# Help my sub sounds like crap



## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

I've got an alpine type R 10" in a sealed box powered by a jbl 600.1. I had this in my g8 and was very dissapionted with the SQ. It got loud but sounded really muddy. I sold the g8 and got a 2011 mustang and just finished installing the same setup in my mustang. It sounds even worse. Muddy as hell. All the bass notes are no definition. My neighbor has a dual 12" bandpass box taht he bought at frys with 2 polks in it that has better SQ than my sub.

I had to take it out of the car because I like sq and it sounds like complete crap and ruins the sound of my cdt components. 
Any suggestions? The box is a sealed .65 cu ft which is within alpine specs. What could be causing this? Could the amp be going out?(Its 5+ years old) I figured if it was the amp it wouldnt play at all. The sub is practically brand new only used for 3-4 months but it has never sounded good.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Type R is junk with junk SQ and that's what you get. Dump it and go for a Dayton RSS315HO-44.

BTW, why would you possibly sell a G8 for a Mustang? Going from an adult's car back to a child's toy...

Could your amp be distorting? Yes. But Type R is not a good sub.


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

dragonrage said:


> Type R is junk with junk SQ and that's what you get. Dump it and go for a Dayton RSS315HO-44.
> 
> BTW, why would you possibly sell a G8 for a Mustang? Going from an adult's car back to a child's toy...


Really? Everytime I read reviews on amazon etc people say the type r has great sq and spl. I bought it because it was cheap($75 new). I plan on switching in the future but I figured it would be at least halfway decent until then but I cant stand the way it sounds.

Speed. I bought the g8 thinking I would be having kids. Didnt end up happening. The 5.0 mustang is way faster and cheaper to mod to go faster. The g8 was a "nicer" car, the mustang is sportier. 

Oh and I triple checked the polarity on my connections(and tested the speaker with a battery).


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## tibug (Jan 22, 2011)

dragonrage said:


> Type R is junk with junk SQ and that's what you get. Dump it and go for a Dayton RSS315HO-44.
> 
> BTW, why would you possibly sell a G8 for a Mustang? Going from an adult's car back to a child's toy...


You're a silly sally. :mickey:


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## joemk69 (Dec 3, 2010)

Do you have the voice coils wired properly? Also try building a slightly bigger box, Alpine's spec's say you can go up to 1.0 sealed


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## tibug (Jan 22, 2011)

And make sure the box is SEALED, not just sealed. You want it SEALED in all caps.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Where do you have the sub low passed at?


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## amchino (Dec 31, 2009)

if you can add some pics, how you have your setup showing your amps gains and box,thanks


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

I followed alpines manual twice for the vc. Sub I try to cross around 100hz but it's hard to say since the amp doesn't have ticks or exact measurements. I'll get some pics Tommorow.


I did lts and full exhaust cai and tune on the g8. It has dod so a cam swap(next step) was going to be almost 3k since you have to pull the heads etc to take out the dod. That and no aftermarket companies want to make parts for a dead brand.


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

newfiveoh said:


> Really? Everytime I read reviews on amazon etc people say the type r has great sq and spl.


Most reviews of audio equipment on amazon.com and sonicelectronix.com are junk.. Be it a high end equipment or a cheap POS, they almost always both get 4.5 out of 5.. Most people posting there have not done comparative reviews with similar priced products. It may be that Type-R is the best sub they had or that it's their first sub. Either way, most reviewers are satisfied and post a favorable review..


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

newfiveoh said:


> I followed alpines manual twice for the vc. Sub I try to cross around 100hz but it's hard to say since the amp doesn't have ticks or exact measurements. I'll get some pics Tommorow.



I think 100Hz would be considered too high by many experts.. Most mids play fine down to like 80Hz, even most $60 coaxial speakers, so there is no need to cross this high. When I had my first sub I set crossover to like 130Hz (after all, I paid for that sub, box, and amp only to play 0-70Hz?? No wayyy!), the bass was boomy and muddy. Then I experimented with the crossovers. As I kept reducing the crossover point, the bass became more articulate and tighter. I believe the general recommendation is to cross as low as your mids allow. With average mids, 80Hz is a good starting point. With better mids, you can go down to 70, 60, or even 50Hz. Also play with gain and bass eq. Start with bass EQ flat on head unit and on amplifier.

By the way, I was also told that manufacturer recommended box size is generally not best for SQ. The manufacturer spec is for power handling so you could slam the sub with a good amplifier. For SQ, it's often recommended to have a bigger box. Some people suggest to model subwoofer box parameters using software to achieve QTC of 0.7 (whatever that means.. but it's support to be good for SQ). Maybe the experts here can help you.

Then there is the issue of sub diameter.. a 12 inch subwoofer has 1.44 time the cone area of 10 inch sub. 2 12 inch subwoofers have 3 times the cone area of 10 inch sub. So, a 12 sub will reach deep bass notes more effortlessly in theory than a suffocated sealed 10 inch sub. So yeah, that a dual 12 inch setup destroys your sub is not a surprise... It's been discussed on this forum at least once that having two cheaper subs can actually be better than one sub that handles monster power. In my car, for SQ, I would prefer to go with a sealed dual 12 inch subwoofer setup, using a couple of cheaper subs, like Alpine Type S or Re Audio SRX (I have it, like it) but since that takes too much trunk space, I currently prefer the second best, a sealed 12 inch sub. 

Also see this thread..

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...2-high-wattage-subwoofers-=-sales-gimmic.html


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

newfiveoh said:


> That and no aftermarket companies want to make parts for a dead brand.


1) Cams are not G8-specific. The L76 engine is used elsewhere, and the cams are compatible with other LS-series engines.

2) The Holden Commodore on which the G8 was based is still made, and the car (with different bodywork) is still sold as the Lumina and as the Vauxhall VXR8

3) Chevrolet To Get Holden Based SS Sedan - Top Speed

(P.S. I do respect that Mustangs are fast - just joking about that part - but I do personally believe the G8 is a more grown-up car. My previous car was a 99 Camaro Z28 and I don't really want to daily drive something like that again.)


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

ZAKOH said:


> I think 100Hz would be considered too high by many experts.. Most mids play fine down to like 80Hz, even most $60 coaxial speakers, so there is no need to cross this high. When I had my first sub I set crossover to like 130Hz (after all, I paid for that sub, box, and amp only to play 0-70Hz?? No wayyy!), the bass was boomy and muddy. Then I experimented with the crossovers. As I kept reducing the crossover point, the bass became more articulate and tighter. I believe the general recommendation is to cross as low as your mids allow. With average mids, 80Hz is a good starting point. With better mids, you can go down to 70, 60, or even 50Hz. Also play with gain and bass eq. Start with bass EQ flat on head unit and on amplifier.
> 
> By the way, I was also told that manufacturer recommended box size is generally not best for SQ. The manufacturer spec is for power handling so you could slam the sub with a good amplifier. For SQ, it's often recommended to have a bigger box. Some people suggest to model subwoofer box parameters using software to achieve QTC of 0.7 (whatever that means.. but it's support to be good for SQ). Maybe the experts here can help you.
> 
> ...


The problem is the amp has a adjustable crossover from 32hz-320hz and no notches or way of knowing were your at except by listening. I'll try moving it down a little and see if that helps. I see what your saying about the review and 2 12s sounding better. Id rather not go with 2 12s since the trunk is tiny and I actually use it quite a bit. I was planning on going with a jl 10w6 but maybe I should considering going to the 12w6 instead. 





dragonrage said:


> 1) Cams are not G8-specific. The L76 engine is used elsewhere, and the cams are compatible with other LS-series engines.
> 
> 2) The Holden Commodore on which the G8 was based is still made, and the car (with different bodywork) is still sold as the Lumina and as the Vauxhall VXR8
> 
> ...


I know all about the l76 and the g8, the cams arent specific but the DOD system makes it 2x as much to do a cam swap in them than a normal lsx car(camaro, vette etc). That and the fact it weighs 4000+lbs it was getting quite expensive to go faster. It kept its value pretty well in the 2 years I had it and I sold it while it still had good equity. Yes the holden and vaxhall are still sold overseas but getting parts imported(especially bigger items) takes a lot more time and shipping costs. They've been talking about bringing the g8/holden sedan back in various forms for a while now. I'll belive it when I see it. The only thing ive seen for sure is the cop version. 

PS I do agree that the g8 is more of a "family/grown up car" but my priorities right now are going fast and I love daily driving the stang. I know plenty of 50+ year olds that daily drive stangs(im 30 btw).


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

I'm starting to think the type r is just garbage. I listened to it for an hour on the way to work. I mostly listen to country and rock. The bass notes on most of the songs are almost blended into one long note. I'm taking it out for good when I get home. 

I think i'm going to order a jl 12w6 today.


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## jim walter (Apr 10, 2010)

newfiveoh said:


> I'm starting to think the type r is just garbage. I listened to it for an hour on the way to work. I mostly listen to country and rock. The bass notes on most of the songs are almost blended into one long note. I'm taking it out for good when I get home.
> 
> I think i'm going to order a jl 12w6 today.


Do you have a new generation version or old (old has the type r logo on the aluminum magnet cover)? Swr-1042d or 1043d?

If old, you'll need a bit bigger box than that sealed as it has quite a bit higher Q than the new one. I'd try it in ~1.0 cubes if you're looking to get a less boomy sound out of it.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

newfiveoh said:


> I'm starting to think the type r is just garbage. I listened to it for an hour on the way to work. I mostly listen to country and rock. The bass notes on most of the songs are almost blended into one long note. I'm taking it out for good when I get home.
> 
> I think i'm going to order a jl 12w6 today.


Please do yourself a favor and order this instead: https://www.diycable.com/main/produ...s_id=693&Cid=5c298c82b8a0124cb9fc006472fabf14

It will sound better AND have more output than a 12w6. The XBL^2 motor is really something special.


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## joemk69 (Dec 3, 2010)

Before you go wasting any money, please build a bigger box. I know type r's are not a sq sub, but if you place it in a bigger box it certainly will help clean it up.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Yeah, you'd need a bigger box for the Shiva-X2 anyway, or the JL 12w6... so if you want to build one of maybe 1.5cuft first, you could try the Type Argh in it first...


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

dragonrage said:


> Please do yourself a favor and order this instead:
> It will sound better AND have more output than a 12w6. The XBL^2 motor is really something special.


I'm leaning towards the 12w6 becuase I was going to get a premade box and want it to be the perfect size box. I feel like that might be part of the problem with the alpine. No I do NOT want to build my own box and yes I realize its easy to do. Are you on any g8 forums? 

I have the older alpine.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

newfiveoh said:


> I'm leaning towards the 12w6 becuase I was going to get a premade box and want it to be the perfect size box. I feel like that might be part of the problem with the alpine. No I do NOT want to build my own box and yes I realize its easy to do. Are you on any g8 forums?
> 
> I have the older alpine.


I'm on GRRRR8 and post there sometimes (not as much as here) and G8Board but rarely bother going there (not a big fan of the heavy moderation that goes on there).

For a box, just buy a premade one, even if it's an Ebay one, it won't be all that bad... add some bracing if you want to make it better. The Blaupunkt ones on there are cheap and decent enough... it's not like you're running a million watts here. I use one myself at the moment, just temporarily until I build something into the spare tire well, and it's reasonably okay. The Blaupunkt 12" ones say 1.36cuft... stuff it moderately and it will be decent for the Shiva-X2... Qtc=0.775 for the Shiva-X2 in 1.2cuft, which is fine.


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

Actually I just looked up the specs and the box I have is .77cuft. Its the sealed 10" box from sonic electronix. I cant post a link bc I dont hav enough posts.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

newfiveoh said:


> Actually I just looked up the specs and the box I have is .77cuft. Its the sealed 10" box from sonic electronix. I cant post a link bc I dont hav enough posts.


Make sure you subtract the volume of the driver itself, which is generally .1 to .2 cuft.


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

dragonrage said:


> I'm on GRRRR8 and post there sometimes (not as much as here) and G8Board but rarely bother going there (not a big fan of the heavy moderation that goes on there).
> 
> For a box, just buy a premade one, even if it's an Ebay one, it won't be all that bad... add some bracing if you want to make it better. The Blaupunkt ones on there are cheap and decent enough... it's not like you're running a million watts here. I use one myself at the moment, just temporarily until I build something into the spare tire well, and it's reasonably okay. The Blaupunkt 12" ones say 1.36cuft... stuff it moderately and it will be decent for the Shiva-X2... Qtc=0.775 for the Shiva-X2 in 1.2cuft, which is fine.


How do you like the FI Q 12? I was actually looking at getting that one instead of the 12w6 for a while but was leaning towards the w6 bc of the box.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

newfiveoh said:


> How do you like the FI Q 12? I was actually looking at getting that one instead of the 12w6 for a while but was leaning towards the w6 bc of the box.


I don't like it. I only use it at the moment because I bought it before I knew better. I will be switching to Dayton, Exodus, CSS or Stereo Integrity when I can afford to sink even more money into my car audio.


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

dragonrage said:


> I don't like it. I only use it at the moment because I bought it before I knew better. I will be switching to Dayton, Exodus, CSS or Stereo Integrity when I can afford to sink even more money into my car audio.


Good to know. Thanks.


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

Damn that shiva is oos until estimated June!


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

Oh, it is? Damn. It was in stock when I looked like a week ago :/ Can you fit more like 3.5cuft and go for Tempest-X2? (I suppose not in a Mustang, huh?) Otherwise I recommend Dayton Reference from Parts Express. The Daytons are SQ subs but they only displace about half as much as the Exodus stuff, but they are also a lot cheaper. You could do 2 of the 12"s or something.


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## joemk69 (Dec 3, 2010)

The box directly affects the way a sub will perform. You can spend a $1000.00 on one sub, put it in the wrong size box and it will sound like ass


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

3.5 cu ft no way. 1.5 cu ft is probably the biggest I can go. I use my trunk and need to keep space in it. Link to the Dayton sub? I probably could only fit one. Maybe I should just wait for the shiva.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

12": Dayton Audio RSS315HO-44 12" Reference HO DVC Subwoofer

It is 4-ohm DVC so you'd only have a final load of 2 ohms, unfortunately.


Could also do Tempest-X2 in 1.5 w/ aperiodic damping


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

dragonrage said:


> 12":
> 
> It is 4-ohm DVC so you'd only have a final load of 2 ohms, unfortunately.
> 
> ...


My amp does 600.1 into 2 or 1 ohms so that's fine. Thx for the help


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

One more question what size box do you recommend for the Dayton?


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

newfiveoh said:


> One more question what size box do you recommend for the Dayton?


1.25-1.5 sealed, 1.5-2.5 ported


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

You can't go wrong with the W6. I've run them in every type of configuration for over 6 years and they continue to impress. Not a single problem with them. They definitely sound better in a larger than recommended enclosure though. I'm even running them IB now and they sound amazing.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

BuickGN said:


> You can't go wrong with the W6. I've run them in every type of configuration for over 6 years and they continue to impress. Not a single problem with them. They definitely sound better in a larger than recommended enclosure though. I'm even running them IB now and they sound amazing.


They are not bad subs, but they are way too expensive and do not have the SQ of anything I listed (they don't have BAD SQ, but definitely not as good) and nowhere near the output of the Exodus. They do have a little bit more low-end capability (due to excursion) than the Dayton - but a bit less rated power handling.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

dragonrage said:


> They are not bad subs, but they are way too expensive and do not have the SQ of anything I listed (they don't have BAD SQ, but definitely not as good) and nowhere near the output of the Exodus. They do have a little bit more low-end capability (due to excursion) than the Dayton - but a bit less rated power handling.


They have great SQ in the proper setup. I have no brand loyalty so if something better comes along that combines all the W6s qualities and significantly out performs it I would try it. In fact, I'm going to try the AE IB15 if they arrive in this lifetime but I'll probably end up filing a claim against them. The 12W6 in an IB setup is one of the best sounding, most detailed and impactful setups I've ever heard.


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

BuickGN said:


> They have great SQ in the proper setup. I have no brand loyalty so if something better comes along that combines all the W6s qualities and significantly out performs it I would try it. In fact, I'm going to try the AE IB15 if they arrive in this lifetime but I'll probably end up filing a claim against them. The 12W6 in an IB setup is one of the best sounding, most detailed and impactful setups I've ever heard.


Appreciate the opinion as I said before I like the fact I can buy a jl box designed for the sub. I'm still up in the air on which way I'm going to go

Edit: I just adjusted the xover down a little lower and it does sound less boomy but its still sloppy as hell and too boomy for my taste.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

You could stuff the box, a bag of poly is like $2 at walmart. I would also agree the box is more important than the sub, assuming the sub can meet your needs (read: you are not overpowering it or trying to get lower than it can). For most systems 20 different subs would work well with minor differences. Boomy usually means too small a box. You could stuff it and invert the sub, that would simulate a larger box.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

BuickGN said:


> They have great SQ in the proper setup. I have no brand loyalty so if something better comes along that combines all the W6s qualities and significantly out performs it I would try it. In fact, I'm going to try the AE IB15 if they arrive in this lifetime but I'll probably end up filing a claim against them. The 12W6 in an IB setup is one of the best sounding, most detailed and impactful setups I've ever heard.


They are okay sounding but they simply do not have anything special about the motor. They are not going to have the linearity of what I listed, and they will not have the low distortion performance of what I listed.


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## jim walter (Apr 10, 2010)

dragonrage said:


> They are okay sounding but they simply do not have anything special about the motor. They are not going to have the linearity of what I listed, and they will not have the low distortion performance of what I listed.


Actually they (W6s) do, it's called a great design through extensive FEA work. They measure lower in distortion and subjectively sound better than those subs you listed. 

This is coming from a guy that should be dogging on JL, but not when it comes to woofer design, especially of a W6.


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## Danometal (Nov 16, 2009)

If you decided to build your own box, you could build a low tuned ported box for the Alpine. I've read they don't do well sealed.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Again,

The key to good subwoofer performance is enclosure design. Way more so than the motor design. At least in most applications.


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## Mark the Bold (May 28, 2010)

+1 recommendation for the Dayton 10" HO subwoofer. I have read Danminivanman report that you really don't gain much by going up to a 12" HO sub in this line. All it needs is 0.70ft^3 ported to 29-30hz to get a Q of 0.7.

+0.9 for the JL w12v3. Just did an install with two of these in a 3.5 cu.ft. and I was seriously impressed.

But I still recommend the Dayton HO ported or the JL sealed. But if musical, natural and undistorted bass is your goal, the Dayton reference line is hard to beat for $125 - $140 shipped.


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## bluecavi28 (Feb 19, 2008)

dragonrage said:


> They are okay sounding but they simply do not have anything special about the motor. They are not going to have the linearity of what I listed, and they will not have the low distortion performance of what I listed.


 The 12w6v2 actualy is one of the few subs out of the subs listed in this thread that have been tried and tested by casual and pro's alike to be of very low distortion and one of the most linear subs available.

The motor of this sub has very many of the same technologies incorprated into it that the w7 series shares and are patented to reduce distortion..they just don't have specific names for these technologies like some of the other subs have....I know the w7 has a reputation of just being a loud low end monstor but this is because it usualy get's used in a way that doesn't take advantage of what it's capable of (linear/low distortion)...most people just hammer them.

This shiva x2 should be tested more in my opinion before opinions are said about it because I have seen very few posts from people that actualy use or even heard this sub and after reading through this post--> Unexpected Distortion from Shiva-X2 - CarAudioForum.com I am a little emabarassed I ever recomended the Shiva to anyone YET ( I have recomended it in the past)...I recomended this sub because I am a believer in the xbl2 technology as I have worked with the old adire brahma that incorprated this same technology and it was an amazing sub but now I am not so sure this new Shiva is all that.

To the OP the Type R can be made to sound good and I agree with the guys that said try a new box for it as they are correct that enclosure design is the most important part in how a subwoofer performs.

Before I close this post for any of you that have the Shiva x2 and have good opinions on it please share I in no way am saying the Shiva is a bad sub I just havn't seen alot on it as far as facts the only thing I have seen is alot of recomendations from alot of people that havn't heard it before.


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## dragonrage (Feb 14, 2007)

One person has a problem with a Shiva-X2 in an undersized box and you're switching sides? Come on.


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## Eastman474 (Jan 8, 2010)

Is this the old type r or the new version type r? I would definitely notsay they have junk sq if it's the new version... I personally like them ported but I feel they need more than 600w, I think they sound beat on around 800 or so.


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## bluecavi28 (Feb 19, 2008)

dragonrage said:


> One person has a problem with a Shiva-X2 in an undersized box and you're switching sides? Come on.


Not switching sides. just going to hold off on my opinion about it until I see more reviews/opinions from people who actualy own it.


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

Eastman474 said:


> Is this the old type r or the new version type r? I would definitely notsay they have junk sq if it's the new version... I personally like them ported but I feel they need more than 600w, I think they sound beat on around 800 or so.


Its the old one. I inverted the sub today and it does sound better but its still boomy as hell.(.77cu ft box now)

Edit: I'm trying some polyfill right now... how much should I put in t here?


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## newfiveoh (Jan 21, 2011)

I filled about 2/3 of the box with poly. SQ still sucks. Oh well it was worth a try.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

You should fill it nearly full leaving room for the sub to breath or whatever. But don't pack it in there either. That should give max effect of 20% more box depending on what you read.


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## scotty89 (Apr 7, 2011)

dragonrage said:


> Type R is junk with junk SQ and that's what you get. Dump it and go for a Dayton RSS315HO-44.
> 
> Could your amp be distorting? Yes. But Type R is not a good sub.


I disagree. The Type-R's are quite capable subs in the right enclosure with enough power.

They are not high end audiophile gear, obviously. But they will give everything in their price range a real good run for their money.



joemk69 said:


> Do you have the voice coils wired properly? Also try building a slightly bigger box, Alpine's spec's say you can go up to 1.0 sealed


I had two 10's in a sealed box, just under 1cu.ft. each and they were tight and articulate. They do need some power to get them moving though - 500w at least, if not a little more.


I did find however that the seats in the back of my car sealed the boot too well - with the seats up, the bass was a little too muffled. I wouldn't blame this on the subs however, it was due to the cars design, not the subwoofer.


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