# "the big three" ok, tell me why?



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

I've seen this for years, watched the procedure even gain it's own nickname. I've had many cars with many systems....never done it, and never had any charging issues. Why is this process so widely deemed as necessary? Does upping the wire gauge increase the current produced by the alternator, of course not......would your battery charge if the ground was faulty from the alternator, once again, of course not. Yet this practice has gained widespread acceptance in our hobby, and is often one of the first modifications performed in many builds......I'm calling ********......now, tell me why I'm wrong!


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## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

This could get interesting with points and counterpoints.....


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

sq2k1 said:


> This could get interesting with points and counterpoints.....


Indeed, tis why I posted it. It's origionally derived from discussion in another thread, where it didn't get much arguement considering how widely accepted and recommended the process is. I thought that since it was a derail off the origional topic of that thread maybe folks were holding back their responses in respect of the forum. Still wanting to hear defense of this silly process, I figured I'd start a thread about it.....lol.


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

OK, I'll bite...

I guess the "big three" would become more and more relevant as the electrical requirements of a system depart from the factory supplied charging capabilities.

The "big three" will indeed allow a bit more capability from a non-upgraded charging system due to the enhancement of current passage provided with the upgrade, but is absolutely a must if you have a system which can draw high amperage.

It's all basic in principle, why are you calling BS?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

XSIV SPL said:


> The "big three" will indeed allow a bit more capability from a non-upgraded charging system due to the enhancement of current passage provided with the upgrade, but is absolutely a must if you have a system which can draw high amperage.
> 
> It's all basic in principle, why are you calling BS?


Because I feel the first statement in your quote is complete bull ****. No offense, but I really do.

If you are over drawing your electrical supply (ie; the batteries) how are you going to help by changing the path from your charging system?


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

.. if you believe in upgraded high current alternators how can you not believe in the Big 3 when in fact it should be performed before the alternator is upgraded ?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Aw cmon mr stokes....yer not usually one to hold back an opinion, lol. Wat ya thinkin?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

gstokes said:


> if you believe in upgraded high current alternators how can you not believe in the Big 3 when in fact it should be performed before the alternator is upgraded ?


Ah......where did I mention alternator upgrades?


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

You didn't and i didn't mean to imply you did, actually making an effort to be a bit more humble then i have in the past ..

Check this out,, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3EFGlHPFDk


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

claydo said:


> Because I feel the first statement in your quote is complete bull ****. No offense, but I really do.
> 
> If you are over drawing your electrical supply (ie; the batteries) how are you going to help by changing the path from your charging system?


Sorry, but my experience with factory DC charging systems is that the factory configuration is almost always not giving you the best it can deliver with the equipment which is there, usually due to losses which could be improved by doing a "big three" modification. You can actually improve your factory equipment charging ability by performing this "********" upgrade...

I'm far from factory at this point though, and there is almost nothing left of the original system... so what would I know?

We only modify when we have a clear need... I'm hoping you're getting that at least...


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

People feel good about themselves when they do something, as any hobby is about feeling good about yourself. Some people also making buck performing unnecessary upgrades to customer vehicles. Nothing wrong in making a buck or few, right? 
Example my 2012 4runner has 140A alternator and 2' run of 4awg copper wire to fuse box, I can use 2/00 welding cable there but it will not provide more reliable charge to the battery nor any benefit at all. Now if your vehicle 20years old that might be a different story. It`s your vehicle,your money and your time, upgrade away!


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## LaydSierra (Aug 20, 2009)

Not to derail a potential pissing match from one topic to another but do you feel there is no difference between OFC & CCA cable either??

The big 3 simply works is not a great answer I know but take the time to test it yourself & see if you can't notice some difference.

I know in my daily driver 1998 s10, I always called ******** but just happened to be playing with my new cable crimpers & decided to throw in a new charging cable & 2 grounds (1 to the rear alternator mount & 1 to the factory ground point on the firewall) didn't clean/prep either ground. The voltage meter on my kenwood x4r now reads 14.4v steady where before it would read 14.2v at idle. 

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

It's more about the grounds. Have you ever looked at the size of most factory grounds?


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## eldondo (Jul 1, 2014)

youre right on target claydo ive been thinking the same thing! in most cases its just a waste of money if ur sticking with a stock alt. and ive been meaning to tell u,u got the coolest profile pic!!!


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Most issues I've seen are due to poor grounding or cables that require maintenance. I've seen plenty still upset that "big 3" didn't help and many more that claim their bass sounds better. :worried: But I think this became big with those who had a Honda civic. At least that's where I first heard about it...


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Basic idea behind it is the stock wiring wasn't designed around the idea that you would be pulling nearly full available power from the alternator and battery on a regular basis.

Cars come with bigger alts than the car needs, so there will be little voltage drop when using accessories and everything else than can come with the car.

When you start adding amplifiers to the mix, you often push the limits of what the entire system can support.

The stock wiring on many cars is built around the fact that while you may have a 150 amp alt from the factory, the stock electrical would only be drawing maybe half that most of the time.

Increasing the size of the wire from the alt to the battery and grounds allows for less voltage drop, which may help with dimming and some of the minor issues that tend to happen when you begin to stress your factory electrical.

I've seen it stop minor dimming issues, so it's not completely useless.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Not quite an audio improvement while parked with the engine off, it's more about a better driving experience with loud music if having big class AB amps or over 2000W of power, and 
I've heard some say that if you don't get a bigger AGM battery the big 3 is not signicantly beneficial.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

I will say what I said over in the other thread Claydo. 

It's highly dependent on vehicle, and situational. Also it should be called big 4 as replacing the battery with the biggest possible is a good idea. I will add that the age of the vehicle, condition of the stock wiring, any future planning, etc... all are considered in this.

The whole premise behind the Big 3 upgrade is to provide the best possible conditions for power transfer. That's it. The side effects of doing the big 3 vary between vehicles, installs, etc... Some people won't necessarily see a noticeable change, while others see quite the change. It depends on so many factors

You can argue that you've driven a lot of vehicles and never had a need to change and that you run the power hungry A/B amps you have with no issue (good for you), in which everyone here knows in most situations the real world numbers for max current draw are not even reached. Not even close. This is across all amps. 


Ask any bass head if the Big 3 is BS. I do believe this is where the commonality of the Big 3 became so widely accepted. 



I had to do the Big 3 and this is why I did. I knew that I would be upgrading my stock alt to a HO alt. Yes I really don't need it but this would be a whole new thread about guys arguing the quality of a cheapo alt from autozone is of the same capilar my HO alt built by Singer is. Which btw isn't even close. Also hence why now my brother went from swapping 4 brand new alts in a row to now running a rebuilt Singer alt and why I had Singer rebuild my stock alt.

Yes so this means I would go from a 120A stock alt to a 275A alt. Meaning the power wire run from alt 12V+ post to fuse box to battery has to be upgraded to accommodate this change. My stock Engine block to chassis ground was loose at the time of my install. Also the ends were corroded (open end terminals are never a good idea) which makes sense. It's located in the engine bay and at that time around 120K miles where on the car.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

The arguement here seems to he about electrical draw.....lol, how does an alternator work into the draw thing? You guys do know that the alternators sole purpose in life is providing an over voltage situation for charging your battery.....right? Tha battery is the source of current. Don't believe me? Give me a minute here, those with powerful systems, I suppose you have good batteries, as in a battery with at least 650+ cca.......so that battery in a cold state, can supply 650+ amps for your electrical desires.....now think what it provides while warm at operating temperature. Your alternator makes what.....most provide less than 150.......now, still think the alternator is the power source for your car? If you do then try out a battery with less than 150 amps available, see how that works out for ya......another point going to be made is the car will run on the alternator itself.....yes, the car will operate on the alternators charging voltage....... but it is not designed to provide the current needed to operate the car on a daily basis.......if you run it this way, it will die.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

This is about stock alternators.

Big 3 is easily accepted because it's easy marketing. "MOAR POWER NEEDZ THICKER WIRE!!!"

whatever.

Whenever people approach me with headlights dimming...we fix their ground and it's good to go. This is all math and nothing to do with broscience. But you're very right in that it is vehicle dependent. Some do better than others...fix their grounds *shrug*


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Beckerson1 said:


> Yes so this means I would go from a 120A stock alt to a 275A alt. Meaning the power wire run from alt 12V+ post to fuse box to battery has to be upgraded to accommodate this change. My stock Engine block to chassis ground was loose at the time of my install. Also the ends were corroded (open end terminals are never a good idea) which makes sense. It's located in the engine bay and at that time around 120K miles where on the car.


Now this is why I corrected mr stokes about not mentioning upgraded alternators. I specifically haven't mentioned them because that is the only situation where it is needed. If you up the amperage output, of course you should rethink the sizes of power and ground coming from the charging system. I would never argue that. I'm talking about people doing this to a stock charging system like it's a magical mod that makes their alternator produce more than it was designed for.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Alrojoca said:


> Not quite an audio improvement while parked with the engine off, it's more about a better driving experience with loud music if having big class AB amps or over 2000W of power, and
> I've heard some say that if you don't get a bigger AGM battery the big 3 is not signicantly beneficial.


I'm saying the battery upgrade is all that necessary......unless, like beckerson you upgrade the charging system as well.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

claydo said:


> Now this is why I corrected mr stokes about not mentioning upgraded alternators. I specifically haven't mentioned them because that is the only situation where it is needed. If you up the amperage output, of course you should rethink the sizes of power and ground coming from the charging system. I would never argue that. *I'm talking about people doing this to a stock charging system like it's a magical mod that makes their alternator produce more than it was designed for.*




Yup!!!

Thicker wire doesn't make more power or get rid of dimming lights. CORRECTING any deficiencies will help though. But instead of realizing that their wire required some type of maintenance they think that "big 3" is synonymous with riding unicorns on rainbows...oh gawd...I think I need new pants ;P


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

I see both points, but I will say it's helped at least a little bit every single time I've done it

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> I see both points, but I will say it's helped at least a little bit every single time I've done it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


I think Honda was caught using insufficient wire at some point...or barely sufficient?

Big 3...taste the rainbow.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

LaydSierra said:


> Not to derail a potential pissing match from one topic to another but do you feel there is no difference between OFC & CCA cable either??
> 
> 
> I know in my daily driver 1998 s10, I always called ******** but just happened to be playing with my new cable crimpers & decided to throw in a new charging cable & 2 grounds (1 to the rear alternator mount & 1 to the factory ground point on the firewall) didn't clean/prep either ground. The voltage meter on my kenwood x4r now reads 14.4v steady where before it would read 14.2v at idle.
> ...


Ok......I don't mind a minor derail......just to give my opinion. The physics behind ofc vs CCA are beyond my knowledge, so marketing hype is all I can spout about that matter, lol. I know that copper is a more efficient path as far as size vs ability, but that's it. Differences? I don't know, I did change my current system once to rid the system of all CCA speaker wiring....so I reckon I bought into it......lmao. 

On the second point, you change all the terminals, giving all new contact surfaces (basically cleaning, even though you said you didnt) and gained 2 tenths of a volt on a 16 year old electrical installation..........hmmmm, sure......seems worth 100 bucks of wiring and terminals.......and look, I know people like the looks of the work and all, and if we'd admit that's why we are doing it, then fine.....I just hate seeing it recomended, discussed, and taken as gospel all the time, when the benefits are imaginary at best.......


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Ofc vs cca is simple. Aluminum conducts about 65% of what copper does. It's also not as durable.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

This reminds me of older cereal commercials that would claim that it is part of a complete breakfast, and show a bowl of Frosted Flakes next to a plate of eggs, toast, and a glass of milk.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> Ofc vs cca is simple. Aluminum conducts about 65% of what copper does. It's also not as durable.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Those reasons may be simple, hell I know that, but the physics at the heart of the marketing about the function.......well not so much. This is why I chose not to try and make a stand on this matter, I don't know the material.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

It works. It's that simple. It's as basic as opening up the flow. Efficency. 
If you think it's hype than don't waste your time.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Mr fusion....I'm looking for intelligent debate, not blind faith.....you have nothing else to offer?


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

OFC vs CCA








Not all CCA is actually CCA...


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

claydo said:


> Mr fusion....I'm looking for intelligent debate, not blind faith.....you have nothing else to offer?


Positive result after positive result. 
It's a pretty basic concept behind it. We all know bigger is always more efficient if you are not required to use all it has


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Ok....uh....now that's some intelligent debate right there.

Don't call us, we'll call you........NEXT!


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

I think I just lost ALL respect for focal...

Focal FPS High Cap Single plug-in capacitor module for FPS Series amps at Crutchfield.com


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

There is nothing to debate.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Unless you upgrade the alternator, there is no reason to replace the alternator to battery cable. That cable is already sized appropriately for the amount of current the alternator can produce, adding thicker cabling isn't going to make a bit of difference, unless the OEM cable is defective. Now, the question becomes whether or not changing the grounds makes a difference. I would say that in most cases it doesn't make a difference, but people perceive a difference because they've just put in a bit of work and a bit of money into something that they were already expecting an improvement from. 

If you run the ground cable straight to the battery, then the big 3 is meaningless. If you run your ground to the chassis, it might be worthwhile to improve the path from the chassis to the battery, but even then, we aren't talking about significant differences. 

I think the big 3 upgrade has been blown way out of proportion. Upgrading grounds might make a slight difference, it's cheap to do, pretty easy, and if that gives you peace of mind, go for it. But without a higher output alternator there is no reason to mess with the alternator to battery wire, it's appropriate for the current the alternator can produce, and it's fused appropriately as well, leave it alone.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

And gijoe drops the mike and walks away.....lmao. Take that cobra.....


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

So my stock 150 amp alternator was good with cheap 10awg?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I guess if you have never had a setup big enough to draw that much you wouldn't get it. 
Or if you have power but you are the elevator music type you won't get it


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> I guess if you have never had a setup big enough to draw that much you wouldn't get it.
> Or if you have power but you are the elevator music type you won't get it


whats wrong with elevator music


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Ok....ya got me dd, my setup is weak, and I'm well known to go easy on the volume......

(Anyone who knows me will blow snot at that statement)


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I800C0LLECT said:


> I think I just lost ALL respect for focal...
> 
> Focal FPS High Cap Single plug-in capacitor module for FPS Series amps at Crutchfield.com



Why?


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

And you play ghetto bass torture music and not elevator music you may need it


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

DDFusion, all 1,400 of your posts have been purely anecdotal or opinionated. You've done nothing to support any of your claims with any objective data. Granted, not every single post requires data, but you come across as if you know the truth about every single topic on this forum. You are a danger to new members, they see your relatively high post count and follow your advice, they haven't been around long enough to realize most if it is nonsense. 

I'm sure you have some valuable information to share here, and that you've gained plenty of useful knowledge over the years. But the very soul of this forum is founded on seperating fact from opinion. It's DIY mobile audio because people actually want to wash out the snake oil that the industry has been laying on us for decades. You must be well aware of how much snake oil and marketing is involved in the hi-fi industry. Most of us here are interested in teaching the facts (or, at a minimum, supporting our opinion in some reputable way). You seem to resist every single idea that doesn't match your preconceived ideas. You don't seem willing to learn at all, because you already know everything. 

This is a community for learning, we all need to participate constructively, and exercise some humility. Nobody here knows all the answers, the difference is between those who are willing to learn, and those who believe they already have it figured out.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> I guess if you have never had a setup big enough to draw that much you wouldn't get it.
> Or if you have power but you are the elevator music type you won't get it


You're in the wrong elevator...


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Lmao.....


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> Why?


That should have been built into the power supply. Or is it really needed?


Edit: It is refreshing they didn't go off the deep end at least, shoving a 1 farad into a giant dildo and ask $150


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204374080-The-Big-3-Wiring-Upgrade

https://www.ceautoelectricsupply.com/pdf files/The Truth about the Big 3 Upgrade.pdf


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

^ get off me.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

gijoe said:


> DDFusion, all 1,400 of your posts have been purely anecdotal or opinionated. You've done nothing to support any of your claims with any objective data. Granted, not every single post requires data, but you come across as if you know the truth about every single topic on this forum. You are a danger to new members, they see your relatively high post count and follow your advice, they haven't been around long enough to realize most if it is nonsense.
> 
> I'm sure you have some valuable information to share here, and that you've gained plenty of useful knowledge over the years. But the very soul of this forum is founded on seperating fact from opinion. It's DIY mobile audio because people actually want to wash out the snake oil that the industry has been laying on us for decades. You must be well aware of how much snake oil and marketing is involved in the hi-fi industry. Most of us here are interested in teaching the facts (or, at a minimum, supporting our opinion in some reputable way). You seem to resist every single idea that doesn't match your preconceived ideas. You don't seem willing to learn at all, because you already know everything.
> 
> This is a community for learning, we all need to participate constructively, and exercise some humility. Nobody here knows all the answers, the difference is between those who are willing to learn, and those who believe they already have it figured out.


The difference is everything I say I've already figured out. That's the great thing about being very diverse. There is way more snake oil around here than upgrading your charging cables.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204374080-The-Big-3-Wiring-Upgrade
> 
> https://www.ceautoelectricsupply.com/pdf files/The Truth about the Big 3 Upgrade.pdf


I like the second link...

I think this squarely goes back to whether the manufacturer designed the cable runs for what the vehicle requires vs. what the alternator is capable of providing.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

People might want to listen to the dumb ex Basshead sometimes.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

hrmmm. 


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/53480-question-about-big-3-a.html




Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Don't bother. It's a waste of money and time.





> I'm sure there are circumstances that call for it--like my old 68 MGBGT which had something like a 14AWG Wire from the battery ground to the chassis, but for most new cars, there's no need to do this.
> 
> Remember that the gauge of Wire required to carry current is dependent on the length of the run. The wire that goes from the battery ground to the chassis is probably a foot long and the same goes for the wire from the block to the chassis. If, after playing your system for awhile, either of those two wires or the charge wire from the alternator to the battery are so hot that it's uncomfortable to hold them, consider changing only the ones that get hot.
> 
> Really, though...there's no need.





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, it's a waste of time and money. 14.23 to 14.39 isn't enough increase to matter. Additionally, the only time this would have ANY effect, no matter how miniscule, on your audio system would be in the ability of your amplifier to make *maximum* power, and only if your amplifiers have unregulated power supplies (most have this). It won't have any effect at any lower power level. The difference between 14.23 and 14.39 is .09dB. So, if you have an amplifier that will make 100 watts maximum at 14.23, it'll make about 101 watts, maximum, at 14.39.
> 
> I wouldn't call that important.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

these threads...always going in circles...


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Mic, you post industry marketing hype as proof against my arguement against industry marketing hype? Jl even claims more horsepower and better fuel milage? Jesus christ......(and please don't take that personally, I enjoy yer company, and have the HIGHEST regard for your audio knowlege.....)

Now think on what the companies, that sell wiring and terminals, no less, are telling you. The wire in your car, handling the amperage your alternator produces, is undersized......this is denoting poor performance. Now, poor performance in electicity conduction results in one thing......heat, damage from said heat, and failure, possibly resulting in fire.......so you honestly believe that with the liability at hand in the selling of automotive transportation, the engineers wouldn't stick strictly to the science of electrical efficiency, when sizing their wire in accordance to the output of their alternators? Carmaker will save a buck in any way possible, bending over backwards to satisfy the bean counters, however safety, and therfore liabilty, is not one of these areas.....and transmission of electrical current in a car is bound to simple mathematical theories, and electrical shortcomings are not a lack of performance issue, it's a fire risk plain and simple.......

Oh....and I'll add this....the electrical drain on your battery (stereo in our case) has no affect on the amount of current produced by our alternators.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Clay you seem to not get is car maker design the charging system around the car. Not aftermarket add ons. 

Do I need to prove that also? 
Proving anything is pointless here anyway. People just ignore it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

claydo said:


> And gijoe drops the mike and walks away.....lmao. Take that cobra.....


But he didn't offer intelligent debate either. He just supported your side.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

claydo said:


> The arguement here seems to he about electrical draw.....lol, how does an alternator work into the draw thing? You guys do know that the alternators sole purpose in life is providing an over voltage situation for charging your battery.....right? Tha battery is the source of current. Don't believe me? Give me a minute here, those with powerful systems, I suppose you have good batteries, as in a battery with at least 650+ cca.......so that battery in a cold state, can supply 650+ amps for your electrical desires.....now think what it provides while warm at operating temperature. Your alternator makes what.....most provide less than 150.......now, still think the alternator is the power source for your car? If you do then try out a battery with less than 150 amps available, see how that works out for ya......another point going to be made is the car will run on the alternator itself.....yes, the car will operate on the alternators charging voltage....... but it is not designed to provide the current needed to operate the car on a daily basis.......if you run it this way, it will die.



Yes its designed to provide enough power to "safely" stop the vehicle should the alt or battery fail. 

you absolutely need a alt and a battery. I agree with you there. You can't have one or the other for a long period of time. 

Yes I do believe the alt is the power provider for the vehicle. All you need to do is do test the current draw at various stages. Turn your air condition on and test the power wire right off the alt. What does it read? (BTW test current draw) Why test here because it will provide the proof that the alt is providing the current the car needs.

The purpose of the battery is to provide current to turn the starter and once the engine turns over the battery at this point becomes the secondary power provider. That's why I call the battery a buffer. Its purpose is to provide the power needed for the few milliseconds the alt needs to adjust output. The alt will at this point output enough current to supplement the vehicles requirements and keep the battery charged. The downside to a alt is that it takes time for it to sense voltage and then adjust to bring that voltage up to a predetermined point (doing so it increases current). This is why you still need a battery. The alt can't adjust fast enough for the usual demand of the vehicle. 


You can't have one without the other. We can agree on that?


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> Clay you seem to not get is car maker design the charging system around the car. Not aftermarket add ons.
> 
> Do I need to prove that also?
> Proving anything is pointless here anyway. People just ignore it.


The other issue is that you have to remember the manufacturer is liable for under-sized wire. These vehicles are designed to operate in extremes. It's much easier to spend a few pennies for a larger gauge wire than risk it being undersized for 200F temps.

I've found that the wire leading to the battery is larger than required considering max load on alternators. After that...is the amplifier grounded properly?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> The difference is everything I say I've already figured out. That's the great thing about being very diverse. There is way more snake oil around here than upgrading your charging cables.


Lol.

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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I800C0LLECT said:


> You're in the wrong elevator...


 that was awesome!


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Larger cable also holds a small store of power. That's why SPL cars can gain by adding runs of cable even though that are not drawing enough to need that many runs.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Clay, every time someone offers something that goes against your opinion your calling hogwash and asking for data to support it, yet backing all opinions supporting yours. It seems as if your mind is made up and there's no convincing you no matter what. I will say out of every time I have done the big 3, there was some sort of improvement, big or small. Whether it be from upgrading the ground, or charging cable, or whatever.. it's worked to some extent every time. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> So my stock 150 amp alternator was good with cheap 10awg?


 1' run, you bet it was. How was it cheap? did you priced that part or purely speculating (as usual)?


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> Clay, every time someone offers something that goes against your opinion your calling hogwash and asking for data to support it, yet backing all opinions supporting yours. It seems as if your mind is made up and there's no convincing you no matter what. I will say out of every time I have done the big 3, there was some sort of improvement, big or small. Whether it be from upgrading the ground, or charging cable, or whatever.. it's worked to some extent every time.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk




Fresh cables are always better.


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

claydo said:


> Now this is why I corrected mr stokes about not mentioning upgraded alternators. I specifically haven't mentioned them because that is the only situation where it is needed. If you up the amperage output, of course you should rethink the sizes of power and ground coming from the charging system. I would never argue that. I'm talking about people doing this to a stock charging system like it's a magical mod that makes their alternator produce more than it was designed for.


I can see where you're coming from as far as the 12V+ power run as it won't increase the power output of the alt itself. Yet there is more to the big 3 then just this wire run as well. This is where it may depend on the vehicle and situation you personally have.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Larger cable also holds a small store of power. That's why SPL cars can gain by adding runs of cable even though that are not drawing enough to need that many runs.


Say what??


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> 1' run, you bet it was. How was it cheap? did you priced that part or purely speculating (as usual)?


How about it was shedding as soon as you touch it. 
And it wasn't the way I use it.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> Say what??


Yep

It's 1/10s but that adds up and matters.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Yep
> 
> It's 1/10s but that adds up and matters.


1/10 of what?


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

claydo said:


> Those reasons may be simple, hell I know that, but the physics at the heart of the marketing about the function.......well not so much. This is why I chose not to try and make a stand on this matter, I don't know the material.


I won't lie I use CCA power wire. I have yet to have a issue but that's all I can say about it. To many factors to take into account.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> 1/10 of what?


Decibels. That proves it works


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Decibels. That proves it works


 No it doesn`t. so you saying that 2/00 positive cable makes your system 10% louder in comparison with 00 cable?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Beckerson1 said:


> I won't lie I use CCA power wire. I have yet to have a issue but that's all I can say about it. To many factors to take into account.


 There is only one factor-it`s cheap **** that heat up much easier.wasting perfectly good power.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> No it doesn`t. so you saying that 2/00 positive cable makes your system 10% louder in comparison with 00 cable?


No. 
I said it's been proven the more cable runs you add the higher you can get on the meter. To a certain point of course. 
That shows the cable itself stores power to be pulled on demand with little resistance.

If you didn't know 1/10 is not 10%


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> Decibels. That proves it works


SPL comps/peen stretching is vastly different than listening to the radio on the way to work.

If .1 decibels is important outside of SPL then by all means...upgrade. Otherwise, I'm going to go clip my nails


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> No.
> I said it's been proven the more cable runs you add the higher you can get on the meter. To a certain point of course.
> That shows the cable itself stores power to be pulled on demand with little resistance.
> 
> If you didn't know 1/10 is not 10%


is US public schools that bad?


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I'm not saying it's important to you. But it proves it does have a purpose.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> is US public schools that bad?


I don't know. Where yours?


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> No.
> I said it's been proven the more cable runs you add the higher you can get on the meter. To a certain point of course.
> That shows the cable itself stores power to be pulled on demand with little resistance.
> 
> *If you didn't know 1/10 is not 10%*



hrmmm.

Let me google that for you


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Clay you seem to not get is car maker design the charging system around the car. Not aftermarket add ons.


Nice, dood, this, while short and to the point, is a rebuttal! Ok, my arguement here is contained in your rebuttal....the charging system, and that's exactly how the alternator functions, is spec'd specifically to match the current supplied by the alternator. The current draw on the electrical system has no affect on the current produced by the alternator. The alternators sole purpose is to provide an over voltage situation, which is stored by the battery. You can draw as much current from your battery as your heart desires.....it's not gonna change the current produced by the alternator......neither are you upping the draw from the alternator with your high powered stereo, this strain relies solely on the battery.



SkizeR said:


> But he didn't offer intelligent debate either. He just supported your side.


His statement was firmly rooted in truth, and yes,gave my opinion support......but it was stated eloquently and based in fact....so how could it not be considered intelligent debate?


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

10% of a decibel. How's that?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> I don't know. Where yours?


Well I do. 1/10 is exactly that 10%, I`m sorry you failed arithmetics in elementary school.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

claydo said:


> Nice, dood, this, while short and to the point, is a rebuttal! Ok, my arguement here is contained in your rebuttal....the charging system, and that's exactly how the alternator functions, is spec'd specifically to match the current supplied by the alternator. The current draw on the electrical system has no affect on the current produced by the alternator. The alternators sole purpose is to provide an over voltage situation, which is stored by the battery. You can draw as much current from your battery as your heart desires.....it's not gonna change the current produced by the alternator......neither are you upping the draw from the alternator with your high powered stereo, this strain relies solely on the battery.
> 
> 
> 
> His statement was firmly rooted in truth, and yes,gave my opinion support......but it was stated eloquently and based in fact....so how could it not be considered intelligent debate?


Power rolls down hill. It's coming from the highest point which is the alternator. The battery only has a little power over 12.6 and that's from what the alternator is providing at that given time


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> 10% of a decibel. How's that?


 0.1Db. who cares? DB meter? slightly less resistance on multiple runs that can be substituted by bigger cable in the first place.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> Well I do. 1/10 is exactly that 10%, I`m sorry you failed arithmetics in elementary school.


I guess I can't talk SPL terms here. Even thought entusiast should know all car audio terminology.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> 0.1Db. who cares? DB meter? slightly less resistance on multiple runs that can be substituted by bigger cable in the first place.


It matters when you are chasing wins.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> Power rolls down hill. It's coming from the highest point which is the alternator. The battery only has a little power over 12.6 and that's from what the alternator is providing at that given time


Ah...battery voltage is an interesting topic!

Where does an alternator stop and battery begin...or vice versa?


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Decibels. That proves it works


Not really. All this proves is you have reduced resistance for the wire run. Big 3 is only a portion of the equation here.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

The battery begins at the point it's voltage is higher than the alternator.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Beckerson1 said:


> Not really. All this proves is you have reduced resistance for the wire run. Big 3 is only a portion of the equation here.


It's the same thing in smaller terms


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> It matters when you are chasing wins.



Let's be real...we're all arguing in a ridiculous niche forum on the internet...we're not exactly winners around here...


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Power rolls down hill. It's coming from the highest point which is the alternator. The battery only has a little power over 12.6 and that's from what the alternator is providing at that given time


You have electricity confused with plumbing. Electrical theory is a little more complicated.....just sayin....


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> It matters when you are chasing wins.




can you post any meaningful number that prove your claim?
Say 2/00 power cable -168.2Db but two runs of 00 is 168.1?


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

claydo said:


> You have electricity confused with plumbing. Electrical theory is a little more complicated.....just sayin....


No it's not. Power starts at the source.


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Victor_inox said:


> There is only one factor-it`s cheap **** that heat up much easier.wasting perfectly good power.


Yet its not enough power for me to worry about it.

Yet every time I touch the wire its cool to the touch. I've never had a issue with using it in my setup. Simple as that. I don't hear a SQ difference between running OFC power wire and CCA power wire.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

claydo said:


> You have electricity confused with plumbing. Electrical theory is a little more complicated.....just sayin....


I believe he was talking highest in the terms of voltage.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> can you post any meaningful number that prove your claim?
> Say 2/00 power cable -168.2Db but two runs of 00 is 168.1?


It's out there. Plenty have tested and documented. I'm sure you will get confused by all the SPL lingo


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

claydo said:


> You have electricity confused with plumbing. Electrical theory is a little more complicated.....just sayin....



I don't think he's confused...


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Beckerson1 said:


> Yet its not enough power for me to worry about it.
> 
> Yet every time I touch the wire its cool to the touch. I've never had a issue with using it in my setup. Simple as that. I don't hear a SQ difference between running OFC power wire and CCA power wire.


 who said anything about sound quality difference? 
cool to the touch is scientific method of measurement..


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

claydo said:


> Nice, dood, this, while short and to the point, is a rebuttal! Ok, my arguement here is contained in your rebuttal....the charging system, and that's exactly how the alternator functions, is spec'd specifically to match the current supplied by the alternator. *The current draw on the electrical system has no affect on the current produced by the alternator*. The alternators sole purpose is to provide an over voltage situation, which is stored by the battery. *You can draw as much current from your battery as your heart desires.....it's not gonna change the current produced by the alternator......neither are you upping the draw from the alternator with your high powered stereo, this strain relies solely on the battery.*
> 
> 
> 
> His statement was firmly rooted in truth, and yes,gave my opinion support......but it was stated eloquently and based in fact....so how could it not be considered intelligent debate?





BULLL!!!


Prove to me this is the case. Do you have a Ammeter to test your hypothesis?

Then why the hell do alternators even need to be more then 10A. 10A is more then enough to supply charging capabilities to just about any battery out there right now.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> It's out there. Plenty have tested and documented. I'm sure you will get confused by all the SPL lingo


here we go again- empty claims- zero prove.
case dismissed!


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> here we go again- empty claims- zero prove.
> case dismissed!


Do some digging. You will find it. Look on SMD forums


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Do some digging. You will find it. Look on SMD forums


Sorry I can`t resist gag reflex on SMD forums,pure number of imbeciles is astonishing. I`ve read enough there to never visit again.


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Victor_inox said:


> here we go again- empty claims- zero prove.
> case dismissed!


----------



## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Victor_inox said:


> who said anything about sound quality difference?
> cool to the touch is scientific method of measurement..


I did... Does that make it any worse? Never said you did. 


Yet you said CCA will heat up. Have you've scientifically tested my setup? Are you here to test if my CCA power wire heats up to anything more then a negligible amount? Anything more then ambient temp? Are you here to see if all my CCA power wire has degraded to the point its dangerous? 

Answer is NO. Do I condone using one over the other. IDK I haven't tested them. I've stated my opinion before as far as OFC vs CCA. People could care less so I'm done with it. I run what I run and that's it. Still guarantee my car won't die because I used CCA over OFC vs something happening to your vehicle. It's not my job to figure out if one is better then another beyond a negligible amount. 

You can quote all the math you want but in my case (not saying in everyone's case) I don't have a issue with it. I still maintain at 14.5V hot 14.8V cold easy with little strain on the engine. No noticeable heat buildup in the wire. That's all I need here. I didn't set out to prove either one.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> Sorry I can`t resist gag reflex on SMD forums,pure number of imbeciles is astonishing. I`ve read enough there to never visit again.


No different than here. Or anywhere else for that matter.


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Beckerson1 said:


> I did... Does that make it any worse? Never said you did.
> 
> 
> Yet you said CCA will heat up. Have you've scientifically tested my setup? Are you here to test if my CCA power wire heats up to anything more then a negligible amount? Anything more then ambient temp?
> ...


http://youtu.be/Ms-wqCFaghs


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> http://youtu.be/Ms-wqCFaghs


Cool vid... and that helps me how?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Shows the temperature difference. Idk if it helps you or not.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> No different than here. Or anywhere else for that matter.


You must be puking all the time.... I feel for you.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Beckerson1 said:


> I did... Does that make it any worse? Never said you did.
> 
> 
> Yet you said CCA will heat up. Have you've scientifically tested my setup? Are you here to test if my CCA power wire heats up to anything more then a negligible amount? Anything more then ambient temp? Are you here to see if all my CCA power wire has degraded to the point its dangerous?
> ...



You can defend your choice of equipment as much as you want. If it makes you happy so be it.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Beckerson1 said:


> BULLL!!!
> 
> 
> Prove to me this is the case. Do you have a Ammeter to test your hypothesis?
> ...


Ok, ok....so maybe I oversimplified it....I can admit that. With today's supply on demand boards controlling the alternator output for fuel consumption purposes, the draw can vary the production. What I intended to say was the production will not surpass the rating of the alternator, and this is what the wire is rated for. The current is regulated solely to maintain the over voltage situation for battery charge.....when current draw goes up, the regulated alternator will up its production to maintain the higher voltage needed to charge the battery. However, it will never surpass the designs ability to produce current.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

It's better than living in a tiny bubble. 
You never know what you may learn about the car audio community as a whole. Who knows. You may pick up something you can apply here. 
Than everyone here will say you are full of crap


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> It's better than living in a tiny bubble.
> You never know what you may learn about the car audio community as a whole. Who knows. You may pick up something you can apply here.
> Than everyone here will say you are full of crap


 I learned a lot about car audio community in 30 years, separating wheat from the chaff is my specialty here, you can call it bubble all you want.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Victor_inox said:


> You can defend your choice of equipment as much as you want. If it makes you happy so be it.


And we can agree...


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

claydo said:


> Ok, ok....so maybe I oversimplified it....I can admit that. With today's supply on demand boards controlling the alternator output for fuel consumption purposes, the draw can vary the production. What I intended to say was the production will not surpass the rating of the alternator, and this is what the wire is rated for. The current is regulated solely to maintain the over voltage situation for battery charge.....when current draw goes up, the regulated alternator will up its production to maintain the higher voltage needed to charge the battery. However, it will never surpass the designs ability to produce current.


Agree'd


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I800C0LLECT said:


> hrmmm.
> 
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/53480-question-about-big-3-a.html


Andy Wehmeyer is incorrect. That difference in voltage from 14.23 to 14.39 is extremely significant. Because that measurement was made before a load was put onto the system. One strand of hairlike wire has enough conductivity to give a voltage reading with a digital meter, but try pulling any amount of current through the one strand and see what happens. 

The PRE- LOAD voltage increase going up from 14.23 to 14.39 is significant because it is a good indicator that UNDER LOAD the voltage drop is going to be significantly less. 

The voltage drop (under load) is what is really important, which will decrease significantly with a wiring system that has less resistance.

The determining factors when it comes to decreasing resistance include, but are not limited to the following:

1. Load size
2. Length of run
3. Wire material length
4. Wire material quality
5. Wire material size. 
6. Type of Terminations
7. Quality of terminations
8. Termination materials
9. Contact area of terminations
10. Pressure of terminations.
11. Ambient temperature

Also as a side note, different manufactures that label wire sizes with just a number ( 4 for example ) the actual cross sectional area may vary between different brands. This is a gimmick, to be wary of.

Unless there is the letters "AWG" after the number, which stands for American Wire Guage. A 4 AWG has the same cross sectional area regardless of brand.


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## jode1967 (Nov 7, 2012)

Im no genius nor electrical engineer, but I would venture to guess that if you are drawing more current than what the alternator can produce your voltage is gonna be very close to what the battery voltage is.
I will also state that the ampacity of OFC is greater than CCA. If you are trying to run the OFC rated current through CCA then you prolly will get some wires heating up. As long as they are ran at their rated ampacities you should be fine. I would expect a bit more voltage drop over the CCA wire
I am gonna step out and say that with the stock alternator the stock wiring to the battery is most likely sufficient, but would venture a small potential gain with upgrading the ground wires


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

I think with a 130 amp or larger alternator there's going to be a problem IF the electrical system attempts to draw 130 amps of current or more through an 8 or even 6 gauge conductor, only so much current will pass and the rest will be converted into heat and most likely will heat the wire to the point of molten rubber and/or fire, lot's of people are using upgraded alternators with current capabilities upwards of 250 amps and sometimes more and none of them would be able to operate correctly and transfer all their power without a conductor capable of handling that much current..

What it boils down too is: The factory wiring is sufficient IF you haven't increased the demands of the electrical system, just like using the correct size fuse for a circuit you must also use the correct size conductor and the charging system is absolutely the most important part of the electrical system, to run upgraded cables without paying attention to the point where the power is generated and making sure the return path for the ground is also correctly sized is just not logical thinking, current will always take the path of least resistance so build it a path and lead it in the proper direction, this way it doesn't try to flow through components that can't handle the current..


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## jode1967 (Nov 7, 2012)

how much current to you extract from the interior of the car with addons? I would guess that its not that much. Dont think too many are powering amps from inside the cabin stock wiring. I always wire from the battery for amps


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## LaydSierra (Aug 20, 2009)

*Re: &amp;quot;the big three&amp;quot; ok, tell me why?*

I'm not going back through here to quote but some of you sound like you believe car manufactures actually put different alternators, batteries & cables on vehicles based on factory options...Most vehicles have 2 alternator options depending on options (power windows, heated seats, etc.) but I've never seen a different battery/cables between a base model & fully loaded because of 1 major reason...Money

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Zippy (Jul 21, 2013)

Wow. This is a good and bad thread at the same time. I'm just gone by to add a log to the fire and step away. 

Some car manufacturers are now having the car run off the battery until voltage drops below a certain point and then kicks on the alternator to recharge the battery to a certain point before kicking off again. Why? To get better fuel economy.

Stepping back to avoid the mess that follows.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Wouldn't bigger wire give less resistance which in turn equals better electrical flow? However unnecessary, still better none the less?


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

From my personal experiences older cars (pre2003) = noticeable difference
Newer = negligible/if any difference. Assuming no alternator/battery change. Not scientific but definitely fact in my reality. That is often all that matters to an individual


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Let's just agree that upgrading the cables size is an insurance policy, it is a preventive step that offers piece of mind and in some cases a marginal benefit.

I remember a 97 ford, came with like a 10 g ground wire from battery to body, and it was not a small one, we are taking 4 litter engine, some manufacturers have made some mistakes for example Honda with the toy batteries in small cars and some small wiring choices have been some issues worth mentioning.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I always upgrade the ground to the battery when installing stereo equipment in any car. The same total gauge as the amps use. I think it's a good practice.


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> But he didn't offer intelligent debate either. He just supported your side.


Claydo has an agenda here, and his debate is the only one he deems intelligent.

I'm with you in the fact that I've heard audible improvement pretty much EVERY time I've auditioned a before/after of a "big 3", but after reading Claydo for a while here, I'm now convinced it was all in my head


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Victor_inox said:


> Say what??


I think he's trying to assert the electrical capacitance of material mass, but in a place where it does not apply. Adding mass capacitance will actually prevent low energy high frequency signals from passing, lost to the mass of the conductor, but we're talking much larger masses than apply here. In any case, no, the conductor will not store and release more power. I agree with you... Reading this also gave me a "say what?" Raise of the brow...


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

So, after taking the time to read every word of this thread, I will offer this regarding the "Big 3":

It's not an expensive endeavor to engage in. Bigger cables pass more current, and deliver less voltage-drop. They are more efficient.

Most if not all who have done the "Big 3" report at least some level of improvement, be it minimal or quite significant. It becomes more important as your current draw increases.

If your audio can draw more than the output of your charging system, the "Big 3" PLUS multiple batteries are a must in order to bridge the gap in current availability (and yes 10 amps will conceivably top them off and desulfate them over the course of a day or so on the battery minder in your garage, if you are using one).

Personally, I have 0 gauge running from my alternator, but it's producing 370 amps at 1800 rpm, so I feel it's warranted. I have upgraded all of my grounds with 0 gauge as well. I have 6 batteries connected to the system for a total of about 4300 amps of cranking amperage for short durations.

My system has the ability to consume around 700 amps.

There's no way in hell that I wouldn't be upgrading every possible power connection possible.

If it works for high amperage, it's certainly not bad for low amperage either.

(Dropping the mic)

Peace, bitches...


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

XSIV SPL said:


> Claydo has an agenda here, and his debate is the only one he deems intelligent.
> 
> I'm with you in the fact that I've heard audible improvement pretty much EVERY time I've auditioned a before/after of a "big 3", but after reading Claydo for a while here, I'm now convinced it was all in my head



What kind of agenda could I possibly have? I offered an intelligent arguement as to why I thought it was bs, nobody has offered one to support the necessity of it with a stock alternator. Find me one point, other than "I did it and it was an improvement" or folks misinterpreting how a charging system and batteries work. In the case of upgraded charging systems, I have said more than once, that's not what I'm talking about. Of course if you up your amperage between the battery and the alternator it is a necessary move. I'm just challenging the view that this is a must have upgrade for everyone running a system. I'm not a fan of blind acceptance.....at all.

I feel for most folks, a simple battery upgrade is all that's needed.

And besides all that, I knew it would be a topic that would bring out the debate........it's so commonplace and accepted that I know people swear by it as the gospel truth, and folks would passionately argue that they weren't mislead by the wire industry, because it is completely necessary and they had witnessed first hand the revolutionary change it made in their cars.....even if they had jack **** for proof, or even feasible theory......

I love a good debate, and I even humbly admitted when beckerson caught me in a statement a few pages ago.....admitted what I wrote was over simplified, and added to it to make it more reflective of what I was thinking.......


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

claydo said:


> What kind of agenda could I possibly have? I offered an intelligent arguement as to why I thought it was bs, nobody has offered one to support the necessity of it with a stock alternator. Find me one point, other than "I did it and it was an improvement" or folks misinterpreting how a charging system and batteries work. In the case of upgraded charging systems, I have said more than once, that's not what I'm talking about. Of course if you up your amperage between the battery and the alternator it is a necessary move. I'm just challenging the view that this is a must have upgrade for everyone running a system. I'm not a fan of blind acceptance.....at all.
> 
> I feel for most folks, a simple battery upgrade is all that's needed.


I will not assert that the "Big 3" will solve everyone's problems, but it will not move anyone backward .

And yes, you seem to have an agenda here. Just because you don't see a value in upgrading your power and ground wiring/connections does not mean that any of the rest of us would not benefit from this. You are free to do whatever you wish... But please stop with your assertion that we're all stupid if we make said upgrades. You must surely agree, these upgrades certainly will NOT degrade performance in any way, true?

I feel that you are delivering a disservice to this forum by taking the position which you have been so vocal in presenting.


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

All I have asked for is a reasonable arguement for this upgrade. If it's necessary in the situation I presented.....then why? I haven't read a single reason why anyone should do this upgrade, I feel it's a service to the forum....not a disservice, lol. I have never once insinuated or stated anyone's stupidity anywhere in this thread.....don't know where you even got that from. I also stated if yer doing it just for appearance or continuity than fine, but let's admit that's all it is.....

Oh, and agenda is something to gain right, how can an agenda be derived by recommending you don't purchase the parts, or parts and labor on something ?


----------



## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

claydo said:


> All I have asked for is a reasonable arguement for this upgrade. If it's necessary in the situation I presented.....then why? I haven't read a single reason why anyone should do this upgrade, I feel it's a service to the forum....not a disservice, lol. I have never once insinuated or stated anyone's stupidity anywhere in this thread.....don't know where you even got that from. I also stated if yer doing it just for appearance or continuity than fine, but let's admit that's all it is.....
> 
> Oh, and agenda is something to gain right, how can an agenda be derived by recommending you don't purchase the parts, or parts and labor on something ?


Claydo... I figure that maybe you don't understand the many benefits of electrical and charging system upgrades, it's fine with me whatever you're basing your opinions on...

The simple facts remain as presented numerous times in this thread... Larger conductors are more efficient... Hence, better performance... Regardless of the system


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

SPL...

I don't think any of us on the forum are the real audience.

The problem isn't claydo or yourself. The issue with the big 3 is that it's accomplished without any knowledge of how and why. I know LOTS if people that scratch their heads after the fact because their problem is worse or it just wasn't fixed.

They don't understand principles of electronics or that proper crimps are kind of a big deal. I think that's the audience he's trying to reach.

Truthfully, most of those people I've run into who had issues with "big 3" just needed a better ground on their amplifier. But now their factory wiring is a mess too because they went head first with broscience.

And to high resolution audio... A tenth of voltage preloaded or whatever isn't worth the headache if you don't have the right tools. Outside of competitions it's not going to make it, break it or even be be noticeable in daily driving routines... Especially if your amps have regulated power supplies but most don't.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I800C0LLECT said:


> SPL...
> 
> I don't think any of us on the forum are the real audience.
> 
> ...


Your statement regarding "preloaded or whatever" shows that you do not understand electricity therefore the rest of your statement becomes null and void. 

If you measure voltage with a digital meter before upgrading wires, terminations, etc and then after making such improvements, and one gets an increase of just a few tenths of a volt before a load is put on said circuit, then that is a good indicator that if one measures voltage under load, one may have the benefit of one half to one volt. One half to one volt under load can make a significant and dramatic increase in sound quality.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

If it's that dramatic then I suppose you only use regulated power supplies in your amps?

You also ignored my point. Factory wiring is always better than inept wiring. I guess that doesn't fit in with you wanting to argue.

I said one tenth BTW... Not a few.

Edit... Here's the context...



> Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer View Post
> No, it's a waste of time and money. 14.23 to 14.39 isn't enough increase to matter. Additionally, the only time this would have ANY effect, no matter how miniscule, on your audio system would be in the ability of your amplifier to make maximum power, and only if your amplifiers have unregulated Power supplies (most have this). It won't have any effect at any lower Power level. The difference between 14.23 and 14.39 is .09dB. So, if you have an amplifier that will make 100 watts maximum at 14.23, it'll make about 101 watts, maximum, at 14.39.
> 
> I wouldn't call that important.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I800C0LLECT said:


> If it's that dramatic then I suppose you only use regulated power supplies in your amps?
> 
> You also ignored my point. Factory wiring is always better than inept wiring. I guess that doesn't fit in with you wanting to argue.
> 
> I said one tenth BTW... Not a few.


True that factory wiring may be better than inept wiring. However some factory wiring is bare minimum in some vehicles, sized (as some people have stated previous to keep cost down) not to handle the load of a 1000 watt plus aftermarket sound system.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I800C0LLECT said:


> If it's that dramatic then I suppose you only use regulated power supplies in your amps?
> 
> You also ignored my point. Factory wiring is always better than inept wiring. I guess that doesn't fit in with you wanting to argue.
> 
> ...


Refer to post #119 and read it really carefully. Andy is wrong.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> True that factory wiring may be better than inept wiring. *However some factory wiring is bare minimum in some vehicles,* sized (as some people have stated previous to keep cost down) not to handle the load of a 1000 watt plus aftermarket sound system.


I've mentioned that a few times. I've also acknowledged that big 3 covers up neglect and required maintenance as well.

There's always a caveat. And we're typically smart enough around here when to know "big 3" is needed. There's quite a few that don't and move forward without application of real knowledge.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

XSIV SPL said:


> Claydo... I figure that maybe you don't understand the many benefits of electrical and charging system upgrades, it's fine with me whatever you're basing your opinions on...
> 
> The simple facts remain as presented numerous times in this thread... Larger conductors are more efficient... Hence, better performance... Regardless of the system


Then when do you stop? I mean based on big 3 science, your positive cable run from the battery to amp distribution should be at least 2 runs of 4/0. If we are worried about a few tenths of a volt pickup at most, in a 3 foot run of 4 gauge and a stock alternators output, then a 15 foot run with most likely a more significant draw from the amplifiers should warrant the larger wire as well.


Barring old terminations, old oxidized cable, the cable from your alternator positive to the battery positive is spec'd correctly. For the factory alternator.

As stated previously many times, to properly gauge your wire requirements, wire current capacity is based on draw and length of the run. shorter runs can handle more current. Ever look at the conductor size in a 150 amp fuse? 

I think the gains most claim were "measured" after all three steps were done. And the negative upgrades providing the gains

I have never seen anyone ever do just the positive upgrade. The hands Down best thing you can do is simply add to or replace the grounds. Supplement that steel conductor portion of the circuit with copper. 


And that also makes me ask, if we are so worried about 3 feet of copper, why isn't dedicated runs of copper being pushed for the negative side of the circuit?

Quit using the ****ty steel chassis as a conductor. Or for god's sake, supplement it with copper or a CCA run.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

High Resolution Audio said:


> True that factory wiring may be better than inept wiring. However some factory wiring is bare minimum in some vehicles, sized (as some people have stated previous to keep cost down) not to handle the load of a 1000 watt plus aftermarket sound system.


The size of the factory wire is designed to handle the output capability of the alternator. That is what it is sized for.

How many watts of amplification you have on the cars electrical system does not change "that". If you were connecting those amplifiers directly to the alternator 
"Then" it might matter, except you are still limited by the max output of the alternator. And the length of the wire run.

Again, we connect to the battery which has a way larger amperage capability. And that is where you make sure your wire gauge is adequate. Adequate for the current over the run while minimizing voltage drop.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Refer to post #119 and read it really carefully. Andy is wrong.


Alright...let's work through this...



monkeybutt said:


> I did the Big 3 on my Acura CL-S and there was a measurable *increase in voltage from 14.23v to 14.39v. This was at idle taken at the battery posts.*
> The bass was more pronounced as I kept thinking that I had been needing to turn my sub gain on the amp, but after this did not need to. Also, unexpectedly the transparency seemed a bit better, but I put that down to proud DIY syndrome.
> However, I later did my TL, but due to laziness and facing much longer and tortuous runs I only changed terminals to these: Parts Express3 Platinum Negative (-) Battery Terminal Block and did the Bat- to chassis ground wire. The voltage went from 14.14v to 14.25v. I was really surprised this time as fullness (midbass) and transparency took a very noticeable jump. I've always expected more from this modest but decent system with Eclipse HU, RF amp, CDT comps and IA ND12 sub. I can't tell you the number of times I've tuned and adjusted this system, but the neg bat wire made the sound better going from slightly dull to nice. As a litmus test, this car is my wife's go to work car and without knowing I did anything she came home and asked if I bought something new for the stereo.:surprised: This was a surprize as she can't tell my two home audio only tube based systems from the SS home theater.



Andy's post...




Andy Wehmeyer said:


> No, it's a waste of time and money. 14.23 to 14.39 isn't enough increase to matter. Additionally, the only time this would have ANY effect, no matter how miniscule, on your audio system would be in the ability of your amplifier to make *maximum* power, and only if your amplifiers have unregulated power supplies (most have this). It won't have any effect at any lower power level. The difference between 14.23 and 14.39 is .09dB. So, if you have an amplifier that will make 100 watts maximum at 14.23, it'll make about 101 watts, maximum, at 14.39.
> 
> I wouldn't call that important.



Then you said....




High Resolution Audio said:


> *Andy Wehmeyer is incorrect. * That difference in voltage from 14.23 to 14.39 is extremely significant. Because that measurement was made before a load was put onto the system. One strand of hairlike wire has enough conductivity to give a voltage reading with a digital meter, but try pulling any amount of current through the one strand and see what happens.
> 
> The PRE- LOAD voltage increase going up from 14.23 to 14.39 is significant because it is a good indicator that UNDER LOAD the voltage drop is going to be significantly less.
> 
> ...



Then I didn't understand electricity because I said "preloaded or whatever"...the whatever mostly to denote rambling...nothing more.




High Resolution Audio said:


> Your statement regarding "preloaded or whatever" shows that you do not understand electricity therefore the rest of your statement becomes null and void.
> 
> *If you measure voltage with a digital meter before upgrading wires,* terminations, etc and then after making such improvements, and one gets an increase of just a few tenths of a volt before a load is put on said circuit, then that is a good indicator that if one measures voltage under load, one may have the benefit of one half to one volt. One half to one volt under load can make a significant and dramatic increase in sound quality.


Andy only commented on his comment concerning measurement while playing music.

His vehicle was idling and he noticed about a tenth of a voltage gain. Was he playing music? I assume he was because he goes into talking about how much better it sounded with ~.16 increase in voltage.

So HRA...what am I confused about?

If Andy is incorrect I believe you failed to point out where...barring your statements about a load not being present. Does the vehicle idling with music playing constitute a load? Maybe he wasn't playing music but it was idling?


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> I fail to see where Andy is wrong. He is correct about most amps unregulated power supplies. he is correct about miniscule difference in power few tens of a volt Under load make.
> Steel is cross section of a car chassis is terrific conductor BTW.


Wasn't arguing with Andy. I also feel adding a big ass wire to the alt/battery positive is a waste of time and money on a factory alternator.

Steel is a terrific conductor? And you are putting down CCA?


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

cubdenno said:


> Wasn't arguing with Andy. *I also feel adding a big ass wire to the alt/battery positive is a waste of time and money on a factory alternator.*
> 
> Steel is a terrific conductor? And you are putting down CCA?



me three.

But like I said way way way back...I almost remember Honda using the wrong size wire a LONG LONG time ago...90's? But undersized wiring from factory isn't common these days.

BETTER GROUNDS is where it's at


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

correct me if i'm wrong but isn't equipment like car audio amplifiers spec'd out using a 14.4v source ?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

cubdenno said:


> Wasn't arguing with Andy. I also feel adding a big ass wire to the alt/battery positive is a waste of time and money on a factory alternator.
> 
> Steel is a terrific conductor? And you are putting down CCA?


 I was not even posting in response to you but HRA instead, obviously quoted wrong post! 
I usually ignore people pulling words out of context, Yes in cross section of a car steel is great conductor.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Alright...let's work through this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is my assumption that the measurements were taken with no music playing, because it would be impossible to get a reading that specific while playing music because the voltage would fluctuate.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

High Resolution Audio said:


> It is my assumption that the measurements were taken with no music playing, because it would be impossible to get a reading that specific while playing music because the voltage would fluctuate.



Well Andy only responded based on the information provided. My voltage is pretty steady in my vehicle while playing music. Andy isn't wrong based on assumption.

I agree there's a chance for voltage drop to be much more significant but there's too many variables that would play into arguing that position and it's not the audience Claydo is trying to reach.

Just a quick search of "big 3 lights still dim"....




https://www.reddit.com/r/CarAV/comments/2mq4p7/big_3_upgrade_complete_failure/

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/61734-just-did-big-three-new-battery-lights-still-dim.html

My lights still dim even with a second battery. - Electrical-battery- Alternators- Wiring - SMD Forum

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110305102029AAusU1A

BIG 3 DONE, Lights still dim, and amp cuts off at 13volts?


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

gstokes said:


> correct me if i'm wrong but isn't equipment like car audio amplifiers spec'd out using a 14.4v source ?


Yes so that with an unregulated power supply they can claim max watts yo!

Ahhh remember the good old days when amps were specced at 12 volts. Hell my Toyota only provides around 14.1 my older Toyota was 13.8 and my last three company cars, Chevy equinox 's never went above 14.0 

So I have never been able to get my max watts!!!:mean:


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Alright...I need to share this...

Let me google that for you

Crazy to see some of the threads and videos that come up


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Well Andy only responded based on the information provided. My voltage is pretty steady in my vehicle while playing music. Andy isn't wrong based on assumption.
> 
> I agree there's a chance for voltage drop to be much more significant but there's too many variables that would play into arguing that position and it's not the audience Claydo is trying to reach.
> 
> ...


I actually kind of agree with Claydo to a certain extent. I myself have not done the big three, but I have run massive (00) wires to my + amp distribution block to battery and from my - distribution block to Chassis. 

I could probably benefit from doing the big three, but In my installation, I do not feel its necessary. Your case for installation specific upgrades, is on point.


.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Victor_inox said:


> I was not even posting in response to you but HRA instead, obviously quoted wrong post!
> I usually ignore people pulling words out of context, Yes in cross section of a car steel is great conductor.


In every install I have done, I have seen the best "fix" of voltage drop to be adding in a dedicated negative run. These welded and glued unibody cars with the various sound reduction, rust preventative etc additions all seem to benefit from the addition.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Alright...I need to share this...
> 
> Let me google that for you
> 
> Crazy to see some of the threads and videos that come up


Lights dimming could be due to undersized wires to headlights, or bad ground on headlights. Cooked or overheated wires to headlights, loose connections on headlights etc. 

Some cars, such as SAABs have relays that turn on the high and low beams. The relay can have poor connections, the socket the relay plugs into, etc. etc, etc. 

Some people assume by doing the big three it will solve their specific electrical issues. In these instances, it would probably be a waste of $, I will have to agree.

And in my limited experience doing vehicle wiring and from talking to mechanics, I have found that most electrical problems are due to bad grounds.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

If you look close some of them even complain of amps turning off


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

I800C0LLECT said:


> If you look close some of them even complain of amps turning off


More than likely, it would be caused by a bad ground to the Amp.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Ah.....this is more like it, lots better than the "bro, just stfu....and do the big three, everybody knows it fookin works" type of arguement last night!


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

High Resolution Audio said:


> Lights dimming could be due to undersized wires to headlights, or bad ground on headlights. Cooked or overheated wires to headlights, loose connections on headlights etc.
> 
> Some cars, such as SAABs have relays that turn on the high and low beams. The relay can have poor connections, the socket the relay plugs into, etc. etc, etc.
> 
> ...


Voltage regulators are relatively slow reacting to voltage changes. In my estimation one of the main causes of dimming. A 1 volt fluctuation 14 to 13 and back to 14 is not a faulty electric system. 

Ha! Remembered when discussing caps and dimming it was recommended to put the cap at the lights where it would actually work.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

cubdenno said:


> Voltage regulators are relatively slow reacting to voltage changes. In my estimation one of the main causes of dimming. A 1 volt fluctuation 14 to 13 and back to 14 is not a faulty electric system.
> 
> Ha! Remembered when discussing caps and dimming it was recommended to put the cap at the lights where it would actually work.


Holy shiite, that last line is sig worthy.....lol.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

Zippy said:


> Wow. This is a good and bad thread at the same time. I'm just gone by to add a log to the fire and step away.
> 
> Some car manufacturers are now having the car run off the battery until voltage drops below a certain point and then kicks on the alternator to recharge the battery to a certain point before kicking off again. Why? To get better fuel economy.
> 
> Stepping back to avoid the mess that follows.


Your correct its to improve fuel economy


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Originally...caps were introduced by competitors to help with lights dimming because of voltage regulators. I believe it helped their points score


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Originally...caps were introduced by competitors to help with lights dimming because of voltage regulators. I believe it helped their points score


They where for stiffening and filtering


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> They where for stiffening and filtering


I won't argue terms...



> After studying a little history on large 1 Farad capacitors in Car audio, you'd be amazed that they even sell at all. How useful are they? What do they really do? Will a Cap 'improve' my sound quality? Will it Prevent my lights from dimming? Will it audibly affect my audio system in any way?
> 
> Before you get the truth to any of the above questions, chances are, you've probably spent $100 or more on one of these devices. However, let's study a little history regarding this issue.
> 
> ...


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/63682-post3.html


The information could be wrong but I've seen that story and in detail many times on the net

Here's the old thread...one of many.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/6619-100-farad-capacitor.html


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

You know the SPL crowd is using a lot of maxwell caps now


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Sounds like that could be expensive! I couldn't imagine needing that


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> You know the SPL crowd is using a lot of maxwell caps now


 supercapacitors,yes.


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> You know the SPL crowd is using a lot of maxwell caps now


Due to the increase in power delivery vs batteries even your high end AGM are limited in how "Fast" they can deliver the power.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Claydo. What is the end of the debate for you? It is electrical truth that the best type(material) and largest conductor will pass the electricity most efficiently. So in most cases the change would be miniscule and difficult to measure do to variables but still improvement. So what would you like to see? Some video documentation of voltage gains at the amplifier playing the exact same song, at the same point, at the same ambient temperature as heat plays a part in electrical conductivity? I really am not trying to be ignorant. This is a loaded question that will be different in every application 100% of the time. If 8 out 10 are seeing subjective improvement in a subjective hobby and no one has ever had a negative effect with a properly executed big 3 upgrade then I would say that's enough to suggest it for an install. Any potential upgrade suggestions end worth (any one ever gives with or without evidence ) in audio is still based on a person's perception of sound.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Theslaking said:


> Claydo. What is the end of the debate for you? It is electrical truth that the best type(material) and largest conductor will pass the electricity most efficiently. So in most cases the change would be miniscule and difficult to measure do to variables but still improvement. So what would you like to see? Some video documentation of voltage gains at the amplifier playing the exact same song, at the same point, at the same ambient temperature as heat plays a part in electrical conductivity? I really am not trying to be ignorant. This is a loaded question that will be different in every application 100% of the time. If 8 out 10 are seeing subjective improvement in a subjective hobby and no one has ever had a negative effect with a properly executed big 3 upgrade then I would say that's enough to suggest it for an install. Any potential upgrade suggestions end worth (any one ever gives with or without evidence ) in audio is still based on a person's perception of sound.


Subjective improvement is just that. Placebo effect. Quantitative improvement is where no one seems to even try and determine if it is occurring. How often do you see before and after measurements?

And electrical improvement isn't subjective if you have before and after measurements.

As for adding larger gauge wire lowering resistance, no one disputes that. What is being disputed or at least questioned is, there is, as usual a point where it is not going to affect anything. And especially it is not going to increase the current output of an alternator. 

And again, if we are going by these subjective 8 out of 10 results, why don't you guys then take and run 4/0 to the amp power distribution from the battery? Longer wire run, more potential for larger current demands, after the alternator hits max current capacity, the battery supplies at battery voltage so a drop at that voltage is even more detrimental.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I love when people who has no practical knowledge of amplifiers circuit starting arguing.

What voltage drop on the rails of the amp will be if your voltage drops 0.2V at the amplifier positive cable input?
I can tell you. say 70V rails which is somewhat typical for car amp.
it will be 69.99. power difference as result of such drop will be so miniscule it`s not worth mentioning and mostly unmeasurable. 
I see people always overbuild their power runs in hope to what exactly? cable is cheap so why not?


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I am suggesting the question is not difinitively answerable with reasonable effort. Therefore it is a loaded question. The answer to to OP's question is better answered with a question. "Tell me why not." Since you could say that improving efficiency by increasing wire size is a verifiable reason then that answer's the question. It may not be the one he is looking for but that's why I asked. The why not seems to only have one answer. The possibility of little or no gain. There is no answer that has provided a downside. There has been answers that provide downsides to not doing it. This is my simpleton logic to actually give answer as opposed to an argument. Every human science fact is based on the masses believeing the same thing about the same thing. Since most believe it is useful through their personal experiences does that not make it fact according to current standards. Even science is only accepted as truth until enough test are done thta they get different results.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Why big-3? Cuz its pretty. Hehe. 

But seriously while I'm a fan of something better than 10 gauge stock for chassis/block/battery grounds, and alternator run, I'm done with the idea of dang 1/0 runs.. I only left 1/0 in the car where I didn't feel like pulling it when I backed everything down to 4 awg. Whole system runs fine on an 80 amp fuse as well. Did I need it at all? I imagine not. Was a good learning project though. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Theslaking said:


> Claydo. What is the end of the debate for you?





Theslaking said:


> The answer to to OP's question is better answered with a question. "Tell me why not."


You have misunderstood my reasoning for posting this thread to begin with. As I started with, I have owned, and installed many systems, never once used the "big three" process and have never had any sort of electrical problem at all, except weak stock batteries leading to premature alternator death. I simply wanted to get folks thinking about one of the things that's become a mainstay in our hobby, to challenge those who blindly follow a trend without any honest thought into the process. I'm not trying to talk down to anyone on the matter, I just wanted to see if I could get the group thinking about it, and bring forth any solid reasoning behind the upgrade that's recommended so widely, and apparently accepted without question.......I knew there was nothing solid there to argue about, so it was kinda unfair, I'll admit, but I hoped by presenting both sides in open view, without any industry jargon and hype, maybe I could lead those unsure in the matter to the realization that's it's not mandatory, and really not necessary unless you upgrade the charging side of the system. Knowlege is often gained through reading, but understanding really comes home in a healthy debate. I think this site should be more open to challenges of commonly accepted things.......post it, open it for debate, there's a mass of intelligent folks here, you never know what you'll learn.......and biggest thing of all on this site, is admit you are wrong when someone trumps your opinion with fact.....this part is hard because while I feel there has been no logical arguement in support of this upgrade, and much to debunk it, some folks are still going to insist my opinion is wrong, why, because "I said so".......


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

If I used my setup the way most on here do I wouldn't need to do it either. 
Funny thing is the stock ground was not even sanded so if I didn't do it I would have had issues


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Babs said:


> Why big-3? Cuz its pretty. Hehe.
> 
> But seriously while I'm a fan of something better than 10 gauge stock for chassis/block/battery grounds, and alternator run, I'm done with the idea of dang 1/0 runs.. I only left 1/0 in the car where I didn't feel like pulling it when I backed everything down to 4 awg. Whole system runs fine on an 80 amp fuse as well. Did I need it at all? I imagine not. Was a good learning project though.


I'm all good with this side of it too......if you do it for looks, or continuity through your instal....well, awesome. I just want to lead people away from the thought that they have to do it because....well, just because....


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## Jepalan (Jun 27, 2013)

I tend to agree with Claydo on this one (mostly).
Assuming as Claydo said, we are only talking stock alternators...
For high power systems pushing the limits of stock power system...
Then...
There is *some* logic for upgrading the battery's ground-to-chassis connection (Big 1?)
Beyond that, nothing else makes sense in the rest of the Big 3 upgrade (to me).


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

*&quot;the big three&quot; ok, tell me why?*

My leads were all pretty thin so I did bat neg to frame, frame to block and another frame to battery just because it was there in 4 awg. I left all but one original runs along with it. Then an added 4 awg fused to battery +. Overkill? Very very probably. I did something very unorthodox you'll see in the pic with a dual fused distro. One output is to the sound system, the other to the alternator. Simply because I had the dual distro. 

Wouldn't it be interesting to see the current flow during operation. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

For years this mod was known as a ground amplifier and is/was still popular in racing circles, there's a bit more science to it then people realize..

I think we can agree on,,, it's not guaranteed to to be a fix-all for electrical gremlins and the ground return path is equally important as the source..

If you have a voltage drop or current supply issues then the problem should be carefully diagnosed and addressed, doing the Big 3 is not guaranteed to solve the issue, but it could..

If the factory charging circuit is insufficient size/gauge for the load than the Big 3 will be an improvement FOR THE CHARGING CIRCUIT..

If you got dim headlights check and improve the headlight grounds, using relays can yield brighter headlights..

If your headlight dims when the Bass hits you have a voltage drop, improve grounds and/or use relays..

And don't add a cap to the amp if the headlights are dimming, duh..

Capacitors should be mounted within 8" of their desired connection to work as they were intended..

Don't use chassis grounds unless you have too, an insulated solid copper connection leading to and from the amplifier/s and battery is always best..

If you upgrade the alternator then do the Big 3 since the factory wiring is most likely not designed for the increased current, make sense ?

I like the 4th part of the Big 3 and can see the value in that, knowing that that the ground return path for the entire vehicle is created at the very back portion of the alternator case where the Bridge Rectifier (Trio Diodes) are located, lot of people think the ground is created at the battery negative but that is very incorrect and that's why the The Big 3 or 4 as i like to call it can be very beneficial, i am firm believer in it but i don't believe every vehicle will benefit from it..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3EFGlHPFDk


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

gstokes said:


> correct me if i'm wrong but isn't equipment like car audio amplifiers spec'd out using a 14.4v source ?


Sure, lots of it is... But, the vast majority of amps on the market have internal voltage regulation, which negates the advantage of a higher voltage feeding power to that amp.

We could have, and quite honestly probably should have, another entirely different discussion here regarding internal voltage regulation in amps vs. unregulated amps using external voltage regulation through means such as the former Accu-volt products, or the current Harrison Laboratory products.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

XSIV SPL said:


> Sure, lots of it is... But, the vast majority of amps on the market have internal voltage regulation, which negates the advantage of a higher voltage feeding power to that amp.
> 
> We could have, and quite honestly probably should have, another entirely different discussion here regarding internal voltage regulation in amps vs. unregulated amps using external voltage regulation through means such as the former Accu-volt products, or the current Harrison Laboratory products.


Opposite in fact, no regulators. Very few has them as they complicate the circuit without benefit. About 95% amplifier currently on market does not have regulators, those that have only for marketing ******** reasons as "regulated power supply" sounds somewhat sophisticated for people who don`t know better. THere is no SQ benefit to keep rail voltage identical on 12.00 vs 14.4V I think JL came up first with that marketing to sell more units I might be off on who started that first.


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## probillygun (Oct 10, 2013)

gstokes said:


> You didn't and I didn't mean to imply you did, actually making an effort to be a bit more humble then i have in the past ..
> 
> Check this out,, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3EFGlHPFDk


Thanks! Upgrading the back of the casing of the Alternator's ground is something I never thought about. (For aftermarket higher output)

I agree with claydo, if it's a stock alternator then the ground already provided by the factory should be sufficeint for the stock alternators current output.(As long as its not corroded, bad termination, ect...)


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

It should also be noted one little thing I learned being QM with a company that makes resistance-coil heater elements. Resistance (ohms) is unreliably read by handheld meters under 10-11 ohms or so. So the kind of resistance I've seen some installers try to measure for ground continuity is totally unreliable at .5 to .7 ohms etc. A regular ohms meter (handheld) is typically not going to be accurate enough as something like a very expensive Instek GOM-802 for example. Those read based on voltage drop I think rather than actual resistance from meter lead to lead. Thus voltage drop is the only and better way to measure what's going on between two points in the car-circuit. I imagine you guys with much more electrical knowledge than I can speak to that in far better vocabulary. Just wanted to bring that out. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Goldcar (Dec 8, 2015)

^ I use a similar Cropico unit daily.

This was quite the read. And that video posted above is good too.

You want to pull from the source (alt) not the reservoir (battery). Voltage falls as the battery current output is increased. If you were to get current from the source (alt) the battery now acts to maintain proper voltage and regulate supply (like it is stock). As soon as V drops, the battery no longer charges. The voltage needs to be higher (14+) than the battery 12 to overcome internal resistance.
The battery is a load in the car, not a source. As battery voltage drops the alt has to work harder and harder (more current) to maintain system voltage. Which is why a good alt-bat pos wire is good. You could have 1/0 to the battery, but in reality its still coming through your stock alt cable to get to the amps. This strains parts of the system. It may still work under stress but just like any electronics the cooler it runs the better the life and performance. Why make the alt work harder for $10 worth of cable and 2 crimps? And a couple grounds to match. Which is the biggest issue of all in new cars.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

All I know is that my hybrid Jetta is pretty stout! I tried following all the cables but I became lost pretty quick. The agm and lithium batteries are both in the trunk. Big win for me.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Goldcar said:


> ^ I use a similar Cropico unit daily.
> 
> This was quite the read. And that video posted above is good too.
> 
> ...


If you pull directly from your alt, you will kill it if your draw surpass it's capabilities......this is why I'm a diehard battery upgrade recommender......lol. Your alt is there to supply an overvoltage situation for you battery to store....that's it, fight the fact that the stored energy in the battery is the source all you like, without the battery in between to buffer the demand with its massive amperage reserves, the alt will self destruct. Have you read the thread, or did you just add your 2 cents?

Actually, I may have to retract this statement, because as long as the battery is in the curcuit, the storage is there......but, if you wire this way, you will have to do the big three I so dispute, because then the wires between the alt and battery will now be carrying the full load of the systems demand, vs just the capability of the alt........sheesh....


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

You are always pulling from the alternator... 
I think you started this "debate" without understanding what's going on.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)




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## Goldcar (Dec 8, 2015)

claydo said:


> . Have you read the thread, or did you just add your 2 cents?


Yes, both  reading through it got me thinking though. I have never done a big 3, never needed it. Only every touched those ****ty stock braided ground straps.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

claydo said:


>


 Just give up.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Victor_inox said:


> Just give up.


I just did, dd pushed me over the edge........


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

claydo said:


> I just did, dd pushed me over the edge........


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

The Battery starts the engine then acts as a buffer for the alternator, that's really all you need to remember and if you just keep that in mind it becomes real easy to understand as to the question of "Why the Big 3"..


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

You don't understand how current flows. I can't help you. Go ahead and give up. You will never understand if you don't get it yet.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Where do you think the batteries float charge is coming from? Jesus himself


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## texaswig (Mar 11, 2013)

I just feel bad for people who have more money in power wire than in their amps.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

claydo said:


> dd pushed me over the edge........


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> I don't understand how current flows. You can't help me. Go ahead and give up. I will never understand if I don't get it yet.


Fixored......

Ok.....that was a bit harsh, but you said it to me first, lmao. As much as it may surprise you mr dd, I know how current flow works, and I know where you're coming from.......of course the whole circuit (your car) sees the elevated voltage of the alt while it's running. That's missing the arguement I have been making.....that's what you're failing to see......my arguement is if the stock alt is making 150 amps, the wire connecting the alt to the battery is rated to handle 150 amps........no amount of load (stereo) is going to make that alt produce more than 150 amps.....right? That is my arguement........any pull of over 150 amps.... (theoretical, of course.....unless yer running some serious bidness in yer car...) is coming from where?


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## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

I posted in this thread as the first reply and needless to say I have not been disappointed in the discussion lol.... I am still debating what to do with my new setup as far as wiring and such when the time comes. Probably go with the upgraded battery first and then see how things play out from there. 

But I have gained some good insight into this from the discussion, so keep it coming :laugh:


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

claydo said:


> Fixored......
> 
> Ok.....that was a bit harsh, but you said it to me first, lmao. As much as it may surprise you mr dd, I know how current flow works, and I know where you're coming from.......of course the whole circuit (your car) sees the elevated voltage of the alt while it's running. That's missing the arguement I have been making.....that's what you're failing to see......my arguement is if *the stock alt is making 150 amps, the wire connecting the alt to the battery is rated to handle 150 amps........no amount of load (stereo) is going to make that alt produce more than 150 amps*.....right? That is my arguement........any pull of over 150 amps.... (theoretical, of course.....unless yer running some serious bidness in yer car...) is coming from where?


This is the part I think people don't understand. Or overlook.



On my old car (Toyota Solara), it had an 80 amp factory alternator. Amps were at the end, SAZ1500D and 2 SAX100.4.

Adding an extra cable to the alt+/Battery+ did nothing to change my voltage at the amplifiers in my trunk. It was easy to test as I just slapped an extra cable on. when the results were witnessed and measured, I pulled it off. I hated to see the "old guard" on here correct. they did tell me I wasn't going to see a difference. But it was a good lesson. Upgrading the negative cables helped and running the dedicated negative from the battery to the trunk helped the most. 

Also warned by them was the actual current draw. They told me it was going to be way less than I thought. Like a lot of people, I was counting the fuses on the amps. Doing the "wattage" calculations and coming up with some very big numbers. Initially before I had the two four channels, I think I saw less than 120 amps at 12.X volts. After the two four channels it was still under 150amps draw at WAO.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

cubdenno said:


> This is the part I think people don't understand. Or overlook.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


wOOt!!!

At one point I was checking total amps pulled in my grand prix with the radio going full tilt. I don't remember it ever pulling more than 30 amps. That's what everybody is trying to convey with "music is dynamic". Caveat...those SPL guys with sine waves don't care about dynamics and they do pull large loads for what they do in their hobby. But for people playing music...nbd.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Indeed, most believe their amps have the ability to pull the fused rating, lmao. I'd tackle this waste of money too, the belief that your 4 channel and mono class d amps require the 0 gauge run, but as frustrating as this thread has been, I don't believe I have the patience......


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

I800C0LLECT said:


> wOOt!!!
> 
> At one point I was checking total amps pulled in my grand prix with the radio going full tilt. I don't remember it ever pulling more than 30 amps. That's what everybody is trying to convey with "music is dynamic". Caveat...those SPL guys with sine waves don't care about dynamics and they do pull large loads for what they do in their hobby. But for people playing music...nbd.


Exactly right. I had a 500A ammeter in my Blazer (with a shunt wired in and everything), and I generally never saw above 200-250A draws on music with a DC 5k amp at full tilt. Of course, there are certain forums where not many people believed it, I'll leave that to you to guess, but it was accurate.


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## Kjekz (Jul 16, 2014)

All this discussion about wiresize has made me confused.

Is there any kind of chart i would be able to follow?

Battery in the trunk, 180A alternator up front (lets say 12-15feet of cable from alternator to battery)
gonna ground the battery via the chassis and get one or two good 0 gauge grounds from the engine to the chassis (0gauge here since i got some stumps).

From the battery in the trunk there will be 1 feet leads to the amps.

From my understanding of what you are debating i wont need to consider the maximum draw from my amps, since the alternator cant deliver over 180A anyway.

And from the battery to the amp i should then consider the "maximum" draw of each amp?

Just trying to wrap my head around the disagreement and what you guys would say is correct here.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

Kjekz said:


> All this discussion about wiresize has made me confused.
> 
> Is there any kind of chart i would be able to follow?
> 
> ...


The main reason to run over sized larger wires is to eliminate voltage drop, as well as to handle the current (or amperage). Think of a wire as a resistor. The longer the wire the more the resistance. In order to compensate for the resistance in the wire itself, we up-size the wire's diameter. In order to get that electricity to flow over distance and keeping the voltage up.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

claydo said:


> Indeed, most believe their amps have the ability to pull the fused rating, lmao. I'd tackle this waste of money too, the belief that your 4 channel and mono class d amps require the 0 gauge run, but as frustrating as this thread has been, I don't believe I have the patience......


That would all depend on the distance from the battery, and how much voltage drop would be acceptable. Those efficient class D amps do not need as much of a wire size increase as their power hungry class AB's do, that's for sure.


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## lynchknot (Sep 27, 2014)

"the big three without an alternator upgrade" ok, tell me why?

I did the big 1 with 4ga.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Kjekz said:


> All this discussion about wire size has made me confused.
> 
> Is there any kind of chart i would be able to follow?


Absolutely,,,


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

gstokes said:


> Absolutely,,,


That's a slick chart.. Makes me think in real world at well above "sq" levels, just how much current a V9 and F4 PDX amp pair are actually pulling. I suspect it'd be darn impossible to get anywhere near where their fuses are, or the 80A I have at the battery. I'd be willing to bet I could even run a good 8 AWG instead of 4 and still be as happy as a pig in poo without wire issues.. Just good and solid terminations, key.


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## timps67 (Dec 29, 2012)

claydo said:


> If you pull directly from your alt, you will kill it if your draw surpass it's capabilities......this is why I'm a diehard battery upgrade recommender......lol. Your alt is there to supply an overvoltage situation *for you battery to store*....that's it, fight the fact that the stored energy in the battery is the source all you like, without *the battery in between to buffer the demand with its massive amperage reserves*, the alt will self destruct. Have you read the thread, or did you just add your 2 cents?
> 
> Actually, I may have to retract this statement, because as long as the battery is in the curcuit, the storage is there......but, if you wire this way, you will have to do the big three I so dispute, because then the wires between the alt and battery will now be carrying the full load of the systems demand, vs just the capability of the alt........sheesh....


I don't know where you learned about a car's electrical system, but you're wrong. You are right about the two statements I highlighted though. A battery in a car has 4 jobs, store power to start a car, start a car, provide extra power when the charging system needs it (bass notes) and stabilize the voltage in a car. Once the car is started the alternator runs the car. This is why in older cars we disconnect the battery after the car is started to see if the alternator is bad. An older car can run forever without a battery as long as the alternator is good and it has gas, the same cannot be said about a battery. The reason a new car won't run without the battery is because of the ECU seeing something wrong, not because the battery is the source of power in a car.

As for the big 3, not really going to get into that. It made a difference in my truck before I even thought about a stereo. Larger wire = less resistance, with electricity less resistance is usually a good thing.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Holy ****.....that was brilliant. I just changed my mind, disregard this thread. I'm completely endorsing the big three, and will now perform it on every car I own, my tractor, and my lawnmower just in case. I don't know what I was thinking........


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

So you are arguing against something even after logic has prevailed? 
What a winner


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> So you are arguing against something even after logic has prevailed?
> What a winner


Who is arguing, I have changed my whole belief system! I just hope I can figure out this whole 12 volt thing one day, or is that 14 volt.....hmmm?

Oh, and you calling names........that's pathetic.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

You think you know that 12v thing. 
You have proven you don't.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Oh, if only we could all be as sharp as you mr fusion......no, really....


If I changed my build to all digital designs, would you be my friend?

Of course I have to finish my big 3 first.........


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

@timps67.FYI New cars runs just fine with battery disconnected. Unless it`s tesla, which throw bunch of BS on the screen.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

gckless said:


> Exactly right. I had a 500A ammeter in my Blazer (with a shunt wired in and everything), and I generally never saw above 200-250A draws on music with a DC 5k amp at full tilt. Of course, there are certain forums where not many people believed it, I'll leave that to you to guess, but it was accurate.


I believe you, without a doubt..

Shunt wired is the only way to get accurate amperage readings and depending on the music that was being played and how 'dynamic' it was, is it hitting the low notes down there around 20Hz, all that stuff makes huge difference in how much current an amplifier will draw, assuming the available amperage is there for the amplifier too draw..

250 amps x 14.4 volts = 3600 Wrms ?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

claydo said:


> Oh, if only we could all be as sharp as you mr fusion......no, really....
> 
> 
> If I changed my build to all digital designs, would you be my friend?
> ...


Nah, gotta have hertz too. Heard they only sound good in the car though so don't bother demoing them on the board first.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

claydo said:


> Who is arguing, I have changed my whole belief system! I just hope I can figure out this whole 12 volt thing one day, or is that 14 volt.....hmmm?
> 
> Oh, and you calling names........that's pathetic.


Agreed, on another forum they had a feature where you could ignore someones posts and didn't have to read them, unless you wanted too..

A little notice would pop up saying (this persons posts has been hidden, click here if you want to read)..

We need that here because i would one of the firsts to hide DD Fusions posts, sometimes he can be helpful but other times can be quite rude and disrespectful..

I have been guilty of same thing *in the past* but i always backed off or apologized..


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Trophys for all the losers.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gstokes said:


> Agreed, on another forum they had a feature where you could ignore someones posts and didn't have to read them, unless you wanted too..
> 
> A little notice would pop up saying (this persons posts has been hidden, click here if you want to read)..
> 
> ...


There is an option. I don't ignore him because I find his posts entertaining to an extent. They sure kept me entertained on my 14 hours of traveling today lol

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Trophys for all the losers.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

gstokes said:


> Agreed, on another forum they had a feature where you could ignore someones posts and didn't have to read them, unless you wanted too..
> 
> A little notice would pop up saying (this persons posts has been hidden, click here if you want to read)..
> 
> ...


 It is here as well, go to your control panel and start adding assholes to the list, I have plenty on that list


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Victor_inox said:


> It is here as well, go to your control panel and start adding assholes to the list, I have plenty on that list


Thank you very much Victor, the Ignore List is very helpful to keep the stress level down..


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

gstokes said:


> Thank you very much Victor, the Ignore List is very helpful to keep the stress level down..


I agree, good way to keep sanity around here.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Victor_inox said:


> I agree, good way to keep sanity around here.


Same reasoning behind deleting my facebook account and not watching or reading the news or mainstream media or talk radio, try to keep myself pretty isolated from the hostilities and chaos..

And it's working to ease the depression and make me a happier person..


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## gumbeelee (Jan 3, 2011)

DDfusion said:


> Trophys for all the losers.



U would get the MVP


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## timps67 (Dec 29, 2012)

claydo said:


> Holy ****.....that was brilliant. I just changed my mind, disregard this thread. I'm completely endorsing the big three, and will now perform it on every car I own, my tractor, and my lawnmower just in case. I don't know what I was thinking........


No need to be an ass about it. The science proves that voltage, current and resistance are all related. That doesn't mean the big 3 is some sort of magic fix-all for every electrical problem in a car but if the application calls for it go ahead and do it. Too many people just do it because everyone says you need the big 3 when all they may need to do is clean or replace some connections.

@ Victor, good to know. I wouldn't try it too often though.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

timps67 said:


> No need to be an ass about it...


There's been enough name calling for one day, let's take a break ..


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

timps67 said:


> No need to be an ass about it. The science proves that voltage, current and resistance are all related. That doesn't mean the big 3 is some sort of magic fix-all for every electrical problem in a car but if the application calls for it go ahead and do it. Too many people just do it because everyone says you need the big 3 when all they may need to do is clean or replace some connections.
> 
> @ Victor, good to know. I wouldn't try it too often though.


Sure there was a need to be an ass. Your post was the exact same post, damn near word or word, that had been posted multiple times throughout the thread........

If your post reiterates the same arguement that's already been discussed, you should always expect sarcasm.

Seriously tho, when you deal with the likes of Mr fusion around here pretty often, you get bitter and tend to lash out at unsuspecting folks such as yer self. However, you began you post with a thinly veiled "you have no idea what you're talking about" so you get what you get. Read back, a little more careful this time and see if your points were already made, the rehash is really the cause of the assholedness......the only new part is the reference to old cars vs new......


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

claydo said:


> Oh, if only we could all be as sharp as you mr fusion......no, really....
> 
> 
> If I changed my build to all digital designs, would you be my friend?
> ...



I'd say keep in mind how much real world current you think the sound system is going to pull also. Given that I'm sure you'll use good quality OFC, as do I. When I really looked it it wresting with thick ass 1/0 that was a pain to work with in the little Civic, I decided screw it!!  And did it cleaner and easier with 4 awg and I have no fear of wire gauge envy. Especially considering I did the big-3 WITH leaving the OEM runs rather than removing them. 

And polarity too. Yeah. Remember that. No midnight tired hookups in a hurry. LOL!!! 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Hold on babs.....you didn't pick up any sarcasm in that post? 

Dood!........I'm disappointed.

Repeat after me.........claydo will never waste wire where it is not needed.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

*&quot;the big three&quot; ok, tell me why?*



claydo said:


> Hold on babs.....you didn't pick up any sarcasm in that post?
> 
> Dood!........I'm disappointed.
> 
> Repeat after me.........claydo will never waste wire where it is not needed.



My sarc-radar has been down as of late. Wife driving my Civic listening to my tunes because her radiator blew then a German shorthair pointer having a kind of an explosion in the back seat of same civic on the way to the vet for tummy issues has a brutha kinda down.  why I drink. No question. 


On wasting wire, I can show you a literal bucket of 1/0 from 12 ft down to 8" and everything in between. I guess maybe the Tacoma won't have issues finding wire. Except the cab is too small for enough amps to actually need pinky-sized wire. LOL!


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

wasting wire? i guess your talking about those idiots using 4/0 with a 200 amp fuse? :worried:


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## zapcoaudio (Sep 26, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> wasting wire? i guess your talking about those idiots using 4/0 with a 200 amp fuse? :worried:


not only wasting wire, but also adding on dead weight.


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

"Upgrading" the big 3 are mainly to prevent fire and ensuring close to 0 resistance, simple as that. Like if your amp are pulling 30A but you are using the normal 12-16AWG of power wire, you may end up burning your whole car down. My car was the best example, the air cond using 30A of fuse but was using 16AWG wire, the wire and fuse box melted with the fuse still not blown.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ok ive seen some cars with skimpy wire, but 12-16 gauge? lets get real.. there is not a single car with 16 gauge alternator wire. id also doubt there is a car with 12 gauge alternator wire


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Babs said:


> I'd say keep in mind how much real world current you think the sound system is going to pull also.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> ok ive seen some cars with skimpy wire, but 12-16 gauge? lets get real.. there is not a single car with 16 gauge alternator wire. id also doubt there is a car with 12 gauge alternator wire


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## skotti (Feb 2, 2009)

I usually just lurk around checking out builds and what not. Occassionally i do check out these threads but usually glaze over because so much math and talk that i just dont understand pops up. This never happened here. 

So i fully get what OP is saying. Based on that being said and the other sides responses. Id side with "Big 3" total waste.

So to see if anyone can produce any math to make me gloss over and go back to the build threads. The Opposing side, most used term is resistance. Bigger wire less resistance. So isnt that where this thread should now go. even though the meme are funny.

I found this site. bulkwire.com/wireresistance.asp ,Wire Resistance and Voltage Drop Calculator, whether its math is correct or not i dont know. Kinda supports the resistance theory. To a good enough extent to warrant the "Big 3"?


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> ok ive seen some cars with skimpy wire, but 12-16 gauge? lets get real.. there is not a single car with 16 gauge alternator wire. id also doubt there is a car with 12 gauge alternator wire


Is not the main wire, more on the fuse box to appliance wire.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

skotti said:


> I usually just lurk around checking out builds and what not. Occassionally i do check out these threads but usually glaze over because so much math and talk that i just dont understand pops up. This never happened here.
> 
> So i fully get what OP is saying. Based on that being said and the other sides responses. Id side with "Big 3" total waste.
> 
> ...


Somewhere you lost track of what the Big 3 is about, it's not about voltage drop or minimum resistance, *it's about upgrading the charging circuit to match the increased load and/or when the alternator has been upgraded*, the factory wiring is usually sufficient for the cars designer and the expected load on the charging system but as the load is increased and the demand for more current becomes apparent the factory charging circuit becomes inadequate..

This is why we do the Big 3..


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

gstokes said:


> Somewhere you lost track of what the Big 3 is about, it's not about voltage drop or minimum resistance, *it's about upgrading the charging circuit to match the increased load and/or when the alternator has been upgraded*, the factory wiring is usually sufficient for the cars designer and the expected load on the charging system but as the load is increased and the demand for more current becomes apparent the factory charging circuit becomes inadequate..
> 
> This is why we do the Big 3..


Voltage drop and resistance became the new arguement when folks realized that a 140 amp alt will never produce more than 140 amps, no matter the load on the system......the only time you need any change on the charging system, is if you upgrade your alternator.


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## Goldcar (Dec 8, 2015)

I know my last posts didn't sound like it, but I agree with you guys for the most part. On paper there are benefits, in real world things start to become a matter of being realistic.

Its no resistance theory, its fact. Of course there will be some benefit of larger wire. The point that is firmly rooted here is is it worth it? Sure bigger wire is almost always better, but there is a point where it does not matter (not really worth it). Some believe that is already in or close to stock format. Once you hit a certain gauge, you are just adding weight really, the resistance benefit becomes negligible. Depending on car setup... might need it.... might not.

edit: this was in response to the guy a few posts ago, some posts happened while typing+making coffee, but damn you guys are quick.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Nobody thinks the big 3 will make the alternator produce more current. 
It's the flow of produced current that improves. If you are going over the designed daily current draw


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## washesp (Jan 11, 2016)

All I know if you want to be an ass and dump a lot of audio equipment or whatever into your car and not upgrade the wiring inn your vehicle best be ready for an electrical fire


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Nobody thinks the big 3 will make the alternator produce more current.
> It's the flow of produced current that improves. If you are going over the designed daily current draw


Designed daily current draw......lmao.


----------



## Goldcar (Dec 8, 2015)

lol


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

washesp said:


> All I know if you want to be an ass and dump a lot of audio equipment or whatever into your car and not upgrade the wiring inn your vehicle best be ready for an electrical fire


Dude, no one is claiming that you can wire your sub amp into the trunk light here. If you had read the thread, maybe you would know that.....lol.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

claydo said:


> Designed daily current draw......lmao.


i also usually think hes out of his mind, and on paper you should be correct. but every time i have done the big 3, there has been some sort of improvement


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Ok skizer.....what improved, be specific?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

claydo said:


> Ok skizer.....what improved, be specific?


 when 3 things replaced at the same time how would you tell which thing improved? I see that all the time with electronics "upgrades"


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I guess my heated seats draw as much as the amps


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> I guess my heated seats draw as much as the amps


Don't matter what anything draws man....jesus. My question for you is how many amps can you draw from a 140 amp alternator, max?


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

140 amps at most. That's not what the misunderstanding is. 
Picture this
Can a battery discharge just as fast as a cap? No, the cap will have less resistance. Same concept applies. To a point of diminishing returns.


----------



## skotti (Feb 2, 2009)

I was mainly pointing out from what i was reading, trying to put eveything i know aside, that this thread wasnt helping or going anywhere. Except if anyone had any doubt before hand. This thread will end your searches, guaranteed! If you wanted to know if you should upgrade the wiring when going to a higher output alternator. Yes!

I was trying to get people to actually start posting facts and back it up. Instead of just the subjective crap. 




DDfusion said:


> I guess my heated seats draw as much as the amps


Which is taken into account when the alternator was selected for the vehicle, along with everything else the vehicle is designed with, ie appropriate sized wire. 

Where i see this thread is, not so much the big 3, but when to increase the output of the alternator, but crap, big 3 comes into play cuz now we have to change the alternator. oh i dont know.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> 140 amps at most. That's not what the misunderstanding is.
> Picture this
> Can a battery discharge just as fast as a cap? No, the cap will have less resistance. Same concept applies. To a point of diminishing returns.


 Battery discharge as fast as load demanding if there is adequate wiring from battery to load.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I think clay thinks we all think this upgrade makes the alternator produce more power. We don't think that. 
We do however know it helps said power flow with less resistance, essentially speeding up the flow and helping voltage drop issues


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Victor_inox said:


> Battery discharge as fast as load demanding if there is adequate wiring from battery to load.


You will see ultra caps have better SPL scores than only batteries. Even thought he battery has a larger reserve


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> You will see ultra caps have better SPL scores than only batteries. Even thought he battery has a larger reserve


What does that prove (if that is the case)?


----------



## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

claydo said:


> Don't matter what anything draws man....jesus. My question for you is how many amps can you draw from a 140 amp alternator, max?


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Bank of super caps hold charging voltage that is 13.8-14.4 therefore when engine running it charge caps to 14.4 or so. Switch battery to 16volt version and if you after spl.
I have some I experiment with.

View attachment 121154









Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

If you switch to a 16v battery you need a 18v charging system.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I just explained supercap remark.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Not really. We are talking about the car running. That's a fair comparison


----------



## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Vic, I can't answer the why or how but I do know that the the new thing for SPL comps is 20 caps instead of 4 batteries (or whatever). They say it's because of faster discharge for that quick note where you hit that high decibel level. I'm not sure if it can be backed up but it makes some sense. It seems that if your are draining the electricity from the battery to the point that only the alt's power is being utilized then the thicker wire would allow the power to get to the battery a bit quicker? less resistance does equal faster travel. It would still be the same amount of power just a bit faster? I mean if the factory wire is proper size to begin with at what point does less resistance turn in to diminishing returns. Either way it has to be minute. I am a advocate for the big three. I know it's works. But honestly before this thread I never thought about the fact it was only "the two" helping and the third was likely a waste.


----------



## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

What i find interesting about the chart is they calculate that a 2ft length of 8 gauge wire can handle 300 amps with a 13.8 volt source voltage, since most vehicles use 8 gauge wire on the charging post let's measure the longest possible length the factory would use and see how much current it can handle,, so from the alternator to the fuse block and back to the battery (6 ft) and 6 ft of 8 gauge is good for, I'm guessing 75 amps max by the time it reaches the battery so what i would do is: keep the 3 ft factory line that runs from alternator to fuse block but terminate the return line to the battery, then run another 3ft 8 gauge line from the alternator charging post to an inline fuse and then to the battery positive, now you have two circuits leaving the alternator and each 3ft 8 gauge circuit is good for 150 amps..

The car needs 50 amps to run leaving you 100 amps for the sound system and you most likely have 10 ft runs of 4 gauge or 15 ft runs of 2 gauge or bigger so..

Now i can see the true benefits of the Big 3 and how it may be overkill in some scenarios but it's definitely not a bad idea and any day you can increase the current carrying capacity of a circuit is a good day..

Like i said before, current follows the path of least resistance so build it a low resistance path for it to follow..

Wire Resistance and Voltage Drop Calculator


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> 140 amps at most.


So, you admit that no matter the load, the factory charging circuit can by no means pass more than 140 amps.

Ok, now that we agree there, then is the factory charging circuit wiring good for 140 amps? Forget voltage drop, forget resistance, will it carry 140 amps without overheating and failing?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Depends on what's already there. But I bet if it's doing it for a long period of time the heat will play against it.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

DDfusion said:


> Depends on what's already there. But I bet if it's doing it for a long period of time the heat will play against it.


Hold on, stay with me, will it carry the 140 amps safely? How many factory charging circuits have ever burned down a car?

I know you want to put me in my place with your wit, but yes or no will do, please.....


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Is any car meant to handle 100s of extra amps of draw?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Dammit man, stay with me........Will it yes or no?


----------



## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Also it's not my wit it's your lack of common sence.


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Just answer the fookin question dood!!!!!!!!


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

The answer is, don't know. Ever senerio is different. 

Now let me ask you something that's easy to answer. 

In the same thing. Speaker, amp, ect 
Is the larger always going to be the most efficient if it's not running at its maximum capacity?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Hold on....you don't know if the factory specified charging circuit wire will hold the factory alternators amperage?

How many cars have you lost due to this phenomenon?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Theslaking said:


> Vic, I can't answer the why or how but I do know that the the new thing for SPL comps is 20 caps instead of 4 batteries (or whatever). They say it's because of faster discharge for that quick note where you hit that high decibel level. I'm not sure if it can be backed up but it makes some sense. It seems that if your are draining the electricity from the battery to the point that only the alt's power is being utilized then the thicker wire would allow the power to get to the battery a bit quicker? less resistance does equal faster travel. It would still be the same amount of power just a bit faster? I mean if the factory wire is proper size to begin with at what point does less resistance turn in to diminishing returns. Either way it has to be minute. I am a advocate for the big three. I know it's works. But honestly before this thread I never thought about the fact it was only "the two" helping and the third was likely a waste.


 Last thing i will be drugged discussing is SPL benefits. caps not discharge faster but charged faster than batteries to the voltage provided by alternator, if you install 16volt batteries effect would be the same. If you run 4AWG from alt to battery or 00 there will be no difference. Whoever insist that it is either missing something or purposely hiding something to qualify in desired competition class. There is a benefit of replacing 8awg with 4AWG but zero benefits in thicker wire. same with ground. replacing alternator would be best anyway.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Dd fusion, how can I help you see my point, if you won't answer simple questions in fear that you will prove your own theories wrong. You speak all fluent in all things car audio, but if the pissing match ends and someone pins you down, you run screaming for conflict with your insults........you're hopeless dood......

To anyone who argues the benefit of the big three, answer the simple questions I asked Mr fusion.....honestly, and when you say yes to the last question he so fervently wouldn't answer, my response would have been to him...........

Ok, so if the charging circuit will never carry more than the designed output current of the alternator, no matter the load, and the factory wiring is completely adequate at carrying the stock alternators current, why would you need to upgrade it? Simple answer is, you wouldnt, and don't need to. Load be damned, the only current the charging circuit is gonna see is what's produced by the alternator.....anything in excess of that is coming strictly from the batteries reserves.....period. End of story.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

claydo said:


> Ok skizer.....what improved, be specific?


always more stable voltage. in my old car it completely rid the headlight dimming


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

More stable voltage...... As in you had voltage fluctuation? How bad was this voltage fluctuation? Sounds mysteriously like you repaired a faulty ground.

Try the whole question answer thing I tried with Mr fusion.....it can only lead you to one conclusion.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

claydo said:


> More stable voltage...... As in you had voltage fluctuation? How bad was this voltage fluctuation? Sounds mysteriously like you repaired a faulty ground.


probably just a ****ty factory ground. every time ive done that, ive also done the engine ground and alt to battery. no reason not to besides an hour of time and 4 feet of wire


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> probably just a ****ty factory ground. every time ive done that, ive also done the engine ground and alt to battery. no reason not to besides an hour of time and 4 feet of wire


I have no problem with troubleshooting and fixing a faulty ground, I'm merely contesting the thought that the big three is mandatory. I know it's not expensive, but other than the "look" of it there simply isn't any reasoning behind the mass acceptance of the process.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

claydo said:


> I have no problem with troubleshooting and fixing a faulty ground, I'm merely contesting the thought that the big three is mandatory. I know it's not expensive, but other than the "look" of it there simply isn't any reasoning behind the mass acceptance of the process.


ive never done just the alt wire, or just the ground, so idk. but what i do know is that every time ive done a big 3, there has always been an improvement of some sort. hope im actually answering your question unlike DD over there lol. speaking of that, i see your point. on paper it totally makes sense. but, its just not what ive experienced in real scenarios


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Victor_inox said:


> Last thing i will be drugged discussing is SPL benefits. caps not discharge faster but charged faster than batteries to the voltage provided by alternator, if you install 16volt batteries effect would be the same. If you run 4AWG from alt to battery or 00 there will be no difference. Whoever insist that it is either missing something or purposely hiding something to qualify in desired competition class. There is a benefit of replacing 8awg with 4AWG but zero benefits in thicker wire. same with ground. replacing alternator would be best anyway.


I didn't know how the caps operate vs batteries. Like I said and you reiterated. After a certain size wire it just does not matter anymore. Which is based on the alts max rating. I now believe in Claydo's point of this thread. There is a point to the "Big Three" but the name encompasses unnecessary upgrades when just calling it the "Big Ground" would be more conducive to implicating improvement.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

So, you always see voltage fluctuation in your installs? Or is there other benefits as well?........just trying to get to the bottom of the consistent improvement in yer real world applications that would prove what makes sense on paper wrong.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Theslaking said:


> I didn't know how the caps operate vs batteries. Like I said and you reiterated. After a certain size wire it just does not matter anymore. Which is based on the alts max rating. I now believe in Claydo's point of this thread. There is a point to the "Big Three" but the name encompasses unnecessary upgrades when just calling it the "Big Ground" would be more conducive to implicating improvement.


Ah ha, ok, so like I said to skeezer, if'n you have a ground problem causing voltage fluctuations or inconsistencies, by all means fix it. I'm just tired of everyone recommending this to everyone in the hobby, especially if they are new, for no good reason. Also, I just wanted to challenge the veterans on why they feel it's mandatory, does anyone have any reason it is.......nobody did. People just do it because they've been told it is the thing to do.......and that's ********. Or at least I feel like it's ********, and I want you (everybody) to as well....lol.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I don't know the answer. I don't know how much of the alternator the car needs at any given time. I do know it was not designed to run full tilt all the time. 
Do you know heat is the killer of efficency? 

It works. It has always worked. It's not voodoo.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

It's kind of one of those things where it is partly correct and little loss so stubborn people won't change. I had never thought past "it works". Never broke down which piece was actually causing the change. Now I realize. You have succeeded in getting me to stop blindly suggesting "the big 3". It's somewhat mute for me as I have always upgraded my alts in every car I own. But who knows, maybe that's a waste too.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

What has he said that made you think otherwise?


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## LaydSierra (Aug 20, 2009)

*Re: &quot;the big three&quot; ok, tell me why?*



claydo said:


> So, you admit that no matter the load, the factory charging circuit can by no means pass more than 140 amps.
> 
> Ok, now that we agree there, then is the factory charging circuit wiring good for 140 amps? Forget voltage drop, forget resistance, will it carry 140 amps without overheating and failing?





claydo said:


> Hold on, stay with me, will it carry the 140 amps safely? How many factory charging circuits have ever burned down a car?
> 
> I know you want to put me in my place with your wit, but yes or no will do, please.....


Supposedly it cannot pass more than the manufactures amperage rating but you never know...this is from a stock VW, no stereo or electrical mods at all


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

*Re: &quot;the big three&quot; ok, tell me why?*



LaydSierra said:


> Supposedly it cannot pass more than the manufactures amperage rating but you never know...this is from a stock VW, no stereo or electrical mods at all


It`s VW, buy a car next time.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

:snacks:


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

*Re: &quot;the big three&quot; ok, tell me why?*



Theslaking said:


> It's kind of one of those things where it is partly correct and little loss so stubborn people won't change. I had never thought past "it works". Never broke down which piece was actually causing the change. Now I realize. You have succeeded in getting me to stop blindly suggesting "the big 3". It's somewhat mute for me as I have always upgraded my alts in every car I own. But who knows, maybe that's a waste too.


Lol, alternator upgrades a waste, well, maybe, it depends on your gear and listening habits. It is easily diagnosed if you do.........If you've upgraded to the largest battery you can fit, always the first thing I do, and your having voltage drop or trouble maitaining "charging" voltage (over 13 volts) while rocking out with the car running, I wouldn't call that a waste. Or, if you are running a bank of batteries, and you can't maitain a charging voltage while running after some key off listening, then maybe it would be a good plan there too. Otherwise, I'd say complete waste........



LaydSierra said:


> Supposedly it cannot pass more than the manufactures amperage rating but you never know...this is from a stock VW, no stereo or electrical mods at all


Failure can happen at anytime, with any electrical system. What ever failed there obviously was serious.....I doubt wiring upgrades would've stopped that, lol. Looks like failure of a fused link maybe?


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## Kjekz (Jul 16, 2014)

that fusebox looks to be a golf/bora mk4 one? (or passat b5) If thats the case it is a known issue that the fuseleads fail over time, so worth upgrading the fuse there.


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## LaydSierra (Aug 20, 2009)

*Re: &quot;the big three&quot; ok, tell me why?*



claydo said:


> Failure can happen at anytime, with any electrical system. What ever failed there obviously was serious.....I doubt wiring upgrades would've stopped that, lol. Looks like failure of a fused link maybe?


Actually, wiring upgrades is what corrected it. The factory charging wire had built up an internal resistance due to heat soak & it's size. The computer read from that distribution block & constantly demanded more from the alternator to charge the battery & keep the accessories running until it melted it lol

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

*Re: &quot;the big three&quot; ok, tell me why?*



LaydSierra said:


> Actually, wiring upgrades is what corrected it. The factory charging wire had built up an internal resistance due to heat soak & it's size. The computer read from that distribution block & constantly demanded more from the alternator to charge the battery & keep the accessories running until it melted it lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


You mean the line wasn't fused to protect it from complete failure? ....I mean hey, it was bone stock, so this is engineering facepalm, lol. It is volkswagon tho.......I don't believe this is common.....if it is, they should've recalled because they have fooked up....

I still stick by my arguement even if Google can turn up a failure of factory wiring......lmao. I'm sure the results on aftermarket wiring search could be fruitful as well......just sayin.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

DDfusion said:


> What has he said that made you think otherwise?


No one said anything that I didn't already know pertaining to the big three. Claydo just made me think about it. The resistance from an adequately sized factory wire is not so much more than you get from a wire 1 size up that it could possible make a noticeable difference. And once you get to a certain size unless the material itself is changed to a more conductive material the resistance gets so low that the electricity has reached it's max travel speed. And we are likely talking less than an 18" run. So no, I no longer think with a factory alt is it necessary to upgrade the power wire to the battery. I do however still think changing grounds and terminations is a must.


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## LaydSierra (Aug 20, 2009)

*Re: &quot;the big three&quot; ok, tell me why?*



claydo said:


> You mean the line wasn't fused to protect it from complete failure? ....I mean hey, it was bone stock, so this is engineering facepalm, lol. It is volkswagon tho.......I don't believe this is common.....if it is, they should've recalled because they have fooked up....


It was fused in the junction block & yeah it was bone stock (exs car). Come to find out it was more common than you'd think & it's scary knowing those damn things are still out there on the road lol.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Victor_inox said:


> Bank of super caps hold charging voltage that is 13.8-14.4 therefore when engine running it charge caps to 14.4 or so. Switch battery to 16volt version and if you after spl.
> I have some I experiment with.


I bought a kit of ebay with maxwell supercaps and put it together but haven't done much it except make some big sparks and temporarily blind myelf 

Caps are cool and most people think they totally discharge when used as a line conditioner (like in car audio) when in fact they only partially discharge just enough to fill the void in the line as the voltage drops and the drop may only be 2 or 3 volts for that split second and they instantly recharge so most people just don't understand how caps work and that's why they get bad reputation in some circles..


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

*Re: &quot;the big three&quot; ok, tell me why?*



LaydSierra said:


> It was fused in the junction block & yeah it was bone stock (exs car). Come to find out it was more common than you'd think & it's scary knowing those damn things are still out there on the road lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


"German engineering"


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## Beckerson1 (Jul 3, 2012)

claydo said:


> Ah ha, ok, so like I said to skeezer, if'n you have a ground problem causing voltage fluctuations or inconsistencies, by all means fix it. I'm just tired of everyone recommending this to everyone in the hobby, especially if they are new, for no good reason. Also, I just wanted to challenge the veterans on why they feel it's mandatory, does anyone have any reason it is.......nobody did. People just do it because they've been told it is the thing to do.......and that's ********. Or at least I feel like it's ********, and I want you (everybody) to as well....lol.


Nobody said its mandatory. It's just accepted as gospel. I do agree with you on the alt wire as far as stock goes. Many cases with the newer cars those who bypass the stock wire also bypass the stock safety feature built into the design. There is a reason beyond the fuse on the main fuse box. Say the battery should fail (be it a loose or the battery just completely die) you'd still have power to safely stop the vehicle. Once you bypass this, you'd be screwed. Fuel, Air, Spark. No spark=no boom

I do appreciate you bring this up though. Made me think about the process more. I don't feel its completely useless (not focusing on one part of the big 3 either) but is something that is determined based upon condition of the stock wiring, connections, and any future upgrades.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Beckerson1 said:


> I do appreciate you bring this up though. Made me think about the process more. I don't feel its completely useless (not focusing on one part of the big 3 either) but is something that is determined based upon condition of the stock wiring, connections, and any future upgrades.


This was exactly what I intended, to get people thinking. Most do accept it without stopping to think, because everyone preaches it. I knew if the arguement was presented, and intelligent folks weighed it, they would see the lack of logic. If folks weigh it and decide to still do it, it doesent hurt me a bit, that's cool, just wanted to inspire some thought into the subject, and challenge the marketing hype that justifies it.

Well, that, and I can be an arrogant prick....and I knew there was no logic to defeat my stance.....lmao....but hey, at least I'm honest......


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

What marketing hype? It's a few bucks and most don't even know it exists. 

And it's not bypassing anything it's piggybacking.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

You are talking like the big 3 is hype like LPs claim to unstoppable dampening factor.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

gstokes said:


> I bought a kit of ebay with maxwell supercaps and put it together but haven't done much it except make some big sparks and temporarily blind myelf
> 
> Caps are cool and most people think they totally discharge when used as a line conditioner (like in car audio) when in fact they only partially discharge just enough to fill the void in the line as the voltage drops and the drop may only be 2 or 3 volts for that split second and they instantly recharge so most people just don't understand how caps work and that's why they get bad reputation in some circles..


supercaps are awesome! I use some much smaller in power supplies. It`s cost prohibitive at this time but cost is coming down.


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

DDfusion said:


> What marketing hype? It's a few bucks and most don't even know it exists.


Sonic Electronics advertises 9 different "big three" packages, ranging from a $39.99 Belva kit to $153.66 for a Kicker kit. It is not an "insider thing".


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Never miss a business opportunity! 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

Victor_inox said:


> Never miss a business opportunity!
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


Absolutely!


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I know for a fact that sonic founder was on this very forum,maybe still is.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

Do you know his name on here?

I'd like to bug him about opening a storefront in the Louisville location.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Don't remember,been a while

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## vwguy383 (Dec 4, 2008)

*Re: &quot;the big three&quot; ok, tell me why?*



Victor_inox said:


> It`s VW, buy a car next time.


I represent that! VW's are great cars!


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Only thing worse is VW fanboys.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


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## vwguy383 (Dec 4, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> Only thing worse is VW fanboys.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk


Only thing worst then what?


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Volkswagen cars

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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Easy now, i love VW's and had both a Beetle and a Bus and had plenty of good memories to go with bot of them..

Victor, i would love to have a GAZ Volga Coupe, choice of the KGB and most surely the coolest car ever made..
Volga V-12 Coupe - Feature - Car and Driver


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

gstokes said:


> Easy now, i love VW's and had both a Beetle and a Bus and had plenty of good memories to go with bot of them..
> 
> Victor, i would love to have a GAZ Volga Coupe, choice of the KGB and most surely the coolest car ever made..
> Volga V-12 Coupe - Feature - Car and Driver



Don`t compare classic VW with puke they made today.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

claydo said:


> So, you always see voltage fluctuation in your installs? Or is there other benefits as well?........just trying to get to the bottom of the consistent improvement in yer real world applications that would prove what makes sense on paper wrong.


only done them on installs that called for it. hardly ever did them at the shop. only stuff for my cars or friends with high wattage. i think we can all agree that its not so much the wire, but also the upgrade in connections (mostly grounds) that help


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: &quot;the big three&quot; ok, tell me why?*



Victor_inox said:


> It`s VW, buy a car next time.


damn. beat me to it :laugh:


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: &quot;the big three&quot; ok, tell me why?*



claydo said:


> You mean the line wasn't fused to protect it from complete failure? ....I mean hey, it was bone stock, so this is engineering facepalm, lol. It is volkswagon tho.......I don't believe this is common.....if it is, they should've recalled because they have fooked up....
> 
> I still stick by my arguement even if Google can turn up a failure of factory wiring......lmao. I'm sure the results on aftermarket wiring search could be fruitful as well......just sayin.


remember that one time you said...



claydo said:


> How many factory charging circuits have ever burned down a car?



well there you go.


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

After all this discussion, pros and cons, the common drift that I'm picking up is:

Q) Prove to me the "big 3" makes a difference

A) Well, it does

Q) Quantify that, or I'll claim that you're full of ****

A) OK, If that makes you feel better

It seems these two schools of thought will never merge, so I'll suggest a compromise:

As a good rule of thumb, even on factory systems... Grab your charging cable after you've been operating for a while at high load levels and see if it's notably warmer than its surroundings. If it is, you are losing at least a few amps to heat because your wiring isn't efficiently carrying the load- You are a good candidate for a cable upgrade. If the cable is insufficient to carry the amperage load demanded, it is essentially a resistor, and resistors heat up...

Factory charge cables, though not "technically" fused, often include a short span of solid, undersized conductor which is intended to melt and open the circuit in a sustained over-draw situation.

These cables are known to have performed their duty on numerous occasion.

Personally, and this is my opinion only (bolstered by simple fact), I submit the following:

If one is truly focused upon getting the most they can from what they have, the "big 3" is pretty cheap, and will without a doubt deliver some degree of improvement, whether it makes your sound cleaner, amps run cooler, makes your SPL bigger or any or all of the above.

It is not worth arguing at which specific point it starts to make a notable improvement. It will be an improvement. Some will argue that it's not, but any time you can deliver a more efficient flow of current through your system, it will be an improvement, whether you choose to affirm that fact or not.

We all know that larger conductors become necessary at a certain point, and that there is never a point where choosing a larger conductor induces a detriment to performance regardless of amperage demands.

In my opinion, this entire thread has turned into a pissing match regarding whether it's worth doing or not worth doing... I don't know about you guys, but if I were being paid to read this, the time I've spent reading this is worth far more than the content of its arguments.


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

By the way, I believe that a discussion regarding the placement of "Tibetan Bowls" and their sonic benefits to your listening environment would be slightly more interesting than this...


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> remember that one time you said...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lmao, yup, challenge folks to find one in a million, and by God, sure enough......I claimed it, he showed it. I hate to slam vw, but after their whole lie about the emissions thing, well, funny how quick that went quiet, money talks. I'm very glad this is the exception to the rule, otherwise I'd have never been making this arguement.



XSIV SPL said:


> By the way, I believe that a discussion regarding the placement of "Tibetan Bowls" and their sonic benefits to your listening environment would be slightly more interesting than this...


Yet you still have to come back and wave yer flag, "listen to me, guys, listen to me, it works because I say so, there will be improvements, I have no facts to state, but it works because upping wire gauge cannot hurt anything" lmao.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

The wiring upgrade I was going to do on my truck was already done at the factory with what appears to be 4g wire going from batt negative to the fender. I love the clean look of one fused wire wrapped in loom going through the firewall. You have to actually LOOK to see it. Clay has seen the simple goodness. And to be honest, I'm lucky to have an electrical system that was designed to have stuff added to it. I have seen the big 3 fix a bad ground loop, but my suspicion is the truck that got the sudden ground noise might have had a factory ground strap compromised in the deer woods. My buddy has always had 2wd trucks and you have to thrash them around quite a bit harder to keep from getting stuck in the mud. He's settled down over the past 10-15 years though.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

XSIV SPL said:


> By the way, I believe that a discussion regarding the placement of "Tibetan Bowls" and their sonic benefits to your listening environment would be slightly more interesting than this...


Well yeah! But they have to have varying dimensions or you'll get a common modal resonance.


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

claydo said:


> Yet you still have to come back and wave yer flag, "listen to me, guys, listen to me, it works because I say so, there will be improvements, I have no facts to state, but it works because upping wire gauge cannot hurt anything" lmao.


This was a predictable response. 

Almost as predictable as the results one could expect by performing a power and ground upgrade.


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## XSIV SPL (Jun 24, 2014)

Babs said:


> Well yeah! But they have to have varying dimensions or you'll get a common modal resonance.


Indeed! 

Who wants to fire up the technical discussion? I'd love to hear what folks have to say about that... Especially if they didn't have to Google the term first!


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## lynchknot (Sep 27, 2014)

JL Audio says the "Big Three" can "lead to improved fuel economy or additional horsepower." - https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204374080-The-Big-3-Wiring-Upgrade


and we're in luck, JL sells the wire we need.


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

I would not go as far saying it will economize your gas. I will say that it all boils down to Current. Each vehicle was designed to handle an X amount of current due to size of cables that were initially installed at the factory. So when you start to add extra draw onto the system it will naturally try to fight back. The upgrade of the Big3 is so that you pull the amount of extra current to feed your new system.

I think doing the Big3 can benefit you in the long run.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Despite owning a VW my Hybrid Jetta is pretty stout! 

My TDI was a beast too. My grand prix was much better after I cleaned up the grounds...stuck with factory ground wire though.


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## eldondo (Jul 1, 2014)

yeah i got a vw tdi its got start stop tech,love it went to look at doing a big 3,took one look at the size ground wire about 4gauge said looks good to me.lights never flicker and i run pretty hard. so why do i need the big3?


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