# iPhone to Helix via usb issues



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

So after meeting a member here with a setup much better than my previous one I decided to change some things. He is running iPhone to helix via usb through camera adapter with the hec card. After an Apple update he told me as well as others on here have noted they lost the ability to charge while also getting the "this device is not supported" message. I was pretty annoyed but set it up for charging in hopes that it would get a software patch on the Apple side. Got my new set up going which consists of, Apple iPhone7-amazon lightning 3' extension-Apple camera adapter-18' mini usb to HEC in the helix mini. It works and does what it is suppose to. Met with another member that noticed something VERY weird to him which was I had volume control while running "Digital." He was saying the phone thinks I'm plugging headphones in and is out putting an analog signal. After he mentioned this I did think back to when I used my phone into a kenwood headunit it turned the volume control off. So fast forward to today met with a friend for a test we used Apple iPhone 7-Apple a/v adpater(hdmi out as well as charging)-powered hdmi to toslink converter-toslink directly to helix mini. No more volume control. What are yalls thoughts on this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

Apple products have volume control through digital just like android based players. The AV adapter with HDMI is why you have no volume control with that particular setup.

We are still working with Apple to get them to update and fix the charging issue as well as the "device not supported" message.


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

dobslob said:


> Apple products have volume control through digital just like android based players. The AV adapter with HDMI is why you have no volume control with that particular setup.
> 
> 
> 
> We are still working with Apple to get them to update and fix the charging issue as well as the "device not supported" message.




How is it digitally changing the volume? Why is there volume control on the camera adapter and not when running the av to hdmi to toslink?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

My guess is that Apple could but didn’t put volume control on the HDMI AV adapter because in majority of instances they are used with AV receivers or equipment that have their own volume control. 

The USB adapter works to output USB audio but I have never seen any Apple literature (I could be wrong) about that being an Official use for the USB adapter. 

It’s primary purpose was for external camera use.

The digital audio out functionality is just something us audiophiles found out and use to our advantage.

The iOS device is definitely NOT outputting analog signal through the USB adapter. 

Like most things Apple, you won’t get the true details of how, but digital volume control works by truncating bits of the source material. 

So... even though one can use the iOS device for digital volume control.. I lean towards leaving the iOS device at 100% volume and letting the DSP with 24-32 bit processing power do the digital volume control to minimize any loss in resolution and dynamic range that comes with digital volume control. 

Brax DSP/MX4 Pro combo is the only company/gear I know that properly addresses digital volume control to avoid any resolution/dynamic range loss.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I have no reason to doubt dobslob, but I’ve hooked my iPhone to hundreds of not thousands of units and when connected the volume goes away...

The *only* thing I’ve ever used plugged into lightning with volume control is headphones (or the analog signal) 

Maybe he’s right in saying the aV adaptor does send digital to the hec 
But the question is: is it getting fed analog or digital.

Does the AV adaptor have a ADC in it with volume embedded 

Just sayin


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

oabeieo said:


> I have no reason to doubt dobslob, but I’ve hooked my iPhone to hundreds of not thousands of units and when connected the volume goes away...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What I'm wondering is with the camera adapter issues it calls for a digital signal get the "this accessory isn't supported" issue and spits out an analog signal where the a/v adapter calls for digital in a different way and it actually gets it? The A/v adapter was charging as well too 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> My guess is that Apple could but didn’t put volume control on the HDMI AV adapter because in majority of instances they are used with AV receivers or equipment that have their own volume control.
> 
> The USB adapter works to output USB audio but I have never seen any Apple literature (I could be wrong) about that being an Official use for the USB adapter.
> 
> ...


I don’t believe he is saying it is putting analogue audio out via the usb interface, more that the phone believes it is actually an analogue device (like a headphone for example which is analogue after the lightening plug) and trying to modulate it’s volume

I am also firmly in the camp whereby I have never had a volume control when it’s connected and feeding digital audio to another device, my pioneer double din with car play is definitely no volume control, Bluetooth or aux cable or headphones all have volume control enabled, so no I am fairly sure if there is a volume control it’s not outputting via digital also

sorry Doug but I’m with the guys here... fingers crossed you sort it soon as I’ve never had digital straight into a usb hec as I recently bought the camera kit unaware of this issue ?


----------



## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

oabeieo said:


> The *only* thing I’ve ever used plugged into lightning with volume control is headphones (or the analog signal)
> 
> Maybe he’s right in saying the aV adaptor does send digital to the hec
> But the question is: is it getting fed analog or digital.


Lightning headphones and Lightning headphone adapters have DAC’s in them

The Apple USB Camera adapter is a USB host device. There is no DAC or ADC inside of it.

*Apple’s Lightning Port is ALL digital.* Plain and simple.


dumdum said:


> I don’t believe he is saying it is putting analogue audio out via the usb interface, more that the phone believes it is actually an analogue device (like a headphone for example which is analogue after the lightening plug) and trying to modulate it’s volume


Gotcha. Yes it is a form of device misidentification. I’m sure Doug can elaborate further why that’s the case specifically for the USB HEC.

However, as Doug previously mentioned, iOS devices are also able to modulate the volume. Lightning is digital and USB is digital which can only mean a form of digital volume control is implemented by the iOS device.

Bluetooth audio is also digital audio. iOS devices let you control that volume as well. So iOS digital volume control is not a foreign notion.

Current methods of digital volume control does mean losing bits as volume is decreased (inaudible in most cases but probably the reason why digital volume control is disabled with many ‘recognized’ or ‘compatible’ connected digital audio devices). The specific dithering method or algorithms Apple is using for digital volume control will probably never be disclosed unless we have an Apple engineer in our midst?



Redliner99 said:


> What I'm wondering is with the camera adapter issues it calls for a digital signal get the "this accessory isn't supported" issue and spits out an analog signal where the a/v adapter calls for digital in a different way and it actually gets it? The A/v adapter was charging as well too


Lightning can only spit out digital. I do find it strange how CHEAPER aftermarket Apple Lightning USB Camera adapters on Amazon can still allow for charging with the Helix USB HEC despite still bringing up the error pop up message.

This aftermarket camera adapter is a current workaround. Error may still pop up but the *iOS device will still charge*. Confirmed for iOS 12.1+ with Helix USB HEC:

https://www.amazon.com/HENKUR-Adapter-Charging-Interface-Compatible/dp/B07GJ9TYWP/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=henkur+usb+camera+adapter&qid=1559317943&s=gateway&sprefix=henku&sr=8-3



dobslob said:


> We are still working with Apple to get them to update and fix the charging issue as well as the "device not supported" message.


Maybe Audiotec Fischer can make their own aftermarket Lightning USB adapters? Address the market for an ‘audiophile’ Lightning USB Adapter...


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Lightning headphones and Lightning headphone adapters have DAC’s in them
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That is weird the aftermarket adapters will still charge. I'm pretty annoyed with that fact right now due to my longer drives to work after waking up and all jazz I get to work already down to 70-80% battery. So I did some testing with the Apple a/v adapter and an hdmi to optical converter box. It worked flawlessly and charged. So the next thing I'm going to try is Apple a/v adapter to hdmi cord -unpowered hdmi to optical converter into the dsp. I think hdmi will be more durable in a car since I can't use coax. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Lightning headphones and Lightning headphone adapters have DAC’s in them
> 
> The Apple USB Camera adapter is a USB host device. There is no DAC or ADC inside of it.
> 
> ...




You sound like you know what your talking about. I never knew that. 
And makes sense why the lightning aux jack is a dongle.
So the device says weather volume is unlocked or is it a different protocol all together? Dosent apple have there own transfer protocol over lightning or is it PCM or m4a codec or something.....whatever it is, does it change SQ at all ?


----------



## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

oabeieo said:


> You sound like you know what your talking about. I never knew that.
> And makes sense why the lightning aux jack is a dongle.
> So the device says weather volume is unlocked or is it a different protocol all together? Dosent apple have there own transfer protocol over lightning or is it PCM or m4a codec or something.....whatever it is, does it change SQ at all ?


Not sure if its PCM or some proprietary codec either 

I was very very curios too when the device not supported error first began! Then rummaged the web and other forums for what’s goin on but these are the questions only Apple can answer.

I’m wondering if Doug has more insight and is able to disclose what is not properly communicating with what. Is it Apple’s end? Is it Helix’s end? Both? 

Everything was working just fine until Apple decides to push through an iOS update..

But then again I don’t see any reference from Audiotech Fischer that the Helix USB HEC is designed to a specific USB Audio Class standard (1,2,or 3?) maybe causing the iOS or Apple Camera Adapter to not properly recognize the Helix USB HEC?

Here was one of the cool things I came across about the Lighting Headphone adapter:
https://www.ifixit.com/News/apple-audio-adapter-teardown


----------



## SiW80 (Mar 13, 2019)

Using the Apple camera connection kit to give a usb connection and when plugged into a Topping D10 DAC shows the volume control and it’s definitely digital output from the lightening port. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

SiW80 said:


> Using the Apple camera connection kit to give a usb connection and when plugged into a Topping D10 DAC shows the volume control and it’s definitely digital output from the lightening port.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Interesting. What are you running out of the D10?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twonks (Nov 10, 2007)

Just found this thread. It may have been my original thread about the camera kit problem as I posted a while ago.


Ultimately I found that a low cost thing from Amazon worked. Gave an error but also let digital audio out and charged the phone. (latest on ipod touch on ios 12.1 and iphone x on latest ios)


It is digital out as the Onkyo HF music player app plays 24/96 files no problem, and the iphone won't play them natively iirc.


I have volume control on the devices but always set it to max when using them as an audio feed, and use the URC.3 for master control.


The original apple camera kit 3 works fine and charges with no error codes with either the ipod/iphone playing usb out into a USB dac in the home, so I guess it is something in the Helix it doesn't like.


----------



## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

On a somewhat related note....

I have the newest iPad Pro and Apple has ditched the Lightning port on it for a USB-C. The USB-C port allows the iPad to be used with external DACs without the need for any dongle.

The unfortunate part is that the Ipad Pro requires a huge amount of current to charge, and very few DAC devices would offer enough juice for that. So, we still need to use a dongle for charging.


However, I would expect that future iPhone models will begin to go to USB-C and since an iPhone is much smaller than an iPad, the current draw should be more reasonable. I would expect that eventually we will be able to run a USB-C cable to a DAC and have the iPhone charge.


----------



## SiW80 (Mar 13, 2019)

Redliner99 said:


> Interesting. What are you running out of the D10?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Toslink optical digital into DSP Mini


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SiW80 (Mar 13, 2019)

Twonks said:


> Just found this thread. It may have been my original thread about the camera kit problem as I posted a while ago.
> 
> 
> Ultimately I found that a low cost thing from Amazon worked. Gave an error but also let digital audio out and charged the phone. (latest on ipod touch on ios 12.1 and iphone x on latest ios)
> ...




Do you have a link?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

SiW80 said:


> Do you have a link?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I posted it above


----------



## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

subterFUSE said:


> The unfortunate part is that the Ipad Pro requires a huge amount of current to charge, and very few DAC devices would offer enough juice for that. So, we still need to use a dongle for charging.


For my 2018 iPad Pro I've been using this so far. Still charges and plays with Helix USB HEC:

https://www.hypershop.com/collections/hyperdrive/products/hyperdrive-6-in-1-hub-for-ipad-pro-2018?variant=19332717412414


----------



## Twonks (Nov 10, 2007)

SiW80 said:


> Do you have a link?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B078YLPTL3/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_2joLCb13FC8TN 

For UK users.


----------



## SiW80 (Mar 13, 2019)

Twonks said:


> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B078YLPTL3/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_2joLCb13FC8TN
> 
> 
> 
> For UK users.




Cheers!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Bringing this back up. I have seen mentioned a few times and I can't find the thread. Which camera adapters are y'all using that will charge even though it still has the message that pops up?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

Twonks said:


> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B078YLPTL3/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_2joLCb13FC8TN
> 
> For UK users.


Or 

This:
https://www.amazon.com/HENKUR-Adapter-Charging-Interface-Compatible/dp/B07GJ9TYWP

Take note that both products are ‘cheaper’ products. Not sure on the longevity of the HENKUR model. I’ve been using one for 8 months and about 2 weeks ago started to intermittently lose connection when jostled a little. They use cheaper quality Lighting connectors when you compare it to the apple Lighting connector.


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Or
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you. Hopefully they will get this solved 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Well after 2 days with the Henkur adapter I'm sending it back to amazon. It will charge every 2-3 plug ins. But it won't connect on high speed in the Director. It will play on full speed but as soon as I toggle back to high speed it cuts off. Thinking about going apple av adapter to hdmi to optical. This no charging stuff is killing me 10-25% battery on the way to work and same on the way home. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Get a wireless charging phone holder.


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

tonynca said:


> Get a wireless charging phone holder.




I have an iPhone 7 Plus. And after spending the money I have I shouldn't need anything extra. Apple is screwing us and audiotech Fisher not fixing this with recent iOS 12 garbage. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twonks (Nov 10, 2007)

Are you sure you need High Speed ?

I thought the biggest difference was the capability to pass more than 96Khz that full speed does, and as your DSP mini can only cope with 96Khz it seems to be irrelevant.

I accept that I may be missing something more obvious, but just a thought!


----------



## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Redliner99 said:


> I have an iPhone 7 Plus. And after spending the money I have I shouldn't need anything extra. Apple is screwing us and audiotech Fisher not fixing this with recent iOS 12 garbage.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Yeah, Apple screwing ppl over is nothing new. Haha. Prepare to keep dealing with new issues with every iOS update. 

I don't expect my CarPlay headunit to make it to iOS 15. Apple will surely do something to f it up. 

I doubt they will fix anything anytime soon. It's always been their way or the highway. Never admitting fault either. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Twonks said:


> Are you sure you need High Speed ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes I noticed and even my passenger noticed how it sounded terrible. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

tonynca said:


> Yeah, Apple screwing ppl over is nothing new. Haha. Prepare to keep dealing with new issues with every iOS update.
> 
> I don't expect my CarPlay headunit to make it to iOS 15. Apple will surely do something to f it up.
> 
> ...




Well that sucks but your right. AF probably won't address the issue by doing anything themselves since it's an add on. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

Apple makes it hard for other companies to interface with there ****. On purpose. They wanna be the only game in town. For that reason alone I will never buy apple and I will recommend to everyone not to use apple. They make something simple impossible to do.


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Actually call me daft... but... I have a pioneer headunit that does still work with my iPhone XR... so I suspect it’s something with the helix that uses a different protocol to my pioneer that is 5yrs old and also uses the digital out (the volume control gets defeated when I plug it in)

So why is it all apples fault?


----------



## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

dumdum said:


> Actually call me daft... but... I have a pioneer headunit that does still work with my iPhone XR... so I suspect it’s something with the helix that uses a different protocol to my pioneer that is 5yrs old and also uses the digital out (the volume control gets defeated when I plug it in)
> 
> So why is it all apples fault?


They make everything difficult. You can't replace your own battery without your phone complaining. You don't own the hardware. They do.


----------



## jrwalte (Mar 27, 2008)

I'm in the same opinion. I never buy Apple products because of their proprietary business model/practice.


----------



## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

Unfortunately there is nothing that Audiotec Fischer can do to change how the iPhone works aside from explain to them that they are upsetting customers because of their choices. 

They are working on better solutions anyway and we should see the results soon.


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Put my old Apple camera adapter back in and it will play on high speed but still no charging. I think the next step is going to be:
Apple av adapter 
18' HDMI cable to this 
Hdmi to optical adapter 
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sonos-...MIk86Ozsmh5AIVhqDsCh2wDAOoEAUYASABEgJsqfD_BwE

I still think this is a very convoluted way to do things but I'm not sure there is a better option at this point. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

My friend's car is using the USB 3.0 camera adapter and we cannot get the Helix to accept 24/96khz. Is this a known issue?


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

tonynca said:


> My friend's car is using the USB 3.0 camera adapter and we cannot get the Helix to accept 24/96khz. Is this a known issue?




Which 3.0 adapter?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Redliner99 said:


> Which 3.0 adapter?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://www.amazon.com/Apple-Lightn...&s=gateway&sprefix=apple+usb+3,aps,192&sr=8-3

I think we found the issue. The iPhone 6 has a craptastic output limit of 24/48khz. LOL

I will test with my iPhone XR to see if we could hit 24/192khz output.


----------



## SiW80 (Mar 13, 2019)

tonynca said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Apple-Lightn...&s=gateway&sprefix=apple+usb+3,aps,192&sr=8-3
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You need to use a 3rd party player app like Onkyo and load hi res files to it - standard Apple Music app is limited to 48kHz output.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

Ever Play another good iOS player for Hi-Res files.


----------



## Twonks (Nov 10, 2007)

I use an iPhone X and Ipod touch latest gen with the Onkyo HF player and the Helix will see 24/96 files. Only have mk1 P-Six so this is the highest resolution is will play with.

Not actually got any hi res music on either device at the moment but they do play through the Amazon camera kit I linked to above.


----------



## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Yup got it to work. Tidal playing Master songs will show 88.9/96khz.


----------



## Twonks (Nov 10, 2007)

I now have a further issue, although at this stage not sure if it is cable or hardware related.


When playing through the iPod into camera kit, USB card and into P Six, with more regular occurrence the audio begins to crackle and then cut off the feed into the P-Six. The iPod will then only play through it's internal speaker and no longer recognises the USB audio.


Turning the car off and waiting for power to dissipate from the Helix (light goes out on URC.3) it will all come good again once restarted.


Going to replace the apple cable to the ipod and maybe put the original Apple camera kit adaptor back in (accepting that it won't charge) to see if it is the non standard kit causing the problem.


Beyond that I'll have to investigate the P Six further and probably speak to AF.


Anybody had this or similar, before I pull things apart?


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Twonks said:


> I now have a further issue, although at this stage not sure if it is cable or hardware related.
> 
> 
> When playing through the iPod into camera kit, USB card and into P Six, with more regular occurrence the audio begins to crackle and then cut off the feed into the P-Six. The iPod will then only play through it's internal speaker and no longer recognises the USB audio.
> ...




Check to see if you have lint or anything in your charge port that's hindering your connection 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dsquared (Aug 10, 2016)

I have had the same issue. I turn the car off and back on too and it’s ok but 
Gets progressively worse with time . So what I do is reset the dsp and reload my presets. Good to go . It’s happened 3 or 4 times .
I also get that same error message like the accessory( camera adapter) is not compatible with this device . I just press ok and it works but doesn’t charge either . Odd but that’s Apple for ya


----------



## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

I sometimes remedy the lost connection issue by toggling between Full Speed and High Speed USB DAC options. Then reconnecting the iOS device. Not sure if it refreshes the connection or not but it will see my iOS device again when connection is lost (using Helix DSP pro mk2 and Director).


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> I sometimes remedy the lost connection issue by toggling between Full Speed and High Speed USB DAC options. Then reconnecting the iOS device. Not sure if it refreshes the connection or not but it will see my iOS device again when connection is lost (using Helix DSP pro mk2 and Director).




I have tried this as well. I read you post on another thread. It works maybe every 10th try for me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

Redliner99 said:


> Bnlcmbcar said:
> 
> 
> > I sometimes remedy the lost connection issue by toggling between Full Speed and High Speed USB DAC options. Then reconnecting the iOS device. Not sure if it refreshes the connection or not but it will see my iOS device again when connection is lost (using Helix DSP pro mk2 and Director).
> ...


My bad, forgot I posted that already. I know it’s frustrating! It randomly happens to me too. 

I’m still figuring out myself why with iOS 13 my iPhone will sometimes charge and play then sometimes not charge and play 

where as 

my iPad pro 2018 with the Apple USB C dongle never experienced the charging and playing issue (even when it was on iOS 12).


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> My bad, forgot I posted that already. I know it’s frustrating! It randomly happens to me too.
> 
> I’m still figuring out myself why with iOS 13 my iPhone will sometimes charge and play then sometimes not charge and play
> 
> ...




So it's not a lightning/camera issue it's a phone issue. I was hoping the 11 was gonna be usb c but I guess not 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tonynca (Dec 4, 2009)

Redliner99 said:


> So it's not a lightning/camera issue it's a phone issue. I was hoping the 11 was gonna be usb c but I guess not
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




That would be tens of millions down the drain for licensing lightning port. Greed forgets customer's well being.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

tonynca said:


> That would be tens of millions down the drain for licensing lightning port. Greed forgets customer's well being.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




The next phone will be usb c everything else Apple is already usb c 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Twonks (Nov 10, 2007)

Twonks said:


> I now have a further issue, although at this stage not sure if it is cable or hardware related.
> 
> 
> When playing through the iPod into camera kit, USB card and into P Six, with more regular occurrence the audio begins to crackle and then cut off the feed into the P-Six. The iPod will then only play through it's internal speaker and no longer recognises the USB audio.
> ...


As an update to my own post, over the weekend I took the dash apart and removed the extension cable that went from the ipod car cradle to the camera kit. This cable was a little suspect as the metal shroud was loose around the plug so maybe a little vulnerable to damage.

I have expected it not to make a difference so I hot glued the camera kit to the back of the mount and left it accessible without having to take half the dash off. 

So far it has not crackled and cut off again. Been running it for up to 2 hours at a time over the last two days and all ok. Not been into the software at all.

Probably put the kiss of death on it now but, so far so good and it looks like it may have just been a dodgy connection.


----------



## s0undgarden (Feb 22, 2020)

Is there still an issue connecting to the Helix via USB with camera kit 3? I'd like to know before I spend $40 on one.


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

s0undgarden said:


> Is there still an issue connecting to the Helix via USB with camera kit 3? I'd like to know before I spend $40 on one.


Yep no charging. Get the henkur off Amazon. Still buggy but charges. Sometimes 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## s0undgarden (Feb 22, 2020)

Redliner99 said:


> Yep no charging. Get the henkur off Amazon. Still buggy but charges. Sometimes
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thought about it but went ahead and just purchased the cc3 from apple. Not a fan of using cheap cables that aren't mfi certified. They can damage your phone.


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

s0undgarden said:


> Is there still an issue connecting to the Helix via USB with camera kit 3? I'd like to know before I spend $40 on one.


Yep no charging. Get the henkur off Amazon. Still buggy but charges. Sometimes 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

s0undgarden said:


> Is there still an issue connecting to the Helix via USB with camera kit 3? I'd like to know before I spend $40 on one.


Yep no charging. Get the henkur off Amazon. Still buggy but charges. Sometimes 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

s0undgarden said:


> Thought about it but went ahead and just purchased the cc3 from apple. Not a fan of using cheap cables that aren't mfi certified. They can damage your phone.


Mfi doesn't mean anything when it won't charge it's just for data transfer 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## s0undgarden (Feb 22, 2020)

Anybody know if this was fixed in iOS 14?


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

s0undgarden said:


> Anybody know if this was fixed in iOS 14?


I'm gonna go with no probably not. I haven't updated my phone yet so I can't confirm 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## s0undgarden (Feb 22, 2020)

Redliner99 said:


> I'm gonna go with no probably not. I haven't updated my phone yet so I can't confirm
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you know if I can still charge my phone and use it for audio at the same time if I use optical input instead? IPhone>camera kit>topping d10>helix


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

s0undgarden said:


> Do you know if I can still charge my phone and use it for audio at the same time if I use optical input instead? IPhone>camera kit>topping d10>helix


As far as I know the second you plug the camera kit in you lose charging reguardless of what downstream 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Redliner99 said:


> As far as I know the second you plug the camera kit in you lose charging reguardless of what downstream
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope, my topping works just fine and charges my phone, it’s literally the usb hec that causes grief, my topping/cck3 combo has never not charged the phone 👍🏼


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

s0undgarden said:


> Do you know if I can still charge my phone and use it for audio at the same time if I use optical input instead? IPhone>camera kit>topping d10>helix


You are fine, that’s never stopped!


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

dumdum said:


> Nope, my topping works just fine and charges my phone, it’s literally the usb hec that causes grief, my topping/cck3 combo has never not charged the phone


It's 100% the camera kit. What phone are you using? What software? Are you using an actual Apple camera kit? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Redliner99 said:


> It's 100% the camera kit. What phone are you using? What software? Are you using an actual Apple camera kit?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It doesn’t charge because it doesn’t recognise the accessory that is a hec...

the camera kit (genuine apple) works 100% with every other dac me and friends have put near it

but I’ll humour you, I have used an iPhone XR 256gb, iPad 10.1 2020, iPad mini 2 16gb and an iPad mini 5 256gb all with the same cck3 and several topping D10’s so it’s 100% not the CCK3, all the above devices except the mini 2 were updated with the latest version In the 13’s, my iPhone is on 13.5.1, the mini 2 has the latest it’s allowed, 12.4.8 and works just fine 👍🏼


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Redliner99 said:


> It's 100% the camera kit. What phone are you using? What software? Are you using an actual Apple camera kit?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can also find lots of topping D10/cck3 users on Facebook who all report the exact same, charges and works just fine, the stand-off is helix blame the Apple software (I would concur with this as lots of hecs worked with the cck3 before a certain time) and Apple cck3 kits work with lots of other devices just fine and charge perfectly well...


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

dumdum said:


> I can also find lots of topping D10/cck3 users on Facebook who all report the exact same, charges and works just fine, the stand-off is helix blame the Apple software (I would concur with this as lots of hecs worked with the cck3 before a certain time) and Apple cck3 kits work with lots of other devices just fine and charge perfectly well...


What are you running out if the topping? Coax?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Redliner99 said:


> What are you running out if the topping? Coax?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’ve used both optical (into a dsp.3) and coax (into an ultra), and I’ve used analogue out which isn’t as good as either of the above


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

dumdum said:


> I’ve used both optical (into a dsp.3) and coax (into an ultra), and I’ve used analogue out which isn’t as good as either of the above


Well no **** your charging works your not using the cck to usb directly into the hec. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Redliner99 said:


> Well no **** your charging works your not using the cck to usb directly into the hec.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you’ll read carefully with your ****ty tone, I never said I did! Show me where I did say I’d got a hec working, talk about going off on one for no reason... the guy above asked about a topping from a cck3 and you said it wouldn’t charge as per the pic below, I was correcting your 100% wrong answer! so before getting all antsy try actually reading what people ask and not answering with blanket assumptions...


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

dumdum said:


> If you’ll read carefully with your ****ty tone, I never said I did! Show me where I did say I’d got a hec working, talk about going off on one for no reason... the guy above asked about a topping from a cck3 and you said it wouldn’t charge as per the pic below, I was correcting your 100% wrong answer! so before getting all antsy try actually reading what people ask and not answering with blanket assumptions...
> 
> View attachment 275052


Ah yep your right I didn't read my bad 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Redliner99 said:


> Ah yep your right I didn't read my bad
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No worries 👍🏼


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

dumdum said:


> No worries


So does your d10 have to be powered off 12v?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cutaway (May 5, 2020)

dumdum said:


> I’ve used both optical (into a dsp.3) and coax (into an ultra), and I’ve used analogue out which isn’t as good as either of the above


i have read a few threads where people have compared the "Sound differences" between the use of the: COAX | Optical | USB & BlueTooth Hec(s) on the Helix DSP's. What has been your experience? At least with the Coax vs Opt?


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Redliner99 said:


> So does your d10 have to be powered off 12v?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, it takes power from the charging lead input via the cck3 👍🏼


----------



## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

Still charges fine with Apple and aftermarket Digital Camera Kits that are designed to charge.


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

dobslob said:


> Still charges fine with Apple and aftermarket Digital Camera Kits that are designed to charge.


What still charges fine? My phone hasn't worked with an Apple camera kit since Installed my helix over a year ago 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

dobslob said:


> Still charges fine with Apple and aftermarket Digital Camera Kits that are designed to charge.


I suspect it’s some form of digital signing of the device on the other end of the cck3, some DACs don’t work with the cck3 also, something Apple did with the firmware and the way the device signs through the camera kit I suspect, so it’s kind of half a dozen of one and six of the other I suspect, it’s not a happy marriage sadly, and I can’t see Apple just swapping the way devices work together anytime soon

it’s also why some devices don’t work with usb audio player pro also I suspect, I couldn’t get usb audio player pro to work with the hec so tested back to back with the horrid android audio layer upsampling stuff, but it may also have been my hub or device... but the topping from the Android/hub combo had no issues and worked with uapp, nor does it from my iPhone, hence my suspicion it’s a signing issue between the hec and the idevice/cck3, but I don’t know enough to tell you anymore or how to solve it sadly


----------



## Twonks (Nov 10, 2007)

I've contributed a few times to this and other threads about iPhones and my iPod touch not charging through the Apple camera kit 3 when plugged into the Helix USB audio board.

As mentioned above, I believe it is 100% caused by the Helix USB adaptor. This is either because it doesn't give a signal or code or whatever that Apple like, or the camera kit can't read said code or instruction from Helix.

The camera kit works with both the ipod and iphone on other systems for USB audio and charging, just not Helix. The Helix and both apple devices work through USB audio and charge the devices when using a 3rd party camera kit, and the Apple software version on the devices make no difference.

I've spoke to Helix a few times and it seems they are adamant it is an Apple problem. Not tried speaking to the techs at Apple, but would be good to know what the Apple hardware is looking for to allow the Helix to be used. So I can see why Helix say it is Apple but they don't seem to want to find out 'why' their kit isn't working.

Shame really but ultimately doesn't stop anybody using USB audio and charging a device, it just means you have to use a none Apple camera kit.

I've now got a new car and new Iphone 11 pro, so will be trying again once the install is in within a month or so, but I don't expect any differences.


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

dobslob said:


> Unfortunately there is nothing that Audiotec Fischer can do to change how the iPhone works aside from explain to them that they are upsetting customers because of their choices.
> 
> They are working on better solutions anyway and we should see the results soon.


Reading another thread on here it seems at one time Apple allowed any device to work with the camera kit, and then did an upgrade so that only Apple approved devices will work and charge with the camera kit, so helix need to get the usb hec approved so it signs correctly and digitally and all will be good

the guy in the thread in question bought a brand new cck3 and it worked fine until it updated it’s software et voila... it didn’t work once more, that’s why after market ones do work, because it’s the camera connection kit that is the issue and signing via usb which is pretty much what I figured, I just didn’t know why until he said that... whether it was phone or cck3... his result confirms it’s the cck3


----------



## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

Not sure why it’s the case but my iPhone still exhibits the same behavior as I’ve reported before:

Apple CCK + Helix USB HEC = charging only when phone already has 50%+ battery. 49% or lower then the phone does not charge.

Apple CCK + my USB to Coax converter > Helix = charging at all times despite battery level.

Apple CCK + other DAC’s > Helix = charge just fine at all times (according to user reports)

The discrepancies only occur when USB HEC is attached to CCK, so it appears to be an issue with the HEC USB protocol and the Apple CCK supporting it.


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Issues with iPhone X into Camera Adapter to USB on P Six


I have a Helix P Six with the USB card installed. I was running my iPhone X as a source directly from lightning to camera adapter to USB. This used to work well, and then stopped working. I ordered a new camera adapter, which worked for a day and then stopped too. Thankfully, I also have a...




www.diymobileaudio.com





this is the thread where someone mentions the digital signing 👍🏼


----------



## Cutaway (May 5, 2020)

IS this the Topping D10 that keeps getting referred to on the forum? Are people running this in their cars in between their Phone/Digital Source and their DSP's??? Sorry if its aN00b question, i'm just trying to keep up

Thanks in advance


----------



## juba (Aug 4, 2007)

Cutaway said:


> IS this the Topping D10 that keeps getting referred to on the forum? Are people running this in their cars in between their Phone/Digital Source and their DSP's??? Sorry if its aN00b question, i'm just trying to keep up
> 
> Thanks in advance


yes I believe so.

I use a smaller unit that works very well to get from USB to toslink and doesn’t need seperate power encore mdsd which is a nuprimehttps://www.headfonia.com/nuprime-hi-mdac-review/2/

iPhone 7 , camera kit, encore mdsd, glass optical cable, into audison bit 10


----------



## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

juba said:


> yes I believe so.
> 
> I use a smaller unit that works very well to get from USB to toslink and doesn’t need seperate power encore mdsd which is a nuprimehttps://www.headfonia.com/nuprime-hi-mdac-review/2/
> 
> iPhone 7 , camera kit, encore mdsd, glass optical cable, into audison bit 10


How are you getting optical out of either of those all I'm seeing is 3.5mm headphone out?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cutaway (May 5, 2020)

juba said:


> I use a smaller unit that works very well to get from USB to toslink and doesn’t need separate power encore mdsd which is a nuprime NuPrime Hi-mDAC Review - Headfonia Reviews


@juba Thanks for an alternative, at first glance it is very interesting and i will dig more into the article you provided...

I've finally come to the conclusion that currently the HEC USB card is not a good option for me due the to aptX codec. And since the COAX input tops out at 192 kHz this opens the door for a lot of options


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

juba said:


> yes I believe so.
> 
> I use a smaller unit that works very well to get from USB to toslink and doesn’t need seperate power encore mdsd which is a nuprimehttps://www.headfonia.com/nuprime-hi-mdac-review/2/
> 
> iPhone 7 , camera kit, encore mdsd, glass optical cable, into audison bit 10


The topping doesn’t need an extra power I should add... and that encore measures god damn awfully on the analogue output... bottom tier on audio science review... I wouldn’t ever put it’s analogue stages in the same boat as a topping D10 which is in the third tier... as they don’t test digital outputs it’s not really fit to compare but if the dac section is that much worse I’m not sure why the digital output circuitry will be as good either...









Review and Measurements of ENCORE mDSD DAC & Amp


This is a review and detailed measurements of the ENCORE mDSD portable DAC and headphone amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. The mDSD costs USD $126 on Amazon with free (non prime) shipping. The encore is quite chunky and blocks adjacent USB ports as a result: It is a solid chunk...




www.audiosciencereview.com


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Cutaway said:


> @juba Thanks for an alternative, at first glance it is very interesting and i will dig more into the article you provided...
> 
> I've finally come to the conclusion that currently the HEC USB card is not a good option for me due the to aptX codec. And since the COAX input tops out at 192 kHz this opens the door for a lot of options


Aptx bluetooth is good... a topping D10 via optical will show it up, better staging, stage height, stage and image definition will be next level compared 👍🏼


----------



## Cutaway (May 5, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Aptx bluetooth is good... a topping D10 via optical will show it up, better staging, stage height, stage and image definition will be next level compared 👍🏼


I thought the aptX is 44 kHz and the aptXHD is 48 kHz, which is CD quality sound but a lot of Streaming services now a days (Tidal, Amazon HD, ect...) are streaming higher @ 192 kHz and even SiriusXM streams at 128/160/320 now.
My thinking, and i could be totally off base, is i would rather use COAX (up to 192 on my COAX input) and this would allow me a wider range of signal quality where the BT HEC caps me at 48k and i think general consensus on the boards is that the USB HEC is no bueno also .

So now i am trying to find a balance between: Over All SQ; Amount of Devices needed and install time; Cost....

Current contemplation has been

Fiio M11 Pro tucked away and connected to the DSP via COAX and controlling via Phone
Phone as source connected to xxx and then to the DSP


----------



## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

As much as I want to believe im wrong, I can't say ive heard any significant difference between BT vs DSD on my Sony rsx gs9.


----------



## Cutaway (May 5, 2020)

GMCtrk said:


> As much as I want to believe im wrong, I can't say ive heard any significant difference between BT vs DSD on my Sony rsx gs9.


But do you think that has to do with the better codecs of the GS9??


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Cutaway said:


> I thought the aptX is 44 kHz and the aptXHD is 48 kHz, which is CD quality sound but a lot of Streaming services now a days (Tidal, Amazon HD, ect...) are streaming higher @ 192 kHz and even SiriusXM streams at 128/160/320 now.
> My thinking, and i could be totally off base, is i would rather use COAX (up to 192 on my COAX input) and this would allow me a wider range of signal quality where the BT HEC caps me at 48k and i think general consensus on the boards is that the USB HEC is no bueno also .
> 
> So now i am trying to find a balance between: Over All SQ; Amount of Devices needed and install time; Cost....
> ...


You do realise you don’t get any more detail with 96khz or wherever... it just increases the frequency it can play too... and unless you’re a dog you won’t hear it...

As for aptx and aptx hd... they are supposed to ‘sound like’ cd quality... not be cd quality... that’s from there own documentation

even bt 5.0 doesn’t stream cd quality... the improvements over 4.0 were with regard to range and reliability of connection rather than bandwidth improvements

add to this a bt hec is by 3.0 and doesn’t support aptx hd either 😒

a topping d10 is the best setup I’ve had in my car from an iPhone... android can be an odd setup with DACs, basically you won’t get bit perfect output from android unless you use usb audio player pro... or interestingly a hiby R6 whoch hiby have rewritten the android audio layer to not upsample everything... with any app installed... so you can use downloaded tidal files in the tidal app and get bit perfect... (you can’t use usb audio player pro to get bit perfect with downloaded tidal files 😒)


----------



## juba (Aug 4, 2007)

Redliner99 said:


> How are you getting optical out of either of those all I'm seeing is 3.5mm headphone out?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It’s a combined analog and optical digital out 3.5mm socket.


----------



## juba (Aug 4, 2007)

dumdum said:


> The topping doesn’t need an extra power I should add... and that encore measures god damn awfully on the analogue output... bottom tier on audio science review... I wouldn’t ever put it’s analogue stages in the same boat as a topping D10 which is in the third tier... as they don’t test digital outputs it’s not really fit to compare but if the dac section is that much worse I’m not sure why the digital output circuitry will be as good either...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


my error I assumed (argh) that topping would need power as quite hard for units to run below what cell phones can put out.

From a technical standpoint there are desktop/larger products that will drive lower impedance loads better yes, so it comes back to interpretation of results etc.

your conclusion of “aweful “ measurements does not align amirm s conclusion of “At that price it is pretty good.”

I predominantly use as a USB to optical bridge and I cannot find fault with its subjective performance In that function - I was worried about digital glare or jitter and/or hardness. I use it in my home system which is pretty revealing - pass labs scan speak etc. I have owned theta, tag McLaren, Meitner dacs

as a Dac it is subjectively reasonable sounding unit as other reviews attest.

I would use again and will continue to recommend others to should the topping option be too bulky.


----------



## S6Per (May 22, 2016)

Hi All,

Side question to this, as I'm wondering about going a similar route. I currently use iPhone 11- lighting to USB to Audi MMI - to Mobridge optical to Helix DSP Pro. I was leaning towards going USB direct to Helix (or now, after reading this thread, maybe with the D10), but am wondering if there'd actually be any advantage to doing this? USB and MMI is quirky as, for example, when connecting it starts playing the first song in my music library every single time...was wondering if I could avoid that. But - how would going this revised route work with head unit (MMI) integration / switching between phone as source and radio for example?
Thanks for any pointers..currently suffering a brain cramp trying to make sense of it 

-Per


----------



## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Don’t know what you’d gain going that route. Plus using the D10 instead of your current setup you would need either a Helix URC3 or a Director for digital volume. Have you tried updating your MMI?


----------



## S6Per (May 22, 2016)

Thanks, Dave. I've tried some MMI updates in the past to no avail (need to look into it again to see if there are updates).


----------

