# tweeters too bright, tips on placement??



## illnastyimpreza (Oct 25, 2006)

So I just installed some JBL C608GTI MKII components in my Wife's BRZ. They are getting 300w x 2
We were running short on time so we just put the tweeters in the factory locations on the dash (hoping it would sound good....turns out it does not)

Well the tweeters on these guys are SUPER bright and it feels like they are screaming at you.

I plan on moving them to the A pillars (cross firing)

Any recommendations for finding the best tweeter placement???


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## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

It seems a problem in volume level. Moving tweeters will not help a lot. Try to EQ the system. Do you have some measurement equipment? Try with different angles if possible, then reflected from the windshield 

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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

If the passive xover has a tweeter attenuation switch, use it. Typically in active setups the tweets are cut 3-5 db from the midbass. Other than that, like mentioned, use the eq. IIRC that xover uses 24 db slopes at ~2 khz so yeah cut between 2-4 khz.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I beg to differ. Axis makes a big difference especially with most car audio tweets. Even Andy has stated that JBL designs their tweets to be played off-axis. EQ & level helps, but it is *not* a band-aid for poor placement. I have a set of ND20FA-6 in the sails with *zero* EQ. Only xover, level, & t/a set. The measured response was very surprising...... install them like they were meant to be. Bouncing off of the windshield usually isn't a good one.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Bayboy said:


> I beg to differ. Axis makes a big difference especially with most car audio tweets. Even Andy has stated that JBL designs their tweets to be played off-axis. EQ & level helps, but it is *not* a band-aid for poor placement. I have a set of ND20FA-6 in the sails with *zero* EQ. Only xover, level, & t/a set. The measured response was very surprising...... install them like they were meant to be.


Everyone's an expert.

1. Read OP's first post, the tweets are in _stock dash_ location. Where are most stock dash locations? They are already off axis.

2. EQ is a band aid for placement? Dude you need to see and understand Andy's graphs for response, 1" from the cone and at ear level. The whole frickin car is a ****ty placement for speakers that play above ~500 hz. *You need to eq for the cars response, and that is crappy no matter where you mount speakers.*

3. If just by putting tweets in pillars, you don't need to do any eq, then either you're measuring wrong or not listening closely enough, whichever way you tune the setup.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

sqnut said:


> Everyone's an expert.
> 
> 1. Read OP's first post, the tweets are in _stock dash_ location. Where are most stock dash locations? They are already off axis.
> 
> ...


Was there really a need to get snooty in your reply?! Don't be an ass because I can be just as big as one and could give two flying ****s less if you feel some sort of superiority complex. Show me where I said tweets in pillars, but then you state about reading? Here's a good read where you seem to forget that you was included in.... off-axis is okay, but firing off of the windshield usually isn't good and is worse than upper doors. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...audio-discussion/136438-axis-vs-off-axis.html


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Yeah. Bouncing off the glass right into your face might as well be on axis.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Bayboy said:


> Was there really a need to get snooty in your reply?! Don't be an ass because I can be just as big as one and could give two flying ****s less if you feel some sort of superiority complex. Show me where I said tweets in pillars, but then you state about reading? Here's a good read where you seem to forget that you was included in.... off-axis is okay, but firing off of the windshield usually isn't good and is worse than upper doors.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...audio-discussion/136438-axis-vs-off-axis.html





DC/Hertz said:


> Yeah. Bouncing off the glass right into your face might as well be on axis.


There have been MANY champion cars that put mids and tweets in the corners of dash. Good depth and width, you just need to know how to tune. 

As to the corners of dash making the sound on axis, right. You're going to have major combing, where ever you mount the tweets.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Far too many variances between cars & drivers used for that example. That does not make it a fallacy, but it does not make it an absolute either. The point is I do believe Andy has stated this several times which a quick google of keywords should easily bring that up. Slightly different set, but I'm sure the same holds true for all of the GTI's.




Andy Wehmeyer said:


> JBL 660GTi is designed to be used with the waveguides at 35 degrees off axis.



Now whether that is feasible in every car is questionable, but I don't think I would call that near the same as firing off of the windshield. If that is the only option, then sure you will have to deal with it in tuning. Other than that, I think we all know the general consensus is optimize install first, tune last.


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## illnastyimpreza (Oct 25, 2006)

DC/Hertz said:


> Yeah. Bouncing off the glass right into your face might as well be on axis.


Yeah I'm thinking that is exactly what is happening 

some good chat here guys, keep it up!

I do not have any testing equipment, other than the Pioneer auto EQ mic (which I have used before and was VERY happy with)

How far up the A pillars should I place ??


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Like SQnutjob said, it can work and many make it work well but it needs EQ. Which you have. What you don't have is a way to lower its levels without lowering the mid.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

When using passives you're at the mercy of what they offer which isn't much. There's jumpers inside them that can be adjusted, but they will only attenuate by -2db if already set at the 0 setting. You may have them set at the +2db so you could net -4db if they are. Other than that, it's EQ if they're to stay in that position. If it's much trouble, you can move them around temporarily to find the sweet spot and possibly use the included wave guides to maximize things. 

There's a few threads on here dealing with the GTI sets you could peruse and get tips from. Don't be surprised if most run them active though.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

As far as my not knowing what I'm doing referring to having no EQ on the tweets in the sails (again.... sails, not pillars ), here's a pic of the response of both tweets and full system as I was doing some fiddling today. This was using uncorrelated pink noise as I am measuring total system response. Individual drivers were measured and adjusted some time ago after the install. Dayton USB mic using a sweeping motion from ear to ear to obtain an average. 1/6 smoothing which should be fine for upper frequencies. Again... the EQ is flat on the tweets. 





















Now I'm not saying his or anyone else's tweets will exhibit the same thing as these are little 3/4" tweets crossed at -24db LR 7khz. The same measurement technique was used on prior setups in the same vehicle where a different tweeter was located elsewhere and did wind up needing some EQ work in that area. I have not changed my measurement technique.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> 1. Read OP's first post, the tweets are in _stock dash_ location. Where are most stock dash locations? They are already off axis.


so.. pretty much on axis....

OP, gunna need some eq work if you want to keep them there. you will most likely need eq work no matter where you put them to get the most out of them. Bayboys situation is pretty uncommon


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## MikeS (May 23, 2015)

illnastyimpreza said:


> it feels like they are screaming at you.


Tried also to flip the phase on tweeters?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Bayboy said:


> I beg to differ. Axis makes a big difference especially with most car audio tweets. Even Andy has stated that JBL designs their tweets to be played off-axis. EQ & level helps, but it is *not* a band-aid for poor placement. I have a set of ND20FA-6 in the sails with *zero* EQ. Only xover, level, & t/a set. The measured response was very surprising...... install them like they were meant to be. Bouncing off of the windshield usually isn't a good one.


remember, if your not using all of your eq your doing it wrong


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

MikeS said:


> Tried also to flip the phase on tweeters?


wont do much at those frequencies. itll sound different, but will still be bright


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> remember, if your not using all of your eq your doing it wrong



I'm sorry man.... don't kick me out just yet. I promise I'll do better. :blush:


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## MikeS (May 23, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> wont do much at those frequencies. itll sound different, but will still be bright


Probably, but that's something you'd do with dsp. Worth a try anyways if running passive.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

MikeS said:


> Probably, but that's something you'd do with dsp. Worth a try anyways if running passive.


It won't do anything at all, except maybe at the lowest frequencies (which won't be the frequencies causing problems). Remember how short the wavelengths are at those frequencies, just a couple of mm will ruin the phase, luckily we don't hear that and use amplitude for those frequencies instead. Flipping the phase won't help.


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## MikeS (May 23, 2015)

gijoe said:


> It won't do anything at all, except maybe at the lowest frequencies (which won't be the frequencies causing problems). Remember how short the wavelengths are at those frequencies, just a couple of mm will ruin the phase, luckily we don't hear that and use amplitude for those frequencies instead. Flipping the phase won't help.


It sure does more than anything at all.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

MikeS said:


> It sure does more than anything at all.


what it does is causes cancellation between the two tweeters. no good. your ears will ignore the phase but still hear the comb filtering that is caused by flipping the phase


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Flipping one will just make things sound worse if they aren't already out of phase. It will sound sort of diffused if that's a proper description. Amplitude & axis adjustments are your friend with tweets.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

This might be difficult but it will clear up the amplitude issue. 
Unhook the mid from the passive and lower the gain to see if you can still reach enough output without them screaming at you. It will sound weird without the midrange but it will give you a lead into a fix.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Would be curious to hear your impressions once you get this sorted out. Even better - would love to see you/your car at the next meet around mid May in MA (no date/place has been set yet).


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

MikeS said:


> It sure does more than anything at all.


At 5khz the wavelength is just over 2.5 inches, moving your head half that distance essentially shifts the phase 180 degrees. So at those frequencies flipping the phase 180 degrees doesn't do any more than moving your head a couple of inches.


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## MikeS (May 23, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> what it does is causes cancellation between the two tweeters. no good. your ears will ignore the phase but still hear the comb filtering that is caused by flipping the phase


No it does not when you flip the phase on tweeterS meaning both of them. 

With passive setup and installing drivers far away from each other creates problems and its basic troubleshooting not taking much time at all before spending several hours on something else.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> remember, if your not using all of your eq your doing it wrong


If one tunes long enough, just because one wants to make it better, no matter how good it sounds already, and it does keep getting better, one day you reach a point, where one understands what that really means.

That said, there's again a big difference between understanding it and being a top 3 finalist. But yeah, if for instance you could see the eq settings on the top 3 cars at finals, you'd see what I mean.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> If one tunes long enough, just because one wants to make it better, no matter how good it sounds already, and it does keep getting better, one day you reach a point, where one understands what that really means.
> 
> That said, there's again a big difference between understanding it and being a top 3 finalist. But yeah, if for instance you could see the eq settings on the top 3 cars at finals, you'd see what I mean.


Your saying that like you have.. I actually heard the top 3 cars in the most stacked class, and am pretty close with the person who took 2nd, and i did see some of his eq settings.. 

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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

MikeS said:


> No it does not when you flip the phase on tweeterS meaning both of them.
> 
> With passive setup and installing drivers far away from each other creates problems and its basic troubleshooting not taking much time at all before spending several hours on something else.


If you flip phase on both tweeters your either fixing a cancellation at the crossover, which would boost the crossover frequency, or you would cancel some of those frequencies, which isn't good. No matter if his tweeters are acoustically in or out of phase, I can't see any reason why this would help his problem.

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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

actually sqnut, i think the reason i even asked him about his eq settings in the first place was right after i saw you say to lycancatt that if your not using all of your eq bands your car isnt as good as it can be or something like that. and question.. why do you always talk about top placing competitors like you know everything (or anything for that matter) about their car, install, and tune or as if your a top placing competitor yourself? not a single person who placed at finals last year is active on this site. considering that and that your on the complete opposite end of the globe, how are you obtaining information about their tunes?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> actually sqnut, i think the reason i even asked him about his eq settings in the first place was right after i saw you say to lycancatt that if your not using all of your eq bands your car isnt as good as it can be or something like that. and question.. why do you always talk about top placing competitors like you know everything (or anything for that matter) about their car, install, and tune or as if your a top placing competitor yourself? not a single person who placed at finals last year is active on this site. considering that and that your on the complete opposite end of the globe, how are you obtaining information about their tunes?


My experience tells me that pretty much every single band needs to be tweaked to get the overall response balance, tonality, dynamics etc. (AS HEARD not necessarily as measured). Unless you're hearing the small differences, that add up to the whole sound, you're not going to understand what I'm saying. Of course this would not be enough for you.

In one of KP's build thread I checked with KP how he uses the eq and he pretty much uses all the bands and each band is set in +/- 0.3 db steps during rough tuning and then in 0.1db steps for fine tuning. Is that good enough for you? 

Edited to remove extra comment.


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## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

Off- axe effect for 1 inch tweeter will start to work at frequencies higher than approximatelly 6750 Hz. Diffetent placing and angles will not help at the most critical range of 2-4 kHz. Try to make a little dip og 2-3dB at for example 3kHz at check how it sounds. Might help, at least a little.

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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

^^ Any tweeter will be omni directional at 2-4 khz so angling doesn't mean anything, which is why I suggested a cut in this range in my first post, before all the experts jumped in to talk about axis and reflections.


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## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

Correct. I would simply move the focus on the most critical range of the frequencies for a human ear. Driving myself at least 3 last years with a similar dip at 3 kHz and happy with it. 

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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

sqnut said:


> ^^ Any tweeter will be omni directional at 2-4 khz so angling doesn't mean anything, which is why I suggested a cut in this range in my first post, before all the experts jumped in to talk about axis and reflections.


This is correct. The only way angling a tweeter will make a difference (below it's beaming point) is if adjusting the angle ends up moving it closer to a surface. Assuming you are simply adjusting the angle, and not moving where it's mounted, there will be no difference until beaming.


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## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

Can we see results of measurement im your car? It w

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## MikeS (May 23, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> No matter if his tweeters are acoustically in or out of phase, I can't see any reason why this would help his problem.


Well, why not put gold spray painted horns in it and call it a day. No matter what phase they are in they should sound super.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

MikeS said:


> Well, why not put gold spray painted horns in it and call it a day. No matter what phase they are in they should sound super.


Again, the wavelengths of the frequencies that tweeters play are very short. Humans have evolved to localize high frequencies by amplitude, not phase. If you think about what phase is, then it makes sense because the slightest movement of your head can easily put frequencies all the way to 180 degrees out of phase. This is exactly why TA has much less of an affect at high frequencies than it does in low frequencies.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> My experience tells me that pretty much every single band needs to be tweaked to get the overall response balance, tonality, dynamics etc. (AS HEARD not necessarily as measured). Unless you're hearing the small differences, that add up to the whole sound, you're not going to understand what I'm saying. Of course this would not be enough for you.
> 
> In one of KP's build thread I checked with KP how he uses the eq and he pretty much uses all the bands and each band is set in +/- 0.3 db steps during rough tuning and then in 0.1db steps for fine tuning. Is that good enough for you?
> 
> Edited to remove extra comment.


Kp didn't even compete last year. Know anyone else's tuning secrets?

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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

MikeS said:


> Well, why not put gold spray painted horns in it and call it a day. No matter what phase they are in they should sound super.


No audio system will sound "super" in a car without eq

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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> Kp didn't even compete last year. Know anyone else's tuning secrets?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


The thread was from 2-3 years ago. Does it matter if he didn't compete? Would not competing make him loose his tuning skills? Stop arguing just for the sake of arguing.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> The thread was from 2-3 years ago. Does it matter if he didn't compete? Would not competing make him loose his tuning skills? Stop arguing just for the sake of arguing.


i just think its funny that you pretend like you know their cars inside and out.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

MikeS said:


> Well, why not put gold spray painted horns in it and call it a day. No matter what phase they are in they should sound super.


There seems to be some confusion.

1. If a pair of drivers are coherent in the time and response domain, they will be in phase with each other.

2. Upto about 1khz timing is more important, above 4khz response is more important and between 1-4 both play a part in achieving phase coherence.

3. Flipping the polarity will change the overall response and that is the difference you're hearing.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> i just think its funny that you pretend like you know their cars inside and out.


The problem is you have a fixed mindset and your brain only accepts data that validates that mindset. :shrug:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Even if that were true, that doesn't explain why you use "the top 3" cars as your go-to example yet you know nothing about them

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## truckguy (Sep 2, 2013)

I found this to be a good write up. It's a little old but still relevant. 

Car Audio Tweeter Install: A little "case study" - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> Even if that were true, that doesn't explain why you use "the top 3" cars as your go-to example yet you know nothing about them
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I only talk about how good those cars would sound and hence as a benchmark when we talk about SQ. How you read those posts is none of my concern and of no interest to me.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> I only talk about how good those cars would sound and hence as a benchmark when we talk about SQ. How you read those posts is none of my concern and of no interest to me.




im just trying to figure out how you go about posting this. you talk about "top 3 finalists" like you are one, or have something to do with those cars. your talking all high and mighty but truth is you havent got a clue with stored in those processors, nor do you have a clue what goes into building one of those cars (you havent even heard any of them for crying out loud). no one really does besides the people who worked on them. i only saw a glimpse of ones settings after the 2015 season was done



sqnut said:


> If one tunes long enough, just because one wants to make it better, no matter how good it sounds already, and it does keep getting better, one day you reach a point, where one understands what that really means.
> 
> That said, there's again a big difference between understanding it and being a top 3 finalist. But yeah, if for instance you could see the eq settings on the top 3 cars at finals, you'd see what I mean.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

If he does what I suggested he will know what the problem is.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> im just trying to figure out how you go about posting this. you talk about "top 3 finalists" like you are one, or have something to do with those cars. your talking all high and mighty but truth is you havent got a clue with stored in those processors, nor do you have a clue what goes into building one of those cars (you havent even heard any of them for crying out loud). no one really does besides the people who worked on them. i only saw a glimpse of ones settings after the 2015 season was done


Stop reading with a mindset and you'll understand that I'm only using those cars as a benchmark. When you read with a mindset, your brain reads a simple post and tells you what you want to hear, i.e. all the points you mentioned. Go ahead have the last word, I'm not responding to this topic anymore.


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

So who in this tread has a championship of their own? Or even a win or two


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

......


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

I mostly just shut up and read.....


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

RRizz said:


> I mostly just shut up and read.....


I wish more of us could do the same.


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

I feel ya, brother!!!!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> So who in this tread has a championship of their own? Or even a win or two


its all irrelevant. just pointing out how silly sqnut looks when he talks about "top cars" as if he built and tuned them


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

It's just as relevant as anything else. 
All this post is not is a swinging contest.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DC/Hertz said:


> It's just as relevant as anything else.
> All this post is not is a swinging contest.


Competed once with an unfinished install and a beat up prefab box. Got 2nd of 13 with the most basic install of the bunch in the money round. Took home an AF sub as a prize, but no trophy as our friend horizon pointed out lol. Still irrelevant 

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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> Competed once with an unfinished install and a beat up prefab box. Got 2nd of 13 with the most basic install of the bunch in the money round. Took home an AF sub as a prize, but no trophy as our friend horizon pointed out lol. Still irrelevant
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Modesty is an attribute that _all_ could learn from. An accomplishment nonetheless that many of us may not see.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Here's why OP's tweeters sound like ****:

When you take a radiator and you fire it into a hard surface, you're going to get a reflection. The same idea as taking a laser beam and firing into a mirror, it creates a reflection.

The thing that sucks is that the reflection is delayed in time. This does a couple of things:

1) It 'smears' all of the timing cues, because you're brain perceives the first reflection as if it was a distinct speaker
2) Because that reflection is delayed in time *you get peaks and dips all across the bandwidth of the tweeter.* AKA "comb filtering."

It's truly a dreadful combination.

For about half a decade I tinkered with all kinds of reflectors. Everything from reflectors made out of wood, to 3D printed reflectors designed with literally days of careful construction:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...iscussion/193753-shapeways-acoustic-lens.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/113901-bang-olufsen-tweeter-lens-idea-4.html

~ Sunshine ~ - diyAudio

(I could do this all night, I've probably built 50 different reflectors)

My 'eureka' moment was listening to the commercial reflectors from B&O, the ones you see in Audio and Mercedes. That was the moment when I learned that even the very best commercial reflectors don't sound so good.


I'm not saying that I'm 100% done with reflectors; sometimes you simply can't escape them, and sometimes they must be used.

But if you can avoid it? Yeah, **** reflectors.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Here's why OP's tweeters sound like ****:
> 
> When you take a radiator and you fire it into a hard surface, you're going to get a reflection. The same idea as taking a laser beam and firing into a mirror, it creates a reflection.
> 
> ...


i dont see how that explains why they sound bright.. i do see that it causes dips in response from comb filtering which was already mentioned though. riddle me this, could it be related to some sort of loading off the windshield?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Patrick Bateman said:


> 1) It 'smears' all of the timing cues, because you're brain perceives the first reflection as if it was a distinct speaker




Patrick, all location / phase cues are taken only from the direct sound, sound that arrives first. We don't locate each reflection as a separate speaker, because if this were the case, we would never have cohesion and sharpness in the image. 

The real effect of reflections is to make the incident sound seem louder, which is why for instance if you measure and set 200 hz and 1khz to 80 db and then toggle between the two, the 1 khz tone will be perceived as much louder. 




Patrick Bateman said:


> 2) Because that reflection is delayed in time *you get peaks and dips all across the bandwidth of the tweeter.* AKA "comb filtering."
> 
> It's truly a dreadful combination.


You're going to get combing in a car, no matter where one places speakers. It's a bunch of eq work to clear this up, problem solved. 

I've tuned a couple of friends cars that had mids / tweets in corners of dash and the width, depth and height were excellent. As Erin shows in the linked posts, you will get corner loading ~4khz with the tweets in the corners firing into the windshield, again that's just eq work.


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## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

Comming back to the topic of this thread. Strange that we can not get results of the measurements or/and settings of HU/processor. Without this informationi international. t is rather difficult to suggest something reasonable. More over, the sound perception is different from person to person, not least frequency dependent. In case of passive filters it is possible to attenuate brightness of the tweeters by adding a series resistor. One should just have some basic knowledge of the passive filters theory and some practical experience. Otherwise the result will be predictable negative. In some cases additional resistor might change the x-over frequency, which could be positive, as it will generate a dip in the most critical frequency range for hearing. In any case, only posiotioning of the tweeters will not solve the problem with extra brightness. One should not forget about a balance between cibilance, brightness, detalization, etc. It is kind of optimization task...

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## illnastyimpreza (Oct 25, 2006)

wow you guys are nuts! Lots of great info here.

I am running a Pioneer SPH DA120 https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_91017_Pioneer-AppRadio-4-SPH-DA120.html

Speakers are being powered by a PPI P600.2 https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Po...=1491678809&sr=8-4&keywords=ppi+2+channel+amp

I plan on hooking up the Pioneer Auto EQ (I had great luck with it in the past) Whata you guys think ?

I gotta pull the headunit to hook up the auto eq and check the passive tweeter jumper setting. This is where I'm at...


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

You don't have to use auto EQ to adjust it to your liking. Do some cutting in the upper range to see what results you get. I believe that set is passively crossed around 3500hz or so. The jumpers may help some though they're only -2db.


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## percy072 (Feb 13, 2014)

I admit that I'm still very much a newb at this but...I never understood why passives come with very little control over being able to attenuate the tweeters?? 

It doesn't take much for a tweeter to make you flinch, especially if firing up into glass. I've usually got my tweeters -10 db's below my midbass'. They are up on my pillars on axis.

Without EQ or some way to attenuate the tweeters more...does position really make a significant difference?


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## illnastyimpreza (Oct 25, 2006)

percy072 said:


> I admit that I'm still very much a newb at this but...I never understood why passives come with very little control over being able to attenuate the tweeters??
> 
> It doesn't take much for a tweeter to make you flinch, especially if firing up into glass. I've usually got my tweeters -10 db's below my midbass'. They are up on my pillars on axis.
> 
> Without EQ or some way to attenuate the tweeters more...does position really make a significant difference?


science/physics/math aside, I have ALWAYS had better luck cross firing on the A pillars......then again I have ALWAYS had very small cars !


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

percy072 said:


> I admit that I'm still very much a newb at this but...I never understood why passives come with very little control over being able to attenuate the tweeters??
> 
> It doesn't take much for a tweeter to make you flinch, especially if firing up into glass. I've usually got my tweeters -10 db's below my midbass'. They are up on my pillars on axis.
> 
> Without EQ or some way to attenuate the tweeters more...does position really make a significant difference?


A good way to find out is to experiment yourself. Not everything is going to apply to every situation. Some temporary placememts will sate your curiosity better than any suggestion or opinion ever could. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## illnastyimpreza (Oct 25, 2006)

Bayboy said:


> A good way to find out is to experiment yourself. Not everything is going to apply to every situation. Some temporary placememts will sate your curiosity better than any suggestion or opinion ever could.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


This is a great quote. I feel I need to experiment with tweeter placement more...


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## Alextaastrup (Apr 12, 2014)

Not only cars are different, but our ears and individual sound perception

Sendt fra min GT-I9505 med Tapatalk


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> i dont see how that explains why they sound bright.. i do see that it causes dips in response from comb filtering which was already mentioned though. riddle me this, could it be related to some sort of loading off the windshield?


If you look at the impulse response, you'll see a bunch of garbage in the impulse.

Even if you EQ the response flat, it still sounds "bright."

Yes, the reflections off the windshield will tend to exaggerate the lower treble while rolling off the upper treble.


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## strong*I*bumpin (Oct 3, 2005)

Get them bad boys on axis somehow,problem solved!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

strong*I*bumpin said:


> Get them bad boys on axis somehow,problem solved!


how is that problem solved?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Patrick Bateman said:


> If you look at the impulse response, you'll see a bunch of garbage in the impulse.
> 
> Even if you EQ the response flat, it still sounds "bright."
> 
> Yes, the reflections off the windshield will tend to exaggerate the lower treble while rolling off the upper treble.


Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here's a couple to illustrate my last post.









This is the frequency response of a waveguide that I made recently, versus a USD waveguide from twenty years ago

















This is the impulse of the two.

If you look at the frequency response of the two, you might use EQ to try and 'hammer' the old waveguide into the proper response shape. *But EQ won't do anything to fix that impulse response.*


That's the fundamental issue when you stick tweeter up on the dash, near a bunch of reflective surfaces. *Focus on the impulse response.*

To my ears, cleaning up the impulse response does a few things:

1) far and away, the biggest improvement is that it makes it so that you can listen to the stereo all day long. Have you ever listened to a stereo that sounded good at first, but after 30 minutes you just couldn't take it any more? (I'm looking at YOU Focal.) A good impulse isn't something you notice right away, it's something you come to appreciate after listening for a long while. Check out the impulse response measurements of Dynaudio and Dunlavy speakers at Stereophile.com, they know what they're doing.

2) A good impulse response CAN make the treble sound a little 'laid back.' On the flip side, a bad impulse response makes the treble sound brighter than the measurements would indicate. A good example of really bad impulse response is found in most prosound speakers made between the 70s and the 90s. If you ever listened to music in a club and it had a harsh metallic edge, that's the sound of a ****ty impulse.









Here's the dash of Gary Summer's car. Notice anything about this picture? 









The late great John Dunlavy did the same thing


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

ok, 
i take that to mean :
placement, and the treatment of the placement is the only thing that can
keep impulse in check ?
IOW : treat the car interior as a horn mouth. 
EQ, xover, t/a is of no help with impulse 

did i get that right ?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here's a couple to illustrate my last post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That brow. Bet the difference is drastic

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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Since a picture is worth a thousand words, here's a couple to illustrate my last post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Love that comment "I am looking at you FOCAL".... classic....

But I have the TBE tweeter and it's butter - totally transparent...

But maybe the lower models are a bit suspect.... 


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