# 8 or 10



## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

Is there a 8 or 10 inch pro midbass driver that will work in a very well sealed and dieden door, I don't want to build a box in side the door. It would be replacing JL ZR800. Thanks.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

beyma 8ndl51 comes to mind instantly, but before you replace the jl, I'd like to ask why? they are great midbasses, and the only reason I'd replace them personally is if I needed frequency response up higher to meet horns.


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## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

Yes I am entertaining the idea of horns. As everyone knows the Jl just don't play high enough.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Beyma 8G40 is what the [person above was suggesting, The B&C 8ndl51 is a good driver also but not available in 4 ohms.

None of the pro audio midbass will play as low as the JL but they will have higher sensitivity and alot higher output above the knee of the roll off on the bottom end. Any decent pro driver can make it strong to the 70 to 80 Hz range so not an issue to get them to blend well with the subs.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

good catch! theres another beyma eight that has a bit more excursion at the expense of power handling that I actually meant..but I cant find its model number now.


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## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

How would it work if I went with 12 inch midbass behind the seats? Should I let the zr800 play, or unhook them?


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## DC/Hertz (Nov 27, 2011)

Go big or go home. Put a pair of these in the front doors muhaaa. 
Voice Optimized Woofer


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I have or have had beyma 8s and 10s 
B&C 8s and 10s 
And celestion 6-8-10s 
And a few audax models and some eminence models 

The g40s sound the best IMO in 8" 
By far the smoothest vocals I've ever heard in a car 
And for a HE woofer they play decently low. 

As far as g40s go the 8" sounds better than the 10. 
The 10 falls off around 400hz and is more laid back in a sence 
I would go for the 8g40. It's extremely hard to de disappointed with that driver 

And if you do get it a Sq hint it likes to be gained low. You don't need to dump a ton of power into it although it needs a bit of headroom to sound good (meaning it won't sound good if you crank the gain to force a responce below 125hz ) so no 50w amps plz 
Give it 100 true watts and you'll enjoy it a lot


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## GEM592 (Jun 19, 2015)

What's your pick for best HE 6.5? (Particularly one that will play reasonably low)


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

GEM592 said:


> What's your pick for best HE 6.5? (Particularly one that will play reasonably low)


6ND430

It's a badass and plays low and can handle a holy crap ton of power 

And I've hunted for this kind of speaker for a long time ....this is the one that does it all in 6-1/2. 

A close 2nd is the 6NDL38 by B&C however it's 8ohm where the 18sound is 4ohm


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## GEM592 (Jun 19, 2015)

oabeieo said:


> 6ND430
> 
> It's a badass and plays low and can handle a holy crap ton of power
> 
> ...


Thanks much appreciated. I would have never found that.


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## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

Any experience with JBL 2118h


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

t-roy said:


> Any experience with JBL 2118h


Yes. Own a set I'm currently doing a full rebuild on with new powder coating 
And new OE recones 


It's amazing above 300hz but can't get low.

In a enclosure it can play to about 100 but it's mostly the box ringing that makes the output not the radiation. 

Mated with a jbl annular ring CD it's the best sound I've ever heard in a car from 630-2k but just lacks down low. 

The cones are flimsy thin and has low xmax and wasn't designed to go much lower than about 250-300hz (unless you like distortion) 

The 8g40 has a smoother 125-800hz response and makes it a better fit for a horn 


If it were in a home situation where the sub could play up to 250hz I would definitely use the 2118 over the g40 only because I like crossing my horns around 1.6k 


But for crossovers in car around 1k or lower the g40 really is a solid choice it performs well up to 1k, it will play higher than 1k but after 1k it has stop band attinuation issues, meaning the acoustic crossover wants to go beyond the electric one and has some noticeable breakup modes as it approaches 2k 
Where as the 2118 is just getting going at2k


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## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

Ok thanks


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

with the sub up front, you could play it to a higher low-pass frequency. that way, you can cross the doors higher and you don't have to deal with all the door-mounted driver challenges.

6nd430 is a cool driver.


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## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

I will mess with crossover points to see how the sub sounds


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

t-roy said:


> Any experience with JBL 2118h


Don't put too much stock into the one review posted here, the JBL's are indeed a bad ass driver when mounted in the appropriate enclosures, and given a proper tune.

Steve Head (audionuts) uses them in his Blazer which has been getting rave reviews at the big shows. He has them mated up with a 6" midrange, and 15" subwoofers, so they must be doing just fine in the midbass department.

It's all about application and install. If you only spend a couple of hours installing and tuning them, then they probably won't live up to their potential. It takes time and effort. 

You can read about his Blazer here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/12-volt-events-team-diyma/297426-meca-iasca-dbdrag-unified-finals-2016-a-6.html


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Could any he be used in a more traditional 2 way?


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

SQram said:


> Don't put too much stock into the one review posted here, the JBL's are indeed a bad ass driver when mounted in the appropriate enclosures, and given a proper tune.
> 
> Steve Head (audionuts) uses them in his Blazer which has been getting rave reviews at the big shows. He has them mated up with a 6" midrange, and 15" subwoofers, so they must be doing just fine in the midbass department.
> 
> ...



When I had my midbasses in small sealed boxes with a 15db gain at100-125hx people LOvED them....but it's wasn't correct and very colored sounding. 

Steve head.....so what... he wouldn't be the 1st person to make a 2118 work as midbass , that's not that hard really. Just need that box tho...:/ 


Not to say his car isn't nice I never listened to it. But in no way just because Steve head made the 2118h work in one install does that proclaim it better...

The 2118 is a bad ass just like you say, 
The g40 just does better and doesn't need an enclosure ( with extra emphasis on bass frequencies not midrange ) the 2118 is a better midrange sure , 
The g40 will still play to 1k with just as much fidelity 
Otoh if the g40 was in a proper enclosure it would knock the socks off the jbl when it comes to midbass performance. Let the specs speak for themselves


It's not a matter which is better it's a matter how you implement it.

Can the sub play past 90hz and still sound good?



Sqram : what's up buddy?  is this a new screen name or a different user ?


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

My point is that it has ample output below 300Hz. when installed properly, contrary to what you wrote above.



oabeieo said:


> It's amazing above 300hz but can't get low.
> 
> In a enclosure it can play to about 100 but it's mostly the box ringing that makes the output not the radiation.
> 
> The cones are flimsy thin and has low xmax and wasn't designed to go much lower than about 250-300hz (unless you like distortion)


Stuffing the 2118 in a small sealed box and boosting the lower frequencies is a bad idea, it's no wonder it didn't sound good. Most people run them either A/P or I/B and let them breathe. Are there other options to consider? Of course, but don't post misinformation regarding the 2118 because you didn't install them properly.

No, this isn't a new screen name.


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## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

As much as I would like to use the 2118 I think it would hit the window track. The Beyma or B&C would be easier to fit.


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## truckguy (Sep 2, 2013)

Eric Stevens said:


> Beyma 8G40 is what the [person above was suggesting, The B&C 8ndl51 is a good driver also but not available in 4 ohms.
> 
> None of the pro audio midbass will play as low as the JL but they will have higher sensitivity and alot higher output above the knee of the roll off on the bottom end. Any decent pro driver can make it strong to the 70 to 80 Hz range so not an issue to get them to blend well with the subs.


This guy right here has some pro 8's and other goodies coming out at some point. You can see a few prototypes in the HLCD area in a few threads.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

SQram said:


> My point is that it has ample output below 300Hz. when installed properly, contrary to what you wrote above.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol that's cute.

So I used 4 different boxes 
.4 sealed .7 sealed 
.4 ported .7 ported 

The smaller sealed boxes had the most amount of midbass output
OTOH the larger ported box sounded the least colored .
The issue was linear xmax is so small it would sound fantastic at lower volumes 

I prefer things a little bit louder and it just exceeded the physical limitations of the speaker . 






Misinformation? 

How so? 
How can an opinion be misinformation ? 

How can physical parameters between two drivers ( that I did not list I just urged you them out for yourself ) be even an argument.


I never said anything about boosting lower frequencies if anything that is Misinformation , 

To clarify what I actually said I said throwing in a small tiny sealed box would give it up to 15 DB gain to clarify what I actually said I said throwing in a small tiny sealed box would give it Up To15 DB gain at 100-125hz , I was referring to the box ringing. And making a point that everybody that listened to that enclosure loved them , well I thought it sounded colored and resonance.



Don't bother quoting me. It's pointless. 
I think I'm going to give this forum a indefinitely long break. 






SQram said:


> the JBL's are indeed a bad ass driver when mounted in the appropriate enclosures, and given a proper tune.



Okay so now it's AP/IB ---I thought you just said they need to be in the right enclosure 


Man, that's really gay how you take a good intellectual argument and turn it into a personal attack.

If your the sqram I've talked to before on here that had the vertas horns and tried all kinds of drivers like the TAD. Dood what happened! Your being mean! I thought we were friends 

If your not the same sqram and someone else also called sqram , you sure do react to things the wrong way. 


I'm done.....it's been fun for sure.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

I'll keep it short because I'm not here to get in a pissing match, nor am I attacking you. This is what I'm referring too.



oabeieo said:


> The cones are flimsy thin and has low xmax *and wasn't designed to go much lower than about 250-300hz* (unless you like distortion)


That's hardly written like an opinion. Here is a quip from the JBL 2118 design sheet:



So you tell me who's right? To somebody who doesn't know any better, they might overlook the 2118 when in fact it does quite well in that passband in the right circumstances. I mentioned Steve Head because he is well known in the industry, and his success using the 2118 carries more weight than my opinion. Mark Eldridge is another, the list goes on.

And just to clear things up, I'm not comparing the 2118 to anything, I said above that there are plenty of options out there.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

SQram said:


> I'll keep it short because I'm not here to get in a pissing match, nor am I attacking you. This is what I'm referring too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So I never said it can't play to 70. It just had limited output and the box ringing was louder than most would desire in a car. 

Man I own a set and used them for almost a year as midbass, no one is denying it's isn't a good midbass....but as a midbass the beyma performed better. 
Didn't "need" an enclosure to get ample output and the sound was largely un-colored 

Even with its smaller xmax sure put it in a ported box to control movement and it can be good , I was just making the point the beyma just works better. 


Sorry wasn't trying to diminish steves build , again we all know Steve can build some great things it's wasn't meant to discredit him, but it was a "so what if he uses it it's a good speaker" kinda statement. 

That's where I think you were over reacting, 
Anyway. Got to work. Ttys


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

oabeieo said:


> So I never said it can't play to 70.


Here's what you previously posted:



oabeieo said:


> It's amazing above 300hz but *can't get low*.





oabeieo said:


> The cones are flimsy thin and has low xmax and *wasn't designed to go much lower than about 250-300hz*


You are clearly contradicting yourself. Again, I'm not here to attack you, rather defend the 2118 which is an outstanding driver.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

SQram said:


> Here's what you previously posted:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Although it can "play" to 70 doesn't mean that was it's focus if it was the manufacturer intent to have it a monster at 70hz they wouldn't have given it so little xmax and a FS of 70+\- . It was meant to be more of a midrange than a midbass although it will play midbass it does midrange better. 

So I'm not contradicting myself. It's design isn't focused at 70hz ....but to be fair the beyma design isn't that either except it has more usable travel and a more solid cone that doesn't have breakup modes below 300hz. 

I was saying below 250-300hz it increasingly becomes less usable as frequency falls....

The beyma has the same issues however it doesn't happen till about 125hz 

This is out of extensive experience with both drivers. And that is where I was talking about opinion. Good attempt at spinning my words , please read the entire post in its context and the reader should have clearly got that out of it ..

And the cones are thin and flimsy as hell! They have a horrible breakup modes under 300hz even if your sealed box that rings so bad that's all you can hear. 
Go get it. It's all you. ever wonder why no one keeps that diver installed ? Ever ask yourself that? I don't know anyone that uses a 8" midrange in a car


The 2118 is a amazing driver, I've said it multiple times. So it does seem more like an attack. I could care less what anyone puts in there cars, however if someone asks the difference between two driver I try to be honest. And between the g40 and the jbl the g40 has better midbass under300hz there's no argument 
I never said the jbl is a turd ....your the one misinterpreting or purposely defending ....nothing. There's nothing to "defend" it's a good speaker we get that already ...sorry it's just not the best when using a single speaker to play 70-1k there are better that's all....but that's subjective of course so no one wins..
If you like breakup modes and distortion than listen to it. oR don't get much past 90db and be happy


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

I'm done arguing, I'll just let you do the talking...




oabeieo said:


> So I'm not contradicting myself.





oabeieo said:


> And the cones are thin and flimsy as hell! They have a horrible breakup modes under 300hz even if your sealed box that rings so bad that's all you can hear.





oabeieo said:


> The 2118 is a amazing driver, I've said it multiple times.





oabeieo said:


> I never said the jbl is a turd





oabeieo said:


> If you like breakup modes and distortion than listen to it. oR don't get much past 90db and be happy


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

SQram said:


> I'm done arguing, I'll just let you do the talking...




From the bits and pieces you quoted from what I actually said 
In context , it says the jbl is a good speaker. It also says there's quite a bit of things to concider before using a set and expecting exceptional midbass performance. OR just use a more capable driver and be done with it and not have to worry about building a perfect enclosure. That's the jist of it 

Anyway I'm done arguing too. 

Friends? That is more important than a silly argument over a speaker (at least to me) I certainly hope so


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I still love the jbls though... short comings and all.

Hey guys!


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

I have some experience with the 2118 in my car, a friends car and in my primary home speakers for years. If you want to learn about JBLs go to the Lansing Heritage website. This is where all the JBL experts live.
Lansing Heritage Forums 

Lets review some FACTS about the 2118. It is a midrange PA speaker, NOT a mid-bass. It has 3.05mm of xmax. I think they must mean linear travel here because the xmax to damage is much higher. But with that comes increasing distortion.
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/thiele small parameters/theile parameters.pdf

It has an Fs of 85Hz. Typically (but not always) midranges don't work well near their Fs. The typical rule is to double the Fs to get the lowest crossover.

In practice for home HiFi use these are not used below 300Hz. Look at the response curve. The 2118 is down 10db by the time you get to 80Hz.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2118.pdf

We also know that car audio competitors sometimes don't give 100% accurate descriptions of their cars audio setup for several reasons. 

Also I remember reading an article where Steve said he varied the crossover from 80 to 160Hz. I also remember reading here (DIYMA) or possibly Elite Audio that someone who was listening to Steve Head's car put his hand on the speaker and ‘thought’ it seemed to be crossed at 160Hz.

So what is my experience? In my home I ran them at 300 @12db. A home is a much better listening environment than a car. And distortion in the speakers can be heard more easily than a car. In a car (imo) you can get away with a little more distortion.


So based on my personal experience the 2118 works extremely well to 300Hz, and for car use [email protected] is acceptable. How do they sound at 160Hz? Pretty freaking good. Very very snappy. Could you use it to 80Hz? Sure but it would not be ideal. There are better speaker for that purpose.


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## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

I went with 2206h for the midbass and 2118 for the midrange. The midbass hit will take your breath away it is amazing. The midrange I have to work on sounds good but I really need to do some more tuning on them. Thanks for all your opinions.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

It is amazing what a 12" PA midbass like the 2206 can do. After listening to it every other speaker seems to be producing faux bass. The difference between sitting next to a set of drum or listening to someone hit a cardboard box with a drum stick. The difference is that amazing.

One time I was giving a demo to a friend in my car. While the mid-bass is destroying everything in the car my friend turned around to see that my midbass is only moving an 1/8 inch...total. He then looked at me and said 'that's retarded'. 


Problem is I think it is going to be very difficult to match those with a standard 6.5" midrange.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

t-roy said:


> I went with 2206h for the midbass and 2118 for the midrange. The midbass hit will take your breath away it is amazing. The midrange I have to work on sounds good but I really need to do some more tuning on them. Thanks for all your opinions.


Gosh I would love to hear that! 



thehatedguy said:


> I still love the jbls though... short comings and all.
> 
> Hey guys!


There's no shortcomings. None. 

I think I just preach loud too much at times.
I need watch how I word things  


I just installed the 2408h back in, 
So I had to throw the 2118h back in also playing down to 300
That combo is frikkin deadly. Mids just do not give up 
And the 2.5k octave just rips. Me likeee a lot


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## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

And the amps don't even get warm. The amps are rated at 125 watts at 4 ohms, got to be getting a lot less at 8 ohms. but so much louder with efficient speakers. So glad I went with them. Now to start working on the horns.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Impressive! Do you have more pics?


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## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

If all goes well this weekend I should be able to get some more.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

t-roy said:


> If all goes well this weekend I should be able to get some more.


Gimme

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk


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## estione (Jul 24, 2009)

t-roy said:


> If all goes well this weekend I should be able to get some more.


:lurk::lurk:


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## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

Sorry to take so long . I will get more.


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## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

And more pics sorry for the mess we have had rain all week. Horns underdash,8 inch midrange in the doors, 12 inch midbass behind the seats.


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## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

The amps are the new Phoenix Gold SX . They replaced two ti2 five channel amps. They started to develop issues.


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

neat. did one of the horn flanges crack during install?


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## t-roy (Jan 18, 2007)

Yes I will fix it better this winter


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