# Does your system punch you in the chest?



## midbass.deprived (Sep 30, 2012)

Very few systems I've heard actually give that sensation. Does yours? Mine does not and I am working to improve that.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Mine SHOULD (considering 2500 watts to 2 monster subs) but i only feel the sound from the back  so i guess im in the same boat you are. Anyone know where to start to fix this?


----------



## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

In the chest? Nope. It's more in the kidneys. This is the very reason why I am a proponent of installing the biggest midwoofers you can up front. Better still is if you can actually get the subs physically up front also (not practical in most vehicles).

I once had a conversation with a drummer. He said that the punch in the chest the audience gets from being in _front_ of a drum kit is not experienced to the same extent for the drummer _behind_ the kit. When you stop to think about that, it really makes sense. The air that's being moved from the bass drum is projected directly in front of the audience. Naturally the drummer wouldn't feel it in the chest like the crowd does. So the same principle applies to midbasses/subs. Having subs in the back isn't going to give you that. I don't care what anyone says. Sure, it will still punch - but not hard in the chest like you would get from being in front of a live drummer or an amplified concert style rig. It's even worse in a trunk car.


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

more powah and it will punch just fine from the back


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> more powah and it will punch just fine from the back


i got 2500 watts.. how much more do i possibly need!!!! maybe its my t-line box with subs firing towards the rear. idk


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

Everytime I have to open my wallet.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> i got 2500 watts.. how much more do i possibly need!!!! maybe its my t-line box with subs firing towards the rear. idk


 what is mid bass config, drivers,power? looks like your transmission line doesn`t do it thing. try sealed box to see if it get you a punch.( I don't believe I'm actually saying that, I prefer lower playing sub boxes like transmission line but 150-200 W mid bass for a punch.
Your signature picture is too small to see,


----------



## 11blueGTI (Apr 24, 2011)

midbass.deprived said:


> Very few systems I've heard actually give that sensation. Does yours? Mine does not and I am working to improve that.


I only had it once. I was running a pair of 8" DLS Iridium Prototype mid basses and then the 3" dome and 1" tweeter from the iridium set and a single IDQ15v2 sealed. This was all off of a DLS A4 for the mid and tweeter and DLS A5 for the midbass and sub. Not the most powerful of systems, but had it tuned well and it did hit in the chest.


----------



## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

wouldn't that be more of a t.a. concern? i say this because i am a drummer and the previous analogy doesn't make alot of sense; those frequencies travel through mass, in all directions from my understanding. the only difference is that the drummer is potentially isolated from the subs being on stage, and sometimes on separate risers whereas the crowd is usually standing on concrete. at a real show, nobody hears/feels the actual impact of the drum (un-mic'd) but rather the subs.

in my car i have 2 8's in the doors, 2 7's in the kicks and 3 10's in the trunk in a ported box; you think i like midbass/bass, eh?? i agree with an earlier post about getting big drivers up front. my morel 8's make a huuuuge difference to the visceral experience of the music. as far as hitting in the chest goes, i would assume that would be achieved simply by time aligning your subs with your mids. it works for me, but just my opinion. im not an expert like some of the other guys here.


----------



## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

brett said:


> at a real show, nobody hears/feels the actual impact of the drum (un-mic'd) but rather the subs.


But those speakers/subs are usually projected towards the front of the audience; they're not in the back of them like most of our car subs are. That's the point I was trying to make.

A good experiment to try is at home with a decent speaker system. Play a song that has nice punch-you-in-the-chest bass and stand directly in front of your speakers. Then turn your back to them. Do you still feel the punch in the chest?


----------



## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Yes, as soon as I added a sealed 10 in the footwell. Only one car I have ever heard has more impact, and it also uses front subs.


----------



## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

I'm after SQ with a pinch of punch, but does mine in the chest.... no. 

Only 2 vehicles have I ever been in that did that.
A friend's std cab Dodge Dakota w/an 8" JL W7 off of a JL 250/1. Sub was in a 1 cf ported box where the center console used to be. I despise JL, but I was highly impressed.

The other had the subs on the back, LANZARs demo van from '95. 

The secret is finding the correct ratio of cone area + power to cabin space.


----------



## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

I have one album with kick drums that punch in the chest, and that's Pantera's Cowboys From Hell. Most days I'm listening to music with double kick bass, and nothing else hits the same as that album. It would be more accurate to say my system hits in my back.


----------



## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

My car would do it hard with the quad 12s IB, the issue was the FR of them. It would localize when I let it hit that hard up higher where you get the punch feeling. No doubt why midbass come up as a solution. I've not tried it as much with the 15s and they tune lower anyway, and I don't like midbass out of my subs. So yeah that is why I'd like to put 10s in the front but still figure it would mess up the FR to have them that heavy on midbass, but current mids are too weak and 10s are the only thing that are somewhat flat to 50hz so my subs can stay low.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Let me ask this, does your seat vibrate? If it does, you'll never truly get that punched in the chest feel, because your seat will become the imaging cue, even if your speakers are in front of you. I think that Richard Clark even melted and poured lead into his seat frames to fix this issue in the GN.

With my last build, I had punch in the chest, not the strongest but it was there. Had it will sitting on a wood stool where the drivers seat should have been, messing with the install. As soon as the seat went back in, it was gone.


----------



## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

PANTERAs CFH, really? I get more luck out of their Vulgar and Driven albums then CFH.


----------



## robert_wrath (Apr 24, 2011)

Donkey Punches!


----------



## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

smgreen20 said:


> PANTERAs CFH, really? I get more luck out of their Vulgar and Driven albums then CFH.


I'm not a big Pantera fan. I bought the album based on a recommendation on this forum.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Victor_inox said:


> what is mid bass config, drivers,power? looks like your transmission line doesn`t do it thing. try sealed box to see if it get you a punch.( I don't believe I'm actually saying that, I prefer lower playing sub boxes like transmission line but 150-200 W mid bass for a punch.
> Your signature picture is too small to see,


im not using whats in my sig at the moment.. right now the midbass are Hybrid Imagines bridged off a Zapco 360.4. I just put them in a good baffle a few days ago but it didnt help much


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> im not using whats in my sig at the moment.. right now the midbass are Hybrid Imagines bridged off a Zapco 360.4. I just put them in a good baffle a few days ago but it didnt help much


In the doors?

The system I had before was Imagines getting 125 watts per, crossed at 80hz, Kicker CVX10" in a prefab ported box. The punch was in the chest, but only when sitting on the stool in the drivers position. With the seat in, the seat back vibration made it feel like it was coming from the rear.

Sub was in the trunk, Imagines were in 20 pound concrete/fiberglass/steel shot kick panels bolted to the car.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> In the doors?
> 
> The system I had before was Imagines getting 125 watts per, crossed at 80hz, Kicker CVX10" in a prefab ported box. The punch was in the chest, but only when sitting on the stool in the drivers position. With the seat in, the seat back vibration made it feel like it was coming from the rear.
> 
> Sub was in the trunk,* Imagines were in 20 pound concrete/fiberglass/steel shot kick panels bolted to the car.*


holy overkill..? lol but yeah in the doors. I had them in a very tiny sealed fiberglass enclosure in the doors but no noticeable difference. Maybe it is just the seats.


----------



## Danometal (Nov 16, 2009)

I kinda do. I have a JBL P1224 in my trunk crossed @ 95 hz. Leaving the back seat up causes less localization for some reason. Once I got the sub time aligned properly with the mids, I found that my bass seems to kick all through my torso vs just from behind like it did before I got the tuning right. That's the best I can expect from a trunk car and 6.5 inch mids with only 70 watts RMS at the very most on tap for each of them.


----------



## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

trumpet said:


> I have one album with kick drums that punch in the chest, and that's Pantera's Cowboys From Hell. Most days I'm listening to music with double kick bass, and nothing else hits the same as that album. It would be more accurate to say my system hits in my back.


Try Queensryche Operation Mindcrime. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Try Queensryche Operation Mindcrime.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


If you want double bass pedals flying i will 1 up you with All Shall Perish's album "This Is Where It Ends".. 

*WARNING* do not listen to if you do not like death metal


----------



## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

sqshoestring said:


> My car would do it hard with the quad 12s IB, the issue was the FR of them. It would localize when I let it hit that hard up higher where you get the punch feeling. No doubt why midbass come up as a solution. I've not tried it as much with the 15s and they tune lower anyway, and I don't like midbass out of my subs. So yeah that is why I'd like to put 10s in the front but still figure it would mess up the FR to have them that heavy on midbass, but current mids are too weak and 10s are the only thing that are somewhat flat to 50hz so my subs can stay low.


sq, you really need to get moving with those 10s in the doors lol 

You've been talking about it for at least a year now. I'm anxious to hear about the outcome. Your proposed plan sounds like it would make for a really stellar system.


----------



## SoundJunkie (Dec 3, 2008)

Mine will beat you up! Pair of Dynaudio MW172's (8" mb) in front doors IB crossed at 63hz and getting 340 watts each. That combined with a pair of 13" Focal 33KX subs on 1200 watts and tuned to seem like they are on my hood

Anyone that has been in my truck for a demo can attest to the tight, fast chest thump this system has.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

^^ See, I think that's why a truck would make for the perfect vehicle for a system. I mentioned this once and people said I was crazy and that a pickup truck is bad idea for a system. I don't see it that way. For one, the cabin is so much smaller compared to a car that the sound will be more up front. The small cabin acts like some kind of compression chamber. The result? Punch up the wazoo!


----------



## SoundJunkie (Dec 3, 2008)

analogrocker said:


> ^^ See, I think that's why a truck would make for the perfect vehicle for a system. I mentioned this once and people said I was crazy and that a pickup truck is bad idea for a system. I don't see it that way. For one, the cabin is so much smaller compared to a car that the sound will be more up front. The small cabin acts like some kind of compression chamber. The result? Punch up the wazoo!


Well....technically it's a small SUV

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Danometal (Nov 16, 2009)

SoundJunkie said:


> Mine will beat you up! Pair of Dynaudio MW172's (8" mb) in front doors IB crossed at 63hz and getting 340 watts each. That combined with a pair of 13" Focal 33KX subs on 1200 watts and tuned to seem like they are on my hood
> 
> Anyone that has been in my truck for a demo can attest to the tight, fast chest thump this system has.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


I would love to hear this. That sounds pretty brutal for door speakers.


----------



## DanP315 (Oct 8, 2012)

I view my system more as an ass kicker then a chest puncher


----------



## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

analogrocker said:


> ^^ See, I think that's why a truck would make for the perfect vehicle for a system. I mentioned this once and people said I was crazy and that a pickup truck is bad idea for a system. I don't see it that way. For one, the cabin is so much smaller compared to a car that the sound will be more up front. The small cabin acts like some kind of compression chamber. The result? Punch up the wazoo!


Trucks might be ok but an extended cab truck has a funny effect of being a nearly perfect cube, this has an effect that near the center of the cabin you actually get a null area standing wave and it gets quieter there. Your head just happens to sit at this quiet area.


----------



## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

Phase......I get the up front kick by playing with phase. It sounds like the subs are up front. I am using a 2way with 2 jl10w6's and it is heavenly.

Most dsp's give you the ability to play with phase and some amps do. There's the old fashion way too but I have mine set at like 157. The ability to adjust it in incriments helps.

Midbass helps a lot too but I am only using a 6.5 crossed at 80hz.

Trucks sound good. I like the height. I prefer a suv over anything though. I had a small car before, a G35, and it sounded good but it was no where near as good as my outlander is now. But this is just my opinion. P/u trucks with console subs rock.....


----------



## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

I would like to try 2 10" or a 15" in the doors for ****z and giggles. I have a 10" on 240 watts lpf 250hz 24db right now. Experimenting w/ 3-way horn setup. I was thinking the 15" Peavey black widows. 5" mount depth. hehe. Don't think I could make it work but would love to just try it and see the results, a 12" can though. 
My system has a heavy bottom end and should be even better after I get the new wall finished. 4 18" tuned to 25 hz on 1500 watts; although during the time I haven't had any crazy bass I find myself enjoying the time without it more and more. It is nice to have it and not need it rather than to need/want it and not have it though. The last wall punched in the chest, blurred vision, etc.


----------



## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

TheScottishBear said:


> I would like to try 2 10" or a 15" in the doors for ****z and giggles. I have a 10" on 240 watts lpf 250hz 24db right now. Experimenting w/ 3-way horn setup. I was thinking the 15" Peavey black widows. 5" mount depth. hehe. Don't think I could make it work but would love to just try it and see the results, a 12" can though.
> My system has a heavy bottom end and should be even better after I get the new wall finished. 4 18" tuned to 25 hz on 1500 watts; although during the time I haven't had any crazy bass I find myself enjoying the time without it more and more. It is nice to have it and not need it rather than to need/want it and not have it though. The last wall punched in the chest, blurred vision, etc.


15s? Damn. You don't mess around!


----------



## basshead (Sep 12, 2008)

Currently getting the punch in the chess with my 8 in the doors, is that punch enough for me... nope

So I got 2 B&C 10NW64 (4 ohms version) on my desk right now and i'm trying to figure out what to do with them.


----------



## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

Chest punch seems to be a matter of setup. Lift your subwoofer low pass to 80Hz or higher, put the subwoofer into a high qtc box (smaller than optimal) and you may get some good punch. Additional eq settings may get you there. I am not a fan of this though. Besides not being true to recording, exaggerated punch can get fatiguing fast.


----------



## nickalways4u (Dec 31, 2011)

I have the subs hitting at the chest.Running Rainbow profi kicks 2 way(Passive) in front and a pair of Seas L26ROY Sealed of a Mosconi AS 100.4.The fronts get 100 watts each where as the Subs are running at bridged 2 ohms load roughly 500 watts.The Hu is a Panasonic Bottlehead.

Car is a Toyota SUV


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Managed to get through T/A and Phase. 6.5" crossed @ 80Hz 24dB/oct - sub crossed @ 63Hz 18dB/oct - Punch in the chest and no pulling back ever 
If the song calls for it, I don't need to turn it all up to get it - really a nice feeling 

Not all songs gives you that punch in the chest feeling, I like to tune using "No Woman no Cry - Live" from "Legend: The Best Of Bob Marley And The Wailers" <-- get it right there and then you can listen to your best rock CDs lol

Dynamic cues comes from the 1kHz and 4kHz range so focus on that too  

Kelvin


----------



## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> Managed to get through T/A and Phase. 6.5" crossed @ 80Hz 24dB/oct - sub crossed @ 63Hz 18dB/oct - Punch in the chest and no pulling back ever
> If the song calls for it, I don't need to turn it all up to get it - really a nice feeling


What type of 6.5" mids? Pro? Something stout like the Anarchies?



subwoofery said:


> Not all songs gives you that punch in the chest feeling


I don't assume a song is supposed to punch in the chest unless I've actually felt it do so on a reference system of some kind.

I have a lowly pair of Yamaha bookshelf speakers in my house that I love the sound of. They have 8" woofers, 4" mids and 3/4" tweeters . They are in sealed enclosures. Those little bookshelf speakers punch hard with flat EQ! I use them as a reference. I don't care that they are low budget - they friggin' rock! It's how I want all of my systems to sound. I use 3 tracks that I know punch in the chest when testing out any system. If they fail to punch on a given system, then it obviously needs work.


----------



## chaser9478 (Aug 16, 2011)

Bob Marley is great for tuning, ecspecially that alblum. I also like DMB Say good bye, the live and studio versions. The flutes and drums then the guitar explodes.


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

analogrocker said:


> What type of 6.5" mids? Pro? Something stout like the Anarchies?
> 
> In my old car, Focal 165 K3P (2003 version) - in my girlfriend's car ID X65
> Nothing stout really
> ...


Kelvin


----------



## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

When I am in my vehicle with the stereo in it which is rare anymore because of work, I have a huge impact in the chest on lots of music I listen to. But I am a 80's hair metal fan so it seems that a lot of that music had a lot of 160-40 hertz added. 

I run Dayton Rs225's in the door with gobs of power. I always recommend going with the biggest woofer you can. Especially if you have a lot of sub.

Not sure if it helped but I TA off the sub as the farthest speaker. I know many say it doesn't help but it didn't hurt either.


----------



## niceguy (Mar 12, 2006)

Mine doesn't but I sat in a guy's S10 blowthrough that did....4 15" Adire tempests with a man sized port lol. Punched you in the chest and tried to steal the air from your lungs!


----------



## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

If I play Young Lust off of Pink Floyds The Wall I can get a hell of a kick that seems to hit me in the face. Nothing crazy, but I can't expect much from 120 watts on two old school Kickers.


----------



## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

basshead said:


> Currently getting the punch in the chess with my 8 in the doors, is that punch enough for me... nope
> 
> So I got 2 B&C 10NW64 (4 ohms version) on my desk right now and i'm trying to figure out what to do with them.












Lift up your carpets!


----------



## oilman (Feb 21, 2012)

I would say my car now has a good kick in the chest, but I can feel it in my legs too. Coming from a light 6.5 dual 8 ohm driver to the 9" AT 4ohm was a huge difference in midbass attack. 

Before









After


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Bookmark


----------



## D-Bass (Apr 27, 2012)

my system punches everything. strong midbass and 3.5kW on eight 12's has that effect though.


----------



## _Nomad_ (Dec 11, 2012)

robert_wrath said:


> Donkey Punches!


----------



## Hertz5400LincolnLS (Mar 29, 2010)

My a-pillar setup in my Lincoln LS punched me in the chest. Scanspeak 10F's and a/d/s px concept tweets with about 100wpc. Only front stage that I personally have ran that has given me that sensation and all while not being very fatiguing. 










Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Rrrrolla (Nov 13, 2008)

Mines pretty nuts NOW. I had very little with 5.25 IB in the doors, so I bought a pair of pro audio 6.5" B&C 6ndl44's and put them in small vented enclosures in the doors tuned to about 70hz with 3 inch ports. Sounds like nothing I have ever heard before as far as midbass attack goes. WELL worth the effort. If I put my hand over the vents, the midbass pretty much disappears. Size matters for sure, but porting was the best thing I have ever done to a midbass.


----------



## Whiskeyface (May 27, 2012)

punch in the chest? yes. 

this also does the trick. 

strapping young lad-zen

Strapping Young Lad - Zen - YouTube


----------



## _Nomad_ (Dec 11, 2012)

Whiskeyface said:


> punch in the chest? yes.
> 
> this also does the trick.
> 
> ...


----------



## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Rrrrolla said:


> Mines pretty nuts NOW. I had very little with 5.25 IB in the doors, so I bought a pair of pro audio 6.5" B&C 6ndl44's and put them in small vented enclosures in the doors tuned to about 70hz with 3 inch ports. Sounds like nothing I have ever heard before as far as midbass attack goes. WELL worth the effort. If I put my hand over the vents, the midbass pretty much disappears. Size matters for sure, but porting was the best thing I have ever done to a midbass.


Cool! Do you have an build and/or complete pics?


----------



## Whiskeyface (May 27, 2012)

_Nomad_ said:


>


lulz. the CD version sounds a milllion times better in the bass department. could be these garbage compy speakers with a 6.5 inch sub.


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

My front stage used to kick me in the chest until one of my CDT 6x9s used from 80-300 took a dump on me. Now all I can get is a kick in the eyeballs from the Massive RK6 tweeters mounted in the door panel.


----------



## Prophecy (Jan 16, 2013)

I e only been in one car that I felt in my chest it was loaded with 20 memphis 12's


----------



## rmoltis (Sep 4, 2012)

i can definitely feel it in my chest. makes me feel like i cant breath or like my heart is off beat. i think it is because the airspace inside my car is so small. my stereo gets even louder as soon as i open my windows. but i cant listen to it up loud i tend to "think" its getting quieter so i turn it up more only to find out after i exit the vehicle that im half deaf with ringing in my ears for hours.


----------



## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

Whiskeyface said:


> punch in the chest? yes.
> 
> this also does the trick.
> 
> ...


Nice! Hoglan (the drummer) didn't use a click track for that album; the guy's amazing. If you get a chance watch some of his instructional drumming videos.

For anyone who hasn't experienced LOUD kicks, here ya go:

Cerebral Bore "Maniacal Miscreation" [Official Music Video] - YouTube

Not exactly my cup of metal, and the aren't realistic drums at all, but they have to be the best example of what double bass can feel like.


----------



## DA9Audio (Nov 30, 2012)

Bandpassed Dreadnaught in a 528i...1.1kwatts..plenty of chest kick.


----------



## Datsubishi (Jan 9, 2012)

Fricasseekid said:


> My front stage used to kick me in the chest until one of my CDT 6x9s used from 80-300 took a dump on me. Now all I can get is a kick in the eyeballs from the Massive RK6 tweeters mounted in the door panel.


Which CDTs, what kind of enclosure and what kind of power were you running? I have some CF 6x9s I haven't got around to using yet. Have you used the RK mids? That was the other option I as thinking about since it would bolt straight in and all of my stuff is Massive and CDT.


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Datsubishi said:


> Which CDTs, what kind of enclosure and what kind of power were you running? I have some CF 6x9s I haven't got around to using yet. Have you used the RK mids? That was the other option I as thinking about since it would bolt straight in and all of my stuff is Massive and CDT.


These:
http://www.woofersetc.com/p-9874-hd-690cf-cdt-audio-6x9-carbon-fiber-subwoofer-cast-mid-woofer.aspx

They were installed IB and used as dedicated midbass (80-300). The massive RK set handled everything from 300 up. I had them running off of two channels on my MB Quart Q4.150. But they weren't getting the full 150 watts, I had the gains dialed back a good bit.


----------



## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Interesting read here. I plan on using some larger drivers in the next install, and am enjoying this info.


----------



## Datsubishi (Jan 9, 2012)

Thanks Fricasee, one of my future plans includes something similar to that using CKs. Lookin for more kick


----------



## 5xkmw (Mar 1, 2009)

I have achieved a great front stage with good punch (Smashing Pumpkins really shines:laugh. I have 6.5" memphis components, and 4" Morel woofers in door pods in my Superduty. I run 140 rms to the memphis mid, and 240 rms to the Morels. The Morels seemed to be the difference maker. I cut the low end on them off at 110 hz, and run them up to around 1000 hz. This setup really blends well with my sub stage. As far as vibrating seats localizing sound, I have 2 bass shakers in the seat base and back and they seem to enforce that chest kick.


----------



## briansz (Feb 5, 2008)

The '05 Elantra with a CV Vega series 15 in 1.6cf sealed had it in spades. Just abusive, very concert-like for hard rock and metal. Needed some low boost, however.


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

I sort of skimmed through this thread, so sorry if this has been posted before.

Chest punch IMO comes from several things:
- Obviously, source material. Note that I don't listen to this very often, but chest punch is one of the things I like to test when I hear a system, and Billy Jean is the track I like to use.

- Believe it or not, more power, more midbass drivers, bigger midbass drivers, are usually not the solution, and might even make it worse.

- The chest punch IMO is a combination of sub-bass frequencies, midbass frequencies, and mid/high frequencies (harmonics)

- This is best illustrated if you play a single sine wave at a midbass frequency. You will get no chest punch from that.

- A good chest hit will have a "click" or "pop" to it that is made up of mids and highs.


-> Therefore, time alignment, and a well-balanced system and tune will go a long way. Sometimes, cancellation and modal issues will cause critical frequencies that are part of the harmonics required for that chest kick to be missing. That is a cabin-size dependent issue, but can be kind of worked around with by flipping phase on some drivers.
Adding more midbass drivers, in most cases, will be a lateral move and will not provide a solution to the problem.

Brett, I thought you moved to AZ? You still in town??



There is a difference between CHEST PUNCH and GUT PUNCH. The latter feels more like a visceral experience, or a liver massage or something. This one is caused by sub-bass only, and ported boxes are best at providing that IMO.


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

oca123 said:


> I sort of skimmed through this thread, so sorry if this has been posted before.
> 
> Chest punch IMO comes from several things:
> - Obviously, source material. Note that I don't listen to this very often, but chest punch is one of the things I like to test when I hear a system, and Billy Jean is the track I like to use.
> ...


Finally a good answer  

Yep, you can get punch in the chest with a 5" midbass too  Tune tune tune... 

Kelvin


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Yeah... With midbass woofers, it's really not the size, its how you use it.

That same statement is a lie when applied to penis size.

I also forgot to say that a steep crossover slope between sub-bass and mid-bass can help in some vehicles.

Oh, and... Kelvin... Happy 5000th post!


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

oca123 said:


> Yeah... With midbass woofers, it's really not the size, its how you use it.
> 
> That same statement is a lie when applied to penis size.
> 
> ...


:laugh: good analogy :thumbsup: 

I like to use steep slopes for drivers far apart and shallow ones when they are closer together... Therefore, steep slopes between midbass and subs for me 

5000th!!!!!  Knew I was close but did not notice it until your post lol - Thanks!!!!!

Kelvin


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

So in going with this analogy can we say that when it comes to cone area girth is more important than excursion?


----------



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Anyone who is in PHX area should get a demo from Casey Thorson at Morel from his personal car...

talk about punching in the face...unbelievable...


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> So in going with this analogy can we say that when it comes to cone area girth is more important than excursion?


XmaXXXXX and girth, naturally.


----------



## emperorjj1 (Sep 10, 2008)

i get pretty good punch but depends on source material. I can feel it without the subbass on at all but not as good


----------



## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Running two Type R 8" flush mounted to cement board / fiberglass baffles in the oem kick panel area. They are fed a total of 420 watts mono from 25hz subsonic filter to 200 hz, 24dB crossover. 5" inch neodymium Celestions, that I got from PE for $8, pick it up from 200hz to 2500hz.

Yes they thwallop. Beginning of Gorillaz "Stylo" is a good test.

I need to get the 5" Celestions into actual enclosures and not towels. Would love to feed the Rs 400 watts each stereo and push them to 250-300hz.


----------



## krisfnbz (Apr 30, 2008)

I dont feel a punch at all unless my subwoofer is on, and its not in the chest. I have my mids crossed pretty high because I listen to alot of hard rock/rap.


----------



## xtremevette (Apr 14, 2011)

From what I have read recently in my newly acquired Car Audio and Electronics magazines (thanks again Reloaded), subs don't really "punch you in the chest". It is more the midranges/midbass drivers that do the "punching" feeling many talk about. A kickdrum solo is a perfect example. The frequency is just too high for a sub to punch. I think the mids "punch" and the sub "pounds" lol. Guess you could say the midbasses "kick" haha.:laugh:

Seriously though...all from what I read...and makes perfect sense to me.


----------



## emperorjj1 (Sep 10, 2008)

yup i can get my 15s to sorta punch on 1 maybe 2 songs for a slight period of time but theres several that the midbass's punch


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

I find that with a properly setup midbass range I get that chest thwack from many percussion instruments including kick bass, toms, and snare drums. It's the attack that your looking for.


----------



## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

There's a big difference between punch and snap.

Punch is lower, snap is higher (upper midrange). When I talk about punch, I'm talking about the kind of impact you would get at a rock concert from the bass drum. It hits you so hard in the chest that you can hardly breathe! That's what I want. I don't want just a light tap on my chest.

According to a knowledgeable person in the pro audio world, you need at least 110dB in the 50 Hz - 90 Hz band to get that concert-like punch. 110dB @ 50 or even 60 Hz is no easy feat to achieve up front in a car. You need a gobs of power and a lot of cone area and/or excursion to get that. Relying on trunk mounted subs to reproduce this range just won't have the same effect. It's hitting you in the back; not the chest. That's no fun


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

analogrocker said:


> There's a big difference between punch and snap.
> 
> Punch is lower, snap is higher (upper midrange). When I talk about punch, I'm talking about the kind of impact you would get at a rock concert from the bass drum. It hits you so hard in the chest that you can hardly breathe! That's what I want. I don't want just a light tap on my chest.
> 
> According to a knowledgeable person in the pro audio world, you need at least 110dB in the 50 Hz - 90 Hz band to get that concert-like punch. 110dB @ 50 or even 60 Hz is no easy feat to achieve up front in a car. You need a gobs of power and a lot of cone area and/or excursion to get that. Relying on trunk mounted subs to reproduce this range just won't have the same effect. It's hitting you in the back; not the chest. That's no fun


1st

110 db @ 50-60 hz is not hard to achieve. The typical boomy small sealed box in the average high schoolers trunk achieves that. The bump in the response above 60 hz is exactly what cause the "boominess". 

2nd

How can you say it is hitting you in the back when we are talking about sound waves at least double the length of the car cabin?


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

analogrocker said:


> 110dB @ 50 or even 60 Hz is no easy feat to achieve up front in a car. You need a gobs of power and a lot of cone area and/or excursion to get that. Relying on trunk mounted subs to reproduce this range just won't have the same effect. It's hitting you in the back; not the chest. That's no fun


It's not that hard, honestly. Your biggest enemy will be cancellation due to phase issues.
Also, in reference to "gobs of power, a lot of cone area and/or excursion" - yes, that's the easy way, though not in that order.

high sensitivity drivers, with decent xmax and cone area (8s for example) will make it very easy to get very loud down to 50Hz up front, provided you've done proper t/a so the drivers are not cancelling each other. Power is the least important, as the difference between 200W and 400W is 3db, whereas the sensitivity of drivers for this application varies A LOT more.

But really, this punch is achievable with as little as 5.25s in the front, because our ears cannot really locate sounds under 80Hz (unless there are physical giveaways, like seats vibrating, or air moving) so you could theoretically cross your 5.25s over in that range, have most of the air pressure come from your large subwoofers in the trunk, yet imaging cues and higher order harmonics will come from the 5.25s, and you will have bass upfront. Rattles will completely ruin this effect though, which is why it's easier to go with 8s up front.

I dont know how large of a car we are talking about here anyway, but for a typical sedan, cabin gain will also come into play, making your job even easier, as
1) the smaller the cabin, the higher the "cutoff point" where sound waves start being larger than your listening space, meaning you can't locate them, and
2) +12db/oct all the way down to 20 (cabin gain)

So when you really think about it.... it seems everyone fixes what isn't broken to achieve that punch... going through tons of speakers, etc. when all they would have to do, is fix the rattles, and have someone who knows wtf they're doing select optimal crossover points, time align, and use p-eq to deal with room modes.


EDIT: by the way, 110db at 60Hz-90Hz doesn't mean you simply boost that range and leave everything else the same. It means the rest of the system has to be able to follow. 110db at 60Hz-90Hz clean, with everything above 300hz driven into clipping, will destroy most imaging cues and you will get that thump, but in your brain.


----------



## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

ZR 800's in the dash. That's your donkey kick!


----------



## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

oca123 said:


> high sensitivity drivers, with decent xmax and cone area (8s for example) will make it very easy to get very loud down to 50Hz up front, provided you've done proper t/a so the drivers are not cancelling each other. Power is the least important, as the difference between 200W and 400W is 3db, whereas the sensitivity of drivers for this application varies A LOT more.


I love high sensitivity drivers (read: pro audio drivers) but here's the problem: most PA drivers drop off way before 50 or 60 Hz in a typical sealed or IB arrangement. The Fs on them is too high and the Qts is just way too low. Model them up - you'll see. You could fabricate ported enclosures for them if you have the space up front to help them reach lower, or EQ them but then you have xmax to worry about still. Most small (< 10") PA drivers don't have much xmax. IMO, smaller PA drivers aren't very well suited for bass in a car. 80 Hz and up? Sure. I see a lot of people complaining that PA drivers don't reach that low. I have to agree, but I also don't expect them to reach low.



> But really, this punch is achievable with as little as 5.25s in the front, because our ears cannot really locate sounds under 80Hz (unless there are physical giveaways, like seats vibrating, or air moving) so you could theoretically cross your 5.25s over in that range, have most of the air pressure come from your large subwoofers in the trunk, yet imaging cues and higher order harmonics will come from the 5.25s, and you will have bass upfront. Rattles will completely ruin this effect though, which is why it's easier to go with 8s up front.


I've read about people getting massive punch from 5.25s, but I've just never heard it in the real world. I'd love to see that. I don't know how 5.25s could do it without bottoming out quickly. Are they using multiples/arrays or what?


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

analogrocker said:


> I love high sensitivity drivers (read: pro audio drivers) but here's the problem: most PA drivers drop off way before 50 or 60 Hz in a typical sealed or IB arrangement. The Fs on them is too high and the Qts is just way too low. Model them up - you'll see. You could fabricate ported enclosures for them if you have the space up front to help them reach lower, or EQ them but then you have xmax to worry about still. Most small (< 10") PA drivers don't have much xmax. IMO, smaller PA drivers aren't very well suited for bass in a car. 80 Hz and up? Sure. I see a lot of people complaining that PA drivers don't reach that low. I have to agree, but I also don't expect them to reach low.
> 
> 
> 
> I've read about people getting massive punch from 5.25s, but I've just never heard it in the real world. I'd love to see that. I don't know how 5.25s could do it without bottoming out quickly. Are they using multiples/arrays or what?


There's quite a few <10" PA drivers that have good Xmax specs... Heck the legendary JBL 2118H only has 3mm of Xmax, an FS of around 85Hz yet can achieve upfront midbass that can whack you in the chest that most car audio drivers could only dream of... 
Check usspeaker and you'll see there's a couple of 8" drivers with +7mm of Xmax <-- PA drivers don't have inflated Xmax numbers either 

But yeah, I agree with those suggesting tuning as the primary source of punch in the chest feeling... 

Am having fun tuning a system in my missies car with Focal Polyglass upfront and OEM coaxial in the bottom of the rear door - I managed to have a punch feeling (not a full on punch but a nice punch feeling in front of my chest - not from the back) with my rear doors HP around 100Hz 24dB/oct and *NO* sub 

Kelvin


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Anal OG Rocker - there are some PA drivers that I had modeled that would work well in IB as midbass drivers down to 60Hz. One of them was a Beyma unit, another one was a Faital, and there is a Pyle but good luck finding the T/S params for that one. All are 8 inchers. Parts-Express has some, USSpeaker has better selection, and there is MCM Electronics but good luck browsing their site and comparing T/S parameters. If anyone knows of more places, please post them.
PA drivers have a very unique dry sound and I think they are a very viable option here.

I think 5.25 can work with careful xover slope and point selection - basically flowing with the driver's natural rolloff. Due to the way our ear works, and depending on the size of the cabin, this would need to happen around 80Hz, where subwoofers would start picking up.
When time alignment is done properly (and this is actually not easy at low frequencies because you can't just align them based on how far they are from your ears) you can use shallow slopes, and obtain great results, however since this is difficult I find that using very shallow slopes is a way to cheat and get that chest punch. Unfortunately that might be hard with 5.25 as they cannot play down to 60Hz.

So yeah, 5.25 are at the extreme end, but 6.5s are very reasonable.
I also suspect that xmax is not as important as we may think, especially when crossing over at 70Hz. Inductance might play a part. I have heard low xmax drivers that gave powerful chest kicks. Again I think this is due to harmonics.

It's getting late and I might start saying dumb things if I haven't already so I'll stop now.


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Bikinpunk started a thread about a year ago (maybe more) about midbass attack. I can't find it for the life of me, but the consensus seemed to be that the intense front wave (the attack) of most percussion instruments actually starts upwards around 300hz. There was even a great chart posted that included most all the musical instruments and what pass bands they play in. It was due to this thread and Lycans thread about midbass arrays that I decided to install 6x9s in the rear doors of my truck. I ran them from 80-320hz with 12db slope on the LP and 24 on the HP. I found exactly what I was looking for.

If anyone remembers these threads and could share links I'd appreciate it. I'd love to reread them.


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

I agree, and I could probably prove it. I mess around with DAW software and synthesizers and whatnot, and my studio monitors are perfectly able to kick me in the chest. When creating kicks using a synthesizer, you have to add a high frequency component on the attack.
So to reproduce this properly, you need good t/a and your midwoofers,subs and tweeters, or mids/midbass/tweeters/subs need to be balanced so that the frequency response is as smooth as possible (ie it doesnt have to be flat by any means, but no peaks, no dips) so no harmonics will be missing.
I am not senile and I'm aware that I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but....
Good installation (no rattles)
well-balanced system, time alignment/EQ done properly, optimal xover slopes and points

these are the key, and i know a lot of us dont like to hear this (I personally cut up the doors of a bentley to fit some 8s, so I know) but they are a lot more important than giant midbass drivers, which can actually work against you if hte rest of the system isn't matched.


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Fricasseekid said:


> Bikinpunk started a thread about a year ago (maybe more) about midbass attack. I can't find it for the life of me, but the consensus seemed to be that the intense front wave (the attack) of most percussion instruments actually starts upwards around 300hz. There was even a great chart posted that included most all the musical instruments and what pass bands they play in. It was due to this thread and Lycans thread about midbass arrays that I decided to install 6x9s in the rear doors of my truck. I ran them from 80-320hz with 12db slope on the LP and 24 on the HP. I found exactly what I was looking for.
> 
> If anyone remembers these threads and could share links I'd appreciate it. I'd love to reread them.


Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network 

Now let's talk 

Kelvin


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network
> 
> Now let's talk
> 
> Kelvin


What's left to talk about? This chart confirms what a few of us have been saying since the start of this thread.


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Fricasseekid said:


> What's left to talk about? This chart confirms what a few of us have been saying since the start of this thread.


What does the chart tell you? Other than kicks, tympanis and toms fundamentals are roughly between 60Hz and 500Hz, that cymbals have harmonics up to 16kHz, etc... 
Looking at the big picture, what can you tell us?  

I do believe that tuning is the very first thing to get punch - I'm pretty sure people can agree with that... What else? 

Kelvin


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Well the "punch clearly happens above 100hz close to where the subs and midbass are likely to blend together. And the "whack" which I believe is a key component to the punch/attack happens well into the midrange around 1000hz. So without speakers that blend and work well together via system design and tuning it all turns into mush. 

Am I missing something?


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

naw, i think the OP's question has been answered long ago, and we've just been :dead_horse:


----------



## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

In regards to that frequency chart, remember that applies for unamplified, unprocessed instruments. The kick drum at a rock concert is heavily amplified and heavily processed. Drums in general are tuned WAY lower than they'd sound by themselves.


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

It is a chart that a recording engineer would use when EQ-ing a mix. I've seen it on the wall in some recording studios (though I would hope the engineer doing the mastering doesn't need to refer to it)
By the time we get the recording, in the case of a live performance, I think the engineer has already boosted the appropriate bands, if the amplified bass was not part of the original recording. Therefore, the kick drum has already been boosted quite a bit.

What I'm awkwardly trying to say, is that the frequency graph above is not for us to use to set our EQ as if you use it for the instruments you are pretty much trying to do EQ for each song, which is not your job as the listener.
I think it is useful to reference which frequency ranges are responsible for which tonal characteristics.
So keeping that in mind, if I look at Percussions/Kick, I see this:
Bass frequency range 60-250 (which we call midbass over here)
Increase to make sound "fatter", decrease to make it "thinner", too much sounds boomy.

So far so good, and yes, at a concert, there is often extra boost in the frequency range where the kick is rooted... but I know that they also will boost some related frequencies.... so if boosting the kick, they might end up boosting around 150Hz, and then at 300Hz, and then, say, at 4800Hz.

I have the flu so bear with me as I'm trying to make sense


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Fricasseekid said:


> Well the "punch clearly happens above 100hz close to where the subs and midbass are likely to blend together. And the "whack" which I believe is a key component to the punch/attack happens well into the midrange around 1000hz. So without speakers that blend and work well together via system design and tuning it all turns into mush.
> 
> Am I missing something?


Sorry I completely forgot to reply lol 

Well not missing but I just wanted to add something: (from Matt Bogart)








In the ^ above ^ chart, you can see where most of the instrument "sound" lies (fundamental cues and harmonics). Matt explained much better than me so please read the comment below the chart. 

IMO, the 130Hz - 6kHz range is where most of you that want punch should focus on - get timing right, no big peaks, smooth transition from drivers to drivers and your levels right, you'll surely get that punch your looking for 

If I may add, to play this range at a realistically level, you need cone area - yeah I know what I said  You can get the punch with a 5.25" driver but here I'm talking about cheer volume... 

Realistic level = cone area 
This is why I'm all for a big midrange driver playing as much as it can (and if you can below beaming unless you've got HAT drivers ) 

Winslow stated many times that a 6" midrange is the minimum and I agree with this - that's why I'm using horns 

Kelvin


----------



## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

Great information in this thread. If it wasn't 14 degrees outside I'd run out and start messing with different drivers. Been meaning to fool around with some 6x9 mids to try and take some pressure off of my 4.5 inch drivers. I get plenty of punch out of the 4.5s but it's all in my leg since they are mounted in kicks.

Damn, it's cold out there.


----------



## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

oca123 said:


> By the time we get the recording, in the case of a live performance, I think the engineer has already boosted the appropriate bands, if the amplified bass was not part of the original recording. Therefore, the kick drum has already been boosted quite a bit.
> 
> What I'm awkwardly trying to say, is that the frequency graph above is not for us to use to set our EQ as if you use it for the instruments you are pretty much trying to do EQ for each song, which is not your job as the listener.
> I think it is useful to reference which frequency ranges are responsible for which tonal characteristics.
> ...


I see what you're getting at, but it wasn't exactly my point. Yes, when you get any kind of music that you can play in your car, the engineer has already done whatever tweaks he sees fit. People in this thread have been commenting how they like the hard punch in the chest that you get from a rock concert (I'm one of these people). My point is that this feeling is coming from thousands of watts going to stacks of 18"+ subs. Yes, frequencies throughout the spectrum contribute to the sound, but it's that amount of air movement that's really punching you. You'd still feel it even if all the other speakers were turned off.

So if someone is sitting in their car trying to get a bit more punch out of the kick drum in a song, pointing to that chart and saying the kick drum frequency is 60 or 80-250Hz or something may be less than helpful, when the kick drum in the recording was tuned to like 40Hz or something.

If you've ever been to a concert and stood close enough to hear the raw instruments while they're doing a sound check, you know what I mean. They'll often hit each drum a few times with and without the PA on. That's when you notice that the PA isn't simply amplifying whatever sound the drum naturally makes, but that there's some heavy tuning going on too.

Back when I was a kid and had a drumset in my room, I was always pissed that no matter what I did, it sounded nothing like Metallica's drumset. Then later I realized that no drumset can sound anything like that... until you mic and process it.


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

strakele said:


> Back when I was a kid and had a drumset in my room, I was always pissed that no matter what I did, it sounded nothing like Metallica's drumset. Then later I realized that no drumset can sound anything like that... until you mic and process it.


Oh, for THAT kind of punch, you need a 15'' sub in the footwell area on each side, or a wall of subs in the back.... basically, what you're talking about is ear-damaging sheer air movement.
I am not big on rock concerts so I don't have much experience with these, but I stood next to Howitzer cannons a few times. The way I would describe it, is the sudden movement of air almost sucks the air out of your lungs...and then you feel that punch on your chest.
The one time I didn't have ear protection, the hairs in my ears tickled until the next day.


----------



## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

That not being able to breathe feeling is what you get at a big concert with a low tuned kick. Or bass guitar. It's awesome.

Wouldn't subject myself to it without earplugs though!


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

I think a lot of the answers here are based on our own struggles. I went back and read the OP, and the question itself is too vague. The poster's name, midbass_deprived, led me to believe that we were talking about midbass here, but the question could very well mean sub-bass as well.
The way I see it, the kind of feeling you describe Strakele is more than getting punched in the chest. It is a visceral experience, and to me it feels more like getting punched everywhere all at once while getting hit by a car, whereas a localized chest punch is more indicative of a midbass kick.
I was playing around with my system today, and I have both 15s disconnected, and a single 8'' XLS woofer installed. With a little bit of tuning, I am able to feel like I am getting punched in the chest, though that feeling is not as pronounced as it is when subs are hooked up.
Maybe the answer involves more than just pure sound.


----------



## STROKD (Jan 24, 2013)

midbass.deprived said:


> Very few systems I've heard actually give that sensation. Does yours? Mine does not and I am working to improve that.


what about stopping your heart and causing heart beat arythmia? Then you know you got some bass... although it does sorta hurt and can kill you, literally. Luckily I was very healthy from 16-20 when I was a bass junkie.:laugh:


----------



## jt_buck (Jan 25, 2013)

I just got rid of my 2 Fi BL 18's in 14.6 cubes @ 27-28 hz on roughly 2400w rms, that thing punched you in the chest. And it would play below 20 hz.


----------



## STROKD (Jan 24, 2013)

jt_buck said:


> I just got rid of my 2 Fi BL 18's in 14.6 cubes @ 27-28 hz on roughly 2400w rms, that thing punched you in the chest. And it would play below 20 hz.


holy hell i bet it sounds like an earthquake driving around... that sounds awesome sauce :surprised:


----------



## jt_buck (Jan 25, 2013)

STROKD said:


> holy hell i bet it sounds like an earthquake driving around... that sounds awesome sauce :surprised:


Yep, broke my hatch, had to get it welded back. I had a 300 amp alt charging at 15.1v (external reg.) and 1 batcap 3k up front and 3 2k's in the back, didn't drop below 14v. Sunroof sealed off, a lot of .5 MDF, loctite pl premium, and audio technix deadner. Before I had my alt or sunroof sealed up, burped a 147 @ 35 hz, drop into high 11's. I was over a 145 at 27 hz. I never got it metered after my alt and roof work but I almost guarantee it was 150+ @ 35. The lows were just stupid. I got middle fingers, cursed at, thumbs up, people yelling across traffic to show their love/hate....ah the glory days.


----------



## chijioke penny (Mar 22, 2007)

I'm hoping mine punches and kicks me in the throat!!! I'll lwill be running a pair LMS-Ultra 5400 18″ Driver powered off two Sundown Audio SAZ-3500D and 2prs of 10"mid/woofers per door!!! (may have Two TRU SledgeHammers up for sale if anyone is interested)


----------



## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

chijioke penny said:


> I'm hoping mine punches and kicks me in the throat!!! I'll lwill be running a pair LMS-Ultra 5400 18″ Driver powered off two Sundown Audio SAZ-3500D and 2prs of 10"mid/woofers per door!!! (may have Two TRU SledgeHammers up for sale if anyone is interested)


I think you might like this


8 LMS ULTRA 5400s powered by 4 FP14000s - YouTube


----------



## chijioke penny (Mar 22, 2007)

yeah, i've looked at that guys whole set-up on the A/V forums!!! (it's pretty insane!!!!) I've been out of the car audio game for a couple of yrs doing Bodybuilding... i knew it was time to return when i started thinking my GF bose mazda system sounded awesome!!!  so, i've just been trolling the car audio forums, getting ideas and buying more equipment getting for my return!!!


----------



## Rrrrolla (Nov 13, 2008)

LOL, Iv ben off the boards doing th eact same thing. Weird. I hete Mr Atlantic Canada title myself. You?


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

^Woah! Mr. Spammy McSpamster here! ^


----------



## Rrrrolla (Nov 13, 2008)

LOL! thought he might have been a competitor, might even know the guy. We have boards similar to the car audio boards. Sorry boss.


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Rrrrolla said:


> LOL! thought he might have been a competitor, might even know the guy. We have boards similar to the car audio boards. Sorry boss.


Wtf are you talking about?


----------



## Rrrrolla (Nov 13, 2008)

buddy said he took a break from car audio to persue bodybuilding for a while. So did I. Then u said something about spamming which I thought was towards me, maybe not. Thought u were talking to me so I replied. I should have pm'd him, my mistake. This is car audio, not bodybuilding, sorry to the OP for f'ing up his thread. It's a great topic!


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

whoa.


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Rrrrolla said:


> buddy said he took a break from car audio to persue bodybuilding for a while. So did I. Then u said something about spamming which I thought was towards me, maybe not. Thought u were talking to me so I replied. I should have pm'd him, my mistake. This is car audio, not bodybuilding, sorry to the OP for f'ing up his thread. It's a great topic!


Sorry. Your comment seemed completely unrelated. I guess I wasn't following the discussion very well.


----------



## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

I think alot of people are confusing midbass with subwoofer impact. 

I am talking about "up front" bass and "up front" impact, or the illusion thereof.

To get those two above items, takes BOTH a good sub to fill in the lows (but not be localized) and solid mids up front that are in proper phase with each other. You can have multiple midbass drivers, and if they are of phase and poorly setup as far as crossovers, then it's going to suck.

I am new to the SQ field, and I have been learning at an exponential rate, and still have barely scratched the surface.

I can tell you this though...I only have a single sealed 12" sub getting ~400w, and a pair of HAT Imagine 6.5" with ~125w to each, and my car has solid midbass, impact, and the bass is up front all the time (except on certain ****ty rap music). It didn't come free though, as I ended up changing polarity on the left door mid and tweet, sub, along with careful crossover tuning, to get it right. 

Also, for those that didn't, sealing and deadening the door properly is HUGE for proper midbass and impact. Gaping holes behind the door trim panel will ruin any other efforts. 

On a side note, I love this forum, it's loaded with technical info, experience, and pros that know WTF they are talking about.

FWIW, my Imagines are crossed at 85hz @12db, and the sub is at 80hz @30db (chained x-overs of 18 and 12, don't ask, working on that).


----------



## Mlstrass (Apr 22, 2006)

Interesting thread. I'm far from an SQ guy, have a LOUD musical/demo set up. 

Doors have 4 6.5's and 2 15's each side and I run 6 18's in a 6th order. Just playing the 6.5's I feel a lot of punch in the chest, even more with the 15's added in. Playing the subs it's not so much of a tight punch as it is a kick in the chest. Just a much more violent feeling. 

You don't localize anything at that level, but it's obviously far from an SQ set up...

Patrice Rushen - Forget Me Nots....I consider that punch. Slayer - Dead Skin Mask will beat you to death in my ride.


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Mlstrass said:


> Doors have 4 6.5's and 2 15's each side and I run 6 18's in a 6th order. Just playing the 6.5's I feel a lot of punch in the chest, even more with the 15's added in.















Mlstrass said:


> Playing the subs it's not so much of a tight punch as it is a kick in the chest.


A kick in the chest...... hmmmm... yeah... by optimus ****ing prime.



Mlstrass said:


> Just a much more violent feeling


akin to getting raped by optimus prime's fists.


tomorrow morning I will see that I posted this and it will serve as a reminder that posting while drunk after a night out is retarded.


----------



## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

haha, but i do want to see this as well. did i read correctly that you have 15's in the doors?


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

I dont know if they are in the doors, but he said there are 15s up front.
Apart from providing extra air to supplement the A/C, they also provide that feeling of "getting kicked in the chest" (by optimus prime)

The 18s in the 6th order bandpass provide that feeling of "getting violently raped" (by said transformer).


----------



## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

Mlstrass system is the truth. lol My first 160 demo. Here is a video for reference...
Imagine That Car Show Team DOA Mike Demo Part 6 - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=NdDa2PWcOh0&feature=fvwp
I wanted to tap no lie; but am looking forward to hearing it again this summer.


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

TheScottishBear said:


> Mlstrass system is the truth. lol My first 160 demo. Here is a video for reference...
> Imagine That Car Show Team DOA Mike Demo Part 6 - YouTube
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=NdDa2PWcOh0&feature=fvwp
> I wanted to tap no lie; but am looking forward to hearing it again this summer.


What? No sparklers and fireworks?


----------



## exoplasm (Mar 5, 2009)

The punch you in the chest feeling comes from a pronounced midbass frequency range. my brother has 2 ev PA fullrange enclosures and 2 jbl subs with crown amps built into them. the bottem end does not seem very extended but upper bass and mid bass are very loud. feels like ur insides hurt. most car subs play lower and are tuned lower. if you want that feeling put some pa midbasses in your doors.


----------



## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

TheScottishBear said:


> Mlstrass system is the truth. lol My first 160 demo. Here is a video for reference...
> Imagine That Car Show Team DOA Mike Demo Part 6 - YouTube
> Team DOA Mike Demoing at Rockome Gardens - YouTube
> I wanted to tap no lie; but am looking forward to hearing it again this summer.


holy freaking god!


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Hmmm. You could use it to disassemble houses. You know, park in garage, pound, and watch the house slowly turn back into raw materials


----------



## TheScottishBear (Feb 3, 2011)

oca123 said:


> Hmmm. You could use it to disassemble houses. You know, park in garage, pound, and watch the house slowly turn back into raw materials


I was demoing about 40 ft from him at a show and my system was full tilt (147ish) and he was completely drowning me out. It was epic. lol


----------



## indytrucks (Apr 5, 2009)

Fricasseekid said:


> What? No sparklers and fireworks?


If he had any more space they'd be in there. It does have lights though. I was there for a good chunk of Barney's build. It's ridiculously loud and crisp.


----------



## indytrucks (Apr 5, 2009)

And yes, 15's are in the doors. Not sure if he's changed anything since I took these. 



















Over the wall. I believe those are 8's and 6.5's.


----------



## Mlstrass (Apr 22, 2006)

Wow those pics are 3 iterations ago. Had AA CF mids and 12's at the time. 

Latest door set up...


----------



## Mlstrass (Apr 22, 2006)

I will never play opera music ever again...


----------



## indytrucks (Apr 5, 2009)

Hey, I've been gone over a year now. Cut me some slack. Still looks quiet.


----------



## btsteinb (Nov 29, 2011)

Looks like it has potential. To bad all the gay fur and ****ty equipment. You should switch to JL. You could gain a couple db. 

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

btsteinb said:


> Looks like it has potential. To bad all the gay fur and ****ty equipment. You should switch to JL. You could gain a couple db.
> 
> Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


Not at all a fan of this type of wang and bang system but ^this^ should go into the dumbest **** said thread.


----------



## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

btsteinb said:


> You should switch to JL. You could gain a couple db.


Illogical...


----------



## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

Mlstrass said:


> I will never play opera music ever again...


The sound-stage went through the windshield ...:laugh::laugh:


----------



## oilman (Feb 21, 2012)

LoL, yea over there>>>>>>>>>>>


----------



## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

sure does


----------



## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

btsteinb said:


> Looks like it has potential. To bad all the gay fur and ****ty equipment. You should switch to JL. You could gain a couple db.
> 
> Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


We're going to shove your HTC up your ass in about a minute.


----------



## Mlstrass (Apr 22, 2006)

SaturnSL1 said:


> We're going to shove your HTC up your ass in about a minute.


Obvious troll wasn't so obvious I guess. He's a friend of mine


----------



## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

btsteinb said:


> Looks like it has potential. To bad all the gay fur and ****ty equipment. You should switch to JL. You could gain a couple db.
> 
> Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2


Lime colored fake:laugh: fur....... sexy....


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Man, you spl guys are crazy! I recently sat in a Lil civic at a show......he had double mids and tweets in each door, and I think four subs.........said it hit 146......I thought it was way too f#$%+-& loud! I can't imagine sitting in this van, hope you all use hearing protection!


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

what?


----------



## oca123 (Aug 16, 2010)

Victor_inox said:


> Lime colored fake:laugh: fur....... sexy....


Looks like photoshop


----------



## oilman (Feb 21, 2012)

I thought my car hit me in the chests until I heard Larry's Benz and Grayson Mitsubishi. The sub in front of you gives a completely new dynamic (to me)than subs behind you. Even at the lowest volume levels you still get that kick in the chest.


----------



## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Front subs are where it's at :rockon:


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Yup graysons car has great impact, like it so much I can't get trying the same in my car out of my head.......been thinking on it since fall 2012........damn I'm a slacker!


----------



## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Do eeet!


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

I know I should, right? Thinking of trying something different out back and putting one of my 8's in an inclosure similar to yours.........I just have to figure out what to do in the back, kinda want one of those lat 700's to try!


----------



## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

claydo said:


> Man, you spl guys are crazy! I recently sat in a Lil civic at a show......he had double mids and tweets in each door, and I think four subs.........said it hit 146......I thought it was way too f#$%+-& loud! I can't imagine sitting in this van, hope you all use hearing protection!


It's all about DA BASS


----------



## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

yea sure i like bass......but not so much that the interior of the car is all moving 2 to 3 inches, thats just too much!


----------



## SaturnSL1 (Jun 27, 2011)

It's never enough to me lol. I'm jonesing for a van to cram a couple dozen 15s in.

All powered by a Punch 45 for ****s and giggles.


----------



## oilman (Feb 21, 2012)

M.U.Y.A!


----------



## Mlstrass (Apr 22, 2006)

15's in the doors are now playing down to 63Hz with a 12db slope. MUCH more punch out of them, not that I needed it since the 6th order plays up rather high with authority...


----------



## TheHulk9er (Oct 28, 2010)

What vehicle Make and Model? Now that's a mid bass driver! 

Oh, and no, my system does not punch me in the chest. Maybe a tap.


----------



## Navy Chief (Jun 14, 2010)

I have a pair of Dayton 6.5s in the kick panels playing down to 50hz @ 12db and pulls all my bass up front. Running a pair of JL 10W6 V2s behind the rear seats out of phase with 7 msec of delay, bass only pulls to the rear with very heavy low notes.


----------



## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Full size vans are the king of cabin gain and 350 Wrms to a 12" sub in a 1.6 cu ft vented pounds the ground, vibrates my insides and punches me in the gut..

I even have the raised roof for even more interior room an it's heavily upholstered and very damped..

It will completely overwhelm me, no complaints in the Sub Frequency dept..


----------



## ImK'ed (Aug 12, 2013)

I think my system on certain songs does simple system hd900/5 powering pg elite.65cs comps upfront and a bm mkiv in trunk. All in my civic hatch. It seems lile the timing is what made the most difference as ive ran more power more bass in past and it didnt do this but this is my first properly tuned (according to me) system and the bass is upfront and the attack is very quick!


----------



## EricP72 (Mar 23, 2008)

i have had 2 cars that had this and i been in 2 other vehicles that did this. 
my tbird SC that had the canton rs.3 way pullman set in the doors and my 97 mark viii with peerless sls 8" in each door. the tbird had all pg ms amps and 1 ppi 600.2 for the doors, with a passive x-over. hit nioce in the chest, also the subs in that car were 4 12" soundstream spl in a 4th order bandpass.

my second car, the mark VIII, with the sls had it in spades, i ran each woofer with a jbl gto 7001. man!! too bad my sub sucked ass. a pair of spg555

the cars i heard with that chest hitting punch was my buddy 3000gt vr4. i cant remember what he had in the doors, but he had 4 rf t1 10" subs...man! i assume it was cabin gain that helped.

and the best hit came from a chevy s10 extended cab in lombard, il. it was at a shop call mobile fx. had the odr setup, but had dual 6.5" in each door! and 4 10" band pass system that was ported in the bed. the soundstage was on point. i think a few people mentioned t/a. i think that is key! and using drivers like dual 6.5 or a 8" in the front, and 10" or 12" subwoofers. That has been the key to in my opinion.


----------



## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Correct me if i'm wrong but the bass gets louder when you open the door/window that means you have insufficient airspace for that amount of total cone area, wouldn't it make sense to use less subs or smaller subs until the point where there is no cabin gain ?


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

gstokes said:


> Correct me if i'm wrong but the bass gets louder when you open the door/window that means you have insufficient airspace for that amount of total cone area, wouldn't it make sense to use less subs or smaller subs until the point where there is no cabin gain ?


Cabin gain is the cabin boosting frequencies, not boosting frequencies relative to cone area.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------

