# CarPC audio DSP apps?



## 2010hummerguy

What do you guys use for eq, TA, xover, etc.on your carpc? Here are the ones I've researched so far:

Acourate - the Rolls Royce of them all. $490 YIKES
Reaper - $60 for personal license. Accepts FIR filters.
rePhase - generates FIR filters. Free! But not a full DSP app.
Convolver - also free but needs to plug in to certain players...still learning about this one.
JRiver - v20 just released, only $50. Old version had difficult active xover control. Haven't researched new version xover controls yet.


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## stingray72

I planned on using linux for my first car pc since its all free and if you know someone who could program its open source also. I havent looked into what they have in linux yet though but I have a dual core laptop with windows 7 home premium and a 14 inch screen for the duties. I also plan on using a dac and if I can ill use my phoenix gold line driver.


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## Zippy

So, why not use a board with toslink out into a traditional DSP? Hell, you could even run the software for controlling the DSP in the carputer and leave the USB connection to the DSP.


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## 2010hummerguy

That's the easy/expensive way out 

I'd like to take advantage of some of the software options out there. With the right configuration, we are able to take advantage of a 64 bit architecture with 192khz resolution while saving $500-1k.

The only reason I'd consider outboard processing is for DAC/opamps and SNR advantages.


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## stingray72

Architect7 said:


> That's the easy/expensive way out
> 
> I'd like to take advantage of some of the software options out there. With the right configuration, we are able to take advantage of a 64 bit architecture with 192khz resolution while saving $500-1k.
> 
> The only reason I'd consider outboard processing is for DAC/opamps and SNR advantages.



My thinking as well. plus id like to be creative/different.


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## 2010hummerguy

The challenge I am running into is that we need a 7.1 sound card to attain full 4-way active crossover capabilities. There are limited high-end 7.1 sound cards out there. I would love to run a Xonar Essence STX but it requires the H6 daughter board which most ITX mobos cannot handle. So I'm researching external USB options, even ways to extend PCI-E outside of the mobo though this becomes prohibitively expensive.

My other idea is to have the output on the mobo modified. Even some companies like ASRock add sound mods to their own mobos like Elna coupling caps in the analog onboard audio. So I need to study the onboard audio of my mobo before I venture down this pathway


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## stingray72

PCI-E outside of the mobo is just a riser board right and a cable long enough to do what you want away from the pc case right? If so I bought some for a radeon 295x that I bought.


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## 2010hummerguy

Interesting...I'll have to read up on riser boards. Will there be issues with long PCI cables? I am admittedly new to this type of mod with mobos.


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## stingray72

Architect7 said:


> Interesting...I'll have to read up on riser boards. Will there be issues with long PCI cables? I am admittedly new to this type of mod with mobos.



If I remember right they had pretty long cables so no. Let me get the model number and a link to them for you.


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## stingray72

Mining Machine PCE164P N03 60cm 24" USB PCI E 1x to 16x Riser Card Extender New | eBay

heres one on ebay but i bought them online somewhere else and they had tons of them.


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## stingray72

Architect7 said:


> The challenge I am running into is that we need a 7.1 sound card to attain full 4-way active crossover capabilities. There are limited high-end 7.1 sound cards out there. I would love to run a Xonar Essence STX but it requires the H6 daughter board which most ITX mobos cannot handle. So I'm researching external USB options, even ways to extend PCI-E outside of the mobo though this becomes prohibitively expensive.
> 
> My other idea is to have the output on the mobo modified. Even some companies like ASRock add sound mods to their own mobos like Elna coupling caps in the analog onboard audio. So I need to study the onboard audio of my mobo before I venture down this pathway


Also why limit yourself with a mini itx board just go with something like a micro atx board. You can build your own custom case also.


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## Ultimateherts

stingray72 said:


> PCI-E outside of the mobo is just a riser board right and a cable long enough to do what you want away from the pc case right? If so I bought some for a radeon 295x that I bought.


PCI-E is not meant to be used outside the pc case. if you did you would have to enclose it somehow so that the card would not get damaged. With all that work you might as well run a USB card. USB AUDIO INTERFACES are the way to go because they are meant for stereo use in studios and because they have more INPUTS and OUTPUTS. Using a card meant for 7.1 creates issues because you are using in a way it was not intended to be used.

As for software you want to get a card that is ASIO driver compliant that way you can run VSTs. What I plan on doing is running Windows XP and customizing it to my needs. I have it customized down to a desktop screen and two large icons. The rest will be done via voice commands. For audio I will be running FOOBAR2000 along with this nice VST:


DSP Crossover for PC. Frequency Allocator.

It is simple to use and works perfectly for most of the DIYMA members.


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## stingray72

Ultimateherts said:


> PCI-E is not meant to be used outside the pc case. if you did you would have to enclose it somehow so that the card would not get damaged. With all that work you might as well run a USB card. USB AUDIO INTERFACES are the way to go because they are meant for stereo use in studios and because they have more INPUTS and OUTPUTS. Using a card meant for 7.1 creates issues because you are using in a way it was not intended to be used.
> 
> As for software you want to get a card that is ASIO driver compliant that way you can run VSTs. What I plan on doing is running Windows XP and customizing it to my needs. I have it customized down to a desktop screen and two large icons. The rest will be done via voice commands. For audio I will be running FOOBAR2000 along with this nice VST:
> 
> 
> DSP Crossover for PC. Frequency Allocator.
> 
> It is simple to use and works perfectly for most of the DIYMA members.


I knew about having to build a case but I planned to do that for the card anyway but the other stuff is good to know. Thanks for chiming in you saved me and the other guy some issues.


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## 2010hummerguy

Ultimateherts said:


> Using a card meant for 7.1 creates issues because you are using in a way it was not intended to be used.


I do not agree with this. To a proaudio tool it just sees the output as output, not a "7.1 card".

What USB audio interface do you recommend?



stingray72 said:


> Also why limit yourself with a mini itx board just go with something like a micro atx board. You can build your own custom case also.


I'm starting with an e3io which is ITX, hence why I am limited with its PCI-E options.


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## Ultimateherts

Architect7 said:


> I do not agree with this. To a proaudio tool it just sees the output as output, not a "7.1 card".
> 
> What USB audio interface do you recommend?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm starting with an e3io which is ITX, hence why I am limited with its PCI-E options.


With a AUDIO INTERFACE you also get the normal RCA outputs not the headphone type outputs you get on consumer SOUNDCARDS. As for recommendations I would have to research as I have never used that product or run Linux before. Windows just makes thing a lot easier as they have much much more driver and software support.


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## 2010hummerguy

Ultimateherts said:


> With a AUDIO INTERFACE you also get the normal RCA outputs not the headphone type outputs you get on consumer SOUNDCARDS. As for recommendations I would have to research as I have never used that.


So you recommend something you have never used?

And your only reason for not using a sound card is RCA vs. 3.5mm output?

Seriously, where is the ignore button?

Edit: Bad temper today, removed my earlier remark.


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## Waffle

Architect7 said:


> So you recommend something you have never used?
> 
> And your only reason for not using a sound card is RCA vs. 3.5mm output?
> 
> Seriously, where is the ignore button?


The guy knows what he's talking about. If you read what he said, he hasn't used Linux, but he has used the sound cards he is talking about.

I run a delta 1010lt and the RCA outputs make it super easy. The ASIO gives more control through software.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


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## 2010hummerguy

Then I would expect a better reason than the type of connector being used. Connector type is the least of my worries...I want quality in my signal, not to avoid spending $2 on a 3.5mm to RCA adapter.


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## crackinhedz

Architect7 said:


> I'm starting with an e3io which is ITX, hence why I am limited with its PCI-E options.


Why not use the Optical out to a DSP?


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## 2010hummerguy

crackinhedz said:


> Why not use the Optical out to a DSP?


<---Inserts foot in mouth, Helix DSP on the way


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## Justin Zazzi

Have you considered a VST host and plugins? Combine with ASIO and virtual cable and an 8 channel sound card (asus makes many great ones) for all the flexibility you could ever want.


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## REGULARCAB

Architect7 said:


> I'm guessing you didn't read any of this thread.
> 
> I feel like I'm taking crazy pills today.


So dude, you should run optical to a dsp   :laugh:


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## crackinhedz

Architect7 said:


> I'm guessing you didn't read any of this thread.
> 
> I feel like I'm taking crazy pills today.


yeah man sorry, was trying to read this thread from my ****ty iphone, missed that reply. Thought I was trying to be helpful. :mean:


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## Ultimateherts

Architect7 said:


> Then I would expect a better reason than the type of connector being used. Connector type is the least of my worries...I want quality in my signal, not to avoid spending $2 on a 3.5mm to RCA adapter.


Signal to Noise Ratio is much better on Audio Interfaces. Plain and simple they are just a lot better quality. If your favorite artists use them (and yes they all use some kind of Audio Interface) why wouldn't you? It's like trying to eat cereal with a fork, yes it can be done but why not just use a spoon. An Audio Interface being the spoon is this scenario. 
Go on to the site 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/

Just browse some of their threads and you can read about the differences. VST's are the way to go as there are virtually unlimited free ones and they are designed just for audio purposes.


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## NealfromNZ

Don't rule out FireWire options to get around the limitations of the itx space.
Thinking that motu.com may have some products that would fit the bill.

I was looking down a similar route for a while but sold out and went dsp-88r route instead.


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## Zippy

Architect7 said:


> That's the easy/expensive way out
> 
> I'd like to take advantage of some of the software options out there. With the right configuration, we are able to take advantage of a 64 bit architecture with 192khz resolution while saving $500-1k.
> 
> The only reason I'd consider outboard processing is for DAC/opamps and SNR advantages.


I get wanting to do the software bit. Here's some corrections to the rest. PCI bus is 16 bit. Mini PCI-x and PCI-e are 32 bit buses. I know the driver is 64 bit, but that's 64 bit cause the OS is 64 bit. The only card bus that's truly 64 bit is PCI-X. The only boards that support PCI-X are server grade ATX form factor($250+). Now, if you want a true 64 bit sound card that's 24/192, then you are looking at a M-Audio Audiophile 192 board($250-300). Oh, I forgot to mention the ECC memory you will need to use for the board, CPU, etc. 

So does the DSP look more appealing now with what you already have?


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## Justin Zazzi

Ultimateherts said:


> Signal to Noise Ratio is much better on Audio Interfaces. Plain and simple they are just a lot better quality. If your favorite artists use them (and yes they all use some kind of Audio Interface) why wouldn't you? It's like trying to eat cereal with a fork, yes it can be done but why not just use a spoon. An Audio Interface being the spoon is this scenario.
> Go on to the site


What are you talking about? Please define the term "audio interface" and how they are superior than everything else. Also, please compare and contrast them to the typical professional level sound cards that use DB-X connectors instead of RCA connectors, and please explain why the connector itself is responsible for so much of the performance of the system. Or, please stop talking about gear you have no experience with.



Architect7,
Why are you so interested in 64 bit architecture with 192khz resolution? Have you heard of the nyquist frequency? You can save yourself a lot of headache by lowering your goals to something more reasonable like 16/44 which is the resolution of nearly all source material and the limit of nearly all gear you can connect your CarPC to. I've been down this road and I'm trying to save you some work!


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## Lycancatt

the difference between a consumer grade 7.1 soundcard and a recording studio grade usb or firewire audio interface is pretty huge. for one thing, the audio interface has better dacs on both sides input and output, and for another, as stated previously, because they are for recording purposes the signal to noise ratio has to be higher for cleaner audio capture. Connectors are not the issue, its whats in the box, not how you get sound out of the box.

although I don't know why I'm bothering as the op seems like a real dick.

I use a presonous fire studio which has I think eight ins and six outs, I forget..haven't touched it in over a year but it was about $200 and supports 24 bit audio.


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## 2010hummerguy

Lycancatt said:


> although I don't know why I'm bothering as the op seems like a real dick.


I just don't get very excited with the spreading of misinformation and neither should anyone else. For real though, I appreciate your input, thanks for contributing.



Jazzi said:


> Have you considered a VST host and plugins? Combine with ASIO and virtual cable and an 8 channel sound card (asus makes many great ones) for all the flexibility you could ever want.


Yeah I am learning about VST right now. Is there a VST host/plugin combo you recommend that would get me dsp for all sources at thesound card level? I looked at Convolver but it seems to be tied to the media player, not the OS. I'd like the ability to process audio sourced from the browser, media player, and other applications.



Zippy said:


> So does the DSP look more appealing now with what you already have?


Yes...especially from a simplicity, noise and reliability perspective. Now I'm just not sure which DSP or audio interface will get me the sound I want.


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## Lycancatt

I'm glad you took my response basicly how I meant it, not a total insult but more a wtf? lol I have short patience sometimes too but what I've learned on forums is that people like to offer suggestions and opinions whether they are actually right or on topic, so I tend to not react anymore.

I would suggest the alpine h800 with the controller. it is not a cheap option but is by far and away the most flexible and user friendly of the dsps I've tried. I like the ability to tune via its controller or the pc and I like the multiple inputs and presets even more.


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## 2010hummerguy

I actually just bought a Helix DSP a second ago for next to nothing but the H800 may eventually be what I choose based on the many great things I've heard about it and I've always wanted to own one. Does it require the RUX if you connect to it via computer?


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## Lycancatt

it does not but then how will you do volume control? I suppose you could use the computer but digital outs don't like to be attenuated via software most of the time. does the helix have some kind of controller/volume knob? that's all you'd really need it for.


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## 2010hummerguy

Yeah the Helix uses RCA signal to control volume when using toslink input. Though not sure how this will work on my e3io carpc...I may need to use high level for volume control.


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## NealfromNZ

Needs the rux or Hu for audio control and source control

Your heading down the right route as multi channel high end out of a pc does cost.
Audio routing is the main issue. 
I spent months research various audio options and in the end have fallen back to a USB sabre async dac with optical out into a PPI-dsp-88r so will cover audio files between 44.1/16 to 96/24 bit. ( processor good for higher bit rates )


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## 2010hummerguy

Interesting, so you use the Sabre DAC as a digital filter before the PPI? Notice any sonic differences?

Just got Spotlite (Win8 Spotify app) loaded on the e3io and very excited to have new music in my truck every single day . Nice control layout. Currently routed via Toslink to my TEAC AG-H550.


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## Zippy

Architect7 said:


> Yes...especially from a simplicity, noise and reliability perspective. Now I'm just not sure which DSP or audio interface will get me the sound I want.


This is where toslink makes the sound card not matter so much. It's a pure digital signal out. Look for a sound card that supports 24/192 and has toslink output. Some integrated sound card provide that depending upon the board. 

The only DSP that support 24/192 input that I am aware of is the Arc PS-8. I know for a fact that audison processors cap out at 24/96 according to their documentation. If someone else knows of other DSPs that support 24/192 input please speak up. 

I work in IT on servers that cost into seven figures. I looked hard at doing this in my RAV4 using a lilliput touch screen monitor and intel atom 2700 based system. The cost and difficulty of doing it right was not worth doing over using consumer offerings. Especially if you want Bluetooth calling, iPhone integration, navigation, etc.


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## palldat

The 6to8 will play wharever you can throw at it up to 192/24.


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## ZeblodS

The miniDSP 2x8 + miniDIGI module will play up to 216k/24bits.


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## Zippy

ZeblodS said:


> The miniDSP 2x8 + miniDIGI module will play up to 216k/24bits.


Now that's impressive. Do the other module/plugins continue the support out to 216k/24bits?


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## palldat

ZeblodS said:


> The miniDSP 2x8 + miniDIGI module will play up to 216k/24bits.


That is wild...it is hard enough to find content for 192/24...where would one find that high a level of retail music?

I guess that would be great for the musician


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## 2010hummerguy

To my ears the MiniDSP also sounds super flat and no dynamics...flame suit on  My 2x8 next to a DRZ-9255 was like listening to a Ferrari vs. a snowmobile. Hence why there are no longer any minidsp boards in my home 

I see the WAF Nadja can go up to 24/192 but then overall delay is limited to 21ms.

I get that 192khz is overkill and possibly counterproductive...but something I've wanted to experiment with...


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## BigRed

palldat said:


> The 6to8 will play wharever you can throw at it up to 192/24.



It will handle that on the input but downsamples from there on the output side


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## Ultimateherts

Jazzi said:


> What are you talking about? Please define the term "audio interface" and how they are superior than everything else. Also, please compare and contrast them to the typical professional level sound cards that use DB-X connectors instead of RCA connectors, and please explain why the connector itself is responsible for so much of the performance of the system. Or, please stop talking about gear you have no experience with.


Ok so let make a few things clearer. I never meant the RCA connectors have better SQ I just meant they are a heck of a lot easier to use. Also what amps accept DB-X connectors? The answer is very few. I have used the gear I am recommending, just not with Linux as I have never used that OS at all. The only consumer grade sound card I would use is the Japanese Onkyo cards, but at $300+ each and they only have one set of RCA outputs I would pass. Also about using a 7.1 card and thinking an output is just an output, It might work it might not. If the software program recognizes the soundcard then the answer would be no because it would predefine the settings for you. A lot of the software now makes everything almost idiot proof so that the non technical can just plug it in and be running in minutes.


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## NealfromNZ

Architect7 said:


> Interesting, so you use the Sabre DAC as a digital filter before the PPI? Notice any sonic differences?
> 
> Just got Spotlite (Win8 Spotify app) loaded on the e3io and very excited to have new music in my truck every single day . Nice control layout. Currently routed via Toslink to my TEAC AG-H550.


Ive only tried it on the bench via AMC hifi amp and headphones and its reasonably clean. (DSP / eq in bypass )

What it does is do is allow more direct audio routing in windows so foobar talks direct to the sabre. The other plus is async mode and uses the sabre dac clock which is solid compared to an atom based processor trying to cope with windows 7. Basically computer sound glitch free.

I also take out and use the netbook / sabre for running the odd dance ( I DJ old time dance gigs every now and then)


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## ZeblodS

Zippy said:


> Now that's impressive. Do the other module/plugins continue the support out to 216k/24bits?


miniDIGI s an hardware module board, in order to add digital inputs to a 2x8 board.

I know that the communication between these boards are done in i²s encoded audio, and this format can go above 768/32bits. I guess it's the same for all other digital modules boards form miniDSP.



palldat said:


> That is wild...it is hard enough to find content for 192/24...where would one find that high a level of retail music?
> 
> I guess that would be great for the musician


No idea, most of my music are 44.1k/16bis or 48k/16bits. I had some in 192k/24bits, but in the car I was unable to tell the difference with the same song in 48k/16bits, so...



NealfromNZ said:


> What it does is do is allow more direct audio routing in windows so foobar talks direct to the sabre. The other plus is async mode and uses the sabre dac clock which is solid compared to an atom based processor trying to cope with windows 7. Basically computer sound glitch free.


Just by the way, the miniStreamer module might work with the miniDSP 2x8 board. (never tried, juste an assomption).
It is a USB to SPDIF or I²S converter, so you can use USB audio (with async mode, and not use the PC clock) to convert it directly in I²S which is the digital input of a 2x8 board. That way, the setup is glich free even under Windows with an Atom.


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## NealfromNZ

This is one source for 192/24

Linn Records


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## Ultimateherts

NealfromNZ said:


> This is one source for 192/24
> 
> Linn Records


Where's my Kcamp or Snootie Wild?


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## Ultimateherts

NealfromNZ said:


> This is one source for 192/24
> 
> Linn Records


Where's my Kcamp or Snootie Wild? Sorry for the derail...


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## NealfromNZ

Ultimateherts said:


> Where's my Kcamp or Snootie Wild? Sorry for the derail...


Not even on hdtracks.com ........
They obviously don't think too much of their track buying fans ;-)


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## Ultimateherts

NealfromNZ said:


> Not even on hdtracks.com ........
> They obviously don't think too much of their track buying fans ;-)


What about Liquidspins for Android with MAXD. They have a great library for new music. Going back to HDtracks and Linn records, it seems to me they only carry older music or non digital sounding music (hip hop , dance, billboard top 20 even).


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## NealfromNZ

Another source for tracks is SoundCloud - Share Your Sounds
Not so much in the way of main stream, but plenty of hi res recordings

Looks like an opportunity for a carpc skin.
One of the apps I'm running is riderunner ( basic version is freeware) riderunner
Will look into running sound cloud via foobar.


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## Broshi

I had high hopes that this was the thread I was looking for to solve my question about using VST plugins on a music player until you guys started getting fussed over bitrates and lost track of the actual question...


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## NealfromNZ

Key to the VSTs is getting the right audio hardware to run from the pc.

Its an expense route compared with the cost of dedicate car audio DSPs unless you want to go down a generic sound blaster (or old pro range) or maudio sound cards.

Bit rate and sample rates are very key in terms of hardware options. Getting 16bit / 4x khz options with enough outputs to go active is less of a challenge, but the equipment tends to be average audio quality or if high quality will be some older card that will lack drivers for win7/8.

So on the vst plugin front , checkout DSP Loudspeaker Processing Tools for PC. which has your basic output DSP for active speaker setups. For the output hardware side check motu.com.


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## Franco76

Hi Guys

The initial question was "What do you guys use for eq, TA, xover, etc.on your carpc?"

I use an old Acer one laptop with a cheapo 7.1 soundcard. 
The system runs Ubuntu server edition and uses ecasound as DSP.
This has all I need for adjusting X-over, peaks/notch, timealign, etc.
At the moment i´m trying to upgrade the system from being just a DSP to a fullblown carpc.
It´s just not easy when i´m cheap, lazy and not as skilled as I like to think 

For the linux setup this link has helped me alot 

Digital Crossover/EQ with Open-Source Software: HOWTO | Richard's Stuff 

Cheers
Franco76


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## ZeblodS

I use a carPC, but I will never trust a non real time operating system with such thing as Xover. I don't want my tweeters to burn if the software fail or if the process get stalled...

The only sound processing I do on my carPC is phase correction and linearization on the stéréo stream before a real DSP. If the computer or the software fail, all my gears are safe.

For the phase correction, I use the software Art Teknika Console, with the VST plugin ConvolverVST to apply a FIR phase corrections only on the output stream.
The link between the playback software and Console is made with Virtual Audio Cable and ASIO4ALL.


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## Franco76

ZeblodS said:


> I use a carPC, but I will never trust a non real time operating system with such thing as Xover. I don't want my tweeters to burn if the software fail or if the process get stalled...
> 
> The only sound processing I do on my carPC is phase correction and linearization on the stéréo stream before a real DSP. If the computer or the software fail, all my gears are safe.
> 
> For the phase correction, I use the software Art Teknika Console, with the VST plugin ConvolverVST to apply a FIR phase corrections only on the output stream.
> The link between the playback software and Console is made with Virtual Audio Cable and ASIO4ALL.



Makes sense! I have used more than a couple of hours making the system mute proberly. 
If I make a mistake, while fiddeling with xovers or channellevels, the system can easily blow tweeters or worse!


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## Ultimateherts

ZeblodS said:


> I use a carPC, but I will never trust a non real time operating system with such thing as Xover. I don't want my tweeters to burn if the software fail or if the process get stalled...


I have run a CARPC for many years now (off and on) and I have never had an issue like that. The software for our purposes (crossover/xover) have been tested extensively to avoid this. Don't forget the Earth was once thought to be flat. Without progress we will never move forward!


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## Thumper26

skimmed the first page and didn't read past, but i'm running optical out to a dsp with mine. In regards to the PCI riser cable, it's nothing a little fabrication can't fix, you really just need to grab an old pc case and cut out the section for pci mounts off of the back and attach it to your own case. If you're using the e3io, then that prolly won't happen. I'm building a custom case to fit my rear floorboard with mine.

Architect, good looking out on the software options. I wanted to go that way initially, but don't have the time or desire to make the time to get a software solution going and have things ready for the comp season, so I went with the lazy way to a Helix Pro DSP.


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## Ultimateherts

Thumper26 said:


> skimmed the first page and didn't read past, but i'm running optical out to a dsp with mine. In regards to the PCI riser cable, it's nothing a little fabrication can't fix, you really just need to grab an old pc case and cut out the section for pci mounts off of the back and attach it to your own case. If you're using the e3io, then that prolly won't happen. I'm building a custom case to fit my rear floorboard with mine.
> 
> Architect, good looking out on the software options. I wanted to go that way initially, but don't have the time or desire to make the time to get a software solution going and have things ready for the comp season, so I went with the lazy way to a Helix Pro DSP.


For me it's of cost issue and also the fact of redundancy. Why pay twice for something you only have to pay once for? Granted an awesome audio interface can cost well beyond the price of an outboard DSP (Rockford 360.3, Helix DSP etc).


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