# No more horns!!! =/



## Mike Hall (Jun 30, 2006)

I did a cummins and ZF6 manual swap in my 2005 F250 a few years back and now I am running into issues with re-installing my old ID CD1 horns. I have had these things for close to 20 years and they have been in most all my past vehicles. I had the horns in my truck for years but, with the addition of needing to use the E brake and the clutch pedal causing more clearance issues, there is really no way of installing horns in my truck now. I have CD1 horns, minis, and even a set of USD horns and nothing will work. 

What on earth could i used to get similar impact and dynamics when using a very small mid and tweeter combo? I think I will go with a kick panel install and the drivers will need to be small as possible. I would like to keep the midbass drives which are located in lower front of the doors now 8" like i had with the horns. If anyone has some advice on what would give good "horn like" performance please let me know. Power comes from 3 Arc Audio KS300.4 amps

Thanks
Mike


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## richiec77 (Sep 11, 2011)

Could try this type of install out. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/934567-post331.html

Dave had underdash HLCD's and eventually made a set himself to mount on top of the dash. Seems easy enough to make.


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## Mike Hall (Jun 30, 2006)

That would be sweet but, where do i find info on horn body design? I had thought about doing something like that but, I am not sure if I have time to sit and design horn bodies that would perform correctly. Maybe the process is not as complex it would seem so if you have a thread discussing such please post a link. I would love to keep horns as a part of my trucks system design.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

You could motorize your E brake to give you a little more room for the horn body?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Mike Hall said:


> That would be sweet but, where do i find info on horn body design? I had thought about doing something like that but, I am not sure if I have time to sit and design horn bodies that would perform correctly. Maybe the process is not as complex it would seem so if you have a thread discussing such please post a link. I would love to keep horns as a part of my trucks system design.


Dave just bought some 4.5"x4.5" elliptical waveguides from parts express then chopped them down to where there was no excess flange, then made a template to match the curve of his dash and windshield and kitty hair'd it to the waveguide. It wasn't terribly difficult.

An alternative (I'm doing these in my current build) would be to put a pair of these in your A-pillars:

Ciare 1.26NdTW tweeter- Ciare 1.26NdTW is a lightweight neodymium tweeter for all high quality high frequency speaker systems - Ciare Speakers - Ciare 1.26NdTW tweeters available now.

They won't play down as low as horns but are incredibly efficient. Plus if you're putting your mid in your kicks you should have better on axis response up to 3khz or so. I've run horns since I met Dave and this will be my first non-horn install. I've spent a lot of time researching alternatives and these seem to fit the bill if you can afford the higher xover point.


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## cajunner (Apr 13, 2007)

there's always a way to put in horns, you just have to trust in expansion rate and appx vertical vs. horizontal, so you get the mild gain from the waveguide and the sensitivity of the compression driver still working together.

there's no comparison to a small format tweeter and midrange, the horn is the bird, and the bird is the word...


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

cajunner said:


> there's always a way to put in horns, you just have to trust in expansion rate and appx vertical vs. horizontal, so you get the mild gain from the waveguide and the sensitivity of the compression driver still working together.
> 
> there's no comparison to a small format tweeter and midrange, the horn is the bird, and the bird is the word...


I'm actually going to do horns and those Ciares on an A/B setup and have separate tunes on my H800


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## Mike Hall (Jun 30, 2006)

Thanks for the replies. Here are the major issues I am running into with fitting the horns in my truck now. Yes the E brake is a big one as I used to have it unhooked and pushed to the floor when my truck had the Auto transmission. With the manual I have to have the E brake for sure. I have thought about trying to install another type of E brake system but I do not want to get too crazy. Just say I moved the horn over or trimmed it enough to not have issues with the E brake pedal, I would still have major issues with the clutch pedal as it sits a little higher and farther forward than the brake pedal which was already close to the horn. The only real option I can see is to cut and re-weld the clutch and brake pedals to change the geometry a bit and lengthen them a touch to get them lower. If Ford would not have made the passenger side of the dash 2" lower than the drivers side, I would not be having these issues. If the horn could mount right under the drives side dash, There would be no clearance issues at all. The problem is i have the mount the horn a good 2" below the dash's lower edge to be at the same height as the passenger side horn. There is no way to rise the passenger horn as the AC/heater components are the limiting factor and they are not going to move if any at all. I have been mulling over this for a good while and today I got all the horns out and messed around for a few hours trying to come up with an idea to make it work. Short of major work with the clutch/brake pedals, i do not see the horns fitting in a location that keeps them from being all in the way while operating the truck safely. 

The ideas on the waveguides as me doing some research.

Thanks
Mike


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Eric may chime in with some different advice, and I've always level-mounted my horns, but it sounds to me like the easiest thing to try, that requires zero modification, is to mount the drivers side horn 2" higher than the passenger side, so it clears all your pedals. Tune it and see if you can get it to image properly before you go hacking and welding.

Also, you did the motor and tranny swap yourself? If so, I don't see why you're scared of doing a solenoid e-brake or relocating a center console type handle to the side of your driver's seat, etc. There are a lot of options out there that don't require a ton of fabrication.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

As previously stated, you're not going to get a 3" midrange a tweeter even close to those Horns.. The difference in height can be off a bit, I think 2" might be a bit too much, but maybe not. 

Hopefully Eric Stevens will see this and chime in....


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## Mike Hall (Jun 30, 2006)

Yep, I did the conversion myself and it wasnt that bad. I even design and made my own adapter plates and all. I will look into the E brake mods but, that is not the biggest clearance issue. I could possibly trim the horn some and not have any issues with the E brake pedal. The biggest issues is that the bottom of the horn is level with the top of the pedals and that leads to foot hitting horn when going to push the pedal and that can be a little sketchy in an emergency. haha The only real option I have is the possibly mount the drivers horn a little higher or modify my pedals to gain more clearance. My pedals used to be adjustable but I replaced it all with the standard type when i added the clutch. I never saw an adjustable pedal setup for a manual truck anyhow.


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## Mike Hall (Jun 30, 2006)

This is not my truck but it shows the difference in dash height between drivers and passengers side. It is about 2" difference which is a huge amount to me. I am uber picky about crap like that. hahaha


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Non-symetrical height is a non-issue. It will sound, stage and image well even if the height is off by 2". The change to the path length difference is minimal and that is the most important consideration. 

If there is a question do as stated in another message and test it first. I am confident that if the height is creating the obstacles you should just do it and enjoy.


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## Mike Hall (Jun 30, 2006)

Eric, I wish I would have realized that long ago. :laugh: I have always done my best to keep the horn bodies as symmetrically mounted as possible and normally sacrifice some comfort in order to do so. I think I shall have these boys back under the dash this afternoon. 

Mike


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

What 8" mids are you running currently? I have some holy grail JBL 2118H laying around that I won't be using... #shamelessplug (I hate Twitter and that was done in pure mockery)


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## Mike Hall (Jun 30, 2006)

I have two sets of the JBL 2118H drivers as well both both sets need a re-cone job now. I have a set of Faital pro 8" drivers that I will be installing now. I forget the model number but they are the high end versions that cost $200 each. The baskets are a good bit larger than the JBL mids so I am going to be rebuilding the mounting pods and building grills to keep friends with big feet from kicking holes in them. :laugh:


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

The W8N8-200? Those are sexy! Almost wish they could be reverse mounted... The motors on those things are bad ass. I ran them a few years back. They lack in the midrange off axis but are great down low. If you're mounting them in the kicks, you may have better results. I couldn't get them to blend well in a 2 way but I think they'd make a killer dedicated midbass.


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## Mike Hall (Jun 30, 2006)

I have the FaitalPRO 8PR200 drivers which look the same as the one your talking about. The 8PR200 drivers are a bit more efficient and a bit more $$. The motors and baskets are pretty sweet looking but I like the simple pro audio look of the cone and ribbed surround as well. I will be using a wish they were dual voice coil so I could run a single Arc audio 300.4 per driver but oh well. These will be mounted lower forward portion of my doors. I will try to angle them as much as possible but they are going to be somewhat limited. It seems like I remember these drivers being fine off axis which is about as good as it will get in my truck.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

If I was in your situation, I would buy some waveguides from Dave:

acoustic waveguides

There are lots of great waveguides out there, but Dave's are particularly well suited to dome tweeters. *It's quite easy to get the efficiency of a dome tweeter to 100dB+ on a waveguide.*

For the midrange part of the equation, just use a nice 5" or 6" unit that can handle some serious power.


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## Mike Hall (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, I have not had a stereo in my truck sense 2011. It is time for that to change and I have a plan on how I will fit the horns in my truck again. I am going to stick with the full side ID horn bodies and to make that happen I am going to lower the clutch and brake pedals about 2" which is about as low as I can drop them. I am also going to design and fabricate a ratcheting E brake pedal which can not positioned below the horn body. The ratcheting system will be needed to get enough travel to pull the brake cable correctly. I thought about the electric E brake setup but I sure do not want any kind of failure with a big truck like mine. I think a mechanical ratchet setup on the pedal will work great and I can keep the factory E brake mechanics in place other than adding the modified pedal. With these mods I should have plenty of room for my horns to be put back where they belong in my truck. =)


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## nyquistrate (Apr 17, 2011)

Please post pics as you go


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Mike Hall said:


> If Ford would not have made the passenger side of the dash 2" lower than the drivers side, I would not be having these issues. If the horn could mount right under the drives side dash, There would be no clearance issues at all. The problem is i have the mount the horn a good 2" below the dash's lower edge to be at the same height as the passenger side horn. There is no way to rise the passenger horn as the AC/heater components are the limiting factor and they are not going to move if any at all. I have been mulling over this for a good while and today I got all the horns out and messed around for a few hours trying to come up with an idea to make it work. Short of major work with the clutch/brake pedals, i do not see the horns fitting in a location that keeps them from being all in the way while operating the truck safely.
> 
> The ideas on the waveguides as me doing some research.
> 
> ...



The 2" height difference isnt going to effect it much and likely wont even be noticeable at all once tuned. The effect is only one of changing the the PLD a little probably 1" to 1.375" increase and a small change in angle. Both will be very minimal differences and wont stop you from achieving a great result


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## Mike Hall (Jun 30, 2006)

Eric Stevens said:


> The 2" height difference isnt going to effect it much and likely wont even be noticeable at all once tuned. The effect is only one of changing the the PLD a little probably 1" to 1.375" increase and a small change in angle. Both will be very minimal differences and wont stop you from achieving a great result


I wish I would have known that through out all the years I have had these horns installed in about every vehicle I have owned. I would often not use them due to such variations but that was only in a hand full of vehicles I have owned being I would buy based on what the underside of the dash was like. hahahaha

The reason for moving the pedals down and modifying the E brake is to just have a bit more clearance. I often have on work boots and just simply moving the pedals down 2" or so will make a huge improvement in clearance. I am not actually moving the pedals down but more lengthening the pedals 2" and maybe bringing them forward just a little for the increased travel that will be required with longer pedals. I will iron that all out.


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