# 2006 MBZ C230 Install - JL Audio



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I recently introduced myself here http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/156966-new-guy-current-status.html, and promised some pics of my install. This is my first build log, and truth be told my first build, so please take it easy on me. But your comments and suggestions are welcome.

In 2009 my Dad and I built this ~ 3 cu ft box out of 1" MDF (2" front panel) and I installed a Tonegen / NHT 1259 in it.









I took it to a local shop to shoehorn it in, hook it up, and replace the stock front stage with a set of Polk DB6501's. 

Though I sized it to fit under the rear deck between the wheel wells, I failed to account for trying to get it IN the trunk. I wound up cutting off a big chuck of the left side, reducing it down to ~ 2 cu ft. It was a little small for the driver, with a huge peak in the 50Hz region. I mounted a couple AutoTek Street Machines amps on it, and mounted a vinyl trim panel over the rear SM1-1500. Can't seem to find a pic. Anyway, it was HUGE. I could put 5 paper grocery bags behind it if everything else was removed. I couldn't get to the spare, and could never take my car on a family road trip.

This past fall, I decided I needed my trunk back. Particularly since I would be driving the girls to school, with their oversize backpacks, every day.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Toward the end of summer, the Polk driver's door Mid went intermittent on me, then stopped altogether. I figured now's as good a time as any to proceed with replacement. Bolstered by the confidence I gained from reading a bunch of DIY installs here, the ease with which people on the MB forums said door panels could be removed, and my own cheapskate tendencies I decided to do the work myself.

First I did the driver's side door. Forgot to start taking pics. Following the lead of Bing at SimplicityinSound on his Mercedes builds, I kept the factory plastic speaker mounts. I put some Stinger Roadkill on the inside of the outer door skin, and covered the inside of the speaker mount with it. I also surrounded the grille area of the door panel with it, and put a bead of cord weatherstrip around the mount to mate with the speaker. I then used all 12 of the C5-650 6.5" mid mounting holes to secure the speaker to the mount. The previous install utilized step-down transformers to convert the factory amp speaker signals to pre-out level for the amps, but really crappy excessively long interconnects. I maintained the step-downs, but put in some 2M Audioquest Golden Gate IC's. Then, as before, I used the factory (14 Gauge!) speaker wire to the crossovers in the doors. I pulled the cheap 18ga wire they had used with the polks, and ran some AQ Rocket33 to the mids and tweets.
I didn't like the idea of double grilles, so I got new sail panels and treated them to a hole saw, and used the flush-mount set to put the C5-650's in the stock location. I tried straight-across and nearly-on-axis, and settled on the middle angle setting.

This is how it looks now:

 

I then did the same to the passenger side:


After that, it was time to hit the trunk. The old box was a TIGHT fit. I had to partially disassemble it to get it out. This is how it looked when that was done:



And here's the trunk, ready and waiting for some JL Audio love:



To Be Continued...


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

This is the spare tire well AFTER I cleaned up the rat's nest the previous installers left in there:


I installed more Roadkill whenever I removed a panel. Not sure if I hit the recommended 25% of surfaces, but it ought to be better than before. This is where the woofer's going to go. Also installed a nut-sert to secure it to the joint of the double-walled panel.


A professed car stereo installer on an MB forum recommended removing the panel to build the sub. We can talk about the potential pitfalls later, but I followed his advice. At the very least, it kept me from dripping resin on my bumper, and probably saved my back (a bit - it's still tweaked from this project.) Here's my first layer of tape.
 

Since the panel was out, I over'taped and didn't use plastic or foil. I managed to not get a drop of resin on the carpet!
Here's the overlapping layer of tape:


And here's the final. I went green because it sticks better and I'm a little into overkill. REALLY wish I had found 2" wide. The 1" took FOREVER.
You'll notice it's dark now. (This was before Daylight Savings Time ended.) With breaks to eat and play with the kids, taping took an entire day.


I put down a layer of turtle wax, the sprayed with silicone lubricant, to make sure I could remove it from the box. Didn't look like much, so no photo.

Here's the first layer of 'glass. I used Kyntex until I want out, finished the outer skin with cloth, and got 2 layers of mat in there. Used black pigment in the resin to make it easier to see gaps, and because I wanted as much help as I could get making it stealth in the trunk.


For the second application of fiberglass, I used mostly mat and did not pigment it. I thought it would stand out better, and knew it would be hidden on both sides by the black stuff. Notice the wooden support to increase rigidity. I just wan't sure rope or straws would really do it. 


Here's the outside of the box. You can really see the lines created by the tape.
 

A thin layer of mat just to secure the stiffeners and cover this spots.


An initial test fit. It was enough to convince me I was headed in the right direction. Argh!


I had made up a face of 3/4" baltic birch plywood, thinking I would stick it on a prefab Schosche MDF box. Well, that box was backordered and still hasn't arrived. So I routed a piece of 1" MDF for an inner ring. Installed 8 threaded inserts into the ring. Adhered the face to the ring: Inner bead of weatherstrip cord, outer bead of silicone adhesive, smoothed on a whole bunch of epoxy in between, screwed together with 4 wood-glued sheetmetal screws, and clamped overnight. It isn't going anywhere...


I couldn't find any blue low-heat plastic, so I made a trim ring of ABS. Not sure it was the best, but it works.
Later had to trip the ply and round the edges for better fit, but this was encouraging.


Random amp shot: I knew it would be a while (2 months!) before I had bass again, but NEEDED some music. Found a couple threaded holes in the trunk floor to secure a board to, and mounted up the stereo amp.


One more plywood support, and making sure everything lines up nice:


Another layer of 'glass, nearly finishing it up:


Carpeted panel's good as new:


What writes on black fiberglass? I used white acrylic paint. Kinda thick, but I knew what I meant:


Still fits!


Trimmed up and looking encouraging:


This just might work after all:


Here's the front panel, contoured to match:


Dowels and supports wood-glued in place:


All fleeced up and ready to go:



Fleece covered in resin:


----------



## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

Looking forward to hearing it this weekend!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Looking forward to the GTG and meeting some fellow DIYers!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Here it is with the 2nd layer of resin over the fleece, and a driver access hole started.


I drilled a mounting hole based on where the nut-sert should have been. I knew it wasn't the brightest idea, but until I honked it up and had to learn, I couldn't figure out how else to position it.


Here's a change: Preliminary layout board for the amp rack.


Back to the enclosure: All glassed up, wire run and secured, hole finished:



Carpeted. It seemed so ready!



Looks like it fits. Wait. Where's the nut-sert? And why is the trunk arm so close to the box?



The next couple weeks were kind of a blur. I had no idea what to do to fix it, but knew if I started over again I'd give up. So I chopped the top off, and brought it to SiS to see what they recommend. Other than build a new box (their first, and probably best, option) JOey suggested that, perhaps, some florist foam could be shaped to the correct outline and covered with 'glass. That and a little tape got me through. I also screwed a home speaker spike into the nut-sert, with the tip covered in wet paint, to mark the new, correct securing bolt location. And got some Ultra Black RTV instead of the caulk and adhesive I tried before to seal the wire and mounting bolt holes. Pull out my hair? Lose my cool? Nah - all better now!



Trunk arm cover even fit. Wires secured. I picked up 1/2 bag of Focal BlackHole Stuff thinking that would be plenty. There was actually a bit of space leftover. I considered adding polyfil, but didn't want it to interfere with the wires or the back of the cone.



I've had this 1st Gen 10W6 since '96 when I had it in a too-small MDF box in the back of a Jetta GLX off a PPI amp. Traded that car in 2006, and put the woofer in a too-large home sub box in the garage. Took it out of there just last year, and NEEDED to put it back to work. Wired the dual 6 Ohm VC's in parallel to run off a JX500/1D.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Here's a view of the amp rack.


JX500/1D and JX360/2, joined by a JL 2-way fused distribution block. The non-fused Stinger block for the ground is on the back side, since I shouldn't need to access it unless I'm taking things apart.
I installed a couple nut-serts in the carpet-trim-snap holes, and mounted to those with 1/4-20 Grade 8 bolts. I'm thinking to remove the back seat to access those two 8mm attachment points on the bottom, but it's really solid so it's not an overpowering need just yet.

Bing and JOey almost died when they saw the partially unshielded round fuse holder the previous shop had left hanging in front of the battery. (Bing even covered up the exposed part for me, though I was just stopping by for advice at the time.) I don't have JOey's fabrication skills, and couldn't find a second hole, but thought this was a pretty good solution. JL again. 100A of fuse on 4ga for what is essentially a 550W system. I REALLY didn't want to run a new power lead from the engine compartment to the trunk. Not overkill, but should be quite adequate.


And, finally, here's the trunk all installed and in stealth mode:



I may need to do something about the carpet on top of the enclosure, but it's purely cosmetic and mounted in the trunk so I'm not in a big hurry to unglue and try again.

All that's left is to find a good spot for the RBC-1 controller:


Right now, I just stow it in the "ash tray". I'd like to mount it in one of the blank panels high on the dash, but am not in a huge rush to take my center console apart. Plus I'll need to pull another foot of wire through the cabin from the slack in the trunk.

Kinda photo-heavy, I know, but most builds are. 

The C5-650's all sealed in the doors had an overpowering, mind-blowing midbass hump. On the android-app RTA, they're down about 6dB at 1000Hz and up around 12dB between 80 and 120. By bringing in the sub around 60Hz and high-passing the mids closer to 125, I've tamed it a bit but they're still light years stronger than the polks were. I don't notice the midrange recession nearly as much now. The bass doesn't localize to the rear. It's solid at 60Hz, still has a peak at 50, strong at 40, and very weak at 31.5 with 25 and 20 just barely audible. So I may need a woofer that plays better in my little (roughly 2/3 cu ft, I estimate) box. But it works for 95% of the music I regularly enjoy.
With the balance shifted right a bit I can get a decent center image in front of me (won't go to center of windshield - if I got any more to the right, it pulls all the way to the passenger door.)
Overall, I'm very happy, though I would love to hear what a good DSP could do to it.

What do you think?


----------



## momax_powers (Oct 26, 2013)

For your setup a minidsp with 2.1 software would be perfect and only cost around $125 

Other than that it looks great....personally i would have gone with the 360/4 bridged to the c5s (and have option to go active in the future.


----------



## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

momax_powers said:


> For your setup a minidsp with 2.1 software would be perfect and only cost around $125
> 
> Other than that it looks great....personally i would have gone with the 360/4 bridged to the c5s (and have option to go active in the future.


I agree here. I had a MiniDSP hooked up to my JX360/4 in our Bronco and found it easy to use and of good quality. 

Great job and way to overcome obstacles!


Beware of autocorrect...


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks Momax and Damon!
I had no intention of going "active" when I started, but I can sure see where you're coming from. The MiniDSP looks awesome. I knew something like that must be out there, but my searches never managed to turn it up. I'll have to check into it when the funds level out again.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I just ran RCA's from the preout of the stereo amp to the input of the sub amp and discovered that the factory amp or H/U has a built in crossover. I don't think a 2.1 miniDSP is going to work for me. I also don't have a laptop and don't know how feasible a desktop PC would be for using REW and miniDSP Advanced. Anyone tried an Audio Control DQ-61 yet?


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Finally successfully finished the build with all current existing components:





Luckily, the previous installed had run the RJ-11 cable into the center console behind the ash tray. Had to pull the head unit and climate controls to snake the wire up to the panel, but it's SO nice finally having the bass knob securely installed.

Now I just need to figure out which DSP/Eq to go with, and do some fine tuning. With the balance controls I can get the image off the door and mostly in front of me, but it never goes center and I need to work on the low bass / mid-bass blend. I guess I'll need to get some 3- or 4-output distribution blocks on order...


----------



## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> I just ran RCA's from the preout of the stereo amp to the input of the sub amp and discovered that the factory amp or H/U has a built in crossover. I don't think a 2.1 miniDSP is going to work for me. I also don't have a laptop and don't know how feasible a desktop PC would be for using REW and miniDSP Advanced. Anyone tried an Audio Control DQ-61 yet?



You might check out the PPI DEQ8/Soundstream Syntesis units. From what I have read they are built by MiniDSP for those companies AND they are MAC compatible. A little more expensive than a MiniDSP, but it would be something you could expand with if that big ever hit you. 


Beware of autocorrect...


----------



## PSYKO_Inc (Dec 11, 2006)

Nice install! I just picked up an 06 C280 for my wife to replace her totalled Vue, now I just need to convince her that the stock setup isn't "good enough" :blush: Also bought the Vue back from insurance that I plan on rebuilding and using as a daily driver so I'll be working on a sound system for that car pretty soon as well...


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Thank you.
Is stock ever good enough?

Distribution blocks arrived, and Santa was pretty good to me, so I'll probably get DSP next week - but I'm still trying to decide which one will be best for my situation. Each time I read about one, I think "that's the one" - but every processor I've used in the past has kind of veiled the sound a bit - and I want to avoid that. Plus, I don't have a laptop for tuning (though I know where to find a shop that does.)

DQ-61? DEQ-8? BitTen? 4to6? Decisions, decisions.


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Hi Tom! Not sure I mentioned it somewhere else but it was great meeting you at the SIS GTG. 

As far as processors go, I recommend getting one with 8 output channels to future-proof your install. They aren't much pricier and it sucks having to buy something twice. I'm really enjoying my 3sixty.3 but it requires a laptop. The alpine h800 with rux doesn't but you'll need somewhere to mount the controller. Or you could just go with an 80prs or p99rs


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks for all the great DSP suggestions!

I'm not a very good listener. Plus, I don't have a laptop to program/tweak it myself. And I'm trying to keep it reasonably affordable. But, mostly, I don't want to be tempted to take this install to the next level (3 ways; going active; amping the rear fill, etc.) I was merely trying to replace a blown speaker and bring back my trunk space, but after listening to a few systems I decided I must try a little EQ and T/A. With no experience in such things, and generally trying to avoid processing as much as possible, I was trying to find one that would easily integrate with my OEM H/U and give me some experience in adjusting and figuring out what I like, without needing to spend hours and hours figuring out how it works.

So, I'm going to be the forum guinea pig - I picked up an AC DQ-61. I'm hoping to find the time to install it this weekend. I'll definitely keep you guys posted. And if, for some reason, I find it inadequate for my needs, well, I know where to look.


----------



## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> Thanks for all the great DSP suggestions!
> 
> I'm not a very good listener. Plus, I don't have a laptop to program/tweak it myself. And I'm trying to keep it reasonably affordable. But, mostly, I don't want to be tempted to take this install to the next level (3 ways; going active; amping the rear fill, etc.) I was merely trying to replace a blown speaker and bring back my trunk space, but after listening to a few systems I decided I must try a little EQ and T/A. With no experience in such things, and generally trying to avoid processing as much as possible, I was trying to find one that would easily integrate with my OEM H/U and give me some experience in adjusting and figuring out what I like, without needing to spend hours and hours figuring out how it works.
> 
> So, I'm going to be the forum guinea pig - I picked up an AC DQ-61. I'm hoping to find the time to install it this weekend. I'll definitely keep you guys posted. And if, for some reason, I find it inadequate for my needs, well, I know where to look.


I look forward to hearing how the new AudioControl unit works for you.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

DRTHJTA said:


> I look forward to hearing how the new AudioControl unit works for you.


Me too!

AudioControl DQ-61 Fun facts - not listed on the website:
iPhone APP is not yet developed
T/A steps are ~ 1/3ms
maximum wire size for removable molex-type connectors is 12AWG
ACR-3 remote wire is listed as "RJ-14" - it's RJ11 6P4C - same as a standard phone to wall outlet cable.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Lest you think I've been slacking, here is the amp rack reshuffled to fit the DQ-61:


And here it is, wired up with all the captive cables and lines:


I'm hoping to install and set the front left delay on Sunday, but it's not clear to me which speaker wire is which (L/R +/- coming from the factory HK amp) so it may take a bit of doing to figure it out.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

It's in!

Doesn't look much different from the above - just added power, ground, remote and speaker wires.
(Just for future reference, out of the OEM HK AMP, it looks like Orange is Front Right, Green is Front Left, and Purple is Low Frequency. Since the factory amp ground is brown, I've assumed the brown-stripe wires are negative leads.)

I haven't even optimized the gains yet, and have not tried the T/A.
First, very early, impressions: 
The molex-type plugs that AC chose are not as useful as they could be. Better than straight terminals of that size would be for sure. But they're kinda small, and overall feel a little flexy.

Sound quality seems to be top notch. Clearer and more detailed than with the previous HL250 high/low converters.

Dead silent. I have unshielded signal cables throughout, and used distribution blocks for power, ground and remote to the amps and DSP. There is absolutely no hum, buzz or whine - which was my biggest fear.

Overall, I can't wait to get tuning and am very happy with the outcome thus far.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I promise another pic in a day or two.

Spent ~ an hour on initial tune. Tried to maintain general character of the C5 setup, but tone down the excessive midbass and bring up the lower presence region. I used Sterophile Test CD1 and several Android apps - primarily FrequenSee. It's not flat, but is so much more natural-sounding than ever before. Advantage: DQ-61.

Moving the front stage from above my left knee to between my (empty???) center-channel grille and rear-view mirror (left-channel time delay) was about the easiest thing in the world. Just follow the directions: Turn all the way right until it doesn't mute or tick and the image is far left. Then 4 clicks left until John, Paul, George and Ringo are in the middle of my windshield. Awesome!

High Female vocals (Summertime, from the same test CD) seem to center more in front of me than in the middle. Probably because my tweeters aren't quite as far from my ears as my mids are. But with such broad steps (1/3msec) I think 1 more click will overdo it. May try later - may just be happy. The final image isn't as stable, focused or small as some full-active or full-range tune's I've heard where they've spent hours fine-tuning to T/A to the 1/4 inch and channel balance in 31 1/3-octave bands. (2 of those sounded too small and a little thin, to me, anyway.) But it's darn fine and makes me smile. Advantage: DQ61.

Adjusting the front delay to the bass was just as easy, but not nearly as profound. With my low crossover settings, it was already pretty upfront. Still is, but it doesn't sound quite as coherent as it could. I'll spend a little more time tweaking it, but my ideal delay (based on distance) is in a half-step, so finer adjustment would be nice. Still, it's an improvement. Advantage: Too close to call.

After all that, I decided not to mount the controller in the cabin. I already have a bass control knob, and delay is a set-it-and-forget-it activity. So I mounted the controller on the amp rack, put it all back together, and mounted the rack. Then I went to re-install the primary 100A fuse, and one of the screws was too loose - it flew off, into a tiny crevice under the battery in the engine compartment. So no sound this morning. I tried to fish it out with a magnet - but the darn thing's aluminum! Tried some blue-stik on a screwdriver. Lost the sticky! I need to either pull the battery, or get a "claw". Heading to the hardware store after work... Advantage: Gremlins.

Update to follow... In the meantime, other suggestions are welcome.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

In digging for the lost screw, I buried it farther beneath the battery tray. So I improvised with an 8mm hex-head screw and a hacksaw. (No pic of that.)
Sound is back! And how sweet it is.

Here's the amp rack as finally laid out and installed:


Here it is all covered up:

(Didn't change much)

And finally the trunk with the tool bag strapped in:


I can make a Costco run, and listen to awesome well-tuned tunes at the same time!
Hooray!


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Very nice! I hope to hear it some day.

Btw, If you ever need a 5&1/4" comp set you know who to ask


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Golden Ear said:


> Very nice! I hope to hear it some day.
> 
> Btw, If you ever need a 5&1/4" comp set you know who to ask


Thank you! Perhaps in March...

HaHa! I gave my Arc Kar 5&1/4's to my nephew for Christmas. He's so excited. His dad's pretty handy with a wire, so hopefully I won't have to install them on my next trip to Redding.


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> Thank you! Perhaps in March...
> 
> HaHa! I gave my Arc Kar 5&1/4's to my nephew for Christmas. He's so excited. His dad's pretty handy with a wire, so hopefully I won't have to install them on my next trip to Redding.


Lol! I gave a set to one of my employees for Christmas. Still have 2 sitting in my garage:laugh:


----------



## cnut334 (Oct 17, 2009)

Very good work! The trunk still looks stock.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

cnut334 said:


> Very good work! The trunk still looks stock.


Thanks!
After the giant, ugly box I had in there for 4 years - that was the plan.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

As I gain familiarity with the (massively!) improved staging, imaging, articulation and detail afforded by the EQ, T/A and improved signal chain to the main front stage, I am noticing irregularities in the bass: it's a little ponderous, and midbass impact seems to have suffered compared to the previous instal.
I know I can do some further tweaking of the front/sub T/A.
I should get a decent RTA - or put REW on my desktop and get a REALLY long extension cord for my microphone. But I still need to determine the type of curve that will sound best to me in my car.

I lowered the HP cutoff to the mids, and it brought the sub stage forward, but it mainly served to make the door panels buzz from 60-100Hz.

Rethinking the installation, I recall that my sub speaker wires are kinda stiff and only like to go one way, but when I marked them at removal they were tagged the other way. I installed them the "easy" way, but per my written notation polarity is reversed. So I'm going to flatten the sub EQ, remove the front delay, swap the wires, and try bass integration again. The great part is that, with the components I currently have, I CAN! 
Anyway, I know it's no fault of the components and the most important part of any instal is the installation and integration - so I'm off to do some tweaking until it ALL comes together.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Wow. Just Wow.

I flipped the speaker wires into the sub amp. Got my impact back in a big way.
Also did some more reading here on bass integration. Since I have only 1 sub and no way to move it around I upped the sub X-over to LP ~ 140Hz/12dB, and set the mids to HP ~ 130Hz/12dB. Way smoothed the midbass hump. 

Time-aligning front to sub is still not as straightforward as left to right. 125Hz and 100Hz still sounded upfront with no T/A. 80 was evenly split - but it was smooth and solid from the rear, while oscillating pretty heavily from the front. Tuned until it smoothed out and the rear no longer sounded like a separate signal. 4 clicks on the DQ-61. Distance-wise it should be more, but 5 and up moved the stage toward the rear of the car and started to lose impact and presence - so 4 it is.

Did a little more cell-phone RTA work. 50 and 63Hz were quite peaky - I brought them down to about +3dB (compared to 40, 80, 200 and 1000.) There's a dip a little higher up, but it wavers from ~ 100Hz to between 125 and 150. I nudged 175 and 125 up a notch from where they had been, but don't want to go too far as that's the area I was trying to tame to begin with on the C5 set. Now, on tracks that bounce a beat between 60 and 100Hz I can hear the difference in level. For the most part, however, bass is smooth, even, tuneful and fairly tight - and transitions cleanly to mid-bass. Stays mostly upfront, with the occasional deviation toward the back of the door area. Test tones, Diana Krall, Johnny Boyd, Robert Lucas, Bob Marley and Kanye West all sound neutral and natural. Things don't get out of hand until Kanye hit 100dB average levels - Love Lockdown will cause a door shakedown about the time it sounds like it wants to blow the stock rear-door speakers. Otherwise, it's rattle-free and quite divine. I did note that Norah Jones' Come Away with Me caused me to reach for the bass level knob - it was a bit too much for her voice. On BadCo, Paul Rodgers still sounds like he was recorded in a can but it no longer drags the entire range into the midbass like it did before.

The DQ-61 has done all I hoped and more than I expected. Now that it sounds great on every track and compels me to mine my software for stuff I haven't heard in a while, I'm going to try to keep it for at least a week, just listening, and see if I feel the same or if some niggling faults, or the slight bass frequency deviation, cause me to rethink the tune.

For tonight - very, very pleased.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Over time, the midbass robustness began to make its presence known again. So back to the trunk. I nudged 500Hz, 250Hz, 175Hz and 125Hz down just a hair each.
It doesn't look quite as good on the cell-phone RTA, but it sure sounds better to my ears - which is much more important. 
I've had it this way, and other than playing with the RBC-1 based on track, passenger load, and mood I haven't felt a need to fiddle with it. And my wife commented yesterday that it sounds really good. So I think I'm pretty darn close to ideal for my current set-up. Again, I'm very happy with my choices and installation, and recommend the DQ-61 to anyone trying to integrate a factory HU or Amp into a nice aftermarket system with a single processor.


----------



## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Subscribed! I'm running the C5-650 set as well, and couldn't be happier. Very nice build you have!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

chithead said:


> Subscribed! I'm running the C5-650 set as well, and couldn't be happier. Very nice build you have!


Thank you!

I was looking and looking for a JL product that would incorporate factory HU integration, EQ, and some phase/time alignment but couldn't find anything so I went with the AudioControl. 

I know JL is not full DIY, nor the be-all/end-all of components out there- but they offer a fairly full product range, solid choices in various price ranges, and what I consider good value in both sound quality and product quality vs price across the board. And they tend to include all the tidbits you'll need for a standard installation. Althought I didn't always use them, they supplied screws, sealant, high-lelvel-input wires, and a bunch of other stuff that other companies expect you to find on your own. Very cool. Made the instal that much easier.


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Sadly it looks like all of the photos have disappeared. :-(


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Coppertone said:


> Sadly it looks like all of the photos have disappeared. :-(


I know. I was kinda freaking out until I saw that it's because I had so many photos viewed so often in a month that PhotoBucket wants me to upgrade. 
They should reappear by the 23rd.
If it happens again, well, I'll see what said upgrade consists of.


----------



## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> Over time, the midbass robustness began to make its presence known again. So back to the trunk. I nudged 500Hz, 250Hz, 175Hz and 125Hz down just a hair each.
> It doesn't look quite as good on the cell-phone RTA, but it sure sounds better to my ears - which is much more important.
> I've had it this way, and other than playing with the RBC-1 based on track, passenger load, and mood I haven't felt a need to fiddle with it. And my wife commented yesterday that it sounds really good. So I think I'm pretty darn close to ideal for my current set-up. Again, I'm very happy with my choices and installation, and recommend the DQ-61 to anyone trying to integrate a factory HU or Amp into a nice aftermarket system with a single processor.


It's always a good feeling when you are happy with the components you pick out! Congrats!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

DRTHJTA said:


> It's always a good feeling when you are happy with the components you pick out! Congrats!


It sure is. Thanks Damon!
Looking forward to impressions of the Dayton gear in your wagon...

Hey, do you know a decent place to eat in/near terminal 5 at LAX? I have about a 45 minute layover tonight, right at dinnertime.


----------



## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> It sure is. Thanks Damon!
> Looking forward to impressions of the Dayton gear in your wagon...
> 
> Hey, do you know a decent place to eat in/near terminal 5 at LAX? I have about a 45 minute layover tonight, right at dinnertime.


Unfortunately we spend most of out time in and out of there in Terminals 1, 3, and 4... but, I found this link that might be helpful.

Terminal 5


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

DRTHJTA said:


> Unfortunately we spend most of out time in and out of there in Terminals 1, 3, and 4... but, I found this link that might be helpful.
> 
> Terminal 5


You're awesome - thanks!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Pics are back up!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

It's in, and I'm (beyond) happy with the sound.
However, some of the power, ground and remote leads from the distribution blocks to the devices are properly sized but cheap, stiff THHN wires. The biggest concern I had was that they are not very flexible - but I managed to make it work. But they're also not mobile-specific and consist of relatively few strands per conductor of untreated copper wire. As you can see, in post#23, I ran the wires from each block, behind the amp rack, then back through to the component. 

I picked up a full set of Stinger wires to more than replace all the THHN. (They were quite reasonably priced, so leaving them unused or reselling them would not cause a financial burden.) Now I'm trying to decide if it's worth replacing. Rewiring the same way will mean removing the stereo amp, and either pulling the rack from the car or taking out the back seat. Either of which is several hours of labor, and leaves the potential for me to break something or hook it back up incorrectly. It also doesn't affect the interconnects or speaker wires, so it isn't likely to improve the sound quality or anything. I've never seen moisture in the trunk, so while it'll probably improve longevity it isn't a must-do from a reliability standpoint right now.

I have 3 options:
1) Leave it as-is.
2) Pull it out and do it all over again with the new wire.
3) Just remove and reinstall the 1 amp, and route the wires around the components on the front if the amp rack, leaving all the perfectly sized and placed holes unused. (Probably take me 2-3 hours, but I won't need to pull the whole thing out.)

If it were your car - what would you do?


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I've got a new pair of mobile-approved interconnects coming to me in a couple weeks. When I replace the unshielded Kimber PBJ with them, I'll probably rewire the above-mentioned power, ground and remote leads. I'm thinking, for future accessibility, to run with option 3.

In the meantime, I don't love having black tweeters in my gray sailpanels. I know I'll never match the paint if I try to spray the tweets - plus I can't see a way to remove the C5-075ct grilles. So, instead, I got some black sail panels - "Front Tweeter Cover"s in MBZ parlance.

I drilled the holes as far up and forward as I could, within the factory tweeter area.
I have a hole saw that's a perfect fit for the cups, but since they're both so thin they can spin around a bit once fully installed. Plus, under certain conditions, I could see through the unused factory grille through-holes. So, in addition to the spring clip, I secured the cups with some black Sugru.







I did my best to aim them on-axis - one click up and back on the passenger side; 2 clicks on the driver. Not sure my aural memory is 100% accurate, but my initial (30 second) listen made the vocals appear higher and better centered.





Since I was going stealth mode on the tweets, I didn't really want the shiny silver JL logo. I sanded it down, and touched it up with acrylic paint. The I could see the paint. So I sprayed it with some Krylon. But the matte stood out against the panel. So I sprayed it with varnish. Put it came out in dots instead of mist. If it doesn't dry to a more uniform sheen, I'll find some brush-on varnish or clear coat and try to touch it up once more.

From a distance, they look pretty stock. The black sails stand out a bit against the otherwise gray door panels, but from in the car, in my opinion, they look like they belong since they're just in the triangle behind the outside mirrors. With the black steering wheel and center console, I think they blend quite nicely with the doors closed.
Do you agree?



 

If I change my mind, well, Sugru isn't THAT hard to remove. And I still have the gray panels with tweeter holes already cut...


----------



## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Very nice work!


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

I agree, they do blend nicely!

Option 3 sounds good. I've changed amps on my rack a couple times and ended up covering all the newly unused holes with a piece of carbon fiber vinyl. I'm thrilled with how it came out.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks guys!

GE - I have thought many times of covering the amp rack in vinyl - but my last 2 vinyl experiments did not turn out well. At all. I've learned a few things since then, but am still not confident in my ability to make it decent. I had enough trouble carpeting the amp cover and sub...


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> GE - I have thought many times of covering the amp rack in vinyl - but my last 2 vinyl experiments did not turn out well. At all. I've learned a few things since then, but am still not confident in my ability to make it decent. I had enough trouble carpeting the amp cover and sub...


I hear ya. Fortunately my amp rack is just a flat piece of mdf so it was really easy. Otherwise I would have probably hacked it up:laugh:


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Just for fun, let's see how close I can get to this:

Greens are Remote; Black are Ground; Blue are Power (don't touch 4ga on to stereo amp for now,) Red are RCA's.


I do't expect the RCA's to arrive for a couple weeks. Maybe I'll have a couple hours to myself the middle of February.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I found the nut!

Just for grins, I popped the hood this afternoon, and I saw it glinting under some wires and a fluid line in front of the battery. When I got home, I could just see the edge peeking out from under the line. Between 2 screwdrivers, a coat hanger, and a claw I was able to extract it. So happy. (I'm easily amused.) But the protective cover fits properly again, and I didn't have to pull out the battery tray, so that's a nice bonus.


----------



## zyvin (Nov 13, 2013)

Great info on the DQ 61, thanks for being the guinea pig. I think I am going to give it a shot, and I'm also running C 5's.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

zyvin said:


> Great info on the DQ 61, thanks for being the guinea pig. I think I am going to give it a shot, and I'm also running C 5's.


Happy to be of service!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I did a partial rewire yesterday. Replaced the 8ga power lead to the 500/1D with 4ga Stinger HPM. Then, the important part, I replaced the THHN ground wires to both amps with Stinger Pro.
I can't say it sounds any different, but my peace of mind has gone up.
That THHN stuff is just terrible to work with. I expected the Stinger would be easier to route - which it is, by far. I never expected how much easier it would be to strip, and to feed into the terminals. Very nice wire. I almost didn't hate being hunched over in the trunk for an hour...

I'll do an updated pic when my new interconnects arrive and get routed. I'll probably do the 3 remote leads as well as power and ground to the processor then - but I don't feel a big rush since I'll just be replacing off-the-shelf stranded "primary" wire with Stinger's off-the-shelf stranded primary wire - but I can feel the Stinger is a bit more flexible, and it appears to have a more resilient jacket. So that's nice.

I also went over the "splotchy" tweeter trim rings with some clear varnish from a can. At first I wasn't that impressed, but now that it's cured for a few days the look is much improved.

WRT DIY autosound - does anyone ever say "I'm happy now - I am done!" ???


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Rewired remote leads as well as power and ground to processor. Cleaned it up a bit. Kept the amp power and ground leads above-board, but managed to route Processor power and a couple remotes behind. (Had them all out front for a while, and it just looked like a kludged, tangled mess.)





The processor-to-amp interconnects I received were a bit long for both locations. In addition, the awesome high-quality Neutrik connectors are too big for the minuscule amount of space I left between the processor and amps. So I'm going to build my own. I'll do a quick cable build log and final pics when cable components arrive. For now I'm going to try to document, for myself, the cable build plan so I know what to do when they come in. They'll be routed above-board for accessibility and long life, and tacked down for cleanliness and dependability.

Components: .031 63/37 "no-clean" solder because I know I won't be able to flux the connectors. Flux pen for wires and solder tip. 8ft Mogami 2534. 10 ft TechFlex. 4/ea 14mm cable pants. Plenty of heat shrink and electrical tape. 4/ea Switchcraft 3502RAAU and RABAU right-angle connectors. Will see how the cable pants work out - may be a tight fit.

Sub: 21" long pair. 3 conductors to pin, other conductor and shield to sleeve. Black RCA heads on one side; nickel on the other. Black bodies for left channel; silver for right. Highest possible signal transfer; very short run & low frequency only - noise shouldn't be an issue.

Front: 27" long pair. "Source" side: 2 conductors to pin, 2 conductors and shield to sleeve. Black heads. Black body for left; silver for right. "Amp" side: 2 conductors to pin, 2 to sleeve; shield cut, insulated and taped. Silver heads; black body for left channel; silver for right. Minimize potential interference.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Got all the pieces in:



Duh. Only needed 2 runs of TechFlex, not 4. And the 14mm cable pants won't accept my 6mm wires through the legs. So will go without. The shield is so generous I think it contains more wire than all 4 conductors combined. So for the LF cables I followed WestCo's lead and used all 4 for pin and the shield for ring. 

I have no great skill for soldering, but I managed to tin all the leads with silver. (A little heavy-handed.)


No great skill for photography, either, I'm afraid.

Anyway, I managed to get the subwoofer cable built up. Only 1 burned finger.
One of the black RCA bodies had a too-small cable hole. .25" bit in the drill press took care of that. Same one (by coincidence) had a short when first installed. 3 tries, a bit of snipping, and judicious use of electrical tape cleared it up.



Outcome is vanishingly low impedance in the assembly:



Plugged it in and have no noise - so that's nice. I'll probably still do the shield-1-side method on the HF assembly this weekend.
In the meantime, as soon as I plugged it in, the radio was playing Thrift Shop - so I had to annoy the neighbors. Wow. (Not that is sounded any different.) I need to do a little more work on Bass/midbass integration - but those low lows really come through.
Anyone have a decent mic/RTA setup they want to help me with for a couple hours one day?


----------



## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> Got all the pieces in:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice work on the RCAs! I like the yellow!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks Damon!

I ended up snipping the "source" ends off that Sub cable - the right-angle connector just wouldn't fit right on the DQ-61. I dug around and found an old pair of Monster's that I cut ends off of, then proceeded to match that build with the HF cable. Also, doing so allowed me to put a little tape and heat-shrink down.

Here's the re-build of the sub cable:


Had lots of fun re-soldering and wrapping to eliminate shorts. Those tiny Monster Cable terminals made me feel like I was swimming when I got back to the Switchcraft right-angles. In the meantime, here's the completed revised LF cable:

Shorts sorted out and impedance minimized.


Here's soldering up the HF run. I tinned with silver, but soldered with 37/63 for simplicity.


No shorts in this one, and minimal impedance:


Completed HF cable assembly. Look familar? It's just a couple inches longer than the LF one.


In and wired up:


It's time for your close-up:






 

All buttoned up and hidden from view:



(Still need to do some bass integration, but the RBC in the dash goes a LONG way toward getting it there from album to album.)

I hope you like it. I know I do! Not going to win any shows, but at least I can be fairly proud of it when I show it to friends - or take the cover off to work/adjust/tune.
Lots of tips and pointers from this awesome community, but 100% DIY. And it sounds fantastic!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Once again, I thought I was done building this out - and I thought wrong.



I don't think they're supposed to do that...

But it is 18 years old and been used in 3 systems, so I guess it has every right.
So out comes the 10W6, and now I have a use for the Audiomobile GTS 2110 I won at the SiS GtG in December.
The bezel on the new one is kinda huge, so the 2 hours of dremel and prep work I did tonight wasn't quite enough.
I did learn that the spring terminals on the Audiomobile have a death-grip on my 4-conductor speaker wire, hold on to a pin pretty well, and let a banana plug slip out pretty easily. So I'll be going bare wire. It's single voice coil, so hookup should be quite a bit less convoluted than the old JL.
Pics and write-up to follow.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Well,
I spent a couple hours Sunday night grinding away at the box with the Dremel, but the hole still wasn't large enough to accept the GTS 2110. I stuffed it in anyway, with the bezel rather crooked. Actually sounded pretty good - powerful, punchy, and fairly smooth with the EQ adjusted for the JL - but slightly "slow" and I felt something wasn't sealing completely. Pulled it out, ground away for another couple hours last night. Still not big enough! That thing is huge! Should've taken Bing's advice and picked up a palm router but I'm kinda stubborn and don't want to buy something new when "what I have will work." Plus, my rabbet bit is too small, so I'd need to figure out what size I need.
Anyway, I test-fit it face-first and felt like it would work. But when I went to install it in the box the bezel still didn't want to go (it's beveled on the front, but flat on the rear.) So, I taped of the internal speaker wires, installed bananas on a new set to run externally, and mounted it face-first on the box. Tightened flush and seems to sound fine. Should be happier with all the available enclosure space. But the EQ was way off. 200, 125, 100 and 50Hz were all where they belong, but 160 got a small (relative) boost, while 80 and 40 fell down and 60 was off the map - down like 15dB. So I readjusted the EQ and it seems fine, but I haven't given it much of a listen. Will update tonight after some more seat time and a couple fresh pics.

The driver seems robust, and I really like the spring terminals. I'm sure with better test gear and judicious EQ I can get the SQ where I want it. But I can't figure out the rationale for a frame face so large that I can't mount a grille over it or install it into a hole cut for a regular 10" driver.

Lest anyone go drawing conclusions, I actually had 80 and 60 turned down before. Now they're very close to flat. So I think I'm getting a smoother overall response from the woofer with it outside the enclosure than I did with it in. And 40Hz is a strong cabin mode in my vehicle, so response there is kind of all over the place anyway. And even when it's down 3-6dB in comparison to 50, it sounds, and FEELS, solid powerful.


----------



## strong*I*bumpin (Oct 3, 2005)

Maybe I missed but I'll ask anyway,how are you liking the AC unit?...Thinking of picking up the LCQ 1 for my setup.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

strong*I*bumpin said:


> Maybe I missed but I'll ask anyway,how are you liking the AC unit?...Thinking of picking up the LCQ 1 for my setup.


I thought I had bored people to death about it!
I like it. A Lot.
It's quiet, easy to hook up, a cinch to adjust, and requires no computer. The one potential issue I haven't worked out yet is I seemed to have more dynamic range before I put it in, but with individual channel sensitivity and gain, and separate gains on the amps, I haven't taken the time to figure out how best to optimize that parameter. But it's darn good as it stands.
The EQ is a cinch, and at least for my speakers, has just enough bands to smooth things out without having so many that I get lost and start honking stuff up.
Though the T/A may seem very coarse in comparison to the more expensive computer-controlled units, in practice it is very easy to set up and precise enough to make a vast improvement in soundstage width and depth, image specivity, front stage localization, timing, and phase coherence.
I stand by me previous summary - if you have high-level inputs and a passive front stage, there is absolutely no reason not go with the AudioControl DQ-61.


----------



## strong*I*bumpin (Oct 3, 2005)

tjswarbrick said:


> I thought I had bored people to death about it!
> I like it. A Lot.
> It's quiet, easy to hook up, a cinch to adjust, and requires no computer. The one potential issue I haven't worked out yet is I seemed to have more dynamic range before I put it in, but with individual channel sensitivity and gain, and separate gains on the amps, I haven't taken the time to figure out how best to optimize that parameter. But it's darn good as it stands.
> The EQ is a cinch, and at least for my speakers, has just enough bands to smooth things out without having so many that I get lost and start honking stuff up.
> ...


Kool thanks for your input.When the weather gets nicer I will give the LCQ 1 a try.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Here's the GTS 2110:









Sounds good, and can easily shake the whole car, but I need to do some more work integrating the bass to the mids. Again.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Milled the hole a little larger and managed to flip the woofer around:



Ran REW and got this:



Played with crossover and EQ settings and came up with this:


Sounds good. I think I still need to work on woofer to mid transition, but it's mostly setting just the level without messing up the frequency response.

As far as the GTS2110 goes, it is strong and powerful and plays low. It just doesn't sound as "fast" or "articulate" as I might hope - but some of that likely gets laid at the feet of the C5's, as well.

I have a dream of one day becoming skilled and re-carpeting the box. But for now, I don't know if I'm that skilled, and I can't remove it from the car (Riv-nut seems to be spinning in its hole.) So it's likely to stay this way for a while.


----------



## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

With unbacked carpet you could easily lay it on the face first then stretch it around the sides. Dont be scared, its the main reason i love carpet.


----------



## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

tjswarbrick said:


> Here's the GTS 2110:


I like your go bag, buddy has the same one.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

capea4 said:


> I like your go bag, buddy has the same one.


Thanks!
It's a great bag. Lots of useful compartments - and it appears really well built.
I just wish I got it in black.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Still wasn't happy with sub/mid bass integration.
C-Weighting with test-tones last night, the C5-650's have a dip from 200Hz to 125, then raise up slightly at 100, a little more at 80, and are 6 to 10 dB stronger from 40-63 than they are at 100. This is with the sub amp disconnected. There is no output below 40 on the fronts, but where they do put out sound in the "bass" region - it has no definition, and just sounds like distortion to me. Somewhat impressive on first listen with no sub, but no wonder I can't get decent articulation out of these things.

Spun the JL amp crossover points all over the place, and they didn't seem to make much difference.

Ran just the fronts with crossover off, HP crossover at 50Hz, and HP crossover at 200Hz.
Took some measurements with REW.

Off, there was some peakiness between 60 and 40Hz, and a dropoff below 40.
HP at 200, looked the same to 40, with a sharper dropoff below 40.
HP at 50, looked identical to to HP at 200.

Then I tried the bass amp. Can't defeat the X-Over on that one, but setting it at 150, 100, 50 or 200 made no quantifiable difference in the output.
So it looks like the on-board crossovers are kind of a joke and I need to get an outboard. Maybe with adjustable phase, filter type/roll-off, and set point. Argh. Where am I going to put that?

I did find some old Harrison F-Mod's I had lying around. 1 pair supposed to be 100Hz HP; the other 70Hz HP.
I tried all 4 plugged into the "loopback" cable on my soundcard. I'm sure the input and output impedance are different there than in my autosound system, but they all looked like a very shallow 5,000Hz HP filter on that!
I took the two with the closest cuves (1 of the 100's and one of the 70's, oddly enough) and plugged them in, inline with the RCA's to the front amp. It seems to have cleaned up the midbass considerably. But they max out ~ 100dB around 60Hz on music, and something seems slightly amuck in the overall response.
Just wierd.

I guess I'll start looking for an AudioControl Crossover, and see if I can tune it out a bit better.


----------



## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> I guess I'll start looking for an AudioControl Crossover, and see if I can tune it out a bit better.


Such a slippery slope this hobby can be!!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

You got that right!

I knew the C5-650's had too much low-frequency output for a door speaker when I first heard 'em - after I had already ordered some online.
I had no idea it would be so much "fun" to try to tame 'em... But figured that worse-comes-to-worse I could stagger the crossover points so the 6.5's are winding down before the sub comes in full-force.
Really bummed that the JL amp on-board crossovers aren't just crappy, but are essentially non-functional.
Still, it sounds pretty good for a car system - but oftentimes "better" is the enemy of "best." And it's so close that great seems achievable with "just one more thing...!"


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm a little nuts.

Not sure where I'm going to mount it.
2XS or KX2 would require 2 crossovers in order to LP the sub and HP the component set, and maintain EQ and T/A from the DQ-61.
So, for 1/3 or 2/5ths the price (respectively), I just ordered a Clarion MCD360 3-way Crossover. Won't need yet another bass control remote. I have an extra tap on each of my Power, Ground and Remote distribution blocks - and plenty of 16-ga hookup wire - so at least that won't be a problem.

Maybe I'll just affix a small block of wood behind the carpet on the driver's side ahead of the sub and factory fuse box - so my go-bag will hide it most of the time. Or, possibly, just mount it in the spare tire well to the styrofoam organizer. Hmm. Need to think about that.

I sure hope this works...

Next time I'll just have Bing and JOey do it up right in the first place!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Just noticed that the AudioControl, Clarion and several sets of RCA interconnects cost about as much as a JBL MS-8.
Is that the way I should have gone in the first place?
Would it be worth cancelling the MCD360 order, trying to sell a used DQ-61, and going that route now???


----------



## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> Just noticed that the AudioControl, Clarion and several sets of RCA interconnects cost about as much as a JBL MS-8.
> Is that the way I should have gone in the first place?
> Would it be worth cancelling the MCD360 order, trying to sell a used DQ-61, and going that route now???


When I started my build, I had the intention of using an AC EQL and passive crossovers... Once I got into trying to price good components for the passives, I decided that I should just save the hassle and go DSP... A little bit different, but I'm sure glad I went that route. Space saver and I have all the functionality I could ever need in my setup. Also, it's one less thing in the chain that could cause problems.... Just my 2¢


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

If the answer is yes let me know cuz I'll be posting an ms-8 for sale real soon


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Almost jumped. I'm gonna kick myself either way.

Crossover is fairly small and I can hide it. I have all the cabling I'll need. But then I've got to re-tune everything again. And what if it still doesn't produce the sound I think it's capable of?

MS-8 is too big for the amp rack, and I don't know where I'd mount it. And I'd need to mount the controller. Which means pulling up the carpet, and doing who-knows-what to the dash. And with all those built-in channels I'd certainly go fully active - which means new speaker wire to the tweeters. Which means taking the door panels off again (which would give me a chance to deaden them a bit better and open up the midrange grille a hair), and also the back seat. So I'd probably need to farm it out. Which will cost more, and won't be all DIY. But then they could pretty up my sub enclosure, too.
Argh.

For now, I'm going to keep my order for the crossover.

In a month, after I tune it, I'll see how badly I wish I'd bought the DSP unit instead... Does yours include the headphone/mic and all instructions and ancillary components?


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

I've got it all and it's in good shape. Still have the box and all. I'll PM you when I list it...it won't be for a few weeks.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Argh.
I seem to have blown my mids. They still sound okay, but with system volume approaching 80dB (not terribly loud) bass notes in the 60-80Hz range sound like I'm maxing out the drivers.
Rears and sub are still clean and fine.
I can't find record of where/when I bought the darn things last summer.

Can anyone recommend a 6.5" midrange which will:
Blend well with a single 10;
Work (properly, with minimal breakup ro beaming) up to 5kHz to blend with the JL C5-075t tweets that fit so nicely in the sail panels;
Blow away the C5-650 woofers in Sound Quality: touch, detail, refinement, smoothness, no horrendous mid-bass blump;
Cost less than $150/pair???

Did I mention - Argh!

Actually, I think I'll start a new thread - hopefully that's enough info to elicit some actual responses.


----------



## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> Argh.
> I seem to have blown my mids. They still sound okay, but with system volume approaching 80dB (not terribly loud) bass notes in the 60-80Hz range sound like I'm maxing out the drivers.
> Rears and sub are still clean and fine.
> I can't find record of where/when I bought the darn things last summer.
> ...


Bummer!

I would seriously consider Silver Flute 6.5". They have a pretty flat response and are roughly the same sensitivity as your tweets... I've got a pair of the 5.5" that I use at home (I know, different environment) and they shine! The reason I bought them was based on recommendations on here in the first place. I'm sure there are plenty of people that are using these in their vehicles. 

Good luck on your search!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

DRTHJTA said:


> Bummer!
> 
> I would seriously consider Silver Flute 6.5". They have a pretty flat response and are roughly the same sensitivity as your tweets... I've got a pair of the 5.5" that I use at home (I know, different environment) and they shine! The reason I bought them was based on recommendations on here in the first place. I'm sure there are plenty of people that are using these in their vehicles.
> 
> Good luck on your search!


Interesting! Never seen that one. The price is definitely right! According to the response at the bottom they break up a little early for my 5k cutoff, but I'll definitely put them on the list.
Thanks!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

CDM360, 1ft molded Mogami ICs and pair or 4Ohm Silver Flutes incoming.
I doubt I'll have time to install this weekend, but I've begun the rack for the crossover.

I do hope this does the trick. Much as I enjoy tuning and playing, I'd much rather listen than pull door panels again...


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

MCD360 showed up this evening.



I'm surprised by it's weight - feels very solid.
Also thought I read it was .75" deep. Seemed thin, but I thought it would make for an easy instal. At an actual 1.75" I hope I still have room for it in my designated location.
If not, well, I know how to cut wood...
First I'm going to try mounting it from the back and see if that does the trick.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

The Silver Flutes have arrived!



Also got the crossover mounting plate roughed out.



Too bad this weekend is so over-booked - I REALLY want to put all this stuff in.
I'm - cough, cough - not coming - cough cough - in tomorrow...
Actually, I've missed so many days staying home with my girls this year, that's really not an option. Ah well, better to wait, and enjoy it for years to come.


----------



## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

I really think you're gonna like those Flutes!


Beware of autocorrect...


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

:thumbsup:


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

If I do, Damon, know that it's all your fault!

(If I don't, I'm sure it's the install, or the high-cutoff passive crossovers, or the vehicle acoustics, or...). Nah - I'm really looking forward to dropping 'em in.
They do seem big, though!


----------



## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Looks good! I've had two pairs of Flutes go through my hands although I never installed them. I was impressed by their build quality though. Let me know when you get them in. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

It doesn't look very different, but I got the threaded nutserts inserted and mounted the MCD360 and hinges to the board. All set to go into the amp rack over the weekend, provided I get some sunshine that coincides with free time.
The lower bank of RCA's are a close fit, but my sample Kimbers go on just fine. Hoping the Monster and Mogami I'll be using for the final aren't much fatter.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Alright - got the Crossover installed and up & running!

Only reasonable place I could stick it was in front of the DSP. It sticks out a bit, so I'll need to cut a clearance hole in the rack cover. Should be able to get to it this weekend, put it's not tippy top priority.





I do have some 1ft Mogami cables on order which should be a little cleaner. Also thinking or braiding the pwr, gnd and remote wires together where they have slack to open & close. Look's not as clean as I would like, but it should be okay once the cover's on.

More importantly, with X-Overs doubled up on the Sub (12dB/Oct on Amp and 18/dB Clarion) it sounds much cleaner and tighter than before.
I defeated the on-board JL X-Over to the fronts. Set in the 80Hz range, the crazy popping from the fronts is gone! Had the offending songs up over 100dB with no problem (a little distortion up high, but I haven't optimized gains yet.)
Pulling out the cascaded F-Mods brought the tonality and life back. Thank goodness.

Also re set the front channel EQ flat in all bands in anticipation of the Silver Flutes. Sounds like I knew the JL's could. So, I guess their big hump is down lower than I thought. 
Big question is, I know there's something wrong with the JL's - but the current setup isn't activating the problem. So, should I leave 'em? Or still replace them with the Silver Flute W17RC38's I have sitting in the garage?
(I am curious to see how those sound!)


BTW, I checked out a JX360/2 amp at my local dealer. The crossover worked just fine. Mine must be defective, but (like the speakers) I bought it from one of those cheapie online warehouses, so I'm out of luck on warranty. I remember a time when stuff was built to last and warranties were kind of superfluous or bragging rights. Seems those days are over. (Not just in regard to car stereo.) So, from here on out, authorized dealers here I come. It's more money, but it's really worth it for the service and support.


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> Big question is, I know there's something wrong with the JL's - but the current setup isn't activating the problem. So, should I leave 'em? Or still replace them with the Silver Flute W17RC38's I have sitting in the garage?
> (I am curious to see how those sound!)


I say swap them out to find out. Even if someone else has heard the two different drivers, chances are they haven't heard them in your exact same installation so their opinion may not be appliacable to you.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Golden Ear said:


> I say swap them out to find out. Even if someone else has heard the two different drivers, chances are they haven't heard them in your exact same installation so their opinion may not be appliacable to you.


True. Very true. It's just extra work and a couple more hours.
But I already bought the drivers, replacement door clips, and trim removal tools. So I should just bite the bullet and do it.


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

I'm interested to find out what you think of the Flutes. For $30 ea I can easily recommend them to friends when they're looking for a 6&1/2 mid.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Silver Flutes are In!

They are quite a bit larger than the C5 6.5's:






I could line up 2 opposing screw holes, but the rest had to be re-drilled. While I was in there, I added more sound dampener to the door panels and those hard plastic crossovers.



Got the driver's side in yesterday:



Except for the rain, it went a little easier than I expected.
So today, when I had a couple spare hours I started the passenger side. Turns out the factory mount wasn't cut back as far - so once in, I couldn't get the door panel back on.
So I took it out, trimmed it, added damping and cord weatherstrip, and mounted the driver:



Now it fits:



But it took an extra hour plus, so I had to start dinner for the family and had no time to listen.
1/2 song just to make sure it worked. They aren't overpowering - don't seem that much more efficient than the JLs. But the upper harmonics are bright and alive, not dark and closed in like the C5's. And the bass seems to have more snap and definition. So it's definitely looking positive.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Just wow.
After my walk tonight I spent about 1/2hr just listening in the driveway. Mostly audiophile stuff from a couple test CD's - to make sure there's nothing terribly amiss.
Bass is (finally!) nice and tight & tuneful; upper harmonics sparkle; detail is there is spades. I had the EQ nearly flat - just a slight cut to 175Hz I forgot to tune out after making the C5's listenable. Tomorrow will come a bigger test - driving to work with "regular" music, and probably trying some more taxing stuff. For now, I am very, very impressed with the Silver Flutes. Thanks, Damon, for the recommendation. Sorry I ever accused the Audiomobile of being slow and thumpy. I lay its deficiencies at the feet of my former midbasses.


----------



## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Nice job! The SF's look really well made in person. Its interesting how OEM drivers seem so much bigger than name brand drivers. My Seas look way bigger than the Focal I have too.


----------



## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> Just wow.
> After my walk tonight I spent about 1/2hr just listening in the driveway. Mostly audiophile stuff from a couple test CD's - to make sure there's nothing terribly amiss.
> Bass is (finally!) nice and tight & tuneful; upper harmonics sparkle; detail is there is spades. I had the EQ nearly flat - just a slight cut to 175Hz I forgot to tune out after making the C5's listenable. Tomorrow will come a bigger test - driving to work with "regular" music, and probably trying some more taxing stuff. For now, I am very, very impressed with the Silver Flutes. Thanks, Damon, for the recommendation. Sorry I ever accused the Audiomobile of being slow and thumpy. I lay its deficiencies at the feet of my former midbasses.


Awesome!! I'm hoping to be up at SiS in August for a comp, I would love to hear the SF's in an auto environment!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

DRTHJTA said:


> Awesome!! I'm hoping to be up at SiS in August for a comp, I would love to hear the SF's in an auto environment!


Sounds great! Let me know when.
I'd love to give a listen to the Jetta.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I need to re-do the beauty panel, but at least it mostly fits. I didn't account for the thickness of the RCA connectors.



The new foot long cables make it so much neater in there. Aahhhh.





The Silver Flutes blend so much better with both the woofers and the tweets than the JLs did. MidBass isn't overpowering; upper mids are present and smooth. I can dial out the EQ, turn down the sub for a smooth balance, and just enjoy the music. So Nice!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Just want to post an update now that the Silver Flutes are getting broken in.

When I was this far in with the JLs I started spending all my time tuning, trying to tame the midbass and get it to blend with the sub, and bump up the presence without causing harshness.

With the Silver Flute W17RC38-04 6.5" wool mids, I just listen to the music. After getting the sub flat from 40-63 Hz, and crossing over at 80, I put a slight boost at 125Hz in the mids to add some snap to kick drums, and another very slight one at 8kHz on the tweets for a dash or air and sparkle. Everything else is set flat.
Still using the JL 2-way passive crossovers and 3/4" silk tweeters.
On live tracks, accoustic discs, and music made with real instruments in an actual space the sound is simply wonderful. Smooth, articulate, detailed, open, believable. Drum to tuba to bass to horns to vocals to guitars to pianos all sound like actual instruments. It just draws me in to listen. Which is wonderful sitting in the driveway - but may not be the best thing while I'm driving??? 

On processed/electronic music and pop/hip-hop it still sounds great but doesn't knock me over the way some systems can. Mostly that's because I've turned down the bass to blend well (it's still solid down to 40Hz and decent down to 30.) When I turn it up, (the bass, that is) I get some of the "hit" back but the definition diminishes and I get a little plodding muddiness - fun for a while, and great on the low synth tones, but drums and bass guitar sound a little slow and out of focus. So I turn it down and enjoy.

My beloved rock music is an interesting quandry. One the one had, the vocals and guitars are smooth, clean and, frankly, luscious. On the other, the bass doesn't knock my socks off the way I know it can, kick drum is the slightest bit soft, and the searing distortion and addictive energy of a powerful performance aren't quite there in full measure. I can turn it up, but that doesn't always bring it back before hardness and harshness set in. 

I'm sure with some processing they could be made to do nearly anything well. But, if you're a metal-head or hard-rock kind of guy, I probably wouldn't recommend the flutes as a first choice. But if, like me, you like to listen to blues, jazz, folk, country, classical or enjoy the vocal and instrumental portions of rock music (or a bit of everything) they blow my mind at $30 a pop. And they sounded great on teldzc1's Raggae! I can see why they would be very satisfying in a set of speakers for the home, and I am - Finally - deliriously happy with my car stereo.

Thanks again, Damon and others, for recommending those to me.


----------



## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Hey thanks for the demo yesterday! Super impressed by the way your system sounds. The Silver Flutes really have a sweet midrang. Sometimes I'm fatigued after listening to my system in traffic. I have a feeling you could be happy listening to yours for hours. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks!
It was nice to meet you yesterday, and demo your system as well. 
The tonal balance was different, to be sure, but I found it very nice sounding and enjoyable.
As you know, around here, the traffic causes fatigue!
It was hard to go into the office this morning - I just wanted to sit in the parking lot and listen.


----------



## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

Looking forward to hearing your setup again!


Beware of autocorrect...


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

I'd like you hear it to. You gonna be at the comp on Saturday? I've already been recommending the Silver Flutes to friends. None have bought them yet, tho.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

This Saturday I'm picking my folks up at the airport and preparing for about a dozen people over on Easter. Not gonna make it. But I'll be around if you wanna swing by for a quick listen, Golden Ear. Are you bringing the truck?

Is that Mobile Warz? I've wanted to go to a comp for like 20 years, but never gotten around to it.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

DRTHJTA said:


> Looking forward to hearing your setup again!
> 
> 
> Beware of autocorrect...


I don't think I ever told you - the night before the SiS GTG I was messing around with subwoofer polarity. That morning, something didn't seem right but I didn't want to spend the GTG working on it. When I got home, I noticed that one of the sub speaker wires wasn't hooked up! So the mids were Hi-passed, but there was no bass going on. 
Since then I've replaced 3 drivers and added a crossover and processor - I'd say it sounds rather different now.


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

tjswarbrick said:


> This Saturday I'm picking my folks up at the airport and preparing for about a dozen people over on Easter. Not gonna make it. But I'll be around if you wanna swing by for a quick listen, Golden Ear. Are you bringing the truck?
> 
> Is that Mobile Warz? I've wanted to go to a comp for like 20 years, but never gotten around to it.


If I have time I'll take you up on that offer. Yeah I'm competing the truck for the 2nd time. I made a couple changes since the last comp so we'll see how she does. Yeah it's NorCal MobileWarz.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Don't be dismayed. I shared too many views for my PhotoBucket account. Pictures should return around 4/21 or 4/22.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Pics are back up, and I'm nearly done with the new cosmetic cover for the revised amp rack. That Crossover stuck out way farther than I thought, and I've gone through 4 iterations of spacers now.
Should have new pics in a day or two.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Here's the amp rack cover, nearly done.
I know perfed pegboard doesn't really offer adequate ventilation, but there are 3/8" dia 1" long spacers along the top and bottom, the sides are open, and it's about 2 inches away from the amps. The Class D sub amp and 2 processors shouldn't generate much heat, and the Class A/B stereo amp is running the front stage at 4 Ohms, so think (hope!) it'll be mostly okay.

The cutout is from when I was cutting it real close over the -over. Since I couldn't find 3/4" spacers and jumped up to 1" it's entirely unnecessary. 











Hopefully the contact cement doesn't take a full 72 hours to cure enough to trim carpet and install. I'm really hoping to wrap this up tomorrow night, or Friday morning at the latest.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Completed carpeting the cover, and got it installed.

Put a fork in me - because I AM DONE! (With this instal, anyways.)





Stealth mode - seems to work quite well:


----------



## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Like it! Nice work!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks David!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Another quick update:

I said in my Silver Flutes review that, in my system, they weren't ideal for Rock.

I had a musician friend, who also does sound for a lot of open-mic nights and small venues, take a listen last week. He brought a CD he thought would blow him away, but was bothered by a dip above the kick drum but below the lower vocals region. Said the overall sound was a bit "bright." I put in some rock (Led Zeppelin) and it was all wrong. Then played some great jazz and small-ensemble vocal tracks - and we were both stunned by the musicality and overall sound quality. He observed that the system was tuned about ideally for jazz.

I took a look with test tones and my cellphone RTA, and there was a bit of a dip at 160Hz. I turned up 175 on my processor just a couple dB. I'm not going to fool myself that it's flat, but everything I've listened to since then has been absolutely outstanding.

So, being a car, EQ is necessary - but I'm once again very happy with my system, and find these Silver Flutes just amazing for the price (or even quite a bit more, I think.)


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Tons of tweaking and a MECA Comp later... 
My center image was off due to my ear acting up; midbass rainbowed down to the doors; excessive door vibration at certain frequencies; low bass too prominent and pulled to the rear; bit of excessive sibilance.

Fixed center image in a jiffy; turned down 8k and balanced 1k and 2k a bit; dialed in midbass levels a touch more; re-set gains and matched bass a bit closer.

So close... but when the going gets fun, the midbass gets all bent out of shape. Snare impact is good; kick impact is wanting; low stuff growls well but upper bass/lower midbass doesn't have the impact and presence of instruments above and below. When I turn it up, either with volume or EQ, it just falls apart - doors vibrate, and tonality goes out the window. Impact, tactility and presence never increase. Just distortion.

So, back to the drawing board. Well, not quite. I still need a tuning partner, and some good tracks, to help T/A the fronts to the sub and pull the bass all the way forward at X-Over freq (~ 80hz.) In the meantime, I ordered F.A.S.T. Foam circles to mate the driver with the door card and better direct music through the grill rather than back into the door. Also picked up some King Star Board 3/4" HDPE to fab a mount and spacer and chuck the thin, uneven factory brackets. Need to find the quality butyl rope.

Spent 3 hours tonight making a circle jig for the router and laying out targets on 1/2" maple birch to prototype mount and spacer. Once successful, I'll take what I learned and do the actual polyethylene boards. Wondering if I can, or should, try to angle-mount them a bit up and back to get a tad more on-axis. Also searching for a how-to / tutorial to teach me what I may be missing before I start cutting. Pics to follow regardless.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Cutting HDPE wasn't nearly as bad as I feared. Actually, compared to the dust of MDF or maple-birch, the chips are quite easy to deal with and clean up. Plus it machines really cleanly and can be cut fairly quick.

Here's an overview of current status. I think, looking at pictures of the twice-cut factory mount, you'll agree that this is a big improvement:

First, the (hacked up) factory bracket, as removed from the vehicle:


Here's the Silver Flute sitting on the factory bracket, sealed with the el-cheapo rope caulk:


 

Traced bottom of mount and front of speaker onto foamboard. Didn't actually use it, but got a feel for sizing and complexity:


Traced onto top and bottom sheets of 1/2" birch ply prototypes:




Had some black 3/4" King Starboard HDPE cut to raw size by my friendly neighborhood TAP:


Didn't want to spring for a circle jig and the associated learning curve, so I fab'd my own out of scrap aluminum for ring OD, ring ID, and mount ID. Planned and measured to use 3/8" cutting bit in palm router.





Cut first prototype ring in birch. So pretty:


Fits on the top like a charm. Sadly, this will be surface-mount, not back-mount, so this doesn't matter much:


ID was a hair too tight. Had to switch to 1/2" bit for ID. Not so easy since ring was cut, but I secured it in place around the core with a couple screws and it did okay:


A gap on rear mount; would be press-fit for surface:




Flutes have kinda a hefty magnet. Had to stack 3 sheets of 1/2" (ring, mount, with add'l spacer in between) to get a decent feel. This is how much deeper it is that the 1.5" bracket:


 











Neigbor's baby was sleeping, so I had to forgo power cutters for the base. Did most with a hacksaw; smoothed out with sanding drum on drill press (it's pretty quiet, and I can run it in the garage with the door closed.)





HDPE ring was finished up yesterday on the router. Did I mention how (comparatively) pleasant this stuff is to work?













Initial plywood ring OD was a tiny bit small. Would work fine, but since I trimmed the ID I wanted to maximize meat in the ring. Cut starboard with 3/16" bit and it came out perfect.

Should be able to router out center of mount for magnet clearance after work this week. Then I just need the foam to come in, and tips on securing mount to car, ring to mount, and speaker to ring. But I'll start a new thread for that. Feel free to send best practices or relevant links!

Thanks for looking.

- Tom


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Completed the passenger side spacer & mount. Curing the adhesives. With luck I'll be able to install it tomorrow. Not much room in there for the terminals, but it should be fine as long as I wire up the speaker first.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Did a touch more work to it; secured the ring to the mount with wood screws and ultra-black silicone RTV. It actually fits in the car!





Perhaps more amazingly - the speaker fits it!



Add the F.A.S.T. Ring and button it all up:



Now, on to the driver's side. More sound deadening, more securely fastening the crossover in place. Must Kill Rattles!
Also, I padded the tweets down 1.5dB. Only pass side so far; made driver's overpowering so I aimed it toward the dash. Changed driver's jumper today with the door card off and mid/woofer out, so no final test yet, but I did notice a reduced level of sibilance and an absence of harshness with yesterday's change. So I think it's the right step.


----------



## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Nice work, Tom! I need to hear your car next time I see you. I missed the opportunity at the SIS GTG/Comp.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks Dom!
There was a lot going on that day. And I was out of town the other direction during State. But you're welcome to give it a listen anytime.
We need to get ourselves down to the aquarium sometime - it's been a while.


----------



## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Sounds like we need to have a meet in Nov or early December.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

I'm in!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Got the driver's side all ready to go.

Padded down the tweet 1.5dB; put adhesive and foam on the front and back of the crossover housing; added more Roadkill to the door card; Stuck the F.A.S.T. foam deadener in the mounting hole:



Mounted the speaker to the new mount:


And mounted THAT to the door:



Added the rest of the F.A.S.T. ring:





Took some measurements, and came up with this: Right Ear Mic Location Left Ear Avg.



Bumped up 8kHz (it had been turned WAY down before, when the tweets were at full output.) No new measurements since then, but it's pretty close. Midbass just seems a touch thick; but drums have impact and lows don't pull to the rear. And so far, driver's door vibration is eradicated!


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Niece's old Kenwood sub amp went kaplooey. She's moving out of state this month, and can't afford a replacement. I've already started stocking up for my next build/car. Should have an extra amp. Don't want to send her the new one, so:

Out came the JX360/2, and in went a ARC 2075SE. Power rating is about the same, ARC offers a bit more flexibility in crossovers. Also, I was able to remove the MCD360 and a couple extra wires from the system. Cleaned up the install considerably, and it seems the sound a tiny bit, as well.

Gotta turn gain WAY down on the ARC to not boost sytem noise, and I no longer have handy polarity switch, so some gain-matching, and front/rear T/A are in order - as is a bit more tuning. But, I got a Windows laptop for christmas so it should be considerably easier now. Going to see if I prefer True RTA or REW, and see if I can figure out PicoScope, and take it from there.

For now, I need to ship the JL amp to my niece, and update my sig. And fab a less intrusive beauty panel.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Tested the 360/1 powered by car, but driving a set of 6.5" bookshelf speakers. Crossover works just fine, HPF and LPF.
Guess I never needed that Clarion at all! (Though it worked quite well, and had the added bonus of phase switch.) 

I have got some cabin gain or constructive interference or something - along with door vibration in that range - in the midbass region, which has been making midbass integration with sub rather challenging. Hopefully with the ARC's 24dB/oct crossover and some better analysis tools I can whip it into shape.

So far I'm LOVING the ARC Se amp. At worst, it sounds identical to JL. At it's best (still small-ensemble, acoustic music with an expressive vocalist), it's involving, detailed, and brings me just that much closer to the performers. Seems to have tamed a touch of sibilance or high-frequency hash, as well.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Interesting.

RTA Light on phone shows 31.5Hz and 40Hz a little soft; REW shows 'em overstrong; Tru RTA shows them flat (compared to 50Hz.) SPL Meter on "C" weighting more-or-less agrees with phone. Adjusted for a smooth transition on all 4.

100Hz bump caused by cabin reinforcement. Full-range, fronts are strong down to near 40Hz, with big bump at 100. Cranked the HP filter to smooth out the bump, then dialed in the sub to even it out. Crossover looks to be in 70-80Hz range. 
Re-dialed bass/front T/A so 80Hz warble does not locate to rear. Filled in the region from 65-80Hz very nicely. And, oh, the impact. And depth. And imaging. So nice!


----------



## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Nice progress Tom. We'll have to meet up again. Would love to hear how your updates sound. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Sounds great, David.
I think I finally got the midbass sorted - I'll need to confirm on some hardcore ragae!
Tomorrow afternoon???


----------



## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

How good do these FAST rings work and perform. Also, where do you go to purchase to them?


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Got the F.A.S.T. rings from Sound Connection in MN.
In my case, they are great for directing the sound through the factory grille instead of into the door, and really helped tame some spurious vibrations. I thought I noticed a slightly carboardy/wooly coloration to the midrange, but it's been tuned out. Can't say for sure if it was caused by the foam, or if it was merely an artifact of the prior tune. I was unwilling to cut the factory grilles off, and was at a loss to add more deadening to the door card. For me, they have been the perfect solution.


----------



## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Thanks, I was curious if it was somewhere like HD or Lowes or even internet? Either way, thanks.

How are you liking the Silver Flutes?


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Loving, loving, loving the Silver Flutes.
I wish I could cross 'em a bit lower - still LP'd at 5K, Passive. But they go lower, stronger than a 6.5 that sounds so amazingly clean and clear has any right to. Not to mention they are affordable enough to just "try out."


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Finally a couple shots with the Clarion out of the way, and the Arc running the fronts:





Also took measurements with REW and UMIK-1 on new laptop, 3 positions around my head averaged came out like this:



(No, it wasn't actually hitting 120dB peaks.)
I've made a note to smooth the peaks and dips I have a touch of control over.

Looks like I still need to update my signature...


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

tjswarbrick said:


> I've made a note to smooth the peaks and dips I have a touch of control over.
> 
> Looks like I still need to update my signature...


Updated sig!


----------



## Iamsmuts (May 24, 2015)

I have some flutes running as band passed, attenuated rear fill. I was using the JL JX360/2 to power them. I just got in a PPI 900.4 so I can go active. . . . I'm running Morel Maximo 6.5's passive in the front right now.

I swapped out the JL for the PPI today in preparation. I tried cranking up the flutes but they don't seem to get very loud. All of my doors are sealed and deadened. 

The Morels are currently running off a Pinoeer PRS-D800. With a little less power, the Morels completely drown out the flutes. I want it this way for rear fill. But I'm looking for better front components. I was considering the flutes, but I worry that they aren't loud enough. Perhaps it's because I'm comparing the front with tweeters, to the rear without. I'll try an apples to apples comparison tomorrow. . . .


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Sensitivity is supposed to be slightly higher for the Silver Flutes (4 Ohm version.) Curious to hear how the comparison turns out.


----------



## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Car is gone. 

Sold it to my sister.
Big upgrade from her worn out, factory-audio Fusion.
Her biggest concern was hooking her iPhone up to the AUX input.

At least this is here for reference if/WHEN my B-I-L wants to change it up, or pilfer parts for his Vette build.
(He's already snagged the ARC KAR 5 1/4's I had given to my nephew... and hooked to a non-DSP single-DIN Pioneer.)
I got a SoundStream Rubicon amp to replace the 2075SE, but didn't have time to swap it out. So, if 3 amps is enough for my coming build, he's got a real nice subwoofer amp sitting there...

Looking forward to the next chapter - trying to convince Bing to put a bunch of my pre-purchased components into a 2012 135i convertible.


----------

