# Where exactly should "center" be located?



## EternalGraphics808 (Apr 28, 2009)

From the drivers perspective.... Should "center" be directly in front staring straight ahead? Or should it literally be located center of the dash?

Reason I'm asking is I was playing around with the alpine h650 unit and time delay. I was able to get it once where it seemed all center vocals were actually coming from a virtual middle pretty darn center of the windshield. Problem was left channel seemed to be so far distant left it was unnatural to me. Playing sound more I was able to get center moved more in front of me. But now right seems way too right. 

Slightly off topic....
Anyone else play around with time delay on the 650? The manual states it has delay for all 7 ch. But I have only been able to get 4 to adjust. Frnt l/r and rear l/r. In the beginning setup I did choose Y when it asks for 2wy setup and chose 4.5k for xo point.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

It's personal preference. I say it should be the center of the dash. That sound more natural to me and makes the stage seem wider.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

It's not personal preference. Center should be at center of the dashboard. 

You can see it if in the recording, singer is in the middle of soundstage. If you put her singing in front of you, all the rest of stage will be messed up. 

Try track 1 of Wynton Marsalis - The Magic Hour to adjust time alignment, it's a good one.

Your speakers on-axis positioning should help too


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

there really isnt much debate about where center should be placed. There is personal preference , usually for those people who have never competed and never really heard a properly set up vehicle and they usually prefer to have everything in front of them.
Properly set up vehicle has center image equidistant from the width boundaries.
so if the stage width is apillar to pillar then center is directly between the 2.
Most stages donot extend to the pillars, so center shifts as well.
If the stage is narrower on one side versus the other, the stage would shift accordingly. from the driver seat, many vehicles will have a stage an inch or 2 inside the pillar on the left side and a stage that goes slightly past the pillar on the right. Therefore, center would shift about 1 to 2" to the right.

Nowhere did I mention Depth or Sound stage relative to listening position. If you can get a system to stage consistently past the windshield out on the hood, same rules apply. Fender to fender or beyond width boundaries--center is between the boundaries.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Since many things done for competition actually sound BAD, I still maintain that it's personal preference. You can have separate settings for everything. One to appease judges, and one that sounds good.

Your definition of "properly set up" is arrogant. I know several people who have both heard and even built competition vehicles who still prefer the image centered to their body, not the car. They just retune the car to sound like ass for competitions so the judges will approve.


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## yuri (Apr 11, 2009)

hi guys , 
i prefer "center"right in front of me ,,and setup as such ,but find most male vocals shift to center of car ?? cant get both male and female to center right in front .

anyone know why this happens .(i drive a right hand drive ) 

ps , i though center for competiton purpose was right in front of you ..

rgs yuri...


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## vidizzle (May 30, 2008)

if its a personal preference i grew up in car audio 
situated around iasca rules so i had to get the perfect center at the center of the dash and i wont have it any other way..it seems more realistic on the soundstage as a whole 
imo


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## doitor (Aug 16, 2007)

Competition rules aside, "center" is not a subjetive term.
It's always equidistant to two places or to the circumference of a circe.
In other words a center is a center and it's always in the exact middle from two things, points, etc.
It not a personal preference.
There's no such thing as "my" center, "your" center or a "judges" center.
I agree with the definition that it has to be in the exact middle of the limits of the soundstage.
Otherwise, it shouldnt be called a "center".
Put any name you want, but it's not a "center".

J.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Wow, talk about anti competition BS.

Mic provided a very accurate and well thought answer (which I happen to agree with wholeheartedly). He didn't bash anyone over the head about competition. If you don't want to hear someone else's opinion don't participate in a forum open to the publc...

BTW - You are perfectly entitled to your opinion and I used to believe the same thing until I heard a properly set up competition vehicle.


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## dkh (Apr 2, 2008)

I agree with the centre being centre - not a personal opinion.

And, who's gash 'competition set' cars have you been listening to?

In that regards, I guess that is an individual opinion but, before making such assumptions I would still advise that you make sure you have heard enough variety rather than the odd so called competition car.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

He implied (and you just did too) that anyone who prefers this method has never heard a proper competition car setup (and you can add all kinds of connotations to that). That's pretty goddamn arrogant. Maybe people have heard competition vehicles and decided that wasn't the sound they like. It's not like people chose this method only because they don't know better.

I happen to agree with him too on staging, but I have heard competition vehicles where I thought the EQing sounded like ass. Very few people listen to music like that. You do it to appease judges, not because it's natural. Do people go around listening to test discs also? No, most people prefer music and artists they actually like, but you put in a test disc to win competitions. My point is that just because you win a competition with a setup, doesn't mean that's the holy grail.

I do believe in personal opinions and preferences. I stated what I liked and why. I didn't imply that anyone who disagrees with me just doesn't know good sound.


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## SUX 2BU (Oct 27, 2008)

vidizzle said:


> if its a personal preference i grew up in car audio
> situated around iasca rules so i had to get the perfect center at the center of the dash and i wont have it any other way..it seems more realistic on the soundstage as a whole
> imo


Exactly. I too grew up in car audio and IASCA. Centre for me will always be centre of dash (or just left of centre) and will always be frustrating for me to accomplish  

I think centre-of-car is losing validity the more that "1-seat" cars with dash-mounted 3-way sets, wildly varying PLDs, and heavy reliance on time alignment and processing is becoming commonplace.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Not sure how you can debate "center". By definition its in the middle. The middle of what--the middle of the soundstage. So determine where the far left is. Determine where the far right is. Find the middle. you have the center. That center can be in front of the listener, center of the dash--it all depends on the rest of the stage. You can argue how the rest of the stage is supposed to be I guess, but center is a basic definition. 
Obviously depth would change that some, but this has nothing to do with competition. It has to do with the definition of a word.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

doitor said:


> Competition rules aside, "center" is not a subjetive term.
> It's always equidistant to two places or to the circumference of a circe.
> In other words a center is a center and it's always in the exact middle from two things, points, etc.
> It not a personal preference.
> ...


Jorge, while I agree with the above concept I still hold that personal preference is a big part in this decision; here's why.

The Center, as you describe it, is an impossible task in any car other than a McLaren F1 (seat in the middle of the car). So, considering we are talking about a "virtual image" let's elaborate on what each of the two schools of thought represent.

A center dash image is one that appears to be placed in the center of the vehicle's dash. While this is the center of the car it is not centered to the listener because it sounds like the entire musical entity is off to their right and this is my qualm with that type of setup. 

When you go to a concert or a movie, do you sit on the left side of the stage or the screen? Of course not. The optimal position is in the center. When you do dedicated listening at home do you sit on the left side of your couch? No, or at least I hope not.

The idea of placing the image directly in front of the driver serves to simulate them being directly in front of the musical entity. This is why I choose this as my personal preference.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

doitor said:


> Competition rules aside, "center" is not a subjetive term.
> It's always equidistant to two places or to the circumference of a circe.
> In other words a center is a center and it's always in the exact middle from two things, points, etc.
> It not a personal preference.
> ...


You made it simple now. Agree totally.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

ItalynStylion said:


> Jorge, while I agree with the above concept I still hold that personal preference is a big part in this decision; here's why.
> 
> The Center, as you describe it, is an impossible task in any car other than a McLaren F1 (seat in the middle of the car). So, considering we are talking about a "virtual image" let's elaborate on what each of the two schools of thought represent.
> 
> ...


You are actually one of the people I was referencing among others from Brownique. I thought your car sounded good, but it just wasn't my personal preference. I know it's not because you haven't heard "properly set up cars."


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

ItalynStylion said:


> Jorge, while I agree with the above concept I still hold that personal preference is a big part in this decision; here's why.
> 
> The Center, as you describe it, is an impossible task in any car other than a McLaren F1 (seat in the middle of the car). So, considering we are talking about a "virtual image" let's elaborate on what each of the two schools of thought represent.
> 
> ...



Where is the boundry of your left stage in your set up?


When you go to a concert and the lead singer is standing in the center of the "stage" and you are lucky enough to have center stage seats. You have a left side of that stage with band members that is the same size as the right size of the stage---which means the lead singer is meeting the definition of "center"

You don't have a right stage that is 50 feet wide (from center to end of right stage) and a left stage that is 5 feet wide (from center to edge of left stage).


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

My opinion is you cannot deny your position in the car to determine the soundstage. 

If the objective is to reproduce sound as it was intented, in live music with singer in the exact center of soundstage, there is where the voice should come from, and following other instruments in their right place.

Of course the car is an awful place to reproduce music but that's the fun of it.

If you narrow the left stage to virtually put the center in front of driver's seat, you are messing with depth, stage, image, and it's the opposite direction of fidelity. 

Now, if you can have equal left and right width, height, depht and image by using center in front of left seat driver, that's new to me, and I am pretty sure that's barely impossible in a car.

And no, i don't mean to be arrogant, that's just a healthy discussion and I'm interested in reading other's thoughts on the subject


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## doitor (Aug 16, 2007)

ItalynStylion said:


> The Center, as you describe it, is an impossible task in any car other than a McLaren F1 (seat in the middle of the car). So, considering we are talking about a "virtual image" let's elaborate on what each of the two schools of thought represent.
> 
> A center dash image is one that appears to be placed in the center of the vehicle's dash. While this is the center of the car it is not centered to the listener because it sounds like the entire musical entity is off to their right and this is my qualm with that type of setup.
> 
> ...


It doesnt really matter where you sit.
We are talking about the center of the soundstage which by definition has to be in the exact middle of two references.
You might like to hear the vocal in front of you to simulate beeing in a concert, BUT the only way that is the "center" is if you are able to get your left soundstage outside the car enough to make it equidistant from where you got vocals out to the right limit of the soundstage.
Otherwise it's NOT a center.
The reference to the Mclaren is a good one. Just because YOU move, it doesnt mean that the center moves. Not unless the reference points move.
It might be easier if we put it in a different context that has nothing to do with music.
Let's say a ping pong table. 










It has a center line and it has a left and right boundry. 
If you are on the other side in the middle of the ping pong table the center is marked by the line. If you move to the far left of the table, the center is still there because you have limits on both sides as reference.
It doesnt matter where you want to move, the center line will still be the center of the table.


J.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

ItalynStylion said:


> Jorge, while I agree with the above concept I still hold that personal preference is a big part in this decision; here's why.
> 
> The Center, as you describe it, is an impossible task in any car other than a McLaren F1 (seat in the middle of the car). So, considering we are talking about a "virtual image" let's elaborate on what each of the two schools of thought represent.
> 
> ...


love your train of thought, but i have yet to hear a car where the left boundary extends far enough to put the center of the image in front of the driver. if we could actually make that happen, i would be in heaven.

until then...my center image is smack dab in the middle of the windshield.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

doitor said:


> Let's say a ping pong table. It has a center line and it has a left and right boundry. If you are on the other side in the middle of the ping pong table the center is marked by the line. If you move to the far left of the table, the center is still there because you have limits on both sides as reference.
> It doesnt matter where you want to move, the center line will still be the center of the table.


Ahh yes, but now with electronic processing, you can move the net anywhere on the table that you want. The center is always the same, but you can trick the players by electronically moving the net. What this means, however, is that one player has a much shorter service box, even though they can still play with an altered net. 

That is why I don't like centering the image to the driver. The distance between centered vocals and an instrument on the far left is very compressed, but hey, some people like that because they prefer vocals to be centered.

For the sake of argument, maybe we should call it the "perceived" or "electronic" center. I would hope that no one actually mounted the drivers in any place other than the far left and right of the vehicle.

P.S. That's a nice table, Jorge.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

doitor said:


> Let's say a ping pong table.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



pack it up and go home. this thread is done.

anything else is just purely preference.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Stage height above 7 feet from ground 

reverse stage depth out to rear of 48 foot trailer

center stage above sideview mirror extends over to 3 car lanes on rightside


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> pack it up and go home. this thread is done.
> 
> anything else is just purely preference.


Agreed. That post pretty much summed up my feelings on the subject. I dont understand how people can listen to the left side of the stage compressed to a foot or two of width. Sounds ridiculous IMO.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

The soundstage is at ankle level now . . . I want to bring it up to my waist :laugh:

It's centered on my glovebox  how am I doing :laugh:

From the drivers perspective.... Should "center" be directly in front staring straight ahead? Or should it literally be located center of the dash?

When i surf . . . I like to be on the backside of the wave !


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

Center of the car, but way out past the end of the hood


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## James Bang (Jul 25, 2007)

Spread your woman's legs. Let's say she's sitting on your hood facing you. Where her feet/ankles are is where the left and right of the stage is. What you want to do is stick it right between her legs (center focus). If you're off to the left or right, you'll probably hit her thighs, but that's okay, because rubbing the inner thighs can arouse her, but dead center is where the spot is, for her and for you.

If you're very far off to where her feet/ankles are, then you're just sucking her toes or licking her ankles, which might get her going, but it'll do nothing for you... this is all assuming one leg isn't shorter than the other.


grunched.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

James Bang said:


> Spread your woman's legs. Let's say she's sitting on your hood facing you. Where her feet/ankles are is where the left and right of the stage is. What you want to do is stick it right between her legs (center focus). If you're off to the left or right, you'll probably hit her thighs, but that's okay, because rubbing the inner thighs can arouse her, but dead center is where the spot is, for her and for you.
> 
> If you're very far off to where her feet/ankles are, then you're just sucking her toes or licking her ankles, which might get her going, but it'll do nothing for you... this is all assuming one leg isn't shorter than the other.
> 
> ...


OMG you had me rolling, if it wasn't so long I would totally sig that :laugh:


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## boltupright (Feb 14, 2007)

As I find the time, I'm working on moving the center to being almost directly in front of me. I'm going to have the left speakers facing the driver's side window, so the sound reflects off the window and come at my left ear from my left side, and am moving the right speakers a bit closer to me instead of having them at the far right of the dash....also going to see if I can put the tweeters and mids on a swivel to experiment with getting the best angle.


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## AudioBob (May 21, 2007)

For me given the limitations of the car environment the center needs to be in the center of the dash. It would be great if you could center the vocals in front of you and get a stage width that extended way out to the left of the driver.

Otherwise, if the vocals are right in front of you on a proper recording the instruments or other performers will be compressed in a very narrow sound field left of center and not have that open feeling. I think that Doitor said it best whether you compete or not the soundstage width and depth are very dependent on getting the proper imaging cues conveyed to the listeners.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Mooble said:


> Since many things done for competition actually sound BAD, I still maintain that it's personal preference. You can have separate settings for everything. One to appease judges, and one that sounds good.
> 
> Your definition of "properly set up" is arrogant. I know several people who have both heard and even built competition vehicles who still prefer the image centered to their body, not the car. They just retune the car to sound like ass for competitions so the judges will approve.


so explain sounds bad? Goal of a competition system is to reproduce the media as it was recorded. period. If it was recorded in a live setting it should have ambiance as a live venue. If its recorded in a studio, it should feel more intimate depending on how it was mixed.
What sounds REAL and what people like dont coincide many times with music. Many people like a lil more low end or a more robust midbass response or sparkle on the topend, but the recording itself has none of that.

So I stand by my statement that majority of people, who argue that staging is preferential have not heard a properly set up vehicle.

and actually what you are talking about and what the OP is asking about are 2 separate elements. the Op asked about technical aspect and you replied that competition cars sound like ass and sound BAD, which is a tonal aspect.
a Car can image really well and do everything right technically and sound tonally like ass. a car can also exhibit super tonality and stage like garbage.
Ive heard both on many occasions.
and Majority of comp cars made a compromise in one area or another, Over the yrs Ive gone back and forth between superb technical and Above average tonal to great tonal and above average technical. Very Few have gotten both to work great due to limitations of the vehicle.

and quite frankly, there are a ton of people who have never or seldom ever listen to live music or live instruments to have a clue what they SHOULD sound like. Goal of a competition system is REALISM. So it should stage as it was recorded-if the vocal was mixed to be in the center, he should be in the center, if the guitar is right center, he should be there, not on the left side of the stage b/c thats where my g/f's bands brothers guitar player played....
If theres a flute, it should sound like a real damn flute not an oboe.
end of story


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Autiophile said:


> Have any of you heard systems where the stage extended beyond the physical location of the speakers? How about the room boundaries? Heard a binaural track on headphones that made images appear to come from far beyond the cans themselves, or even behind you?
> 
> No need to respond. I know these aren't perfectly applicable to the car environment (hostile as it is) and binaural is a whole different ballgame, but it's worth pondering what is happening acoustically any time an answer to one of the above questions is "yes" and what is happening in a car that might be related.


YES. Mark Edleridges 4runner stage was way out on the hood by the headlights. Width boundaries were the fender wells.
Mickey Brones Eclipse at 02 USAC finals had width by the side mirrors. I have heard quite a few vehicles with far right stages by the side mirror, but far left was at or inside the pillar.
Also several cars have had good stages relative to listening position that extended beyond the windshield onto the hood, but none as far as Marks Truck.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> YES. Mark Edleridges 4runner stage was way out on the hood by the headlights. Width boundaries were the fender wells.
> Mickey Brones Eclipse at 02 USAC finals had width by the side mirrors. I have heard quite a few vehicles with far right stages by the side mirror, but far left was at or inside the pillar.
> Also several cars have had good stages relative to listening position that extended beyond the windshield onto the hood, but none as far as Marks Truck.


i've come to lust after depth. love the high centered image of my "electronically-band-aided" pillar rig, and i have width to the side mirrors, but i just don't get depth beyond the windshield. going to try tweaking aiming some, but i just don't think the physical distance to the drivers is ever going to get the depth. i see kicks in my distant future.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

So many of you say that the left side of the car is a boundary yet you talk all about the sound stage being places that physically, don't make any sense. EX: The stage was mid hood, wider than the mirrors, or dash high with kick panels. I'll agree that it's a hard task to accomplish but impossible? Hardly.


For years I listened to the guru's about what is "right" and what is "wrong" but recently in the past year I've begun to do what I like most. And you know what? I've started enjoying audio more than I ever thought I could! If npdang (great guy) tells me that funky pups are the tits and I think they sound like ****, who's opinion matters when we're talking about MY car? _MINE_ of course, since I'll be the one listening to it on regular basis. 

I find it ludicrous that I should tune my system to the tastes of other people. I mean think about it, how on earth could you ever successfully tune to someone else's tastes if your tastes differ? I say tune to satisfy yourself, **** everyone else. Do what sounds right.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

ItalynStylion said:


> So many of you say that the left side of the car is a boundary yet you talk all about the sound stage being places that physically, don't make any sense. EX: The stage was mid hood, wider than the mirrors, or dash high with kick panels. I'll agree that it's a hard task to accomplish but impossible? Hardly.
> 
> 
> For years I listened to the guru's about what is "right" and what is "wrong" but recently in the past year I've begun to do what I like most. And you know what? I've started enjoying audio more than I ever thought I could! If npdang (great guy) tells me that funky pups are the tits and I think they sound like ****, who's opinion matters when we're talking about MY car? _MINE_ of course, since I'll be the one listening to it on regular basis.
> ...


I just never heard a system that extends much farther than the side mirrors.

What bugs me is when you have the left most part of your stage, say at one mirror, the right at the other mirror, and the center in FRONT of me. It just sounds very unnatural to have all that instrumentation squished in a 1-2 foot space compared to the right side. I like symmetry, its called center for a reason.

Now if you can extend well beyond the left side mirror and get something near symmetrical than more power to you. I just don't see how you can live with a compressed left stage like that. 

But like you said, what you like is all that matters in the end, even if it isn't accurate to the recording


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## ibanzil (Jun 29, 2008)

Im lost on this aspect. If you shift the vocals to the center are you not bringing the left side closer to you and pushing the right farther? I can move vocals anywhere, when listening with Centered vocals (middle of windshield) an odd feeling of wanting to lean in occurs. 

I have a car setup for vocals in front of drivers seat and the other car has a center dash vocal. In the center dash...I constantly have the urge to lean in. Feels like im at a bad seat at a concert.

I understand all the arguements but am confused on how "centering" on dash doesnt screw up everything else to the left and right of where seated.


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## vageta (Oct 11, 2006)

I think the bottom line is everyone has their own preference so there truly isn't a right or wrong. However I don't see how it's possible to get the center imagine directly in front of the driver and still have the left side of your soundstage sound as far away as the right. Which basically means it's a trade-off. Having the center image in front of you means your left side of the stage will be compressed. Period. Having the center image in the center of the dash will give you more equal stage width though most still have a somewhat compressed left stage(as I do but I'm working on that with my new setup). Personally I love a wide, deep soundstage so a center image directly in front of me is not an option.

Also as far as depth goes, I've been noticing lately that the only way I seem to get any depth is to sit further away from my speakers. The further back I sit, the further forward my soundstage seems to be. The closer I am, the closer in the stage seems to be. Almost as if for every foot I move back, the soundtage moves a foot in the other direction. Up to a point of course. If I sit straight up the soundstage is right at the windshield. If I move back a bit or even lean my seats back and then sit in the backseat for testing it sounds like it's out past the windshield.

I think depth will always come down to PLD. You can time align drivers to sound like they're all coming from the same distance, however you can't defy physics because the closest speaker is STILL close to you. For instance if you are sitting at home listening to a pair of speakers and you are only a couple of feet away the depth of your stage will suffer because there isn't enough room for the sound to expand or "open up". There is no possible way to overcome this spatial relationship to the speakers other than to physically move further away from them. Adding delay does nothing. You can add 5 seconds of delay to the speakers, but because they're both delayed equally you can't tell any difference as you are still only a couple of feet from the speakers. Perhaps a delayed rear fill can help add some depth but it's because it tricks your ears.

So in short my experience is that delay only helps to equalize path distances, but you are always bound by how close the speakers are physically to you. This is why waveguides and horn speakers have such a huge advantage as far as your soundstage is concerned. Due to my deep dash my PLD from the corner of the dash to my kickpanels is very close so moving speakers down there won't help me much. I simply lean my seat back and try to put my ears as far away as I can and it makes a difference.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> so explain sounds bad? Goal of a competition system is to reproduce the media as it was recorded. period. If it was recorded in a live setting it should have ambiance as a live venue. If its recorded in a studio, it should feel more intimate depending on how it was mixed.
> What sounds REAL and what people like dont coincide many times with music. Many people like a lil more low end or a more robust midbass response or sparkle on the topend, but the recording itself has none of that.
> 
> So I stand by my statement that majority of people, who argue that staging is preferential have not heard a properly set up vehicle.
> ...


I was just ripping on competition cars because I hate the attitude that they somehow represent the holy grail of audio. That's your opinion, but it's not shared by everyone. A large number of people think they sound dull and lifeless. I know your goal is perfect reproduction, but often perfect reproduction is not sonically pleasing. 

If tonality is subjective then why the hell isn't staging? Your opinion of what constitutes good sound or staging is no more valid than any other. Like I said, there are several people whose opinions I respect who choose to center their music to their body, not the car and it's not because they are too dumb to know what "good sound" is. I disagree with them, but I'm not going to insult them and say that they are just uneducated in the world of car audio. That's their preference. Nothing more. Hell, some people prefer rear fill too. 

The OP simply asked where to "center" his stage. The fact that he used quotation marks shows that he means perceived stage through T/A, not actual driver placement. If he had said, "I want to compete in ISACA; where should my stage be," you would be dead on. That's not what he asked. He wants opinions of where to center his stage and that is a matter of preference just as much as tonality. We have discussed the downside of staging for the driver and not the car. It's his decision what to do at this point.

P.S. I seriously doubt you meant to insult people, but that's how it comes across when you suggest that only people who have not heard what you consider a good car would want staging anyplace but dead center on the dash.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Mooble said:


> but often perfect reproduction is not sonically pleasing.


Well put! With the difference in the way music is mastered tuning to a flat curve may work sometimes, but not all the time.

People strive to "reproduce the recording" but often times the recording was created with the intent that is wasn't going to be played on a flat system.

I think the proper approach would be to recreate the intended sound. However, there's absolutely no way of knowing what was intended. 

Tune so it sounds good to you and be done with it. 

This is a hobby like anything else. I build model cars, sometimes I'm building a car that matches the original perfectly, but often times the most enjoyable builds are the ones where I don't use any reference material at all. I just say '**** it' and build what I think is cool and paint it the way I want to paint it. It may not win any prizes, but the fun is in the build!


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## dkh (Apr 2, 2008)

Mooble said:


> He implied (and you just did too) that anyone who prefers this method has never heard a proper competition car setup (and you can add all kinds of connotations to that). That's pretty goddamn arrogant.


Competition cars on the whole have one thing in common, the centre is between the left and right sound barriers - in that sense I can't see any arrogance?



Mooble said:


> but I have heard competition vehicles where I thought the EQing sounded like ass. Very few people listen to music like that. You do it to appease judges, not because it's natural. Do people go around listening to test discs also? No, most people prefer music and artists they actually like, but you put in a test disc to win competitions. My point is that just because you win a competition with a setup, doesn't mean that's the holy grail.


Totally different conversation.



Mooble said:


> I do believe in personal opinions and preferences. I stated what I liked and why. I didn't imply that anyone who disagrees with me just doesn't know good sound.


I don't think there is a 'real' person on the planet that doesn't have personal opinions and preferences - variety for me is what makes the world go round - some you like some you don't.

So, going back to the OP - unless you ask "what's the personal preferences regarding staging" the answer has to be centre of the two (left & right) sound boundaries.

And, BTW FYI, I don't like the sound of most competition cars - tonally dead!


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

Autiophile said:


> Have any of you heard systems where the stage extended beyond the physical location of the speakers?


Yes, actually from mirror to mirror, and speakers in A-pillars. You need good head unit and cables, besides good positioning of the speakers.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

You don’t need to have a car with perfect audio to win a competition. Nor the best sounding car wins all competitions because that's not all that is judged. If it was, I'd go with a school bus, put a couch in the middle of it, a pair of GamuT and I'd be in the top of it.

I believe that competition cars that sound like ass are often made with the focus on other than dynamics, musicality and high-resolution. They usually have a straight line RTA, a lot of detailing, sound deadening and weak ambience.

Regarding personal taste, you can either go for technical or musicality. You can have both too, but never the top of both. There's the only way I see personal taste in the way to reproduce hi-fi music in your car.

There is no personal taste in hi-fi reproduction. If you think so, you need to go to a live acoustic jazz or classical music concert more often.

There is personal taste in music reproduction, you are allowed to put some extra db.s in your bass, have narrow instruments playing in front of you etc.

I could write more, but I'll stick mostly with what Mic10is said.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

^you obviously haven't been to (and actually was a part of ) a sound quality competition in several years. I can tell you flat out, the best sounding cars win these days. Install in all but a very few classes has been simplified to the point where it really doesn't matter any more for IASCA and USACi. MECA doesn't even look at install.

There is no RTA judging anymore in any organization (except MECA that has it as a totally separate class from SQ. It isn't part of the SQ judging at all).

I don't know a single SQ competitor that has a flat line system (if you put it on an RTA)--and I've seen a stupid number of RTA curves for competitors. I think some of you would be surprised if you saw the curve of a competition car. It often times isn't even that smooth. 

the cars that are winning (especially in MECA) right now are cars that have tremendous dynamics. If your car can't play up to a good fun volume and sound awesome doing it--you are not doing well these days. You need strong subbass, midbass that is a kick to the nuts strong and then a midrange and high that makes you want to sing along and forget that you are supposed to be judging. 

That is what people are winning with these days. It isn't that old sterile sound that is talked about on here. that hasn't been the case for a few years. 

The top 3 winners at last weekends big show all had several thousand watts of power on their system. The guy who came in second has around 15,000 watts of power, a pair of 18's in a ported enclosure, and 8" midbass and 6" midrange drivers. The truck sounds friggen amazing--and it will tear your head off. Nothing "flat" about it. 1st and 3rd place both have around 3,000 watts of real power (I think that is right), use BIG 12's (Fi car audio and Incriminator Audio subs), then high power 6 1/2's and tweeters. One has 5 1/4" midranges also. Their midbass drivers all have around 750 watts available to them. Tweeter are well over 300 watts available to them. 

Install wise, most people I know these days are using trunk liner in the trunk (no painted fiberglass or even vinyl). Interior is all done to so that it blends like the factory did it. There are a few exceptions, but that is most cars out there right now. 

Come to some bigger shows and I think you will be surprised at who is winning and how the cars look and sound.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

you are looking only at your belly button. There is more cars and competition around.

I sure want to go to US competitions, but I just moved in at the very same day SB Nationals were happening


Regarding what you said of what is "winning" in the scene... I go to the opposite direction. 30w amplifiers, the least mechanical loss possible, and true dynamics, that has nothing to do with high volume.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

These vehicles have dynamics. I do around 20 shows a year all over the country (I'll be in Oklahoma in two weeks and South Carolina in 3 for shows). 

Dynamics are everywhere these days. I mean snare drums making you blink.


For the top guys out there--the vehicles you are talking about don't exist. There is one that is kind of like that, but he also has a tune that is fun. Depends on his mood what he runs through the lanes with.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

SBN as a car audio show has basically died. I wouldn't look at it as a "big" show anymore. It is more of a local show that a few people drive in. 

The big shows are other places these days and they all have money rounds as part of them.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

I would agree that 10 years ago which was the last time I went to a show before starting to compete this season. The cars were tuned to be flat and RTA was still part of the judging.

Most not all the comp. cars I have heard this season are in line with what Andy stated above.

Remember competitors still like their car to sound a certain way so many tune for the comp. but still have their own style in it. We all hear different stuff, like different stuff ect. So not all comp. cars are going to sound the same and the person doing the tuning plays a large role.

I agree with many other's that flat cars just do not get me musically involved enough.

Also there are some top cars in some orgs. that I have sat it and just did not like the sound. For the most part now days most of the cars are fun to listen to and sound great at the same time.

I know what I have always considered center but really does that matter. You tune your system the way you like it period. If you like it that's all that matters becuase you are the one that has to listen to it every day.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

good to know that about the shows. thanks.

Now tell me, how would you rate the top 3 cars in the big shows in terms of audiophile reproduction compared to a home audio setup?


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Much more fun to listen to. hair on back of neck standing up and you feel like part of the music more.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Andy Jones said:


> Much more fun to listen to. hair on back of neck standing up and you feel like part of the music more.


Again, more proof that we should all do what sounds best to us. Straying from that would be inherently wrong.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

Andy Jones said:


> Much more fun to listen to. hair on back of neck standing up and you feel like part of the music more.


That's what I was afraid of reading.

We are talking about different things.

Ok. enough said. thanks


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

What are you talking about?

I've heard VERY high end home audio and love it. Its great stuff. I just like cars (all aspects of cars), so I prefer to listen to music in cars. I have a serious case of A.D.D. and sitting in a living room listening to music just bores me to tears. I like being in a car. That is what makes it more fun for me.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

Ok, I was asking about the difference in sond quality, not which one you enjoy most. 

That would give me a slight parameter of how good are the cars nowadays in terms of sound quality. 

Guess I'll have to go to the shows you've mentioned. no biggie.

Tks


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

the difference in SQ is hard to put into words---especially being very "general" about home audio and car audio. 

There are good home audio set ups and there are bad ones. Same deal with cars.

If you were to say compare home audio set up A (that we both had heard) to say Mark Eldridge's nascar (that we both heard)---then I think I could do that. But trying to be general and say "high end home audio" to "high end car audio" is way broad and general.


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> YES. Mark Edleridges 4runner stage was way out on the hood by the headlights. Width boundaries were the fender wells.
> Mickey Brones Eclipse at 02 USAC finals had width by the side mirrors. I have heard quite a few vehicles with far right stages by the side mirror, but far left was at or inside the pillar.
> Also several cars have had good stages relative to listening position that extended beyond the windshield onto the hood, but none as far as Marks Truck.


A little off topic but I've had the same issue with my right side sounding pretty good above the dash and at the side mirrors but my left side a little below the dash and doesn't go past the a-pillar. I seem to get a little better left stage when I T/A the right side as well as the left and still retain a center image. Anyone else have the same experience? Mids are in kickpanels as well.

Another thing, in live music there's usually speakers on the left and right side as well as center fill (if not line array systems), that's the experience I have with live audio anyway, so shouldn't the front have somewhat of a full sound throughout? There are speakers behind you at concerts as well. I'm not sure about recording music, I only have experience recording in mono for live corporate events and whatnot. You suppose you also have to find a happy medium with the type of music you listen to. Even SQ cds I have seem to sound like they were recorded sometimes perfectly for center imaging and another song comes on and it's slightly to the left or right.....Frustrating.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

Ok. I respect that.

In my opinion hi-fi home audio is a lot more developed than car audio, as far as results too. Mostly because of the environment we are dealing with. That has to do with the "center" discussion too. In home audio you dont need to use so many things in the patch of audio as in car audio. Not to mention size and space of a dedicated room.

But I'm only 8 years in the market and don't really know the best car systems in the US sounds, because I didn't listened to them yet.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

I'd like to point out something that everybody here has missed. 

When you go to a concert, the music comes from 40 different angles. The singer is never heard from the center, and the band never from behind - it's all over the 100 foot tall sound system that's set up at the arena (or 20 feet tall at a smaller venue ;P)

You're striving for an UN-Natural sound, which is that of studio recorded music - which sounds absolutely nothing like what you will hear at a live performance.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

Actually there are uncountable cds with live performances at small and closed venues, recorded for the very purpose of having it reproduced as if the listeners were right there.

Here is one I like a lot: Live is Life - Arne Domnerus/Lars Erstrand | Live is Life


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> There will always be the home audio guys who prefer 10 watt amps, full range loudspeakers, pricey cables, etc. but I think more of us are moving towards larger well designed speakers, multiple subs and lots of power.
> 
> You'll know you're getting close in home audio when the dishes are moving a couple rooms away .


<---has a 10watt T-Amp that runs full range towers 


......but there's that Shiva-X off 500watts too


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

Vigarisa said:


> Actually there are uncountable cds with live performances at small and closed venues, recorded for the very purpose of having it reproduced as if the listeners were right there.
> 
> Here is one I like a lot: Live is Life - Arne Domnerus/Lars Erstrand | Live is Life


You're still talking about something entirely unnatural and contrived. Live music, when actually performed live, does not come solely from a stage directly in front of you with perfectly nuanced and detailed sound. 

It's a glorious cacophony, and if it truly sounded like a studio it wouldn't be worth the money.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

bd5034 said:


> I'd like to point out something that everybody here has missed.
> 
> When you go to a concert, the music comes from 40 different angles. The singer is never heard from the center, and the band never from behind - it's all over the 100 foot tall sound system that's set up at the arena (or 20 feet tall at a smaller venue ;P)
> 
> You're striving for an UN-Natural sound, which is that of studio recorded music - which sounds absolutely nothing like what you will hear at a live performance.


live can also mean acoustic or unamplified. or even simple set ups not involving large arrays of speakers. but regardless the actual visual cue is where the performers are located on the stage, so sound we would associate with a particular person or instruments our brain would localize as coming from that place.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> When you go to a concert, the music comes from 40 different angles


Dude, we're not talking about that type of live performance. Rock concerts are NOT my SQ nirvanna. Several of the smaller clubs and open air forums have been able to get there. They typically aren't amplified into the tens and hundreds of kilowatts. In fact most of my favorite concerts used little or no amplification. 

Sorry Chad


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

I don't like jazz or folk music, not interested in classical, dislike almost all country, and don't like "soft" or "light" rock. 

There aren't really any genres of music I've listened to and enjoyed that involved acoustic instruments. To me, it's a flat out bore. 

I like my music to have energy, a certain electricity that makes you want to jump out of your seat.

If I can sit through the entire song without the desire to move it's probably not for me.


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## stebob (Jun 25, 2009)

I think 1 fact has come out of this. No one really knows what is supposed to really sound like what and at what volume level. 

Talk about trying to reproduce the recording perfectly. Interesting idea. You would need the exact same equipment, studio treatments and acoustical response of the studio recorded in at the same volume level. Shall we not forget we do not hear linearly, so volume is critical here. After that you will need the preference of the mixing engineer and also prefer his preference in speakers/monitors/amplifiers/microphones,ect,ect. Sooo...does that then make it "perfect"?

Ok..so live music is what we are after to try and reproduce perfectly. If it's not studio recorded, it must be live, right? Lets keep in mind for just a second that the live music you are listening to is amplified and eq'd. So, you must prefer the acoustics of the venue you are attending. You must also prefer the speaker selection the music is being reproduced through. You must also have the same preference the soundboard guy has in the sound reproduction and believe his idea of eqing is perfect, not to mention the exact listening position you are in, the microphones being used, the volume level, ect ect.

Forget not, people, everything we hear is altered in some way. Be it a 1st reflection, harmonic, ect. Be it difference in how speakers sound, difference in eq..be it live or recorded, acoustics of the listening area. With this said, HOW THE HELL do we know what is supposed to sound like what?? We don't, we only think we do. Therefore, we go off what WE PREFER. Period.

Myself, I have a high end home theater. In my listening position if the center of the stage is not right in front of me, it is not set up correctly. In the car, I PREFER the soundstage to be right in front of me. The unfortunate limitations within the vehicle do not permit this so easily. But, I believe it's been said, we would all PREFER that to be the case, but with what we have to work with in a vehicle, center of the dash is as good as it's gonna get. I don't like it, but that's how it is. Otherwise there are compromises. Ask yourself, are you willing to compromise? That answer is up to each and everyone of us to decide and no one is wrong in their PREFERENCE to audio.


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## Vigarisa (Dec 10, 2007)

stebob, did you ever tried to play a piano? just sit there and push your fingers to the notes. There you go, now you know how a piano should sound like.

Tell a friend to do that and stay 6, 8 feet from the piano. Now you know at what volume level you want to listen to it.

What goes next, doesn't matter. When I try to reach sound quality, is to get the closest as possible to that acoustic, live, not amplified sound.

Is it an utopia? Yes it is, but the fun of it is to know how far can you go.

I know that's not what the majority here is in search of. Still, we can learn something from each other.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't know too many home "audiophile" systems that have any real bass nor can they play at live realistic levels. Most of them sound pretty, but nearly all of them don't sound like real instruments. 

Andy, you talking about Steve's truck? Man, I love that thing.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Andy Jones said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> I've heard VERY high end home audio and love it. Its great stuff. I just like cars (all aspects of cars), so I prefer to listen to music in cars. I have a serious case of A.D.D. and sitting in a living room listening to music just bores me to tears. I like being in a car. That is what makes it more fun for me.


I'm the exact same way. I don't really enjoy listening to music in the house that much, that's why having an old Harman Kardon AVR20 II and an old pair of Cerwin Vega VS120's is good enough. It gets pretty loud and sounds ok. That's all I really want out of a home setup.


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## stebob (Jun 25, 2009)

Vigarisa said:


> stebob, did you ever tried to play a piano? just sit there and push your fingers to the notes. There you go, now you know how a piano should sound like.
> 
> Tell a friend to do that and stay 6, 8 feet from the piano. Now you know at what volume level you want to listen to it.
> 
> ...


That same piano will sound different in different rooms, too. Any acoustic intrument will sound different in different rooms. So are you going for a completely dead Anechoic environment, or a lively more reflective environment? Again..preference. Also, pianos may or may not have the same distortion levels the particular electric guitar is set to for whatever piece of music you happening to be listening to.


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## stebob (Jun 25, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> I don't know too many home "audiophile" systems that have any real bass nor can they play at live realistic levels. Most of them sound pretty, but nearly all of them don't sound like real instruments.
> 
> Andy, you talking about Steve's truck? Man, I love that thing.


I don't know of too many car audio systems that is flat down to 13hz. My home audio system is. It's also capable of playing 123dB with no detectable distortion or amplifier clipping.

You may not know of them, but they are out there.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I know they are out there...and the ones I like are high efficiency setups with horns. But the HE horn/SET amp crowd isn't quite mainstream "highend audiophile" by any commercial standards.

But I could name a few cars that could get down way down with infrasonic frequencies.


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## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

You'd be surprised at some of the crappy RTA scores in the old days. I remember the Speaker Works GN scoring something like a 12 or 15 at one show. A lot of the old cars were dynamic. In the last 80's your car had to be LOUD. The GN and Harry's Acura were both dynamic, not laid back at all, but sounded fantastic and mostly got 30+ out of 40. I was standing in line at the Philly Regionals in 90 or 91?? and RC hit 130 about 2 seconds into Lil' Daddy. Granted most average competition cars that were trying to get good RTA scores were not dynamic, but they were musical. Big mids will help get you there.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Winslow--I was talking about Steve's truck. It is 100% better than last year. It is awesome right now.


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

beerdrnkr said:


> A little off topic but I've had the same issue with my right side sounding pretty good above the dash and at the side mirrors but my left side a little below the dash and doesn't go past the a-pillar. I seem to get a little better left stage when I T/A the right side as well as the left and still retain a center image. Anyone else have the same experience? Mids are in kickpanels as well.
> 
> Another thing, in live music there's usually speakers on the left and right side as well as center fill (if not line array systems), that's the experience I have with live audio anyway, so shouldn't the front have somewhat of a full sound throughout? There are speakers behind you at concerts as well. I'm not sure about recording music, I only have experience recording in mono for live corporate events and whatnot. You suppose you also have to find a happy medium with the type of music you listen to. Even SQ cds I have seem to sound like they were recorded sometimes perfectly for center imaging and another song comes on and it's slightly to the left or right.....Frustrating.





bd5034 said:


> I'd like to point out something that everybody here has missed.
> 
> When you go to a concert, the music comes from 40 different angles. The singer is never heard from the center, and the band never from behind - it's all over the 100 foot tall sound system that's set up at the arena (or 20 feet tall at a smaller venue ;P)
> 
> You're striving for an UN-Natural sound, which is that of studio recorded music - which sounds absolutely nothing like what you will hear at a live performance.


Sometimes I feel as if I'm invisible around here...lol


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Good god...it was pretty freaking nice last year at ESN. One of my personal favorite cars there.

You guys making it up this year? I want to hear your ride in a bad way...heard it was pretty nuts too.



Andy Jones said:


> Winslow--I was talking about Steve's truck. It is 100% better than last year. It is awesome right now.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

SSSnake said:


> In fact most of my favorite concerts used little or no amplification.
> 
> Sorry Chad


Hey, problem man, I feel the same way, I just make my living making it louder


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Good god...it was pretty freaking nice last year at ESN. One of my personal favorite cars there.
> 
> You guys making it up this year? I want to hear your ride in a bad way...heard it was pretty nuts too.


That I know of, Me, Robert, Steve and Scott Patterson are all coming. I have a friend that is an Amateur that is coming. His truck is good. and another friend with a civic that came in 13th in Tulsa is coming. So there should be 6 or 7 people I'll be with, plus the Schil guys that make it. 

Steve's truck has come a long way. he rebuilds it once a week. so no telling what it will look like by the time we get there but it will be awesome.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I tell you, I have a lot of respect for Steve...world record/champion SPL guy now doing SQ in a BIG way. Plus one helluva nice guy. The sport needs more people like him.

I'll see you in a few weeks.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

ItalynStylion said:


> The Center, as you describe it, is an impossible task in any car other than a McLaren F1 (seat in the middle of the car).


It isn't impossible. My car does it and so do many others.


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## SUX 2BU (Oct 27, 2008)

Anywhere a person can get pics of Steve's truck or one of it's SQ incarnations?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Steve's SPL van breaking a windshield:
YouTube - 08 Steve Cook breaking windshield

His truck... which has changed quite a few times. Pictures are from last year.
http://blog.sounddomain.com/gadget/2008/06/wrap-up-audio-x.html


He built my kicks. I have pics of that in my build log... somewhere.

He's done a lot of really good work on some SQ guys' cars around here.

Great guy.
Easily one of the best cars I've heard. That truck is ridiculous. I didn't do real critical listening, but I would say that I'd love to be the owner of that and get to drive it everyday. Just ridiculous all around.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

wow - that's not the truck i was thinking of. i was thinking of the truck w/ the granite kick baffles and dash tweeters w/ intended early reflections.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

matt robert's truck is the one you're thinking of.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/29688-matt-rs-chevrolet-truck.html


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## doitor (Aug 16, 2007)

benny z said:


> wow - that's not the truck i was thinking of. i was thinking of the truck w/ the granite kick baffles and dash tweeters w/ intended early reflections.


ERIN YOU NINJA POSTER.
That's Matt Roberts (MattR) truck.
I think he still has the granite baffles for the midbass drivers, but he changed the rest of the front stage.

J.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Steve has an all Morel front stage now. Or did, and I think went back to it.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

gotcha...


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

doitor said:


> ...the rest of the front stage.


come on...you know better than that...

"there is only one stage!!!"


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## doitor (Aug 16, 2007)

benny z said:


> come on...you know better than that...
> 
> "there is only one stage!!!"


lol

J.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Ahem,

For PROPER imaging (ie, playing back the way it was recorded), then the "center" image should be the same place it would be if you put on a pair of headphones, PERIOD. Anything other than that is just a bastardized image.

In my car, I may not have time alignment but I can hear the vocals just slightly right of center and the diffuse ambient sound seems like it is ALL AROUND ME, just as if I had rear speakers playing. This is why I don't miss my rear fill that I used to have. I have a very ambient sound field when certain recorded sounds are playing. With the MS-8 processor, I expect to have a VERY 'real' sounding stage with center vocals. How? Because the sound is going to be sampled and adjusted with stereo head-mounted microphones.  YEAH! If my imaging is this good now, I can't wait for the MS-8 to get a hold of it.

For a comparison, this is how my speakers are aimed/angled based on my own personal listening tests:









Then to my surprise check this out. Not bad. 









This is a wave guide example BUT, remember that my speakers are all set in an arrangement and the dash itself is just a giant waveguide. This example should actually be an 'estimate' of my results. If you look at the illustrated person on the inner-left side (or even outter left side), that's a good approximation of a seated position in a car and the results show a rather close R/L volume balance. This is by no means a 'perfect' example but it should be in the ballpark. With an advanced digital processor like the MS-8, my system should get fantastic results IMO.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> For PROPER imaging (ie, playing back the way it was recorded), then the "center" image should be the same place it would be if you put on a pair of headphones, PERIOD. Anything other than that is just a bastardized image.


...so it should sound like it's coming from inside my head?

never been a fan of the way headphones stage...! :worried:


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

benny z said:


> ...so it should sound like it's coming from inside my head?
> 
> never been a fan of the way headphones stage...! :worried:


Try a binaural recording sometime. Unfortunately, to a degree, you have a point in that a room will give it's own 'flavor' to what an stereo image sounds like. In a car, the 'room' isn't the problem, it's the listener's position in relation to the speakers and their dispersion. Set the speakers to the correct angle and you will fix half the imaging problem. Use time alignment and you could fix it pretty much the rest of the way. It will still NEVER be as good as headphones or as good as a center seat at home. But you can trick your ears the best way you can and get pretty close.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

If your aim were headphone sound, you would want the vocals to be centered to your head and not the car. The problem with that is that it compresses the sound on the left side.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Mooble said:


> If your aim were headphone sound, you would want the vocals to be centered to your head and not the car. The problem with that is that it compresses the sound on the left side.


Not according to that waveguide measurement and my own listening tests. Before I had these kicks made, the fabricator (Jose  ) and I sat and tested both seated front positions and also the rear seat positions. We kept angling and re-angling for a couple of hours until the ideal position was found. I can't believe those guys put up with me, were so patient and worked with me to create this install MY WAY and making this work out so well. I had pictures in my phone from the month and a half job that was done. However, sadly, I dropped the phone while out drinking at a hotel bar and the flip phone broke in half. I was not able to recover the pictures. 

The sound from my driver's seat is pretty damn amazing and I had to set my front seats to the perfect position and recline them back slightly (the speakers are angled upward while the seats are reclined, this raises the sound of the image just as if the speakers were mounted higher). The best spot? Rear middle seat. Sounds INCREDIBLE! The angled drivers tilt upward and inward. The middle back seat is hit perfectly. The driver's seat is like I described. Center slightly to the right but VERY close and the aural 'surround' type sounds are just like I have rear fill still (like wearing headphones even). The sound in my car is enveloping. You know what my head unit's 'balance' is set at? Zero. Dead center. No +/- in either speaker, yet it sounds virtually centered (from multiple seats), just from properly angling the drivers. The rear left and right seats are even pretty decent due to the shape of the headrest filtering the sound from the front.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

bump


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

Oliver said:


> bump




LOL! bump. 

hm. well my two cents for today: I installed a MS-8 today and I like the virtual center it created. It is the first time I have experienced a "proper" center in my vehicle.


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

Several theories

'Equally in between left and right stage' (center placement will depend on where left and right is.

'Directly in front of you.' Center will be closer to left stage then right.

'Lined up with an imginary line going straight up from the hood ornament' The longer your hood the more left your center.

"center of the car.' Novel idea. Most people pick it up as too far right because it is actually a little right of the drivers line of normal sight.

It is commonly acceptable to have the center from in front of you to the actual center of the car. Get it a couple inches right of center and the world ends. (inside joke)

Make sure you know the recording. Most will not be exactly where you want you true 'center' to be.


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> 'Equally in between left and right stage' (center placement will depend on where left and right is.
> 
> Get it a couple inches right of center and the world ends. (inside joke)


Don't you mean "rear" of center:sweatdrop:


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

The European Mobile Media Association (the organisation that does SQ competitions in Europe) says in their handbook: The center should be located in the middle between both ends of the stage.

This means the center position depends on where the ends of your stage are. If your stage is outside/inside the car on the left side the same distance as on the right side, the center should be in the middle of the car, but if your entire stage is shifted to the left, you can have the center right in front of you.

Isabelle


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

Candisa said:


> The European Mobile Media Association (the organisation that does SQ competitions in Europe) says in their handbook: The center should be located in the middle between both ends of the stage.
> 
> This means the center position depends on where the ends of your stage are. If your stage is outside/inside the car on the left side the same distance as on the right side, the center should be in the middle of the car, but if your entire stage is shifted to the left, you can have the center right in front of you.
> 
> Isabelle


oooh I like that definition, very clear


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## ryyo (Jun 29, 2009)

Just my personal preference of course, but the only way I would be happy with vocals not being directly in front of me is if they were just slightly right but way out past the windshield. But we all know how difficult this can be to achieve. I really don't see how others can enjoy vocals from the center of the dash with depth not extending beyond the windshield, but they probably wonder how I can be happy with a slightly compressed left stage.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Candisa said:


> The center should be located in the middle between both ends of the stage.



/thread


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And that is relative to listening position too.

A stage that starts further out will appear to have the center moved some to the driver's side of the car.

A stage that starts at the dash would be in the physical center of the car (adjusted to stage width).

Listening position should not be confused with depth as the two are not the same.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Off Course!

At EMMA games, you also get points for that. I thought the maximum amount of points were handed out when the front of the stage is about half-way the hood (or at similar distance in cars with an extremely deep dashboard or extremely short front-end).
They also give points on the depth of the actual stage since it would not be realistic for the drums to be on the same spot as the singer, but also if the drums would be too far away from the singer...

The most important is you can create a stage that is at a reasonable distance and height from the listener, with a reasonable depth and width, and the center is in the center of that stage, no matter where that stage is.

Isabelle


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

I like the image to be down near the door, with an ample amount of R to L bias. Makes for a great stage. /sarcasm


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

i thought the center's job was to hike the dang ball..

ok so how about some time delay help in setting up a truck with Kenwoods goofs aZZ system?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Every owner's manual I've had for a headunit has the same basic formula for time alignment. The guys who build these things are engineers not just enthusiasts. A quick check reveals that proper time alignment places every speaker in the car at an equal distance. That can only mean ONE thing:
The center of the stage after time alignment is meant to be directly in front of the listener. 

In the confused world of car audio, there is this belief that the center of sound stage should be the center of the dash. This is of course false. You can do this as a preference but you can't claim this has any sort of scientific backing. 

If Muse is having a concert 1 mile away from your house, where would you rather be?

1. At the concert, smack dab in the middle of the soundstage?
2. At home, a mile away from the 'TRUE' center? 

Now imagine you are playing a Muse song in your car. Without time alignment the center of the soundstage IS the center of the dash. However, if you spent money on time alignment and would like to get the benefits you time align by the book. This will move the center of the soundstage in front of you. That is what time alignment does. If you wish it to be center of the dash then don't use time alignment, you forgo the benefit of that feature you paid money for. 

I know we time align speakers on the same side(tweeter, mid, bass), but for the purposes of the argument we can focus on a full range speaker setup 


In fact, there is a good chance that most of you time align by the book yet you think you are tuning for center of the dash. You are not, you are tuning for steering wheel center.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

no sheot sherlock..i sit in the center of my truck whilst driving down the road i can operate the gas clutch and brake with my left foot! soundstage and image like a mofo that way!!!! ok so how do you deal with kenwoods screwy menu's and the owners manual makes no sense in steering up a 3way way door mounted system..what is this feet crap? do i delay the right by adding feet ? i cant subtract feet from the left? So far ear tuning and adjusting has gotten the soundstage in front of me but man the #'s are way out of whack!


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Try the Eclipse illustration:

CD7200 mkII OWNER'S MANUAL - ECLIPSE by Fujitsu Ten

Note how Eclipse has the driver as the reference. This method, like all the other found in owner manuals, give you center in front of the driver, steering wheel if you may.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

dude u need to check out the screwy way kenwood does their manuals..
I'm not sure their processor works this way! http://manual.kenwood.com/files/4be49a3036957.pdf


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

Seems to be personal choice so far. No clear answer. As it always has been.

CV- You move a naturally centered center left with TA?

To each their own.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

man I found it.. get stereopjhile test cd 3 with the dude walking around the stage clapping.. with the stage set to the center of vehicle when he is directly in front of you( in recording) the stage in the car is incorrect.. he appears to be to my right center of dash.. this is wrong compared to my home system.. set the TA to shift stage in fornt of me and the image of him walking around the stage is correct... and when he is centered at mic he appears in front of me..TRY IT>> man I'm glad I dug out that old cd.. great stuff along with Chesky demo disk for seeing how sucky your car really is.. now I got to go fix mo stuff! make your system reproduce that sound stage (centered on you) and you got it!!!! my bad he has a cowbell.. I;m stting my stage up so when the dude is in front of the mike he is in front of ME! this is the way the recording was made!


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## cheesehead (Mar 20, 2007)

tnbubba said:


> man I found it.. get stereopjhile test cd 3 with the dude walking around the stage clapping.. with the stage set to the center of vehicle when he is directly in front of you( in recording) the stage in the car is incorrect.. he appears to be to my right center of dash.. this is wrong compared to my home system.. set the TA to shift stage in fornt of me and the image of him walking around the stage is correct... and when he is centered at mic he appears in front of me..TRY IT>> man I'm glad I dug out that old cd.. great stuff along with Chesky demo disk for seeing how sucky your car really is.. now I got to go fix mo stuff! make your system reproduce that sound stage (centered on you) and you got it!!!! my bad he has a cowbell.. I;m stting my stage up so when the dude is in front of the mike he is in front of ME! this is the way the recording was made!


Would you be so kind to save the test cd to a file and share with those of us who do not have access to the disc?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I see gray in nearly every case. However, this is one case I do not. It is clear cut: center *by definition* is the center of the soundstage. You furthest left and right cues create the outer boundary and your center should be in the middle of those two points. Period. 

Now, where that falls in your car will more than likely be defined by where you have your drivers mounted. 
For those whose center is in front of you I can only draw two conclusions:
1) your drivers are mounted asymmetrically in the car (ie: you have the right side driver in the center of the car and the left side driver at the far pillar/door)
Or
2) your stage is squished on one side (whichever side your steering wheel is on) and thus is not where you should be placing your center, technically (and by definition). No matter where the pink noise is. Now, if you want to place your center here, then go for it. But you most likely do so at the expense of a well balanced stage. 

Most likely it's number two. 
Think of it like this
How many times have you heard a stereo that truly played significantly wider (I'm not talking psychoacoustics) than where the drivers were _physically_ mounted. Probably never. So, how can it be that the center image is dead in front of you while maintaining a symmetrical stage?
Think of those cars that you listened to with drivers located in the doors/pillars. When the 'center' was in front of you, directly, how did the stage balance lay out? Was the left side just as wide as the right? No. Why? Because unless you have an unorthodox install, the stage was no wider than the location of the drivers, therefore that center was not the true acoustic center.


To recap, essentially what I'm saying is: your center is pretty much defined by the middle point of your left and right drivers' placement. Sure, it may vary an inch or two here or there, but you can pretty much bank on your width being set by physical driver locations (think: voice coil) and thus center being in between the two bounds, physically and acoustically.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

tnbubba said:


> dude u need to check out the screwy way kenwood does their manuals..
> I'm not sure their processor works this way! http://manual.kenwood.com/files/4be49a3036957.pdf


Ohh, I see what you are saying. That may be a combination of things, they tried to make it easier on the installer by giving pre-canned settings, and maybe marketing to left hand drive and right hand drive countries without changing the manual. I agree, it can be confusing, way to complicated. 



AcuraTLSQ said:


> Seems to be personal choice so far. No clear answer. As it always has been.
> 
> CV- You move a naturally centered center left with TA?
> 
> To each their own.


There is a technically correct way to do things. TA is included in heads to manipulate the soundstage. If your purpose is to leave the car acoustics untouched why buy TA, EQ? 

With full range speakers and no time alignment the soundstage is middle of the dash. That is however not technically correct. Unless you are driving a McLaren F1 you are sitting to the left (in US) or right (in UK) of the soundstage. That is when TA comes in:
1. it aligns tweeter with mid with midbass to make sure all speakers on each side is equal in distance.
2. it centers the soundstage in reference to the listener. 

You may call it a 'preference' to leave the soundstage centered upon the dash, aka don't do step 2 above. It is a 'preference' but it's also technical incorrect. That's like having a 6 speed gearbox and always shifting from 1 to 6. You can call that a preference but it's not technically correct to drive the car as such. 

So yeah, I move the center to the left because that's where I'm at and I'm the LISTENER, I'm the focus, it's for me. The only reason why you should leave the center in the middle of the dash is if you drive sitting on your center armrest.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

i have the file as wave file.. i an convert to mp3 or aac too..
uh how do i do it on here?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> I see gray in nearly every case. However, this is one case I do not. It is clear cut: center *by definition* is the center of the soundstage. You furthest left and right cues create the outer boundary and your center should be in the middle of those two points. Period.


I disagree. Here's why. Time alignment allows you to delay a speaker signal. It manipulates the time arrival to trick your ear into thinking that the left speakers are indeed as far as the ones on the right. That is precisely why we use it! It may not be perfect but that is the idea behind it. 

Width of stage is a different problem altogether. Without proper physical azimuth angle you can argue that yes, we are stuck with the physical limitations of the car. That's not going to stop you from bringing that center where it should be, in front of you. It may however limit the stage width to: 2x(distance to farthest driver). 

Proper TA at the listener position tries to do this:
Move speakers on left far enough to be equidistant to the listener compared to the ones on the right. Think of it as simulating an extension of your car to the left. However, it cannot move the right speakers farther. You can only do that with a proper stereo effect, 5.1, or rear delay etc.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

this whole topic is really dumb and I see no reason for debate.

determine the stage width boundaries.

equidistant between the 2 is the center.

end of story.


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> I disagree. Here's why. Time alignment allows you to delay a speaker signal. It manipulates the time arrival to trick your ear into thinking that the left speakers are indeed as far as the ones on the right. That is precisely why we use it! It may not be perfect but that is the idea behind it.
> 
> Width of stage is a different problem altogether. Without proper physical azimuth angle you can argue that yes, we are stuck with the physical limitations of the car. That's not going to stop you from bringing that center where it should be, in front of you. It may however limit the stage width to: 2x(distance to farthest driver).
> 
> ...



Unless you can move your left channel the same amount to the left you moved your center the stage you prefer is not optional by any means.


L___________________C____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ R


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I don't believe the debate is "what is center". That is no doubt equally distant between left and right. We shouldn't waste this thread arguing this simple fact. 

The greater question is where do you want the center to be? We don't get to choose where we sit as the driver, but I know if I had a choice it would be in the middle. Well, I don't have a choice, I HAVE to sit on the left. Second best option is to simulate the driver position in the center. Therefore I use TA to bring the center in front of me. 

Just because without any tricks the center of the soundstage is in the center of the dash it does not make it ideal. Why do you guys EQ, TA, level match etc? If you think the car arrangement is ideal for listening as it comes then why mess with it? Do you think recording studios are shaped like a car's interior?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> Unless you can move your left channel the same amount to the left you moved your center the stage you prefer is not optional by any means.
> 
> 
> L___________________C____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ R


I use TA to move the left speakers as far away from me as the ones on the right. The center is then in front of me. Center is half way between left and right is it not? Then if I can 'move' the speakers on the left farther the center moves too. Your depiction is inaccurate because center 'C' is not half way.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

if you goto a concert.
Its very apparent to see how wide the stage is
if you sit left of center and watch the performance. center, which is usually the lead singer and drums behind is in the center of the stage and to the right of you.

that is the goal in car audio for majority of people, especially those that compete.

so lefts make a distinct separation between what is "correct" and what is preference.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Ok let's do it!

We want to reproduce the concert in our cars. Agree?

We want to be in the center at a concert. Agree?

Therefore, we want to be reproducing the experience of a concert goer who sits in the middle at the concert. Agree?

If we played back the center recording in a car with a center seat we would get center reproduced accurately. Agree?

Now we don't have a car with center seat, the recording will not be reproduced accurately, in that we will simulate a left of center listening session. Agree?

So, if TA exists and it can fix the problem above with left of center seating then why not use it? 

Are you trying to say it is ideal to be off center when you go to the concert? Why?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> Ok let's do it!
> 
> We want to reproduce the concert in our cars. Agree?
> 
> ...


by putting the center in front of you , you have disproportioned stage width.
it would be very much like the picture Kirk made.

Left--center----------------Right

there is no balance.

youve basically hacked off the left side of the stage and put the right side off behind the side curtains...which quite frankly is not a performance I would enjoy


as a current example, chefhow and I, went to the International Guitar Festival on Saturday. we had "good tickets" 4th row back but we were on the far right of the stage. one or 2 seats from the end.
very small venue tho, maybe 200 seats at the most.
everything during the 1st half of the performance sounded right in front of us. we had to stare at the performers to know who was playing which part of a piece to know what was going on--very bizzare experience.

during intermission, we asked an usher if any of the seats in the back were open.
they were, so we moved to the back and sat much more toward the middle.
I was actually slightly left of true center and he was next to me on the right.

it was a totally different concert once we could actually see and hear the entire stage. placement on sounds improved dramatically.


end point--without extensive modifications, you cant change the seating position in a vehicle.
you bought your ticket for left of center, youre stuck with them.
The best you can do now is to as accurately as possible, place the performers on the stage in their correct stage placement bc thats where they belong and for the most part they donot move bc you do.


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> I use TA to move the left speakers as far away from me as the ones on the right. The center is then in front of me. Center is half way between left and right is it not? Then if I can 'move' the speakers on the left farther the center moves too. Your depiction is inaccurate because center 'C' is not half way.


Not trying to argue but no.

You said you take the center:

L______________________________C______________________________R

And move it in front of you:

L_______________C_____________________________________________R

(Counted the spaces this time)

Is that not what it is? Left doesn't move more left when you delay this way. It moves the center left. All it does. (talking left, center, right only)

You are sitting left center (typically) so if you move the center in front of you, it is left center.

I understand why you want it they way you do. But it is what it is.......


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## audiguy (Jul 30, 2007)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> Seems to be personal choice so far. No clear answer. As it always has been.
> 
> CV- You move a naturally centered center left with TA?
> 
> To each their own.


What Kirk means to say is that the center should be slightly to the right of the glove box.


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## cheesehead (Mar 20, 2007)

tnbubba said:


> i have the file as wave file.. i an convert to mp3 or aac too..
> uh how do i do it on here?


I am not sure. Hopefully someone with the knowledge will chime in to help. Thanks!


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

lets simplify this even more.
competition was originally judged from both seats.

where is center between the driver and passenger


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

The example you typed up only highlights one point, you want to be in the center. However, you didn't prove that there is nothing you can do about a left of center seating. 

TA has the ability to delay sound. Sound can be delayed by physically moving the speaker away or by electronically delaying the signal (TA). In either situation the arrival of the sound to the ear will change. 

Therefore if one of the two speakers moves the center will change as well. You can't move one speaker farther without affecting the center or vice versa. 

Here is the formal graph:

Before TA:

............L ___________C___________R
......................ME

After TA:
L____________C___________R
......................ME

Both times the C is in the center like it should be. We decided that if there is anything easy about this discussion is that the center should be halfway between L and R. In both cases the overall stage width is the same (as it should be), the driver is in the same position (as he should be), and the center is in the center (halfway between L and R). The physical location of the speakers is in both cases like in the before TA case, but what we hear changes (unless you don't believe TA can delay sound).


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I can use no TA and have center in front of me


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I've heard cars with kick mounted mids and dash mounted mids that staged past the physical boundaries of the car.

Randy Kunin's white Accord would stage out to the side view mirrors. Chefhow's car on my disk at ESN was constantly physically wider than the boundaries of the car. My car stages past the pillars. All of those cars had very symmetrical stages. Anyone who heard Andy's old Mini with the precursor of the MS-8 would tell you his car was smaller than the sound stage. Steve Head's last incarnation of his Civic would stage past the physical boundaries of the car...hell, I judged it at ESN from the passenger's seat with someone (Brett Nelker) sitting in the driver's seat).

All of these cars were either "true" stereo or a multichannel setup. The multichannel setups have had both door, pillar, and dash mounted midranges and either door or kickpanel mounted midbasses. All had center channels. The true stereo cars were all kickpanel mounted cars.

To some extent you are right about physical boundaries limited width, but that isn't the whole story or a complete truth. And you can't make a dogmatic statement like that.



bikinpunk said:


> How many times have you heard a stereo that truly played significantly wider (I'm not talking psychoacoustics) than where the drivers were _physically_ mounted. Probably never. So, how can it be that the center image is dead in front of you while maintaining a symmetrical stage?
> Think of those cars that you listened to with drivers located in the doors/pillars. When the 'center' was in front of you, directly, how did the stage balance lay out? Was the left side just as wide as the right? No. Why? Because unless you have an unorthodox install, the stage was no wider than the location of the drivers, therefore that center was not the true acoustic center.
> 
> 
> To recap, essentially what I'm saying is: your center is pretty much defined by the middle point of your left and right drivers' placement. Sure, it may vary an inch or two here or there, but you can pretty much bank on your width being set by physical driver locations (think: voice coil) and thus center being in between the two bounds, physically and acoustically.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

............................door/speaker__________me________________________door/speaker
left soundstage_________________________me________________________rightsoundstage


totally doable and not constrained by speaker location.. you people really need to listen to some good home stereo's that IMAGE properly.. again get the file I mentioned and try it. if you are limited by voice coil location, then the how do 2ch speaker stereo setup in a home project a soundstage wider than the loudspeakers even when severely toed in??? again doable and happens all the time.. you still have wall reflecting like doors and windows..I can sit off center at home and move my soundstage wherever I want it.. thanks to some nice pro gear and DSP! put the soundstage wherever you like it..and not it does not shift or compress off center the soungstage when done right!


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Mic10is said:


> lets simplify this even more.
> competition was originally judged from both seats.
> 
> where is center between the driver and passenger


This is a different subject, it's is the same as tuning a McLaren F1. We don't drive center seat cars and we are generally interested in the best sound for the driver. For two seat focus or McLaren F1 I agree with you, center should be center of the dash. However, I think where we disagree about is what TA is doing for a left of center position. 



Mic10is said:


> I can use no TA and have center in front of me


Sure, but again this is not the focus of the thread. You can do one of the following to get a center without TA:

1.Mount right speakers closer.
2.Move seat in the middle. 
3.Get a recording where the mic was not in the center.

1. will get you less width than if you were to use conventional speaker locations and TA
2. is expensive
3. is expensive, pretty much all music is recorded with the mic in the middle.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

The focus of the thread is where center should be located.

the answer is equidistant between the the left and right stage boundaries.

you can view the boundaries as the physical dimensions of the vehicle itself or the physical boundaries of the soundstage that is created.

in both situations, center is still located equally between left and right.

this has little to nothing to do with seating position, bc that is a given and something that cannot be changed.

so again there is "Right" and there is preference.

if you want to have center be in front of you--that is your preference but it is not technically correct.

there isnt a single competition organization that would agree with you nor any competitor or even home audio guys.

center is center.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I've heard cars with kick mounted mids and dash mounted mids that staged past the physical boundaries of the car.
> 
> Randy Kunin's white Accord would stage out to the side view mirrors. Chefhow's car on my disk at ESN was constantly physically wider than the boundaries of the car. My car stages past the pillars. All of those cars had very symmetrical stages. Anyone who heard Andy's old Mini with the precursor of the MS-8 would tell you his car was smaller than the sound stage. Steve Head's last incarnation of his Civic would stage past the physical boundaries of the car...hell, I judged it at ESN from the passenger's seat with someone (Brett Nelker) sitting in the driver's seat).
> 
> ...


You're right and I agree to an extent. However, in the cases you speak of, I'm willing to bet the extension beyond physical boundaries were pretty even (ie: if right side was x inches further, the left side was x inches further as well) otherewise, I'd have to venture a guess and say that the center image was skewed the half the delta to the 'furthest' side. 

In some cars, width is a bit further outside physical locations... I've managed this in my car. Aiming has a lot to do with it as do reflections. However, my overall point is that the center should be in the acoustical center. For most systems, this tends to be approximately halfway between the physical locations. 
Anything other than this will result in a squished stage, on whichever side the 'center' falls as it is no longer the acoustic center. 

Agree (within reason)?



As far as home stereo, it's the same. I'll give some leeway for overall width being beyond physical locations, but the premise is still the same: acoustic center by definition is the center of left and rightmost soundstage. I'm not here to argue semantics... I think this topic is pretty cut and dry. You either fall on preference or you fall on definition. I personally don't care what anyone here does. I just think we need to set goals here.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

broad statement that is total BS... get the recording and you will see what I am talking about. If the mic is in the middle of 3 people and you are sitting there facing the middle person your system should put him right in front of you with the other folks properly spaced..PERIOD.. COMPETITON RULES BE DAMMMED> you need to reproduce the recording soundstage and that person is in the center..If the recording is made to the left is needs to sound that way! your statement of not technically correct is not correct!


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

tnbubba said:


> ............................door/speaker__________me________________________door/speaker
> left soundstage_________________________me________________________rightsoundstage


This is kinda like my graph. There is however one minor distinction. You say with DSP you can actually widen the soundstage. I think you can, but not just with TA. If that were the case we would just use max delay possible. DSP has to be smarter than that to extend stage width beyond physical boundaries.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

YEP... that takes some serious power not in a car setup yet.. or I'm not putting $4K worth or studio dsp crap in my car.. It'll stay in the barn studio.. but.. with TA and the right EQ (remember that freq aborations can cause psychoacoustic shift) you can get pretty close.
Remember the old trick to move the sound stage BEFORE DSP??

add a 0.5 -1 db more gain to the right speaker.. fools the ear and shifted the soundstage!!!


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Mic10is said:


> if you want to have center be in front of you--that is your preference but it is not technically correct.


I agree with everything in your post but this. Of course you want the center to be in front of you. You said it yourself, at the concert it was best when you were closest to the middle!! Why would you want that in a concert but not in the car? Don't you want to recreate a center show performance? You have a dual standard, I'm not sure how you reconcile that. It's like you take a step back, and you no longer care about the band, but you want what, the car acoustics to distort the actual recording? 

I'm totally ok with not agreeing with the competition rule book. I think it's flawed. It's not competition theory that matters, it's the acoustic engineers that advance our understanding of sound reproduction. That is a truth and a technically correct statement. I'll take Lycan's degree over any trophy.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

um I dont know what you drive, but in my car and every car I built I am maybe 6" away from the physical center of the vehicle...not 6 feet

so I want center to be in the center bc I cant physically change my seating position. I also have passengers and compete in 2 seat competition.

center is center

If you want to get an acoustic engineers input--ask Gary Summers who won Modex at MECA Finals...he's on this board. He's won Oscars for his work on soundtracks. he works for Pixar.

his center image was right of center of the driver basically where the center of his soundstage was......


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

tnbubba said:


> YEP... that takes some serious power not in a car setup yet.. or I'm not putting $4K worth or studio dsp crap in my car.. It'll stay in the barn studio.. but.. with TA and the right EQ (remember that freq aborations can cause psychoacoustic shift) you can get pretty close.
> Remember the old trick to move the sound stage BEFORE DSP??
> 
> add a 0.5 -1 db more gain to the right speaker.. fools the ear and shifted the soundstage!!!


Agreed! For the purpose of the thread subject we assume that we EQ. and level match perfectly. We also assume we have a seat that is off center and we care about the driver. Because, as you can see there are many many that still believe that the center of the soundstage should off center...sigh... I think that's what we should focus on.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Mic10is said:


> um I dont know what you drive, but in my car and every car I built I am maybe 6" away from the physical center of the vehicle...not 6 feet
> 
> so I want center to be in the center bc I cant physically change my seating position. I also have passengers and compete in 2 seat competition.
> 
> ...



My car is in my sig. But anyway, what difference does it make, whether you are off center by an inch or a mile you are still off center. 

The point is you can trick your mind into thinking that speaker locations have shifted, that's the whole beauty of TA. 

I don't want to guess what this guys' theories are, but I know most of the guys enter a competition to win. If the rule book says hop on one leg I will if that's what it takes to win. I won't necessarily change the way I walk around town.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

tnbubba said:


> broad statement that is total BS... get the recording and you will see what I am talking about. If the mic is in the middle of 3 people and you are sitting there facing the middle person your system should put him right in front of you with the other folks properly spaced..PERIOD.. COMPETITON RULES BE DAMMMED> you need to reproduce the recording soundstage and that person is in the center..If the recording is made to the left is needs to sound that way! your statement of not technically correct is not correct!


your example is perfect!!
the recording is 3 people with a mic in the middle.
IF you were there and you were facing the middle person, then he should be directly in the middle.

Move this to a car and YOU move to the left. HE DOESNT MOVE--YOU DO.
Which now moves him to the right of you.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> This is kinda like my graph. There is however one minor distinction. You say with DSP you can actually widen the soundstage. I think you can, but not just with TA. If that were the case we would just use max delay possible. _*DSP has to be smarter than that to extend stage width beyond physical boundaries.*_


This is the entire basis for my point.
If you are limited by your physical locations (and, I think we'd almost all agree that you are to a fair extent) then in order for you to have the center in front of you, you'd have to place yourself physicall in the center of the speakers.
You can't do this in the car. So, you do the next best thing (to keep center, by definition, the center of acoustical information): you 'move' the center image to the center of physical boundaries (or acoustical boundaries... whatever you want to call it).
As you said, no T/A in the world can physically move a speaker outside the car. 


Again, I don't want to nitpick over a few inches of width "outside the pillars". I can deal with that. The point is that you are indeed limited by your physical boundaries (to whatever extent you care to admit) and you suffer the consequence. 



tnbubba said:


> add a 0.5 -1 db more gain to the right speaker.. fools the ear and shifted the soundstage!!!


So, in this sentence you are saying you've moved your rightmost side to sound closer to you, thus allowing you balance between left and right stage, and getting the center in front of you. Okay, I understand that. So, you don't have a squished stage... but you don't have as wide of a stage as others then. 

Here's the math:
Drivers are placed 100" apart in the car at left and right most boundaries. By mine, Mic's, Kirk's, etc, etc methods, the center would be at 50". Therefore, the stage would be 50" wide on both sides.
By your standard, you are bringing the right side 'to you' and putting the center in front of you. So, you then have 25" wide stage on both sides. 
(again, imaginary numbers to illustrate point).

Would you agree that's a fair rendition of what you've said? And, if it is, then you would concede to having the illusion of a more narrow stage, correct?
That's fine if that's what you want. In fact, you are then following the definition at a loss of stage width. We are then in complete agreeance here.



cvjoint said:


> I agree with everything in your post but this. Of course you want the center to be in front of you. You said it yourself, at the concert it was best when you were closest to the middle!! Why would you want that in a concert but not in the car?


IMO, it's just a matter of choosing the lesser of the two evils, depending on your tastes. We know we can't physically move ourselves to be between the boundaries, so we do what we can. I and others choose to put the center of the boundaries in the center of the car to get a wider stage at the loss of having a more 'intimate' sound due to the vocalist being off to the side. Others choose to put it in front of them (like the guy above) and therefore have a more narrow stage overall. 

No one is better than anyone because one does it one way. There are 2 ways to skin the cat here... just go with what you want. IMO, as long as the center is the true acoustic center, then you're good to go. 



cvjoint said:


> I'm totally ok with not agreeing with the competition rule book. I think it's flawed. It's not competition theory that matters, it's the acoustic engineers that advance our understanding of sound reproduction. That is a truth and a technically correct statement. I'll take Lycan's degree over any trophy.


My buddy is a producer/engineer. I called him up just to check my sanity... he agrees. Center = acoustic center. Acoustic center = typically within physical boundaries for stereo. 



*note, again, I'm not even touching the idea or notion that one can achieve considerable 'width' past physical boundaries. For multiple reasons, but mainly, because it does nothing to help any argument here*







Mic10is said:


> Move this to a car and YOU move to the left. HE DOESNT MOVE--YOU DO.
> Which now moves him to the right of you.


^this


Just something to consider... food for thought, if you will....
If you pop a cd in, Turn off your t/a and phase trickery, plop your butt into the center of your car, you'll have the center image in front of you (barring some silly crossover errors).


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> your example is perfect!!
> the recording is 3 people with a mic in the middle.
> IF you were there and you were facing the middle person, then he should be directly in the middle.
> 
> ...



I think the point people are trying to make is this:

in order to experience music in the most enjoyable way, and in the most convincingly realistic way possible, the listener should be directly in front of the center. For me, who doesn't compete, that is all that matters.

edit: just to clarify, I meant that my own enjoyment is all that matters to me - I wasn't saying the center is all that matters, I figured that might be misinterpreted


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

NO he moved relative to me.. I did not move!!!!! somebody shifted the whole **** car to the right!!! now move the soundstage back in front of ME!!!!

nope soundstage didn't not squish!

see my previous post

..i sit in the center of my truck whilst driving down the road i can operate the gas clutch and brake with my left foot! soundstage and image like a mofo that way no TA

now TNA that's a different story!


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

bd5034 said:


> I think the point people are trying to make is this:
> 
> in order to experience music in the most enjoyable way, and in the most convincingly realistic way possible, the listener should be directly in front of the center. For me, who doesn't compete, that is all that matters.
> 
> edit: just to clarify, I meant that my own enjoyment is all that matters to me - I wasn't saying the center is all that matters, I figured that might be misinterpreted


Fine--that is personal preference. Kudos to you.:thumbsup:
Do what makes you happiest


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

OMG producers and engineers.. you can count all the good ones on two hands.. all the musicians I know think they rate right up their pond scum>>LMAO>> I'll tak a concert violinist anyday over a producer.. man I'm ready to take up drinking as a sport again after this!


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> IMO, it's just a matter of choosing the lesser of the two evils, depending on your tastes. We know we can't physically move ourselves to be between the boundaries, so we do what we can. I and others choose to put the center of the boundaries in the center of the car to get a wider stage at the loss of having a more 'intimate' sound due to the vocalist being off to the side. Others choose to put it in front of them (like the guy above) and therefore have a more narrow stage overall.


So, if I understand correctly you do agree that center of the stage can be moved to the steering wheel with TA. However, the other edge of the sword is that stage width gets narrower in your argument, and that is the tradeoff. 

Where would it get narrow? Certainly not to the right of the driver. We do not use any TA for the right speaker, and we are also not moving it's physical location. So how is it that the perceived distance to the right driver is shorter? On the left side the physical distance hasn't changed but we are delaying the sound. This can only make the perceived distance longer or keep it the same (depending on whether you think the overall width can change). 

To sum up, how can the stage get narrower with TA? If you believe it can get narrower than you must also believe it can get wider!


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

the father you move something away the father the perceived width narrows.
it becomes like a tunnel.

Just for ****s and giggles, Ive max'd TA in cars before and pushed the center image way beyond the physical boundaries of the vehicle, about 12 feet away from the listener. but the stage width was now about a foot or 2 wide.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> Fine--that is personal preference. Kudos to you.:thumbsup:
> Do what makes you happiest


ty. although the funny thing about personal preference is that it can change, haha

At least with a static definition you can be certain you're right on the mark. There's something to be said for that, even sans competition.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Erin, I had a reply but forgot what I was going to say.

But I do agree with what you said.


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## dkh (Apr 2, 2008)

What are you guys arguing about? How the **** can centre of stage be so difficult to understand 

Why not just say my preference is.... rather than try and state it as fact?

two points and the point between them is centre. Now preference is: I always like to sit in the centre of the two points - sorry can't do in a car with two front seats without major jiggery! but thats what I do... :laugh:

Anyone who thinks that TA can physically (seriously :laugh move a speaker left or right needs to get reality check.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

When I first joined this forum I though that center should be in front of me - right above the wheel. 
Then after reading, I changed the way I think and managed to move my "acoustic center" in between where my speakers are located - meaning in the middle of the dashboard. 

Now I have a question for some pros: 
I sit in the driver's seat lets say 3' from the left speaker and 4' from the right speaker. 
With acoustic center being in the middle of the dash, it is possible to get a soundstage that's 10' wide (slightly outside the boundaries of the car on BOTH sides) which is +1.5'. 
Hard enough as it is for some... 
............L ___(______C______)___R
..........................ME
OK, now with those that like their center image in front of them. Can you get a soundstage that's still 5' on your left and 5' on your right? Therefore +2.5' out of the boundary of the car on the left and have the right at the pillar?. (just making up some numbers...) 
......L ______(___C_________)R
...........................ME
The other question is do you have depth with center in front of you - I know I didn't 

Kelvin 

PS: () are the boundaries of the car.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

tnbubba said:


> NO he moved relative to me.. I did not move!!!!! somebody shifted the whole **** car to the right!!! now move the soundstage back in front of ME!!!!
> 
> nope soundstage didn't not squish!
> 
> ...


So if u go to a show and sit in the middle of the stage everything should be centered? Now move to the left? Is it now infront of u? No it's still in the middle, You moved, not the stage. Now to get the stage to be centered from that left seating position u are saying to move it left to be infront of u from the left position? Why? It's now no longer centered it's left of center. You may prefer to have the music appear to be infront of u but it's not centered. Center is the equal distance between 2 points and those 2 points are the physical boundaries of the sound stage or a vehicle in this case. If u want the stage to be infront of u from the drivers seat and centered in that position you have to move everything that is playing from the right side of the car over to approximately the physical center of the car narrowing the sound stage by 50% eliminating the entire passenger side of the stage. You have the illusion of a center being infront of you but again it's not centered according the physical boundaries given within the vehicle. I dont understand why the concept of center is so difficult, it's actually the easiest thing to define in a car IMHO.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

you missed my point entirely.. the sound stage shoud be ceentered relative to the LISTENER? It is NOT limited by physical bounderies of the walls in a home or car( the original venue yes recorded in yes) but is the APPARENT soundstage created in the reproduction of the recording. It can be made to extend past the width of 2 stereo speakers(home) or even past the bounderies of the walls or doors in cars. YES it is [possible.. again read my previous post..I can shift my listening position at home to the left 3' and I can move the ENTIRE soundstage 3' to the LEFT(dsp) so it is centered in front of of me with NO compression of the soundstage! Too many people listen with their eyes!!


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

I am the center of the universe. The stage should act accordingly.

One time I told somebody I was the center of the universe, and they replied that it was probably true because I was the densest object in the universe.


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## onebadmonte (Sep 4, 2008)

bd5034 said:


> I am the center of the universe. The stage should act accordingly.
> 
> One time I told somebody I was the center of the universe, and they replied that it was probably true because I was the densest object in the universe.


I agree with this guy. I don't want the the music to sound as if it's coming from the center of the dash. If that was the case I'd run a just one full range, mono, on the center of the dash and that would be that. I want the stereo affect with me dead center in the action.


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## dkh (Apr 2, 2008)

onebadmonte said:


> I agree with this guy. I don't want the the music to sound as if it's coming from the center of the dash. If that was the case I'd run a just one full range, mono, on the center of the dash and that would be that. I want the stereo affect with me dead center in the action.


:laugh:
Let me know what you come up with to get that


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

tnbubba said:


> you missed my point entirely.. the sound stage shoud be ceentered relative to the LISTENER? It is NOT limited by physical bounderies of the walls in a home or car( the original venue yes recorded in yes) but is the APPARENT soundstage created in the reproduction of the recording. It can be made to extend past the width of 2 stereo speakers(home) or even past the bounderies of the walls or doors in cars. YES it is [possible.. again read my previous post..I can shift my listening position at home to the left 3' and I can move the ENTIRE soundstage 3' to the LEFT(dsp) so it is centered in front of of me with NO compression of the soundstage! Too many people listen with their eyes!!


How can you have the soundstage centered in a venue relative to EVERY listener? ITS IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Lets say for instance you have a concert hall, a small one with 500 seats in it. 250 down the left side of the CENTER isle and 250 down the right side. From the center point of the isle you will be approximately 100' away when you are seated to the farthest point from center either to the left or right. How is the person sitting furthest from the center going to have a virtual soundstage that is centered TO THEM (as you claim center to be) while every seat going back to the center of the isle is hearing the same virtual center RELATIVE TO EACH INDIVIDUAL seating position? YOU CANT!!! So what you do is you make sure that every seat has the same center based on the position of the stage and not the seat. 

Now equate this back to a vehicle and set up a virtual center (or the center of the dash). Once you have that position in nice and tight all the other instruments, singers and supporting effects will naturally fall into place across the stage or dash. If you limit that stage to the spot directly infront of you, as a driver, you have virtually cut off half the width. You may have everything in place but it will be at a much narrower virtual stage. Now do this for the person sitting in the passenger seat as well and you will have two virtual stages that both go from center of the dash out to the respective A Pillar or side view mirror. 

You may be able to do this in your home, but lets say for instance you have some sick 2 channel home setup. Do you put the seats together so you have 1 single sound stage or do you move them apart to have two seperate yet identical sound stages? You put them together to be equal using a single sound stage that has everything in place as it was intended to be.

See I didnt miss your point, I think you are putting to much into the fact that the center should be infront of you and not where it was meant to be. In a vehicle you should be setting up the dash as the stage. Its width, depth and height should be in relation to the way it was recorded across the dash as a whole not to each individual listener. Thats how I've always seen it done and how I've always tried to do it, and Ive been around it since 1993ish.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I'm curious... you guys that hate the center to the side of you, have you listened to a really good car setup with the center in the middle? I'm thinking if you haven't, you need to. It might totally change your opinion on this topic. 

In my own experience, I've heard a few cars with the center in front of me and I didn't care for it. It was just awkward. I'm sure it has to do with the fact that I'm not used to it, but I also didn't appreciate the narrow stage.

As long as your center is the acoustical center, then you're fine. If it's not, then something is wrong. Now, if your center is in front of you you then inherently have a narrow stage (again, barring an abnormal install with drivers placed equidistant from your listening position). If it's to the side of you, you have a wider stage but a center to the side of you. As I said above, it's a trade off. There's no need for _anyone _to get all uppity about it.
To me, the tradeoff of having the center to the side but getting wide width is well worth it. It gives much more emphasis to panned staging (and effects) and is more discernible than with a narrow stage. That's just the nature of resolution. If you're viewing things in a small scale, small differences are hard to pick out. If you're viewing things in a large scale, subtle differences are easier to notice.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

Just for full disclosure, my center is *NOT* directly in front of me. It's halfway between the driver's seating position and the center of the windshield. Essentially line of sight with the hood ornament. 

I would love for it to be directly in front of me, but I am not willing to sacrifice in other areas in order for it to be so. 

Basically I want to have my cake and eat it too. I am aware of this, but I can't help my personal preference.


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## onebadmonte (Sep 4, 2008)

dkh said:


> :laugh:
> Let me know what you come up with to get that


When I watch a movie or sit down to listen to music, at home, through the ol' home theater I sit dead center. Equidistant from the left and right channels. When I go to a concert, I pay big money to sit dead center in the fifth row. When I go to the movie theater I get there an hour early so I can sit in the middle of the theater. I do this because the center is the sweet spot. In my car I sit offset of center, but I paid with my hard earned money for a system to sound as if I am in the center of it all. I understand that there are other seating locations at concerts and theaters that offer less than optimal sounds. Yes, every so often I get stuck in them. So how do I achieve this centered stage in front of me in a car? A little DSP a la MS8 some capable speakers and a ton of power. Depending on who the passenger is I can easily switch to center the image in front of the passenger, or I can switch and center the image at the center of the dash. At that point it'll sound just like that.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Well,chefhow you seem to forget that the reason for which you are not in the center is the carenviroment. You are skewing the sounstage by sitting to the left, that's not how it is supposed to be. So either sit on the center armrest or use dsp to movethe center. Whenyou use eq, do you also optimize for the center armrest?

Center dash argument relyies on two points:
1. I want to sit left of the band.
2. Stage narrows with center on the wheel.

Both are false. If you believe stagewidth is based on physical location of drivers then with ta the width doesn't change!


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

If you cant understand that a stage has physical limitations and a room has physical limitations and a car has physical limitations than there is no way to make you understand that a center is limited by the above physical limitations. 

And I agree with you that T/A wont change width, its not intended to. What it does do is help ppl create a truer center and virtually correct sound stage.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> Whenyou use eq, do you also optimize for the center armrest?
> 
> Center dash argument relyies on two points:
> 1. I want to sit left of the band.
> ...


I disagree. 


In a car, the width is set by the boundary, which is the car... and the speakers are pretty much at these edge boundaries (door, pillar) because no one installs a speaker on top of the dash. You can't have reflections or sound coming further than this "box". Okay, so let's say I give you a couple inches 'outside' these bounds... I'll give you that. Still, your left side isn't jumping out the proportional distance it needs to to keep your right side width even with your left side width. There is no T/A or level matching or EQ that can do this. Period. Not in the car. I don't care what you say. You're a crazy ol' heretic if you tell me you can get your left side stage 4' outside your car (the distance you are to the right side). ESPECIALLY if you also want to say your right side is out 4' beyond the car, too, because now you've got to make your left side 8' outside the car..... ain't happening. Again, think about this... your two sides have to be acoustically even and balanced and if the center is in front of you, you have to either move the right side in or move the left side extremely far out. It's just not happening in the car. Listening with eyes or ears... ain't happenin. 



cvjoint said:


> If you believe stagewidth is based on physical location of drivers then with ta the width doesn't change!


Exactly what I agree with. 


You're not trying to move width... as you've stated... you pretty much can't do anything beyond physical locations. You're not moving yourself relative to the center image. _In this case_ you're moving the center image relative to you with t/a and levels. 

You plop your butt down in a car... you're closer to the left side. For two reasons, this defaults your center (while probably still incoherent) to be closer to in front of you: ITD and ILD. 
You make a few tweaks here and there and you now have a coherent center in front of you. Problem is now you either have a squished stage on the driver's side or you have a narrow stage. There is pretty much no way around this. Again, speaking in general car audio terms... I'm not talking about your home stereo with boundaries such as the wall being far beyond physical location of speaker locations.

So, for those of us who want to have a wider stage, we spend days/weeks/months tuning to get a coherent center in the middle of the car (because, again, this is ~ where the center of the acoustic limits are). We do this at the cost of a center in front of us, but we now have a wide stage. And, then you can see my pros for that in my previous post (ie: resolution).


*Food for thought. When someone uses a center channel in a car, where do they (and manufacturers) put it? Why do you think that is? ..........*


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

chefhow said:


> If you cant understand that a stage has physical limitations and a room has physical limitations and a car has physical limitations than there is no way to make you understand that a center is limited by the above physical limitations.
> 
> And I agree with you that T/A wont change width, its not intended to. What it does do is help ppl create a truer center and virtually correct sound stage.


Understanding physical limitations is easy. Nobody here will disagree with you. 

You statements above are however, contradictory. In the first paragraph you say perceived staging is all limited by physical boundaries. In the second paragraph you claim DSP can change your perception of the sound stage. Not sure what your argument is anymore.





bikinpunk said:


> So, for those of us who want to have a wider stage, we spend days/weeks/months tuning to get a coherent center in the middle of the car (because, again, this is ~ where the center of the acoustic limits are). We do this at the cost of a center in front of us, but we now have a wide stage. And, then you can see my pros for that in my previous post (ie: resolution).


Ok, I'm trying to focus on one subject at the time so we can clear this out. I'm using your argument that the stage width is limited by the physical location of your speakers. This time an example:

I start with a 5 feet wide car. My stage is 5 feet wide.

I add time alignment for center wheel. 

My stage is still 5 feet wide. 

Based on your argument TA cannot change width. 

So how is it that I get a narrower sound stage with TA?


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## CraigE (Jun 10, 2008)

With or without a center channel, the MS-8 autotune will place the center image at center of the dash (for the driver), when the calibration is performed from the driver seat.
When the calibration is performed from the passenger seat, the center image is at center of the dash for the passenger. 

You can take physical measurements from the center of your head to each speaker, and input them into the Bit One.1
The center image (for the driver) will be at the center of the dash,when the measurements are performed from the driver seat.
When the measurements are performed from the passenger seat, the center image is at center of the dash for the passenger.

Are both JBL and Audison wrong ?


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

You aren't following me. Let's try this again....

A center is supposed to be the middle of two points, we can all agree upon that I hope. It you move the center over 2.5' in a 5' car and make the center now infront of u instead of the physical center and you have shifted everything to the left. Still with us? Now everything that was coming into play from the right has essentially shift 2.5' as well but to the left. You can't leave it at the a pillar, time alignment doesn't work that way. It's not like at home where you can just move or turn the speaker to accommodate for the listeners positions. It shifts everything either left off right depending upon what you delay.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Oops, double post. Damn phones...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

CraigE said:


> With or without a center channel, the MS-8 autotune will place the center image at center of the dash (for the driver), when the calibration is performed from the driver seat.
> When the calibration is performed from the passenger seat, the center image is at center of the dash for the passenger.
> 
> You can take physical measurements from the center of your head to each speaker, and input them into the Bit One.1
> ...


Is that what it does for sure? I think both the Audisson and JBL units time align everything in reference to where you put the mic. If you put the mic in the driver's seat then all speakers are perceived equidistant in reference to the driver aka center of the steering wheel. You and me time align the same I think. However, you think it tunes for center of the dash, and I don't think that's what it does, it doesn't know where the dash is!

What if you put the mic inbetween the seats, what does it tune for? What if you put the mic on the rearview mirror? It always tries to get equal distance from where the mic is. 



chefhow said:


> You aren't following me. Let's try this again....
> 
> A center is supposed to be the middle of two points, we can all agree upon that I hope. It you move the center over 2.5' in a 5' car and make the center now infront of u instead of the physical center and you have shifted everything to the left. Still with us? Now everything that was coming into play from the right has essentially shift 2.5' as well but to the left. You can't leave it at the a pillar, time alignment doesn't work that way. It's not like at home where you can just move or turn the speaker to accommodate for the listeners positions. It shifts everything either left off right depending upon what you delay.


Do you delay the right speaker (farthest one)? The farthest speaker has 0 delay, and it physically doesn't move. So what happens to this speaker? Your theory says it moves left?? You said everything moves left when you move center left. That can't be true. I can move only the left speaker left (with TA) and move the center without moving the right.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> Ok, I'm trying to focus on one subject at the time so we can clear this out. I'm using your argument that the stage width is limited by the physical location of your speakers. This time an example:
> 
> I start with a 5 feet wide car. My stage is 5 feet wide.
> 
> ...



Simple: you get a squished stage on the left side. Therefore, the right side stage is wider than the left. Thus, the center is not the _acoustical center_. 
It's not that the entire stage is narrower in your case; it's that the entire stage isn't _symmetrical_. 
That is what I have been trying to stress this entire thread. 

Now, for the guy who has said he moves his rightmost sound _to him_ then his entire stage is narrower than a car whose user uses the entire physical bounds to outline his acoustical left and right. However, he's got his acoustical center in the center. (how he moves his right side _in_ via T/A, I'm not too sure of ).

I and others add t/a (phase) and level match the left side to move the center to ~ the center of the car (aka: the center of driver placement). Again, per ITD & ILD. You wind up with an equidistant left and right stage.


Make more sense?



Edit: Reading this information about ILD and ITD should help clear up some things. I *strongly *urge those who aren't familiar with it to read it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization#ITD_and_ILD


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> Simple: you get a squished stage on the left side. Therefore, the right side stage is wider than the left. Thus, the center is not the _acoustical center_.
> 
> That is what I have been trying to stress this entire thread.
> 
> ...


Aha! Now we are talking. So you agree with me that the OVERALL stage width does not change? I was just trying to get this simple point across because most folks tune center dash because they think the overall stage width narrows. You and me both agree now that the whole stage width does not narrow down. 

Now let's talk about what you really want to talk about, the distance segments CR and CL. You and Mic 10is have the same theory that TA narrows down CL and widens CR (keeping the overall stage width unchanged). 

*Let's focus:*
Perceived stage before TA:
.................L _________C_________R
..........................ME

This is not debatable. It's what the perceived stage is without TA when L and R are two fullrange speakers.

Now the interesting part, and where all the debate should be, is what does TA do when you delay L enough with TA to be perceived as the same distance as R?
A)Here is the bikinpunk/Mic 10is theory:
Perceived stage after TA:
.................L ____C______________R
..........................ME
Note this means overall stage width is the SAME, but LC is narrower, and CR is wider. Therefore bikinpunk/Mic 10is claim you shouldn't time align because all the stage effects in LC have less separation. 

Now here is the Chefhow theory:
B)Perceived stage after TA:
......L __________C__________R
..........................ME
The interpretation is the following, everything shifts left even though we only delay L. 

C)Now here is a theory I'm throwing in there cvjoint theory:
Perceived stage after TA:
L ______________C_______________R
...........................ME
So here is the intuition here. The distance between ME and R didn't change physically, nor did I delay R because it's the farthest speaker. So the perceived distance between ME and R should remain the same after TA. The center however moves in front of me as I delay L. This means everything is centered in front of me and the pereceived soundstage is wider than without TA. However, you cannot increase stage width by further delaying L, and R by the same amount. This will delay the actual music from playing. So in a sense the physical location of speakers is binding, the stage can only be as wide as 2x(distance to farthest speaker). However, with TA center is in front of you and L, R are an equal distance away from C, which makes center center. 

Now let's talk about A),B),C). This should be more organized than before. If you have another theory we can do a D) etc.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> Therefore *bikinpunk/Mic 10is claim you shouldn't time align* because all the stage effects in LC have less separation.
> However, with TA center is in front of you and L, R are an equal distance away from C, which makes center center.


what shouldn't I time align?... looking for clarification here as I don't want words to be put in my mouth. 
I use t/a for the left side. I also use levels for the left side. You're physically closer so you delay the signal time and levels to create a center in the center of the car because, again, the width is set by speaker locations to a large degree and the center of these two points is the center of the car.
_*ILD. 
ITD.*_

(fwiw, I use t/a and levels for every speaker in my car because t/a isn't just a means of shifting signal ).



cvjoint said:


> However, with TA center is in front of you and L, R are an equal distance away from C, which makes center center.


This simply does not happen. You cannot have an equal distance Left-center stage and right-center stage with the 'center' being in front of you. Not in any car stereo install I've ever seen or heard.
You can't use any DSP to move a speaker further away from you. Again, we align/level match to move the center. Not the left most speaker. 
Why do we do this?... go back to my initial point about the sound, sans DSP. Your baseline when you jump in the car bonestock is with the 'center' closer to in front of you (sans some serious phase issues, in most cases). In your case, there's no problem here.... just fix some phase anamolies and you're done, right?
Well, what everyone else is doing is moving their center so that it is then the center of the acoustical boundaries. 
If you got in a car that had speakers in the pillars and the center is in front of you I can pretty much guarantee you that the stage would not be equidistant on each side due to the fact that your car has physical boundaries and the sound cannot extend past those (IE: the average joe posting here) . 


I hope this helps clear things up. To summarize, and yes, I'm going to overgeneralize...
You cannot move a speaker's sound further than where it is located physically. Since you cannot do this, you KNOW that putting the 'center' in front of you results in an uneven stage for left and right staging. Therefore, you put the center in the middle of the physical bounds. Now you have an even stage.


Again, I implore: Why do users and manufacturers of center channel cars put the center channel speaker in the center of the dash? 
Something to think about...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

It was all in the post... Here, good theory starts with the basics, so let's do that before we add center channels and pillar tweeters etc.

We have a car with only 6.5 drivers in the doors. Fullrange. The sound pressure level from both L and R are equalized perfectly using the gain adjustment feature. The sound is equalized so that both L, R have identical frequency response. All we have is time allignment to do (or not):

With no TA the physical and perceived stage is this:

.................[L _________C_________R]
..........................ME

With TA we can delay the sound arriving from the left speaker. What happens when we delay it? Am I correct in thinking there are three major ideas going on in this thread?

A)Here is the bikinpunk/Mic 10is theory:
Perceived stage after TA:
.................[L ____C______________R]
..........................ME


Now here is the Chefhow theory:
B)Perceived stage after TA:
......L _____[_____C__________R........]
..........................ME


C)Now here is a theory I'm throwing in there cvjoint theory:
Perceived stage after TA:
L ________[______C_______________R]
...........................ME

Now use the way humans localize sound from the wiki article to support your theory and so shall I.

Edit: some guys like to see physical boundaries in every theory illustration so I'm adding those as parenthesis.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

I feel that you need to define the boundaries of the car in order for people to understand better what's going on  



cvjoint said:


> Aha! Now we are talking. So you agree with me that the OVERALL stage width does not change? I was just trying to get this simple point across because most folks tune center dash because they think the overall stage width narrows. You and me both agree now that the whole stage width does not narrow down.
> 
> Now let's talk about what you really want to talk about, the distance segments CR and CL. You and Mic 10is have the same theory that TA narrows down CL and widens CR (keeping the overall stage width unchanged).
> 
> ...


I see the point of both parties. Being in the center and having the drum located right in front of us would be golden but I don't think it's achievable in a car. Might be wrong and that's why I'm following this thread. 
Reading posted technical articles on the forum has made me realized that "acoustic center" should be in the middle of the car boundaries. 

TBH, I had a hard time wrapping my head around the whole concept of having the same amplitude from both L and R speaker and delaying the drivers side relative to the passenger side and NOT have the center right in front of me. However I've been told that in order to have some depth the center needs to be slightly left of center of the dash. BAAM!!! Instant depth. Really a great surprise since I've been tuning the car for a couple of years now. 
_bd5034_ was argumenting that center should be in front of the driver, above the wheel, yet he then admitted that center is actually halfway between the wheel and the center of the dash. 

Erin made an interesting yet simple comment that was simply overlooked: 
*Food for thought. When someone uses a center channel in a car, where do they (and manufacturers) put it? Why do you think that is? ..........* 
Would like to hear what some have to say about that... 

I guess what I'm trying to say is UNLESS you can go pass the windshield and have the center on your hood, the acoustic center can't be right in front of the driver's wheel - making for a squeeched left soundstage. 
L _______(____C___________)R
...........................ME 
^^ the above means you have +3' outside the L side... Really? 
And what if you have +2' on the R side that means that you can now have +5' on the L side? Some people must be a hell of a tuner 


Kelvin 

PS: no need to talk about home audio since most don't have speakers inside walls


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

would u want the playmate of the year sitting in the center of your dash or in your lap at the steering wheel?


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

*Center:* A point or place that is equally distant from the sides or outer boundaries of something; the middle: the center of a stage.

For simplicity, in car audio, let's assume the width stops at the furthest point in the cabin. Following the definition of *center*, this means that all of the centered information (the singer) should be centered on the dash. If you want the centered information in front of you, that is fine...but it isn't the center.

Let's take this outside of the car. The home theater in my living room is set up acoustically for a centered seat even though there isn't one because of the way the room is laid out and my wife's furniture selection.  I typically sit to the left of the television. If I set up *center* like the "steering wheel" people did, I would be looking at the screen but the voices would be coming from the left of the screen. Does that seem correct?

So, when in the driver seat (or passenger seat) you are left (or right) of center and you must look to the right (or left) to "see" the singer/drummer/etc. in the center of the stage.

Now, if you want the center information in front of you because of preference, that is fine...it is your system to enjoy. Just understand what it will do to your stage. If, again for simplicity, we are bound to the widest points of the cabin for width and the "center" is in front of you, you will have a very narrow left side of the stage and a very wide stage.

For this example, let's say the layout is: 

Bass--------Singer/Drummer--------Guitar

If your center image is in the middle of the dash, everything will be laid out like above. If you chose to move the "center" in front of you, it will look like:

Bass--Singer/Drummer--------------Guitar

If you can move the soundstage beyond the physical bounderies of the car, it is done by *Psychoacoustics*. The best way I know how to do this is by encouraging acoustic crosstalk (some L information coming from the R side and vice-versa) and by having NO rattles of resonance to give away the physical speaker locations. Now, if you want to have the singer in front of you with a "steering wheel center", you need to achieve this act on only the left side, since the right side is already VERY far away. If done, you could in theory have a center that is in front of you AND a stage that isn't squished...but I hate to think what the experience would be like for the passenger in that vehicle.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

I'll repeat you can do it(center stage at listener, at any position within reason) with out Squishing the soundstage..
check previous posts for results form "competition cars" or visit some really good studios and see how its done!


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

subwoofery said:


> I feel that you need to define the boundaries of the car in order for people to understand better what's going on


Ninja edit right before you posted haha. I really think we should focus discussion on points A), B), C) and use the human mechanism for localizing sound to back our theories up. I slimmed it down enough that we can get to the bottom of this. We can move up to level setting, EQ, 5.1 after. We need the basics first.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

who cares about the passengers..like the previous poster said he is the center of the universe and when I listen to my stereo so am I!


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

tnbubba said:


> I'll repeat you can do it(center stage at listener, at any position within reason) with out Squishing the soundstage..
> check previous posts for results form "competition cars" or visit some really good studios and see how its done!


If your post is directed toward me, I KNOW it can be done...I'm pretty sure I just said it. But unless you correct for it, the "center" won't be the *center*. And unless you only compensate for width on one side (like I mentioned above also), even if you do un-squish the stage, it still won't be *center*.



tnbubba said:


> who cares about the passengers..like the previous poster said he is the center of the universe and when I listen to my stereo so am I!


I do. I don't care if I drive the car 90% of the time myself, when I show it off, I will be espcecially proud when the listener can sit in the PASSENGER seat and share the experience with me at the same time. Maybe I like a challenge and most don't...but that is my preference, and since to me, the defintion of *center* is what we should aim for, my goals are actually one in the same.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

tnbubba said:


> I'll repeat you can do it(center stage at listener, at any position within reason) with out Squishing the soundstage..
> check previous posts for results form "competition cars" or visit some really good studios and see how its done!


Please tell us how it's done. I'd really like to know. 

Kelvin


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> Ninja edit right before you posted haha. I really think we should focus discussion on points A), B), C) and use the human mechanism for localizing sound to back our theories up. I slimmed it down enough that we can get to the bottom of this. We can move up to level setting, EQ, 5.1 after. We need the basics first.


Nice 









Feel this is a better thread than past "where should center be" threads. 

Kelvin


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

pionkej said:


> If you can move the soundstage beyond the physical bounderies of the car, it is done by *Psychoacoustics*. The best way I know how to do this is by encouraging acoustic crosstalk (some L information coming from the R side and vice-versa) and by having NO rattles of resonance to give away the physical speaker locations.


That's not TA. Is your stand A)? With TA and a left hand drive car the LC portion of the stage is squished to achieve a center in front of the listener? Why?


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> That's not TA. Is your stand A)? With TA and a left hand drive car the LC portion of the stage is squished to achieve a center in front of the listener? Why?


Why would it not be? I assume you're saying that if you just keep delaying the entire left side the stage will *move* further left? The stage will *pull* further left (which gives the squished effect) but it won't *move* further left. The sound is still originating from a source and you cannot phyically move beyond that source...not without psychoacoustics.

Until proven otherwise:

T/A is good for _aligning_ speakers. Align left, align right, align together so it seems the sound comes from one source. You can "move" closer speaker(s) to the speaker at the furthest point...but not beyond that.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

pionkej said:


> Why would it not be? I assume you're saying that if you just keep delaying the entire left side the stage will *move* further left? The stage will *pull* further left (which gives the squished effect) but it won't *move* further left. The sound is still originating from a source and you cannot phyically move beyond that source...not without psychoacoustics.
> 
> Until proven otherwise:
> 
> T/A is good for _aligning_ speakers. Align left, align right, align together so it seems the sound comes from one source. You can "move" closer speaker(s) to the speaker at the furthest point...but not beyond that.


TA adds delay. This changes the arrival time between the left and right speaker to the ear. I take this to be interaural time difference (or ITD). According to the wiki link someone posted this provides for localization cues at 90 degree azimuth (horizontal left right). Therefore TA can affect the perception of the location of speaker L. With a change in speaker L the center will also change. Bam. 

This is my first attempt at proving theory C). Your turn.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Ok something needs clarification. 

T/A doesn't make something move further or closer - it plays with phase and for phase to happen you need 2 signals. When you shut your R side and apply T/A to your L side, the L side will sound exactly the same - it won't sound like it has now moved to OUTSIDE the car... 

Therefore I agree with Pionkej that when applying T/A, the stage pulls to the left rather than moving the exact entire stage to the left. Your center stage might even sound louder if in front of you even with levels left untouched. 

Ok... please continue  

Kelvin


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

tnbubba said:


> I'll repeat you can do it(center stage at listener, at any position within reason) with out Squishing the soundstage..
> check previous posts for results form "competition cars" or visit some really good studios and see how its done!


*Every* competition car I've heard has center approximately in the center of the car. 
You might want to choose a better means of supporting your particular argument. 



I'm gonna say this one last time: you cannot have a center image in front of you without having the drivers equidistant from you. You can't do this in a conventional car and therefore do not have acoustic center in front of you in the car. 
Now, maybe if you place your left speakers on a boom and hang them outside your window...


Psychoacoustics be damned, any reasonable audio person will agree that space is defined by boundaries. Your car has boundaries. Your width is ~ your boundaries.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

subwoofery said:


> I guess what I'm trying to say is UNLESS you can go pass the windshield and have the center on your hood, the acoustic center can't be right in front of the driver's wheel - making for a squeeched left soundstage.
> L _______(____C___________)R
> ...........................ME
> ^^ *the above means you have +3' outside the L side... Really?
> And what if you have +2' on the R side that means that you can now have +5' on the L side? Some people must be a hell of a tuner *


yes!
I said the same thing a few posts back. Think you might be the only one who caught it.



subwoofery said:


> Erin made an interesting yet simple comment that was simply overlooked:
> *Food for thought. When someone uses a center channel in a car, where do they (and manufacturers) put it? Why do you think that is? ..........*
> Would like to hear what some have to say about that...


I would, too. I think it's a fair point that has gone overlooked (either intentionally or by cause of this thread being so long winded. 





subwoofery said:


> T/A doesn't make something move further or closer -* it plays with phase and for phase to happen you need 2 signals.* When you shut your R side and apply T/A to your L side, the L side will sound exactly the same - *it won't sound like it has now moved to OUTSIDE the car... *
> 
> Kelvin



Ding ding ding! 

excellent!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> TA adds delay. This changes the arrival time between the left and right speaker to the ear. I take this to be interaural time difference (or ITD). According to the wiki link someone posted this provides for localization cues at 90 degree azimuth (horizontal left right). Therefore TA can affect the perception of the location of speaker L. With a change in speaker L the center will also change. Bam.
> 
> This is my first attempt at proving theory C). Your turn.


As I stated before, t/a isn't used to move (physically or acoustically) a driver left or right. It's used to shift the relationship of both the left and right. We shift the *center* image. Nothing else. 
We shift the center image to the center. Why? Because we cannot do anything bout the far right and left due to their physical location. So, if our goal is to gain balance what can we do? Move the center to the midpoint of the physical (~acoustical) location. Now we have a center that meets the definition of the word. 
As you put it... Bam. 


And with that, I'm done. I've said all I can and I've said it about 5 different ways. I enjoy discussing the topic but I've honestly exhausted. I spent my day at work looking over source code for missile defense systems (and I'm not a computer code guru) and I feel that this thread has been a more painful process than that. lol.
Peace.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

We have a car with only 6.5 drivers in the doors. Fullrange. The sound pressure level from both L and R are equalized perfectly using the gain adjustment feature. The sound is equalized so that both L, R have identical frequency response. All we have is time allignment to do (or not):
* No such vehicle exists. There isnt a factory stereo out there that stages well out of the box, if there was then there would be no need for dsp.*

Now here is the Chefhow theory:
B)Perceived stage after TA:
......L _____[_____C__________R........]
..........................ME

*Again, no. If you use TA you will have a properly centered stage

L(________C_______)R
............ME 
See what I did there? I put everything where it should be based on the car's dash being a stage. you dont sit in the middle of a car you sit left of center. I dont understand why this is so difficult for you too understand*


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

Im exhausted by narrow minded people who cannot fathom past physical boundries!!!! I have stood with my shoulder against a room side wall closed my eyes and had a perfect full soundstage in front of me( no shifting no squishing no if there were physical boundries there I could not SEE them..
same reason you can stare at two diffenent colored dots on a page and have it turn into one single different colored dot. Star Trek type technology exsists its just not practical nor afforadable right now..give it 20 yrs. those same narrow mided people probably don't even know how a "stereo" signal is created or how it creates a "stereo" image! LMAO hell your ears are already being tricked into a stereo image.. physical boundries..LMAO


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

tnbubba said:


> I'll repeat you can do it(center stage at listener, at any position within reason) with out Squishing the soundstage..
> check previous posts for results form "competition cars" or visit some really good studios and see how its done!


I would like to know how you're doing it coz I didn't managed to. 

Kelvin


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## stereo_luver (Oct 30, 2007)

chefhow said:


> We have a car with only 6.5 drivers in the doors. Fullrange. The sound pressure level from both L and R are equalized perfectly using the gain adjustment feature. The sound is equalized so that both L, R have identical frequency response. All we have is time allignment to do (or not):
> * No such vehicle exists. There isnt a factory stereo out there that stages well out of the box, if there was then there would be no need for dsp.*
> 
> Now here is the Chefhow theory:
> ...


EXACTLY! I sit on the left side of the truck....but my center is located IN THE CENTER. TA/ phase and gains adjust for me to hear what 'should be centered' and all else falls in place. I can close my eyes and actually see the horns off to the right of center and behind the vocals. The lead guitar is slightly behind the vocals to the left and the bass is sometimes behind the vocals to either side depending on the recording. Its called staging. Some songs bring the vocals forward while other have a sence of the singer being off centered but still staged properly to the song being played. The realm of stereo is moved by the tuning of the system when TA, phase and gains are properly brought into focus.


Chuck


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## stereo_luver (Oct 30, 2007)

However.....my home stereo has no TA...BUT I can still sit in the sweet spot (which we are trying to reproduce off center) and close my eyes and see the stage.

Chuck


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

tnbubba said:


> Im exhausted by narrow minded people who cannot fathom past physical boundries!!!! *I have stood with my shoulder against a room side wall closed my eyes and had a perfect full soundstage in front of me( no shifting no squishing no if there were physical boundries there I could not SEE them.*.


this was too good not to reply to...

where was the center?
(if you say in front of you, you're lying because you didn't have music playing from the other side of the wall)
So much for boundaries not mattering, huh?
Of course, maybe the room was a hallway the width of your shoulders. 
catch 22. 


Peace.

(for real this time)


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

tnbubba said:


> Im exhausted by narrow minded people who cannot fathom past physical boundries!!!! I have stood with my shoulder against a room side wall closed my eyes and had a perfect full soundstage in front of me( no shifting no squishing no if there were physical boundries there I could not SEE them..
> same reason you can stare at two diffenent colored dots on a page and have it turn into one single different colored dot. Star Trek type technology exsists its just not practical nor afforadable right now..give it 20 yrs. those same narrow mided people probably don't even know how a "stereo" signal is created or how it creates a "stereo" image! LMAO hell your ears are already being tricked into a stereo image.. physical boundries..LMAO


And I've stood in a soundproofed room with only a pair of Apogee Centaur Majors running off a pair of Krell amps and a single chair. I was exactly dead center in between them and it sounded like I was sitting in that chair in the middle of the room in front of them. Infact no matter where I stood in that room it sounded the same, but there is one small detail that you are overlooking, a room isnt a car.


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## stereo_luver (Oct 30, 2007)

tnbubba said:


> I have stood with my shoulder against a room side wall closed my eyes and had a perfect full soundstage in front of me( no shifting no squishing no if there were physical boundries there I could not SEE them..


Impossible. There is no way this could be farther from real. The music will NOT follow you like a pair of eyes in a painting. Too many years of 2 channel set-ups that can have a simple change in the toe in or out of a speaker to change the listening enviroment drastically. I don't buy it for a minute. As Howard said and experienced it will have a good definition to the reproduction of the staging. BUT in my...and only in my experience with my gear which isn't slack by any means I can hear a difference in movement and placement of almost anything in the room. A car's enviroment sux.

Chuck


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> _bd5034_ was argumenting that center should be in front of the driver, above the wheel, yet he then admitted that center is actually halfway between the wheel and the center of the dash.
> 
> 
> Kelvin


I think I didn't express myself properly (sometimes my words and thoughts are incongruent). I'll try to express my thoughts more clearly, and I will stick to solely my thoughts. *Ideally* I prefer to be aligned with center stage because FOR ME, music is most convincing and most engaging when experienced in that position. I don't know if it's possible to have this in a car without sacrificing in other areas. I am not experienced enough to have a firm stance on that. I was simply intimating my personal preference and advocating for personal preference as a factor.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

I stood In in a room at company (xxx) ahd had a laser track my head( operated manually by system engineer) and follow my positon.It steered the soundstage perfectly.. Kiss my AZZ on your theoritical physical bounsdries!!! IT is being sone now.. can't say who..I have confidentiality and non complete clauses out the whaazoo, but at the time I was working for one of the largest machine and independent design firms/builders in the US and worked for such companies as NASA< IBM> HP etc etc and I have had the pleasure of hearing things that some of us will probably not get to hear in our lifetimes. IT CAN BE DONE>> OPEN YOUR FEEBLE MINDS.. as I pointed out look how easy it is to play tricks on your visial perception! IM DONE..


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Play the IASCA 7 drum beat imaging track.
All 7 beats should be evenly placed across the stage. for those people who think the center should be over the steering wheel--please tell me where the 4th drum beat is placed on the stage.

This is a simple exercise. we know where the drum beats should be placed. How it was recorded and what its intended purpose was when recorded.

If the 4th drum beat is anywhere but in the center of the soundstage, equal distance from right and left--You are doing it wrong!!!


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

You can also use the EMMA cd and its L/C/R track with the guy walking across the stage. He should start out left and make his way to the right and then back again.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

tnbubba said:


> I stood In in a room at company (xxx) ahd had a laser track my head( operated manually by system engineer) and follow my positon.It steered the soundstage perfectly.. Kiss my AZZ on your theoritical physical bounsdries!!! IT is being sone now.. can't say who..I have confidentiality and non complete clauses out the whaazoo, but at the time I was working for one of the largest machine and independent design firms/builders in the US and worked for such companies as NASA< IBM> HP etc etc and I have had the pleasure of hearing things that some of us will probably not get to hear in our lifetimes. IT CAN BE DONE>> OPEN YOUR FEEBLE MINDS.. as I pointed out look how easy it is to play tricks on your visial perception! IM DONE..


That is the weakest cop out for not being able to justify your stance that I think I may have heard in a long time.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

play the stereophile test track I spoke of earlier.. sounds totally screwed up on cars set for center stage in middle of dash.. dude sounds like he is standing way back to right when is is actually supposed to be IN FORNT OF THE LISTENER!! oh yea it uses 3 different mic set ups so you can see how recording techiniques change perceived stereo effect!!!

did I mention stereo is a perceived effect in itself??


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

google interaural(sp) depth perception and dsp( ithink you have to look at canadian research center too only clue im giving you.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

I have been working on the center image in my 2500 HD GMC and just not going to be right in the middle no matter what I do(what I learned from the grand master himself today)

I have a high stage, good depth, well focused, etc...but a center in front of the drivers seat and passenger seat and not wide enough to be really a center if you consider stage width. 

So, what do I do? I have built systems with very good center, height, width, depth, etc.... and want it in this truck but just not going to happen so I am going to tweak and tune what I have to get the best from it and try to learn to love it by focusing on the music and less on the lack of technical perfection.

It does sound dang good and will get better, just not in the F'in center I prefer

Rick


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

subwoofery said:


> Ok something needs clarification.
> 
> T/A doesn't make something move further or closer - it plays with phase and for phase to happen you need 2 signals. When you shut your R side and apply T/A to your L side, the L side will sound exactly the same - it won't sound like it has now moved to OUTSIDE the car...
> 
> ...


Anecdotal evidence at best. When we play music though L,R we play back a format: stereo. Stereo is much more than left and right speaker, they need to work together to provide staging cues. Now if you were to talk to me about how stereo is achieved, how our minds process and receive sound cues I'd be much happier. Tell me how your experiment plays out from playback to perception of soundstage. 



bikinpunk said:


> As I stated before, t/a isn't used to move (physically or acoustically) a driver left or right. It's used to shift the relationship of both the left and right. We shift the *center* image. Nothing else.
> We shift the center image to the center. Why? Because we cannot do anything bout the far right and left due to their physical location. So, if our goal is to gain balance what can we do? Move the center to the midpoint of the physical (~acoustical) location. Now we have a center that meets the definition of the word.
> As you put it... Bam.
> 
> ...


Ok, but that is really just restating your point. You brought us a wikipedia link but I'm not sure you know what it says. Proving option A) means connecting ITD with time delay. You haven't done that. I'm waiting. 



chefhow said:


> We have a car with only 6.5 drivers in the doors. Fullrange. The sound pressure level from both L and R are equalized perfectly using the gain adjustment feature. The sound is equalized so that both L, R have identical frequency response. All we have is time allignment to do (or not):
> * No such vehicle exists. There isnt a factory stereo out there that stages well out of the box, if there was then there would be no need for dsp.*
> 
> Now here is the Chefhow theory:
> ...


Please read my post again. Do you know what the parenthesis mean? Notice the 'ME' position is always to the left of the car boundaries. Please read first. 

Such a car does exist. An S2000 comes with full range speakers in the doors and it's just a two seater so no rear speakers and no sub. After EQ and level matching, with no TA id does in fact look like the first illustration. We can expand from here but,

HONESTLY, nobody is willing to prove A) or B) or C). Everyone keeps restating their theory. We are PAST that. So before anybody goes on calling this subject stupid, dumb, or simple, do notice that no one so far has tried to prove their beliefs.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Why did noone answer Erin's question

When manufacturers or anyone use a center channel where do they put it?

Do they put it in front of the steering wheel? glove box?
arm rest?


and CV you either have some crazy harry potter magic or something going on in your car or you have your RCA's backwards....

If you delay left, you move in essence move it farther away in time, so sound arrive as the same time as the right--when you do this---CENTER will move to your right

Why do people use kick panel?
Horns? and why are horns flared so the sound is directed toward the middle of the vehicle?

It is always a given that you will sit on the left hand side of the vehicle when driving in a lhd vehicle.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Mic10is said:


> Why did noone answer Erin's question
> 
> When manufacturers or anyone use a center channel where do they put it?
> 
> ...


I haven't answered Erin's question because no one on this thread can actually back up their theory. At this point we don't know what TA even does! Let alone adding more speakers in the mix... Besides, there are so many constraints when building a car, manufacturers throw speakers only where they fit, or where it's cheaper, or maybe they like symmetry. Even if we do approach this question what good is it? 

So how does delay affect the things we hear? What is about time delay that tricks our minds into shifting the center? How does our mind pick up up distance cues and width cues? That's what I'd like to know. We spent plenty of time talking about your theory, but why does it work/not work?

I may very well believe what you believe but I threw option C) in there. No one is disproving it so far so it's as good as yours.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

cvjoint said:


> ... At this point we don't know what TA even does! ...


WOW.
Thought it's pretty obvious.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> I haven't answered Erin's question because no one on this thread can actually back up their theory. At this point we don't know what TA even does! Let alone adding more speakers in the mix... Besides, there are so many constraints when building a car, manufacturers throw speakers only where they fit, or where it's cheaper, or maybe they like symmetry. Even if we do approach this question what good is it?
> 
> So how does delay affect the things we hear? What is about time delay that tricks our minds into shifting the center? How does our mind pick up up distance cues and width cues? That's what I'd like to know. We spent plenty of time talking about your theory, but why does it work/not work?
> 
> I may very well believe what you believe but I threw option C) in there. No one is disproving it so far so it's as good as yours.


I'm just wondering one thing: 
I know some people play with phase before touching T/A, Level and EQ. Do you do that? Or are your speakers wired + to + and - to -? 

^^ the above will help me understand and answer some of your questions... 

Kelvin


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

So a simple test should be set in place.. Put a tape measure across your dash or across your cabin and tape it to the driver and passenger glass/a-pillar. Put some music on the stereo and literally measure how wide your soundstage is. Divide by 2, subtract from overall width of car. That's your center point and if the judges don't like it, give them your logic and you should be golden.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

subwoofery said:


> I'm just wondering one thing:
> I know some people play with phase before touching T/A, Level and EQ. Do you do that? Or are your speakers wired + to + and - to -?
> 
> ^^ the above will help me understand and answer some of your questions...
> ...


Sure, anything that will get this thing going. I wire + to + and - to -. I sometimes flip the phase for subwoofers depending on how they are oriented. 



masswork said:


> WOW.
> Thought it's pretty obvious.


It is? Superb! We have a savior. Is your theory A) B) or C) and how can you use our knowledge of the human hearing mechanism to support your choice?


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

cvjoint said:


> It is? Superb! We have a savior. Is your theory A) B) or C) and how can you use our knowledge of the human hearing mechanism to support your choice?


This is what i've done:

All data is captured using microphone at the listening position (aka: driver)
1. Calculate the right time delay using impulse response (i use ARTA, sweep sine) for each driver. I'm using 3 way, so it's 6 different time delay numbers.
2. Match level and frequency response between L/R using 36 band parametric EQ (REW) - up to 1/6 octave. The data is spatially averaged using 6 samples around head location.

Result is center between two speaker, that is center of the dash.
A little bit to the right (i drive on the right).


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Infact this is replicateable with my Denon/Audyssey home audio too.

With stereo config put the measuring mic half a meter to the right (just like a car). Let Audyssey auto tune do the stuff.

Result is same center position relative to speaker location.
A little biased to the right.. but not directly in front.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

ncv6coupe said:


> So a simple test should be set in place.. Put a tape measure across your dash or across your cabin and tape it to the driver and passenger glass/a-pillar. Put some music on the stereo and literally measure how wide your soundstage is. Divide by 2, subtract from overall width of car. That's your center point and if the judges don't like it, give them your logic and you should be golden.


...or, any one of the thread viewers can use their super sharp hearing to put their...how should I say...finger on the center of the stage. And I say anyone because we are all literally that good. 
Disclaimer: those with fewer than 50 posts will need to listen to the Mecca of all cd's for 24 hours to train.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

masswork said:


> This is what i've done:
> 
> All data is captured using microphone at the listening position (aka: driver)
> 1. Calculate the right time delay using impulse response (i use ARTA, sweep sine) for each driver. I'm using 3 way, so it's 6 different time delay numbers.
> ...


I'm not sure why you quoted me, you're not answering my question. 

Is your theory A) B) or C) and how can you use our knowledge of the human hearing mechanism to support your choice?

Or should we let Audyssey do the thinking for us?


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

You mean this one?




> .................[L _________C_________R]
> ..........................ME
> 
> With TA we can delay the sound arriving from the left speaker. What happens when we delay it? Am I correct in thinking there are three major ideas going on in this thread?
> ...


For me:

A is before TA.
Everything in phase. Left speaker is louder than the right.
Left sound arrive earlier than right sound.
Listener sit in the left side.
Center image is in the left (in front of driver).
This is easy, no need for TA.

This one is after TA. 
.................[L _________C_________R]
..........................ME

Those [ and ] are the car boundaries, right?

We delay the left channel, so the sound shifts to the right 

Audyssey, MS8, P99RS auto tune i've tried always put center image to the center of the dash.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

masswork said:


> You mean this one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



:biggrinflip: I really wish that was true. So tell me what happens if I sit in the passenger seat in this car. Does the center realign without me touching anything? After all why is the center in front of Me to begin with???


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

No, the passenger side will hear as everything comes from the right speaker.
Depends on how much is the correct delay added though...

It's very simple... which part you don't understand?

No time delay:
We sit in the left.
Left sound is louder than right (IID).
Left sound arrive earlier than right (ITD)

That's the case with no time delay, no amplitude adjustment.
All in phase.

Where do you think the center should be on that case?

If system like that put the center image at the center dash, most likely midbass polarity is swapped for one side only.

Center is relative to the soundstage, not to the listener (not ME).
It should be the center between your left most sound, and the right most sound.
That's why people call it center of the stage, not center of ME 

Time delay will not move the image from speaker.
If you delay the left speaker, all sound panned to the left, will still be heard from there, not moving away.

Try this:
Let your frind say AAAA, note his position relative to the room.
Now don't let him change position for a while 
Let him say AAAA 3 minutes later.

Will it change his position?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> Sure, anything that will get this thing going. I wire + to + and - to -. I sometimes flip the phase for subwoofers depending on how they are oriented.


Ok, so you start with that and get an out of phase soundstage. Play with amplitude for the L side and the R side. Then play with T/A until you center your soundstage. Where is your center then? 

I just resetted my settings and have all done by ear using my Sheffield discs. I have a 3 way front stage quasi-active (passive between mid and tweeter) 
I've done the ^above^ in my car and my center is slightly left of the middle of the dash. Tried that in 2 positions, driving position and seat all the way back. Pretty much the same result. 

When playing with tweeters only, IID dominates from 2kHz up. That's why my soundstage is slightly left of center from 4kHz to 8kHz and 8kHz right in the center (due to beaming of my L tweet) 
When playing mids only, ITD and IID work together from 500Hz to 2kHz. I did not delay my L mid so that it goes left of center, I just delayed it until it sounds right. And my midrange is at the middle of the dash - well actually way above that: halfway of my windshield on up. Especially with the seats all the way back. 
When playing midbasses only, ITD dominates from 500Hz and down. I can hear if the level is different but playing with levels doesn't do anything to the soundstage. I set my midbasses relative to my subwoofer all by ear. 

T/A plays with phase. When you have your subwoofer out of phase from your midbasses, playing with T/A can move the sound of the subwoofer from the L C-pillar to the R C-pillar. As I said in a previous post, you need 2 signals for phase to happen ; L and R signal, Mid and High signal too. Delaying the only speaker playing will do nothing to the phase and nothing to the Freq response. 

I know you know all this but I thought you wanted one of us to say this all over again. 

Kelvin


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Somehow i think your picture (A) doesn't reflect what bikinpunk is saying....
I believe he's referring to center of the dash too..


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

His theory C isn't what I've been saying either. I've tried to explain but he won't get it quite honestly I don't think he really wants or cares to. You're just wasting your time, effort and energy.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Agree with this one:

*L(________C_______)R*
*............ME *

Anyway,
if the L is farther away then car's left boundary, then having C right in front of ME is technically correct too 
Well... If that's possible


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

masswork said:


> Agree with this one:
> 
> *L(________C_______)R*
> *............ME *
> ...


I dont think its possible. If you have a car that is 5' wide from A Pillar to A Pillar and the center is 2.5' from either side then you have what is described in the quote above. But if you do what has been proposed and move the CENTER to be infront of the driver, essentially 1.5' left then you have to move the left 1.5' OUTSIDE the car to the left for it to be a centered stage. like this

_____(L___C_______R)
...............D

The parenthesis is the A Pillar. How do you get sound that far out. I have heard cars with a percieved boundary a few inches outside the glass and I have actually done it in my Volvo but it was still centered across the dash. To do what they are proposing is not realistic or possible. And why would you want to have sound that goes 1.5' outside the vehicle to your left and stays inside the vehicle on your right?


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## CraigE (Jun 10, 2008)

CV... Have you, or anyone else for that matter, actually been able to do 'C' in a car ? 

I'm unclear if you are saying that you've actually done it, or if it's something you would like to do.


C)Now here is a theory I'm throwing in there cvjoint theory:
Perceived stage after TA:
L ________[______C_______________R]
..........................ME


Thanks,


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

At the risk of sounding like an idiot. I was wondering, is it possible to use reflected sound in order to make the soundstage seem significantly wider than it actually is? It certainly seems possible to me, but I keep hearing people saying that the stage can't go past the physical constraints...


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

ya know BD somebody is starting to think!.. wink wink.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Reflections are exactly that, sound bouncing OFF a surface not thru it.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

chefhow said:


> Reflections are exactly that, sound bouncing OFF a surface not thru it.


obviously it's just a ricochet, and there's nothing we can do to alter physics... But what I'm asking is this - is it possible to alter the signal in such a way that we *perceive* it as coming from beyond the surface rather than bouncing off it? Can we trick ourselves into believing this?


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Based on this thread and posts in it NOTHiNG is obvious...


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

chefhow said:


> ... I have heard cars with a percieved boundary a few inches outside the glass and I have actually done it in my Volvo but it was still centered across the dash...


This is interesting.

Care to elaborate how you done it?

Few inches outside the pillars is a good start


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

masswork said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> Care to elaborate how you done it?
> 
> Few inches outside the pillars is a good start


Very simple, MS8. It was the widest sound stage I have ever had but it was also low and shallow. Now I am right at the pillars using dash locations but I am way high and have good depth.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

bd5034 yes
read my previous post abut stand next to a wall and closing eyes and having a complete soundstage in fromt of me.. open your eyes and you would say no way possible becasue my shoulder was 3" away form a wall in a 25" x 60" room.. too many people listen with their eyes..I trust my blind piano player at church!


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

tnbubba said:


> bd5034 yes
> read my previous post abut stand next to a wall and closing eyes and having a complete soundstage in fromt of me.. open your eyes and you would say no way possible becasue my shoulder was 3" away form a wall in a 25" x 60" room.. too many people listen with their eyes..I trust my blind piano player at church!


I assume you mean three feet away from a wall in a twenty five foot by sixty foot room? A room that's 25" wide wouldn't even fit me. lol. Anyway, that seems like a really extreme example to me, but what do I know.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

no 3" away from a room yes appx 25' x 60'

i can tell you this it was in 2000 or 2001(r&D at the time) and I still don't think you can get the processing power in a car required to do this.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

tnbubba said:


> no 3" away from a room yes appx 25' x 60'
> 
> i can tell you this it was in 2000 or 2001(r&D at the time) and *I still don't think you can get the processing power in a car required to do this.*



we are talking about a vehicle. you have continued to talk about super top secret processing from Sector 7, which is nowhere near relevant to the discussion.

and Now with the above quote its clear that you even dont believe that it is possible given today's processing.

so basically you've wasted alot of bandwidth and time with your ramblings.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> we are talking about a vehicle. you have continued to talk about super top secret processing from Sector 7, which is nowhere near relevant to the discussion.
> 
> and Now with the above quote its clear that you even dont believe that it is possible given today's processing.
> 
> so basically you've wasted alot of bandwidth and time with your ramblings.


what about what I asked though? I made a little picture to illustrate what I meant. Using a reflection, is it possible to create the perception that the stage is significantly wider than the physical width? I mean is it possible in a vehicle, and using currently available processing.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

look azzmunch ...rooms with walls are the same as cars with doors..
I did not say it is not possible.. just probably not practical. but obviously some SQ and competitors can get the soundstage outside the left side of the car, so it is possible now!!!

I just want people to close their eyes, open their minds and not listen with their eyes..
and I bet in 5-10 yrs we will have some high dollar processers to do alot more than what we have now.. the reason we don't have it now is the free market.. nobody will pay for it.

no it's not some super secret stuff..all major players in the audio industry are working on the stuff.. and have been for 20 yrs.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

bd5034 said:


> what about what I asked though? I made a little picture to illustrate what I meant. Using a reflection, is it possible to create the perception that the stage is significantly wider than the physical width? I mean is it possible in a vehicle, and using currently available processing.


yes it can be done without using reflections. many have done it simply using kick panels with alot of time adjusting and finalizing angles.
using reflections gets into a whole other area of possible problems like comb filtering etc...


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

tnbubba said:


> look azzmunch ...rooms with walls are the same as cars with doors..
> I did not say it is not possible.. just probably not practical. but obviously some SQ and competitors can get the soundstage outside the left side of the car, so it is possible now!!!
> 
> I just want people to close their eyes, open their minds and not listen with their eyes..
> ...


Yes its possible to get the soundstage outside the physical boundaries of the vehicle, but the center stills stays equidistant between the left and right boundaries.

But I dont know of a single person who can push the stage 3 to 4 feet outside the left stage but have the right stage remain at or inside the physical boundaries of the vehicle, so the center is directly in front of the listener.
furthermore, I cant think of any reason why anyone would want a completely asymmetrical sound stage.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> yes it can be done without using reflections. many have done it simply using kick panels with alot of time adjusting and finalizing angles.
> using reflections gets into a whole other area of possible problems like comb filtering etc...


yikes. Do you think that in the future, processing will be able to tackle that? I am trying to get a feel for what's possible versus what's simply not. At this point, it has become a learning exercise for me.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

bd5034 said:


> yikes. Do you think that in the future, processing will be able to tackle that? I am trying to get a feel for what's possible versus what's simply not. At this point, it has become a learning exercise for me.


Put booms on the car and hang the left speaker 4 ft to the left of the car and give it gobs of power. It should help with the center in front of you.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

chefhow said:


> Put booms on the car and hang the left speaker 4 ft to the left of the car and give it gobs of power. It should help with the center in front of you.



lol. yeah, until I go through a toll booth and it rips off.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

tnbubba said:


> bd5034 yes
> read my previous post abut stand next to a wall and closing eyes and having a complete soundstage in fromt of me.. open your eyes and you would say no way possible becasue my shoulder was 3" away form a wall in a 25" x 60" room.. too many people listen with their eyes..I trust my blind piano player at church!


Even if what you said was true, it is irrelevant in this discussion coz in a car you're sitting so close to the speaker and because, in your example, the speakers are _NOT_ inside the walls like car speakers... 

And from reading your posts and since you're not answering my question, I can only assume that you have a squeeched left soundstage with a center stage in front of you: 
(L__C________R)
......ME

Kelvin


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> obviously it's just a ricochet, and there's nothing we can do to alter physics... But what I'm asking is this - is it possible to alter the signal in such a way that we *perceive* it as coming from beyond the surface rather than bouncing off it? Can we trick ourselves into believing this?


The problem is you typically hear direct and reflected sound. To make it appear as if it were coming from beyond the reflective boundary you have to eliminate the direct sound (either with processing or physical devices - waveguides).

Waveguides
The problem is in a car environment (which is very small - comparatively) you can't build speakers with high directivity through the entire audio spectrum (not physically enough room).

Electronic correction with speaker arrays
IMO - just not worth the time and expense. I am not aware of any automotive processor our there that will eliminate the direct sound. You would likely have to build something with a CAR PC. The issue there is without at least some physical directivit control the direct sound is typically of higher amplitude and therefore hard to attenuate enough so as not to add the the imaging. Also, you have precendent effect working against you as the direct wave arrives first. Again IMO just a bridge too far.


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

SSSnake said:


> The problem is you typically hear direct and reflected sound. To make it appear as if it were coming from beyond the reflective boundary you have to eliminate the direct sound (either with processing or physical devices - waveguides).
> 
> Waveguides
> The problem is in a car environment (which is very small - comparatively) you can't build speakers with high directivity through the entire audio spectrum (not physically enough room).
> ...


What if we were to target the driver's side speaker so it's directly on axis with the driver's side window. Make the whole damn thing reflect. Just a crazy idea - thoughts? Remember, I don't have many years of experience doing this, so to me these are all novel ideas. I am trying to get creative.


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## dkh (Apr 2, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> Is that what it does for sure? I think both the Audisson and JBL units time align everything in reference to where you put the mic. If you put the mic in the driver's seat then all speakers are perceived equidistant in reference to the driver aka center of the steering wheel.


Have you tried this or is this another theory?

I have heard an audison 'setup system' and the centre of the perceived stage was the centre of the dash not the steering wheel.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

Before we get into methods of extending the soundstage, I think we should still settle what *center* is first.

It IS a point that is an equal distance from both ends.

That means that for MOST people, center in car audio would be center of the dashboard, centered between the two pillars of the car.

That means that IF you wanted center in front of you, your left stage would need to somehow extend approximately 4' beyond the pillar and the right side would need to end at the pillar.

Other than that, if the stage does end at the pillars, but the center information is in front of the driver, the "center" is not in the correct location. You as a listener can be happy with it that way, it can be your preference, but it ISN'T center.

Can we agree on that much?

BTW: Why is necessary to argue that a wrong opinion is, in fact, the right answer? Somebody can prefer something that is wrong, and there is no problem with that, but it doesn't make it right. I think most of this thread is akin to a DB guy arguing that he is accurately reproducing the music. He may PREFER to listen to music with an exaggerated bottom end, but it DOESN'T make it accurate reproduction.


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

bd5034 said:


> What if we were to target the driver's side speaker so it's directly on axis with the driver's side window. Make the whole damn thing reflect. Just a crazy idea - thoughts? Remember, I don't have many years of experience doing this, so to me these are all novel ideas. I am trying to get creative.


It is surely good you are at least thinking of options, but look at the picture you drew. Lets say that you managed to set up the speakers to where you only heard the reflected sound (not likely) and the reflection did not result in comb filtering (again not likely), the reflected sound is still only going to move as far away as the reflection (the glass) so you may gain an inch or two. The time from the reflection to your ear would be the same as the arrival time of the speaker being aimed at the listener so no width would be added. You would also have to compensate for the arrival time difference on the right side so both sides are in phase with each other for stereo reproduction.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Actually the last post is incorrect. The speaker should appear to beyond the boundary by the distance it is away from the boundary. YOu could gain significant size for the stage with something like center mounted drivers firing at the side glass but again this is with a HIGHLY directional speaker system where you only hear the reflected signal (or at least have a VERY attenuated direct signal).

In practice the direct sound is likely going to dominate any attempts to widen the stage this way (except possibly for high freqs).


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

pionkej said:


> Before we get into methods of extending the soundstage, I think we should still settle what *center* is first.
> 
> It IS a point that is an equal distance from both ends.
> 
> ...


*Completely agree*

Now waiting for extending the sound stage


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

I am thinking in order to keep this thread on track, we should make a new thread for extending the soundstage? Who wants to start it?


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## pionkej (Feb 29, 2008)

SSSnake said:


> Actually the last post is incorrect. The speaker should appear to beyond the boundary by the distance it is away from the boundary. YOu could gain significant size for the stage with something like center mounted drivers firing at the side glass but again this is with a HIGHLY directional speaker system where you only hear the reflected signal (or at least have a VERY attenuated direct signal).
> 
> In practice the direct sound is likely going to dominate any attempts to widen the stage this way (except possibly for high freqs).


You're right. I was trying to type that up before I headed out from work for the day. The parts where I still said (not likely) hold true though.

This is why I mentioned the idea of acoustic crosstalk. I don't want to get too deep into it since I don't personally have experience with it, but from what I've read, it can help widen the stage and I plan to try it out in my next build (which I'm currently working on).

I believe it falls in line with ambiaphonics (sp?) that Durwood mentioned several years ago in the "hey werewolf" thread Ge0 started about l-r/bandpassed/delayed/attenuated rear-fill. Pulling all that from memory except for the thread it came from. I also think lycan talks about it in his "midbass array revisited" thread.


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## ncv6coupe (Oct 25, 2009)

Hey buddy, we been through this before maybe 5 months ago, search for the thread named "Stage Width" the recipe for rediculous extension beyond car boundaries is layed out in crayon there. Enjoy 

*warning* it is very hard to keep things sized in perspective when trying for 10 foot stage width.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

subwoofery said:


> Ok, so you start with that and get an out of phase soundstage. Play with amplitude for the L side and the R side. Then play with T/A until you center your soundstage. Where is your center then?
> 
> I just resetted my settings and have all done by ear using my Sheffield discs. I have a 3 way front stage quasi-active (passive between mid and tweeter)
> I've done the ^above^ in my car and my center is slightly left of the middle of the dash. Tried that in 2 positions, driving position and seat all the way back. Pretty much the same result.
> ...


The location of the center depends on how TA is implemented of course. You extended the example to multiple drivers, so now you have the ability to TA each side yet keep the center of the soundstage in center dash after adding a tweeter. Anyway, I'm with you on the phase argument, but let's think about one sound source and two listening devices (our ears). There will be a phase difference between the sound that arrives at the left ear vs. the one that arrives at the right. 

I thought your previous bit about turning the right speaker off is an ideal way to start. Here's what I came up with.

Our theories A),B),C) differ in that the stage width varies.
-->Therefore, lets talk about width. In the figure below, quadrant 1, labeled q1 in the fig., is where we can place the left speaker. Any location in q1 can be fully described by the azimuth angle and the distance to the speaker. Figure 1 depicts azimuth, 0 degrees (0°) azimuth being directly in front of the listener, 90° to the right and so on. 










-->How do we know the azimuth of the speaker as it plays? *The interaural time difference (or ITD)* is the difference in arrival time of a sound between our ears. So look at speaker S1. This one is dead center. The arrival time for a location like s1 is equal to both ears. We therefore perceive the speaker in the center and it is. Sound from speaker S2 will reach our left ear first. The brain is really good at figuring out these differences.

-->If we delay this speaker by say 5 seconds, is TA going to trick our brain into thinking the azimuth has changed? The answer is no, the arrival time will be the same. Consequently any speaker location will have an azimuth reading that will not depend on time alignment. 

-->Secondly we may care about distance. How does our brain figure out distance? Wiki says a few things:
* * Sound spectrum
* Reflections*

Fig. 2 for distance:








High frequencies have a harder time cutting through air to reach our ears, this is the first category. For typical sounds, a higher absorption of high frequency denotes a greater distance. 
Reflections have been covered already, but to sum up we are interested in the relative proportion between direct sound and reflected sound. 
--> Does TA affect any of these two? Well no, again we are stuck with the same reflections and the same path-length (equal amount of air to go through). 


We can therefore sum of our findings for a full-range car setup with equalized and level matched speakers when the R speaker is not turned on. 

TA has no effect on ITD, reflections, or the sound spectrum as wiki calls it. In turn these are the things that would give our brain an idea of where the speaker is located in the top left quadrant. Therefore TA has no effect on the perception of the left speaker location by itself. 

Of course, this exercise is a fairly simple one to try but now we have some knowledge about why it is that we hear the things we hear. 

Unfortunately, it does not yet prove any of the theories, but now someone can turn on the right speaker and tell us what TA might do in that situation.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

CraigE said:


> CV... Have you, or anyone else for that matter, actually been able to do 'C' in a car ?
> 
> I'm unclear if you are saying that you've actually done it, or if it's something you would like to do.
> 
> ...


How would we know that theory C) is true? My favorite way to go about things is to hypothesize and use relevant research to make it or break it. I'm ok with using ears for lots of simple things, like the one speaker experiment above, but when it comes to something like stereo images in the car I think we are at a loss as to what we hear. Better to use the decades of research available out there, we are in the information age. As time permits I like to indulge in learning when I come on DIYMA. 

I am fairly sure lots are tuning for steering wheel center but they THINK they tune for center dash. Then they go on telling everyone on the forum how solid their center dash image is. How useful is that?


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

ncv6coupe said:


> Hey buddy, we been through this before maybe 5 months ago, search for the thread named "Stage Width" the recipe for rediculous extension beyond car boundaries is layed out in crayon there. Enjoy
> 
> *warning* it is very hard to keep things sized in perspective when trying for 10 foot stage width.


I did search for a stage width thread and came up empty handed.

Now, I'm the kind of guy who looks for ketchup in the fridge, but can't find it even when it's right in front of me - so maybe I'm just not seeing it.... Would you be so kind as to link it so I can get in there?


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## sqoverspl (Aug 17, 2009)

bd5034 said:


> I did search for a stage width thread and came up empty handed.
> 
> Now, I'm the kind of guy who looks for ketchup in the fridge, but can't find it even when it's right in front of me - so maybe I'm just not seeing it.... Would you be so kind as to link it so I can get in there?


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/90341-stage-width.html


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

sqoverspl said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-sq-forum-technical-advanced/90341-stage-width.html


thank you.


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## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

Just a short commit at the 2010 meca Pa. state finals 3 judges listened to my truck. One judge is a sound engineer and one of the most respected sq judges in meca another judge was a multiple Meca world champ and the last judge was Mic. Mic judged my center to be far left and gave me the lowest score I had all year. The other 2 judges gave me perfect Center LC RC ect. In fact they scored my car higher than they did Mic's that was competing un-opposed.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

asota said:


> Just a short commit at the 2010 meca Pa. state finals 3 judges listened to my truck. One judge is a sound engineer and one of the most respected sq judges in meca another judge was a multiple Meca world champ and the last judge was Mic. Mic judged my center to be far left and gave me the lowest score I had all year. The other 2 judges gave me perfect Center LC RC ect. In fact they scored my car higher than they did Mic's that was competing un-opposed.


If you want to make this personal, at least sign your real name.
But I have an idea who you are, based on your comments. And When I judge I could care less who anyone is, I judge things for what it is when its there.

your center was not stable. It was huge and shifted with frequencies, primarily to the left. In fact majority of the time center was over the steering wheel for me. Occasionally it would drift into the center but it was never stable.
Read the scoring guidelines. a perfect score means that center is located in the center and is FOCUSED.
You have no TA, just old school analog processing. so realistically there is only so much you are going to be able to do to stabilize the image focus , size and proportion.
you also may want to consider that I didnt know you, never seen you before, whereas the other judges knew you and had a rapport with you. I judged it for what it was when you you were done playing with it, which you were tweaking up until the time I got in to judge.
I have no idea if you made any adjustments in between that time and when Chris or Tom got in next.


My car was just there for points and in mid rebuild.
So If you want to think yours is that much better, feel free--my MECA Championship would say otherwise, as would my IASCA World Title, Spring Break National Wins, Elite Summer National wins, top 10 finishes in top 30 SQ only rounds over the span of several years....would say otherwise.

Also, at the PA show, my car could only be judged twice, you had 3 judges.
so lets at least compare apples to apples.

and I was scored higher than your truck--i just checked the results--and that was w my car in rebuild mode just playing music so it could be judged


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

I'm in agreement with Mic...if you have no time alignment it is very difficult to get a focused center image. yes, the image will center on some tracks, but will drag to the left on others based on frequency. Play "I'm your man" and let us know what you hear. Male vocals will present this problem more than others. just my .02


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## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

I wasn't making anything personal just thought it a bit strange I read this entire thread and you seem to be the number 1 expert on this subject. No i didn't make any adjustments between judges but there judgements certainly differed from yours. You are right my center is the weakest point of my system I have made some changes to improve it. If my ms allows me i hope to get out several times this year. I still will not use T A but i did raise my overall cost spent on system to $700. ASOTA if you ever ran PPI you know what that is.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Im not an expert by any means at anything. But I have been around a long time, competed successfully in multiple organizations and built numerous cars over the years that have done very well. I have also had a ton of great mentors like Eric Stevens, Matt Borgardt, Jeff Smith, Chris/Melissa Owens, Steve Head just to name a few.

I also make sure I know and understand the rules of each organization and how to score each section appropriately. I use the whole score sheet and points when I judge.

If youve made improvements to your system thats awesome. maybe I'll get to judge it again one day or at least get to hear it


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

You should sign up to be a judge yourself. Next time you can criple his score 

Who's got the center now biatch!


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> You should sign up to be a judge yourself. Next time you can criple his score
> 
> Who's got the center now biatch!


I do a good enough job crippling my own score w last minute second guessing and tweaks:laugh:

I actually need intervention or distraction from another car to keep me from tinkering with mine


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## asota (Feb 7, 2011)

I have heard many great sounding cars over the years in fact the best sounding car i ever heard was put together by a friend of mine and had no TA at all in it. It won several IASCA world finals. Last year i heard a car that won best of show at a event and it was one of the worst sounding (sq comp.) cars i have heard the subs were sloppy and well behind the mid bass was, well what mid-bass the snares sounded like rubber drum sticks hitting paper and the tweets just hissed now and then. But the center was pinpoint RC LC pinpoint and the judge gave this car the highest score he gave all year.It wasn't you Mic lol. A focused center does sound good, but a system with the subs tight and high in front of you, mid-bass that take your breath away, snares that snap just like the drum is there with you, and tweeters that make cymbals sound like cymbals now thats what sounds great.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> I do a good enough job crippling my own score w last minute second guessing and tweaks:laugh:
> 
> I actually need intervention or distraction from another car to keep me from tinkering with mine



It's all true, my car is one of his distractions and I am part of his intervention.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

From Ohio and no TA...Brian Morris?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Someone brought that thread up in another thread - since I was bored, I read it all again. 
Wondering if some have changed their point of view since their last post...  

Kelvin


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## Wheres The Butta (Jun 6, 2009)

My understanding has grown quite a bit. After competing and listening to many other competitor's cars, I understand why the center has to be in the center of the windshield, and not in front of the driver

The material wouldn't be presented properly if the center was in front of the driver. The image size and placement would be completely off.


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## stereo_luver (Oct 30, 2007)

Center​
Chuck


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