# Scan Revelator 10's



## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

Got a package today thought ya'll might enjoy looking at some pics.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

Very nice! No slit cone?  

How do you plan on using them?


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

Two for the left channel and two for the right channel to go allong with these speakers. The cabinet will be about 24" tall and the two way cabinet will sit on top of it to form floor standing towers.


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## circa40 (Jan 20, 2008)

Those scans are damn sexy


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## ///Audience (Jan 31, 2007)

azngotskills said:


> No slit cone?



x2?


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

When they get bigger than the 7" they offer two cones, Aliuminum and hard paper, neither are slit cones. These are the hard paper cone Revelators.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=148&products_id=953

Matt


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

The picture of the tower.... is that a Dyn speaker? The center 'cap' looks an awful like my mw162 with those slits cut out around it...

I can't wait to see that setup complete.


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

No, it's the Audio Technologies 7" and the Scan Air Circ 6600.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Matt R said:


> No, it's the Audio Technologies 7" and the Scan Air Circ 6600.


First time I've seen an Audio Tech speaker. Cool.


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## X Ray (Oct 29, 2007)

Those 10" Scan Speaks look F-in SICK!!!  Congrats bro. Keep us posted.


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> First time I've seen an Audio Tech speaker. Cool.


It's very similar to the one Kirk uses. Same model, little different specs, Kirks is custom. I know you've heard his.

Matt


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

those scans are sweet. what frequencies can they play?


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## Fozz (Dec 16, 2005)

I thought those were going in your truck when I saw the fist set of pics. Geat subs. 

Do you make your own cabinets??

Audio Tech?

Do you have a web site for them. Not familiar with the name!


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## Arc (Aug 25, 2006)

Fozz said:


> I thought those were going in your truck when I saw the fist set of pics. Geat subs.
> 
> Do you make your own cabinets??
> 
> ...


AT

Very nice drivers. I believe Solen still sells them.

Yep : http://www.solen.ca/v1/ It looks like they only sell the Flex drivers? I think the ones above are the C-Quenze 18's.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

tcguy85 said:


> those scans are sweet. what frequencies can they play?



wish I didnt sell mine. Damn finest tweeter you will ever use...


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

It's a sub with an fs of 19, they'll play from mid 20's to 600hz and anywhere inbetween. I don't know where the x over will be on this setup yet, it will take some experimenting.

What up Fozz, the truck will stay the same, no mods planned for it. Yes, i'll make the enclosures and probobly post pics when I get there. Have you seen these, I posted in another thread?









Matt


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

They might be nice...but they are no Ring Rev.



bdubs767 said:


> wish I didnt sell mine. Damn finest tweeter you will ever use...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And you guys would be really shocked at how low those little 4s in the last picture play...pretty nice sounding speakers.


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## Fozz (Dec 16, 2005)

Very cool Matt. I build home stuff as well. Here a few pics of some of my home system.


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

Fozz said:


> Very cool Matt. I build home stuff as well. Here a few pics of some of my home system.


Very cool looking John, that looks like a stacked design, Is it? Also that second one looks like it might be a quarter wave design?

Matt


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## Fozz (Dec 16, 2005)

Both are standard MTM and 2 way vented designs. I've bilt TL and horns but for size reasons I generally go with vented. The cabinet are pretty solid though. 1-1/2" fron and rear wall, 1-1/8" side walls and 1" top and braces. Crossovers are in seperate enclosures, all crossover parts are 1% or better matched components. Paper in oil caps, Air core Litz inductors and all the cable is CARDAS. I use SEAS tweets and a custom mid woofer. I'm lucky enough to have a speaker company here in town. They made a small batch of 7" mids for me. Only had to buy 26. LOL! But at $25 each, it was a steel. 1.5" underhung coil, cast basket, yada yada. Good solid mid.


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## atsaubrey (Jan 10, 2007)

huh?


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

Fozz said:


> Both are standard MTM and 2 way vented designs. I've bilt TL and horns but for size reasons I generally go with vented. The cabinet are pretty solid though. 1-1/2" fron and rear wall, 1-1/8" side walls and 1" top and braces. Crossovers are in seperate enclosures, all crossover parts are 1% or better matched components. Paper in oil caps, Air core Litz inductors and all the cable is CARDAS. I use SEAS tweets and a custom mid woofer. I'm lucky enough to have a speaker company here in town. They made a small batch of 7" mids for me. Only had to buy 26. LOL! But at $25 each, it was a steel. 1.5" underhung coil, cast basket, yada yada. Good solid mid.



Sweet man, those look really good.


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> They might be nice...but they are no Ring Rev.


in what regard?


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

thadman said:


> in what regard?



in just about every sense.... I have not heard a singe tweeter match a ring rev on axis in any aspect....


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

opinions...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I would really like to hear a conventional tweeter that could best the Ring Rev. Granted there are some nice tweeters out there- Esotar, Hiquphon, and Seas Millennium for example(haven heard the new big dog), but IMO none that have the attack and decay of the Ring Rev.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Fozz, you built those? Wow, I thought they were commercial offerings. Great job...wish I had the woodworking skills you and Matt have.


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

the other hated guy said:


> in just about every sense.... I have not heard a singe tweeter match a ring rev on axis in any aspect....



I agree


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> First time I've seen an Audio Tech speaker. Cool.



You have heard one before though.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> You have heard one before though.


Yes, yes, I have. I remember that. 

Just haven't ever seen one.


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> in just about every sense.... I have not heard a singe tweeter match a ring rev on axis in any aspect....


That's pretty ambiguous. I haven't been able to place my finger on anything extraordinary concerning its design, ie the strengths of a ring radiator with respect to a conventional dome alignment or ribbon. All of the data I've seen suggest that it does indeed have a very good axial response, but is severely lacking in total radiated power response and low-end distortion performance...making voicing the reverberant field very difficult. Of course I've never worked with the driver, these are just speculations. Where did you cross it, and what was its implementation?

Is it that much better of a driver as compared to the Vifa XT25? Are you a fan of ring radiators in general or is it really something spectacular?


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

thadman said:


> That's pretty ambiguous. I haven't been able to place my finger on anything extraordinary concerning its design, ie the strengths of a ring radiator with respect to a conventional dome alignment or ribbon. All of the data I've seen suggest that it does indeed have a very good axial response, but is severely lacking in total radiated power response and low-end distortion performance...making voicing the reverberant field very difficult. Of course I've never worked with the driver, these are just speculations. Where did you cross it, and what was its implementation?
> 
> Is it that much better of a driver as compared to the Vifa XT25? Are you a fan of ring radiators in general or is it really something spectacular?


see it's simple... while u gather data... I gather drivers and A/B them....and I have come ot this conclusion after many hours listening and playing with drivers....the vifa isn't even close... infact I tend to like the plain ole 2904/6000 over the xt25... the ring truly is in a class of it's own... it has the attack and decay of a horn..which no other tweeter has and has the tonality of a traditional super high end soft dome.... no accuton...focal.....morel...Dyn....seas.....hiquphon...LCY...Aurum Cantus...Raven R1....that I have ever played with on axis has come close....


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> see it's simple... while u gather data... I gather drivers and A/B them....and I have come ot this conclusion after many hours listening and playing with drivers....


Calm your balls man, I am NOT challenging your experience with this driver...don't be so hostile. I was (and am) asking you for your experience regarding this driver and if it is any better than the Vifa XT25. Several respected designers allow the Vifa XT25 to be used in place of the R2904/7000 with no modifications to the XO or sound quality perturbations (ie Troels Graevesen, Ekta Grande). Are you a fan of the ring radiator design or specifically this driver? Could you provide a little more data regarding your experience, please?


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Got my tickets to see a loud mouth get his ass handed to him by a high school student.  There, I said it....and yes I have experience with my sayings. 

EDIT, sorry Thad, I meant college. Keep up the good work bud. And good luck on your driver *PATENTS*!


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

sorry... just I put more emphasis on trail/error or first hand knowledge over graphs and charts etc... I'm more a proof is in the pudding guy... I don't look at response graphs nor do I care to... I spend a good amount of time listening... and the unfortunate thing is that the stuff I like is expensive.... .... not because expensive = better ... it's just that the drivers/tweeters I preffer or sonically better IMO... and I tend to find that when a piece of equipment is expensive more people try to find ways to justify in their minds that something else is just as good... the good for the money term gets thrown around allot... the unfortunate truth is that, that's basically all it ever will be.. "good for the money" ..

I'm sorry to say... that if a person can't hear the noticable difference in the ring/xt25 ...then a different hobby needs to be pursuid because it's that vast... and if it's a manufacture...sounds like an excuse to cut costs to maintain a higher profit.....


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

FoxPro5 said:


> Got my tickets to see a loud mouth get his ass handed to him by a high school student.  There, I said it....and yes I have experience with my sayings.
> 
> EDIT, sorry Thad, I meant college. Keep up the good work bud. And good luck on your driver *PATENTS*!


seriously..offer something more than quick jabs... please offer something more...


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

The driver does have an extraordinarily high sensitivity for a conventional alignment, so dynamics shouldn't be too much of an issue...although I do have an issue with regards to its transient response. You've compared its attack and decay to horns. Are we not talking about the same parameter?

I personally equate the transient qualities of a driver with impulse response, are we the same in that regard?

Transient response as a result of Higher Order Modes (reflections inside throat and body) is possibly the worst characteristic to describe horns. They are simply terrible in that regard. Dr. Earl R. Geddes based one of his patents on loudspeaker design on improving the transient response of horns/waveguides (as they are terrible in that regard). Here is a copy of his patent.
http://www.freshpatents.com/Waveguide-phase-plug-dt20070510ptan20070102232.php

If not transient response, what makes it sound so much like a horn?


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

dude..once again...I'm not a techie...nor do I care to be..way more smarter people than I...I comment on practicality and first hand exp... my explanations are pretty straight forward and are consistant with just about everybody who has had 1st hand exp with them...my termonology that I used is also consistant with discribing performance from an enthusiast's perspective.... and don't know how much more info you want...


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> I'm sorry to say... that if a person can't hear the noticable difference in the ring/xt25 ...then a different hobby needs to be pursuid because it's that vast... and if it's a manufacture...sounds like an excuse to cut costs to maintain a higher profit.....


Are you suggesting that your opinion exceeds Troels Gravesen in value? I'm not sure if you are familiar with his designs, if not here is a link. His designs are *VERY* well respected around the world, and yes he is a diy'er from the Denmark.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm

This is a quote from his experience


Troels Gravesen said:


> Two tweeter options will be given, no more. The 7000 and XT25TG are so alike that only minor changes to the crossover is needed and the exceptional linear response from both tweeters on this baffle allows very simple crossovers. The crossover is 4 coils, 4-5 caps and 5-6 resistors, depending on whether the 7000 or the XT25TG tweeter is used. I like the XT25TG version the best. Really can't tell you why, but difference in the coating of the two diaphragms may be the reason. The 7000 has a thinner coating, probably providing some of the extra sensitivity and probably reaching a bit higher in frequency response. I can't tell, because the CLIO only goes to 22 kHz. The XT has a slightly "darker" presentation compared to the 7000 and despite the two versions being tuned to render the same frequency response +/- 0.5 dB. The rise in impedance at Fs is much higher for the 7000, thus my guess on a thinner coating.


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> dude..once again...I'm not a techie...nor do I care to be..way more smarter people than I...I comment on practicality and first hand exp... my explanations are pretty straight forward and are consistant with just about everybody who has had 1st hand exp with them...my termonology that I used is also consistant with discribing performance from an enthusiast's perspective.... and don't know how much more info you want...


I'm just trying to understand what you are trying to convey. Comparing the sound of a Ring Radiator to a Horn is almost an oxymoron, surely you meant something else. We shouldn't be arguing over semantics.

I'm mostly interested in your experience with the Vifa XT25 as it compares to the R2904/7000. Could you describe the differences in timbre, surely there seems to be enough of a difference to warrant a personal attack against the designer.


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

thadman said:


> Are you suggesting that your opinion exceeds Troels Gravesen in value? I'm not sure if you are familiar with his designs, if not here is a link. His designs are *VERY* well respected around the world, and yes he is a diy'er from the Denmark.
> 
> http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
> 
> This is a quote from his experience


that's exactly what I'm saying.. I have heard both first hand.. the difference is big... if you prefer a colored darker sound...sure go with the xt25..great tweeter "for the money" ... but the ring offers the closest thing to truth that I have heard to date....


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

thadman said:


> I'm just trying to understand what you are trying to convey. Comparing the sound of a Ring Radiator to a Horn is almost an oxymoron, surely you meant something else. We shouldn't be arguing over semantics.


not at all...infact that everybody who has listened to them...with me...personaly has said the exact same thing...exact.... "almost horn like" in the attack and decay....and I respect these people immensely


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> not at all...infact that everybody who has listened to them...with me...personaly has said the exact same thing...exact.... "almost horn like" in the attack and decay....and I respect these people immensely


Not at all? Horns are characterized by strong low-end performance, incredible dynamics, and very poor transient response...especially the top octave (if you doubt that assertion, please go have a look at one of their impedance plots). The poor transient response is what gives horns a "honky" or "horn" sound.

Objectively, the XT25G posses an extraordinarily flat frequency response. Although we could extrapolate the driver's excellent impulse response from the FR (as it's merely another way of presenting the data), I'll provide you with a graph showing its CSD. It also has very poor lower octave performance.

CSD









Harmonic Distortion.









Horns and Ring Radiators are truly polar opposites as far as axial performance goes.

I'm really troubled that we're arguing over semantics, it's stupid. If you could be a bit more clear itd be a lot easier to understand.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I've never heard the Vifa version sound as good as the Scans either.

The honkiness found in some horns come from things other than poor transient response.


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

dude...spend less time reading plots...and spend more time listening to a wide variety of drivers... you can throw all this stuff at me and I'm going to just repeat myself a million times....jesus... even the die hard horn guys in car audio said the exact same damn thing as I have posted...


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> that's exactly what I'm saying.. I have heard both first hand.. the difference is big... if you prefer a colored *darker sound*...sure go with the xt25..great tweeter "for the money" ... but the ring offers the closest thing to truth that I have heard to date....


Hmm...that wording looks very, very familiar.



Troels Gravesen said:


> I can't tell, because the CLIO only goes to 22 kHz. The XT has a slightly "darker" presentation compared to the 7000 and despite the two versions being tuned to render the same frequency response +/- 0.5 dB.


Hmm... It looks to be exactly what I posted last page. It couldn't be that your highly impressionable could it?


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

man...I totally remember a time in car/home audio that people actually went and experienced first hand a wide variety of equipment... I remember driving states away to listen to all out assaults in home audio and driving states away to listen to cars etc.... yes the internet/forums have done allot of good things... but has ruined it in many other aspects....


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

thadman said:


> Hmm...that wording looks very, very familiar.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm... It looks to be exactly what I posted last page. It couldn't be that your highly impressionable could it?



I say buy the xt25 and rock on man.....


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> I've never heard the Vifa version sound as good as the Scans either.
> 
> The honkiness found in some horns come from things other than poor transient response.


What would you suggest? Dr. Earl R Geddes who holds a M.S. in Physics and a Ph.D. in acoustics would suggest otherwise.

Here is his resume if you'd like further evidence of his accomplishments and achievements in the loudspeaker industry.
http://www.gedlee.com/Earl_resume.htm


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> man...I totally remember a time in car/home audio that people actually went and experienced first hand a wide variety of equipment... I remember driving states away to listen to all out assaults in home audio and driving states away to listen to cars etc.... yes the internet/forums have done allot of good things... but has ruined it in many other aspects....


I'm not sure what you're referring to, are you having a flashback? If so, please continue...you've caught my attention!

Back to the days when we were highly impressionable and incredibly biased by price and bling alone...Oh wait...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I know who he is and what he has done. He posts regularly on DIYAudio. A lot of honkiness in horns comes from bad geometries and too much compression in the throat. He attempts to solve the honk from the HOMs by placing 30 ppi foam on the throats of the his Oblate Spheroid waveguides. Which that will trap the HOMs by increasing their PLD 3x of that of the direct sound.

I have played around with the said foam plugs in my horns.

But Earl also had a study that concluded it was not possible to hear the differences in compression drivers too.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> seriously..offer something more than quick jabs... please offer something more...


I could copy and paste your previous response (#36) and it would offer the same thing you are. Exactly the same reasons. 

You said: They might be nice, but are no Ring Rev. This implies that the Ring Rev is better. No??

Thadman says: In which regards? Legit question, IMO.

You say: Almost every regard they are better....including axis response....they cannot be matched. You give no objective input, just your own experience. Really nothing wrong with that, but you present your opinion as though it were fact, but it is not.

Thadman calls you on your ambiguous statement and explains why in relative terms concerning the driver's performance as he's read about it. He makes a point in describing why your opinion is flawed based on the research that he's done on the driver and even provides references.

Then you come back and explain how "simple" it is with no supporting evidence other than your experience with some other speakers. You make the claim that the Ring Rev is in a "class of it's own." But it's not, it's in a class of YOUR OWN! Again, representing your opinion as fact.

Thadman tells you to settle down (maybe a bit over dramatic), but certainly apt in light of your comments and how you present them, IMO. He also explains what he's trying to get out of his conversation with you. 

Then you come back and do a few things:
1) You claim you don't read graphs, yet you know what class the driver belongs in. How does this work?

2) You say the drivers you like are sonically better. But they are not IN FACT soncially better, the SOUND sonically better TO YOU. Again, representing your opinions as fact.

3) You go on a rant about how people buy drivers because they are "good for the money." Nothing wrong with statement until we back up to your previous assertion that your tastes are more expensive, thus justified. The error is that you say it's an "unfortunate truth" but it's not a truth at all, since you have no foundation to base it off of, only your opinion...which in this case you are claiming is some sort of universal truth. 

4) The last thing you say follows this line of logic:
Hearing *ability * is prerequisite for the hobby of car audio. If you cannot hear correctly, don't do it. But this isn't true. It's not a fact. Nor did you provide any evidence to back it up other than some random thing about manufacturing that I don't understand.

I say "your ass is about to get owned" which is my opinion how you cannot match Thadman in the objective understanding on WHY and HOW the Ring Radiator sounds the way it sounds. 

You don't read graphs yet you know the proof is in the pudding. No, sorry the PROOF lies in the mechanical and acoustical laws that dictate how the driver makes noise, not in your experience.

Then I see you just ran your mouth more and more, so what else is new....


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

thadman, you love the Vifas...great, go buy them. Have you actually had the chance to compare the Scans with the Vifas first hand?


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> dude..once again...I'm not a techie...nor do I care to be..way more smarter people than I...I comment on practicality and first hand exp... my explanations are pretty straight forward and are consistant with just about everybody who has had 1st hand exp with them...my termonology that I used is also consistant with discribing performance from an enthusiast's perspective.... and don't know how much more info you want...


No one, not one!! person is claiming you don't hear what you hear. We just cannot take what you say and apply it. If you read what Thadman says, we can. We can actually use real world measurements as a basis for selecting a driver.

If we followed your logic, we'd all end up doing exactly what you do: playing around with expensive toys (which you admitted to) and developing our hearing based on that. What you don't seem to understand it NOT EVERYONE LEARNS THAT WAY. But you claim if we don't learn that way, we should just quit?


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

FOX pro 5, what is your investment in this argument? There seems to be a pretty good exchange here and you seem to be feuling something you haven't even commented on. I don't mean any disrespect but it seems like you should get in on the discussion.

I haven't heard the vifa tweet but I have heard alot of different tweeters and the ring is truely special IMO. I haven't heard anything articulate with such precision anywhere in any setup like the ring.

Matt


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> thadman, you love the Vifas...great, go buy them. Have you actually had the chance to compare the Scans with the Vifas first hand?


No, I haven't. I am merely trying to capture your subjective impressions of both drivers. You post your experiences frequently on this forum...yet provide nothing beyond that. How is anybody expected to gain anything from your posts if you are intentionally ambiguous and provide conflicting "subjective vocabulary". Implying that a Ring Radiator sounded similar to a Horn satisfies that assertion perfectly. Also, stating that the R2904/7000 was LEAPS and BOUNDS better than XT25...despite the fact that they measure +/-.5dB of each other, are produced by the same manufacturer, and are easily swapped in XO designs leads me to believe that you are highly influenced by the cost of the associated driver and form a bias towards it. Am I not correct in saying that you pride yourself on your *expensive taste*

Also, as I mentioned earlier. I have never worked with either driver. In fact, I find the Ring Radiator (in direct radiator designs, compression drivers are a different story) a poor exercise of driver design because they exhibit such poor polar response.

Here was my first post in this thread.


Thadman said:


> Of course I've never worked with the driver, these are just speculations. Where did you cross it, and what was its implementation?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And if you did what Randy did- buy drivers and check them out first hand, it would be real easy for you to say I like this b/c it does this and this...and conversely, I don't like it b/c it did that and that. Then you should go and find information to support what you are or are not hearing. To me doing the opposite is counter intuitive...as the graphs may indicate some level of performance that isn't there.

But it often times seem as if whenever myself or Randy says we like something or don't like something, there is someone out there who tries really hard to start picking a fight. Randy may not be the most technically inclined person with regards to audio...but he does know great sound. Maybe doesn't know the hows and the whys, but he does know it when he hears it. So what? Why do you want to continually bash him b/c of it? FoxPro, your actions are juvenile...you didn't contribute to the thread, you took it more off topic and continue to do so. Why don't you espouse the audience here with your technical knowledge?


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

FoxPro5 said:


> No one, not one!! person is claiming you don't hear what you hear. We just cannot take what you say and apply it. If you read what Thadman says, we can. We can actually use real world measurements as a basis for selecting a driver.
> 
> If we followed your logic, we'd all end up doing exactly what you do: playing around with expensive toys (which you admitted to) and developing our hearing based on that. What you don't seem to understand it NOT EVERYONE LEARNS THAT WAY. But you claim if we don't learn that way, we should just quit?


if the audio world is turning into a bunch of graph reading/following sheep then lord help audio.... sure the measurments tell you the +/- of any piece of equipment... and offers objective data "fan freaking tastic" do you know "as well as many others " how this correlates to the actual sound... do you know if it sounds pleaseing or something you like via a graph... doubt that "you" can...as well I'm sure there are a few here that can.... 

holy shyt I play with expensive toys...and my hearing has been based off listening to first hand...wow....man... 

how about this boys... instead of listening or building car/home system... print out a bunch of graphs and plots and hang it in the room/car and enjoy....


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## dodgerblue (Jul 14, 2005)

the hated ,
are you having a bad day or week ?,need a vacation ? if so i can understand that ,i had that not-so-fresh-feeling over the holidays myself ,one thing to consider with todays posting wars, is the ladies have an excuse and it comes once a month - guys dont bro . just calling it as i see it and my opinion only .


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

the other hated guy said:


> how about this boys... instead of listening or building car/home system... print out a bunch of graphs and plots and hang it in the room/car and enjoy....


I've been following this thread b/c I like opinions. I'm not taking sides, but dammit, I found this hilarious!


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Matt R said:


> FOX pro 5, what is your investment in this argument? There seems to be a pretty good exchange here and you seem to be feuling something you haven't even commented on. I don't mean any disrespect but it seems like you should get in on the discussion.
> 
> I haven't heard the vifa tweet but I have heard alot of different tweeters and the ring is truely special IMO. I haven't heard anything articulate with such precision anywhere in any setup like the ring.
> 
> Matt


Sorry Matt, didn't mean to dump on your thread.  

thehatedguy can say what ever he wants to say. He's an opinionated dude and has a strong personal philosophy based on is experience. But any philosophy worth living is also worth questioning. Thadman was questioning him (in a perfectly legit way as I see it). His reply is defensive and amounts to nothing more than proselytization. 

So we have religion vs science, once again. Sometimes someone needs to point out how the preacher's sermon is old, outdated and tiresome on this forum. That's what I did. That is all. Good bye.


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

A person who subjectively compares products without understanding what may have created audible differences is every bit as bad as the person who objectively judges drivers without having listened to them.

On topic now...

I have had the opportunity to listen to the 2904/7000 and the XT25. I feel the 2904/7000 is better than the XT25 but by a small margin....I guess that means I need to change hobbies?

And I love the Revelator 10's. Very good product. I picked up a pair about a week ago and will be building a tower with them as the bottom end. Unfortunately, I don't feel a pair of the 10's has what I would consider to be reference level output on the bottom end but they are extremely pleasing to the ear and the wide bandwidth is very appreciated. I intend to take up a project very similar to yours.


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

the other hated guy said:


> how about this boys... instead of listening or building car/home system... print out a bunch of graphs and plots and hang it in the room/car and enjoy....


There is nothing wrong with the pursuit of a better understanding of what we hear and that is all this is.


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> if the audio world is turning into a bunch of graph reading/following sheep then lord help audio.... sure the measurments tell you the +/- of any piece of equipment... and offers objective data "fan freaking tastic" do you know "as well as many others " how this correlates to the actual sound... do you know if it sounds pleaseing or something you like via a graph... doubt that "you" can...as well I'm sure there are a few here that can....
> 
> holy shyt I play with expensive toys...and my hearing has been based off listening to first hand...wow....man...
> 
> how about this boys... instead of listening or building car/home system... print out a bunch of graphs and plots and hang it in the room/car and enjoy....


No one is disagreeing with your preference of the drivers or your experiences. Neither is anyone asserting that the XT25 is better than the R2904/7000 or even that it is its equivalent, but rather I am calling into question the HUGE CHASM in performance you've asserted. Surely enough difference in performance to warrant personal attacks on loudspeaker designers or call into question their integrity. People are easily impressionable, especially in groups.

From several people's perspectives it seems as if you're forming your opinions before auditioning the drivers. I'd certainly expect my drivers to sound phenomenal if I spent $400 a piece on them...probably MUCH MUCH MUCH better than the $25 drivers that measure close to 99%...which is equivalent to quality control differences between drivers of Scanspeak's quality. Even if I auditioned them side to side, it's easy to see why a preference for the expensive driver may form...unless the test was A/B blind. The HUGENORMOUS difference in performance between the drivers you've asserted calls into question your impressionability. 

This would be all fine and dandy, IF you didn't tout your experiences as irrefutable, 100%...if you disagree with thehatedguy...then your ears must be wrong.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't know why the Scan version is so much nicer than the Vifa version, that I would have to do some research on...and right now at this current juncture- test this week and preparing for the GRE, I may need some time do conduct that research. Cool?

I don't think he was implying the Ring Revs sound like horns...they don't, again as you know I'm a big horn fan and have owned the Ring Revs. What struck me about the Ring Revs was it's attack and impact. The visceral impact of the Rings in Randy's old car reminded me of how my horns physically convey the music. That is what he was getting at, b/c it was probably me who he was refering to in that statement. They are no horns nor are they compression drivers (CDs are much lower distortion devices as you already know since you keep up with Dr. Geddes).

Now, the Rng Revs in a car can be problematic b/c of theirreally tight dispersion pattern. While they are one of my favorite (I'll use conventional here to distinguish from compression devices) conventional tweeters...they would not be my first choice for use in a car b/c of the bad off axis response. I would want a driver that was better in that regard in the car.

I don't know if I have expensive tastes, or if I like things b/c they are expensive. Maybe some of both depending on who you talk to. But one of my favorite tweeters is the Hiquphon OW series. They surely aren't that expensive for what you get- what, 1dB matched hand built tweeters for $100 each (I haven't checked prices in a while). Those tweeters in a car, on paper would be better performers than the Scans (or Vifas for that matter) b/c of the increased off axis response. But IMO they are missing that last bit of something to take them past the Ring Revs and Focal BEs...might be the lack in efficiency. I dunno.

It was been an interest of mine to correlate objective data with subjective impressions. Just a hard thing to do.



thadman said:


> No, I haven't. I am merely trying to capture your subjective impressions of both drivers. You post your experiences frequently on this forum...yet provide nothing beyond that. How is anybody expected to gain anything from your posts if you are intentionally ambiguous and provide conflicting "subjective vocabulary". Implying that a Ring Radiator sounded similar to a Horn satisfies that assertion perfectly. Also, stating that the R2904/7000 was LEAPS and BOUNDS better than XT25...despite the fact that they measure +/-.5dB of each other, are produced by the same manufacturer, and are easily swapped in XO designs leads me to believe that you are highly influenced by the cost of the associated driver and form a bias towards it. Am I not correct in saying that you pride yourself on your *expensive taste*
> 
> Also, as I mentioned earlier. I have never worked with either driver. In fact, I find the Ring Radiator (in direct radiator designs, compression drivers are a different story) a poor exercise of driver design because they exhibit such poor polar response.
> 
> Here was my first post in this thread.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You guys have to remember that there are 2 of us...and 2 completely different people...and we don't always agree on everything ourself, but I respect where Randy is coming from.



thadman said:


> This would be all fine and dandy, IF you didn't tout your experiences as irrefutable, 100%...if you disagree with thehatedguy...then your ears must be wrong.


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

I think I'm on to something...I'm going to start a religion...because it's now a 100% official that I can't have an opinion.....and for what ever reason..it's treated as an attack against humanity

and that it's totally ok when people say they like "x" driver etc and have to back it up with "0" documention because it follows with the "flow" of all the other sheep...

priceless....

I quit listening with my eyes/wallet many...many years ago.....I think that any experienced audiophile can... anybody who questions my ability to do so can truly f-off......


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> if the audio world is turning into a bunch of graph reading/following sheep then lord help audio.... sure the measurments tell you the +/- of any piece of equipment... and offers objective data "fan freaking tastic" do you know "as well as many others " how this correlates to the actual sound... do you know if it sounds pleaseing or something you like via a graph... doubt that "you" can...as well I'm sure there are a few here that can....
> 
> how about this boys... instead of listening or building car/home system... print out a bunch of graphs and plots and hang it in the room/car and enjoy....


Umm, how do you think actual engineering works? 

Do you think its the norm for people to bet on the team picked by "Princess the Camel" to win the superbowl. Do you think there's no science or objectivity involved in the design process?

Also, I never asserted that I could tell if a driver would sound pleasing from a graph. I asserted that something else must be going on, if a driver that you've found impeccable measures within quality control production levels (ie +/-.5dB, 99%), is produced by the same manufacturer, and was said to be swappable in a completed crossover of a driver that sounds horrible in comparison.


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## Arc (Aug 25, 2006)

Now that we are going in circles argueing can we get back to the design intended for the Scan 10's?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I would be curious as to what Tympany says about the differences in performance of the 2 drivers in regards to price.

And please god, no one come away with Winslow said the Vifa version sucked from this whole mess.


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> I would be curious as to what Tympany says about the differences in performance of the 2 drivers in regards to price.
> 
> And please god, no one come away with Winslow said the Vifa version sucked from this whole mess.


No one has said that, in fact probably the opposite. The thing I found especially interesting was the fact that the $400 tweeter measured almost immeasurably close to the $25 tweeter (in fact it could be swapped into the crossover of a well respected design without any perturbations), yet it supposedly sounded significantly worse. I was bringing to the light the fact that perhaps a bias was indeed the culprit for the perceived difference in performance and that quite possibly the Vifa XT25 is one of the highest performing Ring Radiator transducers on the market today at a very low price.


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> I think I'm on to something...I'm going to start a religion...because it's now a 100% official that I can't have an opinion.....and for what ever reason..it's treated as an attack against humanity


You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as you don't impinge it upon us (the forum) as 100% irrefutable and dismiss our hearing capabilities as lacking if we (the forum) disagree with you on something.


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I would be curious as to what Tympany says about the differences in performance of the 2 drivers in regards to price.
> 
> And please god, no one come away with Winslow said the Vifa version sucked from this whole mess.


and never... in any of the posts did I....but i bet somebody will get that out of this.....

ok.... taken from np's review thread of the xt25...the last sentence is a very good part of my arguement.....also keeping in mind there are a 1000 ways to skin a cat... our wording may not be the exact same...but it's in the same direction

Listening to this tweeter unfiltered (that's right no crossover!), was quite a treat. For such a tiny tweeter, it was amazingly full bodied. The new rear chamber and motor design must be doing something, because I couldn't detect any offensive resonance or muddiness in the lower frequencies of this driver. It sounded very natural, open, and detailed. The top end struck an excellent balance between detail, sparkle, and air while not being too "hot" or "spitty" sounding. Vocals were natural and open sounding without being too forward, laid-back, or velvetty. I like this tweeter alot! Although I will say it did not have the sheer power, and unrestricted dynamics that you would find in the other top dog offerings such as the Seas Millenium, Dynaudio Esotar, or Scan-speak 9700 revelator.


my advice thadman.... get your as$ on that thread and ask np the exact same thing you asked me...


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

thadman said:


> You're allowed to have an opinion, as long as you don't impinge it upon us (the forum) as 100% irrefutable and dismiss our hearing capabilities as lacking if we (the forum) disagree with you on something.



my arguements in this and ALL forums is, "comment on what you have exp with"..end of story...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Like i said, I haven't priced a lot of drivers in a while...I was thinking the Vifa was more than $25 (k, so Madisound has them for $50 each, I was thinking they were closer to $75 each).

I don't think the tests are completely showing you the whole story. But that's just off the cuff type of feeling.



thadman said:


> No one has said that, in fact probably the opposite. The thing I found especially interesting was the fact that the $400 tweeter measured almost immeasurably close to the $25 tweeter (in fact it could be swapped into the crossover of a well respected design without any perturbations), yet it supposedly sounded significantly worse. I was bringing to the light the fact that perhaps a bias was indeed the culprit for the perceived difference in performance and that quite possibly the Vifa XT25 is one of the highest performing Ring Radiator transducers on the market today at a very low price.


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Like i said, I haven't priced a lot of drivers in a while...I was thinking the Vifa was more than $25 (k, so Madisound has them for $50 each, I was thinking they were closer to $75 each).
> 
> I don't think the tests are completely showing you the whole story. But that's just off the cuff type of feeling.


Madisound had them on sale for a VERY long time at roughly $25/each, either way price isn't really a large factor. They're going to be significantly cheaper than the R2904/7000 almost anyway you cut it.

The whole story? What would you like to suggest? It seems pretty clear to me. The R2904/7000 is minutely different than the XT25, so a difference of opinion or preference is perfectly acceptable. In fact several loudspeaker designers have expressed a slight preference, despite the fact that these drivers are swappable in the crossover. They are not exactly the same.

You, however, have asserted that there is a huge difference in performance between these two drivers. This statement does not fit the trend (objective data says they measure very close, subjective impressions from respected loudspeaker designers say they sound almost identical). Something therefore must be awry. A bias towards the significantly more expensive driver seems most likely, especially since you have expressed your affinity towards expensive drivers.

I have no problem with your bias or preference. Whatever floats your boat man, if you feel the R2904/7000 is worth MSRP then more power to you. Some people place significant value in their alloted time (over 200+ hours may go into cabinet construction alone for example), so in that scenario paying for the "best" makes perfect sense.

Asserting your opinion as 100% irrefutable objective fact, as it seems you do on many occasion IS unacceptable. You frequently state (however impertinent the situation, I can't count the number of times you did in the "best sq sub" thread) that you have "X" years of experience in "X" field, you held "X" position, you've used "X" number of drivers so therefore your opinion should be valued higher and that you deserve more respect over other members...that all doesn't matter. You've demonstrated without a doubt that you have a preference towards the significantly more expensive driver, despite the fact that both the accepted available objective data (drivers measure same) and respected subjective opinion of several loudspeaker designers (drivers sound the same) disagree with you. You've demonstrated that even with your educated/respected knowledge/experience you still succumb to the same trick that businesses prey upon us with and "noobs" fall for (Product B costs significantly more than Product A, so therefore Product B must've gone through significantly more R&D than Product A, Product B must use much more expensive/advanced materials than Product A, and/or Product B much perform significantly better than Product A). Your opinion is no better than anyone elses, you may be elite in your own eyes...but you hold no clout with us.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Damn dude, why the bunch of **** at the end? You go along and make some good points and then, wham, nice swipe/sideassed comment like that. What gives?

All I said was off of the cuff that I didn't think the testing you have shows the entire story.

I never claimed any elitist attitude, but guys like you who like to put words in my mouth, don't know me, know anything about me, and presume you do from reading a couple posts on the internet are the ones coming off as the elitist pompous assholes. Did I make a personal attack at you, try to discredit you or attack you as a person in any way? No. But people like you are free to open fire on me and when I say something back, I'm the *******.

Then here you come again and try to make some correlation between my liking the Scan better and some sort of fantasy you have about me only liking expensive items. Again,what gives? Especially when I have repeatedly stated that the Hiquphons are some of my favorite conventional tweeters made. Surely to god they aren't the most expensive tweeter on the market...yet they are some of my favorites- right up there with the Ring Revs, Focal Bes, and Esotars. Heaven forbid someone actually gets to really listen to things rather than reading about them on the internet.

Then your next paragraph is putting words in my mouth again. Show me where I said anything about the tweeters being worth MSRP? I don't have a clue as to how deep in your ass you had to dig to get that one. And the cabinet construction thing...sorry, don't recall saying anything about that either. But hey, talk to Alon Wolf and ask why he did both in the Magico Mini v1- Scan Ring Rev and extensive bracing and wood working.

Then you could ask npdang why he said what he did about the Vifa vs the Scan...which supports what Randy, Matt, and I have also said- it's a good tweeter, but not in the same league as the Scan Ring Rev.

Actually I can state how many times I said that in that particular thread- once. I stated it once, Chad said that amount of time wasn't much in other fields, and I went on to further clarify my background/time in service. 

Why don't you take this issue up with the company who makes the driver and the companies who use the Scan tweeter rather than the Vifa ones? I'm sure if some of these companies could increase their profit margin from not using a $400 retail tweeter to use a $50 retail tweeter.

Futhermore, who would you rather get experience on how something SOUNDS (not looks like on paper)- a person who has heard it first hand or someone who is speculating based on a couple internet threads? You yourself haven't heard either driver, so how are you so adamant that the sonic differences aren't as large as some tests show?

I'm not an elitest, but people like you who have some sort of inferiority complex would like to paint me that way.

And likewise...you have no clout with me. People like you who have never used half the things they talk about, and then make gross vast sweeping generalizations about other people's opinions are the ones with the problems and complexes.


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> I never claimed any elitist attitude, but guys like you who like to put words in my mouth, don't know me, know anything about me, and presume you do from reading a couple posts on the internet are the ones coming off as the elitist pompous assholes.


It would be silly to suggest that I know you on a personal level, the only source I have to draw from is your posts on this forum, which (unassuming to you) would indicate otherwise to many members of this board.



thehatedguy said:


> Then here you come again and try to make some correlation between my liking the Scan better and some sort of fantasy you have about me only liking expensive items. Again,what gives? Especially when I have repeatedly stated that the Hiquphons are some of my favorite conventional tweeters made. Surely to god they aren't the most expensive tweeter on the market...yet they are some of my favorites- right up there with the Ring Revs, Focal Bes, and Esotars. Heaven forbid someone actually gets to really listen to things rather than reading about them on the internet.


I'm not disputing your preference for the Hiqs. In fact, I never suggested you'd choose the most expensive choice in a variety of different alignments, only that if most variables are accounted for (same type of driver, same manufacturer, same impulse response/frequency...+/-.5dB, etc) except price, you'd probably be inclined towards the more expensive driver.



thehatedguy said:


> Then your next paragraph is putting words in my mouth again. Show me where I said anything about the tweeters being worth MSRP? I don't have a clue as to how deep in your ass you had to dig to get that one. And the cabinet construction thing...sorry, don't recall saying anything about that either. But hey, talk to Alon Wolf and ask why he did both in the Magico Mini v1- Scan Ring Rev and extensive bracing and wood working.


The statement wasn't directed towards you. I was merely giving an example of why someone may be able to justify the cost of the driver, not specifically you. Taken in context, the cabinet construction comment would seem to suggest that I was referring to home audio diy'ers, not car audio diy'ers. If that wasn't obvious, I apologize.



thehatedguy said:


> Then you could ask npdang why he said what he did about the Vifa vs the Scan...which supports what Randy, Matt, and I have also said- it's a good tweeter, but not in the same league as the Scan Ring Rev.


I've already seen objective data regarding both drivers, how do you think I referenced its linear and harmonic distortion performance earlier in this thread? I know there are minute differences between the drivers, the issue I had was the assertion that there was a huge performance edge with the R2904/7000.



thehatedguy said:


> Actually I can state how many times I said that in that particular thread- once. I stated it once, Chad said that amount of time wasn't much in other fields, and I went on to further clarify my background/time in service.


You demanded members to provide their credentials several times, dismissing their opinions as disposable unless they possessed the same experience as you.



thehatedguy said:


> Why don't you take this issue up with the company who makes the driver and the companies who use the Scan tweeter rather than the Vifa ones? I'm sure if some of these companies could increase their profit margin from not using a $400 retail tweeter to use a $50 retail tweeter.


Great minds think alike I believe the Sonus Faber Stradivari uses the Vifa XT25 instead of the R2904/7000, in spite of using the incredibly expensive Audio Technology midranges. The cost of the loudspeaker ($40,000 msrp) would lead me to believe the production team were more interested in the performance of the Vifa XT25, rather than its associated cost. Maybe they achieved the same impression as Troels Gravesen? Maybe it might actually perform better than the R2904/7000? Who knows...their opinion is probably trash because they haven't had *gasp*5*gasp* years of experience in the car audio field.



The Other Hated Guy said:


> I'm sorry to say... that if a person can't hear the noticable difference in the ring/xt25 ...then a different hobby needs to be pursuid because it's that vast... and if it's a manufacture...sounds like an excuse to cut costs to maintain a higher profit.....


Gosh...maybe Sonus Faber or Troels should get another hobby too?



thehatedguy said:


> Futhermore, who would you rather get experience on how something SOUNDS (not looks like on paper)- a person who has heard it first hand or someone who is speculating based on a couple internet threads? You yourself haven't heard either driver, so how are you so adamant that the sonic differences aren't as large as some tests show?


I'd probably want the opinion of somebody who sounded like they knew what they were talking about. Despite the fact that you guys have suggested that you have years of experience in the audio field, You described the sound of a direct radiator on axis to a horn on multiple occasions...and were very adamant about that assertion. 



the other hated guy said:


> see it's simple... while u gather data... I gather drivers and A/B them....and I have come ot this conclusion after many hours listening and playing with drivers....the vifa isn't even close... infact I tend to like the plain ole 2904/6000 over the xt25... the ring truly is in a class of it's own... *it has the attack and decay of a horn*..which no other tweeter has and has the tonality of a traditional super high end soft dome.... no accuton...focal.....morel...Dyn....seas.....hiquphon...LCY...Aurum Cantus...Raven R1....that I have ever played with on axis has come close....





the other hated guy said:


> not at all...infact that everybody who has listened to them...with me...personaly has said the exact same thing...exact.... *"almost horn like" in the attack and decay*....and I respect these people immensely


This leads me to question if you (and your crew) actually do know what you're talking about. For having SO much experience with horns and conventional tweeters, that assertion seems pretty sophomoric. Direct Radiators and Horns have completely different characteristics (objective and subjective) especially in regards to impulse response (attack and decay), which I'm sure you're aware of. For example, the Ring Radiator has extraordinary impulse and top octave performance (>5khz) but severely deficient in terms of displacement (translates to compressed dynamics, limited output, and very poor non-linear distortion performance in the lower octave). Horns on the other hand have extraordinary output capabilities, handle low crossover points effortlessly and have excellent distortion performance (in the lower octaves, <3-5khz), but have VERY poor impulse response (just take a look at an un-EQ'd horn or an impedance plot) and top octave performance. For you to suggest that these alignments possess the same characteristics...when in fact they lie on opposite extremes of the continuum...seems a little suspicious. Do you sincerely believe these two alignments possess the same impulse response characteristics or rather do you just use a bunch of fancy words and string in a bunch of unrelated connotations and hope no one notices that you're BS'ing your way through your subjective evaluation?


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

wow...ok...then my suggestion thadman... everything thing in your life...everything food...clothes...car.....school...women...etc... you need to choose strictly from objective data.... no experience please.... you do that...I'll listen to your BS.... 

I have 0 respect for anybody who comments from what they read rather than from what they have experienced... there have been a few internet clowns like yourself that feel just because you can read and comprehend makes them an expert...and then start throwing around big words etc... you are not the first nor will u be the last... INOVATION COMES FROM EXPERIMENTATION...

my question is who is the bias'd one?

A: the guys like jason,matt or myself who are bias to what we feel are the best sounding pieces from "Experience" 

B: those who constantly support their "good for the money" or "Almost" as good performance that ultimately costs less.... and will fight tooth and nail to support their claims? with never trying what they comment on....


if you think I'm going to back down or change my stance you are sadly mistaken.... I'm a fairly intelligent guy...believe me... I welcome less expensive...money does not grow on trees nor will it ever.... but you comment on my listening skills again...then I will start getting real personal......


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Thadman, why pick and choose your arguments to suit what you need to say? Randy and both brought up the fact that npdang's observations of the Vifa was in line with ours. Why do you skip over that both times it was mentioned?

You keep going back to the horn comment to try to prove something, but you are constantly attacking Randy when I have already cleared up those comments in a previous post.

I'm sorry, but I really don't know who this Troels person is that you keep referencing. But you do place his opinion on higher ground than npdang, though both have tested the drivers? The common thread here is this- I have heard the drivers, Randy has, the guy you referenced has, npdang has, Matt has...but you have not. You have quite a few people with direct personal experience with the drivers in question, and do not have any...and you want me to believe that you know something that I do not in terms of how they sound. Why? What is your crediblity? You found one person to support your claims and yet you have no knowledge of why the person who you reference has that peference.

Why are you going out of your way to pick a fight and to post dump? Let people have their own preferences. You have yours and no one is attacking what you like, yet you strive to challenge us on why we liked one driver so much better than another.

And futhermore, have you looked at the response graphs on the Tymphany site? Those graphs did not look the same to me. Are you suggesting that the company who makes both drivers can not acurately measure their own product? Again, maybe you should take you plight to Tyamphany.


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Thadman, why pick and choose your arguments to suit what you need to say? Randy and both brought up the fact that npdang's observations of the Vifa was in line with ours. Why do you skip over that both times it was mentioned?


#1 I don't believe npdang ever reviewed the Vifa XT*25*. I did some searches and couldn't find anything in reference to it.

#2 No one is doubting that the Vifa is an excellent tweeter (I'm not sure why you keep referencing this case, a major argument continues to be for its stellar performance)



thehatedguy said:


> You keep going back to the horn comment to try to prove something, but you are constantly attacking Randy when I have already cleared up those comments in a previous post.


The point is he doesn't know what he's talking about when he's describing something subjectively or doesn't know what he's hearing. He specifically cited its attack and decay and was very adamant about that assertion. This isn't very impressive for someone with such experience (**5 years**) in the car audio circuit and who prides themselves on their hearing capabilities.



thehatedguy said:


> I'm sorry, but I really don't know who this Troels person is that you keep referencing. But you do place his opinion on higher ground than npdang, though both have tested the drivers?


#1 I gave you a link to his webpage. He is very popular over on diyaudio.com and htguide.com/forum. The sheer number of designs he has available is impressive.

#2 npdang does NOT have a review of the Vifa XT25, nor a review of the R2904 posted. You cannot claim that anyone who wrote a positive review for the Vifa XT25 agrees with you, the issue is how much worse/better it is as compared to the R2904/7000 not outright performance. 



thehatedguy said:


> You found one person to support your claims and yet you have no knowledge of why the person who you reference has that peference.


Wrong



Troels Gravesen said:


> The 7000 and XT25TG are so alike that only minor changes to the crossover is needed and the exceptional linear response from both tweeters on this baffle allows very simple crossovers. The crossover is 4 coils, 4-5 caps and 5-6 resistors, depending on whether the 7000 or the XT25TG tweeter is used. *I like the XT25TG version the best. Really can't tell you why, but difference in the coating of the two diaphragms may be the reason. The 7000 has a thinner coating, probably providing some of the extra sensitivity and probably reaching a bit higher in frequency response*. I can't tell, because the CLIO only goes to 22 kHz. The XT has a slightly "darker" presentation compared to the 7000 and despite the two versions being tuned to render the same frequency response +/- 0.5 dB. *The rise in impedance at Fs is much higher for the 7000, thus my guess on a thinner coating*.


Sonus Faber (I'm not sure if you're familiar) uses the Vifa XT25 drivers in their $40,000 Stradivari loudspeaker. Audio Physics also uses the XT25 in their Avanti III loudspeaker. I believe Krell also uses the same driver in their loudspeaker offerings.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Point is you are continuing to dump the post and show disrespect to Matt by contining this quest of yours. Your maturity by doing so is hitting a new low.

npdang reviewed the Xt19 and said "I like this tweeter alot! Although I will say it did not have the sheer power, and unrestricted dynamics that you would find in the other top dog offerings such as the Seas Millenium, Dynaudio Esotar, or Scan-speak 9700 revelator."

So it's not the Xt25, but a cousin.

You have the wrong guy with the 5 year comment. 

So Sonus Faber uses the Vifa...ask Alon Wolf why he liked the Ring Rev.

And your guy you like, he admits to liking the Vifa better, but even he doesn't have a reason why. He says that directly in your quotes. He has a personal preference but with no objective data to support it...and you want to ram this guy's subjective preference down our throats? And you've never had any first hand experience with either? But 3 of us here have had direct experience with the mentioned drivers. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 

Point is you are looking like an ass.

Like I said, take your crusade up with Tymphany.

This is Matt's thread about his speakers and what he likes. No one here on this thread needs to answer to you for or about anything.



thadman said:


> #1 I don't believe npdang ever reviewed the Vifa XT*25*. I did some searches and couldn't find anything in reference to it.
> 
> #2 No one is doubting that the Vifa is an excellent tweeter (I'm not sure why you keep referencing this case, a major argument continues to be for its stellar performance)
> 
> ...


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

You all need to stay away from the Ad Hominem arguments, otherwise both sides do have good points that can be taken out of this discussion.


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> npdang reviewed the Xt19 and said "I like this tweeter alot! Although I will say it did not have the sheer power, and unrestricted dynamics that you would find in the other top dog offerings such as the Seas Millenium, Dynaudio Esotar, or Scan-speak 9700 revelator."
> 
> So it's not the Xt25, but a cousin.


You can't be serious. According to your logic, The Peerless Exclusive 5.5" 831882 (which was given a very favorable review and is also produced by Tymphany) possesses good midrange performance therefore the Peerless Exclusive 7" 831883 (which suffers from a severe impedance glitch around 1khz) must also possess excellent midrange performance. They share the same relationship as the XT25 and XT19 (same format, same type of motor, same product line, same company, etc) yet have very different performance characteristics in their associated bandwidth.



thehatedguy said:


> And your guy you like, he admits to liking the Vifa better, but even he doesn't have a reason why. He says that directly in your quotes. He has a personal preference but with no objective data to support it...and you want to ram this guy's subjective preference down our throats? And you've never had any first hand experience with either? But 3 of us here have had direct experience with the mentioned drivers. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.


Wrong again

Subjective Impression 


Troels Gravesen said:


> I like the XT25TG version the best. Really can't tell you why,


Hypothesis as to why the driver sounds favorable


Troels Gravesen said:


> , but difference in the coating of the two diaphragms may be the reason. The 7000 has a thinner coating, probably providing some of the extra sensitivity and probably reaching a bit higher in frequency response


Corroborating Evidence


Troels Gravesen said:


> The rise in impedance at Fs is much higher for the 7000, thus my guess on a thinner coating.


His subjective impressions are corroborated by objective data.

Anyways, sorry for stealing your thread.


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## Fran82 (Jul 30, 2007)

Those 10s look nice Matt. Beautiful work on the cabinets. I think that was this thread, right? There was a bunch of other crap on here that took up about 7 pages. If I'm in the wrong thread, I apologize.


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

Yeah, right. I'm in the middle of finishing some other cabinets so it'll be a few weeks before I get to the 10's. 

Hey thadman, I like the ring revelators but I'm not going to argue with anyone about it. I would say put the tweets of your choice in your car, come out to a competition and blow everyone away. I'm sure Jason and Randy would be happy to tell you what class they are in so you can compete against them. I prefer to do alot less talking and alot more doing. Why don't you join me in that and come on out and show everyone how good you and your chosen products are.

Matt


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Problem is Matt that he has never heard either speaker...and hasn't heard most of the things he comments on. I don't think he would fair too well...plus he is probably the type of guy who would cop out and say something like "I don't need a judge to tell me my car sounds good" or "there is no value in competitions."


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Problem is Matt that he has never heard either speaker...and hasn't heard most of the things he comments on. I don't think he would fair too well...plus he is probably the type of guy who would cop out and say something like "I don't need a judge to tell me my car sounds good" or "there is no value in competitions."


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## SQrules (May 25, 2007)

Matt R said:


> Two for the left channel and two for the right channel to go allong with these speakers. The cabinet will be about 24" tall and the two way cabinet will sit on top of it to form floor standing towers.


Next time I see you Matt, I am going to give you a hand full of wire nuts so you can build more x-overs


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## Arc (Aug 25, 2006)

How are these going Matt? How about the design you are building for Randy?


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