# My mini studio



## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

Just thought I'd make an online log of my current room setup for reference - this seems like a good place. Here it is:










*Desk:* Studio RTA Producer Station with:

Ergotron LX Desk Mount LCD Arm
Gateway FHD2400

*Interface:* Guitar Rig 3 Kontrol 

*Speaker Amp:* Tweak City Audio Gizmo

*Speakers:* ELT 525M (Rosewood) with: 

Ninja Master Xover Upgrade
NoRez
Vampire Binding Posts #BP1.5HEX 
Aluminum Binding Post Plate
Auralex MoPADs


























*Subwoofer:* Martin Logan Dynamo with:

SubDude HD (new - not shown)

*Headphone Amp:* Purity Audio K.I.C.A.S Caliente

*Headphones:* Sennheiser HD 650 

*Also shown:*

Synesthesia Mandala v2.0 (sold... begrudgingly)

Welp, I guess aside from the main PC components, peripherals, and other music gear, that's about it.


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> You seriously spent $300+ on a set of TM monitors and $350 on a crossover upgrade that cost no more than $50 to make?
> 
> Seriously, two foil inductors, 4 capacitors, and what appear to be 3 resistors?
> 
> ...


Actually, no. I have a pair of ELT 525m cherry monitors (which were on sale for $170) that I initially intended to upgrade for near-field use, but then I found someone online selling this decked out pair in Rosewood for $450 total: Ninja Master+ ELT525M's in Rosewood SOLD 

So I bought them, and used the stock cherry pair for surrounds in my HT. 

I can't say personally how the parts used for the upgrade compare to those found at PE and such, but I have a feeling some people would disagree that they're on equal terms. I dunno, I'm happy with the speakers.


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> I expect you to disagree. Who likes being told that they paid more for something and got less than if they would have gone another route?


Not disagreeing - just saying I didn't pay the original price for each part. But yeah you're probably right. I probably would have easily gone the route you recommend if I had known back then. Matter of fact, I almost went this route: 

N2X - N2X (those Neo 3 PDR tweets look pretty cool)

What do you think about those? Thanks for the info.


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## hottcakes (Jul 14, 2010)

hey xtreme, you gonna have some sort of build log or design for that setup? i have a pair of those ns6's laying around and want to try something with them this coming summer. is that the cheap buyout tweeter? baja or something, too lazy to check right now.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

XtremeRevolution, I love your enthusiasm on DIY audio, but you have to understand that economies of scale need to be considered before jumping to conclusions on what has a higher value. In this case I tend to agree that you may be able to build something that is inherently better than the monitors listed above. However, unless there is a substantial difference in quality, there are times that buying a pre-designed and manufactured speaker (especially used) is the better choice for SOME budgets. 

I have noticed this in the sub $200-300/Pair market. Take the Behringer 2030P/20301P as an example (discontinued now I believe, unfortunately). I dare you do build a comparable constant directivity monitor that can substantially surpass the performance of this monitor, in both the 6.5" and 8" flavors. Although as a studio monitor the performance may be lacking compared to more established brands such as Mackie, used for home audio there is very little that can match the performance to price ration, let alone surpass it by a significant margin. 

If you don't believe me, do a search on the tech talk parts express forums as well as other home theater forums for individual measurements. Pay close attention to the vertical listening window, horizontal directivity and linear on axis response curves. There are downsides, such as sub-par cabinet construction, but they are offset by decent driver quality (possible Seas OEM, don't remember), excellent crossover design and relatively low distortion. 

That is why I currently own FIVE. I purchased two of the 2030Ps NEW from Zzounds for $135 shipped. They then increased in price as people started to notice them and I managed to score three barely used ones for $65 shipped each. All in all, I have spent $330 shipped on my monitors for home theater and they by far surpass the lower cost monitors I have built, including some zaph audio designs. 

Anyway, just an observation. I'll be jumping back into the DIY world as soon as I graduate this June and have a steady income. Still not sure if I'm gonna keep the Behringers as a bedroom setup (my girlfriend suggested I keep them, go figure), but then I can make something a little bigger and more efficient with more power!


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

I love a great discussion as well!



> Yes, some. However, a set of mini TM monitors for $450 is not value. Even used, that's terrible value. Brand new, its a ripoff. $250 for a crossover is a (excuse my language) ****ing joke. Whoever paid for that originally has absolutely no clue what they're doing. Absolutely ridiculous considering that better designed crossover designs are available for *free* and the parts usually cost less than $50 for for both speakers. In addition, there will also be a substantial increase in quality. Now, I don't want to be stubborn like my dad is (and I'm a lot like him), but show me any off the shelf pre-designed and manufactured speaker, and I will prove to you on a case by case basis that you could get something 10x better if you built it yourself. Cheaper, and better sound quality. Keep in mind we are talking about a $200+ price point.


I agree with you on the cost of the crossover, but you need to remember that engineering, tooling, manufacturing, global shipment, etc is NOT free in the real world. In the DIY world we are extremely fortunate to have folks in the hobby (note some with experience in the industry) than can provide us with free tools and designs to produce our own loudspeakers. 

From this stand point, I think that $450 for a quality set of monitors is NOT unreasonable if the performance is there. In fact, I may go as far to say that most speakers sold in pairs for a net cost of under $1000 may in fact be reasonable depending on the design, materials and performance. I am basing that on this kit:

https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=35_425&products_id=8591

Which we know uses some of the best performing drivers on the market. Anything in the several thousands is completely snake oil. 

I don't know about you, but I've spend upwards of $300 on cabinet hardware alone on a set of floor standers. The cost of materials is rarely considered seriously. I have no idea how the performance matches to DIY designs, but then again no one would really know until independent measurements are conducted or we go out and buy the damn things to measure them. 

*Here is the crux of my response. This is the main issue I found with your post. You immediately discounted the "potential" performance of the monitor just because it was a commercial design, without measuring the performance yourself. Unless I missed a credible link somewhere. If so, then I apologize.
*
You also posted a link of a design using the NS6 that cost upwards of $2000. Anyone would agree its a complete scam :laugh:




> I'm not going to compare what I haven't heard, but I will say this much. I'd be willing to compare the following against the Behringer TMs:
> 
> - My new Aura NS6 project
> - Overnight Sensations MTMs
> ...


It's interesting that you mention the NTNs, because I was thinking of making a set as computer speakers. I've heard a lot of micro monitors, both DIY and commercial (under 6.5" crowd), and I always feel unimpressed by their performance. Even my 2030Ps are lacking, but not as much as you may imagine. 



> Eh, I'm not sure if I'd go there. I'm not a zaph fanboy but the guy is a damn perfectionist. Everything he makes is perfect with utterly unmatched precision. No speaker designer I know of comes close to his expertise, abilities, and talents.


This is based on the smaller/lower cost designs. I've used the BS3 project, Bargain mini and I have auditioned the BAMTM. I believe this is less attributed to the design itself and lends more towards the fact that we are comparing CD designs to traditional MT designs. Apples to oranges and it is an unfair comparison. A more fair comparison would be Zaphs Waveguide Loaded TMM 

A suggestion for you if you haven't already: Go hear a proper CD design. Some folks are not impressed but I feel like most tend to prefer it over anything else once exposed. Makes me really want to build a BIG set. 



> The only thing I don't like about the Behringers is the LFE. I can see them being excellent for nearfield listening and small bedroom listening, but for a music room or at louder volumes, they would leave me wanting more volume. This is speculation, but anything that starts to roll off at 75hz is going to limit you pretty badly.


Not necessarily, it really depends on how you want to set the crossovers and what equipment you have available. I knew that I would need subs eventually, but the design of the ported enclosure is such that it seems to exhibit a second order roll off for an octave then likely becomes steeper below that. I haven't personally verified this, but purely from my ears and an FR plot I found somewhere. The FR plots suggest that the 2030Ps have a roll off around 110hz and this is evident in listening, but the shallow roll off makes listening engaging. It also may be an increase in 2nd order harmonic distortion, leading to an apparent increase in the upper midbass frequencies. However, it was not enough to be distracting or muddy in any way. 

When I first purchased them, I had a pair at my parents living room which is a 25 foot by 30 foot room with vaulted ceilings and open to the kitchen. Wooden floors with the speakers 3 feet from any boundary. I was shocked at the performance with music. Maybe slightly lean and you can tell that something was missing, but enough to still be engaging. Once I added stereo subs, everything changed and they blend very well with my substage. The volume is more than you would ever need in a small to medium living room. Even large living rooms would work. They get LOUD because they are so damn efficient (hence the poor bass response, the iron law prevails). 


> That being said, I love a great discussion, so don't think I'm disagreeing with you. If I have to rephrase myself to be more correct though, I'd say that building your own speakers will yield massively better results than buying your own for the same price point 90% of the time. There are these speakers here and there that present magical value, but they are few and far between.


I would say that your presented figure is pretty close to reality. Not everyone has the time to build (not just about money, unfortunately). Hence, that 90% that isn't worth it for us DIY folk may become 50% to the educated music enthusiast who simply can't dedicate the time to acquire such knowledge. 

For most people, you can show them all the proof you want and they will still do the research and purchase a commercial set for convenience. Now you know why I have the Behringers. As much as wanted to build again, with graduation looming I needed a set of monitors to hold me off until I could build the next creation! And it will be BIG. 

Cheers!


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

I was just reminded to let you all know about this now so you can avoid the holiday rush - don't want to miss your chance to snag the OPUS MM SC TRANSPARENT SPEAKER CABLES. (page 3)
......................................... :surprised:


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> I was just reminded to let you all know about this now so you can avoid the holiday rush - don't want to miss your chance to snag the OPUS MM SC TRANSPARENT SPEAKER CABLES. (page 3)
> ......................................... :surprised:


Snake oil, I swear it works....:laugh:


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Eh, I will never buy a set of speakers knowing what I know now.
> 
> It all comes down to, what is my time worth and do I enjoy it?
> 
> I'm an IT Security Administrator. I don't make bank, but I get by. I'd consider myself somewhere in the middle class. It doesn't make sense for me to buy a set of $2000+ speakers because it takes me a while to save up $2000 for leisure. It's a lot easier to save up $700 for a set of Statement Monitors and get $2000+ sound.


I agree with you there, but again its also the time. 

I may be traveling a lot for my job once I graduate, so who knows when I'll have the time to build


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

XtremeRevolution said:


> Well, if you never do find the time, but have the money, you can always ask someone like me to build you an amazing set of speakers.


What's the fun in THAT? Besides, I don't think you want to ship five 50+Ib packages, nor do I want to pay for that


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## xxx_busa (May 4, 2009)

Well when you guy's get the time & money, you can explore true Hi END DIY, Ive built several and its a step into the world some can and many can't afford, I made and sold a variety of these, And the quality and time put into the network in the beginning was beyond my skills, Give it time and you too, with the right tools can craft masterpieces.

DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen

Humble Homemade Hifi






XtremeRevolution said:


> The fun in that is that you get true audiphile grade speakers for a non-audiophile price (even after my labor is included), in the event that you don't have the time to build your own, but do have the money for them.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Out of curiosity, it seems like you could get to the same point (true to recording sound) at a lower price point in a pair of headphones than you can in near-field monitors. I never understood why people wanted monitors.


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## XtremeRevolution (Dec 3, 2010)

94VG30DE said:


> Out of curiosity, it seems like you could get to the same point (true to recording sound) at a lower price point in a pair of headphones than you can in near-field monitors. I never understood why people wanted monitors.


You can't. I've tried dozens of headphones, and even listened to some $1500+ headphones with their own dedicated amplifier, and they simply don't compare. Its a completely different sound.


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

XtremeRevolution said:


> You can't. I've tried dozens of headphones, and even listened to some $1500+ headphones with their own dedicated amplifier, and they simply don't compare. Its a completely different sound.


Very true - while the sound is clean and detailed, headphones will deprive the listener of a forwardly projected sound stage, which is fundamental to accurate stereo reproduction.

There's no real headphone alternative to a proper loudspeaker setup, IMO. Although, perhaps some of the REALLY REALLY high end setups might be able to create an illusion of a forward soundstage...who knows..I know I never will. Real speakers FTW.


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