# Mid bass on morel elate mids sound worse than stock coaxial speakers...



## KL1111 (Jul 12, 2014)

There has to be something wrong with the way i set my passive system up

Morel elate 6 mids with MX-22 crossovers (new)
mx-23 tweets (used)

The highs sound great but the mids are really lacking

here a pic of how i how i have my amp set up, gain is set half way









Crossover (blue rectangles are the settings i chose to use)









Any suggestions? The amp is rated at 125 per channel so they are being underpowered but still. Are the crossovers optimally set up?


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## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

Where exactly is your HPF set?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

why is your XO set to "full" on the amp? Are you High passing the comps from your head unit instead?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

basher8621 said:


> Where exactly is your HPF set?


jinx..buy me a coke.


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## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

Set a HPF around 80ish and go from there.


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## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

miniSQ said:


> jinx..buy me a coke.


LOL!


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## KL1111 (Jul 12, 2014)

basher8621 said:


> Where exactly is your HPF set?


Im using my headunit's crossover, HPF is set to 100 (100 is the lowest setting on the head unit)


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## basher8621 (Feb 21, 2009)

I'd lower it. Send a full singal out the HU and use the HPF on the amp at 80ish. Which amp are you using, if i may ask.


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## KL1111 (Jul 12, 2014)

basher8621 said:


> Set a HPF around 80ish and go from there.


How do i set it right at 80 since it goes up to 1k? Will it damage the woofers if its set too low?

Anything wrong with how the crossover is set up?


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Id would say leave amp to full pass, turn off HU XOver off, the Morel Elate passives do not need additional filtering, but assume the doors have good deadening and sealed as much as possible.

Sometimes the deadener CLD will reduce the deeper bass and you need to EQ tune or change the phase on the sub or time align the door mids in order the ge the best mid bass.

And you need at least clean 100w rms for those mids, 160W would be even better.


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

Alrojoca said:


> Id would say leave amp to full pass, turn off HU XOver off, the Morel Elate passives do not need additional filtering, but assume the doors have good deadening and sealed as much as possible.
> 
> Sometimes the deadener CLD will reduce the deeper bass and you need to EQ tune or change the phase on the sub or time align the door mids in order the ge the best mid bass.
> 
> And you need at least clean 100w rms for those mids, 160W would be even better.


The more the better. 

Have the 903's in my GF's car

800 x 2 really made them come alive :laugh:


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Alrojoca said:


> Id would say leave amp to full pass, turn off HU XOver off, the Morel Elate passives do not need additional filtering, but assume the doors have good deadening and sealed as much as possible.
> 
> Sometimes the deadener CLD will reduce the deeper bass and you need to EQ tune or change the phase on the sub or time align the door mids in order the ge the best mid bass.
> 
> And you need at least clean 100w rms for those mids, 160W would be even better.


Filtering (high pass) of 100hz should not interfere with the passives as they are not supplied with a midrange highpass. There will be a midrange lowpass & tweeter highpass. There is something else amiss like lack of tuning or door treatments.


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## KL1111 (Jul 12, 2014)

edzyy said:


> The more the better.
> 
> Have the 903's in my GF's car
> 
> 800 x 2 really made them come alive :laugh:


With my amp i can do 500 x 2 @ 4oms, do you think that's a bit overkill or can they take it if i turn the gain down?


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

edzyy said:


> The more the better.
> 
> Have the 903's in my GF's car
> 
> 800 x 2 really made them come alive :laugh:


I agree, but I would be careful if the door is not fully sealed, and filtering should be applied maybe not not lower than 75 Hz in addition to the passives since it is possible the excursion will rip the cone from the surrounds if used with music having frequencies below 50 Hz and with over 200W per side. 




Bayboy said:


> Filtering (high pass) of 100hz should not interfere with the passives as they are not supplied with a midrange highpass. There will be a midrange lowpass & tweeter highpass. There is something else amiss like lack of tuning or door treatments.



Doesn't filtering limits power though?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

The extra power will help with dynamics but you still have to be careful of what you're actually sending them on a long term basis. That amp should be enough to have them play decently. I would start problem solving elsewhere before applying more power.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Alrojoca said:


> Doesn't filtering limits power though?


To a degree, but a filter of 100hz @ -12db should be spot on. Something else is wrong.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

From the looks of that amp it is a Maxxsonics product. Not perfect, but should at least be putting out around 80-100 watts pc. No such thing as the speakers not sounding good with a small amount of power as every system would sound like crap when turned down no matter how much power is at hand. The amp will just clip earlier. If anything, not a gob of power means the crossover point can be lowered a tad, perhaps 60-80hz. 

What headunit is being used? Any sort of processing (EQ, time alignment, etc..) available? Are the speakers wired in phase including amp outputs & wiring out of passives?


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Also the passives should be set to a 12 db slope minimum if that is an option

I had a similar issue when I put an extra layer of dynamat, like 2 sf behind the door driver.

A lot of bass was gone, I had to EQ and TA .

Maybe the OP has the polarity mixed up, or the XO is not connected properly


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

Make sure the Mids are in phase. Also give the mids a few days to break in. I put in a paid of image Chameleon components years back, they were being fed 300Wrms each. But mid-bass was not there... compared to the quarts that they replaced.... Took some time for them to break in.


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## gu9cci (Mar 28, 2011)

I just did active install with the elates and my woofers get 120w each which cause distortion of under powering.Elate woofers need least 180w of clean power.
I got 240w each now and they sooo much better.
But I think they can take 350w easy.That being said beside installation and crossovers /deadening throw them all the power you have!!!!


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## ou812 (Oct 25, 2008)

gu9cci said:


> I just did active install with the elates and my woofers get 120w each which cause distortion of under powering.Elate woofers need least 180w of clean power.
> I got 240w each now and they sooo much better.
> But I think they can take 350w easy.That being said beside installation and crossovers /deadening throw them all the power you have!!!!


That was the amp clipping. Underpowering doesn't cause distortion.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

ou812 said:


> That was the amp clipping. Underpowering doesn't cause distortion.


Exactly! Even at half power there should be plenty output, but if there is a phase issue then they won't sound good no matter how much power is applied.


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## gu9cci (Mar 28, 2011)

Yes amp clipping just bad explanation on my side.
Anyhow all I try to say they need power!!


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Part of the problem is the OP's explanation doesn't go into detail of what it is exactly doing or sounds like. He could very well be clipping the amp, but it would be in all drivers not just the mids.


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## CrossFired (Jan 24, 2008)

It's not the Elates, unless there fake. I've run/installed a few pairs with great success.

Always ran them active. 125 watt rms is plenty for the Elate alone. With the crossover and tweeters, it should still sound very good.


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## KL1111 (Jul 12, 2014)

Bayboy said:


> From the looks of that amp it is a Maxxsonics product. Not perfect, but should at least be putting out around 80-100 watts pc. No such thing as the speakers not sounding good with a small amount of power as every system would sound like crap when turned down no matter how much power is at hand. The amp will just clip earlier. If anything, not a gob of power means the crossover point can be lowered a tad, perhaps 60-80hz.
> 
> What headunit is being used? Any sort of processing (EQ, time alignment, etc..) available? Are the speakers wired in phase including amp outputs & wiring out of passives?





mmiller said:


> Make sure the Mids are in phase. Also give the mids a few days to break in. I put in a paid of image Chameleon components years back, they were being fed 300Wrms each. But mid-bass was not there... compared to the quarts that they replaced.... Took some time for them to break in.


Headunit is a Kenwood Excelon KDC-X496, its pretty limited on the processing...

How can i test if they're wired in phase? I double checked the polarity of the wires


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## KL1111 (Jul 12, 2014)

Bayboy said:


> Part of the problem is the OP's explanation doesn't go into detail of what it is exactly doing or sounds like. He could very well be clipping the amp, but it would be in all drivers not just the mids.


The midbass i was expecting just isn't there, the OEM speakers had better sounding midbass. I dont think im clipping the amp, i used a DMM to set the gain and then verified it by ear afterwards


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Give a rundown of the full system including interconnects. That headunit doesn't offer much, but it's crossovers can be turned off to eliminate if that is the issue which I doubt. You can flip one of the mid's wiring to see if that helps.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

KL1111 said:


> The midbass i was expecting just isn't there, the OEM speakers had better sounding midbass. I dont think im clipping the amp, i used a DMM to set the gain and then verified it by ear afterwards




Ahhhh.... well, they do have a low Qts of .44 so compared to most factory drivers having a rather high... yeah some upper bass could be lacking. The difference you should see is better clarity in the midrange.


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## KL1111 (Jul 12, 2014)

Bayboy said:


> Give a rundown of the full system including interconnects. That headunit doesn't offer much, but it's crossovers can be turned off to eliminate if that is the issue which I doubt. You can flip one of the mid's wiring to see if that helps.


mbquart DSC4125 amp
Morel elate 6 
morel mx22 crossover
morel mx23 tweets
Kenwood Excelon KDC-X496 head unit
Stinger 4000 series 4 channel RCA

So flip the wiring from the mid to the crossover? Not the wiring of the crosssover to the amp?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

KL1111 said:


> mbquart DSC4125 amp
> Morel elate 6
> morel mx22 crossover
> morel mx23 tweets
> ...


Whichever is most convenient...


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## KL1111 (Jul 12, 2014)

Bayboy said:


> Whichever is most convenient...


just tried it, no improvement!


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## mires (Mar 5, 2011)

I may have missed it but did you seal and deaden your doors?


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## KL1111 (Jul 12, 2014)

mires said:


> I may have missed it but did you seal and deaden your doors?


No i did not, although i plan too. Still doesn't explain why the stock speakers have better midbass though!


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## mires (Mar 5, 2011)

KL1111 said:


> No i did not, although i plan too. Still doesn't explain why the stock speakers have better midbass though!


Sure it does. OEM drivers are designed to work well in the stock mostly open door. Aftermarket drivers are designed to be used IB meaning mostly sealed. I am 100% sure that if you seal up those doors your midbass problem will be resolved. Break-in time will help as well.


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## KL1111 (Jul 12, 2014)

mires said:


> Sure it does. OEM drivers are designed to work well in the stock mostly open door. Aftermarket drivers are designed to be used IB meaning mostly sealed. I am 100% sure that if you seal up those doors your midbass problem will be resolved. Break-in time will help as well.


You learn something new evey day 

I was going to buy enough deadner to seal the 2 interior sides of the door panel and then sheet metal/deaden the outside of the panel. Is this necessary or should i just seal just the outside of panel?


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Elates without sealing and deaden the doors?


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## mires (Mar 5, 2011)

KL1111 said:


> I was going to buy enough deadner to seal the 2 interior sides of the door panel and then sheet metal/deaden the outside of the panel. Is this necessary or should i just seal just the outside of panel?


It's best to put plenty of deadener on the outer skin (the part you would knock on if you got outside of the car) as it's mostly thin material with no bracing. As far as actually sealing the doors you want to close off all of the large access holes as best you can making sure not to impede the movement of any moving parts such as the rods for your door handle and locks. Most people just use thin metal and self tapping screw to accomplish this and then deaden over that. Here is a good example of what I am talking about (scroll about 3/4 of the way down)

sound deadening door help



Alrojoca said:


> Elates without sealing and deaden the doors?


I'm guessing you never did anything questionable when you were just getting started in all of this.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Alrojoca said:


> Elates without sealing and deaden the doors?


it should not be necessary to seal and deaden doors to get the elate to sound better than the factory speaker.

But a door with an elate speaker in it will sound better after deadening and sealing, than an untreated door with an elate in it.

where did the elates come from? Could they be fakes?


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

To be honest, I prefer a much higher Q driver for doors. With such a low Q, response down low compared to a stock driver isn't going to be spectacular without extensive work. That has been my experience over & over regardless what others say or what brand name it dons. This is the same reason why I have Jamo mids in the doors now... they may not have the handling or high output of others I've tried, but they definitely have better upper bass output by a good margin.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Bayboy said:


> To be honest, I prefer a much higher Q driver for doors. With such a low Q, response down low compared to a stock driver isn't going to be spectacular without extensive work. That has been my experience over & over regardless what others say or what brand name it dons. This is the same reason why I have Jamo mids in the doors now... they may not have the handling or high output of others I've tried, but they definitely have better upper bass output by a good margin.


the morel should have a very high fs...thats what they do. I think it must be 48-50hz, which is why i made my comment above...it should not need treated doors to outperform a factory speaker.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

miniSQ said:


> the morel should have a very high fs...thats what they do. I think it must be 48-50hz, which is why i made my comment above...it should not need treated doors to outperform a factory speaker.



'Should not" could be overly optimistic at times.... if it is the same as within this PDF then I'm still not too keen on it's use down low or having as much upper bass that the OP may be used to. To make use of a mediocre xmax for lower frequencies in a door baffle a higher Q helps quite a bit. Have had the same experience with Audax, Dayton RS, and quite a few others. Midrange would be far better than stock or lesser drivers, but frequencies below 120hz... meh. 

http://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Components-New-Elate-series-In-low-res.pdf


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Bayboy said:


> 'Should not" could be overly optimistic at times.... if it is the same as within this PDF then I'm still not too keen on it's use down low or having as much upper bass that the OP may be used to. To make use of a mediocre xmax for lower frequencies in a door baffle a higher Q helps quite a bit. Have had the same experience with Audax, Dayton RS, and quite a few others. Midrange would be far better than stock or lesser drivers, but frequencies below 120hz... meh.
> 
> http://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Components-New-Elate-series-In-low-res.pdf


qts is .44, so i think that should qualify it as a high Q woofer...or at least high "enough" to work in an an unsealed door.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Not in my experience or opinion, but there's more to than just Qts that leads me to that train of thought. Again, the OP's expectations of output in a particular frequency range may be a bit askew of what others have become accustomed to dependent upon tastes & genre. At the same time history dictates that most boost a certain range when using drivers of those characteristics. If the OP lacks that capability then.... 

However, we can model a driver to get a mere hunch of what may happen. I'm simply unimpressed by my findings and the same when doing others within the same class. That could be apples & oranges of what some go through to "make" some work.


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## Regus (Feb 1, 2011)

Just wondering about "high" Qts and what that is in practice - I've seen values for car speakers of 0.99 for a 6.5" - as ever, one parameter alone doesn't necessarily tell the whole story, especially when dealing with the vagaries of car doors compared to a sealed enclosure.

My personal experience is that sealing the door should make a big difference - my last car had a solid (i.e. no holes) sheet of metal attached to the door which the window regulator and speaker were attached as part of its construction - the difference between this and a conventional door with access holes to get at locks etc. was night and day in terms of low end output, even without any treatment. Rattles were another story however...


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Honestly, you can seal up the inner skin all day, but it is my belief that if a driver sits behind the door panel & grill then there is still a chance for lack of performance. Not saying deadening & sealing doesn't help because it does, but there is even more to the degree of making sure sound waves are funneled out into the cabin hence why some use some form of a gasket between the driver & panel. 

As far as Qts, it matters somewhat on the rolloff. Generally, the lower the Qts, the higher the frequency the mid will begin to drop off has been my exeperience. Also you may have to boost a little bit somewhere. If you notice, most that run low Qts drivers tend to make sure the drivers have as much throw as possible to help make up for it when the EQ is applied. Could go on about this, but really no need. I think we all know the pros & cons of each. I just prefer something a bit higher between a high .5 and up to .8 depending on application. So far it has worked for getting the crossover point to go lower. I got more output near 60hz that way vs other drivers that were opposite and had to be crossed near 100-120hz to be safe. All is volume dependent though.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

I am running four Morel Supremo MW6 woofers in my car. It is a 5.1 system.
We built 9.8 liter sealed fiberglass enclosures on the front doors. No MDF, an aluminum ring was glassed into the enclosure to mount the MW6. I originally had the Elate woofer in theses enclosures and they sounded very good. Dynamic, musical with clarity. The Supremos however are a step up IMHO.

















http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...llery/139236-mercedes-midbass-enclosures.html


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Factory speakers tend to be efficient not needing much power these days and they fit like a glove no gaps between the panel and speaker and baffle or spacer and door.

I have 1" thick ring spacers and even OCF surrounding the driver besides a door to ring and ring to speaker tight seal. Every door is different YMMV

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...urround-guides-who-sells-them-unnamed-98-.jpg


Good deadener will really improve midbass besides reducing rattles.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

so, a list of possible culprits for the results seen:

low Qts
lower sensitivity
irregular seal, possible gaps between door panel and door
early rolloff on Morel due to high Fs, and low Qts
deck equalization suited for OEM

that's probably not all of it, you could throw in how paper sounds compared to poly, or how lower distortion drivers won't sound as "full" as higher distortion ones.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

KL1111 said:


> Im using my headunit's crossover, HPF is set to 100 (100 is the lowest setting on the head unit)


willing to bet this is the problem. 100hz HPF is pretty high if you are expecting midbass out of it.

also Morel are about the least sensitive speakers I have ever seen. underpowering them is going to have poor output.


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