# The Truth about Hertz Mille Original vs. New Comp Sets



## lehelke3

Ok guys I took personal interest in demystifying how to tell the difference between the original signature series Klippel certified MLK2 and MLK3 versus the new cheaper versions available today ....

I want to start this thread by stating that if you hear anyone saying that the new is just as good as the old that's the sign of a sore looser who couldn't get the originals had to settle for the newer version and is talking himself into believing that ist's just as good 

The original sets were called MLK2 and MLK3 and yes they were both Klippel certified better build with using expensive rare earth materials came with much better cross overs used to be a LOT more expensive and had much better specs ! 

Not to mention that when MLK2 and 3 was around they were THE speakers to own being top of the line ahead of their times truly unique speakers.

Todays version is no longer top of the line, still better than most comparable speakers but there is a new king on the throne and it's called Thesis. So obviously not being top of the line anymore means they shed some of their former glory 

Let's take a look at the differences !

The original MLK2 set contained the 6.5 signature mid which had the name Hertz engraved in the outer metal rim at the 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock position and the rubber surrounding the cone looks different (Alpine Type R and Type X subwoofers come to my mind they used similar rubber in the subs)
The xmax of the signature series mid was 6.5 mm (new one only has 4.5) 

The ML 280 tweeter actually came with two options: regular and deep chamber chassis so user had the option of detaching (or unscrewing the bottom part and changing the housing of the tweeters. Don't quote me on this but I believe that in addition to changing the depth of the chambers there were also different pieces of cloth included which were interchangeable too that supposedly made a difference in how the tweeter sounded.

And the crossover in my opinion is the most noticeable difference. The original set came with beautiful large pieces with see through glass panel at the front, an absolute beauty to look at (new one is cheap little plasticky black box)

The original MLK3 had the same pieces and in addition sported the absolutely gorgeous and one of a kind ribbon mids called ML 500R (as opposed to the new and much cheaper ML 700 standard round 2.75" mids)

The crossover was even bigger and more impressive looking again as opposed to the cheap plasticky (I think I just made up this word  black box

And now ladies and gents you know what I know. I am sure there is things missing from here and I am probably not 100% accurate or maybe my wording is a bit strange (ESL) but you get the just of it here believe it or not here is the golden truth as I know it:


Most brands and models that were once mighty and built exceptionally well using the best workmanship and materials available to mandkind have resurfaced with cheaper less quality products that lost their glory (like Hi fonics, MLK3, Boston Acoustic Comps sets just to name a few) while there are still products out there like Brax and Focal Utopia with crossblock No7 that are still being made just as well as their were many years ago.

So not all hope is lost but it is what it is make sure you know what you're getting into and if you don't know do your homework or ask someone who knows 

Hope you all find this somewhat educational 
If you know more feel free to correct me 

(I know that in the old signature version of the ML1600 there were two versions one with neodynium one without it but I didn't want to get to technical and be wrong so since I don't know that part I just left it out - my main purpose was to decipher the difference between new and old that's all


----------



## lehelke3

Pictures show new 2 way vs. old new 3 way vs. old new 6.5 vs. old in this order


----------



## lehelke3

Here's some pics as requested


----------



## mrpeabody

How are the older Mille's a better speaker then the current line-up?

I've had plenty of experience with all the Hertz/Audison products and would be interested in your reasoning.

Only thing I can think of is the new ones being built in the Elettromedia China factory being a turn-off to some people, but how have you experienced the new Mille's performance being less-than the old MLK's?

You mentioned the Thesis being "the new king on the throne" but they arent in production anymore and where in production during the old MLK run.


Just trying to see where you're coming from as I'm confused. Especially this statement:


> I want to start this thread by stating that if you hear anyone saying that the new is just as good as the old that's the sign of a sore looser who couldn't get the originals had to settle for the newer version and is talking himself into believing that ist's just as good


----------



## GV713

Pleaser Mr Peabody, if you have any experience with the ML1600 can you please Comment on this thread ? 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...20-these-hertz-ml1600-real-2.html#post2123926

We are trying to determine the authenticity of the products offered by a seller which is how this thread I am now posting to you on came about.


----------



## lehelke3

Mr Peabody I did some more research trying to be more factual since it looks like I opened a can of worms and here's the revised truth

Audison Thesis was really born in 2009 and Hertz MLK new versions started popping up around 2010. Elettromedia made the decision of downgrading the Mille line in favour of Thesis line which became their top of the line flagship model along with the new amplifiers. They did the same when they discontinued the VRX line in favour of the new Thesis amps. so the company streamlined itself between Hertz and Audison to have a unified model when it came to having one of the best line out there for speakers and amps (not to say that there isn't better because of course there is - there is always something better 

So there is no question that the new Mille's were a watered doen version of the originals all you have to do is take a looks at the specs and the quality of workmanship/build and you can see it for yourself

Back in the days when MLK was king they did not spare any follars to pick the best and most expensive materials to build from now they are cutting costs building them in China replaced the ribbon mids the expensive looking crossovers and making simpler tweeters if these signs are not enough for anyone to realize that these new versions are not even close to the old ones I don't know what is 

I actually own all three new old MLK and Thesis so I am fortunate enough to be in a position to say based on experience this is my personal opinion and I am sticking to it


----------



## lehelke3

And GV713 I believe that those speakers are real, I was thrown off by the Klippel sticker that's all, and if you want the honest truth having a Klippel Institute Certified logo is not the same as Hertz as a company playing with Klippel Scanning Equipment at their own facilities and do their own testing and probably that's why they had to remove the Klippel sticker because it was misleading. (They may have tried to pull a fast one but looks like they got caught

This is just like having a TV calibrated by an ISF certified technician is NOT the same as buying an ISF certified DVD and doing it yourself !


----------



## thehatedguy

So aside from what you can see, what makes the guts better in the old ones?


----------



## lehelke3

Not the expert when it comes to the inside of these units but from what I understand they used rare earth materials with highest quality components therefore you and up with better specs. I think the old MLK's are very close to the new Thesis line in terms of workmanship and quality. When you using high end SQ the materials being used make a big difference, if you want to achieve the purest quality sound.

Most of the high grade audiophile speakers and amps are also built in France, Germany, Italy and not in China. That kind of make you loose credibility if you ask me....


----------



## LaserSVT

Dunno, all the research I have done has shown that while there are specification differences between the new and old Mille mid woofers that the new ones can not only play lower but play louder where as the older ones have a bit more warmth but in side by side comparisons they sound nearly identical.

Didn't matter for my decision as I wasn't going to pay a premium to have some 3-4 year old versions vs fresh from the factory second gens.

The tweeter on the other hand is something special and hard to beat that old ribbon. Downside is its so freakin big and is very specific on where it needs to go so that rules it out for my application.... not to mention cost and the fact I am very happy with my Illusions.


----------



## mrpeabody

lehelke3 said:


> Not the expert when it comes to the inside of these units but from what I understand they used rare earth materials with highest quality components therefore you and up with better specs. I think the old MLK's are very close to the new Thesis line in terms of workmanship and quality. When you using high end SQ the materials being used make a big difference, if you want to achieve the purest quality sound.
> 
> Most of the high grade audiophile speakers and amps are also built in France, Germany, Italy and not in China. That kind of make you loose credibility if you ask me....


I'm more interested in why you believe they aren't as good based on experience, install, tuning, etc. 

Is there something specifically they can't do compared to the older designs?

I understand the compulsion to assume they don't perform as well due to them not being as "high end." However, just because they're made in a China factory doesn't automatically mean they don't perform as well. That's just an assumption.

Correlation is not Causation and all that jazz.


----------



## 1996blackmax

Interested in hearing the answer. Sound reproduction would be the most important part....wherever it was made.


----------



## lehelke3

The answer is simple guys. If you have an amp that can actually drive these speakers the way they meant to be driven you will hear the difference. I had the fortune of listening to the old and new on my VRX amps and I could def hear a difference. More detail more transparency. The imaging was also better when I listened to live recording do music seemed to come alive and you had amazing sound quality. I could actually hear instruments come alive and closing my eyes I could actually visualize them as I was on a stage.... heard to explain but I have been running Focal 2kp and Hertz Mille for the longest time and you acquire a certain taste to high end sound. 

At the end of the day my feedback is relative and if you really want to know the difference you need to get a pair of each and compare yourself my experience and my demands and needs are unique and so is my opinion.

But just how the old saying goes if it walk like a duck and quacks like a duck it IS a duck no matter how you look at it...


----------



## minbari

lehelke3 said:


> Not the expert when it comes to the inside of these units but from what I understand they used rare earth materials with highest quality components therefore you and up with better specs. I think the old MLK's are very close to the new Thesis line in terms of workmanship and quality. When you using high end SQ the materials being used make a big difference, if you want to achieve the purest quality sound.
> 
> Most of the high grade audiophile speakers and amps are also built in France, Germany, Italy and not in China. That kind of make you loose credibility if you ask me....


so you really have no idea and are just talking out of your ass. good to know


----------



## lehelke3

I guess you can look at it that way ignorance is a bliss...

You go with your Made in China audiophile equipment and I will stick with my Audisons....

I tried to make a point and share my opinion but I'm done. Anyone else out there that wants to dick around with why it is or it isn't better feel free to purchase both and form your own opinion based of facts as opposed to yanking my chain and looking for scientific explanations as to why it's better is that fair enough gentlemen?


----------



## I800C0LLECT

Because Car Audio is vastly different from one car to the next many of the enthusiasts have been forced to ask a lot more questions to help reproduce the sound they want when moving from vehicle to vehicle.

There's somewhat of a pattern that's evolved from all these questions. None of this happens to be based on "this looks good, better, worse" It's based on, how do we consistently reproduce the characteristics we prefer? It turns out, that we've gained quite a bit of knowledge. However, it seems to fly in the face of some ideas or experiences. Please don't get upset. It took a while for me to wrap my head around a lot of it but in the end I feel much more confident in my approach to audio.

When I was reading a lot of home audio sites I came to the conclusion that until I had enough money for $50k in wire, a house built around my speaker, and enough disposable cash that could cure cancer or buy the single perfect power supply + power cord, I'll have to live vicariously through the posts of others.

I guess some of us get a little frustrated when the argument becomes circular..."hear it for yourself"....but what if we don't? Then it turns into an issue of Golden ears and an attempt to describe something that nobody will understand unless you go back to the golden ears discussion. It just goes back and forth.

It gets to be too much having these conversations again and again. Just read some more threads and try to see the perspective of others on the forum.

Take care!


----------



## Ultimateherts

I800C0LLECT said:


> Because Car Audio is vastly different from one car to the next many of the enthusiasts have been forced to ask a lot more questions to help reproduce the sound they want when moving from vehicle to vehicle.
> 
> There's somewhat of a pattern that's evolved from all these questions. None of this happens to be based on "this looks good, better, worse" It's based on, how do we consistently reproduce the characteristics we prefer? It turns out, that we've gained quite a bit of knowledge. However, it seems to fly in the face of some ideas or experiences. Please don't get upset. It took a while for me to wrap my head around a lot of it but in the end I feel much more confident in my approach to audio.
> 
> When I was reading a lot of home audio sites I came to the conclusion that until I had enough money for $50k in wire, a house built around my speaker, and enough disposable cash that could cure cancer or buy the single perfect power supply + power cord, I'll have to live vicariously through the posts of others.
> 
> I guess some of us get a little frustrated when the argument becomes circular..."hear it for yourself"....but what if we don't? Then it turns into an issue of Golden ears and an attempt to describe something that nobody will understand unless you go back to the golden ears discussion. It just goes back and forth.
> 
> It gets to be too much having these conversations again and again. Just read some more threads and try to see the perspective of others on the forum.
> 
> Take care!


Not only that it is also a matter of what we remember. Most people only have one car at a time therefore they are relying on past experiences from memory (when I was a child it was better). Since we do not have the ability to travel back in time we usually just assume the past was better (Richard Clark's Buick). My point is that unless we use the same exact conditions and do a side by side comparison we basically our own worst enemy.


----------



## squeak9798

lehelke3 said:


> I guess you can look at it that way ignorance is a bliss...
> 
> You go with your Made in China audiophile equipment and I will stick with my Audisons....
> 
> I tried to make a point and share my opinion but I'm done. Anyone else out there that wants to dick around with why it is or it isn't better feel free to purchase both and form your own opinion based of facts as opposed to yanking my chain and looking for scientific explanations as to why it's better is that fair enough gentlemen?


Or perhaps you could just stop talking out of your ass and making assumptions based on things you don't actually understand. Seems like the much more simple solution.


----------



## 14642

The rules regarding country of origin in the EU allow for many products made outside the EU to be called Made in France, Italy, etc. The rules in Germany are much more similar to the rules for made in the US.

In some European countries, all that must be done is to pay a tax on the imported products and change the sticker. Sometimes, some final assembly has to be done. In some cases, that final assembly is attaching a magnet cover or a logo badge. 

I've visited lots of factories in China and and I've seen surround forming tools, basket tools and plenty of labels in boxes that read, "Made in [insert EU country here]". Country of origin stickers are no longer an indication of the actual origin nor the quality of the products. There are great factories EVERYWHERE and crappy ones EVERYWHERE, too. You'll have to look a little deeper to determine the actual quality of the product. The design matters. The reliability and performance specification matters too. High quality factories can build high quality products no matter where they are located. Poor factories cannot. Providing a real design and a real spec that includes recourse for defects is how one separates the good from the bad.

"Rare Earth Magnets" and "High quality comonents" do not make a good speaker. Rare Earth probably means Neodymium. The crappy 3" in the dashboard of a mercedes uses Neodymium, just like many of the $2 tweeters. Big deal. fancy names for cone materials and tweeter dome materials aren't an indication of quality either. 

If you want to know if a speaker is a good one. Ask for real specs and measurements or measure it yourself. Check out the "Klippel testing" section of this forum for some good information.


----------



## hot9dog

I think Mr. Wehmeyer is spot on.... what we are seeing in alot of different industries now is the back handed effect of globalization. Its all smoke and mirrors now. Its now driven down to original engineered design: is quality engineered into the product. But unfortunately that orginal design is watered down or revised by the bean counters to improve bottom line. Ive seen all kinds of variations to this problem in several countries. ... EVERYONE who wants to compete financially in the global marketplace has to make crappy products. The companies that aren't profit driven and have a strong engineering culture are driven under sooner or later. Its sad.


----------



## 14642

IF you are going to compete with garbage on price, then there's no alternative to making garbage.

I think that in many industries, car audio included, there are enough customers who are willing to pay more for better stuff--in fact, many of them are DYINGA to pay more for better stuff, if they can just find it.


----------



## hot9dog

And thats why im watching the radar for your products Mr. Wehmeyer. Lol


----------



## crave31

Do the ML 280 tweeters come out of their housing for smaller/tight fit installation into a OEM tweeter housing? I have a set of Focal TNK tweeters currently in the housing of my 2014 WRX stock tweeter location and they fit snugly without issue. I am looking to upgrade to ML 1600 and ML 280 and am trying to figure out how to install the tweets without too much custom work. Any feedback would be great!


----------



## Angrywhopper

ML280 tweeters are big!


----------



## crave31

Yes they definitely are...I ordered blank sail panels that are not already formed for the factory tweeters just now. If I end up not using them then all I have wasted was $13...


----------



## Accordman

Old thread, but i've owned and have PLENTY of power all of the Mille sets and i cant audibly tell a difference.


----------



## crave31

I have had my Milles for about 3 months now and am running them on a Hertz HDP5 (removed my HD9005) and OMG my car has never sounded better! I Dynamated the entire doors with multiple layers so I can double make sure I covered any possible leaking holes and my drivers play LOWWWW....I turn off my subs from time to time and listen to only my fronts and I am extremely happy with how amazing they sound!


----------



## 14642

Just an FYI. Klippel is a manufacturer of measurement tools. They are great tools and can be very helpful in understanding the nonlinear performance of loudspeakers and making corrections. The machine is quite expensive to purchase. Klippel also provides a measurement service in which you can send them the drivers and they will test them and return a report via email.

THERE IS NO KLIPPEL CERTIFICATION PROGRAM. HAVING YOUR PRODUCTS TESTED ON A KLIPPEL MACHINE WHETHER IT'S YOURS OR THEIRS IS SIMPLY A SOURCE OF INFORMATION ABOUT THE DRIVER'S PERFORMANCE. IT IS NOT EVIDENCE OF MEETING SOME INDUSTRY STANDARD. 

SAYING "KLIPPEL VERIFIED" IS THE SAME AS SAYING, "AUDIO SYSTEM TESTED WITH AN RTA".


----------



## Viggen

I see they just released their .3 version of the Mille line, anyone played with those yet??

I have the ML280's & ML1600.2's in my daily driver and I am debating on using their .3 line in my miata build which will begin this next summer when it's above freezing in my garage  I see they now offer a 7-8in midbass which is what I want to do in the miata since it fits... a 3 way active setup is my goal. Local shop sells Hertz & I was hopeing to be able to haggle price with them a bit, they have always treated me will in the past! 

I have also been reading up on AudioFrog's stuff.... HAT & a few others....


----------



## Accordman

Viggen said:


> I see they just released their .3 version of the Mille line, anyone played with those yet??
> 
> I have the ML280's & ML1600.2's in my daily driver and I am debating on using their .3 line in my miata build which will begin this next summer when it's above freezing in my garage  I see they now offer a 7-8in midbass which is what I want to do in the miata since it fits... a 3 way active setup is my goal. Local shop sells Hertz & I was hopeing to be able to haggle price with them a bit, they have always treated me will in the past!
> 
> I have also been reading up on AudioFrog's stuff.... HAT & a few others....


new revision has the same great sound as the old revision. twweter and mid both have a small amount more of ability to be cross over lower.


----------

