# Most detailed 10" sub



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

I'm looking for the most detailed 10" sub that I can fit under my rear seat. I don't need massive output. Something that can run at 120db and stay musical is what I'm after. I'm particularly interested in its performance between 60 and 120 hz. That need to be smooth and musical. 

I believe it can only be 6.5" deep too unfortually.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Dayton Reference ho10 is my choice for your needs. Clean with good weight to the sound.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Dayton Reference ho10 is my choice for your needs. Clean with good weight to the sound.


My frog gb 10s have great lows. Injust feel like the upper range could be cleaner.
The Daytons are mentioned here a lot may give them a shot.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

drop1 said:


> My frog gb 10s have great lows. Injust feel like the upper range could be cleaner.
> The Daytons are mentioned here a lot may give them a shot.


where are they crossed? I would think between the GB10 and GB60 you would be at 65hz LP on the sub and 80hz HP on the mids...and you should have all the detail you require.

But maybe they are a little too warm for you and you need more of a SNAP to the kickdrum? Maybe a IDQ 10 or IDQ12? I think thats a nice tight dry sound, but you will lose a little low end.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

miniSQ said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > My frog gb 10s have great lows. Injust feel like the upper range could be cleaner.
> ...


Warm is exactly what they are. Thick. Too thick.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

drop1 said:


> Warm is exactly what they are. Thick. Too thick.


I tend to agree with that, IDQ has dryer sound...might be worth a try.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

drop1 said:


> Warm is exactly what they are. Thick. Too thick.


eq..


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> eq..


That just makes too much sense.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

locoface said:


> SkizeR said:
> 
> 
> > eq..
> ...


You act as though I haven't eqed them to death lol . Or plugged the port. Or taken one out to give the other more air space. 
I dont just give up on gear without running it through the gambit.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

May I ask more about this sound of the GB10 you do not like? Debated on getting either a pair of the GB10 or the GB12 for our Ram, curious what about them you are not liking.


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*My biased opinion is for the SSA Demon 10.*


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

How can a speaker be “detailed?” I cringe when I hear these adjectives being thrown around. A speaker or enclosure can either play the frequencies needed or not for the desired goal.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

rayray881 said:


> How can a speaker be “detailed?” I cringe when I hear these adjectives being thrown around. A speaker or enclosure can either play the frequencies needed or not for the desired goal.


That is beyond not true. Speakers are expressive . They all have a sound and liked to be tuned a certain way. The audio frog gbs are smooth and warm when tuned correctly but just a tiny but blurry when compared to the focal utopias which can be thick and warm but have better clarity through the midbass region and more top end detail.

Subs are no different. For instance w7 vs w6c2 vs audiofrog all sound very different.

By your logic we should all be using $15 raw drivers.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

chithead said:


> May I ask more about this sound of the GB10 you do not like? Debated on getting either a pair of the GB10 or the GB12 for our Ram, curious what about them you are not liking.


They are great subs. Nothing technically wrong with them. They just sound a bit thick to me. Maybe slow to react. I've spent 3 years with them and more than anything I just wish they were a touch more transparent.
If you like subs that fill the cabin with solid warm gooey bass, you will love these. I want something sharper, more open sounding.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

rayray881 said:


> How can a speaker be “detailed?” I cringe when I hear these adjectives being thrown around. A speaker or enclosure can either play the frequencies needed or not for the desired goal.


distortion. either linear or non linear. In this case im thinking its linear, which can be accounted for with eq.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

The HO 10-4 is one of my longtime favorites for being detailed and smooth, but generally when I need to tighten up the response of a sub, I concentrate on EQ in the 60hz range. Wide or narrow Q varies per application of course, but right around 60 can either fatten (boost) or thin out (cut) the bass without losing much below and above. 

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

drop1 said:


> Speakers are expressive . They all have a sound and liked to be tuned a certain way.


Ok, this is just silly.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Ahhh, I see what you are saying. The Dayton HO and IDQ do both sound similar to that. I've also used the Morel Ultimo SC and NVX XQW (made by SB Acoustics) - I'd say the NVX has a bit more, "grunt" to it than the Ultimo SC did, but wow did that Morel completely disappear with the most minimal of tuning effort.


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> rayray881 said:
> 
> 
> > How can a speaker be “detailed?” I cringe when I hear these adjectives being thrown around. A speaker or enclosure can either play the frequencies needed or not for the desired goal.
> ...


Yes, I comprehend that is a big factor as well. I’m more or less referring to how a speaker “sounds.”


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

I'll never understand.
Why does something always have to be "wrong" with you guys. 
Cant a person just dislike a speakers sound or just flat out get bored with them after years?

The frogs are good speakers. Never denied it.
I'm just over them. The are really good at being smooth and warm but I'm wanting sharp and in your face right now. What I'm after isnt something that can be tuned in. It's a completely different sound. 
It's like the difference between beryllium tweeters and silk domes . They will both produce the same frequcies but sound very different from each other.


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

drop1 said:


> rayray881 said:
> 
> 
> > How can a speaker be “detailed?” I cringe when I hear these adjectives being thrown around. A speaker or enclosure can either play the frequencies needed or not for the desired goal.
> ...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

drop1 said:


> I'll never understand.
> Why does something always have to be "wrong" with you guys.
> Cant a person just dislike a speakers sound or just flat out get bored with them after years?
> 
> ...


i dont care what you like or dont like. what i care about is silly made up **** being posted as fact. Your multiple other threads have proven that you arent really 100% sure about what you are talking about, and its time to just rip the band aid off before people start believing bad info.


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

drop1 said:


> What I'm after isnt something that can be tuned in.


Alright i'm tapping out. One day on diyma and I just want to shoot myself. 
:dead_horse:


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > I'll never understand.
> ...


I'm not pro when it comes to install that's for sure and in terrible at trouble shooting because iv never really had to deal with it but sound I know. Do you see me here asking a bunch of tuning questions? No because I know exactly how to get the most out if what I have. 
I know within minutes if fiddling with a speakers tuning what it can and cant do. 
For the most part speakers can be made to sound like each other yes? Amps too. 
That for the most part is thing. They will never be identical. 
And if you dont believe the utopia sets are more detailed than the frogs you need your hearing checked. 
Yes I've been having issues lately with the physical side of system but I know exactly what the frogs are and arent capable of. 
You can bash me all you want on the troubleshooting but when it comes to actual sound, no way. I've been playing with sound for over 30 years now. I know what I like and dont like. 
I tired the frogs on a whim because my last truck with a full utopia system went under 9 ft of water and while the frogs have been good to me, Andy even better they do not in any way come close to the utopias to me. 

You can not believe anything I say and that's fine but I'm straight up inviting you to bring your butt down here and park it in my drivers seat and see for yourself . That's an open invitation to ANYONE. I bet that will shut you up with the quickness...


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*

You describe thick/warm for the Audiofrogs. You now desire sharp and in your face. I'm not too sure if I'm grasping both, especially the latter. I do know with some subs like the HO, they're very low distortion and can easily be made to sound dry in a slightly larger enclosure. IE very little overhang if that which isn't a bad thing when combined with the vehicle if you like that sort of sound. I would call it definitive bass at that point. They're very easy to blend and disappear but there's definitely no smearing between notes or exaggerations seemingly in amplitude. 

Can you detail further what you mean by in your face? Is that a volume/output adjective? 

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


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## JMikeK (Jan 2, 2019)

I find it a bit hilarious how home audio guys despise Bose because they spend their money making commodity drivers sound pretty good and then you have car audio guys who argue you can make any driver sound good with the right tuning. In general, car audio gurus are just better at audio than home audio for a number of reasons, but neither argument is 100% right or wrong.

Also, this post is extra-confusing. Looks like you're arguing with yourself.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

JMikeK said:


> In general, car audio gurus are just better at audio than home audio for a number of reasons, but neither argument is 100% right or wrong.


Wouldn’t necessarily agree with this. Many aspects cross over greatly but they are also completely different environments with different goals/focuses.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*



Bayboy said:


> You describe thick/warm for the Audiofrogs. You now desire sharp and in your face. I'm not too sure if I'm grasping both, especially the latter. I do know with some subs like the HO, they're very low distortion and can easily be made to sound dry in a slightly larger enclosure. IE very little overhang if that which isn't a bad thing when combined with the vehicle if you like that sort of sound. I would call it definitive bass at that point. They're very easy to blend and disappear but there's definitely no smearing between notes or exaggerations seemingly in amplitude.
> 
> Can you detail further what you mean by in your face? Is that a volume/output adjective?
> 
> Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


I can't speak for Drop1, but the way i understand his question is this way.

If i am listening to a kick drum, the sub can generally handle that OK, and yes i know that its not just the sub, but a combination of the sub and the midbass.

But then when the drummer his ripping on other parts of the kit i want to hear it when his stick cracks off the edge of the drum. 

I could always get that with the older IDQ's i had, but i do not get that with the audiofrogs.

Skiezr may be right, its tuning, but to me its also that IMO the GB subs have a softness to them that does not give me that impact.

And maybe its not supposed to be that exaggerated, but i always loved my IDQ's for giving me that snappy bass. The didn't have a ton of output and didn't play super low, but i liked them for what they were.

And to the guy who wants to shoot himself over a simple conversation...wow.


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

*Most detailed 10&quot; sub*

You all are over complicating this, if it’s impact you want you need to make sure that sub to midbass crossover is in phase and you are killing the proper peaks. It’s not magic coming from (insert random brand here) impact is not just Sub/Midbass it’s also your Mids-Tweets. If your tune is **** your impact is ****. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*



miniSQ said:


> I can't speak for Drop1, but the way i understand his question is this way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sorry I want to hang myself is that better? It’s called being sarcastic but I’m sure that sarcasm flew over your head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

That's a bit harsh and unnecessary, but blame it on the lack of proper description of the problem. Using "audiophile" terms usually results in this but trying to get one to explain himself better is the best way. For all most knew, he just didn't like the way the subs sounded and was looking for the opposite. That's understandable to a point. Tuning issue, could very well be, but that's still a stab at what he's actually trying to describe. I digress

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


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## Def!ant (Dec 30, 2014)

JMikeK said:


> Also, this post is extra-confusing. Looks like you're arguing with yourself.



They are. 

Then they scratch their heads on why meaningful forum participation is gone.


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## AD Ventium (Mar 22, 2017)

I have noticed that drop1 seems to talk from a place of knowledge or research and some of his threads are informative but I do think there is just a tad bit too much on the new threads all the time on trying to find the best “blank” when you obviously have access to good shops or variety around you just test things out instead and get different enclosures and more than likely you’ll find bass you like.


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

rayray881 said:


> Yes, I comprehend that is a big factor as well. I’m more or less referring to how a speaker “sounds.”


That's exactly what he is talking about. The sound of a speaker can be LARGELY determined from it's linear and non-linear distortion, but you seem to think that's different from "how it sounds". I don't think you know what you don't know. I state that based on what you said that you "comprehend" what he said, and then go on to say about "how it sounds", which is actually another way of saying the same exact thing. Linear and non-linear distortions _almost _completely define how a speaker "sounds", with other things held constant.

As Skizer said, how detailed a speaker "is", is largely dependent on how bad it's own reproduction is masked by it's distortion products. Too much distortion products = detail is lost because the original signal is compromised by the presence of distortion products that are not supposed to be there. So Yes, speaker detail can definitively be quantified by a lot of objective terms, such as linear distortion, non-linear distortions (harmonic, intermodulation, etc). 




Hillbilly SQ said:


> Dayton Reference ho10 is my choice for your needs. Clean with good weight to the sound.


Funny you should mention that. I'm about to do my own showdown for a home monitor project, aimed at very Loud low-distortion 10" bass from about 35-40Hz up to around 180Hz. The Dayton Reference 10" HO is one of the contenders. it will be:

Dayton Reference HO 10"
Dayton Ultimax UM10-22
Adire Audio Brahma 10D2
CSS SDX10 S4
JBL W10GTi

I'm only testing those because only those meet my _personal _criteria. The main object of the test is non-linear harmonic distortion via a Dayton OmniMic V2 at high power levels, but some tests will be purposely skewed to take into account some would be used in different multiples than the others. The Reference HO and the SDX10 get here tomorrow. Alignment will be DSP'd passive radiator box. Brahma's should be here soon.


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

Oscar said:


> rayray881 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I comprehend that is a big factor as well. I’m more or less referring to how a speaker “sounds.”
> ...


I don’t know everything. I was always under the assumption that 500hz is 500hz and 45hz is 45hz. Its impossible, for me at least, to comprehend what someone is saying when they describe sound as it is purely subjective. I can measure and hear what 200hz is. As far as distortion, I was also under the impression that as long as the driver is capable of playing it’s intended frequency range at the desired volume level, that speaker distortion wasn’t that big of a concern. For me personally, if I can’t hear the actual distortion or perceive it, I’m not concerned. Perhaps I’m off base.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Oscar said:


> That's exactly what he is talking about. The sound of a speaker can be LARGELY determined from it's linear and non-linear distortion, but you seem to think that's different from "how it sounds". I don't think you know what you don't know. I state that based on what you said that you "comprehend" what he said, and then go on to say about "how it sounds", which is actually another way of saying the same exact thing. Linear and non-linear distortions _almost _completely define how a speaker "sounds", with other things held constant.
> 
> As Skizer said, how detailed a speaker "is", is largely dependent on how bad it's own reproduction is masked by it's distortion products. Too much distortion products = detail is lost because the original signal is compromised by the presence of distortion products that are not supposed to be there. So Yes, speaker detail can definitively be quantified by a lot of objective terms, such as linear distortion, non-linear distortions (harmonic, intermodulation, etc).
> 
> ...


I’ll be waiting for that shootout so please keep us posted. I’ve been experimenting with the 4 different subwoofers I have in ported and sealed boxes and manipulating their responses with my DSP’s. I took some of the principles and knowledge I gained over the last few years and put them to practice. Let’s just say I’m encouraged by what I’ve been doing. Messaging and tuning a subwoofer makes a big difference with a DSP more than I think some people actually realize. Starting with a low distortion subwoofer is definitely key. 

As for drop1, I think he deserves some credit. He’s brought to the forum some interesting subjects. This place is kind of getting dead and he is posting positive constructive commentary and sometimes amusing commentary too. I say cut the guy some slack, he’s all right in my book.


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

rayray881 said:


> I don’t know everything. I was always under the assumption that 500hz is 500hz and 45hz is 45hz. Its impossible, for me at least, to comprehend what someone is saying when they describe sound as it is purely subjective. I can measure and hear what 200hz is. As far as distortion, I was also under the impression that as long as the driver is capable of playing it’s intended frequency range at the desired volume level, that speaker distortion wasn’t that big of a concern. For me personally, if I can’t hear the actual distortion or perceive it, I’m not concerned. Perhaps I’m off base.


I understand what you are saying, but rest assured that distortion is a major problem when aiming for sound quallity. 500Hz is 500Hz, when you only think of the _fundamental_. If you have higher order harmonics, then that masks the sound of the fundamental (and there always are, to a certain extent), but you're right: if _you personally_ can't perceive it, it should be of no consequence _for you_. The same might not be true for other people. 50% 3rd order distortion will wreak havoc on a SQ system, as it will be 1,500Hz only 3 dB softer than the fundamental, which is easy _for me_ to hear. That's an extreme example, to illustrate a basic concept, but in practice it becomes much hairier due to speakers attempting to play lots of frequencies at the same time. The harmonic distortions products are cumulative, and then you have intermodulation distortion the starts to set in. If high enough, the pure 500Hz waveform (or any waveform for that matter) instead of looking like a sinewave (if you were to graphically plot it's amplitude vs time), now looks all jagged due to superposition of all these other frequencies. That's how two different real instruments can sound completely different, even though they're playing the same _fundamental _note.



JCsAudio said:


> I’ll be waiting for that shootout so please keep us posted.


I'll make a thread about it, just like I did for the 10" midbass shootout that left me quite surprised at some of the results.


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

AudioFrog GB10D2 or GB10D4
JBL GTI
Arc Black

either one will work....


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Oscar said:


> That's exactly what he is talking about. The sound of a speaker can be LARGELY determined from it's linear and non-linear distortion, but you seem to think that's different from "how it sounds". I don't think you know what you don't know. I state that based on what you said that you "comprehend" what he said, and then go on to say about "how it sounds", which is actually another way of saying the same exact thing. Linear and non-linear distortions _almost _completely define how a speaker "sounds", with other things held constant.
> 
> As Skizer said, how detailed a speaker "is", is largely dependent on how bad it's own reproduction is masked by it's distortion products. Too much distortion products = detail is lost because the original signal is compromised by the presence of distortion products that are not supposed to be there. So Yes, speaker detail can definitively be quantified by a lot of objective terms, such as linear distortion, non-linear distortions (harmonic, intermodulation, etc).
> 
> ...


The ho10-4 is a very low inductance woofer as you probably already know so should do quite well playing on up there. I know in past years it was known for being able to be crossed into the low 100's without letting its location be known and that was in the .7 tuned to 30hz everyone was using with it at the time. I have an ho12-44 here waiting to go in about .6 net stuffed with polyfil and somewhere in the .8 cube range gives it a .7 alignment. Inductance is in the 3mh range but doubt that will be an issue for me because I have to cross my sub quite low to keep it from overpowering between 60 and 100hz in my truck with a crazy high transfer function. My IDQ12v4d4 is quite nice but it needs a HUGE BOX with over 3 cubes giving it the desired .7 alignment. It's in 1.4ish stuffed with fill right now and gives a nice dry sound that's very easy to blend. Love the sub but don't love the amount of space the box takes up in my single cab Ram. I need to hang on to it in hopes I'll find use for it later because it really is a good sounding sub. And I rebuilt it myself to convert it into a v4 with the much sturdier steel basket vs the junk composite basket of the v3.

So why did I post all this? Well just rambling on about tech mumbo jumbo like we did in the old days when this forum was more about understanding why something acted the way it did. Not directing this at anyone in general.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*



locoface said:


> You all are over complicating this,


and this is reason #85 of why i am so over dealing with hobbyists. Maybe its a good thing for me that this forum will be dead soon.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

drop1 said:


> I'm looking for the most detailed 10" sub that I can fit under my rear seat. I don't need massive output. Something that can run at 120db and stay musical is what I'm after. I'm particularly interested in its performance between 60 and 120 hz. That need to be smooth and musical.
> 
> I believe it can only be 6.5" deep too unfortually.


I would highly recommend the SEAS L26RO4Y 10" subwoofer. It's mounting depth is just 5.6''. IIRC, Jim Becker was using this sub in his Dodge RAM pickup when he won the MECA Extreme Championship a few years back.

This is a sub that I've found is similar in many ways to the DIYMA R12 and Dayton HO in being super detailed and blending seamlessly.

You might want to read about the Linkwitz open-baffle home speaker system kit that is sold by Madisound for more information on why this subwoofer was developed and chosen for that speaker project...

Or, there is a brief description by Linkwitz himself on the Madisound product page...

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-10-subwoofers/seas-l26ro4y-10-subwoofer-4-layer-vc-d1004-04/


REGARDING TUNING for the particular "sound character" you are after:

The Audiofrog GB subs are fully capable of providing what _I think_ you're after. Like others, I too believe that it comes down to proper tuning and integration with the midbass, and the entire loudspeaker system in general.

Kick drum and acoustic string bass snap and detail with fast transients and dynamics comes from proper low frequency integration with the upper mids and treble. If you want that fast, detailed, articulate "bass", the above is what you need to concentrate on. Having said all that...there could be another issue...



Have you tried changing the orientation or physical location of the subwoofer and/or enclosure??? If it's a rear, under-seat truck enclosure, have you tried up-firing, down-firing, or changing the subwoofer's location in the box from one side to the other???...more towards the Left Center, or Right Center, or extreme Left, or Right?

Subwoofer frequencies in a vehicle operate in a completely pressure-based manner, and you may have a modal issue _at the listening position_ that cannot be completely fixed or overcome by typical tuning methods. The mode can be either a cancellation null or additive peak/boost and will be directly related to the transfer function and boundary-loading of the vehicle, and the subwoofer's position within the vehicle.

As a test, just try setting the subwoofer box on top of the rear seat with the subwoofer on the opposite side of the vehicle. FYI, I believe that the subwoofer placement that Jim Becker settled on in his Dodge RAM (partly due to problematic modes) was the front passenger footwell.

Only by moving the subwoofer's physical location (or one or both of the midbass drivers) can the mode be "relocated" to another area within the vehicle.

If you've installed a lot of different systems in a lot of different vehicles, you will discover that with ANY given install, you can never fix the response in a few particular frequency ranges unless the physical speaker and/or subwoofer locations are changed. And then you'll wind up causing at least a few issues in other areas. 

Just my layman's .02

Carry on...


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## JMikeK (Jan 2, 2019)

dgage said:


> Wouldn’t necessarily agree with this. Many aspects cross over greatly but they are also completely different environments with different goals/focuses.


There are certainly some super-clued home audio guys, but I say car audio guys are better because there is such a challenge to make a car sound good where as home audio guys have it so easy many end up with crazy **** like $5k speaker cables suspended exactly 3 inches off the floor because they ran out of substantive things to fix pretty quick. Many also eschew tuning in favor of extremely expensive speakers and amplifiers. Yes some can do that, but it doesn't make you knowledgeable. Just a rich sucker (IMO).


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Hell, it might not even be tuning.. could be install. could be the car. could be your expectations are blown out of proportion, could be you dont know what sounds good and what doesnt. i deal with all of these options on a regular basis with different people. this is why im so quick to say "hmmmmm, somethings fishy"


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> Hell, it might not even be tuning.. could be install. could be the car. could be your expectations are blown out of proportion, could be you dont know what sounds good and what doesnt. i deal with all of these options on a regular basis with different people. this is why im so quick to say "hmmmmm, somethings fishy"


I agree. And the cab of a truck sucks when it comes to getting really good bass in it. I've done systems in 5 trucks so far and one suv and the suv was so much easier. And I'm also a big fan of building a test box to move around the vehicle even if it's with a dinky 8" sub in a small sealed box. Yes that sealed 8" is probably gonna suck but there's a pretty good chance that the spot that 8" sucks the least is where something more beefy and larger is gonna perform its best.


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## soco_canyon (Jul 27, 2019)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*



SkizeR said:


> and this is reason #85 of why i am so over dealing with hobbyists. Maybe its a good thing for me that this forum will be dead soon.


What forum would you suggest for hobbyists. Seems like Do It Yourself Mobile Audio Dot Com Forums would be that place but I'm new here.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*



soco_canyon said:


> What forum would you suggest for hobbyists. Seems like Do It Yourself Mobile Audio Dot Com Forums would be that place but I'm new here.


www.caraudiojunkies.com

I have a feeling there's going to be a mass exodus to that forum. The owner is a super nice guy too.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*



soco_canyon said:


> What forum would you suggest for hobbyists. Seems like Do It Yourself Mobile Audio Dot Com Forums would be that place but I'm new here.


here. but im 2 seconds away from having a mod perma-ban me for my own mental health


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

drop1 said:


> I'm looking for the most detailed 10" sub that I can fit under my rear seat. I don't need massive output. Something that can run at 120db and stay musical is what I'm after. I'm particularly interested in its performance between 60 and 120 hz. That need to be smooth and musical.
> 
> I believe it can only be 6.5" deep too unfortually.


I think you may be looking for a sub with a low Le. Some of those subs that Oscar is testing are low Le (inductance) drivers. Just compare the Le measurements for the subs you like and see which ones are lower. Low Le subs tend to be "quicker" (produce more midbass more accurately). Of course, you need to look at group delay of the final sub/box combo, lower is better (less "blurring" between different frequencies). So, model some low Le subs in WinISD and let us know what you decide.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*



SkizeR said:


> and this is reason #85 of why i am so over dealing with hobbyists. Maybe its a good thing for me that this forum will be dead soon.


Since you make a living serving hobbyists, you might be in trouble.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

drop1 said:


> I'm looking for the most detailed 10" sub that I can fit under my rear seat. I don't need massive output. Something that can run at 120db and stay musical is what I'm after. I'm particularly interested in its performance between 60 and 120 hz. That need to be smooth and musical.
> 
> I believe it can only be 6.5" deep too unfortually.


Also, as others have mentioned, try different positions in the vehicle, nulls can REALLY screw with sub and midbass. Try this first. Just move the sub and box around on the seat, in the floor, wherever you can put it and see if your problem goes away.
My subs are 12+ decibels quieter in the back seat versus in the hatch, and the really low frequencies (<30 hz) aren't affected, much. 2 12's with 1800-ish watts each sound like 6x9 with 50 watts each, when in the wrong location.


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

I'm surprised no one spoke anything about T/S parameters in detail to compare some sub suggestions and such: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdQ3mLU5zBE

Two subs with exact same frequency response curve will sound different because of differences in their electrical properties. Fast subs have lower inductance (mH) values. Some folks people here may say they can't hear the difference and I'm not going to say they're lying. Some people here can't hear 16khz, doesn't mean it's not there. =)

As others have mentioned, getting the sub and the midbass dialed in and working together in phase plays a huge role. Judging from his various posts, Drop1 is experienced enough to most likely get this part right so it could be something else. But without seeing his measurements or hearing his car. No one will know for sure.

Stay calm guys. It's just all fun. No one needs to get flamed.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

tonynca said:


> I'm surprised no one spoke anything about T/S parameters in detail to compare some sub suggestions and such: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdQ3mLU5zBE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think some people got mad when drop1 said an AudioFrog sub wasn't meeting his needs.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> I think some people got mad when drop1 said an AudioFrog sub wasn't meeting his needs.


brand name has nothing to do with it. Its when the meaningless adjectives start getting thrown around to back ones own knowledge is where i personally draw a line. especially when i can tell from previous threads/posts that something doesnt seem right. the first thing that goes through my head is fix the problem instead of making up a solution. again, after dealing with this stuff day in and day out and having used i think every single sub mentioned in this thread, i can guarantee the equipment isnt the problem. It almost never is.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

tonynca said:


> Two subs with exact same frequency response curve will sound different because of differences in their electrical properties. Fast subs have lower inductance (mH) values. Some folks people here may say they can't hear the difference and I'm not going to say they're lying. Some people here can't hear 16khz, doesn't mean it's not there. =)


I don’t buy this as a reason, at least the low vs high inductance subs. And I don’t buy “fast sub”. In my home theater, I used to use one of the cleanest, lowest distortion subs on the market in the 18” TC Sounds LMS-5400. As a matter of fact, some didn’t like the sound because it was too clean, not enough distortion. Some people just get used to a little more distortion in their speakers. 

Fast forward to today and I offer home theater subwoofers and I use a SI HST-18 and HS-24 subs, which are high inductance subs. I use a single, simple DSP entry to address the inductance hump and have flat response (ground plane testing in a field) from 14-180Hz for the HST-18 and 14-180Hz for the HS-24. In-room the 18 is flat to 10Hz and the 24 is flat to 7Hz though flat is subjective since the room response starts to enter. But regardless, I’ve used a low inductance sub (LMS-5400) and high-inductance subs and the distortion and first-order harmonics are the primary differentiators. Each of these subs breeze through complex passages such as that with bass notes very close to one another or abrupt bass notes that start and stop quickly. And the 24 is a perfectly “fast” subwoofer since a 70lb magnet-motor can move a 1.5lb cone pretty damn easily, it’s simple physics.


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

*Most detailed 10&quot; sub*



dgage said:


> I don’t buy this as a reason, at least the low vs high inductance subs. And I don’t buy “fast sub”. In my home theater, I used to use one of the cleanest, lowest distortion subs on the market in the 18” TC Sounds LMS-5400. As a matter of fact, some didn’t like the sound because it was too clean, not enough distortion. Some people just get used to a little more distortion in their speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> Fast forward to today and I offer home theater subwoofers and I use a SI HST-18 and HS-24 subs, which are high inductance subs. I use a single, simple DSP entry to address the inductance hump and have flat response (ground plane testing in a field) from 14-180Hz for the HST-18 and 14-180Hz for the HS-24. In-room the 18 is flat to 10Hz and the 24 is flat to 7Hz though flat is subjective since the room response starts to enter. But regardless, I’ve used a low inductance sub (LMS-5400) and high-inductance subs and the distortion and first-order harmonics are the primary differentiators. Each of these subs breeze through complex passages such as that with bass notes very close to one another or abrupt bass notes that start and stop quickly. And the 24 is a perfectly “fast” subwoofer since a 70lb magnet-motor can move a 1.5lb cone pretty damn easily, it’s simple physics.




Could you give us a bit more detail on how they were wired? Series or parallel? Which sub had the low inductance?

Judging from the subs you posted. I think their inductance are pretty similar:























Not sure if you have a GB12D2 laying around where you could test in a box vs those subs you have. Level match them and listen to some psytrance or fast drum sessions.










0.33mH is pretty low inductance in my opinion.

I do agree with you that distortion a differentiating factor and it is actually preferred for some folks. Sub harmonics are pleasing to the ears, but that is a matter of taste.

Bonus: "Dog blood - 4 mind" Check out this song. It has some pretty fast-acting sub-notes that may be a good song to test for transients response. It also plays pretty low so it's a good work out for subs.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*

tonynca - I’m not trying to argue or go back and forth. I know we’re both just trying to help the Op understand why he thinks his sub doesn’t sound good. So please don’t think I’m attacking you or anything like that as i’m definitely not.



tonynca said:


> Judging from the subs you posted. I think their inductance are pretty similar:


Haha, good catch. Well look at that, the LMS-5400 isn’t a low-inductance driver, yet I remember it being referred to as a low-inductance driver on a AVS, which is why it was “so clean and free of distortion.” So it wasn’t a low inductance driver but had the reputation of being one of the finest subwoofers ever made. It certainly wasn’t slow. Then again, like the HST and HS subs, it had a very strong magnet with a high BL, those values were within a point of each other. BL could contribute to a fast sub but that sort of depends on how heavy the cone is made as well as a few other factors.



tonynca said:


> Fast subs have lower inductance (mH) values.


Which is why I don’t think inductance, by itself has any real say in the matter as design decisions lead to the T/S parameters. Stereo Integrity (Nick) by and large designs higher inductance drivers yet his subs sound very good. Other designers go a different direction as there are trade-offs with each design decision. We can’t cherry pick a single value and say it will sound this or that.

You mention fast subs have lower inductance, which you then pointed out the Audiofrog GB12 is a low inductance driver. I’m not putting words in your mouth as it was others such as the OP, who felt the Audiofrog was slow. Again, I don’t think we can just look at the inductance profile of a sub and determine how it might sound.

Which leads to me thinking the issue is with the install, the vehicle, or the signal (DSP). Many people have obviously had very good results with the Audiofrog subs. Step 1 is to make sure the sub is in an optimal enclosure. Then try to move around as was suggested though that would help more with the midbass integration as the lower bass waves are too long for movement within a car to matter much. Phase with the midbass should be checked. And he system should be tuned by an expert. Only after those are exhausted would I consider the equipment to be an issue since these are quality components.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*

And I do have some subs I could test with though they’d have to be close-mic tested since they’d be in a room (proper sub testing would be done ground-plane in a field). The primary issue is time to build optimal boxes for each though it might be an interesting test. Here are subs I have in my possession. But to me, the subs will sound more similar than different. 

AF GB10 sub
SI BM MK V
SI RM-12
SI RM-15
SI HST-18
SI HS-24


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*



dgage said:


> tonynca - I’m not trying to argue or go back and forth. I know we’re both just trying to help the Op understand why he thinks his sub doesn’t sound good. So please don’t think I’m attacking you or anything like that as i’m definitely not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never thought of you as attacking me or anything. I was just trying to work out the numbers and double-check. 

I'm just speaking from experience of my own observations and long listening sessions. When I switched to lower inductance subs and I did notice the difference in transient response. You know the drill, same response curve, etc. I swapped the subs in and out of the car and did my fair share of testing. 

If you think about it, most people are feeding their subwoofers like 500-1000w. The motors in these subwoofers are clearly going to be able to move a flimsy 100-200g woofer cone. It's not like you need to move the cone 10000 cycles per second. It's a mere 20-100 cycles per second. Just because a cone is lighter doesn't mean it's going to move faster than the heavier cone because the motor is fully capable of accelerating the cone. You should be thinking electrically, how fast is this change being made?

Inductors are reluctant to alter current flow (AC), they like to hold the current constant. The higher the inductance, the longer it'll hold on to the current before initiating the current change (AC). So higher inductance indicates that it is slower to respond to the change being fed to it by the amplifier. 

If you would like more detailed information, check out this Adire's tech PDF: http://www.diy-audio.narod.ru/litr/WooferSpeed.pdf



dgage said:


> And I do have some subs I could test with though they’d have to be close-mic tested since they’d be in a room (proper sub testing would be done ground-plane in a field). The primary issue is time to build optimal boxes for each though it might be an interesting test. Here are subs I have in my possession. But to me, the subs will sound more similar than different.
> 
> AF GB10 sub
> SI BM MK V
> ...


Nice collection. You don't have to build ideal boxes for every one of them. I would just use adapter rings and put them all in a 1.5cu ft box for testing. Play them at moderate levels and match them to a nice target curve. Take notes during your test so you remember what they sound like.

Having a proper box is great for amp and output efficiency but for testing purposes, if you listen to moderate volume, it should be sufficient for comparison.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Come on guys, let's be real here. Anyone competing or building an SQL build doesn't even need a subwoofer. 

For a musical sub, I prefer shallows. JL 10TW1's in my truck sound beautiful, and can keep up with metal. But sound (like all things) is subjective to the listener.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I don't have all the facts but at first review, it sounds to me like the sub under the seat may be nulling out. 



Despite all this yibber-yabber of 3 pages, I've not seen one REW response graph.


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

I ran the Illusion C10XL for a good while and it had a great throughout the 80Hz and below sub-range. If that one's too deep for your install location, you may check out the C10, which as a rear-mounting depth of only 3".


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Lanson said:


> Despite all this yibber-yabber of 3 pages, I've not seen one REW response graph.


this


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## PaperLion (Aug 15, 2019)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Come on guys, let's be real here. Anyone competing or building an SQL build doesn't even need a subwoofer.
> 
> For a musical sub, I prefer shallows. JL 10TW1's in my truck sound beautiful, and can keep up with metal. But sound (like all things) is subjective to the listener.


Nothing to do with brand at all but the shallow comment caught my eye because I've recently installed a TW5 13.5" ultra shallow mount sub in a very small sealed enclosure in my cars spare tire well. I was really skeptical about it but my desired install space required something very thin. It turned out much much better than expected.

My question is: if you can get what sounds to me like a truly beautiful and powerful speaker that thin, why bother with deep speakers? I wish I had other systems to compare it with. Maybe I need to get out more.

I had 1 10" TW1 and then tried 2 8" TW3s in the same car in the months leading up to this, and the single TW5 absolutely crushes those previous setups. Not even close to the same output or depth. Granted, it's able to handle and is getting more power and I've added a preamp and DSP so it's not a fair fight. It's also farther towards the rear than the other subs were.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

PaperLion said:


> Nothing to do with brand at all but the shallow comment caught my eye because I've recently installed a TW5 13.5" ultra shallow mount sub in a very small sealed enclosure in my cars spare tire well. I was really skeptical about it but my desired install space required something very thin. It turned out much much better than expected.
> 
> My question is: if you can get what sounds to me like a truly beautiful and powerful speaker that thin, why bother with deep speakers? I wish I had other systems to compare it with. Maybe I need to get out more.
> 
> I had 1 10" TW1 and then tried 2 8" TW3s in the same car in the months leading up to this, and the single TW5 absolutely crushes those previous setups. Not even close to the same output or depth. Granted, it's able to handle and is getting more power and I've added a preamp and DSP so it's not a fair fight. It's also farther towards the rear than the other subs were.


Yep. Going to run two of those (13TW5s) in my ZO6.


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

Low inductance is good, but alone it is irrelevant. One needs to look at the Le : DCR ratio. If you look at Le/DCR, the lower the better. If you look at DCR/Le, the higher the better. And of course that is just a small part of the picture.

I think the JBL WGTi series still reign supreme in that respect, which is why I think (in part) why they can play bass-midbass so clean and integrate to nicely.

DCR/Le is approximately 12.4.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

PaperLion said:


> My question is: if you can get what sounds to me like a truly beautiful and powerful speaker that thin, why bother with deep speakers? I wish I had other systems to compare it with. Maybe I need to get out more.


In a word, output. The 13TW5 is limited by its ~11mm of excursion, which is just over half of the excursion of the AF GB12. Shallow subs are a design decision but that design has limitations. But as you say, if the JL 13TW5 fits your needs then go for it. The only other reason not to go with a TW5 or similar is cost, since it is a specialty sub with specialty supply/demand.

And here is a post where I tested a JL 12TW3 vs the SI BM MK V. Everything was pretty similar between the two except the BM didn’t need as large an enclosure.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...ow-sub-comparison-jl-12tw3-vs-si-bm-mk-v.html


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Ok let me be more clear since this got way out of hand way too fast.

I am stuck with an under the seat box. 
I have no impact issues. 

The frogs are not giving me what I want in the defined requirements.
I'm looking for a super low distortion sub that is no more than 6.5 inches deep and can work from .6 to 2 cubes sealed or ported I dont really care though I'm leaning on sealed as the box placement has a tendency to make things sound bloated. 
The frogs cam give me most of this crossed low, like 52 hz low but I'm wanting something that will play higher, better. It's that simple.
The more non aggressive the sound the better. 

I know dick about ts parameters. 10 years ago I was waist deep in the science portion of car audio but those days are long gone and mostly forgotten.

And sub/mid alignment and impact is by far the easiest part of car sq in my opinion. 
Decent timing with a good crossover point is 99 percent of that battle. You can figure this out in under a minute.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

My Dayton ho10 suggestion still stands. Or a pair of idq10's. If you were to get the Dayton subs the d4 version would work better in your box if sealed than the single 4 because of how it models. The d4 needs .5-.6 sealed for each sub. The single 4 version you could drop right in and be about right on ported specs (.7 tuned to 30hz for each single 4 is what the single 4 needs). Or take up space in the box to run them sealed in about .35ish each sub.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Jroo said:


> Lanson said:
> 
> 
> > Despite all this yibber-yabber of 3 pages, I've not seen one REW response graph.
> ...


I posted eqed vs non eqed in anothe thread.

Here is the pic.

And I didnt post them intentionally. With posting graphs comes all sorts of "tuning advice". 
I have no issues tuning. I have issues with my subs not being able to play high and sound good at the same time. I like to run my subs a little hot and a little high. Between 10 and 20 db over the mids depending on music type but usually settle for about plus 15 across the board.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I think I remember you saying you had .6 per sub? What's the tuning? And without looking I can tell that's way too small for your current subs.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I think I remember you saying you had .6 per sub? What's the tuning? And without looking I can tell that's way too small for your current subs.


I was wrong. Its 2.1 cubes ported to 36 hz. 
I dont know if that's 2.1 per sub or total. The box is over 4 ft long but has a large rectangle port.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

drop1 said:


> Hillbilly SQ said:
> 
> 
> > I think I remember you saying you had .6 per sub? What's the tuning? And without looking I can tell that's way too small for your current subs.
> ...


They have another box available for a different truck that also fits my truck. 
Its .6 per sub sealed. I considered trying that box as its inexpensive ($200) and truly sealed. 
I could custom build but I seriously doubt any box is going to give me what I'm wanting. It's a while different type of sound. Sound more like room bass than car bass. Think morel ultimo, higher end focal subs, old image dynamics.
That kind of open sounding bass.


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## SloVic (Oct 1, 2016)

Are the subwoofers firing up into the seat and if so how close is the cone to the seat bottom? 

I remember Andy bringing up some reasons he was against infinite baffle sub set ups. One point he stated was that the seats will act as a lowpass filter if the cone is to close, chose to mount mine with the magnet facing the seat for that very reason. Maybe you are experiencing something similar.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

SloVic said:


> Are the subwoofers firing up into the seat and if so how close is the cone to the seat bottom?
> 
> I remember Andy bringing up some reasons he was against infinite baffle sub set ups. One point he stated was that the seats will act as a lowpass filter if the cone is to close, chose to mount mine with the magnet facing the seat for that very reason. Maybe you are experiencing something similar.


They are down firing 1.75 inches off the floor. 

The home audio guys say subs need either 1/4th or 1/2 the subs diameter from the floor to sound correct. I don't remember exactly. It's been years since I was researching that. Not sure of the why but I remember reading that.


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*



SkizeR said:


> and this is reason #85 of why i am so over dealing with hobbyists. Maybe its a good thing for me that this forum will be dead soon.


SkizeR, I am a Dentist by trade. I encounter ignorant, uneducated people on a daily basis. Its my job to educate them. The same people with the same bleeding gums and rotting teeth come back every six months. I just smile, pat them on the shoulder and tell them that they will eventually get it right. Its the patients that "Get It" that keeps me coming back to work each day. Just smile at the ones that are hopeless and move on. By the way, you have been very instrumental in getting my systems to where they are today. I always read your posts and look over your build logs. My car audio systems are now 100% better because of posters like you. Just pat them on the shoulder, then move on to the ones who "Get IT". Thank you so much for being here.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

drop1 said:


> They are down firing 1.75 inches off the floor.
> 
> The home audio guys say subs need either 1/4th or 1/2 the subs diameter from the floor to sound correct. I don't remember exactly. It's been years since I was researching that. Not sure of the why but I remember reading that.


I’ve built down-firing 18” and 24” sealed sub with 3” space to the floor so you should be fine though my guess is the floor of the truck is not flat so you’ll get some negative phase interactions.

My suggestion might be to switch to sealed subs though to get the SPL you want, you’ll likely need 4 10s or 4 small-enclosure 12s such as the SI BM MK V. Maybe it is the character of the ported enclosure you don’t like or maybe the ported enclosure is having phase issues. Sealed is less complex to design, build, and tune so it might be worth giving a shot.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

dgage said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > They are down firing 1.75 inches off the floor.
> ...


Actually, in the new fords the floor is perfectly flat from on side to the other. Rather nice actually.

I know what you're talking about though. 
My old truck had the large hump and caused bad phase interactions. It was an 06 f150.
I kid you not when I say it sounded better with one sub wired out of phase . There were even others in the "business" here that noted this. 
I'm definilty not dealing with anything like that. 

Looks like my helpers been dropping food on the floor again ?


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## compuwiz1937 (Jun 5, 2017)

I guess I can't add a whole lot to this being an amateur hobbyist and all but I love my Audiofrog subwoofers in sealed enclosures. I've done multiple ported subwoofers and I haven't liked a single one of them. Maybe I can't EQ them properly but I've tried and tried. Sealed sounds so much better for music to me, ported for home theater.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

compuwiz1937 said:


> I guess I can't add a whole lot to this being an amateur hobbyist and all but I love my Audiofrog subwoofers in sealed enclosures. I've done multiple ported subwoofers and I haven't liked a single one of them. Maybe I can't EQ them properly but I've tried and tried. Sealed sounds so much better for music to me, ported for home theater.


Ported is great if the port itself is tuned right. Port placement is often overlooked and has a big impact on the timing and feel. A port in the wrong place can hurt things as much as it helps. I despise port delay (group delay) with a passion. 
The fox boxes are actually rather ok compared to most pre fab boxes . I had an old jl stealth box that always sounded out of time no matter how in time the sub actually was.
Youd get the initial attack fine then the bottom would sound delayed. I dj'd for over 20 years. Ultimately it was my job to sync songs together and you did this by syncing kick drums of 2 tracks. This has made me super sensitive to any kind of delay. 
With sealed you dont have to worry about that at all. Just get your sub in phase and on time with a good crossover point and your good to go. 
With the right box and placement you should barely even need eq. Phase and level are most of the battle.


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## OCD66 (Apr 2, 2017)

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...ll-gallery/368626-audiomobile-evo-2410-a.html


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*



Stycker said:


> SkizeR, I am a Dentist by trade. I encounter ignorant, uneducated people on a daily basis. Its my job to educate them. The same people with the same bleeding gums and rotting teeth come back every six months. I just smile, pat them on the shoulder and tell them that they will eventually get it right. Its the patients that "Get It" that keeps me coming back to work each day. Just smile at the ones that are hopeless and move on. By the way, you have been very instrumental in getting my systems to where they are today. I always read your posts and look over your build logs. My car audio systems are now 100% better because of posters like you. Just pat them on the shoulder, then move on to the ones who "Get IT". Thank you so much for being here.


I second this and well said. I also deal people on a daily basis. I have over 70 people working under me who count on me doing my job and let me say dealing with all their personalities and problems is very tiring. I think he’s just getting a little burnt out burning the candle at both ends for so long running two business and he’s everywhere on social media. Honestly I don’t know how he does it.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

drop1 said:


> Ported is great if the port itself is tuned right. Port placement is often overlooked and has a big impact on the timing and feel. A port in the wrong place can hurt things as much as it helps. I despise port delay (group delay) with a passion.
> The fox boxes are actually rather ok compared to most pre fab boxes . I had an old jl stealth box that always sounded out of time no matter how in time the sub actually was.
> Youd get the initial attack fine then the bottom would sound delayed. I dj'd for over 20 years. Ultimately it was my job to sync songs together and you did this by syncing kick drums of 2 tracks. This has made me super sensitive to any kind of delay.
> With sealed you dont have to worry about that at all. Just get your sub in phase and on time with a good crossover point and your good to go.
> With the right box and placement you should barely even need eq. Phase and level are most of the battle.


Drop1, very subjective I know but i’ve been experimenting with this and I’m finding that if done right and tuned low a ported box can sound exactly like a sealed box with DSP intervention but with more output and less distortion through better control over cone excursion.


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## PaperLion (Aug 15, 2019)

Would think sealed boxes might have more control all things being equal because the back wave is contained and pushes on the cone from behind, dampening it.


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## JMikeK (Jan 2, 2019)

PaperLion said:


> Would think sealed boxes might have more control all things being equal because the back wave is contained and pushes on the cone from behind, dampening it.


Sealed does do that, although technically it's not damping, it is an air spring, but otherwise yeah.

Ported, around the tuning frequency operates against the motion of the cone more forcefully because the air waves are opposite the cone's motion inside the box (air is rarefied when the cone is moving out and compressed when the cone is moving back due to port resonance rather than just the location of the woofer). This is how port tuning works and it can be very effective at controlling excursion around the tuning frequency:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOgaHqeixI

Note if you tune low, you'll get better mechanical power handling than sealed. If you tune higher (like 40 Hz), well that's what subsonic filters are for.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

drop1 said:


> Ported is great if the port itself is tuned right. Port placement is often overlooked and has a big impact on the timing and feel. A port in the wrong place can hurt things as much as it helps. I despise port delay (group delay) with a passion.
> The fox boxes are actually rather ok compared to most pre fab boxes . I had an old jl stealth box that always sounded out of time no matter how in time the sub actually was.
> Youd get the initial attack fine then the bottom would sound delayed. I dj'd for over 20 years. Ultimately it was my job to sync songs together and you did this by syncing kick drums of 2 tracks. This has made me super sensitive to any kind of delay.
> With sealed you dont have to worry about that at all. Just get your sub in phase and on time with a good crossover point and your good to go.
> With the right box and placement you should barely even need eq. Phase and level are most of the battle.


Yep. I didn’t have time to get into all of that but you understand. If I were you, I’d grab 4 10s that will fit in the airspace you have available and power them appropriately. You should be good to go then. My guess is the port tuning and/or location is causing the problem. Ported can be nice but it definitely isn’t as stupid easy as sealed. Then again, my grandpappy said if you want something nice, you have to work for it. Lol!


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

JCsAudio said:


> Drop1, very subjective I know but i’ve been experimenting with this and I’m finding that if done right and tuned low a ported box can sound exactly like a sealed box with DSP intervention but with more output and less distortion through better control over cone excursion.


True. I think one issue here is the relatively high tuning of 37 Hz. That seems awful high to me.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

dgage said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > Ported is great if the port itself is tuned right. Port placement is often overlooked and has a big impact on the timing and feel. A port in the wrong place can hurt things as much as it helps. I despise port delay (group delay) with a passion.
> ...


I have no output issues with the port plugged. You really think I would have output issues with 2 frog gb 10 subs on a jl 1200/1? I don't think I would but I could be wrong.


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

dgage said:


> True. I think one issue here is the relatively high tuning of 37 Hz. That seems awful high to me.


It all depends on what kind of music you listen to. A lot of the dual-18 subwoofer systems used in huge concerts are tuned right around this frequency. Obviously if you listen to a lot of music with artificial bass notes below 35-40Hz, then lower tuning will reach a lot lower, but "typical" rock/country/metal/acoustical that is played with drums/bass guitar as the bottom-anchor has little content below 40Hz. It's there, don't get me wrong, but compared to the content above 50Hz, it's quite a bit lower in dB magnitude. I've RTA'd a lot of music where the above condition (drums/bass guitar) dominate the bottom-end, and the majority of the spectral energy is contained above 40Hz, give or take. This is for flat-equalized response. Of course if you boost the crap out of the bass it will register lower on RTA, but that is being raised in dB manually, as the recording will actually have it a lot lower.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Oscar said:


> It all depends on what kind of music you listen to. A lot of the dual-18 subwoofer systems used in huge concerts are tuned right around this frequency. Obviously if you listen to a lot of music with artificial bass notes below 35-40Hz, then lower tuning will reach a lot lower, but "typical" rock/country/metal/acoustical that is played with drums/bass guitar as the bottom-anchor has little content below 40Hz. It's there, don't get me wrong, but compared to the content above 50Hz, it's quite a bit lower in dB magnitude. I've RTA'd a lot of music where the above condition (drums/bass guitar) dominate the bottom-end, and the majority of the spectral energy is contained above 40Hz, give or take. This is for flat-equalized response. Of course if you boost the crap out of the bass it will register lower on RTA, but that is being raised in dB manually, as the recording will actually have it a lot lower.


I have extensive experience with 24” subs that are flat down to 6-7Hz in-room at over 105dB. To me, 37Hz is way too high since a driver unloads below the port tuning frequency. Essentially, he has little output below 35Hz. I’m definitely not normal but to me there is too much MUSIC content below 35Hz.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

drop1 said:


> I have no output issues with the port plugged. You really think I would have output issues with 2 frog gb 10 subs on a jl 1200/1? I don't think I would but I could be wrong.


With the port plugged, you have turned the enclosure into a sealed enclosure with too much airspace. Since a subwoofer uses a sealed enclosure, also called acoustic suspension, to help control excursion, you have to worry about too much power causing over-excursion and destroying the subwoofer. So if you move forward, you could go with your current enclosure with ports plugged but put some rigid foam or similar to take up excess volume in the enclosure. This way you’d at least be able to use your current enclosure with the subs you have to determine if they truly would meet your output desires. That is the easy button and definitely one I’d start with. And if you find you do need more output, then you can rebuild the enclosure for 4 subs.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

dgage said:


> True. I think one issue here is the relatively high tuning of 37 Hz. That seems awful high to me.


Agree, 37 Hz is a bit too high in my opinion when keeping the perceived sound qaulity up is the goal. With cabin gain around 45-50 Hz I would think he’s going to have a tough time integrating that with the mids and group delay will be more of a factor too. Andy recommends 33 Hz and I like even lower, like 30-31 Hz. A 37 Hz tune would be good for more SPL though if that is the goal. 

He should verify his tune by playing a test tone at low volume from 30 Hz through and beyond the estimated tuning frequency while gently placing his finger on the cone. The point where the woofer moves the least (almost stops) is his actual tuning frequency. I found pre fabricated boxes to have higher tuning frequencies than the manufacture stated in the past, plus these boxes can be leaky and constructed with thinner material that resonates and colors the sound. People don’t understand how important it is to have a tightly sealed ported box because it has a big hole in it. It’s more important than a sealed box. The pressures created in a ported box can be quite big and any small leaks degrades that.


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

Drop1: if you are looking for more "upper bass" from your sub, I think that you should go sealed since it has 12db/oct roll-off compared to ported with 24db/oct roll-off.
You might swap your down-fire enclosure to classic enclosure firing to the back of your trunk


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

LBaudio said:


> Drop1: if you are looking for more "upper bass" from your sub, I think that you should go sealed since it has 12db/oct roll-off compared to ported with 24db/oct roll-off.
> You might swap your down-fire enclosure to classic enclosure firing to the back of your trunk


I'm in a truck. Theres no room fo do anything but down fire or, I could forward faces a few w78's. They would barely fit but I could fit them. I've had a pair before and they were nice.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

drop1 said:


> I'm in a truck. Theres no room fo do anything but down fire or, I could forward faces a few w78's. They would barely fit but I could fit them. I've had a pair before and they were nice.


I don't recall you model truck, but I have been in several truck with 8's front firing under the rear seat and they all sounded really good. I have not heard them, but lately on social media I have also seen several guys using multiple 6.5 subs firing to the front in a truck and the reviews were very good. 

I wonder if a nice sealed box with a good pair of 8's would solve the sound problem you are looking for. The other benefit, you would definitely be able to have the correct size enclosure for the subs under the seat


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Jroo said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm in a truck. Theres no room fo do anything but down fire or, I could forward faces a few w78's. They would barely fit but I could fit them. I've had a pair before and they were nice.
> ...


Im.really considering this. My w7 8s were my favorite sub stage I've ever run closely followed by w6 v2 12s


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

That's what I've contemplated a number of times ^^^ dual or even four ported 8" subwoofers


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

chithead said:


> That's what I've contemplated a number of times ^^^ dual or even four ported 8" subwoofers


I would do either 2 ported or 4 sealed. I like large slot or rectangle ports.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

drop1 said:


> I would do either 2 ported or 4 sealed. I like large slot or rectangle ports.


That was one of my favorite setups yet, pair of Sundown Audio SA-8 v1.5 in a 1 cube slot ported enclosure tuned to 32Hz. Didn't have much power available at the time, but the 200 watts to each was pure musical bliss. 

Thought about doing something similar with their SD-3 8" subwoofers, but with four of them in 2.5 cubes, tuned to 29Hz


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

chithead said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > I would do either 2 ported or 4 sealed. I like large slot or rectangle ports.
> ...


I ran my w7 8s off a jl flash 250/1. Thise 250 watts could make my roof flex inches on command .

The w7 8s are some fantastic subs. They could go loud and play low. Blended amazingly and could drop down so smoothly in a pure sq setting as well. I am not as fond at the larger w7 drivers. They sound unnaturally sharp to me.


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## EmptyKim (Jun 17, 2010)

drop1 said:


> I ran my w7 8s off a jl flash 250/1. Thise 250 watts could make my roof flex inches on command .
> 
> The w7 8s are some fantastic subs. They could go loud and play low. Blended amazingly and could drop down so smoothly in a pure sq setting as well. I am not as fond at the larger w7 drivers. They sound unnaturally sharp to me.


Sounds like you discovered (or re-discovered) your solution.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

drop1 said:


> I'm looking for the most detailed 10" sub that I can fit under my rear seat. I don't need massive output. Something that can run at 120db and stay musical is what I'm after. I'm particularly interested in its performance between 60 and 120 hz. That need to be smooth and musical.
> 
> I believe it can only be 6.5" deep too unfortually.


Going back to the OP...

I am not sure what ^"most detailed"^ means?
Usually it is lower end frequency that is defined as adding musical detail.

Most subs play to a few hundred Hz, and many spew out harmonics that are in the hundreds of Hz. Aiming in the 60-120 Hz range, to me, indicates that you probably want low distortion... or that sub may be standing out... or you want a box that aids in lowering distortion?




LBaudio said:


> Drop1: if you are looking for more "upper bass" from your sub, I think that you should go sealed since it has 12db/oct roll-off compared to ported with 24db/oct roll-off.
> You might swap your down-fire enclosure to classic enclosure firing to the back of your trunk


Is the 12dB/octave on the high frequency end? (Where the OP wants the 60-120 Hz focus?)


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Holmz said:


> I am not sure what ^"most detailed"^ means?


de·tailed
/dəˈtāld,ˈdēˌtāld/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
having many details or facts; showing attention to detail.


detail noun
de·​tail | \ di-ˈtāl , ˈdē-ˌtāl \
Definition of detail (Entry 1 of 2)
1: extended treatment of or attention to particular items



he wants the most detailed but doesnt like the w7's because theyre too "sharp"...............my understanding of the definitions of those words is that they would "sound" very similar..? Im not even sure how a sub could sound "sharp" (again, this is why using subjective terms is really stupid). ugh, this thread should not be this long lol.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> de·tailed
> /dəˈtāld,ˈdēˌtāld/
> Learn to pronounce
> adjective
> ...


Well I figured de-tailed was not like bobbing a cats tail 

"Sharp" could possibly be due to higher order harmonics?

I would be personally more prone to using terms like THD and group delay, as descriptors of what to want or what to avoid.

And for thread length... the OP said "fit under a seat", and then we have mention of 18 and 24" subwoofers. Those posts did have relevance to the overall discussion... however, unless the OP has a 60" waist and bench seat, then only the traditional concepts of playing lower than that 37 Hz seem to apply??


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

If a W7 sounds "sharp", then IMO its a build / install issue. That sub has no upper frequency distortion I could hear, in the boxes I've heard it in. 



Anyway, I do see you put a response plot up. It didn't look like a response I'd expect to see if I were doing a subwoofer sweep without crossovers. That's what I would expect. Also when doing a sweep (vs the RTA process), you can get an impression of distortion figures. It can sometimes be hard to separate distortion of the sub from distortions caused by, say, the doors rattling, but the response plot + distortion plot should lay some clues down. Since you're hoping for a response from the sub that is actually more commonly associated with MIDBASS frequencies, we're also going to want to look at the total system response created between the midbass and the sub. This measurement sweep with both running (and your mic placed where your ears are approximately) should show if there are any nulls that are screwing up the response you hear. With midbass in the doors and the sub much closer under your chair, I would expect issues right off the bat, issues that time alignment efforts could resolve. But there's probably more to the story besides just the sub's blending.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Holmz said:


> And for thread length... the OP said "fit under a seat", and then we have mention of 18 and 24" subwoofers. Those posts did have relevance to the overall discussion... however, unless the OP has a 60" waist and bench seat, then only the traditional concepts of playing lower than that 37 Hz seem to apply??


Do you think 37 Hz is a proper port tune based on his descriptors when most cars have cabin gain just a little above that? Since I'm the one who mentioned the tuning was likely too high and mentioned subs I'm experienced with that play deep content.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

When I say "sharp" in relation to larger w7s its almost as if they are unnaturally detailed to me. 
The w6v2 or 3 are much better sounding subs in my opinion. They sound much more realistic. 

As far as the technical side I do not know what makes a sub sound different. I would assume cone stiffness/weight coupled with how fast the cone can change directions.

When I say change directions I don't mean frequncy. I mean the fractions of a second the actual direction change takes place. This to me is what gives most speakers their sonic signature and has a lot to do with how natural they can sound. 

If someone would explind the technical side, I'm all ears . I'd love to be able to look at Specs and be able to tell have sharp or defined a speaker can sound without demoing it.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

drop1 said:


> If someone would explind the technical side, I'm all ears . I'd love to be able to look at Specs and be able to tell have sharp or defined a speaker can sound without demoing it.


That’s why your thread is so long, besides audio not being easily described, subs specs can’t be analyzed for sonic signatures. You can look at certain specs and know what might work better in sealed, ported, or IB but even that isn’t always cut and dry.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

My shop has a fox box made for my truck.

Its sealed with .6cft.

Exactly what AF recommends. Being as the box is less than $200 I'll go with that first. If it does it for me, cool. If not ill give the w7 8s a go. I loved them in the past. My only concern is back then they were in a hatch. Never had forward facing subs in the cab with me. Should be interesting.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

dgage said:


> Do you think 37 Hz is a proper port tune based on his descriptors when most cars have cabin gain just a little above that? Since I'm the one who mentioned the tuning was likely too high and mentioned subs I'm experienced with that play deep content.


No.
I would be going for 25-30...

The 6 or 8 Hz mentioned earlier, is clearly a bit low for the average person's needs.
But in a home theatre systems it would be great.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

I wish I had shops that could do stuff like this around me.
It's not fair!


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## JMikeK (Jan 2, 2019)

Holmz said:


> No.
> I would be going for 25-30...
> 
> The 6 or 8 Hz mentioned earlier, is clearly a bit low for the average person's needs.
> But in a home theatre systems it would be great.


6 or 8 Hz wouldn't be good for anyone. SVS is known for extremely deep extension in home theaters and their low-tuned mode is 16 Hz. This requires plugging one port and changing to a different DSP mode. F3 extends to 13 Hz in this mode, which is awesome.

6-8 Hz? No offense, but citation needed. Honestly, in-car, 25 Hz tuning is a bit low for 99% of music and listeners. Better stick with 28-35 depending on the sub. Shoot, mine is tuned to 39 Hz but F3 is 33 according to JL. As an example of how nuts 8 Hz is, if I took the JL 10w6 HO and changed it from 39 Hz tuning to 8 Hz tuning, one would have to extend the port from 30" to 832". Yes the port would be 70 ft long.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

JMikeK said:


> 6 or 8 Hz wouldn't be good for anyone. SVS is known for extremely deep extension in home theaters and their low-tuned mode is 16 Hz. This requires plugging one port and changing to a different DSP mode. F3 extends to 13 Hz in this mode, which is awesome.
> 
> 6-8 Hz? No offense, but citation needed.


I've felt a pair of bm12's do 7hz in an extended cab truck. Blew my mind and it was a strange sensation. Amp was a Zero 3 iirc.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Ok. I’m not condoning that deep for a car, and many don’t go for less than 20 in a home. I was just saying that 37 seemed high. Let’s forget about the deep stuff as 9t doesn’t apply.


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## JMikeK (Jan 2, 2019)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I've felt a pair of bm12's do 7hz in an extended cab truck. Blew my mind and it was a strange sensation. Amp was a Zero 3 iirc.


I'm not that familiar with that sub, but I'm guessing this was a sealed box. It's pretty hard just physically to tune ported boxes that low.



dgage said:


> Ok. I’m not condoning that deep for a car, and many don’t go for less than 20 in a home. I was just saying that 37 seemed high. Let’s forget about the deep stuff as 9t doesn’t apply.


Yeah 37 is a little high. Pretty common though. You won't flex your body panels with that kind of tuning, but it's not inherently bad for music depending on the sub.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

JMikeK said:


> I'm not that familiar with that sub, but I'm guessing this was a sealed box. It's pretty hard just physically to tune ported boxes that low.


Yes, sealed box. It was LaserSVT's 96ish Silverado/Sierra. That was the day I got big respect for the SI BM...at least the v3. Never heard the v4 or v5 BM pushed much past a tickle.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Oh, my pair of Fi x10's were tuned mid-upper 30's. Tight clean bass all the way around even on droning gangsta rap.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

dgage said:


> Let’s forget about the deep stuff


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

So I dropped the subs into a 1.6cft box .

Audiofrog recommends .6cft each so after displacement this is pretty close.

With no eq it's just one massive spike at 40hz. 

This is after me eqing the tip off of 40 hz. It went to an almost perfect point. 
The other ported box had a much flatter response. 

I've eqed it quite a bit since that pic and flattened out the response and it fies sound a bit better. Marginally better that the other box with the port sealed.

Definilty no problems with output but i have to turn it up more than I did before so you feel it more which is the opposite of what I was wanting. 

I'm going to attempt to extend the port on the other box as much as I can. I should be able to get it down to at least 33hz. If I add some outer port I can maybe get it to 30. If that diesnt work I guess I'll change subs


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*

35-39hz isn't as bad as it sounds. Port tuning in that range has been the most musical in the vehicle with current music IME. Ultra low 25hz tunes are ok but only with certain genres. Still... it's not about the exact frequency, it's what the car presents as well. 

Either way... carry on. Should be interesting what you find with you're results 

Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

remember a port has secondary (and other harmonic) resonance points too. Not easy to model. This is one reason I always favored a big-ass port or no port at all.


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## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

You might already be tuned lower Than you think. That tool skizer recommended would tell you. I made a similar one for rew when I was doing ported boxes. Of all the 5 or so boxes I modeled and verified I was 4 to 6 hz less than was modeled.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Bayboy said:


> 35-39hz isn't as bad as it sounds. Port tuning in that range has been the most musical in the vehicle with current music IME. Ultra low 25hz tunes are ok but only with certain genres. Still... it's not about the exact frequency, it's what the car presents as well.
> 
> Either way... carry on. Should be interesting what you find with you're results
> 
> Man & Machine... Power Extreme!


The larger ported is definitely slinded better to me the more I'm listening to this sealed box. 

Sealed sounds a lot more aggresive when you get on it a little bit. 

Between the 2 the eqing is almost identical. For sq type tunes I prefer the sealed. Fir dance I prefer the ported. The sealed kicks like a mule and I like a more laid back bass.

Impact junkies would love my truck right now.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

I think my biggest issue is the subs are just too fricken close to me and worh the exception of my w7 8s I've always run 12s in ported boxes


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

drop1 said:


> I think my biggest issue is the subs are just too fricken close to me and worh the exception of my w7 8s I've always run 12s in ported boxes





That's correct as well, not much you can do about it though. Heavy delay action might help.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

A pair of IDQ10's in that sealed box might give you the laid back bass you want. My IDQ12v4 is buttery smooth with not a lot of impact in 1.4 sealed stuffed with polyfil. This is in a single cab truck with the sub firing into the passenger seat. GREAT for SQ type stuff.


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

drop1 said:


> I wish I had shops that could do stuff like this around me.
> It's not fair!


Once you decide for sure on subs, go here

https://www.mtiacoustics.com/


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

*Re: Most detailed 10&quot; sub*



dgage said:


> With the port plugged, you have turned the enclosure into a sealed enclosure with too much airspace. Since a subwoofer uses a sealed enclosure, also called acoustic suspension, to help control excursion, you have to worry about too much power causing over-excursion and destroying the subwoofer. So if you move forward, you could go with your current enclosure with ports plugged but put some rigid foam or similar to take up excess volume in the enclosure. This way you’d at least be able to use your current enclosure with the subs you have to determine if they truly would meet your output desires. That is the easy button and definitely one I’d start with. And if you find you do need more output, then you can rebuild the enclosure for 4 subs.


I second all of this.^
I see you already tried.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

drop1 said:


> With no eq it's just one massive spike at 40hz.


That sounds like you've got serious nulls above and below 40 hz and obviously a peak at 40 hz. Is there any way you could get both subs on one side of the truck?


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

ckirocz28 said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > With no eq it's just one massive spike at 40hz.
> ...


They are side by side less than an inch apart. It's just really pesky. I don't have a hump. Floor is flat.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Where are the subs in the box? Off to one side? Middle? My suggestion for you would be to build a PROPERLY SIZED SEALED test box for ONE of your subs to move around your truck. Put legs on it (long sides will accomplish this) so you can try downfire in different locations too. Something goofy is going on in there.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

drop1 said:


> They are side by side less than an inch apart. It's just really pesky. I don't have a hump. Floor is flat.


Can you fire them upward? Maybe try some differential T/A (changed from ideal to mitigate nulls) on the subs? All pass eq? There's gotta be something that'll help.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

For what it's worth, I'm quite positive the subs aren't at fault, this seems absolutely environmental; unless...there's an out of phase condition somewhere in the signal path, but that's unlikely from what you've already posted.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

This will explain most if it. 
I have been eqing around it but it explains the crazy peaks with the dsp eq by passed.

I had my truck stock stereo set flat with forscan. Well apparently it did not take.

I plugged my dsp straight into REW with all time and crossover/eq disabled. 

What you see in this pic is what it took to get it flat coming into the dsp.

I hate these ford radios with a passion. There is no way to bypass the built in amp and the aftermarket kits are garbage.

I'm about to say **** it and just slap a linkswell t style radion in here. At least it gives out a flat response with pre outs. 

Enjoy this ford factory nonsense. Look at that 50hz boost. Geez.

It didnt make it sound a whole lot better as I was already able to eq it flat but it did help some. Made eqing a WHOLE lot easier on every driver.


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## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

drop1 said:


> I wish I had shops that could do stuff like this around me.
> It's not fair!


Think that was built by:
https://www.mtiacoustics.com/
Mobile Toys located in College Station, TX. These guys built the box in my 911. They do outstanding work.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Ok. I extended the port, ultra fine tuned the ta and used the old school method of setting crossovers where you listen for the suck out and raise it back up a little bit. 

Old school was so much more fun.

Here are the results. ZERO eq. ?

Sounds much better but still not quite what I'm after.

I hope you guys understand when I start threads like this I am being EXTREMLY picky and it should not reflect the quality of the gear. 

The audio frog subs are GREAT and 90 percent of people out there would likely not even hear what I'm hearing. 1 single person at my regular shops understood and we both agreed that I'd prefer larger drivers that weren't down firing but that's what I have. 
I want to give them some more power. They are rated up to 1000w each rms and I am feeding them 600w each. I know putting between 2000 and 3000w on them will sharpen them up a good bit.

Right now they are distorting too early. Tons of output but a bit uncontrolled sounding. (Again I'm being super picky).

In fact in most of my threads I'm being very picky. I love sound more than anything in this world but that's a double edge sword. 
I miss the days when any ole sub that would shake the windows of my house would do. 

Anyway here's the new measurement before eq.
I'm really digging this tune. Tight, punchy and super clear.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

drop1 said:


> This will explain most if it.
> I have been eqing around it but it explains the crazy peaks with the dsp eq by passed.
> 
> I had my truck stock stereo set flat with forscan. Well apparently it did not take.
> ...


flat response doesnt really matter. Do you want the response to be flat coming out of your dsp? what makes your dsp better at making a given response sound better than an OEM's frequency response?

I'll give you a hint.. the response doesnt matter so long as nothing is missing. Its timing, phase, and general **** (distorted) signal that you need to be worried about


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

drop1 said:


> Here are the results. ZERO eq. ?


you should show what resolution the vertical scale is...


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

SkizeR said:


> you should show what resolution the vertical scale is...


...and take an actual "screen shot" with the PC using the "Print Screen" <PrtScr> function key in the top right row on the keyboard...then open the MS Paint program and Paste the image into MS Paint using <Ctrl> + 'V' keys, or Right Mouse Click & choose "Paste". The image of your screen capture will pop up, then name and save the image file then upload/attach it to your forum post.

You're only doing the multiple spatial-averaging measurements for above ~250Hz, right? And IDK, but 40+ S-A measurements is a bit excessive IMO. :surprised:


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

drop1 said:


> Ok. I extended the port, ultra fine tuned the ta and used the old school method of setting crossovers where you listen for the suck out and raise it back up a little bit.
> 
> Old school was so much more fun.
> 
> ...


I would probably hear what you're hearing. I'm glad you're making progress. I don't know about going over 2000 watts on those subs, the maximum power rating is *only* double the rms rating for a reason, I'd be very careful exceeding that. I had to go with 2 Wolfram W3000.1's for my CSS SDX12's because my Memphis PRX1500.1 amps were hitting distortion before the subs were happy, I think the sub impedance was too low. Anyway, they're happy now with about 1800 watts each, and I'm happy with them. Good luck.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > Here are the results. ZERO eq. ?
> ...


It is on 5 degree increments. I was aslo only speaking about the sub portion. The highs have been eqed to my taste.

As far as flat frequncy response coming out the radio, I was specifically speaking about why the non eqed sub frequncy response looked so horrible. Nothing else. 

I actually went on to use that to my advantage and tuned the box around it . My radio has a built in boost at 50hz of almost 15db. My truck and the frogs have a huge peak at 40hz. I dropped the crossover to just below 50 since the fronts are playing to 65 and lowered the port tuning. I want to lower port tuning some more but need to add port outside the box as there is no more room to extend it inside.

That's what gave me the results I got on the sub.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Dayton Reference ho10 is my choice for your needs. Clean with good weight to the sound.


I have a few issues with Dayton subs in particular. 

A while back I spent a long time on PE website reading the customer reviews on the subs and the small class T amp in particular. For me, there seemed to be far too many negative reviews about build quality of the subs, and the amp received way, way too many 1 star reviews. Then they had a site makeover, and all of a sudden most of the negative reviews disappeared . Every now and again, _*it seems *_.... as though the same keeps on happening. Too many 1 or 2 star reviews are there one day, and gone the next. 

I've only know one person to try a Dayton sub, and it didn't go well. In the case of my friend, the 1 star reviews on the build quality came to fruition and all too soon. TBH, they were nothing to write home about, but to then fail a short time afterwards ... and that was me and Dayton subs over and done with. At some point I look again, but once bitten ..... 

I have a huge respect for both Dayton and PE, but as for their subs, I'd be hard pressed to say: I'm impressed.


----------



## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> brand name has nothing to do with it. Its when the meaningless adjectives start getting thrown around to back ones own knowledge is where i personally draw a line. especially when i can tell from previous threads/posts that something doesnt seem right. the first thing that goes through my head is fix the problem instead of making up a solution. again, after dealing with this stuff day in and day out and having used i think every single sub mentioned in this thread, i can guarantee the equipment isnt the problem. It almost never is.


It seems Pete outlines such problems in the second half of this video


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Well no matter what happens no one can say I didn't try.
I'd love to get what I want from these subs. I really want to keep them for my local shop to use for demos. 

They simply start getting floppy (distorted) too early on the power I have on them. 

At lower levels they are fine so its one of 2 things. They need a LOT more power or are too high distorion for my taste. 

I the current ported box is giving me the right sound, just not enough of it to keep up with techno,pop rock. Sq music is fine. Blues, jazz and such are good. 

Skiezr this is partially your fault lol. You told me it was silly to not have a sub controller upfront, so I got one. 

I was perfectly happy believing my static volume which was a compromise between the most bass heavy and least bass heavy music I listen to was the issue. 
Now that I can turn them up and down and level match them by track they seem to have issues keeping up on bass heavy material.

Yes I tend to use audio file terms but i have to day to day. It's what musicians use to describe gear that is intentionally made to sound different with varying degrees of different types of distortion intentionally added. 


So im going to by pass all that and ask in yalls terms,

Can 2 gb 10 subs play 125db on 1200w CLEANLY, because I'm getting between 105 and 110 before they start sounding uncontrolled/distorted with no eq, just a crossover set between 50 and 60hz.

Eqed flat I get the same distorion much earlier.


----------



## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

bbfoto said:


> SkizeR said:
> 
> 
> > you should show what resolution the vertical scale is...
> ...




Off topic, but snipping tools is way better for windows.

For Mac cmd+shift+5 for screen capture.


----------



## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

Have any of you heard that tielo from tc sounds works for dayton/parts express? My boss told me he designs all the Dayton woofers. I'm not sure if that's true. I met him a few times while working with my dad's company and my boss said they were friends.


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

jdunk54nl said:


> Off topic,
> 
> For Mac cmd+shift+5 for screen capture.


still off topic, BUT ACTUALLY, for Mac OS

cmd+shift+3 does an entire screen capture 

and cmd+shift+4 allows for a select capture using drag and click on the mouse or trackpad.

cmd+shift+5 doesn't do anything at all


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

2 things I can think of.

1. Are you putting a subsonic filter below port tune because the driver will I load quickly below port tune and the driver is susceptible to damage, especially if you run more wattage through it.

2. Are you sure the input signal is clean, especially when you turn it up? The distortion may be input signal based so I’d verify the signal by turning it up and measuring it directly.


----------



## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

seafish said:


> still off topic, BUT ACTUALLY, for Mac OS
> 
> cmd+shift+3 does an entire screen capture
> 
> ...


What OS are you running? Cmd+shift+5 was added in mojave. CMD+Shift+5 gives you a box on the screen that you can resize, much like cmd+shift+4, except you can modify the box as much as you want prior to capturing that screen. It also allows you to video record your screen or the part that is highlighted.

https://www.imore.com/screenshot-mac


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

jdunk54nl said:


> What OS are you running? Cmd+shift+5 was added in mojave. CMD+Shift+5 gives you a box on the screen that you can resize, much like cmd+shift+4, except you can modify the box as much as you want prior to capturing that screen. It also allows you to video record your screen or the part that is highlighted.
> 
> https://www.imore.com/screenshot-mac


or just use the include Screenshot app


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

dgage said:


> 2 things I can think of.
> 
> 1. Are you putting a subsonic filter below port tune because the driver will I load quickly below port tune and the driver is susceptible to damage, especially if you run more wattage through it.
> 
> 2. Are you sure the input signal is clean, especially when you turn it up? The distortion may be input signal based so I’d verify the signal by turning it up and measuring it directly.


I have 2 boxes, one sealed one ported. Results are the same.

I have been through the chain more times than I can count. 
I'm using 2 inputs from the headunit. Left and right. The helix splits that into 6 channels. 2 mids 2tweets 2 subs. The sub channels are linked and stay identical. The helix is not clipping on input and ot anywhere close to clipping on output. 

My bass knob is a gain controller. So when I adjust it i can max out the amps clean output by ear easily. That's what I'm assuming top clean output from the subs are. 


Now I'm looking for subs that are more sensitive or require less power or both. I need more clean output from the subs. My new front stage should easily do 115db. I will likely run it at 110db during demos so I need at least 125 of clean sub output. Preferably 130db CLEAN. 

If the frogs can give me that on more power I will add more power. If they cant, that's why I started this thread. I'm looking for 2 10s that can on the 1200w I have available with my box requirements.

Either way, more power or different subs, it's going to be expensive so I'd like to get it right the first time.


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

drop1 said:


> If the frogs can give me that on more power I will add more power. If they cant, that's why I started this thread.


you started thr thread to get the most detailed sub possible, and like most of your threads they tend to morph into something else.

Now you want a 130db substage. That takes you away from SQ and away from "detailed", and takes you into SPL or maybe SQL.

My suggestion is to figure out what you before wasting anymore time here.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

drop1 said:


> Well no matter what happens no one can say I didn't try.
> I'd love to get what I want from these subs. I really want to keep them for my local shop to use for demos.
> 
> They simply start getting floppy (distorted) too early on the power I have on them.
> ...


Again, I'm 100% positive that everything in here is not because of the subs. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

dgage said:


> 2 things I can think of.
> 
> 1. Are you putting a subsonic filter below port tune because the driver will load quickly below port tune and the driver is susceptible to damage, especially if you run more wattage through it.
> 
> 2. Are you sure the input signal is clean, especially when you turn it up? The distortion may be input signal based so I’d verify the signal by turning it up and measuring it directly.


^THIS :thumbsup:


You might want to check this out...

Here is a Beta-Test install of the soon to be relaeased *iDataLink Maestro MFT1* 8" Ford F-150 MyFord Touch radio replacement kit.






And PAC Audio will also be releasing a complete dash kit that allows you to replace the 8" OEM Head Unit as well. It's the *PAC RadioPRO 4 #RPK4-FD2101* + *RPA-16P5V Expansion Harness*.

I'm not certain that it will fit & work with your exact F-150 MY & OEM stereo options, but you should check it out. It should retain nearly all of the OEM features, HVAC controls & backup camera, etc.

Fast-Forward to 7:46 and then again to 25:38 in the following video by _5 Star Car Stereo_...






With either one you could install a high-quality aftermarket double-DIN Touchscreen of your choice. For ultimate SQ & overall features I would highly recommend the 2018 and 2019 Kenwood eXcelon Reference head units...the 2019 DDX996XR or DNX996XR (NAV) or 2018 DDX9905S or DNX995S. Those will guarantee pristine, full range, unadulterated 5v preamp outputs that do not clip even at full volume.

My personal experience with a multitude of Ford's MyTouch/MySync/MyFord OEM source units is that the output signal is pure rubbish. And that means Garbage In = Garbage Out.

If you don't want to replace the OEM head unit, then my suggestion would be to use a portable DAP, iPhone/iPad, or Android Smartphone connected directly to your DSP via USB Digital, Digital Coaxial or Optical, or Analog Line Level out of a DAP. 

I hate using the phrase, "Trust Me", but in this case it applies and the quality of the source signal will be Night & Day compared to the OEM head unit.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

I’m not as up on what subs can do dB wise but that sounds like a lot for the size (10”) and power you have. The AF is a general purpose sub meant to sound good in many different scenarios. But it wasn’t designed for SQL, which is what it sounds like you’re after. 

If you say your entire signal chain is clean at the volume level you want run, then it sounds like your current sub setup will not meet your needs. You need to be looking at much beefier subs and put a whole lot more power to them. Unfortunately, you don’t have a lot of room to do it. Maybe you should try 8 8” SQL subs in sealed enclosures and maybe you’ll be able to fit those with enough amps to give them 1,000+ each. Or maybe 4 ported 10s but unfortunately it doesn’t sound like you have much room to work with.


----------



## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

miniSQ said:


> or just use the include Screenshot app


cmd+shift+5 is the shortcut for that app.


----------



## AD Ventium (Mar 22, 2017)

drop1 said:


> dgage said:
> 
> 
> > 2 things I can think of.
> ...


----------



## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

Mahapederdon said:


> Have any of you heard that tielo from tc sounds works for dayton/parts express? My boss told me he designs all the Dayton woofers. I'm not sure if that's true. I met him a few times while working with my dad's company and my boss said they were friends.


Then why aren't the Dayton/Parts Express woofers/subwoofers a whole lot more "monstrous"? With his knowledge and PE's resources, I'm sure he could go back to the glory days of 5400 motors and such! Imagine the Ultimax's on NRT motors! In fact, the whole line-up of Ultimax's could use a make-over. Stronger magnets to get the Qes a lot lower for more efficiency & sensitivity, thicker top-plate to sink more heat, and bigger coils. The spider is good, as is the surround (capable of a lot of excursion), and I think they increased the QC control as haven't read so much about spider issues lately, hopefully this is the case since the prices have been increasing, so hopefully they've been rejecting more and more drivers that don't pass quality checks. My only gripe is that the person(s) in charge of dispensing the glue at the triple joint (or programming the machine that does so) is not doing a very good job as there is a lot of run-off where the tinsel lead is, and it spills over into the 1st trough of the surround, which later separates and causes a little bit of noise. But other than that, they seem to be better than before.


----------



## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

130db..........what was that sonny...I didn't hear you....


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Oscar said:


> Then why aren't the Dayton/Parts Express woofers/subwoofers a whole lot more "monstrous"? With his knowledge and PE's resources, I'm sure he could go back to the glory days of 5400 motors and such! Imagine the Ultimax's on NRT motors!


As one who still owns a LMS-5400, maybe the market isn’t there to build only high-end subs, which could be one reason TC Sounds went out of business. Too bad for us!


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

bbfoto said:


> dgage said:
> 
> 
> > 2 things I can think of.
> ...





dgage said:


> I’m not as up on what subs can do dB wise but that sounds like a lot for the size (10”) and power you have. The AF is a general purpose sub meant to sound good in many different scenarios. But it wasn’t designed for SQL, which is what it sounds like you’re after.
> 
> If you say your entire signal chain is clean at the volume level you want run, then it sounds like your current sub setup will not meet your needs. You need to be looking at much beefier subs and put a whole lot more power to them. Unfortunately, you don’t have a lot of room to do it. Maybe you should try 8 8” SQL subs in sealed enclosures and maybe you’ll be able to fit those with enough amps to give them 1,000+ each. Or maybe 4 ported 10s but unfortunately it doesn’t sound like you have much room to work with.


I just got the cable to make my radio 100 percent flat frequncy and reduce the outputs to 4v pre outs. Currently waiting on my authorisation code . 

I waited months on the pac piece and it started shipping last friday but I think its hideous. 

My shop and I are patiently waiting on the piece you posted. 
Believe me I've been hunting radio options since the day I bought my truck. 
I'm so close to just throwing a linkswell Tesla style radio In here.

If the maestro kit is nice I'll get something like the 8100nex from pioneer or a lower model. Whichever has capacitive screen.


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

bbfoto said:


> dgage said:
> 
> 
> > 2 things I can think of.
> ...



Dude the maestro piece is HOT. I can retain all manual controls. I hope it's not $600 like the pac kit


----------



## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

dgage said:


> Oscar said:
> 
> 
> > Then why aren't the Dayton/Parts Express woofers/subwoofers a whole lot more "monstrous"? With his knowledge and PE's resources, I'm sure he could go back to the glory days of 5400 motors and such! Imagine the Ultimax's on NRT motors!
> ...


That's what I think. Most people want cheap. I help him setup a booth next to ours at ces many years ago. All I really remember is he had a woofer on a panel playing like 10hz. It was moving in and out so far all day. Then he said watch this. He turned it off, unscrewed the normal magnet and screwed a neo on. Haha. I was trippin. I was in my early 20s so I was super into huge woofers. That was the same show I saw that belt driven woofer setup in a car. Good times.


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jdunk54nl said:


> 130db..........what was that sonny...I didn't hear you....


I always find it funny when people bring up hearing damage charts. In higher frequcies yes it can be dangerous. In sub bass 130db is nothing.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Is your port tuned low enough?


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Holmz said:


> Is your port tuned low enough?


I went back to the sealed. I got the port down to 32 and it was ok but sealed sounds better. I'll never get output I want from them now but oh well they sound more controlled in the higher bass.


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

In a .8 each Cft box they will pressure up the cab at 16 hz. Not like I need it but its neat.

This stock radio definitely plays full range. Injust did the flat frequency response mod and the line level output mod. Its cleaner in the high.

For the sake of keeping my speakers all high end audio frog fir my shops demos I have decided to add 2 more gb 10 subs for a total of 4. We will have no problems getting all 4 under the seat with ideal airspace.


----------



## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

drop1 said:


> I always find it funny when people bring up hearing damage charts. In higher frequcies yes it can be dangerous. In sub bass 130db is nothing.


While there is a higher threshold for lower frequencies, they can still cause hearing loss and 130db is about when that starts happening..

https://royalsociety.org/news/2014/sounds-we-dont-hear-could-still-affect-our-ears/

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/09/sounds-you-cant-hear-can-still-hurt-your-ears

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0aa5/1d537dd026a4e69ce9a46bcbc8663bf7d795.pdf


----------



## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

FOUR GB10s? YES! Yes yes yes!!! That is going to be awesome!


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

drop1 said:


> I went back to the sealed. I got the port down to 32 and it was ok but sealed sounds better. I'll never get output I want from them now *but oh well they sound more controlled in the higher bass.*


^The main objective of your OP above in *BOLD*...

So basically...you wasted 7 pages worth of a bunch of other people's time, including your own, because errr...you just didn't think that it would possibly be a good idea to even _try_ the subwoofers in their *Audiofrog RECOMMENDED* Sealed Enclosures, or in their *Audiofrog RECOMMENDED* Ported Enclosures, with the correct Volume & Tuning Frequency???!!!


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

chithead said:


> FOUR GB10s? YES! Yes yes yes!!! That is going to be awesome!


4 gb 10s sealed on a 3000w mmats amp.


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

You guys seem to be overlooking some stuff. 

My truck is used to give demos of AF gear and dsp capabilities at my local shop.

In return I get massive discounts.

I listen with the midrange averaging about 80db. 
But I have to be able to show off everything from sq to ground pounding.

They have audiophile customers then they have the type that buy gb15s because they "scream".

I'm just trying to be as prepared as possible for all thier client base .

I'm basically a local ambassador for AF in a market where it's just starting to catch on.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bbfoto said:


> ^The main objective of your OP above in *BOLD*...
> 
> So basically...you wasted 7 pages worth of a bunch of other people's time, including your own, because errr...you just didn't think that it would possibly be a good idea to even _try_ the subwoofers in their *Audiofrog RECOMMENDED* Sealed Enclosures, or in their *Audiofrog RECOMMENDED* Ported Enclosures, with the correct Volume & Tuning Frequency???!!!


look at his post history. Hell, look at his thread history. Did you expect anything else?


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

JMikeK said:


> 6 or 8 Hz wouldn't be good for anyone...
> 
> 6-8 Hz? No offense, but citation needed...


See post #89.





drop1 said:


> You guys seem to be overlooking some stuff.
> 
> My truck is used to give demos of AF gear and dsp capabilities at my local shop.
> 
> ...



It seems like the goal posts have moved from post #1.



drop1 said:


> *I'm looking for the most detailed 10" sub that I can fit under my rear seat. I don't need massive output.* Something that can run at 120db and stay musical is what I'm after. I'm particularly interested in its performance between 60 and 120 hz. That need to be smooth and musical.
> 
> I believe it can only be 6.5" deep too unfortually.


That shop asking you to do the demos may be better off picking a particular client base...
A 10" sub that fits under the seat and uses a modest amp, and sounds good... then has some potential client draw to it... particularly if it sounds good.

However when 4 are needed, and 3000W then it sort of raises the price, complexity and seems like a different beast.


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Holmz said:


> JMikeK said:
> 
> 
> > 6 or 8 Hz wouldn't be good for anyone...
> ...


Yes the goal changed in the thread. Instead of people commenting posting subs that stay super low distorion at high volume I got hammered with all kinds of tuning advice.

So, I figured that if this many people were climbing my ass about it then maybe I really was doing something wrong so I began investigating.

Yes seal sounds "better" but it still starts getting sloppy at about 115 db. 

Up to that point it's good. After speaking to my shop I was convinced (mostly due to price) that keeping the frogs was the thing to do and it is reasonable to assume that if 2 give me what I want at up to 115db then 4 with more power should give me at least 120db CLEAN.

I began this thread because I havent kept up with current sq subs. I simply wanted to know what was out there in super low distorion subs.

The forum took it in another direction with almost no one answering my actual question. 

People are so concerned with trying to disprove my capabilities they didnt even bother actually giving advice. 

To those that did give recommendations for subs, thank you. 

For those just trying to disprove my capabilities the offer still stands. Anyone, anytime, you are more than welcome to sit in my divers seat.


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

drop1 said:


> Yes the goal changed in the thread. Instead of people commenting posting subs that stay super low distorion at high volume I got hammered with all kinds of tuning advice.
> 
> So, I figured that if this many people were climbing my ass about it then maybe I really was doing something wrong so I began investigating.
> 
> ...


why the F would you post a "what is the most detailed sub" thread when you were demo'ing AF equipment for a shop? wouldn't that shop be able to tell you how best to use that sub? I think you are done here. (diyma).


----------



## JMikeK (Jan 2, 2019)

Holmz said:


> See post #89.


My question was not about response down to 8 Hz. It was about 8 (or 6) Hz tuning.

For an actual example, here's a 25 cube 18" re-xxx build that is tuned to 11.5 Hz. It isn't naturally flat, but will produce significant output (100+ dbs) down to 5 Hz. It also the size a queen bed and weighs 380 lbs.

24" subwoofers I'm sure can also be tuned quite low or whatever. I still don't see the point in tuning them to 8 Hz or less. Most are probably sealed because there is basically no point to tuning that low. It creates a giant box and lots of problems with no real upside.

I stick by my original (and uncontroversial) point that 6-8 Hz tuning is not good for anyone or anything including home theater in a large room, but especial mobile audio.


----------



## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

I don't think anyone mentioned 8 Hz tuning. The issue was with the 37 Hz tuning Drop1 had being too high. Someone suggested there isn't much content below 30 Hz and since I build subs that are flat in-room to 6-7 Hz, I disagreed as I have heard all sorts of musical content with sub-20 Hz content. But this diversion does not help this thread so I regret the confusion I caused and think this should put this part of the conversation to rest.


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

dgage said:


> I don't think anyone mentioned 8 Hz tuning. The issue was with the 37 Hz tuning Drop1 had being too high. Someone suggested there isn't much content below 30 Hz and since I build subs that are flat in-room to 6-7 Hz, I disagreed as I have heard all sorts of musical content with sub-20 Hz content. But this diversion does not help this thread so I regret the confusion I caused and think this should put this part of the conversation to rest.


i told him a month ago, in another thread that the boxes he was using was WAY to big. problem is he has about 10 threads open all over the place and its hard to effectively communicate that way.


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

miniSQ said:


> dgage said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think anyone mentioned 8 Hz tuning. The issue was with the 37 Hz tuning Drop1 had being too high. Someone suggested there isn't much content below 30 Hz and since I build subs that are flat in-room to 6-7 Hz, I disagreed as I have heard all sorts of musical content with sub-20 Hz content. But this diversion does not help this thread so I regret the confusion I caused and think this should put this part of the conversation to rest.
> ...


The box wasnt too big. It was 2.1 cubes. That's about 1cube per driver after displacement.
The port tuning was a bit high but even corrected to below 33hz the sun's still did not play nice ip past about 60 hz. They still domt in the seal enclosure. I prefer the sound but they still dont do what I started this thread for.


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

miniSQ said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes the goal changed in the thread. Instead of people commenting posting subs that stay super low distorion at high volume I got hammered with all kinds of tuning advice.
> ...


Our agreement it to show what a tuned dsp compared to a basic tune with only crossovers is all about.

Our agreement is also for my front stage. 

It's also my truck and if I'm not happy I'm going to change something. The owners know that and that was agreed fine from the start.


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

To those actually following the thread

I'm keeping the frogs in the sealed enclosure. 

I still do not like the way they sound crossed over at 65 hz. I have them crossed at 60 on a 36db lr then used the helix phase alignment to sync them up. That keeps the high bass from coming through and makes them ok. Still not ideal but much better. Thankfully the gb60s kick ass down low. I prefer a bit higher crossover so that things like taps against an acoustic guitar can have that big sound like you are in a room with the player even though they tend to be quiet sounds but this is not bad. 

The sound is a bit cold but overall so much better. 
For those that contributed, thank you. 

Some of you guys need to chill. This is supposed to be fun! Yes I'm enthusiastic about it. It is my passion.


----------



## AD Ventium (Mar 22, 2017)

drop1 said:


> jdunk54nl said:
> 
> 
> > 130db..........what was that sonny...I didn't hear you....
> ...


Just because it is more tolerable when it’s sub bass does not mean it doesn’t harm our hearing even when you look at the equal level chart of a humans hearing, at 85 dB in the midrange the equivalent level at 10 hz! is around the 130 dB mark so still hearing can be damaged and idk how you think it’s not dangerous. 

Like I said I love some clean and loud music but I would try to heed people’s warnings and not look down on them. My dad has tinnitus and I can definitely say it’s something I never want to experience. Not trying to chastise you as you are my elder I’m just genuinely just showing concern as I know that ramifications of loud levels?

Edit: Hope you enjoy your 4 gb10s that should be pretty cool I apologize for your thread turning into a personal attack but you’re right it should be fun as a hobby and it’s why we all joined this forum.


----------



## JMikeK (Jan 2, 2019)

dgage said:


> I don't think anyone mentioned 8 Hz tuning. The issue was with the 37 Hz tuning Drop1 had being too high. Someone suggested there isn't much content below 30 Hz and since I build subs that are flat in-room to 6-7 Hz, I disagreed as I have heard all sorts of musical content with sub-20 Hz content. But this diversion does not help this thread so I regret the confusion I caused and think this should put this part of the conversation to rest.


OK maybe you are right about 8 Hz "tuning" question. You're definitely right that it's not doing much for the thread. So ... four sealed 10s crossed at a brick wall 60 Hz? I am sure that sounds clean, but I wonder what it is that won't let drop1 tolerate the midbass response of the GB10.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Dude, I'm sorry that your thread turned into a clusterfrack, but ultimately, YOU are the only one who could have helped to avoid that, and you _could have_ received truly valuable and applicable information much more quickly, with much less frustration to all involved.

You can ignore me if you want, but all that I'm asking is that before you start Another "help me...'' Thread or Topic, PLEASE seriously think through your exact goals and sort out _exactly_ what you want to achieve! And the Subjective Terms you _tried_ to use were absolutely meaningless, and often contradictory, IMHO.

AND, *Most Importantly*...

In your INITIAL POST, please include ALL of the pertinent information regarding your ENTIRE SYSTEM SETUP and exactly what you have already tried or changed.

You continued to post Only Little Tidbits of information here & there randomly throughout the many pages of the thread! And it was still a guessing game to try and piece it all together and to determine WTH you really wanted. 

Up until well into the thread we had NO IDEA that you needed the system to function as a SHOP DEMO VEHICLE for AUDIOFROG PRODUCTS.

FOR EXAMPLE, in your first post, unless everyone who had chimed in here had already followed some of your other posts, none of us even knew exactly *WHAT VEHICLE* you were working with!

Just that seemingly simple information is extremely IMPORTANT. There may be another member here who has _already_ tried nearly every possible Subwoofer Configuration in this Exact Vehicle and knows what Will & Will Not work.

*Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in your OP, you gave absolutely no indications as to:*

_How Many_ subwoofers were in your enclosure?

We didn't know the _Enclosure Type_.

We didn't know the _Enclosure Volume_ (per Driver).

We didn't know (if ported) what the current _Tuning Frequency_ was.

We didn't know if it was a PREFAB or CUSTOM enclosure. For instance, a FoxBox only comes in certain configurations for certain vehicles.

We didn't know if the Subwoofer/Subwoofers were _Located_ on the Passenger or Driver side, or What Direction they were Firing (down, up, front, back, side).

We didn't know if the Subwoofer(s) have D2 or D4 Voicecoils, and how it/they are wired (series, parallel, etc.)

We didn't know What you were using as your _Main Source Unit_ for playback...or if it is RCA line-level or Speaker Level, or that you had/or were trying/planning to mod its output with ForScan.

We didn't know what _DSP_ you are using.

We didn't know what _Amplifier(s)_ you are using, how they were wired to the sub(s), or how many.

We didn't know exactly what the _Front Stage Driver Setup_ consisted of...2-way, 3-way, and what specific drivers.

We didn't know the _Mounting Locations_ of your Front Stage Setup.

And you didn't post any Measurements or FR plots until later, and IMO what was posted was incomplete and not much use without other system response info.

On and on, we were left guessing.

Some people _might_ have guessed or known that your vehicle was a Truck by the ''under rear seat enclosure" statement, but that's not a given (it could be any number of vehicles).

And then, What Model Year & Trim Level, what OEM Audio system options?...


ALL of that INFORMATION can make a huge difference and be important in determining how to help isolate and troubleshoot the exact issue.

You can't assume that anyone who might potentially have _THE answer_ you're seeking already knows ALL of the background info on your specific vehicle, your system setup, and particular circumstances, and what you have already done or experimented with to remedy the problem.

You NEED to put ALL of this pertinent INFORMATION in your FIRST POST! We are not mind readers. Sometimes the smallest of details can be the clue to understanding or realizing what the problems are.

Dude, we ALL want to help each other, and enjoy the process of learning and achieving our SQ/SQL/SPL goals to find musical bliss. That is WHY we are here on DIYMA, and why we are posting in _this_ thread (until it went South)!

But it is IMPOSSIBLE to help ANYONE without knowing all of the pertinent information UP FRONT when trying to diagnose specific problems like this. And it sure didn't help when you presented piecemeal information AND a Moving Target as the thread progressed!

/END OF RANT


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

bbfoto said:


> Dude, I'm sorry that your thread turned into a clusterfrack, but ultimately, YOU are the only one who could have helped to avoid that, and you _could have_ received truly valuable and applicable information much more quickly, with much less frustration to all involved.
> 
> You can ignore me if you want, but all that I'm asking is that before you start Another "help me...'' Thread or Topic, PLEASE seriously think through your exact goals and sort out _exactly_ what you want to achieve! And the Subjective Terms you _tried_ to use were absolutely meaningless, and often contradictory, IMHO.
> 
> ...


*slow clap*

this is the best post this forum has seen since drop started posting threads again a few weeks back.. no one stops to think about all of the variables that contribute to the end result of what you're hearing, and frankly, explaining it to some people isnt even worth the time. I'm going to bookmark this post for future quoting


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Damn bbfoto...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

tonynca said:


> Damn bbfoto...


LOL, sorry Tony! :blush: I don't usually get triggered so easily, but Got [email protected], this thread had me pulling what little hair I have left out my head, ha!  It sux to get old & grumpy.


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## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

*Most detailed 10&quot; sub*



bbfoto said:


> LOL, sorry Tony! :blush: I don't usually get triggered so easily, but Got [email protected], this thread had me pulling what little hair I have left out my head, ha!  It sux to get old & grumpy.



Haha hella detailed. It's worth copying that into my notepad to reply to "help threads"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

bbfoto, that's not being "triggered" as the millennials say. That's being attentive and caring enough to actually try to correct the issue.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

dgage said:


> I don't think anyone mentioned 8 Hz tuning. The issue was with the 37 Hz tuning Drop1 had being too high. Someone suggested there isn't much content below 30 Hz and since I build subs that are flat in-room to 6-7 Hz, I disagreed as I have heard all sorts of musical content with sub-20 Hz content. But this diversion does not help this thread so I regret the confusion I caused and think this should put this part of the conversation to rest.


The 6, 7, or 8-Hz was a but orthogonal... but in the spirit of the high port tuning it was relevant... there is nothing to apologise for IMO.


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## Pad (Mar 22, 2009)

Scan-Speak 23W/4557T00 is the best bass I've heard in a car to this day, by a fair margin.

$0.02


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## cartaufalous (Oct 23, 2019)

I like the current JL audio 10s, but I have some ancient a/d/s 10s that sound great too. Both have a crisp, natural sound with lots of detail.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

cartaufalous said:


> I like the current JL audio 10s, but I have some ancient a/d/s 10s that sound great too. Both have a crisp, natural sound with lots of detail.


I've had a few JL 10's including this https://www.youtube.com/watch?z6BoD0skWY






Hybrid Audio was miles ahead of JL in terms of SQ, so was the Sundown Audio E-10 that I installed in my nephews car TBH, and better on output as well.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

I found a way to fit an Adire Brahma 12 under the rear seat so this thread can stop. Thank you all for your recommendations.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

drop1 said:


> I found a way to fit an Adire Brahma 12 under the rear seat so this thread can stop. Thank you all for your recommendations.


We’ll hold now now their drop1. Now that you have made the switch from your fluttering GB10 to the Adire Brama I’m guessing that you are able to give us a subjective comparison between the two now? Did the Adire Brama fulfill your need for more SPL without the distortion you experienced with the GB? 

Besides, now SkizeR can’t heckle you anymore so you don’t have to worry about him unless you post on CAJ, :laugh:. 

I would actually like to know your thoughts.

Thanks


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

JCsAudio said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > I found a way to fit an Adire Brahma 12 under the rear seat so this thread can stop. Thank you all for your recommendations.
> ...


I dont gave it yet. It should be here Friday. 

I'm going to start out feeding it 1200w and see where that gets me and then make the decision between feeding it 2000w or 3000w. 

It has almost double the xmax of 2 gb 10s and more cone area so I'm expecting good things. 
We will see. Test box is built. Just waiting on the sub to arrive.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Two 10’s have more total cone area than one twelve but none the less it will be interesting to read about your impressions.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

JCsAudio said:


> Two 10’s have more total cone area than one twelve but none the less it will be interesting to read about your impressions.


I may hate it for all I know but I doubt it. I actually like the gb 10s a lot a lower levels. They just aren't loud enough for me.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Pad said:


> Scan-Speak 23W/4557T00 is the best bass I've heard in a car to this day, by a fair margin.
> 
> $0.02


The 32w/4878T00 is even better. It has a delicious texture to it and exceptional detail.



drop1 said:


> I found a way to fit an Adire Brahma 12 under the rear seat so this thread can stop. Thank you all for your recommendations.


Good for you OP. I had a few of those back in Adire's heyday. They were nice, clean, and generally well behaved, albeit power-hungry as far as I remember.


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

drop1 said:


> I wish I had shops that could do stuff like this around me.
> It's not fair!


Toby can take of that for you at Mobile Audio Plus 1404 Kurt Dr
Bloomington, IL 61701


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

AVIDEDTR said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > I wish I had shops that could do stuff like this around me.
> ...


I really need some pillars but I can NOT leave my truck with anyone. It's my work vehicle. 

I guess I could pay to rent a like model and let the installer use the rental for fitment then have the pillars shipped to me.


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