# Best 4" mid range driver (on axis)



## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

I'm looking for a good on axis 4" midrange for my 3 way.

I thinking about buying the Hybrid Audio Legatia L4. Anybody got any better recommendations.


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## s2groove (May 18, 2007)

Best I've heard would be the scan-speak 12m, very articulate and can play quite low for such a small driver.

Best I've read about would be the pioneer prs 4'' mid.


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## SQCherokee (Mar 5, 2008)

holy front stage batman!


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

hahaha, you should check out my whole build.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33264


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## mulletboy2 (Aug 17, 2006)

You should definitely go the whole hog and extend those puppies all the way to the floor.. perhaps building a TL at the same time


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## Rbsarve (Aug 26, 2005)

It depends a little on what you are after. I have not heard the Legatias.

If you like your tweeter crossed low, the SEAS RM120 is an excellent choise.
Scan M12 is my overall favorite, hard to go wrong with and extends well.
Accuton's dome mid is magic if implemented right.


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## rotex (Mar 11, 2008)

Nice


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

First, let's get away from "Best". There is no best. 

Next, how high are you looking for them to extend? It looks like you're using a tweeter, so I'm assuming you're not looking for 20khz.

The 12M by ScanSpeak is a waste of money. Sure it sounds good, but it doesn't sound $200.00 good. 

For a rock solid 4" that extends pretty high on-axis and presents very little breakup, which can really screw with your top end, then I suggest the Vifa PL11. 

Or you could wait till April and try out the new RS100s that Parts Express will be releasing.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yes it does.



MiniVanMan said:


> The 12M by ScanSpeak is a waste of money. Sure it sounds good, but it doesn't sound $200.00 good.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

MiniVanMan said:


> The 12M by ScanSpeak is a waste of money. Sure it sounds good, but it doesn't sound $200.00 good.


Totally disagree. Sounds $400 good. We're talking Scan, not CDT here. 

IME, the 12M starts to "beam" (at least that's what I think's going on) around 6.3khz, so that might be one consideration in your install.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Yes it does.


No it doesn't.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

MiniVanMan said:


> No it doesn't.


FYI, already heard you oppinion in teh original post, you dont need to repeat yourself over and over.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

internecine said:


> FYI, already heard you oppinion in teh original post, you dont need to repeat yourself over and over.


Excuse me? How is one response to "Yes it does" qualify as "over and over"?? 

I have no problem with differing opinions, but if the only thing you have to say in argument to my original post is a simple three words, then I get to respond in kind.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

your post was stupid, you know it


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You are delusional or deaf if you think a Vifa PL is in the same league as the Rev 4.

The Scan is leaps and bounds better than the Vifa.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

I'm not delusional, but what makes the Scan worth $200.00? 

I know it sounds very good. There are plenty of drivers that sound very good that are a fraction of the cost. Hell the RS125 can boast many of the things the 12M can, but only costs a 1/10th of the price. What do you get for around $200.00 more, a more controlled, extended top end. Is that worth $200.00?

I'm not saying the 12M is a bad driver, I'm saying when it comes to price to performance it's really a poor driver. I bring up the PL11 because it has many of the same characteristics as the 12M but at a fraction of the price. Is the PL worth the money? Not really, but it's price is a lot closer to it's performance than the 12M is. In other words, the 12M is not worth $150.00 more (per driver) than the PL is.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

internecine said:


> your post was stupid, you know it


Which one, one or two? If it's two, why isn't hatedguys just as stupid? If it was one, then how about telling me why.

Have I done something to offend you?


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Come on now MVM, have you used the 12M or what? I respect your input and opinion, but feel you're writing checks your butt can't cash. I hate blanket statements as much as you....and we both will agree that "SQ" is subjective as your Grandmas world champion apple pie...but that mid is worth its price and then some.

I've read Zaphs price/performance breakdown that he posted here, too.


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## rutger j (Aug 1, 2005)

I´d say Genesis Studio 16´s topend driver, which is a 4".

Explained very vagly and easy it´s a coax, but it has only one vc.

For a competition vehicle, or for someone that´s phase sensitive it´s an superb driver.

For extra "sparkle" on the high notes a ribbon tweeter would do wonders  

Good luck

Sincerely
Rutger


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I didn't see the poster putting a price/performance limitation to his choices. And he asked for the best. Not the best for the dollar...but the best 4 out there. Granted that is atypical for someone to do on this forum- most are all about price/dollar, but he just asked for the best.

And it seems like there are a lot of people who think the Scan Revelator 4 is the best 4 going.



MiniVanMan said:


> I'm not delusional, but what makes the Scan worth $200.00?
> 
> I know it sounds very good. There are plenty of drivers that sound very good that are a fraction of the cost. Hell the RS125 can boast many of the things the 12M can, but only costs a 1/10th of the price. What do you get for around $200.00 more, a more controlled, extended top end. Is that worth $200.00?
> 
> I'm not saying the 12M is a bad driver, I'm saying when it comes to price to performance it's really a poor driver. I bring up the PL11 because it has many of the same characteristics as the 12M but at a fraction of the price. Is the PL worth the money? Not really, but it's price is a lot closer to it's performance than the 12M is. In other words, the 12M is not worth $150.00 more (per driver) than the PL is.


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## Rbsarve (Aug 26, 2005)

rutger j said:


> For extra "sparkle" on the high notes a ribbon tweeter would do wonders


The webshop is always open for you my friend! 

Yeah the Genesis (Thiel) are really nice too.


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## Beau (Oct 8, 2005)

Rbsarve said:


> Yeah the Genesis (Thiel) are really nice too.


No they aren't.











Sorry - just kidding.


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## CobraVin (Jul 31, 2007)

i like hearing everyones opinion but it seems the orginal poster was asking what was best on axis...........not for the money........ or best bang for the buck, if the vifa is truely equal in sound and build quality fine but i doubt it is truely equal
i dont own either in 4" but i do own scans and vifa pl's(larger), but i think its good info if you have heard both drivers and they are so close in both that its not worth it, it may save someone who is looking to save some dough, but some just want the best with no qualifiers


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## jj_diamond (Oct 3, 2007)

artcali said:


> I'm looking for a good on axis 4" midrange for my 3 way.
> 
> I thinking about buying the Hybrid Audio Legatia L4. Anybody got any better recommendations.


why HAT's? what kind of sound reproduction are you looking to get from the 4" driver?


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

i don't know where you are located but the pioneer prs 4" might be more accessible to you. 

to give you different option, the carbon fiber audax 4" is good also... i wish you could still find the aerogels though (hm100z0). also look at the aura and seas nextel 4's.


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

such an open ended question without knowing details.

Are you going passive or active? What other drivers are you using?

I have an extensive collection of 4" drivers and really could choose to use any out of my top 6 and be happy, but it's hard to suggest without knowing more...


by the way, I am a huge dayton fan, but they aren't in comparison with the seas and ss drivers, among a few others...


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## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

i've used only two 4" drivers ppi carbon fiber 4" and scanspeak 12m 4.5".

the scanspeak driver is by far the better of the two.

awesome specs:

high efficiency
high extension 
minimal 40w rating
awesome build quality


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Mmmm I guess in comparison with other consumer grade stuff.



Fixtion said:


> awesome specs:
> 
> high efficiency


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

FoxPro5 said:


> Come on now MVM, have you used the 12M or what? I respect your input and opinion, but feel you're writing checks your butt can't cash. I hate blanket statements as much as you....and we both will agree that "SQ" is subjective as your Grandmas world champion apple pie...but that mid is worth its price and then some.
> 
> I've read Zaphs price/performance breakdown that he posted here, too.


I haven't used it, but I have heard it. Not in a car, but rather a home loudspeaker. Is it a good driver. Absolutely! I'm just saying I don't think it's worth the money. 

I read the same Zaph breakdown, but I don't agree with his RS52 statement. I don't like the RS52. However, I haven't heard it in a home environment where I think it probably would excel. So, I guess not having heard the RS52 in the home and not having heard the 12M in a car makes my argument a little skewed. However who here can say they've heard either when they start spouting off about the 12M being the greatest thing out there? 

I love the Scan 18W. I think it's a very good driver. I think it loses a lot of it's value when you throw it in a car, and there are other drivers for much less that can sound very good as well. 

I understand that the OP asked for the best. That is absolutely subjective, and all I was really trying to do was get people to stop just throwing around the standard responses. What I was trying to invoke was a response that details "why" the 12M is such a great driver. I can go to any forum on the web, and get a slew of different answers on what the best 4" driver is out there.

Unfortunately, when people start going on about one driver or another they can't seem to explain it without spewing a bunch of garbage "audiophile" terms. 

The OP is looking to put two TMM configured "monitors" on his dash in an extreme "nearfield" alignment. Are the best qualities of the 12M going to be realized in that configuration? 

We can debate all day long what driver is better than another. When you take cost out of the equation, then anything Scan is really hard to beat. I'll concede that. However, I won't concede that "anything Scan" is the best in every situation, which is what gets thrown around here everytime somebody asks this damn question. 

In the end, I've gotten attacked for calling into question the 12M, but nobody has stepped up and actually defended the 12M in any way other than saying "it's the best". Somebody step and give some good quantifiable reasons why "it's the best". Audiophile terms not accepted.


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## jj_diamond (Oct 3, 2007)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4025&page=2


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

MiniVanMan said:


> Somebody step and give some good quantifiable reasons why "it's the best". Audiophile terms not accepted.


The lower end is spacious, open and robust. The middle mid of the midrange is slightly opaque, yet unveiled like an orchid blossom. The upper end mid is enchanting. The top end, well how can I put this...it just dances, like a pretty ballerina...so light and delicate, but sweet...like candy, sweeeeeeet candy. But not too sweet, now - just right sweet. Overall the response is orgasmic!!! Boing!! But not like premature either, just totally jizzum SQ.  

That good??


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## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

*link*

*http://www.zaphaudio.com/smalltest/*

*-fixtion*


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## ~thematt~ (Sep 14, 2007)

Flex 4 or its Cquenze equivalent (C15). Its slightly bigger, but its also slightly better


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## pianist (Mar 10, 2006)

FoxPro5 said:


> The lower end is spacious, open and robust. The middle mid of the midrange is slightly opaque, yet unveiled like an orchid blossom. The upper end mid is enchanting. The top end, well how can I put this...it just dances, like a pretty ballerina...so light and delicate, but sweet...like candy, sweeeeeeet candy. But not too sweet, now - just right sweet. Overall the response is orgasmic!!! Boing!! But not like premature either, just totally jizzum SQ.
> 
> That good??


ROFLMFAO!!!
i just spit a mouthful of water laughing at this


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## BillPleasant (Nov 23, 2007)

At the risk of being accused of sheer bias, I just ended up installing the L4s in my car and am positive that these will be the last mid I put in my car.

I did a lot of listening (note I didn't say 'testing') with them in my studio both in large (for a 4") enclosures and in an "IB" install (read: installed in a stud cavity in an 8 foot wall in the room) and I have to say that this is a special driver. Played them full range and I would peg the response at 75K - 12K and natural sounding all the way until I pushed them really hard with a BGW 250D. They were kind of honky in the sealed boxes (About 1.5 cubic feet) but very, very impressive in the IB setup...not suprising considering that's what they're made for.

In the past I have used the Scan (awesome frickin' driver,) an Adire-designed CSS 4, and the Vifa. The L4 is by far my favorite by far for its ability to play such a wide band easily and for sounding so natural doing it. I would not hesitate to use a pair along with a low-hitting midbass in a four speaker system and call it a day. Seriously.

After the L4, in order, I LOVE the Scan, then the CSS, then the Vifa.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

pics bill.....pics


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

looking at the ops instal, i think i see about 10 or 12 drivers up front?

does it matter what he uses?

how about this obviously serious music lover gets some help instead of waving your e penises around anymore 

he needs help, give him some.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

60ndown said:


> how about this obviously serious music lover gets some help instead of waving your e penises around anymore


Why don't you go first, genius. Don't have an e-peener? U gotta mangina?


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

BillPleasant said:


> At the risk of being accused of sheer bias, I just ended up installing the L4s in my car and am positive that these will be the last mid I put in my car.
> 
> I did a lot of listening (note I didn't say 'testing') with them in my studio both in large (for a 4") enclosures and in an "IB" install (read: installed in a stud cavity in an 8 foot wall in the room) and I have to say that this is a special driver. Played them full range and I would peg the response at 75K - 12K and natural sounding all the way until I pushed them really hard with a BGW 250D. They were kind of honky in the sealed boxes (About 1.5 cubic feet) but very, very impressive in the IB setup...not suprising considering that's what they're made for.
> 
> ...


In your experience with both drivers, what do you feel the L4 can do that the 12M cannot??


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

~thematt~ said:


> Flex 4 or its Cquenze equivalent (C15). Its slightly bigger, but its also slightly better


That's a great mid. And about the most beautifully constructed driver I've owned.  Had a pair of the C-Quenze 15H drivers that Per made for me a few years ago. Although, to say it's "slightly" bigger is a bit of a misnomer.  AT's idea of a 4" driver is every bit as large as any other mfr.'s 15 cm driver... mine dwarfed the pair of 12M's I had at the time.


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## BillPleasant (Nov 23, 2007)

Mainly plays higher more cleanly. That may not matter to some people though, I realize that.

I don't know how to describe the 'sound' difference. The Scan is outstanding, no doubt, but side by side, I got more of a sense of ...I don't know..."openness" or "transparency" to my ears. You definately don't go wrong with either one...

In my car, it is different than the OP install, mine are completely flat in the kicks and the extended range helps in that I don't have to use a tweeter down low, which I did with the Scans. On-Axis I still prefered the L4...but not by as wide a margin.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

FoxPro5 said:


> The lower end is spacious, open and robust. The middle mid of the midrange is slightly opaque, yet unveiled like an orchid blossom. The upper end mid is enchanting. The top end, well how can I put this...it just dances, like a pretty ballerina...so light and delicate, but sweet...like candy, sweeeeeeet candy. But not too sweet, now - just right sweet. Overall the response is orgasmic!!! Boing!! But not like premature either, just totally jizzum SQ.
> 
> That good??


The idea of a pair of these drivers mated with a Zuki amp plunged me into a 14 hour long SQ coma from which I just recovered


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Tang Band W4-1337SA is excellent


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

dragonrage said:


> Tang Band W4-1337SA is excellent



Yes, it is. I use it with no tweeters...none needed...


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

60ndown said:


> looking at the ops instal, i think i see about 10 or 12 drivers up front?
> 
> does it matter what he uses?
> 
> ...


I'm not using that setup.

I tore it apart and did this one instead:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33264





http://a211.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/33/l_eedb88ba50e613642e9c6689b1e55ad2.jpg


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

WIth that much modification, why not just create a center drive vehicle?


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## Soonergolf (Feb 9, 2008)

HAVE to get some of those FoxPro5 listened too !!


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## ~thematt~ (Sep 14, 2007)

kevin k. said:


> That's a great mid. And about the most beautifully constructed driver I've owned.  Had a pair of the C-Quenze 15H drivers that Per made for me a few years ago. Although, to say it's "slightly" bigger is a bit of a misnomer.  AT's idea of a 4" driver is every bit as large as any other mfr.'s 15 cm driver... mine dwarfed the pair of 12M's I had at the time.


I know, they're huge!! But a 4" (or a 5 1/2" if your picky ) mid that can easily hit 80Hz, and go all the way up to 5kHz without a sweat, and sound absolutely gorgeous whilst doing it, is IMO the best in the books. 

I like the L4 a lot, but prefer the dynamics from oversized units.


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

I can't argue with your logic, a 5/14" driver will out perform a 4" for mid range duties (all things being equal) every time.

Still a set of array's would be a better upgrade as well.


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## dkh (Apr 2, 2008)

Hello
First post so take it easy.
I like the diversity of drivers people have used and like any forum the diversity of opinions ranging from silly to great.

My own opinion is the L4 is the best wide range or band speaker I have heard out of the wide variety of competition cars I have listened to... It's no wonder why the HAT teams are sweeping the competitions.

I imagined that it was the tuning that was the deciding factor but having listened and own the Legatia speakers, I am changing.

I have not heard a speaker that can convincingly cover from 110Hz through to 8Khz (24dB slopes) and do it with 100-110dB of power! 

Taking cabin gain into consideration... some might not need a dedicated midbass driver if the sub was to come in at 50-60Hz for general listening pleasure!

This is just my opinion.

BTW - I belong to no team but will participate in my first SQ competition shortly for build and tuning advice.


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## less (Nov 30, 2006)

Could someone please describe to the best of their abilities the difference between the Scan 12M and the Seas RM120 assuming both are pulling average midrange duty?

Also, has anyone heard a Seas or Scan speak driver that is a designated midwoofer (Scan 15M or Seas Nextel 5" MW) doing designate midrange only work? If so, is the 12M or RM120 better sounding in the mids to the extent that you can hear the difference? I guess I ask since the Scan 12Ms are $285 vs. the 15w which comes in at around $222 -and - the Seas MW line can be had for $160ea vs 192 for the mid designated.

Lastly, it seems like I am not alone in tending to prefer a larger sized midrange to a smaller one (5-6" vs. the standard 4" cone). I'm seriously considering picking up a 5 or 5.5 Scan/Seas midwoofer right now, but all the talk about the 12M is making me worry that I might really miss out on something of I go that way!

Any advice from someone who is experienced? Incidentally, what I get will have a dedicated pair of McIntosh 50watt channels assigned to them alone and will be installed in a fiberglass kick panel that will probably be aperiodically ported... but possibly just vented into the floor.

Thanks in advance for any enlightenment you can shed on this matter... although with all of the differing opinions, I may end up more confused and end up staying with a two way (plus sub) system and saving a couple hundred bucks!!

Less/Jim


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

I created this thread to find a suitable midrange for my setup:










My search is over.

For more info on my build, go to:

Post #38 
@
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio/33264-inspiring-community-go-2.html



The argument for me came down to "Dome speakers or Cone".

So I tried them both.

I started with a Morel CDM 54(dome). I thought, by design, the dome was more for off axis listening due to the design of the speaker. I've also had a DLS UR2.5(dome) and DLS Iridium 3"(dome). And I found that Dome speakers are *better listened too off axis*. During *on axis *listening, the sound is harsh, and I found myself curving it down with the EQ around 2K. Oh, by the way, The Morel CDM 54 was better, *"for me"*, than the DLS UR2.5. But the Iridium 3" Mid Dome was slightly better than the CDM 54. I also had a Dynaudio Mid Dome set, but didn't fully test it since I lost one of them.


As for Cones, I was considering the ones from Hybrid audio due to their frequent cameo's in the proffesional caraudio world in America. But when it came down to people who had money, I mean lots of *MONEY*, they bought either Focal Utopia Be's or Rainbow Platinum's. I'm talking about people who modify their Lambo's and SLR's and shove aftermarket audio in it.(no offense to those with losts of money, but don't own an exotic, or do not use the above forementioned speakers)(there must be a damn good reason, and perhaps, some history to why not)(by no means am I saying these are the best)(there is probably better)(but I'm sure, just a few)(lets not bring home audio and custom limited edition into this)


Then I saw a set of Focal Utopia Be drivers on Ebay in my price range. So I got the Focal Utopia 3w2be Midranges(cone) and 6W3be Bass speakers(cone)(awesome sound in my sealed enclosures). First of all, these mids are from the Focal Utopia Be Kit No.7 range. This 3way is certainly one of the best 3ways money can buy. There are very few speakers up here.(ie. Rainbow Platinum line) Sure these are expensive, but they are expensive for a reason. For example, in the focal utopia be tw's, *"Focal"* used beryllium, and beryillium is around 100 times the price of gold(according to their ad ). The TW's alone still fetch about $1000USD used, on Ebay (09'). These are the same/similar TW's that focal uses on some of their Flagship home tower speakers(http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/102639/1035770.aspx). And many home audio connoisseur's will testify the greatness of these TW's. So these are probably the next TW's I will get, and probably the last .

So after installing the Focal Utopia Be 3W2 Mid's,

The first impression I got was,....

So, the conclusion is, *FOR ME*, the *FOCAL UTOPIA 3W2 be* is the *BEST MIDRANGE* I have tested.


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## artcali (Feb 1, 2008)

The Focal Utopia Be 3W2 Midrange is so good to me, I'm not even curious for anything better. I am completely satisfied with these speakers. 

Even if there is something better, I'm not going to bother. Unless it is for free.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

1) 3w2 (first time if FULLY happy with a driver no need to change it out)
2) 12m (best sealed imo)
3) L4 best cost vs performance of the bunch, wish the frame and magnet were smaller for easier dash mounting
4) md102

in that order and yes I have used them all


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