# long shot hat L6 owners



## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

just scored a a pair of hat L6's and will replace the alpine mids, keeping the tweets though, anyone running these 2 way active, in there gasp...yep doors?
any crossover wisdom out there to use as a starting 
point?


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

Why the gasp about mounting in the door location? Depending on the vehicle, the door location can be better than the kicks. Alot of people think that kicks are the end all be all when that really isn't the case.


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## dkh (Apr 2, 2008)

chipss said:


> just scored a a pair of hat L6's and will replace the alpine mids, keeping the tweets though, anyone running these 2 way active, in there gasp...yep doors?
> any crossover wisdom out there to use as a starting
> point?


I'd start at 50hz @ 24dB and 4 - 5khz @ 24dB then, depending on how much vibrations you get on the door / door card - take it up or down @ the 50hz.

PS. If you're running two-way, I'd try and angle the L6's up and in a bit so they clear the centre console / binnacle etc.


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## Installer4life (Jun 26, 2010)

Looks like you have some very good tunning ability with your equipment. I have the HAT L6 and L1 PRO tweeter sitting in the boxes waiting to do what you have done. The L6 will run from probably around 65 to 80hz up to 2000 to 2500Hz. I am running 8" subs tuned to 30hz or so. I usually only run them to about 60hz. Go as low as you can without rattling your doors. The Alpine tweeter has a frequency response from 800hz. That may be a little low for the crossover point but it gives you a lot of room to play with. Let me know how it goes I am looking at probably september before mine will be up and running.


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

yes in an f150 supercab truck the kicks are not an option, the doors do have about 14 hours of work on them, large holes sealed with mdf, vibration dampner ccf and mlv, all the usal stuff, but still its a door not a sealed kick,
I have never seen an off axis plot on these drivers, but its sounding like I may need to do some work on baffles to get them a bit better on axis? I did see the L6se plot...offaxis looks great, and checking out a pair of used L6's to see like there voicing before spending big bucks on the SE,
tweets are at the top of the door card best spot I could find due to refraction areas in the truck, and wanting a higher sound stage, happy with results so far except the midbass at volume, it pops, and has a somthing funny happening around 100-200 cycles, a coloration, I will know if its the door card or the driver after I install these...
start at 50? wow thats pretty darn low dont they fs at 51? was hoping for around 65 most of the kick and bass guitar up front. the alpines can do this at a very low volume and I like it.
I know on the high side the SE was recommended 5-4K not sure about the L6 though, have to play with it...right now tweets are at 3K and seem to be happy there, I do have an issue with the fast attack of a flaminco guitar, and not sure freq wise where these tones reside, but hear stress at volume.
see how it all works out 
thanks for the ideas..


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

Im running the L61Pro SE with the l6 in the doors. I like them at 40hz @24 db/oct to 4000k @ 24db/oct.
The difference between 40 and 50hz is little and there isnt much outout below 50hz but i can still here some info.

I did try 5000hz but the l1pro SE are so detailed i dropped the crossover point and at 5000hz point the L6 started to beam on some male vocals.
I tried the mid to tweet crossover point at 2000hz but the sound stage drops with the tweeters in the pillars and the sound is "more harsh" to speak.

Cannot wait for the L6SE and use the 7000hz crossover point and move into the kicks.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I've never used that speaker, but I would think about 70hz would be limit where I'd run them, and probably closer to 80hz.

There's no way that speaker can very loud at 40-50hz unless it was in a ported enclosure. It won't do it in a door that's for sure.


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

wondering out loud here, looking at t
he L6 plots, there is a smooth Lf rolloff starting around 100 cycles and an impeadance rise as well, couple this with a steep slope on the x over, wondering if this is what has these guys crossing over so low...looks like it will be a fun driver to play with ...


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

It's a fun driver indeed, as long as installation is perfect and powered by good amp, it can cross really low... proper installation will make your L6 easier to "breath" hence sound better. ^^

You can also discuss with scott regarding this, he is very helpful...


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

hope with a qts of 0.526 a perfact install is not needed for great sound, I know doors are less than ideal, but did put some work into them making them as good as possable, 

one thing for sure, all the SQ winners out there with these drivers, tell me if I have issues, they will be install issues not the driver...get off the boat thursday and speakers should arrive then as well....and will start install right away... 
let ya know my thoughts.

scott has impressed me already, my email to him answered right away and some helpful advice, may pick his brain a bit more after install...


zacisme said:


> It's a fun driver indeed, as long as installation is perfect and powered by good amp, it can cross really low... proper installation will make your L6 easier to "breath" hence sound better. ^^
> 
> You can also discuss with scott regarding this, he is very helpful...


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

Believe it or not, but you can run those L6's at 35Hz @24 dB/oct HP up to 5K Hz. And you can throw some power at them too.

Go here if you don't believe me,. I didn't at first. Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • Index page


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## dlechner (Aug 31, 2006)

I will throw you a wrench. I am running a 2-way with the HAT L1v2 and the L6. I have L6s at from 50Hz with no filter on the top end. I am also running the tweets at 8Khz with a 6db slope. This combo sounds really good in my car!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

zacisme said:


> It's a fun driver indeed, as long as installation is perfect and powered by good amp, it can cross really low...


ALL speakers can cross low, hell you can cross a tweeter at 40. it just will have ****ty output and won't take much power


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

smgreen20 said:


> Believe it or not, but you can run those L6's at 35Hz @24 dB/oct HP up to 5K Hz. And you can throw some power at them too.
> 
> Go here if you don't believe me,. I didn't at first. Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • Index page


I don't care what he says (if he actually said that), that's not happening. The speaker is only what a 6.5" with 6mm of excursion. My Tang Band 6.5" sub with twice the xmax can do it, but that's in an enclosure as well, plus they sure as hell won't get anywhere near 5khz.. I absolutely do not believe that the HAT 6 can get down to 35hz and handle a lot of power down there, and do it with authority while being IB in a door or kick panel. If it does, it would be lucky to play up to 95db. Do you realize how low 35hz actually is? Most recordings don't even have any information below that. In fact, why bother crossing it at 35hz, just run it wide open since it pretty much would be anyway.

Someone is going to have to have a video, showing it playing a 35hz test tone with a good 100 or more watts IB and a meter showing how loud it is.

They make subwoofers for a reason, and it's because midbass speakers can't get low enough and loud enough.


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## dlechner (Aug 31, 2006)

89grand said:


> I don't care what he says (if he actually said that), that's not happening. The speaker is only what a 6.5" with 6mm of excursion. My Tang Band 6.5" sub with twice the xmax can do it, but that's in an enclosure as well, plus they sure as hell won't get anywhere near 5khz.. I absolutely do not believe that the HAT 6 can get down to 35hz and handle a lot of power down there, and do it with authority while being IB in a door or kick panel. If it does, it would be lucky to play up to 95db. Do you realize how low 35hz actually is? Most recordings don't even have any information below that. In fact, why bother crossing it at 35hz, just run it wide open since it pretty much would be anyway.
> 
> Someone is going to have to have a video, showing it playing a 35hz test tone with a good 100 or more watts IB and a meter showing how loud it is.
> 
> They make subwoofers for a reason, and it's because midbass speakers can't get low enough and loud enough.


You are correct. The L6 will play that low, just not at a high volume level. I like to play my music loud, so I crossed them over higher.


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

The HAT L6 is actually 7.1".

I agree with 89grand that they cannot play low with authority. I tried a 30hz test tone and it played it but not very loud at all. 40hz was more audible and sounds ok. 50hz is absolutely no problem and sounds nice at loud volume.

When i get a sub installed it try it at 60hz or 50hz and an IB sub from there downwards.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

dlechner said:


> You are correct. The L6 will play that low, just not at a high volume level. I like to play my music loud, so I crossed them over higher.



Yeah, I mean I can grab a $5 4" dual cone and make it play down to 35hz, but you'd barely hear it. Because of that, I don't understand why some are trying to suggest that the HAT 6 is some sort of super speaker, it doesn't do anything any other speaker wouldn't.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

chad said:


> ALL speakers can cross low, hell you can cross a tweeter at 40. it just will have ****ty output and won't take much power


You know i meant L6 not tweets... 
anyway, one of my friend cross his tweeter at 200hz, burned after 3 sec...
and crossing at 40 will have ****ty sound but not spoiled?


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> Yeah, I mean I can grab a $5 4" dual cone and make it play down to 35hz, but you'd barely hear it. Because of that, I don't understand why some are trying to suggest that the HAT 6 is some sort of super speaker, it doesn't do anything any other speaker wouldn't.


You are assuming it can't play well at 40hz or you actually tried it and confirmed it dont play well? 
Anyway i crossed mine at 31.5hz and 40hz before, it does have a difference, Once i strengthen my door i will cross it at 31.5 permanently, helps out sub bass extension, if i cross my sub higher then it will affect staging.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

zacisme said:


> You are assuming it can't play well at 40hz or you actually tried it and confirmed it dont play well?
> Anyway i crossed mine at 31.5hz and 40hz before, it does have a difference, Once i strengthen my door i will cross it at 31.5 permanently, helps out sub bass extension, if i cross my sub higher then it will affect staging.


I really don't need to try it to know that 31.5hz with that speaker is ludicrous.

I can't see any possible reason to want to do that. The speaker would be much louder and much happier crossed over at least twice that high.

If you have a staging problem running your subb higher than 31hz, you have some tuning issues and I'd work on that rather than trying to make a midbass speaker a subwoofer.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

zacisme said:


> You are assuming it can't play well at 40hz or you actually tried it and confirmed it dont play well?
> Anyway i crossed mine at 31.5hz and 40hz before, it does have a difference, Once i strengthen my door i will cross it at 31.5 permanently, helps out sub bass extension, if i cross my sub higher then it will affect staging.


Thanks to science, we don't always have to try dumb **** before figuring out that it's a terrible idea.

Xmax * cone area <--- think about it


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

89grand said:


> If you have a staging problem running your subb higher than 31hz


You have a really band sub install, a really distorting sub, really noisy ports...


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

O hai guyz, can i runz my ribbons down 2 200 hurtz? I thinks there is sum stuff my midrange needs help wit playin lol.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Why do HAT guys keep trying to shatter the laws of physics?


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Do or do not, there is no try.


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## VP Electricity (Apr 11, 2009)

capnxtreme said:


> Do or do not, there is no try.


I used to use that line. Now I just say, "Don't make me go Yoda on your ass".


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Scotty B. totally goes Yoda on Newton's ass.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Perhaps it was ported.


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## yermolovd (Oct 10, 2005)

horn loaded.


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

Why are some of you being racist towards HATs. Not heard them? No opinion.

They are great mids. And I CAN hear a difference when crossed over at 40hz etc rather than 60hz. And it doesnt effect volume anywhere else in the frequecy range that it plays.

Sure 40hz isnt ideal for volume but i prefer as much bass upfront as possible and im happy with a 40hz crossover and only 170w on each mid. More power is needed though.
When crossed at 60hz some of the depth was lost and prefered a 40hz crossover but yes im subless ATM.

It a supremely deadened strong door the L6 really do preform well. 
But yes midbass from an 8" will obviously be better but considering the L6 can play up to 5k it helps with apillar tweeter installs crossing the tweeter over as high as possible.

When a sub comesinto play i will experiment with various crossovers at 30 up to 80hz and see which i prefer.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

RattyMcClelland said:


> Why are some of you being *racist* towards HATs.


Are you ****ing kidding me?

The racist title gets thrown so wildly these days that now it applies to speakers. WTF next.


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## Weightless (May 5, 2005)

Racist towards a speaker? That's a new one.


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## Weightless (May 5, 2005)

89grand said:


> Are you ****ing kidding me?
> 
> The racist title gets thrown so wildly these days that now it applies to speakers. WTF next.


You're a racist for calling him out using racist incorrectly.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> Why the gasp about mounting in the door location? Depending on the vehicle, the door location can be better than the kicks. Alot of people think that kicks are the end all be all when that really isn't the case.


Really??? Who?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Weightless said:


> You're a racist for calling him out using racist incorrectly.


Probably.:laugh:


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

What do you guys think of these?


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

89grand said:


> I've never used that speaker, but I would think about 70hz would be limit where I'd run them, and probably closer to 80hz.
> 
> There's no way that speaker can very loud at 40-50hz unless it was in a ported enclosure. It won't do it in a door that's for sure.


It slams IB at 50hz....


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

The HAT 6 is probably a decent speaker, but it sure as hell doesn't play with any authority from 30hz to 5khz, and suggesting so is insanity.

I wish Scott would pipe in here. I'd love to hear his take on this. Considering the speakers literature states a minimum crossover point of 50hz at 24db, I highly doubt he thinks this driver is suitable for use down to 30hz.


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

Knobby Digital said:


> What do you guys think of these?


Mighty white


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

ill Chime in for the time being.. as a former member of Team Hybrids, I can safely assure you that mine were crossed at 31.5hz for midbass Duty at reference listening levels. 
At Rock concert levels, or rolling down the Highway you'll need to be at 50 Hz or so.
Mine were IB in F150 doors.

Oh yea, the L6 is more than a decent speaker.... Its a very capable speaker.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

mmiller said:


> It slams IB at 50hz....


How loud does it get at 50hz IB and how much power can it take doing it? There is a limit to how loud it could get with 6mm of xmax and it's 6" or so cone area. I don't know how to figure that out, but there is a formula to determine its maximum possible output at 50hz, especially being IB. I also am learly of the claim it goes to 5k before beaming.

Like I said, it's probably a pretty good speaker for its intended purpose and ideal frequency range, but it's not magic. It can't NOT beam beyond where all other speakers beam with the same size cone, and it can't play lower and louder than any other driver of similar cone size and excursion. That's what makes me hate these things, some of the outlandish claims made by their owners.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

rommelrommel said:


> Mighty white


White and MIGHTY!!!

Someone better check this one for papers.


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## coronaoperator (Jun 8, 2009)

might be rude of me to pipe in on this discussion being my first post and all ... but

methinks what your hearing when playing a 30 or 40 hz tone out of a midbasss is the harmonics. All direct radiator speakers give off harmonics. So when your playing a 30 hz tone, you are also hearing a 60hz, and a 120hz tone as well. With a 40hz tone, your also hearing an 80hz and a 160hz tone. 30hz at reasonable levels is very hard to hear, you feel it more than you hear it. Panel and door resonances are also likely what you hear. I would like to see a fft plot of a pure 30hz or 40hz being played to see all the other frequencies being produced from harmonics. The harmonics might be filling in holes in higher frequencies which sound pleasing to your ears, especially in the chest thump frequencies.

just food for thought


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

It's not rude, your post makes some sense, because I maintain that a speaker with a 6" cone and average xmax is not going to play the fundamentals of a 30hz tone very loud at all, especially not in a door of kick panel.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> I really don't need to try it to know that 31.5hz with that speaker is ludicrous.
> 
> I can't see any possible reason to want to do that. The speaker would be much louder and much happier crossed over at least twice that high.
> 
> If you have a staging problem running your subb higher than 31hz, you have some tuning issues and I'd work on that rather than trying to make a midbass speaker a subwoofer.


Ok... so you have never tried it but assuming everything by science... This is music we are talking about and not just SOUND from speaker... If you won't cross it at 31.5kz as you assumed it doesn't make sense,would you low pass your tweets at 16khz since you can't hear it also?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Science trumps voodoo every time.

Crossing a tweeter at 16khz won't hurt it, crossing that HAT 6 at 31.5hz will.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

capnxtreme said:


> Thanks to science, we don't always have to try dumb **** before figuring out that it's a terrible idea.
> 
> Xmax * cone area <--- think about it


So now do you realize why there isn't any revolutionary invention at our times? :laugh: cos everyone only stick to the RULES, and never think out of the box... If Tesla was convinced by Ed that DC is the only way to go, are we gonna have AC?


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

coronaoperator said:


> might be rude of me to pipe in on this discussion being my first post and all ... but
> 
> methinks what your hearing when playing a 30 or 40 hz tone out of a midbasss is the harmonics. All direct radiator speakers give off harmonics. So when your playing a 30 hz tone, you are also hearing a 60hz, and a 120hz tone as well. With a 40hz tone, your also hearing an 80hz and a 160hz tone. 30hz at reasonable levels is very hard to hear, you feel it more than you hear it. Panel and door resonances are also likely what you hear. I would like to see a fft plot of a pure 30hz or 40hz being played to see all the other frequencies being produced from harmonics. The harmonics might be filling in holes in higher frequencies which sound pleasing to your ears, especially in the chest thump frequencies.
> 
> just food for thought


Thats what i wanna say but can't due to my lousy english...


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> Science trumps voodoo every time.
> 
> Crossing a tweeter at 16khz won't hurt it, crossing that HAT 6 at 31.5hz will.


In that case, whats the statistic of L6 being destroyed due to crossing low? scientific fact?


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## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

zacisme said:


> Ok... so you have never tried it but assuming everything by science... *This is music we are talking about and not just SOUND from speaker*... If you won't cross it at 31.5kz as you assumed it doesn't make sense,would you low pass your tweets at 16khz since you can't hear it also?


In terms of reproduction of audio, what else would music be but sound coming from a speaker?




zacisme said:


> So now do you realize why there isn't any revolutionary invention at our times? :laugh: cos everyone only stick to the RULES, and never think out of the box... *If Tesla was convinced by Ed that AC is the only way to go, do we gonna have DC?*


Edison was a major proponent of DC over AC power for homes, etc. Jus' sayin'.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

zacisme said:


> In that case, whats the statistic of L6 being destroyed due to crossing low? scientific fact?


Well, no you won't destroy it, not if you keep the volume really low.

It's a 6" cone with 6mm of xmax playing IB in a door, or kick panel (so no control over cone movement), that's all I need to know, to determine that it is not capable of playing 30hz with an real authority or volume. HAT speakers do not avoid science, I don't care how much they cost.:surprised:

If you think it does, screw getting a subwoofer because you obviously have no need for one.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

sam3535 said:


> In terms of reproduction of audio, what else would music be but sound coming from a speaker?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dunno how to express it, but let just said the harmonic feeling, sound you can't hear but you can feel... Seriously, i was so worried when someone adviced me cross at 31.5~40, cos the paper said 50-5000hz only... so i try out slowly, from low volume to hi, and observe... and so far its working fine.

Sorry bad english, i mistaken AC and DC....  amending it now...


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

If you are hearing harmonics, and you most certainly are, the speaker is still not playing the fundamentals of 30hz just like I said I can't.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

sam3535 said:


> Edison was a major proponent of DC over AC power for homes, etc. Jus' sayin'.


DC needs powerplant for each km its traveled, and Edison earned tons of money from those devices... AC can go much further without powerloss by using transformer... So if Tesla was convinced and never tried out then we will have many power station around us... and electricity bill will be... err... cannot be calculated...


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I heard the L6 sounds more like a midRANGE than a true woofer so maybe its natural rolloff and impedence spike is making the amp put out so little power at 40hz there's no way it could get destroyed? Just talking out of my ass here. I'd love to see a distortion plot with it crossed that low. I bet it ain't pretty.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> If you are hearing harmonics, and you most certainly are, the speaker is still not playing the fundamentals of 30hz just like I said I can't.


If only one speaker in play then what you said is true, when 7 involved then it will be different matter... If you strictly adhere what stated on paper and only play within then it's hard to reproduce good music... Do you like your current set up now?


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

zacisme said:


> So now do you realize why there isn't any revolutionary invention at our times? :laugh: cos everyone only stick to the RULES, and never think out of the box... If Tesla was convinced by Ed that DC is the only way to go, are we gonna have AC?


Science also says that trying to send a man to the sun is a bad idea, I guess we need to try that too?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

zacisme said:


> If only one speaker in play then what you said is true, when 7 involved then it will be different matter... If you strictly adhere what stated on paper and only play within then it's hard to reproduce good music... Do you like your current set up now?



I don't own a HAT driver, nor will I ever I don't think, if that's what you're asking.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

rommelrommel said:


> Science also says that trying to send a man to the sun is a bad idea, I guess we need to try that too?


If you have enough technology to protect yourself against the unknown danger out there, why not?
I can't go but i won't stop people from going... 
Science says its bad idea because at the moment no such tech, and if no one researching on such tech as they were told this is bad idea then it will be remained as a bad idea... its a circle... which is why you couldn't see much improvement in science nowadays...

Science said human can't fly, so wright brother created aeroplane... 
 out of the box...


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

So are you suggesting that HAT speakers defy physics known to exist for all other speakers in existence?

Do you guys get a koolaid packet with your speakers?

BTW, where is Scott, I'd love his input!


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

zacisme said:


> If you have enough technology to protect yourself against the unknown danger out there, why not?
> I can't go but i won't stop people from going...
> Science says its bad idea because at the moment no such tech, and if no one researching on such tech as they were told this is bad idea then it will be remained as a bad idea... its a circle... which is why you couldn't see much improvement in science nowadays...
> 
> ...


Well, it's not an unknown danger, it's a known danger because of the laws of physics. Which admittedly are not perfect, but are more than capable of predicting both what would happen to any matter on the surface of the sun, and the behaviour of a speaker. A 6" speaker playing in IB with 6mm of xmax cannot have significant output at 30 hz, especially relative to the output of said speaker in its designed passband.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> So are you suggesting that HAT speakers defy physics known to exist for all other speakers in existence?
> 
> Do you guys get a koolaid packet with your speakers?
> 
> BTW, where is Scott, I'd love his input!


Not only L6, and please stop doing all these twisting, no one asking you to buy HAT driver.

Midbass that i have experienced crossing at 31.5~40 covered from low to hi end... Why don't you strengthen your door again, make sure all installation is correct then try crossing at 40hz? So when you back here you can speak out loud that: yes, i tried cross it at 40hz and its sxxks... or you might have different point of view by then...


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

zacisme said:


> Not only L6, and please stop doing all these twisting, no one asking you to buy HAT driver.
> 
> Midbass that i have experienced crossing at 31.5~40 covered from low to hi end... Why don't you strengthen your door again, make sure all installation is correct then try crossing at 40hz? So when you back here you can speak out loud that: yes, i tried cross it at 40hz and its sxxks... or you might have different point of view by then...


The door has nothing to do with it. The speaker simply can't do it in any door.

But I give up, you drank the koolaid, and lots of it, and believe it somehow does, and I simply don't care enough to continue to argue about it. Enjoy the magic speakers!:laugh:

I doubt they even need tweeters, just two 7" drivers in a door and that's all you need. Maybe they aren't that expensive after all, since you only need a 2 channel amp, no subs, and surely no tweeters and probably no tuning either. A cheap deck, two HAT 6's and let me guess, a crazy over priced two channel amp?


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

I give up, I admit that a single pair of L6 can play 30hz to 20khz flat with no EQ.


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

my goodness this topic is kinda all over..lol
one thing I do know, hat is out in the lanes winning, and winning a bunch,hat bashing aside,it is indeed a winning driver. the alpine specs on the x pro mid are ******** on my install, the tweeter is sweet though, I belive hats specs to be more inline with whats true,the fs states free air, but anyway the proof for me and my install will be what this driver will do in doors, I ocd,ed over and spent 14 hours nonstop on each door, and a total of 12 days gutting the whole truck to vd,ccf,mlv, all that rot, and I will put a few more hours into a better baffle and have a few ideas, 

think I will start out with 65 cycles/24 on the slope, and bump the high end to 4k to start, 
bet it will sound better than the x pro mids...muhahaha


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

rommelrommel said:


> Well, it's not an unknown danger, it's a known danger because of the laws of physics. Which admittedly are not perfect, but are more than capable of predicting both what would happen to any matter on the surface of the sun, and the behaviour of a speaker. A 6" speaker playing in IB with 6mm of xmax cannot have significant output at 30 hz, especially relative to the output of said speaker in its designed passband.


Ok, lets say its a known danger, but the substance to form protection against this known danger are unknown. If this substance are invented and proven, do you think going to sun still impossible? nothing is impossible, just the matter of time. 

And even though this invention are proven in lab, you will still need to send it there to make sure its really effective. Risky, but never try never know, science theory won't lead you further, research yes.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

chipss said:


> my goodness this topic is kinda all over..lol
> one thing I do know, hat is out in the lanes winning, and winning a bunch,hat bashing aside,it is indeed a winning driver. the alpine specs on the x pro mid are ******** on my install, the tweeter is sweet though, I belive hats specs to be more inline with whats true,the fs states free air, but anyway the proof for me and my install will be what this driver will do in doors, I ocd,ed over and spent 14 hours nonstop on each door, and a total of 12 days gutting the whole truck to vd,ccf,mlv, all that rot, and I will put a few more hours into a better baffle and have a few ideas,
> 
> think I will start out with 65 cycles/24 on the slope, and bump the high end to 4k to start,
> bet it will sound better than the x pro mids...muhahaha


If you feel that honest discussion is HAT bashing, then there is nothing else for anyone to say other than what the koolaid drinkers bring to the table.

So get two drivers, and that's it. You might not even need to install them, just throw them on the floor and you're good to go.:laugh:


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> The door has nothing to do with it. The speaker simply can't do it in any door.
> 
> But I give up, you drank the koolaid, and lots of it, and believe it somehow does, and I simply don't care enough to continue to argue about it. Enjoy the magic speakers!:laugh:
> 
> I doubt they even need tweeters, just two 7" drivers in a door and that's all you need. Maybe they aren't that expensive after all, since you only need a 2 channel amp, no subs, and surely no tweeters and probably no tuning either. A cheap deck, two HAT 6's and let me guess, a crazy over priced two channel amp?


The door has nothing to do with it? Sorry pal, if all along you never pay attention to your installation then i can understand why you will have same lousy result from low end till expensive speaker... To me, installation means almost everything, and the door certainly has a lot to do with it.

Btw, you can save those non-constructive post, this is a forum to share, not to discriminate or flamming.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

zacisme said:


> The door has nothing to do with it? Sorry pal, if all along you never pay attention to your installation then i can understand why you will have same lousy result from low end till expensive speaker... To me, installation means almost everything, and the door certainly has a lot to do with it.
> 
> Btw, you can save those non-constructive post, this is a forum to share, not to discriminate or flamming.


Tell me more about the forum, I'm new here, I don't really know.

I thought we debunked myths, but how would I know, you've been here a month.

OK, so a door makes the driver defy the laws of physics, and not the driver? So you could use a cheap coaxial and get hard hitting 30hz from it? OK, I get it now I think.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> If you feel that honest discussion is HAT bashing, then there is nothing else for anyone to say other than what the koolaid drinkers bring to the table.
> 
> So get two drivers, and that's it. You might not even need to install them, just throw them on the floor and you're good to go.:laugh:


To be honest, your first few post are very helpful, but the last few is just... erm...


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

Here it is, read for yourself.

Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • View topic - Midbass Visceral Impact


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

coolaid? this driver is out there winning comps all over? that is silly hat bashing,coolaid,race comments,all way off topic, 

my x over setting include tweets and woofers , what I as the OP thought were good starting points, 
trying to bring things back on track, yes this post is full of hat bashing by folk that dont own the driver, I find that funny, no coolaid needed buddy, would be very cool to talk about this driver, its specs, there is a freq/aplitude plot, and specs on the driver, and door installs by folks running this driver...
like I asked from the start...but I knew it would come to this....
thus the long shot....


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

smgreen20 said:


> Here it is, read for yourself.
> 
> Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • View topic - Midbass Visceral Impact



Well, I thought he might just sit back and let the koolaid drinkers sell his product for him (which is still wrong), but perhaps he's peddling the koolaid too. No biggie, I'll never run his voodoo.

He says it can play at 90db, and he claims the speaker is what 89db, then you factor in cabin gain, the speaker can tolerate .5w at 30hz? Impressive.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> Tell me more about the forum, I'm new here, I don't really know.
> 
> I thought we debunked myths, but how would I know, you've been here a month.
> 
> OK, so a door makes the driver defy the laws of physics, and not the driver? So you could use a cheap coaxial and get hard hitting 30hz from it? OK, I get it now I think.


80-yr-old not really know more than 18-yr-old in certain field...
You joined here earlier doesn't means you always right...
I never said a cheap coaxial get hard hitting 30hz, and you won't really get it until you try it.
And yes, i do believe a well established door and correct installation does make a difference... You can keep using the laws of physics, but whats the point? we are here because we want good music right? just give it a try before denying everything...


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

zacisme said:


> 80-yr-old not really know more than 18-yr-old in certain field...
> You joined here earlier doesn't means you always right...
> I never said a cheap coaxial get hard hitting 30hz, and you won't really get it until you try it.
> And yes, i do believe a well established door and correct installation does make a difference... You can keep using the laws of physics, but whats the point? we are here because we want good music right? just give it a try before denying everything...


Yeah, you're right, I might be able to lift 10,000 pounds, I just haven't tried it yet because I was sure I couldn't, but I bet I can now that I think about it. Maybe even 20,000 pounds.

I'm sold. HAT...here I come!


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> Yeah, you're right, I might be able to lift 10,000 pounds, I just haven't tried it yet because I was sure I couldn't, but I bet I can now that I think about it. Maybe even 20,000 pounds.
> 
> I'm sold. HAT...here I come!


Use forklift, it's invented for a reason... 
it's even comes in different size for you lift different thing...


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

HAT FTW!!!!!!

I'm done, I'm completely sold. I can't wait to to run a system that consists of 2 speakers, and having no want for anything more.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> Well, I thought he might just sit back and let the koolaid drinkers sell his product for him (which is still wrong), but perhaps he's peddling the koolaid too. No biggie, I'll never run his voodoo.
> 
> He says it can play at 90db, and he claims the speaker is what 89db, then you factor in cabin gain, the speaker can tolerate .5w at 30hz? Impressive.


Y don't set up your own following laws of physics and beat them in competition? i guess it has more effect then yelling over here 

Fyi, HAT is not really a premium brand with its price tag, consumer aint stupid, and judges aint first time listen to music too.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Competition has nothing to do with good speakers...err wait, yes it does..HAT FTW!

I'm now a HAT zombie, I don't think, I just do....uhhh, I mean I just buy HAT!


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> Competition has nothing to do with good speakers...err wait, yes it does..HAT FTW!
> 
> I'm now a HAT zombie, I don't think, I just do....uhhh, I mean I just buy HAT!


So tell me what has got to do for competition?
Everything is related, even a door...

Enjoy yourself keyboard warrior... but try not to waste the bandwidth.


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## coronaoperator (Jun 8, 2009)

Out of curiousity I modeled the hat l6 driver using hornresp. This program can model any loudspeaker in any enclosure including hornloaded designs. Here are the results.

In 1/2 space (speaker in infinite baffle on the ground) it peaks out at 110db around 115 Hz. (121db in 1/8th space or what a typical car could be modeled in, probably a bit higher with cabin gain and reflections)

Anything below 115hz, xmax is the limiting factor, not power handling, the speaker just runs out of travel. The output decreases linearly with decreasing frequency.

at 30hz it peaks out at 85 db in 1/2 space (or 97 in 1/8th space)
It does this at 4 watts! Thats it, 4 watts at 30 hz and you are popping your cone! 

It also has an inpedance peak of 22 ohms centered at 51.5hz, which explains the crossover recommendation.

fwiw


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

zacisme said:


> So tell me what has got to do for competition?
> Everything is related, even a door...
> 
> Enjoy yourself keyboard warrior... but try not to waste the bandwidth.



(In robotic voice) I have no thoughts of my own, sound competitions mean everything, HAT 6's are the only speaker on earth that resist beaming, xmax and cone size mean nothing, I will spend my next pay check buying what the koolaid drinkers say, there is none better, **** all other speakers, I wish HAT made amps, and subs...oh wait, subs are unnecessary, I must spend hundreds and hundreds on sound deadening from SS, I must eat food...(end robotic voice).:laugh:


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

coronaoperator said:


> Out of curiousity I modeled the hat l6 driver using hornresp. This program can model any loudspeaker in any enclosure including hornloaded designs. Here are the results.
> 
> In 1/2 space (speaker in infinite baffle on the ground) it peaks out at 110db around 115 Hz. (121db in 1/8th space or what a typical car could be modeled in, probably a bit higher with cabin gain and reflections)
> 
> ...


Oh no, please do not brings facts into the discussion, they are unwelcome. I tried that approach before I just accepted the "truth".

Actually welcome aboard, nice to have someone that thinks as a new member.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

89grand said:


> How loud does it get at 50hz IB and how much power can it take doing it? There is a limit to how loud it could get with 6mm of xmax and it's 6" or so cone area. I don't know how to figure that out, but there is a formula to determine its maximum possible output at 50hz, especially being IB. I also am learly of the claim it goes to 5k before beaming.
> 
> Like I said, it's probably a pretty good speaker for its intended purpose and ideal frequency range, but it's not magic. It can't NOT beam beyond where all other speakers beam with the same size cone, and it can't play lower and louder than any other driver of similar cone size and excursion. That's what makes me hate these things, some of the outlandish claims made by their owners.


The L6 is actually 7.1 inchs....


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

So it beams even more than we thought?


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

89grand said:


> Yeah, you're right, I might be able to lift 10,000 pounds, I just haven't tried it yet because I was sure I couldn't, but I bet I can now that I think about it. Maybe even 20,000 pounds.
> 
> I'm sold. HAT...here I come!


HAT Does not need you using there Speakers anyways....... You wouldn't know what to do with them.:laugh:

They will Continue to be used to win Championships without your Help.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

mmiller said:


> The L6 is actually 7.1 inchs....


You know it has a frame right? The cone is roughly 6" like I said.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

mmiller said:


> HAT Does not need you using there Speakers anyways....... You wouldn't know what to do with them.:laugh:
> 
> They will Continue to be used to win Championships without your Help.


I view winning idiotic sound offs, that put more stock in how pretty your wiring is than the the actual sound, as worth while as posts of voodoo over science.:laugh:


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

thank you for a post that is on topic, 

FYI my hat Lf set are used, and were much less than what the scan speak revs would have cost, what had me wanting to check these drivers out were a plot on the L6se and there off axis perfomance, the L6 has Good QTS, its wideband plot seems like a good driver for a 2 way system,ect...and a good price used..









coronaoperator said:


> Out of curiousity I modeled the hat l6 driver using hornresp. This program can model any loudspeaker in any enclosure including hornloaded designs. Here are the results.
> 
> In 1/2 space (speaker in infinite baffle on the ground) it peaks out at 110db around 115 Hz. (121db in 1/8th space or what a typical car could be modeled in, probably a bit higher with cabin gain and reflections)
> 
> ...


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

89grand said:


> How loud does it get at 50hz IB and how much power can it take doing it? There is a limit to how loud it could get with 6mm of xmax and it's 6" or so cone area. I don't know how to figure that out, but there is a formula to determine its maximum possible output at 50hz, especially being IB. I also am learly of the claim it goes to 5k before beaming.
> 
> Like I said, it's probably a pretty good speaker for its intended purpose and ideal frequency range, but it's not magic. It can't NOT beam beyond where all other speakers beam with the same size cone, and it can't play lower and louder than any other driver of similar cone size and excursion. That's what makes me hate these things, some of the outlandish claims made by their owners.


Are you retarted???????

I dont even OWN L6's anymore.. and I am a member of Team H Audio. I have no reason to Toot Scotts Horn, I am just speaking frm experience, and from listening to multiple world championship vehicles.... Oh Wait thats right Championship cars Sound like **** right?? You don't need a Good sounding Car to win anything...

I'd love to hear what your Car sounds like.... I am sure its Mind Blowing.

Scott not gonna involve Himself in this thread, why would he argue with an ignorant idiot??

Badmouthing product you have never heard, let alone owned.

People like YOU are the reason why 2/3rds of the people that know anything dont come around anymore.

I am out...Peace!


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

How is not believing that a 6" driver can play 30Hz IB with any sort of authority badmouthing? Would I be badmouthing Mazda if I said that a Miata is not all that good at hauling bricks?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

rommelrommel said:


> How is not believing that a 6" driver can play 30Hz IB with any sort of authority badmouthing? Would I be badmouthing Mazda if I said that a Miata is not all that good at hauling bricks?


It's alright. He got mad I guess because I correctly said the speaker has a 6" *cone* and he didn't read my post well enough, and kept telling me it was a 7.1", because he couldn't grasp the idea of subtracting the good 1" total frame area, then decided to call me retarded after he realized he was the one incorrect. I find it humorous actually.:laugh:


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

its the coolaid comments,and the like thats IMO the bashing part, it is silly to say SQ champs, dont know SQ, or to bash scott who has the highest SQ score EVER, I would say he has proven himself to many in this area, some soundoffs as you say judge only SQ, not install, just dont think your being resonable here, and pretty much trashing this thread ..


I for one just want to learn a few things here to improve my sound, not talk like a robot about coolaid, or other off topic stuff..

mabey a great idea would be to start your own thread on what you dont like about hat?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

The thing is, it's not really his speakers much, it's the install and tuning that makes a car sound great. I could sell any half decent speaker, get a bunch of people on board, then supply them with great tuning and install expertise and then claim it's all in the speaker.

I can wrap up what I don't like about HAT in one sentence, no need to start a whole thread. *It's the out right lies and exaggerations about the speakers abilities, and the high price I don't like.*


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## fit_tuner (Aug 14, 2006)

i just had to say something... i kinda find the debate funny. here's my take on the debate

89grand never said HAT drivers were terrible. he just states that it cant play 30hz in a door IB with authority. it's physically impossible. 

while zacisme states that it can, because it can defy the laws of physics, because everything in science can be broken... (thats what i got out of it)

Now back on topic. 

as for the OP, just go with something safe, and go from there. 
just read an article on here that will help you set up your crossover settings and mess with polarity.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-tutorials/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html

edit: HAT vehicles are award winning because of the time and effort that are put into them, have you seen jorge or bigred's cars? yes, i will say HAT drivers are well built and are quality, but you have to also compare the amount of work put into those cars as well.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> The thing is, it's not really his speakers much, it's the install and tuning that makes a car sound great. I could sell any half decent speaker, get a bunch of people on board, then supply them with great tuning and install expertise and then claim it's all in the speaker.
> 
> I can wrap up what I don't like about HAT in one sentence, no need to start a whole thread. *It's the out right lies and exaggerations about the speakers abilities, and the high price I don't like.*


Ohh... now you do admit the importance of proper installation and tuning.
half decent speaker will sound great with good installation and tuning yet good speaker will sound slightly better.


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

yes I have those tuning notes printed out in the glove box and have found them very useful, working on a rta set up and mic next, and have some good ideas where to start with this driver in doors..lol it wont be 30 cycles lol and see both side of this, but back on track is good, 

I know most of these cars are stunning, but like I said some comps judge only SQ, and learning a few tricks from the team hat guys I would think a wise investment of my time.
all internet chat taken with a grain of salt.

belive me I intend over time to try many mid drivers out, and am no zombie, I build amps, play guitar bass and drums, have a pro tools studio and just want things to sound good rolling down the road could care less what the brand is.
and thats the curse, I know when the bass is going to reach for the low notes and key in on it, its a curse...thus looking into wideband mids, 

but where does one start? a proven SQ winner makes sence to me..






fit_tuner said:


> i just had to say something... i kinda find the debate funny. here's my take on the debate
> 
> 89grand never said HAT drivers were terrible. he just states that it cant play 30hz in a door IB with authority. it's physically impossible.
> 
> ...


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

fit_tuner said:


> i just had to say something... i kinda find the debate funny. here's my take on the debate
> 
> 89grand never said HAT drivers were terrible. he just states that it cant play 30hz in a door IB with authority. it's physically impossible.
> 
> ...


It won't sound good in a just a plain door, ofcourse you gotta spend some effort to make it sound good...
Yup, you got that right, i do believe everything in current science might be broken one day, isn't it happened all the times? go google some study materials if exaples listed in earlier pages are not enough to convince you...
Last but not least, 89grand defy everthing against laws of physcs without trying it, and i defy using my own experience... 

Thread stater, sorry for the mess...


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## fit_tuner (Aug 14, 2006)

zacisme said:


> It won't sound good in a just a plain door, ofcourse you gotta spend some effort to make it sound good...
> Yup, you got that right, i do believe everything in current science might be broken one day, isn't it happened all the times? go google some study materials if exaples listed in earlier pages are not enough to convince you...
> Last but not least, 89grand defy everthing against laws of physcs without trying it, and i defy using my own experience...
> 
> Thread stater, sorry for the mess...


yes, science can be disproven, but you cant control physics... if you can then you can fly without use of a plane, the wright brothers did not defy the laws of physics by building a plane, they worked around it. they still did not break the laws of physics.

i still dont think that an L6 can play 31.5 hz with authority, but i dont mind if im proven wrong

easiest way is to get an spl meter and play a 31.5hz tone to prove that what you say is true, and record it. like someone said before, it might be the harmonics you're hearing, not the actual tone you set your crossover to.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

fit_tuner said:


> yes, science can be disproven, but you cant control physics... if you can then you can fly without use of a plane, the wright brothers did not defy the laws of physics by building a plane, they worked around it. they still did not break the laws of physics.
> 
> i still dont think that an L6 can play 31.5 hz with authority, but i dont mind if im proven wrong
> 
> easiest way is to get an spl meter and play a 31.5hz tone to prove that what you say is true, and record it. like someone said before, it might be the harmonics you're hearing, not the actual tone you set your crossover to.


Point noted... your posting is much better...
As for crossing part, maybe its harmonic, but it does enhance the music,
cross in between 31.5/40/50 can feel the differences.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Just for the record, anyone that knows me here knows damn well I've stated many times that tuning and install are the key to good sound.

I said I didn't care what you did to the door, because it can't make a speaker with a 6" cone and 6mm of xmax produce high levels of a 30hz signal. I never suggested that the install doesn't make any difference in the overall sound quality. You're purposely twisting my words to try and make it appear as though I don't have the slightest idea what I'm talking about, but it's not working obviously.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I'll bet dollars to donuts that "difference" is distortion. I HATE distortion. However I don't like a sub that's too low distortion since that's what lower bass is...at least it has to be for you to be able to hear it. Speaking of which, if you can't get up front bass with midbass crossed at 80 or above and sub blending from there you obviously did something wrong with your substage. Higher distortion subs seem to have this issue in my experience AND I HAVE USED QUITE A FEW SUBS IN MY DAY.

Chipss, sorry for trashing your thread. I as well as 89 have a BIG problem with people who can't catch a hint on what a speaker at any given size can and can't do no matter how solid the install. As long as the image doesn't pull to the doors that's all that matters. I'm pretty picky and happen to have rock solid imaging with stock locations in a Ram. Hope you can make it out to the Lousiana g2g to check it along with several other great sounding cars


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

hahahahaha... damn funny^_^... ok ok... dun cross your midbass below 40hz, just cross it high as you wish... so no more argument...

So when you gonna apply your theory in your set up and join a competition? I bet not only me, more people will start learning your way of tuning... if you walk the talk... ^^


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

zacisme said:


> hahahahaha... damn funny^_^... ok ok... dun cross your midbass below 40hz, just cross it high as you wish... so no more argument...
> 
> So when you gonna apply your theory in your set up and join a competition? I bet not only me, more people will start learning your way of tuning... if you walk the talk... ^^


I don't make a claim unless I'm confident of what I'm saying. Too bad my erratic schedule and working nights keeps me from cleaning up in the stock class


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I don't make a claim unless I'm confident of what I'm saying. Too bad my erratic schedule and working nights keeps me from cleaning up in the stock class


Owh... Sigh... How i wish can see you guys stunning performance knock out those iasca/emma lame champion car that don't even know they have made the biggest mistake for not following spec sheet. Please... let me know when you about to participate one... 
just asking, where you got your confidence from to make this claim?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

zacisme said:


> Owh... Sigh... How i wish can see you guys stunning performance knock out those iasca/emma lame champion car that don't even know they have made the biggest mistake for not following spec sheet. Please... let me know when you about to participate one...
> just asking, where you got your confidence from to make this claim?


Competition tunes are usually barely loud enough to be audible with the car sitting still and volume pegged. Most competitors have a competition tune and a tune for daily jamming. If I crossed ANY 6.5-7" driver at 31.5hz I'd fry it with some of the music I listen to at 80mph in a truck sitting on noisy stock tires.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

89grand said:


> Just for the record, anyone that knows me here knows damn well I've stated many times that tuning and install are the key to good sound.
> 
> I said I didn't care what you did to the door, because it can't make a speaker with a 6" cone and 6mm of xmax produce *high levels of a 30hz signal*. I never suggested that the install doesn't make any difference in the overall sound quality. You're purposely twisting my words to try and make it appear as though I don't have the slightest idea what I'm talking about, but it's not working obviously.


I completely agree with your argument and do not discount that producing _significant _output levels at 30Hz from a 6/7" midbass is not going to happen. I do, however, cross my L6s low >>for my competition tune<<. In competition, specifically in MECA, there is very little in the low registers on the Chesky UDD. Additionally, system volume should not reach above 110dB, and then only for the linearity test. Getting an L6 to play into the low 40's with listening peaks in the 9xdB range is not impossible under those circumstances, and to do respectably in competition you HAVE to optimize your tune for the material. For my daily tune that I listen to tooling around in the car and on the highway, I cross quite a bit higher and bump up the levels on the midbass because I like plenty of authority when it's called for. That's what I started the thread on the HAT forum about in the first place.

I think the primary disconnect in this thread revolves around the term 'significant output'. At listening levels involved in competition, equivalent to a loud talking voice, I think the L6 does a respectable job into the 40's and crossed in the high 30s rolls off cleanly enough to add a little bit of authority up front in the cellos and bass guitar. Turn it up on the Bass Resonance test and you may very well bottom those bad boys right out, just as you (and our friend Physics) predict. There is no magic here, but I do think the levels referred to in the HAT thread may have been a little...generously overstated. 

I'm not a HAT team member, I don't have firsthand experience with a ton of the excellent drivers that are often the subject of discussion here, but I rather like the way the Hybrids sound in MY car, and think I'll be happy running these for awhile yet. 

-Todd


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

^^^See, I can very much believe and accept that. I have no idea what the competition levels or music are, so it's possible under some certain circumstances. Most of us here listen to music much louder than the reference level of a particular competition probably is. I've maintained the whole time that any speaker can play 30-40hz, but if it's fairly small and has limited xmax, it won't be very loud.

For a daily driver system where levels reach much higher, it seems to be a horrible idea to run that driver below probably 50hz, if not a little higher than that.

This is the first post that has really shed some light on just exactly what was being done when those ultra low crossover points were being used.


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

89grand said:


> Are you ****ing kidding me?
> 
> The racist title gets thrown so wildly these days that now it applies to speakers. WTF next.


It was a joke..you yanks simple dont get sarcastic british humour....:laugh:


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

I'm just trying to be honest and tell it like I hear it. Anything else just sets others up for unrealistic expectations. 

Along those lines I had a fellow competitor at a recent competition get into my car, put his material in, and crank it the F4 up. The L6's bottomed with that tune and choice of material at those volumes, and the listener later complained that the car "lacked midbass, and had an odd noise coming from the passenger door". 
No s4, Sherlock! 
I expected him to listen at the volumes to which the tune was intended, and he had no such expectation. It was my fault. Not the fault of the L6 OR the listener; they both did what they expected and neither were prepared for the tune-imposed limitations. Had I known his intent I would have switched to my street tune and let him knock himself out!

Point of all of that is this: Understand what your expectations for the driver are and also understand what allows a driver to actually MEET those expectations. As stated many times here, physics won't get out of the way for a brand name or power rating. Will the L6 PLAY 30Hz? Sure! Will it do it on the highway with the windows down over the din of a Magnaflowed 454 pushing twice the national speed limit at 3AM? ...No. Not in your lifetime.

-Todd


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Now we're getting somewhere. Coming from someone who has been in several competition cars (several HAT) I know for a fact they don't use that tune for daily listening...at least I hope not.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

highly said:


> I'm just trying to be honest and tell it like I hear it. Anything else just sets others up for unrealistic expectations.
> 
> Along those lines I had a fellow competitor at a recent competition get into my car, put his material in, and crank it the F4 up. The L6's bottomed with that tune and choice of material at those volumes, and the listener later complained that the car "lacked midbass, and had an odd noise coming from the passenger door".
> No s4, Sherlock!
> ...


If it's someone you know, tell them to use common sense and back off if they hear distortion or mechanical noise. If you don't trust them, automatically switch to your street tune...or just keep it on street tune until the judges show up. You learned your lessonI use a really REALLY strong amp on my frontstage and my mids are at 100hz 24db. The 2" wideband tweets are at 1600hz 24db. No mechanical limitations with my tune


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> If it's someone you know, tell them to use common sense and back off if they hear distortion or mechanical noise. If you don't trust them, automatically switch to your street tune...or just keep it on street tune until the judges show up. You learned your lessonI use a really REALLY strong amp on my frontstage and my mids are at 100hz 24db. The 2" wideband tweets are at 1600hz 24db. No mechanical limitations with my tune


I chocked it up to being a newby in the competition scene. It's my first year competing, and the first show I went to where I didn't know everyone there. I thought I was being reasonable when I told him to help himself as I expected him to act like I do when listening to a new car. That was clearly an unreasonable expectation on my part, and it won't happen again! 
No harm, no foul and lesson learned!

-Todd


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Hey guys, sorry I'm late. I have a day job. LOL Seriously, I am not here a dozen times a day to check threads. I come here about twice a week, and its usually to surf the for sale forum for oldie by goodie stuff like PPI art series or old ODR. So please don't throw me on the cross, or implicate that I am letting other people "sell" or "defend" my product.

I regularly cross the L6 over at 40 Hz at 24 dB/octave *in competition cars set-up to play a maximum of 108-109 dB at reference level.* I also advise this setting to customer's with "refined" windows-up listening habits. Would I advise the L6 be placed in the door of a car, crossed at 40 Hz, owned by a 19 year old, with Fitty-Cent, Jay-Z, and Ludakris CD's in the center console? HELL NO. I'll advise the installer to cross at 100 Hz or 125 Hz, and preferably at 24 dB/octave. You cross this dude's midbass at 40 Hz, and there'll be the smell of voice coils. 

You guys realize you just wasted thirty six hours of your life arguing semantics and nomenclature?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

highly said:


> I completely agree with your argument and do not discount that producing _significant _output levels at 30Hz from a 6/7" midbass is not going to happen. I do, however, cross my L6s low >>for my competition tune<<. In competition, specifically in MECA, there is very little in the low registers on the Chesky UDD. Additionally, system volume should not reach above 110dB, and then only for the linearity test. Getting an L6 to play into the low 40's with listening peaks in the 9xdB range is not impossible under those circumstances, and to do respectably in competition you HAVE to optimize your tune for the material. For my daily tune that I listen to tooling around in the car and on the highway, I cross quite a bit higher and bump up the levels on the midbass because I like plenty of authority when it's called for. That's what I started the thread on the HAT forum about in the first place.
> 
> At listening levels involved in competition, equivalent to a loud talking voice, I think the L6 does a respectable job into the 40's and crossed in the high 30s rolls off cleanly enough to add a little bit of authority up front in the cellos and bass guitar. Turn it up on the Bass Resonance test and you may very well bottom those bad boys right out, just as you (and our friend Physics) predict. There is no magic here, but I do think the levels referred to in the HAT thread may have been a little...generously overstated.
> 
> ...


Thank goodness for this reply.
Someone here with enough humility and experience to speak without falling over their ego or hatred for a specific brand.





highly said:


> I think the primary disconnect in this thread revolves around the term 'significant output'.


Bingo. 

Until we can all define the output levels we're talking about, we're just talking out of our asses. 


As far as competition cars sounding like ****, you guys must've heard the rare group of cars that don't get loud. I know plenty cars that compete and sound wonderful at even high volume levels.


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

Scott, sorry if I "miss lead" people in here by the posts I made to your site and the conversation you were having w/others there.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

No worries. Highly solved the problem with this thread long before I got here (thanks man). There's no 6" cone in the world that can produce significant output at 30 Hz. Well, maybe an enclosed 6" subwoofer with cabin gain included, but its a stretch even still. 

Now, crossing a midbass low, such as 40 Hz or even 31 Hz, with a steep slope, _and_ for guys with the listening habits that align with crossing midbass low, it's a great way to merge the midbass to subbass transition, and help solidify an up-front bass illusion when subs are in the rear.


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

I think the primary disconnect in this thread revolves around ....
what I asked in the first place, but....it was great fun, I did learn a few things, and it made my last night out at sea go by rather fast...so thanks yall....lol


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## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

89grand said:


> It's not rude, your post makes some sense, because I maintain that a speaker with a 6" cone and average xmax is not going to play the fundamentals of a 30hz tone very loud at all, especially not in a door of kick panel.


Right but they are HAT L6's have you forgotten this??
Apparently they make great spouses as well and can also make you breakfast lunch and dinner according to these guys...Not to mention the laws of physics DO NOT apply to HAT speakers dont you know that??


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Scott Buwalda said:


> No worries. Highly solved the problem with this thread long before I got here (thanks man). There's no 6" cone in the world that can produce significant output at 30 Hz. Well, maybe an enclosed 6" subwoofer with cabin gain included, but its a stretch even still.
> 
> Now, crossing a midbass low, such as 40 Hz or even 31 Hz, with a steep slope, _and_ for guys with the listening habits that align with crossing midbass low, it's a great way to merge the midbass to subbass transition, and help solidify an up-front bass illusion when subs are in the rear.


Well, I figured you'd have a different take on it then some of the people in this thread. All I've maintained the whole time is that no speaker with a 6" cone and 6mm of xmax can produce even remotely high levels of 30-40hz bass. I also stated that all speakers can produce some degree of bass that low, they just simply can't get very loud doing it. 

Considering that you are even agreeing with that, I can't figure out why a few people that run that speaker refused to accept what I was saying. It took 3 pages before someone finally explained under what particular circumstances the driver was used with that low of a crossover point. Instead I was getting things like "you haven't tried it", "They aren't ordinary speakers" and other such non-sense. It's the rabid fans that really make me dislike the HAT brand more than anything else. You can't even have an honest discussion with many of them. I'm sure you appreciate their enthusiasm, but it must be mildly embarrassing at times too when they imply HAT speakers can ignore physics.

I've had upfront bass, and nice blending with the sub with crossover points around 80hz. I just don't think it requires such an ultra low crossover point to achieve it. A system with that low of a crossover point on that driver, mounted IB in a door or kick panel, cannot possible have much in the way of dynamics. Again though, I can see it being possible at low levels with certain music.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

^precisely. 

Up to "reference level", which many say is 105 - 108 dB (which is LOUD), playing real music, the L6 can play satisfactorily down that low. I have done it in more than a dozen MECA, IASCA, and USACi champion cars over the past four years (sorry for the comp. car analogy, I know how this forum hates car audio competitors). Not to push my luck with a car audio competitor analogy, but David Edwards' Camry has had the L6's at 31 Hz and 24 dB/octave for two full years now and has won MECA's highest class, Master, two years running. He's undefeated in competition for 28 months now. 

Let's put it this way, sitting in a quiet driveway playing real music, 40 Hz at 24 dB all day every day. Windows open playing Black Eyed Peas at 80 MPH with the volume rocked over to about 7/8, cross at 60-80 Hz for the win.


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

thank you scott.







Scott Buwalda said:


> ^precisely.
> 
> Up to "reference level", which many say is 105 - 108 dB (which is LOUD), playing real music, the L6 can play satisfactorily down that low. I have done it in more than a dozen MECA, IASCA, and USACi champion cars over the past four years (sorry for the comp. car analogy, I know how this forum hates car audio competitors). Not to push my luck with a car audio competitor analogy, but David Edwards' Camry has had the L6's at 31 Hz and 24 dB/octave for two full years now and has won MECA's highest class, Master, two years running. He's undefeated in competition for 28 months now.
> 
> Let's put it this way, sitting in a quiet driveway playing real music, 40 Hz at 24 dB all day every day. Windows open playing Black Eyed Peas at 80 MPH with the volume rocked over to about 7/8, cross at 60-80 Hz for the win.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Can you clarify if the 105-108db is from the HAT 6 alone and is that between 30-40hz? I just don't see that driver having the displacement to get that loud that low without completely running out of excursion quite a bit before that high of a level especially with no enclosure to control the cone.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

NO, good Lord no. 108 dB full-range all system speakers playing without over-exagerated subbass output, and no notable clipping. Basically, audiophile tune at 108 dB. High-volume sound linearity is done at 105 dB fullrange from the driver's seat during judging, for example... (driver's seat being an important consideration, not on windshield, and not with ridiculous subbass boost).


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Scott Buwalda said:


> NO, good Lord no. 108 dB full-range all system speakers playing without over-exagerated subbass output, and no notable clipping. Basically, audiophile tune at 108 dB. High-volume sound linearity is done at 105 dB fullrange from the driver's seat during judging, for example... (driver's seat being an important consideration, not on windshield, and not with ridiculous subbass boost).



Ok, got it. I knew if you showed up you could clear the mud that was going on before.

What crossover point is typically used for the subwoofer with systems setup with 31.5hz on the HAT 6, or even say at 40hz, is it the same on the sub?

I really don't want to have a bone to pick with HAT, but before you cleared things up, some people that run them never mentioned the sub playing, they made it seem as though the HAT 6 could play 31.5hz all day long, and at those reference levels. That's what started my insistence that it could not possibly be true. It's making a lot more sense to know what was actually happening. I'm sure it's a great speaker, and now that you've described what you guys are doing, I can believe what YOU are saying about it.


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

One of the guys I know that run the L6/L3/L1 set up had two 10" subs in a box that was ~.75 cf. Crazy small box for two 10's.


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

89grand said:


> Ok, got it. I knew if you showed up you could clear the mud that was going on before.
> 
> What crossover point is typically used for the subwoofer with systems setup with 31.5hz on the HAT 6, or even say at 40hz, is it the same on the sub?
> 
> I really don't want to have a bone to pick with HAT, but before you cleared things up, some people that run them never mentioned the sub playing, they made it seem as though the HAT 6 could play 31.5hz all day long, and at those reference levels. That's what started my insistence that it could not possibly be true. It's making a lot more sense to know what was actually happening. I'm sure it's a great speaker, and now that you've described what you guys are doing, I can believe what YOU are saying about it.


I'll LP the sub at the L6's HP frequency for the comp tune at half the rate. With the L6 at 24dB I'll put the sub at 12dB but EQ the sub and midbass through the crossover range for ~two octaves. At 40Hz and 24dB there's still a LOT of cone movement down into 30Hz. My car, like many with the midbass in the door, blooms at 63Hz. The (for lack of a better term) texture of the sub differs from the L6 (the sub is an aluminum cone Dayton 12" HO) and this allows some of the sub's texture to blend more smoothly up into the midbass without a harsh cutoff but keeps the delicate balance that I have to maintain nearing 63Hz. Track 3 on the MECA disk is Spanish Harlem, and the third note of the bassline is right at 63 and will stick out like a sore thumb if not massaged well. If I were to turn the sub off in this tune there are only 2 or three tracks that you'd even notice the sub wasn't there (the toe tap on Track 9, Grandma's Hands being most prominent).

As a rough idea of the low end rolloff of the L6, for an RTA at 100dB reference level I do *not* run a sub *at all* (completely shut down through the H701) and run the L6 open on the bottom lowpassed near 100Hz. This scored a 34 of 40 in RTA with one major and one minor. The major (+6dB) was a peak at 30hz caused by a rumble in the cabin from semis on a nearby highway. 

On my daily-driver tune I run the sub up to ~80 at 24dB and cut the L6 at ~100, 12dB. The L6 and sub get +2dB gain over the comp tune, and I pull 1dB from the tweeter and EQ out a little from the top of the L4. This serves to rotate the curve around the midrange for more midbass kick and a nice fat low end that tries to flay the flesh from your body when you decide to crank Linkin Park on the highway. With this tune the system does 128dB clean as a whistle. My max listening level very rarely exceeds 120dB as I am trying to prevent any additional hearing loss (I am basically deaf above 14k and have significant tinnitus that I prefer not to exacerbate).

My point in all of this is to try to give some realistic indication of the L6's capabilities. I am very impressed by the 'speed' of the driver under these conditions. It has an immediacy to it that I really like, and I must admit that it took some time to warm up to its lack of distortion. This is my first real high-end system install, and I am used to the midbass distortion coloring the sound of a crunchy Metallica guitar riff making it, for lack of a better term, crunchier. Lower-end midbasses in a 2-way setup tend to break up and ring a bit when a distorted guitar is palm-muted and I had grown accustomed to the sound. It's what I'd call 'pleasing distortion' in a speaker and it's the kind of thing you'll hear in person in a good Marshall amp running 12's. I didn't realize that my previous systems were adding as much as they were until I fired up the HATs and it tends to leave me feeling the car sounds a little sterile when I put something like that in the deck. Not everyone likes that in a car, and I definitely understand! I suspect that is also influenced to some degree by pairing the HATs with Genesis amps that tend to be a little less warm. 

Sorry that post went as long as it did. I am not trying to sell you on Hybrid or the L6, but I am trying to provide you with enough words to describe *MY* experience with them so that you can understand their strengths and weaknesses _without actually listening to them_. I find that to be rather difficult personally, but as this is a public forum and not a face-to-face get together words are all I've got to work with!

Hope that helped.
-Todd


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

chipss said:


> just scored a a pair of hat L6's and will replace the alpine mids, keeping the tweets though, anyone running these 2 way active, in there gasp...yep doors?
> any crossover wisdom out there to use as a starting
> point?


To answer the original question, I would agree with DKH on Page1. 4K is a good cutoff point assuming your mids are in the doors and the tweets are more than 9-12" away (like up in the sail-pillar area). Play with aiming on the L6 to get the most from them first, then try to fill with the tweet where it sounds best. Some cars have wicked window reflections that like to drag the image around based on the aiming of the passenger mid/midbass, so I'd aim first and crossover second. Run only the L6 with just a highpass, get your image stable with aiming, then add the tweet in and sort out the crossover point. The aiming of your L6, being the critical midrange driver in a 2-way, will dictate the resulting stability of the image. You may be giving up a lot just sticking them in the door and trying to fix an install (aiming) shortcoming with T/A and EQ. You probably already know that so ignore that info if it doesn't apply, but it may help someone who reads this in the future.

There's been ample discussion on the low-register capabilities of the L6 , so use your own best judgment based on your listening style. I DO recommend playing around with the HP on the L6 to see how it reacts, though. Clearly, results vary depending on your listening style!

And sorry this thread has gone to hell and back. Hopefully we've made it to "back" and will stay there!

-Todd


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> Ok, got it. I knew if you showed up you could clear the mud that was going on before.
> 
> What crossover point is typically used for the subwoofer with systems setup with 31.5hz on the HAT 6, or even say at 40hz, is it the same on the sub?
> 
> I really don't want to have a bone to pick with HAT, but before you cleared things up, some people that run them never mentioned the sub playing, they made it seem as though the HAT 6 could play 31.5hz all day long, and at those reference levels. That's what started my insistence that it could not possibly be true. It's making a lot more sense to know what was actually happening. I'm sure it's a great speaker, and now that you've described what you guys are doing, I can believe what YOU are saying about it.


Oh... so now you do realize its possible... 
I dunno how loud you listen to your song but hey, this is diyma sq forum which stands for quality, if you wanna talk about typical loudness then go spl forum.
If your midbass sound terrible even at 40hz then there could only be two reasons, your amp not good or your installation not good.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

zacisme said:


> Oh... so now you do realize its possible...
> I dunno how loud you listen to your song but hey, this is diyma sq forum which stands for quality, if you wanna talk about typical loudness then go spl forum.
> If your midbass sound terrible even at 40hz then there could only be two reasons, your amp not good or your installation not good.


No, he as well as myself were saying that the whole time but it took *the owner of the company and a competitor chiming in*before you would listen. I know you're foreign but that's no excuse for being unwilling to listen to someone who has been around the block a few times when it comes to car audio.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> No, he as well as myself were saying that the whole time but it took *the owner of the company and a competitor chiming in*before you would listen. I know you're foreign but that's no excuse for being unwilling to listen to someone who has been around the block a few times when it comes to car audio.


Are you kidding me?

both of you said it cannot cross that low cos will cause distortion and cannot reach 105db and definitely won't sound good and only idiot who loves distortion will cross that low... pull out xmas and cone size and assuming people crossing that low are ice retarded, without looking at the fact that does it helps or not.

I dunno it can reach 105db or not but i mentioned it sounds good from the very first post from my own experience if all the basic were done perfectly. I was just suggesting chipss that it's no harm trying since my midbass didn't burn. 

This the worst twist and turn thingy that i ever experienced...


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## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

RattyMcClelland said:


> Why are some of you being racist towards HATs. Not heard them? No opinion.
> 
> They are great mids. And I CAN hear a difference when crossed over at 40hz etc rather than 60hz. And it doesnt effect volume anywhere else in the frequecy range that it plays.
> 
> ...


I hope you get an infraction for calling people racists...Apparently this board it is PERFECTLY acceptable to call someone a racist yet when they defend themselves they get an infraction...THIS IS BS


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## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

I think it's time this thread was locked as nothing productive is happening here. 
Unsubscribed. 

Have fun!
-Todd


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

tinctorus said:


> I hope you get an infraction for calling people racists...Apparently this board it is PERFECTLY acceptable to call someone a racist yet when they defend themselves they get an infraction...THIS IS BS



Seriously WTF.......
I never called someone a racist directly did i. How am i calling someone if i said it against a speaker.

In the UK its common humour to say its racist against rivals such as cars etc. Like the Impreza vs evo rival. One party is racist to the other not in different culture and background way like black and white but in different cars terms as a joke. Political correctness gone wrong if the problem nowadays especially in britain so as a joke we say thing like this.

As said americas dont get british humour and vice versa. Thats always joked upon on british comedy shows and the british version of whos line is it anyway and mock the week.




So no direct racist terms were used by myself, it was used in a joke context towards a metal frame with rubber/paper and a magnet..


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

thanks so much guys for posting a bunch of way off topic garbage, 

we are talking about a speaker here and crossover points, anything else should go in another thread of your own, or pm'ed.

a very simple idea, yet like a two year old child ..I am sure some of you will continue on, with more off topic comments untill I delete the whole thread becuse its so off topic....and of little use to anyone.


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## David_Edwards (Nov 12, 2008)

I do run my L6s at 31.5Hz in my Camry's doors...i do it all day every day(they will play 95dB referance level at 31.5Hz as well...we saw it on the RTA at ESN last year....but I am also not a volume junkie....100dB-110dB....I also have my subwoofers(2 IB 12's in the rear deck) crossed at 40Hz as well....


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

zacisme said:


> Are you kidding me?
> 
> both of you said it cannot cross that low cos will cause distortion and cannot reach 105db and definitely won't sound good and only idiot who loves distortion will cross that low... pull out xmas and cone size and assuming people crossing that low are ice retarded, without looking at the fact that does it helps or not.
> 
> ...


I never said what you are claiming I said, I never even mentioned distortion. As a matter of fact, I clearly stated any speaker could play down to 31.5hz, but not very loud at all. Unfortunately your input is not valid. I've already received the facts from people that actually know what they're talking about. Everything I said about the HAT 6's ability to play 30hz at higher levels is true.

Anyway, I understand how some people are using it that low, and they're doing it under very controlled circumstances, nothing like you had claimed. 

Feel free to respond if you must, but I'm not listening to or responding to you any further on this subject.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

David_Edwards said:


> I do run my L6s at 31.5Hz in my Camry's doors...i do it all day every day(they will play 95dB referance level at 31.5Hz as well...we saw it on the RTA at ESN last year....but I am also not a volume junkie....100dB-110dB....I also have my subwoofers(2 IB 12's in the rear deck) crossed at 40Hz as well....


Yeah, I think I even threw out that number of 95db being possible several pages back.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

89grand said:


> Yeah, I think I even threw out that number of 95db being possible several pages back.


I said reference levels... did I not???? I used the product for 4 years, i am pretty sure I have a good idea of what it can do.... but you obviously know more without ever hearing.

You even made reference as to hating the product because People like me raving about it. I was stating what my experience was with the product, Dave and Scott said almost exactly what I was saying.. But now everything all cool.. Whatever.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

89grand said:


> I view winning idiotic sound offs, that put more stock in how pretty your wiring is than the the actual sound, as worth while as posts of voodoo over science.:laugh:


There is sound only Judging in Competitions.... Maybe you can come along and show everyone how its done.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

mmiller said:


> I said reference levels... did I not???? I used the product for 4 years, i am pretty sure I have a good idea of what it can do.... but you obviously know more without ever hearing.
> 
> You even made reference as to hating the product because People like me raving about it. I was stating what my experience was with the product, Dave and Scott said almost exactly what I was saying.. But now everything all cool.. Whatever.



I made reference to disliking HAT because of outright lies and false claims made by some of the users.

Only Scott and a few others actually explained how they're using the drivers that low. Others tried to make me believe the speaker could do things other 6" coned drivers with 6mm of xmax can't which is what I has refused to believe and still do. The way they are tuning them, and the level at which they are being played could be done be any other speaker of similar displacement.

I've seen some of your other posts before outside this topic, I'm not wasting time with you or that other guy from Malaysia or where ever he's from any more on this topic.

So you guys can continue cluttering up the thread with BS. I'll stick to discussing this with people that know what they are talking about if I decided to ask any more questions about these drivers and the tuning.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

89grand said:


> I made reference to disliking HAT because of outright lies and false claims made by some of the users.
> 
> Only Scott and a few others actually explained how they're using the drivers that low. Others tried to make me believe the speaker could do things other 6" coned drivers with 6mm of xmax can't which is what I has refused to believe and still do. The way they are tuning them, and the level at which they are being played could be done be any other speaker of similar displacement.
> 
> ...


The same reason why its crossed that low had already been brought out by me... Then you started bashing my tuning got problem, my sub box got problem and blar blar... I also told you i have tried from low end to hi end midbass all have no issue crossing that low so i clearly stated i didn't worship HAT at all... then you said those who crossed L6 that low must have drank coolaid from scott, and many many sarcastic posts...

Until scott and some others came in, then you are showing your innocent face like: hey, i bash them because they didn't explain why they cross so low, i do understand it can cross that low.......... when you only care about bashing and dun bother to ask, you got no rights to bash, let alone flamming against HAT...

Whether i came from malaysia or not, does not change the fact that you are just a stubborn head who know tons of theory but know **** about music. Althouth you said you will not reply further, but i believe you will...


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

mabey we could change gears here and talk about where we cross on the high end of this driver? 

I had read some of scotts ideas on another forum and changed my 3k point to 
4k. on my current x pro mids,
and went back and forth on a long drive home, this simple change did exactly what scott said it would do, it thighned up the sound stage.

having high tweets and low mids, this was done without any eq or ta ajustments, just switching the x over point. 

I found this interesting..


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

ahhhh, more drivel about car audio competitions that are totally false.

MECA does not judge install. Unless you actually _compete_ in that class.


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## nirschl (Apr 30, 2009)

chipss said:


> mabey we could change gears here and talk about where we cross on the high end of this driver?
> 
> I had read some of scotts ideas on another forum and changed my 3k point to
> 4k. on my current x pro mids,
> ...


As of most recent, my L6's and SE tweeters are crossed at 4k/24dB up top and L6's at 50hz/24dB on the low end. 
IMHO, I've got a great blend between the L6 and subs, with nice up front bass, so there is no _real_ need for me to cross down further. However, I have done it and it works, right around the reference levels Dave speaks of. 

I'm quite pumped for the upcoming release of the L6SE as it's only going to get better on both ends of the curve. 

Cheers

Pete


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

89grand said:


> I made reference to disliking HAT because of outright lies and false claims made by some of the users.
> 
> Only Scott and a few others actually explained how they're using the drivers that low. Others tried to make me believe the speaker could do things other 6" coned drivers with 6mm of xmax can't which is what I has refused to believe and still do. The way they are tuning them, and the level at which they are being played could be done be any other speaker of similar displacement.
> 
> ...


Did I, or did I not say playing that low was for reference Levels????

and now your backing down on Competing, how its does not take a Good sounding car to Win, well Prove it!


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

chipss said:


> mabey we could change gears here and talk about where we cross on the high end of this driver?
> 
> I had read some of scotts ideas on another forum and changed my 3k point to
> 4k. on my current x pro mids,
> ...



Sorry for messing with your Thread, i was initially Trying to help, because i have a fair amount of experience with the Gear.


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## zacisme (Jun 25, 2010)

chipss said:


> mabey we could change gears here and talk about where we cross on the high end of this driver?
> 
> I had read some of scotts ideas on another forum and changed my 3k point to
> 4k. on my current x pro mids,
> ...


I am doing 3ways front so my input for midbass low pass is useless for you... 
My friend cars using focal k2puv midbass only paired up with dyn md100 using h701, i tried to cross it higher at 4k but it doesn't blend well, so i tried on 2k to 4khz range with different slope... Guess different driver on same car will have totally response... i am still not satisfy with the result, will try again to day after my ear had enough rest...


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

the L6se is what got me looking at HAT, the offaxis responce on this chart,
even at 4k it looks real good, compared to everthing else I looked at..the scan speak revs are a mess at 4k offaxis.


















nirschl said:


> As of most recent, my L6's and SE tweeters are crossed at 4k/24dB up top and L6's at 50hz/24dB on the low end.
> IMHO, I've got a great blend between the L6 and subs, with nice up front bass, so there is no _real_ need for me to cross down further. However, I have done it and it works, right around the reference levels Dave speaks of.
> 
> I'm quite pumped for the upcoming release of the L6SE as it's only going to get better on both ends of the curve.
> ...


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

the driver itself is pretty cool looking, but that off axis stuff is what got me
saving my pennys.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

chipss said:


> the L6se is what got me looking at HAT, the offaxis responce on this chart,
> even at 4k it looks real good, compared to everthing else I looked at..the scan speak revs are a mess at 4k offaxis.


Have a look at the Scan speak illuminators.... I believe the response is far flatter than the revs.


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

indeed it is, but Qts 0.29  not the best in a door.


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

Very excited about the L6SEs. Cant wait.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

chipss said:


> indeed it is, but Qts 0.29  not the best in a door.


thats true, even the revs are not the greatest in doors....


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

chipss said:


> the L6se is what got me looking at HAT, the offaxis responce on this chart,
> even at 4k it looks real good, compared to everthing else I looked at..the scan speak revs are a mess at 4k offaxis.


They're both ~ 20db down at 5k. That HAT graph just covers more than 2x the range. If anything, the Scan's off-axis response more closely follows the on-axis.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

The Legatia L6SE is about ten (10) dB down at 5,000 Hz, when looking at reference of 85 dB flat (from reference 300 Hz to 3,000 Hz). What's inspiring about the 60-degree off-axis graph is there is still usable information to 9,200 Hz at -15 dB. Note also the similar inductance character, but the L6SE doesn't exhibit a termination or spider resonance such as is shown at 800-900 Hz on the lower graph (the Illuminator model). 

Add the above to that the fact that the L6SE has lower voice coil inductance, a more amenable resonant frequency for its intended application (30 Hz verses 51 Hz), significantly lower moving mass, higher suspension compliance, significantly higher sensitivity, higher thermal power handling, and significantly higher mechanical Xmax/displacement. All this for _about_ the same price, and you get pre- and post-purchase support, a warranty, and lifetime guaranteed value.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Scott Buwalda said:


> the L6SE doesn't exhibit a termination or spider resonance such as is shown at 800-900 Hz on the lower graph (the Illuminator model). .


For my own knowledge, can you elaborate on how that is derived from the graph.

Also not to nitpick, but according to the L6SE graph, it appears to be at least 15db down @ 5kHz. And what exactly is _mechanical xmax_?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

look at the scan graph posted above. notice the bump in impedance at around 900hz. this is likely due to spider resonance, as Scott mentioned. That resonance could very well relate into what you hear.

However, I don't really put much weight on sweeps by different mfgs. Who knows the parameters used during testing. No way to know just how accurate a comparison would be.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

One thing too, the resolution on the Scanspeak graph is much higher than the L6, so while it may look worse at first glance, looking at the db chart to the left, it shows the Scan graph is simply revealing more info.

I'd say other than that little spike right at 5k, the L6 is easily down 15db from near 5k from say 150hz or so. Now if you take certain frequencies and compare it may be down 10db.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

where is the 18w ss Illumintor Graph?? I only see the 18w Revalator graph.

This is the illuminator graph. https://www.madisound.com/store/manuals/18WU_4741T00.pdf?osCsid=bc3115e10fe29c5cbab5aeae77d663c1


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

I hope that someone in my area orders the L6se, it looks like its going to be an awesome driver!


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

Wow.Impressed with the frequency response of the SEs.
Should suit my 2 way wellup to 7k crossover.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

RattyMcClelland said:


> Wow.Impressed with the frequency response of the SEs.
> Should suit my 2 way wellup to 7k crossover.


yea for sure.... I can't even imagine what the L6 pro's will be like..


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

RattyMcClelland said:


> Wow.Impressed with the frequency response of the SEs.
> Should suit my 2 way wellup to 7k crossover.


I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from. 7khz?


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

Because thats where i want the crossover and these L6SE willplay up to that just off axis.

Not a fan of low tweeter crossover points in a 2way setup with pillar tweeters. The sound is more harsh and soundstage drops.
I like the crossover as high a possible especially since the mibass are in the kicks are far away as possible. The tweeters will add height and sparkle.

This works for me. Each to their own though.


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

I would think 7k would have some major beaming issues.

even if the driver pulled this off in fine form, they would have to be dead on axis...or am I missing somthing?

4k seems to be a sweet spot for the l6 in a two way.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Those speakers will not play up to 7khz off axis without some serious beaming way before 7khz.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

RattyMcClelland said:


> Because thats where i want the crossover and these L6SE willplay up to that just off axis.
> 
> Not a fan of low tweeter crossover points in a 2way setup with pillar tweeters. The sound is more harsh and soundstage drops.
> I like the crossover as high a possible especially since the mibass are in the kicks are far away as possible. The tweeters will add height and sparkle.
> ...


Hmmm...

why 7khz? Seems like an arbitrary point. Height localization is predominantly around 2khz.
For vocals, it's best to cover as much as you can in one driver, but 4khz is often the max needed (where ~2khz is the first harmonic of male/female). 

Between 2khz and 7khz on the most off-axis chart given (BTW, is that supposed to be 60* or 90*, Scott?) you have a 15dB drop. With the amount of EQ needed to fix the problems all related to an off axis driver and beaming of it I can't find a reason why you would want to cross a driver that high.


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

Hummm forgot about beaming. Goot point guys.

I did get beaming at 5k on my L6 and lowing the crossover to 4k made the sweet spot. The L1Pro SE play nicely at 4k too....

i guess i need the drivers in my car to experiment.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

not all beaming is bad. Some here are propnents of using it to their advantage. Personally, I've tuned a few cars and haven't been able to let beaming do anything positive for me. Most 6.5-7" drivers beam right around the range that my ear (and probably most everyone else's) are most sensitive, so in a 2-way system, I often cross the mid below 3khz and the tweeter higher than 4khz. It varies, but that's kind of where I settle on things at.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Sure. The reality is that yes, speaker directivity begins to narrow at the wavelength that equals the diameter of the radiating surface of the driver. For a 7.1-inch midrange, the radiating surface is about 4.625 inches (this is the part of the speaker that makes the tone, and does not include the surround nor the frame of the speaker). The wavelength of 4.625 inches is 2,900 Hz. That means the 7.1” midbass does not begin to “beam” until about 2,900 Hz. Even at 4,000 Hz, the speaker’s beaming/directivity is relatively minor. 

One important thing to note, in car audio, we actually like a certain degree of beaming, because with beaming occurs an attenuation of upper frequency information the more off-axis you go. So if you are 60 degrees off axis on the left side of the car, to the left speaker, the right seated passenger is likely only 30 degrees off axis. That means a defined improvement in bandwidth and amplitude for the opposite-seated passenger. This is a good thing if done correctly. I like to call it "poor man's intensity alignment."

As for the discussion about tweeters and crossovers, that's a whole 'nother story. I propose going as high with the tweeter crossover as possible, while still maintaining the desired frequency response, spectral balance, and sound linearity at the listener.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Ooops, I see bikinpunk was responding similarly while I was yapping on the telephone.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Scott, can we get a clarification on the term "mechanical Xmax"?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Typically, mechanical xmax, (xmech) is how far the suspension will allow the speaker to move physically, and is usually much higher than linear xmax, the figure that really matters.

But we'll see what Scott says about it.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Yeah, I'm familiar with xmax and xmech. I'm not sure what mechanical xmax is.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Knobby Digital said:


> Yeah, I'm familiar with xmax and xmech. I'm not sure what mechanical xmax is.


Well, mechanical xmax, is xmech. I can't say if Scott meant something else, but I doubt it.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

The Scan shows 6.5/11mm linear/mechanical, the HAT 8.5mm "mechanical Xmax". According to his post above the L6se has a higher "mechanical xmax" than the Scan rev. So I'd assume he means linear excursion, but why would you call that anything other than xmax?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Knobby Digital said:


> The Scan shows 6.5/11mm linear/mechanical, the HAT 8.5mm "mechanical Xmax". According to his post above the L6se has a higher "mechanical xmax" than the Scan rev. So I'd assume he means linear excursion, but why would you call that anything other than xmax?


Hmmm, I don't know. I do know xmech is pretty much a useless spec for the most part anyway, and I don't know how he determined it was higher than the Scan driver.


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## Knobby Digital (Aug 17, 2008)

Personally, I think xmech can be pretty important for midbass drivers because a kick drum transient can drive a woofer pretty far and it'd be nice if it didn't bottom out.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Scott,

What would you think about a system using a Class A amp, driving 2 L6 Pro's full range, from 20Hz-20Khz? I'm hoping that the warmth of the amp will complement the transparency of the L6 Pro Pro's, and since they can play up high off-axis, avoid crossover issues by running full range.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Knobby Digital said:


> Personally, I think xmech can be pretty important for midbass drivers because a kick drum transient can drive a woofer pretty far and it'd be nice if it didn't bottom out.


Well, I don't think the xmech spec alone will tell you whether the voice coil can slam into the back plate or not, but honestly, it's not a great idea to drive a speaker past it's xmax. I'm sure though that people do it with subwoofers all the time.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

capnxtreme said:


> Scott,
> 
> What would you think about a system using a Class A amp, driving 2 L6 Pro's full range, from 20Hz-20Khz? I'm hoping that the warmth of the amp will complement the transparency of the L6 Pro Pro's, and since they can play up high off-axis, avoid crossover issues by running full range.


Interesting idea. I like this, class A, no crossover, full bandwidth from a single driver.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

capnxtreme said:


> Scott,
> 
> What would you think about a system using a Class A amp, driving 2 L6 Pro's full range, from 20Hz-20Khz? I'm hoping that the warmth of the amp will complement the transparency of the L6 Pro Pro's, and since they can play up high off-axis, avoid crossover issues by running full range.


That's crazy talk. Anybody with any experience with the L6 Pro knows, which evidently you don't because you're retarded and ride the short bus, with all the other non-HAT owners, that the L6 is not effective at 29 hz. 30 hz is fine, but 29 hz is just a tad bit low. 

Please be realistic in your expectations.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Well, I already have 5 layers of Damplifier (the black foil kind) in my doors, so I'm hoping that 29Hz will be ok. If I need to add a few more layers of deadener to get down there, I am ok w/ that.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

capnxtreme said:


> Well, I already have 5 layers of Damplifier (the black foil kind) in my doors, so I'm hoping that 29Hz will be ok. If I need to add a few more layers of deadener to get down there, I am ok w/ that.


The beauty of running a Class A amp (besides the obvious sonic benefits) is that while they have ridiculously high idle current (equal to the current draw running balls out), you'll only be running one 2 channel amp, so you shouldn't have much of an issue.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

That's exactly what I was thinking. Spend my money on some nice old school quality, instead of quantity. I'm after SQ anyways.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

capnxtreme said:


> L6 Pro's





MiniVanMan said:


> L6 Pro's


You geniuses realize that the L6 Pro doesn't exist, and for eight pages now there's been no mention of an L6 Pro? 

I got carried away on my specifications nomenclature earlier. Thanks for the proof-reading. The L6SE linear Xmax (not mechanically limited) is 8.5mm one-way.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Scott Buwalda said:


> You geniuses realize that the L6 Pro doesn't exist,


Come on, next you're going to tell me that my Dodge Grand Caravan is NOT a Type R model.


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## Scott Buwalda (Apr 7, 2006)

Do you mean Dodge R/T, or Honda Type R? My head is spinning here man, work with me.  If you have done a motor swap in your baby hauler, to include an R/T designated motor, then sure, if you can find an R/T logo on sale at Pep Boys, be my guest and slap it on. But I doubt that you have put a lowly Honda Type R motor into your kid hauler. Not a good weight to power ratio.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

When will the L6 Pros be available?


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## nirschl (Apr 30, 2009)

capnxtreme said:


> When will the L6 Pros be available?


The L6*SE* will be coming out pretty soon. Here is a thread to read up on it:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-vendors/80062-hybrid-audio-technologies-l6-se.html

The L6*Pros* are further down the road I believe. I am sure Scott will chime in.


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## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

RattyMcClelland said:


> Seriously WTF.......
> I never called someone a racist directly did i. How am i calling someone if i said it against a speaker.
> 
> In the UK its common humour to say its racist against rivals such as cars etc. Like the Impreza vs evo rival. One party is racist to the other not in different culture and background way like black and white but in different cars terms as a joke. Political correctness gone wrong if the problem nowadays especially in britain so as a joke we say thing like this.
> ...


Regardless of whether you were DIRECTLY calling the poster a racist it is VERY FROWNED upon in AMERICA and seems to stem from people we call "race baiters" Now I will admit I DO NOT know british humor as I only know ONE person from england and have never been there "although NOT for lack or trying, thats FOR SURE"

Here in America the term racist is to openly and freely "thrown around" and it is almost ALWAYS directed at white people for stupid **** "for instance if you dont like the president you are a racist and you dont like him because he is "black" when in reality it is HIM and his VIEWS we dont like, Or if you dont like a particular person and they happen to not be white it CANT POSSIBLY be that you dont like said person because you just dont like them and they are worthless it is automatically assumed you dont like them based on the color of there skin"

So I ask you PLEASE DO NOT use the term racist around here unless it is actually warranted by someone calling another member a N!##r or a SP!( or any of the NUMEROUS racial terms that can be used


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

well said, thats the way it is in the south....just not somthing I want to talk about, on my time off.....I get plenty at work .....


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)




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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

tinctorus said:


> Regardless of whether you were DIRECTLY calling the poster a racist it is VERY FROWNED upon in AMERICA and seems to stem from people we call "race baiters" Now I will admit I DO NOT know british humor as I only know ONE person from england and have never been there "although NOT for lack or trying, thats FOR SURE"
> 
> Here in America the term racist is to openly and freely "thrown around" and it is almost ALWAYS directed at white people for stupid **** "for instance if you dont like the president you are a racist and you dont like him because he is "black" when in reality it is HIM and his VIEWS we dont like, Or if you dont like a particular person and they happen to not be white it CANT POSSIBLY be that you dont like said person because you just dont like them and they are worthless it is automatically assumed you dont like them based on the color of there skin"
> 
> So I ask you PLEASE DO NOT use the term racist around here unless it is actually warranted by someone calling another member a N!##r or a SP!( or any of the NUMEROUS racial terms that can be used


NvM!


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

Well thanks for blowing this epically out of proportion. Seems if i visted America and opened my mouth with some humour and i say one word wrong id be shot.
But i apologise for a/ somehow getting this thread derailed and b/ saying the word racist.  though im the complete opposite.
Leicester where i live in the UK is one of the most multi cultured cities in the UK and you lot are the 1st to say anything.
Even my girlfriend says the same jokes and shes indian. 

But enough. Back on topic please.


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