# 2014 Ford F-150 w/ Sony - OEM integration



## valow

Hi all - 

I greatly appreciate your help in advance. Let me give you the run down. Factory head unit. Polk Audio in all doors, including tweeters. Running active in the front to a Rockford 4x400. Back doors are running to a Rockford 2x300. Kenwood Excelon 10s (2) under the rear seat driven by a Kenwood amp. I recently had a RF 3sixty.3 installed. The 3sixty started to fail (Hz settings on certain bands were randomly set, to say 10476, 12874, etc.). So I contacted the dealer and shipped it back. This was the second unit. So, before I replace parts (I'm waiting on a store credit, so I have time to solve this), I want to ensure I have the right pieces in place.

I utilized the high level speaker inputs on the 3sixty. These were OUT of the Sony amp. Now, I need to make sure I spec this correctly because I'm unsure what signals are being sent out of that sony amp...Here are my thoughts...your experience will help me decide.

JL FiX 82 prior to the input on the amp to flatten the signal - then out to a DSP. Or, LC7i handles the high level speaker inputs, then runs RCA out to the DSP? Or, just run straight to a DSP?

One other consideration, I'm ok with any type of DSP that will work correctly, and have been looking at the Helix, but after reading many threads here, I'm curious if the MS-8 is a better option?

At any rate, please let me know your thoughts - I greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!

Edit: I'd like to keep the OEM sound pieces, if possible - but if I have to sacrifice those to ensure I get the sound I'm paying for, so be it.

Edit 2: If the LC7i ONLY is also the best option, I'm ok with that too - like I said, I just want the best option and the best sound for what I have from a component perspective.


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## Locomotive Tech

So the Sony amp is the factory? If so, I would not use the outputs from the amp. I would use the outputs from the factory H/U. That could be the reason the 3sixty3 has had some failures. If you can verify the output power of the Sony amp then you could be sure if the output from that amp is too much for the 3sixty3 high level inputs.

IMO, you may be seeing some factory EQuing from the H/U and amp. If you can research on a Ford forum to see where any factory EQ is made, either in the factory amp or H/U. 

In my case I used the FiX to integrate with the factory H/U and bypassed the factory amp. It was a little tricky to locate the output signals from the H/U but worth the labor. 

Does the 3sixty3 do signal summing and de-EQuing? That could be important once you find out if the factory Ford system has built in EQ and such. If it doesn't then you should be fine with the 3sixty3.

If your factory system has these features then you should choose a DSP that deals with these conditions. The RF website doesn't seem to do that, but since you already have it, or will get it back from repair, then maybe the FiX is a good fit. The 3sixty3 looks like a decent unit, although I have no experience with any but the FiX and TwK.


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## Locomotive Tech

P.S. I would think that any DSP would experience failures if connected to the outputs of almost any amp. I know the factories are small but even a 30 watt output signal maybe too much for any DSP. I would suspect that any DSP would work for a while but taxing the internals of a DSP with long periods of high wattage would cause a slow death to even the best DSP.

I did look at the RF and Helix DSP's and did see they can handle 28v and 20v inputs respectively so you should check what the output is at your maximum listening level.


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## valow

Locomotive Tech said:


> P.S. I would think that any DSP would experience failures if connected to the outputs of almost any amp. I know the factories are small but even a 30 watt output signal maybe too much for any DSP. I would suspect that any DSP would work for a while but taxing the internals of a DSP with long periods of high wattage would cause a slow death to even the best DSP.
> 
> I did look at the RF and Helix DSP's and did see they can handle 28v and 20v inputs respectively so you should check what the output is at your maximum listening level.


Hey man, thanks for the response. I'm done with the 3sixty - other than the issues I'm laying out, it has it's other limitations too. That said, I think what you're telling me is that the amp is going in to the processor (3sixty) way too hot. Which, in effect, would be the case with any DSP - not many are rated above 28v input...

Rockford has assured me that it can beyond handle what the factory amp is sending it...which I now tend to disagree with. Either way, from what you're saying I think I can gather that I'm best off with a device like the FiX from the head unit, out to a DSP of choice? So if I do that, it would eliminate any type of sound processing from the Sony amp or head unit, or at least flatten or level out what I'm getting from the head unit and completely ignore the sony amp. However will I lose basic functionality of the OEM system, such as Sirius? The volume aspects I can work around and hardly use. Other than the reverse sensor alarm.

Again, thanks - this is invaluable.


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## valow

Locomotive Tech said:


> So the Sony amp is the factory? If so, I would not use the outputs from the amp. I would use the outputs from the factory H/U. That could be the reason the 3sixty3 has had some failures. If you can verify the output power of the Sony amp then you could be sure if the output from that amp is too much for the 3sixty3 high level inputs.
> 
> IMO, you may be seeing some factory EQuing from the H/U and amp. If you can research on a Ford forum to see where any factory EQ is made, either in the factory amp or H/U.
> 
> In my case I used the FiX to integrate with the factory H/U and bypassed the factory amp. It was a little tricky to locate the output signals from the H/U but worth the labor.
> 
> Does the 3sixty3 do signal summing and de-EQuing? That could be important once you find out if the factory Ford system has built in EQ and such. If it doesn't then you should be fine with the 3sixty3.
> 
> If your factory system has these features then you should choose a DSP that deals with these conditions. The RF website doesn't seem to do that, but since you already have it, or will get it back from repair, then maybe the FiX is a good fit. The 3sixty3 looks like a decent unit, although I have no experience with any but the FiX and TwK.


I should also comment on this. Vendors that sell the 3sixty, including Rockford advise against using the outputs from the H/U. The reason being, the signal is generally very weak.

I did verify the voltage on each high level, and the total output wasnt' beyond the 28v, FYI. I also know the Sony amp itself does some level of DSP work, but what is unknown. (unless I can find and pin down a Ford engineer, and I don't have any trips to Detroit planned I know of). 

That said, the 3sixty will sum, but no de-EQ function I'm aware of (at least in software, hardware is unknown as well, and not documented). The only solid evidence of "best practice" I've received from RF is use as few high levels as possible, like 2 total. Which probably helps your point hold water.

I'm looking at either the Helix, or the JBL MS product at this point, which I've seen both specifically called out on this forum. However, I just want to make sure that I should or shouldn't bypass the factory amp. At this point, I'm ready to buy the JL FiX 82 and the Helix and make sure it's not even in the equation. At least I know what signal I'm getting, and I won't have to use a high level converter.

Edit: and having someone chime in with practical experience and application would also make me more comfortable before I spend that in store credit.


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## Locomotive Tech

Well I can tell you what my experience is so far. I could not get a definitive answer on where the factory EQ came from, H/U or factory amp. So the FiX was a good fit for my Civic. So to be clear, I connected only the H/U outputs and left all other connections as they were. This had no affect on any other function of the vehicle systems, everything still functioned properly. 

I noticed that the Tweeter output was a function of the amp only and probably just a crossed full range. I connected all five outputs, 4 full range and one sub output to the FiX. I ran the calibration process as described and was thouroghly impressed. Even with a very weak output signal the FiX does an incredible job. 

I do hear some changes in the EQ as I turn up the volume on the H/U. So for me this won't be an issue as the TwKD8 comes with remote control with volume control. I was able to overcome this before the TwK by lowering the H/U volume and then re-calibrating the FiX. This also caused me to re-do my gain structure a bit but worth it for now, until I can get a better tune from the TwK.

FWIW, after setting T/A, crossovers and a few tweaks on the PEQ.......I am totally Jazzed up now. I need to work on speaker placement for the two widebanders and will change the titanium dome twts for silks. But I am really enjoying this.

Oh, one more thing, when I connected the FiX to the factory H/U, I got a little noise and had to do some shielding and grounded the shielded wires I used to connect the two, to the other end. The factory wires were grounded at the connector on the H/U.

Hope this helps and keep us posted on your progress.


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## Locomotive Tech

Strange that Rockford recommends only two inputs???

What if you have a sub? separate signals for tweets, etc.? That leads me to believe that there zero to very little summing capabilities.


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## valow

Locomotive Tech said:


> Well I can tell you what my experience is so far. I could not get a definitive answer on where the factory EQ came from, H/U or factory amp. So the FiX was a good fit for my Civic. So to be clear, I connected only the H/U outputs and left all other connections as they were. This had no affect on any other function of the vehicle systems, everything still functioned properly.
> 
> I noticed that the Tweeter output was a function of the amp only and probably just a crossed full range. I connected all five outputs, 4 full range and one sub output to the FiX. I ran the calibration process as described and was thouroghly impressed. Even with a very weak output signal the FiX does an incredible job.
> 
> I do hear some changes in the EQ as I turn up the volume on the H/U. So for me this won't be an issue as the TwKD8 comes with remote control with volume control. I was able to overcome this before the TwK by lowering the H/U volume and then re-calibrating the FiX. This also caused me to re-do my gain structure a bit but worth it for now, until I can get a better tune from the TwK.
> 
> FWIW, after setting T/A, crossovers and a few tweaks on the PEQ.......I am totally Jazzed up now. I need to work on speaker placement for the two widebanders and will change the titanium dome twts for silks. But I am really enjoying this.
> 
> Oh, one more thing, when I connected the FiX to the factory H/U, I got a little noise and had to do some shielding and grounded the shielded wires I used to connect the two, to the other end. The factory wires were grounded at the connector on the H/U.
> 
> Hope this helps and keep us posted on your progress.


Fair enough - one thing I do like the aspect of, is having the ability to use the built in RTA with the Helix, or even REW and my miniDSP RTA mic to calibrate this thing full on. Since I've already rand the high levels out to a DSP, I'm thinking I'll wait to see what audiotec-fischer comes back with - I just emailed them. I'm hoping I can get some kind of definitive answer on how to actually run this thing, since there more options than solid "working" answers. I've even PMd folks on this forum that have the same year/model...so let's see what happens. Like I said, I have about a week to wait for the store credit...


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## valow

Locomotive Tech said:


> Strange that Rockford recommends only two inputs???
> 
> What if you have a sub? separate signals for tweets, etc.? That leads me to believe that there zero to very little summing capabilities.


Well exactly - they basically recommend using the least amount of high level inputs to the 3sixty, then summing your channels out to your amps. Supposedly that works, but I didn't try that before I returned it. I found that on a board or got that from Forrest with their support, who is a rock star honestly. Given the wide array of vehicles and issues he could get hit with, his knowledge and patience is unparamount. If you need to call Rockford support, do it. He's great to work with. That said, the limitations and bugs with the 3sixty (sorry Steve Meade), i just can't deal with it anymore. Plus the Helix is about 3 times the DSP the 3sixty is. I still have RF amps, and will keep them.


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## valow

Locomotive Tech said:


> Strange that Rockford recommends only two inputs???
> 
> What if you have a sub? separate signals for tweets, etc.? That leads me to believe that there zero to very little summing capabilities.


OVerview vid of the processor - give you an idea of what you have to work with. Great concept, and I have no doubt the 3sixty.4 or .5 will be there. I'm not a RF fan boy by any means - but I have to call it how it is with their DSP. Google it - issues galore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9NE0GpFDRA


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## Locomotive Tech

I just looked up the schematics for your truck, I think that your integration will be quite similar to mine. The sub output is from the H/U and looks like you also have 4 full range outputs. So eliminate the factory amp from the equation, it is now superfolus. 

Didn't dig too deep into the schematics but you should verify that the amp does not provide any other interconnects or functions for other systems. or you could do what I did, only disconnect the outputs from the H/U and just leave the amp. I found after disconnecting the factory amp connectors had no ill affects to other vehicle functions.


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## valow

Locomotive Tech said:


> I just looked up the schematics for your truck, I think that your integration will be quite similar to mine. The sub output is from the H/U and looks like you also have 4 full range outputs. So eliminate the factory amp from the equation, it is now superfolus.
> 
> Didn't dig too deep into the schematics but you should verify that the amp does not provide any other interconnects or functions for other systems. or you could do what I did, only disconnect the outputs from the H/U and just leave the amp. I found after disconnecting the factory amp connectors had no ill affects to other vehicle functions.


Awesome, thanks!


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## valow

Locomotive Tech said:


> I just looked up the schematics for your truck, I think that your integration will be quite similar to mine. The sub output is from the H/U and looks like you also have 4 full range outputs. So eliminate the factory amp from the equation, it is now superfolus.
> 
> Didn't dig too deep into the schematics but you should verify that the amp does not provide any other interconnects or functions for other systems. or you could do what I did, only disconnect the outputs from the H/U and just leave the amp. I found after disconnecting the factory amp connectors had no ill affects to other vehicle functions.


So I think I'm going JL FiX 82 from the H/U, then to a Helix. I like the EQ and tunability of it. Thoughts?

Thanks again!


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## Locomotive Tech

I think that will work just fine. The only thing I am curious about is the volume control. What I mean is that if you wish to use the factory volume controls, steering wheel, etc. and there is EQing coming from the H/U then you could have an issue there.

I did but after turning down the factory volume and re-calibrating the FiX the EQing seemed to go away. I would feel pretty bad if my suggestions got you into any traouble here. I can't say for sure that "it went away", it may have been minimized to a point where I can't hear it, but it could still be there. I am waiting on a mic so I can measure with REW. That would be a good questionf for JL and Audiotec.


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## j4gates

Not to send you too far down the rabbit hole, but this is the first thread I read on Ford integration when I started my research...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...8034-measuring-oem-hu-frequency-response.html

There are others like it if you search "Ford Sync" or some similar pairings on the forum. Very interesting reading from some of the contributors.


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## valow

j4gates said:


> Not to send you too far down the rabbit hole, but this is the first thread I read on Ford integration when I started my research...
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...8034-measuring-oem-hu-frequency-response.html
> 
> There are others like it if you search "Ford Sync" or some similar pairings on the forum. Very interesting reading from some of the contributors.


That rabbit hole is most welcome! So, what I've learned is that the H/U is EQ'ing the signal. Now I'm curious to see what/if Helix says in response to my email last night. MS-8 recommends Front L/R and Sub connections only - not sure if Helix is going to say the same thing.

I need to search for the "flashing your OEM head unit thread". I understand this can be done, so now I just need to figure out exactly what components to get, or if I should try to flash the h/u. Still leaning towards the FiX 82, then going TOSlink to the Helix. The FiX should at the very least flatten the signal that's coming from the H/U. I tried to call JL this morning, but they are closed for Christmas...not a bad thing. 

Thanks again for all the insight - this entire project is a rabbit hole at this point, so any type of forum post that helps educate me on what this thing is actually doing, I'm all for!


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## dawaro

I have the exact same truck and factory system as yours. I even use the 3sixty with now issues.

You cannot that the HU outputs directly to any DSP because they are on a can-bus between the HU and Sony amp.

Regardless of what DSP you choose you will want to take the front woofer and tweeter signals and sum those to get a full range signal.

Do Not use the sub channel out of the Sony DSP as an input to the new DSP. The Sony sub channel is actually a low-level signal. The sub amplifier is integrated into the factory sub enclosure.

Here is a thread where they actually measured the response and distortion levels of the factory DSP. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/135919-2012-ford-f150-raptor.html 

This also has peaked my interest because it is specifically designed for the Ford Sony systems. DSR1 - 8-Channel Interactive Signal Processor w/ Integrated iDatalink Maestro Module | Rockford Fosgate®


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## dawaro

valow said:


> That said, the 3sixty will sum, but no de-EQ function I'm aware of (at least in software, hardware is unknown as well, and not documented).


From page 11 of the 3Sixty user manual:
_"Input Denormalization
The 3Sixty.3’s input denormalization function is designed to measure the electrical frequency response of each channel from your source unit and calculate
the correction curve needed to flatten the output of each channel. It then combines the correction curve with the source units output, giving you a flat
frequency response on the output channels. Select track #2 (Correlated Pink noise) on the 3Sixty.3 setup disk. The volume of the source unit can be left at
its maximum level unless the source unit has a volume dependant equalization circuit such as most BOSE systems, in which case the source unit should be
set to half of the maximum level calculated when level setting the input. Select the “Auto Normalize” button, this can take aprox 1-5 minutes to calculated
the correction curve needed to normalize the output. You can now use the drop down menu to switch between the measured input frequency response
and the corrected output frequency response displayed on the graph. The color correlating to each channel on the graph will be displayed on the right
hand side. The “Read Results” button on the left hand side is only used when a 3Sixty.3 processor unit has been previously configured and the user wants
to view the input or output curves previously calculated without rerunning the “Auto Normalize” .

_


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## valow

dawaro said:


> I have the exact same truck and factory system as yours. I even use the 3sixty with now issues.
> 
> You cannot that the HU outputs directly to any DSP because they are on a can-bus between the HU and Sony amp.
> 
> Regardless of what DSP you choose you will want to take the front woofer and tweeter signals and sum those to get a full range signal.
> 
> Do Not use the sub channel out of the Sony DSP as an input to the new DSP. The Sony sub channel is actually a low-level signal. The sub amplifier is integrated into the factory sub enclosure.
> 
> Here is a thread where they actually measured the response and distortion levels of the factory DSP. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/135919-2012-ford-f150-raptor.html
> 
> This also has peaked my interest because it is specifically designed for the Ford Sony systems. DSR1 - 8-Channel Interactive Signal Processor w/ Integrated iDatalink Maestro Module | Rockford Fosgate®


I was hoping someone with the same vehicle would chime in! Thanks. So that said, how do you run your subs? I'm going to take the front L/R high levels for the mid and tweet, and will run those to the DSP ONLY. I'll probably go Helix, because I like that product a lot and should be able to "de-EQ" and normalize everything via REW, the DSP RTA and my RTA mic. My only question is how your sub amp is ran - did you just use the factory low level signal directly to your sub and left it off the DSP, or did you sum that with a high level from the fronts and then ran your channels accordingly in the DSP?

Thanks again - this is helpful


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## valow

dawaro said:


> From page 11 of the 3Sixty user manual:
> _"Input Denormalization
> The 3Sixty.3’s input denormalization function is designed to measure the electrical frequency response of each channel from your source unit and calculate
> the correction curve needed to flatten the output of each channel. It then combines the correction curve with the source units output, giving you a flat
> frequency response on the output channels. Select track #2 (Correlated Pink noise) on the 3Sixty.3 setup disk. The volume of the source unit can be left at
> its maximum level unless the source unit has a volume dependant equalization circuit such as most BOSE systems, in which case the source unit should be
> set to half of the maximum level calculated when level setting the input. Select the “Auto Normalize” button, this can take aprox 1-5 minutes to calculated
> the correction curve needed to normalize the output. You can now use the drop down menu to switch between the measured input frequency response
> and the corrected output frequency response displayed on the graph. The color correlating to each channel on the graph will be displayed on the right
> hand side. The “Read Results” button on the left hand side is only used when a 3Sixty.3 processor unit has been previously configured and the user wants
> to view the input or output curves previously calculated without rerunning the “Auto Normalize” .
> 
> _


Very valid point - I honestly think part of the problem is having too many high levels ran to the DSP. It only needs the front mids and highs to be able to normalize and sum the signal going out. Also that DSR1 looks snazzy - too bad it's not spring time already.


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## dawaro

valow said:


> I was hoping someone with the same vehicle would chime in! Thanks. So that said, how do you run your subs? I'm going to take the front L/R high levels for the mid and tweet, and will run those to the DSP ONLY. I'll probably go Helix, because I like that product a lot and should be able to "de-EQ" and normalize everything via REW, the DSP RTA and my RTA mic. My only question is how your sub amp is ran - did you just use the factory low level signal directly to your sub and left it off the DSP, or did you sum that with a high level from the fronts and then ran your channels accordingly in the DSP?
> 
> Thanks again - this is helpful


The front L/R woofer signal does not have a LP on it. Summing the L/R woofer and tweeter signals will get you a full range signal. Once the 3Sixty sums the signal then I use the output from the DSP to the sub amp. Level is controlled by the remote knob.


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## dawaro

valow said:


> Very valid point - I honestly think part of the problem is having too many high levels ran to the DSP. It only needs the front mids and highs to be able to normalize and sum the signal going out. Also that DSR1 looks snazzy - too bad it's not spring time already.


The fact that the DSR1 connects to the can-bus signal where the signal is flat probably makes it worth waiting for. Apparently it is a plug and play installation with adapters for the factory wire harness.

I plan to have one on order as soon as they start taking them.


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## valow

dawaro said:


> The front L/R woofer signal does not have a LP on it. Summing the L/R woofer and tweeter signals will get you a full range signal. Once the 3Sixty sums the signal then I use the output from the DSP to the sub amp. Level is controlled by the remote knob.


Awesome - so if I hook the Helix up the same way, I'll get the same result - they have a remote as well, so I'll grab that so I can at least control Sub volume.

Thanks, think I have my solution!


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## valow

dawaro said:


> The fact that the DSR1 connects to the can-bus signal where the signal is flat probably makes it worth waiting for. Apparently it is a plug and play installation with adapters for the factory wire harness.
> 
> I plan to have one on order as soon as they start taking them.


Are you adding that to your 3sixty?


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## dawaro

valow said:


> Are you adding that to your 3sixty?


No it will replace the 3sixty. Since it uses the can-bus signal prior to the Sony DSP there is no summing or normalizing of the signal required. My only concern is how it handles the NAV and phone signals. Currently those both come out of the Sony amp. Phone output goes to the front doors and NAV goes to the center. If there are provisions for that it may be possible to completely remove the Sony amp.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## robhaynes

valow said:


> So I think I'm going JL FiX 82 from the H/U, then to a Helix. I like the EQ and tunability of it. Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks again!


FiX works great with the Sony Systems. I recommend NOT using the factory subwoofer signal from the Sony amp. They tend to significantly clip at moderate volume and that gets summed into the system and can lead to poor sound quality and potential damaged tweeters. The front doors are full range, so you can get all you need there. 

Run the midrange into inputs 1/2, high frequency into 3/4 and call it a day. 

You will most likely need the FiX-LSA-4 load sensing adaptors. We have received word from many dealers that the amp displays high frequency noise or muting if it doesn't "detect a factory load". The FiX-LSA-4 tricks it into seeing a factory speaker. 

I don't think the output of the head unit is variable and I believe it's all CAN controlled, so you will need to grab your signals after the head unit. If using the OEM steering wheel controls you will be subjected to volume dependent equalization. If you don't want that simply use a DRC-100 to control the output from the FiX, or you can control the output from what ever DSP you are planning on using. A FiX 82 optically into a TwK D8 is a pretty powerful and cost effective integration and system tuning set up!

Let me know if you have any other questions!

Rob


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## valow

Wow Rob, thanks. It sounds like you have some pretty heavy experience with the Sony set ups. If you're seeing good results with the FiX and TwK combo I'm happy to go that route. One thing I wonder and will research is if the FiX uses a harness to tap in to the headunit or if I'm inserting between the headunit and amp manually?

Thanks again, great idea.


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## robhaynes

valow said:


> Wow Rob, thanks. It sounds like you have some pretty heavy experience with the Sony set ups. If you're seeing good results with the FiX and TwK combo I'm happy to go that route. One thing I wonder and will research is if the FiX uses a harness to tap in to the headunit or if I'm inserting between the headunit and amp manually?
> 
> Thanks again, great idea.


You would tap into the signal post-amplifier (amp outputs to the speakers). All you need to do is tap into the amplifiers midrange and tweeter outputs for the front stage. 

You can find more install info on FiX and TwK in our Help Center:
FiX & TwK Articles


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## valow

robhaynes said:


> You would tap into the signal post-amplifier (amp outputs to the speakers). All you need to do is tap into the amplifiers midrange and tweeter outputs for the front stage.
> 
> You can find more install info on FiX and TwK in our Help Center:
> FiX & TwK Articles


Rob - you just gained a customer. Once my store credit hits I'll purchase what's in the cart. FiX 82, LS4, and TwK D8. Can't wait to hear the difference and play with Tün!


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## j4gates

Please come back with your impressions after it's all installed and setup.


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## dawaro

Regardless of what product you use I would recommend taking advantage of the high level inputs. In your case place the Fix82 as close to the DSP as possible. This limits the length of RCA cables and the ability to pick up noise in the system.

Also if you plan to use the factory remote wire understand that it is a 5v remote. I had originally installed an Audio Control piece and it never worked well with the sensing circuit. I ended up installing a 5v relay that activated a 12v relay. Results were much better IMO. I cant speak for the JL sensing circuit but as far as the Rockford and Audio Control it worked much better.


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## robhaynes

dawaro said:


> Regardless of what product you use I would recommend taking advantage of the high level inputs. In your case place the Fix82 as close to the DSP as possible. This limits the length of RCA cables and the ability to pick up noise in the system.
> 
> Also if you plan to use the factory remote wire understand that it is a 5v remote. I had originally installed an Audio Control piece and it never worked well with the sensing circuit. I ended up installing a 5v relay that activated a 12v relay. Results were much better IMO. I cant speak for the JL sensing circuit but as far as the Rockford and Audio Control it worked much better.


With the FiX 82 and TwK D8 you can go optical using a TOSLINK cable and not even have to worry about unwanted noise entering the system between the two.


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## robhaynes

​


valow said:


> Rob - you just gained a customer. Once my store credit hits I'll purchase what's in the cart. FiX 82, LS4, and TwK D8. Can't wait to hear the difference and play with Tün!


Awesome! Glad I could help! 

Make sure to order a TOSLINK cable to connect the FiX 82 and TwK D8. The D8 doesn't have any analog inputs, it's a single Optical input.

I use an inexpensive cable I got off of Amazon in my car.


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## valow

robhaynes said:


> ​Awesome! Glad I could help!
> 
> Make sure to order a TOSLINK cable to connect the FiX 82 and TwK D8. The D8 doesn't have any analog inputs, it's a single Optical input.
> 
> I use an inexpensive cable I got off of Amazon in my car.


Order is going in on Monday, I just need to call Crutchfield. Any guidance on the remote turn on aspect? Switched or constant? I just got home from vacation and was trying to respond and check in as time permitted.

As I said, you gained a customer - I can't wait to get this rolling.

Thanks!

Edit: I just dug further on the docs you sent (zendesk link, great tool btw) - I'll dig there.

Thanks again


----------



## Locomotive Tech

I used the remote output from my head unit. The DC offset wasn't really reliable, I guess that the DC voltage doesn't change much in my Honda. I had issues with other components that would not turn on with the DC offset. 

The signal sensing also didn't work for me because the out put from the H/U is very low. When the GF would turn down the radio volume to talk on the phone, the system would shut down. But this may work for you because you're tapping into the amp out puts.


----------



## dawaro

The issue with the Ford Sony system is that the remote is a 5v output unless you have the Raptor model were you can tap into the. Uplifter switches.

All that is required is a 5v relay to signal a 12v relay. Not that big of an issue as long as you tap into the correct wire.

The Sony system and the Honda's are completely different animals.


----------



## Locomotive Tech

Ok I'm confused? The FiX remote in is not the power source for the unit, it's just the signal to "turn on". For me, I used the remote out for the disconnected factory amp and ran a fused constant 12v source right from the distribution block.

Now I need to know why a relay is needed? What did I do wrong?


----------



## dawaro

Locomotive Tech said:


> Ok I'm confused? The FiX remote in is not the power source for the unit, it's just the signal to "turn on". For me, I used the remote out for the disconnected factory amp and ran a fused constant 12v source right from the distribution block.
> 
> Now I need to know why a relay is needed? What did I do wrong?


Again, I am speaking to the original posters question about integrating with the Ford Sony system. Remote wires are typically 12v, the Ford Sony system uses a 5v. The Honda system may have a 12v remote. I dont have any experience with it so I cant say. To use the 5v remote supplied by the Ford Sony system you have to use it to trigger a separate remote with a 12v source.

If yours is working then I would say you did it right :laugh:


----------



## Locomotive Tech

Aha, I'm glad a Ford guy helped him. He would have been set back a few weeks listening to me!


----------



## valow

Locomotive Tech said:


> Aha, I'm glad a Ford guy helped him. He would have been set back a few weeks listening to me!


Ha! Well, I know my intention is to basically just use an add a circuit and run to the DC switched input on the FiX, then I can remote out to the TwK and be fine. 10A fuses should suffice and there are spares inside the passenger compartment fuse panel. The only confusion I have is the 12v Battery connection this thing also has - I'm not sure if I need both?


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> Again, I am speaking to the original posters question about integrating with the Ford Sony system. Remote wires are typically 12v, the Ford Sony system uses a 5v. The Honda system may have a 12v remote. I dont have any experience with it so I cant say. To use the 5v remote supplied by the Ford Sony system you have to use it to trigger a separate remote with a 12v source.
> 
> If yours is working then I would say you did it right :laugh:


To this point, I'll use remote turn on from the fuse box, like I said above. I'm not tapping in to the factory amp to do this. The LSA-4 that I also purchased will prevent anything from muting and make sure it has signal.


----------



## dawaro

valow said:


> To this point, I'll use remote turn on from the fuse box, like I said above. I'm not tapping in to the factory amp to do this. The LSA-4 that I also purchased will prevent anything from muting and make sure it has signal.


I am pretty sure the LSA-4 has to be attached to the factory amp outputs. I was just offering an option based on the experience that I have had with my Sony system


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> I am pretty sure the LSA-4 has to be attached to the factory amp outputs. I was just offering an option based on the experience that I have had with my Sony system


it does.


----------



## dawaro

valow said:


> Ha! Well, I know my intention is to basically just use an add a circuit and run to the DC switched input on the FiX, then I can remote out to the TwK and be fine. 10A fuses should suffice and there are spares inside the passenger compartment fuse panel. The only confusion I have is the 12v Battery connection this thing also has - I'm not sure if I need both?


You have to have the 12v constant to power the unit. There are three options to turn it on. Per the Owners manual "Preferred is a dedicated remote wire from the source". There is also a DC offset option that detects the small presence of DC signal in the OEM audio inputs. The final option is Signal Sensing which automatically turns on by detecting full-range OEM audio signals and turns off after signal is removed (varies, depending on input signal levels).

Just for what its worth, I have been messing with this factory system since I bought my truck in January of 2014. I have used several different summing devices and DSP's. Any advice I offer is from experience to help prevent you from going through the same frustration I went through.


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> You have to have the 12v constant to power the unit. There are three options to turn it on. Per the Owners manual "Preferred is a dedicated remote wire from the source". There is also a DC offset option that detects the small presence of DC signal in the OEM audio inputs. The final option is Signal Sensing which automatically turns on by detecting full-range OEM audio signals and turns off after signal is removed (varies, depending on input signal levels).
> 
> Just for what its worth, I have been messing with this factory system since I bought my truck in January of 2014. I have used several different summing devices and DSP's. Any advice I offer is from experience to help prevent you from going through the same frustration I went through.


And I appreciate it! That's the plan. I'll have to run a 12v constant and a 12v ACC to the unit, then I can remote out to the turn on for the TwK. That unit will need a 12v constant too. Using the signal sense should be fine - it will detect a full range signal from the OEM amp as I'll have the Front mids and highs connected. I have plenty of spare 10A fuse slots in my fuse box - just have to run more wire.


----------



## Dustin

I got your PM, I got busy with the holidays and forgot to reply. Sorry I didn't reply until you ordered everything.


----------



## valow

Dustin said:


> I got your PM, I got busy with the holidays and forgot to reply. Sorry I didn't reply until you ordered everything.


All good - install is being done tonight thanks to a garage heater! I'll post some pics after it's all done.


----------



## valow

robhaynes said:


> FiX works great with the Sony Systems. I recommend NOT using the factory subwoofer signal from the Sony amp. They tend to significantly clip at moderate volume and that gets summed into the system and can lead to poor sound quality and potential damaged tweeters. The front doors are full range, so you can get all you need there.
> 
> Run the midrange into inputs 1/2, high frequency into 3/4 and call it a day.
> 
> You will most likely need the FiX-LSA-4 load sensing adaptors. We have received word from many dealers that the amp displays high frequency noise or muting if it doesn't "detect a factory load". The FiX-LSA-4 tricks it into seeing a factory speaker.
> 
> I don't think the output of the head unit is variable and I believe it's all CAN controlled, so you will need to grab your signals after the head unit. If using the OEM steering wheel controls you will be subjected to volume dependent equalization. If you don't want that simply use a DRC-100 to control the output from the FiX, or you can control the output from what ever DSP you are planning on using. A FiX 82 optically into a TwK D8 is a pretty powerful and cost effective integration and system tuning set up!
> 
> Let me know if you have any other questions!
> 
> Rob


Everything is in and installed, it's super late so I'll have to fiddle more tomorrow. Ran the mids to 1/2, and the tweeters to 3/4, FiX-LSA-4 in the middle. Then TOSlink over to the TwK. Couple of things I noticed first off, the signal on the right side (both front and back doors) is pretty weak. Not sure why, I'll have to look at that tomorrow. Also the subs are pretty weak too, so more fiddling there as well.

I did notice that the FiX displayed amber lights on the left side (both top and bottom) - not sure if that's a FiX-LSA-4 issue or not, but we'll have to see. Also, the TwK JLid and DRC-200 LED are red. So it's clipping somewhere input, but I have no idea where...plenty to do tomorrow.

Once the bugs are worked out, I'll be sure to update you. Then I can start TwK'ing with REW.

Again thanks for your help, and let me know if you have any insight on the issues I'm seeing.

Thanks again!


----------



## PorkCereal

Interested to see how all this hooks up with the sony amp and such incase my ms8 ever leaves me. In for pics.


----------



## valow

PorkCereal said:


> Interested to see how all this hooks up with the sony amp and such incase my ms8 ever leaves me. In for pics.


I'll be sure to post some pics next weekend. I'm leaving tomorrow and it's below zero here - so that was an after thought. Also, this spring is the big 3 upgrade, plus I'm going 0 and 4 AWG back to a distribution block to clean things up a bit. My neighbor and I are talking about a 3 day venture where we gut it, re-mount and re-run all the cabling to help clean it up. It's been torn apart about 4 times now, so it's not the cleanest but not a disaster. 

It's in and working - I'm very happy with it, but also found some learnings that I wanted to share. First, the LSA-4 was NOT necessary. The system doesn't mute, and grabs signal just fine. I ran the mids to 1/2, highs to 3/4 and left the sub out, until...

Worked out the kinks this morning. Had a couple of silly calibration issues which I can only relate to a poorly crimped barrel connector. That resolved it, recalibrated fine. After all was said and done, the subs were WEAK. To the point all the volume or gain in the world wouldn't help them. There are two leads coming off the Sony amp to the factory sub. We pulled the factory sub enclosure apart and sure enough, no amp inside the factory box, just a dual voice coil 8". Hooked a 9v to the leads and it moved. So we took ONE of the factory sub inputs and connected it (mono) to the TwK. All of a sudden, BOOM. Subs are banging now. Naturally, YMMV but this is what I've found so far and had success with. If the sub becomes an issue, disconnecting and recalibrating isn't difficult.

I have a Mini-DSP UMIK1 mic that I used with REW. Naturally, the peaks in my RTA readings didn't fall within the 10 bands given. But, JL was nice enough to allow you to MOVE a band (for example, I can change 250 hz to another setting predefined within the TwK). Moving that, and adjusting the Q seemed to help move the peaks out of the RTA readings. I'll have to play more, and I need to tune the subs still.

That's what I know thus far - I'm happy to answer any questions you might have about what I've found or learned. All in all, great experience thus far and VERY clean quality sound.
Thanks for all of your help and please holler with questions. One item to note - there isn't a lot of info out there on the web due to the products being fairly new so I wanted to at least get something out there to folks using or looking at the FiX and/or TwK.

M

Edit: I used the DRC-200 that came with the TwK, not the DRC-100 for the FiX. OEM features work. Steering wheel, fader, OEM EQ etc. I haven't mounted/installed it yet (too cold) but will. I have it tied up in the back with the volumes maxed so I can adjust using the H/U.


----------



## PorkCereal

Be careful not using that load. Once that factory amp over heats it emits a high frequency that will melt tweeters. It was a thing posted in the st forums about the Sony systems.


----------



## valow

PorkCereal said:


> Be careful not using that load. Once that factory amp over heats it emits a high frequency that will melt tweeters. It was a thing posted in the st forums about the Sony systems.


I assume you're referring to the FIX-LSA-4? the only reason I removed it was due to calibration issues. I can certainly add it in again as it worked both ways.


----------



## dawaro

valow said:


> It's in and working - I'm very happy with it, but also found some learnings that I wanted to share. First, the LSA-4 was NOT necessary. The system doesn't mute, and grabs signal just fine. I ran the mids to 1/2, highs to 3/4 and left the sub out, until...
> 
> Worked out the kinks this morning. Had a couple of silly calibration issues which I can only relate to a poorly crimped barrel connector. That resolved it, recalibrated fine. After all was said and done, the subs were WEAK. To the point all the volume or gain in the world wouldn't help them. There are two leads coming off the Sony amp to the factory sub. We pulled the factory sub enclosure apart and sure enough, no amp inside the factory box, just a dual voice coil 8". Hooked a 9v to the leads and it moved. So we took ONE of the factory sub inputs and connected it (mono) to the TwK. All of a sudden, BOOM. Subs are banging now. Naturally, YMMV but this is what I've found so far and had success with. If the sub becomes an issue, disconnecting and recalibrating isn't difficult.
> 
> I have a Mini-DSP UMIK1 mic that I used with REW. Naturally, the peaks in my RTA readings didn't fall within the 10 bands given. But, JL was nice enough to allow you to MOVE a band (for example, I can change 250 hz to another setting predefined within the TwK). Moving that, and adjusting the Q seemed to help move the peaks out of the RTA readings. I'll have to play more, and I need to tune the subs still.


While I am not disputing your results I would recommend double checking your wiring on the mid and tweet inputs to make sure that nothing is out of phase.

It has been well documented that the sub channel clips rather quickly to the other channels and should not be used. That is the same reason that Rob recommended that it isnt used.

When I started working on my truck I did a lot of research between this forum and others. I even discussed the install with the guys at several shops and not one had issues with bass output without using the Sony sub outputs.

Also have you disconnected the rear speakers? If so you may need some type of resistance on those outputs to keep the Sony from cycling.

I have used both the AudioControl LC7i and the 3Sixty3 and have never used the sub output.


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> While I am not disputing your results I would recommend double checking your wiring on the mid and tweet inputs to make sure that nothing is out of phase.
> 
> It has been well documented that the sub channel clips rather quickly to the other channels and should not be used. That is the same reason that Rob recommended that it isnt used.
> 
> When I started working on my truck I did a lot of research between this forum and others. I even discussed the install with the guys at several shops and not one had issues with bass output without using the Sony sub outputs.
> 
> Also have you disconnected the rear speakers? If so you may need some type of resistance on those outputs to keep the Sony from cycling.
> 
> I have used both the AudioControl LC7i and the 3Sixty3 and have never used the sub output.


Funny you should mention that, since I literally just spoke to JL. The amp I have is older than what you have apparently because it's doing everything correctly. No clipping is happening and it hasn't shut anything down.

Rear speakers high levels aren't connected to anything, but I can look at that. I have them wired direct to the amp that's driving them.

What is the date of manufacture of your truck? Also, did you pull the factory sub out of the enclosure? What was inside? Mine was very simply a dual voice coil 8" sub.

Edit: To that note JL confirmed they have seen some Sony amps not provide a full range signal with just the mids and highs from the front...which mine wasn't. The bottom half was missing, say 20-50 hz.

Edit2: I have another FIX-LSA-4 coming for the subs. It's connected mono FYI. I can terminate the rear door high levels to that, and just leave it disconnected from the FiX, worst case.


----------



## dawaro

valow said:


> Funny you should mention that, since I literally just spoke to JL. The amp I have is older than what you have apparently because it's doing everything correctly. No clipping is happening and it hasn't shut anything down.
> 
> Rear speakers high levels aren't connected to anything, but I can look at that. I have them wired direct to the amp that's driving them.
> 
> What is the date of manufacture of your truck? Also, did you pull the factory sub out of the enclosure? What was inside? Mine was very simply a dual voice coil 8" sub.
> 
> Edit: To that note JL confirmed they have seen some Sony amps not provide a full range signal with just the mids and highs from the front...which mine wasn't. The bottom half was missing, say 20-50 hz.
> 
> Edit2: I have another FIX-LSA-4 coming for the subs. It's connected mono FYI. I can terminate the rear door high levels to that, and just leave it disconnected from the FiX, worst case.


My mfg date is 08/14. My prior post should have said I have been messing with it since January 2015, not 2014.

The issue with the sub channel has be documented for a while. At least as far back a the 2012 models. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1709770-post4.html

Its been so long since I pulled the factory sub out that I cant say for sure if the amp is on the box but I can say for sure that while it might not be line level it is a lower level output than the rest of the speakers. IIRC the Sony sub is 2 ohm per coil or something to that affect.

One thing you can do is check the factory signal on each channel as outlined in this thread. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/168990-testing-factory-frequency-response-per-channel.html then you will know exactly what kind of signal response you are getting.

As far as the clipping issue with the Sony amp it isn't something that is always constant. I have heard people that had no issues and then all of a sudden the amp goes into a vicious clipping cycle and they find themselves needing new tweeters...


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> My mfg date is 08/14. My prior post should have said I have been messing with it since January 2015, not 2014.
> 
> The issue with the sub channel has be documented for a while. At least as far back a the 2012 models. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1709770-post4.html
> 
> Its been so long since I pulled the factory sub out that I cant say for sure if the amp is on the box but I can say for sure that while it might not be line level it is a lower level output than the rest of the speakers. IIRC the Sony sub is 2 ohm per coil or something to that affect.
> 
> One thing you can do is check the factory signal on each channel as outlined in this thread. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/168990-testing-factory-frequency-response-per-channel.html then you will know exactly what kind of signal response you are getting.
> 
> As far as the clipping issue with the Sony amp it isn't something that is always constant. I have heard people that had no issues and then all of a sudden the amp goes into a vicious clipping cycle and they find themselves needing new tweeters...


This is all awesome information - thanks.

I suppose my question then becomes why am I not getting a full range signal out of that Sony amp using just the mids and highs? That's the part that confuses me. JL even said some of them don't send it with just those 4 speakers. I can test the signal coming out of those connections when I get home.

Edit: I think I remember an install cross up with my friend and I...the subs are wired mono, but were out of phase. I wonder if that has anything to do with it. (neg to pos, pos to neg).


----------



## Dustin

Do you have the sync with the large screen? I was able to get a flat constant signal before the amp, just tapped into it and ran an RCA to the helix. I get most vehicle sounds as well as calls, still working on the output for the other tones, need to put a scope on the alert signal. I did it this way because the helix doesn't have volume adjusted eq, so I use the helix volume control. The small sync screen is supposed to be even easier.

I previously had a bit one, very good integration. Fed the front tw/mids and rear channels out of the Sony amp, didn't use the sub output. The good thing about the bit one is it has dynamic eq to adjust for factory volume curves. All volume controls and settings worked perfectly. I'd still be using it if it had a parametric eq and some other advanced options.


----------



## marcus1033

Ok, I have 2013 F150 FX4, all options. Yes stuck with factory H/U because of its controls. You have to use signal post amp. Also, just use RT and LT door speaker outputs post amp, because they are full range. No need to sum tweeters, because they are full range with bass blockers installed in line. No need to sum sub output, because door speakers are full range. I have Rockford Fosgate 363.3 and it works flawless hooked up with no summing required. Again you have complete full range from LT and RT door speakers. Pics of how I did my midrange and tweets. Sounds good, will be doing pods down the road for tweets. Both are scanspeak, with SI TM 65


----------



## valow

I do have the Sync with the large screen. It's a can bus H/U so I didn't tap anything pre-amp...it's all out of the amp. I'm stumped as to why I didn't get a full range signal out of the doors (RT and LT mids, plus the Tweeters). I'm not running a Helix, but a JL FiX then optical out to a JL TwK.


----------



## dawaro

valow said:


> I think I remember an install cross up with my friend and I...the subs are wired mono, but were out of phase. I wonder if that has anything to do with it. (neg to pos, pos to neg).


This could have a lot to do with it. Look at the link that I posted on measuring the factory response. It is really easy to do and you can see exactly what the response is on each output.


----------



## dawaro

Dustin said:


> Do you have the sync with the large screen? I was able to get a flat constant signal before the amp, just tapped into it and ran an RCA to the helix. I get most vehicle sounds as well as calls, still working on the output for the other tones, need to put a scope on the alert signal. I did it this way because the helix doesn't have volume adjusted eq, so I use the helix volume control. The small sync screen is supposed to be even easier.


I am curious to hear how you accomplished this with the audio signals running on the CAN-BUS. Can you share the details?

The Sony amplifier also provides the audio for the Sync and Navigation systems as well as other audio alerts. I would like to hear how you compensated for those as well.

There are a few threads about people being able to re-program the ACM unit but that also requires a bit of re-wiring to account for the audible alerts and the last time I spoke with the individual that posted he was able to do it he was still working the bugs out and it looked like it was going to require re-programming several modules for users with the Sony systems.


----------



## dawaro

valow said:


> I do have the Sync with the large screen. It's a can bus H/U so I didn't tap anything pre-amp...it's all out of the amp. I'm stumped as to why I didn't get a full range signal out of the doors (RT and LT mids, plus the Tweeters). I'm not running a Helix, but a JL FiX then optical out to a JL TwK.


You could always try using just the RT/LT and recalibrating and see if that makes a difference.

I have mine torn apart at the moment so if I have time I will try hooking some speakers up to the RT/LT outputs to see if they are in fact full range.


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> You could always try using just the RT/LT and recalibrating and see if that makes a difference.
> 
> I have mine torn apart at the moment so if I have time I will try hooking some speakers up to the RT/LT outputs to see if they are in fact full range.


That is part of my question - the door speakers (mids) were suppose to have a full range signal. I wonder if the tweeters being connected some how interfered with that. I get home late Friday but have some clean up to do on the system, add the LSA4s back in and try again. I'll bring in just the mids/doors and see if that brings in full range. I'll also do what you linked and see what signal is coming out, for sure. I can report back Saturday or Sunday. I intend to continue populating this thread as the Sony system seems to be a giant PITA for all.

Edit: Selfishly enough, I do wish Rob would chime back in.


----------



## valow

So I understand the process you linked, I'm going to have 1 high level attached to the FiX, say the sub. I'll run RCA to 3.5 and connect to my laptop - then run a sweep to see what REW plots? I can't do this via the TwK because it's being sent a flat signal from the FiX


----------



## optimaprime

I have 2013 crew cab fx4 with Sony and 8 inch screen will be doing two way active with helix dsp. I plan to just get signal from Sony amp high levels feed that to my helix. I have way that my buddy does it he's on here with kicker raptor build crew cab using kicker amps with dsp built in.I copy and paste his way. I am torn between using some 20ohm resistors which are super cheap or fix 82 with load adaptors. If your talking little over 300 bucks for that. So the Sony amp see some kinda load.


----------



## optimaprime

Jowens500 is his name. I like his idea. Grab highlevel signal from rear doors feed that to helix dsp for front components. Then you take the high level signal from fronts and feed that to rear doors so you get all your factory chimes and noises . I am only doing two active upfront with sub. Leaving rear stock doors.


----------



## Dustin

A 2013/2014 F150 with sony/myford touch does not use a can-bus signal for audio into the DSP, at least not for music and calls. There is a fixed level flat analog signal coming out of the ACM you can tap into. 4 wires labeled Stereo L +/- & Stereo R +/- on the schematic. However I have not been able to get the navigation tones. I have read where others were able to get these tones out of the alerts signal from the ACM, but I need to do some more probing with a scope. I went this route so I wouldn't need to buy the FiX. I am hoping the sony DSP doesn't store these tones.

As for the Sony outputs into the Fix not giving a full range signal, that is awfully strange as everyone seems to say even just the tweeter signals alone are full range. I can't personally say as I've never looked at the output. I can say that when I had a local shop do my previous install, they used the front tw and mids and the rear channels, no sub input. I did have full range. Your best bet is probably just to read the actual outputs and find out like you're planning.


----------



## optimaprime

Hmmmm this sounds like super pain in the ass .


----------



## dawaro

valow said:


> So I understand the process you linked, I'm going to have 1 high level attached to the FiX, say the sub. I'll run RCA to 3.5 and connect to my laptop - then run a sweep to see what REW plots? I can't do this via the TwK because it's being sent a flat signal from the FiX


It is only going see the frequency range supplied by the output. If the mid range isn't supplying a full range output the TWK can't make up for that. This is why you check the outputs individually. This will show you which outputs are full range and which ones are not.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> It is only going see the frequency range supplied by the output. If the mid range isn't supplying a full range output the TWK can't make up for that. This is why you check the outputs individually. This will show you which outputs are full range and which ones are not.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


And I agree with that - however if I ran the mids and highs (doors and tweeters) to the FiX, ONE of those should provide a full range signal. The TwK will deal with what it's handed and like I said, didn't get full range.

I can at least check each, including the rear doors and see where I'm getting a full range. I just have to better understand the process using REW to do it.


----------



## Unsecured_WiFi

As a owner of a 2016 focus st3 I am waiting on one of these devices to do my install.

DSR1 - 8-Channel Interactive Signal Processor w/ Integrated iDatalink Maestro Module | Rockford Fosgate®

XR600-6DSP | eXcelon | CAR ENTERTAINMENT | KENWOOD USA

Pac-Audio.com Product Details | iPod Integration for your car and More by Pac-Audio - Connecting you to the future

Axxess Digital Signal Processor

they all can plug in before the stock amp volume control.


----------



## marcus1033

Sorry, just read about you not getting full signal from mids. Sorry, I skipped that part. Maybe try F150online for advice. I'm sure someone on that site has had that issue.


----------



## valow

marcus1033 said:


> Sorry, just read about you not getting full signal from mids. Sorry, I skipped that part. Maybe try F150online for advice. I'm sure someone on that site has had that issue.


Just asked over there. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## jtaudioacc

Unsecured_WiFi said:


> As a owner of a 2016 focus st3 I am waiting on one of these devices to do my install.
> 
> DSR1 - 8-Channel Interactive Signal Processor w/ Integrated iDatalink Maestro Module | Rockford Fosgate®
> 
> XR600-6DSP | eXcelon | CAR ENTERTAINMENT | KENWOOD USA
> 
> Pac-Audio.com Product Details | iPod Integration for your car and More by Pac-Audio - Connecting you to the future
> 
> Axxess Digital Signal Processor
> 
> they all can plug in before the stock amp volume control.


those are pretty exciting. hope at least one of them works great. lol


----------



## Unsecured_WiFi

jtaudioacc said:


> those are pretty exciting. hope at least one of them works great. lol


Christ on a cracker™ one of them better. I will even go the pac route with no dsp if it just functions.


----------



## valow

Unsecured_WiFi said:


> Christ on a cracker™ one of them better. I will even go the pac route with no dsp if it just functions.


I lol'd


----------



## jtaudioacc

Unsecured_WiFi said:


> Christ on a cracker™ one of them better. I will even go the pac route with no dsp if it just functions.


for the most part, i'd probably use the more simple solution since i'd most likely add a dsp after. the digital out board is a nice thing to have as well.


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> You could always try using just the RT/LT and recalibrating and see if that makes a difference.
> 
> I have mine torn apart at the moment so if I have time I will try hooking some speakers up to the RT/LT outputs to see if they are in fact full range.


Just curious if you happened to try this? I'm going to Saturday. I'll post pics from REW


----------



## dawaro

valow said:


> Just curious if you happened to try this? I'm going to Saturday. I'll post pics from REW


I hope to try it this weekend weather depending. It may not be an overly scientific test being that everything is pulled out at the moment but at the very least I will hook up some full range speakers and test the different outputs.


----------



## Lexingtonian

It's now not too big of a deal to convert the Sony Stereo to variable line level and feed a DSP before the stupid Sony Amp. Requires a $30 ODBII/MS-CAN bus device from Amazon and the free Forscan tool. Chimes and voice don't seem to be a big deal either.

Best thread on the topic I know of here..


----------



## Lexingtonian

Unprocessed Line Level Preamp Output Now Possible from ACM (Factory Radio)


----------



## jtaudioacc

Lexingtonian said:


> It's now not too big of a deal to convert the Sony Stereo to variable line level and feed a DSP before the stupid Sony Amp. Requires a $30 ODBII/MS-CAN bus device from Amazon and the free Forscan tool. Chimes and voice don't seem to be a big deal either.
> 
> Best thread on the topic I know of here..


the sweeps the guy did later in the thread don't show a flat signal. the guy never responded after that. hmm.


----------



## Lexingtonian

jtaudioacc said:


> the sweeps the guy did later in the thread don't show a flat signal. the guy never responded after that. hmm.


Yeah it kind of became a pissing match of which the FordEscape guy aired out his issue in a ***ty nice way on a different forum.

Unprocessed Line Level Preamp Output Now Possible from ACM (Factory Radio)

Looks like ford could be applying an eq curve based on volume. Put it in perspective though most guys with those vehicles that have aftermarketed their cars have dsp's taking in an utterly clipped high level signal AND any ghetto EQing ford is doing. What a train wreck.

Now we have clean variable line level.

Time to conquer the EQ. A little more info on some of that in this thread..

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...sion/318578-2017-f150-sony-system-delete.html


----------



## optimaprime

valow said:


> I was hoping someone with the same vehicle would chime in! Thanks. So that said, how do you run your subs? I'm going to take the front L/R high levels for the mid and tweet, and will run those to the DSP ONLY. I'll probably go Helix, because I like that product a lot and should be able to "de-EQ" and normalize everything via REW, the DSP RTA and my RTA mic. My only question is how your sub amp is ran - did you just use the factory low level signal directly to your sub and left it off the DSP, or did you sum that with a high level from the fronts and then ran your channels accordingly in the DSP?
> 
> Thanks again - this is helpful


On the helix Dsp you simple choose your input signal and send it to all the channels of the Dsp. I did this with helix Dsp in my old car for two active setup plus sub. I will do this in my Sony system crewcab ford truck 2013 fx4 8 touch screen. So you only need say your front door speakers for high level in and can power the whole system with them. Sorry if this has been covered I am still reading thread.


----------



## dawaro

Lexingtonian said:


> Yeah it kind of became a pissing match of which the FordEscape guy aired out his issue in a ***ty nice way on a different forum.
> 
> Unprocessed Line Level Preamp Output Now Possible from ACM (Factory Radio)
> 
> Looks like ford could be applying an eq curve based on volume. Put it in perspective though most guys with those vehicles that have aftermarketed their cars have dsp's taking in an utterly clipped high level signal AND any ghetto EQing ford is doing. What a train wreck.
> 
> Now we have clean variable line level.
> 
> Time to conquer the EQ. A little more info on some of that in this thread..
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...sion/318578-2017-f150-sony-system-delete.html


Just FYI, Alan and I worked with him for several months on this. It only became ***tty as you say when the results didnt match what was promised and Alan was seeking to return the unit.

The signal doesnt clip until a click or two before full volume as long as you dont use the sub channels. With FordEscape's situation his vehicle didnt even have the Sony system.

I have had two different individuals tell me they could provide a variable pre-out on this unit with the TA and roll-off defeated. Once I started asking technical questions and asking for before and after measurements they both stopped answering my emails.

I have even worked with the developers of Forscan about what changes need to be made to the programming to provide a flat output. They disproved the settings the first individual provided.

Unfortunately to the truth of the matter is that with the Sony system the signal comes in as a L/R signal and is processed in the Sony DSP to provide front, rear, center and sub channels. While the audio signal itself may not be controlled by the CAN bus all of the other options are (steering wheel controls, fader, master volume).

So far best option for this system appears to be the soon to be released RF DSR1. I have used the i-Data Maestro products in a couple of BMW's and they worked great. Being that the DSR1 is a collaboration between the two companies I am really looking forward to it.


----------



## Lexingtonian

dawaro said:


> Just FYI, Alan and I worked with him for several months on this. It only became ***tty as you say when the results didnt match what was promised and Alan was seeking to return the unit.
> 
> The signal doesnt clip until a click or two before full volume as long as you dont use the sub channels. With FordEscape's situation his vehicle didnt even have the Sony system.
> 
> I have had two different individuals tell me they could provide a variable pre-out on this unit with the TA and roll-off defeated. Once I started asking technical questions and asking for before and after measurements they both stopped answering my emails.
> 
> I have even worked with the developers of Forscan about what changes need to be made to the programming to provide a flat output. They disproved the settings the first individual provided.
> 
> Unfortunately to the truth of the matter is that with the Sony system the signal comes in as a L/R signal and is processed in the Sony DSP to provide front, rear, center and sub channels. While the audio signal itself may not be controlled by the CAN bus all of the other options are (steering wheel controls, fader, master volume).
> 
> So far best option for this system appears to be the soon to be released RF DSR1. I have used the i-Data Maestro products in a couple of BMW's and they worked great. Being that the DSR1 is a collaboration between the two companies I am really looking forward to it.


Hey thanks for the write up, research and reply. So is it your understanding that the TA is coming from the ACM or the DSP (amp)? It's appears for certain the rolloff is coming from the ACM. Care to share the details from the forscan guys?

Line 80,81 on the ACM tab here shows some EQ settings, get to play with those during your test?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uDSQ1Z5a2Wt8-kjrSiVSlDFGFHnfeuhb3RTMVz95730/htmlview#


----------



## dawaro

Lexingtonian said:


> Hey thanks for the write up, research and reply. So is it your understanding that the TA is coming from the ACM or the DSP (amp)? It's appears for certain the rolloff is coming from the ACM. Care to share the details from the forscan guys?
> 
> Line 80,81 on the ACM tab here shows some EQ settings, get to play with those during your test?
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uDSQ1Z5a2Wt8-kjrSiVSlDFGFHnfeuhb3RTMVz95730/htmlview#


The guys from Forscan didnt offer a lot of details other than the instructions I was given from another member on here were incorrect. At the time they had not done any research on the correct settings.

IMO I would figure the TA would be coming from the DSP module as it doesnt seem to be an issue for folks without the Sony system. The rolloff appears to come from the ACM as it shows up in results for both Sony and Non-Sony systems. I have the schematics for all three but it has been a while since I reviewed them so I cant say for sure. Being that the signal is sent to the CAN bus it could take place in the ACM, ACIM or DSP.

This is why I am so interested in the Rockford/Maestro piece. It is described as being able to intercept the audio signal and re-route it to their piece. I am anxiously waiting for it to be released. All information I have indicates late March, early April.

This whole issue is why my truck is in pieces right now...

I got frustrated over the HU issues and just stopped. Right now I have enough JL, RF, AudioFrog and Sundown equipment to build two vehicles. I had even more but I sold my ES Audio equipment to another member here.

I will try to pull my As-Built data and compare it to the spreadsheet you linked to. Being that my truck is a 2014 I am not sure how the results will compare.


----------



## valow

So I'm back with some updates. Got in to the system yesterday and did some fine tuning and tweaking. Good news and odd news, as usual.

I had to fix the physical connections of my mids/highs and then route it properly in the TwK. I had something crossed, so it was working fine but a bit confusing when working in the DSP.

All that settled, I installed the FIX-LSA-4 and wired JUST the mids and highs. I wanted to verify if I was getting a full range signal. Low and behold, I was! So the sub channels are not connected and the sounds is good. Now for the odd. With the LSA connected inline, after a certain amount of time, the system would shut down. As in, head unit was on, FiX would power off, causing everything else to power off. Finding that odd I verified that all of the power was good, grounds etc. Moved the grounds to a new point, tried again - same issue. WTF?! Removed the LSA...problem solved. I cannot explain this, but it's what it is.

Now that I have full range signal, the sound is good - I need to massage the mids and highs in the DSP, as they are still pretty bright and can be calmed down a bit. I did get a good curve on the subs too, so I'm happy with that. I do like the 10 band parametric JL offers - actually simplifies the tuning quite a bit. I'll post some REW sweeps tomorrow as I'm going to tune it up a bit.

Next, is a big spring time update. Big 3 upgrade, then I'll be running 0 and 4 AWG to the back and distribute power from a block there. Also, I'll re-run all my speaker wires and clean that up. The system has been touched so much it needs a good old clean up. Then remounting some stuff and probably a final solution - I've been looking at the PAC audio stuff due out. I don't want to lose my TwK as I like it, but I also am not sure how in love I am with the RF solution after my 3sixty headaches. From what I understand, you can bypass the 3sixty tuning pieces all together and just use the integration piece? I'll do some research on that for sure.

Last piece - I'm currently running 3 amps total, and I'd like to reduce the footprint a bit so I'm considering replacing my RF Punch amps for the components and driving them with a JL 6 channel. Unsure yet. I will be removing the FiX - not for any reason other than I need to tap in pre-amp, and that piece won't be needed once I do that. Great product, if anyone wants to buy it next spring let me know. haha.

Trying to think of what I might have forgotten or left out - happy to answer any questions. I do want to say thank you to EVERYONE for the insight, and great sense of community. This post and forum has been a very enlightening experience. And I didn't get called a dumbass (out loud) by anyone! 

I am confused about the LSA piece...it essentially muted it, and then powered off. Really odd.


----------



## Dustin

dawaro said:


> So far best option for this system appears to be the soon to be released RF DSR1. I have used the i-Data Maestro products in a couple of BMW's and they worked great. Being that the DSR1 is a collaboration between the two companies I am really looking forward to it.


What do you know about the RF DSR1? Will it work with the 2013/2014 myford touch sony systems? I spoke with idatalink a couple months ago about their maestro system. They told me that the system was far too integrated into the vehicle and their engineers had suspended trying to work with all sync 2 vehicles with mft. It would be an awesome solution, especially the price.


----------



## dawaro

valow said:


> I had to fix the physical connections of my mids/highs and then route it properly in the TwK. I had something crossed, so it was working fine but a bit confusing when working in the DSP.
> 
> All that settled, I installed the FIX-LSA-4 and wired JUST the mids and highs. I wanted to verify if I was getting a full range signal. Low and behold, I was! So the sub channels are not connected and the sounds is good.


Aren't you glad you double checked the wiring? 



valow said:


> Now for the odd. With the LSA connected inline, after a certain amount of time, the system would shut down. As in, head unit was on, FiX would power off, causing everything else to power off. Finding that odd I verified that all of the power was good, grounds etc. Moved the grounds to a new point, tried again - same issue. WTF?! Removed the LSA...problem solved. I cannot explain this, but it's what it is.


Sounds like the signal sensing turn on is the issue. This is why I recommend using the 5v remote for the Sony amplifier. You can use a 5v relay to trigger a second relay that is connected to a 12v constant source to act as the remote wire for the Fix.

Could also be that since you have the rear speakers disconnected the amp is shutting down since it expects to see a load on those channels. You could try adding resistors across the rear outputs.



valow said:


> I've been looking at the PAC audio stuff due out. I don't want to lose my TwK as I like it, but I also am not sure how in love I am with the RF solution after my 3sixty headaches. From what I understand, you can bypass the 3sixty tuning pieces all together and just use the integration piece? I'll do some research on that for sure.


There is also a piece coming out from Metra as well but it also includes DSP functions. Since you already have the TwK I would suggest the PAC piece with the optical output. It would simply replace the FiX piece. PAC has the installation manual online now so you can review it and see what options it has.


----------



## dawaro

Dustin said:


> What do you know about the RF DSR1? Will it work with the 2013/2014 myford touch sony systems? I spoke with idatalink a couple months ago about their maestro system. They told me that the system was far too integrated into the vehicle and their engineers had suspended trying to work with all sync 2 vehicles with mft. It would be an awesome solution, especially the price.


Mostly just what was included in the press release. The system was a partnership between ADS and RF and the initial firmware release is supposed to be limited to Ford and Chrysler vehicles. It was designed to work with the MFT systems. Just like the PAC interface it intercepts the audio data on the CAN bus and redirects it to the DSP which is essentially the 3sixty3. Hopefully that means they have also upgraded the software for the 3Sixty3.

When I inquired about the piece with RF they said they could not release any additional information at this time but would have the documentation on the website as it got closer to the expected release date of March/April. I still have some friends that work in the industry and had them try to get information on it for me but they got the same answer I did. Would be nice to know if anyone is beta testing the unit and could share some insight.

I am assuming it would be a solid piece if ADS is willing to put the Maestro name on it. I have used a couple of there interfaces on some BMW's for a friend and they were solid products.


----------



## Lexingtonian

dawaro said:


> Sounds like the signal sensing turn on is the issue. This is why I recommend using the 5v remote for the Sony amplifier. You can use a 5v relay to trigger a second relay that is connected to a 12v constant source to act as the remote wire for the Fix.
> 
> Could also be that since you have the rear speakers disconnected the amp is shutting down since it expects to see a load on those channels. You could try adding resistors across the rear outputs.




I believe the Speaker detection can be disabled using Forscan.

See this spreadsheet on the ACM Tab, lines 37-45.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uDSQ1Z5a2Wt8-kjrSiVSlDFGFHnfeuhb3RTMVz95730/htmlview#


----------



## valow

Going to go tinker a bit, set some gains using a 0db 50 Hz tone for the subs, and play with REW a bit for level matching. Anyone interested in REW sweeps? I'll grab some screens just in case


----------



## marcus1033

363.3 software will not be upgradable to work similar to dsr1.


----------



## marcus1033

I've also been considering just using master volume on ROCKFORDFOSGATE 363.3, so that I don't have to deal with Ford volume EQ change. Just dial it in flat, set it, and forget it.


----------



## valow

Level matching


----------



## optimaprime

Hmmmmm well it's either highlevel or wait for RF piece


----------



## valow

pics of the install - retrofit coming this spring so more pics then.


----------



## optimaprime

Awesome


----------



## valow

file size issues - there you go.

Thanks again fora ll the help and support. I'll be sure to post tons of pics this spring. Even looking at sub upgrades how. Ported enclosures are tough but with my music type I'm better off with one so I'll have to see if I can pull off a 12 or something in there and boost up that bass.


----------



## valow

optimaprime said:


> Hmmmmm well it's either highlevel or wait for RF piece


I've made my decision.

Pac-Audio.com Product Details | iPod Integration for your car and More by Pac-Audio - Connecting you to the future

Manual here:
http://www.pac-audio.com/downloads/ap4-fd21_instructions_122816.pdf

I'll go with the optional TOSlink and then just connect straight to my TwK. I'll probably have to sell the FiX, but it's been great so far!


----------



## dawaro

marcus1033 said:


> 363.3 software will not be upgradable to work similar to dsr1.


Is this based on actual information you have or just speculation?


----------



## MacLeod

valow said:


> I've made my decision.
> 
> Pac-Audio.com Product Details | iPod Integration for your car and More by Pac-Audio - Connecting you to the future
> 
> Manual here:
> http://www.pac-audio.com/downloads/ap4-fd21_instructions_122816.pdf
> 
> I'll go with the optional TOSlink and then just connect straight to my TwK. I'll probably have to sell the FiX, but it's been great so far!


That piece looks very interesting. Im planning a build on my 2016 F150 SCrew (non-Sony) and have been wracking my brain trying to figure out what to do with the head unit.

Does anyone know what kind of factory EQ is done on a non-Sony system? I've looked but can't seem to find anything. Everything seems to be about the Sony systems. I may just fail at Google tho.


----------



## marcus1033

dawaro said:


> marcus1033 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 363.3 software will not be upgradable to work similar to dsr1.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this based on actual information you have or just speculation?
Click to expand...


I got this info from RF. I asked about if the software would be upgradable to work with can bus signal and another question. This was there response: 

Response Via Email(Forrest Hamberlin) - 01/17/2017 08:59 AM
the can bus option will be for the DSR-1 only. the set up is done at max undistorted volume. the EQ should be flat. as you raise the bass the distortion increases. better to start with a clean signal and add bass through the 360.3 and not at the front on the radio or the signal will get saturated and dirty.


----------



## valow

MacLeod said:


> That piece looks very interesting. Im planning a build on my 2016 F150 SCrew (non-Sony) and have been wracking my brain trying to figure out what to do with the head unit.
> 
> Does anyone know what kind of factory EQ is done on a non-Sony system? I've looked but can't seem to find anything. Everything seems to be about the Sony systems. I may just fail at Google tho.


TBH, if you aren't dealing with Sony, I'd just replace the H/U. But that's just me.


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> Is this based on actual information you have or just speculation?


I was going to ask you - what subs are you running? I listen to quite a bit of hip hop, and now that I have things tuned and configured based on correct voltage, I need more bang out of them. Let me know what you're running and how you like them if you don't mind. I'm not sure I can get a large enough enclosure to run a ported box with a 12 - but the shallow mount JLs look interesting.


----------



## valow

Looking at some JL TW3 10s to replace my Kenwoods. They are shallow mounts, and only need .5 cubic ft. The enclosure I have is .86 cubic ft. per sub. Will this be ok or will they not perform as well?

Enclosure:
FORD10 2009 DF - QPower


----------



## dawaro

MacLeod said:


> That piece looks very interesting. Im planning a build on my 2016 F150 SCrew (non-Sony) and have been wracking my brain trying to figure out what to do with the head unit.
> 
> Does anyone know what kind of factory EQ is done on a non-Sony system? I've looked but can't seem to find anything. Everything seems to be about the Sony systems. I may just fail at Google tho.


Look at the link in this post earlier in this thread. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/4400562-post83.html 

The HU involved was a non-Sony unit and it still showed so factory EQ even after it had been modified.

If you are adventurous you can try to modify the settings with Forscan. There is a link to a spreadsheet with a lot of the different items that can be changed with the application and a scan tool.


----------



## dawaro

marcus1033 said:


> I got this info from RF. I asked about if the software would be upgradable to work with can bus signal and another question. This was there response:
> 
> Response Via Email(Forrest Hamberlin) - 01/17/2017 08:59 AM
> the can bus option will be for the DSR-1 only. the set up is done at max undistorted volume. the EQ should be flat. as you raise the bass the distortion increases. better to start with a clean signal and add bass through the 360.3 and not at the front on the radio or the signal will get saturated and dirty.


But that doesn't say that the software interface will not be updated. The CAN-bus function is done with the Maestro firmware, not the DSP. Rockford has stated that the DSR-1 includes a fully functional 3Sixty.3 DSP and that there will be a mobile application to control it. That is what has lead me to hope that the software for the DSP will be upgraded as well.


----------



## dawaro

valow said:


> Looking at some JL TW3 10s to replace my Kenwoods. They are shallow mounts, and only need .5 cubic ft. The enclosure I have is .86 cubic ft. per sub. Will this be ok or will they not perform as well?
> 
> Enclosure:
> FORD10 2009 DF - QPower


PM sent


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> PM sent


Standing by. Thanks


----------



## dawaro

Just FYI, I got an email from AAMP this morning that stated the AP4 is currently shipping in limited quantities.



valow said:


> I've made my decision.
> 
> Pac-Audio.com Product Details | iPod Integration for your car and More by Pac-Audio - Connecting you to the future
> 
> Manual here:
> http://www.pac-audio.com/downloads/ap4-fd21_instructions_122816.pdf
> 
> I'll go with the optional TOSlink and then just connect straight to my TwK. I'll probably have to sell the FiX, but it's been great so far!


----------



## valow

No way! How do I get my hands on one? LOL


----------



## dawaro

ABT Electronics has them listed on their website currently for $249

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

TOS module isn't available yet, sadly. I may wait for them both to release. I know myself well enough to know that if it's sitting on my bench, I'll want to install it.


----------



## valow

Just confirmed it - they are available mid February. ABT has them available to pre-order.


----------



## MacLeod

dawaro said:


> Look at the link in this post earlier in this thread. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/4400562-post83.html
> 
> The HU involved was a non-Sony unit and it still showed so factory EQ even after it had been modified.
> 
> If you are adventurous you can try to modify the settings with Forscan. There is a link to a spreadsheet with a lot of the different items that can be changed with the application and a scan tool.


Thanks! I must've missed that link. I'll dig into it. If it's just slight EQ, I could fix that with a processor and may not need something like the Fix.



valow said:


> TBH, if you aren't dealing with Sony, I'd just replace the H/U. But that's just me.


I've still got the 8" LCD with Sync 3 and all the bells and whistles, back up camera running through it as well as my Sirius so ditching it is my last option. Besides I don't think there are any kits out there yet other than the Scoche that places the LCD screen where the AC controls are with new ones but the reports are the buttons are shoddy quality and kinda buggy.


----------



## dawaro

MacLeod said:


> I've still got the 8" LCD with Sync 3 and all the bells and whistles, back up camera running through it as well as my Sirius so ditching it is my last option. Besides I don't think there are any kits out there yet other than the Scoche that places the LCD screen where the AC controls are with new ones but the reports are the buttons are shoddy quality and kinda buggy.


 Yea the Scoche kits look like crap to me personally.

Without the Sony system you can use any DSP that will sum the inputs to give you a full range signal. If you dont plan to use a DSP you can use the new PAC interface as well.


----------



## marcus1033

dawaro said:


> marcus1033 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got this info from RF. I asked about if the software would be upgradable to work with can bus signal and another question. This was there response:
> 
> Response Via Email(Forrest Hamberlin) - 01/17/2017 08:59 AM
> the can bus option will be for the DSR-1 only. the set up is done at max undistorted volume. the EQ should be flat. as you raise the bass the distortion increases. better to start with a clean signal and add bass through the 360.3 and not at the front on the radio or the signal will get saturated and dirty.
> 
> 
> 
> But that doesn't say that the software interface will not be updated. The CAN-bus function is done with the Maestro firmware, not the DSP. Rockford has stated that the DSR-1 includes a fully functional 3Sixty.3 DSP and that there will be a mobile application to control it. That is what has lead me to hope that the software for the DSP will be upgraded as well.
Click to expand...

Maybe email tech support from there website. Maybe you can explain the question in a better manner than I did. Pretty much makes me want to downgrade to the dsr1, which is apparently an upgrade for my Ford vehicle.


----------



## MacLeod

dawaro said:


> Yea the Scoche kits look like crap to me personally.
> 
> Without the Sony system you can use any DSP that will sum the inputs to give you a full range signal. If you dont plan to use a DSP you can use the new PAC interface as well.


Looking at that link you provided it looks like the stock head unit does do some crap EQ rolling off the high frequencies as the volume increases and cranking the hell out of the bass at lower volumes. That ain't gonna fly. Guess I'm back to the Fix-82/Twk-D8 and using the DRC-200 for volume.


----------



## valow

MacLeod said:


> Looking at that link you provided it looks like the stock head unit does do some crap EQ rolling off the high frequencies as the volume increases and cranking the hell out of the bass at lower volumes. That ain't gonna fly. Guess I'm back to the Fix-82/Twk-D8 and using the DRC-200 for volume.


I thought you could have the stock headunit flashed to send a flat response? I swear there was a thread about that - let me look.


----------



## valow

MacLeod said:


> Looking at that link you provided it looks like the stock head unit does do some crap EQ rolling off the high frequencies as the volume increases and cranking the hell out of the bass at lower volumes. That ain't gonna fly. Guess I'm back to the Fix-82/Twk-D8 and using the DRC-200 for volume.


Ok, this piece confuses me. I'm running that exact setup - I can control volume via the head unit or the steering wheel, and the DRC-200 does the same thing. So my question, why do I need both? What am I missing?

Also, I am NOT a fan of the 3sixty after all the headache I had with mine, so I'm hesitant to go to the DSR-1. That said, do we know what is going to be the fix all even if the H/U is EQing? PAC won't solve it? I'm planning this retrofit/rebuild and don't want to keep toying with this system.


----------



## Dustin

I just got off the phone with PAC, they informed me that the AP4-FD21 will work with all 2013/14 f150 models. If you have an aftermarket DSP it looks like this will be the best option. It will tap into the fixed analog signal from the ACM for the source. From there it will read the can-bus signals for volume and internally adjust it's output. This means you will have a stable "flat" signal and the use of all factory volume settings including independent sync/call/alert volumes. This is awesome, I've been waiting years for someone to finally come out with a proper solution. They said the units will be available everywhere in the next couple weeks.

Valow, if you like the Twk you should be able to keep it. You'll just use the PAC unit to get a stable signal with factory volume controls, then use the Twk to eq what you want. The fixed factory signal isn't too bad. I'll post the response I measured a few days ago.


----------



## dawaro

MacLeod said:


> Looking at that link you provided it looks like the stock head unit does do some crap EQ rolling off the high frequencies as the volume increases and cranking the hell out of the bass at lower volumes. That ain't gonna fly. Guess I'm back to the Fix-82/Twk-D8 and using the DRC-200 for volume.


I need to verify it but I believe that can be defeated with Forscan and an ODB adapter.

Being that neither interface is out yet you might want to just wait and see what they can actually do.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## dawaro

valow said:


> I thought you could have the stock headunit flashed to send a flat response? I swear there was a thread about that - let me look.


This was discussed earlier. There are people that claim it can be done but actual measurements on one such unit did not match the claim. And that was a non-Sony unit. I think it was discussed in post 83.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## Dustin

Here's the factory fixed analog output from the ACM if anyone is interested.


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## MacLeod

Dustin said:


> Here's the factory fixed analog output from the ACM if anyone is interested.


Very interested. Judging by the other link, the HU turns down the low and high frequencies as the volume increases and jacks up bass boost at low volumes.

If it was just a static EQ, I could get around that with DSP but if it's variable with volume then I'd need something like the Fix at least that's how I understand it right now. I've been doing this stuff a long time but this is my first go-round trying to use a factory HU so I'm just now learning the ropes and could be misunderstanding something.


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## valow

Dustin said:


> I just got off the phone with PAC, they informed me that the AP4-FD21 will work with all 2013/14 f150 models. If you have an aftermarket DSP it looks like this will be the best option. It will tap into the fixed analog signal from the ACM for the source. From there it will read the can-bus signals for volume and internally adjust it's output. This means you will have a stable "flat" signal and the use of all factory volume settings including independent sync/call/alert volumes. This is awesome, I've been waiting years for someone to finally come out with a proper solution. They said the units will be available everywhere in the next couple weeks.
> 
> Valow, if you like the Twk you should be able to keep it. You'll just use the PAC unit to get a stable signal with factory volume controls, then use the Twk to eq what you want. The fixed factory signal isn't too bad. I'll post the response I measured a few days ago.


That is certainly promising, and it's the plan in my head. I'll most likely be this forums guinea pig and give it a shot.  Thanks for the info!

I do like the TwK - EQ'ing is fairly easy to do on a 10 band parametric because you can dial it how you want. The only gripe I have is that you can't adjust phase in a way I'd like. You can adjust the distance, but that's it.


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## valow

dawaro said:


> This was discussed earlier. There are people that claim it can be done but actual measurements on one such unit did not match the claim. And that was a non-Sony unit. I think it was discussed in post 83.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


I'll install this PAC, drive down and you can measure all you want.


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## dawaro

MacLeod said:


> Very interested. Judging by the other link, the HU turns down the low and high frequencies as the volume increases and jacks up bass boost at low volumes.
> 
> If it was just a static EQ, I could get around that with DSP but if it's variable with volume then I'd need something like the Fix at least that's how I understand it right now. I've been doing this stuff a long time but this is my first go-round trying to use a factory HU so I'm just now learning the ropes and could be misunderstanding something.


I have all of Alan's measurement files at home. If I get a chance I will look at them tonight and see how he took them. IIRC he actually took some measurements at different speeds.


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## dawaro

valow said:


> I'll install this PAC, drive down and you can measure all you want.


Don't get me wrong. I don't see any issues with the PAC interface. I already have one on order right now. It looks like there are some interesting options that it comes with and hopefully they will continue to develop even more.

I have a lot more faith in a piece of hardware that, from the pictures, appears to be connected to all of the modules that are in the audio portion of the system. Off the top of my head I know the ACM, APIM and DSP are all tied together.

What I have doubts on are that bypassing all the parts and settings are as easy as hooking up a scan tool and changing a few settings. Think about it, if it were that easy why would companies like PAC and Maestro not have come out with something to do this along time ago with all the trucks and cars that have this system in it?


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## valow

dawaro said:


> Don't get me wrong. I don't see any issues with the PAC interface. I already have one on order right now. It looks like there are some interesting options that it comes with and hopefully they will continue to develop even more.
> 
> I have a lot more faith in a piece of hardware that, from the pictures, appears to be connected to all of the modules that are in the audio portion of the system. Off the top of my head I know the ACM, APIM and DSP are all tied together.
> 
> What I have doubts on are that bypassing all the parts and settings are as easy as hooking up a scan tool and changing a few settings. Think about it, if it were that easy why would companies like PAC and Maestro not have come out with something to do this along time ago with all the trucks and cars that have this system in it?


I 100% agree with that statement, and your viewpoint. As I said, I spoke to a few people and the conversation at both SEMA and CES this year were to un&*$% Ford and the Sony system. I'm certainly hopeful. At any rate, it has to be an upgraded option over taking high level post amp.


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## MacLeod

dawaro said:


> I have all of Alan's measurement files at home. If I get a chance I will look at them tonight and see how he took them. IIRC he actually took some measurements at different speeds.


I would appreciate that! On mine you can turn off the speed sensitive setting but I'm worried about a variable EQ with the volume. Those measurements would be a huge help.



dawaro said:


> Don't get me wrong. I don't see any issues with the PAC interface. I already have one on order right now. It looks like there are some interesting options that it comes with and hopefully they will continue to develop even more.
> 
> I have a lot more faith in a piece of hardware that, from the pictures, appears to be connected to all of the modules that are in the audio portion of the system. Off the top of my head I know the ACM, APIM and DSP are all tied together.
> 
> What I have doubts on are that bypassing all the parts and settings are as easy as hooking up a scan tool and changing a few settings. Think about it, if it were that easy why would companies like PAC and Maestro not have come out with something to do this along time ago with all the trucks and cars that have this system in it?


I kinda wonder about that last part too. If it was as simple as turning off a few switches in the ACM, you could just run down to your local mechanic and give him $50 to get in there and do it for you.


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## dawaro

MacLeod said:


> I would appreciate that! On mine you can turn off the speed sensitive setting but I'm worried about a variable EQ with the volume. Those measurements would be a huge help.


Send me a PM with your email and I will send them to you.

***Disclaimer, Alan's results were from a Ford Escape and I haven't researched the Escape since I don't have one. I am in no way saying that the results are the same for the F150 but it does show the before and after measurements of a unit that was reprogrammed.


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## MacLeod

valow said:


> Ok, this piece confuses me. I'm running that exact setup - I can control volume via the head unit or the steering wheel, and the DRC-200 does the same thing. So my question, why do I need both? What am I missing?


The thing is with the factory HU, it changes the EQ with the volume. According to the measurements dawaro sent, there is crazy high bass boost at low volumes and crazy roll off of high frequencies in the higher volumes. The Fix and Twk calibrate on a certain volume and that means it'll have a certain EQ curve. If you use the factory volume control, it'll change the EQ curve dependent on the volume. This won't make your speakers blow up or anything but you're just kinda defeating the purpose of the Fix. 

If you use the DRC-200, the Fix (or Twk) are actually increasing the volume and it's based on the calibrated and flat curve from the Fix.

After some more reading, I think I'm with you now and wanting that PAC piece. That thing is almost too good to be true! The optical output looks great too but then you're back to having to use the DSP's remote control for volume. I may just stick with the RCA outputs so I can keep the factory volume controls, not sure tho. 

But yeah, that PAC is like a mini Fix that you can stuff behind your dash and not have to worry about taking up any room! I love it!

Only thing is I'm not sure what is it doing? Is it simply cutting into the factory speaker outputs from the radio and converting them to RCA outputs? If so, what makes it different than any other LOC? Or is it intercepting the signal before it gets to the factory DSP?



Dustin said:


> I just got off the phone with PAC, they informed me that the AP4-FD21 will work with all 2013/14 f150 models. If you have an aftermarket DSP it looks like this will be the best option. It will tap into the fixed analog signal from the ACM for the source. From there it will read the can-bus signals for volume and internally adjust it's output. This means you will have a stable "flat" signal and the use of all factory volume settings including independent sync/call/alert volumes. This is awesome, I've been waiting years for someone to finally come out with a proper solution. They said the units will be available everywhere in the next couple weeks.
> 
> Valow, if you like the Twk you should be able to keep it. You'll just use the PAC unit to get a stable signal with factory volume controls, then use the Twk to eq what you want. The fixed factory signal isn't too bad. I'll post the response I measured a few days ago.





Dustin said:


> Here's the factory fixed analog output from the ACM if anyone is interested.


So if I'm understanding you, the signal that the PAC will be sending to the DSP is basically that graph you posted? That's not very good then cause that's some serious roll off on the high end and way too much bass boost. The PAC website claims a "flat signal".


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## marcus1033

Well until we get a good working product, I'm thinking I could try to recalibrate my 363.3 to a lower volume, instead of Max undistorted. Try to figure out where I hear the roll off and set that as max volume. Probably could use REW to do this. Reset all my gains, which are currently bottomed out, so plenty to play with. Going to call that good enough till something pops up. 

I did try leaving stock radio at max undistorted, where 363.3 is calibrated flat, but using the 363.3 volume control seemed like you have small gradual increase in volume in 95% of turns, then bam, last couple clicks it's just hits you. The volume I liked was in between last few clicks, so kept making small adjustments to H/U volume. I may try verifying gains. Hmm, could also try setting up 95% of turns as max volume, that might work also. This method was very consistent sound wise, just didn't like lack of volume adjustability.


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## Dustin

MacLeod said:


> So if I'm understanding you, the signal that the PAC will be sending to the DSP is basically that graph you posted? That's not very good then cause that's some serious roll off on the high end and way too much bass boost. The PAC website claims a "flat signal".


Correct, that's the signal I tapped into before the sony amp, it's not quite as bad as it looks though. The high frequency rolloff doesn't seem to lose anything and there is a strong low frequency output. I don't know exactly what they mean by flat signal, not sure if the pac device does any restoration. I was able to use input eq on my helix to level the FR out a bit. Either way, it seems like the pac unit is exactly what we've all been waiting for. For those that don't have a dsp, the price on that rockford unit looks unbeatable.

I'm with dawaro though, strange that it took so long to finally come out with something like this. You never know with some companies and their ability to recognize a market though, hopefully that's what it was.


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## valow

MacLeod said:


> So if I'm understanding you, the signal that the PAC will be sending to the DSP is basically that graph you posted? That's not very good then cause that's some serious roll off on the high end and way too much bass boost. The PAC website claims a "flat signal".


Dustin responded...


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## valow

MacLeod said:


> The thing is with the factory HU, it changes the EQ with the volume. According to the measurements dawaro sent, there is crazy high bass boost at low volumes and crazy roll off of high frequencies in the higher volumes. The Fix and Twk calibrate on a certain volume and that means it'll have a certain EQ curve. If you use the factory volume control, it'll change the EQ curve dependent on the volume. This won't make your speakers blow up or anything but you're just kinda defeating the purpose of the Fix.
> 
> If you use the DRC-200, the Fix (or Twk) are actually increasing the volume and it's based on the calibrated and flat curve from the Fix.
> 
> After some more reading, I think I'm with you now and wanting that PAC piece. That thing is almost too good to be true! The optical output looks great too but then you're back to having to use the DSP's remote control for volume. I may just stick with the RCA outputs so I can keep the factory volume controls, not sure tho.
> 
> But yeah, that PAC is like a mini Fix that you can stuff behind your dash and not have to worry about taking up any room! I love it!
> 
> Only thing is I'm not sure what is it doing? Is it simply cutting into the factory speaker outputs from the radio and converting them to RCA outputs? If so, what makes it different than any other LOC? Or is it intercepting the signal before it gets to the factory DSP?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if I'm understanding you, the signal that the PAC will be sending to the DSP is basically that graph you posted? That's not very good then cause that's some serious roll off on the high end and way too much bass boost. The PAC website claims a "flat signal".


So from initial configuration - where did you set your head unit volume? I calibrated the FiX at 3/4 volume and the DRC is connected to the TwK. Do I need to move that to the FiX? I know this is a rookie question/mistake, but it honestly confuses me and I'm happy to adjust.

Edit: I know that max undistorted is about 2-3 clicks below max, so maybe I should recalibrate to there. I know that from the 3sixty I had prior.


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## MacLeod

valow said:


> So from initial configuration - where did you set your head unit volume? I calibrated the FiX at 3/4 volume and the DRC is connected to the TwK. Do I need to move that to the FiX? I know this is a rookie question/mistake, but it honestly confuses me and I'm happy to adjust.
> 
> Edit: I know that max undistorted is about 2-3 clicks below max, so maybe I should recalibrate to there. I know that from the 3sixty I had prior.


I don't have a Fix yet, I've just been gorging myself reading everything I can find on it the last few weeks. 

If you're running optical from the Fix to the Twk, you'll use the DRC from the Twk as it will control volume. If you connected them via RCA'S then you could use the Fix. An optical signal is totally passive and doesn't increase in voltage as you increase in volume so it can't control volume. Say you run optical from the new PAC unit to the Twk and turn the factory volume all the way up, the signal going to the Twk will stay the same so it won't change in volume. That's why you have to use the DRC-200. With RCA's, the signal thru them increases in voltage with volume and the Twk will sense that and change in volume along with it. Hope that makes sense, I'm terrible at explaining things. 

As for setting the Fix, JL says to calibrate it with the head unit at 3/4 volume so that's where I'd leave it.


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## valow

In that case, I think I'm set. I'm running FiX to TwK via optical, so no voltage increases. I'll also run PAC to TwK via TOSlink, or optical.

The only confusion is that the DRC and the headunit control the volume essentially the exact way. I don't notice any type of difference in using either one. I can try turning the headunit all the way down and the DRC and see if JUST using the DRC does anything different, but I doubt it.


----------



## MacLeod

valow said:


> In that case, I think I'm set. I'm running FiX to TwK via optical, so no voltage increases. I'll also run PAC to TwK via TOSlink, or optical.
> 
> The only confusion is that the DRC and the headunit control the volume essentially the exact way. I don't notice any type of difference in using either one. I can try turning the headunit all the way down and the DRC and see if JUST using the DRC does anything different, but I doubt it.


You're running optical from the Fix to the Twk and the factory volume control still works? I must be wrong then. Usually when you run optical to your processor then analog out to your amps, you'll need a remote volume from the DSP. My old H701 was that way unless you used the Ai-Net cable. Maybe there is a way to increase the volume via an optical input. 

Either way, if you're not hearing any difference between the factory volume and the DRC, then I'd ditch the DRC and use the factory only. It could very well be that the variable EQ the head unit is doing isn't that bad and/or it's changing it in a way that sounds good to you. Either way that's a win.


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## FordEscape

valow said:


> I thought you could have the stock headunit flashed to send a flat response? I swear there was a thread about that - let me look.





dawaro said:


> This was discussed earlier. There are people that claim it can be done but *actual measurements on one such unit did not match the claim. And that was a non-Sony unit.* I think it was discussed in post 83.


A bit late but I just realized 'my data' had entered into this discussion ...

That was my case/testing on the speaker-level output of a non-Sony '14 Escape "premium" head unit (car with 8" MyFordTouch screen, 9-speaker system). In the Escape that same HU is programmed for lower-level "pre-amp output" when configured with the Sony system - I do not know if that also alters the volume-variable EQ I measured at the speaker-level configuration. 

I've attached the complete series of annotated O-scope plot files at different HU volume settings here if you're interested, but again, not sure of the applicability to this F-150 Sony system project. These plots are after the HU had supposedly been "reprogrammed" to yield "flat output at all volume settings" while retaining speaker-level output (intended for use with an MS-8)***.

Also FYI I used a PicoScope 2204A, IMHO a remarkably capable and cost effective tool for measuring this sort of thing - http://www.tequipment.net/Pico/2204A-BASIC/PC-Based-Oscilloscopes/?v=7404

*** unrelated but I want to always be clear when this 'episode' comes up - the party that did the "reprogramming" did accept return of the reprogrammed HU and refunded all my cost - he couldn't explain the 'failure' and couldn't offer any other solution to achieve the desired 'flat' output, but made good on the deal.


----------



## MacLeod

FordEscape said:


> A bit late but I just realized 'my data' had entered into this discussion ...
> 
> That was my case/testing on the speaker-level output of a non-Sony '14 Escape "premium" head unit (car with 8" MyFordTouch screen, 9-speaker system). In the Escape that same HU is programmed for lower-level "pre-amp output" when configured with the Sony system - I do not know if that also alters the volume-variable EQ I measured at the speaker-level configuration.
> 
> I've attached the complete series of annotated O-scope plot files at different HU volume settings here if you're interested, but again, not sure of the applicability to this F-150 Sony system project. These plots are after the HU had supposedly been "reprogrammed" to yield "flat output at all volume settings" while retaining speaker-level output (intended for use with an MS-8)***.
> 
> Also FYI I used a PicoScope 2204A, IMHO a remarkably capable and cost effective tool for measuring this sort of thing - http://www.tequipment.net/Pico/2204A-BASIC/PC-Based-Oscilloscopes/?v=7404
> 
> *** unrelated but I want to always be clear when this 'episode' comes up - the party that did the "reprogramming" did accept return of the reprogrammed HU and refunded all my cost - he couldn't explain the 'failure' and couldn't offer any other solution to achieve the desired 'flat' output, but made good on the deal.


Thanks for the input. Now that I look at those a little closer, that's not too awful an EQ. At first I thought a 30 db "bass boost" was insane but after looking a little closer, it's not the bass that was boosted, its that it's attenuating everything else. It just drops the level from 100-20K 30 db at very low levels. 

The rolling off is only a half octave and above 15 KHz which you're not going to hear much of anyway. I would love to see some measurements of the outputs before they were "reprogrammed" but that does give some idea to the factory's variable EQ. Its not changing much that you're going to notice, just rolling off the super high end that you can't hear anyway and leaving the 20-100 Hz level up more when turning the volume down. 

That would explain why Valow hears no real difference when using the factory EQ with his Fix. The variable EQ really isn't hurting anything after the Fix "de-EQ's" everything.

Judging by all these measurements, I don't think you'd go wrong with either the PAC module or the Fix. I think both would give you the same thing. The PAC would be easier to install but the Fix would give you optical output for $50 less. I think the Fix might be better in the end though as that ACM measurement above isn't ideal. There are 16 db difference between 20 and 10K. With the Fix, you'd be sending the DSP a flat signal. If you're not using DSP though, the PAC would probably be ideal because that curve isn't that far off from what most people would dial in anyway (other than the bump in 300 Hz, that would normally be cut pretty good. 160-315 seems to always be way too hot in every car I've ever tuned).


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## valow

MacLeod said:


> You're running optical from the Fix to the Twk and the factory volume control still works? I must be wrong then. Usually when you run optical to your processor then analog out to your amps, you'll need a remote volume from the DSP. My old H701 was that way unless you used the Ai-Net cable. Maybe there is a way to increase the volume via an optical input.
> 
> Either way, if you're not hearing any difference between the factory volume and the DRC, then I'd ditch the DRC and use the factory only. It could very well be that the variable EQ the head unit is doing isn't that bad and/or it's changing it in a way that sounds good to you. Either way that's a win.


It also adds to the confusion - Rob chimed in very early to this thread and said the DRC would be needed for volume. So now I'm plenty confused. Maybe if work lightens up tomorrow I'll give JL a call for clarity.


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## Dustin

In the OP's case the factory volume control works because it is adjusting the high level signal going into the FiX, this alters the processed signal strength. That being said, the factory volume controls and the DRC volume control are not adjusting the signal in the same way. Adjusting the factory volume still alters the eq, the FiX cannot adjust for that, only the calibrated level is flat after the FiX. I find it very strange that the OP doesn't notice a difference. Using the DRC should produce a linear signal adjustment, factory volume should cause some deviation on that. Say for instance the calibration was done at a higher level, turning the factory volume down should increase the low end response. This may not be noticeable for some as this could possibly be desired. Some processors such as the bitone have dynamic eq for this reason. They can be set to increase the low end at lower volumes.

There is no other option I am aware of for a proper stable signal other than the options from PAC or rockford. My method works, but it doesn't give me everything nor does it give me any factory volume control. For everything to work properly you must have factory volume control. That's why the options are necessary. They will take the same flat low level signal I used and adjust it's level by reading the various factory volume levels. Without this you would say for instance be jamming out really loud, then your phone rings and you swerve off the road. With the pac unit it should read your factory adjusted volume for alerts/calls/etc... and adjust the volume. This is exactly what is so necessary about these units for full factory integration and maximum sound quality.


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## valow

Dustin said:


> In the OP's case the factory volume control works because it is adjusting the high level signal going into the FiX, this alters the processed signal strength. That being said, the factory volume controls and the DRC volume control are not adjusting the signal in the same way. Adjusting the factory volume still alters the eq, the FiX cannot adjust for that, only the calibrated level is flat after the FiX. I find it very strange that the OP doesn't notice a difference. Using the DRC should produce a linear signal adjustment, factory volume should cause some deviation on that. Say for instance the calibration was done at a higher level, turning the factory volume down should increase the low end response. This may not be noticeable for some as this could possibly be desired. Some processors such as the bitone have dynamic eq for this reason. They can be set to increase the low end at lower volumes.
> 
> There is no other option I am aware of for a proper stable signal other than the options from PAC or rockford. My method works, but it doesn't give me everything nor does it give me any factory volume control. For everything to work properly you must have factory volume control. That's why the options are necessary. They will take the same flat low level signal I used and adjust it's level by reading the various factory volume levels. Without this you would say for instance be jamming out really loud, then your phone rings and you swerve off the road. With the pac unit it should read your factory adjusted volume for alerts/calls/etc... and adjust the volume. This is exactly what is so necessary about these units for full factory integration and maximum sound quality.


On my way home, I'll turn the DRC down before starting, then turn the factory down and play with it. Maybe it's just something I haven't tinkered with enough. More to come.


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## valow

Well, I'm stumped. I think my main ***** right now is with my subs. They just aren't banging very hard. 2 300w RMS 10s, 2ohm load and the amp supports 1000x1 RMS at 2ohms. So I have the gain tuned to 33v using a multimeter (translates to sq root of 1200). This was done with a 0db 50Hz tone. I'm only using the tweet/doors from the front to the FiX, sub is not connected to anything.

I don't really hear any type of difference if using the knob or the factory controls. Maybe I'm deaf (joking). I think I'll give JL a call for some clarity. Either way, I still have a lot of hope for the PAC piece, since it should bypass all of the goofy EQing it will eliminate from the amp. The FiX should, in essence provide the same solution, but I need to verify the setup. There are WAY too many complications with these OEM systems, for sure.


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## dawaro

The difference is the FiX is trying to restore the already altered signal. The new pieces are designed to grab the signal before it is altered.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## valow

I talked to JL - he had some info based on the build time of the Ford with Sony. I'm about to go grab a 3.5mm to RCA and I'll use REW to see what's coming out of the FiX. Give me a few hours and I'll post some screens.


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## marcus1033

I'm with you on subs. I had to Boost those bands. Figured, I must not be an SQ guy, cause I wasn't hearing anything from subs. Midbass was fine. Definitely not happy with numbers from REW, set to JBL curve.


----------



## Dustin

valow said:


> Well, I'm stumped. I think my main ***** right now is with my subs. They just aren't banging very hard. 2 300w RMS 10s, 2ohm load and the amp supports 1000x1 RMS at 2ohms. So I have the gain tuned to 33v using a multimeter (translates to sq root of 1200). This was done with a 0db 50Hz tone. I'm only using the tweet/doors from the front to the FiX, sub is not connected to anything.
> 
> I don't really hear any type of difference if using the knob or the factory controls. Maybe I'm deaf (joking). I think I'll give JL a call for some clarity. Either way, I still have a lot of hope for the PAC piece, since it should bypass all of the goofy EQing it will eliminate from the amp. The FiX should, in essence provide the same solution, but I need to verify the setup. There are WAY too many complications with these OEM systems, for sure.


I've never used the fix but I went over the manual real quick. Sorry if you know all this, just things to check. Have you verified correct polarity on the high level inputs to the fix? I assume you set the head unit volume 3/4 before calibration?

EDIT: Wait a minute, you're using a 0db tone and you're trying to set the max output of your amp to 600w at this level. Most music never reaches 0db so you'll never hit 600w. I would suggest using a -10dB tone to allow proper headroom, at least a -6dB. I set my sub control to -6dB to give me some further adjustment as well. Try leaving the factory volume at the calibration level and full volume on the DRC when you set gains. If you have a bass knob I would set it in the middle when you set gains. Don't be overly afraid of setting gains by ear either, at least with subs. You should be able to easily hear bottoming out or clipping.


----------



## FordEscape

MacLeod said:


> .... I would love to see some measurements of the outputs before they were "reprogrammed" but that does give some idea to the factory's variable EQ.....


I ran the same test on my non-programmed OEM HU and they were for all intents identical - sorry, I didn't print those plots.

I'm running HU output into an MS-8 which has a 'de-EQ' algorithm as part of it's input processing. I can either use volume control on my HU (volume-variable EQ is 'in-play' but most convenient, steering wheel controls, etc) OR keep the HU at the calibration level and use the MS-8 master volume (the 'theoretical optimum', negates any HU volume-variable EQ factor, but less convenient). With that setup when listening to music I can't tell a difference except in A>B tests in a silent parked car on certain tracks. 

When listening to music (acoustic folk, acoustic/electric jazz, orchestral, acoustic/electric blues, hard rock) in normal driving _the effect of the volume-variable EQ into the MS-8 has no meaningful effect on the enjoyment of the output after the MS-8 at any listening level I care to use, from low to rock-out-loud._ The failed venture to defeat the HU variable-volume EQ was an attempt at 'ultimate theoretical system optimization' that I now accept as totally unnecessary for my real-world critical listening enjoyment with my system. 

>>>>

*@valow *(I think the thread is till mainly about your system setup efforts?) I've tried reading back through this thread but honestly I can't tell what the exact 'chain' of your system components is today, from OEM HU through speakers.

Whatever, IMHO you would benefit by concentrating on getting a good 'tune' at your 90th-percentile listening level *only*, whatever combination of HU and DSP(?) master volume settings is required to achieve that one volume level. 

If you can't achieve an acceptable 'tune' at that one listening level using all the EQ, gain, XO/slope, etc. adjustments that your system components allow then you're sunk .... any 'volume-variable EQ factor' is absolutely moot .... it has no bearing on anything and you need to revisit other components in your system chain to solve the problem.

Only after getting a good tune at the one 90th-percentile listening level, then you can start to play with adjusting volume. If you have components that allow adjusting 'master volume' without changing your known good HU volume setting (i.e. your HU calibration level) I'd start there first - prove to yourself that your system and tune is 'robust' (stays good) at various levels without introducing the HU variable-volume EQ factor. If it isn't, work on that again - your system problem is not related to the HU variable-volume EQ factor.

Then, and only then, start playing with using your HU volume controls to see if the tune 'falls apart' at different settings. If that causes problems then at least you _know_ the issue relates solely to the variable-volume EQ factor. Then you can focus on where in the spectrum that's a problem and maybe tweak your 'master EQ' in that area alone to find a compromise 'master curve' that minimizes the undesirable effect at different volume levels that you actually use.

Maybe that (or some similarly 'ordered') approach is what you're already using and maybe my long post was waste of your time - if so I sincerely apologize. 

I certainly don't mean to insult in any way whatsoever, I just have the impression that maybe you're juggling too many variables at once and that's hindering your ability to get to the end goal of a great sounding system.


----------



## MacLeod

So guess I was wrong. I emailed JL Audio about the volume using optical output and this was the answer:

"The optical out from the FiX-82 is variable, so you could use the OEM volume knob"

So apparently Valow isn't hearing a difference because there shouldn't be much of one other than the high and low end roll off as the volume increases. That kinda makes me want the Fix a lot more now. Optical output AND you get to keep your factory volume if you want. JL Also said I may need the LSA-4 adapter to supply a load to the head unit. I don't think that's true cause I've seen way way too many setups running LOC's off the stock deck with no problem. That should be the same thing. 

@FordEscape - if the measurements from before the reprogramming ate virtually the same that's good news because those curves you posted, I could easily live with. The volume control honestly isn't that big a deal for me. I'd love to be able to use the stock controls but it's not a deal breaker. I rarely use the steering wheel volume controls (although I do use the track + and - controls) but rather use the volume knob. I always rest my hand on the center console and there is a spot within inches of where my hand rests that I could install the DRC. I could always use the stock controls when driving around on my own and then set it back to the volume I calibrated at and use the DRC when doing critical listening or being judged at a show.

This thread has been a HUGE help! I've figured out more in 2 days here than in the previous 3 weeks Googling stuff. LOL! So I think I'm 90% sold on going with the Fix/Twk route. I've been playing with the TuN software and starting to like it. I still like Helix's better but I really like the idea of how the Fix cleans up the signal and the optical output all for $640. That's just too hard to beat.


----------



## valow

Just pulled a reading using the mic input from the FiX. Looks fine to me. Cannot for the life of me figure out why my subs are so weak.


----------



## MacLeod

Could be getting some cancelation somewhere. Experiment with phase, time alignment and even sub placement.


----------



## valow

That's exactly what JL said. If Phase is off on the Mids, it will cancel the bass out. However, unless the wiring diagram I got out of Ford was wrong, then they are matched since I"ve checked 17 times. I suppose I can swap them on the FiX as a test, recalibrate and see what happens.

Per JL, I Just connected the subs, recalibrated and tried it again. Definitely a fuller harder sound from the subs so I'm perplexed.

Edit: Both wiring diagrams I referenced match - so I'm beyond confused.


----------



## MacLeod

valow said:


> That's exactly what JL said. If Phase is off on the Mids, it will cancel the bass out. However, unless the wiring diagram I got out of Ford was wrong, then they are matched since I"ve checked 17 times. I suppose I can swap them on the FiX as a test, recalibrate and see what happens.
> 
> Per JL, I Just connected the subs, recalibrated and tried it again. Definitely a fuller harder sound from the subs so I'm perplexed.
> 
> Edit: Both wiring diagrams I referenced match - so I'm beyond confused.


They can be wired in phase but be out of phase acoustically. Try swapping the sub in and out of phase and see what that does. Also try different aiming of the sub.


----------



## valow

Dustin said:


> I've never used the fix but I went over the manual real quick. Sorry if you know all this, just things to check. Have you verified correct polarity on the high level inputs to the fix? I assume you set the head unit volume 3/4 before calibration?
> 
> EDIT: Wait a minute, you're using a 0db tone and you're trying to set the max output of your amp to 600w at this level. Most music never reaches 0db so you'll never hit 600w. I would suggest using a -10dB tone to allow proper headroom, at least a -6dB. I set my sub control to -6dB to give me some further adjustment as well. Try leaving the factory volume at the calibration level and full volume on the DRC when you set gains. If you have a bass knob I would set it in the middle when you set gains. Don't be overly afraid of setting gains by ear either, at least with subs. You should be able to easily hear bottoming out or clipping.


Very, very valid point. I listen to Hip Hop a lot, and some rock. I have 40 Hz -db tones (-5, -10 and -15) and I have the JL FiX disc, which is just 50 Hz @ 0db. I can try that tomorrow and see what happens. I'm not sure I'm going to see much of a large difference tuning with 50 -db or 40 -db.


----------



## valow

FordEscape said:


> I ran the same test on my non-programmed OEM HU and they were for all intents identical - sorry, I didn't print those plots.
> 
> I'm running HU output into an MS-8 which has a 'de-EQ' algorithm as part of it's input processing. I can either use volume control on my HU (volume-variable EQ is 'in-play' but most convenient, steering wheel controls, etc) OR keep the HU at the calibration level and use the MS-8 master volume (the 'theoretical optimum', negates any HU volume-variable EQ factor, but less convenient). With that setup when listening to music I can't tell a difference except in A>B tests in a silent parked car on certain tracks.
> 
> When listening to music (acoustic folk, acoustic/electric jazz, orchestral, acoustic/electric blues, hard rock) in normal driving _the effect of the volume-variable EQ into the MS-8 has no meaningful effect on the enjoyment of the output after the MS-8 at any listening level I care to use, from low to rock-out-loud._ The failed venture to defeat the HU variable-volume EQ was an attempt at 'ultimate theoretical system optimization' that I now accept as totally unnecessary for my real-world critical listening enjoyment with my system.
> 
> >>>>
> 
> *@valow *(I think the thread is till mainly about your system setup efforts?) I've tried reading back through this thread but honestly I can't tell what the exact 'chain' of your system components is today, from OEM HU through speakers.
> 
> Whatever, IMHO you would benefit by concentrating on getting a good 'tune' at your 90th-percentile listening level *only*, whatever combination of HU and DSP(?) master volume settings is required to achieve that one volume level.
> 
> If you can't achieve an acceptable 'tune' at that one listening level using all the EQ, gain, XO/slope, etc. adjustments that your system components allow then you're sunk .... any 'volume-variable EQ factor' is absolutely moot .... it has no bearing on anything and you need to revisit other components in your system chain to solve the problem.
> 
> Only after getting a good tune at the one 90th-percentile listening level, then you can start to play with adjusting volume. If you have components that allow adjusting 'master volume' without changing your known good HU volume setting (i.e. your HU calibration level) I'd start there first - prove to yourself that your system and tune is 'robust' (stays good) at various levels without introducing the HU variable-volume EQ factor. If it isn't, work on that again - your system problem is not related to the HU variable-volume EQ factor.
> 
> Then, and only then, start playing with using your HU volume controls to see if the tune 'falls apart' at different settings. If that causes problems then at least you _know_ the issue relates solely to the variable-volume EQ factor. Then you can focus on where in the spectrum that's a problem and maybe tweak your 'master EQ' in that area alone to find a compromise 'master curve' that minimizes the undesirable effect at different volume levels that you actually use.
> 
> Maybe that (or some similarly 'ordered') approach is what you're already using and maybe my long post was waste of your time - if so I sincerely apologize.
> 
> I certainly don't mean to insult in any way whatsoever, I just have the impression that maybe you're juggling too many variables at once and that's hindering your ability to get to the end goal of a great sounding system.


Please, do not apologize. As you can tell from the length of this post, quite a few people are dealing with these systems and they aren't fun. My reason for posting this was two fold. Get some answers, and hopefully provide them since information for us non industry folks is scarce.

I'll sit down and put together details tomorrow as far as what is where, and how it's cabled up. Stand by.


----------



## FordEscape

Just to be clear, I'm not in the (audio) industry.

I'm a retired engineer with a career spent honing 'universal problem solving methodology' that seems to work well for a host of diverse technical applications. Funny how things learned doing design/build/shakedown of complex chemical process plants helps me in my hobbies of building cars, motorcycles and car audio.

Looking forward to the 'system layout' info, I've caught the bug of interest here and am enjoying the following/learning.

Thanks!


----------



## Locomotive Tech

In my case I only have one sub out from the factory H/U so I had to wire the FiX's sub input in parallel. Was never disappointed in the sub output from the start. I did notice that factory eqing really decreased the sub output above 50%. Also noticed that 75% factory volume was a little too high and was a little distorted when I calibrated. Turned down to 65 % and that was the sweet spot. 

Also, the first fire up I had some serious mid output issues. Found that I stripped a wire too short and when I inserted it into the FiX connector, it was not contacting the wire.


----------



## valow

FordEscape said:


> Just to be clear, I'm not in the (audio) industry.
> 
> I'm a retired engineer with a career spent honing 'universal problem solving methodology' that seems to work well for a host of diverse technical applications. Funny how things learned doing design/build/shakedown of complex chemical process plants helps me in my hobbies of building cars, motorcycles and car audio.
> 
> Looking forward to the 'system layout' info, I've caught the bug of interest here and am enjoying the following/learning.
> 
> Thanks!


Perk of my job, I have Visio. Here you go!

Edit: One thing I didn't add were the crossovers set on the amps - or the pass filters. I can grab that if you want it.

I know for sure the Sub amp is set to 100Hz, and the xover on the TwK is 100 as well. Everything else (Rockfords) should be set to high pass, but I'd have to verify what Hz they are set to. I haven't pulled the cosmetic covers off in a bit.


----------



## FordEscape

valow said:


> .....Edit: One thing I didn't add were the crossovers set on the amps - or the pass filters. I can grab that if you want it.
> 
> I know for sure the Sub amp is set to 100Hz, and the xover on the TwK is 100 as well. Everything else (Rockfords) should be set to high pass, but I'd have to verify what Hz they are set to. I haven't pulled the cosmetic covers off in a bit.


Cool, thanks for that diagram, helps me a lot in my vicarious following of what you're up to.

I do have a question about your mention of XO/filters .... and this comes from my (perhaps incorrect) understanding that having XO/filter 'overlap' or 'redundancy' between two different filtering circuits on a given channel spectrum in a chain can be problematic or introduce undesirable audio effects (i.e. LP 'stacked' on LP affecting the same signal spectrum OR (not "and") HP 'stacked' on HP affecting the same signal spectrum).

It would seem to me that the TwK with TuN provides your most complete and comprehensive XO/filter control for each discrete output channel. Why would you not then set the two Rockford amps to "AP" ("All Pass") - the setting that completely defeats all XO/filters on those units, ensuring those don't in any way alter the signal 'tuned' on the TwK?

While the Kenwood doesn't seem to offer a filter "defeat", setting the LP on that to it's maximum 200Hz would IMHO move any signal-altering effect of that unit as far as possible out of range of the signal spectrum for the subs that you set on the TwK - effectively making that amp also a 'clean pass-through' (to the extent possible) for the signal from the TwK.

You've got a great little DSP it seems, I'd use that for it's full intended purpose and use my amps only for amplification - keeping them out of the loop of further signal manipulation as much as possible.

Maybe that's what you've done in your configuration .... if not, maybe for your consideration. Who knows, that _might_ help with the mysterious sub-problem you've mentioned.


----------



## MacLeod

FordEscape said:


> I do have a question about your mention of XO/filters .... and this comes from my (perhaps incorrect) understanding that having XO/filter 'overlap' or 'redundancy' between two different filtering circuits on a given channel spectrum in a chain can be problematic or introduce undesirable audio effects (i.e. LP 'stacked' on LP affecting the same signal spectrum OR (not "and") HP 'stacked' on HP affecting the same signal spectrum).
> 
> It would seem to me that the TwK with TuN provides your most complete and comprehensive XO/filter control for each discrete output channel. Why would you not then set the two Rockford amps to "AP" ("All Pass") - the setting that completely defeats all XO/filters on those units, ensuring those don't in any way alter the signal 'tuned' on the TwK?
> 
> You've got a great little DSP it seems, I'd use that for it's full intended purpose and use my amps only for amplification - keeping them out of the loop of further signal manipulation as much as possible.


Agree with this. Don't use the amp AND the Tun crossovers together like that. It's not going to blow anything up but it can mess with the sound a bit. If you can't defeat the low pass filter then just turn it up crazy high like 500 or however high it goes. That way any filtering the amp will be doing will be well out of the range of what is audible.

Another thing, 100 Hz is WAY too high to cut off a sub. You want more like 63 and 80 at the most. You want your midbass up front to be doing most of the work from 80 and up.

**edit**

So that Pac-Audio AP4-FD21 says that it released on the 27th. I checked online retailers and they still don't show it. I'm thinking I've changed my mind and I may go with this thing. I really want the H800 simply because I can't imagine how big a PITA it would be to try and tune while holding a laptop!

I emailed them about how the unit handles the EQ changing with the volume. Also wanted to clear up that it's compatible with non-Sony systems. The literature kinda reads like it's for Sony systems only but I could be reading it wrong.


----------



## FordEscape

MacLeod said:


> So that Pac-Audio AP4-FD21 says that it released on the 27th. .... I emailed them about how the unit handles the EQ changing with the volume. Also wanted to clear up that it's compatible with non-Sony systems. The literature kinda reads like it's for Sony systems only but I could be reading it wrong.


I'll be very interested to know what you learn re: non-Sony applications. Foremost it would seem is the significant voltage difference between the Sony and non-Sony HU audio output - it'd be fantastic if the PAC unit can handle either/or. Then IMHO it's down to the commonality of the CANBUS commands.

Does your vehicle have the ~8.4" LCD, ~4.2" LCD, or...?

FWIW my OEM LCD connector has *54*-pins, *not 52* as mentioned in the AP4-FD21 instructions, so I wonder if that's a typo or a true application difference. I know my system is the same as the '15 Focus, maybe something changed for the PAC listed '16 Focus (SYNC 3 was introduced).

On mine the LCD connector and the 24-pin "radio" connector pin assignments are the same for all display sizes, and for both Sony and non-Sony systems - just not all pins are used for all displays/system options.

Hoping with cautious optimism ...... and hoping the OP is OK with the non-Sony discussion mixed-in here


----------



## Lexingtonian

This has been a great discussion with lots of information so far. The PAC unit is so encouraging to see.. I'm going to wait until the Rockford unit materializes (I think). I like the idea of killing two birds with one stone. Less stuff to manage. I'm also highly attracted to the rumored Bluetooth configuration of the Rockford DSR1 unit as, the whole, "plug your laptop in" configuration of all the DSP's today seems so, 2003 to me. Staying subscribed, thanks for all the hard work here.


----------



## Dustin

It says the pac unit was designed for vehicles with the premium sound system. Looks like this unit requires a flat factory signal to tap into, then uses canbus messages to adjust volume. Essentially it replaces the sony amp and adds preouts. Vehicles without an amp, I'm guessing, won't have a low level signal to tap into, at least not unless you open it up and tap into the board, but that has already been talked about. Oh, forgot who asked, but the optical out on the pac unit will be 2 channel variable. I'm really curious how they routed everything on the RCA outputs, if they were able to keep calls/alerts out of the rear and sub channels, aside from the backup sensors anyway.

You're right about the RF unit though, it seems to be a top choice for someone without a DSP

I just preordered the pac unit from abt electronics over the phone. They have 2 left for preorder now. Going to start a build thread I never got around to. I'll show the pac install there.


----------



## MacLeod

Dustin said:


> It says the pac unit was designed for vehicles with the premium sound system. Looks like this unit requires a flat factory signal to tap into, then uses canbus messages to adjust volume. Essentially it replaces the sony amp and adds preouts. Vehicles without an amp, I'm guessing, won't have a low level signal to tap into, at least not unless you open it up and tap into the board, but that has already been talked about. Oh, forgot who asked, but the optical out on the pac unit will be 2 channel variable. I'm really curious how they routed everything on the RCA outputs, if they were able to keep calls/alerts out of the rear and sub channels, aside from the backup sensors anyway.
> 
> You're right about the RF unit though, it seems to be a top choice for someone without a DSP
> 
> I just preordered the pac unit from abt electronics over the phone. They have 2 left for preorder now. Going to start a build thread I never got around to. I'll show the pac install there.


That's what I was afraid of. The thing that made me unsure is it says "if you can't find the Sony label, look for a center speaker or sub". I've got a center but no sub or amp. Guess I'm back to the Fix unless Pac emails me back and tells me something else.


----------



## dawaro

I would check with PAC but I would think that you could use this interface if you dont have the Sony system.

Pac-Audio.com Product Details | iPod Integration for your car and More by Pac-Audio - Connecting you to the future


----------



## MacLeod

dawaro said:


> I would check with PAC but I would think that you could use this interface if you dont have the Sony system.
> 
> Pac-Audio.com Product Details | iPod Integration for your car and More by Pac-Audio - Connecting you to the future


I sent them an email yesterday, haven't heard anything back yet. If it is tapping into low level outputs on their way to the Sony amp like Dustin said then it probably won't work cause the outputs coming out of non-Sony HU wouldn't have those.


----------



## dawaro

MacLeod said:


> I sent them an email yesterday, haven't heard anything back yet. If it is tapping into low level outputs on their way to the Sony amp like Dustin said then it probably won't work cause the outputs coming out of non-Sony HU wouldn't have those.


 That interface isnt designed for the Sony systems.

The issue isnt tapping into the low levels. That is easy and can be done like mentioned earlier in this thread.

The issue is intercepting the CAN-bus signals so that you retain functions like volume control, track control, etc.

I will try to look at the non-Sony system wiring diagram tonight and see what all is tied together. Without the Sony amp complicating things I dont see why you wouldnt be able to use any DSP that performs summing and de-eq functions like the FiX.


----------



## MacLeod

dawaro said:


> That interface isnt designed for the Sony systems.
> 
> The issue isnt tapping into the low levels. That is easy and can be done like mentioned earlier in this thread.
> 
> The issue is intercepting the CAN-bus signals so that you retain functions like volume control, track control, etc.
> 
> I will try to look at the non-Sony system wiring diagram tonight and see what all is tied together. Without the Sony amp complicating things I dont see why you wouldnt be able to use any DSP that performs summing and de-eq functions like the FiX.


The Fix/Twk route is most likely how I'm going. The PAC looked good cause if it let you keep your volume controls without the variable EQ, it would be perfect. Plus it's $50 cheaper than the Fix and one less thing to install. I want to use as little space as possible cause I still use my truck for hauling stuff. 

Really tempted to go with the DSP2 tho because their software UI is about perfect where the Tun's is not even close. I can almost work the Helix software blindfolded. That dammed variable EQ is what's killing me tho. 

Does anybody know if you can use a remote volume with the Helix? Speaker level inputs then the remote volume for control? With the DSP raising the volume I wouldn't get that wicked roll off from the stock volume control.


----------



## FordEscape

MacLeod said:


> ...Really tempted to go with the DSP2 tho because their software UI is about perfect where the Tun's is not even close. I can almost work the Helix software blindfolded. That dammed variable EQ is what's killing me tho.
> 
> Does anybody know if you can use a remote volume with the Helix? Speaker level inputs then the remote volume for control? With the DSP raising the volume I wouldn't get that wicked roll off from the stock volume control.


Yes.

See URC 2A and look under the "Specifications" tab to see the functions offered for each Helix DSP model.

This offers master DSP volume remote for most Helix units including DSP.2 which accepts high-level inputs as do many Helix models. 

Leave your HU at calibration level and use the remote to adjust master volume = no HU volume variable EQ factor.


----------



## MacLeod

FordEscape said:


> Yes.
> 
> See URC 2A and look under the "Specifications" tab to see the functions offered for each Helix DSP model.
> 
> This offers master DSP volume remote for most Helix units including DSP.2 which accepts high-level inputs as do many Helix models.
> 
> Leave your HU at calibration level and use the remote to adjust master volume = no HU volume variable EQ factor.


I saw that and the Director which is a looked like a great remote second only to the Alpine's but nearly twice the price! They both do master volume but I don't know if they only work if you're using an optical input. If you were using RCA's or high level inputs, you wouldn't need one and I was wondering if that feature is only available with an optical signal. 

That's the best thing about the Twk. The Fix82/TwkD8 combo would be $60 less than a DSP and it comes with a remote volume. The cheapest Helix remote is an extra $60 and the Director is a staggering $350!!!! 

Also, Crutchfield only has the DSP which is a discontinued model and not even supported with their newest software version. 

Dammit! I hate decisions. The Twk is all I'd ever need, I just really, REALLY hate their UI. I'm sitting here playing with it now trying to see if I could live with it. But man that Helix software, it's just perfect, intuitive and easy to learn and use! At least I've narrowed it down this far. Went out and bought a small laptop tonight so at least I've scratched the H800 off the list. LOL! 3 weeks ago I had about 5 different choices. :laugh:

Oh and wanted to add that I take back all the trash talking about trying to tune with a laptop. I bought a Lenovo Yoga 11" touchscreen laptop and it fits perfectly in my lap with the screen resting against the steering wheel. Everything is right there. This is the only way to tune! No more endless clicking of the same 2 buttons trying to get to certain menus. 15" or larger screen might be a pain but a small lappy with a touch screen is just the bomb. I'm a convert! And yes, I'm proud to say I was sitting in my truck playing with the Helix software on my laptop despite not having it hooked up to anything. I'm that big a nerd!


----------



## FordEscape

MacLeod said:


> I saw that and the Director which is a looked like a great remote second only to the Alpine's but nearly twice the price! They both do master volume but I don't know if they only work if you're using an optical input. If you were using RCA's or high level inputs, you wouldn't need one and I was wondering if that feature is only available with an optical signal.


All this is covered in the _documentation_ available at Helix site Audiotec Fischer GmbH | Innovative Car Audio .

Control 1 on URC-2A, when configured as "Master Volume", controls the volume of _"all outputs at the same time. This makes sense if none of the sources have an own volume control."_ Nothing in that implies that the actual source-type used has any bearing on the output Master Volume function.

There's other volume-related options depending on the DSP model features, all documented in detail, some which explicitly operate _only_ on the optical input.

If you use the laptop (with that wonderful software) you don't need the expensive "Director" with it's much less user-friendly cascade of screens forced by the small display size.

I'm sure you could find procurement help via the contact page at Audiotec Fischer USA or through PM to DIYMA member BlackHHR. But I suspect you probably already know all that.

>>>>>

Decision paralysis is usually solved with a simple (to construct) evaluation matrix - get it out of your head and down on paper. Functions, features, wants on the vertical axis; individual DSPs on the horizontal.

Search documentation or contact vendors for solid factual data to fill it in. If a vendor isn't willing/able to timely give definitive answers about your feature/function questions, then the Question Marks in those boxes of the matrix usually make the non-preference obvious. Add lines if new things of importance are 'discovered' during research.

You can add weighting/prioritizing to the vertical axis at the end if the answer isn't already obvious on an un-weighted basis. I usually suggest on holding-off on that, figuring out weighting before seeing the matrix infill can itself cause another phase of decision paralysis/delay.

IMHO


----------



## MacLeod

FordEscape said:


> All this is covered in the _documentation_ available at Helix site Audiotec Fischer GmbH | Innovative Car Audio .


Yeah, sorry. I checked the instruction manual for the DSP's and the Director (isn't one for the URC) and found no mention of that. Didn't know what the hell "Sound Tuner Magazine" was but it didn't sound like an instruction manual so I didn't pay any attention. I'll be more thorough next time. 



> I'm sure you could find procurement help through PM to DIYA member BlackHHR. But I suspect you probably already know all that.


Yep. Already fired off a PM to him asking just that.



> Decision paralysis is usually solved with a simple (to construct) evaluation matrix - get it out of your head and down on paper. Functions, features, wants on the vertical axis; individual DSPs on the horizontal.
> 
> Search documentation or contact vendors for solid factual data to fill it in. If a vendor isn't willing/able to timely give definitive answers about your feature/function questions, then the Question Marks in those boxes of the matrix usually make the non-preference obvious. Add lines if new things of importance are 'discovered' during research.
> 
> You can add weighting/prioritizing to the vertical axis at the end if the answer isn't already obvious on an un-weighted basis. I usually suggest on holding-off on that, figuring out weighting before seeing the matrix infill can itself cause another phase of decision paralysis/delay.
> 
> IMHO


You should see me trying to pick out a pair of sunglasses. The clerk is ready to close and I'm still trying to pick between 2 pairs. I have issues.


----------



## FordEscape

MacLeod said:


> You should see me trying to pick out a pair of sunglasses. The clerk is ready to close and I'm still trying to pick between 2 pairs. I have issues.


LOL, car audio must be agony :laugh:

Enjoy the project, looking forward to continued updates and eventual great success!




no worries on the Helix documents thing - there was a brief moment in time when I considered leaving the MS-8 autotune world so I'd prowled every corner of the Helix website looking at all the possibilities of their wonderful toys - IMHO still the best option for _ultimate_ user-tweakable DSPs


----------



## MacLeod

dawaro said:


> I would check with PAC but I would think that you could use this interface if you dont have the Sony system.
> 
> Pac-Audio.com Product Details | iPod Integration for your car and More by Pac-Audio - Connecting you to the future


Just got the email back from PAC:

"the AP4-FD21 will only work in the vehicle with the data bus controlled premium systems. If you don't have the Sony system you probably don't have that. This would mean its not compatible."

So looks like it's no-go for the non-Sony guys.


----------



## valow

MacLeod said:


> Just got the email back from PAC:
> 
> "the AP4-FD21 will only work in the vehicle with the data bus controlled premium systems. If you don't have the Sony system you probably don't have that. This would mean its not compatible."
> 
> So looks like it's no-go for the non-Sony guys.


Well, that sucks man sorry. Thanks for the update.

I fully intend to purchase and install one - I'll be sure to take and build post pics and progress.


----------



## dawaro

MacLeod said:


> Just got the email back from PAC:
> 
> "the AP4-FD21 will only work in the vehicle with the data bus controlled premium systems. If you don't have the Sony system you probably don't have that. This would mean its not compatible."
> 
> So looks like it's no-go for the non-Sony guys.


The one that I linked to is the AOEM-FRD24, not the AP4. It is designed for use with non-Sony systems.

"Product Description 

OEM-1 with a vehicle specific harness plugs into the vehicle's wiring and offers a 4 channel RCA audio output for adding aftermarket amplification. Provides full range audio output 20-20,000Hz. Audio output level is controlled by the volume of the factory radio.

Product Features 

Plug in installation retains factory wiring integrity
Linear 20-20,000Hz sound reproduction based on input signal
4 channel RCA output
Amplifier turn-on trigger wire
Transformer isolated for optimal sound and performance"


----------



## MacLeod

dawaro said:


> The one that I linked to is the AOEM-FRD24, not the AP4. It is designed for use with non-Sony systems.
> 
> "Product Description
> 
> OEM-1 with a vehicle specific harness plugs into the vehicle's wiring and offers a 4 channel RCA audio output for adding aftermarket amplification. Provides full range audio output 20-20,000Hz. Audio output level is controlled by the volume of the factory radio.
> 
> Product Features
> 
> Plug in installation retains factory wiring integrity
> Linear 20-20,000Hz sound reproduction based on input signal
> 4 channel RCA output
> Amplifier turn-on trigger wire
> Transformer isolated for optimal sound and performance"


How in the hell did I miss that? All the digging and reading I did. 

I went ahead and ordered a Parrot wiring harness. It plugs in between the stock plugs and gives a fused power wire and no cutting of any wires. It splits the 4 speaker wires so you can just run them back to the processor. I'd rather run speaker wires to a Fix and let it convert to low level as opposed to the PAC unit so even tho its $50 vs $300, I think you'd get better results with a Fix.


----------



## dawaro

MacLeod said:


> How in the hell did I miss that? All the digging and reading I did.
> 
> I went ahead and ordered a Parrot wiring harness. It plugs in between the stock plugs and gives a fused power wire and no cutting of any wires. It splits the 4 speaker wires so you can just run them back to the processor. I'd rather run speaker wires to a Fix and let it convert to low level as opposed to the PAC unit so even tho its $50 vs $300, I think you'd get better results with a Fix.


That could depend on if the PAC unit does anything to defeat the factory volume dependent EQ.

There is also the option of playing around with programming the ACM with Forscan. There appears to be several different EQ options available but there isn't a lot of documentation on what the different values do.

Once my company gets pass year end closing and things settle down where I am not working 12-16hr days I plan to play with the different EQ options and take measurements to see what the difference is between them.

With the latest version of Forscan you can change a lot of different settings. In fact I used it this weekend to remove the Sirius inputs from my unit since I don't use the service.


----------



## MacLeod

dawaro said:


> That could depend on if the PAC unit does anything to defeat the factory volume dependent EQ.


Looking at it my guess is it doesn't. It looks like it's basically a passive LOC connected to a wiring harness that fits between the stock connections. For $50 I can't imagine it being anymore than that....but I'm wrong a lot so who knows.


----------



## Lexingtonian

dawaro said:


> That could depend on if the PAC unit does anything to defeat the factory volume dependent EQ.
> 
> There is also the option of playing around with programming the ACM with Forscan. There appears to be several different EQ options available but there isn't a lot of documentation on what the different values do.
> 
> Once my company gets pass year end closing and things settle down where I am not working 12-16hr days I plan to play with the different EQ options and take measurements to see what the difference is between them.
> 
> With the latest version of Forscan you can change a lot of different settings. In fact I used it this weekend to remove the Sirius inputs from my unit since I don't use the service.


I've done the Sirius removal also. Wished it removed it from the quick menu in the instrument cluster also. In fact, I wish I could put BT Audio and USB at the top so I didn't have to scroll through AM and FM every time I want to play BT Audio.. but hey.. If wishes were horses...

On the factory EQ I have the exact same curiosity.. Just ordered a UMIK-1 from Cross Spectrum and will be going to work with REW probably over the weekend (if it arrives) to figure out how the EQ works. I certainly want to turn that stupid thing off. As a factory system goes, it isn't too bad, but they way they seem to be handling the sub by boosting it when volume is low and reducing as volume is increased is quite annoying.. Wonder what else we'll find. I run my Sony Premium system with Surround mode on. Curious to see what the surround vs stereo readings are.


----------



## dawaro

Lexingtonian said:


> I've done the Sirius removal also. Wished it removed it from the quick menu in the instrument cluster also. In fact, I wish I could put BT Audio and USB at the top so I didn't have to scroll through AM and FM every time I want to play BT Audio.. but hey.. If wishes were horses...
> 
> On the factory EQ I have the exact same curiosity.. Just ordered a UMIK-1 from Cross Spectrum and will be going to work with REW probably over the weekend (if it arrives) to figure out how the EQ works. I certainly want to turn that stupid thing off. As a factory system goes, it isn't too bad, but they way they seem to be handling the sub by boosting it when volume is low and reducing as volume is increased is quite annoying.. Wonder what else we'll find. I run my Sony Premium system with Surround mode on. Curious to see what the surround vs stereo readings are.


What year is your truck? Mine is a 2014 and I was able to remove the Sirius inputs completely. They no longer appear on the menu.


----------



## Lexingtonian

dawaro said:


> What year is your truck? Mine is a 2014 and I was able to remove the Sirius inputs completely. They no longer appear on the menu.



2016. The ForScan change did remove it from Sync2 8" display but not the menu accessible on the instrument cluster from the steering wheel.


----------



## MacLeod

Lexingtonian said:


> I've done the Sirius removal also. Wished it removed it from the quick menu in the instrument cluster also. In fact, I wish I could put BT Audio and USB at the top so I didn't have to scroll through AM and FM every time I want to play BT Audio.. but hey.. If wishes were horses...
> 
> On the factory EQ I have the exact same curiosity.. Just ordered a UMIK-1 from Cross Spectrum and will be going to work with REW probably over the weekend (if it arrives) to figure out how the EQ works. I certainly want to turn that stupid thing off. As a factory system goes, it isn't too bad, but they way they seem to be handling the sub by boosting it when volume is low and reducing as volume is increased is quite annoying.. Wonder what else we'll find. I run my Sony Premium system with Surround mode on. Curious to see what the surround vs stereo readings are.


They're technically not boosting the low end. I thought that too until I looked at the graphs a little more. They're actually leaving the 20-100 range at 0 dB while cutting everything above that at low volume. Then when you raise the volume, the bass stays the same while everything else raises. When you're at the higher end of the volume, the low end is now even with the midrange and the 15K range is significantly rolled off. 

This really isn't that bad of an EQ. For daily driving listening, I doubt most people would notice. Since it's not actually boosting anything but rather rolling certain ranges off, it wouldn't damage or clip anything in your signal chain. Still not ideal but it's not near as bad as I thought at first.


----------



## Lexingtonian

MacLeod said:


> They're technically not boosting the low end. I thought that too until I looked at the graphs a little more. They're actually leaving the 20-100 range at 0 dB while cutting everything above that at low volume. Then when you raise the volume, the bass stays the same while everything else raises. When you're at the higher end of the volume, the low end is now even with the midrange and the 15K range is significantly rolled off.
> 
> This really isn't that bad of an EQ. For daily driving listening, I doubt most people would notice. Since it's not actually boosting anything but rather rolling certain ranges off, it wouldn't damage or clip anything in your signal chain. Still not ideal but it's not near as bad as I thought at first.


Nice synopsis. Thanks for sharing, makes perfect sense and at least they aren't boosting, they're cutting. Next question is, how much and for what volume range. Apparently the signal coming from the amplifier starts clipping very close to the 50% mark, thus I have no interest in summing that signal. According to another source, the line-out from the HU never clips all the way up. If we can just get some control of that EQ, the audio chain should actually be in pretty good shape. Very curious to know how the PAC unit will handle that EQ.


----------



## MacLeod

Lexingtonian said:


> Nice synopsis. Thanks for sharing, makes perfect sense and at least they aren't boosting, they're cutting. Next question is, how much and for what volume range. Apparently the signal coming from the amplifier starts clipping very close to the 50% mark, thus I have no interest in summing that signal. According to another source, the line-out from the HU never clips all the way up. If we can just get some control of that EQ, the audio chain should actually be in pretty good shape. Very curious to know how the PAC unit will handle that EQ.


There are measurements in this thread that show measurements at different volume. I'm posting on my phone and it's a pain to go back search and link but I think it's 2 pages back. These were also from a non-Sony system.

The PAC might be a way around the EQ because as I understand it, it's the Sony amp that handles DSP in the Sony systems and the PAC unit taps into the signal before the amp.


----------



## FordEscape

MacLeod said:


> There are measurements in this thread that show measurements at different volume. I'm posting on my phone and it's a pain to go back search and link but I think it's 2 pages back. These were also from a non-Sony system.....


That would be this post.

(still following the discussion  )


----------



## MacLeod

FordEscape said:


> That would be this post.
> 
> (still following the discussion  )


Yes, that is the one. Thanks! That's probably the most valuable post in this thread. At least for me. 

Got my Fix 82 and Twk 88 today. Wanted the D8 but the shop didn't have one and the 88 was only $20 more so I figured what the hell. Now I've got analog inputs should I ever need them. Just waiting on my shiny new Morel Hybrids to arrive then I can start slapping all this stuff in. It should be quick and painless amirite?


----------



## James Cole

Hello Guys

Programming the ACM for line level out seems to be the simplest cleanest solution, the variable equalization to me is not a big deal, but I read the whole thread and couldnt find anybody that did the ACM mod and then installed all the aftermarket audio equipment later completely removing the sony crap.

If someone did this how was the SQ? Noise Floor? Any problems at all?

If you go with any of the OEM integration units it will add complexity and noise to the system so interested in the full results with ACM mod and aftermarket audio system installed.

Thanks!
JC


----------



## Lexingtonian

There are several folks that have, the one with the most detail was the FordEscape gent above. That's where he tested the line out and found the factory EQ'ing. Personally I'm temped by the PAC unit. From a simplicity stand point either that or the Rockford vapor DSR-1. The PAC unit should allow full Sony Amp delete as well.


----------



## James Cole

Lexingtonian said:


> There are several folks that have, the one with the most detail was the FordEscape gent above. That's where he tested the line out and found the factory EQ'ing. Personally I'm temped by the PAC unit. From a simplicity stand point either that or the Rockford vapor DSR-1. The PAC unit should allow full Sony Amp delete as well.


The ford escape guy only tested the output I believe...

Is there a review anywhere of full system install since I am about to do this in a 17 F150 with sony...?

I did a install a few years ago on a Focus Sony and let me tell you the result is CRAP

it was an Illusion Audio / JL HD setup...


----------



## Lexingtonian

James Cole said:


> The ford escape guy only tested the output I believe...
> 
> Is there a review anywhere of full system install since I am about to do this in a 17 F150 with sony...?
> 
> I did a install a few years ago on a Focus Sony and let me tell you the result is CRAP
> 
> it was an Illusion Audio / JL HD setup...


Crap means many things to many different people and as I'm sure you're aware, expensive speakers will not on their own make chicken salad out of chicken crap. That said, the Ford/Sony system is poor suited for a high impedance DSP summing device due to egregious clipping above the 3/4 volume mark on the amplifier side. The only way to get a truly clean signal is from a Sony Amp delete and taking signal at line level. I appears the Sony Line Level output is quite solid and capable of doing an SQ system.

Video on the topic here: *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfcU71c2SWY

The best way to attack this vehicle would be to Sony Amp Delete, get Sony Line Level and bring it straight into a DSP like a Helix and to Time Alignment. I personally really like the JBL MS8 DSP also for center staging. I'd do the PAC device as it's the best option for our vehicles right now -

What you like of course is entirely up to you -


----------



## James Cole

Lexingtonian said:


> Crap means many things to many different people and as I'm sure you're aware, expensive speakers will not on their own make chicken salad out of chicken crap. That said, the Ford/Sony system is poor suited for a high impedance DSP summing device due to egregious clipping above the 3/4 volume mark on the amplifier side. The only way to get a truly clean signal is from a Sony Amp delete and taking signal at line level. I appears the Sony Line Level output is quite solid and capable of doing an SQ system.
> 
> Video on the topic here: *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfcU71c2SWY
> 
> The best way to attack this vehicle would be to Sony Amp Delete, get Sony Line Level and bring it straight into a DSP like a Helix and to Time Alignment. I personally really like the JBL MS8 DSP also for center staging. I'd do the PAC device as it's the best option for our vehicles right now -
> 
> What you like of course is entirely up to you -


Thanks Lex

I assume you mean ACM reprogramming for the line level output?

Also why do you recommend the PAC device vs ACM mod? less devices in the chain the better...

My plan is ACM low level -> Bit One -> Amps -> Speakers


----------



## dawaro

James Cole said:


> Hello Guys
> 
> Programming the ACM for line level out seems to be the simplest cleanest solution, the variable equalization to me is not a big deal, but I read the whole thread and couldnt find anybody that did the ACM mod and then installed all the aftermarket audio equipment later completely removing the sony crap.
> 
> If someone did this how was the SQ? Noise Floor? Any problems at all?
> 
> If you go with any of the OEM integration units it will add complexity and noise to the system so interested in the full results with ACM mod and aftermarket audio system installed.
> 
> Thanks!
> JC


Unfortunately it isnt quite that easy with the Sony systems. Take a look at one of the schematics and you will see that even if the ACM is reprogrammed there are still a lot of wiring changes that need to be made to maintain chimes, NAV voice and phone calls.


----------



## dawaro

Lexingtonian said:


> I appears the Sony Line Level output is quite solid and capable of doing an SQ system.


Funny part is the actual head unit is actually made by Clarion, or at least that is what the label on mine says.


----------



## Lexingtonian

dawaro said:


> Unfortunately it isnt quite that easy with the Sony systems. Take a look at one of the schematics and you will see that even if the ACM is reprogrammed there are still a lot of wiring changes that need to be made to maintain chimes, NAV voice and phone calls.


Exactly, that's why the PAC unit is so attractive. Nice clean solution with all the signals correctly routed and supposedly de-eq'd. Is I've gotten older I like clean and simple. - but hey that's just me..


----------



## Lexingtonian

dawaro said:


> Funny part is the actual head unit is actually made by Clarion, or at least that is what the label on mine says.


Great info! Thx!


----------



## Lexingtonian

James Cole said:


> Thanks Lex
> 
> I assume you mean ACM reprogramming for the line level output?
> 
> Also why do you recommend the PAC device vs ACM mod? less devices in the chain the better...
> 
> My plan is ACM low level -> Bit One -> Amps -> Speakers


See my post to just above to Dawaro. I think it'll work either way, but as Dawaro said, you'll also have to route the alerts and chimes. Not quite as simple as an ACM mod and a clever solder job but still doable..


----------



## FordEscape

Ok, lemme see if I can 'monkey wrench this .... 

In the '14 Escape the only _wiring_ differences between the non-Sony vs Sony with DSP(amp) are:
+ ACM output > speakers vs ACM output > DSP > speakers
+ APIM SYNC out > ACM vs APIM SYNC out > DSP (two wires)
^those are not 'extensive' wiring differences, IMHO.

The ACM and APIM are obviously programmed differently for each configuration (the APIM being the module that routes and configures the SYNC features for the appropriate receiving module). In the Escape/Focus it's pretty well accepted that the 'premium' ACM (HU) can be programmed for either non-Sony or Sony configuration (i.e. they are the same components).

The folks at the Ford F150 Forum have done extensive module reprogramming investigation, including public post of a very comprehensive spreadsheet of module parameters/effects. (the 'Sirius delete' APIM reprogram for F150 worked on my Escape - thank you!)

Has anyone seriously studied the possibility of reprogramming the ACM and APIM, with re-route of the APIM SYNC outputs, for the purpose of 'rolling back' a Sony system to non-Sony configuration?

If you can't figure out the APIM reprogramming, Escape folks have proven they can swap a salvage NAV APIM to a non-NAV car; as long as all the other features are the same (confirm by VIN search vehicle comparison using ETIS) it's plug-and-play and they get working NAV. Perhaps the same with an F150 Sony APIM to non-Sony APIM swap (all other features being equal)? 

IF that could be accomplished, the booger-boo of 'voices/warning tones/chimes' would be solved - all those would be routed to the ACM analog outputs and thence into whatever aftermarket DSP/AMP you install. That's what I have with my OEM non-Sony system and _everything including all the SYNC features_ (voices/warning tones/chimes/Bluetooth phone/audio NAV cues, etc) work perfectly fed into my MS-8 (no echo, no unacceptable delay effects, etc).

Just a thought - a totally different approach to the 'Sony' problem - don't try to 'patch' it ...... just ditch it entirely at the OEM-level.
_____
It helps a LOT to study the full Motorcraft wiring diagrams for this stuff. If you don't want to buy the full interactive CD ROM from Helm, Inc you can get a 72-hour subscription to the same thing HERE for $21.95USD. Make sure you have a 'print to PDF' utility already installed as a printer on your PC and you can use the print command in the online software to print any page to PDF for future reference (that's unrestricted in the subscription). Trust me, you can save a ****load of wiring diagrams and workshop manual system info in 72 hours. It's really easy to get all the wiring, connector face-diagrams, connector pin assignments, component and harness connector locations in the chassis, etc, etc with the extensively hyperlinked interactive wiring diagram software.


----------



## dawaro

Lexingtonian said:


> See my post to just above to Dawaro. I think it'll work either way, but as Dawaro said, you'll also have to route the alerts and chimes. Not quite as simple as an ACM mod and a clever solder job but still doable..


There are lots of options available in Forscan that can be modified. I just haven't had the time to explore them. Maybe later this spring I can explore it more while waiting on the RF peice to come out.

Again if it were as easy as changing a couple of values in the different modules some company would have offered it years ago.


----------



## Lexingtonian

FordEscape said:


> Ok, lemme see if I can 'monkey wrench this ....
> 
> In the '14 Escape the only _wiring_ differences between the non-Sony vs Sony with DSP(amp) are:
> + ACM output > speakers vs ACM output > DSP > speakers
> + APIM SYNC out > ACM vs APIM SYNC out > DSP (two wires)
> ^those are not 'extensive' wiring differences, IMHO.
> 
> The ACM and APIM are obviously programmed differently for each configuration (the APIM being the module that routes and configures the SYNC features for the appropriate receiving module). In the Escape/Focus it's pretty well accepted that the 'premium' ACM (HU) can be programmed for either non-Sony or Sony configuration (i.e. they are the same components).
> 
> The folks at the Ford F150 Forum have done extensive module reprogramming investigation, including public post of a very comprehensive spreadsheet of module parameters/effects. (the 'Sirius delete' APIM reprogram for F150 worked on my Escape - thank you!)
> 
> Has anyone seriously studied the possibility of reprogramming the ACM and APIM, with re-route of the APIM SYNC outputs, for the purpose of 'rolling back' a Sony system to non-Sony configuration?
> 
> If you can't figure out the APIM reprogramming, Escape folks have proven they can swap a salvage NAV APIM to a non-NAV car; as long as all the other features are the same (confirm by VIN search vehicle comparison using ETIS) it's plug-and-play and they get working NAV. Perhaps the same with an F150 Sony APIM to non-Sony APIM swap (all other features being equal)?
> 
> IF that could be accomplished, the booger-boo of 'voices/warning tones/chimes' would be solved - all those would be routed to the ACM analog outputs and thence into whatever aftermarket DSP/AMP you install. That's what I have with my OEM non-Sony system and _everything including all the SYNC features_ (voices/warning tones/chimes/Bluetooth phone/audio NAV cues, etc) work perfectly fed into my MS-8 (no echo, no unacceptable delay effects, etc).
> 
> Just a thought - a totally different approach to the 'Sony' problem - don't try to 'patch' it ...... just ditch it entirely at the OEM-level.
> _____
> It helps a LOT to study the full Motorcraft wiring diagrams for this stuff. If you don't want to buy the full interactive CD ROM from Helm, Inc you can get a 72-hour subscription to the same thing HERE for $21.95USD. Make sure you have a 'print to PDF' utility already installed as a printer on your PC and you can use the print command in the online software to print any page to PDF for future reference (that's unrestricted in the subscription). Trust me, you can save a ****load of wiring diagrams and workshop manual system info in 72 hours. It's really easy to get all the wiring, connector face-diagrams, connector pin assignments, component and harness connector locations in the chassis, etc, etc with the extensively hyperlinked interactive wiring diagram software.


Nice Monkey Wrench and of course an informative read.

For reference this thread show how to route alerts and chimes for an amp delete. Hope this adds a little light.. still ain't purty tho.

Variable Line Level Preamp Outputs From ACM (Factory Radio) For Amplifer Upgrades

That's why I'm looking forward to the PAC unit. Solves several problems and quite neatly. I picked up a JBL MS-8 on EBay over the weekend. Looking forward to taking a stab at it. Need to order the PAC this week.

My thread with links on what I'm thinking..

Audio System Build - 2016 Explorer Sport | Ford Explorer and Ford Ranger Forums - Serious Explorations


----------



## James Cole

dawaro said:


> Unfortunately it isnt quite that easy with the Sony systems. Take a look at one of the schematics and you will see that even if the ACM is reprogrammed there are still a lot of wiring changes that need to be made to maintain chimes, NAV voice and phone calls.


I saw the 2Gfusion thread and it does not seem so complicated, or is there something else involved?

If you get the low level output I bet you will get better sound quality than ANY aftermarket oem integration unit... I say the extra work is worth it and to me it looks extremely easy compared to installing new speakers, amps and wiring.


----------



## FordEscape

Lexingtonian said:


> ....That's why I'm looking forward to the PAC unit. Solves several problems and quite neatly. I picked up a JBL MS-8 on EBay over the weekend. ....


Just FWIW relating to the very minor detail of remote turn-on for the MS-8 and downstream power amps ...

I use the basic PAC TR-4 Low Voltage Trigger Module, activated by tap to an audio input on my MS-8. The TR4 "rem-out" goes to the MS-8 "rem-in" and all the downstream amps are triggered from the MS-8 "rem-out" per MS-8 guidance. I've triggered up to 5 MS-Axxxx amps with the MS-8 "rem-out" with no relays or 'boosters'.

The approach has several benefits for me -

My system is totally without any turn-on/turn-off pops/thumps.
The sysem becomes active anytime the OEM audio system is active, key-on or key-off. This provides exact OEM behavior for chimes and warnings that occur with key off (the OEM audio system activates when a door is opened and stays active until a cascade of logic-controlled delays have expired).
The added DSP and amps are shut-down when the OEM "battery saver" sensor operates ... the OEM audio is among the (few) things that shut-down when that happens, unlike all other 'hot when key-on' circuits I have found in the Escape. Helpful when I carelessly get carried away listening to music after engine-off (the key-off audio time delay is over-ridden by the battery saver). As you know the battery saver monitors battery condition at the negative Batt ground, so it's 'cognizant' of my added audio amp load effect on the starting battery.
When I park and completely turn-off the vehicle out of habit, the system stays active for a long delay-time (absent low-battery condition) same as the OEM entertainment (lets you sit and 'finish the song' if you want); just like OEM the audio shuts down when any door is opened after key off.
Super simple turn-on wiring; there's no connection to OEM power circuits at all, all the required connections are at the MS-8 including the always hot 12V from my direct-to-battery distro fuse-block installed near the DSP/Amps under my cargo floor.
Perhaps if you find an OEM trigger originally dedicated for the Sony DSP/amp it will offer all the same benefits - I don't think any other 12V key-on circuit will. It'll be interesting to hear how the PAC AP4-FD21 measures-up.


----------



## Lexingtonian

*Re: 2017 F150 Sony system delete?*



FordEscape said:


> Just FWIW relating to the very minor detail of remote turn-on for the MS-8 and downstream power amps ...
> 
> I use the basic PAC TR-4 Low Voltage Trigger Module, activated by tap to an audio input on my MS-8. The TR4 "rem-out" goes to the MS-8 "rem-in" and all the downstream amps are triggered from the MS-8 "rem-out" per MS-8 guidance. I've triggered up to 5 MS-Axxxx amps with the MS-8 "rem-out" with no relays or 'boosters'.
> 
> The approach has several benefits for me -
> 
> My system is totally without any turn-on/turn-off pops/thumps.
> The sysem becomes active anytime the OEM audio system is active, key-on or key-off. This provides exact OEM behavior for chimes and warnings that occur with key off (the OEM audio system activates when a door is opened and stays active until a cascade of logic-controlled delays have expired).
> The added DSP and amps are shut-down when the OEM "battery saver" sensor operates ... the OEM audio is among the (few) things that shut-down when that happens, unlike all other 'hot when key-on' circuits I have found in the Escape. Helpful when I carelessly get carried away listening to music after engine-off (the key-off audio time delay is over-ridden by the battery saver). As you know the battery saver monitors battery condition at the negative Batt ground, so it's 'cognizant' of my added audio amp load effect on the starting battery.
> When I park and completely turn-off the vehicle out of habit, the system stays active for a long delay-time (absent low-battery condition) same as the OEM entertainment (lets you sit and 'finish the song' if you want); just like OEM the audio shuts down when any door is opened after key off.
> Super simple turn-on wiring; there's no connection to OEM power circuits at all, all the required connections are at the MS-8 including the always hot 12V from my direct-to-battery distro fuse-block installed near the DSP/Amps under my cargo floor.
> Perhaps if you find an OEM trigger originally dedicated for the Sony DSP/amp it will offer all the same benefits - I don't think any other 12V key-on circuit will. It'll be interesting to hear how the PAC AP4-FD21 measures-up.


Thanks again so much for the summary! I show pin 2 on the ACM as the Antenna PWR. Whats the down side of tapping into that for MS8 turn-on versus your solution (which is quite elegant btw)? Pinouts 2016 Ford - http://www.filehosting.org/file/details/638999/2016 Ford Explorer Sony Radio.pdf

Turn on - is certainly something I haven't researched yet but certainly don't want Amp Pops but do want all vehicle functionality -

The PAC AP4-FD21 does however provide a turn-on wire so ideally, that's what I'll use if I can secure one -
PAC AP4-FD21 Manual for reference - http://www.pac-audio.com/downloads/ap4-fd21_instructions_012617.pdf


----------



## dawaro

FordEscape said:


> Just FWIW relating to the very minor detail of remote turn-on for the MS-8 and downstream power amps ...
> 
> I use the basic PAC TR-4 Low Voltage Trigger Module, activated by tap to an audio input on my MS-8. The TR4 "rem-out" goes to the MS-8 "rem-in" and all the downstream amps are triggered from the MS-8 "rem-out" per MS-8 guidance. I've triggered up to 5 MS-Axxxx amps with the MS-8 "rem-out" with no relays or 'boosters'.


I just used the factory "audio amplifier enable" wire from the ACM. It is a 5v source so I used it to trigger a 12v relay that is used for the equipment. I didn't have any turn-on pops and it retained the delayed power as the added equipment is turned on just like the Sony amp would be.


----------



## dawaro

FordEscape said:


> Ok, lemme see if I can 'monkey wrench this ....
> 
> In the '14 Escape the only _wiring_ differences between the non-Sony vs Sony with DSP(amp) are:
> + ACM output > speakers vs ACM output > DSP > speakers
> + APIM SYNC out > ACM vs APIM SYNC out > DSP (two wires)
> ^those are not 'extensive' wiring differences, IMHO.


I took a quick look at the schematics I have for the Sony/non-Sony and it appears that the F150 has the same differences for the Sync wiring.

The schematic that I haven't been able to find is the one for the non-Sony system with the center channel and NAV to figure out what module it is tied into.

I may have to get the subscription and download the files as you mentioned.


----------



## FordEscape

Lexingtonian said:


> ...I show pin 2 on the ACM as the Antenna PWR. Whats the down side of tapping into that for MS8 turn-on versus your solution ... ?


Don't know, never tested it.


dawaro said:


> I just used the factory "audio amplifier enable" wire from the ACM. It is a 5v source so I used it to trigger a 12v relay that is used for the equipment. I didn't have any turn-on pops and it retained the delayed power as the added equipment is turned on just like the Sony amp would be.


Then that sounds perfect! My non-Sony lacked that wire in the harness-side of the ACM connector. I've never tested to see if that pin is functional on the ACM-side.


dawaro said:


> I took a quick look at the schematics I have for the Sony/non-Sony and it appears that the F150 has the same differences for the Sync wiring.
> 
> The schematic that I haven't been able to find is the one for the non-Sony system with the center channel and NAV to figure out what module it is tied into....


Mine is the non-Sony w/center ("9-speaker" system), SYNC2 (8" MFT). The GPS module is tied to the MS CAN network, as is the APIM; there's no 'direct' link between the two; all other NAV functions are already in the APIM.

FYI mine did not have OEM NAV from the factory. I 'enabled' NAV and now enjoy full OEM NAV functionality including turn-by-turn in my IPC display via the 'hack' published on the XDA Developers forum 

My center speaker ACM out is abandoned - I don't feed that to the MS-8, the MS-8 creates it's own much more sophisticated center. With the Sony there's of course no center ACM>DSP, it, too, creates the center in the DSP.


----------



## valow

Just for those interested, ABT Electronics has the AP4-FD21 and the APA-TOS1 available as of today. I just ordered mine. The TOS piece doesn't show up on their site, but I spoke to someone over the phone and he tracked it down and placed the order for me. Excited is an understatement.


----------



## Lexingtonian

dawaro said:


> I just used the factory "audio amplifier enable" wire from the ACM. It is a 5v source so I used it to trigger a 12v relay that is used for the equipment. I didn't have any turn-on pops and it retained the delayed power as the added equipment is turned on just like the Sony amp would be.


Makes sense.. I hate it that the OP's post became the "Fighting the Ford Audio System" post. But lots of great and concise info here..


----------



## Lexingtonian

valow said:


> Just for those interested, ABT Electronics has the AP4-FD21 and the APA-TOS1 available as of today. I just ordered mine. The TOS piece doesn't show up on their site, but I spoke to someone over the phone and he tracked it down and placed the order for me. Excited is an understatement.


Excellent! Trying to source one also as I type this. On hold with SonicElectonix. If they dont have it I'll be heading right over to ABT! UPDATE... Well Sonic never called me back. I was in their "call you back, dont lose your place in line" queue for about an hour when their system said I only had about 5 mins to wait from the start. ABT on the other hand shows the AP4-FD21in stock now and a $25 off first purchase coupon (if over $250). So yeah, ORDERED!

Cant wait.. I guess I'm gonna haveta take a hard look at this thing to see where it'd make sense to mount everything. Not many hiding places in my Explorer.


----------



## Dustin

valow said:


> Just for those interested, ABT Electronics has the AP4-FD21 and the APA-TOS1 available as of today. I just ordered mine. The TOS piece doesn't show up on their site, but I spoke to someone over the phone and he tracked it down and placed the order for me. Excited is an understatement.


Just came on here to post the same thing. Mine will be shipping today, they only have 1 or 2 left. If someone wants one they better jump on it.

EDIT: Also, I just talked to PAC tech support for clarification on some concerns I had. They said the unit will divide the signal outputs for the RCAs. Such as the calls through the front output, backup sensors through the rear outputs, etc... Just like the sony amp. So you shouldn't have any calls or alerts from the sub output which is great. Unfortunately the optical out won't be able to do this, which means there could be problems with excess noise from the subs during calls. I'll do some tests and a writeup when I receive mine to verify what they said.


----------



## valow

Lexingtonian said:


> Makes sense.. I hate it that the OP's post became the "Fighting the Ford Audio System" post. But lots of great and concise info here..


I hear you, but at the same time I'm glad it did. Honestly, after 3 hours of googling I think everyone that has contributed in this thread has provided TONS of useful data, input and insight. Thanks again to everyone involved!


----------



## valow

Dustin said:


> Just came on here to post the same thing. Mine will be shipping today, they only have 1 or 2 left. If someone wants one they better jump on it.
> 
> EDIT: Also, I just talked to PAC tech support for clarification on some concerns I had. They said the unit will divide the signal outputs for the RCAs. Such as the calls through the front output, backup sensors through the rear outputs, etc... Just like the sony amp. So you shouldn't have any calls or alerts from the sub output which is great. Unfortunately the optical out won't be able to do this, which means there could be problems with excess noise from the subs during calls. I'll do some tests and a writeup when I receive mine to verify what they said.


Lucky for me, I've never been a fan of hands free so I keep some mic'd ear buds in my truck for calls. That shouldn't be an issue, at least for me. And I'm going optical baby - no voltage fluctuations. I also just watched a video on how to remove the head unit so I"m pretty prepared ahead of time. ha!


----------



## Lexingtonian

Dustin said:


> Just came on here to post the same thing. Mine will be shipping today, they only have 1 or 2 left. If someone wants one they better jump on it.
> 
> EDIT: Also, I just talked to PAC tech support for clarification on some concerns I had. *They said the unit will divide the signal outputs for the RCAs. Such as the calls through the front output, backup sensors through the rear outputs, etc... *Just like the sony amp. So you shouldn't have any calls or alerts from the sub output which is great. Unfortunately the optical out won't be able to do this, which means there could be problems with excess noise from the subs during calls. I'll do some tests and a writeup when I receive mine to verify what they said.


Ouch.. I sure hope theres a way to defeat that and combine the Phone and Alert into two channels. The MS8 Processor only has 2 RCA inputs. may have to get real ghetto with a y-adaper to combine them. (yuck yuck yuck). Gonna have to do some digging, hopefully one of those fancy dip switches will do some of that magic..


----------



## valow

Lexingtonian said:


> fancy dip switches


I just laughed at that. Welcome to 2017.


----------



## Lexingtonian

valow said:


> I just laughed at that. Welcome to 2017.


Yeah, a little levity..


----------



## FordEscape

Lexingtonian said:


> .... *The MS8 Processor only has 2 RCA inputs*. ...


*Incorrect*, Grasshopper. Your MS8 has 8 RCA line-level source inputs (as well as 8 speaker-level source inputs). You can use RCA OR speaker level input for any of the 8 available input channels.

Given the news above, IMHO your best solution is feeding both F&R from the PAC module output to inputs 1 through 4 on your MS8. That'll give you full-spectrum audio AND all chimes/alarms. The MS8 will take care of you from there, trust me 

Just don't feed the PAC "non-fading" output to MS8.

The MS8 rule of thumb is use the fewest inputs necessary to get all the audio signals you need to reproduce - but don't hesitate to use more than 2 if that's what you need. Especially given the correcting already done by the PAC, the only difference between F&R should be the additional chimes - that will impose insignificant 'additional processing burden' on the MS8 and will work much better than using a 'wye' to merge external to the MS8 - IMHO it'll do a better job with the discrete inputs so it can cleanly apply its input-correcting algorithms using it's input-channel-comparison process during setup.

Sorry - we don't need to add MS8 specific issues to this thread, that _will _be too much thread abuse - I'll stop there.


----------



## Lexingtonian

FordEscape said:


> *Incorrect*, Grasshopper. Your MS8 has 8 RCA line-level source inputs (as well as 8 speaker-level source inputs).
> 
> Given the news above, IMHO your best solution is feeding both F&R from the PAC module output to inputs 1 through 4 on your MS8. That'll give you full-spectrum audio AND all chimes/alarms. The MS8 will take care of you from there, trust me
> 
> The MS8 rule of thumb is use the fewest inputs necessary to get all the audio signals you need to reproduce - but don't hesitate to use more than 2 if that's what you need. Especially given the correcting already done by the PAC, the only difference between F&R should be the additional chimes - that will impose insignificant 'additional processing burden' on the MS8 and will work much better than using a 'wye' to merge external to the MS8 - IMHO it'll do a better job with the discrete inputs so it can cleanly apply it's input-correcting algorithms.


OOOOH Yes! You're right! For some reason I just saw the 2 lonely aux inputs in my head and was thinking since the MS8 only needs a left and right, that was all that was offered on the unit. Whelp, that works out great for me. 

On another note, I just got off the phone with PAC. They were nice about the question but apparently their engineering staff is out all week at a conference. So what about the guy that just wants a front stage and a sub? They will lose that rear channel chime and thus I kinda pushed for them to drive that question up the chain. 

We'll see what happens and thanks to you, I'm back to normal blood pressure. :laugh:


----------



## valow

FordEscape said:


> *Incorrect*, Grasshopper. Your MS8 has 8 RCA line-level source inputs (as well as 8 speaker-level source inputs). You can use RCA OR speaker level input for any of the 8 available input channels.
> 
> Given the news above, IMHO your best solution is feeding both F&R from the PAC module output to inputs 1 through 4 on your MS8. That'll give you full-spectrum audio AND all chimes/alarms. The MS8 will take care of you from there, trust me
> 
> Just don't feed the PAC "non-fading" output to MS8.
> 
> The MS8 rule of thumb is use the fewest inputs necessary to get all the audio signals you need to reproduce - but don't hesitate to use more than 2 if that's what you need. Especially given the correcting already done by the PAC, the only difference between F&R should be the additional chimes - that will impose insignificant 'additional processing burden' on the MS8 and will work much better than using a 'wye' to merge external to the MS8 - IMHO it'll do a better job with the discrete inputs so it can cleanly apply its input-correcting algorithms using it's input-channel-comparison process during setup.
> 
> Sorry - we don't need to add MS8 specific issues to this thread, that _will _be too much thread abuse - I'll stop there.


Good info - the non fading channels were 5 & 6 if I recall correctly...


----------



## FordEscape

Lexingtonian said:


> ... So what about the guy that just wants a front stage and a sub? They will lose that rear channel chime and thus I kinda pushed for them to drive that question up the chain ....


Keep this simple, folks, it really is.

If you are using any sort of full-function DSP after the PAC module, the basic rules still apply - feed your DSP all the inputs you need to get all the audio signals you want out in the end (chimes included if so desired). Just don't try 'bypassing' your DSP with any HU (or PAC module) output - bypassing the processing delay inherent in all DSPs will mess with your TA big-time.

Your DSP (JBL, Helix, whatever) will then manage all the audio input it receives, blending and distributing to whatever output channels/stages you configure in the DSP. Sure, chimes that were in the rear may now come out the front depending on what you provide in your DSP configuration (who cares?? - you'll 'get the message'). Remember, to the DSP the warning chime or phone voice is just another 'music note' to be redirected and reproduced somewhere, it has no notion that this is anything different. The frequency (Hz) of those 'notes' is such that they won't end up on your subwoofer.

If not using a DSP _then_ you may need to resort to the 'wye' to blend the PAC F&R out for sub (unlikely - just feed the front to your sub amp) or chime purposes (use the wye to blend-em if your amp won't do 4>2 blending) - just the same as you would with a 4-channel pre-amp HU's outputs. KISS

The PAC module has done the heavy-lifting of converting CAN warning tone commands to analog audio output - take advantage of it!


----------



## Unsecured_WiFi

Just wanted to chime in that I also ordered the pac interface for my 2016 focus st3 with Sony sound. Not sure when i will get it installed but I will chime in when i get it installed.


----------



## MacLeod

FordEscape said:


> Keep this simple, folks, it really is.
> 
> If you are using any sort of full-function DSP after the PAC module, the basic rules still apply - feed your DSP all the inputs you need to get all the audio signals you want out in the end (chimes included if so desired). Just don't try 'bypassing' your DSP with any HU (or PAC module) output - bypassing the processing delay inherent in all DSPs will mess with your TA big-time.
> 
> Your DSP (JBL, Helix, whatever) will then manage all the audio input it receives, blending and distributing to whatever output channels/stages you configure in the DSP. Sure, chimes that were in the rear may now come out the front depending on what you provide in your DSP configuration (who cares?? - you'll 'get the message'). Remember, to the DSP the warning chime or phone voice is just another 'music note' to be redirected and reproduced somewhere, it has no notion that this is anything different. The frequency (Hz) of those 'notes' is such that they won't end up on your subwoofer.
> 
> If not using a DSP _then_ you may need to resort to the 'wye' to blend the PAC F&R out for sub (unlikely - just feed the front to your sub amp) or chime purposes (use the wye to blend-em if your amp won't do 4>2 blending) - just the same as you would with a 4-channel pre-amp HU's outputs. KISS
> 
> The PAC module has done the heavy-lifting of converting CAN warning tone commands to analog audio output - take advantage of it!


This is kinda what I was thinking would work. I was originally just going to run the front speaker wires to the Fix as JL recommends using the fewest inputs possible and I'm not going to run rear speakers but then I thought about the chimes that only come through the rear speakers. I figured if I ran both front and rear speaker wires to the Fix then it would sum the chimes in with the output signal and they'd just come thru the front speakers which is just fine. 

Now that I've got everything ready to go, I'm hoping I can get everything put in and playing this weekend.


----------



## Lexingtonian

MacLeod said:


> This is kinda what I was thinking would work. I was originally just going to run the front speaker wires to the Fix as JL recommends using the fewest inputs possible and I'm not going to run rear speakers but then I thought about the chimes that only come through the rear speakers. I figured if I ran both front and rear speaker wires to the Fix then it would sum the chimes in with the output signal and they'd just come thru the front speakers which is just fine.
> 
> Now that I've got everything ready to go, I'm hoping I can get everything put in and playing this weekend.


It is my understanding that, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, the Front Speakers from the Sony Premium system have a high pass filter on the front mid driver. Apparently the rears are full range. (again as I recall from something I read)

Summing both would be best for sure. Also keep in mind the factory amp will clip at roughly 75% volume. Adjust your system to take advantage of the speaker level inputs below 75%.


----------



## FordEscape

Lexingtonian said:


> It is my understanding that, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, the Front Speakers from the Sony Premium system have a high pass filter on the front mid driver. Apparently the rears are full range. (again as I recall from something I read)
> 
> Summing both would be best for sure. Also keep in mind the factory amp will clip at roughly 75% volume. Adjust your system to take advantage of the speaker level inputs below 75%.


I think if you check those reports carefully you'll find all of the filtering and clipping you describe are effects measured at the Sony DSP/amp outputs, not at the ACM/HU outputs. By using the PAC module and eliminating your Sony DSP/amp completely, those concerns should be moot. 

Remember, the HU outputs are F & R only; the Sony amp outputs are split to F mid and F high for the separate mid/tweeter drivers (active XO/filter in the Sony DSP, which you will be eliminating). IMHO you'll find that the ACM/HU outputs are full-range both F & R and the PAC module won't alter that.

It'll be interesting if/when someone is able to put a scope on the PAC module to actually measure and document the characteristics of its outputs (EQ, voltage range and click-tests to verify that there's no TA imposed out of the HU). Were it me, I'd be scoping the ACM outputs before and after the PAC module, hoping to find that the PAC does nothing to alter the HU audio characteristics at all - I'd _hope_ it only takes care of the CAN issues without messing with the audio signal quality. 

Almost (_but not quite_) wish I had the Sony system so I could do that :laugh:

EDIT - just realized that @MacLeod may not be using the PAC module but using the Sony amp speaker level outputs to feed his added DSP; ooops, different situation IF that's the case .... then I wonder if any of the 'non-music' voices and tones on the Sony amp Front outputs may 'cross' the front mid/tweeter spectrum? If so, he may need to feed F high and F mid and Rear all to his DSP to reproduce everything in his new system.


----------



## valow

FordEscape said:


> I think if you check those reports carefully you'll find all of the filtering and clipping you describe are effects measured at the Sony DSP/amp outputs, not at the ACM/HU outputs. By using the PAC module and eliminating your Sony DSP/amp completely, those concerns should be moot.
> 
> Remember, the HU outputs are F & R only; the Sony amp outputs are split to F mid and F high for the separate mid/tweeter drivers (active XO/filter in the Sony DSP, which you will be eliminating). IMHO you'll find that the ACM/HU outputs are full-range both F & R and the PAC module won't alter that.
> 
> It'll be interesting if/when someone is able to put a scope on the PAC module to actually measure and document the characteristics of its outputs (EQ, voltage range and click-tests to verify that there's no TA imposed out of the HU). Were it me, I'd be scoping the ACM outputs before and after the PAC module, hoping to find that the PAC does nothing to alter the HU audio characteristics at all - I'd _hope_ it only takes care of the CAN issues without messing with the audio signal quality.
> 
> Almost (_but not quite_) wish I had the Sony system so I could do that :laugh:
> 
> EDIT - just realized that @MacLeod may not be using the PAC module but using the Sony amp speaker level outputs to feed his added DSP; ooops, different situation IF that's the case .... then I wonder if any of the 'non-music' voices and tones on the Sony amp Front outputs may 'cross' the front mid/tweeter spectrum? If so, he may need to feed F high and F mid and Rear all to his DSP to reproduce everything in his new system.


The best I can do, and intend to do is run pink noise through the system, connect RCAs from the PAC output to a 3.5" adapter and plug that in to my laptops mic input. Then I'll fire up REW and see what's coming out of it. I'm happy to post those pictures. According to UPS, it should be here Thursday and I intend to install on Saturday. Now I just need to order up this cabling. Anyone used this speaker wire before? Pretty cheap...https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=13730&seq=1&format=2


----------



## FordEscape

valow said:


> ... Anyone used this speaker wire before? Pretty cheap...https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=13730&seq=1&format=2


On a tip from DIYMA'er fourthmeal I bought the 4-strand x 16ga "Access" series cable from Monoprice when I did my first MS8 install; I was so happy with that stuff that I bought another 100ft when I needed more (added drivers to the system). Not sure how it compares to the "Nimbus" series you linked but the "Access" is super-flexible for routing and I've seen zero 'greening/corrosion' at any connections (I'm an avid fan of dielectric grease at all connections, SOP for me). In any case, Monoprice has been a very good vendor to deal with, can't say anything bad about them.

Consider 'growth' potential ..... I'm glad I ran 4-strand from my 'amp-bay' in the rear to all my speaker locations even though I had unused wires when I started. Only one-time to go through the hassle of routing cables (a PITA) and sure was glad I has those extra wires when I converted my A pillars from tweets-only to mid+tweets (changed from 2-way to 3-way active front stage). Same when I changed my center from 1-way to 2-way active.

Here's a pic of the Monoprice "Access" 4x16ga cable 'running exposed' to my door (I didn't want to drill-out my already full Molex door connector so ran this separate through an existing adjacent body plug and sealed the 'penetrations' with clear RTV). This has been in-place for over a year now and still looks like new - the outer sheath is showing no signs of wear/weather effects whatsoever.










*EDIT *- Planning on terminal strips? IMHO its a great idea to terminate all your 'long-runs' at terminal strips in your 'amp-bay' and then short runs from there to your amps/DSP - makes modifications super easy and clean. I use this type sourced locally., they cut-to length and make for a very 'sanitary' amp-bay.

Have Fun!


----------



## valow

FordEscape said:


> On a tip from DIYMA'er fourthmeal I bought the 4-strand x 16ga "Access" series cable from Monoprice when I did my first MS8 install; I was so happy with that stuff that I bought another 100ft when I needed more (added drivers to the system). Not sure how it compares to the "Nimbus" series you linked but the "Access" is super-flexible for routing and I've seen zero 'greening/corrosion' at any connections (I'm an avid fan of dielectric grease at all connections, SOP for me). In any case, Monoprice has been a very good vendor to deal with, can't say anything bad about them.
> 
> Here's a pic of the Monoprice "Access" 4x16ga cable 'running exposed' to my door (I didn't want to drill-out my already full Molex door connector so ran this separate through an existing adjacent body plug and sealed the 'penetrations' with clear RTV). This has been in-place for over a year now and still looks like new - the outer sheath is showing no signs of wear/weather effects whatsoever.


Awesome, thank you! 250ft are on order. I need to rerun the wiring for all my door drivers, including tweeters so I'll do it with this an have extra for another project, should it arise.

Thanks a ton!

Now just make my Sub/Amp decision for me, and I'll be set.


----------



## Lexingtonian

valow said:


> Awesome, thank you! 250ft are on order. I need to rerun the wiring for all my door drivers, including tweeters so I'll do it with this an have extra for another project, should it arise.
> 
> Thanks a ton!
> 
> Now just make my Sub/Amp decision for me, and I'll be set.


Timely post for me as well as I haven't ordered all my wiring yet. Tips on cheap/good 1/0ga, 4ga, distribution blocks and the like are welcome. 

Amps? Here's what I did. 

I bought 2 Soundstream Tarantula 4.900 Class D Amps. (150x4) for $119/piece on eBay. 
I bought 1 JL Audio JX500/D1 which has a high damping factor for $120 on Amazon (used). 

Total power RMS 1700 watts.. Clean power.. for less than $360... 
For Sub, I did the stealthbox because I want it out of the way and they just happen to be on sale at SonicElectronix right now. The have a coupon code for 15% off if you've never shopped with them before that gets the SB down in the $440 range. They have a 10% off coupon if you have shopped with them just for Stealthbox. All free ship - I just ordered the SB for my Explorer last night from them. Couldn't pass up over $100 off..


----------



## FordEscape

valow said:


> ... Now just make my Sub/Amp decision for me, and I'll be set.


Lol, joke I know but look at my sig-block. If install-depth-challenged like I am for the subs, I can't say enough good about the SI BMmkIV - I love the incredibly tight and clean punch they deliver _within the rated power spec limits_. 

Yeah, gotta find 'em in classifieds now but I bought my second one (and almost all my amps/speakers) from well-rated DIYMA classified sellers and have *never* been burned. IMHO with just a bit of prudence the DIYMA classifieds are one of the best things going here - a fantastic way to stretch the budget.

If not depth-limited then there's tons of choices and no shortage of 'reviews' on this forum.


----------



## valow

So, I'm a hip hop guy and mix in some rock here and there. I'm currently scoping out the JL 12TW3-D4s. I'd like to do two of them in a sealed enclosure with a JL HD750/1 driving them. Either that, or just do one in a _ported_ enclosure and make a nice amp rack with the remaining space. I want that beat in my chest, so I'm not sure if porting 1 12 or sealing 2 will have one benefit over the other.

I'd love it if I could consolidate my doors (6 speakers total) in to one amp, versus one 2 channel and 1 4 channel, but I don't see that happening for some time.

Edit: ported/sealed edit


----------



## valow

FordEscape said:


> Lol, joke I know but look at my sig-block. If install-depth-challenged like I am for the subs, I can't say enough good about the SI BMmkIV - I love the incredibly tight and clean punch they deliver _within the rated power spec limits_.
> 
> Yeah, gotta find 'em in classifieds now but I bought my second one (and almost all my amps/speakers) from well-rated DIYMA classified sellers and have *never* been burned. IMHO with just a bit of prudence the DIYMA classifieds are one of the best things going here - a fantastic way to stretch the budget.
> 
> If not depth-limited then there's tons of choices and no shortage of 'reviews' on this forum.


Absolutely - this forum has become my second home. I plan to use the classifieds as I'll have a FiX82 to sell here shortly (comes with a SPDIF cable). Along with a DRC-200. Even some Kenwood eXcelon 10s.


----------



## FordEscape

Lexingtonian said:


> .... Tips on cheap/good 1/0ga, 4ga, distribution blocks and the like are welcome....


Have you seen this thread http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...7218-cheap-expandable-distribution-block.html?

"Inexpensive" but definitely not cheap (quality), super-flexible, kinda funky 'form' but the 'function' can't be beat. For this engineer/architect the function _is the beauty_ of the form 

Yeah, they do require wire termination with copper-eye-ends properly soldered/swaged.

For grounds in the 'amp-bay' I use a DIY bus made from aluminum bar stock, drilled and tapped to suit.


valow said:


> So, I'm a hip hop guy ....


ooops, the SI BMmkIV maybe not your best choice :blush: :laugh:


----------



## James Cole

OK guys... bit the bullet, send me your blessings that I get a very nice clean low level output out of this truck...

Originally we started with the OEM Sony sound system, we reprogrammed for low level output and de-equalization. We did a quick little test with a speaker and were getting all sync 3 voice commands from the low level outputs without any other mods to the wiring, we chose to get the low level outputs from behind of the truck where they went to the OEM Sony amp. 

As you can see OEM Amp and sub are completely off the vehicle and not needed anymore, if this could not be done there´s no way in hell I would venture to add a system feeding of the Sony amp it would be terrible.


----------



## FordEscape

James Cole said:


> ....Originally we started with the OEM Sony sound system, we reprogrammed for low level output and de-equalization...


Can you share the exact address and hex code value changes you did to accomplish that?

Also, what year is your truck and is it SYNC2 or SYNC3?

Thank You!

(your project is looking good!)


----------



## valow

James Cole said:


> OK guys...


Wow man, that looks amazing! What are those pieces holding your speaker wires? I really want to do something like that. Plus the power distro piece but I need to do some math first.


----------



## James Cole

FordEscape said:


> Can you share the exact address and hex code value changes you did to accomplish that?
> 
> Also, what year is your truck and is it SYNC2 or SYNC3?
> 
> Thank You!
> 
> (your project is looking good!)


This is on a 17 F150 Ecoboost with Sync 3. 

Programmed the following:

ACM
727-01-01 xx5A xxxx xxxx
727-01-02 00xx

APIM
7D0-01-01 2xxx xxxx xxxx


----------



## James Cole

OK... it does work and works well. 

-Great SQ apparently 
-Low Noise Floor
-No turn off or turn on pops

Even the stock Sony system makes some funny digital noises when you turn all the volume down and the truck is off, those noises are now gone. 

JC


----------



## Lexingtonian

James Cole said:


> OK... it does work and works well.
> 
> -Great SQ apparently
> -Low Noise Floor
> -No turn off or turn on pops
> 
> Even the stock Sony system makes some funny digital noises when you turn all the volume down and the truck is off, those noises are now gone.
> 
> JC


Excellent work! A couple questions.

1. Did you solder RCA's to the L&R variable line level coming from the front? (see attachment). So you're simply doing a L+R into your Audison?


2. Confirmed that alert chimes and voice comes through those two connections? If that's true, I may simply send my PAC unit back. Way too easy..

3. On your ACM Programming it appears that one of the bits is undocumented according to the F150 Spreadsheet. That first zero in the 727-01-02. Any idea what it does?

ACM
727-01-01 xx5A xxxx xxxx
727-01-02 *0*0xx

4. How did you splice into your Sony Amp Harness? This is one I've been wrestling with as I'd love to find a male version of the harness to match it so I dont have to cut/splice. But hey. if we must we must..

Thanks!


----------



## James Cole

Lexingtonian said:


> Excellent work! A couple questions.
> 
> 1. Did you solder RCA's to the L&R variable line level coming from the front? (see attachment). So you're simply doing a L+R into your Audison?
> 
> 
> 2. Confirmed that alert chimes and voice comes through those two connections? If that's true, I may simply send my PAC unit back. Way too easy..
> 
> 3. On your ACM Programming it appears that one of the bits is undocumented according to the F150 Spreadsheet. That first zero in the 727-01-02. Any idea what it does?
> 
> ACM
> 727-01-01 xx5A xxxx xxxx
> 727-01-02 *0*0xx
> 
> 4. How did you splice into your Sony Amp Harness? This is one I've been wrestling with as I'd love to find a male version of the harness to match it so I dont have to cut/splice. But hey. if we must we must..
> 
> Thanks!


Lex

That is correct, I programmed and soldered the leads to some RCA cables, no other leads were added and I got all voice commands, chimes and rear proximity sensor. For the sensors you need to either sum the signal from the rear inputs so that it plays in the fronts or connect the rear leads to your amp/processor so that it plays on whatever rear speakers you have. 

Thanks!
JC


----------



## FordEscape

James Cole said:


> Lex
> 
> That is correct, I programmed and soldered the leads to some RCA cables, no other leads were added and I got all voice commands, chimes and rear proximity sensor. For the sensors you need to either sum the signal from the rear inputs so that it plays in the fronts or connect the rear leads to your amp/processor so that it plays on whatever rear speakers you have.
> 
> Thanks!
> JC


Pardon, but I'm a bit confused re: the OEM wires 'adapted to RCA' for input to your aftermarket DSP. 

Lexingtonian's pic highlights the wires that run _between the APIM and the ACM_. Did you cut or tap _those_ to feed to your new DSP, *or* did you solder the 'RCA adaptors' to _the F & R output leads from the ACM that run (ran) between the ACM and the abandoned Sony DSP_?

Apology in advance if I'm totally misreading this.


----------



## Lexingtonian

FordEscape said:


> Pardon, but I'm a bit confused re: the leads 'adapted to RCA' for input to your aftermarket DSP.
> 
> Lexingtonian's pic highlights the wires that run _between the APIM and the ACM_. Did you cut or tap _those_ to feed to your new DSP, *or* did you solder the 'RCA adaptors' to _the F & R output leads from the ACM that run (ran) between the ACM and the abandoned Sony DSP_?
> 
> Apology in advance if I'm totally misreading this.


Thanks for asking this! I had the same question but hadn't had the time to respond. Appreciate the sharp eye and the backup!


----------



## James Cole

NO,

Sorry guys misread the diagram... the wires you need come from ACM in the Sony system... the APIM is untouched and for simplicity sake you can grab the wires from the rear of the vehicle at the harness that connects to the sony amp...

Fordescape how did you wire yours?


----------



## FordEscape

James Cole said:


> NO,
> 
> Sorry guys misread the diagram... the wires you need come from ACM in the Sony system... the APIM is untouched and for simplicity sake you can grab the wires from the rear of the vehicle at the harness that connects to the sony amp...


OK, that makes sense (using the original ACM>Sony DSP for ACM>aftermarket DSP), thanks for the clarification.



James Cole said:


> Fordescape how did you wire yours?


I don't have a Sony system (thank goodness!), I'm following this for vicarious thrills and general education while tracking the Escape (Sony and non-Sony versions) wiring diagrams for comparison. So far the F150/Escape similarities are striking (haven't noted a meaningful difference yet). 

I haven't touched anything _between_ the APIM>ACM modules, I feed my ACM speaker outputs to my DSP (that's analogous to what you did, as clarified).


----------



## James Cole

FordEscape said:


> OK, that makes sense (using the original ACM>Sony DSP for ACM>aftermarket DSP), thanks for the clarification.
> 
> I don't have a Sony system (thank goodness!), I'm following this for vicarious thrills and general education while tracking the Escape (Sony and non-Sony versions) wiring diagrams for comparison. So far the F150/Escape similarities are striking (haven't noted a meaningful difference yet).
> 
> I haven't touched anything _between_ the APIM>ACM modules, I feed my ACM speaker outputs to my DSP (that's analogous to what you did, as clarified).


My wiring for me goes like this; ACM>Bit One>Amps>Speakers

The Sony DSP is completely disabled in the programming, if you do not disable it you wont get variable output from the ACM nor volume control, the volume knob stays at "zero" no matter how much you crank it... 

FordEscape how did you find the quality with your setup? I noticed you had some EQ issues showing up at different volumes, did that mess with your SQ in a considerable way?


----------



## James Cole

This is the F150 wiring diagram, as you can see the DSP is also the amplifier and its completely removed from the vehicle.

TO ME, this is the best mod you can do to any Ford system vs OEM integration units that are coming aftermarket for this system, its simple, cheap and best of all you add fewer devices to the audio chain. 

Thanks,
JC


----------



## FordEscape

Yeah, it seems you've effected the  monkey wrench solution I speculated about and apparently the single-digit APIM programming change makes moving the SYNC signal wires unnecessary.

With no additional components added to the audio chain - I agree wholeheartedly that's the 'optimum'.

I'd still like to see the scope applied to your reprogrammed ACM outputs at various volume levels - the programming I paid to have done was aimed at making that 'perfectly flat' at all volume (didn't happen ;-).

As I've said before, I get the audio equivalent of the 'perfect world' by leaving my ACM volume at the calibration level and using the DSP master volume. When I use the OEM volume controls it is less than 'perfect world' but is indiscernible except in the most critical listening conditions (not found when driving with road noise, etc)

But hey, I'm an engineer (and anal retentive), so heck yeah I'm gonna always want the 'TOTAL perfect world' so will keep watching for ways to get there. Thats' why I follow threads like this 

To that end I am very likely to go back in and reprogram my ACM myself using the additional data now publicly available (wasn't when I paid for it) to see if I can get that 'ideal world' ACM audio output _with_ the OEM operational convenience.


----------



## James Cole

FordEscape said:


> Yeah, it seems you've effected the  monkey wrench solution I speculated about and apparently the single-digit APIM programming change makes moving the SYNC signal wires unnecessary.
> 
> With no additional components added to the audio chain - I agree wholeheartedly that's the 'optimum'.
> 
> I'd still like to see the scope applied to your reprogrammed ACM outputs at various volume levels - the programming I paid to have done was aimed at making that 'perfectly flat' at all volume (didn't happen ;-).
> 
> I am very likely to go back in and reprogram my ACM using the additional data now publicly available (wasn't when I paid for it) to see if I can get that 'ideal world' ACM output.


Do you know what changes were made originally to your ACM & APIM?


----------



## dawaro

James Cole said:


> This is on a 17 F150 Ecoboost with Sync 3.
> 
> Programmed the following:
> 
> ACM
> 727-01-01 xx5A xxxx xxxx
> 727-01-02 00xx
> 
> APIM
> 7D0-01-01 2xxx xxxx xxxx


Does anyone know what the first '0' to 727-01-02 affects? I have found documentation that shows the second '0' is for the EQ selection but I cant find anything on the first value.

The value for mine factory unit is 5B8C.


----------



## Lexingtonian

I am HIGHLY CURIOUS how the ACM will perform. Oscilloscope ordered should be here early next week. The PAC unit came in today. I will measure the Line Out from the PAC against the Line Out from ACM. Should be interesting to see the pink noise curves. I also want to test for clipping, assuming those will be exactly the same though.. Lets to this!


----------



## Lexingtonian

dawaro said:


> Does anyone know what the first '0' to 727-01-02 affects? I have found documentation that shows the second '0' is for the EQ selection but I cant find anything on the first value.
> 
> The value for mine factory unit is 5B8C.


HA! I asked the same question above. It is undocumented to my knowledge..


----------



## FordEscape

James Cole said:


> Do you know what changes were made originally to your ACM & APIM?


No APIM changes were made since mine is OEM configured non-Sony. Only the ACM was changed in hope for flat EQ variable-volume output. All my signals, tones and controls worked fine.

Must admit that for the few days I had the re-programmed ACM I never connected FORScan to read the 'proprietary' programming changes, I was all focused on the audio output measurements with the scope and trying to resolve those findings with the vendor (we worked that out with a prompt return for refund). Thinking back, I'm not even sure if FORScan supported ACM reprogramming at that time, the vendor was using IDS I think.

Now there's tons of public late Ford entertainment system reprogramming info between the f150 and focus owner sites, and I'm now 'fearless' when it comes to trying changes of this sort with FORScan. 

It's just a personal time management issue - I know it'll take a few hours to do proper fully documented before and after scope runs, etc in the way I do these things. Perhaps this weekend.


----------



## MacLeod

Lexingtonian said:


> I am HIGHLY CURIOUS how the ACM will perform. Oscilloscope ordered should be here early next week. The PAC unit came in today. I will measure the Line Out from the PAC against the Line Out from ACM. Should be interesting to see the pink noise curves. I also want to test for clipping, assuming those will be exactly the same though.. Lets to this!


I can't wait to see the results. If this works, it looks like you guys have figured out the holy grail to these damn F150 sound systems especially the nightmare that is the Sony "premium" system.

The volume dependent EQ'ing is what I'm most interested in. That's the biggest pain in the balls right there.


----------



## Lexingtonian

MacLeod said:


> I can't wait to see the results. If this works, it looks like you guys have figured out the holy grail to these damn F150 sound systems especially the nightmare that is the Sony "premium" system.
> 
> The volume dependent EQ'ing is what I'm most interested in. That's the biggest pain in the balls right there.


I'm very excited to see how this goes. We will know something next week. I'll do a video so you guys can see it in real-time and the effect of the volume to the signal.


----------



## bdmach1

Do you guys know about this yet??? Go to about 8:00 into the video...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxMZqnXftZc

Bob


----------



## bdmach1

Do you guys know about this yet??? Go to about 8:00 minutes into the video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxMZqnXftZc

Bob


----------



## Lexingtonian

bdmach1 said:


> Do you guys know about this yet??? Go to about 8:00 minutes into the video...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxMZqnXftZc
> 
> Bob


I was in fact aware. Many of us though are preferring to connect to the low-level outs at the AMP and not behind the ACM. He's done, basically what PAC has done. Now the question is whether PAC is actually achieving some de-eq magic that the ACM FORScan hacks do not. We'll know that story early next week after my o-scope arrives. The guys in the video is the same guy that's offering Ford Sync2 (MFT) to Sync3 upgrades. He's a good honest guy from what I can tell.


----------



## FordEscape

Lexingtonian said:


> I was in fact aware. Many of us though are preferring to connect to the low-level outs at the AMP and not behind the ACM. He's done, basically what PAC has done. Now the question is whether PAC is actually achieving some de-eq magic that the ACM FORScan hacks do not. We'll know that story early next week after my o-scope arrives. The guys in the video is the same guy that's offering Ford Sync2 (MFT) to Sync3 upgrades. He's a good honest guy from what I can tell.


Jesse's (OEM_radio) video is showing exactly what you are pursuing from a functional standpoint, eliminating the Sony amp and reprogramming the APIM/ACM for variable low-level output. I'm sure he'll be glad to sell the reprogramming devices without the harness if you don't want to tap the wires at the ACM but use the existing harness to your (removed) Sony amp location. But all the info needed to DIY that now seems to be 'out' on a variety of forums as evidenced in this thread.

Jesse's the guy that did my non-Sony reprogramming that's well-documented above and especially detailed in this thread. 

At the time of our dealings (April 2016) Jesse acknowledged he had no capability to actually measure the detailed characteristics of an audio output signal (i.e. no O-Scope) and was surprised by the O-scope plots I shared with him from measuring the unit he provided to me. Whatever tool he was using to base his 'clipping speaker-level output' allegation, I was never able to reproduce that with my HU/ACM using an O-scope for measurement and 0dB test tones at any frequency or volume level. At _that_ time Jesse explained he was a programmer focused on Ford modules and adding NAV, SYNC upgrades, etc, 'not really an audio guy'.

IMHO Jesse is a well-intentioned and honorable person, he just may not be as attuned to some of the nuances of audio spectrum details that some DIYMA'ers may be. Maybe that has changed since a year ago. He's captive to whatever the Ford reprogramming will accomplish as we all are. To me there's no "alternative facts" (ooops, went 'political' there for a moment ;-) for "flat output with no EQ at all volume levels". Lexingtonian's highly anticipated 'scoping' of the reprogrammed Sony ACM will 'tell the tale' on that. 

Though the result was not as _*I *_hoped, Jesse did 'make good' to my satisfaction (accepted return of the re-programmed ACM and refunded my purchase cost). He's clearly upped-his-game by using re-programming dongles now instead of shipping APIMs/ACMs back-and-forth for reprogramming .... good for him on that innovation!

Sorry for the additional long tangent, but since it came up .....


----------



## MacLeod

FordEscape said:


> At the time of our dealings (April 2016) Jesse acknowledged he had no capability to actually measure the detailed characteristics of an audio output signal (i.e. no O-Scope) and was surprised by the O-scope plots I shared with him from measuring the unit he provided to me. Whatever tool he was using to base his 'clipping speaker-level output' allegation, I was never able to reproduce that with my HU/ACM using an O-scope for measurement and 0dB test tones at any frequency or volume level. At _that_ time Jesse explained he was a programmer focused on Ford modules and adding NAV, SYNC upgrades, etc, 'not really an audio guy'.


I kinda wondered about that clipping video. It made it look like the stock head unit was clipping at like 2/3 volume which seems awful low to me. Most head units don't clip to near max volume. I can't imagine that Ford and Sony would design a sound system that clips at that low a volume. Those delicate paper speakers would be ripped to shreds I would think. Not accusing the guy of anything shady, like you said, he's not an audio guy but that just doesn't sound right to me.


----------



## FordEscape

MacLeod said:


> I kinda wondered about that clipping video. It made it look like the stock head unit was clipping at like 2/3 volume which seems awful low to me. Most head units don't clip to near max volume. I can't imagine that Ford and Sony would design a sound system that clips at that low a volume. Those delicate paper speakers would be ripped to shreds I would think. Not accusing the guy of anything shady, like you said, he's not an audio guy but that just doesn't sound right to me.


Obviously intentional EQ factors aside, mine 'scopes clean as a whistle, lovely un-distorted sine waves 20Hz -20kHz from 0 to max volume. So I definitely agree with his, and some other's assertion, that the late Ford ACMs are a very decent, if not actually "good", base for an SQ system.

The _sole_ caveat is that some have reported a very slight noise floor that's detectible and objectionable to them. A scope will always detect a noise floor but I've no experience for relating that data to audible reality. In my case I can't say that the noise floor affects my listening one iota, even in 'dead-air' music passages. There's certainly no noise floor that is rising with volume increase. I can't help but wonder if those finding an objectionable noise floor are unfortunate victims of a particular ACM or vehicle assembly flaw - there's just so many variables that can contribute to that sort of thing.


----------



## MacLeod

FordEscape said:


> Obviously intentional EQ factors aside, mine 'scopes clean as a whistle, lovely un-distorted sine waves 20Hz -20kHz from 0 to max volume. So I definitely agree with his, and some other's assertion, that the late Ford ACMs are a very decent, if not actually "good", base for an SQ system.
> 
> The _sole_ caveat is that some have reported a very slight noise floor that's detectible and objectionable to them. A scope will always detect a noise floor but I've no experience for relating that data to audible reality. In my case I can't say that the noise floor affects my listening one iota, even in 'dead-air' music passages. There's certainly no noise floor that is rising with volume increase. I can't help but wonder if those finding an objectionable noise floor are unfortunate victims of a particular ACM or vehicle assembly flaw - there's just so many variables that can contribute to that sort of thing.


Noise floors can depend on the equipment used too. Using a passive LOC and low powered amp with the gains too high will give you a lot of hiss. A proper LOC or something like the Fix that will boost the output signal then paired with powerful amps with proper gain settings should result in very little to no hiss.


----------



## Lexingtonian

MacLeod said:


> Noise floors can depend on the equipment used too. Using a passive LOC and low powered amp with the gains too high will give you a lot of hiss. A proper LOC or something like the Fix that will boost the output signal then paired with powerful amps with proper gain settings should result in very little to no hiss.


This is exactly why I'm using 8 channels at 125 watts. I dont need all that power and can turn the gains down... QUIET.. It also helps damping factor quite a bit not running amps at the ragged edge. 

Getting all my gear in now. Now I need a weekend wife-free to install it all and I have no idea where I'll come up with that! 

O Scope looks like it'll be here mid-late next week.


----------



## FordEscape

James Cole said:


> .... Originally we started with the OEM Sony sound system, we reprogrammed for low level output and de-equalization. We did a quick little test with a speaker and were getting all sync 3 voice commands from the low level outputs *without any other mods to the wiring *....


James, not to belabor, doubt or disparage but noting this from another forum:

_" If coming from the Sony amp you will need to add two wires to the ACM Harness (Pins 8, 21) and tap into the APIM Harness to connect those wires to the existing wires coming out of (Pins 3,4) respectively. This is not a requirement, but if these wires are not added then you will not have any Voice Navigation or Voice Command Prompts. These two wires are to hear the Female Sync Voice which were previously sent down to the Sony Amp. Ford Part Number: DU2Z-14474-CA
- Vehicles without the Sony amp (other than hybrid/energi) should already have these wires in place so this extra wiring step is not necessary. "_

*Link To Source Forum Post with full context, pics, etc.*

Accepting you did a "quick little test" .... are you absolutely sure that in your F150 implementation you have the specific 'female voice' features mentioned in that cite (_without_ doing the simple wiring modification)? 

If yes, that's really cool.

If no, IMHO _that's not at all a fatal flaw_, the fix is simple, elegant and IMHO still well-worthwhile considering the many benefits of the 'no-extra-module' solution. 

My interest is just ensuring that all here are getting as complete an understanding as possible of the sometimes devilish-details needed to get the full-featured upgrade they desire when they 'ditch' the Sony amp.

Sincere thanks for your understanding, contributions and confirmation !


----------



## MacLeod

Metra has a new dash kit out. Looks to be better fit and finish than the Scosche model but it's hard to tell as the picture isn't super detailed. Found one on Ebay for $399 but not sure if it's an authorized dealer or not. Can't seem to find them anywhere else.


----------



## valow

PAC unit is installed. Had a couple distractions including a health scare with my dad. He's fine though thank goodness. I haven't tuned anything from scratch yet but I'll need to. First thing I noticed was how much quieter the system was. No more volume dependent EQ so I'll have to bring the levels back up in the TwK and refine everything with REW and the mic. Very happy overall!


----------



## Dustin

Got mine installed last night, works great. I also verified the calls and alerts do only come through the front channel, other than the rear chimes that come through the rear channel. Nothing comes through the sub channel. Going to retune and take some readings tonight.

You went with optical output right valow?


----------



## valow

Correct I went optical.


----------



## Lexingtonian

Just an update - Looks like I'll have a chance to begin my install over the weekend. My Oscilloscope is in and I've played with it enough to be able to replicate @FordEscape's results. I'm going to begin work on Friday night and hopefully will be finished with the full install by EOD Saturday. (JBL MS8, 3 Amps, Tweets + 8's in door, Noico Door Deadnening, Center Channel fabrication). Looking forward to testing the PAC unit, I'll be doing that first and will create a video. Will also try the EQ APM settings (not sure if I'll do them all) with Forscan. I'm dreading the long install but looking forward to getting it done (or somewhere close). Unfortunately my SUB hasn't come in yet, looks like I'll be hooking my AMP to the OEM 8" sub for the time being.


----------



## valow

Looking forward to hearing how it went Lex. For anyone that wants a reference, this video shows exactly what to do to pull the headunit. Have fun. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELxHaEb1Iw4


----------



## valow

Also post pics. I'm pumped about this weekend too. Upgrading subs, sub amp and also going to clean this pig up. Need to pull out all the runs from the amp. JL HD 750/1 and 2 12TW3-D4s. Building the enclosures. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

Lexingtonian said:


> Just an update - Looks like I'll have a chance to begin my install over the weekend. My Oscilloscope is in and I've played with it enough to be able to replicate @FordEscape's results. I'm going to begin work on Friday night and hopefully will be finished with the full install by EOD Saturday. (JBL MS8, 3 Amps, Tweets + 8's in door, Noico Door Deadnening, Center Channel fabrication). Looking forward to testing the PAC unit, I'll be doing that first and will create a video. Will also try the EQ APM settings (not sure if I'll do them all) with Forscan. I'm dreading the long install but looking forward to getting it done (or somewhere close). Unfortunately my SUB hasn't come in yet, looks like I'll be hooking my AMP to the OEM 8" sub for the time being.


What sub did you go with?


----------



## Lexingtonian

valow said:


> What sub did you go with?


I have the Explorer and I went with the JL Sealthbox with 10W3v3. With the cabin gain and 500 watts, I believe it'll be more than enough for me.


----------



## FordEscape

Lexingtonian said:


> Just an update - Looks like I'll have a chance to begin my install over the weekend. My Oscilloscope is in and I've played with it enough to be able to replicate @FordEscape's results. I'm going to begin work on Friday night and hopefully will be finished with the full install by EOD Saturday. (JBL MS8, 3 Amps, Tweets + 8's in door, Noico Door Deadnening, Center Channel fabrication). Looking forward to testing the PAC unit, I'll be doing that first and will create a video. Will also try the EQ APM settings (not sure if I'll do them all) with Forscan. I'm dreading the long install but looking forward to getting it done (or somewhere close). Unfortunately my SUB hasn't come in yet, looks like I'll be hooking my AMP to the OEM 8" sub for the time being.


Take your time and make it fun!


----------



## MacLeod

Looking forward to results. I'm still watching and looking stuff up. Had family in last weekend and I'm working this weekend so hopefully I can get my gear installed next weekend. Getting tired of looking at all that wonderful gear sitting in my garage and can't wait to actually be listening to it.


----------



## wroberts

My F150 has been in the shop for the last 2 weeks, in which time my speakers, all my install cable, my PAC unit, and 2/4 of my subs have arrived. Just sitting in the corner, waiting...


----------



## Locomotive Tech

Sweet, I think were as anxious as you are. All that gear sitting around! Water, water everywhere!


----------



## valow

Something is in the air. I have subs and an amp plus enclosure materials waiting. I had to bug out and spend some time with my dad, which is far more important but will get to it next weekend. Hope your install goes well and the shop bill is cheap!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wroberts

Yeah somehow someone didn't see a Blue SCrew behind them when they were pulling out of their driveway... so for me the shop bill isn't relevant, what is relevant is that they do a good job and I get it back in a somewhat timely manner so I can get my box measured out for my 4 Summo 84's that are going under the back seat haha.


----------



## dawaro

wroberts said:


> Yeah somehow someone didn't see a Blue SCrew behind them when they were pulling out of their driveway... so for me the shop bill isn't relevant, what is relevant is that they do a good job and I get it back in a somewhat timely manner so I can get my box measured out for my 4 Summo 84's that are going under the back seat haha.


You might find this interesting. Not sure what your design plans are but I would imagine the Summo's and the DD's are close in size.

2014 F150 underseat sub enclosure - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> You might find this interesting. Not sure what your design plans are but I would imagine the Summo's and the DD's are close in size.
> 
> 
> 
> 2014 F150 underseat sub enclosure - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum




That looks great


----------



## wroberts

dawaro said:


> You might find this interesting. Not sure what your design plans are but I would imagine the Summo's and the DD's are close in size.
> 
> 
> That box looks sweet. Im planning on 4 sealed chambers, I don't have anywhere near enough space to port that box. My back seat isn't on a riser so it's out of the question.


----------



## Lexingtonian

Gents I've started my own build log as it pertains to my Explorer. I didn't want to fully hijack. Unfortunately I didn't get to do the Oscilloscope measurements as I never got that far this weekend. Perhaps this week. I'm keen to get that part done for sure..

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...6-ford-explorer-sport-build-log-new-post.html


----------



## optimaprime

Ok trying catch up I have posted time or two in this log I have 2013 crew cab Sony 8 inch screen wanna do two way active setup plus sub . What's this PAC piece ?? I'll be using alpine pdxv9 jl 10wt3 in supercrewsound box. Those guys have always done good job for me. Helix dsp the original one. And kicker QS series over size mid component set up front. Wanna salemthem but they where free and are kickers flag ship model. Can some catch a brother up while read all 12 pages again


----------



## wroberts

optimaprime said:


> Ok trying catch up I have posted time or two in this log I have 2013 crew cab Sony 8 inch screen wanna do two way active setup plus sub . What's this PAC piece ?? I'll be using alpine pdxv9 jl 10wt3 in supercrewsound box. Those guys have always done good job for me. Helix dsp the original one. And kicker QS series over size mid component set up front. Wanna salemthem but they where free and are kickers flag ship model. Can some catch a brother up while read all 12 pages again


The PAC AP4-FD21 is a $250 LOC specifically for the Sony audio fords 2013+ I think. It plugs into the Nav and the harness to bypass the ridiculous onboard amplifier completely keeping you from having to cut into the wire harness. I got one but I'm still waiting on my F150 to get back from the shop so I can plug it in. Its completely plug and play and it gives you a flat EQ out of the head unit. It gives you 6 RCA outs as well.


----------



## optimaprime

wroberts said:


> The PAC AP4-FD21 is a $250 LOC specifically for the Sony audio fords 2013+ I think. It plugs into the Nav and the harness to bypass the ridiculous onboard amplifier completely keeping you from having to cut into the wire harness. I got one but I'm still waiting on my F150 to get back from the shop so I can plug it in. Its completely plug and play and it gives you a flat EQ out of the head unit. It gives you 6 RCA outs as well.


Thank you much sir ! Where guys getting from? Do they plug in by amp or behind head unit? I am all about not cutting!!! Optical To helix sounds fun to


----------



## valow

optimaprime said:


> Thank you much sir ! Where guys getting from? Do they plug in by amp or behind head unit? I am all about not cutting!!! Optical To helix sounds fun to




ABT Electronics carries them. I also went with the APA-TOS1 for a toslink output.


----------



## valow

So we built a box. Going to have to modify the sides a BT for clearance but here is the garage build. Just needs sanded and carpeted.


----------



## valow

optimaprime said:


> Ok trying catch up I have posted time or two in this log I have 2013 crew cab Sony 8 inch screen wanna do two way active setup plus sub . What's this PAC piece ?? I'll be using alpine pdxv9 jl 10wt3 in supercrewsound box. Those guys have always done good job for me. Helix dsp the original one. And kicker QS series over size mid component set up front. Wanna salemthem but they where free and are kickers flag ship model. Can some catch a brother up while read all 12 pages again


Here is a link:
PAC Audio Advanced Amplifier Interface - AP4-FD21

Also, higher up in the thread is a video on how to remove the head unit. Helped me a ton. LOVE the product so far. I even tried to tune my RF P400x4 amp driving my doors and turn up the H/U until it clips...never clipped. At least according to the tell-tale lights on the amp. That was using a 1k Hz tone at 0db.


----------



## valow

Lexingtonian said:


> Gents I've started my own build log as it pertains to my Explorer. I didn't want to fully hijack. Unfortunately I didn't get to do the Oscilloscope measurements as I never got that far this weekend. Perhaps this week. I'm keen to get that part done for sure..
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...6-ford-explorer-sport-build-log-new-post.html


Great post man! Especially liked the shout out to this thread. It's my 15 minutes of fame, Internet style. 

Keep the posts coming, I subbed to it.


----------



## optimaprime

valow said:


> So we built a box. Going to have to modify the sides a BT for clearance but here is the garage build. Just needs sanded and carpeted.


Thanks for all help !! Box looks good what's going in it ?


----------



## valow

optimaprime said:


> Thanks for all help !! Box looks good what's going in it ?


Thanks
2 JL Audio 12TW3-D4s
12TW3-D4 - Car Audio - Subwoofer Drivers - TW3 - JL Audio


----------



## optimaprime

valow said:


> Thanks
> 2 JL Audio 12TW3-D4s
> 12TW3-D4 - Car Audio - Subwoofer Drivers - TW3 - JL Audio


That's sound fantastic I love my single 10tw3 .


----------



## valow

optimaprime said:


> That's sound fantastic I love my single 10tw3 .


Yeah, I'm definitely pumped to get them going. I'm going to use the JL HD750/1 to drive them.


----------



## Lexingtonian

valow said:


> Here is a link:
> PAC Audio Advanced Amplifier Interface - AP4-FD21
> 
> Also, higher up in the thread is a video on how to remove the head unit. Helped me a ton. LOVE the product so far. I even tried to tune my RF P400x4 amp driving my doors and turn up the H/U until it clips...never clipped. At least according to the tell-tale lights on the amp. That was using a 1k Hz tone at 0db.


You observed correctly, the line outs on this head unit will not clip. Quite impressive!


----------



## dawaro

wroberts said:


> dawaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> You might find this interesting. Not sure what your design plans are but I would imagine the Summo's and the DD's are close in size.
> 
> 
> That box looks sweet. Im planning on 4 sealed chambers, I don't have anywhere near enough space to port that box. My back seat isn't on a riser so it's out of the question.
> 
> 
> 
> I built a box similar to this for a pair of down-firing SD3-10's but I ended up scrapping it. I just didn't like the way the box looked. Especially when I needed to fold the seats up.
> 
> My latest hair brained idea is to move the rear seat forward 3" and mount everything behind the seat. I have a template cut but I need to get it to a shop with a water-jet machine to have it made out of 1/4" steel plate.
Click to expand...


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> wroberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> I built a box similar to this for a pair of down-firing SD3-10's but I ended up scrapping it. I just didn't like the way the box looked. Especially when I needed to fold the seats up.
> 
> My latest hair brained idea is to move the rear seat forward 3" and mount everything behind the seat. I have a template cut but I need to get it to a shop with a water-jet machine to have it made out of 1/4" steel plate.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually was just looking in to ways to raise the seat roughly 1". However I'm not sure how to go about doing so safely and without compromising anything from that perspective. 2 kids back there, friends, family what have you are way more important than a box fitting under the seat. LMI makes some stuff, but it raises it about 3" and I've heard mixed reviews on them. Plus 3" is too high
Click to expand...


----------



## dawaro

valow said:


> Thanks
> 2 JL Audio 12TW3-D4s
> 12TW3-D4 - Car Audio - Subwoofer Drivers - TW3 - JL Audio


Yea, it looks like you are going to have some clearance issues with the woofers with the risers you have now. The flanges on the TW3 are pretty thick to start out with and then when you take in the xmax consideration it adds up.

I think for my 10's it was 1.1" clearance from the face of the flange. The easiest way to measure it is to get the insert grilles from JL.


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> Yea, it looks like you are going to have some clearance issues with the woofers with the risers you have now. The flanges on the TW3 are pretty thick to start out with and then when you take in the xmax consideration it adds up.
> 
> I think for my 10's it was 1.1" clearance from the face of the flange. The easiest way to measure it is to get the insert grilles from JL.


Yep - the risers are coming off this week and we'll rebuild them.

The existing box I have now goes from roughly 6.5" at the rear up to 9.5" in the front. I think if we get that angle down correctly, the sub should fire just fine. It's a downfire too.

Current box dimensions (without risers) are 52"x14"x6.5"x5.5". With the riser for the front bringing it up to 9.5", I should be fine, and it will basically match what I have now.


----------



## whippoorwill

dawaro said:


> wroberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> I built a box similar to this for a pair of down-firing SD3-10's but I ended up scrapping it. I just didn't like the way the box looked. Especially when I needed to fold the seats up.
> 
> My latest hair brained idea is to move the rear seat forward 3" and mount everything behind the seat. I have a template cut but I need to get it to a shop with a water-jet machine to have it made out of 1/4" steel plate.
> 
> 
> 
> After following this thread and another one on behind-the-seat subs, and looking at the LMI and Supercrew Sounds risers I got in the back of my 2012 F150 supercrew to check things out. Looks like raising the rear seat 2.5” would be way too much and I didn’t see an easy way to move the seat forward. So I’m looking forward to seeing how your idea works out. My own hair brained idea was to raise the seat 1” and move it forward 1.5" to 2”. Never took trig in school and surely would have flunked it if I had so I don’t know if that would yield enough room for a box for two 10 or 12” subs behind the seat. Do you think there is a chance it might work?
Click to expand...


----------



## billj214

After reading about this PAC device I just bought one on Amazon.com for $213, details say it's for 2015 to 2017 but I'm sure it will work on 2013 as PAC website suggests. I wish one of you guys had some feedback on how well this works unless I missed that conversation! Super excited to eliminate the Sony amp and get a flat response to work with on my Helix DSP. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

Mine is in a 2014 and I LOVE it. Clean flat signal from what my ears tell me. Scope results will be posted by others when they install theirs.


----------



## billj214

valow said:


> Mine is in a 2014 and I LOVE it. Clean flat signal from what my ears tell me. Scope results will be posted by others when they install theirs.


Thanks for the feedback, now I wont be able to sleep until I get it in the mail! 

Questions? Did you use optical? Does the PAC unit include a volume control for individual line control for use on subs? Can I remove the Sony amp completely with no issues? If there are six channels what are the last two assigned to? Any option for center channel? 

Thanks!


----------



## wroberts

If anyone has a 2014 model Supercrew with power rear window that's made an amplifier rack for the back wall, could I have the measurements for the rack? Mine got a 3 day extension at the shop and I'm off work until Friday and I'm absolutely squirming to work on SOMETHING.... Thanks in advance


----------



## dawaro

valow said:


> dawaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> I actually was just looking in to ways to raise the seat roughly 1". However I'm not sure how to go about doing so safely and without compromising anything from that perspective. 2 kids back there, friends, family what have you are way more important than a box fitting under the seat. LMI makes some stuff, but it raises it about 3" and I've heard mixed reviews on them. Plus 3" is too high
> 
> 
> 
> I looked at what LMI offers and personally I am not a fan. To me they just don't look very appealing. They may work great but I cant get past the cosmetic appearance of them.
Click to expand...


----------



## dawaro

whippoorwill said:


> dawaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> [/COLOR]
> 
> After following this thread and another one on behind-the-seat subs, and looking at the LMI and Supercrew Sounds risers I got in the back of my 2012 F150 supercrew to check things out. Looks like raising the rear seat 2.5” would be way too much and I didn’t see an easy way to move the seat forward. So I’m looking forward to seeing how your idea works out. My own hair brained idea was to raise the seat 1” and move it forward 1.5" to 2”. Never took trig in school and surely would have flunked it if I had so I don’t know if that would yield enough room for a box for two 10 or 12” subs behind the seat. Do you think there is a chance it might work?
> 
> 
> 
> It is really going to depend on the depth of the speaker you choose. Even with what I am looking at I am planning to do most of the enclosure in fiberglass to squeeze out as much air space as I can.
Click to expand...


----------



## dawaro

wroberts said:


> If anyone has a 2014 model Supercrew with power rear window that's made an amplifier rack for the back wall, could I have the measurements for the rack? Mine got a 3 day extension at the shop and I'm off work until Friday and I'm absolutely squirming to work on SOMETHING.... Thanks in advance


I dont have measurements but there is some interesting options in this thread:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/152629-miloxs-2012-ford-raptor-11.html

Look at post 262 and 263.


----------



## wroberts

dawaro said:


> I dont have measurements but there is some interesting options in this thread:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/152629-miloxs-2012-ford-raptor-11.html
> 
> Look at post 262 and 263.


You are a saint.


----------



## valow

billj214 said:


> Thanks for the feedback, now I wont be able to sleep until I get it in the mail!
> 
> Questions? Did you use optical? Does the PAC unit include a volume control for individual line control for use on subs? Can I remove the Sony amp completely with no issues? If there are six channels what are the last two assigned to? Any option for center channel?
> 
> Thanks!


Here you go:
http://www.pac-audio.com/downloads/ap4-fd21_instructions_020717.pdf

I went optical, which I'd recommend just because you don't have to worry about voltage...and if you have the ability to go optical out to your DSP, why not?

The manual will answer all your questions about the product - I'd end up having to quote it, but it does have a volume knob, however if I remember correctly it's only for the factory chimes db levels. I didn't install mine, I was happy with the default levels. 

In regards to pulling the amp - I'm sure you could if you wanted to, but when you install this product if you don't need the space under the console, I wouldn't worry about it in all honesty - you've already completely bypassed it so it's not interfering.


----------



## valow

wroberts said:


> If anyone has a 2014 model Supercrew with power rear window that's made an amplifier rack for the back wall, could I have the measurements for the rack? Mine got a 3 day extension at the shop and I'm off work until Friday and I'm absolutely squirming to work on SOMETHING.... Thanks in advance


I was considering making a rack this weekend, so I haven't measured yet.  however I have a tape in my truck and can measure it out at lunch if you want.


----------



## valow

This is another helpful video in terms of REW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4uSR3cUUSY


----------



## optimaprime

There's couple of crew cab builds on here but more crew cab raptors which are same. 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...or-dynaudio-take-2-esotar-*pic-overload*.html


----------



## optimaprime

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ry/267985-14-roush-raptor-kicker-q-class.html

One of my favs


----------



## wroberts

valow said:


> wroberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone has a 2014 model Supercrew with power rear window that's made an amplifier rack for the back wall, could I have the measurements for the rack? Mine got a 3 day extension at the shop and I'm off work until Friday and I'm absolutely squirming to work on SOMETHING.... Thanks in advance
> 
> 
> 
> I was considering making a rack this weekend, so I haven't measured yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> however I have a tape in my truck and can measure it out at lunch if you want.
Click to expand...

That would be awesome. I know it's kind of late now but that would be extremely helpful tomorrow


----------



## valow

wroberts said:


> That would be awesome. I know it's kind of late now but that would be extremely helpful tomorrow


Man I'm sorry, I didn't get a chance to measure, and I didn't see this until this morning. I'm home with calls until 11 my time, but can get some quick measurements after that.


----------



## wroberts

valow said:


> Man I'm sorry, I didn't get a chance to measure, and I didn't see this until this morning. I'm home with calls until 11 my time, but can get some quick measurements after that.


I appreciate it, man!


----------



## valow

wroberts said:


> I appreciate it, man!


I think I'm fired - I'd give you my list of excuses but either way I didn't get to this. Snow, family in town, funeral, work, kids, blah blah blah.

I'm hoping to have some time today after I Get home from everything. If not, tomorrow morning I'll do it as I'm going to have it all apart.


----------



## wroberts

valow said:


> I think I'm fired - I'd give you my list of excuses but either way I didn't get to this. Snow, family in town, funeral, work, kids, blah blah blah.
> 
> I'm hoping to have some time today after I Get home from everything. If not, tomorrow morning I'll do it as I'm going to have it all apart.


You're killing me smalls. It's alright man, the hardware store is open tomorrow too. Sorry for your loss though.


----------



## valow

wroberts said:


> You're killing me smalls. It's alright man, the hardware store is open tomorrow too. Sorry for your loss though.




54" wide 20" tall of what I'd call usable space. Passenger side to edge of rear window motor 25". Driver side to edge of motor about 24". Rear window motor at its widest is 6.5". Floor to bottom of motor is 7". Floor to bottom of drivers rear seat belt assembly is 15".


----------



## valow

Excuse the mess. Tomorrow is cleaning day for it.


----------



## wroberts

valow said:


> 54" wide 20" tall of what I'd call usable space. Passenger side to edge of rear window motor 25". Driver side to edge of motor about 24". Rear window motor at its widest is 6.5". Floor to bottom of motor is 7". Floor to bottom of drivers rear seat belt assembly is 15".


You're my hero


----------



## valow

54" was to the bottom of the edge of the beauty panel on the bottom. You can probably go wider if you want. Like 2-3"


----------



## wroberts

valow said:


> 54" was to the bottom of the edge of the beauty panel on the bottom. You can probably go wider if you want. Like 2-3"


Looking at your equipment those 2 panels you made look to be about all im gonna need to do my install to be honest


----------



## valow

Oh sweet. When it warms up I'm going to do a better rack and carpet it. Plus I want to do a power distribution block for the amps as well. I'll probably cut out squares in the panel for the vents on the back wall of the cab too. I have enough MDF left from the box build to do it.


----------



## wroberts

Warms up? It's odd to think it's cold in other places today. It's pushing about 76 here today.. I'm only running 2 amps, 2 distribution blocks and a fuse for the back wall. So I really don't need much of a footprint to be honest.


----------



## valow

Talk to me about your distribution blocks. How many 0 or 4 awg going to each? How many connections off each? I want to do it right


----------



## wroberts

I actually have a bit of an odd setup, I have 2 AWG going in for power, splitting to a 2 AWG going to my sub amp, and an 8 AWG with a 60 amp fuse on it going to my speaker amplifier. Then the other block is going to be the ground block with a 2 and an 8 going in and a 2 coming out to the chassis


----------



## dawaro

Well I spoke to a tech at RF yesterday and the DSR1 DSP is still in development. According to the tech they are still waiting on ADS to finish the interface and then they still have to test it...

I guess technically spring doesnt end until June 30th but a 'spring' release date sounds optimistic at this point.


----------



## valow

That's a bummer. I know you've been patiently waiting...


----------



## dawaro

At this point I am probably just going to use the PAC interface and the 3sixty3 that I already have.

Started ripping things apart today to install the 3-way Audio Frogs in the front. I am having to rebuild the inner door due to a failed experiment with the Anarchy mids so it is taking some extra time. I think I have all my templates built so I hope to have them installed tomorrow.


----------



## valow

Let me know how it goes. I got my 2 12s installed in that custom fab box my neighbor did 99% of the work on. I'm no woodworker. It looks and sounds amazing. That JL amp humps it too. Gonna upgrade speaker wire in the doors tomorrow and tune the TwK again. Love it.


----------



## MacLeod

I started gutting mine tonight and will really jump in tomorrow. Hopefully I can get everything in and playing music by tomorrow night. I decided to mount my amp and processors in the little storage bin under the back seat. They fit perfectly in there and everything I normally carry there, I can easily stuff behind the seats instead. I'm always hiding my gear and for once kinda want to mount it where it's easy to show off. Who knows. I may even get around to building a more custom box, put a plexiglass cover over the amp/DSP's and throwing some lighting in there. 

I'm figuring 2 hours per door, 2 hours to get the stock head unit out, the Parrot wiring harness hooked up and ran and the stock unit put back (using Stinger Speedwire so shouldn't take too long), 2 hours to get all the wires ran then 1 hour to get the tweets in the pillars. Got some PVC end caps painted up with black texture paint and will be using them to mount the tweets in the pillars on axis because I can't do fiberglass. I have also thought of using some Focal mounting cups I have and then taking the pillars off and letting a shop mold them in to the pillars for me - haven't decided yet. I'll wait til tomorrow to make the final call on that.


----------



## valow

Picture time.


----------



## billj214

May be too late with all the work you did but I would move the rear window motor up higher, here is a pic of mine. I removed rear factory cover and re-covered metal with dynomat, insulation and carpet. I wanted to mount my subs downfiring but some people were saying the speakers will drop out when off-roading (F150 Raptor). Could you tell if downfiring sounds better then facing up? Any quick way of comparison? 

Project looks good, thanks for sharing.


----------



## Unsecured_WiFi

for some reason i cant read page 14 of this thread...lol


----------



## wroberts

That looks great!


----------



## whippoorwill

same here


----------



## valow

billj214 said:


> May be too late with all the work you did but I would move the rear window motor up higher, here is a pic of mine. I removed rear factory cover and re-covered metal with dynomat, insulation and carpet. I wanted to mount my subs downfiring but some people were saying the speakers will drop out when off-roading (F150 Raptor). Could you tell if downfiring sounds better then facing up? Any quick way of comparison?
> 
> Project looks good, thanks for sharing.


Wow, that looks great. This summer I plan on pulling out the rear and doing the same, now that I know you can just move that motor without issues I think I'll do that. Thanks for sharing. Now that everything is in and working, I'm a bit antsy to at least get everything looking good back there.


----------



## optimaprime

Down firing the subs is nice because they can load off the floor. Assuming you have decent space between floor and sub and it's not just hammering in to the carpet. Other then that you front face the subs which works well but if you have kids or passengers grills are necessary and kinda look ugly .


----------



## valow

optimaprime said:


> Down firing the subs is nice because they can load off the floor. Assuming you have decent space between floor and sub and it's not just hammering in to the carpet. Other then that you front face the subs which works well but if you have kids or passengers grills are necessary and kinda look ugly .


Yeah, downfiring seems to give a pretty good bang. I was quite pleased with the ability to get 2 12s in that box, downfiring and have clearance.


----------



## billj214

OK great now I have to build another speaker box! 

I did find some threaded nut inserts I can use to keep the speakers from falling out, I know you guys probably all use these! Link 

I'm using Punch P1's currently which require .56 cuft and the box is only under the long seat, not full length. (5" to 8") (12"x 36" long) which interior space wise is .5 cuft. I would have to convert to full length box and I assume porting sub box is not recommended?


----------



## valow

billj214 said:


> OK great now I have to build another speaker box!
> 
> I did find some threaded nut inserts I can use to keep the speakers from falling out, I know you guys probably all use these! Link
> 
> I'm using Punch P1's currently which require .56 cuft and the box is only under the long seat, not full length. (5" to 8") (12"x 36" long) which interior space wise is .5 cuft. I would have to convert to full length box and I assume porting sub box is not recommended?


You certainly can port it, but your cubic footage required will shoot up. I did 12" shallows and they required .8 cu ft. sealed. I got it to work with a wedge style. 5.5" in the rear tall, 6.5" in the front tall and I think 27" wide by 14" deep. I just put risers on the sides to lift it up for clearance.


----------



## valow

wroberts said:


> If anyone has a 2014 model Supercrew with power rear window that's made an amplifier rack for the back wall, could I have the measurements for the rack? Mine got a 3 day extension at the shop and I'm off work until Friday and I'm absolutely squirming to work on SOMETHING.... Thanks in advance


Did you get a rack made? Were the measurements ok?


----------



## billj214

Pic suggests it has sub output and optional toslink! 










Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

Pic is 100% accurate. I went optical. $4 15' TOS link cable off of monoprice later, and I was set.


----------



## billj214

OK I found the toslink option - here

Thanks!


----------



## optimaprime

valow said:


> Yeah, downfiring seems to give a pretty good bang. I was quite pleased with the ability to get 2 12s in that box, downfiring and have clearance.


Man there's company out there I think of name but they make box that fires in to bottom of seats for 3 of what ever you want 8,10,12. But I believe it sound like poo because you be loading off of foam.


----------



## optimaprime

billj214 said:


> OK I found the toslink option - here
> 
> Thanks!


If you go toslink can keep factory volume control ? I can't seem find that in instructions. Mine should be here tomorrow but didn't get the toslink yet.


----------



## valow

Yep, factory volume works the same.


----------



## billj214

I'm testing mine now but no sound output, manual suggests turning off vehicle for 10 mins so we will see! 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

What are you going optical out to?


----------



## billj214

OK everything works, staring to tune DSP. Turns out the factory amp has to stay connected or nothing will work. 

I'm using first four channels, couldn't get a sub signal from sub out. May do toslink later.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

Wait the amp had to stay connected to what? The PAC piece should have it completely bypassed? That's really odd.


----------



## billj214

Yeah I said the same thing but it's still in the mix or you lose audio output. 

All done programming DSP, I was able to achieve a flat response with a little low in the 15-20khz but that could be my speaker setup. Overall it's a 100% improvement from stock amp output to DSP, I was incapable of tuning a flat response. 

Note: without tuning DSP you will be running high a little in the 500-5000khz range but still sounded good, you can see where my EQ ended up from factory setup, good to have a DSP. I will try to post actual analyzer playing white noise, it's flat as can be. 

Adding PIC of final EQ.










Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

That's really interesting. Thanks for sharing. The one thing I'm not a huge fan of is that the JL TwK won't show me response. At least I haven't seen or found a way to do it so seeing this is hugely helpful. I'm doing a full retune tonight. I'll most likely start from scratch and tune from the ground up after seeing this. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## FordEscape

valow said:


> Wait the amp had to stay connected to what? The PAC piece should have it completely bypassed? That's really odd.





billj214 said:


> Yeah I said the same thing but it's still in the mix or you lose audio output....


That's a surprise and a bummer. Makes me wonder exactly the role of the Sony amp "in the mix" of the audio chain when using the PAC module, what the PAC module is _really_ doing, and if the Sony amp has _any_ impact at all on the audio signal when using the PAC module?  

With that new info, why not go with the 'FORScan reprogramming + minor rewire' approach which seems to offer the same advantages for adding aftermarket DSP/amps _without_ requiring the OEM Sony amp to remain in place at all (and costs a lot less)?

Now more than ever I wish someone would go to the effort to 'scope the characteristics of the PAC line-level outputs in comparison to the 'reprogram + rewire' line-level outputs. OR, at least use FORScan to look at the ACM & APIM parameters 727-01-01, 727-01-02 and 7D0-01-01 before and after the PAC module installation to see if those were changed by the process. 

Yeah, as a matter of 'best practice' I just don't care to have anything that's not necessary in the 'audio chain'.

Thoughts?


----------



## billj214

Had the same thoughts, I need put in a call to PAC in California. I will say the by disconnecting the amp disabled e911 as well as not having volume control on screen or sound output. My guess now is this box is another simple way of telling the head unit to go flat. Its installed and sounds good so no looking back now! 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## FordEscape

billj214 said:


> I will say the by disconnecting the amp disabled e911 as well as not having volume control on screen or sound output. My guess now is this box is another simple way of telling the head unit to go flat.


Hmmm, not so sure that follows since, when configured for the Sony DSP/amp, the ACM (HU) output is _already_ 'flat' and low-level; it just isn't volume controlled within the ACM (it's a nominal 'constant level' output). 'System volume', along with the other EQ and coordinated 'SYNC' features is handled between the APIM and the Sony DSP/amp. Very curious and now wondering if the PAC approach takes advantage of _any_ of the OEM module re-programming possibilities.

Your system and your project of course, but _*I *_wouldn't be able to resist trying the alternate approach, especially since it has no monetary cost - system setup and effort is but a moment compared to the years of listening enjoyment to follow. None of this is anything other than easily reversible. I'm sure not gonna keep using a widget I bought if I find another better solution at no cost.

I guess I'm finally getting to be a 'true' DIYMA'er .... if there's a chance of turning 'good' to 'better' with a little time/effort and not much (or no) money, I'm gonna give it a whirl .... or maybe just the perspective of an always curious, always driven to 'optimize', 60+ yo retired engineer that still mightily digs his tunes.

 :laugh:

I've also done enough re-programming of my car's systems with FORScan to be very comfortable with that .... perhaps that's a factor, too.


----------



## LostnEye

Interesting development. I was following and deciding between the PAC, Forscan and wiring, or waiting for the new RF DSR1 to come out for my Taurus. I really wanted to ditch the Sony amp to try and save weight where I can and don't see the point of the PAC if you have to maintain the Sony amp.


----------



## valow

billj214 said:


> Had the same thoughts, I need put in a call to PAC in California. I will say the by disconnecting the amp disabled e911 as well as not having volume control on screen or sound output. My guess now is this box is another simple way of telling the head unit to go flat. Its installed and sounds good so no looking back now!
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


Did you call PAC? What did they happen to say?


----------



## billj214

valow said:


> Did you call PAC? What did they happen to say?


OK so here are the answers from PAC:

- AMPRO AP4-FD21 does all the audio and does not use the Sony amp.
- Sony amp is connected for the purpose of using fade/balance/treble and from what I found also e-911. 
- Subwoofer output does not work when connected to DSP, I had to use rear instead but PAC is working on the problem, I plan on using dipswitch to test at 5v output and see if Helix DSP will see signal. 
- I have confirmed the output signal is far superior to the Sony system but have not tested the Forscan ACM program. 


Ill keep ya posted.


----------



## FordEscape

billj214 said:


> OK so here are the answers from PAC:
> 
> - AMPRO AP4-FD21 does all the audio and does not use the Sony amp.
> - Sony amp is connected for the purpose of using fade/balance/treble and from what I found also e-911....


So that indicates that while PAC may be bypassing the 'amplifier' section of the Sony DSP/amp module, it's still relying on the DSP section for certain functions. Not sure there's enough info there to know if that's only in the MS BUS realm or maybe also in the audio signal realm (or even if the two can be fully separated).

EDIT - removed moot point.


----------



## billj214

FordEscape said:


> So that indicates that while PAC may be bypassing the 'amplifier' section of the Sony DSP/amp module, it's still relying on the DSP section for certain functions. Not sure there's enough info there to know if that's only in the MS BUS realm or maybe also in the audio signal realm (or even if the two can be fully separated).
> 
> Exactly what does that mean? Did you measure electrical signal characteristics at the outputs (not the speakers/environment with a mic) and exactly what was "superior" about the characteristics?
> 
> That'd be an interesting test since you would necessarily be comparing a full-range output signal from the PAC module front channels to a set of filtered (by the DSP) outputs for the separate tweeter/woofer front channels (and maybe the sub channel) from the Sony amp with everything set 'flat' on the ACM.
> 
> I'm NOT calling 'bs', I AM asking for sufficient info to give your assessment context and value, with no offense intended. Thanks in advance for your understanding and huge thanks for all the info you're gathering and sharing.


Fordescape - I'm no expert, just my opinion that our Sony system sucks and a Sony Walkman is "Superior" to the factory system, I don't need electrical signals to tell me what I can see in my DSP and hear in my ears! 

Enjoy!


----------



## FordEscape

billj214 said:


> Fordescape - I'm no expert, just my opinion that our Sony system sucks and a Sony Walkman is "Superior" to the factory system, I don't need electrical signals to tell me what I can see in my DSP and hear in my ears!


Fair enough, thank you for that meaningful and valid context.

Please understand, I've no doubt that the Sony system _sound_ can be improved upon nor any doubt that you've accomplished that with the components and tuning you've applied. 

My question, and my sole interest here, is related to learning what 'tool' works _best_ to 'prepare' the OEM HU/ACM "_output signal_" for input to other aftermarket improvements (DSP/amps/speakers). HU "output signal" having specific meaning in our hobby and being but one piece in the chain of things producing the _sound_ the total system delivers in a given environment. 

At the moment the choices seem to be the new PAC module or the reprogramming approach and I'm unapologetically focused on the pros and cons of those options. IMHO that has _universal application_ for all Ford modifiers regardless of 'expertise' or how they choose to build-out and tune their system.

I do sincerely apologize if my question offended you in any way, and again appreciate _all_ the information you are sharing here.


----------



## billj214

No offense, I was trying to be funny! Honestly the solutions we have available in order to keep the factory system are limited, I have seen forums which tested signals from factory output with and without Forscan modification, not so good.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## FordEscape

Cool, all is good.

Yeah, I think the 'commercially' reprogrammed ACM I tested awhile back had what we now know as the 'FORScan reprogramming' but it's on my do-list to use FORScan to reprogram my own ACM and run a more rigorous test routine with the o-scope and document those findings.

I think lexingtonian is planning to do the same with his Explorer ACM along with testing the PAC output option.

We are both struggling to find the opportune time for those efforts.


----------



## MacLeod

FordEscape said:


> Cool, all is good.
> 
> Yeah, I think the 'commercially' reprogrammed ACM I tested awhile back had what we now know as the 'FORScan reprogramming' but it's on my do-list to use FORScan to reprogram my own ACM and run a more rigorous test routine with the o-scope and document those findings.
> 
> I think lexingtonian is planning to do the same with his Explorer ACM along with testing the PAC output option.
> 
> We are both struggling to find the opportune time for those efforts.


OK, so I posted this question on another thread but I've been looking into this Forscan option and it seems to be something I might want. I'm thinking since I've already bought the Fix and the mod of turning the speaker outputs to low level still results in hiss, I could use the mod to keep the speakers at high level but defeat the EQ/processing of the ACM, then run the speaker wires to the Fix. This way I would be using the Fix to boost the signal and run it optically to the Twk which should result in virtually zero hiss.

That sound like it makes sense? I know I could go with low level outputs but I'm worried about too high a noise floor. The MECA judging disc has a lot of quiet parts and I don't need a lot of hiss to deal with.

Also, the "reprogrammed ACM" that you used in those graphs earlier, was that reprogramming done with this Forscan mod or was that something different? I guess that's where I'm not sure. If your reprogrammed ACM you got from Jesse was just him doing this Forscan mod for you then we know that it doesn't actually defeat the EQ.

Another question, this line from the Fusion forum:


> ... this wasn't/isn't a free mod, which is why it isn't in FORScan. That being said, it can be enabled with FORScan versus having to send out your ACM or finding a Ford dealership with IDS. It will not be shared/made public. This code change for your ACM would need to be purchased like any other vehicle mod.


WTF?? OK, I thought all you need was an OBDLink tool and Forscan. Now this post is saying you have to buy some code to enable this option? That makes no sense.


----------



## dawaro

MacLeod said:


> Also, the "reprogrammed ACM" that you used in those graphs earlier, was that reprogramming done with this Forscan mod or was that something different? I guess that's where I'm not sure. If your reprogrammed ACM you got from Jesse was just him doing this Forscan mod for you then we know that it doesn't actually defeat the EQ.
> 
> Another question, this line from the Fusion forum:
> 
> 
> WTF?? OK, I thought all you need was an OBDLink tool and Forscan. Now this post is saying you have to buy some code to enable this option? That makes no sense.


I am fairly confident that the mods Jesse was doing was with different software since Forscan didnt offer that option at the time. I still have the emails where I discussed this with the Forscan folks and I have the first beta version were they enabled access to the ACM. They sent me a modified version of the software so I could make changes but I never got around to doing it. The guys over at the F150 forum took over from there and they are the ones that are responsible for sharing their results and making the information public.


----------



## FordEscape

MacLeod said:


> Another question, this line from the Fusion forum:
> 
> _"... this wasn't/isn't a free mod, which is why it isn't in FORScan. That being said, it can be enabled with FORScan versus having to send out your ACM or finding a Ford dealership with IDS. It will not be shared/made public. This code change for your ACM would need to be purchased like any other vehicle mod." _
> 
> WTF?? OK, I thought all you need was an OBDLink tool and Forscan. Now this post is saying you have to buy some code to enable this option? That makes no sense.


Let's start with that clip - a perfect example of the _importance of context _when gleaning information from the interweb. Note the date of the original post; be aware of when the info on APIM/ACM reprogramming code became 'generally available on the interweb' as opposed to known only to a few folks who did early research/ reverse engineering/ accessing of 'insider info' or whatever they did to get the needed knowledge _before_ it was posted on interweb forums (and only made that info available as a service for a price). Things have changed a lot in the last 12 months on this front. Old news is, well, old news. 

>>>>>

As far as the rest:

1. I don't know what tool was used to reprogram the ACM I purchased long before the info was 'generally available on the interweb'. Could have been IDS, FORScan or any of several other interface+software tools that can be used to upload revised hex code to Ford MS CAN modules. IMHO it doesn't matter what tool is used to manipulate digits in a programmable chip, they all do the same thing in that regard - it's all 'naughts-and-ones" and there were certainly tools to do the job before FORScan added that capability.

2. I can't _imagine_ anything was done to the ACM I bought _other_ than reprogramming one or more of the hex code parameters now widely known to effect different APIM/ACM output configurations. I don't imagine/ believe/ accept that any of these 'commercial providers' of modified OEM modules and programming dongles is or ever was doing anything other than utilizing options built into the firmware by Ford. But, my imagination may be limited. 

3. Very important - I do not _know_ exactly what _combination_ of parameters was reprogrammed in the ACM I tested. I didn't have the wherewithal or tools at that time to read or interpret the APIM/ACM MS CAN code in that unit. I don't _know_ that the code was changed that is now widely _purported_ to result in 'flat' output. 

4. I've not found _any_ 'published' instrumented test documentation by _anyone_ else aimed at actually _measuring_ the output characteristics of an ACM modified commercially or by the now known FORScan method. That's very different from measurements of _system sound_ using a mic and REW or similar environmental acoustic measuring procedures.

Look, I don't assume folks maliciously misrepresent things on the interweb, but I'm burdened with the engineer's curse ..... I want to see well-explained and documented test procedures and results for stuff like this. I understand and accept the tendency for interweb info to be stated in terms suggesting absolute fact when, upon investigation we find they're subjective or lack sufficient 'test controls' to support the specific conclusion suggested (e.g. 'total system sound measurements' or listening evaluation vs 'output signal measurements' at a specific component in the system). 

I tried hard to be explicit about the unit I had and the tools/methodology used in my posts about testing that reprogrammed ACM so like-minded folks could draw _their own _conclusions about the data I presented. See http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rogrammed-ford-head-unit-acm.html#post3668290

I've not done any testing aimed at quantifying the 'noise floor' or 'hiss' of anything. Obviously, if _you_ hear it that's what matters. But as you surely know, there's lots of possible sources for 'hiss' and lots of components in the audio chain that can add to the noise floor. As you can imagine from the above I'd never assume any particular source of such artifacts, or make any statement about their source, absent experimentation to isolate / identify the true source. In other words, go through pretty much all the stuff one must do if you h*ear* those problems in a particular system and are driven to solve them. I can say that _my aging ears_, have not detected an objectionable hiss or noise in any of _my_ system configurations - that's obviously a purely subjective conclusion, but it IMHO reasonably explains why I've not gone looking for a source or solution of a problem I can't hear. 

As mentioned previously I hope to soon go through another even more rigorous set of tests to measure and document the effects of the various FORScan-based tweaks on my ACM. Till then, there's nothing *I* can say about the efficacy or 'true effects' of those tweaks.

Only you can decide if any of that means squat for your system, your car, and your ears. I'll readily agree with anyone who says: "All this test and quantification stuff means nothing if your system makes you happy."


----------



## billj214

I purchased a cable from http://www.obdinnovations.com/, it has a mscan switch to allow access to APM. Forscan will give you two months free when you sign up, so far the only changes I made using cable is remove speed limiter. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## billj214

Fordescape, using my phone a lot to keep up so short answers to questions. Check this link for more info... Hope this helps.

http://www.fordraptorforum.com/showthread.php?t=37480

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## MacLeod

dawaro said:


> I am fairly confident that the mods Jesse was doing was with different software since Forscan didnt offer that option at the time. I still have the emails where I discussed this with the Forscan folks and I have the first beta version were they enabled access to the ACM. They sent me a modified version of the software so I could make changes but I never got around to doing it. The guys over at the F150 forum took over from there and they are the ones that are responsible for sharing their results and making the information public.


Now that makes sense. Thanks! 



FordEscape said:


> Let's start with that clip - a perfect example of the _importance of context _when gleaning information from the interweb. Note the date of the original post; be aware of when the info on APIM/ACM reprogramming code became 'generally available on the interweb' as opposed to known only to a few folks who did early research/ reverse engineering/ accessing of 'insider info' or whatever they did to get the needed knowledge _before_ it was posted on interweb forums (and only made that info available as a service for a price). Things have changed a lot in the last 12 months on this front. Old news is, well, old news.
> 
> >>>>>


Ah, so when I find some information that is almost a year old, I should just assume that the opposite of that information is now true and shouldn't trouble people by asking about it? Gotcha. :laugh:



> As far as the rest:
> 
> 1. I don't know what tool was used to reprogram the ACM I purchased long before the info was 'generally available on the interweb'. Could have been IDS, FORScan or any of several other interface+software tools that can be used to upload revised hex code to Ford MS CAN modules. IMHO it doesn't matter what tool is used to manipulate digits in a programmable chip, they all do the same thing in that regard - it's all 'naughts-and-ones" and there were certainly tools to do the job before FORScan added that capability.


Unless the software he was using didn't have the option/capability of deactivating the volume dependent EQ kinda like how the early Forscan software did not as I just learned from the above post. That was why I was asking. If he was using some self written or early beta type of software, it might only had the ability to switch the outputs from active to passive and could not access the EQ function which would explain why that EQ'ing was showing up in your graphs. If that was the case and since the Forscan software does seem to have that ability, then maybe I'm worrying about that volume dependent EQ for no reason. That's what I was getting at. 



> I've not done any testing aimed at quantifying the 'noise floor' or 'hiss' of anything. Obviously, if you hear it that's what matters. But as you surely know, there's lots of possible sources for 'hiss' and lots of components in the audio chain that can add to the noise floor. As you can imagine from the above I'd never assume any particular source of such artifacts, or make any statement about their source, absent experimentation to isolate / identify the true source. In other words, go through pretty much all the stuff one must do if you hear those problems in a particular system and are driven to solve them. I can say that my aging ears, have not detected an objectionable hiss or noise in any of my system configurations - that's obviously a purely subjective conclusion, but it IMHO reasonably explains why I've not gone looking for a source or solution of a problem I can't hear.


Well that's still something I'm going to be concerned about. I'm planning this build to be a SQ competition system which uses lots of quiet tracks to judge with in a vehicle in a quiet area with the engine off. The steady background hiss that is commonplace with LOC's is something I'm trying to avoid. If I wasn't I'd slap this mod in there and solder in some RCA's and be done with it. So I'm not being picky for the sake of being picky....that's what my wife does. Sitting there listening to Rebecca Pidgeon's soft voice and a smooth stand up bass lightly being plucked in the background all while HISSSSSSSSSSSSS is being played through as well ain't an option. A friend of mine dealt with that many years ago when he was forced to compete with the stock head unit with the simple solution of using massive amps at around 300 watts per driver then dropping the gains to the lowest setting. 

That's the irritable thing with SQ competitions - you spend more time trying to solve tiny little problems like that. They used to count off for turn on/off pops which a LOT of equipment has. That was always fun trying to come up with the right concoction of resistors, capacitors, diodes and other witchcraft to combat that problem. Ah the things we do for 12" plastic trophies.


----------



## FordEscape

billj214 said:


> Fordescape, using my phone a lot to keep up so short answers to questions. Check this link for more info... Hope this helps.
> 
> Your Raptors Audio System - FORD RAPTOR FORUM - Ford SVT Raptor Forums - Ford Raptor


Thanks, interesting thread there.

No question that, as shown by aka nosbusa's spectrum analysis of the OEM DSP/amp outputs in post #2 and #4, the OEM DSP/amp outputs have some seriously complex EQ applied. That certainly made it challenging for system improvements using that as an input source for aftermarket components as he makes clear his follow-up discussions. 

As far as I can tell, all of that thread up to your 2/22/17 post #100 is predicated on using the unmodified OEM DSP/amp outputs as the source for input to an aftermarket DSP (or Cleansweep-type 'output conditioner'). Thank goodness we now have things like the PAC module and FORScan reprogramming to provide some hopefully much 'flatter' and thereby easier to work with OEM system outputs to serve as inputs for our DSP/amp improvements. No question that the less EQ applied to the source outputs, the easier it is to use an aftermarket DSP to re-EQ ("tune") the system for improved SQ.

Post #32 in that thread by Spyders03 showing mic'd measurements in the truck are equally revealing regards the (poor) SQ delivered by the OEM system and IMHO offers some reasonable explanation of why Ford may have 'shaped' the DSP/amp output the way they did (less to do with optimum SQ, more to do with protecting speakers). Obviously that's a compromise we'd like to avoid.

I don't think anyone (certainly not me) argues that there isn't room for huge improvement of the OEM SQ. And it seems pretty well accepted that the less EQ'd the output feeding an aftermarket DSP, the easier it is to achieve those SQ improvements with 'better' components and 'better' system tuning. Now we're just trying to ID which of the current tools gives us the 'least EQ'd' system output to feed to our chosen aftermarket DSP so we can then tune that optimally for our system.


----------



## FordEscape

MacLeod said:


> Ah, so when I find some information that is almost a year old, I should just assume that the opposite of that information is now true and shouldn't trouble people by asking about it? Gotcha. :laugh::


Lol, I asked for that, didn't I? Had it coming anyway.  



MacLeod said:


> Unless the software he was using didn't have the option/capability of deactivating the volume dependent EQ kinda like how the early Forscan software did not as I just learned from the above post. That was why I was asking. If he was using some self written or early beta type of software, it might only had the ability to switch the outputs from active to passive and could not access the EQ function which would explain why that EQ'ing was showing up in your graphs. If that was the case and since the Forscan software does seem to have that ability, then maybe I'm worrying about that volume dependent EQ for no reason. That's what I was getting at.


Absolutely agree, whether software limitation or knowledge limitation (or neither!), unfortunately I just don't know what he did. That's why I, like you, I'm interested to see what comes from testing an ACM modified using the latest info we have about FORScan reprogramming. I won't hazard a guess about how that will compare to the 'Jesse reprogrammed ACM' result. And hoping someone can do similar testing of the PAC output so we can judge the pros and cons of each option for ourselves.



MacLeod said:


> Well that's still something I'm going to be concerned about. I'm planning this build to be a SQ competition system which uses lots of quiet tracks to judge with in a vehicle in a quiet area with the engine off. The steady background hiss that is commonplace with LOC's is something I'm trying to avoid. *.....*


Hey, I get it, your competition interests mean you _must_ chase-down every little detail that detracts from optimum SQ .... you and those that judge your system are the most critical listeners around and the tunes used in competition are designed to reveal every type of flaw as well as highlight all the great SQ your system can deliver. I'm just not in a position to offer info helpful to you about the hisss/noise floor potential being discussed. I'm not sure if it's a curse or a blessing that I lack the trained ear and mind to listen as critically as you must. :laugh:

I've only visited one SQ competition and was given the opportunity to sit and listen in a couple of friendly competitor's cars ..... no idea how those ranked in the end but both were briefly 'eye and ear opening' experiences for me.


----------



## MacLeod

FordEscape said:


> Lol, I asked for that, didn't I? Had it coming anyway.


Actually we're even after I asked you a bunch of questions a couple pages back about the Helix DSP swearing there was no information available and you pointed out it was on like page 1 of the instruction manual. Hahaha! 

So what would be involved in me testing the outputs of the factory speaker wires after changing things in Forscan? The OBDLink tool should be here Monday and I could yank out the ACM Monday night and test it but I don't know what I'd need. All I've got is a laptop, REW and miniDSP USB mic. I'm assuming I'd plug the newly converted RCA's into something then that into the laptop maybe? I'd love to find out and post my findings but don't know how to go about it.


----------



## Lexingtonian

Finally got the time to test and record Oscilloscope Videos showing unclipped voltage and spectrum analysis for the following scenarios..


Non Variable Output (Stock) Performance
PAC AP4-FD21 Performance
Variable Line Out (Forscan Hack) Performance

I know many of you have been waiting for this, so here ya go -
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/4521138-post20.html


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## FordEscape

*^^^^*Great info there, thanks for the effort



_aside - seems that a page of ~4 posts has (temporarily?) disappeared here, it's been a whacky week on this forum._


----------



## valow

Someone keep me sane - this JL TwK is driving me bat **** crazy while trying to tune it from REW. I'm "trying" to use a 1/12 RTA octave, but I'm thinking I might need to shrink that down to 1/3 or even 1/6 to actually work within a 10 band PEQ. Thoughts?

Edit, btw the Q for each band defaults at 1.41, but will go from .26 to 10.

Thanks


----------



## optimaprime

Lexingtonian said:


> Finally got the time to test and record Oscilloscope Videos showing unclipped voltage and spectrum analysis for the following scenarios..
> 
> 
> Non Variable Output (Stock) Performance
> PAC AP4-FD21 Performance
> Variable Line Out (Forscan Hack) Performance
> 
> I know many of you have been waiting for this, so here ya go -
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/4521138-post20.html


I can't watch for videos for reasons out of my control . So what does your findings mean for 2013 /2014 Ford Sony guys that got PAC piece ?


----------



## Lexingtonian

optimaprime said:


> I can't watch for videos for reasons out of my control . So what does your findings mean for 2013 /2014 Ford Sony guys that got PAC piece ?


It means that you don't need anything to fix the signal coming from the PAC unit. It's flat as a pancake down to about 50 hz. It also means you cant remove the Sony Amp (they are dependent on one another for some reason). In my world one may be better off doing the Forscan hack to enable variable line out and canning the PAC unit altogether. I plan on doing a full Sony amp delete so I'm going to do Variable Line Out instead of the PAC Unit -


----------



## FordEscape

optimaprime said:


> I can't watch for videos for reasons out of my control . So what does your findings mean for 2013 /2014 Ford Sony guys that got PAC piece ?


The links in this thread are not 'active' - did you jump the linked post in his 'build thread' and try the video links there?

In any case ..... IMHO the data shows that the SQ-related results using the PAC module and the FORScan reprogramming approach are for all intents identical (and very good for output to an aftermarket DSP).

So, IMHO, that means Sony system owners have some choices that provide equal 'audio quality' results but differ in terms of cost, 'installation logistics' and 'residual hardware'. 

Other than cost of the PAC module, the 'biggest' difference to me being that the PAC approach requires the Sony DSP/amp module to remain in place (as we've learned for others above) while the FORScan reprogramming with CANBUS re-wire approach allows that module to be completely removed from the vehicle. That may or may not be significant to each owner.

IMHO the installation procedure, while different between the two, is about a wash in terms of difficulty for most DIYMA-ers (three's only two wires that need 'redirecting' of the CANBUS signal to allow removal of the OEM DSP module using the FORScan approach).

EDIT - woops, typing when the previous reply was posted - I think we're saying the same thing in terms of bottom line.... if ya got the PAC module you've got good Signal Quality outputs; if ya want to spend the ~$200 it costs on something else in your system you can get the same result SQ-wise using the FORScan approach without the PAC module (and remove the OEM DSP to boot).


----------



## neuspeedescort

so will the audio out of the PAC unit not work at all if the Sony amp is not installed?
i guess i am missing the point at which the Sony is needed if the PAC unit is to give flat signal out, remote line, and rca's for f/r/s.
forgive me if i am missing something in the above posts.


----------



## FordEscape

neuspeedescort said:


> so will the audio out of the PAC unit not work at all if the Sony amp is not installed?
> i guess i am missing the point at which the Sony is needed if the PAC unit is to give flat signal out, remote line, and rca's for f/r/s.
> forgive me if i am missing something in the above posts.


Start reading at post #353 above. Billj214 has shared info on that issue in several posts including info he got from PAC about it - good stuff there.


----------



## optimaprime

FordEscape said:


> The links in this thread are not 'active' - did you jump the linked post in his 'build thread' and try the video links there?
> 
> In any case ..... IMHO the data shows that the SQ-related results using the PAC module and the FORScan reprogramming approach are for all intents identical (and very good for output to an aftermarket DSP).
> 
> So, IMHO, that means Sony system owners have some choices that provide equal 'audio quality' results but differ in terms of cost, 'installation logistics' and 'residual hardware'.
> 
> Other than cost of the PAC module, the 'biggest' difference to me being that the PAC approach requires the Sony DSP/amp module to remain in place (as we've learned for others above) while the FORScan reprogramming with CANBUS re-wire approach allows that module to be completely removed from the vehicle. That may or may not be significant to each owner.
> 
> IMHO the installation procedure, while different between the two, is about a wash in terms of difficulty for most DIYMA-ers (three's only two wires that need 'redirecting' of the CANBUS signal to allow removal of the OEM DSP module using the FORScan approach).
> 
> EDIT - woops, typing when the previous reply was posted - I think we're saying the same thing in terms of bottom line.... if ya got the PAC module you've got good Signal Quality outputs; if ya want to spend the ~$200 it costs on something else in your system you can get the same result SQ-wise using the FORScan approach without the PAC module (and remove the OEM DSP to boot).


Thanks man !! I get decent price on PAC module and glad both result are same and just depends on what avenue you gonna down. I'll try the videos again just for funnies . You made them night as well learn something


----------



## FordEscape

optimaprime said:


> .... You made them night as well learn something


you quoted me, so just to be clear .... 

No, no, all the credit for the videos and work behind them goes to *Lexingtonian*, not me. And yes, they're worth watching for sure.


----------



## James Cole

optimaprime said:


> Thanks man !! I get decent price on PAC module and glad both result are same and just depends on what avenue you gonna down. I'll try the videos again just for funnies . You made them night as well learn something



IMHO its very clear which one is the best option: ACM MOD. 

You get a cleaner signal + you get the Sony crap out which only will only draw power from your vehicle and take precious space where you could mount your amps like I did:


----------



## optimaprime

FordEscape said:


> you quoted me, so just to be clear ....
> 
> No, no, all the credit for the videos and work behind them goes to *Lexingtonian*, not me. And yes, they're worth watching for sure.


My bad man !! Thanks lexingtonian and very body for helping with this poopy Sony system!


----------



## valow

Any REW wizards out there? This is the front left Mid - it seems awfully noisy to me, and it's nearly impossible to get it to flatten out. Am I imagining something, or is something wrong?

This is a pink noise sweep, 1/12 octave and my mic (MiniDSP UMIK-1) has the volume all the way up, and it is using a cal file. Any insight would be great. I get a much cleaner reading off of my tweeters, rear doors and subs.


----------



## MacLeod

Try using a pink noise track instead of a sweep. I find those are a little more accurate because all the frequencies are playing at once which is more like when music is playing. And you'll never get a totally flat response and honestly you don't want one. MECA does an RTA competition where the goal is to get the response as flat as possible. These curved are never the ones that sound best tho. The front left will usually be the hardest one to get right because it's almost 90 degrees off axis.



valow said:


> Someone keep me sane - this JL TwK is driving me bat **** crazy while trying to tune it from REW. I'm "trying" to use a 1/12 RTA octave, but I'm thinking I might need to shrink that down to 1/3 or even 1/6 to actually work within a 10 band PEQ. Thoughts?
> 
> Edit, btw the Q for each band defaults at 1.41, but will go from .26 to 10.
> 
> Thanks


Definitely use the 1/3 octave. That'll be easier to find the trouble spots and you can address them with the EQ. The Q will depend on what you need. If you have a wife area you need to cut usually the 160-315 range, you can select a wider Q and lower them all. Then use a tighter one when you just need a small area cut like 800-1K.


----------



## valow

I've been using pink noise. When I said sweep I meant I am going from ear to ear. I believe that driver is at least following the right curve you want for a mid. I'm just having a hard time getting the big peaks out. I'll stop trying to be so anal with it and see how it turns out. Thanks a ton.


----------



## wroberts

Here's my nearly completed project. Getting my sub box tomorrow then I will put my faceplate back on to cover the ragged edges


----------



## optimaprime

valow said:


> I've been using pink noise. When I said sweep I meant I am going from ear to ear. I believe that driver is at least following the right curve you want for a mid. I'm just having a hard time getting the big peaks out. I'll stop trying to be so anal with it and see how it turns out. Thanks a ton.


Curious to see what happens I have few and totally new at using it and dsp. I ran helix for couple months mainly flat. Have t touched since then. Curious if your doors are sealed and deaden . I will using mini dsp mic with rew .


----------



## optimaprime

Amp Install looks good I'll be something similar with pdxv9.


----------



## valow

Doors are not deadened. One thing to consider the JL TwK only had a 10 band parametric. So that means I have to get my poop in a group when I dial in bands and the Q.


----------



## billj214

Lexingtonian said:


> Finally got the time to test and record Oscilloscope Videos showing unclipped voltage and spectrum analysis for the following scenarios..
> 
> 
> Non Variable Output (Stock) Performance
> PAC AP4-FD21 Performance
> Variable Line Out (Forscan Hack) Performance
> 
> I know many of you have been waiting for this, so here ya go -
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/4521138-post20.html


Lexington, thanks for your help finalizing the signal debate, I was hoping diyma users would provide the definitive answers as you did. 

Valow now that we put that question to rest, let's get more pics and details of your build! ?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

billj214 said:


> Lexington, thanks for your help finalizing the signal debate, I was hoping diyma users would provide the definitive answers as you did.
> 
> Valow now that we put that question to rest, let's get more pics and details of your build!
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk




Ok. Ok. Let me do that. I'm more than happy to do so. Next eeekend I'll be doing 0awg to a distri block then moving an amp. Stand by. You all are awesome by the way. Such a great thread.


----------



## MacLeod

Pulled these quotes from Lexingtonian's build thread cause I've gone off topic enough there and I don't want to crap up his build thread any further.



Lexingtonian said:


> So glad this helped you. I can, however not thank FordEscape enough, he was the one the ultimately flicked the domino on this whole Oscilloscoping the Variable Output caper. Side note, I didn't want to run the FIX type stuff, I just hate having complexity in my system. Another side note, in my Original Post on Page 1 I link to an ODB2 tool that works with Forscan that's less than $30 on amazon. I'd save the $50 bucks if it were me (if you haven't pulled the trigger already)
> 
> I do get to Chatt from time to time. Might just take you up on the offer!


Already pulled the trigger on the bluetooth model and it showed up today. I kinda like the bluetooth option so it's all good. I agree with you on running the Fix. I had no idea this option existed or how good it was and thought I was stuck running some form of LOC and the Fix is the best on the market by a mile IMO. I'll hang onto it though. Got it for under $300 at my local shop so I'm not out a huge amount and you never know, I might need it at some point.



FordEscape said:


> Love it, the champagne clip you posted is about how I feel, too :laugh:
> 
> I've of course already got 16ga for carrying my speaker level signals running from my ACM to the cargo area where my MS-8 is stashed. Monoprice 4-wire cables, terminated at strips in the amp-bay with short 'jumpers' to the MS-8. I'm hoping with the change to low-level I can keep using those without picking-up any noise - just make up new RCA jumpers from the terminal strip to the MS-8.
> 
> We'll see .... I'll disassemble the console and pull the rear seat (ugh) again if I must run all the way with the shielded Canare mic cable I've used for making my RCA interconnects. Either way, can't complain given what we're getting here.


I was wondering this same thing. I bought some Stinger SpeedWire because it's so easy to use and hook up since everything is in one bundle. I was considering just soldering the speaker wires from the ACM there behind the dash and then soldering the RCA end caps onto the ends of the speaker wires at the DSP in the back of the truck. The only way I could see that not working is picking up induced noise since they wouldn't be twisted or shielded (althought I've never been a big fan of shielding). I was thinking though that the possibility of picking up any excess noise from the long run would be offset by only having 1 connection of RCA's as opposed to having speaker wires connecting to RCA female ends, connected to male ends then connected to female ends at the DSP. Just having the one connection to RCA plugs at the DSP should make for a cleaner signal I would think. Thoughts? 

The Twk only needs 2 channels of input and I can route everything out from there so I could use the Speedwire for the output signal and then the return line to the front speakers. That would be so nice and convenient. I'm using a Parrot wiring harness which has a fused power wire that I can run to the Twk. Everything would be in that one bundle.

**edit**

Well hell, didn't know you had to join a forum and wait to get approved in order to get a license to use Forscan. Not a big deal but just something to be aware of when you first fire this thing up and it tells you you need some special license.


----------



## valow

MacLeod said:


> Pulled these quotes from Lexingtonian's build thread cause I've gone off topic enough there and I don't want to crap up his build thread any further.
> 
> 
> 
> Already pulled the trigger on the bluetooth model and it showed up today. I kinda like the bluetooth option so it's all good. I agree with you on running the Fix. I had no idea this option existed or how good it was and thought I was stuck running some form of LOC and the Fix is the best on the market by a mile IMO. I'll hang onto it though. Got it for under $300 at my local shop so I'm not out a huge amount and you never know, I might need it at some point.
> 
> 
> 
> I was wondering this same thing. I bought some Stinger SpeedWire because it's so easy to use and hook up since everything is in one bundle. I was considering just soldering the speaker wires from the ACM there behind the dash and then soldering the RCA end caps onto the ends of the speaker wires at the DSP in the back of the truck. The only way I could see that not working is picking up induced noise since they wouldn't be twisted or shielded (althought I've never been a big fan of shielding). I was thinking though that the possibility of picking up any excess noise from the long run would be offset by only having 1 connection of RCA's as opposed to having speaker wires connecting to RCA female ends, connected to male ends then connected to female ends at the DSP. Just having the one connection to RCA plugs at the DSP should make for a cleaner signal I would think. Thoughts?
> 
> The Twk only needs 2 channels of input and I can route everything out from there so I could use the Speedwire for the output signal and then the return line to the front speakers. That would be so nice and convenient. I'm using a Parrot wiring harness which has a fused power wire that I can run to the Twk. Everything would be in that one bundle.
> 
> **edit**
> 
> Well hell, didn't know you had to join a forum and wait to get approved in order to get a license to use Forscan. Not a big deal but just something to be aware of when you first fire this thing up and it tells you you need some special license.


This isn't a build thread so much as a help us all understand and work around the Ford fiasco thread. 

I've been up to my neck in REW and measurement threads. There is some amazing info out there, tools built by Jazzi to provide house curves and Hanatsu did a full on tutorial for measuring and setting/using AutoEQ. If you haven't read through those threads, I would HIGHLY recommend you do, if using REW to tune is your thing. I'm happy to provide the links to the threads if it's of interest.

1/0 AWG and distribution blocks should be here this week. Once I have those, I'll center my power and grounds to them, remount an amp, rerun some speaker wire to the doors, re-gain, then tune like a mad man. I'm extremely excited as this should be the final step. Tuning to a house curve with this much detail, I expect some pretty enlightening results. And having an autoEQ feature that will provide EQ settings for your specific DSP is awesome. I still can't believe that tool is free for how powerful it is.


----------



## valow

I'll add them anyway - VERY helpful.

Jazzi's Tuning Companion plus How To in the thread
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...1-jazzis-tuning-companion-room-eq-wizard.html

Hanatsu's First Timers Guide to Tuning and Measuring - unbelievably detailed post on how to measure and tune with AutoEQ:
First-timers guide to measuring your system - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum 

House Curve Files:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-discussion/259337-rew-house-curve-files.html

There are gobs of links to other threads, topics and items within those two threads. For a novice to some of this such as myself, this information was invaluable.

Edit: Added one more


----------



## optimaprime

Almost to much info. It hurts the head


----------



## valow

optimaprime said:


> Almost to much info. It hurts the head




Yeah man it's a lot of info. Someone was kind enough to compile his posts in to a PDF. I grabbed it but I'll grab the post number or link in the morning. Tapatalk isn't the best tool for that haha. 

The threads themselves are at least a good couple hours of reading then a month of me trying to wrap my pea brain around it.


----------



## valow

Here is the condensed guide - much quicker/easier read. The rest of the forum can be used for insight or finding answers to a question you probably have, that they probably answered (as I've found).

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/4383161-post313.html


----------



## dawaro

For those that have done the ACM mod on the F150 were you able to get both front and rear outputs? Looking at the wiring diagram it appears as the ACM only has L+R outputs. I would like to be able to get both front and rear outputs so I am curious if anyone has been able to achieve this.

I haven't pulled my ACM at this time, I am simply going on the wiring schematics I got from the motorcraft site.


----------



## wroberts

Is anyone using the PAC unit experiencing speaker hiss?


----------



## optimaprime

valow said:


> Here is the condensed guide - much quicker/easier read. The rest of the forum can be used for insight or finding answers to a question you probably have, that they probably answered (as I've found).
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/4383161-post313.html


Thanks buddy more stuff to read up on.


----------



## billj214

wroberts said:


> Is anyone using the PAC unit experiencing speaker hiss?


Clear as a bell, I have my PAC unit volume set to about 25%, my amp gains set about 75% and PAC DSP option turned off. Also I am using Kicker branded RCA cables which are pretty good for not picking up noise, these are run via center console down the middle, out across to door under carpet behind driver seat. 
I've tested my distortion by pausing a track and turning up volume max, no audio of any kind coming from speakers, no hiss, hum or static. 

Do you have subwoofer output working? Using a DSP?


----------



## wroberts

billj214 said:


> Clear as a bell, I have my PAC unit volume set to about 25%, my amp gains set about 75% and PAC DSP option turned off. Also I am using Kicker branded RCA cables which are pretty good for not picking up noise, these are run via center console down the middle, out across to door under carpet behind driver seat.
> I've tested my distortion by pausing a track and turning up volume max, no audio of any kind coming from speakers, no hiss, hum or static.
> 
> Do you have subwoofer output working? Using a DSP?


I have my subwoofer amp hooked up, still waiting on the box. But I have not disabled the DSP, do you have to hook it up to your computer for that? I'm using Knuconcept krystal cable running down the passenger door at the moment


----------



## wroberts

I have my PAC unit mounted on what I think is the heat shield behind the glove box... Could that be causing it??


----------



## wroberts

wroberts said:


> I have my PAC unit mounted on what I think is the heat shield behind the glove box... Could that be causing it??


Just tested that theory... thats not it, but it's definitely between the radio/nav and the PAC unit itself, the hiss dies as soon as I pull the RCA's out of the PAC.


----------



## billj214

wroberts said:


> Just tested that theory... thats not it, but it's definitely between the radio/nav and the PAC unit itself, the hiss dies as soon as I pull the RCA's out of the PAC.


Try routing a cable directly from PAC to amp to bypass original cable, also check your connections are solid, sounds like a grounding issue somewhere. 

Yes the PAC needs a USB connected to PC which allows you to set output levels, this is where you can lower output max volume and increase amp gain in order to minimize distortion. There are plenty of write ups on how to do this buy its fairly simple to set max volume by using your ears and listen for distortion, any competition setup would use an o-scope for this. 

Let us know if you narrow this down, also you can call PAC in California, use google maps to find them which will list their phone number. 

Sent from my SHIELD Tablet K1 using Tapatalk


----------



## wroberts

billj214 said:


> Try routing a cable directly from PAC to amp to bypass original cable, also check your connections are solid, sounds like a grounding issue somewhere.
> 
> Yes the PAC needs a USB connected to PC which allows you to set output levels, this is where you can lower output max volume and increase amp gain in order to minimize distortion.


You can actually do that with the unit and the little fade knob that comes with it. But it doesn't let you mess with the EQ.

I will try to run a cable directly after I get off work, if that doesn't work I'm just gonna follow your lead and run it under the console...


----------



## billj214

wroberts said:


> You can actually do that with the unit and the little fade knob that comes with it. But it doesn't let you mess with the EQ.
> 
> I will try to run a cable directly after I get off work, if that doesn't work I'm just gonna follow your lead and run it under the console...


Volume knob is for sub only, doesn't work on mine for main volume, if it does on yours makes me wonder if there is something I'm missing? 


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## wroberts

theres a button on the back of the module that you can press and it makes the fade knob do other functions such as set the chime volume with 1 click and set the minimum volume (2 clicks) with the car volume on "1" and the knob at maximum impedance.


----------



## Lvrkight6481

Longtime lurker and finally had to chime in to get a question answered. Have 2013 raptor that at first was a nightmare to get audio bliss. Right now have a 360 off of Sony amp to 5 Channel amp. Running active components in the front and rears off Sony amp. And a single sub. Sounds better then the sony crap but was never really completely happy. Then I found this forum. Long post short now thinking the PAC with optical would be my best option now. For those that went down that road does all sync voice, chimes and alerts still work correctly ? Thanks


----------



## robhaynes

valow said:


> That's exactly what JL said. If Phase is off on the Mids, it will cancel the bass out. However, unless the wiring diagram I got out of Ford was wrong, then they are matched since I"ve checked 17 times. I suppose I can swap them on the FiX as a test, recalibrate and see what happens.
> 
> Per JL, I Just connected the subs, recalibrated and tried it again. Definitely a fuller harder sound from the subs so I'm perplexed.
> 
> Edit: Both wiring diagrams I referenced match - so I'm beyond confused.


I know it's been a while since I've posted in this thread (been super busy traveling and training). If you haven't yet you can update the firmware for your FiX and now view the corrected output results in TüN software! If you had any phase or time related issues during the summing process you will now be able to see it in the software.










Here is a link to download and install the new FiX firmware:https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/236090448

Download TuN 2.0 from the JL website and when your computer is plugged into the FiX you can now select and view your results.


----------



## valow

Lvrkight6481 said:


> Longtime lurker and finally had to chime in to get a question answered. Have 2013 raptor that at first was a nightmare to get audio bliss. Right now have a 360 off of Sony amp to 5 Channel amp. Running active components in the front and rears off Sony amp. And a single sub. Sounds better then the sony crap but was never really completely happy. Then I found this forum. Long post short now thinking the PAC with optical would be my best option now. For those that went down that road does all sync voice, chimes and alerts still work correctly ? Thanks


Hey welcome (to the circus!) 

I ran optical from the PAC and couldn't be happier. Everything works great!


----------



## valow

robhaynes said:


> I know it's been a while since I've posted in this thread (been super busy traveling and training). If you haven't yet you can update the firmware for your FiX and now view the corrected output results in TüN software! If you had any phase or time related issues during the summing process you will now be able to see it in the software.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a link to download and install the new FiX firmware:https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/236090448
> 
> Download TuN 2.0 from the JL website and when your computer is plugged into the FiX you can now select and view your results.


Very cool, thanks Rob! Any new features/updates regarding the TwK you can divulge?


----------



## robhaynes

valow said:


> Very cool, thanks Rob! Any new features/updates regarding the TwK you can divulge?


Yep, it's all been made available 
JL Audio Â» Info Â» TuN DSP Software

Changes in TuN for TwK include:

Scaleable window (you can now adjust the size)
Distance inputs for TD and poalrity moved to TUNE tab
Some cosmetic changes (colors on menus) that are easier on the eyes
Larger EQ window
Other bug fixes and stability improvements

If you're still using the FiX 82 and you are having what you feel are phase issues, definitely run TuN for FiX. If you see a dip in your output response you can electrically flip the polarity of the channel in TuN and then re-calibrate from the software and see the improved output and then listen for the change in the audio.


----------



## Lvrkight6481

Thanks for the reply. Glad to hear its working as I ordered mine. And can't wait to tear apart and redo ? my setup but hopefully will be worth it.


----------



## wroberts

Lvrkight6481 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Glad to hear its working as I ordered mine. And can't wait to tear apart and redo ? my setup but hopefully will be worth it.


I put mine in about 2 weeks ago, I love it man.


----------



## Lvrkight6481

wroberts said:


> Lvrkight6481 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply. Glad to hear its working as I ordered mine. And can't wait to tear apart and redo ? my setup but hopefully will be worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> I put mine in about 2 weeks ago, I love it man.
Click to expand...

Now I really can't wait for it to get here and get a day off from work and get this installed. I'm like a kid in a candy store at the moment.


----------



## valow

It does that. After a few more posts it will catch up. 409 is the last post I can see. 

How is everyone liking the PAC device so far?


----------



## dowheelies

Subscribing after long read.... 2017 F350 Platinum on order and planning

Eric


----------



## billj214

PAC still sounds great, still not using the sub out to DSP since it never worked but I plan on testing and tuning more today. Added 120g SSD USB drive full of music to center console and my XM satellite radio trial ended, sounded like crap anyway! 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

billj214 said:


> PAC still sounds great, still not using the sub out to DSP since it never worked but I plan on testing and tuning more today. Added 120g SSD USB drive full of music to center console and my XM satellite radio trial ended, sounded like crap anyway!
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk




Did PAC not have a solution for you?


----------



## billj214

valow said:


> Did PAC not have a solution for you?


Sub output for some reason does not work when plugged into DSP but does if you bypass it. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

billj214 said:


> Sub output for some reason does not work when plugged into DSP but does if you bypass it.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk




That's a solution.


----------



## valow

dowheelies said:


> Subscribing after long read.... 2017 F350 Platinum on order and planning
> 
> Eric


Hopefully the info in here will help. Not sure what big changes were done in the 17, but there are plenty of folks here who can comment if you have questions. Everything I've seen plus my own install, I love that PAC Audio piece - it's been a savior in terms of the install pains I've had over time.


----------



## valow

Lvrkight6481 said:


> Thanks for the reply. Glad to hear its working as I ordered mine. And can't wait to tear apart and redo ? my setup but hopefully will be worth it.


Any luck on your end? I have some power work I'm doing on my system when I get home. I've been in India since last week, and don't leave until Saturday. Now I'll just live vicariously through everyone else.


----------



## dowheelies

valow said:


> Hopefully the info in here will help. Not sure what big changes were done in the 17, but there are plenty of folks here who can comment if you have questions. Everything I've seen plus my own install, I love that PAC Audio piece - it's been a savior in terms of the install pains I've had over time.


Thanks, the info definately get me informed and considering the options. The PAC piece 
is appealing thus far as I look to remove the system in my 2011 and will need to cut/splice/solder the wires back to go stock again. Would be nice to be plug and play.

Deciding what equipment to use will be the problem for me, between the gear in my current build, stuff on the shelf and all the options out there. That will be the true agony for me......

Eric


----------



## Lvrkight6481

valow said:


> Lvrkight6481 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply. Glad to hear its working as I ordered mine. And can't wait to tear apart and redo ? my setup but hopefully will be worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> Any luck on your end? I have some power work I'm doing on my system when I get home. I've been in India since last week, and don't leave until Saturday. Now I'll just live vicariously through everyone else.
Click to expand...

Actually just finished tonight getting it put in where was this thing 2 years ago! And everything is working as it should. And clean going to my 360 and just barely had to time to set some basics. But otherwise I'm happy


----------



## dawaro

Question for those that are working on F150's...

Are you upgrading the battery terminals? If so can you post pictures? I am curious what others are doing with all the factory connections.


----------



## valow

dawaro said:


> Question for those that are working on F150's...
> 
> 
> 
> Are you upgrading the battery terminals? If so can you post pictures? I am curious what others are doing with all the factory connections.




I'm considering an alternator upgrade now that the install is complete. Finished last night and am very happy. I'll post some pictures. 

In terms of battery connectivity, I went with a single 0/1 AWG to the rear and distributed from there. No need to upgrade anything at the battery terminals. I know that doesn't help answer your question but may provide some options for you.


----------



## valow

Well, install is complete. Brand new speaker wire and power work. Tuning left to do but I just got home after being away for two weeks so I'll do that as I find time. Here's a pic of the final build. Any feedback welcome.


----------



## wroberts

valow said:


> It does that. After a few more posts it will catch up. 409 is the last post I can see.
> 
> How is everyone liking the PAC device so far?


I love it, I'm just dealing with a small amount of hiss at no volume, it's inaudible over road noise or the AC unit so I quit worrying about it. I was considering a more powerful amp to try to combat it but at this point I'm not worried enough about it to mess with it.

And I got my sub box. Pics incoming in the next day or so!


----------



## wroberts

dowheelies said:


> Thanks, the info definately get me informed and considering the options. The PAC piece
> is appealing thus far as I look to remove the system in my 2011 and will need to cut/splice/solder the wires back to go stock again. Would be nice to be plug and play.
> 
> 
> Eric


Define plug and play, I ended up cutting into the speaker wires coming out of the factory amp to get into the factory harness. It appeared to be a massive effort to get speaker wire through the doors.


----------



## billj214

He was referring to PAC APA-FD21 device which adds line level or optical output from your radio, not sure 2011 had Sync2 and Sony amp, check website for compatibility. Splicing your speaker wires to run to amp is just something you have to do unless you have the time for running all new wires. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

wroberts said:


> I love it, I'm just dealing with a small amount of hiss at no volume, it's inaudible over road noise or the AC unit so I quit worrying about it. I was considering a more powerful amp to try to combat it but at this point I'm not worried enough about it to mess with it.
> 
> And I got my sub box. Pics incoming in the next day or so!


I'm not 100% sure of your set up, but could it be the amp gains? Are you running amplified drivers, and a DSP?


----------



## Lvrkight6481

wroberts said:


> valow said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does that. After a few more posts it will catch up. 409 is the last post I can see.
> 
> How is everyone liking the PAC device so far?
> 
> 
> 
> I love it, I'm just dealing with a small amount of hiss at no volume, it's inaudible over road noise or the AC unit so I quit worrying about it. I was considering a more powerful amp to try to combat it but at this point I'm not worried enough about it to mess with it.
> 
> And I got my sub box. Pics incoming in the next day or so!
Click to expand...

I'm dealing with the same no volume hiss as well. Double checked everything and my amp gains are all the way down with all my adjustments down with my DSP. And I'm with you at this point and not worrying about it anymore. Everything else I'm happy with. Also can't wait to see the sub pics. 

On a side note been comtemplating Changing my sub setup. Have a 12 inch Polk mm under the seat that sounds good but been looking for behind the seat options.


----------



## wroberts

Lvrkight6481 said:


> I'm dealing with the same no volume hiss as well. Double checked everything and my amp gains are all the way down with all my adjustments down with my DSP. And I'm with you at this point and not worrying about it anymore. Everything else I'm happy with. Also can't wait to see the sub pics.
> 
> On a side note been comtemplating Changing my sub setup. Have a 12 inch Polk mm under the seat that sounds good but been looking for behind the seat options.


I went so far as to completely reroute my wiring and move my PAC, I had it behind the glove box, then I moved it over to the drivers side kick panel so I could run my RCA's down the middle of the truck instead of down the door panel boards... so now i have RCA cord visible between the center console and the floor mat, but I'm over it and I don't want to move it back because I dropped $50 on nicer RCA's to try and eliminate the hiss and they aren't long enough for make the door route run. So I'm leaving it.


----------



## optimaprime

So if your truck is made in tx plant it's good chance of doors having molex plugs. Any body every heard that ?


----------



## valow

optimaprime said:


> So if your truck is made in tx plant it's good chance of doors having molex plugs. Any body every heard that ?


Mine was built in KC and it had Molex.


----------



## valow

wroberts said:


> I love it, I'm just dealing with a small amount of hiss at no volume, it's inaudible over road noise or the AC unit so I quit worrying about it. I was considering a more powerful amp to try to combat it but at this point I'm not worried enough about it to mess with it.
> 
> And I got my sub box. Pics incoming in the next day or so!


Picture time yet?


----------



## wroberts

valow said:


> wroberts said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love it, I'm just dealing with a small amount of hiss at no volume, it's inaudible over road noise or the AC unit so I quit worrying about it. I was considering a more powerful amp to try to combat it but at this point I'm not worried enough about it to mess with it.
> 
> And I got my sub box. Pics incoming in the next day or so!
> 
> 
> 
> Picture time yet?
Click to expand...


I need to get some with the plate back on the sub amp but that's the gist. I'm gonna finish strapping wires in tomorrow and locking the back felt back in place


----------



## valow

wroberts said:


> I need to get some with the plate back on the sub amp but that's the gist. I'm gonna finish strapping wires in tomorrow and locking the back felt back in place


Looks great - very clean!


----------



## wroberts

valow said:


> Looks great - very clean!


Thanks man! It wasn't nearly as difficult as I thought it was gonna be to get it all together in there.


----------



## optimaprime

With PAC piece I have one and I am only going to do a two active plus sub setup. Can you just run one set of rca out of PAC ? In to my helix dsp? My dsp will then take signal and split how I want. No rear speakers will be used.


----------



## billj214

optimaprime said:


> With PAC piece I have one and I am only going to do a two active plus sub setup. Can you just run one set of rca out of PAC ? In to my helix dsp? My dsp will then take signal and split how I want. No rear speakers will be used.


Yes but if using sub from PAC you'll need another set. Makes sense to use single RCA run since people rarely use fade or balance and sub can use same channel in DSP. I'm still considering optical down the road, no line noise and uses all channels with single cable run to DSP. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## FordEscape

optimaprime said:


> With PAC piece I have one and I am only going to do a two active plus sub setup. Can you just run one set of rca out of PAC ? In to my helix dsp? My dsp will then take signal and split how I want. No rear speakers will be used.


Just curious .... since feeding a Helix RCA inputs why use the PAC module at all? What does that get you for ~$300 spent that you can't get doing the reprogram HU method and few bucks for connector pins?

I'm not understanding any benefit of an approach that introduces more components in the audio chain (PAC module), leaves more components in the audio chain (OEM Sony DSP), when you're not going to use any of the 'features' of the PAC module (fade/balance/Q-factor adjustments, etc, etc are all things that you shouldn't use with an aftermarket DSP since they would only screw-up your Helix (or any other aftermarket DSP) calibration basis)?

Not saying it _can't_ be done, and not saying the PAC module doesn't add some value for certain systems (e.g. not using a DSP), I just don't understand _why_ anyone building a system with an aftermarket 'full-featured' DSP (Helix, Alpine, MS8, etc) chooses to use the PAC module? If needing / wanting the analog>Toslink DSP input aren't there dedicated modules to provide only that function without all the extra baggage?


----------



## optimaprime

billj214 said:


> Yes but if using sub from PAC you'll need another set. Makes sense to use single RCA run since people rarely use fade or balance and sub can use same channel in DSP. I'm still considering optical down the road, no line noise and uses all channels with single cable run to DSP.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


Thank figured so. I am not using PAC for sub output helix will take care but f all signal needs. I just need flat signal and all factory chimes working right. I am also thinking about optical for one cable solution plus it sounds cool telling people it's optical. I just don't wanna pony up the 50 bucks when I spent ton of cash for PAC interface


----------



## billj214

FordEscape said:


> Just curious .... since feeding a Helix RCA inputs why use the PAC module at all? What does that get you for ~$300 spent that you can't get doing the reprogram HU method and few bucks for connector pins?
> 
> I'm not understanding any benefit of an approach that introduces more components in the audio chain (PAC module), leaves more components in the audio chain (OEM Sony DSP), when you're not going to use any of the 'features' of the PAC module (fade/balance/Q-factor adjustments, etc, etc are all things that you shouldn't use with an aftermarket DSP since they would only screw-up your Helix (or any other aftermarket DSP) calibration basis)?
> 
> Not saying it _can't_ be done, and not saying the PAC module doesn't add some value for certain systems (e.g. not using a DSP), I just don't understand _why_ anyone building a system with an aftermarket 'full-featured' DSP (Helix, Alpine, MS8, etc) chooses to use the PAC module? If needing / wanting the analog>Toslink DSP input aren't there dedicated modules to provide only that function without all the extra baggage?


Some of the concerns were modifying the ACM and at some point the dealership reprogramming to default and losing audio, 2nd owner would also have issues getting it to work. I also like the ability to set volumes independent of head unit, optical option and bass volume knob. I think most people like the simplicity regardless of cost, most of my friends cringe at the idea of reprogramming the ACM. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## optimaprime

billj214 said:


> Some of the concerns were modifying the ACM and at some point the dealership reprogramming to default and losing audio, 2nd owner would also have issues getting it to work. I also like the ability to set volumes independent of head unit, optical option and bass volume knob. I think most people like the simplicity regardless of cost, most of my friends cringe at the idea of reprogramming the ACM.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


Plus the PAC is pretty stinking simple and easily removed with out cutting wires.


----------



## valow

optimaprime said:


> Thank figured so. I am not using PAC for sub output helix will take care but f all signal needs. I just need flat signal and all factory chimes working right. I am also thinking about optical for one cable solution plus it sounds cool telling people it's optical. I just don't wanna pony up the 50 bucks when I spent ton of cash for PAC interface



I bought my optical cable off monoprice for $5.00. Just FYI.


----------



## billj214

I'm going optical but after I swap out my 5 channel Gladen amp, I feel 90w per channel is a little low for my speakers rated at 150w each, sub is ok @500. Valow what's your watts per channel for door speakers? I may go with 175+ per channel for some extra headroom.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

billj214 said:


> I'm going optical but after I swap out my 5 channel Gladen amp, I feel 90w per channel is a little low for my speakers rated at 150w each, sub is ok @500. Valow what's your watts per channel for door speakers? I may go with 175+ per channel for some extra headroom.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk




Not enough lol. 150 watts per in the rear doors. 100 each to the doors and tweets in the front. I believe my next thing is go with a 600wx4 for my doors and leave the 300x2 for the tweets. Just gotta start shopping. The problem with me shopping for an amp is then I wanna start shopping for drivers so I'm not allowing myself to do that. Yet.


----------



## billj214

valow said:


> Not enough lol. 150 watts per in the rear doors. 100 each to the doors and tweets in the front. I believe my next thing is go with a 600wx4 for my doors and leave the 300x2 for the tweets. Just gotta start shopping. The problem with me shopping for an amp is then I wanna start shopping for drivers so I'm not allowing myself to do that. Yet.


I know I will get some crap for this and a little off subject but I just ordered Orion XTR's, XTR800.4 and XTR1500.1, a little overkill but I will setup the gain for 150w max per channel on the 800.4 and 500w for the 1500.1. The 4 channel amp is rated 200w per channel @ 2ohms to run my 4 Focal 165's. Price is right at about $225 each including shipping from Amazon. From all the research I did these are well built amps on a budget, considering the JL Audio as a backup but couldn't justify the price per watt and didn't need the extra features since I'm running a Helix DSP Pro. 

Now I will have a reason to complete my dual battery setup and sell my Gladen 150C5. 

Cheers!


----------



## MacLeod

billj214 said:


> Some of the concerns were modifying the ACM and at some point the dealership reprogramming to default and losing audio, 2nd owner would also have issues getting it to work. I also like the ability to set volumes independent of head unit, optical option and bass volume knob. I think most people like the simplicity regardless of cost, most of my friends cringe at the idea of reprogramming the ACM.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


I've gotta say I've got some qualms about it too. I've had a lot of crap come up lately and still haven't finished my build and am going back and forth between the ACM and the Fix. I like the fact that the Fix would be the least intrusive and easiest to return to stock. I think if you didn't have to wait a day or two to get a license from the Forscan people I would feel a lot better about it.

I also REALLY like the idea of being able to see the signal the Fix is getting and being able to tweak on it a little. That's a big plus with the new software and firmware.


----------



## valow

MacLeod said:


> I've gotta say I've got some qualms about it too. I've had a lot of crap come up lately and still haven't finished my build and am going back and forth between the ACM and the Fix. I like the fact that the Fix would be the least intrusive and easiest to return to stock. I think if you didn't have to wait a day or two to get a license from the Forscan people I would feel a lot better about it.
> 
> 
> 
> I also REALLY like the idea of being able to see the signal the Fix is getting and being able to tweak on it a little. That's a big plus with the new software and firmware.




I terms of invasive, the PAC wins. You tie in to the headunit and don't have to touch speaker level. For the FiX, you're now tapping in to wiring and will have to revert that if you ever pull the system. 

The really nice piece now is that TuN supports the FiX so you can actually visualize it and manage it. I'm beyond happy with the PAC piece, but I had a ton of growing pains leading up to that even being released and available.


----------



## tonycacaroni

I'm starting a PAC install on 2014 F150 FX4 w/Sony. Thanks for the time invested in all this analysis and results. I must have read this thread 4 times already .

Tony


----------



## valow

tonycacaroni said:


> I'm starting a PAC install on 2014 F150 FX4 w/Sony. Thanks for the time invested in all this analysis and results. I must have read this thread 4 times already .
> 
> 
> 
> Tony




Did you see the YouTube video I found and posted for head unit removal? Saved my ass! Let me know if you have questions I pay pretty close attention to the forum. When are you starting the install?


----------



## MacLeod

valow said:


> I terms of invasive, the PAC wins. You tie in to the headunit and don't have to touch speaker level. For the FiX, you're now tapping in to wiring and will have to revert that if you ever pull the system.
> 
> The really nice piece now is that TuN supports the FiX so you can actually visualize it and manage it. I'm beyond happy with the PAC piece, but I had a ton of growing pains leading up to that even being released and available.


The PAC doesn't work with 8" MFT screens, only 4" and the other PAC adapter only works with Sony equipped systems. So guys with the 8" MFT non-Sony systems, it's either a LOC or ACM reprogramming unless something new has popped up in the last few weeks.


----------



## tonycacaroni

Yep I watched the video and and even the scope analysis. I just ordered the PAC unit from ABT so probably next weekend.


----------



## billj214

Set my PAC volume to 8/10 with stereo at 75% volume gives the cleanest signal, I'll need to research how to do it more technical but for now it's good. Nice option compared to ACM program.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## RedAggie03

Following, about to cut into my 2014 F150 8" MFT / Sync2 Sony system. I'm actually leaning towards creating the 4 low level outputs and ACM programming into a MS-8. 

Oh, WTB MS-8 please. haha.

Thanks for all of the hard work guys.


----------



## dawaro

RedAggie03 said:


> Following, about to cut into my 2014 F150 8" MFT / Sync2 Sony system. I'm actually leaning towards creating the 4 low level outputs and ACM programming into a MS-8.
> 
> Oh, WTB MS-8 please. haha.
> 
> Thanks for all of the hard work guys.


You can create a 4 channel output. It requires adding four new wires to the ACM plug and a different programing change.


----------



## Unsecured_WiFi

i was messing around with my focus today and notied this page when doing some searching 
AmpPRO Firmware Update - Download your file

also i read a press release that says the pac actually has some dsp functions in it that they will open up later

https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/04/18/first-amp-module-sells/


----------



## valow

Unsecured_WiFi said:


> i was messing around with my focus today and notied this page when doing some searching
> AmpPRO Firmware Update - Download your file
> 
> also i read a press release that says the pac actually has some dsp functions in it that they will open up later
> 
> https://www.ceoutlook.com/2017/04/18/first-amp-module-sells/


Guess who has two thumbs and has to pull his dash apart again to get to the PAC unit since he didn't connect the USB cable....yep, this guy!

Oh well, another project.


----------



## billj214

valow said:


> Guess who has two thumbs and has to pull his dash apart again to get to the PAC unit since he didn't connect the USB cable....yep, this guy!
> 
> Oh well, another project.


Mine is mounted near lower foot well side panel, I have access to it vs tucking it away. Recently added optical but disappointed it's only 2 channel output and volume knob does not work.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

billj214 said:


> Mine is mounted near lower foot well side panel, I have access to it vs tucking it away. Recently added optical but disappointed it's only 2 channel output and volume knob does not work.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


I HOPE I can just pull that panel and get to it - I left it pretty low.


----------



## tonycacaroni

valow said:


> Guess who has two thumbs and has to pull his dash apart again to get to the PAC unit since he didn't connect the USB cable....yep, this guy!
> 
> Oh well, another project.


PAC just arrived today. I was going to ask if I should leave the USB cord in place. Now I know


----------



## Unsecured_WiFi

thankfully my installers put it low by the gas petal in my focus so it was a breeze to plug the usb cable in.


----------



## valow

Unsecured_WiFi said:


> thankfully my installers put it low by the gas petal in my focus so it was a breeze to plug the usb cable in.


I'm going to take a look tonight and see if I can get to it form the panels down low. Wish me luck. If not, oh well, someone learned from my screw up.


----------



## wroberts

Final install pics, buttoned everything back up on my F150 today


----------



## valow

Unsecured_WiFi said:


> thankfully my installers put it low by the gas petal in my focus so it was a breeze to plug the usb cable in.


BOOM! I was able to get my giant bear claws in there and bring it down so I can get to it. Working on it now.


----------



## valow

Well crap - doesn't look like it's compatible with a Mac running VM Fusion.  I'll have to borrow a laptop tomorrow.


----------



## billj214

valow said:


> Well crap - doesn't look like it's compatible with a Mac running VM Fusion.  I'll have to borrow a laptop tomorrow.


Read the manual, you can make volume adjustments by holding track back button until it beeps, turn volume on knob down and stereo volume on 1 first. So far can you tell if the quality of sound is better? 

Sent from my SHIELD Tablet K1 using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

billj214 said:


> Read the manual, you can make volume adjustments by holding track back button until it beeps, turn volume on knob down and stereo volume on 1 first. So far can you tell if the quality of sound is better?
> 
> Sent from my SHIELD Tablet K1 using Tapatalk




I'm just trying to update firmware


----------



## jnchantler

wroberts said:


> Final install pics, buttoned everything back up on my F150 today




Dude! That box! Did you watch Austin Powers a lot when you were younger? Love it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NaamanF

Anyone used the AP4-FD21 with the optical module? Is the volume fixed or still adjustable through the ACM?


----------



## Lvrkight6481

NaamanF said:


> Anyone used the AP4-FD21 with the optical module? Is the volume fixed or still adjustable through the ACM?


I am and it's still adjustable.


----------



## valow

I'm optical, but honestly couldn't tell you - I haven't tried to adjust it yet. Would you like me to try?


----------



## billj214

Optical does adjust with volume and also using PAC unit. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## NaamanF

billj214 said:


> Optical does adjust with volume and also using PAC unit.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk




Awesome, thank you. I'm planning an install with it going to a Helix DSP. Any tips/tricks with the unit?


----------



## billj214

NaamanF said:


> Awesome, thank you. I'm planning an install with it going to a Helix DSP. Any tips/tricks with the unit?


That's how I'm running mine, just need to add bass remote to my sub amp. Setup helix digital input sensitivity all the way down or the DSP won't play until the volume is loud, other then that just typical setup output assignments normally. Helix DSP is setup for max 6v output so as long as your amp is ok with it, otherwise you'll have to adjust them by taking off the cover. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## valow

NaamanF said:


> Awesome, thank you. I'm planning an install with it going to a Helix DSP. Any tips/tricks with the unit?




There is a fantastic tuning tutorial I used to set up my TwK and I couldn't be happier with the sound. Even get some compliments. I believe I liked it earlier in the thread. Long read but well worth it. And someone took the posts and PDF'd them


----------



## optimaprime

billj214 said:


> Yes but if using sub from PAC you'll need another set. Makes sense to use single RCA run since people rarely use fade or balance and sub can use same channel in DSP. I'm still considering optical down the road, no line noise and uses all channels with single cable run to DSP.
> 
> Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


 Naw I just need clean signal to helix dsp. From there I'll split it up. I don't wanna use any extra controls or knobs.


----------



## NaamanF

What is everyone doing with their center channel? If it needed for any reason or is all audio played through the L/R now with the AP4 installed?


----------



## valow

NaamanF said:


> What is everyone doing with their center channel? If it needed for any reason or is all audio played through the L/R now with the AP4 installed?




I disconnected mine.


----------



## neuspeedescort

valow said:


> I disconnected mine.


same here.


----------



## valow

Has anyone successfully upgraded software on their PAC? I tried, but my laptop wouldn't detect the unit.


----------



## neuspeedescort

my system was for a friend/customer. just waiting for PAC to put out the update to delete the factory amp completely. he has been really busy so we haven't been able to sit down on my laptop and play with the internal crossover settings yet either. but we both want too.


----------



## rob3980

NaamanF said:


> What is everyone doing with their center channel? If it needed for any reason or is all audio played through the L/R now with the AP4 installed?




I disconnected my center channel 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wroberts

I have not tried to update it. I'm guessing you have the software installed from the PAC website... Did you try a different USB port or the device manager in your control panel (assuming Windows OS)? I have successfully connected to mine to work on the settings when i got it.


----------



## neuspeedescort

wroberts said:


> I have not tried to update it. I'm guessing you have the software installed from the PAC website... Did you try a different USB port or the device manager in your control panel (assuming Windows OS)? I have successfully connected to mine to work on the settings when i got it.


pretty simple to work with?


----------



## optimaprime

Any body got decent video or how to for running speaker wire in the doors with molex plug ? Mines 2013 fx4 with Sony **** and big touch screen. Using PAC peice for audio integration


----------



## neuspeedescort

in the focus RS i did a couple months ago i was able to locate a grommet on the door frame just in front of the main door boot. i ran the wire out of that grommet and into the bottom of the boot on the door side. small slits. loom or tesa tape the wire and silicone the slits afterwards. zero issues.


----------



## optimaprime

Hmmmm I might just try to grab on to factory wire in harness going in to door.


----------



## MacLeod

Just wanted to say I finally got around to putting my stuff all in. Went with the Fix at first and while it did a great job, I got a little too much noise if I didn't use the remote volume. No surprise there as JL has always said that would be the case as far back as the Clean Sweep. Still, the remote volume was kind of a pain as there really wasn't a great place to put it. 

After a day or two of living with it, I tried the Forscan "hack" and could not be happier! No noise and I retain all the factory controls, features and looks. Once I figured out what to do, it was really very simple and took me about 2 minutes to make the adjustments. I had to use a different code though for my 2016 F-150 as the one on the Fusion page didn't work. I used:

FORSCan codes:
ACM
727-01-01 xx5A xxxx xxxx This one makes the factory outputs a low level for an aftermarket amp.
727-01-02 00xx This one flattens the factroy EQ.

So yeah, I tend to think the Forscan mod is the best solution to these Ford systems, at least the non-Sony systems as that's what I've got. I can't speak to the Sony systems. 

Oh and these Morel Hybrids are my new favorite speakers in the world! Easily the best component set I've ever heard! All I've done so far is level match and set the crossovers (3.2 @ 24 db, -3db on tweets) and that's it and I would take this thing to a competition right now! I can't wait to see what they can do once I get some more dedicated tuning time with them.


----------



## billj214

Optimaprime - I connected to all my speaker wires from below center console at Sony amp. May as well run a few extra wires for when you switch to an active setup! ?

Also I made diy volume knobs for the Helix DSP and mounted them up on my headliner in front of sunglass holder, one knob is for bass, other for main volume. (F150 Raptor). 

Still using PAC audio interface with optical cable, using O-scope on DSP output shows no clipping at Max volume so I was impressed although head unit, PAC interface and DSP all have volume adjustments so only head unit at max volume, others 50-75%.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


----------



## dawaro

MacLeod said:


> Just wanted to say I finally got around to putting my stuff all in. Went with the Fix at first and while it did a great job, I got a little too much noise if I didn't use the remote volume. No surprise there as JL has always said that would be the case as far back as the Clean Sweep. Still, the remote volume was kind of a pain as there really wasn't a great place to put it.
> 
> After a day or two of living with it, I tried the Forscan "hack" and could not be happier! No noise and I retain all the factory controls, features and looks. Once I figured out what to do, it was really very simple and took me about 2 minutes to make the adjustments. I had to use a different code though for my 2016 F-150 as the one on the Fusion page didn't work. I used:
> 
> FORSCan codes:
> ACM
> 727-01-01 xx5A xxxx xxxx This one makes the factory outputs a low level for an aftermarket amp.
> 727-01-02 00xx This one flattens the factroy EQ.
> 
> So yeah, I tend to think the Forscan mod is the best solution to these Ford systems, at least the non-Sony systems as that's what I've got. I can't speak to the Sony systems.
> 
> Oh and these Morel Hybrids are my new favorite speakers in the world! Easily the best component set I've ever heard! All I've done so far is level match and set the crossovers (3.2 @ 24 db, -3db on tweets) and that's it and I would take this thing to a competition right now! I can't wait to see what they can do once I get some more dedicated tuning time with them.


Definitely agree. Since I did mine I was able to completely remove the Sony amp from the truck and I have retained all functionality and messages.

Although it required a little research and adding some additional wires to the wiring harness I was able to make programming changes to mine to where I now have pre-outs for the front/rear/center.


----------



## neuspeedescort

i was able to get into the PAC unit on with a laptop last weekend. the adjustable crossover points are not really that great. i ended up turning them off to run full out. then just using the crossovers built into the amp. the head unit in the focus i did clips at 28.


----------



## Ntm95

Anyone manage to figure out some forscan codes for 2011 f150's ?
I figured there would be some commonality, but am not having much luck.
I'm trying to disable the Sony stuff.


----------



## jnchantler

Ntm95 said:


> Anyone manage to figure out some forscan codes for 2011 f150's ?
> I figured there would be some commonality, but am not having much luck.
> I'm trying to disable the Sony stuff.


If you haven't already, head on over to F150forum, there's a lot of info on that there. It's a little too specific for DIYMA.


----------



## Ntm95

jnchantler said:


> If you haven't already, head on over to F150forum, there's a lot of info on that there. It's a little too specific for DIYMA.


Nothing over there, unfortunately the 15+ f150 is the only one that is well mapped.
It's sad, I've got a meticulously installed higher end setup just sitting, waiting for a signal :worried:
I curse Ford and Sony daily.


----------



## jnchantler

Ntm95 said:


> Nothing over there, unfortunately the 15+ f150 is the only one that is well mapped.
> 
> It's sad, I've got a meticulously installed higher end setup just sitting, waiting for a signal :worried:
> 
> I curse Ford and Sony daily.




Have you opened up the forscan software and looked through the ACM module, you could compare it to the new truck's values and see if they're the same, who knows maybe the ACM has similar programming for the Ford software. If you make a backup of the ACM you should be okay playing around with values.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jnchantler

Ntm95 said:


> Nothing over there, unfortunately the 15+ f150 is the only one that is well mapped.
> 
> It's sad, I've got a meticulously installed higher end setup just sitting, waiting for a signal :worried:
> 
> I curse Ford and Sony daily.




You could also check with DanMc85 on the 2g fusion forum. He seems to have a lot of info on this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ntm95

jnchantler said:


> Have you opened up the forscan software and looked through the ACM module, you could compare it to the new truck's values and see if they're the same, who knows maybe the ACM has similar programming for the Ford software. If you make a backup of the ACM you should be okay playing around with values.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The module numbers are similar, however, the values apply to completely different options.
I did get it figured out though with a bunch of trial and error. I'll put up a more detailed post with what each value does, and what you need for low level variable with no internal processing.


----------



## 555nova

I'm completely lost with Oem integration. I just got a 2014 FX4 supercrew with Sony and the 8" touchscreen. I would like to add an amp, change out the front components and Sub, but keep all the factory voice and steering wheel controls. Is the Pac amp pro4 the simplist way to do this? I'm not after completion sound I just want something that sounds better and has a bit of bass.


----------



## optimaprime

Ya the PAC peice is pricey butttttttt no wiring cutting. Plug and play. For the most part.


----------



## tonycacaroni

555nova said:


> I'm completely lost with Oem integration. I just got a 2014 FX4 supercrew with Sony and the 8" touchscreen. I would like to add an amp, change out the front components and Sub, but keep all the factory voice and steering wheel controls. Is the Pac amp pro4 the simplist way to do this? I'm not after completion sound I just want something that sounds better and has a bit of bass.


The PAC device absolutely works in my 2014 FX4 Supercab w/Sony (not anymore tho) and 8"mft.


----------



## SloppyButDecent

MacLeod said:


> Just wanted to say I finally got around to putting my stuff all in. Went with the Fix at first and while it did a great job, I got a little too much noise if I didn't use the remote volume. No surprise there as JL has always said that would be the case as far back as the Clean Sweep. Still, the remote volume was kind of a pain as there really wasn't a great place to put it.
> 
> After a day or two of living with it, I tried the Forscan "hack" and could not be happier! No noise and I retain all the factory controls, features and looks. Once I figured out what to do, it was really very simple and took me about 2 minutes to make the adjustments. I had to use a different code though for my 2016 F-150 as the one on the Fusion page didn't work. I used:
> 
> FORSCan codes:
> ACM
> 727-01-01 xx5A xxxx xxxx This one makes the factory outputs a low level for an aftermarket amp.
> 727-01-02 00xx This one flattens the factroy EQ.
> 
> So yeah, I tend to think the Forscan mod is the best solution to these Ford systems, at least the non-Sony systems as that's what I've got. I can't speak to the Sony systems.
> 
> Oh and these Morel Hybrids are my new favorite speakers in the world! Easily the best component set I've ever heard! All I've done so far is level match and set the crossovers (3.2 @ 24 db, -3db on tweets) and that's it and I would take this thing to a competition right now! I can't wait to see what they can do once I get some more dedicated tuning time with them.


Apologies for digging up this post, but can someone shed some more light on this "hack"? I am having some difficulty with this search function. -__- 

I am getting a 3khz hum in my system and the front tweeters (i have them in the pillars and coaxials as well, pillars have a crossover before them) are getting up to 200 degrees F with the ones on the Coaxials literally melting off. Any advice is much appreciated.


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## kanadian-kaos

Forscan allows you to modify settings in your truck. <--- Click

You need a laptop and this cable.


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## SloppyButDecent

Thank you very much. I will report back with my findings!


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## gsxtasy

So I have read every post in this thread, and what a journey it has been for you guys! It seems there are a couple of clear cut answers to factory integration. I'm wondering if there is any advantage to one over the other. My setup is a 2014 F150 FX4 with the Sony system and nav. I originally bought a Fix 86, but since going through this thread will most likely be returning it. I plan on using a Twk DSP to a RD 900/5 amp to either run active components or passive components and rears. (Any advice here?) 

My main question is: is there any advantages to the Pac integration harness for the Sony system with optical to the DSP over doing the ACM adjustments and wiring RCA's to the speaker line level to DSP? It looks like there is a couple of extra wiring things to maintain nav voice if going the Forscan route, correct?

If I go with the PAC harness is it worth going optical out, would I maintain backup sensor chimes, etc? Does factory volume controls work properly through optical?

Thanks in advance for any help!


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## valow

gsxtasy said:


> So I have read every post in this thread, and what a journey it has been for you guys! It seems there are a couple of clear cut answers to factory integration. I'm wondering if there is any advantage to one over the other. My setup is a 2014 F150 FX4 with the Sony system and nav. I originally bought a Fix 86, but since going through this thread will most likely be returning it. I plan on using a Twk DSP to a RD 900/5 amp to either run active components or passive components and rears. (Any advice here?)
> 
> 
> 
> My main question is: is there any advantages to the Pac integration harness for the Sony system with optical to the DSP over doing the ACM adjustments and wiring RCA's to the speaker line level to DSP? It looks like there is a couple of extra wiring things to maintain nav voice if going the Forscan route, correct?
> 
> 
> 
> If I go with the PAC harness is it worth going optical out, would I maintain backup sensor chimes, etc? Does factory volume controls work properly through optical?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help!




You’re basically doing exactly what I have. All chimes and nav controls work just as original. Enjoy you’re gonna love it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JoshC1

I have 2017 F150 (Sync3) with Mosconi Zero amps, Mosconi 8to12 Aerospace DSP, and Stinger 9000 RCA's. I have done Forscan codes, pulled out the Sony DSP, and life is much better, however, I have 2 problems.
1. When I open a door, press lock/unlock, or anything really on the truck, the DSP and all the amps turn on before my 12v amp turn on turns on (I'm tapped into the 12v output of the power inverter) Even if I unplug my DSP altogether the amps turn on, and make a popping noise when they shut off, which is about 2-5 minutes after I let the truck sit.
2. When the volume is down I'm getting a weird digital noise beep sound coming from the speakers. When I unplug RCA's from the APIM I no longer get that noise, I also tried a different set of RCA's just to see, but still remained.
Anyone else having these problems?


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## dowheelies

On the turn on....

I’m not 100% clear from your post how you have the turn on signal from the inverter wired. 

IMHO the first step is to confirm the wire you have tapped at the inverter is truly switching voltage when the Sync turns on and off. 
Second that wire should only be connected to the DSP rem in. The amps should then be triggered by the DSP rem Out. Also be sure the auto sense switch is set to off. I’m not familiar if there are any adjustments in the software for delay time etc. 

As for the digital garble I have no help to offer.

Good luck,
Eric


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