# 2007 R56 MINI cooper build



## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

The car:
2007 base MINI (heated seats are about the only option this thing has)
R55 Clubman S 5-spoke 17" wheels
Cooper S front and rear brakes
Cooper S front and rear struts and sway bars with H&R springs

The system:
Alpine ida headunit
Alpine 6-disc changer
Alpine PDX 4.150 Amp
Alpine imprint module
Dynaudio MW 163gt 2-ways
Tang Band 6x9 subwoofers

Most of the early build will be focused on the enclosures for the subwoofers. I have this crazy idea of keeping all my (extremely limited) interior space functional but having respectable subbass output as well. I entertained several different possible configurations but even a well-done false floor job would take up too much space for my needs. 

I settled on the tang band 6x9 subwoofers and modeling them in winisd I figured out two of these, in roughly .5 sqft, tuned low and bridged off the rear channels on my pdx 4.150 would produce as much bass everywhere as my Alpine type-R 12 does in its sealed enclosure at 600w rms. That's plenty of bass for me, especially in this tiny car, but fabricating an effective prorted enclusure behind the interior trim panels would be incredibly difficult. BUT, that's the plan anyway.

Stay tuned...


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Here is a picture of the body cavity behind the factory 6x9 openings, note the hard plastic floor.









BMW did a pretty decent job of sealing things up behind the factory woofers and helping to isolate road noise in the process. Unfortunately, all that has to go to open up some volume for the enclosure. With the plastic floor installed I'm estimating a conservatively low .35 sqft immediately behind the woofer, not accounting for the funky shaped chasms running everywhere which probably amount to ~0.05 sqft if I had to guess. Knocking the plastic floor out bought me at least a solid 0.1 sqft but also opened up more chasms and exposed some large holes in the unibody that will need to be sealed.

Here's a pic with the floor knocked out:









And these are the pieces that were removed from one side:









This whole install is going to be very ghetto and very dirty but very functional and stealth. After I butchered up the body cavities, I scrubbed everything down, picked off as much foam as I could and starting jamming duct sealer into every chasm, crevice and spot weld line on the inside of the soon-to-be enclosure. Used about three bricks in one side. Yup. The plan is to seal everything up as best as possible before applying any second skin cld layers to finish and reinforce everything.


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## sinister-kustoms (Jul 22, 2009)

Interesting concept! Tuned in for more!


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## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

This is exactly what I will need to do for my R53. Subscribed.

What are you going to use to form your enclosure?


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Thanks guys! The biggest problem I've encountered is symmetry. The left side of the vehicle has the fuel door/cup, filler neck and gas cap taking up what would otherwise be several tenths of square footage and a nice passageway for the port, over the wheel well. The passenger side is gravy but I'm going to finish the tougher side first and try to duplicate its dimensions on the other side. I'm able to cram 1/16 wall 2" inner diameter port tubing between the filler cup and body but I need to be able to run a healthy length to vent into the cabin. I found some flexible 2" id pvc at an aquarium supply place that I think will fit with a little heat and "clearancing". 

The xmax on these subs are pretty tame so I'm not going crazy reinforcing the enclosure. Most of the enclosure walls will be made up of the vehicle's body panels and unibody. I'm filling some of the larger gaps with 1/2" mdf, cut to fit as snuggly as possible in the larger gap that exists over the wheel well. Liberal amounts of duct seal and possibly a bit of expanding foam will be used as well. Again, the goal is to have the thing air-tight before applying 2-3 layers of alluminum-backed cld to cover everything and form a properly air-tight and, hopefully, non-resonant enclosure space. I'll be fixing a 1/2" mdf baffle with an integrated terminal cup to the factory speaker location to better reinforce the woofer area.

I plan to pack about 0.5 lb polyfill in each side as well, using some fruit-bags (the plastic nets that bulk oranges, avacadoes, etc. come in) as a barrier spaced a few inches from the port to keep the port from clogging or blowing polyfill out the back.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Spent a little time with the enclosures today. I cut a few swatches of mdf to match the profile of the wheel well, covered them in duct seal and stuck em in there good. There's still a large gap near the top but I have another piece which will fill that area up nicely and accept the port flare (I'm using a set of presicion port 2" flares for each side).

finished sealing the lower backside:









I found out the tubing I ordered won't be in until Monday, so I've put the enclosures on hold in the meanwhile. Started digging into the dash, removed the factory radio and climate control stuff, and separated the screen and upper control section that fits into the tach so I don't have to use the hideous blanks that came with my install kit. You can see the tach and the upper radio section sitting on the dash. It comes apart very easily, just release one clip and the ribbon cable and viola.









More to come. Tomorrow I'll be pulling some stuff out of my jetta in preparation for this weekend when I'll be installing all the electronics in the mini.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

If you don't know the exact enclosure volumes I would HIGHLY suggest you don't go vented.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I've read that a number of places but I don't quite understand why. Manipulating the box volume and port lengths in winisd consistently shows 2.5db+ over sealed, even in the worst case scenario. Cone excursion can be kept in check with bandpass filtering. Between the flared ports and the already reasonable calculated straight-port velocities, chuffing won't be a factor.

So long as the enclosure is sealed up tight - which it will be - I don't see how varying volume and port length will result in anything more than increased output. The length of tubing required to effectively vent into the passenger cabin will leave the woofers tuned really low, like mid 20s, which means they should operate essentially as a sealed enclosure but with more output within an octave of the tuning frequency. 

When it comes down to it, I'm doing the port project because it's a project. If it sounds like **** then I'm out like $30 and I go sealed. If it works out though, I win big. Please let me know if I'm missing something. Is there some intangible to running a box tuned too low?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

It's simple. Unless you know the enclosure volume you won't have a clue what the enclosure is tuned to or if they're tuned the same.


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

Heterosapian said:


> I've read that a number of places but I don't quite understand why. Manipulating the box volume and port lengths in winisd consistently shows 2.5db+ over sealed, even in the worst case scenario. Cone excursion can be kept in check with bandpass filtering. Between the flared ports and the already reasonable calculated straight-port velocities, chuffing won't be a factor.
> 
> So long as the enclosure is sealed up tight - which it will be - I don't see how varying volume and port length will result in anything more than increased output. The length of tubing required to effectively vent into the passenger cabin will leave the woofers tuned really low, like mid 20s, which means they should operate essentially as a sealed enclosure but with more output within an octave of the tuning frequency.
> 
> When it comes down to it, I'm doing the port project because it's a project. If it sounds like **** then I'm out like $30 and I go sealed. If it works out though, I win big. Please let me know if I'm missing something. Is there some intangible to running a box tuned too low?



Those enclosures look pretty small, and being off by a couple inches on your port length or a couple tenths of a cubic feet in the enclosure could dramatically change your tuning frequency. Also of note is that vented enclosures absolutely have to be sealed up and ridged. It looks like you're on your way to that, but sealed will be a lot more forgiving.

That being said I would still go for it.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> It's simple. Unless you know the enclosure volume you won't have a clue what the enclosure is tuned to or if they're tuned the same.


I'll concede that 100%. The symmetry issue is especially disconcerting. However, when modeling different enclosures, the lowest tune (largest possible volume, longest port) is around 24 with the opposite end of the spectrum being right around 30. Everything in that 24-30 range still beats the pants off sealed below 70 or so Hz. While tuning to the mid 20s is beyond excessive - and definitely far from ideal for spl - it should help compensate for some low end that the 6x9 drivers are certain to lack. 

What I mean to say is that I'd be happy with anything in the calculated ranges I'm expecting. If I miss the "ideal" tuning frequency, well, that just comes with the territory. Ideal would be a 15" ported at 22 Hz but compromises abound. If I can get the opposite side enclosure super close in terms of volume, then some polyfill and conservative gain settings should keep things from blowing up or sounding too off.

I welcome any and all input on this topic though. Please, feel free to model the drivers yourself and let me know your thoughts. It's a tang band W69-1042J. Enclosure volume will range from .45-.6 sqft. Port length 16-24 inches AT 2" ID. RMS wattage 75-150 depending on whether or not I go mono/bridged.

Resonant Frequency (Fs) 35 Hz 
DC Resistance (Re) 6.5 ohms 
Voice Coil Inductance (Le) 0.91 mH 
Mechanical Q (Qms) 3.93 
Electromagnetic Q (Qes) 0.40 
Total Q (Qts) 0.35 
Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas) 1.07 ft.³ 
Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms) 0.42 mm/N 
BL Product (BL) 13.27 Tm 
Moving Mass Of Diaphragm (Mmd) 49.89 
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 7.3 mm


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## Athletestar123 (Mar 12, 2013)

NICEEE !


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Heterosapian said:


> I'll concede that 100%. The symmetry issue is especially disconcerting. However, when modeling different enclosures, the lowest tune (largest possible volume, longest port) is around 24 with the opposite end of the spectrum being right around 30. Everything in that 24-30 range still beats the pants off sealed below 70 or so Hz. While tuning to the mid 20s is beyond excessive - and definitely far from ideal for spl - it should help compensate for some low end that the 6x9 drivers are certain to lack.
> 
> What I mean to say is that I'd be happy with anything in the calculated ranges I'm expecting. If I miss the "ideal" tuning frequency, well, that just comes with the territory. Ideal would be a 15" ported at 22 Hz but compromises abound. If I can get the opposite side enclosure super close in terms of volume, then some polyfill and conservative gain settings should keep things from blowing up or sounding too off.
> 
> ...


It's not that you'll miss the "ideal" frequency, it's that they'll be tuned differently and you'll have cancellation. If that happens you'll end up with LESS bass.


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## ptomaine1 (Jan 22, 2013)

Thanks for posting pics of the cavity. I haven't found anyone out there that's posted a clear picture of it. Like astrochex I've been looking to do some work to my R53. I'll be on a tight schedule so I won't have much time to open it up and discover. Subscribed


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

ptomaine1 said:


> Thanks for posting pics of the cavity. I haven't found anyone out there that's posted a clear picture of it. Like astrochex I've been looking to do some work to my R53. I'll be on a tight schedule so I won't have much time to open it up and discover. Subscribed


This is a 56. I'm not sure how different it well be on the 53 but I imagine not much. If you're short on time I would seal it up with just a bunch if aluminum backed cld. You could bang that out in an afternoon pretty comfortably.

Quality_sound, I hadn't considered cancellation issues. I imagine some TA would address some of that but if I run mono that's not an option.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Not cancellation because of location, though a valid concern, but cancellation because of the differences in frequency response of enclosures that are tuned differently.


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## ptomaine1 (Jan 22, 2013)

I figured there wouldn't be much of a difference between the 53 & 56, well probably the length of that panel. Also, some info. is better than no info. I always planned on using cld to seal as much as possible but wanted to know if I could/would have to make some mdf plates. I'll also be cutting into the panel since I plan on using 8s.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Well, I went and measured the left rear quarter panel of an R56 and R53 and they're virtually identcle. Whether or not they're internally dissimilar is anyones guess, but you're probably good to go. Get one of the panels off and look at your spot weld lines. I wouldn't hesitate to cut or fold back some of the internal skin but I'd advise against cutting through the spot welded sections. I measured about 7" across the center without interfering with the spot welds, which should be plenty for most 8" woofer baskets if you're using a baffle - which is the only way to seal it up given the 9" dimension in the 6x9 hole, never mind rigidity. 

The biggest reason I didn't go with an 8 is so much of the woofer will be firing directly into the side panel and the surround on anything with a respectable xmax will almost certainly make contact. One alternative that I considered was making a baffle, cutting it in half so that it would squeeze into the body cavity, then fixing the two halves on the inside. I measured 3/4" from the panel to the factory woofer surrounded, which isn't enough for a baffle and some decent xmax but becomes enough if you run the baffle on the inside. I think my 6x9s will just clear with a 1/2" baffle, though I'll probably space the panel out a few mm just in case. 

Good luck!


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Subb'd, glad to see another Mini build on Diyma.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

cool here to see how this turns out!

Good Luck!


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## MiniR53 (Jan 13, 2013)

Haha! YES! I was just looking for someone that might have done this already in their MINI. I've a 2005 MCS and I am thinking about throwing some 8" subs in the same spot as you. Cant wait to see how yours turns out.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Pulled all the gear out of my Jetta project today. The Jetta is going to have a simple silver flute midbass, tang band full range set-up with my alpine type-r 12 in a sealed enclosure.

No pictures today. I didn't do anything worth looking at anyway.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> Not cancellation because of location, though a valid concern, but cancellation because of the differences in frequency response of enclosures that are tuned differently.


Hmmmm, do you think it could result in such a dramatic loss in spl? A 60Hz wave is still close to 20 feet long and neither the port nor the woofer will have more than 4 feet of space to travel before reflecting. How severe are moderate differences in frequency responses likely to be? I mean, I'd never hesitate to cross a midbass woofer at 60Hz if it could take it. Certainly not because I'd be worried about less bass. Assuming the differences in the final tuning frequencies is severe enough to cause cancellation, how would this be different from having overlapping crossover points between mid and sub bass drivers?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

It could be fairly drastic or it might not be an issue at all. No one can say for sure but the possibility is certainly there.


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

If you have a way to do impedance sweep measurements you could run one on each side, find the one with the higher impedance spike (that will be the one that's tuned higher), and add stuff to the other side to reduce volume until your impedance peaks match. If you have a laptop with LIMP (free) you can build an impedance jig for under $5.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

SPLEclipse said:


> If you have a way to do impedance sweep measurements you could run one on each side, find the one with the higher impedance spike (that will be the one that's tuned higher), and add stuff to the other side to reduce volume until your impedance peaks match. If you have a laptop with LIMP (free) you can build an impedance jig for under $5.


Sweet! That would be outstanding! I figured doing an impedance measurement would be the best route; probably fill the base with rubber mulch until I get them matched up. I can't justify a dayton analyzer right now but can certainly scrounge up a few bucks for some diy goodness. Do you have any links for an impedance jig? Thanks.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Nevermind, I found some great info on how to build them. Thanks again!


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

How to test T/S easy and cheap - Car Audio Classifieds

Here's a tutorial I did a while back on how to test TSPs, the measurement method would be the same, just with the speakers installed in the car, and you don't have to run multiple sweeps.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I didn't do anything today but some research. I've been contemplating trying to hide the factory radio behind the dash. Neil_J turned me on to a thread about an extended ribbon cable and I've just bought one.

AWM 20798 Ribbon Cable Same Side 0 50mm Pitch 32 Pin 380 mm 32pin 38 Cm | eBay

This should allow me to keep my clock and trip data computer in the factory location as well as retain the factory warning chime. 

Tomorrow I install the cabling and amplifier, try to find a place for my behemoth cd changer and disassemble the factory radio in preparation for its new home, buried in the dash.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Heterosapian said:


> I didn't do anything today but some research. I've been contemplating trying to hide the factory radio behind the dash. Neil_J turned me on to a thread about an extended ribbon cable and I've just bought one.


PM me if you have any questions about taking the dash apart, or electrical questions. That goes for the rest of your build as well.

Good luck!


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Holy hell, today was a tough one. I had planned on fitting the front speakers and installing the amplifier today but I managed, in three hours, to only finish one door. I spent most of my time measuring, cutting, test fitting and routing the wiring through that *&^%$ molex connector. It turned out prety decent though and the other side should only take an hour or so - if the cable routing goes a bit more smoothly.

I mounted the crossovers in the grab handle; insulated underneath by some rope caulk. The tweeters are mounted (for now) at a slight up and back angle using some heavy 1/8 inch plastic I had laying around. 










I love working with these dynaudio gt woofers. The mounting depth is identical to the factory woofers and the surround lines up almost perfectly with the opening in the door carrier. However, the bolt hole definitely don't line up so the left side is currently only secured through 1/8 inch plastic of the door carrier. Some time next week I'll hack up some 1/4" cutting boards to make a sturdier baffle and cover them with duct sealer. Deadening and sealing of the doors is probably weeks away though, at which time I'll run some resin in the channel where the speaker mounts to reinforce things a bit further.

I was able to grind off quite a bit of the door panel to make clearance for a baffle and some excursion. Doing this allows me to retain the factory grills, whose grill screen perfectly matches the woofer cone area.
edit: I should note for any non-mini people, the oem woofers in the front doors are technically 5.25" so the dyns fitting so nicely at 6.75" is outstanding.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I'm in the process of buying a house so the build has been sidelined; though not entirely. I bought a bunch of flexible pvc but the more I played with it, the less I liked the idea of running such a long port. After inspecting the rear where the port will pass, I decided to run a much more reasonable 9" port and vent it into the rear side cavity. This is not ideal but I think if anything, the cavity will lower the tuning frequency, if it has any effect at all.

I had cut some mdf in the shape of the awkward upper cavity area, but the port flare nearly fills the gap anyway. So, I think I'm running an mdf lower and then just packing a pound or so of duct seal around each flare, then adding the audio technix cld over top of everything. 

I also finished sealing up the large holes in the passenger side cavity, using some thick corrugated plasti-board and rope caulk, then stuffed the lower seem with closed cell foam. Tomorrow, I'll start applying some duct sealer over top of the foam and then start in on the cld layers.

Also this evening, I went to a walmart for the first time in at least a year and picked up some 3M super 77, cutting boards for the front woofer baffles, and some poly batting to line the enclosures. I hope I can get the woofers seeing .75 sqft with the added poly fill. That may be a stretch but these things should pound if it works out. Winisd has two of these in .75 sqft each, tuned from 30-40hz, hanging steady with a pair of ALpine R 12s in a sealed enclosure at 600w. There's no loss vs the Alpines until 30hz when the unfortunately necessary subsonic filter kicks in.

I'll get some pics up this weekend. I know that's what everyone really cares about.


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## Octave (Dec 12, 2010)

Neil_J said:


> PM me if you have any questions about taking the dash apart, or electrical questions. That goes for the rest of your build as well.
> 
> Good luck!



This guy here is the go to guru when it comes to the R56.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I finished the "rough sealing" of the subwoofer enclosures today. Tomorrow I'll line the enclosure interiors with a few layer of audio technix cld and possibly attach the baffles. If I have time I'll start in on the polyfill too, but things are hectic. My wife is due to give birth to our first child in four days so there are other things swirling about that limit the time I can spend on the project.

I ended up sticking with the precision ports vented into the rear body cavities. There's a good long run of empty space that expands away from the port exit like a horn, with a large crescent shaped opening at the end that will vent into the cabin. Note how tight the fit is between the fuel filler door cup and the port - that's the port comin at cha at the top left, and on the center-right side you can see part of the hole that leads to the interior. (Picture taken from the taillight location with the lens removed):









I didn't use either large port flare that comes with each port kit. Rather, I super-glued the provided 7" port tube and the inner port flare together and wedged them in. The port flare forms the rear upper wall of the enclosure, sealed 360 degrees with copious (gratuitous?) amounts of duct seal:









The right side didn't have a fuel door to contend with which made working on it easier but I had to get a little creative to duplicate the port angle and exit environment of the left side. I wrapped the outside of the port with thin foam to eliminate the possibility of any rattles and packed some closed cell foam beneath the tubing for additional support. Both ports received the same generous duct seal treatment; about 1.5 lbs just for the port flares:









I'm more optimistic now than ever before. I managed to plunge the ports to the same depth, seal the crevices around the body cavity and create a similar vent environment for both enclosures. They are remarkably symmetrical. I'm looking forward to getting them finished and doing some live impedance measurements to compare both sides. 

I have to say... today was a good day.


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

That looks great!


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I spent about an hour today applying one layer of audio technix 60 mil cld to the left side enclosure. It takes quite some time to get into all the crevices and make sure there's 100% coverage. I'll finish two layers in both sides and hopefully have the baffles and woofers mounted this week as well. 

Once the cld layers are in place, I'll coat the whole interior of the enclosure with a few coats of brush-on undercoating to ensure, beyond any doubt, that there are no leaks. The undercoating should provide a marginal increase in panel dampening as well.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Spent over an hour today lining the right side enclosure with a layer of cld. I've achieved 100% coverage and any further steps are probably unnecessary with regard to sealing against leaks. I'm a fan of overkill though and I'm sure the additional cld layers and undercoating will be welcome when I start throwing 150+ watts RMS at each side. I'm postponing the next layer of cld until thursday or friday. I've got more cld on the way and the new batch has a different backing color so I'll know I've gotten 100% coverage again. 

In the mean time I'll fab and install the woofer baffles. Cutting into the sheet metal will probably have to happen to accomodate the terminal cups. We're getting close.
-----
The next project is already brewing in the back of my mind. I'm thinking of fabbing a ported enclosure for under each front seat to house dedicated midbass drivers. I have a set of 6.5" silver flutes just collecting dust but I'd love to get two under each seat. Unfortunately, there are some pretty lofty technical hurdles to overcome, especially if I chose to run four woofers. Four silver flutes tuned to 60Hz, coupled with the little ported subs, should sound incredible. Winisd has them at like 118db from 80+Hz!

One thing at a time though. If I build some enclosures for under the front seats then I'll have to find a place to mount two amplifiers, rather than the one I planned to hide under the passenger seat for now. I'm thinking the glove box and the tool storage tray.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I measured out the glovebox and the amp won't fit. I'll be putting the amp in the pocket for jack and tire iron under the trunk floor. Unfortunately, there isn't enough space for two amps in that little space..
-----
I fabbed two baffles this evening and began test fitting one side. The baffles looked really pretty until I tried to cram the massive tang band baskets into them. The jig saw made it work though. I did have to cut and bend back some of the sheet metal surrounding the woofer and terminal cup to get them to fit. I used a reciprocating saw and cut several short cuts into the perimeter and then tapped them backwards with a hammer and chisel.

Here's the ragged cavities with some rope caulk in place, ready to receive the baffles:









The final product will have a considerable amount more duct seal and perhaps some silicone to secure it in place.

Eventually, after a bit more cutting and banging, I got the subs to fit. The baffles ae attached to the body with 1.5" self-tapping sheet metal screws. The bolts that hold the sub to the baffle run through the baffle and into the body panel as well. They're not going anywhere:









I'm REALLY hoping the panels fit back over top of the woofers when I'm finished. I anticipated everything being very tight but I didn't account for the additional 1/4" that the duct seal and rope caulk would add.
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My ribbon cable came in today so I'm going to pause the enclosures for a few days while I get the headunit and amplifier installed. Once my son is born (any day now) I'll have plenty of time to apply deadener and undercoating and masacre my body panels, but for the more complicated electrical work and dash reassembly I need to be sharp.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Today I installed the headunit, disassembled the factory radio and installed various pieces of it all over the dash. There was lots of cutting and cursing involved but after a few hours I ended up with this:









If you're not familiar with minis then you may not realize what functions are lost when the factory radio control module goes missing. The display goes dead or missing, you lose access to your trip data and economy figures (through the main display, they can still be accessed through the cluster) and if you ever need the vehicle reprogrammed, you'll have to reinstall the factory radio. Not to mention several ugly holes are left to fill in the speedometer once the display and controls go missing.

Of course, I put everything together and realized I hadn't connected the ipod cable to the rear of the headunit before assembly. This was a serious pain in the ass to install so I'm not looking forward to pulling everything out again.
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The next order of business is the cd changer. It's a great changer, intended for trunk mounting, but the aim of this project is to encroach on the little-itty-bitty interior space as little as possible. I'm going to try installing it in the storage compartment location above the glove box but it will be tight. Doing this will require more cutting of the dash and taking an air hammer to the dash frame. That dash frame is beefy too, probably 1/8 inch steel, so I may need to cut some grooves in it with a cut-off wheel before I start. I wish like hell I could just trim a bit of plastic but the changer is too deep. I haven't decided if the riak of blowing out the windshield is worth the cd changer location but I've kind of got tunnel vision now and I think it's going to happen. (the changer, hopefully not the broken windshield)
Here's the changer v. the hole it wants to reside:








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It occured to me that I haven't thrown up a picture of the car yet. I'm rather proud of its looks actually. She's pretty dirty right now but looks all right to me:


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Looking great...


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Neil_J said:


> Looking great...


Thanks man! 
-----
Today was pretty much planning and rewiring some stuff. Yesterday, I forgot to plug the ipod cable into the headunit and run the remote turn-on lead. That meant removing the headunit again to plug everything in. We're good now though. I don't anticipate pulling that damn headunit again any time soon. 

I scrapped the idea of massacring the dash to accommodate the cd changer. That would've ended badly; if not it would have required more time and effort than it's worth. I've decided to put the amp in the side of the trunk behind some body panels. This will block some of the hole that links the port to the interior but I think it'll be fine. I'll be mounting the cd changer in the jack/tool kit compartment. The secret compartment will be home to the imprint module and ipod. All this should mean I keep everything out of sight and sacrifice zero interior space or functionality.

Running the power cable today was remarkably easy. As were the ai-net, rca and ipod cables. If my son isn't born in the next few days then I should have the amp, door speakers and sub enclosures finished up this weekend. Really that'll be everything until I build the midbass enclosures.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I can't figure out how to capture a nice low res winisd screen shot to post but I thought this litle snippet would be instructive - and hopefully help convey why I'm so excited to finish those enclosures!

This is a comparison of the two tang bands in my ported body-cavity enclosures at 300w versus two alpine type R 12s sealed at 500w. Both have the same low pass filter settings and the tang bands have a sharp 4th order subsonic filter set just below the tuning frequency. They never exceed xmax at this power level. Granted, most people will be shoving a lot more than 500w RMS at a pair of 12s but it's instructive nonetheless. Considering there are probably more than a few fools running a pair of those off a "1000w" Pyramid amp, I'd say they're doing alright. The same graph is essentially generated when you juice a single type r 12 with 900 watts. It takes 900 watts for one of these to match my enclosures at 300w! The Tang Bands don't lose more than a decibel versus the two alpines sealed @ 500w until the subsonic kicks in around the mid 30 Hz region.









edit: Note: The cursor is at 55 Hz on the graph and the green lines are at 10Hz intervals on the low end. The yellow line is for the Alpines, the white's the Tang Band 6x9s


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Very little to report today. I routed the rca cables, ipod cable, ai-net cable and power supply for the imprint module into the secret compartment. They still need to find their way to the amp in the rear though. I had removed the compartment already so while it was out I put a 1.25" hole saw to the back corner, then reassembled everything. The imprint module fits pretty nicely though I may end up moving my ipod to the glovebox. The headunit and imprint are communicating nicely as well. 

Tomorrow will be a big day. My cld was delayed in shipping so I have no choice but to route all my cables, finish the door speaker install, install the amplifier and attach the left-side subwoofer baffle. It's a tall order but I think I can manage it. My wife is dieing to have my interior reassembled; we've putting putting all our "family miles" on her car for the passed few weeks.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Still working but I needed a break so here I am. So far today I finished the imprint wiring once and for all, running superfluous cables that I may eventually need. My secret compartment is overflowing so I moved the ipod to the glovebox. Here's what's stuffed in there now:









Also today, I removed the left side tweeter from the factory mid location and moved both tweeters to the dash in some custom tweeter pods. I've reinstalled the factory mids which will be used only for the door chime from now on. The tweeter pods turned out better than I exected. It was a messy process - and a long one at three hours total - but totally worth it. I wanted something different and I think I've achieved that.

















I used a pair of inexpensive 9" practice basballs from Walmart, some threaded lamp bolt deals and lots of hole saw and screwdriver/pick action. Not too bad for $8. In hindsight, I could have moved the left side tweeter back another 1/2" but there's almost zero adjustment once these things are finished. Mounting the pods asymmetrically allowed me to get the path length difference to 9" versus the 14-15" difference in the factory mid location. The passenger side is worse off of course. I also could have angled the tweeters slightly better to reduce reflections but they're damn close to as good as possible. The aiming was targeted towards reducing reflections so the left side is off axis a bit. 

Hopefully, I'll get the doors finished up today but I'm doubting that. Only a few hours left until other obligations take priority.


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## jayhawkblk (May 29, 2007)

Now how are you going to tie the baseball theme in to the rest of the build?


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Ok, so I only finished the left side door today after the last update. I'm relocating the crossovers into the passenger cabin, under the dash. I neglected to snap a picture with the door panel off but there wasn't much to see anyway. After removing the panel and woofer, I removed the crossover and wiring, reusing the line already run through the molex connector for the woofer. My cutting board baffles worked out nicely; just a few holes drilled and a pound of duct seal. Eventually, I'll pull the panels on both sides and remove the door carrier/window regulator for a thorough sound deaden and seal job but that is a ways off.  I need to get the amp up and running, install the right side door speaker and get the subwoofer enclosures finished, with the rest of my interior back together, before I even think about all that.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

jayhawkblk said:


> Now how are you going to tie the baseball theme in to the rest of the build?


I missed this yesterday. I don't think I'll integrate a baseball theme, I just liked the idea of doing something different and baseball is a big part of my life. I think most themes get overdone and end up super kitchy. Not that I expect to win any "maturest interior design" awards with baseballs on my dash but subtlety was the goal initially. It's a mini though; it's supposed to be fun. 

I've thought of finding some Louisville Slugger wood grain vinyl and wrapping some trim pieces in it. That would be pretty sweet and not overly obnoxious, especially if I could get the actual Louisville slugger emblem on one piece. A black interior and green exterior aren't particularly conducive to a baseball theme but I'm open to any ideas you all might have!


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## MiniR53 (Jan 13, 2013)

updates?


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

My son was born early Monday morning and my wife was having contractions from Saturday night on. Needless to say, after two more days in the hospital and a few getting used to having a baby in the house, I haven't had any time or energy to put into the mini. I'm actually going out to play with it for an hour or two right now and hopefully, having the next week off work, I'll be able to to put some time in every day and finish it up.


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## Kevin K (Feb 11, 2013)

Congratulations on the addition of the family. Hope they are doing well


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

Congrats on the addition to your family!


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

This is what I made earlier this week:









And today I simply ran the cabling for the right side door woofer through the molex connector and mounted the cutting board adapter plate/baffle I made last week. Lots of duct seal and tah-dah:








I'll mount the woofer next week, tomorrow I plan to apply the last of the cld for the subwoofer enclosures.


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## Miniboom (Jul 15, 2010)

Hey, congrats on the kid and the great build!

Love Tang Band. And kids. My girlfriend has our number two in the "oven", due early September!


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## edouble101 (Dec 9, 2010)

Congrats


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Wow, thanks everyone for the congratulations! I'm only a few days in but I'm starting to figure him out. I like being a dad.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Finished applying the second - and final - layer of cld to the enclosures today and a few swatches to the interior body panels adjacent to the enclosure. The adjacent body panels are pretty resonant and the ~30-40% coverage I applied today didn't do nearly as much as I'd hoped to cut down on that. 

After finishing the enclosure sealing I pulled out my cheapo decibel meter and compared the resonance of my body panel enclosures to the 3/4" mdf ported enclosure for my alpine 12. Basically I knocked until my knuckles hurt and measured the maximum volume transfer in the center of the enclosure. 

-The mdf enclosure measured 103.6 dbs. 
-The left side mini enclosure measured 104.1 dbs. 
-The right side measured 102.5 dbs. 

Of course, the larger volume of the mdf enclosure may be creating an echo chamber, but then again, the enclosure carpeting could be absorbing a fraction of each initial knock and reducing the transfer. While this is far from a controlled experiment - and I honestly don't know if it means a damn thing - it made me more confident in the performance potential of this craziness. 

Here we are, ready for some undercoating and a baffle:


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

A few updates today. I went out in search of brush on undercoating and couldn't find any. As I'm walking through Home Depot - the third store I visited - with a few things of plastidip in hand, I came accross some roof sealant stuff that I thought just might work. Well, I'm super happy with it! It's essentially unthinned ruberized undercoating and is made by a company called Henry's. It's so thick that even in the 80 degree sun I was unable to pour it from the can. A gallon only cost $20 and I used about 1/3 of it between both enclosures.









I started with a bondo trowell but quickly abandoned that method for some good old fashioned finger painting. This stuff is nasty but the smell isn't too intense. Hopefully it will cure in the next few days so I can seal the enclosures up. 









While the roof sealant was good and tacky, I applied 1/4 lb of poly batting to each enclosure. I planned on 1 lb/ft^3 but Jesus, that's a lot of poly fill! I didn't realize how quickly they would fill up and am now regretting that I didn't go about this another way. Oh well. I may be able to squeeze another 1/4 lb between the two without compressing it so much that it negates its purpose.


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

Gotta love HD finds, lol. I'm interested to see the results of that stuff, it looks like a great mass-loader. How much was it?

I've never been able to fit anywhere close to 1lb/ft^3 of polyfill, but I've always used the stuff from wal-mart. I would imagine there's stuff out there that's more compressed and takes up less space, but I've never felt the need to find some. I know the home audio guys use denim insulation and stuff like that.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I had the same idea about sound deadening. It's not that much heavier than a gallon of paint so I'm not sure how much mass loading you'd get out of it but I'm going to measure it tomorrow anyway. Basically, I'll lay out a 12"x12" swatch and note the weight. If it's even 1/2 the weight of most cld it's worth a look, since 50% is pretty good coverage for mass loading. It was only $20 for a gallon and that gallon would cover a crazy amount of square footage. The smell is almost completely dissipated and the stuff is dry enough to the touch after a few hours. A layer of this and a 1/8" eva/mlv would be a fantastic deadener combo and probably well under $1/sqft.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Also, I have a batch of expensive ass polyfill from parts express but I used some walmart high loft batting today. If I need to adjust either enclosure following the impedance measurement, then I'll try adding some of the loose parts express stuff to reduce the higher of the two tunes.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Henry's rubberized roofing sealant may be an excellent sound deadener! I measured 1 sqft today at 3oz with just the thinnest of skim coats. The sealant was very much less than 1/8" thick, where the manufacturer recommends applying 1/8-1/4" then placing a mesh over top and applying another 1/8-1/4". With two skim coats, you could easily net 6oz/0.375 lb/sqft which falls right in line with most cld weights. Two coats and a layer of extra thick aluminum foil from the grocery store would probably cover 50-100 sqft and cost about $25! 

Dynamat extreme: 0.45 lb/sqft
B-Quiet extreme: 0.3 lb/sqft
B-Quiet ultimate (brown bread): 0.35 lb/sqft
Audio Technix 80 mil: 0.66 lb/sqft
Audio Technix 60 mil: 0.5 lb/sqft

Considering that 100% coverage would be easy to achieve with this sealant, and 30-50% of any of the above listed products is sufficient coverage for dampening, the mass loading potential of this product is outstanding!


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Finished the enclosures today! I still had to give the left side the sawzall and ball peen treatment; right side was ready a while ago. After cutting the body up and folding the tabs back, I tossed 1 lb of duct seal on the back of each baffle, some rope caulk around the terminal cup holes and tightened everything in place. Terminal cups were secured to the baffle with copious amounts of silicon/gasket maker. Everything should be 100% sealed at this point but just in case, after checking and adjusting the tuning frequencies, I'll be laying some cld over all the potential seems and bolt holes. 

Rope caulked up and ready for some woofer action:









Fin!









Christ, in the past few weeks of playing with this thing, I've gone through a massive number of other members' build logs and have to say, my **** is ghetto. Hopefully everything sounds as good as it should and the ghettoness isn't apparent with the panels in place. Let it be known though, zero fiberglass or fab skills can still put together some functional goodness!


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

So you sealed up the ports with the terminal cups or do the ports still exit to the rear?


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Here's hoping that your side interior panels will fit on over those huge baffles.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

The ports are exiting in the rear still. When I say "sealed up" I mean everything _but_ the port. I'll be checking the tuning frequencies tomorrow and adjusting as needed.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Neil_J said:


> Here's hoping that your side interior panels will fit on over those huge baffles.


Fingers crossed


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

So I did the impedance measurements this evening as well. The impedance jig went together really easily. I didn't get a sexy peak-trough-peak but both the left and right side enclosures have a massive peak at 66 Hz which - qccording to winisd - corresponds to ~.7 sqft net volume and a 33Hz tune. That sounds about right and the frequency of the peak is identical left and right. I wish I could get a good trough to target the tuning frequency precisely but if I can't, is the similarity in the impedance spike enough to call them even?


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

So today I redid the LIMP measurements and expanded the frequency range so the lowest peak could be observed. On both sides the low peak occurs at 20 Hz and the high peak at 64-66 Hz. The lowest impedance was observed at 30-33 Hz. I'm giving ranges here because the measurement floats a tiny bit with ambient noise (trucks driving passed, etc.) and getting a "characteristic" snap shot isn't really possible. 

Either way, the low peak ALWAYS occurred at 20 Hz but the trough was within 5db from just below 50 Hz to the mid 20s with the lowest point varying slightly depending on the moment the snapshot was taken.

Here's one shot of the left side with the low point centered at 30Hz. The peaks are mislabeled here though, they occur at 64 and 20 Hz. Notice all the distortion from ambient noise in the upper frequencies:









Here's another look at the left side. The signal changes constantly but the peaks and valleys are pretty consistent. This shows the tuning frequency to be 32Hz. The low peak is correct but the high peak is mislabeled again, it's at 64Hz:









And this is the high peak from that measurement:


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

On to the other side...

Here's the right side peak at 63Hz, the low peak is again at 20Hz:









The cursor is centered on the lowest impedance here, 29.3Hz:









All told, I think the enclosures are pretty well even. The differences I'm seeing left-to-right are within the range that I'm seeing between different measurements of the same speaker. Winisd can't make its mind up about the enclosure size assuming a 2x9" port, so I believe the rear body cavity that the ports vent into is acting like a small port extension and dropping the tuning frequency slightly. 30-33Hz is a solid tune for my tastes, so I'll take it. I only hope the enclosure didn't turn out _too_ large as I'm already riding xmax in winisd models.

I'll take any input I can get here if you all are seeing something I'm not.

Edit: it's worth noting that my impedance jig has a 100 ohm resistor soldered in so that's why my readings are so high at baseline.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Ok, so had I read all the way through the LIMP manual I would have seen that there is an average function. Things look much nicer now. Both enclosures have peaks at IDENTICAL frequencies, 19.07 and 63.16 Hz. The lowest impedance varies though. I'm not sure if I should take much stock in those particular readings as there is only a 2 ohm spread over almost 10 Hz.

left avg:









right avg:


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

So all that's great, how do they sound?


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Neil_J said:


> So all that's great, how do they sound?


Hopefully I'll know this weekend. I still need to route all the wiring and install the amp. I can't wait to get all the panels back on and fire it up. I'm going to save the sound deadening for a later project. My wife is tired of having my car in pieces.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Well, I finished the amp install today... almost. I put it under the passenger seat because it was easier and I'm ready to have this done. If I go through with the midbass project in the future then I'll have to move it at that time. Unfortunately, I have a healthy ground loop going on. Apparently the grounding lug placed tantalizingly close to the amp location sucks and I'll have to figure something more robust out. It's a shame because I really don't feel like pulling everything up again. 

Layed a swatch of cld under the amp for good measure and secured the amp in place with ~18" total velcro.









All that means that the tang bands are up and running! I have to say, I'm very pleased. Initially I had them running off individual channels of the amp in stereo. I think the 8ohm load confuses the amp because I swear there wasn't 75 watts flowing through each channel. With the gain at anything under max, the subs were easily drown out by the front stage. After swapping the tweeters to the -2db position on the passives, I bridged the amp and configured the gain conservatively.

While the bass head in me is a little underwhelmed, there's plenty of low end. It really does sound dead-on my alpine 12 in its sealed enclosure at 600 watts. Coming from multiple 15s and ports in the past, I didn't really dig the alpine sealed but at least I'm not giving up any interior space.

Low passing the subs at 80Hz, 24 db/oct, and highpassing the dyns at 60 Hz, 12 db/oct, all my bass is up front with no time alignment. The only indication that the subs are positioned behind you comes from the seat back vibrating. I guess it helps having the subs 3 feet from your head. Blues Traveler, Michael Jackson, Dubstep, jungle, industrial, everything sound great. I can still get ignorant with some rap and electronic music but otherwise the sound is very clean and integrates well.
-----
Lesson learned: Keep it simple stupid. Quality 2-ways plus subs and decent power equal very good sound. The image is nice and high - even Danzig stays above the dash level - though it lacks depth, and I definitely feel like the left tweeter is talking to me. Some tuning should improve things considerably.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

The Alpine makes half power into 8 Ohms. 

Your ground location should be ok. I grounded my amps (an HD900/5 under one seat and an HD600/4 under the other) right next to each amp. Mine was an R55 JCW.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> The Alpine makes half power into 8 Ohms.
> 
> Your ground location should be ok. I grounded my amps (an HD900/5 under one seat and an HD600/4 under the other) right next to each amp. Mine was an R55 JCW.


The 8 ohm half power thing makes intuitive sense, and is what I anticipated, but these alpine class Ds seem to violate Ohm's law anyway so nothing would surprise me. I'll double check all my connections. I'm running source and speaker cables adjacent to the power cable, which supposedly isn't a concern, so the only other two grounds on the system are the headunit which is bolted directly to the dash frame, and the imprint module which takes it's power and ground from an unused connector behind the glove box.
-----

I did about 20 minutes of adjusting last night and picked up loads of depth and a much better center image with just a little TA on the left channel. It's a one-seat car at the moment though. 

Also, Jesus, I'm greedy. These alpine class Ds need some serious gain settings to do any respectable bass output. Google "pdx 600.1 input voltage switch" for other examples. Anyway, I have the subs BUMPIN! without any signal clippage but the gain seems to be set way too high. It looks like I'll be throwing the 600.1 under the driver's seat for the subs and bridging the 4.150 to 2 channels for the dyns. Everyone says the dyns like more power so I guess I'll give it to them. 600 rms is way over the tang bands' recommended anything but I should be able to achieve similar output with a much cleaner source. They haven't broken in yet and I'm already impressed with the abuse they're taking (I have no self control).


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> The Alpine makes half power into 8 Ohms.
> 
> Your ground location should be ok. I grounded my amps (an HD900/5 under one seat and an HD600/4 under the other) right next to each amp. Mine was an R55 JCW.


Also, did you ground the amps at the grounding jugs or did you knock some paint off and use the seat belt or seat rail mounting points? I'd read of other people having issues with ground noise using those grounding lugs so that's likely the first place I'll go.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Fun with BMW electrical systems... My headunit keeps losing its time alignment/eq/x-over settings. It holds onto them for a while but I guess when the main relay resets, the switched power lead goes dead. It's holding the clock and a few other minor settings just fine and I have the main power feed connected directly to the battery so I need to dig into a wiring diagram and see what's up. I may hardwire a ground from the battery to the headunit as well while I'm back there.

I turned the gain down to the 0.5v setting (about 65% gain) and the subs are probably only getting 4mm excursion at full tilt. Yup, time to install the 600.1.

edit: as soon as I posted this message I realized that the settings being lost are maintained by the imprint module. Right now I have imprint powered by a switched 12v. I'll start looking there later this week.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

I've had better luck using the cigarette lighter for accessory power rather than the one that went to the stock radio. I'm interested in knowing how the imprint module sounds in a Mini.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Neil_J said:


> I've had better luck using the cigarette lighter for accessory power rather than the one that went to the stock radio. I'm interested in knowing how the imprint module sounds in a Mini.


I think the headunit is good. I pulled the switched 12v signal off a large 12 gauge lead which powers the IHKA. That, and I just checked the H100 imprint manual and it shows I'm supposed to have 12v constant wired up  It pays to read the instructions some times.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

This is a quote from a different thread that I'm parking here to keep my head straight. If relocating the amp ground, or grounding the headunit and imprint module directly to the amp chassis doesn't correct the issue than I will be very unhappy.
-----
How can you eliminate alternator whine in a car audio system?

If you have alternator whine in a car audio system and want to get rid of it, there is only one sure-fire way to do it. David Navone and Richard Clark from Autosound 2000 in the USA developed the following step-by-step instructions. If you follow the instructions EXACTLY, you are guaranteed to trace and eliminate the noise in your car audio system. Don’t miss a step and don’t assume that something is OK without checking it.

Each time you check for noise, you should do it with the engine running at 1500 to 2000 rpm and the headlights on full beam so that the alternator will be charging. The tests with the CD player connected should be done with a ‘zero bit’ track playing and the volume at maximum. Set your CD player to ‘repeat’ if it has that feature.

Safety. Make sure when doing noise tests that the parking brake is on and working, and that the vehicle is in neutral or ‘park’. Perform these tests in an area with good ventilation or use an extension hose on the exhaust to route the fumes outside.

Step 1. Check the Amplifiers

1a. Unplug the RCA cables from the amplifier/s and mute the signal at the input by using shorting plugs. This will isolate the amplifier from the rest of the car stereo installation. You can make shorting plugs by taking cheap male RCA plugs and soldering the centre and outer terminals together. This shorts out the input of the amplifier/s to ensure that it has zero signal.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. Go straight to Step 2. Reduce The System.
No. Go to 1b.

1b. Disconnect the speakers from the amp and connect a pair of test speakers to it. Make sure the test speakers are not in contact with the car body. The purpose of this step is to ensure proper isolation of the speakers and the speaker leads from the car's chassis.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. Check speakers, speaker leads and passive crossovers for proper isolation from the car's chassis. Shift passive crossovers to a location away from power cables and the car’s body.
No. Go to 1c.

1c. Isolate the amplifier from the chassis of the car. There must not be any electrical contact between the car's chassis and the amplifier, except for the grounding point.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. Reinstall the amplifier isolated from the chassis of the car. Make sure that the amplifier is grounded in just one point.
No. Go to 1d.

1d. Supply the amplifier with an isolated power source, for example an external car battery or a 12-Volt DC power supply.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. Noise is entering the amplifier via the power supply, try changing the grounding point and add external power supply filtering. Consider changing the amplifier.
No. The amplifier has some severe problems, is totally isolated and still noisy. Replace it or have it repaired.

That is the end of Step 1. You have now either eliminated the amplifier and speakers as a problem or you have replaced a faulty amplifier. Now you can go on to Step 2.

Step 2. Reduce the System.

2a. The amplifier is known to be OK. It is now time to disconnect any signal processors (equaliser, electronic crossover, etc.) and connect the signal from the output of the head unit directly into the input of the amplifier.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. The noise source must be either one or more of the processors or possibly the signal route. Go to Step 3. ‘Add Signal Processors’. If you didn’t have any signal processors and you are using the signal cable in its normal, installed route then the problem is solved.
No. Go to 2b.

2b. Run new signal cables over a new route between the head unit and the amplifier.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. Permanently route the signal cables in the new route. Go to Step 3. ‘Add Signal Processors’. If you don’t have any signal processors then your problem is solved.
No. Go to 2c.

2c. Isolate the case of the head unit from car's chassis. There must not be any electrical contact between the head unit and car chassis except for a single grounding point. Beware of antenna grounds and pullout cases!

Has the noise gone?
Yes. Reinstall the head unit isolated from the car's chassis and any other metal parts in the dash. Ground the head unit at one point. Go to Step 3. ‘Add Signal Processors’. If you don’t have any signal processors then your problem is solved.
No. Go to 2d.

2d. Move the head unit ground to a quieter grounding point. Test a number of points and also try grounding the head unit to the same point as the amplifier.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. Reinstall the head unit using the quiet grounding point. Go to Step 3. ‘Add Signal Processors’. If you don’t have any signal processors then your problem is solved.
No. Go to 2e.

2e. Move the head unit as near to the amplifier as possible. Then connect output of the head unit to the amplifier with the shortest possible RCA cables.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. Reinstall the head unit one step at a time. Check for noise after each step during the reinstallation. Once you have the head unit installed, noise free go to Step 3. ‘Add Signal Processors’. If you don’t have any signal processors then your problem is solved.
No. Go to 2f.

2f. Supply the head unit with an isolated power source, for example an external car battery or a 12 VDC power supply. Make sure that car chassis is not in contact with the head unit.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. The head unit is sensitive to noise in the supply voltage. Add power supply filtering to the supply voltage for the head unit or use an isolated power supply. You may be better to change the head unit. Once you have a head unit installed noise free, go to Step 3. ‘Add Signal Processors’. If you don’t have any signal processors then your problem is solved.
No. There is a serious problem with the head unit. Go to Step 4 'Check the Vehicle' and/or change the head unit.

Step 3. Add Signal Processors.

At this level the amplifier is known to be good. The car's electrical system is OK and the reinstalled head unit is working fine when connected directly to the amplifier.

3a. Connect one of the Processors back into the signal path.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. Go to 3a for the next processor. If there are no more processors, the problem is solved.
No. Go to 3b.

3b. Run new signal cables over a new route between the Head-unit and processor and between the Processor and the amplifier.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. Permanently route the cables on the new quiet path. Go to 3a for the next processor. If there are no more processors, the problem is solved.
No. Go to 3c.

3c. Isolate the processor from the car's chassis except for a single grounding point. Connect the processor ground to the same grounding point as the head unit.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. Provide isolation between the Processor and the car's chassis and permanently route the cables on the known quiet path. Go to 3a for the next processor. If there are no more processors, the problem is solved.
No. Go to 3d.

3d. Since new cables and re-grounding does not help, it is time to relocate the processor very near the amplifier. Connect the output of the processor to the amplifier with the shortest possible RCA cables.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. Reinstall the Processor one step at a time. Check for noise after each step in the reinstallation. Be careful when routing the signal cables. Remember that the car's chassis is a conductor. Go to 3a for the next processor. If there are no more processors, the problem is solved.
No. Go to 3e.

3e. Power the processor with an isolated power supply. Do not let the processor touch the chassis of the car.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. The processor’s power supply in not sufficiently isolated from its audio circuitry. Either replace it or consider the permanent installation of an isolated power supply (1:1 DC/DC converter). This type of device provides a permanent power source that is well isolated from the car's chassis. Go to 3a for the next processor. If there are no more processors, the problem is solved.
No. Go to 3f.

3f. Physically separate the processor and the isolated power supply from the rest of the system by many metres. Use long signal cables.

Has the noise gone?
Yes. Something is seriously wrong with either the processor or your install/test procedures. Please repeat this level from the beginning.
No. Change Processor -- this one has design problems. Go back to 3a for the new processor.

Step 4. Check the Vehicle

The suspect car's charging and electrical systems can be checked by using the previously installed sound system in a "known quiet" car.

4a. Connect jumper cables between the batteries of the two vehicles and start the engine of the suspect car. Turn on the headlights on the suspect car and listen to the stereo on the "known quiet" car.

Is there now noise in the quiet car’s system?
Yes. Have a qualified auto electrician check out the car’s charging system.
No. The suspect car's alternator and charging system is now proven to be quiet. The problem must lie in the car stereo installation -- not in the vehicle.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

That's basic troubleshooting. Systematically reduce the system until you find the culprit.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Google the ten commandments of car audio, very similar but a great set of rules to live by. As for the ground loop problems, I had the same issue in my Mini until I started using an external dsp and digital source, and that was with a very good 12 awg ground and decent RCA cables. Never did figure out why, even after a lot of troubleshooting.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I had a similar though less intense hissing in the Jetta where all this gear was installed last time, but only from the cd changer and I wrote that off as the cheap Taiwanese ai-net cable (I still can't find a good, long Alpine branded cable). I'm sure it's nothing crazy, I'm just bummed that I have to half remove everything I've installed so far.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I spent some time playing with the subs this afternoon. I didn't have my tools handy to pull the seats so I tried to evaluate the performance of the setup as it is and see if I could improve it. First, I verified that the amp was providing enough juice. With a 0 db 50 Hz tone, the amp produced almost 44v at 90%+ volume, which is territory I never venture into. The good news is that the amp is giving me the power I anticipated but the subs aren't responding to it as well as I'd hoped. That's almost 500 watts by my calculation (44v^2/4 ohms) and should be plenty.

The best I got was just over 96db on the dash at 50 Hz; 30-45 Hz were in the upper 80s <sad trombone>. Swapping the polarity of one sub dropped over 16 db off the reading so I know they're in phase with one another currently. As a control (for cancellation issues) I swapped in my Alpine 12 in its 0.9 cuft sealed enclosure. The best it could manage was 91 db and change at 50 Hz and the same volume setting. 

What's got me scratching my head is that the 5+ db advantage of the Tang Bands is represented almost perfectly in winisd but the projected total spl is _WAY_ off, like 15 db for both the Alpine and the TBs. I'm willing to accept that winisd is modeling in a perfect world but how could it be so right in one respect and so wrong in another; especially considering the program doesn't factor cabin gain into the equation?

Does anyone have any idea why my output is so low?


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

You've got mad cabin gain in the Mini. Those numbers dont add up. I'd be more suspicious of your SPL meter, or if youre using a RTA or impulse program, your setup may be wrong. On this forum Patrick Bateman has said to be very wary of winISD's numbers. He recommends HornResp or a few other programs out there.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I'm using a cheap radio shack style db meter. I think it's pretty acurate abut I'll try out my iphone tonight and see if it reads differently. I expected at least 110 on the dash, winisd model or not. Really disappointing to only be in the 90s. I may hook up a scope to the sub signal tonight and see if I can max it out.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I fixed the alternator feedback tonight by running a longer ground for both the headunit and imprint module and tying them in at the same ground lug for the amp. Easy peezy. The alternator whine still exists on the cd changer channel but that was true of the Jetta as well. If anyone has a line on a branded long ai-net cable, let me know.

I'm still unimpressed by the bass output though I maxed the gain on the sub channel today. I get a bit of distortion at very high volumes but no popping or anything egregious. It sounds much fuller now at lower volumes. I'll have to take another voltage reading and db test before I put the interior back together and start chasing rattles.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Neil_J said:


> You've got mad cabin gain in the Mini. Those numbers dont add up. I'd be more suspicious of your SPL meter, or if youre using a RTA or impulse program, your setup may be wrong.


Damn dude, my meter reads in dba. <facepalm> That means my "96db" is more like 126, which is about spot on.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Lol, I knew it  Good to hear.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Now that I've had a few days of listening, I'm surprisingly happy with the subwoofer output. It's DEFINITELY better output than my single 12 in its sealed enclosure; though it doesn't rival the ported enclosure but I didn't expect it to. 

I think I'll keep the Tang Bands on the rear channels of the pdx 4.150 and save the 600.1 for a future project. Maybe an IB 15 through the tool compartment floor? I don't know. I can't be trusted to not sawzall my floor pan in the pursuit of bass.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Heterosapian said:


> Now that I've had a few days of listening, I'm surprisingly happy with the subwoofer output. It's DEFINITELY better output than my single 12 in its sealed enclosure; though it doesn't rival the ported enclosure but I didn't expect it to.
> 
> I think I'll keep the Tang Bands on the rear channels of the pdx 4.150 and save the 600.1 for a future project. Maybe an IB 15 through the tool compartment floor? I don't know. I can't be trusted to not sawzall my floor pan in the pursuit of bass.


If you figure out how to floor IB a 15" in a Mini, I'll buy you a beer


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I have one distinct advantage: mine's not an S so the exhaust is out of the way. Your car has the muffler to contend with.

I think I have a shot at removing the spare tire, cutting a hole through the tool compartment, and reverse mounting the woofer into a baffle underneath. The factory spare tire hangs down as much as six inches below the tool compartment so there shouldn't be any reduction in ground clearance. The project is a ways off but it just might happen. 

Your exhaust is interchangable with a non S. I can give you a measurement of the pipe diameters if you're interested or you could always just buy a larger aftermarket unit for a non S. Mini people love being different. I'm sure there's a chili red non S nearby that would swap rear bumpers, heat shields and exhausts with you.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Just found that quote from Patrick Batman about WinISD, it was from this thread: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ssion/135110-do-you-like-huey-lewis-news.html



Patrick Bateman said:


> (hornresp is the greatest thing ever, if you're using WinISD to build subs stop immediately, WinISD is the cause of global warming, dubstep, and a litany of other bad things)


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

For you Neil, in hopes that I can encourage some questionable decision making 

This is the spare tire installed in a non S R56 mini:









The spare is mounted at an angle and hangs ~8" below the bottom of the tool compartment (the bottom is tagged with a piece of green masking tape there).

Here is the location with the spare removed and a can of Great Stuff for reference. The heat shield extends 7-8" below the tool compartment:









Plenty of room.

Here's the tool compartment itself, 3" deep and 10x13" on the bottom. There is some doubled layers of sheet metal spot welded in there but I'm pretty sure that is there simply to reinforce the area the spare will hang from, rather than make the floor pan more rigid (the tool compartment is located behind the rear axle anyway):









A 10" hole in the bottom of the compartment represents 60% of the area of a standard 13" cutout for a 15" subwoofer, probably sufficient. It could always be made wider. The dayton 15" IB subwoofer has a mounting depth under 7" which means the sub (reverse mounted) has to extend 4" below the tool compartment to keep from raising the floor in the trunk. The rear bumper hangs 5-6" below the bottom of the tool compartment  IB, here we come!


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I'm very pleased with the subs; more so as I spend more time with them. I have the gain maxed, but only just today found a cd that makes the subs clip at +15 and 80% volume. Things Fall Apart by the Roots, tracks 3 and 13. Track 3 blows **** up routinely so I'm pleased I got away with it.

As soon as I get the interior back together - today I completed final assembly of the dash and footwell - I'm going to move on to an entirely different project. I think I'm going to try my hand at vinyl wrapping. I've got a small sample coming soon to practice with and get a feel for how the material behaves. Once I'm comfortable with it, I plan to wrap the whole car in matte white with a black matte roof. I'll carry that into the interior by covering the dash and pillar covers with microsuade and wrapping various trim pieces in the matte white vinyl.

I'm not impressed with the tweeter positioning so I think I'm going to try fiberglassing the a-pillars when I redo the dash. Hopefully, the microsuade functions as a dash mat. I may try padding it a bit for good measure.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Heterosapian said:


> As soon as I get the interior back together - today I completed final assembly of the dash and footwell - I'm going to move on to an entirely different project. I think I'm going to try my hand at vinyl wrapping. I've got a small sample coming soon to practice with and get a feel for how the material behaves. Once I'm comfortable with it, I plan to wrap the whole car in matte white with a black matte roof. I'll carry that into the interior by covering the dash and pillar covers with microsuade and wrapping various trim pieces in the matte white vinyl.


Damn, I'm a few weeks from wrapping my girlfriends Mini in matte vinyl, but you're probably going to beat me to it  Great minds think alike, I guess.
She's got a green 2007 as well, but hers is turbocharged like mine. The roof has been wrapped in the dry carbon for a few years now and is due for replacement, so we figured why not do the whole thing. We've got the swatches, but haven't decided which color(s) yet. 

Here's a link to a guy on Motoring Underground that did the matte white himself, that came out pretty good. He eventually un-wrapped it, and sold it for a BMW, I think he had issues with the vinyl chipping, but he was up north where there's snow and ice and stuff (I'm in Florida and don't have to worry about that).

Vic's R56 Stormtrooper Conversion - Page 27 - motoring|underground

Anyway, good luck with the whole thing, we've got a few contacts who wrap cars professionally, so let me know if you have any questions.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

As for the 6x9 subs. Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disc, Track 9: Livingston Taylor - Grandma's hands. There's a very subtle sub-bass where the a capella singers are tapping their feet on the floor. Pretty hard to get right unless you've got some serious displacement going on. How does that track sound? Here's the link to purchase/download it, if you don't already own it.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Neil_J said:


> If you figure out how to floor IB a 15" in a Mini, I'll buy you a beer



It's easy. Cut a hole in the hatch floor and flush the sub into the tool kit area. What do I win?


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> It's easy. Cut a hole in the hatch floor and flush the sub into the tool kit area. What do I win?


Dunno, can I mail a beer to an APO?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Apparently you haven't looked at my location in the last year or so...


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Neil_J said:


> Damn, I'm a few weeks from wrapping my girlfriends Mini in matte vinyl, but you're probably going to beat me to it  Great minds think alike, I guess.
> She's got a green 2007 as well, but hers is turbocharged like mine. The roof has been wrapped in the dry carbon for a few years now and is due for replacement, so we figured why not do the whole thing. We've got the swatches, but haven't decided which color(s) yet.
> 
> Here's a link to a guy on Motoring Underground that did the matte white himself, that came out pretty good. He eventually un-wrapped it, and sold it for a BMW, I think he had issues with the vinyl chipping, but he was up north where there's snow and ice and stuff (I'm in Florida and don't have to worry about that).
> ...


Thanks man, I had seen that thread but I understand that he used a pretty cheap vinyl product for the whole car. I've had some experience with the 3M brand stuff and it's tough as nails. Two layers on the hood and front bumper and mirror covers and you're golden. Easier said then done but the 3M stuff is apparently really forgiving. I've got a test swatch coming soon to practice with; try doing some wheels as they're about the most complex shape I'll come accross on the car.

As for the test cd, I'll definitely check that out and report back. I'd like to try imprinting the systme before making any firm conclusions and that may mean installing the 600.1 for the subs and going active with the dyns.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Hmm, I didn't include extra material for doubling up on the hood, bumpers, and mirrors. Might take your advice there. Even so, should be less than $400 by my estimate. We're starting out on the trim pieces first, then roof, doors and quarter panels, then finally hood, bumpers, etc. Save the hardest for last.

I might be getting an Imprint module for my girlfriends mini, to plug into the CDA-117. I've read the instructions, but I'm still not clear on what kind of manual control you get on the Eq, crossovers, and T/A, when the auto tune used and/or bypassed. Any insight you can shed?


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Imprint takes total control once you run it. It's kind of a pain in the ass. You get a Bass and Treble control and that's it. If I had it to do over again - and didn't already have a pile of gear to use - I would leave the factory radio hooked up, put an 80prs in the secret compartment with a steering wheel control module, and call it a day. I'm not really fond of the imprint's imaging but it's always killed any of my manual tunes for tonality. I'm always impressed with the sound, and if you've already got a deck that supports the H100, it's definitely the cheapest option around for clean sound. 

Having said all that, my headunit doesn't have any manual time alignment, eq, crossovers, etc without the H100 so I absolutely need it, whether or not I use the auto-eq. I'm not familiar with the cda-117 but if I had to guess, I'd say you need an imprint module to get full functionality out of it. 

What sucks is, I had a killer alpine unit from almost 10 years ago the had TA, EQ, etc. etc. but I sold it with my tacoma a while back. That thing was nice. I can't remember the model number for the life of me. 

Summary: if she doesn't already have a headunit, go the 80prs route and don't look back (****, that thing is sexy!)


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

As for the vinyl, "tough as nails" is a bit of an exaggeration. You'll get some chips at highway speeds but mainly in areas where the vinyl was streched really taught. Even then, those same pebbles that tear the vinyl would otherwise chip the paint so I think it's only reasonable to expect some damage. Unfortunately, the areas that would benefit most from a double layer are also the most difficult to wrap. $400 is a very reasonable budget if you're doing everything on your own. You should be able to score enough for that money to make plenty of mistakes.


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

The only use of the H100 Imprint box is to get time alignment, active crossover, (2way+sub) and a parametric eq for alpine source units that support it. But in that regard, those two functions work well, and it uses an AInet connection so it should be nice a quiet with the CDA-117.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

If one has the cash, and wants an AiNet processor, the H800 superior, hands down. I have it in my car and absolutely love it. The H701 isn't too bad either at around $300 used. I was looking at the Imprint as a cost effective way of going full active without much fuss, but I'm not convinced it's what we're looking for. I need parametric eq and manual TA as I don't trust the autotune. So we might go the MiniDSP route, along with an outboard crossover/eq for the subwoofer.

Edit: just re-read your post, I'm going to go back and study the manual some more...


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

This evening I tacked some foam weatherstripping around the front woofers, then dampened and reinstalled the door panels. No rattles up front though I do plan to pull the door carrier and do a proper deaden-and-seal to the front doors eventually.

I think the subs are going to get a lot more range. I played with the crossover and they sound really good crossed as high as 125 Hz @ 24 db/oct. I can't localize them any better or worse crossed this high but they can't take nearly as much power. Considering I had to keep the subwoofer at 8/15 on the deck, I think I'll go back to unbridged stereo. The left woofer is 18" from my head, the right is probably 4 feet away. Maybe with some stereo time alignment I'll pick up the 3db I lose halving the power. If it doesn't pull the image too far back I may cross them upwards of 200 Hz.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Played with the subwoofer low pass for a few minutes. I find that if the low pass filter is set to 80+ Hz, bass guitar is no longer coming from the front. Really anything over 63 Hz. As such, I've set the subs up to 200 Hz @ 24 db/oct and I'm hoping returning the sub chanels to stereo - reducing the power and allowing for time alignment - will move it forward a bit.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Heterosapian said:


> Played with the subwoofer low pass for a few minutes. I find that if the low pass filter is set to 80+ Hz, bass guitar is no longer coming from the front. Really anything over 63 Hz. As such, I've set the subs up to 200 Hz @ 24 db/oct and I'm hoping returning the sub chanels to stereo - reducing the power and allowing for time alignment - will move it forward a bit.


After changing the LP filter to 80Hz+, did you then change your subwoofer level relative to the midbass? If not, then your method is not the right way to do it. 
Read many times people going over 80Hz and not liking it but never changed the levels 

Suggest you get some test tones and listen with your subwoofer only while playing with Xover slopes in order to have an even bandwith - who knows, you might find that a 12dB/oct slope is the way to go 

Kelvin


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I did change the levels afterwards out of necessity. I'd been listening to reggae and electronic music; really enjoying the bass. Then I put in disc 1 of The Wall by Pink Floyd and the vocals were super boomy. ALL of the bass guitar was coming from the rear unless the level was turned insanely low. I set the crossover point to 80 Hz, cranked the level back up and it sounded fantastic. I'm going to play with the slope tomorrow and see how that turns out. I've always been a second-order-crossed low guy and I'm sure that's where I'll end up eventually.

If I can rant for a second, I think the Wall is a great test tool for sub tuning. Hell, tuning in general. I've gone through a ton of different music the passed few days, and I think this album lines up best with my tastes (what I _really_ listen to, not just bass out to). It has excellent mastering, a tremendous vocal range and a good variety of organic and electronic instruments. The Wall has _great_ bass variety to boot. Lots of simultaneous twangy bass guitar, low heavy kick drum, and the vocals stretch surprisingly low. Instead of finishing some errands, I sat in my car in the Home Depot parking lot for 15 minutes zoning out. It sounds really good. My system was made for this album. <goosebumps>


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Heterosapian said:


> I did change the levels afterwards out of necessity. I'd been listening to reggae and electronic music; really enjoying the bass. Then I put in disc 1 of The Wall by Pink Floyd and the vocals were super boomy. ALL of the bass guitar was coming from the rear unless the level was turned insanely low. I set the crossover point to 80 Hz, cranked the level back up and it sounded fantastic. I'm going to play with the slope tomorrow and see how that turns out. I've always been a second-order-crossed low guy and I'm sure that's where I'll end up eventually.
> 
> If I can rant for a second, I think the Wall is a great test tool for sub tuning. Hell, tuning in general. I've gone through a ton of different music the passed few days, and I think this album lines up best with my tastes (what I _really_ listen to, not just bass out to). It has excellent mastering, a tremendous vocal range and a good variety of organic and electronic instruments. The Wall has _great_ bass variety to boot. Lots of simultaneous twangy bass guitar, low heavy kick drum, and the vocals stretch surprisingly low. Instead of finishing some errands, I sat in my car in the Home Depot parking lot for 15 minutes zoning out. It sounds really good. My system was made for this album. <goosebumps>


That's one of the disadvantages of having so much cabin gain. It's one of the hardest issues that I've yet to fully mitigate (although I've gotten closer than I ever thought possible without equipment changes). Most of it seems to be in the 60 to 80 Hz area, and I've found a very very steep Q filter in that area (I had to stack two parametric bands together) helps tremendously.

Chesky Ultimate Demonstration Disc, track 27, Bass Resonance is a good track for this, it sounds like utter garbage with eq defeated (doubly so when you've got peaky small drivers like me).


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I Finished putting most of the interior back together today. It was more of a process than I expected but it all worked out for the best. The baffle cleared the pane leasily but I had to trim a considerable amount of material from the grill area to clear the woofer surrounds.

Here is the back side of the panel. The speaker grill is a separate piece but is melted to the panel at all the points circled in red. A razor blade wasn't doing the job so I broke out the dremel cut off wheel:

















I highlighted some areas of the grill that are obstructing the woofer. It actually contacts those areas when playing. It's strange that Mini designed the grills this way. You'll notice the sections that I intended to cut correspond to sealed sections of the grill. Here are the panels cut and the grill swiss-cheesed to vent a little more noise:


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Once that was completed, I deadened each panel with 2 sqft of cld:









And here they are installed. You'll notice that I trimmed and a bunch more panel to clear the woofer surrounds. 









I have some grill cloth on the way that I intend to wrap the swiss-cheesed grill sections in before reinstalling them; probably with a few caterpillars of rtv. It should look clean when I'm finished.
-----
Since I was reinstalling the interior trim panels, I had to find a more permanent home for the cde changer. It took a little "clearancing" with a ball peen and air hammer, but after a few minutes of butchery it fits like a glove.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

I wrapped my roof, mirror caps, chrome trim on the grill and around the fog lights with 3m 1080 and it has held up with no issues for a year. I even go through carwashes with it. lol

It cost me nearly $200 for the vinyl to do just those parts. But I bought extra to cover screwups (One mirror cap has several compound curves and took 9 tries!) I probably could have gotten it cheaper online, but I bought it locally so I knew I could get more quickly if need be.

Lately, I've been contemplating doing a matte wrap, but that will be after the stereo is in and playing and my new wheels come in.

I'd never heard of anyone doubling up on the vinyl...interseting.

Out of curiosity, have you looked at Dipyourcar.com? Another option I've been looking at for cheap, temporary color changes.

Man, that 6x9 still looks like it will hit the panel. I assume there's more clearance than it looks like in the pic?

Jay


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

JayinMI said:


> Out of curiosity, have you looked at Dipyourcar.com? Another option I've been looking at for cheap, temporary color changes.
> 
> Man, that 6x9 still looks like it will hit the panel. I assume there's more clearance than it looks like in the pic?
> 
> Jay


It's funny, thats where I plan to order some plastidip for an upcoming project. I'm going to build a gym in my garage using mostly second hand equipment and plan to plastidip everything yellow to match. I'm buying an air compressor for the garage anyway and a workable hplv gun is like $15 from harbor freight. If it goes well, I'd definitely considered doing the mini. It would be cheaper than the vinyl, and I could do my MK2 golf first as a test subject. The paint on that thing is rough enough that I can more easily justify mistakes.

As for the woofer clearance, judging by the pic, it looks scary close to the panel. It's at its closest on the bottom right where the surround tucks back under. There was about a pencil eraser's worth of clearance there but I opened it up a bit more with a hand file once the panel was installed. I can play the woofers high enough to exceed xmax and they don't touch. It's definitely close though. I just hope my kid doesn't go pressing on the panel anytime soon


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

I was going to order my Plastidip from them, but I ended up going to Metrorestyling. They're sort of local to me, and if you pay cash, they don't charge tax...so I save 6% tax+about $16 for shipping on my supplies to do my wheels.

If you're gonna go with gallons, then I'd definitely go with Dipyourcar, tho.

Pics of Mk2?


Jay


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

That's my Jetta and gti. Gti has a vr6 under the hood, Mk3 brakes, e30 14" bbs wheels, cut passat springs (allows for a stock ride height with substantially increased spring rates), bilsteins and a rear sway bar. Jetta has coilovers, G60 corrado steelies and front brakes. I also just sold a mk1 rabbit gti with a half cage, 16v itb swap on megasquirt, hks ultra-lows and borbet type-As.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

JayinMI said:


> I was going to order my Plastidip from them, but I ended up going to Metrorestyling. They're sort of local to me, and if you pay cash, they don't charge tax...so I save 6% tax+about $16 for shipping on my supplies to do my wheels.


I'm 99.9% sure that's where I got my 3m Scotchprint swatches from.


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## south east customz (Jan 17, 2011)

Wow I just saw the pricing from that metro site and damn you guys are paying a pretty penny.
If u need any more of that material let me know, I'll give you guys awesome pricing on it.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

south east customz said:


> Wow I just saw the pricing from that metro site and damn you guys are paying a pretty penny.
> If u need any more of that material let me know, I'll give you guys awesome pricing on it.


Greg, I'll definitely be contacting you on this... thanks again, I owe you one (more).


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

I will keep that in mind.

Jay


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Heterosapian said:


> That's my Jetta and gti. Gti has a vr6 under the hood, Mk3 brakes, e30 14" bbs wheels, cut passat springs (allows for a stock ride height with substantially increased spring rates), bilsteins and a rear sway bar. Jetta has coilovers, G60 corrado steelies and front brakes. I also just sold a mk1 rabbit gti with a half cage, 16v itb swap on megasquirt, hks ultra-lows and borbet type-As.


I like Mk I's, I'm mainly an aircooled guy. Every watercooled I've ever had (or a family member/gf has had) weren't particularly reliable. I'd like to do one up someday. But never if it was my only mode of transportation. There was a bright orange '77 in a Volksworld magazine that I would love to come close to duplicating.

Jay


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Can anyone think of a reason NOT to use the unused rear channel outputs of my imprint controller to run a center channel? I'm thinking of using a few small full range drivers in an array, running off a low-power class t or something. I'm sure Imprint would accomodate them but I don't know if it would be worth the effort.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I guess we'll find out. Partsexpress has some 2" full range drivers on buyout; I just bought four for $27 shipped.

https://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=299-208

Anyone have any recommendations for an amplifier? I don't need more than 20 watts/channel @ 4 ohms.

edit: I'm thinking of trying this amp:
http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Systems-CE200M-MOSFET-Monoblock/dp/B0077IA7FG/ref=sr_1_1?s=car&ie=UTF8&qid=1366649999&sr=1-1&keywords=mini
If I wire everything so the amp sees 8 ohms, that's 50w rms mono (summed stereo, ghetto). Low gain should make for clean sound production stretching below the vocal range and will hopefully be "invisible" other than dragging the image higher and more centered for BOTH the passenger and driver.

(If it's not already apparent, I'm trying to run this little experiment on as few dollars as possible. Worst case scenario, I ditch the center channel idea all together and I'm 3/4 of the way to building/powering a sweet little desktop boom-box)


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Heterosapian said:


> Can anyone think of a reason NOT to use the unused rear channel outputs of my imprint controller to run a center channel? I'm thinking of using a few small full range drivers in an array, running off a low-power class t or something. I'm sure Imprint would accomodate them but I don't know if it would be worth the effort.


I don't believe the Imprint has a center channel extraction algorithm, so to me, that sounds like a bad idea. Exactly what information do you plan to feed to the center channel?


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I plan to feed it everything. Relative to the front components it should be little more than a whisper though. I don't want a one-seat car again and this seems like a decent way of keeping the stage relatively centered for both front seats.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Heterosapian said:


> I plan to feed it everything. Relative to the front components it should be little more than a whisper though. I don't want a one-seat car again and this seems like a decent way of keeping the stage relatively centered for both front seats.


I've been meaning to write up a thread for a while on all types of center and surround type stuff, but have been too busy. I've probably read up on multichannel surround stuff more than anyone around here except maybe Andy W. Suffice to say, if we assume that you're playing standard stereo CD material, that in order to create a believable center channel, you will NEED a decent upmixing algorithm as part of some DSP unit. For example, Logic7 Dolby Pro Logic II and/or IIx, or even the EUPHONY that some Alpine DSPs offer. Normal L+R (left plus right) summing sent to center channel only provides 3 dB isolation and basically ruins your stage, because you end up with large bits of left and right that make it into the center channel, and vice versa. The various algorithms mentioned use various tricks to "steer" the stereo source to various channels, and provide more than 3 dB (max of around 48 dB iirc) separation. Feel free to try it and correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a dead end in 2013... Back in the 70's you saw guys doing it (at the recommendation of Michael Gerzon et. al.), but it's because that's all they had at the time. There are other threads that I can link you to where the various DSPs that accomplish this, and the pros/cons of the whole thing. The MS8 thread also has some good info, although the S/N ratio of good to useless posts is quite bad.

Hope this helps.


Edit: The H800 or even the H701 seems perfect for what you're trying to do (two seat car), if you have $250-$300 laying around, or stuff you could sell, you can pick up a used 701 in the classifieds section and have exactly what you want. And I'm sure someone would buy the imprint processor off you, which would subsidize it even further.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

I'd love to see some of those links. If the center channel is operating 20-30 db below all the other speakers, is channel separation a concern?


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Heterosapian said:


> I'd love to see some of those links. If the center channel is operating 20-30 db below all the other speakers, is channel separation a concern?


I can't really see it improve imaging much, but give it a try (i'll probably do the same). It might be slightly better than simple stereo, or slightly worse.. but I can't see it being night and day different.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Any progress? Were you still planning on doing the under-seat midbasses? I'm considering going that route myself, as the door midbasses just aren't cutting it. I've managed to get rid of the resonances from the door skin (mostly cuts around 80 Hz at a high Q value, and the loads of deadening material), but I still get tons of resonances and rattles on transients. No room for kicks obviously. Just interested if you had any further thoughts on the subject.


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## Heterosapian (Dec 31, 2011)

Wow, I haven't updated this thing in quite some time! Anyway, I've essentially done nothing but enjoyed the system for the last six months. In fact, it hasn't been any more than rough tuned; I planned to play with phase and imprint this afternoon and found myself back on diyma. 

If anyone is considering this project, I highly recommend it. I keep the subs at about 8 of 15 on the deck and it sounds great. The sub bass integrated nicely and extends very low - and not just for a pair of 6x9s. It never distorts since the excursion causes the woofer surround to interfere with the rear trim panel at higher volumes, so the gain has to be kept in check. I don't know if that's a bad thing since it keeps me responsible, but eventually I'll have to dig into and modify the panels. These things will pump pretty good when I feel like it. 

After living with them a while, they definitely prefer organic kick drums and 90s synth bass. I'm sure they'd accurately handle anything if I had the patience to set it up properly. Unfortunately I'm finding the cabin gain in a MINI is both a blessing and a curse. If you get too wild with the gain, the subs can get very boomy and creep up into vocal ranges. As such, I've given up on wild spl with all listening material and am thoroughly enjoying how well the subs integrate at lower gain levels.


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## Tominizer (Jul 5, 2012)

Good read. Nice to see another Mini project. Still working on my '08 Clubman with a Pioneer P99R installed. Just waiting for the 40 pin cable. My '08 had a factory head unit go bad so the replacement was NOT a 32 pin cable. I found that out the hard way.

BTW, installed the JL 600.6 in the front passenger side foot well and made a false floor for it. A lot easier to run RCA's, speaker wire and all the other crap to the 3-ways from that location. Something worth considering if you're trying to save room out back.


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## jimjam19927 (Apr 23, 2014)

I've spent the past hour reading up on the r56 audio installations.

Obv the factory radio provides an issue and if I'm correct al that is needed for an install is the longer ribbon cable and fascia and aerial adapter? 

I am competent with using a multimeter and hardwiring audio into vehicles. 

I've got a moderate budget anyway. Would an audio processor something like an alpine pxe h650 be a better option to save all the hastle of the factory stereo cramming etc?


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