# Regarding the Review on the Legatia L3's



## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

I heard it through the grapevine that the Legatia's used in the review test are being sold here:

http://www.elitecaraudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=134230

If so, I'm curious as to how such an in depth review could have been performed on these drivers if they only were used for 10 min? Additionally, the Legatia owners manual states that it requires 25 hours playing time in order for the driver to be properly broken in to achieve optimum performance. If this is the case how reliable is the testing that was done on these drivers? The initial review done on this forum was not really a favorable one and I'm sure it cost Hybrid Audio a number of potential customers. Had the proper break in proceedures been followed the test results could have been significantly different. 

Either that or the drivers in question were not the ones used in the test, or the seller is misrepresenting the actual use time. In any event I think some clarification on this issue is needed.


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

A few years ago I had taken some NIB Godfather 15's to the Adire open house so that I could get the T/S measured for the subs. While Dr. Dave was preparing to measure the subs, I asked him if we needed to worry about the subs never being used, and therefore not broken in. His basic reply is that "break in" is over exaggerated (usually by marketing).

Think about it. A speaker is cycling hundreds to thousands of times per second. At that rate, it really doesn't take long for the suspension to settle into its operational state. Break in is done on the order of a few seconds, not hours.

It is possible that most cases where people report audible changes during "break in", is actually due to psychoacoustic affects, not measurable changes to the speaker.

Side note - A simple 100 hz tone @ 10 hrs = 3.6 * 10^6 cycles. If a speaker is still breaking in at that point, its broken.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^I can tell you from personal experience that my L3's sounded completely different after about 20 or so hours of play time than they did out of the box. 

Whether or not that shows up on some measurement, I don't know---but I have always put more faith in what I hear over some random measurements derived when I wasn't around. . .


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> ^I can tell you from personal experience that my L3's sounded completely different after about 20 or so hours of play time than they did out of the box.
> 
> Whether or not that shows up on some measurement, I don't know---but I have always put more faith in what I hear over some random measurements derived when I wasn't around. . .


Thats fine. I am more apt to put faith in someone who actually engineers/designs/builds speakers - regardless of whether or not I think I hear something differently. If the speaker is done changing very rapidly, it very well could be our brains that take a while to break in to the new sound.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

PlanetGranite said:


> Thats fine. I am more apt to put faith in someone who actually engineers/designs/builds speakers. If the speaker is done changing very rapidly, it very well could be our brains that take a while to break in to the new sound.


The engineer/designer who built the L3's recommends a minimum 25 hr break in period. Every person who I have spoken with who owns these speakers noticed an audiable improvement after that time. If Scott Buwalda ever looks in on this topic I think he could give some specific and measurable changes from out-of-the-box to properly broken in. These aren't the only speakers that benefit from a break in period. It really comes down to how the speaker was manufactured and the materials used in the construction of the driver.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

PlanetGranite said:


> . I am more apt to put faith in someone who actually engineers/designs/builds speakers - regardless of whether or not I think I hear something differently.


Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but are you saying that you trust someone to tell you what you hear more than what you actually hear yourself?  If so---wow. . .


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Leg 3's were well broken in... this can definitely be done in well under 20 hrs. I have to agree with PlanetGranite, David Hyre, Linkwitz, etc. on this one. 

I'm sorry that some people felt my review was negative/biased/unreliable. I would only ask that if you're going to say that, please provide some reason or evidence as to why (doesn't apply to anyone in this thread, just in general). Alot of times I find that when it really comes down to it, people don't have any legitimate complaints they are just upset that their favorite driver didn't measure up.

At the rate things are going, should I just simply stop mentioning anything unflattering about a driver? It's really nothing to me... I post these things for the benefit of the community. It's not my intent in anyway to cost anyone any business, especially someone as respected as Scott B.


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

Great! So now we have engineers vs. engineers!  Just one of those topics thats always polarized.  

Not trying to argue with anyone, really just curious ... but if the spider and surround are still changing after 3.6 MILLION cycles, why does it stop changing?

And yes there are measureable shifts in parameters during break in. The epoxy/resin used in the spider needs to loosen, along with the surround material.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> The engineer/designer who built the L3's recommends a minimum 25 hr break in period. Every person who I have spoken with who owns these speakers noticed an audiable improvement after that time. If Scott Buwalda ever looks in on this topic I think he could give some specific and measurable changes from out-of-the-box to properly broken in. These aren't the only speakers that benefit from a break in period. It really comes down to how the speaker was manufactured and the materials used in the construction of the driver.


 Can you provide an example and evidence of this? It's been my experience that even large drivers with the stiffest suspensions can be fully broken in with less than 30 minutes of hard play.

I think the question is whether or not a prolonged break-in period of 20hrs would affect the performance parameters of this driver, such as a BL curve, frequency response, or non-linear distortion plot.

In my experience, it does not.


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## STI<>GTO (Aug 8, 2005)

npdang said:


> At the rate things are going, should I just simply stop mentioning anything unflattering about a driver? It's really nothing to me... I post these things for the benefit of the community. It's not my intent in anyway to cost anyone any business, especially someone as respected as Scott B.


Please don't!

How well a driver performs is ultimately up to the end user. You (npdang) provide measurements and your opinion. If a tube amp introduces measureable distortion, does that mean it sucks, and you shouldn't buy it?

Rick


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> ^I can tell you from personal experience that my L3's sounded completely different after about 20 or so hours of play time than they did out of the box.
> 
> Whether or not that shows up on some measurement, I don't know---but I have always put more faith in what I hear over some random measurements derived when I wasn't around. . .


 I've experienced that effect as well, although I tend to believe it's more pyschological than anything else as your ears become more accustomed to the sound and you're able to pick out new things. At least to me, it makes sense that the longer you listen to any speaker the more you will "notice" new things about it. That doesn't necessarily mean that the speaker is actually changing in any substantive way Imho.


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but are you saying that you trust someone to tell you what you hear more than what you actually hear yourself?  If so---wow. . .


Nope. I was stating that if an engineer (Dr. Dave) tells me that the speaker in question is done changing in an insignificant amount of time, I am willing to accept that if I percieve a change in sound after that time period, the perceived change could easily be caused by psychoacoustcial affects. Not due to the speaker itself.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

My only problem with NPDang's test (and it applies to all of them--not just the L3)----is that he is a "manufacturer". He sells a speaker. How much faith would you have if JL Audio tested a Kicker product and gave the results? Why does NPDang get a free unquestioned pass? I don't think any "manufacturer" should be testing any other manufacturer's products. Whether they want to admit it or not (to themselves or anyone else)--they have a vested interest in the outcome. I would say the same thing if Hybrid Audio purchased a DIYMA product and released their "results". Scott should not do that---and I sincerely hope that he never does. I would not want to be associated (meaning own their products) with a company that would do that. 


As to my experience--Trust me they sounded different---it wasn't just getting use to them. A lot of those hours was spent on pink noise and I didn't sit around listening to that. There was also another competitor who bought the L3's at the same time. After his initial listening he emailed me with grave concerns about them. He also called Scott. Scott said put them on some pink noise for 25 hours and then listen. He did that--and by the time we got to the show on that Sunday--he was  . That wasn't becoming familiar with the products. 

Also--the ad in question says--less than 10 minutes play time---That is a very short play time.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

I know this is the free internet and all, but im REALLY beginning to get perturbed by these out of nowhere complaints about a review that was posted MONTHS AGO

this is the same thing that happend with stupid rainbow tweeter thing

this site has thousands of post,and many personal opinions 

in the same thread some guy posted a VERY WELL written review of the legatias then disappeared*??????* I was hoping he stayed around as that review was awesome lol

in the same thread I posted a somewhat favorable review of the same driver

check ANY technical review site and NONE of them "prime" a speaker for 20+hours before they test it. I dont think folks drive around in there cars and wait 20hrs to post reviews on any forum and say NOW the speaker is alive, cmon now

npdang is not the law of speaker review, and 90% cant even understand the graphs so I REALLY doubt this one site cost any manufacture any sales costs

if it caused that MUCH damage based upon this review, lets all chip in to send one to zaphaudio, send one to Mark site whatever

id be interested to see what they report--any takers?? 

lets see what they say about it, bet its very close technically speaking

and yes EVERYONE knows not every speaker that test well "sounds good" and vice versa. 

they are cool speakers to me, with limitations, they are not the BEST 3" on the market, nor are they the worst

hope you guys stick around and contribute *YOUR* opinions on this driver, and not just criticize npdang for some testing inadequacy


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^Those tests did have an effect. In Spartanburg at a Regional event this weekend I had many people ask to listen to my L3's and probably 75% mentioned that review before listening to them. Funnier comments were made about that test after they heard them. . .


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> My only problem with NPDang's test (and it applies to all of them--not just the L3)----is that he is a "manufacturer". He sells a speaker. How much faith would you have if JL Audio tested a Kicker product and gave the results? Why does NPDang get a free unquestioned pass?


if they were CONSISTENT then science has no bias IMO, if you read the reviews that he has tested the SCIENCE has no bias, his personal SUBJECTIVE tastes are one thing, which are ALSO consitent if you read them all

some like warm, some like super detail

I agree with the manfucture bias can be an issue, but you have to take each review with a grain of salt, IMO

but posts of these sort tend to come off as diyma bashing without ANY contrary data to back it up

just cuase you say you like it, is no more valuable than dang sayin he likes it

but numbers dont lie IMO

and you really think the legatias are that good?? man what else have you used?? id be curious to know that?


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

I heard the Legatia and I think it's nothing special.
It's in Scott's world finals car.
Does it need to be broken in some more?


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

DigitalBoomer said:


> The initial review done on this forum was not really a favorable one and I'm sure it cost Hybrid Audio a number of potential customers.


With all due respect, there are other less than favorable reviews on this site. Will you and Andy be posting similar threads regarding those?


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

ClinesSelect said:


> With all due respect, there are other less than favorable reviews on this site. Will you and Andy be posting similar threads regarding those?


BINGO!!!


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorry, but I can't separate my interest in this hobby from the fact that I sell speakers to fund it, nor should I have to. In fact there seems to be an overwhelming demand for these kind of reviews... maybe I should just stop doing it altogether and focus more on marketing and hype?

I just don't see a conflict of interest here... these measurements are easily repeatable by anyone! What would I have to gain by distorting measurements that anyone can clearly duplicate and verify for themself?

And how exactly do I sell more BG neo's or DIYMA subs from reviewing the Leg 3? Or praising the numerous Seas, Scan-Speak drivers, Peerless, TC, etc. drivers out there?

On a side note, did you try breaking in the driver with a large signal full range pink noise for 5 or 10 minutes and then compare it with the driver that had been broken in for 20 hrs? I'm betting it would have been very similar.

The ad in question probably only refers to the played time of the owner, not including the testing. I think a PM would have been more appropriate than dragging this into a public forum as the drivers are still pending sale.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> ^Those tests did have an effect. In Spartanburg at a Regional event this weekend I had many people ask to listen to my L3's and probably 75% mentioned that review before listening to them. Funnier comments were made about that test after they heard them. . .


 That's hardly conclusive. 

How about taking a driver like the Trius and playing a matched 400hz tone and asking which driver sounds cleaner? 

I never claimed that no one would like these drivers or that in certain situations that distortion would not be audible.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

you cant test a speaker when you buy it, then listen to it for 20 hours and then say it sounds different.

get 2 speakers, break one in for 20 hours while not listening to it. get a second speaker, break it in for 10 minuets, again dont listen to that speaker either.

then mark each speaker on the bottom differently. have someone set up a test for you, where you hear both speakers right after eachother without your knowledge of which one is being played. do this 10 times and then come back to me and tell me if you could pick out your better sounding speaker 80% of the time.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> ^I can tell you from personal experience that my L3's sounded completely different after about 20 or so hours of play time than they did out of the box.
> 
> Whether or not that shows up on some measurement, I don't know---but I have always put more faith in what I hear over some random measurements derived when I wasn't around. . .


The brain is a very imprecise instrument. Changes can be attributed to all sorts of causes if you don't properly isolate variables. That's why measurements are vital -- so that you can pinpoint whether or not the observed changes are due to the speaker itself or some other stimulus or state change.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> ^Those tests did have an effect. In Spartanburg at a Regional event this weekend I had many people ask to listen to my L3's and probably 75% mentioned that review before listening to them. Funnier comments were made about that test after they heard them. . .



okay try this, buy one of these (small investment $29.95)










http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=2356575.22497&pid=2145

drop it into the SAME enclosure (back mount them so no need to do any more fabricating and then report back 

like I said before if you like seas drivers (super clean very revealing) youll keep this driver, if you like it warm (more forgiving, more distortion but very pleasing) youll keep the legatia

but then compare the price


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> My only problem with NPDang's test (and it applies to all of them--not just the L3)----is that he is a "manufacturer". He sells a speaker. How much faith would you have if JL Audio tested a Kicker product and gave the results? Why does NPDang get a free unquestioned pass?


Who gives him a free unquestioned pass? I think I speak for most when I say that I trust that he didn't fabricate the data that he posted. That doesn't mean that I have to share his opinion. In fact, on some issues I don't. But I think he's made it abundantly clear that his opinion is his opinion, and that only the data he provides is fact. Also, recall that he recently offered to leave his opinion out of the measurements he provides but that several people urged him to still post his opinion. So basically, I don't see how you're justified in suggesting that he's misrepresenting product, especially when he heaps praise on other drivers all the time. Why should he have to censor himself?



> As to my experience--Trust me they sounded different---it wasn't just getting use to them.


There's no possible way of knowing that based on the way you performed the test.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

x2 on markz' response. if you have been here long enough and have read npdang's reviews, all of his reviews are subjective but you can tell he tries to be unbiased as much as possible. thats all you can ask of a reviewer.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

npdang said:


> The ad in question probably only refers to the played time of the owner, not including the testing. I think a PM would have been more appropriate than dragging this into a public forum as the drivers are still pending sale.


That was the answer to the question I was asking. Thanks for clearing that up. You are probably correct...a PM would have been more appropriate. I guess I was correct that the speakers being sold were the same ones that were used in the test?


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

newtitan said:


> okay try this, buy one of these (small investment $29.95)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I typed out a huge response and my computer crashed. I'll do it again later.

That speaker won't fit in my L3 enclosure. I have dash pods that were built specifically for the L3. There is no "back loading" it. 

I will buy that driver after finals---I don't want to mess with the 17-18's out of 20 and the 8-9's out of 10 (IASCA and MECA respecitively) that I am getting with the L3's. Comments like "nice midrange" from Harry Kimura tells me to focus my energies in other areas of my truck (like my midbass which sucks ass right now).


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> Who gives him a free unquestioned pass?
> 
> 
> There's no possible way of knowing that based on the way you performed the test.


Look at the responses to this thread.

You are right---there is no way of measuring what I heard. I admitted that in the first post. I just know what I personally heard. That is all I ever comment on. What I have PERSONAL experience with.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

internecine said:


> you cant test a speaker when you buy it, then listen to it for 20 hours and then say it sounds different.
> 
> get 2 speakers, break one in for 20 hours while not listening to it. get a second speaker, break it in for 10 minuets, again dont listen to that speaker either.
> 
> then mark each speaker on the bottom differently. have someone set up a test for you, where you hear both speakers right after eachother without your knowledge of which one is being played. do this 10 times and then come back to me and tell me if you could pick out your better sounding speaker 80% of the time.


Sorry that ship has sailed. Not something I thought of doing. The fact that 2 of us heard the same thing though (in two different parts of the state), makes me think it was fairly accurate though.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

npdang said:


> That's hardly conclusive.
> 
> How about taking a driver like the Trius and playing a matched 400hz tone and asking which driver sounds cleaner?
> 
> I never claimed that no one would like these drivers or that in certain situations that distortion would not be audible.


I don't listen to test tones. I listen to music. Judges in competition listen to music. If the "negative" aspects of a speaker are not heard in music--does it matter if it is there? I don't think so. 

No one that has listened to the speaker has heard the distortion. I have started specifically asking. So far you are the only one who has heard it.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

newtitan said:


> I know this is the free internet and all, but im REALLY beginning to get perturbed by these out of nowhere complaints about a review that was posted MONTHS AGO


The speaker that was tested being sold today is what brought this up. The seller states it was used for 10 minutes. That is why some people got confused. How do you do a detailed test in 10 minutes? 

driver



> check ANY technical review site and NONE of them "prime" a speaker for 20+hours before they test it. I dont think folks drive around in there cars and wait 20hrs to post reviews on any forum and say NOW the speaker is alive, cmon now


The tester said he broke it in for 20 hours.


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## tdgesq (Apr 16, 2006)

Well, this thread started out with the assertion that breaking in the L3's with 25 hours of playing time could alter the objective measurements and the subjective review. This article is interesting : 

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/loudspeakers/SpeakerBreakIn.php

As is this one:

http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/BurnInLegend.pdf

I have not seen any evidence presented that the L3 would be an exception. Instead I see what in my mind has been a disturbing trend of late - questioning the integrity of the reviewer.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> The speaker that was tested being sold today is what brought this up. The seller states it was used for 10 minutes. That is why some people got confused. How do you do a detailed test in 10 minutes?
> 
> driver
> 
> ...


That's the jist of this topic. Npdang tested the speaker and said he broke it in for 20 hours then those same speakers show up for sale advertised as new-in-the-box with only 10 min. playing time. I posted the question here to find out who was making the misrepresentation.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

newtitan said:


> if they were CONSISTENT then science has no bias IMO, if you read the reviews that he has tested the SCIENCE has no bias, his personal SUBJECTIVE tastes are one thing, which are ALSO consitent if you read them all


Again, I'm not saying anything negative about NPDang or DIYMA. Someone once said that it isn't impropriety that matters it is the appearance of impropriety that matters. That is what my comments come from.





> I agree with the manfucture bias can be an issue, but you have to take each review with a grain of salt, IMO


Bingo. That is what I was saying. Unfortunately several people take the reviews as the gospel and start spreading items all over the internet. Someone last week on a different forum made the comment that the L3 was good "if you liked listening to distortion". They had never touched the speaker--they just assumed his comments were 100% accurate. That is the problem. 



> but posts of these sort tend to come off as diyma bashing without ANY contrary data to back it up


Absolutely not bashing DIYMA. I have never used their products and I don't comment on products I have not personally used (unless I give a disclaimer first).



> just cuase you say you like it, is no more valuable than dang sayin he likes it


I agree 100%



> but numbers dont lie IMO


I agree, but I can get you any numbers you want to see. I'm not saying he did that, but it does happen. 



> and you really think the legatias are that good?? man what else have you used?? id be curious to know that?


They are that good. I have the competition results to back it up. You want the list of speakers I have used in the 16 years I have been doing this or just the last year? I tested out 6 different midbass drivers just last week. I have built 10+ kickpanel enclosures this year alone to test drivers. I tested several midrange drivers before settling on the L3. 

I'll add this also--when I joined Team Hybrids, I told Scott that I would never lie about his product. I would not lie about anything in my vehicle. It isn't worth that to me. Is the L3 the best speaker ever? Absolutely not. Is it good? Yes. I did pay full retail for the L3. It was not given to me and I didn't get a single dollar discount off of it. So this isn't some team thing.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> Look at the responses to this thread.
> 
> You are right---there is no way of measuring what I heard. I admitted that in the first post. I just know what I personally heard. That is all I ever comment on. What I have PERSONAL experience with.


But what use is providing that information if not to conclude something about the speaker? Based on the way you performed the test, the differences you perceived cannot necessarily be attributed to any effects that the speaker may or may not have exhibited.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> Bingo. That is what I was saying. Unfortunately several people take the reviews as the gospel and start spreading items all over the internet. Someone last week on a different forum made the comment that the L3 was good "if you liked listening to distortion". They had never touched the speaker--they just assumed his comments were 100% accurate. That is the problem.


Then I think it's pretty clear that your beef is with idiots who can't comprehend what they read, and not npdang. There are always going to be lemmings out there. You can't blame npdang for it.

Also, no you can't get "any numbers you want to see." If you perform the test exactly as npdang did it, you will get the same result (within a margin of error). That's what reproducibility is all about.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> But what use is providing that information if not to conclude something about the speaker? Based on the way you performed the test, the differences you perceived cannot necessarily be attributed to any effects that the speaker may or may not have exhibited.


Do you mean by "that information" that there was a change? 

If so, I provided that because it was based off of two completely different people's opinons. 

Prior to the L3 if you would have asked me if break in matters--I would have said hell no. I rolled my eyes when I read people post about that. It flat out happened with the L3 though. I can't document it (other than my scores did go up from the first show to the second with the same judge--but could be a result of several items). 

That is one issue where I just know what I heard. I wish I could substantiate it, but I can't. I fully admit that.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2006)

Has anyone else noticed how much better their hard drive on their computer works once "broken in"? I mean, I know that the measured RPM, seek time, etc. doesn't change appreciably, but I can just tell that once the mechanically rotating drive "loosens up" or "breaks in", it just works "better".
I don't care why, it just does.
Just another reason not to trust "measurements". Unless of course they can be used selectively to support one's argument. Only then are they worth something.

cheers

AJ

The 3rd and 4th to last paragraphs from someone who would know very little if anything about loudspeakers http://www.soundstagelive.com/factorytours/psbnrc/


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> Then I think it's pretty clear that your beef is with idiots who can't comprehend what they read, and not npdang. There are always going to be lemmings out there. You can't blame npdang for it.


I agree. I do wish more people would beat down those "lemmings" when they see them post on other forums rather than just x2'ing them.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

AJinFLA said:


> Has anyone else noticed how much better their hard drive on their computer works once "broken in"? I mean, I know that the measured RPM, seek time, etc. doesn't change appreciably, but I can just tell that once the mechanically rotating drive "loosens up" or "breaks in", it just works "better".
> I don't care why, it just does.
> Just another reason not to trust "measurements". Unless of course they can be used selectively to support one's argument. Only then are they worth something.
> 
> ...


Congratulations on finding google. Maybe next time walk out into the sunshine and try things for yourself. It is amazing the difference between experience and reading that "interwebnet thing". Read what I said above about my thoughts on break in.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> Do you mean by "that information" that there was a change?
> 
> If so, I provided that because it was based off of two completely different people's opinons.


Lots of people (certainly more than two) believe that silver wire sounds better than copper. Does the fact that multiple people have reached that conclusion mean that it's valid?



> Prior to the L3 if you would have asked me if break in matters--I would have said hell no. I rolled my eyes when I read people post about that. It flat out happened with the L3 though. I can't document it (other than my scores did go up from the first show to the second with the same judge--but could be a result of several items).
> 
> That is one issue where I just know what I heard. I wish I could substantiate it, but I can't. I fully admit that.


In that case, I hope you can understand why people won't reach the same conclusion you have. Gotta perform the right tests to arrive at the answers to questions.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

And to that I say again:

"
I just don't see a conflict of interest here... these measurements are easily repeatable by anyone! What would I have to gain by distorting measurements that anyone can easily duplicate and verify for themself?

And how exactly do I sell more BG neo's or DIYMA subs from reviewing the Leg 3? Or praising the numerous Seas, Scan-Speak drivers, Peerless, TC, etc. drivers out there?"

I just don't see the appearance of impropriety. As well as all subjective comments are given with the expectation that it's clearly subjective and take it with a grain of salt


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

npdang said:


> And how exactly do I sell more BG neo's or DIYMA subs from reviewing the Leg 3? Or praising the numerous Seas, Scan-Speak drivers, Peerless, TC, etc. drivers out there?"


You don't think your upcoming DIYMA 2" is in the same "arena" for buyers of a small midrange as the L3? You don't think that a negative review on the L3 followed up by (in a different section of the forum) of "hey I'm releasing a 2" midrange soon and it sounds incredible" effects your sales? Come on.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> I'll add this also--when I joined Team Hybrids


now why do you feel that your "honor" and "honesty" and "integrity" is any more or less than your affiliations would dicate??

so you really think that npdang is any less honorable to do test and offer a "honest" opinion is any less than your team hybrid based opinion??

and when did hard science become subjective? or questionable?? but Scott himself DID NOT claim the findings were incorrect, just felt they were not audible

I frequent his forum,and talk audio UK, where he posts, if he felt they were so wrong WHY NOT POST TEST DATA on some other forum or one of the other sites I mentioned IT


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## JoeHemi57 (Mar 28, 2006)

Andy Jones said:


> You don't think your upcoming DIYMA 2" is in the same "arena" for buyers of a small midrange as the L3? You don't think that a negative review on the L3 followed up by (in a different section of the forum) of "hey I'm releasing a 2" midrange soon and it sounds incredible" effects your sales? Come on.


Its definitely not in the same price range


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

JoeHemi57 said:


> Its definitely not in the same price range


PWNT!


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> You don't think your upcoming DIYMA 2" is in the same "arena" for buyers of a small midrange as the L3? You don't think that a negative review on the L3 followed up by (in a different section of the forum) of "hey I'm releasing a 2" midrange soon and it sounds incredible" effects your sales? Come on.


 Not at all. 2 completely different drivers that sound completely different, with different applications and budgets.

I think it would be more appropriate for me to give the RS52 a negative review, which is almost a close cousin at a far cheaper price than the Leg3.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

newtitan said:


> now why do you feel that your "honor" and "honesty" and "integrity" is any more or less than your affiliations would dicate??


Because I don't make a dime from being on Team Hybrids. Nothing in my truck was free. My financial situation is in no way changed by Team Hybrids. He did give me 15 minutes of tuning time this weekend and a shirt he had left over from his shirt sales last year. It isn't a nice enough shirt for me to lie for though  



> so you really think that npdang is any less honorable to do test and offer a "honest" opinion is any less than your team hybrid based opinion??


Did say he was. It was the appearance. 



> and when did hard science become subjective? or questionable?? but Scott himself DID NOT claim the findings were incorrect, just felt they were not audible


Everything is questionable. I would hate to meet someone so simple that they would take anything at its face value. You are right Scott didn't claim the findings were incorrect. He wasn't going to face the onslaught that I have taken here. That really didn't work well for Mover did it? 



> I frequent his forum,and talk audio UK, where he posts, if he felt they were so wrong WHY NOT POST TEST DATA on some other forum or one of the other sites I mentioned IT


Question for him--sorry I can't answer that. 

Again, I'm not saying the testing is wrong. I find the ad weird. I know what the testing said should be there is not audible--which in my opinion makes the testing pretty useless as to this speaker and makes me raise an eyebrow as to all other tests.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

JoeHemi57 said:


> Its definitely not in the same price range



I agree, and that appears to be more imporant on this site than how a speaker actually performs. I believe the words "for the money" were originated on this forum.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

npdang said:


> Not at all. 2 completely different drivers that sound completely different, with different applications and budgets.
> 
> I think it would be more appropriate for me to give the RS52 a negative review, which is almost a close cousin at a far cheaper price than the Leg3.



So you don't think anyone who is looking for a small midrange driver is going to look at your 2" and the L3. You see them as being in two different segments of the speaker world? You are not that naive.


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## JoeHemi57 (Mar 28, 2006)

Andy Jones said:


> I agree, and that appears to be more imporant on this site than how a speaker actually performs. I believe the words "for the money" were originated on this forum.


"for the money" = value
i'm sure the legatias are very capable but value is a key factor in every purchase.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

dual700 said:


> I heard the Legatia and I think it's nothing special.
> It's in Scott's world finals car.
> Does it need to be broken in some more?


Aren't you the same guy who came in dead last at finals?


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

JoeHemi57 said:


> "for the money" = value
> i'm sure the legatias are very capable but value is a key factor in every purchase.


For the money=I'm willing to put up with deficiencies just so I can save some money.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> So you don't think anyone who is looking for a small midrange driver is going to look at your 2" and the L3. You see them as being in two different segments of the speaker world? You are not that naive.


dude not bashing on you but read. legatia msrp is $250 and diyma is about $65 for a pair. legatia cone midrange, probably can be crossed lower. diyma, dome midrange and probably has better off axis response and also is self enclosed so an enclosure if not necessary.

as npdang said if he really wanted to hype up his diyma 2", he would have given the dayton rs52 a bad review which is the same kind of midrange (dome) and same price range.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

alphakenny1 said:


> dude not bashing on you but read. legatia msrp is $250 and diyma is about $65 for a pair. legatia cone midrange, probably can be crossed lower. diyma, dome midrange and probably has better off axis response and also is self enclosed so an enclosure if not necessary.
> 
> as npdang said if he really wanted to hype up his diyma 2", he would have given the dayton rs52 a bad review which is the same kind of midrange (dome) and same price range.


Not bashing on you, but get some experience. When I made the move from horns to "convential drivers" I tested midranges all over the map. From DLS Ir 3's, the cheap Audax 3's, Scan 5 1/4's to the Legatia 3. When you are looking for a driver to play a range--most people look at everything that could remotely work. Not just the drivers that perfectly fit in the square hole.

There is no reason to bash the Dayton if the DIYMA will be cheaper. He can just use the "for the money" statement that is so popular.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

That's true, value is very important to most people here. However, you're mistaken if you think that people here aren't also performance minded.... there's alot of expensive setups using Scan-Speak, Seas Excel, ATC, etc.

Why would anyone consider the diyma 2" and the legatia? 5 mins of searching would reveal they are completely different sounding drivers. I also notice that the Leg fans tend to be "we don't care about the measurements crowd", so I can't see how less than favorable measurements would effect their buying decision. Even here at DIYMA I think measurements are just a sidebar for most people.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

Andy Jones said:


> For the money=I'm willing to put up with deficiencies just so I can save some money.


Why all the name calling and condescending remarks just because someone suggests there might be a fully capable driver that is priced less than the Leg3?

Example:

http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=021883

DBs initial comment was regarding a potential loss of sales. Frankly, I would be less inclined to purchase a product if someone who was affiliated with that manufacturer represented themselves in an unprofessional manner as opposed to the results of some testing that was conducted. I can make my own decisions regarding the test results and how they might apply to my particular situation.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

My comments center around anyone makes negative comments about any product they have not personally used. Do you not understand the time, money, blood, sweat, and tears that goes into launching a new company? Then to have someone who has never used the product bash it---that is just pathetic. That is what my comments were on the SD page. That guy (even if it was you) is a complete moron. He is the drone that was mentioned above. Read a test, repeat it as fact. No personal experience at all--just sat behind a computer and became an expert.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

FWIW, the price of the Diyma2 has been stated to be pretty much the same as the rs52.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

npdang said:


> That's true, value is very important to most people here. However, you're mistaken if you think that people here aren't also performance minded.... there's alot of expensive setups using Scan-Speak, Seas Excel, ATC, etc.


No doubt, and those comments were not aimed at anyone in particular. Just the people who try to justify an inferior speaker because it costs less. Cost should not come into play when evaluating a speaker. The cost has nothing to do with it. The phrase "it is good for the money" is a joke. It is either good or it is not. "the money" part should be irrelevant and never be in a review.


[Quote[Why would anyone consider the diyma 2" and the legatia? 5 mins of searching would reveal they are completely different sounding drivers. [/Quote]

That is the rub. If you would have said 5 minutes of listening--I may have agreed with you. But 5 minutes of reading tells you very little about a speaker. You just basically wrote that the test should be relied on--even though above you said they are a side bar. Do you see the problem now?




> I also notice that the Leg fans tend to be "we don't care about the measurements crowd", so I can't see how less than favorable measurements would effect their buying decision.


I don't represent the "leg fans". I'm stating my opinion here. I don't hide behind a screen name, I don't hide at shows. I am stating my opinion and my opinion only.




> Even here at DIYMA I think measurements are just a sidebar for most people.


Then why did you make the comment above that 5 minutes of reading would separate the speakers?


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> Not bashing on you, but get some experience. When I made the move from horns to "convential drivers" I tested midranges all over the map. From DLS Ir 3's, the cheap Audax 3's, Scan 5 1/4's to the Legatia 3. When you are looking for a driver to play a range--most people look at everything that could remotely work. Not just the drivers that perfectly fit in the square hole.
> 
> There is no reason to bash the Dayton if the DIYMA will be cheaper. He can just use the "for the money" statement that is so popular.


yea sorry but most of us here don't have the pockets to go out and spend money on different drivers. most of us here are also very budget minded thats why we are in diy, to put together a $200 front stage that can sound awesome. you must be damn ignorant not to consider the price issues here. obviously to you, money is no object but to some us it something to consider. 

something also to consider. when npdang did that legatia review the diyma 2" was nowhere in site. he didn't even mention the midrange to the general public until last month. when he did the review his thoughts weren't even on the diyma 2".


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> My comments center around anyone makes negative comments about any product they have not personally used. Do you not understand the time, money, blood, sweat, and tears that goes into launching a new company? Then to have someone who has never used the product bash it---that is just pathetic. That is what my comments were on the SD page. That guy (even if it was you) is a complete moron. He is the drone that was mentioned above. Read a test, repeat it as fact. No personal experience at all--just sat behind a computer and became an expert.


Then where's the dispute? I don't see anyone in this thread disagreeing with what you say above. But I think you're off the mark to assign ulterior motives to npdang and his testing methodology.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

npdang said:


> FWIW, the price of the Diyma2 has been stated to be pretty much the same as the rs52.


So you are just rebadging a speaker and reselling it? What is the point in that?  (that is not an attack--that is an honest confusing action to me)


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

OT - but in the SD thread the TG9 (Trius) was quickly dismissed as a viable option because it hasn't been used in comps? Well ... if comps is what matters, the TG9 (Trius) has been used in Euro comps quite effectively.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

Andy Jones said:


> My comments center around anyone makes negative comments about any product they have not personally used. Do you not understand the time, money, blood, sweat, and tears that goes into launching a new company? Then to have someone who has never used the product bash it---that is just pathetic. That is what my comments were on the SD page. That guy (even if it was you) is a complete moron. He is the drone that was mentioned above. Read a test, repeat it as fact. No personal experience at all--just sat behind a computer and became an expert.


No it was not me. 

I do understand what goes into launching a new company, all too well.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> No doubt, and those comments were not aimed at anyone in particular. Just the people who try to justify an inferior speaker because it costs less. Cost should not come into play when evaluating a speaker. The cost has nothing to do with it. The phrase "it is good for the money" is a joke. It is either good or it is not. "the money" part should be irrelevant and never be in a review.


That's ridiculous. Those sorts of interpretations can often be valuable, especially when there are a lot of drivers tested. I think zaphaudio does it best by flat out stating which drivers tested the best and which ones were the greatest "value". In those cases, both pieces of information are offered. Like it or not, bang for the buck is of primary concern to many folks.


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> So you are just rebadging a speaker and reselling it? What is the point in that?  (that is not an attack--that is an honest confusing action to me)


I won't try to speak for npdang, but both products admittedly come from Peerless India, and the DIYMA 2 is more optimized for BL linearity.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

alphakenny1 said:


> yea sorry but most of us here don't have the pockets to go out and spend money on different drivers. most of us here are also very budget minded thats why we are in diy, to put together a $200 front stage that can sound awesome. you must be damn ignorant not to consider the price issues here. obviously to you, money is no object but to some us it something to consider.


That is fine, but then don't comment on more expensive speakers. Don't pretend that the speaker is better than other speakers just because it is cheaper



> something also to consider. when npdang did that legatia review the diyma 2" was nowhere in site. he didn't even mention the midrange to the general public until last month. when he did the review his thoughts weren't even on the diyma 2".


You don't think he knew about it?


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

PlanetGranite said:


> OT - but in the SD thread the TG9 (Trius) was quickly dismissed as a viable option because it hasn't been used in comps? Well ... if comps is what matters, the TG9 (Trius) has been used in Euro comps quite effectively.


It was dismissed by me mainly because I had no experience with it.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> So you are just rebadging a speaker and reselling it? What is the point in that?  (that is not an attack--that is an honest confusing action to me)


 No offense taken at all. There are some subtle differences in build and performance, as well as support. At the time I also had no idea the rs52 even existed. You have to remember it takes quite a while to bring a product to market and the rs52's were just released.

I'm just wondering why though, as soon as a question is answered, you switch topics and find a new bone to chew


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> No doubt, and those comments were not aimed at anyone in particular. Just the people who try to justify an inferior speaker because it costs less. Cost should not come into play when evaluating a speaker. The cost has nothing to do with it. The phrase "it is good for the money" is a joke. It is either good or it is not. "the money" part should be irrelevant and never be in a review.


i disagree here. price is a way (sadly) to measure products not only in car audio but in general. so let's say for the ultimate speaker plays perfect (speaker A) and is measured at 100% in performance at $1000. so if a reviewer reviews another speaker (speaker b) that cost $100 and says that it performs at 75%. then "for the money" you can get a speaker that cost 10 times as less and still achieve 3/4 of the performance of the perfect speaker. So "for the money" speaker B would be a good buy. so to me, price is an huge factor in a review.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> . But I think you're off the mark to assign ulterior motives to npdang and his testing methodology.


AGAIN, not saying he did anything wrong. It is the appearance. That is the entire issue. To pretend the DIYMA 2" and the L3 are not in the same market is just naive. 

If I were starting again today looking for a small midrange (and the DIYMA 2" were out)--I would buy both. I'm sure others would also.


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## Tirefryr (May 15, 2005)

IMO, this thread is ridiculous. 

Andy Jones, you stated that after 20 hours of break-in time, you noticed a distinguishable difference in sound. That is your opinion. Nobody can tell you it is wrong. That's what you heard.

NP did the tests and posted his opinions. Nobody can tell him they are wrong. 

An opinion is just that and if someone is TRULY interested in the Legatia, they are going to do a hell of a lot more research than just reading this site. Simply by knowing about the driver we can determine they are more of an enthusiast than a normal consumer, and with that, the enthusiast will not place much emphasis on one lone review.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> AGAIN, not saying he did anything wrong. It is the appearance. That is the entire issue. To pretend the DIYMA 2" and the L3 are not in the same market is just naive.


So then what do you suggest he do? Refrain from giving his subjective opinion in his posts? He offered to do that already, and lots of people asked him to reconsider. And does this apply to all speaker advice? When someone asks whether they'd be better off buying, for example, the Seas L18 or CA18, should he refuse to answer?

Just what is your complaint and how do you want to see it rectified?


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Tirefryr said:


> IMO, this thread is ridiculous.
> 
> Andy Jones, you stated that after 20 hours of break-in time, you noticed a distinguishable difference in sound. That is your opinion. Nobody can tell you it is wrong. That's what you heard.
> 
> ...


Well put. I hope people do follow through with the last paragraph.

I'm out fellas. It has been fun. We can continue later on a different bat channel at a different bat time.

I want to say this again--I have no ill feelings towards NPDang, towards DIYMA, or to anyone looking to save money. I just really think that people should only comment on what they have personally used--not what they have read about. I also don't think that one manufacturer should ever test another manufacturer's products. It just isn't appropriate in my eyes. That is just my opinion though.


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## chadillac3 (Feb 3, 2006)

Andy Jones said:


> AGAIN, not saying he did anything wrong. It is the appearance. That is the entire issue. To pretend the DIYMA 2" and the L3 are not in the same market is just naive.
> 
> If I were starting again today looking for a small midrange (and the DIYMA 2" were out)--I would buy both. I'm sure others would also.


And just as naive to pretend you're saying he did nothing wrong. For anyone with half a brain, this is an obvious attack on npdang.

End of story.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Tirefryr said:


> IMO, this thread is ridiculous.
> 
> Andy Jones, you stated that after 20 hours of break-in time, you noticed a distinguishable difference in sound. That is your opinion. Nobody can tell you it is wrong. That's what you heard.
> 
> ...


Well put. I hope people do follow through with the last paragraph.

I'm out fellas. It has been fun. We can continue later on a different bat channel at a different bat time.

I want to say this again--I have no ill feelings towards NPDang, towards DIYMA, to anyone looking to save money, nor do I think the Legatia is the best speaker to ever grace the Earth. I just really think that people should only comment on what they have personally used--not what they have read about. I also don't think that one manufacturer should ever test another manufacturer's products. It just isn't appropriate in my eyes. That is just my opinion though.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

chadillac3 said:


> And just as naive to pretend you're saying he did nothing wrong. For anyone with half a brain, this is an obvious attack on npdang.
> 
> End of story.


Someone with a full brain would see it is not.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I disagree. 5 mins of reading and searching is enough to determine that these 2 drivers don't fit the same application, nor do they sound anything alike.

Also, you don't have to be monetarily involved to be considered biased. It's obvious you're strongly motivated by something, even if it is just love of the product and Scott B. 

I've let all the glowing, positive reviews of the leg3 stand. I haven't deleted anything, made disparaging comments, or locked the thread even though many of these reviews came from 1 post members who never came back. Wouldn't it would be nice if the same respect could be shown to people who don't like the driver?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> Well put. I hope people do follow through with the last paragraph.
> 
> I'm out fellas. It has been fun. We can continue later on a different bat channel at a different bat time.
> 
> I want to say this again--I have no ill feelings towards NPDang, towards DIYMA, to anyone looking to save money, nor do I think the Legatia is the best speaker to ever grace the Earth. I just really think that people should only comment on what they have personally used--not what they have read about. I also don't think that one manufacturer should ever test another manufacturer's products. It just isn't appropriate in my eyes. That is just my opinion though.


 Great post. I'll leave it at that as well


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> I also don't think that one manufacturer should ever test another manufacturer's products. It just isn't appropriate in my eyes. That is just my opinion though.


I don't think there's anything wrong with it, as long as they fully reveal their testing methodology and don't engage in tests that could artificially prop up their own drivers at the expense of others. In that sense, I agree. But I think npdang has outlined his methodology rather well, including being very clear about its shortcomings. I just don't see how he could have gone about things any better than he has. 

And I also believe his measurements provide a valuable service to many folks -- at least those who understand what they're reading. Personally, I don't put a whole lot of stock in most of them, as I don't believe the sorts of tests he performs are central to what makes a good performing speaker. But I'm also not going to pretend that there's something magical and mysterious underlying speaker performance that we can never capture with measurements.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

I didn't realize I was opening up such a can of worms.  My concern was that 1) the Legatia's were tested with no break in (regardless of whether or not break-in periods are valid) when the mfg. specifically recommended one and users in the field have discerned an audiable difference,when the tester stated that they were indeed broken in for 20 hours, or 2) the seller was misrepresenting the actual use of the Legatias, and if so was it intentional or an oversight. As a potential buyer I see a difference between new-in-the-box played for 10 min or broken in for 20 hrs and subjected to a series of tests. It was brought to my attention that these were the speakers npdang tested so I wanted him to shed some insight into the matter. 

That being said, I am in no way wanting to imply that the test results weren't valid or that the tester was biased in any manner. We all know that how a component performs in a controlled environment and charted electronically doesn't always translate into how it performs in it's actual use. When I am trying to decide what components I would like to purchase I will look at test results but in the end my decisions are based more upon what I hear with my own ears. I also tend to put more value in the opinion of those who have had a large measure of success in competition and a reputation for building world championship calibur installs than I would someone who had the equipment and ability to run a large number of tests but when it came to winning in competition couldn't even crack the top 5.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> I didn't realize I was opening up such a can of worms.  My concern was that 1) the Legatia's were tested with no break in (regardless of whether or not break-in periods are valid) when the mfg. specifically recommended one and users in the field have discerned an audiable difference,when the tester stated that they were indeed broken in for 20 hours, or 2) the seller was misrepresenting the actual use of the Legatias, and if so was it intentional or an oversight. As a potential buyer I see a difference between new-in-the-box played for 10 min or broken in for 20 hrs and subjected to a series of tests. It was brought to my attention that these were the speakers npdang tested so I wanted him to shed some insight into the matter.


A very fair question. It's unfortunate that you never really got an answer from the seller, but that's the nature of the internet -- conversations get sidetracked!



> That being said, I am in no way wanting to imply that the test results weren't valid or that the tester was biased in any manner. We all know that how a component performs in a controlled environment and charted electronically doesn't always translate into how it performs in it's actual use. When I am trying to decide what components I would like to purchase I will look at test results but in the end my decisions are based more upon what I hear with my own ears. I also tend to put more value in the opinion of those who have had a large measure of success in competition and a reputation for building world championship calibur installs than I would someone who had the equipment and ability to run a large number of tests but when it came to winning in competition couldn't even crack the top 5.


As I'm sure you know, there's a lot more to "competitions" than actual sonic performance.


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## JoeHemi57 (Mar 28, 2006)

If you want to leave price out of comparison i've read(never heard) the Focal 3" mid is miles ahead of the legatia and thats coming from hebrew hammer who has heard both of them and about every other high end speaker known to man.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> A very fair question. It's unfortunate that you never really got an answer from the seller, but that's the nature of the internet -- conversations get sidetracked!
> 
> 
> 
> As I'm sure you know, there's a lot more to "competitions" than actual sonic performance.


I think I need to mention here that my last comment was NOT directed toward npdang. I personally have no knowledge of his ability at building championship calibur installs, or any installs for that matter. It was a general comment directed at those who hide behind an array of equipment and technical data but when it comes to actual implementation in the field don't really know their butt from a hole in the ground. You've heard the expression "those who can..do, those who can't....teach!"


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> I think I need to mention here that my last comment was NOT directed toward npdang. I personally have no knowledge of his ability at building championship calibur installs, or any installs for that matter. It was a general comment directed at those who hide behind an array of equipment and technical data but when it comes to actual implementation in the field don't really know their butt from a whole in the ground. You've heard the expression "those who can..do, those who can't....teach!"


And my comment to that was based on the fact that those who don't participate in competitions are not doing so because they're bad installers. Some people, like myself, find competitions to be just plain retarded. Pardon my bluntness.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

JoeHemi57 said:


> If you want to leave price out of comparison i've read(never heard) the Focal 3" mid is miles ahead of the legatia and thats coming from hebrew hammer who has heard both of them and about every other high end speaker known to man.


I have a set of Focal Polyk2's and Utopia Audioms in my install cabinet right now with warped cones and Focal won't do a thing about them. That being said...they did sound awesome....while they worked. I seriously doubt the Focal 3" mid can handle the wide frequency spectrum the Legatia is capable of handling. I'm not doubting the hebrew hammer, it's just that people have different tastes in speakers. My experience with Focal is that they are bright and accurate while the Legatias are more laid back. If you want bright then the Legatia would probably be a speaker you should pass on.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> And my comment to that was based on the fact that those who don't participate in competitions are not doing so because they're bad installers. Some people, like myself, find competitions to be just plain retarded. Pardon my bluntness.


No reason to apologize! There is a difference is building a system that scores great vs a system that sounds great. Some of my better sounding installs didn't always score that well. I do have to admit that I can't recall a world championship install that didn't sound great!


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> I have a set of Focal Polyk2's and Utopia Audioms in my install cabinet right now with warped cones and Focal won't do a thing about them. That being said...they did sound awesome....while they worked. I seriously doubt the Focal 3" mid can handle the wide frequency spectrum the Legatia is capable of handling. I'm not doubting the hebrew hammer, it's just that people have different tastes in speakers. My experience with Focal is that they are bright and accurate while the Legatias are more laid back. If you want bright then the Legatia would probably be a speaker you should pass on.


so wait you have USED the legatias already??

and what happened to the other 8 pages of the thread??? weird they got deleted or is my browser just tripping? (WEIRD its just in firefox?? in IE its fine al 8 pages are showing)


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

newtitan said:


> so wait you have USED the legatias already??
> 
> and what happened to the other 8 pages of the thread??? weird they got deleted or is my browser just tripping? (WEIRD its just in firefox?? in IE its fine al 8 pages are showing)


I am in the process switching over to the Legatias after hearing a number of vehicles running them (Andy's included). I even had some previous correspondence with npdang about what my intentions were and he said nothing to discourage me from purchasing them. I like the idea of a dedicated mid-range that can cover the entire vocal frequency spectrum. Hearing them on a soundboard is nothing compared to hearing them in a properly built and tuned vehicle. I like a warm and laid back sound and the L3's do not disappoint in that area.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Hey guys:

Late to this thread...sorry. 

I am humbled by how passonate everyone was on this thread. But it makes me wonder if there's more going on then just a debate between adults about a speaker...seems deeper than that.

My ONLY request is that those with an opinion LISTEN to the Legatia in a properly-installed and set-up system before spewing internet gospel. Quite a few DIY forum subscriber's minds were changed this past weekend because they HEARD the speakers in action. To say every member of the DIY forum I have met thus far is skeptical about the speaker's performance is an understatement. Most are blatantly biased by the time they reach one of the Team Hybrids cars. Fortunately, it usually doesn't take much to change their minds. It just sucks having to do it one member at a time.

Scott


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

Hopefully those members will come forward and add their listening impressions to the numerous impressions given at this forum already.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Could you link the "numerous impressions" for me please? I only see one or two from folks that listened to a prototype driver at last year's Finals. I don't see any credible subjective analyses (listening evaluations IN a car, properly set-up) here except for the one positive one from BigTube, the home audiophile that posted once, and then split. Help!

Scott


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

I think in that same thread (Legatia vs Trius) after BigTubes impressions, Newtitan and Finleyville offered their brief impressions (and then Dual of course) and I believe Thor has a posting about them somewhere.

All I can think of off the top of my head. Not a lot, but more impressions than most forums.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Yes, you're right. I do recall reading the New Titan and Finleyville posts in the original thread, as well as a follow-up by Thor. Thanks!!! All honest opinions and all in a car! Super!

Scott


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> I like a warm and laid back sound and the L3's do not disappoint in that area.


as I said before then the legatias are PERFECT for this style of listening pleasure. I dont think that those that prefer the more detailed drivers will use them (please note doesnt mean they wont LIKE them--just prefer something else)

I for one liked the speakers (but im a speaker whore who like to TRY everything and cant afford to KEEP everything), and think they are REALLY built well, but I also like the peerless Vline (trius) also. I do hope folks take the time to A/B them as it really is a revealing comparison

and as as further opinion, I wish the legatia had a tad more output in the stated band of 150 to 8K, but its already asking a bunch for ANY speaker to play that many octaves

I for one think hybrid tech is VERY smart for filling that need in car audio, as I for one prefer the music up high,and I cant use kicks as my feet are too big lol, and for the "diameter" in its price range there really isnt any other driver out there having a mid in the pillars, or dash is VERY nice to me

although if you can deal with the low spl the aura ns3 is an AWESOME driver IMO but you almost need two of them per side as they are less sensitive than even the L3's

if you go up to a 4" or 4.5" then yeah there are other "better" options

and I think thoraudio liked them too, so of those that have used them or heard them most find them favorable I think. its not like anyone said there were a$$ or anything (except hebrew hammer lol--), but the distortion graphs dont lie IMO

I for one will try the 8's when they come out, and I have a set of L1 tweeters that I need to try out sitting in my stereo room


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Thanks NewTitan for your constructive input to this thread! I can't wait to hear what you think about the L1's!

Scott


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Oh, and by the way, I have the first prototype of a 4" Legatia here for testing (the Legatia L4). These should be out by Christmas, if not quite a bit sooner, so there will be even more Legatia options for a dedicated midrange! ;-)

Scott


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> Aren't you the same guy who came in dead last at finals?


Yes I was after that seat "incident"
Why does it matter? Why is my placement in Iasca has anything to do with all this?
I was in his car with fellow Iasca World Champ and we got out.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2006)

Hi Scott,

If measurements aren't everything when it comes to transducer (sound) design, could you tell me what is? If your drivers (which measures quite modestly, not even considering the cost) sound is somehow "better" than just the measurements suggest, how was it designed? 
When you were sent the first prototypes, were they based on you specific (measurable) design parameters? Or did you just ask the build house to send you some drivers that had a specific sound and leave it up to them to cook something up?
If the prototypes did not meet your "sound" expectations, what do you tell the build house to change? The "sound", or measurable parameters?
I'm not trying to figure out why a driver would "sound better" than its measurements suggest. I'm trying to figure out the design process, the methodology of how such a driver can be created. Without measurements? By ear measurement?
If so, how does the build house adjust the sound to your needs? By changing what?

slightly confused,

AJ


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

I'll add one more item. If anyone wants to listen to my L3's the below is my competition schedule. Bring as many CD's as you want. I'll show you how to work the system and leave you with it.

Auburn this Sunday (MECA)
Altanta Sept. 2 (IASCA)
Altanta IASCA Finals (Sept 15-16)
Boaz, AL (MECA) OCt 1
Crossville, TN (MECA) Oct 7
Louisville, KY (MECA) October 14-15 (if they have room and I get in)
Lebanon, TN (MECA) October 29th
Shepardsville KY (MECA Finals) November 11-12.

Only time you can't listen is when I'm being judged. Other than that it is wide open. I'll even turn off everything other than the 3's. Or any combination of speakers you want. 

The only one in doubt of the above shows is the Crossville show. I have to get a kitchen pass to hit that one since it isn't a "big" show.


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

Damn, that's a busy schedule! If you don't mind me asking, what improvements have you noticed from being able to cover the entire vocal range (and major harmonics) with one driver? Have those improvements been reflected in your scores?


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2006)

Shill, you're back. If you're ever in florida I'd give it a listen. See how marvelous a $250 3" paper cone driver with modest measurements sounds. And how smart one has to be to buy some.

cheers,

AJ


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

dual700 said:


> Yes I was after that seat "incident"
> Why does it matter? Why is my placement in Iasca has anything to do with all this?
> I was in his car with fellow Iasca World Champ and we got out.


It only matters to the extent that there have been a number of former world champions and highly regarded professionals in the industry who sat in that same car and were extremely impressed by the quality sound coming out of those L3's that you didn't like. I just wanted to remind those viewing this topic that when they here comments such as the one you made they need to consider the source.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> It only matters to the extent that there have been a number of former world champions and highly regarded professionals in the industry who sat in that same car and were extremely impressed by the quality sound coming out of those L3's that you didn't like. I just wanted to remind those viewing this topic that when they here comments such as the one you made they need to consider the source.


I'd also like to remind everyone to read npdang's signature line, as it's no less appropriate in this thread than in any other.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

ClinesSelect said:


> Why all the name calling and condescending remarks just because someone suggests there might be a fully capable driver that is priced less than the Leg3?
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...


SD isn't working for me right now but I assume that the link is the one that I posted in. I'll be the first to admit that I've never heard the L3 or Trius. With that being said not everyone has the means to buy and test every speaker ever made. That is where I find this site useful it has not only subjective data but also measurement data which can't be disputed as easily. So when I'm looking at 2 different drivers that I may be interested in I am able to compare measurement data and if one measures better and the subjective opinions seem to back that up it's useful in making a selection. If anyone in the area (Ventura County) has the L3 or Trius in their car I would be more that happy to make the drive to hear the drivers for myself and if my comments were unfounded then I will be the first to admit it.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2006)

> It only matters to the extent that there have been a number of former world champions and highly regarded professionals


World champions at what? Highly regarded by whom?

cheers,

AJ


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Oh my lord what have I gotten myself into? I'm now the owner of some of the most contorversial midrange drivers on the planet!!!  I'd post my opinions on them once they are in, but I'm such a noob with virgin ears that it wouldn't be accurate anyway. I'm just a dude who enjoys the hobbly and likes to try good stuff out. At my level of experience, the only excuse I'd have if they sounded "bad" would be user error.

FWIW, I really value NP's reviews....but I DONT buy equipment soley based on them...that is kind of foolish IMO.

I was on the Hybird Audio website today looking at the owner's manual for the Legatia 3's. I've never seen an owner's manual like that....ever! Scott and his team did a fantastic job putting that together. So if you don't use the product as your *supposed* to, what results can you really expect?? Just my $.02.

Carry on....


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## JoeHemi57 (Mar 28, 2006)

the owners manual is VERY detailed. some good info in there regardless of driver choice.


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> It only matters to the extent that there have been a number of former world champions and highly regarded professionals in the industry who sat in that same car and were extremely impressed by the quality sound coming out of those L3's that you didn't like. I just wanted to remind those viewing this topic that when they here comments such as the one you made they need to consider the source.


So I have to be a world champion and highly regarded professional for my opinion to be heard?
I bet you, I put npdang's car at iasca and he will place far behind mine, no offense.  
I take npdang's opinion over your highly regarded world champions anyday of the week. But hey, that's just my opinion, a dead last guy at world finals.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Betcha Richard Small's car would do pretty poorly at the world finals too.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2006)

> Betcha Richard Small's car would do pretty poorly at the world finals too.


Dr. Small's an engineer so he's quite deaf. Brain is too full of measurements and meaningless numbers. Its only "audiophiles" who can hear, remember?

cheers,

AJ


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Betcha Richard Small's car would do pretty poorly at the world finals too.


I am so gonna smoke his car it's not even funny


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

I think that the cottage industry of diy home speaker testers has some merit, but the results are often taken too far, as they are often vary from tester to tester. And often, mountains are made from mole hills... "I know that 6khz peak is 30 db down, but it's there!" 

The legatia's sounded fine in Andy's truck... I still prefered my WR125's.... but they are much larger too... 

<- has a little seat time here and there.


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## rbenz27 (Mar 9, 2006)

lol i just skimmed this thread. yeah, its ridiculous. its been months since the hybrid review and what not. this forum is not the end all and be all of speaker reviews. 

what's the original intent of the post anyway? to say that the speaker is the ****? yeah ok they are the bizzomb yo! wtf who gives a crap lol... i think its all wrap around intelligent words and phrases but that was the real intent of this whole discussion...

if you encountered people who bash your speaker without hearing em, f*ck em, they are freaking idiots.


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## |Tch0rT| (May 7, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> It only matters to the extent that there have been a number of former world champions and highly regarded professionals in the industry who sat in that same car and were extremely impressed by the quality sound coming out of those L3's that you didn't like. I just wanted to remind those viewing this topic that when they here comments such as the one you made they need to consider the source.





AJinFLA said:


> World champions at what? Highly regarded by whom?


I was trying to avoid replying to this thread as I have not heard the L3's but I do have something to add... In my recent experiance even World Champions can be as close-minded/stuck-in-their ways/biased as the people who rag on the L3 and haven't heard it yet. So IMO World Champions can be overrated. Competition isn't just focused on great SQ unfortunately.

Ryan


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## tdgesq (Apr 16, 2006)

First it's that the L3's were not broken in properly. Then it's that the reviewer is being dishonest or is otherwise utterly compromised. Then it's that nobody can say how good it sounds other than a world championship car audio judge. Some people value their car audio equipment so much that they are willing to sacrifice everything for it: common sense, integrity, self-respect, and honesty. What losers.


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## Wild Child (Feb 16, 2006)

I had about 10min. w/ the L1's & L3's in Andy's car in Spartanburg last Sun. They were easily the highlight of his system. One thing that impressed me about the driver was its abilty to play down to 140hz in a free air enclosure while reaching repectable levels. I feel like the detail portayed by the comp set was excellent, as good or better than my L18/27TBFCG set up, which is quite good. The seemed to have a pretty neutral sound, neither harsh nor warm. The channel seperation was top notch as well. This is the first 3" that I have really listened to, so take it for what it is.

Andy, intsead of spending all your time on here, you need to be cleaning up that midbass, and working on getting that sub to blend a little better.  But really, I very much enjoyed listening to your system, I can tell you spend a lot of time on it and thats its important to you. I hope to listen to it some more in Atlanta.

Scott you carry some very nice products and I'm sure you will do well, as long as you keep an eye on those tweeters  , and your Silvia is absolutly ridiculous, the best car at the show. I would very much like to listen to the Legatia 3-way in Atlanta if possible. 

Kenyata, let me know what u thought about the L3 vs the V-line.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2006)

> The channel seperation was top notch as well.


This is a desirable trait in a _loudspeaker_ evaluation?

cheers,

AJ


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Thank you for everyone's responses. Once again, it seems to have become a much more heated debate than what a speaker discussion between adults should warrant, leading me to believe there's more to the debate in question.

AJ, I see what you're tring to do here, and entrapment is not cool by me. Every last parameter of this, and every other Legatia driver was designed be me, and then I made materials science requirements, like the paper cone and inverted high-loss rubber surround, voice coil type and diameter, motor sturcture, and etc. Twenty five samples were then tested using MLSSA and LMS, baffled, in an anechoic chamber, with a microphone calibration proceedure before each sequence, to ensure accuracy and precision (look up these definitions if you're foggy about them). The drivers were then sent to me for testing *in a car*. This went on four four or five iterations until you see what we have here.

The L3's are currently at Becker UK for evaluation. Puggie, the resident expert on talkaudio.co.uk did some prelim. testing, and found distortion numbers to be upwards of 20 dB lower than tested on this forum, using his array of professonal testing gear at his laboratory. Here's the link where he discusses this: http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=159363

If numbers are so important to everyone, they will be posted on the www.buwaldahybrids.com/phpBB forum when I receive them from Becker. 

I still don't think the original question from the original poster was ever answered.

Scott


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

I really didn't mean for this topic to become a pep rally for the Legatia. I really wanted to know if the ones listed for sale were indeed the ones that npdang used in his test? If these are indeed the same drivers were they actually burned in for 20 hours like npdang stated and was the seller aware of this an chose not to disclose it or were they never actually broken in before they were tested? I don't think that question was ever answered.

I do think that this forum has a valuable place in the mobile audio industry. I haven't been a regular contributor here but have been a lurker for some time. Whenever a new driver makes it's way to the market place I check here to see if npdang has tested it and what his opinions are of it. I think he tries his best to be open and honest in his evaluations of the products he tests. I do however see Andy's point. It's hard to be completely unbiased when it comes to testing and promoting DIYMA products. Most of us have a tendency to root for the home team. For example... the distortion levels charted on the Legatias were see as a negative and the viewer was left with an impression that because of this it may not be that great of a product. In the "sticky" on the review of the DIYMA 2" dome there are significant levels of distortion present in the graphs but npdang states that that would not be significant for car use. 

Concerning the distortion measured on the Legatia vs Trius he states:

"It's very easy to see that the Trius has significantly lower non-linear distortion than the Legatia. Second and third order distortion were generally at least -15db lower, and fourth order and higher products much lower as well. Neither is suited IMHO to use below 800hz, without sacrificing a rather large amount of performance and clarity compared to a larger driver. Also remember the levels used here were a bare 90dbspl @1m. It gets much worse the louder you go."

Concerning the DIYMA 2" dome which exibited as much if not distortion..especially above 600hz he states:

"I'm really happy with the sound of this dome. Resolution and clarity is amazing, and it's quite easy to setup. Smooth, uncolored sound with no excessive glare or heavy low end resonance as with typical cone mids (out of the box). For car use I'd suggest 300hz-10khz. Distortion does rise above 600hz, but nothing that would be significant for car use. 

In many ways, very similar to the Dayton reference rs52 in build and sound. Flat response from around 300hz-10khz, with a single well defined breakup mode above that. Sensitivity at 92dbwm. Similar rear chamber and removable faceplate. OD 5", ID 3.5".

With the 2 samples I was able to measure, the Diyma 2" in both cases had a more symmetrical BL curve and lower inductance variance. Both rs52 units had a significant rearward offset in the bl curve. As you can see though, inductance variance has a very minor impact on distortion with this unit.

Availibility within 1 month. Price about the same as rs52"

Both reviews contain accurate measurements but I detect a degree of home cooking here.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> Both reviews contain accurate measurements but I detect a degree of home cooking here.


huh? "Homemade sounds best"?


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

3.5max6spd said:


> huh? "Homemade sounds best"?


That's the point I'm trying to make. It doesn't matter what site you are on, if you go to Rockford's forum there will be a slight bias toward their products, and I'm sure you'll find the same thing at any of the forums administered and moderated by the mfg....including Hybrid Audio. To npdang's credit he's allowing this thread and discussion to continue even though some of the posts do not reflect favorably on DIYMA. I know a number of forums where this topic would have been locked or deleted all together. This shows that he does try hard to be openminded and objective and I respect him for that!


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> Both reviews contain accurate measurements but I detect a degree of home cooking here.


im sorry man, you have very valuable points, and have a right to say them, but all your post amount to this

you are questioning a persons integrity, which is the point I disagree with. this is the guys time, money and effort, and you are callin him a "home cooker" thats not cool man. 

dude isnt using a radio shack mic to get all this information, last I checked its not like you can go to best buy to get a klippel 

no one has gone over to buwaldahybrids,and questioned him as being dishonest and or dishonorable as you have done here over the last few days. 

and since its obvious that you HAVE HEARD the legatias, why didnt you just POST YOUR OPINION OF THEM as a point of opposition--instead of acting like you had never heard them or something. especially since you guys are team hybrid. 

sorry I think THAT is dishonst IMO,


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

newtitan said:


> no one has gone over to buwaldahybrids,and questioned him as being dishonest and or dishonorable.


I couldn't help to read this and smile. Yes, it's happened several times! In fact, it got so bad for a while that I actually had to launch an "Altima Liquid Cooling" webpage, with detailed photos and write-up, so these fine folks would stop calling me a liar and a cheat. Funny, that used to be "their" favorite topic, and now that that's been put to bed, I can only imagine what's next! I have broad shoulders though---to me, it's actually a high compliment when peple spend hours talking and fretting. :blush: 

Scott


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

DigitalBoomer said:


> That's the point I'm trying to make. It doesn't matter what site you are on, if you go to Rockford's forum there will be a slight bias toward their products, and I'm sure you'll find the same thing at any of the forums administered and moderated by the mfg....including Hybrid Audio. To npdang's credit he's allowing this thread and discussion to continue even though some of the posts do not reflect favorably on DIYMA. I know a number of forums where this topic would have been locked or deleted all together. This shows that he does try hard to be openminded and objective and I respect him for that!


Then why ride NPDANG? He's not the first, nor the only person to say the legatia's aren't up to par.

Your assertion that he's somehow biased because he has a dollar to make is ridiculous. Remember, this site existed long before he had any product to sell. If you'll also remember, he was testing drivers on ECA long before this site existed. There's never really been much of a bias here because this place wasn't setup for the sole purpose to discuss a particular brand.

So what's your real reason?


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## johny_gudhel (Jul 6, 2006)

Wow,
3 of you came to his house, disrespecting him, questions his integrity/test, and basically make a mess in this house. I'll ban your butts if I were him.
We were doing FINE without you three here.
I don't think any of us here needs your World Crapion Iasca and highly retarded butts in this forum


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Scott Buwalda said:


> I couldn't help to read this and smile. Yes, it's happened several times! In fact, it got so bad for a while that I actually had to launch an "Altima Liquid Cooling" webpage, with detailed photos and write-up, so these fine folks would stop calling me a liar and a cheat. Funny, that used to be "their" favorite topic, and now that that's been put to bed, I can only imagine what's next! I have broad shoulders though---to me, it's actually a high compliment when peple spend hours talking and fretting. :blush:
> 
> Scott


So then I take it you're condemning Andy Jones's and DigitalBoomer's posts just like you've (rightfully) condemned those who called you a "liar and a cheat"? Or are you supporting an eye-for-an-eye kind of approach?


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> I really didn't mean for this topic to become a pep rally for the Legatia. I really wanted to know if the ones listed for sale were indeed the ones that npdang used in his test? If these are indeed the same drivers were they actually burned in for 20 hours like npdang stated and was the seller aware of this an chose not to disclose it or were they never actually broken in before they were tested? I don't think that question was ever answered.


It's fascinating to me that you've yet to develop the nerve to contact me through p.m. and, yet, you choose to question me and impugn my character and integrity on a public forum. You're more than happy to post here and on other forum(s) about what you've "heard through the grapevine", although when it comes to contacting me you are a coward. Sir, you do not know me and I find your behavior particularly galling.

I owe you nothing, although what you have earned is my singular contempt.

Up to this point, I have chosen to keep the history of the 3's between myself and the buyer. The ONLY person to even contact me about their background was Scott, who I consider to be my friend, and my decision was to not reply. Whether or not I'm correct in my assumption which, judging from the bent of this thread, I appear to be... I saw the potential for the re-opening and rehashing of this tired topic.

From a whole different perspective... I've lost three friends to cancer this year, another to a heart attack, and three others to overdoses. As most people know, Scott suffered the tragic loss (once again, my condolences to you, Scott) of his mother.

I hope you'll excuse me if I find this topic of where, when, how much, who's right, who's in who's pocket, who's lying, or whatever else people want to ***** about to pretty inconsequential. Life is short, so try getting one.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

johny_gudhel said:


> Wow,
> disrespecting him, questions his integrity/test,


Show me where i have "disrepect(ed)" him or questioned his "integrity". 

So are the only posts that are allowed here ones that heap praise on people and tell them they are perfect and doing every thing right? Any questions are deemed to be "disrespect(ful)" and questioning someone's "integrity"? If so, ban me. I can do without that fantasy world.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> Then why ride NPDANG? He's not the first, nor the only person to say the legatia's aren't up to par.
> 
> Your assertion that he's somehow biased because he has a dollar to make is ridiculous. Remember, this site existed long before he had any product to sell. If you'll also remember, he was testing drivers on ECA long before this site existed. There's never really been much of a bias here because this place wasn't setup for the sole purpose to discuss a particular brand.
> 
> So what's your real reason?


I'm not saying he's biased, I'm saying that the connection with DIYMA products would have a tendency to slightly color his objectivity when testing DIYMA products. I detected some of that in the examples I cited. Just the fact that DIYMA product reviews get a sticky shows that. But this is a DIYMA forum so their products should be promoted first and foremost. I have the upmost respect for npdang. I lack both the intelligence and technical skills to do what he does and I value his opinions when it comes to his reviews on all products...including the Legatia. I had heard the Legatias in 3 different installs and was so impressed with them I considered buying them. I came to this forum wondering if npdang had reviewed them and after reading the 2 reviews I was scratching my head wondering if we heard the same speaker. 
I came to the conclusion that despite the data I would try a set out on my own. Afterall how a speaker performs on a sound board outside of the mobile electrical environment sometimes has little to do with how it performs in a properly installed and tuned set-up. I still haven't heard them in my own car because the install isn't quite finished. 

The Legatia's I've heard were all broken in according to the recommendations of Hybrid Audio Technologies. I spoke with some of the installers and they told me that there is significance improvement in the performance of the driver after a proper break in period. When I saw the link advertising what I was told were the drivers npdang had tested I started to wonder if they were indeed broken in prior to testing since the seller said they were new-in-the-box with only 10 min. playing time. That's what prompted my initial post. I never expected it to turn into this! Either the seller is misinformed or misrepresenting the Legatias he's selling, or they never were really broken in. That is all I want to know. I would think that if DIYMA came to npdang to test a new product and the instructions said to play pink noise on them for at least 25 hours before testing them he wouldn't just warm them up for 10 minutes then run the test.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

double post edit


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Kevin, you are absolutely right. This is my last post on this thread. Losing seven people is incomprehensible. Take care of yourself.

Scott


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> Show me where i have "disrepect(ed)" him or questioned his "integrity".
> 
> So are the only posts that are allowed here ones that heap praise on people and tell them they are perfect and doing every thing right? Any questions are deemed to be "disrespect(ful)" and questioning someone's "integrity"? If so, ban me. I can do without that fantasy world.


Andy, you've been very diplomatic in this thread, but also careful to veil your accusations behind what you claim to feel is nothing more than an "appearance" of impropriety. I asked you a couple questions earlier about what sort of changes you'd like to see npdang make to address this concern of yours, and was disappointed not to get a reply. Care to take a stab at it now?


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Kevin, you are absolutely right. This is my last post on this thread. Losing seven people is incomprehensible. Take care of yourself.
> 
> Scott


Thank you, Scott  

You've got e-mail


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^ I totally missed that question--I apologize for that (I've actually responded twice with long responses to several questions--but the forum locked up on me and deleted my response--may be my computer--I'm a computer moron).

Honestly, I don't see how any manufacturer can test any other manufacturer's products and _look_ unbiased doing it. I just don't see how it is possible. Take a step back and change the characters. If Manville Smith started testing DIYMA products and posting up results--what would be your initial response? Be honest. 

As to the appearance of impropriety. Trust me that is always more important than actual impropriety. You can address impropriety---it is almost impossible to successfully address the appearance of impropriety. That is why it is always best to avoid it. I didn't mean that as any type of "veil". I meant exactly that.


[EDIT]On a positive note, my post count on this forum has quadrupled in size in the last two days


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> ^ I totally missed that question--I apologize for that (I've actually responded twice with long responses to several questions--but the forum locked up on me and deleted my response--may be my computer--I'm a computer moron).


Some people have issues with lockups with this kind of messageboard. It's not uncommon. When I post through IE from another computer, it often takes several minutes to post long replies.



> Honestly, I don't see how any manufacturer can test any other manufacturer's products and _look_ unbiased doing it. I just don't see how it is possible. Take a step back and change the characters. If Manville Smith started testing DIYMA products and posting up results--what would be your initial response? Be honest.


My response? If he outlined exactly how he performed the tests and even provided basic instruction on how to read the results, I'd have absolutely no problem with it. If JL started posting unfavorable graphs of their competitors' products in their sales brochures, then that'd be a different story. Npdang is clearly doing something completely different, and also encourages others to post their own measurements. He's left that section of the forum open to everybody and created another section for "reviews". Recently, he urged others to start contributing to it.

Frankly, I see absolutely nothing wrong with any of that.

EDIT: By the way, for a long time people representing various manufacturers have posted on message boards and usenet touting their own products and pointing out what they feel to be shortcomings of other products. I can think of three or four guys in particular (including Manville) who spent time in rec.audio.car (among other places) years ago doing just that, but they gained the respect of almost all of the regulars anyway. Why? Because they were fair and always explained their stances. I don't think that's unreasonable either. And I would suggest that npdang isn't anywhere close to showing such favoritism, even though it's HIS forum and basically his dime.



> As to the appearance of impropriety. Trust me that is always more important than actual impropriety. You can address impropriety---it is almost impossible to successfully address the appearance of impropriety. That is why it is always best to avoid it. I didn't mean that as any type of "veil". I meant exactly that.


It's npdang's concern how he conducts his business and whether or not he feels that an "appearance" of impropriety will negatively impact his reputation. It's not your concern and it's not my concern. He's obviously heard your opinion, which seems to be that impropriety could potentially be a concern to some people (who haven't yet come forward, by the way). Frankly, I don't think it's your place to criticize his business practices unless you're put off by them.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

If Manville tested a product, I'd take him at his word until he's showed me otherwise.

That goes for NPDANG and Adire and anyone else who test's.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

@Scott, I don't appreciate some of the comments about me on Talkaudio. If the Leg3's had tested well, I don't think you or Puggie would be making them. You've put the entire burden of proof on me... hardly fair, considering that you more than anyone has a strong interest in this review. 

Honestly, this driver is nothing more to me than one of a dozen drivers that passes through here each month for review. Why anyone would think I went out of my way to fabricate this elaborate scheme that somehow only affects the Leg3, but not the Seas Excel, Peerless, Scan-Speak, RS52, or otherwise eludes me.

If you have any LMS and MLSSA (strange that you would call PRAXIS a "soundcard based program", yet praise a program still running on an EISA card) please share them. I think it would help to clear up a few things. 

I've been very open to discussing my measurements... and any associated flaws or not. Yet I find strangely, no one wants to talk about them. Rather, they'd prefer to question my integrity.

So to put this back on topic let me start with a few points:

1. Setup - I use Praxis with Audpod and Kim G. calibrated high spl mic. 

2. Non-baffled test - I've stated clearly many times that this test was unbaffled. I also explain what this has meant many times. If I have to hear Scott say the curves don't look anything like ours one more time I'm going to scream 

3. Distortion test - Fine, you think my setup is a piece of crap... totally inaccurate.. 20db higher etc. Strange, there's many other drivers out there that performed well. I guess they must be REALLY good then  Also keep in mind it was compared in the exact same conditions as the Trius side by side, in which case the Leg3's had higher non-linear distortion. And exactly how should a 3" driver with what appears to be (no offense) an unremarkable motor design going to perform?

4. Anechoic chamber aka my garage - Joe D'appolito, Vance Dickanson, Linkwitz, etc. seem to have no issues with semi-anechoic methods. I'm honestly curious about why an anechoic chamber is so important, and exactly what benefits it would offer and what evidence exists to support it as compared to other techniques.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> ^ I totally missed that question--I apologize for that (I've actually responded twice with long responses to several questions--but the forum locked up on me and deleted my response--may be my computer--I'm a computer moron).
> 
> Honestly, I don't see how any manufacturer can test any other manufacturer's products and _look_ unbiased doing it. I just don't see how it is possible. Take a step back and change the characters. If Manville Smith started testing DIYMA products and posting up results--what would be your initial response? Be honest.
> 
> ...


 If Manville Smith, Dan Wiggins, anyone really tested my drivers I would have no problem with that. If I had any issue, I would attempt to discover what their testing methodology was and duplicate it for myself. I would not however, call into question their integrity.. nor make claims about measurements for which I have not provided.

The one question that has not been answered is why would I single the Leg3 out? 

And what exactly doesn't mesh? It's quite well known that a "warm" sounding driver is due to higher amounts of even order distortion.


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

Scott Buwalda said:


> The L3's are currently at Becker UK for evaluation. Puggie, the resident expert on talkaudio.co.uk did some prelim. testing, and found distortion numbers to be upwards of 20 dB lower than tested on this forum, using his array of professonal testing gear at his laboratory. Here's the link where he discusses this: http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?t=159363
> 
> If numbers are so important to everyone, they will be posted on the www.buwaldahybrids.com/phpBB forum when I receive them from Becker.


Great to see that more test results will be made available to the community. Just out of curiousity, what other speakers will he be testing for comparative purposes, and will those results also be available?


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

npdang--none of my comments were in regards to the L3. They were in regards to your testing drivers and publishing the results as a whole. Not about any specific driver. 

I agree with Mark(?) that it really isn't any of my business--so I will just shut up about that. 

If you come to finals--you are more than welcome to spend all the time you want in my truck. I don't think you will hear any distortion (unless I can't get my midbass issue fixed  ).


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

I think we need a thread that deals with the audibility and interpretation of distortion. Me, I sometimes enjoy the good, full bodied warmth of a speaker (or amp) with higher 2nd order distortion. Or the hyper detail of a speaker with rising 3rd order distortion in the upper freqs.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I wouldn't mind *not* testing drivers. It takes alot of time, money, and effort... as well as having to deal with stuff like this when the test doesn't turn out well. I would much rather someone else do it to be honest. I also like to think of it as a system of checks and balances that keeps me honest as well. Look how much crap I got over a review, even in the absence of any contradictary evidence lol.

By distortion, I don't mean that the driver is literally distorting and breaking up in the common sense that people believe. Only that it's tonality changes as you increase the volume. All drivers suffer from this effect, even the best although to a lesser degree. Much like tube amps, sometimes the right distortion profile can sound pleasing.

I believe I did finally catch something with the measurements however. Although I stated a 90db spl level, Praxis references spl to 1v not 2v as would be required for one watt. Therefore the spl level could be 6db higher than actually stated, in which case the distortion measurements look much better although still not as good as the Trius.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

I want to take this opportunity to offer my apology to Kevin for implying that he was misrepresenting the Legatia's in his ad. My sole purpose in creating this post was to determine if the Legatias were indeed broken in for 20 hours as reported or just warmed up. I tried to word it in a way so as to not offend npdang on his home turf. 

Those of you who know Scott understand how much of an impact the negative review had on his potential sales. It was harder for him to take because his own personal testing and data indicated otherwise. Scott has invested an enormous amount of personal resources in developing what he hoped would be a high end audophile quality driver. I believe it is his opinion that (in the words of Maverick on Top Gun) "The data on the MIG's is innacurate."

In posting this topic I have solved nothing and opened up a can of worms that in the end only put my name on a number of s&^t lists. In the end it will be the ears of the listeners and the evaluations of judges in the lanes that will ultimately determine the true quality of this driver. I want to state for the record that nobody put me up to this. I posted everything on my own accord. If I offended anybody please accept my apology and lets bring this to a conclusion. I'm sure the answer to my question may never be accurately addressed but at this point it doesn't really matter. You at least have to admit it has been a lively and interesting 2 days!!


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## JoeHemi57 (Mar 28, 2006)

I know Boomer and Andy from Sounddomain and i consider them 2 of the smartest people i've talked to online however i think they are placing too much emphasis on how the speakers perform in the sq lanes. 

Sq is subjective and everybody has different tastes which is why i have refrained from even recommending components or tweeters anymore. a sub is one thing but imo there are just too many speakers out there to recommend one over another to someone who may have completely different tastes and listening habits.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Digital: They were not broken in for 20 hrs. I played pink noise for 15 mins, measured t/s parameters, gave it another 15 mins, and then re-measured and there was no change. At that point I considered them "broken-in". I also ran them through the Klippel for a good 30-40 mins with the protection set to min.

I think alot of the confusion came about because people don't know how to make the connection between a distortion plot to what they hear subjectively, and not directly because I posted a review. I don't think it's entirely fair to blame me for any loss of business, especially when I've gone to great lengths to explain distortion testing and encourage people to test for themselves many times.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

JoeHemi57 said:


> Sq is subjective and everybody has different tastes which is why i have refrained from even recommending components or tweeters anymore.



I would have agreed with you somewhat until this weekend. Of 6 Judges that judged my truck this weekend, there was never more than a 1 point deviation between any of the scoresheets. That is getting pretty close to getting rid of the subjective nature. That is getting to the point where you can say---it sounds like X. 

But that really doesn't mean a lot in the point of this thread.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

npdang said:


> Digital: They were not broken in for 20 hrs. I played pink noise for 15 mins, measured t/s parameters, gave it another 15 mins, and then re-measured and there was no change. At that point I considered them "broken-in". I also ran them through the Klippel for a good 30-40 mins with the protection set to min.
> 
> I think alot of the confusion came about because people don't know how to make the connection between a distortion plot to what they hear subjectively, and not directly because I posted a review. I don't think it's entirely fair to blame me for any loss of business, especially when I've gone to great lengths to explain distortion testing and encourage people to test for themselves many times.


It wasn't the review that caused a loss of business it was peoples incorrect interpretations of the data presented. Most car audio consumers will interpret the term distortion to mean something bad, especially when it's compared to another driver that costs considerably less money but doesn't have as much distortion. Based on my experience listening to the Legatias raw out-of-the-box and then again after 20 to 25 hours of playing time I personally don't think the suspension was sufficiently loosened up for the driver to exhibit it's optimum performance. Break in time is an issue for a whole other topic. I'm sure you broke them in for what you thought was a sufficient amount of time and were satisfied that what you had done was adequate for the task at hand based upon your prior experience with other drivers. 

Thank you for clearing up the misunderstanding about the break in time. I had suspected that Kevin was not hiding anything. I am curious as to why you stated that they had 20 hrs of break in time (or did I just mis-read it..I'll have to check again), but since you have stated your actual warm up proceedure I don't think it is necessary to pursue that point any further.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I went through much the same criticisms with the Phass drivers. In the end I spent 100 hrs breaking them in... something I never want to do again lol. I believe they tested very poorly in non-linear distortion as well, which was later confirmed by Vance Dickanson from CA&E. Yet interestingly enough, they reviewed well subjectively... I believe warm and laid back were the words used.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

npdang said:


> I went through much the same criticisms with the Phass drivers. In the end I spent 100 hrs breaking them in... something I never want to do again lol. I believe they tested very poorly in non-linear distortion as well, which was later confirmed by Vance Dickanson from CA&E. Yet interestingly enough, they reviewed well subjectively... I believe warm and laid back were the words used.


I've heard the Phass drivers and loved them. I'd like to be able to use their amplifiers and drivers in my install but I have a problem spending over $5k for a 55w 2 channel amplifier! Some people just don't realize that distortion can be a good thing..depending upon your taste in music. Distortion from clipping and cone break up is an entirely different animal!


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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)

I think that it is a great idea for one company to test other companies product. If that wasn't done then we wouldn;t have so many options and audio itself would never progress. We would have just A, B this and that. No gimmicks, or much of competition from one company to another to fight for the consumers attention. I'm all for it.


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

npdang said:


> I believe I did finally catch something with the measurements however. Although I stated a 90db spl level, Praxis references spl to 1v not 2v as would be required for one watt. Therefore the spl level could be 6db higher than actually stated, in which case the distortion measurements look much better although still not as good as the Trius.


VERY interesting. Curious, would that apply to all of the Praxis results posted here?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

PlanetGranite said:


> VERY interesting. Curious, would that apply to all of the Praxis results posted here?


 I usually correct for this, which is why you see dBr in the vertical scale instead of dBspl. I don't know for a fact that this is the case with the Leg3's, but I'm going to assume it's so. Given that someone else has recorded significantly lower levels of distortion, a 6db difference in output could account for that (2x the excursion), especially with such a small driver.


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## mulletboy2 (Aug 17, 2006)

First post here.. hey guys...

I have to say npdang, it took balls to admit that, and much respect to you for doing so.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2006)

> AJ, I see what you're tring to do here, and entrapment is not cool by me. Every last parameter of this, and every other Legatia driver was designed be me, and then I made materials science requirements, like the paper cone and inverted high-loss rubber surround, voice coil type and diameter, motor sturcture, and etc. Twenty five samples were then tested using MLSSA and LMS, baffled, in an anechoic chamber, with a microphone calibration proceedure before each sequence, to ensure accuracy and precision (look up these definitions if you're foggy about them). The drivers were then sent to me for testing *in a car*. This went on four four or five iterations until you see what we have here.


Entrapment? What am I, the FBI  ? You are clearly stating that your driver was designed by measurable parameters. That's good, because that's the only way they can be designed. When you say "tested" in a "car", do you mean measured, or listened to? What car? What would be the point of that exercise? Was that interiors transfer function representative of all the cars the driver is to be installed in  ?
If testing was already performed by both you and the build house, why didn't you present your own numbers to contradict NP's - since you are clearly calling them suspect without any countering scientific data - unless you consider "earwitness" accounts by your friends to be data. Why would you send them off to a 3rd party testing facility when you already designed the driver using testing? Don't you already have all the relevant distortion numbers?

Which brings me to


> to ensure accuracy and precision (look up these definitions if you're foggy about them).


I'm going to assume you mean accuracy and precision _of measurement_ .
A 3" paper cone driver with last centuries motor design will be _anything but_ accurate and precise. Warm and fuzzy maybe.
Or as this Legatia owner says


> Some people just don't realize that distortion can be a good thing.


 I _definately_ fall into that catergory LOL.
So no, I haven't heard your $250 paper cone, generic motor wunder drivers. Nor would I have any desire to. I've heard my share of Fostex, PHY-HP, Lowther, etc,etc,etc. over the last twenty something years of speakerbuilding to know what type of sound we're talking about here. No thanks.
Even if that's what some 19yr old bling kid who thinks an expensive driver must sound good, or self appointed


> former world champions and highly regarded professionals


 thinks LOL.
Well, I think I've given this driver enough free advertising for now.

cheers,

AJ


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## johny_gudhel (Jul 6, 2006)

DigitalBoomer said:


> I want to take this opportunity to offer my apology to Kevin for implying that he was misrepresenting the Legatia's in his ad. My sole purpose in creating this post was to determine if the Legatias were indeed broken in for 20 hours as reported or just warmed up. I tried to word it in a way so as to not offend npdang on his home turf.
> 
> Those of you who know Scott understand how much of an impact the negative review had on his potential sales. It was harder for him to take because his own personal testing and data indicated otherwise. Scott has invested an enormous amount of personal resources in developing what he hoped would be a high end audophile quality driver. I believe it is his opinion that (in the words of Maverick on Top Gun) "The data on the MIG's is innacurate."
> 
> In posting this topic I have solved nothing and opened up a can of worms that in the end only put my name on a number of s&^t lists. In the end it will be the ears of the listeners and the evaluations of judges in the lanes that will ultimately determine the true quality of this driver. I want to state for the record that nobody put me up to this. I posted everything on my own accord. If I offended anybody please accept my apology and lets bring this to a conclusion. I'm sure the answer to my question may never be accurately addressed but at this point it doesn't really matter. You at least have to admit it has been a lively and interesting 2 days!!


I am sure you DID offend people  
That's uncalled for, even if you are a world champ, which I doubt you are.



> Originally Posted by DigitalBoomer
> Aren't you the same guy who came in dead last at finals?


Andy Jones,

You worded yourself really well, but everyone knows what intentions are, 3 of you all the sudden jumped in and open can of worms in npdang's house.
No explanations needed, everyone can see your intentions.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

We’ve seen a few cases now where economic harm is being claimed as a consequence of npdang’s testing procedures. A complex conspiracy through which he will profit. Since he has published his methodology, it would be very easy to prove or disprove the accuracy of his results. Those immediately assuming unethical motives without demonstrating any errors only make themselves look pathetic and frankly, pretty unethical themselves.

Re-run his tests. Run your preferred tests on a representative sample of the drivers he has tested. Show us where he is wrong or show us why your tests are superior and don’t demonstrate the same qualitative relationships between the drivers that his tests do. npdang has established a base-line procedure that seems to work very well. As it is, attacking him and his results on vague ethical/competitive grounds sounds like sour grapes. We are looking at numbers. They can be shown to be right or wrong, valid or meaningless. A lot of whispering, whimpering and whining. I still don’t see any substance.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Hello:

Several pages ago, I decided to stop posting. However, I have recently learned that there was likely an error in the original testing of the Legatia L3, and how there was no correction made for the driver and input voltage, and the distinct possibility of the driver being tested at +6 dB to its counterparts.

I noticed that both the "Legatia vs. Trius" thread and the "Legatia 3"" threads were edited yesterday, and just thought it might be nice to get some clarification. I come in absolutely pure motivations, with nothing to be read 'in between the lines.'

The Legatia L3 was apparently tested without a voltage correction. Since the Trius was tested at 96 dB, does this mean the Legatia L3 was tested at 102 dB? Or is it that the Trius was tested at 90 dB, and the Legatia at 96 dB? If the Legatia was tested at 102 dB, I can assume at least 3 dB of power compression, significantly increasing distortion (requesting a 3" speaker to produce full bandwidth at 102 dB, completely dipole, would result in significant, non-linear and logarithmically higher distortion). And if the testing was done at 96 dB, and the Trius at 90 dB, there's no clear correlation there either. Of course the Legatia will show a much higher level of distortion, as a small piston driver, unbaffled and completely dipole, with no crossover filtering afforded to the unit, as it tries in vein to produce tones at and below its Fs.

Many thanks for this opportunity and for any and all clarifications.

Scott


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

weird..


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## mulletboy2 (Aug 17, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> I still don’t see any substance.


Despite the fact he himself has owned up to a serious flaw in his testing/comparison?


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

johny_gudhel said:


> I am sure you DID offend people
> That's uncalled for, even if you are a world champ, which I doubt you are.


My apology also extends to Dual700 for that out of line comment. That was part of my SoundDomain OT mentality taking over. I saw a pwnt opportunity and took it and I agree... that was totally uncalled for.  

You are correct..I am not a world champ....yet!


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

and the buzzards circle lol

I find it impressive to admit a mistake and them make amends for it

digitalboomer/andyjones have served there "team" well , now can we please get onto something more important

I REALLY hope npdang still post his reviews in spite of all this drama

and I STILL dont understand why hybrid audio didnt just post there own tech data??


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## mulletboy2 (Aug 17, 2006)

newtitan - buzzards circle? This whole drama (your word, not mine) has cost Hybrid Audio in ways no one would expect you to know. The results have been disputed right from the very start. Are you saying you're surprised that people take an interest when it comes to light that the publisher of the results finds fault in his testing?

I hope npdang still posts reviews in spite of all of this drama too ... a re-test of the L3's would be a fine place to start.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Newtitan if you had to field the number of emails, calls, questions, and ignorant posters on others forums that I have had to field because of that test--you would think this is important also. 

I wasn't trying to "serve my team"---as much as trying to get the ground back to being level for a speaker. It isn't fun to have to deal with preconceived opinions from almost everyone who listens to your truck---even some judges.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

man I read SD, and talk audio, and I have read ALL the neg posts you BOTH have made about npdang and DIYMA, please dont make it out like you two are innocent concerned audio heads- and as if the L3 are the best driver ever made

you two have an agenda and I think it stinks

you know what lets do this ILL BUY TWO peerless VLINES drives and send them to you FOR FREE, and I wonder what you view of your "TEAM" driver is 

I dont know SBuwalda nor npdang from a can of paint, but im not sure id want you two guys reppin my compnay if I had one--as you have really showed your true colors IMO


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

newtitan said:


> you two have an agenda and I think it stinks


My agenda is what I stated that is it.

I am not a rep for Buwalda Hybrids. I don't get paid a dime to use his speakers or to post anything. I paid for everything in my truck. I can switch out anything in my truck that I want to. I don't have a single contract with a single company--verbal or otherwise.

You are assuming that we are here for some greater purpose--when that simply isn't the case.

To be blunt--- FU if you think anything I have posted here is more than what I have said or is not 100% honest.

EDIT: If you read the other forums--you will see that every time I recommend the L3 the post begins with [Biased answer]. Except the first time because at that time I wasn't on the team.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

mulletboy2 said:


> Despite the fact he himself has owned up to a serious flaw in his testing/comparison?


I'd say even more so. I haven't said his numbers are correct - I have no idea. I just know he is posting numbers that help us compare drivers. My problem is the assumption that IF there are problems with the tests, that they are there intentionally. I see no evidence of anything like that.

My point is - and this applies to all Internet marketing - if a hobby site does your brand damage, you jump on it with proof. YOU point out the error, based on your own documented and repeatable tests. By YOU, I mean the manufacturer, not you mulletboy2 (by the way, how've you been?)

You don't attack on character. Following my scenario, you would have npdang not only apologizing, but in your corner. More important, future Googling on the product or manufacturer's name would return what amounts to an endorsement from a non-partisan tester, rather than the many pages of name calling that this thread basically adds up to.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

Andy Jones said:


> To be blunt--- FU if you think anything I have posted here is more than what I have said or is not 100% honest.


and as I said before you have already shown your true colors by your tone and attempt at PC language, Im not even trying to play internet thuggery with you, cuss me out if you want, doubt youd do it in person

whatever man

enjoy your anger and false pretenses


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

I don't hide behind a fake name. That is my name. I have an email visible. I listed where I could be found at several shows over the next few months. Nothing I said here was "PC"--it was what I wanted to say. I will say anything I said here to anyone who wants to find me at the MANY shows I listed. 

I don't have a hidden agenda. Dispite your inability to grasp that concept---my only agenda is what I posted above. That's it. 

Get over yourself. You are not the great mind reader you think you.


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## mulletboy2 (Aug 17, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> My problem is the assumption that IF there are problems with the tests, that they are there intentionally. I see no evidence of anything like that.


Well, it appears I may have jumped the gun in those assumptions, and I'm not above saying I'm sorry... so, FWIW (which I doubt amounts to very much at this point)... npdang - I'm sorry for my previous accusations regarding your motives on TA. Contrary to newtitan's previous statement, I don't think I've made any comment regarding you or DIYMA on Carsound, but if I have, again, I'm sorry.



> My point is - and this applies to all Internet marketing - if a hobby site does your brand damage, you jump on it with proof. YOU point out the error, based on your own documented and repeatable tests. By YOU, I mean the manufacturer, not you mulletboy2


Well, that's certainly one way you can go, lol. My own experience says that fighting figures with figures, especially ones which a large majority of readers may not understand (not DIYMA regulars before anyone jumps on me - people who hit google looking for reviews without necessarily understanding more technical aspects of speaker testing), proves nothing except that you're willing to fight your own corner. Some people will change their minds, some won't, others will be put off from buying the product etc...

In the end, very few people will read both lots of technical data from start to finish and draw the correct conclusion as to which is right. And of course, npdang could come along and dispute the new findings for whatever reason he chooses (as could anyone else), and then you just end up going in circles getting more and more technical, albeit each iteration taking significantly longer and costing significantly more. So I wouldn't say that this approach is by any means fool-proof... which is why I'm saying what would be ideal is for npdang to re-review them, following procedures that everyone's happy with. The results would then be unquestionable by either side, and we'd have results that everyone would be accepting of 



> (by the way, how've you been?)


Busy mate, lol, yourself?



> You don't attack on character.


I agree wholeheartedly with that... my comments on TA were a moment of weakness. As said previously, although you guys may not have seen it (all), the repurcussions of this review have been pretty hard and extremely tiring to deal with. Talkaudio was the one place where this review hadn't really had any significant effect, because enough respected people have tried, tested and vouched for the speakers' quality.. and then jonash came along (whom had previously sang the praises of the L3's over on Carsound/ECA) and tried to discredit them, based only on this review, not personal experience or anything else.



> Following my scenario, you would have npdang not only apologizing, but in your corner. More important, future Googling on the product or manufacturer's name would return what amounts to an endorsement from a non-partisan tester, rather than the many pages of name calling that this thread basically adds up to.


If you read back through my own and Scott's comments on this thread, neither of us has said anything against npdang here - we have both been completely civilised. I would love for there to be a peaceful and total resolution to the entire thing, as I know would Scott. I have no desire for it to drag out, or to argue with people I've never met.. I'd just like to see what I consider a more representative review to be posted by npdang, and the whole thing put to bed. Perhaps I'm wishing for too much, but it's a nice thought anyway.

And just to clarify for newtitan - I'm not a rep for Hybrid Audio. I'm team leader for Team Hybrids UK, a friend of Scott's, and I do him the favour or providing a place for him to stock speakers in the UK until he settles on a distributor over here.

Regards

Mark


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

Rudeboy said:


> You don't attack on character. Following my scenario, you would have npdang not only apologizing, but in your corner. More important, future Googling on the product or manufacturer's name would return what amounts to an endorsement from a non-partisan tester, rather than the many pages of name calling that this thread basically adds up to.


I don't see a single comment in this thread that could be constued as being an attack on npdang's character. I know that I personally stated in more than one response that I have the upmost respect for him and I'm sure Scott feels the same way. 

The problem here is that from the very first review the data on the Legatia was innacurate. Npdang was professional enough to review his data and find the mistake and edit his review of the L3 and the Trius comparison to reflect that. Nobody at Team Hybrids or HAT thinks that anything was done intentionally. The resulting interpretation by potential customers of that incorrect data caused HAT to loose a number of potential buyers. This has equated into substantial lost income for HAT. I commend Scott for attempting to resolve this matter through this forum rather then in court where many issues like this end up. 

I would also like to state that no one is suggesting that npdang discontinue his valuable work on this forum. I know his reviews have helped me on more than one occasion. When a person presents themselves as a competent professional (and npdang is indeed a competent professional), evaluates products, and offers up their testing data and opinions to the buying public there has to be a corresponding degree of accountability and liability if mistakes are made...intentional or not.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Gentlemen:

PLEASE stop this. PLEASE stop posting. PLEASE let me talk...does anyone want to hear from ME? There are really only three people that matter on this thread: NPDang, Kevin K, and me. The rest of you are just here to watch and perhaps to make things lively (great job by the way).

First, Hybrid Audio Technologies has one person on the payroll. That's me. And when I mean "payroll", I mean that I am paying to run the company. I am the ONLY Hybrid Audio "rep" on this thread. So if you want to evaluate contemptuous and argumentative behavior on behalf of Hybrid Audio, you'll need to look only at my responses in this thread. The Team Hybrids members here are passionate, and I encourage that, but they by no means represent the company. *I* represent the company.

Secondly, the reason our data has never been presented was that I was in a no win situation; damned if I do, and damned if I don't. My only recourse was trying to establish "reasonable doubt" in the testing sequence...lack of baffle, lack of acoustic chamber, lack of mic calibration, and etc. It's just business; there was nothing personal about trying to establish reasonable doubt. It's done every day in the court room. So why didn't I present my own data? Data from Hybrid Audio? Can you honestly, 100% emphatically say that data that I presented would have been accepted by this forum as true and correct? No way. It would have been viewed as a company's "lame" attempt at massaging the data and countering the original testing. It would have ended up much the same way this thread has gone; with tempers flaring and innuendos of impropriety. This was not for lack of people asking me to do so; that guy BigTube asked me why I wasn't countering the test results, and I said "I am going to have to be a little gentlemanly about this whole ordeal." I have been on internet forums for 10 years now. You are guilty until proven innocent. And even with data from Linkwitz, there still would be skeptics here. I can only imagine how data from Hybrid Audio would have been viewed. You guys would have thrown me on a cross and nailed me to it. I would have still been labeled a desperate business owner trying to combat a bad review. So I decided to compile 50 or more subjective reviews instead, and put my effort into Team Hybrids; two members of which remain unbeaten this year, while many others with strong placements. And those still with doubts I have offered a "return them for a full refund if not completely satisfied" approach. So far, none have come back to me; the home audiophile BigTube was one such person that took me up on the offer. And no, I don’t know BigTube from a can of paint either; he's not a Hybrid Audio rep, or a disciple I planted in here. He's an honest-to-goodness customer. There have been 100 or more success stories such as this in the last five months.

Thirdly, and this is the most important, I just need to know what the data is. I have data from different sources, including my own, that is all in agreement, but all of it completely contrary and "not in agreement" with the data presented here four months ago. I have lost thousands of dollars of potential customers because of this review, and I would just like it to be clarified once and for all, so we can move on, and I can try to rebuild my company's reputation.

Normally, I'd say "carry on", but please don't carry on. Please stop posting on this thread. I just really want to hear from one person, that's all.

Scott


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

mulletboy2 said:


> This whole drama (your word, not mine) has cost Hybrid Audio in ways no one would expect you to know.


What has it cost?? I'm of the belief that there is no such thing as bad press. NP did a review, not a dissertation!! 

I have a lot of respect for Scott and NP and I think they both should be respected for what they have contributed. Unfortunately in this case, science has it's limitations. Take a grain of salt with everthing. Value it for what it's worth, not what it *should* be. We seriously need to get some data on the palcebo effect in driver testing and SQ eval. 

I have an honest question for Andy. If I swiched the Legatia for the Trius without your knowledge - direct swap in the middle of the night - do you think a) you could tell and b)your scores would be different the next day in competition??

**Edit** I just read Scott's post above mine and I totally agree with him. The only thing I have to say is that I now own the infamous mids and felt the need to state my opinion.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

B-Squad said:


> I have an honest question for Andy. If I swiched the Legatia for the Trius without your knowledge - direct swap in the middle of the night - do you think a) you could tell and b)your scores would be different the next day in competition??
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Scott, I'm sorry if I've ever given you reason to believe that. I have been corrected many times, by Adire Audio, Frequence, etc. As long as someone can point out contradictary data, or place valid complaints I'm always willing to listen and make corrections. I don't particularly think my reviews are the be all end all, and in fact I encourage and would rather have a multitude of opinions on any driver than simply my own.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Don't I know it. Do I really need to share my test data and subjective impressions? No... but I know how much a good number of people enjoy reading them so I do.


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## honfatboy (Jul 4, 2005)

Can we just compare this thing to an esoteric tube amp (expensive, moderate levels of pleasing distortion) and call it a day?

Geez, its a $250 paper cone 3" driver. That's a ton of money and probably going to be fighting an uphill battle around here, maybe anywhere. You can't release an expensive midrange and not expect take flack for it when it doesn't do everything better than the competition.

And I find it hard to believe that NPDang has that much influence. If he does, don't tell him, because then he'll start charging to be a member and I will have no where to waste time...


I vote to shut this thread down.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

npdang said:


> Do I really need to share my test data and subjective impressions? No... but I know how much a good number of people enjoy reading them so I do.


Not only that (the enjoyment part), but dou you realize how many people have actually learned something one way or another from all the technical stuff that you post?
I/we can't thank you enough for putting so much time, effort and $ for doing it all for us and free of chage. 

Leo


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## rbenz27 (Mar 9, 2006)

I have a solution... I think.

The review board is open to anyone. Please post a review of the driver, any driver you want to review really.

It will be 100 times more of a contribution than a thread like this and will give everyone more reading pleasure.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

rbenz27 said:


> I have a solution... I think.
> 
> The review board is open to anyone. Please post a review of the driver, any driver you want to review really.
> 
> It will be 100 times more of a contribution than a thread like this and will give everyone more reading pleasure.



Why do that when you can whine and moan instead?

I'm definately soured on Hybrid Audio products after this post.

What if Manville Smith took up this type of attitude with everyone that disliked JL products?


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

300Z said:


> Not only that (the enjoyment part), but dou you realize how many people have actually learned something one way or another from all the technical stuff that you post?
> I/we can't thank you enough for putting so much time, effort and $ for doing it all for us and free of chage.
> 
> Leo


I'm one of those who have benefited from his work as well. You have to have a love for this to sacrifice your time and resources without compensation. We are all human and prone to an occasional oversight no matter how talented and experienced we are. It also takes a person of integrity to own up to it when he/she makes a mistake. It's a fact of life that some of the big mistakes we make have no consequences while a minor oversight can have a major impact. In the end we all have to figure out how to make things right and get on with it. 

Thank you npdang for admitting yours and going back and editing accordingly. That shows that you are a man of good character. Keep up the great work you are doing here. We all can benefit from your knowledge and hard work. I'm sure you can tidy things up with Scott and bring this subject to a definative and positive end.

I'll now follow Andy and bow out of this thread. Once again my apologies to any whom I may have offended. You are all quality people in my book....dual700 included!!


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## tdgesq (Apr 16, 2006)

And while we are at it, post the contrary testing data along with the test conditions. Then perhaps we have something to talk and read about other than personal motives.


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> I'm one of those who have benefited from his work as well. You have to have a love for this to sacrifice your time and resources without compensation. We are all human and prone to an occasional oversight no matter how talented and experienced we are. It also takes a person of integrity to own up to it when he/she makes a mistake. It's a fact of life that some of the big mistakes we make have no consequences while a minor oversight can have a major impact. In the end we all have to figure out how to make things right and get on with it.
> 
> Thank you npdang for admitting yours and going back and editing accordingly. That shows that you are a man of good character. Keep up the great work you are doing here. We all can benefit from your knowledge and hard work. I'm sure you can tidy things up with Scott and bring this subject to a definative and positive end.
> 
> I'll now follow Andy and bow out of this thread. Once again my apologies to any whom I may have offended. You are all quality people in my book....dual700 included!!



Thank you, it takes balls to apologize and I admire that


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## dingaling (Apr 14, 2005)

quick question, i was checking out the legetia L3 and it states:

"The motor of the design is very complimentary, utilizing a 1" voice coil, ferrite magnet, and a unique T-yolk and *rear venting chamber * to improve the speaker's power handling. The basket is a high-quality cast aluminum design, and the terminals are gold-plated. In essence, this is a 3" midbass driver, perfect for use in high-quality three-way front stage systems, or in a two-way system with front mounted subwoofer(s)."

Where is the rear vented chamber?


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

Asher,

Apology accepted...

Thank you  

Kevin


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2006)

DigitalBoomer said:


> You are correct..I am not a world champ....yet!





> *Physics Factbook*
> It is estimated that there are approximately 600 million motor vehicles being driven on the streets of earth


The "world" of the ignorant, feeble mind is indeed smaller than the one that the rest of us live on. Much easier to be a "champ" that way I suppose.

cheers,

AJ


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

kevin k. said:


> Asher,
> 
> Apology accepted...
> 
> ...


Thank you! It was really eating at me that I may have implied anything improper on your part...that is surely not what I meant!


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

AJinFLA said:


> The "world" of the ignorant, feeble mind is indeed smaller than the one that the rest of us live on. Much easier to be a "champ" that way I suppose.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> AJ


Don't worry, I promise I won't intrude into your space....I'm sure you are a major property holder in that "world". BTW...Your village called...their idiot is missing and they want you to come home. The stupid...you have to admire their consistancy.

cheers,

DB


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2006)

> The stupid...you have to admire their consistancy.


Its _consistency_ LOL.
But its not really admirable  
Luckily there's no spelling or intelligence requirements needed to become a car sound "world champ". Do let us know when you finally win.
Someone has to tell the rest of the planet about the competition they missed out on without knowing about it. We'll be so jealous.

cheers,

AJ


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## NaamanF (Jan 18, 2006)

Are we done yet?


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

NaamanF said:


> Are we done yet?


No.

And another thing................................


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

npdang said:


> Scott, I'm sorry if I've ever given you reason to believe that. I have been corrected many times, by Adire Audio, Frequence, etc. As long as someone can point out contradictary data, or place valid complaints I'm always willing to listen and make corrections. I don't particularly think my reviews are the be all end all, and in fact I encourage and would rather have a multitude of opinions on any driver than simply my own.
> 
> Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Don't I know it. Do I really need to share my test data and subjective impressions? No... but I know how much a good number of people enjoy reading them so I do.


Please, no more reviews. No advice. No subjective interpretations. No opinions. Since your opinions are respected by many, anything you say can potentially cost some company out there thousands of dollars. According to Scott, that would be your fault.


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## tdgesq (Apr 16, 2006)

Yes, the thousands of dollars was determined in the same manner as the twenty hour break in period. And I just have to say . . .



DigitalBoomer said:


> The stupid...you have to admire their consistancy.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> DB


Believe it or not AJ, that part was a later edit. I was there and saw it happen - you village idiot you.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Thank you all for your courteous and thoughtful response to my last message: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48003&postcount=174 

Perhaps I wasn't clear? Perhaps I was too vague in my wording, and the meaning was lost somehow? I wanted to hear from ONE person, npdang, about how the testing was performed, and what the real results are. The rest of you just want to argue. You all claim to be audiophiles, all in search of the truth about products. And yet, even though I asked nicely, you all just want to argue.

NPDang, please respond with how the legatia L3's were tested, the errors encountered recently, and then, if it'd be your desire, please lock this thread. This is out of control.

Scott


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## tdgesq (Apr 16, 2006)

Scott, it's a forum for members of DIY Mobile Audio. You don't get to decide who posts and who doesn't. Nor do you get to throw out with impunity accusations that a review on a relatively unknown site cost your business thousand of dollars. In addition, some who use your product decided to tell everybody else here that their opinion was less than worthwhile unless scrutinized by some professional car audio judge. Just one of many ridiculous statements made. The members here have a right to respond to those.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Here is the thing about this thread. Only people who has heard or used the product should stated their opinion, and as i have been reading the 20 pages not many have used the drive in question. So for the people who has no first hand use with the driver you should keep your comments as questions.

Npdang is a good man and is respected by many (as I do respect the man), but he is not the audio God, nor is Scott. But if you guys think a bad or less then great review will not cost a company sales you are you are fooling yourself. Even more so a small company just starting up. It is clear that a error or two was stated in the test or as a standup guy Npdang correct them. Test data is great, but in no way is it the final say in how a driver will sound. But believe it,it is a good starting point to know what to look for.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2006)

> Perhaps I wasn't clear? Perhaps I was too vague in my wording, and the meaning was lost somehow? I wanted to hear from ONE person, npdang, about how the testing was performed, and what the real results are.


Yet you choose to do this on an internet forum for all the world to see, rather than pick up a telephone and call to speak to the man directly, with no "interference"?
You want no one else to ask questions - but everyone to see the one answer you are hoping for?
Your product should stand on its own merit if it is as good as the price implies.
Not rely on NPDang tests and review.
I find Technobugs review just as plausible as Bigtubes. _More_ plausible in fact.

Now care to explain what relevance the transfer function of the "test" vehicle might have, for those of us who are not teenagers?

cheers,

AJ


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Here-I-Come said:


> Here is the thing about this thread. Only people who has heard or used the product should stated their opinion, and as i have been reading the 20 pages not many have used the drive in question. So for the people who has no first hand use with the driver you should keep your comments as questions.
> 
> Npdang is a good man and is respected by many (as I do respect the man), but he is not the audio God, nor is Scott. But if you guys think a bad or less then great review will not cost a company sales you are you are fooling yourself. Even more so a small company just starting up. It is clear that a error or two was stated in the test or as a standup guy Npdang correct them. Test data is great, but in no way is it the final say in how a driver will sound. But believe it,it is a good starting point to know what to look for.


It's really not that simple. The comments were posted on a public forum for the public to read. As someone stated earlier in this thread, if they disagree with Dang's testing, in whatever fashion that maybe, that manufacturer or person should perform the test as he or she see's fit and post their results. From there we all can come to an understanding about any errors in testing or in the speakers.

It's comical to me that he would be blame Dang for losing thousands of dollars in sales when Dang is not the first nor the only person to say they didn't like the legatia. Guess what? That's a part of business. Everyone's not going to like your product. What would happen if a manufacturer got to yankin' chains over at HTGuide.com or DIYaudio.com in this manner? That manufacturer would have his hide tanned. Coming from the internet forum day's of Mover and Manville Smith and later Dan Wiggins over on SD, tact rules the day. PERIOD. Mover would post his b.s. and the other's would counter with empirical evidence. I've not seen tact presented by any party representing Hybrid Audio. PERIOD.

As far as first hand usage is concerned, the reason the forum exists is for users to share their experiences with different drivers. Not many of us could buy each and every driver discussed on this forum for his/her own personal testing.

What am I certain of is that after this fiasco, they'll be even fewer people with first hand experience with this driver. There's no way Hybrid could convince me they're concerned about losing thousands of dollars when they act in this manner.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Thank you all for your courteous and thoughtful response to my last message: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48003&postcount=174
> 
> Perhaps I wasn't clear? Perhaps I was too vague in my wording, and the meaning was lost somehow? I wanted to hear from ONE person, npdang, about how the testing was performed, and what the real results are. The rest of you just want to argue. You all claim to be audiophiles, all in search of the truth about products. And yet, even though I asked nicely, you all just want to argue.


Scott, this is a message board. Nobody's hijacking your personal communications.

To be perfectly frank, I entered this conversation not knowing much about you. I'll be leaving less than impressed.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Here-I-Come said:


> But if you guys think a bad or less then great review will not cost a company sales you are you are fooling yourself.


'Tis the nature of discussing product. I've seen plenty of folks in here steer someone clear of a certain speaker (even if it's a good one) for one that better suits their needs. I guess the person giving the advice cost the company money in doing so, eh? So what? Nobody should be allowed to offer any advice or suggestions having to do with product ever again?

You all need to stop and look around, and then realize that what you're posting on is called a "message board."


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Mark:

I am very sorry you'll be leaving "less than impressed." I have read and re-read my posts on this topic:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47517&postcount=92

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47519&postcount=94

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47526&postcount=96

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47532&postcount=98

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47534&postcount=99

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47653&postcount=121

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47705&postcount=126

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47735&postcount=134

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47974&postcount=160

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48003&postcount=174

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48188&postcount=195


...and find nothing to be out of line, dafamatory, ill-conceived, or incongruous with my approach with founding Hybrid Audio. Eleven posts up above, and eleven too many. Like I said before: guilty until proven innocent; no one is ever found innocent in forum life. Futhermore, I am assured that the six or eight participants in this thread can be convinced of nothing other than their own point of view, without any desire AT ALL to learn the real results for the Legatia L3; you'd rather all stick with your witch hunt. Well then carry on. This is my last post in this topic.

Scott


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Mark:
> 
> I am very sorry you'll be leaving "less than impressed." I have read and re-read my posts on this topic:
> 
> ...


I hope you mean it this time.


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## OgreDave (Jul 13, 2005)

lol .. Scott .. telling everyone to shut up on a forum was quite condescending .. maybe you're used to it or something.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Scott Buwalda said:


> Mark:
> 
> I am very sorry you'll be leaving "less than impressed." I have read and re-read my posts on this topic:
> 
> ...and find nothing to be out of line, dafamatory, ill-conceived, or incongruous with my approach with founding Hybrid Audio.


Scott, I certainly don't believe that I accused you of being out of line, defamotory, or providing anything ill-conceived or incongruous with your founding. What I do find interesting, though, is that you've avoided answering the few serious questions in this thread (for instance, AJ's questions, while perhaps not formulated in the most diplomatic manner, were central to the underlying question), all the while chastizing the rest of us for not complying with your request to stop posting on any of the topics brought up in this thread.

I'm sure you're a busy guy, but from what I understand you're no stranger to forums.



> Eleven posts up above, and eleven too many. Like I said before: guilty until proven innocent; no one is ever found innocent in forum life. Futhermore, I am assured that the six or eight participants in this thread can be convinced of nothing other than their own point of view, without any desire AT ALL to learn the real results for the Legatia L3; you'd rather all stick with your witch hunt. Well then carry on. This is my last post in this topic.


It's too bad you perceive it as a witch hunt, especially since someone on your side happened to be the one who started the thread. I really don't see anything in this thread that hints at a "witch hunt", and unlike the Legatia fanatics that have decided to post in here, I'll refrain from attempting to assign motives to you that could be considered...um...less than complimentary for trying to call it one. I'm also assuming that the "you" part of your post wasn't actually referring to me, since there wasn't a single instance in this thread where I made any comment about the driver.


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

The way i see it, this is same kind of attitude that i see from Adire; while some may not agree with me, this is the impression that i get.

I may not have a use for the L3 right now, but if i ever would need a driver like this i would never use the L3, not even if it was given to me for free. Same thing with Adire products.

It's all because of the attitude.

Leo


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

I thought I had made my last post on this topic but I feel the need to make one more. 

This is a public forum and because of the reputation of npdang hundreds of audio enthusiasts come here to get advice on a number of car audio issues, but primarily they do so to get advice on selecting equipment for their vehicles. With so many complex issues associated with building a quality system and so many manufacturers claiming that their equipment is the best for whatever there is a need for a forum like this to provide open. honest, objective, and impartial testing data and reviews so the potential buyer can make an intelligent and informed choice.

I would say that in the vast majority of instances the advice found here is dead on and of great benefit. Just as with any profession there is the possibility that occasional mistakes can be made. The problem here is that npdang made an honest mistake and as a result the word spread around the various forums that the Legatia was a bad product. I know that I personally have seen numerous topics regarding the L3 that would link or reference the review on this forum. As a result HAT suffered a substantial loss of potential customers. Like it or not...that is a fact.

Npdang has openly stated in this topic that there was a mistake made in the data that could cause the information posted in the review to be interpreted that there were problems with this driver that may not exist had the data been correct. My only association with Scott is as a member of Team Hybrids. I do not represent HAT in any other manner whatsoever. I do know that Scott has invested a great deal of his own personal resources into a building a company that would have a reputation in the industry for building audiophile components that were not only unique to the industry but also affordable to the masses. You can't tell me that people who buy SEAS Lotus, Morel Elates, Scan Speak Revelators,.......etc would think that $249.00 is a high price to pay for a pair of quality mid-range drivers that have the ability to play such a wide frequency spectrum and be so flexible when it comes to manners in which the driver can be utilized.

I have tried to look at this as objectively and fairly as I can and I fail to see why there should be such a problem for Scott to come here and request an explanation for the error that was made and to make an attempt to restore some credibility to his name that was tarnished. Some parts of this topic got out of hand, tempers flared, and a number of us (myself included) said things that were uncalled for and only served to further ill feelings.

I understand that this forum is perceived as a place were fellow audiophiles can come and discuss issues, post reviews about products they have used or heard, and get technical data to use in considering other products. In reality it has become such a fixture in the car audio industry that it exerts an enormous amount of influence on the buying public. With that comes a corresponding degree of responsibility and accountability to openly correct any testing errors that may occur to be fair with the manufacturer who developed and marketed that product.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Here's my suggestion – assuming our gracious host is interested. Hybrid Audio sends two sets of the drivers in question for testing: 1 BNIB, the other broken in by HA according to HA’s specs.

Two birds with one stone. Fresh tests to get past the error questions and a chance to see how the measurements change after break in.

It would be even more interesting if HA ran their preferred tests on their driver, the Trius 3 and maybe the Dayton RS52 for fun. We could learn a lot.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Test setup:

Praxis with high spl mic calibrated by Kim Girardin. Amp is a Crown amp, I forget the model running on a Dell e1705 core duo 2 laptop Windows xp sp2. Soundcard is an M-audio transit USB.

Distortion was measured nearfield with a 3 tone burst, similar to what Linkwitz publishes on his website.

Praxis references Spl to 1v, not 1w. This would cause spl levels to be reported as -6db less than the actual spl. I'm not 100% sure that this is the case without seeing evidence otherwise, but I'm willing to admit that it's very likely given comments by Puggie that the distortion levels he recorded were -20db. 6db is about double the excursion which definitely accounts for the higher levels recorded, especially with smaller drivers at low frequencies. In any case this doesn't affect comparative results with the Trius. Frequency response is a take it for what it's worth type of deal. I've clearly prefaced the limitations of measuring FR without a baffle.

I think it's also been discussed that "warm" and robust sounding drivers tend to have higher non-linear distortion. There's nothing wrong with that, nor do I mean to imply otherwise. Whatever the numbers are, I doubt anyone it affects the opinion of anyone whose listened to the driver. 

As far as moderation I'm a big free speech type of guy. I don't believe in moderation unless there's something illegal, spam, or the thread consists of nothing but blatant insults being traded back and forth.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Digital... take note that every other spec tested was on par. T/S parameters, xmax, etc. Also note that regardless of what the actual drive level was, the driver performed markedly worse than the Trius in non-linear distortion. Also, what kind of distortion numbers CAN we expect from a 3" driver with ~2-3mm of xmax? These are facts that cannot be ignored. Scott has also yet to post any non-linear distortion tests of his own.

A simple e-mail saying hey interesting review, can you check those numbers again for me because this is what we got take a look.... could have avoided alot of drama. For example the BL curve didn't look too hot on the Extremis, but Dan W. was kind enough to shoot me a non-accusatory e-mail and discuss potential problems. Same with the linear distortion results from the Peerless exclusive 4". A simple look at what we have here, and that was the end of story.


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## dingaling (Apr 14, 2005)

btw, can anyone explain to me where the rear venting chamber is?

i don't see any vents in the back, so am I correct to assume that the chrome magnet cover acts as a chamber some how?


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## Sephiroth619 (Jun 24, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> I'm definately soured on Hybrid Audio products after this post.



Indeed. Same feelings towards Adire.


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## johny_gudhel (Jul 6, 2006)

http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showthread.php?threadid=130805&pagenumber=3

Another person listened to the speaker


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## Weightless (May 5, 2005)

I really have nothing to add to this thread...I just wanted to be #214...


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## honfatboy (Jul 4, 2005)

johny_gudhel said:


> http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showthread.php?threadid=130805&pagenumber=3


Looks like people have been working overtime to extinguish the bad pub on these...that last post was in May. I don't care what anbody says, $250 for a pair of paper cone 3" drivers is a heck of a lot of money. Isn't that close to some ATC domes?

Who cares what somebody writes on review boards? Zaph writes bad reviews of speakers and nobody wants him to stop his reviews, and I would bet he is more influential that Dang.

Welcome to big time PR. This costs a happens all of the time--bad reviews cost companies, restaurants, professors, and movie studios money. Talk to General Motors about Dan Neil of the LA Times and see what they say. That did cost them some money. But if that kills your company, the product wasn't that great to begin with.

Fight fire with fire. Truth works. Post your own test results.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

honfatboy said:


> I don't care what anbody says, $250 for a pair of paper cone 3" drivers is a heck of a lot of money. Isn't that close to some ATC domes?


Nope a pair of Atc domes will set you back over $900  


SQ_Baru said:


> I really have nothing to add to this thread...I just wanted to be #214...


Spammer..................+1


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## NaamanF (Jan 18, 2006)

honfatboy said:


> I don't care what anbody says, $250 for a pair of paper cone 3" drivers is a heck of a lot of money.


I like my $440 pair of paper Scan-Speaks.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

DigitalBoomer said:


> I would say that in the vast majority of instances the advice found here is dead on and of great benefit. Just as with any profession there is the possibility that occasional mistakes can be made. The problem here is that npdang made an honest mistake and as a result the word spread around the various forums that the Legatia was a bad product.


No, that's not what happened. As much as you people would like to blame npdang for what I'm assuming are poor sales (?), you have no basis for doing so. Whether the information was perfectly reported or not, it's STUPID to come away with the conclusion that the Legatia is a "bad driver" based on that evidence. Just plain stupid. Don't blame npdang for other people's stupidity.




> Npdang has openly stated in this topic that there was a mistake made in the data that could cause the information posted in the review to be interpreted that there were problems with this driver that may not exist had the data been correct.


"May" being the operative word there.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

I'm not a dumb (or stupid) guy, but the review I read made me think twice about the driver, no different than the review of the Phass component speakers I read a few years back where they started distorting at a very low level. I also saw other people link to the review (I lurk on quite a few forums).

So we disagree on how much business it might have cost HAT, I would be willing to bet the review sure didn't increase his business.

Juan




MarkZ said:


> No, that's not what happened. As much as you people would like to blame npdang for what I'm assuming are poor sales (?), you have no basis for doing so. Whether the information was perfectly reported or not, it's STUPID to come away with the conclusion that the Legatia is a "bad driver" based on that evidence. Just plain stupid. Don't blame npdang for other people's stupidity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## OgreDave (Jul 13, 2005)

Juan,

All they had to do was discredit it by posting their own data. It's their choice not to. If Scott is worried about his 'bias' making their data unacceptable to the public, then send it to Zaph or whoever, you name it. Instead, we get this drama.


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## honfatboy (Jul 4, 2005)

OldOneEye said:


> So we disagree on how much business it might have cost HAT, I would be willing to bet the review sure didn't increase his business.
> Juan


Reviews don't exist to increase business. They exist to inform. Even if the review wasn't favorable (I definitely agree with Mark on this point that it wasn't unfavorable), it did not intend to disuade people from buying the product. There have been worse reviews written about other products (check Zaph's reviews of those ribbon tweets...ouch), and those companies don't mess around with forum tantrums and diatribes.

Come on Scott, please be above this. You're losing the PR battle with Dang. Just let it go, publish your own test data and keep winning in competitions. Time will prove you right or wrong better than any forum message. Obviously, you're a smart guy and can build a killer car.


And I doubt the $440/pr Scan-Speaks are 3-inchers; even if they are, I still say $250/pair is a lot of money.


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## mulletboy2 (Aug 17, 2006)

As Scott said several pages back, the drivers are currently getting measured by another party, and results will be posted. People calling for this will have to wait unfortunately, just like Scott does. Implying that there's some reason for not publishing this data *right now* is not only wrong, but as wrong as accusing npdang of impropriety - you are making assumptions and accusations based on something you couldn't possibly know. Scott wants results that can be accused of nothing, and that means waiting on third parties to run tests for him.

Anyone aside from Scott who thinks that they can reliably assess how much money Hybrid Audio has or hasn't lost through this review - well, I'd be very interested to know how you've done so? What information have you based your assessments on, and how is your own information any more accurate than Scott's?


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## OgreDave (Jul 13, 2005)

How can Scott himself judge how much money he has 'lost'? Someone calling and asking about the review wasn't necessarily going to be a purchaser in the first place .. that's a big assumption.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

honfatboy said:


> and those companies don't mess around with forum tantrums and diatribes.
> 
> Come on Scott, please be above this. You're losing the PR battle with Dang. Just let it go, publish your own test data and keep winning in competitions. Time will prove you right or wrong better than any forum message. Obviously, you're a smart guy and can build a killer car.


I wish everybody would stop twisting words and trying to make this into something it's not. Nobody is having a forum tantrum and there is no PR battle going on. This thing is getting blown way out of proportion. There was a problem with some of the data posted in this forum on a product and the mfg. of that product is requesting an explanation. This is not Scott Buwalda vs npdang, or HAT vs DIYMA. Quit trying to read into words and make innunedos about things that aren't really there. I cetainly didn't intend for this to happen. If I could delete the entire topic I'd pull the plug if I could.

I'm glad to see that mulletboy has stated that there will be independent tests forth coming about the Legatia (along with the testing methodology) that will demonstrate why Scott has concerns. You can't just throw something together in a few days that is accurate and scientific. Scott was asking for the testing parameters so he can have the tester duplicate those conditions to see if the results are the same. 

Why don't we all just calm down, go back to our respective corners, and wait until other tests come out. Until then this is really much ado about nothing.


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## NaamanF (Jan 18, 2006)

honfatboy said:


> And I doubt the $440/pr Scan-Speaks are 3-inchers; even if they are, I still say $250/pair is a lot of money.


They are 4". But they are paper.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

I think you miss my point. Someone said "hey, the review isn't so bad and you have to be stupid to think otherwise". This is a very technical forum, moderated by and posting test reports and reviews by a guy who has quite a bit of technical knowledge and test equipment. It has elevated the discourse and knowledge of its members and has some pretty sharp guys, but at the end of the day people link for other forums saying "hey,look at this!" and take one spec out of dozens to imply the thing wasn't any good. 

So regardless of who is involved, and how they conduct themselves (and I guess by definition their business) I took exception to reading I was "stupid" because I read the review and came to the conclusion that the driver wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

Juan





OgreDave said:


> Juan,
> 
> All they had to do was discredit it by posting their own data. It's their choice not to. If Scott is worried about his 'bias' making their data unacceptable to the public, then send it to Zaph or whoever, you name it. Instead, we get this drama.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

OldOneEye said:


> I think you miss my point. Someone said "hey, the review isn't so bad and you have to be stupid to think otherwise".


Um...no, I didn't say the review isn't so bad. I didn't read the review and I don't care about it. What I said that you'd be stupid to refrain from purchasing the speakers simply because of the measurement data, or to go to other forums and state that they're bad speakers simply because of npdang's review. I'm sorry, but that's simply not the correct way to purchase speakers.



> This is a very technical forum, moderated by and posting test reports and reviews by a guy who has quite a bit of technical knowledge and test equipment. It has elevated the discourse and knowledge of its members and has some pretty sharp guys, but at the end of the day people link for other forums saying "hey,look at this!" and take one spec out of dozens to imply the thing wasn't any good.


Exactly my point. That is stupidity.



> So regardless of who is involved, and how they conduct themselves (and I guess by definition their business) I took exception to reading I was "stupid" because I read the review and came to the conclusion that the driver wasn't all it was cracked up to be.


A review, or measurement data? I think you're confusing the two.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

Hm... Lets look at these Specs for amp X:

20 db signal to noise ratio
THD + Noise (1 Watt) 5%

Damn I must be stupid not to rule it out I guess from my list of amplifiers. Measurements alone tell you lots (and I know I'm using amplifiers, but same thing applies)

In the absense of any other test reports or user reviews, how else do you make a decision on product outside of buying it and using it? There weren't too many drivers in the field when the review was posted.

I'm not saying you should pick all product on measurements alone (because we would all be wearing digital casio watches if all we cared about was measuring well) but in my book if product measures poorly, it probably isn't going to sound good either. 

Sure, a good testimonial saying it sounds good is another story and it would definately get much more weighting when it comes time to pick, but when you only have 1 thing to look at, that is it.

Yes, it is stupid to post a link to a review if you don't understand what it means, and I have not. I did find the review of the review in question by someone linking to it on Elite. People in that post did draw that conclusion.

Juan



MarkZ said:


> Um...no, I didn't say the review isn't so bad. I didn't read the review and I don't care about it. What I said that you'd be stupid to refrain from purchasing the speakers simply because of the measurement data, or to go to other forums and state that they're bad speakers simply because of npdang's review. I'm sorry, but that's simply not the correct way to purchase speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

After looking through the Leg3 manual again, the recommended break-in period is 25hrs of pink noise at 80-82db, less than 1w of power. I don't see any reason why this couldn't be achieved in a much shorter period of time using more aggressive techniques.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2006)

I wonder how much break in time DST recommended for these  
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=9324966.6325&pid=1400










cheers,

AJ


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

OldOneEye said:


> Hm... Lets look at these Specs for amp X:
> 
> 20 db signal to noise ratio
> THD + Noise (1 Watt) 5%
> ...


And which amp is that? You can't answer that one because you made up and amplifier that would cause the owners of the company to vomit if it came off the assembly line. The point is that we're talking about a single parameter that hardly describes the performance of the speaker. That's why it's not wise to try to predict the speaker's behavior in that manner. But, more to the point, it's stupid to conclude that a speaker is bad (which is apparently what people were posting on other boards) by virtue of that spec alone.




> In the absense of any other test reports or user reviews, how else do you make a decision on product outside of buying it and using it? There weren't too many drivers in the field when the review was posted.


You don't. No one should comment on what a speaker sounds like when they haven't actually heard it.



> I'm not saying you should pick all product on measurements alone (because we would all be wearing digital casio watches if all we cared about was measuring well) but in my book if product measures poorly, it probably isn't going to sound good either.


Define poorly. Relatively high harmonic distortion?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

AJinFLA said:


> I wonder how much break in time DST recommended for these
> http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=9324966.6325&pid=1400
> 
> 
> ...


I put a ball in mine and stuck it under the mattress.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Apologies for re-opening a thread that died a natural death while I was elsewhere, but there are some things that I think are important to say even though I'm to be honest not that interested in the Legatia. This thread has amassed far more than its fair share of silliness.



Andy Jones said:


> I will buy that driver after finals---I don't want to mess with the 17-18's out of 20 and the 8-9's out of 10 (IASCA and MECA respecitively) that I am getting with the L3's.


Wait a minute: you compete successfully, which means at the very least that you've bought into the spiel of the car-fi industry. Yet you claim that our gracious host - who is certainly not part of the mainstream car-fi industry, though he's involved as all of us are in car audio to some degree - is biased because he dares to show actual data that's far beyond the mental ability of most of the car-fi industry (which consists of lots of intrepid marketers and little to no actual innovation) to interpret or understand? A little less carnage, perhaps, but in principle that's fairly close to the popular definition of 
"chutzpah."



Andy Jones said:


> I don't listen to test tones. I listen to music. Judges in competition listen to music. If the "negative" aspects of a speaker are not heard in music--does it matter if it is there? I don't think so.


First, most car-fi competition judges I've met do not have exceptional hearing, to go by the cars that win competitions. Second, perhaps it is quite audible in music, but the car-fi competition scene can't hear it. After all, most equipment sold by car-fi vendors is pretty abysmal, and that's what people in the car-fi scene hear most of the time. (Don't you have to pretty much use the mediocre-at-best gear offered by the car-fi vendors whose contributions allow competitions to take place in the first place? With alarmingly few exceptions - JBL WGTi subs, for instance - mainstream car-fi pretty much tops out at stuff that was maybe near the top of the game a quarter century ago, such as the antequated dross offered by Dynaudio and Focal. Seriously, how many American competitors use remotely modern equipment, much as midranges with Faraday rings in their motors?) One gets used to the sound of mediocrity, because that's the overarching majority of gear to which one is exposed. For whaever reason, it appears nobody in the HAT camp has done the obvious and interesting comparison: the L3 next to a lower-distortion driver (Aura NS3, Vifa TG9) driver A/B in a controlled nearfield environment listening to music. When the Legatia first came up in the Carsound forum, I made a comment about the NS3, and SB was ignorant that it even existed! Sorry, but I'm not going to bow down to Scott Buwalda as if he were Norman Borlaug or something just because he and a couple people associated with him claim that they can't hear the distortion caused by his (objectively-speaking) unexceptional but pricey midrange.

But regardless, let's agree to stipulate two things. First, that the distortion present in the L3's as measured by our gracious host and later corrected is an accurate representation of the driver's intrinsic performance. Second, that such distortion may be "inaudible" or even "euphonic" when listening to these drivers in a system. After all, I use drivers in my own system with a high level of even-order distortion in my car, because their sound is appropriate to the gestalt of its interior. Of course, they were $20 or $25 a piece and not $125...

Also, I'm sorry but all of this stuff that Scott's spewing about listening to the driver "in car" is really just the biggest load of bull. SB clearly wrote "in *a* car" (emphasis mine) and not "in a variety of different cars," so assuming he has a solid grasp of the English language and a reasonable degree of personal integrity one may surmise that he may be taken at his word. If not, he is free of course to point out which one of my two above assumptions is wrong.

Believe it or not, a car is not some mystical place wherein the laws of physics are suspended; it's just a small, short room with lots of glass. Moreover, the whole idea of tuning "for a car" is doubly idiotic because *every car is different!* Every car has different amounts of glass area, different front/rear windshield angles, different headliner materials, different seat foam densities, etc. So beyond basic good sense principles, just as not mounting speakers playing short wavelength frequences at one's ankles, what's valid for a 240SX probably means little to nothing for an A8, and certainly means absolutely nothing for a Miata. (I suppose there are also trucks and SUVs to consider, but in the interest of civility let's assume those thuggish monstrosities don't exist.) 

Have I heard the Legatia 3? As I mentioned in the first graf of this post I have not, and likely won't. I view it as a severely overpriced driver that is average-performing at best. That's not a subjective interpretation, mind, but an objective one based on the data. Nor am I that curious to hear it. Just as I'm not interested in "auditioning" wires or amps. It's too big for my car, and I already have two home systems filled with 8" and 12" Tannoy dual concentrics, so anything smaller and wimpier than a 12-15" Tannoy Dual Concentric (or maybe a BMS/B&C/Radian/etc. coax of similar size) is pretty much besides the point for me for home use. Even if I did have I use for it, I see no justification for the L3's markedly higher price vis a vis the Aura NS3 and especially Vifa TG9. Indeed, when I made that point years ago at carsound SB himself threw a little hissy fit on his own forum in response that someone would dare compare his new little thing to something already on the market. (I believe his forum is dead, or at least moved from the link I had bookmarked.) Interestingly, that thread revealed that SB hadn't even bothered to do the market research to realize that there were other high-quality 3" widebanders already out there, despite the fact that they are available from Madisound and not hidden somewhere. I suspect that you, too, had not auditioned the NS3, just has you had not auditioned the Vifa TG9.

Lastly, to set the the original poster and Andy Jones straight: neither Mr. Dang nor Mr. Buwalda is a "manufacturer." Our gracious host designs drivers/modifies OEM's stock drivers and has them made to his specification. It is common knowledge that Mr. Buwalda had his Legatia designed by Adire - the brains behind which, interestingly enough, seem to realize that break-in is bunk despite marketing claims made by its products' marketers seemingly designed to cover the case of someone spending $125 per 3" midrange and being disappointed upon first listen... - and built by whomever builds them. Do you trust the designer (and builder?) or the marketer, even if the marketer has a commanding reputation in his field? To give you a roughly analogous example, a few years ago I had a move to Europe impending. Prior to that move I realized that I should to start dressing like a man instead of an undergrad. So I went to New York and commissioned a suit from Alan Flusser, who at the time was working through Saks. (You may be familiar Mr. Flusser through his books "Style and the Man," "Dressing the Man," or "Clothes and the Man," or perhaps the suits he made for Michael Douglas to wear in Wall Street.) In the course of the sale, Mr. Flusser told me that the only machine-sewn stitches in any of his jackets were the long, straight ones. He specifically mentioned the virtues of hand-sewn canvas interlinings over machine-stitched ones. Fast forward to three months ago. I happened to find a Flusser jacket from his old Saks Custom Shop - now I believe he has his own atelier, in addition to having sold his name for use by some mass marketer's indifferent line - at a thrift store. It wasn't my size, and I couldn't flip it on eBay because it had a few holes. But it was only $6 as the proprietors had no idea what it was and no eye for quality, so I bought it take it apart and see how a great suit is made. So on my porch - to avoid any possible moth contamination in my home, even though the jacket had been drycleaned - I took it apart. Looking at the canvas, I became clear as could be to someone who can barely sew a button on properly could be that the canvas looked as if it had been stitched by a machine. But given my lack of expertise I wasn's sure, so I excised the Flusser tag gave it to my favorite local-ish tailor, Mesut Dogan. I asked his opinion of the canvas and other aspects of the jacket's construction without revealing my amateur impression. His remark, "they've got a special machine to stitch the canvas in." He also found other instances of machine stitching, beyond just the straight seams, though to be fair he also found considerable handwork. Now, though my tastes have veered more to the Neapolitan, do I still love my Flusser suit, if for no reason than wanting to wear it keeps me at the same weight I was when I was 21. Even with a machine-sewn canvas it might be worth the $4k I paid for it considering that it was designed expressly to fit my body by an acknowledged master of the sartorial arts, and it looks like it. But he didn't construct it himself. After I picked the fabric, Mr. Flusser did the measuring and oversaw what ended up being four fittings. But the actual construction was handled by someone named Martin Greenburg or something like that. (Flusser was very open about that relationship.) Was Mr. Flusser willfully lying to me? I don't know, and Mesut told me that the differences between a well handsewn canvas and a good machine-sewn one only show in the finished garment with age as the handsewn ones mold more naturally to the wearer's body. (His own bespoke clothing uses machine-sewn canvases, by his own admission.) But I also won't be patronizing Flusser's new shop, either. And therein lies the lesson: marketers who tell tall tales will often be burned by them.

PS: All of you who are having problems posting here...maybe that's just our gracious host's subtle hint that you should use a well-designed computer and post using Safari. 

PPS: Please, everybody, if you get nothing else out of this thread, learn one thing: *"data" is a plural noun.* The data "is" nothing, except a case of subject-verb disagreement. The data "are."


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## tdgesq (Apr 16, 2006)

"Strictly speaking, data is the plural of datum, and should be used with a plural verb (like facts). However, there has been a growing tendency to use it as an equivalent to the uncountable noun information, followed by a singular verb. This is now regarded as generally acceptable in American use, and in the context of information technology. The traditional usage is still preferable, at least in Britain, but it may soon become a lost cause." http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutgrammar/data?view=uk


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

tdgesq said:


> "Strictly speaking, data is the plural of datum, and should be used with a plural verb (like facts). However, there has been a growing tendency to use it as an equivalent to the uncountable noun information, followed by a singular verb. This is now regarded as generally acceptable in American use, and in the context of information technology. The traditional usage is still preferable, at least in Britain, but it may soon become a lost cause." http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutgrammar/data?view=uk


There is a growing tendency of people to be ****ing idiots, too, but that's no reason to join them. 

Also, in both America and the UK, all serious publications of both scholarly and general interest persist in using the proper formulation rather than the idiot one.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> Also, in both America and the UK, all serious publications of both scholarly and general interest persist in using the proper formulation rather than the idiot one.


That's not quite true.


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

ds-21,
IMHO, the thread died for a reason. The parties involved are probably discussing in private or they're just simply over it. No offense, but there's no need for grammar lessons here. 

On a side note, I do enjoy reading what you have to say and your expertise on certain topics. 
Cheers,

Kev


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Cliff notes?


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

Hi, DS-21...

I can't say that I find the Norman Borlaug reference particularly apt (actually, any sort of relevance was completely lost on me) when discussing Scott B. and the topic at hand... perhaps a more suitable reference would have been to a pioneer or exceptionally accomplished individual in the electronics / speaker development field...? 

Just my opinion... that, and about six bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks... 

And, no, I am not inferring that you patronize that establishment...  

^^ No offense intended, just some good-natured humor...


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

kevin k. said:


> Just my opinion... that, and about six bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks...
> 
> And, no, I am not inferring that you patronize that establishment...


Of course not. Once while enjoying a guffaw at a particularly insightful exchange between Bill Maher and Al Franken, he spit a grande caramel macchiato all over his 21” cinema wide Apple monitor, his Kiton 7-fold tie, and his Crockett and Jones oxfords. After failing to receive the proper remuneration through his lawyers on retainer at Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe, he swore off Starbucks, and now drinks only Honduran coffee that is flown in weekly on his BBJ, and fixed by his barista staff.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Thoraudio said:
 

> Of course not. Once while enjoying a guffaw at a particularly insightful exchange between Bill Maher and Al Franken, he spit a grande caramel macchiato all over his 21” cinema wide Apple monitor, his Kiton 7-fold tie, and his Crockett and Jones oxfords. After failing to receive the proper remuneration through his lawyers on retainer at Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe, he swore off Starbucks, and now drinks only Honduran coffee that is flown in weekly on his BBJ, and fixed by his barista staff.


His Honduran coffee is both organic and grown and picked by union workers.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Thoraudio said:


> Of course not. Once while enjoying a guffaw at a particularly insightful exchange between Bill Maher and Al Franken, he spit a grande caramel macchiato all over his 21” cinema wide Apple monitor, his Kiton 7-fold tie, and his Crockett and Jones oxfords....


Seriously, dude, are you spying on me? 

I'm half laughing, and half wondering if someone managed to hack into my iSight. I had to go to Atlanta for business today - not, alas, to meet Bill Maher or Al Franken, though that would've presumably been much more fun - and as I write this message there actually still is a Kiton seven fold around my neck. It's pretty rare that I wear ties these days, being back in grad school, so for you to mention that is a bit odd. Not only that, but also my feet are actually shod in C&J Handgrades made on their 330 last, though they are split-toe derbies and not oxfords. (Oxford=closed vamp; derby=open vamp)

I couldn't even tell you what a grande caramel macchiato is, though. The only word in that phrase that even registers with me is "caramel;" the rest sounds like marketing mumbo-jumbo. Coffee to me begins and ends with the Viennese melange, preferably with beans roasted by Julius Meinl, though since my vacation in Costa Rica last week I've been enjoying some of their coffees, too. Cafe Britt shade grown organic right now, in fact. On ice.


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

the real trick is for me to put you on a watch... there are just so many premium brands out there... 

I'd knock out Rolex as too obvious, Patek as too ostentatious.

Nothing as pedestrian as a Timex (even the Monster I'd discount as not being dressy enough) or Invicta... although I wouldn't count out a Citizen eco-drive...

Tag too sporty? Omega too Bond? 

Paneri is a good indy/popular choice, Lahnge and Sonne nice and dressy... 

argh, too many to chose from. 

Mont Blanc?


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## Rbsarve (Aug 26, 2005)

Grande is big in spanish, and a mocciato is a whole lot of espresso with a skrit of milk in.

And real men wears Breitling on the job and Vacheron Constantin to the party.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Rbsarve said:


> Grande is big in spanish, and a mocciato is a whole lot of espresso with a skrit of milk in.
> 
> And real men wears Breitling on the job and Vacheron Constantin to the party.


How about a Citizen ECO-Drive and a couple of Diesel watches?


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Hmm... IWC.


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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)

Rbsarve said:


> Grande is big in spanish, and a mocciato is a whole lot of espresso with a skrit of milk in.
> 
> And real men wears Breitling on the job and Vacheron Constantin to the party.


I don't know about that. Breitlings are nice, and they sell well, but other than the Bentlys very few other watches are even worth mentioning. Vacherons are beautiful. Why stop there for watches to a party, go with a Parmigiani, or Gerald Genta now those are some rare pieces.
My personal favorites are IWC and Ulysse Nardin. Awesome watches, very reliable, keeps great time, and some of the best customer service on the market.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Thoraudio said:


> the real trick is for me to put you on a watch...


Sorry, but that won't help you much. I'm not a big watch guy. The watches I own are pretty pedestrian, though I'd never wear anything as arriviste as a Rolex or [shudder] Breitling!

For daily wear I generally pick between a cheapo shiny silver Emporio Armani tank that was a gift, a golden Tag Heuer S/el with one normal S/el link on each side followed by a brown leather band, and a minimalist-modernist watch from the Dutch (presumably, as I've only seen them in Amsterdam and in KLM's duty free catalog) firm TimeDesign.

When I'm suited up for something important, I'll wear the S/el, a stainless Jaeger leCoultre Reverso with a brown ostrich strap, or a Jaguar-branded - no idea who makes it, but I love it - automatic chronograph with a BRG face and dark brown calfskin strap designed to emulate an XK's cam covers. Except for the S/el, which I bought at Wempe in Vienna in 2000 or so, I inherited those from my father. When not in use, I keep both of those watches in a shaker and locked up.

To be honest, the only watch that I really want is one of those Bulgari aluminum sports watches with the rubber strap. And that only because I think it would be interesting to match my watch to my favorite glasses (also from the Bulgari Aluminium collection). It is not a $1500+ interesting idea, though, especially when there are people in the world with real needs.

And no C&J's for me today. (Actually, I only own three pairs of C&Js, the Handgrades I was wearing last time I checked here, a pair of shell cordovan Belgraves, and a pair of chocolate brown suede wingtips made by C&J for Kilgour's that look amazing with grey.) Today I'm doing much, much better than that: split toe caramel scotch-grain derbies made by the peerless Slivano Lattanzi for Jil Sander.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

I just check my cell phone for the time.


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## |Tch0rT| (May 7, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> I just check my cell phone for the time.


Same here. I haven't worn a watch in about 10 years.

Ryan


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

I find horology (no Derek, not the study of whores) very interesting, ever since my grandfather gave me his old broken Rolex (unfortunately, none of us recognized the potential value at the time...)

Check out the forums at www.timezone.com for some serious timepieces... 

DS-21, what I found very funny is that Dictionary.com specifically mentions hand-made British shoes in their definition of arriviste...


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

I have heard the Legatia.

And the Legatia is good.


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## Eastcoast (Mar 26, 2005)

I'd like to add my experience to the mix.

Many people do just read the forums, and pass along any information as fact. All of a sudden we have 50 people poo-pooing a driver that they have never seen or heard. We need to start calling more of such people out. People have differing opinions, a driver that I think sounds great others will think is lousy, a driver I think is a waste of time others will cherish. But that my friends is a wonderful thing...when people can disagree on things they have experience with. 

But do yourselves (and everyone else) a favor and try some things out. Formulate your own opinions and become an active part of the intelligence shared on these forums. Try not to pass around information that you don't know is true, or opinions that aren't your own, you are doing everyone dis-service. Case in point the Morel Supremo, I read a lot about that driver, it was the greatest driver, I dreamed about that driver, until one day I owned that driver. Come to find out, its not all its hyped up to be (in my opinion) There are other drivers that are better in many respects...and now I tell people about it. Know why? Because I have used the supremo, extensively. I have used hiquphons, LPG's, Scans, Ribbons and several others. And now I have my own opinion, which come to find out, is very different from a lot of the stuff that I had read on the net that I assumed was close to true. So now when the subject comes up I have more to offer than what I've read, its what I've seen and heard. Take everything you read everywhere with a grain of salt, as you will come to find out, a lot of the stuff you read will be a lot different than what you think, and you will find that a good amount of the info you read will be posted by people who haven't a clue!

Some people love speaker A, some people don't, stay out of either camp until you've heard the driver and have your own input and global warming would end.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Couldn't have said it better myself, i really hate giving my own opinions about drivers, i honestly don't think i have enough experience with forumulating reviews based on a limited listening group. I mean honestly i've only listened to a few top drivers...LPG 26's, WR125's, BG Neo3's, Vifa P17, Seas CA18, DIYMA 2", and the Dayton RS225, and even less on subs....He2, Tempest, and now my DIYMA Ref, that i havn't gotten power to yet. 

But i really couldn't have said it better myself......everyone has a different listening curve (ear sens.), be it because of natural progression over years, or accidental damage listening to music too loud.........were all different, so we'll all have subjectively different impressions.....

I'd really love to hear a L3 though, to compair it in some ways to the sound of my diyma domes.......i really love them right now, just have nothing else of the same type caliber to compair them too.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

The Lazarus of threads.

Eastcoast is right of course. To this day I regret relentlessly bashing the Yugo. Never did drive or own one. 
I'll probably feel the same about the Legatia one day.
How could I have known after 20+ yrs of speakerbuilding what a stamped frame 3" paper cone mid sounds like, without first listening to it? I bet it sounds absolutely nothing like a stamped frame 3" paper cone mid. How could it?

cheers,

AJ


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

AJinFLA said:


> The Lazarus of threads.
> 
> Eastcoast is right of course. To this day I regret relentlessly bashing the Yugo. Never did drive or own one.
> I'll probably feel the same about the Legatia one day.
> ...


I beginning to suspect by the tenor of your posts that your opinions have more to do with your impressions of Hybrid Audio and Scott Buwalda than they do with the actual speaker. Quit beating around the bush and just come out and say it. I finished 2nd this weekend and had the highest SQ score in my class. The IASCA judge who listened to my car made specific comments on the scoresheet about how great sounding the mids and highs were. Many people who were down on the Legatia's heard them this weekend and came away impressed with how they sounded. Did they think they were the greatest speaker in the world? Of course not....but most were impressed to the point that they are considering trying them out. 

You sir sound more like a man who has an agenda against Scott Buwalda than you do a man expressing his honest opinion. Your pointed and sarcastic remarks are calling you out to what kind of peson you truely are....and it's not looking very good.

Cheers, 

Asher


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## Eastcoast (Mar 26, 2005)

AJinFLA said:


> How could I have known after 20+ yrs of speakerbuilding what a stamped frame 3" paper cone mid sounds like, without first listening to it?
> AJ


 I guess you know what ever speaker sounds like then. You don't even have to listen to speakers anymore to know what they sound like. (though I can kind of see your point, I have an idea of what different driver materials sound like) After 20 years you must have listened to all of different materials and "frames" I'll be sure to take your input to heart on drivers you haven't listened to  

Actually, next big driver that comes out I'd like your full detailed review posted here, before you've heard it, and before you can sponge off of anyone else impressions who have heard the driver.    

As a side note, I'm not for or against the legatia, never heard it, nor was I picking on you, but I'll be sure to disregard anything you've said about it. Congratulations on the speaker building mate, now you can retire your ears  

Cheers.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I think there's very valid reasons for disqualifying drivers without having first listened to them. Certainly more valid than how the driver performs in competition, Imho. But in the end, I do believe the final word should always rest with your ears.


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## Eastcoast (Mar 26, 2005)

npdang said:


> I think there's very valid reasons for disqualifying drivers without having first listened to them.


 I agree, I'm not talking about spec'ing a driver to see if you can use it. I'm talking about listening to a driver before you say its not good, doesn't perform well in this area, sounds like this etc. There are too many borrowed opinions. Life is too short to not live it yourself.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Eastcoast said:


> I agree, I'm not talking about spec'ing a driver to see if you can use it. I'm talking about listening to a driver before you say its not good, doesn't perform well in this area, sounds like this etc. There are too many borrowed opinions. Life is too short to not live it yourself.


Then again, once one stops blindly stomping in the dark like an imbecile going from fad to fad - HLCD's, ankle-biters, and now apparently expensive small drivers of mediocre objective performance, which I will concede is a genuine step forward from mistuned waveguides and ankle-biting speakers -and starts treating the hobby with some intellectual rigor by comparing measurements with your preferences and seeing what (if any patterns) develop, it _isn't_ necessary to hear every last new little thing to see if it will suit one's tastes or not.

And ironically, I have _yet_ to see a single Legatia booster post indicating that any of them has taken even the most imbecilic step and done even the most subjective, uncontrolled, no-measurements comparison between it and the lower distortion 3" widebanders from Aura and Vifa/Peerless vline.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

DS-21 said:


> Then again, once one stops blindly stomping in the dark like an imbecile going from fad to fad - HLCD's, ankle-biters, and now apparently expensive small drivers of mediocre objective performance, which I will concede is a genuine step forward from mistuned waveguides and ankle-biting speakers -and starts treating the hobby with some intellectual rigor by comparing measurements with your preferences and seeing what (if any patterns) develop, it _isn't_ necessary to hear every last new little thing to see if it will suit one's tastes or not.
> 
> And ironically, I have _yet_ to see a single Legatia booster post indicating that any of them has taken even the most imbecilic step and done even the most subjective, uncontrolled, no-measurements comparison between it and the lower distortion 3" widebanders from Aura and Vifa/Peerless vline.


Never heard the Aura or Vifa/Peerless V-Line. All I can say about the L3 is that I liked what I heard. I personally don't put too much weight into measurements on paper. You can extrapolate some info from them, absolutely. But I'm more interested in how they actually sound to my ears. 

I can absolutely recommend taking a listen to one of the HAT cars with your own ears - you're local to the area, IIRC, so it wouldn't be too difficult to do. If you don't like 'em, that's cool too.

I'm not even a customer of HAT, just impressed with what they had to offer. They didn't do too bad at Finals.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2006)

> I finished 2nd this weekend and had the highest SQ score in my class. The IASCA judge who listened to my car made specific comments on the scoresheet about how great sounding the mids and highs were


Wow. That's incredible. Congratulations. I missed it on CNN this weekend. Was it on Fox? I wonder what percentage of the earths population is cognizant of this fact? 40, 50%? Even those blissfully unaware would surely be impressed, if they only knew. Keep up the good work.

Were it not for this forum, I would never have heard of Scott Buwalda. Got nothing against a guy trying to make a buck. Or 250 off a pair of stamped frame paper mids. Would really have liked to pick his brains about transfer functions but he thought I worked for the feds or something LOL.



> I guess you know what ever speaker sounds like then. You don't even have to listen to speakers anymore to know what they sound like.


 You guessed wrong.


> though I can kind of see your point, I have an idea of what different driver materials sound like


 You do? You just said you didn't. I have a bit more than an "idea", but I certainly can't tell you _exactly_ what a driver sounds like _without listening to it_ in one of _*my*_ setups. Nor did I ever imply that I did.


> After 20 years you must have listened


I've _built_ for 20yrs. I've listened for a lot longer. But obviously not long enough to know how stunning this particular 3" paper mid sounds like, utterly different than all previous paper mids known to humanity (Fostex, Aura, Vifa, Peerless,etc,etc,etc..be damned), as sayeth a couple kids with more money than sense and some IASCA "experts". Self annointed I imagine.


> I think there's very valid reasons for disqualifying drivers without having first listened to them. Certainly more valid than how the driver performs in competition, Imho. But in the end, I do believe the final word should always rest with your ears.


 My philosophy also. Can't wait to hear these wonders. Anyone have a pair in a 10 mile radius? I sure as heck aint driving too much further even to hear something so rare and special as a 3" paper mid.


> Life is too short to not live it yourself.


 You're right. I'm going to track down that Yugo one day .

cheers,

AJ


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

oh wait... AJ and DS think they have the final say on something? 

I'm shocked... SHOCKED to find that gambling is going on here!


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2006)

> I'm shocked


That's what happens when mentally challenged children play with electricity. Shame on you. Be less careful next time.

cheers,

AJ


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

oooo, and now an ad hominem. excellent choice.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Thoraudio said:


> oh wait... AJ and DS think they have the final say on something?


Do you have any issue with what I wrote on fact, or are you just being bitchy?


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

yeah, I have lots of problems with what you wrote, but...

bitchy? The great DS-21, whose pomposity and inane verbosity has made him famous the world over (well... on at least 3 mobile audio focused forums), resorts to bitchy?

Sadly, I feel a demise for your great cause of freeing America from the vast right wing conspiracy to promote their mideast agenda by advocating kick panel mounted speakers. (between you and me, I hear Haliburton bought Q Logic for their advanced injection molded kick pod technology).


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Thoraudio said:


> yeah, I have lots of problems with what you wrote, but...


Then perhaps you might state them like a civilized human being instead of proving that a male analogue to PMS does indeed exist.


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> Then perhaps you might state them like a civilized human being instead of proving that a male analogue to PMS does indeed exist.


Now there's the logorrhoea from DS we've come to know and love. 

Car audio = compromises. You can't loosen your Kiton, prop up you Crockett & Jones (hand grades), and sit in the sweet spot (vertical and horizontal) between your speakers in their prescribed cabinets firing on a unified plane. Can't be done. Even 100% custom sound vehicles require that the drivers either be below eye level, or offset detrimentaly to the sides. 

So, a compromise must be made. Up until very recently, EQ was cheaper and easier than TA. That meant for optimum sound, you compromised things like tonality and low level detail (which could be corrected somewhat with an EQ), for the things you couldn't correct for, PLD's and time aligned midbass/midrange/tweet hand offs. 

Now, workable TA is available in even $300 headunits, but it's still a compromise. Works only really for 1 seat, some compromise in dynamics etc... 

I've heard AJ use the tired line of 'no audio engineer would tell you to put the speakers at your ankles', well... no audio engineer would have you put the speakers on multiple planes, facing multiple angles at multiple distances either. 

both kick panel mounted speakers and dash mounted speakers have their advantages and disadvantages... the _choice_ is a personal one. 

Well, my Invicta 9223 chronometer tells me I've spent too much time here, so I'm going to get in my 2000 midnight black Pontiac Grand Am GT with bespoke dented fender, and head over to Sonic for a Cherry Limeade (44 oz.).


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

edited...

made a funny... wasn't that funny... 

must be the cherry limeade getting to me.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Thoraudio said:


> Now there's the logorrhoea from DS we've come to know and love.
> 
> Car audio = compromises. You can't loosen your Kiton, prop up you Crockett & Jones (hand grades), and sit in the sweet spot (vertical and horizontal) between your speakers in their prescribed cabinets firing on a unified plane. Can't be done. Even 100% custom sound vehicles require that the drivers either be below eye level, or offset detrimentaly to the sides.


Right, but "below eye level" is a whole different level from "biting your ankles."



Thoraudio said:


> So, a compromise must be made. Up until very recently, EQ was cheaper and easier than TA. That meant for optimum sound, you compromised things like tonality and low level detail (which could be corrected somewhat with an EQ), for the things you couldn't correct for, PLD's and time aligned midbass/midrange/tweet hand offs.


In other words, people castrated their systems to amusicality in order to account for things that are largely irrelevant, like pathlength differences and the beyond stupid idea of covering everything above the modal region with more than one driver, or at least more than multiple concentrically-mounted drivers. There are compromises worth making and then there are surrenders, and what you describe is more properly called an abject, wholesale surrender. If it's not going to sound good, what's the ****ing point?



Thoraudio said:


> I've heard AJ use the tired line of 'no audio engineer would tell you to put the speakers at your ankles', well... no audio engineer would have you put the speakers on multiple planes, facing multiple angles at multiple distances either.


While AJ is of course right, we're in more agreement than not. Even though audio engineers do the things you (and I) decry all the time. It is retarded to put speakers on multiple planes facing multiple angles at multiple distances. Assuming they're playing above the modal region, which in a car goes up to ~250Hz or more depending on the size of the cabin. (You might have noted that I regularly discourage using a tweeter with NS3's, 9BGS's, or other small drivers. In a small room like a car having multiple sources per channel above the modal region usually causes many more problems than it solves.) Below that, not so important, just as coherence won't be an issue - though other things may - with a sub crossed at 60Hz in a 3000 cubic foot room and integrated properly into the system level-wise, no matter where it's placed. That's why small widebanders are such a step forward for mainstream "high end" car audio. *Buwalda has figured that out, and that's why people with car-fi backgrounds and limited-to-nonexistent exposure to objectively superior and much cheaper gear (e.g. Aura NS3, Vifa 9BGS) are so happy with them. People who know better - and one can assume that a place called DIYmobileaudio.com will be rife with that - will yawn at the new overpriced stuff that doesn't do its job as well as the stuff they've already got, and move on.*



Thoraudio said:


> both kick panel mounted speakers and dash mounted speakers have their advantages and disadvantages... the _choice_ is a personal one.


So is a personal choice to wear shoes on one's hands instead of on the feet. But one of them is a silly choice and the other is a reasonable one.

And today I didn't have anything do today except for run some PCR's and gels in the lab. So no tie, Kiton or otherwise. In its stead is an Edun ONE campaign t-shirt, link included so that others can contribute to an eminently worthy cause. (And, admittedly, put a few bucks in the pockets of Bono and Rogan Gregory, too.) No C&J's or even any other Goodyear-welted, leather soled shoe on the feet, either, which is a rarity when it's sunny and I'm not working out. Just an old pair of beaten up Helmut Lang sneakers.


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> Right, but "below eye level" is a whole different level from "biting your ankles."


Not nearly as severe as your making out... If I'm standing, the difference between eye/ear level is ~5 to 5.5'. Sitting in a normal chair cuts that to ~ 3'. 

Now seated a normal mid-sized car, say an Accord or a G6, that difference falls to right around 2'. Vertical resolution in humans is much less than horizontal resolution (because of those radar dishes on the side of your head), so the need to equalize path length differences between l/r is much greater than up/down. 

The real issue with kick panel speakers is interferance... legs, dash components, that exotic dancer on her knees in the passenger floor board, etc... That is a significant issue. Blocking the sound destroy's low level detail... but then again, so does driving down the road. 



> In other words, people *castrated* their systems to *amusicality* in order to account for things that are *largely irrelevant, like pathlength differences* and the beyond stupid idea of covering everything above the modal region with more than one driver, or at least more than multiple concentrically-mounted drivers. There are compromises worth making and then there are surrenders, and what you describe is more properly called an *abject, wholesale surrender. If it's not going to sound good, what's the ****ing point?*


*

Staging and imaging are dictated by PLDs, which you say are largely irrelevant. You have made a conscience choice to compromise one part of your sound for another. That's great. I happen to like wide band drivers mounted up high too.... wanna hug? But there are problems here as well... early reflections off of hard surfaces, side bias, lack of width, etc... How about some that sound good and can take the power necessary to beat 90 db... That's a serious issue as well (unless of course dynamics are something you are willing to compromise on).

I loved my point source drivers too, but to state that they are the only viable option is asinine in its exclusivity. 




While AJ is of course right, we're in more agreement than not. Even though audio engineers do the things you (and I) decry all the time. It is retarded to put speakers on multiple planes facing multiple angles at multiple distances. Assuming they're playing above the modal region, which in a car goes up to ~250Hz or more depending on the size of the cabin. (You might have noted that I regularly discourage using a tweeter with NS3's, 9BGS's, or other small drivers. In a small room like a car having multiple sources per channel above the modal region usually causes many more problems than it solves.)

Click to expand...

As you so eleoquently put it earlier... what's the copulating point? You've made a compromise (officially the eleventeenth billion time I've used that word in this thread). You've eliminated volume (and by extension dynamics at certain volumes), frequency extension, introduced beaming, etc... for the sole myopic purpose of limiting the number of drivers. Are there reasons to do it? Yes... Are there limitations? abso-freakin-lutely. 




Below that, not so important, just as coherence won't be an issue - though other things may - with a sub crossed at 60Hz in a 3000 cubic foot room and integrated properly into the system level-wise, no matter where it's placed. That's why small widebanders are such a step forward for mainstream "high end" car audio. Buwalda has figured that out, and that's why people with car-fi backgrounds and limited-to-nonexistent exposure to objectively superior and much cheaper gear (e.g. Aura NS3, Vifa 9BGS) are so happy with them. People who know better - and one can assume that a place called DIYmobileaudio.com will be rife with that - will yawn at the new overpriced stuff that doesn't do its job as well as the stuff they've already got, and move on.

Click to expand...

Not saying it's not a fine goal. I've heard the Legatia's in *gasp* kicks, and they sounded pretty good, both tonally and imaging. 




So is a personal choice to wear shoes on one's hands instead of on the feet. But one of them is a silly choice and the other is a reasonable one.

Click to expand...

tsk tsk tsk... There you go again, trying to establish your choices as the only right ones... I thought that was the bane of liberalism... Oh wait... I see. By dictating what is right and wrong, you can establish the exact product that everybody needs and either force or guilt them into buying it.... I can hear Jobs now.... "Just one more thing, then new Ispeaker, 2" wide, no bass, no treble, but you really don't need that do you? After all.... it's white!"

you closet Republicans are so sneaky.*


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Thoraudio said:


> Not nearly as severe as your making out... If I'm standing, the difference between eye/ear level is ~5 to 5.5'. Sitting in a normal chair cuts that to ~ 3'.


As you admit later, you are wrong. The difference between "below eye level" (meaning on the dash/A-pillar/tops of doors) and "ankle-biting" is precisely those ankles (and shoes, seats, legs, etc.) in the way. And it's not just "low level detail" that's lopped off in the process, it's _any vestige of the direct sound._



Thoraudio said:


> Staging and imaging are dictated by PLDs, which you say are largely irrelevant.


Which they are, in the context of a vehicle operated on public roads. The only images that matter in such cases are the direct ones (windshield, front windows) and reflected ones (side mirrors/RVM). There are other contexts in which some people view car audio. That's a fine hobby, but about as relevant to enjoying music whilst driving as soccer's offsides rules are to a linebacker inching up to blitz on third and long.



Thoraudio said:


> You have made a conscience choice to compromise one part of your sound for another.


I made a conscious (I could pick on you, but I know what you meant) choice to compromise in my daily driver's system, but not the one you ascribe to me. Rather, I compromised between sound and aesthetics/security; using the stock locations meant it was necessary to use wideband drive units that are smaller than ideal.



Thoraudio said:


> But there are problems here as well... early reflections off of hard surfaces, side bias, lack of width, etc...


All of those are problems or not based on placement and skill of the installer. None of them are intrinsic to the drivers.



Thoraudio said:


> How about some that sound good and can take the power necessary to beat 90 db... That's a serious issue as well (unless of course dynamics are something you are willing to compromise on).


Allow me to redefine the criteria a little bit: 90db per channel at ca. 1m from 200Hz to the top of their range with minimal dynamic compression. NS3, 10BGS for sure based on personal experience. (JBL GTO220 as well, if you bump the LF corner requirement up an octave and change.) TG9/9BGS as well based on our gracious host's review and measurements. So nothing smaller than 3", admittedly, but in that range there are options.

Also, if you can swing a 3-channel front stage - my preference for home listening, and would do it in my car if I drove something with a convenient spot for one - the overall SPL demands from each channel go down. 



Thoraudio said:


> I loved my point source drivers too, but to state that they are the only viable option is asinine in its exclusivity.


For me they are the only viable option. The only speakers I have installed in vehicles I've owned or spent significant time in to cover above the modal region are the following: 
KEF KAR System 160Q (coincident point source)
Seas H1144 (coincident point source)
Aura Whisper (wideband)

Then again, I haven't bought or built a speaker for my home that wasn't an augmented widebander or coincident/Dual Concentric since maybe 2001. And that one was a mistake.

Other approaches are, to be frank, _not good enough for me._

Let's look at the pros and cons of each available option.

1) Augmented widebanders and/or coincident/concentric drivers.
Pros: Coherence because everything above the modal region comes from a single point in space, greater proportion of direct sound to reflected sound (assuming non-asinine placement), .
Cons: Can be ugly when done with sound as the foremost consideration, limited top octave performance (which is a much smaller deal than many make of it, IMO), dynamics if the widebander is >3" with significant xmax.

2) Waveguides.
Pros: Most of the benefits of widebanders + superior dynamic fidelity, assuming low enough cutoff and a constant directivity profile (conical, OS, etc.).
Cons: *Everything* if the horn is not of the constant directivity variety. If it is a CD horn, to get the above benefits the waveguides have to be placed and dimensioned such that they are not practical in any automobile. Moreover, when thusly placed (see John van Ommen's experiments with OS waveguides on his dash) there is still the issue of separation of sources above the modal region, resulting in a loss of coherence.

3) Conventional components
Pros: Easy to fit into most cars stealthily, widest selection of any option, possibly better dynamics than an augmented wideband approach, not as colored as non-CD waveguides, generally (assuming non-asinine tweeter placement) superior top octave extension. 
Cons: Lousy coherence because the distance between the drivers is large relative to their distance from you. Tuning nightmare because the power response of the tweeter at the bottom of its passband is essentially omnidirectional, whereas the midwoofer's is significantly more narrow, though in a car most ribbons/planars improve on regular tweeters somewhat in this regard. (Of course, I find _home_ speakers that are so poorly engineered that they fail to restrict the tweeters' directivity at the bottom of its passband to match that of the midwoofer at the top of its passband to all sound pretty awful overall. And that is, of course, most home box speakers, including at the so-called high end.)

4) Planars. 
Pros: Can sound amazing, especially in the midrange.
Cons: Require, among other things, significant damping of the backwave in order to do so. And need much more surface area than is available in front of the driver for any sort of useful dynamics.



Thoraudio said:


> tsk tsk tsk... There you go again, trying to establish your choices as the only right ones...


Nothing of the sort. I am presenting my choice with the full force of the logic used to reach it for public consumption, and from that others may do whatever the hell they wish. It is not relevant to me.



Thoraudio said:


> II thought that was the bane of liberalism... Oh wait... I see. By dictating what is right and wrong, you can establish the exact product that everybody needs and either force or guilt them into buying it....


Somehow I don't think DIYMA has that kind of power. 

Second, I'm not a liberal. I'm a progressive, a social democrat. A "capitalism with a human face" guy.



Thoraudio said:


> you closet Republicans are so sneaky.


"Smart is better than stupid" is a Republican position? Not if recent history is any guide!


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

DS-21 said:


> As you admit later, you are wrong. The difference between "below eye level" (meaning on the dash/A-pillar/tops of doors) and "ankle-biting" is precisely those ankles (and shoes, seats, legs, etc.) in the way. And it's not just "low level detail" that's lopped off in the process, it's _any vestige of the direct sound._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is there a such thing as "captialism with a human face"?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> Let's look at the pros and cons of each available option.
> 
> 1) Augmented widebanders and/or coincident/concentric drivers.
> Pros: Coherence because everything above the modal region comes from a single point in space, greater proportion of direct sound to reflected sound (assuming non-asinine placement), .
> ...


Interesting list, but one critical (IMO) attribute was missing from each category: output capabilities and power compression. It's my opinion that perhaps the biggest benefit gained (at least for some users) from multi-driver systems is the increase in potential output. Smaller drivers with less metal and lower excursion capabilities will often come up short in some applications.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

MarkZ said:


> Interesting list, but one critical (IMO) attribute was missing from each category: output capabilities and power compression. It's my opinion that perhaps the biggest benefit gained (at least for some users) from multi-driver systems is the increase in potential output. Smaller drivers with less metal and lower excursion capabilities will often come up short in some applications.


Ontop of the fact that you're putting these speakers in a car. Output is a MAJOR factor.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Interesting list, but one critical (IMO) attribute was missing from each category: output capabilities and power compression.


I use "dynamic fidelity" as a shorthand for that. Probably should have said so in the above post.



MarkZ said:


> It's my opinion that perhaps the biggest benefit gained (at least for some users) from multi-driver systems is the increase in potential output. Smaller drivers with less metal and lower excursion capabilities will often come up short in some applications.


Fair point, and one that does apply to systems like mine with a 2" wideband driver asked to do most of the music. If you're talking about the difference between a 7" 2-way and 12" Dual Concentric I agree with you completely. However, I'm not at all convinced that a front stage consisting of, say, a 3" wideband playing right in front of you from over 200-250Hz and augmented by a 7" dedicated midbass in a door or something is going to be at any dynamic fidelity handicap to a system consisting of a 7" midbass (which, due to the need to play higher, may be less well suited to bass) that's sometimes 2x the distance from you that the widebander would be playing from 80-2k Hz and a 1" dome tweeter that's placed properly playing above that.

How much linear xmax does it take for a 3" driver to do 90dB at 200Hz? About 3mm, according to a back-of-the-hand calculation. All of the good 3" widebanders can swing that all day. And 90dB at 200Hz is pretty loud.

Also, space permitting more freedom to go larger on the midbass in an augmented wideband system than there is in a system where the midbass goes up to 2kHz or more, with an attendant dynamic fidelity improvement.


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> As you admit later, you are wrong. The difference between "below eye level" (meaning on the dash/A-pillar/tops of doors) and "ankle-biting" is precisely those ankles (and shoes, seats, legs, etc.) in the way. And it's not just "low level detail" that's lopped off in the process, it's _any vestige of the direct sound._


DS, DS, DS.... mmm mmm mmm.

OK, you've come around that vertical displacement isn't the issue, let's work on the new excuse. 

Simple question is, can you see the speaker location. Most quality kick installs, you can, yes, even the driver side one. Now, somebody who's 5'4" and drives by hugging the steering wheel may have an issue, and your precious clutch would require interferance, but yeah.... I can see it. That means most of the low level info is still there as direct sound. This kinda confuses me though, as you've stated your preference for co-incident drivers mounted low in the door before... which is a worse location for direct sound than kicks... but anyway. Perfect, no, acceptable compromise? it is in mine, and many other's opinions.

The cool thing is, as you are well aware, the necessity for direct sound drops with frequency, and the necessity of PLD minimation decreases with increased frequency. That means that wide-bandwidth mids (like the Legatia, or my preference, the WR-125) mounted low, combined with high crossed tweets mounted high, can be an excellent combination. 

You talk about losing any vestige of direct sound? Overated. I've done many an experiment with 'reflective' speaker placement, specifically under the dash and downfiring. Was there a loss of low level detail? Yep... but not so dramatic as to render it unusable... *MUCH* less dramatic than some of the comb filtering effects you can get from mounting high frequency drivers on the dash... or overly bright speakers that direct fire. 

The hands down best results I've gotten are from some co-ax A/D/S mids mounted almost directly to the firewall, firing foward. Compromises? Seats needed to be laid back too far, so I could get the center console affects out of the way from the passenger side speaker. 



> Which they are, in the context of a vehicle operated on public roads. The only images that matter *TO ME*in such cases are the direct ones (windshield, front windows) and reflected ones (side mirrors/RVM).


Fixed it for you.



> I made a conscious (I could pick on you, but I know what you meant) choice to compromise in my daily driver's system, but not the one you ascribe to me.


eh.... I flubbed a hominem... if that's the worst mistake I make, my lineage of English teachers would be relieved. 


> Rather, I compromised between sound and aesthetics/security; using the stock locations meant it was necessary to use wideband drive units that are smaller than ideal.
> 
> All of those are problems or not based on placement and skill of the installer. None of them are intrinsic to the drivers.


Not intrinsic to the driver, intrinsic to the location. The issues you have with kicks are also subject to placement and installation skill.



> Allow me to redefine the criteria a little bit: 90db per channel at ca. 1m from 200Hz to the top of their range with minimal dynamic compression. NS3, 10BGS for sure based on personal experience. (JBL GTO220 as well, if you bump the LF corner requirement up an octave and change.) TG9/9BGS as well based on our gracious host's review and measurements. So nothing smaller than 3", admittedly, but in that range there are options.


Options, yes... compromises, yes. None of these have the dynamic or overall volume capabilities of a comparable 4" driver... Nor do they have the extension of a 1 or 2" driver. You sacrificed certain things to get other things. Some may 'prefer' a more dynamic sound, or more overall volume. Others may prefer that top end tinkle... It's a choice... not right or wrong, but a choice.



> *For me* they are the only viable option. The only speakers I have installed in vehicles I've owned or spent significant time in to cover above the modal region are the following:
> KEF KAR System 160Q (coincident point source)
> Seas H1144 (coincident point source)
> Aura Whisper (wideband)


For me, the pursuit is part (most) of the fun. I've tried coincident drivers, 3 way set ups (passive and active), coax's in the kicks or dash, mid's in the dash, tweets in the door, wide banders up top, wide banders under the dash, hlcd's, etc.. etc.. a choice.



> Then again, I haven't bought or built a speaker for my home that wasn't an augmented widebander or coincident/Dual Concentric since maybe 2001. And that one was a mistake.


I've always like the Tannoys... although I'm really enjoying my (wide band) WR125 speakers right now.



> Other approaches are, to be frank, _not good enough for me._


You've made your choice.


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> How much linear xmax does it take for a 3" driver to do 90dB at 200Hz? About 3mm, according to a back-of-the-hand calculation. All of the good 3" widebanders can swing that all day. And 90dB at 200Hz is pretty loud.


Now, do those same calcs for music with a 6 db crest factor....


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

Just wondering, are you any chance a scorpio, DS-21?

On topic,
It might be best if you all start another thread on your theories and debates. I'd love to read and learn.


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## rbenz27 (Mar 9, 2006)

Get a room you two lol... or duke it out in PM's


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Thoraudio said:


> Me said:
> 
> 
> > Which they are, in the context of a vehicle operated on public roads. The only images that matter TO MEin such cases are the direct ones (windshield, front windows) and reflected ones (side mirrors/RVM).
> ...


You may consider having a reckless disregard for the safety of everyone else on the road and yourself as well a trivial matter of choice. I do not.


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## Eastcoast (Mar 26, 2005)

I'd love to hear DS and AJ's car at some point, see where all this has gotten them.

I'd probably get some over worded soliloquy full of completely innaplicable hyperbole or "I don't need to listen to it to bash it" to explain why their vehicle is lackluster in what is widely accepted to be the car audio standard of grading. Ie height, width, imaging, tonal balance etc. 

After all, I've heard guys who talk a lot's (excuse the grammar defect) car, I don't need to listen to your car to know what it sounds like  The compromise was too great for you to handle, so you just didn't try


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> You may consider having a reckless disregard for the safety of everyone else on the road and yourself as well a trivial matter of choice. I do not.


straw man. We were talking about audio imaging. Kicks would allow for proper audio imaging, *and* would not restrict view as would dash pods....


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

rbenz27 said:


> Get a room you two lol... or duke it out in PM's


nah, we're discussing the pro's and con's of speaker placement. It hasn't devolved into name calling or useless banter just yet.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> Fair point, and one that does apply to systems like mine with a 2" wideband driver asked to do most of the music. If you're talking about the difference between a 7" 2-way and 12" Dual Concentric I agree with you completely. However, I'm not at all convinced that a front stage consisting of, say, a 3" wideband playing right in front of you from over 200-250Hz and augmented by a 7" dedicated midbass in a door or something is going to be at any dynamic fidelity handicap to a system consisting of a 7" midbass (which, due to the need to play higher, may be less well suited to bass) that's sometimes 2x the distance from you that the widebander would be playing from 80-2k Hz and a 1" dome tweeter that's placed properly playing above that.
> 
> How much linear xmax does it take for a 3" driver to do 90dB at 200Hz? About 3mm, according to a back-of-the-hand calculation. All of the good 3" widebanders can swing that all day. And 90dB at 200Hz is pretty loud.


It's not that loud. Not when it's got to reproduce transients of much higher output than that. Besides, if a system's maximum capabilities max out at "pretty loud" (not that you're necessarily saying that), then it won't fit the needs of some users. 

I believe that the output capabilities in many systems are limited precisely by this issue, either on the amplifier end of things or by the speaker itself. In a 3-way front stage, you often encounter folks that insist on running their 200Hz-2kHz band with a 20 watt amplifier. In a 2-way, they're sometimes more inclined to pump more power into their midrange driver but fail to EQ properly and then end up overcompensating the midrange in order to get the midbass where they want it. In the end, I think people are often bumping up against the power constraints of the driver either in an attempt to achieve a midbass response that the driver isn't well suited for, or to squeeze too much power out of their smaller midrange. It's not terribly difficult to exceed the power capabilities of most small cones and domes handling 200Hz and up with the right program material and high output levels.

And, of course, a reduction of power compression and distortion often accompanies and the benefit of extra output capabilities.


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

Thoraudio said:


> nah, we're discussing the pro's and con's of speaker placement. It hasn't devolved into name calling or useless banter just yet.


Didn't we try this long ago with no success, Wes?   
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2257&page=1&pp=10&highlight=kicks


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## honfatboy (Jul 4, 2005)

... and head over to Sonic for a Cherry Limeade (44 oz.).[/QUOTE said:


> Here in SoCal, I have to drive an hour and a half to the nearest (actually, the only) Sonic. But its worth it.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

honfatboy said:


> Here in SoCal, I have to drive an hour and a half to the nearest (actually, the only) Sonic. But its worth it.


I feel sorry for you sucka's who must make do without Sonic


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> I feel sorry for you sucka's who must make do without Sonic


It's been difficult for me, having moved here from Oklahoma City (where I had 2 Sonics within walking distance of my house!), but the Green Burrito has helped me get through this tough toaster-free time in my life. 

Thank you, GB.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

honfatboy said:


> Here in SoCal, I have to drive an hour and a half to the nearest (actually, the only) Sonic. But its worth it.


You're the luckiest ****ers on the planet. You have In-N-Out. Lots of them. I'm craving a double-double animal-style, well done fries. And some Rolaids to chase it down with.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

SQ_Bronco said:


> It's been difficult for me, having moved here from Oklahoma City (where I had 2 Sonics within walking distance of my house!), but the Green Burrito has helped me get through this tough toaster-free time in my life.
> 
> Thank you, GB.


There's nothing like a route 44 cherry limeade.


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## honfatboy (Jul 4, 2005)

dawgdan said:


> You're the luckiest ****ers on the planet. You have In-N-Out. Lots of them. I'm craving a double-double animal-style, well done fries. And some Rolaids to chase it down with.


Having just moved out here from Texas, In-N-Out is totally overrated. And they don't have the Sonic drinks.

Glad some people can empathize with me!


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

honfatboy said:


> Having just moved out here from Texas, In-N-Out is totally overrated. And they don't have the Sonic drinks.
> 
> Glad some people can empathize with me!


What part of Tejas?


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

U should try Islands burger, the hawaiian. Blow in-and-out outta water..


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

[samuel l. jackson]This *is* a tasty burger[/samuel l. jackson]


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## Tommythecat (Apr 6, 2006)

[pee wee herman] You're the guys from the hamburger train, right?[/pee wee herman]


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

This has got to be the greatest thread ever. Speakers, fancy clothes, watches, condescending and totally ridiculous smack talk, and burgers.


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

This thread could easily become DIYMAs' very own "THE BEAST"


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Thoraudio said:


> straw man. We were talking about audio imaging. Kicks would allow for proper audio imaging, *and* would not restrict view as would dash pods....


Not straw man. We're talking about something _distracting the driver._ Moreover, I've never seen any dash-mounted speakers (except for one of Zausmer's systems in a magazine) that obstructed anyone's view.


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

DS-21 said:


> Not straw man. We're talking about something _distracting the driver._ Moreover, I've never seen any dash-mounted speakers (except for one of Zausmer's systems in a magazine) that obstructed anyone's view.


you're worried about the _audio_ image distracting the driver? 


say wha?


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## tdgesq (Apr 16, 2006)

Since this thread is going to live forever anyway, I might as well post. I have on a couple of occasions almost wrecked my car trying to focus on imaging (and the many problems I might be able to possibly correct) while driving. I try not to do it anymore, but sometimes it is difficult to resist.

By the way, this is the most bizarre thread I have ever had the privilege of reading.


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2006)

> Originally Posted by Thoraudio
> straw man. We were talking about audio imaging. Kicks would allow for proper audio imaging, and would not restrict view as would dash pods....
> 
> Originally Posted by DS-21
> Not straw man. We're talking about something distracting the driver. Moreover, I've never seen any dash-mounted speakers (except for one of Zausmer's systems in a magazine) that obstructed anyone's view.


DS-21

Its important to establish how standards are being defined and by whom. We have Thor parrotting terms that he's read on the internet like straw man and ad hominem and insisting that ankle speakers allow "proper" imaging, without considering that to his standards, this may be correct.
Have you considered that to someone who's main system:








might define "proper" imaging and soundstage slight different from:








or be a hypocrite, since his speakers appear to be raised quite high and not sitting on the floor. I wonder why this is?  



> Originally Posted by Thoraudio
> you're worried about the audio image distracting the driver?
> say wha?


Exactly LOL.

cheers,

AJ


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

AJ, Any progress on the Aura NS2/Dayton DA175 project of yours?

Regards
Leo


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2006)

No. I rented out the loft in the pic above a couple weeks ago. I'm moving to house - with a garage. For the 1st time in 3yrs I have somewhere to build/measure. I'll have lots of projects completed soon. I'll let you and Geoff know when you can come over for a listen.
When I do finish the DA175/Auras, they won't be going on the floor, for "proper" imaging. Got it?  

cheers,

AJ


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

oh wait.... audio snobbery? *gasp*

FWIW, I have no shame in my vintage Denon electronics or WR's as my computer system.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2006)

Good. Then stop being such a hypocrite and put them floor like you've been spouting, so you can get your "proper" imaging. Oh wait, Audio hypocrisy *gasp*.
Post a pic when you do so I can get some more laughs. 
Or maybe switch to the Legatias and get some real paper cone fidelity.

cheers,

AJ


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

AJinFLA said:


> No. I rented out the loft in the pic above a couple weeks ago. I'm moving to house - with a garage. For the 1st time in 3yrs I have somewhere to build/measure. I'll have lots of projects completed soon. I'll let you and Geoff know when you can come over for a listen.
> When I do finish the DA175/Auras, they won't be going on the floor, for "proper" imaging. Got it?
> 
> cheers,
> ...


Awesome man, Congrats on the house... 
Looking forward to listen to some nice speakers... 

Oh, I think we're having a GTG next Sat at the Hooters in Brandon... You're welcome to come if you had like.

Cheers

Leo


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2006)

10-4. I'll try to make one some time. Raul invited me a while back. What ever happened to the racer?

cheers,

AJ


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## 300Z (Mar 20, 2005)

Raul's got a bike a while ago and has been quite busy with that...  

He should be emailing us next monday about the GTG, I'll keep you posted. 

Cheers

Leo


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

AJinFLA said:


> Good. Then stop being such a hypocrite and put them floor like you've been spouting, so you can get your "proper" imaging. Oh wait, Audio hypocrisy *gasp*.
> Post a pic when you do so I can get some more laughs.
> Or maybe switch to the Legatias and get some real paper cone fidelity.
> 
> ...


say huh? 

I say that because of the compromises necessary in mobile audio that kick panel install's may be appropriate in certain situations, but I'm a hypocrite for not putting my computer speakers on the floor?

 

wake me up when you've got something besides idiocy to share.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

AJinFLA said:


> DS-21
> 
> Its important to establish how standards are being defined and by whom. We have Thor parrotting terms that he's read on the internet like straw man and ad hominem and insisting that ankle speakers allow "proper" imaging, without considering that to his standards, this may be correct.
> Have you considered that to someone who's main system:
> ...


Fair point. For the record, here's my idea of a nearfield/computer system with top-notch imaging, supreme fidelity to the timbre of the original source, and absolutely no compromises in terms of dynamic fidelity.

Mains:

(R and L: Tannoy CPA-12, with modified crossovers. C: stock Tannoy System 12 DMT ][.) 

Sub:

(Peerless XLS12 + XLS12-PR.)

Electronics:

(Pioneer Elite EX-500 switching-amp receiver+DVD-A/SACD player package, HeadRoom Total AirHead, Senn HD-580s.)

And Wes, going back to an earlier few pages on this thread, here's another picture that might interest you. 

(From right to left: gold/leather band Tag Heuer S/el, stainless Time Design, matte stainless/matte stainless bracelet S/el, shiny Emporio Armani tank. I tend to keep my daily-wear watches at my desk because I always take my watch off when I type. The occasional-wear automatics stay in a shaker inside of a safe with my nicer cufflinks and other stuff like that.)

None of these pictures, however, are my idea of good photography. Rather, they are my idea of 2:15am cellphone camera photography.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

u are t3h sux0rs at teh interw3b


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2006)

> Originally Posted by *Thoraudio*
> 
> say huh?
> I say that because of the compromises necessary in mobile audio that kick panel install's may be appropriate in certain situations, but I'm a hypocrite for not putting my computer speakers on the floor?


You got called out for the mindless little imbecile that you are. End of story.
All your back pedalling won't change that.

I'm sure those WRs are probably the finest sound in the trailer park, illustrating your speaker design skills while highlighting your hypocrisy quite well with their placement. Fullranges are perfect for those who are clueless about crossovers, or anything else. Know what I mean?
BTW, is that your "computer" flat screen between them on the computer stand LOL?
FYI, keep your moronic little commentary to yourself the next time you see me posting or get called out for the fool again  .

cheers,

AJ

p.s. Dawgdan, stay of the drugs man, they'll ruin ya.


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## NaamanF (Jan 18, 2006)

I liked this better when you metrosexuals were talking about watches and shoes.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

AJinFLA said:


> p.s. Dawgdan, stay of the drugs man, they'll ruin ya.


No drugs here, just a friendly jab at DS-21. If it went over your head, ignore it.

Resume the keyboard war! You guys are dorkier than LARPers.


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## Thoraudio (Aug 9, 2005)

dawgdan said:


> u are t3h sux0rs at teh interw3b


x agreeder.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

You don't know how much it pains me to lock this thread, but it has gone far off topic, refuses to die, and some of the comments that have been made are quite inappropriate.

To those members, I believe you know who you are... in the future please get your point across without insulting others


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