# Any reason NOT to run sealed door pods for midbass considering ...



## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

The car is an 2003 Infinit G35 sedan. Those familiar with the G's know they tend to be rattle boxes, particularly the 1st generation ...

No matter how much Damplifier and other dampening media I have put in the doors, they still are hampered by some nasty resonance at high volume. I like my midbass rockin, and that rattling just isn't going to cut it ...

Also have problems with cone excursion at loud volume. The surround whacks the door skin, and well, no need to elaborate on why that is a problem ...

So I built a cheap box, 0.33 cubic feet, for a Dynaudio MW182, just to see what it would do. I put it in the floor, gave it 250 W, and it is ROCKIN hard. Some boost 110-130 hz due to the higher Q of the small box, but I get usable response down to 48-50 hz or so, 55 hz is about the -3 dB point it seems. A slight lull, maybe a phase problem or pressure node, around 70-75 hz ....

I think I can get 0.47 cubic feet by creating a sealed enclosure for the door. I'll stuff it, so effectively it'll be over 0.50 cubic feet. Should lower the -3 dB point to around 50-51 hz or so I think ...

Any reason not to do so?


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

Yup...I have been there, and once you open up the rear of the chamber the speaker themselves seem to open up.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

I am sorry, but that means nothing to me ...

Does it matter how well the driver supposedly "opens up" if I cannot beat the panel resonance I am getting in the door at higher volumes?


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

Damping doesn't prevent two things from hitting each other. I don't think you are getting panel resonances... they would not sound like rattles. 

Based on my experience with rattles in doors, I would check:

1) The speaker - is it hitting the door panel from behind? I have seen midbass driver surrounds hit the backside of the door panel at extension. 

2) The spacer - is the door panel bouncing off the spacer? Is the spacer preventing the door panel clips from seating? Do you have foam weatherstripping tape in between the spacer and the door panel?

3) The door panel clips - are some broken?

4) (big issue - 1st-year-TSX) Are there broken plastic welds on your panel? With some door panels, the pocket is a separate piece from the top half, and they fit together with pins through holes which are then plastic welded. The TSX had horrid TSBs on rattling door panels for year one, and I found them to be caused by broken plastic welds. The next year the welds were replaced by screws. I fixed mine with a soldering iron, but it is tricky - they tend to break again when the door panel flexes during removal or reinstall.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

The door handle assemblies on these cars rattle, rattle, rattle, and it cannot be stopped. There is no easy way to dissemble it and fix that issue ...

Yes, I do have problems with excursion ...

Nothing physically wrong with the door, all the clips are new. Door skin fits perfectly on the metal ...

Baffle does not contact the skin ...


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

infiniti23 said:


> The door handle assemblies on these cars rattle, rattle, rattle, and it cannot be stopped. There is no easy way to dissemble it and fix that issue ...


Then why on earth would sealed midbass pods fix that? I see no reason to think they would.

Doesn't matter if it's easy. Nissan handles are not that hard to take apart. Kick its ass.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

I can isolate the sealed midbass pod so that it won't resonate wildly into the door ...

Here is an idea, how about venting the Dyn 182 into the door with a variovent?


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

Pods are good when the speaker is designed for them. You are building an enclosure for the driver, so you do sort of have to build it right to function right. Also note that sizing will need to be quite a bit more exact then say a subwoofer. You're working around 0.3 cu.ft. versus 3 cu.ft., smaller scale, higher precision...especially if porting.

Right driver, right enclosure, and you should end up very good.


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

Beating door rattles and resonances > less than perfect FR variation from sealed box. I vote you go for it.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Make sure you have enough box volume or you will get even more resonance. Also make sure the speaker has enough room to breathe behind it, if you build a flat wall you may have some difficulties again. I personally like IB more, more airspace. There are other ways to get rid of rattles.


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> Make sure you have enough box volume or you will get even more resonance. Also make sure the speaker has enough room to breathe behind it, if you build a flat wall you may have some difficulties again. I personally like IB more, more airspace. There are other ways to get rid of rattles.


Not so easy if it's the door handles rattling  If lock rods rattle some barrier products can make the noise much less invasive but if the door handles are right next to you...

Agreed about the enclosure though, build it as big as possible and either couple it well (to the door metal) or decouple it with neoprene or other ccf. Stuff it with rockwool or R12-R21 fibreglass insulation (loosely) to get more apparent space if you need to as well.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

What frequencies will it be playing? Pure midbass or "midbass"? 

If it's playing midrange as well then make sure you build the area around the cone as open as possible. Cut away a lot of the non structural sheet metal around the oem hole, this way you can use the space around the inside of the door panel as well and end up with a very open large baffle that will help the sound on both sides of the cone. In other words, don't end up with an enclosure that looked like a para scope.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Midbass driver from 45 to 55 up to 400 or 500 depending on whether or not I use a dome midrange ...

Anybody have a number for Emelio at Dynaudio?


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## yermolovd (Oct 10, 2005)

I am doing a box this time around. I just had enough rattles in my last setup and I don't ever want to put a mb in door anymore. I have 03 maxima, I figured I can easily pull .5 out of the lower part if I extrude it outwards more to take up some more space.
I vote try getting the max volume out of the enclosure (assuming the driver can work with the volume available). Although I haven't finished myself, I'm very sure I will like it better.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Been there in an old car and will never ever do it again. Getting an enclosure sealed perfectly in the door is a major PITA.

Plus you should be able to isolate an IB setup just as effectively as you could a sealed setup.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^x2. By the time you do all the work to get that to work, I would just do the surgery to get kickpanel midbass drivers to work.

After everything I've been through and done, I won't ever put midbass in a door again.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Depends on the size of the driver, space requirements, and floorspace. I would never put kicks in my car. There is no room for the driver and definitely not room for a 12L enclosure. I am planning to do sealed door enclosures. Hondas are wonderful for door enclosures because the interior door panel is in two pieces. It's easy to remove the lower quarter and build an enclosure. I don't know how difficult that would be on the Infiniti. They are a LOT of work, but who wouldn't want a woofer sealed in the perfect volume box?


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Just got off the phone with Dynaudio ...

For MIDBASS, they reaffirmed that a sealed enclosure, even a small one (0.3-0.5 cubes), should be killer for midbass ...

Recommended I try it sealed, then the use of AP vent(s) or a variovent if I was not happy ...

I've gotten fairly competent with fiberglass over the months. The work does not bother me. Sawing my door up is a little disconcerting, but the heck with it, I am going to give it a shot ...

As I mentioned, I made a cheap 0.33 cubic foot box, stuffed it, and put it in the floor as a test. It sounded awesome ...


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Mooble said:


> Depends on the size of the driver, space requirements, and floorspace. I would never put kicks in my car. There is no room for the driver and definitely not room for a 12L enclosure. I am planning to do sealed door enclosures. Hondas are wonderful for door enclosures because the interior door panel is in two pieces. It's easy to remove the lower quarter and build an enclosure. I don't know how difficult that would be on the Infiniti. They are a LOT of work, but who wouldn't want a woofer sealed in the perfect volume box?


Definitely not working the driver into the kick. It will be a SEALED door pod type of enclosure. The door in the G35 is not two pieces, but I can effectively saw the entire bottom part off except for the backing. From there I will build the sealed enclosure on top of the backing ...

Ultimately, if I went all out, I can get around 0.57 cubic feet. Add some stuffing and a AP vent, and I think it will rock hard ...


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

infiniti23 said:


> Definitely not working the driver into the kick. It will be a SEALED door pod type of enclosure. The door in the G35 is not two pieces, but I can effectively saw the entire bottom part off except for the backing. From there I will build the sealed enclosure on top of the backing ...
> 
> Ultimately, if I went all out, I can get around 0.57 cubic feet. Add some stuffing and a AP vent, and I think it will rock hard ...


Do you have a pic of the bare inner door skin (ie not deadner or plastic film) or know where we could see one. Might be able to give you some pointers on where not to cut, just in case. More heads are better then one.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Show us a picture of the door panel and the inner door too.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Mooble said:


> They are a LOT of work, but who wouldn't want a woofer sealed in the perfect volume box?


I wouldn't when those enclosures are going to have horrible pathlengths, be off-axis (or at best angled slightly back), and be attached to very thin sheetmetal (or worse a door panel that is held to the thin sheet metal with clips)---even with several layers of deadener over it. 

Now if you go in there and weld some structural support to the door metal, then bolt the enclosure to the metal and figure out how to get it on axis that gets you closer. Pathlengths are still going to suck, but you at least get closer. 

Doors are horrible places for speakers.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Andy Jones said:


> I wouldn't when those enclosures are going to have horrible pathlengths, be off-axis (or at best angled slightly back), and be attached to very thin sheetmetal (or worse a door panel that is held to the thin sheet metal with clips)---even with several layers of deadener over it.
> 
> Now if you go in there and weld some structural support to the door metal, then bolt the enclosure to the metal and figure out how to get it on axis that gets you closer. Pathlengths are still going to suck, but you at least get closer.
> 
> Doors are horrible places for speakers.


This is a midbass, that at worst will play 500 hz and lower. Why does it matter if it is on-axis or not??


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Andy Jones said:


> I wouldn't when those enclosures are going to have horrible pathlengths, be off-axis (or at best angled slightly back), and be attached to very thin sheetmetal (or worse a door panel that is held to the thin sheet metal with clips)---even with several layers of deadener over it.
> 
> Now if you go in there and weld some structural support to the door metal, then bolt the enclosure to the metal and figure out how to get it on axis that gets you closer. Pathlengths are still going to suck, but you at least get closer.
> 
> Doors are horrible places for speakers.


True but if he's going to cut away sheet metal in order to make the enclosure fit then it will be bolted into the edge of the perimeter of the door frame which is much much stronger then the flat middle area, after all it is the area that anchors the door hinges and the side impact bar. The car is also not a Toyota Jaris.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

The sheet metal in that G35 door is hardly thin or flimsy. The least of my concerns is getting a solid mount to the door ...

How is this any more a concern than mounting a baffle and woofer directly to the door? The enclosure will be primarily fiberglass, it's not going to be heavy ...


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

infiniti23 said:


> The sheet metal in that G35 door is hardly thin or flimsy. The least of my concerns is getting a solid mount to the door ...
> 
> *How is this any more a concern* than mounting a baffle and woofer directly to the door? The enclosure will be primarily fiberglass, it's not going to be heavy ...


I don't know either. My bookshelf speakers don't resonate themselves off the shelf and they are just sitting there, so I don't see how an enclosure being bolted to a door frame would be not be solid enough. The door panel being excited by the sound afterwards, yeah.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Andy Jones said:


> I wouldn't when those enclosures are going to have horrible pathlengths, be off-axis (or at best angled slightly back), and be attached to very thin sheetmetal (or worse a door panel that is held to the thin sheet metal with clips)---even with several layers of deadener over it.
> 
> Now if you go in there and weld some structural support to the door metal, then bolt the enclosure to the metal and figure out how to get it on axis that gets you closer. Pathlengths are still going to suck, but you at least get closer.


Flat on a door yes, although for midbass, even that is mostly irrelevant. I would suspect anyone would try to bring them as close to on-axis as possible. I've seen plenty of cars where kicks won't go on-axis either, at least not while you're driving--maybe if you slide the seat all the way back.

The mounting shouldn't matter provided that it's secure enough to hold the enclosure. The enclosure shouldn't be resonating much in the first place if properly braced and deadened. If you are relying on mounting it to the door to stop vibrations, it's not a good enclosure. Granted, I only had to worry about a 6.5" driver. If you go with a 9" midbass, you obviously encounter many more problems.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> I don't know either. My bookshelf speakers don't resonate themselves off the shelf and they are just sitting there, so I don't see how an enclosure being bolted to a door frame would be not be solid enough. The door panel being excited by the sound afterwards, yeah.


The portion of the door panel that will be more exposed to resonance and excitation is not a problem anyway. It is heavily dampened, the enclosure itself will be heavily dampened, and there will be some type of dampening between the enclosure and the metal ...

I am more concerned with how much low end extension I am going to get. I can tame any peaks because of a higher box Q with EQ ...

I don't care what anybody claims, but you are not going to kill resonance in a sheet metal car door with a 10" midbass with 250+ watts going to it. I feel I have a much better shot with a sealed box ...

The "improved" response of a IB design means nothing if I cannot hear that response over the resonance ...


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Mooble said:


> Flat on a door yes, although for midbass, even that is mostly irrelevant. I would suspect anyone would try to bring them as close to on-axis as possible. I've seen plenty of cars where kicks won't go on-axis either, at least not while you're driving--maybe if you slide the seat all the way back.
> 
> The mounting shouldn't matter provided that it's secure enough to hold the enclosure. The enclosure shouldn't be resonating much in the first place if properly braced and deadened. If you are relying on mounting it to the door to stop vibrations, it's not a good enclosure. Granted, I only had to worry about a 6.5" driver. If you go with a 9" midbass, you obviously encounter many more problems.


There are two sets of resonance problems:

1. The sheet metal covering of the door ...
2. The inside of the actual door ...

I will have to address #1 with a sealed pod ...

#2 will NOT be an issue, as there will be no, or little, moving waves inside the door ...

#1 is not an issue for me. #2 is huge.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

FYI, this is as far as I've gotten on mine so far.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

br85 said:


> Not so easy if it's the door handles rattling  If lock rods rattle some barrier products can make the noise much less invasive but if the door handles are right next to you...
> 
> Agreed about the enclosure though, build it as big as possible and either couple it well (to the door metal) or decouple it with neoprene or other cld. Stuff it with rockwool or R12-R21 fibreglass insulation (loosely) to get more apparent space if you need to as well.


Electric actuated door opener FTW! Spend money where it counts 



Andy Jones said:


> Doors are horrible places for speakers.


Kicks are horrible places for bass drivers. The only way you can get a real sized midbass in there is to sacrifice the rigidity of the car chassis and drive an autotragic. I don't like to drive in a self controlled flimsy metal box so I went with the doors. Not perfect, but better. 




infiniti23 said:


> The portion of the door panel that will be more exposed to resonance and excitation is not a problem anyway. It is heavily dampened, the enclosure itself will be heavily dampened, and there will be some type of dampening between the enclosure and the metal ...
> 
> I am more concerned with how much low end extension I am going to get. I can tame any peaks because of a higher box Q with EQ ...
> 
> ...


What 10 are you going to use that can work with the bit of air you are willing to give it? I don't think it's feasible. You are going to get more box gain than you ever would due to metal resonance. I used several tens, using the whole coupe door is the only way to give it enough volume, I doubt it even thinks it's anything more than sealed. True IB is only in an attic, even my trunk acts as a sealed enclosure. 

I dare you to test a 10 in a door mounted sealed enclosure. I put money that the box will 'sing' more than the actual speaker.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^you know you can cut metal in a vehicle and then reinforce the area around it? 

You also know you can cut some metal in a car and not cause a problem? 

Hell look at theotherhatedguy's old accord. he cut the $hit out of the metal in the kickpanels of his last accord---hit a bridge head on. That cut didn't cause the car to collapse. 

There are areas in a car not to cut. There areas in a car to cut.

I went from midbass in doors, to midbass in kicks vented to the outside---the improvement in the vehicle is beyond belief. Mine only play up to 250hz---they sound better on axis. 

I've actually done this twice. Once in a car and once in a truck. Until you've done it or heard the before and after (done right) you can't imagine the improvement. 

I also lost no foot room in my car with mine.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Doors plain out suck for midbass.

But if you are going to use the doors, save yourself some time and heartache and just do them IB. I've built enclosures in the doors and never will I do it again. 

Listen, how heavy do you think those enclosures will be? Once you get them strong enough so they won't have resonances they will be heavy. Be it wood or fiberglass...it will be heavy. Now, what does this do for the doors? It puts more weight on the hinges and will cause the door to sag. Once you get them built...now you can only roll your windows down 1/3-1/2 what they started at. Then you have to get the enclosures sealed up perfectly. If you don't you will hear air leaks. And if you decide you don't like how they work, you've pretty much just ruined both your doors.

You say the metal isn't flimsy...so why not do them IB? Your door will vibrate the same amount with them IB vs. sealed. There is no way to make enclosures inside the doors AND completely decouple the enclosure from the doors. You are going around your elbow to get to your ******* in terms of a good solution. Everything you are saying about why enclosures would be a good idea are also pros for IB.

And Andy is spot on. Doors suck for speaker locations. Use them only if there is nowhere else to mount the speakers. You would not believe the amount of difference in sound with kick mounted midbasses vs/ door mounted midbasses. It really is a world of difference. The only car that I heard that had door mounted midbasses that had no problems was Randy Eddy's Audi. He had Dyn 8s in the doors IB. The doors weighed a ton.

And you are playing them up to 500 hertz? Probably using the Dyn passives that are 6 dB/octave on top of that. Yeah, you won't be in the thousands of hertz range before the roll off gets high enough to make an audible difference.

Let's face it, most door pods are ugly and stick out much more than kicks would ever protrude. And you still have **** PLDs.

But hey, you do what you want to. You have Andy and I telling you that we've been down that road, and it is a tough road to go down. Not to sound cocky, but between Andy and myself, there isn't anyone else on this thread who has the experience to back up what we are saying.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

I don't know if Andy's is the BMW I have seen with the kick enclosure in the fender, but that's the only way you would not lose space. No other enclosure I've seen would work unless you "drive" an automatic.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Doors plain out suck for midbass.
> 
> But if you are going to use the doors, save yourself some time and heartache and just do them IB. I've built enclosures in the doors and never will I do it again.
> 
> ...


Full of assumptions, borderlining on arrogance I'd say ...

What about the vibration/resonance issues I am having is not translating? I do NOT have problems with the outer sheet metal resonance, only the INSIDE part of the door. My sealed box is NOT going to send waves into the inner part of the door ...

Just mounted the 0.33 cubic foot enclosure I have built to the door, 250 watts applied, run 20 hertz up ...

What a shock, no resonance. How someone figures the resonance issues will be the same in IB and sealed pod I will never, ever understand ...

Never knew it was so difficult to get a SEALED enclosure to be SEALED. I've made MANY, MANY, MANY in my life, pretty simple concept ...

You have only heard one car with door mounted midbass that had no problems? Wow, amazing considering the majority are using midbass drivers in the door ...

Not using passives, never have, never will. Again, don't make assumptions. If I use a midrange dome, they'll see maybe 500 hz. If not, they'll get 250 or so. On/off axis, not an issue for me ...

Unless you've worked on a G35, your assumptions are just that, assumptions. 

You wrote several paragraphs and really didn't tell me anything, other than that my door will sag. I forgot I was driving a 1973 Yugo ...


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

0.33 cubic foot enclosue ...

Dynaudio MW180, 200 hz baseline ...

200 hz 0 db
190 hz -0.6 db
180 hz -0.4 db
170 hz 0.2 db
160 hz 0.2 db
150 hz 0.1 db
140 hz 0.3 db
130 hz 0.8 db
120 hz 1.6 db
110 hz 1.4 db
100 hz 1.1 db
90 hz 0.4 db
80 hz -0.2 db
70 hz 0.3 db
60 hz -0.6 db
50 hz -2.1 db
40 hz -4.9 db
30 hz -10.5 db


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Just bought a cheap door skin on Ebay ...

So if I don't like it, I can just use my original ...


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Doors plain out suck for midbass.
> 
> But if you are going to use the doors, save yourself some time and heartache and just do them IB. I've built enclosures in the doors and never will I do it again.
> 
> ...


How heavy for a .3 cuft solid enclosure? 8 pounds? This _1.25cuft_ fiberglass _sub_ enclosure weighs in at 13 pounds. 

I could be wrong since I have no experience ever making a door pod but it seems to me that that added weight _near the hinge_ (ie least leverage possible) is not a lot for a full size quality sedan (do they upgrade hinges when they make a coupe version with the longer doors . That considerable added weight from the extra door material _on the end of the door_ (ie where leverage is greatest) must put way more then 10 pounds of stress on those hinges due to leverage when compared to the pods. 

Add to that the reduction in weight from the couple of layers (ie 12sqft, 6ish pound) of deadener you won't need to use because you won't have the rear waves vibrating the hell out of everything inside that door cavity. Surely a single layer out of the double or more typically used on the inner and outer skins will be enough to not let the front wave wrap around and vibrate things the way an IB setup does. 

And the window can roll all the way down if you really want it to.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Andy Jones said:


> ^you know you can cut metal in a vehicle and then reinforce the area around it?
> 
> You also know you can cut some metal in a car and not cause a problem?
> 
> ...


What driver and how big are the kick panel enclosures?


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## geom_tol (Jul 9, 2007)

infiniti23 said:


> Full of assumptions, borderlining on arrogance I'd say ...
> 
> What about the vibration/resonance issues I am having is not translating? I do NOT have problems with the outer sheet metal resonance, only the INSIDE part of the door. My sealed box is NOT going to send waves into the inner part of the door ...
> 
> ...


0.33cuft is about 2.5 Ga. So probably 3Ga exterior volume. How did you fit something like that in your doors? (I visualize three one Ga milk jugs, just can't picture it). I've wanted to build sealed pods myself but I can't find the room in my doors.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I've worked on more than one car in my day.

But if you know so much, why come here asking questions?

So, you just built the enclosure in the door that you are going to use?

Andy is using the Genesis version of the Revelator 7.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

So wait, you just built this enclosure inside your door but last week you needed someone to make you some MDF rings?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Andy Jones said:


> ^you know you can cut metal in a vehicle and then reinforce the area around it?
> 
> You also know you can cut some metal in a car and not cause a problem?
> 
> ...


That's all great but worthless unless you tell which metal is useless in the car or how to reinforce it after chopping. There is a lot more to the chassis than ability to crash into things. You can change the entire character of the vehicle by weakening its rigidity, you can even go from understanding to oversteering. I've cut some inner door metal before because that is indeed useless if you don't use it as a speaker baffle but a kick? 




infiniti23 said:


> Full of assumptions, borderlining on arrogance I'd say ...
> 
> What about the vibration/resonance issues I am having is not translating? I do NOT have problems with the outer sheet metal resonance, only the INSIDE part of the door. My sealed box is NOT going to send waves into the inner part of the door ...
> 
> ...


It's not bordering arrogance it IS arrogance. If you haven't seen hated guy in action before that's just how it is. He thinks people hate him because he's car is just too good to be true, women orgasm upon sight of it. 

I have no reason to believe you can't seal the box. But here's the thing, what if you just build the outerskin of the lower half of the door and not the inner? It can bolt to the edge of the door frame where it is strongest and you can still decouple it like you would the sealed arrangement. You will have only to gain more enclosure volume and flow behind the driver. 

Btw I thought we were talking about 10s here. Isn't the 180 simply 180mm?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

No, not 10s. The 180 is more like a 7 than an 8. A really badassed 7 that gets down.

General rule of thumb is single layer sheet metal in a unibody car is non structural. The torque boxes and rockers will be double or triple plated sheet metal. How do you add strength back to the cut area? Box the area in with steel and weld it up. I think you are over exaggerating handling changes with the size of area that needs to be cut here. Plus how many cars with serious stereo systems are autocrossed? Not very many I would venture to say.

And no, it's not being cocky or arrogant. I can back my talk.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> No, not 10s. The 180 is more like a 7 than an 8. A really badassed 7 that gets down.
> 
> General rule of thumb is single layer sheet metal in a unibody car is non structural. The torque boxes and rockers will be double or triple plated sheet metal. How do you add strength back to the cut area? Box the area in with steel and weld it up. I think you are over exaggerating handling changes with the size of area that needs to be cut here. Plus how many cars with serious stereo systems are autocrossed? Not very many I would venture to say.
> 
> And no, it's not being cocky or arrogant. *I can back my talk*.


How much does a .33 cuft door pod typically weigh then?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> No, not 10s. The 180 is more like a 7 than an 8. A really badassed 7 that gets down.
> 
> General rule of thumb is single layer sheet metal in a unibody car is non structural. The torque boxes and rockers will be double or triple plated sheet metal. How do you add strength back to the cut area? Box the area in with steel and weld it up. I think you are over exaggerating handling changes with the size of area that needs to be cut here. Plus how many cars with serious stereo systems are autocrossed? Not very many I would venture to say.
> 
> And no, it's not being cocky or arrogant. I can back my talk.


I want to see this. All the metal in my kick area is doubled. I did two 2.25inch holes and tested the FR in WinMLS, no change in output, still got the small kick gains and resonance. To do an effective job imo is to cut the same size hole right behind the driver and vent into a space that is large enough for a midbass to breathe. If you are ok with a dinky setup a 7 with about 12liters would work. If you serious with an 8 or 10 I want to see how you magically find 25-75 liters to make em breathe. 

When you claim "there isn't anyone else on this thread who has the experience to back up what we are saying" you are being an arrogant prick. Look up the definition, it has you name in it.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

How much does an enclosure like that weigh? What is it made out of? How much bracing would it have? How thick is the fiberglass? What are you going to use to kill resonances? My last kickpanels weighed in at 15 pounds when I was done with them...and that was just big enough to house the 8" midrange I was using.

For the people who are wanting to argue, how many of you have actually done what he is talking about doing?

George I can't help that a lot of things I have done in the past years is over your head and out of your ability area. And you find that space because the areas you are going are open to the outside of the car. But you knew that already.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> How much does an enclosure like that weigh? What is it made out of? How much bracing would it have? How thick is the fiberglass? What are you going to use to kill resonances? My last kickpanels weighed in at 15 pounds when I was done with them...and that was just big enough to house the 8" midrange I was using.
> 
> For the people who are wanting to argue, how many of you have actually done what he is talking about doing?
> 
> George I can't help that a lot of things I have done in the past years is over your head and out of your ability area. And you find that space because the areas you are going are open to the outside of the car. But you knew that already.


Apparently the whole DIYMA board is clueless about your infinite wisdom master. 

Venting to the outside is dumb for many reasons, I can think of at least three: dirt/water intrusion, a loop for road noise to fill the enclosure and ultimately the glass house, it's ghetto, sound is almost as loud outside the cabin. I know at least two installers that have cut metal before, I don't know whether it was vented out or not but it proves that you are not the holly grail and you ARE full of ****. 

You are right venting in a man's ass is not in my ability area, I see you have quite the track record for that...years. It's just a hobby guy, let's just enjoy it, no one cares about the best car or whatever, it's an egotistic hobby we only care about what's ours, it's for our own enjoyment for the most part. This path you are on, it's a one man race...


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

my experience:

with the dyn 8 in my door freeair, it was ok, but had lots of resonance. I had layers of dynamat, but I attribute alot of that to the fact that ford truck doors are the flimsiest out there  It was solidly mounted blah blah blah. nothing helped.

I then went to floor mounted midbass's freeair with an 8" dirver and a 6" round hole right behind the driver. Granted the drivers are made for IB use. I will simply say I will never go back to door mounted speakers again if I can.

Now, to be direct on the OP's original question....I have heard the dyn 8's in a sealed enclosure in a door (john witledges van) and they sounded great.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

I see George is now calling me dumb and getto  Its all good


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You are talking ghetto? Have you went outside and looked at your own car lately?

You know a whopping 2 other people who has done that. Wow. You are a fountain of install knowledge.



cvjoint said:


> Apparently the whole DIYMA board is clueless about your infinite wisdom master.
> 
> Venting to the outside is dumb for many reasons, I can think of at least three: dirt/water intrusion, a loop for road noise to fill the enclosure and ultimately the glass house, it's ghetto, sound is almost as loud outside the cabin. I know at least two installers that have cut metal before, I don't know whether it was vented out or not but it proves that you are not the holly grail and you ARE full of ****.
> 
> You are right venting in a man's ass is not in my ability area, I see you have quite the track record for that...years. It's just a hobby guy, let's just enjoy it, no one cares about the best car or whatever, it's an egotistic hobby we only care about what's ours, it's for our own enjoyment for the most part. This path you are on, it's a one man race...


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> How much does an enclosure like that weigh? *What is it made out of? How much bracing would it have? How thick is the fiberglass? What are you going to use to kill resonances? My last kickpanels weighed in at 15 pounds when I was done with them...and that was just big enough to house the 8" midrange I was using.
> 
> For the people who are wanting to argue, how many of you have actually done what he is talking about doing?*
> 
> George I can't help that a lot of things I have done in the past years is over your head and out of your ability area. And you find that space because the areas you are going are open to the outside of the car. But you knew that already.


You do you. To everyone else, read and do what you feel is best.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

BigRed said:


> my experience:
> 
> with the dyn 8 in my door freeair, it was ok, but had lots of resonance. I had layers of dynamat, but I attribute alot of that to the fact that ford truck doors are the flimsiest out there  It was solidly mounted blah blah blah. nothing helped.
> 
> ...


I may be wrong on this but John's midbass were installed on a large fiberglass piece that was secured at the edge of the door. I think he used that as a baffle only, and the door as the enclosure. 

I do like your new setup better than the one in the door. I didn't claim to know just how you got it done, from what I remember you telling me it's an actual cubicle you found in the footwell. I didn't think we would have that available in an Accord. I just mentioned two setups because this guy thinks he's the only one alive to try it...hmm sorry in the DIYMA community.



thehatedguy said:


> You are talking ghetto? Have you went outside and looked at your own car lately?
> 
> You know a whopping 2 other people who has done that. Wow. You are a fountain of install knowledge.


No, I don't go outside my car, I generally teleport in from my office. Luckily someone is always looking in my but hole to pick at things. Next time I need change lost under the car seat I'll know who to pm. Where are the pics btw? Install thread? :sleeping:


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> So wait, you just built this enclosure inside your door but last week you needed someone to make you some MDF rings?


Wow, you are a real ******* aren't you?

I don't really see how my ability to cut basic square shapes with wood, coupled with pretty good skills with fiberglassing, has anything to do with my ability to make nice MDF rings ...

Maybe I just don't have the tools to make really nice rings and I am willing to pay somebody who does. But you are right, I must be way in over my head ...

I come here asking questions because I wanted opinions, not snide ass arrogant remarks. I don't care how many cars you've worked on, I've worked on plenty myself. But just because I don't want to conform doesn't mean I don't know what I am doing, nor does it mean I cannot succeed in whatever I want to ...

So many dispute the ability to get good midbass from this driver in a sealed box, yet I got confirmation directly from Dynaudio today that I'd likely have great results. I wonder which opinion I should trust most ....


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> So wait, you just built this enclosure inside your door but last week you needed someone to make you some MDF rings?


And apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit either. I slapped together a simple 0.33 cubic foot box to see how the driver would perform. I haven't done anything in my door yet ...


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## dkm201 (Nov 29, 2007)

It seems like there are 10s you can use that would be more optimal for a .33 cu ft enclosure... 

Parts-Express.com:Tang Band WT-1427B 10" Neo Subwoofer | subwoofer 10" subwoofer low profile thin mount neodynium subwoofer tangband tb speakers


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Just got a new car. When I get started working on it, there will be pictures of it either here or elsewhere.

I never said they wouldn't work well in a sealed enclosure, did I? Or did I say that getting a sealed enclosure inside your door be hard, counter productive, and a non-optimal location? Since you wanted to throw the reading comprehension card...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

infiniti23 said:


> So many dispute the ability to get good midbass from this driver in a sealed box, yet I got confirmation directly from Dynaudio today that I'd likely have great results. I wonder which opinion I should trust most ....


Mmmm have you tried to plot in in WinISD or some other software program? It's a good start go get a feel for what box you may need. I personally like to plug in 3rd party tests like Zaph's in WinISD as the best opinion. I've head great luck with .7 and under Q. Everything over that spec it's been a disaster especially extremes.

If sealed is what you want to do and you can satisfy the volume requirement than go for it. There is plenty of benefits this route, like dirt free environment for the coil, more predictable output under widow up/down conditions. In some cars the door has a considerable amount of tail wind coiling up in the door and it may move the cone in unwanted ways in an IB setup. I personally think the manufacturers are always going to recommend setups in their own best interest, sealed is on the safer side as far as whether conditions go so they will always recommend it with door mounted drivers.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Its ok George, I didnt take it personally.

Here is the description of John's doors from his website

"One of the most important design goals of my system was to have the front sound stage deliver as much of the low frequency spectrum as possible. This necessitated the use of large transducers in the front cockpit area. For my Mercedes-built Dodge Sprinter, the only viable location for these transducers was the doors. Luckily, this placement, relative to the midrange transducers, positioned the acoustical centers among the transducers within reasonable physical alignment. I believed the use of the largest possible transducer, preferably 10 inches (254 mm) in diameter, in a* sealed* box, with the lowest possible resonant frequency, would provide optimum performance. The use of Dynaudio’s MW180 transducer was nearly optimal, owing to its low profile depth, low resonant frequency, and excellent *sealed box *performance. Given an automobile door’s propensity to rattle and vibrate, I believed the use of a *sealed enclosure*, rubber-isolated from the door, would provide the best performance. Because of the *sealed enclosure’s* required volume, custom door panels were required. Logically, the door panels were also isolated from the *sealed enclosures.* Just about every step of the design and fabrication process focussed on increasing rigidity, reducing or eliminating mechanical and acoustical resonances, and maximizing the damping of the structures for the enclosures and door panels. The bare door enclosures, for example, each weigh about 35 pounds (156 N), and each of the door panels weigh about 15 pounds (67 N)! I believe the use of Cascade Audio’s well-engineered products were essential to achieving my goals."


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Quite a bit of extensive work that really should not be needed IMO. Ironically I had the same car ( '05 though ) where these exact drivers made their home about 2.5 years ago. The new owner is still running them strong to this day, in fact these are his subs as well. IB with a fair amount of acoustic treatment in a well implemented install will yield excellent results.

Ive also used these drivers in a few other vehicles ..

Couple more G35s
Nissan Maxima
Nissan Altima
Mercedes E55 AMG
Porsche Cayenne
Etc .. 

All the same way, all with very similar results.

Side note: I have seen a few reference these as " 8s, but really 7s ". NOT the case and your thinking of the 170/172s. 180/182 is the 9".


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

BigRed said:


> my experience:
> 
> with the dyn 8 in my door freeair, it was ok, but had lots of resonance. I had layers of dynamat, but I attribute alot of that to the fact that ford truck doors are the flimsiest out there  It was solidly mounted blah blah blah. nothing helped.
> 
> ...



Jim, are you implying the driver itself created the resonance that you had issues with ? This would apply regardless of driver - it's your cavity/panels. Yes, yes I know what you meant and am having fun breaking your balls, but the OP may not have understood properly. 

BTW .. John has the MW180s ( 9" ), not the 8s.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

BigRed said:


> Its ok George, I didnt take it personally.
> 
> Here is the description of John's doors from his website
> 
> "One of the most important design goals of my system was to have the front sound stage deliver as much of the low frequency spectrum as possible. This necessitated the use of large transducers in the front cockpit area. For my Mercedes-built Dodge Sprinter, the only viable location for these transducers was the doors. Luckily, this placement, relative to the midrange transducers, positioned the acoustical centers among the transducers within reasonable physical alignment. I believed the use of the largest possible transducer, preferably 10 inches (254 mm) in diameter, in a* sealed* box, with the lowest possible resonant frequency, would provide optimum performance. The use of Dynaudio’s MW180 transducer was nearly optimal, owing to its low profile depth, low resonant frequency, and excellent *sealed box *performance. Given an automobile door’s propensity to rattle and vibrate, I believed the use of a *sealed enclosure*, rubber-isolated from the door, would provide the best performance. Because of the *sealed enclosure’s* required volume, custom door panels were required. Logically, the door panels were also isolated from the *sealed enclosures.* Just about every step of the design and fabrication process focussed on increasing rigidity, reducing or eliminating mechanical and acoustical resonances, and maximizing the damping of the structures for the enclosures and door panels. The bare door enclosures, for example, each weigh about 35 pounds (156 N), and each of the door panels weigh about 15 pounds (67 N)! I believe the use of Cascade Audio’s well-engineered products were essential to achieving my goals."


That's more homework than I did, I just looked at his photo album when we were at Marv's.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

dkm201 said:


> It seems like there are 10s you can use that would be more optimal for a .33 cu ft enclosure...
> 
> Parts-Express.com:Tang Band WT-1427B 10" Neo Subwoofer | subwoofer 10" subwoofer low profile thin mount neodynium subwoofer tangband tb speakers


Oh my, this is a monster. It has 50% more surface area than the Dyn and more than twice the linear throw! It's a beast, I like...


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

That's my kickpanel. It has a Genesis Absolute 7"











the kickpanel I built for my truck for an Incriminator Audio 6 1/2" is made the vehicle, but if you could get it out and weigh it---it would easily weigh in the 10lb plus range.

Good luck with 3lb enclosure playing 40hz and not resonating. I don't see how that can happen. Maybe we have different levels of expectations, but I don't see it.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Andy Jones said:


> That's my kickpanel. It has a Genesis Absolute 7"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pics of the build?


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

being done on sounddomain, but I haven't had time to load pics. I'm trying to get two vehicles ready fo a big show. It will be afte DSN.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

G'luck at DSN


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

No Don, not implying that the driver was the problem in my door....you are right, any driver would have created those issues 

Its all good


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I always get my Dyn sizes confizzled. 

Isn't that TB 10 the one that caused a bit of a stirring with eD a while back?

Door mounted enclosures are just a pain that you really don't need or have to go through. IB works really well. The time and effort it takes to make a proper sealed enclosure would net you the same or better gains going IB.

If you have to use the doors, use them...but for serious audio play back, the doors just aren't optimal.


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

You guys really are very lucky to be able to use kicks in most of your cars. See, over here, with cars being right hand drive, 95% of cars or more (since the 90's) have the accelerator pedal JAMMED up against the kick panel area, and modification is very expensive (given how few people are skilled in the area, they know they can charge a fortune and get away with it), so we pretty much HAVE to use the doors, except in high vehicles, where floorpan mounting is an option.

In our situation, most people just go IB in the doors out of laziness and I've yet to hear anyone play midbass this way under 100hz at decent spls without majorly offputting door resonances. Really doesn't matter how much dynamat and tac mat they use.

Best bet IMO (you'll have to be skilled or pay someone with skill to do it) would be to cut out most of the metal on the inner door skin (for maximum space), and build an "enclosure within an enclosure" type deal. Mount the outer enclosure using bolts/screws/whatever you need to the the door structure (outer enclosure shouldn't need a font baffle) and line it fully with polyethylene or neoprene CCF with decent compression recovery.Use advesive to install the inner enclosure (sealed, houses the driver, heavy front baffle). If you want to make it look good you'll probably have to make the best part of a new door trim (don't let the overall trim touch the front baffle of the inner enclosure) to suit.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Well fact is, going back and looking at the car very thoroughly, I can build enclosure in the kicks that would be significantly bigger than the door enclosures, and with the way I sit when I drive, I would not be sacrificing any leg room ...

The question is, how critical is it to get the midbass driver playing in the 400-500 hz range on axis? If I can fire the drivers directly across at one another, I can get the enclosure even bigger ....


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## dkm201 (Nov 29, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> Oh my, this is a monster. It has 50% more surface area than the Dyn and more than twice the linear throw! It's a beast, I like...


Check out how small a sealed enclosure you can use... it seems pretty perfect for a car.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^where are you in Alabama?


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Huntsville ...


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

infiniti23 said:


> Well fact is, going back and looking at the car very thoroughly, I can build enclosure in the kicks that would be significantly bigger than the door enclosures, and with the way I sit when I drive, I would not be sacrificing any leg room ...
> 
> The question is, how critical is it to get the midbass driver playing in the 400-500 hz range on axis? If I can fire the drivers directly across at one another, I can get the enclosure even bigger ....


Are you sure you want to have such a low xover point (requiring a stronger heavier bigger enclosure). That's a hell of a lot of vibrations to your ankles if you go with that idea. Plus you most likely won't have a dead pedal that IMO is CRITICAL for safety reasons since it's what you _stand on_ when in a head on collision.

You could go with a higher xover point with a door enclosure and have greater output while still having good performance in all areas.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Are you sure you want to have such a low xover point (requiring a stronger heavier bigger enclosure). That's a hell of a lot of vibrations to your ankles if you go with that idea. Plus you most likely won't have a dead pedal that IMO is CRITICAL for safety reasons since it's what you _stand on_ when in a head on collision.
> 
> You could go with a higher xover point with a door enclosure and have greater output while still having good performance in all areas.


I will either have vibrations firing into my ankle or into my knee if they were in the door ...

I've never been in a head on collision, but I never rest my foot on my dead pedal, and I don't imagine that is where it is going to go. In that event, my foot would be resting on a rock solid speaker enclosure ...

I want big, low frequency drivers up front. I will have to sacrifice something to get them ...

And going with a higher cutoff doesn't help. It's that 60-80 hz range that really gets the panels resonating. No way in hell I am cutting my midbass above 60 hz....


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

IF you can get placement correct, then the kicks will pay off for you. Really, in the 100-500 hertz range angling of the drivers is not that crucial..also have to remember the harmonics and how steep of a XO slope you are using.

You could probably fudge some on the enclosure size by venting them into the rocker too.

I think Andy and Jim would agree with me, that if you can do it, the kicks will pay greater dividends in performance over the doors.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> IF you can get placement correct, then the kicks will pay off for you. Really, in the 100-500 hertz range angling of the drivers is not that crucial..also have to remember the harmonics and how steep of a XO slope you are using.
> 
> You could probably fudge some on the enclosure size by venting them into the rocker too.
> 
> I think Andy and Jim would agree with me, that if you can do it, the kicks will pay greater dividends in performance over the doors.



From what I've read, I can use TWO ScanSpeak AP vents per enclosure. Any validity to this?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

****, being in Huntsville, you need to get up with David Hogan. He has one of the best sounding vehicles going these days. One helluva nice guy too. He normally judges the MECA shows in the area too. I think his user name on this forum is SQ4ME.

And loosing the dead pedal...I wouldn't worry about it. You have a head on collision, you have bigger things to worry about than if you have a dead pedal or not.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You should be able to use one. I think one is good for speakers up to 10"



infiniti23 said:


> From what I've read, I can use TWO ScanSpeak AP vents per enclosure. Any validity to this?


----------



## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> ****, being in Huntsville, you need to get up with David Hogan. He has one of the best sounding vehicles going these days. One helluva nice guy too. He normally judges the MECA shows in the area too. I think his user name on this forum is SQ4ME.
> 
> And loosing the dead pedal...I wouldn't worry about it. You have a head on collision, you have bigger things to worry about than if you have a dead pedal or not.


Well, all this chit chat is great, appreciate input from everybody, both positive and negative ...

But none of it means jack shizzit until I get out there and build something ...

So I'm gonna get on it, should be interesting molding the kick panel on the drivers side. A bunch of crap down there I will have to mold around ....


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> You should be able to use one. I think one is good for speakers up to 10"


Does it matter where I vent it? I'll have options of course, into the carpet, into the kick, up into the dash ...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Hit up David, see if he can give you a hand. There are a ton of people in Alabama with some SERIOUS sounding cars. Andy is down south a bit of you...Steve Cook has a shop AudioX that does great work and his Avalanche is incredible sounding. Actually any of Schil Acoustic guys in Alabama would be a great local/semi local asset to have...and they all are a great bunch of guys.

You really want that vent to open up into an area that can get outside of the car. Into the kick would be excellent. I wouldn't want to go under the dash because you will hear the back wave, and that could get a bit funky sounding.

Sorry about the attitude. Just trying to save you some serious work that has little returns. Doing sealed enclosures in the doors is a major chore. I sent 4-5 days chasing baby powder testing for leaks. Something that we didn't talk about was water drainage if you were making the enclosure inside the doors.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Which midranges are you using?

Have you tried fitting the midbasses flat against the firewall?


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Hit up David, see if he can give you a hand. There are a ton of people in Alabama with some SERIOUS sounding cars. Andy is down south a bit of you...Steve Cook has a shop AudioX that does great work and his Avalanche is incredible sounding. Actually any of Schil Acoustic guys in Alabama would be a great local/semi local asset to have...and they all are a great bunch of guys.
> 
> You really want that vent to open up into an area that can get outside of the car. Into the kick would be excellent. I wouldn't want to go under the dash because you will hear the back wave, and that could get a bit funky sounding.
> 
> Sorry about the attitude. Just trying to save you some serious work that has little returns. Doing sealed enclosures in the doors is a major chore. I sent 4-5 days chasing baby powder testing for leaks. Something that we didn't talk about was water drainage if you were making the enclosure inside the doors.



No problem at all ...

I'm just not afraid to try crazy stuff, that's the DIY attitude I guess ...

I just want to truly achieve some crazy midbass, that's always been the weak link in this car. I have been able to achieve great center image, stage wider than the car, nice tonality, only to have midbass as my weakness due to resonance, and that resonance screws up everything ...


----------



## br85 (May 2, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Sorry about the attitude. Just trying to save you some serious work that has little returns. Doing sealed enclosures in the doors is a major chore. I sent 4-5 days chasing baby powder testing for leaks. Something that we didn't talk about was water drainage if you were making the enclosure inside the doors.


So why doesn't a guy spend the extra time building the enclosures off the doors, and attaching later? This way, leaks should NEVER be a problem. Just means you gotta keep walking checking against the door to make sure you haven't fvcked it all up. Probably means making new door cards too, but more difficult things have been done in car audio for worse reasons...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Because it is pretty hard getting that size of an enclosure in the door without completely taking out the window tracks and cutting the entire inner door skin. Can it be done? Sure. Is it easy to do? Not so much.

Plus those Dyns...man, they jam IB. I heard a set the other week IB and they made me want some bad. I mean BAD.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Because it is pretty hard getting that size of an enclosure in the door without completely taking out the window tracks and cutting the entire inner door skin. Can it be done? Sure. Is it easy to do? Not so much.


X2. 

And he IS answering the question posed in the original post... few of us did


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Because it is pretty hard getting that size of an enclosure in the door without completely taking out the window tracks and cutting the entire inner door skin. Can it be done? Sure. Is it easy to do? Not so much.
> 
> Plus those Dyns...man, they jam IB. I heard a set the other week IB and they made me want some bad. I mean BAD.


I see no reason to take out the window tracks if you're willing to extrude the pod well into the cabin space, out from the door. I personally, am going to put my back board for the enclosure housing (not the driver housing btw) flush up against the window tracks (the outside of the tracks themselves but on the side closest to the inner skin, and glass out to where the innerskin was, for structural rigidity. I may have to do some tricky work to allow the winder gear to move all the way down, but even with my unco-ordinated hands it shouldn't be that hard (just very time consuming).

Making it removable for future servicing makes is a smite tougher, but again, mostly just more time. I would hardly expect a professional installer to do it this way unless they charged a fortune. Then it's a simpler matter again to build the driver enclosure and glue it in to the outer housing (with some decoupling foam of course!)

I realize you guys were providing the answer (it's too hard), but somehow I don't think that was the answer he is after. I agree to an extent, that 99% of 10" drivers aren't going to work like that, it's a pipedream.

I myself am going to use 4 X aurasound NS-4's per side for mibass (63-250hz) in such an enclosure. Laugh if you will, but given the wavelengths involved, specs of the drivers and amount of power I've got on tap, it should work out very nicely. (I might need a first order lowpass filter in conjunction with the crossover to get the desired response, but we'll see)


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

infiniti23 said:


> The door handle assemblies on these cars rattle, rattle, rattle, and it cannot be stopped. There is no easy way to dissemble it and fix that issue ...


Decouple the midbass from the door. It will reduce direct transfer of vibrations. It worked for me.


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> Decouple the midbass from the door. It will reduce direct transfer of vibrations. It worked for me.


It will also allow the driver basket to move while playing. Not a good idea.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

IMO, such large door pods look tacky and unprofessional. They look out of place, and probably don't serve much purpose.

If you are going to go all out, man up and port those puppies.


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> IMO, such large door pods look tacky and unprofessional. They look out of place, and probably don't serve much purpose.
> 
> If you are going to go all out, man up and port those puppies.


I WANT to port them, I really do. I should be real creative and do an external port, up through the armrest and fire it on axis up near the dash. you've got me thinking, dammit!!!:surprised:


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

br85 said:


> I WANT to port them, I really do. I should be real creative and do an external port, up through the armrest and fire it on axis up near the dash. you've got me thinking, dammit!!!:surprised:


It's the time alignment that worries me about multiple driver setups. Works great in HT where you have infinite everything.


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> It's the time alignment that worries me about multiple driver setups. Works great in HT where you have infinite everything.


Que?

You can use a speaker 16" in diameter without T/A but you can't use an array of 4"s just as long? We're talking about MIDBASS here, not tweeters, or even mids. At 250hz we're not even 90 degrees out of phase, even at the worst possible listening spot. It'll be fine.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

the othe problem with big door pods that protrude out into the cabin is you are shortening pathlengths. 

Also I can't imagine a midbass that only plays down to 63hz. You are leaving a good amount of information out that a good midbass in the proper setup can play.


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

I can't imagine expecting below 63hz out of doors, ever. Not without godawful rattles anyway.

And as I've already said, can't do kickpanels in 95% of cars this far down south with that pesky accelerator pedal in the way.

Any suggestions then?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Import a left hand drive car


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

after getting my midbass's out of the door, I will never go back  hatedguy is right....the benefits are more than marginal. just my .02


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

br85 said:


> Que?
> 
> You can use a speaker 16" in diameter without T/A but you can't use an array of 4"s just as long? We're talking about MIDBASS here, not tweeters, or even mids. At 250hz we're not even 90 degrees out of phase, even at the worst possible listening spot. It'll be fine.


vow vow where did the 16" speaker come from? The sub? That plays a different frequency range, it's a different ball game. In order to get the same output from 4" speakers you would need how many to equate a decent 10? It's also a matter of how close you sit next to your speakers on the left side. 

Both locations have weaknesses, it's knowing which these are and choosing according to what YOU like best that will make the decision better. Experiences are not the same across individuals, I've personally had awe full experiences even trying to run midranges in the kicks. If you choose to go this route I would try to find simplicity sound's posts regarding the matter. IMO he was the closest to getting kick mounted midbasses kosher. Then again that was a 6.5 driver, a 9 would be a different story again. 

I'm liking the door option myself. I got 270mm drivers flush mounted in these doors before with minimal resonance at full power. The XXLS drivers are the only ones that rape my doors at full twist but it's a bit overkill anyway.


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> vow vow where did the 16" speaker come from? The sub? That plays a different frequency range, it's a different ball game.


Na, not talking about the sub. talking about the approximate width of a 4 X 4" array. Plenty of 15" pro drivers will play well up in the frequency range, so as far as actual sizes are concerned, at 250hz a 16" array should have very few limitations.


> In order to get the same output from 4" speakers you would need how many to equate a decent 10? It's also a matter of how close you sit next to your speakers on the left side.


4 X 4" speakers are about the same cone area as an 8". With a decent xmax, power handling, and fs, there's every chance you'll get adequate output.


> Both locations have weaknesses, it's knowing which these are and choosing according to what YOU like best that will make the decision better. Experiences are not the same across individuals, I've personally had awe full experiences even trying to run midranges in the kicks. If you choose to go this route I would try to find simplicity sound's posts regarding the matter.


I would love to use kicks, I really would. We have to drive from the right hand side of the car, end of story. No room next to the accelerator pedal in any car I've owned.


> I'm liking the door option myself. I got 270mm drivers flush mounted in these doors before with minimal resonance at full power. The XXLS drivers are the only ones that rape my doors at full twist but it's a bit overkill anyway.


XXLS in a door, respect.


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## jayhawkblk (May 29, 2007)

well this has been an interesting thread. I dont post my thoughts often but I feel that I need to interject on this one. I feel the op is creating more work than it is worth. Ie t have run the 182's in a few of my vehicals and have heard them set up in a few others. These things are made to run ib in the door with no problem. I recently had them in my 08 xB. I also heard them in Don's G35 which gave me the idea to use them. Like he I ran them ib in the doors. I had no resonance issues at all. Lets face it and xB is not built as well as a G35. I also saw Don on Memorial Day weekend and had an opportunity to listen to the 182's in the doors of the SS Trailblazer. Man all I can tell you is wow. We turned the sub off and only ran the doors. It did not miss a beat hit low was fast and accurate. There was also no rattles. I feel the 182's would be a supreme chose for large midbass and to run them ib in the doors would be the easiest way to do it and do it well. just my .02 cents


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

br85 said:


> Na, not talking about the sub. talking about the approximate width of a 4 X 4" array. Plenty of 15" pro drivers will play well up in the frequency range, so as far as actual sizes are concerned, at 250hz a 16" array should have very few limitations.
> 
> 4 X 4" speakers are about the same cone area as an 8". With a decent xmax, power handling, and fs, there's every chance you'll get adequate output.
> 
> ...


I need a link or some sort for the 4, it has to be a little beast. Take for example as Seas Nextel 10 and a Seas nextel 4. The sd on the 4 is 50cm2, and on the 10 it's 330cm2. You would need 6 to 7 drivers to get back the same cone surface. Xmax is more then twice as much on the 10 so you need to double the amount of drivers, we are at 14 drivers. Now let's look at midbass frequency sensitivity, it's about 6 db lower at 90hz... How many drivers do you need now to replicate the output of a 10? I see the array as being heavier, less efficient, incorrectly time aligned, harder to install, and troublesome for troubleshooting. Why?


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> I need a link or some sort for the 4, it has to be a little beast. Take for example as Seas Nextel 10 and a Seas nextel 4. The sd on the 4 is 50cm2, and on the 10 it's 330cm2. You would need 6 to 7 drivers to get back the same cone surface. Xmax is more then twice as much on the 10 so you need to double the amount of drivers, we are at 14 drivers. Now let's look at midbass frequency sensitivity, it's about 6 db lower at 90hz... How many drivers do you need now to replicate the output of a 10? I see the array as being heavier, *less efficient, incorrectly time aligned*, harder to install, and troublesome for troubleshooting. Why?


And my true agenda surfaces. 

Converting to electric windows, either by getting used doors with parts in the or by getting stuff fitted is in excess of $700, the entire cost of my frontstage. With my window cranks where they are I cannot fit 2 X 6.5's or an 8" and have got no hope of a 10". And kicks are also not an option (throttle).

I CAN fit 4 X 4" AND a sealed enclosure (neo motors mean not so heavy). Modelling has suggested that at 1 watt, the 4" is only 72db efficient at 63hz (as low as I'd run them anyway). They can handle 20 watts RMS each:

1 watt: 72db @ 63hz
2: 75db
4: 78db
8: 81db
16: 84db

NOT very much output at all, in fact, disgusting, BUT, 2 drivers

32 watts (total): 90db @ 63hz (looks wrong but consider coupling gain math and it makes sense)

and 4 drivers

64 watts (total): 96db @ 63hz

PER SIDE (if phase allowed us to sum sides perfectly we'd have 102db output total at what is going to be the weakest frequency in my whole car).
My guess, after considering loading space and cabin gain, I'll have 105db capable midbass trying to perform the hardest part. Not bad for some cheap 4" fullrange drivers.

And since I'll have 250 watts of power per side to play with (and these widebanders have very good xmax), spl and dynamics shouldn't be a problem.

I'll get over it if it's not enough, the subs will still be pushing out some spl at 63 anyway.

Because the response drops off so much at 100hz, I may have to incorporate a -6db/octave lowpass at about 80hz to avoid the headache of eq'ing that.

I've bolded the parts of your post that are not particularly well thought out. Have a think about what time alignment means in an array (steering only - I'll explain that if you need me too), and also consider how efficiency is affected by placing drivers in an array (i.e. for 4 drivers you can add 6db to the eff of a single driver, and you've also got more power handling now too)


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

br85 said:


> And my true agenda surfaces.
> 
> Converting to electric windows, either by getting used doors with parts in the or by getting stuff fitted is in excess of $700, the entire cost of my frontstage. With my window cranks where they are I cannot fit 2 X 6.5's or an 8" and have got no hope of a 10". And kicks are also not an option (throttle).
> 
> ...


ummm I don't think you get any of the line array benefits for the frequency band you are working on. Midbass frequenices are so long you would need a heck of a lot more than 4 pieces to get the array benefits. You would also better get them on axis:

"A line array is a line of woofers carefully spaced so that *constructive interference occurs on-axis* of the array and *destructive interference (combing) is aimed to the sides*. While combing has traditionally been considered undesirable, line arrays use combing to work: without combing, there would be no directivity."

"At frequencies below 100 Hz, the drivers in a practical line array will be omni-directional but the array length will be small compared with the sound wavelength, so the system will not conform to line array theory."

Source:
Can Line Arrays Form Cylindrical Waves? A Line Array Theory Q & A

If you can't get standard single drivers in line arrays are not going to be easier or even feasible. You can form a line array of tweeters 

U seem to have the devil car to work with. Have you considered pillar mount for most of your gear? You need a high output 3 or 4 to get down to 160hz or so. I would then use a sub crossed high.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> ummm I don't think you get any of the line array benefits for the frequency band you are working on. Midbass frequenices are so long you would need a heck of a lot more than 4 pieces to get the array benefits. You would also better get them on axis:
> 
> "A line array is a line of woofers carefully spaced so that *constructive interference occurs on-axis* of the array and *destructive interference (combing) is aimed to the sides*. While combing has traditionally been considered undesirable, line arrays use combing to work: without combing, there would be no directivity."
> 
> ...



Wow, you guys have sabotaged the hell out of my thread ...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

infiniti23 said:


> Wow, you guys have sabotaged the hell out of my thread ...


:blush: to get back on topic I plugged in the 182 in WinISD. I checked and triple checked the white sheet...:









It looks like you need a minimum of 154 liters. I simulated a 20l box, obviously peaky. To me this looks like an IB driver, I would only use it in the trunk IB, unless you have some enormous doors or they are extremely leaky for IB use. Sealed is most definitely a no go.

This is why I recommend a simulation. I tried to buy some Focal drivers the other day and on the list Focal recommended a 10l box for an In-wall speaker! It's ridiculous. 

Here's where i found the white sheet:
http://www.dynaudio.jp/car/products/SpecSheet/MW182.pdf


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## dkm201 (Nov 29, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> :blush: to get back on topic I plugged in the 182 in WinISD. I checked and triple checked the white sheet...:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not to be broken record guy... but that 10" i posted earlier looks pretty sweet in a .33 cu ft enclosure, especially compared to the graph above...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

dkm201 said:


> Not to be broken record guy... but that 10" i posted earlier looks pretty sweet in a .33 cu ft enclosure, especially compared to the graph above...


I'm with you but I didn't get a single sign that the OP was into it otherwise I would have plotted the thing. I haven't seen a single user switch that fast (or in general) from wanting a Dynaudio product to a TB driver, not that it wouldn't be a step in the right direction at times


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> ummm I don't think you get any of the line array benefits for the frequency band you are working on. Midbass frequenices are so long you would need a heck of a lot more than 4 pieces to get the array benefits. You would also better get them on axis:


I'm not talking about the typical line array benefits (apart from efficiency). Also at those frequencies, an array of those dimensions isn't going to have a huge difference in on/off axis phase/frequency response, at all.


> "A line array is a line of woofers carefully spaced so that *constructive interference occurs on-axis* of the array and *destructive interference (combing) is aimed to the sides*. While combing has traditionally been considered undesirable, line arrays use combing to work: without combing, there would be no directivity."


I am not using the directivity trait of line arrays here,nor am I trying to. The spl coupling will occur anyway, and I will not get any combing. All good things so far.


> "At frequencies below 100 Hz, the drivers in a practical line array will be omni-directional but the array length will be small compared with the sound wavelength, so the system will not conform to line array theory."


And nor do I want it to. This is more like how we will sometimes use 4 8" subs instead of 1 15". It's not like this idea works with tweeters and subs but nothing else 


> U seem to have the devil car to work with. Have you considered pillar mount for most of your gear? You need a high output 3 or 4 to get down to 160hz or so. I would then use a sub crossed high.


I will be putting my aura whispers (3 per side) in the pillars, and my tweeters will go up there too. No where near enough volume for midbass enclosures/baffles up there.

Anyway, point is, I get more efficiency (like you do when you use more subs), and don't have to worry about combing (which means no need for T/A). I will build it and report in a few months (I'm lucky to see one day off a week)

Sorry to hijack your thread infiniti.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> :blush: to get back on topic I plugged in the 182 in WinISD. I checked and triple checked the white sheet...:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe I just don't get it ...

Or the majority, including the techs at Dynaudio, are wrong ...

But many have had success with this driver in the door ...

I built a simple 0.33 cubic foot enclosure for it, layed it in my kick panel area, and take some numbers with a dB meter. I posted that earlier. It didn't perform bad at all ...

So what, the midbass might be peaky in the 120-200 hz range? I have EQ ...

In the spirit of the DIY world, I am building a sealed kick panel enclosure for one to see what it does. I will report the results. It might not work, might sound like total ass. But considering this thread has generated over 100 posts, I bet most are curious to know! If the 182 doesn't work, I'll try the 172's I have currently have mounted in the doors that make my G35 sound like a tin can getting kicked down the street ...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

infiniti23 said:


> 0.33 cubic foot enclosue ...
> 
> Dynaudio MW180, 200 hz baseline ...
> 
> ...


Notice your experiment is actually very close to what it was simulated in too small of a box. Namely from 170hz to 90hz the driver has an output above reference 0db. It's a result of a very tight enclosure, I got very similar results with my kickpanel but for some reason I get 9 db gain over the same frequencies! Naturally the gain goes on to lower frequencies bellow 90hz but the driver roll off masks it. 

The whole point is, you don't want the box to introduce unwanted sound. You want to move from IB to sealed to get rid of this behavior...then why? Unlike sub frequencies these higher notes are actually very annoying it sounds like shouting. 

Many manufacturers underspec the sealed alignment, it helps them sell speakers for more applications/users.I told you Focal did the same to me the other day recommending I use a .7+QTS in-wall raw driver for a 10 liter kickpanel. My simulations align up perfectly with Seas measurements on their white sheets...not everyone cheats.

Honestly they rely on your lack of knowledge, it's rampant in car audio. Now I drew this up for you. I think almost everyone here reccomended IB on average, John Sprinter van has enormous doors for the task to do sealed, he may have cut the door skin etc like thehated mentioned. 

But...you may not know the difference, I don't know how trained of a listener you are. I had dozens of people get in my car and not notice resonance. Then one guy Leon got in my Accord for a split second at Marv's BBQ and refused to listen further...kick resonance. Now I filter 8 inch mids to 220hz HPF to relieve the problem. I wish somebody told me about these problems before glassing my kicks, now I have to rebuild them over the summer. You know what you are getting into and yet you rely on what...post count to make it work?


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Again, maybe I just don't get it ...

But it seems that these peaks can be resolved with EQ, particularly PEQ across that band ...

Many have posted results with drivers in kicks ...

One poster reports great results with a MW152 in a 0.2 cubic foot box. I can get at least 2.5 times that in my kick ....

Some have reported results with kick panels with holes bored out the back. Some with AP vents, variovents ...

Again, isn't the whole DIY spirit trying to find a way to make it work? It would take me 30 minutes to install these drivers in my door ....

I am curious to see how this work out. It wouldn't be the first thing I tried that didn't work, probably won't be the last ...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

infiniti23 said:


> 0.33 cubic foot enclosue ...
> 
> Dynaudio MW180, 200 hz baseline ...
> 
> ...





infiniti23 said:


> Again, maybe I just don't get it ...
> 
> But it seems that these peaks can be resolved with EQ, particularly PEQ across that band ...
> 
> ...


So what? People try to offset road noise with the EQ, that does not make it music. EQ in itself is a band aid it's not particularly fingerprint less on sound quality especially if not used properly. 

If you have the chance to fix some problems though the physical install then why not? Part of the DIY experience is to hit your head against the wall when the build is a failure. Why not give yourself the flexibility to avoid mishaps as you see them come?

If you can, build AP vents in the enclosure right now. Test it over and over until you get rid of that peak before you put it in the door. I know I've tried plenty of techinques and none of them beats getting the right driver for the application. 20l is such a small fraction of 154l, you don't want to rely on small fixes afterwards imo.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

If you put a midbass in to small of an enclosure---you won't eq it out. You may get the RTA to flatten out some, but it will sound very unnatural.

Been there, done that, have the 25 kickpanel enclosures to prove it. Did it with a Dyn 170 also. Horrible results. 


I'll be interested to see how you get a .5 cubic foot enclosure in any kickpanel without cutting metal and going under the car. I could never get bigger than .2 in my F150 that has huge floor area without it looking like a huge cancer down there. it doesn't seem like much until you start adding a real baffle and thick enough sides to not resonante--and get the angle you want---the interior volume starts to disappear in a hurry.


On the 4---4" drivers. I understand the theory. I understand your graphs---I bet you are unhappy when it is done.


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

I used to have the mw160 midbass in a .3 cuft enclosure...which was too small. I thought back then...similar to what infiniti was thinking, that I can eq out any peak with my EQT. Did RTA, and I was flat...yeah right....but did not sound good at all. The midrange sounded very congested. I tried drilling a few holes...it did help abit...but still not right. So I drilled more holes...so many that it was like freeair...hehehe. I guess the resonant frequency in a too small enclosure was too high...that you can not EQ out. You need to treat the enclosure with clay and put a variovent or holes...to bring the resonant frequency down. 

Then I was able to get a mw150...and did it right this time. I put them in a .3 cuft enclosure...made the enclosure very sturdy with Audiolink Damp treated in the interiors of the enclosure...and fabricated an AP vent. Midbass is very punchy, and midrange is very open.

Bottom line is...winISD will not tell you everything.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Ditto to everything in the above 2 posts, especially on getting .3 cubes in the kicks and enclosure resonances not being able to be EQed out.

Be very careful about reading too much into what WinISD predicts. Remember it shows only the lowend simulation in an anechoic space.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Andy Jones said:


> If you put a midbass in to small of an enclosure---you won't eq it out. You may get the RTA to flatten out some, but it will sound very unnatural.
> 
> Been there, done that, have the 25 kickpanel enclosures to prove it. Did it with a Dyn 170 also. Horrible results.
> 
> ...



I am not sure what is not registering here ...

I've tested the 182 in a 0.33 cubic foot enclosure. You've seen the numbers I've posted. I've got a 1.6 dB boost around 120-130 hz. That is an IN-CAR measurement ....

I'm not quite sure how this equates to a huge problem. I'm not +10 dB, not +6 dB ...

+1.6 dB ....

I've got custom black carpet in my G35, and black floor mats. The kick panel enclosure will also be covered in black fabric. It's hardly noticable at all ...

Easy to get 0.5 cubic feet down there. There is roughly 4" gap between the firewall and brake when fully depressed. The enclosure goes up into the firewall and behind the pedal. Amazing how people are quick to discount someone's claims without even seeing what they are doing ...

I've run the Scan 12m in the kick panels firing directly across at one another. Many do this in the G35 with a variety of midrange. I AM NOT using my Dyn drivers for midrange, they are a midbass only. I'm not too awfully concerned about angle. I know this seems to baffle people, but I'm not trying to win a world championship. Considering the Scans did just fine for the entire midrange, I doubt I am going to have problems with the Dyn's even if I fire them straight across ...

But I'm sure everybody is more an expert than I am, because I never thought that 1.6 dB of gain was a huge ordeal that couldn't be worked out of. I guess I am screwed ...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah I'm so certain about putting something behind my brake pedal that could impede it's function.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

But yeah, the people who have actually done this before would be more of an expert on the subject than you seeing as you haven't ever done this before.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I say you build a 5 liter box instead. Try it, who knows it may sound better than everyone's setup. If you want to build it behind the pedals that's fine too, especially behind the brake, it's the least important out of the pedals.


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## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

Just dont cut the panels on that poor car before you know you can make it look great, those panels are a ***** to replace. Should sound good - post pics


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

BlueSQ said:


> Just dont cut the panels on that poor car before you know you can make it look great, those panels are a ***** to replace. Should sound good - post pics


x2, a door panel runs around the same as a dash without accessories.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> But yeah, the people who have actually done this before would be more of an expert on the subject than you seeing as you haven't ever done this before.


First, I am truly beginning to understand why this forum gets the reputation it does in some circles ....

Is my solution a little out there? Yes ...

Is there a significant chance it may not work? Yes ...

Am I am idiot to the point that I would design a box that would "impede" my brake pedal? I guess I'm an idiot ...

Come on now, it's not like I just jumped in this without thinking. I know exactly how far the pedal travels with a person standing on it. It's getting an extra 1.0 inches of clearance after that ...

And what makes YOU or ANYBODY else an expert on anything?

Are you an expert with installs in G35's?

More importantly, are you an expert with installs with 03 and 04 G35's, which were notorious rattle boxes?

Have you installed Dynaudio 170's and 180's in G35's?

Have you built kick panels for G35's?

I didn't think so. This holier than thou attitude is bogus ...

Because I don't want to do things YOUR WAY, you think your's is better than mine. The difference between me and you is when/if this project fails, I'm come and tell you all about it. I doubt you'd do the same in such an instance ....

Fact is, even if I come back and tell you it sounded great, you won't believe it. You'll question if I did what I actually told you I did, or you'll claim my hearing is not in tune, or you'll claim that I am flat out lying ....


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> I say you build a 5 liter box instead. Try it, who knows it may sound better than everyone's setup. If you want to build it behind the pedals that's fine too, especially behind the brake, it's the least important out of the pedals.


As I mentioned, I already built a cheap 9.4 L box for it, and it did just fine, producing the numbers I showed before ....

I'm not going in to this thinking I have the world's solution to midbass. I am trying it because it's fun, and I like building things, and I like trying new things ...

But this thread has surely deflated my attitude. Again, I thought this was a DIY forum ....


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^enjoy your life and your attitude.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeap, you have it all figured out.

And no wonder why this place runs experienced people off. The newbs will all of the answers and attitudes.

If you shut your damned mouth for a minute, you might learn something. 

/out


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Hahaha, those last two posts are halarious ...

What a bunch of losers, I guess you didn't get a big enough trophy for your last "victory". I guess I'll just have to trudge along with my 1.6 dB peak at 130 hz. I wonder how long it will be before my ears start bleeding? I feel like this thread has lowered my IQ about 20 points. Never been involved with such a group of close minded individuals before ...

I never claimed to have anything "figured out". Where did you see me write something like that? I didn't think so ...

Whew. This is a bit much for me, better get back to the real world ...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

congratulations. You singlehandedly changed this thread from "any reason not to run sealed..." to "any reason to tun sealed, any reason at all, I don't need a reason". I feel like any off topic comment in this thread was more useful for somebody because you are obviously not open to suggestions. The last comments are the loosing faith in you type of statements. It happens every so often when people dedicated their time and effort to help you out and you wipe your ass with it. 

I took the time to simulate the thing and then you were told by several different individuals why it's a bad idea. No speaker manufacturer would make the mistakes you are about to make, what makes your idea so great? What is with you? Did you get that Dyn speaker cheap and you heard somewhere that sealed is "SQ"? You know when this is over and done you will have discuss how good your speaker sounds and rely on the Dynaudio name because anybody that experiences it will think otherwise.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

The owner is about to learn that output measurements (with an SPL meter or with an RTA) does not equal sound. Especially in the midbass range. 

But hey he is only 1.6dbs up at 130hz---that ***** is going to be angels singing.


There are a bunch of MECA shows in Alabama. Bring it out, let others hear it. Prove me wrong.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> congratulations. You singlehandedly changed this thread from "any reason not to run sealed..." to "any reason to tun sealed, any reason at all, I don't need a reason". I feel like any off topic comment in this thread was more useful for somebody because you are obviously not open to suggestions. The last comments are the loosing faith in you type of statements. It happens every so often when people dedicated their time and effort to help you out and you wipe your ass with it.
> 
> I took the time to simulate the thing and then you were told by several different individuals why it's a bad idea. No speaker manufacturer would make the mistakes you are about to make, what makes your idea so great? What is with you? Did you get that Dyn speaker cheap and you heard somewhere that sealed is "SQ"? You know when this is over and done you will have discuss how good your speaker sounds and rely on the Dynaudio name because anybody that experiences it will think otherwise.



This from the person telling me the Dyn 182 needs to be in a 5.4 cubic foot box to perform properly ....

You guys are great, really. I've never seen such an arrogant bunch ...

How do you think ANYTHING that was a breakthrough EVER happened? By trying things outside the box, no pun intended ...

At this point I am just going to assume that some of you are just stupid, because from the first minute, I never said I wanted to win competitions, or have a world beater system. I am trying to make something servicable that doesn't cause my doors to sound like tin cans ....

THIS MAY NOT WORK! I've acknowledged that. If I doesn't, I'll probably suck it up and go back to IB ...

However, I am willing to take a chance and try to do something different, BECAUSE IT IS FUN ...

How many times do I have to mention that I tried this in a 0.33 cubic foot box and it sounded OK with no EQ. There is going to be a bigger box, and I'll see how I can work it ...

I've been doing this on and off for 15 years, I'm not just jumping into it blindly ...

So take all your simulations and shove em up your ass for all I care. Because fact is, I've already run them, I know what I am getting into. It's better for me to do it and experience then to have you tell me WHAT to do, or to tell me I am stupid ...


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

Infinity, relax dude....you asked is there any reason not to run sealed, and you received alot of feedback. I understand your position about trying something different, but I have to side with Andy and hatedguy in that corner. These guys have tried alot of things to get good sound from a variety of speakers in different locations. To suggest they have not tried things is just not true. Do what you are gonna do and let us know how it sounds.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

I find it amusing that the company itself, Dynaudio, is showing a model for the MW182 in a 25L SEALED box on their website, and clearly indicate that the driver is designed for sealed and ported boxes, not a single mention of IB ....

This CONFIRMED by the folks at Dynaudio via telephone ...


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

If you knew it would work. Knew it would sound good---why start a thread? Were you just looking for people to tell you how great of a person you were and that you were a car audio God. Or did you feel you were such a great individual taht you would start a post so that others could learn from your great 15 years of experience?


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Andy Jones said:


> If you knew it would work. Knew it would sound good---why start a thread? Were you just looking for people to tell you how great of a person you were and that you were a car audio God. Or did you feel you were such a great individual taht you would start a post so that others could learn from your great 15 years of experience?


Again, seems your skull density might be the problem here ...

If you read the title, notice the last word - CONSIDERING. CONSIDERING the information I provided, why not. Despite the fact that all this info is being discounted ...

My OP indicates that I have unsolvable door resonance problems, and issue with the cone excursion hitting the door. Basically, I cannot use the driver to it's full capability in the door ...

I provide actual testing evidence that the driver does ok in a sealed box, a sealed box that was slapped together quickly with a hot glue gun, yet, everybody seems to ignore it ...

"Sealed won't work, I've done in my car (that is not a G35)"

"I modeled the driver (in open space) and it needs a 154 L box to work"

"I get 9 dB of boost when I used driver X in a sealed box"

"I know I've never used that driver in your car in that enclosure, but it won't work because I said so"

"You need to get you 500 hz down driver on axis or it'll sound like ****"


Most are completely discounting the evidence that I have mounted to show that it is OK ...

1.6 dB of boost at 130 is less than I've gotten with drivers mounted in the door IB at times. I don't know why it's working out this way, but it is. I expected more ...

Dynaudio acknowledges that it should be OK. Why would they tell me so if it wasn't? I already own the driver, they know that, I told them of my experiences with it IB. Are they just lying to me? I suppose that most of you know more about the Dyn drivers than Dyn themselves ...


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## pontiacbird (Dec 29, 2006)

This thread is a complete waste of time....

all this bullsh!tting, and no build pictures  but seriously.....


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## M-Dub (Nov 29, 2006)

:lurk:


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

"considering" means you have an open mind to what people are suggesting. You don't. You think you are a car audio genius. You've measured the box. You know. So what is there to consider?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

He didn't measure it in the final location...nor did he measure the output of both drivers installed in the car.

So you have 15 years on and off. Great. I started messing with car audio roughly 18 years ago and did it professionally for about 5 years. Have been competing and judging for the last 8 years. 

While George and I don't always see eye-to-eye on stuff, he pretty much summed your attitude up.

You have a lot of people with a lot of hands on experience trying to help you out here, but you are acting like a baby. I'm sure Dyn is right, that speaker would work great in that size, but finding that much space int he front of a car is really really hard to do.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

infiniti23 said:


> This from the person telling me the Dyn 182 needs to be in a 5.4 cubic foot box to perform properly ....
> 
> You guys are great, really. I've never seen such an arrogant bunch ...
> 
> ...


Do you know what 3db means in terms of output?

How do YOU think anything breakthrough ever happened? Classic experiment: I hold a book above the floor, I let go, if falls on the ground. How many times do you think we should repeat the experiment to verify the results? What, do you think the book will miraculously fail to fall on the floor and catch on fire instead? 

Let's get a few things straight, we don't know for sure if your experiment is scientifically sound, how did you control other variables? 

Assuming what you tested was properly done it is a fact that you don't know how to interpret the results. 

Therefore how can you make any useful conclusions? 

It's a thought experiment, go though it. The only thing we know for sure is that you have some character deficiencies: at the very least you are stu***** (stubborn 

Thermodynamic studies will not be advanced by a self-misguided individual playing with matches in a barn, neither will you advance the field of acoustical engineering with your little experiment.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Andy Jones said:


> ^enjoy your life and your attitude.


Hahahahaha :laugh:


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^there's a difference between having a bad attitude and knowing what you are talking about. I realize this forum hates when people actually wants to "hear" a vehicle and doesn't want to deal with theory--but I'm kind of a stickler for listening to music--not looking at it in graphs. 

I have an altima. He has a g35. Look at those two cars. Notice anything?
I did when I was chosing between the two to buy one.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Cliffs notes:

infiniti23: "I'm planning doing this. Can anyone tell me what's wrong with this situation?"

Andy and winslow: "Yeah, your idea won't work too well."

infiniti23: "Why not? Dyn says I can do it."

Andy and winslow: "It's harder than it looks, we speak from experience."

infiniti23: "I know how hard it will be, but I'm going to do it this way."

Andy and winslow: "Wouldn't advise it, but try it and see, stubborn guy!"

infiniti23: "**** you, I'm going to try it and see!"

Andy and winslow: "**** you too, try it and see!"

infiniti23: "Fine, I will!"

Andy and winslow: "Fine, go ahead!"

infiniti23: "Alright then, here I go!"

Andy and winslow: "Alright then, go ahead!"


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## M-Dub (Nov 29, 2006)

LOL! Classic :laugh:


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Andy Jones said:


> ^there's a difference between having a bad attitude and knowing what you are talking about.


kinda like the difference between cucumbers and yachting


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Andy Jones said:


> ^there's a difference between having a bad attitude and knowing what you are talking about. I realize this forum hates when people actually wants to "hear" a vehicle and doesn't want to deal with theory--but I'm kind of a stickler for listening to music--not looking at it in graphs.
> 
> *I have an altima. He has a g35. Look at those two cars. Notice anything?
> I did when I was chosing between the two to buy one.*


Doors that sag easily?


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

Andy Jones said:


> The owner is about to learn that output measurements (with an SPL meter or with an RTA) does not equal sound. Especially in the midbass range.


I don't know where to start after so much mudslinging on this thread. I don't have experience with a G35, but I have tried midbass in both doors in an Acura TSX (IB and sealed and ported enclosures) as well as kicks (sealed enclosure), so this is just based on what I have encountered.

I agree with Andy's quote above. Just because it looks good at 1/3 octave measurement points does not mean there won't be sharp resonances at other frequencies. These resonances are especially problematic in the midbass range when enclosures are too small or not very well deadened. Large, solid enclosures = a lot of weight. The fiberglass buzzword does not mean featherweight. Looking at the OP's output readings, a 1.6dB gain is not terrible...it could be a lot worse. As others have mentioned, trying to EQ out a major response problem causes unnatural or congested midbass sound. I currently have ID OEM 6.5" midbass in sealed kickpanels around 0.2 cubes each and have this peak & compression issue, even after EQ'ing to taste. I tried them IB in the doors and was also not happy. Then I tried an old 8" Kicker "freeair" sub in the door with the basket facing inside the car (don't want to cut metal just yet), and to my ears it sounded like I was getting bass guitar sound that was airy and effortless, not compressed. I was hearing some low fundamental tones I wasn't hearing from the ID's in sealed enclosures. Everyone's ear is different, just try more than one approach and pick the one you think sounds best, without "altering" your car if possible, until a final decision is made. I made this mistake (with my plastic door panels) and it will likely be a costly one.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

jsun_g said:


> I I made this mistake (with my plastic door panels) and it will likely be a costly one.


If you have a 2004 TSX, you needed newer door panels anyway... they switched from hat welds to screws holding the pockets on in 2005 or 2006...


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

VP Electricity said:


> If you have a 2004 TSX, you needed newer door panels anyway... they switched from hat welds to screws holding the pockets on in 2005 or 2006...



Yep, it's an 04. I'll have to explore that option when it comes time to trade in/sell, if I don't drive the car into the ground. So long as the newer model panels are the same style/finish as the old ones...


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## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

There's nothing worse then someone who asks for help then ****s all over the advice they get. If you don't like the responses then shut the **** up and leave. 

I'm sure Dyn will hold your dick all the way through the installation process.


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

COME ON guys, do you forget what we're really doing when we put together a front stage? We're designing a loudspeaker, essentially.

"Whether is sounds good" posturing is always the very last step of speaker design. How many good loudspeaker designers don't use any numbers, graphs etc. before putting them together? Sure, it has to sound good, but it's not "try a million things and see if one sounds good". Numbers have a way of eliminating a bunch of possibilities that youcan know for sure will not perform before hearing it.

"no one has ever done it" doesn't equate to "it probably won't sound good" either. That sort of thinking is what keeps car audio from reaching its full potential. That and the blatant disregard for basic physics that over 90% of "SQ" people tend to exhibit in car audio.

I like the cliff notes section. Let's do a cliff notes section of the last 30 odd years of car audio:

Smart person: Stereo won't work in a car. It can't. Don't try it

Car audio nut: Yes it will, I'm doining it anyway.

Smart person: No, it really won't. At best you'll get panned mono, with a soundstage a fraction of a fraction wider than the a pillars.

Car audio nut: Shut up, I have the best soundstage ever with my STEREO setup.

Smart person: You really don't. You also make things worse by having it in stereo since the natural reverb in any recording is dwarfed by the reflections in your car. Trying to use 2 channels to reproduce stereo is going to further damage your sound quality.

Car audio nut: I've won a trophy.

Smart person: So?

Car audio nut: And so have all my friends who have done things the exact same way as me.

Smart person: Bah, **** it. You will just never get it

Car audio nut: blah blah blah blah experience blah blah trophies blah blah judge said it was the best blah blah physics don't apply in a car blah blah


Was intended as tongue in cheek (as I am a car audio nut too), but you get the picture. We are not really (on average) as intelligent as acoustic engineers, or good loudspeaker designers.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I guess the "smart" person sounds like abmolech...panned mono. Whatever.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

br85 said:


> COME ON guys, do you forget what we're really doing when we put together a front stage? We're designing a loudspeaker, essentially.
> 
> "Whether is sounds good" posturing is always the very last step of speaker design. How many good loudspeaker designers don't use any numbers, graphs etc. before putting them together? Sure, it has to sound good, but it's not "try a million things and see if one sounds good". Numbers have a way of eliminating a bunch of possibilities that youcan know for sure will not perform before hearing it.
> 
> ...


Dito on everything. I do think you need a mono source that hasn't been altered in a stereo format.


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

Abmolech certainly had the strongest voice when it came to "car STEREO" being an entirely farcical concept. Even though we care very little, he was right, and if we all could be bothered with carPC's and had the money for them (being DIYer's often means we're cheap though) there might be a few more people running mono/ambiophonic/etc. in their cars.

He was not entirely alone in slamming his head against a brick wall when trying to coax people into coming up with acoustic solutions for acoustic problems. There were others too, but as usual, their voices have been all but drowned out by mob mentality. Thinking outside the box (or in this thread, thinking INSIDE the box when everybody else is thinking outside of it ) is a lose-lose situation. If you do, people laugh at you for not doing it the same as everybody else does it. If you don't,the best you can hope to achieve in car audio is something that has already been done multiple times. :disappointed:


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

you're just saying that because I'm getting a carputer built soon


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> you're just saying that because I'm getting a carputer built soon


I didn't actually know that, but now I'm jealous!!! Tell us how it goes (I want to attempt one someday, but I fear it's one of those projects that I'll never get finished)


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## johnmasters (Mar 30, 2009)

It sure is nice to have to sort through 7 pages of mostly childish bull **** not to even find the answer to my question about sealed door pods.


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## NoelSibs (Jun 21, 2010)

@ John Masters... I know exactly how you feel there!!! At least it was a bit entertaining!!! Hehehe


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

actually, this thread has some really good info in it. After having time to deal with my kicks a lot lately, I wish I had this knowledge up front. 

With an open mind, I've re-read this entire thread and agree wholeheartedly with Andy when he says an RTA won't relate to sound as well as you would hope, especially with midbasses. 
Kicks are a wonderful things, but I've learned (and still am) that they require a whole lot more work than just tossing an enclosure in the floor. Given that and the choice of mounting a speaker to a door... I'd say the easiest/fastest route for decent results is the doors. 

/digging up 1week... errr.... 1 year old thread.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

ErinH said:


> actually, this thread has some really good info in it. After having time to deal with my kicks a lot lately, I wish I had this knowledge up front.
> 
> With an open mind, I've re-read this entire thread and agree wholeheartedly with Andy when he says an RTA won't relate to sound as well as you would hope, especially with midbasses.
> Kicks are a wonderful things, but I've learned (and still am) that they require a whole lot more work than just tossing an enclosure in the floor. Given that and the choice of mounting a speaker to a door... I'd say the easiest/fastest route for decent results is the doors.
> ...


So 7 years later. Whats are the thoughts?


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## Marky (Nov 15, 2011)

Jscoyne2 said:


> So 7 years later. Whats are the thoughts?


Put them in the damn doors after properly soundproofing them......and don't go cheap. 

Or buy a iPod and some Beats and say the hell with a stereo


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## Izay123 (Jun 9, 2009)

Jscoyne2 said:


> So 7 years later. Whats are the thoughts?




It Fu{#king WORKS. 

Jason--You saw the mounting first hand lol . The door vibrated more before the Pod went in! 

(You may be flabbergasted by the rattles it ELIMINATED! (In addition to having better midbass capability than any so-called "midbass" I've ever heard in a vehicle












AFIK, I may be the very first or one of very few to successfully use this technique with a fullsize sub & succeed like this!..... 



If I am , I hereby name the technique " Big Zay Front-Row Bass".


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