# 2011 Dodge Ram Club Cab Install



## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

So, figured I may as well start my build thread, although I'm about 50% installed already.

The equipment:

Head unit: I am keeping the factory head unit (730N, RHR). Why? A few reasons.
#1 is the supposed performance of the JBL MS8 in factory head unit installations. I haven't heard a bad thing about them yet.
#2 Cost. Ideally, an aftermarket HU & MS8 would be the way to go...unfortunately to get the options I like on the factory HU (bluetooth, wireless streaming, nav, steering wheel controls, etc etc) it would run me over a grand, on top of the MS8. I just can't afford to do it. I should also note that I have added the lockpick, for multiple camera inputs and DVD in motion.
#3 Appearance. My install will be completely stealth.

Processor/LOC/Equalizer: JBL MS8 Why?

#1. From what I've read, it's by far the best option when retaining the factory HU. No noise issues, etc that plague some of the other brands, at least from what I've read.
#2. Flexibility. This thing has 8 output channels, each with its own customizable crossover. It also has an internal amplifier (20WX8 RMS) if you chose to go that way.
#3. I don't know how to tune a vehicle for sound quality. The MS8 does it for me. As long as I do a proper install, and choose good equipment I'm hoping it gives me great sound quality.

Next....Speakers...


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## pjc (May 3, 2009)

Love the user name... those were some funny movies. Lookin forward to the build log. I love truck builds.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

pjc said:


> Love the user name... those were some funny movies. Lookin forward to the build log. I love truck builds.


 He was a funny guy, Mr. Nielsen. RIP

*Front Speakers *
I stressed over this decision for weeks. Unfortunately for me, I don't have the time/proximity to shops to give all the brands I wanted to test out a proper listen. I actually really like the sound that the factory system puts out, I just wanted to make it clearer, louder, and more dynamic.

I had toyed with the idea of a three ways system to bring as much midbass up into the dash as I could, however, I wasn't in love with the idea of having the tweeters exposed, and the price was getting up there.

What I ended up going with: *XR Duo from Audible physics*. It is a 6.5"/3" driver set.

Why I chose it: I was inspired by this thread, and the results.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...d-2010-dodge-ram-regular-cab-sq-installl.html

*Bing and crew - I will be using a lot of your ideas from that thread. I am in no way trying to pass these ideas off as my own.*

I also loved the idea of going tweeterless. I got a great (IMO) price, (thanks Mark!) which also helped in the decision. These will be crossed over by the MS8, I'm thinking ~300hz crossover point @ 24 db.

*Rear Fill*

Originally I wasn't going to replace the rear door speakers, I was just going to feed them off the MS8 internal amp. I decided to do an amplified rear fill when I started reading more about the "Logic 7" surround sound from the MS8, and how it kinda needed equal power levels to all speakers. I'm not a fan of listening to music in surround sound, but apparently this Logic 7 sounds good. Also the CK6 Midbass won't hurt either.

What I chose - *Massive Audio CK6*

Why? Value/Price. Good set of speakers, bought used for less than $150. (Thanks Vitty)


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Amps: Mounting the amps behind the rear seat. A little info on how to gain access to your rear wall on the Gen 4's without having to raise or remove the sea

1. Remove the seat. Each side is held down by 4 - 18mm head bolts. I used a breaker bar then a Ratchet.










2. When you fold the seat down, you'll see the clips. I don't have a clear pic of one before cutting. I would recommend using a hacksaw and taping the plastic guide to the metal so it doesn't break like it did on me. If you look closely at the plastic guide, you'll see two ridges. I cut the metal right in line with the second (lower) ridge. This was the perfect length. Cut longer the first time if you're not sure.










3. Reinstall the seat with the back folded down, test it out.





Heres a pic of the seat folded down, in the locked position. You can see how much of the latch is still engaged. That's why I say no worries about safety.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Amps

I had space to spare, and I wanted good, cheap, clean power. All amps were bought used either through ebay, or through various car audio forums.

I chose:
*
Massive NX2 *(120WX2 RMS) for the front 3" drivers. (Thanks Mike Troll)
*Massive Audio HD1600.4* (160WX4 RMS) for the Front Door drivers and the rear components. (Thanks BanHammer)

Why Massive? Good, cheap clean power! I was also dying to try out those tiny nano amps.

And for the sub channel, I picked up an older *JL 500/1 *(v1) off ebay for an unbeatable price. I had to have a JL piece in there somewhere... 

I still need to run the RBC for the JL, and the set screw for the remote wire is stripped. I have the easyout, I just need to get around to doing it.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Subwoofer and Enclosure.

I actually use the 1/3rd seat under seating storage area for booster cables, tie downs, etc. It was very hard to find a box that replaced the 2/3rd seat only. Foxbox had one but you have to raise the seat. I decided to try my hand at fiberglassing.

Subwoofer I chose was a *12" Image Dynamics IDQ V3* Dual 4 ohm I figure there is around 1.0-1.25 ft3 of cubic feet in the fiberglass enclosure and the ID seemed like a good pick for sound quality.

Finally, here are some build pics.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Sub box

Some info on this box: The baffle is made of 2 pieces of 3/4" MDF stacked on top of eachother. This is the maximum thickness that you can have due to the height. It rubs a little bit when folding the seat up and down, near the rear of the box. I also don't think you want your sub any closer to the bottom of the seat than that.

As far as fitting a 12" in there, I had no issues with the IDQ depth wise, but there is very little play with respect to front to back movement, it kind of looks awkward sitting so close to the front, but there is literally like 1/2" of play in that direction.

I need to buy a grille, for two reasons:

1. Protection in the case of groceries, etc. being stacked on top of the speaker.
2. To keep the sub from hitting the bottom of the seat and creating unwanted noise....the bottom of the seat is very flexible and I'm sure the grille will give enough room for subwoofer excursion.


Pics:

Cardboard template










Dual layer of masking tape (I sprayed with Pam, it still pulled up a lot of tape when I removed the enclosure)









First coat of glass done. I had a bit of a learning curve using glass, trying to keep the bubbles/mesh down and flat. You can see I was a little sloppy after the first coat.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Finished box pics:

So I didn't take any "in progress" pics, I put down 4 layers of glass and then filled the box with 1 bag (1 lb, I think? of poly fill.)

Here's how it looks:


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

2 ga wire run from the battery to the rear cabin wall:

Knukoncepts terminals were used, big 3 upgrade to come in the near future.










Main fuse holder attached with industrial velcro to the fuse box cover.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Looks like you're off to a flying start...nice job

What did you mean by JL500/1 (pre slash)


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

trojan fan said:


> Looks like you're off to a flying start...nice job
> 
> What did you mean by JL500/1 (pre slash)


Thanks dude.
I guess I was mistaken, this is a slash amp, just not a v2 slash.

I was going off sonicelectronix page here:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_1173_JL-Audio-500-1.html


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Great work on the enclosure. Lookin' good so far.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Chaos said:


> Great work on the enclosure. Lookin' good so far.


Thanks.

Ground wire. Ran it through the subfloor and attached to the frame.

I drilled a hole right beside the rear outside seat hold down bolt, and there was a very short run to the frame. I used a #12X1.5" metal screw to hold it in.




























Sprayed with bedliner/undercoat:










View of it coming up through the sub floor to the dist. block. You can see what I was going to use as a ground location before...I think the frame ground is better? There is a tiny grommet in the subfloor, I will seal up with a bit of clear silicone.


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## Kellyo77 (Dec 5, 2009)

Well done Frank!

I love the screen name! Man was a pioneer in comedic acting.


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## EazyM3 (Sep 15, 2006)

Nice clean work.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

^^^

Thanks guys.

Did a little fabricating the other day. I suppose I should mention where I am at, at this current time.

Where I'm currently at:

Amps/rack are installed. The MS8 that I recieved did not work properly from the factory. On initial testing I experienced the following issues:


Power stayed on all the time, even with remote wire disconnected
While troubleshooting above issue, power light stayed on when ground was disconnected. Unit was being grounded through mounting screws?
REM out from MS8 sent amps into protection? Normal acc wire and amps ran fine
 No display on screen

So that fukkers back to the manufacturer for repair/exchange. Until I get that back I have no sound.

Waiting on the XR Duo Drivers as well. Long story but I was going to run the CK6's in the front until I recieved the XR's, now with the MS8 out of commission I have left the CK6 midbass in the front doors. Once the XR's arrive I will install all speakers in their proper place.

Sub box complete. Test ran off the 500/1 with a schochse LOC from Walmart. Sounds good. Too much for the factory system.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Baffles. 

Like I mentioned in the above post, I was going to use the CK6's in the front doors until I got shipment of the XR Duo's. I had made some baffles out of 1/2" MDF but I decided to use 1/8" hardboard instead. I just felt that the speakers were waay too close to the door grille with 1/2". Add that I want to mount the CK6 braxially and I don't have enough clearance. 

Here's the former baffles I used with the CK6 in the door. (tweeters didn't fit in the tweeter hole, sealed with dynamat extreme.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Here's some build pics of the new baffles:

Jasper circle jig. Do I need one? YES I DO.










Holes cut and outlines traced out:



















Sanded and ready for paint










Painted black so I don't see them through the door grille. (nevermind the paint on the floor)


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Great job. I may try much the same with my Ram.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Good to see you both over here!!!


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

chithead said:


> Good to see you both over here!!!


A little more information on this site


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Might as well update the thread. Install has changed a bit, decided to add a center channel, different sub amp and second idq sub.

System diagram below:


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Some build pics of my second go around with fiberglass. I did a rough measurement with packing peanuts in the under seat cavity and came out to ~1.85ft3. Just perfect for a couple IDQ 12's. Maybe a little small but the polyfill should be able to help out there?










Clean workbench (to start!)




































I used a combination of mat and cloth, but still had issues with bubbling with the mat. It's plenty strong still, but it's a good thing the fiberglass is hidden!


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Haven't had a chance to install my XR duo's yet, can anybody comment if these are the regular or LE XR3M's?

Just arrived in the mail the other day:


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

So eventually the plan is to redo the amp rack, and all speaker wiring. Waiting on my order from Sonic which has the second IDQ and both Massive "D" amps. Should be in sometime next week, but who knows when I'll get around to installing it all.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Please don't wait too long....thanks for sharing


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

trojan fan said:


> Please don't wait too long....thanks for sharing


I'm hoping before xmas...hoping is the key word.


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## Dakota548ci (Jan 5, 2008)

The Ram is looking good. Thinking about picking up one the Laramie 2011 models. I love the heated steering wheel 

Shane


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## myhikingboots (Oct 28, 2010)

Wow, really diggin' your build. I have a '09 that I've been slowly working on. Lacking funds right now to really get going. I'm most interested in how the 3 xrs workout with the MS-8. The 3" xrs are on my short list, but I've decided to go with ID 6x9's in the front doors which I just got today!


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## myhikingboots (Oct 28, 2010)

Dakota548ci said:


> The Ram is looking good. Thinking about picking up one the Laramie 2011 models. I love the heated steering wheel
> 
> Shane


You won't be disapointed! Love my Ram. Smoothest ride of any full size truck, and fast!


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## Blorton (Aug 7, 2011)

Subscribing. I've been thinking of doing the same thing with my 2011 Ram 1500 Express - keeping the stock HU and putting nice bits out of sight. ...but that sweet Pioneer HU is really calling to me. 

Thanks for sharing your build. Great ideas in here.


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## Dieselhed (Jan 1, 2011)

This build is inspiring me as well. Just picked up a 2011 CCSB 2500 Diesel. Anyone know if 8" midbass will work in the front doors? The JL Audio in particular.


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## Blorton (Aug 7, 2011)

Dieselhed said:


> This build is inspiring me as well. Just picked up a 2011 CCSB 2500 Diesel. Anyone know if 8" midbass will work in the front doors? The JL Audio in particular.


The stock depth allowance in the doors is supposed to be 2.75". You'd need a spacer for that JL. I'm actually thinking of putting 8's in mine and will post up a build thread when the time comes.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Blorton said:


> The stock depth allowance in the doors is supposed to be 2.75". You'd need a spacer for that JL. I'm actually thinking of putting 8's in mine and will post up a build thread when the time comes.


Here's a look inside the door










I would not go more than 1/2" spacer from the door plate to the speaker, the interior door skin/speaker grill gets awfully close.

I do believe a Dayton RS180 can fit in there though...


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## Dieselhed (Jan 1, 2011)

Thanks for the info guys. I talked to a local shop last night and one of the installers told me he installed a set of the JL ZR800's in a 2012 last week. He used a 1/4" spacer and it fit perfect. I didn't even ask how it sounded and he said it was very impressive.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Dieselhed said:


> Thanks for the info guys. I talked to a local shop last night and one of the installers told me he installed a set of the JL ZR800's in a 2012 last week. He used a 1/4" spacer and it fit perfect. I didn't even ask how it sounded and he said it was very impressive.


I'm sure it would be. I used 1/4" hardboard as well. I kind of wish I had went with larger drivers in the door, but I was afraid of depth issues.


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## dndgib (Nov 21, 2011)

I am about to start the same process in my 2010 Ram Crew. Can't wait to see how this turns out! Thanks for the great info so far!


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Frank Drebin said:


> Haven't had a chance to install my XR duo's yet, can anybody comment if these are the regular or LE XR3M's?


Those appear to be the LE's (Ironwood phase plug) - they appear to be a lighter shade than my rosewoods.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I got a good question through pm that I was asked to share here. 

If wanting to add tweeters just to pick up from 8k and above - to add that touch of 'air' or 'sparkle'.....this should be done actively if possible. Looking at your (excellent) build diagram, you have amps running the 3's, 6.5's, and subs. You mentioned that you don't have any available channels to run the tweets. Is there still an opportunity to run the tweets off of the MS-8 speaker outs? I'm showing my ignorance about the MS-8 - but I'm pretty sure I have seen guys run amps off the rcas as well as utilizing the internal amplifier to run tweeters. If not......I would personally utilize the channels running the rear fill and put that on tweets to get the front stage set....probably not congruent with your goals.

In terms of install friendly tweets to do 8k and up - lots of choices - and inexpensive. For that frequency range - many of the DIY tweets out there will do very well. I asked a friend to give me some ideas of tweets he has used or researched (below).

Vifa Dome

I had a set of these that I ended up putting into a customer's car- they did very well (I think these are what Chad is now using)
Vifa midsize RR
And one set of the following; but haven't really played much with them
Dayton 5/8"
Vifa dome with small wave guide
Vifa big RR

These are what's in the BMW
Dayton NEO
And these are going in next
Tiny Vifa RR[/QUOTE]

I think you could mount most if not all of these mid pillar (as in the photo you sent me) or even at the base of the pillar firing across - could be completely stealth if you mold them into the pillar with speaker cloth covering them.


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## myhikingboots (Oct 28, 2010)

I'm pretty sure that I read the manual that if you use the MS-8 preouts then you can not use the internal amp for that channel. So if you were to use all 8 preouts then you would not be able to use the internal amp. I could be wrong.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

myhikingboots said:


> I'm pretty sure that I read the manual that if you use the MS-8 preouts then you can not use the internal amp for that channel. So if you were to use all 8 preouts then you would not be able to use the internal amp. I could be wrong.


No, you're right.

What I could do is run the rear channels off the MS8 (or amplify with another amp), run MS8 channels 1 & 2 to an active crossover which would go into 4 channels of amplification.

The MS8 would recognize the actively run XR3M's and tweeters as "one" speaker

CH1 - L Dsh mid and tweet *CH 1 & 2 D8004*
CH2 - R Dsh mid and tweet *CH 3 & 4 D8004*
Ch3 - Center *CH 1 HD1600*
Ch 4 - L Mid woofer *CH2 HD1600*
Ch 5 - R midwoofer* CH 3 HD1600*
Ch 6 - Left rear* MS8/NX2*
Ch 7 - Right Rear* MS8/NX2*
Ch 8 - sub - *D3600*


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

bertholomey said:


> I got a good question through pm that I was asked to share here.
> 
> If wanting to add tweeters just to pick up from 8k and above - to add that touch of 'air' or 'sparkle'.....this should be done actively if possible. Looking at your (excellent) build diagram, you have amps running the 3's, 6.5's, and subs. You mentioned that you don't have any available channels to run the tweets. Is there still an opportunity to run the tweets off of the MS-8 speaker outs? I'm showing my ignorance about the MS-8 - but I'm pretty sure I have seen guys run amps off the rcas as well as utilizing the internal amplifier to run tweeters. If not......I would personally utilize the channels running the rear fill and put that on tweets to get the front stage set....probably not congruent with your goals.
> 
> ...


I think you could mount most if not all of these mid pillar (as in the photo you sent me) or even at the base of the pillar firing across - could be completely stealth if you mold them into the pillar with speaker cloth covering them.[/QUOTE]

Thanks a lot. I will have to do some reading and decide on placement. If I add the NX2 back in the mix I actually have enough channels to go active on all 3 dash speakers.


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## Dieselhed (Jan 1, 2011)

How much of a pain was it to integrate the MS-8 into the stock head unit. I was dead set on replacing the RBZ 430 stocker I have but surprizingly I really like the features it has. How much of a difference did it make in SQ as I think the stock system sounds horrible. I'd hate to get the MS-8 and be disappointed with the way it manipulates the stock signal. Especially the HDD which I really like but it sounds terrible.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Dieselhed said:


> How much of a pain was it to integrate the MS-8 into the stock head unit. I was dead set on replacing the RBZ 430 stocker I have but surprizingly I really like the features it has. How much of a difference did it make in SQ as I think the stock system sounds horrible. I'd hate to get the MS-8 and be disappointed with the way it manipulates the stock signal. Especially the HDD which I really like but it sounds terrible.


I can't imagine using anything else but the MS8. I love the factory HU, I don't know of an (aftermarket) HU that can do everthing that the RHR does. Probably my favorite feature is the Nav display on the instrument panel that shows turns coming up in 300, 250, 200 meters etc.

I spliced/soldered into the amp outlet. You need to take a signal from the front dash, front doors and the sub. If I had the chance to do it over again from scratch, I would have run MS8 "feed" wires to the stock speaker locations, and grabbed some of these:










Chrysler Wire Harness speakers, 2 pin square
and plugged them into the factory feeds. No cutting of wires, at all.

The MS8 is a fantastic unit for everyone, but it is especially great for someone who is learning about car audio. All you need to know is the frequency range that your speakers need to play in.


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Frank Drebin said:


> I spliced/soldered into the amp outlet. You need to take a signal from the front dash, front doors and the sub. If I had the chance to do it over again from scratch, I would have run MS8 "feed" wires to the stock speaker locations, and grabbed some of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, but like we discussed, you'd have yet another set of wires to feed through those door Molexes, which are complete biatches to deal with. As you know I followed the lead of another and went the PAC route. I sure hope it doesn't detract from SQ. Not really sure how I'll know.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

mtnbkr said:


> Yeah, but like we discussed, you'd have yet another set of wires to feed through those door Molexes, which are complete biatches to deal with. As you know I followed the lead of another and went the PAC route. I sure hope it doesn't detract one bit from SQ.


I've conceded the fact that Andy is a genius, and if I do everything he says, my MS8 system will sound as good as it possibly can. The molex's are a biatch for sure, but I think you used some pretty fat 16 ga wire? Anyways, with car audio if there's a will theres a way.

I think you'll be ok with the PAC, but here's a recent post from Andy:



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Sounds like a couple of problems--bad connection somewhere on the tweeters. Could be a bad LOC, bad RCA cable or a grounded speaker wire. That will cause noise and if the grounded wire is intermittent, the noise will be intermittent.
> 
> Unless you hve something strange going on, he LOC isn't necessary. In fact, the connection between your head unit and the MS-8 will be noise free if you eliminate the LOC. No chance of a ground loop if there's no connection to ground, and that's exactly what the speaker level output and input provide, in addition to higher input voltage, which helps to eliminate radiated noise.



What are you doing on the internet??? Shouldn't you be working on your build today


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

I guess I can add some pics and update my status here.

Install pics of the XR3M's





































Sadly, I don't think I can use these beautiful speakers in my build. I miss tweeters. I think I will be going to a traditional 2 way set in the doors, with the XR6.5M's in the lower doors and the tweeters (to be determined) in the sail panels crossed over as high as I can. I'm thinking of possibly doing a 3 way in the doors, with the XR6.5's running from 75-2500Hz, my Dayton RS75's running 2500-6000 and the tweeters running 6k+. I think I have room in the 6X9 opening for both the woofer and the midrange. Any thoughts on this setup is much appreciated.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Some pics of the sub box - I can't find the real camera so Iphone will have to do for now. Not a lot of listening time on the 2-12's but honestly I'm not blown away. Maybe they need more power? It seemed to hit harder with the single 12.


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## Loudy (Nov 10, 2010)

Stupid question, have you tried switching the phasing?


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Frank Drebin said:


> I've conceded the fact that Andy is a genius, and if I do everything he says, my MS8 system will sound as good as it possibly can. The molex's are a biatch for sure, but I think you used some pretty fat 16 ga wire? Anyways, with car audio if there's a will theres a way.
> 
> I think you'll be ok with the PAC, but here's a recent post from Andy:
> 
> ...


Haha. Yeah, I should be.

As for the ground loop, our friend had one and solved it with a ground loop isolator. It was $10 so I ordered one with the PAC LOC, anticipating a problem. The burning question with me is whether the addition of the LOC and GLI will detract from my SQ. If so, I'll be pretty PO'd. Otherwise, LOC > Molex headaches. Is there anything other than noise I will have to watch for? If I have any sense of SQ issues with the LOC, it's gone. I'll redo the MS-8 feeds, likley tapping in after the factory amp like you did. No more Molexes. I just finished my post-Molex therapy.

PS - that box looks sweet. Great job. Have you tried the XR6.5Ms yet?


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Loudy said:


> Stupid question, have you tried switching the phasing?


Phasing on the subs? Like switching polarity? No I haven't tried much yet.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

mtnbkr said:


> Have you tried the XR6.5Ms yet?


Hopefully today. We shall see.


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## Dieselhed (Jan 1, 2011)

Where did you mount your MS8 display?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Frank Drebin said:


> I guess I can add some pics and update my status here.
> 
> Install pics of the XR3M's
> 
> ...


I know you already have the XR6.5 but since you have an opening for a 6x9 driver and only crossing the driver down to around 75Hz, why not use an ID X69 for more cone area and efficiency? 
I'd actually sell the XR6.5 and keep the XR3M (and use a tweeter up top) but that's just me 

Kelvin


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> I know you already have the XR6.5 but since you have an opening for a 6x9 driver and only crossing the driver down to around 75Hz, why not use an ID X69 for more cone area and efficiency?
> *I'd actually sell the XR6.5 and keep the XR3M (and use a tweeter up top) but that's just me*
> 
> Kelvin


Would you? I wasn't sure how that would work out with the mid and tweet firing diagonally against each other (mids firing up to the windshield, tweets in the a pillars), so I figured my best idea would be to KISS, and go with a traditional 2 way.

The XR6.5's are BNIB, less the wires being soldered on. I'm sure I could sell them for $250-$275.

What are your thoughts on the Dayton RS180 in a 3 way? 7" woofer.

Image Dynamics X69 (X 69) 6" x 9" XS Mid-Bass Speaker Drivers

^Thats a little costly for me, unless I could find one used. Never heard of them before just now.

Dayton Audio RS180-4 7" Reference Woofer 4 Ohm 295-374 

I think the daytons would fit. Would it be better than the XR6.5's?


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Frank Drebin said:


> Image Dynamics X69 (X 69) 6" x 9" XS Mid-Bass Speaker Drivers
> 
> ^Thats a little costly for me, unless I could find one used. Never heard of them before just now.


Those look pretty beefy - they likely won't fit without huge headaches and major chopping of the inside panel. Or am I wrong on that? >3.5" top mount depth.

I had HUGE hopes for those XR Duos. That, and it seems as though I have been waiting a century for them. Everything has been on hold. Maybe I should be re-considering the speaker choice. God only knows when they are going to get here. 

So the widebanders just aren't cutting it for the highs eh?

I am not interested in getting into anything any more complicated than where I already am. That said, I have a small fortune invested in this build. Wow - those speakers were the last thing I would have thought of as being the weak link.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

mtnbkr said:


> Those look pretty beefy - they likely won't fit without huge headaches and major chopping of the inside panel. Or am I wrong on that? >3.5" top mount depth.


Yeah, never even noticed that. I think we can get away with 3" top mount with spacers on components, but a lot of guys who wanted to upgrade their door 6X9's ran into issues, because most 6X9's are a lot deeper than components.

So, uh...Kelvin, ya...thats why I didn't go with the ID 6X9's:surprised:


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Any comments on my edited post above? I am saddened to think I have been waiting this long for something that is not the second coming of Christ.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

mtnbkr said:


> Any comments on my edited post above? I am saddened to think I have been waiting this long for something that is not the total $hit.


I don't know if my amps are playing a role in the speakers, I'm sure they are. Not a fan of the NX2, any kind of gain on it and it hisses at me. I haven't noticed the same for the HD1600. The highs are OK, I would just like a little more sparkle.

I'm tossing the idea around of selling the Massives and getting a nice 6 channel zed or zuki.


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Frank Drebin said:


> I don't know if my amps are playing a role in the speakers, I'm sure they are. Not a fan of the NX2, any kind of gain on it and it hisses at me. I haven't noticed the same for the HD1600. The highs are OK, I would just like a little more sparkle.
> 
> I'm tossing the idea around of selling the Massives and getting a nice 6 channel zed or zuki.


Your build sure has evolved. I think you may be rivalling some local shops in terms of turnover.

I take it that you haven't been rebuilding amp boards as you go.

I'm not going to panic quite yet. I will continue waiting for the XR Duos and try them out with the HDs. Hopefully I'll be happy with them.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

mtnbkr said:


> Your build sure has evolved. I think you may be rivalling some local shops in terms of turnover.


it is a sickness


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Frank Drebin said:


> Would you? I wasn't sure how that would work out with the mid and tweet firing diagonally against each other (mids firing up to the windshield, tweets in the a pillars), so I figured my best idea would be to KISS, and go with a traditional 2 way.
> I don't think that should be a problem. Advantage of a widebander is if there's no obstruction in the sound path (like kick panels or A-pillars) and usually 30° or less is better.
> The way you have your XR3M, it reflects off the windshield which could have some destructive interference and creating phase issues up top. Adding a tweeter, even in the A-pillars, should add the sparkle you're looking for. Sound doesn't mess with each other if the tweeter fires into the midrange path
> 
> ...


How much power do you have available for the midbass? Coz the X69 can handle up to 300 watts and reward you with monstrous midbass: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1254494-post4.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1288413-post6.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1260472-post7.html 
Since you're only using it down to 75Hz, the extra 4dB of sensitivity from the X69 might actually get you way more midbass than the dayton. 

Kelvin


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## myhikingboots (Oct 28, 2010)

subwoofery said:


> How much power do you have available for the midbass? Coz the X69 can handle up to 300 watts and reward you with monstrous midbass:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1288413-post6.html
> Since you're only using it down to 75Hz, the extra 4dB of sensitivity from the X69 might actually get you way more midbass than the dayton.
> ...


I just got the x69s a few weeks ago, but haven't installed yet. Waiting on sound deadener to arrive. I'll post some shots after I shoe horn them into the Ram.

Chuck


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Frank Drebin said:


> I don't know if my amps are playing a role in the speakers, I'm sure they are. Not a fan of the NX2, any kind of gain on it and it hisses at me. I haven't noticed the same for the HD1600. The highs are OK, I would just like a little more sparkle.
> 
> I'm tossing the idea around of selling the Massives and getting a nice 6 channel zed or zuki.


As said in my previous post, mid location is why you miss the sparkle. Changing amps won't help you get more sparkle. 

Kelvin


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> How much power do you have available for the midbass? Coz the X69 can handle up to 300 watts and reward you with monstrous midbass:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1254494-post4.html
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1288413-post6.html
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1260472-post7.html
> ...


The ID's wont work. Too deep for the doors. And looking into the Daytons with a FR of 20-2200Hz they would have to be used in a 3 way setup, right?


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

myhikingboots said:


> I just got the x69s a few weeks ago, but haven't installed yet. Waiting on sound deadener to arrive. I'll post some shots after I shoe horn them into the Ram.
> 
> Chuck


I'd like to see that for sure. Are you planning on using a spacer?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Frank Drebin said:


> The ID's wont work. Too deep for the doors. And looking into the Daytons with a FR of 20-2200Hz they would have to be used in a 3 way setup, right?


You can use it in a 2-way but you need the tweeter by the mid IM*O* - especially crossing over 2kHz: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ed/94289-tweeters-crossed-no-lower-4-khz.html 

Make your own decision based on that thread  

Kelvin


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## myhikingboots (Oct 28, 2010)

Frank Drebin said:


> I'd like to see that for sure. Are you planning on using a spacer?


Yes sir.


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## SfTrainer (Sep 6, 2010)

Hey frank,
So more sparkle huh? I can't speak to your specific set up as mine is a bit different...but I will add a couple of things I've heard. 1. The ms8 is not ideally suited to the xrm3's...they don't love the auto tune feature. 2. No one who has listened to my set up has ever had any negative comments about a lack of sparkle or high end, I actually had a judge in the state finals comment that If he had to nitpick he would say some of the highs were a bit to high or harsh. 3. The stock ram headunit is great and full of lots of great features...but from a pure sound quality standpoint it leaves a lot to be desired. Thanks for the kind words about my install and good luck with the rest of your build.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

SfTrainer said:


> Hey frank,
> So more sparkle huh? I can't speak to your specific set up as mine is a bit different...but I will add a couple of things I've heard. 1. The ms8 is not ideally suited to the xrm3's...they don't love the auto tune feature. 2. No one who has listened to my set up has ever had any negative comments about a lack of sparkle or high end, I actually had a judge in the state finals comment that If he had to nitpick he would say some of the highs were a bit to high or harsh. 3. The stock ram headunit is great and full of lots of great features...but from a pure sound quality standpoint it leaves a lot to be desired. Thanks for the kind words about my install and good luck with the rest of your build.


The MS-8 is looking for dispersion when tuning. Any widebander will have a very narrow dispersion above about 8kHz which will mess the auto-tuning... 
Polar response is why Andy Wehmeyer doesn't believe in widebanders. 

Kelvin


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Well... my $0. 02.... 

1) XR's in the top of the dash playing to about 6k, inexpensive tweets in the sails. IMO this will produce the best sound. 

I would agree that asking any wideband driver to play up to 20k playing off the windshield and providing that sparkle would be a challenge... Even for the XR'S. That top of the dash location is very desirable, and many guys have been very successful (Todd-highly). 

In my opinion....the above setup has so much more potential for sounding great compared to the plan proposed of placing mid range drivers in the doors. 

Mtnbkr.... The XR Duo set is a phenomenal set of drivers, and I hope you get yours soon and enjoy them. 

2) I would certainly run the XR6. 5's over 6x9's.... I have heard the 6.5's in several vehicles, and I was extremely impressed. 

I know there a lot of competing forces here.... sell new versus slightly used...... basing driver choice / placement based on a processor that you might end up selling when the Mosconi or ARC piece comes out.... stealth versus having drivers displayed... But I would throw some tweets in the sails before I would ditch the XR's.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

SfTrainer said:


> Hey frank,
> So more sparkle huh? I can't speak to your specific set up as mine is a bit different...but I will add a couple of things I've heard. 1. The ms8 is not ideally suited to the xrm3's...they don't love the auto tune feature. 2. No one who has listened to my set up has ever had any negative comments about a lack of sparkle or high end, I actually had a judge in the state finals comment that If he had to nitpick he would say some of the highs were a bit to high or harsh. 3. The stock ram headunit is great and full of lots of great features...but from a pure sound quality standpoint it leaves a lot to be desired. Thanks for the kind words about my install and good luck with the rest of your build.


Hey thanks a lot for stopping by! I'm going to experiment with tweeters, I absolutely love the features of the factory HU and would hate to have to replace it. I am thinking of getting an aftermarket CD changer to plug into the AUX in on the MS8 so I could bypass the HU and see how the MS8 performs with a crystal clear input signal as compared to the factory HU. 


Andy W built an amazing piece of technology in the MS8, but there are certain "rules" he stresses that you need to follow for it to perform as designed, one of them being that you need tweeters. He also doesn't recommend firing up at the dash, except the center speaker, but I love having speakers up high like that.

I am definitely enjoying learning so much throughout this build process. In case you didn't know - your truck = my inspiration for this build.

Cheers


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

bertholomey said:


> Well... my $0. 02....
> 
> 1) XR's in the top of the dash playing to about 6k, inexpensive tweets in the sails. IMO this will produce the best sound.
> 
> ...


I think the easiest thing is to experiment with what I have. I have the CK6 tweeters that I can try and toy around with tweeter placement, I was thinking A pillars firing against the windshield but the sails opens up more options as I don't have to use "car audio" style tweeters, I can make up small pods and cover in grille cloth.

It's awesome to have so much input on the build, ideas I've never thought of before are getting thrown at me left and right.

Right now I think the path forward is:

Play around with the three way system using the MS8, crossover points and tweeter placement. 

With the extra amp channels being taken up by the tweeters, the MS8 will have to drive the rear fill. I think I'll leave the stock 6X9's in and run off MS8 power, the drivers are measured at 2.5 ohm so I'll be able to push the internal amp a little harder. I will also try rear fill on the 2.5" headliner speakers, I'm interested to see the difference in sound with the rear fill locations. I know Andy suggests that lower frequencies are better for rear fill, but I'll have to see for myself.

Edit: I cannot imagine trading in the MS8 after essentially building the system around it.


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

bertholomey said:


> Well... my $0. 02....
> 
> 1) XR's in the top of the dash playing to about 6k, inexpensive tweets in the sails. IMO this will produce the best sound.
> 
> ...


I have the same vehicle as Franks - 2011 Ram Crew Cab. As set out in the pic below:

- keeping the factory nav unit
- MS-8
- HD1200/1 to 2 1243D's
- HD600/4 to 4 XR6.5Ms in the doors
- HD600/4 to 3 XR3Ms in the dash

Any suggestions as to options? I was unaware of the widebander issue with the MS-8. I will have all 8 channels of the MS-8 and all but one channel on the amps taken.

I take it that there are no post- auto tune tweaks that can be done to the XR3Ms alone, without affecting the rest of the setup?

Thanks.


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Frank Drebin said:


> What I could do is...run MS8 channels 1 & 2 to an active crossover which would go into 4 channels of amplification.
> 
> The MS8 would recognize the actively run XR3M's and tweeters as "one" speaker
> 
> ...


How do you intend to do this? Using a Y splitter? How do you deal with what I would have thought should be two separate crossovers?


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

mtnbkr said:


> How do you intend to do this? Using a Y splitter? How do you deal with what I would have thought should be two separate crossovers?


Hopefully this makes sense:


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Frank Drebin said:


> Hopefully this makes sense:


Still missing a tweeter for the center channel  

Kelvin


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Frank Drebin said:


> Hopefully this makes sense:


Thanks for the response.

I sure would love to hear someone explain why the widebanders are a problem for the MS-8's auto tune. Not saying they aren't, Im just trying to understand why they are.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

mtnbkr said:


> Thanks for the response.
> 
> I sure would love to hear someone explain why the widebanders are a problem for the MS-8's auto tune. Not saying they aren't, Im just trying to understand why they are.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1488360-post70.html 

Do a search on polar response... which goes hand to hand with beaming. 

Kelvin


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## unemployedconsumer (Sep 24, 2010)

mtnbkr said:


> Thanks for the response.
> 
> I sure would love to hear someone explain why the widebanders are a problem for the MS-8's auto tune. Not saying they aren't, Im just trying to understand why they are.


They're not. If anything the ms8 makes it easier to run tweeterless because it is going to try and eq in the information to hit the target response curve. This set up would sound fantastic without tweeters, its just if you did an a/b comparison with and without them you would probably prefer the set up with tweeters.


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

unemployedconsumer said:


> They're not. If anything the ms8 makes it easier to run tweeterless because it is going to try and eq in the information to hit the target response curve. This set up would sound fantastic without tweeters, its just if you did an a/b comparison with and without them you would probably prefer the set up with tweeters.


Damn.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

unemployedconsumer said:


> They're not. If anything the ms8 makes it easier to run tweeterless because it is going to try and eq in the information to hit the target response curve. This set up would sound fantastic without tweeters, its just if you did an a/b comparison with and without them you would probably prefer the set up with tweeters.


Well, I did a comparison of tweeters @ 7Khz & up vs. tweeterless, running 3 way active on the MS8. 

I only listened to about 30 mins with this setup, but the setups sounded *very very close*. I have no doubts that I will be satisfied with running a tweeterless center channel. I will most likely add tweets in the A pillars but I don't think if you went without them that they would be missed.

I may have let the MS8 thread get into my head as far as what I can hear, and what I cannot; like they say on DIYMA "trust your ears".

It could be due to the fact that I think I like a brighter tweeter, and the XR3M's are more laid back and natural sounding, does this make sense?


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## unemployedconsumer (Sep 24, 2010)

Frank Drebin said:


> Well, I did a comparison of tweeters @ 7Khz & up vs. tweeterless, running 3 way active on the MS8.
> 
> I only listened to about 30 mins with this setup, but the setups sounded *very very close*. I have no doubts that I will be satisfied with running a tweeterless center channel. I will most likely add tweets in the A pillars but I don't think if you went without them that they would be missed.
> 
> ...


Totally makes sense. Go with what sounds good to you and don't let anyone sway what you like. In my opinion if you add tweeters only do it because you feel the improvement is worth it and they can fit your install in a reasonable manner.
IMO Andy is a really helpful, smart, guy. But he is really opinionated and I get the impression he hasn't heard any of the really good wide range speakers on the market. Also he is an employee of JBL so he has to tow the company lines. JBL doesn't sell any extended range speakers for car audio so he won't think about recommending them. He also has stated their flagship speakers are the best on the market which isn't something many on this site would agree with. I also feel like its worth being noted that he doesn't even run an ms8 in his car.


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

I'm still confused. Is the perceived lack of sparkle because the XR3Ms cannot hit the highs of a tweeter, or that they cannot hit them with as much sparkle, or is it because the MS-8 is not allowing them to operate in that frequency range? As long as they sound fine running in higher frequency ranges, can you not "force" them to run there?

What is the cause of the lack of sparkle (assuming there is a lack of sparkle)?


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## unemployedconsumer (Sep 24, 2010)

mtnbkr said:


> I'm still confused. Is the perceived lack of sparkle because the XR3Ms cannot hit the highs of a tweeter, or that they cannot hit them with as much sparkle, or is it because the MS-8 is not allowing them to operate in that frequency range? As long as they sound fine running in higher frequency ranges, can you not "force" them to run there?
> 
> What is the cause of the lack of sparkle (assuming there is a lack of sparkle)?


Here are the facts as I see them. Speakers all sound different. Even with the exact same frequency response, your car will sound differently depending on crossover point and speaker selection i.e. XR3M's sound different playing the the high notes than a tweeter will. XR3M's sound great without tweeters using an ms8 (I ran this set up for quite a while). Alot of people on here are in the pursuit of perfection and/or like to swap out gear a lot looking for different or better. The best scoring competition cars run tweeters. 

Try and stress less and just hook up your gear and listen to it. Your setup could very easily be better than most cars (or all) you have heard, with you running an XR duo without tweeters and an ms8. The questions you have to ask yourself is are you the kind of person who constantly swaps gear looking for better, and are you going to leave yourself wondering could it have sounded better if you incorporated tweeters in your install. With everything said, looking at your proposed set up, I feel like overall you should be happy with the outcome.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

unemployedconsumer said:


> Totally makes sense. Go with what sounds good to you and don't let anyone sway what you like. In my opinion if you add tweeters only do it because you feel the improvement is worth it and they can fit your install in a reasonable manner.
> IMO Andy is a really helpful, smart, guy. But he is really opinionated and I get the impression he *hasn't heard any of the really good wide range speakers on the market.* Also he is an employee of JBL so he has to tow the company lines. JBL doesn't sell any extended range speakers for car audio so he won't think about recommending them. He also has stated their flagship speakers are the best on the market which isn't something many on this site would agree with. I also feel like its worth being noted that he doesn't even run an ms8 in his car.


This is the impression I get from the MS8 thread. When someone says to run a coax, any coax as long as it has a tweeter over a speaker like the XR3M, even as an extreme newb I'm forced to question that a bit. I'd put an XR3M without a tweeter in my dash over a JL TR350cxi (for example) any day, and I don't think I'm alone in that opinion.

I'm glad I was able to (briefly) test out the system with dedicated tweeters. I think it could all come down to listening tastes, mtnbkr has stated that he doesn't like the sound of tweeters, and I find myself boosting the upper frequencies. I don't like shrillness or harshness, but I like a brighter sound.

I do not think that adding tweeters to the XR3M's will give you that "wow" or "holy ****" factor, but I am turning into that type of guy who will always want to try out new gear...which is perfectly acceptable for me. 

I am going ahead and adding them, but I can comfortably now say that you won't miss them if you don't have them, unless you really like tweeters, which I do. I also like the option of playing with them between 4k and 8khz to see how they will blend with the XR3M's.

I don't want go give Andy a bum rap, you have to think how tiring it would get answering the same questions over and over again. He may come across as opinionated, but I think he is just stressing over and over what he knows will work best with the MS8. There are combinations that may work better than he suggests, but he cannot guarantee that they will.

He basically says in his thread, "do as I say and your system will sound great, if you stray from my directions, it may sound great or it may sound poor - your decision".


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Frank Drebin said:


> He basically says in his thread, "do as I say and your system will sound great, if you stray from my directions, it may sound great or it may sound poor - your decision".


That, to me, is the biggest part people have problems with. He isn't saying his way is the only way, but he is saying that he knows his way works and will work well. Basically, he has idiotproofed the process and "idiots" still try and make it hard on themselves.

I say "idiots" because other setups can work if excecuted properly. I know of several people (myself included) who haven't followed his suggestions and have reported good results. But also take a look at the 200+ pages in the MS8 thread and you'll see that 90% of people with problems DIDN'T take his advice and DIDN'T know how to execute alternate methods properly.

Also remember that sometimes the "sparkle" you hear from tweeters is increased amplitude from reflections. These reflections may sound good, but ultimately make the playback LESS accurate. If you put a towel or dashmat up and notice that things sound less "sparkly", consider that a function of bad reflections and you may not want them in the first place. It took me a long time to realize this so hopefully it helps.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

unemployedconsumer said:


> Totally makes sense. Go with what sounds good to you and don't let anyone sway what you like. In my opinion if you add tweeters only do it because you feel the improvement is worth it and they can fit your install in a reasonable manner.
> IMO Andy is a really helpful, smart, guy. But he is really opinionated and I get the impression he hasn't heard any of the really good wide range speakers on the market. Also he is an employee of JBL so he has to tow the company lines. JBL doesn't sell any extended range speakers for car audio so he won't think about recommending them. He also has stated their flagship speakers are the best on the market which isn't something many on this site would agree with. I also feel like its worth being noted that he doesn't even run an ms8 in his car.


I have felt the same way about the posts I have read from AW - I think you hit it on the head (and had the courage to say it )



mtnbkr said:


> I'm still confused. Is the perceived lack of sparkle because the XR3Ms cannot hit the highs of a tweeter, or that they cannot hit them with as much sparkle, or is it because the MS-8 is not allowing them to operate in that frequency range? As long as they sound fine running in higher frequency ranges, can you not "force" them to run there?
> 
> What is the cause of the lack of sparkle (assuming there is a lack of sparkle)?


I think a thing that is missing here is driver mounting location. My XRs are on the pillar - pretty much on-axis - works really well without a tweeter for Most people......on top of the dash or completely off axis....many will still want a tweeter. The XRs do provide a lot of information in the higher frequencies - that little bit of 'air' and possibly 'sparkle'  is what a tweeter does so much better.



unemployedconsumer said:


> Here are the facts as I see them. Speakers all sound different. Even with the exact same frequency response, your car will sound differently depending on crossover point and speaker selection i.e. XR3M's sound different playing the the high notes than a tweeter will. XR3M's sound great without tweeters using an ms8 (I ran this set up for quite a while). Alot of people on here are in the pursuit of perfection and/or like to swap out gear a lot looking for different or better. The best scoring competition cars run tweeters.
> 
> Try and stress less and just hook up your gear and listen to it. Your setup could very easily be better than most cars (or all) you have heard, with you running an XR duo without tweeters and an ms8. The questions you have to ask yourself is are you the kind of person who constantly swaps gear looking for better, and are you going to leave yourself wondering could it have sounded better if you incorporated tweeters in your install. With everything said, looking at your proposed set up, I feel like overall you should be happy with the outcome.





Frank Drebin said:


> This is the impression I get from the MS8 thread. When someone says to run a coax, any coax as long as it has a tweeter over a speaker like the XR3M, even as an extreme newb I'm forced to question that a bit. I'd put an XR3M without a tweeter in my dash over a JL TR350cxi (for example) any day, and I don't think I'm alone in that opinion.
> 
> I'm glad I was able to (briefly) test out the system with dedicated tweeters. I think it could all come down to listening tastes, mtnbkr has stated that he doesn't like the sound of tweeters, and I find myself boosting the upper frequencies. I don't like shrillness or harshness, but I like a brighter sound.
> 
> ...


Personally, I really like where this thread ended up  I think you did a good amount of reading to try to optimize your set up prior to install, you tried some things after you installed, and you are open to trying additional things as you continue to get things set up and tuned. Great job!


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Wait, the rep for JBL doesn't Even run a MS8 in his car?


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

unemployedconsumer said:


> Totally makes sense. Go with what sounds good to you and don't let anyone sway what you like. In my opinion if you add tweeters only do it because you feel the improvement is worth it and they can fit your install in a reasonable manner.
> IMO Andy is a really helpful, smart, guy. But he is really opinionated and I get the impression he hasn't heard any of the really good wide range speakers on the market. Also he is an employee of JBL so he has to tow the company lines. JBL doesn't sell any extended range speakers for car audio so he won't think about recommending them. * He also has stated their flagship speakers are the best on the market which isn't something many on this site would agree with.* I also feel like its worth being noted that he doesn't even run an ms8 in his car.


I think the comments above about Andy are a bit uncalled for. First, he is opinionated for good reason...polar response is a real issue and widebanders have some SERIOUS potential issues if you don't plan well for them. It is MUCH easier to have every speaker in the system playing within it's pistonic range and remaining omni-directional. It doesn't mean you can't do it, but it isn't easy to do properly, and USUALLY the people who have to ask are people who shouldn't be trying to tackle it.

Next, I don't think I've ever seen Andy "tow the line". I've never seen him say "X brand speaker, amp, sub is bad, you should use Y product from JBL". In fact, I don't remember seeing him once suggest a JBL product. It's common to see him say, "Run the largest center you can and make sure it has a tweeter". It ISN'T common to see him say, "Run a single C608GTi, it can cross down at 80hz and the tweeter can be mounted coaxially so it's the best choice for the MS8. You can buy it at Harman Audio."

Lastly, the 560/660 GTi series ARE some of the best sounding speakers that I've personally heard. In fact, I'm planning on running the woofers in my next build for left, right, and center and I'm sad that they will only be playing from 500hz down because they sound THAT good in the midrange too. I say this having heard some great installs using HAT Legatia and SE series, Morel Elate, JL ZR, Dynaudio Esotec & Esotar, Alpine SPX, Audible Physics, Scanspeak, etc.* "Many on this site" may not agree because they have not heard the actual top of the line stuff from JBL, but it doesn't make them right. 

*For the record, I'm not saying they are the "best" as it's too subjective, but I AM saying they sound good enough to me (a person with good experience with a wide range of highly held speakers) to use in my upcoming build.

Also, do you know why Andy isn't using the MS8 in his build? He has shared the reason here before, and if you don't know why, I DON'T think it is "worth being noted."


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Coppertone said:


> Wait, the rep for JBL doesn't Eben run a MS8 in his car?


Well, I told the guy who stated that to back it up with WHY since it will scare people (just like it seems to have done with you).

The reason Andy is not running the MS8 is because he is using a carputer. He uses a carputer for a few reasons, but two important ones. 

-He is running more speakers than the MS8 can handle. The software he uses to control the system is nearly the same though.

-He uses a carputer because it allows him to take home-audio based algorithms and plug-ins and see how well they work in a car-audio evironment. As far as I know, he even does some testing in his car to see how well software for home-audio works before using it in the home. His car is essentially a testbed (first line of testing) for any computer based plug-in DSP software.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bertholomey said:


> I have felt the same way about the posts I have read from AW - I think you hit it on the head (and had the courage to say it )


For the record (and based on my post above), I DON'T think Andy is always right in his suggestions either. I am actually planning to run a variation of a wideband setup in my next build and it will be using an MS8. 

That being said, I will still stick with the point that very few people have properly pulled off using a wideband setup in their cars, and about half of those that did DON'T realize it works well because they did a good job at minimizing reflections (or if they do they don't post about it).



bertholomey said:


> Personally, I really like where this thread ended up I think you did a good amount of reading to try to optimize your set up prior to install, you tried some things after you installed, and you are open to trying additional things as you continue to get things set up and tuned. Great job!


I agree with this 100% and congratulate the OP on being so open to let his build progress. I always try and take the same approach in my builds. Plan as much as possible for the best end result possible, test and listen, response with modifications accordingly. Sorry that I pulled things OT, as it seems you have a great build going so far.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

pionkej said:


> Well, I told the guy who stated that to back it up with WHY since it will scare people (just like it seems to have done with you).
> 
> The reason Andy is not running the MS8 is because he is using a carputer. He uses a carputer for a few reasons, but two important ones.
> 
> ...


Thank you kindly sir for this information. I wasn't trying to bash this gentleman, it is just I have worked for several corporations who if you did not use their product felt youshould be with another company.


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Frank Drebin said:


> ...mtnbkr has stated that he doesn't like the sound of tweeters, and I find myself boosting the upper frequencies. I don't like shrillness or harshness, but I like a brighter sound.


That would be my position on tweeters as well. I don't like harshness (obviously), but love sparkle (obviously). Probably the same as 99.99% of everyone out there. 

I am really adverse to adding tweeters, but not because I don't like their sound. I just don't want to cut into my A pillars or sails, I don't want to run more speaker wire to either location, and I don't have any more room for amps - really, can I not make this work with 3 HDs boasting 10 channels and 2400 watts? 

So...I was planning on running 3 XR3Ms on the dash, firing up to the windshield, without tweeters...all frowned upon when running the MS-8. Goddamn - sometimes it doesn't matter how much I read before I pull the pin on things, I still end up screwing up. I had no idea of these issues with widebanders and the MS-8. And it's not just the widebanders alone - SFTrainer is enjoying all sorts of accolades with his. Apparently it's the widebanders combined with the MS-8 that's the problem. I am very surprised there is no work around for this. Amazed actually.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

mtnbkr said:


> That would be my position on tweeters as well. I don't like harshness (obviously), but love sparkle (obviously). Probably the same as 99.99% of everyone out there.
> 
> I am really adverse to adding tweeters, but not because I don't like their sound. I just don't want to cut into my A pillars or sails, I don't want to run more speaker wire to either location, and I don't have any more room for amps - really, can I not make this work with 3 HDs boasting 10 channels and 2400 watts?
> 
> So...I was planning on running 3 XR3Ms on the dash, firing up to the windshield, without tweeters...all frowned upon when running the MS-8. Goddamn - sometimes it doesn't matter how much I read before I pull the pin on things, I still end up screwing up. I had no idea of these issues with widebanders and the MS-8. And it's not just the widebanders alone - SFTrainer is enjoying all sorts of accolades with his. Apparently it's the widebanders combined with the MS-8 that's the problem. I am very surprised there is no work around for this. Amazed actually.


I think your best bet is to install and listen for yourself, instead of speculating on how bad it's going to sound.


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Frank Drebin said:


> I think your best bet is to install and listen for yourself, instead of speculating on how bad it's going to sound.


I will.

I still don't understand why there is not a work around, assuming the XR3Ms kick a$$ without the MS-8. Bizarre and very disappointing. I have my reasons why I would prefer to not run tweeters. I have my reasons why I want to run an MS-8. The XR3Ms apparently sound awesome with no MS-8. This is the source of my disappointment - it's the combination of the MS-8 and the widebanders that's the problem. Alone, both are apparently stellar in this application.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

mtnbkr said:


> I will.
> 
> I still don't understand why there is not a work around, assuming the XR3Ms kick a$$ without the MS-8. Bizarre and very disappointing. I have my reasons why I would prefer to not run tweeters. I have my reasons why I want to run an MS-8. The XR3Ms apparently sound awesome with no MS-8. This is the source of my disappointment - it's the combination of the MS-8 and the widebanders that's the problem. Alone, both are apparently stellar in this application.


I believe the MS8-widebander issue is overstated, if not altogether unnoticeable.


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Frank Drebin said:


> I believe the MS8-widebander issue is overstated, if not altogether unnoticeable.


Perhaps, but that was certainly not the impression I got wading through pages 267 through 270 (or thereabouts) of the MS-8 thread I dove into last evening. There was no equivocation in the black and white statements made there. And you yourself notice a difference. I suppose you might notice a difference between the sparkle of the widebander and tweeters if run without the MS-8, but I bet not. It seems to be the combination of the 2. At least that's how it's coming across at my end.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

mtnbkr said:


> And you yourself notice a difference. I suppose you might notice a difference between the sparkle of the widebander and tweeters if run without the MS-8, but I bet not.


What makes you say this? Do you think if SFtrainer added tweeters in his A pillars that he wouldn't notice a difference in sound?


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

pionkej said:


> I agree with this 100% and congratulate the OP on being so open to let his build progress. I always try and take the same approach in my builds. Plan as much as possible for the best end result possible, test and listen, response with modifications accordingly. Sorry that I pulled things OT, as it seems you have a great build going so far.


Not OT at all John - thank you for adding perspective to what was posted here. 

BTW... Loving the 'where does width come from thread' - looking forward to seeing your updates.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

unemployedconsumer said:


> Totally makes sense. Go with what sounds good to you and don't let anyone sway what you like. In my opinion if you add tweeters only do it because you feel the improvement is worth it and they can fit your install in a reasonable manner.
> IMO Andy is a really helpful, smart, guy. But he is really opinionated and I get the impression *he hasn't heard any of the really good wide range speakers on the market.* Also he is an employee of JBL so he has to tow the company lines. *JBL doesn't sell any extended range speakers for car audio so he won't think about recommending them.* *He also has stated their flagship speakers are the best on the market which isn't something many on this site would agree with.* *I also feel like its worth being noted that he doesn't even run an ms8 in his car.*


Lots and lots and LOTS of misinformation in your post... I remember him saying that he heard a few wide-range drivers but none had the sparkle that comes with using a smaller cone - also, forum boner doesn't make them best wide-range drivers on the market... just forum boner. 
If JBL isn't selling any, there might actually be a reason... I'll let you meditate on that one 
I can tell you, their 660Gti is one of the lowest distortion driver in JBL's history line - THAT is something... Not liking the sound is a preference thing but you cannot discard the engineers work on this set. They also have access to Klippel in order to further optimize their drivers... They did there homework from drivers to Xover, have you seen how big those are??? I do believe it's up top with the best on the market today - I like Focal drivers, the Utopia lines is surely considered to be one of the best set on the market today - yet I'm sure many on the forum would disagree with that. The forum community is not the know-it-all god :laugh:
Not using the "commercially available" MS-8 in his car does not mean he isn't using the software and trying to perfect it with his carputer  

Kelvin


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Ok... Took me some time but I've found it. 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1207443-post4506.html 

Should also read this thread: FULL OF KNOWLEDGE 
^ Andy should put that in his sig 

Again, read about Polar response... 

Kelvin


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Ok... Took me some time but I've found it.
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1207443-post4506.html
> 
> Should also read this thread: FULL OF KNOWLEDGE
> ...


Okay. Just so I understand, rancid ketchup poured on an otherwise scrumptious burger makes for a rancid snack, regardless of whether it's served a la carte or garnished with a juicy MS-8 on the side. Correct?


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Kelvin, with all due respect, Andy is biased as all hell against wideband drivers. I don't know how you could argue otherwise after reading this snippet of his post.

I have seen more than one quality build that utilizes widebanders.



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Widebanders are good when you want to build a super cheap almost full range speaker for a dollar. That's what they're for--cheap computer speakers. They have no place in a high-quality audio system. They have wide dispersion at low frequencies and narrow dispersion at high frequencies (relative to their diameter) just as all speakers do. Asking if they're good enough is a little like asking if putting only a little rancid ketchup on your burger will really make it taste bad.


Anyways, I think this is enough O.T. for this thread. I think we should have a separate thread in the technical and advanced section to discuss widebanders further. I'll take the reigns on that one.


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Frank Drebin said:


> Kelvin, with all due respect, Andy is biased as all hell against wideband drivers. I don't know how you could argue otherwise after reading this snippet of his post.
> 
> I have seen more than one quality build that utilizes widebanders.
> 
> ...


Entitle it "Widebanders...Rancid Ketchup or Computer Speakers...Discuss among Yourselves..."


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Frank Drebin said:


> Kelvin, with all due respect, Andy is biased as all hell against wideband drivers. I don't know how you could argue otherwise after reading this snippet of his post.
> 
> I have seen more than one quality build that utilizes widebanders.
> 
> ...


Fair enough  Sorry for the OT

Kelvin


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Fair enough  Sorry for the OT
> 
> Kelvin


I love the OT, its just better in its own thread. Easier for you to search and reference posts for the newbs.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...eband-drivers-you-discussion.html#post1489843


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Anyhoo, pulled the trigger on some tweets and a xover today. Hope the sellers dont mind me using their pics till I can take my own.
*
Tweeter - H Audio Enigma*

Supposedly performs well over 4khz, and I got a smokin deal.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Crossover - JBL GTX47


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## SfTrainer (Sep 6, 2010)

Frank Drebin said:


> Hey thanks a lot for stopping by! I'm going to experiment with tweeters, I absolutely love the features of the factory HU and would hate to have to replace it. I am thinking of getting an aftermarket CD changer to plug into the AUX in on the MS8 so I could bypass the HU and see how the MS8 performs with a crystal clear input signal as compared to the factory HU.
> 
> 
> Andy W built an amazing piece of technology in the MS8, but there are certain "rules" he stresses that you need to follow for it to perform as designed, one of them being that you need tweeters. He also doesn't recommend firing up at the dash, except the center speaker, but I love having speakers up high like that.
> ...


Thanks Frank...glad to hear my system was your inspiration. I enjoy the system everyday and have yet to regret what it cost me. I'll be watching your progress and looking forward to seeing the outcome.


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Frank Drebin said:


> Anyhoo, pulled the trigger on some tweets and a xover today. Hope the sellers dont mind me using their pics till I can take my own.
> *
> Tweeter - H Audio Enigma*
> 
> Supposedly performs well over 4khz, and I got a smokin deal.


Cool! Interested to hear your impressions of them! I've thought about adding a set to my H-Audio setup.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

ecbmxer said:


> Cool! Interested to hear your impressions of them! I've thought about adding a set to my H-Audio setup.


Will do. Keep in mind I'm very inexperienced with car audio so my opinion is to be taken with a grain of salt.

Snapped some quick pics of the sub box last night, I know my truck is dirty

Carpet matches very closely, some pics it looks off, not sure why.


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Its crazy how those trucks have that lip that goes all around the seat perimeter. It's practically a sub box without a top! Looks really good. I built a box very similar for my Nissan Titan when I had it. Sounded good.


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## myhikingboots (Oct 28, 2010)

Looking good! Do you have your amps installed? Would love to see a pic of that!


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

Full size DodgeTrucks, have had this cavity, or similar since 2002 in the Quad Cabs as far as I know. 

The install is looking great, looking forward to the finished product!!


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Thanks guys.

My amp rack & wiring is a hack job right now. Exposed wires, etc behind the seat. I plan on redoing it *sometime* with the new amps, and running all new speaker wires. Here's some pics as it sits now, I am not happy with it but fortunately it is hidden all the time.


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

myhikingboots said:


> I just got the x69s a few weeks ago, but haven't installed yet. Waiting on sound deadener to arrive. I'll post some shots after I shoe horn them into the Ram.
> 
> Chuck


How is the shoehorning coming?


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## Diezel10 (Dec 22, 2010)

Yeah how is that "Shoehorning" you shold look into MATT's nightmare on the Dodge ID Demo Truck he did., He had to move the Window Motor and modify the window tracks and reinforce the doors due to the amounts of power it made!!!


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## myhikingboots (Oct 28, 2010)

Diezel10 said:


> Yeah how is that "Shoehorning" you shold look into MATT's nightmare on the Dodge ID Demo Truck he did., He had to move the Window Motor and modify the window tracks and reinforce the doors due to the amounts of power it made!!!


I've got it all planned out, and started making the new grill covers, but that is it. Do you have a link to Matt's nightmare? I couldn't find anything when I searched it. I'm really not that concerned. I'm making 3/4" spacers and that will push the door card out. Which is why I'm making new grill covers.


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## Diezel10 (Dec 22, 2010)

Go to Backyard Installers.com his website and you will find the video blog there for the truck also really good thread about the horns he installed in it too.

I am really interested in your process......I plan to install x69's in all 4 doors of my mega cab..once I've seen what yo've done.......hurry up!!!...LOL


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## iD Z24 (Aug 6, 2008)

I remember when Andy first had the "prototype" in his Mini at Steele Valley. All of us iD guys were amazed with the unit. Andy has been playing with the software for 6 or 7 years at least. His software was way to complex for most. He can change just about every aspect of the signal. The MS-8 has been made for the general public. It gets you very close, then you still need to tweak it a little to get it where you like it.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Happy Saturday everyone.

The last couple of weeks I've been without tunes in the truck. I ripped out the old amp rack and have been working on a new one. Its more work than I originally thought. Probably have 8-10 hours in on it. I've built it as a "Plug & Play" so hopefully all I'll have to hook up is the speaker leads, MS8 high level connections, remote power in and Pos and Negative. Pics to come. I'm quite pleased how it's turned out.

System has changed direction as well. Going traditional 2 way component in the doors instead of 3 way.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Im not gonna get into the debate of whether or not you need a tweeter with the xr3 and the ms8...but i can tell you based on experience:


in sftrainer's dodge ram, remember these are just facing straight up the dash off axis...here is the end result curve on pink noise:










on the zapco tuning file, here are the upper frequency settings on the XR3:

3200hz -5db 5.0Q
8000hz +3db 1.5Q
16000hz +3db 2.5Q

thats it!

thats less boost on the high end than most of my tweeter installs.


and on both occasions that he competed, having been judged by 4 judges...the high freq was NEVER an issue, infact, he got dinged for having too much highs by one or two judges 


i never get bogged down into the technical side of the discussion, but from anyone who has heard the car, i dont think highs were ever an issue... and many of them have much better ears than my own.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

simplicityinsound said:


> Im not gonna get into the debate of whether or not you need a tweeter with the xr3 and the ms8...but i can tell you based on experience:
> 
> 
> in sftrainer's dodge ram, remember these are just facing straight up the dash off axis...here is the end result curve on pink noise:
> ...


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## Blorton (Aug 7, 2011)

Thanks for posting up your progression and throughts, Frank and Bing. I'm planning to do similar in my Ram with L3's and find these discussions very helpful.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

simplicityinsound said:


> Im not gonna get into the debate of whether or not you need a tweeter with the xr3 and the ms8...but i can tell you based on experience:
> 
> 
> in sftrainer's dodge ram, remember these are just facing straight up the dash off axis...here is the end result curve on pink noise:
> ...


Might be due to the lack of decay from the boost... 

Kelvin


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Frank Drebin said:


> I appreciate the input Bing, and truthfully I am so friggin sick of the widebander/tweeter debate.
> 
> I don't know if I have an ear that can appreciate good sound, I might be one of those guys who like the smiley face EQ. Whatever, it's my truck, I don't want to get judged on it, I just want it to sound good - to me.
> 
> ...


Never seen the new Ram but wouldn't it be possible to install a 6" driver somewhere to help the XR3M in the center? Doesn't have to be in the center of the car: "cone of confusion"... 

Kelvin


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Never seen the new Ram but wouldn't it be possible to install a 6" driver somewhere to help the XR3M in the center? Doesn't have to be in the center of the car: "cone of confusion"...
> 
> Kelvin


Kelvin can you clarify this? I don't think there are any spots but I'm confused by that statement. Where are some suitable locations, for example.

I could build a pod for a 6.5" driver right on the dash, there is a large flat area where it could easily sit.

But there is no way I'm cutting into that beautiful leather dash. I will have to live with a 3" center.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Frank Drebin said:


> Kelvin can you clarify this? I don't think there are any spots but I'm confused by that statement. Where are some suitable locations, for example. Well since you have a truck, you will have to get creative... If you had a sedan, you could install a 6.5" or even an 8" right in the middle of your rear deck: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/74088-midbass-arrays-revisited.html
> 
> I could build a pod for a 6.5" driver right on the dash, there is a large flat area where it could easily sit.
> 
> But there is no way I'm cutting into that beautiful leather dash. I will have to live with a 3" center.


Who knows, a midbass between your center console and your rear seats might work... Just thinking out loud  lol

Kelvin


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Who knows, a midbass between your center console and your rear seats might work... Just thinking out loud  lol
> 
> Kelvin


So the midbass doesn't have to be on axis or anywhere close to the center? Like what if there was room under the dash for a midbass firing down towards the floor?


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

How would you time align that though? Can't the MS8 only do a 1way center? I've thought about that too. Like what about putting the center midbass near the firewall right in line with the center console. Sometimes there is a gap under the dash there.

I think your setup will be pretty sweet how you have it planned out!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

subwoofery said:


> Might be due to the lack of decay from the boost...
> 
> Kelvin


actually the same judges had similar comments about a few of my other cars including my own  but he was the only one running the xr3


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

ecbmxer said:


> How would you time align that though? Can't the MS8 only do a 1way center? I've thought about that too. Like what about putting the center midbass near the firewall right in line with the center console. Sometimes there is a gap under the dash there.
> 
> I think your setup will be pretty sweet how you have it planned out!


Yep. I think I will be happy with it. I'm pretty sure I've overthunk the whole system, but I've made a decision (and an amp rack built to that decision) so I'm going to stick with it.

Here's a pic of the rack, ready to go in the back of the truck. The long speaker wire out front is to feed the subs.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

For those of you with these types of trucks, I'll explain how the amp rack is going to go in. I can't take credit for this idea, another user on another forum (rlandon, ramforumz) had this idea and I think it's fantastic. You can see I have 4 metal brackets, two straight on the top and 2 l shaped on the bottom.

The bottom brackets will be fastened to the seatbelt hold-down bolts on the drivers and passengers side.

The top brackets will use the same bolts as the child seat "tethers" attached to the back wall. There are three, and I'm using just the outside ones.

I will post some more pics as it's being installed, and finally actually installed.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Frank Drebin said:


> So the midbass doesn't have to be on axis or anywhere close to the center? Like what if there was room under the dash for a midbass firing down towards the floor?


That could and actually *should* work great - below beaming sound is still omni-directional ; for an 8" below about 1.5kHz is still fine. Just need separate amplification in order to be phase correct at the Xover point between your XR3M and midbass - either using some sort of 180° phase adjustment or T/A. 
You could buy a nice Zapco DC, Kenwood XR4S for cheap or Mosconi 120.4 DSP if you got the dough 



ecbmxer said:


> How would you time align that though? Can't the MS8 only do a 1way center? I've thought about that too. Like what about putting the center midbass near the firewall right in line with the center console. Sometimes there is a gap under the dash there.
> 
> I think your setup will be pretty sweet how you have it planned out!


Please read my reply above, you need to T/A either your midbass if it's closer to you or your midrange if your midbass is for eg. on the rear deck (further away from you) - closer to phase perfect at the Xover region... 

Kelvin


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

simplicityinsound said:


> actually the same judges had similar comments about a few of my other cars including my own  but he was the only one running the xr3


I guess judges don't like flat or rising top end then  

Kelvin


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Quick little update after a couple days of listening.

*Tweeters in the sail panels* - pretty harsh for my tastes in a traditional 2 way. I only listened for a day or two with them crossed over @ 4khz and was a little disappointed. 

*Rear Fill:* Never noticed it at all. It comes highly praised through the MS8 but I'm indifferent. I think I may try the factory headliner speakers instead of the rear doors.

*Center Channel -* I don't think I like the HAT L3SE. Not as smooth as the XR3M without a tweeter. The weird thing was when I recalibrated without a center channel, my image was like nothing I've ever heard before. More on that later...

Where I'm at right now:

Like I said I was pretty disappointed with the sound of both the two way components and the HAT center channel. I ended up going 3 way active without rear fill, or center channel. Been listening that way for a day or two and am very impressed so far.

XR6.5M in door panels 80-300hz
XR3M's in dash corners 300hz-9khz
H-Audio enigmas in sail panels 9khz & Up

Now I know the tweeters should be in the A pillars right next to the dash speakers, and they will, but this is kind of a test run for the quasi 3 way with the MS8.

The combination of the XR3's and the tweeters sounds amazing. I'm not the best at describing how something sounds, but I'll just say I'm very impressed. No harshness, but all kinds of detail. The tweeters sound better at 9k than they did at 7500 as well.

In a three way like this I really think you could get away with a cheaper driver than the XR6.5 M, like the Dayton RS180. I don't think 80-300Hz is really where these drivers supposedly shine. More in the 3-5Khz range? Seems a waste for such a wide range driver to be used solely for midbass.

MS8 tuning - I know in the MS8 thread Andy stresses to calibrate at -35 or so volume...I kinda took it a bit farther and would always cal at -40 to -45. Well I decided to try -30 with my first try without the center channel.

WOW. I don't think I've ever heard something like that in a vehicle. I kept checking my center speaker to see if it was on (it wasn't) because all the vocals were coming from the center of the windshield. It's the weirdest thing to hear when you've never heard a proper "image". Before all I noticed was the whole soundstage was above the dash, and kind of sounded the same across the dash. Now I can "hear" exactly where the vocals are coming from...its' really cool.

Subwoofer tuning took some work but its getting there...keep in mind I know what I'm doing is not actual tuning, but it's for lack of a better word when working with the MS-8.

I should also add that I'm planning on adding the external crossover that I had recently scrapped the idea. I have enough channels to go full 3 way front stage, 2 way center and rear fill.


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## myhikingboots (Oct 28, 2010)

Cool! I'm glad that your experimenting is paying off. Good luck and I'm very curious about your future tests!


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Good work Frank. I am STILL waiting for my speakers. Fawk.


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## mtnbkr (Sep 21, 2011)

Frank Drebin said:


> *Rear Fill:* Never noticed it at all. It comes highly praised through the MS8 but I'm indifferent. I think I may try the factory headliner speakers instead of the rear doors.
> 
> *Center Channel -* I don't think I like the HAT L3SE. Not as smooth as the XR3M without a tweeter. The weird thing was when I recalibrated without a center channel, my image was like nothing I've ever heard before. More on that later...
> 
> ...


I thought I knew the direction you were going until I got to the last paragraph of your post. Up until then it sounded like you were scrapping the rear fill and center channel. Do you expect an improvement going with rear fill and a 2 way center channel over a 3 way front with no center channel and no rear fill?


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

mtnbkr said:


> I thought I knew the direction you were going until I got to the last paragraph of your post. Up until then it sounded like you were scrapping the rear fill and center channel. Do you expect an improvement going with rear fill and a 2 way center channel over a 3 way front with no center channel and no rear fill?


Well my external crossover hasn't arrived yet so I don't have the channels to go 3 way active plus 2 way center plus rear fill, once I get it installed I will be able to go back to rear fill. See post 76 for the system diagram.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1488648-post76.html


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

bertholomey said:


> Well... my $0. 02....
> 
> 1) XR's in the top of the dash playing to about 6k, inexpensive tweets in the sails. IMO this will produce the best sound.
> 
> ...


This has proven to be great advice, thanks again for the input.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

^^Thanks man....that actually means a lot  I had a post stomped earlier this week, so this is pretty cool. 

Better yet, I'm glad things are going well with your system. I am extremely pleased with my XRs up to 6k and tweets from 6k and up.


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Frank Drebin said:


> Crossover - JBL GTX47


How are you liking this Crossover? It looks like it has a very wide frequency range that could mirror the range available with the MS8 up to 10000khz. I am using a Cache CEX ext xover but it only goes as high as 5000khz.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Bluenote said:


> How are you liking this Crossover? It looks like it has a very wide frequency range that could mirror the range available with the MS8 up to 10000khz. I am using a Cache CEX ext xover but it only goes as high as 5000khz.


Nice install. Sorry to say, the jbl crossover never made it there. We're working it out but if anyone else wants it. PM

I want to do a center channel and ms8 now.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

tyroneshoes said:


> Nice install. Sorry to say, the jbl crossover never made it there. We're working it out but if anyone else wants it. PM
> 
> I want to do a center channel and ms8 now.


If you need a CC LMK.


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## epatmd (Mar 4, 2010)

I'd appreciate your input on head unit...have a 2012 with same HU, upgrading system. You mentioned you did like SQ of HU on this thread. I'd hate to have to try changing it out. Have the rear camera, steering wheel controls, etc. Is SQ of this thing good enough to work with?


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## cmahood (Nov 7, 2010)

Frank Drebin said:


> For those of you with these types of trucks, I'll explain how the amp rack is going to go in. I can't take credit for this idea, another user on another forum (rlandon, ramforumz) had this idea and I think it's fantastic. You can see I have 4 metal brackets, two straight on the top and 2 l shaped on the bottom.
> 
> The bottom brackets will be fastened to the seatbelt hold-down bolts on the drivers and passengers side.
> 
> ...


Frank, I am really enjoying your install. I have an 07 Ram Quad Cab (previous generation), and I was not able to figure out how to do a vertical amp rack behind the rear seat without impacting the ability of the rear seats to lift up. What I did for my amp rack was to remove the 1/3 folding floor and install the amp rack horizontally under the rear seat. I currently have an under-seat 8" sub, but could go with a larger sub like you did, by removing the 2/3 folding floor. I need the folding floor for other things.

I also have played around with a few configurations, and the Ram has some challenging front stage acoustics. From the pics of the new truck, the door drivers are even lower than in mine which almost rules out a coaxial install. They are firing off-axis at your ankels. I am using a 2-way PPI 356cs comp set.

When I tried a coaxial install in the doors, the sound stage was very low. However, I finally drilled the doors, about 6" above the midbass for the tweets. (See pic). This is working well, and with an Alpine H660 autotune, the sound stage is now up on top of the dash and out front. THe autotun also suprisingly adds value to the rear boston door coax. The h600 autotune integrates them into the picture better than I thought it would.

My only regret is that the system could use more mid-punch, but this may be a function of the "smiley face" EQ imparted by the alpine, or perhaps a limitation of the PPI midbass drivers or installation. I use some mild EQ on top of the auto tune to add this back in (I prefer an enhanced mid, not a smiley face). The top end, IMO is perfect, and the alpine did an admirable job getting the low mids correct and the crossover to the sub correct.

I started out following the KISS principle and that has generally worked. I have tried to follow general principles and rely on (auto) tuning to make it work, rather than component swaps and blind experimentation. I started tuning with an Audiocontrol EQ, and that yielded positive gains, but I could never get the midbass correct until the alpine.

Based on yours and the other Ram thread, I am very interested in a wideband-on- dash approach, but hesitate because it might not turn out as well as what I have. I am not convinced that TA can solve the problems of separating the tweet and mid, and because of the RAM interior, this almost begs a dash install. Wish I could hear your truck.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

epatmd said:


> I'd appreciate your input on head unit...have a 2012 with same HU, upgrading system. You mentioned you did like SQ of HU on this thread. I'd hate to have to try changing it out. Have the rear camera, steering wheel controls, etc. Is SQ of this thing good enough to work with?


The MS8 is perfect for keeping your factory HU. It will do everything you want it to do and more.



cmahood said:


> Frank, I am really enjoying your install. I have an 07 Ram Quad Cab (previous generation), and I was not able to figure out how to do a vertical amp rack behind the rear seat without impacting the ability of the rear seats to lift up. What I did for my amp rack was to remove the 1/3 folding floor and install the amp rack horizontally under the rear seat. I currently have an under-seat 8" sub, but could go with a larger sub like you did, by removing the 2/3 folding floor. I need the folding floor for other things.
> 
> I also have played around with a few configurations, and the Ram has some challenging front stage acoustics. From the pics of the new truck, the door drivers are even lower than in mine which almost rules out a coaxial install. They are firing off-axis at your ankels. I am using a 2-way PPI 356cs comp set.
> 
> ...


I like both the widebander + tweeter in sails...the tweeters in the factory dash location was waay too far away from the mid.

If I was to do it again - I'd spend the money on a good set of components and not bother with the widebanders. Just my 2 cents. The MS8 does a fine job of bringing the stage above the dash.


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## Talon_66 (Feb 12, 2012)

Frank, great thread.
It inspired me to sign up. 
Im also located in Edmonton, would love to hear this set up in the future.


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## Prime mova (Aug 17, 2011)

Great thread with the JBL ms8 actually being used rather than being talked about 24/7 like in other posts.


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## cmahood (Nov 7, 2010)

Frank Drebin said:


> If I was to do it again - I'd spend the money on a good set of components and not bother with the widebanders. Just my 2 cents. The MS8 does a fine job of bringing the stage above the dash.


Yep, I was stoked to pick up some widebanders based on the other ram thread, but when I got mine tuned with the Alpine H660, everything came together. Your experience reinforces that this is the right way to go.


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

cmahood said:


> Yep, I was stoked to pick up some widebanders based on the other ram thread, but when I got mine tuned with the Alpine H660, everything came together. Your experience reinforces that this is the right way to go.


Right or wrong both configurations sound excellent. Just a lot more economical / a lot more options to go with components.


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## Diezel10 (Dec 22, 2010)

Been busy just got back in town.......Have you started on the X69 Build with the spacer?
I am anxiously waiting.

Thanks!


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

FWIW, an A/B comparison of an AP XR6.5M vs. an ID X-65 in my Civic installed in the door, I found the mid-bass impact a shade better with the AP XR6.5M. You have more cone area obviously in an X-69 and would almost assuredly tip the advantage to it, but IME the AP XR6.5M is far from being an inferior midbass.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

mtnbkr said:


> I still don't understand why there is not a work around, assuming the XR3Ms kick a$$ without the MS-8. Bizarre and very disappointing. I have my reasons why I would prefer to not run tweeters. I have my reasons why I want to run an MS-8. The XR3Ms apparently sound awesome with no MS-8. This is the source of my disappointment - it's the combination of the MS-8 and the widebanders that's the problem. Alone, both are apparently stellar in this application.


I consider myself a newbie, so this isn't intended as a thread jack but just wanted to comment on the combo of this equipment as this is what I have in my Civic (XR Duo + MS-8).

Don't have "a trained ear", but was at the Norcal meet yesterday. Received quite a few compliments, and nobody missed the tweeters, couldn't distinguish the MS-8 vs. another processor, etc. BigRed's only adjustment to my car was in the sub-bass (dropped 3.5dB in the 40Hz range), and said everything else was good and told me not to change a thing. Here's how I have the EQ set atm:

40Hz -3.5dB
160Hz -2db
200Hz -3db
250Hz -2db
630Hz -1.5db
800Hz -3db
1kHz -2.5db
1.25kHz -1dB

I imagine many of you have seen Bing's installs, so he's built and heard quite a few cars. My intent is strictly for the build is entirely as a daily driver. Here's what he had to say:



simplicityinsound said:


> Papasin...your car was the biggest surprise for me out oft he entire meet, it really is exactly the way i would like a car to sound ona daily basis, so smooth, warm, silky...wow...


So not sure if you completed the build, but for me, I'm happy with my choice of equipment, and works well for me in the Civic, and glad to hear the compliments received.

(ok, end of thread jack)


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## ALWX65 (Nov 20, 2013)

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but what ever happened? Was it finished and if so what were the final components used?


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