# Mid-bass/Tweeter location vs. crossover points... (Andy Wehmeyer comments)...



## Sonnie (Oct 21, 2008)

I was reading the MS-8 FAQ thread and noted a few observations on what Andy states about the location of midbass drivers and tweeters.

Andy recommends mounting the tweeters up high... ear level, which most would be in the pillars to be that high.



> *Andy Wehmeyer :*
> It's helpful if the side and rear tweeters are at about ear level. Don't mount them in the bottom of the doors.


rain27 asked the question about the x-over point... and I am not sure Andy really answered it clearly enough.



> *rain27 :*
> Andy, What is your opinion on the lowest frequency a tweeter should play at when installed far from the midbass in a 2way set up? There is some debate that a tweeter should not be played lower than 4k if the mid is low in the door and the tweeter is in the sail panel, a pillar, or dash.
> 
> When setting the xover on the MS-8, I'd like to what limits to be mindful of.
> ...


It sounds like it might be best if you can only accommodate a 2 way system in the front, to maybe choose a smaller diameter mid-bass driver (say a 5.25" driver instead of a 6.5") so that it can have better response in the 4kHz range, therefore allowing a higher x-over point for the tweeter.

What is the disadvantage of a lower x-over point (2 - 2.5kHz) in a tweeter mounted up high in the pillars? Obviously provided it can handle the lower x-over point.


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## adrenalinejunkie (Oct 17, 2010)

Had this bookmarked. hope it helps.
a-pillar tweeter location - CARSOUND.COM Forum


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

Sonnie said:


> It sounds like it might be best if you can only accommodate a 2 way system in the front, to maybe choose a smaller diameter mid-bass driver (say a 5.25" driver instead of a 6.5") so that it can have better response in the 4kHz range, therefore allowing a higher x-over point for the tweeter.
> 
> What is the disadvantage of a lower x-over point (2 - 2.5kHz) in a tweeter mounted up high in the pillars? Obviously provided it can handle the lower x-over point.


Hybrid Audio woofers have excellent upper mid-range response, even the 6.5 inch ones while still having very good bass response. HAT Clarus uses crossover frequency above 5KHz, and HAT Imagine is similar to it. I would try one of these before considering a 5 inch driver. One of the reasons that HAT woofers play so high in frequency response is because Hybrid Audio believes that high crossover frequency is better for imaging if you're going to place the tweeter away from the woofer.


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## willtel (Dec 18, 2008)

ZAKOH said:


> Hybrid Audio woofers have excellent upper mid-range response, even the 6.5 inch ones while still having very good bass response. HAT Clarus uses crossover frequency above 5KHz, and HAT Imagine is similar to it. I would try one of these before considering a 5 inch driver. One of the reasons that HAT woofers play so high in frequency response is because Hybrid Audio believes that high crossover frequency is better for imaging if you're going to place the tweeter away from the woofer.


This is timely. I just got my 6.5" Clarus set installed over the weekend with the tweeters mounted in the sail panel of my BMW.

Where would you guys suggest setting the crossover points on my MS-8? The front stage is 2 way with and Alpine SBS-05DC center channel.


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

If you re-read Andy's statement he was talking about rear fill speaker placement. Up front he has recommended tweeters mounted on the door panels to avoid a lot of the early reflections off the glass.


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## Sonnie (Oct 21, 2008)

adrenalinejunkie said:


> Had this bookmarked. hope it helps.
> a-pillar tweeter location - CARSOUND.COM Forum


The location in the pillar is not really an option if I want it to look factory... as the factory has already located it for me. Although the link is appreciated and it is a good read, this is more about what kind of mid-bass driver to use due to the tweeter location.




ZAKOH said:


> Hybrid Audio woofers have excellent upper mid-range response, even the 6.5 inch ones while still having very good bass response. HAT Clarus uses crossover frequency above 5KHz, and HAT Imagine is similar to it. I would try one of these before considering a 5 inch driver. One of the reasons that HAT woofers play so high in frequency response is because Hybrid Audio believes that high crossover frequency is better for imaging if you're going to place the tweeter away from the woofer.


I don't think it is really a question of the mid-bass being able to play higher frequencies, but do they have good dispersion above 2kHz? Do you have an on and off axis frequency response chart for these speakers? 

I see the on-axis response in their PDF manual, but not off-axis. I believe this is why Andy recommended trying to keep the x-over point at 2kHz so it won't be used where the dispersion is narrow... which will give better similarity between the on-axis and off axis frequency response.

This is one thing I really appreciated about Dynaudio speakers... they include the off-axis response on their mid-bass and tweeters. Here is an example of their Esotec MW 162...










They do fine up to about 2kHz, but at 4kHz they are down 10db off-axis.

Of course their 152 model is certainly not any better, actually worse on-axis and down a couple more db off-axis.













trumpet said:


> If you re-read Andy's statement he was talking about rear fill speaker placement. Up front he has recommended tweeters mounted on the door panels to avoid a lot of the early reflections off the glass.


Yep... I see that he was referring to back rear and side rear once I re-read the entire post again.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

After many attempts at balancing a 2-way system it seems nearly impossible to not have some kind of comprimise one way or the other. 
Crossing high (above 5Khz or so) sounds the best IMHO but you are still left with overly warm sounding, lack of direct clarity midrange content of the midbass driver because of the beamimg / lack of upper midrange dispersion as well as their relatively obstructed location. 
Crossing the tweeter low, around 2K or so, even the best of them have compromised tonality issues playing that low, nasal sounding, harsh, displeasing etc. in addition to the overlap region of sound being smack in the middle of the vocal range and the resulting image blurring. 

I'm currently running with a quasi active 3-way, midbass playing low, midrange rolled off naturally and mounted up high, next to the tweeter, tweeter blended in with a passive crossover above 8K. 

No compromises of any sort and this basic install setup is worlds better in overall sound quality.


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## Sonnie (Oct 21, 2008)

I would really like to go with a 3-way setup, but I am limited to the location of a midrange driver. If I did not have the vent in the sail, I could probably put a 3" mid there, otherwise there is only about 1.5" to 2" diameter available where you see the red arrow, which is the only location with any space behind it to accommodate a speaker.


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## Libertyguy20 (Jun 6, 2012)

I have a 2 way + sub setup and can relate.

Lately I've been RTAing at various tweet/midrange crossover points and slopes. So far I've settled with using [email protected] db for one curve (all 4 speakers) and the other curve is [email protected] db. I'm trying to stick with all 24 db slopes, as I remember hearing that if your speakers are farther apart, more shallow slopes are often times more preferable....mine are closer together (7-8 inches), which i believe allows me to play around and be somewhat flexible in my slopes (12, 18 or 24 db). My tweets are in the upper door panel at a very nice factory built location, which is an on axis angle pointing across the cabin towards the other side's passenger. The mid ranges in the lower door do something similar but face more towards the center of the vehicle. 

One thing I've never really figured out....(perahps there is a sticky to be recommended) is that if a 2nd order slope (12 db) has 180 degree phase shift, does that matriculate down in the end to a shift in the image? Ie, is there a relationship between image shift and phase shift?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I'm currently running a 2" widebander in the dash and 6.5" midbass low in the doors. All factory locations in my Ram. I've found the best balance between sound and imaging is with mids crossed from 100-1.25k with 24db slopes on both ends and 2khz 12db on the widebanders. For a system that was built to look factory it turned out pretty good. Plus it stages wider than a lot of the installs I've heard with custom pillar pods aiming the drivers on axis.


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## Pimpnyou204 (Jul 13, 2011)

Correct me if I'm wrong but Andy believes tweets in the sails midrange right below (in the upper door?), then midbass in the lower door. I believe that is what he is quoted in saying.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

Sonnie said:


> I would really like to go with a 3-way setup, but I am limited to the location of a midrange driver. If I did not have the vent in the sail, I could probably put a 3" mid there, otherwise there is only about 1.5" to 2" diameter available where you see the red arrow, which is the only location with any space behind it to accommodate a speaker.


wow! those vent panels are huge and would give me a blind spot obsession- BUT they are a golden opportunity to mount a mid or wideband. I would be all over those panels with a hole saw. It was painful for me to take a hole saw to my upper door panels but once I did- in for a penny in for a pound as it goes. Try a HAT L3SE or even the pioneer stage 4 mini mid / wide bander.


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## Salami (Oct 10, 2007)

avanti1960 said:


> wow! those vent panels are huge and would give me a blind spot obsession- BUT they are a golden opportunity to mount a mid or wideband.



Prolly not a whole lot of depth with those vents in there.


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## Sonnie (Oct 21, 2008)

I would have to remove the vents... and stop up the vent hole coming from the cab. I think there might be about 2" of depth. I don't think I want to remove the vents though.


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## alligatorman (Sep 7, 2010)

After tryin multiple tweeter locations for my clarus 6.5s...I ended mounting them just above the woofers on the door panel about 6" away.

Like the HAT manual states, keep the tweeter close to the woofer, as far forward as possible.

For stock locations with large distance between the woofer and tweeter, you want a tweeter that will play into the 2.5khz range.

I would suggest reading any HAT speaker owners manual -there is a great section on hard earned lessons and speaker placement.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2


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## Sonnie (Oct 21, 2008)

There is another location just in front of the door handle where a tweeter can be mounted flush. Although they would be closer to me than up on the pillars... they would be only 6-8" above the midbass speakers (green arrow)


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

No matter what anyone says or writes in their owner's manuals or marketing materials, the dispersion is determined by the diameter of the driver. You can change the shape of the frequency response curves off axis with phase plugs, cone shapes, etc, but you can't dramatically alter the dispersion or eliminate the attenuation.


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## Sonnie (Oct 21, 2008)

Hi Andy...

Would you move the tweeters down lower in the sails or in front of the door handles... or leave them in the pillars?

Would you go with 5.25" midbass drivers or 6.5"? I have to build a plate either way.

I have not been able to find a midrange that will fit (depth or width) in either of my available locations. If I went with a 5.25" driver, it might be that I could put a 2" mid next to it where the 5 x 7 opening is located.

What would be your assessment of what I have to work with?

Thanks!


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

if that was my truck sonnie, i would do whatever i could to get those sail panels to have a 3 or 4 inch midrange and aim the tweeter on the pillars properly.

i have a fatialPRO 4FE30 and i think you might be able to fit them in that spot, if not the 4" then surely the 3". then cross your midbass at 100hz, the midrange at 100hz, and stop worrying about it lol 

they are overall 2" deep total.


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Sonnie said:


> I would have to remove the vents... and stop up the vent hole coming from the cab.  I think there might be about 2" of depth. I don't think I want to remove the vents though.


To each his own, but may I ask why not? They would really only be of benefit to defog the side glass, and I am guessing you don't experience a lot of that where you are.....It also looks like the panel may be a separate piece from the door card, which would make it even easier.

Again, your car = your choice


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## Sonnie (Oct 21, 2008)

req said:


> if that was my truck sonnie, i would do whatever i could to get those sail panels to have a 3 or 4 inch midrange and aim the tweeter on the pillars properly.
> 
> i have a fatialPRO 4FE30 and i think you might be able to fit them in that spot, if not the 4" then surely the 3". then cross your midbass at 100hz, the midrange at 100hz, and stop worrying about it lol
> 
> they are overall 2" deep total.





danno14 said:


> To each his own, but may I ask why not? They would really only be of benefit to defog the side glass, and I am guessing you don't experience a lot of that where you are.....It also looks like the panel may be a separate piece from the door card, which would make it even easier.
> 
> Again, your car = your choice


I think I work out a 3" diameter mid there, but that would be the max... and I would want something round, not square like that 4" facialPRO... with a cover. A 2" mid would be even better. It may be possible to only take up part of the vent space and seal part of the back of the mid driver to the vent. Those vents are super nice to have in the winter time.


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## Sonnie (Oct 21, 2008)

I was just looking at the Hertz Hi Energy HSK163 system. I am pretty sure the tweeter would work in the factory location... and I think I can get that mid to work. I don't know much about Hertz though. They appear to be recommended a good bit and obviously reputable.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

here's your sail panel midrange right here-

Pioneer Stage 4 TS-S062PRS 2-5/8" component midrange speakers at Crutchfield.com


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## Sonnie (Oct 21, 2008)

I can buy the entire 3-way HSK163 set for that price. The HL70 is about the same size and has higher sensitivity, but doesn't extend quite as low, which I don't think will be a big deal. I am really liking the HSK163 at the moment. Just trying to find my best deal on them.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

danno14 said:


> To each his own, but may I ask why not? They would really only be of benefit to defog the side glass, and I am guessing you don't experience a lot of that where you are.....It also looks like the panel may be a separate piece from the door card, which would make it even easier.
> 
> Again, your car = your choice


We get fog from condensation on the glass AND frost here in the deep south. Fog on the inside of the glass can be remedied by running the a/c to pull the humidity out of the air but that's a last resort imo. For safety reasons I'd keep them where they are.


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## Sonnie (Oct 21, 2008)

I am going to be able to work around the vent. It is rather large at the point I will be needing part of it... and I will only need a very small part of it. I will cut out that section and seal it back up... shouldn't be an issue.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Sonnie wrote, "Would you move the tweeters down lower in the sails or in front of the door handles...?"

Great question.


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## Sonnie (Oct 21, 2008)

I would still like to know what would be best, although if I go with 3-way I will use the sails for the mids and leave the tweets where they are.


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