# Zapco DC Ref 650.6 Going into protection, Please help debunk



## splaudiohz

Hey guys, I just purchased a Zapco DC Ref 650.6 off of another member on here. It was tested and the minor issues were listed. He shipped the amp and after I recieved it I did what everyone does, I bench tested it. 4awg wires and a 12 volt source outside of the HU (to assure a full 12 volts was getting to the rem on). All lines were tested prior to hook up with my DMM (you never know if there is any voltage issues). As soon as the Rem wire was powered up the RED Protection light came on. 

I read through the Zapco manual twice to make sure periferals did not need hooked up, or if I was missing something. Looked right to me. I contacted the seller. He double checked my background in car audio (which is what I would also do), as well as my method of testing and my voltage numbers. He agreed something was not right. 

I am looking for help from anyone on here. I really do not have the cash to ship this beast to an authorized rep and have it repaired. Thanks for any advise, 

Jesse


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## omar_uh

I am the seller who sold the amp & his problem has left me very puzzled. Last time I had this connected was just about 3 weeks ago. It was handled very nicely & shipping was well protected. 

There is no reason I can think of why the amp is going intro protection. Fellow DIYMA ers, please give your input. 



splaudiohz said:


> Hey guys, I just purchased a Zapco DC Ref 650.6 off of another member on here. It was tested and the minor issues were listed. He shipped the amp and after I recieved it I did what everyone does, I bench tested it. 4awg wires and a 12 volt source outside of the HU (to assure a full 12 volts was getting to the rem on). All lines were tested prior to hook up with my DMM (you never know if there is any voltage issues). As soon as the Rem wire was powered up the RED Protection light came on.
> 
> I read through the Zapco manual twice to make sure periferals did not need hooked up, or if I was missing something. Looked right to me. I contacted the seller. He double checked my background in car audio (which is what I would also do), as well as my method of testing and my voltage numbers. He agreed something was not right.
> 
> I am looking for help from anyone on here. I really do not have the cash to ship this beast to an authorized rep and have it repaired. Thanks for any advise,
> 
> Jesse


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## goodstuff

splaudiohz said:


> Hey guys, I just purchased a Zapco DC Ref 650.6 off of another member on here. It was tested and the minor issues were listed. He shipped the amp and after I recieved it I did what everyone does, I bench tested it. 4awg wires and a 12 volt source outside of the HU (to assure a full 12 volts was getting to the rem on). All lines were tested prior to hook up with my DMM (you never know if there is any voltage issues). As soon as the Rem wire was powered up the RED Protection light came on.
> 
> I read through the Zapco manual twice to make sure periferals did not need hooked up, or if I was missing something. Looked right to me. I contacted the seller. He double checked my background in car audio (which is what I would also do), as well as my method of testing and my voltage numbers. He agreed something was not right.
> 
> I am looking for help from anyone on here. I really do not have the cash to ship this beast to an authorized rep and have it repaired. Thanks for any advise,
> 
> Jesse


Well, can you tell us exactly how you tested it. What were your power and signal sources, what was your ohm load on the amp etc.


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## splaudiohz

goodstuff said:


> Well, can you tell us exactly how you tested it. What were your power and signal sources, what was your ohm load on the amp etc.


Basic wood bench. 120V to 12V DC power supply that feeds female banana plugs. A 12V optima was hooked up to this power supply to help avoid any potential fuxuations that may come from the immediate power source. Battery output was measured at 12.6-13.2 V. CDA117 was hooked up, to include rcas. Stinger 4 awg was ran from the batt to the amp. Still measuring between high 12s and low 13s. 

Test one: Amp REM hooked up to Head unit. HU powered up, Amp went into protection. I immediatly measured rem wire from alpine. It was a bit low. High 11s. 
Test two: So I ran a rem wire direct from 12 volt source to amp. Protect light came on again.
Test three: RCAs, and source eliminated. Still no power up, only protect. 

There are no speakers hooked up to this amp, so there are no loads of resistance on any channels.


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## stereojnky

Open it up and make sure nothing fell inside like wire slivers or something. Might be worth it to take a look anyway.


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## omar_uh

I wanted to ask every ones opinion, what are the chances of an amp failing while being handled roughly in shipping. The amp was double boxed and inside it was double layered with fat bubble wraps. It was tightly packed in the box, labeled fragile. The sym connectors were shipped outside the main amp box, to protect each other. 

Is shipping damage common ? Lets say if they dropped the thing from a height of 5 feet, would the amp be damaged this way by any chance? I never had an amp fail on me & I have shuffled through a whole swarm of them in the last 10 years or so. Your inputs are appreciated !


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## splaudiohz

from left to right, all looks good:


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## goodstuff

splaudiohz said:


> Basic wood bench. *120V to 12V DC power supply that feeds female banana plugs. A 12V optima was hooked up to this power supply to help avoid any potential fuxuations that may come from the immediate power source.* Battery output was measured at 12.6-13.2 V. CDA117 was hooked up, to include rcas. Stinger 4 awg was ran from the batt to the amp. Still measuring between high 12s and low 13s.
> 
> Test one: Amp REM hooked up to Head unit. HU powered up, Amp went into protection. I immediatly measured rem wire from alpine. It was a bit low. High 11s.
> Test two: So I ran a rem wire direct from 12 volt source to amp. Protect light came on again.
> Test three: RCAs, and source eliminated. Still no power up, only protect.
> 
> There are no speakers hooked up to this amp, so there are no loads of resistance on any channels.


I don't get it. Why would you use a 120v to 12v converter *and* a battery?
Try hooking it up with a proper ohm load ( speaker) and rca's connected. Try a different amp using the same setup.


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## splaudiohz

goodstuff said:


> I don't get it. Why would you use a 120v to 12v converter *and* a battery?
> Try hooking it up with a proper ohm load ( speaker) and rca's connected. Try a different amp using the same setup.


Why would I hook up speakers? If it does not power up off of a 12v battery and a hu then what would speakers do? I will try it if you think it will help. I will try anything at this point. I will hook it up in place of my memphis belle 1300.


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## goodstuff

You didn't explain why you used a battery and a 120-12v converter at the same time. I don't know what effect that would have. Some amps need a load to be happy if I remember correctly.


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## splaudiohz

goodstuff said:


> You didn't explain why you used a battery and a 120-12v converter at the same time. I don't know what effect that would have. Some amps need a load to be happy if I remember correctly.


You have a valid point. The output on the converter was fuxuating between 12.3-18.6. I thought that was a bit much, so I stabalized it with a buffer, a 12 volt batt. As the battery was losing a charge as the HU was hooked up to it I thought the amp needed more power. Keeping the battery at a constant voltage level with a measured output of 12.6-13.2 this was a little more optimal. Maybe this amp can handle voltage spikes, I don't know, but I was not willing to take that chance. 

I will more than likely hook this thing up to my trucks optima 900cc yellow top this weekened and let the truck charge the batt and see what raw power does.


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## omar_uh

The battery will barely act as a buffer if voltage is fluctuating with such a wide variance. Did you try hooking it up directly to the battery in your suv & as some said with load ? Let us know.


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## splaudiohz

As soon as the weather clears up I am going to do just that. I will post results, or pics, or a vid or something , not sure yet.


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## envisionelec

splaudiohz said:


> Basic wood bench. 120V to 12V DC power supply that feeds female banana plugs. A 12V optima was hooked up to this power supply to help avoid any potential fuxuations that may come from the immediate power source. Battery output was measured at 12.6-13.2 V. CDA117 was hooked up, to include rcas. Stinger 4 awg was ran from the batt to the amp. Still measuring between high 12s and low 13s.
> 
> Test one: Amp REM hooked up to Head unit. HU powered up, Amp went into protection. I immediatly measured rem wire from alpine. It was a bit low. High 11s.
> Test two: So I ran a rem wire direct from 12 volt source to amp. Protect light came on again.
> Test three: RCAs, and source eliminated. Still no power up, only protect.
> 
> There are no speakers hooked up to this amp, so there are no loads of resistance on any channels.


I've run across amplifiers that fail to power up or enter protection if the RCA shields from the HU aren't at the same GND potential as the amplifier. You did not say where the HU was powered - but use the same power supply/battery and try that.


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## splaudiohz

envisionelec said:


> I've run across amplifiers that fail to power up or enter protection if the RCA shields from the HU aren't at the same GND potential as the amplifier. You did not say where the HU was powered - but use the same power supply/battery and try that.


I will retry that as well. The origional test was hooked up in the way you stated. I will take the HU out to my truck as well.


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## envisionelec

omar_uh said:


> Is shipping damage common ? Lets say if they dropped the thing from a height of 5 feet, would the amp be damaged this way by any chance? I never had an amp fail on me & I have shuffled through a whole swarm of them in the last 10 years or so. Your inputs are appreciated !


Shipping damage is rare. Car amplifiers - especially of this quality - are designed to withstand very high vibration forces. I don't think this is the problem...


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## omar_uh

envisionelec said:


> Shipping damage is rare. Car amplifiers - especially of this quality - are designed to withstand very high vibration forces. I don't think this is the problem...



That is exactly that I thought.


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## Mike_Dee

splaudiohz said:


> Why would I hook up speakers? If it does not power up off of a 12v battery and a hu then what would speakers do? I will try it if you think it will help. I will try anything at this point. I will hook it up in place of my memphis belle 1300.


You should be able to bench test any car amp with a 12V power supply as you did minus the battery part. You don't need a source, or a load. Try this as a last test:

You can hook any test jumper gauge of wire, I use 18ga with alligator clips. Hook the +12 lead to the B+, and jump that to the remote turn on lead terminal of the amp. Hook the ground to the ground of your power supply. If it stays in protect mode, the amp is more than likely faulty.


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## envisionelec

Mike_Dee said:


> You should be able to bench test any car amp with a 12V power supply as you did minus the battery part. You don't need a source, or a load. Try this as a last test:
> 
> You can hook any test jumper gauge of wire, I use 18ga with alligator clips. Hook the +12 lead to the B+, and jump that to the remote turn on lead terminal of the amp. Hook the ground to the ground of your power supply. If it stays in protect mode, the amp is more than likely faulty.


Isn't this what he did?

Alpine V12 MRV-T1000 needed that grounded RCA input. Trust me, that's one "fault" that I'll *never forget*.


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## splaudiohz

I will try and retest today, with and without source and rcas. I have never encountered such a sensitive amp. I really hope the amp isn't faulty. I hate to have to send it back to the seller. I really like it, but it doesn't help me if it is not working. He has been an amazing help an offered a seven day period where he would warranty the amp. I contacted him within that period of time and he responded within minutes. Again, awesome guy. Just want to resolve this issue.


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## Mike_Dee

splaudiohz said:


> I will try and retest today, with and without source and rcas. I have never encountered such a sensitive amp. I really hope the amp isn't faulty. I hate to have to send it back to the seller. I really like it, but it doesn't help me if it is not working. He has been an amazing help an offered a seven day period where he would warranty the amp. I contacted him within that period of time and he responded within minutes. Again, awesome guy. Just want to resolve this issue.


Tell you what. I'll post a couple pics of my test set-up that I've used on any amp I've ever bench tested as soon as my camera battery recharges. I'll include an amp powered up.


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## trojan fan

splaudiohz said:


> Hey guys, I just purchased a Zapco DC Ref 650.6 off of another member on here. It was tested and the minor issues were listed. He shipped the amp and after I recieved it I did what everyone does, I bench tested it. 4awg wires and a 12 volt source outside of the HU (to assure a full 12 volts was getting to the rem on). All lines were tested prior to hook up with my DMM (you never know if there is any voltage issues). As soon as the Rem wire was powered up the RED Protection light came on.
> 
> I read through the Zapco manual twice to make sure periferals did not need hooked up, or if I was missing something. Looked right to me. I contacted the seller. He double checked my background in car audio (which is what I would also do), as well as my method of testing and my voltage numbers. He agreed something was not right.
> 
> I am looking for help from anyone on here. I really do not have the cash to ship this beast to an authorized rep and have it repaired. Thanks for any advise,
> 
> Jesse



Enough said here, no other way around it, get that amp back to Zapco and bite the bullet....good luck


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## kyheng

Suggest to connect all the output with speakers.....


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## Mike_Dee

kyheng said:


> Suggest to connect all the output with speakers.....


Not necessary.


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## splaudiohz

Alright guys here is the verdict after a loooooooong ass MFING DAY of testing this b1tch after a nasty physics test (at least I was in the right mind set). I basically set up a bench in front of my truck. 99 Durango with one hell of a power plant for the sound system. I hooked this Zapco up to the nearly 1000 amp battery (900cca) with 4 awg (Oh yeah I bought new just for this test) and touched the 12 v acc wire. 

Protection.......1sec....2sec.......3sec......GREEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am whipped, tired and just want a beer but have finals and a laundry list of 3, 4, and 500 level bio, chem, and stats exams this week to study for. Feel free to list you "I told you so"s and what not. I will test speakers as soon as I can get time. I hope this is souding more "normal". This is my first zapco among the hundreds of amps I have owned, serviced, repaird, and installed. Made me feel like a noob and a little *****, that is for sure. Always good to be "checked" once in a while. 

Jesse


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## omar_uh

My setup, which never ever induced the amp to protection, was 

--------------------------------------
110 amp alternator (stock) 
die hard marine platinum (replaced stock one)
0 gauge all through 
0 gauge big 3 
zapco dc 650.6 (sold to patient jesse) >> hertz mlk165 active front, focal vr2 passive rear 
vrx 2.400 >> ultimo 12 

------------------------------

Sure I might have lacked alternator power, got a few dim headlights when bumping, but never got into protection, period. 

Jesse you were given a good amp & I was confident on that for sure. So what 'were' you doing wrong, enlighten us ..... or those who will see this thread in future facing similar problems. We would all like to hear from you.


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## splaudiohz

Out of curiosity, do these amps show the red light before they go green? I know amps have that wait period before they turn on, just not use to the red light. At least it came on this time  The other times it ......just .....stayed....on. 

Everyone go and get a beer and crack it open and join me.


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## Mike_Dee

splaudiohz said:


> Alright guys here is the verdict after a loooooooong ass MFING DAY of testing this b1tch after a nasty physics test (at least I was in the right mind set). I basically set up a bench in front of my truck. 99 Durango with one hell of a power plant for the sound system. I hooked this Zapco up to the nearly 1000 amp battery (900cca) with 4 awg (Oh yeah I bought new just for this test) and touched the 12 v acc wire.
> 
> Protection.......1sec....2sec.......3sec......GREEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I am whipped, tired and just want a beer but have finals and a laundry list of 3, 4, and 500 level bio, chem, and stats exams this week to study for. Feel free to list you "I told you so"s and what not. I will test speakers as soon as I can get time. I hope this is souding more "normal". This is my first zapco among the hundreds of amps I have owned, serviced, repaird, and installed. Made me feel like a noob and a little *****, that is for sure. Always good to be "checked" once in a while.
> 
> Jesse



I wonder what you were doing wrong?


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## splaudiohz

omar_uh said:


> Jesse you were given a good amp & I was confident on that for sure. So what 'were' you doing wrong, enlighten us ..... or those who will see this thread in future facing similar problems. We would all like to hear from you.


I am not 100% sure. The only thing I did different was ditch the optima I had on the bench and switched to my truck battery. 

For ****s and giggles I tried a smaller awg wire to see if that would pass a bench test that way. I wasn't going to use 16 or 18, but I did have some 11 awg Ixos laying around. I wanted to try every post on here. 

If anyone tries anything smaller than 10awg on this amp the protection light will come on then dim out into darkness. 

I tried 8 and it came on after a 3 sec delay. The same with the 4awg. When I cut power the indicator lights for the speakers come on, but that is to be expected as the RCAs and speakers are not there for the power to disperse through. Gotta go somewhere. 

Cannot wait to get this beast into the mustang and get power running through it daily.


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## Mike_Dee

The Alpine 3552 powered up (notice the 18 ga):










The Power Supply:


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## goodstuff

Running a smaller gauge wire shouldn't matter...at first....till the wire gets red hot and melts the insulation. Should turn on and be fine. Is that alpine 3552 rated at 35x2?


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## splaudiohz

Not sure what to say. Just presenting the info as I collected it.


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## Mike_Dee

goodstuff said:


> Running a smaller gauge wire shouldn't matter...at first....*till the wire gets red hot and melts*. Should turn on and be fine. Is that alpine 3552 rated at 35x2?


LOL, you don't understand how amplifiers work. At idle (to test), very few amps draw over 1A of current. Now is say I was playing bass heavy music on a multi kilowatt amp, it would be a different story.

I've left amps over night with the wire not even getting warm, and you can too. :d


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## splaudiohz

I am not going to try with a lower awg wire again. Last time I did it it was not coming back on until I ran a large awg wire. When I say it did not come back on I mean the protect light did not even come on. Nothing. Im not playing with this amp in that way any more.


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## Mike_Dee

splaudiohz said:


> I am not going to try with a lower awg wire again. Last time I did it it was not coming back on until I ran a large awg wire. When I say it did not come back on I mean the protect light did not even come on. Nothing. Im not playing with this amp in that way any more.


As long as you're happy that's all that matters. I'll retrain in the future to give you solid help. Good Luck!


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## goodstuff

Mike_Dee said:


> LOL, you don't understand how amplifiers work. At idle (to test), very few amps draw over 1A of current. Now is say I was playing bass heavy music on a multi kilowatt amp, it would be a different story.
> 
> I've left amps over night with the wire not even getting warm, and you can too. :d


That's why I said at first, as in it will turn on but any real current and it won't be pretty.
I really don't give a **** if you think I don't understand how amplifiers work.


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## splaudiohz

Just tried out some 16awg on an old school Alpine and an old Kicker. Came right on. Might just be a Zapco protection thing. Your pics will help many. Thank you for them. May I ask what make model converter you are using.


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## Mike_Dee

goodstuff said:


> I really don't give a **** if you think I don't understand how amplifiers work.


Shhh, let the adults talk.


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## trojan fan

This whole thread is pointless....


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## goodstuff




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## envisionelec

Mike_Dee said:


> LOL, you don't understand how amplifiers work.


Ah HA. Ah HA HA HA HA. oke:

With all due respect, sir, you _also _do not understand how some amps work. 

1A is what your meter reads.

For the Zapco, it could be 20-30A pulses at start-up. If the battery has a bad cell, the voltage would dip significantly at startup causing the protection to kick in.

Some US Amps' products had a nasty habit of drawing 50A at startup.


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## Mike_Dee

envisionelec said:


> Ah HA. Ah HA HA HA HA. oke:
> 
> With all due respect, sir, you _also _do not understand how some amps work.
> 
> 1A is what your meter reads.
> 
> For the Zapco, it could be 20-30A pulses at start-up. If the battery has a bad cell, the voltage would dip significantly at startup causing the protection to kick in.
> 
> Some US Amps' products had a nasty habit of drawing 50A at startup.


You are talking inrush current, not sustained idle current. Perhaps you should take an amp refresher course.


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