# Hybrid Audio L6SE Klippel Testing



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I had tested this driver before (not the exact same one, mind you) last year. Thanks to an upcoming subjective listening test from Jerry, I was given another sample to test with the klippel so that all the drivers tested would be tested fully with the Klippel suite.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/bikinpunks-product-review-forum/106244-hybrid-audio-l6-l6se.html


Here's a photo of the driver I tested last year. Nothing about this particular test is any different. In fact, the driver was NIB when I received it and went through a couple days' break-in.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

LSI & LPM Testing (please see attached pdf for full data collected; I have only posted a snapshot):



*10% distortion based Xmax limited by suspension at 3.2mm.*

I would like to note I had to drive this speaker very hard to get bl to resolve. I never heard anything out of the ordinary. No audible mechanical noise to speak of.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*FR & HD at 2.83v/1m:*





















Zoomed FR:


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Harmonic Distortion testing @ 102dB/0.5m (took about 6.3v to reach this desired output)


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

IMD testing done in intervals (as shown) and up to 6.3v (again, to get ~ 102dB @ 1/2 meter).


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

That's it.


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## bkjay (Jul 7, 2009)

3.2 Xmax hmm. Way lower then the specs. Is this why some people say the midbass is not the strongest?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

It's not a mechanical Xmax. It's a distortion limited Xmax. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## bkjay (Jul 7, 2009)

If the test was done the same way in your L4 test the Xmax was very close to oneway Xmax specs.given by hybrid. Not saying anything is wrong with the test just saying, one driver they give specs for mechanical Xmax and the next driver they give distortion Xmax. Just confused on my part,or am I missing something?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I can't tell you what hybrid rates their driver by. However, klippel testing always is a value at 10% distortion (or 20% if it's a subwoofer). 



Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## bkjay (Jul 7, 2009)

Cool. Thanks for all your hard work.


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## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

Outstanding off axis performance. Pretty good distortion numbers, xmax is perfectly fine unless you run it to 63hz with a 12 db slope at relatively high power. High qts, low fs, ~1 cubic foot vas suggest it's a good fit for IB door or moderately sized sealed.

The only thing that would worry me about using this driver in a door is water or condensation. That paper cone will not handle that well untreated.

If you can control that factor, this looks like a great mid.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

its_bacon12 said:


> Outstanding off axis performance. Pretty good distortion numbers, xmax is perfectly fine unless you run it to 63hz with a 12 db slope at relatively high power. High qts, low fs, ~1 cubic foot vas suggest it's a good fit for IB door or moderately sized sealed.
> 
> The only thing that would worry me about using this driver in a door is water or condensation. That paper cone will not handle that well untreated.
> 
> If you can control that factor, this looks like a great mid.


You do know that the paper cone on every Hybrid driver is treated to be water resistant, right?  

Kelvin


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I believe the cone on these is treated on the back side.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I believe the cone on these is treated on the back side.


Only on the back side? The Imagine line has a treated cone on the front side too - there's a vid on it on youtube where they put water on the cone, let it dry and play some music @ the end... 

Kelvin


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## GLN305 (Nov 2, 2007)

From the Hybrid PDF:

The
cone has been treated with a water resistant element at the rear to accommodate door mounting, or
other areas prone to occasional contact with liquid.


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

its_bacon12 said:


> xmax is perfectly fine unless you run it to 63hz with a 12 db slope at relatively high power.


Thats where i run mine. Dedicated Midbass mind you. Sounds great.


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## GLN305 (Nov 2, 2007)

RattyMcClelland said:


> Thats where i run mine. Dedicated Midbass mind you. Sounds great.


Mine are highpassed at 50Hz 24db. octave and they are plenty strong. I would easily compare them to the Exodus Anarchy on the bottom end.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

GLN305 said:


> I would easily compare them to the Exodus Anarchy on the bottom end.


I certainly wouldn't.

Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

These things look really nice. 

Isn't Mms extremely low? Maybe this is why they only coat on one side?

Is it safe to say these would do extremely well in a 2-way?


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## GLN305 (Nov 2, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> I certainly wouldn't.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


Having owned both, I can say they are very capable down low.

EDIT: I'll make sure and keep my opinions to myself.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

GLN305 said:


> EDIT: I'll make sure and keep my opinions to myself.


Come on, man... 
What's different from me giving an opinion and you giving an opinion?
Because I disagree you leave a comment like this? 

I've 'owned' both. In fact, this is my 2nd rodeo with the L6SE. I don't believe the L6SE is anywhere near as powerful as a midbass crossed low as the Exodus is. And there's plenty of data to back it up. Mechanically, the L6SE is spec'd by the mfg at 8mm, which is where the Exodus is still linear (up to 9mm; under 10% distortion spec as tested on the klippel last year).
Looking at the throw measured by the Klippel - the maximum measured; not just the linear values derived from this test - the L6SE is at about 7mm by suspension and 7.5mm by Bl. 
The Exodus measures at about 12.5mm via suspension and Bl. So, the Exodus has a good 5mm more throw on the L6SE. 

Here's a link to the Exodus:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...specs/114921-exodus-anarchy-klippel-data.html

That's why I said what I said. I have listened to both and tested both as well; don't assume I haven't. I put drivers through their paces hardcore. I've pushed both drivers hard and always stay around during testing. The bottom line is the Exodus is a much more robust driver in terms of low end output than the l6se due to it's throw. The measured Fs is lower on the Exodus as well, but by so little that it's negligible. The Sd is about the same (think I measured them both to be near 134cm^2). Don't forget the phase plug on the Hybrid as well. That may or may not affect it's output simply because there's that little bit less of actual moving cone area (which makes a driver like this hard to derive T/S specs for appreciably).

I'm not knocking the l6SE at all, so the fanboys can chill out. The driver looks to be pretty nice and I can't find anything glaringly bad at all. The low end output leaves some to be desired in comparison with some other options but it's pretty much par for the course with some of the other drivers I've tested lately (AT 18H, Dyn 650). The However, the Scan illuminator and the exodus both trump near any other 6.5/7" driver I've tested yet and the Vifa ne180w is a very potent driver as well. 

That's my take. 

- Erin


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I also think the Dyn 650 has very good low end output but it Klippeled under 4mm linear excursion if I remember right. I'm not sure if Erin pushed it much past that to find how much mechanical excursion it has. What I'm looking forward to is the blind listening test coming up with these drivers. I want to see peoples' subjective opinions on all of these midbasses that have been tested. I personally think the Dyn 650 has the best midbass of any 6.5" I've heard but it will be nice to see others' opinions with many of the variables taken out.


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## GLN305 (Nov 2, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Come on, man...
> What's different from me giving an opinion and you giving an opinion?
> Because I disagree you leave a comment like this?
> 
> ...


No, the remark seemed snide to me and others. Matter of fact I was asked what I did to you. I couldn't think of anything other than 'thank you's" and PM's with offers to send drivers to test.

As far as the comparison, I give most of the data very little consideration. I have bought speakers based on data and was severely disappointed, then replaced them with less spectacular data-wise and was more than pleased. But I do use certain data and specs when considering drivers

I do appreciate the Klippel numbers and I am glad to see that wasn't a snide remark directed at me.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

GLN305 said:


> No, the remark seemed snide to me and others. Matter of fact I was asked what I did to you. I couldn't think of anything other than 'thank you's" and PM's with offers to send drivers to test.
> 
> As far as the comparison, I give most of the data very little consideration. I have bought speakers based on data and was severely disappointed, then replaced them with less spectacular data-wise and was more than pleased. But I do use certain data and specs when considering drivers
> 
> I do appreciate the Klippel numbers and I am glad to see that wasn't a snide remark directed at me.


It's he nature of a late-o-clock reply via iPhone. My sincerest apologies.


My disagreement isn't only rooted in data but personal listening and witnessing of the drivers' mechanical capabilities during the testing. Both drivers did well in regards to mechanical noise but it is very obvious, at least to me, the exodus is a much more proficient driver down low because it simply has the chops. That thing is a beast in every sense of the word. A killer motor and the suspension capable of letting the motor performance shine rather than hinder it (like many xbl type drivers I've tested and used). I nearly sold my scan illuminators for them until I realized the illuminators had more throw and come area (not to mention higher sensitivity). 



As far as your feelings toward the data, I'm sorry to hear that. I think there's a lot to be gained from it. It's just all dependent upon what and how you're looking for it in addition to how you plan to or do actually use it. Next time some of my results don't hake out how you expected, post it up and lets all try to figure out why. We can all learn a bit. Ultimately that's why I do the testing. 

And again, I meant nothing bad in my brief reply. I was just trying to quickly relay my disagreement with your take. Nothing more. But I'll again apologize because I totally understand why it was taken that way. Looks that way to me now that you've mentioned it. 



Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> It's he nature of a late-o-clock reply via iPhone. My sincerest apologies.
> 
> 
> My disagreement isn't only rooted in data but personal listening and witnessing of the drivers' mechanical capabilities during the testing. Both drivers did well in regards to mechanical noise but it is very obvious, at least to me, the exodus is a much more proficient driver down low because it simply has the chops. That thing is a beast in every sense of the word. A killer motor and the suspension capable of letting the motor performance shine rather than hinder it (like many xbl type drivers I've tested and used). I nearly sold my scan illuminators for them until I realized the illuminators had more throw and come area (not to mention higher sensitivity).
> ...


Erin, what are your Scans highpassed at? 

I'm wondering if the two drivers mentioned would be of any benefit to someone like me who prefers a highpass of 80-90hz with a fairly steep cutoff that might see 4-5mm of excursion at full volume. I got the ok to install some stuff in the GF's car and the Scans look tempting, it's either that or a pro audio approach.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

They're not high passed. Playing all the way down to 0hz. AP enclosure. 
I've had many gtg's and attended many shows and no one has found fault (mechanically) with them. They flat out hammer. If they were a woman, I'd be arrested for stalking. I've got a odd obsession with them. 

Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> They're not high passed. Playing all the way down to 0hz. AP enclosure.
> I've had many gtg's and attended many shows and no one has found fault (mechanically) with them. They flat out hammer. If they were a woman, I'd be arrested for stalking. I've got a odd obsession with them.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


That's quite impressive. Where do they start to roll off at/what are the subs lowpassed at?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Subs are at 40, iirc. 
The rolling on the scans are around 30hz, iirc. I decreased the Q by tuning the enclosure so they're pretty flat, relatively. Thanks to cabin gain, they play down low without any help. In fact, most everything I have on the EQ are cuts. I have two bands with a 0.5dB boost and thats in the tweeter range. All the rest are cuts. Some are pretty severe cuts to help fight cabin issues and some are just fine tuning things. 

The scans are definitely worth considering. If the install can support it, you really dint even have to have subs with them. For a two way system, I honestly don't think they can be beat. Everything has its trade offs, though. 

Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> For a two way system, I honestly don't think they can be beat.


I'll be the judge of that!!! 


No, really....I (along with several others) will be judging that soon !


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Subs are at 40, iirc.
> The rolling on the scans are around 30hz, iirc. I decreased the Q by tuning the enclosure so they're pretty flat, relatively. Thanks to cabin gain, they play down low without any help. In fact, most everything I have on the EQ are cuts. I have two bands with a 0.5dB boost and thats in the tweeter range. All the rest are cuts. Some are pretty severe cuts to help fight cabin issues and some are just fine tuning things.
> 
> The scans are definitely worth considering. If the install can support it, you really dint even have to have subs with them. For a two way system, I honestly don't think they can be beat. Everything has its trade offs, though.
> ...


My biggest dilemma is they would be going in a Murano which comes with a 6x9 and looks like it could possibly accept a 10" in there (haven't looked too hard). Do I go with a hard working 6.5" or an 8 or 10"... Each has it's advantages. I guess that's for another thread. I have enough room to run them in the rear of the TL.... It might be a waste of a nice speaker but with the MS8 maybe it would be worth it. I'll wait for the results of the shootout.

Jerry, looks like I'll be turning those 650s right around to you.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Seems like there is some confusion going on regarding excursion and perceived loudness.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Erin, I'm sure I could find the limits of those Scans. Would you like me to try if I judged your car?

I don't know where you would draw the line between midbass and a woofer...I personally would consider the Exodus a woofer and not a midbass.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Erin, I'm sure I could find the limits of those Scans. Would you like me to try if I judged your car?
> 
> I don't know where you would draw the line between midbass and a woofer...I personally would consider the Exodus a woofer and not a midbass.


Really? Come on now you can make any system come to its knees unless it is tuned incredibly conservative. But then again I can tune any system so that you can't bring it to its knees. You knew what he meant. Besides after hearing his car multiple times you wouldn't bring it to its knees with ANY SQ judging. 

Woofer or midbass?!? Thats really a valid question? What in your mind is the difference? Because every midbass I have seen is a woofer. You could argue midbass vs minisub but the exodus would seem to do both at least somewhat well. IMO it is much more of a midbass (60 hz to 250hz). Is that my ideal passband for a midbass? No, but it seems very popular on this forum. 

If you don't want the midbass to dig low then displacement is not a big factor in your decision. If you, do it is. Simple as that. How much displacement you need is typically a matter of personal taste but with all other things being equal I would never pick the driver with less displacement. It's kind of like having too much horsepower with equal MPG. Would you turn it down? Hell no!

You can bash the Illuminator for other reasons: price, mounting depth, etc. but acoustically this thing has made me a believer.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Honestly, I don't understand why something as simple as excursion can be so heated. All the other things (midbass vs woofer vs midrange) are all part of application. Choose what works best for the desires application. Sometimes one covers more uses than another. 

I too don't like the anarchy as a midrange but it clearly has serious throw for use down low. I don't know why there's argument about it. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

npdang said:


> Seems like there is some confusion going on regarding excursion and perceived loudness.


Could you elaborate, this has always interested me.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

With no high pass on the 7s, I could break them or make them cry for help if I got on it in a Top 30 style round where I had my own music. And I'm not talking about using rap or electronica...though I do have a Tupac track on my judging disks.

Jurasic Lunch and Flight of the Cosmic Hippo listened to at the volume level I like to listen to would bottom the speakers out and make them hurt.

Yeah it is a valid question and distinction. A midbass doesn't really need to play down past 80. Below that isn't midbass, that's bass especially at 50 and 60 hertz. A woofer would play the bass better.

And who the hell is bashing the Illuminator? All I said was I could make them cry for help if I got on a pair of them with no high pass.




SSSnake said:


> Really? Come on now you can make any system come to its knees unless it is tuned incredibly conservative. But then again I can tune any system so that you can't bring it to its knees. You knew what he meant. Besides after hearing his car multiple times you wouldn't bring it to its knees with ANY SQ judging.
> 
> Woofer or midbass?!? Thats really a valid question? What in your mind is the difference? Because every midbass I have seen is a woofer. You could argue midbass vs minisub but the exodus would seem to do both at least somewhat well. IMO it is much more of a midbass (60 hz to 250hz). Is that my ideal passband for a midbass? No, but it seems very popular on this forum.
> 
> ...


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> With no high pass on the 7s, I could break them or make them cry for help if I got on it in a Top 30 style round where I had my own music. And I'm not talking about using rap or electronica...though I do have a Tupac track on my judging disks.
> 
> Jurasic Lunch and Flight of the Cosmic Hippo listened to at the volume level I like to listen to would bottom the speakers out and make them hurt.
> 
> ...


What Tupac track would that be?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It's not my favorite Tupac track, but it's Hail Mary. I also have The Wind Cries Mary on the disk.

Ironically my wife's name is Mary.

But when Victor gets down low on Flight of the Cosmic Hippo somewhere around a minute into the song, it can make subs and midbasses wish for help if you are listening at a decent volume level.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> With no high pass on the 7s, I could break them or make them cry for help if I got on it in a Top 30 style round where I had my own music. And I'm not talking about using rap or electronica...though I do have a Tupac track on my judging disks.
> 
> Jurasic Lunch and Flight of the Cosmic Hippo listened to at the volume level I like to listen to would bottom the speakers out and make them hurt.
> 
> ...


*sigh*

I could blow any speaker in the world if I really wanted to. Any one of us could. We could blow SPL geared subwoofers in to a new atmosphere if we tried. The point is: we don't try. We listen to our system and if it's set up well, it's set up well. If my illuminators couldn't handle the abuse I put on them or the judges put on them, then I wouldn't run them without a high pass. Period. 

The illuminators have _serious_ throw as documented by testing and listening and IME (as well as many others') they perform just well down low and don't require a high pass filter in all situations. My enclosure is not free-air; it's ap which helps control the excursion and thermal ability to some degree.

My 18wu's - in my car - do just fine and I've yet to have anyone complain about them whether it be in a competition setting or get together setting. My point wasn't to say they can't be blown to smithereens. My point was that they have the ability to play down in to woofer range if the install can handle it and can provide a lot of people a perfectly capable woofer/midrange as part of a 2-way, without a subwoofer. To me, that's a huge benefit. Not many other drivers in this size category can readily do that. 

Regardless, I'm just smitten with my setup. No offense, but I don't need you to tell me how awesome you are at putting a speaker through its paces. Like I said, we could all blow a speaker if we wanted to. But the way I have things setup, they play just fine. I max'd out "Kickstart My Heart" yesterday and they did just fine. Just don't put your foot on the kicks if you don't like tactile feedback (still no real way to master that without mods I am not prepared to do).


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

If you don't want someone saying they could make them hurt, don't brag about how no one has yet complained about them. Cause my loud is probably different than some else's loud. If you aren't doing 115 dB+ full range then it isn't that loud IMO.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Or else we are going to start calling your car the Magic Civic


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And to clarify, you do have a filter on the mids...not an electrical high pass, but an acoustical 3rd order filter being the AP system.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> If you don't want someone saying they could make them hurt, don't brag about how no one has yet complained about them. Cause my loud is probably different than some else's loud. If you aren't doing 115 dB+ full range then it isn't that loud IMO.



Who's bragging? The guy asked me a simple question and it turned in to you talking about how you could blow them up. No judge has complained about mechanical noise and no listener in general. That's a pretty large collection of people in the last 1.5 years. That's not bragging. That's just stating a fact. If you think that's bragging, then I have no idea how to make it appear otherwise. I didn't say I don't have room for improvement, but mechanically, they've held up completely fine.

Again, I'm not saying they can't be blown. It's asinine to think otherwise. You seemed to take the statement and just run with it to a place it didn't need to be taken.

PS: If you need 115dB from 3' away (typical listening distance in car) "full range", you need to seriously get your hearing checked. I'm not even joking. That's a whole other level of loud that just doesn't even make sense. Hell, my stress testing of drivers is 96dB @ 3ft. And some say that even that is unnecessary. I understand stress testing a system now and again, but if you literally mean 115dB in the car is only the beginning of what you consider loud, then I'd seriously be worried about long term hearing damage.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Old school systems could rock 115-125 dB on their front stages on L'Daddy all day long. My car at Finals in 01 had a processor issue that cut the subs off during SPL, but I ran my front stage and it was 117 dB. A couple of years later with the horns, 8" midranges and 8" midbasses it was much louder than that.

It makes perfect sense. It's called realism. Ever sat next to a concert piano or someone playing acoustic drums? You need that kind of volume to recreate live instruments at live levels.

I'm dead serious, 115 is the beginning. You would have hated having Harry Kimura and I judge your car at ESN in 07 (I think it was 07)...cause we dropped the volume knob. When I play a drum track, I want the impact from the snare and cymbals making me flinch just like they would if I was standing next to them.

There are too many pu$$y stereos in competition. Some of us do remember the old days.

You want realism as your ultimate goal, you damn better bring the volume with it.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

OSHA says 15 minutes of 115dB will cause permanent hearing damage. 

http://homerecording.about.com/od/mixinglivesound/a/Earplugs-101.htm

Listen wisely, my friend. 

Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yawn.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Fight....fight....fight.....fight!!! 

Reminds me of High School! lol


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## jcollin76 (Oct 26, 2010)

I hope we don't need this...









Sorry, couldn't resist. Lol


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I think the bottom line is, everyone has different goals. I have listened to Bob Morrow's Tacoma and Buzzman's Benz, both highly regarded in the SQ realm. They were both phenomenally executed and sounded great technically speaking with great staging and depth, but neither of them grabbed me by the horns (maybe because the install didn't include any?)  Bob's blew me away at how dynamic it was considering he was tweeterless and ran a pair of L4s in the kicks and some 5.25" midbass, and his goal was to show what could be accomplished with very small/minimalist drivers. Job well done, I say. That being said, I didn't catch myself tapping my hand on the steering wheel, getting those chills at the back of my neck, or grinning ear to ear. It wasn't "an experience." It didn't envelop me. Buzz's Benz was very similar. Sounded great, but it wasn't an emotional experience for me. That's not to say it isn't for HIM, and that's the important distinction. Different vehicle, different owner, different goals. It may come down to musical tastes, as both of them prefer jazz and softer 'small club' type music, whereas I prefer Tool, A Perfect Circle, and Deftones, but like Jason said, when I do an install, I want the kickdrums to hit me in the ****ing chest. I want my kidneys to file a restraining order. 

What I've accomplished with my latest build with 150 watts per woofer and 60 watts per horn/midrange really has blown me away, and has spoken to the science behind efficiency and the nature of that 'pro audio' impactful sound. The energy coming off the pair of 18N862 rivals the pair of W15GTi I was feeding 1,500w, and the BMS woofs are barely visibly moving. There is something to be said for efficiency, and I have yet to find a conventional home or car audio driver that offers the same perceived impact/loudness characteristics to recreate the 'live experience' as a pro audio driver. The tradeoff, of course, is space. You can fit a pair of 6.5" woofs down in your kicks that do fine down to 30hz in your listening habits. I have a pair of 18" woofers/midbass, 8" midrange, and horns. Everything comes with its compromises. I prefer a setup that scares listeners when the first pair of snares in APC's 'Judith' hits.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Come on, man...
> What's different from me giving an opinion and you giving an opinion?
> Because I disagree you leave a comment like this?
> 
> ...


Whatever low end output a midbass speaker has matters only if a person has a desire to cross them that low to begin with.

If someone intends to cross their midbass around 80hz, this is all pretty meaningless. Dynaudio recommends crossing the Eso2 650 at 100hz, for example. 

Everyone seems consumed with playing their midbass as low as possible. Where does this leave the sub? Isn't there a point where the best subwoofer will outperform the best midbass when it comes to low end? 

Likewise, isn't there a point where the best tweeter outperforms any and all widebanders in the upper frequencies?


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Subs are at 40, iirc.
> The rolling on the scans are around 30hz, iirc. I decreased the Q by tuning the enclosure so they're pretty flat, relatively. Thanks to cabin gain, they play down low without any help. In fact, most everything I have on the EQ are cuts. I have two bands with a 0.5dB boost and thats in the tweeter range. All the rest are cuts. Some are pretty severe cuts to help fight cabin issues and some are just fine tuning things.
> 
> The scans are definitely worth considering. If the install can support it, you really dint even have to have subs with them. For a two way system, I honestly don't think they can be beat. Everything has its trade offs, though.
> ...


With a 2-way, where would you cross the Illums? They don't play very high, or do they? Would you keep the tweet close to the midbass in this scenario?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

rain27 said:


> Whatever low end output a midbass speaker has matters only if a person has a desire to cross them that low to begin with.
> 
> If someone intends to cross their midbass around 80hz, this is all pretty meaningless. Dynaudio recommends crossing the Eso2 650 at 100hz, for example.
> 
> ...


I fully agree with you and I'm one of those that run the subs up to 80-90hz. Dyn recommends a 6db slope, just wanted to point that out. I've thought about running mine at the Dyn suggested crossover points just to see how they sound. That would mean 100-650hz/6db and 650-3khz/6db for the 430.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

One more thing...

To say that the Hybrid L6SE leaves a bit to be desired on the low end compared to the Illuminator is no different than saying the Illuminator leaves a bit to be desired at the high end compared to the Hybrid L6SE (assuming someone wants to cross their midbass as high as possible).

Whether one or the other is inadequate in one area or another depends on what the goals of the individual are.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Don't you just love this forum?  

Kelvin


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

rain27 said:


> One more thing...
> 
> To say that the Hybrid L6SE leaves a bit to be desired on the low end compared to the Illuminator is no different than saying the Illuminator leaves a bit to be desired at the high end compared to the Hybrid L6SE (assuming someone wants to cross their midbass as high as possible).
> 
> Whether one or the other is inadequate in one area or another depends on what the goals of the individual are.


I don't disagree. I think I said your last sentence already. 

Much ado about nothing. 




Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

subwoofery said:


> Don't you just love this forum?
> 
> Kelvin


Less so every day.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Guys, what is the point of this "challenge"? I don't see where Erin ever extended it or stated nobody could blow his Scans even if they tried. He said he runs no high pass and finds no fault in doing so. That isn't the same IMHO. 

Not everybody has the exact same goal in this hobby. He might not feel the need to play his system at 115db daily...or ever. I know when he ran HD sweeps it was around 104db and the results were AT LEAST 30db below the fundamental. His system is well balanced and the subs don't pull to the rear. If he is happy with that, and I believe he is (and rightfully so), then who should question it. 

If your goal is sheer output above all else...cool. If you goal is flat response above all else...cool too. There's room for everybody here. Hell, there are 8" midbass threads from Npdang where he stated they could be used for a subless system. I don't remember seeing anybody attack him for those comments. Isn't that really all Erin is doing? He just added subs for a bit more output at the lowest levels that he felt was needed. 

Maybe I just don't get it, but as an observer it looks like somebody is trying push Erin's buttons for simply answering a question somebody asked him. 

One last thing. I set the maximum output level of my system. I can set it at 120db or 85db, that's my choice. That level will be attached to a set max volume. In life or competition...that's all you get. If I tell you max output is at 25 out of 32...that's all you get. If you aren't happy with it, walk away disappointed or dock me points. If you listen at 25 and blow a speaker, shame on me for setting it up poorly. If you listen at 26+ to "see what it can do" and YOU blow a speaker, it's not gonna end well.


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## ragnaroksq (Mar 14, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> It makes perfect sense. It's called realism. Ever sat next to a concert piano or someone playing acoustic drums? You need that kind of volume to recreate live instruments at live levels.
> 
> There are too many pu$$y stereos in competition. Some of us do remember the old days.
> 
> You want realism as your ultimate goal, you damn better bring the volume with it.


2 thumbs up


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And before this gets misconstrued...I am not going to try to blow people's stuff up when I judge or listen to a car. Equipment is too expensive to do such a thing, never mind the fact that only an ass would try to damage someone's stuff. I have heard lots of cars that I really loved that could not play loudly. I would not dock or knock points for not being able to do that, but in a Top 30 type round where realism is a category, I will reward cars that can pull off a totally realistic play back experience. Because I want my car to have the dynamic headroom to play loudly does not mean anything while I judge...in fact my own car probably will not be able to play as loudly and with the visceral feeling that I really like. Nor do I judge a car WAO for the entire time. I will turn it up to a point where it is loud, but never too loud that it is or will hurt something.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Jason, that last reply is perfect. Why can't they all be so poignant yet polite? Lol. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Tis a mystery fo sure.

I have heard of judges back in the day who used to try to blow people's stuff up, and I always thought only an ******* would TRY to mess someone's pride and joy up. This is an expensive hobby, jobs are hard to come by, and money is tight everywhere...why in god's name would someone try to mess someone's stuff up that they spent their hard earned money on to build/buy/drive and enter a show? I would literally beat some judge's ass and get banned from competition if I ever saw/heard someone doing that to my car. Because I give my speakers hell once in while does not mean that I do not treat someone else's stuff without the up most respect when I am listening. Generally I will ask the person how loud can it go (on the dial) before I listen...and then I will get up to that point for a bit on a song, or if it's really good a couple of songs...or conversely if it falling apart really fast, I back off of the knob really fast.

I don't want people to get it all twisted like I am out to blow someone's stereo up or I enjoy doing something *******-ish like that...cause I know I wouldn't want to be on the opposite side of the fence.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Jason likes high efficiency pro-audio 7"s ported. Erin likes HIFI low efficiency but high linearity and excursion 7"s with very little phase distortion (by not using a crossover or a vent). These are polar opposite methodologies for a similar size driver. No wonder you guys clash. 

Output vs. lower group delay, what to do what to do.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Sort of...I'd rather have 8s or 10s.

But you are making a misleading assumption in saying the proaudio drivers aren't highly linear.

And Erin IS using a crossover, the AP system is a 3rd order acoustic crossover...much like a vented enclosure.

Can you hear the group delay? I can hear the output.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm just wondering how the past 2 pages of this thread have ANYTHING to do with the actual thread topic!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

They don't. I made the mistake of mentioning the illuminator as akin to the exodus which was compared to the hybrid. It went downhill from there. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Sort of...I'd rather have 8s or 10s.
> 
> But you are making a misleading assumption in saying the proaudio drivers aren't highly linear.
> 
> ...


I think either you, me or Erin would rather have a 10". But if we have to make tradeoffs you pick different ones than we do. 

Proaudio drivers aren't highly linear when compared to the Exodus, SLS, or Illuminator. If you compare them to the L6, then hands down I'd rather have the B&C or BMS or 18Sound high excursion units, even for bass use. 

Good point on the crossover. 

Depends on the frequency. You have no problem venting midbasses, ones that play midrange at that, I do. I would only vent a dedicated sub, in HT. I don't want to have to match a vented driver with something underneath it either. In HT I would probably say vented alignments tend to give me a headache, and sealed units do have better noticeable time delay. I haven't double blinded tested my gut feeling but that's where I lay. I would vent in a home, I'd rather have satisfying output with a bit of time domain smear. But give me loads of IB or sealed surface area and stroke and bye bye vent. I have both subs and both mains vented in both my rooms at home because it's a decent tradeoff for a tight dorm. When I get my own large house it's going to be bye bye with the vents.


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## bkjay (Jul 7, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> They don't. I made the mistake of mentioning the illuminator as akin to the exodus which was compared to the hybrid. It went downhill from there.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


Sorry if my Xmax question sent this thread the wrong way


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It will be okay, we are all pretty much friends here anyways.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

BuickGN said:


> Could you elaborate, this has always interested me.


Well, just that having more excursion doesn't necessarily mean that you will have louder or better bass. Depending on the application, excursion isn't always a limiting factor. If you're crossing at 80hz to a sub, I'd rather have a higher sensitivity driver that can handle more power. 

For example the Illuminators are an expensive low q, low fs driver with relatively poor efficiency and low end sensitivity for free-air door mounting. The underhung motor also means typically less thermal powerhandling. Using a high q, high fs driver and highpassed at say 80hz with a 4th order rolloff could yield significantly more punch and kick in the midbass... without rattling the hell out of your doors due to all that lower frequency energy. As long as you have a sub to pickup below that, I find this application more preferable than using large motor drivers with tons of excursion. 

Also a little more distortion in the bass isn't always bad. It's hard to hear for one, and when you do hear it it tends to make the bass sound more "robust." BL compression can also subjectively make a mid/bass sound "faster/leaner" by emphasizing upper bass content over lower frequency content.

And vented designs using subsonic filters can benefit from greater thermal powerhandling than mechanical in achieving maximum output.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

That's one of the arguments I've recently had on here. I usually run the subs up to 80-90hz/24db with the same highpass on the midbass. Mine aren't high Q or high Fs but I can feed them a ton of power with a high highpass and they bang hard.

Thanks for the explanation, it definitely puts a different spin on things.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

npdang said:


> Well, just that having more excursion doesn't necessarily mean that you will have louder or better bass. Depending on the application, excursion isn't always a limiting factor. If you're crossing at 80hz to a sub, I'd rather have a higher sensitivity driver that can handle more power.
> 
> For example the Illuminators are an expensive low q, low fs driver with relatively poor efficiency and low end sensitivity for free-air door mounting. The underhung motor also means typically less thermal powerhandling. Using a high q, high fs driver and highpassed at say 80hz with a 4th order rolloff could yield significantly more punch and kick in the midbass... without rattling the hell out of your doors due to all that lower frequency energy. As long as you have a sub to pickup below that, I find this application more preferable than using large motor drivers with tons of excursion.
> 
> ...


yeah, thats the fastest way to screw up the scans benefits...put it in a free-air door....BUT somebody is gonna do it because of its klippel findings


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> Also a little more distortion in the bass isn't always bad. It's hard to hear for one, and when you do hear it it tends to make the bass sound more "robust." BL compression can also subjectively make a mid/bass sound "faster/leaner" by emphasizing upper bass content over lower frequency content.


Again if accuracy is not your goal then the above statement is absolutely true from your perspective. But it is a subjective opinion based upon personnel preference (it just happens to be a personnel preference shared by more than a few folks). Nothing wrong with that but it does need to be put context.



> And vented designs using subsonic filters can benefit from greater thermal powerhandling than mechanical in achieving maximum output.


Yep but vented designs are TOUGH to pull off in a fairly stock door or kickpanel without tons of port noise (been there tried that).

We can all agree that there a tons of different approaches to getting where you want to go in car audio. The single reason the Illuminator works better in my car than anything else I tried (2118, AE TD6H, Seas Nextel W18NX, and others) was the excursion capability. I, like most others, have some funkiness going on in the midbass pass band. Unfortunately the issues were toward the bottom of the passband (around 80 hz) and NONE of the other drivers allowed the option of tuning most of the issue out of the system. They ALL ran out of excursion before I could get things cleaned up to my satisfaction. Now this is a specific instance and may not apply to most users but I would be willing to bet all of us have some issues in the midbass that need addressing and these things are SAFE bets to provide the ability to address those issues.

Alright enough nut hugging on the Illums. Back to the regularly scheduled programming...

How 'bout them Hybrid Audio L6SEs?!?


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

SSSnake; said:


> The single reason the Illuminator works better in my car than anything else I tried (2118, AE TD6H, Seas Nextel W18NX, and others) was the excursion capability.


Are you using the Illums in the door? Are they suitable for a leaky door enclosure?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

SSSnake said:


> Again if accuracy is not your goal then the above statement is absolutely true from your perspective. But it is a subjective opinion based upon personnel preference (it just happens to be a personnel preference shared by more than a few folks). Nothing wrong with that but it does need to be put context.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Saved me a lot of posting.  In Zaph's words, distortion in the bass region is often associated with pure output but it's really just mud. Mark K. also has a fantastic article about harmonic distortion creeping up in the lower midrange from bass drivers. I side more on his side in that high distortion in bass drivers should be of utmost concern. 

If there is any subjective input I can give on high quality midbass is that the speaker should dissapear. Snap, punch, kick what have you is not true reproduction. It's just a stepping stone for car audio fans moving from OEM midbasses that are clearly inadequate to something that can at least be heard. The peak of the reproduction is achieved when you frankly need a meter to realize just how loud bass drivers are. I was stupefied at how much the mic read for the SLS 6.5". To a nondiscerning user their performance might even be described as too sub like, or innefficient. In reality they are properly optimized, high quality drivers, they don't draw any attention because they don't bug. I suspect Illuminators will do even better. 

6.5" drivers with less than 4mm of xmax are inadequate for most program material in a car, and the same goes for 80hz filter especially with the steep slopes people use.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

yes, we all are aware of tradeoffs regarding low end response, and sensitivity. 

the data is there to help you understand what you hear and hopefully make you a wiser shopper. that's it. if you need a driver with low end throw at the expense of high end response or sensitivity, so be it. if you don't need low end throw and want/prefer the tradeoff of high sensitivity or cleaner response (not saying these are mutually exclusive) then so be it.
I have yet to hear anyone say they preferred a woofer with more distortion, all things the same... but there's a first time for everything. regardless, the data should help you determine which purchase will benefit you. 

]


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

SSSnake said:


> ...Unfortunately the issues were toward the bottom of the passband (around 80 hz) and NONE of the other drivers allowed the option of tuning most of the issue out of the system. They ALL ran out of excursion before I could get things cleaned up to my satisfaction...


Could you explain what you're doing with your EQ for that coz I have a hard time picturing it... 

Thanks, 
Kelvin


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> yes, we all are aware of tradeoffs regarding low end response, and sensitivity.
> 
> the data is there to help you understand what you hear and hopefully make you a wiser shopper. that's it. if you need a driver with low end throw at the expense of high end response or sensitivity, so be it. if you don't need low end throw and want/prefer the tradeoff of high sensitivity or cleaner response (not saying these are mutually exclusive) then so be it.
> *I have yet to hear anyone say they preferred a woofer with more distortion, all things the same... *but there's a first time for everything. regardless, the data should help you determine which purchase will benefit you.
> ...


Ohh there are some... They just don't know yet  

Kelvin


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## art1618 (Feb 7, 2012)

i wish i had the mental capacity to learn what all the squiggly lines mean and on the graph thingy there.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

cvjoint said:


> Saved me a lot of posting.  In Zaph's words, distortion in the bass region is often associated with pure output but it's really just mud. Mark K. also has a fantastic article about harmonic distortion creeping up in the lower midrange from bass drivers. I side more on his side in that high distortion in bass drivers should be of utmost concern.
> 
> If there is any subjective input I can give on high quality midbass is that the speaker should dissapear. Snap, punch, kick what have you is not true reproduction. It's just a stepping stone for car audio fans moving from OEM midbasses that are clearly inadequate to something that can at least be heard. The peak of the reproduction is achieved when you frankly need a meter to realize just how loud bass drivers are. I was stupefied at how much the mic read for the SLS 6.5". To a nondiscerning user their performance might even be described as too sub like, or innefficient. In reality they are properly optimized, high quality drivers, they don't draw any attention because they don't bug. I suspect Illuminators will do even better.
> 
> 6.5" drivers with less than 4mm of xmax are inadequate for most program material in a car, and the same goes for 80hz filter especially with the steep slopes people use.


You forgot to qualify your post with the disclaimer that this is your opinion.:laugh:


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Come on, man...
> What's different from me giving an opinion and you giving an opinion?
> Because I disagree you leave a comment like this?
> 
> ...


Erin, have you ever checked out the Seas W18NX? DrTelepathySQ reccomended the Seas over the Scan Rev and I have had the W18NX for many years now and have been very satisified with it.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> Could you explain what you're doing with your EQ for that coz I have a hard time picturing it...


Sure. I had a fairly broad dip/null at 80hz. What I mean is the null was sitting at 80 with reduced output on both sides (down to the high pass at 60hz and up to around 100hz). With the 2118s and AEs the drivers were already rolling off around 80-90hz (even with cabin gain). With the Illums, the response was rising with the increasing cabin gain. This allowed me to put some EQ in on both sides of the null to make it much narrower. Then I increased the low pass freq of the sub to 90hz but kept the sub output about 3 to 5db lower than the mids in the overlapping freqs (I had to use a couple of filters to make this work). It didn't remove the null in the midbass by any means. However, it did go from me getting out of the car every day wondering WTF I was going to do to fix it to enjoying the music each and every day.

BTW - I tried to do the overlap of the sub with the other drivers and the sub bass always pulled to the back (never could get enough output in the overlapping freqs to mask the sub). Now I've got the best up front bass I have ever had. I am still tweaking but is pretty darn good.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> Erin, have you ever checked out the Seas W18NX? DrTelepathySQ reccomended the Seas over the Scan Rev and I have had the W18NX for many years now and have been very satisified with it.


Not Erin but...

IMO/IME the W18NX is a very good driver for this application as well. Not up to the Illum but definitely better than the 2118s and AEs. Again - in my application.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

SSSnake said:


> Sure. I had a fairly broad dip/null at 80hz. What I mean is the null was sitting at 80 with reduced output on both sides (down to the high pass at 60hz and up to around 100hz). With the 2118s and AEs the drivers were already rolling off around 80-90hz (even with cabin gain). With the Illums, the response was rising with the increasing cabin gain. This allowed me to put some EQ in on both sides of the null to make it much narrower. Then I increased the low pass freq of the sub to 90hz but kept the sub output about 3 to 5db lower than the mids in the overlapping freqs (I had to use a couple of filters to make this work). It didn't remove the null in the midbass by any means. However, it did go from me getting out of the car every day wondering WTF I was going to do to fix it to enjoying the music each and every day.
> 
> BTW - I tried to do the overlap of the sub with the other drivers and the sub bass always pulled to the back (never could get enough output in the overlapping freqs to mask the sub). Now I've got the best up front bass I have ever had. I am still tweaking but is pretty darn good.


Are you running low inductance subs and are your midbass IB?


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> Are you running low inductance subs and are your midbass IB?


Yes, AE IB 15s and yes, IB through the frame rails (very free flowing).


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

SSSnake said:


> Sure. I had a fairly broad dip/null at 80hz. What I mean is the null was sitting at 80 with reduced output on both sides (down to the high pass at 60hz and up to around 100hz). With the 2118s and AEs the drivers were already rolling off around 80-90hz (even with cabin gain). With the Illums, the response was rising with the increasing cabin gain. This allowed me to put some EQ in on both sides of the null to make it much narrower. Then I increased the low pass freq of the sub to 90hz but kept the sub output about 3 to 5db lower than the mids in the overlapping freqs (I had to use a couple of filters to make this work). It didn't remove the null in the midbass by any means. However, it did go from me getting out of the car every day wondering WTF I was going to do to fix it to enjoying the music each and every day.
> 
> BTW - I tried to do the overlap of the sub with the other drivers and the sub bass always pulled to the back (never could get enough output in the overlapping freqs to mask the sub). Now I've got the best up front bass I have ever had. I am still tweaking but is pretty darn good.


... do whatever you need to make it work  That's car audio right there... 
Good to know it works for you. 
I guess the dip is due to the midbass location. Did you try to move it around? Or at least aim differently?
Is your T/A between the midbass and subwoofer spot on? 

Kelvin


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I've done some very interesting testing, I think the null at 70ish is not a problem in the car, at least not in mine. One day I may have time to post the video.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

It's there in mine. Most cars I measure have it. It's always due to the same side drivers of where the measurement is taken. For example, in the drivers seat the null is from the left side stage only. Move to the passengers seat and the left side looks great but the right side has a null in the same location. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> It's there in mine. Most cars I measure have it. It's always due to the same side drivers of where the measurement is taken. For example, in the drivers seat the null is from the left side stage only. Move to the passengers seat and the left side looks great but the right side has a null in the same location.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


If it's there for every car... Would it be wrong to assume that the null is due to the length of the car's cabin? 
It seems like the null appears just before cabin gain takes place...

Kelvin


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

If I remember correctly the null on mine corresponded to the distance to the back seat.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> It's there in mine. Most cars I measure have it. It's always due to the same side drivers of where the measurement is taken. For example, in the drivers seat the null is from the left side stage only. Move to the passengers seat and the left side looks great but the right side has a null in the same location.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


Same findings.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> I've done some very interesting testing, I think the null at 70ish is not a problem in the car, at least not in mine. One day I may have time to post the video.


Very interested! It wreaked havoc in mine for two years. But this car was the worst I've seen.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Well personally, I've never run out of excursion with any of the dozens of drivers I've used free-air in the doors when high passed at 80hz. It's actually hard for me to imagine how that would happen. If there's some kind of cancellation issue, I don't think throwing more power/output at the problem is the best way of solving it. I have however run into issues with not getting enough kick and punch from these low q/low fs/low efficiency drivers.

I also feel that accuracy to the recording sounds good up to a point, then it just sounds bad when you go overboard  With a lot of my old home audio stuff it might have sounded more accurate to the recording than my current gear, but it sure as hell wasn't more accurate to what I believe real life music sounds like. In the end only you can decide what you prefer.

Interestingly, almost every time I've demo'ed my car to someone they always seem to prefer the higher sensitivity lower xmax driver over the low sensitivity high xmax driver. I don't think most people can hear the difference in distortion until the driver completely unloads. While I can hear it, it certainly isn't offensive and I couldn't imagine someone saying it sounds like mud. What is certainly audible however is the lack of dynamics in the upper midbass and the extra rattling in my doors from all the low frequency output. 

No one is saying that all things being equal that more distortion is better... but when are all things ever equal? It's usually a LOT more complicated than that. There's a reason why companies like Waves produce distortion generators like the Maxxbass processor... or signal buffers that try to emulate SET distortion characteristics.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> To a nondiscerning user their performance might even be described as too sub like, or innefficient. In reality they are properly optimized, high quality drivers, they don't draw any attention because they don't bug.


This is exactly what I'm driving at. That BL compression, added distortion etc., can oftentimes make a mid/bass sound more robust, faster, punchier, etc. Even if it isn't true to the recording, it may sound more lifelike to someone or they may just prefer that type of sound.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

npdang said:


> Well personally, I've never run out of excursion with any of the dozens of drivers I've used free-air in the doors when high passed at 80hz. It's actually hard for me to imagine how that would happen. If there's some kind of cancellation issue, I don't think throwing more power/output at the problem is the best way of solving it. I have however run into issues with not getting enough kick and punch from these low q/low fs/low efficiency drivers.


80hz for most 7" drivers isn't really a concern in the car. The reason high excursion was brought up was for the application where crossing low helps mitigate other issues and the mechanical xmax is of concern as well. If I could cross at 80hz (and therefore no longer have the issues that make me cross as low as I do; outside of the context of this thread) I certainly would and excursion wouldn't be my primary selling point. However, it would still be something I'd be paying attention to (along with mechanical excursion capabilities). 
I still believe that higher excursion is beneficial but I don't see much point in really arguing it going forward since it's all application driven. IOW, I'll agree to disagree. I think we've all seen a fair share of points either side. Ultimately the user decides what is acceptable. That's really all any of us can do. 

So, again, it's all about compromise. Driver A may just flat out not work in certain applications whereas Driver B performs better, even though Driver A has a higher excursion rating (either in distortion or mechanical). It's a juggling act. The data tells you the story if you take the time to read it and perform your own analysis. No driver is one size fits all. Otherwise there would be no point in testing. 


Edit:
I will say that the reason I and so many others harp on excursion is because a LOT of people here will run a midbass driver to the brink of death. I used to do the same but have since realized that the levels I was playing the midbass region relateive to the 200hz+ region were just grossly overdone. I think we all kind of do that starting out, coming from the subwoofer/basshead side. Case in Point: How many "my midbasses are bangin!" threads have been posted? As you sort of 'mature' (bad choice of wording, I agree) and learn that an overly done midbass/subwoofer response is often the portion of the system that makes it all sound like junk and you learn to tune your system to a more realistic (and true to the recording) output level, you find that low end excursion isn't as important as you once thought. Of course, this assumes realistic volume levels and a more typical system. The exception is certainly those looking for very high output and using drivers that just can't keep up with the 200hz+ end of the spectrum and they do need a driver with either a lot of surface area or excursion.
/edit


FWIW, this is my last Klippel test. 

Hopefully this and the other drivers I've tested will help everyone to better understand what to listen for and what is and isn't important. Keep in mind that some things are important sometimes and other times, those same parameters may not be important at all. Vice Versa. 

- Erin


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

So, no more klippel testing for good?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorry to hear this is your last. I spent many mornings reading and enjoying your test results. There was a really nice burst of reviews there on some pretty interesting drivers.

I don't think we're in disagreement about anything. I just thought I'd present another side to things. You are exactly right that data is just data and having more is always better than having none. What sucks are the detractors that either disregard what's there, or those that choose to make premature/improper conclusions based on it.


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## estione (Jul 24, 2009)

Sorry to hear you wont be testing no more as i've always enjoyed reading your reveiws, But i thank you for the time and effort you have put in.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

That is unfortunate? What happened?


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