# Were "cheater amps" basically just an old school thing?



## Beatbox

Were "cheater amps" basically just an old school thing?

Back in the day I remember the getting Rockford punch amps that were listed as 60 watts for a punch 60 ect...

They came with an actual spec sheet that showed them putting out much more.

Was that just an old school thing or did that carry over to any newer manufacturers also

How can you tell if you have a cheater amp

Is there a list of cheater amps out there somewhere?


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## ATOMICTECH62

That particular amp is not really considered a cheater amp,just under rated.

The so called cheater amps are are usually high current (1-.001 ohm) and rated at only a few (1-100) watts but put out 2,3,4,5-100 times rated power.

To answer your question,yes,they are old school only.Since they changed the rules at SPL contests there is no need for them anymore.


The Orion Concept 97.3 is a perfect example.
2watts x 2 @ 4ohm but can do over 1000 @ .007ohm.

Back in the day using this amp would allow you to compete in the 1-25 watt class but really do 1K plus.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ssion/131080-orion-concept-97-3-amp-info.html


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## SHAGGS

Wasn't there a little Morris Minor or Mini Cooper, that ran those, in that loop hole.
It was painted to look like a turtle, and had 8 15's or something ridiculous.
I remember seeing it in a CA&E, but it was just a pic from a comp, of the outside and a description.


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## SkizeR

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> That particular amp is not really considered a cheater amp,just under rated.
> 
> The so called cheater amps are are usually high current (1-.001 ohm) and rated at only a few (1-100) watts but put out 2,3,4,5-100 times rated power.
> 
> To answer your question,yes,they are old school only.Since they changed the rules at SPL contests there is no need for them anymore.
> 
> 
> The Orion Concept 97.3 is a perfect example.
> 2watts x 2 @ 4ohm but can do over 1000 @ .007ohm.
> 
> Back in the day using this amp would allow you to compete in the 1-25 watt class but really do 1K plus.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ssion/131080-orion-concept-97-3-amp-info.html


these were stable to .007 ohms?!


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## ATOMICTECH62

Well,actually it was rated at .0078 ohms,whatever that means.

But,yeah!


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## Souldrop

Slightly off topic what's the coolest/neatest amp you have ever seen atomic?

Also cheater amps are still fun to tell unknowledgeable people that your using a 10W amp to power your subs. Only reason I would use one. Of course then Zuki would work as they severely underrate their amps.


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## SkizeR

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> Well,actually it was rated at .0078 ohms,whatever that means.
> 
> But,yeah!


Jesus H ****ing Chris...


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## Alrojoca

Wasn't in 2006 when the CEA changed things and was created for new standards, and everyone started to give specs at 1% distortion, while before same power ratings were given by some manufacturers at 0.0X %? 

Now is also 12.6 v vs 14.4 misleading consumers 

Making some of the older amps way under rated.


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## vwdave

Many old school amps were rated at 12.6 volts, some gave ratings at both 12.6 and 14.4 volts (Phoenix gold comes to mind). I loved the cheaters...MTX had a good one in their thunder series, 225HO that put out like 1000rms at .5 ohm and was rated 25 x 2 at 4 ohms and 12.6 volts.

My favorite amps are rated at 150x2 at 4 ohms at 12.6v, but 1000 x 1 at 4 or 1 ohm at 13.8 volts. It's not considered a cheater though. I'd argue that though since my "300 watt amp" is pretty damn beefy. They have been said to put out around 1200-1400 at 14.4 volts.


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## Phil Indeblanc

Taramps comes to mind that still rates at 12.6v, and still doing .01% THD with lots of power less than 1 ohm with +200 dampfactor.

I was hoping to get my hands on a 4ch, but its not straight forward to buy direct from Brazil. Buying here the prices are 50% more.


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## LBaudio

Back in the day competition groups were formed based on amplifier power, so that is why some amps were called cheating amps...they delivered a lot more power than rated.... today such amps would specify a lot more power than they used to in mid 90's....today standards are totally different - more is more...lol


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## sirbOOm

Today the cheater amps are just the regular amps and the garbage amps that often couldn't possibly do their rated power (i.e., Lanzar, BOSS, etc.) are the "cheat you out of your money" amps. Do I hear an AAAAMEN?!


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## Buickmike

So is there a list of grossly underrated amps out there that work well at low ohms? The Orion 225HCCA comes to mind. I had no problem running my Hifonics Cupid VII in tri mode with a 4 ohm sub bridged and 2 sets of components run in parallel. It got hot, but never died. An external cap seemed to help clean up the mids / highs when run like that.
My Lanzar Optidrive 100 will push a pair of 4 ohm subs in parallel bridged hard.


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## Phil Indeblanc

Amen!
You just can't get them in the commercialized world of marketing BS. Even Orion, all these brands are riding on their reputation over a decade ago.
Everything is rated for 2 or less ohm at 14v and that the numbers they market. They market everything to the BOOOOOM sound and crowd. Why not run your mids and highs at 4 ohm?

Taramp's amplifiers, I've hear to be very impressive and very well priced. They rate things at 12.6v, and give a breakdown with dampening factor, etc. Same with Stetsom amps.


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## Brian_smith06

Us amps comes to mind.


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## Phil Indeblanc

I have heard good things on those US Amps too. But varies model to model.
I think they are designed from ZED/?

I have mentioned Taramps a few times in a couple threads, it amazes me how others in the industry hear have not worked with them. 
I was hoping to hear on how to buy them. But no dice.


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## LBaudio

sirbOOm said:


> Today the cheater amps are just the regular amps and the garbage amps that often couldn't possibly do their rated power (i.e., Lanzar, BOSS, etc.) are the "cheat you out of your money" amps. Do I hear an AAAAMEN?!


AAAAMEN,

unfortunately, nowadays there are cheater amps but in opposite manner of old school cheater amps


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## Phil Indeblanc

Just that now cheater amps means quality power. maybe sometimes larger, maybe less efficient, but able to dig deep.


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## thehatedguy

There was...I forget the guy's name that owned it.



SHAGGS said:


> Wasn't there a little Morris Minor or Mini Cooper, that ran those, in that loop hole.
> It was painted to look like a turtle, and had 8 15's or something ridiculous.
> I remember seeing it in a CA&E, but it was just a pic from a comp, of the outside and a description.


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## thehatedguy

Linear Power HV line was the other ultimate cheater amps...the 2.2 was rated at 12.5 watts a channel and the 4.1 was rated at 75 watts. I ran a 2.2, 2 3.2s, and a 4.1 for a whopping "200" watts that was more like 1500 watts of power when I competed in IASCA Street Expert 1-600.


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## Phil Indeblanc

Linear Power was good stuff!


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## SQ Audi

I am thinking the Adcom amps. I remember carrying them and the rep telling us they were "any ohm" stable. Lowest I had seen them was 0.25ohm.


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## sirbOOm

I really want to try Taramps but my goodness is their website confusing.


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## thehatedguy

I ran one 1/8th ohm bridged since the manual said they were any ohm stable.



SQ Audi said:


> I am thinking the Adcom amps. I remember carrying them and the rep telling us they were "any ohm" stable. Lowest I had seen them was 0.25ohm.


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## SQ Audi

thehatedguy said:


> I ran one 1/8th ohm bridged since the manual said they were any ohm stable.


I would love to find me 3 of them. Two 4 ch and a mono or 2 chan.


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## thehatedguy

Yeah me too...one of few amps from back in the day that I have missed. I miss those Adcoms more than the trio of 225HCCAs that I had, the HiFonics Titan, and the Autotek 9050...all of those were "cheater" amps that did the low impedance thang pretty good.


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## Brian_smith06

I miss my old us 600x. been trying to get a trio of those if I could just sell my current amps


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## 1styearsi

Were "cheater amps" basically just an old school thing?

the simple answer is YES....


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## thehatedguy

Yeap went a way when every car audio sanctioning body stopped using power classes.


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## ATOMICTECH62

Yeah,back in the day 20+ years ago every amp manufacturer had a line of high current cheater amps.

Remember the Kicker version of there ZR1000 that was rated at 50x2,it was the HC100 or something.

Those amps did about 1500 on the bench at .25 ohm.


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## EAllen

Definitely don't need a cheater amp anymore without power classes. 

Back in 03 I ran the Kicker XS100 in 0-150 class. Rated at 50x2 and put out more than 1100 bridged at 1 ohm.


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## 63flip

Here's a true cheater amp. Lanzar Opti 50c. Rated at 25w x 2. At 1/2 ohm this amp puts out over 800w.


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## bigdwiz

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> That particular amp is not really considered a cheater amp,just under rated.
> 
> The so called cheater amps are are usually high current (1-.001 ohm) and rated at only a few (1-100) watts but put out 2,3,4,5-100 times rated power.
> 
> To answer your question,yes,they are old school only.Since they changed the rules at SPL contests there is no need for them anymore.
> 
> 
> The Orion Concept 97.3 is a perfect example.
> 2watts x 2 @ 4ohm but can do over 1000 @ .007ohm.
> 
> Back in the day using this amp would allow you to compete in the 1-25 watt class but really do 1K plus.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ssion/131080-orion-concept-97-3-amp-info.html



The Orion Concept 97.3 was rated at 0.5w/ch at 4 ohms and stable down to some crazy hundredth of an ohm load. It was all a LIE! Orion did this because they started the cheater phase with the original 225 HCCA and after competing against manufacturers such as US Amps with the VLX-25 (rated 12.5x2 at 4 ohms, yet did around 600W at 1/2 ohm mono), they decided it was time to change how the competition classes were divided.

The 97.3 was an XTR-2250 in a different heatsink. I've had several of these over the years and recently tested one and it did very close to what the XTR-2250 did.

PLEASE don't run an Orion Concept 97.3 at less than 4 ohms bridged or 2 ohms stereo. It will not last long.

My measured ratings were approx (using D'Amore Engineering AD-1 Amp Dyno, 1kHz tone, 14V input, 1% THD):

260w/ch at 4 ohms
460w/ch at 2 ohms
920w bridged at 4 ohms

I'll post the Concept 97.3 video in the upcoming weeks.


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## [email protected]

bigdwiz said:


> The Orion Concept 97.3 was rated at 0.5w/ch at 4 ohms and stable down to some crazy hundredth of an ohm load. It was all a LIE! Orion did this because they started the cheater phase with the original 225 HCCA and after competing against manufacturers such as US Amps with the VLX-25 (rated 12.5x2 at 4 ohms, yet did around 600W at 1/2 ohm mono), they decided it was time to change how the competition classes were divided.
> 
> The 97.3 was an XTR-2250 in a different heatsink. I've had several of these over the years and recently tested one and it did very close to what the XTR-2250 did.
> 
> PLEASE don't run an Orion Concept 97.3 at less than 4 ohms bridged or 2 ohms stereo. It will not last long.
> 
> My measured ratings were approx (using D'Amore Engineering AD-1 Amp Dyno, 1kHz tone, 14V input, 1% THD):
> 
> 260w/ch at 4 ohms
> 460w/ch at 2 ohms
> 920w bridged at 4 ohms
> 
> I'll post the Concept 97.3 video in the upcoming weeks.



Whats the AD-1 using to put a load on the amps?


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## ATOMICTECH62

There was another amp rated at .25 watts per channel but could do 1000 when bridged.
I think it might have been a Soundstream but Im not sure.


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## bigdwiz

[email protected] said:


> Whats the AD-1 using to put a load on the amps?


Resistive load banks built into the unit. See details here:

D'Amore Engineering AD-1


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## 1styearsi

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> There was another amp rated at .25 watts per channel but could do 1000 when bridged.
> I think it might have been a Soundstream but Im not sure.


THIS IS TOTALLY OFF TOPIC
bigdwix is the O/S man he has a true passion for O/S amps.the amp dyno ia high dollar like thousands http://www.wccaraudio.com/smd-products/smd-tools/smd-amplifier-dyno.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LwkGxFV7-w
the reference was a "lower" line but did better than the highdollar 5.0 i had a SS 10.0 and a 1000sx 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrMdf87Awmc
it seems like OLD rockford don't get much love here but they NEVER under perform on the dyno


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## 63flip

1styearsi said:


> THIS IS TOTALLY OFF TOPIC
> bigdwix is the O/S man he has a true passion for O/S amps.the amp dyno ia high dollar like thousands SMD Amplifier Dyno - SMD Tools - SMD Products
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LwkGxFV7-w
> the reference was a "lower" line but did better than the highdollar 5.0 i had a SS 10.0 and a 1000sx
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrMdf87Awmc
> it seems like OLD rockford don't get much love here but they NEVER under perform on the dyno



Most of the old Rockfords were just way under rated. Bigdwiz has a video of a 200 DSM on the dyno and if I remember right it put out over 900 watts at 2ohm mono. 
I believe some of the Rockford Power series amps were true cheaters. Like the 50m.
A few of the other true cheaters I can think of off the top of my head are Kicker xs100, Crossfire 15hc & 30hc, PPI Pro Mos, Earthquake had a HC, Crunch 50hc (I think). I know there's a bunch more I can't think of.


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## Guy

Phil Indeblanc said:


> I have heard good things on those US Amps too. But varies model to model.
> I think they are designed from ZED/?
> .


You are probably thinking of US Acoustics. The early models were designed and built by Zed. 
USAmps was a different company, the amps were designed and built in Florida back then.


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## Guy

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> There was another amp rated at .25 watts per channel but could do 1000 when bridged.
> I think it might have been a Soundstream but Im not sure.



The Soundstream Rubicon Class A 5.2 was rated at 1/4 wpc @4 ohms stereo and 500 watts @2 ohms bridged. The 10.2 was rated at 25 wpc @4 ohms stereo and 1000 watts at 1 ohm bridged. They weren't actually underrated as the amps used switching circuitry to measure at the rated wattages based on the load. At 4 ohms stereo you can barely hear any output from the 5.2s. I have a pair of them in my car bridged at 4 ohms which are more than enough for a set of 8" Dyns, and a 10.2 bridged at 2 ohms driving a single sub.


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## Guy

My partner's work in an Audi S8


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## n2deep3d

My old Soundstream class a 3.0s were rated at 12.5 watts per channel. Did 140 db with 2 of them and 2 spl12s


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## omnibus

I always wanted to take a large, generic amp housing like Boss and place a modern high powered amp's guts inside just to troll people....hey check out my Boss amp man".
Then take some Sundown subs or something and put a Pyle Logo on the cap. Let them chuckle for a moment then fire it up and watch their faces drop.

Now that's some cheating. I guess the main issue would be thermally greasing the mfets to the heatsink, not even sure if it's possible.


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## cajunner

omnibus said:


> I always wanted to take a large, generic amp housing like Boss and place a modern high powered amp's guts inside just to troll people....hey check out my Boss amp man".
> Then take some Sundown subs or something and put a Pyle Logo on the cap. Let them chuckle for a moment then fire it up and watch their faces drop.
> 
> Now that's some cheating. I guess the main issue would be thermally greasing the mfets to the heatsink, not even sure if it's possible.


you could fit the leviathan guts into a mid sized, "4000 Watts Maximum Power" chassis, and a pair of Biketronics 4180 into a little Power Acoustic Plasma Sphere amp, that would rock...

might cost a bit, though.

"hey look at the plasma sphere, that's where it gets it's power"


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## ghostmechanic

Don't forget the Earthquake 40 UHC Gold. It was rated at 40 RMS x 1 @ 4 ohms 600 @ 2 ohms or 1200 @ 1 ohm


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## PPI_GUY

I know this is an old thread but, had to put in my .02 cents. Many old school "cheater" amps earned their reputations based on a lot urban legends and downright myths. Like the Orion 97.3 and the myth that is was stable to .00000000000078 ohm or whatever. Guys, that's a dead short. Nothing more than a marketing ploy by Orion. 
The real truth is that the now legendary 1st gen Orion HCCA amps were extremely susceptible to low voltage. They worked fine until they saw voltages under 11.5 or 12 volts. Then, the power supplies went poof! Voltage not a problem you say? You have to remember this was in the late 80's when stock alternators only made around 60 amps at 12.5 volts output. This is the exact reason that aftermarket manufacturers (PG, Stinger, etc.) of alternators, isolators, power distribution, etc.) came into existence.

So-called "cheater" amps did very well when you added high output alternators, extra batteries and good wiring to handle the extra juice. But, the average guy would usually blow a ton of money on amps like a HCCA 250 and then have nothing left over to upgrade his electrical system so he could actually use it. 
And don't forget that all major name brand amps were extremely expensive by today's comparisons. Today, you can buy a 1000 watt amp that's about 12" in length for $200. 
Back in the days of cheater amps, it took multiple amps costing $600-$700 each to get to power levels like that! 

Having said all that, if you can get your hands on a few recapped old school cheater amps, I'd advise you do so. Then, run the crap out of them! Many were in fact underrated and that translates into headroom. Just don't run them at insanely low resistance and they'll be just fine.


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## vinman

PPI_GUY said:


> You have to remember this was in the late 80's when stock alternators only made around 60 amps at 12.5 volts output. This is the exact reason that aftermarket manufacturers (PG, Stinger, etc.) of alternators, isolators, power distribution, etc.) came into existence.
> 
> So-called "cheater" amps did very well when you added high output alternators, extra batteries and good wiring to handle the extra juice. But, the average guy would usually blow a ton of money on amps like a HCCA 250 and then have nothing left over to upgrade his electrical system so he could actually use it.
> 
> Having said all that, if you can get your hands on a few recapped old school cheater amps, I'd advise you do so. Then, run the crap out of them! Many were in fact underrated and that translates into headroom. Just don't run them at insanely low resistance and they'll be just fine.



Being an average guy .... In '87 I installed my first batch of HCCA's in my '82 chevy van 
I used a BNIB 120 amp "Limousine" alternator that managed half of it's amps at idle speed (6-700 RPM) which at the time cost me $200 

MBR70 + 2 optima reds , and it all still runs fine today 

Tony Villanti an Orion Rep , istaller and Iasca competitor in Toronto was the key person whose brain I picked at various events , on how to do my install and where to get my amps at cost 

Tony had an Orion Demo van with a dozen HCCAs that went through a few different HCCA installs

My HCCA-NT amps will need recapping eventually but have never been pushed or run lower then ~ 2 ohms 

Cheers ........ Vin


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## TaylorFade

Cheater amps are alive and well.

USACi was still using 4 ohm ratings for their SPL power classes up until finals of this year.

The popular "500w" @ 4 ohm amp does ~ 6,000w useable wired for fire on 12v.


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