# Zapco - new product lines



## cyberdraven

Guys, been roaming around zapco's website to see their new line-up. Seems no more C2K? 

The new line-up is ST-X < ST-D < DC < ZX < Z series. I couldnt see the specs yet but all of them are now on RCA links. 

The DC series still looks like a tank and the only difference aesthetically is the RCA. No more symbilink cable. However, some says they changed something on the interface.

For the processor, looks like Zapco did an 8 channel one. just look at the pic. cant see if accepts optical connections though.

Zapco - Zapco Quality Products

Gee, my DC Amps will soon be obsolete

Anyone got advance info or reviews?

Thanks

Rafael


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## robert_wrath

BigRed said:


> Zapcos new processor. $400 retail price





nepl29 said:


> Here's some pics of the software that i took in SBN. According to one of the reps it will available for sale at the end of next month.





robert_wrath said:


> I'm so SOLD on this already. Tried contacting Zapco last week for Sybilink Balanced Upgrades as oppose to RCA Ins/Outs, still no response.


Pare, here you go. This will answer some of your questions.


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## KP

DC's are being replaced by the KZ's. The heat sinks match the processor in the pics above.


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## rain27

$429? That's it?

Is it of the same quality as the DSP6?


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## rcurley55

Dear Zapco,

Please hire someone to build you a proper website that is maintained.

Thank you,

A former (and potentially future) customer


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## rcurley55

rain27 said:


> $429? That's it?
> 
> Is it of the same quality as the DSP6?


I read the price drop as a combo of dropping symbilink and crowding by competitors' entry into the DSP market.


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## underdog

rcurley55 said:


> Dear Zapco,
> 
> Please hire someone to build you a proper website that is maintained.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> A former (and potentially future) customer


I agree.
There is no excuse for the mess they have made.


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## rain27

rcurley55 said:


> I read the price drop as a combo of dropping symbilink and crowding by competitors' entry into the DSP market.


Why is this not getting more attention then?

An 8 channel processor by Zapco at about $300 less than the next comparable product out there?

Anyone have insight on the Z series as well?


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## rcurley55

rain27 said:


> Why is this not getting more attention then?
> 
> An 8 channel processor by Zapco at about $300 less than the next comparable product out there?
> 
> Anyone have insight on the Z series as well?


I'm not sure why it's not getting more attention - If I had to guess, it's a combo of poor marketing and a stale product. From a casual observer's standpoint, it's status quo with an additional two channels.

As for the Z series, If Zapco actually updated their site...oh, wait, nevermind.


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## rain27

rcurley55 said:


> I'm not sure why it's not getting more attention - If I had to guess, it's a combo of poor marketing and a stale product. From a casual observer's standpoint, it's status quo with an additional two channels.
> 
> As for the Z series, If Zapco actually updated their site...oh, wait, nevermind.


It's one of the most flexible processors out there and now it's going to be half the price of a BitOne.1. 

The Alpine H800 and 3sixty.3 have gotten tons of interest at about twice the price as well.

Go figure.

So, who has information on the new Zapco line of products?


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## stereo_luver

Just when I got my son a DSP6....now this comes along. He's going to be pissed if he sees this...LOL. He is running 2-way + sub right now but eventually I'm sure he will go 3-way + sub. I told him to take baby steps and start trying to tune a 2-way + sub first.

Chuck


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## Schriever sound

Seems like my favorite amp manufacture fell off, everything after the o/g studio series seems mediocre I hope they bounce back soon!


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## tyroneshoes

Looks like theyre adapting. 

Makes their amps more accessible. 

Id like to see the other lines.


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## ousooner2

Anyone have any info or know where to find it on this Z8 DSP?? 

So it can run a 3-way and sub?? That's my biggest downfall that I don't like about the 3sixty.2, but the 3sixty.3 can do it.....though if this is quite a bit less! Win


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## DeanE10

Talked with Mike at Zapco today about the website and even offered to help 
(Been a Web Programmer since 1996)

He did say that it has been under construction for a few days and they are sorry for the mess. "It should all be fixed soon" is the best ETA I could get


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## KP

It is not ready yet. When product is in hand everyone will know. Sooner than you think.


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## rcurley55

DeanE10 said:


> Talked with Mike at Zapco today about the website and even offered to help
> (Been a Web Programmer since 1996)
> 
> He did say that it has been under construction for a few days and they are sorry for the mess. "It should all be fixed soon" is the best ETA I could get


I just don't understand why companies develop on their production site. Until you have something finished, don't upload ANYTHING. Right now it looks like they are going out of business.

<-- Been developing on and off since 1997  - more off than on. Hell, I'd be happy to give them a basic site on the cheap that is at least functional and looks good. Right now, they have neither.


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## kyheng

Well, just like Apple did recently..... If you let people know there's some new products going to be introduced, but only let them to see a bit by a bit, then when on the actual release, it will gain more people's interest... 
That's marketing deparment's plan.... I'm 1 of stupid fellow that wasted 10 minutes figuring WTF happened to Zapco's website....


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## DeanE10

rcurley55 said:


> I just don't understand why companies develop on their production site. Until you have something finished, don't upload ANYTHING. Right now it looks like they are going out of business.
> 
> <-- Been developing on and off since 1997  - more off than on. Hell, I'd be happy to give them a basic site on the cheap that is at least functional and looks good. Right now, they have neither.


As kyheng said, it's a marketing thing, it makes perfect sense... I've never done it that way but then again, I am a developer and not a marketing person. I've developed many game sites and would LOVE to make it easy for the Zapco guys to get in, make a change and get out. 

Hell, for Zapco I'd do it in trade...


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## oilman

...subscribed


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## rcurley55

DeanE10 said:


> As kyheng said, it's a marketing thing, it makes perfect sense... I've never done it that way but then again, I am a developer and not a marketing person. I've developed many game sites and would LOVE to make it easy for the Zapco guys to get in, make a change and get out.
> 
> Hell, for Zapco I'd do it in trade...


As a marketing guy, it makes no sense the way Zapco is doing it.

When Apple shuts down their online store, they state that it will be coming back up shortly, and most news outlets are running stories about the next gizmo.

All Zapco has done is create a bunch of links that cycle back to the same page (I'm talking about their product page). It looks like the don't know what they are doing. The two (Apple and Zapco) are distinctly different. If you want to make a "sneak peek," you leave your entire site live (old product lines included) and have a link to a special page on your site to show what you've been brewing (see JL Audio).

Furthermore, if this is your mission statement:

"ZAPCO is dedicated to the pursuit of Audio Fidelity. Our prime objectives are to design and manufacture car audio products of unsurpassed *Quality*, to provide unparalleled Support and Service for these Products and to conduct business in a manner that will enhance the Quality of Life for all involved.

Clearly you are trying to leverage the "Quality" side of the brand. A website like that doesn't exude quality and is completely inconsistent with their mission statement, and frankly makes them look like a fly-by-night company.

Finally, you never purposely put dead links up on your site.

It's a real shame, not marketing genius at work.


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## kyheng

The product line ups that linking to the same page are another method of creating interest.... The OP are clearly falled in to this trap....


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## nutxo

So these are the new Chinese zapcos?


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## IBcivic

kyheng said:


> Well, just like Apple did recently..... If you let people know there's some new products going to be introduced, but only let them to see a bit by a bit, then when on the actual release, it will gain more people's interest...
> That's marketing deparment's plan.... I'm 1 of stupid fellow that wasted 10 minutes figuring WTF happened to Zapco's website....


If that is indeed zapco's strategy...it isn't doing anything to attract my interest.
It is like going to an unclean restaurant...you just DO NOT want to eat there...no-matter how good the food is...


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## rain27

rcurley55 said:


> A website like that doesn't exude quality and is completely inconsistent with their mission statement, and frankly makes them look like a fly-by-night company.


Zapco has never had a great website, but I've never held it against them because they make innovative products.

Crappy websites are not that uncommon with smaller audio companies. Take Tru Technology. You go to their site and their product lines change about once in a blue moon. Their last product catalog is from half a decade ago. Then you call them and ask about their thousand dollar upgrades only to find that the one person who can tell you what the upgrades actually do won't be in for a few days. It just makes you picture 3 guys working out of their garage putting amps together. 

If Tru can get a pass, Zapco has more than earned one.


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## Hipnotic4

These are audio guys, not web-designers..they :should: have it in the budget to get a site better built..unless they just got screwed in the first run and stuck with it


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## DAT

ZAPCO , yeah new products


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## sulla123

So they dropped Symbilink. Well that's just great. So I guess it wasn't what they touted it to be? The end all be all of clean signal transmission. Or, it was, and they just don't want to bear the cost. Or is this just a cheapo version of Zapco? Either way, not interested. Bye-bye Zapco.


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## rcurley55

rain27 said:


> Zapco has never had a great website, but I've never held it against them because they make innovative products.
> 
> Crappy websites are not that uncommon with smaller audio companies. Take Tru Technology. You go to their site and their product lines change about once in a blue moon. Their last product catalog is from half a decade ago. Then you call them and ask about their thousand dollar upgrades only to find that the one person who can tell you what the upgrades actually do won't be in for a few days. It just makes you picture 3 guys working out of their garage putting amps together.
> 
> If Tru can get a pass, Zapco has more than earned one.


A more established company doesn't get a pass. In fact, no company in this day and age gets a pass. You can wing together a good looking, non flashy, working website for a few thousand bucks. 

Some basic photoshop and notepad can get it done.


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## omegaslast

Wow, i just laughed out loud when i went to their website because i was caught off guard.. the COPYRIGHT ZAPCO over their own product images is really strange.


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## robert_wrath

You guys gotta calm down up here. It's just temporary till all the kinks are ironed out. Rome wasn't built in a day!


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## rcurley55

robert_wrath said:


> You guys gotta calm down up here. It's just temporary till all the kinks are ironed out. Rome wasn't built in a day!


The point is you don't put temporary stuff out for public consumption when you want to be a professional company. 

You develop the new stuff in the background and continue to host a live site that at least works.


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## ACJohn

My apologies, I don't mean to be ignoring you guys...I've just been busy.
I've been consulting with Italy on the amps and DSP for some time now and returned to Zapco full time in November. Since then my time has been 135% working on these products 7:00am to 11:00pm. We pulled the site down as it had only old stuff. As soon as I can get cosmetically correct pictures of all amps we'll have them up on the web site.

I want to bring you the very best product I can and until these lines are wrapped up that's my focus, and it will be little rough on the support material.

In the meantime, I am there every day. Give me a call with any questions or drop me a mail and I'll shoot you out any preliminary information.
[email protected] 209 599 2397 Cell 209 483 3544 (please not late night)
Regarding stuff new the DSP-Z8:
>
 2 more output channels
 Mute by ch or by Ch pair
 6dB to 36dB Crossover
 One more decimal point delay resolution
 45 degree phase steps
 Speaker level input on balanced RCA's
 One parametric band/ch triggered by input signal voltage so you can make it come active by the volume control.
And a program that just drags onto the desktop and works

Drop me a note and I'll shoot you the GUI if you want to play with it (1MB Zip)

John


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## rc10mike

Sad to see the old Zapco gone..


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## robert_wrath

John, I'll take you up on the offer. Email sent.


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## kyheng

Hmmmm.... Without Symbilink means the stuffs are bad? I doubt so.... Finally Zapco are awake on this, how long a vehicle are? 100M? 200M? Or 500M? Heck, it is only 2-5M. You no need to have balanced input/output, waste of money...
As said, big numbers means nothing, >10V pre-in signal means no noise? Try to get your power connections dirty and giving high resistance and every equipment(especially a Pioneer HU) are running on 9-10V, then you see got noise or not?


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## james2266

ACJohn said:


> My apologies, I don't mean to be ignoring you guys...I've just been busy.
> I've been consulting with Italy on the amps and DSP for some time now and returned to Zapco full time in November. Since then my time has been 135% working on these products 7:00am to 11:00pm. We pulled the site down as it had only old stuff. As soon as I can get cosmetically correct pictures of all amps we'll have them up on the web site.
> 
> I want to bring you the very best product I can and until these lines are wrapped up that's my focus, and it will be little rough on the support material.
> 
> In the meantime, I am there every day. Give me a call with any questions or drop me a mail and I'll shoot you out any preliminary information.
> [email protected] 209 599 2397 Cell 209 483 3544 (please not late night)
> Regarding stuff new the DSP-Z8:
> >
> 
> 2 more output channels
> Mute by ch or by Ch pair
> 6dB to 36dB Crossover
> One more decimal point delay resolution
> 45 degree phase steps
> Speaker level input on balanced RCA's
> One parametric band/ch triggered by input signal voltage so you can make it come active by the volume control.
> And a program that just drags onto the desktop and works
> 
> Drop me a note and I'll shoot you the GUI if you want to play with it (1MB Zip)
> 
> John


Email sent here too. I'll take that software demo version too. I love playing with the software on these things before buying. Thanks.


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## narvarr

Email sent here as well


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## trigg007

rcurley55 said:


> *I just don't understand why companies develop on their production site. Until you have something finished, don't upload ANYTHING*.





rcurley55 said:


> The point is you don't put temporary stuff out for public consumption when you want to be a professional company. You develop the new stuff in the background and continue to host a live site that at least works.





I'd say their tactics are working quite well. It has you "chirping" about the company and their product. It's called Marketing 

Why bash a company that everyone "in the know" knows makes a quality product and has probably been doing it longer than you've been alive?????


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## pocket5s

I'm hoping to get a copy as well of the UI. I didn't notice any mention of remote control, volume or otherwise. From the pic in the original post there are to I/O ports, but don't know what those are for.


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## Slick

So glad to see Zapco making a comeback, great work John! Incase everyone didn't know, John is the father of the DC series, good things instore for Zapco with him back!


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## barracuda777

Email send as well.
Thanks John.


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## rcurley55

trigg007 said:


> I'd say their tactics are working quite well. It has you "chirping" about the company and their product. It's called Marketing
> 
> Why bash a company that everyone "in the know" knows makes a quality product and has probably been doing it longer than you've been alive?????


I'm not bashing the company (nor the products), I'm bashing whomever is making decisions about their website. But here's a little marketing tidbit - everyone "in the know" already has an idea of who Zapco is and what they are known for. I'd be WAY more concerned about those who are not in the know! 

When you drop the price point of your flagship processor by more than 50% while adding features, you have now opened yourself up to people who were unable to afford Zapco products previously.

If it was me, I'd be wanting to put my best foot forward to those people to try to capture them as new customers. Us previous customers are cheap to keep around and keep relatively happy (see current website). But if I'm going to launch a new product, I'd make sure my web presence was consistent with my message as a brand.

ACJohn - sorry if my comments come off as harsh, they are just honest. I like Zapco (have owned upwards of 8 DC amps) and wish you guys the best with the new products.


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## Sonus

I got a replay from Zapco;

The DSP-Z8 should be available end of may at the latest. It will accept your balanced input up to 22 volts.

I'll wait with my install until then


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## underdog

rcurley55 said:


> I'm not bashing the company (nor the products), I'm bashing whomever is making decisions about their website. But here's a little marketing tidbit - everyone "in the know" already has an idea of who Zapco is and what they are known for. I'd be WAY more concerned about those who are not in the know!
> 
> When you drop the price point of your flagship processor by more than 50% while adding features, you have now opened yourself up to people who were unable to afford Zapco products previously.
> 
> If it was me, I'd be wanting to put my best foot forward to those people to try to capture them as new customers. Us previous customers are cheap to keep around and keep relatively happy (see current website). But if I'm going to launch a new product, I'd make sure my web presence was consistent with my message as a brand.
> 
> ACJohn - sorry if my comments come off as harsh, they are just honest. I like Zapco (have owned upwards of 8 DC amps) and wish you guys the best with the new products.


I agree.
They should have atleast got the Legacy products page working.
Then pulled the old stuff down to it.

If you want to be Top Shelf you have to support what you already sold


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## nutxo

ACJohn said:


> My apologies, I don't mean to be ignoring you guys...I've just been busy.
> I've been consulting with Italy on the amps and DSP for some time now and returned to Zapco full time in November. Since then my time has been 135% working on these products 7:00am to 11:00pm. We pulled the site down as it had only old stuff. As soon as I can get cosmetically correct pictures of all amps we'll have them up on the web site.
> 
> I want to bring you the very best product I can and until these lines are wrapped up that's my focus, and it will be little rough on the support material.
> 
> In the meantime, I am there every day. Give me a call with any questions or drop me a mail and I'll shoot you out any preliminary information.
> [email protected] 209 599 2397 Cell 209 483 3544 (please not late night)
> Regarding stuff new the DSP-Z8:
> >
> 2 more output channels
> Mute by ch or by Ch pair
> 6dB to 36dB Crossover
> One more decimal point delay resolution
> 45 degree phase steps
> Speaker level input on balanced RCA's
> One parametric band/ch triggered by input signal voltage so you can make it come active by the volume control.
> And a program that just drags onto the desktop and works
> 
> Drop me a note and I'll shoot you the GUI if you want to play with it (1MB Zip)
> 
> John



So whats the deal? Which chinese build house is making these now?


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## tyroneshoes

nutxo said:


> So whats the deal? Which chinese build house is making these now?





ACJohn said:


> I've been consulting with Italy on the amps



Im assuming some of the european zapco amps are headed this way.


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## Sulley

I send an email to John, No response yet. Anybody play with DSP software yet, is that 10 band of parametric per channel?


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## optimaprime

i sent email to!!


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## james2266

he sent the link out to everyone or at least I got it and have been playing with it for a bit now. 

Yes, it is 10 bands parametric per channel. I don't think it is for me tho but it looks pretty good. Easy interface. I need better resolution on the eq for one. Looks like 1 db is smallest increment

The variable phase (0,45,90, etc) is kinda cool tho - like the Helix models but on all available channels apparently.

Also appears to suffer from one of the same annoying thing my Bit One.1 does. It will not allow you to set left and right and relink to adjust both left and right together without overriding what you already did. For some that doesn't mean anything but for me, it ticks me off with my current processor

I think either the Mosconi DSP or the new Arc piece will be more to my liking even if about double the price point too.


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## olliestoybox

Nice to see Zapco is back


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## ACJohn

Looks like my link ran out of downloads.

Here's another: https://www.sendthisfile.com/jnoCjws6Fel8cygM8ldzNTlr

John


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## Sulley

After playing with DSP-Z8 software, I think I like the layout of crossover functions, EQ and other stuff but the time alignment is kinda weird for me. You can hold the down key on the keyboard and it only scrolls in 0.1ms increments? Now you can type in any number you want such as 1.23ms but I would like it to scroll in increments of 0.01ms. Maybe I missed something or hopefully there is still changes to be made for the final release...

Also as *james2266* mentioned it only as 1db steps for the EQ, 0.5db would be nice but the 10 bands of parametric for each output kinda makes up for it IMO, So not a deal breaker for me. 

Can anyone recommend a Canadian dealer?


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## ACJohn

nutxo said:


> So whats the deal? Which chinese build house is making these now?


None actually


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## rc10mike

Wheres the successor to the 9.0XD?


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## ACJohn

stockley.rod said:


> After playing with DSP-Z8 software, I think I like the layout of crossover functions, EQ and other stuff but the time alignment is kinda weird for me. You can hold the down key on the keyboard and it only scrolls in 0.1ms increments? Now you can type in any number you want such as 1.23ms but I would like it to scroll in increments of 0.01ms. Maybe I missed something or hopefully there is still changes to be made for the final release...
> 
> Also as *james2266* mentioned it only as 1db steps for the EQ, 0.5db would be nice but the 10 bands of parametric for each output kinda makes up for it IMO, So not a deal breaker for me.
> 
> Can anyone recommend a Canadian dealer?


Understood on the delay: Unfortunately the drop down list would then be over 2,000 items and that gets awfully unwieldy.


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## Sulley

ACJohn said:


> Understood on the delay: Unfortunately the drop down list would then be over 2,000 items and that gets awfully unwieldy.


Yeah I could only Imagine. Too bad, even 0.05 would be much nicer. 

I sent you an email too, Make sure to respond only when your on the company clock


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## nutxo

ACJohn said:


> None actually


Korean? I have a friend that says all thats down at Zapco is a skeleton crew. The companies been sold to a Chinese group and manufacturing has been moved overseas.


Is there any of this thats true? Is Zapco still an American company building an American product?


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## benny

stockley.rod said:


> ...Now *you can type in any number you want* such as 1.23ms...



I downloaded the software to try, and I couldn't do this. Sure, I could type in a number, but as soon as I went to another parameter, my custom entry would revert back to a menu selection.


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## Sulley

benny said:


> I downloaded the software to try, and I couldn't do this. Sure, I could type in a number, but as soon as I went to another parameter, my custom entry would revert back to a menu selection.


Really? When I type in a number and hit enter, the slide bar just above it jumps to the far right and it creates like you said a custom entry. If I enter in say 3 different custom entry's I can go back and select either one as they are saved. 

As you can see the 3 random numbers I typed in.


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## pocket5s

ACJohn said:


> Looks like my link ran out of downloads.
> 
> Here's another: https://www.sendthisfile.com/jnoCjws6Fel8cygM8ldzNTlr
> 
> John


So has this one


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## benny

Thanks Rod, i wasn't hitting "enter" :blush:


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## Sulley

benny said:


> Thanks Rod, i wasn't hitting "enter" :blush:


No Prob, At first I was a little worried about the selection of X-over frequencies because all that was in the drop menu was like 1000, 2000, 3000, etc... Then I realized I could type it in lol. Much nicer.


Sent from my iPhone


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## ACJohn

nutxo said:


> Korean? I have a friend that says all thats down at Zapco is a skeleton crew. The companies been sold to a Chinese group and manufacturing has been moved overseas.
> 
> 
> Is there any of this thats true? Is Zapco still an American company building an American product?


Is your friend an employee of or a big fan of a car audio company who hates Zapco? Who is your friend and what are his motives. You need to look at who spreads this stuff. Are we small? Absolutely.
But we are absolutely not owned by any Chinese company. In fact the only relationship I know of exactly like that is Arc Audio. (U-Buy Industrial)

Does that make Arc a bad product? Of course not! Arc is a excellent product. Well designed and well built. How about Alpine? Is that crap?
No! How about Hertz? Crap? I don't think so! What makes a product from China crap is a company who will only pay to have crap made so they can sell 1000 watts for a buck 75 and still make money. You get what you pay for whether you buy it in China or anywhere else.

Sorry for the rant but I get tired of the innuendos and bull sh*t. Never, ever in any way shape or form, has it ever been written or otherwise expressed by anyone who had any clue or any sliver of knowledge that Zapco was bought by a "Chinese group". Where does this sh*t come from? Does it fall out of the sky? No...somebody throws it out there intentionally to cast doubt on another company and hopes it starts a rumor.

The Reference were made in overseas from 2004 and the DC have always been made there. And they are both damn good products, thank you. I have now found a better build house (They make boards for several high end "German" and "Italian" amps) and I am going to have an even better product.

The new Zapco electronics are being made in Korea. Not China...Korea
... and no, they don't own us either.

I spent the last year developing what I believe are the best sounding amps we have ever made. I re-worked the DSP to where I felt it would do the best possible job for tuners at a reasonable price. We found what I believe to be the best possible build house to put it all together. 

Will you like them? I think most of you will. Those who don't...so be it.
All I can ask you to do is listen to them. Stop the back biting and listen to the product.

If you want to know something about the company...you have my number.
As for the bull floating around, we all have opinions. But if your going to through something out completely unfounded...well, please don't.

John


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## ACJohn

*Permanent DSP Link*

Here's a DPN link that won't time out.

www.zapco.com/upload/ftp/zapcodpn//ZapcoDpn_20120228.zip

The bad news: Somebody mentioned price. We found out at CES that we needed another chip do do everything I wanted to do...and do it well.
We'll absorb some of it, but the map will go to $499.95. Still not bad though,eh?

John


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## james2266

ACJohn said:


> Is your friend an employee of or a big fan of a car audio company who hates Zapco? Who is your friend and what are his motives. You need to look at who spreads this stuff. Are we small? Absolutely.
> But we are absolutely not owned by any Chinese company. In fact the only relationship I know of exactly like that is Arc Audio. (U-Buy Industrial)
> 
> Does that make Arc a bad product? Of course not! Arc is a excellent product. Well designed and well built. How about Alpine? Is that crap?
> No! How about Hertz? Crap? I don't think so! What makes a product from China crap is a company who will only pay to have crap made so they can sell 1000 watts for a buck 75 and still make money. You get what you pay for whether you buy it in China or anywhere else.
> 
> Sorry for the rant but I get tired of the innuendos and bull sh*t. Never, ever in any way shape or form, has it ever been written or otherwise expressed by anyone who had any clue or any sliver of knowledge that Zapco was bought by a "Chinese group". Where does this sh*t come from? Does it fall out of the sky? No...somebody throws it out there intentionally to cast doubt on another company and hopes it starts a rumor.
> 
> The Reference were made in overseas from 2004 and the DC have always been made there. And they are both damn good products, thank you. I have now found a better build house (They make boards for several high end "German" and "Italian" amps) and I am going to have an even better product.
> 
> The new Zapco electronics are being made in Korea. Not China...Korea
> ... and no, they don't own us either.
> 
> I spent the last year developing what I believe are the best sounding amps we have ever made. I re-worked the DSP to where I felt it would do the best possible job for tuners at a reasonable price. We found what I believe to be the best possible build house to put it all together.
> 
> Will you like them? I think most of you will. Those who don't...so be it.
> All I can ask you to do is listen to them. Stop the back biting and listen to the product.
> 
> If you want to know something about the company...you have my number.
> As for the bull floating around, we all have opinions. But if your going to through something out completely unfounded...well, please don't.
> 
> John


Now there is a response from someone that cares about their company! I thank you for clearing that all up even if I was not one of the ones spreading those rumors. I, also, would love to hear what this new dsp can do for me but alas noone here carries Zapco. I am not even sure where my nearest dealer is. There might be one in Edmonton which is 3 hours away. If not then Vancouver which is a solid 12 hour drive away. It really does suck living in Canada and being a car audiophile sometimes


----------



## pocket5s

ACJohn said:


> Is your friend an employee of or a big fan of a car audio company who hates Zapco? Who is your friend and what are his motives. You need to look at who spreads this stuff. Are we small? Absolutely.
> But we are absolutely not owned by any Chinese company. In fact the only relationship I know of exactly like that is Arc Audio. (U-Buy Industrial)
> 
> Does that make Arc a bad product? Of course not! Arc is a excellent product. Well designed and well built. How about Alpine? Is that crap?
> No! How about Hertz? Crap? I don't think so! What makes a product from China crap is a company who will only pay to have crap made so they can sell 1000 watts for a buck 75 and still make money. You get what you pay for whether you buy it in China or anywhere else.
> 
> Sorry for the rant but I get tired of the innuendos and bull sh*t. Never, ever in any way shape or form, has it ever been written or otherwise expressed by anyone who had any clue or any sliver of knowledge that Zapco was bought by a "Chinese group". Where does this sh*t come from? Does it fall out of the sky? No...somebody throws it out there intentionally to cast doubt on another company and hopes it starts a rumor.
> 
> The Reference were made in overseas from 2004 and the DC have always been made there. And they are both damn good products, thank you. I have now found a better build house (They make boards for several high end "German" and "Italian" amps) and I am going to have an even better product.
> 
> The new Zapco electronics are being made in Korea. Not China...Korea
> ... and no, they don't own us either.
> 
> I spent the last year developing what I believe are the best sounding amps we have ever made. I re-worked the DSP to where I felt it would do the best possible job for tuners at a reasonable price. We found what I believe to be the best possible build house to put it all together.
> 
> Will you like them? I think most of you will. Those who don't...so be it.
> All I can ask you to do is listen to them. Stop the back biting and listen to the product.
> 
> If you want to know something about the company...you have my number.
> As for the bull floating around, we all have opinions. But if your going to through something out completely unfounded...well, please don't.
> 
> John


Kudos to you John. I never could really see the logic behind some of the biases. If you (zapco) or anyone else for that matter, spec'd a certain design and had some else build it to *your* specs then so what. If you accept what they build then it is your responsibility, good or bad. 

Personally I don't care where it is actually made as long as it is made well. Sure it would be really cool if everything sold in the US was actually made in the US, but economics and the market place dictate otherwise. Shame, but it is what it is.


----------



## pocket5s

*Re: Permanent DSP Link*



ACJohn said:


> Here's a DPN link that won't time out.
> 
> www.zapco.com/upload/ftp/zapcodpn//ZapcoDpn_20120228.zip
> 
> The bad news: Somebody mentioned price. We found out at CES that we needed another chip do do everything I wanted to do...and do it well.
> We'll absorb some of it, but the map will go to $499.95. Still not bad though,eh?
> 
> John


I grabbed that link in a hurry, thanks for putting that up!

I have yet to buy a DSP, but I'm on the hunt. Depending on features, 500 still seems pretty competitive to me.


----------



## Sonus

John - would you be willing to give us a quick run down of the new product line up? And maybe give a guide price idea?


----------



## rain27

*Re: Permanent DSP Link*



ACJohn said:


> Here's a DPN link that won't time out.
> 
> www.zapco.com/upload/ftp/zapcodpn//ZapcoDpn_20120228.zip
> 
> The bad news: Somebody mentioned price. We found out at CES that we needed another chip do do everything I wanted to do...and do it well.
> We'll absorb some of it, but the map will go to $499.95. Still not bad though,eh?
> 
> John


The price is still great and hundreds less than anything comparable out there or on the horizon that I know of.


----------



## barracuda777

Ok, I`ve just play with DPN software John send me

First of all, screen and menus are the same, so really familiar environment for previous dsp zapco owner.
The direct "mute" buttons access are truly nice. what a pain in the dsp6 scroll down to find it! Nice.
Bass boost is rebadged as "Voltage sensitivity eq"???
What is "monitor" button for?
A bad thing for me: a missing 18db slope in x-over. Just 6-12 and a hudge jump to 24db and 36db.
I prefer the conventionnal 6-12-18-24 steps as before. You have more control and flexibility to match drivers.
Different phase control is really a good improvement. I hope zapco guys can work more on it and offer a fully variable phase controller.

For now that`s all I see on it. I have to play with a fresh Z8 in my hands to tell more....


----------



## nutxo

ACJohn said:


> Is your friend an employee of or a big fan of a car audio company who hates Zapco? Who is your friend and what are his motives. You need to look at who spreads this stuff. Are we small? Absolutely.
> But we are absolutely not owned by any Chinese company. In fact the only relationship I know of exactly like that is Arc Audio. (U-Buy Industrial)
> 
> Does that make Arc a bad product? Of course not! Arc is a excellent product. Well designed and well built. How about Alpine? Is that crap?
> No! How about Hertz? Crap? I don't think so! What makes a product from China crap is a company who will only pay to have crap made so they can sell 1000 watts for a buck 75 and still make money. You get what you pay for whether you buy it in China or anywhere else.
> 
> Sorry for the rant but I get tired of the innuendos and bull sh*t. Never, ever in any way shape or form, has it ever been written or otherwise expressed by anyone who had any clue or any sliver of knowledge that Zapco was bought by a "Chinese group". Where does this sh*t come from? Does it fall out of the sky? No...somebody throws it out there intentionally to cast doubt on another company and hopes it starts a rumor.
> 
> The Reference were made in overseas from 2004 and the DC have always been made there. And they are both damn good products, thank you. I have now found a better build house (They make boards for several high end "German" and "Italian" amps) and I am going to have an even better product.
> 
> The new Zapco electronics are being made in Korea. Not China...Korea
> ... and no, they don't own us either.
> 
> I spent the last year developing what I believe are the best sounding amps we have ever made. I re-worked the DSP to where I felt it would do the best possible job for tuners at a reasonable price. We found what I believe to be the best possible build house to put it all together.
> 
> Will you like them? I think most of you will. Those who don't...so be it.
> All I can ask you to do is listen to them. Stop the back biting and listen to the product.
> 
> If you want to know something about the company...you have my number.
> As for the bull floating around, we all have opinions. But if your going to through something out completely unfounded...well, please don't.
> 
> John


I didnt throw anything out. I asked a direct question. Frame it any way you like . I was genuinely interested.


----------



## rain27

nutxo said:


> So whats the deal? Which chinese build house is making these now?





nutxo said:


> I didnt throw anything out. I asked a direct question. Frame it any way you like . I was genuinely interested.


You don't see how your original question would lead people to believe you knew what you were talking about?


----------



## nutxo

rain27 said:


> You don't see how your original question would lead people to believe you knew what you were talking about?


I do not. I was told something I had never repeated. I saw the Zapco rep and asked him directly. I do see how the first reply to my question seemed evasive so I expanded a little.

This is how rumors get squelched. I took the question right to the person who could answer it.


----------



## rcurley55

nutxo said:


> I do not. I was told something I had never repeated. I saw the Zapco rep and asked him directly. I do see how the first reply to my question seemed evasive so I expanded a little.
> 
> This is how rumors get squelched. I took the question right to the person who could answer it.


Your first post was more along the lines of how rumors get started, not squelched.

If you wanted to be direct and ask a question about who was building them, you ask:

Which build house is making these now?

When you add Chinese in there, any normal person would assume that you knew they were being built somewhere in China...


----------



## stilife

I just downloaded the new DSP software. I'm wondering if I install it will it erase all my settings from the previous version?

Thanks

S.


----------



## cyberdraven

Any other changes aside from the processor? How about the internals of the dc amp?


----------



## barracuda777

stilife said:


> I just downloaded the new DSP software. I'm wondering if I install it will it erase all my settings from the previous version?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> S.


No, I don't think soo. It's a single .exe file. Just run it to play with dpn software.


----------



## nutxo

rcurley55 said:


> Your first post was more along the lines of how rumors get started, not squelched.
> 
> If you wanted to be direct and ask a question about who was building them, you ask:
> 
> Which build house is making these now?
> 
> When you add Chinese in there, any normal person would assume that you knew they were being built somewhere in China...


You ASSumed. LOL, sorry about the last comment.


----------



## DaCid

I have been a fan of Zapco since my brother bought one when I was 7.  

I'm still running an old Zapco Z300 for my sub, and with an upcoming build on my hands I'm looking for some quality amps to purchase.  

I will definitely be keeping an eye on the new line! I hope you can get the specs up soon for all of the amps!


----------



## nutxo

I'm seriously not trolling . Who thought calling a product line the std series was a good idea?


----------



## Slick

It's an abbreviation...Studio line, class D. 

Don't read to much into it


----------



## Sulley

So the studio line is there lower end gear? replacing the I-Force line?


----------



## ACJohn

First the amps are ST-2D, ST-4D, ST-5D, ST-500D, and ST-1000D
Nowhere will it say STD. I'll have the web site move the D to the other side of Series if it will make everybody feel better though. I will say, however,that no one has ever given me any grief for riding a Harley Davidson FX-STD 

The Studio X series are Class A/B, tiny chassis, and it is our entry level. They are basically 50 watts RMS/ch at 4 ohms in 2ch and 4ch plus a 360watt bass amp and a 5 channel with 4 x 50 plus 1 x 360. They are the same as last year but we are modifying the chassis for better cooling on the 4Ch. That chassis just wasn't long enough to get rid of the heat of an a/b amp under heavier load.

Studio D amps are a little different. Full range class D with a very small footprint but a big step above the Studio X in power. 
The stereo unit is 2 x [email protected] 4ohms and 2 x 200 @ 2ohms with < 0.05%THD and 90dB S/N in a box that's only 6.5" x 6.3" x 1.75". The 1000 watt'er is still only 6.5 x 9.8 x 1.75 (That's 1000 @ 1ohm).
You should see the Studio Class D's in June after the Z's and DC's

Yes the i-Force is gone. We can now get that sound from Class D in about 1/3 the size. Audiophiles still buy sound first, but everyone else is now buying size and looks first. The i-Force was just too big and clunky for today's average Joe. Hence the *ST-Series D * (that look better?)

John


----------



## 12v Electronics

ACJohn said:


> Nowhere will it say STD. I'll have the web site move the D to the other side of Series if it will make everybody feel better though. I will say, however,that no one has ever given me any grief for riding a Harley Davidson FX-STD


Thats because everybody knows that all Harley riders have STD's


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## Tnutt19

What a tough audience. 
When it comes to our audio gear we are all like little children on christmas night and want our presents now. Give Zapco a little break here, John came in and has done an incredible job. Quality takes time to develop, manufacturer, ship then receive to sell. 
I look forward to hearing more about their new product.


----------



## ACJohn

12v Electronics said:


> Thats because everybody knows that all Harley riders have STD's


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Oh my God! You're killing me! But thank you. Working all alone here on a holiday, but doing with a smile now.

John


----------



## DeanE10

John - Will there be an update for the older DC Software (I think 1.41 is the latest)? Or is this just for the new gear only?


----------



## sulla123

What happened to symbilink? Many of us have invested quite a bit into symbilink components, cables, adaptors, etc. Kind of hard to swallow that this stuff is now moot on any new product lines. Not good business in my opinion.


----------



## Matt R

Looking forward to see and hear whats coming!!!


----------



## boricua69

Forget Zapco, look at ARC AUDIO PS8.


----------



## DAT

boricua69 said:


> Forget Zapco, look at ARC AUDIO PS8.


Yes your right the ARC PS8 will be nice, but this is a ZAPCO thread....


----------



## stereo_luver

12v Electronics said:


> Thats because everybody knows that all Harley riders have STD's


Really? I'd still put either of my '76 XR750's against most bikes today. BUT...these aren't cruisers either....LOL

Chuck


----------



## ACJohn

Been busy for a few days. I'll try to address a few comments:
First: Cruisers...OK STD's ...Cruisers ...yea, I get it. And I agree 
bout the bike. Production manager at Audio control had an S.E. XR with factory dual carbs than was just vicious. But I'm too old and slow ride one of those and live. 

> The amplifier related innards of the DC line will remain the same. The only changes are those related to the new chip arrangement. 

> Because the new DC uses multichannel chips, and fewer of them, the control chip programing is different so the programs will not be compatible. 

> SymbiLink: Why change? Because now, with all the lines changing, was the time to do it. SymbiLink was adapted in the early '90's to combat common mode noise and ground loop noise. 1) These issues are simply not the problem that they once were so the advantage of SymbiLink is less now. 2) With more and more people going to multichannel amps SymbiLink lost its advantage because 2 cables going to one amp still have ground loop potential. The only solution we found was a large multi-conductor cable that would put a minimum of three cables inside one shield. Then we needed a 3 to 1 adapter on one end and a 1 to 3 adapter on the other. We made a prototype but it was too big, too bulky, and too expensive to sell. 3) On top of this, SymbiLink precluded using any of the high-end cables and we were fielding those call constantly.

So, since the advantages of SymbiLink had been minimized by technology, and the vast majority of consumers and dealers wanted to be able to use high-end cables, we decided to make the change now, with all new product coming this year.

SymbiLink was a great system. Just like the 3 piece amps. They were the right answer at the right time. But that time went. SymbiLink did it's job beautifully for a long time. And it's time is simply up.

Once we get the amps out we will start working on high output analog processors and line drivers to give you more signal from the front of the system.

John


----------



## robert_wrath

Hey ACJohn, Thanx a Bunch for the updates. You're holdin up the fort just fine!


----------



## cyberdraven

nice john. The symbilink serves me well. I use 2 pcs. 4 channel amps with only 1 symbilink cable for each amp. I have a fully utilized 8 independent channels and could go 4 way-full active with a Denon headunit that only has 2 pcs. of pre-outs. Further, i could expand to additional 2 pcs. zapco amps by using the zapco TP-4, still with a flimsy headunit with only 2 pre-outs. Simple cabling, less money and a free transmitter does the job for me. Anyway, thanks symbilink, hello RCA's. hehehe

John, what about the new Z series? what will we expect from them? What happened to the C2k's and the latest C2K Class A amps? Will this be a "rebirth" of the Z studio series or patterned after the C2K's?


----------



## matdotcom2000

Love the question above


----------



## DeanE10

John - Thanks a ton for keeping us up to date, Love the info thus far!


----------



## sulla123

Wait a minute. How has "technology gotten better"? You site "common mode noise" and "ground loop noise" as the necessary reasons for symbilink. How have these issues suddenly gone away? Are they suddenly making cars with LESS computer and electrical components? If anything, these are BIGGER issues in cars today, not smaller, due to the increased number of computers and processors in newer cars. As far as multi-channel setups, both the Zapco Z400 C4-SL and the C2K 4.0 are multi-channel amps. Was Symbilink not effective on these amps? What I believe is that it was expensive to put this technology into the amps, and now, in a possible cost-cutting effort, this technology is being left off of newer amps. Anyone who knows anything about audio understands that balanced technology is ALWAYS more expensive due to the parts (type and number) required for the implementation. IF that is the case, then just come out and tell us "It was too expensive". That we will understand. But please don't insult our intelligence by claiming it suddenly wasn't necessary when cars, and their inherent electrical issues, haven't changed in any meaningful way so as to make these issues go away. While I dabble in electronics, and am NOT an engineer, I know when I'm being palmed off with a seemingly lame excuse about why certain features are dropped. If I'm wrong, and that is quite possible, then please provide a much better explanation than "...these issues are not the problem they once were." Because that sounds like a lame excuse to me. I've been a loyal Zapco customer for a long time.


----------



## DeanE10

@Sulla - Very valid concern! 

I think what John is referring to is when the DC Amps were first released they needed a better balanced input and the birth of SymbiLink began. Today, as the cars do have more technology built into them, the issue is not as bad as it used to be. Also, RCA cables have come a long way with how they twist the wires helping to eliminate this issue as well. I can tell you first hand if you do the Big-3 Upgrade you will experience far less grounding issues/noise.

In an earlier post John explained that they moved the balanced input into the Amp instead of using the SLDIN-TF keeping the balanced inputs, just no longer needing the SymbiLink cable where RCA cables can be used.

@John - Correct me if I am wrong here, but that's how I understood your comments.


----------



## sulla123

RCA is not balanced. He may be referring to "balanced differential", but that is NOT true balanced. RCA's given their conductor make-up and count are in NO WAY balanced. The birth of Symbilink was far before the DC amps. It arrived with the Z series, WELL before the DC series, as in the Z300 SL, 600, and so on. Twisted RCA's do help, but in no way do they replace fully balanced lines. If they did, then high end home audio equipment and pro audio equipment would use them. They don't. Reason being is RCA is a cheap, inferior method of signal transmission. Ask any audio engineer. I stand by my assertion that this is nothing more than a cost-cutting measure. I can't stand it when manufacturers claim they are improving their product, but lo and behold, it suddenly costs less and removes expensive features that made it great in the first place. Mark Levinson tried the same bullsh*t with their high end line, replacing expensive heat sinks and solid plates with mesh and cheap steel, then claiming that it was to make it smaller to fit into home theater racks. Complete hogwash, and every consumer who'd been around knew it. And this move by Zapco smacks of the same hogwash to me.


----------



## underdog

sulla123 said:


> Wait a minute. How has "technology gotten better"? You site "common mode noise" and "ground loop noise" as the necessary reasons for symbilink. How have these issues suddenly gone away? Are they suddenly making cars with LESS computer and electrical components? If anything, these are BIGGER issues in cars today, not smaller, due to the increased number of computers and processors in newer cars. As far as multi-channel setups, both the Zapco Z400 C4-SL and the C2K 4.0 are multi-channel amps. Was Symbilink not effective on these amps? What I believe is that it was expensive to put this technology into the amps, and now, in a possible cost-cutting effort, this technology is being left off of newer amps. Anyone who knows anything about audio understands that balanced technology is ALWAYS more expensive due to the parts (type and number) required for the implementation. IF that is the case, then just come out and tell us "It was too expensive". That we will understand. But please don't insult our intelligence by claiming it suddenly wasn't necessary when cars, and their inherent electrical issues, haven't changed in any meaningful way so as to make these issues go away. While I dabble in electronics, and am NOT an engineer, I know when I'm being palmed off with a seemingly lame excuse about why certain features are dropped. If I'm wrong, and that is quite possible, then please provide a much better explanation than "...these issues are not the problem they once were." Because that sounds like a lame excuse to me. I've been a loyal Zapco customer for a long time.


I agree.
Looks like a marketing manuver.
http://autosound21.co.kr/shop/board_data/automanual/symbilinkmanual.pdf

Maybe they can come out with a cool led lighted Zapco logo to set themselves apart from the rest?


----------



## sulla123

Until I get some concrete information regarding my questions and concerns, I'm throwing the yellow bullsh*t flag on this one. I've been around high end home and car audio for 27 years. I'm pretty astute at figuring out when a manufacturer is doing the ol' two step dance trying to explain why they just cheapened their product. The bottom line is this. Balanced is more expensive. It often doubles the expense of the internals, and takes good design to properly implement. Cars are NOT LESS prone to electrical issues; they are MORE prone to these issues given the evolving computers onboard. Right now, this explanation just doesn't hold water. Who knows, we may get that backlit led logo to replace it though!


----------



## sulla123

I want to thank you for providing Zapco's OWN words on the subject of RCA signal transmission. I'm pasting part of it here: 

The Problems:
The very nature of the RCA design makes it less than ideal for automotive use. We have two major problems in cars that are not found in the home. First, the car has an alternator that produces electrical current and sends it to all areas of the car through the car’s electrical system. This noise will try to find its way into the signal path through the electrical ground connection of the stereo. In addition to creating noise, the electrical system can also degrade sound by passing various frequencies into the signal wire and distorting the signal.
RCA cables are susceptible to these problems by nature of their design. RCA’s provide only three discrete paths for the signal. Right and left positive each have an amplified path from head unit to amplifier, but both negative paths must share the shield ground (See diagrams). This sets an open path from your signal directly to the chassis of the head unit and from there directly to the car’s alternator (The very source of the noise).
Another problem is run length. While home components are close together, the components in a car system are spread throughout the vehicle. It’s not unusual to have 20 to 60 feet of signal cable in a car installation. RCA cabling is High Impedance by nature. This, combined with being able to amplify only the positive lead, creates considerable signal loss between the head unit and the amplifier.
The Solution:
One answer to all the problems...Balanced signal lines. A balanced signal transmission system provides separate, discrete signal paths for both positive and negative sides of each channel. This eliminates the reference between the signal negative and the radio chassis. thus closing the path between the cars electrical system and the stereo signal. (See diagrams)
The SymbiLink Balanced system takes the balanced signal even further. SymbiLink combines balanced signals with our SymbiLink Line transformer and our SymbiLink cable. In one step we have eliminated all the problems inherent to signal transmission in the automotive environment.
The SymbiLink Balanced System provides low impedance, high voltage, and balanced signal for the best sound possible in a car.
3
The SymbiLink Balanced Line System
The “Symmetrical, Bi-directional Link” was originally developed by General Motor’s scientists, in the early ‘90s, to provide high speed, noise free, data transmission between the ECMs and computers of cars in the digital age. Recently, computer engineers have discovered the system, which they have termed “Fire Wire” and have adopted it as the IEEE-1394, data transmission standard.
ARPA of America adopted the system for use in its Zapco brand of amplifiers and signal processors some years ago. In 1993, ARPA engineers realized that this new technology was the ideal system for audio signal transmission. The system, with three sets of shielded, twisted pair wires, allowed them to take Zapco’s differentially balanced input stage to the next level of audio performance. A true “Balanced” audio transmission system for the car environment.
ARPA’s version of the system, named SymbiLink, consists of two elements. The first is a differentially balanced line driver, to provide a high voltage, low impedance, balanced signal source. Secondly, the SymbiLink system uses the SymbiLink cable itself. This cable provides a separate positive and negative signal path for each signal channel. It also provides a third pair of shielded wires, which can be used to move ±15v, through the system to power the various components.
These components result in what we at ARPA of America believe is clearly the best system of audio signal transmission ever developed. All of the US built Zapco products now use the SymbiLink Balanced Line system. On the following pages we will show you the various SymbiLink products and their features, as well as explain the advantages of SymbiLink and provide some technical data on the cables themselves.
So, enjoy this manual! We hope you will read it all the way through. We have tried to include all the information you will need to enjoy the full potential of your new SymbiLink product.

I guess either it wasn't the problem they wrote it was, or this smacks of cost-cutting. You decide guys and gals.


----------



## darrenforeal

listen guys... I'm a huge fan of zapco. In all my installs with them I use the symbilink and they have been a great band-aid way to combat noise. That said, they are not a true balanced signal anyways unless a balanced sig comes from the HU too. Most of us using these have the few inches of RCA to the transmitter which then goes to the 3 to 6 meters of symbilink line. IMO it doesn't improve the sq over rca at all, but is an easy band aid way to combat noise. Some cars it is worse than others. For instance, my 1993 BMW 5 series. Horrible noise issues. A 1987 e30 I used to have and a 95 m3 I have, don't have much issues.

Really looking forward for more info on the Z series.


----------



## robert_wrath

darrenforeal said:


> Really looking forward for more info on the Z series.


+1...........especially the new DSP-Z8! Consider this sold.


----------



## 12v Electronics

darrenforeal said:


> listen guys... I'm a huge fan of zapco. In all my installs with them I use the symbilink and they have been a great band-aid way to combat noise. That said, they are not a true balanced signal anyways unless a balanced sig comes from the HU too. Most of us using these have the few inches of RCA to the transmitter which then goes to the 3 to 6 meters of symbilink line. IMO it doesn't improve the sq over rca at all, but is an easy band aid way to combat noise. Some cars it is worse than others. For instance, my 1993 BMW 5 series. Horrible noise issues. A 1987 e30 I used to have and a 95 m3 I have, don't have much issues.
> 
> Really looking forward for more info on the Z series.


I would call it far from a "band-aid". True balanced cables do reject noise. That is proven. Picking up noise in the signal path before it becomes balanced is always a distinct possibility, but shortening that antenna as much as possible is always a great option.

Personally I am in a love hate relationship with Symbilink. Love just about everything about it except the lack of "thru-puts" of it. I hate splitting it up to get the same signal to multiple amplifiers. It really uglies up an install no doubt not to mention the cost of splitters, and cables. RCA's solve part of that.


----------



## darrenforeal

12v Electronics said:


> I would call it far from a "band-aid". True balanced cables do reject noise. That is proven. Picking up noise in the signal path before it becomes balanced is always a distinct possibility, but shortening that antenna as much as possible is always a great option.
> 
> Personally I am in a love hate relationship with Symbilink. Love just about everything about it except the lack of "thru-puts" of it. I hate splitting it up to get the same signal to multiple amplifiers. It really uglies up an install no doubt not to mention the cost of splitters, and cables. RCA's solve part of that.


I agree with you. And love symbilink too. kinda. lol. But it isn't true balanced because it doesn't come out of the source that way. YEs most of it is. ANd it blocks noise RCAs just don't. And it is a type of band aid in most car audio applications where it is used primarily for noise rejection issues. It is in the sense that it fixes the symptom but not the cause. Nothing wrong with this. It is what it is. For example a car that has noise issues may be better served by putting a noise capacitor inline right off the alternator. Yes that is a band aid too, but it gets closer to the solution. Still doesn't fix the true problem. Maybe the car has whacky grounding planes etc. Anyways, I don't want to make this into a debate about symbilink, because I used them and like them. 

Zapco is a business. And it's reasons for cutting the symbilink out is their own. People can make of it what they will. I still look forward to their new lines


----------



## sulla123

"True balanced" has nothing to do with the source. It has to do with the implementation and the signal transmission. From the time it exits a symbilink processor, it is "true balanced" versus "differential balanced". What you are referring to is "balanced from source to output via amplifier" which has nothing to do with "true balanced". I understand what you are saying, but your terminology is wrong. If you google "balanced line transmission", you will see what I am talking about. You are correct in saying that the longer the RCA lead that goes into the blt, the more likely noise is inducted before the balanced transmission occurs. That is why the shorter the RCA, the better the benefit. Additionally, I use a Denon Z1 head unit, which has balanced outputs, and I have the cables which transmit the signal directly to the amp. Hence, my own personal concern. Of greater concern to me was my perception that Zapco's explanation for dropping Symbilink was pure cost-cutting, and had nothing to do with it being "unnecessary". Nor am I saying that others shouldn't invest in their new lines. However, anytime a manufacturer throws out what I believe is pure bullsh*t, I no longer buy their stuff. It's that simple. Others, of course, will continue to support the company, and that's their right, and I'm not saying they shouldn't.


----------



## darrenforeal

sulla123 said:


> "True balanced" has nothing to do with the source. It has to do with the implementation and the signal transmission. From the time it exits a symbilink processor, it is "true balanced" versus "differential balanced". What you are referring to is "balanced from source to output via amplifier" which has nothing to do with "true balanced". I understand what you are saying, but your terminology is wrong. If you google "balanced line transmission", you will see what I am talking about. You are correct in saying that the longer the RCA lead that goes into the blt, the more likely noise is inducted before the balanced transmission occurs. That is why the shorter the RCA, the better the benefit. Additionally, I use a Denon Z1 head unit, which has balanced outputs, and I have the cables which transmit the signal directly to the amp. Hence, my own personal concern. Of greater concern to me was my perception that Zapco's explanation for dropping Symbilink was pure cost-cutting, and had nothing to do with it being "unnecessary". Nor am I saying that others shouldn't invest in their new lines. However, anytime a manufacturer throws out what I believe is pure bullsh*t, I no longer buy their stuff. It's that simple. Others, of course, will continue to support the company, and that's their right, and I'm not saying they shouldn't.


fair enough. thanks for correcting my terminology. But, my point is still valid i think. In addition, since you have that HU, yes it is a bigger deal for you. But also even with the rca lead from the HU to the symbilink transmitter, it still usually solves noise issues. And I agree it is a shame that Zapco is dropping it. And I see your reasoning for your frustration, and I think it is valid.


----------



## sulla123

No problem, and I am very cognizant that this will not be a big issue for some other buyers. I have a hard time seeing the difference now between Zapco amps and any other decently made amplifier, as they all do basically the same thing. If the design is sound, and the parts quality is there, there just isn't much of a difference in amps, unless they are balanced vs. single-ended.


----------



## ACJohn

*Re: Zapco - SymbiLink*

********??
Nobody who's ever dealt with me has ever accused me of bullshitting them about anything. For the record I am the one who started giving away SymbiLink to get folks to use it. Before that the amps had the din plug and a din to RCA adapter. Maybe 1 in 40 people bought the the transmitters. 
But, by the time I left in '07 I felt we were losing the advantages that made SymbiLink worth the money (to the customer, mind you. It wasn't coming out of my pocket) because noise issues were different than they were in '90. 
Especially in multichannel amps. In '04 we were getting complaints of noise in the 4 channel amps. We did a lot of experimenting with the marketing director's car and found that 2 SymbiLink cables going to the amp created the same ground loop issues as any other cable. We found a solution, as I said before, but it was big, ugly, and expensive. Fact not BS, and turns out old Z-400 did have the same issue, we just didn't know it when we built it.

The DC line has nothing to do with this decision, however the DC line does have balanced inputs. Of course you can have balanced inputs with RCA connectors....just don't common the ground. Then it's just another 2 conductor plug.

On top of everything else, for every 1 convert, I got 20 people who didn't like the quality of the cable, the length of the cable, the price of the cable, or their lack of choice in cabling.

Keep in mind that all I am saying is that the advantages SymbiLink are no longer worth the business cost of holding on to it. For the record the actual cost difference at the amp input stage is less than $2.00.

As soon as we get the amps out I will start working on processing again and we will have a balanced line driver so you can run high voltage, low impedance signal down to the amp. That's what you will miss most and you don't need the SymbiLink cable for that.

If you disagree, fine, that doesn't make it ********.


----------



## cyberdraven

John, sorry for asking this again, how's the z series? Paterned before the c2ks or a rebirth of the old ones? What happens to the c2k and the new class a amps?

Btw, no issues on the symbilink. Still, it looks flawless. Maybe a rebirth of the external dac will be more yummy! Hehehe


----------



## ACJohn

sulla123 said:


> No problem, and I am very cognizant that this will not be a big issue for some other buyers. I have a hard time seeing the difference now between Zapco amps and any other decently made amplifier, as they all do basically the same thing. If the design is sound, and the parts quality is there, there just isn't much of a difference in amps, unless they are balanced vs. single-ended.


I disagree, I believe there are big differences in sound between different amps. Otherwise we would all be buying the same chrome amps. Our goal in the new amps was absolutely to make them _sound_ better. Otherwise, why bother? 

SymbiLink did not affect the _sound_ of the amp. It affected only the signal going to the amp.

John


----------



## rain27

It's amazing the level of patience/tolerance it takes to be a company rep on this site. :laugh:

And this is even before product has reached the market!


----------



## 12v Electronics

Keep up the great work John! It is much appreciated.


----------



## DeanE10

John... You rock, keep it up man!!

Some folks may seem a bit on edge but I am sure they will come around once they see that Zapco will once again produce the same quality amp as it always has, just more up to date with the user feedback and requests.


----------



## darrenforeal

rain27 said:


> It's amazing the level of patience/tolerance it takes to be a company rep on this site. :laugh:
> 
> And this is even before product has reached the market!


this is true. lol



ACJohn said:


> As soon as we get the amps out I will start working on processing again and we will have a balanced line driver so you can run high voltage, low impedance signal down to the amp.


good to hear


----------



## ACJohn

cyberdraven said:


> John, sorry for asking this again, how's the z series? Paterned before the c2ks or a rebirth of the old ones? What happens to the c2k and the new class a amps?
> 
> Btw, no issues on the symbilink. Still, it looks flawless. Maybe a rebirth of the external dac will be more yummy! Hehehe


I can tell you a little about it but I'm not an engineer. Mauro in Italy did most of the board work, I mostly whine and cry till they give me what I want. Basically the amp design is the same as the C2K and Reference...and every other amp we've built. The bias circuit is fixed in the Z's and the power supply is a little different as they are 4-ohm mono. We do have the ZX-Series coming also that is 2-ohm mono for the more power hungry. The A/B's are 500 x 2 and 200 x 4, and either one will bridge down to about 2000 watts at 2ohm mono.

From there we could have stopped on the theory that all amps sound the same. But personally, I think that's ludicrous. In the digi-world an amp is just a step-up transformer, but my world there are a whole lot of parts in an amplifier as well as different amp designs. I'm not an engineer but I did go to school and I had a little physics. Every single part that goes into an amp is going to have some effect on the sound that comes out. 

So my theory: Fewer parts is better and the right parts is (are) critical.
We started with the amp. We listened. We played (with parts). We listened again. We played. We listened. It's all about parts.

I think we have better sound than C2K at about (in most cases) the price of Reference. You'll have to listen to see if you agree. Build is starting today and we should have production samples at the end of the month and product in the warehouse 2nd week May...or there about

John


----------



## btreez

Love Zapco!


----------



## rain27

The DC amps can be used as standard amps as well, correct? 

In other words, if I used them and wanted to fidget with other processors, the Zapco dsp within the amps could be bypassed?


----------



## rcurley55

rain27 said:


> The DC amps can be used as standard amps as well, correct?
> 
> In other words, if I used them and wanted to fidget with other processors, the Zapco dsp within the amps could be bypassed?


Sure. Just set the gain on them as you would any other amp. You can leave the eq flat and even leave the crossovers off. No need to add time delay either.


----------



## rain27

Are the new DC amps available yet?


----------



## DeanE10

rain27 said:


> Are the new DC amps available yet?


Last I heard they would be ready for sale Mid June/July time frame depending on how this next round of testing goes...


----------



## robert_wrath

rain27 said:


> Are the new DC amps available yet?





DeanE10 said:


> Last I heard they would be ready for sale Mid June/July time frame depending on how this next round of testing goes...


This is to be expected from Zapco. Same incident occurred when the DSP-6 debuted. No rush to perfection! Build it correct or none at all. _*

M*_*ost *manufacturers in this industry rush a product out to the market for volume selling.


----------



## DeanE10

I am excited and cant wait! I just picked up the older DC line but after working with John it looks like the new configuration is going to be the Z Series with the DSP8


----------



## DaleCarter

I have always wanted to own Zapco amps eventually and I just purchased a 650.6 and DSP6-SL. I have a few observations;

1) the build quality is everything I expected and is flawless
2) how will the release of the new items affect support for my DSP6-SL and Ref 650.6?
2) the "explanation" for dropping Symbilink is bunk
3) the website has achieved a level of "weapons-grade suck"
4) I can't WAIT to get the install completed


----------



## kyheng

Balanced system are more on home audio or hall usage where you need to wire it up 100M or 200M...
Boosting the signal till >8V are pretty useless on short distance....


----------



## ACJohn

DaleCarter said:


> I have always wanted to own Zapco amps eventually and I just purchased a 650.6 and DSP6-SL. I have a few observations;
> 
> 1) the build quality is everything I expected and is flawless
> 2) how will the release of the new items affect support for my DSP6-SL and Ref 650.6?
> 2) the "explanation" for dropping Symbilink is bunk
> 3) the website has achieved a level of "weapons-grade suck"
> 4) I can't WAIT to get the install completed


Hi,
1) Great, thank you!

2) Generally support doesn't become a problem for at least 15 years. After that time technology can obsolete some parts. As long as we can get parts we will fix 'em. Once parts go obsolete we stop repairing here because part swapping can cause other issues with a unit that we don't want to be responsible for.

Other2) Symbilink is gone - I'm done

3) Yes I know!! I'm trying to get it taken care of! 

4) Let me know how it turns [email protected]

John


----------



## robert_wrath

DaleCarter said:


> I have always wanted to own Zapco amps eventually and I just purchased a 650.6 and DSP6-SL. I have a few observations;
> 
> 1) the build quality is everything I expected and is flawless
> 2) how will the release of the new items affect support for my DSP6-SL and Ref 650.6?
> *2) the "explanation" for dropping Symbilink is bunk*
> 3) the website has achieved a level of "weapons-grade suck"
> 4) I can't WAIT to get the install completed





ACJohn said:


> Hi,
> 1) Great, thank you!
> 
> 2) Generally support doesn't become a problem for at least 15 years. After that time technology can obsolete some parts. As long as we can get parts we will fix 'em. Once parts go obsolete we stop repairing here because part swapping can cause other issues with a unit that we don't want to be responsible for.
> 
> _*Other2) *_Symbilink is gone - I'm done
> 
> 3) Yes I know!! I'm trying to get it taken care of!
> John


:laugh:* LOL, This one's Epic!* :laugh:


----------



## benny

The new sink looks good, but does it really say "Sound Q Amplifier" on it? Also, I want a DSP-Z8


----------



## ChrisB

benny said:


> Also, I want a DSP-Z8


They have until June to get the Z8 to market... Otherwise I am going to go with the Mosconi processor!


----------



## robert_wrath




----------



## robert_wrath

*Say it again - Zapco DSP-Z8*


----------



## ChrisB

robert_wrath said:


>


Yes, I know MAP is cheaper on the Zapco when compared to the Mosconi. Tell me where I can walk into a dealer and purchase one today... As in right now, with cash in hand!


----------



## robert_wrath

ChrisB said:


> Yes, I know MAP is cheaper on the Zapco when compared to the Mosconi. Tell me where I can walk into a dealer and purchase one today... As in right now, with cash in hand!


Shiat...........I'm PayPal ready here. Yank out my DSP6 & in with the new.


----------



## robert_wrath

The item descriptions are up on the Zapco Homepage for the following:
Zapco - Zapco Quality Products

- *Z Series* Zapco - The Z- Series

- *ZX Series* Zapco - The ZX series

- *DC Series* Zapco - DC Series


----------



## robert_wrath

Look at this SPL juggernaut:


----------



## kyheng

Dropped the symbilink but no drop in price.....


----------



## darrenforeal

robert_wrath said:


> Look at this SPL juggernaut:


yeah that one is ridiculous. lol. Can't wait to see how people compare the sound of the new Z series to the Arc SEs


----------



## robert_wrath

ACJohn, you're killin me with these product teasers on the site.................I Love It!!!!!!!


----------



## Sulley

kyheng said:


> Dropped the symbilink but no drop in price.....


I think the prices are reasonable, If they do what that they claim. Which I'm sure they will.

That new Z 150.6 is very interesting... No sizes posted, I wonder how long it is.


----------



## james2266

stockley.rod said:


> I think the prices are reasonable, If they do what that they claim. Which I'm sure they will.
> 
> That new Z 150.6 is very interesting... No sizes posted, I wonder how long it is.



I was wondering the exact same thing on all of their new amps. That is the number one thing that has stopped me from looking at all of their amps in the past actually.


----------



## rain27

kyheng said:


> Dropped the symbilink but no drop in price.....


Symbilink was not a cost factor...this was already covered.


----------



## kyheng

stockley.rod said:


> I think the prices are reasonable, If they do what that they claim. Which I'm sure they will.
> 
> That new Z 150.6 is very interesting... No sizes posted, I wonder how long it is.


I was expecting the DC line ups to be slightly cheaper with the removal of symbilink.... Guess I have to forget about this brand again....


----------



## ACJohn

*Re: Zapco - Amp Sizes*

Oops...I'm sorry. We'll get the sizes up on the site.
For Now: The all the Z's and the ZX A/Bs are 7.5" wide x 2.3" tall.
Length: 150s are -11.8", 17.3", and 22.5". The 400.2 is 19" the 200.4 is 25.5 and the 500.2 is 26"

The Class Ds in the Z series are in the same chassis. 1K is 10.7", 2K is 17.7" and the 3K is 24.4"

John


----------



## [email protected]

I like how the 4.150 can be bridged to 1 channel at 5400 watts


----------



## DaleCarter

One thing that doesn't bother me about Zapco is the pricing. Quality costs. 

I also wouldn't expect a price drop to go with exchanging Symbilink, for RCA's. The components involved are dirt cheap and may even offset each other. There actually is a cost savings... all those proprietary (but very nice) cables  

If performance is still up to par, and I have no reason to think that it isn't, the prices are fine. This is a case of getting what you pay for. I have FINALLY bought some used Zapco gear and, after seeing it first hand, wish I had made the jump years ago.


----------



## tyroneshoes

John,

I know youre no longer working with ESB but are you planning anything regarding high end speakers? The current lines seem so cheap in comparison. Are you (Zapco) bowing out of the speaker aspect of car audio?


----------



## ACJohn

tyroneshoes said:


> John,
> 
> I know youre no longer working with ESB but are you planning anything regarding high end speakers? The current lines seem so cheap in comparison. Are you (Zapco) bowing out of the speaker aspect of car audio?


You're right about the last Zapco speakers, they weren't ESB, and we won't be doing that again. So...

Not bowing out but definitely re-grouping. As is, actually, ESB. The last product was great but the method of getting to market was not consistent. I am already working with the engineers over in Italy on what we want. The idea is to get the same sound with an easier install....if possible! 

Branding last time was a fiasco, so when it comes it won't be Zapco, it will be ESB. This time we will just be the proud importer. ESB is the speaker company. When they are ready, we will import and distribute ESB loudspeakers.

This will not be an overnight deal though. The last line took over 18 months to put together so I wouldn't look for anything for at least a year. 

John


----------



## DeanE10

Are we getting closer to being able to BUY the new Z's yet?


----------



## robert_wrath

ACJohn said:


> You're right about the last Zapco speakers, they weren't ESB, and we won't be doing that again. So...
> 
> Not bowing out but definitely re-grouping. As is, actually, ESB. The last product was great but the method of getting to market was not consistent. I am already working with the engineers over in Italy on what we want. The idea is to get the same sound with an easier install....if possible!
> 
> *Branding last time was a fiasco, so when it comes it won't be Zapco, it will be ESB. This time we will just be the proud importer. ESB is the speaker company. When they are ready, we will import and distribute ESB loudspeakers*.
> 
> This will not be an overnight deal though. The last line took over 18 months to put together so I wouldn't look for anything for at least a year.
> John


The company is heating up. This round might be insane!


----------



## highspeed

John - Can you post the dimensions of the DSP-Z8? I wonder if it will fit where I want to install it.

I have always wanted to own Zapco products and it looks like the DSP-Z8 will be my first, then on to the amplifiers.

Thank you for all your hard work, I am happy to support US companies making high quality gear!


----------



## ACJohn

highspeed said:


> John - Can you post the dimensions of the DSP-Z8? I wonder if it will fit where I want to install it.
> 
> I have always wanted to own Zapco products and it looks like the DSP-Z8 will be my first, then on to the amplifiers.
> 
> Thank you for all your hard work, I am happy to support US companies making high quality gear!


Happen to have the final approval unit in my hand...
It's 2.2 x 7.2 x 8.75


John


----------



## highspeed

ACJohn said:


> Happen to have the final approval unit in my hand...
> It's 2.2 x 7.2 x 8.75
> 
> 
> John


I wish I had thought of this additional question when I requested dimensions but are there going to be any controllers, displays, subwoofer volume, type things available for this DSP? 

I'm planning a simple active system but using a Kenwood double din DVD unit until a higher quality double din entertainment source becomes available.

Thanks again John!


----------



## Richv72

I love zapco amps


----------



## db_Outlaw

Just wanted to chime in with what I've been reading here.

I've been a loyal Zapco fan for about 10 years. Prior to Zapco, I would upgrade my amps once a year, until I bought a suite of C2K amps. I was finally "happy" with my amps. Didn't care for [cost] of the symbilink cables though but at the savings of not continually upgrading amps; I could tolerate it.

For the record, I never had a problem with any of my Zapco gear (6 C2K amps, and dual EQs). Even when my amps got damaged in a car accident, Zapco repaired them at no cost to me (shop may have ate it). Really happy with Zapco customer support in this regard.

As a professional web designer, I've always had a beef with Zapco's website. I agree with all the comments being stated about developing on a production server. I'd really like to see their website re-designed. Your website is part of your brand, it speaks for you and quite frankly, it's detracting from the quality that we all known Zapco covets. Please, pay a professional company to redo your website after the new inventory is added. The old adage is true, people do judge a book by its cover.

For multiple reasons I won't get into, I've decided to try another manufacturer with my new vehicle. I did so with a heavy heart though, as I have a lot of respect for Zapco. I'd still wouldn't hesitate to recommend their products.

Also, my thanks to John for his responses and continued customer service; and perhaps most of all, his thick skin.


----------



## DeanE10

db_Outlaw said:


> As a professional web designer, I've always had a beef with Zapco's website. I agree with all the comments being stated about developing on a production server. I'd really like to see their website re-designed. Your website is part of your brand, it speaks for you and quite frankly, it's detracting from the quality that we all known Zapco covets. Please, pay a professional company to redo your website after the new inventory is added. The old adage is true, people do judge a book by its cover.


I know right ?!?!?! 

I have been bugging John about this for several weeks/months now... I will keep on him until he lets me do it...


----------



## db_Outlaw

DeanE10 said:


> I know right ?!?!?!
> 
> I have been bugging John about this for several weeks/months now... I will keep on him until he lets me do it...


I've been designing local government websites since '99 so my style probably wouldn't be Zapco's best fit. However, I am well-versed in usability/accessibility and am happy to offer my recommendations on any prototypes currently under consideration. Hell, I'll even do it for free; well maybe for a T-shirt


----------



## Matt R

db_Outlaw said:


> I've been designing local government websites since '99 so my style probably wouldn't be Zapco's best fit. However, I am well-versed in usability/accessibility and am happy to offer my recommendations on any prototypes currently under consideration. Hell, I'll even do it for free; well maybe for a T-shirt


SOLD!!!!!:laugh:


----------



## robert_wrath

Matt R said:


> SOLD!!!!!:laugh:


Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner! Give that man a Cigar!


----------



## Jsracing

I've been a long time Zapco fan and owned a couple of Studio & Z-series amps well over a decade ago. Priorities have changed though and as much as I'd like to try the new Z or ZX series, I'm mostly interested in the Studio D amps. There is no info on the site though. Can you provide additional info with some basic specs and estimate pricing?

Thanks very much.


----------



## Slick

Studio D amps have 4 sizes. 
ST2D: 2x200 MSRP= $330
ST4D: 4x200 MSRP=$440
ST5D: 4x100+ 1x350= $550
ST1DM:1x600 MSRP= $440


----------



## robert_wrath

Slick said:


> Studio D amps have 4 sizes.
> ST2D: 2x200 MSRP= $330
> ST4D: 4x200 MSRP=$440
> ST5D: 4x100+ 1x350= $550
> ST1DM:1x600 MSRP= $440


These puppies are gonna sell big time. Look at that competitive price. ACJohn knows how to captivate a buyer (I sound like a Brown Noser).


----------



## robert_wrath

*Bump - get use to this. It'll be a weekly trend until the units are available.*




robert_wrath said:


> *Say it again - Zapco DSP-Z8*





robert_wrath said:


>


----------



## Jsracing

Slick said:


> Studio D amps have 4 sizes.
> ST2D: 2x200 MSRP= $330
> ST4D: 4x200 MSRP=$440
> ST5D: 4x100+ 1x350= $550
> ST1DM:1x600 MSRP= $440


Wowzers, I dont think I'd ev er need that much power per channel. Awesome prices!


----------



## Sulley

Jsracing said:


> Wowzers, I dont think I'd ev er need that much power per channel....


liar


----------



## abdulwq

they are not very expensive...looking forward to try them


----------



## barracuda777

John:
Are you going to release some android aplication or some info for developer to do it?
If Zapco is trying to hit market, this can be a fenomal oportunity. Mac support for ipad would be nice too........but android first please


----------



## southpawskater

robert_wrath said:


> *Bump - get use to this. It'll be a weekly trend until the units are available.*


X2, I need 8 channels of processing that has a zapco badge on it. I cant have the JBL unit detracting from the Zapco theme in my trunk. :laugh:


----------



## rain27

Slick said:


> Studio D amps have 4 sizes.
> ST2D: 2x200 MSRP= $330
> ST4D: 4x200 MSRP=$440
> ST5D: 4x100+ 1x350= $550
> ST1DM:1x600 MSRP= $440


Are these stackable?


----------



## james2266

rain27 said:


> Are these stackable?


I'd also like to know all the other stats too like dimensions, snr, damping factor, thd, etc


----------



## Sulley

Slick said:


> Studio D amps have 4 sizes.
> ST2D: 2x200 MSRP= $330
> ST4D: 4x200 MSRP=$440
> ST5D: 4x100+ 1x350= $550
> ST1DM:1x600 MSRP= $440


Ok, That ST4D. Is that 4x200watts RMS? 

A quick Google search comes up with this: ST 4D-

Stated there a 4x160watts RMS. Regardless 160wrms is impressive.

Any dealers on the Canadian east coast? I've sent a couple of emails of dealer inquiries, No response yet.


----------



## ACJohn

stockley.rod said:


> Ok, That ST4D. Is that 4x200watts RMS?
> 
> A quick Google search comes up with this: ST 4D-
> 
> Stated there a 4x160watts RMS. Regardless 160wrms is impressive.
> 
> Any dealers on the Canadian east coast? I've sent a couple of emails of dealer inquiries, No response yet.


Slick has preliminary specs used during development. The engineers set 100/ch @ 4 ohms and 160/ch @ 2 ohms as rated power for the final production units. Damping on the small full range Ds is over 200. The small Mono bass amps are higher. THD on all rated .05%, S/N > 90dB 

I just finished final field testing on the ST-4D
Distortion on one in my car is [email protected] 80Hz, [email protected] 1K, and .014 @ 10K. Power on it is 135/ch at 4 ohms and a shade over 200 at clipping @ 2ohms. An odd thing about the power on these is that its good to about 6kHz, then power at clipping goes up. At 10K, the one I was using didn't clip until about 160 watts at 4 ohms. This should be good for keeping the highs clean when you're running the bass and mid-bass right at the limit.

We're shooting the last 2 units tomorrow and then we'll get them up on the web site. The chassis are all 6.7" wide and 2.2" tall. Length on the 2ch is 6.3", 4ch is 7.8", 5 ch is 10.6", The 500w bass is 7.5" and the 1000w bass is 9.8"

Canada: I came back to re-start product development and marketing (sales). We have nothing going in Canada right now. I'm glad to work with anybody up there directly if we can get it across the border effectively. Sound FX in Alberta used do do a lot using Fed/EX. They seem to work well with customs. I'd like to have a distributor eventually but I'm open for suggestions from any dealers up there on the forum. Drop me a note at [email protected]

John


----------



## james2266

ACJohn said:


> Slick has preliminary specs used during development. The engineers set 100/ch @ 4 ohms and 160/ch @ 2 ohms as rated power for the final production units. Damping on the small full range Ds is over 200. The small Mono bass amps are higher. THD on all rated .05%, S/N > 90dB
> 
> I just finished final field testing on the ST-4D
> Distortion on one in my car is [email protected] 80Hz, [email protected] 1K, and .014 @ 10K. Power on it is 135/ch at 4 ohms and a shade over 200 at clipping @ 2ohms. An odd thing about the power on these is that its good to about 6kHz, then power at clipping goes up. At 10K, the one I was using didn't clip until about 160 watts at 4 ohms. This should be good for keeping the highs clean when you're running the bass and mid-bass right at the limit.
> 
> We're shooting the last 2 units tomorrow and then we'll get them up on the web site. The chassis are all 6.7" wide and 2.2" tall. Length on the 2ch is 6.3", 4ch is 7.8", 5 ch is 10.6", The 500w bass is 7.5" and the 1000w bass is 9.8"
> 
> Canada: I came back to re-start product development and marketing (sales). We have nothing going in Canada right now. I'm glad to work with anybody up there directly if we can get it across the border effectively. Sound FX in Alberta used do do a lot using Fed/EX. They seem to work well with customs. I'd like to have a distributor eventually but I'm open for suggestions from any dealers up there on the forum. Drop me a note at [email protected]
> 
> John


FX Audio in Edmonton I assume is the dealer you are talking about here. I made a trip up there last Friday for the first time to check out some Dynaudio speakers for the first time. They were powered by Zapco REF amps and it seems that Zapco is there amp of choice to use there. I was very impressed by what I heard for sure BUT, was it the speakers, the amp or a combination? That is my problem. It is a shame that Zapco amps are so long or I would be able to seriously consider them. Alas, I think they are just too large for my install. These new class D amps look nice size wise but I doubt they hold a candle to your upper end ab offerings from an sq perspective. Anyways, FX gave me no indication that they had any intension of moving away from Zapco...


----------



## Sonus

John, have you got anymore info on when the ST-xD-series and the DSP-Z8 will start shipping?


----------



## robert_wrath

ACJohn said:


> Slick has preliminary specs used during development. The engineers set 100/ch @ 4 ohms and 160/ch @ 2 ohms as rated power for the final production units. Damping on the small full range Ds is over 200. The small Mono bass amps are higher. THD on all rated .05%, S/N > 90dB
> 
> I just finished final field testing on the ST-4D
> Distortion on one in my car is [email protected] 80Hz, [email protected] 1K, and .014 @ 10K. Power on it is 135/ch at 4 ohms and a shade over 200 at clipping @ 2ohms. An odd thing about the power on these is that its good to about 6kHz, then power at clipping goes up. At 10K, the one I was using didn't clip until about 160 watts at 4 ohms. This should be good for keeping the highs clean when you're running the bass and mid-bass right at the limit.
> 
> We're shooting the last 2 units tomorrow and then we'll get them up on the web site. The chassis are all 6.7" wide and 2.2" tall. Length on the 2ch is 6.3", 4ch is 7.8", 5 ch is 10.6", The 500w bass is 7.5" and the 1000w bass is 9.8"
> 
> Canada: I came back to re-start product development and marketing (sales). We have nothing going in Canada right now. I'm glad to work with anybody up there directly if we can get it across the border effectively. Sound FX in Alberta used do do a lot using Fed/EX. They seem to work well with customs. I'd like to have a distributor eventually but I'm open for suggestions from any dealers up there on the forum. Drop me a note at [email protected]
> 
> John


A Marketing Director who claims weeks ago didn't know much about engineering schematics now sounds like an Audioholic.......................



















*------------> I Like It! <-----------
*


----------



## DeanE10

james2266;1636090It is a shame that Zapco amps are so long or I would be able to seriously consider them. Alas said:


> James - Make sure to check out the new Zapco Z line... They are smaller and very very nice. I will be swapping out my DC line for them shortly!
> 
> I will be running:
> 4EA: Z-150.2
> 4EA: Z-1KD


----------



## james2266

DeanE10 said:


> James - Make sure to check out the new Zapco Z line... They are smaller and very very nice. I will be swapping out my DC line for them shortly!
> 
> I will be running:
> 4EA: Z-150.2
> 4EA: Z-1KD


You are going to run 8 amps? I did look at the specs for that line and yes, I might be able to do something. I could use the Z-150.4 even if that is overkill for a set of 3 inch midranges and tweeters but that would only leave me with 13-maybe 14 inches by 8 or so inches of realestate for a sub amp that puts out around 1200 watts at 2 ohms. The Z400.2 looks perfect until you see the dimensions (almost 19 inches long). If I decide to do anything with my amps (a big if), I might consider mixing that z400.2 with something smaller (Audiosystem x-Ion 70.4 maybe as a suggestion) to replace my 5.1k. I am not sold that a new amp is my problem yet however. Thanks for the suggestion however. They look to be some strong amps indeed. I wonder how they will compare to other high end stuff like Arc SE, Mosconi, Sinfoni, etc.


----------



## DeanE10

james2266 said:


> I wonder how they will compare to other high end stuff like Arc SE, Mosconi, Sinfoni, etc.


Yes, I will be running a Z-150.2 on a pair of 3" HAT L3SE's, another on a par of 6" HAT L6's, and another on a pair of 4" HAT L4's and the last one on a pair of 3" HAT L3's... The Z-1k's will be 1 bridged to each 15" DC Level 5's... That's my new system plan 

Compare? I guess that is a never ending battle, an answer that you will have to figure it out on your own. For every person that tells you one is better, you will find one that tell you it's not.

I have tried a metric TON of amps and have been nothing but impressed with the Zapco DC line. It's clean, flexible, configurable, very powerful and when you call them, they are awesome to work with.

Zapco is the high end and has been for many years... You just have to decide if it is the right sound in your vehicle. No matter what you hear in a sound room, it is not exactly the same as hearing it in your car. Find an event in your local area and have a listen to the SQL vehicles there, see what they are running, etc... It helps allot!


----------



## james2266

DeanE10 said:


> Yes, I will be running a Z-150.2 on a pair of 3" HAT L3SE's, another on a par of 6" HAT L6's, and another on a pair of 4" HAT L4's and the last one on a pair of 3" HAT L3's... The Z-1k's will be 1 bridged to each 15" DC Level 5's... That's my new system plan
> 
> Compare? I guess that is a never ending battle, an answer that you will have to figure it out on your own. For every person that tells you one is better, you will find one that tell you it's not.
> 
> I have tried a metric TON of amps and have been nothing but impressed with the Zapco DC line. It's clean, flexible, configurable, very powerful and when you call them, they are awesome to work with.
> 
> Zapco is the high end and has been for many years... You just have to decide if it is the right sound in your vehicle. No matter what you hear in a sound room, it is not exactly the same as hearing it in your car. Find an event in your local area and have a listen to the SQL vehicles there, see what they are running, etc... It helps allot!


If it were only that simple here. About the only thing hearable here is Audison and that is what I am running. I did get to check out the tiny Arc SE 2 channel in a car while in Vegas and was impressed. I think I listened to some PG there in another car but it was more geared towards spl I think - sure pounded anyways. 

As for going to a sound show here, that is exactly what I would love to do but sadly noone ever runs them here. The few that I can find around here within a doable distance by car are always spl based and that is not what I am going for. My installer also told me that they suck in Canada and that to truly get a read on different hi end installs I would have to go to one deep in the US (Cali or Florida areas). I almost was able to attend the April south Cal. get together and that would have shaped my opinions likely and put a major dent in my wallet. I have already spent so much on this hobby it is disgusting. Does it end?


----------



## ACJohn

*Re: Zapco - New product*



robert_wrath said:


> A Marketing Director who claims weeks ago didn't know much about engineering schematics now sounds like an Audioholic.......................
> 
> 
> *------------> I Like It! <-----------
> *



Robert, trust me, I'm not playing stupid. I have as much ego as anyone else in this business. I opened my shop in 1978 and I've learned a few things since then. I can look at a schematic and know what a choke looks like and what an op-amp looks like. I can follow block diagrams. I learn what I can looking over the engineers shoulders but...we had an issue with the first DSP-Z8 sample. Distortion on the bottom 1/2 of the wave beyond a certain voltage. No chance in hell for me. Mike grabs the schematic and a probe and couple minutes later tells me the supply voltage in the mute circuit doesn't match the schematic...problem solved.
I want to be able to do that...and sell...and market...and train. Hmm, I may have a little control issue. 

John


----------



## robert_wrath

*Weekly Bump! Say it again - Zapco DSP-Z8*


----------



## 3fish

nutxo said:


> So whats the deal? Which chinese build house is making these now?


Who gives rats a$$. Stupid freaking comment. Foxconn makes iPhone here in Guangzhou where I live.


----------



## TommyDS

Will be all new products also available in Europe??? If yes, when and where? Is Michael "Big Oki" Muller still a Zapco dealer in Europe?


----------



## robert_wrath




----------



## robert_wrath

ACJohn, the site's lookin a hellava lot better! Keep the ball rollin.
Zapco - The Driving Force


----------



## Sonus

x2 what he said ^^


----------



## Sonus

Sonus said:


> John, have you got anymore info on when the ST-xD-series and the DSP-Z8 will start shipping?


Any news? Especially the ST-4D


----------



## ACJohn

*Re: Zapco - new product ...and a 4 wheel oportunity*

First. I don't know where to put this but Robert Petty's daughter is getting her license. So the IASCA Modified winner (Acura TL) is for sale with the system. It's his extra car but its a hot rod and he's scared to have her driving it, and the insurance company said "no way in hell". So the car's for sale. $10,000 for the stereo and you get the rocket for free. Steve Cook or Robert can tell you more about the system. If anybody wants to play in the lanes or just wants a world class system, you may as well start with a winner. 
Personally, I'd hate to see it go away 'cause it always wins. In fact I'll help keep it in the lanes, if somebody with good credentials picks it up and wants to upgrade to new model amps for competition, I'll help Steve Cook make you one hell of a deal on amps. Robert: 205.219.8264 Steve: 256.366.2908

Regarding the DC and ST-D: The Z and ZX production is finished and the DC and ST are being built right now. The Z and ZX should be shipping (to dealers) before the end of the month. The DC and ST about 45 days. The ST-X will be a little later.

Regarding the site: We're working on it. I know we still need to clean the look up some but we are on it.



John


----------



## robert_wrath

Thanx for the updates ACJohn.


----------



## TommyDS

Dear ACJohn, and what about the european distribution of new products?



TommyDS said:


> Will be all new products also available in Europe??? If yes, when and where? Is Michael "Big Oki" Muller still a Zapco dealer in Europe?


----------



## ACJohn

TommyDS said:


> Dear ACJohn, and what about the european distribution of new products?


I still have work to do there.
SOLFILM & BILSTEREO / HIFI-CARFI in Denmark is expanding to distribution in several countries. They have Zapco now in Denmark. He is expanding with a new distribution model. [email protected].com Also Michael Muller will certainly still do distribution in Germany. [email protected]

I do not know about specific distributors in other countries yet, I am speaking with someone in Russia but we must see what happens there.

John


----------



## KP

*Re: Zapco - new product ...and a 4 wheel oportunity*



ACJohn said:


> First. I don't know where to put this but Robert Petty's daughter is getting her license. So the IASCA Modified winner (Acura TL) is for sale with the system. It's his extra car but its a hot rod and he's scared to have her driving it, and the insurance company said "no way in hell". So the car's for sale. $10,000 for the stereo and you get the rocket for free. Steve Cook or Robert can tell you more about the system. If anybody wants to play in the lanes or just wants a world class system, you may as well start with a winner.
> Personally, I'd hate to see it go away 'cause it always wins. In fact I'll help keep it in the lanes, if somebody with good credentials picks it up and wants to upgrade to new model amps for competition, I'll help Steve Cook make you one hell of a deal on amps. Robert: 205.219.8264 Steve: 256.366.2908
> 
> Regarding the DC and ST-D: The Z and ZX production is finished and the DC and ST are being built right now. The Z and ZX should be shipping (to dealers) before the end of the month. The DC and ST about 45 days. The ST-X will be a little later.
> 
> Regarding the site: We're working on it. I know we still need to clean the look up some but we are on it.
> 
> 
> 
> John


Robert's car is a CL, manual. Very nice car, well taken care of its entire life.

Trying to re-configure my car to hold the Z400.2's in the V6 style rack.


----------



## highspeed

robert_wrath said:


> *Weekly Bump! Say it again - Zapco DSP-Z8*


BUMP - I don't want to buy another brand but I will need a DSP unit for sure this summer. Any updates on availability?


----------



## TrickyRicky

Who owns Zapco and where are the new products made? Never mind, I read a few pages and found out the answer on post #64, thanks. But is it North or South Korea (pretty sure its South Korea- aren't they known just as Korea?)?


----------



## ChrisB

TrickyRicky said:


> Who owns Zapco and where are the new products made? Never mind, I read a few pages and found out the answer on post #64, thanks. But is it North or South Korea (pretty sure its South Korea- aren't they known just as Korea?)?


I highly doubt it is North Korea due to the embargo and sanctions against them. Then again, why does it matter where they they are made? As long as the product is built with strict quality control standards and is competitively priced, that is all I care about.

While I would like to see more Made in the USA products out there, the sad fact is that it just won't happen under the new FTC guidelines. Don't even get me started on some of the older individuals who give me hell about my Subaru and not buying American. The irony in this is that they are driving GM and Chrysler vehicles assembled in Canada with parts from all around the world. In other words, their American cars are American in name only.


----------



## rain27

North and South Korea are entirely different. You won't find anything made in North Korea.


----------



## ACJohn

TrickyRicky said:


> Who owns Zapco and where are the new products made? Never mind, I read a few pages and found out the answer on post #64, thanks. But is it North or South Korea (pretty sure its South Korea- aren't they known just as Korea?)?


I'm sorry, but I have to ask. Was that a serious question?

John


----------



## Matt R

Haha


----------



## BigRed

That picture looks familiar


----------



## TrickyRicky

ACJohn said:


> I'm sorry, but I have to ask. Was that a serious question?
> 
> John


Serious with the first part of the question, then I found the answer. Last sentence was really a joke, everyone knows North Korea is.....a world to themselves. Hell not even coca cola is allowed there, lol.



ChrisB said:


> I highly doubt it is North Korea due to the embargo and sanctions against them. Then again, why does it matter where they they are made? As long as the product is built with strict quality control standards and is competitively priced, that is all I care about.
> 
> While I would like to see more Made in the USA products out there, the sad fact is that it just won't happen under the new FTC guidelines. Don't even get me started on some of the older individuals who give me hell about my Subaru and not buying American. The irony in this is that they are driving GM and Chrysler vehicles assembled in Canada with parts from all around the world. In other words, their American cars are American in name only.


The thing is that China is the number one country that makes crappy/****ty products, that usually dont last and are replaceable (just go and buy a new one). There are so many examples so dont get me started, now take Japan products for an example. They make quality stuff and pretty much dont know the word "warranty", their **** lasts years and years even decades.

I hope that makes sense for everyone.


----------



## 12v Electronics

TrickyRicky said:


> I hope that makes sense for everyone.


----------



## ACJohn

TrickyRicky said:


> Serious with the first part of the question, then I found the answer. Last sentence was really a joke, everyone knows North Korea is.....a world to themselves. Hell not even coca cola is allowed there, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is that China is the number one country that makes crappy/****ty products, that usually dont last and are replaceable (just go and buy a new one). There are so many examples so dont get me started, now take Japan products for an example. They make quality stuff and pretty much dont know the word "warranty", their **** lasts years and years even decades.
> 
> I hope that makes sense for everyone.


OK, I don't want to take this thread off in another direction but I really think we need to stop blaming China for our own greed. As it happens Zapco's Z, ZX, DC, and ST-D series of amps are made in Korea. That is because we found a build house that could do exactly what we wanted done. We were very pleased with other products they had made, and QC is superb. If this factory had been in China, we would still have them building the products.

Is Arc Audio crappy/****ty? How about Diamond, Memphis. The Zapco i-Force line was made in China and it was damn good sounding product. Do you think all the Alpine stuff is from Japan? Seriously? Stop blaming the Chinese! Blame the guys right here here at home who want to be able to sell you a thousand watt amp $80.00 retail. That $80.00 amp isn't a piece of crap because it was made in China. It's a piece of crap because that's all $80.00 will buy you ... even if it's made in China.

So don't worry about where it's made, worry about how it performs and stop buying crap ... even if it's made here. If we stop buying from companies that sell us crap, we will get better offerings.


----------



## TrickyRicky

Before buying any electronic product, I do a little research. I would like to know what type of components it uses. If it has the best in the world output transistors (Sanken in many people's opinion) then use the cheapest crappiest capacitors...do you actually think I will buy it?? While I may be able to replace/switch out those caps, its not a good sign...atleast not to me.

No doubt China can make some good quality stuff but its really rare. I've seen a bunch of Korea made products and I was happy with performance and realiability (JBL BP1200.1 is still my fav sub amp). Then I got this little Alpine 3513 (also made in Korea), it has decent transistors but then it uses cheap caps, but it still has a couple of them that are "ELNA" caps (which I consider pretty good). 

Am just concerned as who actually owns ZAPCO, as we all use to know, it was an american company.


----------



## 3fish

TrickyRicky said:


> The thing is that China is the number one country that makes crappy/****ty products, that usually dont last and are replaceable (just go and buy a new one). There are so many examples so dont get me started, now take Japan products for an example. They make quality stuff and pretty much dont know the word "warranty", their **** lasts years and years even decades.
> 
> I hope that makes sense for everyone.


There are lots of great products made here in China. Gotta spend the time to find the good ones though  The Chinese, I might add, are adapting very,very quickly.

With regards to electronics, if the QC, supply chain, design specs, and production engineers are strong, marvelous quality can be had here for those that have in-house design and seek low cost manufacturing.


----------



## Richv72

3fish said:


> There are lots of great products made here in China. Gotta spend the time to find the good ones though  The Chinese, I might add, are adapting very,very quickly.
> 
> With regards to electronics, if the QC, supply chain, design specs, and production engineers are strong, marvelous quality can be had here for those that have in-house design and seek low cost manufacturing.


Companys dont move their product manufacturing to china for great quality. They move them there for cheap labor, lax labor and environmental regulations, and getting around paying benefits to employees.


----------



## cyberdraven

Hi John, ive been very eager to ask you this question.

What's the reason for the unusual "loud buzz" on the 1st Gen Zapco DC amps? Has this been addressed in the new ones?

Ive been using zapco DC for almost 2 years and still very happy with it. However, there is this recurring incident of "loud buzz" during boot. This happens very seldom but still quite scarry. If your not in the look out, it will easily blow your tweets!

There was this thread citing theories about it and one of the most convincing is that the "loud buzz" is like a "blue screen" scenario on a computer and all you need to do is turn-off the engine and reboot again. Some suggested that you need to turn-off the radio before switching off the ignition to prevent such. Ive been doing that but still it happens.

Thanks!


----------



## tnbubba

made in Korea .. balanced inputs at the amp side.. hmm sounds like soundstream ref. and a few others..


----------



## ACJohn

cyberdraven said:


> Hi John, ive been very eager to ask you this question.
> 
> What's the reason for the unusual "loud buzz" on the 1st Gen Zapco DC amps? Has this been addressed in the new ones?
> 
> Ive been using zapco DC for almost 2 years and still very happy with it. However, there is this recurring incident of "loud buzz" during boot. This happens very seldom but still quite scarry. If your not in the look out, it will easily blow your tweets!
> 
> There was this thread citing theories about it and one of the most convincing is that the "loud buzz" is like a "blue screen" scenario on a computer and all you need to do is turn-off the engine and reboot again. Some suggested that you need to turn-off the radio before switching off the ignition to prevent such. Ive been doing that but still it happens.
> 
> Thanks!


Yes we have found it. It's rare considering the number of amps out there so it took a while to find. We had one do it on the bench and were able to see the pattern. We can not see to the set of things that happen to create it. It is buried deep in the digi-world, but we were able to see the tell that lets us know when its going to happen. Mike built a small circuit that can attach and sense a coming problem and force a re-start.You'll never see it work because it all happens automatically. Your boot up just takes about a second longer than normal because of the restart. The circuit reads the clip light though so if you like to over drive the inputs you'll get a lot of restarts.

Drop me a note at [email protected]. It's hard to send it in from there but if you have a good tech close we may be able to send a circuit and directions.
Anyone in the states that has this issue, just drop me a line and we'll get you an RA so you can send it in for the mod.

John


----------



## ACJohn

tnbubba said:


> made in Korea .. balanced inputs at the amp side.. hmm sounds like soundstream ref. and a few others..


Really? That's quite a jump there jump from balanced input to soundstream

Made in the US? Fuel injected? Hmm sounds like Chevy and a few others


----------



## maztah

Hi John, can you sell to me the new Z series a bit more?  I know the story and the specs which are not out of the ordinary. What makes it worth upgrading from DC ref or C2K?


----------



## tnbubba

no lots of other put the balaned line inputs in the amps from Rca inputs..
and lots of tohter have made quality produts in korea..

not knocking it but ... gettng away form full balanced line drivers is..well uhh crappy on zapcos.. part..I think
btw I own both SS and Zaps and have a combination in my truck now.. so .. just my $2c..gonna miss the c2k// man they could be modded very easy and really tweaked sweet.


----------



## ACJohn

maztah said:


> Hi John, can you sell to me the new Z series a bit more?  I know the story and the specs which are not out of the ordinary. What makes it worth upgrading from DC ref or C2K?


The layout of the components and the choices of internal parts, were made with the intent of making the best sounding amps we've ever offered.
Compared to the C2K the Z simply has better sounding parts in the signal path. What makes it worth upgrading to the Z or ZX is the sound. 

And they look amazing. 

John


----------



## Matt R

John is not kidding. These are the best sounding amps Zapco has ever produced imo!!! They are absolutely beautiful too.

The board layout is way better than the c2k for modifying. The signal path is more direct than the Ref or c2k. Better output devices and opamps, this amp is doing it for me!!!!

Matt


----------



## cyberdraven

ACJohn said:


> Yes we have found it. It's rare considering the number of amps out there so it took a while to find. We had one do it on the bench and were able to see the pattern. We can not see to the set of things that happen to create it. It is buried deep in the digi-world, but we were able to see the tell that lets us know when its going to happen. Mike built a small circuit that can attach and sense a coming problem and force a re-start.You'll never see it work because it all happens automatically. Your boot up just takes about a second longer than normal because of the restart. The circuit reads the clip light though so if you like to over drive the inputs you'll get a lot of restarts.
> 
> Drop me a note at [email protected]. It's hard to send it in from there but if you have a good tech close we may be able to send a circuit and directions.
> Anyone in the states that has this issue, just drop me a line and we'll get you an RA so you can send it in for the mod.
> 
> John



Thanks john, mail sent!

Another question though about the DC Ref tuning capability. I read from the zapco forum (?), that the 10 band/channel EQ will become 20 band/channel EQ once you use it in bridged mode. Is this true?

Also, each channel has its independent TA, and if your in bridged mode, you could change the phase by adjusting the TA of only one channel. Is my theory right?

Sorry as I dont have the right tools to confirm these theorem.

Thanks

Paeng


----------



## ACJohn

Matt R said:


> John is not kidding. These are the best sounding amps Zapco has ever produced imo!!! They are absolutely beautiful too.
> 
> The board layout is way better than the c2k for modifying. The signal path is more direct than the Ref or c2k. Better output devices and opamps, this amp is doing it for me!!!!
> 
> Matt


Well, thank you Matt! That certainly makes the long days worthwhile.  

And on that nice note, an update...
>The Z and ZX should be shipping within about a week.
>The ST-D will be the end of July
> Unfortunately, the new DC we won't see till early to mid August. We had to make a couple of adjustments. The phase is going to 15 degree steps. Also, we found a glitch in testing. After having to fix the entire 1st run of the original DC, I'm doing my damnedest to be the first to have a digital product that's 100% right out of the gate.

John


----------



## highspeed

ACJohn said:


> Well, thank you Matt! That certainly makes the long days worthwhile.
> 
> And on that nice note, an update...
> >The Z and ZX should be shipping within about a week.
> >The ST-D will be the end of July
> > Unfortunately, the new DC we won't see till early to mid August. We had to make a couple of adjustments. The phase is going to 15 degree steps. Also, we found a glitch in testing. After having to fix the entire 1st run of the original DC, I'm doing my damnedest to be the first to have a digital product that's 100% right out of the gate.
> 
> John


Thanks for the update John. Do you have any news on the DSP-Z8?


----------



## robert_wrath

*Weekly Bump! Say it again - Zapco DSP-Z8*


----------



## kustomkaraudio

Hey John, this might be a silly question, but can you touch on some of the differences between Z and ZX ?


----------



## ACJohn

kustomkaraudio said:


> Hey John, this might be a silly question, but can you touch on some of the differences between Z and ZX ?


Same amp design and same circuitry (at least in the A/B amps).

There are only two things that differentiate the ZX:
1) Power - 2 ZX A/B amps are higher power and the 3 D's are just crazy power.

2) High Current - The 2 ZX A/B amps are 1-ohm stable so if you drop the impedance, either one will put out 2,000 watts RMS. Hmm...I guess you could say that's really just power again.

John


----------



## ACJohn

cyberdraven said:


> Thanks john, mail sent!
> 
> Another question though about the DC Ref tuning capability. I read from the zapco forum (?), that the 10 band/channel EQ will become 20 band/channel EQ once you use it in bridged mode. Is this true?
> 
> Also, each channel has its independent TA, and if your in bridged mode, you could change the phase by adjusting the TA of only one channel. Is my theory right?
> 
> Sorry as I don't have the right tools to confirm these theorem.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Paeng


I never thought to do that. I will think about it some more but if I understand what you're saying, I would think that would be a disaster.

Your talking about bridging two channels of a stereo amp so one will be the top (+) wave and one will be the bottom (-) wave. So if you manipulate one channel with the EQ (or any other processing) but not the other you're changing the volume of 1/2 the wave at that frequency. You're changing the shape of the sound wave. Now if you do something different to the bottom of the wave it can't do anything but get worse. I've never tried it , but I don't see how it can be anything but bad.

I would use all functions by channel pair if you bridge the amp.

John


----------



## ChrisB

robert_wrath said:


> *Weekly Bump! Say it again - Zapco DSP-Z8*


X2... Nothing like being teased with a product that you can't buy.


----------



## DeanE10

John - do you happen to have an RTS (Release To Sales) for the DSP-Z8? I know you mentioned it before but I just wanted to check again


----------



## cyberdraven

John, what for is the "damping factor" setting of the dc ref amp? What is the zapco recommended setting for it? 6db?


----------



## ACJohn

cyberdraven said:


> John, what for is the "damping factor" setting of the dc ref amp? What is the zapco recommended setting for it? 6db?


Hmm; Maybe a language issue? Damping is a relationship between the internal resistance and the load resistance and is fixed at any given load. There is no adjustment.
If you're looking at the DC screen, I think you're looking at something other than damping.

John


----------



## cyberdraven

ACJohn said:


> Hmm; Maybe a language issue? Damping is a relationship between the internal resistance and the load resistance and is fixed at any given load. There is no adjustment.
> If you're looking at the DC screen, I think you're looking at something other than damping.
> 
> John



yeah right! i got things mixed up. hehe. Im referring to the "HEADROOM" settings on the DC Ref amps. Its located under the "options" button if im not mistaken. Factory setting is at 6db but some locals in the board suggest to make it 12db or even 24db.

What is the essense of the setting as frankly, i couldnt find any difference in SQ, except for the fact that volume goes down as you increase "headroom" settings.

Thanks

Paeng


----------



## maztah

hi Paeng,

I think the answer is here in wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headroom_(audio_signal_processing)

seems to be a valid info thats why for speakers it is default 6db




cyberdraven said:


> yeah right! i got things mixed up. hehe. Im referring to the "HEADROOM" settings on the DC Ref amps. Its located under the "options" button if im not mistaken. Factory setting is at 6db but some locals in the board suggest to make it 12db or even 24db.
> 
> What is the essense of the setting as frankly, i couldnt find any difference in SQ, except for the fact that volume goes down as you increase "headroom" settings.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Paeng


----------



## tnbubba

better op amps?? still 5532 aND OPA 2134...( cheap)

**** I rip out the whole input board n put in my own,.,,
wont say what op amps I use but class A biased.. 

the rest of the amp and bipolar outputs good..cpet you still cant rid of the nasty bipolar clipping..

why cant somebody just build a freakin ampo?? with out all the BS esp with dsp and active heads unit becoming more availble..

damg oh if orgot we did that in the 70's 80's HU - x/o - amp.

not impressed but still better than most crap out..
just tired of the marketing hype.


----------



## Matt R

tnbubba said:


> better op amps?? still 5532 aND OPA 2134...( cheap)
> 
> **** I rip out the whole input board n put in my own,.,,
> wont say what op amps I use but class A biased..
> 
> the rest of the amp and bipolar outputs good..cpet you still cant rid of the nasty bipolar clipping..
> 
> why cant somebody just build a freakin ampo?? with out all the BS esp with dsp and active heads unit becoming more availble..
> 
> damg oh if orgot we did that in the 70's 80's HU - x/o - amp.
> 
> not impressed but still better than most crap out..
> just tired of the marketing hype.


Why wont you say what opamps you use or like? This is a diy site, I mention all the time what opamps I like. Maybe you can share your experience instead of critisize.

IMO there are several improvements with these amps over the Ref and C2K. The new look is awesome, very elegant too.


----------



## Sonus

DSP-Z8 is mrsp $549.95 on the Zapco website now. Quite a jump from $429

Any authorized dealers on here willing to ship internationally?


----------



## tnbubba

I promised Jim I would not divulge certain things he discovered
same reason I repair or mod a console we take markings off chips!
but when I design a circuit board from scratch... hobby or not I'm not giving it away for free. I will say they are not cheap and not what you would consider audio chips.. maybe something like data acquisition or video. stuff that certainly wont work on the stock input board. I still don't like the fact they killed the balanced inputs. Ive tested maybe a dozen HU over the past year from alpine kenwood clarion pioneer.. none are close to the 5v they claim to put out. most are about 1 -1.5 v max.. that is too low IMO for using single ended long runs in a car. Heck my old concord decks put out like 2.5V..
I mean even the new deh80prs only tested at 1.2 v


----------



## optimaprime

wish they made big 5 or 6 channel sum thing at least 500 watts or more in sub.


----------



## rcurley55

Sonus said:


> DSP-Z8 is mrsp $549.95 on the Zapco website now. Quite a jump from $429
> 
> Any authorized dealers on here willing to ship internationally?


MAP and MSRP are two different things.


----------



## highspeed

Sonus said:


> DSP-Z8 is mrsp $549.95 on the Zapco website now. Quite a jump from $429
> 
> Any authorized dealers on here willing to ship internationally?


I can't be the only one who would gladly pay $550 for a great sounding 8ch. DSP like this one...


----------



## Matt R

tnbubba said:


> I promised Jim I would not divulge certain things he discovered
> same reason I repair or mod a console we take markings off chips!
> but when I design a circuit board from scratch... hobby or not I'm not giving it away for free. I will say they are not cheap and not what you would consider audio chips.. maybe something like data acquisition or video. stuff that certainly wont work on the stock input board. I still don't like the fact they killed the balanced inputs. Ive tested maybe a dozen HU over the past year from alpine kenwood clarion pioneer.. none are close to the 5v they claim to put out. most are about 1 -1.5 v max.. that is too low IMO for using single ended long runs in a car. Heck my old concord decks put out like 2.5V..
> I mean even the new deh80prs only tested at 1.2 v


I would guess your testing method is to blame. Maybe you need to use a 0db signal instead of a -14db signal. I have also tested many HU's and any half way decent HU has at least 4 volts out.


----------



## HiloDB1

:snacks::lurk:


----------



## MrMoto

So the new Z150.6 using RCAs is going to sound better than 3 of my DC750.2 amps and for 1/3 of the price taking up only the space of 1 amp? 

I don't use the DSP in the amps anymore since I am always tweaking and it is too difficult using a laptop wile driving. I use the HU for all my processing and it works great for me. 

I find it hard to believe that these new amps are that much smaller, better sounding, and cheaper price. Not sure if I missed it but has anyone tried one of these amps yet? Feels too good to be true. Dealers and Zapco has burned in my head the Symbilink is the only way to go and since the first Z400 I have used it with great success. Now I am suppose to throw it away and go back. 

A C2K 6.0 that cost almost $2000 is not as good as the Z150.2 at $500? ACJohn how do you explain to the C2K owners that they over paid and their amps are worthless because if the Z series is really better. I would be crazy to spend that kind of money for the C2K amps. 

I would love to get my hands on one just to test how it sounds. It is going to take some good reviews and a lot of conviencing to get me to believe these are better. I have always been a Zapco fan and hope these amps are everything and more. My dealer dropped Zapco when he could not get product anymore and he was 2 hours away from me. How is Zapco going to convience those dealer to pick up the line again? Where am I going to get a chance to listen to the new line?

Why keep the DC line with the HU's on the market today and the DSP8? Why not at lease keep the Symbilink side by side with the RCAs? I feel sorry for the guy who upgraded to Symbilink with new Zapco amps who now has to toss out Symbilink for new Zapco amps.

ACJohn, dont take this the wrong way. I have had the pleasure of owning so many Zapco amps since the early 90's with no complaint. I just don't understand the direction and how you acheived a better product for so much less. I would have understood a new technology but going backwards and abandoning Symbilink. Did it really cost so much less having cheap labor build the amps? That is not a jab at Zapco but our ecomomy and government as a whole. The consumer has driving this direction in Mfging but that is a whole different topic.

Give me some real tests and reviews. Have some side by side compairision from a third party compairing Zapco new to Zapco old and to the competition. I am really interested in the amplifing capibality of amps not the bells and whistles. Bottom line is are they better both sonic ablity and realiblity?


----------



## ACJohn

tnbubba said:


> better op amps?? still 5532 aND OPA 2134...( cheap)
> 
> **** I rip out the whole input board n put in my own,.,,
> wont say what op amps I use but class A biased..
> 
> the rest of the amp and bipolar outputs good..cpet you still cant rid of the nasty bipolar clipping..
> 
> why cant somebody just build a freakin ampo?? with out all the BS esp with dsp and active heads unit becoming more availble..
> 
> damg oh if orgot we did that in the 70's 80's HU - x/o - amp.
> 
> not impressed but still better than most crap out..
> just tired of the marketing hype.



I was asked to come back to Zapco to develop the new amp line and put the company back into growth mode. My goal with the new amps was to build a better sounding amp the we would be able to sell at a better price so the company could actually grow. I believe I have succeeded. Those who have heard them have agreed.

Why am I not building your amp? Simple: No body outside of a few guys on the forums would buy it and we would be out of business.

Why can't we build a straight amp? We did. Unfortunately people stopped buying them. Trust me dude, I would damn sure rather sell you a $500.00 amp and $200.00 crossover than sell you a $510.00 amp with a crossover built in. Unfortunately, the market says I can't. 

I'm trying to build up a company and I have to sell amps to do that. Consumers will not buy amps without crossovers, and no dealer would be willing to spend the time needed to try get them to.

Marketing Hype? Nonsense! I believe I did what I set out to do. You're not impressed? You haven't heard it! After you've heard it, if you're not impressed then please do go buy something that does impress you...If such an animal exists.

I'm not saying that to snotty. You guys need to understand that I have to operate under the constraints of the market.

John


----------



## thehatedguy

This is John Borgis? And sorry if I didn't get the spelling of the last name correct.


----------



## narvarr

ACJohn said:


> I was asked to come back to Zapco to develop the new amp line and put the company back into growth mode. My goal with the new amps was to build a better sounding amp the we would be able to sell at a better price so the company could actually grow. I believe I have succeeded. Those who have heard them have agreed.
> 
> Why am I not building your amp? Simple: No body outside of a few guys on the forums would buy it and we would be out of business.
> 
> Why can't we build a straight amp? We did. Unfortunately people stopped buying them. Trust me dude, I would damn sure rather sell you a $500.00 amp and $200.00 crossover than sell you a $510.00 amp with a crossover built in. Unfortunately, the market says I can't.
> 
> I'm trying to build up a company and I have to sell amps to do that. Consumers will not buy amps without crossovers, and no dealer would be willing to spend the time needed to try get them to.
> 
> Marketing Hype? Nonsense! I believe I did what I set out to do. You're not impressed? You haven't heard it! After you've heard it, if you're not impressed then please do go buy something that does impress you...If such an animal exists.
> 
> I'm not saying that to snotty. You guys need to understand that I have to operate under the constraints of the market.
> 
> John


Ok. At this point I'm sold. John, this statement says a lot and if you can point me to an authorized dealer in the Dallas area, I will forgo installing my 2 BNIB JL XD amps in favor of the Zapco's. I have always respected Zapco as a company and the quality products they stood for up until the iForce line. I really liked the fact that they supported people who complete with their products. The more affordable DSP-z8 was already on my list of future equipment, but your willingness to put yourself "out there" just earned Zapco a new customer.

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


----------



## ACJohn

MrMoto said:


> So the new Z150.6 using RCAs is going to sound better than 3 of my DC750.2 amps and for 1/3 of the price taking up only the space of 1 amp?
> 
> I don't use the DSP in the amps anymore since I am always tweaking and it is too difficult using a laptop wile driving. I use the HU for all my processing and it works great for me.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that these new amps are that much smaller, better sounding, and cheaper price. Not sure if I missed it but has anyone tried one of these amps yet? Feels too good to be true. Dealers and Zapco has burned in my head the Symbilink is the only way to go and since the first Z400 I have used it with great success. Now I am suppose to throw it away and go back.
> 
> A C2K 6.0 that cost almost $2000 is not as good as the Z150.2 at $500? ACJohn how do you explain to the C2K owners that they over paid and their amps are worthless because if the Z series is really better. I would be crazy to spend that kind of money for the C2K amps.
> 
> I would love to get my hands on one just to test how it sounds. It is going to take some good reviews and a lot of conviencing to get me to believe these are better. I have always been a Zapco fan and hope these amps are everything and more. My dealer dropped Zapco when he could not get product anymore and he was 2 hours away from me. How is Zapco going to convience those dealer to pick up the line again? Where am I going to get a chance to listen to the new line?
> 
> Why keep the DC line with the HU's on the market today and the DSP8? Why not at lease keep the Symbilink side by side with the RCAs? I feel sorry for the guy who upgraded to Symbilink with new Zapco amps who now has to toss out Symbilink for new Zapco amps.
> 
> ACJohn, dont take this the wrong way. I have had the pleasure of owning so many Zapco amps since the early 90's with no complaint. I just don't understand the direction and how you acheived a better product for so much less. I would have understood a new technology but going backwards and abandoning Symbilink. Did it really cost so much less having cheap labor build the amps? That is not a jab at Zapco but our ecomomy and government as a whole. The consumer has driving this direction in Mfging but that is a whole different topic.
> 
> Give me some real tests and reviews. Have some side by side compairision from a third party compairing Zapco new to Zapco old and to the competition. I am really interested in the amplifing capibality of amps not the bells and whistles. Bottom line is are they better both sonic ablity and realiblity?


A lot of stuff here.
> Z-150 v DC750.2 Not considering all the processing in the DC750, probably not if you're driving them hard. Hard driving, near clipping, 3 x 750s give you three power supplies. Better to compare 3 x Z-150.2. The Ref 750 was my favorite of the old amps but yes, from mid-bass to highs I'd rather listen to a Z-150. For subs the 750 has a stronger supply. For short bursts the Z-150 will be good to a little over 500 watts while the 750 will do over 800watts. However for less then the price of a Ref 750, you can get a Z-400.2 with 400 x 2 and 1400 x 1.

> C2K 6.0 Vs Z-150 These are different animals. The answer though is similar to the 750. First; the 750 is a 6.0 with a few fewer parts and a smaller power supply. The difference is that the C2K has a high current power supply will just not give up. If you give it enough current it will easily get you over 1600 watts at 2-ohm mono. The first prototypes were doing 2000 watts on 260 amps. Mark took some winds off the transformer before production to throttle it down. But; again I think the Z-150 is a better _sounding_ amp...until you push to the limit where the C2K power supply gives you more headroom. But...if you need to do that then you can step up to more power.

Have to come back to this. I'll hit the other points later.

John


----------



## ACJohn

MrMoto said:


> So the new Z150.6 using RCAs is going to sound better than 3 of my DC750.2 amps and for 1/3 of the price taking up only the space of 1 amp?
> 
> I don't use the DSP in the amps anymore since I am always tweaking and it is too difficult using a laptop wile driving. I use the HU for all my processing and it works great for me.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that these new amps are that much smaller, better sounding, and cheaper price. Not sure if I missed it but has anyone tried one of these amps yet? Feels too good to be true. Dealers and Zapco has burned in my head the Symbilink is the only way to go and since the first Z400 I have used it with great success. Now I am suppose to throw it away and go back.
> 
> A C2K 6.0 that cost almost $2000 is not as good as the Z150.2 at $500? ACJohn how do you explain to the C2K owners that they over paid and their amps are worthless because if the Z series is really better. I would be crazy to spend that kind of money for the C2K amps.
> 
> I would love to get my hands on one just to test how it sounds. It is going to take some good reviews and a lot of conviencing to get me to believe these are better. I have always been a Zapco fan and hope these amps are everything and more. My dealer dropped Zapco when he could not get product anymore and he was 2 hours away from me. How is Zapco going to convience those dealer to pick up the line again? Where am I going to get a chance to listen to the new line?
> 
> Why keep the DC line with the HU's on the market today and the DSP8? Why not at lease keep the Symbilink side by side with the RCAs? I feel sorry for the guy who upgraded to Symbilink with new Zapco amps who now has to toss out Symbilink for new Zapco amps.
> 
> ACJohn, dont take this the wrong way. I have had the pleasure of owning so many Zapco amps since the early 90's with no complaint. I just don't understand the direction and how you acheived a better product for so much less. I would have understood a new technology but going backwards and abandoning Symbilink. Did it really cost so much less having cheap labor build the amps? That is not a jab at Zapco but our ecomomy and government as a whole. The consumer has driving this direction in Mfging but that is a whole different topic.
> 
> Give me some real tests and reviews. Have some side by side compairision from a third party compairing Zapco new to Zapco old and to the competition. I am really interested in the amplifing capibality of amps not the bells and whistles. Bottom line is are they better both sonic ablity and realiblity?



The other items here:

> Way better? I'm not saying that. The differences at this stage are subtle. I am only saying we were able to improve the sound with the right choice
of parts and a different layout. Do I call the new line a way better value? Absolutely! But that doesn't mean you paid too much for the older models. I just found a better way to do it. That's what progress is. And I will make these better too, as time goes on. Again...progress.

> The DC line: At the high-end there are some head units that have enough processing power to do everything. But most head units don't, and if you ask them to do X-O, EQ, and delay at the same time you run into problems. Most factory units also need a lot of processing and the new DCs have speaker-level in and summing. The DC is a great solution for a lot people, and especially for dealers. One piece does it all. Quick install and once you get a car down you save it to a file and you can pump them out all day long. A one piece solution.

> Dealers? I have to convince them that I have a better solution than what they are using now. That's what my job has always been and I've been fortunate in that I've always had the better solution.

> Reliability? Yes, I think so. Everything there says it should be just a reliable as C2K or Reference. The DC should be better than the first series. We made a couple of hardware changes and the program is much more stable. We paid a price for being the first, but we learned a few things as well.

John


----------



## robert_wrath

ACJohn, thanx for the product updates & defending Zapco's pride.
Are there any release (street) dates for the desired DSP-Z8 availability?


----------



## Matt R

thehatedguy said:


> This is John Borgis? And sorry if I didn't get the spelling of the last name correct.


Yep, back making it happen!


----------



## thehatedguy

It dawned on me...AC= Audio Control, which is where John was at before now.

John is one of the old school good guys.


----------



## tnbubba

matt I do us a 0 dbfs signal

the new pinoeer deh80-prs 1.22V out.. wide open... at least it doesnt clip in a 1 K load like the alpines do...that's on both my teltronix 2225 calibrated my fluke DMM calibrated and my spectrum analyzer all same voltage to 0.xx places.. sure i can get like 3.8 V out but i got to tweak the fudge out of all the esq's gains and etc to get it.. hell theo only units were the old pioneer the older alipines.. and clarion drz.. **** even my 1.5D(forgot model #)10 yr old alpine put out 3 V clean ( btw i test at 12.6V with a 1000# battery forklift battery rack that will run over a 600A )


----------



## Dillyyo

All I can say is I have been waiting a few years for the DSP-8 to come out and for Zapco to drop the ball and blow the biggest nut all over it's historical buyers by not implementing at least some integration ability with Symbilink cables is down right mind boggling. Ultimately who gives a rats ass where the amp or processor is made as long as it's up to high quality standards for the money and the move Zapco has made here tells me they no longer look to appease the crowd they have for the last 3 decades.


----------



## Dillyyo

MrMoto said:


> So the new Z150.6 using RCAs is going to sound better than 3 of my DC750.2 amps and for 1/3 of the price taking up only the space of 1 amp?
> 
> I don't use the DSP in the amps anymore since I am always tweaking and it is too difficult using a laptop wile driving. I use the HU for all my processing and it works great for me.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that these new amps are that much smaller, better sounding, and cheaper price. Not sure if I missed it but has anyone tried one of these amps yet? Feels too good to be true. Dealers and Zapco has burned in my head the Symbilink is the only way to go and since the first Z400 I have used it with great success. Now I am suppose to throw it away and go back.
> 
> A C2K 6.0 that cost almost $2000 is not as good as the Z150.2 at $500? ACJohn how do you explain to the C2K owners that they over paid and their amps are worthless because if the Z series is really better. I would be crazy to spend that kind of money for the C2K amps.
> 
> I would love to get my hands on one just to test how it sounds. It is going to take some good reviews and a lot of conviencing to get me to believe these are better. I have always been a Zapco fan and hope these amps are everything and more. My dealer dropped Zapco when he could not get product anymore and he was 2 hours away from me. How is Zapco going to convience those dealer to pick up the line again? Where am I going to get a chance to listen to the new line?
> 
> Why keep the DC line with the HU's on the market today and the DSP8?* Why not at lease keep the Symbilink side by side with the RCAs?* I feel sorry for the guy who upgraded to Symbilink with new Zapco amps who now has to toss out Symbilink for new Zapco amps.
> 
> ACJohn, dont take this the wrong way. I have had the pleasure of owning so many Zapco amps since the early 90's with no complaint. I just don't understand the direction and how you acheived a better product for so much less. I would have understood a new technology but going backwards and abandoning Symbilink. Did it really cost so much less having cheap labor build the amps? That is not a jab at Zapco but our ecomomy and government as a whole. The consumer has driving this direction in Mfging but that is a whole different topic.
> 
> Give me some real tests and reviews. Have some side by side compairision from a third party compairing Zapco new to Zapco old and to the competition. I am really interested in the amplifing capibality of amps not the bells and whistles. Bottom line is are they better both sonic ablity and realiblity?


I couldn't agree more with the bold in particular. I have been pretty faithful to Zapco amps for some time and I can't believe that I have to work around and use another DSP-6 just so I can get control of my subs in my setup. I understand the need to cut costs, but surely there could have been an "upgrade" option for the serious audio guy who has his system all Symbilink and wants to upgrade to Zapco's new products. 

Seriously sucks ballz!


----------



## Dillyyo

Matt R said:


> I would guess your testing method is to blame. Maybe you need to use a 0db signal instead of a -14db signal. I have also tested many HU's and any half way decent HU has at least 4 volts out.


Do they all have low output impedance? Not doubting you, but I remember when the Eclipse HUs were some the only ones running true 4-5V out, but their output impedance was like something like 60 ohms or some ****.


----------



## cyberdraven

John, been waiting for your mail for 2 weeks now. Can you share to us the cure for the "loud buzz" issue on the DC Ref?


----------



## Genxx

All you need to got from the new DSP8 to any of the symbilink amps is a RCA to Symbilink adapter or Several SLDIN-T.F if you want balanced. Not sure why people are saying there is no option to go symbilink from the new DSP8.

This is no different than what you do to run from a Headunit now to amps with symbilink.

IMO Symbilink and RCA in same case would make the Processor to large for what most people are wanting.

I have been running Zapco for about 10 years. I welcome the RCA's and if I feel the need for balanced I will do the above.


----------



## Dillyyo

Genxx said:


> All you need to got from the new DSP8 to any of the symbilink amps is a RCA to Symbilink adapter or Several SLDIN-T.F if you want balanced. Not sure why people are saying there is no option to go symbilink from the new DSP8.
> 
> This is no different than what you do to run from a Headunit now to amps with symbilink.
> 
> IMO Symbilink and RCA in same case would make the Processor to large for what most people are wanting.
> 
> I have been running Zapco for about 10 years. I welcome the RCA's and if I feel the need for balanced I will do the above.


My car is OEM balanced and I have a Symbilink cable spliced into it and feeding the DSP-6. I would have to convert to RCA and then convert again to Symbilink unless I wanted to go unbalanced throughout. Zapco was built on certain precedences they never use to compromise on and that has seemingly gone by the wayside. All I ask is they have an option for the hardcore guys who don't want to compromise with less. Not saying you need balanced, but it sure the hell makes bigger systems a hell of a lot easier in not having to deal with noise issues, especially is today's noisy azz cars. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Genxx

The DSP8 can do balanced input via rca so you can still run OEM balanced into the new DSP8. Then use the SLDIN-T.F to go balanced out of the DSP8 and stay balanced 99%. I have not had the chance to get my hands on a DSP8 but am waiting patiently like everyone else. Detailed info on it would be great. If you do balanced in will it do balanced out?

Every company goes through changes. IMO Zapco needed to change some things to stay in business. Only way to do that is become more competitive in the larger market. The new lines and yes RCA's will help them do that. If going to RCA's helps another what used to be or had become a niche company stay in business then more power to them.

I have no doubt John is not letting quality and producing a great sounding and reliable product change. I believe John is busting his ass at keeping Zapco's name associated with what it has always been known for right were it always has been. 

Guys let's give the new products a chance before we just assume they are not as great as the old stuff was.


----------



## Dillyyo

Genxx said:


> The DSP8 can do balanced input via rca so you can still run OEM balanced into the new DSP8. Then use the SLDIN-T.F to go balanced out of the DSP8 and stay balanced 99%. I have not had the chance to get my hands on a DSP8 but am waiting patiently like everyone else. Detailed info on it would be great. If you do balanced in will it do balanced out?
> 
> Every company goes through changes. IMO Zapco needed to change some things to stay in business. Only way to do that is become more competitive in the larger market. The new lines and yes RCA's will help them do that. If going to RCA's helps another what used to be or had become a niche company stay in business then more power to them.
> 
> I have no doubt John is not letting quality and producing a great sounding and reliable product change. I believe John is busting his ass at keeping Zapco's name associated with what it has always been known for right were it always has been.
> 
> Guys let's give the new products a chance before we just assume they are not as great as the old stuff was.


Been out of the game for awhile, but not sure how you can run true balanced out of an RCA.


----------



## Genxx

Me either but Eclipse some how magically did it with the BLA and JL does with differential balanced input via RCA. It states from Zapco that the DSP8---6 Channels balanced RCA inputs 
accepts from .5 Volt to 26 Volts.

John or someone else smarter on this than me is going to have to tell us how this works.

From my understanding of balanced it cannot be done through RCA's but yeah maybe someone can explain what Zapco means and how to implement it.


----------



## Dillyyo

Genxx said:


> Me either but Eclipse some how magically did it with the BLA and JL does with differential balanced input via RCA. It states from Zapco that the DSP8---6 Channels balanced RCA inputs
> accepts from .5 Volt to 26 Volts.
> 
> John or someone else smarter on this than me is going to have to tell us how this works.
> 
> From my understanding of balanced it cannot be done through RCA's but yeah maybe someone can explain what Zapco means and how to implement it.


I thought I remember some posts by CHAD who explained and clarified why they can't have true balanced from an RCA. I'll have to look and see if I can find it (i'm thinking only 2 conduits with RCAs??).


----------



## Genxx

My thoughts are the same as yours with the big debat Chad and others had a while back.


----------



## tnbubba

no way no how can you have balanced cables thru RCA you only have 2 conductors..
balanceduses 3 wires + - and gnd wire.. period.. google rane note 110 read thoroughly..
there is a reason pro guys use balanced connections and it not just for noise..
a lot of companies have a circuti they use use the is a " balanced circuit that use opamps to make a +- signal output but it still referenced to ground.. not a true impedance matched balanced transmission.. and while on the subject most FN balanced stuff is screwed up anyway.. true pro audio balanced is a matched 600ohms impedance input and output..


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## ACJohn

Dillyyo said:


> I thought I remember some posts by CHAD who explained and clarified why they can't have true balanced from an RCA. I'll have to look and see if I can find it (i'm thinking only 2 conduits with RCAs??).


Eclipse did it with 4 RCAs. Yes, you need 2 individual signal paths for a balanced transmission and a balanced input. Not three. Two. You need three paths for a _differentially balanced_ signal. That is because in a differentially balanced signal you are only using the signal positive to create a negative that you can power. In essence you feed a mirrored signal out with it as the negative half and you power both. Since the mirrored signal is the same size you have a 3dB gain. The other thing is that alternator noise riding on the two signals is now out of phase and canceled. Hence the noise reduction. You need three wires because you have now stopped the signal ground and there is no reference back to the signal source, and all kinds of bad things can happen. That's why the earlier Zapcos had that extra Sig.Ref. wire that had to go back to the head unit. That's also why Yamaha failed in their attempt to bring car amps out in 1980. They had a sig Ref wire, but the tech department said to connect this wire "if you have noise". Everybody thought it was a crappy amp when it was really just a lack of training. Zapco's manual said this wire* must* be connected or you will suffer the consequences...and you'd be surprised how many people...

Balanced: Any high power head unit or factory amp without an inverter power supply has a balanced output. That's how they get to be high power, and that's why you can't ground the speaker wires.

DC-series balanced inputs. The RCA shield does not go to ground. They are a balanced input so it is safe to plug a factory head or amp into the RCA inputs...up to 26 Volts

Pro gear Balanced: In a sense it is just for noise. It does not give you a "better" signal, it gives you a stronger signal, and when you're running a few hundred feet of cabling around a stage you need lots of signal. The *best* signal is still an RCA of 3' or less. A differential amp will always cause some degradation of the signal, but, you take the hit up front, get a 3dB boost and run a low impedance line out. Then you have less signal loss down the cable.

Bigger signal: Once we get the amps out and rolling, I'm working on line drivers and other processing. In the meantime, AudioControl makes a couple of dynamite little line drivers. And notice I said line Drivers, not conditioners. I'm sorry but you can not "condition" the line and get a better signal coming out that you had going in. A *perfect* amplifier would do *nothing* to the signal but make it bigger. A better signal coming out would require an amp better than perfect. Lets be honest, the best we can do is less damage than the next guy.


----------



## RBeachTL

Just finished reading through the 11 pages of the thread; wow what a tough crowd. 

ACJohn, I get the sense that you have probably had as much symbilink as you can stand so I'll only add a vote to the sentiment of having both the RCA and symbilink input options available. I have a '08 TL and I'm running a DC1000.4 for my midwoofs, a DC360.4 for my tweeters and center and a DC500.1 for my sub. I use three SLB-Us and I have never had any noise issues in my car. I've read about so many that have had noise problems with their installs that I can tell you I'm glad that I used symbilink and I'd like to be able to see a future for it. The TL uses a differential output from the HU and the symbilink was one of the reasons that I chose Zapco for my car.

Having said all that I recognize that I've also read many complaints about symbilink most of which you have mentioned. I also recognize that unless Zapco is a successful company none of this matters but if a design revision is in the future I hope that you would consider including both connector / signal interfaces.

Regarding the loud buzzing, I've had this happen once in the 2 1/2 years that I've had my system; do you suggest that I have the reset circuit added to my amps?

Thanks much,


----------



## narvarr

John, what is the current draw of the z-150.6?

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


----------



## tnbubba

google rane notes 110 and read this is how balanced and all audio connections should be done... short or not pos and negative signal wires totally separate form any ground reference..
the gnd wire is there to link chassis together for shifty designs to have a place to sink the noise shield too
not many people can put an amp 3' from the HU

you cant gnd spkr wire because one end of the PS is ref to gnd!! things go poof when you do that. 
best signal depends on amp design.. i know a few fully differential amps all the way thru,.. wont even work with rca connector..
anyway cars r too noisy IMO for single ended rca cables


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## tnbubba

THANKS TO MY BUDDY HUGH FIR OVER EXPLAINING THINGS AS USUAL SINCE IM A LAZY ASS 


To convey any signal voltage from one place to another we need two wires. In the unbalanced interface one wire carries the variable signal voltage and the second wire carries the reference voltage from which that varying signal voltage must be measured. This is normally zero volts -- audio ground.

For convenience, that audio ground reference wire is usually configured as an overall screen, because that brings the advantage of capturing radio frequency interference and grounding it where it can do no harm to the wanted audio signal.

However, if that interference manages to get through the screen, it generates a voltage relative to ground and appears on the signal wire in exactly the same form as the wanted signal. The interference and the wanted signal therefore combine to form a new composite signal and the interference can't be detected or extracted as a separate entity by the receiving amplifier stage. Once the interference gets in, you're stuck with it.

Moving forward again to the balanced interface, here we usually have three wires -- two for the signal, serving basically the exact same roles as for the unbalanced arrangement in so far as one (or both) carries the wanted signal voltage while the other (or both) acts as the voltage reference.

The third wire is entirely optional but if present is configured again as an overall screen. It takes no part in conveying the signal or any voltage reference. It is purely there to help protect against radio frequency interference, and in many cases is not used or required at all (patch bay cords being a common example where the screen is often omitted).

Now, should the unwanted interference break through the screen it will try to induce a voltage in both of the two signal wires, in the same way as it did in the unbalanced example. Here's the critical thing, though: if those two wires have exactly the same impedances to ground, the induced voltage will also be exactly the same on both wires. On the other hand, if they have different impedances to ground (ie, they have unbalanced impedances), the induced interference voltages will be different on the two signal wires -- and we are completely skuppered!

Whereas the signal receiving input stage in an unbalanced system simply detects the signal voltage (wanted signal plus interference) on the signal wire, as measured relative to the ground reference carried on the cable screen, the balanced input stage is much more cunning.

The balanced input stage is a 'differential' input, which means that it has two input ports and it is only interested in the voltage difference between those two ports. If both ports see exactly the same voltage there will be zero output. No difference, no output! However, if they carry different voltages the output will be the difference between them.

If you have +1V on one input and -1V on the other, you'll get a 2V output signal. Equally, if you have +2V on one input and 0V on the other, you'll still get a 2V output. But if you have +1V on both inputs, you'll get 0V at the output.

So... because we have a balanced interface in which the two signal wires have identical impedances to ground, any interference signal will produce the same voltage on each wire. This is called a 'common mode' signal and it will be completely ignored (rejected) by the differential input stage -- and hence any interference is removed from the wanted signal.

As I've mentioned, the wanted signal has to be conveyed in such a way that it produces a voltage difference between the two wires. One way -- the 'traditional way' is to send exactly the same signal voltage on each wire, but with opposite polarities. This 'equal and opposite' format is what you would normally see from an output balancing transformer, or from a dual active output stage.

Because each wire essentially acts as the reference voltage for the other, with this 'equal and opposite' signal format the differential input stage sees a signal which is twice the size of either signal individually -- and this gives rise to the often talked about 6dB level hike it produces when compared to connecting the balanced output to an unbalanced destination.

Alternatively, there is no reason at all why one wire shouldn't be held at zero volts (audio ground) while the other carries the entire signal voltage on its own, as I illustrated earlier.

The difference in voltage between the two wires in this case, as detected by the differential input stage, is still the wanted signal. And provided the 'cold' side exhibits the correct impedance to ground necessary to balance that of the driven 'hot' side, the interference rejecting capabilities of the system remain unaffected and identical to the conventional 'equal and opposite' arrangement.

This configuration is often refererd to as 'impedance balanced' to differentiate it from the 'equal and opposite format', and it is becoming increasingly popular with manufacturers for several reasons. Firstly, it can be configured so that the signal level remains the same whether the balanced output is connected to a balanced input or an unbalanced one.

Secondly, it exhibits 3dB less inherent noise than the dual active arrangement (because there is only one gain stage involved instead of two).

And thirdly it is cheaper to implement than the dual active arrangement (because it requires only half the components).

So to sum up, the advantage of the balanced interface is that the wanted signal can always be separated from the unwanted interference signal -- but the whole thing relies NOT on the fact that the two signal wires carry equal and opposite signal voltages (because they don't have to be formatted that way, as I have shown) BUT because the impedances to ground for each signal wire are identical or balanced.

The theory is based on the Wheatstone Bridge if you want to investigate further.

like is said it should be an impedance balanced differential circuit..an " balanced" 2 conductor circuit is just as susceptible to noise as a single ended circuit.


----------



## tnbubba

stolen from rane and others

ahoot how do i attach a pdf

Another consideration is that with unbalanced cables, they behave somewhat like a capacitor with respect to frequencies, and long runs of unbalanced cables can diminish high frequency response


----------



## robert_wrath

I'm not knockin' on anyone here but face it, ACJohn/Zapco is done with Symbilink. If you're caught up with it, purchase the gate blocks & cables. It's time to move on forward. John has too much on his plate to worry about old news.


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## Genxx

I could not agree more.^^^^


----------



## DeanE10

I think the whole "Balanced" horse was dead like 200 threads ago... People need something to latch onto though... Let it go...


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## ChrisB

DeanE10 said:


> I think the whole "Balanced" horse was dead like 200 threads ago... People need something to latch onto though... Let it go...


The balanced thing should have died in the late 90s when digital started to gain in popularity.:laugh:


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## Shadowmarx

???Wheres the DSP???
Thats what i want to know...


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## cyberdraven

Can someone give a technical comparison between the Zapco DSP-8, BitOne and PXA-H800? Both pros and cons please.

Thanks

Rafael


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## tnbubba

ya that would help..all i was wanting to show is that no one has a true balanced line output using rca connections.. just so they don't fall for all the marketing crap.. it can also cause some huge noise with grounding issues. (as an amp designer for a major manufacturer and I discovered last year)
I know balanced is dead at zapco.. so be it.. just don't buy it is a balanced connection from an rca output

yea so what is the difference

.


I'll continue to build my own transmitters receivers as needed


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## Richv72

Am i the only one who was confused by zapcos old c2k line?, even still I have no idea what size the amps are based on the model numbers. Great amps just confusing model numbers.


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## hybridamp

Long read, but I'm more than ready to try a new z, feel free to send me one to demo and I promise to send it back in a few years. No dealers near me has always sucked. lol. You guys rock though dealing with all my custom mod requests for my c2k amps.


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## ACJohn

Richv72 said:


> Am i the only one who was confused by zapcos old c2k line?, even still I have no idea what size the amps are based on the model numbers. Great amps just confusing model numbers.


Well, actually it does work...most of the way. As it happened, we finished the 6.0 first. Rated power was 600 RMS at 2-ohm like the 600 but we wanted a newer techie'r name. It was coming out for year 2000, so C2K-6.0. The 300 went to the 3.0 and the 200 became 2.0. The 4 channels changed functionally because most of the guys were using the 4 channel amps for mids and highs and we needed more power at 4 ohms. We bumped the rail voltage and took away 2-ohm mono stability. The 4.0 was 400 watts (4 x 100) at 4 ohm with the higher voltage, so that works as well. Just move the decimal 2 places to the right and you have power at rated impedance on all of them. 
The small 4ch (4 x 50) was the problem. We already had a 2.0, so we punted and called it a 2.5...after all, it is 200 watts and 50w/channel. That kinda works, doesn't it?

Trivia for the month, eh?

John


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## robert_wrath

Hey ACJohn, I see the homepage has updates on the new ZX Line shipping. How far away are the new DSP's from going out?


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## Slick

They always made sense to me except the 2.5 and the 9.0....2.5 I always thought should have been a 2.4 (like a 4 channel version of the 2.0) or a 2.2( two 2.0's)...

What about the 1.0 John 




ACJohn said:


> Well, actually it does work...most of the way. As it happened, we finished the 6.0 first. Rated power was 600 RMS at 2-ohm like the 600 but we wanted a newer techie'r name. It was coming out for year 2000, so C2K-6.0. The 300 went to the 3.0 and the 200 became 2.0. The 4 channels changed functionally because most of the guys were using the 4 channel amps for mids and highs and we needed more power at 4 ohms. We bumped the rail voltage and took away 2-ohm mono stability. The 4.0 was 400 watts (4 x 100) at 4 ohm with the higher voltage, so that works as well. Just move the decimal 2 places to the right and you have power at rated impedance on all of them.
> The small 4ch (4 x 50) was the problem. We already had a 2.0, so we punted and called it a 2.5...after all, it is 200 watts and 50w/channel. That kinda works, doesn't it?
> 
> Trivia for the month, eh?
> 
> John


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## ACJohn

Slick said:


> They always made sense to me except the 2.5 and the 9.0....2.5 I always thought should have been a 2.4 (like a 4 channel version of the 2.0) or a 2.2( two 2.0's)...
> 
> What about the 1.0 John


Ah yes, the 1.0. ... Seemed like a good idea at the time. Only sold that for a year, only built them for 1/2 a year. They cost like $1.50 less then a 2.0. It was just a 2.0 board with like 4 less parts. Same chassis and all the same hardware, but sold for a couple hundred less. Duh! Oops!

It made no economic sense to set up another run of boards or to pull parts off 2.0 boards to use them.

For a while, anybody who had a 1.0's on order got twice the power they paid for. Then at CES it just disappeared. 


John


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## ACJohn

narvarr said:


> John, what is the current draw of the z-150.6?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


I don't recall the efficiency, but maximum draw on that should be about 150 Amps. 
I am not recommending a 150 Amp fuse. A 80 Amp wafer up front should be way more than enough. If you're using fast blow glass I might go to a 100 amp. I assume you're using this for music listening. The chances of you ever pulling full power out of this amp long enough to blow either of those fuses are pretty darn slim. 
Bigger wire/smaller fuse...protect your car!


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## jcollin76

robert_wrath said:


> Hey ACJohn, I see the homepage has updates on the new ZX Line shipping. How far away are the new DSP's from going out?


Curious about this too....


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## narvarr

ACJohn said:


> I don't recall the efficiency, but maximum draw on that should be about 150 Amps.
> I am not recommending a 150 Amp fuse. A 80 Amp wafer up front should be way more than enough. If you're using fast blow glass I might go to a 100 amp. I assume you're using this for music listening. The chances of you ever pulling full power out of this amp long enough to blow either of those fuses are pretty darn slim.
> Bigger wire/smaller fuse...protect your car!


Thanks John. I am using 1/0 gauge power cable but was just wondering what size fuse I was needing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


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## ACJohn

jcollin76 said:


> Curious about this too....


Guys, I'm sorry. I thought I addressed this already. We will not see the DC series (including the DSP-Z8) until Mid-September. I found out last week and I thought I posted it. 

It started because I wanted to make a couple of changes, so the ST-D got moved ahead of the DC. 

Then something happened that slowed them up but they gave us no notice. I had to ask where my stuff was before they would tell me it would be late.
These guys just will NOT give you bad news.

So, the Studio D should be shipping around the 15th and the DC a month after that.

John


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## hybridamp

Are the new Z series wattage ratings rms at 14.4v?
I'm assuming this from the spec on the z webpage that says: "Tested voltage & THD: 14.4V..."

If so, what voltage were the DC series and C2K tested/rated at (again assuming that it may not be relevant to some of the C2K that had regulated power supplies)?

Also, just a heads up that there is a typo on that web page in the 4th paragraph: "...to see if we could take *out* amps to the next level..."


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## Richv72

Anyone have any gutshots of the new zapco amps yet?


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## Tnutt19

Here are some shots of the Z 150.4
View attachment 38207


View attachment 38206


View attachment 38209


View attachment 38208


View attachment 38205


View attachment 38204


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## hybridamp

Very nice, thanks for posting the pics.


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## DeanE10

Looking good!


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## Sulley

Looks like sex feels...

I would have liked the connections all on one side but damn, do like.


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## DeanE10

stockley.rod said:


> I would have liked the connections all on one side but damn, do like.


This is one of the major issues I had with them... I had to mount them all in a line side-to-side and the connections would have gotten in the way... I would have loved them more if they would have kept the connections like the DC Amps


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## Richv72

Nice, it doesn't look like it shares a board with 20 other brands.


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## instalher

james2266 said:


> If it were only that simple here. About the only thing hearable here is Audison and that is what I am running. I did get to check out the tiny Arc SE 2 channel in a car while in Vegas and was impressed. I think I listened to some PG there in another car but it was more geared towards spl I think - sure pounded anyways.
> 
> As for going to a sound show here, that is exactly what I would love to do but sadly noone ever runs them here. The few that I can find around here within a doable distance by car are always spl based and that is not what I am going for. My installer also told me that they suck in Canada and that to truly get a read on different hi end installs I would have to go to one deep in the US (Cali or Florida areas). I almost was able to attend the April south Cal. get together and that would have shaped my opinions likely and put a major dent in my wallet. I have already spent so much on this hobby it is disgusting. Does it end?


 um not! call me at visions sw. you can listen to my world champion pro sq iasca civic.. anytime...403-255-2270.


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## james2266

instalher said:


> um not! call me at visions sw. you can listen to my world champion pro sq iasca civic.. anytime...403-255-2270.


Um, I tried to call tonight and set up a meet with you for just this. After waiting on hold for about 5 mins, I hung up. This is my second attempt now. I think your ride is sporting Pioneer stage 4 tho correct? Already heard that at MSC actually but not in a vehicle. I was actually impressed by the mid on that set. Going H2H with the Audison Thesis 6, I actually prefered it for midbass. The Audison set was clearer and sweeter in the midrange however but then again it is what? 2x the cost or more? I really want to set up a listen as I am curious as to how mine compares. What I really want is to hear some stuff impossible to hear around here - Morel, Dynaudio, Scanspeak, DLS, TRU, Arc, I could go on here. I do have some experience with Scan and Morel in my ride buying blind and am quite impressed. Impressed enough to want to hear more from those brands actually.

So, I want to come listen to this. I can be there in less than 10 mins any evening or Sat. or Sun. I was hoping for tomorrow or Friday. PM and we can set up something. There is a guy in Airdrie that I would like to meet and wanted to get a listen to this too. Maybe we can get a little get-together going. Maybe I will impress you with my ride too


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## TommyDS

Did anybody compare Z-series against Arc Signature series? I am fully reworking my install for season 2013 and considering Z-series or Arc Signature ...

Are the technical drawings also available, to see what are the possibilities for modification?


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## Sonus

ACJohn - would you have the manual for the ST-D amps somewhere for download?


----------



## hybridamp

Or for the Z series? Can't find anything on the website... Is Robert still with the company also?


----------



## Thunderplains

I am starting to wonder how the new DSP-Z8 will compare against the likes of the Bit One? Esp feature wise. Anyone have any insight?


----------



## Sonus

Thunderplains said:


> I am starting to wonder how the new DSP-Z8 will compare against the likes of the Bit One? Esp feature wise. Anyone have any insight?


Me too, so I started the following thread;
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/135159-rf-3sixty-3-zapco-dsp-z8.html

Looks like the DSP-Z8 will have less features (?), but hopefully better SQ


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## ACJohn

TommyDS said:


> Did anybody compare Z-series against Arc Signature series? I am fully reworking my install for season 2013 and considering Z-series or Arc Signature ...
> 
> Are the technical drawings also available, to see what are the possibilities for modification?


A couple of people have compared them. I will see if they want their names out but you may have to wait a while. Politics will always raise is head.


----------



## ACJohn

Sonus said:


> ACJohn - would you have the manual for the ST-D amps somewhere for download?


I do not, but if you drop me a note ([email protected]) I'll shoot you a pdf of my draft.


----------



## ACJohn

hybridamp said:


> Or for the Z series? Can't find anything on the website... Is Robert still with the company also?


As with the DC, send me your email and I'll send my draft.

Robert is not with the company. I came back in November and Robert had been gone about a year. He is still around though. He is my insurance agent and he's still doing installs around the area, and at the ranch.


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## Richv72

Almost mid september, so hows the dsp-z8 looking?


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## robert_wrath

robert_wrath said:


> *Say it again - Zapco DSP-Z8*


Bump


----------



## TommyDS

Just for info - what is the topology of Z-series amp? Are they using Tip35 - Tip36 transistors or other types?


----------



## robert_wrath

ACJohn, will there be a phone App for the DSP-Z8 available?


----------



## wdemetrius1

TommyDS said:


> Just for info - what is the topology of Z-series amp? Are they using Tip35 - Tip36 transistors or other types?



The topology is Class AB.


----------



## cyberdraven

Eureka! Eureka! I was soooo damn stupid, havent thought of it!

Im a Zapco DC user and always complain about the LOUD BUZZ that occasionally happens during start-up. This is what i found:

1. The buzz, which is high pitch and very loud is not coming from tweeters, but rather on the midbass screaming full range frequencies.
2. It has nothing to do with the stereo, whether you turn-off the radio before you remove your keys or failed to do so.
3. It not about the DLR that you need to remove the fuse.
4. Its not about the processor of the amp that it goes "blue screen" and hangs/malfunction like that of a computer and all you need is to restart.
5. Lastly, its not like the amp has a bug or defect on the amp clipping aparatus.

For my case, this is merely a grounded connection of the midbass in the doors. My midbass is surrounded by aluminum foil deadening sheets with a few millimeters apart but given the road conditions and the frequent opening/closing of the doors, it some instances, these conductive material touches the termination of the midbass creating this ground issue. The Zapcon DC amps, unlike other amps, does not shut-off during amp clipping, thus the continuous loud buzz until you kill the power. We dont experience it everyday but quite annoying. After refitting my midbass, so far, so good. No loud buzz for a month now.

I would like to thank John for the assitance as we almost came into shipping items to replace/mod some parts. Sorry mate for the hassle, but if you wish to send me something to mod the amps, I would gladly accept it. hehehe

Again, this works for me. Felt I need to post it here since I raised this issue in my previous posts.

Paeng


----------



## scion1403

i honestly have no idea how they can possible look at the website and be ok with it. the us dealer link is non existent but their are 2 become dealer link forms. aka are they so ridiculous to deal with that people dont want to carry them? its stupid hard to find legit reviews. i REALLY want a SINGLE good 6 channel amp but they are making it really hard to want to buy. i gotta be honest its a lot like Zuki amps they are great but my god the website and the stiffling payment methods and presentation make it really hard to wanna buy. Dont these guys know that an awesome product is NOT enough you have to market and present yourself. sighhhhhh the search continues


----------



## scion1403

so does anyone know of another HIGH END 5 or 6 channel amp? there is just so much negativity about zapco its products and its service and website im not sure how i can in good conscience buy anything from them or made by the.


----------



## scion1403

WOW i love this site. People do not hold back. Seriously though i jsut wanna buy a fraking amp. But to be honest im scared to buy the zapco at their website prices due to the website itself lol and due to the fact that there do not seem to be ANY dealers...ANYWHERE. That may be just because the link is down but i can only form my opinion on the information you give me. 

Here is the thing i am in the medical field if you walk in and your doctor seems drunk and smells and looks like crap are you seriously going to accept that. i know the product should be what companies are judged for but presentation is important. Despite all the complaints 6 months later the website is still a train wreck... I am NOT a web developer but as god as my witness i can make a better website with a shopping cart and everything.
the Brick and mortal authorized dealer only model is dying. i and many others want to be able to go to zapcos website and buy an amp, yes i understand their will be warranty differences but ive been buying from crutchfield for over a decade and it has worked out great so far.

i really do want to buya zapco 6 channel amp but with zapco scaring the bajeezuz out of me on one of the few working links on their website with hellfire and brimstone if i buy an amp from anyone other than their mythical dealers, the LONG TIME horribly unprofessional nature of the website, and the many changes inside zapco.....

can anyone reassure me that buying a zapco amp is the right choice?


----------



## 12v Electronics

scion1403 said:


> so does anyone know of another HIGH END 5 or 6 channel amp? there is just so much negativity about zapco its products and its service and website im not sure how i can in good conscience buy anything from them or made by the.


Made by what? 

The Devil??










I am a dealer. Come into my store and I will gladly sell you one.


----------



## kustomkaraudio

Don't worry about it, they been around since 1974 ( I will say that I am not a dealer ) They are not going anywhere. Look at TRU Techs. website, not much to write home about. John says he builds amps, not websites.


----------



## scion1403

True i agree with the amp building vs website. and if you HAVE to do one or the other of course build amps. However this isnt 1995, there is no reason why a fully operational website cannot be created by a professional. I know they product is more important but when was the last time you asked out an ugly chick before you knew her personality?
And about your store i will look into it.


----------



## scion1403

Your in Chicago.... ok check that i am not driving to chicago lol
Which brings up a point... why arent you listed on the site?


----------



## scion1403

i know that companies like pioneer and kenwood and alpine are not as good amp wise but they have phone numbers and websites and tech support i can translate indian from lol. i know i know im an american consumer and a royal pain in the butt...... but there is one little issue

I work hard for my money shouldn't i be happy about where i spend it?


----------



## scion1403

Say for instance i bought a zapco from a DIYMA member if i have issues i can still pay to have it fixed right?
i have bought several used things and have a high degree of faith in the members of this board and see some good prices on the 650.6.... but thats the one with the zymablink? i can hook that up to my audiocontrol dqxs right?


----------



## scion1403

Say for instance i bought a zapco from a DIYMA member if i have issues i can still pay to have it fixed right?
i have bought several used things and have a high degree of faith in the members of this board and see some good prices on the 650.6.... but thats the one with the zymablink? i can hook that up to my audiocontrol dqxs right?


----------



## 12v Electronics

scion1403 said:


> Your in Chicago.... ok check that i am not driving to chicago lol
> Which brings up a point... why arent you listed on the site?


Well, that is a good question. But I would not push the question if it were to delay the new product any more than it already is.


----------



## Sonus

I got a replay to my e-mail regarding dealers in under 24 hours when I sent them an e-mail.

I've got no problem buying Zapco products from a dealer that's not listed on a website as long as Zapco has confirmed to me that he's authorized. (I'm buying from overseas, only waiting for the ST-Ds and DSP to start shipping)


----------



## ACJohn

scion1403 said:


> WOW i love this site. People do not hold back. Seriously though i jsut wanna buy a fraking amp. But to be honest im scared to buy the zapco at their website prices due to the website itself lol and due to the fact that there do not seem to be ANY dealers...ANYWHERE. That may be just because the link is down but i can only form my opinion on the information you give me.
> 
> Here is the thing i am in the medical field if you walk in and your doctor seems drunk and smells and looks like crap are you seriously going to accept that. i know the product should be what companies are judged for but presentation is important. Despite all the complaints 6 months later the website is still a train wreck... I am NOT a web developer but as god as my witness i can make a better website with a shopping cart and everything.
> the Brick and mortal authorized dealer only model is dying. i and many others want to be able to go to zapcos website and buy an amp, yes i understand their will be warranty differences but ive been buying from crutchfield for over a decade and it has worked out great so far.
> 
> i really do want to buya zapco 6 channel amp but with zapco scaring the bajeezuz out of me on one of the few working links on their website with hellfire and brimstone if i buy an amp from anyone other than their mythical dealers, the LONG TIME horribly unprofessional nature of the website, and the many changes inside zapco.....
> 
> can anyone reassure me that buying a zapco amp is the right choice?


There are a lot of things here...Yes we need a dealer locator and any number of other things on the site and I'll be all over that once we get these amps all out. In the meantime...call us! You won't get a recording. If we're here we answer. If you are in a remote location we can put you in touch with the nearest dealer and have him ship it to you.

Doctor's "drunk, smelly, and looks like crap". Hmm, seems a little harsh there buddy. I don't drink and I do occasionally shower, so lets just deal with looks like crap. I have to tell you, my first concern is not if he brushed his hair, or even if he brushed his teeth. My first concern is "Does he have any 'fraking' idea what he's doing". Dapper Dan gives me a bad diagnosis, I'm still going be perturbed. 

The site is a whole lot different now than it was in January.

Fire and Brimstone? Here's the big trick...if it doesn't have a serial number, don't buy it. I don't know of any true specialist type company that does not have that warning on their site.

Stifling payment terms? Are you an end consumer? Then it's credit card. What else would it be?

The Ref 650.6 (depending on the year it was made) will have both SymbiLink and RCA..So yes, it will work with the DQXS

Lastly: I have already acknowledged that we need to do more work on the sight, and we will get on it as soon as possible. If you read this whole thread you will see that this horse has been thoroughly beaten. But if it still upsets you that much, may I suggest Power Bass? Personally, I don't think much of their products, but you may have more confidence in their stuff, as they do have a great web site!

You can reach me most any time at [email protected]


----------



## hybridamp

ACJohn said:


> Lastly: I have already acknowledged that we need to do more work on the sight, and we will get on it as soon as possible. If you read this whole thread you will see that this horse has been thoroughly beaten. But if it still upsets you that much, may I suggest Power Bass? Personally, I don't think much of their products, but you may have more confidence in their stuff, as they do have a great web site![email protected]


rofl; love that response. If you need an IT tech with a marketing degree and plenty of experience with your past products, my company does outsource my talents.


----------



## DeanE10

LOL!!! Thanks for the response John... Some folks just do not read the whole thread...

I would still like to know more about WHEN the DSP Z8 is going to be available


----------



## ACJohn

DeanE10 said:


> LOL!!! Thanks for the response John... Some folks just do not read the whole thread...
> 
> I would still like to know more about WHEN the DSP Z8 is going to be available


The DC amps and the DSP-Z8 are being built now. Should be finished in a couple of weeks and we should be shipping by 1st/2nd wk October.

Studio-D are here now. The Studio-X (entry level for us) is coming along but I think that may be a CES item.


----------



## subwoofery

How difficult would it be to create a DC series full range class D? Would be a big seller @ least to me  
With the SQ similar or better than the current DC series amp 

Kelvin


----------



## Richv72

why do people like the dc series so much, seems like the z series are so much better.


----------



## Genxx

^^Now that is a great thought. First ever Class D with built in processing. Everything people like about full range class D with the DSP they want.

4 Channel, 5 channel and a Mono would be awesome. Keep them under the ST line of amps so new line. Get the pricing right and that could be one killer combo. 

ST-4DSP 150 x 4
ST-5DSP 100 x 4 @ 4ohm and 300 x 1 @ 4ohm 600 x 1 @ 2ohm
ST-1kDSP 500x 1 @ 4ohm 1000 x 1 @ 2ohm

Looks like maybe something Zapco could look at in 2013 as if John is not busy enough already.LOL


People like the DC because they have a true fully capable DSP built into the amps.


----------



## ACJohn

Richv72 said:


> why do people like the dc series so much, seems like the z series are so much better.


Convenience, cost, ease of installation. In the 70's and 80's we sold 100 receivers to every set of separates. For most people all-in-one was great. Less money, less room lost to the stereo, and it sounded about the same on most speakers....kinda. 

The new DC352 will give you an amplifier, a channel-summing OEM adapter, and a full DSP in one box. It looks neater in the trunk _and_ it is a great sounding amp! So you put this in the car and tune it and your done. That costs about $650.00

The Z-150.2 is (I believe) is the best sounding amp we've ever sold and it only costs about $500.00

But, for _most_ people, with _most_ speakers, in factory locations, a great sound stage will trump clarity and accuracy every time, especially if the sound quality is close.

Add add an AudioControl LC8i and a DSP-Z8 to the Z-150.2, and you'll have about $1200.00 for the same functions.

So, there's a market for both


----------



## Sonus

Just placed an order for two ST-D4 amps, one ST-D2 and a DSP-Z8 

Can't wait for it to arrive


----------



## robert_wrath

Bump it *Say it again - Zapco DSP-Z8*


----------



## Richv72

What happens if the zapco authorized dealer in your neighborhood goes out of business? Who do you deal with if you have warranty issues?. I ask this because I was cruising around and was looking for the stereo shop in town, they are gone now and were zapco dealers.


----------



## robert_wrath

Richv72 said:


> What happens if the zapco authorized dealer in your neighborhood goes out of business? Who do you deal with if you have warranty issues?. I ask this because I was cruising around and was looking for the stereo shop in town, they are gone now and were zapco dealers.


Easy, contact John @ Zapco direct in Modesto.


----------



## customtronic

I read a little of the thread and then skipped around a bit. Bottom line is the product rocks...as most of us know. John is one of the most knowledgable guys in the industry so you know you're going to get top notch tech support. The website has had it's problems over the years but in my opinion it's getting better. My car has DC in it now but I'll soon swap them out for the Z-series amps and a DSP8.


----------



## Izay123

Is there a way to daisy-chain 2 dsp-Z8s? If not, are the outputs fully configurable (possibly use one unit for right & one unit for left, etc.)

I ask this because I'm looking for an alternative to pro audio processors for 16 channels of DSP.


----------



## customtronic

I know that you could do that with the DSP6 and I'm pretty sure the 8 will do it also. To be sure I'd call John at Zapco and verify that. 209-599-2394


----------



## robert_wrath

ACJohn, get in on this:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/136813-zapco-dsp8.html#post1722361


----------



## Richv72

I was thinking maybe the dsp-8 is inexpensive because you dont get the control added in as part of the package, right?. You must have a laptop computer to tune this thing right out of the box, and the controller is like 300 bucks more if you want to go that route. This is just from what ive read so im not quite sure, but does this sound correct?


----------



## robert_wrath

How many current/new processors offer a controller or laptop along with the purchase?


----------



## customtronic

robert_wrath said:


> How many current/new processors offer a controller or laptop along with the purchase?


:thumbsup:


----------



## podsmack

I've never had any issues with any of the Zapco products I've owned in over 20 years that I didn't cause myself or that my Zapco dealer didn't have repaired under warranty... I had to replace the mounting feet on my reference amps a few weeks back as two were half broken... Called the phone number on the website and Aaron answered, sold me 3 pairs of upgraded aluminum mounting brackets for my amps and then I had a tech question to which he transferred me to John who also answered and promptly helped me out...
Put a Ref 750 on a set of solid components and you'll forget all about that website thing...


----------



## ACJohn

Hi, been a little busy but here are a few things from recent posts.

1. *Control:* full control is strictly PC. With the added features we couldn't make the DRC work. There will be a small remote to provide volume for the Aux inputs. It will also have memories and source selection and cost just under $100.00

2. *10 bands parametric:* That was my choice originally on the DSP-6 because I thought that would be more than enough to EQ any one channel or channel pair. I still think so, especially with the Z8, when you can run Q anywhere from .5 to 10.

3. *Daisy Chain:* Sure, you can stack up as many as you want. The channels don't care what they are. Just put them in the network and call up the one you want to adjust. What you can not do is have unit 2 pick up its input from unit 1. You'll need to have separate inputs or "Y" them. 
Of course you can also use 1 for R Ch and 1 for L Ch, but don't try to stack the EQs to get 20 bands and mono-bridge an amp. A mono bridge will use L(1) for + and R (2)for -, so if you eq the 2 channels differently you will get a very weird signal. 1 and 2 have to be identical.

4. *The Price:*First; we really won't make a bunch of money on the DSP-Z8. It's almost just a courtesy to you guys and the competitors. My market is really the DC amps. This is where I think I can give dealers a great device for virtually _any_ car. You get Amp, DSP, OEM, Summing...and all in one box.
Secondly; My goal with the processing was to give the tuner everything he or she needed to do the job, without stuff they don't need, and without expensive flash. I tried to make it effective, simple, and affordable.


----------



## robert_wrath

Good post Johnny!


----------



## Sonus

Muhahahaha.....










Only waiting for a DSP-Z8 now


----------



## subwoofery

subwoofery said:


> How difficult would it be to create a DC series full range class D? Would be a big seller @ least to me
> With the SQ similar or better than the current DC series amp
> 
> Kelvin


Quoting myself since my post went unnoticed :blush: 

Thanks, 
Kelvin


----------



## Shinju

I have a spy Gutshot of the ST-5D .

I have to say for how small and compact it is, it looks to be quality built.


----------



## reno.sa

Shinju said:


> I have a spy Gutshot of the ST-5D .
> 
> I have to say for how small and compact it is, it looks to be quality built.


post a pic, would love to see the guts....


----------



## darrenforeal

i am really chomping at the bit waiting to here some feedback on some of the z series e.g. z 150.2 and z 400.2. Also the DSP 8. I want to hear about that too, especially when compared to something like the tuning on the p99


----------



## robert_wrath

The DSP-Z8 ships at the end of the month.


----------



## ACJohn

darrenforeal said:


> i am really chomping at the bit waiting to here some feedback on some of the z series e.g. z 150.2 and z 400.2. Also the DSP 8. I want to hear about that too, especially when compared to something like the tuning on the p99


Hi, you can drop a note to Matt R, Don Aman, or Jeff Smith about the Z-150.2

Kirk Proffitt is using the Z-400.2s

I think they're all on the forum here.


----------



## ACJohn

subwoofery said:


> Quoting myself since my post went unnoticed :blush:
> 
> Thanks,
> Kelvin


It did not go unnoticed. In fact I like the idea a lot.

Sorry I did not respond right away, but I did start thinking about it right away.

The big question is real estate. It would definitely need to get little bigger (probably wider). I have already asked my friends in Italy to look at the concept to see how we could make it work.

I'm not saying we'll build it...but I like the concept a lot.

And thanks for the input.

John


----------



## BigRed

The Z150x2 is special. That is for sure


----------



## subwoofery

ACJohn said:


> It did not go unnoticed. In fact I like the idea a lot.
> 
> Sorry I did not respond right away, but I did start thinking about it right away.
> 
> The big question is real estate. It would definitely need to get little bigger (probably wider). I have already asked my friends in Italy to look at the concept to see how we could make it work.
> 
> I'm not saying we'll build it...but I like the concept a lot.
> 
> And thanks for the input.
> 
> John


Woot Woot!!!!! Eagerly waiting for an update then  

Thanks John, 
Kelvin


----------



## aj1735

I just got my new z150.4 a couple of days ago and I think that it sounds a lot better than my JL 450/4 did. I can tell a big difference in them. Now I just need to finish my build. I have to save up and get a z400.2 and a z150.2 yet for the rest of it. Hopefully it will happen sooner than later. I had a couple of friends up here in Iowa hear the difference and I think that they might want to get a couple also. We don't have any dealers up here that I know of. Probably the closest would be Chicago about 5 hours away. I can't wait till I get it all set up. 

Here is what it will be when it's all done. 
Pioneer 800prs 
Audison bit1 for now probably go with the dspz8 in a little while. 
Audison voce tweet 
Audison voce av3.0 
Audison voce 6.5 
Zapco Z150.2 for 6.5's 
Zapco z150.4 for mids and tweets 
Zapco z400.2 for subs
2 JL 8W3V3'S for now behind the back seat of my f350 crew cab dually

Need a little more sub output, maybe a couple voce 10's. Something that is not that deep to fit behind the seat. I can't wait to be able to afford all of it. I know that it should be as good as any around here in des Moines. We will have to get a few more zapcos up here in the Midwest. Lol. 

Thanks for making a great product John. I will probably be calling with questions along the way. 

Thanks, 
Andy


----------



## robert_wrath




----------



## clayton1985

aj1735 said:


> I just got my new z150.4 a couple of days ago and I think that it sounds a lot better than my JL 450/4 did. I can tell a big difference in them. Now I just need to finish my build. I have to save up and get a z400.2 and a z150.2 yet for the rest of it. Hopefully it will happen sooner than later. I had a couple of friends up here in Iowa hear the difference and I think that they might want to get a couple also. We don't have any dealers up here that I know of. Probably the closest would be Chicago about 5 hours away. I can't wait till I get it all set up.
> 
> Here is what it will be when it's all done.
> Pioneer 800prs
> Audison bit1 for now probably go with the dspz8 in a little while.
> Audison voce tweet
> Audison voce av3.0
> Audison voce 6.5
> Zapco Z150.2 for 6.5's
> Zapco z150.4 for mids and tweets
> Zapco z400.2 for subs
> 2 JL 8W3V3'S for now behind the back seat of my f350 crew cab dually
> 
> Need a little more sub output, maybe a couple voce 10's. Something that is not that deep to fit behind the seat. I can't wait to be able to afford all of it. I know that it should be as good as any around here in des Moines. We will have to get a few more zapcos up here in the Midwest. Lol.
> 
> Thanks for making a great product John. I will probably be calling with questions along the way.
> 
> Thanks,
> Andy


What yr 350 you have?

What is the word on the i-force line? Ive heard 'not so good' things about them. Not sure why. I just bought a i4100.4 to power my krx2's.


----------



## aj1735

clayton1985 said:


> What yr 350 you have?
> 
> What is the word on the i-force line? Ive heard 'not so good' things about them. Not sure why. I just bought a i4100.4 to power my krx2's.


I have a 01 f350 crew cab dually with the 7.3 diesel. I train and show horses so I haul all over the country in it pulling a trailer. Planning on getting a newer one sooner or later, but it keeps running strong. I really can't afford a new 60k dually. They are just ridiculously expensive. 

I don't know much about those lines of amps but I bet others will have some info on them. I have just had a few of the older reference series amps. I have a almost mint zapco 1100m that I trying to sell right now. It is one with the silver cover. It's a little to big to fit under my back seat.


----------



## clayton1985

I hear ya, tough to get anything new on the cheap nowadays. I paid 40k for my 08' two years ago...

What is the mounting depth on those jl subs? Are you custom making box for them?


----------



## aj1735

clayton1985 said:


> I hear ya, tough to get anything new on the cheap nowadays. I paid 40k for my 08' two years ago...
> 
> What is the mounting depth on those jl subs? Are you custom making box for them?


Sorry to get off topic a little bit. I have been using 3 of the jl 8w3v3's right now off a JL 1000/1. They are pretty shallow and I have some truck style boxes that they fit in and fit behind my seat. I just put the grills on them so they have room to move behind the seat. I will be using just 2 until I find a good upgrade to something better. I will use a zapco z150.2 (that I still have to purchase) till I can afford a z400.2 on the 8's and have time to make some pods for the 3's that will use the z150.2. I hope I can get it done before it starts snowing, I plow snow all night with my truck also. I want it to sound great all night. Lol I am praying for snow, and lots of it. It just means more money coming in.


----------



## MrDee78

I am having a lot of difficulty getting a response from Zapco regarding purchasing for non-US based consumers. Can anyone offer any advice. Have PM'ed ACJohn (have not had a reply yet).


----------



## clayton1985

You def spend alot of time in your truck, best get it sounding top notch! Speaking of snow we got about 1.5/2 feet the last two days and more to come this week..

I just got a single 12" ported box from spl2k last week and ordered a pioneer sub (ts-sw3001s2), best option i could find given the small depth. I tried finding a mono zapco for it but bought an audison (Sr-1d) from a member on here.


----------



## Sonus

MrDee78 said:


> I am having a lot of difficulty getting a response from Zapco regarding purchasing for non-US based consumers. Can anyone offer any advice. Have PM'ed ACJohn (have not had a reply yet).


I bought from an authorized dealer on this forum and had it shipped abroad 

If you don't get a PM from someone let me know and I'll put you in contact


----------



## Matt R

MrDee78 said:


> I am having a lot of difficulty getting a response from Zapco regarding purchasing for non-US based consumers. Can anyone offer any advice. Have PM'ed ACJohn (have not had a reply yet).


Have you emailed them directly? [email protected] should get you to his business email. He may not be real hip with the in's and out's of this forum and pm's. 

Matt


----------



## MacLeod

So how do you go about buying anything from zapco? I was looking at their amps but don't see any prices and there is no listing of dealers. Wish they'd make it a little easier to shop for their stuff.


----------



## DeanE10

[email protected] for a dealer near you...


----------



## 12v Electronics

MacLeod said:


> So how do you go about buying anything from zapco? I was looking at their amps but don't see any prices and there is no listing of dealers. Wish they'd make it a little easier to shop for their stuff.


Funny, but before everybody started bitching about the website in this thread, the website was helpful and listed dealers like us. 

Now, not so much


----------



## Vaglover

MacLeod said:


> So how do you go about buying anything from zapco? I was looking at their amps but don't see any prices and there is no listing of dealers. Wish they'd make it a little easier to shop for their stuff.


I kinda wish they'd at the very least just place some prices on their products. If I decide I want it ill email zapco. Find my local dealer and then talk them more directly about ordering.


----------



## MacLeod

DeanE10 said:


> [email protected] for a dealer near you...


Ugh. In this day and age I gotta send and email and wait a day or two for a response? Why not a drop down list of them based on zip code like most other brand's websites? 

Sent from my HTC Thunderbolt using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 12v Electronics

robert_wrath said:


>


Oh no........


Zapco is using Instagram. Do I start loading the Zombie rounds?


----------



## clayton1985

I just scour ebay. Dont always find what you're looking for but its a start.


----------



## Richv72

Vaglover said:


> I kinda wish they'd at the very least just place some prices on their products. If I decide I want it ill email zapco. Find my local dealer and then talk them more directly about ordering.


They used to have the prices listed, wonder why they took them off?. I agree though at least list the msrp on the item to give people an idea or ballpark range of pricing.


----------



## maztah

can I get an honest feedback with my question? 
I have been a Zapco fan for several years now, and just recently, I earned 3rd place at EMMA competition in our country with SQ score close (2 points difference) to rivals with systems having price more than twice of mine.
This is using just one DC350.2 which I really love

If I want to bring my system to a whole new level (best of the best), which upgrade should I do?
1. buying new DC reference to go 3-way full active on top of my old DC350.2 so that I can expand my tuning capability (I'm worried about not having symbilink though)?
2. get rid of DC350.2 and get Z series amps with DSPZ8. Since you mentioned Z series is the best amp that is even better than C2K which makes it tempting.

I am bothered with the thinking that the 2nd option will give me the best result with less tuning requirements..


----------



## darrenforeal

option 2. And tune the heck out of it


----------



## pocket5s

It's in the tune, not necessarily the cost of the equipment. That said, the DSP8 will give you more tuning options.


----------



## Richv72

Just wondering if zapco ever plans to make another PEQ/ SEQ, 18 band. Ive noticed even the beat up ones are still very much sought after, almost like a cult following.


----------



## goodstuff

robert_wrath said:


> The DSP-Z8 ships at the end of the month.


I think I want one.


----------



## ACJohn

Regarding Dealers: Yes we have a problem. The problem, of course, was of Zapco's making and now we're paying for it. For a while we got smaller and smaller until we were almost solely in the competition scene with little distribution across the US. Then we just went away for a while. Now we're rebuilding. 

Where most companies start with marketing, I started with product. The Italian is definitely a sound quality nut. Always has been. So first we wanted product that would meet and then exceed what we have done in the past. We wanted to build the best sounding amp around, I think we've done it. And now we will work on making that amp even better. We wanted to bring better sound and more power to full range Class D, and I think we've done that as well. We wanted to get the DC back into production and fix the issues it had and add more functionality. We've done that....I'll address the delays in the next post. 

So now we have to sell the amps so we can keep making them. And that is a complete rebuild. There are, sadly, few dealers actually stocking product. I pulled the locator down because most of the dealers there were not carrying product, but, they still want access to customers looking for Zapco so they can sell them something they do stock. There are dealers on this forum who want to be on the locator but don't stock any product.

So for the time being, if you want a dealer please do call me. If I can't find somebody close to you I will either authorize someone to send it to you or I will sell it from here. 

As soon as I finish going through my list of folks who say they still want to be dealers I'll get them up on the site. And if you want to be a Zapco dealer please do contact me also. 
[email protected] / 209 599 2394


----------



## ACJohn

*Re: Zapco -DC Delay*

Where is the DSP and the DC Amps??

Well they are built waiting for me to release them. 
This will be the third time I have introduced Digital products for a company. I want the new DC line to be the first digital product ever to come out without bugs. It is incomprehensible how may funny little bugs can hide out in program code. For three months the unit worked great as we ironed out some things then Bang...we had a lock-up at finals and I held up shipping until we found the issue. I think we're there but I will know for sure in a day or two. Then we can burn new disks and ship.
Best guess...4 weeks to ship from Manteca


----------



## ACJohn

Matt R said:


> Have you emailed them directly? [email protected] should get you to his business email. He may not be real hip with the in's and out's of this forum and pm's.
> 
> Matt


Thanks Matt, Yes I'm a bit busy getting the train rolling again. I get updates on a couple of threads and hop in when I need to, but I don't always see the PMs. Sometimes they pop up but sometimes they don't and I don't always go to the CP to check. 
I will try to check more often but if you need to get to me I am at [email protected] almost 24/7

John


----------



## MacLeod

Thanks for the reply John. I didn't know you guys were in a rebuilding phase. 

Any plans to distribute thru online retailers like Crutchfield? That's a whole lot easier to buy from for us guys that more than likely won't be within a few hundred miles of an actual dealer. Plus Crutchfield has that awesome 0% interest financing I like so much.  

Sent from my HTC Thunderbolt using Tapatalk 2


----------



## clayton1985

John, Were you involved with the iForce line at all? Curious your thoughts/opinions on these amps?
Thanks.


----------



## ACJohn

clayton1985 said:


> John, Were you involved with the iForce line at all? Curious your thoughts/opinions on these amps?
> Thanks.


Yes, I was. We were looking for an entry lever line and had never had one before. We talked to a couple of companies who been making good reliable amps for other companies. We asked for their top sound quality amps and then looked at the boards.

For some reason (I assume assembly time) the Switching/Regulation, and the Output Stage of all the amps were arranged so there was a lot of crossing of signal path and supply path. A little re-arranging of the board layout and we had a good symmetrical board and a good sounding amp with good power for the money. They did what we needed very well. I apologize for the bright blue lighted top badge, but that was what the market wanted.

So, I think the iForce amps gave you a great value when you look at sound and power for the dollar. The hardware and feel weren't the same as the other Zapcos but they sounded pretty darn good. The problem in today's market would be size. Those were big bulky amps. Again, it was a different market.


----------



## clayton1985

ACJohn said:


> Yes, I was. We were looking for an entry lever line and had never had one before. We talked to a couple of companies who been making good reliable amps for other companies. We asked for their top sound quality amps and then looked at the boards.
> 
> For some reason (I assume assembly time) the Switching/Regulation, and the Output Stage of all the amps were arranged so there was a lot of crossing of signal path and supply path. A little re-arranging of the board layout and we had a good symmetrical board and a good sounding amp with good power for the money. They did what we needed very well. I apologize for the bright blue lighted top badge, but that was what the market wanted.
> 
> So, I think the iForce amps gave you a great value when you look at sound and power for the dollar. The hardware and feel weren't the same as the other Zapcos but they sounded pretty darn good. The problem in today's market would be size. Those were big bulky amps. Again, it was a different market.


:thumbsup: Great info, appreciate the feedback.


----------



## BigRed

John did u get my pm?


----------



## Matt R

I have several local cars with Iforce amps that really kick ass!!! Especially for the power to dollar ratio. A friend of mine put the 1000 on a Memphis M3 15 and fried it quick, had to go to the Mojo. The Memphis dealer had never seen a 1000 watt amp blow the M3 before. That thing is a monster!!!! We could have easily put the 600 watt amp on it and killed the average 1000 watt amp.

I have the new studio line on the way for testing. I'm real anxious, have high hopes!!!! 

Matt


----------



## BigRed

The 6.5k is absolutely ridiculous !!


----------



## subwoofery

Matt R said:


> I have several local cars with Iforce amps that really kick ass!!! Especially for the power to dollar ratio. A friend of mine put the 1000 on a Memphis M3 15 and fried it quick, had to go to the Mojo. The Memphis dealer had never seen a 1000 watt amp blow the M3 before. That thing is a monster!!!! We could have easily put the 600 watt amp on it and killed the average 1000 watt amp.
> 
> I have the new studio line on the way for testing. I'm real anxious, have high hopes!!!!
> 
> Matt


Studio D or X? 

Kelvin


----------



## robert_wrath

The RevolveMaps option on the Zapco Homepage (located on the top right) is pretty cool.
http://www.zapco.com/


----------



## Coppertone

Ok por guy in NJ is still looking for a Zapco dealer so that I can order my my amp from please.


----------



## robert_wrath

*Say it again - Zapco DSP-Z8*


----------



## robert_wrath

Coppertone said:


> Ok por guy in NJ is still looking for a Zapco dealer so that I can order my my amp from please.


Order from ACJohn direct. I doubt there'll be an issue.


----------



## Offroader5

I'm interested in that DC line. Any ideas on street prices? The only way to get these right now is direct from Zapco?


----------



## Sonus

robert_wrath said:


> *Say it again - Zapco DSP-Z8*


I was told by my dealer that it will be shipping in two weeks time. That was 5 days ago


----------



## Richv72

ACJohn said:


> Regarding Dealers: Yes we have a problem. The problem, of course, was of Zapco's making and now we're paying for it. For a while we got smaller and smaller until we were almost solely in the competition scene with little distribution across the US. Then we just went away for a while. Now we're rebuilding.
> 
> Where most companies start with marketing, I started with product. The Italian is definitely a sound quality nut. Always has been. So first we wanted product that would meet and then exceed what we have done in the past. We wanted to build the best sounding amp around, I think we've done it. And now we will work on making that amp even better. We wanted to bring better sound and more power to full range Class D, and I think we've done that as well. We wanted to get the DC back into production and fix the issues it had and add more functionality. We've done that....I'll address the delays in the next post.
> 
> So now we have to sell the amps so we can keep making them. And that is a complete rebuild. *There are, sadly, few dealers actually stocking product.* I pulled the locator down because most of the dealers there were not carrying product, but, they still want access to customers looking for Zapco so they can sell them something they do stock. There are dealers on this forum who want to be on the locator but don't stock any product.
> 
> So for the time being, if you want a dealer please do call me. If I can't find somebody close to you I will either authorize someone to send it to you or I will sell it from here.
> 
> As soon as I finish going through my list of folks who say they still want to be dealers I'll get them up on the site. And if you want to be a Zapco dealer please do contact me also.
> [email protected] / 209 599 2394


If they aren't stocking the product then what's the point of keeping zapco a dealer only based company? It would be 10 times more convenient to just buy the products online at competitive prices, than have to drive all the way down to the stereo shop, research who is a dealer, and I guess not even be able to walk out of there with the product because they don't stock it. So we will have to make a return trip to the dealer to pick it up.


----------



## Matt R

Coppertone said:


> Ok por guy in NJ is still looking for a Zapco dealer so that I can order my my amp from please.


There is a guy on the forum named Don, he is a Zapco dealer in NJ if i'm not mistaken. I'm sure someone else can chime in and give you his screen name.


----------



## chithead

6spdcoupe ^^^

In Central Jerzee


----------



## thehatedguy

Yeap


----------



## Matt R

subwoofery said:


> Studio D or X?
> 
> Kelvin


I have the Studio D 100.2 right now, been playing it for a bit. It sounds real good too. I think the new designs have really hit the nail on the head.


----------



## thehatedguy

I want a pair of dc1004s.


----------



## Tnutt19

Matt R said:


> I have the Studio D 100.2 right now, been playing it for a bit. It sounds real good too. I think the new designs have really hit the nail on the head.


Matt a lot of is are wondering if you are going to be doing a class mods to the z and ZX line?


----------



## Genxx

I have ST-5D on the way as well to install and test out myself.

I installed several iForce amps and all of them performed excellent. Always made great power, no noise and great price. Only issue sometimes was size. Those and JL JX line where my go to bang for buck amps, iForce was chosen when more power was needed.


----------



## customtronic

Richv72 said:


> If they aren't stocking the product then what's the point of keeping zapco a dealer only based company? It would be 10 times more convenient to just buy the products online at competitive prices, than have to drive all the way down to the stereo shop, research who is a dealer, and I guess not even be able to walk out of there with the product because they don't stock it. So we will have to make a return trip to the dealer to pick it up.


It's not that the dealers aren't stocking the product. The new product has not arrived in the States yet. Give it a couple of weeks. I'm waiting for the ship to arrive myself. Most dealers should stock the popular models. I know I plan on keeping a good stock on the models I think will sell the most.


----------



## ACJohn

*ReC - Final Update for Arrival*

OK, I know it's taken forever but they are on the way. 

Product is under way on the HJ.Dallas and due into Oakland on Nov 30th. A couple days in customs and we will have them, in the warehouse.

Really!!

See my next post for purchase (dealer) availability.

John


----------



## Coppertone

^^^^. Ok


----------



## ACJohn

*Re: Zapco - Availability*

"what's the point of keeping zapco a dealer only based company"

Oops...sorry I got side tracked.
Dealer Availability:
1) Selling direct would work fine if we could stay small and local. However I came on to grow the company, both in the US and internationally. I can't do that in this industry without building a dealer bass in the US and a distributor base internationally. That's just the way it works. 

2) Most of the guys on this forum (not all, but most) can handle the electronics installation and have some understanding of tuning. But the wider general public? Hell NO! And DC ... Oh my GOD! Honestly, you wouldn't believe it! We're not Boss or PowerBass. This company can not exist without a good base of qualified dealers/installers. 

I'm sure we will be on the internet eventually but we have to find the right way to do it and take care of our dealers at the same time.

*In the mean time:* I personally know at least 6 Zapco dealers on this forum and on this thread. West Coast, East Coast, and Central. If you post up on this thread what you want I have to think someone will contact you. If not...give me a call and I will put you in contact with the closest one.

John


----------



## darrenforeal

I'd like to share a few little impressions I have of the new Zapco Z series...

These are some of the finest car audio amps I have ever worked with or heard. They look sexy as hell, have a fantastic build quality and are simply SQ monsters.

Day before yesterday I installed a few z150.2s in my BMW, replacing the TRU super billet 6, which I loved. These Zapcos are better. Even with the same tune and just plug and play. 

Can you say headroom?? They are powerful, refined, and have exceptional tonality traits. The midbasses show how these 150.2s have some serious balls. But where they shine even more, is the mids and highs. More detail and accuracy than previous amps I have had; and clearer definitions in imaging. Like I said, this is the same old tune from the amp I had before. I CAN'T WAIT to re-tune the car for these guys. I'll give a more detailed review with pictures in another thread in a few weeks. Zapco has found some unicorn tears or something and sprinkled them into these amps. There is something extraordinary about them.


----------



## DAT

darrenforeal said:


> I'd like to share a few little impressions I have of the new Zapco Z series...
> 
> These are some of the finest car audio amps I have ever worked with or heard. They look sexy as hell, have a fantastic build quality and are simply SQ monsters.
> 
> Day before yesterday I installed a few z150.2s in my BMW, replacing the TRU super billet 6, which I loved. These Zapcos are better. Even with the same tune and just plug and play.
> 
> Can you say headroom?? They are powerful, refined, and have exceptional tonality traits. The midbasses show how these 150.2s have some serious balls. But where they shine even more, is the mids and highs. More detail and accuracy than previous amps I have had; and clearer definitions in imaging. Like I said, this is the same old tune from the amp I had before. I CAN'T WAIT to re-tune the car for these guys. I'll give a more detailed review with pictures in another thread in a few weeks. Zapco has found some unicorn tears or something and sprinkled them into these amps. There is something extraordinary about them.



Yeah I agree totally !! Congrats on your upgrade...


----------



## customtronic

darrenforeal said:


> I'd like to share a few little impressions I have of the new Zapco Z series...
> 
> These are some of the finest car audio amps I have ever worked with or heard. They look sexy as hell, have a fantastic build quality and are simply SQ monsters.
> 
> Day before yesterday I installed a few z150.2s in my BMW, replacing the TRU super billet 6, which I loved. These Zapcos are better. Even with the same tune and just plug and play.
> 
> Can you say headroom?? They are powerful, refined, and have exceptional tonality traits. The midbasses show how these 150.2s have some serious balls. But where they shine even more, is the mids and highs. More detail and accuracy than previous amps I have had; and clearer definitions in imaging. Like I said, this is the same old tune from the amp I had before. I CAN'T WAIT to re-tune the car for these guys. I'll give a more detailed review with pictures in another thread in a few weeks. Zapco has found some unicorn tears or something and sprinkled them into these amps. There is something extraordinary about them.


Well put! I have a treo of new Z amps that will be replacing my pair of DC1000.4's. I have heard nothing but awesome reviews from everyone that has tried them so far! Have to finish up the paying jobs before moving onto my own ride.


----------



## tnbubba

how much is the 150x4


----------



## tyroneshoes

Zapco Rep,

Ive been using your amps and speakers for years. The one thing I would really like is an amp that is small format class d or g/h (est [email protected] 4ohms) with dsp, but not necessarily as thorough as the large dc ref.

Something like the kenwood kac-x4r

But like 150x4 with delay, some eq and flexible crossovers. Maybe a digital read out on the amp like kenwood had in this discontinued amp and no usb/software.

www.sonicelectronix.com/item_12053_...sg=AFQjCNFDaz_9hXQ-y9AJ9XL78FyGyifhZA&cad=rja

I prefer the dc ref but I cant fit them under a front seat due to the size and would rather not buy an external processor.

Just a thought but it would be a great seller if priced right.


----------



## customtronic

tyroneshoes said:


> Zapco Rep,
> 
> Ive been using your amps and speakers for years. The one thing I would really like is an amp that is small format class d or g/h (est [email protected] 4ohms) with dsp, but not necessarily as thorough as the large dc ref.
> 
> Something like the kenwood kac-x4r
> 
> But like 150x4 with delay, some eq and flexible crossovers. Maybe a digital read out on the amp like kenwood had in this discontinued amp and no usb/software.
> 
> www.sonicelectronix.com/item_12053_...sg=AFQjCNFDaz_9hXQ-y9AJ9XL78FyGyifhZA&cad=rja
> 
> I prefer the dc ref but I cant fit them under a front seat due to the size and would rather not buy an external processor.
> 
> Just a thought but it would be a great seller if priced right.



Best bet I think is Studio D's with a DSP8 hidden somewhere else.


----------



## JoeHemi57

Any idea the price of the DC 6 channel?


----------



## customtronic

JoeHemi57 said:


> Any idea the price of the DC 6 channel?


Retail on the DC656 is $1259. If you can find it on sale you might be able to get it for closer to $1100.


----------



## JoeHemi57

customtronic said:


> Retail on the DC656 is $1259. If you can find it on sale you might be able to get it for closer to $1100.


Thanks i wish but can't afford it...
I saw the ref650.6 available for under $500 might have to go that route.


----------



## customtronic

JoeHemi57 said:


> Thanks i wish but can't afford it...
> I saw the ref650.6 available for under $500 might have to go that route.


If you can find it new for $500 I'd go for it in a second. You can always add a DSP8 later on.


----------



## Offroader5

Not sure if it has already been asked or noticed, but the power ratings for the DC656 seem off. It says that this amp is a DC364 & DC352 in one chassis, but it only says 6x50 for the 656. The 364 is shown rated at 4x50 and the 352 is shown at 2x100.

Question is....shouldn't then the 656 show ratings of 4x50+2x100, or is there something I'm missing? Maybe the 656 is set up differently so the 2 channel section is toned down a bit?


----------



## thehatedguy

The old one was 6x50.


----------



## ultimatemj

My DC650.6 is 4x50w + 2x100w, granted I'm using it configured to 2x180w + 2x100w


----------



## narvarr

Any word on the DSP-Z8 yet?

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


----------



## DeanE10

narvarr said:


> Any word on the DSP-Z8 yet?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


This would be the perfect fit for you man... Still planning the build?


----------



## customtronic

DSP8 should be here first week of December. Should be a little eight channel bad ass! My Magnum and my F350 are both waiting for one!


----------



## DAT

customtronic said:


> DSP8 should be here first week of December. Should be a little eight channel bad ass! My Magnum and my F350 are both waiting for one!


Agree they should be very nice... 

BTW: You join HAT ?


----------



## narvarr

DeanE10 said:


> This would be the perfect fit for you man... Still planning the build?


Planning is done, I just need to make time to actually work on it. The DSP8 is going in a dedicated SQ project car build that's waiting in the wings. I pulled up the GUI at work last night to show some coworkers and it looks to be a very potent little unit.

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


----------



## darrenforeal

Can't wait for this DSP. I'll be running one for sure in one of my competition vehicles and maybe one in the other one too


----------



## ACJohn

Offroader5 said:


> Not sure if it has already been asked or noticed, but the power ratings for the DC656 seem off. It says that this amp is a DC364 & DC352 in one chassis, but it only says 6x50 for the 656. The 364 is shown rated at 4x50 and the 352 is shown at 2x100.
> 
> Question is....shouldn't then the 656 show ratings of 4x50+2x100, or is there something I'm missing? Maybe the 656 is set up differently so the 2 channel section is toned down a bit?


The site is wrong. It is 4 x 50 and 2 x 100 just like the DC650. The Ref 650 was 6 x 50 but the back end was high curent so you could get about 360 watts at 2 ohm mono. I'll check the site Friday

Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## robert_wrath

*
Say it again - Zapco DSP-Z8*









Just in time for the holiday's. My girlfriend's been asking me what I want for Christmas. Hmmmmmmmmm.......lemme think for a sec - This!


----------



## robert_wrath

Happy Thanksgiving ACJohn & all you Zapco Enthusiasts!


----------



## BigRed

I'm running 4 z150 one one each midbass , and one for mids and another for highs. The 6.5k is on my subs of course. Very pleased with their performance. Really good stuff


----------



## subwoofery

BigRed said:


> I'm running 4 z150 one one each midbass , and one for mids and another for highs. The 6.5k is on my subs of course. Very pleased with their performance. Really good stuff


You were using Mosconi before, right? 

Better headroom from the Zapco? 

Kelvin


----------



## BigRed

i was using Arc Audio before. I'm not a big believer in headroom discussion, but they do sound very nice


----------



## 07azhhr

ACJohn said:


> The site is wrong. It is 4 x 50 and 2 x 100 just like the DC650. The Ref 650 was 6 x 50 but the back end was high curent so you could get about 360 watts at 2 ohm mono. I'll check the site Friday
> 
> Thanks for the heads up.


John - What are the gain's set out out of the box on the older DC ref amps? I haven't had a chance to connect my laptop up to my DC200.2 so I am curious as to how they come from the factory. It sure sounds good even powering my full 3 way front that had 145w avail before.


----------



## 12v Electronics

07azhhr said:


> John - What are the gain's set out out of the box on the older DC ref amps? I haven't had a chance to connect my laptop up to my DC200.2 so I am curious as to how they come from the factory. It sure sounds good even powering my full 3 way front that had 145w avail before.


I believe it is around 10 volts


----------



## 07azhhr

So pretty close to closed position? I changed the symlink from 12 db down to 6db would that make any difference with the current gain?


----------



## Sonus

robert_wrath said:


> *
> Say it again - Zapco DSP-Z8*


X2 

I want my DSP-Z8 please


----------



## Sulley

^this!

Anybody have a copy of the demo software still? I seem to have miss placed the setup files.
Thanks


Sent from my Motorola StarTAC


----------



## robert_wrath

Email ACJohn, he sent it out a while back.


----------



## Sonus

Sing with me;
// all I want for christmas is my new dsp, my new dsp//


----------



## Stage7

Coppertone said:


> Ok por guy in NJ is still looking for a Zapco dealer so that I can order my my amp from please.


I picked up my Z series from Don Amman of Unexpected Creations in Edison NJ. Great guy and he often _stocks_ a few.


----------



## Richv72

Do the new z amps actually sound better then the c2k amps?.


----------



## aj1735

Richv72 said:


> Do the new z amps actually sound better then the c2k amps?.


I think they are supposed to sound better. I have never heard the c2k amps but I can say my z150.4 and zx200.4 sound amazing. Way better than anything else that I have ever had. I really like them.


----------



## Richv72

aj1735 said:


> I think they are supposed to sound better. I have never heard the c2k amps but I can say my z150.4 and zx200.4 sound amazing. Way better than anything else that I have ever had. I really like them.


you got any pictures of the z150 and zx200 installed?


----------



## aj1735

Richv72 said:


> you got any pictures of the z150 and zx200 installed?


No, not at the moment. I just have them under my back seat of my truck until I get time to build my amp rack for behind my back seat. I can just do it in steps at the moment. Right now my priority is building mid and tweet pods for my pillars. Then I can work on getting it all pretty. The little bit that I've been able to use them, they just sound great. I can't wait to get it all done.


----------



## ACJohn

*Re: Zapco - Z-150.4*

A few words about the Z-150.4. We have had three Z-150.4 customers call (or post) about scratchy distortion. A lot of responses on the forum suggested different possibilities, but I believe we have found an issue with this model amp. If you have a Z-150.4 and you think you have audible distortion, especially when cold, please give me a call.

ONLY the Z-150.4: The Z-150.4 is unique among all the amps in that the supply voltage comes directly off the rails. After being stepped down, the voltage is marginally low and some units can develop crossover distortion...especially when cold, or when battery voltage is low. 

We're sorry for any inconvenience, this is something that just never showed up in any of the test units. Unfortunately we can't tell which units will develop the problem so we are modding all the units we have here and we'll let the dealers know there could be a problem with some of Z-150.4's. 

If you have a Z-150.4, please feel free to call even if it sounds great. We'll send a call tag to pick it up and mod it for you, so you won't have to worry about anything going sour down the road. 

*Again:* this is *only* the Z-150.4. All the other amps pull the supply differently.

Thx
John


----------



## highspeed

Thanks John! I love to see a manufacture be pro-active about this sort of thing. It make my decision to purchase Zapco products that much easier. The Z150.4 is still on my wish list.


----------



## aj1735

*Re: Zapco - Z-150.4*



ACJohn said:


> A few words about the Z-150.4. We have had three Z-150.4 customers call (or post) about scratchy distortion. A lot of responses on the forum suggested different possibilities, but I believe we have found an issue with this model amp. If you have a Z-150.4 and you think you have audible distortion, especially when cold, please give me a call.
> 
> ONLY the Z-150.4: The Z-150.4 is unique among all the amps in that the supply voltage comes directly off the rails. After being stepped down, the voltage is marginally low and some units can develop crossover distortion...especially when cold, or when battery voltage is low.
> 
> We're sorry for any inconvenience, this is something that just never showed up in any of the test units. Unfortunately we can't tell which units will develop the problem so we are modding all the units we have here and we'll let the dealers know there could be a problem with some of Z-150.4's.
> 
> If you have a Z-150.4, please feel free to call even if it sounds great. We'll send a call tag to pick it up and mod it for you, so you won't have to worry about anything going sour down the road.
> 
> *Again:* this is *only* the Z-150.4. All the other amps pull the supply differently.
> 
> Thx
> John


I am so impressed with John and zapcos customer support. It is my amp that they found an issue with. John has been so helpful on our phone conversations when we were trying to trouble shoot the amp. I believe that they have gone above and beyond normal service. Because of that they have gained me for life as a customer. I can't wait to get my install finally done.


----------



## 07azhhr

Yea I have had to call them for help and John answered, helped and followed thru on what he said he would do in a timely manor. I emailed another time for help again and he responed in less then 1 hour. 

The products, well what can I say, Zapco makes great products. They were tier 1 products when I started in the late 80's early 90's and it is great to see that they still make great products.


----------



## Sonus

John - any news on shipping dates for the DSP-Z8?

would make an awesome Christmas gift from me to me


----------



## ACJohn

Sonus said:


> John - any news on shipping dates for the DSP-Z8?
> 
> would make an awesome Christmas gift from me to me


Yes, I do have news! The dock strike is over and I should have the DC product in a couple of days. 

Whew...Finally!


----------



## robert_wrath

*ACJohn, any chance I* *may order a DSP-Z8 factory direct from you?**

Say it again - Zapco DSP-Z8*


----------



## LovesMusic

May I order one as well?


----------



## Sonus

ACJohn said:


> Yes, I do have news! The dock strike is over and I should have the DC product in a couple of days.
> 
> Whew...Finally!


----------



## Coppertone

LovesMusic said:


> May I order one as well?


Please add me as #3 on the order list.


----------



## robert_wrath

There you go, 3 sales.............all from New Jersey.


----------



## Coppertone

We roll DEEP in New Jersey lol...


----------



## nepl29

robert_wrath said:


> There you go, 3 sales.............all from New Jersey.


They might want to contact Don aka 6spdcoupe. He's an authorized zapco dealer in Edison, NJ.


----------



## LovesMusic

Coppertone said:


> We roll DEEP in New Jersey lol...


I hate to say it, but so true lol...


As far as Don at unexpected creations, I have heard great things about him, I sent him an email about 3 weeks ago with no reply...


----------



## 6spdcoupe

nepl29 said:


> They might want to contact Don aka 6spdcoupe. He's an authorized zapco dealer in Edison, NJ.


Thanks Nelson, always appreciated bud !


----------



## robert_wrath

Might I say "*New Jersey Zapco DSP-Z8 Group Buy" *perhaps?


----------



## 6spdcoupe

LovesMusic said:


> I hate to say it, but so true lol...
> 
> 
> As far as Don at unexpected creations, I have heard great things about him, I sent him an email about 3 weeks ago with no reply...


My apologies if I missed your email. When the Hurricane came we were without phone/internet service (Cablevision) for about a week and half, since then we have been still experiencing some intermittent issues - ie: emails not coming in/going out, calls not completing when dialed, missed calls when it never even rings, etc. 

If you would like to resend I would be more than happy to respond !


----------



## 02TurboA4

LovesMusic said:


> I hate to say it, but so true lol...
> 
> 
> As far as Don at unexpected creations, I have heard great things about him, I sent him an email about 3 weeks ago with no reply...


I'm really surprised he hasn't responded. I would send him another email or give him a call. He is usually fairly busy but has always got back to me within a couple hours. I've done a lot of business with him over the last 5 or so years.


----------



## Stage7

02TurboA4 said:


> I'm really surprised he hasn't responded. I would send him another email or give him a call. He is usually fairly busy but has always got back to me within a couple hours. I've done a lot of business with him over the last 5 or so years.


ditto


----------



## LovesMusic

02TurboA4 said:


> I'm really surprised he hasn't responded. I would send him another email or give him a call. He is usually fairly busy but has always got back to me within a couple hours. I've done a lot of business with him over the last 5 or so years.



It was a week after sandy, the situation is completely understandable all I had was my cell phone going crazy lol, sorry if that came across as a jab, don well be speaking soon thank you.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

LovesMusic said:


> It was a week after sandy, the situation is completely understandable all I had was my cell phone going crazy lol, sorry if that came across as a jab, don well be speaking soon thank you.


No offense taken at all my friend ! I was stuck with just a cell phone as well trying to run two businesses and tether multiple PCs ... I feel your pain !


----------



## ACJohn

*DSP-Z8 and DC Amps*

*Latest word: *Sitting in Oakland for release and we should be able to have them here by Tuesday or Wednesday.


----------



## robert_wrath

*Re: DSP-Z8 and DC Amps*



ACJohn said:


> *Latest word: *Sitting in Oakland for release and we should be able to have them here by Tuesday or Wednesday.


ACJohn, you have my blessing to sleep with my girlfriend for one night.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

*Re: DSP-Z8 and DC Amps*



robert_wrath said:


> ACJohn, you have my blessing to sleep with my girlfriend for one night.


Oh ?


----------



## robert_wrath

That is if you like Filipino women.


----------



## reno.sa

Hey Guys 

I just got my Z8 today and would love to share some pics with you guys. I have taken a pic of the guts and would love to post it here so that alot of you can drool over the pics....LOL.... I would like a go ahead but would like the go ahead from John first, don't want to break any sort of copyright laws....


----------



## Sonus

Pics pronto 

Maybe Santa will bring me something nice this year. A DSP-Z8 would sure be better than new socks and slippers :lol:


----------



## ACJohn

reno.sa said:


> Hey Guys
> 
> I just got my Z8 today and would love to share some pics with you guys. I have taken a pic of the guts and would love to post it here so that alot of you can drool over the pics....LOL.... I would like a go ahead but would like the go ahead from John first, don't want to break any sort of copyright laws....


Reno...you're killing me here! Sure..post 'em up.

For my local US friends, Reno is in So.Africa. There was no dock strike in So.Africa. Word today was that the shipment would be in our hands Friday. So...maybe Friday but more likely Monday before I have them here.

Keeping my fingers crossed.

John


----------



## reno.sa

Hope you guys enjoy the pics......

Sorry John I thought the strike was over in the states.....just got so excited and thought I should share it with everyone :biggrinflip:


Hope amp guts dont steal these pics......


----------



## Sonus

Sing along;



> Every body Pauses and stares at me
> This DSP is not here as you can hear
> I don't know just who to blame for this longing!
> But my one wish for Christmas Eve is as plain as it can be!
> 
> All I want for Christmas
> is my one DSP,
> my D S P,
> see my one DSP!
> 
> Gee, if I could only
> have my D S P,
> then I could wish you
> "Merry Christmas."
> 
> It seems so long since I could listen to;
> "Sister Susie sitting on a thistle!"
> Gosh oh gee, how happy I'd be,
> if I could only listen (to my DSP tuned system)
> 
> All I want for Christmas
> is my one DSP,
> my D S P,
> see my one DSP!
> 
> Gee, if I could only
> have my D S P,
> then I could wish you
> "Merry Christmas."


 
Has anyone got a 6-7 year old at home without their two front teeth that could record this and send it to John so they can listen to it while turning around the shipment of DSP-Z8s :lol:


----------



## reno.sa

I installed my DSP last night and struggled a little with getting the laptop to recognize the DSP.:cwm23: I am used to the old fashioned style EQ's where you move and pushes all theses knobs. 

Anyway besides the point I sent John a Email telling him about my problem and literally within 5 min I get a reply from him. To cut the story short we connected via skype and in 15min he had the dsp working, very impressive after sales service..... Most times you have company's with S**ty products and good service, or good products with bad service.... John want to compliment you on your GREAT service....WELL DONE..... those of you waiting for Zapco products its worth the wait great products with great service.......Bigup to you John.....:thumbsup:

P.S I was pretty nervous about tuning the sound with the DSP was scared I wasn't going to get it right, but to be honest the software is very user friendly you catch on very quickly.....


----------



## darrenforeal

I want one. Maybe two.  Come on shipment!


----------



## Sonus

It might have been covered before, but would the DRC-SL controll the DSP-Z8 like it controlls the DC reference amps?


----------



## narvarr

Sonus said:


> It might have been covered before, but would the DRC-SL controll the DSP-Z8 like it controlls the DC reference amps?


No it will not.

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Richv72

reno.sa said:


> Hope you guys enjoy the pics......
> 
> Sorry John I thought the strike was over in the states.....just got so excited and thought I should share it with everyone :biggrinflip:
> 
> 
> Hope amp guts dont steal these pics......


Wow those are stuffed full of gizmos.


----------



## Sonus

Any updates?


----------



## thehatedguy

Looks like a dsp6, but with more stuff.

Definitly doesn't look like what I was thinking based on rumors of who was thought to build it.

I want one.


----------



## massimo.italiano

Waiting for my Z150.6 .... I hope it's all what people are raving about! I wonder if anyone has tried Zapco against Brax?

Would love to test my Brax platinum 6 channel against the Z150.6! Considering the price difference - if the new Z series compares then we have a winner here at quarter of the price!

Will let you guys know! Hoping to get the Z series on the 21st of December - if the local agents are correct!

Massimo


----------



## reno.sa

massimo.italiano said:


> Waiting for my Z150.6 .... I hope it's all what people are raving about! I wonder if anyone has tried Zapco against Brax?
> 
> Would love to test my Brax platinum 6 channel against the Z150.6! Considering the price difference - if the new Z series compares then we have a winner here at quarter of the price!
> 
> Will let you guys know! Hoping to get the Z series on the 21st of December - if the local agents are correct!
> 
> Massimo


Looking forward to hearing how it compares the the BRAX......


----------



## ACJohn

*Re: Zapco - DC's and DSP-Z8*

*We have DC!!* 

I have been in *HELL* for the last four days. From waking up to passing out I have been used up trying the get the damn DC product that has been on a ship or on the dock, or in a warehouse in Oakland for 2 weeks now. I flipped out with the carriers pointing fingers at each other yesterday and canceled the pickup order (from last week). 

I rented a truck. Drove to Oakland this morning, and picked up the goods. 

It just wasn't that complicated!!

Anyway ... DC is now in the house *at last*, and so is the DSP-Z8.

_We thank you for you patience ...._ 
John


----------



## piyush7243

ACJohn said:


> *We have DC!!*
> 
> I have been in *HELL* for the last four days. From waking up to passing out I have been used up trying the get the damn DC product that has been on a ship or on the dock, or in a warehouse in Oakland for 2 weeks now. I flipped out with the carriers pointing fingers at each other yesterday and canceled the pickup order (from last week).
> 
> I rented a truck. Drove to Oakland this morning, and picked up the goods.
> 
> It just wasn't that complicated!!
> 
> Anyway ... DC is now in the house *at last*, and so is the DSP-Z8.
> 
> _We thank you for you patience ...._
> John


Howz that for the best Christmas present. 

Great work John 

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## 12v Electronics

*Re: Zapco - DC's and DSP-Z8*



ACJohn said:


> *We have DC!!*
> 
> I have been in *HELL* for the last four days. From waking up to passing out I have been used up trying the get the damn DC product that has been on a ship or on the dock, or in a warehouse in Oakland for 2 weeks now. I flipped out with the carriers pointing fingers at each other yesterday and canceled the pickup order (from last week).
> 
> I rented a truck. Drove to Oakland this morning, and picked up the goods.
> 
> It just wasn't that complicated!!
> 
> Anyway ... DC is now in the house *at last*, and so is the DSP-Z8.
> 
> _We thank you for you patience ...._
> John


The dock strike really screwed things up, but it shouldn't have been that much trouble. Sounds like you need a better Freight Forwarder.


----------



## Matt R

Nice work John, "take the bull by the horns"!!!!


----------



## instalher

i like the components used in the topology but not sure how well the stacked boards are going to hold up over time in a moving vehicle.. they have always been the weakest link in any electronic device in a car...thus no one uses this method anymore.. look at the arc piece or the monsconi.. what was the design philosophy behind using stand up boards as opposed to one double sided glass epoxy circuit borard? p.s. not going to sway me from gettting one tho..


----------



## customtronic

*Re: Zapco - DC's and DSP-Z8*



ACJohn said:


> *We have DC!!*
> 
> I have been in *HELL* for the last four days. From waking up to passing out I have been used up trying the get the damn DC product that has been on a ship or on the dock, or in a warehouse in Oakland for 2 weeks now. I flipped out with the carriers pointing fingers at each other yesterday and canceled the pickup order (from last week).
> 
> I rented a truck. Drove to Oakland this morning, and picked up the goods.
> 
> It just wasn't that complicated!!
> 
> Anyway ... DC is now in the house *at last*, and so is the DSP-Z8.
> 
> _We thank you for you patience ...._
> John


 Bunch of happy Zapco fans everywhere!!!!


----------



## Sonus

Happy festive season everyone 

Any news on outbound shipping dates


----------



## robert_wrath

Now ACJohn has to prepare for the CES in Vegas in a couple of weeks.


----------



## co_leonard

robert_wrath said:


> Now ACJohn has to prepare for the CES in Vegas in a couple of weeks.


The threadstarter (Cyberdraven) has an awesome sounding car. Pioneer P90 head unit, Seas 2-way, Seas sub and two Zapco DC-REF amps. If ever you plan on visiting, this is a must-hear.


----------



## robert_wrath

ACJohn, are you introducing anything new @ the CES Show?


----------



## Richv72

How many ces shows are there, wasnt there one just a couple months ago?. Maybe that was sema idk.


----------



## robert_wrath

Richv72 said:


> How many ces shows are there, wasnt there one just a couple months ago?. Maybe that was sema idk.


I think you're referring to the _KnowledgeFest_ 2012 show.


----------



## BigRed

If he does ill take pics


----------



## BigRed

They have arrived


----------



## pocket5s

BigRed said:


> They have arrived


You bought two??


----------



## subwoofery

pocket5s said:


> You bought two??


For the price of 1 x PS8, get two DSP-Z8 

Kelvin


----------



## Sonus

BigRed said:


> They have arrived


I bet those are empty fake boxes 

Pics of the units or I don't believe my eyes


----------



## robert_wrath

BigRed said:


> *They have arrived*


"Let there be Light! I am the Creator."


----------



## robert_wrath

Sonus said:


> I bet those are empty fake boxes
> 
> Pics of the units or I don't believe my eyes


Curious, why would BigRed lie about ownership?


----------



## darrenforeal

Nice Jim


----------



## Sonus

robert_wrath said:


> Curious, why would BigRed lie about ownership?


It was a poor attempt at a joke trying to get him to snap a few pics of the units - sorry if it wasn't clear


----------



## BigRed

This looks interesting


----------



## robert_wrath

BigRed said:


> This looks interesting


 Oh Damn my dick is hard! I love it.:laugh:


----------



## EditTim

BigRed said:


> This looks interesting


Oh yes, please!

So...

...is this ready yet (eta)?


----------



## BigRed

Ill find out for ya


----------



## EditTim

BigRed said:


> Ill find out for ya


Coolio. I actually searched before I posted, but it doesn't exist on the google... 

The digital aux volume control is key.

How many presets does the DSP-Z8 have anyway?


----------



## 6spdcoupe

EditTim said:


> Oh yes, please!
> 
> So...
> 
> ...is this ready yet (eta)?


Not as of yet, gonna be at least a few weeks.


----------



## BigRed

4 presets


----------



## robert_wrath

BigRed, if you have the opportunity, can you post up a YouTube Video of the masterpiece at work - particularly the GUI.


----------



## BigRed

Will do


----------



## robert_wrath

You Da F'n Mann Dogg!


----------



## EditTim

6spdcoupe said:


> Not as of yet, gonna be at least a few weeks.


Thank you sir! I'll key my eyes open... 



BigRed said:


> 4 presets


That should do it.


----------



## Sonus

I'm hoping to receive my DSP-Z8 any time now and need to start planning where to fit it and the three ST-D amps that's accompanying it.

Three of them will be hidden, and one unit on show. The unit that will be on show will be mounted "on" the subwoofer enclosure. 

Would you mount an amp or could I possibly also mount the DSP there or would the possible vibrations from the 10" subwoofer destroy the DSP? I'm slightly worried due to what looks like circuit boards that are mounted 90 degrees to the main circuit board of the DSP-unit.

I've attached a pic of the "in progress" enclosure. It started out as a cubby hole under the floor in the boot of my BMW E91 Wagon. I used an original BMW part made out of hardback felt that I've reinforced with fibre glass and resin mixed with cement to add weight to it.

The on show unit will mount to the flat part to the right on the pic.

Could some one that's got the unit also confirm if the measurments on the Zapco site is with the power plug/rca that sticks out or if it's only the casing? 

Thanks


----------



## darrenforeal

Sonus said:


> I'm hoping to receive my DSP-Z8 any time now and need to start planning where to fit it and the three ST-D amps that's accompanying it.
> 
> Three of them will be hidden, and one unit on show. The unit that will be on show will be mounted "on" the subwoofer enclosure.
> 
> Would you mount an amp or could I possibly also mount the DSP there or would the possible vibrations from the 10" subwoofer destroy the DSP? I'm slightly worried due to what looks like circuit boards that are mounted 90 degrees to the main circuit board of the DSP-unit.
> 
> I've attached a pic of the "in progress" enclosure. It started out as a cubby hole under the floor in the boot of my BMW E91 Wagon. I used an original BMW part made out of hardback felt that I've reinforced with fibre glass and resin mixed with cement to add weight to it.
> 
> The on show unit will mount to the flat part to the right on the pic.
> 
> Could some one that's got the unit also confirm if the measurments on the Zapco site is with the power plug/rca that sticks out or if it's only the casing?
> 
> Thanks


I would not mount an amp or DSP to a sub box. You may be okay, but you are just asking for it to go south.


----------



## ACJohn

Sonus said:


> I'm hoping to receive my DSP-Z8 any time now and need to start planning where to fit it and the three ST-D amps that's accompanying it.
> 
> Three of them will be hidden, and one unit on show. The unit that will be on show will be mounted "on" the subwoofer enclosure.
> 
> Would you mount an amp or could I possibly also mount the DSP there or would the possible vibrations from the 10" subwoofer destroy the DSP? I'm slightly worried due to what looks like circuit boards that are mounted 90 degrees to the main circuit board of the DSP-unit.
> 
> I've attached a pic of the "in progress" enclosure. It started out as a cubby hole under the floor in the boot of my BMW E91 Wagon. I used an original BMW part made out of hardback felt that I've reinforced with fibre glass and resin mixed with cement to add weight to it.
> 
> The on show unit will mount to the flat part to the right on the pic.
> 
> Could some one that's got the unit also confirm if the measurments on the Zapco site is with the power plug/rca that sticks out or if it's only the casing?
> 
> Thanks


Darren is exactly right. Don't mount either to the sub box. The biggest problem we see is amps coming in with everything looking good except that the legs on the outputs are completely broken off. That's because the outputs are bolted to the chassis and they can't move when the board vibrates. We'll usually fix them once and send them back with a warning. We will definitely not fix them twice.


----------



## ACJohn

Oh... and the specs are only the chassis. You'll need to leave room for your RCA's

John


----------



## Sonus

Thanks Darren and John

I'll have to have a rethink then. Maybe I could cut the amp rack/sub enclosure in two decoupling them? They'd still be mounted to the same cover panel though(?).


----------



## ds1919

you can mount the amp and dsp to the same panel/board. Neither units are capable of developing their own vibrations of any sort. Its always a good idea, for the health of the amps/processors/xovers/etc to keep vibration to a minimum. That could look like isolating them with a baffle of some sort. Remember also, that amplifiers NEED to be able to dissipate heat, they cannot be covered completely, without proper ventilation/fans. 

You "should" have plenty of room in your wagon to mount the gear away from the sub.


----------



## ds1919

ACJohn, I have about three or four older Zapco amps that are in need of repair. One is an i-600, another is an AG360, and the other is Z100C2-SL. Cant remember if I have another Zapco in need of help. I also have an old SX eq that I need the cable and PSU for. Can you please direct me to the person that would be able to help repair these and/or source the parts for me? 

thanks!


----------



## Sonus

Thanks guys, I needed a push in a different direction 

I will now possibly be able to fit two amps side by side and save even more space 

The maps will be under hung from the cover panel and the sub enclosure decoupled so less vibrations should affect the amps. DSP will get it's own space. The other benefit is that I can now use one ST-D4 for the right hand side and one ST-D4 for the left side. Front channels driving the mids and tweets front and back and the rear channels bridged to my 8" mid bass.

Sorry, just realized I should start my own project thread instead of taking this one OT


----------



## cyberdraven

Space? Zapco amps are huge but darn beautiful! Did this in my trunk and still have huge space. Inspired by home audio stackable amp design. Hehehe




























Paeng


----------



## Sonus

cyberdraven said:


> Space? Zapco amps are huge but darn beautiful! Did this in my trunk and still have huge space. Inspired by home audio stackable amp design. Hehehe
> 
> Paeng


I'm hiding all three ST-D-series amps and the DSP. Daily life won't let me build something like your nice install unfortunately.


----------



## Coppertone

Well done as far as keeping it classy and clean. Which subwoofer is that please?


----------



## thehatedguy

I like the remote. Reminds me of the vintage Zapco processors...what was it, the PX?


----------



## cyberdraven

Coppertone said:


> Well done as far as keeping it classy and clean. Which subwoofer is that please?


Seas leroy


----------



## Richv72

I emailed zapco to get a couple of old zapco amps fixed, so far i have had no reply from them, its been about a week. Does zapco have a phone number to call?. Seems strange to have no phone number for technical support on the website.


----------



## robert_wrath

Richv72 said:


> I emailed zapco to get a couple of old zapco amps fixed, so far i have had no reply from them, its been about a week. Does zapco have a phone number to call?. Seems strange to have no phone number for technical support on the website.


Give ACJohn some time, likely symptoms from CES.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

Richv72 said:


> I emailed zapco to get a couple of old zapco amps fixed, so far i have had no reply from them, its been about a week. Does zapco have a phone number to call?. Seems strange to have no phone number for technical support on the website.


You should get a reply Monday. They were all away at CES this week.


----------



## Richv72

6spdcoupe said:


> You should get a reply Monday. They were all away at CES this week.


Ah thanks man for the info, I was wondering what was going on.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

Richv72 said:


> Ah thanks man for the info, I was wondering what was going on.


 Small company with a lot of heart ... they wanted to make sure all hands were on deck for such a large event. 

They do also have a number to call under the contact tab: Zapco - Contact Us

If you have any problems, let me know and I would be more than happy to assist.


----------



## Sonus

Sonus said:


> Thanks guys, I needed a push in a different direction
> 
> I will now possibly be able to fit two amps side by side and save even more space
> 
> The maps will be under hung from the cover panel and the sub enclosure decoupled so less vibrations should affect the amps. DSP will get it's own space. The other benefit is that I can now use one ST-D4 for the right hand side and one ST-D4 for the left side. Front channels driving the mids and tweets front and back and the rear channels bridged to my 8" mid bass.
> 
> Sorry, just realized I should start my own project thread instead of taking this one OT


Instead of taking this thread off topic any more I've started my own install thread here 

BMW e91 / Zapco / Gladen / Image-dynamics

I'd appreciate comments and ideas


----------



## prettysweetsounds

Anyone here have the chance to play with the new z line amps, specifically the 6chan powerhouse?


----------



## Richv72

Yeah they called me back today, Z220 is one of the 5 amp models they dont repair anymore.


----------



## Tnutt19

prettysweetsounds said:


> Anyone here have the chance to play with the new z line amps, specifically the 6chan powerhouse?


Amps are spectacular!! They would pair very nicely with the P99RS you have shipping to you


----------



## prettysweetsounds

^^Sorry for scooping that h/u from you tnutt! (well...not too sorry : ) )

Do you own one of the amps? I've had my share of Zapco amps and always loved the c2k's particularily...but even the reference and dc were great to use...


----------



## prettysweetsounds

Oh...and the p99rs isn't 'shipping' to me. It's here and it's a beautifull deck.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

prettysweetsounds said:


> Anyone here have the chance to play with the new z line amps, specifically the 6chan powerhouse?


Several of em, not so much words, just...


----------



## prettysweetsounds

6spdcoupe said:


> Several of em, not so much words, just...


I believe you're a distributor? 

Is Zapco still supplying Canadian vendors? I know it's been getting harder and harder to find dealers but I read something on their (zapco's) website saying the don't sell to Canada anymore...but that may refered to their internet sales only.

could you shed some light on that?


----------



## Tnutt19

prettysweetsounds said:


> I believe you're a distributor?
> 
> Is Zapco still supplying Canadian vendors? I know it's been getting harder and harder to find dealers but I read something on their (zapco's) website saying the don't sell to Canada anymore...but that may refered to their internet sales only.
> 
> could you shed some light on that?


No problem Bud, I actually was contacted by a form member that saw me inquiring about the p99 on that thread and have a super Mint one coming my way so no hard feeling at all, worked out for everyone.

I know you had those custom C2K's about a year ago. I had a chance to play with the Z150.4 and did the ZX beast 4 channel. Super impressive to say the least. I really do not think you would be disappointed with them at all.


----------



## rgiorgio

I have the Z 150.6 and love it. I had the C2k's perviously. Love em all. Zapco's products and service have made me a believer for quite a while. Would have gone with new DSP8 but took too long, went Mosconi instead. Sounds great with the amp.


----------



## aj1735

Tnutt19 said:


> Amps are spectacular!! They would pair very nicely with the P99RS you have shipping to you


That's what I'm using right now. I have a p99rs and am using a zapco z150.4 and zx200.4. I just love them. I just wish that the zx200.4 wasn't quite so big, but I love the sound and power of it though. I still have 2 unused channels until I get my mid pods made. Hopefully, I can get them done later this week. 

How was the response at ces to the new models?


----------



## Jfreak

I just bought 2-150.2, 1-400.2 and 1-2kd... Can't wait to hear it when it's done. I'm upgrading from elemental designs... Should be a significant upgrade. Lol


----------



## Izay123

prettysweetsounds said:


> Anyone here have the chance to play with the new z line amps, specifically the 6chan powerhouse?


I've had a couple of the 6 channel Z series amps for a while now.
You can check out my review thread here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...arisons/140573-zapco-z-series-amplifiers.html


----------



## prettysweetsounds

Izay123 said:


> I've had a couple of the 6 channel Z series amps for a while now.
> You can check out my review thread here:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...arisons/140573-zapco-z-series-amplifiers.html


^^thanks, I'll have a read right now!


----------



## Jfreak

BigRed said:


> This looks interesting


I'd be happy to test the prototype. Lol 

I need a good volume control for my carputer.


----------



## Sonus

ACJohn - hope you might be able to help with this one.

I'm running two ST-4D amps, one for left and one for right. The rear channels will be bridged for the mid bass and the front channels will be running front and rear components

All speakers are 4 ohm and I've still got some hearing left and would like to keep it this way 

Would the amps get hot running like this? Do they have thermal protection?

Reason for asking is to decide upon how to mount them.


----------



## ACJohn

Hi Sonus,

Of course they have thermal protection, but you don't want to use it. Who need music cutting off?

Looks like you'll have 4 ohms/ch front and 2 ohms/ch rear. That should be no problem. Depending on how much volume you plan to use I would leave air around them and use a fan if they are covered. They'll radiate straight up off the sink. At 4 ohm/2ohm you're really not driving them that hard in normal conditions....but I don't know what your "normal" is.

The chassis is small but class d runs cooler, so thermally, they're way better than the Z or the old C2K. 

Short answer: I don't think you'll have any problems, as long as they can breathe.


----------



## Sonus

Thanks John

I'll wire it all up before I do the finishing of the panels to see if they will be fine.

Would you disclose at what temps they shut down? 

I might measure the surface temperature of the amps with my IR thermometer to see how close I am.


----------



## robert_wrath

ACJohn, any info on the Z8-R Dash Remote? Pics, Specs Sheet?


----------



## DeanE10

robert_wrath said:


> ACJohn, any info on the Z8-R Dash Remote? Pics, Specs Sheet?


I 2nd this question


----------



## Coppertone

I'm also awaiting word on this dash remote to go along with my Z8


----------



## bbfoto

That Z8-R remote looks tiny. If that is a female USB "B" port on the front for PC Control, then it looks like the front faceplate is about ~3" wide and 1" to 1.25" high.

Anybody have the actual measurements, including depth?


----------



## rcurley55

A few questions:

Can you mix the "old" dc products and the new ones in the same system and have them linked for control using the software?

Can you upgrade the "old" dc products to have the latest version of the software so that they have access to the new phase control and other settings?


----------



## barracuda777

rcurley55 said:


> A few questions:
> 
> Can you mix the "old" dc products and the new ones in the same system and have them linked for control using the software?
> 
> Can you upgrade the "old" dc products to have the latest version of the software so that they have access to the new phase control and other settings?


It would be amazing this kind of upgrade, but I don't think so. However I would pay for a software upgrade and have access to new functions


----------



## rcurley55

barracuda777 said:


> It would be amazing this kind of upgrade, but I don't think so. However I would pay for a software upgrade and have access to new functions


I guess I'm trying to figure out if it is a hardware limitation or not.

That said, second hand, the DC amps are really affordable and are a nice option when compared to other amps out there. I've probably owned 6-8 of the DC amps (every single one except the 1100.1 and 1000.4 in fact) and really liked them.


----------



## barracuda777

I agree
However mini dsp for example offer several possibilities, several softwares to upgrade the processor with the same hardware. Zapco can do it?

Personally I migrate from DSP6 & 1 DC360.4 to a pair of 1000.4 and possibly a 1100.1 and I loved them too.


----------



## Elektra

massimo.italiano said:


> Waiting for my Z150.6 .... I hope it's all what people are raving about! I wonder if anyone has tried Zapco against Brax?
> 
> Would love to test my Brax platinum 6 channel against the Z150.6! Considering the price difference - if the new Z series compares then we have a winner here at quarter of the price!
> 
> Will let you guys know! Hoping to get the Z series on the 21st of December - if the local agents are correct!
> 
> Massimo


Well here it is...

Upon testing the Z150.6 I had to remove the DC 360.4 that was in its place whilst repairs to the Brax was on going. The DC360.4 is a brilliant amp for mids and tweeters! Warm, very quite no hiss! Easy to get it to sound right without EQ just gain and crossover setup required. Love it! 

Now we listened to a reference track to get a fresh picture of what is going on then we installed the new amp (Z150.6). The results....

Not great! The amp added color to the mids and tweeters - very bright! Harsh not nice to listen too! Sorry guys! I tried everything to get it to sound right - using the F1 status and Dynaudio Esotar setup! So not like my equipment is at fault!

My findings are as follows:

1) too much color in the upper region 
2) too much hiss at low gains
3) even with a RTA and a PXA H900 processor I could not get rid of the high screech the amp produced 
4) bit concerned about the cheap looking silver RCA's and plastic gain controls
5) for such a high powered amp their isn't any weight to it to suggest substantial product 

Conclusion 

Zapco is a great company - the DC amps punched well above their price - never heard the C2K amps as they were too expensive but they must have been something special if the DC amps sounded like this! Not everything is what it seems - expensive amps can sound bad and cheap amps can sound good - E.O.S. amps for instance... Top equipment!

I was so hoping for something good considering the talk of the Z series being an upgrade to the C2K range! Unfortunately this is not the case - for my ears the old DC range sounds miles better! 

Not in the same ball park to a Brax amp! DC amp very close!

Sorry guys!


----------



## highspeed

Elektra said:


> Well here it is...
> 
> Upon testing the Z150.6 I had to remove the DC 360.4 that was in its place whilst repairs to the Brax was on going. The DC360.4 is a brilliant amp for mids and tweeters! Warm, very quite no hiss! Easy to get it to sound right without EQ just gain and crossover setup required. Love it!
> 
> Now we listened to a reference track to get a fresh picture of what is going on then we installed the new amp (Z150.6). The results....
> 
> Not great! The amp added color to the mids and tweeters - very bright! Harsh not nice to listen too! Sorry guys! I tried everything to get it to sound right - using the F1 status and Dynaudio Esotar setup! So not like my equipment is at fault!
> 
> My findings are as follows:
> 
> 1) too much color in the upper region
> 2) too much hiss at low gains
> 3) even with a RTA and a PXA H900 processor I could not get rid of the high screech the amp produced
> 4) bit concerned about the cheap looking silver RCA's and plastic gain controls
> 5) for such a high powered amp their isn't any weight to it to suggest substantial product
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> Zapco is a great company - the DC amps punched well above their price - never heard the C2K amps as they were too expensive but they must have been something special if the DC amps sounded like this! Not everything is what it seems - expensive amps can sound bad and cheap amps can sound good - E.O.S. amps for instance... Top equipment!
> 
> I was so hoping for something good considering the talk of the Z series being an upgrade to the C2K range! Unfortunately this is not the case - for my ears the old DC range sounds miles better!
> 
> Not in the same ball park to a Brax amp! DC amp very close!
> 
> Sorry guys!


I would send that amp back to Zapco to be checked out. It sounds like it has a problem to me... have you called them?


----------



## BigRed

here is a short video on the Zapco Z8 processor. Please note that this video was done by me, and any inaccurate statements made by me in regards to the processor and how it works are not to be held against the company itself. I'm just a guy that plays with alot of stuff, and trying to give a little insight on the GUI from my vantage point.

zapco_z8_review - bigredcali's library


----------



## bkjay

Thanks, sweet review!


----------



## Elektra

highspeed said:


> I would send that amp back to Zapco to be checked out. It sounds like it has a problem to me... have you called them?


I did email John as I suspected a problem - but no reply yet! I have a friend who has one too maybe I'll get him to test his for a more accurate opinion. The amp is new so no reason to suspect fowl play? For the sake of the new product line I hope it's just a faulty amp! 

Aren't these amps tested? No birth certificate as well like the old ones... Just because they come from Korea or china does not make it a bad quality product I have tested a far cheaper amp from china that sounds about the best I have heard too date which includes Brax! And it has a very high quality feel and weight with gold plated terminals found on the Brax amps and gold plated pods etc.....


----------



## ACJohn

Elektra said:


> I did email John as I suspected a problem - but no reply yet! I have a friend who has one too maybe I'll get him to test his for a more accurate opinion. The amp is new so no reason to suspect fowl play? For the sake of the new product line I hope it's just a faulty amp!
> 
> Aren't these amps tested? No birth certificate as well like the old ones... Just because they come from Korea or china does not make it a bad quality product I have tested a far cheaper amp from china that sounds about the best I have heard too date which includes Brax! And it has a very high quality feel and weight with gold plated terminals found on the Brax amps and gold plated pods etc.....


Hi Massimo,
Yes, I saw your mail today. Wrote to Mike today but don't know if he has another to try. I'm really sorry you had a bad experience, but I have to talk to a lot of people who are using it to see if we can come up with a logical reason for what you're hearing. 

You could say any number of things that would point to a bad part or an assembly issue, but your issues are mostly the very things other users like about them...especially the clarity and openness in the mids and highs. Yours are the first remarks about colored highs, noise at low gains, screechy sound or even light weight.

Hopefully Mike will have another to swap out if need be.

I will continue to send your mail out and talk to competitors using them here to see if we can come up with anything.

John


----------



## bbfoto

BigRed said:


> here is a short video on the Zapco Z8 processor. Please note that this video was done by me, and any inaccurate statements made by me in regards to the processor and how it works are not to be held against the company itself. I'm just a guy that plays with alot of stuff, and trying to give a little insight on the GUI from my vantage point.
> 
> zapco_z8_review - bigredcali's library


Jim, thanks for the quick overview video of the GUI.  It looks simple enough and I like that you basically have all of the controls, including muting individual channels, all on one screen.

Visually, the GUI looks dated and IMO could have been designed so that it was much easier to read. I also wish the buttons or check boxes were slighty larger, but then again it all fits on one screen. Thanks again for taking the time to do this and post it for us!


----------



## BigRed

The screen is much larger than the video represents I made it smaller to be able to control how large the file is. The buttons and drop downs are quite good for me in terms of being able to read it, especially for my fading eyes


----------



## thehatedguy

I was wondering if you could re-flash the older DC amps as well. But I am guessing you can't.


----------



## pocket5s

BigRed said:


> here is a short video on the Zapco Z8 processor. Please note that this video was done by me, and any inaccurate statements made by me in regards to the processor and how it works are not to be held against the company itself. I'm just a guy that plays with alot of stuff, and trying to give a little insight on the GUI from my vantage point.
> 
> zapco_z8_review - bigredcali's library


I couldn't watch this last night (no flash on iPad  ), so I just saw it. I really like the ability to just type in values in most of those fields is pretty nice. I also like the drop downs. On my BitOne is could get real frustrating trying to drag a slider by a single db or so. Which brings up a question, does the EQ allow any finer control than a single db step?


----------



## darrenforeal

very nice Jim. thanks. I'll stop by your place this week if you're around.


----------



## jstang2003

Anyone willing to post the guts of a Z 400.2 ?


----------



## Jfreak

ACJohn, I emailed the sales department about the Z8R with no reply. I need a master volume control, when do you expect the remote to be available?


----------



## Coppertone

^^^ X2 please...


----------



## Sonus

jstang2003 said:


> Anyone willing to post the guts of a Z 400.2 ?


Does Zapco void the warranty if you open up their amps?

Can't help with z-series, but could post pics of my STDs


----------



## Elektra

Elektra said:


> I did email John as I suspected a problem - but no reply yet! I have a friend who has one too maybe I'll get him to test his for a more accurate opinion. The amp is new so no reason to suspect fowl play? For the sake of the new product line I hope it's just a faulty amp!
> 
> Aren't these amps tested? No birth certificate as well like the old ones... Just because they come from Korea or china does not make it a bad quality product I have tested a far cheaper amp from china that sounds about the best I have heard too date which includes Brax! And it has a very high quality feel and weight with gold plated terminals found on the Brax amps and gold plated pods etc.....


Hi All

A quick follow up on the Z amps. After reading all the reviews posted on this forum I could not help but think - is my Z amp faulty? Was I too quick to post my review? 

So I asked a friend of mine to test his - Z150.4 and 1Kd with Z8. After discussing the setup it was clear that this was his findings:

1) Z150.4 was very bright - used the Z8 to lower the last 3 settings to -1 to compensate
2) 1KD - appeared to under perform with 2 8's
3) voices sounded muffled - could not decifer the words properly (same with mine)

He said he will spend more time on the setup to see if he can get it better. 

My question is at follows:

1) why do the Z amps needs so much time on tuning? Older DC amps was virtually plug and play - bam it sounded good!
2) why are most of the caps in the amp made by Lelon? Rated as a bad cap?
3) why am I the only one here - saying something different?

Conclusion:

Don't sell your old amps - you may never see that quality again!

Needless to say my Z150.6 is gone after testing it for 3 hours and waiting 3 months for it and getting involved in all the hype around a ZAPCO amp that cost half of a C2K and should sound better! My mouth was watering! At the thought! 
A bit of dissapointment!

I assume this forum is about reviews, information and honesty so when I post this I will assume that it will be taken from whence it came from. Good faith!

Cheers


----------



## BigRed

I have 4 Z150.2 and 1 6.5k

I'm sorry you are having a bad experience, but I have had great results with my amps. They sound great and I have had no issues.


----------



## SQHemi

Just finished installing 2 z150.6 + 1 z150.2 in a new competitor car and had absolutely no problems with the amps. No hiss, no pops, no clicks, just great sound. Easy to setup, gain all the way down with 8.2v of input from the processor used. Each channel of the z150 was producing 28.6v before clipping into a 4 ohm load @1k. Didn't test the z150.6's for voltage output but i can say one of the 6 channel amps is bridged to 3 channels each driving a 12" IB sub and it does very very well. Not sure whats happening with your amps but I would be reaching out to John and get some tech support on the issues you are having.


----------



## ACJohn

Jfreak said:


> ACJohn, I emailed the sales department about the Z8R with no reply. I need a master volume control, when do you expect the remote to be available?


I'm sorry for the delays. I understand that they are ready to ship. I am having some send by air, so hopefully I will have them next week.

John


----------



## Jfreak

ACJohn said:


> I'm sorry for the delays. I understand that they are ready to ship. I am having some send by air, so hopefully I will have them next week.
> 
> John


Thanks for the update. Any estimated retail price?


----------



## Coppertone

I'm in need of one when they arrive please.


----------



## darrenforeal

My z150.2s are flawless. Dunno what's going on down there in South Africa :/


----------



## JFMachado

Got model number 25 of the new 2013 DC line. DC 1000.4 and 1100.1 with the zapco team helping me on the build being a local and wanting to test their new product before hitting the shelfs. Being I'm used to the old DC with Cymbilink to power my SX-SL I'm currently stuck being powerless to my eq and zapco itself doesn't even have a spare PSI-SL or PSI-HP laying around. So if anyone happens to have a PSI their willing to part with I'd gladly take it off your hands so I can complete the new DC build. Message me if you can help.

Thank you!


----------



## DeanE10

There is one here...

2 Zapco EQ30's with PSI HPSL Power Supply All Brand New Old Stock Sq Oldschool | eBay


----------



## JFMachado

That's the guy I bought my SX-SL off of he doesn't have another power supply and won't split it up. Thanks for your help though, I appreciate it!


----------



## 6spdcoupe

JFMachado said:


> That's the guy I bought my SX-SL off of he doesn't have another power supply and won't split it up. Thanks for your help though, I appreciate it!


I will dig around a bit, but I believe I have an extra power supply around here if it helps.


----------



## JFMachado

If you do man your a life saver, pm if you have any luck.

Thanks again

John!


----------



## robert_wrath

If all else fails, contact ACJohn at Zapco.


----------



## JFMachado

I live near the zapco facility I was in there yesterday and we found a power supply on line that they can mod. But it's huge bulky and ugly. With this build I want everything matching and done correctly now shortcuts. But thanks for your help.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

JFMachado said:


> If you do man your a life saver, pm if you have any luck.
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> John!


99% sure I do. I can check in a few hours. Trying to get cars done at the moment with a bit of snow flurries coming it.


----------



## JFMachado

Well **** your my hero man. And no worries take your time and good luck lol I pm'ed you my email in case I forget to check this. 

Thanks again 

John


----------



## Richv72

Elektra said:


> Hi All
> 
> A quick follow up on the Z amps. After reading all the reviews posted on this forum I could not help but think - is my Z amp faulty? Was I too quick to post my review?
> 
> So I asked a friend of mine to test his - Z150.4 and 1Kd with Z8. After discussing the setup it was clear that this was his findings:
> 
> 1) Z150.4 was very bright - used the Z8 to lower the last 3 settings to -1 to compensate
> 2) 1KD - appeared to under perform with 2 8's
> 3) voices sounded muffled - could not decifer the words properly (same with mine)
> 
> He said he will spend more time on the setup to see if he can get it better.
> 
> My question is at follows:
> 
> 1) why do the Z amps needs so much time on tuning? Older DC amps was virtually plug and play - bam it sounded good!
> 2) why are most of the caps in the amp made by Lelon? Rated as a bad cap?
> 3) why am I the only one here - saying something different?
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> Don't sell your old amps - you may never see that quality again!
> 
> Needless to say my Z150.6 is gone after testing it for 3 hours and waiting 3 months for it and getting involved in all the hype around a ZAPCO amp that cost half of a C2K and should sound better! My mouth was watering! At the thought!
> A bit of dissapointment!
> 
> I assume this forum is about reviews, information and honesty so when I post this I will assume that it will be taken from whence it came from. Good faith!
> 
> Cheers


Is this the only reviewer that isnt on team zapco?


----------



## weshole

Is the Z-2KD fan cooled?


----------



## Sonus

My DSP-Z8 arrived today 

It looks so good!

Now I need to get to grips with the software.


----------



## cyberdraven

Hi John, would it be possible to give us a link on the new software? Im very much eager to test how it works...., virtually.

Thanks

Paeng


----------



## reno.sa

Sonus said:


> My DSP-Z8 arrived today
> 
> It looks so good!
> 
> Now I need to get to grips with the software.


It's actually very user friendly once you get the hang of it.


----------



## ACJohn

*Re: Zapco - 2KD and DPN*



weshole said:


> Is the Z-2KD fan cooled?


The Z-2KD is not fanned.

The software is an 8meg Zip. Too big for here. Anyone who wants to see it can drop me a note and I'll send it to you. [email protected]

john


----------



## goodstuff

*Re: Zapco - 2KD and DPN*



ACJohn said:


> The Z-2KD is not fanned.
> 
> The software is an 8meg Zip. Too big for here. Anyone who wants to see it can drop me a note and I'll send it to you. [email protected]
> 
> john


Sent you my email. Thank you.


----------



## darrenforeal

Richv72 said:


> Is this the only reviewer that isnt on team zapco?


I am not on Team Zapco. And the 150.2 amps are OUTSTANDING. Dare I say nearly flawless. I have four 150.2s in my BMW, and have four 150.2s and a 2KD + DSP8 in my truck. Haven't finished the truck build yet, but expect a thorough review when I do.


----------



## BigJay2400

AC John ?

Good to see your personally involved in your work. Lots of Zapco fans from all over on this thread. Good to see. 


Hi guys, 

I have a new series zapco ST5 5 channel Amp thats working so good in my car that I have decided to keep it as my primary shop demo car amplifier. 

At our shop, we test play just about every set of speakers we sell for at least a week, so that each of our installers can describe the differences between one speaker over another. But to test a set of speakers, I need to have a good quality amp. I used to use a zapco 360.4 ref and a 750.2 ref as our sound quality test amps. Those were some good amps. The new zapco is right there.

The quality is perfect to test out all the various speakers at our shop. It would only be fair to give a new speaker a high quality test with a high quality amp.

Next week i am installing some diamond audio components and the ST5 Zapco should give the speakers a good workout. Cant wait to see what happens.


----------



## Sonus

BigJay2400 - is that the ST-X or ST-D 5 channel amp?


----------



## Sonus

ACJohn - any guestimate on pricing for the dash remote?


----------



## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> I am not on Team Zapco. And the 150.2 amps are OUTSTANDING. Dare I say nearly flawless. I have four 150.2s in my BMW, and have four 150.2s and a 2KD + DSP8 in my truck. Haven't finished the truck build yet, but expect a thorough review when I do.


Well I don't know what "outstanding" is to your ears as everyone has a different concept of SQ. To me i would sacrifice accurate sound stage for tonally correct sound. 

I have owned brands like Brax (GE), Helix (competition), DLS (A7), EOS, Soundstream (MC300, Rubicons etc), ZAPCO (Studio, DC) and let me tell you that all of the above are better sounding than the new Z amp. 

All of the above is way better! sorry folks!

I love my ZAPCO's won't sell them!

SQ nuts here did a blind test on a very high end KRELL and Dynaudio home system - the test was between a BRAX SPL amp and a DC650.6 each amp was level matched exactly and everyone picked the DC amp! 

I doubt the new Z amp would be chosen over the DC amp! I'll bet money on it!

Careful not to back a product over reputation only! Don't get me wrong I for one wish that the new stuff was better than the old - who wouldn't? Half the price! Our hobby would be cheaper with less fights with the Boss (wife)


----------



## pocket5s

Elektra said:


> To me i would sacrifice accurate sound stage for tonally correct sound.


That seems like an installation and tuning tradeoff instead of an amplifier tradeoff.


----------



## Elektra

It's a hyperthetical prognosis - most of us can get a good soundstage. But if you had to choose will it be warm accurate sound that does not fatigue or would you want a proper stage but the car does not sound tonally right any way you try? So smooth as butter or accurate but harsh essentially?


----------



## pocket5s

Elektra said:


> It's a hyperthetical prognosis - most of us can get a good soundstage. But if you had to choose will it be warm accurate sound that does not fatigue or would you want a proper stage but the car does not sound tonally right any way you try? So smooth as butter or accurate but harsh essentially?


That seems like an installation, driver and tuning tradeoff instead of an amplifier tradeoff.


----------



## Richv72

Pockets if he only swtched out the amplifier then it sounds like an amplifier issue. Can you name one american amplifier company that moved its production to korea and actually sounded better?. Cheaper to make and buy? yes. Better sounding? no way.


----------



## subwoofery

Elektra said:


> It's a hyperthetical prognosis - most of us can get a good soundstage. But if you had to choose will it be warm accurate sound that does not fatigue or would you want a proper stage but the car does not sound tonally right any way you try? So smooth as butter or accurate but harsh essentially?


Tonally correct is warm - *wrong* - the recording calls for a warm sound 
Tonally correct is accurate - *correct* 
Tonally correct is not fatiguing - *correct* 
Tonally correct is smooth as butter - *wrong* - actually a tonally correct system should portrait a dynamic soundstage, have zippy highs when needed, make you flinch when drums hits, bite you with snares, etc... 

Changing only the amps made your sound dull, it could be a faulty amp. 
But I tend to agree that it's mostly a tuning issue...

Kelvin


----------



## Elektra

Richv72 said:


> Pockets if he only swtched out the amplifier then it sounds like an amplifier issue. Can you name one american amplifier company that moved its production to korea and actually sounded better?. Cheaper to make and buy? yes. Better sounding? no way.


You do get good products in China - but sometimes the reason to manufacture in China is to make cheap products that's different to making a top product at a cheaper price - good example would be Ground Zero Reference amps made in China! At about $500 an amp - see the retail of that amp!

Point is that you get good and cheap products in China it depends on the company requesting the build - sometimes if a better quality amp costs $10 more to make they don't go for it to keep costs down!

But in this case I would have to agree with you! My suggestion is demo the cars before purchase and make sure of your investment! If you were a previous Zapco owner you will have a good basis to compare the products and make an informed decision


----------



## Elektra

subwoofery said:


> Tonally correct is warm - *wrong* - the recording calls for a warm sound
> Tonally correct is accurate - *correct*
> Tonally correct is not fatiguing - *correct*
> Tonally correct is smooth as butter - wrong - actually a tonally correct system should portrait a dynamic soundstage, have zippy highs when needed, make you flinch when drums hits, bite you with snares, etc...
> 
> Changing only the amps made your sound dull, it could be a faulty amp.
> But I tend to agree that it's mostly a tuning issue...
> 
> Kelvin


Changing my amps made my ears hurt! That's not a good thing! I don't think the amp was faulty! As more than one was tried - let me put it to you this way- my Dynaudio tweeters sounded like titanium tweeters and my Esotar midrange sounded like cheap pioneer speakers that's the only way I can put it - nothing to do with tuning and setup!

Can't make poop smell better... If you know what I mean! 

Hey everyone for themselves ... I'll gladly look at purchasing anyone's C2K amps or if anyone has STUDIO 500's or Z600's - it's of the opinion of many that the new amps are better so then you guys have no need to keep lesser stock!

Let me know what you guys have...


----------



## cyberdraven

I was quite fortunate to play with the new Zapco DPN Software. Thanks John!

The new software looks very much similar from the old one but with some refinements.










EQ Portion:
1. The levels was reduced from previous model (-18 db to +18db) to the new one (-15 db to +15 db). Personally, no issue here since i seldom go that far.
2. The Q levels was improved from 1 - 6 to 1 - 10. Increments of 0.5 remains the same.
3. The Frequency band remains the same. Still powerfull and allows customization at 1 hz increment. You could key-in the exact frequency you wanted to boost or cut!










Crossover network:
1. No changes in frequency. Same old goodies. you could still key-in the exact frequency you wanted.
2. Major change is the slope. The new one already caters up to 36 db/oct. The previous one only plays up to 24db/oct.










Phase:
This is one of my fave refinements! The old one only caters 0 or 180 degrees phase shift. The new one allows phase shift at 15 degrees increment! No need to crave for the Sinfoni Phaser Pro folks, this one can give you enough leverage to play with phase.










Time Delay:
The old model has TA increment of 0.1 ms. The new one is more refined at 0.01 ms increment! You could now key-in a delay of 1.12ms or 1.15ms! Love it as this is one of my wishes just like that of the BitOne.










Now, all i need is a new amp to try it side by side with my old and reliable one. hehehe. Hmmmm....., might be a good idea to try if the new software works with the old one. hehehe.

Thanks

Paeng


----------



## Slick

Think I have a PSI if needed....two SX-SL also...


----------



## jstang2003

still hoping someone can post gut pics of a Z400.2 
I know it's a lot to ask


----------



## BigJay2400

Sonus said:


> BigJay2400 - is that the ST-X or ST-D 5 channel amp?


its the ST5-D. the size of the amp, overall SQ, Price to consumer all adds up to Value.

At the end of the day, most people dont have unlimited cash to burn. This amp gives joe average a chance to get their hands on a good quality amp at a price thats do-able.

Really, a best buy alpine highs amp is 150 to 200. Bass amp is about the same. the ST5-d will go to a customer for under 5 bills. not so bad for a high quality amp.


----------



## darrenforeal

Elektra said:


> Changing my amps made my ears hurt! That's not a good thing! I don't think the amp was faulty! As more than one was tried - let me put it to you this way- my Dynaudio tweeters sounded like titanium tweeters and my Esotar midrange sounded like cheap pioneer speakers that's the only way I can put it - nothing to do with tuning and setup!
> 
> Can't make poop smell better... If you know what I mean!
> 
> Hey everyone for themselves ... I'll gladly look at purchasing anyone's C2K amps or if anyone has STUDIO 500's or Z600's - it's of the opinion of many that the new amps are better so then you guys have no need to keep lesser stock!
> 
> Let me know what you guys have...


I have a Zapco Ref. 750.2, 350.2, and had a DC 300.4 and a DC 1000.4. I now have Z150.2s. The new Z150.2s sound better. Period. So I dunno what the deal is with yours or your setup. So for you to say you can't make poop sound better sounds ridiculous. 

Did you retune for new amps?? If you just swapped them in with the same tune then, yeah maybe they don't sound right to your taste. But, i'd take another look at the tune or have someone else do it before you say they sound like poop. But, hey, maybe the 150.6 sounds completely different than the z150.2s. Have you tried other Z series before you bad mouth the whole product line? 

Bottom line these 150.2s sound better than my TRU Super Billet 6, my old zapcos, and my old Arc KS and SEs. Others who have heard the change in my system agree. It is more dynamic now and has more detailed non-fatiguing highs.


----------



## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> I have a Zapco Ref. 750.2, 350.2, and had a DC 300.4 and a DC 1000.4. I now have Z150.2s. The new Z150.2s sound better. Period. So I dunno what the deal is with yours or your setup. So for you to say you can't make poop sound better sounds ridiculous.
> 
> Did you retune for new amps?? If you just swapped them in with the same tune then, yeah maybe they don't sound right to your taste. But, i'd take another look at the tune or have someone else do it before you say they sound like poop. But, hey, maybe the 150.6 sounds completely different than the z150.2s. Have you tried other Z series before you bad mouth the whole product line?
> 
> Bottom line these 150.2s sound better than my TRU Super Billet 6, my old zapcos, and my old Arc KS and SEs. Others who have heard the change in my system agree. It is more dynamic now and has more detailed non-fatiguing highs.


It's not inconceivable that the 150.2 sounds better than the 150.6! But really their was a night and day difference in SQ between the DC360.4 and the 150.6 - I would never had returned the amp if it was great! I swopped the 150.6 for a 4 channel EOS amp with a 2 channel EOS - 4x110 + 2x180 these amp sell for nothing and only tested them because I saw the board on the 4 channel which had Mundorf caps so I saw no harm in testing it.

Truth is the EOS sounded better in every respect - at $400 it's a bargain - I emailed EOS this was there reply :-

Hallo! How are You? Hope everything' going great!

Regarding amplifiers... Of course AE-980 LE better than BF980G! Firstly, we installed MOTOROLLA output transistors. 
Secondly, not only MUNDORF capacitors, but REL (USA) capacitors installed there also. Thirdly, we install only OPA LME 49720 by NATIONAL SEMICODUCTOR (USA). In a Feedback we insralled Silmic II. On the front channels 2 different Gains. All filters can be disconnected! 
4х110W (4 Om), 4x185W (2 Om), 1x370W THD 0,04% (1000Hz), S/N >105db
Aleksey Gusel'nikov will go to EMMA-Europe and he can take it with him (to show it to You)).


Thank You!
Wish You a great day, great weekend

Bear in mind mine is the "lesser" amp - BF980G - (the above is the newer one!

Even the rep who sat in my car when testing had a face that said it all - especially on a live recording of Paul Simon's Sounds of Silence which had a part when the crowd screamed and with the DC amp it was high but still pleasant with the 150.6 the screams actually made you move backwards as the sound just was too ear piercing! On a Cranberries track I honestly could not decifer the voice properly - ( this was still the case after a retune later) 

To be honest I can't understand how the older amps which were overbuilt and built in times when the goal was to build the best - comparing it to an amp that is not overbuilt - built with the bare essentials with cost savings as a primary goal! How can you even compare? Not like technology has moved on or anything!

Are you selling any or your amps?


----------



## Richv72

darrenforeal said:


> I am not on Team Zapco. And the 150.2 amps are OUTSTANDING. Dare I say nearly flawless. I have four 150.2s in my BMW, and have four 150.2s and a 2KD + DSP8 in my truck. Haven't finished the truck build yet, but expect a thorough review when I do.


So you bought 9 new zapco amps? Who does that if they arent either getting a discount or have a vested interest in the product. Im taking your review with a grain of salt.


----------



## darrenforeal

Richv72 said:


> So you bought 9 new zapco amps? Who does that if they arent either getting a discount or have a vested interest in the product. Im taking your review with a grain of salt.


Lol. That's your prerogative. I have two cars, thus the number of amps. I wouldn't give something a positive review if I didn't mean what I said. But I don't expect you to take my word for it, after all my moto is question everything.


----------



## 12v Electronics

darrenforeal said:


> my moto is question everything.


Yeah, especially members who sign up here to only post in this thread.


----------



## rgiorgio

I have owned 7 of the them. Different ones for different cars.

Why? Because they are great amps. 

Just put the Z-150.6 i n latest install as a result of how happy i have been with product, service and response.


----------



## Elektra

Richv72 said:


> So you bought 9 new zapco amps? Who does that if they arent either getting a discount or have a vested interest in the product. Im taking your review with a grain of salt.


I think on this forum a bit of biaseness is apparent - the new amps are still new so the world market has not reviewed this product! No doubt they will cos its a Zapco product! 

Reviews are meaningless like mine and others - you want an unbiased review and maybe that must be yourself as you have to live with the product and spend the cash on it! 

I don't compete at all I hate people looking into my car! I have some of the most expensive equipment in this country the value of which supersedes the value of my car 4 fold!

I spent the cash not to show off as not many know what I have but because I love music - ill look at any product that I can say is good or better than what I have now - I am always looking to improve! 

The ZAPCO's were supposed to be it mostly due to reputation and value the Z amp represents a saving on the C2K! 

This didn't happen for me! Honestly a waste of money! Clearly a case of reputation selling a product! 

I mean the C2K had a 4 ounce board! The loss of symbilink in my opinion is a loss for Zapco - made a difference in my car - the difference in a 4v deck to a 5v is huge! 4v to 8v via symbilink? 

Come guys!


----------



## thehatedguy

Got a link for E.O.S.? Only saw one place selling them on the web.


----------



## Elektra

thehatedguy said:


> Got a link for E.O.S.? Only saw one place selling them on the web.


All in Russian - so no reviews that anyone can understand - me personally i have never heard of the brand until i tested one of them - for me to be reluctant to re-install the Brax amp tells you something! One never expects such a cheap amp to sound so good! A real surprise! But with Mundorf and ELNA caps and a decent heat sink and RCA inputs the amp should be good! - Go to Pit: Progressive Innovative Technology - you will have to use google translate to understand it... I would like to find out more about the tube amps....

But this is a zapco thread so I don't want to mess with anyone - EOS was an example of a cheap amp made in China that sounds impressive for the price - the tube amp should cost about the same as a 150.6 for example! 

Nowadays what's not made in China? So I think China has stepped up their quality and design - you do get clever Chinese people building high end products! Most of the time it designed in the USA by made in China! (usually small print) 

Look at Rockford Fosgate - literally off the shelf Chinese made just different dust covers to cheaper no name brands but RF sells its products at a premium - a very good example of brilliant advertisement! 

Over here RF does not allow its dealers to sell anything but RF and Ligtning Audio - and they will tell you that their products are the best in the world - they tell so many people that they actually start to believe it! 

Cheers


----------



## thehatedguy

One is a hybrid tube amp and the other is a hybrid crossover.

But yeah, don't want to veer too far off.


----------



## Elektra

thehatedguy said:


> One is a hybrid tube amp and the other is a hybrid crossover.
> 
> But yeah, don't want to veer too far off.


Correct!

I would like to hear other people's opinions on Zapco products - I didn't enter into this forum if I wasn't a believer! Besides zapco is such a niche product here when the audio scene is dominated by JL and DLS it would be great to see zapco back on top again! 

I owned a studio 300 all banged up and tested it against a Helix A2 and level matched each amp on a set of Morel Supremo 6's and the zapco sounded warmer sounded like it had more headroom than the 150x2 rated output - Helix sounded clearer but a little brighter at the top it sounded like it was running out of gas at the 150x2 rated output as the tops were sounding a bit stressed - if I had to choose an amp to listen all day too - it would be the Studio 300!

Big fan of those amps!

Does anyone else have any of those amps? How did they compare to the C2K and older Z range? Would love to get hold of some of those amps!

Cheers


----------



## aj1735

I have a new zapco zx200.4 and z150.4. I really like the way they sound. Here are some of the other ones that I have used in the vehicle. 
JL 300/4
JL 450/4
JL 500/1
JL 1000/1
Zapco 1100m 
Xtant 604x 
Pioneer 4 channel prs forgot model number 

I think these sound much better than all of the previous amps that I have tried. I don't know all the technical terms and the exact details why, but much better. A couple of the others seamed to bright and and seemed underpowered compared to what they were supposed to be pushing. Just fyi I am using a p99rs source and audison voce 3 way fronts active and 2 JL 8w3v3's for now until I get my box built for my morel ultimo 12. 

Plus I have had stellar customer service with zapco and couldn't ask for it to be any better. 

Just my two cents. Lol


----------



## Elektra

aj1735 said:


> I have a new zapco zx200.4 and z150.4. I really like the way they sound. Here are some of the other ones that I have used in the vehicle.
> JL 300/4
> JL 450/4
> JL 500/1
> JL 1000/1
> Zapco 1100m
> Xtant 604x
> Pioneer 4 channel prs forgot model number
> 
> I think these sound much better than all of the previous amps that I have tried. I don't know all the technical terms and the exact details why, but much better. A couple of the others seamed to bright and and seemed underpowered compared to what they were supposed to be pushing. Just fyi I am using a p99rs source and audison voce 3 way fronts active and 2 JL 8w3v3's for now until I get my box built for my morel ultimo 12.
> 
> Plus I have had stellar customer service with zapco and couldn't ask for it to be any better.
> 
> Just my two cents. Lol


Yeah. John is a credit to Zapco! Gave me excellent service! well done John!

Never heard the JL amps! Glad you like the new amps - I am going to wait for the zapco agents here to built a show car and re listen then - I think he is going to use DC and not Z - I will wait and see!

Some of the better installers will start to get the zapco products so we will wait for their input! 

If I have time I will try and setup a test car and use a few products to compare! Let you guys know what I find when I do it!

Cheers


----------



## ACJohn

*Massimo/Elektra...This is a little much...*

Sorry about the length here, but...

Massimo, I don't know what happened between Manteca and So Africa, but I have no explanation for your disappointment. And believe me I have looked! As soon as you complained to me (and before you posted that vitriolic review) I sent your mail out to the folks who helped with the listening tests we did while designing these amps. I've spoken to almost everyone who's bought them and used them. So far, in all the world, it is only you that has been disappointed. 

These amps are the first run and yes, there are some things I plan to improve. a.) I think we can improve the internal voltage regulation of the Z/ZX to lessen the likelihood for any DC off-set and increase the signal to noise. b.) We have had reports of occasional turn-on or turn-off tic. This can may off-set related, but in any case, we will be modifying the soft-start/mute system to absolutely prevent that. And I will find more things. I listen to team members, to dealers, and to any consumer who wants to reach out to me. My plan is to improve the product with every run.

But what do these issues have to do with the basic sound quality of the current product, while playing music? NOTHING. 

One competitor switched from a major brand to the Z-150.4 and got their highest score ever in the very next show and then took first in regionals and then 3rd in Modex at Nationals. Only to be beaten by 2 other Zapcos (one running Z-400.2s) 

I just left AutoRama in CA. New Z installs took 1st SQ Modex MECA and also 1st in Class IASCA. An Extreme car amid rebuild still took 2nd, with the highest SQ score it has ever received, with it's new Z's. 

The top SQ car in the Caribbean recently switched to the Z-150.6. He has mids and highs in the pillar and occasionally gets an on/off noise. Since he is in competition and can't afford ANY on/off tic, he built an elaborate outboard timing system to prevent any noises. He was willing to do that _because _of the sound quality of the Z-150.6 amps.

These amps have been critically reviewed for sound by distributors before they were ordered in Germany, Russia, Indonesia, Hong Kong, Peru, and other places around the world.

For you to insist the amps sound "like poop" is a little much for me to just stand here and let slide. You Like EOS? Cool, buy EOS. 

Anybody who want's more info on EOS can Google it. You'll find it in Russia and Google will translate it. "Relatively expensive thing on the little-known manufacturer. Average quality, at your budget does not pull." Again, that's one mag, one reviewer, one model. You'll find plenty of customer reviews from guys who like 'em also.

The China thing? That's getting a little old. "What's not made in China?" you ask? Zapco for one. Does it matter? NO! China is just a word that people through around 'cause they think they can cast aspersions on a brand by associating it with China. It's time to stop. The quality is determined by the guy having it built...not but the location of the factory.

"To be honest I can't understand how the older amps which were overbuilt and built in times when the goal was to build the best - comparing it to an amp that is not overbuilt - built with the bare essentials with cost savings as a primary goal! How can you even compare? Not like technology has moved on or anything!" WOW! You're going to preface that with_ "To be honest"_? You should have used "In my opinion" a couple of times. You are offering 2 false conclusions based an a false statement supported only by a completely a priory assumption:
a. Never say "to be honest". It calls into question everything else you've ever said. b. Cost savings was _not_ a goal in the design of the product. It was a goal in the location of the production line. c. Bare essentials? I have only begun. The less circuitry in the signal path the better. Ideally, straight line with gain. d. The new amps have better op-amps, better caps, and they have better output devices. That's not saving me any money, my friend. e. Technology has indeed moved on Massimo. The trick is knowing what to adapt and what to let pass.

Then there is your assumption that the old Zapco were designed to be the best and the new are designed to be cheap. That one I definitely take offense to. I was here for the old and I'm here for the new. I was the drive behind Reference, C2K and iForce. The DC Reference that you like so much was mine from start to finish. The DSP-6 GUI was mine. I asked to come back to Zapco to make something cheap. My charge was to make the best sounding amplifier we have ever offered and I believe we've succeeded. On top of that we have a great sounding Class D, a vastly improved DC and we'll have an awesome entry level line.

If you don't like the sound of the product, I'm sorry. I truly am. We've been talking for about a year now and I really thought you'd like new stuff, but if you don't, you don't. It's been noted that you signed up on the forum only to complain in this thread. I'd prefer the think that wasn't true, but it is a public forum. If you think EOS is a better value then buy EOS. 

But please do not call my integrity or Zapco's into question by insinuating that I am cheapening the brand, just because you personally don't like the sound.

John


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: Massimo/Elektra...This is a little much...*

Well...........WOW! 

Just read all pages (jesus!) 

Congrats John....
You just sold some amps!

I love how youve handled everything on here. I have a ton of respect and appreciation for the manufacturer reps that offer there wisdom and product knowledge etc on here! I also greatly understand and like your approach!

I'm building a demo vehicle for a company that I am Representing in New England (actually started a firm and will be representing a few others 
The company is still waiting on amp production and the others dont have amps I would be interested in running in my setup. I wanted something of quality and not at every street corner in America (but it could be if you gave me the account j/k 
I really cant likely fit them but I am going to make special arrangements in my build just for the new Z's. 
and likely the 8 processor too!

So.....where would one go in my neck of the woods to look, hear, and purchase? If no where......we should talk 

N.E.A.R. (New England Audiophile Representatives) website coming soon!


----------



## Coppertone

I for one am enjoying what AC John has brought to the table. Just as stated it is one persons opinion as this is just mine. Any one who is so passionant about their product, yet intelligent enough to explain the reasoning behind it, is a company that I would strongly consider placing their product in my build. I currently run a Z8 in my car and am very impressed by what I've seen. Now as far as amps I am set on this car but if I were to do another car, Zapco would be my number one choice for it.


----------



## DeanE10

Thanks John! I have always said you were one of the best inside guys I have ever worked with, and once again you have proven this case perfectly.


----------



## rgiorgio

Way to go John. I have owned Zapco products for the past 10 years. Love them all.

If the 12volt consumer was willing to pay for the best of the best, Zapco would still be making the C2K's. I think they did a fine job with the product they are offering at the price point they are offering it for.

I dont believe the Z series was ever intended to be identical to the C2K's for less money. Not possible. I believe the Z series amps were designed to bring a product to the table that is worthy of the Zapco name, at a price point more consumers can afford. I believe they have accomplished this and will prosper for it.


----------



## Richv72

rgiorgio said:


> Way to go John. I have owned Zapco products for the past 10 years. Love them all.
> 
> If the 12volt consumer was willing to pay for the best of the best, Zapco would still be making the C2K's. I think they did a fine job with the product they are offering at the price point they are offering it for.
> 
> I dont believe the Z series was ever intended to be identical to the C2K's for less money. Not possible. I believe the Z series amps were designed to bring a product to the table that is worthy of the Zapco name, at a price point more consumers can afford. I believe they have accomplished this and will prosper for it.


I agree with you, they are the best amplifiers in the price range, period. I forgot about the difference in price from the older stuff, my bad.


----------



## Elektra

*Re: Massimo/Elektra...This is a little much...*



Elektra said:


> Yeah. John is a credit to Zapco! Gave me excellent service! well done John!
> 
> Never heard the JL amps! Glad you like the new amps - I am going to wait for the zapco agents here to built a show car and re listen then - I think he is going to use DC and not Z - I will wait and see!
> 
> Some of the better installers will start to get the zapco products so we will wait for their input!
> 
> If I have time I will try and setup a test car and use a few products to compare! Let you guys know what I find when I do it!
> 
> Cheers





ACJohn said:


> Sorry about the length here, but...
> 
> Massimo, I don't know what happened between Manteca and So Africa, but I have no explanation for your disappointment. And believe me I have looked! As soon as you complained to me (and before you posted that vitriolic review) I sent your mail out to the folks who helped with the listening tests we did while designing these amps. I've spoken to almost everyone who's bought them and used them. So far, in all the world, it is only you that has been disappointed.
> 
> These amps are the first run and yes, there are some things I plan to improve. a.) I think we can improve the internal voltage regulation of the Z/ZX to lessen the likelihood for any DC off-set and increase the signal to noise. b.) We have had reports of occasional turn-on or turn-off tic. This can may off-set related, but in any case, we will be modifying the soft-start/mute system to absolutely prevent that. And I will find more things. I listen to team members, to dealers, and to any consumer who wants to reach out to me. My plan is to improve the product with every run.
> 
> But what do these issues have to do with the basic sound quality of the current product, while playing music? NOTHING.
> 
> One competitor switched from a major brand to the Z-150.4 and got their highest score ever in the very next show and then took first in regionals and then 3rd in Modex at Nationals. Only to be beaten by 2 other Zapcos (one running Z-400.2s)
> 
> I just left AutoRama in CA. New Z installs took 1st SQ Modex MECA and also 1st in Class IASCA. An Extreme car amid rebuild still took 2nd, with the highest SQ score it has ever received, with it's new Z's.
> 
> The top SQ car in the Caribbean recently switched to the Z-150.6. He has mids and highs in the pillar and occasionally gets an on/off noise. Since he is in competition and can't afford ANY on/off tic, he built an elaborate outboard timing system to prevent any noises. He was willing to do that _because _of the sound quality of the Z-150.6 amps.
> 
> These amps have been critically reviewed for sound by distributors before they were ordered in Germany, Russia, Indonesia, Hong Kong, Peru, and other places around the world.
> 
> For you to insist the amps sound "like poop" is a little much for me to just stand here and let slide. You Like EOS? Cool, buy EOS.
> 
> Anybody who want's more info on EOS can Google it. You'll find it in Russia and Google will translate it. "Relatively expensive thing on the little-known manufacturer. Average quality, at your budget does not pull." Again, that's one mag, one reviewer, one model. You'll find plenty of customer reviews from guys who like 'em also.
> 
> The China thing? That's getting a little old. "What's not made in China?" you ask? Zapco for one. Does it matter? NO! China is just a word that people through around 'cause they think they can cast aspersions on a brand by associating it with China. It's time to stop. The quality is determined by the guy having it built...not but the location of the factory.
> 
> "To be honest I can't understand how the older amps which were overbuilt and built in times when the goal was to build the best - comparing it to an amp that is not overbuilt - built with the bare essentials with cost savings as a primary goal! How can you even compare? Not like technology has moved on or anything!" WOW! You're going to preface that with_ "To be honest"_? You should have used "In my opinion" a couple of times. You are offering 2 false conclusions based an a false statement supported only by a completely a priory assumption:
> a. Never say "to be honest". It calls into question everything else you've ever said. b. Cost savings was _not_ a goal in the design of the product. It was a goal in the location of the production line. c. Bare essentials? I have only begun. The less circuitry in the signal path the better. Ideally, straight line with gain. d. The new amps have better op-amps, better caps, and they have better output devices. That's not saving me any money, my friend. e. Technology has indeed moved on Massimo. The trick is knowing what to adapt and what to let pass.
> 
> Then there is your assumption that the old Zapco were designed to be the best and the new are designed to be cheap. That one I definitely take offense to. I was here for the old and I'm here for the new. I was the drive behind Reference, C2K and iForce. The DC Reference that you like so much was mine from start to finish. The DSP-6 GUI was mine. I asked to come back to Zapco to make something cheap. My charge was to make the best sounding amplifier we have ever offered and I believe we've succeeded. On top of that we have a great sounding Class D, a vastly improved DC and we'll have an awesome entry level line.
> 
> If you don't like the sound of the product, I'm sorry. I truly am. We've been talking for about a year now and I really thought you'd like new stuff, but if you don't, you don't. It's been noted that you signed up on the forum only to complain in this thread. I'd prefer the think that wasn't true, but it is a public forum. If you think EOS is a better value then buy EOS.
> 
> But please do not call my integrity or Zapco's into question by insinuating that I am cheapening the brand, just because you personally don't like the sound.
> 
> 
> John


Wow like the other guy said...!

John - let's settle this .... I gave an unbiased review of the Z150.6 and I am sorry if it didn't conform to others.

I may have had a dud... Not impossible!

So my challenge to you John is this - send me a Z150.2 (the one one you like) test it at your facilities to ensure proper operation. Send it to me and I'll test it again against what I have. 

Send me a C2K amp of similar 4ohm rating I think a 9.0? To establish a reference for the DC amp I have already. Unfortunately I dont have a DC1000.4 nor do it know anyone has one - so a DC360.4 will have to do! 

All test amps will be level matched exactly and be blind tested with a few audio personalities over here.

The Amps can be used and abused - heck if a truck rode over them it matters not - as long as they operate to manufactures specs. 

If the amp performs the way you say I'll buy 5 of them! I'll also buy the C2K amp as well and I'll pay for the shipping if I am wrong!

So let's see if your willing to put your money where your mouth is! ... So they say!

Look forward to the challenge - I am sure others will too!

Cheers


----------



## nepl29

SMH


----------



## Sonus

Elektra,

First of all you did not post an unbiased review. For it to e unbiased you'd need to have no previous knowledge about either Zapco or their products IMO. I believe you also stated that you do not compete as you do not do this for anyone else than yourself. Did you not get a refund on the amp and your out of pocket for the price? 

Second; What is your exact set up in your car?

Third; How can an amp swap make things sound harsh? I thought harshness was down to frequency response ( I might e wrong here)?

Fourth; You being an "unknown" on this forum makes it harder for me at least to take your post as gospel as I would if you'd shown a little bit more of your knowledge on this forum.

Fifth; Your comments towards china and cheapness and zapco isn't really helping your case here IMO. You can get great stuff made in China, Ulanbator, London, Taiwan, Korea, where ever as long as you as a paying customer have the knowledge to do both engineering and Quality Controll.

I myself bought 3 Zapco d-class amps and the processor. The processor I bought to be able to tune it to my liking as I am, like you, not very interested in what others think of my system as long as it pleases me 

I hope you find amps that suits your taste


----------



## Elektra

Sonus said:


> Elektra,
> 
> First of all you did not post an unbiased review. For it to e unbiased you'd need to have no previous knowledge about either Zapco or their products IMO. I believe you also stated that you do not compete as you do not do this for anyone else than yourself. Did you not get a refund on the amp and your out of pocket for the price?
> 
> Second; What is your exact set up in your car?
> 
> Third; How can an amp swap make things sound harsh? I thought harshness was down to frequency response ( I might e wrong here)?
> 
> Fourth; You being an "unknown" on this forum makes it harder for me at least to take your post as gospel as I would if you'd shown a little bit more of your knowledge on this forum.
> 
> Fifth; Your comments towards china and cheapness and zapco isn't really helping your case here IMO. You can get great stuff made in China, Ulanbator, London, Taiwan, Korea, where ever as long as you as a paying customer have the knowledge to do both engineering and Quality Controll.
> 
> I myself bought 3 Zapco d-class amps and the processor. The processor I bought to be able to tune it to my liking as I am, like you, not very interested in what others think of my system as long as it pleases me
> 
> I hope you find amps that suits your taste


Hi There

My setup....

1) Alpine PXA H900
2) CDA 7998R with optical
3) Dynaudio Esotar E430
4) Dynaudio 4.5" home tweeter T-380MH
5) Morel Ultimo 12
6) Brax Graphic Pro 6.5" woofer
7) Brax Platinum 6 channel (X2400GE and X2000GE)
8) Brax X2000 normal
9) Audioquest King Cobra RCA's

Average setup...

I swopped the amp out for something else - don't think I got stiffed on the transaction - on the contery I scored 2 amps in exchange! So no I don't feel out of pocket - truthfully!

My review was unbiased..! I called a spade a spade with reference to the previous DC amp 

Could be components that cause harshness - I am no amp expert!

True who am I? Just someone who purchased a Z amp! 

Read my posts - I did not bash Chinese products...

You don't need to be a competitor to be believed as we all know a poorer sounding car will beat a car that sounds better but has a poor install!

Cheers


----------



## BigRed

Elektra said:


> Hi There
> 
> My setup....
> 
> 1) Alpine PXA H900
> 2) CDA 7998R with optical
> 3) Dynaudio Esotar E430
> 4) Dynaudio 4.5" home tweeter T-380MH
> 5) Morel Ultimo 12
> 6) Brax Graphic Pro 6.5" woofer
> 7) Brax Platinum 6 channel (X2400GE and X2000GE)
> 8) Brax X2000 normal
> 9) Audioquest King Cobra RCA's
> 
> Average setup...
> 
> I swopped the amp out for something else - don't think I got stiffed on the transaction - on the contery I scored 2 amps in exchange! So no I don't feel out of pocket - truthfully!
> 
> My review was unbiased..! I called a spade a spade with reference to the previous DC amp
> 
> Could be components that cause harshness - I am no amp expert!
> 
> True who am I? Just someone who purchased a Z amp!
> 
> Read my posts - I did not bash Chinese products...
> 
> You don't need to be a competitor to be believed as we all know a poorer sounding car will beat a car that sounds better but has a poor install!
> 
> Cheers


How does a poorer sounding car in an sq only format beat a car that sounds better? I think you've been listening to Paul Simon way too much


----------



## Elektra

BigRed said:


> How does a poorer sounding car in an sq only format beat a car that sounds better? I think you've been listening to Paul Simon way too much


LOL...!

Don't know if you guys have the same format of competition - but the car is judged as a whole so install and SQ. 

Just repeating what was told to be by some judges in our IASCA circuit - I think its EMMA now...

I am guessing your a Celine Dion man?.... LOL!


----------



## Elektra

Elektra said:


> Hi There
> 
> My setup....
> 
> 1) Alpine PXA H900
> 2) CDA 7998R with optical
> 3) Dynaudio Esotar E430
> 4) Dynaudio 4.5" home tweeter T-380MH
> 5) Morel Ultimo 12
> 6) Brax Graphic Pro 6.5" woofer
> 7) Brax Platinum 6 channel (X2400GE and X2000GE)
> 8) Brax X2000 normal
> 9) Audioquest King Cobra RCA's
> 
> Average setup...
> 
> I swopped the amp out for something else - don't think I got stiffed on the transaction - on the contery I scored 2 amps in exchange! So no I don't feel out of pocket - truthfully!
> 
> My review was unbiased..! I called a spade a spade with reference to the previous DC amp
> 
> Could be components that cause harshness - I am no amp expert!
> 
> True who am I? Just someone who purchased a Z amp!
> 
> Read my posts - I did not bash Chinese products...
> 
> You don't need to be a competitor to be believed as we all know a poorer sounding car will beat a car that sounds better but has a poor install!
> 
> Cheers


I don't expect Zapco to pay for anything that's why I suggested 2nd hand units that would be returned at my cost! So ZAPCO's exposure financially would be nil! 

Any rate I thought this forum would be great to find out more about the products - good or bad!

It seems that anything but great reviews would not do here - even if I was a well known competitor or judge here! 

I do like the product - not the new ones - that's my choice but it seems the Team Zapco boys don't like it! 

I think some members here are taking it a little too seriously!

So to make everyone happy I have revised my review-

The new Z amps are the best amps in world - bar none! They make my $5000 Brax sound like a flea market special! 

Why pay $5000 when you can get better at $1000! I think I have learnt something! ..... Keep your opinions to yourself! And just say whatever everyone wants you to say... 

If my input would be more valued if I have more posts the I can post things like - LOL 200 times and then my posts will be 214!

Cheers


----------



## rexroadj

Elektra said:


> I don't expect Zapco to pay for anything that's why I suggested 2nd hand units that would be returned at my cost! So ZAPCO's exposure financially would be nil!
> 
> Any rate I thought this forum would be great to find out more about the products - good or bad!
> 
> It seems that anything but great reviews would not do here - even if I was a well known competitor or judge here!
> 
> I do like the product - not the new ones - that's my choice but it seems the Team Zapco boys don't like it!
> 
> I think some members here are taking it a little too seriously!
> 
> So to make everyone happy I have revised my review-
> 
> The new Z amps are the best amps in world - bar none! They make my $5000 Brax sound like a flea market special!
> 
> Why pay $5000 when you can get better at $1000! I think I have learnt something! ..... Keep your opinions to yourself! And just say whatever everyone wants you to say...
> 
> If my input would be more valued if I have more posts the I can post things like - LOL 200 times and then my posts will be 214!
> 
> Cheers


Few things:

1st. This was not a review thread correct? Why not start one for "your review". I think the first issue is that this is not the correct platform for it. 

2nd. Dont assume we only like "good" or positive reviews. Just not the case. Your choice of words or format was less then "opening" to what you had to say....makes it tough to get past regardless of the "info" given. Your basis for your findings or methods certainly leave a lot to be questioned. Especially with the crowd here. Gotta have something tangible (not necessarily #s) to prove your findings or it will be shredded. Thats what this forum is based on.... Facts over fiction. Not to say your findings would be different but if you want to say your peace and be received let alone respected.....do a separate thread and a MUCH more detailed description of your findings, how, and why. Otherwise.....it could be as simple as someone writing a review of sound from a picture? 
Just sayin'

Also.....Interesting mix you have there with the brax/dyn? Hard to imagine the two together......(love me some brax and dyns though!...just not together I dont think?)


----------



## Elektra

rexroadj said:


> Few things:
> 
> 1st. This was not a review thread correct? Why not start one for "your review". I think the first issue is that this is not the correct platform for it.
> 
> 2nd. Dont assume we only like "good" or positive reviews. Just not the case. Your choice of words or format was less then "opening" to what you had to say....makes it tough to get past regardless of the "info" given. Your basis for your findings or methods certainly leave a lot to be questioned. Especially with the crowd here. Gotta have something tangible (not necessarily #s) to prove your findings or it will be shredded. Thats what this forum is based on.... Facts over fiction. Not to say your findings would be different but if you want to say your peace and be received let alone respected.....do a separate thread and a MUCH more detailed description of your findings, how, and why. Otherwise.....it could be as simple as someone writing a review of sound from a picture?
> Just sayin'
> 
> Also.....Interesting mix you have there with the brax/dyn? Hard to imagine the two together......(love me some brax and dyns though!...just not together I dont think?)



I don't know wasn't expecting the feedback - maybe your right! Anyway I have given up on anything Z ... As you well can imagine!

Brax and dynaudio make a good combo as the dyns are accurate speakers especially the Esotar range - I find the home stuff much more forgiving than the car stuff - Esotar mids aren't as great as the DIY forum tested them to be. They very sterile , could say that they lack warmth! 

I have another set of dyns they come from a home centre channel much nicer with warmth and bass - so ill try that set in my car when I have time to make new pods. 

Brax amps are neutral sounding amps very precise very German! Just have to look at the board and you know it's quality - I would love to get the Matrix X4 just too pricy right now about 3500 euros ex tax and shipping.

But the have been rated best in the world right now! 

If you can get them I highly recommend them.


----------



## rexroadj

Elektra said:


> I don't know wasn't expecting the feedback - maybe your right! Anyway I have given up on anything Z ... As you well can imagine!
> 
> Brax and dynaudio make a good combo as the dyns are accurate speakers especially the Esotar range - I find the home stuff much more forgiving than the car stuff - Esotar mids aren't as great as the DIY forum tested them to be. They very sterile , could say that they lack warmth!
> 
> I have another set of dyns they come from a home centre channel much nicer with warmth and bass - so ill try that set in my car when I have time to make new pods.
> 
> Brax amps are neutral sounding amps very precise very German! Just have to look at the board and you know it's quality - I would love to get the Matrix X4 just too pricy right now about 3500 euros ex tax and shipping.
> 
> But the have been rated best in the world right now!
> 
> If you can get them I highly recommend them.


Yeah, I have owned most things brax....probably my favorite manufacturer across the board....Your description of the dyns (which I agree with) is why I was saying it was a weird combo with the brax (mids, not amps) complete opposite? 
Not saying one setup is more "right" then the other....just surprised to see the two together for those reasons. If it works? AWESOME! Not questioning or anything. 

I would use brax if I wasnt building a phd demo vehicle and they were smaller. They are a little to close in markets  And since RF is distributing Brax/Helix they are already well setup for reps in areas (not that most rf reps have a clue about what brax really is  
But I digress........I am actually VERY excited to get my hands on the new Z line. To each there own...... Next time I would just start a separate thread for something like that though to avoid going off track and to avoid the "crowds" 
Good luck with your system though!


----------



## Elektra

rexroadj said:


> Yeah, I have owned most things brax....probably my favorite manufacturer across the board....Your description of the dyns (which I agree with) is why I was saying it was a weird combo with the brax (mids, not amps) complete opposite?
> Not saying one setup is more "right" then the other....just surprised to see the two together for those reasons. If it works? AWESOME! Not questioning or anything.
> 
> I would use brax if I wasnt building a phd demo vehicle and they were smaller. They are a little to close in markets  And since RF is distributing Brax/Helix they are already well setup for reps in areas (not that most rf reps have a clue about what brax really is
> But I digress........I am actually VERY excited to get my hands on the new Z line. To each there own...... Next time I would just start a separate thread for something like that though to avoid going off track and to avoid the "crowds"
> Good luck with your system though!


I think the Esotar mids are bright to an extent! Alone they sound horrible actually - I was a bit reluctant to use them but I spent the cash do gave it a try. In a complete system they sound good actually. 

If you like dyns then try to get home hifi speakers. 

If I can say this - without the crowds ... Brax is in a different league to Zapco especially the new range - old range a bit closer IMHO! But hey opinions are like arseholes .... Everyone has one! 

Cheers


----------



## rexroadj

Elektra said:


> I think the Esotar mids are bright to an extent! Alone they sound horrible actually - I was a bit reluctant to use them but I spent the cash do gave it a try. In a complete system they sound good actually.
> 
> If you like dyns then try to get home hifi speakers.
> 
> If I can say this - without the crowds ... Brax is in a different league to Zapco especially the new range - old range a bit closer IMHO! But hey opinions are like arseholes .... Everyone has one!
> 
> Cheers


I have had MANY Dyn home stuff  Yeah, imo you cant go wrong with any $ spent there. All my producers use them in studio and since I dont fly to Nashville for recordings I get piped in live. I decided I would like to listen to it as they do  LOL!!!!! 
I have always loved brax....warranty, sound, build, etc........But I see brax, zapco, sinfoni, and the few like as all steps sideways imo. I have very high hopes for the new zapco and have no fear about my expectations when I order them. I respect and appreciate your opinion though. 
Hope I'm right 
For the sake of the thread and being WAY off topic I will cease this conversation in the direction its headed but thank you for the back and forth! 
All the best! 
Justin


----------



## ACJohn

*Re: Zapco - It's about sound, not price.*

rgiorgio

Thank you for your support. But, I do want to be clear on a couple of things. 

"If the 12volt consumer was willing to pay for the best of the best, Zapco would still be making the C2K's"
No that's really not true. That assumes the C2K was a better sounding product. I do not believe it was. The C2K was the starting point. The new amps were compared to thew C2K to see where they were better and where they were not. Then we made changes until the new amps were better than the C2K all-around.
But you do hit on a valid point...the price. I was told early on that if I wanted the new amps to get the respect of the C2K I'd have to raise the price "Nobody will believe they're as good at that price". But this is what I did and this is how I priced them. If you want to pay more just send me the extra.

Now, more accurately: If the consumer was willing to pay the price for American Made, we would still be making it here. Then this amp would be priced like the C2K.

Also: "I don't believe the Z series was ever intended to be identical to the C2K's for less money."
It wasn't, it was designed to be _better_ than the C2K...period. It was not designed to a price point, we have other amps coming for that. The Z and ZX were designed to be the best sounding amps we have ever offered. 
And so far, except for one person, everyone who's listened to them likes them better.

But hey...There are a number of really good lot of amps out there, and if we all agreed completely there would only be one.


----------



## nepl29

I have Dyn Esotars2/Brax Matrix MX4s combo right now, EXCELLENT combo!!! I have a Zapco Z150.6 going into my daily driver in a couple of months, i have no doubt that its great sounding amp. I know at least 3 Z owners and all are extremely pleased with the sound of the the Zs.


----------



## thehatedguy

I can't wait until my money gets right so I can get a couple of the new DC Ref 100x4s.


----------



## thehatedguy

Or really good for a pair of the Z 4 channels and a Z8.

But will be a while til I get anything...unless it's free or near to it


----------



## ACJohn

*Re: John - let's settle this*

"John - let's settle this .... I gave an unbiased review of the Z150.6 and I am sorry if it didn't conform to others."

Massimo it is already settled. You don't like the Z-150.6. You don't need to conform to the others, however exaggerated descriptive terms like "heart my ears" and "poop" aren't much help to people who are honestly trying to figure out what the problem is. 

You said that it hurt your ears. A very literal statement that left me wondering how that could be. I wasn't angry...I was concerned. I wanted to know what was going on. I talked to a lot of people to try to figure out how the highs could be that offensive. Unfortunately, we came up with nothing, given what we've heard from the amp in various system configurations over here.

OK, you don't like it. That's acceptable. 

But to call my integrity into question and Zapco's integrity into guestion is not acceptable at all. I put 18 months into developing this line
to have you state _as a fact, not as an opinion_ that they are cheaply made and designed to sell cheap. That I find very offensive and that's why I responded.

Your challenge to me? Massimo, this is not junior high. You say you're through with Z. OK, buy something else and we can both move on.


----------



## Tnutt19

*Re: John - let's settle this*



ACJohn said:


> "John - let's settle this .... I gave an unbiased review of the Z150.6 and I am sorry if it didn't conform to others."
> 
> Your challenge to me? Massimo, this is not junior high. You say you're through with Z. OK, buy something else and we can both move on.


Very well answered John!


----------



## rcurley55

John - I applaud your approach and despite Zapco's terrible website , if I need amps or a processor, I won't hesitate to look at your products.


----------



## Elektra

*Re: John - let's settle this*



ACJohn said:


> "John - let's settle this .... I gave an unbiased review of the Z150.6 and I am sorry if it didn't conform to others."
> 
> Massimo it is already settled. You don't like the Z-150.6. You don't need to conform to the others, however exaggerated descriptive terms like "heart my ears" and "poop" aren't much help to people who are honestly trying to figure out what the problem is.
> 
> You said that it hurt your ears. A very literal statement that left me wondering how that could be. I wasn't angry...I was concerned. I wanted to know what was going on. I talked to a lot of people to try to figure out how the highs could be that offensive. Unfortunately, we came up with nothing, given what we've heard from the amp in various system configurations over here.
> 
> OK, you don't like it. That's acceptable.
> 
> But to call my integrity into question and Zapco's integrity into guestion is not acceptable at all. I put 18 months into developing this line
> to have you state _as a fact, not as an opinion_ that they are cheaply made and designed to sell cheap. That I find very offensive and that's why I responded.
> 
> Your challenge to me? Massimo, this is not junior high. You say you're through with Z. OK, buy something else and we can both move on.


Your right lets move on! 

Challenges or whatever can be conducted amongst ourselves in our respective countries. No doubt the local forums will pick this up without me being involved in anyway. So we will wait and see and if such a public critic comes out of it then I'll be sure to share will others. 

Also we will wait for Auto HiFi to do a formal review of the new products - they do keep records of the other reviews done so we will see if they score higher or lower! 

I am sorry if honest criticism offend the designer but we do that for the Product to improve? Do you think Bmw doesn't listen to complaints about their cars? Even if they don't acknowledge a problem! 

Anyway best of luck with the new line!


----------



## matdotcom2000

Let me say this I have been reading this thread and would buy anys zapcos who doesnt want them  !!!


----------



## fast4door

BigRed said:


> here is a short video on the Zapco Z8 processor. Please note that this video was done by me, and any inaccurate statements made by me in regards to the processor and how it works are not to be held against the company itself. I'm just a guy that plays with alot of stuff, and trying to give a little insight on the GUI from my vantage point.
> 
> zapco_z8_review - bigredcali's library


It looks like it is very user friendly .T thought I saw a MSRP of $429 and now it is $539 what happened Thanks for posting


----------



## 6spdcoupe

fast4door said:


> It looks like it is very user friendly .T thought I saw a MSRP of $429 and now it is $539 what happened Thanks for posting


 That was an estimated SRP price a year ago. SRP is $549.


----------



## fast4door

cyberdraven said:


> I was quite fortunate to play with the new Zapco DPN Software. Thanks John!
> 
> The new software looks very much similar from the old one but with some refinements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EQ Portion:
> 1. The levels was reduced from previous model (-18 db to +18db) to the new one (-15 db to +15 db). Personally, no issue here since i seldom go that far.
> 2. The Q levels was improved from 1 - 6 to 1 - 10. Increments of 0.5 remains the same.
> 3. The Frequency band remains the same. Still powerfull and allows customization at 1 hz increment. You could key-in the exact frequency you wanted to boost or cut!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crossover network:
> 1. No changes in frequency. Same old goodies. you could still key-in the exact frequency you wanted.
> 2. Major change is the slope. The new one already caters up to 36 db/oct. The previous one only plays up to 24db/oct.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phase:
> This is one of my fave refinements! The old one only caters 0 or 180 degrees phase shift. The new one allows phase shift at 15 degrees increment! No need to crave for the Sinfoni Phaser Pro folks, this one can give you enough leverage to play with phase.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Time Delay:
> The old model has TA increment of 0.1 ms. The new one is more refined at 0.01 ms increment! You could now key-in a delay of 1.12ms or 1.15ms! Love it as this is one of my wishes just like that of the BitOne.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, all i need is a new amp to try it side by side with my old and reliable one. hehehe. Hmmmm....., might be a good idea to try if the new software works with the old one. hehehe.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Paeng


very cool I like the new T/A adjustments . I cant wait to get my new Zapco Z8 and start tweeking..


----------



## ACJohn

*Re: Lost anothert one in So.Africa*

For you guys who are using the Z-150 amps: 
I got this this morning from the other guy in South Africa:
" I have decided to either sell the amp to someone else, purchasing a ground zero Reference amplifier."

As I tried to tell Massimo before...I'm not defensive, and I'm not offended. I am curious and concerned. Both these guys had the same complaint. They didn't like the highs. Are they looking for something different in So Africa? Is there something going on with the amps that I'm not hearing? 

My goal is to make every run of Z-150 amps better than the last. If you can't keep getting better, why bother? So, I am open to any words about the sound of the Z-150s.

*Please,* I am not looking for support or pats on the back. I'd like to know if you guys hear things that could be improved. I talk to Matt R. fairly often about the boards, and I've got all the other team guys giving me feedback on the sound, but these are all serious competition guys. How about the rest of you. 

Please drop me a line at [email protected] with any feedback, or post it up here. Help me make every Zapco amp better than the last.

Thanks, John


----------



## Elektra

*Re: Lost anothert one in So.Africa*



ACJohn said:


> For you guys who are using the Z-150 amps:
> I got this this morning from the other guy in South Africa:
> " I have decided to either sell the amp to someone else, purchasing a ground zero Reference amplifier."
> 
> As I tried to tell Massimo before...I'm not defensive, and I'm not offended. I am curious and concerned. Both these guys had the same complaint. They didn't like the highs. Are they looking for something different in So Africa? Is there something going on with the amps that I'm not hearing?
> 
> My goal is to make every run of Z-150 amps better than the last. If you can't keep getting better, why bother? So, I am open to any words about the sound of the Z-150s.
> 
> *Please,* I am not looking for support or pats on the back. I'd like to know if you guys hear things that could be improved. I talk to Matt R. fairly often about the boards, and I've got all the other team guys giving me feedback on the sound, but these are all serious competition guys. How about the rest of you.
> 
> Please drop me a line at [email protected] with any feedback, or post it up here. Help me make every Zapco amp better than the last.
> 
> Thanks, John


Hi John

By the way I had nothing to do with it ... Just in
Case anyone is thinking it.

We like everyone else like a warm amp - typically American audio product are considered warm - European audio equipment is considered bright or clinical. This has mostly to do with the type of houses they live in - wooden floors high ceilings etc... Cars are obviously all the same! But that does not negate the type of sound they prefer to hear!

John - their seems to be an issue with the type of sound the new Z amps produce. Zapco is well known for the warmth typical of USA amps. Maybe look at the type of caps used in the audio section - everyone makes a big deal about ELNA and Mundorf caps... Maybe their is something to it?

Honestly guys here have opened the Z amps up and all were concerned with the quality and type of caps used in the amp - some even said that none of the caps are Japanese or German made and are of "poor" quality! 

I personally haven't seen the internals! So I cant comment! 

I think if you address that the Z amps will sound a lot better! And I think that would be best for all Zapco enthusiasts around the world 

This is not a Zapco bashing session just some input on making the product better! 

I understand that by doing this you will be increasing the production costs but I am sure Zapco fans would not mind paying $100 more for better results considering how popular the C2K range was at that price! I am sure extra few $ won't offend anyone!

Massimo


----------



## Wonway

Can someone ban this asshat? 

I know I am not the only one able to see through his ********.


----------



## reno.sa

*Re: Lost anothert one in So.Africa*



ACJohn said:


> For you guys who are using the Z-150 amps:
> I got this this morning from the other guy in South Africa:
> " I have decided to either sell the amp to someone else, purchasing a ground zero Reference amplifier."
> 
> As I tried to tell Massimo before...I'm not defensive, and I'm not offended. I am curious and concerned. Both these guys had the same complaint. They didn't like the highs. Are they looking for something different in So Africa? Is there something going on with the amps that I'm not hearing?
> 
> My goal is to make every run of Z-150 amps better than the last. If you can't keep getting better, why bother? So, I am open to any words about the sound of the Z-150s.
> 
> *Please,* I am not looking for support or pats on the back. I'd like to know if you guys hear things that could be improved. I talk to Matt R. fairly often about the boards, and I've got all the other team guys giving me feedback on the sound, but these are all serious competition guys. How about the rest of you.
> 
> Please drop me a line at [email protected] with any feedback, or post it up here. Help me make every Zapco amp better than the last.
> 
> Thanks, John


Hi John

I would maybe try and replace all the capacitors with either Elna sim II, or maybe even Panasonic T-UP or T-HA. Maybe try doing that to one amp and test it compared the the original amps and see how it sounds, I would be interessted to see how it sounds. Even if you have to push up the price a little to compensate for the good qaulity capacitor replacements.


----------



## Elektra

Wonway said:


> Can someone ban this asshat?
> 
> I know I am not the only one able to see through his ********.


What BS are you seeing - please do share with other intelligent forum members? 

Qualify your statement genius or you look like moron here!

Ignorance is bliss!!!!


----------



## Richv72

Wonway said:


> Can someone ban this asshat?
> 
> I know I am not the only one able to see through his ********.


This thread isnt a vendor thread, its a thread on zapco products. This guy has as much right to give a negative review as other members have to give a positive review. If every review were positive then why review at all?. 

PS: I think nostalgia is clouding your eyes, so maybe in fact you cant see through the bs.


----------



## DAT

Elektra said:


> What BS are you seeing - please do share with other intelligent forum members?
> 
> Qualify your statement genius or you look like moron here!
> 
> Ignorance is bliss!!!!


So you didn't like the Zapco Z series amp, you stated this before.. so why not just ignore this thread.

Any more negative statements is like Bashing, and should not be tolerated.



Richv72 said:


> This thread isnt a vendor thread, its a thread on zapco products. This guy has as much right to give a negative review as other members have to give a positive review. If every review were positive then why review at all?.
> 
> PS: I think nostalgia is clouding your eyes, so maybe in fact you cant see through the bs.



True, if someone makes a negative statement that is fine, it's his opinion, but continuing to follow a thread to continue to bash should not be tolerated.


----------



## ACJohn

Wonway said:


> Can someone ban this asshat?
> 
> I know I am not the only one able to see through his ********.


Jeez people. Get a grip! The guy is not an *******. He just disagrees. That's what the forum is for. He wrote a bad review...OK. It's my product and I'm not offended, why should you be?

Was it useful to me? No. "Hurts my ears" doesn't help me much. But then neither does "sounds awesome". In his last post he talks about caps...now that can be helpful. What made professional reviews helpful (when ad money didn't get in the way) was that they told you exactly what they liked or didn't like and why, and what they thought made something sound that way.

Talking about caps and internals and specifically what we are hearing is what is helpful...at least to me. Do we have a little room for more cost? Absolutely. The Z150.2 is less than 1/2 the 6.0, so a hundred bucks or even two wouldn't be all that outrageous a bump. We can't put a bunch of $75.00 op-amps in there but we will look for all we can do and still keep the amp sellable. So again. Any feedback is helpful, so we can keep making better Zapco amps. 

Thoughts on processing? I'm open for that too. Do you still want analog processors? Certainly line drivers, but how about EQs, OEM adapters, etc?

Right now we are redrawing all the Z/ZX boards for better supply voltage regulation to improve S/N and reduce the chances of any DC off-set. We're also changing the muting system. The new muting just doesn't work as good as we'd like and occasionally somebody will get a turn-off tic. No cost increases here, just sideways changes. 

The goal: every run better than the last

Thx, John


----------



## thehatedguy

I volunteer to beta test amps for you .


----------



## rexroadj

I'm actually ordering two Z150's tomorrow. One bridged for each set of PHD AF6.3's Probably a Z8 and maybe the Z1k....not sure on sub yet so I may just stick to the Z150's and if I feel the need to go 3way active (planning on it) then I can use one of the z150's bridged to a sub and hopefully squeeze in the 4 channel......Its going to be really tight and really dont want for amps (not sure I can fit that many actually?)

Actually very excited to order them!!!!


----------



## Jfreak

I'm a zapco fan..










Can't wait to hear these paired with HAT components.


----------



## subwoofery

ACJohn said:


> Jeez people. Get a grip! The guy is not an *******. He just disagrees. That's what the forum is for. He wrote a bad review...OK. It's my product and I'm not offended, why should you be?
> 
> Was it useful to me? No. "Hurts my ears" doesn't help me much. But then neither does "sounds awesome". In his last post he talks about caps...now that can be helpful. What made professional reviews helpful (when ad money didn't get in the way) was that they told you exactly what they liked or didn't like and why, and what they thought made something sound that way.
> 
> Talking about caps and internals and specifically what we are hearing is what is helpful...at least to me. Do we have a little room for more cost? Absolutely. The Z150.2 is less than 1/2 the 6.0, so a hundred bucks or even two wouldn't be all that outrageous a bump. We can't put a bunch of $75.00 op-amps in there but we will look for all we can do and still keep the amp sellable. So again. Any feedback is helpful, so we can keep making better Zapco amps.
> 
> Thoughts on processing? I'm open for that too. Do you still want analog processors? Certainly line drivers, but how about EQs, OEM adapters, etc?
> 
> Right now we are redrawing all the Z/ZX boards for better supply voltage regulation to improve S/N and reduce the chances of any DC off-set. We're also changing the muting system. The new muting just doesn't work as good as we'd like and occasionally somebody will get a turn-off tic. No cost increases here, just sideways changes.
> 
> The goal: every run better than the last
> 
> Thx, John


Work your Axx off for a Class D DC Ref amp  

Kelvin


----------



## Elektra

ACJohn said:


> Jeez people. Get a grip! The guy is not an *******. He just disagrees. That's what the forum is for. He wrote a bad review...OK. It's my product and I'm not offended, why should you be?
> 
> Was it useful to me? No. "Hurts my ears" doesn't help me much. But then neither does "sounds awesome". In his last post he talks about caps...now that can be helpful. What made professional reviews helpful (when ad money didn't get in the way) was that they told you exactly what they liked or didn't like and why, and what they thought made something sound that way.
> 
> Talking about caps and internals and specifically what we are hearing is what is helpful...at least to me. Do we have a little room for more cost? Absolutely. The Z150.2 is less than 1/2 the 6.0, so a hundred bucks or even two wouldn't be all that outrageous a bump. We can't put a bunch of $75.00 op-amps in there but we will look for all we can do and still keep the amp sellable. So again. Any feedback is helpful, so we can keep making better Zapco amps.
> 
> Thoughts on processing? I'm open for that too. Do you still want analog processors? Certainly line drivers, but how about EQs, OEM adapters, etc?
> 
> Right now we are redrawing all the Z/ZX boards for better supply voltage regulation to improve S/N and reduce the chances of any DC off-set. We're also changing the muting system. The new muting just doesn't work as good as we'd like and occasionally somebody will get a turn-off tic. No cost increases here, just sideways changes.
> 
> The goal: every run better than the last
> 
> Thx, John


Thanks John!

Let me know if you have changed anything so we can listen to them.

Massimo


----------



## Elektra

DAT said:


> So you didn't like the Zapco Z series amp, you stated this before.. so why not just ignore this thread.
> 
> Any more negative statements is like Bashing, and should not be tolerated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, if someone makes a negative statement that is fine, it's his opinion, but continuing to follow a thread to continue to bash should not be tolerated.



Guys! 

Not bashing the product just adding some constructive critism - an upgrade will benefit you - No?


----------



## clix`g35

JOHN, 

I need a 6 channel amp bad like yesterday, and I have had the ich for a Zapco amp since I installed my first car speaker. I am in Florida and there Isnt much presence down here, so Ive always run JL which is made down the block and in no way a shoddy product. But this is my car and damnit I want a Zapco Z150.6!

How can early adopters who listen and criticize and help you improve your amps get there amps updated also? 

Not saying you have an obligation to update my old product, but if you fix certain issues with the boards, would there be a process were we can send you the amp and for a reasonable fee have it updated? How reasonable can this fee be and do you think there will be future changes so dramatic older boards wont be able to update?

Thanks!


----------



## customtronic

Jfreak said:


> I'm a zapco fan..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait to hear these paired with HAT components.


SWEET! Can't wait to see the finished product. For those of you that don't know, this car is bad ass.....can you say BMW w/ Corvette drivetrain? The engine bay is a work of art. VERY well done!


----------



## pocket5s

customtronic said:


> SWEET! Can't wait to see the finished product. For those of you that don't know, this car is bad ass.....can you say BMW w/ Corvette drivetrain? The engine bay is a work of art. VERY well done!


Looks like Fi subs? I don't think that baffle will hold them 

Nice array of amps there though. Zapco's are on my short list of amps to use.


----------



## fast4door

Jfreak said:


> I'm a zapco fan..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait to hear these paired with HAT components.


sweet looking set up!!!!! how do you like the Z8 ?


----------



## Jfreak

fast4door said:


> sweet looking set up!!!!! how do you like the Z8 ?


Thanks, haven't had anything hooked up to it yet. It looks and feels like a sturdy unit, other than that I can't give any feedback yet.


----------



## Richv72

Jfreak said:


> I'm a zapco fan..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait to hear these paired with HAT components.


Nice looking setup, what amps are those?


----------



## Jfreak

Richv72 said:


> Nice looking setup, what amps are those?


2 z150.2, 400.2 and a 2kd


----------



## Tnutt19

Jfreak said:


> 2 z150.2, 400.2 and a 2kd


you mind posting gut shots of the 400.2 and 2kw?


----------



## darrenforeal

I don't mind the new Z series either


----------



## Jfreak

Tnutt19 said:


> you mind posting gut shots of the 400.2 and 2kw?


I'd be happy to, as long as it won't void my warranty. Can anyone confirm that before I open it up?


----------



## [email protected]

Jfreak said:


> I'd be happy to, as long as it won't void my warranty. Can anyone confirm that before I open it up?


If there is not a sticker on the bottom say it would void it, I think you will be ok.


----------



## Richv72

So the amps dont come with birth sheets anymore, im curious to how under rated they are.


----------



## Tnutt19

Yea there is not a sticker on the bottom of them. I know a lot of people would appreciate if you could, I certainly understand your reservations though


----------



## Jfreak

Well I'll take a look and see if it mentions anything in the manual that came with it, if all is good ill post up pics within a few days.


----------



## 12v Electronics

darrenforeal said:


>


Is that a Dodge? 

If so make sure to reseal the 3rd brake light. 

Don't ask me how I know


----------



## darrenforeal

12v Electronics said:


> Is that a Dodge?
> 
> If so make sure to reseal the 3rd brake light.
> 
> Don't ask me how I know


yeah it is. ram 2004 1500. Thanks for the tip on light. hmmmm


----------



## 12v Electronics

darrenforeal said:


> yeah it is. ram 2004 1500. Thanks for the tip on light. hmmmm


It's mostly on the last generation, but I would take it out and put a layer of strip caulk on the backside of the light. It is a very common problem and will fill both of those compartments with water on a good rain.


----------



## DeanE10

Yep, did that to my 2002 as well...


----------



## darrenforeal

thanks for the heads up.


----------



## aj1735

rexroadj said:


> I'm actually ordering two Z150's tomorrow. One bridged for each set of PHD AF6.3's Probably a Z8 and maybe the Z1k....not sure on sub yet so I may just stick to the Z150's and if I feel the need to go 3way active (planning on it) then I can use one of the z150's bridged to a sub and hopefully squeeze in the 4 channel......Its going to be really tight and really dont want for amps (not sure I can fit that many actually?)
> 
> Actually very excited to order them!!!!


Did you get them ordered? Just a thought, I have a 3 way active + sub and am just using 2 amps. I have a zapco z150.4 for the tweets and mid range and a zapco zx200.4 for the mid bass and bridge the other 2 for a [email protected] ohms for my sub. Just a two amp solution if that's enough power for you and for your subs. I thought about using a z8 to run it but right now using my p99rs for the control.


----------



## BigRed

look what came on friday


----------



## Jfreak

BigRed said:


> look what came on friday


Must have! When are they available? Price?


----------



## highspeed

BigRed said:


> look what came on friday


BigRed, where do you plan to mount that remote? With the screen printing on the top I'm not sure where to mount mine...


----------



## BigRed

i'm planning on mounting it in the center console. the buttons are easy enough to follow if you mount it just from the front ime.


----------



## rexroadj

aj1735 said:


> Did you get them ordered? Just a thought, I have a 3 way active + sub and am just using 2 amps. I have a zapco z150.4 for the tweets and mid range and a zapco zx200.4 for the mid bass and bridge the other 2 for a [email protected] ohms for my sub. Just a two amp solution if that's enough power for you and for your subs. I thought about using a z8 to run it but right now using my p99rs for the control.


Cant fit the 200.4 (probably to much for my mids too) And I'm really not sure I can fit the 150.4 either. If I can that is next on my list. It will be close. I'm really limited by length
Actually I wish they made a smaller 4 channel, say 75x4 and be the size of the 150.2? (cant believe I just said that?????) 

I did already order the two 150.2's though. Depending on what sub setup I go with....if I can fit the 150.4 then I will do that and bridged the other 150 for my single 10" PHD FB10.1 ported or single 12 sealed.....it will be plenty of power for either I think.


----------



## Coppertone

BigRed said:


> look what came on friday


Ok please don't tease me like this, where did you buy it from, and how much are they running?


----------



## BigRed

it was given to me by zapco so i don't know the retail price. I'm gonna put it in and see how she does


----------



## Richv72

Looks like a parametric equalizer in the hand of a giant


----------



## Coppertone

All I know is that I would like one to complete my current install of my Z8. I need to start contacting Zapco to see if they to adopt a slightly used old man as a son lol.


----------



## fast4door

Sweet!! I like it. looks like the missing link to my Z8


----------



## fast4door

12v Electronics said:


> Is that a Dodge?
> 
> If so make sure to reseal the 3rd brake light.
> 
> Don't ask me how I know




nice Tundra !!!!!!


----------



## rexroadj

My Z's will be here Tuesday  Very excited!!!!!


----------



## weshole

Edit.
GOT EM!!!!


----------



## Sulley

Any more photo's of the Z8-R? Interested in what the front looks like. 

The USB port on the front is an awesome feature.


----------



## jstang2003

Tnutt19 said:


> you mind posting gut shots of the 400.2 and 2kw?



This. Would be very appreciated.


----------



## weshole

That is what I just posted.


----------



## Jfreak

Sorry guys been crazy busy, I'll try and get pics soon.


----------



## Jfreak

Here's the 2KD (iphone) pics





































And the 400.2






































Any other specific pics let me know.


----------



## DAT

PICS look great :thumbsup:


----------



## rexroadj

^ NO ****! People can say ANYTHING they want about change of hands, over built C2K's (that NO ONE used to there built specs) etc......That is a VERY well built amp! I am so excited for Tues its crazy! I, for the first time, feel like before I open the box, I made a perfect decision on amps!


----------



## weshole

rexroadj said:


> ^ NO ****! People can say ANYTHING they want about change of hands, over built C2K's (that NO ONE used to there built specs) etc......That is a VERY well built amp! I am so excited for Tues its crazy! I, for the first time, feel like before I open the box, I made a perfect decision on amps!


Ive been stroking mine for a few days now. Great stuff. Cannot wait to install them. You wont regret your purchase.


----------



## rexroadj

SEXY TWINS


----------



## EditTim

Jfreak said:


> Here's the 2KD (iphone) pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the 400.2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any other specific pics let me know.


Nice! How about a pic or two of the 150.2?


----------



## Richv72

theres already a gutshot of the 150 somewhere back in thread


----------



## preston

I like to do a lot of research before I buy something and one of the most important parts of that is price, whether its real world or MSRP I at least know where I stand. Their website does not list prices or their dealers. I did happen to stumble across a dealer in SEattle but only because I happened to see zapco listed on their website, so I could call them and get the rundown, but I would be asking the price of like 10 different amps because that is how I shop, and I might not buy them and hate to waste the guys time. I understand why these guys and others go to great pains to preserve the old model of a strong dealer network, but I just find the process a little too esoteric and difficult. I don't know, I guess I just change my mind a lot and like to order "just in time" and get parts. So maybe their marketing approach just isn't for guys like me, and is actually on purpose to preserve the mystique and exclusivity. But it just seems like they would sell more crap if they were a more together operation. 

Or, I can go on ebay and buy all sorts of models all day long but I have no idea what they really are and they have made it clear they don't like or support me doing that !

Just a random rant ! Carry on, they are beautiful inside aren't they ?


----------



## pocket5s

They used to list prices, don't know why they don't now. Once I saw they removed the,, I used googles cache to look back and get them 

Being a geek has its pluses


----------



## highspeed

Manufactures who sell internationally can run into problems listing prices on the web because, for example, a dealer in Brazil has to pay many fees when they import the product, which raises the price. Most international distributors and dealers ask manufactures to NOT list a price on the internet so local customers don't attempt to buy from outside the distribution channel. 
If you need a price you should contact the manufacture or a dealer. Trust me, the product is worth your time to pick up the phone for a few min. or type a quick email...


----------



## EditTim

Richv72 said:


> theres already a gutshot of the 150 somewhere back in thread


There's a 150.4 on page 12 (post #285), thanks though...


----------



## customtronic

preston said:


> I like to do a lot of research before I buy something and one of the most important parts of that is price, whether its real world or MSRP I at least know where I stand. Their website does not list prices or their dealers. I did happen to stumble across a dealer in SEattle but only because I happened to see zapco listed on their website, so I could call them and get the rundown, but I would be asking the price of like 10 different amps because that is how I shop, and I might not buy them and hate to waste the guys time. I understand why these guys and others go to great pains to preserve the old model of a strong dealer network, but I just find the process a little too esoteric and difficult. I don't know, I guess I just change my mind a lot and like to order "just in time" and get parts. So maybe their marketing approach just isn't for guys like me, and is actually on purpose to preserve the mystique and exclusivity. But it just seems like they would sell more crap if they were a more together operation.
> 
> Or, I can go on ebay and buy all sorts of models all day long but I have no idea what they really are and they have made it clear they don't like or support me doing that !
> 
> Just a random rant ! Carry on, they are beautiful inside aren't they ?


FYI, I'm also an authorized Zapco dealer. I'm a little bit of a drive from you in Olympia. Please don't hesitate to call the shop if you need anything. 360-866-0276 Thanks

Steve


----------



## Golden Ear

Getting a dsp-z8 to go with my old school z220s...can't wait!


----------



## Jdm94Coupe

i love zapco, great thread and great pics.


----------



## customtronic

Golden Ear said:


> Getting a dsp-z8 to go with my old school z220s...can't wait!


Sweet!!!


----------



## EditTim

Question...

My HU outputs 4 channels (no sub specific channel), and I'm going to use the DSP-Z8.
Do I need to (or should I) run all four channels to the DSP? Is this advantageous? I'd just assume only run two channels back to the DSP.

I recently unplugged channels 3 & 4 going into my mids/highs amp and put it in 2-channel input mode from 4-channel. I could not hear any audible difference. Same SQ & SPL that I could tell.

I get it that the 4 (or 6) channels are needed for multiple amps and such, but with the DSP, are they necessary? I don't need the fader control from my HU...


----------



## Golden Ear

Only need 2 channels.


----------



## weshole

Just got my amps installed.

Lets just say Im more than pleased with my purchase!!!!!!


----------



## robert_wrath

weshole said:


> Just got my amps installed.
> 
> Lets just say Im more than pleased with my purchase!!!!!!


One more for the Good Guys!


----------



## highspeed

I installed three new Z series amps and the Z8 two weeks ago. The sound is fantastic! Best I've ever had. Many thanks to the Zapco team for a great product and excellent support.


----------



## robert_wrath

highspeed said:


> I installed three new Z series amps and the Z8 two weeks ago. The sound is fantastic! Best I've ever had. Many thanks to the Zapco team for a great product and excellent support.


Love to hear yet another client overwhelmed by Zapco product performance. 

How do you feel about the GUI on the DSP-Z8?


----------



## Elektra

Hi All

Just want to say something to John..

Thank you for all your support! ZAPCO has probably the best after sales service I have ever encountered.

Thanks again

Massimo


----------



## highspeed

robert_wrath said:


> Love to hear yet another client overwhelmed by Zapco product performance.
> 
> How do you feel about the GUI on the DSP-Z8?


I think the GUI is good, I find it easy to use and learn. As with anything there is a learning curve but I had it going with basic setup within 15 minutes. (No EQ, no TA) I have been doing this stuff for about 25 years so...

As with anything like this I have a few suggestions for Zapco to make it better - but I have to say, it sounds amazing and keeps getting better every time I spend time adjusting it. 
There's something funky about assigning the inputs/outputs and setting sensitivity. Some things can't be done but these rules don't seem to be in the manual. If these things were published I wouldn't spend time wondering how to do them and getting frustrated, and then waste the time of Zapco support staff asking questions that are not easy to put into words...
My plan is to sort a few of these little things out and then publish my findings here so others can benefit. Possibly even help Zapco write a new step by step general setup manual. Once I have my rig dialed in I'll also share my Zapco data file so anyone can load their DSP with my settings.


----------



## goodstuff

highspeed said:


> I think the GUI is good, I find it easy to use and learn. As with anything there is a learning curve but I had it going with basic setup within 15 minutes. (No EQ, no TA) I have been doing this stuff for about 25 years so...
> 
> As with anything like this I have a few suggestions for Zapco to make it better - but I have to say, it sounds amazing and keeps getting better every time I spend time adjusting it.
> There's something funky about assigning the inputs/outputs and setting sensitivity. Some things can't be done but these rules don't seem to be in the manual. If these things were published I wouldn't spend time wondering how to do them and getting frustrated, and then waste the time of Zapco support staff asking questions that are not easy to put into words...
> My plan is to sort a few of these little things out and then publish my findings here so others can benefit. Possibly even help Zapco write a new step by step general setup manual. Once I have my rig dialed in I'll also share my Zapco data file so anyone can load their DSP with my settings.


I've found the manual for the dsp-z8 to be *severely* lacking in many respects. They give you a big history of Zapco, repeat themselves telling you about the type of transistors they used, but have *NO* mention of how to setup, login, load or save files. No problem, I've always been a total mind reader and knew what needed to be done ( actually I just searched diyma).
P.S the password is Zapco, not that it would be important enough to put in the manual. I am stopping here, I could go on for a bit about my experience so far with this device.....


----------



## matdotcom2000

I would like to say first of I love ZAPCO BUT their customer support sucks. I have owned countless C2k amplifiers (paid retail for a FEW). I just recently sent one in to get upgraded to 4 ohms and was contacted on Thursday of last week that the amp was ready and shipping out on Friday and should arrive on Wed of this week. I got a call today that the amp was still at the facility and had not been shipped, but they were sending it today. Informed Aaron (the guy I was talking to about this) that the amp was suppose to go out last week and I was really needing the amp before the end of this week (competiton coming soon, kids, wife, vacations all are banking on this amp being here this week) and that I would be willing to spend a little extra on shipping but I would like to see if we could split the cost or at least problem solve.. he was basically like thats not my problem, WOW... They still paid like 10 bucks off of shipping but I had to basically loose my mind before he was willing to give me some good options to help solve their messup. Shipping ended up being like 50 - 10 = $40.. But My thing is that I thought yall was the king of the hill, Elite in my book and just feel real let down by this. Sorry for the RANT....

So new products!!! how are they performing???


----------



## barracuda777

highspeed said:


> I think the GUI is good, I find it easy to use and learn. As with anything there is a learning curve but I had it going with basic setup within 15 minutes. (No EQ, no TA) I have been doing this stuff for about 25 years so...
> 
> As with anything like this I have a few suggestions for Zapco to make it better - but I have to say, it sounds amazing and keeps getting better every time I spend time adjusting it.
> There's something funky about assigning the inputs/outputs and setting sensitivity. Some things can't be done but these rules don't seem to be in the manual. If these things were published I wouldn't spend time wondering how to do them and getting frustrated, and then waste the time of Zapco support staff asking questions that are not easy to put into words...
> My plan is to sort a few of these little things out and then publish my findings here so others can benefit. Possibly even help Zapco write a new step by step general setup manual. Once I have my rig dialed in I'll also share my Zapco data file so anyone can load their DSP with my settings.


This would be a great idea highspeed and i am subscribed to. User manual for old DSP6 and DC amplifiers was exactly iqual: very poor.
I find on the web a little presentation in pdf format i would like to share, possibly someone have found it yet but i have nothing to lose to share it...

http://music-team.ru/pdf/zapco/dc-presentation.pdf

Now i feel exactly iqual. I am a huge fan of Zapco, i have already sale my DC amps and iám going to run Z series + DSP Z8.... wich models of Z amps are you using highspeed??


----------



## highspeed

barracuda777 said:


> This would be a great idea highspeed and i am subscribed to. User manual for old DSP6 and DC amplifiers was exactly iqual: very poor.
> I find on the web a little presentation in pdf format i would like to share, possibly someone have found it yet but i have nothing to lose to share it...
> 
> http://music-team.ru/pdf/zapco/dc-presentation.pdf
> 
> Now i feel exactly iqual. I am a huge fan of Zapco, i have already sale my DC amps and iám going to run Z series + DSP Z8.... wich models of Z amps are you using highspeed??


I'm running a Z150.4 to my front channels, a Z150.2 to my rears, and a Z2kd to my subs. The sound quality is top shelf all the way. Dead quiet, great dynamics and power, smooth non fatiguing sound. I had high expectations for these electronics and so far I'm very pleased. 

I'll write a short step by step basic setup guide first. Then I'll attempt to address the subtle quirks like password, com ports, input/output config, etc.

If you beat me to it just PM me your text so we can refine it. I think we should submit our finals to John for approval before we publish anything to the web.


----------



## barracuda777

Why using a 150.4 + 150.2 instead a 150.6?

Personnaly i am planned to used 2 x 150.4 one by side and 1 x Z2K for subs too.


----------



## highspeed

barracuda777 said:


> Why using a 150.4 + 150.2 instead a 150.6?
> 
> Personnaly i am planned to used 2 x 150.4 one by side and 1 x Z2K for subs too.



Test fit: DSP-Z8, Z150.4, Z2kd. Z150.2 under passenger seat.









Space requirements kept me from from doing a six channel. Cosmetics too, I wanted some symmetry under the back seat.


----------



## bbfoto

matdotcom2000 said:


> I would like to say first of I love ZAPCO BUT their customer support sucks. I have owned countless C2k amplifiers (paid retail for a FEW). I just recently sent one in to get upgraded to 4 ohms and was contacted on Thursday of last week that the amp was ready and shipping out on Friday and should arrive on Wed of this week. I got a call today that the amp was still at the facility and had not been shipped, but they were sending it today. Informed Aaron (the guy I was talking to about this) that the amp was suppose to go out last week and I was really needing the amp before the end of this week (competiton coming soon, kids, wife, vacations all are banking on this amp being here this week) and that I would be willing to spend a little extra on shipping but I would like to see if we could split the cost or at least problem solve.. he was basically like thats not my problem, WOW... They still paid like 10 bucks off of shipping but I had to basically loose my mind before he was willing to give me some good options to help solve their messup. Shipping ended up being like 50 - 10 = $40.. But My thing is that I thought yall was the king of the hill, Elite in my book and just feel real let down by this. Sorry for the RANT....


Matt, don't be sorry for your rant. I really appreciate knowing people's real-life CS experiences when dealing with a manufacturer. And I'm sure a lot of others here do, too. Customer Service is HUGE in any business, and even more so when purchasing expensive or "elite" products. I could write pages on how important good customer service has been in my own businesses, but I'll stop my rant short. Hopefully others have had better experiences, and not just team members or dealers.




highspeed said:


> I'll write a short step by step basic setup guide first. Then I'll attempt to address the subtle quirks like password, com ports, input/output config, etc.
> 
> If you beat me to it just PM me your text so we can refine it. I think we should submit our finals to John for approval before we publish anything to the web.


You guys are awesome if you can put this together! But honestly, I would actually charge Zapco for your services. Seriously. I realize, and appreciate, that you want to do this solely for the benefit of the DIYMA community here, but IMO, Zapco should at the very least supply you with free units for all of your time, research, and frustration. A concise, easy to understand user manual is GOLD to any manufacturer, and it's a cost that is always budgeted for alongside any product development (well, normally anyway).

John has written some fairly long posts on this forum, and has had to spend quite a bit of time to answer multiple questions, so you would think that Zapco would have the time to put together and post a simple PDF document with AT LEAST the BASIC (but IMPORTANT) information that you guys have referred to in your posts. 

Is it ethical for Zapco to rely SOLELY on their user's or product owner's "forums" to instruct, educate, and warn other potential users or buyers regarding how to operate a Zapco-made product? Proudly made in the U.S.A.!  :SIGH:

The DSP-Z8 isn't a simple plug-n-play product like a toaster or clock radio! It's a highly complex device that could easily damage thousands of dollars of connected equipment if not setup properly. Ironically, you'll probably find a VERY thorough manual with that toaster or clock radio you purchase.


----------



## highspeed

bbfoto - I think you're right but I have another perspective. I have had nothing but excellent customer service from Zapco and I would recommend them to everyone. Of course we are all human, some good people have bad days - there have been a few times when I've offered less than stellar support for my customers. 

Once you start writing instructions or a manual you quickly realize it's difficult. It's thankless, boring, and far from glamorous. Large companies hire professionals to do it but small manufactures have to make due with existing employees because it costs a fortune paying professionals to do this for every product. To make matters worse this economy forces small companies to run on a skeleton crew in order to keep overhead as low as possible. So now you have your best people working hard just to run daily operations, develop new gear, test prototypes, process and ship orders, etc. Not much time left for writing comprehensive user manuals for a product that is complex and used differently by EVERY customers installation. 
As long as Zapco and others keep making good products and answering the phone when I call I'm happy to offer constructive feedback for them and end users like myself.


----------



## bbfoto

^Good to hear. And I understand your perspective. Many praise Zapco's products, and for good reason. I've owned several of the older hi-end Zapco amps. Loved them. Very solid, well built, powerfull, clean sound, beautiful, and never had a problem with them. Other than the Symbilink setup, they are a simple affair...like any other amp, easy to install and setup with a few connections and simple adjustments.

I sold my Zapcos long ago. Not because they were bad products, quite the opposite...they were very hard to let go of. But they just took up too much space that I didn't want to lose, and I wasn't liking the whole symbilink system at the time. Otherwise, awesome. But the DSP is an entirely different (complex) animal.

Still, IMO, if a company (even a small one) cannot provide at least a BASIC instruction manual for a highly complex product they offer, then don't sell it. Period. Especially if it has the potential to damage other equipment that is attached. You are just asking for trouble, along with a damaging negative perception of the company and it how it operates. Put simply, it's just horrible business and marketing strategy, especially for a smaller company that may be struggling to survive as it is, while offering a boutique product line.

If I offered this product through my own company I would surely expect many unhappy (even angry) customers, a constant barrage of tech support emails and phone calls asking for answers to THE SAME 20+ questions over and over, on and on. Really? They couldn't even provide a single page with the BASIC information needed to setup the DSP? The password, etc?

Sure, most of the sales of these units will come from Zapco's (hopefully knowledgeable, DSP-Z8 trained, and up-to-date) dealer network. But still, there is a lot of potential for the end user to want/need to tweak some things. What if the customer decides to change amps, or go from a 2-way to a 3-way + sub setup, etc?

But I digress...maybe it's an impossible task for these types of products (looking back at the MS-8 thread). Poor Andy! I prolly would've off'ed myself by now! I fear that John/Zapco is in for similar bombardment, and probably won't/can't be as proactive and forthcoming with information/support.


----------



## TommyDS

Here I found a test of Z-150.4 in Russian audio mag Zapco Z-150.4 vs. MTX TH904 - avtozvuk.com (it is in Russian, you can use google translator) ... 

Has anybody made a test of Z series against more SQ amps ? (eg: Genesis, Steg K, or more expensive Sinfoni, Audison Thesis, Steg MSK, etc). I would like to know, how Z-series compares in term of instruments separation, depth between instruments, imaging, staging, etc...

Thanks for all inputs


----------



## barracuda777

Actually i am waiting for a 150.6 and a 1K and we have here 1 x D7056, 4 x Lunars, Diamond Elite.5 and Zapco C2K to make this test.


----------



## subwoofery

TommyDS said:


> Here I found a test of Z-150.4 in Russian audio mag Zapco Z-150.4 vs. MTX TH904 - avtozvuk.com (it is in Russian, you can use google translator) ...
> 
> Has anybody made a test of Z series against more SQ amps ? (eg: Genesis, Steg K, or more expensive Sinfoni, Audison Thesis, Steg MSK, etc). I would like to know, how Z-series compares in term of instruments separation, depth between instruments, imaging, staging, etc...
> 
> Thanks for all inputs


The old C2K amp was on par with the Helix Competition A, Sinfoni Amplitude, DLS TA2, Focal FP Dual Monitor & better than Mosconi AS (as per Autohifi Magazin) 
Based on that, I wouldn't be surprised if the new Zapco Z series was at least on par with those as well... 

Kelvin


----------



## darrenforeal

I am very very pleased with my 150.2s and DSP8. Yes, the user manual for the DSP8 is lacking right now. There will always be glitches and hickups and not perfect things with first runs products. That said...I think if Zapco's biggest problem with their new products is the user manual, then that's not too bad. Remember all the issues the PS8 has had, and is having?

The DSP8 is a great processor with a ton of capability. It just needs to be messed around with with someone who has a decent understanding of dsps. Is this ideal? No. But I am guessing things will get better regarding that. People may forget that Zapco is a very small company in the big scheme of things, and most people purchase their products because the SQ and bang for your buck. For instance, Pioneer's p99 manual is great, and it is a very nice processor. But the DSP8 is half the price and is more powerful and more dynamic. Everything and everyone has pluses and minuses.


----------



## barracuda777

Well then just get my hands on the first Z Zapco amplifier, a Z150.6. Little Monster but beautiful.

First on a very classic box by Zapco, however when opened can be noted that the box is a little small and the amp does not have sufficient protection. Some high density foam around will be nice, 1/2 inch. On removal from the packaging I had a heart attack ... clamping screws are below the amplifier and how it is mounted with the top down caused a severe scratch on the amplifier top.
Here I see two things: to place screws 10 cents to $ 1000 amplifier ... lacking a protective box for that kind of product. Wrong, I can´t fit it in my mind-
This is completely unsane...

Following the inspection of the part of the xovers a friend tell me a very wise observation: as an amplifier of this class and cost could be about potentiometers with aluminum handle not plastic, that detract much the final product and this is the type of detail that makes the difference, possibly for some it is silly if we follow the philosophy of Zapco removing what doesn´t brings something to the audio signal it is ok, philosophy I share equally, but of course I would also like to see those details that do not require great resources like these potentiometers with aluminum handle, an aluminum plate or other material stylish with the model not painted in one side of the amp, one with the classic RCA locknut as Sinfoni for example will be demostred something more strong….
But let go with earing impressions

The sound experience when listening is incredible, just as Zapco claim; this amplifier was connected into a vehicle with a set of 2-way Illusion Audio in active + JL audio sub instead of a Phoenix Gold Elite 5.1.
The 2 channels AB Elite took care of the set while the mono channel drive the sub in 2 ohms.
With the Zapco channels 1 to 4 for the set and the sub with channels 5 and 6 bridge at 8 ohms, nothing favorable for the Zapco on paper, however the authority with which the Zapco drive the JL sub was formidable, including with more quality than with PG.

To summarize I would like to cite the owner of the vehicle:
"I rate this kind of amplifiers into 2 categories. One that makes you open your eyes to detail and brightness of music (Elite 5.1), while the other leaves a smile on your face (Zapco).
Definitive.... I keep the smile!"


----------



## clix`g35

TommyDS said:


> Here I found a test of Z-150.4 in Russian audio mag Zapco Z-150.4 vs. MTX TH904 - avtozvuk.com (it is in Russian, you can use google translator) ...
> 
> Has anybody made a test of Z series against more SQ amps ? (eg: Genesis, Steg K, or more expensive Sinfoni, Audison Thesis, Steg MSK, etc). I would like to know, how Z-series compares in term of instruments separation, depth between instruments, imaging, staging, etc...
> 
> Thanks for all inputs


Does anyone have measurements on these amps, according to the translation form this page, the russians found the MTX had less noise then the Zapco, but claim the Zapco belong to a strange class of audio equipment that sounds better then it measures? This sounds like snake oil talk to me.


----------



## Elektra

Hi 

Yes I have tested the 150.6 against a Brax, EOS and DC360.4 - it's my humble opinion that the Zapco isn't as good as the above. 

A lot of people didn't like the review (see my previous post page 20 I think) but then again so many did like the amp so it's a bit subjective in my opinion. 

If your a wizard with setup and have all the goodies you can get anything to sound right! If your not and don't have the goodies - then a very experienced installer can get it to sound ok. 

At the end of the day what is SQ to you might not be SQ to me! 

Contact John from Zapco for exact setup help! Is the best answer anyone can give you on this forum. 

Don't listen to the preachers on this forum as its a very biased forum as no one will accept a product being bad or not sounding right - it's actually hilarious to see the hate mail I got for not liking the amp! But I do like the product! As I still use it in my car (DC360.4 and DSP6)

Massimo


----------



## Elektra

subwoofery said:


> The old C2K amp was on par with the Helix Competition A, Sinfoni Amplitude, DLS TA2, Focal FP Dual Monitor & better than Mosconi AS (as per Autohifi Magazin)
> Based on that, I wouldn't be surprised if the new Zapco Z series was at least on par with those as well...
> 
> Kelvin


$135 MTX outplayed a Z series amp - not my review! All of the above amps are well above the Z amps I am afraid! 

MTX is a flea market brand in this country! In the same class as Rockwood and lightning audio!

A very damaging review!


----------



## Golden Ear

Elektra said:


> $135 MTX outplayed a Z series amp - not my review! All of the above amps are well above the Z amps I am afraid!
> 
> MTX is a flea market brand in this country! In the same class as Rockwood and lightning audio!
> 
> A very damaging review!


Has anyone checked the credentials of the reviewer? I've noticed that some magazine reviews/reviewers are pretty useless. I trust more people here on DIYMA than the rags.


----------



## 12v Electronics

Elektra said:


> $135 MTX outplayed a Z series amp - not my review! All of the above amps are well above the Z amps I am afraid!
> 
> MTX is a flea market brand in this country! In the same class as Rockwood and lightning audio!
> 
> A very damaging review!


How come all of your 26 posts are in this thread and all are bashing the product?

Who crapped in your Cornflakes??


----------



## Elektra

Golden Ear said:


> Has anyone checked the credentials of the reviewer? I've noticed that some magazine reviews/reviewers are pretty useless. I trust more people here on DIYMA than the rags.


Really?

So a guy who gets paid to do a job with all his scientific calculations and measuring devices - probably tested 100's of products all of a sudden is not good enough as he put a $100 product higher than a $400+ product! 

I think you need to check the credentials of some of the guys who give such positive reviews here as clearly they not qualified to do so! 

Just apply a bit of common sense - $1000 amp is better than a $3000 amp (according to this forum) but in the real world doesn't match up to a $100 amp reviewed by a professional who actually gets paid to do so!


----------



## Golden Ear

Elektra said:


> Really?
> 
> So a guy who gets paid to do a job with all his scientific calculations and measuring devices - probably tested 100's of products all of a sudden is not good enough as he put a $100 product higher than a $400+ product!
> 
> I think you need to check the credentials of some of the guys who give such positive reviews here as clearly they not qualified to do so!
> 
> Just apply a bit of common sense - $1000 amp is better than a $3000 amp (according to this forum) but in the real world doesn't match up to a $100 amp reviewed by a professional who actually gets paid to do so!


I think your credentials are the ones that need to be checked. Are all 27 of your posts on this forum really in this one thread bashing the product? If so, your opinion is worthless. The "not so" common sense truth is that magazines get paid to write fluff pieces on gear because it translates into advertising dollars. I used to read them and take them for truth. Now, i'd rather have someone who has used the gear that doesn't have an agenda tell what they think. That's what forums are about, right?


----------



## Elektra

12v Electronics said:


> How come all of your 26 posts are in this thread and all are bashing the product?
> 
> Who crapped in your Cornflakes??


More of a egg kind of guy...

You will notice that at least 20 posts I am singing ZAPCO's praises but only the older stuff! I still use Zapco in my car..!


----------



## Elektra

Golden Ear said:


> I think your credentials are the ones that need to be checked. Are all 27 of your posts on this forum really in this one thread bashing the product? If so, your opinion is worthless. The "not so" common sense truth is that magazines get paid to write fluff pieces on gear because it translates into advertising dollars. I used to read them and take them for truth. Now, i'd rather have someone who has used the gear that doesn't have an agenda tell what they think. That's what forums are about, right?


Not so! What possible reason would a Russian reviewer would purposely give a Zapco product a bad review against another American product! - although you can't really call Zapco American anymore can you? No longer made in the USA as they so proudly printed in their manuals! 

My personal experience with the product is in line with the review given - I did not write that review!

I have used the 150.6! A friend of mine used the 150.2 with z8 come to the same conclusion! He still has the 150.6 he bought! Although he is trying desperately to get rid of it - to no avail! I think he is going to make the best of it and try to get it to work for him! 

I think you want everyone to tell you what you want to hear! 

Bud - it's your $$$ spend it on whatever makes you happy! You don't need to get any reassurance from anyone - just go and demo a car that has what your like in it and listen to other products and gauge what suites you! 

I would take any review on this forum with a pinch of salt including mine! Let your ears tell the story - good or bad!

Fair enough?


----------



## Richv72

I would be more suspicious with the positive reviews on this thread when they are comparing these korean amps to the c2k zapco's. The new z's look like good korean amps, nothing special, a dime a dozen. Seems like alot of people in this thread are either zapco dealers or have some special relationship with the zapco brand. But this is not the old zapco at all anymore. I thought about buying some of the new zapco but I cant see paying retail for them.


----------



## Golden Ear

Elektra said:


> although you can't really call Zapco American anymore can you? No longer made in the USA as they so proudly printed in their manuals!
> 
> Bud - it's your $$$ spend it on whatever makes you happy! You don't need to get any reassurance from anyone - just go and demo a car that has what your like in it and listen to other products and gauge what suites you!
> 
> I would take any review on this forum with a pinch of salt including mine! Let your ears tell the story - good or bad!
> 
> Fair enough?


Fair enough. I agree with you on the points above. I don't own a new Z series Zapco amp but I own a couple of their older amps and I love them.


----------



## Elektra

Golden Ear said:


> Fair enough. I agree with you on the points above. I don't own a new Z series Zapco amp but I own a couple of their older amps and I love them.


See if you can borrow one from a dealer or friend and demo it in your vehicle... Also study the internals to see what was used - a lot of reputable manufacturers state burr brown OPAMPs and Elna or mundorf caps and sanken chips etc - we all know that these are quality components found in high end home gear 

Zapco hasn't stated anything on their internals - but I can assure you that none of the above are present in their products 

Why hasn't anyone mentioned these points in this forum? All the reviews have orgasmic reviews about the packaging and looks of the amp - I can't see how a rectangular extruded aluminium heat sink built by the lowest bidder is considered beautiful as some have put it...

Just some points to consider... 

When real world reviews start coming out it kind of makes some of the forum reviews look like dealers creating a hype on an average product being sold on a good reputation for 5 times the price of its competitors which ultimately beat it in all reviews except in this forum!


----------



## BigRed

Please show us your new all MTX setup when u get everything in Elektra.


----------



## Elektra

After you - I am not interested in products made in the east...


----------



## darrenforeal

Elektra...stop using exclamation points on every freaking sentence you write. Unless you actually speak like a retard. Like your content, it is really annoying.


----------



## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> Elektra...stop using exclamation points on every freaking sentence you write. Unless you actually speak like a retard. Like your content, it is really annoying.


Haha! Your kidding right? Lol! I thought this was a sound forum - not an English lesson!


----------



## 12v Electronics

Elektra said:


> Haha! Your kidding right? Lol! I thought this was a sound forum - not an English lesson!


I'm not sure what this forum is about any more. MTX, music, ebay jewelry or oatmeal


----------



## TrickyRicky

Elektra said:


> See if you can borrow one from a dealer or friend and demo it in your vehicle... Also study the internals to see what was used - a lot of reputable manufacturers state burr brown OPAMPs and Elna or mundorf caps and sanken chips etc - we all know that these are quality components found in high end home gear
> 
> Zapco hasn't stated anything on their internals - but I can assure you that none of the above are present in their products
> 
> Why hasn't anyone mentioned these points in this forum? All the reviews have orgasmic reviews about the packaging and looks of the amp - I can't see how a rectangular extruded aluminium heat sink built by the lowest bidder is considered beautiful as some have put it...
> 
> Just some points to consider...
> 
> When real world reviews start coming out it kind of makes some of the forum reviews look like dealers creating a hype on an average product being sold on a good reputation for 5 times the price of its competitors which ultimately beat it in all reviews except in this forum!


I actually and specifically asked for higher resolution and close up pictures of the internals. Also (to remove the clamps/clips off the transistors) what outputs it utilized.

Now you have to keep in mind though, that a great design doesn't need great/high end components. But some will argue otherwise, I've seen some low-end capacitors used on some very high claimed "SQ" amplifiers, which amazed me when they are getting all the rave...so I guess design is over component quality. Don't get me wrong...why not use both?





12v Electronics said:


> I'm not sure what this forum is about any more. MTX, music, ebay jewelry or oatmeal


VERY TRUE, lol.:laugh::laugh:






Elektra said:


> I suspect your right! We have all lost the plot here! Don't forget the English lessons as well! Apparently I am not allowed to use certain punctuation marks - offends some people.. Lol!



Lets put it this way...without it we wouldn't be able to express ourselves on these forums, lol.


----------



## Elektra

12v Electronics said:


> I'm not sure what this forum is about any more. MTX, music, ebay jewelry or oatmeal


I suspect your right! We have all lost the plot here! Don't forget the English lessons as well! Apparently I am not allowed to use certain punctuation marks - offends some people.. Lol!


----------



## EditTim

Elektra said:


> I suspect your right! We have all lost the plot here! Don't forget the English lessons as well! Apparently I am not allowed to use certain punctuation marks - offends some people.. Lol!


It doesn't offend people, it _annoys_ people.

You use exclamation points instead of periods. Kind of like writing in ALL CAPS, WHICH IS ANNOYING AS HELL.


----------



## Elektra

EditTim said:


> It doesn't offend people, it _annoys_ people.
> 
> You use exclamation points instead of periods. Kind of like writing in ALL CAPS, WHICH IS ANNOYING AS HELL.


It considered correct English - sorry if that annoys you!


----------



## Golden Ear

EditTim said:


> It doesn't offend people, it _annoys_ people.
> 
> You use exclamation points instead of periods. Kind of like writing in ALL CAPS, WHICH IS ANNOYING AS HELL.


I concur. You don't have to be an English teacher for that crap to be annoying.


----------



## darrenforeal

EditTim said:


> It doesn't offend people, it _annoys_ people.
> 
> You use exclamation points instead of periods. Kind of like writing in ALL CAPS, WHICH IS ANNOYING AS HELL.





Golden Ear said:


> I concur. You don't have to be an English teacher for that crap to be annoying.



DING DING DING


----------



## BigRed

I do find it odd that your only existence on this forum have been posts on this thread stating your displeasure for the new zapco stuff.


----------



## TrickyRicky

BigRed said:


> I do find it odd that your only existence on this forum have been posts on this thread stating your displeasure for the new zapco stuff.


Sounds to me like he knows something, don't know why one would want to continue bashing a company.


----------



## weshole

It really doesn't matter what he says. There will always be haters. I got one am overjoyed at the quality of the new Z Series amps and think its a very good replacement for the reference series.
You can't keep everyone happy all the time. While they may lose a few customers with how they have changed things, they very well could/should expand their customer base at the same time.


----------



## clix`g35

While I agree that Elecktra can be a bit annoying, I find just as annoying the continual claims that its a magically beautiful amp, and sounds like rainbows, but no one here is willing to make measurements or send high res picture of the internals for us to review. 

Do we have anyone here who isn't affiliated with Zapco and has any measurements or high res pictures they would like to share? 

Just curious because I am interested in this amp, I called Zapco and was close to purchasing a Z150.6 @ full retail and still consider the amp, but all the unicorn fart claims on this thread about music coming to life when it was dead before read like snake oil to me. So i went with 2 jl600/4 in the mean time.


----------



## Richv72

The zapco amps look to use good quality caps, lenox i think. Im guessing the chips are also good name brand ones. Its the cheap looking korean case and terminals I hate.


----------



## weshole

clix`g35 said:


> While I agree that Elecktra can be a bit annoying, I find just as annoying the continual claims that its a magically beautiful amp, and sounds like rainbows, but no one here is willing to make measurements or send high res picture of the internals for us to review.
> 
> Do we have anyone here who isn't affiliated with Zapco and has any measurements or high res pictures they would like to share?
> 
> Just curious because I am interested in this amp, I called Zapco and was close to purchasing a Z150.6 @ full retail and still consider the amp, but all the unicorn fart claims on this thread about music coming to life when it was dead before read like snake oil to me. So i went with 2 jl600/4 in the mean time.


While where I work sells and installs Zapco product, my claims are not based on that.
I do not have any measurements or hi-res gut shots to back my (opinion) on the Z series amps. My opinions are just that.
I know that they are not the be all/end all of amps. There is always something better out there. What I'm saying is that in my experience, these new amps perform superbly. And I don't think that the quality has suffered. This is one thing that time itself will tell as they have not been on the market very long.


----------



## aj1735

Aren't there gut shots already on the forum somewhere. I remember seeing quite a few if I remember correctly.


----------



## weshole

Yup. On this thread iirc. On my phone so I'm not gonna try to look


----------



## barracuda777

Page 12 and 19 they are some pictures.

I saw others on the forum but i didn´t remenber well where


----------



## Golden Ear

barracuda777 said:


> Page 12 and 19 they are some pictures.
> 
> I saw others on the forum but i didn´t remenber well where


Iirc, JFreak has some in his build log.


----------



## nepl29

i really cant understand the bashing of the Zapco amps. I demo 2 vehicles this past weekend both with Zapco Z amps and Esotars2 drivers. Both vehicles sounded phenomenal. One of them competed at a Meca event and it won first in its class. If i didnt absolutely love my Brax MX4s i would have them in my car right now.


----------



## Ivan84

I own one of the vehicles that Nelson is referencing and can vouch that the zapco amps sound great. My previous system had mosconi amps and I am very pleased with the trade out.


----------



## Golden Ear

Ivan84 said:


> I own one of the vehicles that Nelson is referencing and can vouch that the zapco amps sound great. My previous system had mosconi amps and I am very pleased with the trade out.


I'm curious as to which Mosconi amps you had and how they compare and contrast. Thanks in advance.


----------



## james2266

Golden Ear said:


> I'm curious as to which Mosconi amps you had and how they compare and contrast. Thanks in advance.


I'll hugely second that question as well. Which Mosconi amps as well?


----------



## ACJohn

Elektra said:


> See if you can borrow one from a dealer or friend and demo it in your vehicle... Also study the internals to see what was used - a lot of reputable manufacturers state burr brown OPAMPs and Elna or mundorf caps and sanken chips etc - we all know that these are quality components found in high end home gear
> 
> Zapco hasn't stated anything on their internals - but I can assure you that none of the above are present in their products
> 
> Why hasn't anyone mentioned these points in this forum? All the reviews have orgasmic reviews about the packaging and looks of the amp - I can't see how a rectangular extruded aluminium heat sink built by the lowest bidder is considered beautiful as some have put it...
> 
> Just some points to consider...
> 
> When real world reviews start coming out it kind of makes some of the forum reviews look like dealers creating a hype on an average product being sold on a good reputation for 5 times the price of its competitors which ultimately beat it in all reviews except in this forum!



Massimo I do not understand why you write me so often for advice and technical help and compliment my customer service, yet continue to bash me here on the forum. You don't like the 150.6? Fine: so far in all the world you are one. But that's OK, I am sure there are others who are simply less vocal. 

I just don't understand why you, in particular, seem to have this vendetta going on.

A previous poster left complaints about the pots, the packaging, and just about everything else about the 150.6 ...until he turned it on. Then he left this 
" But let go with earing impressions
The sound experience when listening is incredible, just as Zapco claim; this amplifier was connected into a vehicle with a set of 2-way Illusion Audio in active + JL audio sub instead of a Phoenix Gold Elite 5.1.
The 2 channels AB Elite took care of the set while the mono channel drive the sub in 2 ohms.
With the Zapco channels 1 to 4 for the set and the sub with channels 5 and 6 bridge at 8 ohms, nothing favorable for the Zapco on paper, however the authority with which the Zapco drive the JL sub was formidable, including with more quality than with PG."

Also you "Assure" people things of that are not true "I can assure you that none of the above are present in their products" 
If fact the Z-150.2 DID use Burr Brown Op amps. All amps would have used Burr Brown except that BB does not make an op amp in the correct package. 
HOWEVER, we are removing the Burr Brown from the 150.2 and going with the Analog Devices OP275 for better sound. We are also changing the op amps in the other amps for a higher voltage unit. I am proud of our internals and as we find newer and better (that make an audible difference) we will continue to adapt them. 

If you want to "assure" people of things,you should try to be accurate.

John


----------



## Ivan84

I apologize for my previous misleading post. I changed my system from mosconi amps, esotec speakers and the ms-8 to esotars, zapco amps and the 6to8 and the improvement is significant in every way. I won't pretend to have ears of such listening sophistication to be able to comment on which of the improvements can be attributed to the amp change alone. My point, simply, is that the sound in my car powered by zapco is superb.


----------



## barracuda777

ACJohn said:


> ...If fact the Z-150.2 DID use Burr Brown Op amps. All amps would have used Burr Brown except that BB does not make an op amp in the correct package.
> HOWEVER, we are removing the Burr Brown from the 150.2 and going with the Analog Devices OP275 for better sound. We are also changing the op amps in the other amps for a higher voltage unit. I am proud of our internals and as we find newer and better (that make an audible difference) we will continue to adapt them.
> 
> John


Mmmm very interesting. Are you going to used OP275 in Z150.4 and Z150.6?
Or OPamP are different in the 4 and 6 channels?
What was the purpose the 2 channel was using BB and the other ones no?


----------



## Golden Ear

Do these amps come with a spec sheet of actual measured power? My old z220 is listed as 115x2 @ 4ohms but actually does 160x2.


----------



## weshole

Golden Ear said:


> Do these amps come with a spec sheet of actual measured power? My old z220 is listed as 115x2 @ 4ohms but actually does 160x2.


 Neither my Z2KD or my Z400.2 came with a spec/birth sheet.


----------



## Tnutt19

Electra why is it that you continue to hang around and pursue to bash the Zapco amplifiers? You stated your opinion and it lasted for multiple pages. Now when I come back to see what is new on this thread months later and still see the topic of discussion you bashing the amplifiers whenever someone post a positive review/install of them that is just pathetic. You stated your opinion, we get it you didn't like them, now move on unless you have something new to add! (You see what I did right there, I properly used the exclamation point) If they truly aren't for you then why hang around this thread, it should not matter to you. Go contribute to a thread that is more tasteful to your likes.


----------



## BigRed

I tested a z150 with the mods and it is an improvement over what was already a great sounding amplifier. Is there a mind blowing difference ? No. But it is audibly noticeable


----------



## Golden Ear

BigRed said:


> I tested a z150 with the mods and it is an improvement over what was already a great sounding amplifier. Is there a mind blowing difference ? No. But it is audibly noticeable


Jim, do you know what the actual power is that these put out out of the box? Hopefully it hasn't been covered already somewhere back in the thread.:worried:


----------



## TommyDS

Golden Ear: according to the measurements in the russian Avtozvuk mag , the Z150.4 puts out [email protected] and [email protected] at 14,4V and 1% THD


----------



## Richv72

Just noticed on ebay woofers etc is selling the new zapco now.


----------



## weshole

Richv72 said:


> Just noticed on ebay woofers etc is selling the new zapco now.


Wow, they are. Good luck with any warranty should such a need arise.


----------



## Richv72

weshole said:


> Wow, they are. Good luck with any warranty should such a need arise.


This is odd, it says on the listing that they are zapco authorized dealers. 

Zapco Z 400 2 Amp 2 Channel 2680W Max Subwoofers Speakers Bass Car Amplifier New | eBay


----------



## Golden Ear

What's interesting is that woofers has it listed on eBay but not on their own site.


----------



## Golden Ear

TommyDS said:


> Golden Ear: according to the measurements in the russian Avtozvuk mag , the Z150.4 puts out [email protected] and [email protected] at 14,4V and 1% THD


Thank you Tommy. Sorry, I missed this post earlier.

So they do very close to rated power. Not much more but at least it's not less than rated.


----------



## TommyDS

Wow, Zapco has a new modern website  Thumbs up ...


----------



## weshole

TommyDS said:


> Wow, Zapco has a new modern website  Thumbs up ...


They must have just launched the new site. 
One thing I noticed is that there is no longer a "no authorized internet dealers" or whatever they had previously on there.

Maybe John can chime in and clarify if indeed Woofers Etc. is an authorized dealer?
I have no beef with it as they seem to be adhering to MAP pricing. But it would be good info to know


----------



## captainobvious

Internal pics of the Z-150.6 ?

If I make the switch from my current Arc CXLR amps, it's going to be to either the new Zapco Z's or the Mosconi AS.

I'd love to get feedback from those with experience on these


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> Internal pics of the Z-150.6 ?
> 
> If I make the switch from my current Arc CXLR amps, it's going to be to either the new Zapco Z's or the Mosconi AS.
> 
> I'd love to get feedback from those with experience on these


Hi Captain

I looked at the Mosconi - they look nice and have decent independent reviews - don't really like the look of their board - very empty! Not that this has anything to do with sq but just saying... 

You should try and demo them... Unfortunately I didn't get the chance to listen to them as not many folk have them..

On a side note - I see you have a P99 isn't the 6to8 overkill? As that's means you would have to switch off your DSP to make the 6to8 work? My brother has the P99 not sure what the 6to8 does that the P99 doesn't do already? 

I would avoid too many extra sources after your P99 to avoid noise issues...


----------



## goodstuff

TommyDS said:


> Golden Ear: according to the measurements in the russian Avtozvuk mag , the Z150.4 puts out [email protected] and [email protected] at 14,4V and 1% THD


A bit o.t/ but I have been reading Avtozvuk.com through google translate....
I need my adjectives before my nouns back.


----------



## captainobvious

Bringing this back up. 

I'm wondering why the website still lacks the updates to include the full specs of the products and/or downloadable user manuals. I emailed John to get a copy of one, but really this stuff should be up there at launch of the new products...no?


----------



## mathematics

i dunno, man. Zapco does and have made amazing amps. they sound great and are built to last.


----------



## captainobvious

mathematics said:


> i dunno, man. Zapco does and have made amazing amps. they sound great and are built to last.


Oh I'm not worried about that 

I own some Zapco product and would consider purchasing more. Product documentation is seriously lacking though on the website. Hard to make informed purchases without it


----------



## mathematics

wasn't in response to you. i agree with you. i was referring to the zapco bashers. Zapco's website is terrible. the only one worse is Tru lol. Tru's last update was like 2011



captainobvious said:


> Oh I'm not worried about that
> 
> I own some Zapco product and would consider purchasing more. Product documentation is seriously lacking though on the website. Hard to make informed purchases without it


----------



## captainobvious

For those wondering, the Z series class A/B amps have input sensitivity range of 200mv-8volts, no internal fusing and FR of 10hz-30Khz +/- 1db. 
There is no mention in the manual as to what the max wire size is for speaker and ground connections. They do look very substantial though so I'm guessing at least 4 gauge power (maybe even 2ga/ or 0awg) and at least 8 gauge speaker. I'll check these later to verify.

The fuse requirement ratings for each are:

Z-150.2 25A x 2
Z-400.2 100A
Z-150.4 80A
Z-150.6 100A

Operating voltages are 10VDC-15.5VDC


----------



## captainobvious

Following up... power and ground wires can be up to 1/0g and speaker wires up to 8g.

Still no manuals listed on the Zapco site and even the hard copy doesn't give enough useful info. In fact, the included manual with the Z series mentions nothing about all of the crossover and other assorted controls on the amp.


----------



## Jcharger13

captainobvious said:


> Following up... power and ground wires can be up to 1/0g and speaker wires up to 8g.
> 
> Still no manuals listed on the Zapco site and even the hard copy doesn't give enough useful info. In fact, the included manual with the Z series mentions nothing about all of the crossover and other assorted controls on the amp.



I was just on the Zapco site and the manuals are there for the Z & ZX series and their other amps. They are @ support/tech info. They are pretty basic, like you said about the hard copies. 

How do you like your Z series amps captain?


----------



## vivmike

BigRed said:


> I tested a z150 with the mods and it is an improvement over what was already a great sounding amplifier. Is there a mind blowing difference ? No. But it is audibly noticeable


Sorry for dumb question...

What mod can be done on the Z amps?


----------



## barracuda777

Any news about Z8R ACJohn?


----------



## highspeed

It's been about six months since I installed my Zapco DSP and Z amps. It only took a few hours of adjusting to sound great and a few more after that to sound better than any car stereo I've ever owned. I would like to thank John at Zapco for his outstanding professionalism and product support. Zapco products have lived up to my very high expectations.


----------



## Elektra

highspeed said:


> It's been about six months since I installed my Zapco DSP and Z amps. It only took a few hours of adjusting to sound great and a few more after that to sound better than any car stereo I've ever owned. I would like to thank John at Zapco for his outstanding professionalism and product support. Zapco products have lived up to my very high expectations.


Congrats on your stuff...what is the system layout? I guess some have higher expectations than others! - what did have before?


----------



## Matt R

Zapco has offered an opamp and coupling cap upgrade.

FYI, John is perseuing good sound quality pretty hard. I'm proud to be affiliated with him and Zapco!

These amps are bad ass BTW, one of my cars won a championship in Mod Street class with a high enough score to win the class above her too. 





vivmike said:


> Sorry for dumb question...
> 
> What mod can be done on the Z amps?


----------



## robert_wrath

Matt R said:


> Zapco has offered an opamp and coupling cap upgrade.
> 
> FYI, John is perseuing good sound quality pretty hard. I'm proud to be affiliated with him and Zapco!
> 
> These amps are bad ass BTW, one of my cars won a championship in Mod Street class with a high enough score to win the class above her too.


Matt R, Are you still Modifying Zapco Products?


----------



## Elektra

Matt R said:


> Zapco has offered an opamp and coupling cap upgrade.
> 
> FYI, John is perseuing good sound quality pretty hard. I'm proud to be affiliated with him and Zapco!
> 
> These amps are bad ass BTW, one of my cars won a championship in Mod Street class with a high enough score to win the class above her too.


Matt... I have no doubt regarding your credentials... But how come their are no international reviews on these amps yet? They have been out for a while now? The new GZPA 2T amp has already been reviewed and won a few awards and it's not even a year old! 

The previous C2K and DC ref amps were equally vaunted on numerous forums mainly by the same guys - mostly Zapco sponsored guys (let's face it it's true) and when international magazines and reviewers reviewed those amps they didn't feature much - mostly in the class below Reference about 10-15 points behind other brands. They scored highly due to technical features like on board DSP and balanced lines etc not so much SQ!

I have to say I recently had a chance to listen to the C2K 2.5x 4x50 as I got it as part of a trade - and I was very disappointed in the SQ! Didn't sound great at all! (No eq just gain settings off a dsp6) 

Please could you shed some light on this topic - it's one thing to say nice things about a product it's another when it's actually true... One can't believe everything being said in forums as you
Have no idea what agenda is being submitted as sponsored Zapco guys understandingly won't say anything bad! 

Competitions don't always mean much as a guy who knows how to tune a car better than the next guy will always win - that is very much the case here the current champion runs old equipment - not even expensive either but still wins against guys with much better equipment! It's because his install and tuning ability is much better! 

As someone said to me - you can have a F1 car but if you don't have a driver and the mechanics and R&D it's useless! But give a guy a tuned M5 then their is potential much like you can have F1 speakers radio processor amps if you don't have a guy who knows what he is doing then you will get the same results with kenwood equipment...,


----------



## captainobvious

We'll put a Zapco Z series amp up against a bunch of others in my upcoming AB blind tests. I'll be interested to see the results of the testing group and how things shake out.


----------



## Golden Ear

Elektra said:


> Matt... I have no doubt regarding your credentials... But how come their are no international reviews on these amps yet? They have been out for a while now? The new GZPA 2T amp has already been reviewed and won a few awards and it's not even a year old!
> 
> The previous C2K and DC ref amps were equally vaunted on numerous forums mainly by the same guys - mostly Zapco sponsored guys (let's face it it's true) and when international magazines and reviewers reviewed those amps they didn't feature much - mostly in the class below Reference about 10-15 points behind other brands. They scored highly due to technical features like on board DSP and balanced lines etc not so much SQ!
> 
> I have to say I recently had a chance to listen to the C2K 2.5x 4x50 as I got it as part of a trade - and I was very disappointed in the SQ! Didn't sound great at all! (No eq just gain settings off a dsp6)
> 
> Please could you shed some light on this topic - it's one thing to say nice things about a product it's another when it's actually true... One can't believe everything being said in forums as you
> Have no idea what agenda is being submitted as sponsored Zapco guys understandingly won't say anything bad!
> 
> Competitions don't always mean much as a guy who knows how to tune a car better than the next guy will always win - that is very much the case here the current champion runs old equipment - not even expensive either but still wins against guys with much better equipment! It's because his install and tuning ability is much better!
> 
> As someone said to me - you can have a F1 car but if you don't have a driver and the mechanics and R&D it's useless! But give a guy a tuned M5 then their is potential much like you can have F1 speakers radio processor amps if you don't have a guy who knows what he is doing then you will get the same results with kenwood equipment...,


Maybe Zapco only sends defective amps to South Africa?


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> We'll put a Zapco Z series amp up against a bunch of others in my upcoming AB blind tests. I'll be interested to see the results of the testing group and how things shake out.


Sounds like a good plan - let me know what amps you plan on using!


----------



## captainobvious

Elektra said:


> Sounds like a good plan - let me know what amps you plan on using!



Thus far we have some oldies and some newer ones:

Diamond Audio D7
Xtant X series (old chrome ones)
Phoenix Gold (2011) Ti series
JL Audio HD 
Arc Audio XDi
Zuki Eleets
Zapco Z series
Phoenix Gold Elite 
Soundstream Reference
Jensen $40 Walmart special


----------



## Elektra

Golden Ear said:


> Maybe Zapco only sends defective amps to South Africa?


I don't know really! My mind is baffled really! Maybe my standards of SQ is different to others? 

But it would sure help if their were proper reviews out there! Would Zapco initiate something like that or would the press just test them without the manufacturers knowledge?

Maybe Zapco don't want reviews done for various reasons and rely more on these kind of forums to spread the word? 

If that is the case - one just has to be careful of blatant over biased opinions - I have noticed that in the past - it doesn't hurt to be honest if your sponsored your sponsored - great! But who really cares at the end? As long we can all have a decent chat about a product! Right? 

The case in point was that whole thing about Darrenforreal removing his TRU amp and did not state the proper reason for this! I subsequently read on another forum that he had to remove the TRU due to being given a Zapco sponsorship! That made sense to me as to why for the purposes of that thread he blatantly left that bit of info out as removing a $7000 amp and using a $900 amp in its place was more for financial reasons than anything else!

It's ok if a $7000 amp sounds better than a $1200 amp - really nobody can fight you on that! But at least be honest about it and not tell people otherwise! Just unprofessional and anyone with a brain can see through that and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth as well! 

So the reality check is that when people say Z amps are the best in the world - I have to ask have you possibly heard all the amps in the world? And which respected reputable institution confirms this?

Or maybe John sent seriously bad prototype garbage to us and saved all the good stuff for you folk?


----------



## subwoofery

Elektra said:


> Matt... I have no doubt regarding your credentials... But how come their are no international reviews on these amps yet? They have been out for a while now? The new GZPA 2T amp has already been reviewed and won a few awards and it's not even a year old!
> 
> The previous C2K and DC ref amps were equally vaunted on numerous forums mainly by the same guys - mostly Zapco sponsored guys (let's face it it's true) and when international magazines and reviewers reviewed those amps they didn't feature much - mostly in the class below Reference about 10-15 points behind other brands. They scored highly due to technical features like on board DSP and balanced lines etc not so much SQ!
> 
> I have to say I recently had a chance to listen to the C2K 2.5x 4x50 as I got it as part of a trade - and I was very disappointed in the SQ! Didn't sound great at all! (No eq just gain settings off a dsp6)
> 
> Please could you shed some light on this topic - it's one thing to say nice things about a product it's another when it's actually true... One can't believe everything being said in forums as you
> Have no idea what agenda is being submitted as sponsored Zapco guys understandingly won't say anything bad!
> 
> Competitions don't always mean much as a guy who knows how to tune a car better than the next guy will always win - that is very much the case here the current champion runs old equipment - not even expensive either but still wins against guys with much better equipment! It's because his install and tuning ability is much better!
> 
> As someone said to me - you can have a F1 car but if you don't have a driver and the mechanics and R&D it's useless! But give a guy a tuned M5 then their is potential much like you can have F1 speakers radio processor amps if you don't have a guy who knows what he is doing then you will get the same results with kenwood equipment...,


It is true that the new Z amps have not been reviewed yet but regarding the old C2K, you're flat out wrong. 
The 4.0 has been reviewed in Autohifi (German magazine) and it came out as being as good SQ wise as say a Sinfoni 50.4 or a Helix A4 Competition... 
The dual mono 9.0 XD (was it a Class T amp?) has been reviewed and the SQ score was better than the Mosconi AS 200.2, the DLS A2, the Ground Zero GZUA 2225SQ, the Steg K2/03e, the Soundstream REF800.2 

I'd like to know what kind of test did you do to review the C2K 2.5x you heard recently. 

Kelvin


----------



## captainobvious

And very importantly...HOW the testing was done 

Level matched, blind AB is the way to go.


----------



## subwoofery

captainobvious said:


> And very importantly...HOW the testing was done
> 
> Level matched, blind AB is the way to go.


Side note, 
Would be interested in seeing a Zed Leviathan included in your test if you can have access to one  

Kelvin


----------



## captainobvious

subwoofery said:


> Side note,
> Would be interested in seeing a Zed Leviathan included in your test if you can have access to one
> 
> Kelvin


If someone wanted to send one out, great.  
Most of these amps I've had to purchase on my own though. Only a couple were lent out for the tests. (Zuki/Elite)

I'd probably cap it at around 10 amps anyway though as the testing would just take too long.


----------



## thehatedguy

I'm loaning my HSS if anyone local is going up and wants to take it with them. Dunno if anyone from the area is going, but if they are, you are welcome to use it.

And Kelvin, the 9.0 was a Class T amp.


----------



## captainobvious

Thanks 

I doubt anyone is making the trek up though unfortunately.


----------



## Elektra

subwoofery said:


> It is true that the new Z amps have not been reviewed yet but regarding the old C2K, you're flat out wrong.
> The 4.0 has been reviewed in Autohifi (German magazine) and it came out as being as good SQ wise as say a Sinfoni 50.4 or a Helix A4 Competition...
> The dual mono 9.0 XD (was it a Class T amp?) has been reviewed and the SQ score was better than the Mosconi AS 200.2, the DLS A2, the Ground Zero GZUA 2225SQ, the Steg K2/03e, the Soundstream REF800.2
> 
> I'd like to know what kind of test did you do to review the C2K 2.5x you heard recently.
> 
> Kelvin


Kelvin

I do remember the amps in Auto HiFi - I also remember that the 4.0 was the highest ranked Zapco amp - aside from the 9.0 which fell in the sub section - the 4.0 still fell well short of the top ranked amps according to the list I believe the VRX amp had a 48 out of 50 SQ rating same as the Brax X2400 GE - in terms of sound the 4.0 was well behind the reference amps and I believe the Helix A4 was rated higher in sound but the 4.0 scored better in other depts which boosted the overall rating of the 4.0

Amps like the DC650.6 got in the 30's out of 50 for sound... Any rate regarding the C2K 2.5 ..... 

I traded this amp from a guy on our local forum who wanted my Morel Ultimo 12 through a cunning deal I managed to do a direct swop with a small cash difference to me. 

Now I have never heard a C2K amp so I was toying with the idea to swop out my current amp in my car and sell either one - basically if the C2K sounded better than my existing amp I would keep it and sell the other. 

The reputation of the C2K was nothing short of legendary and very expensive new! Based on that I was interested in how it sounded!

Went to a friends house - who knew these amps well and was a SQ nut of note this guy can tell you what frequencies not right - superb ears and knowledge and always game for tests!

My system was very basic - Alpine F1 2 way speakers with Pioneer P90 CD player Zapco DSP6 (full balanced one) - No sub! 4 channel amp

Tweeters run through the passive and full range on the amp mids running at 60hz HP at 12db if I can recall - gains on amp flat for both and set full range DSP 6 sets the gains and sensitivity!

So basically plug and play - I removed my 4 channel amp and installed the C2K set the amp to balanced and full range and listened to my normal music - the sound was very flat IMO no real dynamics to the highs didn't sound great! We both agreed! 

So we decided the play with the gains to juice the amp up a bit to give it more power - didn't really help went as far as turning the gains to maximum (which I don't like) and still no real improvement 

After a few listening tests - I removed the amp and replaced it with my current amp and bang excellent dynamics far better! Sounded like a good home hifi so I sold the C2K and kept my current amp!

Tbh I was quite surprised at the result - I spoke to someone on the forum who was the original owner of this amp and he replaced it with the 4.0 I asked him what the differences were and he said they sounded the same but the 4.0 had a lot more power!

The guy that I was with had 2 x 4.0 amps and he said to me afterwards that my amp was a lot better!


----------



## robert_wrath

thehatedguy said:


> And Kelvin, *the 9.0 was a Class T amp*.



I thought it was a Class D Amp created way back in the early 2000's.


----------



## thehatedguy

Same difference. Class "T" is a class D using a Tripath chip...there really is no such thing as class T other than marketing/trademark purposes.




robert_wrath said:


> I thought it was a Class D Amp created way back in the early 2000's.


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> Thus far we have some oldies and some newer ones:
> 
> Diamond Audio D7
> Xtant X series (old chrome ones)
> Phoenix Gold (2011) Ti series
> JL Audio HD
> Arc Audio XDi
> Zuki Eleets
> Zapco Z series
> Phoenix Gold Elite
> Soundstream Reference
> Jensen $40 Walmart special


Sounds good! Don't know half of them! Try and get some VRX and Voce amps if you can...


----------



## robert_wrath

thehatedguy said:


> Same difference. Class "T" is a class D using a Tripath chip...there really is no such thing as class T other than marketing/trademark purposes.


Thanx for the clarification, never understood the differences between the two.


----------



## captainobvious

Elektra said:


> Sounds good! Don't know half of them! Try and get some VRX and Voce amps if you can...


I'd love to get a Voce or Thesis in there, but I don't know anyone with one available. :blush:

The Diamond Audio amp is a rebadge of the old Esoteric Audio E7 series and they are excellent, although harder to come by these days.

The Xtant X604 is (I believe) from 2001-ish and represents the last of the "quality" models Xtant usa produced before going downhill.

The Phoenix Gold Elite has some reviews out there (excellent ones at that) and is probably one of the most stout new amps available from a parts-quality-design standpoint. The Ti (titanium series-2011) is also one of the amps produced in Phoenix Golds "rebirth" and has excellent build quality.

The JL Audio HD amps are considered some of (if not THE) best class D car audio amps on the market. Really nice clean power in a compact, well built design.
The Arc XDi are Arc Audio's upper line class D model. The build quality is not to the same level as some of the others, but we'll see how they perform in the sound department.

The Zuki Eleet is certainly the smallest vendor as I believe these are still hand assembled, but they are finished nicely and have a good reputation for quality sound.

The Zapco, well we know that one but opinions differ there of course 

It should be very exciting to see what happens when the testing group has no idea which amp is playing and has to judge solely on sound. I want to see how the $50 Jensen amp fares.


----------



## Matt R

I have no idea, I dont think i'm the right guy to answer your question. You sure seem to already have your opinion made up, so what is a review going to do? Change your mind? Doesnt sound like Zapco is for you, maybe you should go find a Audison thread or Tru thread to talk about a product you like.

I use Zapco exclusively because they have great products and the people that run the show (John, Shelly, ect) are really good people. I had a choice when I first started competing and I a/b'd several amps, Zapco won pretty easily. I was not a sponsored guy then and paid for my equipment. 

Seems like every 3rd of 4th post is by you and you dont like the products. We get it, you think they suck. Anyone that reads the thread will be aware of your opinion. Seems like you keep bad mouthing the product and people will begin to think you have another motive instead of thinking this is just your subjective opinion.

I have some good advise for you, dont buy Zapco because you dont like em.

Matt


Elektra said:


> Matt... I have no doubt regarding your credentials... But how come their are no international reviews on these amps yet? They have been out for a while now? The new GZPA 2T amp has already been reviewed and won a few awards and it's not even a year old!
> 
> The previous C2K and DC ref amps were equally vaunted on numerous forums mainly by the same guys - mostly Zapco sponsored guys (let's face it it's true) and when international magazines and reviewers reviewed those amps they didn't feature much - mostly in the class below Reference about 10-15 points behind other brands. They scored highly due to technical features like on board DSP and balanced lines etc not so much SQ!
> 
> I have to say I recently had a chance to listen to the C2K 2.5x 4x50 as I got it as part of a trade - and I was very disappointed in the SQ! Didn't sound great at all! (No eq just gain settings off a dsp6)
> 
> Please could you shed some light on this topic - it's one thing to say nice things about a product it's another when it's actually true... One can't believe everything being said in forums as you
> Have no idea what agenda is being submitted as sponsored Zapco guys understandingly won't say anything bad!
> 
> Competitions don't always mean much as a guy who knows how to tune a car better than the next guy will always win - that is very much the case here the current champion runs old equipment - not even expensive either but still wins against guys with much better equipment! It's because his install and tuning ability is much better!
> 
> As someone said to me - you can have a F1 car but if you don't have a driver and the mechanics and R&D it's useless! But give a guy a tuned M5 then their is potential much like you can have F1 speakers radio processor amps if you don't have a guy who knows what he is doing then you will get the same results with kenwood equipment...,


----------



## Matt R

I took a break from doing modification work for a bit. I am starting to take on a few jobs now. Trying to take it slow, I have alot going on.

Knowing all the Zapco products over the years and having access to all the schematics, I must say things are looking good. The persuit of sound quality is Johns #1 priority. 

Matt



robert_wrath said:


> Matt R, Are you still Modifying Zapco Products?


----------



## ntimd8n-k5

captainobvious said:


> If someone wanted to send one out, great.
> Most of these amps I've had to purchase on my own though. Only a couple were lent out for the tests. (Zuki/Elite)
> 
> I'd probably cap it at around 10 amps anyway though as the testing would just take too long.


I've got a Leviathan v1 I will lend you for the test, when is it going to be?


----------



## captainobvious

ntimd8n-k5 said:


> I've got a Leviathan v1 I will lend you for the test, when is it going to be?


Saturday Feb 8th is the planned date, unless something changes 

If you'd like to send in the Leviathan to include in the tests, shoot me a pm.

Thanks!

-Steve


----------



## subwoofery

ntimd8n-k5 said:


> I've got a Leviathan v1 I will lend you for the test, when is it going to be?


Sweet  A v.1 should do it. Thanks 

Kelvin


----------



## Elektra

Matt R said:


> I have no idea, I dont think i'm the right guy to answer your question. You sure seem to already have your opinion made up, so what is a review going to do? Change your mind? Doesnt sound like Zapco is for you, maybe you should go find a Audison thread or Tru thread to talk about a product you like.
> 
> I use Zapco exclusively because they have great products and the people that run the show (John, Shelly, ect) are really good people. I had a choice when I first started competing and I a/b'd several amps, Zapco won pretty easily. I was not a sponsored guy then and paid for my equipment.
> 
> Seems like every 3rd of 4th post is by you and you dont like the products. We get it, you think they suck. Anyone that reads the thread will be aware of your opinion. Seems like you keep bad mouthing the product and people will begin to think you have another motive instead of thinking this is just your subjective opinion.
> 
> I have some good advise for you, dont buy Zapco because you dont like em.
> 
> Matt


Fair enough...

It seems that some make big statements here but don't really have anything concrete to back up the statements!

I probably have more Zapco products than most on this forum so yes I can have a say 

The reviews by forum members are nothing short of drop everything this is it! Correct me if I am wrong! But yet the amps are being heavily modded by you and Zapco - why mod a great product? No one else does? The only mods Brax has done in 13years on the X series is add crossovers in the .2 range - Audison don't do it? 

Neither did old Zapco? Correct me if I Am wrong? 

Point is Matt it's clear that Zapco are playing catch up with a product that had some uncertainty around it - a lot of people here are saying the new Zapco products are not great! Infact their has been an influx of 2nd hand products for sale - more than you would expect from Zapco!

Just saying .... Reviews would be great because it backs up everyone's statements and makes forums reviews much more plausible. I would buy Zapco again but I would have to be made a believer again!

Some of the comments here don't actually help the brand - instead they hold back the brand by stroking its ego without making constructive comments on making the next version better thus having a very good product! 

People must stop thinking about bottom line profits and add the ingredients to the product to make it the "best" even if it costs $100 more to make - guys will pay for that! 

Don't you think?


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> I'd love to get a Voce or Thesis in there, but I don't know anyone with one available. :blush:
> 
> The Diamond Audio amp is a rebadge of the old Esoteric Audio E7 series and they are excellent, although harder to come by these days.
> 
> The Xtant X604 is (I believe) from 2001-ish and represents the last of the "quality" models Xtant usa produced before going downhill.
> 
> The Phoenix Gold Elite has some reviews out there (excellent ones at that) and is probably one of the most stout new amps available from a parts-quality-design standpoint. The Ti (titanium series-2011) is also one of the amps produced in Phoenix Golds "rebirth" and has excellent build quality.
> 
> The JL Audio HD amps are considered some of (if not THE) best class D car audio amps on the market. Really nice clean power in a compact, well built design.
> The Arc XDi are Arc Audio's upper line class D model. The build quality is not to the same level as some of the others, but we'll see how they perform in the sound department.
> 
> The Zuki Eleet is certainly the smallest vendor as I believe these are still hand assembled, but they are finished nicely and have a good reputation for quality sound.
> 
> The Zapco, well we know that one but opinions differ there of course
> 
> It should be very exciting to see what happens when the testing group has no idea which amp is playing and has to judge solely on sound. I want to see how the $50 Jensen amp fares.


I think a VRX amp would be a good one to try!


----------



## Tnutt19

Elektra said:


> Fair enough...
> 
> It seems that some make big statements here but don't really have anything concrete to back up the statements!
> 
> I probably have more Zapco products than most on this forum so yes I can have a say
> 
> The reviews by forum members are nothing short of drop everything this is it! Correct me if I am wrong! But yet the amps are being heavily modded by you and Zapco - why mod a great product? No one else does? The only mods Brax has done in 13years on the X series is add crossovers in the .2 range - Audison don't do it?
> 
> Neither did old Zapco? Correct me if I Am wrong?
> 
> Point is Matt it's clear that Zapco are playing catch up with a product that had some uncertainty around it - a lot of people here are saying the new Zapco products are not great! Infact their has been an influx of 2nd hand products for sale - more than you would expect from Zapco!
> 
> Just saying .... Reviews would be great because it backs up everyone's statements and makes forums reviews much more plausible. I would buy Zapco again but I would have to be made a believer again!
> 
> Some of the comments here don't actually help the brand - instead they hold back the brand by stroking its ego without making constructive comments on making the next version better thus having a very good product!
> 
> People must stop thinking about bottom line profits and add the ingredients to the product to make it the "best" even if it costs $100 more to make - guys will pay for that!
> 
> Don't you think?


Audison VRX offered expandable modules, to try and mod that amp would be very difficult above that. They will not release schematics to anyone.
ON Mids and highs I liked my VRX better than my thesis, the thesis due and voce duo sounded absolutely identical on thesis midbass. No sound difference at all.
TruTechnology offers up to 4 stages of upgrades. Are you saying their base product is no good? Why add a super charger to an e60 bmw m5, is not fast without one. Ofcourse it is still fast.
Why add modifications? That is a pretty silly question to be asking for someone that seems so interested and has stated that you are interested in achieving the best possible sound possible. Simply to make it better. The type of modification Matt does too is he will help gear it to an individual setup so you can maximize on each area. 

I am still interested in knowing what amplifier is good enough for you. In all seriousness, what amplifier passes your hearing test?


----------



## Golden Ear

Iirc, Elektra prefers a Kenwood amp that a Russian mag rated higher than a new Zapco Z.


----------



## Tnutt19

Golden Ear said:


> Iirc, Elektra prefers a Kenwood amp that a Russian mag rated higher than a new Zapco Z.


I am really trying to understand because there is not this mind blowing difference between the c2k and vrx. Vrx are a little more laid back, warmer, c2ks are a little more dynamic on midbass, not that much though. 9.0 pushes out a ton more power than the 1.500 and sounds really dang good, inaudible for 99 percent of subs for the sq differences, the 1.500 is a special amp too though, especially with the sp tune and fans. My point, if the c2ks are just awful sounding I do not see him liking any of Audisons products, which all sound awesome.. so what is good enough? What captures the sound he is looking for. Is it just a different in preference or is there something else going on in his set up that is an unseen variable?


----------



## Elektra

Tnutt19 said:


> Audison VRX offered expandable modules, to try and mod that amp would be very difficult above that. They will not release schematics to anyone.
> ON Mids and highs I liked my VRX better than my thesis, the thesis due and voce duo sounded absolutely identical on thesis midbass. No sound difference at all.
> TruTechnology offers up to 4 stages of upgrades. Are you saying their base product is no good? Why add a super charger to an e60 bmw m5, is not fast without one. Ofcourse it is still fast.
> Why add modifications? That is a pretty silly question to be asking for someone that seems so interested and has stated that you are interested in achieving the best possible sound possible. Simply to make it better. The type of modification Matt does too is he will help gear it to an individual setup so you can maximize on each area.
> 
> I am still interested in knowing what amplifier is good enough for you. In all seriousness, what amplifier passes your hearing test?


In all honesty TRU and Audison did instead offer upgrades - BUT... They were engineered from the inception of the product which means everyone is in the same boat! 

Zapco are adding mods on the fly which means a good customer who bought the product in good faith has to ship, pay and re ship to get this mods which ultimately means you must fork out $$$ to rectify a problem where as the above amps offer that before you even order them - big difference! And what about overseas clients - say me do you even know how much an amp costs to send overseas - my last amp cost me 200 Euros - one way! No parts no labour excluding taxes! 

Why must I pay 100's of $$$ more? 

The difference in adding a super charger to an M5 is that the M5 is a beast as it is a super charger is just wasteful! 

You ask what amp tests well to me - well in my last test done with a battery and hifi speakers level matched to each other in a blind test - the Audison VRX I could live with - great detail! Mid bass lacking - but the EOS that was in that test beat everyone! Not my opinion but that of 5 people who are active in the industry either as hifi equipment test editor for various magazines to guys who are regarded as dam fine people in the audio industry who comment on soundstage, tonal accuracy - all agreed EOS was the best and way cheaper than a VRX and the Brax X2400GE - it was interesting to hear how an unknown product that cost 250 Euro beat the pants of a Brax graphic edition at 2500 euros - and it beat it in every dept. 

The EOS had the edge over the VRX in the mid bass dept - but tweeters and midrange was equal! Soundstage was better with EOS as well.


----------



## Elektra

Golden Ear said:


> Iirc, Elektra prefers a Kenwood amp that a Russian mag rated higher than a new Zapco Z.


Lol!!!

You mean MTX don't you...,? And no I'll stick to what I have thanks...


----------



## Tnutt19

Elektra said:


> In all honesty TRU and Audison did instead offer upgrades - BUT... They were engineered from the inception of the product which means everyone is in the same boat!
> 
> Zapco are adding mods on the fly which means a good customer who bought the product in good faith has to ship, pay and re ship to get this mods which ultimately means you must fork out $$$ to rectify a problem where as the above amps offer that before you even order them - big difference! And what about overseas clients - say me do you even know how much an amp costs to send overseas - my last amp cost me 200 Euros - one way! No parts no labour excluding taxes!
> 
> Why must I pay 100's of $$$ more?
> 
> The difference in adding a super charger to an M5 is that the M5 is a beast as it is a super charger is just wasteful!
> 
> You ask what amp tests well to me - well in my last test done with a battery and hifi speakers level matched to each other in a blind test - the Audison VRX I could live with - great detail! Mid bass lacking - but the EOS that was in that test beat everyone! Not my opinion but that of 5 people who are active in the industry either as hifi equipment test editor for various magazines to guys who are regarded as dam fine people in the audio industry who comment on soundstage, tonal accuracy - all agreed EOS was the best and way cheaper than a VRX and the Brax X2400GE - it was interesting to hear how an unknown product that cost 250 Euro beat the pants of a Brax graphic edition at 2500 euros - and it beat it in every dept.
> 
> The EOS had the edge over the VRX in the mid bass dept - but tweeters and midrange was equal! Soundstage was better with EOS as well.


Do you really not see how you are contradicting your self. Just silly.
Yes the M5 is already a beast but to some it was not enough, same principle really. So ESS came out with a supercharger that boost its HP to like 700.

Audison created Class A boosters to make an already exceptional amplifier just gain a little more. 

No one has to send their amplifiers back to do these gains, it is optional. For most people the stock is just fine, exceeds most expectations, but for those that want a little more thrill will you, a continue pursuit to excellence is being worked on. Since when was that frowned upon? You are turning a great thing they are doing into a mockery because you have a bad taste against them. Lets move past Zapco though cause they clearly are not for you so their pursuits do not pertain to you. Time to let it go, we can see time and time again you dont like it.

VRX as I stated is a warm amplifier, it does not have the dynamics in midbass as the thesis or a few others, however on a good set of speakers that pairs with it there is MB for days. Like with the thesis Sax there was no lack in midbass. I did note though that you need the btx2 to get all the MB and sub bass potential out of it. This was very important.


----------



## Tnutt19

Elektra said:


> but tweeters and midrange was equal! Soundstage was better with EOS as well.


Soundstage will highly be affected by dialing in the midbass/midrange and then tuning, tuning, tuning..


----------



## Thoraudio

You've convinced me, Elektra. It was that one last ! that did it.


----------



## Elektra

Tnutt19 said:


> Do you really not see how you are contradicting your self. Just silly.
> Yes the M5 is already a beast but to some it was not enough, same principle really. So ESS came out with a supercharger that boost its HP to like 700.
> 
> Audison created Class A boosters to make an already exceptional amplifier just gain a little more.
> 
> No one has to send their amplifiers back to do these gains, it is optional. For most people the stock is just fine, exceeds most expectations, but for those that want a little more thrill will you, a continue pursuit to excellence is being worked on. Since when was that frowned upon? You are turning a great thing they are doing into a mockery because you have a bad taste against them. Lets move past Zapco though cause they clearly are not for you so their pursuits do not pertain to you. Time to let it go, we can see time and time again you dont like it.
> 
> VRX as I stated is a warm amplifier, it does not have the dynamics in midbass as the thesis or a few others, however on a good set of speakers that pairs with it there is MB for days. Like with the thesis Sax there was no lack in midbass. I did note though that you need the btx2 to get all the MB and sub bass potential out of it. This was very important.


The test we did was the same for all brands so if the VRX needed more attention to make it perform or modules to sound better - defeats the purpose of the test as I could have purchased a higher level EOS amp for the extra $$$ where does it end? 

VRX was the top amp till thesis - the EOS is a mid level amp infact 3 times cheaper than their elite amp the Verdi (which I bought - and is 3 times better as well) 

I guess BMW don't advocate making 700 horses on the M5 for obvious reasons - Zapco are saying to us change all these caps and op amps and power supply what not and your amp will sound better - it is advisable is what they effectively saying! 

I'll put it to you and everyone here - buy the AE980F EOS amp test it against the Z150.4 - if you don't like it I'll buy it from you at exactly what you paid for it and pay for shipping as well - I don't mind owning an updated version of my amp!

You can even put a MattR special in the test if you like....


----------



## Elektra

Tnutt19 said:


> Soundstage will highly be affected by dialing in the midbass/midrange and then tuning, tuning, tuning..


Ok fair enough - but how do you do that with a set of hifi speakers , battery and a CD player and everything set full range and level matched? 

The effort you mentioned applies to all brands - some just do it better than others!


----------



## BigRed

For all those reading this misinformation here. Zapco does not offer an upgrade on their amps. Matt R does not offer to upgrade your amps either. The amps are wonderful bone stock. Zapco is always working on improving their existing amps as running changes instead of offering 6 lines. Its an approach that keeps things simple. If you want to put more expensive parts in any amp, you can. It doesn't necessarily mean it will sound better. Its a find balancing act. One that Zapco has tried to perfect. Disclaimer: Not everybody knows how to use a soldering iron. 

Zed is a well known amplifier designer. He agrees with the idea of an amp having a fine balancing act in components. Higher dollar components don't necessarily make it better. Here are his comments from his website. A lot of good info over there. Capacitor Types

"An amusing story: About 14 years ago Zed Audio was building subwoofer amplifiers for a large well known speaker company in Chatsworth California. One of the projects involved a high pass active preamplifier whose output was to be 6dB/octave high pass crossover (same as the circuit above) with some simple elegant electronics. The BIG question came up from management and sound gurus whether one could tell the difference between various high quality film capacitors. I said "no" and I got hammered for this comment. I set up a test where I said they could not even hear a cheap electrolytic, never mind a film type. "You are crazy, full of you know what" were some of the comments I received. So we set up a double blind test. We had a fancy turntable, Audio Research tube preamplifiers and power amplifiers, speaker cable as thick as your arm and all the other high end toys needed for a sound system. Between the preamplifier and power amplifier a two pole switch was inserted and the switch was to select either a dead short or this one penny electrolytic capacitor. I soldered the capacitor to the switch but unbeknownst to the audio boffins, I wired a short across the capacitor so in either switch position they were listening to the same thing – a dead short, a piece of wire! This was going to be fun – I knew that.

The gurus put their favourite album on the turntable and away we went. One of their technicians was flipping the switch at the listeners' command. Back and forth we went for over ten minutes with all saying "Yes that's the capacitor, no that's the wire". So we stopped and I called all these gurus over to the switch and showed them the dead short across the capacitor. Red faces, curses etc and I was a bad boy and they were fools. Most of this "component" sound is in one's head. You have to hear the difference after you have spent $55.00 on your new coupling capacitors!"


----------



## stereo_luver

FWIW:

I've run Zuki, JL Audio, Audio System Twister (Mosconi) and Zapco and won comps with all 4. I have no issues with the Zapco line or any of the other amps I've used in the past. I attended 1 event last year due to my work keeping me busy. I ran Zapco and I won. I beat last year's Meca Finals Champion in my class by 0.5 points and I was bumped up into his class due to rules changes. I'm not bragging or busting on my fellow competitor. His tune was good and I barely won.

Chuck


----------



## Elektra

BigRed said:


> For all those reading this misinformation here. Zapco does not offer an upgrade on their amps. Matt R does not offer to upgrade your amps either. The amps are wonderful bone stock. Zapco is always working on improving their existing amps as running changes instead of offering 6 lines. Its an approach that keeps things simple. If you want to put more expensive parts in any amp, you can. It doesn't necessarily mean it will sound better. Its a find balancing act. One that Zapco has tried to perfect. Disclaimer: Not everybody knows how to use a soldering iron.
> 
> Zed is a well known amplifier designer. He agrees with the idea of an amp having a fine balancing act in components. Higher dollar components don't necessarily make it better. Here are his comments from his website. A lot of good info over there. Capacitor Types
> 
> "An amusing story: About 14 years ago Zed Audio was building subwoofer amplifiers for a large well known speaker company in Chatsworth California. One of the projects involved a high pass active preamplifier whose output was to be 6dB/octave high pass crossover (same as the circuit above) with some simple elegant electronics. The BIG question came up from management and sound gurus whether one could tell the difference between various high quality film capacitors. I said "no" and I got hammered for this comment. I set up a test where I said they could not even hear a cheap electrolytic, never mind a film type. "You are crazy, full of you know what" were some of the comments I received. So we set up a double blind test. We had a fancy turntable, Audio Research tube preamplifiers and power amplifiers, speaker cable as thick as your arm and all the other high end toys needed for a sound system. Between the preamplifier and power amplifier a two pole switch was inserted and the switch was to select either a dead short or this one penny electrolytic capacitor. I soldered the capacitor to the switch but unbeknownst to the audio boffins, I wired a short across the capacitor so in either switch position they were listening to the same thing – a dead short, a piece of wire! This was going to be fun – I knew that.
> 
> The gurus put their favourite album on the turntable and away we went. One of their technicians was flipping the switch at the listeners' command. Back and forth we went for over ten minutes with all saying "Yes that's the capacitor, no that's the wire". So we stopped and I called all these gurus over to the switch and showed them the dead short across the capacitor. Red faces, curses etc and I was a bad boy and they were fools. Most of this "component" sound is in one's head. You have to hear the difference after you have spent $55.00 on your new coupling capacitors!"


 Duly noted... I have had no experience with ZED built amps to comment on them - I was however offered a brand new Nakamichi amp the model escapes me but it was designed or built by ZED audio it was a 4x100 they also had a 2 channel version as well 2x100 heavy amps solid build quality - price wasn't bad considering it was new in the box - but I can't start collecting amps again so I declined the offer!


----------



## Golden Ear

Elektra said:


> Lol!!!
> 
> You mean MTX don't you...,? And no I'll stick to what I have thanks...


Oops, my bad.


----------



## stereo_luver

A NAK designed by ZED?

Chuck


----------



## splaudiohz

> The Zuki Eleet is certainly the smallest vendor as I believe these are still hand assembled, but they are finished nicely and have a good reputation for quality sound.


Nope, they are designed by patrick and built overseas. Still a excellent amp!!


----------



## james2266

BigRed said:


> For all those reading this misinformation here. Zapco does not offer an upgrade on their amps. Matt R does not offer to upgrade your amps either. The amps are wonderful bone stock. Zapco is always working on improving their existing amps as running changes instead of offering 6 lines. Its an approach that keeps things simple. If you want to put more expensive parts in any amp, you can. It doesn't necessarily mean it will sound better. Its a find balancing act. One that Zapco has tried to perfect. Disclaimer: Not everybody knows how to use a soldering iron.
> 
> Zed is a well known amplifier designer. He agrees with the idea of an amp having a fine balancing act in components. Higher dollar components don't necessarily make it better. Here are his comments from his website. A lot of good info over there. Capacitor Types
> 
> "An amusing story: About 14 years ago Zed Audio was building subwoofer amplifiers for a large well known speaker company in Chatsworth California. One of the projects involved a high pass active preamplifier whose output was to be 6dB/octave high pass crossover (same as the circuit above) with some simple elegant electronics. The BIG question came up from management and sound gurus whether one could tell the difference between various high quality film capacitors. I said "no" and I got hammered for this comment. I set up a test where I said they could not even hear a cheap electrolytic, never mind a film type. "You are crazy, full of you know what" were some of the comments I received. So we set up a double blind test. We had a fancy turntable, Audio Research tube preamplifiers and power amplifiers, speaker cable as thick as your arm and all the other high end toys needed for a sound system. Between the preamplifier and power amplifier a two pole switch was inserted and the switch was to select either a dead short or this one penny electrolytic capacitor. I soldered the capacitor to the switch but unbeknownst to the audio boffins, I wired a short across the capacitor so in either switch position they were listening to the same thing – a dead short, a piece of wire! This was going to be fun – I knew that.
> 
> The gurus put their favourite album on the turntable and away we went. One of their technicians was flipping the switch at the listeners' command. Back and forth we went for over ten minutes with all saying "Yes that's the capacitor, no that's the wire". So we stopped and I called all these gurus over to the switch and showed them the dead short across the capacitor. Red faces, curses etc and I was a bad boy and they were fools. Most of this "component" sound is in one's head. You have to hear the difference after you have spent $55.00 on your new coupling capacitors!"





Golden Ear said:


> Oops, my bad.


West Coast Audiophiles? I see you both have this 'logo' in your signatures. What is West Coast Audiophiles anyway? Is this some new group are there credentials required. I might be interested in joining depending on what it is of course.


----------



## splaudiohz

james2266 said:


> West Coast Audiophiles? I see you both have this 'logo' in your signatures. What is West Coast Audiophiles anyway? Is this some new group are there credentials required. I might be interested in joining depending on what it is of course.


Probably because they are located in California, and see each other at all the meets they attend.


----------



## thehatedguy

Oh yeah, he did a few of them for Nak.



stereo_luver said:


> A NAK designed by ZED?
> 
> Chuck


----------



## Tnutt19

Elektra said:


> The test we did was the same for all brands so if the VRX needed more attention to make it perform or modules to sound better - defeats the purpose of the test as I could have purchased a higher level EOS amp for the extra $$$ where does it end?
> 
> VRX was the top amp till thesis - the EOS is a mid level amp infact 3 times cheaper than their elite amp the Verdi (which I bought - and is 3 times better as well)
> 
> I guess BMW don't advocate making 700 horses on the M5 for obvious reasons - Zapco are saying to us change all these caps and op amps and power supply what not and your amp will sound better - it is advisable is what they effectively saying!
> 
> I'll put it to you and everyone here - buy the AE980F EOS amp test it against the Z150.4 - if you don't like it I'll buy it from you at exactly what you paid for it and pay for shipping as well - I don't mind owning an updated version of my amp!
> 
> You can even put a MattR special in the test if you like....


How does it defeat the purpose of the test, arent you trying to achieve the best SQ? With the Chrome shadow version the btx2 kit came for free, designed to reject possible noise and boost input voltage. IF that is not for you then no problem use your beloved amps and stop the bickering, but if you care to know how the amp is designed to be run then there you have it. 
And yes even in that setup it will adjust the imaging, your low range will change everything. For example in my 550I bmw when I had the 8s under the seats if I crossed them anywhere above 150hz it started shifting the sound stage and doing really weird stuff, even if I did not touch the M, MH ranges. SO more than likely that is why your imaging is different. IF that is to much work for you and you prefer the EOS then keep it. 

The new M5 puts out 575 Horses so they are getting very close. And with light mods can be boosted even higher, that a whole different conversation though, the point is something that is awesome can still be improved. Looks like you got it.

I think you are still missing, not everyone that has chimed in is running Zapco amps or 150.4s so your little challenge is not going to apply. What I am running will be too rich for your blood and just sound terrible to your ears LOL


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## Tnutt19

Elektra said:


> Ok fair enough - but how do you do that with a set of hifi speakers , battery and a CD player and everything set full range and level matched?
> 
> The effort you mentioned applies to all brands - some just do it better than others!


You were not using the VRX properly and had no clue as to what the BTX2 was or of its importance yet you want your test to be credited? No, at this point I would not take your advice on any brand. 
AS to some brands do it better than others, well sure that obvious, but also different brands pair with different speakers better too. 

Why again are you still chasing down this thread? Why not start a new thread talking about SQ amps and comparing them, you are chasing down and making sure you get your two cents in about Zapco on every page.

Be original, start a new thread, start a new discussion that is more productive. For some reason you keep getting drawn back to Zapco. You have to let it go, they are not for you and you are not for them. That is fine, really no big deal. Just move on man.


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## Elektra

stereo_luver said:


> A NAK designed by ZED?
> 
> Chuck


Nakamichi PA-2004


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## palldat

james2266 said:


> West Coast Audiophiles? I see you both have this 'logo' in your signatures. What is West Coast Audiophiles anyway? Is this some new group are there credentials required. I might be interested in joining depending on what it is of course.


Hahahaha...I was just thinking the same thing. I have so far to get into both of their class of finish though...Maybe a WCA Cub


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## Elektra

Tnutt19 said:


> You were not using the VRX properly and had no clue as to what the BTX2 was or of its importance yet you want your test to be credited? No, at this point I would not take your advice on any brand.
> AS to some brands do it better than others, well sure that obvious, but also different brands pair with different speakers better too.
> 
> Why again are you still chasing down this thread? Why not start a new thread talking about SQ amps and comparing them, you are chasing down and making sure you get your two cents in about Zapco on every page.
> 
> Be original, start a new thread, start a new discussion that is more productive. For some reason you keep getting drawn back to Zapco. You have to let it go, they are not for you and you are not for them. That is fine, really no big deal. Just move on man.


Before you assume anything the owner of the VRX wired and setup the amp not me! One has to assume he knew what he was doing considering it was his amp!

Sounds like you have no clue! And that your clutching on straws your comments come across as uneducated and predictable! You argue points that are irrelevant to the discussion - you talk about setting up and having no clue etc but you can't even read the question properly! Or answers for that matter!

You just can't accept that there are cheaper products that are better as you always have a comeback to everything! You should speak to John for a sponsorship deal if you don't have one already! 

You should get paid for your dedication! It's impressive!


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## Elektra

Tnutt19 said:


> How does it defeat the purpose of the test, arent you trying to achieve the best SQ? With the Chrome shadow version the btx2 kit came for free, designed to reject possible noise and boost input voltage. IF that is not for you then no problem use your beloved amps and stop the bickering, but if you care to know how the amp is designed to be run then there you have it.
> And yes even in that setup it will adjust the imaging, your low range will change everything. For example in my 550I bmw when I had the 8s under the seats if I crossed them anywhere above 150hz it started shifting the sound stage and doing really weird stuff, even if I did not touch the M, MH ranges. SO more than likely that is why your imaging is different. IF that is to much work for you and you prefer the EOS then keep it.
> 
> The new M5 puts out 575 Horses so they are getting very close. And with light mods can be boosted even higher, that a whole different conversation though, the point is something that is awesome can still be improved. Looks like you got it.
> 
> I think you are still missing, not everyone that has chimed in is running Zapco amps or 150.4s so your little challenge is not going to apply. What I am running will be too rich for your blood and just sound terrible to your ears LOL


I think you are still missing, not everyone that has chimed in is running Zapco amps or 150.4s so your little challenge is not going to apply. What I am running will be too rich for your blood and just sound terrible to your ears LOL

I doubt it ..... But humor me! Please do share!


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## Tnutt19

Elektra said:


> Before you assume anything the owner of the VRX wired and setup the amp not me! One has to assume he knew what he was doing considering it was his amp!
> 
> Sounds like you have no clue! And that your clutching on straws your comments come across as uneducated and predictable! You argue points that are irrelevant to the discussion - you talk about setting up and having no clue etc but you can't even read the question properly! Or answers for that matter!
> 
> You just can't accept that there are cheaper products that are better as you always have a comeback to everything! You should speak to John for a sponsorship deal if you don't have one already!
> 
> You should get paid for your dedication! It's impressive!


Your quite funny! Why would I have need for a sponser ship when I do not own anything Zapco? That makes since!
You were bickering about wanting the best results and when I commont on the need for the btx2 you complain. There are plenty of people that own Vrx that do not know how to properly set up, there are a lot of extra setting on that amplifier. Most dealers do not know how to properly set them up. You say I have no clue, I have a ton of experience with the Audison line, have set up countless VRX, Voce and Thesis amplifiers. Sounds like you maybe need to take another breather bud. 
I have no loyalty to any brand, I simply use what I like, price isn't a factor, thanks for your concern though. You come across as someone that has serious little man syndrome, I was giving feedback to a brand that has nothing to do with Zapco and you come with your typical predictable comebacks.
Good luck on this forum with that attitude, how many weeks will you last before getting banned this time?


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## Elektra

Tnutt19 said:


> Your quite funny! Why would I have need for a sponser ship when I do not own anything Zapco? That makes since!
> You were bickering about wanting the best results and when I commont on the need for the btx2 you complain. There are plenty of people that own Vrx that do not know how to properly set up, there are a lot of extra setting on that amplifier. Most dealers do not know how to properly set them up. You say I have no clue, I have a ton of experience with the Audison line, have set up countless VRX, Voce and Thesis amplifiers. Sounds like you maybe need to take another breather bud.
> I have no loyalty to any brand, I simply use what I like, price isn't a factor, thanks for your concern though. You come across as someone that has serious little man syndrome, I was giving feedback to a brand that has nothing to do with Zapco and you come with your typical predictable comebacks.
> Good luck on this forum with that attitude, how many weeks will you last before getting banned this time?


Whatever dude! Your my hero!


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## darrenforeal

TRU has also offered different OP amps and caps, etc. AFTER they came out with their base product. You are incorrect.



Elektra said:


> The case in point was that whole thing about Darrenforreal removing his TRU amp and did not state the proper reason for this! I subsequently read on another forum that he had to remove the TRU due to being given a Zapco sponsorship! That made sense to me as to why for the purposes of that thread he blatantly left that bit of info out as removing a $7000 amp and using a $900 amp in its place was more for financial reasons than anything else!
> 
> It's ok if a $7000 amp sounds better than a $1200 amp - really nobody can fight you on that! But at least be honest about it and not tell people otherwise! Just unprofessional and anyone with a brain can see through that and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth as well!
> 
> So the reality check is that when people say Z amps are the best in the world - I have to ask have you possibly heard all the amps in the world? And which respected reputable institution confirms this?
> 
> Or maybe John sent seriously bad prototype garbage to us and saved all the good stuff for you folk?


that's incorrect. I am not sponsored by Zapco nor am I on Team Zapco. I already said why I replaced it. The z 150.2s sound just as good and for the price I sold the TRU for, I was able to get more amps for my other vehicle. Do not spread lies about me.





Elektra said:


> The difference in adding a super charger to an M5 is that the M5 is a beast as it is a super charger is just wasteful!


Said no one ever. Except you. Look you're alone in your opinion again. I see a trend...


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## 12v Electronics

This thread has serious issues. I need to hit the unsubscribe button because the childishness is really starting to piss me off. 

It's rare to see someone with such an agenda to try to de-rail a simple thread about a manufacturer's product. If I could reach through the screen and shake him in an attempt to knock some sense into him I would. 

Nobody would join and make their first 50 posts only in this thread unless there was some sort of an agenda to work. 

Keep the whining up Elektra. I am hitting the unsubscribe button for a thread that I was originally interested in until you started spouting your unfounded hate. You have graduated to head douchebag. 

Is there an ignore button that I can hit too? I don't need to waste any more time with posts by him.


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## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> TRU has also offered different OP amps and caps, etc. AFTER they came out with their base product. You are incorrect.
> 
> 
> 
> that's incorrect. I am not sponsored by Zapco nor am I on Team Zapco. I already said why I replaced it. The z 150.2s sound just as good and for the price I sold the TRU for, I was able to get more amps for my other vehicle. Do not spread lies about me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Said no one ever. Except you. Look you're alone in your opinion again. I see a trend...


That's not what you said in another forum.., you talked about all your other sponsors - can't remember exactly as it was early December when I read it! If I have the time and inclination I'll look for it and past it in.


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## darrenforeal

Elektra said:


> That's not what you said in another forum.., you talked about all your other sponsors - can't remember exactly as it was early December when I read it! If I have the time and inclination I'll look for it and past it in.


Again you are wrong, and spreading libel. I'm not sponsored by Zapco. I'm on Team Hybrids, but I don't get anything for free. Also good to know you've apparently been stalking me...


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## papasin

12v Electronics said:


> Is there an ignore button that I can hit too? I don't need to waste any more time with posts by him.


User CP->Settings and Options->Edit Ignore List


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## vivmike

Why does this guy hate Zapco's so much?

He must have bought some fake ones.


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## Matt R

I wonder how much you have to pester other forum members before you get banned? Or even bad mouth a manufacturer.

I wonder if Winslow knows the answer to that question?


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## weshole

Matt R said:


> I wonder how much you have to pester other forum members before you get banned? Or even bad mouth a manufacturer.
> 
> I wonder if Winslow knows the answer to that question?



Im wondering as well. This troll seems to thrive on bashing Zapco. Like there is a personal vendetta. Especially when about 6 of his 140+ posts are in any thing besides a Zapco based thread.


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## captainobvious

splaudiohz said:


> Nope, they are designed by patrick and built overseas. Still a excellent amp!!


Thanks for the clarification


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## Elektra

weshole said:


> Im wondering as well. This troll seems to thrive on bashing Zapco. Like there is a personal vendetta. Especially when about 6 of his 140+ posts are in any thing besides a Zapco based thread.





WestCo said:


> We did drop in tests with a mc302, leviathan v3, and zapco z400.2
> 
> In order of my preference the mc302, levi, and then the zapco (which is an a/b).
> 
> I was surprised by the test in all honesty. The levi was basically as good as the mac.
> 
> The zapco was a complete dog however, dull and lifeless as it someone had put blankets over the speakers. I learned one thing from that test, ignore the class of the amplifier and only observe the output. Engineering is everything...


This guy must have a fake Zapco for sure! Amazing how many fakes their are around these days... Lol! 

Btw this does not count as number 141.... As I didn't write it! Lol!


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## Matt R

Hey man, stop posting in this thread. What part of that dont you get?

This guy above stated his opinion then moved on. He's not writing every other post about it.

Matt


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## robert_wrath

Hey Matt, let's face it. He hates Zapco, most of the other members posting on this thread Love Zapco!


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## Tnutt19

robert_wrath said:


> Hey Matt, let's face it. He hates Zapco, most of the other members posting on this thread Love Zapco!


I think it is more of proving he is right no matter what company. It is beyond providing feedback, he is incapable of holding a discussion about any brand unless it is his amplifiers he raves about. Really too bad because there is a wealth of knowledge available on this forum but a student that is out to prove a point is never a good student. He will unlikely contribute anything constructive until he adjust his attitude and realizes that no ones is out to get him, we just like our tunes and like to keep things productive. No reason to hang around on a thread for a company he can not stand and does not approve of. 

He just does not seem to get that though. I really hope he does get it though before he gets banned again.


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## BigRed

Never trust a person who's opinion on a public forum is to never trust a persons opinion on a public forum. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Golden Ear

I'm sure that even the other people that don't like Zapco amps are getting annoyed by now. What's the point?


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## captainobvious

You know...there is one thing that does kind of bug me about the Z amps. Nothing to do with sonic performance though. I'll update after my testing on Saturday.


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## weshole

Elektra said:


> This guy must have a fake Zapco for sure! Amazing how many fakes their are around these days... Lol!
> 
> Btw this does not count as number 141.... As I didn't write it! Lol!


The 400.2 he tested happened to be THE amp I owned. He got it from me. His impressions and experiences were not shared by me. (although I do respect his opinion) I loved the amp and how well it performed in MY install. The only reason I got rid of it is to get the Z150.4 which I am looking forward to using in my latest install.

Thats the beauty of our society. There are plenty of brands to choose from. Just like you dislike the Z series, I never liked the sound of some of the 90's era fosgate amps. The difference is, Im not trolling a thread on them to condemn them.


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## vivmike

I keep going back to Zapco's. Just bought 2 more 150.2's, for future project.


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## shutmdown

zapco's phone number is disconnected. anybody have a new number for them?


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## tyroneshoes

Any update regarding ESB speakers through zapco?


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## mmiller

shutmdown said:


> zapco's phone number is disconnected. anybody have a new number for them?


Uh oh......... I hope someone does!!!!


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## ACJohn

To Quote the Guide...Don't Panic!

My fault, sorry.

I'v been locked up with new product development and some other things. That and and old-timers. I just let that one go by. Anyway, we're up now and I'm putting everything we have on auto-pay so I can forget about it without consequences.

Also: I haven't been here much lately, or even on our own forum, but the distributor's taking over managing tech and service shortly. That will free up a lot of time and I'll try to set aside time to check the forums and the site each day. 

In the meantime...if anyone needs me drop a note to john[email protected] or text to 209 483 3544.* Please don't call!* Send a text and I'll get back as soon as I can. And keep the number among the forum please.

Thx
John


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## Huckleberry Sound

Great Info


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