# 2007 Honda Accord Build



## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Just thought I would share this, I had it completed last December, will add more pics as I find them.

2007 Honda Accord Sedan
Pioneer DEH-P5100UB
Audison BitOne
Audison LRx 5.1k
Arc Audio Black 6.2
Arc Audio Black12 ~1.1 sealed
Doors sealed with Hushmat and treated with RAAMaudio Ensolite
Trunk deadened with a combination of Hushmat and Stinger
Big 3 in engine
Diehard Platinum battery

The Black 6.2 midwoofer compared to stock:


Water proofing:


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Doors:












Easy access compartments:


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Doors continued...

Molex in driver side rubber grommet blocking path for new speaker wire:




New hole:








Finished Hushmat, little over 16 sq ft per door:


Finished Ensolite:


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## jcstites (Aug 6, 2009)

Looks good. I'll probably have to do the same thing on the drivers side door in my 03 accord.


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## WhereAmEye? (Jun 17, 2013)

Lovin' how you put in the speaker wire (driver side). I just drilled a hole in the white harness connector thing. How big is your wire?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

jcstites said:


> Looks good. I'll probably have to do the same thing on the drivers side door in my 03 accord.





WhereAmEye? said:


> Lovin' how you put in the speaker wire (driver side). I just drilled a hole in the white harness connector thing. How big is your wire?


All credit for this build goes to my installer. He's been my installer for about 3 years now and he's a great guy. I've learned a bunch from him and plan to have my own go at installation at some point. I'm not sure how big the wire is, but he thought about drilling a hole in the harness thing, he had done it before, but chose not to this time.

Here are some more pics, I really need to get the rest of them on here.

Honda Accord harness kit and Pioneer DEH-P5100UB installed




Hole drilled in large center console for iPod USB cable and BitOne console from headunit


iPod in small center console compartment. The iPod cable is loosening at the end, replacement from monoprice is in the mail. Lifetime warranty


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

More pics...

Engine power upgrades:








Tweeters, was a quick install, my installer wants to wrap them and make them look nicer, but I'm in no hurry. I'd rather put that money into another sub or dif amps


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

Hoptologist said:


> Tweeters, was a quick install, my installer wants to wrap them and make them look nicer, but I'm in no hurry. I'd rather put that money into another sub or dif amps


Looking very good so far. I notice you have an Audison Lrx 5.1k as I do. I am curious by this statement - especially the last bit. Are you happy with the Audison or really not happy with it or just thinking about trying something else? I have read that the Black 12 is very similar to my Morel Ultimo in alot of respects so I am curious if you think you getting what you need from your amp. I think about getting a 2nd sub from time to time too but 1. can't afford one being I would need another much more powerful amp and then would actually need 2 amps as I would need one to do my midrange and tweets too.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

james2266 said:


> Looking very good so far. I notice you have an Audison Lrx 5.1k as I do. I am curious by this statement - especially the last bit. Are you happy with the Audison or really not happy with it or just thinking about trying something else? I have read that the Black 12 is very similar to my Morel Ultimo in alot of respects so I am curious if you think you getting what you need from your amp. I think about getting a 2nd sub from time to time too but 1. can't afford one being I would need another much more powerful amp and then would actually need 2 amps as I would need one to do my midrange and tweets too.


I'm happy with the LRx 5.1k, it's extremely versatile and convenient, and sounds great. The only con I can see it having is that it gets real hot. The reason I would upgrade is just to try something different. I've had the LRx 5.1k for almost 3 years now, and I'd really like to try an Arc SE amp, and maybe a KS2500.1 or KS1200.1.

It's been a while since I've read about the Ultimo, but I would like to hear one one day. The next thing I'm going to do is actually go back to my IDMAX for a while. I've had the Black12 for 9 months now, and I'd like to mix it up again. The Black12 has amazing output from 20-40hz for a single 12 sealed, maybe more than the IDMAX, but I'd like more output from 40-70hz, and the IDMAX has that. I'd ideally like to have 2 Black12's one day, or maybe 2 IDMAX12's, but I think I'd have to upgrade my alternator, as well as get a more powerful amp, and that's money I don't have right now too 

I'll post the other pics of amp/sub in a couple hours.


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

Hoptologist said:


> I'm happy with the LRx 5.1k, it's extremely versatile and convenient, and sounds great. The only con I can see it having is that it gets real hot. The reason I would upgrade is just to try something different. I've had the LRx 5.1k for almost 3 years now, and I'd really like to try an Arc SE amp, and maybe a KS2500.1 or KS1200.1.
> 
> It's been a while since I've read about the Ultimo, but I would like to hear one one day. The next thing I'm going to do is actually go back to my IDMAX for a while. I've had the Black12 for 9 months now, and I'd like to mix it up again. The Black12 has amazing output from 20-40hz for a single 12 sealed, maybe more than the IDMAX, but I'd like more output from 40-70hz, and the IDMAX has that. I'd ideally like to have 2 Black12's one day, or maybe 2 IDMAX12's, but I think I'd have to upgrade my alternator, as well as get a more powerful amp, and that's money I don't have right now too
> 
> I'll post the other pics of amp/sub in a couple hours.


Its always good to hear opinions on this amp from someone that has first hand experience. Also good to hear your opinions on the various subs you've run. I have only ever had 3 diff. subs and only one that was a 12 (my current Ultimo). I have tried as best I can to hear a few others around here but it is so difficult as car audio is pretty much dead around here; especially the sq variety. I have recently gotten a quick listen to a JBL GTI12 mkii in a slightly water damaged ported box that the owner had no real clue about the specs of. It was actually pretty impressive. If I had a little extra dough, I might have grabbed it just for the hell of it but he wanted $300 for it still. The IDMax 12 is right at the top of my list of subs I want to hear. Never had the luxury. The one that just sold on here for $200 was really tempting but I am trying to actually get what I have in and maximized before going after any new equipment. 

Are you running a line driver by chance on your 5.1k? I have always found that I have to really crank the gains especially on the sub channel to get any sizeable output from it. I also found the B channels lacking for midbass production. I am now using a Mosconi One 120.4 bridged for that (340 watts rms potentially). I would actually love to replace the 5.1k with a Mosconi AS300 and a 100.4 maybe? Don't have a couple grand to spend on that tho. I have also looked at that Arc KS2500.1 as a sub solution. I like that one alot as it can run 2 Ultimo's potentially at 1 ohm if I chose. Have also looked at Genesis, Audiosystem xion, Sinfoni and many others as possible upgrades. As these are all a large chunk of change and I have no experience with any of them, I want to hear what they have to offer before I go doing anything. I need some ears on experience which is tough to land around here. I guess I am still learning but going into this one a little more level headed this time. I want to maximize what I have first and really hope I get exactly what I want even if deep down I don't think I will get what I crave with what I have.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

james2266 said:


> Its always good to hear opinions on this amp from someone that has first hand experience. Also good to hear your opinions on the various subs you've run. I have only ever had 3 diff. subs and only one that was a 12 (my current Ultimo). I have tried as best I can to hear a few others around here but it is so difficult as car audio is pretty much dead around here; especially the sq variety. I have recently gotten a quick listen to a JBL GTI12 mkii in a slightly water damaged ported box that the owner had no real clue about the specs of. It was actually pretty impressive. If I had a little extra dough, I might have grabbed it just for the hell of it but he wanted $300 for it still. The IDMax 12 is right at the top of my list of subs I want to hear. Never had the luxury. The one that just sold on here for $200 was really tempting but I am trying to actually get what I have in and maximized before going after any new equipment.
> 
> Are you running a line driver by chance on your 5.1k? I have always found that I have to really crank the gains especially on the sub channel to get any sizeable output from it. I also found the B channels lacking for midbass production. I am now using a Mosconi One 120.4 bridged for that (340 watts rms potentially). I would actually love to replace the 5.1k with a Mosconi AS300 and a 100.4 maybe? Don't have a couple grand to spend on that tho. I have also looked at that Arc KS2500.1 as a sub solution. I like that one alot as it can run 2 Ultimo's potentially at 1 ohm if I chose. Have also looked at Genesis, Audiosystem xion, Sinfoni and many others as possible upgrades. As these are all a large chunk of change and I have no experience with any of them, I want to hear what they have to offer before I go doing anything. I need some ears on experience which is tough to land around here. I guess I am still learning but going into this one a little more level headed this time. I want to maximize what I have first and really hope I get exactly what I want even if deep down I don't think I will get what I crave with what I have.


I've only had 3 different subs as well: JL W1v2, IDMAX, and then Black. Sealed, sealed and ported, and sealed. All 12". I've heard great things about that JBL, I've always wanted to hear one of those, a JL W6, Hertz HX300, and DD 2512. I almost bought that $200 IDMAX too lol, it was a great deal.

No line driver. My gains are all moderately set, never had any issue with output. My Arc Black 6" mids give really nice midbass for a 6", more than the Hertz MLK 165 I had previously, although in the future I'd love to get 7" or 8" mids hehe. Before the LRx, I had a Zapco 360.4 bridged for the Hertz MLK and going active with them on the Audison really opened them up even more. The Black 6.2 component set, though, I'd say is more full sounding and dynamic, but slightly not as smooth, compared to the Hertz. In the future I want to try either Morel or Dynaudio comps, and maybe DLS.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

More pics...


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

Pretty stealthy looking install outside of the subbox, nothing is really visible. I hope you have that box bolted right down to the car frame however. If you don't, one good box slide and you could have serious issues. I am sure you thought of that already. 

Funny, I had the ML165 set as my first venture into true sq as well. I came across a deal on a set of Morel mt22 tweeters and it was like my high end clarity was 100x better instantly and that is one of their lower line tweeters! I have since moved up to Scanspeak D3004 tweeter which is very similar to the Morel but with more hi extension - a little ah... airier? In my battle to get solid midbass/subbass in my last vehicle I grabbed a set of Morel mw265 8 inch home drivers and had them installed. There was a gigantic difference in midbass punch and clarity too. I was hearing things I had never heard before in songs especially subtle bass electric variations. Truly worth the effort to get larger midbasses in your doors. Floor would be even better. I got to hear that in Florida (thanks Steve!) and it was very impressive. Much better imaging and no rattles! 

As for subs, I had a Hertz ML2500 before my Ultimo and it was a nice addition although it never seemed to have much output. I think it does alot better in the upper ranges than the lower and that vehicle had a drop out in the upper sub frequencies so I think that was the major contributor to that. Funny you mention that JBL sub, I just checked and it is still for sale. Man, if I only had the money to spend. Would be an easy fix on the box with all of the glassing stuff I have here and it would make an awesome spare. I probably would of offered him something for it if it was not a truck box. the box would have to fire up and it would take up more real estate than I am willing to give. If it was an IDMax, I probably would have grabbed it if I liked its sound. I would love the extra 6 db or so of sensitivity for one and the fact it is about 3 inches less deep. If only I could here one. Maybe on my return to Florida next March for SBN. Really looking forward to that and I really hope I can cross off alot of these 'must listen' items off my list then.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Yeah, that box is bolted down with a couple L brackets, you can kind of see it in the last pic.

Yeah I'm not into extensive eye catching installs. I mean, it would be nice, but I'd rather spend that extra money on parts instead. The BitOne has had the greatest difference on my sound, and I don't think I could ever go without a sound processor now. TA is awesome!

This talk is making me want to really try some other gear out lol. I'm going to need to start saving again, I'll probably do new amps first (hopefully this year), and then new components (hopefully next year).


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Since my last post, I've sold my Black12 v1 and gone back to my IDMAX for the time being. The plan for the future is either 2 Black12 v2 or 1 Illusion Audio C12 XL (not sure I could swing 2). 

I've gone from 1 JL Audio 12 W1v2 sealed, to 1 IDMAX12 sealed, to 1 IDMAX12 ported, to 1 Arc Black12 sealed, to 1 IDMAX12 sealed again. I've always had single sub setups, and I love trying out different subs and different boxes, but I think I'm just spinning my wheels until I switch to a dual sub setup (to really get me the effect I'm ultimately wanting).

I haven't taken many new pics, no point really, but here is my new sealed box I'm using for my IDMAX, came out real good, props to my installer for that, didn't want to spend extra on carpeting since it is just a temporary thing, and was going for as cheap as possible 



















He also just got some new tuning equipment, going from Termlab to TrueRTA along with a new mic and a couple other new toys. He only got a chance to mess around with some tuning/eq for an hour or 2, but the changes he made have made a nice improvement in my overall sound. He had to drop a couple frequencies substantially that were showing as huge peeks, specifically 1.2khz and 800hz I believe. Everything sounds much more transparent and clear, and I'm excited for him to do even more next time 

For the future, I'll be getting new amps as well. The Audison LRx 5.1k has served me super well, but I want more headroom, and my only gripe with it is that it gets super freaken hot, even with no input RCA's and no speakers connected. Sometimes the red light comes on and I've had it go into protect a few times, but then I will make the trip from Fresno to Disneyland or Fresno to Santa Rosa, in the summertime, 'bumping' pretty loud the entire time, and it will be fine, lol. I've talked to Audison and Elettromedia and they offered to look at it/repair anything if necessary/clean it/etc for $125, but I don't think it's worth it. If I was going to keep it for another couple years, then I would, but I'm looking to get new amps hopefully within a month or so. Just an FYI to whoever the future owner of this amp will be, lol.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Update

It was about that time to change things up a bit. It had been about a year and 2 months since my last significant changes, so I was overdue by at least a couple months. My cars been at my installers for a bit now and this is where we’re at.

New sub stage
(2) Arc Audio Black 12 v2 

New amp stage
Arc Audio KS 300.2
Arc Audio KS 300.4
Arc Audio KS 2500.1

The Blacks will be getting about 1.1cuft of space each in a sealed box, and they will have 2500rms total to play around with and keep them company. Everything is pretty temporary right now because we wanted to see how they sound firing into the cabin sealed off from the trunk, as well as rear firing. We’re going to see how they sound firing into the cabin first, so things will be sealed off as best they can without being permanent. 

I wanted to keep my spare tire, so an amp rack was made that fits nicely on the back of the box. 

The Black 1.0 will be hooked up to 2 channels of the 300.4 and the 6.0 on the 300.2. The plan is to hopefully go to a 3-way set near the end of this year, either Focal Flax, Illusion Carbons (once the 3” comes out, and I’d probably do 8” in the doors), or maybe Gladen. I just don’t see the massive Arc Black 4.0 fitting in, and I don’t really want to do kicks. Too bad they don’t have a 3.0, because the Blacks sound great.

I had 37 sq ft pack of RAAMmat BXT II, so he used it to deaden the entire trunk (had major road noise back there), and then he used Hushmat on the top deck lid. 

I’ve always had major buzzing/resonance in my doors during certain songs, even though they are super deadened (Hushmat inside/outside, and Ensolite over that on the outside). I’ve read others on here giving up on their Accord doors because they are just ridiculous with resonance, but only certain songs. When it happens, if I just press on the actual window, or crack the window a tad, it goes away. So to try and improve it, Focal Blackhole Tiles will be added inside the doors around the back of the speakers, and the door cards will be mass loaded with Hushmat. 

So it’s not finished yet, but here are some pictures so far


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

Looking great so far man! Nice job on deadening the trunk too. I am also glad (or is that sad) to see that I am not the only one fighting door resonances even after some serious deadening. Funny how we are both considering the same solution now - Focal Black Hole tiles.

Oh, and my vote is to turn that box around. It will look so much better not seeing all the wiring and the amps as you crack open the trunk; especially if this is your daily driver. I guess another solution could be a beaty panel on the back of the box covering over the amps too.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Very interested in hearing how the subs sound firing into the cabin. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks guys. If I love the way it sounds firing forward, I'll probably have the amp rack carpeted or painted, but I actually really dig seeing the amps and wires like that, has a very industrial look to it. It will also look a bit cleaner when everything is hooked up and you won't be able to see all the wires that are currently laying around the trunk floor. I'm all about placing the most importance on how it sounds, and the least importance on appearance, and my wallet sort of thanks me for that.


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## UNFORGIVEN (Sep 25, 2010)

I have a 7th Gen accord also (2006) 
nice to see a build log with so many familiar things 

I was running the Arc KS Amps for awhile myself good choice on those.
p.s. Did you manage to fit the Arc mid in the door with a single 3/4" mdf baffle? I'm not sure the exact mounting depth we have to work with


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

I like it. interested to see how you like the new changes.

let us know if the black hole tiles work well....where did you purchase them? thanks!


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## jpeezy (Feb 5, 2012)

You need to do a pull from the box to the surrounding sheet metal. you take polyester fleece(very stretchy,smooth side out) and tack it to edge of box(i use an upholstery stapler for this,and hobby store super glue and acclerator for the sheet metal)super glue the fleece to the sheet metal)some poeple try to use spray adhesive, it will get reactivated by resin and fall apart,so dont use spray adhesive(you can get creative and do shapes too) but tack it to the edge of the box all around perimeter of box ,leave a couple feet of slack outside the edge of the box, now carefully(so it looks nice) stretch fleece out to surrounding sheet metal around box (beware of latches and seat belts and child car seat hooks),once you've done all around you should have a semi taught border around box that extends out to sheet metal, now take polyester resin and some brushes(mix hardener cool or light (less hardener so it doesnt set up as fast)and apply resin to fleece(until it is soaked through,you be able to tell when the surface of the fleece loses its bumpy texture and gets smoother),do this all around(obviously take precautions front and back of area not to get excess resin on anything other than your pull.when you've coated the whole surface geta fan and let it run for awhile and let it cure.* dont use a heat gun to speed up reaction,you'll either burn a hole through fleece with gun or the resin will get too hot to quickly,you'll get less warpage if you let it dry naturally.when its dry you can cover it in whatever you want with the appropiate finishing(sanding, it gets messy real quick if you sand in car!) of course.good luck and thanks for sharing.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

UNFORGIVEN said:


> I have a 7th Gen accord also (2006)
> nice to see a build log with so many familiar things
> 
> I was running the Arc KS Amps for awhile myself good choice on those.
> p.s. Did you manage to fit the Arc mid in the door with a single 3/4" mdf baffle? I'm not sure the exact mounting depth we have to work with


It's been a while now so I'm not 100% on this, but I believe it uses a single 3/4" mdf, wrapped in Hushmat, plus a ring of foam. I think without the ring of foam, it just couldn't clear the window when rolled down.



casey said:


> I like it. interested to see how you like the new changes.
> 
> let us know if the black hole tiles work well....where did you purchase them? thanks!


I definitely will. I have a playlist of songs that caused the resonance, but one song in particular won first place for worst resonance, so that will be the true test. My installer ordered them, he deals for Orca/Arc/DD/HAT.



jpeezy said:


> You need to do a pull from the box to the surrounding sheet metal. you take polyester fleece(very stretchy,smooth side out) and tack it to edge of box(i use an upholstery stapler for this,and hobby store super glue and acclerator for the sheet metal)super glue the fleece to the sheet metal)some poeple try to use spray adhesive, it will get reactivated by resin and fall apart,so dont use spray adhesive(you can get creative and do shapes too) but tack it to the edge of the box all around perimeter of box ,leave a couple feet of slack outside the edge of the box, now carefully(so it looks nice) stretch fleece out to surrounding sheet metal around box (beware of latches and seat belts and child car seat hooks),once you've done all around you should have a semi taught border around box that extends out to sheet metal, now take polyester resin and some brushes(mix hardener cool or light (less hardener so it doesnt set up as fast)and apply resin to fleece(until it is soaked through,you be able to tell when the surface of the fleece loses its bumpy texture and gets smoother),do this all around(obviously take precautions front and back of area not to get excess resin on anything other than your pull.when you've coated the whole surface geta fan and let it run for awhile and let it cure.* dont use a heat gun to speed up reaction,you'll either burn a hole through fleece with gun or the resin will get too hot to quickly,you'll get less warpage if you let it dry naturally.when its dry you can cover it in whatever you want with the appropiate finishing(sanding, it gets messy real quick if you sand in car!) of course.good luck and thanks for sharing.


Thank you for your insight. I'm a visual learner, but after reading this a few times and having it go above my head, I think I get it, so let's see. Staple fleece around the box, stretch it out and glue it to the sheetmetal, got that, and then applying resin to the fleece is what will essentially create the 'seal' between the box and the trunk after it hardens. I think for now though, since this is just very temporary, we will take the quick and cheap way of stuffing stuff between the space around the box to fill in the gaps, and maybe a layer of deadener between the top of the box where it meets the metal. I'll try and get more pics soon.


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## UNFORGIVEN (Sep 25, 2010)

I bought the same exact battery recently. Glad to see it will fit! 
I know i'll have to remove the plastic factory battery case but did you modify anthing else? Like the mount that holds it into place

How does your voltage hold up compared to the puny stock battery. I can play my system for approx 3-5 mins with the battery off and then it dies


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

UNFORGIVEN said:


> I bought the same exact battery recently. Glad to see it will fit!
> I know i'll have to remove the plastic factory battery case but did you modify anthing else? Like the mount that holds it into place
> 
> How does your voltage hold up compared to the puny stock battery. I can play my system for approx 3-5 mins with the battery off and then it dies


Haha, I didn't have to modify anything, all I did was rotate the connector 180 deg that screws down on top, because the the lip under it wasn't sitting flush with the new battery.

I actually never measured the voltage, but with the Audison LRx 5.1k, I never had any problems playing it with the car off, although I hardly ever do that. I'll see how it performs with the new amps once everything is connected.


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

what song gives you the issue? interested to play it in my civic


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

casey said:


> what song gives you the issue? interested to play it in my civic


Many songs, but the worst so far has been Fredrik - Milo. I have put the first 14 seconds of that song on repeat and have nearly spent hours trying to isolate the issue. Can't wait to see what effect the Blackhole tiles have. In fact, this resonance is one of the reasons why I really want to go to a 3-way set and relieve the driver of the 300-3k hz area, which is where I believe the issues reside.


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## DBlevel (Oct 6, 2006)

Sub'd

Not sure how I've continuously missed this! Fellow 7th gen owner here as well. 

I like how the doors were done, very detailed and still able to access the door interior.


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## perfecxionx (Sep 4, 2009)

i have an 07 accord and have always had the same door buzzing issue. doors are fully deadened and theres a ton of foam/weatherstripping that has helped but never completely gotten rid of it. i used to have peerless sls in the doors and the rattling at high volumes was unbearable. im interested to see if you manage to fix it


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Mine is a high frequency buzzing right around the door lock plunger (not sure if that's what it's called). I wonder if it's the rod or the actual plunger that's buzzing against the tube. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Yeah it's definitely a high pitch resonance, so annoying! If you guys push on the window right above the door does it stop? Sometimes if I press hard on the door handle area it goes away, but really, all I have to do is press on the window with 2 fingers and viola. Blackhole tile is being done today and some mass loading of deadener on back of door card, thinking tomorrow or Friday we'll be able to do some listening!

I've always considered bringing the midbass speakers out further by cutting the factory grill out and covering it over with speaker clothe like I've seen many people on here do.


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## GavGT (Sep 5, 2011)

Howdy, nicely executed install! I'm always on the lookout for other 7th gen owners to see what they have done with the car. I myself have the tourer version. I don't same to suffer with the same buzzing of the doors, but that may be because they have been extensively modified to accept up to a 8.5" midbass and the door panel rebuilt on top. They are also very dead. 

I look forward to updates.

Gav


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks!

Here's the back of the door card deadened, sorry it's kind of blurry. Each door will also have 9 or so Blackhole Tiles behind the speaker area. So fully deadened inside and out with Hushmat, Blackhole Tiles placed on top of the Hushmat inside the door, RAAMmat Ensolite on top of the Hushmat outside of the door, and Hushmat on the back of the door card. If this doesn't get rid of the resonance, nothing will lol. Hoping to do some listening tomorrow.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

A few more pics of how things currently are.

Everything almost connected


















Cheap way to get a feel for the setup, 3 hand towels on the right, and a hand towel and a bath towel on the left to create a seal. 


















And then I drove 4 hours to Santa Rosa and 4 hours back, listening non stop. Impressions to follow!


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

As soon as I got to Heretic Brewing in Fairfield, I popped the trunk and felt the amps. The sub amp was barely warm and the other 2 amps were cool to the touch. Sweet!

First, the resonance issue in my doors. The Blackhole tile has SIGNIFICANTLY helped. No more awful resonance on the right door with that Fredrick song, left side still has some. I wish I took a video of how bad it was before, crazy. There is still some resonance, it will never be 100% gone, but it sure has improved 100% from how it was. Sweet!

The front speakers. I don’t know if it is the extra power on the new amps, the Blackhole tile, or what, but the two-seat non-TA preset sounds better than it has ever sounded. In fact, sometimes I felt like TA was on. Awesome imaging, clarity, energy, and dynamics. Sweet!

The subs. Sounds very quick, clean, transparent, and nice overall, but it’s just not loud enough for me. If I was a strictly SQ guy, I would leave it the way it is, but I love bass, and forward facing just isn’t giving me that oomph, that immersive, tactile experience. As it is, the 2 Black 12’s forward facing don’t get quite as deep or loud as my 1 Black 12 got when I had it last year rear facing. I’m craving that extra cabin gain, transfer function from being in the trunk. This setup was meant to be temporary from the get-go, to feel out the forward facing placement, and I’m glad it was, because I will be going rear-facing very soon. 

So, next on the list is to get the box carpeted, and figure out where the hell all those amps and processor will go. Spare tire well is a no. They won’t all fit on the back of the box (the amp rack is much bigger than the back of the box and won’t fit behind the backseats). I’ll probably have to have them split up and put a couple on the back of the box, and the other 2 on one side of the trunk, as stealth looking as possible. And then some tuning/eq, and that should be it, for now…

I am super glad to say, that with ~100rms x 2 on the tweeters, ~200rms x 2 on the midbass, and ~2500rms on the subs, my electrical system is performing like a champ. With my stock 90amp alternator and DieHard Platinum starter battery, I’ve gotten no dimming, or any lessoning of dynamics over time, whatsoever. I was worried I would have to throw down some extra money on an additional battery or H.O. alternator, and at the very least, I was prepared to get some HID lights in anticipation of mine dimming, so I’m relieved to see that I don’t need to do any of that. That’s all for now!


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Good progress and review! Glad you like Bass too! Looking forward to your next review on the substage.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

The build continues  Since I wasn’t completely satisfied with the bass output forward facing, I’m flipping the box around. This setup will be pretty permanent, so I’m having the box carpeted and all the amps relocated, which will create a more pleasing and stealth appearance. 

Space is super tight, so an L-shaped amp rack was built to house the amps, and this board will be fastened to a series of small spacer boards attached to the top area of the trunk. The sub box will then be fastened to the back of the amp rack. The box had to be moved closer to the rear of the car to fit the amps, but still gives me just enough clearance to my spare tire if needed. The rear deck was foamed over and then everything was test fitted. That’s where the current state of the build lies. Next is mounting and connecting everything, and having Robert re-eq/tune 

The goods

















The spacers attached to the trunk. The shape of this area isn't flat all the way across, so a wedge was made for extra support

















Everything was test fitted, first the amp rack, then the box

























Box and amp rack carpeted, and amps arranged

















Everything was then test fitted one last time


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

That's sweet! That box is going to be super heavy after everything is mounted to it. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

looking good!


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## rdubbs (Sep 26, 2012)

Thats a really great idea for the amp rack actually  Looking great!


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Lookin' good. 

Have you tried isolating the resonance in the doors without the inner panels in place? Your description makes me wonder if the noise is coming from the mechanical components in the window assembly or a loose piece of linkage in the doorlocks.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks guys, I'm real excited to hear it, especially the difference in bass.

Chaos - I want to say that we tested it without the door cards on a while back, but now I'm second guessing myself, can't remember for sure. I've been dealing with this issue for so long, it's pretty much turned into a cycle of long bouts of defeat, followed by short bouts of ambitious new ideas, followed again by long bouts of defeat. All I know is that (windows cracked the tiniest bit) or (pressure applied to the window when all the way up) = no resonance.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Are you going to be able to swing by for this?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-22-14-2nd-show-norcal-mobilewarz-series.html


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I'll be headed to the above mentioned event, I know we pm'd about the doors. I'll check it out in person while up there if you can make it.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

papasin said:


> Are you going to be able to swing by for this?
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-22-14-2nd-show-norcal-mobilewarz-series.html





TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'll be headed to the above mentioned event, I know we pm'd about the doors. I'll check it out in person while up there if you can make it.


Wow it's this Saturday already, this month is flying by. I'll for sure be there for part of the day at least, how late are you guys planning to stay?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I had what sounds like the same resonance as you with my 2004 Acura TL. I found that mine was coming from where the window rubber meets the window. I tried to put a layer of deadening and some foam in the upper curved part of the door panel itself that seats to that spot (because if I cracked my window or pushed on that spot, it would help a lot). It did create some pressure and help some, but I couldn't ever get it to go away fully.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Niebur3 said:


> I had what sounds like the same resonance as you with my 2004 Acura TL. I found that mine was coming from where the window rubber meets the window. I tried to put a layer of deadening and some foam in the upper curved part of the door panel itself that seats to that spot (because if I cracked my window or pushed on that spot, it would help a lot). It did create some pressure and help some, but I couldn't ever get it to go away fully.


Do you know which freq range was giving you the most trouble? Mine is pretty much around 350hz, give or take +/- 100hz, well, at least that was the trouble area for a few songs I tested. That's why I'd love to go 3-way, otherwise I think I should just come to accept that it will never go away. 

Back when I got a quote to get my windows tinted, they mentioned that if I didn't have velvet wrap to protect the window, that they would need to install some. I was wondering if that velvet wrap would give me any improvement on the resonance, because it seems to be stemming from the window like yours did.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

I'm reserving my final opinion until I get everything rta'd/re-tuned/eq'd, but I guess I should post some kind of update. 

Flipping the box around made a HUGE difference in output. I now have way more bass potential than I would ever need; however, I'm not all smiles or 110% satisfied, at least not yet . Granted, I've had some real fun turning the subs up near full-tilt for bits here and there and the experience is something I've never had in my own ride before, but I'm still a ways away from achieving the sonic nirvana that I seek.

Compared to when the subs were forward facing, the bass seems a lot more punchy, but it's not anywhere near as smooth sounding as it was, and that is something I really miss. I'm hoping it's partly because I'm hearing rattles which could be masking the sound a bit, and partly because I still need to re-eq the sub. There is definitely a lot of localization coming from the trunk now, which takes away from the overall experience, and I'm hoping rattle-hunting and eq/tuning will get rid of that too. One weird thing is that my lights are now dimming a LOT more rear firing than they were forward firing, not really sure why that is...

Compared to when I was running just 1 Black 12" v1, I think that setup was still more impressive sounding overall. I didn't have localization, the bass sounded very smooth, and for some reason, that setup seemed to give me the illusion that the bass extended deeper, which doesn't make sense to me. I don't know if it was the change from the v1 to the v2, the rattles that I currently have, or the fact that other frequencies are MUCH louder now, giving me the false impression that the very low frequencies aren't as loud. I'm hoping when I rta my system it will shed light on how flat my sub-bass section currently is, maybe I need to raise the bottom end and lower the mid and top end, not sure.

I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I would be lying if when I first listened to the system as it is right now, that I didn't think to myself 'damn, I probably should have just added another Black v1 back when I had the other one, instead of losing money selling it and then shelling out way more money buying 2 brand new v2's' lol. Before I purchased the 2 Black v2's, I was also heavily debating the idea of going with 1 Illusion XL instead, and now I'm trying to convince myself that I don't have any regrets. And listening to the Illusion at the meet on Saturday sure didn't help, lol. These are BAD, EVIL thoughts that keep me up at night. 

Anyways, I'm still going through my library re-listening to songs that I haven't yet heard on my current arrangement, and getting used to it. In a couple weeks or so I'll have the roof and a few other areas around the trunk deadened (one of the amp covers is rattling too, so I'll probably need to open it up and put felt or foam somewhere), and then have everything retuned/eq'd/rta'd, and reevaluate my setup at that time.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

It was good to meet you at Fresno. I wish I was able to audition your vehicle, but I had to run off and judge a couple more cars. I hope you enjoyed listening to mine.


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

papasin said:


> It was good to meet you at Fresno. I wish I was able to audition your vehicle, but I had to run off and judge a couple more cars. I hope you enjoyed listening to mine.


Man, another meet this past Saturday? I am so jealous of you guys having opportunities like this to hear many different setups. I can only dream of my next visit down to your area. My weekend consisted of trying to go visit my local dealer only to find that they are now closed on Saturdays I didn't get to work on my apillars as I need some stuff like heat shrink. Then again it was so freakin' cold I couldn't do much anyways. Lord, I hope his area sees spring sometime.

I know exactly what you mean about not being happy with your setup's sound. I am having a similar problem with mine. I think alot of the problem is tuning and the cold. I also have that issue with my tweeter cutting out/low output. Weird how this issue was non existent the entire trip down to Cali. I am pretty sure it is an rca that is the issue. I need to find out if there are any issues with flipping the rca input panel on my LRx 5.1k. I am going to need to in the end anyways as I am going to have to use 3 of the 6 for my center channel and rears when I get to doing surround (if I do it). Need to figure out if one of them are shorting first tho or if it is the amp itself. Anyways, sorry to bring my issue here but I wanted to let you know you aren't the only one with issues with their setup currently. I am also thinking of replacing all of the rcas too actually as I hate those Audison bulky ends that I have a helluva time hiding anywhere.


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## stock ej8 (Aug 10, 2011)

Hoptologist, I don't know why you feel the need to improve your sound, it sounded nice to me! 

I'm glad I didn't stop by the meet on Sat, I'll probably be hating my system right about now.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Man, I was so tired I missed checking yours out for that rattle. Let me know if your in visalia, and I can check.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

papasin said:


> It was good to meet you at Fresno. I wish I was able to audition your vehicle, but I had to run off and judge a couple more cars. I hope you enjoyed listening to mine.


You too man, I had a blast for the short time I was there. I didn't want to get out of your car, lol. Next time I'd like to make a playlist or cd of some of the music I listen to and take it around to everyone's cars. I had my iPod but I had just reentered/reconfigured all of my music and had no playlists pre-made. Your imaging and soundstage is crazy good, next time I'd like to really like to get to know your XL's better  I wish I had gotten there earlier or stayed longer, but it was a pretty busy day for me too.



james2266 said:


> Man, another meet this past Saturday? I am so jealous of you guys having opportunities like this to hear many different setups. I can only dream of my next visit down to your area. My weekend consisted of trying to go visit my local dealer only to find that they are now closed on Saturdays I didn't get to work on my apillars as I need some stuff like heat shrink. Then again it was so freakin' cold I couldn't do much anyways. Lord, I hope his area sees spring sometime.
> 
> I know exactly what you mean about not being happy with your setup's sound. I am having a similar problem with mine. I think alot of the problem is tuning and the cold. I also have that issue with my tweeter cutting out/low output. Weird how this issue was non existent the entire trip down to Cali. I am pretty sure it is an rca that is the issue. I need to find out if there are any issues with flipping the rca input panel on my LRx 5.1k. I am going to need to in the end anyways as I am going to have to use 3 of the 6 for my center channel and rears when I get to doing surround (if I do it). Need to figure out if one of them are shorting first tho or if it is the amp itself. Anyways, sorry to bring my issue here but I wanted to let you know you aren't the only one with issues with their setup currently. I am also thinking of replacing all of the rcas too actually as I hate those Audison bulky ends that I have a helluva time hiding anywhere.


Lol, yeah it was a nice little event. It was my first time ever experiencing something like that and I can't wait to do it again. I kind of even wished I had entered the competition, the whole thing was pretty exciting.  I'd be glad to trade you weather, at least for a little while, I feel like we got shafted on our winter this year, lol. One thing I'm super happy about is my amps, I definitely no longer have to worry about overheating or lack of headroom  But yeah, it seems like nothing is ever perfect, but that's part of the journey I suppose, I just wish this hobby was a lot less expensive! 



stock ej8 said:


> Hoptologist, I don't know why you feel the need to improve your sound, it sounded nice to me!
> 
> I'm glad I didn't stop by the meet on Sat, I'll probably be hating my system right about now.


Haha. I think I'm just ridiculously picky, and I guess I'm this way about pretty much everything. I can't even remember how many flat panel displays I went through before I finally settled on my plasma, and even that's not perfect (inherent IR/judder/rainbow effect), but it sure beats grey blacks/uneven backlight on LCD's which I absolutely couldn't live with, lol. 

But as far as sub-bass sound, I know what I want, I'm just not that great at getting there yet. Everything is a compromise in some way or another. Forward facing was amazingly smooth, but not enough output. Rear facing is more than enough output, but not quite the sonic characteristic that I completely seek. If I could split the difference, it would be near perfect hehe. I'm still banking on it being largely due to remaining rattles and needing to eq/tune. Some songs sound ideal, but others that I've listened to a hundred times before, I think to myself 'I want it to sound a little more this way or that way.' And again, a lot of it is probably me being ridiculous and nit-picking  But for sure, I'm having a lot of fun listening to it as it currently is, and I'm still kind of in disbelief with just how much bass potential I have right now, lol.



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Man, I was so tired I missed checking yours out for that rattle. Let me know if your in visalia, and I can check.


I know, I was going to hunt you down before I left, but I looked at the clock and couldn't believe how fast the time had flown by, and I had to swing back by my mom's house to make my grandma dinner, I watch her most days of the week. Dustin got to hear my rattles for a bit, but with how fast I lost track of time, there was really no time left for troubleshooting. I'm definitely down to make a trip to Visalia sometime, it would be awesome if BuickGN could also come up from Bakersfield, as I really want to hear his Dyn's and an IB setup. I'll definitely be back in Visalia for another show at the Cellar Door to see Baths on May 22, but actually that's still pretty far out, if I can make it before then I'll for sure let you and Dustin know.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

It was great meeting you on Saturday! Your car sounds good. I love the bass!


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Golden Ear said:


> It was great meeting you on Saturday! Your car sounds good. I love the bass!


Thanks, you too man  Your top-end sounded so smooth and a tad laid-back, which is exactly my kind of style. And your sub, geez, sounds so full and rich, can't wait to hear it with the woofer firing up. Til next time!


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## GavGT (Sep 5, 2011)

Quick question - where did your installer feed the power cable through the bulkhead?

Cheers


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

GavGT said:


> Quick question - where did your installer feed the power cable through the bulkhead?
> 
> Cheers


Ooouhh, I'll have to ask him and get back to you on that :blush:


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

Hoptologist said:


> Ooouhh, I'll have to ask him and get back to you on that :blush:


My guess would be rubber grommet on the driver's side of the firewall just like my Camry and Rav4 were setup. Accord is very similar in alot of regards to Camry. Just my thoughts on the matter even if I don't fully know for sure


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## shawnk (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey I like 7th Gen Accords too! 

Nice build and build log! Keep up the good work!


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Hasn't been much to report lately. My doors still buzz like a pack of bee's, so annoying, so I just drive around with my windows barely down and that cures the issue. And by barely down, I mean millimeters, as in the top of the window still _appears _to be up all the way.

But anyway, I'm going to Visalia to see Baths play at the Cellar Door tonight, so if any of you Visalia guys are bored, it should be a good show


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

There hasn't really been anything new to say, but there will be pretty soon.

I did finally eliminate one source of rattle today. 

Took apart the lock mechanism on the trunk pass-through.









Still made noise, probably the hinge, so the whole thing came out. Me: 1, Rattles: ∞-1


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Just got back from Modesto seeing Piano Guys at the Gallo Center, sweet performance as expected, they're so animated, but they were also very funny in between songs 

Low res pic,


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

Hoptologist said:


> Just got back from Modesto seeing Piano Guys at the Gallo Center, sweet performance as expected, they're so animated, but they were also very funny in between songs
> 
> Low res pic,


I'm jealous. Piano Guys would be very cool to see. Never even heard of them until one of the so-cal group was kind enough to introduce me to them. There are so many awesome performers we are just never exposed to up here IMO.


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## WhereAmEye? (Jun 17, 2013)

Lookin good, any updates on the rattling? I have an '03 Accord and it's basically a rattle trap. Also question, is it okay if I copy your amp rack/ sub box almost to a tee? It seems to be the most efficient use of space I've seen in an Accord, very cool.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

WhereAmEye? said:


> Lookin good, any updates on the rattling? I have an '03 Accord and it's basically a rattle trap. Also question, is it okay if I copy your amp rack/ sub box almost to a tee? It seems to be the most efficient use of space I've seen in an Accord, very cool.


Are we talking about the door rattles, the trunk rattles, the sunglasses storage compartment rattles, the weird rattle under the passenger seat, or one of the other rattles? Lol

I feel your pain, the trunk is the worse. I think my next car will be trunkless. And yes of course, feel free.


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## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

Hoptologist said:


> I think my next car will be trunkless.


Hatchbacks ftw!


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## WhereAmEye? (Jun 17, 2013)

For those of us that can't see it in person, could you put up the finished amp rack? (Finished for now haha)


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Yeah for sure, I thought I had taken one but I guess not. I'll get a few up by tomorrow. It's already 100 outside lol. I feel like sitting in a dark, cold movie theater.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

I stepped outside to take the pics today but I felt like my skin was starting to melt off so I ran back inside. My car sits in the sun all day right now because we've noticed a spider problem in the garage at our complex. I don't mess with spiders, they scare the **** out of me. Pest guy is coming Monday.

I will, however, post pics of something new I bought later tonight. I love revolving aspects of my system, it keeps the thrill alive and it's fun to experience different changes in sound. The only problem is that I'm super indecisive, and money of course, but nevertheless, I'm excited to have begun my next move.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

So long Arc Audio Black 6.2, you've done mighty swell. Hello...



























































































It'll probably be a few weeks before everything is installed, a few _long_ weeks I should say, but I'm super excited. This will be my first 3-way setup, midranges will go in a-pillars, tweeters in either a-pillars or sail panels, and of course the midwoofers in the doors. I've been listening to the 2-way set pretty often at my installer's shop, and I love how they sound. :happy:


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Nice Hop! I had to see them again lol


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## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

Oooo flax goodness. I want a demo when they're in.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> I stepped outside to take the pics today but I felt like my skin was starting to melt off so I ran back inside. My car sits in the sun all day right now because we've noticed a spider problem in the garage at our complex. I don't mess with spiders, they scare the **** out of me. Pest guy is coming Monday.
> 
> I will, however, post pics of something new I bought later tonight. I love revolving aspects of my system, it keeps the thrill alive and it's fun to experience different changes in sound. The only problem is that I'm super indecisive, and money of course, but nevertheless, I'm excited to have begun my next move.


Lol probably dont want to ever come by my house at night then. Huge black widow problem, on the entire west end of my block. I think I killed more than 15 one night, just from the back yard to the side of the front yard. They all hide in the daytime though.

I missed hearing your car at the last event, I need to hear it once you get those installed.


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## WhereAmEye? (Jun 17, 2013)

I need more pics!


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

:thinking2:


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

focals look great!

you still planning the audiofrog 12(s)?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks! It's still what I'm leaning towards as far as price goes... unless I can get a crazy good price on the GZNW 12 hehe.

For anyone local, I'll probably have the GZNW 12 in my car until at least the end of this week if you want a demo. It's simply phenomenal. 

Without changing any gain/eq/tune settings, it gets lower and louder than my 2 Black 12's, while also being less taxing on my amp. My KS2500.1 barely gets warm and my lights don't dim nearly as much at night. The SQ is excellent IMO. The sub remains super controlled and articulate even at the highest outputs, and the lows (20-40hz) feel extremely engulfing, tactile, and authoritative. It's definitely a sub you *feel*. Tonality is just about perfect. And BTW, this is all in a suboptimal box with again, no EQ. It's a BEAST.


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## balane (Jul 4, 2009)

Great choice on your front comps in my opinion. I've had the PS 165FX set in my car for about 4 days now. Still dialing things in but I think they sound fantastic. As people are saying, they do not sound like Focal sets that folks are used to hearing. I couldn't be more pleased, excellent product line.


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## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

Sooooo... Is Rob working on your Focals yet???


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

balane said:


> Great choice on your front comps in my opinion. I've had the PS 165FX set in my car for about 4 days now. Still dialing things in but I think they sound fantastic. As people are saying, they do not sound like Focal sets that folks are used to hearing. I couldn't be more pleased, excellent product line.


Thanks, I love the way they sound. Heard them on the soundboard and in a Corvette so far. Super neutral sounding, easy on the ears, but still lively and dynamic. Very excited 



mrpeabody said:


> Sooooo... Is Rob working on your Focals yet???


HA! But they make such a nice dining room table centerpiece! 

It's been quite a wait, but I think the coast is almost clear. If all goes smoothly, he might be starting next week.


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Glad your liking that GZ!


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

The surround on that GZ sub is GINORMOUS!!! 

Since you're going from a 2-way to a 3-way do you know where you'll be installing each driver? Kicks for the midbasses, pillars for the mids and tweets?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Haha yeah the surround is ridiculous. Midbass in doors since it will be an easy swap, midrange and tweeters in a-pillars. Not sure if they'll be firing at each other or angled yet... I'd like them to look as inconspicuous as possible though. 

I'm hoping my door resonance issues won't be as bad since I'll be taking ~250hz and up out of the doors, which is where I think the main problem area lies.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Interesting. Most of my resonance problems have been from playing lower so I've had to cross my highpass higher to deal with it. With your subs in the trunk you'll want to cross those midbasses as low as possible to bring the bass forward. I prefer the midranges more on-axis than aiming at eachother across the dash (I have it each way in 2 different vehicles) but I know what you mean about keeping it inconspicuous. That's the reason I have them facing each other in my Tahoe.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

I hate my doors lol. I should have done kicks from the get go, I'd have saved so much money by now. But at this point, it's personal between my doors and I, and I'm not giving up yet


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I still don't fully understand why people fire mids/tweets across the dash at each other. Aesthetics be damned, people will spend tons of money of every aspect of their system and then mount the speakers in what has proven to be the worst (in most cases) for SQ. Speakers can still be made to look nice on-axis. 

Doesn't anyone test the best spots/angles anymore before installing?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Duplicate post


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Niebur3 said:


> I still don't fully understand why people fire mids/tweets across the dash at each other. Aesthetics be damned, people will spend tons of money of every aspect of their system and then mount the speakers in what has proven to be the worst (in most cases) for SQ. Speakers can still be made to look nice on-axis.
> 
> Doesn't anyone test the best spots/angles anymore before installing?


I'd say it's indeed aesthetics... trying to get the most stealth/stock appearance. I've also read some people prefer the depth of that kind of setup over the width of on-axis. Additionally, and this might fall outside of your (most cases) example, it's been said by Nick Wingate that all Focal car speakers are "designed to play OFF AXIS smoother than on axis." 

I know my installer personally prefers to have drivers on-axis whenever possible, so I'll probably end up with them angled inward somewhat. I'm going to shoot for a nice balance between stealth and SQ. We have super high rates of car theft in the Fresno area.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Hoptologist said:


> Thanks! It's still what I'm leaning towards as far as price goes... unless I can get a crazy good price on the GZNW 12 hehe.
> 
> For anyone local, I'll probably have the GZNW 12 in my car until at least the end of this week if you want a demo. It's simply phenomenal.
> 
> Without changing any gain/eq/tune settings, it gets lower and louder than my 2 Black 12's, while also being less taxing on my amp. My KS2500.1 barely gets warm and my lights don't dim nearly as much at night. The SQ is excellent IMO. The sub remains super controlled and articulate even at the highest outputs, and the lows (20-40hz) feel extremely engulfing, tactile, and authoritative. It's definitely a sub you *feel*. Tonality is just about perfect. And BTW, this is all in a suboptimal box with again, no EQ. It's a BEAST.


Glad to see you like the Nuclear sub


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I wouldn't mind checking out that Nuclear sub. The Flax setup as well, once you have it installed. I'm in Fresno every Sunday and Wednesday. You can find me at The Habit on Herndon every Wednesday night at about 8:30. If you're free to give a demo, stop by. 

Yes, I will be there tonight.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

That's just 3 stoplights away from me, I'll swing by Petco and then meet you there.


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## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

Mmmmm Habit burgers...


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## 0nbagz (Oct 7, 2014)

Looks grate hoptologist.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I had the chance to get a short demo last night of Hoptologist's car with the GZNW12 installed. Keep in mind that even though I will provide my impressions, the subwoofer was in an enclosure that was not built to spec and tuned around 36 Hz. On to my thoughts...

The GZNW12 *GETS DOWN*. That single 12 in the vented enclosure (pushed by the KS2500.1) has more than enough output for any sane person. I had Hoptologist control the entire demo, even though he offered me control of the bass knob. With the subwoofer turned down, there was no feeling of a need for more bass. Cranked up and it just got silly. It is definitely a fun sub. 

So, what about sound quality? Honestly, I can't give a fair assessment since the enclosure wasn't designed for this subwoofer, much less for SQ. I will say that the Black 12 I have in my install (1 cf sealed, 800w) seems much more transparent and clear compared to the GZNW12 _*in this installation*_. So much of that comes down to enclosure and tune though. 

I would still really like to hear the GZ in a more SQ focused enclosure and install to see how it really compares. I have no doubt that the GZ would trounce my Black 12 in output, but I'm not so sure it would stack up as well on an SQ front. 

Thanks again David for the opportunity to check out the subwoofer and give me a demo. I appreciate you taking the time to meet up with me. I'm also really interested in hearing that Flax set once it goes in. You'll know where to find me.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks Dustin for posting your impressions. I think you said it best by describing it as a fun sub. 

I too would love to hear it in an ideal enclosure with some tuning/eq. I think we could get a lot more out of it from an SQ point of view, but for being what it is currently, it sure is impressive.

Rob and I talked about getting his mic out and doing an RTA. I'm real curious to see what the response looks like as it stands... hopefully he'll have time to do that before making me give it back.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Either way, it is pretty awesome that he let you install it in the car and drive around with it for a few days to get an impression.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Oh yeah, that part is pretty cool too


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Something looks different


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

GZHW30X, I suppose? 

So, smaller voice coil (2.5" vs 3") , lower power handling , lower sensitivity , lower Xmax (22mm vs 50mm) , lower Fs (35.3 Hz vs 23.5 Hz) . Not having heard it, I would probably lean toward the Hydrogen myself. 

Same enclosure? 

How does it sound?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Oh my god, looking at cars is the worst. Finally, after getting up to leave the 6th time, we stepped foot outside of the dealership. And on the way to the car, the salesperson ran out after us and gave us one last offer. Even after previously telling us his prior offer was the best deal he could do, that coming down anymore would be impossible, ...as we were walking to the car they just so *happened* to get a call from the bank for a lower interest rate, bringing my GF's monthly payment much closer to her target range, lol. She accepted and now owns a 2015 Kia Optima. I'm EXHAUSTED.

So yeah, it's the GZHW 30X, Dustin. You win one golden star! :rockon:

We put it in the same enclosure. I think GZ recommends 1.4 cuft so yeah, a bit bigger than that, mauahah. All things considered, it sounds fantastic. I think it retails for what, half the GZNW? It definitely doesn't sound half as good... more like 3/4 as good. 

It gets low and loud and sounds good doing it, to be general. It doesn't get *as* low as the GZNW and you can't *feel* the bass like you can on the GZNW. The GZNW is very special in that way. So while there's not as much physical sensation, output is not a concern because it still gets loud, haha. Tonality is a step behind the GZNW. With the GZNW, you can put your ear up to it and hear nothing; it's very much like a nice high-end home sub in that regard. No tone-y-ness at all. The GZHW is very close, but not quite as *perfect*. 

That's pretty much all I can say about it so far. We've only played it for about 2 hours, so I haven't gotten to know it as well as I did the GZNW yet. 

I have some disgusting trunk rattles that will be addressed in the next few days. Long overdue. I'm very much looking forward to actually being able to hear sub bass without the clnk dnk ptt chkk ptpk... or however rattling sounds typed out. 

Next week probably stick one of my Blacks in the ported box and see what that sounds like. Kinda just going with the flow and tinkering about until my Blacks sell.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Car shopping sucks. Best experience we had was at visalia kia. We purposely never told them our monthly limit, just what our total out the door price was. No hassles, no haggling, we told them what we wanted it for, left the dealership, they called us the next day and said ok. But we we're pre-approved first, and we didn't tell them what our rate was. So we went back, they called several banks, and beat our rate. Best thing is not to tell them a payment amount, get pre-approved, and then don't tell them your rate. Just say it's good.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Yeah, what a headache. We went to Clovis on Saturday, Selma on Sunday, and back to Clovis today. The initial offers are always so ridiculous. Selma felt the most salesman'ish, but both places really put on the pressure that you pretty much have to distance yourself from the situation in order to enter the next round of negotiations. I noticed if we stayed sitting at the table, the offer wouldn't change, but if we got up, it was "hold on a moment while I go back to speak to my sales manager." 

It was my gf's first time buying a car so she was pretty nervous and felt intense from the whole thing. Her stepdad who owns a tire shop went with her the first time which was good, because he could talk their *talk*. 

We ended up getting a good deal, but it took so much time and instances of getting up to leave. It was definitely a hassle, but in the end, she got the model and options she wanted, for less than the recommended price/estimated monthly payments on sites like Edmunds, and with a great rate. 

On the flip side, I'm so glad that I love my 07 Accord and don't feel the need to get anything new anytime soon. My audio system, on the other hand, is a different story! New everything asap!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Good on ya (and the GF) for getting a good deal on the Kia. We've been debt free for a few years and won't ever have a car payment again. One less thing to hassle with at the dealer. Haggling is one of the reasons I prefer to buy local, or negotiate over the phone ahead of time when traveling to buy a car. If they know you've driven for several hours to go see a car, they seem much less likely to negotiate in my experience. 

We just switched our credit union to EECU and they pre-approved us when we signed up for a pretty hefty auto loan @ 1.8%. It was tempting for about 1/2 a second, but neither of us has any desire to take on payments again.  Like you, we're happy enough in our '04 and '05 xBs, for now. Though my wife has a VW itch that might need to be scratched sooner than later. 

If you've got the Hydrogen in for a while, I'd love to meet up again for a demo. (I won't be up there this Wednesday.)


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

If you you're not going to do another car payment in the future...that means you'll pay in full?  If you save up the money, I don't see why not, although I'd have separation anxiety giving that much away at once though hehe. But at least you wouldn't be letting them get an oz of interest from you. 

I signed up for the Discover IT card earlier this year when I saw the Slickdeal thread that it was back up to $150 cash back for spending $750, plus the revolving 5% cashback rewards and Shopdiscover 10% Petco cashback etc are pretty nice, but I pay in full every month to make sure I never pay a dime of interest. The day I can't pay in full is the day I will rip up the card, well probably not heehee, but the only way that will happen is if I forget to pay, and I'm pretty diligent about that. 

So you won't be in Fresno until Sunday then? I miiiight have a Black 12 in the ported box by then. Really interested to see how it stacks up against the Hydrogen since they are pretty close in price. 

The more I listen to the Hydrogen the more I'm seeing some tradeoffs, both ways. It's weird having downgraded from the GZNW hehe, it's hard to evaluate it objectively without comparing it to the GZNW, knowing what I know about the GZNW. But, with the GZNW, it literally felt like someone was drop kicking the back of my head in a few songs, and the Hydrogen handles those songs with a softer finesse that I enjoy more. So, there are at least a few songs I maybe prefer the Hydrogen on. Overall though, I do miss that extra physical feeling from the GZNW. 

And again, for anyone reading this for the first time, this is all with zero EQ/tuning adjustments and in a suboptimal box, etc. So considering that, both are very impressive and neither are very picky about enclosure specs.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> If you you're not going to do another car payment in the future...that means you'll pay in full?  If you save up the money, I don't see why not, although I'd have separation anxiety giving that much away at once though hehe. But at least you wouldn't be letting them get an oz of interest from you.
> 
> I signed up for the Discover IT card earlier this year when I saw the Slickdeal thread that it was back up to $150 cash back for spending $750, plus the revolving 5% cashback rewards and Shopdiscover 10% Petco cashback etc are pretty nice, but I pay in full every month to make sure I never pay a dime of interest. The day I can't pay in full is the day I will rip up the card, well probably not heehee, but the only way that will happen is if I forget to pay, and I'm pretty diligent about that.


Yep. Paying in full and buying used. My wife's xB is likely the last brand new car we will ever buy. That separation anxiety is exactly why we have decided to take this route. It is easy to tell yourself something only costs you a few hundred bucks a month in order to justify a purchase. Having to drop a huge chunk of of your hard earned money all at once really makes you question whether or not the value is actually there for you. 

This isn't a tact for everyone, but it has worked well for us. We still desire new cars. All the time. We're both "car people." But we've had to learn to be content with what we have. 



Hoptologist said:


> So you won't be in Fresno until Sunday then? I miiiight have a Black 12 in the ported box by then. Really interested to see how it stacks up against the Hydrogen since they are pretty close in price.
> 
> The more I listen to the Hydrogen the more I'm seeing some tradeoffs, both ways. It's weird having downgraded from the GZNW hehe, it's hard to evaluate it objectively without comparing it to the GZNW, knowing what I know about the GZNW. But, with the GZNW, it literally felt like someone was drop kicking the back of my head in a few songs, and the Hydrogen handles those songs with a softer finesse that I enjoy more. So, there are at least a few songs I maybe prefer the Hydrogen on. Overall though, I do miss that extra physical feeling from the GZNW.
> 
> And again, for anyone reading this for the first time, this is all with zero EQ/tuning adjustments and in a suboptimal box, etc. So considering that, both are very impressive and neither are very picky about enclosure specs.


Interesting assessment on the Hydrogen vs the Nuclear. The GZNW certainly didn't seem to be lacking any output when you demoed. 

We actually plan to be up in Fresno on Friday evening for Halloween. My wife's parents are going to watch our son for that night and we might catch a movie while we're in town. You swapping in the Black on Friday?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Geez, this week went by quick. I'd say there's a 50/50 chance of swapping it out tomorrow, with a 50/50 chance of me being wrong, and a 50/50 chance of me having no idea. I've learned not to rely on specific dates anymore :surprised:  

I really want to see Gone Girl and Nightcrawler.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

ok... is that 150/150 of something happening?? or 150/300 of the same something ha ha? (I cant count thanks to dos equis xx) 
Anyways I have pre-called in sick tomorrow and will be in the garage cutting/hammering the stereo stuff all day. Anyone that shows up for trick or treat will get greeted by me in a face mask, circular saw in hand and a drill in the other hand!!


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

diy.phil said:


> ok... is that 150/150 of something happening?? or 150/300 of the same something ha ha? (I cant count thanks to dos equis xx)
> Anyways I have pre-called in sick tomorrow and will be in the garage cutting/hammering the stereo stuff all day. Anyone that shows up for trick or treat will get greeted by me in a face mask, circular saw in hand and a drill in the other hand!!


Haha :laugh:. Somehow I calculated it being close to 12.5% in the end, but I've been drinking too :surprised: 

I sense an invitation in there somewhere. Trade you some dos equis xx for a flax install??


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

whoa 12.5% - that's like a Class D for Delinquent installer!!! I'm definitely under 12.5% now because I haven't started yet. Ok we all need to at least do something/partial so that D is for Delightful and then D is for Delicious if we can get more done ha ha.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Since you're talking beer...

We've been approached by a restauranteur in Fresno to develop a beer ice cream for him. He is wanting to use an oatmeal stout. His future restaurant will be brewing their own beer, but for now we have used Rogue Shakespeare Oatmeal Stout for testing. 

Anyway, we're on round 2 of our test batches and we have an extra pint. If figured since you are the "Hoptologist" you might want to give it a try? 

We'll be heading up to Fresno this evening and should be getting there around 5, or just after. If you'd like to try the pint and give us some feedback, just shoot me a text by 4:00. We could meet up with you real quick on the way in if it works with your schedule.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Wow, that's pretty awesome, you guys must be doing very well to get approached like that 

And a new restaurant that will be brewing beer in town, another reason to be excited! This wouldn't be Mad Duck would it? Is it going to be used as a stout float do you know, or just by itself? I'm just typing out loud... you might be sworn to secrecy 

I'd love to try some. We got our carpet cleaned today, so I have to jet home and put all the furniture back (played tetris with it in the kitchen) and get ready for tonight. I think I have time in between to meet up real quick though, I'll text you!


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

We put the Arc Black 12 in the ported box yesterday. Haven't played too much music, but early reports indicate that it is a bit boomy. The tonality is pretty weighty. I'll put it through the paces this week, but I'm thinking it would prefer a lower tuning frequency.

Dustin, I've been saving the ice cream for a night when I have a couple friends over so we could all try it together, but last night I couldn't resist, so I had just one bite. And then another. I could have easily demolished the entire pint to myself, but I gathered some will power and was able to put it back. But, I might have had a couple more bites after that, just to, you know, make sure my spoons were still working. Super tasty.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I figured the Arc would prefer a lower tune than the GZ subs. I don't know that the Arc could match the output, but I would bet that it is capable of digging a bit deeper in the right enclosure. 

Thanks for the feedback on the ice cream! Did it taste like outmeal stout? Did it still have some beer flavor? How was the consistency? Did it get icy? Sorry, I know my wife will ask.  

The restauranteur shared some with his partners and he said they all really liked it. Looks like we'll be setting up a meeting or teleconference with him soon.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Yeah, in this box, the Black definitely can't match the output of the GZ subs I tried. On a few songs we played where there is very low bass extension, the Black reproduced it, but not in any way like the GZ subs. 

I think I'm going to give one of my Blacks to my gf. I've been talking to her about doing a complete setup, but it's going to be a while until she's ready. In the meantime, we can at least take care of the low end and get rid of her 8" Infinity subparwoofer. I'm thinking a Black in a 2.25 ported box tuned to 30hz would do. She likes loud bass, and her JL W1 got stupid loud in her old Elantra, but it also sounded stupid, lol. A ported Black should demolish it in every aspect. I'll use my old Kenwood mono that she had running her JL which does "500 rms" @ 2 ohms, and then sell the JL.

I'd be happy to give you lots more feedback after tonight or tomorrow, which is when I'm planning to *share* it with a few others . But to briefly address your points, it did taste like oatmeal stout, very yummy, and the consistency was perfect IMO. I sometimes warm my ice cream up for a few seconds in the microwave because I don't like it too frozen/hard, but this was nice and soft. It hasn't gotten icy at all.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback. 

I look forward to checking out your GF's Optima build and comparing to what TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL does with his wife's Optima build.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

I finally decided on which sub I will be running with my Flax 3-ways, and it should arrive tomorrow :biggrinflip:

And Dustin, we dusted the Stout Ice Cream tonight! No one was satisfied with just a few bites, everyone wanted more. Super delicious, the sweetness and bitterness of the chocolate and oatmeal stout is perfectly balanced, as is the consistency. The only other place I've had something remotely like this was at Lagunitas where they have a Stout Float, but I prefer this any day of the week. I tried hard to think of any areas that could be improved, even if slightly, but I couldn't think of one. It's an ice cream dream.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Sooooo what is it?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback! 

I want to know what you'll be running as well. It obviously isn't the Black. Just get the new sub and Flax installed so I can get another demo!


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

I'd consider driving down to Fresno for a mini meet after this is all done.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Knowing that he likes tons of bass, my money is on the GZNW


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Ah guys, come on, you know I like to lead with pics :evilgrin: 

I just hope the delivery driver doesn't play any tricks on me. If he's not overly large, Ill use ionization energy blasters.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I'll be experimenting with my wife's new subwoofer this weekend. Most likely end up with it in the front passenger foot well.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'll be experimenting with my wife's new subwoofer this weekend. Most likely end up with it in the front passenger foot well.


Make it fit!  Have you looked at captainobvious' Mazdaspeed 3 in-dash installation?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'll be experimenting with my wife's new subwoofer this weekend. Most likely end up with it in the front passenger foot well.


Is the cabin sealed off pretty well from the trunk in these cars? I noticed the back seat fold-down cup holders don't have a trunk pass-through, and the rear speakers are in the back doors rather than the rear deck lid. My gf's model has the 8" Infinity IB in the rear deck lid, and that seems like the only opening for bass to enter into the cabin. Are you planning to do upfront bass because of all that, or just to try something different?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

The trunk is pretty sealed off, the 8" opening is the only significant opening connecting the cabin to the trunk. But the real reason for the front sub is for much smoother response. I tested a while back, and the foot well mounted sub has a MUCH smoother un-eq'd response, and much better decay times as well compared to putting it anywhere in the trunk. I actually lost output putting it in the front, but listening wise, it was just flat out better. Dustin can attest to that, as he heard the sub mounted in the back vs front as well in the Kia. And that was with a cheapo 10" sub with maybe 3mm linear? 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2073502-post8.html


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

The trunk is pretty sealed off, the 8" opening is the only significant opening connecting the cabin to the trunk. But the real reason for the front sub is for much smoother response. I tested a while back, and the foot well mounted sub has a MUCH smoother un-eq'd response, and much better decay times as well compared to putting it anywhere in the trunk. I actually lost output putting it in the front, but listening wise, it was just flat out better. Dustin can attest to that, as he heard the sub mounted in the back vs front as well in the Kia. And that was with a cheapo 10" sub with maybe 3mm linear? 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2073502-post8.html


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Yep, I preferred the up front sub as well. I'm interested to see how his Optima build progresses. Should be some gear we don't see a whole lot of around here.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I'll be cutting and assembling the box tomorrow. Only have half inch mdf laying around, but with the small size of the box and some bracing it should be fine.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

What a loonnnngggg day! New sub time 

Spent a few hours listening to everything from Metallica to Royksopp. It's low end is probably my second favorite so far that I've heard in my car. Better low end than the Hydrogen and Black, but the Nuclear is still KING there. Upper end not quite as "fast" as the Hydrogen or Nuclear, about the same as the Black, but different tonality. The Black didn't like the box as much as the others. It didn't sound bad, it just didn't shine like it did sealed, but that is partly the Black not liking this box. The Hydrogen and the Black would definitely benefit from a lower tuning.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Never heard a DD! What model is that? Have you tried throwing the specs of the sub and box into WinISD to see the tune?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

You aint never not lived til you heard one! Hehe, j/k. But they can be verrrrrry good. BigRed won IASCA West Coast finals in 2009 while running 2 9515G's in a 10 cu ft ported box, scored a perfect in the sub category. I've heard 1508's, a 2515, and 9500's, and they all sounded great in the quick time that I had to evaluate them.

The DD in my trunk is an older generation 2512. This is the sub that the box in my trunk was designed for. 2.5 cubes tuned to 36hz, but make no mistake, it can get down.  I played half of the Tron soundtrack earlier and the low frequency extension sounded and felt great. We had it playing pretty loud, and it remained articulate and controlled when it came to those lowest frequencies. Sounded like a nice HT sub, but not on the same level as the GZNW 12


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Well, I didn't see that coming. 

I would have guessed DD before you started trying all of the GZ gear, but almost forgot that they carried DD once you started testing the GZ subs.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Haha, well I've been intentionally and needlessly ambiguous here, most likely just for my own amusement. Just to be clear, this isn't what got delivered yesterday or what I'll be running with the Flax. 

I thought my poor attempt at being riddle-esque in post #121 had for sure given it away and that you guys were just being nice to me.   Now I think that you guys just thought I was being weird, lol.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Illusion C12XL!!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Golden Ear said:


> Illusion C12XL!!


Ha! I was going to post the same thing. 

You know, there is a Gladen 12 in the classified section right now, too?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Haha yes!! :biggrinflip::sunny::happy::drummer:

I'm real excited. I was considering the Gladen, Stereo Integrity, Audiofrog, IDMAX 15, and GZ, but I just couldn't ever get the Illusion out of my mind. I feel like I have to have my time with one before I'd be 100% content with something else, otherwise I will be constantly looking back and wondering. 

The day after I ordered my 2 Black 12's I had that feeling in my stomach that I should have gone with the Illusion. I had been debating between the 2 options for weeks, and only chose the 2 Blacks out of the blue one day because I suddenly decided I wanted to experience owning a dual sub setup. And the whole time I ran them, I could never get the feeling that I should have gone with the Illusion out of the corner of my mind!

And then all these new subs entered the picture and I was completely set on doing a ported setup. I was craving some SQL, with an large emphasis on the L, and as it turned out, I was able to sort of satisfy that craving over this last month. Running the GZNW for a week or 2 was just out of this world awesome. I can see myself getting that sub at some point in a more SQ goal oriented setup/tune, if I ever end up wanting to part from the XL...

I've heard the XL for probably a combined 20-30 minutes from that one Fresno event. I've read everyone's impressions of it here, but I really don't know what to expect from it in my car, other than it probably besting the single Black 12 setup I ran a couple years ago. While it likely wont get as loud as these ported setups I've just had, that's fine with me. I'm ready for a more balanced, SQ dominant sound. I'll be running mine sealed. I'm going out of town for the weekend so I'll probably take pics when I get back. It's so BEAUTIFUL!

Haha, and of course, Rob had to one up me by getting 2 XL's for himself in his Evo, along with 2 Mosconi 300.2's to amplify them


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Nice! If you don't like it you'll have no trouble selling it lol. 

Is there any way that you can get the xl up front like in the passenger footwell? If not, consider facing it up under the rear package tray through an opening if there is one.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Dibs! 

Just in case you do decide you want to go another direction.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Upfront would be cool, but I don't think I can. I'm a designated driver of sorts for my grandma and it's already a challenge for her to get in without having to worry about a sub down there, plus when I go on road trips and take turns driving with others, not having leg room would be a bummer for me, even though my ears probably wouldn't mind, hehe. We'll do some experimenting in the trunk. I'd love to be able to put luggage in there again for trips, but it would be a shame to put a cage over such a pretty cone. ;o

I need to start operation dead trunk. I refuse to have rattles with the XL! And if I have to deaden every single panel and mechanism, then so be it. 80% of my rattles are currently coming from this piece of my trunk that the license plate is attached to. That piece is bolted to the trunk and rattles like hell... it's not the license plate. Not sure what to call it, but here's a pic from Google http://images.dealerrevs.com/gallery/photo.php?id=21178665


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I know how to fix those rattles..............


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

While my car isn't an Accord, I think it's made pretty similarly and I had to do a bit to address rattles also, but as some that have heard it, definitely doable to get rid of them. And once you're done, I have a feeling you'll be pleased. And yes, they do look pretty nice. Don't remember if we ever opened my trunk when you demo'd mine, but I think they fit in pretty nicely as I'm sure yours will too.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL, I'd love to hear your ideas, especially for my doors. I remember you suggesting U brackets in the past. I need to get down to Visalia one of these days. Interested to see if the Flax makes a difference there since they will be playing such a narrower band of frequencies.

papasin, I remember we popped open the trunk, but it wasn't as um, empty as in that pic, so I could barely see them 

And Golden Ear had his down firing if I remember correctly, so I couldn't see his either lol.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

For sure, I just finished the test enclosure for the si. Going to mount it and test it out tonight.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

So I just had a tune sessions with lycancatt and he pretty much was able to get the resonance out of the doors. I was HP at 70hz before but then we kept going up to around 90 and that really cleaned up the resonance. There are also a bunch of eq cuts but I think moving the HP above 80 really helped.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

gregerst22 said:


> How are those vented into the cabin? Rear seat fold down?



The SI has a stock 8" midwoofer in the rear deck that I removed.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> papasin, I remember we popped open the trunk, but it wasn't as um, empty as in that pic, so I could barely see them


Yeah, hehe. The pic with the C12XLs I showed is probably one of the rare instances where my trunk is empty. When we popped it open, the trunk was already reloaded with the supplies that we typically bring to a comp as I typically bring tools, limited spare equipment, etc.

But even on a daily basis, I typically have all kinds of items in the back like the older pic below (although that one only had the side firing box at the time, but this is pretty typical and you get the idea). This is my daily driver after all and just happens to go to comps once in awhile.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Haha, yeah I know how it goes 

What do you use to protect the woofers from stray objects when you have stuff in the trunk? I can't recall if I've seen any pics of your XL subs covered up with some type of grill.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> What do you use to protect the woofers from stray objects when you have stuff in the trunk? I can't recall if I've seen any pics of your XL subs covered up with some type of grill.


Without grills:










With grills:


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Ah, sweet, where did you get them, or did you make them? What I mean is, do you have any extras? Bahah 

I should have had some this whole time. For the past 3 years, whenever we've gone out of town in my car, we've just piled everything in the backseat. And at least a few of those times we've had a friend back there too, lol.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> Ah, sweet, where did you get them, or did you make them? What I mean is, do you have any extras? Bahah
> 
> 
> 
> I should have had some this whole time. For the past 3 years, whenever we've gone out of town in my car, we've just piled everything in the backseat. And at least a few of those times we've had a friend back there too, lol.



Lol. I ordered a couple of these and are using them slightly differently than intended.

http://www.parts-express.com/parts-express-steel-mesh-2-piece-grill-for-12-speaker-black--260-428

I inverted the ring and had to enlarge the holes a little bit. Then I attached the ring to the one that the XL comes with and put speaker gasket tape in between the inverted PE ring and the XL ring, then bolted those onto the sub enclosure via T-nuts JT helped me with before the grills. It actually works quite nicely. The grills are quite snug and don't rattle, which was of initial concern. Just come to our meet next weekend and you can come check out more XLs.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Welp, just saw Interstellar in IMAX. I had been looking forward to it more than any other movie this year, Guardians of the Galaxy being a close second. So yeah, I had huge expectations going into it, which is usually a bad thing. I love Nolan, love Zimmer, love scifi/space movies, the trailer looked huge, not to mention that it currently has a 9 on IMDb and holds the 12th spot on the top250 list. In fact, my expectations have probably never been higher for any movie ever. And they were unquestionably and effortlessly exceeded. 

There are several spans of moments in the film that create huge magnitudes of emotional intensity. Moments that are far greater than the sum of their parts, with the score being a major driving force in creating that emotional impact. 

This is the type of movie that compels me to persistently pursue sonic ice cream and create the most immersive home theater experience that I possible can. Interstellar won't be everyone's favorite, but it definitely makes my top3. Anyway, just wanted to throw this out there.


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Good throw Hop! I caught it  Interstellar is a great movie and I appreciate Nolan's efforts to provoke thought and introspection. Good post...


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Would you say it is worth it to see in IMAX? It would mean driving up to Fresno for us. My wife really dislikes space movies (she was asleep 10 minutes into Gravity), so getting her to see Interstellar is going to be a bit of a chore. The fact that it is 3 hours long doesn't help my case, either. 

Oh yeah, and are the Flax and Carbon in yet?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Definitely worth it to see it in IMAX. It's almost a requirement.   Although I'm super biased now, so take that into consideration. 

Not only was it very visual, but the scale of the score through the IMAX sound system probably took it to another level. I'd say it benefits from the IMAX experience in every aspect.

I liked Gravity a LOT, but it was definitely slower paced, and spent more time in space, than Interstellar. So that should help maintain her interest. 

No Flarbon in yet...


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

I was at the shop for a few hours today, aaaaanndd, no Flarbon yet, but we did get rid of a disgustingly hideous rattle in the trunk. OK, not completely rid of, but 90%. 

It was the rattle that I had previously assumed was from that package tray thingamajig, because when we would exert force against it, the rattle would stop. Well, it wasn't the package tray thingamajig, after all. I'm probably about to perform a poor job of explaining what the cause really was, so sorry in advance. 

We started by removing the package tray thingamajig, which was being held on by 4 bolts and 3 plastic clips. Doing so, however, had no effect on the rattle, which we verified by playing the same song before and after.










Next, we unbolted the trunk latch and slapped some BAM on it and reattached it to the inside-trunk-skin. Still rattled. Arggh!!

So we started prodding the area by the latch, because it was definitely the source of the rattle, somehow. OK, here's the part that I wished I would have taken pics of, because my words might not be enough- 

The trunk lid is composed of an outer-metal-skin and an inner-metal-skin. They are fused together by a very poor weld job at at least 2 adjacent locations (guessing, because we can't really see that area that well). Maybe it was once a fine, upstanding weld job, but now, it was shoddy and weak. When certain bass frequencies would "hit", those 2 plates (the outer and inner metal skins, at the location where they meet) would become excited and hit each other super fast, thus creating a contender for the world's worst rattle.

So what we started doing was mass loading those 2 skins/plates to create some rigidity, hoping the otherwise flimsy skins would cease their yapping. Doing so had an effect on the rattle, but it didn't make it stop. 

When we would use our hands to clamp the outer and inner metal skins together, the rattling would stop, and when we pushed them apart so that they couldn't hit each other, the rattle also stopped. So we drilled holes through the area where they were welded together (see pic below). Now they had space to breathe and wouldn't hit each other when each panel would vibrate. And when we closed the trunk and played the same song, the rattling was pretty much 90% gone!! :beerchug:










We are thinking about bolting the 2 panels together where we drilled holes through the 2 weak welding sites (mimicking the environment from where we clamped the 2 skins together with our hands), but we didn't, at least not yet. We're not sure if that would induce more rattling because the panels would be touching again, or if it would eliminate that last 10%. Either way, I'm very pleased with how it currently is, so I'm leaving it for now. 

Next time will be tackling the rattling coming from the headliner area in the front by the sunglasses compartment/lights, and then Flarbon installation!


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## WhereAmEye? (Jun 17, 2013)

Hey look I found our cars haha


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

Expandy foam can't go in there?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

WhereAmEye? said:


> Hey look I found our cars haha


Haha, same color and everything.



sirbOOm said:


> Expandy foam can't go in there?


It could, there's a bunch of access holes to that spot where the 2 skins/plates meet. I'm not very familiar with expandable foam though. What if when it dries it becomes loose and turns into a new source of rattling, would that be a possibility?


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

papasin said:


>


Man that zenclosures cab keeps tempting me.. Though I'm thinking of building my own for some control on the dimensions on that idea. Your achievements with that build though speak well of how the zenclosure can work in with the system. Since I've pulled my rears I'll have three holes through the deck for all that bass to travel.. If I stick with one 10" I'll need it though.


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

Hoptologist said:


> It could, there's a bunch of access holes to that spot where the 2 skins/plates meet. I'm not very familiar with expandable foam though. What if when it dries it becomes loose and turns into a new source of rattling, would that be a possibility?


It won't come loose. Just don't put too much in there where it gets trapped in any way because when it expands it will expand until the chemical reaction is over and it's been known to pop panels (rare, but it can happen). Just spray a little bit in there, let it expand it'll fill in the gap. Test. Little more maybe...

If not that you can always try and stuff dense foam in there.

But sounds like you already fixed it.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

I've been meaning to post some Carbon XL pics for a while. I may have gone a little overboard. :drunk: :blush: :evilgrin:

P&S camera:























































DSLR camera:




































































































DID SUM1 SAY CAT THREAD??


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## mr.metoo (Feb 20, 2010)

Great build, love those cats


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

That C12XL looks awesome. You must be anxious to getting them in and running.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

mr.metoo said:


> Great build, love those cats


Hehe, thanks. Yeah, they don't complain much  



teldzc1 said:


> That C12XL looks awesome. You must be anxious to getting them in and running.


Extremely! :z:

If I had the mad skills, or the time to experiment and learn right now, the FlaXL would have been in the day of delivery, but school is kicking my ass. Every week it seems I have at least 3 papers to write. Short-term courses are teh sux0r.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

I've been sans sub for one day now, and I'm still alive! The Arc Black components definitely don't disappoint. Anyway, box is being built for my Carbon XL, and it should be in soon! :gorgeous::balloon::Mr-T::egypt:arty2:


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Niiice! 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Not much to report yet, other than the enclosure has mysteriously materialized from out of the ether.  Pictures of the allure below-


























































Haven't listened to it yet, but I'm super thrilled to be at this point. And I really like the way the enclosure looks, almost too much so to have it carpeted over. In fact, I was thinking about having it stained or something to the like.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

oooooh look at that!!! Very nice!!


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks phil arty2:

While I await the future, I'm going through some end-of-year best lists. Always an exciting time for new music. Currently going through Pretty Much Amazing's Best Songs of 2014 here https://play.spotify.com/user/pmablog/playlist/3KpCsF2ABo02mkqf6QYokf (in ascending order) if anyone wants to join. perator:

There's some stuff that I absolutely love from 2014 (Caribou, Lil Silva, Jessie Ware, Banks, Hundred Waters, Royksopp, so many others), but I think 2013 was a better year overall. 

PMA's best of songs list has me wanting to #facepalm too many times to count. And I feel very dirty using a hashtag, sorry for that, it's honestly my first time and I don't even have a twitter. I almost don't even want to press the submit button. Oh well, yolo, right? Hahaha, that is also the first time I've said that, if you can believe it. Ok, enough goofing around for now.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Nice enclosure! How much space you giving it? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

It has about 1.3 cu ft of space after displacement and braces. That seemed to be the sweet spot reported by users, and it should give me a little more bottom-end, which I enjoy more so than mid-upper bass. Not that the XL is short on bottom-end to begin with... hehe. 

I'll also be using some Blackhole Stuff (might as well go all out, lol) but it is currently back-ordered.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

If you need some recycled denim insulation, which I believe is what Blackhole Stuff is, let me know. I have a TON of Bonded Logic Ultratouch in my garage and I could drop some off to you on one of my trips to Fresno.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Yep, seeing and handling both products in person, there's not going to be a difference between black hole stuff and the stuff Dustin has.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Interesting, thanks for the heads up guys, I'll get back to you on that. Dustin, haven't seen you around lately, taking a DIYMA break like Hanatsu? :vanish: :surprised:

Hope you guys had nice holidays...and everyone else too.


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## few35t (Dec 10, 2014)

I'm actually super disappointed you didn't need SOME form of electrical upgrade. You're running, what, roughly 3000w rms? I'm at about 2100w, have a 120a alternator vs your 90a, and wasted like $200 on a Kinetik HC2000. WEAK!

Nice job on the build, sub'd!


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## WhereAmEye? (Jun 17, 2013)

w35t_fg2 said:


> I'm actually super disappointed you didn't need SOME form of electrical upgrade. You're running, what, roughly 3000w rms? I'm at about 2100w, have a 120a alternator vs your 90a, and wasted like $200 on a Kinetik HC2000. WEAK!
> 
> Nice job on the build, sub'd!


Never doubt the power of die-hard platinum haha


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

w35t_fg2 said:


> I'm actually super disappointed you didn't need SOME form of electrical upgrade. You're running, what, roughly 3000w rms? I'm at about 2100w, have a 120a alternator vs your 90a, and wasted like $200 on a Kinetik HC2000. WEAK!
> 
> Nice job on the build, sub'd!


Haha  Yeah roughly 3,000 rms, but I probably only use like 1,500...who knows. A H.O. alternator would have maybe been a nice supplement when I was running 2 Black 12's, only because I had some headlight dimming, but I probably would have gotten some LED lights instead. Damn sealed boxes  

Ported boxes are so sweet because they are so efficient. That Nuclear 12" is what, 2000 rms? And even during the deepest, most thunderous bass notes, no dimming at all. We'll see how the XL does. 

The Arc KS 2500.1 was always cool to the touch when running a ported sub. With the 2 12's sealed it got kind of warm, but still nothing compared to amps I've run in the past. Just found out that it is 71% efficient @ 1 ohm and 74% efficient @ 2 ohms. Not bad for what is pretty much A/B.



WhereAmEye? said:


> Never doubt the power of die-hard platinum haha


:beerchug:


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## few35t (Dec 10, 2014)

Actually noticed the other morning when it was dark that my headlights were dimming a bit with the system going full bore. Kind of surprising actually.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

This transpired in the evening of Monday, January 12...










Would have posted about it earlier, but I've been real busy...


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

I'm sure it's too early for a verdict but what's the early report on that sub? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Ok now I'm thinking of a plate of wings and a good IPA. Thanks!! Nice discreet sub box.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Babs said:


> Ok now I'm thinking of a plate of wings and a good IPA. Thanks!! Nice discreet sub box.


Haha, it's never too early for a good IPA. Good eye on spotting the sub box, you must have impeccable vision. 

But yes, looks in the trunk are my last priority. I've probably opened my trunk more times in the past 6 months just to swap a sub out than I have to admire or store something back there. I'm not exactly financially comfortable, so all of my money goes to equipment and materials. My tweeters are fairly inconspicuous for being surface mounted, and I'm pretty sure it bothers my installed more than me that they never got wrapped. He joked once that he was going to do it one of these times that I dropped my car off without telling me, well that hasn't happened... 

Back to the XL... I will do something to it to make it more visually pleasing, but I wanted to hear it and make sure I liked it enough to keep it first, lol. And I do. I'm a big fan of the light-wooden look, and I'm still thinking about doing some sort of stain and clear coat seal... but I'll probably wimp out and just carpet it.

teldzc1, I'll get on that early report real soon... just woke up and my brain is still playing catch up to the rest of my body.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

teldzc1 said:


> I'm sure it's too early for a verdict but what's the early report on that sub?


Even though I’ve probably only spent a grand total of ~6 hours listening to the Illusion C12 XL, I have a lot to say about it. Keep in mind that the following impressions were made with no changes in tuning or EQ (yet) since I had my dual Arc Black 12’s. The only setting that was adjusted was the gain. 

Here’s a fun-filled Illusion XL FAQ that I made when I was bored:

Do I like it overall?
Definitely. Has a wonderful low-end presence, laughs at the busiest and most complex bass passages, reproduces the quickest double bass (and triple, quadruple, infinituple) notes without breaking a sweat, and sounds so detailed, organic, natural, transparent, and whole, with next to zero localization (one of my biggest pet peeves).

Do I love it overall?
Y-y-yeah… well, OK lets go back in time. We just hooked it up, and Rob, V, and I get in the car, ready to play some music. First off, I rarely do well with the first listening experience with any sub, and this was no exception. I was so dang nervous, filled with thoughts like will I like it?, will it be enough bass?, will it live up to the hype?, will I be underwhelmed or overwhelmed?, I hope I'm not underwhelmed, just smile the whole time and nod like you like it, what sub do I want to get next?, maybe I should have purchased that GZNW 12 in the classifieds for $500, what songs should I play?, shoot I should have made a new playlist, oh man here goes nothing.

So I begin playing the usual songs that I usually play when listening to a new sub; songs that I know quite well. I want to listen to as many songs as possible, so I play about a minute or so of each one. Kind of like ADD song hopping. *Waits for the bass drop… it played the bass, check! Ok next song… waits for the bass to come in, it played the bass, good enough, check! On to the next…* I was somewhat in my head with the previous thoughts still, so I had some sort of psychological block going on. That’s not to say I wasn’t listening to or enjoying the songs and sub… I, in fact, quite was, but I was also *trying* to. And I was a little more conscious of my expectations than I was in how the sub was sounding… constantly comparing it to my short list of comparisons. Needless to say, I walked away from my first listening experience a tad underwhelmed. 

That night and the following day, similar conclusions were arrived at, and then something happened, probably around Wednesday. I must have completely let go of any and all expectations, and I started to hear things that I’d never heard before. Familiar songs sounded brand new to me. I was listening to songs as a whole, instead of them sounding somewhat deconstructed. The bass wasn’t some separate entity, it sounded ultra-cohesive, and live. The bass was so clear and distinct for each song… how could the same sub sound so different in every song I played?

Long story short, the more I listen to the XL, the more infatuated I’m becoming. So yes, I absolutely, without a doubt, now love it overall.

Is it enough bass for me?
Yes and no. Some songs give me more bass than I could ever need, and others leave me wanting more. But even when I’m left wanting more, it’s never a negative association. The bass just sounds so friggin amazing that I simply want more. It’s the best drug ever, and I want to jump into an ocean of XL bass and become completely engulfed in its waves. I think 2 XL’s would be about the best thing in the world. Damn you papasin, I’m now more jealous of you than ever!

Is it the last sub that I’ll own?
A week ago, and for all times prior, I would have thought this was just about the most ridiculous question ever. Who wants to live life listening to the same sub forever? I LOVE double IPA’s, but that doesn’t mean I want to drink one every night… some nights I want a triple IPA. (Haha, that was kind of a joke, but I’ll probably be the only one who thinks it’s funny.) Anyway, especially not when there is an entire market of top-notch beers and different styles. Stouts, porters, sours, saisons… you get the idea. Same thing can be said for practically anything. The Focal Flax subs come out this year that I want to try… whenever Audiomobile puts out a high-end sub, I want to be there to try it… the Gladen SQL… OnCore’s stuff… and the GZNW 12 again. Trying new and different things is simply thrilling.

With that said, I now question that sentiment that I’ve had all these years. I honestly think that if I had 2 XL’s, I would, in fact, never want to let them go. I think I could happily live with just them for the rest of my life. Now, this new opinion I’m developing may change over time, we’ll see. If anything, I’d maybe try out some new subs in the future in the same way that I’ll wear shoes during the rainy season. However, I’m a flop-flops guy throughout the majority of the year… and I now think I’m an XL guy. 

-End of FAQ-

So that’s that. I’ve now listened to Daft Punk- Random Access Memories, Caribou-Our Love, and some Jon Hopkins, Arcade Fire, James Blake, Chvrches, and some others, and I continue to be impressed. 

The other day I listened to Arcade Fire-Reflector (the song, which is also the name of the album), and the initial bass note wasn’t as loud or fun as it was with the GZNW (not all that surprising), but as I listened to the song, I started getting goosebumps. It sounded so damn good, I was caught off guard by how good it sounded, and the only way I can possible imagine it sounding any better is if I had 2 XL’s, muahaha.  It just sounded real. 

I then listened to Arcade Fire-Afterlife and Arcade Fire-Here Comes the Night. *Insert your preferred expression of awe here.* ‘Holy ****’ doesn’t even come close. Here Comes the Night blew me away. Again, I’ve never heard that song (especially the bass) sound so damn amazing. Goosebumps all over. I think my goosebumps even had goosebumps. Specific thoughts that I wanted to convey when I was listening to the song have now escaped me, so that will have to do.

Some of Jon Hopkins' songs sound off or congested on other subs that I've had. I forgot the song names, but the ones I'm referring to are very bass heavy, with constant bass grooves going the whole time. Not necessarily deep bass (although some of his are), but rather that there is so much going on in the bass region, that it sounds overlapped or slightly muddy on some subs, as if they can't keep up properly or they just get confused. Not the XL though. The XL played them perfectly.

I also played some rap/hiphop and it sounded fantastic. This thing gets DOWN. And Rob played some dubstep that he had on his phone, and my entire body, especially behind my knees, was tingling with ecstasy.

Ultimately, the XL is the perfect example and reminder of why I'm invested in car audio. It absolutely deserves all the praise that it has received on this forum. When I told my friends how much the XL cost, they looked at me with sheer confusion as if they had just found out that I was an alien from the Andromeda galaxy. They claim that they love music as much as I do, but I have doubts as to whether they will experience the awe that I just wrote about, lol... plus they know they can just listen to my car whenever they want.   It also reminded me that one’s mindset (and expectations) play a huge part in the interpretation of a sonic performance. 

Even though I've only had it for roughly one week, I'd say it's off to a pretty good start.  Whether or not I will end up getting another XL is uncertain, but it doesn’t really matter right now; I’m addicted to and enthralled with the one that I do have. It’s simply ice-cream for my ears orgasmic.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> It’s the best drug ever, and I want to jump into an ocean of XL bass and become completely engulfed in its waves. I think 2 XL’s would be about the best thing in the world. Damn you papasin, I’m now more jealous of you than ever!


This made me LOL. :laugh: 

It is addicting, isn't it?


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Cool! Can't wait for the detailed review.

JK! Sounds like it's pretty legit. I'd love to hear it sometime. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> Not much to report yet, other than the enclosure has mysteriously materialized from out of the ether.  Pictures of the allure below-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent build so far and great detail of your experience with the XL.

Is there any major reason for the bracing in the way you did it? Does it actually help in breaking up the waves? What does the BlackHole denim insulation really do that others don't?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

papasin said:


> This made me LOL. :laugh:
> 
> It is addicting, isn't it?


 



teldzc1 said:


> Can't wait for the detailed review.
> 
> JK!


:laugh:



Black Rain said:


> Excellent build so far and great detail of your experience with the XL.
> 
> Is there any major reason for the bracing in the way you did it? Does it actually help in breaking up the waves? What does the BlackHole denim insulation really do that others don't?


Thanks buddy. There's actually very little in this build that I've done all by myself, but I like to be as involved as I can, both locally and on the forum. All credit for the labor goes to my man Rob here in Clovis. I'm just just a spaceman along for the ride.  

The way the bracing was done is indeed supposed to help with breaking up the waves, at least that's what the boss man told me, hehe. As for what the Blackhole actually does that others don't... I can't really say. TOOSTUBORN2FAIL may have some input on that. It sounds like other products essentially do as well of a job as the Blackhole, but Rob had ordered a bunch of it and wanted to try it out too, so yeah. I didn't listen to the sub without the Blackhole, so I can't say for sure what effect it had on the sound. When Rob was at CES, I believe he was told that using 75% of Blackhole in a box my size would effectively *trick* it into thinking it was 1.6 - 1.7 cu ft.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> It’s simply ice-cream for my ears orgasmic.


I'll gladly trade you some ice cream for your mouth for that ice cream for your ears when you grow tired of it.


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## abusiveDAD (Jan 7, 2009)

Hoptologist said:


> Welp, just saw Interstellar in IMAX. I had been looking forward to it more than any other movie this year, Guardians of the Galaxy being a close second. So yeah, I had huge expectations going into it, which is usually a bad thing. I love Nolan, love Zimmer, love scifi/space movies, the trailer looked huge, not to mention that it currently has a 9 on IMDb and holds the 12th spot on the top250 list. In fact, my expectations have probably never been higher for any movie ever. And they were unquestionably and effortlessly exceeded.
> 
> There are several spans of moments in the film that create huge magnitudes of emotional intensity. Moments that are far greater than the sum of their parts, with the score being a major driving force in creating that emotional impact.
> 
> This is the type of movie that compels me to persistently pursue sonic ice cream and create the most immersive home theater experience that I possible can. Interstellar won't be everyone's favorite, but it definitely makes my top3. Anyway, just wanted to throw this out there.


Loved interstellar and its score, must see for a Nolan fan.
Cant go wrong with Diehard platinums, guy at my work his dad has 15 work trucks
with DH plats. Expensive but never an issue like my optima yellow top had


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

It's definitely a well built box, that said, its not possible for braces in a subwoofer box to break up standing waves, as there are none inside the box. The wavelengths are well over the size of the box. 

As for blackhole/polyfil/etc, people have shown that it has the ability to slightly improve low end response. I haven't been able to repeat those findings, but I haven't tried with a subwoofer either.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Something to try when you do get bored.


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

rton20s said:


> I'll gladly trade you some ice cream for your mouth for that ice cream for your ears when you grow tired of it.


That's what she said?


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## WhereAmEye? (Jun 17, 2013)

sirbOOm said:


> That's what she said?


I remember when I was in 8th grade lol


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## sirbOOm (Jan 24, 2013)

You started early.


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## WhereAmEye? (Jun 17, 2013)

I didn't know what that meant in 8th grade hahaha I just said it cause it was cool.

Hop, when are you gona get another 12xl??


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

rton20s said:


> I'll gladly trade you some ice cream for your mouth for that ice cream for your ears when you grow tired of it.


I'm onto your tactics, rton! One of these days you might find a taker, but not this time. 



abusiveDAD said:


> Loved interstellar and its score, must see for a Nolan fan.
> Cant go wrong with Diehard platinums, guy at my work his dad has 15 work trucks
> with DH plats. Expensive but never an issue like my optima yellow top had


Yesss, I can't wait to see what Nolan does next.



TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> ...as there are none inside the box. The wavelengths are well over the size of the box.


That's pretty much what Rob said when I first asked him about going with a wedge shape to combat standing waves/rear waves from reflecting back to the cone (are those the same thing?), since I've read numerous times that a square box is the worst shape for them. I've also read on DIYMA that even though sub boxes are too small for standing waves to fully propagate, that that doesn't mean that they don't partially form or are completely absent. How much of this affects real world sound, I've no idea. This is territory that is beyond my current understanding.

Here are a couple threads that I got this info from:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...6-does-anyone-dampen-their-sub-enclosure.html
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ks-trade/38987-shape-sub-box-does-matter.html



papasin said:


> Something to try when you do get bored.


Hehe, yeah Rob mentioned these from CES. Same price too, IIRC. I'll be moving into a house later this year, at which point I'll be able to expand my HT setup from 3.0 to 5.2. SVS and Rythmik have usually been my go-to for home subs, but we'll see.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> Hehe, yeah Rob mentioned these from CES. Same price too, IIRC. I'll be moving into a house later this year, at which point I'll be able to expand my HT setup from 3.0 to 5.2. SVS and Rythmik have usually been my go-to for home subs, but we'll see.



Why does it have to be for home use? Don't we put home audio drivers in the car all the time?  

Plus, here's an example of the Illusion C12XL for home audio use. 










Not to say that the Illusion is any slouch, but the Raven as I understand it is an upgrade in multiple areas including 3 Faraday rings (as opposed to 1 in the IA C12XL), higher sensitivity, and IIRC has even more xmax. Talking to the designer, he basically indicated he took pretty much everything he did in the Illusion, and improved upon it.

Besides, you probably won't have any problems getting someone to snag an IA C12XL in the Classifieds...or have almost unlimited ice cream if you trade with rton20s lol.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

We can definitely work out a deal on ice cream.  

The only thing I don't care for with RAVEN is the logo. Probably because I have worked in CAD software daily for over 20 years and the font they used looks like a cheap architectural font.  Otherwise, I really want to check out what they have to offer. 

Hop... time to step it up to the "improved" model. There is a virtually unending supply of free ice cream in it for you.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

^^Yeah, a $10,000 example of the Illusion C12XL for home audio use.  To be fair, that includes a tube amplifier, IIRC.



papasin said:


> unlimited ice cream if you trade with rton20s lol.


Woah, hey now, I didn't know we're talking about unlimited ice cream. That changes everything. Almost unlimited is basically unlimited, right? 


I'm not sure what a Faraday ring is, but I like the sound of it. If it indeed has more xmax and higher sensitivity, then that is something. Especially for the same price!


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

I was just glad they didn't release a C15 XL or D4 ohm version at CES, because if that was the case, I'd be eating ice cream right now.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> Woah, hey now, I didn't know we're talking about unlimited ice cream. That changes everything. Almost unlimited is basically unlimited, right?


There would most certainly be some fine print in there.  I do have a wife to contend with, after all. 



Hoptologist said:


> I was just glad they didn't release a C15 XL or D4 ohm version at CES, because if that was the case, I'd be eating ice cream right now.


Sound like I need to call Jacob and see if I can use some more ice cream to make a D4 C12XL happen.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Not to sidetrack too much, but as I've been looking at rythmik to replace my current home subwoofers, I'm curious which ones you've used and what you thought about them.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Not to sidetrack too much, but as I've been looking at rythmik to replace my current home subwoofers, I'm curious which ones you've used and what you thought about them.


Apologies in advance, lol. I don’t think I will be much help for you, but for what it’s worth,

It’s been a really long time, and in all honesty, I’ve probably fallen behind in terms of the home sub market. I briefly went on AVS the other week, and there were a bunch of companies that I haven’t even heard of. It’s been years since I’ve looked into that corner of audio, but back then, the most commonly, go-to sub companies were SVS, HSU, Rythmik, Epik, and Elemental Designs. The latter 2 are now gone, but the first 3 seem to still be doing very well. 

I actually haven’t personally owned any Rythmiks, but they were always my #2 choice. I had an entry level SVS PB10-NSD, and a mid-level SVS 12” (cylindrical, forgot the model #). I used the PB10 in my bedroom and then an office, and it always did super well, until I tried it in a huge living room with a 20 or so foot ceiling that opened up to the second story. Uneven bass, galore. No matter how many crawl searches I did, I could never find a good spot for the sub in that room. Bass was near nonexistent sitting down, but when you stood up, it sounded fairly nice. Sigh.

That’s when I got the 12” cylinder SVS, which performed much better than the PB10 (which went back to the bedroom), but the room was still a nightmare and we moved soon so I sold the sub. I kept the PB10 until about 2 years ago.

I did have the chance to audition a Rythmik F15 and F12 near Los Angeles sometime around 2010 or 2011. They both sounded phenomenal, but they were in well treated rooms that were fairly closed off. I can’t remember any specific details about them, though. I think those models have since gone through a couple amp upgrades on the Rythmik site anyway, but you can’t really go wrong with Rythmik, or SVS for that matter. 

When I do my home audio upgrades, I’m for sure going to opt for dual subs. Uneven bass and room nulls drive me crazy! Which Rythmik model(s) are you considering?


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## abusiveDAD (Jan 7, 2009)

2 subs well worth it . Imo


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> ^^Yeah, a $10,000 example of the Illusion C12XL for home audio use.  To be fair, that includes a tube amplifier, IIRC.



Shucks. You probably prefer the upgraded one then.  :laugh:












Hoptologist said:


> I'm not sure what a Faraday ring is, but I like the sound of it.



I'm probably going to butcher this, so I am open to correction to those that have more knowledge on speaker design if I don't have this quite right...but my understanding is this is similar if not identical to a shorting ring, which one of the things it does is it helps lower inductance. By using multiple rings, I believe (and again I could be off on this so putting flame suit on) the intent was to allow the Raven to play well into the lower midrange, so that it can serve as a sub and/or midwoofer.



Hoptologist said:


> I was just glad they didn't release a C15 XL or D4 ohm version at CES, because if that was the case, I'd be eating ice cream right now.



There is a third size IA XL that may join the line up shortly is what I was told. I'm looking forward to it myself.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

papasin said:


> Shucks. You probably prefer the upgraded one then.  :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info, lol about the flame suit, I'd like a pic of you in it. 

A third XL... It better be an 8, lol. Then again, dual 8's could be real fun...oh geez.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I've been looking at two sets of f12g's using rythmik's hypex based h800 amps. Basically run them in dual opposed slot loaded enclosures, with one in each inverted to help cancel 2nd order distortion if it's quiet enough from the back. Dual opposed should help cancel vibration as well, since my turntable stand will be near one of them. 

Mostly looking at them because of the favorable klippel review Erin did on them, although I'm still a ways off from getting them. Gotta knock out a wall in the house first.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

papasin said:


> There is a third size IA XL that may join the line up shortly is what I was told. I'm looking forward to it myself.





Hoptologist said:


> A third XL... It better be an 8, lol. Then again, dual 8's could be real fun...oh geez.


I have absolutely no inside information, but my money would be on an 8 as well. Though the basket that is used in the XL line is available in both an 8" and 15" model.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Probably right, an 8 is an easier sell than a 15.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

One thing that I thought was odd with the XL was that there wasn't any foam/rubber lining on the back of the trim ring gasket where it meets the enclosure cutout to ensure a perfect seal between sub and box.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

MrsPapasin's did IIRC, but my pair do not. Can't remember for sure for our C10XL in the van.

I keep some of this handy and used it for mine. I find them useful not just for subs, but also for midbasses.

Parts Express Speaker Gasketing Tape 1/8" x 3/8" x 50 ft. Roll


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

SO,

I think I've come down from my XL high. Not saying it's going to the classifieds anytime soon, but I do wish overall that it had more oomph. Oh ok, just buy another then, right? If only life were that easy. 

The idea of having a $2k subwoofer setup is a little unsettling to me, especially when I *think* I could be as happy with 1 GZNW, for example. Also, 2 XL's on 1400 RMS? Sounds like I'd be robbing them of their potential. So now we're talking about another XL, a new amp, and possibly more electrical upgrades. If they ever made a D4 ohm version, I could see myself getting 2 in the future, when I have a well-paying job... but if I told you guys how much income I make in a year right now, you guys would probably ask me wtf I'm doing with even one XL, lol. But I don't go to clubs, or fancy restaurants, or engage in the typical American consumerism. I research for DAYS, wait for Slickdeals, and try to make sure to get the best value in everything I buy. That leaves me room for beer, audio, and sushi. 

Anyway, there's no doubt that having a single XL is a phenomenal thing. Sometimes it sounds magical... sometimes I wish it had more magic. It doesn't defy physics, but it is pretty unique, and it's probably the best sounding sub I've ever heard thus far, with the ported GZNW being a super, super, super close second (and definitely my favorite for fun), and my forward-facing dual Arc Black 12's being the third. 

So I'll continue to enjoy the hell out of the XL, but I won't be packing up my bags and diverting my attention away from others subs. My relationship with it will definitely stay exclusive for now, but not forever. There's still many that I want to try (and try again), and try them I shall.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Just let me know when you're up for an ice cream trade.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Hoptologist said:


> SO,
> 
> I think I've come down from my XL high. Not saying it's going to the classifieds anytime soon, but I do wish overall that it had more oomph. Oh ok, just buy another then, right? If only life were that easy.
> 
> ...


Upfront sub... Won't need to buy a second one 

Kelvin


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Upfront sub... Won't need to buy a second one
> 
> Kelvin


Quit giving the man ideas!


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## WhereAmEye? (Jun 17, 2013)

rton20s said:


> Quit giving the man ideas!


Don't think I've seen an upfront sub in a 7th gen Accord...he would be the first to do it in that car...and it seems to be the go to position for a lot of people...

Oh you said *quit* giving ideas, my bad


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

subwoofery said:


> Upfront sub... Won't need to buy a second one
> 
> Kelvin


Yeah, David, just point that thing right at your face and I don't think you'll have any complaints:laugh:

I haven't heard of anyone doing this but have you thought about putting it in a ported enclosure to get the output you're looking for?


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

MrsPapasin and darrenforreal are the two folks that I know of that have pulled off a C12XL up front in the passenger footwell. I have had extensive seat time in one of the two cars and it definitely is incredibly impressive. But if sheer output is the goal, the two in my trunk still trumps the single in both of their vehicles. The pair of 8s also in my kicks though help.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

See. Don't spend that kind of money for two C12XLs in your trunk, it is too expensive. Don't attempt a ported enclosure, everyone runs the C12XL sealed. Don't attempt a passenger foot well enclosure, your girlfriend won't have enough leg room. Do attempt to trade the C12XL for lots and lots of ice cream, you like ice cream and I can make it with beer. 

Seriously, you've gotten some pretty good suggestions for when you truly grow bored of your current installation.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Did you get the Flax installed as well? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Whoa, apparently I missed quite a few thread notifications here. I'm so out of it right now, my hands look unusually big typing on my laptop keyboard, if that tells you anything... must be the way the light from the screen is reflecting on them. Anyway, I'm only under the influence of one substance, and that would be alcohol. Specifically, beer. Flew to Portland on Thursday, and since then, I feel like we've drunk and eaten our way through the city in style. My not-so-reliable, current state of mind tells me that we've visited 14 breweries, many delicious eateries, OMSI, and some other pretty cool landmarks. We just drove (yeah I know...but our driver was sufficiently sober, and this was the only day we didn't rely on public trans) back to the hotel here at the Paramount in downtown Portland, parked in this parking garage next door since our hotel charges $30/night valet only (psshh), and on the way from the parking garage to the lobby, we saw an interesting bum fight commence, of which the bum being *lazily and drunkenly smacked by the second bum* called out for help. Half amusing, half pathetic. Calling it a fight is giving it way too much credit. I yelled the cops were on their way, as my gf informed the front desk, who actually called the cops. The concierge glanced over at his shift partner and gave him the "it's your turn look." Apparently, a not-so-unusual occurrence here in downtown, and an appropriately casual ending to a fantastic trip. Don't get me wrong, downtown Portland is beautiful, and it's not like there is an abundance of homeless here, but there are a few and they do keep to themselves...even when fighting... Overall, it reminds me of SF, but much cleaner and more modern. Anyway, it's super late, I need to go to sleep, and I realize there are no spaces in this ramble. Sorry. Here's one-

I haven't dismissed the idea of trying the XL ported. I know there's one guy on DIYMA who has ported his 10... I forgot who... but I bookmarked his post so that I can see what he thinks now that it's been a while.

I'm not sure 1 12" upfront would be enough for me.  Although it would be sweet to have, at least for a while. Maybe one upfront and one rear...? ;D

We flew here... my car is at the shop back in Clovis, where I'm hoping some progress is being made on my flax install. 

I'll update in a few days... flying back tomorrow. Portland is an awesome place. So much good food, beer, sights, people, and I've especially been digging the rain. Of course, as usual, the weekend we left town is the weekend it actually rained back home. Like, the only weekend it has rained all year. So typical. 

I'll be posting all the breweries/pics we went to in the beer thread on here if anyone's interested. Not a bad post for being pretty drunk at 4am, right? This feels more like a journal entry than a car audio post, but I'm far too lazy to edit anything out that I've already written, so I'm just going to post this now and then goto sleep...


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

I've been averaging about 2 albums / day listening in my car with the XL. Today it was Ryan Hemsworth and Balam Acab. Balam Acab - Wander/Wonder, to be exact. This album showcases the XL's strength, and left me feeling sonically satiated. The bass was deep, engulfing, and sleek. Another album that delivers that same level of bass bliss is Caribou - Our Love. The bass is strong, visceral, and dynamic. 

But? 

But... it's becoming somewhat of a rare occasion where I finish listening to an album and feel that my thirst for ice-cream bass has been absolutely quenched. And I hate admitting that, because I'm rooting so hard for this sub to be "the one." After a dispiriting first encounter with it, and then believing I had struck gold in the subsequent few weeks, I'm now teeter-tottering between various degrees of nirvana and disillusionment. 

And... after listening to Rob's car with 2 XL's, I think that I would need 3 XL's to be 100% thrilled in 100% of my music library. Nope, that wasn't a joke! /runs back into the basshead closet where there is free beer and strawberry cheesecake.

/pokes head out. Seriously though, 3 XL's would likely be perma-bliss, but I could never spend that much. I think I spoiled myself listening to that GZNW for those couple weeks. So, there might or might not be a few XL's popping up in the classifieds in the next few weeks. I know, ridiculous. /buries head back in closet

So what do you guys think... 1 Gladen SQL 15 or 2 Focal Flax P30F 12's?


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

SQL 15...I admire your courage in this post.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Hey Blue  

Sometimes I think I need to go to the car audio loony bin. Or an intervention for basshead rehab so I could come back and just be happy with what I have. Maybe I'm already too far gone. :wacky::wacko:

Getting the output I want isn't the hard part. I'm sure a few DC Level 2's would do the job, but I'd be selling them the second its soundwaves hit my eardrum :laugh: (apologies if anyone reading this is really into DC Level 2). The hard part is getting the output I want to sound how I want it to sound, all within a realistic monetary range. 

I would be very, very, very happy with 2 XL's. Maybe not 100%, but probably 90% now that I think about it. I could probably swing another XL if that was the end of it, but now we're talking 2 woofers sealed...electrical limitations -> electrical upgrades -> dif amp... that story again. Blah blah. Not gonna happen. 

I know I'd be happy running 1 ported GZNW again, but I'm going to take the scenic route to it. I'm definitely going to try the Gladen SQL and Focal P30F along the way, because, curiosity. But, no rush. I have an Illusion XL, and I'll be damned if I'm not going to spend more time with it first. 

Now to go do something productive, since I can't sleep. (And in case there's any confusion, by productive I mean explore Gladen SQL threads and watch the second episode of Better Call Saul)


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

JBL GTI's. 12's ported or 15's IB. I think that's what you need. Once a basshead, always a basshead!


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## WhereAmEye? (Jun 17, 2013)

You should try two new idmax 15's ib. Ask dblevel how he likes his (He has the same car).


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Hop, I have an untested theory that it is better to have too much Bass that needs to be tamed, than to have too little. I felt that way with my Ultimo 12...it wasn't designed to do what I thought it could. I've heard the XL-12 and it's def better than the Ultimo was, but I too would need or want multiples if I went that route.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> I would be very, very, very happy with 2 XL's. Maybe not 100%, but probably 90% now that I think about it. I could probably swing another XL if that was the end of it, but now we're talking 2 woofers sealed...electrical limitations -> electrical upgrades -> dif amp... that story again. Blah blah. Not gonna happen.



As an FYI, the only electrical upgrades in my car is an XS Power D3400 (AGM battery) and the Big 3. No second battery, no HO alternator, etc. A Mosconi Zero 3 is powering the dual C12 XLs at up to 1850W and I have zero issues with dimming or anything of that sort. I also am running a pair of Zapco 150.4-LEs, with four of those channels bridged at up to 500W a pair to my 8s. So all amps class A/B and I have not run into any electrical limitations nor feel a requirement for any further electrical upgrades with the gear in the smaller Honda sibling.

Just food for thought.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

teldzc1 said:


> JBL GTI's. 12's ported or 15's IB. I think that's what you need. Once a basshead, always a basshead!





WhereAmEye? said:


> You should try two new idmax 15's ib. Ask dblevel how he likes his (He has the same car).


I'd love to hear the JBL GTi. And trying IB is definitely on my bucket list. I really need to meet up with BuickGN to hear his setup (he also has 2 IDMAX 15's IB). I've been saying that for what feels like years now, lol. Speaking of which, where has he been...



Bluenote said:


> Hop, I have an untested theory that it is better to have too much Bass that needs to be tamed, than to have too little. I felt that way with my Ultimo 12...it wasn't designed to do what I thought it could. I've heard the XL-12 and it's def better than the Ultimo was, but I too would need or want multiples if I went that route.


A sound theory if I've ever heard one. 



papasin said:


> As an FYI, the only electrical upgrades in my car is an XS Power D3400 (AGM battery) and the Big 3. No second battery, no HO alternator, etc. A Mosconi Zero 3 is powering the dual C12 XLs at up to 1850W and I have zero issues with dimming or anything of that sort. I also am running a pair of Zapco 150.4-LEs, with four of those channels bridged at up to 500W a pair to my 8s. So all amps class A/B and I have not run into any electrical limitations nor feel a requirement for any further electrical upgrades with the gear in the smaller Honda sibling.
> 
> Just food for thought.


papasin, how dare thee defy my hypothetical reasoning with your real-world experience! lol. Surely your stock alternator has more amperage than mine... and um, I'd still want a new amp, because I wouldn't want to run both at only 1400 rms on my 2500.1... if anything I'd like to give 1400 rms to my 1... and uhh... /thinking of more excuses


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I think when it is time for a change, I would be looking to a 15" driver if I were you. It might help satisfy that desire for more output. 

You might also take a look at the SQ 12 that Jacob at Sundown has been working on. It looks pretty interesting, but the price point is going to be right up there with the C12XL.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

rton20s said:


> I think when it is time for a change, I would be looking to a 15" driver if I were you. It might help satisfy that desire for more output.
> 
> You might also take a look at the SQ 12 that Jacob at Sundown has been working on. It looks pretty interesting, but the price point is going to be right up there with the C12XL.


Thanks for the heads up, wasn't aware of that. Just sub'd.


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## WhereAmEye? (Jun 17, 2013)

Hoptologist said:


> Thanks for the heads up, wasn't aware of that. Just sub'd.


Just to follow this up, wasn't Jacob working on an sq component set?


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

The sundown or the new Stereo Integrity HST 12 or 15. 2500 watts might be enough for one of those


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

That HST 12 looks like a BEAST. No info on the HST 15 yet I guess. Know of anyone on here that is planning to run one of those in a car?


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

I think you should be the guy. Who better than a guy that isn't satisfied with the output of a C12XL? Lol


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

2 of those might be enough! So heavy though... I'd have to take the decrease in gas mileage into account of the overall price


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I think nick said those hst's would have some huge response peaks in a car. 


You could do 4 si bm mkv's. Same price as 2 xl's, same linear excursion, half the box requirements.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I think nick said those hst's would have some huge response peaks in a car.
> 
> 
> You could do 4 si bm mkv's. Same price as 2 xl's, same linear excursion, half the box requirements.


There is a man who is thinking ahead. I'd bet those MkVs are out before the Sundown SQ 12.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Since I'm laid up for the next two days on bed rest, lots of time to give bad ideas lol.

Like 6 or 8 of the MkV's. I know you can fit 8 in an accord trunk lol.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Save him some money... two in the passenger footwell.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Lol, I half want another neon, simply because the dash is HUGE, and I _could_ fit two of them in the dash. And 8's in the kicks. And still have room for some point sources in the dash.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

WhereAmEye? said:


> You should try two new idmax 15's ib. Ask dblevel how he likes his (He has the same car).


Sooooo, I kind of really want to try an IB setup, with 2 15's (or 12's, only for budget reasons). I just decided this right now, but it's been swimming around my mind for a few days. I've just had it in my mind this whole time that IB wouldn't be loud enough for me. Anyone here have IB experience?

As far as I'm concerned, the output preference spectrum goes something like this:
sq purist --> sq plus --> sql --> bass head --> spl head --> omg wtf

I'd say I'm somewhere between sql and bass head, depending on who you talk to. Would a dual sub IB setup get me there?

The current plan is still to do a forward-facing ported setup, but, just wondering. Also, felt a little weird finally selling my XL. I always feel weird selling my things. I was really weirdly bummed after selling my IDMAX since I had such good times with it and had it for so long. Is that just me?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

OK, I had to do it. I loaded up the C12XL in a 1 CF enclosure into WinISD and compared it to a pair of Boston Acoustic G215-44s IB (estimated 14 cf). You can still find them on Amazon for $70 a piece! 

Giving each enough power to reach Xmax with only a subsonic for protection (as low as 10 Hz) the Bostons are louder across the board and play flatter. They are up more than 2 dB @ 80 Hz and more than 9 dB @ 20 Hz. 

The Bostons only need 450 watts to reach Xmax when IB whereas the C12XL needs 1100 watts. The Illusion would hit Xmech with 2100 watts while the Bostons (if I read the spec correctly) would hit Xmech at 2300 watts. The output difference is even higher at Xmech with the Bostons having a 6-13 dB advantage. 

You know what they say, there is no replacement for displacement. 

For $140 Plus the cost of building a baffle, I think it would be worth it to experiment.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

rton20s said:


> OK, I had to do it. I loaded up the C12XL in a 1 CF enclosure into WinISD and compared it to a pair of Boston Acoustic G215-44s IB (estimated 14 cf). You can still find them on Amazon for $70 a piece!
> 
> Giving each enough power to reach Xmax with only a subsonic for protection (as low as 10 Hz) the Bostons are louder across the board and play flatter. They are up more than 2 dB @ 80 Hz and more than 9 dB @ 20 Hz.
> 
> ...


I always appreciate your leet modeling skillz, you sir are a model modeler. I've attempted some model dabbling in the past - sometimes successful - but I feel that more times than not, I end up with some weird looking plots. How would cabin gain/transfer function effect the XL's plot though? And how does IB change the transfer function compared to a rear-facing enclosure?

The audio snob in me wants to say "$70 subwoofer? No way it can sound good" but man, what a cheap and sweet way to experience IB. Very tempting. Looks like there is only 1 left at this time on Amazon though.

I'm really hooked on forward-facing orientations right now, like as in my next setup. As you know, I'm a near-basshead - or at least a little basshead lives somewhere inside my body - so the free output of rear-facing is nice and all, but my loathe for trunk rattles obliterates all pleasure I get from rear-facing. And I'm done chasing rattles, I've invested enough time and money chasing down and deadening all the panels in my trunk. Trunk:99, Me:-1. 

So, forward-facing. The sweet, buttery smooth bass. I can't imagine any other way to describe it. It just gives me a warm and fuzzy sensation, like fluffy little bunny rabbits doing cartwheels on the first day of Spring while an audience of purring kittens drinks milk from straws and cheers them on. Trunk sealed off, no more trunk rattles to deal with, happy me. But to make up for the lack of transfer function, I'll need a monster of a sub.


----------



## gregerst22 (Dec 18, 2012)

Hoptologist said:


> Sooooo, I kind of really want to try an IB setup, with 2 15's (or 12's, only for budget reasons). I just decided this right now, but it's been swimming around my mind for a few days. I've just had it in my mind this whole time that IB wouldn't be loud enough for me. Anyone here have IB experience?
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, the output preference spectrum goes something like this:
> sq purist --> sq plus --> sql --> bass head --> spl head --> omg wtf
> ...


I can't really say if a pair of 15's would be enough for you. But I can tell you with the pair of SBP15's i have it can come close to completely overpowering my frontstage which isn't anemic by any means. I'm pushing over 500w to each midbass and 250 to midrange and tweeters. If these subs had any more output it would be almost pointless for me. I ran a single Max15 ib before this and as far as I could tell it had nearly the same amount of output for one woofer. I would think a pair with 1200w on each should satisfy almost any basshead and sound real good doing it.


----------



## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

gregerst22 said:


> I can't really say if a pair of 15's would be enough for you. But I can tell you with the pair of SBP15's i have it can come close to completely overpowering my frontstage which isn't anemic by any means. I'm pushing over 500w to each midbass and 250 to midrange and tweeters. If these subs had any more output it would be almost pointless for me. I ran a single Max15 ib before this and as far as I could tell it had nearly the same amount of output for one woofer. I would think a pair with 1200w on each should satisfy almost any basshead and sound real good doing it.


Nice. I think 2 Max 15's would do the trick. I really wish I could get a hold of BuickGN and hear his car since that's what he runs. I'd have to wait for a couple to pop up in the classifieds though, couldn't swing 2 new ones. Maybe when the OnCore XW15's are released, there will be an influx of Max 15 for sale threads. Though, I'd probably prefer to try the XW15's too. New factor. Lots of intrigue. 

Planning what kind of sub setup I want to succeed my next sub setup with, when I haven't even begun to set up my next sub setup. I hope I'm not the only one who does this. I also hope someday to be able to go more than 6 months without changing subs, since that seems to be my current average lol.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Honestly, I don't know enough about transfer function or cabin gain to say for certain how it would affect each of the scenarios I ran for you (Boston IB vs Illusion in 1 cf) or if subwoofer orientation affects cabin gain. It should provide the same sort of "boost" to either scenario as it is based on the vehicle. Looking at the graphs though, the Boston begins rolling off lower (without cabin gain/transfer function applied) at around 50 Hz, whereas the Illusion begins rolling off a bit higher around 60 Hz. The roll-off on the Boston is also shallower maxing out around 8 dB/octave from 40 Hz - 20 Hz whereas the Illusion is right at 13 dB/octave in the same range. 

Also, if the Bostons are not available, I would also consider the JBL GTO1514D for a lower cost IB option. The results are very similar to the Bostons. A slightly shallower roll-off and within a fraction of a dB in output across the board at Xmax. Bumping the subsonic up slightly (15-20Hz) could allow you to provide a bit more power with a steeper roll-off on the very bottom end in exchange for more output with any of the drivers IB.


----------



## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Honestly, I don't know enough about transfer function or cabin gain to say for certain how it would affect each of the scenarios I ran for you (Boston IB vs Illusion in 1 cf) or if subwoofer orientation affects cabin gain.


See post here from a team member's thread (post by Hanatsu) on some testing on subwoofer orientation in a trunk.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2213531-post292.html


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks Richard. I figured there would be some difference, especially at a specific listening position. But to hypothesize as to how a given driver location and orientation will affect transfer function is well beyond my level of "expertise." 

Heck, all I really know is which numbers to shove into which box on WinISD.


----------



## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Missed this. Hanatsu doesn't specify which color is which orientation though and he mentioned 4 orientations but there's only 3 colors. I could be missing something here. However, it seems that it doesn't really matter much - they are pretty similar until 80 Hz. In a way that makes me happy. There is just something so magical, warm, and fuzzy about forward-facing.


----------



## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

In other news, Flax is installed! Just kidding, of course.  

I did however listen to a vehicle that Rob finished with the Focal KRX2 and 2 DD 9515's in a cut-through orientation in a single cab truck. 

I didn't really know what to expect. Ok, I kind of expected the KRX2 to sound bright and slightly harsh on normal music, which is what I've "learned" they sound like from reading about them here. Nope, they were the smoothest sounding speakers I've ever heard in a vehicle. Liquidy smoothness. I was dumbfounded. And it wasn't all tuning either, the customer had no DSP. The soundstage was huge as well in all directions. Super impressive. 

The bass, which might surprise some people on the forum, had excellent SQ as well. Of course it could get ridiculously loud, like wtf-level-loud, but thankfully he didn't turn it up that loud for me. He did for the FedEx guy though, lol. But yeah, at lower volumes and volumes that I like, it was just excellent. Deep, articulate, effortless, and zero toneyness. Loved it.


----------



## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

Hoptologist said:


> In other news, Flax is installed! Just kidding, of course.
> 
> I did however listen to a vehicle that Rob finished with the Focal KRX2 and 2 DD 9515's in a cut-through orientation in a single cab truck.
> 
> ...


Must have been the speaker cables. 


...

What truck and install locations?
I've heard plenty of focals not sound harsh, and rob has a good ear.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

mrpeabody said:


> Must have been the speaker cables.
> 
> 
> ...
> ...


Haha. He didn't even use any speaker cables for this install, he said all that was needed for them to play was some imagination, so I tried and oh boy, I couldn't imagine them sounding any smoother! 

I'm real bad with trucks. I have one-truck-fits-all memory. Single cab Chevy sounds right, but I could have easily just heard that on TV tonight.

The mids were in the doors and the tweeters were surface mounted to the apillars pointing to the dome light in their angle mounting brackets. For being so simple it looked real nice and clean. 

Before today the highest level focals I had heard were the flax. I'd read on here that the krx series is typically bright and aggressive sounding, so that's what I was expecting. Was the complete opposite. They weren't laid back, but they were just super smooth and detailed. Can't imagine anyone thinking that setup has even a hint of harshness. And I'm pretty sensitive to bright drivers/sibilance/treble that oversteps its boundaries. But of course, different installs and different vehicles sound different. 

Still, it was fun to have my perception of reality challenged, even if it was something as insignificant as a French speaker's sonic signature.


----------



## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Rumors cloud people's judgment so easily. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

teldzc1 said:


> Rumors cloud people's judgment so easily.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


Yep and when hearing Focal, people tend to think: "ouch..."  :laugh:

Kelvin


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I think most people's experience with Focal (including my own initial experience) is on a soundboard with the tweeter right in your face and on axis. Judging by those experiences alone, I would never choose Focal. Hearing the same set installed in a car tends to be a completely different experience. And of course, the Utopia BE is an entirely different animal.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

I paid $10 for an 18x18x18 box at the UPS store today.


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## stock ej8 (Aug 10, 2011)

?? I thought they are free?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Only in my dreams. I called my nearest Postal Annex and they sell them for $7. When did box prices get so high? Time to open up a box store and get rich, lol.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

This is exactly all I've been doing this last week. Finally got my highest score just now and I feel like I can finally continue living my life.


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## stock ej8 (Aug 10, 2011)

lol 

hey do you know anyone in the bay area that tunes? I need massive help.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

stock ej8 said:


> lol
> 
> hey do you know anyone in the bay area that tunes? I need massive help.


I only know of Bing and JOey at simplicityinsound in Milpitas, but I think they have a long wait of appointments so I'm not sure if that's something they could get you in for anytime soon, but they may be able to at least refer you to another reputable shop or tuner.


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

Hoptologist said:


> I only know of Bing and JOey at simplicityinsound in Milpitas, but I think they have a long wait of appointments so I'm not sure if that's something they could get you in for anytime soon, but they may be able to at least refer you to another reputable shop or tuner.


Those are two of the best guys in this business. Take your vehicle down to them and I bet they will take a listen and give you many tips you can try out. Bing might try to sell you a bunch of better stuff too tho. lol. They do carry some of the best stuff too. Wish they were not a 2 day's solid drive from here.


----------



## stock ej8 (Aug 10, 2011)

james2266 said:


> Those are two of the best guys in this business. Take your vehicle down to them and I bet they will take a listen and give you many tips you can try out. Bing might try to sell you a bunch of better stuff too tho. lol. They do carry some of the best stuff too. Wish they were not a 2 day's solid drive from here.


Yeah I'm glad I'm only 15 mins drive from their shop. Maybe I'll ask JOey see what he says.


----------



## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

papasin said:


> Without grills:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I bet this sounds very nice!


----------



## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Arete said:


> I bet this sounds very nice!


Thanks. I haven't changed this part of my build since 2013 along with the 8s in my kicks and the H800. I would say those three things have been the constant, with other aspects evolving and continually improving. I'm contemplating making the drive back to AI in a couple weekends, to support my teammate and see if Hop wants to take another listen.


----------



## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

Hoptologist said:


> More pics...
> 
> Engine power upgrades:
> 
> ...



This is EXACTLY how I want to do mine. Looks great man. Thanks for sharing these pix. I'm saving a few for my future build since we have the same car. Great reference tool. Did you play around a bit with the tweeter location or had you planned on this spot prior to starting? You may have covered this in this log, i apologize I'm guilty of just looking at the pictures. ;-)


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

stock ej8 said:


> lol
> 
> hey do you know anyone in the bay area that tunes? I need massive help.


It might also be worth PMing Lycancatt here on DIYMA. I've heard he does some pretty nice tuning work and is in the San Jose area if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## stock ej8 (Aug 10, 2011)

rton, thank you for the info! is he doing it independently or is he at a shop?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Arete said:


> This is EXACTLY how I want to do mine. Looks great man. Thanks for sharing these pix. I'm saving a few for my future build since we have the same car. Great reference tool. Did you play around a bit with the tweeter location or had you planned on this spot prior to starting? You may have covered this in this log, i apologize I'm guilty of just looking at the pictures. ;-)


Kind of planned it there, I pretty much left it up to my installer though. I had different tweeters in the same spot in my last car too. I find it to be a great compromise between depth and width. I won't have the Black components for much longer. Going to Tahoe Lake this weekend and I'm planning to leave my car at the shop so that he can get started on the Flax 3-ways.


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## stock ej8 (Aug 10, 2011)

Hop, weren't you going to grab a midrange last time I saw you?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

stock ej8 said:


> rton, thank you for the info! is he doing it independently or is he at a shop?


His name is Mike and he is independent. You'll likely have to go to him. He is blind which can be somewhat limiting on his travel options.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> Going to Tahoe Lake this weekend and I'm planning to leave my car at the shop so that he can get started on the Flax 3-ways.


I don't believe it. 

Whether you get them installed or not, you should come out to the comp at AI on the 13th.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

stock ej8 said:


> Hop, weren't you going to grab a midrange last time I saw you?


Yeah I wanted to get the Black 4.0 but they are just so huge! I made cardboard models and played around with them and well, they're just so huge lol. I'm kind of bored anyway and it will be fun to have new speakers, plus the Flax midrange is nice and small.



rton20s said:


> I don't believe it.
> 
> Whether you get them installed or not, you should come out to the comp at AI on the 13th.


Lol, I can't imagine why...you must have trust issues or something.


----------



## WhereAmEye? (Jun 17, 2013)

Any updates?


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

WhereAmEye? said:


> Any updates?












:sad:


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## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

Time to bang out some enclosures for your flax goodies.

Just finished my first set of dash pods, wasn't too bad.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

You guys with the easy big-3 cars!!! This is simply too doggone easy!









You don't want to know what I had to do to get to my Si alternator.. It was less than fun.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Haha Babs


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

We just moved into a house in July and now that we've gotten the stuff that my gf wants (refrigerator, dining room table, decorations), it's time to get what's really important, a sub. I've been home-subless for way too long. Budget is roughly $1000, and the best performance/dollar is currently the Reaction Audio Echo-15 here Echo 15 – Reaction Audio

I'd prefer dual subs on opposing walls, but I'd rather get 1 nice sub than 2 "okay" subs. That is, unless I go the DIY route and get 2 used IDMAX 12's or something. I'm just so clueless when it comes to home mono amps and not sure I really feel like putting in the research to find out. Ahhhhrhrhhh, so yeah that's what I've been doing.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> We just moved into a house in July and now that we've gotten the stuff that my gf wants (refrigerator, dining room table, decorations), it's time to get what's really important, a sub. I've been home-subless for way too long. Budget is roughly $1000, and the best performance/dollar is currently the Reaction Audio Echo-15 here Echo 15 – Reaction Audio
> 
> I'd prefer dual subs on opposing walls, but I'd rather get 1 nice sub than 2 "okay" subs. That is, unless I go the DIY route and get 2 used IDMAX 12's or something. I'm just so clueless when it comes to home mono amps and not sure I really feel like putting in the research to find out. Ahhhhrhrhhh, so yeah that's what I've been doing.


Not to hijack. But I do have a W15GTi MkII that is looking for a good home.


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

^ that's what I was thinking. That would be an I incredible ht sub! I'm thinking about using one of mine for that purpose


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

rton20s said:


> Not to hijack. But I do have a W15GTi MkII that is looking for a good home.


Oh man, thank you for hijacking, and please feel free to hijack away in the future! I remember reading that you got a JBL GTi from some local deal a little while back, but I thought it was a 12" for some reason. I'm very interested, Dustin. Not for home (well okay for home too) but mainly for a future IB setup. How would you rate its condition?

I've been thinking about IB for a VERY long time now, and I know that the JBL GTi's make great IB woofers. I'd probably do two, and I'm sure I could find another if I keep my eyes peeled. 

I've just never heard an IB setup, and I'm worried if it would be enough for this basshead  <----. I mean, I absolutely love super deep (25-35 hz) tactile sub-bass...like movie effects level sub-bass... well you heard when I had the GZNW 12X. On some of those songs that I played, the bass was just so deep and visceral, like you could feel it down to your toes. Did I mention that my favorite bass is the deep kind?

I just don't know if IB would satisfy that itch, but I figure 2 15's would be my best shot. I wonder if BuickGN is planning a trip to Fresno anytime soon. Can I tag him here? @BuickGN Does that work? Wonder if I sent him a few tracks if he could give me his impressions. 

I just can't do rear-facing subs anymore. The trunk rattles drive me INSANE, and I don't think any amount of sound deadening would get rid of them. I talked about it a while ago, but the two metal panels on my trunk lid flap against each other, and apart from getting them re-welded together, I think it's a lost cause. 

I do currently have a new setup in my car as of yesterday. I'm reserving my opinion until the sub breaks in and I have Rob tune/EQ it. It's a forward-facing ported setup, and from the driver seat it sounds VERY visceral and the lows are great. No trunk rattles either, WOOHOO. But I sat in the back seat while playing some songs, and it sounds very peaky back there, not sure if peaky is the right word, maybe resonate-y would be better. But anyhow, now that I have this sub setup to play around with, I don't feel so bad thinking about what I want to do next (which would be the IB setup) lol.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Golden Ear said:


> ^ that's what I was thinking. That would be an I incredible ht sub! I'm thinking about using one of mine for that purpose


If I did do that, what amp would you use? If I used a car audio mono amp, then I have to deal with getting a power converter. Lots of people on AVSForum recommend the Behringer iNUKE NU6000, but I'm not convinced. It doesn't have a dedicated RCA/LFE port for connecting to my AVR, and so I think people use some sort of XLR to RCA converter box or something. I'm not sure. And other home amps just seem super expensive compared to good car audio mono amps. If I had the money, I'd get a JTR Captivator 1400. His subs are considered to be of the best of the best. In the meantime, the Reaction Audio Echo-15 is very tempting.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> Oh man, thank you for hijacking, and please feel free to hijack away in the future! I remember reading that you got a JBL GTi from some local deal a little while back, but I thought it was a 12" for some reason. I'm very interested, Dustin. Not for home (well okay for home too) but mainly for a future IB setup. How would you rate its condition?
> 
> I've been thinking about IB for a VERY long time now, and I know that the JBL GTi's make great IB woofers. I'd probably do two, and I'm sure I could find another if I keep my eyes peeled.
> 
> ...


Shoot me a PM or a text. I could bring the sub up on Sunday. I had a pair, but I sold the other one to another DIYMA member in Fresno. I'm not sure if he has done anything with it yet, so you might even be able to get him to give up the other one.


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Hoptologist said:


> If I did do that, what amp would you use? If I used a car audio mono amp, then I have to deal with getting a power converter. Lots of people on AVSForum recommend the Behringer iNUKE NU6000, but I'm not convinced. It doesn't have a dedicated RCA/LFE port for connecting to my AVR, and so I think people use some sort of XLR to RCA converter box or something. I'm not sure. And other home amps just seem super expensive compared to good car audio mono amps. If I had the money, I'd get a JTR Captivator 1400. His subs are considered to be of the best of the best. In the meantime, the Reaction Audio Echo-15 is very tempting.


Something like the Crown XLS2000 should do nicely. I picked up a 1500 for a pair of speakers and it sounds good. Gotta keep it JBL


----------



## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Not sure if anyone has heard of JTR for home audio, but he's planning to release an "affordable" sub to compete with Reaction Audio, Power Sound Audio, HSU, etc. It'll be $1099 for the preorder price, and it's so tempting. JTR SpeakersÂ*|Â* Captivator 118HT

I've pretty much been spending equal time on DIYMA, Head-Fi, and AVS lately. Having an equal (okay car audio is still my #1) interest in all forms of audio is exhausting and stressing lol. 

In other news, the Flax install process has begun. I know, I know... :rimshot: :snore: But for real this time, really! I'm moving on up! :scholar:


----------



## mrpeabody (May 26, 2010)

Hoptologist said:


> In other news, the Flax install process has begun. I know, I know... :rimshot: :snore: But for real this time, really! I'm moving on up! :scholar:


Woo sweet. We'll have to swap demos when it's done.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Flax 3-ways? What Flax 3-ways? Oh, right, those Flax 3-ways. Yeah, they are still sitting in the box. I've been unemployed for some time now, and while I have money set aside for the install, I feel very hesitant about spending it because it's taken infinitely more time to find a job than I originally thought.

I've now been turned down by the IRS twice for seasonal clerical and data-transcribing positions. How does that happen? I have a B.S. in a marketing/management/business related field, a minor in communication, able to type over 80 wpm, and I have employment history in office-related positions. I mean, I had a friend that got hired for seasonal IRS work after graduating from high school. 

I just don't get it.


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

Hoptologist said:


> Flax 3-ways? What Flax 3-ways? Oh, right, those Flax 3-ways. Yeah, they are still sitting in the box. I've been unemployed for some time now, and while I have money set aside for the install, I feel very hesitant about spending it because it's taken infinitely more time to find a job than I originally thought.
> 
> I've now been turned down by the IRS twice for seasonal clerical and data-transcribing positions. How does that happen? I have a B.S. in a marketing/management/business related field, a minor in communication, able to type over 80 wpm, and I have employment history in office-related positions. I mean, I had a friend that got hired for seasonal IRS work after graduating from high school.
> 
> I just don't get it.


This sounds eerily similar to my wife's situation. She's been out for over a year now and probably the main reason I have not done anything car audio related really - money or lack thereof. Do you have 500 applications for each job you apply for to battle against tho? That has become the norm around here. Really sad and shocking how fast it got like this.


----------



## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

james2266 said:


> This sounds eerily similar to my wife's situation. She's been out for over a year now and probably the main reason I have not done anything car audio related really - money or lack thereof. Do you have 500 applications for each job you apply for to battle against tho? That has become the norm around here. Really sad and shocking how fast it got like this.


500! That's pretty crazy. My problem is that I never hear back from anyone I apply with. It used to look good to drop off a resume or an application, contact them to follow up, maybe get an interview, contact them to say thank you, stay on top of them etc. 

But now, it feels like assertiveness is almost taken as being a nuisance. I call these companies back, and I'm essentially told that calling in won't help my chances, that if I want to check the status of my application to do so online. A lot of ads I see even say "don't apply in person," but then others appreciate your assertiveness and continued contact, so it's just very confusing. 

I've contacted and applied at nearly every home audio, computer, networking, media, and IT support company in my area, and I've responded to every administrative-related job ad that I've seen online. I've applied at hospitals, the City, the County, solar companies, marketing positions, the IRS, everything. I've even gone to temp agencies. It's so discouraging. 

And having past experience for the positions I'm applying for has been a huge setback. Everyone wants you to have at least 2 years of experience and no one seems willing to train. I guess I should have been getting experience all those years instead of going to college and getting a bachelor degree?

I'm at the point where I'm ready to try starting a business of my own.


----------



## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

Hoptologist said:


> 500! That's pretty crazy. My problem is that I never hear back from anyone I apply with. It used to look good to drop off a resume or an application, contact them to follow up, maybe get an interview, contact them to say thank you, stay on top of them etc.
> 
> But now, it feels like assertiveness is almost taken as being a nuisance. I call these companies back, and I'm essentially told that calling in won't help my chances, that if I want to check the status of my application to do so online. A lot of ads I see even say "don't apply in person," but then others appreciate your assertiveness and continued contact, so it's just very confusing.
> 
> ...


Yep, sounds about the same as here. Wife can't even get a call back from freakin' grocery stores for christ's sake. She actually is trying a new home business too. The job market just plain sucks these days and you are right about not being able to help yourself out by following up and such. It almost seems like companies would rather have a lazy ass who just goes click, click click these days. pathetic. Anyone can just sit and fire off resumes from a computer. I am really glad that I have a very stable job in health care personally so I will hopefully never have to go looking in this disgusting job market ever again (hopefully). I only found out about how many applications she was applying against from my Doctor and my old manager as my wife applied at both spots. The doctor actually apologized for not calling back as they are too small to be able to call back 500 people to say they didn't get the job. We need a freakin' new government mainly up here. Someone that will stand up for what Canada offers the world instead of bending over for the Americans and just capitulating at the bargaining table. That isn't a shot at Americans at all that is a shot at the crappy new Canadian government (that I did NOT vote for).


----------



## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

Sorry for the vent and O.T.


----------



## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

No worries man, I'm with you. Venting feels good.


----------



## mcnaugcl (Apr 23, 2013)

Hoptologist said:


> Flax 3-ways? What Flax 3-ways? Oh, right, those Flax 3-ways. Yeah, they are still sitting in the box. I've been unemployed for some time now, and while I have money set aside for the install, I feel very hesitant about spending it because it's taken infinitely more time to find a job than I originally thought.
> 
> I've now been turned down by the IRS twice for seasonal clerical and data-transcribing positions. How does that happen? I have a B.S. in a marketing/management/business related field, a minor in communication, able to type over 80 wpm, and I have employment history in office-related positions. I mean, I had a friend that got hired for seasonal IRS work after graduating from high school.
> 
> I just don't get it.


Where in CA are you? My company has some positions open in a few different areas of CA.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

mcnaugcl said:


> Where in CA are you? My company has some positions open in a few different areas of CA.


He is in Clovis/Fresno.


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## mcnaugcl (Apr 23, 2013)

rton20s said:


> He is in Clovis/Fresno.


Thanks for the info. I'll send him a PM.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Just a little update to clear out some cobwebs in this thread. I REALLY hate spiders.

I'm still unemployed...trying to keep myself busy. I put out a home-theater ad on Craigslist since I enjoy doing that. Got one hit. Nice old lady wanted me to hook up an old Bose system to her TV. Took 15 minutes, didn't charge her. Did a bunch of painting for some family friends. In the process of landscaping my mom's backyard, very incrementally, thanks to this heat. Have a couple of people I want to make websites for so I'm relearning web design. Took a couple vacations, Universal Studios and Santa Barbara. Been closely following politics, just ends up making me frustrated. Still job hunting, recently interviewed for Riley's Brewing in Madera. And... that's about it.

So, I think I still have a set of Flax 3-ways around here somewhere. Yeah, those aren't going in anytime soon. I'm going to half-inherit a new car in less than a year, a 2012 Honda Accord, so it really doesn't make financial sense for me to spend money having them installed in my current Accord. But, thanks to meme-master rton20s, I do have a new subwoofer finally, the JBL W15GTI MKII! A little more on that in the next post(s)...


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

I’m not going to say too much about the JBL W15GTI MKII yet, since I’ve yet to apply any sort of EQ/gain optimization to it. As it stands, the woofer hardly moves even when pushing it fairly loud, so I’m thinking I have some room to gain up even more, but we’ll see. I’ll probably leave it where it’s at and just try boosting certain frequencies to get the kind of curve I want. Or gain up and reduce frequencies. Anyway…

As far as looks go, not a fan. I knew that going in though. Ever since I first googled the GTI MKII years ago, the whole straight-off-the-alien-mothership look just seems, ahh, weird. But I could really care less about looks, especially when something sounds soooo good.

Prior to this, I had a DD 3515g supercharged. I’m using the same enclosure, same amp settings, same everything, that I was using on the DD 3515, except of course the DD 3515 was connected to a 1-ohm load and saw 2500 RMS. The JBL is set up for a 3-ohm load and ~1100 RMS. 

The enclosure that I’m using had to be built inside my trunk, as it was too big to otherwise “slide” in. The net volume is 3.979 cu. ft. and it’s tuned to 35.88 Hz according to WinISD, but taking into account “effective tuning” (i.e. adding half the width of the port to the total length since it’s a slot port sharing walls with the enclosure), I came up with about 34.8 Hz using JL’s equation. The rear wall of the enclosure is removable, as is part of the actual port, so I can extend the port if I wanted to by adding a longer piece. Something else I’m considering is adding .5” slabs of MDF to the port walls, which would lower the effective tuning to about 32.7 Hz using my current port length. These are things I may do at a later time.

Weird how you intend to get straight to the point, and before you know it, you’ve written 344 words. So just briefly, first impressions are that while it doesn’t play the deep bass area with as much authority, the mid-upper subbass sounds absolutely celestial. There is a bit of warmth and effortlessness that is so velvety and silky smooth. The DD 3515 in this region, as have many other subs I’ve had, sounded nasally and a tad tone-y, if you know what I mean. And for the longest time, the songs in my library that have gotten the most usage are the ones with the deepest bass, because with the exception of the IDMAX and C12 XL, the 50-90Hz region has just sounded unattractive to me with most of the sub setups that I’ve had, so it feels so refreshing to actually have a sub that sounds superb at all levels of subbass in a ported enclosure. 

tl;dr: I’m sure I’ll have much more to say about the JBL W15 later on, but my first impressions are that while I may have lost in SPL, I gained in tonality and overall SQ.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

It’s been too hot lately to do much measuring with REW, but I was able to endure the struggle for a few mins earlier and measured the JBL W15GTI MKII without any EQ. I then loaded a measurement of the DD 3515 that I had previously taken, also without any EQ, so that they may be compared.

*Note. TIL that I REALLY need to take better notes when saving measurements in REW. I had the hardest time tracking down the 3515 measurement. I know I’ve measured the 3515 countless times, with and without EQ, and while going through my saved measurements earlier, I ended up with about 15 different measurements of the 3515 I was choosing from. Some were super similar, some were drastically different. Only 1 said “3515 NoEQ” so that’s the one I’m using here. I’ve also included another measurement of the 3515 in the second graph, which included added gain and lots of EQ. I think once I added Hanutsu’s curve as a reference, I realized I needed to boost the sub, so I’m thinking that is what we are glimpsing there. I always take measurements in REW with my headunit at volume 31, for no particular reason other than my attempt at consistency.

**Graph observations. The DD 3515 peaks at about 30 Hz, while the JBL in this enclosure peaks at about 39 Hz. I thought that was funny since the box is tuned to ~35 Hz. This seems about right for the JBL though, since according to the various ported enclosure specs in the JBL tech sheet, it seems to peak at about 5 Hz higher than enclosure tuning. Nevertheless, the JBL seems to have greater extension, being nearly 5db louder than the 3515 at 20 Hz (Fs coming into play there?). Once I EQ and optimize the JBL, I’ll post another comparison vs the EQ’d 3515.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Good to see that you got it installed and have even had a chance to take some measurements. I look forward to reading your thoughts and impressions once you have the system tuned/optimized for the W15GTi MkII.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

It's been so hot, I can only stand to sit in the car without ac for minutes at a time. Probably doesn't help that I pick the worst times of the day to measure.

I raised the gain a tad on the JBL and did some EQing. Here's the new curve I got. Still more tweaks to be done...


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Hoptologist said:


> It's been so hot, I can only stand to sit in the car without ac for minutes at a time. Probably doesn't help that I pick the worst times of the day to measure.
> 
> 
> 
> I raised the gain a tad on the JBL and did some EQing. Here's the new curve I got. Still more tweaks to be done...



That's pretty cool. Play around with the offset function in REW and I bet you'll find those line up nicely if you kick up the red channel about 2db or so. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Babs said:


> That's pretty cool. Play around with the offset function in REW and I bet you'll find those line up nicely if you kick up the red channel about 2db or so.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah they did, and then I dropped 40hz about 4db and upped 31 Hz 1.1db, so my peak is currently about 32.5 Hz instead of 38 Hz like before. I might try a 70 Hz lpf to get rid of that bump since I don't have a 70 Hz band. Natural null at about 60 Hz, or what is that called, a modal dip? I forget 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Someone broke into my car last night/this morning and took my ipod and 4 channel amp. So ****ing pissed.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Hoptologist said:


> Someone broke into my car last night/this morning and took my ipod and 4 channel amp. So ****ing pissed.



Sonofabitch!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## strong*I*bumpin (Oct 3, 2005)

Freakin haters,off with their heads.That sucks sorry to hear this.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Hoptologist said:


> Someone broke into my car last night/this morning and took my ipod and 4 channel amp. So ****ing pissed.


What?! That really sucks. Sorry to hear man. If I had a 4 channel to loan you, I would.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

It's almost the worst feeling ever. No obvious damage to the car anywhere, so they must have had some kind of tool. Makes me just feel like taking everything out and not having a system for a while. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Pretty sure I'm going to sell my KS 300.2 and wait for a used Arc XDiV2 600.4. I think this has dissuaded me from doing 3ways in the future as well, so I'll probably sell the Flax set.


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## CoLd_FuSiOn (Jun 25, 2012)

Hoptologist said:


> I’m not going to say too much about the JBL W15GTI MKII yet, since I’ve yet to apply any sort of EQ/gain optimization to it. As it stands, the woofer hardly moves even when pushing it fairly loud, so I’m thinking I have some room to gain up even more, but we’ll see. I’ll probably leave it where it’s at and just try boosting certain frequencies to get the kind of curve I want. Or gain up and reduce frequencies. Anyway…
> 
> As far as looks go, not a fan. I knew that going in though. Ever since I first googled the GTI MKII years ago, the whole straight-off-the-alien-mothership look just seems, ahh, weird. But I could really care less about looks, especially when something sounds soooo good.
> 
> ...



That sir there is a fantastic subwoofer, having personally owned one and even after listening the 12 inch variant as well. Hands down of the best subwoofers i've ever heard, I get the part about the low extension sometimes the subwoofer completely vanishes on you and you're wondering even if it's on or not. Apart from that no matter how much you push it, it takes power and throws music out there without breaking a sweat and without any audible distortion. I'm sure it'll sound even better once you tweak things here and there.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Hoptologist said:


> Pretty sure I'm going to sell my KS 300.2 and wait for a used Arc XDiV2 600.4. I think this has dissuaded me from doing 3ways in the future as well, so I'll probably sell the Flax set.





Hoptologist said:


> It's almost the worst feeling ever. No obvious damage to the car anywhere, so they must have had some kind of tool. Makes me just feel like taking everything out and not having a system for a while.


Don't let it get you down.. 
Consider it as ok.. challenge accepted.. Time to go stealth mode. Hide it all.  Get all Mission Impossible on it. 

"Nothin' to see here burglar, move along and consider maybe a job instead of jacking my car and hard work."


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I wouldn't dump the Flax just yet, but I understand wanting to keep things hidden. If you do abandon a 3-way setup, perhaps talk to Robert about going to a GB60 + GB15 two way since they are AF dealers now. That comp set is designed to have a low crossover point between the 6" mid and the 1.5" tweeter and the installation hardware provided allows for a very OE look, even when the drivers aren't hidden.


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Thanks guys.

And yeah, I'd consider the Audiofrog set, as well as the new Focal Kevlars and some upper-end Gladens. I'd just rather stay 2-way for stealth and cost reasons. Not going to change anything until at least next year though.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Damn dude, that sucks! Sorry to hear that. I've been broken into like 5 times in my life and it sucks every time.

I am glad you finally got on the GTI hype train though.


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