# I want more midbass



## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Currently running utopia be 2 way components. Doors are sealed. Sound is good but I'd like more thump at 80hz

What I'm thinking of doing is removing the 6.5 utopia mid, adding a pair of 3 inch on the dash and squeezing some 8"s into the doors.
I've got plenty of power. Around 380w per channel rms available.

So, what I'm looking good for is a relatively shallow 8"mid bass. I'd like to keep it under $600 for the pair but will spend more to get quality comparable to the utopias.


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## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

How shallow do you need? I've never really seen a shallow dedicated 8" midbass before. Shallow to me is a driver requiring less than 3" of mounting depth. Even the highly regarded JL ZR800-CW requires a bit over 3-3/8". Those wouldn't even fit in my doors without building out the doors. You could try using shallow 8" subs like the Pioneers or the Earthquake SWS8's. Those require less than 3" of mounting depth. How high do you plan on running them?


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## gu9cci (Mar 28, 2011)

Get the Scanspeak 18WU and you will be more then happy.
I don't use my sub anymore very often


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

theres also the possibility that the time alinement between subs and midbass isn't all that great and that could be losing you lots of impact up near and above the crossover point. those eutopia mids are great for midbass from the few times I've heard them.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

gu9cci said:


> Get the Scanspeak 18WU and you will be more then happy.
> I don't use my sub anymore very often




Are you using the paper or aluminum cone version? How did you install them?


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## gu9cci (Mar 28, 2011)

Paper


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

gu9cci said:


> Paper




Also have a set at home waiting for the install...


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## gu9cci (Mar 28, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Also have a set at home waiting for the install...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You will love it!!!!


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

gu9cci said:


> You will love it!!!!




Hoping so my brother has the Revelators and they perform very well..

How did you install them?


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

It's not an alignment issue. They are timed perfectly. The utopias don't do much at 80hz in my truck. No mid bass I've used has. I think it may be bacuaee my doors are huge inside. From 120 or so to almost 400hz a have insane amounts of output but below 100 is hardly anything. I have to cut 200-300 almost 12db. It rolls off hard at 80hz naturally. My sub also sounds like booty played that high. It doesn't sound bad but I want much more clarity and authority in this area. But I want it from the front.
I don't like loud sub bass. 

Ive thought about just getting a better sub first. Something with really low distortion.
I'm just weighing options right now.
The w3 stealth box isn't junk but the focals are so detailed they make it sound like ass in comparison. Would you recommend a specific sub?


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Looking at those scans they have box recommendations. I definitely do not want to have to guild enclosures. How do they do in IB? Also they look like they could play up to 2.5kz? Is that so? If so they could mate to the utopia BE tweeter.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

I do think those jl stealth boxes are a huge and crappy compromise for space and output, very boomy and a bit slow sounding..never liked a single one of those. people don't realize that the subs ability to not wash out the sound at low frequencies is actually pretty important..many say "a sub is a sub" which is simply untrue.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Lycancatt said:


> I do think those jl stealth boxes are a huge and crappy compromise for space and output, very boomy and a bit slow sounding..never liked a single one of those. people don't realize that the subs ability to not wash out the sound at low frequencies is actually pretty important..many say "a sub is a sub" which is simply untrue.


You're and I very much agree about this and sube in general. 
I just went out and did a little test. I turned the sub up much more than I normally do and it gives me everything I want. It just sounds like crap doing it.
Boomy and slow is exactly want it is.
I've been researching subs that are articulate but everyone is so damned bias you can never really get straight answers from people. Everyone thinks what they have is the best and most people on the net seem to judge a subs performance based on how loud it gets.
This area in my system is the weak spot. 
I love the utopias and the BE tweeter is one of the best I've ever heard. Definitely the best I've owned. 
If I could get this bass issue under control I'd me more than satisfied with my system.
My issue is subs are EXPENSIVE. I want an articulate sub that can play high, dig low and sound great doing it up to 125db or so.
Natural sounding is priority but with all the electronic music I listen to it need it to be able to get aggressive as well.
If there is a sub out there I wish someone would just tell me what to buy. I've used the jl w3, w6v2 12's, w7 8s and several others. The upper end subs sounded much better than the w3 but still not as clear as I'd like.


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

FROG GB60


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

ML 1800.3 


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## Hammer1 (Jan 30, 2011)

analogrocker said:


> How shallow do you need? I've never really seen a shallow dedicated 8" midbass before. Shallow to me is a driver requiring less than 3" of mounting depth. Even the highly regarded JL ZR800-CW requires a bit over 3-3/8". Those wouldn't even fit in my doors without building out the doors. You could try using shallow 8" subs like the Pioneers or the Earthquake SWS8's. Those require less than 3" of mounting depth. How high do you plan on running them?


Look for a pair of the Illusion Carbon 8s they have a mounting depth of just under 2 1/4


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Anyone ever put a 5 or 6 inch sub in the center of the dash up top?


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## ninetysix (Dec 6, 2009)

I've got the aluminium cone 18wu, they are pretty nice. On my woofer tester they show a QTS of 0.59 despite scan listing them as 0.32 or so, so definitely suitable for IB. Mounting depth is nearly 4" though, hardly shallow.

I don't run them in the doors though, I've just never been able to get anything to sound good, too many rattles from the window winder/motor assembly so they are in ported boxes on the floor, about 0.3ft³ tuned to 50Hz with 80hz LR4 hpf and lined with dense poly acoustic tiles (the kind they put in the walls of TV & radio studios) which helped tame the resonance. Running around 200 watts a side and they need massive eq cuts from 60Hz to about 150, and I cross them to a scan 12m at 250hz. They can play lower but my subs don't need them to.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

ninetysix said:


> I've got the aluminium cone 18wu, they are pretty nice. On my woofer tester they show a QTS of 0.59 despite scan listing them as 0.32 or so, so definitely suitable for IB. Mounting depth is nearly 4" though, hardly shallow.
> 
> I don't run them in the doors though, I've just never been able to get anything to sound good, too many rattles from the window winder/motor assembly so they are in ported boxes on the floor, about 0.3ft³ tuned to 50Hz with 80hz LR4 hpf and lined with dense poly acoustic tiles (the kind they put in the walls of TV & radio studios) which helped tame the resonance. Running around 200 watts a side and they need massive eq cuts from 60Hz to about 150, and I cross them to a scan 12m at 250hz. They can play lower but my subs don't need them to.


I Wonder If You Need Those Eq Cuts Due To The box you're using.
4 inches will fit easily into my doors. My doors don't rattle. I went overkill with damping and sealing.

How high do they play? My tweets are crossed at 2.5kz with heavy eq cuts from 800hz to around 4kz. I'd love to be able to turn the subs off. How low do you think they'd play in IB?


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Check here for a review ofthe18wu's, among others. 
Fwiw, the gb60's were not available when this test was done, and would likely place very well in this mix. I'm looking forward to trying mine 

http://www.phass.com/Resources/Niebur_DIYMA%20MidWoofer%20Test%20Results.pdf


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## gu9cci (Mar 28, 2011)

My play to 45hz 24db no problem now


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## EmptyKim (Jun 17, 2010)

Is an up front sub an option?


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## gu9cci (Mar 28, 2011)

Elektra said:


> Hoping so my brother has the Revelators and they perform very well..
> 
> How did you install them?
> 
> ...


In door


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

My issue is a common one for door speakers.
I'm worried that adding a bigger midbass won't help as much as I'd like. 
If I fade left or right it gets a lot better. With the time alignment and fader center there is a notable drop in bass. No my speakers aren't out of phase. 
I wonder if changing the angle of the speakers would help. I could angle them in the doors a good 20 degrees.


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## GEM592 (Jun 19, 2015)

I vote for replacing JL sub with something that will play higher better and keep the utopias.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

GEM592 said:


> I vote for replacing JL sub with something that will play higher better and keep the utopias.


That will happen but what?


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## gu9cci (Mar 28, 2011)

GEM592 said:


> I vote for replacing JL sub with something that will play higher better and keep the utopias.


Aliante would make it happen


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## GEM592 (Jun 19, 2015)

Drop11 said:


> That will happen but what?


Oh many choices would improve it I think. Let me read what you got closer ...

Budget for your low end?


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Price is pretty irrelevant.


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## GEM592 (Jun 19, 2015)

I can't find much info on what you have installed already ...

Since you already have focal (and based on what you said about bass preferences/goals) I wouldn't rule out focal. For example, there are reliable dealers from Italy on Ebay that will ship K2 power woofers authorized with warranty for about half typical US retail. They sound good.

But there are many other options you could try that are also good. If it were me, I would look for the best price from a reliable dealer I could find and try it out. Most accept returns.


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## GEM592 (Jun 19, 2015)

Drop11 said:


> Price is pretty irrelevant.


Oh well then fire away.

Focal, Illusion, Morel, Dyn, Sinfoni, Hertz, Scan, lots more, ... you in the end will have to try and evaluate your results.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

Drop11 said:


> My issue is a common one for door speakers.
> I'm worried that adding a bigger midbass won't help as much as I'd like.
> If I fade left or right it gets a lot better. With the time alignment and fader center there is a notable drop in bass. No my speakers aren't out of phase.
> I wonder if changing the angle of the speakers would help. I could angle them in the doors a good 20 degrees.


that's not a common problem i run into.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

It's happened to me in every car I've owned in the last 15 years. All trucks. I get a huge boost in 180-350hz or so and not much at all going on below that. Everything is in phase, time aligned and eqEd and crossed over anywhere between 50 and 80hz. Doors are sealed as good as humanly possible.
Almost every set of speakers I've used in that time span have been focal. The k2ps did best.
Don't get me wrong. I have bass from them but it's a bit more if I have the fader far left or right. 
I always just assumed it was really big doors or phase issues. Adding power always seems to help but I've got a focal amp doing up to 380w rms into an 80 rms speakers system. 
I've only heard one truck with really good door mounted midbass. He was using focal 6x9s and it had tons of solid bass.


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## ninetysix (Dec 6, 2009)

Drop11 said:


> I Wonder If You Need Those Eq Cuts Due To The box you're using.
> 4 inches will fit easily into my doors. My doors don't rattle. I went overkill with damping and sealing.
> 
> How high do they play? My tweets are crossed at 2.5kz with heavy eq cuts from 800hz to around 4kz. I'd love to be able to turn the subs off. How low do you think they'd play in IB?


It's absolutely the box that's causing it, it's a lot smaller than recommended. With the port plugged it has a QTC of 0.9 with the poly lining, I added a few handfuls of lighter poly batting being very careful not to obstruct the port and sealed qtc is around 0.8 now. The port isn't really there for more output, though it gives plenty - too much. I did it to reduce xmax and distortion near crossover frequency, and it does that very well and I'm sure many would frown upon such a setup but to my ears it's a no brainer vs the same box sealed 

The (real, not manufacturer specified) QTS of the driver shows that it's fine for IB, and being aluminum it's not going to turn to mush from moisture like the paper version might.

I never really listened to it too much with a higher low pass as I was getting some port resonance around 800hz, plus I need my 12m's to play as low as possible to get good imaging as the drivers side woofer is basically directly in front of you not to your side. But I remember doing a quick measurement with the sealed box with no low pass and even tho it was in a car, I'd say you could trust the manufacturers FR chart. I believe people have used this driver in a 2way setup in HiFi setups with good results.


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Drop11 said:


> If I fade left or right it gets a lot better.
> 
> No my speakers aren't out of phase.


Sorry brother, but these two statements contridict each other.

Like, big time......


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

It doesn't measure less. It just sounds like it's less. I attribute it to the depth and clarity of the Soundstage. Sweeps sound loud and clear through the spectrum. 
Let's not get confused. I don't have any real "issue".
My thread title says it all. I want MORE. 
I want a heavier front end before adding subs.


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## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

Multiple drivers?

There's always the issue of a 80hz wave being 14 feet long, try standing outside the vehicle maybe?


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

That doesn't do me much good in the car lol. 
I just want that heavy thump I'm front of me. 
So. I can get bigger mids, a sub that plays clearer higher or do an upfront sub.
Or all 3 .


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

Drop11 said:


> It doesn't measure less. It just sounds like it's less. I attribute it to the depth and clarity of the Soundstage. Sweeps sound loud and clear through the spectrum.
> Let's not get confused. I don't have any real "issue".
> My thread title says it all. I want MORE.
> I want a heavier front end before adding subs.


Had the same issue. The JLzr800cw in my signature solved the issue. Plays solid down to 40hz if I want it to. I often times turn my subs off and enjor it that way. Erin did a great review at medley musings. Check it out.

http://medleysmusings.com/zr800cw/


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## ninetysix (Dec 6, 2009)

I would go with the JL 8s if you can fit them no question. You're going to need a 3 or 4" (or a GB25) driver between the 8s and a tweeter though


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Vote JL ZR800CW, OR consider making sealed or ported pods for your very expensive existing speakers.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

As a followup..the zr800 is not that deep, fits your under $600 needs and will get you great midbass with well under that 368 per channel mark.I would not suggest running that much power to them without understanding the risks involved and how to do it properly. I have 300 per channel available but dont run it because quite frankly, I dont need to. My midbass is strong as can be with 150 watts per mid. If I were to run the subs with 300 watts, it would be with no gain overlap at all and with a higher xover frequency. 

Hell...now i am talking myself into trying it.....lol

Really though...my zr800s are keeping up with dual 15's with2400 watts running them and no problem at all. That has gotta say something. And my W15 gti's aint no weak subs either....knowwhatimsayin!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Drop11 said:


> It doesn't measure less. It just sounds like it's less. I attribute it to the depth and clarity of the Soundstage. Sweeps sound loud and clear through the spectrum.
> Let's not get confused. I don't have any real "issue".
> My thread title says it all. I want MORE.
> I want a heavier front end before adding subs.


For almost all humans, the biggest obstacle to resolving an issue is accepting that there is a problem in the first place. Admitting to that problem and that too on a public forum, is an absolute no no. As humans this default tendency is built into our DNA and is one of the biggest inhibitors to learning, for _*all*_ of us. 

80hz is bloat not thump and in every car I've tuned, thanks to cabin gain 80hz is always a frequency I cut a lot. The thump is lower at 50-60hz, the energy of the mid bass is at 100hz and the snap is from the harmonics in the mid range. If you need more mid bass in your car it's 99.999% a tune issue, but that brings us back to admitting there is a problem.

We get at least 2-3 threads every week on, 'how my tune is fine and it sounds great and the staging and imaging is brilliant, but I want more mid bass and so I am looking to upgrade my speakers'. Tuning issues all of them. In all these threads the OP refuses to acknowledge that tuning could be an issue. Others in this thread have tried to politely point you in this direction, but your response is no, my tune is fine backed up with some mumbo jumbo. It get really tiring for those of us who are regulars here.

Your real issues are in the time and response domain. Post up some measurements and I'm betting the real issues can be better identified and resolved. I not trying to put you down, that is not my intention at all, I'm just trying to get you to be more open towards learning.


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## almatias (Nov 16, 2012)

gu9cci said:


> Get the Scanspeak 18WU and you will be more then happy.
> I don't use my sub anymore very often



+1 :legal:


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## Ericm1205 (May 10, 2016)

i got the focal flax 3 ways in my charger. i sound deadened the crap out of my doors and try to seal it as much as possible and they have some impressive midbass, even without a tune, which is coming up.
these 6.5's play and dig better than some 10's i heard.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I would probably focus on getting a sub and enclosure that met your needs and can play higher first. Then look at upgrading the midbass if this doesn't solve the issue. There are several good options available for low distortion subs that can play fairly high and will allow you to raise your midbass crossover. 

What vehicle are we talking about here? What size subwoofer is in your JL Stealthbox and what is the volume of the stealthbox? There may be a subwoofer that could be a "drop in" replacement to minimize the impact of the change.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

sqnut said:


> Drop11 said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't measure less. It just sounds like it's less. I attribute it to the depth and clarity of the Soundstage. Sweeps sound loud and clear through the spectrum.
> ...



Look, I've read all the same threads you have. 
Yes. I can cut from 250hz to 1.5or 2kHz
And get more midbass than I need for a 100db sq tune easily.

If I wanted to stop there great everything would be dandy.

But I don't. 

This is my line of thought.

Right now I'm attenuating EVERYTHING above 160hz. The midrange section is easily cut by a good 8db. Subs generally have no issue getting much louder than components.

Why do all this attenuation? My system naturally wants to get loud everywhere except 70ish -100hz. This area is my systems weak point. I can't get loud in this region without 1 of 2 things happening due to the mechanical limitations of the components. 1 I can cross the sub higher. My sub sounds like dog poop crossed that high. 2 adding bigger midbass or at least a 6.5 with better Xmas.

Adding a speaker better suited for that roll will give me more bass upfront playing lower, another 8 to 10 db of volume maintaining the tune and allow me to cross my subs lower which to me is always a huge plus. 

I can do this one of 3 ways. A small upfront sub, better midbass drivers or a more articulate sub. I wouldn't call the w3 trash but it's pretty funky. 

Hell even if I just listen to live music or reference tracks it would really be an issue but I don't. The majority of what I listen to is obscure electronic and most of that has a ton of information between 50hz and 100hz. 
My sub WILL NOT play this well even when listening at lower volumes. It sounds hollow and booms. Changing the sub over to a sealed enclosure helps but the sub still sounds like boots. Crossing the sub lower, around 60hz the sub becomes usable in an sq sense. Crossing my mids that low and I lose output to the tune of around 6 dB due too the mechanical limitations of the mid driver.

I appreciate you trying to help I really do but tuning help isn't what I'm after in this thread. I'm looking for the easiest most efficient way to achieve my goal.


So all that being said I'm looking for the easiest way to get what I'm after. If you have insite on whether I should go the midbass or sub route, and which one would be more effective with the least amount of hassle concerning install it would be beyond appreciated as I don't really want to have to buy twice right now.


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## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

Maybe I'm not seeing it, but what is the vehicle you are working with here? I still go back to my multiple midbass thought.

I seem to remember reading something Patrick Bateman was discussing that by using multiple drivers it can help to overcome the nulls. Even something about multiple driver locations. My memory is not my best function. Search might be though.


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## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

I heard a guy roll up in a field one day, 6 x 8's and 4 horns all sealed up in the doors. It was an SPL show but I was more impressed hearing this car pull up.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

It's a crew cab f150. With the trimming and baffles in the doors I can easily fit an 8", 4"deep.

It's not really a null I'm the response. Its more that If I try to tune for the output I want I have to create a null or put up with the sub sounding horrible. 

I'd like a 110db front stage. 120/125db over all while keep a good sq tune.

Also for nulls there's a little tricky I used to use that works surprisingly well.

If you use rear fill in full range and eq everything outside of you nulls out of it they do quite an amazing job of filling in the voids while adding a little depth to the stage. Your have to get the timing right and you don't need em loud but it works really well for large nulls. 
I'm not really having an issue other nulls. The only major deviation I have it dead on 500hz. I needed to cut everything around it anyway so it really isn't messing up anything.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

if you feel your truck doors are too big of a "sealed" enclosure, perhaps look at drivers designed for infinite baffle installation. the hybrid audio legatia 8se comes to mind...

friend of mine put them in these dodge truck doors and they are midbass monsters...


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

benny z said:


> if you feel your truck doors are too big of a "sealed" enclosure, perhaps look at drivers designed for infinite baffle installation. the hybrid audio legatia 8se comes to mind...
> 
> friend of mine put them in these dodge truck doors and they are midbass monsters...


I had the same thought. Even mentioned it earlier in the thread.


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## Ericm1205 (May 10, 2016)

i wish more companies would make a better 8" driver for componets but they dont. the creator of audio frog, Andy has chimed in many times why he wont create a 8" midbass driver. basically he can get a 6.5 to sound and perform as good as an 8 midbass.

if you dont try the 8" route, why not try to make an enclosure for your doors for the 6.5's? might help get them to dig lower like you want. i like the same music as you. my girl got me into alot of edm stuff and the tuning for that music is very hard. i always have to play with my EQ when i go from EDM to rock.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Based on situation, I re-vote either go ZR800CW OR build sealed/ported "pods" to increase the abilities of your existing drivers.



Drop11 said:


> It's a crew cab f150. With the trimming and baffles in the doors I can easily fit an 8", 4"deep.
> 
> It's not really a null I'm the response. Its more that If I try to tune for the output I want I have to create a null or put up with the sub sounding horrible.
> 
> ...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Ericm1205 said:


> the creator of audio frog, Andy has chimed in many times why he wont create a 8" midbass driver. basically he can get a 6.5 to sound and perform as good as an 8 midbass.


well, look at the audiofrog gb60 vs the one the op has. the gb60 is a pretty heavy duty 6.5 as opposed to the focal


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## brother_c (Sep 21, 2015)

> Right now I'm attenuating EVERYTHING above 160hz. The midrange section is easily cut by a good 8db. Subs generally have no issue getting much louder than components.


I know your said you're not looking for tuning advice, just a thought. Try a low shelf, + increase the db, your FR output from the dsp won't look so good just pulling down on every freq above 160.

My .02 don't be afraid to try something different with the dsp you can always change it back with a click of the mouse.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

I'm definitely not afraid to try stuff. I re tune at least once a week and have for pretty much 25 years. Occasionally I'll get a tune I really like and keep it for a month or so.

Frequency response is good. 500hz has a huge unfillable dip but everything else is responsive to eq. 

I'm quite used to filters. Been mixing music for half my life. Redorded imstuments and lately electronic. This isn't really any different. 

My plan of action as of now is changing the sub. When I initially bought the truck I wanted to keep it stock as possible so I bought a stealth box. Not a lot of good offerings in that department.
I'll likely play with that for a couple weeks and reevaluate the mid's then. In the meantime I'm likely going to look into small sealed enclosures for the mids.

If anyone Is feeling generous and wants to figure out the enclosure size to boost 70-100hz on a 6.5 focal utopia I'd be forever grateful.


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## GEM592 (Jun 19, 2015)

Drop11 said:


> If anyone Is feeling generous and wants to figure out the enclosure size to boost 70-100hz on a 6.5 focal utopia I'd be forever grateful.


If you have the T/S parameters (on the sheet for your focals) I'm pretty sure there's a free program for that but I don't remember exactly its name.


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## GEM592 (Jun 19, 2015)

Somebody was selling 33kx focal utopias on this site for a reasonable price ... how much room do you have to work with?


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## brother_c (Sep 21, 2015)

http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd

Free box calculator software


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## ninetysix (Dec 6, 2009)

I couldn't find any t/s specs for focal drivers, but I didn't try very hard. You might need a woofer tester (like Dayton dats v3) to really know, if you must know. 

If the specs are like most drivers intended for IB or car door use, don't be surprised if winisd suggests it needs a massive box, like a few cubic feet. I think rather than trying to simulate it it would be better to throw together a temporary box made from what ever wood you can get cheaply or for free. Build it kinda shallow so you can rest it against the car door that way you can get some meaningful measurements.

I would suggest building it quite large, like 1.5ft³ even if there's no way you could fit that big of a box in the door. Take a measurement, add some wood blocks to reduce the enclosures volume then measure some more. If with no blocks in the box it only sounds a little bit better than it did in the door, and it only gets worse with blocks added then you can probably pull the pin on it there and then. If it's better in every way, you can work out the volume sweet spot in terms of practicality and sound.

Have fun, experimenting is way more fun than tuning


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Ok here's the deal. I have a small amount of phase shift in the area. 
I disabled my dsp, jumped my ass into the back seat and leaned forward between the seats. It wasn't substantial but it's definitely there. If I had to guess by the loss of output is say somewhere between 45 and 90° out.
It cannot be corrected with ta. 
So the million dollar question is how to you correct phase shift in a 6.5 woofer without throwing the entire upper frequency range out wack? Asymmetrical crossover points? I'd really prefer not to move the speakers out of the doors being this is a my work truck.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Drop11 said:


> It's a crew cab f150. With the trimming and baffles in the doors I can easily fit an 8", 4"deep.
> 
> It's not really a null I'm the response. Its more that If I try to tune for the output I want I have to create a null or put up with the sub sounding horrible.
> 
> I'd like a 110db front stage. 120/125db over all while keep a good sq tune.


Your listening space is the issue, which falls under the guise of tuning. Component exchanges won't solve this, eq won't solve this, ta won't solve this; you must find another way. It is a physical problem.

Also, I think listening ranges you mentioned are absurd. You are barking the wrong tree. Those levels will cause hearing damage in short order. It's permanent; no wizardry or science can bring that back once it's done....


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Drop11 said:


> It sounds hollow and booms. Changing the sub over to a sealed enclosure helps but the sub still sounds like boots.


Cut 160 and 200-250 a ton, also cut at 80hz. 100-105db on the right tune is pretty loud and has great impact. Any louder and your ears start to get overwhelmed and lose their ability to tell minor differences and hence you're transiting from SQ to SPL. If you're crossing at 80 and that's where you feel you have a dip then there are high chances of the four mids being out of phase with each other and or the sub. 

It's still a tuning issue. Some things in life are only learnt by doing them over and over again and not getting the desired results. Carry on.


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## aholland1198 (Oct 7, 2009)

Maybe I missed it, but what vehicle are we talking about?


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## jackk (Dec 27, 2010)

sqnut said:


> .
> 
> It's still a tuning issue. Some things in life are only learnt by doing them over and over again and not getting the desired results. Carry on.



Everyone tries to give good advice here but out of many ppl, have to say SQnut your advice has resonance to me. 

I quoted u in another I want more mid bass thread stating it took me 3 years to narrow things down to your advice. 

Why? Because added the bitone to my same 20 years old setup (moved from 1996 jeep grand cherokee to 06 TL) opened a whole new world of 2000 combinations of settings. I spent a good 3 years to play w/ settings on the 2 ways passive xover on front set & rear fill, amp gains, dsp xover type, dsp xover points... Etc. 

At one point I was in the pigeon hole thinking going 3 ways active w/ more power will b the solution. But thank you to all those who keep saying "going 3 ways or adding more speakers will only make things more complicated". As I know how the same setup sounded in the jeep, w/ the good advices I read here, I know it's the matter of finding the right combination of settings w/ the dsp. Hence 3 years had gone by I finally figured out my problem by trial & error. Yes it is very time consuming and disappointing at times, but I learned a great deal of things!

My issue was the system was already playing at 106dB but somehow I couldn't feel the mid & sub bass. The front stage was playing too loud w/ high dsp gain. Tweeters playing too loud when passive xover tweeter is set at 0dB. Sub was not in phase w/ front mids while I kept pushing the sub lvl to "feel" more bass. Solution: set passive xover for tweeters from 0 to -6dB > lower front stage gains on dsp from -13.5 to -19 > invert sub phase > lower sub lvl > lower all the boosts above 0 on EQ (eg 80Hz) > xover front stage at 80 sub at 70 rear fill at 90 + many small things here & there...

BAM!!! Took me 3 years to learn less can b more!

You have very good gears so I'm not sure if changing the speakers will help. 

Keep trying on the tuning side of things!

Cheers!

EDIT: I am on Orion 6s and always want to get those Utopia Bs but can't afford them. It will b nice to see if you can get the max out of such nice gears you have. 


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## rdlhifi (Sep 8, 2013)

Hi Drop11:

Can't keep reading without chimin' in: 
Having a Crew Cab You have lots of Space, consider using Flat Piston Subwoofers as midbasses (Seriously, I know the purists out there will laugh at me, but I skipped thru many Systems (2 and 3 Way Compo's of different Brand's and Prices, all with 6 inch MB), without knowing WHAT was lacking really: 
One day I was sitting at home enjoying my System, and I felt so silly: I realized It was the Midbass that was lacking in my Car System! (NB: I always had 6 inch Midbasses and Dedicated Sub) How could I overlook something that easy? Do'h!
Soooo: I switched Gears and currently am using Mtx fpr10 Shallow Mount Subs (10 inchers) in Fiberglass + Mdf SEALED Doorboards (as Midbasses of course) playing together with a 12 inch Sub in the back and 3 inch Mids + 1 Inch Tweets up front (with the 10's)...
I can assure You it was worth the Effort: the best Part is I can push them (that is, the 10's) really hard without thinking about damaging them (ok, maybe not that hard, 
because I don't consider Me a Basshead) but it's so nice not having to worry about thumping them out!
I had a couple of Problems to solve, but having a DSP helped me narrowing down Phase and tonality Problems to a minimum (well, to a reasonable minimum) and now my System is WAY better than before (my previous Systems weren't that bad really, I can ensure You)

I'm very picky and fussy about Sound quality, but for the first Time (Seriously) I'm finally very pleased with the SQ of my Car System!
Re-reading what other wrote in Your Post, I agree with sqnut about the "time and response domain" issues that many of Us aren't fully aware of (Seriously, give it a Try, You will be amazed!)

Sorry about my Rambling...wathever You choose, I hope You find Your Nirvana at last!


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