# What gauge speaker wire for my speakers.



## Shwedly

If I am feeding 230 watts to each of my front components, what gauge speaker wire should I be using to achieve the best sound quality. 

Also, I will be feeding 600 watts to my sub, so what do you guys think will be the appropriate gauge speaker wire for that.

What do you guys think of the monster cable THX ultra 600 14 gauge speaker wire for the front components and Monster cable monsterbass xln 100 12 gauge speaker wire for the sub?


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## Austin

Those gauges will be fine. But i would look into something different than the monster cable...It is a waste of money IMO. Go to monoprice.com and get some wire from there. Wire is Wire and copper is copper. Try not to buy into the looks of the cable, you wont see it anyways.

I got very nice 14 gauge wire for my components from wal mart. ~$9.00 for 50 feet. two rolls of that and you are golden.


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## Austin

For only $16.38 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 14AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire Cable - 100ft | 14AWG Loud Speaker Cable

For only $9.73 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 12AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire Cable - 50ft | 12AWG Loud Speaker Cable

Bam Bam.


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## Shwedly

Awesome, great link. since the quality of the speaker wire can make or break a system I am a little hesitant about those monoprice wires. Dont get me wrong, they are very affordable and have gotten really good reviews. I just have had to many bad experiences in my life where I have tried to save money and only ended up with a crappy product. 

Anyone want to chime in about this monoprice speaker wires?


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## schmiddr2

Without even looking at it I would assume if he's used it and says it's like all the other stuff, I would agree. Just like this stuff Parts Express: Featured Categories


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## rommelrommel

Shwedly said:


> Awesome, great link. since the quality of the speaker wire can make or break a system I am a little hesitant about those monoprice wires. Dont get me wrong, they are very affordable and have gotten really good reviews. I just have had to many bad experiences in my life where I have tried to save money and only ended up with a crappy product.
> 
> Anyone want to chime in about this monoprice speaker wires?


Copper is copper. If you think otherwise I have some wonderful cables to sell you for $10000 a foot.


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## sqshoestring

Electricity is governed by physics, but marketing people can lie just as often as politicians do. Ok well maybe not _that _much, but you get the idea. 

Also note that, partially excepting the low sub bass, sound is AC power which requires far less wire than DC power does.


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## Shwedly

What you guys think of this cable. I know it sounds like I am being a hard head, but eventhough these are like 0.69 cents per foot as compared to the monoprice 12 gauge speaker wire at 0.20 cents per foot. The knukonceptz have 294 strands of copper where as the mono price cable has only ~87 strands of copper. How does one justify the monoprice cable as being 12 gauge considering that big of difference in strand count. Also more strands means better flow of current and eventually better sound so where does one draw the line of how many strands it takes till you dont notice a difference in sound quality anymore.

http://www.knukonceptz.com/productDetail.cfm?prodID=KAR12SS


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## DanMan

Anything more than 293 strands is too many. Less than 88 strands is perfect.

IMHO.


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## gijoe

Shwedly said:


> Also more strands means better flow of current and eventually better sound so where does one draw the line of how many strands it takes till you dont notice a difference in sound quality anymore.
> 
> Knukonceptz product detail for KARMA SS 12 GAUGE SPEAKER WIRE


Better flow does not mean better sound quality. A wire can do 1 of 2 things. It can maintain the signal quality, or it can degrade the signal quality. In terms of speaker wire, you'll need to be running some really tiny gauge wire to cause a problem. The strand count only determines the flexibility, not the amount of current it can pass. A solid copper pipe will allow a ton of current to flow, but it's not going to be very flexible. 

Go to Walmart of Radioshack or Sears and by a spool of regular speaker wire. There won't be anything is a standard wire that you can pick up cheap, locally, that will degrade the signal quality as long as you size it accordingly.


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## OBXTINTWORX

To everyone who wants "HIGH END" speaker cable.
Go buy 6' 14awg @ $10- $20 a foot.
go buy 6' 14awg @ $.50 a foot.

Go home.
Have "someone else" hook up your home stereos speakers
with your new wires. Cheap on one side, Expensive on left
or vice versa. As long as you don't know.
See if you can tell a difference.

If you can, you won't feel like you wasted money.
If you can't you will have done this test honestly and saved the money.

This test can also be applied to "signal cable"
and any other piece of gear your interested in.


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## Shwedly

Well the flexibility part makes sense. So does the part about quality of copper affecting current flow not how much of it. That doesnt explain though why they would call their monoprice wire 12 gauge even though its no where as thick as the knuk wire which is also 12 gauge. Either knuk is using really cheap copper so they make it thicker or monoprice copper really good quality hence they do not need to make their wires as thick. Is that what it boils down too?


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## gijoe

OBXTINTWORX said:


> To everyone who wants "HIGH END" speaker cable.
> Go buy 6' 14awg @ $10- $20 a foot.
> go buy 6' 14awg @ $.50 a foot.
> 
> Go home.
> Have "someone else" hook up your home stereos speakers
> with your new wires. Cheap on one side, Expensive on left
> or vice versa. As long as you don't know.
> See if you can tell a difference.
> 
> If you can, you won't feel like you wasted money.
> If you can't you will have done this test honestly and saved the money.
> 
> This test can also be applied to "signal cable"
> and any other piece of gear your interested in.


This is close, but still not perfect. The fact that you know there are 2 different cables being used will make you THINK you hear a difference between 1 and 2, then it'll just be a guess between which one is "better." Take a system with expensive wire, swap the wire out with cheap wire without the owner knowing and I promise he won't hear a difference. He won't get in and say "damn my stereo sounds ****ty for some reason." Now tell him you're switching his wires and I'll be he'll get in and say "damn this wire sounds like ****, switch it back."


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## gijoe

Shwedly said:


> Well the flexibility part makes sense. So does the part about quality of copper affecting current flow not how much of it. That doesnt explain though why they would call their monoprice wire 12 gauge even though its no where as thick as the knuk wire which is also 12 gauge. Either knuk is using really cheap copper so they make it thicker or monoprice copper really good quality hence they do not need to make their wires as thick. Is that what it boils down too?


The difference in size is probably due to thicker "shielding."


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## Shwedly

If you are talking about the knuk wire then it cant be because of sheilding since earlier I mentioned the strand count in the knuk wire is 3 times greater than the monoprice wire. 

If you are talking about the monoprice wire being thicker b/c of shielding than that would mean monoprice is lying about their gauge sizes b/c of what the following website states:
What is American Wire Gage (AWG), and Why Does it Matter?

Incidentally, it's important to remember that it is the size of the WIRE, not the size of the wire with its insulation, that is measured in AWG. On occasion, we get a call from a customer who is convinced that our 12 AWG speaker cable cannot be 12 AWG, because it looks smaller than another 12 AWG cable he owns. Many speaker cables are jacketed in a very thick translucent PVC jacket, which not only makes the overall profile bulky, but also makes for something of a magnifying-glass effect, making the wire look a bit bigger than it really is.

Also as I noticed they do not tin coat there wires like knuk does.


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## POLKAT

Copper wire is copper wire. You are not going to hear any difference. There are many more important aspects of an audio system to stress over: Speaker selection, placement, and aiming, sound deadening, x-over points and slope, instillation of the equipment in general...all of these (and more) will have a much more profound affect on the sound you hear than wire. 

Some people even tap into the stock wiring in their cars for ease of instillation. I did so in my Trailblazer for my Peerless Exclusives in my front doors and I am very happy with them. Also, I have used Monoprice wire and it is plenty thick. I have their 16 gauge wire running all through my Dodge Neon and I would gladly use it again. 

Please give this a read: Speaker Wire


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## sqshoestring

I used to and still sometimes do use bulk lamp cord I get here local. It looks just like speaker wire just some has less strands some not. You can get the white or brown, those work nice on my home stereo stuff. The shielding/casing is very tough even though its thinner. But I still grab speaker wire on sale. If you want cool looks or a thicker casing then get what you want, but all this hot air about conducting electricity better is bs. Near every home in my state is wired with solid strand and all the lights work fine, and can run a welder with that little wire be it a cheap 110v one.

I usually run stock wires so I don't have to wire through the door hinges of a car. Then again I don't run over 100rms to doors. Another benefit of running passives, lol, just a joke there.

Found my last power kit on epay cheap, or I would have bought welding cable for a power line.


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## Shwedly

POLKAT said:


> Copper wire is copper wire. You are not going to hear any difference. There are many more important aspects of an audio system to stress over: Speaker selection, placement, and aiming, sound deadening, x-over points and slope, instillation of the equipment in general...all of these (and more) will have a much more profound affect on the sound you hear than wire.
> 
> Some people even tap into the stock wiring in their cars for ease of instillation. I did so in my Trailblazer for my Peerless Exclusives in my front doors and I am very happy with them. Also, I have used Monoprice wire and it is plenty thick. I have their 16 gauge wire running all through my Dodge Neon and I would gladly use it again.
> 
> Please give this a read: Speaker Wire


Well you have a point that copper is copper. However, when I will be feeding 230 watts of power to each of my front components and 600 watts to my sub, wouldnt the monoprice 12 gauge speakerwire be starving my speakers from getting full power from the amplifiers (compared to the knuk wires). If I read remember correctly lower gauge (higher copper strand count) allows current to flow more freely. So in all possible sense, knuks 297 strand count will allow much better current flow than the monoprice wires, making much better use of the power coming from my amps.

Unless ofcourse 87 strands of copper is plenty to transmit 230 watts and 600 watts of power effectively from the amp to the speakers.


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## Barnaby

Shwedly said:


> If you are talking about the knuk wire then it cant be because of sheilding since earlier I mentioned the strand count in the knuk wire is 3 times greater than the monoprice wire.


12 ga is 12 ga. More strands just means that they use smaller strands to make it 12ga. It's still just 12ga.


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## Shwedly

Haha, that is so weird I was just thinking about that. Now I can see that as being a good justification for the smaller amount of strands in the monoprice wires.


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## POLKAT

Shwedly said:


> Well you have a point that copper is copper. However, when I will be feeding 230 watts of power to each of my front components and 600 watts to my sub, wouldnt the monoprice 12 gauge speakerwire be starving my speakers from getting full power from the amplifiers (compared to the knuk wires). If I read remember correctly lower gauge (higher copper strand count) allows current to flow more freely. So in all possible sense, knuks 297 strand count will allow much better current flow than the monoprice wires, making much better use of the power coming from my amps.
> 
> Unless ofcourse 87 strands of copper is plenty to transmit 230 watts and 600 watts of power effectively from the amp to the speakers.


Go to Basic Car Audio Electronics. On the right side, scroll down to section 16. There is more information about wire there, some cool little applications, as well as a few charts. Go to the speaker wire calculator and play around with that to see how miuch power you can put through various gauges (and lengths) of wire before you will have 1db of sound loss. 

I love that site by the way. there is a plethora (Three Amigo's anyone? ) of useful information there.


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## ss1088

Also, wire with more strands is thicker because of the extra space between the strands. However, there is the same amount of copper so the performance will be the same.


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## sqshoestring

The BCAE DVD is even more fun


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## gymrat2005

Sorry but I respectfully disagree, copper is not copper and wire is not wire. Is all gold the same? No, you have 24kt, and you have 10kt. 10 being of lesser quality than 24kt..in the case of copper wire, you have low purity copper, and you have high purity copper, very different with a different set of mechanical properties (inductance, capacitance, resistance, etc..) That being said is the typical automotive system set-up to hear the differences between them..no, not at all. But I guarantee, all things being equal, you can hear the difference in let's say a set of Kimber Kable's entry level 4PR, and some rag tag copper wire, or Streetwires, or Stinger, or even Monster Cable. Especially in higher frequencies. Higher frequencies tend to travel towards the outside of the wire, and the more strands you have the more strand interaction you have. This in turn will ultimately tarnish the sound to some degree. You may not notice it tonally, but you might. Or you might notice the soundstage appearing more restricted with cheaper cables. low frequencies travel more towards the center and are only concerned with the bulk of the cable and it's ability to efficiently pass the current. This is why people choose to bi-wire home setups, to use specific wire... When I had my set of original B&W Matrix 801's I used solid core wires, for the highs, and multi-stranded wire for the bass cabinet. It didn't take hours of listening. It took five minutes of listening to hear the difference. Again, are most setups so perfect to discern the difference?...not usually especially in anything less than the absolute best designed car applications, using the best equipment. It makes no sense to pair up some boston coaxial speakers (no offense boston owners ) with some 8TC wire at about $10 a foot. But if you were running a pair of say Focal Utopia N7's in perfect alignment, with a sonically accurate amplifier, you would most definitely notice cheaper cables.


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## snaimpally

Shwedly said:


> Awesome, great link. since the quality of the speaker wire can make or break a system I am a little hesitant about those monoprice wires. Dont get me wrong, they are very affordable and have gotten really good reviews. I just have had to many bad experiences in my life where I have tried to save money and only ended up with a crappy product.
> 
> Anyone want to chime in about this monoprice speaker wires?


I have bought all kinds of cables, including speaker wire from monoprice. Its ridiculously cheap and very good quality. I got 2 LCD/Plasma mounts to hold 65lbs, up to 55" TVs, for $45 shipped for two mounts! Very solid, well made, same stuff that Best Buy sells for $200 each. I have used Monoprice speaker cable, its good stuff.

I would suggest 14-16 GA for comps and 12 GA for sub.


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## sqshoestring

Oh snap! I thought I was trapped in the home stereo forum for a second there.


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## ss1088

gymrat2005 said:


> Sorry but I respectfully disagree, copper is not copper and wire is not wire. Is all gold the same? No, you have 24kt, and you have 10kt. 10 being of lesser quality than 24kt..in the case of copper wire, you have low purity copper, and you have high purity copper, very different with a different set of mechanical properties (inductance, capacitance, resistance, etc..) That being said is the typical automotive system set-up to hear the differences between them..no, not at all. But I guarantee, all things being equal, you can hear the difference in let's say a set of Kimber Kable's entry level 4PR, and some rag tag copper wire, or Streetwires, or Stinger, or even Monster Cable. Especially in higher frequencies. Higher frequencies tend to travel towards the outside of the wire, and the more strands you have the more strand interaction you have. This in turn will ultimately tarnish the sound to some degree. You may not notice it tonally, but you might. Or you might notice the soundstage appearing more restricted with cheaper cables. low frequencies travel more towards the center and are only concerned with the bulk of the cable and it's ability to efficiently pass the current. This is why people choose to bi-wire home setups, to use specific wire... When I had my set of original B&W Matrix 801's I used solid core wires, for the highs, and multi-stranded wire for the bass cabinet. It didn't take hours of listening. It took five minutes of listening to hear the difference. Again, are most setups so perfect to discern the difference?...not usually especially in anything less than the absolute best designed car applications, using the best equipment. It makes no sense to pair up some boston coaxial speakers (no offense boston owners ) with some 8TC wire at about $10 a foot. But if you were running a pair of say Focal Utopia N7's in perfect alignment, with a sonically accurate amplifier, you would most definitely notice cheaper cables.



I am not convinced. I would have to hear this for myself. I still think a lot if it is largely psychological.


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## Barnaby

I won't argue the purity issue, non-O2 free copper will corrode quite a bit. Sound wise I don't buy it though. As I understand it the skin effect starts around 30Mhz, a bit outside my hearing range anyway. Any high frequency improvements that "may" be there are immediately lost as soon as the car is moving. 

Having played a bit with cables at the boutique stores in the past I was never able to detect a difference. That said, sugar pills have been known to make people feel better.


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## Jack Watts

rommelrommel said:


> Copper is copper. If you think otherwise I have some wonderful cables to sell you for $10000 a foot.


yes, copper is copper. No, expensive wire isn't going to 'sound' better. That said, anyone who thinks 'all electrical wire is the same' hasn't pulled wires through an old car...

All wire isn't created equal, and honestly I wouldn't use the clear-coated wire linked in an earlier post. A car is a harsh environment for wiring, due to heat, cold, dirt, etc--and it's also a pain to re-do. No reason not to do it right the first time.

To the OP, there are 2 basic things you need to worry about: having low enough resistance and keeping the wires from corroding. There shouldn't really be any other consideration.

14 gauge is overkill, but it'll meet the resistance demands of pretty much any car audio system--and is common in outdoor applications, and it's dirt cheap: 14 Gauge 2-Conductor Oxygen Free Speaker Cable 50ft

http://www.outdoorspeakerdepot.com/162uvdibuca51.html
Either of those will work, but the first one will be a little smaller/easier to work through doors. 

While 18/2 lamp cord works well, too--it's actually more expensive than this stuff.

As far as 'needing' more expensive wires or more strands, I'd urge you to read the link posted regarding speaker wire. People selling wire try to make this out to be magic, but in the end, it's simple math....


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## Shwedly

Jack Watts said:


> =
> All wire isn't created equal, and honestly I wouldn't use the clear-coated wire linked in an earlier post. A car is a harsh environment for wiring, due to heat, cold, dirt, etc--and it's also a pain to re-do. No reason not to do it right the first time.
> ....


When you say clear coated wire I hope you arent referring to the monoprice wire, because I just bought a 50 ft spool of the 12 gauge wire....yes, I was convinced. lol

I assumed that its smaller strand count versus the knuk means the copper quality is much higher. I backed up this assumption with this statement on their website about this wire:

Question: Does higher strand count provide better audio quality? 
Answer: There is a lot of spin placed on wires and cables to justify one type or another. The main reason for this is to justify an over inflated price. Fact is, stranding provides flexibility. Solid wire conductors can deliver high audio quality and arguably better run lengths, but would be more brittle and tend to break. One break and you loose connectivity. Stranded cables would be more flexible and a break in one or more lines will not cut the signal flow. But, it doesn't magically improve audio performance. 

Audio quality is influenced more my the quality of the copper. That is better milled, high purity copper will have lower signal resistance and less fluctuation in density which will lead to better signal integrity and more pure audio. All our speaker wires are milled from high quality, oxygen-free copper.

At this point, the only choice I have is to install it and see how it sounds.


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## gymrat2005

There are really three particular variables when it comes to determining how good your sound will be. One is the environment. It doesn't matter how good your equipment is if you have a noise floor of 110 db, standing waves, misaligned drivers, your not going to be able to discern the subtleties of what you are listening to. Another would be your equipment, your sound will only be as good as your weakest link/component. If you have a sparkomatic CD player, even a $2000 set of black pearl interconnects will not make a difference, and with that said your wires CAN be the weakest link. You'd be hard pressed to find someone running Krell Evolution 900 monoblocks and some Wilson Wamm's using some simple run of the mill copper wire. And one other factor to consider is your source. The recording you are listening to can also be a factor in how good your listening experience is going to be. I suppose this post should find it's way to the home audio section, but I just feel bad for those who have never been exposed to the type of equipment that will reveal crappy cables in a heartbeat. You don't know what you are missing. Anyone coming to CES this year look me up and I'll be sure to set up some cable demos for ya.


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## Shwedly

gymrat2005 said:


> There are really three particular variables when it comes to determining how good your sound will be. One is the environment. It doesn't matter how good your equipment is if you have a noise floor of 110 db, standing waves, misaligned drivers, your not going to be able to discern the subtleties of what you are listening to. Another would be your equipment, your sound will only be as good as your weakest link/component. If you have a sparkomatic CD player, even a $2000 set of black pearl interconnects will not make a difference, and with that said your wires CAN be the weakest link. You'd be hard pressed to find someone running Krell Evolution 900 monoblocks and some Wilson Wamm's using some simple run of the mill copper wire. And one other factor to consider is your source. The recording you are listening to can also be a factor in how good your listening experience is going to be. I suppose this post should find it's way to the home audio section, but I just feel bad for those who have never been exposed to the type of equipment that will reveal crappy cables in a heartbeat. You don't know what you are missing. Anyone coming to CES this year look me up and I'll be sure to set up some cable demos for ya.



Well I definitely agreed with what you say.

Unfortunately not all of us can afford high end equipment. 
In my case I am just trying to get good quality sound, in my own way possible. I know my stuff is kids stuff compared to the high end stuff out there, but I am trying to get a good understanding of all the factors that play into good audio. Ya I might be making a big fuss over nothing, but its a learning process and in doing so, I can help others when they need questions answered. Not only that, its something that I can enjoy and feel special about. My only concern is, that I do not have any unwanted noise as I do now with my aftermarket headunit, factory speakers, and metra harness. I just get a little scared when people talk about how easily noise can get introduced into an aftermarket setup. To bad I cant attend that CES event to check out the wiring demo, I am sure it would of been a very entertaining learning experience.


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## gymrat2005

Shwedly said:


> Unfortunately not all of us can afford high end equipment.


Trust me brother, I can't afford it either. But I've been exposed to it, I've listened to it, and I've sold it. 



Shwedly said:


> In my case I am just trying to get good quality sound, in my own way possible. I know my stuff is kids stuff compared to the high end stuff out there, but I am trying to get a good understanding of all the factors that play into good audio. Ya I might be making a big fuss over nothing, but its a learning process and in doing so, I can help others when they need questions answered.


Yes it is a learning process


Shwedly said:


> My only concern is, that I do not have any unwanted noise as I do now with my aftermarket headunit, factory speakers, and metra harness.


Depending on the noise you're experiencing, it's probably due to a ground loop. Is that all you have is an after market deck? Any amps or anything? If you are only running a ground into the factory harness from the deck try a ground wire to the metal frame next to the deck (be sure to scratch the paint away to get to bare metal for the ground). If you have an amp, ground the amp as close to the amp as possible, and run small ground wire from the deck back to the amp ground, and it will fix a ground loop.


Shwedly said:


> I just get a little scared when people talk about how easily noise can get introduced into an aftermarket setup.


The only real noise could be from the previously talked about ground loop, or some noise picked up from some non/bad shielded RCA cables.


Shwedly said:


> To bad I cant attend that CES event to check out the wiring demo


 I just hope it's a good show this year. With the economy the way it is, some vendors are choosing to forgo a lot of the normal trade shows. The list looks good though, although not as good as in the past.


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## quality_sound

Shwedly said:


> how many strands it takes till you dont notice a difference in sound quality anymore.



The number of strands has NOTHING to do with the SQ but everything to do with flexibility, well almost. Jacket material affects flexibility plays a part as well.


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## Shwedly

Thanks for the great info on the grounding issue. Am I supposed to splice a copper wire into the current grouding connection between the headunit and metra harness and attach that to a grounding point? Not using any aftermarket amps, but my car did come with a factory amp. What should I do about that, its located behind the glove compartment.


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## gymrat2005

Okay let's go back for a sec so I can fully understand your install. So you put in a new head unit and left the factory amp in it's original location. Is the new HU running the speakers, or is the old factory amp running them? In other words did you just interface the new HU in with the old amp, or is the new deck running the speakers? If the new deck is running the speakers was the old factory amp disconnected from the factory harness?


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## Barnaby

Yeah wow...that's a lot of analysis for a HU/factory amp integration.


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## ginster6

in car audio... i am not sure you will hear the differnet. but surely in high-end home 2 channel you will hear a different.. But since I am a kimber Kable dealer, I will be using that in my car. will i hear a different.. I dont know... but just knowing I have high-end cable in my ride. I have no turning back wondering if "xyz cable" be better.


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## savagebee

so, for arguements sake, what makes the Kimble better?


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## gijoe

savagebee said:


> so, for arguements sake, what makes the Kimble better?


Nothing.

Although there is a difference between pure copper and cheap copper, the difference in resistance between the 2 in a 10 foot wire isn't going to matter. I'll bet the difference in that short of a run isn't even measurable with most DMM's, let alone audible.


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## gymrat2005

The one thing that I will say about expensive cable is there is a concept known as "The law of diminishing returns". That means that the more and more you spend on high-end cables, the less and less of an improvement you will hear for your money. For those who don't hear a difference in cables, tonally, there is typically no difference if under the same conditions, you compare the same gauge of wire. But when it comes to imaging and soundstage, it's not subjective when the image seems constrained and narrowly focused with a cheap cable, then suddenly stretches beyond the bounds of the speaker array, separating the musicians across the stage..that's pretty darn easy to tell.


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## BTA

anyway say coat hangers yet?


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## gijoe

gymrat2005 said:


> The one thing that I will say about expensive cable is there is a concept known as "The law of diminishing returns". That means that the more and more you spend on high-end cables, the less and less of an improvement you will hear for your money. For those who don't hear a difference in cables, tonally, there is typically no difference if under the same conditions, you compare the same gauge of wire. But when it comes to imaging and soundstage, it's not subjective when the image seems constrained and narrowly focused with a cheap cable, then suddenly stretches beyond the bounds of the speaker array, separating the musicians across the stage..that's pretty darn easy to tell.


I'm not keeping this up to argue with you. I'm keeping this up to inform the OP and other viewers that this is ********!

Don't blow unnecessary cash on your wires.


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## gymrat2005

gijoe said:


> I'm not keeping this up to argue with you. I'm keeping this up to inform the OP and other viewers that this is ********!


Everyone is entitled to their opinion..what do you run in your system..lamp chord?


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## starboy869

Would it be possible to use a scope on the speaker wire? More like could you see a difference in readings.


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## razholio

gymrat2005 said:


> Sorry but I respectfully disagree, copper is not copper and wire is not wire. Is all gold the same? No, you have 24kt, and you have 10kt. 10 being of lesser quality than 24kt..in the case of copper wire, you have low purity copper, and you have high purity copper, very different with a different set of mechanical properties (inductance, capacitance, resistance, etc..) That being said is the typical automotive system set-up to hear the differences between them..no, not at all. But I guarantee, all things being equal, you can hear the difference in let's say a set of Kimber Kable's entry level 4PR, and some rag tag copper wire, or Streetwires, or Stinger, or even Monster Cable. Especially in higher frequencies. Higher frequencies tend to travel towards the outside of the wire, and the more strands you have the more strand interaction you have. This in turn will ultimately tarnish the sound to some degree. You may not notice it tonally, but you might. Or you might notice the soundstage appearing more restricted with cheaper cables. low frequencies travel more towards the center and are only concerned with the bulk of the cable and it's ability to efficiently pass the current. This is why people choose to bi-wire home setups, to use specific wire... When I had my set of original B&W Matrix 801's I used solid core wires, for the highs, and multi-stranded wire for the bass cabinet. It didn't take hours of listening. It took five minutes of listening to hear the difference. Again, are most setups so perfect to discern the difference?...not usually especially in anything less than the absolute best designed car applications, using the best equipment. It makes no sense to pair up some boston coaxial speakers (no offense boston owners ) with some 8TC wire at about $10 a foot. But if you were running a pair of say Focal Utopia N7's in perfect alignment, with a sonically accurate amplifier, you would most definitely notice cheaper cables.


looks like someone's been drinkin' the koolaid again. I'd recommend some reading from an engineer, as opposed to the sales-bots that spout that stuff. ZED AUDIO CORPORATION

my fave part is the ABX cable test with coat-hangers!


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## gymrat2005

sorry, no sales bots. When you sell high-end audio, you have the unusual ability to hook up insanely expensive equipment, and indulge in hundreds of hours of listening. 

I'll just bow out of this thread as it seems pointless to go tit-for-tat all day long, and if the OP needs more help diagnosing the noise in his system, he can PM me.

Ciao!


----------



## razholio

> ...sell high-end audio...


It's my own bias, but I'll side with the engineers over the salesmen every, single, time.


----------



## gijoe

gymrat2005 said:


> sorry, no sales bots. When you sell high-end audio, you have the unusual ability to hook up insanely expensive equipment, and indulge in hundreds of hours of listening.
> 
> I'll just bow out of this thread as it seems pointless to go tit-for-tat all day long, and if the OP needs more help diagnosing the noise in his system, he can PM me.
> 
> Ciao!


No need to bow out, lets just discuss what a speaker wire does and separate fact from fiction. There are a lot of very successful people out there who have very little knowledge in their particular field. 

Anyone who spends $1,000 on some speaker cable will hear a difference vs. cheap cables. Why? Because they just spent a $1,000 on some cables, if they don't convince themselves that they hear a difference, then they just wasted their money.

Speaker wire carries alternating current AC. These pulses are what make the speaker move in and out and they dictate how fast and how far the speaker will move. 

High frequencies travel through the same path in the wire as low frequencies, the high frequencies don't travel through the outside and the lows the inside. It's basic electricity, the current travels through the path of least resistance, regardless of the frequency.

Take a look at some high end headphones. A the best headphones will out perform the best home audio equipment. Those headphones don't use and magic cords and cables. It's all very basic, very simple wire. Why is that? Because they sell the headphones as a complete package. They don't spend any more money than they need to in order to achieve the best performance. 

Alternating current is a very simple thing. Transferring this current from an amp to a speaker just takes a wire that has minimal resistance. In the short runs used in the car and at home the resistance from one wire to the next is going to be so small it will not make a difference in the quality of the signal.


----------



## Lanson

gymrat2005 said:


> sorry, no sales bots. When you sell high-end audio, you have the unusual ability to hook up insanely expensive equipment, and indulge in hundreds of hours of listening.
> 
> I'll just bow out of this thread as it seems pointless to go tit-for-tat all day long, and if the OP needs more help diagnosing the noise in his system, he can PM me.
> 
> Ciao!



Actually I can play that game myself. I worked at Ultimate for the better part of a decade, and had similar experiences with home audio. Bottom line, even though I was the #1 salesperson for Monster Cable upgrade sales pretty much every month I worked there, I never knowingly lied to my customers about what I heard or what I felt was better. I can not hear the difference in speaker wires, at all, provided we are talking at least about decent quality non-corroded copper to start with. Time alignment is a factor in wires, but not with wires 10-20' long. Start getting into crazy long runs and MAYBE you could measure a difference, but I still doubt it would be any more auditory than a speaker tilting forward or back a couple degrees. At any rate, to the OP...I have used Liberty 16 ga and 14 ga copper wire (in-wall rated for good sheath strength) for years and years, as well as simple lamp cord wire when wire damage isn't possibly a concern (not in cars.) I've also used Monster Z4 cables because customers felt it was important (and I respect that), and I'm sure it all works just fine.

Knukonceptz sells fine wire, so does Dayton, Liberty, and I'm sure monoprice though I've never used them.


----------



## savagebee

gymrat2005 said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinion..what do you run in your system..lamp chord?


On this forum the majority believe that expensive cable is b.s.
I have never auditioned expensive cables, so I wont judge this (I have my opinions though)

Was this a double or triple blind test?
Did you know the brands or appearances of the brands as they were being switched?

Tell us the details of how you were able to establish sonic differences in cabling


----------



## Shwedly

Since this thread is so popular now I thought I should post another newb question here. Hehe

What kind of terminal connections am I supposed to use for my woofers and the subwoofer? Never done it before so im clueless as to how it works. Here are some pics of my speakers.


And the tweeters that came with the woofers have like 6 inches of what looks like 16+ gauge wire dangling from them. Is it safe to connect 12 gauge speaker wire to those really thin wires? Should I just twist the wires together and put heat shrink tape on top or should I use some kind of connection adapter.


----------



## savagebee

Shwedly said:


> Since this thread is so popular now I thought I should post another newb question here. Hehe
> 
> What kind of terminal connections am I supposed to use for my woofers and the subwoofer? Never done it before so im clueless as to how it works. Here are some pics of my speakers.
> 
> 
> And the tweeters that came with the woofers have like 6 inches of what looks like 16+ gauge wire dangling from them. Is it safe to connect 12 gauge speaker wire to those really thin wires? Should I just twist the wires together and put heat shrink tape on top or should I use some kind of connection adapter.


if you will be removing the tweeters often, get some male/female spades with plastic covers, that way it is easy to swap em out.

I cant see the pics, but if the subs have push terminals you can use a short section of stripped wire, or use some bullet connectors or several others.
yes its safe for the smaller wire.
16 gauge is probably all you need, but I also run 12 gauge wire. It may be overkill, but it will insure you do not need to upgrade wiring at any point.

You may want to set up a terminal system if you plan on swapping drivers or positions (If you do it long enough you WILL do this)

get some of the terminal blocks from lowes ($7 with 12 straight through connectors covered in plastic), they look like amp terminals somewhat, and have a screw down system. If you have a speaker distribution block at each door, and at the amps you can rearrange your setup easily, without having to re run or splice speaker wire all the time.


----------



## ginster6

savagebee said:


> so, for arguements sake, what makes the Kimble better?


I am not saying kimber kable is the best out there. I have tried all other company like "MIT cable, Nordost, Tara lab, cardas, audioquest....." tons more. I work in high-end audio. and I was a ex-owner of FMS Cables. Every Cable has a different sound to it. It just because I work with kimber for over 15 years. i am very comfortable with the product and the sound character that will give me. It is like drinking coffee. some like peets some like starbuck, and I like illy coffee.

very true copper is copper. it is about the design of the flow to make the music come alive. you will be surprise when you do side by side comparison.

Also very true about dollars returns on high-end cable..... the higher end you get the smaller percent of different in sound and thats only if you can hear it. that saying a actually true in the high-end home system... not talking about cheap a$$ home theater setup, but true two channel audio music listening. a $20,000 speaker compare to $40,000 speaker. yes it is better, but is it $20k better that is the question to be ask.


----------



## Oliver

ginster6 said:


> in car audio... i am not sure you will hear the differnet. but surely in high-end home 2 channel you will hear a different.. But since I am a kimber Kable dealer, I will be using that in my car. will i hear a different.. I dont know... but just knowing I have high-end cable in my ride. I have no turning back wondering if "xyz cable" be better.


Bwa Ha Ha :laugh: ^ ^ ^ ^

I always wear Kimber Kable G-Strings when I'm in California ar the Gh3y Bars


----------



## savagebee

savagebee said:


> On this forum the majority believe that expensive cable is b.s.
> I have never auditioned expensive cables, so I wont judge this (I have my opinions though)
> 
> Was this a double or triple blind test?
> Did you know the brands or appearances of the brands as they were being switched?
> 
> Tell us the details of how you were able to establish sonic differences in cabling





ginster6 said:


> I am not saying kimber kable is the best out there. I have tried all other company like "MIT cable, Nordost, Tara lab, cardas, audioquest....." tons more. I work in high-end audio. and I was a ex-owner of FMS Cables. Every Cable has a different sound to it. It just because I work with kimber for over 15 years. i am very comfortable with the product and the sound character that will give me. It is like drinking coffee. some like peets some like starbuck, and I like illy coffee.
> 
> very true copper is copper. it is about the design of the flow to make the music come alive. you will be surprise when you do side by side comparison.
> 
> Also very true about dollars returns on high-end cable..... the higher end you get the smaller percent of different in sound and thats only if you can hear it. that saying a actually true in the high-end home system... not talking about cheap a$$ home theater setup, but true two channel audio music listening. a $20,000 speaker compare to $40,000 speaker. yes it is better, but is it $20k better that is the question to be ask.



.....


----------



## Lanson

Shwedly said:


> Since this thread is so popular now I thought I should post another newb question here. Hehe
> 
> What kind of terminal connections am I supposed to use for my woofers and the subwoofer? Never done it before so im clueless as to how it works. Here are some pics of my speakers.
> 
> 
> And the tweeters that came with the woofers have like 6 inches of what looks like 16+ gauge wire dangling from them. Is it safe to connect 12 gauge speaker wire to those really thin wires? Should I just twist the wires together and put heat shrink tape on top or should I use some kind of connection adapter.


I'm going to actually answer this, but you should search things like this at Basic Car Audio Electronics

You can connect whatever size wire you want that will fit, but you just realized exactly why going bigger, badder, better doesn't matter. The tinsels (that's the small wire you are seeing at the woofer) are what they are, a flexible weave of conductor to make a connection to the voice coil. You don't need wire any larger than that, really. Bigger wire means less resistance, but real resistance losses only occur from either A: poor connections, and/or B: very long distances. 

It is simple math (math that bcae1 covers perfectly), and so you can pretty much dispel any jaberwocky to the contrary about special wire here or there. 

Solution, with the power the speaker can handle (and NOT what you are going to "send" to it, pick your wire. If that speaker has a thermal power handling that I think it has, 16 to 14 gauge wire is sufficient. To terminate the speaker, use gold-plated terminals soldered properly (high temp, no cold joints) to the wire, and cover that with insulation so it doesn't corrode. You could also solder directly but heat isn't good for a tinsel especially if you don't know exactly what you are doing. You can kill the coil if you get stupid.

you can visit Radioshack if you don't want to deal with the typical car or home audio BS. Or you can order terminals at parts express.


----------



## Shwedly

Soldering? Hmmm I have never done any type of soldering before. Is this really necessary or is there an alternative (easier) method for making efficient connections.


----------



## gijoe

Shwedly said:


> Soldering? Hmmm I have never done any type of soldering before. Is this really necessary or is there an alternative (easier) method for making efficient connections.


Soldering is probably the most reliable connection, but if you don't want to solder get some good crimp connectors from radio shack. Twisting the wires isn't going to be very reliable over time.


----------



## Shwedly

gijoe said:


> Soldering is probably the most reliable connection, but if you don't want to solder get some good crimp connectors from radio shack. Twisting the wires isn't going to be very reliable over time.


Great. Thanks for the tip. I will definitely be using crimp connectors.


----------



## quality_sound

ginster6 said:


> it is about the design of the flow to make the music come alive.



What the **** does this even mean? "The design of the flow?" Are you saying you can design a cable to change AC delivery rates??? You make time machines too? 

Like others here I too have sold my share of high end HT gear and the only cables I EVER heard a difference with were MITs and that was because of the networks.


----------



## ginster6

quality_sound said:


> What the **** does this even mean? "The design of the flow?" Are you saying you can design a cable to change AC delivery rates??? You make time machines too?
> 
> Like others here I too have sold my share of high end HT gear and the only cables I EVER heard a difference with were MITs and that was because of the networks.


what you heard was cap and coils in there. ever open one up.. you should...
MIT and Transparent cable are the same.

I guess your system does not have enough resolution for you to hear the different. what speaker and equipment are you using.? if you dont mind me asking...

I may not have the to most $$$$$ equipment, but this is my current setup.

Verity Audio Parsifal Ovation speaker. (have a pair of Verity Sarastro II on order) 
Nagra PL-P preamp
Nagra CD-c CD player
Nagra PMA amp mono block
Sota Star Sappire V5 w/ SME 5 tonearm.
Logitech Transporter.
Kimber Select cooper/Silver speaker cable
Kimber Select silver/Silver interconnects.
Kimber Palladiam PK10 power cords


speaker that I owned in the past.
Wilson Audio Wattpuppy 5
Wilson Audio Wattpuppy 6
Thiel 3.6
Thiel 2.3
Totom mani
Revel Studio
B&W N805
B&W N802
and many more... 

Amp
Krell KSA-100
Krell FPB-300
Ayre V-1
Ayre V-3
Monarchy SM100
Bel Canto Evo2
Bel Canto Ref1000
Mark Levinson 334
and many more.

Pre-amp
Ayre K-1 (my ref preamp for over 10 years, Still miss it)
Ayre K-3

damn the more I think about... thank god I am in that business. or I will be end up in a shack.


----------



## savagebee

savagebee said:


> On this forum the majority believe that expensive cable is b.s.
> I have never auditioned expensive cables, so I wont judge this (I have my opinions though)
> 
> Was this a double or triple blind test?
> Did you know the brands or appearances of the brands as they were being switched?
> 
> Tell us the details of how you were able to establish sonic differences in cabling


Please respond to this


----------



## ginster6

savagebee said:


> Please respond to this


we test in a treated sound room. at 12-1 am. when the power is the cleanest. we basically know how that system sound.. in a very super-high resolution system..Most of the time Spectral with Avalon speaker...... it is very easy to tell. we alway have 2 to 4 person that also listening. we all have different comment of how it sound after 1 change to the setup whether it a electronic equipment change to just different spike holding up the units. so again... there is never a best. 

Today when I listen to system, I dont say or think about ...
"wow it is so focus, clear, or that is some depth" every person hears it different.

I dont compare stuff anymore. As long as I start to tap my foot with the music. it is a good system.

But when you are use to the sound. any change, you will know right away.


----------



## Dryseals

Shwedly said:


> Well you have a point that copper is copper. However, when I will be feeding 230 watts of power to each of my front components and 600 watts to my sub, wouldnt the monoprice 12 gauge speakerwire be starving my speakers from getting full power from the amplifiers (compared to the knuk wires). If I read remember correctly lower gauge (higher copper strand count) allows current to flow more freely. So in all possible sense, knuks 297 strand count will allow much better current flow than the monoprice wires, making much better use of the power coming from my amps.
> 
> Unless ofcourse 87 strands of copper is plenty to transmit 230 watts and 600 watts of power effectively from the amp to the speakers.


Give it up, you're into the "sales" pitch. The gauge of the wire is directly related to the current carrying capability. Listen to what folks here are saying.

I've been in this line of work for close to 40 years. If you really think your getting something better by paying more then by all means drop the cash and keep going.


----------



## Oliver

ginster6 said:


> what you heard was cap and coils in there. ever open one up.. you should...
> MIT and Transparent cable are the same.
> 
> I guess your system does not have enough resolution for you to hear the different. what speaker and equipment are you using.? if you dont mind me asking...
> 
> I may not have the to most $$$$$ equipment, but this is my current setup.
> 
> Verity Audio Parsifal Ovation speaker. (have a pair of Verity Sarastro II on order)
> Nagra PL-P preamp
> Nagra CD-c CD player
> Nagra PMA amp mono block
> Sota Star Sappire V5 w/ SME 5 tonearm.
> Logitech Transporter.
> Kimber Select cooper/Silver speaker cable
> Kimber Select silver/Silver interconnects.
> Kimber Palladiam PK10 power cords
> 
> 
> speaker that I owned in the past.
> Wilson Audio Wattpuppy 5
> Wilson Audio Wattpuppy 6
> Thiel 3.6
> Thiel 2.3
> Totom mani
> Revel Studio
> B&W N805
> B&W N802
> and many more...
> 
> Amp
> Krell KSA-100
> Krell FPB-300
> Ayre V-1
> Ayre V-3
> Monarchy SM100
> Bel Canto Evo2
> Bel Canto Ref1000
> Mark Levinson 334
> and many more.
> 
> Pre-amp
> Ayre K-1 (my ref preamp for over 10 years, Still miss it)
> Ayre K-3
> 
> damn the more I think about... thank god I am in that business. or I will be end up in a shack.


In a car your wires aren't going to be as noticeable 

Stick with the high end cars 1 million or so . . . , then buy the absolute very best system say about 3 million or so . . . , finally move to another country


----------



## ginster6

a$$hole said:


> In a car your wires aren't going to be as noticeable
> 
> Stick with the high end cars 1 million or so . . . , then buy the absolute very best system say about 3 million or so . . . , finally move to another country



Well that what I said from the beginning. in the car. I dont know will I heard the different.
but knowing that I have good cables in there satisfy me.

I dont drive 1 mil cars... I drive $100k cars. and have 3 of them. if I buy 7 more $100k car.. then I will have 1 million dollar worth if car.... hahah .. I wish..


----------



## Lanson

Really, nobody else is going to say it? You all have to be thinking it so I'll just say it.....



THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!...


----------



## savagebee

ginster6 said:


> we test in a treated sound room. at 12-1 am. when the power is the cleanest. we basically know how that system sound.. in a very super-high resolution system..Most of the time Spectral with Avalon speaker...... it is very easy to tell. we alway have 2 to 4 person that also listening. we all have different comment of how it sound after 1 change to the setup whether it a electronic equipment change to just different spike holding up the units. so again... there is never a best.
> 
> Today when I listen to system, I dont say or think about ...
> "wow it is so focus, clear, or that is some depth" every person hears it different.
> 
> I dont compare stuff anymore. As long as I start to tap my foot with the music. it is a good system.
> 
> But when you are use to the sound. any change, you will know right away.


so there was no "blind" comparison?

Why not set one up and disprove the common belief of this forum.


----------



## ginster6

savagebee said:


> so there was no "blind" comparison?
> 
> Why not set one up and disprove the common belief of this forum.


yes we do blind.. what i do is go up to the equipment and say I change some stuff, but I actually did not.. now when I do these comparison I usually have 2to4 other people.. true sometime they say some change in the sound. but i have not done anything. there is no true science to this. some hear it. some dont. and some dont have the money to pour on it, so in belief that it might be a waste of $$$. even I sometime dont hear a different. that's the fun in it. being a audiophile tweaky guy.



i have a feeling that I will get flame out of this thread soon....:laugh::laugh:


----------



## savagebee

have you ever tried the comparo with some extremely cheap cabling?
lamp cord for example?


----------



## ginster6

savagebee said:


> have you ever tried the comparo with some extremely cheap cabling?
> lamp cord for example?


we tried from DIY Cat5, home depot 12/2. and monster.

it been a long time. but if i remember 12/2 and monster has the most bass. but muddy bass. monster was warmer in sound then HD 12/2. Cat5 has the best speed, better mid and highs. but weak in bass.


----------



## gijoe

ginster6 said:


> we tried from DIY Cat5, home depot 12/2. and monster.
> 
> it been a long time. but if i remember 12/2 and monster has the most bass. but muddy bass. monster was warmer in sound then HD 12/2. Cat5 has the best speed, better mid and highs. but weak in bass.


Can you tell me how one cable is going to have better bass than another? Warmer sound? Come on man, you mentioned that people claimed to hear a difference even when you didn't change anything. This should show you something about how our hearing works and how psycho-acoustics play a role. Our hearing isn't very accurate when there is more than an instantaneous change in sound. We forget the details of sound after just a few seconds. You should set up a true double blind test where cables are switched and you aren't in the room with the listeners. Do it on a large enough scale and you'll find out how much money people waste on wire. Something as tiny as your vocal reaction or your facial expression can influence people to "hear" a difference. Set up the test in a scientific manner and eliminate the variables.


----------



## comforta

Austin said:


> For only $16.38 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 14AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire Cable - 100ft | 14AWG Loud Speaker Cable
> 
> For only $9.73 each when QTY 50+ purchased - 12AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire Cable - 50ft | 12AWG Loud Speaker Cable
> 
> Bam Bam.


This is a pretty good site.


----------



## ginster6

gijoe said:


> Can you tell me how one cable is going to have better bass than another? Warmer sound? Come on man, you mentioned that people claimed to hear a difference even when you didn't change anything. This should show you something about how our hearing works and how psycho-acoustics play a role. Our hearing isn't very accurate when there is more than an instantaneous change in sound. We forget the details of sound after just a few seconds. You should set up a true double blind test where cables are switched and you aren't in the room with the listeners. Do it on a large enough scale and you'll find out how much money people waste on wire. Something as tiny as your vocal reaction or your facial expression can influence people to "hear" a difference. Set up the test in a scientific manner and eliminate the variables.


all i can say.. try it your self. i dont do comparison anymore. 
As long I can hear the differnet.. that all it matters. dont forget it was my business. it was my job to convince my clients. and they hear it..

just go to high-end audio store and borrow some... listen it for yourself..


----------



## Oliver

ginster6 to bad you don't know who Richard Clark is

He would give you an incredible amount of money if you could demonstrate your abilities, you could buy anything your heart desired


----------



## ginster6

a$$hole said:


> ginster6 to bad you don't know who Richard Clark is
> 
> He would give you an incredible amount of money if you could demonstrate your abilities, you could buy anything your heart desired


yes i do.. I talk to him in the 90's with david N. i think it was either 93 or 94. 
car and home stuff are different..


----------



## gijoe

ginster6 said:


> yes i do.. I talk to him in the 90's with david N. i think it was either 93 or 94.
> car and home stuff are different..


Car and home are different? Why does AC current in the house work differently that AC in the car?


----------



## quality_sound

ginster6 said:


> what you heard was cap and coils in there. ever open one up.. you should...
> MIT and Transparent cable are the same.


I know what's in there. I was one of their beta testers for the car networks they ended up not making.



> I guess your system does not have enough resolution for you to hear the different. what speaker and equipment are you using.? if you dont mind me asking...


It wasn't my gear, it was the store's high end room. And it wasn't just me. NO ONE heard a difference.


----------



## Oliver

Have you tried these>>>Above All Audio *Solid Gold Alloy Speaker Cable $899.00*, ends Oct-23 9:55 am PDT. ...





ginster6 said:


> yes i do.. I talk to him in the 90's with david N. i think it was either 93 or 94.
> car and home stuff are different..


I've never seen him post anything about you on Car Sound and Performance

Mebbe he forgot that you could hear the difference between wires and it cost him *$50,000.00 dollars* after you correctly guessed 20 times in a row that you were hearing Kimber Kables :laugh:


----------



## Dryseals

savagebee said:


> On this forum the majority believe that expensive cable is b.s.
> I have never auditioned expensive cables, so I wont judge this (I have my opinions though)
> 
> Was this a double or triple blind test?
> Did you know the brands or appearances of the brands as they were being switched?
> 
> Tell us the details of how you were able to establish sonic differences in cabling


That's simple, it's called psychoacoustics. Folks believe they can hear a difference and therefore the money they spend is justified.

The wire falisey has been proven in more ways that one could count, but it still lingers on, there a sucker born every minute.


----------



## savagebee

Dryseals said:


> That's simple, it's called psychoacoustics. Folks believe they can hear a difference and therefore the money they spend is justified.
> 
> The wire falisey has been proven in more ways that one could count, but it still lingers on, there a sucker born every minute.


I understand the idea of psychoacoustics, but when someone comes around with the voodoo theory about wires affecting music, I always try to hear about how they determined it.

He admitted in a round a bout way that they never did any serious testing to differentiate between expensive and typical speaker cables, and thats what i was after. If he talked about how he did double or triple blind testing with the cables changed in another room or out of sight, etc.


----------



## Oliver

Here's how I test em . . .

1] If I'm sellin them for a profit . . . they are the best thing since mothers milk.

2] If I ain't sellin em . . . the BS is obvious { buy the bestest from this punk }:laugh:

with my wires you can hear a gnat fart at 1 mile , guaranteed . . . BR549 and ask for Junior


----------



## quality_sound

Dryseals said:


> That's simple, it's called psychoacoustics. Folks believe they can hear a difference and therefore the money they spend is justified.
> 
> The wire falisey has been proven in more ways that one could count, but it still lingers on, there a sucker born every minute.


Dude, if you're gonna use big words, spell the damned things correctly. It's FALLACY.


----------



## Dryseals

quality_sound said:


> Dude, if you're gonna use big words, spell the damned things correctly. It's FALLACY.


Oops, felled to daudge the spelring police. 

Product of phonics, living in the south and a cerebral aneurysm a few years back. At this point in life, I donna much worrie bout it.

But to keep you from having to proof read everthing I post from now on, I'll ensure, or is it insure, to have my spelling and verbiage organized in such a manner as to not ruffle your feathers. You can untie your panties now.


----------



## Shwedly

I feel like I have unleashed pandora's box on this thread...lol

Its entertaining.


----------



## gijoe

Shwedly said:


> I feel like I have unleashed pandora's box on this thread...lol
> 
> Its entertaining.


You have, I just hope you're listening to the right people.


----------



## Shwedly

Ya, I am. I understand everything now about wires, thanks to this thread and people like you.


----------



## trunks9_us

I think wires make a difference to a certain degree I dont think they mean everything in the world but I believe if your going to spend some serious dough on some high end gear then go ahead and get some silver wire or silver plated ofc wire thats what I did and I t makes me feel better at night knowing I did the right thing. 


Like lets says this if you whole front stage amps speakers are like $1000 lets say this is only a example now. then get the ofc copper wire and be done with it. Its when your getting into higher end when I believe if your going to spend that much money on speakers like $3000 for just speakers its not going to hurt you to spend $200 for speaker wire. 

So wire doesn't make a difference huh?
What about all the other threads when amps all sound the same that are all difference in cost of money and the same for speakers and hu are all hu and amps and speakers the same? Dont the $500 amps sound as good as the $2500 dollar ones?

There is a similar thread going on on another fourm about a month ago that was 8 pages long 

Here is the link

Best speaker wire - Page 8 - AVS Forum

In personal opinion I think wire does make a difference after my install is done am I going to swap out 25 bucks of walmart stinger wire vs my KASA Kable Silver Plated 12 Gauge Speaker Wire to run a test? HELL NO I am to lazy to do all of that.

Now I do believe there is a limit in buying cable as in I will not spend $10000 on cables.

Here is another link I thought would be important.

Most Expensive Audio Cables

Just remember I think you should buy a lil better grade quality like silver plated ofc wire is good enough for me I will not spend crazy amounts of money on my system even in home.

I do believe there is a mark up in every piece of equipment the question is how much mark up is there in each mfc there


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## razholio

Audio is so subjective that blind testing is needed to make sure the ol' subjectivity isn't in effect. Without it, you can't say anything about a comparison.

As far as the amp analogy, that's a bad one. The simplest component in a circuit is the wire (very low value resistor, really). An amp, OTOH, is rather complex, and blind tests have proven differences time and time again.


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