# Using Raw Drivers instead of car audio specific components



## ANT

There used to be a crazy on the forums a few years ago with guys using raw drivers in place of car audio specific components.
Is this something you would consider?

Would you know enough to build your own passive?

Check it:

bulk
raw drivers in Pro Audio Equipment | eBay

Peerless
peerless in TV, Video & Home Audio | eBay

Vifa
vifa in TV, Video & Home Audio | eBay

Scan speak
scan speak in TV, Video & Home Audio | eBay

SEAS
Seas in TV, Video & Home Audio | eBay


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## Jroo

Ive asked this question before. When I joined a few years back, the only car audio specific speakers people used were subs and that wasnt always the case. In the last couple of years it seems like the guys that looked for cheaper and better/different alternatives have died off. I remember having to look up some of the raw drivers people were using because I had never heard or seen them before. Every few months you seen the forum get a boner over a raw driver if the reviews are really good, but for the most part its whatever is for sale at your local car audio shop.


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## eisnerracing

you can but the speakers tend to be odd ohms like 8 / 12 most car audio amps make clean optium power at 4 ohm 
also you will need a crossover of some sort 

if you go that route look for a poly cone not paper becuse of moisture in the doors etc. 

most car audio speakers back in the day were made by vifa anyway LOL


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## j-man

No experience with 12ohm drivers but 8ohm is no issue at all. Only person that knew they were 8ohm was me  Of course, i was driving them with a Mosconi AS300.2 but still. Pick good drivers, clean amps, and a capable processor and using raw non-mobile drivers is a fantastic way to go


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## GlasSman

The entire pick a speaker from the Madisound or Parts Express mentality was the focus of many members here the entire purpose and only reason for exsistence for this website.



I never subscribed to that train of thought. I'm into Car Audio....fabrication....high quality amps....tuning....tasteful system design/layout.....not throwing a pair of 8 OHM drivers into my door to "see" if it performs well. 

I consider myself an enthusiast/installer and luckily the site has gravitated more towards that end of the hobby.

Now does that mean I won't use a speaker if it's not marketed towards Car Audio? NO I use a pair of Fountek FR89EX along with a variety of tweeters I have at my disposal and they serve the purpose. 

Will I ever use car audio specific driver? Sure I will. But right now I see no reason to change. There *ARE* other hobbies besides car audio after all.

Another thing is once you start running active you can swap out drivers at your leisure....but having to build passives....* NO WAY!!! *Too expensive.....time consuming.....and a waste of amplifier power.

At the end of the day it's all about the music anyway. Once it turns into a gear swapping hobby it becomes worse than a woman that buys a pair of $400 shoes every week.


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## MacLeod

For tweeters definitely! The Vifa ring radiator X25 I think it is, is as good as any car audio specifictweeter out there but costs around $50 a pair! 

Woofers are a different story at least in fitment. A lot are around 3" deep and that can be a problem for a lot of cars like my Accord.


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## eisnerracing

GlasSman said:


> The entire pick a speaker from the Madisound or Parts Express mentality was the focus of many members here the entire purpose and only reason for exsistence for this website.
> 
> 
> 
> I never subscribed to that train of thought. I'm into Car Audio....fabrication....high quality amps....tuning....tasteful system design/layout.....not throwing a pair of 8 OHM drivers into my door to "see" if it performs well.
> 
> I consider myself an enthusiast/installer and luckily the site has gravitated more towards that end of the hobby.
> 
> Now does that mean I won't use a speaker if it's not marketed towards Car Audio? NO I use a pair of Fountek FR89EX along with a variety of tweeters I have at my disposal and they serve the purpose.
> 
> Will I ever use car audio specific driver? Sure I will. But right now I see no reason to change. There *ARE* other hobbies besides car audio after all.
> 
> Another thing is once you start running active you can swap out drivers at your leisure....but having to build passives....* NO WAY!!! *Too expensive.....time consuming.....and a waste of amplifier power.
> 
> At the end of the day it's all about the music anyway. Once it turns into a gear swapping hobby it becomes worse than a woman that buys a pair of $400 shoes every week.


LMAO i love it good point (shoes)

- active yes but custom panels are made to the shape of a drivers and not all drives share the same size 

dayton, vifa , tang ban , fountek , hi vi , aurum, all great speakers and these manufactures also make alot of speakers for car audio companies 

vifa an audax made tweeters for some many company back in the day


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## QuakerMan

Is this thread an attempt at spuring the sort of technical discussion that took place several years ago when Deema was in its hayday? Wasn't the use of raw drivers and active processing one of the things this site was founded on back in a different bat time and different bat administration? 

I'm sure if someone cruised back into the DEEMA archives they could find some of the rich technical advice and discussion that seems to be missing these days.


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## claydo

I definately dig choosing my own raw drivers, nothing against car audio specific sets but when looking to find drivers that work in specific enclosures or angles, or just to suit a specific instal its hard to stay within the guidelines of mass generated matched sets that are voiced to work in typical car audio locations or voiced to be listenable in several different applications, but not performing well in any of them. Plus I see no sense in paying hard earned money for passive crossovers that suck balls in any situation than what they are designed for........... I mean how many of us really use stock locations for mids or tweeters? Just my opinion........and I wont say that you wont find any car specific components in my installs ever!


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## eisnerracing

looks like it was started by an admin to show new or sortof new DIY there are ways to gain a real custom install with more options than Focal, Hybrid, a/d/s etc. I think it was a good topic to discuss and show the many option of a real DIY


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## mda185

I have been using raw drivers with great success for more than 20 years and rarely consider mainstream commercial mobile audio speaker sets. I have the skills to design my own passive crossover but do prefer active crossover in most installations. It is very hard to get the steep crossover slopes possible with active any other way. Agree with other posts that say 8 ohms does not matter. It doesn't. Good drivers paired with good amps are going to sound great no matter what impedance the driver is. 

Peerless and Vifa lines have changed a lot in the past 5 years and it is no longer as clear to me which of their drivers will work well in mobile environments. Dayton offers a lot of suitable drivers. Seas does too. Scanspeak has some of the best drivers on the planet if you can afford them. If you are door mounting a speaker, you generally want to look for a Qts in the 0.5-0.75 range. You also want to look for long travel and a raised rear bump plate. If you can build an enclosure for the driver in its installation space, then almost anything is possible. 

It takes more effort and research to use raw drivers and responses to this thread show that not everyone is into that. To each his own but don't put me down for still wanting to put in the time and effort to use raw drivers. This site was once a really great resource for learning about this and to see how other enthusiasts did it. I don't like seeing that content getting rarer with the passage of time.


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## cajunner

what do you mean, they?

I have seen the enemy, and the enemy is us.


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## QuakerMan

QuakerMan said:


> Is this thread an attempt at spuring the sort of technical discussion that took place several years ago when Deema was in its hayday? Wasn't the use of raw drivers and active processing one of the things this site was founded on back in a different bat time and different bat administration?
> 
> I'm sure if someone cruised back into the DEEMA archives they could find some of the rich technical advice and discussion that seems to be missing these days.


My bad! I posted this before I noticed all the E-Ghey links. 
I guess I made the false assumption that the admin gives a **** about the content of this site.


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## cajunner

QuakerMan said:


> My bad! I posted this before I noticed all the E-Ghey links.
> I guess I made the false assumption that the admin gives a **** about the content of this site.


he's up to his ears in oatmeal, and wouldn't realize the "crazy" of a few years back, is the backbone of this site's staying power. 

the people that wanted to produce the best audio in their car didn't feel as if the drivers found in car audio packages were as good as the raw drivers available for the home speaker builder market.

these same people, who didn't accept the status quo, are the ones that pushed for objective measurements and when it was finally realized by npdang's use of the Klippel, the site gathered a lot of interested parties. The type of people who had some knowledge to offer, the type of people passionate about audio.

it's a shame it's come to this, in the same span of time a college education takes, to reduce this place to a swap market for goods and precious little of the theory is available for discussion, but that's a trend that can be seen across the audio world, as the extended recession develops repercussions in the design and development departments, and Bose fights the Chinese copy machines, and the innovations are coming few and far between.

lycan was a treasure of useful data, and it looked like a lot of it was his original thoughts. 

Glasswolf was accused of putting together tutorials based on other people's contributions, but it was still good to see here...


and I didn't get caught up in the Elite crowd, but I believe that was another gold mine of info, now switched off in the ether nets.


no, we're runnin' blind now, people, when the principal dividing supposition, the very premise of DIY is relegated to the "crazy" of yesteryear.


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## MacLeod

I dont know man. I think it is possible to be too smart by half in car audio. I think sometimes we tend to over-think, over-analyze and over-measure stuff. Ive read some discussions on here that seem more technical and complicated than a neurosurgery conference. There is a lot of science to speaker building and car audio but I think it is too easy to get into the details so much that youre arguing and discussing things that will never make an audible difference in a million years.

The reason I like the raw drivers is because the car audio kits are WAY too overpriced and I dont want to have to pay an extra $200 for a passive crossover because Ive been active for over a decade.


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## Earzbleed

"At the end of the day it's all about the music anyway. Once it turns into a gear swapping hobby it becomes worse than a woman that buys a pair of $400 shoes every week. "
 Very well put.


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## finbar

It's not unheard of for the component set makers to use off the shelf raw drivers.
May the "crazy" be with you, in a good way


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## cajunner

the combination of npdang's recent return to the forum and ANT putting the site up for sale, seemed like too much of a coincidence.

the site has turned commercial as we all knew it would with ANT turning the screws, and anyone eyeing this place for an investment opportunity would probably either recoup their investment by leaving it as commercial as it is now, or possibly ramping it up a bit even more as the membership has reached a level that is sustainable as a business opportunity and not just a niche site with peripheral advertising.

the most likely possible is that some new place is going to replace this place, like the others that came before this one, but there are several forums still here from before 2000 that are audio-centric and maintain readership, so who knows.

the industry has splintered, and this site is more adapted to suit people who are in the industry than what was before, and the use of off-shelf component sets and passives is probably going to continue to cut into the active demographic that this site contains, and has helped push the DSP category into the mainstream.


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## ANT

cajunner said:


> he's up to his ears in oatmeal, and wouldn't realize the "crazy" of a few years back, is the backbone of this site's staying power.


Up to my ears in Oatmeal?
Confirmed.
Unware of this sites back bone? Hold on chief... I am well aware of the roots fro which this sites grass grows.
Also aware of the 6 or so members that created a bogus account and forced werewolf (lycan) out of the site with their immature trolling.
I am aware of all kinds of stuff, and to assume anything else is a mistake.

Npdang returning? 
Me selling the site?
Nothing in common.
He is welcome to buy this one back if he wants it.
So are you

ANT


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## eisnerracing

Wow thead gone bad ! 
As if a admin wouldn't notice a slap in the face by its members 
Here is an idea if a member feels like he think he knows all the awnsers 
To the wheels that run a forum - private message the admin 
Don't measure your man hood in a post 
And I think it says a lot of an admin to defend himself them just close or delete
The thread 
I may be new here but I do try to follow the don't bash rules


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## Earzbleed

I think a group hug may be called for.


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## eisnerracing

Lol I agree


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## QuakerMan

eisnerracing said:


> Wow thead gone bad !
> As if a admin wouldn't notice a slap in the face by its members
> Here is an idea if a member feels like he think he knows all the awnsers
> To the wheels that run a forum - private message the admin
> Don't measure your man hood in a post
> And I think it says a lot of an admin to defend himself them just close or delete
> The thread
> I may be new here but I do try to follow the don't bash rules


This thread was askew from the first post. 

And as for the admin defending himself directly...
The impression I have gotten is that things are usually handled differently around here. We all get flamed from time to time and us underlings have no choice but to take it in stride.


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## cajunner

by saying "There used to be a crazy on the forums a few years ago with guys using raw drivers in place of car audio specific components." the idea itself is diminished, by the assertion that anyone who used raw drivers were in fact, crazy. Now, I've sort of looked at the hobby of raw drivers as a protected source, ever since I was buying horn tweeters and passive crossovers in the blue boxes at Radio Shack.

I didn't go for the Radio Shack's version of car audio product, but their home audio drivers sounded pretty good, in car or not.

so, the premise of what all the people on this site did in the past, is refuted by the owner of the site, that incongruity is what made me stop, and plug in to this one.

if it's not so, and due diligence (and recent posts, thanks ANT) says that there's more to the story, that's great and gratifying but I still don't consider it to be crazy to use raw drivers, even today in the great disposable era of throwaway Chinese goods and quality decreasing steadily by averages, when life cycles are part of the business stratagem, and end of life comes much closer to the warranty expiration date...


but whatever, it's a topic and I'm gonna discuss it, show me the door if I'm a bit too persnickety..


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## finbar

Generally speaking,

engage brain before operating keyboard.


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## cajunner

I admit, it's a little accusatory to say the admin isn't showing due deference to the people that built this site, (and that's NOT me, I'm just a peephole) when he says that it's crazy to do exactly what people here have been doing for almost 10 years now, I guess some of you out there find this kind of debate unhealthy for the forum?

friction is just a little heat, at the end of my posts I'm not saying "take that!" or whatever, I'm engaged in a philosophical turn of cards. If someone takes offense for what I've posted or posed in this thread, how sensitive does it make them? From here, a tad...


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## cajunner

and to answer the as-yet unanswered question by ANT, I feel I could create a passive network for myself if need be, and I have done so on several occasions but to say they were better than what the car audio components the manufacturers are capable of, not really.

It is hit and miss with the passives, way too much outside of the tables and graphs for the art to emerge, that a single person devising their own passive networks would be doing it for the love of the hobby more than their desire to one-up the manufacturer's efforts.

and I'm not saying the manufacturers necessarily "try" as hard as a dedicated home brew artisan, as some of the passive element selection leaves a lot to be desired, with no roll-off on several hard-coned midranges in the passive sets of leading company products, but on the whole they get a listenable result every time. That is a sticking point, what's good enough for the conglomerate like Harman's bean counter engineering on the mid-line stuff, or what the guy putting together the Mpyre stuff felt was cost-effective to make up some sets with low-playing tweeters, may not be good enough for others who want a little better performance out of their speaker purchase/installs.

That's something I'd bet a low percentage here would agree to being able to do, make a passive that sounds better than the stuff your average component set comes with, but then we're all active anyway, so in that context, we're all okay....


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## cajunner

finbar said:


> It's not unheard of for the component set makers to use off the shelf raw drivers.
> May the "crazy" be with you, in a good way



and there's THIS!

when SoundStream, in it's heyday, went looking for their reference level components, what did they do, build them? NO.

They bought them from ScanSpeak and rebadged them, like a person who wants better than the current state of the car audio art.

They weren't crazy.



CDT got their stuff from VIFA, Alpine had the Scans as well, it's a common practice for car audio companies to raid the home speaker designer shelves for their reference product.

so, in a way, all the people who did the same here, can't be crazy, really..


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## legend94

Losing werewolf was a loss that CANNOT be replaced.


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## rugdnit

legend94 said:


> Losing werewolf was a loss that CANNOT be replaced.


THIS.

Plus... I don't know about some of you guys, but FFS.... I am swamped with work and I have no idea how some of you post troll away all day.


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## finbar

legend94 said:


> Losing werewolf was a loss that CANNOT be replaced.



YES!


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## claydo

If you read the origional post I think it was autocorrected to say crazy anyways......its worded like craze was the intended word.......besides, it was just the man trying to creatively draw attention to the eBay links anyhow. Not saying anyone's right or wrong, and I get the feeling that there's always a lot more to the discussions I'm privilage to see coming from behind the scenes anyways. I pick up a lot of hostility between mods and some of the long time members here on a regular basis.


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## ANT

cajunner said:


> by saying "There used to be a crazy...


Ah...
The confusion is in my spelling error.
I meant to type.. "There used to be a craze..." 

Changes everything, huh?

ANT


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## ocuriel

:lurk:

I really loved the "crazed" days. I learned so much back then. I used to love reading the reviews on raw drivers. Learned what the driver numbers meant and if they would work in my applications. I've had my share of drivers that flat out did not belong in an automobile, but also came across drivers that were leaps and bounds better than main stream gear. 

I have really come to appreciate Dayton gear. So affordable yet reliable with top tier SQ. 

I have been away for a few years and coming back, this is such a different forum. It is obviously thriving and I'm happy for DIYMA. One thing I think this forum lacks now is reviews.


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## claydo

Ya, I thought that's what it was supposed to say, at least that's how it read anyways...


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## I800C0LLECT

I don't plan on throwing anybody under the bus but the "raw driver crowd" got pushed to the side a long time ago. Lots of new members came in voiced opinions. The Raw driver crowd would peek in, ask for logical thought process behind an opinion and an ensuing ban war would take place because the new membership was up in arms over a lot of legit questions.

Lycan, Wolf, and whatever other names he had came and went several times because of the trolling that took place due to opinions vs. calculated thought processes.

What few members remain from back then tend to keep their technical drivel to themselves these days. I miss it. A lot. I spent 3 years just reading this forum before I joined in 2009. It wasn't because I was intimidated...it was because I was learning so much and I didn't need to comment in order to find an answer.

Prime example is the term "rear fill" Wolf/Lycan went after this one. Subtract L-R, bandpass ~300hz thru ~3khz and add about 20ms of delay. Has anybody seen the comments to that thread? It's ridiculously long because nobody cared to read the thought process. Just a bunch of comments that equate to "rear fill is stupid!". Well Lycan pointed out that rear stereo is stupid and backed up his statements.

Npdang and the klippel is another nightmare I won't discuss.

But what all NEW members need to know is that this site was established on the foundation of DIY with RAW drivers. It was a huge epiphany to some to realize that the same raw drivers used in a $3k+ retail set could be had for $500.

I just wish I had the brain to continue a lot of the old discussions.


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## cajunner

DIYMA said:


> Ah...
> The confusion is in my spelling error.
> I meant to type.. "There used to be a craze..."
> 
> Changes everything, huh?
> 
> ANT


thought you were calling me crazy!

heh, it does make a difference. 

it is still a craze, though.

well, a long, well-reasoned, plateau of a craze but I get where you're coming from.

I didn't want to believe that the click-thru pennies was the impetus for poking the people that still believe... and I didn't have anything to do with lycan's exit at stage left, just to be sure nobody thinks that was my fault..


anyways, we're all a little bit crazy.


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## I800C0LLECT

I'm not mad, hope nobody thinks otherwise...it's nice to see a post to purchase some nice gear!

Hope this is the start to some interesting topics :>


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## Leonard77

Just thought I'd pitch in. I've used car audio speakers before, but once I switched to raw drivers from home audio brands, ain't no way I'm going back.

Raw drivers offer far better value-to-performance, like Vifa, SEAS and Scan-Speak. Speakers from Micro Precision, Ground Zero Reference, Focal are waaaaaaay overpriced in my humble opinion.

Currently I'm using Scan Illuminators and they scare the hell out of other guys who use those aforementioned brands in their setup. The best part is the Illuminators, while not exactly cheap, cost a fraction of say Micro P Studio Z speakers.

Sorry to digress. But as for putting together a crossover (I run pure passive, BTW), yes they can be expensive depending on the components, but the upsides are great:

1) You save on amplification channels. All I use is one Arc Audio 2150SE for my entire soundstage. So instead of spending lots on another high-end amp or two, the money goes into the crossover components.

2) Once you get good components like Duelund, Mundorf, etc. the sound is like nothing a full-active system can achieve. You get timbral accuracy, tonality, and a sound quality that is organic to the ear.

Anyhoo, this is all IMHO. Here are some pics of the Scans in my setup and the crossover. Peace out, and enjoy the music : )


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## 07azhhr

eisnerracing said:


> - active yes but custom panels are made to the shape of a drivers and not all drives share the same size


Even though I was using HAT L3's at the time, when I built my kicks I built them to be able to house up to a 130mm driver. I actually went thru Parts Express and Madisound and looked up the dimensions of many of the 4's and 4.5's so that I could build them to fit the largest of them. This allows me the opertunity to try a large amount of drivers without worrying about making new kicks . Even the Dayton RS125 if I wanted too. Currently I have replaced the L3's with Peerless HDS 4's. These are my first true raw drivers.


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## QuakerMan

My 2¢...

There isn't much point in rehashing the raw drivers vs. car audio discussion. The logic and science is clear on this. 

Is it just me or does it seem like several posters above may not be posting on their own behalf? I'm not trying trying to stir **** but this thread seams to be at the center of a way bigger story, much of which is hidden from the public eye. Not entirely sure what's at stake here. But I'm curious to know how several of the posters above can back up the claim that this site is still on a positive course? I have been doing a ton of reading and find myself having to dig DEEP into the archives to find any good technical reading not containing some sort of marketing agenda, Diyma political drama, or troll banter.


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## cajunner

QuakerMan said:


> Diyma political drama, or troll banter.


some of my best work, ha!

normally I'm not very opinionated but getting behind this ol' keyboard and looking out at the entirety of the world, I start to feel like I can do anything, I start to feel like I am destined for something bigger.

I think I'll have a cookie now, them oatmeal cremes look pretty dapper in their fine focus, QuakerMan...


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## PaulD

I remember Scott B talking about costs. Someone asked why his low line was the same or a little more than the medium line. His answer was what you would expect - the grills, mounting hardware and passives included in the low line are a big cost. Many of the car audio rebadges also had a coating on them the help with UV and moisture. Also, not everyone is capable of making custom wood/fiberglass enclosures. The raw driver crowd was for that VERY small minority of real car audiophiles not for the masses.


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## ANT

QuakerMan said:


> My 2¢...
> 
> There isn't much point in rehashing the raw drivers vs. car audio discussion. The logic and science is clear on this.
> 
> Is it just me or does it seem like several posters above may not be posting on their own behalf? I'm not trying trying to stir **** but this thread seams to be at the center of a way bigger story, much of which is hidden from the public eye. Not entirely sure what's at stake here. But I'm curious to know how several of the posters above can back up the claim that this site is still on a positive course? I have been doing a ton of reading and find myself having to dig DEEP into the archives to find any good technical reading not containing some sort of marketing agenda, Diyma political drama, or troll banter.




um... what?




Whooodat? said:


> Does custom oatmeal seem like a craze?



Great 2nd post..


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## legend94

one thing i like about this site that eca did not have is the ability to have a discussion and not get banned. the owner/mods here give flexibility until the point that its obvious a troll is among us. we have plenty that are borderline here


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## ANT

legend94 said:


> one thing i like about this site that eca did not have is the ability to have a discussion and not get banned. the owner/mods here give flexibility until the point that its obvious a troll is among us. we have plenty that are borderline here


To an extent.
Trolls will always be banned, sometime I just let them linger for a few days and wait for them to say something really stupid.
Light ribbing, and having fun is one thing. Being an all out douche bag is something else, and deserving of a ban. Once they cross that point I ban them.

I just did a search for other posts by the troll in this thread, and found that he took an image of my head and pasted it on a midget body builder..
Eh.. banned..

ANT


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## I800C0LLECT

That's kinda funny  Hate it when that happens...


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## SaturnSL1

If I take some home audio towers or bookshelves and strip the speakers out of them, am I technically using raw drivers?


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## Bayboy

Before I found out about this site (can't remember how I stumbled across it) I was a long time member on another site where arguments was minimal, but so was creativity. Most used car audio brands and talked about how to solve install issues. I participated much and am still a member, but I would take a guess to say I was a bit off from the norm.

I've been using raw drivers for a long time now and even before I was on the other site. Every now & then I will buy car audio drivers only to realize you don't really get what you pay for when compared to raw. Money has to go into the branding, wiring, passives and all the other little conveniences that go with it. Although there are good buys, they also are very costly as well as you have no control over if they match your vehicle's acoustics. Meaning you still have to manipulate the response, so that is why I opt for raw. I have more say in my purchase and it costs far less! I won't piss on car audio ever, but I've never had the funds or simply couldn't justify spending such that some gear requires. I'm satisfied with my outcomes.

The debate on passives is futile! Why is that even brought up when going fully active is also mostly pushed?!  Even active with dinosaur processing from products like Audiocontrol negates that weak "passives cost too much" argument. Not to mention, going fully active opens doors to utilize whatever you want, when you want. 

I currently use a mix of raw & car audio, and I can tell you now, even after purchasing some of the latest forum boners I doubt very highly I will continue on that journey. Too much to be had in raw, much less in cost, and the cost vs quality is undeniably there! Call me what you want, but I don't give a hoot! Been doing this before I came here and will continue if I should leave or the site disappears. I attribute my knowledge on that from reading books like Dickason and such. I've learned much from here as well, but you have to know when to stay on course and not follow the waves of fads & boners that comes & goes.


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## Bayboy

SaturnSL1 said:


> If I take some home audio towers or bookshelves and strip the speakers out of them, am I technically using raw drivers?



Why yes you are! As long as you are able to extract or are aware of their T/S parameters then there's no difference.


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## MacLeod

Ive been here a while but havent been that super active and mostly hung out in the 12V Events section so I guess I missed it but is there some kind of segregation between guys using raw drivers vs the component kits? Maybe Im naive but why should that matter at all? If I go buy some Revelator mids and Illuminator tweeters for my car I dont see how that makes me any more or any less a car audio enthusiast than if Id bought a set of Focal K2P's off Crutchfield. I thought this site was about doing **** yourself as in the install and tuning and all that. What does it matter if its a Scan mid bought from Madisound or a JL component set bought from Crutchfield. As long as youre doing the buying, install and tuning yourself as opposed to dropping it off at a shop along with a blank check, isnt that still what DIYMA is all about and not which retailer you bought it from? :shrug:

FWIW I think this is still a damn good site and there is a lot of knowledge to be found here. It might be changing but I dont think its going downhill but like I said, Ive not been that super active here so maybe Im missing it.


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## Bayboy

There has always seemed to be some sort of divide. I can logically understand the argument that is presented by those who desire a lot of the boutique brands and upper tier items, but most tend to ignore the credentials of going raw. Both have pros & cons, but knocking one or the other is quite ignorant especially when it was revealed that some were merely rebadged raw drivers anyway.

You will see quite a bit of that argument presented in slick ways when someone posts up a suggestion thread. I can say that by using raw you at least have the option to model and that to me is a big necessity when I put a system together. Not too many car specific brands offer that info. You either go with what they have to offer or by word of mouth which to me is not enough for every vehicle is totally different. I can admit that's being a bit anal about driver options, but isn't how this hobby is? Else we all would be just using just about any stuff off of the shelves including lesser tier items.

In this hobby it's all about to each their own, but getting the proper info & assistance is a major key except when you're pushed into using only specific brands or you're deemed to have an inferior setup. That's no longer the hobby, that's just pure snobbery which helps no one!


----------



## I800C0LLECT

There isn't a split based on product purchase...just a difference in application of knowledge. Nobody cares about brands around here...unless there's an issue with ethics.


----------



## MacLeod

Bayboy said:


> There has always seemed to be some sort of divide. I can logically understand the argument that is presented by those who desire a lot of the boutique brands and upper tier items, but most tend to ignore the credentials of going raw. Both have pros & cons, but knocking one or the other is quite ignorant especially when it was revealed that some were merely rebadged raw drivers anyway.
> 
> You will see quite a bit of that argument presented in slick ways when someone posts up a suggestion thread. I can say that by using raw you at least have the option to model and that to me is a big necessity when I put a system together. Not too many car specific brands offer that info. You either go with what they have to offer or by word of mouth which to me is not enough for every vehicle is totally different. I can admit that's being a bit anal about driver options, but isn't how this hobby is? Else we all would be just using just about any stuff off of the shelves including lesser tier items.
> 
> In this hobby it's all about to each their own, but getting the proper info & assistance is a major key except when you're pushed into using only specific brands or you're deemed to have an inferior setup. That's no longer the hobby, that's just pure snobbery which helps no one!


Yeah I can see the argument for each side. There is an appeal to just buying a set of Focal K2P's and not have to worry about it theyll work in doors or fit in the doors or handle the car environment. And there is an appeal for those that want to do all the research and trial and error involved in putting the components together by themselves. Saying one is wrong over another is silly though. Theyre just different approaches to the same end result. I like gin, you might like whiskey. Who cares, we're both after the same thing, a good buzz.


----------



## Bayboy

MacLeod said:


> Yeah I can see the argument for each side. There is an appeal to just buying a set of Focal K2P's and not have to worry about it theyll work in doors or fit in the doors or handle the car environment. And there is an appeal for those that want to do all the research and trial and error involved in putting the components together by themselves. Saying one is wrong over another is silly though. Theyre just different approaches to the same end result. I like gin, you might like whiskey. Who cares, we're both after the same thing, a good buzz.




Exactly! Also remember there is a lot of that argument staked in parameters suitable for IB (car door) while it has been proven time & time again that it really doesn't matter if you're not using the driver down to it's resonance and/or for the system's bottom (no sub). Even I've tested car audio drivers and found that some were not actually IB specific as thought, but performed anyway. Tested some raw drivers and found some to be better than thought in application.

I still have the Jamo clearance mids and for a budget install they work pretty damn good! High & low extension, with a deep punch is pretty impressive and not just for what they cost ($9). When switched out with recent forum boners it was unbelievable of the minute difference with the Jamo taking the lead. Others dismissed them because of the surrounds pulling away when applying screws to mount them. My fix: Xacto knife to trim rubber around the screw holes & CA glue to secure the surround back to the frame. How simple is that? Something I would have expected anyone here to do, yet they dismissed them because "they're only $9 drivers"???... What do you call that?

My point in that is the same lesson I've learned over the years... money & brand doesn't always equate to optimal application. With that, how can anyone deny the use of such items without a full audition. Creativity & effort seems mostly given to big ticket items and that isn't a fair assessment by all means.


----------



## Whoooodat?

I love how when you get banned from DIYMA you start getting spam email, but the only way to unsubscribe is to log in...but you can't because you're banned.


----------



## mrbrian200

The use of component drivers not specific to mobile audio is generally considered by those looking to produce audiophile/studio quality sound. Note here I am primarily addressing the mid bass-midrange-treble range.

I don't discourage the use of "home" drivers in mobile applications, I've certainly done it.

There are a couple important rules of thumb regarding audiophile quality design that need to be taken into account.

1. Ordinary drivers and an extraordinary crossover will sound better than extraordinary drivers mated to a so-so crossover just about every time.

2. Ordinary drivers in an extraordinary baffle will sound better than extraordinary drivers in a so-so baffle much of the time.

B&W VM1's are an excellent example of these two points, $15 woofer, $5 tweeter, a well designed enclosure and a custom well designed crossover (easily the most expensive "part" inside). Most people agree the VM1's achieve "audiophile" sound, albeit not on the top tier. 

The point is: using audiophile quality "home" drivers in a mobile application isn't likely to make as much of a difference over high quality "mobile" products as you would think. To pull it off you need fabrication and technical expertise (and time!) to properly design the support elements to make reference quality drivers perform well. Baffle design in a mobile environment is problematic at best. Crossover design is highly technical, beyond the ability of the average DIY who typically a lacks high degree understanding of OHMS law, resistance, capacitance, inductance, acoustics, etc...

Point #1 is actually a quote from someone else, credit: Crossovers 101

Point #2 is my own experience using HQ component "home" drivers in a mobile installation. They rarely sound as good in the car installation as they do in a well designed/constructed "home" enclosure. The difference primarily is the enclosure/baffle that is relatively difficult to accomplish in a car (particularly dash, kick panel/door). HQ drivers mounted in a traditional "box" enclosure placed in the car sound generally sound "right". Take them out of the box, installed "in the car" in comparison generally I would say "forget it". The amount of effort necessary to properly enclose dash/door/panel speakers is generally in "forget it" territory, often literally impossible.

Note I own a pair of VM1s, my primary front speakers on my home theater setup. My VM1s are modified: did the opposite of what is being discussed here (used a "mobile" product installed in a "home" speaker). I wasn't thrilled with VM1s stock $5 tweeter and used a mobile 1" neo titanium dome driver (Lanzar TWS) to upgrade. The TWS really shine when you separate them from the atrocious HP filters they are supplied with and feed them through a well designed crossover. Performance on the low end (crossover range) of both tweeters is comparable, and the VM1s stock tweeter is 4 ohm with fixed resistance built into the crossover. Most HQ "home" tweeters have large magnets/baffles that wouldn't fit inside the VM1 and throw off the woofer/enclosure tuning to boot.


----------



## BuickGN

Whoooodat? said:


> I love how when you get banned from DIYMA you start getting spam email, but the only way to unsubscribe is to log in...but you can't because you're banned.


That sucks. Even though I would like to put in my 02 on the topic I just can't be a part of this thread and have a clear conscience.


----------



## ocuriel

DIYMA said:


> To an extent.
> I just did a search for other posts by the troll in this thread, and found that he took an image of my head and pasted it on a midget body builder..
> Eh.. banned..
> 
> ANT


You have to share now.


----------



## 07azhhr

Whoooodat? said:


> I love how when you get banned from DIYMA you start getting spam email, but the only way to unsubscribe is to log in...but you can't because you're banned.


 
So what you are saying is that you got banned and now have created a new account so you can come back in here and stir **** up! :thumbsdown:


----------



## BigAl205

DIYMA said:


> he took an image of my head and pasted it on a midget body builder..


That's heightist!


----------



## BuickGN

07azhhr said:


> So what you are saying is that you got banned and now have created a new account so you can come back in here and stir **** up! :thumbsdown:


It's pretty serious if you get spammed whenever you get banned and can't stop it from happening without logging in. Luckily my main email is different than what I give to forums like these for registration.


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## 07azhhr

BuickGN said:


> It's pretty serious if you get spammed whenever you get banned and can't stop it from happening without logging in. Luckily my main email is different than what I give to forums like these for registration.


I get tonsof spam all the time. I get emails from this site too. If you look back at the other post by that guy you can see he is spiteful. If he was here soley to get the so called spam taken care of then all he would have done was contact Ant to help him unregister. But to post is showing that he just wants to stir **** up. Seen it many many times.


----------



## SaturnSL1

Maybe he's spiteful because getting banned over hurting someones feelings is a crock of ****? Moderator or not you're a human just like us so why should you be allowed to ban someone when you're in a tizzy?

I've had some well known members say some rotten **** to me behind closed doors but they are still here to this day. Special treatment perhaps?

Ban someone because they posted illegal material or they are spamming or whatever, not because they made your feelings hurt.


----------



## 07azhhr

SaturnSL1 said:


> Maybe he's spiteful because getting banned over hurting someones feelings is a crock of ****? Moderator or not you're a human just like us so why should you be allowed to ban someone when you're in a tizzy?
> 
> I've had some well known members say some rotten **** to me behind closed doors but they are still here to this day. Special treatment perhaps?
> 
> Ban someone because they posted illegal material or they are spamming or whatever, not because they made your feelings hurt.


Do you know why that person was banned? Are you saying you know who that is? Behind closed doors? Then who is going to know about it but you and them lol?


----------



## Whoooodat?

07azhhr said:


> So what you are saying is that you got banned and now have created a new account so you can come back in here and stir **** up! :thumbsdown:


No, I'm just pointing out activity that violates the CAN-SPAM Act



CAN-SPAM Act: A Compliance Guide for Business | BCP Business Center


> 5. Tell recipients how to opt out of receiving future email from you. Your message must include a clear and conspicuous explanation of how the recipient can opt out of getting email from you in the future. Craft the notice in a way that’s easy for an ordinary person to recognize, read, and understand. Creative use of type size, color, and location can improve clarity. Give a return email address or another easy Internet-based way to allow people to communicate their choice to you. You may create a menu to allow a recipient to opt out of certain types of messages, but you must include the option to stop all commercial messages from you. Make sure your spam filter doesn’t block these opt-out requests.


from the email 


> Diyma.com, DIYMobileaudio.com and Collova Media Inc. are responsible for this email. When you signed up to the forum you gave us authorization to send you emails. To remove yourself click here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...nsubscribeid=67998&unsubscribeinfo=143ba3b307 To visit the DIYMA store, click here, www.diyma.com, To visit the car audio community forum & bulletin board, click here www.diymobileaudio.com/forum


How do I unsubscribe?


----------



## cajunner

after a good nap I have come here to state, matter of factly, that spam is a tasty and nutritious meat source.

it's good pan fried, wrapped in a sticky rice roll using sheet nori.

I think they call it a hand roll, give me a hand, I'm on a roll...


oh, and topical, the raw driver market seems to be faring well, but so many beloved products have gone by the wayside now.

Aura made a big splash and now they're laptop speaker makers, it's a shame. Audax, a shell of their former glory, little brands like Ascendant and Mpyre, using the newest technologies and materials, are either poorly run by the idea guy or sold out to a corporate plan. But having the option, is what makes it great. I probably won't ever buy Dynaudio packaged car sets, and now you can't buy them a la carte, the industry is against the value shopper that circumvents the normal channels. 

Catering to the crowds that decide bi and tri amplification aren't too complex of a beast, you get new DSP options where it makes even more sense to have access to a thriving market of raw drivers. If it made financial sense, you'd see more TOTL drivers available separate from their expensive crossover kit format.


----------



## 07azhhr

Whoooodat? said:


> No, I'm just pointing out activity that violates the CAN-SPAM Act
> 
> 
> 
> CAN-SPAM Act: A Compliance Guide for Business | BCP Business Center
> 
> 
> from the email
> 
> How do I unsubscribe?


Like I said you make the account you made then ONLY contact the admin to help you out. 

I get TONS of spam that violtes that act you posted about. I just blacklist them and be done with it because guess what, there is no way for the powers to be to enforce such an act. 

That part of the email is the opt out info. Their email link works so does it violate that act?


----------



## BigAl205

IMO, anybody who uses raw drivers are _probably_ also using an active crossover


----------



## 07azhhr

BigAl205 said:


> IMO, anybody who uses raw drivers are _probably_ also using an active crossover


Many on here are also using active xo's on car audio drivers. All my home speakers are using passives yet my car drivers are run active LOL.


----------



## Whoooodat?

07azhhr said:


> Like I said you make the account you made then ONLY contact the admin to help you out.


You mean the same admin that banned me for posting a funny pic?


----------



## 07azhhr

Whoooodat? said:


> You mean the same admin that banned me for posting a funny pic?


 
Yes I do Quakerman. Or contact 6speed. But either way by contacting them directly it shows that you are sincere in your desire to get the issue of not receiving the emails handled in a professional manner even though you are upset for being banned. By coming in and making posts like you did it looks more like spite driving your desire to stir **** up. 

Also how did that post in any way let people know about that Can-Spam act possible violation. And how many of us do you think actually knew about the act in the first place?


----------



## cajunner

I guess if you'd stop getting banned you wouldn't have a problem with spam, huh...

maybe put the horse before the cart?


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## BuickGN

cajunner said:


> after a good nap I have come here to state, matter of factly, that spam is a tasty and nutritious meat source.
> 
> it's good pan fried, wrapped in a sticky rice roll using sheet nori.
> 
> I think they call it a hand roll, give me a hand, I'm on a roll...
> 
> 
> oh, and topical, the raw driver market seems to be faring well, but so many beloved products have gone by the wayside now.
> 
> Aura made a big splash and now they're laptop speaker makers, it's a shame. Audax, a shell of their former glory, little brands like Ascendant and Mpyre, using the newest technologies and materials, are either poorly run by the idea guy or sold out to a corporate plan. But having the option, is what makes it great. I probably won't ever buy Dynaudio packaged car sets, and now you can't buy them a la carte, the industry is against the value shopper that circumvents the normal channels.
> 
> Catering to the crowds that decide bi and tri amplification aren't too complex of a beast, you get new DSP options where it makes even more sense to have access to a thriving market of raw drivers. If it made financial sense, you'd see more TOTL drivers available separate from their expensive crossover kit format.


I don't understand the Dyn comments. You can get the 242, 342, 362, and other component sets with crossovers. You can also buy each separately. The Esotar car audio speakers were originally only available as raw drivers, crossovers came a few years later. The Esotar tweeter is essentially unchanged from the home audio version. The e650 is almost the same used in home audio along with the 152, 162, 172, 182, etc. The Esotar 430 midrange is the only one I'm aware of that is not a slightly modded home audio speaker. Did I miss something or take it the wrong way?


----------



## cajunner

BuickGN said:


> I don't understand the Dyn comments. You can get the 242, 342, 362, and other component sets with crossovers. You can also buy each separately. The Esotar car audio speakers were originally only available as raw drivers, crossovers came a few years later. The Esotar tweeter is essentially unchanged from the home audio version. The e650 is almost the same used in home audio along with the 152, 162, 172, 182, etc. The Esotar 430 midrange is the only one I'm aware of that is not a slightly modded home audio speaker. Did I miss something or take it the wrong way?


my mistake, I believe I read somewhere that Dynaudio was no longer making drivers available for the home DIY market.

All their car audio stuff will need to be purchased by their dealer networks and the home stuff is going into cabinets as Dyn product or it's going OEM to another speaker company for re-badging.


----------



## eisnerracing

BigAl205 said:


> IMO, anybody who uses raw drivers are _probably_ also using an active crossover


if passive crossovers are built correctly then they can sound really good 

home audio has been doing this for years in very high end speakers like martin logan, sonus faber, vienna acoustics etc. You get the point

looks like the key is to built a passive with interchangeable values because raw drivers will sound and act different in a car environment , size of enclosure, baffle, materials, cloth interior or leather etc.



built by Werner Jagusch They are auto former based. You can choose from several crossover points to adjust the sound [9 high adjustments AND 2 low adjustments on each side].As well, there is an attenuator on each side for fine tuning the sound.


----------



## BuickGN

cajunner said:


> my mistake, I believe I read somewhere that Dynaudio was no longer making drivers available for the home DIY market.
> 
> All their car audio stuff will need to be purchased by their dealer networks and the home stuff is going into cabinets as Dyn product or it's going OEM to another speaker company for re-badging.


You're right about the home audio end, no more raw drivers. I wish that wasn't the case as the selection, maybe even the price would be better but I honestly can't remember many people using Dyn home speakers other than the tweeters in their cars but I could be wrong.


----------



## eisnerracing

well i found a small way round that i wanted to build a matching center channel at home for my Jamo speakers - called jamo for two replacemnt drivers not bad price and had them in 3 days - center sounds as good as the towers


----------



## MacLeod

Where can you buy Dynaudio raw car audio drivers? I really want some new mids and there is nothing on Madisound or Parts Express that I want and that will fit (2.5" depth limit) and am about ready to whip out my Crutchfield credit card and pick up a set of K2P's.


----------



## BuickGN

You can buy any of the car audio drivers by themselves. Here's a link to the available car audio drivers both raw and as a set: http://www.dynaudio.com/int/pdf/DYN_Automotive_Brochure_INT.pdf 

There are a couple of good Dyn dealers on this forum. I buy mine from Jerry (Niebur3), nothing but great experiences with him. 

The only ones I see that would meet your depth requirement would be the Esotar 430 midrange and Esotec 142 midrange and the 162GT midbass. The Esotar 650 midbass is 2.6" deep, not sure if you have any wiggle room.


----------



## miniSQ

I800C0LLECT said:


> I don't plan on throwing anybody under the bus but the "raw driver crowd" got pushed to the side a long time ago. Lots of new members came in voiced opinions. The Raw driver crowd would peek in, ask for logical thought process behind an opinion and an ensuing ban war would take place because the new membership was up in arms over a lot of legit questions.
> 
> Lycan, Wolf, and whatever other names he had came and went several times because of the trolling that took place due to opinions vs. calculated thought processes.
> 
> What few members remain from back then tend to keep their technical drivel to themselves these days. I miss it. A lot. I spent 3 years just reading this forum before I joined in 2009. It wasn't because I was intimidated...it was because I was learning so much and I didn't need to comment in order to find an answer.
> 
> Prime example is the term "rear fill" Wolf/Lycan went after this one. Subtract L-R, bandpass ~300hz thru ~3khz and add about 20ms of delay. Has anybody seen the comments to that thread? It's ridiculously long because nobody cared to read the thought process. Just a bunch of comments that equate to "rear fill is stupid!". Well Lycan pointed out that rear stereo is stupid and backed up his statements.
> 
> Npdang and the klippel is another nightmare I won't discuss.
> 
> But what all NEW members need to know is that this site was established on the foundation of DIY with RAW drivers. It was a huge epiphany to some to realize that the same raw drivers used in a $3k+ retail set could be had for $500.
> 
> I just wish I had the brain to continue a lot of the old discussions.



i remember arguing on the phone with eric holdaway in the very early 90's that he was selling a $159 12" NHT for $400, and that his 6.5 comps were just dynaudio 17w175's and no matter how good of am installer he was , doing what he was doing was ********. This was before internet....


----------



## BuickGN

I800C0LLECT said:


> I don't plan on throwing anybody under the bus but the "raw driver crowd" got pushed to the side a long time ago. Lots of new members came in voiced opinions. The Raw driver crowd would peek in, ask for logical thought process behind an opinion and an ensuing ban war would take place because the new membership was up in arms over a lot of legit questions.
> 
> Lycan, Wolf, and whatever other names he had came and went several times because of the trolling that took place due to opinions vs. calculated thought processes.
> 
> What few members remain from back then tend to keep their technical drivel to themselves these days. I miss it. A lot. I spent 3 years just reading this forum before I joined in 2009. It wasn't because I was intimidated...it was because I was learning so much and I didn't need to comment in order to find an answer.
> 
> Prime example is the term "rear fill" Wolf/Lycan went after this one. Subtract L-R, bandpass ~300hz thru ~3khz and add about 20ms of delay. Has anybody seen the comments to that thread? It's ridiculously long because nobody cared to read the thought process. Just a bunch of comments that equate to "rear fill is stupid!". Well Lycan pointed out that rear stereo is stupid and backed up his statements.
> 
> Npdang and the klippel is another nightmare I won't discuss.
> 
> But what all NEW members need to know is that this site was established on the foundation of DIY with RAW drivers. It was a huge epiphany to some to realize that the same raw drivers used in a $3k+ retail set could be had for $500.
> 
> I just wish I had the brain to continue a lot of the old discussions.


I agree with a lot of this but the attitude of the raw driver crowd turned me off to raw drivers. The elitist attitude that they know something I don't know because I chose a component set got old quick. It's the same attitude you get if you spend more than $200 on a front stage. You're automatically labeled as clueless and you have more money than brains and you could have gotten the same performance for $2. Raw home audio drivers aren't automatically better than components and car audio specific raw drivers and while there are some real gems out there that don't cost much, most of the time the more expensive stuff is better. Don't get me wrong, finding great stuff for cheap is what we all want but spending a fair amount of money for some really good speakers is almost looked down upon.

I wish there was more open mindedness from both sides. It seems like once an idea like all rear fill is bad gets out there it's repeated over and over as fact without ever questioning the idea.

I like the Klippel and it's always going to be a heated topic. I think it's great for eliminating certain drivers from consideration but I don't believe it can tell you how a speaker, especially in the front stage will sound, not at all. I'm trying to get Erin to test my Dyn 182 midbasses knowing something out there will outperform them in some area and their cost and the owner's sanity will be questioned but I still like to have objective data.


----------



## eisnerracing

MacLeod said:


> Where can you buy Dynaudio raw car audio drivers? I really want some new mids and there is nothing on Madisound or Parts Express that I want and that will fit (2.5" depth limit) and am about ready to whip out my Crutchfield credit card and pick up a set of K2P's.


here is an idea the VW CC upgraded audio has dynaudio speakers 
maybe a parts yard and rob the mid drivers cheap 

just a thought 
here is what the cc has in it 

VW CC Dynaudio Premium Doors Speakers | eBay


----------



## cajunner

BuickGN said:


> I agree with a lot of this but the attitude of the raw driver crowd turned me off to raw drivers. The elitist attitude that they know something I don't know because I chose a component set got old quick. It's the same attitude you get if you spend more than $200 on a front stage. You're automatically labeled as clueless and you have more money than brains and you could have gotten the same performance for $2. Raw home audio drivers aren't automatically better than components and car audio specific raw drivers and while there are some real gems out there that don't cost much, most of the time the more expensive stuff is better. Don't get me wrong, finding great stuff for cheap is what we all want but spending a fair amount of money for some really good speakers is almost looked down upon.
> 
> I wish there was more open mindedness from both sides. It seems like once an idea like all rear fill is bad gets out there it's repeated over and over as fact without ever questioning the idea.
> 
> I like the Klippel and it's always going to be a heated topic. I think it's great for eliminating certain drivers from consideration but I don't believe it can tell you how a speaker, especially in the front stage will sound, not at all. I'm trying to get Erin to test my Dyn 182 midbasses knowing something out there will outperform them in some area and their cost and the owner's sanity will be questioned but I still like to have objective data.


I'm pretty open-minded, when it comes to rear fill....

wait, don't, haha..

now, the Klippel is a place where audio brand snobbery goes to die, and some would say that's bad because it's a hero killer. You love your dyn's and you might be willing to tolerate seeing a poor performance from them on the Klippel, but there are quite a few who would attempt to stop that nonsense. Some may even run this place, lol....


the loss of the Klippel in concrete terms means the status quo gets to continue, the push for and sale of high-dollar inventory is at stake, and things like shootouts that are comprised of subjective rankings and given equal merit as the Klippel section in this forum, are towards those profit ends.

not that this place needs a rudder but if you look closely you can see the drift, and eventual target area reached not the same as when npdang was doing his heavy testing and minimal subjective notes. And, wasn't selling the product, except for his DIYMA 12, an attempt at greatness based on his knowledge. 

Now, that might make me unpopular in certain quarters, but I believe the ability to debate, the freedom to argue the merits of a commercialized zone versus a friendly discussion and ruthless examination of the products, should be in play here.


----------



## BigAl205

eisnerracing said:


> if passive crossovers are built correctly then they can sound really good
> 
> home audio has been doing this for years in very high end speakers like martin logan, sonus faber, vienna acoustics etc. You get the point
> 
> looks like the key is to built a passive with interchangeable values because raw drivers will sound and act different in a car environment , size of enclosure, baffle, materials, cloth interior or leather etc.
> 
> 
> 
> built by Werner Jagusch They are auto former based. You can choose from several crossover points to adjust the sound [9 high adjustments AND 2 low adjustments on each side].As well, there is an attenuator on each side for fine tuning the sound.


I wasn't trying to imply that there was a problem with passive x-overs, I was just making the point that the true old-school DIY crowd (the ones who pic drivers based on performance, not just a matching brand name) usually like the flexibility of a fully-active setup.


----------



## SPLEclipse

I (consciously or not) almost universally pick the product that will be the biggest pain in the ass to work with. It's classification doesn't matter too much.


----------



## eisnerracing

BigAl205 said:


> I wasn't trying to imply that there was a problem with passive x-overs, I was just making the point that the true old-school DIY crowd (the ones who pic drivers based on performance, not just a matching brand name) usually like the flexibility of a fully-active setup.


I got that but when u say old school what yrs are u referring to?
the first active crossovers 1 way or 2 way I don't think 3 way with a band pass
Section did come till around mid 90s before that there wasn't that option unless you double stacked 2 ways crossovers - I did that back in the day with Orion and Rockford 

I always get confused when people say old school to me.
I guess for me since I've been installing professionally for 23 yr 
It would be pre time correction (digitally that is) below 1995 ish I guess 

But then again I remember old school fun tring to build passive load matching
Crossovers to run an entire system on one amp for the Isaac up 50 class 51-100
I don't miss those days


----------



## BuickGN

cajunner said:


> I'm pretty open-minded, when it comes to rear fill....
> 
> wait, don't, haha..
> 
> now, the Klippel is a place where audio brand snobbery goes to die, and some would say that's bad because it's a hero killer. You love your dyn's and you might be willing to tolerate seeing a poor performance from them on the Klippel, but there are quite a few who would attempt to stop that nonsense. Some may even run this place, lol....
> 
> 
> the loss of the Klippel in concrete terms means the status quo gets to continue, the push for and sale of high-dollar inventory is at stake, and things like shootouts that are comprised of subjective rankings and given equal merit as the Klippel section in this forum, are towards those profit ends.
> 
> not that this place needs a rudder but if you look closely you can see the drift, and eventual target area reached not the same as when npdang was doing his heavy testing and minimal subjective notes. And, wasn't selling the product, except for his DIYMA 12, an attempt at greatness based on his knowledge.
> 
> Now, that might make me unpopular in certain quarters, but I believe the ability to debate, the freedom to argue the merits of a commercialized zone versus a friendly discussion and ruthless examination of the products, should be in play here.


The problem with that is no one has shown speakers that do better on the klippel sound better. It's good for determining crossover points and showing true xmax, and a bunch of other things to use for eliminating a speaker from your selection but no one has shown that what klippels well sounds well. Otherwise we would just go to the klippel section, pick what klippels the best an everyone would be running the same speakers. 

I put more faith in a group of enthusiasts in a double blind listening test because in the end its what we hear that matters, not which one has better klippel numbers. Don't get me wrong, I wish we were able to determine what would sound better based on the klippel alone.


----------



## cajunner

BuickGN said:


> The problem with that is no one has shown speakers that do better on the klippel sound better. It's good for determining crossover points and showing true xmax, and a bunch of other things to use for eliminating a speaker from your selection but no one has shown that what klippels well sounds well. Otherwise we would just go to the klippel section, pick what klippels the best an everyone would be running the same speakers.
> 
> I put more faith in a group of enthusiasts in a double blind listening test because in the end its what we hear that matters, not which one has better klippel numbers. Don't get me wrong, I wish we were able to determine what would sound better based on the klippel alone.



the reverse of that is no one can claim that their speakers Klippel poorly and yet retain great sound quality.

when the Klippel urges the manufacturers into threats of litigation, based on their drivers performing poorly due to manufacturer tolerance issues, that's a sign that the Klippel is exposing the truth about those drivers.

I understand how it might be that a distortion analyzer might indicate a truly distortion-free product and how it might be that some people prefer the tonal colorations of distortion, and then you have observations like you put forth, but the distortion analyzer seems to me, to be the best indicator of performance and subjective reviews that are done by people preparing to open an audio retail shop, with this community for a base, are second fiddle to the machine.

I think the disappearance of the Klippel and the various "boo-boo's" by the ones operating the machine, were orchestrated to remove the Klippel's stature as a determining mechanism, basically it was a concerted effort by several parties that conspired to not let Klippel results get out, first, and if they were out, only used to promote good results. Bad Klippel is automatically questioned, and then the operator's ability is questioned, the equipment used, the rack that holds the DUT, the amplifier, it goes on and on. There was a time when a bad Klippel was just that, people still liked the speakers but a gradual shift towards vilification of certain brands *Morel*cough> due to inconsistency or offsets, has made it less attractive as a tool for forum use.

The admin of this site (6speedcoupe) is a dealer for the same brands that should they be tested, and test poorly, directly affects the amount of speakers that he can push through here. There is a vested interest, and I'm not saying there is causation as to why the Klippel is no longer a forum tool, but there's a possible correlation.

And I'm not saying these things as a way to pressure or throw a negative light on anyone, or their business, or even the products they sell. I am saying them as a way to explain what might not be obvious as to why the general shift from home audio drivers to car audio component sets is occurring.

it's just an opinion, not claiming any of this is facts, I do not believe people will put their own livelihood and reputations on the line and allow Klippel tests to undermine their sales figures.

If it was just another test, like a frequency response curve, there would be less drama. Even bikinpunk's published FR curves get static, and there's been less of those too. He's moving, he's stepping away from the board, he's busy with the new house and all, that's great. But again, anything that attempts to stand objectively these drivers in a competition, is immediately attacked and discouraged, but the subjective comparison of some expensive drivers, wins?

Maybe it IS just me.


----------



## BigAl205

eisnerracing said:


> I got that but when u say old school what yrs are u referring to?
> the first active crossovers 1 way or 2 way I don't think 3 way with a band pass
> Section did come till around mid 90s before that there wasn't that option unless you double stacked 2 ways crossovers - I did that back in the day with Orion and Rockford
> 
> I always get confused when people say old school to me.
> I guess for me since I've been installing professionally for 23 yr
> It would be pre time correction (digitally that is) below 1995 ish I guess
> 
> But then again I remember old school fun tring to build passive load matching
> Crossovers to run an entire system on one amp for the Isaac up 50 class 51-100
> I don't miss those days


In this particular case I was using old school to refer to the "craze" that was mentioned in the OP where members used to try to find value-oriented and often less expensive alternatives to brand name equipment.


----------



## I800C0LLECT

I remember reading about some who would tune ACTIVELY and then create passive crossovers with those same characteristics in an effort to simplify the installation. I thought that was neat.

I think Klippel is only good for those that understand the T/s specs they want for a specific circumstance. Since vehicles and interior materials or shapes change so much I stopped trying to correlate specs with sound. I just throw it in now  The dogma of trying to scientifically understand the relationships wore me out.


----------



## BuickGN

cajunner said:


> the reverse of that is no one can claim that their speakers Klippel poorly and yet retain great sound quality.
> 
> when the Klippel urges the manufacturers into threats of litigation, based on their drivers performing poorly due to manufacturer tolerance issues, that's a sign that the Klippel is exposing the truth about those drivers.
> 
> I understand how it might be that a distortion analyzer might indicate a truly distortion-free product and how it might be that some people prefer the tonal colorations of distortion, and then you have observations like you put forth, but the distortion analyzer seems to me, to be the best indicator of performance and subjective reviews that are done by people preparing to open an audio retail shop, with this community for a base, are second fiddle to the machine.
> 
> I think the disappearance of the Klippel and the various "boo-boo's" by the ones operating the machine, were orchestrated to remove the Klippel's stature as a determining mechanism, basically it was a concerted effort by several parties that conspired to not let Klippel results get out, first, and if they were out, only used to promote good results. Bad Klippel is automatically questioned, and then the operator's ability is questioned, the equipment used, the rack that holds the DUT, the amplifier, it goes on and on. There was a time when a bad Klippel was just that, people still liked the speakers but a gradual shift towards vilification of certain brands *Morel*cough> due to inconsistency or offsets, has made it less attractive as a tool for forum use.
> 
> The admin of this site (6speedcoupe) is a dealer for the same brands that should they be tested, and test poorly, directly affects the amount of speakers that he can push through here. There is a vested interest, and I'm not saying there is causation as to why the Klippel is no longer a forum tool, but there's a possible correlation.
> 
> And I'm not saying these things as a way to pressure or throw a negative light on anyone, or their business, or even the products they sell. I am saying them as a way to explain what might not be obvious as to why the general shift from home audio drivers to car audio component sets is occurring.
> 
> it's just an opinion, not claiming any of this is facts, I do not believe people will put their own livelihood and reputations on the line and allow Klippel tests to undermine their sales figures.
> 
> If it was just another test, like a frequency response curve, there would be less drama. Even bikinpunk's published FR curves get static, and there's been less of those too. He's moving, he's stepping away from the board, he's busy with the new house and all, that's great. But again, anything that attempts to stand objectively these drivers in a competition, is immediately attacked and discouraged, but the subjective comparison of some expensive drivers, wins?
> 
> Maybe it IS just me.


I don't know why we don't have a klippel here anymore. 

I like objective data even if its not in my favor. I agree that if you have a driver that tests very poorly it's going to sound bad. Case in point my short lived awful sounding Massive Audio SK-6 center channel was tested and I believe Erin commented that it was the worst test he had ever seen and it subjectively sounded like crap to me as well. 

It's great that it can expose poor build quality and inconsistencies from driver to driver, especially those you pay a lot of money for. 

Xmax is another thing the klippel is good for. Didn't all but 3 or 4 speakers have less than advertised? If I remember right the higher end speakers were more likely to have realistic ratings with Scan, Dyn, and at least one other high end brand meeting or exceeding ratings. 

Even with distortion, we don't know that the lowest possible distortion sounds the best. It just seems in my opinion that there's a window and if the driver tests within that window, somewhere between average to really good, it's anyone's guess which will sound better. 

Jerry's tests got criticism because he's a dealer but let's not forget he was not a dealer when the midrange shoot out was performed and he was only one of several judges in the mid bass shoot out and being a blind test there's no way he's going to know the "Dynaudio sound" and purposely write a positive review. Short of saying he cheated and lied I don't see how his business affiliation should affect the outcome. Plus, we were all invited to participate in the evaluation so if this was so important, the skeptics should have helped judge. 

I'm not making excuses for drivers that tested poorly, mine did pretty good, but I don't think we're in a position to condemn drivers based on an average klippel performance because we're just not there yet. Maybe in the future. 

Why wouldn't the subjective test have more weight? The end result, what we hear is more important to me than which speaker had .05% THD vs .03%. That's why I say use the klippel to eliminate drivers that don't have the xmax or too much power compression or won't work in the desired bandpass or are inconsistent from driver to driver, etc, and use your ears for final judgement.


----------



## cajunner

BuickGN said:


> I don't know why we don't have a klippel here anymore.
> 
> I like objective data even if its not in my favor. I agree that if you have a driver that tests very poorly it's going to sound bad. Case in point my short lived awful sounding Massive Audio SK-6 center channel was tested and I believe Erin commented that it was the worst test he had ever seen and it subjectively sounded like crap to me as well.
> 
> It's great that it can expose poor build quality and inconsistencies from driver to driver, especially those you pay a lot of money for.
> 
> Xmax is another thing the klippel is good for. Didn't all but 3 or 4 speakers have less than advertised? If I remember right the higher end speakers were more likely to have realistic ratings with Scan, Dyn, and at least one other high end brand meeting or exceeding ratings.
> 
> Even with distortion, we don't know that the lowest possible distortion sounds the best. It just seems in my opinion that there's a window and if the driver tests within that window, somewhere between average to really good, it's anyone's guess which will sound better.
> 
> Jerry's tests got criticism because he's a dealer but let's not forget he was not a dealer when the midrange shoot out was performed and he was only one of several judges in the mid bass shoot out and being a blind test there's no way he's going to know the "Dynaudio sound" and purposely write a positive review. Short of saying he cheated and lied I don't see how his business affiliation should affect the outcome. Plus, we were all invited to participate in the evaluation so if this was so important, the skeptics should have helped judge.
> 
> I'm not making excuses for drivers that tested poorly, mine did pretty good, but I don't think we're in a position to condemn drivers based on an average klippel performance because we're just not there yet. Maybe in the future.
> 
> Why wouldn't the subjective test have more weight? The end result, what we hear is more important to me than which speaker had .05% THD vs .03%. That's why I say use the klippel to eliminate drivers that don't have the xmax or too much power compression or won't work in the desired bandpass or are inconsistent from driver to driver, etc, and use your ears for final judgement.




we can agree, to disagree then. 

I find scientific analysis is going to trump "shootouts" in the long term, simply because the best performing speakers by Klippel measurements, will usually pan out over time.

The Alpine 8" that they got right, since they published the curves, the JL ZR800, same thing. When the manufacturers hit an assembly/engineering home run, you hear/read about it, and it makes a splash because it is a superior performer, then they can charge a bit more for it.

The idea that somehow average performing Klippel specs in a high cost Scandinavian driver should not translate into "not the best there is" makes sense to me, if there is such an animal out there that does better. Excuse me, tests better. Excuse, tests better, objectively.

If Rockford's T5 series is able to outperform Esotars on a Klippel, do you believe there would be some good discussion material coming from that?

Imagine the Klippel testing all the old benchmarks, F1 Series, etc. against the new crop of Micro Precision Z or Phass, or Brax stuff, or hell... the Illusion Carbon's for that matter. Would Bing be able to push his inverted motor brand if it's got Klippel exposed issues?

There's a lot of people who frequent here, and pay those upgraded/vendor/seller fees, who don't like seeing objectivity on the board. As a result, a nice push comes from beneath, to swing the subjective ranking system, the tier thing, into focus so people feel good about spending the money on the imported stuff.


----------



## BuickGN

So which klippel test will guarantee beyond a doubt that one driver will sound better than another? If the Carbon owners are completely satisfied with the sound, is an average klippel going to matter?


----------



## cajunner

BuickGN said:


> So which klippel test will guarantee beyond a doubt that one driver will sound better than another? If the Carbon owners are completely satisfied with the sound, is an average klippel going to matter?


hmm.. smoking gun?


I don't know which, maybe the one that shows up with most non-linearity first?

could be BL, or suspension, or maybe poor quality metal causing eddy currents that are only apparent when nearing Xmax?

I think the problem we're having coming to an agreement on this, is you have faith in people's hearing tests, and I have no problem with that, I also have faith in people's hearing tests. Where we diverge is that I would like the numbers to follow the subjective portion of the program, lol...

Klippel measures several types of distortion and there's no real cut and dry, way to distinguish which driver is guaranteed to sound better based on a mixture of variable profiles, but some correlative evidence would suggest major offsets and operation of the driver in a distorted magnetic field for 80% of the range, would be subjectively worse in comparison to a driver that is able to better those marks. 

And we've seen this. One issue of course, is no matter how great your driver measures, if it doesn't get loud, (say, Pioneer TS101PRS) then you might choose another driver that may not measure as well but can handle more power or has higher efficiency.

That means there are many other things that separate the good from the middling, and Klippel is good at showing limitations. 

Not having the Klippel show those limitations, is the salesman's license to wax poetic on whatever drivers they happen to be pushing that week.


----------



## BuickGN

cajunner said:


> hmm.. smoking gun?
> 
> 
> I don't know which, maybe the one that shows up with most non-linearity first?
> 
> could be BL, or suspension, or maybe poor quality metal causing eddy currents that are only apparent when nearing Xmax?
> 
> I think the problem we're having coming to an agreement on this, is you have faith in people's hearing tests, and I have no problem with that, I also have faith in people's hearing tests. Where we diverge is that I would like the numbers to follow the subjective portion of the program, lol...
> 
> Klippel measures several types of distortion and there's no real cut and dry, way to distinguish which driver is guaranteed to sound better based on a mixture of variable profiles, but some correlative evidence would suggest major offsets and operation of the driver in a distorted magnetic field for 80% of the range, would be subjectively worse in comparison to a driver that is able to better those marks.
> 
> And we've seen this. One issue of course, is no matter how great your driver measures, if it doesn't get loud, (say, Pioneer TS101PRS) then you might choose another driver that may not measure as well but can handle more power or has higher efficiency.
> 
> That means there are many other things that separate the good from the middling, and Klippel is good at showing limitations.
> 
> Not having the Klippel show those limitations, is the salesman's license to wax poetic on whatever drivers they happen to be pushing that week.


I think we agree more than disagree. I too want the klippel's results to follow closely what sounds good and I think that will be possible in the future when people much smarter than myself figure out the intricate relationships. 

I'm sure if any parameter is absolutely terrible, it's going to sound terrible. Look at the Massive Audio SK-6 in the Klippel section if you get the time and want a laugh. The part I have trouble with is even if the average or maybe the upper 50% not necessarily following any particular pattern. The ones I've heard didn't necessarily follow the Klippel's rankings and I wish they would. I think it's great that it can show a speaker's limitations and that's what I meant by using the klippel to help eliminate a driver from your selection.

I'm pro klippel and objective data, I just don't think we can judge a speaker's sound based purely on the klippel assuming nothing is that terrible. 

I don't want to put words in his mouth but I believe Erin said in reference to the midrange that was being tested at the time that a very flat FR might possibly be one of the more important factors. 

I'm trying to get my midbasses tested knowing they will take some heat no matter how good or how bad they do so I will know their limitations. I also wanted to get the regular Dyn 162 midbass tested since I ran both the Esotar 650 and 162 in the same car, same exact setup, and had the Esotar klippeled. I wanted to see if the Klippel would reveal why the Esotar even with similar TS parameters had a cleaner, clearer midrange and stayed clean until it mechanically bottomed but that test never happened.


----------



## BuickGN

About the blind listening tests, I put a lot of weight on those tests as long as there are a decent number of people involved in the listening. Everyone has different tastes but if every tester agrees unanimously on the first place driver, it most likely sounds pretty good. I've literally had people think their Infinity systems sound better because my tweeters don't have enough of that "sssss" sound and keep in mind the Esotar tweeter is very sharp but it's just not harsh. But that's where having a large, diverse, even experienced group comes in. I pay very little attention to a single review of a speaker but when over time many people have the same opinions of a driver like Infinity tweeters being harsh or the Anarchy having great midbass I start to figure it's probably true.


----------



## ChrisB

I tried the raw driver thing... If you like mixing and matching stuff to obtain performance similar to a pre-packaged set, then be my guest. I found the JL Audio C5-650s to be a compromise between decent sound and fitting with little modification. Could I have done better by going with raw drivers? Maybe. Then again, how much time and money would I have spent by purchasing, customizing, installing, replacing, tuning, etc? 

As I have aged, I found that I have less and less patience for car audio, because in the end, it is just that. The sooner everyone realizes that the mobile environment is the worst possible environment for audio reproduction, the sooner we can put the petty arguments aside.

For the individual out there who is going to tell me that I should purchase a more quiet vehicle... I tried to fit into that stereotype of my particular demographic group by test driving cars that "should be" driven by CPAs and I found the quiet cars to be B O R I N G!


----------



## Notloudenuf

ChrisB said:


> I tried the raw driver thing... If you like mixing and matching stuff to obtain performance similar to a pre-packaged set, then be my guest. I found the JL Audio C5-650s to be a compromise between decent sound and fitting with little modification. Could I have done better by going with raw drivers? Maybe. *Then again, how much time and money would I have spent by purchasing, customizing, installing, replacing, tuning, etc? *
> 
> As I have aged, I found that I have less and less patience for car audio, because in the end, it is just that. The sooner everyone realizes that the mobile environment is the worst possible environment for audio reproduction, the sooner we can put the petty arguments aside.


All of this. Especially the bold parts. In the end the $ figure isn't much different when you factor in time installing/removing/testing different raw drivers and then taking the loss on them when you sell them, If you can sell them.


----------



## BuickGN

Agreed with the last two posts. While I like car audio, I'm less of a parts swapper than most and I just want to enjoy the music and have it sound the way it was intended to sound.

My front stage isn't cheap but if I would have just gone with it in the first place instead of experimenting with raw and cheaper drivers I could have saved myself more than the whole front stage costs. It's nice to be done, to the point where I can sit back and enjoy the music. Well, a little tweaking here and there but equipment wise it's done.


----------



## jp88

"Then again, how much time and money would I have spent by purchasing, customizing, installing, replacing, tuning, etc? "

That is the whole point of klippel data and small signals parameters. If you know how a driver is going to react in a certain sized enclosure, and where its breakups are in the frequency spectrum, and how much displacement it has and how much power it will handle, you can narrow your choices down to a driver that will most likely work in the situation you plan to put it in.

or you can just buy drivers cause someone else said they sound good and they may or may not work well in the confines of your setup


----------



## cnut334

Good discussion going on here.


----------



## cajunner

cnut334 said:


> Good discussion going on here.



in ANT's controversial ebay link director thread, no less!

it's all good.


in response, time is what we have, if we're in this forum. The hobby of DIYMA is slightly different from the hobby of caraudio.com, the distinction being this place is filled with numbers guys, people who have the science behind them. Some SPL-centric forums also have numbers guys, but it's a different result.


What the justification for using the raw (and less expensive, without passives added) drivers used to be, is you had parameters available, you could "see" what you were dealing with, you could tune enclosures, etc.

now, most woofers have that info available, so car audio product has come a long way, and for the brands that don't publish, we have testers out there doing small and large signal testing.

The offshoot or side story to that, is indicating the 'optimistic spec' range, the FR curves printed on the manuals, that don't jive with the tested parameters as shown in many examples.

Xmax is now a staple spec, indicating a woofer's performance and the manufacturers seem to stretch the truth there, not that it's bad, but it's having the truth in advertising, put in the light of independent testing, that makes the backing tutorials and threads here so valuable.

This is what made this forum, and now we're commercialized, the independent testing part is by the wayside, and I think that's why ANT didn't replace bikinpunk as primary tester yet. His return on investment stays up higher when the people who have something to lose by objective testing, pays for upgraded or vendor status memberships. Have you seen the rates? Pretty snazzy way to pay the bills, I think the "small income" is rather respectable, considering how people can send Klippels off to Germany and then not put them back in use. 

That's the sign, I think my hypothetical is more on target, than off.


----------



## BuickGN

cajunner said:


> in ANT's controversial ebay link director thread, no less!
> 
> it's all good.
> 
> 
> in response, time is what we have, if we're in this forum. The hobby of DIYMA is slightly different from the hobby of caraudio.com, the distinction being this place is filled with numbers guys, people who have the science behind them. Some SPL-centric forums also have numbers guys, but it's a different result.
> 
> 
> What the justification for using the raw (and less expensive, without passives added) drivers used to be, is you had parameters available, you could "see" what you were dealing with, you could tune enclosures, etc.
> 
> now, most woofers have that info available, so car audio product has come a long way, and for the brands that don't publish, we have testers out there doing small and large signal testing.
> 
> The offshoot or side story to that, is indicating the 'optimistic spec' range, the FR curves printed on the manuals, that don't jive with the tested parameters as shown in many examples.
> 
> Xmax is now a staple spec, indicating a woofer's performance and the manufacturers seem to stretch the truth there, not that it's bad, but it's having the truth in advertising, put in the light of independent testing, that makes the backing tutorials and threads here so valuable.
> 
> This is what made this forum, and now we're commercialized, the independent testing part is by the wayside, and I think that's why ANT didn't replace bikinpunk as primary tester yet. His return on investment stays up higher when the people who have something to lose by objective testing, pays for upgraded or vendor status memberships. Have you seen the rates? Pretty snazzy way to pay the bills, I think the "small income" is rather respectable, considering how people can send Klippels off to Germany and then not put them back in use.
> 
> That's the sign, I think my hypothetical is more on target, than off.


I hope you're wrong but you're probably right. Is Erin still running his own klippel and posting the results on his own page?


----------



## cajunner

BuickGN said:


> I hope you're wrong but you're probably right. Is Erin still running his own klippel and posting the results on his own page?


AFAIK, but doesn't that look odd, bikinpunk is a mod now and there's less "controversy" being posted, both here and there?

I know, we all have lives and things to do and work and family come first, so it's no surprise, but he's got the rack, the machine, the amp and the FR board, along with some room absorption panels available. And I totally get it if he feels like he's not getting the same return he expected, with all the extra work and away from family time.

His results were questioned, and his enthusiasm waned, I believe.

OR, he became a mod so he wouldn't be at odds with the sales people.

that's kind of sinister in the "control" aspect, this place submits upon it's members.

my bad if it's not so, it's easy to throw some conjecture at the wall and watch if it slides down or if it sticks...


----------



## mrbrian200

I'm venturing a guess the reason why bi-amping is more common in mobile may be that quality passives are very technical/time consuming to build, and pre built passives generally aren't audiophile quality.

I was looking for quality passives to separate my dash mids/tweeters. I looked and looked and looked found mabe 2 models that were up to snuff, and they were wayyy expensive, out of production, and/or bundled with drivers I didn't need.
If I were wanting to bi-amp the drivers acceptable quality hardware to do it that way is everywhere.

I relagated to building my own passives, but havent actually done it yet. I made a BOM for two/2-way xo's the parts from PE totalled around $80 using dayton film caps/air core inductors/mills resistors. None of the blank boards I've seen accomodate a 4th order design including a zobel and HF attenuation, so I'm on my own there.


----------



## eisnerracing

BigAl205 said:


> In this particular case I was using old school to refer to the "craze" that was mentioned in the OP where members used to try to find value-oriented and often less expensive alternatives to brand name equipment.


I got ya buy raw is not always a cheaper option. And with that said many car audio companys are offering a la carte options now.
Hybrid audio is one that comes to mind - if you dont want passive crossovers its ok they are not included - speakers are sold as individual units.
This would be great if other car audio companies offered the same. I know alpine, hertz etc. sells there tweeters but id like to buy just drivers


----------



## BigAl205

Erin still has his own site, but he's put the Klippel on hold while he builds his new house. He doesn't really have the room or time to do it in the temp that he's in.


----------



## cajunner

eisnerracing said:


> I got ya buy raw is not always a cheaper option. And with that said many car audio companys are offering a la carte options now.
> Hybrid audio is one that comes to mind - if you dont want passive crossovers its ok they are not included - speakers are sold as individual units.
> This would be great if other car audio companies offered the same. I know alpine, hertz etc. sells there tweeters but id like to buy just drivers


and when a supplier like PacParts has the replacement drivers available and it gets posted here, people swoop on them until they are "no longer available"

and that's a shame.

having access to a lowered cost driver made specifically with higher Q bump and resistance to the elements, and IB suspension parts that are able to take the long-term stresses of hot and cold fluctuation, would be pretty nice!

a while ago a parts supply chain made the JBL 660GTi mids available, I think, or maybe it was the Power series, for a good price and those went like hotcakes, I guess. Alpine had a ring radiator run, and those aren't available now either.

I think as soon as these stock clean-outs are discovered it's an inventory thing, in that after all are gone, no more inventory.


----------



## cajunner

BigAl205 said:


> Erin still has his own site, but he's put the Klippel on hold while he builds his new house. He doesn't really have the room or time to do it in the temp that he's in.


I'm an observer of coincidences.

if the Klippel charts start to flow again, at his site or here in the next few months, I'll be proven wrong and things will be back to normal again...


----------



## eisnerracing

cajunner said:


> and when a supplier like PacParts has the replacement drivers available and it gets posted here, people swoop on them until they are "no longer available"
> 
> and that's a shame.
> 
> having access to a lowered cost driver made specifically with higher Q bump and resistance to the elements, and IB suspension parts that are able to take the long-term stresses of hot and cold fluctuation, would be pretty nice!
> 
> a while ago a parts supply chain made the JBL 660GTi mids available, I think, or maybe it was the Power series, for a good price and those went like hotcakes, I guess. Alpine had a ring radiator run, and those aren't available now either.
> 
> I think as soon as these stock clean-outs are discovered it's an inventory thing, in that after all are gone, no more inventory.


funny you mentioned Alpine
i am very good friends with a few reps and rep firms as well as a few at Alpine in Ca. 
I had a set of type x ref comps and a set of type R comp 
i needed one type X ref tweeter and one type R mid 

both were nib but parts missing got them from one of my alpine rep friends as a clean out here you can have these...LOL thanks !!

i tried for months to get the drivers Alpine had them but dosent sell them nor does PAc parts - Alpine holds on to them ALL Marty said at alpine WTF why - woofers that are years old - and he said PAC will never get them - so who gets them ??? he had no answer 

finallyt landed a woofer from another region rep and tweeter as well 

took me 4 months LOL


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## Golden Ears

I800C0LLECT said:


> I remember reading about some who would tune ACTIVELY and then create passive crossovers with those same characteristics in an effort to simplify the installation. I thought that was neat.


HA! Thats what I plan to do with the GF's car. Who was that person so I can ask about his experience with this technique?


Very helpful post..BTW.

I am using raw drivers in both my car and GF's...actually a mix of car and Raw home drivers. So far sooooooo goooood.

I think we want to post some cars that sound great with specific systems , EQ curves, and install bits...so every great car isn't a "one-off".

The great thing about car audio is that there are a ton of "identical rooms" that can benefit from grouping all of our "_installs_" (read .. "experiments").

For instance... though his car is way out of reach for many, Gary Summers car sounds really amazing in 5.1 ...and that should be replicated. I think he should ship the car to MB...and have them sit in it.


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## GlasSman

Earzbleed said:


> "At the end of the day it's all about the music anyway. Once it turns into a gear swapping hobby it becomes worse than a woman that buys a pair of $400 shoes every week. "
> Very well put.


Thank you.


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