# Bookshelf speakers!!!



## Wheres The Butta

I'm making a little set of bookshelf speakers with a spare set of 6.5" JL audio ZR woofers & passive crossovers, paired with Dayton Reference Series RS28A-4 tweeters.

Pics so far. 

*New table saw*










*Diablo blade for new table saw - cuts like a hot knife through butter*










*Cuts done*










*Glue and then tiny nails so it looks pretty *


----------



## Austin

that blade looks really high...hopefully you were just having it up to show off the blade . it should only be 1/4" or the teeth above the wood surface.

excited to see the end product.


----------



## ItalynStylion

^Is right. I'd also get a blade with many more teeth for a cleaner cut. Looks like you're doing well so far. Keep us updated.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Haha I was trying it out to see how it cut bigger pieces of wood 

it cut through 3" of wood like nothing, I love it

also, that's a 40 tooth blade, it's not super fine but it makes pretty clean edges - I'll show a pic of that later.


----------



## Austin

bd5034 said:


> Haha I was trying it out to see how it cut bigger pieces of wood
> 
> it cut through 3" of wood like nothing, I love it
> 
> also, that's a 40 tooth blade, it's not super fine but it makes pretty clean edges - I'll show a pic of that later.


wow 3"..damn, that's the beauty of new tools


----------



## Wheres The Butta

It's such a nice change from what I was working with before...

I was using a rechargeable black and decker 3" blade trim saw.

from 3" blade trim saw to 10" blade table saw is a huge jump


----------



## Wheres The Butta

UPDATE!!!!!!!!

as posted earlier, all the cuts are done. I have 5/6 of the surfaces on one of the speakers glued / nailed together. By the end of the week both cabinets will be ready for paint. I'll keep updates as more gets done.


----------



## ItalynStylion

Nice, I always like to see other projects getting done.


----------



## pickler

Looks nice I would like to see the end product


----------



## Wheres The Butta

I think I'm going to sand and paint them. I was thinking black lacquer.


----------



## audiophile25

Looks like a fun project. Keep us posted.


----------



## ehkewley

Congrats on the new table saw. I just picked one up this weekend myself.. hoping to expand my woodworking. Looks like a craftsman saw?

Nice job btw.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

ehkewley said:


> Congrats on the new table saw. I just picked one up this weekend myself.. hoping to expand my woodworking. Looks like a craftsman saw?
> 
> Nice job btw.


grats and high-five for you, sir 

it's a ryobi, and I purchased a Diablo blade for cleaner cuts

so far so good!


----------



## Austin

any more pics coming soon? dont be afraid to do simple day by day updates.  we would all like it. even if you just sanded the cabinets haha


----------



## Wheres The Butta

I'll take more pics as I get more done. so far all I've done is put the top and side of one cabinet together lol

I may get a little more done tonight, have to see how things go.


----------



## drocpsu

Austin said:


> any more pics coming soon? dont be afraid to do simple day by day updates.  we would all like it. even if you just sanded the cabinets haha


seriously. I want to see some construction pics!


----------



## Nomad

can't wait to see this one finished


----------



## Wheres The Butta

alright I'll take a pic or two tonight, promise <3

I'm beginning assembly of the second cabinet after work so I'll show you how they look unsanded and without the baffle


----------



## 60ndown

make sure they sound good before you spend hours making em look purdy.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

TBH, these are just two-way bookshelf speakers, I can't imagine them actually sounding bad lol. I'll take a listen to them before I paint them though =) Worst that can happen is I play with the enclosure size by adding some clay and / or polyfill.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

This is just for one speaker that I've got mostly done, the second speaker will be exactly the same so I won't be posting pics of progress for that one, just finished shots.

*The JL woofer & Crossover*









The Dayton tweeter








*
Tweeter on top of cabinet *









*Cabinet alone*


----------



## Wheres The Butta

*Cabinet with baffle on. Still need to rout the holes, waiting to borrow a router from a friend.*









*
The lip I left on the front so I have room to mount a grill:*










*Side shot:*









*Angle shot:*


----------



## Wheres The Butta

wow no comments after all that!? lol


----------



## 60ndown

bd5034 said:


> wow no comments after all that!? lol


you made a box, well done.:laugh:


----------



## chickenfizz

meow


----------



## chickenfizz

chickenfizz said:


> meow


Sorry, had to be done to get a post! This forum is hard work!


----------



## Wheres The Butta

60ndown said:


> you made a box, well done.:laugh:


hahahah

I was thinking more about the design. Like/dislike the protrusions on the top and bottom? I thought it would look stately and refined. I also figured it would create a more stable speaker that won't easily tip over =)

I plan to attach some sort of feet to the bottom of the cabinet. 

Also, I'm hoping the little shelf that I left in front to affix a grill will be an acceptable size.


----------



## ZZROCOOL

Austin said:


> that blade looks really high...hopefully you were just having it up to show off the blade . it should only be 1/4" or the teeth above the wood surface.
> 
> excited to see the end product.


Why would you wast time doing this project???

you can buy better premade speakers for less money not to mention that speakers for car audio are not designed to be installed in a sealed box 

ITS SCAREY HOW LITTLE PEOPLE ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND ABOUT AUDIO

have you researched interal standing waves in the speaker cabinet, necessary cabinet bracing, front baeefl rack?


----------



## ItalynStylion

ZZROCOOL said:


> Why would you wast time doing this project???
> 
> you can buy better premade speakers for less money not to mention that speakers for car audio are not designed to be installed in a sealed box
> 
> ITS SCAREY HOW LITTLE PEOPLE ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND ABOUT AUDIO
> 
> have you researched interal standing waves in the speaker cabinet, necessary cabinet bracing, front baeefl rack?


Hold up bud, this is a DIY site. We enjoy doing things ourselves.


----------



## ehkewley

ZZROCOOL said:


> Why would you wast time doing this project???
> 
> you can buy better premade speakers for less money not to mention that speakers for car audio are not designed to be installed in a sealed box
> 
> ITS SCAREY HOW LITTLE PEOPLE ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND ABOUT AUDIO
> 
> have you researched interal standing waves in the speaker cabinet, necessary cabinet bracing, front baeefl rack?


Relax, it's just a bookshelf speaker. There are several very good sites dedicated to designing, building, and testing of home audio speakers. IMO quality premade speakers are generally overpriced, and beyond the cost of materials you can save a lot of money by doing it yourself using existing knowledge and designs. What better way to learn than by doing?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

TBH, this is just a computer speaker setup. Also, I'm not really sure how internal waves will be a problem since I'm putting some damping material inside the box. The plan was to damp the walls and then stuff the box with polyfill  

Also, I assume you meant bracing the baffle. Please explain why I need bracing on the baffle when it's only 12" long and 7.5" wide, and only using a single 6.5" midwoofer.

If there's a good reason for it, I will brace the baffle. If there's no compelling reason, I won't.


----------



## 94VG30DE

ZZROCOOL said:


> Why would you wast time doing this project???
> 
> you can buy better premade speakers for less money not to mention that speakers for car audio are not designed to be installed in a sealed box
> 
> *ITS SCAREY HOW LITTLE PEOPLE ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND ABOUT AUDIO*
> 
> have you researched interal standing waves in the speaker cabinet, necessary cabinet bracing, front baeefl rack?


Aside from the poor spelling and gratuitous use of CAPSLOCK, all I can think about when I read the bolded sentence above is "yes, midgets _do_ know a lot about car audio, and I have no idea why..." 

Also what is "front baeefl rack"?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

lol.... I'm currently consumed with building boxes for my 10w6's so I'll get back to pics of these in a few days.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Ok, should I continue this thread and add pics of the other stuff I'm building, or should I make a new thread with a different title?

I'm not only doing bookshelf speakers, I'm also doing three seperate subwoofer enclosures for the home theater and a MASSIVE install in my car. I'm going to need help designing tower speakers sometime soon. 

I have the woofers for the tower speakers already, as I happened upon a sensational deal for 8" Revolution Design classic woofers. The midranges, tweeters, and crossovers, and cabinet are completely up in the air.


----------



## ehkewley

I'd say separate the car audio into the build log forum... but the rest of the stuff sounds at home in this current thread.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

that's what I'm thinking...


----------



## slade1274

As far as the design.... I would have recommended borrowing the router before gluing it all together; that way you could have put a nice uniform roundover on all the edges. Also, if the front baffle is attached, how are you going to route the holes with the overhangs top/bottom?


----------



## Austin

slade1274 said:


> As far as the design.... I would have recommended borrowing the router before gluing it all together; that way you could have put a nice uniform roundover on all the edges. Also, if the front baffle is attached, how are you going to route the holes with the overhangs top/bottom?


good points.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

slade1274 said:


> As far as the design.... I would have recommended borrowing the router before gluing it all together; that way you could have put a nice uniform roundover on all the edges. Also, if the front baffle is attached, how are you going to route the holes with the overhangs top/bottom?



The front baffle is not attached. It's just a very snug/precise fit, so I put it on there to show how clean of a cut it was 

Also, I've never used a router for anything. Not even once. I think roundovers might be above my skill level - I was just going to sand the edges a little bit by hand. The circle cuts for the mounting holes don't worry me because my friend has a circle jig... from what I've seen in tutorials, that makes it practically idiot proof.


----------



## ehkewley

Are you using a miter gauge, or a rip fence for the smaller cuts? I find it very hard to get accurate cuts with my miter gauge. I'm usually off by 1/16".


----------



## Wheres The Butta

ehkewley said:


> Are you using a miter gauge, or a rip fence for the smaller cuts? I find it very hard to get accurate cuts with my miter gauge. I'm usually off by 1/16".



I'm not cutting any angles so it's all with the rip fence. I'm extremely pleased with the accuracy of this saw. It has been dead on with every cut - any errors have been my own. 

I figured I would stick to rectangular shapes since I'm a complete novice. I'm basically as green as anyone could possibly be. This is my first woodworking project since the pine derby in cub scouts. I never even took wood shop in highschool.....


----------



## briansz

ehkewley said:


> Are you using a miter gauge, or a rip fence for the smaller cuts? I find it very hard to get accurate cuts with my miter gauge. I'm usually off by 1/16".


Stick some 180 or 220 grit PSA adhesive sandpaper on the face of the gauge. Once things stop wandering, accuracy is a lot better. Works on miter saw fences too.


----------



## ehkewley

bd5034 said:


> I'm not cutting any angles so it's all with the rip fence. I'm extremely pleased with the accuracy of this saw. It has been dead on with every cut - any errors have been my own.
> 
> I figured I would stick to rectangular shapes since I'm a complete novice. I'm basically as green as anyone could possibly be. This is my first woodworking project since the pine derby in cub scouts. I never even took wood shop in highschool.....


I'll try using that then. No prior experience? That's impressive for a first-time project.

..

Thanks Briansz.. I'll try that sandpaper tip and see what happens.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

I've been focusing on my subwoofer enlcosures recently. I've got the powered enclosure built, and I'm in the process of building one of the passive enclosures. Once all three are built, I'm going to finish them up, but I'm not really sure what I want to do.

I was thinking of buying fiberglass body filler and smearing it all over the enclosures one side at a time and smoothing it out to make a nice uniform surface. Then I was planning on rough sanding it, then fine sanding it, then priming it, then wet sanding it, then priming again, then painting. I want the end result to have a glass-like finish, and I'm going to put little rubbet feet on each enclosure and stack them on top of each other. I think it will look really cool.


----------



## briansz

Just don't sand enough to go through the hard face of any MDF. The core and edges are a lot more porous and will require a lot more filling. Other than that, sounds like you are on the right track. If you have a spray gun, get some decent acrylic lacquer primer meant for auto body use, it's loads better than what comes in the rattle cans. Wet or dry sand in 25 minutes and much better build than the spray can stuff.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

briansz said:


> Just don't sand enough to go through the hard face of any MDF. The core and edges are a lot more porous and will require a lot more filling. Other than that, sounds like you are on the right track. If you have a spray gun, get some decent acrylic lacquer primer meant for auto body use, it's loads better than what comes in the rattle cans. Wet or dry sand in 25 minutes and much better build than the spray can stuff.


I have a friend that works in an auto body shop... I'm mulling the possibility of asking him to do it for me. I don't want to impose though  Unfortunately I don't have access to a spray gun for my own personal use. I could very likely, however, procure an airbrush for a short period of time.


----------



## Relax

Austin said:


> that blade looks really high...hopefully you were just having it up to show off the blade . it should only be 1/4" or the teeth above the wood surface.
> 
> excited to see the end product.



I would have to disagree with this statement. 

Having the blade of a table saw this low does two things- both hazardous to your safety.

The first thing is that the blade's low height causes the blade's teeth to cut through the wood at an angle close to parallel to the table - each tooth cut creates a force then that is against your feed. In essence encouraging kick back.

The second is that when the blade is higher, the blade's teeth are cutting perpendicular to the table, forcing the wood down (discouraging kickback) but also cutting less material with each pass with the same infeed speed. This will make your blades last longer.

I know that most people will argue that the lower blade position is safer- but in reality it is not. With all guards in place and a push stick to feed the stock through the table saw, a higher blade is safer.



Other then that- excellent first build!


----------



## briansz

As a professional cabinetmaker and now engineer, I would say that I was taught to have only the gullets of the blade above the work. Based on experience, last post is correct, however - downforce is much better than force towards the user. Use common sense and a push stick. If you can contort around it, use a guard.

This could become the modern version of a 1990's Fine Woodworking debate about table saw safety <lol>. My favorite letter to the editor from that exchange was from a man in his 70's that had been woodworking for 50+ years. He stated that he'd never used a table saw guard and had only been cut once - when he was running the saw and a truck crashed through the front of his shop.

Sometimes the safety thing _can_ be dangerous. The only time I've almost been cut on a table saw was when I had hearing protection, gloves, and safety glasses on. I was using a Unisaw with a stock feeder to rip lots of strips and doing that made a lot of chips. I swung the feeder out of the way and was distracted by a co-worker, and forgot that the saw was running. I couldn't hear it with the ear protection in a noisy shop. I swiped my hand between the fence and blade to clear out the chips and WHUMP. Put a hole in the freaking glove and didn't touch my skin. Didn't even want to pull the glove off to look. I haven't forgotten that.

The shop I work at now has two SawStop table saws, a lot safer.


----------



## ChiTownSQ

:lurk:


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

When a guard gets in the way you have problems.


----------



## Austin

Relax said:


> I would have to disagree with this statement.
> 
> Having the blade of a table saw this low does two things- both hazardous to your safety.
> 
> The first thing is that the blade's low height causes the blade's teeth to cut through the wood at an angle close to parallel to the table - each tooth cut creates a force then that is against your feed. In essence encouraging kick back.
> 
> The second is that when the blade is higher, the blade's teeth are cutting perpendicular to the table, forcing the wood down (discouraging kickback) but also cutting less material with each pass with the same infeed speed. This will make your blades last longer.
> 
> I know that most people will argue that the lower blade position is safer- but in reality it is not. With all guards in place and a push stick to feed the stock through the table saw, a higher blade is safer.
> 
> 
> 
> Other then that- excellent first build!



i was taught by a professional cabinet maker to keep the teeth and a little bit of the blade above the work. the way you explain it does make sense though. just repeating what a professional/teacher taught me.

and brians: i have had the great experience to use sawstop table saws for the last two years of my 3 year class in high school. they are a true wonder especially with the hot dog trick..just amazing. you do feel a lot safer.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

I'm using the guard so I'm not afraid falling on the blade  Also, the saw I'm using has a notched metal guard directly behind the blade that helps prevent kickback. For anything where my hand comes within 5 or less inches of the blade I use a push stick, but thankfully I've only had one cut like that.


----------



## chad

I keep the blade a bit above the cut and don't use a guard.. I have 10 fingers.

I have been using a table saw a LONG time... If it's too high the chances of kick back go up dramatically.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

chad said:


> I keep the blade a bit above the cut and don't use a guard.. I have 10 fingers.
> 
> I have been using a table saw a LONG time... If it's too high the chances of kick back go up dramatically.


really? that's counterintuitive. I've heard two different schools of thought here, stop confusing me dammit. 

lol.... 

back to the project at hand, I'm still without a router and I have no clue wtf I'm going to do. I also don't even know how to use a router so it's going to take me a while before these baffles are done. I did, however, get some work done on my subwoofer enclosures and plan to post pics of that within a day or two.


----------



## Relax

You're both absolutely right. If you are familar with the table saw, and comfortable with a low blade- then its probably safer for you to do it that way. I myself usually have the blade low for inexact cuts or on a wide rip or crosscut with miter gauge. But for those small or thin pieces, I use the guards and a push stick with a high blade. 

In the end- stress, speeding through work, and inattentiveness are the real unsafe practices. If someone is comfortable yet attentive on the machine they will be safe.


----------



## briansz

chad said:


> I keep the blade a bit above the cut and don't use a guard.. I have 10 fingers.
> 
> I have been using a table saw a LONG time... If it's too high the chances of kick back go up dramatically.


That's mostly due to blade distortion/deflection. It's especially common with the thin kerf blades made today that don't have a full 1/8" wide tooth and the corresponding thick steel body. If your fence is even slightly out of parallel with the blade, or your stock is slightly less than straight, you'll have lots of problems with a thin kerf blade. Featherboards are your friend here.


----------



## briansz

bd5034 said:


> really? that's counterintuitive. I've heard two different schools of thought here, stop confusing me dammit.
> 
> lol....
> 
> back to the project at hand, I'm still without a router and I have no clue wtf I'm going to do. I also don't even know how to use a router so it's going to take me a while before these baffles are done. I did, however, get some work done on my subwoofer enclosures and plan to post pics of that within a day or two.


Are you wanting to cut or recess holes or round over edges with your router?


----------



## chad

I've just used the amount of blade that I have needed to do the job... BUT I'm not a cabinet maker therefore the majority of my money doe NOT go to saws


----------



## Wheres The Butta

briansz said:


> Are you wanting to cut or recess holes or round over edges with your router?


I want to make perfectly round mounting holes. I tried it with a jigsaw and they came out very sloppy... The angle of the cut was slightly off so that they tapered a bit, and my shakey hands made it look like it was cut during an earthquake.

edit: once I get some practice with a router and become comfortable, I'd definately like to try some roundovers.


----------



## briansz

Then you need to build or buy a circle jig for the router. I made mine out of baltic birch plywood with a couple hardware bits from a cheap plastic Craftsman one. A lot of other guys use the Jasper one, but it's a little more spendy. Let's start with your type of router and budget for a jig and go from there. I'll take pix of the one I built if it helps out.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

briansz said:


> Then you need to build or buy a circle jig for the router. I made mine out of baltic birch plywood with a couple hardware bits from a cheap plastic Craftsman one. A lot of other guys use the Jasper one, but it's a little more spendy. Let's start with your type of router and budget for a jig and go from there. I'll take pix of the one I built if it helps out.


I don't have a router yet  I was considering buying one, but I don't know if I can justify the expenditure since I will use it only intermittenly for small projects like this one.

Also, I broke my dremel tool so I need to buy a new one of those.... this stuff adds up.... haha

I was using one of those small stylus type dremel tools to grind the head of a bolt and I must have broken the internal shaft because it started spinning very quickly but there was no motion on the bit. I plan on getting one of the beefier dremel models so this doesn't happen again. 

On the bright side, I discovered that the dremel bits fit in my roto-zip spiral saw, so I've used that to grind a couple of screws and bolts. I tried to use one of the sanding bits on it, but the RPM is way too high on the roto-zip, and the sanding bit broke apart after about two passes haha. Thankfully I wear safety goggles!

I'm probably stupid for having tried it, but I honestly know nothing about woodworking and the tools associated with it. The table saw was easy as pie to figure out, it's pretty much self-explanatory.


----------



## Hillbilly SQ

Way back in the day my moms dad was using a homemade table saw with the blade attached where the bolt would come loose. Well it did and it cut his head open. Was told it scattered some of his brains in the yard. His brother was gonna just let him lay there and die because they hated each other. He went braindead at the age of 83 several decades after the incident. People always said I was crazy. He's my moms dad afterall.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Way back in the day my moms dad was using a homemade table saw with the blade attached where the bolt would come loose. Well it did and it cut his head open. Was told it scattered some of his brains in the yard. His brother was gonna just let him lay there and die because they hated each other. He went braindead at the age of 83 several decades after the incident. People always said I was crazy. He's my moms dad afterall.


that's rough. 

I'm not really sure how this went from a build log to a conversation about table saws and power tools.. :surprised:


----------



## chithead

What about an adjustable hole cutter if you don't have a router? Would be a bit cheaper if you already have a drill, especially if you don't plan on using the router a whole lot after this project:


----------



## Wheres The Butta

chithead said:


> What about an adjustable hole cutter if you don't have a router? Would be a bit cheaper if you already have a drill, especially if you don't plan on using the router a whole lot after this project:



I've never seen one of those... that's really cool. I definately have to look into that.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

The blade does not cause a kickback, improper use of the saw causes kickbacks. You can have just a dangerous of a kickback at the proper setting (teeth +1/8 over the piece) as you can with a high blade. What causes a kickback is cutting a parallel piece on a diagonal.. that is to say you torque the blade while you are feeding the wood. This is dangerous no matter how tall your blade is set. To avoid this you push down, sideways towards the fence, and forwards, all at the same time. 

the cutting edge begins cutting at the bottom (as that is the leading edge of the blade) to the top. With an increased blade surface area (high blade) you will run into two possible downfalls. One, the increased cross section of the blade will transfer more of the saw energy to the piece when it is being thrown. More energy = worse kickback. Another possible problem is the heat generated by the larger cross section of the tall blade. If your fence isn't perfectly parallel your saw blade will be torqued and the full cross section of the cut will become one giant heat generating station. We all know what happens with metal gets hot right... it expands... which can cause a kickback.

The blade works best when it is moving the fastest. It is obvious that the extremities of the blade (the tips) spin faster than the interior (middle) of the blade. Therefore, logic dictates that the LOWER the blade is with a reduced cross section it will be spinning faster through the cut, with more momentum, and without the breaking effect of the larger cross section of the higher blade.


----------



## Austin

BoostedNihilist said:


> The blade works best when it is moving the fastest. It is obvious that the extremities of the blade (the tips) spin faster than the interior (middle) of the blade. Therefore, logic dictates that the LOWER the blade is with a reduced cross section it will be spinning faster through the cut, with more momentum, and without the breaking effect of the larger cross section of the higher blade.


couldnt have said it better.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

BoostedNihilist said:


> The blade does not cause a kickback, improper use of the saw causes kickbacks. You can have just a dangerous of a kickback at the proper setting (teeth +1/8 over the piece) as you can with a high blade. What causes a kickback is cutting a parallel piece on a diagonal.. that is to say you torque the blade while you are feeding the wood. This is dangerous no matter how tall your blade is set. To avoid this you push down, sideways towards the fence, and forwards, all at the same time.


This makes sense.




BoostedNihilist said:


> the cutting edge begins cutting at the bottom (as that is the leading edge of the blade) to the top. With an increased blade surface area (high blade) you will run into two possible downfalls. *One, the increased cross section of the blade will transfer more of the saw energy to the piece when it is being thrown. More energy = worse kickback. *Another possible problem is the heat generated by the larger cross section of the tall blade. If your fence isn't perfectly parallel your saw blade will be torqued and the full cross section of the cut will become one giant heat generating station. We all know what happens with metal gets hot right... it expands... which can cause a kickback.


 huh? why would the saw be transferring more energy if it was higher up? The rotational force is exactly the same no matter what. As the wood passes the blade, it gets cut and should not touch the saw blade at all after the initial cut. (at least my blade does that)

I have no idea how expanding metal can cause a kickback either.  

I'm a complete novice woodworker, but the way you are explaining this is confusing and counterintuitive. Using common sense, the expanding metal shouldn't make a bit of difference because the teeth will expand as well, and thus cut a bigger path. That's assuming that there is actually significant expansion, which there should not be. 



BoostedNihilist said:


> The blade works best when it is moving the fastest. It is obvious that the extremities of the blade (the tips) spin faster than the interior (middle) of the blade. Therefore, logic dictates that the LOWER the blade is with a reduced cross section it will be spinning faster through the cut, with more momentum, and without the breaking effect of the larger cross section of the higher blade.


my question to you then is this: what about a larger cut?

If what you're saying it true, then cutting any large piece of wood is always dangerous because the blade my inherently be raised high and will always be smack in the middle of a whole lot of wood.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

> huh? why would the saw be transferring more energy if it was higher up? The rotational force is exactly the same no matter what. As the wood passes the blade, it gets cut and should not touch the saw blade at all after the initial cut. (at least my blade does that)


As to your last point in your statement yes. But in that situation there would never be a bind or a pitch because what causes a pitch is when the front of the blade and the back of the blade are trying to cut the wood in two different directions. You can do this easily with a skilsaw.. go cut a piece of wood and twist the saw while you cut.. actually, don't do that because it WILL bind and MAY HURT YOU.

If you are cutting a piece of 3/4 in wood with the teeth just above the cut the cross section of material to blade is at the minimum. As you raise the blade of your saw you will notice that more of the blade shows over the deck. Not only is the blade taller but it's LONGER along the deck plane. Check it for yourself. Measure front to back on the exposed blade with the blade in a low position and then do the same in the high position.

Now, when it comes to a bind there is more available surface area for the saw to vector its torque against.. the more surface area the more available force the saw can vector back towards you.

simplest answer though... leverage.



> I have no idea how expanding metal can cause a kickback either.


The expansion of metal can very definitely be a contributing factor to a kickback, though to get there you usually have to have at least one error in your technique. Basically, what happens is the blade heats unevenly expands and warps... the warp acts the same as an non-parallel cut. 



> I'm a complete novice woodworker, but the way you are explaining this is confusing and counterintuitive. Using common sense, the expanding metal shouldn't make a bit of difference because the teeth will expand as well, and thus cut a bigger path. That's assuming that there is actually significant expansion, which there should not be.


It is not that confusing if you actually take a second to think about it. First of all, the teeth are usually a different metal than the blade. Different composition/different density = different rate of expansion. Looking at a blade, we can see that it is round. We can also see that unless we have a very expensive saw with a large motor that usually only about 1/3 (maximum) will be exposed to the friction which causes the heat... 

Also, your context of expansion is limited by your adhesion to the 'counterintuitivity' of the explanation. The heat causes the blade to expand, this doesn't mean that all of a sudden you now have a 10.5" blade, it means that since the centre is still cool in comparison to the extremities the blade is now going to warp to allow for the unequal heat expansion. A warped blade will act in the same manner as a non parallel cut.

Also, there is more than metal in the picture. The WOOD will also expand when heated also unevenly, creating pressure on the cutting disc. I could get into gyroscopic precession to explain this but I doubt it would help... not so much in MDF but this can become very noticeable with ripping oily or humid woods



> my question to you then is this: what about a larger cut?
> 
> If what you're saying it true, then cutting any large piece of wood is always dangerous because the blade my inherently be raised high and will always be smack in the middle of a whole lot of wood.


It really depends on your setup but if I understand what you are saying properly then yes. However, it is all relative. Table saws are dangerous pieces of equipment. This is why, when cutting larger pieces of wood we do so in steps, be assured though, that with more cross section available for the torque of the blade to transfer through, a pitch could be very dangerous with a large piece of wood and a high blade position.


----------



## Austin

expansion is on such a small scale it really doesnt matter...unless the blade is heating up several hundred degrees and if that is happening then there is a problem with what your doing. a dull blade or really dense would should be the only reason for a blade to heat up.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

I have seen blades heat up at least hot enough to create a massive amount of smoke. I did not have a thermometer on it but I would have to say that it was definitely very effin hot. It does not take much to warp a blade if you are not careful. If your saw is set properly there is nearly zero tolerance for any expansion, maybe 1/32 of the kerf can go to error (the overhang of the tooth material to the cutting disc).


----------



## digital

I know it's not to the DIY spirit, but Home Depot can cut the MDF or ply for you. All you need is to plan ahead. There's even software to optimize cuts, so you minimize the amount of panels you need to buy. Sometimes they don't cut as precise as needed (1/16" difference), but if you can live with that, it's all good


----------



## Austin

digital said:


> I know it's not to the DIY spirit, but Home Depot can cut the MDF or ply for you. All you need is to plan ahead. There's even software to optimize cuts, so you minimize the amount of panels you need to buy. Sometimes they don't cut as precise as needed (1/16" difference), but if you can live with that, it's all good


i usually just have them split the board so i can take it home. i try to make sure both boards will be the right width for my current project and future projects.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

The problem with home deepthroat cutting boards for me..... is that I had about 40 cuts to make, of wildly varying sizes. They also needed to be 100% precise. 

Also, I appreciate that many of you attempt to explain things to me.... but can you explain it in english? I'm not en engineer, I'm not a chemist, I'm not a physicist. Esoteric language has no place here. When you say things like


> "Now, when it comes to a bind there is more available surface area for the saw to vector its torque against.. the more surface area the more available force the saw can vector back towards you."


, it sounds pedantic.

I have no idea what a vector is or how it relates to leverage. I do understand that when the amount of blade touching the wood is increased, it also increases the strength with which it can kick it back. But please, if that's what you're trying to say..... just say that. There's no need to unnecessarily complicate an already complicated subject lol.....


----------



## BoostedNihilist

*sigh*



> I have no idea what a vector is or how it relates to leverage. I do understand that when the amount of blade touching the wood is increased, it also increases the strength with which it can kick it back. But please, if that's what you're trying to say..... just say that. There's no need to unnecessarily complicate an already complicated subject lol.....


Evidently you completely understood my 'esoteric' explanation however I have to wonder if your understanding of this principle became clear before or after my pedantic explanation, because after I read this from you...



> huh? why would the saw be transferring more energy if it was higher up? The rotational force is exactly the same no matter what. As the wood passes the blade, it gets cut and should not touch the saw blade at all after the initial cut. (at least my blade does that)


I was under the impression that you didn't understand this principle. 

You tried to pick apart my first reply by calling it counterintuitive and offered up some ill conceived counter arguments. Now, you are taking the position that you understood the point I was making all along, even though you called it into question before my so characterized pedantic explanation.

**** you man. Go get your spoonfeeding elsewhere


----------



## Austin

:surprised: so how are the speakers coming along?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

BoostedNihilist said:


> *sigh*
> 
> 
> 
> Evidently you completely understood my 'esoteric' explanation however I have to wonder if your understanding of this principle became clear before or after my pedantic explanation, because after I read this from you...
> 
> 
> 
> I was under the impression that you didn't understand this principle.
> 
> You tried to pick apart my first reply by calling it counterintuitive and offered up some ill conceived counter arguments. Now, you are taking the position that you understood the point I was making all along, even though you called it into question before my so characterized pedantic explanation.
> 
> **** you man. Go get your spoonfeeding elsewhere


somebody's got a sore ego :laugh:

I'll make it easy: I don't like your tone, and I don't like the intentional overcomplication of simple things. I took a few minutes to research the arcane garbage you were spouting off and came to my own understanding no thanks to you. Get your pompous head out of your self-righteous ass and come back down to Earth. Keep it simple, stupid.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Austin said:


> :surprised: so how are the speakers coming along?


I took some pictures tonight, and thank you Austin, you just made me smile. I'm glad someone remembered what the topic was about 

posting them up in a minute.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

Bottom line is what I stated is based on fact, research and experience. Most of those criteria you supposedly request in your very own cute little signature. The fact that you can't understand simple English is your problem not mine. My explanations are clear with correct terminology. They are not overly complicated or incorrect... the fact that you cannot understand them says a lot about you not me.



> I'll make it easy: I don't like your tone


I guess the tone of I know what the **** Im talking about and you definitely do not does have the ability to rub some people the wrong way



> somebody's got a sore ego


If anything my ego has been stroked. It is nice to know that I am definitely smarter than at least one person on this forum... Furthermore, why would my ego be damaged in any way? I was not proven wrong. I was criticized for explaining something to what I had hoped was not the lowest common denominator.. Well, in the future I will keep in mind when explaining things to people here that they must be coddled to as if they are infants. Clearly any complex situation must be dumbed down to the absolute lowest level in order to keep you, and those others who fall into the spoon fed masses in the loop.



> I took a few minutes to research the arcane garbage you were spouting off and came to my own understanding no thanks to you.


Sure you did

again, go **** yourself.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

BoostedNihilist said:


> Bottom line is what I stated is based on fact, research and experience. Most of those criteria you supposedly request in your very own cute little signature. The fact that you can't understand simple English is your problem not mine. My explanations are clear with correct terminology. They are not overly complicated or incorrect... the fact that you cannot understand them says a lot about you not me.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the tone of I know what the **** Im talking about and you definitely do not does have the ability to rub some people the wrong way
> 
> 
> 
> If anything my ego has been stroked. It is nice to know that I am definitely smarter than at least one person on this forum...
> 
> 
> 
> Sure you did
> 
> again, go **** yourself.


you're pathetic, and I'm not wasting my time answering you. You have absolutely no business in my thread, so GTFO. From this point on consider yourself on ignore. I'm sure you're used to that from your life outside the computer screen. Enjoy!


----------



## BoostedNihilist

> you're pathetic, and I'm not wasting my time answering you. You have absolutely no business in my thread, so GTFO. From this point on consider yourself on ignore. I'm sure you're used to that from your life outside the computer screen. Enjoy!


Being as this is an open forum I have every right to be here. If by ignore you mean people coming to me constantly for advice on fabrication, design, and construction processes then you are right. I am so alone that it takes up six hours of every ****ing day. If by ignore you mean that I have a waiting list two months long filled with people who want me to work on their cars then yes, I am completely ignored.

The fact is, this is your problem not mine. You got bent out of shape because you didn't understand something. You didn't 'not' understand what I was saying because of my explanation, you didn't understand because it did not wash with your preconceived 'intuitive' logic. When that was shot down you resulted to personal attacks. 

Im going to make a point of following you and thread dumping on your threads for awhile, just because you don't actually know what is going on around you. If you have a problem with that you can apologize for being a ****in dick and we can carry on. Until then be ready to live with me


----------



## Wheres The Butta

BoostedNihilist said:


> Being as this is an open forum I have every right to be here. If by ignore you mean people coming to me constantly for advice on fabrication, design, and construction processes then you are right. I am so alone that it takes up six hours of every ****ing day. If by ignore you mean that I have a waiting list two months long filled with people who want me to work on their cars then yes, I am completely ignored.
> 
> The fact is, this is your problem not mine. You got bent out of shape because you didn't understand something. You didn't 'not' understand what I was saying because of my explanation, you didn't understand because it did not wash with your preconceived 'intuitive' logic. When that was shot down you resulted to personal attacks.
> 
> Im going to make a point of following you and thread dumping on your threads for awhile, just because you don't actually know what is going on around you. If you have a problem with that you can apologize for being a ****in dick and we can carry on. Until then be ready to live with me


The thing that pisses me off is that you are only here to spout off about how intelligent you are while deriding others who came here to learn. I pointed out that your posts really didn't help me out at all, and that your language was obtuse. 

You're not stupid so don't play stupid - you knew before you even wrote the very first word that what you were going to write was over my head. So why in the world would you post something that you know I don't understand, other than to stroke your own e-peen? Get over yourself you self-important pedant. Nobody cares how many hours of your day you spend talking to other people, it's obvious your only desire in doing so is to make yourself feel important. 

That is why you are pathetic, and that is why I am going to ignore you from now on. Your silly cries for attention and feigned air of importance can go to hell. Now stop wasting space in my thread, douchebag.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

> The thing that pisses me off is that you are only here to spout off about how intelligent you are while deriding others who came here to learn. I pointed out that your posts really didn't help me out at all, and that your language was obtuse.


Look man, you brought the personal attacks in. I was not derisive in any form until you took the first step. I am not here to spout off how intelligent I am. Why are you here? Fishing for compliments on your progress? If what you say is true of me then I wonder if there is a distinction to be made between us.


Besides, listen to you.. pedantic, obtuse, self-righteous, counterintuitive, These sound like terms one would use to display their intelligence. I mean seriously.. You are the kettle calling the pot black



> You're not stupid so don't play stupid - you knew before you even wrote the very first word that what you were going to write was over my head.


Same with you man. It is obvious what is going on. YOUR ego got hurt when YOUR logic was called into question. Since you have no humility you took this as a personal attack and you initiated the downwards spiral that is your thread, not me.

... It took me awhile to figure out that you lack up top. I actually assumed you would just get it. I assumed that since you were here that you had some respectable amount of intellect. I was wrong, my bad.



> So why in the world would you post something that you know I don't understand


I am a multi-talented individual no doubt but telling the future or knowing all is definitely not a skill I possess 

however you *DID* understand what I was saying. You CHOSE to challenge it based on your flawed logic. It was only after it became clear that *you* were wrong that you began flinging the 'i don't understand' card.



> Nobody cares how many hours of your day you spend talking to other people, it's obvious your only desire in doing so is to make yourself feel important.


And nobody really cares that you have accomplished the ever so monumental task of building two 3/4 mdf boxes... 


> That is why you are pathetic, and that is why I am going to ignore you from now on. Your silly cries for attention and feigned air of importance can go to hell. Now stop wasting space in my thread, douchebag.


I am of no importance. I am not crying for attention... I was debunking your crappy logic, and I get that you don't like that. Still though, this is your problem not mine and you know my terms


----------



## chithead

I farted once on the set of Blue Lagoon...


----------



## Wheres The Butta

So as promised. Pictures. I've been obsessed with getting my subwoofer boxes done. I've got them assembled, now I just have to roundover the edges, then sand them and get some body filler on there. 

From there we all know how it's going to go... sand, sand some more.... prime, then sand, then prime then wet sand, then paint


----------



## Wheres The Butta

This is when I did the first mockup of one of the boxes.












then proceeded to glue and clamp 










I put some extra weight on the port since a clamp wouldn't fit in this area


----------



## Wheres The Butta

Mounting hole is cut and baffle is on. Shakey hands made this very difficult to do with a jigsaw.










Side is going on...










I forgot to cut the hole for the plate amplifier before mounting the side....

Had to cut very carefully to make it work.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

you should dial in your fence.. it looks like you have a bit of crosscut going on there


----------



## Wheres The Butta

From the top









I didn't take any pictures of the smaller (passive) boxes getting built since they are almost identical to the larger (powered) enclosure.
I did take a group photo though 










Now I spraypainted the inside of each port black and then installed the top board to finish each enclosure. I will be sanding them this weekend.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

BoostedNihilist said:


> you should dial in your fence.. it looks like you have a bit of crosscut going on there


I missed this in between the pictures.

What do you mean by dial it in? I'm not sure what crosscutting means under these circumstances....  lol....
I'm really not kidding when I say I've got no clue.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

If you look at the pictures you will see some diagonal lines on the edges of your wood pieces... this is caused by having the fence slightly out of square, or pushing the piece through on an angle. On your fence there should be some allen keys that 'push' it's square reference one way or the other. It doesn't look like it is out much though... I was just nitpicking and it isn't a huge deal but you could probably fix it, and save yourself a bit of sanding.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

BoostedNihilist said:


> If you look at the pictures you will see some diagonal lines on the edges of your wood pieces... this is caused by having the fence slightly out of square, or pushing the piece through on an angle. On your fence there should be some allen keys that 'push' it's square reference one way or the other. It doesn't look like it is out much though... I was just nitpicking and it isn't a huge deal but you could probably fix it, and save yourself a bit of sanding.



You know, I did find that some of my cuts didn't fit together as well as I expected. I had to take out my dremel tool and sanding bit and hew some of the edges to make everything fit properly.

edit: there are a few pieces that I did something wrong with. I think I set the measurements on the saw wrong or something because they simply don't fit the way I intended them to.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

let me guess, a little bit of overhang here and there?

If that is what it is it is a simple fix. If you added 1 1/2" (or 1" if you are using half mdf) to the dimensions to account for the wood this is where the error is. they sell it as 3/4 and 1/2 but it is actually a bit smaller...enough to cause some aggrevation. Next time just measure the depth of the material and use that measurement.

Also, 4x8 sheets aren't always square. I always check with my square and then measure the diagonals to make sure that my piece is square. If it happens that your wood is not square you will end up with fitment issues, gaps at the extremities (tops and bottoms) of your butt joints and unhappy seems where they meet on a long run. To square the piece measure the diagonals and take the remainder and subtract it from the long side. This will sqaure 1 bottom edge to 1 outside edge, mark this edge and make all your cuts from this direction.

Also, bondo is your best friend


----------



## Wheres The Butta

BoostedNihilist said:


> let me guess, a little bit of overhang here and there?
> 
> If that is what it is it is a simple fix. If you added 1 1/2" (or 1" if you are using half mdf) to the dimensions to account for the wood this is where the error is. they sell it as 3/4 and 1/2 but it is actually a bit smaller...enough to cause some aggrevation. Next time just measure the depth of the material and use that measurement.
> 
> Also, 4x8 sheets aren't always square. I always check with my square and then measure the diagonals to make sure that my piece is square. If it happens that your wood is not square you will end up with fitment issues, gaps at the extremities (tops and bottoms) of your butt joints and unhappy seems where they meet on a long run. To square the piece measure the diagonals and take the remainder and subtract it from the long side. This will sqaure 1 bottom edge to 1 outside edge, mark this edge and make all your cuts from this direction.
> 
> Also, bondo is your best friend


I'll be a son of a gun. You're right, I didn't even think to measure the thickness of the MDF - I just trusted that 3/4" was accurate lol. That's the exact problem I've been having and I was wondering why. Oh boy.


----------



## briansz

I'm not sure about the MDF that you buy at Home Depot, but what we get from Sierra Pine pulls 19.05 millimeters with thickness variations of thousandths of an inch. It's 3/4" for all practical purposes, unit after unit, to the tune of tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of it per year. Sometimes we go through multiple units (42 sheets) _per day_. Spec sheet calls out +- .005" tolerance.

Imported products, yes there is variation, I've measured it myself. A $10 digital caliper from Harbor Freight is a wonderful thing.

One idea that always helped me with box building was to cut parts in a particular order so that all the cuts of any one dimension are made with a single setting of the fence. It takes a little thought to do your trim cuts and squaring cuts and then cut the panels in order from largest to smallest, but it mostly eliminates uneven assemblies. Might want to make sure your blade is running at a true 90 degrees to the table also. You could be off a fraction of a degree, giving you short points and long points that you didn't expect as the panels are flipped around and cut.

And if that still doesn't get rid of the uneven edges, well, that's what a router and a flush trimming bit are for.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

briansz said:


> I'm not sure about the MDF that you buy at Home Depot, but what we get from Sierra Pine pulls 19.05 millimeters with thickness variations of thousandths of an inch. It's 3/4" for all practical purposes, unit after unit, to the tune of tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of it per year. Sometimes we go through multiple units (42 sheets) _per day_. Spec sheet calls out +- .005" tolerance.
> 
> Imported products, yes there is variation, I've measured it myself. A $10 digital caliper from Harbor Freight is a wonderful thing.


Man, sometimes I don't even know where to start... This stuff can get so complicated so easily :worried:



briansz said:


> *One idea that always helped me with box building was to cut parts in a particular order so that all the cuts of any one dimension are made with a single setting of the fence. It takes a little thought to do your trim cuts and squaring cuts and then cut the panels in order from largest to smallest, but it mostly eliminates uneven assemblies. *Might want to make sure your blade is running at a true 90 degrees to the table also. You could be off a fraction of a degree, giving you short points and long points that you didn't expect as the panels are flipped around and cut.
> 
> And if that still doesn't get rid of the uneven edges, well, that's what a router and a flush trimming bit are for.


I actually had the presence of mind to do this, which astonishes me haha. So yeah, all my cuts are accurate in terms of height, but many of them are off by about 0.1 inch length and I am guessing it's due to variation in thickness, since that's the one area that I did not measure.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

wow, I just realized how miserably cranky I was lol.... I'd like to publicly appologize. I've been a total bear lately because of nicotine withdrawal. I've been feeling a whole lot of unsolicited anger. Not that it excuses me, but it helps explain.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

back to the project at hand. I can't figure out how to get the paint to look good. I've painted the box and sanded the paint back off in disgust twice. Either I'm doing something wrong, or the quality of paint that's available in a rattle can over at the hardware megastores is pretty low. 

I sanded, then used primer (valspar brand), then sanded, then hit it with primer again, then used gloss white from valspar. After that I used krylon clear coat, and it ends up looking like crap every single time - the color never looks even - not even on ONE single side of the damn cabinet... and at some points it looks like it cracked.... WTF.


----------



## Austin

Try to find an inexpensive spray gun and use that, or roll it on with a foam roller.

Harbor Freight Tools


----------



## briansz

It's kind of funny you mention this, as I am currently stripping my pickup truck to bare metal and painting it.

I'm using an acrylic lacquer - 'Restoration Shop Hot Rod Red' from TCP Global online, because I am shooting it a panel at a time in a tent on the patio. There are a lot of other reasons I'm using it that are probably a little beyond the scope of this dicussion, at least for now.

In any case, I've learned a lot about paint technology, body work, welding, wet sanding and buffing in the last 90 days.

I can say that the only finish you'll get in a rattle can that doesn't suck is something like I am using put into a rattle can by a professional auto body or paint store. They can do this for you. You need a good primer, the more solids the better on MDF, and then something like an acrylic lacquer or a single step urethane. You will not, let me repeat, not find this at Home Depot, Lowes, Wally World, Autozone, Checker, etc.

Check your area for a professional auto body or paint supply. Don't even bother with the Krylon. First off, I'ld bet that the Krylon clear is not compatible with the Valspar base and is eating it (the cracking).


----------



## Wheres The Butta

briansz said:


> It's kind of funny you mention this, as I am currently stripping my pickup truck to bare metal and painting it.
> 
> I'm using an acrylic lacquer - 'Restoration Shop Hot Rod Red' from TCP Global online, because I am shooting it a panel at a time in a tent on the patio. There are a lot of other reasons I'm using it that are probably a little beyond the scope of this dicussion, at least for now.
> 
> In any case, I've learned a lot about paint technology, body work, welding, wet sanding and buffing in the last 90 days.
> 
> I can say that the only finish you'll get in a rattle can that doesn't suck is something like I am using put into a rattle can by a professional auto body or paint store. They can do this for you. You need a good primer, the more solids the better on MDF, and then something like an acrylic lacquer or a single step urethane. You will not, let me repeat, not find this at Home Depot, Lowes, Wally World, Autozone, Checker, etc.
> 
> Check your area for a professional auto body or paint supply. Don't even bother with the Krylon. First off, I'ld bet that the Krylon clear is not compatible with the Valspar base and is eating it (the cracking).


son of a *****  you just managed to simultaneously make me very happy and very sad. 

Now I know what my problem is, but it also means I've gotta spend more money  

I appreciate the advice. I'll be talking to a body shop over the next week to get this ironed out. Let me know how your project goes, best of luck with it man


----------



## briansz

What you really need to know is where the auto body shops buy their paint and supplies. They are the folks that will be able to charge up a rattle can with real paint for you.

It might be $12-$15 for a rattle can of the good stuff and that much again for a can of lacquer primer, but it beats buying a compressor, air hoses, spray gun, moisture trap, regulator, an inline filter, strainers, etc. If you're lucky you'll get used/Harbor Freight stuff as listed above for maybe $200-$250. Since I chose to buy the uber-compressor and a used name brand gun (Iwata) I'm in for about four times that.

I started buying tools for this project back in the tail end of May and I'm hoping to have all the paint shot and the body of the truck back together by the end of September. It's kind of taken over my free time. I've spent more in tools than the value of the truck, I think. But this truck has never looked anything like it does now in the 13 years I've owned it, quite an improvement.

Seek out the real auto paints and you will have much better results. Even Checker has some overpriced quarts of Duplicolor auto lacquer in a few colors (about $22 a quart, pre-thinned), and NAPA has a 'Jenny Can' refillable spray can for $6. Think you need a compressor to pressurize it, however.

Failing all of the above, as someone else mentioned you could foam-roller Rustoleum in many thin coats and then try to wet sand it. I found that when you break the skin of the Rustoleum by sanding it's kind of gummy, did some test panels with it and ruled it out for the truck even though it was about 30% of the cost of the auto paint. The lacquer is nothing like a modern 2-part urethane auto paint, but it's loads better than an alkyd enamel (Rustoleum and most rattle can paints). It won't kill you as quickly as the 2-part stuff either.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

I have had good luck with everything from tremclad to duplicolor engine paints.. The trick is in the sanding.

Shoot your primer and sand it.. with at least 200 grit This will take about three coats before you can think about painting.. 

Shoot a LIGHT coat on first, so light you can clearly see the primer. Let this dry, then shoot another coat, then sand this coat with your at least 200 grit sandpaper (220 and up works really nice at this point.)

Then layer and sand, layer and sand and eventually you will come up with a flat layer that suits your expectations. Painting MDF nicely is quite the process if you want to have a nice flat application.

What gets most people is the time between coats. You gotta sand each coat so this means you have to let it sit. I always push it and start after it is dry to the touch but really you should wait at least six hours for it to harden a bit. If you don't wait you will find that the paint will stick to the sandpaper and cause grooves in your finish.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

BoostedNihilist said:


> I have had good luck with everything from tremclad to duplicolor engine paints.. The trick is in the sanding.
> 
> Shoot your primer and sand it.. with at least 200 grit This will take about three coats before you can think about painting..
> 
> Shoot a LIGHT coat on first, so light you can clearly see the primer. Let this dry, then shoot another coat, then sand this coat with your at least 200 grit sandpaper (220 and up works really nice at this point.)
> 
> Then layer and sand, layer and sand and eventually you will come up with a flat layer that suits your expectations. Painting MDF nicely is quite the process if you want to have a nice flat application.
> 
> What gets most people is the time between coats. You gotta sand each coat so this means you have to let it sit. I always push it and start after it is dry to the touch but really you should wait at least six hours for it to harden a bit. If you don't wait you will find that the paint will stick to the sandpaper and cause grooves in your finish.


I rushed it too  that might have had something to do with it


----------



## briansz

I agree, you can make Rustoleum work. I was shooting it reduced 30/70 with xylene on my test panel. It does take awhile to dry but the xylene helps. It does wet-sand and polish OK. 

The single-step acrylic lacquer I'm using is ready to handle in an hour and ready to wet sand after 24 hours. The thing that sold me on spending 3-4 times as much for it than I would have on Rustoleum is that I can coat the lacquer with other auto paint in the future after I scuff sand it. Any auto paint will eat Rustoleum almost like stripper. Think this is what happened when you shot the clearcoat (probably a lacquer) over the Valspar paint (probably an alkyd enamel). I figured I didn't ever want to strip the truck again, so I did the lacquer at a much greater cost. 

I also noticed there is a good deal of difference in the sanding characteristics of the rustoleum or enamel paints and the lacquer primer and paint. If I shoot two coats of the 'Old-School Lacquer Speed Prime' ten minutes apart and wait 6 hours, I can sand it with 220-grit and 320-grit dry and it makes only dust. If I go sand some of the rattle-can black enamel on the truck bed with the same paper (put the paint on there 3 months ago) it makes little balls of finish on the sanding block and the scratches mentioned by BoostedNihilist.

Your best bet might be to Google/read up on this and practice on some scrap MDF. Here's an article about doing cheap paint jobs with a roller and a single-stage urethane boat paint called 'Brightside'. I'd strongly considered Brightside for the truck but it actually cost more than the automotive acrylic lacquer since it only thins 10% and the lacquer thins 50/50.

moparts: New Paint job on a budget thread Part III

BoostedNihilist is dead-on right about the sanding and the waiting. You'll find also that as you start to get better results that your expectations go up and you'll start chasing a 'perfect' finish.  When I started painting the truck, I'd have been OK with all the panels being one color. Now I'm wetsanding and polishing to as close to perfect as I'm able to produce..........

You might also look into a quality spot putty like Sikkens Kombi Putty to fill the porous edges of the MDF before and/or after you prime. It's single stage product (no mixing) and dries in about 30 minutes. Prepare for the cost and effort to find somebody that will sell it to you. And yes, it's worth it, the stuff at Walmart isn't even close.

We sure are spending some $$ for you here


----------



## briansz

Here are my before and after on the hood. MDF is mostly the same process.



















Something else that might be able to save you a little cash is to check into a product like ML Campbell Magnalac - or any pre-catalyzed lacquer designed for woodworking use. I think it's around $40 a gallon, which is a lot cheaper than automotive paint. It can be tinted; I used black Magnalac on a pair of ash veneer speaker cabinets with good results. You'd need a sanding sealer in place of the primer required by the auto body paint. Check with the paint store to see what can be used. Both of these products can be sprayed out of the Jenny Can I mentioned earlier (found at NAPA).

Let us know how things progress.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

oh boy. I think I got into this way over my head. I had no idea painting was that tough! I thought it would be easier than covering lol....

Oh well, what's another new amateur skill to add to the list, right? Already learning woodworking and cabinet building....

/facepalm I think I'm gonna finish my car before I finish these speakers - I don't have enough time/energy to devote to both at the same time. This build is officially on hold for a couple weeks.

Thanks to everyone for helping me, I'll resurrect this thread when I've got the proper time to devote to it.


----------

