# How good are Tru Technology Amps?



## macmovieman (Dec 24, 2009)

I am looking for a high end amp that will power a Dynaudio setup and I wanted to know where True Technologies falls in the pecking order? I keep seeing some of the same companies listed like Audison, Zap, and I wanted to see how they compare next to some of the other top brands. I am purchasing the Dyn's because I do not like my music colored and I guess I am looking for an amp with the same trats.


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## PureDynamics (Nov 3, 2007)

They are very good.. On par or better then what you listed.. Can't go wrong.. What models where you thinking about?


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## macmovieman (Dec 24, 2009)

PureDynamics said:


> They are very good.. On par or better then what you listed.. Can't go wrong.. What models where you thinking about?


I was thinking about going with a couple of S45 amps. Right now I am not sure where I am going to mount them or how hot they are going to get. I am also _slightly _concerned about the power hungry Dyn's.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

they make great shelf decoration. had an s44, have 2 s500s. never heard any of em.


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## macmovieman (Dec 24, 2009)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> they make great shelf decoration. had an s44, have 2 s500s. never heard any of em.


Please tell me you are kidding?


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## Vega-LE (Feb 22, 2009)

Brax amps are suppose to be top dogs. Though, I have no experience with them.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

macmovieman said:


> I was thinking about going with a couple of S45 amps. Right now I am not sure where I am going to mount them or how hot they are going to get. I am also _slightly _concerned about the power hungry Dyn's.


They have VERY quiet fans and enough balls.


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

^Quiet fans does not means it will stay quiet forever. It will still be noisy over time.


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## dannyg (Jan 20, 2009)

great amps if you like "American muscle", they have huge amounts of pure power which results in great bass, they lack a bit of detail in mid/top end, and that's after having both the Steel series (S44) and the Billet series (B-SIX) in my car, both lack any "emotion" what so ever.


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## macmovieman (Dec 24, 2009)

dannyg said:


> great amps if you like "American muscle", they have huge amounts of pure power which results in great bass, they lack a bit of detail in mid/top end, and that's after having both the Steel series (S44) and the Billet series (B-SIX) in my car, both lack any "emotion" what so ever.


What amp did you change to or do you think was a better fit for you that did not lack emotion.


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## dannyg (Jan 20, 2009)

macmovieman,

previous to TRU i had an Audison VRx/LRx & Genesis Series III (DM+ST100) both IMHO were much more detailed in the mid/top end sections, I've heard many other amps as-well, currently I'm running on Celestra RA series and soon enough changing to VA.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

dannyg said:


> macmovieman,
> 
> previous to TRU i had an Audison VRx/LRx & Genesis Series III (DM+ST100) both IMHO were much more detailed in the mid/top end sections, I've heard many other amps as-well, currently I'm running on Celestra RA series and soon enough changing to VA.


People usually describe those amps as being.."colored", which is probably what your hearing in those Audisons.


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## macmovieman (Dec 24, 2009)

Yes, I am not looking for colored or even warm sounding amps. I want neutral, layed back, clean not in yoru face sounding speakers and amps. This is one of the reasons why I am leaning towards amps that lack any coloring.


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## dannyg (Jan 20, 2009)

mark1478,

actually not "hearing" but heard, if i liked the VRx sound so much i wouldn't have replaced it for a Genesis and if i liked the Genesis so much i wouldn't have replaced it with a TRU, IMHO both had more emotion then all 3 TRU amps i heard, S44/S45/Billet SIX, with TRU all i felt was that it packed so much bass that all the mid/top end was simply "gone", as if it had nothing to offer expect bass/power.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

I wouldn't call the Series III colored, but I have heard that about the Audisons. Trus are typically very clinical and accurate.

In terms of quality and construction, Trus have very few equals. Only the best Audison and Brax amps could challenge the Tru.

Are they worth the money? Meh. I wouldn't pay list price for them. When you start spending over $1k for any amp, the benefits are miniscule.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

dannyg said:


> mark1478,
> 
> actually not "hearing" but heard, if i liked the VRx sound so much i wouldn't have replaced it for a Genesis and if i liked the Genesis so much i wouldn't have replaced it with a TRU, IMHO both had more emotion then all 3 TRU amps i heard, S44/S45/Billet SIX, *with TRU all i felt was that it packed so much bass that all the mid/top end was simply "gone", as if it had nothing to offer expect bass/power.*


This sounds like more of a tuning/install issue. Seriously guys, speaker distortion and coloration is gonna be way more of an issue than amplifier "sound".

Tuning with amps and cables, whats next?


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

dannyg said:


> mark1478,
> 
> actually not "hearing" but heard, if i liked the VRx sound so much i wouldn't have replaced it for a Genesis and if i liked the Genesis so much i wouldn't have replaced it with a TRU, IMHO both had more emotion then all 3 TRU amps i heard, S44/S45/Billet SIX, with TRU all i felt was that it packed so much bass that all the mid/top end was simply "gone", as if it had nothing to offer expect bass/power.


hey man, not knocking. people hear things the way they hear things..everyone has their own opinion. Thats just how ive seen them described. Ive never owned an audison so i cant comment on their sound. I mean, i would think that someone would want more power in an amp and have the speakers and maybe eq do what its gotta do than have an amp with less power thats eqing the music. IMO, i want a colorless amp, no emotion, just something that amplifies sound. my eq will take care of the rest. I just purchased a billet six like you previously owned, and i hope its exactly how u described. if its too bassy, (sp?) ill turn a few knobs.


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## dannyg (Jan 20, 2009)

benny said:


> This sounds like more of a tuning/install issue. Seriously guys, speaker distortion and coloration is gonna be way more of an issue than amplifier "sound".
> 
> Tuning with amps and cables, whats next?


benny,

perhaps, the only issue is that it was exactly the same setup with all amps I've heard, and to top that after selling my Billet SIX to a friend of mine I've heard it in his setup and felt exactly the same, he likes it, i don't, and that that's fine by me.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

dannyg said:


> benny,
> 
> perhaps, the only issue is that it was exactly the same setup with all amps I've heard, and to top that after selling my Billet SIX to a friend of mine I've heard it in his setup and felt exactly the same, he likes it, i don't, and that that's fine by me.


yup..as long as your happy with it  people are happy with tang band drivers which are so cheap lol. i wish i were like them.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Im out, there's no talking sense to audiophiles.


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## zapp (Apr 2, 2008)

benny said:


> This sounds like more of a tuning/install issue. Seriously guys, speaker distortion and coloration is gonna be way more of an issue than amplifier "sound".
> 
> Tuning with amps and cables, whats next?


^^^^
Thank-you!!

Everytime I hear people talking about how an amp 'sounds' espetially when they talk about one being harsh or another being warm or another 'lacking emotion'....I wanna puke a little bit.

It's your speakers, your tuning, xover points...install that make your system sound a particular way.

Some amps are more powerful than others. Some are 'quieter' in that they don't introduce noise in your system. Thats it though!!

Stop the silliness.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

benny said:


> Im out, there's no talking sense to audiophiles.


I know a few audiophiles that will argue till they are blue in the face all the reasons why car audio is POINTLESS.


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## katsooba (Jun 29, 2008)

just to make a point clear guys,

dannyg is the distributor of Celestra amps in Israel.

i didnt know amplifiers had "emotions" and "feelings", i hope mine wont start cutting itself


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I know a few audiophiles that will argue till they are blue in the face all the reasons why car audio is POINTLESS.


why would an audiophile thing car audio is pointless? Benny I agree, an amp should do what its suppose to..just simplify..amplify.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

mark1478 said:


> why would an audiophile thing car audio is pointless? Benny I agree, an amp should do what its suppose to..just simplify..amplify.


FWIW..

There are many audiophiles out there that feel that the automotive environment is so compromised that SQ at the level that they're accustomed to is simply not possible. It comes across as a general dis-regard for car audio.

The closest parallel I can think of is the same simplified generalization that the car audio guys typically extend towards home audio in that it is just a matter of "placing your speakers in a perfect triangle and you're done" when in reality this is very far from true.


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## BlackB (May 24, 2008)

dannyg said:


> great amps if you like "American muscle", they have huge amounts of pure power which results in great bass, they lack a bit of detail in mid/top end, and that's after having both the Steel series (S44) and the Billet series (B-SIX) in my car, both lack any "emotion" what so ever.


Well, after more than 2 years with Billet 475 - I really don't know what you're talking about, honestly.

I'ts the most clearer, detailed and REAL sounding amp I have ever had or heard so far. No colouring, no extra bass and definitely no loss of details whatsoever.

From your description above, I thought you're talking about RF amps or alike.

Have a great new 2010 all of you.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

Se7en said:


> FWIW..
> 
> There are many audiophiles out there that feel that the automotive environment is so compromised that SQ at the level that they're accustomed to is simply not possible. It comes across as a general dis-regard for car audio.
> 
> The closest parallel I can think of is the same simplified generalization that the car audio guys typically extend towards home audio in that it is just a matter of "placing your speakers in a perfect triangle and you're done" when in reality this is very far from true.


ahhhh gotcha. home audio. didnt think of that, was thinking from a pure car audio standpoint. I guess that makes sense in a way. Im a musician, kinda..been playing the guitar for years. i like hearing things in a certain way. i have GFs and friends that ask why i spend so much money on CA. "Your only in your car for an hour or so a day" I dont care lol. my stereo gives me a reason to get up, get in my car and look forward to my morning commute lol.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

BlackB said:


> Well, after more than 2 years with Billet 475 - I really don't know what you're talking about, honestly.
> 
> I'ts the most clearer, detailed and REAL sounding amp I have ever had or heard so far. No colouring, no extra bass and definitely no loss of details whatsoever.
> 
> ...



yo black B! cant wait to get my billet 6. did you run active with your set up? I have Dynaudio 362s, JL w6, and that billet. Im wondering if I should go all out and go active with the 362s with the 6, wait a lil while and then get a sub amp of some sort. or just run the 300 x 2 and 600 x 1 passively.


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## 30something (Jan 9, 2009)

benny said:


> Tuning with amps and cables, whats next?


That's sig material right there! :laugh: ...and ohh so true!


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

The argument has merit here. No one is saying Tru has magic essque, just they they are very true to the signal. That's not amp magic, it's design. 

You can order Trus with no pre-amp stage. I don't know of any amp that could possibly be more accurate than that. We all know amps don't sound alike. Why? Because some manufacturers want it that way. They add warmth or a little bass boost. Tru does not (at least not on the Billets or Coppers). There is no crossover to defeat, no bass boost, no subsonic filters, no noise gates, NOTHING. You can tell me that some filters and boosts are defeatable, but some have been proven not to be despite claims. With Tru, you don't have to worry about it. It ain't in there in the first place. I love Tru because they reincarnated the Linear Power "less is more" philosophy.

Trus are clinical and accurate by design, not magic pixie dust.


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## BlackB (May 24, 2008)

mark1478 said:


> yo black B! cant wait to get my billet 6. did you run active with your set up? I have Dynaudio 362s, JL w6, and that billet. Im wondering if I should go all out and go active with the 362s with the 6, wait a lil while and then get a sub amp of some sort. or just run the 300 x 2 and 600 x 1 passively.


I'll begin my comment with a huge appreciation to Mooble's comment above. 

Yes, I'm running active with the "pre-amp" turned off, I suggest that you'll try running active at first and see if you get enough bass response from the Dyn's woofers(which I believe you will from an 8" woofer), you might even want to sell the W6 afterwards.

If the bass response won't satisfy you. then buy some nice mono amp.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

I'm borrowing this thread cause it is relevant to my interests 

I have the opportunity to buy a pair of Tru Techs, new in box, at a fair price (I think), one C-7.2AT tube amp (2x13W) and one C-7.2T hybrid tube amp (2x150W) for about $2000 here in Norway. These amps will power a Focal Utopia setup of Audiom TLR tweeters and Audiom 6W mids. Both these drivers have a high sensitivity of 96db, so powervise the amps will be fine, but is there anybody in here that have listened to these amps incar?

I would guess the tube amps has a warm and mellow sound to them, but I think I read somewhere that the 7.2AT sounded kinda thin and brittle, and not at all like butler and milbert tube amps.

Anyone tested the tube amps in here?


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## dannyg (Jan 20, 2009)

katsooba said:


> just to make a point clear guys,
> 
> dannyg is the distributor of Celestra amps in Israel.
> 
> i didnt know amplifiers had "emotions" and "feelings", i hope mine wont start cutting itself


katsooba,

i never tried to hide it lol, even ANT is fully aware of it, you can approach him and ask, never even once it this thread did i say Celestra is in any way better then TRU nor did i say its a "****ty" amp, i said that it does match my "taste", i stated my own personal opinion (*i.e: IMHO*) about the amp after listening to it in my car for weeks.

maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm right? but that's my opinion, take it or leave it.  

by the way, why didn't you mention you are a TRU distributor? i guess you forgot, silly sally. 


--Danny.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

mark1478 said:


> ahhhh gotcha. home audio. didnt think of that, was thinking from a pure car audio standpoint. I guess that makes sense in a way. Im a musician, kinda..been playing the guitar for years. i like hearing things in a certain way. i have GFs and friends that ask why i spend so much money on CA. "Your only in your car for an hour or so a day" I dont care lol. my stereo gives me a reason to get up, get in my car and look forward to my morning commute lol.


One of my late grandfather's friends in Texas was an extreme audiophile. IIRC, he spent close to $250k on the gear and he had a specially built "listening room" with ONE chair in it for him! He flat out REFUSED to listen to music in his vehicle because HE could not control the listening environment.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> One of my late grandfather's friends in Texas was an extreme audiophile. IIRC, he spent close to $250k on the gear and he had a specially built "listening room" with ONE chair in it for him! He flat out REFUSED to listen to music in his vehicle because HE could not control the listening environment.


Here's probably one of my favorite systems of all time (one of the best I've heard). It is safe to say that there are very few cars that would reach the potential of this system. Thiis being said, the amplifiers in this system cost more than most would spend building a competition car.

As an aside, he's currently tearing this room and doing a full rebuild.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

They are great amps. Some lucky SOB picked up a used, 9/10 condition TRU Billet 2ch for ~$175 on eBay recently. Keep your eyes peeled...I was out of town that time.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

I cannot wait to get mine!

I should have one in a couple of days and the other two in a few weeks. The two that I just picked up from Don are being sent back to TRU for upgrades as well as black anodized cases to match the B-8 that's on its way.


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## lucas569 (Apr 17, 2007)

very good, a buddy has one w/ a dyn 3 ways and 10 morel ultimo and i was blown away at how noise free it was, sounded like his system was completely off between tracks.


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## SoundChaser (Apr 3, 2009)

The Billet series will not disappoint and probably will be the last amp you buy. I made a B-10  Stacked a B-4 atop a B-6


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

SoundChaser said:


> The Billet series will not disappoint and probably will be the last amp you buy. I made a B-10  Stacked a B-4 atop a B-6


Soundchaser,

What kind of car is that in. I have a single 1200 and am wondering if I will need to add a second (mounted IB, firing through leather).

Thx!


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## SoundChaser (Apr 3, 2009)

Se7en said:


> Soundchaser,
> 
> What kind of car is that in. I have a single 1200 and am wondering if I will need to add a second (mounted IB, firing through leather).
> 
> Thx!


2007 Honda Civic Sedan. Originally I had 1 Esotar 1200 sealed and pushed it with a PDX1.1000, it handled the power with no problems. Don’t be afraid to feed it with a lot more power than the 400watts as specd.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

SoundChaser said:


> 2007 Honda Civic Sedan. Originally I had 1 Esotar 1200 sealed and pushed it with a PDX1.1000, it handled the power with no problems. Don’t be afraid to feed it with a lot more power than the 400watts as specd.


Thanks for the reply. I'm assuming that you added another one for lack of output? Were you looking to reduce distortion? Thanks and sorry for all of the inquiry.

I was planning to feed mine 600w from the TRU b-2200. If I went with a pair, I could do 300 each.


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## bradinar (Jul 20, 2009)

Se7en said:


> Here's probably one of my favorite systems of all time (one of the best I've heard). It is safe to say that there are very few cars that would reach the potential of this system. Thiis being said, the amplifiers in this system cost more than most would spend building a competition car.
> 
> As an aside, he's currently tearing this room and doing a full rebuild.



Ya but does it sound as good as my Bose 3-2-1? Lol...j/k. that is amazing.


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## SoundChaser (Apr 3, 2009)

Se7en said:


> Thanks for the reply. I'm assuming that you added another one for lack of output? Were you looking to reduce distortion? Thanks and sorry for all of the inquiry.
> 
> I was planning to feed mine 600w from the TRU b-2200. If I went with a pair, I could do 300 each.


For most 1 is more than enough. It will buckle your windshield ever so slightly and blur your vision when you lean your head back on the headrest.  But it’s so accurate you crave more.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

SoundChaser said:


> For most 1 is more than enough. It will buckle your windshield ever so slightly and blur your vision when you lean your head back on the headrest.  But it’s so accurate you crave more.


Good deal. Thanks for the input. I'm thinking I'm going to stay on track with one for the time being.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

are those Peerless woofers and B&G Neo8s in those arrays?


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Se7en said:


> Good deal. Thanks for the input. I'm thinking I'm going to stay on track with one for the time being.


Absolutely. Caz - soundchaser is really a closet bass head sometimes.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

benny said:


> are those Peerless woofers and B&G Neo8s in those arrays?


Yup. Good eye! These are the GR Research LS9s, but custom built top to bottom. In the world of high end speakers, these are a relative bargain. I think that the standard LS9 kit listed around 6k or so. These as built ran about twice that if I recall.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

my tru is sitting in dons basement..sigh. hey Don! haha


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## SoundChaser (Apr 3, 2009)

6spdcoupe said:


> Absolutely. Caz - soundchaser is really a closet bass head sometimes.


Only when the piece in question calls for it


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

SoundChaser said:


> Only when the piece in question calls for it


haha Agreed !


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Se7en said:


>



Hey, I have some of those VAC goodies ..


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> Hey, I have some of those VAC goodies ..


How am I not surprised by this?

What kind of speakers are you using in your home rig or should I ask?


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Se7en said:


> How am I not surprised by this?
> 
> What kind of speakers are you using in your home rig or should I ask?


Honestly, nothing too extravagant or exotic fro now. Due to space, size is a concern - Dyn Contours.

BTW .. my 'home gear' is cheapo stuff. The VAC/Dyn rig is the waiting area for clients.


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> Honestly, nothing too extravagant or exotic fro now. Due to space, size is a concern - Dyn Contours.
> 
> BTW .. my 'home gear' is cheapo stuff. The VAC/Dyn rig is the waiting area for clients.


Crap...I want to be one of your clients! LOL!


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## macmovieman (Dec 24, 2009)

You guys are unbelievable! I would love to hear some of these systems.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Se7en said:


> Crap...I want to be one of your clients! LOL!


haha, but you are ! Just need to come visit me !


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## rockinridgeline (Feb 2, 2009)

To the OP. I am running DYN MW182. MD142, and F1 tweets, along with Soundsplinter 10" sub. Running two Tru S45's with a Zapco DSP6 for processing.

Before this setup, I had two Zapco DC1000.4's

The Zapcos are rated at more power, but I don't miss them. The Tru's have a much smaller footprint and honestly get just as loud and I like the sound better. I am a fan of the Zapco amps, but to me my midbass woke up with the Tru and the midrange sounds more real. It is very slight difference but there.

I have owned just about all of the hot brands from the 90's, including Soundstream Class A, PPI Art, Xtant, Rockford Power 1000, and could go on..... and would put the Tru's up against them all. 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that there is a huge difference once you get in this price range, but for power density, build quality, sound quality, and what I perceive to be long term reliability based on component quality and construction, I am very happy with the Tru's.


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## dkh (Apr 2, 2008)

Well, I had a Tru T4.100 which stayed for all of 30mins in my car... I suppose being a 'lower' range model it didn't have quite the bite I was looking for - and lacked mid/tweet anything. This was comparing to a Genesis DM200 (modded).

I thought all Tru amps sounded different otherwise why send off a Tru amp to have BB mods etc?

Honestly, not getting megabucks but, try a sinfoni 45.2 or 90.2 against the Tru/Genesis amps to hear a difference - if any :surprised:



benny said:


> This sounds like more of a tuning/install issue. Seriously guys, speaker distortion and coloration is gonna be way more of an issue than amplifier "sound".
> 
> Tuning with amps and cables, whats next?


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

benny said:


> are those Peerless woofers and B&G Neo8s in those arrays?


Sweet! Almost like my car stereo . Neo3's, Neo8's...


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## barrys (Dec 29, 2009)

If amplifiers just Amplify..............Heck I am going with Kraco Then !!!!! LOL


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

barrys said:


> If amplifiers just Amplify..............Heck I am going with Kraco Then !!!!! LOL


:laugh:


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## moneypit23 (Jan 6, 2010)

Mooble said:


> In terms of quality and construction, Trus have very few equals. Only the best Audison and Brax amps could challenge the Tru.


Laughing so hard I fell out of my chair.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

haakono said:


> I'm borrowing this thread cause it is relevant to my interests
> 
> I have the opportunity to buy a pair of Tru Techs, new in box, at a fair price (I think), one C-7.2AT tube amp (2x13W) and one C-7.2T hybrid tube amp (2x150W) for about $2000 here in Norway. These amps will power a Focal Utopia setup of Audiom TLR tweeters and Audiom 6W mids. Both these drivers have a high sensitivity of 96db, so powervise the amps will be fine, but is there anybody in here that have listened to these amps incar?
> 
> ...


Well, I went ahead and got them, and since I have only seen Tru amps in magazines and on the net, I was anxiuos to unbox my new amp and see it in the flesh for the first time. And I can tell you I was not let down, if it sounds just half as good as it looks I will be more than satisfied 

Got one of the amps in the mail on Saturday, the other is still on the way as it was stored and sent from a different location. This amp is the C-7-2T

I was told the amp was not used, but not that it had not even been taken out of its box ever, it came in its sealed plastic wrapping from the factory. 

Some pics:


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## dingaling (Apr 14, 2005)

ah yes...brings back memories...

i had the regular c7 4channel....one of my favorite amps of all time.


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## gymrat2005 (Oct 4, 2009)

friggin beautiful amp


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

they look great but man, the price!


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

Congrats! Those are sexy!


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

I had to sneak a peek under the lid, seems no expense was spared where people don't usually look either, nice components all around under here  Makes you feel good, hehe


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

^^Looks just like the tubes in my Marshall!


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## jayhawkblk (May 29, 2007)

Se7en said:


> I cannot wait to get mine!
> 
> I should have one in a couple of days and the other two in a few weeks. The two that I just picked up from Don are being sent back to TRU for upgrades as well as black anodized cases to match the B-8 that's on its way.


Welcome to the B8 revolution.

I love my Tru's I have run all the amps described before and I wont change my for anything. They do what they were built to do.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Got my C-7.2AT in the mail now, shipped in its own wooden crate opposed to the C-7.2T which came in a cardboard box. This amp is if possible even more stunning 


































Looking at its serial number, it seems very low - may this amp be nr.2 off the assembly line? How cool is that?


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

zapp said:


> ^^^^
> Thank-you!!
> 
> Everytime I hear people talking about how an amp 'sounds' espetially when they talk about one being harsh or another being warm or another 'lacking emotion'....I wanna puke a little bit.
> ...


Wrong, so wrong. In a perfect world, sure. NOT in the real world. I know FROM EXPERIENCE amps sound different. And I dont need to provide any reasons at all, JUST LISTEN and do an honest A/B comparison, you will see.


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## bafukie (Nov 23, 2007)

some ppl swear on the diff made, some ppl juz begs to differ... either *personal choice* imho...


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

bafukie said:


> some ppl swear on the diff made, some ppl juz begs to differ... either *personal choice* imho...


diff on what?


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

ANYBODY THAT BELIEVES AMPS DONT SOUND DIFFERENT HAS NO EAR. Period.


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## Andy Slater (Oct 21, 2009)

benny said:


> Im out, there's no talking sense to audiophiles.
> 
> _This sounds like more of a tuning/install issue. Seriously guys, speaker distortion and coloration is gonna be way more of an issue than amplifier "sound".
> 
> Tuning with amps and cables, whats next? _



AGREED !!
Coloration comes from speaker's and resonances.
When a amplifier starts sounding noticeably different than another amp of equal power is when you are running it into distortion or clipping. The damping factor of an amp can come into play if there are allot of speakers on the amp or typically if it is being driven below 4 ohms. Some speakers will react different to different amps because it is a resonant circuit (electrically speaking) but it should only be negligible. If a amp sounds better to you than another brand, most likely that amp just likes you impedance curve throughout the spectrum better than the other. Change the impedance at all in any way and it is a entirely different ball game now. So to definitively say an amp sounds bad and put a stamp on it is unfair unless tested in a verity of different scenarios and yield the same result. Some amps (yup even high end ones) just do miserable at some frequency's. This was really noticeable in old phoenix gold M, MPS, MS series amps with darlington devices. Same with the old Kicker ZR stuff. Same darlington devices. Sounded like a$$ between 2-4k no matter what you did. but at 8 ohms and 2 ohms they sounded just fine. ....


lol, sorry to jump in on y'all. good conversation. I like the Tacoma doors who ever those are. lets see em in vinyl. (got any more idq's layin around. i got one need a second)


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

Andy Slater said:


> AGREED !!
> Coloration comes from speaker's and resonances.
> When a amplifier starts sounding noticeably different than another amp of equal power is when you are running it into distortion or clipping. The damping factor of an amp can come into play if there are allot of speakers on the amp or typically if it is being driven below 4 ohms. Some speakers will react different to different amps because it is a resonant circuit (electrically speaking) but it should only be negligible. If a amp sounds better to you than another brand, most likely that amp just likes you impedance curve throughout the spectrum better than the other. Change the impedance at all in any way and it is a entirely different ball game now. Some amps (yup even high end ones) just do miserable at some frequency's. This was really noticeable in old phoenix gold M, MPS, MS series amps with darlington devices. Same with the old Kicker ZR stuff. Same darlington devices. Sounded like a$$ between 2-4k no matter what you did. but at 8 ohms and 2 ohms they sounded just fine. ....


WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. Did I mention you were completely wrong? You OBVIOUSLY havent A/B'd a quality amp vs an average amp. For example! I sold my ZX-450 and my tweeters are back under warranty so I wound up hooking up my ZPA to my mids only, HOLY CRAP!!! At LOW VOLUME, Im talking grandma loud, the soundstage, presence, depth and openness are all greatly improved. Im talking as soon as I turned on the ZPA on my mids, NIGHT AND DAY difference. No impedence change, no volume change (mids only, Im not cranking anything up), no speaker change, NOTHING. AMP ONLY!!! 

If you believe anything different than your ear is not developed or you havent done an honest A/B evaluation. I also want to point out MOST PEOPLE have an untrained ear. If you dont play a instrument you really have no clue what I am talking about. 

An ear takes YEARS to develop. 

If you are about to argue this point, dont, because you obviously dont play a musical instrument and you have no idea what I am talking about. I know until I picked up a guitar 12 years ago I thought I had an "ear", boy was I wrong. Music sounds soooo different, you actually hear it different than somebody that cant play. Any accomplished guitarist knows what I am talking about.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

zpaguy said:


> ANYBODY THAT BELIEVES AMPS DONT SOUND DIFFERENT HAS NO EAR. Period.


I'd rather have no ear than no brain.



[let the games begin!]


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

zpaguy said:


> ANYBODY THAT BELIEVES AMPS DONT SOUND DIFFERENT HAS NO EAR. Period.


And you know what else? 

























Yor momma


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> I'd rather have no ear than no brain.
> 
> 
> 
> [let the games begin!]



Sounds like you have both going on


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> And you know what else?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok Mr. No Ear


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## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

zpaguy said:


> WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. Did I mention you were completely wrong? You OBVIOUSLY havent A/B'd a quality amp vs an average amp. For example! I sold my ZX-450 and my tweeters are back under warranty so I wound up hooking up my ZPA to my mids only, HOLY CRAP!!! At LOW VOLUME, Im talking grandma loud, the soundstage, presence, depth and openness are all greatly improved. Im talking as soon as I turned on the ZPA on my mids, NIGHT AND DAY difference. No impedence change, no volume change (mids only, Im not cranking anything up), no speaker change, NOTHING. AMP ONLY!!!
> 
> If you believe anything different than your ear is not developed or you havent done an honest A/B evaluation. I also want to point out MOST PEOPLE have an untrained ear. If you dont play a instrument you really have no clue what I am talking about.
> 
> ...


Mark hit the nail on the head and as I have posted in another thread, these are your opinions and are not universal truths. Most humans possess the ability to hear between 20hz and 20khz but do all instruments, vocals, etc. sound the same to them all? 

You can't answer that question for anyone but yourself because you have no clue as to what I hear or anyone else hears; only what you can hear.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

sam3535 said:


> Mark hit the nail on the head and as I have posted in another thread, these are your opinions are not universal truths. Most humans possess the ability to hear between 20hz and 20khz but does it sound the same to them all?
> 
> You can't answer that question for anyone but yourself because you have no clue as to what I hear or anyone else hears; only what you can hear.



Sure I can, if I can hear a difference than I have no doubt a TRAINED EAR, like mine, will also. Just because YOU are unable to hear a difference in amps doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

And yes, it IS a universal truth, DIFFERENT AMPS SOUND DIFFERENTLY


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

zpaguy said:


> Sure I can, if I can hear a difference than I have no doubt a TRAINED EAR, like mine, will also. Just because YOU are unable to hear a difference in amps doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
> 
> And yes, it IS a universal truth, DIFFERENT AMPS SOUND DIFFERENTLY


Clearly we're in the presence of greatness.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

What's the over/under on number of posts before this guy starts typing all in caps?


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> Clearly we're in the presence of greatness.


If greatness is determined by being able to hear BLATANT differences between amplifiers, well I guess you are right.


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## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

zpaguy said:


> Sure I can, if I can hear a difference than I have no doubt a TRAINED EAR, like mine, will also. Just because YOU are unable to hear a difference in amps doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
> 
> And yes, it IS a universal truth, DIFFERENT AMPS SOUND DIFFERENTLY


If you are saying that you hear things that other people don't or can't, without objective proof of having heard it, you are the definition of insane. Literally. Paging 4thmeal.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> What's the over/under on number of posts before this guy starts typing all in caps?


You already lost the discussion, I really have no frustrations related to you and your "educated" posts. Sounds to me like you are self concious about your abilities, sorry you cant tell the difference between the way a Zapco sounds and the way a BOSS amp sounds, even at low volumes. I know I can and am willing to put my money where my mouth is if somebody in my area wants to set up a blind A/B comparison. Now go pick up a guitar, call me in 10 years and you will know what I mean. Have a nice day!


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## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

zpaguy said:


> You already lost the discussion, I really have no frustrations related to you and your "educated" posts. Sounds to me like you are self concious about your abilities, sorry you cant tell the difference between the way a Zapco sounds and the way a BOSS amp sounds, even at low volumes. I know I can and am willing to put my money where my mouth is if somebody in my area wants to set up a blind A/B comparison. Now go pick up a guitar, call me in 10 years and you will know what I mean. Have a nice day!


Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ

Start reading and collect your money.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

sam3535 said:


> If you are saying that you hear things that other people don't or can't, without objective proof of having heard it, you are the definition of insane. Literally. Paging 4thmeal.


Another non musician speaks. I said a musician hears music "differently" than a non musician. There is just no way to explain this unless you experience it firsthand. Do a little research on a "trained ear", maybe someone else will be able to explain it clearer than I can. The brain actually changes, new paths develop that dont exist if you dont play an instrument. And it takes years to get to this point.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

zpaguy said:


> You already lost the discussion, I really have no frustrations related to you and your "educated" posts. Sounds to me like you are self concious about your abilities, sorry you cant tell the difference between the way a Zapco sounds and the way a BOSS amp sounds, even at low volumes. I know I can and am willing to put my money where my mouth is if somebody in my area wants to set up a blind A/B comparison. Now go pick up a guitar, call me in 10 years and you will know what I mean. Have a nice day!


Holy ****, he can play guitar too!

It's weird. I keep hearing about people playing this thing called a guitar, but it's such a rare talent I've never actually known anyone capable of doing it. He's definitely the only one on this lowly forum that can do such a thing.

Thanks zpaguy. Stick around. We definitely need more folks like you around here!


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## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

zpaguy said:


> Another non musician speaks. I said a musician hears music "differently" than a non musician. There is just no way to explain this unless you experience it firsthand. Do a little research on a "trained ear", maybe someone else will be able to explain it clearer than I can. The brain actually changes, new paths develop that dont exist if you dont play an instrument. And it takes years to get to this point.


How in the name of Christ can you say that I'm not a musician? You literally know nothing about me. Go back to wherever you came from with your antagonistic posts and know it all attitude. Most members of this forum are here to learn from each other, not pontificate on how their background/training/knowledge makes them better than the rest. Jesus, what a troll!!!

Mark, wrap it up and leave spence part deux to his delusions!


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

sam3535 said:


> Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ
> 
> Start reading and collect your money.


Bring it on, I GUARANTEE I can tell the diff between a cheap amp and a quality one. The differences are in the stage, depth and detail. Bring it on, I know I can tell the OBVIOUS differences between a ZPA and a ZX, Im talking NIGHT AND DAY.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

sam3535 said:


> How in the name of Christ can you say that I'm not a musician? You literally know nothing about me. Go back to wherever you came from with your antagonistic posts and know it all attitude. Most members of this forum are here to learn from each other, not pontificate on how their background/training/knowledge makes them better than the rest. Jesus, what a troll!!!


Listen, NON MUSICIAN, I am providing an OPINION, you dont have to like it nor read it. Just because your ears are inferior doesnt mean mine are. I have no doubt you dont play or you would know exactly what I am talking about. Now go lay down by your dish.


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## gymrat2005 (Oct 4, 2009)

sam3535 said:


> Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ
> 
> Start reading and collect your money.


LOL...you beat me to it Sam..I was just going to link it up.

Give it a rest man. You act like we are all new to this. I don't need to play an instrument to know how to hear something. I've been at and listened to more live performances than I care to imagine. My girlfriend is a professional piano player and I hear live instruments all the time. I've also heard reference recordings on a zillion different pieces of equipment.

Are amps different? Yes, whether not the perceived difference is for better or worse is in the eye of the beholder. And theory states as long as you don't drive the amp to clipping you can negate the sonic differences by EQ'ing. I firmly believe straight out of the box there are definitely differences, but again lack of dynamics or impact can be the amp clipping, avoid that and use an eq, and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference, even with your well trained bionic, super duper, all hearing ears that are so different from the rest of ours.


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> What's the over/under on number of posts before this guy starts typing all in caps?


.......



zpaguy said:


> Bring it on, I GUARANTEE I can tell the diff between a cheap amp and a quality one. The differences are in the stage, depth and detail. Bring it on, I know I can tell the OBVIOUS differences between a ZPA and a ZX, Im talking NIGHT AND DAY.


We're getting close Mark. Doesn't appear it will be much longer now......


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

gymrat2005 said:


> LOL...you beat me to it Sam..I was just going to link it up.
> 
> Give it a rest man. You act like we are all new to this. I don't need to play an instrument to know how to hear something. I've been at and listened to more live performances than I care to imagine. My girlfriend is a professional piano player and I hear live instruments all the time. I've also heard reference recordings on a zillion different pieces of equipment.
> 
> Are amps different? Yes, whether not the perceived difference is for better or worse is in the eye of the beholder. And theory states as long as you don't drive the amp to clipping you can negate the sonic differences by EQ'ing. I firmly believe straight out of the box there are definitely differences, but again lack of dynamics or impact can be the amp clipping, avoid that and use an eq, and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference, even with your well trained bionic, super duper, all hearing ears that are so different from the rest of ours.


You proved my point, you dont play and cant tell the differences. If you dont think channel seperation, slew rate, materials used, etc make AUDIBLE differences then you are nuts. No EQing in the world will make a cheap amp sound like a quality one. I do have exceptional hearing, yes, does it make you feel better to act like a child with your comments?


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## gymrat2005 (Oct 4, 2009)

zpaguy said:


> does it make you feel better to act like a child with your comments?


:laugh: :laugh:



This is by far the best thread we've had in quite a while


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

I'm actually in Eau Claire, WI now, zpaguy. I'm here on business.

Let's have an amp test. I'll bring a Zapco and a Sony and we'll see if you can tell the difference. There's an abandoned warehouse on the corner of Grand and Barstow. We'll bet $100. Show up tomorrow night around 10 o'clock. I'll be there. So I know it's you, yell "I'm here with the money!" over and over and then I'll come out.

Deal?


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

AMATEUR


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## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

zpaguy said:


> AMATEUR


SEVEN posts to all caps!! One word responses and no punctuation; the old blood pressure is up!!


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> I'm actually in Eau Claire, WI now, zpaguy. I'm here on business.
> 
> Let's have an amp test. I'll bring a Zapco and a Sony and we'll see if you can tell the difference. There's an abandoned warehouse on the corner of Grand and Barstow. We'll bet $100. Show up tomorrow night around 10 o'clock. I'll be there. So I know it's you, yell "I'm here with the money!" over and over and then I'll come out.
> 
> Deal?


You in town? Really? Call me, I will pm you my number. I will be glad to do this, ten is a little late on a sunday, lets get together a little earlier. Say 5:00? Warehouse? Trying to picture it. Just meet me at the McDonalds on water st at 5:00, that work?


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

sam3535 said:


> SEVEN posts to all caps!! One word responses and no punctuation; the old blood pressure is up!!


Naw, just messing with dude


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

sam3535 said:


> SEVEN posts to all caps!! One word responses and no punctuation; the old blood pressure is up!!


Check the board! Who had 7?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

zpaguy said:


> You in town? Really? Call me, I will pm you my number. I will be glad to do this, ten is a little late on a sunday, lets get together a little earlier. Say 5:00? Warehouse? Trying to picture it. Just meet me at the McDonalds on water st at 5:00, that work?


Fine. I'll be there. Don't be late.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> I'm actually in Eau Claire, WI now, zpaguy. I'm here on business.
> 
> Let's have an amp test. I'll bring a Zapco and a Sony and we'll see if you can tell the difference. There's an abandoned warehouse on the corner of Grand and Barstow. We'll bet $100. Show up tomorrow night around 10 o'clock. I'll be there. So I know it's you, yell "I'm here with the money!" over and over and then I'll come out.
> 
> Deal?


PM sent with phone number, $100 in my pocket. Whats the plan?


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> Fine. I'll be there. Don't be late.


Sweeeeet! Im actually pumped for the challenge. Call me if you cant make it, see you then!


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> Fine. I'll be there. Don't be late.


Lets make it 4:00 so we have a little daylight Mark... that work??


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

zpaguy said:


> PM sent with phone number, $100 in my pocket. Whats the plan?


I gotta head to grandma's house at like 3:30. She needs help giving her poodle a bath. But I'll be out by 5. We'll meet up at the McDonald's. If it's crowded, go into the bathroom and wait in a stall. When I come in, tap your foot so I know it's you.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> I gotta head to grandma's house at like 3:30. She needs help giving her poodle a bath. But I'll be out by 5. We'll meet up at the McDonald's. If it's crowded, go into the bathroom and wait in a stall. When I come in, tap your foot so I know it's you.


Thats what I thought, a bunch of BS on your part.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

What are you talking about? I'll be there. I swear.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

I even have it set up in my car where we can hook up two amps to power/ground/remote and you can then change the RCA and speaker wire between amps to test me.


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## Andy Slater (Oct 21, 2009)

OOH CRAP< I JUST ABOUT POOED MYSELF> that looks like a amp i defiantly want to try out. OOH Boy.
I bet this on horns would be a great test for this one. I may have to keep my eye out for one for sale.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> What are you talking about? I'll be there. I swear.


Lets hook up earlier in the day then, 11:00 say....


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

It really would be fun to do this


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Nope. 5 o'clock or it's off. Don't back out.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> Nope. 5 o'clock or it's off. Don't back out.


Ah, so its your way or the highway? I am not giving up time with my kids for tomfoolery with you. I am available from 9 am to 4 pm sunday, give me a time in that range.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Just as I thought. Chicken.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> Just as I thought. Chicken.


It sure appears you are... 

If you happen to really be in town, sweet,name a time in the seven hours I have available tomorrow! But I dont believe you are in town or you would find a time that works. So name a time, put your money where your mouth is or just shut up Mr. No Ear....


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## SCtud (Oct 16, 2009)

YOU CAN DO IT!


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

SCtud said:


> YOU CAN DO IT!


I know I can, but will Mark name a time and actually show up? I doubt it very much.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

I can't believe you're backing out after all the smack you were talking. I'll be at the McDonald's on Water St at 5pm sharp. I'll have the Zapco and the Sony. I'll be the one driving the pink Eldorado. Let's get this on!


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> I can't believe you're backing out after all the smack you were talking. I'll be at the McDonald's on Water St at 5pm sharp. I'll have the Zapco and the Sony. I'll be the one driving the pink Eldorado. Let's get this on!


Once again, pick a time between 9 and 4 or just lay down by your amateur, non hearing dish.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

But you're the one who said 5pm first. Now you're changing it after I told you about grandma and the bath at 3:30? Sounds to me like you're backing out.


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## Andy Slater (Oct 21, 2009)

zpaguy said:


> WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. Did I mention you were completely wrong? You OBVIOUSLY havent A/B'd a quality amp vs an average amp. For example! I sold my ZX-450 and my tweeters are back under warranty so I wound up hooking up my ZPA to my mids only, HOLY CRAP!!! At LOW VOLUME, Im talking grandma loud, the soundstage, presence, depth and openness are all greatly improved. Im talking as soon as I turned on the ZPA on my mids, NIGHT AND DAY difference. No impedence change, no volume change (mids only, Im not cranking anything up), no speaker change, NOTHING. AMP ONLY!!!
> 
> If you believe anything different than your ear is not developed or you havent done an honest A/B evaluation. I also want to point out MOST PEOPLE have an untrained ear. If you dont play a instrument you really have no clue what I am talking about.
> 
> ...


DUDE ARE YOU SERIOUS!! I WOW. THANK YOU FOR CORRECTING ME> ooh your a musician also.....sweet.........(gulp.....gulp.....) thats awesome for you. Sweet. me play instruments........ anyway, I got to go to bed......(YAWHHHHN). Good night guys.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

MarkZ said:


> But you're the one who said 5pm first. Now you're changing it after I told you about grandma and the bath at 3:30? Sounds to me like you're backing out.


This is my last post on this subject. I have pmd you my personal cell number, if you are available between the specified hours, great. If not then take your bs elsewhere. Backing out? Nooooo, I called my ex to find out what time I get the kids, she will be here by six and I am not going to be late because of this bs. I WILL win that bet. And by the way, NO, we are not using the Zapco. We will A/B the sony against my ZPA, I am not pulling all my ZPA stuff to hook up another amp. However my runs from my ZX are just sitting there waiting for your Sony you just happen to have along from NY. Right. Now take your bs elsewhere and go fornicate yourself!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

I knew it. Your ex-wife is in on this too. She just made up that time because she knew you'd lose that $100, which means less alimony for her.

I'll be there at 5 with my Sony. You better show up.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

Andy Slater said:


> DUDE ARE YOU SERIOUS!! I WOW. THANK YOU FOR CORRECTING ME> ooh your a musician also.....sweet.........(gulp.....gulp.....) thats awesome for you. Sweet. me play instruments........ anyway, I got to go to bed......(YAWHHHHN). Good night guys.


Jealousy is a *****...


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ



> Does this mean all amps sound the same in a normal install?
> 
> No. Richard Clark is *very careful to say that amps usually do not sound the same in the real world.*



Well, what a great test his amplifier challenge is then?


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## DaleCarter (Jan 3, 2008)

sam3535 said:


> Most humans possess the ability to hear between 20hz and 20khz



At birth, amybe, but not after years (decades?) of exposure to noise.



BTW, the musician argument FAILS. I am a guitarist, drummer and bassist for the last 33 years AND I actually own test gear an dknow how to use it. There is no difference between quality amps.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Haven't read all the "firing missiles" posts however I have 2 things to ask to people that believe all amp CAN sound the same with proper EQ adjustments (Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ) 

*First:* Why don't you guyz buy the most powerful Pyle or Boss amp you can afford to run your system and EQ it to sound like, let's say a Tru Billet or a Sinfoni? It will be much cheaper than anything you run... 
I can see people believing that all amp can be tailored to sound the same even though they run some Soundstream Class A, Tru Billets, Zuki, Zapco C2K, Audison VRx and the likes. 

*Then my next question is:* Why are we spending that much time on a forum if all amps sounded the same? Are we all dumb? 

That goes beyond my understanding... 

*OK,* I might not distinguish the two amps in the challenge 10 times out of 10, however, I know that if I had total control over the volume (without clipping the amp), I'll be able to tell the difference in presence, impact, dynamism, decay, etc... 

Don't get me wrong, I know that speaker choices, install, tuning and blah blah blah will have more impact on the sound. 


Sorry for the thread jack but I had to say something 
Kelvin 

PS: I have a lot of respect for people that put an effort to explain things so that other people can understand and learn from it - but I just hate people that BELIEVE something just because someone said it


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

DaleCarter said:


> At birth, amybe, but not after years (decades?) of exposure to noise.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, the musician argument FAILS. I am a guitarist, drummer and bassist for the last 33 years AND I actually own test gear an dknow how to use it. There is no difference between quality amps.


EXACTLY. "Quality" Being the key word. I have no doubt I couldnt tell the diff between a Zapco C2K and a Phoenix Gold ZPA, however I know I can tell the diff between either of those amps and a lower build amp. 

The musician argument fails? You cant tell the diff because you have been playing your entire life. I picked up a guitar at 28 years old, and without a doubt that led to the development of my ear.


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## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

zpaguy said:


> EXACTLY. "Quality" Being the key word. I have no doubt I couldnt tell the diff between a Zapco C2K and a Phoenix Gold ZPA, however I know I can tell the diff between either of those amps and a lower build amp. *Yesterday your argument was that you can tell the difference between any amp in an A/B comparison. Now it's no difference between "quality" amps. What will your story be tomorrow?*
> 
> The musician argument fails? You cant tell the diff because you have been playing your entire life. I picked up a guitar at 28 years old, and without a doubt that led to the development of my ear. *And again your story changes. Yesterday it was musicians can tell the difference between amps because they have developed their "ear". Now it's newer musicians can tell the difference but not long time musicians can't?*


AWESOME!! It appears that your opinion changes on most topics to whichever way the wind is currently blowing. ca.com is calling your name. Good day and good riddance.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

sam3535 said:


> AWESOME!! It appears that your opinion changes on most topics to whichever way the wind is currently blowing. ca.com is calling your name. Good day and good riddance.


Your kidding me, right? Its not remotely possible I am right. How would you know? I was invlolved in audio for 12 years before picking up a guitar, I am telling you, learning an instrument changes the way you hear music! As far as changing my story? Are you insane? I didnt change any opinion, it was a simple fact the man that has been playing for 33 years probably has a great ear and always has. How in the world would he know anything different? But hey, freak out if you want, immature nobody.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

And I am not saying that learning an instrument is the only way to get there (a developed ear), I just know what it did for me. I also played in a band for six years (four rhythm, two lead) all while running sound from stage, so that probably helped also. The bottom line for me is when people say there is no sonic diff between a Zapco and a Sony because they cant hear it, well, they just dont have an ear.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

And I am unsubscribing from this thread, sorry to step on your skirts, I have had enough,LOL! Have a nice day!


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## lacruisin (Apr 29, 2008)

Since this is a thread about how good are Tru amps I thought I'd put my 2-cents in.

I bought a Tru B2110 (upgraded to latest version free of charge by the good people at TRU) and it sounded a bit bright and flat at first. I'm sure I messed with the preamp on/off switch, but I remember the problem didn't go away until I installed a Linear Power preamp. The sound then opened up very nicely and everything fell into place to where I can say I really appreciate what a fine amp it is. It is quite a high fidelity unit. So my suggestion to anyone who's tried a Billet and thought it was wanting in terms of fidelity would be to try a preamp of some sort (maybe an SSLD6) and see if that helps. The claimed output of 5V from my Eclipse CD5000 just wasn't doing it.

As far as the debate goes, everyone wants to show how smart they are. Some people are sure that science and numbers are the last word in audio. A lot of these people don't seem to know anywhere near the full scientific story about what they're talking about besides the fact that such a belief shows a poor understanding of both scientific theory and applied engineering. Science can be a great help and can be rather sophisticated, but experience is the best teacher and success is the last word in any endeavor. I say, you'll know you're smart when you get your system to sound exactly the way you want it to. For me that's hearing every last nuance in hidden vocals and other details that I didn't even know were there until I really started to pursue high fidelity. When I sort out every sound into a clear and distinct instrument (as good as what's on the recording) while playing as loud as I feel like, then I think I'll be a happy camper.


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

subwoofery said:


> *First:* Why don't you guyz buy the most powerful Pyle or Boss amp you can afford to run your system and EQ it to sound like, let's say a Tru Billet or a Sinfoni? It will be much cheaper than anything you run...


This line of argument simply demonstrates that you don't understand the discussion. 

Why would you presume that I have no motivation to purchase an amplifier based on factors _other than_ sonic characteristics? There are plenty of factors to take into consideration; quality of the parts and construction of the amplifier, aesthetics, features, size, etc. It'd be pretty idiotic to assume that just because I don't purchase an amplifier based on sonic attributes I want to purchase low end junk that runs a higher chance of failure, are typically hideous in appearance, typically lack quality features and has a lower standard of construction and parts quality. 

Apply that line of reasoning to other products; socks for example. Just because I don't _feel_ a difference between the $7 socks and the $1 socks when wearing them doesn't mean I automatically purchase the cheapest option. What if the $1 socks wear out after 1 month but the $7 socks last a year? $7 once a year is cheaper than $1 every month.

Lastly, I don't believe anyone is naive enough to say that it's impossible for two amplifiers to sound different. I however like to think, correctly or incorrectly, that I understand what _could_ cause two amplifiers to sound different. And though I've not seen any recent test reports of Boss and Pyle amplifiers, I have a biased inclination to believe they would not operate with inaudible levels of distortion up to advertised power levels and is another one of the reasons I would not purchase them.



> *Then my next question is:* Why are we spending that much time on a forum if all amps sounded the same? Are we all dumb?
> 
> That goes beyond my understanding...


I guess I don't understand the question. The forum discusses much more than amplifiers...which is why most people are here, discussing other various aspects of this hobby. Why do people spend so much time on an internet forum specifically discussing amplifier sonics _is_ beyond my comprehension....I don't know if I'd label people dumb, misinformed may be a better word  I guess it's the same reason people continue to discuss the sound quality of cables and other various topics that don't really make much sense.



> but I just hate people that BELIEVE something just because someone said it


Good, because I don't believe most people hear what they claim to be able to hear just because they say they can  So we're on the same page here.


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## SCtud (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm shocked that the Richard Clark amp test hasn't had the hundreds of self-described audiophiles out there trying to debunk it. Considering how many audiophiles say how "warm" tube amps are or how bad class D amps are (both of which qualify), shouldn't an expert be able to tell the difference?


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

SCtud said:


> I'm shocked that the Richard Clark amp test hasn't had the hundreds of self-described audiophiles out there trying to debunk it. Considering how many audiophiles say how "warm" tube amps are or how bad class D amps are (both of which qualify), shouldn't an expert be able to tell the difference?


The test procedure itself seem to have its own issues?



> *# Richard Clark has a strong opinion on this issue and therefore might bias his reports.*
> 
> # In the real world people use amps in the clipping zone, and the test does not cover that situation.
> 
> ...


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

subwoofery said:


> Haven't read all the "firing missiles" posts however I have 2 things to ask to people that believe all amp CAN sound the same with proper EQ adjustments (Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ)
> 
> *First:* Why don't you guyz buy the most powerful Pyle or Boss amp you can afford to run your system and EQ it to sound like, let's say a Tru Billet or a Sinfoni? It will be much cheaper than anything you run...
> I can see people believing that all amp can be tailored to sound the same even though they run some Soundstream Class A, Tru Billets, Zuki, Zapco C2K, Audison VRx and the likes.
> ...


Subwoofery, the questions you've asked have been answered in this forum time and time again. It's time for the monthly amp debate. I *thought* I diffused it this time, but you brought it back to life. Good going.


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## gymrat2005 (Oct 4, 2009)

I'll try to put this into a basic analogy. It may seem a little off base, but here goes:

Imagine you are alone on a salt flat with a bunch of different vehicles ranging from Yugos, to say Lamborghini's. If you were to idle along at 2 miles an hour there would be very little difference in the vehicles driven because you are really not asking much from them. They're going too slow to induce any wind noise, there are also no handling issues at this speed, etc... But step on the throttle (crank the volume), and the world starts to change. Suddenly the Yugo starts to shake and becomes unmanageable at certain speeds, and the noise from the wind coming through the doors and windows sounds like a typhoon. Where the Porsche's, Ferrari's, etc... performance characteristics remain quite steady, and the cars interior is still very quiet and are very pleasant to drive.

So again, it's not what the amp does when it's turned on and has music played through it, it's what the amp does and how it behaves when taken through it's paces. No one is saying that a Kraco EQ/Power booster performs the same as a Tru-B8s does. But when you compare apples to apples (Ferrari to Lamborghini, Porsche to Audi....Sinfoni to Brax, Zapco to Arc Audio ), they are all very similar, and in fact with the right tuning become almost impossible to distinguish between them. At that point it's all a matter of personal taste.

hope I didn't offend any Yugo or Kraco fans


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## SCtud (Oct 16, 2009)

Let's throw another wrench into this - what's the point of Burr Brown/Analog Devices opamps that change the sound of an amplifier? Considering the cost to upgrade on the Tru amps to different opamps is not insignificant, is this going to be nearly impossible to hear a difference? 

Op-Amp review page

Is this link full of it?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

SCtud said:


> Let's throw another wrench into this - what's the point of Burr Brown/Analog Devices opamps that change the sound of an amplifier? Considering the cost to upgrade on the Tru amps to different opamps is not insignificant, is this going to be nearly impossible to hear a difference?
> 
> Op-Amp review page
> 
> Is this link full of it?


:X

Worst.
http://www.national.com/ds/LF/LF353.pdf

Best.
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa627.pdf


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## gymrat2005 (Oct 4, 2009)

I think my TRU uses the BB OPA2134


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## Andy Slater (Oct 21, 2009)

zpaguy said:


> Jealousy is a *****...


That's classy.


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## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

such a shame that MarkZ and zpaguy did not get together.... I think the results discussion would have been more fun than the warmup.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

I showed up at the McDonald's with my Sony in my pink Eldorado. ****er wasn't there. I'm pissed.


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## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

Thanks for holding up your side.



zpaguy said:


> You in town? Really? Call me, I will pm you my number. I will be glad to do this, ten is a little late on a sunday, lets get together a little earlier. Say 5:00? Warehouse? Trying to picture it. Just meet me at the McDonalds on water st at 5:00, that work?


And it was his idea to meet there.

Maybe you can find another musician to take the challenge.


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## bigabe (May 1, 2007)

After reading this whole thread...

My only question is... what does being an amateur guitar player have to do with "developing you ear"??

I'm a professional musician, as well as a mixing engineer, and neither of those things have "trained my ear". What has trained my ear is years and years of listening to countless musical performances, and making minute track by track adjustments. And even with that, I don't consider my ear "well trained".

BTW - I think Tru tech amps are awesome! Very, VERY well built, reliable, and very good looking. Quite expensive yes, but you get what you pay for.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

lol..i really wanted to see how this turned out. and im afraid to give my opinion lol


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## HK_M3 (Sep 12, 2009)

I'm not a huge fan of Tru....they have power but they lack finesse...


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## gymrat2005 (Oct 4, 2009)

oh dear god :dead_horse:


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

HK_M3 said:


> I'm not a huge fan of Tru....they have power but they lack finesse...


Exactly what kind of finesse are u looking for?


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

gymrat2005 said:


> oh dear god :dead_horse:


:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

We need more threads like this. zpaguy is my new favorite member...because he is so full of ****!

I love it. 

Yes, markz's pink Eldorado is set up for amp challenges. I know, I've seen it before.


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## HK_M3 (Sep 12, 2009)

I loved the Tru T-03's for their serious bass but the highs sounded very mechanical. This coming from a guy that doesn't believe there is a difference in SQ between watts. Mr. Marv heard the same thing if I'm not mistaken. Very gnarly high end.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

HK_M3 said:


> I loved the Tru T-03's for their serious bass but the highs sounded very mechanical. This coming from a guy that doesn't believe there is a difference in SQ between watts. Mr. Marv heard the same thing if I'm not mistaken. Very gnarly high end.



And exactly how did you come to the conclusion that this was the amp, and not the speakers/gain setting/eq/deck/positioning/placement?


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

HK_M3 said:


> I loved the Tru T-03's for their serious bass but the highs sounded very mechanical. This coming from a guy that doesn't believe there is a difference in SQ between watts. Mr. Marv heard the same thing if I'm not mistaken. Very gnarly high end.


It is entirely possible that the Tru amps are not competently designed. The places one is most likely to see worthless junk in audio are at the extreme low end and at the boutique "high end." The low end stuff can be junk because cost cutting hurts performance at a point. The boutique stuff can be junk because its "designers" just don't know anything except how to market an expensive bauble with varying degrees of success and hoodwink so-called golden ears.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> It is entirely possible that the Tru amps are not competently designed. The places one is most likely to see worthless junk in audio are at the extreme low end and at the boutique "high end." The low end stuff can be junk because cost cutting hurts performance at a point. The boutique stuff can be junk because its "designers" just don't know anything except how to market an expensive bauble with varying degrees of success and hoodwink so-called golden ears.



Anyone can build a faulty product, just look at Toyota's recalls. 

The likelihood of this, with the amount of problem free TRU product in the hands of experienced users, is probably nil. 

I know DS-21 has a hard on for bashing expensive "boutique" equipment though. Some people just have it in their agenda to prove that they know more than "everyone else".


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## HK_M3 (Sep 12, 2009)

WRX/Z28 said:


> And exactly how did you come to the conclusion that this was the amp, and not the speakers/gain setting/eq/deck/positioning/placement?



I can't be 100% sure. I had a Dynaudio System 360 running full range with an Eclipse 8053. I ran all amps with the xover off and set the gains according to a test CD at -3db reference. I tested the JL 300/2, DLS A3, Brax X2000 & Tru T03 2.250. 

-Nate


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Anyone can build a faulty product, just look at Toyota's recalls.


Did toyota have a recall on their stereo equipement?


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

AAAAAAA said:


> Did toyota have a recall on their stereo equipement?


No....But they should have.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

love mine  my super billet is pretty much stock and its the best amp ive ever heard. points of reference ppi art series, xtants, JL slash series, JL HD series. Only thing i really dont like about it is the size and the fact that it can be modded lol. More money I dont need to spend right now. I found the PPI are series to be really BALSY, xtants very musical, slashs were good, HDs were very very good as well. billets seems to have the best from all those amps. the to3 is old too, im sure the technology is much better on the newer ones.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> The likelihood of this, with the amount of problem free TRU product in the hands of experienced users, is probably nil.


Interesting reply, in that you were not capable of correctly comprehending my post. An amp can be both "incompetently designed" (nonflat FR, poor noise rejection, etc.) and "problem free," (no failures) of course.

Also, I like expensive equipment that clearly adds value compared to cheaper equipment. I have a clear preference for it. I'm relatively price-insensitive, but highly value conscious. However, how _any_ large class AB car amp can add value relative to another, once a certain standard of build quality is met - and from the Trus I've seen, they have nothing on, say, a Jello Slash in that regard - is besides me.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

The beauty behind the TRU amps, not just the huge power supplies, drop dead exterior, amazing sound quality is also the ability to mod and change the amp over time. it can be catered to different peoples wants and needs from different pre amps, to no amps, to op amps, kemble kables and even custom colored exteriors to a certain degree. While they are pricey it truly can be an amp owned for life and still be different over time.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Those sorts of "mods" don't seem very appealing, IMO. Cables, op amps, etc. Just do it right the first time and you shouldn't have to mod it! 

A better mod would be one that allows you to accommodate certain install requirements in one case, and then other requirements in another case. For example, a high voltage / high current switch (even if it's a hardwired "mod").

Also, there are some home amps that have mods available online that actually do something useful. I saw one site where you could send your amp out (certain amps) and they would upgrade some circuits for you for better protection circuitry, stability, and to attain lower noise and distortion specs. Not that I'm gonna send my amp to the guy, but at least those are worthwhile mods. I did "mod" the amp in question by installing a higher current triac though and replaced some of the electrolytics. If you can get your hands on service manuals, oftentimes you'll find that the manufacturer suggests "mods" that fix bugs in the design.

The mods that tru offers seem to be just the gimmicky ones.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

mark1478 said:


> The beauty behind the TRU amps, not just the huge power supplies, drop dead exterior, amazing sound quality is also the ability to mod and change the amp over time. it can be catered to different peoples wants and needs from different pre amps, to no amps, to op amps, kemble kables and even custom colored exteriors to a certain degree. While they are pricey it truly can be an amp owned for life and still be different over time.


The color changes I can see as legitimately adding some aesthetic value for some people, though anyone can take any amp case and powdercoat it a different color for a price. I've seen plenty of old PPI Art Series with custom color schemes, for instance.

All the other things you mention are either meaningless or indicative of someone just cobbling together brand-name parts for their propaganda value. Typical of idiot boutique audio, they want to maximize "audiophool approved" brand name parts without any regard for design as a system.

And what person of moron-level or above IQ would think that "modding" the ****ing wires in an amp to wires of a different brand is going to do a goddamn thing? Even Trig Palin has more common sense than that!


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

im not too schooled on what is offered by tru in terms of modding, but i like the idea that you can use different opamps to change the sound of the amps. my six is running 2 channels tweets, 2 channels, mids, 2 channels, midbass. the way I run my amp may be different than someone that is running it two way active or passive plus subwoofer. i like that it can be adaptable that way. as soon as i start figuring it all out i will def be changing things around to maximize the possibilites of each speaker.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

mark1478 said:


> im not too schooled on what is offered by tru in terms of modding, but i like the idea that you can use different opamps to change the sound of the amps.


Unless the design is really flawed or one of the op-amps is broken, swapping out op-amps isn't going to change the "sound" of the amp.

A competently designed amp *does not have a "sound."* _If_ a given Tru amp does have a "sound" that one can reliably detect in blind level-matched listening, then it is a non-high-fidelity, incompetently designed device. I personally prefer high fidelity over incompetent design. I certainly could not pay a premium for incompetence.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> The color changes I can see as legitimately adding some aesthetic value for some people, though anyone can take any amp case and powdercoat it a different color for a price. I've seen plenty of old PPI Art Series with custom color schemes, for instance.
> 
> All the other things you mention are either meaningless or indicative of someone just cobbling together brand-name parts for their propaganda value. Typical of idiot boutique audio, they want to maximize "audiophool approved" brand name parts without any regard for design as a system.
> 
> And what person of moron-level or above IQ would think that "modding" the ****ing wires in an amp to wires of a different brand is going to do a goddamn thing? Even Trig Palin has more common sense than that!



and im not sure why your bashing me like that. its just an opinion of mine, some people agree with it or disagree with it. its only car audio, no reason to call me a moron.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

mark1478 said:


> im not too schooled on what is offered by tru in terms of modding, but i like the idea that you can use different opamps to change the sound of the amps. my six is running 2 channels tweets, 2 channels, mids, 2 channels, midbass. the way I run my amp may be different than someone that is running it two way active or passive plus subwoofer. i like that it can be adaptable that way. as soon as i start figuring it all out i will def be changing things around to maximize the possibilites of each speaker.


I don't really understand why anyone laying out that kind of cash for an amp would even want ANY op amp. They should offer the thing with a digital input. Otherwise, it's sort of pointless to demand clean signal at the preamp stage after it's gone through one or two unnecessary buffer stages.

It should go digital source -> DAC -> op amp as part of the input stage. The DAC and op amp should be INSIDE the amp. Otherwise, you need more than one op amp in series (the op amp is necessary because you need to lowpass the output of most DACs). You'd also minimize noise issues by keeping everything on the same power supply inside.

Get what I'm saying? One mid-level op amp will probably produce less distortion than two or three "high end" op amps in series, and certainly less potential for ground loops if they're sharing the same supply and chassis.

I'll take the manufacturers who go this route before I'd take the swappable op amp feature.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

im not too sure, but doesnt mcintosh offer swappable pre amp cards and op amps? and please dont call me a moron lol. its only car audio.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

mark1478 said:


> im not too sure, but doesnt mcintosh offer swappable pre amp cards and op amps? and please dont call me a moron lol. its only car audio.


No. McIntosh offers a _parametric EQ_ module, which is quite different from what you're suggesting.

McIntosh is far too sophisticated and intelligent a company to let stupid audiophools force them to play the "let's load up the most brand-name boutique parts in our amp so we can brag about using them" game.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> No. McIntosh offers a _parametric EQ_ module, which is quite different from what you're suggesting.
> 
> McIntosh is far too sophisticated and intelligent a company to let stupid audiophools force them to play the "let's load up the most brand-name boutique parts in our amp so we can brag about using them" game.


I do have to question, it seems like you are a person the goes by specs only and renders opinions about products you never use? Then you bash other people for having a different opinion as you. Is our intelligence inferior to yours or are you just a "bully" who like to think they are smarter than everyone else for the sole purpose of making for some other inadequacy in your life? You don't run this forum and do not have the right to call names and and put people down for their opinions. I love how people who hear things that aren't on paper are "wrong" for their opinion. You sound like someone who deals in absolutes and never questions anything for yourself. Let me give you a hint, nobody is perfect, nobody knows everything, and sir, you fall in the same category as the rest of us....deal with it!


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

I will say _why_ I would never use a product, yes. Without pulling any punches. I will also say why I chose something for a given application, what led me to that choice, and what the results were.

And I don't deal in "absolutes" so much as I deal in _science._ I also am in one of those periodic phases where the rank idiocy and ignorance of superstitious audiophools who don't understand anything of the science/engineering of audio has me annoyed, so I'm commenting accordingly.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> I will say _why_ I would never use a product, yes. Without pulling any punches. I will also say why I chose something for a given application, what led me to that choice, and what the results were.
> 
> And I don't deal in "absolutes" so much as I deal in _science._ I also am in one of those periodic phases where the rank idiocy and ignorance of superstitious audiophools who don't understand anything of the science/engineering of audio has me annoyed, so I'm commenting accordingly.


i understand you want to express your opinion on a subject matter, however I think you could have done so without calling people stupid or audiophools.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> I will say _why_ I would never use a product, yes. Without pulling any punches. I will also say why I chose something for a given application, what led me to that choice, and what the results were.
> 
> And I don't deal in "absolutes" so much as I deal in _science._ I also am in one of those periodic phases where the rank idiocy and ignorance of superstitious audiophools who don't understand anything of the science/engineering of audio has me annoyed, so I'm commenting accordingly.


You call us idiots for believing what we hear and I call you one for believing in only the specs on a sheet of paper. You say you don't deal in absolutes, but it seems to me you deal in the absolutes of a spec sheet. And you are also saying my belief as an audiophile is similar to the phrase "religion is the opiate of the masses". I have heard the differences you are saying don't exist and will stand by what I have heard. With that said, you are so certain of your absolutes, I bet you have never even given the thought to test your belief. 

I don't care if you agree or disagree with what I think. I only care that you treat people with respect and stop the childish name calling and knock off the superiority complex you seem to have.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

If people are ignorant of the settled science as regards concepts such as amp "sound," and persist in spreading superstition, then they *are* stupid. Sorry, I don't see any need to kiss up to stupidity, or tiptoe over the hurt feelings of audiophools.


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## SCtud (Oct 16, 2009)

curious as to what amp you use DS-21, and please justify why.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> If people are ignorant of the settled science as regards concepts such as amp "sound," and persist in spreading superstition, then they *are* stupid. Sorry, I don't see any need to kiss up to stupidity, or tiptoe over the hurt feelings of audiophools.


I apologize that my pocket protector, ears, ecto plasmic spectrum analzyer, textbook on car audio is not a as big as yours.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Alright guys, enough. Try to get back on topic would you?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Old thread that got bumped. I don't think the OP needs it anymore.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

MarkZ said:


> Old thread that got bumped. I don't think the OP needs it anymore.


Doesn't mean that server space needs to be taken up with this pointless arguing.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

my apologies, I just dont apreciate being called dumb over and over again because i believe something different. back to topic..tru amps are very very very nice


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

mark1478 said:


> my apologies, I just dont apreciate being called dumb over and over again because i believe something different. back to topic..tru amps are very very very nice


His point, I think, is that the discussion shouldn't be about "belief". What you believe and what he believes is mostly irrelevant. It's about the logic. 

He hasn't really hashed out his argument HERE, so I can definitely see why you're frustrated with his response, but he has in other threads. You're just late to the party.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

Very late lol. I dont wanna play in his party anymore, i bet there are no chics there


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Interesting reply, in that you were not capable of correctly comprehending my post. An amp can be both "incompetently designed" (nonflat FR, poor noise rejection, etc.) and "problem free," (no failures) of course.
> .


Leave it to you to incompetently comprehend my post, and pull a "pot calling the kettle black"

Stating that the amp is "problem free" was not simply stating that it was operational, but that it had not exhibited any of the described symptoms for anyone else who run's them on this forum, including "(nonflat FR, poor noise rejection, etc)". 

Is that a bit clearer?



DS-21 said:


> Also, I like expensive equipment that clearly adds value compared to cheaper equipment. I have a clear preference for it. I'm relatively price-insensitive, but highly value conscious. However, how any large class AB car amp can add value relative to another, once a certain standard of build quality is met - and from the Trus I've seen, they have nothing on, say, a Jello Slash in that regard - is besides me.


The TRU's seem to lack the daughter board problems that the Jello's have. Keep in mind, build quality has changed a bit since the original Korean made V1's were available. The new V2's are made in china. Might be nothing, could be everything...


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

SCtud said:


> curious as to what amp you use DS-21, and please justify why.


I use a Ubuy mini amp for my widebanders - elfAudio 2125X, which is the same internally as an Arc Mini 125.2, but has more heatsinking due to the wider rounded fins - because it's small enough to hide, adequately powerful, and efficient enough to fit where I wanted to put it without overheating. It also costs much less than the Arc-badged Ubuy amp on the market today. (I would have preferred a class D amp, but I could not find one sufficiently narrow.) Midbasses get power from an Eclipse EA4200 bridged, because it's an efficient class-D amp that fit where I wanted to put it, has more than enough power for the task, runs cool, and has outstanding build quality for what I paid for it. Sub amp is an Eclipse XA1200, because it is an efficient class D (icepower) amp that was small enough to fit where I had space, has adequate power, and outstanding build quality for the price I paid.

Notice how idiotic concerns such as "sound" were not a priority. Size, output, efficiency, price, and build quality were. Since all my amps are hidden, I didn't care what they looked like, either, so long as they fit and were cool-running. If I did care what my amps looked like, I'd probably look for a dead big McIntosh, and stuff it with cheap class D amps! 



mark1478 said:


> my apologies, I just dont apreciate being called dumb over and over again because i believe something different. back to topic..tru amps are very very very nice


It's not a matter of "belief." It is science v. superstition. I suppose you also "believe" that the earth is flat and only 6000 years old...

And sorry, but in my view somebody who elevates something as banal as an audio gain block to the level of a religion is, yes, quite dumb. Utterly lacking in the basic reasoning faculties one would expect in a sane adult.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> The TRU's seem to lack the daughter board problems that the Jello's have. Keep in mind, build quality has changed a bit since the original Korean made V1's were available. The new V2's are made in china. Might be nothing, could be everything...


Do you have any evidence to that effect? The only quality issues of which I know on the Jello slashes is that the very first (Korean) run used set screws that were too soft. But admittedly the ones I've seen and used have all been v1's.

I know it's fashionable to bash China, but in truth there's usually little to nothing substantial behind the bashing.


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## gymrat2005 (Oct 4, 2009)

Well, I've had the opportunity to sit down and talk shop with Jon from Tru over dinner, and he is an amazingly smart man, and has a passion for the audio business not normally seen from an amp "manufacturer" where the bottom line is not his top priority. His upgrades go far beyond wire and op amps, and he can and will customize almost any aspect of the amplifier you desire. High current, high voltage, no preamp, whatever. Bottom line this thread asks "How good are TRU Technology amps", and I can say they are damn good..one of the best I've ever owned.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

gymrat2005 said:


> His upgrades go far beyond wire and op amps, and he can and will customize almost any aspect of the amplifier you desire.


Now _that's_ cool.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Do you have any evidence to that effect? The only quality issues of which I know on the Jello slashes is that the very first (Korean) run used set screws that were too soft. But admittedly the ones I've seen and used have all been v1's.
> 
> I know it's fashionable to bash China, but in truth there's usually little to nothing substantial behind the bashing.


dB-r Electronics Forums - JL Audio 1000/1 (all slash series amps) repair tip

There's your proof. 


I'm not sure who went and assigned you the task of being the all knowing self righteous DIYMA amp merrit dictator, but they should probably be shot. 

You are nothing but a pomous know it all with a hard on for finding threads where someone says "I like these amps a lot" and butting in with your ego to tell the peon's that they're morons for thinking amps have any "sound". 

Last I checked, amps make sound (in conjunction with speakers of course, just wanted to get that out there before you correct me). It's been widely regarded by people who are not morons, that amps do make a difference in sound. Even RC admitted he believed so before his "test", and i'd say he's far from a moron. You even went and admitted as much by stating that TRU's amps might have that sound due to either a defect, or being poorly designed. 

You can't have it both ways bud. It's amazing the amount of people on this forum who all reach the same conclusion about you: That you're a douchebag.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> I use a Ubuy mini amp for my widebanders - elfAudio 2125X, which is the same internally as an Arc Mini 125.2, but has more heatsinking due to the wider rounded fins - because it's small enough to hide, adequately powerful, and efficient enough to fit where I wanted to put it without overheating. It also costs much less than the Arc-badged Ubuy amp on the market today. (I would have preferred a class D amp, but I could not find one sufficiently narrow.) Midbasses get power from an Eclipse EA4200 bridged, because it's an efficient class-D amp that fit where I wanted to put it, has more than enough power for the task, runs cool, and has outstanding build quality for what I paid for it. Sub amp is an Eclipse XA1200, because it is an efficient class D (icepower) amp that was small enough to fit where I had space, has adequate power, and outstanding build quality for the price I paid.
> 
> Notice how idiotic concerns such as "sound" were not a priority. Size, output, efficiency, price, and build quality were. Since all my amps are hidden, I didn't care what they looked like, either, so long as they fit and were cool-running. If I did care what my amps looked like, I'd probably look for a dead big McIntosh, and stuff it with cheap class D amps!
> 
> ...


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> dB-r Electronics Forums - JL Audio 1000/1 (all slash series amps) repair tip
> 
> There's your proof.


I don't know that your link goes *at all* to your above point. To refresh your memory, because sometimes you're not so good with the whole keeping a coherent thought thing, here's what you wrote above: 

"Keep in mind, build quality has changed a bit since the original Korean made V1's were available. The new V2's are made in china. Might be nothing, could be everything..."

Yet I could not find the words "Chin*," "Korea*," "V1," or "V2" anywhere in the linked post.

If you are actually addressing a different point from the one that you made above, and basically just pointing out that pretty much everything ever made from multiple parts has some weak point somewhere that shows up over time in some units, then my only possible retort is, "duh." 

Arugably, the only reason one doesn't see such posts about Tru amps is that Tru's amps have not been nearly as successful in the marketplace as Jello's.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Last I checked, amps make sound (in conjunction with speakers of course, just wanted to get that out there before you correct me).


Nope. Amps raise the amplitude of a signal. That's all.



WRX/Z28 said:


> It's been widely regarded by people who are not morons, that amps do make a difference in sound. Even RC admitted he believed so before his "test", and i'd say he's far from a moron.


He was ignorant, and then he learned something that conforms to every single bit of serious research on the audible differences caused by electronics boxes. What's your point? 



WRX/Z28 said:


> You even went and admitted as much by stating that TRU's amps might have that sound due to either a defect, or being poorly designed.
> 
> You can't have it both ways bud.


Can too!

_Competently designed_ amps all sound the same. Some amps, especially the expensive ones designed to part cash from dumb audiophools, are incompetently designed. Tru's are an example of that genre of audiophool baubles. So it's entirely possible that the Tru is incompetently designed, even though any amp of competent design is a commodity part.

I may be, especially in the eyes of the terminally stupid, a douchebag. But I don't care, because I also happen to be _right._ I am expressing a position that is entirely supported by all known serious research on this **** going back to at least 1982. That is to say, I am expressing the _reality-based_ position, and poking fun at the voodoo dreamer flat-earthers. If that affects your perception of your manhood in some way...not my problem.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

mark1478 said:


> your the one thats elevating it. My basic reasoning is merely my ears telling me that one thing sounds different than another. just because i think something sounds better, worse, different or indifferent than you do does not make me "sane" or "insane". if your paperwork tells you that its all the same than in your world the earth is flat, everything is the same. whats the point of choices then? dont say i lack basic reasoning faculties just because I chose Tru over JL and to me..my ears, they sound different. people may agree or disagree, but i will not call them dumb for having an opinion


To be precise, it's your brain telling you there's a difference, not your ears. That's an important distinction because there are several cues that influence your perception, and they don't just come from your ears. That's why it's important that people use a blind testing methodology to properly evaluate differences.

Having said that, even if the difference is all in your mind, if it sounds better to you then it's money well spent, right? I get that, and that's fine. Just be careful when giving advice though, because you shouldn't necessarily be extrapolating your preferences to others -- and if you are, you should at least issue a disclaimer (eg. "I wasn't blind to the conditions" or "I didn't control for gain in my test", etc).

People really should identify WHY there's a difference whenever they change something in their system, instead of simply noting that they observed a difference and leaving it at that. That way their advice is more useful because it can be generalized to other people's situations.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> That's why it's important that people use a blind testing methodology to properly evaluate differences.


Tell that to the guys at COke who introduced New Coke. Worked for them.



MarkZ said:


> People really should identify WHY there's a difference whenever they change something in their system, instead of simply noting that they observed a difference and leaving it at that. That way their advice is more useful because it can be generalized to other people's situations.


I don't think there's a way that people_ should_ behave in this context. 

I would rather someone note that a difference was heard, and not pull a perceived cause out of thin air (especially if their skills at inference and deduction do not match their auditory capabilties, which is true for many humans). 

In short, hearing a difference is a data point. Your explanation of why may or may not be full of hot air, but if it is, the data point still exists.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

VP Electricity said:


> Tell that to the guys at COke who introduced New Coke. Worked for them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's a data point, but is it a useful one? The conclusions we can draw about data are only as strong as the experiment.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> To be precise, it's your brain telling you there's a difference, not your ears. That's an important distinction because there are several cues that influence your perception, and they don't just come from your ears. That's why it's important that people use a blind testing methodology to properly evaluate differences.
> 
> Having said that, even if the difference is all in your mind, if it sounds better to you then it's money well spent, right? I get that, and that's fine. Just be careful when giving advice though, because you shouldn't necessarily be extrapolating your preferences to others -- and if you are, you should at least issue a disclaimer (eg. "I wasn't blind to the conditions" or "I didn't control for gain in my test", etc).
> 
> People really should identify WHY there's a difference whenever they change something in their system, instead of simply noting that they observed a difference and leaving it at that. That way their advice is more useful because it can be generalized to other people's situations.


I did not once give advice on this thread to anyone. and I see your point. its an age old debate that goes back and forth over and over again, however I did not once call someone dumb, an audiophool, etc. People should be able to go on a forum to express an opinion and not have to be called retarded by someone else. Isnt that what forums are for?


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> I don't know that your link goes *at all* to your above point. To refresh your memory, because sometimes you're not so good with the whole keeping a coherent thought thing, here's what you wrote above: .


Hmmm, You stated that Jello's had no build quality issues you knew of other than set screw, and then asked for proof. No?

There's your proof. Just like you asked for. 

What part lacked coherent thought? 



DS-21 said:


> "Keep in mind, build quality has changed a bit since the original Korean made V1's were available. The new V2's are made in china. Might be nothing, could be everything..."
> 
> Yet I could not find the words "Chin*," "Korea*," "V1," or "V2" anywhere in the linked post..


I wouldn't expect you to. Those words are not there. Congratulations for being a master of the obvious. :laugh:

So are you saying you wanted proof of their origin? That I can get you. I don't think that was it though, I think you're just backpeddling there. 



DS-21 said:


> If you are actually addressing a different point from the one that you made above, and basically just pointing out that pretty much everything ever made from multiple parts has some weak point somewhere that shows up over time in some units, then my only possible retort is, "duh.".


My point was that even a "competently made amp" that you own has known issues. Good choice there, bonehead. 



DS-21 said:


> Arugably, the only reason one doesn't see such posts about Tru amps is that Tru's amps have not been nearly as successful in the marketplace as Jello's..


Obviously "arguably", you have no basis for assuming this, other than your flawed ego telling you that "expensive amps" must have problems, because only a moron would build or buy an amp that costs anything more than the bare minimum. Please remind me again why you don't own pyramid, or at least a cosmetically destroyed used amp? 






DS-21 said:


> Nope. Amps raise the amplitude of a signal. That's all..


Riiiiiiiiight...  I could show you plenty of amps that do a bit more than that. Granted, some have DSP's built in, but even those that don't have other functions built into them. 





DS-21 said:


> He was ignorant, and then he learned something that conforms to every single bit of serious research on the audible differences caused by electronics boxes. What's your point? .


My point is that he was not ignorant...




DS-21 said:


> Can too!
> 
> _Competently designed_ amps all sound the same. Some amps, especially the expensive ones designed to part cash from dumb audiophools, are incompetently designed. Tru's are an example of that genre of audiophool baubles. So it's entirely possible that the Tru is incompetently designed, even though any amp of competent design is a commodity part.


Why is that? Where in any of TRU's descriptions do they make any claims that their amps sound different? 



DS-21 said:


> I may be, especially in the eyes of the terminally stupid, a douchebag. But I don't care, because I also happen to be _right._ I am expressing a position that is entirely supported by all known serious research on this **** going back to at least 1982. That is to say, I am expressing the _reality-based_ position, and poking fun at the voodoo dreamer flat-earthers. If that affects your perception of your manhood in some way...not my problem.


I guess everyone but you is "terminally stupid".  

You love to beleive you are undeniably right! 

You're taking the scientific research of basically one individual, and placing it's merrit's above all else. Seems kind of like blind faith to me. Noone is perfect, and how would you feel if tomorrow, RC went and stated "****, amps have a different sound, and all my test proved was that it was hard to pick out which was which, I made a mistake in my findings, and my test was flawed."? What would your excuse be?

You've done 0% of this research yourself, so using it to champion your cause is IMO, silly. How about you find a cause where you did the research, and conducted the testing yourself, that way you can be 100% unequivocally and undeniably right. Which is, after all, all you're interested in.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> It's a data point, but is it a useful one? The conclusions we can draw about data are only as strong as the experiment.


Moot point. Correct, but irrelevant to my point. By the way, I would posit we don't draw conclusions about data. We draw conclusions about reality, and we use data as evidence to support our conclusions about reality.

The experiment may be well designed, it may be poorly designed, but neither controls whether or not your explanation of reality - or the cause of the observed event - is relevant. 

How's this: If you report a difference you heard, be aware that you will be asked many questions about the circumstances.

I was taught when I was younger that speaker loudness amplitude differences - with identical response curves - which were more than 3dB louder were perceived as louder, while differences of less than 3dB were perceived as "better sounding" rather than louder. Our brains heard the difference and mis-interpreted the cause behind it. 

This was something I was taught as a young home hi-fi salesperson. The trick was to switch back and forth between two speakers and nudge the volume knob a hair for the one you wanted to sound "better". Wasn't my trick. (By the way, recently I've looked for backing for that theory I was taught, and there seem to be lots of arguments about how small a difference we can hear with a given note, but not too much I can find that addresses this issue). 

So, if you didn't match amplitude with a good meter, if you didn't measure the voltage in, if you didn't measure the voltage out (both with a known reference signal), the validity of the result will be called into question. 

But not having done all that doesn't mean that the two amps sound identical. It just means that you didn't do a valid experiment. 
_
"What part of this are you not getting?"

"Well, obviously, the core concept. Sorry I didn't go to space camp."_

Lana and Sterling, _Archer_, on FX


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

VP Electricity said:


> Moot point. Correct, but irrelevant to my point. By the way, I would posit we don't draw conclusions about data. We draw conclusions about reality, and we use data as evidence to support our conclusions about reality.


Ok, draw conclusions FROM the data. You know what I meant. 



> The experiment may be well designed, it may be poorly designed, but neither controls whether or not your explanation of reality - or the cause of the observed event - is relevant.
> 
> How's this: If you report a difference you heard, be aware that you will be asked many questions about the circumstances.
> 
> ...


Exactly my point.


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## mark1478 (Nov 11, 2009)

in pertaining to TRU amplifiers and swappable cards and op amps, heres a good review about the amps. guy sounds very intelligent and not "audiophool" like. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...0-esotar-110-430-1200-tru-billets-ssld6i.html


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