# Outdoor speakers with (modified) non-marine speakers?



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Hi,

As you might know or not know, Xenia and I bought a house of our own. We don't have a real garden, but we do have a nice place next to our house to put some outdoor furniture and a BBQ to enjoy the fresh air when the weather allows us to.

We are thinking of putting up some outdoor speakers against the wall of the house, aimed towards this BBQ-spot.

The easiest and most logical way to do this would be to buy some outdoor speakers, or build our own with "Marine" speaker.
The problem is that all of those outdoor speakers are 5.25" or 6.5" coax speakers or 2-ways component sets in a plastic enclosure.
Since Xenia likes to listen to reggae music sometimes and I also appreciate it when the conditions are right (like when we are chilling outside on a dry, clear day with some beer or wine...), I think those typical outdoor-speakers won't be able to let that kind of music sound like it should because of the deep bass notes...

Apart from this possible issue, I prefer F(ullrange)A(nd)S(ubwoofer)T(echnology) systems, with or without an additional tweeter that only helps at the very top, instead of conventional midwoofer+tweeter 2-ways systems or other multi-ways systems that use crossoverpoints right in the middle of the midrange-spectrum.

Since no ready-made outdoor speakers that I know off use this kind of configuration, the only other option is to make them ourselves.

There are plenty of affordable, usable 3" fullrange drivers out there that shouldn't fall apart or die when seeing a drop of rainwater. I was thinking about using the Vifa TG9 with the glassfibre cone, rubber surround and ABS basket...

The problem is that there aren't many small (5-6.5") affordable high-excursion drivers out there and I cannot think of any that have a non-paper cone. (Both the Peerless SLS as the TangBand W6-1139 have a paper cone.)

Would some kind of coating on the paper-cone (to make it water-resistant) of a small "subwoofer" (playing up to about 200ish Hz) change the parameters and sound of the driver that hard that it would make me re-measure the parameters, or worse, make the driver completely unusable?

Isabelle


----------



## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

1STLY-Congratulations on the house! Hope you're very happy in it

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-product-reviews/6058-aurasound-whisper.html

You should look at this link, these in Patrick's little waveguides would do the trick for your HF-no waterproofing needed More posts show the guides.

Re "waterproofing" a bass driver-build the enclosure so it offers as much protection from direct impact and get a 8" driver-plenty to chose from with plastic cones, the JBL 8" GTO has been getting good reviews from tiny boxes, check talkaudio.co.uk there's one hitting 129dB out of a tiny box in the SPL section (would post link but banned ) and remaining musical. 

There's also the AutoTuba or similar (again check Patrick Bateman's threads) a lot larger than the GTO box, but you could build it into a bench seat for you 2 to share the good vibrations-would be perfect for reggae too

Otherwise a thin layer of WD-40 may repel enough water to stop any issues, model car paint has been used on subs with no ill effect-a few grammes shouldn't destroy musicallity.


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Hi,

I wouldn't know where to get Aurasound in Belgium or Holland, France, Germany...
Apart from being able to buy the drivers, I don't think an array is the best option for this situation: The speakers will be mounted to a wall of the house, so each speaker will be aimed towards 1 spot, but it's quite important that the sound stays good all over the place, both standing up, sitting down, or even laying down.
An array-setup will always have at least 1 direction with poor off-axis response...

To create the best possible response all over the BBQ-spot and at different heights, we need a system with a great off-axis response both horizontally as vertically. That's why I prefer a single, not too big (but big enough to have enough volume displacement) driver to play most of the sound, with a little help in the bass-range.
I think a +-3" full-range driver with a couple mm's of x-max is the best way to go. A bigger driver would increase the need for a tweeter to keep the off-axis response and top-end extension acceptable, a driver smaller in size and/or lower in x-max won't be able to play the entire midrange (down to about 200Hz) on its own with enough authority.

I'm pretty convinced this project is the perfect excuse to check out the Vifa TG9.

I also want to keep the speakers as small as possible. It's a very small house and there will be already an 88cm satellite dish on that same wall, and it's a wall that can be seen from the street. 
We don't want to get trouble with local authorities (you normally need a licence to put things on walls that are visible from the street, so that satellite dish is already taking a risk) and we don't want to ruin the look of the house by mounting huge speakers on it.
That's why we decided we don't want speakers that are bigger than 35cm high, 20cm wide and 20cm deep, so even if the internal volume would be big enough for some 8" woofers, it's just impossible to use a woofer that is bigger than 6.5" in diameter.

I wonder if WD40 would do the trick, so I guess model car paint would be the best way to go, but is a thin layer of model car paint enough to prevent water to soak into the papercone and destroy it?

Personally, I was thinking about using a thin layer of polyester-resin?

The 2 woofers that have a chance to be used in this project have an Mms of 40grams and 35grams, which is a lot less than most bigger subwoofers, so the weight of a coating-layer on these little subs will have more influence on these, than on bigger subs that have an Mms of 100+ grams...

Isabelle


----------



## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

Repellent Protection

scotchgard would probably work best imo


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Is this something that can be bought in a spray-can or bottle? When reading that page, it seems like this is some kind of technology that is manufactured by 3M that is used in clothing factories, not like something you can go buy in a bottle and apply yourself?

Isabelle


----------



## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

Amazon.com: 3M 4106D 10-Ounce Scotchgard Fabric Protector for Fabric and Upholstery: Home Improvement


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Here in Europe, it isn't interesting to buy stuff from the USA because of shipping and taxes, but I guess I should be able to find this stuff over here too.
I'll give a look at it, thanks!

Isabelle


----------



## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

leroi-merlin should have it on the shelf. if not, go to a local sporting/camping goods store and try tent water-proofing spray.


----------



## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

boom box items - Get great deals on Electronics, Clothing, Shoes Accessories items on eBay.com!

Fostex Full Range Speakers from Madisound

i dont want to admit it, but some of these things actually sound good

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=bo...kw=bose&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1311

if you have trouble getting stuff where you are, ill buy it and ship it to you

but you paypal me first


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Shoe protectant or waterproofing


----------



## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Have you got a pic of the area? Or a schematic? Would help visualise


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I made a quick schematic of our piece of land.
The 3 little rectangles at the parking spot are stairs. The parking spot is at street level, but the rest of our property is below street-level.
I've put 'x's where we'd put the speakers.










We didn't really measure the property yet, so the schematic is not scaled, but the BBQ spot really is quite big compared to the house, so I'm pretty sure we'll spend quite some time there when the weather is nice, that's why we want good sound outdoors without having to drag a couple of speakers in and out all the time...

Isabelle


----------



## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Perfect for these:

Mini Vibrating Speakers, amplifiers for gaming, computers, iPod, MP3, stereo systems

Use the window itself as the speakers, have seen various different designs most "play flat" form 200Hz. Two transducers on the one pane of glass will provide stereo sound. 

Have seen them that claim to be able to play down to 40Hz...

Subwoofer could be placed under the window and wiring drilled thru wall?


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

We don't want to attach something at, in front of or behind windows. I'm also not convinced something like this can provide higher-end sound.
We are also considering replacing that window by a door so the path between the kitchen/bathroom/living room and barbecue spot it shorter and more straight, which can be very usefull when having friends over for an outdoor party or just to make life easier for ourselves...

We really want "normal", good sounding outdoor speakers, that's why I'm seriously considering to build something myself with diy drivers.

Eventually, we will "rebuild" the barbecue spot with a wooden floor (now it's just big ugly concrete tiles) and poles around it to attach a sun-blocking sail, hammocks... 
Once we've done this work, we'll probably move the speakers from the wall of the house to 2 of those poles, so the sound is more concentrated to the barbecue spot and we can turn the volume a bit down without missing information. This way, we might be able to invite friends over and sit outside with some music on untill the night without bothering the neighbours...

Isabelle


----------



## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Ok then, back to the drivers you were looking at then!

What sort of box volume do they require?

I'd suggest looking at a design similar design to these:
Soundsphere // Model 110B Compact Loudspeaker for Seamless Background Music & Clear Voice Announcements

Use a 2x hemispherical bowls, one for mounting the driver in and one as the reflector, have the driver downwards firing which should reduce the chances of it getting wet/dew damage-would post a brilliant drawing I just did in paint but can't get it to upload


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I guess 2.5 liters should suffice for the fullrangers, so there's 5.5 liters left for the mini-sub.
With the TB driver, this gives a total Q of .73
With the Peerless driver, the total Q becomes .6

When I simulate them both in WinISD, both with the same power applied, both in 8liters sealed, the SPL curves are literally on top of eachother from 75Hz down.
Above 75Hz, the Peerless driver rises some more while the TB drivers curve becomes flatter.

I prefer the TangBand since it has more x-max for the same money, allowing to play lower at higher volume level, and since the difference in SPL output between 20Hz and 150Hz is smaller with the TB driver, it will give the impression of having more sub-bass.

About that sphere design: I don't like the look of that and I don't want to build fancy complex speakers. A pair of simple rectangular sealed boxes should do the trick. 

Isabelle


----------



## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

A pair of *weatherproof* simple rectangular sealed boxes


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Off course...


----------



## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

this would make a great seat somewhere in a garden, and could be made weatherproof easily, and you need a sub

INVERTED WEDGE DESIGN


----------



## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Ok, so regular box it is, have you come accross this moisture gurad before-very cheap may be worth trialing it as a grill material?

Phonocar 4/927 Rain Stop Moisture Guard

Slant the front panel in and down and any rain hitting the "grill" should just roll off

I've some knocking around-will see how much it attenuates tweeters/mids today.


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Let me know if this stuff doesn't dampen the higher mid and treble too much. I will seriously consider searching until I find this stuff if it's *really* acoustically transparent.
I think, even with this "magic grille", I'll still put a thin layer of waterproofing stuff on the paper-cones of the woofers, just to protect them from humidity or rain that might pass the grille in very very rainy and windy weather, but it would probably make me sleep a lot better, knowing that our precious speakers are already protected against rain before it hits the cones...

Isabelle


----------



## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

A quick test reveals that if it does dampen the mid and trebble frequencies my ears are too sh!t to pick it up, as were my engineer's and a good friend's who spent 20yrs in car audio-his exact words were "That sh!t is f$cking good! Where did you get it from and how much is it?"

So 3 of us agreed you couldn't tell a difference between the covered or uncovered drivers.

http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=...ent=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wf

Before you coat the cones get some of ^ and do some outside testing behind the moisture guard and see whether you need to coat them.


----------



## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

DOUBLE POST


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Thanks!
I'll try to find this stuff.

I won't mind testing it with humidity indicators or something, I'll just apply a thin layer of waterproofing to the cones of the woofers, I guess that won't hurt them since midbass and sub-bass is more about moving air than about cone reflections/dampening/break-up/... and a few grams of coating won't change the parameters of a driver that has about 40grams of moving mass too much...

Isabelle


----------



## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Glad I could be of help 

Should be easy enough to find the stuff in Belgium, Phonocar are better distributed in the EU than the UK IIRC-if not I can buy here for you and ship it out. Skins moisture guard is the same stuff-so I've been told-don't know if it's easier to find in Belgium?

Re painting the cone-I'd find some old paper cone drivers and do some tests with paint/3M/WD-40 etc just to see which offers the best protection before deciding which to use.

Keep us posted


----------



## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

The only paperconed drivers we have laying around that might be used for testing things like that, are the blown fullrangers that are in a pair of old Technics (nothing vintage, just some 1/4" chip-board crap of the 90's) speakers we have standing around. We were planning to replace the fullrangers of those by something else anyways (the woofers still work and are surprisingly good!)...

But I thing that 3M stuff will be the best stuff for this (I mean, it is designed to make fabrics waterproof, paint and WD40 isn't).
I won't be able to test if that 3M stuff does anything to the sound in the bass-range, since those fullrangers are only 3", probably have very limited x-max and are crippled anyways, but since the limited weight of a thin layer of coating compared to the moving mass of a mini-subwoofer, I'm not affraid the sound will change drastically...
I will be able to use 1 to see what water drops do to the cone with no coating on it and then use the other one to see what happens if there's a layer of 3M stuff on...

I will do this test when we're moved to our new house, so this will take a few weeks before I can post an update about this...

Isabelle


----------



## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

They'll be perfect for the test-all I meant was see which treatment worked the best in repelling the water; cut each cone in half so you have four test pieces and then coat each piece, both sides, with the chosen treatment. Wait for it to dry. Weigh each piece and make a note of the weight. Then leave outside in the elements for a few days and then visually inspect the cones and weigh them-any difference in weight will indicate an intake of moisture that the eye may not show up.

Don't knock WD-40, it was developed for keeping Atlas missiles corrosion free! Here's a fairly extensive list of uses, couldn't spot one on speakers-but it is recommended for keeping mildew (fungus) growing on wood:

http://www.wd40.co.uk/media/images/a/8/LIST_OF_2_000_USES.pdf


----------



## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

This is interesting reading when considering adding mass to the driver:
http://www.stereointegrity.com/Files/WooferSpeed.pdf


----------

