# So. Cal Meet December 1st.



## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

We will be meeting at the old Super Autobacs:


12645 Beach Blvd, Stanton, CA 90680 


Saturday December 1st.


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## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

Count me in for the day after my bday.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I'm in. Spoke to JT and his place is not 100% off the map for that day. The meet is on either way and let's plan for the worst and hope for the best location.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

I will make it this time. I dont know anything about that Super Autobacs place, but if the GTG is at JT's I'll bring an osci and a computer + calibrated mic for anyone who is interested.

BuickGN, will you have your 3 1200s by then?

EDIT: you did not give a time


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

The crazies show up around 9 am and the real crazies don't leave until way after dark.


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## AndyInOC (Jul 22, 2008)

You're aware that autobacs and most of the businesses around it are gone right?


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

AndyInOC said:


> You're aware that autobacs and most of the businesses around it are gone right?


Yes, but the parking lot is still there as well places to eat.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Is it safe? I used to buy drugs in that area.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

oca123 said:


> Is it safe? I used to buy drugs in that area.


We have met there for years without any kind of problem.


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## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

hi everyone, I am totally new to car audio but the bug has bitten me HUGE!!!! I will be at this event, coming from the central coast.


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## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

munkey321 said:


> hi everyone, I am totally new to car audio but the bug has bitten me HUGE!!!! I will be at this event, coming from the central coast.


We better get together then, can't waste your time and gas!

Welcome!


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

munkey321 said:


> hi everyone, I am totally new to car audio but the bug has bitten me HUGE!!!! I will be at this event, coming from the central coast.


Now that is dedication!

You're more than welcome.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Bring it on!


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

oca123 said:


> Is it safe? I used to buy drugs in that area.


As far as I know, it is still safe to buy drugs in the area. A block south of the area, you can still pick up the 6 foot trannies if you are so inclined.

...or so I've heard.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Great, I might stay until dark, you can leave your car at autobacs and i'll take you to work


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

rawdawg said:


> As far as I know, it is still safe to buy drugs in the area. A block south of the area, you can still pick up the *6 foot trannies* if you are so inclined.
> 
> ...or so I've heard.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)




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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

My bad, I didn't even look for a Transvestite Kitty. :blush:


Good looking out.


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

oca123 said:


> Great, I might stay until dark, you can leave your car at autobacs and i'll take you to work


Hey! A girl's gotta' eat...


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

hey, if anyone is interested in using the osci, let me know, because we would likely need a power inverter



> Hey! A *girl*'s gotta' eat...


A what?

About that, what do you do about food? how many people show up? I can see how that would work out at JT's, but i dont know if i wanna start a homeless camp in a parking lot in stanton?

Cause if I get hungry and there is no food, I might just... and that might not be OK with....














oh snap, just noticed:


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Lots of common interest groups meet in that parking lot. We were hardly ever the only meet around, at least until 5pm or so. That's if Autobacs is still around, I think it just changed ownership a while ago. 

The Red Robin is out but there is a crack in the bass pizza place in that shopping center. 

Maybe someone can pass by there to see how things have changed and report back.


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

There's food all up and down Beach Blvd. Not to mention a few Bikini Bars and a strip club with a pretty damn good burger on its menu.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

rawdawg said:


> There's food all up and down Beach Blvd. Not to mention a few Bikini Bars and a strip club with a pretty* damn good burger* on its menu.


Yum!


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

rawdawg, if you shake it for me, i'll buy you a burger!


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

If I don't mow it, you can get a catfish sammich....

I better get a ride in the Bentley for all this...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

A Bentley...that will be a first. 

rawdawg catfish sammich not so much.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> *A Bentley...that will be a first. *


Keep an eye out for me


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## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

michaelsil1 said:


> Keep an eye out for me


I would hope to be blind if that showed up.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

rawdawg said:


> If I don't mow it, you can get a catfish sammich....


im not even sure what that means, but i think im not hungry anymore... ever.



> I better get a ride in the Bentley for all this...


you spoiled the fun. i was going to show up and ask for directions to best buy, and proceed to tell you all about the square kicker subs, 6 way boss competition rear speakers, kenwood tweeters and xplod amps i was scheduled to have installed that morning.



>


that was before i had the skilled technicians at petboys install my UV underglow and spinners. i also have an extra 20hp thanks to that vtech sticker. oh, and one of the kitties is of legal age now


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

oca123 said:


> im not even sure what that means, but i think im not hungry anymore... ever.
> 
> 
> you spoiled the fun. i was going to show up and ask for directions to best buy, and proceed to tell you all about the square kicker subs, 6 way boss competition rear speakers, kenwood tweeters and xplod amps i was scheduled to have installed that morning.
> ...


Does this mean you are not going with us to Best Buy afterwards? It's tradition  Are you pulling speakers out of these:









Dibs on the kitty with fake id.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

To new members looking in, this is a very diverse group of enthusiasts of all ages and walks of life. There are only so many places on earth car audiophiles meet in these numbers with such an amazing arsenal of toys. Join in!!


Tools wise, I'll be bringing my Omnimic setup and laptop. I'm guessing the majority of the battery will go towards testing Chris's car. But there should be some juice left in it for other tests in anybody is interested. I won't be making complete evaluations and posting on DIYMA as I used to, but I can email you guys your plots. Here's what I can do:
HD
SPL
FR
averaged FR
Decay plots: bass and other
There is also RT60 but I have no time to look it up. 

I also have a woofer tester if some of you want to see the impedance or QTC of your system. 

I have three technologies to show off: Air Motion Transformers, Planar mids, Linear Array Transducer bass units. This time I'll tune it for balanced listening. 

Looking forward to new music, old faces and new faces.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

sounds very cool, cvjoint.


> michaelsil1
> Keep an eye out for me





> cvjoint
> Dibs on the kitty with fake id.


by process of elimination, the remaining kitty with fake ID is michaelsil1, unless he's a she, but we determined that that was rawdawg.

i'm excited about the AMTs.... real AMTs, not Audible Physics transducers... we're talking about the Heil design, right? I'm equally excited about the planar mids... I think I've read some stuff about other crazies making planar mids with aluminum foil and neo magnets...

I'm always testing stuff/changing gear, so the odds of my car sounding good are slim


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Yeah, it's a true Heil design where the diaphragm squeezes air with its pleats. The planar mids are BGs. I wouldn't dare make them with kitchen foil. Even homebrew ribbons sound like ass, but I see how planars can technically work easier with the right material. There is no transformer.

So you are saying Mike got his ID taken away again for noise pollution? I knew that big amp would get him in trouble.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

LOL @:










Make sure you don't swallow them before the meet.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

I might not be using them. I have some actual ribbons. Just trying to find the right location. Mids are pointed at dome light in sealed pods. I am thinking the ribbons would be good on the doors, where they meet the sails, but I haven't tried it yet.

I'm guessing everyone should try to bring a chair... what else?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

oca123 said:


> I might not be using them. I have some actual ribbons. Just trying to find the right location. Mids are pointed at dome light in sealed pods. I am thinking the ribbons would be good on the doors, where they meet the sails, but I haven't tried it yet.
> 
> I'm guessing everyone should try to bring a chair... what else?


Be careful with the ribbons, they are really fragile. Mount them too low and the dirt will rip it apart. Mount it too high and the sun will destroy the nickel plating on the magnet slugs. Mount it in a door and you get all of these things plus a nice impact test when you slam the door. 

The AMTs are funky too, the pleats straighten really nicely when hot but look all contorted when cold. Luckily none of this seems to make an audible difference, possibly because there is so much surface area left even when they nearly touch. 

Chair is nice but you'll likely be in a car somewhere throughout the day.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

They're cheap beston ribbons from parts express. I'm more worried about what I would have to do to these doors to fit them, since they probably would not stay more than a few weeks considering how fast i go through speakers


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

oca123 said:


> They're cheap beston ribbons from parts express. I'm more worried about what I would have to do to these doors to fit them, since they probably would not stay more than a few weeks considering how fast i go through speakers


Haha, those are not real ribbons either. True ribbons don't have a voicecoil etched on the diaphragm. You can beat those all you want, planars can take a beating. As for the doors, you mean there are no junkyards for Bentleys?


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Man, I knew I should've gotten a honda...
I can fix a hole in the door card, the issue is the leather... can't find matching leather anywhere...


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> So you are saying Mike got his ID taken away again for noise pollution? I knew that big amp would get him in trouble.


I'm not going Boom Boom I don't like that! What did happen is the Sub Bass got very clean and snappy.


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## meelo (Jul 2, 2007)

I'm putting this in my calendar! I want to show up!

I would be interested in getting some help with my EQ...


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

cvjoint said:


> I also have a woofer tester if some of you want to see the impedance or QTC of your system.


ummm enlighten me... let's say I have a woofer whose t/s parameters are known, mounted onto a car door.
Using the WT2/WT3, is it possible to figure out what kind of enclosure this door is, without looking at it? As in, if it's acting IB, or sealed and how large it is??


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

oca123 said:


> ummm enlighten me... let's say I have a woofer whose t/s parameters are known, mounted onto a car door.
> Using the WT2/WT3, is it possible to figure out what kind of enclosure this door is, without looking at it? As in, if it's acting IB, or sealed and how large it is??


Yes and no. Lots of questions here. Say you built a small sealed enclosure in door for your speaker and it's leak free. I can have WT return the QTC and FS. These impedance curve would be very smooth and the box size can be backed out using WinISD or something like it. With IB don't expect the Q and FS to be textbook perfect. The impedance curve will be wild and the actual box size can't always be backed out. It's not a weakness of the tool but rather real life car door situation, leaking, buzzing and so forth.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

George, I can bring my cheapie power inverter that my wife bought to charge our laptop on road trips, that way if anyone else wants to get all scientifical on their car, battery life won't be an issue. You'd just need your regular wall charger.

I more than likely won't have my car, but I will have my amp, battery, head unit/processor for crossover control and test box with multiple baffles for it. Too many setbacks recently to finish anything in the car. And with as little time as there is to the gtg, I couldn't get anything built push-pull for the car that would be as solid as my concrete kicks, so that could skew in car results. I do have baffles for standard mounted midbass, dual standard mounted midbass, push-pull midbass on a flat baffle, opposed firing midbass in a manifold (can test both push-pull and non), as well as a fully decoupled midbass baffle. The test box is about 6cu-ft, so its basically IB.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

so I should probably buy a tripod soon to hold the mic. Good deal on the inverter.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

oca123 said:


> Man, I knew I should've gotten a honda...
> I can fix a hole in the door card, the issue is the leather... can't find matching leather anywhere...


Fine, you talked me into it. I'll trade my glorified Accord for your Bentley. I'll even throw in a spare door card.

I'm going to buy my RTA Monday. I've got some serious work to do before letting anyone hear it since the installation of the PS8. Still not sure if I'm going to show up with the IB15s, two 13W7s or 3 Dyn 1200s. Probably the AEs considering how lazy I've been lately.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

oca123 said:


> Man, I knew I should've gotten a honda...
> I can fix a hole in the door card, the issue is the leather... can't find matching leather anywhere...


Have you tried a VW junk yard? :laugh:


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

BuickGN, did you get my msg about the Esotars?

What kind of RTA setup are you buying? I have a behringer ecm8000 and the dayton clone w/ calibration files from cross spectrum labs.

I am starting to doubt that phantom power, external interfaces, and all this junk, is really necessary - at least for sweeps at normal volume. Maybe I'll get an MS8-like binaureal microphone and play with that.

CVjoint your answer is exactly what I was expecting. So, how do you test a woofer while it's mounted in a door? I have never played with a woofer tester. Do you just hook it up to the speaker wires at the amplifier in the trunk?

If a lot of people want to have measurements of their cars taken and it's too much for CVJoint, I can assist as well. It would be nice if we both used the same methodology so results could be compared?
I have smaart 6, and some of the free software as well. I can use REW and HolmImpulse. REW is the only one of the three that can do RT60 IIRC.

I also have an 8 channel USB audio interface. It can be useful to check T/A, as I have a piece of software (somewhere) that will run sweeps on all 8 channels sequentially, and let you look at the impulse response for each one. I could bring that as well.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

cvjoint said:


> Have you tried a VW junk yard? :laugh:


actually I have it serviced with a guy who works on VW Phaetons. The problem is that while the platform is VW, the interior, leather colors, etc. are all specific to bentley.
it's all good. I think my wife destroyed one of the ribbons earlier today. It was sitting on my desk and she grabbed it going "What's that?" and when I got it back it was obvious that she stuck her nails in there to see what that yellow ribbon stuff was.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

cvjoint said:


> so I should probably buy a tripod soon to hold the mic. Good deal on the inverter.


furniture clamp and ziptie


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

cvjoint said:


> so I should probably buy a tripod soon to hold the mic. Good deal on the inverter.


If its a standard camera style mount on the mic (IIRC, 1/4-20), I have a tripod I'll bring, its already in the trunk. Probably gonna bring some chairs too.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

oca123 said:


> BuickGN, did you get my msg about the Esotars?
> 
> What kind of RTA setup are you buying? I have a behringer ecm8000 and the dayton clone w/ calibration files from cross spectrum labs.
> 
> ...


I'd love to try out the USB audio interface gadget to check T/A. That's one thing I can't do with my gear. I sold my WinMLS setup thinking the new toy would have everything. 

The WT clamps on to the any connection to the speaker, either at the amp or somewhere before that. No matter what the amplifier has to be disconnected. The WT produces it's own low signal and it's very brittle with large signals. 

For most of the stuff I can get very good repeatability from test to test. I've shown this in a tutorial on DIYMA somewhere. The trick is to use averaging when doing frequency response aka RTA won't do it.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> If its a standard camera style mount on the mic (IIRC, 1/4-20), I have a tripod I'll bring, its already in the trunk. Probably gonna bring some chairs too.


The only thing I'm worried about is resonance coming though the mic. The mic stands are probably better insulated. I used to have the holder that came with the mic but I left it in a car one meet. The guy with the hardtop Merc. has it, I forgot his name. It did look like it had a standard screw post, argh...


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

oca123 said:


> BuickGN, did you get my msg about the Esotars?
> 
> What kind of RTA setup are you buying? I have a behringer ecm8000 and the dayton clone w/ calibration files from cross spectrum labs.
> 
> I am starting to doubt that phantom power, external interfaces, and all this junk, is really necessary - at least for sweeps at normal volume. Maybe I'll get an MS8-like binaureal microphone and play with that.


I was thinking about this one, "system 3" with the recommended accessories. I'm open to any suggestions, I would prefer to buy once and get something that includes as many options as possible.

https://www.trueaudio.com/index.htm


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

don't buy truerta (check your PM)
on top of that, there is free software out there that does a lot more.... holmimpulse comes to mind, REW is good too but setup might be confusing.



EDIT: BuickGN, your PM box is full. Make room for one PM


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

cvjoint said:


> I'd love to try out the USB audio interface gadget to check T/A. That's one thing I can't do with my gear. I sold my WinMLS setup thinking the new toy would have everything.
> 
> The WT clamps on to the any connection to the speaker, either at the amp or somewhere before that. No matter what the amplifier has to be disconnected. The WT produces it's own low signal and it's very brittle with large signals.
> 
> For most of the stuff I can get very good repeatability from test to test. I've shown this in a tutorial on DIYMA somewhere. The trick is to use averaging when doing frequency response aka RTA won't do it.


Well, it's actually firewire :-/ does your laptop have a fw port?

You should be able to check t/a with holmimpulse, but you would have to move the RCA plug every time you want to measure a speaker. No biggie.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

oca123 said:


> don't buy truerta (check your PM)
> on top of that, there is free software out there that does a lot more.... holmimpulse comes to mind, REW is good too but setup might be confusing.
> 
> 
> ...


Done.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

cvjoint said:


> The only thing I'm worried about is resonance coming though the mic. The mic stands are probably better insulated. I used to have the holder that came with the mic but I left it in a car one meet. The guy with the hardtop Merc. has it, I forgot his name. It did look like it had a standard screw post, argh...


Good point, I had to tighten the bolts on the thing before I trusted doing any long exposure pics.


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## Neel (Mar 4, 2009)

Will try to make it out to this one, school / work has been keeping me busy. New subs and hopefully some progress on new mid enclosures in time for the meet.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

My JL Audio 12W7 has been sold and I guess I'll just have to suffer with a Morel Ultimo 12.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

oca123 said:


> Well, it's actually firewire :-/ does your laptop have a fw port?
> 
> You should be able to check t/a with holmimpulse, but you would have to move the RCA plug every time you want to measure a speaker. No biggie.


nope none of my laptops do


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

michaelsil1 said:


> My JL Audio 12W7 has been sold and I guess I'll just have to suffer with a Morel Ultimo 12.


Sadness indeed


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> Sadness indeed


George,

I did get rid of a lot of weight in my trunk with this trade.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

michaelsil1 said:


> George,
> 
> I did get rid of a lot of weight in my trunk with this trade.


I would have started with something less useful, like the dyma stripper body


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Lol, I gotta work on that myself.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

the what?


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

diyma strippers - YouTube


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## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

rawdawg said:


> diyma strippers - YouTube


I'm bringing an umbrella this time.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I got a chance to play with my new Sub today and it is a lot more forgiving than my 12W7 was.


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

michaelsil1 said:


> I got a chance to play with my new Sub today and it is a lot more forgiving than my 12W7 was.


Whatcha switch to Michael?


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

He went from Godzilla to Mothra...


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

darrenforeal said:


> Whatcha switch to Michael?





rawdawg said:


> He went from Godzilla to Mothra...














Morel Ultimo 12


So far I'm closer to what I was looking for in a Sub response.


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

Cool. Good deal


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

For my application I didn't lose anything except some weight (Sub not belly).


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

michaelsil1 said:


> For my application I didn't lose anything except some weight (Sub not belly).


lol. yeah, I have always had mixed feelings about the W7s for strictly sq


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> *The trick is to use averaging when doing frequency response* aka RTA won't do it.



I have an RTA that does Averaging.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

i think he meant spatial averaging


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

michaelsil1 said:


> I have an RTA that does Averaging.


My Omnimic has an RTA function, but I don't call it an RTA, because it also does FFT and decay plots. My car can hold cups, but I wouldn't call it a cup holder kinda thing. Therefore I can only conclude that the device you have just so happens to be called "RTA", or is it called something else... 

The only theory correct way to average in Real Time is with multiple mics. We generally average many RTA snapshots from the same mic in various periods. A time series vs. a cross-section. Both should give the same result however, unless there are stochastic shocks over time, aka BigRed is firing up the 15"s in the other parking spot one moment, but not the next. 


BTW, the tripod is in!


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

Woah, stochastic... haven't heard that word in a while...


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> My Omnimic has an RTA function, but I don't call it an RTA, because it also does FFT and decay plots. My car can hold cups, but I wouldn't call it a cup holder kinda thing. Therefore I can only conclude that the device you have just so happens to be called "RTA", *or is it called something else... *
> 
> The only theory correct way to average in Real Time is with multiple mics. We generally average many RTA snapshots from the same mic in various periods. A time series vs. a cross-section. Both should give the same result however, unless there are stochastic shocks over time, aka BigRed is firing up the 15"s in the other parking spot one moment, but not the next.
> 
> ...


It is called a *Personal Audio Assistant*


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

michaelsil1 said:


> It is called a *Personal Audio Assistant*


And your spare one is called George?


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

rawdawg said:


> Woah, stochastic... haven't heard that word in a while...


I've never heard it before. And I'm pretty sure this is the first time I see it in writing, ever... and I've been speaking English for a decade now.
I knew I shouldn't have dropped out of school. Now I'm stuck learning from Wikipedia.



> I hear it everyday. I have to make a conscious effort not to use it.


I am happy I dropped out of school after all, I guess. Too bad it wasn't before I learned about retrocausality.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

oca123 said:


> I am happy I dropped out of school after all, I guess. Too bad it wasn't before I learned about retrocausality.


You can't quote my future statement, it's a disruption in the time continuum and the doc will be really pissed. The only thing that would be worse is if I quoted you quoting me even before I wrote down my original statement. 


I hear it everyday. I have to make a conscious effort not to use it.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I just bought a new Antenna (needs to be installed). I hope it works better than the one I have.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

I think maybe it would be less embarrassing if we just linked to this thread in our signatures instead.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

I am going to see if the Illusion Audio Scion i just did can make it down...i'd really like you guys to hear it and especially help tune it, it has a pretty rudimentary tune on it and i think can do a lot better after some break in time and further playing...

but love to get you guys' input on the two things that impresses me so far...the amount of extension and output of such a shallow speaker in the 6.5" midbass, and the naturalness quality of the beryllium copper tweeter 

as they are still in the process of refining the line, i think any input would help further improve it


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)




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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

simplicityinsound said:


> I am going to see if the Illusion Audio Scion i just did can make it down...i'd really like you guys to hear it and especially help tune it, it has a pretty rudimentary tune on it and i think can do a lot better after some break in time and further playing...
> 
> but love to get you guys' input on the two things that impresses me so far...the amount of extension and output of such a shallow speaker in the 6.5" midbass, and the naturalness quality of the beryllium copper tweeter
> 
> as they are still in the process of refining the line, i think any input would help further improve it


Bing,

You're always welcome.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

simplicityinsound said:


> I am going to see if the Illusion Audio Scion i just did can make it down...i'd really like you guys to hear it and especially help tune it, it has a pretty rudimentary tune on it and i think can do a lot better after some break in time and further playing...
> 
> but love to get you guys' input on the two things that impresses me so far...the amount of extension and output of such a shallow speaker in the 6.5" midbass, and the naturalness quality of the beryllium copper tweeter
> 
> as they are still in the process of refining the line, i think any input would help further improve it


Are these it? Some ******* installed two in the kicks in another S2000:


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> Are these it? Some ******* installed two in the kicks in another S2000:


that would be the older ones yup  the new ones though are quite a different beast hehe


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

simplicityinsound said:


> that would be the older ones yup  the new ones though are quite a different beast hehe


Ooo, even better. Anyway to outdo the *******. 

Looking forward to hearing these guys!


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I'll probably get there a little late, I want to see if I can get my new antenna installed.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Just happened to pop into the sub-forum to see when the next CA meet was. Wish I'd seen this sooner. No way I can make it for this weekend. I'll try and keep a better eye out and make it to the next one.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm going to try to fit my easy ups in the car, I have two 10x10's. Supposedly its going to rain from 9am-3pm.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

It's strange the way this happens. I work the weekend every 6 weeks. Somehow these meets keep falling on my weekend to work. This one is no exception.

I was going to buy Mark's kicks, I guess we'll have to do it through the mail. I think I'm never going to get to hear those Dyn 1200s IB.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Darn I haven't even washed my car for tomorrow, oh wait...


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Lol, and the easy ups dony fit in the car. Test box and baffles fit, kinda lol. What time are people planning on getting there?


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## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

cvjoint said:


> Are these it? Some ******* installed two in the kicks in another S2000:


I'm considering two illusion 12" subs. are those in the scion?


----------



## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)




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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I'm gonna shoot for 11. Probably closer to 12. I still got some work to do and have to sleep.


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## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm here!!


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## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

blue pt cruiser


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Right next to you.


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

i hope there's still people there, cause im just leaving my house now...


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Great meet y'all! 

Some fantastic cars. 
I was again amazed at JTs Scion, that thing is stout. I'm really hoping when my car comes out of the garage this Christmas break it will have that kick in the bones feel. 

New attendees seem to have some promising venture capitalist rides, like Pasquale's 12 banger! Love Brett's 5 way, reminds me of my first car. 

The Audi was a precision crafted machine. Sublime performance.

The squid did squid like things. 

JJ showed up, on his 21st birthday! 

Jordan? brought Jordan's mom, it was cute. 

Mark brought around the new Honda NSX for all of us to test drive. 

Fun was had and wheels were polished.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

cvjoint said:


> New attendees seem to have some promising venture capitalist rides, like Pasquale's 12 banger! Love Brett's 5 way, reminds me of my first car.


It's Pascal 
I like Brett's 5-way too, I think it will sound much better once he encloses these mids.



> Mark brought around the new Honda NSX for all of us to test drive.


The new NSX, or his new NSX?

It's too bad I was not able to come earlier. Maybe I would have understood the use for CVJoint's sunglasses. Or maybe he has eyes on the back of his head.
I enjoyed the dry, sarcastic romanian humor. It had been a long time since I'd been around that. I know it always gets some people offended, and it looks like he's working on it though, as I noticed a couple of times when he was about to make a snappy remark and changed his mind. It made me giggle.

Too bad I didn't get to hear Michaelsi's car. Hearing eurotrash music in CVJoint's car brought me back.

Rawdawg was cool too. I have to admit though, I spaced out while he was describing the soundstage in Michael's car last time he heard it, and comparing it to today's. Not that it was boring or anything... I just had to choose between focusing on the wide, animated hand gestures, or the words. I caught myself thinking that if he had been the weatherman, we'd all be in deep ****.

Fun times


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

oca123 said:


> It's Pascal
> I like Brett's 5-way too, I think it will sound much better once he encloses these mids.
> 
> *Yeah, dipole works if you move it away from the back "wall". *
> ...


Rascal Pascal.


----------



## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

thanks everyone for all your input at my first meet. I really valued all your input and am really looking forward to the next event. obviously I have a lot of work to do now, first step, pioneer dex p99rs. next step, lots of tuning. thanks for letting me listen to all of your cars.

Michael, again, LOVE your system and I even love your car. it has a homey feel to it.  all those new cars just feel sterile!


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Awww, too bad you missed me then. I haven't emptied my ashtray in 3 months.


----------



## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

munkey321 said:


> Michael, again, LOVE your system and I even love your car. it has a homey feel to it.  all those new cars just feel sterile!


*Michael definitely has something up his sleeve...but, I think he couldn't help it and showed his cards with his secret...*


----------



## Accordguyintake (Jun 15, 2011)

oh god I rush off to work early and basically miss the whole show :/

Jason - "Blue Honda Fit"


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

cvjoint said:


> Great meet y'all!
> 
> Some fantastic cars.
> I was again amazed at JTs Scion, that thing is stout. I'm really hoping when my car comes out of the garage this Christmas break it will have that kick in the bones feel.
> ...




Lol, gtg was pretty good, and no rain. A good amount of people for having a new location. Looking forward to next time.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I was just going to send this to George, but this is the *original rapper* with the hottest musicians!




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsWS0WlJCcY]Frank Zappa - Dinah-Moe humm - YouTube


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

what did I just watch?


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

you know you got a boner


----------



## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> what did I just watch?


Something you don't hear on the Radio! :laugh:


Terry Bozzio (Drummer) played a *stunning* drum solo from that show! I didn't know if you all wanted to see it all he is wearing is a skimpy speedo.


----------



## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

oca123 said:


> Rawdawg was cool too. I just had to choose between focusing on the wide, animated hand gestures, or the words...


Damn it all, I have no rebuttal...


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

michaelsil1 said:


> Something you don't hear on the Radio! :laugh:
> 
> 
> Terry Bozzio (Drummer) played a *stunning* drum solo from that show! I didn't know if you all wanted to see it all he is wearing is a skimpy speedo.


Post a pic of you back then! Unless of course, you are wearing a speedo.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> Post a pic of you back then! Unless of course, you are wearing a speedo.


----------



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

hahahhah


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## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

hi everyone, this is mike with the pt cruiser. after the meet it was apparent that my system need a little work so we've made a few changes....

1. changed from ported boxes to sealed down fire.
2. switched hertz ht28 tweets to cdt drt-26s
3. switched head unit from kenwood kdc-x996 to pioneer deh-80prs
4. super sound deadened the doors
5. retuned

I would love it if anyone wanted to hear it again. I live on the central coast but have family in Southern California so I can get there any time.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

munkey321 said:


> hi everyone, this is mike with the pt cruiser. after the meet it was apparent that my system need a little work so we've made a few changes....
> 
> 1. changed from ported boxes to sealed down fire.
> 2. switched hertz ht28 tweets to cdt drt-26s
> ...


When are you coming down again?


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

When did you get time to do all that???

I saw your car in the parking lot when I got there, so I'm guessing we met? I'm down to listen to it any time. Additionally, I have a measurement setup and calibrated microphone. It would be cool if we could get a couple more guys from here, we could have a mini-meet at my house, there is space to work on cars, and i also have a scope if you wanna set your gains.


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## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

michaelsil1 said:


> When are you coming down again?


I was thinking this weekend.


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## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

oca123 said:


> When did you get time to do all that???
> 
> I saw your car in the parking lot when I got there, so I'm guessing we met? I'm down to listen to it any time. Additionally, I have a measurement setup and calibrated microphone. It would be cool if we could get a couple more guys from here, we could have a mini-meet at my house, there is space to work on cars, and i also have a scope if you wanna set your gains.


I don't do my own tuning yet, or ever maybe, but if you want to put in your equipment and check things out, that would be cool. I could probably learn a lot.


----------



## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I'm good for this weekend.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

I think I'm free this weekend. CVJoint lives closeby. Also my house is on Bret's way back from work, and he works on weekends, maybe he can stop by.
George, what do you say?


----------



## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

Maybe the Next GTG I can bring the Honda Jet..............


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Slim chance of making it, got loads of work, but don't mark me off completely. I could come to say hi if I get a ride there in the Honda Jet, who knows. 

G


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

I'm dealing poker this Saturday night but during the day I'm usually hanging at the local bars in Orange County areas. I could sacrafice a beer or two to hang with you fools...


----------



## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

rawdawg said:


> I'm dealing poker this Saturday night but during the day I'm usually hanging at the local bars in Orange County areas. I could sacrafice a beer or two to hang with you fools...


where do you deal, maybe I'll play afterwords.


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## WaTTsLOk187 (May 1, 2007)

oca123 said:


> When did you get time to do all that???
> 
> I saw your car in the parking lot when I got there, so I'm guessing we met? I'm down to listen to it any time. Additionally, I have a measurement setup and calibrated microphone. It would be cool if we could get a couple more guys from here, we could have a mini-meet at my house, there is space to work on cars, and i also have a scope if you wanna set your gains.


Thanks for putting that out there. I can't make a lot of events and have been to a few SoCal meets and even though you might not have a bad ass setup, these guys WILL help out. Thanks!


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Alright, so which day is best for you guys?
That's funny, I had a feeling Rawdawg played poker. You don't happen to be dealing cards at some private party in a certain irvine high rise condo tower that sat night, do you?

So I've got Munkey321, MichaelSi, Rawdawg maybe, Bret maybe (will txt him)
I'm obviously more comfortable with having someone over whom I have met before, since this is at my house. I've met BigRed, but he's probably busy, being that he has, like, 73 kids and stuff.
Which day is better for you guys?

I don't have room for the Honda Jet to land, so George probably wont make it. Anyway, I know Romanians are Honda fanboys, but I have a feeling that given the option, they might just go for the Numa Numa jet:








Personally, I'd ride the TARDIS.


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## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

I'm good either day, just let me know time and place. not sure if you remember if you remember how the pt sounded before but there has been a substantial improvement with the changes. I'd love input.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

I wanna say this Saturday the 8th is good for me. As to time.... anything after noon is good, until whenever (i go to sleep very, very late)

EDIT: As to place, I will let you know the address via PM once we've figured out all the details, but if you want to calculate driving time, etc. you can use Westcliff Plaza Shopping Center in Newport Beach, CA as a destination.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

I am down for that.


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

michaelsil1 said:


> Something you don't hear on the Radio! :laugh:
> 
> 
> Terry Bozzio (Drummer) played a *stunning* drum solo from that show! I didn't know if you all wanted to see it all he is wearing is a skimpy speedo.


Don't forget Adrian Belew on guitar... awesome.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Damn you guys lol. No chance of making it this weekend, but i gotta talk to you rawdawg. Gotta start working on my wifes system, her 3 year old honda head unit is dying.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

kevin k. said:


> Don't forget Adrian Belew on guitar... awesome.




Kevin,

Where have you been I've missed you!


----------



## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

munkey321 said:


> I'm good either day, just let me know time and place. not sure if you remember if you remember how the pt sounded before but there has been a substantial improvement with the changes. I'd love input.












hmmmmmmm


----------



## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

im totally down and i will see if i can get my new pillars done, but don't hold your breath. also trying finish my doors so it doesn't look so ghetto. had a pretty good experience with pink floyd's 'welcome to machine' tonight, though! should be there around 6:45 after i get done teaching. 

pascal, you gonna have enough room, dude?


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Well, I don't think everyone is going to be there at the same time, plus, we can have the cars along the driveway.
if we can fit the kind of speakers we fit where we fit them, i dont think we'll have a problem.
I do have to cap the number of people though.
So I have Munkey321, who is the reason why this is all happening in the first place. He's taking quite a long drive down here, that's why I figured we might as well get a few more of us together.
Michaelsi
Brett after 6:45pm
Rawdawg taking some time out of his busy schedule as a pro poker dealer said he would stop by for a bit
CVJoint said he might stop by
Golden Ears

I hope I'm not forgetting anyone as this is off the top of my head. It looks pretty manageable. My car will be in the garage, there will be 2 empty spots, + the front of the house... we're good.... maybe 1 more person and I'll cap it at that for the sake of manageability.

Now to tell my wife.... hahahaha


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## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

oca123 said:


> When did you get time to do all that???
> 
> I saw your car in the parking lot when I got there, so I'm guessing we met? I'm down to listen to it any time. Additionally, I have a measurement setup and calibrated microphone. It would be cool if we could get a couple more guys from here, we could have a mini-meet at my house, there is space to work on cars, and i also have a scope if you wanna set your gains.


1. got home Sunday and immediately started on the boxes. it was raining so I pulled the table saw in the kitchen, no garage, this was a bad idea, I kinda forgot how much sawdust mdf makes. anyhow, I think I earned a couple DIY points for that.
2. I believe the tweeters were an easy swap, drive did it.
3. drive did the head unit but I can't imagine that took long.
4. the doors already had full sound deadening on the outside door metal, inside door metal and on the door panel, drive added foam to the door panel, did some stiffening of the inner door metal with modeling clay and added a dampener behind the midbass. they did a little more, maybe I can get them in here to explain a bit better.
5. drive tuned it today, the current struggle is I'm 5'9 and he's 6 or 7 feet tall, idk, but my foot wells are shallow I guess and he's having a tough time getting his ears to my level.....I guess I should also mention, I slouch, a lot!

so it really wasnt too time consuming because I had the pros do all the heavy lifting!!!


----------



## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

oca123 said:


> I wanna say this Saturday the 8th is good for me. As to time.... anything after noon is good, until whenever (i go to sleep very, very late)
> 
> EDIT: As to place, I will let you know the address via PM once we've figured out all the details, but if you want to calculate driving time, etc. you can use Westcliff Plaza Shopping Center in Newport Beach, CA as a destination.


if we're on for Saturday, I will be there between 1 and 2 pm, if that's cool.


----------



## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

munkey321 said:


> where do you deal, maybe I'll play afterwords.


It's just a Gambling Supply House that puts on Casino nights for Corporations. Not pro level stuff by any means. They normally spread 21 and Roulette but occasionally get calls for Hold 'em. They usually call me to deal that game because I can count past 36. I've dealt private games but not so much anymore. I'll roll by in the afternoon, I just got to leave by 6 pm.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

i've had a couple sawdust sandwiches in my life, but table saw in the kitchen... hahahaha. I wish I could say you're nuts, but I've done worse.... I got my first router about 2 years ago. This was in France, and I had found a great deal to rent a giant manor built in 1407 and renovated in the late 80s, furnished, with 40 acres of land, etc... in the south of France.
And I mean a GREAT deal.... at EUR/USD exchange rate at the time, we're talking USD3300 for 6000sq ft. Add another $500 for utilities, and the once in a lifetime opportunity to live in, well, let's just say that when I say manor, it's because I don't want to sound snobby and use the word "castle." - trust me, it was a great ****ing deal.

It was living there that I got into car audio.

There was a giant workshop (2500 sq ft) that had been used to store farming equipment, but I didn't find out it was part of my lease until our last month there.

I didn't mind, because we had a courtyard that was walled in, and, well, with 40 acres, we didnt really have a neighbor in sight.

I'm a night owl, so I would often mess around late at night. Came around winter though, it got in the low 30s, and it became very impractical to "work" (play) outside.

So I took the router, routing table, fiberglass stuff, bondo, etc. into the living room.

This is an old school manor which could have been a national monument, but the owners refused to register it as such when they had the opportunity, and tough financial times had forced them to rent it out.
It was furnished, and not with cheap ****... all solid wood, handmade, quality stuff. There was a taxidermy deer head on the wall, and a giant fireplace made out of fossilized shells. I venture to guess that if someone wanted to buy that living room table here in the US, it would run over USD10,000 without the chairs, easily.

So it's winter-time, and I got my first router, and I am making corner enclosures out of fiberglass and bondo in that living room.

It took 2 days to clean up the sawdust. We had to take down the deer head to vacuum the dust off it. The smell of FG and Bondo... well, it lasted a while.

When we thought it was clean, I lit a fire in the fireplace. This caused air to flow from the entrance, into the room and up the fireplace, and with it came another cloud of MDF dust.

Surprisingly, my wife remained calm throughout the entire incident. But then she flipped out because I was dizzy from breathing all the fumes and dust and was not hungry that evening. I don't understand women.


----------



## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

seriously, the respirator was the best purchase ive made this year. it was only like30 bucks at the depot, but saved me alot of headaches and other potential damage. even outside with no mask but plenty of natural ventilation i was getting really sick, but now nothing. for me, because i'd spent so long without one i had built up a sensitivity to fumes and sawdust so if i smell them now i usually have a migraine within the hour. just saying dude, small investment, big return!


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Munkey321
Michaelsi
Brett after 6:45pm
Rawdawg for a bit
CVJoint maybe
Golden Ears maybe
JTAudioAcc maybe after 6pm
And myself

I think we're shooting for 2pm-ish, but 12pm and after is good.

As to the respirator... I was thinking of getting this one:


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

What did your wife say?


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

I met his wife last night, she seems really nice. ..defintely will be a great hostess- she has that flair. 

BTW should I try to bring some food for everyone? Nothing crazy like the giant 3 BBQ rib cookout at JTs that I did last summer.... Though...I might have a line on rack of lamb....not sure though. It depends if they have it in stock. 

I have to avoid gluten..the benefit of that is less pizza and pasta and better food.


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

Put me in the Maybe column - New front stage for Me, All the PHASS is GONE, running ScanSpeak 2904-60000 in stock holes, And the Bullion plated MB in the doors sound pretty good......


----------



## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

cool, I'll plan on 2:00. the guys at drive just got done making some adjustments and IMHO it's sounding pretty awesome.


----------



## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

What's the address?


----------



## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

xxx_busa said:


> Put me in the Maybe column - New front stage for Me, All the PHASS is GONE, running ScanSpeak 2904-60000 in stock holes, And the Bullion plated MB in the doors sound pretty good......


 why the change???


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Munkey321
Michaelsi
Brett after 6:45pm
Rawdawg for a bit
CVJoint maybe
Golden Ears until 6pm-ish
JTAudioAcc maybe after 6pm
xxx_busa maybe

Golden Ears, up to you for the food.
This isn't really a "meet-up" where we all come to show off our cars. You get to take **** apart, tune it, etc. - basically I was going to work on my car tomorrow afternoon and you're all welcome to come by and do whatever. Plus, my garage is a mess, so now I have an excuse to clean it all up, and a deadline 
The main goal is to help Munkey321, he said he wanted some opinions on how his new setup sounds. What processor do you run Munkey?

I will PM everyone the address later today when I'm not running late on my appointments.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

I'm not sure my wife will be around. If she is, there will also be a strange lady with a very negative attitude. This lady was her mom's (her own mom, not my wife's, we're not related) caregiver, and her mom passed away. She got stuck with a whole lot of debt, not enough life insurance to cover everything, and she also lost her apartment about a week ago. My wife heard about it at church and she went and got her from the hotel she was staying at and brought her over, and she's helping her find a place to live, since the lady works long hours and is too tired to look for a new place.
Don't look at her funny and don't ask her who she is and what she's doing here, or that might make her feel uncomfortable.


----------



## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

oca123 said:


> Munkey321
> Michaelsi
> Brett after 6:45pm
> Rawdawg for a bit
> ...


I'm running the 6 to 8, I talked to drive and we have two presets to mess around with if anyone wants to play. I know absolute nothing about tuning. I always ask what kind of adjustments my installer made and when he starts talking about db this and that I just kinda point my eyes at Jupiter and see if I can see what he's talking about somewhere way up there.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Cool, I'll install the software. You can learn some about tuning tomorrow. Also I saw you had questions about ripping CDs into a lossless format, so bring your laptop if you have one, that way when you leave it will have the right software to do it, and you will know how to use it.


----------



## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

munkey321 said:


> *I know absolute nothing about tuning.* I always ask what kind of adjustments my installer made and when he starts talking about db this and that I just kinda point my eyes at Jupiter and see if I can see what he's talking about somewhere way up there.




You can always do a:


----------



## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

oca123 said:


> Cool, I'll install the software. You can learn some about tuning tomorrow. Also I saw you had questions about ripping CDs into a lossless format, so bring your laptop if you have one, that way when you leave it will have the right software to do it, and you will know how to use it.


cool, will do, I've been having some luck with wav at the highest settings on iTunes but haven't given it that critical listen yet. it would be cool to get some input into if I'm really hearing differences or if it's just in my head.


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Maybe if the other guys are up for it we can do a blind A/B test.
Wav takes too much room, you want to be using flac.

I sent the address, let me know if you didn't get it.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

oca123 said:


> Maybe if the other guys are up for it we can do a blind A/B test.
> Wav takes too much room, you want to be using flac.
> 
> I sent the address, let me know if you didn't get it.


Actually, some industry professionals and suggesting using different storage media 160 kb per second using variable bit rate.

Still, I think the time may come when we actually have better decoding algorithms make existing 16-bit 44 one signal and higher actually sound better so I am wary to convert, Except for temporary usage


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Flac is lossless. You can take a flac file, decode it, and it will be bit for bit identical to the raw PCM extracted from the CD.
Ultimately, CDs will disappear, we will all have our music in the cloud and it will be streamed on demand to our cars, phones, etc.
The only files we will keep will be the esoteric, rare, etc. mixes.


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

I use the apple lossless encoder which takes up 1/2 the space and can easily be transcoded back to flac. If you like flac you can rock box an iPod and play flac files. ...A pretty good choice...Some of the flac players are really nice...and of course then you can directly play tons of live concert files that were made available in FLAC. 

Pure music is a Player that runs atop iTunes (it sequesters ram and cpu for itself to isolate it from routine housekeeping tasks) with additional functionality (it plays FLAC too)and can play up to 24but/384 khz files... Some of which I played myself on the $20,000 da Vinci DAC which was in the same room I was demoing Chapman Speakers, Cary Audio, and MIT cable. Even though that DAC is not my personal favorite, you could hear the difference in terms of air , decay of notes and image depth.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Flac files are smaller than Alac (apple lossless) files. Flac is also faster to encode. Flac is open source, it is free, whereas Apple lossless is closed, proprietary.
See Lossless comparison - Hydrogenaudio Knowledgebase

That said for playback on an ipad/ipod I guess Apple Lossless is more convenient since its supported right out of the box. For any other use, for archiving, etc. Flac is better IMO.


----------



## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

Oops confused FLAC with .WAV. It looks like the FLAC is smaller in compression by .2 % if I read that chart right and certainly faster to transcode according to it .

I just leave stuff as ALAC and do not for the most part, transcode..until I hear something that still uses a widely accepted player that sounds better I will likely continue using iTunes like the rest of the people . Bruce Brisson of MIT likes direct stream digital the best, he says the files sizes are very large..so there may need to be some catch up of Moores law first. I am not into this field, I just listen until I hear something better.

I just use ALAC because the vast majority of people I come across use iTunes as their player, at the hi-fi shows (RMAF and T.H.E. show Newport) many of the best sounding rooms seem to use pure music or Amarra on top of iTunes. I think there is likely a marginally better sounding FLAC or WAV player out there... It's just that iTunes allows for AirPlay for redbook CD.

I do have a lot of files in FLAC. 

I do think that in the there should be a prefix on any file - or a quick analysis engine that identifies the format and transcodes on the fly with a buffer..so every player could play everything.

If you really want your digital files to sound amazing... The best knock your socks off DAC I have heard is the Stahl-Tek Vekian. I heard this with The Chapman T-8 when I was doing a dealer demo using the Bob Carver 305 Black Beauties, and Tim Pavarinchi E.A.R. Pre-amp and it was a game ender. Some of the best sound I have ever heard regardless of shows and dealers and cost. Historically. I like the vey large format planars ie..large infinities, Magneplanar Tympani's and so on best..even though they are old designs. But this made dynamic loudspeakers really sing and image... We listened to the entire album.straight through ..which is unusual to do when evaluating a product...there did not seem to be any glaring fault that warranted investigation . The performers were convincingly in the room most of the time....which is very hard to do.


But that day there were a lot of new variables at once, wire, DAC, Amp..though I knew the room, pre-amp and speakers all really well. And the dealer really liked it- we just fed it redbook off a solos server. If you wanted to go nuts with your Bentley you might be able to stuff that DAC in- its just another 50lbs. I once was considering putting a Wadia 860 in my car. I do feel the source is the weakest link in the car audio chain.

Other than that super crazy expensive stuff, I like my Wadia 860x with a Great Northern Sound Statement Level upgrade- that now takes USB Inputs. Though it has to go back for a new 24/96 board...drat.

So since its a hands on testing stuff meet up...I'm happy to check out all the new toys and learn something new. Since it is a short one I wil skip the food. I want to see how people use the test data to change drivers...also wondering if people can see interference between adjacent drivers and if selecting crossover frequency wavelengths nearer to the center to center distance allows for best sound. 

Who am I kidding, there is never enough time !


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Whoaaa dude. Now we've gone completely off topic 
1) That's not what transcoding means. If like you say a player can transcode a file to mp3 and then play it, why not just play the file directly? Transcoding is where you have a media server in your house, and it streams audio to another device of yours, transcoding it into a smaller format more suitable for streaming. Transcoding for audio is pretty much dead, because we have enough bandwidth to transcode flac real-time without buffering.
Transcoding is useful for video, where the device playing the stream may not have enough power to decode 1080p, or where bandwidth is limited. Ultimately, transcoding will stop, because bandwith increase, and devices will be more powerful.

2) It's not necessarily a hands dirty meet... its just a bunch of car audio guys getting together. The difference is that it is not in a public parking lot, it is on private property, so we can do whatever we want, and there are tools, etc.

3) I don't think I want to go that far with this car. In fact, I just realized I may have serious hearing loss, because as I was cleaning earlier (and I'm still not done) I tried using a pair of cheap, one strand electrical wires (think coathanger) as an RCA interconnect, and switching between that and some nicer wires back and forth, I couldn't hear the difference :-/


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

I use the term to mean charging from one format to another , un compressing one lossless format into a non compressed format and then into another which could be lossy ( like fitting more files on an iPod using mp3 ...) or going to another lossless format. Not so much in the video or movie streaming sense because I wouldn't be doing that in a car.

Maybe re-encoding is a more descriptive term. 

I took my iPod classic and tossed a 256gb SSD into it so it could hold a lot of ALAC for playing or possibly everything in 160vbr... But I haven't personally done the listening to determine whether it is good or not.

Some music is easier to compress without really much noticeable loss, like techno and some other EDM, but you can lose a lot with good recordings with complex musical passages.

There is a saying in pro audio. "Voltage is voltage" meaning that all amps sound alike...as do all pre-amps, and all CD players when you match the voltage levels exactly. All you are doing is moving a cone back and forth and that the distortion is too negligible to tell the difference so long as neither amp doesn't have gross distortion of say 1% or more. For a test tone.. I woud say this is pretty much true. But for music YMMV. If you have a poor recording , source , or a non resolving speaker it becomes harder to hear the difference. 

A speaker is a transducer...not so unlike a musical instrument, some instruments have lots of detail and great harmonics... Plastic song flute does not have them .. 

So to abstract this.. Lets say you were looking at art.

You look at a minimalist painting.. And the impact on you is proably going to be about the same even if your vision is not perfectly clear. You have enough resolution to obtain most of the source information even with partially compromised eyesight.

Now you go to the next room look at a piece of art with much more detail- Without a good eyeglass perscription you might miss a lot of what the artist was trying to convey.

The pro audio guy who said. "Voltage is voltage" might say... It is the same, both rooms with the art in them have the same amount of light. The emotional impact should be the same. And for some it is. 

I had Laser PRK when it first came out and corrected my vision to far better than what I could see with glasses or contacts... It was like a total sensory overload at first.. Like the tres were not only swaying with the wind each individual leaf was swaying too and reflecting. Brick buildings looked much more intricate.

Big Boobs, they looked about the same, but you mostly only see those up close anyhow.
If all you are looking at are rounded smooth orbs.... Low resolution is fine. Billie Jean sounds pretty good to most people even through a boom box.

And even though brick buildings and trees initially might not seem very interesting, they can be if you can see better. So for me, higher resolution audio lets me enjoy more music varieties. 

In the same vein, I once found myself in an odd sonic trap , where I was listening to music that wasn't my favorite genre more often than music I really liked because those speakers could not rock out. Not going there again. Lol.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

If I come by can I get a 0-60 launch?


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## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

Golden Ears said:


> I use the term to mean charging from one format to another , un compressing one lossless format into a non compressed format and then into another which could be lossy ( like fitting more files on an iPod using mp3 ...) or going to another lossless format. Not so much in the video or movie streaming sense because I wouldn't be doing that in a car.
> 
> Maybe re-encoding is a more descriptive term.
> 
> ...


I really like your art analogy, that's kinda what's been going through my head, when I'm listen inning critically it's like I'm in front of a painting and I can see things I like and things I don't. I know the painting needs work to fix those "details" but I don't yet know how to paint.

I did especially notice that after theses changes I don't have to listen to the stereo all the way up all the time. the music is now enjoyable at lower volumes because I can hear the detail I used to have to turn it up just to hear. of course, I'm always gonna crank it up!


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

I'm not sure I got the 0-60 launch joke


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

George literally means a 0-60mph launch as passenger.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

i just got new tires on the S63.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

oca123 said:


> i just got new tires on the S63.


Haha YES!


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

ZR LABS 

Prestige Line 

ZR Speaker Lab - Products




xxx_busa said:


> Put me in the Maybe column - New front stage for Me, All the PHASS is GONE, running ScanSpeak 2904-60000 in stock holes, And the Bullion plated MB in the doors sound pretty good......


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

so when is everyone going?


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## munkey321 (Oct 24, 2012)

thanks everyone for showing up yesterday, I ended up driving home, just couldn't pull myself away from the stereo.

thanks for all the input, I definately came away with a few projects to try.

already looking forward to the next meet.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Hi,

I want to thank everybody for showing up. Munkey was the last one to leave, and I think he was very happy to have made the long drive down to OC.
It was very nice to see everyone. If we do this again, I will make sure to plan it properly, and there will be food, drinks, and chairs... maybe Golden Ears can help me make a stripper pole, so that Rawdawg can strip for us!
MichaelSil's car sounded really good. Must have been all that smooth jazz he was playing... but I started feeling warm and fuzzy homosexual feelings towards him. Thankfully, I got out of the car in time, and the transformation was reversed... I think.
It was a nice surprise to see JT show up. BigRed, sorry you couldn't make it!
George, I owe you a 0-60 in either vehicle, take your pick, as long as it is a school day so we know there are no kids, and there is no fog.
Mark's setup is insane. Very unexpected, I hope I get to hear this car once it's tuned.
John, you don't have enough amplifiers, and they are too small anyway. As to that remote for your crossover, I would make sure it's attached to your keychain, or it might fall in a crack or something and you might lose it.
If anyone has pictures, post them


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## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

my job always interferes with these meets and i end up showing up late. this will probably be my last socal meet, unfortunately, but it was nice to see all you guys and listen to some amazing cars. next month i will be in az, so i will have to see if their family will adopt me.

thanks for all the input and advice on my system..... may the schwartz be with you!


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

Thank CV joint for letting me hear your car...You might win the prize for most drivers crammed into a 2 seater.

Your car sounded very smooth.

Now I am thinking about B & G Neo 10's for the dash of the GF's escalade...I was wondering if you have heard Strathearn Ribbons from Ireland? Home audio in the 1970-1990's always had trouble with ridiculous low impedance loads... these ribbons are .55 ohms.

If I do 4 laid out in her dash ...2 per channel ... in series I could run a 1 ohm load.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Golden Ears said:


> Thank CV joint for letting me hear your car...You might win the prize for most drivers crammed into a 2 seater.
> 
> Your car sounded very smooth.
> 
> ...


Nope, have not heard them. With your amps I would think .5 ohm load is just fine. Too much heatsink to ever cry about it. You have to really ask yourself what is it that the Ireland ribbons can do that a well designed AMT can't do. You can start at the transformer. I prefer mine to the LCY ribbons and those had one of the tiniest ribbons ever.

Here is the old install with the LCY:


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## Golden Ears (Jul 18, 2010)

The Strathearns are midrange ribbons.

They were famous in several home audio sytems.

here is a guy who uses them with magneplanar Tympani 1D I think they were also part of the famous Infinity QRDS system and the servo static.

They have been compared to the Quad ESL speakers... which I think would be amazing to have this clarity in a car.

Never mind..they are too large... going to go with the NEO 10.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Whoa, yeah they are 23" long. Midrange ribbons huh, I bet you need at least 3 square feet to move enough air at 200hz.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

How critical is the design of the Neo10 or Neo3's grille? It's butt ugly. I wonder how the Neo3 would sound if I had a different looking grille made, out of aluminum, with a slightly different pattern. And I don't want to pay a machine shop to find out. Any ideas


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

So my impedance was set wrong in my DSP.... the sensitivety was at 1.333 ohm, should have been at 3.972 FRIED a Tweeter


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

oca123 said:


> How critical is the design of the Neo10 or Neo3's grille? It's butt ugly. I wonder how the Neo3 would sound if I had a different looking grille made, out of aluminum, with a slightly different pattern. And I don't want to pay a machine shop to find out. Any ideas


Behind the grille you'll find rows of neo magnets. You can't thin it down! 

As for downsides to the grille design, imagine every outlet on the BG planar is a speaker, you have many of them placed like the outlets you see. What happens when you have dozens of speakers arranged in a rectangular formation with that CTC? 



xxx_busa said:


> So my impedance was set wrong in my DSP.... the sensitivety was at 1.333 ohm, should have been at 3.972 FRIED a Tweeter


Wait, what does your DSP do with impedance?


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

xxx_busa said:


> So my impedance was set wrong in my DSP.... the sensitivety was at 1.333 ohm, should have been at 3.972 FRIED a Tweeter


What does your DSP do when you tell it the impedance of the speakers? Does it adjust relative gains or something? I tried to look up the DSP6 manual but I couldn't find a copy i could have within 2 minutes without having to sign up for some website


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

cvjoint said:


> Behind the grille you'll find rows of neo magnets. You can't thin it down!
> As for downsides to the grille design, imagine every outlet on the BG planar is a speaker, you have many of them placed like the outlets you see. What happens when you have dozens of speakers arranged in a rectangular formation with that CTC?


Oh it's thin enough 
So you've taken one apart already? Does it fall part if you remove the grille? As in, would it be easy to take it out, paint it and put it back?



cvjoint said:


> Wait, what does your DSP do with impedance?


Yeah I wonder the same thing? We wanted to set the gains, so we hooked up a scope to one of his tweeters and played some test tones, I guess it didn't like it one bit. No wonder Rawdawg thought the sound stage was pulling so much to the right


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

oca123 said:


> Oh it's thin enough
> So you've taken one apart already? Does it fall part if you remove the grille? As in, would it be easy to take it out, paint it and put it back?


The grille is also a basket. As far as I can tell they are not meant to be taken apart. I can see the magnets just by looking at an angle. 

I just got my second pair of Neo10 and AMTs. I can bring them over if you want to try them out. Just make sure you put them in the house when you cut MDF and such. They have damping sheets which I'd like to keep clean.


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## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Thanks. I can't tell with the Neo3s, even looking at an angle, but I had a feeling that they shouldn't be taken apart since they didn't use screws to assemble them.

I would love to try them out. I promise to be careful with them. The main thing I want to do, is figure out where they can be placed. I know you can sort of do that with a cardboard template, but it's not exactly the same 

Just let me know when you have some time to stop by  also, i'm guessing you're going to use the winter break to work on the s2k, so let me know the approx. dates whenever you have a rough idea...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

K will do.

John, you PMd me but you can't receive PMs back!


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