation, the heat equation. It turned out that many diffusion processes, while seemingly different, are described by the same equation; Black-Scholes equation in finance is for instance, related to the heat equation.
[edit]Notable differential equations

Newton's Second Law in dynamics (mechanics)
Hamilton's equations in classical mechanics
Radioactive decay in nuclear physics
Newton's law of cooling in thermodynamics
The wave equation
Maxwell's equations in electromagnetism
The heat equation in thermodynamics
Laplace's equation, which defines harmonic functions
Poisson's equation
Einstein's field equation in general relativity
The Schrödinger equation in quantum mechanics
The geodesic equation
The Navier–Stokes equations in fluid dynamics
The Cauchy–Riemann equations in complex analysis
The Poisson–Boltzmann equation in molecular dynamics
The shallow water equations
Universal differential equation
The Lorenz equations whose solutions exhibit chaotic flow.
[edit]Biology
Verhulst equation – biological population growth
von Bertalanffy model – biological individual growth
Lotka–Volterra equations – biological population dynamics
Replicator dynamics – may be found in theoretical biology
[edit]Economics
The Black–Scholes PDE
Exogenous growth model
Malthusian growth model
The Vidale-Wolfe advertising model
[edit]See also

Wikibooks has a book on the topic of
Differential Equations
Complex differential equation
Exact differential equation
Integral equations
Linear differential equation
Picard–Lindelöf theorem on existence and uniqueness of solutions
[edit]References


This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations. Please improve this article by introducing more precise citations where appropriate. (August 2009)
D. Zwillinger, Handbook of Differential Equations (3rd edition), Academic Press, Boston, 1997.
A. D. Polyanin and V. F. Zaitsev, Handbook of Exact Solutions for Ordinary Differential Equations (2nd edition), Chapman & Hall/CRC Press, Boca Raton, 2003. ISBN 1-58488-297-2.
W. Johnson, A Treatise on Ordinary and Partial Differential Equations, John Wiley and Sons, 1913, in University of Michigan Historical Math Collection
E.L. Ince, Ordinary Differential Equations, Dover Publications, 1956
E.A. Coddington and N. Levinson, Theory of Ordinary Differential Equations, McGraw-Hill, 1955
P. Blanchard, R.L. Devaney, G.R. Hall, Differential Equations, Thompson, 2006
[edit]External links

Lectures on Differential Equations MIT Open CourseWare Video
Online Notes / Differential Equations Paul Dawkins, Lamar University
Differential Equations, S.O.S. Mathematics
Introduction to modeling via differential equations Introduction to modeling by means of differential equations, with critical remarks.
Differential Equation Solver Java applet tool used to solve differential equations.
Mathematical Assistant on Web Symbolic ODE tool, using Maxima
Exact Solutions of Ordinary Differential Equations
Collection of ODE and DAE models of physical systems MATLAB models
Notes on Diffy Qs: Differential Equations for Engineers An introductory textbook on differential equations by Jiri Lebl of UIUC


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay manifesto:
The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject.

To wit , this is to say that if I were to say something about which i were to say ... it would in fact encompass what i have shared with all thus acknowledging the rather egregious nature of said heretofore item that is currently being discussed until further reparations may make it so that the aforementioned to wits and other item has no longer been applied to the upside down spyder of which to wit you have not been mentioning until to wit the driver having been handmade in these united states of america , and so on ... and so on...

Blah blah... BLAH 

Sincerely SuperJay my offices are in another country.


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## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

^Jay's office is in the US. Sonda Audio is based in China.

You guys are running around in ****ing circles.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

My offices are in China and Hong Kong so I work from home...and yes they are


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> ah, wasn't sure what you were asking....a Dyno test will give you a lot of info about torque and acceleration, but doesn't tell you anything about the actual driving experience





superjay said:


> why? I've heard the Ultimate...there's nothing special about it. it sounds very good...very good, but i can get something much more efficient and laterally stable.





superjay said:


> actually, the only forum I've been banned from is Peter Euro's when I went there to fawk with him. I think my login was petereuroisadouche





superjay said:


> since no new technology is being introduced all the parts are GOING to be off the shelf. That's true of almost all subs. Since most every variation of material, compliance, size and shape is already out there having a part custom made would be unnecessarily expensive. The only parts that really need to be tooled now are baskets, backplates and diaphragms.
> 
> Aside from that, there has been no admission by the manufacturer that any parts are off the shelf. It has been purely speculative. That's the biggest problem here...speculation turned to fact in the minds of the people here. That's how conspiracy theories are made.


Circles you say :surprised:


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

Manifesto
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Manifesto (disambiguation).

The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Please improve this article and discuss the issue on the talk page.

This article needs additional citations for verification.
Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (December 2008)
A manifesto is a public declaration of principles and intentions, often political in nature. Manifestos relating to religious belief are generally referred to as a creed. Manifestos may also be life stance-related.
Contents [hide]
1 Etymology
2 Electoral manifestos
3 Notable manifestos
3.1 Political
3.2 Artistic
3.3 Technology
4 See also
5 External links
6 References
[edit]Etymology

Manifesto is derived from the Italian word manifesto, itself derived from the Latin manifestum, meaning clear or conspicuous. Its first recorded use in English is from 1620, in Nathaniel Bent's translation of Paolo Sarpi's History of the council of Trent: "To this citation he made answer by a Manifesto" (p 102). Similarly, "They were so farre surprized with his Manifesto, that they would never suffer it to be published" (p 103)[1]
[edit]Electoral manifestos

In some parliamentary democracies, political parties prepare electoral manifestos which set out both their strategic direction and outlines of prospective legislation should they win sufficient support in an election to serve in government. Legislative proposals which are featured in the manifesto of a party which has won an election are often regarded as having superior legitimacy to other measures which a governing party may introduce for consideration by the legislature. Although, in recent decades the status of electoral manifestos has diminished somewhat due to a significant tendency for winning parties to ignore, indefinitely delay, or even outright reject manifesto policies which were popular with the public upon taking office.
An alternative term, used especially in North America, is party platform.
[edit]Notable manifestos

[edit]Political
Examples of notable manifestos:
The Act of Abjuration (1581)
The United States Declaration of Independence (1776)
The Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen (1789) during the French Revolution
The Cartagena Manifesto (1812), by Simón Bolívar
The Tamworth Manifesto issued in 1834 by Sir Robert Peel
The Declaration of Sentiments (1848)
The Communist Manifesto (1848), by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels
The Anarchist Manifesto (1850), by Anselme Bellegarrigue.
The Humanist Manifesto I, II and III
The 1890 Manifesto dealing with plural marriage, issued by Wilford Woodruff as president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Second Manifesto dealing with plural marriage, issued by Joseph F. Smith as president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
The October Manifesto (1905) issued by Nicholas II, in an effort to cease the 1905 Russian Revolution
The Manifesto of the Sixteen (1916)
The Urmia Manifesto of the United Free Assyria, (1917) by Dr. Freydun Atturaya
The Liminar Manifesto in the Argentine University Revolution (1918)
The Amasya Circular (1919)
The Fascist manifesto (1919), by Fasci di Combattimento
The Manifesto of the Anti-Fascist Intellectuals (1925), by Benedetto Croce
Mein Kampf (My Struggle) (1925), by Adolf Hitler
The Cannibal Manifesto (1928), by Oswald de Andrade
I'll Take my Stand (1930), the manifesto of the Southern Agrarians
The Regina Manifesto (1933), by the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation
A Christian Manifesto (1934) by Edwin Lewis
The PKWN manifesto (1944), by Polish Committee of National Liberation
The Oxford Manifesto (1947) describing the basic principles of Liberal International
The Objectives Resolution of Pakistan (1949), by Liaquat Ali Khan
The Russell-Einstein Manifesto (1955), against nuclear weapons and war
The Southern Manifesto (1956), opposing the Supreme Court's decision in Brown v. Board of Education
Report on the Construction of Situations (1957), by Guy Debord
'The Capitalist Manifesto (1958), proposing the Democratization of Capital, including employee and citizen's ownership by Louis Kelso and Mortimer Adler (see Binary Economics')
The Manifesto of the 121 against the Algerian War
The Sharon Statement (1960), by M. Stanton Evans et al. (Young Americans for Freedom)
The Port Huron Statement (1962), by Tom Hayden et al.
The SCUM Manifesto (1968), by Valerie Solanas
For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto (1973), by Murray Rothbard
New Libertarian Manifesto (1980), by Samuel Edward Konkin III
A Christian Manifesto (1982), by Francis Schaeffer
Manifesto against conscription and the military system (1993) by Christian Bartolf (Gandhi Information Center)
The Contract with America (1994), by the Republican candidates for the House of Representatives
Industrial Society and Its Future a.k.a. The Unabomber's Manifesto (1995) by Unabomber, Theodore Kaczynski
The Hedonistic Imperative by David Pearce
The Libre Manifesto, by the Libre Society
Life on Earth (2002) by Luke Helder
The Free Culture Manifesto (2004), by FreeCulture.org
Manifesto on Freedom and Democracy for Vietnam (2006) by Bloc 8406
The Euston Manifesto (2006) by Euston Manifesto Group
The Revolution: A Manifesto (2008), by Ron Paul
A manifesto by Cho Seung-hui (2007)
A manifesto by Andrew Joseph Stack III, who flew his plane into an Austin, TX building housing an IRS field office (2010)
[edit]Artistic
The Futurist Manifesto (1909), by Filippo Tommaso Marinetti
The Art of Noises (1913), by Luigi Russolo
The Dada Manifesto (1918), by Tristan Tzara
The Surrealist Manifesto (1924), by André Breton
The Symbolist Manifesto (1886), by Jean Moreas
Cyberfeminist Manifesto (1991) by VNS Matrix
Dogma 95 (1995) by Lars von Trier, Thomas Vinterberg, Kristian Levring and Søren Kragh-Jacobsen
Manifesto of Transdisciplinarity (1996) by Basarab Nicolescu
100 Anti-Theses of Cyberfeminism (1997) by Old Boys' Network
Minnesota declaration: truth and fact in documentary cinema (1999), by Werner Herzog
First Things First 2000 manifesto: Ethics and social responsibility in graphic design (1999), by Kalle Lasn & Chris Dixon with Ken Garland. Edited by Rick Poynor
BLAST the Vorticist manifesto, by Wyndham Lewis
The Anti-News Manifesto (2005), by Scott Ryan
Manifesto of Amateurism (2006) by Anton Krueger [1]
The Remodernist Film Manifesto 2008 by Jesse Richards
[edit]Technology
A Cyborg Manifesto (1985), by Donna Haraway
The GNU Manifesto (1985), by Richard Stallman, an explanation and definition of the goals of the GNU Project
Industrial Society and Its Future, otherwise known as the Unabomber Manifesto (1995), By Ted Kaczynski
The Hacker's Manifesto (1986), by The Mentor aka Loyd Blankenship
Pluginmanifesto by Ana Kronschnabl, a Web film statement
Cyberfeminist Manifesto (1991) by VNS Matrix
The Debian Manifesto (1993), by Ian Murdock
The Third Manifesto (1995), by Christopher J. Date and Hugh Darwen, a proposal for relational database management system
100 Anti-Theses of Cyberfeminism (1997) by Old Boys' Network
The Cathedral and the Bazaar (1997), by Eric S. Raymond
The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999) by Rick Levine, Christopher Locke, Doc Searls and David Weinberger
The Hacktivismo Declaration (2001) by Oxblood Ruffin (Hacktivismo)
The Agile Manifesto (2001) by 17 software professionals
Monad Manifesto - The Origin of Windows Powershell (2002) by Jeffrey P. Snover
The Mozilla Manifesto (2007), by Mozilla community
You Are Not A Gadget: A Manifesto (2010), by Jaron Lanier
The Hardware Hacker Manifesto (2010), by Cody Brocious
[edit]See also

Art manifesto
Election promise
Government platform
Party line (politics)
Party platform
[edit]External links

Manifestos.net
An archive of Labour electoral manifestos from 1900-present
An archive of Conservative electoral manifestos from 1900-present
An archive of Liberal/SDP/Liberal Democrat electoral manifestos from 1900-present
2010 Conservative Manifesto
2010 Labour Manifesto
2010 Liberal Democrat Manifesto
[edit]References

^ Oxford English Dictionary
Categories: Political media | Election campaigning


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

Circle
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the shape and mathematical concept. For other uses, see Circle (disambiguation).


Circle illustration showing a radius, a diameter, the centre and the circumference


Tycho crater, one of many examples of circles that arise in nature. NASA photo
A circle is a simple shape of Euclidean geometry consisting of those points in a plane which are equidistant from a given point called the centre (or center; cf. American and British English spelling differences). The common distance of the points of a circle from its centre is called its radius.
Circles are simple closed curves which divide the plane into two regions, an interior and an exterior. In everyday use, the term "circle" may be used interchangeably to refer to either the boundary of the figure (also known as the perimeter) or to the whole figure including its interior. However, in strict technical usage, "circle" refers to the perimeter while the interior of the circle is called a disk. The circumference of a circle is the perimeter of the circle (especially when referring to its length).
A circle is a special ellipse in which the two foci are coincident. Circles are conic sections attained when a right circular cone is intersected with a plane perpendicular to the axis of the cone.
Contents [hide]
1 Further terminology
2 History
3 Analytic results
3.1 Length of circumference
3.2 Area enclosed
3.3 Equations
3.3.1 Cartesian coordinates
3.3.2 Polar coordinates
3.3.3 Complex plane
3.4 Tangent lines
4 Properties
4.1 Chord
4.2 Sagitta
4.3 Tangent
4.4 Theorems
4.5 Inscribed angles
5 Apollonius circle
5.1 Cross-ratios
5.2 Generalized circles
6 See also
7 Notes
8 References
9 External links

[edit]Further terminology



Chord, secant, tangent, and diameter.


Arc, sector, and segment
The diameter of a circle is the length of a line segment whose endpoints lie on the circle and which passes through the centre of the circle. This is the largest distance between any two points on the circle. The diameter of a circle is twice its radius.
As well as referring to lengths, the terms "radius" and "diameter" can also refer to actual line segments (respectively, a line segment from the centre of a circle to its perimeter, and a line segment between two points on the perimeter passing through the centre). In this sense, the midpoint of a diameter is the centre and so it is composed of two radii.
A chord of a circle is a line segment whose two endpoints lie on the circle. The diameter, passing through the circle's centre, is the longest chord in a circle. A tangent to a circle is a straight line that touches the circle at a single point. A secant is an extended chord: a straight line cutting the circle at two points.
An arc of a circle is any connected part of the circle's circumference. A sector is a region bounded by two radii and an arc lying between the radii, and a segment is a region bounded by a chord and an arc lying between the chord's endpoints.
[edit]History



The compass in this 13th century manuscript is a symbol of God's act of Creation. Notice also the circular shape of the halo
The circle has been known since before the beginning of recorded history. It is the basis for the wheel, which, with related inventions such as gears, makes much of modern civilization possible. In mathematics, the study of the circle has helped inspire the development of geometry and calculus.
Early science, particularly geometry and astrology and astronomy, was connected to the divine for most medieval scholars, and many believed that there was something intrinsically "divine" or "perfect" that could be found in circles.[citation needed]
Some highlights in the history of the circle are:
1700 BC – The Rhind papyrus gives a method to find the area of a circular field. The result corresponds to 256/81 (3.16049...) as an approximate value of π.[1]
300 BC – Book 3 of Euclid's Elements deals with the properties of circles.
1880 – Lindemann proves that π is transcendental, effectively settling the millennia-old problem of squaring the circle.[2]
[edit]Analytic results

[edit]Length of circumference
For more details on this topic, see Pi.
The ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter is π (pi), a constant that takes the same value (approximately 3.141592654) for all circles. Thus the length of the circumference (c) is related to the radius (r) by

or equivalently to the diameter (d) by

Using the circle constant τ = 2π one gets


[edit]Area enclosed


Area of the circle = π × area of the shaded square
Main article: Area of a disk
As proved by Archimedes the area of the area enclosed by a circle is
.
Equivalently, the area is π multiplied by the radius squared:

Using the circle constant τ = 2π one gets

Equivalently, denoting diameter by d,

that is, approximately 79% of the circumscribing square (whose side is of length d).
The circle is the plane curve enclosing the maximum area for a given arc length. This relates the circle to a problem in the calculus of variations, namely the isoperimetric inequality.
[edit]Equations
[edit]Cartesian coordinates


Circle of radius r = 1, centre (a, b) = (1.2, -0.5)
In an x-y Cartesian coordinate system, the circle with centre (a, b) and radius r is the set of all points (x, y) such that

This equation of the circle follows from the Pythagorean theorem applied to any point on the circle: as shown in the diagram to the right, the radius is the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle whose other sides are of length x − a and y − b. If the circle is centred at the origin (0, 0), then the equation simplifies to

The equation can be written in parametric form using the trigonometric functions sine and cosine as


where t is a parametric variable, interpreted geometrically as the angle that the ray from the origin to (x, y) makes with the x-axis. Alternatively, a rational parametrization of the circle is:


In homogeneous coordinates each conic section with equation of a circle is of the form

It can be proven that a conic section is a circle if and only if the point I(1: i: 0) and J(1: −i: 0) lie on the conic section. These points are called the circular points at infinity.
[edit]Polar coordinates
In polar coordinates the equation of a circle is:

where a is the radius of the circle, r0 is the distance from the origin to the centre of the circle, and φ is the anticlockwise angle from the positive x-axis to the line connecting the origin to the centre of the circle. For a circle centred at the origin, i.e. r0 = 0, this reduces to simply r = a. When r0 = a, or when the origin lies on the circle, the equation becomes
r = 2acos(θ − φ).
In the general case, the equation can be solved for r, giving
,
the solution with a minus sign in front of the square root giving the same curve.
[edit]Complex plane
In the complex plane, a circle with a centre at c and radius (r) has the equation . In parametric form this can be written z = reit + c.
The slightly generalised equation for real p, q and complex g is sometimes called a generalised circle. This becomes the above equation for a circle with , since . Not all generalised circles are actually circles: a generalised circle is either a (true) circle or a line.
[edit]Tangent lines
Main article: Tangent lines to circles
The tangent line through a point P on the circle is perpendicular to the diameter passing through P. If P = (x1, y1) and the circle has centre (a, b) and radius r, then the tangent line is perpendicular to the line from (a, b) to (x1, y1), so it has the form (x1−a)x+(y1−b)y = c. Evaluating at (x1, y1) determines the value of c and the result is that the equation of the tangent is
(x1 − a)x + (y1 − b)y = (x1 − a)x1 + (y1 − b)y1
or
(x1 − a)(x − a) + (y1 − b)(y − b) = r2.
If y1≠b then slope of this line is
.
This can also be found using implicit differentiation.
When the centre of the circle is at the origin then the equation of the tangent line becomes
x1x + y1y = r2,
and its slope is
.
[edit]Properties

The circle is the shape with the largest area for a given length of perimeter. (See Isoperimetric inequality.)
The circle is a highly symmetric shape: every line through the centre forms a line of reflection symmetry and it has rotational symmetry around the centre for every angle. Its symmetry group is the orthogonal group O(2,R). The group of rotations alone is the circle group T.
All circles are similar.
A circle's circumference and radius are proportional.
The area enclosed and the square of its radius are proportional.
The constants of proportionality are 2π and π, respectively.
The circle which is centred at the origin with radius 1 is called the unit circle.
Thought of as a great circle of the unit sphere, it becomes the Riemannian circle.
Through any three points, not all on the same line, there lies a unique circle. In Cartesian coordinates, it is possible to give explicit formulae for the coordinates of the centre of the circle and the radius in terms of the coordinates of the three given points. See circumcircle.
[edit]Chord
Chords are equidistant from the centre of a circle if and only if they are equal in length.
The perpendicular bisector of a chord passes through the centre of a circle; equivalent statements stemming from the uniqueness of the perpendicular bisector:
A perpendicular line from the centre of a circle bisects the chord.
The line segment (circular segment) through the centre bisecting a chord is perpendicular to the chord.
If a central angle and an inscribed angle of a circle are subtended by the same chord and on the same side of the chord, then the central angle is twice the inscribed angle.
If two angles are inscribed on the same chord and on the same side of the chord, then they are equal.
If two angles are inscribed on the same chord and on opposite sides of the chord, then they are supplemental.
For a cyclic quadrilateral, the exterior angle is equal to the interior opposite angle.
An inscribed angle subtended by a diameter is a right angle (see Thales' theorem).
The diameter is the longest chord of the circle.
[edit]Sagitta
The sagitta (also known as the versine) is a line segment drawn perpendicular to a chord, between the midpoint of that chord and the arc of the circle.
Given the length y of a chord, and the length x of the sagitta, the Pythagorean theorem can be used to calculate the radius of the unique circle which will fit around the two lines:

Another proof of this result which relies only on two chord properties given above is as follows. Given a chord of length y and with sagitta of length x, since the sagitta intersects the midpoint of the chord, we know it is part of a diameter of the circle. Since the diameter is twice the radius, the “missing” part of the diameter is (2r − x) in length. Using the fact that one part of one chord times the other part is equal to the same product taken along a chord intersecting the first chord, we find that (2r − x)x = (y/2)². Solving for r, we find the required result.
[edit]Tangent
The line drawn perpendicular to a radius through the end point of the radius is a tangent to the circle.
A line drawn perpendicular to a tangent through the point of contact with a circle passes through the centre of the circle.
Two tangents can always be drawn to a circle from any point outside the circle, and these tangents are equal in length.
[edit]Theorems


Secant-secant theorem
See also: Power of a point
The chord theorem states that if two chords, CD and EB, intersect at A, then CA×DA = EA×BA.
If a tangent from an external point D meets the circle at C and a secant from the external point D meets the circle at G and E respectively, then DC2 = DG×DE. (Tangent-secant theorem.)
If two secants, DG and DE, also cut the circle at H and F respectively, then DH×DG = DF×DE. (Corollary of the tangent-secant theorem.)
The angle between a tangent and chord is equal to one half the subtended angle on the opposite side of the chord (Tangent Chord Angle).
If the angle subtended by the chord at the centre is 90 degrees then l = √2 × r, where l is the length of the chord and r is the radius of the circle.
If two secants are inscribed in the circle as shown at right, then the measurement of angle A is equal to one half the difference of the measurements of the enclosed arcs (DE and BC). This is the secant-secant theorem.
[edit]Inscribed angles
See also: Inscribed angle theorem


Inscribed angle theorem
An inscribed angle (examples are the blue and green angles in the figure) is exactly half the corresponding central angle (red). Hence, all inscribed angles that subtend the same arc (pink) are equal. Angles inscribed on the arc (brown) are supplementary. In particular, every inscribed angle that subtends a diameter is a right angle (since the central angle is 180 degrees).

[edit]Apollonius circle



Apollonius' definition of a circle: d1/d2 constant
Apollonius of Perga showed that a circle may also be defined as the set of points in a plane having a constant ratio (other than 1) of distances to two fixed foci, A and B. (The set of points where the distances are equal is the perpendicular bisector of A and B, a line.) That circle is sometimes said to be drawn about two points[3].
The proof is as follows. A line segment PC bisects the interior angle APB, since the segments are similar:

Analogously, a line segment PD bisects the corresponding exterior angle. Since the interior and exterior angles sum to , the angle CPD is exactly , i.e., a right angle. The set of points P that form a right angle with a given line segment CD form a circle, of which CD is the diameter.
[edit]Cross-ratios
A closely related property of circles involves the geometry of the cross-ratio of points in the complex plane. If A, B, and C are as above, then the Apollonius circle for these three points is the collection of points P for which the absolute value of the cross-ratio is equal to one:

Stated another way, P is a point on the Apollonius circle if and only if the cross-ratio [A,B;C,P] is on the unit circle in the complex plane.
[edit]Generalized circles
See also: Generalized circle
If C is the midpoint of the segment AB, then the collection of points P satisfying the Apollonius condition
(1)
is not a circle, but rather a line.
Thus, if A, B, and C are given distinct points in the plane, then the locus of points P satisfying (1) is called a generalized circle. It may either be a true circle or a line. In this sense a line is a generalized circle of infinite radius.
[edit]See also

List of circle topics
Cycle (disambiguation)
Loop
Hoop
Ring
Squircle
[edit]Notes

^ Chronology for 30000 BC to 500 BC
^ Squaring the circle
^ Harkness, James (1898). Introduction to the theory of analytic functions. London, New York: Macmillan and Co.. pp. 30.
[edit]References

Pedoe, Dan (1988). Geometry: a comprehensive course. Dover.
"Circle" in The MacTutor History of Mathematics archive
[edit]External links

Wikimedia Commons has media related to: Circle geometry
Wikiquote has a collection of quotations related to: Circles
Circle (PlanetMath.org website)
Interactive Java applets for the properties of and elementary constructions involving circles.
Interactive Standard Form Equation of Circle Click and drag points to see standard form equation in action
Munching on Circles at cut-the-knot
Ron Blond homepage - interactive applets
calculate circumference and area with your own values
MathAce's Circle article - has a good in-depth explanation of unit circles and transforming circular equations.
Google Maps Circle Overlay Lets you add a circle to Google Maps
Categories: Circles | Geometric shapes | Curves | Conic sections | Pi


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

basher8621 said:


> ^Jay's office is in the US. Sonda Audio is based in China.
> 
> You guys are running around in ****ing circles.


Ok then, I'll take 4 of them :laugh:


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Here's the bottom line.

We don't want no overpriced subwoofers ... *period !*

*KEEP EM !*

any more questions?


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

then don't buy it, but the price doesn't make the woofer crap...THAT is my point


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## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

Other than a bad kipple what makes you say it is over priced? Have you ever listened to the sub to say it sounds bad?


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

you ultra fanboys are the ones running around in circles. You have yet to bring one iota of fact/logic/anything to discount the scientific data we have here other than 'it sounds good' 

We're being brimered here boys.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

> why? I've heard the LV 10...there's nothing special about it. it sounds very good...very good, but i can get something much more efficient and laterally stable.


above post modified for clarity.

For ex:
Dayton RSS265HF-4 10" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm price $126.70


> * Extensively vented motor eliminates compression and allows quiet excursion
> * Lightweight black anodized aluminum cone for rigidity and lower moving mass
> * Suitable for sealed or vented enclosures
> * Triple shorting ring motor for ultra-low distortion
> ...


----------



## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

Im not a fan bouy by any means. I bought some stuff that I really like. I listen and buy what sounds best and don't really care what the price is. If I like it I buy it.


Here is a question I want EVERYONE who is talking trash on Ultra to answer. Have you EVER heard the sub in person?


You people sure have a lot to say about a sub you have never heard.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

hey superjay. do you have a single thought that cannot be copied and pasted from wikipedia? 

here are the cliff notes:

the science says that this is true

yeah so, the science is wrong

but the science is the science

science is wrong

no it isn't

yes it is, the world is still flat and the sun revolves around the earth, and heavy objects fall faster than light objects because it's obvious to anybody who has looked.

facepalm. ****ing gigantic facepalm.

You ultra fanboys should go circlejerk each other some place else and leave the science to the big boys.



> then don't buy it, but the price doesn't make the woofer crap...THAT is my point


hmm, this statement implies that the sub is an expensive piece of crap.. and you are right, the crappy sub makes the sub crappy and the fact that it is expensive is just well, crappy.

yes i've heard the sub. i've heard many subs, including many utras. Ive heard 50 dollar subs that sound better than the ultra.

and yes, you are a fanboy.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I'll never use Dayton speakers in anything...I have pride and good ears.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

and all you dayton fanboys should open your minds and realize that:

I have this subwoofer here. How does it peform.

It does X, Y, and Z really well

It does A, B, and C ok

It does D, E, and F like ass

That is the performance of the sub.

/end of discussion.


Second discussion:

How much does it cost?


It Cost: W


Third Discussion:

Is paying W to get X, Y, and Z while putting up with D, E and F worth it to ME. 





But combining the first discussion with the 2nd and 3rd does not make sense.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

basher8621,

can i interest you in some lakefront property in the Sahara Desert ?

If you price that sub according to its value, I'll buy one

*seriously*


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

yeah, you certainlly seem to be full of pride.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

Im not a dayton fanboy, ive used them in customers vehicles, done a few things here and there with them.. they do sound better than the ultras I have used, and as a bonus they are cheaper. Mind you, Ive heard sony xplod woofers sound as good as the ultra so ultra makes a pretty ****ty benchmark I'd say.

you shouldnt be talking about a woofer youve never heard.


----------



## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

Oliver said:


> basher8621,
> 
> can i interest you in some lakefront property in the Sahara Desert ?
> 
> ...


You are seriously a ****ing moron. The sub is priced according to value. Without seeing anything but the kippel results or EVEN HEARING the damn thing how can you say it doesn't deserve it price point?

Again, other than the kippel results what proof do you have it is NOT priced right.


----------



## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

BoostedNihilist said:


> you shouldnt be talking about a woofer youve never heard.


Thank you for agreeing with me. EVERY person that is talking negatively about Ultra has not heard it before.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

value... lol

I have some sq rocks I dug out of my garden, they make your system sound rad.. theyre yours for 10000 dollars I guarantee once you hear these things you'll see the value in them

Im talking bad about the ultra.. I think it sucks, because ive heard it. I was referring to superjay talking bad about the dayton. Clearly, he has never listened to it or he would think it is awesome same goes for you


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> yeah, you certainlly seem to be full of pride.


I'm not sure it's pride that he is full of


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

The Klippel can't test "tonality" ???????

You've GOT to be kidding me, right?

Tonality is NOTHING BUT the frequency response, combined with large-signal harmonic distortion. There's no "mystery quality" to _tonality_ that is not captured in these measurements.

UNREAL.

dude, please stay far away from science ... you don't understand a bit of it.

And super-long wiki quotes (that you don't understand either) are NOT helping your cause ...


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

basher8621 said:


> You are seriously a ****ing moron. The sub is priced according to value. Without seeing anything but the kippel results or EVEN HEARING the damn thing how can you say it doesn't deserve it price point?
> 
> Again, other than the kippel results what proof do you have it is NOT priced right.


Rock on in the winners circle of Delusion :rockon:


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

BoostedNihilist said:


> Im not a dayton fanboy, ive used them in customers vehicles, done a few things here and there with them.. they do sound better than the ultras I have used, and as a bonus they are cheaper. Mind you, Ive heard sony xplod woofers sound as good as the ultra so ultra makes a pretty ****ty benchmark I'd say.
> 
> you shouldnt be talking about a woofer youve never heard.


when and where did you hear an Ultra?


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

Oliver said:


> I'm not sure it's pride that he is full of


well, I assumed since hes so fond of huggin nuts pride would be the logical extension.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

lycan said:


> The Klippel can't test "tonality" ???????
> 
> You've GOT to be kidding me, right?
> 
> ...


fallacy by red herring...


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

basher8621 said:


> Thank you for agreeing with me. EVERY person that is talking negatively about Ultra has not heard it before.


The Klippel has heard it. It's ears are better than yours. This is NOT a debate about "whose ears" heard what.

There's NOTHING about the "mystery sound" of a piston-range driver that's NOT captured in : frequency response, transient response, harmonic distortion, intermod distortion, etc.

These quantities ARE the sound of a piston-range air pump.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

superjay said:


> when and where did you hear an Ultra?


umm.... a while ago in a ****ing car..


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

you've never heard Ultra and you want to compare it to sub par subwoofers. fallacy by misinfomation


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> fallacy by red herring...


prove it wrong.

What EXACTLY about the sound of a piston-range driver is NOT to be found in :

frequency-domain response
time-domain transient response
harmonic distortion
intermod distortion

Please be specific, and avoid audio-phile jargon, ummmkay ????


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

What do you 2 use for a base to blend your nose with the rest of your face?


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

moron...posting wiki articles is a fallacy by red herring. learn logic games.


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> moron...posting wiki articles is a fallacy by red herring. learn logic games.


you REALLY have absolutely nothing useful to add to this discussion, do you?

You're in over your head ... WAY over your head.

Better go find some "royalty" to rescue you :laugh:


----------



## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

BoostedNihilist said:


> You ultra fanboys should go circlejerk each other some place else .


They do, it's called Sound Domain.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

superjay said:


> you've never heard Ultra and you want to compare it to sub par subwoofers. fallacy by misinfomation


I've never heard Ultra.. that's rich. Youve never heard a single subwoofer in your life so what makes you qualified to speak on the topic here?

They sound the same as cheap sony subwoofers.. why, because hey are the same thing just priced at a higher point to infer quality. You say they awesome, I say they are average at best. Perhaps you should bring something other than your anecdotal evidence to support your position... When you do that I'll scan the invoices and post them, they will tell you exactly when and where Ive heard the ultra subs... and if you're really nice Ill post the pictures of the builds


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

superjay said:


> I think I said sub frequencies should never be above 80Hz...in which case the LV10 would still be fantastic. If you're going to run your subs into the 200 and 300Hz ranges you need to seriously reevaluate your system, and knowledge of audio. Even Home audio subs don't usually run above 110hz.


On what planet? It's common for long throw woofers in home audio to extend to hundreds of Hertz. I don't know where you got this idea. IIRC, even the PL sub channel specs at 150Hz. If you think things are different in the car, then let me just point out that the primary difference between the car and the home tends to reside at much lower frequencies than that.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with running subs at high frequencies, provided that the speaker is actually capable of extending high enough without distorting.


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> I'll never use Dayton speakers in anything...I have pride and good ears.


That's almost signature-worthy 

Brand names (and name-dropping of industry professionals) are all that matters to this dude.

And consequently he doesn't even realize how "lost at sea" he is, in a technical thread 

At first it was funny ... now it's just plain sad.

i'm out.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

ok, I've never heard a single subwoofer ever. I've never even heard music.


----------



## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Sorry sthuperjay, you've been trumped here, and continue to make yourself (and Ultra by association) look like jackasses. Go home.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

clearly

look, if you haven't figured it out yet I'll make it really clear for you

This place has a history of having people just like you come in and spout the same nonsense. 

Here, that just doesn't fly. You can call us names and infer that we don't know **** abotu **** but the diyma world is going to continue to rotate as if your insignificant presence was never a reality. The people who habitate here are not going to give in to your train of thought no matter how many names you drop or how much you say you know. If that makes us uneducated or unqualifiied in your mind we pretty much don't care. We know what is what and you telling us we don't isn't going to make a difference. Perhaps that works on your sound domain monkeys, but we aren't monkeys and we do things differently around here. We don't follow the establishment and aren't going to jump off a bridge simply because you and your friends think it's cool.

The fact that you don't see or understand this shows how poorly you fit in here. Perhaps do us, and yourself a favour and go back to where you belong.. with the kiddies in the kiddy pool because what you are doing here is the internet forum literal translation of pissing into the wind...

wiki it yourself.. 

you really should have packed your **** and left after that whole which wire is positive debacle where you proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that for an educated guy you don't know **** about ****. The fact people listen to you is scary in and of itself, but I am thankful that you took the time to out yourself as a complete knucklehead... we shouldn't even be entertaining you with dialogue.. where is our sense of propriety?


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

lycan said:


> And super-long wiki quotes (that you don't understand either) are NOT helping your cause ...


This would be true if the "cause" was furthering understanding. If the cause is to obliterate this thread and make it unreadable to anyone looking for information ...


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

keep buying your nameless crap online. keep bringing the industry down. keep thinking you know **** from **** about how anything in this industry works. stay in your little bubble, and away from the tools.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

superjay said:


> keep buying your nameless crap online. keep bringing the industry down. keep thinking you know **** from **** about how anything in this industry works. stay in your little bubble, and away from the tools.


if you and your circle jerk participants leave we will be substancially further ahead in our quest to be separated from the tools.


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

BoostedNihilist said:


> if you and your circle jerk participants leave we will be substancially further ahead in our quest to be separated from the tools.


But they are trying to pull us into the present!!
Sorry for the crappy quote format, I had to copy from a PDF as I do not have a SoundDomain membership.



> *SQLAltima*
> (Team SoundDomain)
> 2010-10-01 06:00:46
> *Re: Good Lord*
> ...


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

yeah, where is sound domains klippel database? lol

hey, can you link that thread mang? the soundomain site is a clusterfuck, and I dont want to give them more clicks than they are worthy of


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

GlassBeadBreather said:


> You act about 1/3 of your age, old man. You are a ****ing embarrassment to engineers.


how old do you think i am?


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

For SuperJoke:


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

I'll take what is four plus 10 for 1000 alex


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

superjay said:


> keep buying your nameless crap online. keep bringing the industry down. keep thinking you know **** from **** about how anything in this industry works. stay in your little bubble, and away from the tools.


You are something else. Everyone on here would be willing to buy the Ultra sub at the price it is, if it actually tested well. It didn't, and you or Ultra cannot give a solid reason why! Go home or get Ultra to drop the price to what it is really worth and we will stop bashing!

Minivanman and Lycan (among others) are correct!


----------



## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

BoostedNihilist said:


> yeah, where is sound domains klippel database? lol
> 
> hey, can you link that thread mang? the soundomain site is a clusterfuck, and I dont want to give them more clicks than they are worthy of


Try this:

http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1847959&page=0&fpart=1


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## Jesus Christ (Aug 3, 2010)

ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. 








Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense! 

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major audio company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

does superjay know you took your hands off his nuts to type that.. or did you do it with your nose?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

awesome. forum wars.




How about we get back tot he topic at hand. So far we have 1 page of data/science and about 7 pages of ********.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

yeah right, any time science is brought to the fore the huggers come out and tell us what's what. 

Mods should clean this thread up.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

ahhh, hell, since everyone else has stabbed this thread to death (Patrick Bateman reference), I might as well have some fun, too...



































I think I like this one more, though...


----------



## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

cajunner said:


> and to go a step further, the real reason the Klippel was snatched up by Image Dynamics, is that they have a vested interest in keeping Image products from being tested by impartial testing personnel.
> 
> Image Dynamics started long ago, and has been able to propagate the mystique by providing a solid product that works, but their start, their brainstorm was the waveguide. They have no truly ground-breaking science in their woofer designs, and just used what was a gradual shift to go bigger and bigger in the parts, after companies like JL made the investment in tooling to produce better woofers, but make no mistake, Image Dynamics is selling product that has no intrinsic proprietary design, or none that can't be found in woofers selling for half the price.
> 
> ...


Excellent post!


----------



## DUATH (May 8, 2005)

Hmm, looks like a conventional overhung motor topology with some suspension asymmetry... and relatively limited 'linear' xmax and 'FR' for a woofer in this price range... next.


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

BoostedNihilist I call BS. Ultra isn't some large mass production company. Everything is made in small batches. When I say small I mean 10 to 100 woofers at a time. The fact that you claimed to hear them in a car means nothing to me. What car? What speakers? What amplifiers?

Ultra has three lines of woofers. A series is a marine grade woofer. It's the entry level series.

















The LV series is the audiophile line. Ultra woofers were designed for music, not SPL burps.

















The CLV series are the Monsters. Higher power handling, larger voice coil.
















This is the 18. There were less than 20 made. The price is very high because of the limited run.

Start your own company making woofers here in the US. Then talk to me about product cost and retail pricing. Also don't forget profit margins and how you keep food on your kids tables.

Sony has no products that you can compare to the LV10. None, zip, zero. Even the A10 is superior to anything Sony has in the Marine line.

I said it before and I'll say it again. If you would like to hear the LV10 in person, I live in Dallas. There will be two on display at USACi world finials in November. You can also hear four Monster12s there as well.

No one said Ultra reinvented the wheel. If your happy with your current subwoofer good for you. Enjoy your system, get off the computer and enjoy life. The suns out and it's a beautiful day. Take a walk and stop hating on everything.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

so you're telling me you know where every ultra subwoofer has gone, who owns it, what vehicle it is in.. *I* call ********. 

what does the type of speakers these things pair with even have anything to with the debate at hand. I have heard these things and they sound like cheap subwoofers. Your opinion on this matter carries exactly as much weight as mine until you come with some scientific/evidence of any type, as of yet you have not.. 

People bring obscure **** to me all the time, and yes, ultra fits into that obscure **** category.. it is obscure and it is ****. I really dont give a flying **** if you believe what I have to say. My experience and my ears tell me that ultra is nothing special therefore it is true. simple as that.

You know so much about where the ultra subs have gone you tell me where I have heard them. I offered to put up the installation invoices and pictures of the build should you meet a certain burden, which as of yet you have not.. so either put up or shut the **** up...

btw im not hating on everything, just overpriced run of the mill **** that is overpriced and therefore of very little value.


----------



## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

I never said I know where every Ultrasub is. I do however doubt your professional opinion. These woofers are not Chinese mass produced products. Anyone that has held one can tell you that.

So what you are telling me is a Corvette is the same as a Chevette because they are both made by Chevy? 

Your claim is unfounded in my opinion. Would you know the difference between and Ultra Linear, SVS Ultra and a Ultrasub woofer?

Run of the mill?
You just compared this Sony woofer that is mostly plastic casing to an LV10?
















That is all magnet with a rubber gasket around it. No plastic and no BS like on a sony.

www.Sounddomain.com/forum


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

what difference does the material/construction make.. Im just talking about how they sound...


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

Those two woofers don't sound anything alike unless the installer was a hack.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

it's about as possible as the claim that the ultra is as good as the pricetag says it is.

my penis is WAAAY bigger than yours.

ultra fanhugger v.s. unbiased source.. 

all you nuthugging fanboys operate the same  you bring 'i say so' to the party but can't back it up when 'someone says something else'

your say, and my say, are worth about as much as anybody pays to read this.. which last time I checked is pretty close to nothing.


----------



## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

Here is my Ultra 18 sitting next to a LV10.

Here is a writeup that Lambros made for some of the dealers. This was before the A series was started.

_Hello, I will talk a little about our products and what they do, feel free to post any questions or concerns.

Ultra products were conceived from the distinct needs of today's specialist mobile retailers.
I will start with the Subwoofers, because that is what put "us" on the Map.
We offer two lines of Subwoofers, first I will tell you a little about the Ultra 10 and Ultra 12.

These woofers both share some key features such as un-pressed composite cone, this cone was used because you CAN'T use a Poly cone with an Aluminum voice coil. A collar or spacer could be used but all that does is increase mass which in turn hurts sensitivity and makes you need a bigger enclosure which is not really helpful in today's small box applications. Our cones are light and rigid.
Also a very important point is that our woofers produce very little secondary harmonics, just pure clean and precise bass.

The aluminum Voice coil former is used because Kapton, which works extremely well in smaller drivers does not lend itself to the extremes that Subwoofers are applied to. If a Kapton former is not allowed to cool down before the system is shut off, it could cool in less than a optimal state. This means when you go to play the Sub the next day you have a blown driver because the Kapton warped.
This is common knowledge to me, I experienced this problem over 13 years ago when I was working on a "famous" flat piston Sub that used Kapton voice coil former along with Ferro cooling. It did not work out, novel idea though.

We also use top quality Rubber surrounds because they stand up much better to the ravages of time and temperature fluctuations.

Our Baskets are cast Aluminum, this allows for less "twist" when installing and also allows us to utilize much tighter tolerances in the design of our Subwoofers. the Basket is just the "wrapper", many companies use similar or even the same baskets but it is whats inside that counts. A fancy basket does not affect performance in any way. Somebody could "wow" at the look of a particular product but it is the end result in sound that makes or breaks the reputation of a product.

Our Woofers offer no BUMP at a particular frequency, companies do this to give their speaker a distinct sound but the RIGHT way to do it is to design a speaker that the enclosure will dictate response.
This is very important so you could better serve customers by giving them exactly what they want. Also is that bumps are usually accompanied by impedance dips or spikes that could even damage/destroy an amplifier.

Simply put:
Use the woofers in a small sealed box and you will get tight, ultra quick response that I could say with confidence no woofer on the market could match.
Put them in a larger sealed or ported enclosure and you will get the same speed and accuracy with tremendous low frequency output.
Our woofers could and have worked extremely well in designs down to .4 of a cubic foot and properly loaded would impress you.
In 1.5 ported tuned to 34hz to 39hz is down right dangerous._


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

BoostedNihilist said:


> it's about as possible as the claim that the ultra is as good as the pricetag says it is.
> 
> my penis is WAAAY bigger than yours.
> 
> ...


It's interesting to me that your tactic here evoked the biggest response by the Ultra employee. I think you found the common vernacular.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

well markz beat me to the punch the rolleyes was for fanmaster salesman up there..


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> It's interesting to me that your tactic here evoked the biggest response by the Ultra employee. I think you found the common vernacular


when you see a monkey you feed him a banana


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

IamMurph said:


> Here is my Ultra 18 sitting next to a LV10.
> 
> Here is a writeup that Lambros made for some of the dealers. This was before the A series was started.
> 
> ...


Murph, thanks for posting this. It sounds like a pretty robust woofer. I think this sort of explanation is EXACTLY what the members here have been asking for, for the last 10 pages!

But I have a question regarding the bolded portions above.

1) Didn't the Klippel demonstrate that the harmonic distortion performance was nothing special? This is at odds with what the author of this description said.

2) Didn't the Klippel demonstrate that the transient performance was nothing special? This is also at odds with what the author wrote.

How do you reconcile the independent measurements with the author's claims?


----------



## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

BoostedNihilist said:


> it's about as possible as the claim that the ultra is as good as the pricetag says it is.
> 
> my penis is WAAAY bigger than yours.
> 
> ...


True my 15 years installing and being nominated as one of the top ten installers in the US for 2009 means nothing. This is the internet and everyone is an expert. I have ran many products over the years. The last system I bought before Ultra was all Infinity Kappa. I was deeply disappointed. I tried this equipment with a money back guarantee and I have never looked back. A three year warranty on product that I beat on daily. Never have I said it was the best thing since sliced bread. I leave that up to the CDT, Adire and RE fan boys. I have yet to hear anyone who has bought Ultra gear say it wasn't worth the price. Also lets talk about price. Who here pays MSRP for anything? Just because the list price is $350 does that mean you have to pay list price? I understand the I can get it cheaper online mentality. I prefer knowing my dealer by name and getting a product that the company will stand behind for three years. maybe I am old school but I like support American business and American jobs.


----------



## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> It's interesting to me that your tactic here evoked the biggest response by the Ultra employee. I think you found the common vernacular.


Third time, I don't work for Ultra. I though you guys could read?


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

IamMurph said:


> Third time, I don't work for Ultra. I though you guys could read?


I saw where you had said that. But your last several posts came across to me as if you were affiliated with them somehow. For example, when you wrote:

"Start your own company making woofers here in the US. Then talk to me about product cost and retail pricing."

This implied that you started (or were part of) a company that makes woofers in the US, and this is how you were aware of certain things that Boosted was not.

Anyway, your posts don't come off as being very objective. So I made an assumption. I'm sorry if it was the wrong one.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> True my 15 years installing and being nominated as one of the top ten installers in the US for 2009 means nothing. This is the internet and everyone is an expert. I have ran many products over the years. The last system I bought before Ultra was all Infinity Kappa. I was deeply disappointed. I tried this equipment with a money back guarantee and I have never looked back. A three year warranty on product that I beat on daily. Never have I said it was the best thing since sliced bread. I leave that up to the CDT, Adire and RE fan boys. I have yet to hear anyone who has bought Ultra gear say it wasn't worth the price. Also lets talk about price. Who here pays MSRP for anything? Just because the list price is $350 does that mean you have to pay list price? I understand the I can get it cheaper online mentality. I prefer knowing my dealer by name and getting a product that the company will stand behind for three years. maybe I am old school but I like support American business and American jobs.


Good for you, want a trophy.. don't answer that lol.

To be honest, I get excellent prices by knowing people personally. I have never bought a single product through an unauthroized source, or sold one in over a decade in the industry. 

I don't care about where a woofer is built. I care about its value, which is to me, is its performance to price ratio. I have no problem whatsoever paying top dollar for top performance, ultra is not it. 

The my penis is bigger than yours comment was completely tongue in cheek. It worked out nicely because you walked into the ashole... I didn't even have to kick you into it...

I might not have been voted one of the top ten installers, but that really doesn't mean much to me.. it only means something to the my penis is bigger than yours is crowd. That crowd seems to pervade mobile audio like aids pervades africa which is why I left car audio for a REAL profession. 

what the criteria, process or even validity of that nomination are/is... who knows, it's probably just another industry circle jerk where you all get together and make some soggy bread.. never was much into that kind of fraternal mentality.. 

what my decade + of experience in this industry has taught me is that pretty much everything car audio related is competely full of ****, and you are just one more example of what I have come to know as true.

So, contine helping jack off his horse and I hope you can hold out longer than the dude on your right because even though I think you're kinda deserving I still wouldn't want you to be the one to eat the wet bread.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

IamMurph said:


> Third time, I don't work for Ultra. I though you guys could read?


you're an approved vendor here, what exactly is it that you sell?


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

I try to look at both sides of the conversation. Hand made woofers cost more to produce then mass produced Japanese woofers. That is a statement of fact. That is part of the cost difference between an Ultra woofer and a Image Dynamics woofer.

To answer the above two questions. I am no expert on production. I don't fully understand the data being presented. These woofers are designed to be in a small sealed enclosure. They work well in a small ported enclosure as well.

Testing the woofer in an infinite baffle application doesn't make sense to me. I see getting base line measurements but unless you have the woofer in the appropriate enclosure then aren't the results skewed? That's like doing a motor dyno without wheels and tires.

So what the Klippel test showed was average performance outside of an enclosure.

I have a lot of passion for car audio. It was my profession for many years. Lambros is a friend of mine. He is also a Greek New Yorker with a lot of passion for his baby. If you know any New Yorkers then you know they can be a big pain in the ass. He isn't giving a lot of time or energy into this fight because he knows the quality of his product and how many satisfied customers are using his equipment. Is it for everyone, no.

No magic, no flash, no overpriced hoopla. Just a well made American product. If you have time take a listen. If you don't care, stop posting.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

IamMurph said:


> True my 15 years installing and being nominated as one of the top ten installers in the US for 2009 means nothing.


Agreed! It mean NOTHING when talking about how a speaker measured. Or is there some special knowledge your experience gives you that allows you to take advantage of the high distortion of this woofer, especially one at this price point?


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

I thought I read somewhere that the components are made in china and final machined in america.. that doesn't exactly mean, made in america.. it means assembled in america no?


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

BoostedNihilist said:


> you're an approved vendor here, what exactly is it that you sell?


Please go back and read my previous posts.

I have requested that Ant fix my status.


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## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

If someone wanted to send me four LV-12s I'd be happy to give them a full "listening" evaluation against what I'm currently running (four Sundown SA-12s). The Sundowns retail at $249 each and the Ultras are $399.99, but the power handling is similar and most of the other specs aren't too far off from each other.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

meh, I have better things to do than figure out your life story. I only took an interest in you when you called me out.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

IamMurph said:


> I try to look at both sides of the conversation. Hand made woofers cost more to produce then mass produced Japanese woofers. That is a statement of fact. That is part of the cost difference between an Ultra woofer and a Image Dynamics woofer.


Which is why I often find myself buying mass-produced items. They tend to be considerably less expensive, I agree.



> To answer the above two questions. I am no expert on production. I don't fully understand the data being presented. These woofers are designed to be in a small sealed enclosure. They work well in a small ported enclosure as well.
> 
> Testing the woofer in an infinite baffle application doesn't make sense to me. I see getting base line measurements but unless you have the woofer in the appropriate enclosure then aren't the results skewed? That's like doing a motor dyno without wheels and tires.
> 
> ...


If I'm not mistaken, the test was performed free air, which allows anybody to incorporate the measured parameters into a number of different modeling programs to predict how they'll behave in a particular enclosure. Is there reason to believe that there's some sort of nonlinearity present that wouldn't allow us to extrapolate exactly how they'd perform in a small sealed box?

BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, I haven't paid close attention to the outcome of the test, and I'm not in the market for a new subwoofer so I haven't even considered buying one of these. I'm much more interested in the general idea that some people seem to have that we can't predict performance from measured parameters. That's a really weird stance to take, especially since the guy you quoted (Lambros? Is this the owner?) relied on two of these descriptors (harmonic distortion and transient response) to convey information about the sound quality of the speaker.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I'm going to poll together what the 3 sources are claiming in order to review the usefulness of information from:
1. The manufacturer
2. Scientific approach
3. Superjay and the mob 

1. Manufacturer
*gives some parameters on the website that are incomplete for scientific approach (no LE spec)
*xmax at 13mm
*makes claim that maximum power is 1000w
*works well in .5 ft3 sealed
*sounds goooood

2. Scientific approach
*We start out with Ant offering a $20,000 machine to check the accuracy of manuf. parameters and complete the information when the manuf. does not give us enough information
*Matt @ ID and MiniVanMan provide more machinery/software, time, free labor and their experience in administering the tests
*Combined with some free software and minimal skills we can draw our own conclusions about what this sub can do:
*we have a full spec sheet so we can get the following:
*xmax figure is 8mm:
82% of rest BL: 12.5*.82 = 10.25 (corresponds to -12.5mm to 15mm)
75% of rest CMS: .3846*.75=.2885(corresponds to -8 mm to 16mm)
Note: inductance distortion is not even accounted for so this is an UPPER BOUND on xmax
*sealed box for a .7 Q is .81 ft3
*Le is a high 2.8mh and varies a lot with xmax
*Say we want to know actual power needed to reach xmax at 20hz:








As little as 85w can push the sub to a threshold of 10% distortion at 20hz (in an .707 Q box)
*how does output look like with 85w:








This is fun right? In my car I have about 92db of noise on the freeway and no cabin gain (convertible). Roadnoise is *twice* as loud as this sub trying to reproduce 20hz at 10% distortion. Notice how soon the frequency response rolls off up top as a sign of high inductance. It doesn't look usable after 90hz. Remember, frequencies as high as 250hz cannot be localized, some of us may want to cross higher to prevent mids from distorting. 
*some people may want to run 1000w into this thing, here's how it would look like for the subwoofer:








Heck, it looks like it's xmax limited all the way to 90hz. Also remember it has significant inductance and it rolls off after 90hz which itself will be high distortion in FR. Overall, there is no application for this sub and 1000 watts without getting at least 10% distortion. 

*So the scientific method doesn't tell you "it sounds good" or "it sounds bad" it tells everything you want to know about the performance of this driver as long as you know how to ask it. So let's try.
*By how much is manufacturer's xmax figure overrated? 62% (8mm-13mm)
*By how much is manufacturer's sealed box figure overrated? 60% (.5ft3-.8ft3) 
*At most how much power should we give this sub in a proper sealed box playing as low as 20hz and not reach the threshold of audible distortion on any material? 85w

3. Superjay and the mob
*it sounds good, trust me
*I heard it, it sounds good, trust me
*audio judge: I heard it integrated in a system that introduces a million variables that impact sound, but I used my golden ear to tell you it sounds good, trust me

Did I miss anything?


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

Since we are in the 376 post of this thread, lets re-ask all these questions that are unanswered. Get me a 1 to 10 list of questions and I'll ask Lambros to address the questions without opinion, name calling or any of the other nonsense we keep seeing.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

IamMurph said:


> I try to look at both sides of the conversation. Hand made woofers cost more to produce then mass produced Japanese woofers. That is a statement of fact. That is part of the cost difference between an Ultra woofer and a Image Dynamics woofer.
> 
> To answer the above two questions. I am no expert on production. *I don't fully understand the data being presented.* These woofers are designed to be in a small sealed enclosure. They work well in a small ported enclosure as well.
> 
> ...


well i came back into this, only because there might be an opportunity to EDUCATE.

But first things first : I will share an observation, through many decades of audio, signal processing, and electronics background :

*Those who "criticize" audio measurements ... "not accurate", they say, or "not comprehensive", etc ... always ALWAYS end up revealing that they don't understand the measurements ... what they mean, what they can tell you ... in the first place. ALWAYS. It never, ever fails.*

And now, on to the education 

The VALUE of objective measurements is many-fold :

1. You don't have to take someone's (biased) "word for it."

2. They allow you to UNDERSTAND and COMPARE devices without listening to them  This is a HUGE "plus" to the consumer. If we have an adequate suite of measurements, that give a COMPREHENSIVE picture of how a device "sounds" ... be it an amplifier, or a piston-range driver ... i don't need to listen, to KNOW how it sounds. Any more than i need to be on the moon, to know how fast a hammer will fall. For piston-range drivers, the frequency response, transient response (the impulse response tells you the output for ANY input signal, based on the convolution theorem for linear systems. But at some point, the system is NOT linear, you say? PERFECT ... that's EXACTLY what the Klippel is for !!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and large signal distortion tell you EVERYTHING about the sound. *The "sound" is NOTHING MORE than all of this stuff taken together !!!*

3. Good measurements will TELL you how a driver performs in ANY enclosure ... without building ALL of them and listening to ALL of them! The value of such a proposition should be pretty damn obvious. *PLEASE ... i implore you ... ponder the value of this statement.*

CASE IN POINT :

*If you take the right measurements of a driver in FREE-AIR ... proper application of those measurements will tell you EVERYTHING about how the driver performs in ANY enclosure.*

Sound like magic? Crazy talk? Not at all ... the process was outlined by the ground-breaking work of Thiele & Small (and Beranek before them) about 30 or 40 years ago. Of course, the classic T/S parameters really only apply to "small signals", where the driver is still LINEAR.

Where the Klippel has developed "landmark status", is that it elevates the T/S work to LARGE signals ... thereby, providing a COMPREHENSIVE description of how a piston-driver sounds ... for ANY signal of interest, in ANY enclosure.

This, my friends, is the VALUE of science. For those who understand it, this means we no longer have to listen ... and trust ... "guru opinions", and the "hearsay of royalty". It also means we can cry ******** when a manufacturer is trying to give us a line of nonsense. Many of us find this path to knowledge very refreshing, and very valuable indeed 

*THAT's the value of science. THAT'S why it makes sense to rely heavily on unbiased, objective measurements.*

Don't understand a bit of what we're talking about? Fine ... but at least do us one simple favor : PLEASE don't criticize that which you don't understand.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> I'm going to poll together what the 3 sources are claiming in order to review the usefulness of information from:
> 1. The manufacturer
> 2. Scientific approach
> 3. Superjay and the mob
> ...


Good Summary!


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> I'm going to poll together what the 3 sources are claiming in order to review the usefulness of information from:
> 1. The manufacturer
> 2. Scientific approach
> 3. Superjay and the mob
> ...


Quoted because it needs to be read. 

I do get a chuckle though out of the tards and the thread at Sound Domain who say that looking at price is stupid.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

lycan said:


> well i came back into this, only because there might be an opportunity to EDUCATE.
> 
> But first things first : I will share an observation, through many decades of audio, signal processing, and electronics background :
> 
> ...


Bah...if there is anything that needs to be quoted over an over it's this ^

Price is very important. None of us have unlimited funds, if that were the case we would always have a speaker custom made out of dry carbon, forged metals etc

But if an exorbitant price doesn't influence your purchase, the mediocre performance of the driver should.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

IamMurph said:


> Since we are in the 376 post of this thread, lets re-ask all these questions that are unanswered. Get me a 1 to 10 list of questions and I'll ask Lambros to address the questions without opinion, name calling or any of the other nonsense we keep seeing.


FINALLY!

To think, it only took us 10 pages of what you described above to get to some sort of progress.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

so... I just read this on the first page: "Zmax Maximum variation of Inductance allowed at XL 10%"

If that is the case this threshold of distortion is reached at +-3mm xmax haha


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

Since everyone here thinks the Klippel is the end all be all of testing, and is all that is needed to measure the quality and sound of a speaker...please tell me what the very best subwoofer on the market is...regardless of price.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

lycan said:


> well i came back into this, only because there might be an opportunity to EDUCATE.
> 
> But first things first : I will share an observation, through many decades of audio, signal processing, and electronics background :
> 
> ...


I cannot argue with any of this...but a critical listening exam of the loudspeaker must be a part of every battery. Every manufacturer uses a critical listening exam as the final test. They already know how it sounds to a computer...how does it sound to people...all kinds of people. We call in people from all over the factory to listen using their choice of music (always a lossless recording) to A/B test against other speakers in the same class. people who are specially trained to listen and people who have zero experience with critical listening. This gives a better demographic sample of the general public. i have been to and worked with many many factories, both stateside and abroad, and each and every one of the uses critical listening as the final exam.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

As people have explained, there are a number of different parameters that can describe a subwoofer's performance. So, obviously the "best" would have to be confined to certain categories. In the end, it's ultimately going to be very goal-dependent and environment-specific. For example, a so-called "small box sub" will probably measure quite differently from one that's designed for, say, IB applications -- that doesn't make one better than the other, just different. But make no mistake about it, we can predict which will be better for a particular application based on a comprehensive set of measured parameters.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

superjay said:


> I cannot argue with any of this...but a critical listening exam of the loudspeaker must be a part of every battery. Every manufacturer uses a critical listening exam as the final test. They already know how it sounds to a computer...how does it sound to people...all kinds of people. We call in people from all over the factory to listen using their choice of music (always a lossless recording) to A/B test against other speakers in the same class. people who are specially trained to listen and people who have zero experience with critical listening. This gives a better demographic sample of the general public. i have been to and worked with many many factories, both stateside and abroad, and each and every one of the uses critical listening as the final exam.


When a speaker fails the final exam, what happens then? Do they redesign it? If so, how?


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Funky pup


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

superjay said:


> Since everyone here thinks the Klippel is the end all be all of testing, and is all that is needed to measure the quality and sound of a speaker...please tell me what the very best subwoofer on the market is...regardless of price.


What is this need to be told? Why don't you tag along and try to answer your own questions? 

Btw, have you ever seen "How Do They Do It" on science channel? They had a section on speaker manufacturing. At the end of the production line they simply fed the sub a bunch of power for a second or two and boxed it. The test is simply a binary broken not broken design. How do you think they build these things? Trial and error? :laugh:


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

that's during production...(it was Focal's factory BTW) during development critical listening is vital


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> When a speaker fails the final exam, what happens then? Do they redesign it? If so, how?


depends what the problem is...


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

superjay said:


> I cannot argue with any of this.


You have consistently argued against it entirely.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

I tried internet dating once.. true story. Anyways, before I tried eharmony I kept getting set up with fat bitches with no teeth that wouldn't put out, and when one finally did it was meh..

so I tried eharmony, and they let me pick the characteristics of the girls I wanted to meet.. so guess what, no blind dates with fat bitches. Every eharmony characteristic based choice brought me pretty much what I was looking for. I am sure I would have kept one of their results but I move around a lot and like to experience different things. But seriously I was WAAAAYYY further ahead when I wasn't dating fat bitches I met on some annoymous internet site and getting stuck with fat bitches that wouldn't put out.


I love seeing the characteristics of my potential conquests before I put out for a steak dinner.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> I cannot argue with any of this...but a critical listening exam of the loudspeaker must be a part of every battery. Every manufacturer uses a critical listening exam as the final test. They already know how it sounds to a computer...how does it sound to people...all kinds of people. We call in people from all over the factory to listen using their choice of music (always a lossless recording) to A/B test against other speakers in the same class. people who are specially trained to listen and people who have zero experience with critical listening. This gives a better demographic sample of the general public. i have been to and worked with many many factories, both stateside and abroad, and each and every one of the uses critical listening as the final exam.


superjay, in all sincerity, what you gotta understand is this : for the better part of 40, 50 even 60 years, thousands (literally) of audio engineers have devoted entire careers to studying WHY things sound the way they do. Correlating what is heard, to what is measured ... using advanced mathematics, electronics and signal processing along the way. I've already described the reasons why ...

It's no joke, no exaggeration to state that, when the Klippel is "listening" to a speaker, the knowledge base of THOUSANDS of engineers, and probably TENS OF THOUSANDS of subjects, are listening too. And guess what? NONE of them are lying. NONE of them are trying to make a buck, when your report is given to you (except, of course, the manufacturer of the test device. But he's got no horse in the race, no "favorites" to peddle).

All these high-tech phrases like frequency response, intermod distortion, etc. are _not_ some laboratory geek-speak that's totally disconnected from the "real world". These are the VERY parameters that describe ... in objective, quantifiable terms ... exactly how a piston-range driver will "sound" ... and exactly _why_.

In closing, please remember this addage :

*MUSIC is emotion, but AUDIO (that is, the reproduction of music through electrical, mechanical and acoustic means) is SCIENCE*


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

With every attempt of superjay to block himself for the scientific approach I am more and more convinced that he is the best marketer for a bs company. I mean what else can Sonda want? He is perfect for the job, not only does he never question the profit motives of these car audio companies but he actually believes his critical listening argument. He is sold _himself_ on every sneaky scheme to sell a subpar product. Not only that, he has an impenetrable resistance to any breakthrough in acoustic engineering.

Heck if he indulged in learning he might hate his job


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> With every attempt of superjay to block himself for the scientific approach I am more and more convinced that he is the best marketer for a bs company.


Well, his company also uses the world famous rapper, Big Deuce, to sell Powerbass products. After all, Big Deuce brought you monster chart topping hits, such as... Sorry, I am drawing a blank here. Who is Big Deuce again and who here uses Powerbass?


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

ChrisB said:


> Well, his company also uses the world famous rapper, Big Deuce, to sell Powerbass products. After all, Big Deuce brought you monster chart topping hits, such as... Sorry, I am drawing a blank here. Who is Big Deuce again and who here uses Powerbass?


I think I heard Big Deuce's #1 biggest hit this morning.. I believe it was called splunk im in the toilet... don't quote me on that...


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## WOOFERNTWEETER (Aug 16, 2010)

IamMurph said:


> Since we are in the 376 post of this thread, lets re-ask all these questions that are unanswered. Get me a 1 to 10 list of questions and I'll ask Lambros to address the questions without opinion, name calling or any of the other nonsense we keep seeing.


 just got home from MIDWESTSPL FINALS.... 2nd place in advanced sq with the YUKON with ULTRA LV-12'S and all ULTRA amps!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Congratulations! (is that good?)


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

Wow, good for you


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

WOOFERNTWEETER said:


> just got home from MIDWESTSPL FINALS.... 2nd place in advanced sq with the YUKON with ULTRA LV-12'S and all ULTRA amps!!!!!!!!!!!


What was the guy who took first running? That's what I'm gonna buy.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Knobby Digital said:


> What was the guy who took first running? That's what I'm gonna buy.


I heard they swap spots so that everyone of the two gets a prize at some point. Sooner or later you'll have to Ultrafy


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

WOOFERNTWEETER said:


> just got home from MIDWESTSPL FINALS.... 2nd place in advanced sq with the YUKON with ULTRA LV-12'S and all ULTRA amps!!!!!!!!!!!


*Congratulations !*:coolgleamA:

How much of this did you *get*? 

Midwestspl - Fun and Exciting Car Stereo Competition!

*2010 Finals*
_Prize Fund_
- *$4300* -


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

SuperDuperPosterJay 67494 :indian_chief:


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Knobby Digital said:


> What was the guy who took first running? That's what I'm gonna buy.


LOL!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

WOOFERNTWEETER said:


> just got home from MIDWESTSPL FINALS.... 2nd place in advanced sq with the YUKON with ULTRA LV-12'S and all ULTRA amps!!!!!!!!!!!


Congratulations! With the discovery of the new evidence of Ultra's true superiority, we now must now ignore all the klippel results, as 2nd place at a competition mean waaaay more than klippel results do....much more accurate!


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## WOOFERNTWEETER (Aug 16, 2010)

this is crazy how one speaker can cause so much drama... whats gonna happen if he gives an amp up for testing???


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

QUOTE FROM SOUND DOMAIN - OFF TOPIC



tinctorus said:


> denim said:
> 
> 
> > *I think if Lambro's addressed some of their questions, it would halt their flaming. I understand he is a busy guy, but it would help if he was the one that answered.*
> ...


the fact is, I went over there to stir the pot, and it turned into a ****storm because I underestimated some of the people there. Once I did start in with legitimate responses it was too late, and I became a target regardless of what else was being said.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Personally

I think Lambros has picked the best course or tactic !


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

superjay said:


> QUOTE FROM SOUND DOMAIN - OFF TOPIC
> 
> 
> 
> the fact is, I went over there to stir the pot, and it turned into a ****storm because I underestimated some of the people there. Once I did start in with legitimate responses it was too late, and I became a target regardless of what else was being said.


So, what you're saying is there _is_ rational thought in SDOT?


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

cajunner said:


> not sure where that was positioned, and by whom, but without small signal testing, the Klippel's graphic representation wouldn't be what they are. It is the variation between small signal and large signal that represents the total picture of what is going on in a transducer, where if you just look at the T/S parameters you might have an idea, but once you put power to it the Klippel is the test that makes sense of what the woofer is doing under power.


 this is what I've been saying all along



cajunner said:


> Now, I don't have the same amount of experience as you do, and I am not sure how you make your living, but if somebody were to surmise what it looks like you do, they would say you are involved in the transfer of Chinese work for products sold in America, just by what you've involved yourself with here.


I design product in China for sale in the US/EURO/AUS markets, as Chinese market product won't fly here. 



cajunner said:


> That you have amassed a total of posts on Sound Domain to a degree that simply boggles my mind, I wonder if you do anything other than post messages on audio boards, but I will say it looks suspicious, it looks like you and Ultra have something going on.


I type quickly, and respond a few times a day on SD. i work from home, and spend a lot of time on my computer talking with customers and the factory, so I'm on all hours of the day and night. it's tiring, and frankly, I'm looking for an office so I can leave work at work.


cajunner said:


> Like, defective magnets being shipped out of China and "hand assembled" here in America, or cost overruns, old stock, pieces of defunct lines, detritus from the belly of the Chinese factory monster, pieces of steel that were dedicated to this production run or that one, and Lambros says, "ship it here, I'll make it work" and by opening the ID on some top plates to fit his design, he has an in on lower cost source materials, but more importantly, he is "hand assembling, from parts made in an American factory, by American workers" as a tagline. Or, perhaps not.
> 
> That's all conspiracy theory speak, but it just makes sense on a basic level that you have taken up the sword to fight Lambros' battle, whatever the vested interest is in it, it is rarely an altruistic endeavor.
> 
> ...


I have zero interest in Ultra as a company other than Lambros is a friend, and I trust the product. I cannot comment on design or engineering specifics, or the parts used, other than to say I have done a short tear down, and I would have no problem using or selling such a product. 



BoostedNihilist said:


> I think I heard Big Deuce's #1 biggest hit this morning.. I believe it was called splunk im in the toilet... don't quote me on that...


That was not my idea, I was not in the marketing department at PB. My title was Technical Director, and I developed all product, wrote all manuals, and was responsible for the tech support and returns departments. 

Deuce is a great guy who was looking to start a music career. It was beneficial to both Deuce and Powerbass to form such a relationship. i can say, without question, it was a successful marketing campaign.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> the fact is, I went over there to stir the pot, and it turned into a ****storm because I underestimated some of the people there.


Yeah . . . stick your dick in a hornets nest and you're bound to get *STUNG !*


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

superjay said:


> QUOTE FROM SOUND DOMAIN - OFF TOPIC
> 
> 
> 
> the fact is, I went over there to stir the pot, and it turned into a ****storm because I underestimated some of the people there. Once I did start in with legitimate responses it was too late, and I became a target regardless of what else was being said.


I asked two questions in post #361 that were never answered. They were regarding the disconnect between Lambros' claims and the measurements. If you want questions to answer, start with those.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

361 is a post from Murph


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Yeah, except it isn't.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1138651-post361.html


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

superjay said:


> 361 is a post from Murph


Oh sweet Jesus. This post explains a lot.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

WOOFERNTWEETER said:


> this is crazy how one speaker can cause so much drama... whats gonna happen if he gives an amp up for testing???


Heaven help us if Ant decides to obtain some Audio Precision gear: AP High Performance Audio Analyzer & Audio Test Instruments : Service & Support


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

ah...no glasses, laptop screen, 351 looked like 361


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Fair enough. Anyway, I'd like to hear Lambros' take on the results to see if they mesh with his impressions and design goals. That could clear a lot up. So, if you're friendly with him, pass it on.


----------



## DUATH (May 8, 2005)

Good response.


----------



## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

superjay said:


> Jesus, you people have no idea how to argue with facts, do you? personal attacks, and pejoratives don't make for a proper discussion





> have any of you retards actually HEARD the Ultra?


*Isn't this where we started?*

I thought, after our conversation on the phone the other day, you had a loop to close here on the above comment, man. 

And I guess I need to clarify that I never threatened you on this forum for calling me names. I simply said, "I'd like to see you call me that to my face". 

Per our phone conversation, you weren't calling ME names...just someone else - but you were engaging in the Internet equivalent of overhearing a conversation in the next room, busting in, and yelling insults. 

I've gone back and re-read the thread and I can't find any post backing off your first post. Polite reminder.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

VP Electricity said:


> *Isn't this where we started?*
> 
> I thought, after our conversation on the phone the other day, you had a loop to close here on the above comment, man.
> 
> ...





superjay said:


> have any of you retards actually HEARD the Ultra?


He was speaking of multiple retards apparently.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

I couldn't swear to it but i may be one of the retards :blush:

I believe i am a moron too/per previous posting :blush:


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Quote Removed per request and edited accordingly


We were asked to re-test this subwoofer. We never made a choice to highlight a competitors product for the purpose of personal gain by tearing down another competitor.

We are here to test drivers for the Forum. We will never post test reports on a driver that is not sent to us by a forum member or on behalf of the forum. In fact unless specifically requested we will not post information on our own drivers. If we receive a driver a week we will probably test a driver a week. The Klippel unit is working well given the limited modules we have and the lack of a laser. While the data is not perfect it does give an very useful view into the large signal behavior of a driver.

Matt is a capable installer with a technical background from helping me over the years. He is a very capable operator for testing with a good understanding. Technical geek-speak would be more up my alley though. 

There is no hidden agenda going on here. I agree that the start of Klippel testing was not what anyone wanted and I agree that there was a period of time that was completely wasted. Klippel returned the unit with no reports of any kind. You have my permission to request those reports on behalf of this forum if you chose. I have never tried to deflect or defend the attacks on Matt because some were not correct, but to some extent they were spot on. Matts worst trait is over-committing/promising. 

Jeff your time line is a off btw.


Eric Stevens
Image Dynamics


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Eric Stevens any thoughts on the Ultra subwoofer you'd care to share?


----------



## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

superjay said:


> QUOTE FROM SOUND DOMAIN - OFF TOPIC
> 
> 
> 
> the fact is, I went over there to stir the pot, and it turned into a ****storm because I underestimated some of the people there. Once I did start in with legitimate responses it was too late, and I became a target regardless of what else was being said.


You seem to have left out a large portion of that quote there "Super" jay


THIS thread would have NEVER gotten to where it is if YOU had'nt proven yourself to be such a blatant ******* with ZERO knowledge of how things work "subwoofers,electricity,amperage amoung the few" AND by YOU sending your "chronies" in here from sound domain...Or should I call them the "super"jay cheerleaders since that is essentially what they are, I mean hell it's obvious that YOU are the "leader" of the pack over there with your 68 THOUSAND posts...

You know how it is on internet forums, Whoever has THE MOST post's has the largest E-Penis and is therefore the "commander in chief" of that particular board


FWIW Here is the rest of the quote jay left out
Originally Posted By: denim
I think if Lambro's addressed some of their questions, it would halt their flaming. I understand he is a busy guy, but it would help if he was the one that answered. 

Nobody even asked that the OWNER specifically answer questions about the sub, just that SOMEONE, ANYONE that works for the company would answer some question's...Instead of answering the damn questions that were being asked the owner/worker instead asked taht the thread be deleted because it was not edearing to the sub or the company at all

If someone had just ANSWERED the questions that were asked the thread WOULD NOT have gone the direction it did...Nor would it have done so if superjay wasnt such a retarded [censored] idiot and proved that in not 1 but 2 threads on the same day


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

VP Electricity said:


> *Isn't this where we started?*
> 
> I thought, after our conversation on the phone the other day, you had a loop to close here on the above comment, man.
> 
> ...


You are correct, Ken...i forgot to make a post, as per out agreement. The above statement was not directed toward you, rather it was a general statement.


----------



## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

Oliver said:


> I couldn't swear to it but i may be one of the retards :blush:
> 
> I believe i am a moron too/per previous posting :blush:


Well according to the guys at Sound Dumbain you also apparently have "Sand in your vagina"


----------



## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Awww, I wanted to be the sand in the vagina guy..


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Oliver said:


> Eric Stevens any thoughts on the Ultra subwoofer you'd care to share?


No problem what thoughts are looking for?

Eric


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

tinctorus said:


> Well according to the guys at Sound Dumbain you also apparently have "Sand in your vagina"


Thanks 

*I'll douche !*


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

tinctorus said:


> You seem to have left out a large portion of that quote there "Super" jay
> 
> 
> THIS thread would have NEVER gotten to where it is if YOU had'nt proven yourself to be such a blatant ******* with ZERO knowledge of how things work "subwoofers,electricity,amperage amoung the few" AND by YOU sending your "chronies" in here from sound domain...Or should I call them the "super"jay cheerleaders since that is essentially what they are, I mean hell it's obvious that YOU are the "leader" of the pack over there with your 68 THOUSAND posts...
> ...


look at the thread...i didn't start it. i signed up here after that thread was made. i didn't even know about this thread, and pretty much refused to participate here until this thread came up. i don't run SD, I'm just a mod there, and happen to have a lot of posts. most of them are in Off Topic.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Eric Stevens said:


> No problem what thoughts are looking for?
> 
> Eric


Is this sub, based on it's testing results

A] Impressive
B] average and a bit over-priced
C] A must have


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Oliver said:


> Is this sub, based on it's testing results
> 
> A] Impressive
> B] average and a bit over-priced
> C] A must have


Sorry I do not feel it would be appropriate to answer the above.

I would be glad to answer questions of a technical nature though.

Eric


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I'd love to know more about:
*the need for inductance treatment in subwoofers (or lack of)
*are some offset suspension built like that for a purpose or is it a tolerance issue and therefore not desirable
*your point of view on whether a speaker should be suspension limited, motor limited, or optimized so that both reach the 10% distortion profile at the same time

Nice of you to hold the Klippel. I'll abuse the opportunity to drop of a dozen drivers for testing this week. :beerchug:


----------



## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

cvjoint said:


> I'd love to know more about:
> *the need for inductance treatment in subwoofers (or lack of)
> *are some offset suspension built like that for a purpose or is it a tolerance issue and therefore not desirable
> *your point of view on whether a speaker should be suspension limited, motor limited, or optimized so that both reach the 10% distortion profile at the same time
> ...


quit threatening me with it and just bring me some drivers...


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

iDtech said:


> quit threatening me with it and just bring me some drivers...


LOL


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Eric, now you know why that Klippel is no longer in my basement. A thick skin is required, and I knew that going in. But this particular subwoofer is a drama producing machine of epic proportions.

The constant requests to retest it, and the attempts to find any excuse as to why it was my fault the sub tested poorly was really pathetic from that crowd. Now that this is the FOURTH time the sub's been tested (3 by me), it's pretty clear what it is. 

Thinking about it, I do have to pay major tribute to guys like Galileo who not only faced ridicule, but also the religious inquisitions of the time that liked to do things like poke you with hot sticks and just kill you. I can't imagine the giant ****ing balls guys like Copernicus and Galileo must have had. 

Here I just froth because of a few idiots on the internet. Magic is so much easier to believe because it's spoon fed to you and requires no effort in experiment and learning.


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> I'd love to know more about:
> *the need for inductance treatment in subwoofers (or lack of)
> 
> *In a subwoofer I believe the inductance to be of little importance when analyzing the big picture. We are typically playing 80Hz and down and even at 5mH of inductance on a sub wired for 8 ohms the low frequency cutoff is 250 Hz and and octave down from that is 125Hz so there would be little to no affect caused by the inductance at 80Hz. In addition if crossed at 80Hz we are typically -6dB at 80 Hz minimizing any effect at that frequency further.
> ...


I look forward to testing your drivers. :beerchug:

Eric


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

MiniVanMan said:


> The constant requests to retest it, and the attempts to find any excuse as to why it was my fault the sub tested poorly was really pathetic from that crowd. Now that this is the FOURTH time the sub's been tested (3 by me), i*t's pretty clear what it is. *


 . . . and this is *why the Klippel shouldn't be used !*

It has given us several sets of faulty readings and obviously cannot be trusted.

The recalibration only made it do the same thing again 

Now that that's settled . . . who wants one ?


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*IDMAX*


> I prefer motor dominated with more excursion than necessary, also combined with a low Q.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

iDtech said:


> quit threatening me with it and just bring me some drivers...


Vifas were on backorder, BG planars were backorder and the AE are built with 3 week lead time. The BG planars have been holding me back for over 5 weeks now sigh. PE said they shipped them earlier last week. I'm almost done breaking in everything else that is here.


----------



## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

Eric,

Will you stop saying you will test drivers, looking over my shoulder does not count....


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

iDtech said:


> Eric,
> 
> Will you stop saying you will test drivers, looking over my shoulder does not count....


No looking just cracking the whip on your slow hind quarters.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't think you have enough whip to get Matt moving...lol.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

*yawn* this got boring


----------



## WOOFERNTWEETER (Aug 16, 2010)

superjay said:


> *yawn* this got boring


Lambrose needs to post something to get it all started again...


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I think Eric will give an unbiased review of the woofer. If he needs to hear one I'll bring him mine. Mine is an LV12SQ, so it's not the same, but it's very similar. Matt has the Klippel report for it...he ran it about 6 months ago


----------



## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

superjay said:


> Matt has the Klippel report for it...*he ran it about 6 months ago*


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

If Matt still has it stored I'd love for him to post it to show the differences between the LV and the LV-SQ...similar, but notable differences


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

superjay said:


> *yawn* this got boring


A couple questions were asked of you. If you're bored maybe you can answer or get the answers to them.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

they're not for me to answer...I'm waiting to hear back on them. I'm happy to deliver the message from side to side, but since i had nothing to do with development, and don't have na interest in the company, i would prefer to have them answered by lambros


----------



## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Well since you're yawning, maybe you can give your take.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I have. none of you care to listen. The only real issue I have is the spider, because it's inverted, during extreme activity, if the rear of the woofer is exposed, you can HEAR the spider rub against the basket. But only during decrescendo transients when low mid to mid is absent and sub bass from 50-75hz is heavy. The occasion to witness this is rare, but it does happen. When mounted correctly (motor in the enclosure) there is zero evidence of this. My only real concern is that this might lead to eventually rubbing through the spider. When I mentioned that the spider is inverted I didn't meant that it was proprietary or patented, or the reason the sub sounds good...as was inferred.


----------



## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

We know you've heard it and liked it.

I'm speaking more of the specifics asked. The qualities purported in the _press kit_ given to dealers haven't been shown in this or previous tests of the woofer. You accept Klippel data as valid, and the Ultra's showing wasn't as strong as a woofer by a brand you believe you're above.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

again, not my place to answer that


----------



## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

I'll accept that as an admission of fanboi-ism.


And in conclusion:



iDtech said:


> As I like to say I can make a Radio Shack sub woofer sound good.
> 
> Think about that.:rolleyes2:


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I will admit to being a friend of the owner, and of several people who are team members, but I will argue forever about a product i believe in. not just one where I know people.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I think fanboy is a little strong to describe me. It's not like the anti-fanboy sentiment we have going on here with everyone else.


----------



## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

If you like the woofer, that's fine. But your whole schtick has an assload of inconsistencies. That's all.

Also, I think you're lumping this forum together a bit much.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Matt I emailed you to request your address. The last batch of speakers are in. I'm also done breaking in all but the tweeters. I can drive 'em to your footstep as early as tomorrow afternoon. 

I don't have any Ultra bootylicious LV-10s but everything I picked has some breakthroughs in speaker design. All of them together cost as much as 2 LV-10s. 

2x Tang Band W3-1364SA wideband 3 inch woofers. Highlights: bamboo cone, aluminum phaseplug, underhung, copper shorting ring, neodymium motor.

2x BG Neo 8 Widebanders 3"x 7". Highlights: planar, neodymium push-pull magnet system, Kaladex diaphragm, FEA design. 

2x Vifa xt25sc90-04 1" tweeter. Highlights: neodymium magnet, patents: dual Ring Radiator diaphragm and wave-guide center plug.

2xB&C 6NDL44 7" midbass. Highlights: neodymium motor, 1.7" copper voice coil on a polyimide former, die-cast aluminum chassis, voice coils are wound in two layers inside-outside around polyimide or fiberglass formers, aluminum shorting ring, cooling path through the magnet assembly, Finite Element Analysis (FEA).

3x Acoustic Elegance IB12A-8 12" subwoofers. Highlights: Lamda motor design: full length copper Faraday ring. 

1x Seas CA26RFX 10" woofer. Highlights: bumped backplate, injection moulded metal basket, massive spider and free flowing basket.


----------



## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

superjay said:


> Mine is an LV12SQ, so it's not the same, but it's very similar. Matt has the Klippel report for it...he ran it about 6 months ago


So Matt, where is the report for the 12 inch driver? What other drivers were tested and not posted during the time the Klippel "was not working properly". Since we now know that the post-calibration results correlate well with the pre-calibration (and pre-ID) results, why not post some more stuff?


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

results of this weren't posted because I asked him to test it for ME so I could build the right enclosure for it. At the time I didn't even know it belonged to this forum.


----------



## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Posting the results seems like the right thing to do.


----------



## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

95Maxima said:


>


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

superjay said:


> results of this weren't posted because I asked him to test it for ME so I could build the right enclosure for it. At the time I didn't even know it belonged to this forum.


Let me get this straight. They are testing drivers for other people, with a forum owned device and not posting results. So some ****stick such as yourself can come in here babbling without showing ANY proof? OR are you blowing smoke up our asses again? 

This does not look good for Homestar-Runner.


----------



## M-Dub (Nov 29, 2006)

:lurk:


----------



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

This has gone well


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

I know for a fact that Ant will allow testing without posting the results, given that the individual pays for it. Another reason I didn't like keeping the Klippel. 

But, I seriously doubt Jay paid the minimum $200.00 to have his LV12 Klippel tested. So, either he's lying, or ID is. I'm inclined at this point to think it's Jay. However, Jay may have sent them to ID to have T/S parameters measured so he could build his box. That I could believe because it would answer a lot of questions about Jay. For one, for all his supposed audio knowledge, he has no way to derive T/S parameters on his own, and two, he doesn't know the difference between small signal (published T/S parameters), and large signal, Klippel generated parameters.

That would explain a lot.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

cajunner said:


> since 2009...


this, to me, was the icing on the cake.
had you put 2010, it wouldn't have been nearly as funny.


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Can someone else on our forum be in charge of the Klippel? Is it really that hard to use?? I would volunteer if someone can tell me how to run it!


----------



## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

SuperFattyBoomBattyFanboiJay got his wish of stirring the pot with his klippel testing comment.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

This is actually turning my stomach now. Whatever is going on, it's not on the up and up, and it's not in the interests of the community, but rather profit motivated for a few individuals. 

Frankly, it's disgusting. Again, it's why I returned the Klippel. The sleaziness of this industry is not something I wanted to get entrenched in. I think the forum saw that at the time and voted for me to have the Klippel. Now that we know what happens when it does end up in the hands of an industry "professional" (used loosely), the community's concerns have been realized.

Absolutely disgusting. I'm going to add another to the ongoing conspiracy theory. Ant has a vested interest in Ultra. I was asked to repeatedly test the Ultra again, and again by him. He couldn't, and wouldn't just accept it that the results were what they were. 

Now he's easily swayed by ID telling him that the Klippel is out of spec, giving Ant hope that "I" was at fault in the testing of the Ultra LV10, and not the subwoofer itself just being mediocre. I can guarantee that many people were in his ear about me being incompetent, and inexperienced. When in fact, I probably have more professional experience with test equipment than all of ID collectively combined, to include equipment that would make their heads explode.

Yeah, I'm not qualified to run a Klippel according to some of these yahoos, but I'm qualified to calibrate the laser, and FLIR optics on one of these. That was my job in the Army. A bit more advanced than a speaker. Just a little though. 

YouTube - 82nd Airborne Apaches blast roadside bombers 

Oh, and now I work with these. I get to calibrate the flip of atomic particles through gradient fields in a large magnet.

YouTube - How the MRI works

Real science at work. Making real differences in the world. But go ahead and keep elevating these yahoos to "royalty" (to coin Lycan's term) status when all they want is your money.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

MiniVanMan said:


> I know for a fact that Ant will allow testing without posting the results, given that the individual pays for it. Another reason I didn't like keeping the Klippel.
> 
> But, I seriously doubt Jay paid the minimum $200.00 to have his LV12 Klippel tested. So, either he's lying, or ID is. I'm inclined at this point to think it's Jay. However, Jay may have sent them to ID to have T/S parameters measured so he could build his box. That I could believe because it would answer a lot of questions about Jay. For one, for all his supposed audio knowledge, he has no way to derive T/S parameters on his own, and two, he doesn't know the difference between small signal (published T/S parameters), and large signal, Klippel generated parameters.
> 
> That would explain a lot.


the fact is, Lambros never published T/S parameters for the SQ, so I wanted them. I didn't want to put a ring of clay on my sub, so there goes using the LMS. I asked Matt to run it for me, he said ok. I dropped it off. 

never assume anything.


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

MiniVanMan said:


> But go ahead and keep elevating these yahoos to "royalty" (to coin Lycan's term) status when all they want is your money.


gotta give credit where it's due. i wasn't the first to use that phrase. it started here, in post #196 :



IamMurph said:


> IDtech is the biggest star in this thread. Matt Borgardt is industry royalty.


although, i did react to it ... rather strongly. because science and "royalty" do not mix. never have, never will.

i suspect, there's still some around here that don't understand this ...


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

cajunner said:


> also, ID has a comprehensive testing compendium of most of their competition, as they previously stated. If superjay did have his woofer tested, then the results are in Eric's computer, and all superjay has to do is say the word, and we'll have LV12 results to compare and contrast with other 12" woofers that have already been published on this site.
> 
> We know Matt can do it, as it's been done. We already have the definitions and tutorial stuff so just the graphs and a couple of data sheets should do it, from here on out.
> 
> ...


are youkidding me? yeah...keep those theories rolling. Youprobably think the US was involved with 9/11, too. My factory has its own Klippel. They also have their own anechoic chamber running MLSSA and LMS for small signal testing.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

cajunner said:


> Eric starts talking about getting Matt's butt in gear, after a little hot water comes out of the tap.
> 
> I'm just helping the process, is all...
> 
> ...


read back....I already asked they be posted, if Matt still has them. And if he doesn't I'll gladly bring the sub back over there. i can be there in 20 minutes.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

when you say _MY_ factory..... Sometimes a possessive is just not the thing to use you nomesayin, sayin?


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

when i say MY factory, I mean the one that employs me


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Niebur3 said:


> Can someone else on our forum be in charge of the Klippel? Is it really that hard to use?? I would volunteer if someone can tell me how to run it!


Thats not in Ant's best interest


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

considering I paid for the subwoofer I'm not sure anyone can say "no, you can't post that information". As i said, at the time I didn't know the Klippel belonged to anyone but Eric. i didn't know until a few minutes ago there was a fee involved with its use. The report was for personal use, and I still have a hard copy (If I can find it in the mess that is my garage right now)

I have never asked Eric or Matt to test any of my company's product, and such services have never been offered. All my product is tested at the factory, and results are sent to me with samples.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

cajunner said:


> and the reason your factory couldn't test the Ultra you own, is because it's in China and you are here?
> 
> Is that why you had to ask Matt to test it?
> 
> That would be more sensible in reply than what we can assume, is cause for concern....


that is exactly why...that and I didn't work for this company at the time. I had just left Powerbass when I had the LV12SQ tested, and had not yet left for China to start in this position. I took some time off between PB and Sonda (single dad at the time...needed to take care of some things) so when the sub was tested i was not employed by anyone. i asked a friend to do me a favor, and he did.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

So why did not the driver come with T/S parameters? unknown? A buncha parts off a shelf that were sold glued together?


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Thats not in Ant's best interest


You are right, very naive of me to even post! There always need to be something in it for someone...just the way the world works, I guess.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

chad said:


> So why did not the driver come with T/S parameters? unknown? A buncha parts off a shelf that were sold glued together?


early release...white box, no manual.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I don't find it a necessity to have ID product tested. It would be nice, as it will enlarge the sample of products tested. On the other hand we risk having a debacle on our hands and jeopardize our chances of having other speakers tested. 

From my understanding this is what gets tested: speakers sent on behalf of forum members at their expense. This should mean we can get anything (with ID being a maybe) tested. Maybe there just haven't been a lot of members willing to ship their goods to the test bench :worried:

Anyhow, Ant owns the Klippel from what I know, it's his business what else he decides to have tested on the side. The only loser here is ID, employing labor for Ant's wishes. That is THEIR business, none of ours. I haven't paid a dime on any of this stuff. 

However, if I do ship/drive my drivers over I expect a fair test. At that point I do have an investment, in the interest of honest science, and to better Ant's forum and ours. IMO, MiniVanMan was incorrectly asked to test over and over imo without a probable doubt. As long as these sorts of pressures don't rest on ID until the deal breaks, we have an opportunity to test 99% of the speakers out there. I'm quite alright with that.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

just out of curiosity...who does teh $200 go to?


----------



## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

superjay said:


> just out of curiosity...who does teh $200 go to?


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...d-w6-1721-6-1-2-underhung-midbass-driver.html


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

superjay said:


> early release...white box, no manual.


Then call him and get the T/S parameters......


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

my having this woofer tested had nothing to do with SD (I have fun there, I have no interest in the company, financial or otherwise), or with a chinese company (or any company, for that matter, as I explained before) and was for personal reference only. I had and have no intentions of using these results to compare the LV12SQ to any of my company's woofers, nor do I have any intention to use the results as reference in public forum. if the results need to be published here to satisfy the whiners, then publish them. It's not like they're some big secret.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Well Cajunner if that is what you think is NECESSARY for honest testing then this whole thing fails from the get go. The Klippel is no longer volunteered, as it was in the old days of warewolf and npdang. Furthermore, it's no longer in a 3rd party's hands, ID IS industry affiliated. In fact, if you want to make ID more of a 3rd party you should deny them the right to publish data on their own products. 

Because the Klippel is not owned by us as the people, because the testing is not done by one of us we have to TRUST that ID and ANT will be fair and not skew the results. So far IDs test came out as a perfect copy of MiniVanMan's. That proves that the machine is reliable, and that ID can be reliable as well if it wants to. 

Now, you may not trust ID, that's ok. A test is still worth more than none. Why? Because even though it's not a proper 3rd party test, maybe others will surface in the near future. We can compare results with the ID tests. If they match, then that's more powerful than one test. If they don't, then somebody along the line cheated or failed to use the equipment properly. 

Yes the conditions are not ideal. No, these tests are not useless. No ID does not have to provide tests of their drivers, they can if they want to, but I don't see why they should be forced to do so. It's their call. ID may or may not have speakers that test well. Finding out is not worth it if it means we won't get other testing done at all.


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

My products will not compete with Ultra...different demographics, different price points.

I have defended Ultra from the get go because no one here was, and I thought he needed an advocate. He is a friend, and I like the product. This is a small industry, but there is room for all of us. i don't think there is anyone in this industry more than 3 degrees from anyone else. 

I don't think I'm back tracking, but whatever. i'm happy for them to post the results. Please show me where you got the idea i said posting the results will, in effect, compete with my products. 

it's not a big secret, it's merely an omission. easily remedied.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Ok, now that you understand my point I think you underestimate the probability of worst case scenario. People are driven by incentives, your proposition is good but not incentive proof. You can't ignore the politics of it all because the politics won't ignore you. Make this tradeoff, don't hinge the future of this section on one test. How sad would it be if the LV-10 remains the last addition in the lineup for years to come. I don't have $20 grand to buy one...


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

i gotta side with chad on one simple question ... at least, i think this is where he's been going :

*Why would TWO manufacturers of subwoofers .... not one company, but TWO (ID, and ULTRA) ... need diyma's Klippel to measure T/S small signal parameters of a subwoofer?*

Surely, the Klippel can provide them  But equally as sure, manufacturers of these products have other means to provide this valuable data ... should be part of day-to-day operations at a subwoofer manufacturer, i would think


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

not every company has funds to purchase a Klippel. Diyma doesn't even have all the plug-ins necessary...such as the interferometer (an absolutely necessary tool to SEE the physical distortion of the diaphragm). This is an expensive machine to purchase, own and operate, and not just anyone can interpret results. 

If I need speakers tested on Klippel I'm going to have to send them to someone like Garry Springgay, since i doubt diyma is going to offer theirs to me. Just because we have one in China doesn't mean having one here wouldn't be useful. We just don't have the thousands in liquid finds to buy one.


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> not every company has funds to purchase a Klippel. Diyma doesn't even have all the plug-ins necessary...such as the interferometer (an absolutely necessary tool to SEE the physical distortion of the diaphragm). This is an expensive machine to purchase, own and operate, and not just anyone can interpret results.
> 
> If I need speakers tested on Klippel I'm going to have to send them to someone like Garry Springgay, since i doubt diyma is going to offer theirs to me. Just because we have one in China doesn't mean having one here wouldn't be useful. We just don't have the thousands in liquid finds to buy one.


COMPLETELY misunderstood the point ... again 

you DON'T need a Klippel to measure T/S parameters. There's several other, way cheaper means.

Means that ANY subwoofer manufacturer should have. *This is THE POINT*. Seriously, do you even know what T/S parameters are?

I can't even imagine manufacturing a subwoofer ... over the last few decades, well before the Klippel machine even existed ... without having the means & motivation to provide T/S parameters !!!!!

I'll ask again :

*Why did 2 subwoofer manufacturers need diyma's Klippel to provide T/S parameters on a sub produced by one of them?*


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

lycan said:


> *Why did 2 subwoofer manufacturers need diyma's Klippel to provide T/S parameters on a sub produced by one of them?*


Goes back to my earlier post as well. Jay, you're digging a pretty big hole here. If all you got were T/S parameters then ID wouldn't have thrown it on the Klippel. If you have Klippel data for that subwoofer and it's not posted, and wasn't paid for, then it's a conflict of interest that will ultimately hurt "Ant's" business as independent, private testing is a source of income for him. 

If all you got were T/S parameters, and you couldn't derive those yourself then your credibility is shot as an industry professional. You said you didn't want to put clay on your cone. Fine, then why didn't you use the known volume method of determining Mms, and therefore Vas. You need both those values to get accurate mechanical limits data from the Klippel, so if ID did it for you, they either used mass, or an enclosure. Something that YOU as an industry professional and access to an LMS rig should EASILY be able to do. 

Hell, a lot of us DIYers have at least invested in a WT3. 

Jay, you're spinning in circles so fast you're drilling a hole that'll be a short drop to China. This is unbelievable. Are we sure this isn't AudioJay, I mean SuperDave?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

lycan said:


> *Why would TWO manufacturers of subwoofers .... not one company, but TWO (ID, and ULTRA) ... need diyma's Klippel to measure T/S small signal parameters of a subwoofer?*





lycan said:


> you DON'T need a Klippel to measure T/S parameters. There's several other, way cheaper means.
> 
> *without having the means & motivation to provide T/S parameters !!!!!*
> 
> ...





MiniVanMan said:


> _Fine, then why didn't you use the known volume method of determining Mms, and therefore Vas_. You need both those values to get accurate mechanical limits data from the Klippel, so if ID did it for you, they either used mass, or an enclosure. Something that YOU *as an industry professional* and access to an LMS rig should EASILY be able to do.


*S-U-P-E-R Jay*:laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

But , Alas , So many questions and so much evasiveness !


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

MiniVanMan said:


> Goes back to my earlier post as well. Jay, you're digging a pretty big hole here. If all you got were T/S parameters then ID wouldn't have thrown it on the Klippel. If you have Klippel data for that subwoofer and it's not posted, and wasn't paid for, then it's a conflict of interest that will ultimately hurt "Ant's" business as independent, private testing is a source of income for him.
> 
> If all you got were T/S parameters, and you couldn't derive those yourself then your credibility is shot as an industry professional. You said you didn't want to put clay on your cone. Fine, then why didn't you use the known volume method of determining Mms, and therefore Vas. You need both those values to get accurate mechanical limits data from the Klippel, so if ID did it for you, they either used mass, or an enclosure. Something that YOU as an industry professional and access to an LMS rig should EASILY be able to do.
> 
> ...


exactly. the truth is starting to emerge.

A quick history lesson, for the general reader (dates won't be exact, but the material substance will not be impacted) :

*1950's* : Beranek landmark textbook on Acoustics. None better, before or after. Introduced the notions of electrical models for electro-mechanical-acoustic transducers.

*1970's* : Richard Small's landmark thesis. With help from Thiele (and based heavily on Beranek's earlier work), Small develops the science & modelling of "small signal" ... or linear ... operation of subwoofers. The classic T/S parameters are introduced : these allow you, among many other things, to mathematically "model" or "predict" how a subwoofer will behave in ANY enclosure ... even though you measured it only in free-air  This, to dispel some ignorance displayed earlier in this thread ... and a classic example of the _predictive_ power of good science. Yes .. valid only over the _linear_ range of operation. But nonetheless, tell you _everything_ about a subwoofer's "sound" in that linear range : frequency response, and time domain transient response. For decades, T/S parameters are the BASIS for measuring & modelling drivers in enclosures.

*2000's* : Klippel introduces a machine for measuring not just the _small signal_ parameters of a subwoofer .... but now, the _large signal_ parameters as well. Now, we can measure & understand the large-signal causes & effects of harmonic distortion & intermod distortion. Now, we have the means to understand "the sound" of ANY piston-range driver, for ANY signal level. OF course, the Klippel can provide T/S parameters as well. The universe of "large signals" encompasses "small signals" (but not vice versa).

Once again :

*Why did 2 subwoofer manufacturers need diyma's Klippel to measure T/S data ... data that was understood to be valuable since the 70's, data that ANY manufacturer should readily have at their fingertips for the past 30 years ... on a subwoofer manufactured by one of them?*

You know, i've actually been pretty damn tolerant so far. That time is ending 

*The ignorance on the "other side" of this debate ... regarding how subwoofers are measured, and what that data means ... is ASTONISHING* 

Always happens from "the camp" that tries to downplay the value of *objective measurement*.


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

MiniVanMan said:


> Are we sure this isn't AudioJay, I mean SuperDave?


The style is certainly similar.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> not every company has funds to purchase a Klippel. Diyma doesn't even have all the plug-ins necessary...such as the interferometer (an absolutely necessary tool to SEE the physical distortion of the diaphragm). This is an expensive machine to purchase, own and operate, *and not just anyone can interpret results.*


OK ...

One more time , put the bubble in between the two-lines on the meter.

What this signifies is that the item the level is resting on top of is now level


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

cajunner said:


> I translate this as:
> 
> SuperPosterJay on Sound Domain wanted to make a box for buddy Lambros that was "perfect" and went over to buddy Matt (or Eric) and had his driver tested by the Klippel, that was "broked up" by MiniVanMan.
> 
> ...


:laugh::laugh::laugh: 

I hope everyone is wearing their wadding boots because you can certainly shovel enough to get up to waist level.

Eric


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

cajunner said:


> I'd hazard a guess that the T/S specs one has as a speaker manufacturer don't tell the rest of the story like the Klippel does.
> 
> and, anyone not in possession of Klippel data for their woofer, won't have the means to qualify the T/S specs, or optimize their enclosure, or even tweak the driver's suspension/geometry to produce an accurate driver through the range from linear to non-linear.


Didn't stop subwoofer manufacturers from providing good products, with good enclosure recommendations, for the better part of 30 years before the Klippel arrived.

TRUST ME ... i've seen ZERO evidence that ANYONE on the other side of this debate could even make a "first order" enclosure recommendation based on linear T/S analysis. And then ... actually describe the frequency response & transient response to boot? Forget about it ... you're being WAY too lenient.

I guarantee you, this is NOT a situation of somebody fully comprehending T/S parameters ... and how T/S modeled enclosures would perform ... but yet finding such results a bit "lacking", in need of the "extra" info that a Klippel provides for large signals. The other side of this debate wouldn't know an impulse response from a poptart. That has become all too apparent.

And no ... wiki links from now on won't help.


> now, a salesperson/representative of a company, isn't necessarily the best person to ask about these things.
> 
> those things are functional equivalents of tools and the mechanic handles the tools, not the sales manager/VP of executive privileges.


Fair enough ... but then such an individual is in NO position to argue things like : "The Klippel doesn't have ears" or "The Klippel doesn't measure tonality" or any other such nonsense that's been spewed over this thread.

And it STILL doesn't explain why manufacturer #1 couldn't provide T/S parameters for a subwoofer it manufactured, and therefore manufacturer #2 had to use diyma's Klippel to find them ... a Klippel which was allegedly "out of calibration" and "lacking sufficient support equipment".


> so I think we're getting away from the issue at hand, when we ask superjay why he can't tell the **** from shine-ola, because his is a cursory knowledge that upon further examination, becomes transparent.
> 
> What we know, is that Lambros got two of his products tested for free. Superjay made one possible, and the other, well... that's on Ant. Or wait, Ant made three tests possible with MiniVanMan, then one with Matt, and through superjay's involvement got his 12 tested as well.
> 
> ...


The fundamental problem is that the Klippel is now in biased hands.

Minivanman, and his results, have been completely vindicated. And the Klippel is now in biased hands.

End of ****ing story.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

lycan said:


> i gotta side with chad on one simple question ... at least, i think this is where he's been going :
> 
> *Why would TWO manufacturers of subwoofers .... not one company, but TWO (ID, and ULTRA) ... need diyma's Klippel to measure T/S small signal parameters of a subwoofer?*
> 
> Surely, the Klippel can provide them  But equally as sure, manufacturers of these products have other means to provide this valuable data ... should be part of day-to-day operations at a subwoofer manufacturer, i would think


We dont need Klippel to measure T/S parameters, we have 4 other methods to measure parameters. 

While working with the techs at Klippel to get repeatable LSI tests we were allowed us to use the LPM module for a limited time. I dont believe Matt even ran an LSI test on the driver.

Eric


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

3636 more posts and this thread puts the JBL MS-8 one to dust 

Kelvin


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

*Sarcasm
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Globe icon.
The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Please improve this article and discuss the issue on the talk page.
Look up sarcasm in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.” [1] Some authorities sharply distinguish sarcasm from irony,[2] however others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony.[3]

It is first recorded in English in 1579, in an annotation to The Shepheardes Calender: October:

Tom piper) An Ironicall [Sarcasmus], spoken in derision of these rude wits, whych make more account of a ryming Rybaud,[4] then of skill grounded upon learning and judgment.
—Edmund Spenser[5]

It comes from the ancient Greek σαρκάζω (sarkazo) meaning 'to tear flesh' but the ancient Greek word for the rhetorical concept of taunting was instead χλευασμός (chleyasmόs) Sarcasm appears several times in the Old Testament,; for example it seems to underlie the rhetorical questions of Achish, king of Gath::

Lo, you see the man is mad; why then have you brought him to me? Do I lack madmen, that you have brought this fellow to play the madman in my presence?
—I Sam 21:10-15[6]

Contents
[hide]

* 1 Usage
* 2 Understanding
* 3 Vocal indication
* 4 Sarcasm punctuation
* 5 References
* 6 See also
* 7 External links

[edit] Usage

Dictionary.com describes the use of sarcasm thus:

In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes. It may be used in an indirect manner, and have the form of irony, as in “What a fine musician you turned out to be!” or it may be used in the form of a direct statement, “You couldn't play one piece correctly if you had two assistants.” The distinctive quality of sarcasm is present in the spoken word and manifested chiefly by vocal inflection ...[7]

Hostile, critical comments may be expressed in an ironic way, such as saying "don't work too hard" to a lazy worker. The use of irony introduces an element of humour which may make the criticism seem more polite and less aggressive.
[edit] Understanding

Understanding the subtlety of this usage requires second-order interpretation of the speaker's intentions. This sophisticated understanding is lacking in some people with brain damage, dementia and autism,[8] and this perception has been located by MRI in the right parahippocampal gyrus.[9][10]

Cultural perspectives on sarcasm vary widely with more than a few cultures and linguistic groups finding it offensive to varying degrees and/or a sign of low intelligence or sophistication. RFC 850, the email standard, even includes a warning to be especially careful with it as it "may not travel well".[11]
[edit] Vocal indication

In English, sarcasm in actors is often distinguished from sincere speech by speaking more slowly and with a lower pitch. But other research shows that there are many ways that real speakers signal sarcastic intentions. One study found that in Cantonese sarcasm is indicated by raising the fundamental frequency of one's voice.[12]
[edit] Sarcasm punctuation
Main article: Irony punctuation

Though in the English language there is no standard accepted method to denote irony or sarcasm in written conversation, several forms of punctuation have been proposed. Among the oldest and frequently attested are the percontation point--furthered by Henry Denham in the 1580s--and the irony mark--furthered by Alcanter de Brahm in the 19th century. Both of these marks were represented visually by a backwards question mark (unicode U+2E2E). A more recent example is the snark mark. Each of these punctuation marks are primarily used to indicate that a sentence should be understood at a second level. A bracketed exclamation point and/or question mark as well as scare quotes are also sometimes used to express irony or sarcasm.

In certain Ethiopic languages, sarcasm and unreal phrases are indicated at the end of a sentence with a sarcasm mark called temherte slaq, a character that looks like an inverted exclamation point ¡.*

Guys the royalty line was a joke. As for the people commenting here, lets see your resume and professional experience. 

Two days ago I asked for the list of questions you wanted Lambros to answer? Is anyone going to work on this or are going to keep going in circles like a puppy with worms?


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

http://www.ultracaraudio.com

The website isn't finished but most of the specs are updated.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

IamMurph said:


> Guys the royalty line was a joke. As for the people commenting here, lets see your resume and professional experience.


Irony. :laugh:



> Two days ago I asked for the list of questions you wanted Lambros to answer? Is anyone going to work on this or are going to keep going in circles like a puppy with worms?


I hope you got my two down.


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> Irony. :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you got my two down.


537 posts later, no I don't remember your question and I am not going to reread this tread.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Post 361, IIRC.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

any one of you fanboys have a wiki link explaining why ultra subwoofers are any good? link pls


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

IamMurph said:


> 537 posts later, no I don't remember your question and I am not going to reread this tread.


Sometimes I wonder if you even read the the massive amounts of text you plagiarize onto our thread. You are obviously too lazy get the information you want. Maybe that's why you need royalty, to spoon feed you watered down information.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

IamMurph said:


> Guys the royalty line was a joke.


No, it wasn't ... or else you wouldn't have questioned (in post #202) why i LAUGHED at it 

And you certainly wouldn't be asking this :


> As for the people commenting here, lets see your resume and professional experience.


Not relevant. The Klippel data doesn't need someone of "royalty" to "validate" it. That's the essence of science ... which escapes you, still.


> Two days ago I asked for the list of questions you wanted Lambros to answer? Is anyone going to work on this or are going to keep going in circles like a puppy with worms?


Plenty of questions have been asked in this thread. But we already know the answers to most of them.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

oooohhh I found it, this is why ultra kicks ass

ul·tra   /ˈʌltrə/ Show Spelled
[uhl-truh] Show IPA

–adjective 
1. going beyond what is usual or ordinary; excessive; extreme

The word almost means kicks ass...


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

Ive been in the industry as a professional for over a decade..

the questions you can answer for me are...

how come most people who are into car audio as a hobby are such ****ing idiots?

Why do I have to come to a forum where people do **** themselves to find intelligence?

what's your problem?

Ive spent an entire career selling and installing gear. At first when I was all gung ho I tried to educate the buyer but didnt ever sell ****.. then I started telling them information in monosyllabic terms and merch began to move.

the best sales tool a car audio professional has are usually based on four single syllable words... sentences no longer than four words

examples

This **** will pound
this is the best
dont buy that ****
get this stuff here
you need this stuff
that **** is whack
they dont know how
their **** sucks bag
etc etc...

Murph, I could separate you from your money faster than the speed of sound with an 8 inch subwoofer (Thats one for you ChrisB)


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

IamMurph said:


> As for the people commenting here, lets see your resume and professional experience.


I really don't think making that comment was not only necessary but good for your argument. 

In other words many of us have extensive experience in facets of audio that extend WAY past marketing subwoofers to people that consume stridex by the jug, but also people known in many other technological industries.


You are just not ready for that in this argument.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

BoostedNihilist said:


> Why do I have to come to a forum where people do **** themselves


Evidently we **** ourselves because we are a bunch of retards. :laugh:


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I asked for a Klippel report, that's what I got. I wanted a large signal test. gentlemen, you are inferring whatever you want from what I'm saying, which is, to say the least, sad.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

MiniVanMan said:


> Goes back to my earlier post as well. Jay, you're digging a pretty big hole here. If all you got were T/S parameters then ID wouldn't have thrown it on the Klippel. If you have Klippel data for that subwoofer and it's not posted, and wasn't paid for, then it's a conflict of interest that will ultimately hurt "Ant's" business as independent, private testing is a source of income for him.
> 
> If all you got were T/S parameters, and you couldn't derive those yourself then your credibility is shot as an industry professional. You said you didn't want to put clay on your cone. Fine, then why didn't you use the known volume method of determining Mms, and therefore Vas. You need both those values to get accurate mechanical limits data from the Klippel, so if ID did it for you, they either used mass, or an enclosure. Something that YOU as an industry professional and access to an LMS rig should EASILY be able to do.
> 
> ...


 I did not, at the time, as explained before, have access to an LMS. I could have taken the sub to China to test it, but that would be stupid. Especially considering I have friends who DO have that equipment. I asked matt to test the sub for me, he did. what part of that don't you get?


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> I asked for a Klippel report, that's what I got. I wanted a large signal test. gentlemen, you are inferring whatever you want from what I'm saying, which is, to say the least, sad.


this, from the guy who STATED (post #485) that he wanted T/S parameters.

this, from the guy who CLEARLY doesn't know the difference between large signal & small signal tests.

this, from the guy who thinks manufacturers can't (or won't) supply T/S parameters because they can't afford a Klippel 

dude, the only way to save yourself now is to _leave_ the thread. Best advice i can give you, seriously. You dig yourself in deeper ... and deeper ... with every single word you post. You may not even see it ... but _everyone_ else does.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

once again...putting words in my mouth.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> *the fact is, Lambros never published T/S parameters for the SQ, so I wanted them*. I didn't want to put a ring of clay on my sub, so there goes using the LMS. I asked Matt to run it for me, he said ok. I dropped it off.
> 
> never assume anything.


just for clarity


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

I know what I posted. Does that post mean that the ONLY thing I wanted was T/S parameters?


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

superjay said:


> I know what I posted. Does that post mean that the ONLY thing I wanted was T/S parameters?


please leave. please leave now. Your constant, meaningless gibberish ... and endless contradictions ... add zero value to this thread.


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

what?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

lycan said:


> please leave. please leave now. Your constant, meaningless gibberish ... and endless contradictions ... add zero value to this thread.


He's got his eye on Chad's post count.......another forum conquered. :laugh:


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

post count means nothing...


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

lol, burrrrrn


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

my count was stagnant for a good while, he should have no problem after I get bored again.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

knowledge = directly proportional to post count


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

chad said:


> my count was stagnant for a good while, he should have no problem after I get bored again.


you and me both kimosabe ... although my postage way less than urs


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Meanwhile, the business day here in So. Cal. has come to an end. Still no reply on the Image Dynamics address. Klippel is idle.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

lycan said:


> you and me both kimosabe ... although my postage way less than urs





> Tonto greets the Lone Ranger with the expression "kemosabe", which has also been written "Kemo Sabe" or "Kemo Sabhay". The origin of this expression is somewhat unclear, but James Jewell, an early director of the radio series, said the name comes from a boy's camp located on Mullett Lake, Michigan that his father-in-law had run from 1911 to 1941. The translation was said to mean "trusty scout."


Chad is a very formiddable and trustworthy scout for "*TRUTH*"


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

aww hell.... now I gotta catch up on 600 posts from Total Drama Island....


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

cajunner said:


> I am tactfully inquiring about the nature of your relationship to Matt, to better understand how it is that a Chinese Audio Company man, is able to walk over an American Made product to an American manufacturing facility, and have his woofer tested?
> 
> You did say that you were unemployed, so therefore absolved of any obligation in a fiscal sense as to obtaining Klippel data without the compensation, due to being contracted to a company but if you can do it, I'd like to know what it takes for everyone else to do it?
> 
> ...


my reference to being unemployed at the time was to make known that I had no affiliation to any company. It had nothing to do with payment. i did not know a payment was required, and I did not know the klippel was owned by the forum. said this before.

I have no spoken to matt or eric in a few months. There is no ulterior motive for me being here. This thread was brought to my attention on SD, and I came here to defend Ultra, as i know it is a good sub. 

I would consider my relationship with Matt to be friendly professional. i've met his son, but never hung out with him outside work related events. My relationship with Ant would be considered the same, although I've never met him in person. 

If it comes to be that a fee is requested I am happy to pay it. Had a fee been charged at time of services i would have paid then. 

anything else?


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

wanna hear something funny? I actually _know_ Lambros ... from another forum  I actually _like_ the big lug 

But that's not what this is about. I'm not here to defend or attack any one "person" in particular (well, sure ... it kinda evolved that way). I'm here to _defend the objective science_, to the best of my ability.

just a lil tidbit


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

superjay said:


> This thread was brought to my attention on SD
> 
> anything else?


Now that you mention it !

While you are here ... *please take the time to read some* of the threads here that have knowledge in them


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

All I know is I am tired of reading Wikipedia ****!


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

probably shouldn't state as fact that which cannot be proven


----------



## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

Oliver said:


> Now that you mention it !
> 
> While you are here ... *please take the time to read some* of the threads here that have knowledge in them


not a day goes be i don't learn something knew and useful...a day without learning is a day wasted. I will continue to learn from those both more and less experienced than I until the day i die.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Poor Superjay, came here to rid the world wide web of evil naysayers of Ultra and found we are holding the kryptonite (klippel)!


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## superjay (Oct 1, 2010)

oh neat...still with the personal remarks


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Oh, neat, will respond to just about anything typed.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

so far the only facts which have been provided have been by a machine.. what you got to say about that superjay?


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

lycan said:


> No, it wasn't ... or else you wouldn't have questioned (in post #202) why i LAUGHED at it
> 
> And you certainly wouldn't be asking this :
> Not relevant. The Klippel data doesn't need someone of "royalty" to "validate" it. That's the essence of science ... which escapes you, still.
> Plenty of questions have been asked in this thread. But we already know the answers to most of them.


Did you not see the wink. 
Do I need to post the sarcasm wiki again?


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

BoostedNihilist said:


> any one of you fanboys have a wiki link explaining why ultra subwoofers are any good? link pls


http://www.ultrawiki.com


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Superjay proved something too... his friendship to Ultra. 

This blow-job is a stellar $200.


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

IamMurph said:


> http://www.ultrawiki.com


Hmm....looks like a link misdirect. Let's see. Oh a link fail on top of that.



At least you have figured out what you want your nickname to be. 

(But that's not what other people call you)


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

BoostedNihilist said:


> so far the only facts which have been provided have been by a machine.. what you got to say about that superjay?


Asked and answered.



superjay said:


> I'll never use Dayton speakers in anything...I have pride and good ears.


^This from a Chynee product peddler with experteez in the industree, proficient with da Klippel.


And Murph, a damn wink smiley doesn't erase the stupidity of that post of yours that proves the entire **** went over your head.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

IamMurph said:


> Did you not see the wink.
> Do I need to post the sarcasm wiki again?


There was no wink when i laughed at your claims of "royalty" in this thread (not about yourself, i understand, but about others) ... only confusion, from you, about WHY i laughed.

If it was a "joke" ... why would you be confused at my laughter? Wouldn't that have been the response you were seeking?

Now, of course, after such claims of royalty have been _obliterated_ ... by me, and other defenders of *objective science* ... "it was all a joke".

riiiiiight. whatever helps you sleep at night


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

IamMurph said:


> http://www.ultrawiki.com


Rofl, nice try *****. Learn that on soundumbain 10 years ago?


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

Personal attacks are so third grade.


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

Is that list of required questions done yet. I don't want two or three. I want to make sure when he answers he can be done in one fell swoop.


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

IamMurph said:


> Is that list of required questions done yet. I don't want two or three. I want to make sure when he answers he can be done in one fell swoop.


Your homeboy already has the list and said he would talk to Lambros. So hurry along and get back to fistfucking yourself.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

IamMurph said:


> Personal attacks are so third grade.


And posting entire wikis is so retirement home.

The damn questions have already been relayed according to Duperjay.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

IamMurph said:


> Is that list of required questions done yet. I don't want two or three. I want to make sure when he answers he can be done in one fell swoop.


we'll do our best to follow your precise instructions, sire !!!!

honest ... we will, we will !!!!!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

lycan said:


> we'll do our best to follow your precise instructions, sire !!!!
> 
> honest ... we will, we will !!!!!


Post deleted. Your resume's not up to snuff.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

BoostedNihilist said:


> Anal fisting can cause severe injuries to the receptive participant, who may require hospitalization and surgery;[9] in the absence of treatment it has also been known to cause death.[10]


"Death by fisting."

Sounds like a good name for a punk band.


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

IamMurph said:


> Personal attacks are so third grade.


Yeah, and masked auto logout attempts are the mark of a rhodes scholar.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

superjay said:


> I came here to defend Ultra, as i know it is a good sub.





superjay said:


> probably shouldn't state as fact that which cannot be proven


Oh, sweet irony.


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

cajunner said:


> I am tactfully inquiring about the nature of your relationship to Matt, to better understand how it is that a Chinese Audio Company man, is able to walk over an American Made product to an American manufacturing facility, and have his woofer tested?
> 
> You did say that you were unemployed, so therefore absolved of any obligation in a fiscal sense as to obtaining Klippel data without the compensation, due to being contracted to a company but if you can do it, I'd like to know what it takes for everyone else to do it?
> 
> ...


This is the first I have heard of ID doing any testing outside of the ones WE ALL know about.

To date, the only time there was a charge was when Gary was doing the testing. There was only one person/company that wanted testing done (I think to better improve his subwoofer!?!? - Don't remember specifically, perhaps Gary remembers though).

The idea that possible testing is being done without my knowledge or consent is a bit concerning to me, and something I will have to discuss with ID in private. 
As far as some of the other consipricy theories I have read in this forum.. WOW.. some people are reading way too much in to this. 

ANT


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

IamMurph said:


> http://www.ultrawiki.com


Can IamMurph be banned for his silly auto-logout stunt?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

DIYMA said:


> WOW.. some people are reading way too much in to this.
> 
> ANT


no doubt


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

95Maxima said:


> Can IamMurph be banned for his silly auto-logout stunt?


Fisting is allowed and redirects that make you log back in are a crime.


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

Is it possible to delete 550 of the 600 or so posts (including my own) that do absolutely nothing to help this post?


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

why? A little embarrassed about some of the things you and your boys have said?


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

IamMurph said:


> Fisting is allowed and redirects that make you log back in are a crime.


Nobody here said you can't spend your own time however you want.
Of course it's allowed.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

I think in the interests of full disclosure none of this thread should be deleted.


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

BoostedNihilist said:


> why? A little embarrassed about some of the things you and your boys have said?


No not really. Jay can be an ******* all on his own.

I am surprised at how many fanboys are here. I have been on forums for 15 years. It's the same story. One person starts a fire and all his followers blow.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

except of course ultra fanboys... theyre the exception to the rule right?

its funny how some fanboys like to blow on the wrong fire..

I bet you think all the people that dislike the actions of the nazis are just pro jewish fanboys right? I mean, there must have been one person who disagreed with hitler and everybody else is just a mindless follower...

dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

IamMurph said:


> No not really. Jay can be an ******* all on his own.
> 
> I am surprised at how many fanboys are here. I have been on forums for 15 years. It's the same story. One person starts a fire and all his followers blow.


beautiful.

Those defending *objective science* ... as opposed to biased, subjective, profit-motivated, buddy-buddy "belief systems" ... are called "fanboys".

That about sums it up, alright !!

*That about sums it up !!*


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

For the record I had no issues with the Kipple results. 

I love how my car sounds. Is there anything else that matters to me?

There is far more people in this tread spewing evil then there is people who actually want answers. Serious questions deserve serious answers.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

IamMurph said:


> I am surprised at how many fanboys are here. I have been on forums for 15 years. It's the same story. One person starts a fire and all his followers blow.





superjay said:


> It's not like the anti-fanboy sentiment we have going on here with everyone else.


If you two are gonna be on the same team at least get your game plan together. Of course, you've contradicted your individual selves enough, also.


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

I love how everyone gets riled up when you call them a fanboy or a hack.


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

IamMurph said:


> I have been on forums for 15 years.


Ever contributed anything worthwhile?


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

IamMurph said:


> For the record I had no issues with the Kipple results.
> 
> I love how my car sounds. Is there anything else that matters to me?


apparently not.

Some us still care to _learn_. Some of us still care to _teach_. Some us look at this forum as a place where science & logic, matter more than advertising & profit.

*These things* matter, to some of us.


> There is far more people in this tread spewing evil then there is people who actually want answers. Serious questions deserve serious answers.


You and _your_ fanboys are in way, WAY over your (collective) heads here. Run along now, little boy. Nothing more for you to see ... or learn ... around here.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

Its amazing how riled up fanboys get when their investment is totally ****canned by science.


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## 95Maxima (Sep 19, 2010)

IamMurph said:


> I love how everyone gets riled up when you call them a fanboy or a hack.


Just to be clear here. Fanboys of what exactly? And who's the hack?


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

but... ultra has electrolytes


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

95Maxima said:


> Ever contributed anything worthwhile?


I'll give you a sample since you asked. Security is my specialty. When I'm not being a douche I helped write part of the MECP Masters Guide.

Remote Start Document <---- Link to pdf with Pictures

This is a step by step document I put together for training new installers on remote start security systems. This is only one way of doing things. In no way do I think my way is the best. It's just what I have found to work for me.

For the DIY installer make sure you have the time to do the job correctly. Take a weekend with nothing to do but work on your car. Once you start do not stop halfway and expect to drive your car. Also don't do part of the job and leave the rest for later. Do it right the first time and only do it once.

Only use a Digital Multimeter to test wires. Test lights are not safe in todays vehicles.

Time to start the installation
Every installer has his or her own method of installation. The key to saving time is following the
same plan every time. Whatever method you choose, stick to it every time. This will help your consistency and help you work fasted.

1. Unpack all boxes and make sure you have everything needed for the installation.
2. Have the tech sheet for the vehicle.
3. Locate and test all wires.
4. Locate siren and hood pin-mounting locations.
5. Check for locations to hide the brain and any modules.
6. Bench prep
a. Identify wires needed for the installation.
b. Determine where each wire will be connected in the vehicle.
c. Solder and tape connections and tape up all wires.
7. Install hood pin, wire tachometer and mount siren.
8. Run wires into vehicle.
9. Mount brain and run wires to proper locations.
10. Installation
a. Ground the system.
b. Connect hood pin, siren and tachometer.
c. Connect the door trigger, lights, and door locks and trunk pin.
d. Connect brake wire and ignition connections.
e. Mount LED, valet and toggle switches.
f. Install the shock sensor.
g. Power up the system and set the tachometer.
h. Test the remote start system (Hood pin, brake, and over rev shutdown).
i. Set the shock sensor and test the doors, hood, trunk and other options.
j. Reassemble the vehicle.
11. Vacuum the vehicle and enjoy.


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## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

guys it's been fun  but i really have contributed all i can. I hope this thread _does_ stand, intact ... obviously it's been a trainwreck, but one that might still provide some degree of illumination to future readers. hey a guy can hope, right?

but now i gotta take my own advice, and run along too.

i'm out!


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

lmfao.. 

no.. check whether your vehicle needs a transponder bypass?
no... check to ensure proper wires are indentified with multimeter?
no... do not mess with the big yellow harness?
no... read and fully understand the installation/programming manual?

I mean.. its an OK start but there is a LOT of relevant information missing.. I truly hope this didn't make it into the master study guide.

Since when do new installers take the master test... when I was mecp certified (back when it was still first class) the master took three years verified industry experience.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

IamMurph said:


> I'll give you a sample since you asked. Security is my specialty. When I'm not being a douche I helped write part of the MECP Masters Guide.
> 
> Remote Start Document <---- Link to pdf with Pictures
> 
> ...


WOW, maybe you and your boys aren't just trolls after all......nah, still trolls!


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

Me too, Im out of this circle jerk before I end up eating the soggy bread


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## IamMurph (Jan 12, 2009)

BoostedNihilist said:


> lmfao..
> 
> no.. check whether your vehicle needs a transponder bypass?
> no... check to ensure proper wires are indentified with multimeter?
> ...


I made this for the beginners. Let me know what you think is missing and I can update it and give you credit. I spent years helping people on forums before getting burned out from a dieing industry and handing out if off topic all the time. I love 12v but it's not what it used to be.

You do still need three years verified experience and current advanced certification before you can take master.

My part of the book was advanced troubleshooting.


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