# ES compression drivers



## funkalicious

Does anyone know which compression drivers come with ES horns?


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## oabeieo

funkalicious said:


> Does anyone know which compression drivers come with ES horns?


No, I heard Eric has a new driver picked out that's pretty tight. I would bet it performs nicely on his horn. I thought someone said a radian ????? 

I've tryed at least 10 diffrent sets of drivers on his horns on a quest to find one that isn't balls to the wall at 3-4Khz , and I discovered the drivers Eric selected were the best suited for this the whole time, subsequently wasting my money and time really, well I found a few gems , but by in large I have multiple sets of drivers doing nothing now, and I won't ever use them.


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## thehatedguy

He's making his own drivers.

Though I did tell him it would be cool to offer them with a Radian style diaphragm. You could get the mylar ones from Eric, if you wanted aluminum ones; you buy Radians, and if you wanted Beryllium; you buy the Truxent ones. So you could have the same driver in 3 styles of diaphragm materials to play with.


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## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> He's making his own drivers.


Oh dam!!!


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## funkalicious

Any timeline on the new drivers? Weren't the most recent ones from B&C?


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## thehatedguy

Selenium for some- the Utlras and Pros were Selenium...though he might have changed in the last couple of years.


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## Eric Stevens

I have used many drivers over the years starting with Radian, then B&C and recently with Selenium. My current CompNeo drivers are proprietary, Some of the parts will be familiar because I didnt open new tooling for the rear covers. 

More informtion to come soon when I launch a website.


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## oabeieo

Eric Stevens said:


> I have used many drivers over the years starting with Radian, then B&C and recently with Selenium. My current CompNeo drivers are proprietary, Some of the parts will be familiar because I didnt open new tooling for the rear covers.
> 
> More informtion to come soon when I launch a website.


Oh snap! Dood I frikkin can't wait !!! I want the 1st set!


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## funkalicious

Thanks for chiming in Eric. What are your parameters when picking/designing compression drivers? Does motor strength rule?


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## Eric Stevens

funkalicious said:


> Thanks for chiming in Eric. What are your parameters when picking/designing compression drivers? Does motor strength rule?


Its all about the system so you cant separate out one specific parameter to be the most important.

Bg is important, Proper phase plug design, voice coil to diaphragm termination, and suspension compliance related to rear cover volume are all important also. Diaphragm materials/mass enter into the mix also when considering the above parameters.


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## lsm

oabeieo said:


> Oh snap! Dood I frikkin can't wait !!! I want the 1st set!



I called DIBS already  





Just kidding oabeieo


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## oabeieo

lsm said:


> I called DIBS already
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just kidding oabeieo



Ain't no one takin my first set


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## thehatedguy

You guys might have to wait behind some of the former Team ID guys first.


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## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> You guys might have to wait behind some of the former Team ID guys first.


O yeah???? ...........


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## SteveH!

Eric Stevens said:


> Its all about the system so you cant separate out one specific parameter to be the most important.
> 
> Bg is important, Proper phase plug design, voice coil to diaphragm termination, and suspension compliance related to rear cover volume are all important also. Diaphragm materials/mass enter into the mix also when considering the above parameters.


sorry to resurrect an old topic. Eric, soundwise, how do the new comp neo drivers compare to the SACRED TAD 2000,series drivers?edited: insomnia hates typing


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## Eric Stevens

SteveH! said:


> sorry to resurrect an old topic. Eric, soundwise, how do the new comp neo drivers compare to the SACRED TAD 4000,series drivers?


I think you are referring to the TAD 2001, The 4000 was a large format driver and is not held in highregard like the 2001.

I havent done a side by side with them like I had with the CD2Comp many years ago. The 2001 was just better everywhere, still an incremental differencenot a realign your worlds difference. The CompNeo is better than the CD2Comp everywhere above 1500 hz but the larger rear cover on the CD2 helped it perform better on the bottom end


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## SteveH!

sounds like the comp neo will be an improvemeent in many ways. i hope it will be able to play down to 600 hz.


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## Eric Stevens

SteveH! said:


> sounds like the comp neo will be an improvemeent in many ways. i hope it will be able to play down to 600 hz.


800Hz is my recommendation, I have neve tried them at 600.


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## Lycancatt

fyi the tad 4000 series drivers are fantastic, but certainly not in a car. definitely something special in the pro world but I'd guess they dotn do well in a car at all.


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## subwoofery

Eric, what do you think about shallow slopes up high? Like 3kHz-4kHz @ 6dB? 
Ever tried it? 

Kelvin


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## oabeieo

I think my days of using a car horn below 1.5k are over. After owning 3 diffrent sets ( soon to be 4 sets) of HE midrange and or midbass that play up to 1.5, I like the sound of the cones under 1.5 better. Maybe just my car at the moment depicting that so I'll probably do the neoz also


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## dawaro

How does one go about purchasing the new drivers?


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## Eric Stevens

subwoofery said:


> Eric, what do you think about shallow slopes up high? Like 3kHz-4kHz @ 6dB?
> Ever tried it?
> 
> Kelvin


I understand it but have never tried it. A though of mine is that it would work great if you could get the right acoustic response of a 24dB slope. I like to minimize driver interaction when you have different path lengths to the listeners.


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## Eric Stevens

dawaro said:


> How does one go about purchasing the new drivers?


For now contact me by email or private message here.

eric at ejs audio dot com


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## Mic10is

Eric Stevens said:


> I understand it but have never tried it. A though of mine is that it would work great if you could get the right acoustic response of a 24dB slope. I like to minimize driver interaction when you have different path lengths to the listeners.


Ive experimented with it a few times and never liked how it sounded.
I tried around 8khz @6db/octave so it would be about 24db down by 1khz where I'd normally cross the horns.
and I tried a few combinations in between down to 4khz or so....

while overall seems ok, it just seemed to lose too much midrange detail and the images were really big and not as focused.

Some of the big advantages of using HLCDs is detail, clarity, and focus which seemed to lessened using a high XO pt and shallower slope


In general, using shallower slopes Ive found to result in overall good tonality but image size is larger and not as focused and detailed. Using steeper slopes resulted in much more defined images and focus and overall better detail in tonal response


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## oabeieo

Drivers location is revealed more with hard slopes IMO and shallow slopes have combing issues , that's why I like 12db , shallow enough , steep enough, good polarity and easy to set up.


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## Mic10is

Ive pretty much always used 24db on the low side and sometimes 12db on the high side, but I'm pretty much always a 24db person. 
Learned majority of my tuning from Eric over the years of him helping tune my own car...actually let me correct that...learned a lot my looking over Eric's settings after looking through them when i woke up from snoring in the passenger seat while he actually tuned


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## oabeieo

Mic10is said:


> Ive pretty much always used 24db on the low side and sometimes 12db on the high side, but I'm pretty much always a 24db person.
> Learned majority of my tuning from Eric over the years of him helping tune my own car...actually let me correct that...learned a lot my looking over Eric's settings after looking through them when i woke up from snoring in the passenger seat while he actually tuned



The more I think about it , if I had more than one eq my system I could make 24 db work a lot better for me . I understand level setting is where it's at , but sharing eq band at crossover reigon makes 12db easier to smooth out. Especially if I'm crossing right in one of the horn peaks


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## subwoofery

Mic10is said:


> Ive experimented with it a few times and never liked how it sounded.
> I tried around 8khz @6db/octave so it would be about 24db down by 1khz where I'd normally cross the horns.
> and I tried a few combinations in between down to 4khz or so....
> 
> while overall seems ok, it just seemed to lose too much midrange detail and the images were really big and not as focused.
> 
> Some of the big advantages of using HLCDs is detail, clarity, and focus which seemed to lessened using a high XO pt and shallower slope
> 
> 
> In general, using shallower slopes Ive found to result in overall good tonality but image size is larger and not as focused and detailed. Using steeper slopes resulted in much more defined images and focus and overall better detail in tonal response


Yep good tonality, that's it - exactly my findings  

Tried it after seeing a post from Jason stating that when he played with a phase software, the phase was flat if you paired that with a reversed 12dB/oct midrange. 

Something I never understood was how bad my midrange sounded with a 24dB LP - no matter where I set 1.2kHz, 2kHz, 2.5kHz 
Sounded great with a 12dB LP - my Eclipse was clearly playing tricks on me lol 

Anyway, I managed to get good cohesion between the mids and horns - did not think I lost anything, it actually sounded more detailed for me. 

I think that was a HP around 6kHz @ 6dB/oct slope. 

Kelvin


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## LumbermanSVO

I think I've seen the 6bd @6kHz number on this forum before for horns, but I can't remember what thread it was in.


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## T3mpest

Winlsow was the one who mentioned it hopefully he will chime in. I remember he said it was with the mini horns according to some horn sim program, gave a pretty flat response out of the box and had good enough driver protection


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## Mic10is

T3mpest said:


> Winlsow was the one who mentioned it hopefully he will chime in. I remember he said it was with the mini horns according to some horn sim program, gave a pretty flat response out of the box and had good enough driver protection


The idea behind it was an active way to do something similar to what the veritas horn filter did. It passively cuts about 1.2kto 6k by about 6db which are usually the peaky areas for most horns.


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## oabeieo

Mic10is said:


> The idea behind it was an active way to do something similar to what the veritas horn filter did. It passively cuts about 1.2kto 6k by about 6db which are usually the peaky areas for most horns.


So like a dual filter? That sound interesting , I wonder if the 90° Phase shift during that incline would make any noticeable diffrance, being that shift is on the high pass side so it would be before the crossover point. Sounds interesting, maybe good for some drivers that have a lot of peaks that eq can't tame. The cd10nd is one that comes to mind.


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## Mic10is

Its a notch filter. I couldnt think of the word this morning. Winslow (thathatedguy) posted the schematic for it a few different times. Pretty simple to make.
worked really well. Several of the guys on the old ID SQ team used them with their horns.


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## oabeieo

Mic10is said:


> Its a notch filter. I couldnt think of the word this morning. Winslow (thathatedguy) posted the schematic for it a few different times. Pretty simple to make.
> worked really well. Several of the guys on the old ID SQ team used them with their horns.


Oh okay!!! Yes I remember that. Winslow gave me the parts way way back in the day. It's works great! IIRC it was at like 3.6k or something. It sounded really good with the de45s . I sure would love to know how to design one for individual peaks so I could make one for specific drivers

It was a cap and a resistor that went in line on the RCA's


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## dawaro

Mic10is said:


> Its a notch filter. I couldnt think of the word this morning. Winslow (thathatedguy) posted the schematic for it a few different times. Pretty simple to make.
> worked really well. Several of the guys on the old ID SQ team used them with their horns.


Hopefully he can post it again. I have tried searching for it but came up empty...


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## Aldaa

oabeieo said:


> Oh okay!!! Yes I remember that. Winslow gave me the parts way way back in the day. It's works great! IIRC it was at like 3.6k or something. It sounded really good with the de45s . I sure would love to know how to design one for individual peaks so I could make one for specific drivers
> 
> It was a cap and a resistor that went in line on the RCA's


Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but I saw he linked this in another thread.

Car Audio - Series Notch Filter - Speaker Impedance Correction at Fs (Resonant Frequency)


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## oabeieo

Aldaa said:


> Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but I saw he linked this in another thread.
> 
> Car Audio - Series Notch Filter - Speaker Impedance Correction at Fs (Resonant Frequency)


Almost. That article refers to a zobel or a passive notch filter between the speaker and amp. The one in question is also passive but runs in between the rcas and deck or dsp. It was a very tiny cap and a resistor. 

Like I says , boy I would sure like to know how to make one , calculate the circuit and build . I would love to make a hard notch at 4K for the 2408h but bring it back up to not cut 3.1 or 5


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## thehatedguy

It is a passive line level EQ. From memory it was 2 caps and 2 resistors and you could tailor the final resistance to the input impedance of the amp.

Here's a few circuits that do a few different things but are PLL.

Dipole protos


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## thehatedguy

I don't have the schematic on this computer.

But I am pretty certain Kris aka SQRam still has it saved...I swear I saw him post it.


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## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> It is a passive line level EQ. From memory it was 2 caps and 2 resistors and you could tailor the final resistance to the input impedance of the amp.
> 
> Here's a few circuits that do a few different things but are PLL.
> 
> Dipole protos


That's right. It was two caps. And some math **** to figure out the amp thing. 

Is the old ID fourm cached somewhere it was on there for sure


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## SQram




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## thehatedguy

Told you he had it


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## oabeieo

Oh hott dam!!!!


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## oabeieo

Where is the notch centered ? Wasn't it 3.6k or was it a wideband attenuation with a notch


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## Eric Stevens

oabeieo said:


> Where is the notch centered ? Wasn't it 3.6k or was it a wideband attenuation with a notch


it appears to be a high frequency shelving filter not a notch filter.


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## thehatedguy

I think Eric is right. Mic sent the schematic to Todd Lulick (highly) and he did a measurement or simulation on the circuit, and it appeared to be a shelving filter. Which, I had always thought it was a notch to compensate for the power response increase in the 1-4k range.


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## thehatedguy

Maybe Eric can make something similar tailored to his horns and drivers? That filter really helped smooth things out if you didn't have EQ, and even helped when you had a ton of EQ. All of the ID team (pretty much all the east coast guys) used the filter successfully.


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## oabeieo

Yeah. It would be super cool to impliment something. I used with still had to eq but it worked good. I usually take a tone gen w/freq counter and sweep slowly over horns range and find exactly where the big ole peak is at (2.5-4K) anylize the Q and would love a notch filter that matches that peak. 

So many drivers so a recipe for a notch would be .... Stellar 

But in any case , I didn't know that about it either. So makes me wonder if a notch filter would even sound good or lead to problems.


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## HulkSmash

Regarding the shelving filter, how would you find out the amplifier input impedance? Is it a listed spec or a calculated spec?


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## oabeieo

HulkSmash said:


> Regarding the shelving filter, how would you find out the amplifier input impedance? Is it a listed spec or a calculated spec?


It's a listed spec . Usually . 

You can measure it as well IIRC . A ohm meter on the RCA inputs I think . 

I used the spec sheet from the amp. Idk if all amps have that spec tho


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## SQram

An ohm meter measures resistance, it won't measure impedance. Better off to go by manufacturers specifications.


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## oabeieo

SQram said:


> An ohm meter measures resistance, it won't measure impedance. Better off to go by manufacturers specifications.


Yeah that's what my gut told me . That makes sense . I just didn't want to not throw that option and then have some and throw back at me LOL yeah I can't remember so you would have to hook it up to a measurement tool like you measure a speaker and run the sweeper but only on the input side so you would need some sort of dummy load On the input??????


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## T3mpest

I bought some used horns many years ago that came with a "little black box" that I was told a team ID member had been using with his horns, it was supposed to be wired inline with the amp. 

I'm guessing that's what that was, I've always used it, so not sure what it would sound like without.


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## SQram

Veritas sold them with their horns, here's a picture of mine:


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## T3mpest

SQram said:


> Veritas sold them with their horns, here's a picture of mine:


That looks like what I have more or less, no label on mine though. I believe was told it was optimized for mini horns with a arc xxk amplifer, forget which model. I bought it back on the ECA forums, for the people that remember.

I think I know where it is.. I'll see if I can find it and snap a pic of mine lol.


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## lsm

I need to get a set of these made for my car!


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## Eric Stevens

lsm said:


> I need to get a set of these made for my car!


With your processoryou dont really need this. you can create a high frequency shelving filter that does the same thing but is adjustable


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## lsm

Eric Stevens said:


> With your processoryou dont really need this. you can create a high frequency shelving filter that does the same thing but is adjustable



Thanks Eric good to know


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## SQram

dawaro said:


> How does one go about purchasing the new drivers?





Eric Stevens said:


> For now contact me by email or private message here.
> 
> eric at ejs audio dot com




Eric,

Just to clarify; are your new compression drivers available now, or are they still in R&D?


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## edzyy

Can the ES horn bodies be modded to work with 1.5 or 2" horns?


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## thehatedguy

1.5 can go, but not optimal as the reflector isn't exactly where it should be. The big bodies I have at home were opened up by me for a 1.5" driver.

2" no way. Well, and do any sort of treble. The geometry of the reflector and height of the horn prevents that. And I don't know how bad the treble would be at what frequency...you'd want a tweeter. Finding a tweeter that you could use and fit in your car would be a whole other story.


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## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> 1.5 can go, but not optimal as the reflector isn't exactly where it should be. The big bodies I have at home were opened up by me for a 1.5" driver.
> 
> 2" no way. Well, and do any sort of treble. The geometry of the reflector and height of the horn prevents that. And I don't know how bad the treble would be at what frequency...you'd want a tweeter. Finding a tweeter that you could use and fit in your car would be a whole other story.


You've done it? Cool . So , was it all you hoped it'd be? Or did a good 1" do as much as the horn would take and not worth the effort?


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## Eric Stevens

SQram said:


> Eric,
> 
> Just to clarify; are your new compression drivers available now, or are they still in R&D?


The new drivers are avaialable now. R&D is done and production drivers are in stock. I am now shipping the CompNeo drivers and HLCD sets.


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## SteveH!

Eric- i had a crazy question. do you think your new driver design would work well in a prosound coax setup? it would be actively high passed.


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## Eric Stevens

Yes they are perfectly at home in a prosound aplication.


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## SteveH!

awesomeness! do you have spec sheets available for them?


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## Count FurFur

How can one order these drivers from Eric?


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## LumbermanSVO

Send him a PM


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## oabeieo

The comps look at LOT like a b&c de120 , but don't be fooled. After measuring them they are far diffrent. The magnet on bottoms diffrent also the bolt holes is a 2x4 where the b&c is a 1x3. . It appears the only thing on here that's B&C is the cover . I haven't opened one up yet to see the diaphram, this set is for a customer so I don't want to have any accidents. The drivers play low, and sound super good , I like how 3-4khz range is not so dramatic. I am curious what sort of diaphrams are in them. Maybe Eric can chime in . There very very nice drivers tho.


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## Eric Stevens

Actually they are similar to the DE400 in size. And it is the same rear cover.

It is a high temperature polymer 1.75" diaphragm with a conventional 2 slit phase plug.

Glad you liked them.




oabeieo said:


> The comps look at LOT like a b&c de120 , but don't be fooled. After measuring them they are far diffrent. The magnet on bottoms diffrent also the bolt holes is a 2x4 where the b&c is a 1x3. . It appears the only thing on here that's B&C is the cover . I haven't opened one up yet to see the diaphram, this set is for a customer so I don't want to have any accidents. The drivers play low, and sound super good , I like how 3-4khz range is not so dramatic. I am curious what sort of diaphrams are in them. Maybe Eric can chime in . There very very nice drivers tho.


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## edzyy

Those look good

How low can they be crossed? 800hz?


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## Eric Stevens

edzyy said:


> Those look good
> 
> How low can they be crossed? 800hz?


On the full size horn, yes they can .


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## Count FurFur

Eric Stevens said:


> On the full size horn, yes they can .


I sent you a pm


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## oabeieo

Installed another set the ES compneo CDs on minis . 

Pretty sick lil drivers , 
This driver is very very smooth on a mini, it's remarkable how little eq it takes in the HOM bands. From 1k to about 10k there no more than 3db on any center. Keeps akward amplitude induced phase shift at a min, dosent have any raspiness to them. 
Down low very smooth, horn doesn't show poor mouth termination attributes as much at all. 

Very well balanced for this horn. It's hard to say it's the best I've heard yet , only because I have so many favorites, but it performs unusually good on these horns.


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## oabeieo

Who has the compNeo and who doesn't? 


I'm just curious how many folks on here have it . 
And I'm curious why I haven't seen it exploding amongst horn users.


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## Elgrosso

I do!
Had the pro before, my first horns and they were already great.
Second pair are the neocomp because I wanted a bit more highs.
And surprise, not only I got more highs, but also a smoother response all the way up!


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## LumbermanSVO

I have the mylar CD2 Comps, they don't go super high, but that midrange is oh so sweet.


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## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> I do!
> Had the pro before, my first horns and they were already great.
> Second pair are the neocomp because I wanted a bit more highs.
> And surprise, not only I got more highs, but also a smoother response all the way up!


Yeah it's very smooth. But not so much as to call it laid back. I'm extremely impressed how it digs down to 800 at full power with no break up and extend to 20k. 

Previously I thought I was hearing breakup in 2.5k-4K range and even measured some non linear distortion that jumped up. After taking the minidsp off the horns that breakup is gone. After some extensive troubleshooting I discovered my focal amp doesn't like a low volt gain structure. The mini put out 2vmax and the prs does a healthy 5v. Something about that amp at 8ohm causes some funky stuff gained up more than 1/4way. 

I've got to say tho now that I can really hear this driver on under dash arrangement and that problem fixed I am extremely impressed with it. And remeasured and distortion is way down. 
What's weird is I have another polymide cd (cd10nd) and it's garbage compared to the CompNeo. I saw that the de400tn is titanium but has a copper ring. 
I'm scared to compare.. I've spent too much on CDs lately but it would be a interesting comparison.
And I wonder if the diaphragms are interchangeable. Would like to swap parts around and experiment


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## oabeieo

LumbermanSVO said:


> I have the mylar CD2 Comps, they don't go super high, but that midrange is oh so sweet.


I had a set of those. There good. The ole DE25 This one kicks its ass tho. 
Dood you really should hit Eric up for a set. And you won't have to weld I-beams in your dash to mount them. There very lightweight. A small 14" zip tie holds them fine. Oh wait ..... you already done the welding lol  well you'll gain 2hp from the weight reduction and save on brake pads  think of it like that and now you have to get them


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## LumbermanSVO

oabeieo said:


> I had a set of those. There good. This one kicks its ass tho.
> Dood you really should hit Eric up for a set. And you won't have to weld I-beams in your dash to mount them. There very lightweight. A small 14" zip tie holds them fine. Oh wait ..... you already done the welding lol  well you'll gain 2hp from the weight reduction and save on brake pads  think of it like that and now you have to get them


It's a tough decision for many reasons. While my drivers are about 13 years old now, I probably have about 100 hours on them. It's hard to ditch something that has so little use, especially when they pair with the Audax 7's so damn well. Also since I bought them new 13 years ago, it's hard give up on something that you've hung on to for so long.

However, I did do exactly that with the IDMax 12's in favor of the WGTI 15's. At least I was able to repurpose the 12's into the home theater. Well, until the SI 24's show up anyway...

Stop trying to talk me into more madness! 

It's also tough to pull the trigger on new drivers since I know it'll likely be a year before I have something resembling a horn friendly dash again.


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## oabeieo

LumbermanSVO said:


> It's a tough decision for many reasons. While my drivers are about 13 years old now, I probably have about 100 hours on them. It's hard to ditch something that has so little use, especially when they pair with the Audax 7's so damn well. Also since I bought them new 13 years ago, it's hard give up on something that you've hung on to for so long.
> 
> However, I did do exactly that with the IDMax 12's in favor of the WGTI 15's. At least I was able to repurpose the 12's into the home theater. Well, until the SI 24's show up anyway...
> 
> Stop trying to talk me into more madness!
> 
> It's also tough to pull the trigger on new drivers since I know it'll likely be a year before I have something resembling a horn friendly dash again.


there shiny


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## LumbermanSVO

Ok, that got a real laugh out of me!


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## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Yeah it's very smooth. But not so much as to call it laid back. I'm extremely impressed how it digs down to 800 at full power with no break up and extend to 20k.
> 
> Previously I thought I was hearing breakup in 2.5k-4K range and even measured some non linear distortion that jumped up. After taking the minidsp off the horns that breakup is gone. After some extensive troubleshooting I discovered my focal amp doesn't like a low volt gain structure. The mini put out 2vmax and the prs does a healthy 5v. Something about that amp at 8ohm causes some funky stuff gained up more than 1/4way.
> 
> I've got to say tho now that I can really hear this driver on under dash arrangement and that problem fixed I am extremely impressed with it. And remeasured and distortion is way down.
> What's weird is I have another polymide cd (cd10nd) and it's garbage compared to the CompNeo. I saw that the de400tn is titanium but has a copper ring.
> I'm scared to compare.. I've spent too much on CDs lately but it would be a interesting comparison.
> And I wonder if the diaphragms are interchangeable. Would like to swap parts around and experiment


Oh yeah the distortion plots were amazing!
I'll talk by memory, but last time I checked I think I had around 1% everywhere.
Sometime up to 2% if I mess up too much with EQ.
But I'll check to be sure I don't bs.


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## Patrick Bateman

For my own edification, a comparison of the DE400 that Eric mentioned on the last page, and the DE500 that Geddes seems to favor these days:

B&C DE400 vs 500
power handling : 50 / 50
voice coil diameter : 1.7" / 1.7"
throat diameter : 1" / 1"
diaphragm : polyimide / titanium

So I guess the B&C drivers are identical, but with different diaphragms?

Here's a response curve of each:


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## Patrick Bateman

oabeieo said:


> Yeah it's very smooth. But not so much as to call it laid back. I'm extremely impressed how it digs down to 800 at full power with no break up and extend to 20k.
> 
> Previously I thought I was hearing breakup in 2.5k-4K range and even measured some non linear distortion that jumped up. After taking the minidsp off the horns that breakup is gone. After some extensive troubleshooting I discovered my focal amp doesn't like a low volt gain structure. The mini put out 2vmax and the prs does a healthy 5v. Something about that amp at 8ohm causes some funky stuff gained up more than 1/4way.
> 
> I've got to say tho now that I can really hear this driver on under dash arrangement and that problem fixed I am extremely impressed with it. And remeasured and distortion is way down.
> What's weird is I have another polymide cd (cd10nd) and it's garbage compared to the CompNeo. I saw that the de400tn is titanium but has a copper ring.
> I'm scared to compare.. I've spent too much on CDs lately but it would be a interesting comparison.
> And I wonder if the diaphragms are interchangeable. Would like to swap parts around and experiment


Here's some food for thought:

If you look at the response curves for a lot of modern compression drivers, you'll notice that the thing that's limiting the low end isn't the horn it's mounted on, *it's the back chamber of the horn.* For instance, those little neodymium BMS drivers you clued me in on, their back chamber is tiny. And due to that, there's just no way to get them to play below about 900hz.

It's the same idea as a subwoofer, you need a decent sized box to play low.









Here's a graph of the B&C DE500, to illustrate what I mean.

If you look at a lot of the older compression drivers, from the 60s - 80s, they were much much larger. *Due to having a larger back chamber, you can get them to play a lil' bit lower.*

I'm not going to lie, this is kinda splitting hairs, but if you're hellbent on getting down to 600hz, it's something to look at.









Personally, I am too cheap to pay $2000 for a set of TADs. But JBL sold a ton of large format compression drivers, *and you can frequently swap diaphragms around.* For instance, the JBL 2470 that's pictured above is pretty forgettable with the stock diaphragms, but stick some aluminum diapragms on there and you can play to about 16000hz. That's not quite as amazing as the beryllium diaphragms on the TAD 2001, but the price is 10% as much. I paid about $300 for my JBL 2470s with brand new Radian diaphragms, but I see a set on eBay today for $200.

Besides featuring a larger back chamber for a lower F3, these large format compression drivers frequently have some other nice features. Mine have silver (yes silver, not copper) shorting rings, and an Alnico motor. I know Jason isn't a fan, I believe he compared them to "foghorns" lol.

I'm not an expert on the Altec stuff, but I believe the Altecs that Richard Clark recommended and sold to Mark Eldredge had a similar design. IIRC, the Altec has a phase plug that's patented and more advanced. (tangerine phase plug.) But YMMV, BMS uses a very simple phase plug and they sound great.


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## Elgrosso

Interesting!
I was looking at some Faital recently, the fh104/5/6/7/8 serie
The 108 looks very smooth: http://www.faitalpro.com/en/products/HF_Drivers/product_details/datasheet.php?id=502010170
Anybody tried them?


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## SQram

Those Fatials do look nice on paper, but take note their scaling is in 10db steps where as the B&C's are 5db. Wouldn't be quite so smooth with similar scaling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oabeieo

Patrick Bateman said:


> Here's some food for thought:
> 
> If you look at the response curves for a lot of modern compression drivers, you'll notice that the thing that's limiting the low end isn't the horn it's mounted on, *it's the back chamber of the horn.* For instance, those little neodymium BMS drivers you clued me in on, their back chamber is tiny. And due to that, there's just no way to get them to play below about 900hz.
> 
> It's the same idea as a subwoofer, you need a decent sized box to play low.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a graph of the B&C DE500, to illustrate what I mean.
> 
> If you look at a lot of the older compression drivers, from the 60s - 80s, they were much much larger. *Due to having a larger back chamber, you can get them to play a lil' bit lower.*
> 
> I'm not going to lie, this is kinda splitting hairs, but if you're hellbent on getting down to 600hz, it's something to look at.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I am too cheap to pay $2000 for a set of TADs. But JBL sold a ton of large format compression drivers, *and you can frequently swap diaphragms around.* For instance, the JBL 2470 that's pictured above is pretty forgettable with the stock diaphragms, but stick some aluminum diapragms on there and you can play to about 16000hz. That's not quite as amazing as the beryllium diaphragms on the TAD 2001, but the price is 10% as much. I paid about $300 for my JBL 2470s with brand new Radian diaphragms, but I see a set on eBay today for $200.
> 
> Besides featuring a larger back chamber for a lower F3, these large format compression drivers frequently have some other nice features. Mine have silver (yes silver, not copper) shorting rings, and an Alnico motor. I know Jason isn't a fan, I believe he compared them to "foghorns" lol.
> 
> I'm not an expert on the Altec stuff, but I believe the Altecs that Richard Clark recommended and sold to Mark Eldredge had a similar design. IIRC, the Altec has a phase plug that's patented and more advanced. (tangerine phase plug.) But YMMV, BMS uses a very simple phase plug and they sound great.


 I'm not hell-bent on getting down below 1K , I just want to eliminate break up modes really , low distortion, and less Eq work and a good top end and have a really good phase match to midrange. Es drivers do that pretty dam good .
20 408H it still my beloved favorite to date , but it won't even reach 1K , which is why I go back to the ES driver . 


On another note have you seen the new DE 550 ? 2" polymide vs 1.7". 
Another must try in my book .

Yeah I'd also seems like the bigger back chamber also reduces efficiency and promotes breakup modes on the dome. But I'm not an expert on that just a thinker . 

The 4552nd reminds me a lot of that 20 408H yet it needs so much more EQ .
And it kind of seems like it changes frequency response on its own depending on how hot it gets


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## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Interesting!
> I was looking at some Faital recently, the fh104/5/6/7/8 serie
> The 108 looks very smooth: http://www.faitalpro.com/en/products/HF_Drivers/product_details/datasheet.php?id=502010170
> Anybody tried them?


Is that annular ring ?


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## Elgrosso

SQram said:


> Those Fatials do look nice on paper, but take note their scaling is in 10db steps where as the B&C's are 5db. Wouldn't be quite so smooth with similar scaling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fair enough, but I'd say they still look a little smoother, especially 2-6khz.
But well once in the car who knows...





oabeieo said:


> Is that annular ring ?


Ketone dome (as if I knew what it means )

FaitalPRO | HF Drivers


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## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> Fair enough, but I'd say they still look a little smoother, especially 2-6khz.
> But well once in the car who knows...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ketone dome (as if I knew what it means )
> 
> FaitalPRO | HF Drivers


So that's the HF108 
They do have annular cd but that would be the hf107. 
Keytone is polymer . 

But the HF 107 is annular and polymer . Wants to be crossed at 1.2
That might be pretty good if the engineering is as good as the BMS

http://www.faitalpro.com/en/products/HF_Drivers/


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## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> So that's the HF108
> They do have annular cd but that would be the hf107.
> Keytone is polymer .
> 
> But the HF 107 is annular and polymer . Wants to be crossed at 1.2
> That might be pretty good if the engineering is as good as the BMS
> 
> FaitalPRO | HF Drivers


So I quickly searched differences on shapes/materials for cds.
It seems it’s the same than for regular tweeters, like annular will have better dispersion lower and higher in FR, less distortion.
And polymer vs metal is more about the break ups, higher but stronger for the latter.
Is it right?


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## Eric Stevens

Like everything else in the Universe, with compression drivers it is a matter of trade offs, trick is finding a good balance that achieves the intended outcome. The different styles of compression drivers have there advantages and dis-advantages. Annular perform better in the upper octave but sacrifice lower octave performance. Radial phase plugs with a dome perform good but have some phase issues that wreak havoc , A conventional dome with circumferential slits is probably the best overall design, and in easy to assemble and manufacture designs achieve good performance everywhere without being the best anywhere, but with proper phase plug design and dome geometry with exotic materials used for the dome structure the conventional dome with circumferential slits can be the best everywhere for example TAD TD2001.

With Compression drivers like with direct radiators the shape and material of the diaphragm determine the break up modes and resonances that affect the frequency response.


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## oabeieo

That makes a ton of sence.

I do have to say tho it is a whole bunch of fun trying different ones just for the sake of tryin stuff out. So many times a dome 2 slit will sound the same or very close to the same as others. that continuity makes it easy to tell what different dome materials sound like. 

I been curious about annular rings because the 2408H is so sick and trying to find one that has those attributes or trade offs but also maintaining a usable low end. But what Eric says makes me think an annular won't ever be able to have a smooth low order natural roll off in the low end responce. I suppose if a annulus was too big it wouldn't be small enough to have the benifits up high that they do. it's still fun to try the next best thing when these things come to market


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## Eric Stevens

oabeieo said:


> I been curious about annular rings because the 2408H is so sick and trying to find one that has those attributes or trade offs but also maintaining a usable low end. But what Eric says makes me think an annular won't ever be able to have a smooth low order natural roll off in the low end responce. I suppose if a annulus was too big it wouldn't be small enough to have the benifits up high that they do. it's still fun to try the next best thing when these things come to market


The smaller radiating area of the annular ring is why they are better on the top with less mass and good phase performance of the design. but the small radiating area is also the reason they dont play well on the lower side. The lack of low end is the reason BMS and JBL have both made coax versions.

The phase plug on the TAD is a major reason why they work so well. The upper frequencies always come from very near the voice coil and having a slit of the phase plug right there is key. But another aspect is having a dome geometry that can create equal path lengths on all slits at the converging poing of the phase plug so there is no cancellation due to phase anomoly. The Beryllium diaphragm is very stiff and very light so it can work with the taller dome profile.


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## Patrick Bateman

oabeieo said:


> I been curious about annular rings because the 2408H is so sick and trying to find one that has those attributes or trade offs but also maintaining a usable low end. But what Eric says makes me think an annular won't ever be able to have a smooth low order natural roll off in the low end responce. I suppose if a annulus was too big it wouldn't be small enough to have the benifits up high that they do. it's still fun to try the next best thing when these things come to market


I opted for the 4540nd in my 2009 project because it was the only compression driver in the world that fit. (And the 4540nd is virtually identical to the 2408H, but the latter has a more elaborate phase plug.)

But it kinda ruined me for all of the other compression drivers. I seem to be alone in this respect; nearly everyone out there is running the larger compression drivers. If I had to speculate, maybe that's because most of the guys I know that run horns and waveguides are older than me, and perhaps their hearing isn't as good above 10khz.

To my ears, there are only three ways to exceed the 4540ND:

1) Spend a pile of money on a pair of TADs
2) put a ribbon on a waveguide
3) I've found that if you're willing to build your own waveguides, the Dayton RS28 sounds a little bit better. (Not a lot, a little.) But that's a big "if." The RS28 will NOT work on a waveguide that has a narrow coverage angle. Basically the RS28 has a diverging wavefront (because it's a dome.) And due to that diverging wavefront, it needs to be mounted on a waveguide or horn that has a relatively large angle at the throat. IE, if you're using a compression driver, the exit angle of your compression driver is something like ten degrees. And due to that, you can use a horn or waveguide with a narrow angle at the throat. But with a dome like the RS28, the entrance angle has to be quite wide, like 45 degrees or higher. If you don't follow that rule, the entire top octave is AWOL, due to the mismatch between the wavefront being produced by the RS28 and the entrance angle of the waveguide.

I guess if I had a ton of time to kill I'd make three or four waveguides for the RS28, each with a different angle at the throat, and see which one measures the best. Because it's not 100% clear what the actual wavefront shape of the RS28 is, we can only speculate based on trial and error. If there was some way to videotape sound waves this would be a lot easier


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## thehatedguy

18sound has a hybrid phase plug that is both annular and radial in some of their drivers.


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## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> So I quickly searched differences on shapes/materials for cds.
> It seems it’s the same than for regular tweeters, like annular will have better dispersion lower and higher in FR, less distortion.
> And polymer vs metal is more about the break ups, higher but stronger for the latter.
> Is it right?



Hope That answered it for you. 
I would say in 100% honesty tho if your thinking about trying something different you will only be able to tell tiny differences and imho es compNeo sounds as good/better than everything out there in the same price range and there's not much better as far as digging deep and still maintaining a really good top end sparkle. 

I would definitely recommend a set of 2408H originals and not the version 2 of it. With BNIB original jBL diaphragms with a 2218H 2way combo at least once in your life (and before they are impossible to find working cones that aren't soggy and destroyed beyond use) That combo is down right crazy good. Something about that combo in the 500-5k range is just exciting and just plain rips so good. The lacking 100-300hz response will drive you nuts after a little bit but your enclosures might augment that and make it ok. In a 4 way the 2118 is pointless when a 3 way with a different midbass just plain works better (in a car at least too many crossovers in midbass kinda ruins things) ... if your up to tryin new things. 

After reading what Eric posted I think I'm going to opt out of trying the fatial for a while and the de550 and focus on getting my TADs up and running. I can't frikkin wait either.


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## oabeieo

Patrick Bateman said:


> I opted for the 4540nd in my 2009 project because it was the only compression driver in the world that fit. (And the 4540nd is virtually identical to the 2408H, but the latter has a more elaborate phase plug.)


Isn't the 4540 and the 2408h-v1 the exact same? Or is it like the v2


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## thehatedguy

BMS 4540= JBL 2407.

2408s came about because the engineers at Harmon thought the design was overly complicated and expensive to produce...so they created the 2408.


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## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> Hope That answered it for you.
> I would say in 100% honesty tho if your thinking about trying something different you will only be able to tell tiny differences and imho es compNeo sounds as good/better than everything out there in the same price range and there's not much better as far as digging deep and still maintaining a really good top end sparkle.


Definitely, and thank you Eric for the explanation.
You're right I'm just curious and usually want to make my opinion test by myself.
But with horns that I don't know enough about I think for now I'll just follow for now.



oabeieo said:


> I would definitely recommend a set of 2408H originals and not the version 2 of it. With BNIB original jBL diaphragms with a 2218H 2way combo at least once in your life (and before they are impossible to find working cones that aren't soggy and destroyed beyond use) That combo is down right crazy good. Something about that combo in the 500-5k range is just exciting and just plain rips so good. The lacking 100-300hz response will drive you nuts after a little bit but your enclosures might augment that and make it ok. In a 4 way the 2118 is pointless when a 3 way with a different midbass just plain works better (in a car at least too many crossovers in midbass kinda ruins things) ... if your up to tryin new things.
> 
> After reading what Eric posted I think I'm going to opt out of trying the fatial for a while and the de550 and focus on getting my TADs up and running. I can't frikkin wait either.


I need to hear these 2118, have enough drivers and tuning for the next 3 months I think, I need to restrain myself and stay on focus now


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## thehatedguy

I have some 2119Hs for my car. Little newer than the 2118s and little higher power handling...very hard to find, but do pop up used on occasion.


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## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> I have some 2119Hs for my car. Little newer than the 2118s and little higher power handling...very hard to find, but do pop up used on occasion.



What! 

For sale perhaps?


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## lsm

oabeieo said:


> What!
> 
> For sale perhaps?


Don't you have enough already   :laugh:


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## thehatedguy

There is also the 228g and h from the AC22/23 speakers. Nice stamped basket driver...copper cap on pole. Used some in the Econoline home speaker project.

JBL 364707 002 JBL Driver | Full Compass


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## Jscoyne2

So I see alot of talk about horns and such on diyma. Whats so special about them? Is there a link to info on how these work and pros/cons and such

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


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## thehatedguy

JBL cone driver specs:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/thiele small parameters/theile parameters.pdf

So you can compare those, the 2118s and 2119s.


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## oabeieo

Hey that's even better. A brand new jbl that specs almost the same . 
Nice .


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## thehatedguy

The 228s have 2x the xmax as the 2118/2119s, little lower fs, with roughly the same Qts...would need to plug the numbers in to get the sensitivity. Stamped basket though...but not flimsy. Never heard them though. Price isn't bad for new jbl speakers...lot less than BNIB 2119s for sure.


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## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> The 228s have 2x the xmax as the 2118/2119s, little lower fs, with roughly the same Qts...would need to plug the numbers in to get the sensitivity. Stamped basket though...but not flimsy. Never heard them though. Price isn't bad for new jbl speakers...lot less than BNIB 2119s for sure.


I never cared one bit about basket resonance. Not to minimize it, I just like cast because it looks cool. Lol 

This might be a real good find.


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## Elgrosso

thehatedguy said:


> JBL cone driver specs:
> 
> http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/thiele small parameters/theile parameters.pdf
> 
> So you can compare those, the 2118s and 2119s.


Interesting! For the VAS, I hope they switched to cu ft and not liters for the 2119


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## thehatedguy

Well and it doesn't have 6 feet of extra flange either...you guys know the flanges on the 2118/19 makes those guys nearly as large as the 2123s, which are 10s.


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## Elgrosso

Hop: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=262680770500


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## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> Well and it doesn't have 6 feet of extra flange either...you guys know the flanges on the 2118/19 makes those guys nearly as large as the 2123s, which are 10s.


 so it's actually at eight instead of a 6 1/2 ...sold! 

Just ordered a set


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## Elgrosso

oabeieo said:


> so it's actually at eight instead of a 6 1/2 ...sold!
> 
> Just ordered a set


The 228s? Got some of the 2119s


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## oabeieo

Elgrosso said:


> The 228s? Got some of the 2119s


The 228s by god. 6mm xmax, copper cap, edge wound, 70fs, 2.5" coil, low qts for small box. Could be a champ . And it's BNIB so I can be the one to melt the bobbin to the cone  and the beautiful thing is if they suck I already got someone to buy them from me.


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## Blazemore

Guess there's not a spec sheet out for the 228 giving the dimensions? I've searched and came up blank.


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## oabeieo

Blazemore said:


> Guess there's not a spec sheet out for the 228 giving the dimensions? I've searched and came up blank.


 I googled it found a JBL page that had a whole bunch of drivers listed with all the parameters they had about 100 different drivers on it and it was in there with that it doesn't show response curves or anything like that is just ts stuff and I think it's your mounting depth also 

Hold on I'll try and find it

Parameters for JBL 228H? - diyAudio


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## thehatedguy

Post 108 had the same link...


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## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> Post 108 had the same link...


Yeah it did, I googled and only found the same page I was looking for mag response and impedance peak . To no avail.
Well just have to wait n see what it does.


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## Elgrosso

Too bad there's missing info on both but not on the same spot.
Maybe this would help to check the fr? Below 1.6khz, 92db? but more power handling
https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/JBL_AC18_26.v1.pdf

What else used these guys?


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## Elgrosso

Jscoyne2 said:


> So I see alot of talk about horns and such on diyma. Whats so special about them? Is there a link to info on how these work and pros/cons and such
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


Btw, here's a good start, Imthink there's also a bunch of links there:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/294329-horn-not-horn-horn.html


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## Blazemore

oabeieo said:


> Yeah it did, I googled and only found the same page I was looking for mag response and impedance peak . To no avail.
> Well just have to wait n see what it does.


Can you post the mounting depth and OD when you get them.


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## oabeieo

Blazemore said:


> Can you post the mounting depth and OD when you get them.


Absolutely


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Jscoyne2 said:


> So I see alot of talk about horns and such on diyma. Whats so special about them? Is there a link to info on how these work and pros/cons and such
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


Conventional loudspeakers are (mostly) omnipolar. IE, they project sound in all directions.

Horns and waveguides project the sound in one direction. By doing this, they reduce the influence of your room on the sound. A nice little side effect is that it takes less power to achieve a given SPL. (Because you're not wasting energy putting sound all over the room, horns are directional.)

Line arrays share many of these features.

There are some new cardioid arrays that can do the things that horns can do, but in a much smaller package. (See Beolab 90)


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## Blazemore

oabeieo said:


> Absolutely


Any updates?


----------



## oabeieo

Blazemore said:


> Any updates?


I canceled the order. Sorry forget to update. 

Ended up getting two more hd600/4s I decided to do something completely different. 

I think I'm going get car version of my 6g40s which is 4ohm PRO6WND
As a midrange bridged to a 600/4 and keep the 6ND430s bridged to another 600/4 and es compNeo bridged on a fps4160 and Two 10s bridged on another 600/4 and I'm definitely selling my subs and going with either dyns or w6JL 10s
On a 1200/1 

8s just will not fit in my kicks and to keep a horn under dash. 
So if I do go into doors than my car worn work right for a two seat demo. 
I have considered just doing it and making it a one seat car, but I have a thing against time alignment. So .....yeah . Sorry . 

Also I'm buying a house in march so when I do I can start doing some sweet custom. I have been garageless for last few years and don't care to work down at work on my own car that often. I always get interrupted and can't get stuff done. 






image hosting 10mb limit


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