# SQ-Stealth Build - 2011 Hyundai Genesis Coupe



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Hi Guys,

I have been reading/watching this forum for about four years now and have learned from many people's ideas while doing stereo installs for myself, friends and family. I have also played around with many top-of-the-line brands in that time. The time has come to post my own install build for two reasons. First, I finally have a car worth building/keeping and second, I finally have more than $3k saved to create something that lives up to my standards.

*Goals *- Sound quality. I listen to a lot of rock (from within the last 10 years), dubstep (and variations like chillstep, brostep, etc), and a lot of classical/melodic music such as Electus, CryWolf, Actium. Disapprove if you will, but it is my preference. I listen to all of this at a moderately-high volume and I love to scream along after a hard day's work. I prefer not to hear myself screaming, however. I do not care about competitions and have no desire to show my car. I never drive with my windows down in hopes that my neighbors will hear my favorite music and think highly of me. This is just for me.

The equipment I have so far includes:
- *Head Unit* - Stock Infinity HU with navigation. I want to keep the Nav, mic, AUX, iPod, CAN-BUS and steering wheel controls. The unit has a 4V pre-out that is almost flat and would be easy to adapt for a new system. I will remove the stock amp and replace it with a nice DSP to feed the rest of the system.

- *Front stage* - Undecided. I like the silk-domed tweeters because they are, in general, not as efficient above 4khz as a metal-domed counterpart (you could say that I find metal tweeters too "bright"). My last component set was a 6.5" Hertz High Energy HSK-165.4 and that was a little too "bright" yet they were not as bad as the Focal PS165 that I had a little while before that. I find that my ears fatigue quickly and are sensitive to higher frequencies (I can hear dog/deer whistles, buzzing from Florescent lights, etc). Some of the best components I have heard were the JBL 660GTi; nearly perfect to my preferences. Not sure if I want to spend that much on a component set just yet (was trying to stay in the $750-$800 range at max). I know that auditioning can be everything, but I would have to drive for 4+ hours just to get to a place that had actual component sets worth listening to. Not to mention I am no stranger to tuning and how badly a "bad" tune can corrupt an excellent set of drivers. I am leaning towards one of the following (6.5" or 6.75") and I'm hoping the experts here can help me narrow it down based on my pre-selected criteria:
- Morel Hybrid 602
- JL Audio ZR650-Csi
- Focal K2 Power 165KR (someone told me the Kevlar tweets were better)
- Rainbow CS 265 PROFI
- CDT ES-62i
- Image Dynamics XS-65

- *Rear fill* - I enjoy rear fill; personal preference. Undecided but I want to keep this basic. I also want to maintain a close perspective to the selection of the front stage with the same audible requirements. They do have to be coaxial because I am trying to do a stealth install. I am leaning towards one of the following:
- Morel Hybrid Integra 602
- CDT ES-63i
- JL Audio C5-650X
- Image Dynamics CXS64 V.2

- *Subwoofers* - 2x JL Audio 10W3v3-4 - Got a great deal on these and really enjoy the linear sound of JL subs.

- *Sub Amp* - JL Audio HD Series HD1200/1 - I have owned the HD900/5 series amp from JL in my previous car and the sub amp portion sounded great to me. A JL+JL combination on the low end is one of my personal favorites.

- *Mids/Highs Amp* - Undecided. I really like the reproduction abilities of a class A or A/B but space is at a premium here (18"x11" max). Also, I don't have a lot of options for increasing the power generation (alternator) in my car. I'm looking for around 100-150 watts rms in four channels. It needs to be efficient, cool, and small. I have heard many class D amps in the upper ranges and they have been sub-par compared to a class A/B but it could also just be a coincidence. Class D does seem to fit my space/design requirements. Having said that, I am leaning towards one of the following:
- TRU Technologies S4 Steel Series 
- Focal FPS 4160
- JL Audio 600/4
- ZED Audio Draconia III
- Gladen XL-150c4

- *DSP *- I have a Helix DSP (8-channel) that I will be using for this install.

Here are the pictures of the beginning stage of the install from this weekend. I only have enough time to do "The Big Three", but it was time well spent. Next weekend I hope to get the remainder of the wiring done as well as the sound deadening. 

I always coat with clearcoat paint when I'm grounding my connections. Keeps things clean and rust-free!









I removed the battery tray and stuff to install the power cable and fuse block.









Cable safely routed through the fender behind the wheel well cover and into the cabin.









Alternator wiring upgraded!









"Big Three" complete. Battery to ground. Alternator to Battery. Engine block to chassis.









Routed the power cable and speaker wire for the front door. I've just looped the speaker cable in the kick panel while I decide what to do with the front speakers.









Routed the power cable along side the stock harness. I will remove the stock amp and build a bracket for the Helix DSP to fit in its place. Ran out of time this weekend!










Thanks for reading! =D


----------



## 3cyltrbo (Apr 11, 2011)

moar


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

I will post more updates as soon as I can get back to my garage!


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

I ordered some more goodies last night to finish out this build. I opted for the following:
- Morel Hybrid 602 components in the front
- Morel Hybrid Integra 602 coaxials in the rear
- JL Audio 600/4 amp for the highs

I spent almost two solid weeks debating amps and after reading review upon review, looking at installs, and even going through the history of SQ competition winners I decided to purchase the 600/4. I know it's a class D, but it appears that they are built well enough nowadays that no one seems to notice. Given the close comparative, my next options were size and efficiency. The 600/4 won that battle hands down (most likely due to class D design requirements). I should have most of the equipment and supporting mods delivered before the weekend! Stay tuned.


----------



## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

I will follow this intently. As the next car with be either the 3.8 Genesis Coupe, or something really fast.


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Made a little more progress tonight, even though I spent most of my day running errands. Hopefully, I'll get more time tomorrow.

I found the source of most of the "buzzing" noise that was coming from the rear shelf with the stock sub installed. This plastic trunk light is just a tad smaller than the metal hole, and causes all kinds of racket when it moves. Being installed just a couple inches away from the sub means that it is always making noise!









My solution was to pick up some LED light strips and tape them to the underside of the rear shelf. They do not make noise and they are 100 times brighter than the original trunk light. Now I can actually see my trunk!









I measured the height differential between the old stock amp and the DSP to see what my options were for creating a mounting surface. I had 3/8" to work with which was plenty for what I had in mind.









I made the mounting platform out of 1/4" fiber board that was exactly the same size as the stock amp.









Then, I riveted the board to the mounting bracket and used some adhesive foam to provide an isolation barrier between the DSP and the car. This also prevents the chassis of the DSP from being grounded with the car and eliminates ground loops. Double win!









DSP is securely mounted on the bracket and ready to be installed in the vehicle.









Using the rest of my hushmat to deaden the outer skin of the passenger side. It really is amazing how much of a difference this stuff makes in quieting your car!









Installed the panels and used some Dynamat Xtreme to cover the inside.









DSP is installed in the car and looks pretty good if I do say so myself!









This is the old stock Infinity "premium" speaker. It's actually not that bad of a speaker...but there is always better! 









Test fitting the new Morel Hybrid Integra 602 coaxial. Perfect fit!









Reinstalled the speaker mounting bracket and used some Dynamat Dynaliner behind the speaker to "soften the blow". This helps absorb the rearward sound waves and prevent that echo and "tinny" sound from surface mount speakers. This should give it a nice mellow, natural sound. I also found a great spot to mount the crossover.









I always solder my connections to the speakers. I do not trust the push-on connectors!









Speaker is installed and hooked up to the crossover. I debated for quite some time between using an active setup (using the crossover in the DSP) or passive (physical crossover) and opted for the passive. The front and rear speakers, while similar, are not identical. Since I only have one 4-channel amp this is the best way to make sure each speaker is at the best crossover point.









Soldering in some speaker wire to RCA adapters. These are some nice JL units that I have used before. The heat shrink tubing is a double wall to seal out any moisture and air.









Two front connections are done and ready for the DSP. The white sheet in the background is a wiring diagram I found on Google. The red arrow points to the remote turn on line from the head unit.









Using some EFX Elite twisted pair RCA cables with braided nylons protectors. I have used these before and really like them.









Rear quarter is all done! Wires are nice and tidy and running exactly where I need them to go. I need to add some more Dynamat to the floor, shelf, support, and wheel well. Since the RCA cables are running so close to the power cable and miscellaneous other wiring for the car's electronics, I wrapped the RCA cables that go from the DSP to the amplifiers in some aluminum shielded fiberglass tubing. This will help keep EMI out of the lines and deliver a nice clean signal to the amplifiers. I have actually used this trick before with great results.









I created a new hole+grommet for the speaker cables and used one existing grommet for the RCA cables. The existing grommet went to the rear latch to lower the rear seats. Since I will have subs installed in this area, I will not need to lower the rear seats from the trunk. I will leave the cable in place that comes up between the seats for the front section. This will allow me to lower the rear seats from inside the vehicle which is perfectly adequate.









Behind the cables here is the 1/0 power cable making its way to the trunk. It goes through a rather large hole that had some foam and wires in it. I wrapped the power cable in some rubber foam to act as a grommet and prevent chafing. The rubber foam is actually rubber insulation used for 1/2" copper pipes and can be found at Home Depot. It works perfectly for this sort of task!









Well, that's all for tonight. Hopefully I will make some substantial progress tomorrow!

-Derek


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Got a bit more done on this project.

Found a neat place to route the USB cable for the DSP. The bottom of the center console has a hole in it that I used to go under the rear seat and over to the DSP.









Cover installed, looking pretty stealth!









Finished up the rear compartment with Dynamat. I have to install the amp rack before I can put the trim back together because the shelf has to be installed before anything else.









Took the passenger side door apart today. The mounting bracket for the speaker is already angled up into the cabin so I decided to "massage" the plastic to fit the new Morel speakers.









Used Dynamat for the outer door skin and Dynaliner behind the speaker. This door is rock solid now! Again, can't believe how much of a difference this stuff makes!









Looking for a way to route the speaker cable through the factory grommet. I really don't want to make new holes in my doors just for the speaker wire. Thankfully the factory harness looks like it can accommodate my needs if I just move a couple of wires around...









I moved one blue pin a few positions to the right (and the corresponding pin on the other end as well) and used my Dremel tool to make a nice opening large enough for the speaker cable. This will do nicely!









Speaker cable is routed through! Honestly, this was by far the hardest part of the job. Moving the factory harness from between the door and body was a huge pain but the end result was well worth the effort!









Installed the crossover on the inner door skin after measuring, measuring, and measuring to find a nice cubby. This position clears everything on the door card and still allows me to route the cables along the factory path. Every cable has a drip loop to prevent the speakers and electronics from drowning with water.









Stock Infinity tweeter versus the Morel tweeter. I forgot to take pictures of installing this in the door. I installed the Morel in exactly the same spot as the Infinity for an off-axis approach. I also set the crossover for the front tweeter to +2db after testing them out for a while on their various settings. This seemed the most matched to me.









Door card has been reinstalled and nothing looks out of the ordinary! The sound coming from this is already 100% better just running from a test amp I had in my garage hooked up to my iPod. I tested everything for rattles or other noises before buttoning things up. I would consider this to be stealth and is exactly what I'm after. Consequently, I removed the Infinity badge from the door speaker grill as well. On to the driver side!









The rest of my electronics should be here tomorrow so I can start on the amp rack. I have tested many locations out, but I think hanging everything under the rear shelf is going to be the best method. I'll probably have to rig up some kind of active cooling in there...

Stay tuned!


----------



## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Nice work! Looks very clean.


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Thanks!


----------



## Lymen (Aug 9, 2011)

Top notch good sir!


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Thank you!


----------



## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

This shaping up very nice . Keep going buddy


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Thanks! I got called in to work this weekend so...not much done. I'll have some more time tomorrow to hopefully get the amp rack done. Feels like it is taking forever!


----------



## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

You know...it's funny. You're build thread looks amazingly like my old one. lol...I went through the fenderwell in the same spot for power, tapped signal, mounted my DSP where the amp used to be and had to move a wire to make room for speaker wire to run into the door.

I have a very detailed build log on Gencoupe.com as well.

Jay


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

JayinMI said:


> You know...it's funny. You're build thread looks amazingly like my old one. lol...I went through the fenderwell in the same spot for power, tapped signal, mounted my DSP where the amp used to be and had to move a wire to make room for speaker wire to run into the door.
> 
> I have a very detailed build log on Gencoupe.com as well.
> 
> Jay


Really? They say great minds think alike. Do you have a link to the thread? Maybe I can steal some more ideas :laugh: :laugh:


EDIT: I just found your build thread. It is really weird that we had the same idea to route the power and mount the DSP in the same spot. I actually thought about going with the bit.1 but decided against it because I have used Helix before and really like it. Did you get rid of your Gen? If so, what did you end up with?

Link to thread: http://www.gencoupe.com/interior-2008-2012/19127-my-progress-stereo-install-9.html


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Finally had some legitimate time today to work on this project again. Today was (mostly) amp rack day.

To get the general shape of the amp rack, I used the shelf carpet to trace out the edge.









Then I cut the wood and fit it to the underside of the shelf. Only some slight trimming was necessary to make it fit.









Test fit the amps and fans on the new rack. I needed to make sure there was plenty of room before I finished the rack.









Making some rear braces and channels for air flow and a place for the cover to mount.









The fans I am using are computer fans. Computer fans love to see a steady 12v for the longest life span. However, car voltage can be anywhere from 9v-16v and over-voltage can drastically shorten the life of the fans. So, I decided to build a simple voltage regulator using a 7812 transistor and a couple of capacitors.









While I waited for the paint to dry on the amp rack, I tackled the mounting location of the 10 farad capacitor. Behind the molded rear panels seemed like a good idea. I also added a fuse near the cap and charged it up properly before connecting it to the car's battery. A large cap in the rear of the car acts like a second battery but it can discharge much faster. This will give the amps the small boost they need during power-robbing bass notes and prevent the lights from dimming. Since I do not have room for an extra battery and, likely, do not need that much power, a large capacitor is a great option.









The amp rack is finally finished drying; I decided to use some black oil-based paint that I had left over from another project. Although you will not see this part, black hides the wood in the event that you catch a glimpse peaking around a corner.









I mounted and routed all of the electronics before installing the amp rack. This made it much easier to keep things clean and organized than trying to do it whilst installed in the vehicle. However, it make it very heavy and hard to keep steady while mounting it!









Amp rack is installed and it fits perfectly!









Time to start on the bezel/cover. I'm using dual layers of 1/4" MDF here because I'm going to fit some Plexiglas windows for the amps. Using multiple layers makes it easier to build a frame for the glass. This is my simple technique, but if anyone knows of some pointers here I would greatly appreciate it!









I clamped everything together and used staples to make sure the two layers were tightly joined.









While the glue on the bezel was drying, I decided to tackle the molded shelf cover and figure out why it rattled. Turns out that the same thing that plagued the parcel shelf, also plagued the cover. The plastic fittings for the child seat anchors and the sub woofer grille rattled in the molded cover. I used some ultra high heat hot glue to secure the plastic pieces in the trim and this solved the problem. Ultra high heat was necessary because this piece sits in the sun and gets a little warm, even with window tint. The glue needs to stay put, even on a hot summer day.









Finished "Dynamatting" the trunk while waiting for glue to dry. Such labor.









The glue in the bezel was finished drying so I turned my attention back to finishing that up by gluing some carpet to the face. Then I trimmed and stapled the carpet for a nice finished look.









Next, I installed the Plexiglas with some glue and trimmed the carpet carefully around the glass to create a frame.

















Here is the finished product. I installed the rest of the trim in the trunk and rear compartment. I also added some carpet in previously bare spots. The amp rack is completely hidden unless you get on the ground and look up. Even then, it is hard to spot! The fans work great and the air is channeled precisely over the heat sinks for the amps and blows the hot air out the sides of the amp rack. This amp rack took me about 20 hours to finish...but it was worth it!










Now I just have to finish the driver side door, finish the subs, and tune/break in my system and enjoy the nice sound of JL/Morel


----------



## sbeezy (Nov 22, 2008)

:thumbsup:That chit looks awesome! makes me miss having a trunk car for an out of the way amp rack!


----------



## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Very nicely done....


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Thanks, guys!


----------



## hot9dog (Mar 23, 2013)

I'm liking this build ! Good attention to detail and a realistic approach towards placement of components. Keep it up! !


----------



## SUX 2BU (Oct 27, 2008)

Great looking build. I'm thinking of something similar for the amp rack for my 2014 Kia Forte Koup. Does your car have trunk rods/bars that span the width of the trunk? I would presume your amp rack just sits against them or?

I also have to give props for the ultra-clean engine bay. Nice work, especially in a state like Wyoming where I'm sure winters are very dirty on the roads.


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

hot9dog said:


> I'm liking this build ! Good attention to detail and a realistic approach towards placement of components. Keep it up! !


Thanks!


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

SUX 2BU said:


> Great looking build. I'm thinking of something similar for the amp rack for my 2014 Kia Forte Koup. Does your car have trunk rods/bars that span the width of the trunk? I would presume your amp rack just sits against them or?
> 
> I also have to give props for the ultra-clean engine bay. Nice work, especially in a state like Wyoming where I'm sure winters are very dirty on the roads.


Thanks! I detail the engine bay about once per month along with the rest of my car. I'm kind of OCD about having a dirty car  My trunk lid supports are single support arms with gas-charged struts so there is nothing going across the bottom of the rear shelf. This picture kind of shows the strut on the passenger side. There is an identical one on the driver side as well. Thanks for looking!


----------



## SUX 2BU (Oct 27, 2008)

Great, thanks for the info. I'd like to delete my trunk rod arms. They suck because they eat up unnecessary room. Wonder if I can retrofit the same struts your car has....


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

SUX 2BU said:


> Great, thanks for the info. I'd like to delete my trunk rod arms. They suck because they eat up unnecessary room. Wonder if I can retrofit the same struts your car has....


I don't see why not! Have to build a couple of mounting brackets for them, but other than that it should be easy.


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

i dig it


----------



## mikechec9 (Dec 1, 2006)

Nice work. Im starting my build this wkend, just waiting for the Lexan to arrive (and for this torrential rain to cease). 

So you bound the plexi to the wood via adhesive only? Does the glass hold sturdy to you? Im wondering if I can get away with the same or would the subwoofer pressure make a difference and cause me to use screws.


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

mikechec9 said:


> Nice work. Im starting my build this wkend, just waiting for the Lexan to arrive (and for this torrential rain to cease).
> 
> So you bound the plexi to the wood via adhesive only? Does the glass hold sturdy to you? Im wondering if I can get away with the same or would the subwoofer pressure make a difference and cause me to use screws.



The Plexiglas in my installation is non-pressurized so the glue only has to hold the glass to the wood. If you are using the Plexiglas to showcase your subs, I would definitely recommend some screws to hold that together. The vibrations and pressure alone would separate the Plexiglas from the wood.


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

simplicityinsound said:


> i dig it


Thank you! I should be finishing this build this weekend!


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Well I got everything done except for the tuning!

Working on the wiring harness for the driver side was a lot easier after doing the passenger side.









Got the Dynamat installed, door sealed, wires run and crossover installed.









I discovered that the remote output from the stock Infinity system is extremely weak and only capable of driving about 100mA of equipment. I also discovered that while 100mA is enough to drive the DSP and the DSP has a separate delayed output for the amps, the DSP does not shut off the amps when the head unit is turned off. This results in a smooth start up sequence, but a loud popping noise when the stereo is shut off. I could simply hook up the amps and relays to the ignition power on source of the car but the amps would start up before the DSP (introducing a start-up pop) and would remain on if I shut off the stereo in this scenario. Instead, I dug through my parts box to come up with a nice electronic circuit.









I spent a few days designing and testing this. The initial remote signal provided by the Infinity deck is amplified through a transistor switch (Solid State Relay is a good way to think about it) to power both the delay circuit as well as the instant-on relay. Once powered, the LM555 timer waits 5 seconds before driving the final transistor and powering the relay that switches the amplifiers on. All electronics instantly turn off when the power from the remote input is removed. This effectively eliminates the loud popping noise while turning the stereo off but keeps the start up delay logic to eliminate the popping noise when turning the equipment on.









I took inventory of the parts I needed and started to test the circuit. You can see some quick schematics I drew here to test the circuit and try some alternative methods to accomplish the logic I needed. In the end, the LM555 timer was the best fit...and I happened to have one in my box!









All parts are assembled and crammed into this tiny box. I added two LEDs to tell me when the first circuit is powered and when the second circuit is powered.









Done!









I installed the delay box under the DSP...and voila! Problem solved.









I also finished installing the subs. I decided to purchase a fabricated box called a "Zenclosure" from Amazon because it was a perfect fit and was within 0.01 cuft of the perfect volume needed for the subs. I couldn't have built a better box for this application!









I'll post more pictures of the tuning and a review of all the equipment this weekend!


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

I spent a LOT of time with this audio system and its tune over the past two weeks....and I'm still not satisfied. Any input you guys have would be MUCH appreciated. For reference, I have two systems I use as comparisons- I own an audioengine 5+ desktop system (with 8" sub) and an audioengine USB amp for my computer. I spend 8-10 hours per day listening to this system at my desk. I also have a full JBL install (Kenwood head unit) in my truck. I have posted the response curve from my truck below using the same measuring equipment that was used in my car. The truck and my desktop speakers sound perfect to me.

Where I'm at and what I think is missing:
- The mid-range (between 800-4000hz) seems too harsh and fatiguing after a period of time (after a few songs)
- The tweeters produce excellent sound up to about 6k, but roll off extremely sharply after that. You can see in my DSP tune that I am practically maxing it out just to keep the roll off smooth.
- I have this really weird gap at 1600hz - I think possibly this is due to the crossover point between the woofer and tweeter but...at 1600hz?
- The mid range seems to be lack luster between 100-250hz as can be seen in the DSP tune.
- The sub woofers seem to be the strongest and most linear part of the system. I had to do very little tuning in this area, but i attribute that to the fact that bass is not as accurate to the human ear as mid and upper range.
- I have the sub woofer crossover set to 80hz and the mid range set to 60hz. I'm using the passive modules from Morel for the highs.
- I verified that the response curve coming from the head unit is flat (for the volume level at which I listen and tune).
- The noise "floor" in the system is incredibly low and there are no other permeation of noise (such as alternator whine, or engine noise).

1. Do you think my troubles are a result of using Class D for the highs?
2. Is it the speakers? I don't have a real way to experiment with on/off axis tweeters because I want to keep the stock tweeter location which is off axis.
3. Is there something wrong with my tune?

At this point, I am seriously considering buying some new speakers...but after having spent a considerable chunk on the Morels...I'm a little shy.


Here is the measuring setup. I use this method to get the response curve "close". Then I use my ears to fine tune for a few hours.









Have the wires coming out of the car to my laptop. I obviously shut the door when doing the tune. This really helps not having to listen to pink noise for an hour lol









Here is the initial response curve. Lots of peaks to fix.









This is phase one with the subs turned off. I was testing the natural roll off of the mid range and tweeters so I could get an idea of ideal crossover usage.









Here is phase two with the subs in play. I have a gap at 800hz that I can't boost without maxing out the 1000hz or 630hz response...so weird.









Here is my resulting tune on the DSP. As you can see, I have some weird stuff going on in the mid range. Some maxes and spikes...and it just doesn't sound right.









For reference, this is the response curve from my truck. I tried to mimic this as much as possible in my car. But still no dice.










If you guys have any ideas, or "tricks" i can try I would greatly appreciate it! I am serious about my audio, but I don't have a lot of opportunities to listen to other systems or reach out to locals due to my location.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## capea4 (Sep 2, 2010)

there are some pretty great "desk top tuners" here that can really help you out. But from what i would say about what i see. I try to never boost a dip, only cut peaks. If the dip is because of the speakers interaction with the space its in, then boosting will only make the speaker move further, and into "clipping", and not produce more SPL. i would ditch those boosts and start playing with phasing. crossover slope effects phase, so try that too, see if the dips fill in that way v/s boosting EQ.


----------



## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

GenGeek said:


> Here is my resulting tune on the DSP. As you can see, I have some weird stuff going on in the mid range. Some maxes and spikes...and it just doesn't sound right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


K.. Just looking at this curve with cuts throughout the freq range, by habit of looking at the Helix screen enough now, my eyes are drawn to the channel(s) selected and linked. You have tweeters selected and linked. So I'm confused why you're applying cuts to just your tweeters in all those freq's rather than mids, etc... If I'm reading this correctly. Does this mean you were trying to apply corrective EQ trims but to the wrong channel(s)? If so, there's your problem. Helix tool is kinda tricky, in making sure you're applying the EQ filters to the appropriate channels.

Also.. You do realize, the Helix 8ch DSP (I have the same) will now run on the latest v3 software, correct? IMHO it's light years improvement on a huge exponential level. I can't recommend upgrading to the latest software tool enough. Might have to start from scratch with a fresh file, but worth it. Careful with your tweets.


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

capea4 said:


> there are some pretty great "desk top tuners" here that can really help you out. But from what i would say about what i see. I try to never boost a dip, only cut peaks. If the dip is because of the speakers interaction with the space its in, then boosting will only make the speaker move further, and into "clipping", and not produce more SPL. i would ditch those boosts and start playing with phasing. crossover slope effects phase, so try that too, see if the dips fill in that way v/s boosting EQ.


Thank you, Capea4, I did not even think about playing with the phasing. I will definitely try that out since it is very easy to do with the Helix. I'll also try just the cutting method to see how well that smooths things out. Thanks again for your input!


----------



## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Was that your bug then with the drivers you were applying EQ to?


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Babs said:


> K.. Just looking at this curve with cuts throughout the freq range, by habit of looking at the Helix screen enough now, my eyes are drawn to the channel(s) selected and linked. You have tweeters selected and linked. So I'm confused why you're applying cuts to just your tweeters in all those freq's rather than mids, etc... If I'm reading this correctly. Does this mean you were trying to apply corrective EQ trims but to the wrong channel(s)? If so, there's your problem. Helix tool is kinda tricky, in making sure you're applying the EQ filters to the appropriate channels.
> 
> Also.. You do realize, the Helix 8ch DSP (I have the same) will now run on the latest v3 software, correct? IMHO it's light years improvement on a huge exponential level. I can't recommend upgrading to the latest software tool enough. Might have to start from scratch with a fresh file, but worth it. Careful with your tweets.



Thank you for taking the time to look at my situation, Babs! The screen shot is quite misleading because I opened the program and file quickly just to get the shot, but it is not representative of my process. I had all speakers selected while tuning. The front and rears are marked as “tweeters” because that is the only way I could get them to use the high-pass functions. The high pass is set to 60hz on the “tweeters” which are actually the component sets. I am using the passive crossovers from Morel to control the real crossover points for the speakers. I also understand that if you select and link different channels, that tune will stay in place unless you adjust the frequency band again even if they are newly linked. For this reason, I set the output levels and crossover points on the channels separately, but I adjusted the frequency bands as a whole system. I did not realize that the Helix supported v3 now. The last time I downloaded that version, it only supported the newest Helix DSP and they said “support coming soon”. Of course that was back in June or so and I will definitely take your advice and upgrade this software!


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Babs said:


> Was that your bug then with the drivers you were applying EQ to?
> 
> 
> Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


I almost wish it were! But no, the screen shot is only accurate in that it shows my overall adjustment. I did have all the channels linked while tuning the frequency band.


----------



## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Ah. Interesting. 

Yes the v3 tool works nicely now with the 8-ch DSP. Give it a go. It's much improved. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Babs said:


> Ah. Interesting.
> 
> Yes the v3 tool works nicely now with the 8-ch DSP. Give it a go. It's much improved.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I definitely will!


----------



## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

GenGeek said:


> Really? They say great minds think alike. Do you have a link to the thread? Maybe I can steal some more ideas :laugh: :laugh:
> 
> 
> EDIT: I just found your build thread. It is really weird that we had the same idea to route the power and mount the DSP in the same spot. I actually thought about going with the bit.1 but decided against it because I have used Helix before and really like it. Did you get rid of your Gen? If so, what did you end up with?
> ...


At the time, I didn't have a table saw at work, so I needed to be able to take mine back and forth. It didn't fit in the shallow trunk of the Gen, so I ended up replacing it with a '12 Kia Rio Hatchback. 

Jay


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

JayinMI said:


> At the time, I didn't have a table saw at work, so I needed to be able to take mine back and forth. It didn't fit in the shallow trunk of the Gen, so I ended up replacing it with a '12 Kia Rio Hatchback.
> 
> Jay


Those are nice and in the same car family too  I used to have a VW GTI that was very similar in styling to that. How are you liking it?


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

I spent the better part of the day reading the freaking manuals and there was no other help in there. However, I did download the newest version of software for the DSP and on that site I found two "Magazines" that audiotec-fischer published that go through the proper tuning of the DSP. Specifically, I found the part that Capea4 was talking about. To quote them:

"Deep narrow dips - Don't try to eliminate deep narrow dips in the frequency response! These dips are mainly a result of cancellation due to phase inversion and cannot be properly removed. In many cases the human hearing will not recognize such cancellations.

Strong narrow peaks - Strong narrow peaks in the frequency response should be definitely eliminated as the human hearing is very sensitive to such acoustical flaws."

They go on to suggest different measuring techniques and curves for the rear versus the front speakers. The new version of the software is also amazing...and I thought the previous version was great! I am really liking the RTA features in the software and being to tune and watch at the same time. This will save a lot of time and help me get a little closer to the right response.

Thanks again, everyone, for your input. I will start over with the tuning given all this new information. This was my first post on this site and I am very grateful for the generosity of the members here!


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Spent a ton of time in my car again. Upgraded the software for the Helix and I have to say ...wow...the new version is amazing. The built in RTA and EQ set saved so much time! I started the tune over from scratch. I got it to sound a little better and on paper, it looks nearly perfect. But it still sounds fake, artificial, hollow, robotic or digitized. I don't know how to describe it since the frequencies and numbers all line up! The sound is just not "warm". I know none of these are official audiophile terms but in comparison to my two reference systems, this one just sucks (although it is still better than the stock infinity system). The subs sound amazing, but when it moves from 200hz through 8khz it's just crap. At this point, I think it has to be the amplifier. Another thing that leads me to believe it is the amplifier is that if I play my system for about an hour or more, it starts sounding like someone is dumping sand into my rear left speaker. I didn't notice it at first because I am only using them for rear fill. If I shut everything off for just a second, then turn it back on it is good again....for another hour. I know it is not a heat problem because it only affects this one channel and if I power cycle the amp, without giving it a chance to cool down, it is fine for about another hour. I have swapped speakers, I have swapped input RCAs...nothing changes. To describe the sound further, the speaker starts to sound smaller and smaller. That is, it starts out sounding like a 6.5"..then degrades into a 4", then 2" trying to reproduce bass notes. It almost sounds like a speaker that is blown, but it takes an hour to get there. It is so weird!

At any rate, I have a spare class A/B in my garage from JBL that I'm going to test out tomorrow and see if anything changes. It is only 50wx4 RMS but that will be enough for testing. If that ends up being the problem, I think I'll trade in the JL 600/4 for the Focal in my original list. 

This is a screen shot of the front speakers after adjusting them in the new software. I tried to cut more than boost as much as possible:









Same thing for the rears except that the roll off in the treble is greater than target because too much treble in the rear pull the stage back. I also rolled off the bottom end greater than target:









You'll notice that the graphs and eqs are quite a bit different between the two...it seems that the high range amp is not being consistent. I spent about 30 minutes adjusting the front and rear components and the results were always off to a degree that is statistically significant. The subs on the other hand...had nearly the same adjustments in the same bands as the original, and I only had to adjust them once because the next 5 runs after that were exactly the same; there were no deviations in the sub response. This is another factor that leads me to believe that the 600/4 amp is to blame.









I didn't have enough time to swap the amp out tonight, but I will get that done tomorrow for sure and let you guys know my results! :worried:


----------



## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

Great build! My son loves these cars.


----------



## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

Did you align and phase with mono pink noise? 

Can you post the RTA results of all L and all R channels?
Also are you using spatial averaging or just centered?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...audio-discussion/210506-soundstage-width.html

Have a look in this thread where sqnut is dishing out good advice, I also overcame harshness in 1k - 4k region. After several pages it is all curve and response talk. My issue was different however, as the sweeps werent giving me the right results. Switching to the RTA with spatial averaging solved my problems.

Personally, I think the roll off should start around 1khz or below to sound friendly to the ears. 
For what its worth, this is sort of what i have at the moment;


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

lsm said:


> Great build! My son loves these cars.


Thank you!!


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

Kazuhiro said:


> Did you align and phase with mono pink noise?
> 
> Can you post the RTA results of all L and all R channels?
> Also are you using spatial averaging or just centered?
> ...



Thank you VERY much for the advice, Kazuhiro. I used a mono pink noise recorded at 0db from an SQ CD I've had for a very long time. I have not tried tuning left and right separately, yet, but I will certainly try that as well as check out that thread. I was using the RTA built in to the Helix program and I'm not sure how to switch it to spatial averaging. I can do that on the other RTA program I have, though, so I'll try that as well. Thanks again!


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

I installed my spare class A/B amp (loosely) and reset the tune on the DSP to flat. I took a base line reading and it was nearly flat without adjustments. I did some very minor tuning; just a few cuts here and there and got the response curve I was looking for. I didn't even think about getting screen shots tonight because I was in a hurry... I had to take my daughter trick or treating 

The sound was fantastic. The A/B amp really brought those speakers to life and gave me the sound I was looking for. I've decided that the JL 600/4 is either faulty or just a bad design for mids and highs. Hopefully it was just faulty (especially with the rear speaker cutting out like it did). Luckily, I was able to do a no-hassle trade in on my 600/4 and I opted to get the Focal FPS 4160. Now I just have to wait for parts (again). The Focal is nearly twice the size of the JL so...I'll have to figure out something new with my amp rack in the back. At least I have a few days to figure that out and come up with a design! I fear that I will have to go with an under-the-floor install for this equipment.


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

To go with my previous post, I took some screen shots of the "non-eq'd" speaker response with both amps. These pictures don't really do justice to the difference you can hear between the amps. I also found this thread from ErinH that was a HUGE help to me and I hope it will be of great help to others: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/163914-essentials-sound-quality-imho.html

This is the "flat" response from the JL 600/4 on just the front speakers:









This is the "flat" response from the JBL GTO-5EZ that I had in my garage:


----------



## GenGeek (Sep 14, 2015)

To get some closure on this - here are some final pics of the build and tune. The new amp completely solved the problems I was having and now my system sounds fantastic! I did have to scrap the amp rack I made because the Focal simply did not fit:









So I decided to just get rid of the spare and place the amps there. Really, there was no other choice. The spare tire still fits above the floor between the subs and rear lid, so I figure I can just throw it in if I ever take a long trip. Otherwise, I can just have my wife bring it to me should I end up needing it.
Measured and placed the amps, just to make sure it would work:









Then routed new cables and wires. Sometimes, I can't help my OCD:









Reinstalled all the panels to make sure it fit. For the most part, I was able to keep the stealth look; you only notice it if you pick up the carpet....or sit inside to listen 









Made an MDF tower to replace the spare to make sure the floor would not cave in with groceries or bodies. I even routered the interior and reused the original tire bolt to secure it. It took about 4 hours and 9 layers of MDF to get this right:









Here is the best part: The new Focal amp's response was very close to my curve right out of the box. This is a much better looking RTA than the JL!









After just a little tuning (this image only shows the front stage for the sake of brevity), I was able to get the curve nearly perfect:









Here is a more comprehensive picture. This picture shows average measurements from multiple locations of my reference system (mustard yellow) versus the average measurements of my new system (blue). I used Room EQ Wizard to perform all the measurements, graphs, and averages. What a fantastic piece of software that is!









I am now extremely satisfied with my audio install! I know there are debates that all amps sound the same, but I believe I have attached pictorial evidence that amps can, and do, sound different. I hope that my original JL was simply defective because, I want to like JL as a company. I like the 1200/1 and the two 10W3v3s that I have. Having said that, the Focal 4160 is a BEAST of an amplifier! Thanks to everyone for your help and advice!


----------



## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Nice!! Yes indeed REW is a great tool. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

