# JL Audio from unauthorized online retailers?



## skulboep (Nov 29, 2009)

I am looking into picking up a JL Audio 12" W3v3 sub and SlashV2 500/1 amplifier but simply don't have the funds to pay full retail for these items ($760!!!). While I am aware that buying gear from unauthorized retailers voids all warrantees, I have yet to have any piece of car audio equipment purchased on such sites fail on me. 

While I have bought audio gear from unauthorized resellers online, I've never bought any of the "ultra-premium" names such as JL, Focal, etc. online. 

I've heard horror stories from people buying these higher-end labels who have received products with defaced/scratched-off serial numbers or even fakes. I have felt relatively safe buying "less-premium" names like Alpine and Pioneer online from unauthorized retailers but am scared of making my big JL purchase only to receive defaced or fake products.

So I ask all of you, do you have any experience buying JL products from unauthorized online retailers such as SonicElectronix, Woofers.etc, etc? I have read numerous threads on such sites, specifically Woofers.etc, but am looking for specific experiences dealing with JL Audio purchases from these sites, particularly their amps and subs. 

Thank you in advance for your help!

Erik


----------



## bfowler (Nov 25, 2009)

why are you so set on those items? i quick run through the classifides on here will net you some better gear for less money....

but to answer your question.

you probably wont find any. JL is FIERCE about keeping their gear out of stores like that. they actually have a team that buys gear they do find back and shuts those dealers out from buying from jl again (they record serial numbers)

gray market dealers like that are pretty detrimental to brick&mortar stores. (dealers can't make money on a product that you can buy for 5% above dealer cost) so JL keeps their dealers in business by keeping their gear of gray market sites.

hope you find a good deal. but its pretty hard to find jl gear for the kind of savings you get on other brands on sites like sonic


*edit* just did a quick search (since i know pg gear and they DO whore their gear out to online sellers i used this gear as an examplie, but their are tons of just as good options out there)

PG rsdc12d4 (destroys the jlw3 in EVERY way, accuracy, sensitivity, low end extension, total output)
http://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-RSDC1..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0K6S883HQSM68T2VC78Y

and fourthmeal is selling a pg rsd1200.1 for $180

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ck-pioneer-klipsch-celestion-treo-xovers.html

that puts you with better gear (albeit the rsd is a much physically larger amp) for less then 1/2 of the retail of the jl gear


----------



## don_chuwish (Oct 29, 2009)

Agree with bfowler, I'd rather buy used from a trusted seller than new from unauthorized web merchants. If you're really set on the JL there's always someone selling used on eBay. Just take your time to find items in good shape with plenty of good photos in the listing.

- D


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Not that agree with this.... At any purchase regardless on store, online store, from forum members do have grey area. There's no absolute right or wrong. If were really to put the blame, the manufacturer is to be blamed. Because is they that created grey market. Such manufacturer always blame the grey market but do they put any stop on this? I never, instead, they jack up the price futhermore on their authorized shops.


----------



## sniper5431 (Dec 8, 2009)

I bought my Focals from Sonic and very happy with them. If they are not the real deal, they are so close they are the best sounding fakes I ever heard. I would pay same price again.


----------



## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

The shop I work at frequently matches or beats Sonicelectronix. I see all these threads about how expensive JL is and everyone is always comparing MSRP. NOBODY pays MSRP, for anything, anywhere...why would you pay full boat for this? 

Of course it helps when the company you work for is probably the biggest JL dealer in the state and pays cash 

Jay


----------



## jimbno1 (Apr 14, 2008)

Really? Show me the used HD 600/4s on ebay. No authorized JL dealer I have talked to comes close to matching the prices off the internet. I am talking like $200 bucks difference. If you know of any JL retailers in the Chicago area that will sell me a HD 600/4 for $470 tax included please let me know.


----------



## ISTundra (Jan 3, 2009)

I've bought JL from Sonicelectronix and ebay and never had a problem. Yes, the serial numbers were removed, but I'm certain these were not fakes or B-stock gear. In fact, the Stealthbox I bought off ebay came NIB from an authorized JL dealer in the southeast. Off ebay you can even get a square trade warranty to cover your stuff if a warranty is really important to you.


----------



## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

i bought a 900/5 not too long ago. output was dead. I was lucky I bought it from an authorized dealer. Took it right back. I wouldnt risk it..buy local and from your local dealers. Just look at it like buying a car..haggle prices till you get where you need to go. i got mine for a lil over 700...right at woofersetc pricing. and it wasnt opened, serial numbers werent shaved off the boards..and when it was dead, i took it right back, and got another one  Didnt have to send anything back and wait. and you have a few dealers on here that are authorized that can give u a great price.


----------



## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

jimbno1 said:


> Really? Show me the used HD 600/4s on ebay. No authorized JL dealer I have talked to comes close to matching the prices off the internet. I am talking like $200 bucks difference. If you know of any JL retailers in the Chicago area that will sell me a HD 600/4 for $470 tax included please let me know.


The cheapest I saw on eBay was $487.xx...We've done 750/1's for under $500. Not too many takers on the 600/4, yet. Nobody wastes money trying to make their "words" louder.  

I'd pay more to be able to walk in to said authorized dealer and get my amp swapped under warranty on the spot. Not having to take it out, send it back to the website you bought it from (at your expense), wait for them to decide if they'll fix it or replace it, and send it back to you (also, I bet, at your expense.)

So many people just assume it's cheaper to buy online. It's funny when customers come in and want to get (for example) a Pioneer AVIC-Z110 installed. When we ask how much they paid, they're usually like "$1059" or "$1100" We sell it cheaper than that anyway, and it has a $200 rebate if purchased from an authorized dealer. Plus if you didn't buy it from us, you get to pay install too.

Jay


----------



## jimbno1 (Apr 14, 2008)

I am not sure what "Nobody wastes money trying to make their "words" louder." means. Can you explain? 

And I can explain why you aren't selling any HD 600/4's. It is probably because you want $750 for them. 

I agree it is noce to have a warranty, but I buy used all the time which doesn't have any warranty. So what is the difference? If there is a 30% price difference buying on the internet with at least a retailers warranty, I am willing to take some chances. Hell $200 gets you a nice set of midbasses 

Does your shop install everything bought for free? If so what does it include? Hell I can screw an amp down to the trunk pretty easily. Are you implying you would build a mounting board, install the mounting board behind the rear seats in my truck, run the power, RCA, Speaker cables, hook up the speakers all for free? 

To each his own. But retailers have to realize thay are competing with the internet dealers on all products. Not just car audio. It is a fact of life.


----------



## HertzGuy (Jan 23, 2010)

DO NOT buy from dealercostcaraudio.com
they will jack your money and not ship you products, or "ship" you the wrong product (tweeters for subwoofers) say they sent you the right stuff and won't refund your money, OR "send" you your order, but not actually ship anything, then when you want a refund you must reproduce the product they "sent" you, but how do you do that when they didn't send you anything to begin with.
DO NOT BUY from dealercostcaraudio.com


----------



## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

jimbno1 said:


> I am not sure what "Nobody wastes money trying to make their "words" louder." means. Can you explain?
> 
> And I can explain why you aren't selling any HD 600/4's. It is probably because you want $750 for them.
> 
> ...


I am not sure what "Nobody wastes money trying to make their "words" louder." means. Can you explain? 

what he meant is most people are bass heads and would rather put their money on bass than a front stage.

And I can explain why you aren't selling any HD 600/4's. It is probably because you want $750 for them. 


I agree it is noce to have a warranty, but I buy used all the time which doesn't have any warranty. So what is the difference? If there is a 30% price difference buying on the internet with at least a retailers warranty, I am willing to take some chances. Hell $200 gets you a nice set of midbasses 

ya, if your buying used. which alot of us do. and to me, if new id rather pay the extra money to see who im dealing with..which isnt THAT much more money if you can bargain them down. my 900/5 not too long ago was only a few bucks more and i was able to shake the guys hand the first time I bought it, and then the second time when i had to return it when it was warrantied on the spot. 

Does your shop install everything bought for free? If so what does it include? Hell I can screw an amp down to the trunk pretty easily. Are you implying you would build a mounting board, install the mounting board behind the rear seats in my truck, run the power, RCA, Speaker cables, hook up the speakers all for free? 

I agree, with that..this is a DIY forum. most people on here know how to do that. On a personal note, i was able to get really high end speakers, installed, doors deadened, kick panels made for around the same price woofersetc was charging just for the speakers alone..and now hes a friend of mine that helps me with car audio all the time. his knowledge far exceeds mine and whatever premium i pay now and in the future is worth the hours of car audio talks/emails weve had in the past. and i consider him a friend of mine now. 

To each his own. But retailers have to realize thay are competing with the internet dealers on all products. Not just car audio. It is a fact of life.

ya, its like buying a car. there is competition out there. I just feel its better to support your local economy, dealer, and most importantly buy things from people that are suppose to be selling them, rather than buy it from people that arent suppose to be selling the product. unless of course its used and from this forum. most people here are very legit  if local dealers are charging 200-300 or whatever more and you arent happy with the price, its within your right to find someone else..or go to another car dealer. I use internet pricing as a haggling tool with whatever I buy to get as close as i can to that price. the extra money ive spent over the years over that internet price has resulted in good friends, good connections, and probably better pricing over the years when i returned for new products whatever it is


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

When an amp is selling for $400 off Ebay stores(retail stores selling for $600), the seller may have the stocks for $200. Have to know that, when a product is bought in bulk, they will have discounts. And will we have 100% defectless products from each companies? Nope, this is what I can say. Some Ebay stores do have good technical skills to repair the amp, so they dare to buy in bulk without warranty. Manufacturer normally won't change the failed parts, they change the whole circuit board which cost more instead. 
That's another reason why the serial number is "missing". 
And when business in retail shops drops, they starts to complaint. When there's complaint, manufacturer have to do something. The best excuss is always "there's fake around, is better you to buy from retail shops". Do we have a fake JL amps now? I don't find any. But I do find alot of "under water" JL amps.


----------



## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

If they are buying in bulk though where are they buying it from if they aren't getting it from jl themselves. If they are buying so many u gotta figure jl would let them give put warranties no? I think they are bought broken or refurbed or b stock somewhere, but I dunno.


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

That's the grey area........ Certain time manufacturer don't care much, as long as their product is sold.


----------



## ss1088 (Apr 24, 2008)

I have been buying premium products including PPI, McIntosh, Focal and JL online with no problems.


----------



## HertzGuy (Jan 23, 2010)

^ site plug??


----------



## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

jimbno1 said:


> I am not sure what "Nobody wastes money trying to make their "words" louder." means. Can you explain?


It's kind of a joke. Very few people want to spend money on 4 channels, all they want is lots of bass. We do a few big systems at my location, but most of the others go to some of the other stores. We are the smallest store (2 bays, currently 1 installer), so we get alot of basic stuff. In our area, it's like pulling teeth to get people to spend money...It's hard to step some people out of Jensen radios...



jimbno1 said:


> And I can explain why you aren't selling any HD 600/4's. It is probably because you want $750 for them.


Where did I say that? We've probably sold 2 or 3 since they came out (at our location) and they went for way less than that.




jimbno1 said:


> I agree it is noce to have a warranty, but I buy used all the time which doesn't have any warranty. So what is the difference? If there is a 30% price difference buying on the internet with at least a retailers warranty, I am willing to take some chances. Hell $200 gets you a nice set of midbasses


It's not alot different than buying used. Except that buying a used piece, no one in their right mind would pay much more than half what it would be new. If a HD 600/4 was $600, I wouldn't spend more than $300-400 used...especially from someone I don't know on the internet. In our area Car Audio doesn't hold it's value once it's been opened or used.



jimbno1 said:


> Does your shop install everything bought for free? If so what does it include? Hell I can screw an amp down to the trunk pretty easily. Are you implying you would build a mounting board, install the mounting board behind the rear seats in my truck, run the power, RCA, Speaker cables, hook up the speakers all for free?


No, I never implied any such thing. If someone were to buy a $1200 radio, I might put *that* in for free, but not amps, speakers, subs, etc. 
In comparison, your statement eludes that if you buy online used or from an unauthorized dealer, that they will install your stuff for free. You're not comparing apples to apples. Either way you will still have to buy all your wiring, rca's and stuff...and the kits that most places include for free are not of similar quality to what we sell, there's a reason they're free.

Ever heard the term "You get what you pay for, and pay for what you get?"



jimbno1 said:


> To each his own. But retailers have to realize thay are competing with the internet dealers on all products. Not just car audio. It is a fact of life.


That may be. But when your local install shop is gone and you have to buy EVERYTHING (wire, ring connectors, etc, for that last minute project in order to have your car back together before work) online, maybe then people will see the point. 

Your local shop too expensive? Find a better shop. You pay a premium for things like service, convenience, advice, etc. And it's not usually a significant difference, most people just assume the internet is cheaper, and don't bother to come into the store. Or they call, get quoted MSRP, and don't bother to come in and haggle...*that's* how you get better pricing.
We're only allowed to quote current sales prices and MSRP over the phone, but we don't actually sell anything for that...go in to the shop. Talk to the guys there, if you're not a douchebag, they'll probably work with you.

Come in with an attitude, and they won't. Guaranteed.

Jay


----------



## jimbno1 (Apr 14, 2008)

This was the statement that implied that installation was free. 

'So many people just assume it's cheaper to buy online. ....Plus if you didn't buy it from us, you get to pay install too."


I guess I misunderstood the intent. If you pay install either why mention it? It is not an advantage either way.

I would love to deal with my local dealers/installers. I have gone to the shop of one and he recommended a certain midbass that will remain nameless. I asked if he would negotiate down off the MSRP of $500. He said he could knock off $25-$30 bucks. Well I had to pass on that bargain. I guess I must be a douchebag.

I will still hope to use him for my install but with my crappy used equipment I bought off here or ebay. Like JBL 2118H midbass, PRS 4 mids, Rainbow Cal-28 tweeters, ESX Q and JL HD amps, Pioneer P9 Combo . You know worthless junk that was not purchased authorized and does not have a warranty. And I believe I paid more for the JBLs that MSRP, I know I did for some Peerless XLS 8's. But with all that I still paid way less than one set of the recommended "nameless" midbasses for both sets. 

Really I would love to hand it over to a professional. The mark up on equipment especially wire and cables which is almost criminal. And the $80 per hour for labor seems excessive too. That rate is over $100K on a yearly basis. I know installers do not have full 40 hr weeks booked all the time. But why is that my fault. So I pay to make up for fact that the shop is not fully booked? How about $50 bucks an hour instead? 

We all want the to have quality goods and services at reasonable prices. I would really prefer to deal with my local merchants. But I will not pay a HUGE premium to do so. I want my installer to make money. But there is a limit.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Other than Jay, does ANYONE know what gray market goods are? I keep seeing people talk about it, like kyheng for instance, but obviously have no clue what they are. Gray market goods, also called trans-shipped goods, are items sold to a legitimate dealer who, for one reason or another, sells them to eBay dealers and unauthorized online dealers. The serial numbers are removed *by the original dealer*, NOT the manufacturer, so that they can't be traced back to them because they'd have their account closed and lose that line. 

The shops that trans ship are the worst in my book. The market already blows and they're making it worse on themselvesby feeding the very animal that's threatening to shut them down. 

But not to stray too far off topic, I'd buy good used gear before I bought unauthorized gear.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

jimbno1 said:


> snip PRS 4 mids, snip



Wait, you have some PRS 4s!!!


----------



## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

no one ever said "buying crappy used equipment". It sounds like you have very high end stuff. used is fine, there really is no negotiating with that anyway. I buy used here and there, and while im not positive the equip is 100% its a risk im willing to take with certain equipment like many of us. If a shop is only willing to go down 25-50 bucks of msrp and charge 80 for labor, go somewhere else, thats your right as a consumer. and sounds like you have with your choice of using the internet. ive never paid retail for anything. not my house, not my car, not my car audio, plasmas flat screens, etc. i think the only thing i paid retail for is my iphone. Shops that are trying to get MSRP are doing what they are suppose to do, get as much money for their business as possible, survive in this effed up economy where basically everything is outsourced or sold outside the US now.


----------



## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

quality_sound said:


> Other than Jay, does ANYONE know what gray market goods are? I keep seeing people talk about it, like kyheng for instance, but obviously have no clue what they are. Gray market goods, also called trans-shipped goods, are items sold to a legitimate dealer who, for one reason or another, sells them to eBay dealers and unauthorized online dealers. The serial numbers are removed *by the original dealer*, NOT the manufacturer, so that they can't be traced back to them because they'd have their account closed and lose that line.
> 
> The shops that trans ship are the worst in my book. The market already blows and they're making it worse on themselvesby feeding the very animal that's threatening to shut them down.
> 
> But not to stray too far off topic, I'd buy good used gear before I bought unauthorized gear.


hey quality sounds..everytime i log on, i see your damn avatar and get a chubby in my office. thanks for making my 8 hrs easier haha


----------



## ss1088 (Apr 24, 2008)

Another thing to consider is that most of us install the equipment ourselves. If you do this the warranty is pretty much useless anyway. You may get a 1 year warranty from an authorized dealer if you pay them even more to do a lack luster install, but if you do it yourself the waranty is then usually limited to 30-90 days which is pretty much worthless.


----------



## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

good point. In the past ive been lucky, for the most part nothing happened and if it did after the warranty date, most of my retailers took care of it for me anyway.


----------



## ISTundra (Jan 3, 2009)

quality_sound said:


> Other than Jay, does ANYONE know what gray market goods are? I keep seeing people talk about it, like kyheng for instance, but obviously have no clue what they are. Gray market goods, also called trans-shipped goods, are items sold to a legitimate dealer who, for one reason or another, sells them to eBay dealers and unauthorized online dealers. The serial numbers are removed *by the original dealer*, NOT the manufacturer, so that they can't be traced back to them because they'd have their account closed and lose that line.
> 
> The shops that trans ship are the worst in my book. The market already blows and they're making it worse on themselvesby feeding the very animal that's threatening to shut them down.
> 
> But not to stray too far off topic, I'd buy good used gear before I bought unauthorized gear.


Yeah I think most people know what gray market means, and I mentioned gray market in an earlier post when I meant to say B-stock (since edited), but the point is, gray market doesn't necessarily mean fake/b-stock/refurb/inferior in some way, as manufacturers try to portray it. That's just their feeble attempt to show that they are supporting their authorized dealers who are required to sell at MAP or better.


----------



## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

well I wouldnt use the word feeble. I just think manufacturers cannot say for sure that it is 100% in working order, fake, refurbed, etc if it doesnt come from them.


----------



## m3gunner (Aug 6, 2008)

jimbno1 said:


> Really? Show me the used HD 600/4s on ebay. No authorized JL dealer I have talked to comes close to matching the prices off the internet. I am talking like $200 bucks difference. If you know of any JL retailers in the Chicago area that will sell me a HD 600/4 for $470 tax included please let me know.


I'll sell you a very slightly used HD600/4 shipped for $450, if you'd like.

Seriously...


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

quality_sound : Well, I sent my JL amp(A6450) for checking when I was hit by noise issues that appears to be not the amp itself. Instead, it is because I got a very high resistance on power supply. My repairer had a "wow" on the circuit design. It is complicated and no way a MIC can duplicate it unlike some D*S amps that really have fake. So will JL amps be fake? I don't think so. 
As most of us are DIYer, warranty is means nothing basicly, as long as it can be powered up and output have sound.

Like some people are saying, when you pointing a finger to blame others, you have 4 fingers pointing at you back.


----------



## jimbno1 (Apr 14, 2008)

Off Topic but since you asked. 

Yes I have PRS 4's. I listened very briefly with out an enclosure. But I just finished putting them in 4" PVC (cheap sleazy, lazy) enclosures. Well almost done I still need to put non hardening modeling clay on the end caps to damen them. Along with Alpine F1 4's (Scan 12M) and Peerless Exclusive 4' 830881. I need to mount them to a board to keep them from rolling around. I also am doing PVC mounts for the Cal 28s, Illuminator D3004/6020-00, and Alpine F1 RR (Scan 70000).

I be gonna have me my own little speaker shootout in my basement. You Betchya. I will post a review of my listening impressions, but I really don't have any test equipment to do a decent comparison. I did order a speaker selector with volume control which has 2 amp inputs and 6 independantly assignable speaker pair outputs. I hope to be able to switch between them at the touch of a button after level matching them with ratshak meter. 

If you are in Europe you shoule be able to get your hands on some PRS 4s. Although it looks like Pioneer has replaced them with a 2.5 which looks interesting.

Jim


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

kyheng said:


> quality_sound : Well, I sent my JL amp(A6450) for checking when I was hit by noise issues that appears to be not the amp itself. Instead, it is because I got a very high resistance on power supply. My repairer had a "wow" on the circuit design. It is complicated and no way a MIC can duplicate it unlike some D*S amps that really have fake. So will JL amps be fake? I don't think so.
> As most of us are DIYer, warranty is means nothing basicly, as long as it can be powered up and output have sound.
> 
> Like some people are saying, when you pointing a finger to blame others, you have 4 fingers pointing at you back.


What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about fakes. I said gray market.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

ISTundra said:


> Yeah I think most people know what gray market means, and I mentioned gray market in an earlier post when I meant to say B-stock (since edited), but the point is, gray market doesn't necessarily mean fake/b-stock/refurb/inferior in some way, as manufacturers try to portray it. That's just their feeble attempt to show that they are supporting their authorized dealers who are required to sell at MAP or better.


I never said gray market WAS b-stock. I know the old SoundStream used to sell b-stock stuff all the time. We sold a **** ton of it. The difference was that b-stock still had a warranty, albeit shorter, but it was still factory backed. Nowadays b-stock just gets dumped to the nearest wholesaler.


----------



## ISTundra (Jan 3, 2009)

I didn't say you said gray market was B-stock, re-read please.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

gray market = authorized dealers selling out of dealer territory (and into another's territory) as I understand it.

gray market = tranship.



Keep in mind, though, that just because you buy an item from a dealer many miles away, doesn't mean he is transhipping. You may very well have to go this route if you don't have a local dealer.


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

quality_sound : Well, when I first got A6450, I thought it was a fake as I bought from Fleabay. When I got the noise issues, it is not worth for me to do another 2 shippings which really cost me a bomb for it. But as soon as the internals are stripped, with the built quality, board design and components used, I'm happy with it.
Talk about gray market, is who created this? Most of the time is seller and manufacturers themselfs. Manufacturers only care about sales.... And when there's people wanted to buy 1 lot of products, for sure they will sell it.


----------



## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

jimbno1 said:


> This was the statement that implied that installation was free.
> 
> 'So many people just assume it's cheaper to buy online. ....Plus if you didn't buy it from us, you get to pay install too."


Sorry, after re-reading that I can see where there would be a misunderstanding. I meant in that one instance. We install HU's free. Usually we charge for screens and nav units, but so long as no custom labor is involved (and you're buying something that isn't the cheapest thing we have) I've done a few for free.





jimbno1 said:


> I would love to deal with my local dealers/installers. I have gone to the shop of one and he recommended a certain midbass that will remain nameless. I asked if he would negotiate down off the MSRP of $500. He said he could knock off $25-$30 bucks. Well I had to pass on that bargain. I guess I must be a douchebag.


I digress. I've worked in the industry for the past 17 years, in the same state. I'm basing my comments on what I've seen in Michigan at the 4 or 5 different companies I've worked for. 

Sounds like he might have been the douchebag, in that instance. 
I don't know, but I'm amazed at the different experiences people have in other parts of the country (or Canada, eh?) vs. where I'm at now. The economy isn't what it once was, and it's hard to get people to part with money right now. That's why we match online prices frequently. We don't make much on the product, but I guess it's better than nothing. 




jimbno1 said:


> I will still hope to use him for my install but with my crappy used equipment I bought off here or ebay.


I never said used equipment was crappy. I said it was similar to grey market gear in that it also doesn't have a warranty. The other difference I can think of off the top of my head is that used equipment was originally purchased by someone else, so someone, somewhere already made their money off it....kind like buying a 2 year old car so that someone else can take the hit on depreciation. 




jimbno1 said:


> Like JBL 2118H midbass, PRS 4 mids, Rainbow Cal-28 tweeters, ESX Q and JL HD amps, Pioneer P9 Combo . You know worthless junk that was not purchased authorized and does not have a warranty. And I believe I paid more for the JBLs that MSRP, I know I did for some Peerless XLS 8's. But with all that I still paid way less than one set of the recommended "nameless" midbasses for both sets.


Nice equipment list. I didn't say it was worthless, I said I wouldn't pay more than half MSRP for anything used. That's just me, apparently. As far as I'm concerned, I would pay the extra money to have new stuff and a warranty. Now, I am looking at some used stuff, mainly to try out. If it works out, great. If it doesn't I can resell it. If it's bad out of the box, I'm going to be pissed, unless it was advertised as such, ya know?




jimbno1 said:


> Really I would love to hand it over to a professional. The mark up on equipment especially wire and cables which is almost criminal.


It's like anything else tho. You buy a TV, they make some money on the TV, but they make more on the accessories...HDMI cables, Power Conditioners etc.




jimbno1 said:


> And the $80 per hour for labor seems excessive too. That rate is over $100K on a yearly basis.


How did you come up with that figure? Typically, from what I've seen most shops pay 32, 35 or 38% commission vs. draw, or 50% straight commission w/o draw, or a base plus spiffs. So, say $80/hr = $100k a year in charged labor per installer. The installer is only going to see about $38k of that. 
That's not a lot of money. And installers aren't really unionized, so we don't get things like cost of living increases and stuff. I've probably made $40k +/- $2k a year for the past 10 years. Also, most labor isn't billed hourly. There are usually set prices for certain labor items. Amp install $70, C/O HU $55, etc...those are the same whether they take 1 hr or 3. 
BTW, we typically estimate labor at around $60/hr.



jimbno1 said:


> I know installers do not have full 40 hr weeks booked all the time. But why is that my fault. So I pay to make up for fact that the shop is not fully booked? How about $50 bucks an hour instead?


True. I know most of us work far more than 40/hrs/wk. I work more like 57.
At some point, someone probably put a reasonable amount of thought into their labor dollars. It's a fine line, too much and you don't do anything. Not enough and you can't keep the doors open. And it's probably evolved over the years. So, you are suggesting they should charge less when they are slow? I know we haggle over labor all the time. If I don't have anything going on then, yeah, I'm going to cut prices or labor some to get a job in the garage, but I'm not going to work for free either. I've gotta eat too. 



jimbno1 said:


> We all want the to have quality goods and services at reasonable prices. I would really prefer to deal with my local merchants. But I will not pay a HUGE premium to do so. I want my installer to make money. But there is a limit.


Agreed. I'm not suggesting you *should* pay a -huge- premium. It's like 7-11, they're prices suck, but how often do you stop and grab a 6 pack on the way home cause it's right there?

But understand that paying a little bit more (say $50 more on an HD amp, to get it local w/ warranty) is helping EVERYONE.

I'll try to stay out of this and let the original poster's thread get back to what he originally asked.

And I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings, but now [/rant off] 


Jay


----------



## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

mark1478 said:


> I use internet pricing as a haggling tool with whatever I buy to get as close as i can to that price. the extra money ive spent over the years over that internet price has resulted in good friends, good connections, and probably better pricing over the years when i returned for new products whatever it is


Exactly. Hit the nail on the head. This is how to do it.

Jay


----------



## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

ss1088 said:


> Another thing to consider is that most of us install the equipment ourselves. If you do this the warranty is pretty much useless anyway. You may get a 1 year warranty from an authorized dealer if you pay them even more to do a lack luster install, but if you do it yourself the warranty is then usually limited to 30-90 days which is pretty much worthless.


We might want to look at your install, but we don't shorten the warranty on someone who installs their product themselves, well, unless it's done really wrongly 

Jay


----------



## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> gray market = authorized dealers selling out of dealer territory (and into another's territory) as I understand it.
> 
> gray market = tranship.
> 
> ...


Or unauthorized dealers selling stuff they buy from authorized dealers and resell w/o serial numbers or warranties. Like Sonicelectronix. Pioneer and JL have both told us they have depts. that buy stuff from places like this, ebay, etc. and then trace the serial numbers back to the original dealer and suspend or terminate their privledges for selling said product. 

Or at least, I kind of think of them in the same way.

Jay


----------



## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Quality sound: Was the "snip...Anyone besides Jay...snip" because I've already overrun this thread, or because you knew I knew what it was? 

Jay


----------



## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

what I don't understand is this: how are so many other businesses competing with online sales, but B&M CA shops seem to be dying a slow and painful death? You don't see that happening with sunglass hut yet people buy cheap sunglasses online all the time... What about pharmacies? People can get their meds online for cheaper and in bulk, but hey the real deal still flourishes. What exactly is it about CA that makes it so vulnerable to online sales? Is it the pain of huge markups that is driving customers so far away from B&M shops? Is it the DIY tendencies of the crowd, the better OEM stereos that are coming out, the integration of climate controls and gps and entertainment? I just don't see anything that's ruining the CA industry that can really be blamed directly on internet sales. I think the internet sales are just a symptom of the larger problem.


----------



## skulboep (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies you guys, but I was simply wondering if anyone has had a positive experience buying non-defaced (with serial # intact), non-fake JL equipment online from an unauthorized dealer. I didn't mean to start a feud/debate over B&M vs. unauthorized online sellers and the implications of such sales on the global car audio economy.

However, from what I've read so far, I'm scared to drop a nice chunk of change on potentially defaced or fake JL gear. However, with the "authorized" MSRP being wayyyy outside of the realm of affordibility, I'll probably just drop JL altogether and go with any one of the number of subs that receive awesome reviews on this site at a fraction of the cost. 

JL can't be THAT much better that others to justify their high MSRP, especially when other more moderately priced brands afford such a vigorous fan following on this and other car audio sites.


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Fake JL subs you can find, but not amps.....


----------



## sniper5431 (Dec 8, 2009)

This is a can of worms you stirred up.


----------



## diamondjoequimby (Jun 30, 2009)

wow...a lot in this thread.

Keep in mind:

1) Your market is likely quite a bit different than one 100 miles away, and different from 100 miles away from that. Try to visualize the industry from a scope beyond your personal garage. That is what the manufacturers have to do and that is what leads to their policies and decisions.

2) Supporting your local business and economy is ALWAYS a good thing. I realize you personally may not have the $ to pay the retail "premium", but it really is a domino effect when it comes to where you spend your money.

3) The installers that make $100k+ in the country can probably be counted without taking off all your clothes. When a shop charges $80/hr typically anywhere from 30%-50% goes to the installer, the rest goes to things like lights, business insurance, employee health insurance, and the ability to pay the bills on the products themselves because the profit margin is eroding.

4) When you buy from a retailer you help fund the retailer to pay the bills. Those bills include those to the manufacturers. Those manufacturers (the good ones anyway) take the profit from those products and invest in things like R&D so we can get new, better, smaller, more powerful, more functional products. Chances are a decent number of the dealers that have to dump product on the gray market can't pay their bills and the manufacturer gets stiffed.

That being said, there are plenty of retailers and manufacturers that have no clue to to run a business, especially in these ever changing economic times. That is quite obvious with the number that have closed and gone out of business in recent years. They have a lot of culpability for the current state of the industry as well.

I guess my overall point is instead of looking at the industry from a 5' overhead view take a step back and look at is from a 25000' view to gain some perspective when making purchase decisions. You may be surprised to see what you are _really_ saving.


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

^Good point.... But then now some people wish not to pay that "premium" and sometimes is the retailers themself choose to commit suicide.


----------



## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

I bought a 300/4 off ebay about 6 years ago. It served me well up until 6 months ago. The front left channel began to die a slow death. I pulled it out, and upgraded.

About a month ago, i decided to figure out what to do with it. a local guy wants 175 to fix it. JL wants $120. but come to find out, the seller i bought it from on ebay removed the serial # for some reason. So now i dont even know if JL will fix it at all.

Looks like i might be stuck with a rare JL 3 channel amp


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

175 is kinda expensive...... But the amp already served you for 6 years..... Considered worth that money.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

JayinMI said:


> Quality sound: Was the "snip...Anyone besides Jay...snip" because I've already overrun this thread, or because you knew I knew what it was?
> 
> Jay


Because you're in the biz. I knew that you knew.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

aphexacid said:


> I bought a 300/4 off ebay about 6 years ago. It served me well up until 6 months ago. The front left channel began to die a slow death. I pulled it out, and upgraded.
> 
> About a month ago, i decided to figure out what to do with it. a local guy wants 175 to fix it. JL wants $120. but come to find out, the seller i bought it from on ebay removed the serial # for some reason. So now i dont even know if JL will fix it at all.
> 
> Looks like i might be stuck with a rare JL 3 channel amp


If it was under warranty they wouldn't. Well not for free anyway. Since you're WELL past the warranty period and you're paying try will.


----------



## diamondjoequimby (Jun 30, 2009)

aphexacid said:


> I bought a 300/4 off ebay about 6 years ago. It served me well up until 6 months ago. The front left channel began to die a slow death. I pulled it out, and upgraded.
> 
> About a month ago, i decided to figure out what to do with it. a local guy wants 175 to fix it. JL wants $120. but come to find out, the seller i bought it from on ebay removed the serial # for some reason. So now i dont even know if JL will fix it at all.
> 
> Looks like i might be stuck with a rare JL 3 channel amp


you can also have it fixed and pay to have it "re-serialized"


----------



## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

If the local JL audio dealer didn't always try to take me for MSRP and refuse to budge beyond 10% i'd have no problem buying local. Hard to complain with a 500 dollar amp vs a 750 equivalent. I've always bought new off ebay from sellers with the best ratings. Have yet to have a problem.


----------



## tonym (Jun 21, 2009)

serial will be missing from box when you get them...i bought mine online for 200.00 off reg price....but came with the serials cut out of the box...


----------



## ss1088 (Apr 24, 2008)

My HD 900/5 has the number on the Box. I got it from Woofersetc.com


----------



## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

I will just throw in my real world experience. I bought a set of JL audio ZR components on ebay for cheap and got great play out of them for several years. I'd do it again.


----------



## necrophidious (Aug 14, 2007)

I bought a Zapco amp from WoofersEtc that did not work. Had to pay to ship it back, and it was returned 3 months later, still broken. Reshipped it back again (3rd time paying for shipping), and still have yet to hear from them (not sure I ever will). The amp did have serial #'s on it, but when I spoke with Robert over at Zapco, I was told the serial numbers did not match anything from their inventory. Buying unauthorized has it's risks. I won't do it again.


----------



## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

Well to be honest, woofersetc has a terrible track record with that type of stuff. Yes of course there are plenty that have NEVER had a problem. But i have been burned majorly by them, and my brother in law, and countless other people.

I have 4 places i buy from to make things simple. If its a super expensive item, i'm either scared about, or not sure if i'll like, i buy from crutchfield. I bought my first CD7200 from them, and was able to return it for a full refund no cost to me.

And then the rest of my stuff i either buy from Sonic electronix, because i trust them and have dealt with not only warranty stuff, but full on returns. 
Like my Eclipse ZA1200 i just returned. Its a great amp, but it was sucking the life out of my car big time. without going into another discussion, i dont want to do the necessary upgrades needed to properly run the amp, with the rest of my stuff. So i returned it. The credited me less restock fee. And then i bought an RSD1200.1

I buy from Trusted members of our community. For the most part, no one is here to rip anyone off. This is an obvious, no warranty situation most of the time. so it makes it less complicated. the good part is that you'll have the honesty of the seller to let you know that, yeah its used, but it DOES work. So you take the risk because its cheap, and hope it lasts you.

But i will say, that i almost always try shops first. Problem is, there are NONE i know of that have anything i want. Its all cheap SPL crapola. Im not interest in any of that. I dont have an entire Dynaudio setup in my car, but i dont want it outfitted with all BOSS components either.

Its all a risk if you dont buy from a trusted authorized dealer.


----------



## skulboep (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks everyone for your input! After this discussion I've learned several things and have decided to:

1.) Not buy from massive online warehouses which sell unauthorized gear. While the savings is significant, it seems that enough people have had problems to make purchasing such gear a significant risk. It also protects B&M shops who strive to sell authorized gear and make a name for themselves honorably by standing behind their products and providing excellent customer service. 

2.) Not buy JL. It seems that for the money (or even significantly less money) there seems to be as good or better gear out there. While I'm not new to mobile audio by any means and do enjoy high-quality sound, I simply can't justify a 200% - 300% price difference for "premium" names that are not 200% - 300% better sounding.

For those of you who are curious, after much research I have decided to go with a Phoenix Gold RScD 12" sub (brand new) to the tune of a whopping $85 (yes, that price is AUTHORIZED through Phoenix Gold) and will be able to get an AWESOME sub setup including amp, box and cables for less than the JL Slash 500/1 alone would have gone for at even unauthorized prices.

There's simply no comparison when price and overall risk is taken into consideration.


----------



## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*I vote to do what Brian linked on the first page.*


----------



## tonym (Jun 21, 2009)

Nice sub for the money....

I run all old school PG amps....

3 m50's 2 m100's


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

^Well, I still prefer JL amps anyway. Atleast with their balanced differential input is a good point to consider. 
If you want to buy unauthorized gears, you must have a very good technical support with you. 
You are lucky that you have only 200-300% overpriced. My country normally the "premium" gears are overpriced for >800%.


----------



## angelspeedfreak (Oct 5, 2009)

IMO - buying authorized is like having auto insurance. 99% of the time it is just throwing our money away. I spend $387 a month on insurance for 3 cars and a motorcycle and have never been in an accendent. so that is $4,644 dollars a year that I throw away. If the goverment didn't require insuarance I would dump it the first chance I got....

That said - I buy almost all my stuff from unathorized places to save lots of $$$, then just pray nothing happens.


----------



## aphexacid (Oct 24, 2009)

angelspeedfreak said:


> IMO - buying authorized is like having auto insurance. 99% of the time it is just throwing our money away. I spend $387 a month on insurance for 3 cars and a motorcycle and have never been in an accendent. so that is $4,644 dollars a year that I throw away. If the goverment didn't require insuarance I would dump it the first chance I got....
> 
> That said - I buy almost all my stuff from unathorized places to save lots of $$$, then just pray nothing happens.



i dont disagree at all. Especially these days. I've never had a piece of car fi gear go bad except for that 300/4. And that was 6 years later. 

Warranties can be big time ******** half of the time anyway.

For instance, the clear run around i got at crutchfield with the cd7200. they advertised this 3 year warranty. 2 years flat, then an extra year if you "register the product". 

Oh yeah? well, there was NO WHERE to register. And if you ask Eclipse, like i did, they'll laugh, and say that crutchfield is insane. The 3 year warranty is if you buy AND install from an authorized dealer.

its all ********.

theres a huge thread on why you SHOULD buy from a local dealer.

but i can think of 99 reasons why that extra money should stay in my pocket. Especially when the dealers wont budge on price.

meh! whatever floats your boat


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Sex Cells said:


> If the local JL audio dealer didn't always try to take me for MSRP and refuse to budge beyond 10% i'd have no problem buying local. Hard to complain with a 500 dollar amp vs a 750 equivalent. I've always bought new off ebay from sellers with the best ratings. Have yet to have a problem.


Consider yourself lucky. One of the two local JL Audio dealers marks his merchandise ABOVE MSRP then bitches when you ask him to come down to MSRP. If you want them to go below MSRP, the sales associate will give you a funny look and tell you to get out of his store!

Then again, I haven't been there in quite some time. Also, the owner told me that his marking merchandise above MSRP was for 0% in store financing only and his employees should have dealt with me if I was paying via cash, debit, or credit card. I guess I should drop in to see if this economy has made them think twice about selling at MSRP and above. Regardless, the last time I was in there, they were complaining about the internet kicking their asses.


----------



## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

ChrisB said:


> Consider yourself lucky. One of the two local JL Audio dealers marks his merchandise ABOVE MSRP then bitches when you ask him to come down to MSRP. If you want them to go below MSRP, the sales associate will give you a funny look and tell you to get out of his store!
> 
> Then again, I haven't been there in quite some time. *Also, the owner told me that his marking merchandise above MSRP was for 0% in store financing only and his employees should have dealt with me if I was paying via cash, debit, or credit card. * I guess I should drop in to see if this economy has made them think twice about selling at MSRP and above. Regardless, the last time I was in there, they were complaining about the internet kicking their asses.


lol, thats just as ****ty. 

Tonestly, when they may have been above MSRP, i don't know. Its been since 2005 when i bought a W6v2 from them. Nice guys though, although they frequently gave out miss-information.


----------



## Tony407 (Feb 22, 2006)

Sorry to bring up such an sold thread, but I found it when Googling "where is the serial number on my JL Audio amp?" In short, I bought an HD600/4 on eBay for several hundred dollars off MSRP and realized it had a sticker over the serial number on the box. But what perplexes me even more is there's no serial number on the amp itself. What ever happened to manufacturers engraving or stamping the serial number on their products? Do you have to take the thing apart just to see it? At any rate, I'm sure I'll scratch my own "serial number" on the bottom of the amp just for the purposes of being able to trace it if it gets stolen out of my car. 

At any rate, I did some reading up on "gray market gear" and I have to admit I've purchased a lot of it over the years. I've always had excellent luck with a few of eBay's big sellers. I'll continue to do so and save a ton of money. Ironically, most if not all of the warranty problems I've had over the years have occurred when I've purchased the item in a retail store. 

Tony


----------



## Jsracing (Apr 1, 2011)

Since this thread got brought back to life...

I saw someone mention Sonicelectronix shaves/removes the SNs from non-authorized brands. Can others confirm this?



skulboep said:


> 2.) Not buy JL. It seems that for the money (or even significantly less money) there seems to be as good or better gear out there. While I'm not new to mobile audio by any means and do enjoy high-quality sound, I simply can't justify a 200% - 300% price difference for "premium" names that are not 200% - 300% better sounding.


Regarding JL, the "price" charged is up to the retailer, not JL. MSRPs are all high, but because of demand, the retailer(s) chooses to keep at MSRP. I got my JL equipment for less than any unauthorized I've been able to find from an authorized dealer, SN, warranty and all because he chooses to charge that price to me. For the price I paid, I honestly cannot think of a better amp for my application and needs. I do like certain brands, but I'm never a big enough follower of any brand to ignore bad product or bad pricing. In the same light, I never ignore a brand that makes a good product at a good price. I do like JL and do think their products are good (love their amps, really like their subs, neutral on their components), and for the prices I get, they're a great value. If you can't get JL for below MSRP, there's better product out there, but that's due to the retailer, not JL.


----------

