# Staging and the Relevance of the Center Channel in Car Audio?



## Lexingtonian (Jan 15, 2017)

It's been a while since I've been heavily involved with Car Audio. Since 1997 to be exact. For several years I worked as an installer for a Central Kentucky Audio shop that sold Eclipse, Fultron (before it was Memphis), JL Audio, Savard (till defunct), American Bass, JVC, HiFonics etc... Best I remember, the only DSP that existed in our (shops) world back then was from Eclipse and even then it was out of reach for most people financially. I remember their slick on the thing though (which was a close as we ever got to one), Eclipse sure could produce a nice slick, it had Time Alignment and Center Channel processing... I would have killed to have had that thing in my car.

Flash forward 20 years... I just bought a 2016 Ford Explorer and am now revisiting the now, quite complex (comparatively), world of car audio. Factory systems are nearly impossible to fully replace and are amplified, processed and time aligned. I kind of feel like that moment when Marty Mcfly sees the future with the hoverboards and flying cars. Everyone and their brother has a DSP and is doing summing with 31 bands of EQ on each output. Some DSP's have center channels while others have virtual center channels while other DSP's lack a center completely.

In the home audio world the need for the center channel is obvious to me. We have a 5.1 signal with each channels audio tailored specific to the speaker setup. We're, ideally sitting in direct line of the center channel as it is placed in front and center of the stage (the TV/Projector). The satellite speakers enhance the stage center and provide depth and dynamic range The center channel is primarily voice in a 5.1 system with some effects audio. Makes perfect sense.. 

In a car, as a great many people have written, it isn't so simple. We're feeding our systems primarily a simple L/R stereo signal, not 5.1. Then we're taking that stereo signal and processing it into whatever configuration we think is best. A center channel (if any) is faked by the dsp (virtual or not). The sound stage (with center channel) is then in the middle of the dash (if all goes well) not right in front of the primary listener. Stage is to the right of the driver and to the left of the passenger. In the home audio world a center channel really should be one of the best speakers in your system (mine has 2 6.5" drivers with soft dome tweet and sounds incredible) While conversely in the car audio world the center is rarely something larger than a 4" coax driver hitting free-air in a non-sealed dash.

...here's where I get a little murky and and looking to the pro's to help me understand the common wisdom of todays systems on staging. Is the desired stage of today still the center of the dash?...or is it in front of the primary listener? Are center channels even relevant? I remember from my installer days that some audio experts would say a center was a band-aid for poor staging. Is that less true or more true today?

I've done a little searching and didn't find this particular thread so, here it is. If you're designing an SQ system, where does the stage end up? Center to the listener or center of the dash? I get it, if the stage is centered on the driver then the passenger will have a completely different experience. Its for this reason I see that DSP's are making programmable slots for their DSP's so, I'm assuming, guys can change based on the company they keep and the type of music they like.

So it appears I'm asking two questions. 
1. Is the center channel even relevant these days?
2. Whats the conventional wisdom on staging here, in the future.. ;-)

Thanks in advance for your time..

Lexingtonian


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

can of worms.

but hey, you're close enough - we have an event in clarksville, tn, this sunday...come, talk to a bunch of like-minded ppl about audio, demo some cars, hang out for the big game, etc...


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Center is Center. there is ZERO actual debate as to the location of where center should be located. Center is equidistant between 2 points. 
There are no alternative facts to support center being located anywhere else but equal distant between 2 points. 

As far as Center Channel relevance, they are making a come back bc of improvements in processing and the ability to upmix 2ch audio into 5.1.

But still, the majority of people still use 2ch audio and through speaker placement, heavy DSP use or combination of both--move center image so its located equidistant from the left and right acoustic boundaries.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> Center is Center. there is ZERO actual debate as to the location of where center should be located. Center is equidistant between 2 points.
> There are no alternative facts to support center being located anywhere else but equal distant between 2 points.
> 
> As far as Center Channel relevance, they are making a come back bc of improvements in processing and the ability to upmix 2ch audio into 5.1.
> ...


Just to support your point a bit more, those 2 points are the physical locations of the speakers. TA is still used to balance the stage, and to put the center between those points. Some people center the stage in front of the driver, and it sounds terrible. Physical boundaries determine how far the illusion of the stage can stretch, putting the center in front of the driver will create a stretched right stage, and compressed left stage (in a left hand drive car).


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## Lexingtonian (Jan 15, 2017)

benny z said:


> can of worms.
> 
> but hey, you're close enough - we have an event in clarksville, tn, this sunday...come, talk to a bunch of like-minded ppl about audio, demo some cars, hang out for the big game, etc...


Certainly didn't mean to open a can of worms.. (sorry 'bout that)

Deeply appreciate the invite. Weekend is full already. It would be interesting as I haven't heard an SQ car in 20 years. The last one I sat in that did well on the circuit was Jerry Zeiglers Civic out of Lexington Kentucky.


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## Lexingtonian (Jan 15, 2017)

Thanks @gijoe and @Mic10is. Appreciate the insights. That pretty much answers my questions.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

gijoe said:


> Just to support your point a bit more, those 2 points are the physical locations of the speakers. TA is still used to balance the stage, and to put the center between those points. Some people center the stage in front of the driver, and it sounds terrible. Physical boundaries determine how far the illusion of the stage can stretch, putting the center in front of the driver will create a stretched right stage, and compressed left stage (in a left hand drive car).


thanks, but it should be acoustical boundaries, not physical. physical boundaries would be Apillars which is how MECA judges. center should be located between the physical boundaries.
Then there is acoustical boundaries which can be slightly harder to determine. 

in many cars the left and right boundaries are not equal. From the driver side the left boundary may be AT or inside the apillar, but the right boundary may extend past the right apillar to the outside of the vehicle. 
In this scenario, the acoustical center is now right of center of the physical center.

This is how IASCA and other Orgs judge imaging and staging and is an important distinction.

In an ideal world, the stage extends beyond the physical boundaries of the vehicle and is equal on both sides and not skewed.
realistically , the majority of stages have some skewing on one side or another.


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

Lexingtonian said:


> Certainly didn't mean to open a can of worms.. (sorry 'bout that)
> 
> Deeply appreciate the invite. Weekend is full already. It would be interesting as I haven't heard an SQ car in 20 years. The last one I sat in that did well on the circuit was Jerry Zeiglers Civic out of Lexington Kentucky.


Which shop did you work at in Lexington? I knew the guys at Ovations pretty good, specifically manager Shane Ware and Jerry back in the install bay. I also spent a small fortune at Autosound. Does Harvey Wright still own Autosound? 

I live outside of Paintsville (about 2 hours east) but I have a good friend that lives a little bit south of Man-O-War that still has a pretty nice competition system.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> thanks, but it should be acoustical boundaries, not physical. physical boundaries would be Apillars which is how MECA judges. center should be located between the physical boundaries.
> Then there is acoustical boundaries which can be slightly harder to determine.
> 
> in many cars the left and right boundaries are not equal. From the driver side the left boundary may be AT or inside the apillar, but the right boundary may extend past the right apillar to the outside of the vehicle.
> ...


Ideally, sure, but realistically the physical boundaries of the car will limit the acoustic width/depth/etc. I think we are saying the same thing, maybe my post wasn't written well. Yes, you can stretch the illusion past boundaries of the car, but not infinitely, the boundaries of a car do play a role in how wide of a stage can be had (especially without proper rear "fill"). 

My point was merely that the center will almost absolutely not be directly in front of the driver.


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Andy W. offered an extensive Tech Tip on Center Channel relevance on FB. Pretty interesting!

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1344082325623102&id=100000640424726


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

When they place the center on the driver it sounds bad but sounds really bad when the song has the lead on the left.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Bluenote said:


> Andy W. offered an extensive Tech Tip on Center Channel relevance on FB. Pretty interesting!
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1344082325623102&id=100000640424726


You're welcome for that. 

I was going to point the OP to do a search for Andy's posts as well. Both in here and on FB. Right now, he is probably the person in the industry pressing hardest for 2 channel upmixing and the use of center channels. (He currently has an upmixing processor in the beta phase of development.)

Also to Lexintonian, I agree with your assessment of use of anemic center speakers. When upmixing and using a center, you are asking that center channel to do some pretty heavy lifting if done properly. Andy's own car for instance uses a pair of 4" midranges + a 1" tweeter, whereas the left and right front components utilize only a single 2.5" midrange respecitively. If I were to implement a center channel into a build, I would want it to be as large/capable as reasonable within the constraints of my build.


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## josby (May 8, 2011)

Bluenote said:


> Andy W. offered an extensive Tech Tip on Center Channel relevance on FB. Pretty interesting!
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1344082325623102&id=100000640424726


Definitely a great bit of info he published there. His thoughts on center channels in this video are illuminating as well, IMO (jump to 50s mark):


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Yes RT, Andy has my full attention on those Tech Tips!


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

Lexingtonian said:


> ...here's where I get a little murky and and looking to the pro's to help me understand the common wisdom of todays systems on staging. Is the desired stage of today still the center of the dash?...or is it in front of the primary listener? Are center channels even relevant? I remember from my installer days that some audio experts would say a center was a band-aid for poor staging. Is that less true or more true today?''
> ..........
> So it appears I'm asking two questions.
> 1. Is the center channel even relevant these days?
> 2. Whats the conventional wisdom on staging here, in the future.. ;-)


The other folks here have answered your questions well but I wanted to add something too.

A center channel is mostly used these days so that everyone in every seat in the car can enjoy a stereo presentation with a left, right, and center stage that matches the dashboard (more or less). So if you want to build a system that images well for your passengers too, a center channel is the way to go.

If you're only concerned with making a great stereo image for the driver's seat, then no center channel is needed (and often preferred due to being less complicated and sometimes less expensive). The other seats in the car will still sound great in terms of tonality, they just might be lopsided in terms of left/right/center cues.


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## Lexingtonian (Jan 15, 2017)

cmusic said:


> Which shop did you work at in Lexington? I knew the guys at Ovations pretty good, specifically manager Shane Ware and Jerry back in the install bay. I also spent a small fortune at Autosound. Does Harvey Wright still own Autosound?
> 
> I live outside of Paintsville (about 2 hours east) but I have a good friend that lives a little bit south of Man-O-War that still has a pretty nice competition system.


It wasn't in Lexington it was in Richmond. I didn't know Jerry personally, but had the opportunity to check out his car via a coworker of his at Ovation. Don't know anything about Autosound these days...


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## Lexingtonian (Jan 15, 2017)

Jazzi said:


> The other folks here have answered your questions well but I wanted to add something too.
> 
> A center channel is mostly used these days so that everyone in every seat in the car can enjoy a stereo presentation with a left, right, and center stage that matches the dashboard (more or less). So if you want to build a system that images well for your passengers too, a center channel is the way to go.
> 
> If you're only concerned with making a great stereo image for the driver's seat, then no center channel is needed (and often preferred due to being less complicated and sometimes less expensive). The other seats in the car will still sound great in terms of tonality, they just might be lopsided in terms of left/right/center cues.


So many great responses to this thread, I'd like to thank each of you. Andy's car looks phenomenal for sure. I find it a little funny that 20 years later, center channels aren't ubiquitous for the Car Audio scene. After seeing many of the responses, I went looking for DSP's that upmixed center channel and it appears there are only two (from my research). The Alpine and JBL (now discontinued) Units. What am I missing?

...also on the subject (sort of). I find it interesting that many of the DSP's are simply only doing TA, Xover and EQ today. I'd think that many of them would have added surround sound capabilities much like the home market has had for decades. I'd assume that from a pure SQ perspective, surround sound would be adding something to the music that isn't there. I get where the natural resistance would be as a purist. But there are times where surround processing can simply sound more pleasing. ...and of course fun to play with... 

In my vehicle, certainly do want a strong center channel/staging. I was looking at the Helix V EIGHT DSP (which would be perfect for what I want to do from a simplicity standpoint) but it doesn't upmix center. Another frustration.. having trouble finding that product that's right for what you want to do (but that's a WHOLE other thread in the Help me find my gear forum).


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

I think it boils down to licensing. They would have to pay Dolby, etc.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Lexingtonian said:


> So many great responses to this thread, I'd like to thank each of you. Andy's car looks phenomenal for sure. I find it a little funny that 20 years later, center channels aren't ubiquitous for the Car Audio scene. After seeing many of the responses, I went looking for DSP's that upmixed center channel and it appears there are only two (from my research). The Alpine and JBL (now discontinued) Units. What am I missing?
> 
> ...also on the subject (sort of). I find it interesting that many of the DSP's are simply only doing TA, Xover and EQ today. I'd think that many of them would have added surround sound capabilities much like the home market has had for decades. I'd assume that from a pure SQ perspective, surround sound would be adding something to the music that isn't there. I get where the natural resistance would be as a purist. But there are times where surround processing can simply sound more pleasing. ...and of course fun to play with...
> 
> In my vehicle, certainly do want a strong center channel/staging. I was looking at the Helix V EIGHT DSP (which would be perfect for what I want to do from a simplicity standpoint) but it doesn't upmix center. Another frustration.. having trouble finding that product that's right for what you want to do (but that's a WHOLE other thread in the Help me find my gear forum).


With time alignment, and independent left and right EQ, you can get a brilliant center image without a simulated center channel. The Alpine and JBL add proper rear fill to the mix. Instead of sending a stereo signal to the rears you can have the rears compliment the stage and add a sense of space.


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

Lexingtonian said:


> ...also on the subject (sort of). I find it interesting that many of the DSP's are simply only doing TA, Xover and EQ today. I'd think that many of them would have added surround sound capabilities much like the home market has had for decades. I'd assume that from a pure SQ perspective, surround sound would be adding something to the music that isn't there. I get where the natural resistance would be as a purist. But there are times where surround processing can simply sound more pleasing. ...and of course fun to play with...
> .....


Alpine does Dolby Pro Logic, Pro Logic II, and DTS but they can afford to pay licensing fees and possible royalties to Dolby and DTS. Other manufactures either don't have the money to include surround sound processing like in home theaters, don't think they will sell enough to warrant the extra cost of the surround sound formats, or they don't see the need in including it. Truth be told, there are not many people that interested in a true 5.1 or 7.1 system in their car.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

As others have mentioned, it all comes down to paying for licensing. Many, if not most of the chips used in modern car audio DSPs have the surround/upmixing capabilities built in, but the manufacturer does not use the features because of the cost. 

On another note, there are manufacturers who have enough capability built into their processors (primarily the mixing matrix) that you can do a decent job of creating a center channel and surround. The latest Mosconi and Helix processors come to mind here. Will it be as good as what you can get from Alpine, JBL (formerly) or Audiofrog (pending)? Probably not. Will it be "good enough?" That would be entirely up to the end user.


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## josby (May 8, 2011)

Lexingtonian said:


> I went looking for DSP's that upmixed center channel and it appears there are only two (from my research). The Alpine and JBL (now discontinued) Units. What am I missing?


Audiofrog has one in the works that will too, but no ETA has been announced so you can't count on it. There was a recent video interview where Andy talked about it some more (mainly how it does its rear channels differently than the MS-8 did), but I looked for the link to post and it seems to be gone now.



Lexingtonian said:


> In my vehicle, certainly do want a strong center channel/staging. I was looking at the Helix V EIGHT DSP (which would be perfect for what I want to do from a simplicity standpoint) but it doesn't upmix center.


Use a DSP that creates an upmixed center and run its outputs to the V EIGHT's inputs.


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## josby (May 8, 2011)

One thing I've never been clear on with phantom center/center images being CENTERED is which of these is it supposed to sound like?

When I put my MS-8 on the "Driver" position setting, vocalists sound like the first scenario pictured above. That is, it sounds like they are to the right of me. And if I set it to "Passenger" and sit on the passenger side, it sounds like they are to the left of me. That doesn't seem correct. That would only happen if the singer was sitting directly in front of both occupants with their knees touching ours.

It seems like the third scenario would be more like any normal music venue, but in that case, isn't the center sound coming from almost directly in front of each occupant?


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

The middle one is most typical of a well scoring sq car in iasca.


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## mjfideler (Jun 21, 2020)

Reviving a super old thread here (I know, I am sorry), but now days a lot of cars come from the factory with a center channel so I thought it might be relevant.

I will start by saying I am a VW, Volvo, and Hyundai Salesman. And I currently own a 2015 VW Golf TDI with the Fender Audio System. Originally I thought it was great. But the more I listened to the other systems out there it just isn't enough for me anymore. Hyundai's Infinity system is serious garbage and I knew that from the start, Fender and Dynaudio in VW are decent, Harmon Kardon in Volvo is ok... barely better then the VW stuff. BUT Volvo has anther system that really got me interested in more serious audio again. If you haven't heard the Bowers and Wilkins system in the XC90, you need to!

So with the love I have for that system, I got to looking at B&W stuff. Of course they don't produce aftermarket stuff other than Home Audio. There home audio stuff is crazy expensive so I ended up going with a Klipsch Reference 5.2.2 system in my house and it sounds amazing (can give specs for reference if it helps find something I will like). Now after getting my home audio system, I get in my Golf and I am just not happy with it any longer. I have been looking into audio upgrades again for the first time in like 10 years and I would love to set up something with a center channel like the B&W system or my home audio system.

I currently have:
Alpine SWR-T10 subwoofer (Alpine SWR-T10 Type-R Thin 10" 4-ohm shallow-mount subwoofer at Crutchfield)
Eclipse XA1000 amp (Eclipse XA1000 Mono subwoofer amplifier 480 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms at Crutchfield)
MTX Re-Q5 bass restoration module (MTX re-Q5 5-channel bass restoration signal processor Get full bass response when adding amps to a factory system at Crutchfield)

I have been doing a lot of looking around but am kind of confused by all of the processors and stuff out there now days, so I am looking for some advice. What I would love to do is replace the speakers (if necessary) and the 4 channel amp with something much better, while possibly adding a center channel.

Some stuff I have found and am looking for options on is CDT Audio's Component Speakers and the center pod. But are they any good? Let me know what you guys think and what advise you can give me moving forward.

PS: I should also mention that I am a bit of a bass heavy listener (mostly hip hop and rap, but even when I listen to Country I like more bass).


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## jdurango (Dec 28, 2020)

I'm an audio engineer by trade. I mostly do studio engineering and production, live FOH, PA installs, studio design, along with some basic acoustic design for control rooms and tracking rooms. That said, I'm a relative novice when it comes to car audio, so big grain of salt.

I feel like this thread went a bit off-track from what the OP was originally asking.

First off, yes, center channel speakers in home audio (5.1, 7.1, etc.) are a whole different animal and should not be related interchangeably to their function in car audio where just about everything (save perhaps some DVD players?) will be 2 channel L/R stereo and the center channel will not have it's own dedicated mix.

Also, OP is absolutely correct that seating position in a vehicle makes for a less than ideal TA proposition, because in order the create the best TA'ed/EQ'ed sound for the driver, one will inherently compromise the sound for passenger(s) due to phase decoherence of the "improperly" tuned sound stage for anyone who isn't the driver.

So, hopefully I can cut through some of the less relevant stuff here in relation to what I believe the OP was getting at.

Here's the nitty gritty. While a center channel speaker could be used to mask/hide some of this phase/eq/tuning incoherence due to suboptimal tuning for either driver or passenger or whoever by effectively creating a "closer L" for the passenger and "closer R" for the driver, it will only be a crutch.

Leaving the center speaker out of the equation entirely or a second, the stereo L/R speakers will still need to be tuned for some specific listening position. Assuming they are tuned for the driver, they will sound suboptimal for the passenger no matter what trickery is employed anywhere else in the system, including adding a center speaker with all the fancy DSP in the world. So assuming we've tuned the L/R for the driver, now let's say we introduce a center channel, let's say it's even a very good, beautifully DSP'ed one, such as Helix's "RealCenter". This will not fix the fact that the main L/R speakers are suboptimal for the passenger, at best, it will only mask the TA/phase/EQ-tuning incoherence for the passenger by partially (not fully) offsetting the fact that the LEFT speaker is more delayed than the RIGHT speaker, when for the passenger, it would ideally be the other way around. But of course this now introduces a problem for the driver, as their previously perfectly TA'ed RIGHT speaker is now muddied up by a center speaker that is not TA'ed to match their perfect R. You could, of course, fix this by TA'ing the center to match the R speaker, but now you're right back where you started with the passenger receiving a suboptimal mix, defeating the proximate purpose of the C speaker to begin with.

Getting even more directly to the point, in a lopsided system, with one listener on the far left and one on the far right, there will never be a perfect sound stage for both at the same time. No amount of DSP or speakers of audio trickery will overcome the fact the the SPL traveling through the air will hit the two listeners ears at different times, meaning phase decoherence, and all the artifacting associated with it WILL occur, for at least one listener. That's basic physics and Acoustics 101.

So again, the best a center channel will do is create a compromise. So whether or not to employ a center channel is completely up to you. Personally, I'd say, if you are mostly the sole occupant of the vehicle, or the sole occupant who really gives a damn about sound quality, I'd leave out the center and tune the system specifically for you. If you have a DSP that can switch presets, you could have multiple options.

Personally, I've never seen a home hifi or professional studio system employ a center channel speaker for stereo monitoring/listening for anything other than checking mono compatibility when mixing or mastering....or in home hifi for use in surround sound (which again, is an entirely different beast and not at all relevant to STEREO audio). As such, I don't see much logic behind employing such a system with a C speaker in my vehicle, regardless of listening position. Therefor, this will be my setup personally:

200 Series Toyota Land Cruiser w/ mix of Morel, Focal, Mosconi amps, Helix DSP, Image Dynamic sub and some custom junk. 2-way Morel speakers up front will be STEREO L/R only with the factory C speaker left in place, but disconnected at the amp. I'll have a remote for my DSP with several presets, and will probably include a couple that are compromises for everyone. Although a center channel speaker in the dash could be helpful to accomplish these compromised presets, it's far from necessary, and arguably just causes more issues and complexity. I can make perfectly good "compromise" presets with only L/R speakers. I'll have a "center image" where there is no relative TA between L/R speakers, and ideal listening position will be focused somewhere around the center of the vehicle. In this scenario, why would I need a center speaker? The stereo image is already focused in the center. I'll have other presets TA'ed/EQ'ed specifically for passenger. Again, in this scenario, why would I want a center speaker? All it's likely to do it muck up my stereo image. And of course I'll have a few presets specifically for the driver, for which again, why would I want a C speaker mucking up my stereo image?

To date, I've heard nobody make a coherent case from a technical acoustic science or physics standpoint of how a center channel speaker might do more harm than good from the standpoint of *creating an ideal listening environment for any single occupant*. Yes, I can see reasons why in a static system, with no option for DSP presets, it could serve as a helpful tool in *creating a LESS imperfect sound stage for more than one occupant*, if that is what's desired, but it's still a compromise for any single listener. If you have the option of DSP presets, I'd use them. If you don't, you need to decide whether you want your static system tuned for one listening position or a compromise. If you choose compromise, a center channel can be helpful, but still isn't necessary.

</end novel>


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