# Midrange/Midwoofer comparison, Part 2/2



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Part 1 of the test... measurements of stuff.

So, here's the conclusions on the subjective listening test. I wanted to do a dual blind test at two different occasions first but we couldn't get it to work. Too little time unfortunately. 

If you have read the other thread I lost the CF-card to my camera with pictures and stuff so sorry for the lack of pictures, anyway I got the results. We were three people, me and two others (more 'audiophile' than me). We listened to each set of speakers while another guy shifted the speakers behind a "curtain" of speaker cloth (quite impossible to see through). He shifted the banana plugs manually, so no speaker switch was involved. Used a DLS Ultimate A4 as amplifier together with a bit.10 DSP for active crossovers. Source unit was a Pioneer P99rs together with a iPod filled with lossless music. RCA cables and speaker cables were from 'Van del Hul' (not mine). 

All drivers were crossed at LP/HP 2250Hz/24dB (LR). HPF was set at 50Hz/24dB (BW) - for the tested drivers ofc... A preset for each set of drivers was saved beforehand to level match the tweeter against the woofer. It was done by measuring the drivers and checking SPL between 300-1000Hz (tested driver) and 3000-5000Hz (tweeter) via RoomEQ. Level was set around 0,5dB of each other. Listening level was 85dB/3,5m (defined in 300-1000Hz range).

We used the same pair of Peerless HDS 810921 tweeter, a very good tweeter that can be crossed low. All drivers were put in aperiodic enclosures, around 40liter big to simulate IB setups. The final Qtc varied therefore for each driver (as they do in a car door). The room was a absorption damped room which was approximately 4,2 x 5 x 2,5m big. 

We listened to 12 tracks in total for each set of speakers, we chose 4 each. We choose songs of various genres so we could evaluate all aspects of the listening experience. 

1. Allan Taylor - Color of the Moon
2. Ewen Carruthers - The Amber Room
3. Eagles - Hotel California (Unplugged)
4. Yello - You better hide
5. Dream Theater - Pull Me Under
6. Cheryl Wheeler - Sylvia Hotel
7. Infected Mushroom - Avratz
8. Nightwish - Slow, Love, Slow
9. Michael Jackson - Billie Jean
10. Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms
11. Jeanne Newhall - Hungry Heart
12. Steve Strauss - Closer

We evaluated bass amount, how clean the bass sounded, same with midbass and most importantly the midrange. Both the tonality (bright,dull,neutral) and how clean it sounded. Also the soundstage, how instruments were presented and how separated they sounded from each other. We also discussed the listening fatigue, which has much to do with tonality and distortion. We also listened to each set of drivers 30 degrees offaxis and evaluated how much the tonality shifted.

Each test was ranked from 1-10 (10 being best). We all know these songs and how they are "supposed to sound". We discussed the sound and came to a general conclusion for each test, we didn't however always agree so I just averaged the result between us three.

*The Dayton RS125 driver couldn't reproduce 50Hz in a good manner so we made an exception and used an 80Hz/24dB HPF for it instead (beforehand) *

Ok. Now the results:

*DLS Iridium 8i*

Comments: Very good output in the lower range... Have a certain weight to them, however they sounded a bit muddy at times... Upper midrange harsh with female vocals... Bad separation of instruments in several songs now... tonality is natural but yet it doesn't sound 'right', can't put my finger on it...

_We all agreed this driver should be great in a three-way crossed low. Heavy low-end, lots of power to it. Male vocals were good to excellent however female vocals were a mess. Sounded harsh and unnatural. Stage was uneven, good at some frequencies but muddy and harsh at others. The flute in the Yello song was really annoying to listen at with these drivers. Basically, good for bass but neither of us thought it would qualify as a good midrange driver. Tonality got "weird" in the off-axis test. Sounded strange and not in a good manner._

*Usher 8848P*

Comments: Very likable, does nothing wrong really... Decent output, 'smooth' lows... Mmm, love the midrange... Really nice midrange, damn clean vocals... staging is wonderful, however I feel it smears the 'microdetail' some... Kinda dry sounding, dull lows and bright midrange, yet I don't consider it to be fatiguing to listen at... Quite musical/warm sounding, whatever (that was me lol)...

_We all liked this driver and while it did nothing wrong, it could be better. It's strong side was the midrange, it presented a good stage with good separation. Female vocals were close to perfect, male vocals sometime lacked a little foundation. It had a natural to warm character and a tad bright upper midrange. Dry lows, clean but kinda dull. The brightness in upper midrange got better when we listened offaxis. _

*Dayton RS180*

Comments: Nice punch in that Jackson song... Sounds really natural to me, quite smooth yet detailed... Great wow-factor, upper lows sound wonderful, almost an "in your face, live feeling", if you know what I mean... lows sound a bit bloated, yet decent output... love the male vocals, best yet... staging was better with the last driver, it fails separating instruments at times... Hm sounds dull in the midrange , piano and guitars sounds a bit unnatural... She sound a bit veiled... (nightwish song). 

_We liked this driver for its excellent "live" feeling (especially me, gave it a 10). Had a certain punch to it, the midbass performance was wonderful. It would have been great if it didn't mess up in the midrange. Tonality wasn't "that" good, by no means bad but we all felt it was lacking somehow. It had a decent presentation. The male vocals were stellar. The Steve Strauss song sounded exceptional on this set of drivers. Bass output was good but it felt slightly muddy. We all agreed it was an overall good performer. It wasn't fatiguing to listen at and it performed decent in the offaxis test but lost even more of the upper midrange. _

*Seas L18 - H1224/8*

Comments: "This sounds good, after a while it even sounds great, kinda grows on you... Gotta say, this driver does nothing wrong really... A little more foundation in the bass and this would have been perfect, but how clean it sounds, amazing... Wow, the separation and micro-detail is astounding... Smooth, love this driver already...

_We all agreed this was the best overall performer. It lacked output, but what it did play it did good, really good. The entire frequency range was smooth, natural and CLEAN. Could listen to it for days and not get fatigued by it, the midrange reminded me of my ScanSpeak Illu towers. The offaxis test was interesting, felt like you attenuated the volume some, other than that no change. Male vocals lacked some weight but the female vocals were amazing. _

*Dayton RS125/8*

Fail: We kinda understood that this was the small 4" right away, it was very noticeable when asked to play the lower end.

Comments: Lacks output, this gotta be the small driver (fail)... Mmm, yeah - lacks output, sounds muddy as crap too... Sounds strained... If we don't mind the lower end, the midrange performance is wonderful, great presentation... love how it presents the acoustical songs... sound wonderful, great tonality, sounds clean... Sounds smooth and natural, slightly too bright for me though...

_Well, so much for blind testing. We were like 99% sure it was the RS125 we listened at, lacked lots of output compared to the others (go figure...). Other than that it performed good, as a midrange driver it did its job well. Sounded clean, staged good. Female vocals sounded right to us all, male vocals could get muddy. Separated the instruments good, fair amount of detail. The offaxis test winner, maintained both tonality and stage offaxis. No piercing tendencies, sounded smooth overall, slightly cold character as pointed out by my two friends. As a pure midrange driver, we recommend it._

*Exodus Anarchy*

Comments: "Oh, interesting sounding speakers... a bit loudness character, likable... feels like the midrange is attenuated, no real presence... Oh my, the bass - best yet, amazing power yet clean... male vocals, great, great but hm... can't put my finger on it, female vocals sounds slightly dull... love the bass, great punch, nice weight and great male vocals.

_We agreed that it was indeed a very good bass performer. We felt it had a bit loudness character, the midrange sounded attenuated, however clean. Presented a good soundstage, separation between instrument was good. It did the male vocals right, but the female vocals sounded dull simply put. It had occasionally a bright sounding/slight ringing in the upper midrange. Had a slight "cold" character to it, it sounded clean and slightly clinical sometimes. Created a slight listening fatigue after a while, but not that bad really. Off-axis tonality was decent/good. Other than a slightly cold and attenuated mid-midrange it was a good performer. The bass performance was stellar_



*Conclusions?*

For an overall SQ driver, we all thought the Seas L18 to be the best driver. Quite funny, since I hated this driver before (had issues with the phase plug rubbing against the cone). If you want great bass output get the Exodus Anarchy. The Dayton RS180 had the cleanest midbass. The Usher sounded quite HiFi, smooth and overall good sounding. Did nothing wrong really, however it have limited usability for car use, the cone is very sensitive to moisture. The Rs125 is a very usable midrange driver, wouldn't hesitate using it in a 3-way front. A little disappointed in the DLS Iridium performance, other than great output in the lows it didn't really keep up with the others. It performed good in the midbass and shouldn't be used in other applications other than a dedicated midbass driver, well it's not that bad but it didn't perform as good as the others in the midrange. 

Our top three would be like this;

1. Seas L18 (Best overall performance, lacked a little output in the lows)

2. Exodus Anarchy (Best lows, decent performance in the midrange but might need a little EQ. Very usable in a 2-way.)

3. Dayton RS180 (Best midbass driver, midrange pretty equal to the Anarchy, had different shortcomings but in the end pretty good.)



Had a few other things I'd like to mention, but this is all for now. Lots of data to go through.

Here's a screenshot over the results.


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## Wesayso (Jul 20, 2010)

Fun test! Another great score for the Anarchy. Those that love Bass and can fit them know what to get (lol).
It must be the clean FR from the Seas that got it the victory.
Comparing your tests and these: The new Seas L18 versus the Dayton RS180
would put the Dayton and Seas very close. Good to see listening tests do matter!


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Never measured IMD, I suspect IM distortion have an impact on 'detail'. Dispersion pattern also matters...

Idk, not sure how it correlates to the listening test though.

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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I think FR contributes the most to what we percieve to be good sounding. Sound power is equally important and affects both tonality and staging. At higher volumes when the non-linear distortion increases it will most likely play a major role in tonality as well.

The question is, is this true in a car? I mean, the FR is gonna be messed up anyway, is it important for it be be flat? Or is the non-linear distortion more important sine we'll most likely be playing louder than in a home audio environment.

I should also add that, not all drivers liked the "IB" configuration. Bass performance would be far better in a vented box for example (for some drivers). Since excursion would be lower, distortion induced by the excursion would also be less. I tried to simulate a car door in this example, that's why I did it this way.

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## NonSenCe (Jun 4, 2011)

So, which pair is finding its way to your car? (just guessing as the DLS was from your current install right? and it got beaten by others, so is the Seas getting the nod now?) and ofcourse which are for sale (and for what price?)


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

NonSenCe said:


> So, which pair is finding its way to your car? (just guessing as the DLS was from your current install right? and it got beaten by others, so is the Seas getting the nod now?) and ofcourse which are for sale (and for what price?)


Using both the DLS and the Seas as dedicated mids in my build. Not using the Usher/Exodus mids though. You can PM me if you're interested in some of them.

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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Looks like the Dayton rs180 strikes again. Great driver for the price. I have a modded set that plays up to 14khz...if I could only get those 7"ers on axis. Lol


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Golden Ear said:


> I have a modded set that plays up to 14khz...


Say what?


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

Wrong choice of words, sorry. They were custom made


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

As to the RS 125s, how do you suppose they would do in an a-pillar? You mention that they performed well off-axis and my sail panels would fit these "small" 5's fairly easily. I would most likely pass them from 300 up? Was the main weakness in your test in the true midBASS area? Thoughts?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Lorin said:


> As to the RS 125s, how do you suppose they would do in an a-pillar? You mention that they performed well off-axis and my sail panels would fit these "small" 5's fairly easily. I would most likely pass them from 300 up? Was the main weakness in your test in the true midBASS area? Thoughts?


These are like a normal 4" driver. We all thought it was a great midrange driver, very usable from 250Hz and up. The upper range is great, almost qualify as a fullrange driver. 

Yes, the main weakness was in the bass/midbass area 

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