# Solder or Crimp?



## ringo (Nov 27, 2007)

I have some 1/0 that I have to terminate along with a bunch of RCAs that I am making so I am willing to spend a few $$ on a decent iron. Should I just crimp the 1/0 or solder it with a suitable iron? For something that big, does one start to use a butane torch?

I looked at the soldering threads but saw no mention of larger cable..

Thanks


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## Powers (Apr 10, 2008)

Solder it. I tinned my 1/0 last night to fit it into ring terminals, then will heat shrink onto it.


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

lilmsprelude said:


> IMO crimping just does NOT hang onto the wire, in a fitting that size, good enough for the car audio environment.


If your crimps dont hang on you are either using the wrong terminals for the wire or not crimping it right.


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## kimokalihi (May 27, 2007)

I hate crimping! Makes it look like crap and never holds. I usually crimp it and then melt a ton of solder into the crimp and into the wire as much as I can to get it to hold. But I like your idea and will give that a try.


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## ringo (Nov 27, 2007)

lilmsprelude said:


> I always solder those larger connections.... this sounds dumb but I found the most efficient way is to rough up and clean the inside of the copper fitting--- holding on to the piece with a pair of vice grips-- then coat the inside with flux
> 
> prepare your wire by stripping it back and putting on any shrink tube, conduit, flex, etc you are going to use-- give the bare wire a twist to make sure it is tight and put a lil flux on it to encourage the solder to penetrate it.
> 
> Next heat up the fitting withOUT the wire in it until it is warm enough to melt the solder--puddle up about a 1/3 of the fitting with melted solder and push your prepared wire into it. hold still and let it cool.... never had a failed connection yet and looks a hell of a lot better than crimping... IMO crimping just does NOT hang onto the wire, in a fitting that size, good enough for the car audio environment.


Thanks for the directions...


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

I have been through this discussion in my profession a number of times. I do marine electrical, and the ABYC which is the authority on boat building recommends crimp terminations over soldering.The exert from the ABYC standards reads
*ABYC standards (E-11.16.3.7), “Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit”.*

The claim is that a proper crimp termination is a better mechanical connection and is more resistant to corrosion.


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## Vestax (Aug 16, 2005)

Soldering a 0 awg connection would take me all day with the irons that I have. :blush:

I rather save myself the trouble and connect it with a coupler or fuse holder. Looks cleaner than a fat knot.


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## ringo (Nov 27, 2007)

jp88 said:


> I have been through this discussion in my profession a number of times. I do marine electrical, and the ABYC which is the authority on boat building recommends crimp terminations over soldering.The exert from the ABYC standards reads
> *ABYC standards (E-11.16.3.7), “Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit”.*
> 
> The claim is that a proper crimp termination is a better mechanical connection and is more resistant to corrosion.


More resistant to corrosion?


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## QtrHorse (Oct 17, 2007)

kimokalihi said:


> I hate crimping! Makes it look like crap and never holds. I usually crimp it and then melt a ton of solder into the crimp and into the wire as much as I can to get it to hold. But I like your idea and will give that a try.



You must be doing it wrong or not using the correct crimping tool then. Using a hammer or vise is not the correct way to make a crimp connection. I use either a heavy duty battery lug crimper (the kind that look like a pair of bold cutters) or a 12 ton hand held hydraulic crimping tool. Either work very well for making a solid crimp that will not come undone. Look at the pick below and tell me if that looks bad (all the connections were crimped). Why would a good crimp not hold? You are compressing the copper and should be leaving a flared end that should not pull through. 

It is debated over and over again to which has more strength. I believe the perfect connection would be to fill the ring 1/4 of the way with solder and then insert the wire and then crimp right behind that. That connection should never come undone.


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## P.T.R. (Apr 11, 2008)

I crimp THEN solder. Don't know it if does anything extra but it sure is fun!


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## kimokalihi (May 27, 2007)

QtrHorse said:


> You must be doing it wrong or not using the correct crimping tool then. Using a hammer or vise is not the correct way to make a crimp connection. I use either a heavy duty battery lug crimper (the kind that look like a pair of bold cutters) or a 12 ton hand held hydraulic crimping tool. Either work very well for making a solid crimp that will not come undone. Look at the pick below and tell me if that looks bad (all the connections were crimped). Why would a good crimp not hold? You are compressing the copper and should be leaving a flared end that should not pull through.
> 
> It is debated over and over again to which has more strength. I believe the perfect connection would be to fill the ring 1/4 of the way with solder and then insert the wire and then crimp right behind that. That connection should never come undone.


You got me there! I don't have a crimping tool. Just a vice which recently broke so now I have nothing.


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

ringo said:


> More resistant to corrosion?


yes to a degree. with a proper crimp there is no room for air between the terminal and the wire. no air minimal corrosion. since copper doesn't actually corrode it oxidizes


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## circa40 (Jan 20, 2008)

I don't think there's nothing wrong with crimping, its just some people are not doing it correctly. they either use the wrong size barrel or they don't have the correct crimper. 

I used to crimp all the time when I installed at a shop, and I never had an issue with connectors falling off (that I know of).
But for my own car as well as my friends cars, I only solder/heat shrink.


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## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

jp88 said:


> yes to a degree. with a proper crimp there is no room for air between the terminal and the wire. no air minimal corrosion. since copper doesn't actually corrode it oxidizes



Compression style crimpers coupled with seamless connectors and some weatherproof heat shrink is the hot ticket and provides an indestructible mechanical connection. The crimp is basically cold welded and the longevity of the connection is never in question. Solder yields an extremely poor mechanical connection, especially in the automotive/marine environment. I even use smaller compression crimpers for all 22ga-12ga wires where he dies on the crimpers actually provide a strain relief on the wire by forming the nylon of the connector around the wires insulation. They are made by a company called AMP. They make tools for Navy vessels and such. I've even seen some used on ebay for around $100.

Kimokalihi-where did you get those covered sheaths in that pic? That is a brilliant idea.


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## QtrHorse (Oct 17, 2007)

lilmsprelude said:


> IMO crimping just does NOT hang onto the wire, in a fitting that size, good enough for the car audio environment.


I was not doubting you because you are a female, I didn't even know that.

You just made the above statement and it is not true. I personally believe you get a stronger connection in the larger crimp rings. You have much more material to crimp and it is thicker than the smaller connections. I normally crimp and solder the smaller connections. When I first started making custom cables and what not, I was doubtful about the strength of just crimping. I make up a cable, bolted it to a heavy steel work table and pulled/ tugged/ jerked on it as hard as I could and the crimp never failed. I have no idea what force that equals to but I bet it's over 500lbs.



A8AWD;

Were you maybe refering to my picture? If you were, what sheaths are you talking about?


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## kimokalihi (May 27, 2007)

A8AWD said:


> Compression style crimpers coupled with seamless connectors and some weatherproof heat shrink is the hot ticket and provides an indestructible mechanical connection. The crimp is basically cold welded and the longevity of the connection is never in question. Solder yields an extremely poor mechanical connection, especially in the automotive/marine environment. I even use smaller compression crimpers for all 22ga-12ga wires where he dies on the crimpers actually provide a strain relief on the wire by forming the nylon of the connector around the wires insulation. They are made by a company called AMP. They make tools for Navy vessels and such. I've even seen some used on ebay for around $100.
> 
> Kimokalihi-where did you get those covered sheaths in that pic? That is a brilliant idea.


You're asking the wrong guy lol. It's QtrHorse's work, not mine. I don't know where he got them. Or she? I would like to know though and also how do I get that labeled heatshrink and is there a way I can label them myself?


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## QtrHorse (Oct 17, 2007)

kimokalihi said:


> You're asking the wrong guy lol. It's QtrHorse's work, not mine. I don't know where he got them. Or she? I would like to know though and also how do I get that labeled heatshrink and is there a way I can label them myself?


First off, I'm a He.

Second, I'm not sure what sheaths you are refering to. I bought the polarity (POS & NEG) heat shrink bands from Wranglernw.com. I don't see them on their site anymore and not sure if they still sell them. They came in bags of 10 and only in two different sizes, 1/2 and 3/4in I believe.

You can also buy a Dymo RhynoPro label maker. They sell heat shrink label cartridges for them. The printer and label cartridge are expensive though. You can get a model 3000 for $99 or a model 5000 for around $150 and the label cartridges will cost you $15-$35 each with the heat shrink labels being the most expensive. I bought my RhynoPro 5000 from Ebay for $65 shipped. It is a very nice hand held label maker. The labels adhere very well to most anything and the print does not smudge or fade easily.


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## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

Didn't know what to call them so I called it a sheath I was referring to the covers over the lugs....


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## QtrHorse (Oct 17, 2007)

A8AWD said:


> Didn't know what to call them so I called it a sheath I was referring to the covers over the lugs....


The protective red and black boots? If that is what you mean, you can get them from Waytekwire.com or direct from the source for a cheaper cost would be, vtwarehouse.com. Both have a minimum dollar amount with Vtwarehouse being the higher of the two. Waytek is $5 and VT is $15. Wateks minimum is per part number and VT's is for a total and I believe you can include shipping in the amount.


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## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

Thank you.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

lilmsprelude said:


> I can appreciate your OPINION QTRHorse, as I do expect you to return the same. I do not think you are correct in telling me I am wrong however.
> 
> I would like to bring to your attention that crimping, with a tool like I posted previously, OR the other type of barrel crimps (-that crimps at 4 points- Or MORE,) is ONLY compressing the wire into a tighter diameter area than it was originally inserted in, and hence you are NOT increasing the area of contact for the transfer of molecules. While crimping works, and it is widely used, if you are looking for an absolute resolution to an electrical connection....again, to re-itterate, we MUST focus on the job and materials used and the desired outcome and use of the items being joined.
> 
> ...


Because of this I'd like to add that it's better to straighten out the wire going into the connector to be crimped. Crimping it while woven in a spiral form will resist the crimp and wiggle it way straight and loose afterwards giving you a bad connection. I'd probably even cut away some extra insulation (at least 3/4") so that it has freedom to uncoil at the beginning of the crimp also. Then just heavy wall heat shrink it all after tinning the finished connector, if you have the tools to do it.


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## QtrHorse (Oct 17, 2007)

lilmsprelude said:


> I can appreciate your OPINION QTRHorse, as I do expect you to return the same. I do not think you are correct in telling me I am wrong however.
> 
> I would like to bring to your attention that crimping, with a tool like I posted previously, OR the other type of barrel crimps (-that crimps at 4 points- Or MORE,) is ONLY compressing the wire into a tighter diameter area than it was originally inserted in, and hence you are NOT increasing the area of contact for the transfer of molecules. While crimping works, and it is widely used, if you are looking for an absolute resolution to an electrical connection....again, to re-itterate, we MUST focus on the job and materials used and the desired outcome and use of the items being joined.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to doubt your electrical experience but you did make a statement that is not true. I only quoted the statement that you made that I felt was not true. I will quote it again below, just in case you did not read my post properly. Crimping does make for a solid strong connection when done properly. I was not refering to electrical conduity, transfer of molecules or anything else that you might think of to say. I stated that a good crimp will hold onto the wire just fine. Yes, you are compressing the individual wire when crimped, that is why it will hold. You are compressing them and then leaving a flared/ non compressed section in front of it. This non compressed section is not going to pull though that crimped section unless a large amount of force in the opposite direction from the attached point is delivered to it. That is not going to happen in any car audio install unless you are trying to lift your motor out of the engine compartment with a engine block ground cable as the lift point/ device.




> IMO crimping just does NOT hang onto the wire, in a fitting that size


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## rekd0514 (Sep 24, 2006)

This is the thread you guys need. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35618&highlight=crimping

Here is the tool you need to get. 










https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?Next::1:UNDEF:OR:terms::PA


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

lilmsprelude said:


> IMO (In My Opinion AND EXPERIENCE In the licensed electrical industry) a proper solder connection, that is PROPERLY PREPARED, is still the way to go,
> 
> connection.


Those are 2 very big ifs. I dont doubt your credentials or abilities, however I think that as a whole most people most people are not going to make a proper solder joint to start with.

I can remember my soldering instructor in US Navy Electronics Technician "A" school showing us a book (very thick book) with nothing but pictures of different types of bad solder joints. That being said milspecs (just like the ABYC specs I quoted earlier) do not allow the use of a solder for a mechanical connection. 
Furthermore I chanllenge anyone to pull a quality, properly crimped connector off 1/0 cable with anything short of a truck or a winch.


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## QtrHorse (Oct 17, 2007)

I don't like those hammer crimpers but that is only because I use either of the two tools below.

Crimper and Hydraulic Crimper


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## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

jp88 said:


> Those are 2 very big ifs. I dont doubt your credentials or abilities, however I think that as a whole most people most people are not going to make a proper solder joint to start with.
> 
> I can remember my soldering instructor in US Navy Electronics Technician "A" school showing us a book (very thick book) with nothing but pictures of different types of bad solder joints. That being said milspecs (just like the ABYC specs I quoted earlier) do not allow the use of a solder for a mechanical connection.
> Furthermore I chanllenge anyone to pull a quality, properly crimped connector off 1/0 cable with anything short of a truck or a winch.


Crimp 2 1/0 ga seamless lugs with a compression crimper, one on each end of the wire...attach each end to 2 M1A1 Abrams and drive in opposite directions  The wire will break...the crimp won't fail. the wire and connector become cold welded becoming one...cut the crimped portion on a band saw and you can see it clearly. The car/marine environment is a different ballgame because of temp extremes and vibration just to name a few...

As for losing surface area on multi stranded cable...that is very true, but I have and will trade it for installation longevity any time.

AMP brand tools and connectors here...these crimpers can occasionally be found used on ebay... http://www.tycoelectronics.com/components/ The tetra ratcheting compression crimper tool is great for 12-16ga...check them out.


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## ringo (Nov 27, 2007)

Well, I tried the solder route and had no luck. I would fill the connector with solder about 2/3 of the way, get it nice and hot, insert the wire and it would either stop and not go in all the way and/or not come back out. I melted the insulation 3 times and then thought i had it but then it got stuck.

I went and found the mallet.

I will save the soldering for the speaker terminals and small wire connections (wire to wire).


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

+ 1 solder 

When you crimp, ultimately you are still making a connection which remains two separate pieces.

Ever dropped a gob of solder onto a hot terminal then let it cool? Try picking it off, good luck, it is stuck there, it is part of the piece. When the wire strands 'absorb' (capillary action causes the solder to close the voids between the strands) the solder from the pool in the terminal an anaerobic connection forms.. oxygen plays a role in corrosion no?


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> + 1 solder
> 
> When you crimp, ultimately you are still making a connection which remains two separate pieces.
> 
> Ever dropped a gob of solder onto a hot terminal then let it cool? Try picking it off, good luck, it is stuck there, it is part of the piece.


not true and not true.

If you simply drop melted solder on a terminal it is easily removed, even after cooled. A proper solder joint the solder has to be wicked onto surfaces that are already heated. It is much more difficult to make a proper solder joint than a proper crimp connection given the proper tools. This is the main reason I highly recommend crimping for those who may or may not be proficient in soldering. 

I think you will find that almost ALL failed crimps are due to either improper tools, or improper or very poorly made connectors.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> not true and not true.


That is bushleague

I am going to FILM it tomorrow and I will put it on youtube to DEMONSTRATE that this is a fact

To be honest, your statement makes me wonder if you have ever soldered a terminal


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

jp88 said:


> not true and not true.
> 
> If you simply drop melted solder on a terminal it is easily removed, even after cooled. A proper solder joint the solder has to be wicked onto surfaces that are already heated. It is much more difficult to make a proper solder joint than a proper crimp connection given the proper tools. This is the main reason I highly recommend crimping for those who may or may not be proficient in soldering.
> 
> I think you will find that almost ALL failed crimps are due to either improper tools, or improper or very poorly made connectors.


x2.....


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> That is bushleague
> 
> I am going to FILM it tomorrow and I will put it on youtube to DEMONSTRATE that this is a fact
> 
> To be honest, your statement makes me wonder if you have ever soldered a terminal


This demo will be a 0 gauge wire on a heavy walled terminal correct?


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

oh quick, qualify the test proceudre in case it proves you wrong

No, it will be 4 ga. with two separate varietys of commonly available connectors. Since I fully intend to destroy a connector to make my point it would be useless to use the nice bits out of my personal stash.


But seriously, this is easy to understand. Sure, a crimp connector edit - if properly executed- will last for probably the life of its intended purpose.. however, this does not preclude soldering from being the better form of mechanical connection.

You guys grasped on an inconsequential sentence and missed the entire 'same piece anaerobic bond' spiel which was the real meat of the post.

But again, I will demonstrate so the fact cannot be disputed

I'm not bagging on crimping because it works, I use it all the time.. but in my own personal projects, solder all the way.


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## ringo (Nov 27, 2007)

Hell, I'll watch a video...but I am doing it on 0 guage..not 4. I don't think it would make a difference.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> oh quick, qualify the test proceudre in case it proves you wrong
> 
> No, it will be 4 ga. with two separate varietys of commonly available connectors. Since I fully intend to destroy a connector to make my point it would be useless to use the nice bits out of my personal stash.
> 
> ...


A crimped metal to metal bond is air tight and good enough to never corrode where it matter leaving no chance for increased resistance over time. Any corrosion to the outside none conducting area of the cable is a good thing since it forms a layer of protection for the wire (this is the reason why copper is used on paint for the bottom of ships and why your copper water pipes don't waste away). 

Taking all that into consideration it makes more sense to buy a few dollar crimping tool and have a full proof working connection versus hoping you did a good solder job versus a cold weld with your creme brulee torch, melting the insulation to hell. Hardly bush league.


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> That is bushleague
> 
> I am going to FILM it tomorrow and I will put it on youtube to DEMONSTRATE that this is a fact
> 
> To be honest, your statement makes me wonder if you have ever soldered a terminal


I am usually not one to throw credentials out but since they are being questioned I will. 

I spent 52 weeks in US Navy Electronics Technician "A" School where I graduated near the top on my class. I served for 4 yrs in the capacity of a Electronics technician. After I finished my enlistment I began working as a marine electronics tecnician/installer for the next 6 yrs. For the last 2 years I have been running my own Marine Electrical business, In which I do OEM wiring for several small custom boat builders. In the past 2 years I have wired a number of boats ranging from 42 feet to 61 feet. I do beleive I have done a little soldering and maybe a couple crimps.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

BoostedNihilist said:


> When you crimp, ultimately you are still making a connection which remains two separate pieces.





BoostedNihilist said:


> That is bushleague


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## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

A8AWD said:


> Crimp 2 1/0 ga seamless lugs with a compression crimper, one on each end of the wire...attach each end to 2 M1A1 Abrams and drive in opposite directions  The wire will break...the crimp won't fail. the wire and connector become cold welded becoming one...cut the crimped portion on a band saw and you can see it clearly. The car/marine environment is a different ballgame because of temp extremes and vibration just to name a few...
> 
> As for losing surface area on multi stranded cable...that is very true, but I have and will trade it for installation longevity any time.
> 
> AMP brand tools and connectors here...these crimpers can occasionally be found used on ebay... http://www.tycoelectronics.com/components/ The tetra ratcheting compression crimper tool is great for 12-16ga...check them out.


This is not about opinion. It is a fact that the correct crimp is the proper way to make a connection that lasts.

BoostedNihilist, are you using pliers on a 4 ga terninal to make your crimp...WTF.

This thread should be put to sleep.


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## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

jp88 said:


> I am usually not one to throw credentials out but since they are being questioned I will.
> 
> I spent 52 weeks in US Navy Electronics Technician "A" School where I graduated near the top on my class. I served for 4 yrs in the capacity of a Electronics technician. After I finished my enlistment I began working as a marine electronics tecnician/installer for the next 6 yrs. For the last 2 years I have been running my own Marine Electrical business, In which I do OEM wiring for several small custom boat builders. In the past 2 years I have wired a number of boats ranging from 42 feet to 61 feet. I do beleive I have done a little soldering and maybe a couple crimps.



JP, don't even bother....


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

It all depends on what you call a crimp, and what you call soldering. I've seen people say to "fill the connector with solder then stick the wire in" which will give you a cold solder joint, and TONS of resistance. You have to heat the wire so that the solder will bond to the copper and the connector; this has the added benefit of melting the insulation of the wire because it will melt way before the copper is hot enough to bond to the solder.

also, putting the connector in a vise, putting the wire in it and squeezing the life out of it is NOT a crimp, it is a squash, and is just as bad as the cold solder joint I just mentioned.

Your best bet is to use a hydraulic crimper, with the proper die in it, 10,000 PSI will make a 100% perfect mechanical and electrical bond. this is how high voltage, high current connections are made, and the people doing them have the option of soldering if they want to, but it is NOT as good a connection in the real world.


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## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

A compression crimping tool in action....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uvl1aWrkbI0&feature=related


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Sassmastersq said:


> It all depends on what you call a crimp, and what you call soldering. I've seen people say to "fill the connector with solder then stick the wire in" which will give you a cold solder joint, and TONS of resistance. You have to heat the wire so that the solder will bond to the copper and the connector; this has the added benefit of melting the insulation of the wire because it will melt way before the copper is hot enough to bond to the solder.
> 
> also, putting the connector in a vise, putting the wire in it and squeezing the life out of it is NOT a crimp, it is a squash, and is just as bad as the cold solder joint I just mentioned.
> 
> *Your best bet is to use a hydraulic crimper*, with the proper die in it, 10,000 PSI will make a 100% perfect mechanical and electrical bond. this is how high voltage, high current connections are made, and the people doing them have the option of soldering if they want to, but it is NOT as good a connection in the real world.


You gonna buy me one uh dems? 

Not saying you are wrong but the best is not needed here. I think for car audio, a vise crimping tool like the one listed before from the welding shop is more then adequate. If distribution blocks and amps and everything else can get by with a simple screw down connection then that tool has to be good enough also.


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

most electrical suppliers (who also sell real crimp on lugs, not the purely decorative car audio ones) will let you borrow or rent the proper crimper and die


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> In which I do OEM wiring for several small custom boat builders.


hello, mcfly, capillary action

whoever said this



> BoostedNihilist, are you using pliers on a 4 ga terninal to make your crimp...WTF.


Seriously? really? did you read? really? I *SOLDER* my connections because, when you pressure fit two pieces of anything together, the only thing that is holding them together is the pressure. Can you say that this is not a fact? This is not a difficult concept to understand.


When you solder things together it's like that spice girls song and two become one. 

If you do not have a multi hundred dollar tool sitting in your garage.... solder, you can get the tool... a propane torch, for like 13 bucks... with a canister. Ask yourself, how many 0 gauge connecters are you going to crimp with this tool? 2 - 3 maybe? solder

and this was good point too


> It all depends on what you call a crimp, and what you call soldering. I've *seen people say to "fill the connector with solder then stick the wire in"* which will give you a cold solder joint, and TONS of resistance.


This works.. but you have to tin the 0 gauge before you fill the connector a bit with solder. This way the connection is truely secure


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> hello, mcfly, capillary action
> how many 0 gauge connecters are you going to crimp with this tool? 2 - 3 maybe? solder


And heirin lies the problem. If you do 2-3 solder joints you probably don't know how to solder. which is why I tell people to buy a $20 compression crimper from a welding supply store, and crimp. 

We could have a very long discusion on the merits of soldering and crimping, however the fact remains that if you don't do it often, You would be better off getting the proper equipment (is 7 more dollars going to really kill anyone?) and crimp these connections.


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## phatredpt (Feb 22, 2006)

Holy cow this comes up so often... and the debate is always heated! 

Proper application of a terminal is always the better idea 

Soldering of terminals intended to be crimped has many downfalls and those are recognized by several agency's research engineers and studies, including but not limited to the DOD (Department of Defense), FAA (Federal Aviation Administration), and the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers). as well as the UL and CSA.
If you sell to, manufacture for, do repair under their jurisdiction, or seek their underwriting approval you forbidden from soldering flexible wires in a crimp terminal.

It IS a fact..there are very good reasons (some of which I know but am not going to rehash since it would just start a debate when there is actually none to be had...) 

Do what you feel comfortable with... but those are the facts folks!

I would do a crimp with a dull chisel and hammer on a concrete floor (and have.. it actually doesn't turn out too bad ) knowing what I know now! 

Oh ya I forgot... those wires carrying all the juice coming into your house???
Crimped!


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> And heirin lies the problem. If you do 2-3 solder joints you probably don't know how to solder. which is why I tell people to buy a $20 compression crimper from a welding supply store, and crimp.


This is a good point, I can agree with your logic here... However, even though crimpers look simple enough, if you use them all the time like you say, you would know that you can mess it up.. and if you do it gets just as messy as a crappy solder connection.



> We could have a very long discusion on the merits of soldering and crimping,


You started that here


> not true and not true.


If you read back you clearly contradicted your very own logic. I won't point it out because that's the education systems job, but I did find it rather amusing. 

Here are the facts people make up your own minds about which is better

1. a compression fitting is still two separate pieces, it is reliable, easy and lots of people use it.
2. a properly soldered connection is a completely secure connection which is impervious to penetration.. period. 
3. The stress and vibration over time will not cause strands of the wire to break around the perimiter of the joint if soldered

this came in



> Soldering of terminals intended to be crimped has many downfalls and those are recognized by several agency's research engineers and studies, including but not limited to the DOD (Department of Defense), FAA (Federal Aviation Administration), and the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers). as well as the UL and CSA.
> If you sell to, manufacture for, do repair under their jurisdiction, or seek their underwriting approval you forbidden from soldering flexible wires in a crimp terminal.


I would point out that none of those agencies made a judgement as to which method was better, only made the obvious declaration that the correct piece should be used in the correct manner...


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## phatredpt (Feb 22, 2006)

BoostedNihilist said:


> T
> Here are the facts people make up your own minds about which is better
> 
> 1. a compression fitting is still two separate pieces, it is reliable, easy and lots of people use it.
> ...


They did in fact make that judgment... a soldered cable connection is absolutely NOT allowed on any aircraft and most DOD applications that I have seen, since they are known to fail based on historical evidence.


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

The ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council) has also made a judgment on this as well. The even felt it necessary to put it in 3 different chapters of the electrical section of their standards manual. The most emphatic being section E-8-8.15.19 which reads *Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. *
and
* NOTE when a stranded conductor is soldered, the soldered portion of the conductor becomes a solid strand conductor, and flexing can cause the conductor to break at the end of the solder joint.*

I do believe that is why solid conductor wire is not used in a motor vehicle.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

Do you people read what you post?

this is your original statement



> *Soldering of terminals intended to be crimped has many downfalls and those are recognized by several agency's research engineers and studies, including but not limited to the DOD* (Department of Defense), FAA (Federal Aviation Administration), and the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers). as well as the UL and CSA.
> If you sell to, manufacture for, do repair under their jurisdiction, or seek their underwriting approval you forbidden from soldering flexible wires in a crimp terminal.


Please pay particular attention to the above bold statement. I wonder what they have to say about solder connections which are intended to be soldered.



> They did in fact make that judgment... *a soldered cable connection is absolutely NOT allowed on any aircraft *and most DOD applications that I have seen, since they are known to fail based on historical evidence.


That is not what your initial statement says. If I have to explain this to you I seriously question your reading comprehension abilities. Battery cables in General Aviation aircraft are soldered.. I know because I went out to my hanger and looked at my aircraft battery terminals last night.. good try though.

I like how when logic wins out you guys use hyperbole, just plain incorrect facts, and nonexistant statistics. You must think the readers here are really stupid if you want them to buy the BS you are selling. Throw in a little piss poor reading comprehension and some opinions based on an incorrect understanding of words and I can see why you might believe why crimping is better than soldering


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

That's it, I'm ripping out my brass terminals on my amps and soldering the cable right to the board, copper to copper baby, no half ass'ing here.


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## phatredpt (Feb 22, 2006)

BoostedNihilist said:


> Do you people read what you post?
> 
> this is your original statement
> 
> ...


Solder if you want sir... if that makes you comfortable... did YOU read that in my first post?

I design for those industries mentioned, so I didn't pull the info out of the thin air... and like I said before... this always ends up in a debate

The fact you try to look for ways to twist peoples words to make a point and then attempt to make everyone look like an idiot speaks volumes in my opinion... 

I for one am not impressed even a tiny bit.. sorry :blush:

I now turn this thread back over to the attempt of the OP to get useful information!


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

phatredpt said:


> The fact you try to look for ways to twist peoples words to make a point and then attempt to make everyone look like an idiot speaks volumes in my opinion...
> 
> I for one am not impressed even a tiny bit.. sorry :blush:
> 
> I now turn this thread back over to the attempt of the OP to get useful information!


I concur


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> The fact you try to look for ways to twist peoples words to make a point and then attempt to make everyone look like an idiot speaks volumes in my opinion...


I don't twist your words, I read what you write and I attack the logic of the statement... no twisting. If you want to make a point, make sure you have your semantics right and proper before getting up on the soapbox.

I don't care if you are impressed or not. 

If you're worried about someone making you look like an idiot I would take a look in the mirror as the real problem will be staring you in the face...

furthermore, I would add that if you knew about OEM manufacturers you would know that they don't do anything strictly because it is better. Better is a nice spinoff, but cheaper always wins out.. this is why crimp connections are common in the OEM world. I restoed my MGB last year and the terminals were soldered, and still fine. Yet, my 1985 toyota terminals, are crimped, and completely corroded.... and in need of replacment
.. these will be soldered. 



> I now turn this thread back over to the attempt of the OP to get useful information!


I am so glad the thread has your permission....

but by useful information, do you mean only the information that you provide?


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## spydertune (Sep 9, 2005)

jp88 said:


> I spent 52 weeks in US Navy Electronics Technician "A" School where I graduated near the top on my class.


I am going take USN training & commercial yacht wiring citation FTW!

To that I will add, the Bell System (AT&T) used mechanical crimps only on all outdoor connections. High reliability and long service life were a must. Solder if you must but you sure don't need to if you crimp correctly.

I own a Thomas & Betts TBM8 crimper that costs $1500 new! However, if you keep a watch on that auction site, you can snag one for under $100. (I got mine for $40!) It will crimp copper plumbing pipe as easily as standard terminals -

TBM8

TBM8 New *** Ack! ***


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> I own a Thomas & Betts TBM8 crimper that costs $1500 new! However, if you keep a watch on that auction site, you can snag one for under $100. (I got mine for $40!)


Conversely, a propane torch and solder can be purhcased any day of the week from wal-mart for under 20 dollars.

also, I would point out that 'historical evidence' also held people in contempt when they were telling folks that the world was round... of course, we all know how that one turned out.


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## phatredpt (Feb 22, 2006)

BoostedNihilist said:


> I don't twist your words, I read what you write and I attack the logic of the statement... no twisting. If you want to make a point, make sure you have your semantics right and proper before getting up on the soapbox.
> 
> I don't care if you are impressed or not.
> 
> ...


And he continues...

And you are an installer eh?

You probably do have a leg up on me then...
I have been designing for the same OEM for over 20 years supplying to DOD and....
Oh forget it .... I am wasting my time...................


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## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

I wonder how comfortable our soldiers would be if the connections on an Apache were soldered...lol.


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> s.
> 
> also, I would point out that 'historical evidence' also held people in contempt when they were telling folks that the world was round... of course, we all know how that one turned out.


Yes but that was before There was widespread Scientific evidence to prove otherwise. There is Quite a bit of scientific data on the crimp vs solder debate however, and several Organizations have been listed that have judged the data and concluded that crimps are a better mechanical connection. Specifically when motion and vibration are introduced into the equation.

All I have seen from your side of the argument is YOUR opinion, and a few snide remarks.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

either you don't understand what you are reading, or you don't understand what you have written... 


> Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit.


This does not mean that soldering is inferior to crimping, or even that solder cannot be used. I don't understand how you can extrapolate that fact from that statement...



> Soldering of terminals intended to be crimped has many downfalls and those are recognized by several agency's research engineers and studies, including but not limited to the DOD (Department of Defense), FAA (Federal Aviation Administration), and the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers). as well as the UL and CSA.
> If you sell to, manufacture for, do repair under their jurisdiction, or seek their underwriting approval you forbidden from soldering flexible wires in a crimp terminal.


All this is saying, is essentially, use a hammer on nails, and a screwdriver on screws. There is *NO* judgement here. Crimp ends intended to be crimped, solder ends that are intended to be soldered... this is what that statement means pure and simple... I do not understand how you can not see that.. it is truely elementary.

So, why are the battery terminals in my 180 soldered? (by the way, that would be an airplane) hmm, I think I trust the engineers at cessna more than some guy who has wired some boats, or something for *OEM manufacturers who, historically, have been notorious for cutting corners to reduce costs to increase profits...*

Not that it even matters, I don't actually need a battery to start my aircraft, but, I am glad to see that the job was done properly



> I wonder how comfortable our soldiers would be if the connections on an Apache were soldered...lol.


Hmm, pretty inconsequential... might try asking the pilots

as to this



> All I have seen from your side of the argument is YOUR opinion, and a few snide remarks.


That might be, but all I have seen from your side is some severly misrepresented 'facts' and a lack of logic and statistics to back those 'facts' up. I agree, don't solder connections meant to be crimped.. but that's not the argument we are having


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> I think I trust the engineers at cessna more than some guy who has wired some boats, or something for *OEM manufacturers who, historically, have been notorious for cutting corners to reduce costs to increase profits...*


1.The ABYC doesn't build boats they just suggest industry standards

2.The boat builders I work for build CUSTOM boats. There arent any corners cut for cost or profits. These are Preimier hand built sportfishing yachts.

Just a little clarification.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

so that would make your statement about being an OEM designer somewhat misleading. Are you saying that the engineers at cessna have no idea what they are doing? That's a pretty bold statement


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> so that would make your statement about being an OEM designer somewhat misleading. Are you saying that the engineers at cessna have no idea what they are doing? That's a pretty bold statement


I never said I was a OEM designer, I said I do OEM wiring (I Have no idea where you got that from)

Are the engineers at cessna using a solder joint for a mechanical connection? If so yes I am questioning the method based on statements from the DoD (not exactly a cost cutting organization), The ABYC, and others.

Will it work? Sure I never said solder wouldn't conduct or hold a wire in a terminal. I said that according to the information I have available from multiple reputable organizations a properly crimped compression crimp is a better mechanical connection than is solder. You can argue all the semantics and personal opinions that you want.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> If so yes I am questioning the method based on statements from the DoD (not exactly a cost cutting organization)


With credibility beyond reproach 



> Will it work? Sure I never said solder wouldn't conduct or hold a wire in a terminal. *I said that according to the information I have available from multiple reputable organizations a properly crimped compression crimp is a better mechanical connection than is solder*. You can argue all the semantics and personal opinions that you want.


Hello, mcfly, the semantics are the meat of the issue.

You contend crimping is better, overall in every application. 

This is not what the DoD or the other organisations you cited state. According to you, they state, that it is required to use a crimp connection with a crimper, not a crimp connection soldered. I take no issue with this. THis is a fact, use the correct terminal with the correct method of connection... solder a solder connection, crimp a crimp connection.

By no means does that mean that crimping is better than soldering. That is how you personally have interpreted that statement.. ignoring the fact that in no way does it make a judgement on the overall effectiveness of either soldering, or crimping, merely, that when doing connections the proper method of connection shall be used, i.e. crimper for a crimp, soldering a solderable connection. By making your above contention you are blatantly misrepresenting the facts. Pure and simple.



> Are the engineers at cessna using a solder joint for a mechanical connection? If so yes I am questioning the method based on statements from the DoD (not exactly a cost cutting organization), The ABYC, and others.


There you go folks. Don't trust the aeronautic engineers <real engineers, rather, trust some guy who wires boats and parrots out misrepresented statements from DoD 

Folks, remember, the advice you get off the internet from some internet hack is worth exactly what you paid for it.. nothing. I would however be sceptical of any boatbuilder who assumes he knows more than an aeronautic engineer


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> With credibility beyond reproach :rolle
> You contend crimping is better, overall in every application.


 Please show me where I have said that. I have reiterated several times for you that I have said that a crimp is a better* MECHANICAL* connection.

If you are going to solder the end on why even bother using stranded wire?


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> I said that according to the information I have available from multiple reputable organizations a properly crimped compression crimp is a better mechanical connection than is solder


Again, this is not what you are saying. You are saying that a properly crimped CRIMP connection is better than a soldered crimp connection... dig?



> Please show me where I have said that. I have reiterated several times for you that I have said that a crimp is a better MECHANICAL connection.


So, does this mean that soldering could be a better connection in another way? This is a rather ambiguous statement. Which is it, is soldering a better connection, or is crimping? That is what we are talking about here.

Are you agreeing that soldering a solder type connection is as good, if not better than crimping a crimp connection?

If you are not, then you are contending that crimping is better than soldering.



> If you are going to solder the end on why even bother using stranded wire?


Hello, mcfly, capillary action


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> There you go folks. Don't trust the aeronautic engineers <real engineers, rather, trust some guy who wires boats and parrots out misrepresented statements from DoD
> 
> Folks, remember, the advice you get off the internet from some internet hack is worth exactly what you paid for it.. nothing. I would however be sceptical of any boatbuilder who assumes he knows more than an aeronautic engineer


Your taking this argument to a personal level and calling people names and questioning their intelligence/abilities shows you lack confidence in your own knowledge.

Once again you have twisted my statement. I am done arguing with you sir. Personal attacks are not necessary to make a debate over ideas.

good day


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

jp88 said:


> Your taking this argument to a personal level and calling people names and questioning their intelligence/abilities shows you lack confidence in your own knowledge.
> 
> Once again you have twisted my statement. I am done arguing with you sir. Personal attacks are not necessary to make a debate over ideas.
> 
> good day


ok, whatever you say lol

If you don't know how to say what you mean, then intelligence/abilities are on the table my friend


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> .
> Hello, mcfly, capillary action


Yes that is the exact problem. Capilary action is what causes the stranded wire to become a *SOLID*conductor


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> Yes that is the exact problem. Capilary action is what causes the stranded wire to become a *SOLID* conductor


You make it sound as if the entire wire becomes a solid core wire, not the case, a properly prepared and exectued solder connection will become one solid piece with the terminal end you are using, if properly exectued, the solid portion will only reside within the terminal 'cup' leaving the rest of the wire flexible



> Once again you have twisted my statement.


no, your statements leave scarab sized holes which need to be patched

also, I did not intend for the word 'hack' to come across as a pajorative. They don't pay me for my advice/opinions either

However, the fact is you said that solder connections are forbidden in aircraft, when, clearly they are allowed or else the annual I just had would have caught the fact and my aircraft would have been deemed non type certified.

Edit: jp88 indeed did not make those statements, however anohter likeminded poster did. Clearly, the statement referred to above, when attributed to the actual author, is false and misleading


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> also, I did not intend for the word 'hack' to come across as a pajorative. They don't pay me for my advice/opinions either
> 
> So do you consider HACK to be a endearing term?
> 
> However, the fact is you said that solder connections are forbidden in aircraft, when, clearly they are allowed or else the annual I just had would have caught the fact and my aircraft would have been deemed non type certified.


I have not made any claims about what is forbidden in aircraft.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> I have not made any claims about what is forbidden in aircraft.


You are correct, you did not make any statements as to what was forbidden in an aircraft, my apologies

No, the term hack is not an endearing term

however, aside from your own anonymous declarations of your depth of experience and qualifications you very well might be a hack. These pitfalls exist for me as well...

which is why it is so important to be able to say what you mean, clearly.

Also, I have in no way misrepresented facts or made ambiguous statements which are open to 'adverse pontification' lol


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

> the semantics are the meat of the issue


 Why would you go out of your way to argue semantics? Go get ****ing laid, dude. None of us are impressed with your engineering credentials or the fact that you have a Cessna.












> Also, I have in no way misrepresented facts or made ambiguous statements which are open to 'adverse pontification' lol


Yeah, you've avoided stating facts at all, instead preferring to argue semantics lol


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> Why would you go out of your way to argue semantics? Go get ****ing laid, dude. None of us are impressed with your engineering credentials or the fact that you have a Cessna.


lmfao

I'm not here to impress people. I could give a **** what capnextreme thinks or does. I have no engineering credentials... did you read? can you read? I differ my nonexistant engineering credentials to those who have them, I.E. those who designed and manufactured my aircraft.... I don't misrepresent facts that those engineers may or may not have deduced to support my position... which is clearly what the 'crimp' folks have to do to support their weak position.



> Yeah, you've avoided stating facts at all, instead preferring to argue semantics lol


That is completely false. I have stated facts, which have yet to be disputed even by those who are apposed to my position. Perhaps, instead of letting emotion cloud your comprehension you could go back and read the thread and see for yourself

So far as getting laid goes... when you have a plane, this is really easy


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

So why are you here, arguing semantics?

You shouldn't need to be an engineer to understand the difference between mechanical and electrical.

I'm pretty sure jp isn't suggesting that PCB's should have crimped connections.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> You shouldn't need to be an engineer to understand the difference between mechanical and electrical.


Clearly you do not understand the concept of a 'mechanical' connection

soldering is a mechanical connection

this is not even disputed within the thread, which, if you would have read you would know.. but for the record I will re-iterate 

jp88


> I have said that a crimp is a better MECHANICAL connection.


this would indicate that both a crimp, and a solder are mechanical connections...


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

semantics semantics semantics semantics semantics

**deep breath**

seriously you just proved both of my points


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> semantics semantics semantics semantics semantics


se·man·tics Audio Help /sɪˈmæntɪks/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[si-man-tiks] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation 
–noun (used with a singular verb) 1. Linguistics. a. the study of meaning. 

indeed.

If you can't say what you mean, perhaps you should pick up a passtime which doesn't require communication of any type



> seriously you just proved both of my points


that's a strech since you haven't actually made a point


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

I said it very clearly. If you can't comprehend English, maybe you should slow down on the communication-related insults?

Point out where I said that a soldered connection isn't mechanical?

You re-iterated jp's point: that a crimped one is BETTER

Also, please point out where jp said that crimped connections are better for everything? Such as single strand wire that isn't subject to stress and vibration, and only has to make an electrical connection?

Choosing the right tool for the job isn't semantics, it's engineering. But it's clear you don't understand that.

And here you go Sweetheart:



> 3. The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form: We're basically agreed; _let's not quibble over semantics._


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> Point out where I said that a soldered connection isn't mechanical?


This is why semantics are so important



> You shouldn't need to be an engineer to understand the difference between mechanical and electrical.


If that wasn't your intent, explain to me how your above quoted statement has any relevance to our debate... 



> You re-iterated jp's point: that a crimped one is BETTER


Yes, you are right, I did do that. However it was not in agreement, it was quoted to illustrate the point that both solder connections and crimp connections are forms of mechanical connections. You're above quoted statement seemed to exclude soldering from the 'mechanical' paradigm.



> Choosing the right tool for the job isn't semantics, it's engineering. But it's clear you don't understand that.


Did you graduate?

like a million times I said, solder a solder connection, crimp a crimp connection. This does not mean that soldering is worse than crimping, merely... USE THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE RIGHT APPLICATION.. in case you're having a hard time with the concept.. you wouldn't hammer a screw into the wall? no, you'd screw it.. well, maybe you would I'm seriously beginning to wonder..

and sweetcheeks, we are in no way 'in agreement' If that is what you got out of my posts then perhaps the philosophy of semantics is actually over your head.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

BoostedNihilist said:


> You're above quoted statement seemed to exclude soldering from the 'mechanical' paradigm.


Yes, it transcends from the "mechanical paradigm" into an ethereal plane of existence. Sorry I didn't clarify.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

This was a nice touch


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

<-- **blushes**


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

For those who are actually interested here are pictures of a compression crimped sealed ended ring termanal that I cut in half. If you notice it actually looks like one peice of copper.

http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii142/jp886913/crimp cuttaway/?action=view&current=Picture024.jpg
http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii142/jp886913/crimp cuttaway/?action=view&current=Picture.jpg


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> For those who are actually interested here are pictures of a compression crimped sealed ended ring termanal that I cut in half. If you notice it actually looks like one peice of copper.
> 
> http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/i...Picture024.jpg
> http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/i...nt=Picture.jpg


Dude, seriously, I have that exact same stool.

In reality, that is a bomber connection. How did you cut it in half?

in my lexicon bomber = good


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> Dude, seriously, I have that exact same stool.
> 
> In reality, that is a bomber connection. How did you cut it in half?


sawzall


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## phatredpt (Feb 22, 2006)

OCD FTMFW!


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

phatredpt said:


> OCD FTMFW!


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## QtrHorse (Oct 17, 2007)

What crimper did you use to make that square crimp? Both of the crimpers (hydraulic and hand held bolt cutter type) make a hex crimp.


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## A8AWD (Mar 6, 2008)

My hand held compression "bolt cutter" crimpers give me a square crimp. There is an adjustable right angle die on each side of the crimper head.


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## QtrHorse (Oct 17, 2007)

Both of my bolt cutter crimpers have dies that rotate. One makes a hex crimp and the other makes a oval crimp. The hydraulic crimpers has multiple dies that you can insert that make a hex crimp as well.


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

I am not sure of the brand or make of the crimpers I used on this terminal. I bought them a while back at a local supply house, for about $180. I have another pair that is at one of my jobsites that does a more tri-angular crimp. this is a pic of the crimpers used on these terminals though
http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii142/jp886913/?action=view&current=Picture018.jpg

These pics also don't do the crimp justice. I cut another on off just past the crimp but I can't get my pos camera to get a good shot of it. When you crimp good terminals with good crimpers It pretty much becomes like a solid piece. There are NO voids in these crimps.


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## QtrHorse (Oct 17, 2007)

I'm going to try that with my crimpers and see how well they fair after being cut in half. 

Side not, what happened to the promised video from a member of solder being dropped on a crimp ring and not being able to get it off? Was it not supposed to be posted yesterday or today?


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

video is in production, will be available shortly. I decided to get some 0 gauge and heavy walled fittings to really drive the point home.

I'm going to send a sample of each, a crimped fitting and a soldered fitting to my cousin and get her to put it under an electron microscope to put this topic to rest once and for all


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## phatredpt (Feb 22, 2006)

BoostedNihilist said:


> video is in production, will be available shortly. I decided to get some 0 gauge and heavy walled fittings to really drive the point home.
> 
> I'm going to send a sample of each, a crimped fitting and a soldered fitting to my cousin and get her to put it under an electron microscope to put this topic to rest once and for all


I forget... what was the topic???

So you DO have high end crimpers!!!
What in heavens for??? 

While she is at it have her do a shear test 

By the way do you use ROHS compliant solder?
Just curious....


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> video is in production, will be available shortly. I decided to get some 0 gauge and heavy walled fittings to really drive the point home.
> 
> I'm going to send a sample of each, a crimped fitting and a soldered fitting to my cousin and get her to put it under an electron microscope to put this topic to rest once and for all


By the way, I misunderstood your demo, I thought you were going to show a complete solder job on the lug and not just a solder sticking test. That is why I mentioned the 0 gauge since it would probably be the one mostly used by the bat where a crimp or solder job will be used. Was not trying to qualify your test.


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## ringo (Nov 27, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> video is in production, will be available shortly. I decided to get some 0 gauge and heavy walled fittings to really drive the point home.
> 
> I'm going to send a sample of each, a crimped fitting and a soldered fitting to my cousin and get her to put it under an electron microscope to put this topic to rest once and for all


As the original poster......

It would be nice if you did a vid showing how you actually got the connection to solder correctly. That would be helpful too....


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

http://http://www.mygreenlee.com/Products/main.shtml?greenlee_category_id=4&product_category=189&adodb_next_page=1&adodb_next_page=4&portalProcess_2=showGreenleeProductTemplate&upc_number=06894

This is the crimper I just used on my 4ga wires, worked 100%


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Sassmastersq said:


> http://http://www.mygreenlee.com/Products/main.shtml?greenlee_category_id=4&product_category=189&adodb_next_page=1&adodb_next_page=4&portalProcess_2=showGreenleeProductTemplate&upc_number=06894
> 
> This is the crimper I just used on my 4ga wires, worked 100%


too many https


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

http://www.mygreenlee.com/Products/main.shtml?greenlee_category_id=4&product_category=189&adodb_next_page=1&adodb_next_page=4&portalProcess_2=showGreenleeProductTemplate&upc_number=06894
there.


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## jel847 (Nov 8, 2007)

this thread is priceless!!!!
imho: i think for a someone that is a diy guy or has never done it it is far easier to hack up a solder connection than a crimp..

i am a electrician and have been for 20 years..i have done all types of industrial installations and repairs,high voltage splicing and im talking about 2160volts and up...worked in nuclear power plants etc.
if you think anyone has higher standards than a nuke plant your wrong!
i have never seen a soldered on terminal,ever.
all high voltage work including the sub stations and power plants and high voltage transmission lines throught the U.S.use crimp on terminals.when done right they dont fail period.

just had to chime in...


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## jel847 (Nov 8, 2007)

there is NO advantage to adding solder to a properly crimped terminal its a waste of time...if anything i would think you would be causing more harm tha good by adding solder to it.


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

^^^ agreed.. I'm a sparktastamatrician too, and I can see HUGE issues with getting a proper solder joint, especially since you'd destroy the jacket on the wire way before you'd get proper solder adhesion.

Also... Wire rope slings used for lifting hundreds of tons are... you guessed it, crimped!!


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## phatredpt (Feb 22, 2006)

Excellent input guys... 
And well founded... when the statistics are tallied, crimp is the method of choice in all applications by far.
For good, solid, proven reasons!


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## jel847 (Nov 8, 2007)

in fact i would like to see the terminal thats deigned to be soldered on to 4 awg wire..if there is such a thing.
like sass said there is no way to heat that cable without compromising the insulation..


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## JeremyC (Dec 20, 2007)

BoostedNihilist said:


> However, the fact is you said that solder connections are forbidden in aircraft, when, clearly they are allowed or else the annual I just had would have caught the fact and my aircraft would have been deemed non type certified.


I have to agree. I work on the F16, as an avionics tech. I spend 12 hours a day repairing the electronic, and computer systems, and yes some of the wires on the F16 are soldered. 

Hmmm just realized something. I don't think I have ever had a properly soldered wire come out, but I can think of hundreds of crimped wires I have had to repair. They really like to break under Gs right were the crimp begins.



Sassmastersq said:


> ^^^ agreed.. I'm a sparktastamatrician too, and I can see HUGE issues with getting a proper solder joint, especially since you'd destroy the jacket on the wire way before you'd get proper solder adhesion.


You guys crack me up. Yes you will always have a little discoluration to the wire when soldering, but you make it sound like the next 10 ft of insulation are going to melt off if you solder something corectly. 

Its not that hard to solder something properly, with minimal damage to the sheilding. Besides how many people here solder a conection, and don't cover it with shrink tubing, or flex tube? 

That being said, crimping, can give you a better electrical conection. Lets face it, copper is a better conductor of electricity than lead is. So its only natural that a copper to copper conection would be a better conductor of electricity. 

Yet I still solder every conection in my installs. Why? I have installed both ways, (crimp and solder) and my solder conections never come back needing redone.


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## jel847 (Nov 8, 2007)

please clarify,are you talking about directly soldered connection because thats totally different?they were arguing about adding solder to crimped on connectors or soldering those connectors instead of crimping.also were not talking about small gauge wire either..
also its not easy for just anyone to solder 4 awg and larger wire i dont care how good you are.someone tha does it all the time is a different story but for the weekend warrior no way..


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

JeremyC said:


> I have to agree. I work on the F16, as an avionics tech. I spend 12 hours a day repairing the electronic, and computer systems, and yes some of the wires on the F16 are soldered.
> 
> Hmmm just realized something. I don't think I have ever had a properly soldered wire come out, but I can think of hundreds of crimped wires I have had to repair. They really like to break under Gs right were the crimp begins.
> 
> ...


True but completely irrelevant since the distance the electricity travels inside a lug filled with solder versus a copper to lug connection is not enough to make a measurable voltage drop difference in _any_ car audio application possible. 

You would have to use a lead bar of several feet to connect the lug to the copper cable in order for it to impact resistance in a way that it would lower voltage noticably, even on the highest load systems.

Jut trying to correct a statement by what I said. I not saying this because I think soldering a thicker cable is a better way of doing things.


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## jel847 (Nov 8, 2007)

with solder i would be more concerned with corrosion than i would voltage drop..i think that was his point.
im talking about the post sass made which is what the f-16 guy was talking about.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

jel847 said:


> with solder i would be more concerned with corrosion than i would voltage drop..i think that was his point.
> im talking about the post sass made which is what the f-16 guy was talking about.


My post was about the _paragraph_ I highlighted in the quote.


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