# Best souding double DIN nav head unit on the market?



## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Hey,

I have an Audi S4 with the Audi nav unit, the rns-e. I'll be doing my build soon (Morel 3way, Mcintosh 6 channel, JBL MS8) pretty soon, and I'm wondering if the head unit is the best one for me to stick with.

Basically I come from a straight up home audiophile background, so I'm wondering what the absolute best sounding double din + nav head unit on the market is. Looking for all the audio goodies, ie. neutrality, transparency, dynamics, staging ability, etc.

What's the best sounding one available, and why?

Thanks in advance

-hifitodd


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## Toys7505 (Jul 1, 2008)

You can check out the offerings from Alpine, Kenwood Excelon, and Pioneer. It's not so much the best sounding DD HU but how you treat the interior cabin with acoustics.


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## KrackerG (Jan 18, 2011)

its all about personal preference, but im a big fan of alpine! some of the older models that had no preamp, copper chassis, 4v pre-outs were the the best, imho...


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## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

My Eclipse 726e isn't too bad! But then again I'm looking to buy a Pioneer Dex p99rs so I guess there's always room for improvement! Lol


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

I'd wait for the Alpine INA-W9*1*0.


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## Sarthos (Oct 29, 2010)

Yes, it's all about personal preference, if you like a Sony headunit more, it will obviously have less distortion and sound sooooo much better than anything else....

If you're looking for Double DIN + Nav, your choices become limited. I'm not sure if the Alpine F1 status had NAV, if so that's your best bet. Some of the newer Alpines with optical out would work well (I believe the MS8 has optical input?) Otherwise, if you're willing to run two separate units, one for audiophile sound quality and the other for navigation, you have a LOT of choices.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Sarthos said:


> Yes, it's all about personal preference, if you like a Sony headunit more, it will obviously have less distortion and sound sooooo much better than anything else....


Noise floor will always trump psychoacoustics though, can't look past the hisssssssssss. 



Sarthos said:


> (I believe the MS8 has optical input?)


Still waiting on that one.



Sarthos said:


> Otherwise, if you're willing to run two separate units, one for audiophile sound quality and the other for navigation, *you have a LOT of choices*.


Oh yeah! [Still gotta do your own volume control though (generally speaking )]


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Toys7505 - yes I agree that cabin acoustics ultimately plays a large role in the total sound - but preamp sound quality on its own is also a major factor, especially where a head unit also acts as a DAC, there's plenty of room for differences in sound quality right there in the head unit.


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

KrackerG - I had the F1 7990 in my last car. It was OK - but I wasn't the biggest fan to be honest. Kind of garish and low-end build quality.


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Sound Suggestions - What don't you like about your eclipse?


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## Sarthos (Oct 29, 2010)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Noise floor will always trump psychoacoustics though, can't look past the hisssssssssss.


I thought it was clear that I was being sarcastic. Every time I see a thread like this it always seems someone says "I bought this Eonon/Dual/Kenwood/etc low end model for 120 bucks on ebay and it sounds good!!!!!111one" so I figured I'd add in a sarcastic remark about them.





t3sn4f2 said:


> Still waiting on that one.


Dang. Seriously?





t3sn4f2 said:


> Oh yeah! [Still gotta do your own volume control though (generally speaking )]


True. But if sound quality is extremely important to you, a single-DIN flip-out with NAV, and a good single DIN receiver will kick arse.


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Sarthos - Are there even any new alpine F1 status products? Looks like the site is shut down. Honestly I'm not that impressed with alpine at all. Aren't there any higher end manufacturers out there? Would be cool if there was a Mark Levinson piece or something


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Sarthos -

You say:

"True. But if sound quality is extremely important to you, a single-DIN flip-out with NAV, and a good single DIN receiver will kick arse."

To me this setup sounds kind of cheesy. How about a double DIN nav with a high end dac and a preamp section competitive with the best on the market? Shouldn't this product exist? It's OK if it costs some money...


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## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

hifitodd said:


> Sound Suggestions - What don't you like about your eclipse?


The Bluetooth section is not the best in my opinion, that's pretty much it. On the flip side I'm trying to go with a 3way up front (active) I'd like to retain the crossover points in the head unit. The eclipse has a front rear and sub out (at 5volt granted) the 99rs has 4 assignable RCA outs with full control. Not in a hurry for the change but once I get something in mind...hard to change after, you know car audio disease!


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## KrackerG (Jan 18, 2011)

i dont think eclipse stereos are on par with alpine, who has been banging out hi end head units since the beginning of time. some eclipses are decents, others are poor...it can be hit or miss.

i had a real nice clarion (forgot the model #) but it was pricey $$$ and somewhat basic as in features, but besides that, it was my second fav. 

i feel you cant go wrong with alpine! ALPINE, FTW!!!


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## KrackerG (Jan 18, 2011)

..., heres my current headunit setup! somewhat a double din, Alpine 7940 and 3362 EQ


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## jbreddawg (Dec 28, 2009)

I believe you give up on alot of the stereo functions in order to have nav. I just went through a couple of units starting with a stock scion nav unit "made by alpine,same internal setups and function as eclipse"
Then tried a Pioneer Avic-F90BT. 
The problem I found with them is the stereo functions are extremely basic . Everything gave way for the nav. 
I was going to try the Eclipse AVN-726E but found through research it was not much better then the others and did not warrant the 6-800.00 price tag. 

I ended up purchasing an Eclipse CD5030 and am going back to single din. I may step up to the CD7200 once I get the rest of my system complete. 

I have not tried the Kenwoods or alpines so cannot comment on those. Others may chime in.

I'll just keep using my garmin


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## lancewhitefield (Sep 29, 2009)

Take a look at Kenwood Excelon 9960 all around good unit - good preouts - Garmin navigation - Parrot bluetooth. My next vote would be to wait on the Alpine IVA - 910, the Alpine IVA - 505 is a good unit but the P - 1 (bluetooth and navigation) is horrible you can always use the BT-350 or 400 and a seperate navigatiion - the 505 does have fiber out.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

Kenwoods are suppose to be the best right now in all aspects.


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## FAUEE (Jul 22, 2010)

IMO, the best way to get high SQ in a double DIN is to run something like the MS in addition to it, or run a carPC and some DSP software from that.

The fact is that the nav systems sells in far larger quantity than the high end SQ stuff, and as is the American way we continually demand things be cheaper and more stripped except for the basic features we want.

I remember when the AVIC-D3 came out, a nav system for $1k was unheard of back then. Now it's commonplace, and only the highest end nav systems cost that much. Add to that the fact that in many cases OEM units are as good as or better than aftermarket ones and you've got quite the conundrum.

In your case, I'd personally stick with the OEM nav and run an MS8 or similar DSP.


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## Hardwrkr (Jan 18, 2008)

Stick with the stock HU and add a suitable processor after it (as stated by another). It make sense to us that since an 800PRS and a seperate Garmin can be had cheap then combining the two would be a great option. But it doesn't exist yet. The Pioneer 4200DVD has a good DAC, 4v outputs, and a decent EQ (8-band) but you're not going to run a 3-way active off the crossovers. You'll find the crossover section lacking in every NAV unit right now for your application.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

Hardwrkr said:


> Stick with the stock HU and add a suitable processor after it (as stated by another). It make sense to us that since an 800PRS and a seperate Garmin can be had cheap then combining the two would be a great option. But it doesn't exist yet. The Pioneer 4200DVD has a good DAC, 4v outputs, and a decent EQ (8-band) but you're not going to run a 3-way active off the crossovers. You'll find the crossover section lacking in every NAV unit right now for your application.


Really? Have you looked at the processing built into the Kenwood DNX9960? I assume not.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

SQ in a car is an illusion that fades as soon as you start the motor... 

But hey, if you've got the pockets to support it..


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## Hardwrkr (Jan 18, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> Really? Have you looked at the processing built into the Kenwood DNX9960? I assume not.


You assume wrong. Good luck running a 3-way active off of LP and HP crossovers that go no higher than 250Hz and no bandpass options.


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## MaXaZoR (Apr 1, 2007)

I like my Kenwood Excelon


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

Hardwrkr said:


> You assume wrong. Good luck running a 3-way active off of LP and HP crossovers that go no higher than 250Hz and no bandpass options.


Well, the funny part is the OP doesn't need a fully active headunit. He wants the best sounding double din NAV unit to pair with an MS8.

Did you even read the OP? 

Lastly, this Kenwood unit has far exceeded every other double din NAV unit on the market in every aspect...by far!!


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Thanks guys for all the food for thought. I'll make some more comments in a bit - but this one is completely off base:

"SQ in a car is an illusion that fades as soon as you start the motor...

But hey, if you've got the pockets to support it.. "

First of all, this is a car audio forum, so why make a post that just says "car audio sucks!" ?? 

2nd of all - Yeah, car audio does suck compared to what you can do outside a car, of course, I have probably around $30-40k in my home system and spend time in high end audio shops all the time listening to various stuff, Wilsons, Kharmas, Revels, Magnepans, Magicos, etc. Obviously if you have a real acoustic space and good quality stuff car audio will suck compared to it... but what are you going to do on the way to the high-end audio stores??? 

I'd prefer to listen to my music and have it sound as good as possible - given the circumstances of a v8 motor killing the noise floor and horrible horrible acoustic environments!


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> SQ in a car is an illusion that fades as soon as you start the motor...
> 
> But hey, if you've got the pockets to support it..


You may raise the noise floor when you start the motor but you don't go deaf. Stupid statement.


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Jimmy - Yes you're right on track, thanks - as I have the MS8 I don't need any xover functions in the head unit - just the best sounding dac (2 channels), cleanest preamp section, best nav and highest build quality.

Short order, I know!


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

As a side note - I wish McIntosh made one! I have their 6-channel amp boxed and ready to go (MCC406M), and I really like their home audio stuff (MC402 is a great sounding amp and they have really nice pres).

Where is there double din Nav head, with real high-end audio engineering built in?

Shout out to Burmester, Krell, McIntosh, Simaudio, Ayre, etc. - Please make a high end car audio double din head - I want to buy one!


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## bjohnson (Jan 25, 2011)

Has anyone checked out the Alpine INA-W900?


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Looking at the Alpine INA-W900 - Looks OK, but I'm thinking a bit meh - build quality seems pretty low, a lot of plastic... the map on the NAV seems like an old Tom-Tom - not too "next gen", not sure about the music interface - I'd rather not have touch screen controls on my music.

Looks like a decent piece for $750 - but What I'm looking for is something to really get excited about - with a budget of up to $5,000


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

jimmy2345 said:


> Kenwoods are suppose to be the best right now in all aspects.



Jimmy, can you please explain what sets the kenwoods apart from others?


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Hardwrkr - I looks like the Pioneer 4200DVD is no longer on the market?


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## Mark the Bold (May 28, 2010)

Here's my navi / SQ setup. Pioneer 880prs deck + TomTom 5" GPS. No wires, and looks slick. I get lots of compliments for it.

I love the 880prs deck for its active crossovers and user interface, and TomTom IMHO is the best GPS on the market from my years of experience with GPS's. I need the 5" screen because of my gorilla fingers.

Most car makers make a dashkit with DIN pockets insertable; I just fastened the sticky backed mount pad upside down in that pocket. It blocks my stock truck clock but my GPS clock is always more accurate anyway.

Anyway, thought this might help and save you some cash. I got my 5" Tomtom lifetime map update GPS over the holidays for $89 shipped from amazon. So I say invest in a slick single DIN SQ headunit and get a seperate GPS and mount it like this to get the best functionality of both worlds without experimenting with wonky GPS support from ALpine / CLarion / Pioneer.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

jimmy2345 said:


> Really? Have you looked at the processing built into the Kenwood DNX9960? I assume not.


Jimmy, I looked at the owners manual, and I can not find anything about this unit that sets it apart from the rest. Can you please highlight some points that helps supports your opinion


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

Buy the Kenwood 9960.. That's the closest piece to what your looking for.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

jimmy2345 said:


> Well, the funny part is the OP doesn't need a fully active headunit. He wants the best sounding double din NAV unit to pair with an MS8.
> 
> Did you even read the OP?
> 
> Lastly, this Kenwood unit has far exceeded every other double din NAV unit on the market in every aspect...by far!!




Jimmy, do you own this unit? Did you evaluate..."every other double din NAV unit on the market in every aspect"? It's my understanding, to evaluate the nav features the units would need to be installed in a car(s), how did you pull at one off? So, is this your personal opinion, or something you heard or read?


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Mark the Bold - Thanks for sharing your pics. I'm glad you like your setup - But I've got to say that attaching a standalone GPS to the dash is definitely not for me.


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Angry - What about the Kenwood 9960 sets it apart from the competition? Can I get a clean 4V line out from it? What about the preamp section makes it more transparent than others? How responsive are the controls, and how do you find the UI design?


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## Mark the Bold (May 28, 2010)

hifitodd said:


> Mark the Bold - Thanks for sharing your pics. I'm glad you like your setup - But I've got to say that attaching a standalone GPS to the dash is definitely not for me.


Too ghetto for your S4? Heh. I understand. It is a $60k car after all. 

Us swarthy peasants can only dream....


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Just a little bit ghetto LOL, but I'm sure it's very functional


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

hifitodd said:


> Angry - What about the Kenwood 9960 sets it apart from the competition? Can I get a clean 4V line out from it? What about the preamp section makes it more transparent than others? How responsive are the controls, and how do you find the UI design?


It has a clean 5 volt signal, and great dacs. Not to mention the best NAV software in Garmin. There is a reason they retail for more than their competitors and still outsell them. You won't find a better DD headunit with NAV. That is, if SQ is what you are after.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

jimmy2345 said:


> It has a clean 5 volt signal, and great dacs. Not to mention the best NAV software in Garmin. There is a reason they retail for more than their competitors and still outsell them. You won't find a better DD headunit with NAV. That is, if SQ is what you are after.[/Q
> 
> 
> 
> You say it out sells the rest, where can I find some info that supports your statement


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Jimmy - Thanks. Sounds like it's a pretty decent unit. Could be a contender


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> I'd wait for the Alpine INA-W9*1*0.


Worth mentioning again.........


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Any idea on ETA on the Alpine INA-W910? Also - what is unique about it?


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## Bugstyvy (Jan 16, 2011)

I had a Clarion vz409 and I did not like it at all!!! Interface was horrible, sound? meh...


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

hifitodd said:


> Any idea on ETA on the Alpine INA-W910? Also - what is unique about it?


Dunno, the ETA might have been mentioned in this thread.

As for the difference between this one and the W900. This one is supposed to have a stronger better quality analog output section.


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Any idea what it can do better than the Kenwood 9960?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Naw sorry, I haven't researched the other products. I just suggested that unit based on your opening post about needing a great sounding DD. You should be able to get that in any of the higher models out there.


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## Hardwrkr (Jan 18, 2008)

hifitodd said:


> Hardwrkr - I looks like the Pioneer 4200DVD is no longer on the market?


It's now the 4300DVD for 2011.

I'd reply to jimmy's lame angry posts but considering he's banned now it seems pointless.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I like my pioneer z110bt (with upgraded z120 firmware).


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Jimmy got banned? What happened? Nothing to do with this thread, right?


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

jimmy2345 said:


> You may raise the noise floor when you start the motor but you don't go deaf. Stupid statement.



Stupid.... Really.... 


One might not go deaf, but a considerable amount of the work you just did, went out the window... 

Hit the highway, even worse... 

**** you stupid..


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

hifitodd said:


> Jimmy got banned? What happened? Nothing to do with this thread, right?


Possibly for retardation??


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

With all due respect Aaron - please take the anger to another thread. This one is about head units.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

hifitodd said:


> Jimmy got banned? What happened? Nothing to do with this thread, right?


That guy was waaaay out of control. He would never post about any of his equipment, I bet he doesn't even own a car


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

hifitodd said:


> With all due respect Aaron - please take the anger to another thread. This one is about head units.


with all due respect, i was disrespected..


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Anyway - back on topic, other than the Kenwood, and Pioneer, is there anything else we can round up for the top tier heads?


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> with all due respect, i was disrespected..



You, and how many others... He tried to call the police on me


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Honestly, they're all viable options. Every top tier dd head is probably a good candidate. At this point it comes down to GUI and your tastes regarding it. I recommend finding dealers in your area and trying them out in person before making a decision. I wouldn't let "sound quality" be a factor here as they all can hold their own; plus you're putting an automated processor downstream...


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

bikin - Yes you're right the interface on these is huge and trying it out ahead of time will be key. I'm not a big fan of the local car audio shops that I've been to but maybe I can track down a new one...

I agree with you to a point about not worrying too much about the sound quality given I'll be doing some automated processing - but I still feel that transparency in the initial preamp stage plays an important role - I actually spent some time comparing phono preamps today had huge huge differences. To Aaron's point - yes noise floor is diminished in a car of course, but any gain stage is going to play a significant role in the sound ultimately


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

the point I'm really trying to convey here (as someone who changes gear like I change underwear) is that GUI is going to be a much more important factor than sound quality. The best way to pick the unit is to pick the one that has the preferred GUI (to you, of course). Sound quality in these units are all on par with each other. I wouldn't dare say one "sounds better" than the other. 

Personally, I've competed with the z110bt and took 3rd place in Modex last year, behind 2 of the best cars I've ever heard. I'd hang my hat on that DD's sound quality. I'm sure the kenwood's premiere unit is up there, too, as are the alpine units. At that point, you just have to choose the best fit for you, whether it be preference of GUI or features/accommodations. 

Until we see a DD headunit with all the bells and whistles and built specifically to be a "sound quality" headunit, I wouldn't concern myself with that aspect in the current market. Even then, I'd have to see some serious technical information as to what makes that particular headunit 'sound' better.


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

bikin - Thanks for sharing your knowledge yet again. I think I'm following you now!

I'll be considering the z110bt for sure. In the meantime, I'll be crossing my fingers for the Boulder level of double din preamp to come out!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

well, the z110bt has now been replaced by the z120bt and the z130bt is due out this summer, IIRC. 
But, if you're computer saavy, you can purchase the z110bt on the cheap and hack it (rather easily) for the upgrade to the z120bt firmware. 
The z130bt doesn't have anyhthing that interests me, so I personally see no reason to buy it and upgrade. That's just my opinion, though...

LMK when that boulder headunit arrives. lol. 


If the ms8 had optical input, this whole conversation would be steered another direction, though...
Also, have you considered the possibility of using alpine's new combo (w910 + h800) setup that has an improvement in their imprint software? It's not out yet, so no one can say how well it will work, but last I heard the release was going to be around April or so... if you're not in a rush, maybe it's worth the wait as you can go toslink into it and bypass the internal preamp altogether.


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Yes, ideally the MS8 would have a digital input. Seems like a bit of an oversight...


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

trojan fan said:


> You, and how many others... He tried to call the police on me


Really... wow... 


OP, sorry man, didn't mean anything by any of my comment in an "off" way to anyone but that guy... 

continue, sorry..


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

hifitodd said:


> Yes, ideally the MS8 would have a digital input. Seems like a bit of an oversight...


If you have a top tier DD and a quality processor like the MS-8 then there shouldn't be a difference between analog and digital transmission.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-truth-myths-industry-dogma/93757-digital-coax-d-a_a-d_d-amplifiers.html

After reading that thread, if you still believe that digital audio tranmission is supposed to sound better then analog, then I can show you a few links on digital audio that will put it in the dog house just as much as analog is. ie "jitter"

Here's one on the standard toslink S/PDIF format used to connect ANY device that have digital inputs. You can include with that USB inputs on any headunit since they fall under the same category. 

http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_USB_DAC_White_Paper.pdf

IMO, all of those short comings are still well below what the human ear can pick up. They don't mention that in those articles and none have proven otherwise in blind testing.


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

t3sn4f2 - It's not really about digital being "better" than analog, but I would just want to eliminate as many DA conversions as possible. If I'm reading a CD, converting it to analog, then sending it to the MS8, converting it back to digital and then back to analog - it would be nice to just go digital from the source into the MS8


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Aaron - no worries at all man. I didn't have a problem with him, but it sounds like he was a douche to a number of people so...


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

hifitodd said:


> t3sn4f2 - It's not really about digital being "better" than analog, but I would just want to eliminate as many DA conversions as possible. If I'm reading a CD, converting it to analog, then sending it to the MS8, converting it back to digital and then back to analog - *it would be nice to just go digital from the source into the MS8*


It would complicate the setup tremendously though with nothing to gain.

-You'd loose the ability to send all but CD and maybe USB sources through the digital out.

-You'd loose all volume control from the head unit and the steering wheel.

-You'd have to switch sources from the head unit and from the processor to match, each and every time.

-You'd have to use the processor master volume control exclusively and thus mount it nearby.

Completely understandable compromises in some more budget setups. But if it were me though and I was going to use a high end DD, I would not go digital over analog even if the MS-8 came out with a digital mod tomorrow.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

^ agreed. x10.


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## FAUEE (Jul 22, 2010)

You might want to think about the new PPI units. Grizz makes them sound like they'll be pretty top notch.

I really do think that you'd be fine with your RNS-E and an MS8 or other processor. Audi has probably the best SQ factory radios out of anyone. I mean, they offer the B&O systems that would topple almost all high end aftermarket SQ systems.


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## hifitodd (Apr 24, 2010)

Yeah, sticking with the RNS-e is certainly an option. It's not terrible, but definitely has some issues of its own. Just wondering if there's something better out there. Most of what I've looked up seems to have some pretty major usability compromises in one way or another

Thanks for the points on the digital vs analog thing - didn't think of all that


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## papabearsc (Oct 2, 2010)

FAUEE said:


> You might want to think about the new PPI units. Grizz makes them sound like they'll be pretty top notch.
> 
> I really do think that you'd be fine with your RNS-E and an MS8 or other processor. Audi has probably the best SQ factory radios out of anyone. I mean, they offer the B&O systems that would topple almost all high end aftermarket SQ systems.


Where would one find info on these new units?


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## FAUEE (Jul 22, 2010)

Grizz was talking about them in the SQ forum in the PPI amps thread. Unfortunately there's a ton of other BS in there too. But they have them listed on their website.


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