# Amp selection : Mcintosh, TRU, ZAPCO, ARC



## flamefox850 (Feb 16, 2008)

if u have enough money to buy 1 of these amps...which brand would you prefer if u are looking for pure SQ ?

yerp..we are talking about the highest model of all these brand. u can also choose old model if u feel like the model u choose is superior than newer model.

vote pls 


p/s: and this amp will be use for tweeter or/and mid


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

Audison, Sinfoni, Steg, and Zuki would be some other choices.


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## flamefox850 (Feb 16, 2008)

opss..sorry. choose only from the stated amp brand...not others pls LOL


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## Vorlon (Nov 17, 2007)

+1 for TRU...expandibility, product support, shear quality, and the fact the own up to their mistakes and are willing to fix them for free (IE setting the bias to high on the 2005 Billet series -.-)


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

All of the above are going to get the job done just fine. It really should come down to what you're willing to spend and cosmetics.

I'm biased to the blue metered amps myself.


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## f#1man (Aug 29, 2007)

All of them are top notch. The c2k series from zapco would be comparable to say a Mac 404. Comparing the 2 side by side they were fairly close...almost identical (all components being the same of course). If you're going with TRU I would try to get my hands on the old copper series. Never had any experience with ARC but I would imagine it's fairly comparable to all the amps you've listed. 

Like someone said, it comes down to cosmetics and system integration. All of those amps will have plenty of raw clean power to run your drivers.


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## flamefox850 (Feb 16, 2008)

ok what about characteristic ? smooth sound ? fast ? accurate ? warm ? bla bla

which would YOU like?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Anything with brue on it is cool


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## spag_bace (Aug 24, 2006)

between zap and mac, i prefer the mac. tonality is more balance imo.


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## bafukie (Nov 23, 2007)

yikes.... those who posted are mac fans... now where are the zapco fans?


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## CAMSHAFT (Apr 7, 2006)

The Arc Audio Robert Zeff Signature Edition has been in the discussion with all of these amps (audiophile amps) for quite a while.....the funny thing is the SQ is about to increase even more (go figure) when the ALD (balanced line drivers) are released. I say go Arc SE!!


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## audiorailroad (Mar 6, 2007)

they are so close just flip a coin.


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*I am going to need someone to send me their McIntosh to test so I can give a more educated vote.  *


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## rush1 (Nov 18, 2007)

mcintosh mcc602tm... would love to have it in my system... heheh

Cheers,


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

rush1 said:


> mcintosh mcc602tm... would love to have it in my system... heheh
> 
> Cheers,


Better get a big truck to haul it around. Mine tips the scales at a scant 50 LBS. It's not as wide as the MC4000M, but outweighs it by a few pounds.


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## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

since purchasing zapco dc ref amps, i can't imagine life without internal processing, esp. for a 4-way system.

do the right thing, be a man! ;]

*-fixtion*


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## chijioke penny (Mar 22, 2007)

bafukie said:


> yikes.... those who posted are mac fans... now where are the zapco fans?


My vote is for the Zapco c2k and The Tru techn


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

Never owned a Mac...someday..

Cant go wrong with any of the aforementioned amplifiers.


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## ianbiz (May 13, 2008)

Mcintosh just because they are straight up ballin'


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## OgreDave (Jul 13, 2005)

The real question is, how valid is this poll .. how many ppl actually compared these amps? I think the amp wars threads on ECA were sweet .. w/the reviewers generally agreeing which ones sounded the best.


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## drtool (Nov 26, 2007)

I have Mac in the house and Zap in the cars. With the new DC.in the Zaps I really don't see how you could go wrong.


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## eurofvr (May 19, 2008)

Mcintosh all the way!! Sound quality is amazing.


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## legend94 (Mar 15, 2006)

having owned all of the above amps at some point they all are top notch. id have a really hard time believing they could be separated in a true a/b test. it all comes down to what you need 

i need the classic look of a mcintosh with that sweet power guard


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

I have no experience with the TRU ....I'll take the Mc any day.

>^..^<


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## f6a-turbo (May 24, 2008)

TRU for me


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## poochieone (Aug 25, 2005)

like several have stated before, flip a coin and you'll get an amazing amp!
my car' shad every one of the subject amps in it at one time or another, and currently has two of them and i can't really say which sounds better, they are both excellent period.
however if you are looking for bling or to make a statement, i would say the Mac and the TRU will aesthetically stand out above the rest....


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

Tough call.... Mc or zap...... Black 'n' blue or straightforward oldskool design with a straightforward heatsink...... I'd love to own a couple ZxxxC#-SL amps..... But other than design, I wouldn't be able to choose. If I hadn't stumbled upon this great Mc deal, I wouldn't have known (I skipped on a batch of new oldskool zapcos because of headroom issues (no refurbs but actually new, although they were already 10yo....


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## alg_alg (Jun 13, 2006)

depends on what drivers you're planning to use. at the end of the day, it'll be just good old amp/speaker matching.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

None of the above.


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## LauZaIM (Feb 20, 2008)

I'd only buy one of those if I had an infinite supply of money. Otherwise I'd get a JL and spend the rest on something else...


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

if it were me, I would go with the Mac or the Tru..... both of those seem more collectible....I do think the mac would look better on my wall though..... mounted in my living room with the blue lights on would be so cool


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

looks like it's between the mac and the zapco....I like DC's. might as well be able to tune.


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## Shinju (Jul 11, 2008)

Zapco, The Sound Quality and can't beat the balanced symbilink technology

All those amplifiers have good quality!


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

Shinju said:


> Zapco, The Sound Quality and can't beat the balanced symbilink technology
> 
> All those amplifiers have good quality!


DC's are sick..
Great design..
Iv had 2 Zapco systems
one with the Z200c2-Sl's
one with Refrence350's
both great..


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## Shinju (Jul 11, 2008)

tr0y_audi0 said:


> DC's are sick..
> Great design..
> Iv had 2 Zapco systems
> one with the Z200c2-Sl's
> ...


I just sold my last Reference 360 4 channel (old school) I loved it.

Rated low but sounded really good.

I never had any field experience with DC so I can’t comment on them.

If you got the Greenbacks McIntosh is outstanding. Magnolia Hi-Fi in my area before they cut their car audio section out just started to sell those.

Amazing sound and craftsmanship.


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## SQfreak (Feb 13, 2007)

89grand said:


> None of the above.


x2


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

Street noise in San Diego has both on display..
great demo room..


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

The McIntosh MCC602TM is in a different league than all of those mentioned IMO. My unadulterated opinion is that the big Mc (602TM) is at the top of the heap (probably one of the top-3 amplifiers for straight-up sound quality built today), with the remainder of the Mc line-up being about equal to the others mentioned (MCC204, MCC404, etc.).

Scott


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## SQfreak (Feb 13, 2007)

Scott Buwalda said:


> The McIntosh MCC602TM is in a different league than all of those mentioned IMO. My unadulterated opinion is that the big Mc (602TM) is at the top of the heap (probably one of the top-3 amplifiers for straight-up sound quality built today), with the remainder of the Mc line-up being about equal to the others mentioned (MCC204, MCC404, etc.).
> 
> Scott




What makes one class a/b amp a sound quality amp over the other?


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Cumming, GA? I live in Cumming. 

What makes one class A/B amp an SQ amp over another? High quality components including low ESR, high-temperature capacitors; audiophile, hand-matched close tolerance parts. A significant number of bipolar output devices. Balanced input to output (no high current connections to the internal audio ground, menaing VERY low distortion [virtually no THD and IMD]). A S/N ratio of greater than 116 dB. Balanced push-pull design. Precisely matched voltage gain of both channels. Standard RCA *and* balanced XLR (not cheap crap connectors that need to be hot-glued in to make sure they stay or out board black boxes). Dual power supplies; isolated and fully regulated. An amp that never gets hot. Very high stereo separation. No built-in processing B.S. (especially processing that can't be defeated). 

That pretty much sums it up.

Scott


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## tristan20 (Nov 28, 2005)

Scott Buwalda said:


> The McIntosh MCC602TM is in a different league than all of those mentioned IMO. My unadulterated opinion is that the big Mc (602TM) is at the top of the heap (probably one of the top-3 amplifiers for straight-up sound quality built today), with the remainder of the Mc line-up being about equal to the others mentioned (MCC204, MCC404, etc.).
> 
> Scott



I agreed, that amp is a monster, with it two huge sets of squared balls


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

Scott Buwalda said:


> The McIntosh MCC602TM is in a different league than all of those mentioned IMO. My unadulterated opinion is that the big Mc (602TM) is at the top of the heap (probably one of the top-3 amplifiers for straight-up sound quality built today), with the remainder of the Mc line-up being about equal to the others mentioned (MCC204, MCC404, etc.).
> 
> Scott


what are the other 2?


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

I wish it didn't have processing built in, but this design looks absolutely spectacular as well:

http://english.gttrading.it/easysite/msk-50.htm

I could probably come up with a top-5. These two amps would be in there. Another amp of mention would be the Celestra VA250.

Scott


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## Shinju (Jul 11, 2008)

Scott Buwalda said:


> I wish it didn't have processing built in, but this design looks absolutely spectacular as well:
> 
> http://english.gttrading.it/easysite/msk-50.htm
> 
> ...



Pretty beefy lil bugger isn't it?


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## dingaling (Apr 14, 2005)

Shinju said:


> Pretty beefy lil bugger isn't it?




beefy, but not that impressive. 
to me, it sounded like a well built amp, but didn't stand out enough to really warrant it's price.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Bipolar women = bad

Bipolar output devices = good

Dual power supplies = the only way to go


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Shinju said:


> Pretty beefy lil bugger isn't it?


Looks quite well built to me...

http://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e40/6spdcoupe/Celestra/


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

I've run the MCC602TM, MCC404M, MC4000M and most of their other amps. In my opinion there wasn't any noticeable sound quality differences in them. The build quality is definitely a step up on the MCC602TM plus you get to have lots of fun putting the heavy bastard in your trunk.


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## tristan20 (Nov 28, 2005)

ahh yes the Masterstroke, my MSK3000 does sound better than most of the amps I have owned. To bad Steg isnt as known in this part of the world.

I would probably add sinfoni to that list also, the 60.1HDs are amazing monoblocks.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

TRU, who else serial# matches the To3 output devices?


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

a$$hole said:


> Anything with brue on it is cool


Then I guess I vote .....SOUNDSTREAM....but only true BLUE Soundstream.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

tristan20 said:


> ahh yes the Masterstroke, my MSK3000 does sound better than most of the amps I have owned. To bad Steg isnt as known in this part of the world.
> 
> I would probably add sinfoni to that list also, the 60.1HDs are amazing monoblocks.


Yes ....Steg MAsterstroke.

Beautiful.

Anyone know if those TRUELY are built in Italy?

As in board stuffing...soldering....and assembling in heatsink.

Or do they just grab it off a pallet from China or Korea... pop a few screws in before stuffing it in a box?


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## stump (Jul 19, 2008)

Id be happy with any !!


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

Who has actually owned all of these amps and can actually make a statement..or have an unbiased opinion?... Well I own all these brands and got rid of the mcintosh long ago... I believe that mcintosh is good but highly overated.. Tru is out of price range for most so really dont spend and have to resort to these kinds of posts....I believe you should listen for yourselfs....use that credit card and take it back and exchange for another one....hope the store has the models you want to compare,and dont take anyones word for it....Most are biased.... And we know this.... ... 
ZAPCO C2K WITH S LINK
TRU
ARC
MCINTOSH
ALL OPINIONS, BUT MY CHOICE WAS WITH A CLARION 745 AND A DENON 9770 WITH STUDIO MONITORS....AND B&W NAUTS......
BUT THATS MY OPINION.......PEACE...... OH I HAVE A TRU NEW MEANING NO POWER OR SCREW MARKS AND PLASTIC...I MIGHT POST UP SOON HERE AND XXK C2KS AND CARSOUND AND ELITE..... ALRATO....


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

stump said:


> Id be happy with any !!


probably not....you would be to start with...then you might as well get another...maybe a new one of these....never happy!!!


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## tristan20 (Nov 28, 2005)

I have owned all, and I gave my opinion


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

Ah tristan lee most of us know that you have owned a lot... you might have even got my 9.0 if i lowered...but owning and hooking them up to the same system are 2 diffrent things.... by the way you got any hammers laying around....hahah....peace....


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## tristan20 (Nov 28, 2005)

I test and listen to every amp I buy, and I try to determine flaws if any

Same system setup all the time
Denon Z1, Harmon Kardon Bookshelf speakers, (Sometimes my Dali Helicons). Cascade Powersupply, kimber kable heros.

I have enough 9.0s, best subwoofer amp ever made IMO.

There is a rare copper hammer on ebay now.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

I'd buy some cheap good amps and call it a day.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

nakamichidenon said:


> Who has actually owned all of these amps and can actually make a statement..or have an unbiased opinion?... Well I own all these brands and got rid of the mcintosh long ago... I believe that mcintosh is good but highly overated.. *Tru is out of price range for most* so really dont spend and have to resort to these kinds of posts....I believe you should listen for yourselfs....use that credit card and take it back and exchange for another one....hope the store has the models you want to compare,and dont take anyones word for it....Most are biased.... And we know this.... ...
> ZAPCO C2K WITH S LINK
> TRU
> ARC
> ...


Tru makes amps starting around $799 retail. Not exactly cheap, but no more than your avereage Zapco, Arc, McIntosh.


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

flamefox850 said:


> if u have enough money to buy 1 of these amps...which brand would you prefer if u are looking for pure SQ ?
> 
> yerp..we are talking about the highest model of all these brand. u can also choose old model if u feel like the model u choose is superior than newer model.
> 
> ...


Well lets see.....we were comparing.......if you want to get technical....top of the line so .....tru would be cooper series..........zapco....c2k......and ect..........so thats were my tru coment came in......Would you agree?... you say retail on a tru amp.....well we are comparing top of the line.....if you can get me a copper series for 799 retaill....i will give you an extra 100 bucks...... peace....


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

nakamichidenon said:


> Well lets see.....we were comparing.......if you want to get technical....top of the line so .....tru would be cooper series..........zapco....c2k......and ect..........so thats were my tru coment came in......Would you agree?... you say retail on a tru amp.....well we are comparing top of the line.....if you can get me a copper series for 799 retaill....i will give you an extra 100 bucks...... peace....


Ok, well if you wanna get technical, for current models, tru's top of the line are the Billets. The copper's are not available. You can get a billet 475 for $1250 retail.

Also, I beleive McIntosh makes a $3k+ amp. Zapco has some stuff that is $3k+. And then Arc, which basically ARC is just Zapco lite.  

http://zapco.com/prod/comp_prods/c2k90Frame.htm

So what was your point again?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Prolly a Zuki for even less http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44290



$325.00 instead of $405.00


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

Don't forget you buying the name, reputation, prestige, legacy and an overall proven product. A product can be the current best in the world but don't last long enough to suffice. I would chose zapco due to my bias perception. They have stood the test of time in the car audio arena.


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## ATF Kuk (Jul 15, 2005)

nakamichidenon said:


> Who has actually owned all of these amps and can actually make a statement..or have an unbiased opinion?... Well I own all these brands and got rid of the mcintosh long ago... I believe that mcintosh is good but highly overated.. Tru is out of price range for most so really dont spend and have to resort to these kinds of posts....I believe you should listen for yourselfs....use that credit card and take it back and exchange for another one....hope the store has the models you want to compare,and dont take anyones word for it....Most are biased.... And we know this.... ...
> ZAPCO C2K WITH S LINK
> TRU
> ARC
> ...




WHY ARE YOU YELLING? whats with the double post? n00b


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

Originally Posted by nakamichidenon 
Well lets see.....we were comparing.......if you want to get technical....top of the line so .....tru would be cooper series..........zapco....c2k......and ect..........so thats were my tru coment came in......Would you agree?... you say retail on a tru amp.....well we are comparing top of the line.....if you can get me a copper series for 799 retaill....i will give you an extra 100 bucks...... peace.... 

Ok, well if you wanna get technical, for current models, tru's top of the line are the Billets. The copper's are not available. You can get a billet 475 for $1250 retail.

Also, I beleive McIntosh makes a $3k+ amp. Zapco has some stuff that is $3k+. And then Arc, which basically ARC is just Zapco lite. 

http://zapco.com/prod/comp_prods/c2k90Frame.htm

So what was your point again? 
My point is that the copper series is the most expensive...thats my point.....and yes while you may not be able to get it from the manufacturer or afford to buy it....it is still the most expensive.....that is my point......again i have owned all these brands.......and i know of 2 people i can buy these copper series from........so you get my point.......tru copper.....most expensive......
I joined the forums for 3 things.....for to buy,sell and knowledge....if you dont bring any to the table.......s t f u .......peace....


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

ATF Kuk said:


> WHY ARE YOU YELLING? whats with the double post? n00b


I joined the forums for 3 things.....for to buy,sell and knowledge....if you dont bring any to the table.......s t f u .......peace.... 

8-22-2004 carsound.com and this doesnt mean ****....but whos the noob?..... I dont know why people like to side bust....talk out of your ass.....i mean really.......look at my posts....look at yours.....i dont have time for ********....this thread is ABOUT...AMP SELECTION......so ....what amps of these have you owned?......Wheres your input?.... thank you.....


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

you guys feel better?


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

nakamichidenon said:


> .......s t f u .......peace....


Like water and oil...


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

nakamichidenon said:


> My point is that the copper series is the most expensive...thats my point.....and yes while you may not be able to get it from the manufacturer or afford to buy it....it is still the most expensive.....that is my point......again i have owned all these brands.......and i know of 2 people i can buy these copper series from........so you get my point.......tru copper.....most expensive......
> I joined the forums for 3 things.....for to buy,sell and knowledge....if you dont bring any to the table.......s t f u .......peace....


Copper series is the most expensive what? Vapor ware? It doesn't exist yet. John Yi has said that the coppers are taking a back burner to the steels and billets. So, currently, Billet's are the top TRU amps. I would say I could afford to buy a copper, if they existed in the current line. However, being that pricing is TBA, I don't know how you can say they are "out of price range for most". Especially being that Zapco and McIntosh make $4,000+ amps. Did you forget that you specified "most expensive of these brands". Zapco makes a $9,000 amp!?!?? 

Off Topic: Why do you write like a 4 year old? "......" is not substitutable for a comma, at least not without making everything you write painful to read. Can you try using sentences, instead of fragments of thoughts followed by a series of dots? I know one other person on this forum that type's like that, and I have a feeling you are both one and the same. (I think I even met you) This makes you a tool in my book. 

I also came to this forum for 3 things. To converse with intelligent, coherent, knowledgeable people about one of my favorite hobbys. To learn from those that can use proper sentence structure, and can do basic math, and to contribute whenever I can in a logical and helpful manner. You sir possess none of these qualities, which means that I have no interest in anything you have to say. If you learn to use proper sentence structure, speak in full sentences, using proper punctuation, grammar, and wording, you might get a respectful response from me. Until that day, in your own words "STFU"

Edit* Nice name, I think i'm going to call myself EclipseAlpine.


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Copper series is the most expensive what? Vapor ware? It doesn't exist yet. John Yi has said that the coppers are taking a back burner to the steels and billets. So, currently, Billet's are the top TRU amps. I would say I could afford to buy a copper, if they existed in the current line. However, being that pricing is TBA, I don't know how you can say they are "out of price range for most". Especially being that Zapco and McIntosh make $4,000+ amps. Did you forget that you specified "most expensive of these brands". Zapco makes a $9,000 amp!?!??
> 
> Off Topic: Why do you write like a 4 year old? "......" is not substitutable for a comma, at least not without making everything you write painful to read. Can you try using sentences, instead of fragments of thoughts followed by a series of dots? I know one other person on this forum that type's like that, and I have a feeling you are both one and the same. (I think I even met you) This makes you a tool in my book.
> 
> ...


Phone // +1 818 248 6590 call John at tru.....anyone please and ask him but if you know...tru already made cooper series from 03-05 limited run. 

So please dont talk unless you know. Yes the new copper series are not out yet,that is true but they have made some before.

I type quickly and dont analyze what i justed typed,not to conserned about the grammar on this,its not an essay for a test,again prove yourself to look like a jack ass and call John tommorow and ask him,have you made a copper series before......thank you.... hahahahaa... I might add that I own one of the first tru amps that put tru on the map, i have brand new in a box back in 03. 

zapco 9000 dollar amp?..you mean the 2 9.0s stacked together..um yes i own one and 3 9.0....so again little man unless you have owned all these amps they are asking about and can make a suggestion for the person asking the question...S T F U and please grow up wrx/z28,you seem to me like one of those punks i beat down the street to the next light and just seem to never give up because they seem to think they own something special and cant face defeat. You still have nothing to say, and have min experience with equipment as i took the time so scroll down your posts.... alrato....

My first choice was zapco
ZAPCO C2K WITH S LINK
TRU
ARC
MCINTOSH
ALL OPINIONS, BUT MY CHOICE WAS WITH A CLARION 745 AND A DENON 9770 WITH STUDIO MONITORS....AND B&W NAUTS......
BUT THATS MY OPINION.......PEACE...... OH I HAVE A TRU NEW MEANING NO POWER OR SCREW MARKS AND PLASTIC...I MIGHT POST UP SOON HERE AND XXK C2KS AND CARSOUND AND ELITE..... ALRATO....


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## stereojnky (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm currently using the dc series Zapcos and I love them but I've always wanted to try the Mcintosh. So there, I said it.


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## MazDAMN (Feb 3, 2008)

TRU

Love those amps SUPERIOR quality.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

nakamichidenon said:


> Phone // +1 818 248 6590 call John at tru.....anyone please and ask him but if you know...tru already made cooper series from 03-05 limited run.
> 
> So please dont talk unless you know. Yes the new copper series are not out yet,that is true but they have made some before.
> 
> ...


Thanks for providing me the number for TRU off the website, but I actually have John's cell #. Sorry if that sounded like a pissing match, but you seem to be very mistaken about me. 

First, I work for a TRU dealer, which does not necessarily make me an expert, but does mean that I know they have made coppers in the past. My point is they do not make them now. Also, my main point was that TRU's are not "Out of range for most people" as you suggested. The coppers are probably going to be relatively expensive yes, but I'm sitting here looking at my dealer price sheet, and they're TBA. So there's no way for you to know that for sure. The Steel's and Billets are very reasonable IMO for the quality of amp they are. I'd put the steel's as comparable price/performance to a JL. 

And yes, that was the zapco I was referring to. Case in point that other vendors in this thread make "Expensive" amplifiers that are "out of range" for most consumers. 

Anyway, O/T again. Everyone rolling their eyes at this thread at this point, please avert your eyes. 

You still show the education level of a teenager at best, and your "internet threats" confirm my suspicion that you are most likely 16-22 years old. Noone that is an educated adult on this forum would carry on with the nonsense that you do. I'm not even going to bother to insult you since you are doing a good job of making yourself look like an ass on your own. 

Thanks for the reply's though, you're entertaining to say the least.


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

Originally Posted by WRX/Z28 
Copper series is the most expensive what? Vapor ware? It doesn't exist yet. John Yi has said that the coppers are taking a back burner to the steels and billets 
First, I work for a TRU dealer, which does not necessarily make me an expert, but does mean that I know they have made coppers in the past. My point is they do not make them now.

Amp selection : Mcintosh, TRU, ZAPCO, A

if u have enough money to buy 1 of these amps...which brand would you prefer if u are looking for pure SQ ?

yerp..we are talking about the highest model of all these brand. u can also choose old model if u feel like the model u choose is superior than newer model.

vote pls 

Again....read the thread....

Question,have you owned all the amps mentioned ....top of the line zapco,tru,arc and mcintosh.....

Its simple,,,the answer is no, because you would have mentioned this,you keep flapping about my quote on copper series,for being a tru fan and working for a dealer,you are arguing against your own product...

Anyhow,,, until you have owned all of these products and listen to them.... s t f u again...... you are silly...... oh and anyone can see on my posts what i have for sale....like i said i sold my macs...peace.....


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

I'm not even going to quote your garbage. It's too hard to read. The only point I got was that you think I have no experience with the other brands. Still not true. I've sold and installed all of the brands you've mentioned. Definately have familiarity with all of them. 
Also, by TRU's own account, the billets are more advanced than their earlier designs. You still are incorrect about TRU being more expensive than any of the brands listed, top end for top end. I think that was the point of your rambling nonsense. Try harder to stay coherent. It will do wonders for your posting quality. As always STFU until you have something constructive to say.


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> I'm not even going to quote your garbage. It's too hard to read. The only point I got was that you think I have no experience with the other brands. Still not true. I've sold and installed all of the brands you've mentioned. Definately have familiarity with all of them.
> Also, by TRU's own account, the billets are more advanced than their earlier designs. You still are incorrect about TRU being more expensive than any of the brands listed, top end for top end. I think that was the point of your rambling nonsense. Try harder to stay coherent. It will do wonders for your posting quality. As always STFU until you have something constructive to say.



Again....read the thread....

Question,have you owned all the amps mentioned ....top of the line zapco,tru,arc and mcintosh.....

Its simple,,,the answer is no, because you would have mentioned this,you keep flapping about my quote on copper series,for being a tru fan and working for a dealer,you are arguing against your own product...
Oh and i never threatend you...if you didnt understand my statement,then ask somebody.....peace..


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

Anyone else see his point? Is ownership required, or is install, listening experience enough? lol. I'm sure everyone else stopped paying attention long ago. 

Again, you should take your own advice and read the thread. 
I've read the whole thread, nowhere did the OP state you had to own all of the above. That's an assumption that you made, and you know what happens when you assume. I also fail to see where i'm "arguing against my own product". You make very little sense in all of this, and I guess i'm just bored enough at work to bother to reply. 

Enjoy your stay in Tool-dom, at least you're the king there.


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Anyone else see his point? Is ownership required, or is install, listening experience enough? lol. I'm sure everyone else stopped paying attention long ago.
> 
> Again, you should take your own advice and read the thread.
> I've read the whole thread, nowhere did the OP state you had to own all of the above. That's an assumption that you made, and you know what happens when you assume. I also fail to see where i'm "arguing against my own product". You make very little sense in all of this, and I guess i'm just bored enough at work to bother to reply.
> ...


1...yerp..we are talking about the highest model of all these brand. u can also choose old model if u feel like the model u choose is superior than newer model.
-----------I mentioned copper series.....this is what you replied....
Originally Posted by WRX/Z28 
Copper series is the most expensive what? Vapor ware? It doesn't exist yet. John Yi has said that the coppers are taking a back burner to the steels and billets


So you are looking stupid right there .....enough said.....peace....


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

nakamichidenon said:


> 1...yerp..we are talking about the highest model of all these brand. u can also choose old model if u feel like the model u choose is superior than newer model.
> -----------I mentioned copper series.....this is what you replied....
> Originally Posted by WRX/Z28
> Copper series is the most expensive what? Vapor ware? It doesn't exist yet. John Yi has said that the coppers are taking a back burner to the steels and billets
> ...


Oh my god dude. Seriously, no smack talk, is english a second language for you or what?


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Thanks for providing me the number for TRU off the website, but I actually have John's cell #. Sorry if that sounded like a pissing match, but you seem to be very mistaken about me.
> 
> First, I work for a TRU dealer, which does not necessarily make me an expert, but *does mean that I know they have made coppers in the past. My point is they do not make them now.* Also, my main point was that TRU's are not "Out of range for most people" as you suggested. The coppers are probably going to be relatively expensive yes, but I'm sitting here looking at my dealer price sheet, and they're TBA. So there's no way for you to know that for sure. The Steel's and Billets are very reasonable IMO for the quality of amp they are. I'd put the steel's as comparable price/performance to a JL.
> 
> ...


I bolded it for you in case your reading comprehension is limited only to text in bold/italics/underlined.

It would seem that (reading, writing, comprehension, math) > you.


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

WRX/Z28;524019 said:


> Copper series is the most expensive what? Vapor ware? It doesn't exist yet. John Yi has said that the coppers are taking a back burner to the steels and billets. So, currently, Billet's are the top TRU amps. I would say I could afford to buy a copper, if they existed in the current line. However, being that pricing is TBA, I don't know how you can say they are "out of price range for most". Especially being that Zapco and McIntosh make $4,000+ amps. Did you forget that you specified "most expensive of these brands". Zapco makes a $9,000 amp!?!??
> 
> Off Topic: Why do you write like a 4 year old? "......" is not substitutable for a comma, at least not without making everything you write painful to read. Can you try using sentences, instead of fragments of thoughts followed by a series of dots? I know one other person on this forum that type's like that, and I have a feeling you are both one and the same. (I think I even met you) This makes you a tool in my book.
> 
> ...


You are funny and here i colored it so you can read.....seems you stuck your foot in your a^s again and dont see it.... hahaha


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## weng (Jun 7, 2006)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Off Topic: Why do you write like a 4 year old? "......" is not substitutable for a comma, at least not without making everything you write painful to read. Can you try using sentences, instead of fragments of thoughts followed by a series of dots? I know one other person on this forum that type's like that, and I have a feeling you are both one and the same. (I think I even met you) This makes you a tool in my book.


Well the man that made many people think that "a watt is a watt" (I know I know it's not that simple really ) type exactly like that. But I'm sure he is not a 4 year old

Well not exactly using ".....", but "----" 

http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=2759


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

nakamichidenon said:


> You are funny and here i colored it so you can read.....seems you stuck your foot in your a^s again and dont see it.... hahaha


Meaning the new iteration of coppers. I think the OP was referring to current models that he could purchase in a store. You can't currently purchase a copper any other way than 2nd hand. I stuck my foot nowhere sir. 

Explain to me again how TRU is more expensive than Zapco or McIntosh by current retail pricing. I could pick up a used copper for sub $2k pricing, but that's not what i'm talking about here, nor is it their "top series". The old coppers are not on par with the newer Billets AFAIK. So Top of the line again for a currently available TRU amp would be, yes you guessed it, Billets. I could have a Billet Copper plated if it would make you feel better. lol 

Lets assume for a second that we were referring to the old coppers (I never was),* How are they more expensive than a Zapco or McIntosh again? * You still have never answered this question! 

Math > you! 



weng said:


> Well the man that made many people think that "a watt is a watt" (I know I know it's not that simple really ) type exactly like that. But I'm sure he is not a 4 year old
> 
> Well not exactly using ".....", but "----"
> 
> http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=2759



I hope you are not suggesting that this tool is Richard Clark. lol. 

Also, does this prove it's not an asinine way to write?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

nakamichidenon said:


> top of the line so .....tru would be cooper series..............


If we're talking about older models I thought this was the best TRU had ever offered
http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/TRU_AC-1/


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

flamefox850 said:


> if u have enough money to buy 1 of these amps...which brand would you prefer if u are looking for pure SQ ?
> 
> yerp..we are talking about the highest model of all these brand. u can also choose old model if u feel like the model u choose is superior than newer model.
> vote pls
> ...


Ok smart guy...again. Clearly he says choose old model if u fell like the model u choose is superior than newer model. Now are you that dumb that you know you cant buy an out of stock or discontinued product from the manufacturer?... bottom line is you said Originally Posted by WRX/Z28 
Copper series is the most expensive what? Vapor ware? It doesn't exist yet. John Yi has said that the coppers are taking a back burner to the steels and billets

Now anyone here knows that you will pay more for a c7 or copper series amp than any zapco or mcintosh......so what are you talking about.?./.. I will keep explaining until you understand little man...peace...


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> If we're talking about older models I thought this was the best TRU had ever offered
> http://ampguts.realmofexcursion.com/TRU_AC-1/


Not according to TRU, no 4 layer board, no interchangeable pre-amp cards. Unless they tell different things to different people, they tell me that the Billets are the best things they have made to date, untill the *new coppers* come out.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Not according to TRU, no 4 layer board, no interchangeable pre-amp cards. Unless they tell different things to different people, they tell me that the Billets are the best things they have made to date, untill the *new coppers* come out.


Technically that may be true since they didn't actually make their older amps.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

nakamichidenon said:


> Ok smart guy...again. Clearly he says choose old model if u fell like the model u choose is superior than newer model. Now are you that dumb that you know you cant buy an out of stock or discontinued product from the manufacturer?... bottom line is you said Originally Posted by WRX/Z28
> Copper series is the most expensive what? Vapor ware? It doesn't exist yet. John Yi has said that the coppers are taking a back burner to the steels and billets
> 
> Now anyone here knows that you will pay more for a c7 or copper series amp than any zapco or mcintosh......so what are you talking about.?./.. I will keep explaining until you understand little man...peace...


the key words are "if you feel it is superior", which I don't. 

Also, hmmm... copper: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110271349407&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=001

Hmmm McIntosh: http://cgi.ebay.com/McIntosh-MC-400...ryZ18795QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Hmmm Zapco: http://zapco.com/prod/comp_prods/c2k90Frame.htm

I dunno man, my math is only so-so, but last I checked, $2,100 < $4,000 or even $2500 for the McIntosh. Also $2100 < $3613.99 for the Zapco, but if you're using some new fangled math that is > me, please explain it. 

[/thread] Game over, you have no clue what you are talking about, as proved above. Thanks for playing and good night.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> Technically that may be true since they didn't actually make their older amps.


Really? Who did? Abyss?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Really? Who did? Abyss?


They definitely weren't made in the USA like Tru claimed.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> They definitely weren't made in the USA like Tru claimed.


Ok....


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

Again silly you are showing an amp that has been sold... cheap actually ...but non the less an amp that has not sold that if i remember correctly hes been trying to sell for a bit....and then a retail on a zapco website.....here.....i will let you look at a real one... oh dont mind the old 6.0 in front or the xxk on the side.... [email protected] like i said check my posts.....again little man....you cant get out of what you said... you said


WRX/Z28 
Copper series is the most expensive what? Vapor ware? It doesn't exist yet.

Like i said i will continue to reply until you get it right..... ------TREO---NAKAMICHI--USD--VELODYNE--KICKER


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

nakamichidenon said:


> Again silly you are showing an amp that has been sold... cheap actually ...but non the less an amp that has not sold that if i remember correctly hes been trying to sell for a bit....and then a retail on a zapco website.....here.....i will let you look at a real one... oh dont mind the old 6.0 in front or the xxk on the side.... [email protected] like i said check my posts.....again little man....you cant get out of what you said... you said
> 
> 
> WRX/Z28
> ...



Keep posting it, I'm not getting out of anything, I said Copper series doesn't exist yet, referring to the NEW COPPER SERIES. If you don't get that, then comprehension > you. I've bid on, and PM'd about buying an older copper for my collection. I've known about them since they were first made. Ask Iyamwutiam. 

Here's where I asked him about his Copper, OVER A MONTH AGO! 

"4 Weeks Ago 
iyamwutiam 
DIYMA Novice


Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 367 


iTrader: (5)
Re: Copper C7 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by WRX/Z28 
Still have this amp for sale? Local pickup? 

Sorry bro- sold to little 4 banger- it is a very nice amp. Quite warm- but the midbass sucks- very good for a 3 way if yu have a small tweet and mid that doesn't play midbass."

So yes, I knew they made those amps, but they aren't current, which is why I called them vaporware. The new series hasn't arrived yet. Did you really not follow what I meant, or are you just being an ass?


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

flamefox850 said:


> if u have enough money to buy 1 of these amps...which brand would you prefer if u are looking for pure SQ ?
> 
> yerp..we are talking about the highest model of all these brand. u can also choose old model if u feel like the model u choose is superior than newer model.
> vote pls
> ...


comprehension > you. Ok so if you see he says older,then you must know i am reffering to older since i agreed with you that yes the new copper series is not out yet.....So do you understand where you fkd up?....or no?...


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

nakamichidenon said:


> comprehension > you. Ok so if you see he says older,then you must know i am reffering to older since i agreed with you that yes the new copper series is not out yet.....So do you understand where you fkd up?....or no?...


I understand that you didn't comprehend, but why would you assume that I meant the 2-4 year old coppers weren't available yet, and not realize that I was referring to the new copper series. Was it that hard to follow?


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

Ok ...again....you are really retarded...i said copper series,you side busted and said vaporware it does not exist yet...Well we are talking about old models and copper series == old model now where did you get the idea that i was talking about a non existent amp?.... So no you dont understand what the fk you are arguing about....hahahahah


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

nakamichidenon said:


> Tru is out of price range for most so really dont spend and have to resort to these kinds of posts....


So, how did TRU (you didn't specify copper), get voted "out of range for most" but Zapco and McIntosh didn't? You make no sense. 



nakamichidenon said:


> Ok ...again....you are really retarded...i said copper series,you side busted and said vaporware it does not exist yet...Well we are talking about old models and copper series == old model now where did you get the idea that i was talking about a non existent amp?.... So no you dont understand what the fk you are arguing about....hahahahah


I assumed that since you were saying "out of range for most" we were talking about new, full retail amps. $2100 is not out of reach IMO, and is obviously not any more than some top offerings from Zapco or McIntosh, which I think was what your point was. So like I said, you are wrong, TRU's amps are not any more expensive than the top offerings from Zapco and McIntosh. 

[/retarded discussion with a moron that has gone on for about 3 pages too long]


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> So, how did TRU (you didn't specify copper), get voted "out of range for most" but Zapco and McIntosh didn't? You make no sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


so what does that make you?... hahahaahaah


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Ok, well if you wanna get technical,* for current models,* tru's top of the line are the Billets. The copper's are not available. You can get a billet 475 for $1250 retail.
> 
> Also, I beleive McIntosh makes a $3k+ amp. Zapco has some stuff that is $3k+. And then Arc, which basically ARC is just Zapco lite.
> 
> ...


From post #62, way way back. Just for frame of reference.


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## stereojnky (Mar 17, 2008)

You guys should really get a room or something.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

stereojnky said:


> You guys should really get a room or something.


My appologies for turning into "Captain Argument".


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

nakamichidenon said:


> Originally Posted by nakamichidenon
> Well lets see.....we were comparing.......if you want to get technical....top of the line so .....tru would be cooper series..........zapco....c2k......and ect..........so thats were my tru coment came in......Would you agree?... you say retail on a tru amp.....well we are comparing top of the line.....if you can get me a copper series for 799 retaill....i will give you an extra 100 bucks...... peace....
> 
> Ok, well if you wanna get technical, for current models, tru's top of the line are the Billets. The copper's are not available. You can get a billet 475 for $1250 retail.
> ...


So let me explain....if you have a used tru copper... and used mac or zapco...you are going to pay more for the tru.... Point here is little man that you dont even know your own ****... sug retail on those amps... was in 5k call you buddy John on his CELL...HAHAH.....

stereojnky Re: Amp selection : Mcintosh, TRU, ZAPCO, ARC

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You guys should really get a room or something. 

You are more than free to get us one/.....

Side busting must be a common trait around here...But no worries... as you can see here at the bottoms is my first post and here it is again....
















nakamichidenon said:


> Who has actually owned all of these amps and can actually make a statement..or have an unbiased opinion?... Well I own all these brands and got rid of the mcintosh long ago... I believe that mcintosh is good but highly overated.. Tru is out of price range for most so really dont spend and have to resort to these kinds of posts....I believe you should listen for yourselfs....use that credit card and take it back and exchange for another one....hope the store has the models you want to compare,and dont take anyones word for it....Most are biased.... And we know this.... ...
> ZAPCO C2K WITH S LINK
> TRU
> ARC
> ...


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

nakamichidenon said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> So let me explain....if you have a used tru copper... and used mac or zapco...you are going to pay more for the tru.... Point here is little man that you dont even know your own ****... sug retail on those amps... was in 5k call you buddy John on his CELL...HAHAH.....
> 
> ...



Ok, I don't know my own ****. lol, whatever you say man. You need to go look up some pricing sheets from 4 years ago and get your facts straight. McIntosh and Zapco both made more expensive amps than TRU. Anyway, Big man, even if you *were* correct, when you are talking multiple thousands of dollars for an amplifier, I don't think $1,000 is going to make or break anyone. Have a good one though, one day you'll figure it all out.


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

Tru made their class A that retailed at around $5k, but I don't know if you'd ever find one for sale.


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Ok, I don't know my own ****. lol, whatever you say man. You need to go look up some pricing sheets from 4 years ago and get your facts straight. McIntosh and Zapco both made more expensive amps than TRU. Anyway, Big man, even if you *were* correct, when you are talking multiple thousands of dollars for an amplifier, I don't think $1,000 is going to make or break anyone. Have a good one though, one day you'll figure it all out.



Again what you think and what is fact are 2 diffrent things... 
I don't think $1,000 is going to make or break anyone.[/ THATS WHY THE ZAPCO AND TRUS ARE JUST BEING BOUGHT UP ON THIS FORUM AND OTHERS HUH... OR YOUR NICE COLLECTORS PPI AMPS ARE SOLD LIKE HOTCAKES RIGHT?.........RIGHT.....THATS WHY YOU BUMP FOR OFFERS....DESPERATE TO SELL.....AGAIN LOOK AT MY STUFF NOT ONCE HAVE I BUMPED.....<<<<<<<NOT DESPERATE.....AND AGAIN I GUESS WHAT YOU SAID IS TRUE HUH...


I don't think $1,000 is going to make or break anyone.[/

HAHAHAHAH GOOD DAY...


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

nakamichidenon said:


> Again what you think and what is fact are 2 diffrent things...
> I don't think $1,000 is going to make or break anyone.[/ THATS WHY THE ZAPCO AND TRUS ARE JUST BEING BOUGHT UP ON THIS FORUM AND OTHERS HUH... OR YOUR NICE COLLECTORS PPI AMPS ARE SOLD LIKE HOTCAKES RIGHT?.........RIGHT.....THATS WHY YOU BUMP FOR OFFERS....DESPERATE TO SELL.....AGAIN LOOK AT MY STUFF NOT ONCE HAVE I BUMPED.....<<<<<<<NOT DESPERATE.....AND AGAIN I GUESS WHAT YOU SAID IS TRUE HUH...
> 
> 
> ...



Funny, I actually posted links to my facts. I don't see any links from you proving otherwise, just a lot of hot air. 

I don't think anything other than the cheapest amps are selling anywhere right now. People tend to stall and think a little more on anything over $100. Is your stuff selling like hotcakes? I had a thread with around 20 pieces in it, and i'm down to 4-5. Probably post more soon. 

Desperate? No, I wouldn't say that. Do I want them to be seen, yes, sure, just like everyone on the forum. I haven't bumped the thread in a while though, and i've still sold a bunch of other equipment from it. 

I don't see the relevance in any of what you said, you are all over the map with your statements. What i'm selling has nothing to do with anything we're talking about. Form coherent thoughts, come up with some valid points, and then post. That's what rational, coherent, thinking adults do.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

I'm going to have to make a judgement call,here. I believe the idea that WRX would claim the nonexistence of an existing lineup would actuakky make him retarded. I know him to not be retarded. Somebody, and I'm not saying who, must be retarded. It's just the way of things. I'm always curious about old accounts that spring to life after people are weeded out


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

aworldcollision said:


> I'm going to have to make a judgement call,here. I believe the idea that WRX would claim the nonexistence of an existing lineup would actuakky make him retarded. I know him to not be retarded. Somebody, and I'm not saying who, must be retarded. It's just the way of things. I'm always curious about old accounts that spring to life after people are weeded out


Yeah, it's pretty obvious that I didn't claim they never made A copper series, just that the current ones aren't out yet, but he'll beat that dead horse some more I'm sure.


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## rhinodog00 (Jul 1, 2007)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pissing+match


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## nakamichidenon (Nov 5, 2007)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Copper series is the most expensive what? Vapor ware? It doesn't exist yet. John Yi has said that the coppers are taking a back burner to the steels and billets. So, currently, Billet's are the top TRU amps. I would say I could afford to buy a copper, if they existed in the current line. However, being that pricing is TBA, I don't know how you can say they are "out of price range for most". Especially being that Zapco and McIntosh make $4,000+ amps. Did you forget that you specified "most expensive of these brands". Zapco makes a $9,000 amp!?!??
> 
> Off Topic: Why do you write like a 4 year old? "......" is not substitutable for a comma, at least not without making everything you write painful to read. Can you try using sentences, instead of fragments of thoughts followed by a series of dots? I know one other person on this forum that type's like that, and I have a feeling you are both one and the same. (I think I even met you) This makes you a tool in my book.
> 
> ...



Again i mention copper series you said it does not exist....that is your quote up there....now i was talking the model that was made which is not produced anymore....you said again it does not exist but you talked out of bound right there because if you didnt understand i was talking about something made then you should have not even flapped your gums....so again.. llyou --===flapping gums.....now if you understood the thread it says older if you think its superior..... then obiously im talking about a tru amp that was made.....DO YOU GET IT?......NO I THINK YOU DONT AND THATS WHY NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE JUMPING IN HERE TO BACK YOU UP....BECAUSE YOU ARE FK RTRDED AND DONT GET IT.....YOU OPENED YOUR MOUTH SAYING SOMETHING DOES NOT EXIST....PERIOD....END OF STORY....AND AGAIN THIS TREAD IS ASKING ABOUT AN OPINION SO UNLESS YOU HAVE OWNED AND TESTED THIS PRODUCT WITH THE SAME SPEAKERS ECT...AND CAN MAKE AN UNBIASED DECISION.....THE S T F U.................OH AND INSTALLING PRODUCT IN A CUSTOMERS CARS AND OWNING ARE VERY DIFFRENT UNLESS YOU ARE INSTALLING ALL THESE PRODUCTS IN THE EXACT SAME CAR WITH THE EXACT SAME SPEAKERS SO AGAIN S T F U YOU HAVE NOTHING INFORMATIVE TO OFFER.....NOTHING......................TEST DRIVING A CAR AND OWNING IT 2 DIFFRENT THINGS..........INSTALLING AND OWNING 2 DIFFRENT THINGS.....

HAHAHAHA GET IT...


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

I think this has gone far enough off topic...


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