# 100,000 watts of bass



## Patrick Bateman

If anyone is in SoCal, there's supposed to be a hundred thousand watts on tap at this Saturday's Excision show.

I'm not even a huge fan, but I'm going because I <3 bass and this type of setup is the kind of bass you can only hear in a few places. Last time I saw Excision the bass was so loud and deep it was hard to breathe 

I've been to a few SPL contests, but this type of bass is on a whole 'nother level.

http://goldenvoice.com/shows/details/?id=246457


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## diy.phil

oh man U <3 pain!! j/k
Have fun there!!


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## BlkRamRt

HHHMMMM 25 MINUTE DRIVE FROM MY HOUSE...INTERESTING....MORE LIKE 150,000 WATTS


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## thehatedguy

Excuse my ignorance as I am not into this kind of music in any way, but what exactly do you do at these kinds of concerts? Seems like MDMA, LSD, or something else would make the experience more fun.


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## mikey7182

thehatedguy said:


> Excuse my ignorance as I am not into this kind of music in any way, but what exactly do you do at these kinds of concerts? Seems like MDMA, LSD, or something else would make the experience more fun.


Lots and lots of drugs. And apparently endure epileptic seizures:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFd7MHcYW1o

[email protected] comment "You know a vid is gonna be awesome when it has an epilepsy warning on it"


The bass at the Korn concert I went to about a month ago was pretty intense. They've gotten dubstep-y the past few years. Not sure what kind of power or cone area they're running. I don't particularly understand the draw to "bands" like Excision, nor am I sure I could tolerate 90 minutes of the live version of that link I just posted, surrounded by a bunch of people who "get it"... but the bass thing is cool.


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## Patrick Bateman

thehatedguy said:


> Excuse my ignorance as I am not into this kind of music in any way, but what exactly do you do at these kinds of concerts? Seems like MDMA, LSD, or something else would make the experience more fun.


The thing I like about a lot of these events is that they're taking the sound and the video and the music to a level where you can get an experience that's damn near hallucinogenic while stone cold sober.










My favorite example of this is Bassnectar. When you go to one of his shows, you're looking at this video screen that's the size of an IMAX theatre, with a wall of subwoofers that's the size of the stage. And the great thing about bass is that you can play it really really really ****ing loud without hearing loss. So when the bass drops, it literally sucks the air out of your lungs. It's similar to the effect that you get when you're in an SPL car, where the bass hits and you feel it in your chest. *But this is way way different, because you're in an audience with ten thousand other people that are just losing their ****.*

I don't know if LSD would be a really hot idea, because the shows are already so intense, you might just get overstimulated. Basically LSD and MDMA can make some really boring **** interesting. But Bassnectar is anything but boring, it's a basic full tilt assault on your eyes and your ears.

(Full disclosure : I don't do drugs, and can't do drugs due to my job. I might have a couple beers at Excision, but that's the extent of it. Not that I have anything against it, I just can't do it personally.)

Things were definitely different twenty years ago; when I was in college the raves were WAY druggier than they are nowadays. But they're a lot more mainstream now, and that means that drug abuse isn't even close to what it was in 1994.

Over twenty four years I've been to about two hundred concerts, and I've only seen and heard a system this size three times:

1) Skrillex Mothership tour, PK Sound, 2011
2) Excision, PK Sound, 2012
3) Bassnectar, Rat Sound(?), 2012

I'm crossing my fingers that they bring the big guns to the show. It's advertised on the flyer. Then again, the Mad Decent Block Party and the Datsik tour in 2013 advertised it also, and they lied.

But I feel confident that Excision will bring all 100,000 watts (or is it 150,000 watts?) As I understand it, you can only set up a system this size in certain venues. For instance, when I saw Datsik I saw him at a nightclub, and a 150,000 watt system in a nightclub will probably have the cops close you down. The Mad Decent Block Party was held outside downtown, and a 150,000 watt system would probably wreak havoc on every business in a two mile radius.

That's the reason I'm driving up to Los Angeles to see Excision, instead of seeing him here in San Diego. (In Los Angeles he's playing at a Venue that's four times the size of the one in SD.)


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## SkizeR

thehatedguy said:


> Excuse my ignorance as I am not into this kind of music in any way, but what exactly do you do at these kinds of concerts? *Seems like MDMA*, LSD, or something else *would make the experience more fun.*


"more fun" doesnt even scratch the surface lol


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## Patrick Bateman

mikey7182 said:


> Lots and lots of drugs. And apparently endure epileptic seizures:
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFd7MHcYW1o
> 
> [email protected] comment "You know a vid is gonna be awesome when it has an epilepsy warning on it"
> 
> 
> The bass at the Korn concert I went to about a month ago was pretty intense. They've gotten dubstep-y the past few years. Not sure what kind of power or cone area they're running. I don't particularly understand the draw to "bands" like Excision, nor am I sure I could tolerate 90 minutes of the live version of that link I just posted, surrounded by a bunch of people who "get it"... but the bass thing is cool.


The sound quality on this video is crap, but the reaction of the crowd when the beat drops gives you a general idea of how nutty it gets:

Bassnectar @ Bass Center VII - Intro "Here We Go" - YouTube

You can see the camera pan the crowd, and there seriously isn't a single person that isn't losing their marbles. I've been to football games, baseball games, trance shows, rock shows, you name it. Nothing comes close to how berzerk people get at a good dubstep show. It reminds me a little bit of the mid 90s when grunge was huge and when Rage Against the Machine or Ministry played the entire crowd would be moshing. Dubstep is basically this generation's heavy metal.


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## mikey7182

Well I love a good show and attend as many concerts as I possibly can. Always open to trying new things. Guess I will have to check one of these out.

I've noticed something interesting as well- There is something about the live experience that makes you see a group or a type of music in a new light. I have several bands who I never really got into, then saw them live for the first time and stopped by a record store on the way home and bought multiple albums of theirs.


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## Patrick Bateman

SkizeR said:


> "more fun" doesnt even scratch the surface lol


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## rmoltis

I do have a few excision albums. 
And they re quite good.

Also have all of the bassnectar albums
As well as Datsik.
If I could make it I would.
This would be an awesome show to attend.

I have been to quite a few electronic shows that were just awesome.
Even a few where the speakers caught on fire from being pushed so hard.
But this looks to be a good show.
Wish I could make it.

Have fun everyone.


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## Patrick Bateman

rmoltis said:


> I do have a few excision albums.
> And they re quite good.
> 
> Also have all of the bassnectar albums
> As well as Datsik.
> If I could make it I would.
> This would be an awesome show to attend.
> 
> I have been to quite a few electronic shows that were just awesome.
> Even a few where the speakers caught on fire from being pushed so hard.
> But this looks to be a good show.
> Wish I could make it.
> 
> Have fun everyone.


Actually, the SPL folks will get a kick out of this, because PK Sound is getting these huge decibel levels through modern amplifier design.










They use these insanely efficient (and insanely expensive) amplifiers. These aren't the exact same model. But the ones in the rack above are rated for NINE THOUSAND WATTS EACH.

So a huge part of the reason that they're able to achieve these absurd SPL levels is through the same class D technology that's been revolutionizing the SPL contests for a couple decades now.


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## thehatedguy

I've stood next to the door of Tommy McKinnie's Ho Problems truck with it running full tilt demo...that was pretty fun. About 30k watts from what I remember.


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## ATOMICTECH62

I wonder if the neighbors complain much.


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## Patrick Bateman

mikey7182 said:


> I don't particularly understand the draw to "bands" like Excision, nor am I sure I could tolerate 90 minutes of the live version of that link I just posted, surrounded by a bunch of people who "get it"... but the bass thing is cool.


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## onebadmonte

Looks like they have a concert coming up in San Marcos Tx. I think I'll check it out and see what the big deal is. If it sux you owe me a refund Bateman.


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## Notloudenuf

They are coming to Lincoln Theatre in Raleigh. LT is tiny. The main room dimensions are 38' wide X 100' deep and 25' high clear span ceilings. There is no way 150K watts of bass would ever make it into that building. They even have an asterisk next to the date saying * DENOTES EXECUTIONER PRODUCTION CANNOT BE USED DUE TO VENUE CONSTRAINTS
So IDK what to do. It seems insane but if I can't get the whole "experience" it may not be worth it.


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## turbo5upra

I jokingly made a comment on a friends Facebook page a few days ago about this... 100k watts of bass? This makes no sense... Can anyone tell me how to directly convert 100kw to bass? (Yes I know I can assume it will be stupid loud)


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## thehatedguy

50 of the PK Sounds sub cabinets...so about 100 18s.


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## turbo5upra

This was the pic posted... My point was simply this- it makes no sense... How about 80 degrees of sunshine? You get the idea that it's warm outside but it's not relative.


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## turbo5upra

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> I wonder if the neighbors complain much.



I lived above 3 miles straight line from the last Woodstock... I sat in my back yard and might just as well have been there- it wasn't just the music but I could hear clear as day talking on stage.


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## thehatedguy

It's bass and bass music in the open air...it's going to take a LOT of displacement to make good bass out in the open.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Patrick Bateman said:


> The sound quality on this video is crap, but the reaction of the crowd when the beat drops gives you a general idea of how nutty it gets:
> 
> Bassnectar @ Bass Center VII - Intro "Here We Go" - YouTube
> 
> You can see the camera pan the crowd, and there seriously isn't a single person that isn't losing their marbles. I've been to football games, baseball games, trance shows, rock shows, you name it. Nothing comes close to how berzerk people get at a good dubstep show. It reminds me a little bit of the mid 90s when grunge was huge and when Rage Against the Machine or Ministry played the entire crowd would be moshing. Dubstep is basically this generation's heavy metal.



That crowd was pretty mild, actually, you must not be going to the right metal shows lol.

In all seriousness, I would probably go check this out just to experience it if we didn't have previous mandatory plans. Let us know how it goes.


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## thehatedguy

I once saw Slayer...the crowd started making the metal folding chairs look like pop corn during the sound check. I knew that would be a good show, no, I didn't get in the pit at that show. Oddly the pit at Cannibal Corpse while intense wasn't as bad as the Slayer pit.

Still can't figure out- why put folding chairs out at a metal show, and more importantly, why metal folding chairs?


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## thehatedguy

I dunno, I was pretty mellow when I was tripping or rolling. Don't see too many violent people tripping on acid or shrooms...well violet to others, they are too busy wondering how the celling tiles go replaced with pieces of bread. And just walking on carpet without shoes on is enough to keep people happy on X.




TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> That crowd was pretty mild, actually, you must not be going to the right metal shows lol.
> 
> In all seriousness, I would probably go check this out just to experience it if we didn't have previous mandatory plans. Let us know how it goes.


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## Sine Swept

Did anyone ever catch the Vibe tunnel?

The Bass Tunnel | VIBE Audio


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## thehatedguy

No, but I did experience the MMATS infrasonic bass room at the IASCA Finals in the 90s...it was playing 11 hertz the whole time. The inside was the box and the door was the port.


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## Patrick Bateman

Excision recent announced a 2014 tour, promising 150,000 watts of PK sound. To put that number in perspective, fellow DJ Datsik toured with a 30,000 watt system for the Firepower Tour and his manager was actually arrested for playing the system at 35%. 150,000 watts will possibly set structure fires.

Excision Hints at Ultra Appearance Following 2014 Tour Announcement


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## Patrick Bateman

Notloudenuf said:


> They are coming to Lincoln Theatre in Raleigh. LT is tiny. The main room dimensions are 38' wide X 100' deep and 25' high clear span ceilings. There is no way 150K watts of bass would ever make it into that building. They even have an asterisk next to the date saying * DENOTES EXECUTIONER PRODUCTION CANNOT BE USED DUE TO VENUE CONSTRAINTS
> So IDK what to do. It seems insane but if I can't get the whole "experience" it may not be worth it.


I'd listen to a few of the sets off of Soundcloud and decide if you like the music. If you don't - it probably wouldn't be worth going without the huge PA setup. (AKA "the executioner")

But with the huge PA setup, it's pretty epic. When I went to the Mothership tour in 2011 I'd only heard about four tracks and I had a blast. (Because the audio/visual setup was so over the top.)

BTW, on the website it says that the Executioner will be in Raleigh:
EXCISION 2014 TOUR TICKETS ON SALE NOW
But, obviously, you make a good point. In a really small venue you seriously run the risk of damaging the place. I've been to the Commodore in BC, and according to the website, they wouldn't allow The Executioner there. Yet I've also been to The Roseland in Portland, and they allowed it. In fact, that's the first place I saw Excision. (Second is tomorrow at the Shrine.)

I didn't want to take any chances, so I'm making the three hour round trip to Los Angeles, because the venue is much bigger than the one near my home in San Diego.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

thehatedguy said:


> I dunno, I was pretty mellow when I was tripping or rolling. Don't see too many violent people tripping on acid or shrooms...well violet to others, they are too busy wondering how the celling tiles go replaced with pieces of bread. And just walking on carpet without shoes on is enough to keep people happy on X.


Lol, I was in the store when I read this, my wife had to ask why I was laughing so hard. 

I saw Pennywise outdoors once, the pit there got huge, and with the dust you couldn't see the stage if you were in the back. But by far the craziest was Lamb Of God in a small venue in Fresno. I would say by half way through, 95% of the room had turned into a pit. It went all the way to the front of the stage, and to the outside of both side walls. Might have been 1000 people (really small venue) and almost all of them were in there.


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## Patrick Bateman

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Lol, I was in the store when I read this, my wife had to ask why I was laughing so hard.
> 
> I saw Pennywise outdoors once, the pit there got huge, and with the dust you couldn't see the stage if you were in the back. But by far the craziest was Lamb Of God in a small venue in Fresno. I would say by half way through, 95% of the room had turned into a pit. It went all the way to the front of the stage, and to the outside of both side walls. Might have been 1000 people (really small venue) and almost all of them were in there.


I had really dyslexic musical tastes as a kid. I listened to a lot of rap music, but also a lot of really fey indie music. In 1988 I picked up a Ministry album called "The Land of Rape and Honey." I was totally shocked - the band used to sound like an American rip off of Depeche Mode. But 'The Land of Rape and Honey' was just raw as hell.

So in 1990 I saw them on their 'Mind is a Terrible Thing to Taste' tour. That was probably the biggest mosh pit I've seen in my life. It was held at The Hollywood Palladium. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the biggest show that the band had ever played EVER. (In their hometown of Chicago they played The Metro, which was a venue that's a third the size.)

It was just Total ****ing Pandemonium. And GREAT. It was like an entire army of industrial rivetheads getting their aggression out on the floor. Just complete chaos.

Ministry - So What - (LIVE) - YouTube

^^ This was the video they released, but it wasn't filmed in LA. IMHO, the LA venue would have been 10x better because it was just so much bigger

To give you an idea of how silly they were before this, here's one of their first hits:

Ministry - Work For Love (7" Version) - YouTube

Yes, that's actually the same band.


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## thehatedguy

Yeah the LOG show I was at was pretty brutal too. The Black Dhalia was good too.




TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Lol, I was in the store when I read this, my wife had to ask why I was laughing so hard.
> 
> I saw Pennywise outdoors once, the pit there got huge, and with the dust you couldn't see the stage if you were in the back. But by far the craziest was Lamb Of God in a small venue in Fresno. I would say by half way through, 95% of the room had turned into a pit. It went all the way to the front of the stage, and to the outside of both side walls. Might have been 1000 people (really small venue) and almost all of them were in there.


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## SkizeR

i would love to see lamb of god live..


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I've seen them 3 times now, but nothing compared to the small venue. Saw them with slipknot once, too. I think in general the small venues in my area just have better sound.


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## Patrick Bateman

I seriously think this type of bass will get banned at some point.
Club owners get a little upset when you demolish their venues with bass:

_"At least four people were injured after part of the ceiling of a Chicago music hall came crashing down on concertgoers early Saturday morning.
The incident happened around 2 a.m. at the Concord Music Hall in the 2000 block of North Milwaukee Avenue in Logan Square, police said.
The performer, Los Angeles-based DJ Datsik, had just begun his set when witnesses say the ceiling began to shake.
“The sound system inside the venue was so intense, it had so much bass, that it literally shook the ceiling down,” said witness Ryan Chun.


Source: Ceiling Collapses on Concertgoers During Chicago Performance | NBC Chicago_"

BTW, this was a PK Sound rig, smaller than the one that Excision is touring with. (Both DJs are from Kelowna in Canada, and PK is from Canada too.)

Ceiling Collapses on Concertgoers During Chicago Performance | NBC Chicago


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## cajunner

they will have to put up some limits if more people are hurt.

and they probably have to add some kind of warning on the tickets about heart palpitations and inducing panic attacks.

might be a good idea to go and see them, or these kinds of shows, before they sanitize it for the general consumption.


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## Sine Swept

The best "Bass" I was ever witness to was some Primus for the Antipop tour.

As far as open field loud, was in Barrie, Ontario for Lollapalooza 1995 featuring Cypress Hill, Hole and Sonic Youth. Just standing in an open field the bass was enough to rattle inside your chest and in the back of your throat. It was the only time I ever felt the show was this loud. It was also my first and last concert without earplugs. I was 15 and remember my ears ringing for hours after the show. I religiously wear hearing protection.


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## Patrick Bateman

Okay, now it looks like there's a new problem with these massive systems:
*It looks like a lot of venues can't supply enough juice.*

At Saturday's show the bass didn't seem as monstrous as it was in Portland, but I figured that was just because the venue was a lot larger. (Bigger venue = lower SPL.)

But then halfway through Excision's set, POW, the music stops. I didn't feel like waiting around for them to figure out their technical difficulties, so I up and left.

This is really getting old, because this is the second show in a row that's advertised one of these monster systems, then failed to deliver. (Datsik in San Diego was the same ********, advertised a monster system and didn't deliver.)

This is just speculation on my part, but *I wonder if the problem is that they're running the systems too hard and for too long?* For instance, when I saw Bassnectar in Vancouver, his set was EASILY ten decibels louder than the DJ that preceded him. And the system at the Bassnectar show was incredibly dynamic. But the system at the Excision show on Saturday was mushy and un-dynamic by comparison. Here's my educated guess on what's happening:

If you run a subwoofer at 10%, the temperature of the sub is going to be around 100-120 degrees fahrenheit. Basically it's loafing. But if you run a subwoofer balls out, the temperature is going to rise. For the first 30 minutes it might be 120 degrees, but after an hour or two, it's going to be hot enough to fry eggs on. Perhaps a hundred and fifty degrees.

So Bassnectar is smart - he's keeping the subs cool until he does his set, and that means that his subs won't be hitting their thermal limits until the end of his set.

But Excision has the volume cranked to eleven during the entire show, and there were FOUR DJs before he played. That's almost five hours of subwoofer abuse. So by the time he gets to the stage, they're blowing breakers. (As the voice coil heats up, the volume goes down, so there's a tendency to turn the volume UP to compensate. This turns into a spiral, and by the end of the night it might take 100,000 watts to generate the same SPL that you could generate with 10,000 watts when the voice coils were cool.)

Here's some comments that illustrate this problem:

_" the sound cut out and they had to stop the show in the middle of both Crnkn and Eptic. then when excision came out it happened to him and they ****ed up the visuals on his stage. after the last ****up he was like ****it ****s all ****ed up im spinning a set with CD's and someones getting fired tonight"

...

"The 150000 watts system wasn't around. .. power surge killed the music like 5 times ... n excision performance didn't even have 20000 watts of bass... I was in the front didn't even go deaf .. weak sound"_


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## onebadmonte

Weak sause. Ill spend my $60 at red lobster instead. :/


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## cajunner

how are they getting these power levels out of the venues?

I mean, a commercial space like an auditorium or dance hall, or amphitheater isn't set up for steel mill smelting levels of electricity.

I can understand, a few transformers for about 50-60K of available, but when your sound system is dragging down 150K the odds are good that the infrastructure is giving out.

I think it's a lot like circuit breakers, in that you can run over the limit for a short while but once you get that thing heated up, it's going to have a much shorter duration of overload to trip, as before when it's cold.

I can run 2250 watts through a 15 amp breaker for a couple minutes, when it should kick at 1875, and this might be what's giving them trouble.

After 5 hours of warming up for the big boy pants, the venue's infrastructure is already limited by it's own cushion of overhead being whittled away, and going to the edge of the power envelope means something is going into protect.

I'd like to see if 120V, has the same voltage droop under load when the transformers are hit with that 150K load, it might sag to where the amps have to work with 110V or less.

I think they're hitting the venue infrastructure limits, moreso than the amps being turned up because of power compression.

or, they might have 200K or more available and I'm completely off-base, and it is just the fault of the sound system.

the reason I think my hypothesis holds is that the equipment is the same at successful shows, the variable is the venue's electrical supply grid.


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## MikeT1982

Hey guys what's up? Another tech question, what kind of mid air SPL readings do you think they reach at these shows? Are we talking open air past 150dB barrier (not near the ports I mean in audience). If so that's pretty nuts... Thanks!


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## thehatedguy

I wouldn't think it would be anywhere near 150dB.


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## MikeT1982

Yeah that's what I was thinking, I'm oldschool guy though so to me the 130's is needed and 140's sweetspot and satisfies, 150's nuts, 160's top fuel dragster crazy (loudest I've ever heard was Orion Demo van in 2001 that supposedly did low 160's (on old AC SA3055 w/SPL-180 mic so....) and I was scared). 170's I'm terrified of lol and I love bass music its one of my favorite genre's of music. Open air 130's though is insane, so if they're in 140's in the standing waves its got to be a beautiful experience!!! Probably sort of like when I heard a Clarion SRW8000 (32" Thunderdome) in person on 300 WRMs...def not meter happy...but an experience I'll never forget it just moved your shirt, insides, the drywall was creaking, wonderful!


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## Patrick Bateman

Some random observations:

I've been to a series of SPL events, and they're *nothing* like a good PK Sound system. At SPL events the sound is mostly contained in the car, so the experience at those events feels a lot like watching a locomotive going past. You can *hear* that it's loud but you don't get that 'punch in the chest' effect that you do at a PK show

I ran a spectral analysis of some dubstep tracks, and I think I figured out the "PK magic." (data is here: PK Sound CX800: 95% efficient?? - Page 12 - diyAudio) Basically a lot of these tracks have deep bass *with no harmonics.* I think the lack of harmonics is basically the secret sauce here.

Here's how this works, bear with me if this makes no sense:
In conventional music, there are lots of harmonics from the instruments themselves. For instance, when you play 40hz on a bass guitar, *the harmonic at 80hz* may be 75% as loud as the fundamental. And we hear high frequencies a lot better than we hear low frequencies. Due to this, *the harmonic may "sound" louder than the 40hz fundamental.*

Now if you strip out the harmonic, *you can play the fundamental really really really loud* without making everything sound muddy.

Take a look at my analysis of that Bassnectar track and you'll see this. The bass is TWENTY ONE DECIBELS louder than the rest of the track.

Back in the day, I remember guys would EQ their stereos so that it was all bass. But that sounds muddy fast, *because of the harmonics*

But strip out the harmonics? Then you can go nuts with the bass level.

To give you an idea of how insane it is to have twenty decibels of extra bass, if you were giving your midrange a hundred watts and you wanted to get your subs up by twenty decibels, *you'd have to dump ten thousand watts into your subwoofers.* And that assumes that they're the same efficiency! Which they usually aren't.

If the subs are just three decibels lower in efficiency, you'd have to put 20,000watts into the subs and 100 into the mids.



Now, obviously a lot of people will say that drum and bass had lots of bass before dubstep was around. But I think that D&B and rap had harmonics in the bass. This is for a really simple reason:

Drum & Bass and rap was largely based on sampling in the 90s. So the music was electronic, but it was sampling real instruments. (Which have harmonics.) Even old school electronic music from the 70s and 80s had harmonics, because a lot of the synths were designed to imitate the sound of real instruments (which have harmonics.)

IMHO, this idea of just using pure sine waves for bass is largely a product of everyone getting their asses sued off for sampling. But one way or another, we now have a lot of electronic music that's completely lacking in harmonics, and THAT allows them to crank up the low frequencies to an earth shaking level without it sounding like mud.


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## MikeT1982

Great post man, makes perfect sense! The stuff I really dig (DJ Magic Mike, Bass Mekanik, Techmaster PEB, Beat Dominator (mekanik's alias early on in 90's), Bass 305, basically all the "oldschool" Miami and Euro bass stuff, seems to be mostly pure sine tones (fundamentals as you just taught me) with not much harmonics. That's something I always loved was lack of harmonics in the bass. If there's a song with sine wave bass sweeps and drops I'm all over it, (must have equally great treble and mids to show off the highs). I'll have to check out these guys I might like them.


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## thehatedguy

So you like some 20s and lows? 123456 bass!

That's the stuff I liked back in the day.


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## Patrick Bateman

MikeT1982 said:


> Hey guys what's up? Another tech question, what kind of mid air SPL readings do you think they reach at these shows? Are we talking open air past 150dB barrier (not near the ports I mean in audience). If so that's pretty nuts... Thanks!


I did some fairly intense sims on the PK boxes over at the diyaudio thread, and the conclusion I came to was basically that they go a little louder and a LOT lower than boxes did in the 90s.

So it's not so much that your ears are getting blown out, it's that you're getting massaged with so much deep bass that it feels like something you've never experienced outside of a car.

If you've ever been inside a car when it was playing some deep bass and the subs were sucking the air out of your lungs, it's kinda like that.

Here's some calculations:










The rig at the Full Flex Express had something like sixty subwoofers.
Each one is good for 130dB at one meter, running at their max.
The calculator at sengpielaudio.com says that with sixty of those on tap, that gets you 128dB at ten meters. (about 30ft.)
This number doesn't make sense to me. As I understand it, that number should be 156dB, but maybe I'm missing something.

It's a real p.i.t.a. to get loud, and going from sixty cabinets to just six cabinets gets you 136dB. (This assumes that going from six to sixty cabinets gets you ten decibels of output, and multiplying the power by ten gets you another ten dB.)


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## Patrick Bateman

MikeT1982 said:


> Great post man, makes perfect sense! The stuff I really dig (DJ Magic Mike, Bass Mekanik, Techmaster PEB, Beat Dominator (mekanik's alias early on in 90's), Bass 305, basically all the "oldschool" Miami and Euro bass stuff, seems to be mostly pure sine tones (fundamentals as you just taught me) with not much harmonics. That's something I always loved was lack of harmonics in the bass. If there's a song with sine wave bass sweeps and drops I'm all over it, (must have equally great treble and mids to show off the highs). I'll have to check out these guys I might like them.


The funny thing is that DVDs trump all of these guys. I used to have a giant 10hz tapped horn in my bedroom, the thing was bigger than a refrigerator*, and once in a while a sound effect would cause the whole room to shake. There's some movie sound effects that go into the single digits. I've never seen this in a music track. I *thought* there was some six hertz bass on a Plastikman track called 'Ask Yourself', but it turned out to be a false positive, basically the filter I used to analyze the track wasn't set up right.

* Night of The Living Bassheads - diyAudio


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## LumbermanSVO

I work in the production industry so I'm a bit familiar with this stuff. I'm mostly a video guy, but audio fascinates me.

At a local(Richmond, Va) soul/rap show this year the local sound company showed up with 24 sub cabinets, each with three 18s with around 50-60kw for the subs. In an open air amphitheater it got pretty loud

I worked the Srillex show when it came through, they brought their own power supply, it was a semi trailer mounted generator. Their power distro was a single frame that was about eight feet long, six feet high and three feet wide. It was so heavy that when they set it on the mobile stage, it broke the deck, they had to put it under the stage. I don't know how much power was running to the sound system, but it did have a wall of subs like in the above picture. The whole setup was LOUD. At about a mile away it was as loud as your average club on a Saturday night. 

Their video screen was a pretty slick prototype unit, incredibly easy to repair on the fly and VERY light.

One that stands out for being unique, but not because of how loud it got, is Sarah McLachlan's current tour. I watch a lot of shows on the side wing at that venue and the sound is usually ok in that location. But on this show there was almost no sound at all. The sound reflecting off the restroom in the back of the open air venue was the loudest sound source when not in front of the stage. As you walked towards the seats there was a window of about 3 feet where the volume level increased dramatically. It was a pretty amazing thing to experience.

We couldn't use her video wall because we can't get the height out of that venue. Each column of LED is one piece that rolls up on an axle and they can't simply leave off the bottom sections to make it shorter. Normally a video wall is made up of individual panels that you piece together, then scale the video to fit.


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## Patrick Bateman

Yes!

Here's some things that amazed me about these shows:

1) At the Bassnectar show in Vancouver BC, the sound behind the stage was easily 20dB quieter than in front of the stage. The cardioid subs he was using was basically eliminating the reflection off of the back wall. (Okay, 20dB of attenuation isn't' perfect, but it makes a huge difference in tightening up the bass.)

2) At the Skrillex show in BC the concrete walls were flexing. I've never seen that in my life; so much bass it was literally making the walls flex like a balloon.

I have no idea what is up with the Canucks, but YOWZA do they love bass.


P.S. The location in my profile is a goof, I actually live in San Diego and used to live in Seattle and Portland. BC was a two hour trip from my home.


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## LumbermanSVO

Yes, the cardioid setups are becoming more popular. My local sound company just started playing with them this summer so that they could do it if the customer requested. When I asked one of the guys about it he explained it and seemed a tad surprised that a silly video guy understood 

With a cardioid setup running it is much more pleasant to spend countless hours backstage babysitting equipment, especially when trying to catch a nap on some empty cases! 

I have a picture of a friend napping against 12 of the cabinets at the soul/rap show I mentioned, while 50 Cent was playing! That guy can nap anywhere...

What's most amazing about using sound to make concrete flex, is think about how much the moving speaker parts weigh compared to the concrete!

I just moved to Richmond about 4-5 months ago, I just forgot to update my location. I was born and raised in the Greenwood neighborhood of Seattle and have spent most of my life there. Right now I'm sitting in Alabama, I've got 7 LED walls to start setting up on a golf corse tomorrow, the humidity is gonna kill me!


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## LumbermanSVO

Also, what you say about experiencing that much bass in an open air venue is spot on. There is no way to compare it to anything else. I've built a car that did 162 on music from the passenger seat, with the doors open, it's a neat experience for sure, but it doesn't compare to loud bass in an open air venue. I think the open air bass wins because you don't have a vibrating car seat, door panels and a thin floorboard distracting you from the sound.


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## T3mpest

LumbermanSVO said:


> Also, what you say about experiencing that much bass in an open air venue is spot on. There is no way to compare it to anything else. I've built a car that did 162 on music from the passenger seat, with the doors open, it's a neat experience for sure, but it doesn't compare to loud bass in an open air venue. I think the open air bass wins because you don't have a vibrating car seat, door panels and a thin floorboard distracting you from the sound.


Sadly this. Also been in several mid 50's on music cars and every good EDM show I've been to is more impressive. Bassnectar at Spring Awakening last year from literally a football field away (it was in soldier field lol) hurt my ears during a transient peak, playing va va voom. The stupid koo koo clock noise was Loud, bass wasnt' super impressive at that distance, but you could hear it and feel it some, I know by 50 yards away you could begin to feel the grass moving and your chest had some pressure on it.. I also heard them indoors in bloomington a couple years ago and they were moving clothes inside the middle of the venue on the floor, using less than 1/4 their gear apparently.


Despite all this the quality is the main difference. Nothing rattles, nothing vibrates and it's not nearfield so you get a very different sound to it. Especially on the lower stuff.


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## Patrick Bateman

I caught Nine Inch Nails a few weeks ago. They had an L'Acoustic line array set up. It's one of these newer array designs, the ones that mimic the Danley Synergy horn. (Basically the midranges and the compression drivers are mounted coaxially, like a Synergy horn.)

During the concert I noticed something I've *never* heard at a show: imaging.

It wasn't pinpoint, this definitely wasn't The Magic Bus, but it's the first time I've heard a big rig like that actually have something approaching stereo seperation. I'm guessing it's due to a couple things:


































1) Coaxially mounting the midranges and the tweeters gets us a point source from about 300hz - 20khz
2) Line arrays still suck, but they've come a long way. With good shading we can lower the level of the edges so it doesn't create all of the horrendous comb filtering that's a staple of line arrays.


There was as an odd side effect though: It sounded polite! I think this was due to the absolutely insane number of elements, the entire system was basically loafing. *It was a very odd sensation.* I almost wish they had a way to crank up the distortion. The sensation was a lot like when I listened to some well known tracks on Jon's Magic Bus. The distortion is insanely low, but it's so low it almost feels like it might need to be added back.

I guess this is one of those things you probably get used to, but I'm not entirely sure I *want* my music to sound that clean. Again, this goes against the whole idea of hifi, but Nine Inch Nails playing at 120dB but sounding clear as an unmuddied lake was a bit odd.


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## BP1Fanatic

MikeT1982 said:


> Great post man, makes perfect sense! The stuff I really dig (DJ Magic Mike, Bass Mekanik, Techmaster PEB, Beat Dominator (mekanik's alias early on in 90's), Bass 305, basically all the "oldschool" Miami and Euro bass stuff, seems to be mostly pure sine tones (fundamentals as you just taught me) with not much harmonics. That's something I always loved was lack of harmonics in the bass. If there's a song with sine wave bass sweeps and drops I'm all over it, (must have equally great treble and mids to show off the highs). I'll have to check out these guys I might like them.


My TWO Pandora stations are DJ Magic Mike (for work) and Public Enemy (for truck and home)!


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## LumbermanSVO

I've worked with the L'Acoustic stuff before, I've never had a problem with their sound. The thing that always impressed me was how light it was compared to your typical touring cabinet. When you are pushing/pulling those things up and down truck ramps you REALLY learn to appreciate the newer, lighter gear these days.





Patrick Bateman said:


> I caught Nine Inch Nails a few weeks ago. They had an L'Acoustic line array set up. It's one of these newer array designs, the ones that mimic the Danley Synergy horn. (Basically the midranges and the compression drivers are mounted coaxially, like a Synergy horn.)
> 
> During the concert I noticed something I've *never* heard at a show: imaging.
> 
> It wasn't pinpoint, this definitely wasn't The Magic Bus, but it's the first time I've heard a big rig like that actually have something approaching stereo seperation. I'm guessing it's due to a couple things:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Coaxially mounting the midranges and the tweeters gets us a point source from about 300hz - 20khz
> 2) Line arrays still suck, but they've come a long way. With good shading we can lower the level of the edges so it doesn't create all of the horrendous comb filtering that's a staple of line arrays.
> 
> 
> There was as an odd side effect though: It sounded polite! I think this was due to the absolutely insane number of elements, the entire system was basically loafing. *It was a very odd sensation.* I almost wish they had a way to crank up the distortion. The sensation was a lot like when I listened to some well known tracks on Jon's Magic Bus. The distortion is insanely low, but it's so low it almost feels like it might need to be added back.
> 
> I guess this is one of those things you probably get used to, but I'm not entirely sure I *want* my music to sound that clean. Again, this goes against the whole idea of hifi, but Nine Inch Nails playing at 120dB but sounding clear as an unmuddied lake was a bit odd.


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## Lou Frasier2

thehatedguy said:


> Excuse my ignorance as I am not into this kind of music in any way, but what exactly do you do at these kinds of concerts? Seems like MDMA, LSD, or something else would make the experience more fun.


ah yes,the days of lsd,boy the 80s were awesome


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## plushterry

So did anyone actually go and check out the 100,000W rig?


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## Lycancatt

I don't think the whole rig was ever deployed all at once but if it was,probably a lot of that wattage is marketing.


I regularly work with a rig that's using 12 crown k2 amps bridged at 1600 rms into a pair of horn loaded 15s on each amp. it is..very powerful, also very big and not tour/truckpack friendly. but the sound I get out of this old no compromise cabinet design with updated drivers and power is nothing short of amazing.

I cant find a pic of it for obvious reasons but if you google image search "klipsche mcm1900 burning man" you will see pics of the rig..it doesn't just go to burning man.


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## Rusty

Having been to countless drum amd bass shows and half the number of dubstep shows in the last decade, I'd have to say that that the 3 loudest shows were ltj bukem, chase and status(before they went rockish a la pendulum), and caspa and rusko. 

Ltj was playing in this area of the LA sports arena that was an intersection for human traffic, sidewalk area, and when he went on, I swear the concrete slabs I was standing on were shifting, bouncing. 

Chases and status played on another area, a large balcony of the same sports arena, and had the tightest bass. 

Caspa and rusko played in a large warehouse, and by far I had experienced the most spl in one sitting. 

Actually, the most spl I had experienced was at a virus records party at the wmc in 2007. My first dubstep party, which had three levels, the upper two being dnb, and the first level beong dubstep. The first level was really tight and small for the equipment that was ised. It was roughly 16000 sqft, with a bar in the middle and subwoofers lined against all the walls. There was so much bass, my internal organs and eyeballs were being rattled. It was definitely a double hearing protection zone(earpligs and earmuffs), but my body literally could not take the deep spl of that first floor I could only take a couple minutes of exposure at a time. 

I loved going to dnb shows in the early 2000s, but soon after the headliner, typically the sound would fall off from being pushed way too far.


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## strakele

*Re: 150,000 watts of bass*

So I went to see the 2016 version of this last night in Dallas - the Paradox tour. Something reminded me of this thread last week and I looked up Excision and saw that he happened to be playing not far from me the following weekend so I decided to go and see what it's like. I'm normally a hard rock/heavy metal guy and have been to dozens of concerts for those kind of bands but nothing electronic like this.

It was an indoor warehouse type venue for 3-4000 people. The advertised 150,000 watt system included a pair of 7-cabinet PK Trinity steerable line arrays and full stage width of double stacked CX800 subwoofer cabinets (around 40 total I'd think, so 80 18" subs). 

Seems like they definitely fixed the issue talked about I think in this thread where the opening acts got everything too heated up before the headliner to the point breakers started tripping. That was not a factor last night - the openers were at least 6dB on average lower in volume than Excision, so it was a noticeable increase when he started. I found myself thinking my car could probably keep up with the output during the openers, but the main act was on a different level.

Anyway, I stood next to the FOH engineer, so around 40-50 feet from the stage and pretty well centered. The effect probably would have been even more so if I was front row, but regardless, it was pretty intense. I wouldn't quite say it sucked the air out of my lungs, but it did make breathing feel different, hit the resonant frequency of my nostrils, made my clothing vibrate, punched me in the chest, and I could feel the air pressure in my hair as well. It was most intense from 45-90Hz, but there were times where you could hear it dropped down into the low 20's with usable output. The best part is that with the prodigious output, there are no distracting rattles or vibrations from a seat, car interior panels, or stuff mounted on walls or in drawers in a house, and no weird modes or nulls. It's super clean, and like Patrick discussed somewhere on here, the lack of harmonics in the deep bass keeps it from sounding muddy even at very high levels. 

So all in all it was pretty cool. I could have done without 3 hours of opening DJs since at the end of the day, a lot of this dubstep stuff is pretty formulaic and sounds pretty much the same. But with Excision's laser/projection setup combined with the impressive sound, it was definitely a neat experience.


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## thehatedguy

The 18Sound subs being used were tested in Voice Coil last month. Custom OEM jobs with 2 ohm coils. 

http://www.eighteensound.com/Products/Articles/Detail/catid/4050/eid/3322/18id

Wait, wrong manufacture...these are in the Powersoft products.


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## strakele

Yeah idk what subs they use. Says they're neo motors, 5.3" coils, and 28mm of xmax. Could probably narrow it down pretty good with that.

Also I think my estimate of 40 cabinets may have been off, it was probably more like 30. Worth noting is that the amp in the Trinity cabinets is actually super powerful - 3x more so than the amp in the CX800 subs. 6000W vs 2000W. So I'm sure the 150KW includes the arrays too, meaning they account for over half of the 150KW. So it was probably more like 60KW of bass - 2000W x 30 cabinets. Lot of sound either way.


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## Patrick Bateman

strakele said:


> Yeah idk what subs they use. Says they're neo motors, 5.3" coils, and 28mm of xmax. Could probably narrow it down pretty good with that.
> 
> Also I think my estimate of 40 cabinets may have been off, it was probably more like 30. Worth noting is that the amp in the Trinity cabinets is actually super powerful - 3x more so than the amp in the CX800 subs. 6000W vs 2000W. So I'm sure the 150KW includes the arrays too, meaning they account for over half of the 150KW. So it was probably more like 60KW of bass - 2000W x 30 cabinets. Lot of sound either way.


18 Sound 18NLW9600 is the driver

IIRC, the amps are now Powersoft but they used to be sourced from a different company


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## Patrick Bateman

Lycancatt said:


> I don't think the whole rig was ever deployed all at once but if it was,probably a lot of that wattage is marketing.
> 
> 
> I regularly work with a rig that's using 12 crown k2 amps bridged at 1600 rms into a pair of horn loaded 15s on each amp. it is..very powerful, also very big and not tour/truckpack friendly. but the sound I get out of this old no compromise cabinet design with updated drivers and power is nothing short of amazing.
> 
> I cant find a pic of it for obvious reasons but if you google image search "klipsche mcm1900 burning man" you will see pics of the rig..it doesn't just go to burning man.


Over on diyaudio I crunched the numbers, comparing a 90s style set up with horns, versus a PK style setup with vented boxes. I figured that the PK setup would CRUSH the old school setup, since I've never heard bass that was anywhere near as disorienting as a PK sound setup.

Much to my surprise, the SPL levels were about the same, when I compared the two.

I believe the big difference is the cutoff; the vented boxes play about an octave deeper. It's that ability to hammer the audience with frequencies around 30-40hz.

Part of it may be the music too; I've been listening to this music for over twenty years now, and somewhere around ten years ago the musicians started to gravitate towards tracks where there are long breaks between the bass. Dubstep is the most obvious example of this; there's no bass for the first forty seconds, and then the drop comes in, the bass is there for a minute or two, and then the next track comes on.

That forty second gap doesn't just give the audience a break, it also gives the speakers a break, and probably allows them to be pushed harder and longer. I don't recall music from the 90s doing this, like house or techno. Techno in particular tended to be really monotonous. When I went to DEMF it was kinda difficult to figure out when the tracks changes because they frequently sound the same.


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## strakele

Patrick Bateman said:


> 18 Sound 18NLW9600 is the driver
> 
> IIRC, the amps are now Powersoft but they used to be sourced from a different company


Ah ok. So the 28mm was p-p xmax. 14mm one way. Looks like PK could put a good bit more power to 'em if they wanted.


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## thehatedguy

If it's Powersoft or Powersoft amps, then they are using the 18id sub, not the NLW9600. At least according to the Voice Coil review of the sub last month.


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## redit

Can this be correct?: Powersoft Electrifies 58th Annual GRAMMY Awards with 72 K10 Amplifiers - KLTV.com - Tyler, Longview, Jacksonville |ETX News


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## LumbermanSVO

I don't know about the audio guys, but when I do shows(LED video) we typically have the show gear plus 10% for spares on hand. If the 72 number is close, then that's still a LOT of amps.


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## redit

LumbermanSVO said:


> I don't know about the audio guys, but when I do shows(LED video) we typically have the show gear plus 10% for spares on hand. If the 72 number is close, then that's still a LOT of amps.


I was wondering more about 720,000 watts in the Staples Center for an awards show. Seemed like a lot.


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## strakele

It does seem like a lot but they probably just brought a bunch of the same model amp because it was easy and they could be used for anything. From the description, it wasn't just a pair of line arrays and some subs. Those amps ran every speaker making sound that night. While fewer amps probably could have powered everything easily, all the upper level fills, monitors, and everything need to have their own channels for DSP, input, and t/a, so that more than actual power requirements is likely what necessitated so man amplifiers.


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## redit

Ah, that makes sense.


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## LumbermanSVO

I'm sitting backstage at a corporate gig right now and they brought about as much power as you'd find at the small stage of a stage fair.

Heck, I have over $100k tied up in my one "small" video rack.


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