# Arc Audio KS125.4 MINI



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

Finally. 

Have it next to the current KS125.2 MINI. The KS125.4 MINI is below the KS125.2 MINI.

Please don't ask for guts, I'm not sure if opening the top will void warranty for the customers

A bit larger than expected, you can see how much longer it is than the KS125.2 MINI. But still extremely reasonable compared to the KS125.2 MINI's size.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

What are the dimentions?


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

got mine in too!!
looks great!


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## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

AAAAAAA said:


> What are the dimentions?


*A little search on the forums* and please thank Fred Lynch for this.











Height: 43.18mm (1.7-inches)
Width: 130.8mm (5.15-inches)
Length: 294.64mm (11.6-inches)


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

I'm REALLY loving these new Arc mini's!! Kudo's to the guys at Arc for offering these to the masses! If I decide to actually do an install in the convertible then I'm going to use these amps just because of their size. The size/weight of gear is the only reason I haven't done an install in there as of yet.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

These are the only non Class D I would ever buy. Not as much because of their size but more for the efficiency gains over standard class A/B.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Mine are still waiting for me to pick them up.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> These are the only none Class D I would ever buy. Not as much because of their size but more for the efficiency gains over standard class A/B.


They're not class D.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> These are the only *non* Class D I would ever buy. Not as much because of their size but more for the efficiency gains over standard class A/B.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Sorry I can't see the posted specs at work, is it as much or more power then the 2 channel one?


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## stopdrpnro (May 15, 2008)

drool


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

AAAAAAA said:


> Sorry I can't see the posted specs at work, is it as much or more power then the 2 channel one?


Same power per channel, just 2 extra channels.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Yippee, my 125.4 and 125.2 are out for delivery as we speak. Should have both in hand this evening if all goes well with UPS.  

Just wanted to share my excitement over the 125.4


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

You're going to like them bro. I had a chance to mess with some of the Arc mini's this past weekend. They are even smaller in person than you would think. Little power houses, that's a good description for them.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> You're going to like them bro. I had a chance to mess with some of the Arc mini's this past weekend. They are even smaller in person than you would think. Little power houses, that's a good description for them.


Yeah, I had two of the 125.2 mini's and like an idiot I sold them. Actually didn't loose any money on them, but still I should never have sold them. They are tiny, but at the time I wasn't wanting to cut my interior to install them and now I've given in and am planning to mount these on the rear wall where my small storage pockets are located. 

My extra storage bin under the rear seats will go back to being an extra storage bin hopefully.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

whats the going price on the 4-ch?


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

I'll let the original poster of this thread, 00poop6x, answer that as he is a dealer. Or maybe tr0y audi0 could answer as well as I think he may be a dealer for Arc also. 

I think the retail pricing has been posted somewhere on the forum already by Fred from Arc though.


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

Check the *>>Arc Audio Website<<* for your local Autho dealer or Call Arc Audio
Toll Free: (866) 258-0288
Retail
KS Mini 125.2 $329
KS Mini 125.4 $499
KS Mini 500.1 $529


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## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

tr0y_audi0 said:


> Check the *>>Arc Audio Website<<* for your local Autho dealer or Call Arc Audio
> Toll Free: (866) 258-0288
> Retail
> KS Mini 125.2 $329
> ...


There is no info on the Arc website
Any spec info on the 500.1???


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## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

tr0y_audi0 said:


> Check the *>>Arc Audio Website<<* for your local Autho dealer or Call Arc Audio
> Toll Free: (866) 258-0288
> Retail
> KS Mini 125.2 $329
> ...


BINGO


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

mattldm said:


> There is no info on the Arc website
> Any spec info on the 500.1???


Well, some is there and you have to dig for it. Under the KS series amps, you can find the 125.2 mini. And, if you go to the pdf file available for it, it also contains info for the 125.4 in the manual for the 125.2.

Haven't seen anything specific on the 500.1 yet other than it was coming and they were ironing out final details or something. Seems like I remember a post from Fred stating they didn't know how much power they would have yet, but likely 500 or 600 watts. Guessing 500 by the name though.




*EDIT - * Knew I'd seen the post from Fred at Arc, and it was in this thread. Pics of the 500.1 and details:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42352


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## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

txbonds said:


> Well, some is there and you have to dig for it. Under the KS series amps, you can find the 125.2 mini. And, if you go to the pdf file available for it, it also contains info for the 125.4 in the manual for the 125.2.
> 
> Haven't seen anything specific on the 500.1 yet other than it was coming and they were ironing out final details or something. Seems like I remember a post from Fred stating they didn't know how much power they would have yet, but likely 500 or 600 watts. Guessing 500 by the name though.
> 
> ...


I checked out the PDF and it does have the specs for the 125.2 and 125.4 (but its missing the dimensions of the 4 channel)

Any idea if the 500.1 will come with a remote bass control knob? I'd like something smaller, but with a remote bass knob.

(I really like my Sundown 1000D but I have it mounted under the seat in my truck and it sticks out behind the seat... and with the RCA's connected its even worse!)


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## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

txbonds said:


> *EDIT - * Knew I'd seen the post from Fred at Arc, and it was in this thread. Pics of the 500.1 and details:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42352


Are there pics of the 500.1 in that thread? I only see pics of the 125.2, and not much info on the 500.1 (Unless im not awake yet and looked right past it! LOL)

*EDIT:* I found the post with the pics but they are not showing, Must be my work internet filter,


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

mattldm said:


> I checked out the PDF and it does have the specs for the 125.2 and 125.4 (but its missing the dimensions of the 4 channel)
> 
> Any idea if the 500.1 will come with a remote bass control knob? I'd like something smaller, but with a remote bass knob.
> 
> (I really like my Sundown 1000D but I have it mounted under the seat in my truck and it sticks out behind the seat... and with the RCA's connected its even worse!)




The Dimensions of the 125.4 are posted in this thread up above. There is an attachment with a blue schematic drawing of the 125.4 that includes dimensions. It's like the 4th post in this thread.

The 500.1 test sample that Fred posted pics of in the link I provided shows a remote bass port, so I can only imagine it would come with the corresponding knob and wire as their other amps featuring this option do. Although, I haven't seen one as they will sell/ship, so I'm just speculating.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Hey Look, it's the Elf Audio amps

www.elfaudio.com


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

mattldm said:


> Are there pics of the 500.1 in that thread? I only see pics of the 125.2, and not much info on the 500.1 (Unless im not awake yet and looked right past it! LOL)




Dude, are you even reading these posts? The pics of the 500.1 are in post number 18 on that link.........


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## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

Daishi said:


> Hey Look, it's the Elf Audio amps
> 
> www.elfaudio.com


Hmmm, How much are those, more or less than the Arc's?

Kinda like the Clarion Apx amps are the same as the KS series!?


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Daishi said:


> Hey Look, it's the Elf Audio amps
> 
> www.elfaudio.com


http://www.elfaudio.com/mtAmps.html

Yeah, this has been addressed and discussed over and over, and I've read everything from the Elf's will never see light of day to the fact that they are not identical copies on the inside where it counts. 

But based on the pictures on their website, they sure are trying hard to keep up with the Jones' as they say. Exterior controls are very similar and heatsink is pretty close.

Fred at Arc Audio has alluded to the fact that their attorneys are pursuing this as the design is proprietary to Arc. Not sure what the latest update on that is though.


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## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

txbonds said:


> Dude, are you even reading these posts? The pics of the 500.1 are in post number 18 on that link.........


See my edit above...


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

mattldm said:


> Hmmm, How much are those, more or less than the Arc's?
> 
> Kinda like the Clarion Apx amps are the same as the KS series!?


And the pic in my avatar is a shot of the internals of a cerwin vega exl400.4 which was same board design as the arc 4050 as I understand it.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

mattldm said:


> There is no info on the Arc website
> Any spec info on the 500.1???
> 
> Check the >>Arc Audio Website<< for your local Autho dealer or Call Arc Audio
> ...


Okay, I'm gonna just have to write this off as you need some coffee or something, but I saw you asked for pricing on the 500.1 on the other arc 125.2 thread, but yet earlier in this thread you responded and quoted to the post that included the price.

Got get a double venti espresso or something. LOL   


EDIT - DOH! Okay, i'm the one that needs more coffee. LOL You said street price. My guess is that it differs per dealer, but probably $25 off that price wouldn't be out of the question if you haggled with your local dealer a little. But, who knows, may go for straight retail.


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## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

txbonds said:


> Dude, are you even reading these posts? The pics of the 500.1 are in post number 18 on that link.........


Are the dimensions of the 500.1 the size of the 2 channel, the 4 channel or ?


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

Daishi said:


> Hey Look, it's the Elf Audio amps
> 
> www.elfaudio.com


DAMN!!! That took long...


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

3.5max6spd said:


> DAMN!!! That took long...


the pics on Elf site look the same. except for rounded heatsinks.. wonder if they're cheaper than Arcs?


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

placenta said:


> the pics on Elf site look the same. except for rounded heatsinks.. wonder if they're cheaper than Arcs?


I don't know that anyone has ever bought one, have they? Someone mentioned seeing Elf Audio on display at a show, but I've never seen anyone claim to have seen these things in the flesh sort of speak as an available product, so I'm wondering if they are even being sold anywhere at this point.

Wouldn't trade my Arc Mini's for them, but am curious to know how the talks that Fred mentioned are going with them.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

mattldm said:


> Are the dimensions of the 500.1 the size of the 2 channel, the 4 channel or ?


The 125.4 and the 500.1 are the same size. The share the width and height dimensions with the 125.2, but are 2" longer.

Cheaper or not, the Elf amps aren't the same on the inside as the Arc mini's so that should kill the comparison IMHO.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

placenta said:


> the pics on Elf site look the same. except for rounded heatsinks.. wonder if they're cheaper than Arcs?


One thing is for sure.(embedded from my trip to Disney)



"Its a small---world--- afterall..."


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

txbonds said:


> I don't know that anyone has ever bought one, have they? Someone mentioned seeing Elf Audio on display at a show, but I've never seen anyone claim to have seen these things in the flesh sort of speak as an available product, so I'm wondering if they are even being sold anywhere at this point.
> 
> Wouldn't trade my Arc Mini's for them, but am curious to know how the talks that Fred mentioned are going with them.


Arc's design house probably OEM'd it out like they did all their other amp designs, hence the Clarions, CV etc... Nikola Engineering changed their website a few months ago, where it showed Clarion, CV, Arc and a few others as companies they've designed for...now it's just Arc. Very interesting.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

Boostedrex said:


> Cheaper or not, the Elf amps aren't the same on the inside as the Arc mini's so that should kill the comparison IMHO.


Really? I was not aware this was determined as of yet.

Elf/ACT(a company from nowhere) go to the far east shopping for designs, like ANY marketeer company.

ARC is a marketeer branch for Robert Lin, the owner of UBUY Taiwan. I think its beyond the smoke and mirrors at this point that UBUY/Robert Zeff designs have been OEM for other companies-proof is in the pudding...Clarion clones, CV, ETON, etc..and who knows how many region centric companies over there. You can see on Nikola Engineering site how many other 12v companies Zeff designs for. UBUY is a manufacturing corporation, first and foremost. All I know is at the end of the day that business is about production runs, pushing units and making money.

So while i'm not personally attacking whats been said in this thread from the Arc affiliate, i certainly have little faith to believe it until I see a pair of boards in from of me with substantial differences to note. I too, long ago got fed the smoke and mirrors and belived it, paying to the tune of ~$900 each for my CXL amps 6 yrs ago. So yeah, you can say i lost a little faith in the company. At the same time, I'll stand by and I can honestly say I'm a big fan of the Zeff product I got from them- it was solid, performed great, sounded and looked good.

The problem here is that people are buying Mini's because of their size/power, and theres nothing quite like it in 12v atm. If theres another avenue to those same footprints/power...and arguably comes from the same buildhouse...the consumer has the option gauge what they consider a better value with said competition.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Couldn't have said it better myself. I really like the Zeff designs, but anyone who thinks that Arc is the company that comes up with these designs themselves is delusional. The build how in Asia makes them and they'll sell it to whoever requests product. There is nothing to say it won't be as high of quality either. It's just like saying the CV and Clarion clones were of lesser quality than the Arc models, which was pretty much debunked.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

3.5max6spd said:


> Really? I was not aware this was determined as of yet.
> 
> Elf/ACT(a company from nowhere) go to the far east shopping for designs, like ANY marketeer company.
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing that these probably use the same board layout and probably 99% of the components are the same too. But the difference that the processor programming happens in Modesto is what makes them different on the inside. Does that mean they're better or worse? I don't know as I've not tested either one of the amps. I also would like to state that I have no ties to Arc or Elf audio, I was just pointing out a fact. If the processors are different inside the amps then those amps aren't the same on the inside. 

I wasn't trying to imply that there were completely different boards inside the 2 amps or that Arc is the only company with those designs. Just wanted to clear that up.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Arc made similar claims on the last batch of clones to be released and was never able to bring any proof to the table then. Maybe the chips are different, but let's face it...not that hard to reverse engineer these things. Plus if Nikola is still doing the OEM on them who's to say they haven't been OEMing it out to other companies. Fred is the one that says it isn't happening...they said that about the Clarions, CV, Etons etc...and low and behold Nikola's own website showed those brands as companies they worked with. 

I'm not bashing Arc...I like their products, but I seriously don't believe almost anything that is said by their spokesperson. If they are the only company that has a legal right to the design then I hope they nail Elf and any other cloners, but if they're just one of many marketing companies for the product then they have nothing to ***** about.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Size is what brought me back to the mini's. I thought I had my install licked with a pdx-5 and it was just shy of fitting. Granted, a little surgery on the floor of my truck and some welding, etc. and I could have forced it, but that was beyond what I wanted to do. I did try some magical, rubber mallet persuasion, but it didn't do the trick even though the metal gave a little.

For me, the mini means I can get some decent power mounted onto my rear wall and inside of a factory storage pocket. I’ll be cutting out the back of the pocket, but still the tiny size is what makes me interested.

For all I know the Elf products may be exact clones. I just read Fred’s response that the interior wasn’t based on a few differences, but how would I know. Flip side is, I can buy Arc products now, but I’ve never seen an Elf dealer, or for that matter a true “Mini” amp competitor to consider.

Each their own I suppose. Space and money permitting and I’d be running Tru billets, or Sinfoni or something, but alas we all have our budgets.





3.5max6spd said:


> Really? I was not aware this was determined as of yet.
> 
> Elf/ACT(a company from nowhere) go to the far east shopping for designs, like ANY marketeer company.
> 
> ...


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## CRD (Apr 23, 2008)

placenta said:


> the pics on Elf site look the same. except for rounded heatsinks.. wonder if they're cheaper than Arcs?


They're half of the price, but are the internals the same???

http://www.carmedia1.com/index1.html


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Daishi said:


> Arc made similar claims on the last batch of clones to be released and was never able to bring any proof to the table then. Maybe the chips are different, but let's face it...not that hard to reverse engineer these things. Plus if Nikola is still doing the OEM on them who's to say they haven't been OEMing it out to other companies. Fred is the one that says it isn't happening...they said that about the Clarions, CV, Etons etc...and low and behold Nikola's own website showed those brands as companies they worked with.
> 
> I'm not bashing Arc...I like their products, but I seriously don't believe almost anything that is said by their spokesperson. If they are the only company that has a legal right to the design then I hope they nail Elf and any other cloners, but if they're just one of many marketing companies for the product then they have nothing to ***** about.


I completely understand. Sadly, I can't speak intelligently on the matter any further than what I've already stated as I don't have the first hand knowledge. But I will say that from my experiences with Arc products I have been impressed. Also, having met Fred and D at Arc I can say that they are both really cool guys and a pleasure to talk to.

Zach


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

Boostedrex said:


> I'm not arguing that these probably use the same board layout and probably 99% of the components are the same too. But the difference that the processor programming happens in Modesto is what makes them different on the inside. Does that mean they're better or worse? I don't know as I've not tested either one of the amps. I also would like to state that I have no ties to Arc or Elf audio, I was just pointing out a fact. If the processors are different inside the amps then those amps aren't the same on the inside.
> 
> I wasn't trying to imply that there were completely different boards inside the 2 amps or that Arc is the only company with those designs. Just wanted to clear that up.


Ok. This 'microprocessor' does exactly what? Just Monitors the protection circuits? And how do we (the consumer) know that the Elf amplifiers does not equip said microprocessor? Or one that satisfies the amplifiers need?
The same Class T microprocessor chips on the CXL/XXK were found on the Clarion clones, so what does that mean?Your post indicates that you believe word for word what is said by a marketeer's company affiliate.

Bottom line is Arc audio would rather it remain speculation as it directly affects its US business if these amps indeed come from the same build house and are for sale in the US. 

So the burden lies on the consumer to grab one and remove some screws. Or simply be happy forking over what Arc dealers charge for the Mini's and enjoy a nice product, from a company with good support.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

At the prices that the Elf's supposedly sell at I might try and get one just to see how "inferior" they are.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Do they actually have them in stock? The prices are pretty good. Wonder what the warranty and service support is for them?

Much cheaper than retail on the Arc's, but depending on your dealer maybe not so much more than street prices in the grand scheme of things.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

3.5max6spd said:


> Ok. This 'microprocessor' does exactly what? Just Monitors the protection circuits? And how do we (the consumer) know that the Elf amplifiers does not equip said microprocessor? Or one that satisfies the amplifiers need?
> The same Class T microprocessor chips on the CXL/XXK were found on the Clarion clones, so what does that mean?Your post indicates that you believe word for word what is said by a marketeer's company affiliate.
> 
> Bottom line is Arc audio would rather it remain speculation as it directly affects its US business if these amps indeed come from the same build house and are for sale in the US.
> ...



Like I said, I'm not an expert so I can't tell you what the difference in the chips are. And I would think that it's entirely possible to program chips to do the same thing. Reverse engineering is something that isn't difficult to do anymore. 

Here's my bottom line. I have to take what Fred tells me at face value as I have no reason to doubt him. But I don't run Arc products or Elf products so at the end of the day it doesn't matter to me either way.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

txbonds said:


> Do they actually have them in stock? The prices are pretty good. Wonder what the warranty and service support is for them?
> 
> Much cheaper than retail on the Arc's, but depending on your dealer maybe not so much more than street prices in the grand scheme of things.


Call the company up, their contacts are in California right on their website.

All I know is $250(for the 4ch, 400+ rms of power) is priced very well/competively and appropriate considering how much cheaper the technology is.

I may pick one up myself out of curiosity just to dabble with it. My brothers 4runner is tight under the seats, this may work out for him without paying a premium for the convenience.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

3.5max6spd said:


> Call the company up, their contacts are in California right on their website.
> 
> All I know is $250(for the 4ch, 400+ rms of power) is priced very well/competively and appropriate considering how much cheaper the technology is.
> 
> I may pick one up myself out of curiosity just to dabble with it. My brothers 4runner is tight under the seats, this may work out for him without paying a premium for the convenience.





Emailed them the following:

"There is a lot of curiosity about your new Micro Amps and their similarity to the Arc Audio Mini's and I'm curious what you can tell me about your product. There is an ongoing discussion in the attached thread and many people are showing interest in your amp as a cheaper alternative. Can you either reply by email about the product and it's possible differences from the Arc Mini's, or maybe join and participate directly in the forum thread about it linked here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45713&page=2

Thank you very much."


Will let you know if I get a reply of any sort, but I'd sure like to see them join up and particpate in the discussion as other vendors and manufacturers and dealers do. Would help to clear a lot of items up I'm sure.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Umm...for them to join up here they're going to have to pay vendor fees...I doubt they're going to want to deal with that.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Daishi said:


> Umm...for them to join up here they're going to have to pay vendor fees...I doubt they're going to want to deal with that.


So everyone on here that posts that happens to be a dealer, or work for a manufacturer or distributor pays fees?

Does Don and Fred have to pay fees to post in the forum?


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

I'm pretty sure. that's why they have different titles under their names as they fall into a different user group. I could be completely wrong on this, but I remember this being discussed a few months ago.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Daishi said:


> I'm pretty sure. that's why they have different titles under their names as they fall into a different user group. I could be completely wrong on this, but I remember this being discussed a few months ago.


Didn't know that.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

txbonds said:


> So everyone on here that posts that happens to be a dealer, or work for a manufacturer or distributor pays fees?
> 
> Does Don and Fred have to pay fees to post in the forum?


Vendors are required to pay fees along with all banner ads. BUT if any industry affiliate wants to just post without offering sales of some sort of larger scale, then theyre free to do so.

I'm enjoying this thread, please continue.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Boostedrex said:


> I'm not arguing that these probably use the same board layout and probably 99% of the components are the same too. But the difference that the processor programming happens in Modesto is what makes them different on the inside. Does that mean they're better or worse? *I don't know as I've not tested either one of the amps. * I also would like to state that I have no ties to Arc or Elf audio,* I was just pointing out a fact.* If the processors are different inside the amps then those amps aren't the same on the inside.






Boostedrex said:


> Like I said, I'm not an expert so I can't tell you what the difference in the chips are. And I would think that it's entirely possible to program chips to do the same thing. Reverse engineering is something that isn't difficult to do anymore.
> 
> Here's my bottom line. * I have to take what Fred tells me at face value as I have no reason to doubt him. * But I don't run Arc products or Elf products so at the end of the day it doesn't matter to me either way.


I am not and will not contribute my thoughts in either direction, BUT at the risk of seeming like the trouble maker here I will ask which it is that you are relying on? Fact or word of mouth?


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> Vendors are required to pay fees along with all banner ads. BUT if any industry affiliate wants to just post without offering sales of some sort of larger scale, then theyre free to do so.
> 
> I'm enjoying this thread, please continue.


There's not much else to say really, is there?

Fred of Arc Audio is claiming their product is different, but not providing evidence and claiming legal red tape as reason.

No one that I know has followed through with purchasing an Elf Audio version and other than pics on a website I don't know personally if they even exist for sale.

The pricing is much better and I'd sure like to know as it would appeal to the forum I'm sure to know if there were a cheaper option available.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> I am not and will not contribute my thoughts in either direction, BUT at the risk of seeming like the trouble maker here I will ask which it is that you are relying on? Fact or word of mouth?


Don, no offense as I know you are a very respected person on the forum, but going back through this thread, you are sounding a little like a trouble maker.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

txbonds said:


> Don, no offense as I know you are a very respected person on the forum, but going back through this thread, you are sounding a little like a trouble maker.


 I always try to stay as neutral as possible in threads like this as they can from one end or another bite in my ass if I don't tread very lightly. So to keep it simple I just stay out. 

I just wanted clarification of what he said one way or another whether it was hearsay or actual fact.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> I always try to stay as neutral as possible in threads like this as they can from one end or another bite in my ass if I don't tread very lightly. So to keep it simple I just stay out.
> 
> I just wanted clarification of what he said one way or another whether it was hearsay or actual fact.




Just giving you a hard time.


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

I dumped one of the elf minis into shopping cart and got as far as shipping price when I sent off a nasty email to carmedia1.com.
$106 for shipping of a teeny tiny amplifier is f**king bogus.... looks like one of yall sutherners will have to be the guinea pig.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

dogstar said:


> I dumped one of the elf minis into shopping cart and got as far as shipping price when I sent off a nasty email to carmedia1.com.
> $106 for shipping of a teeny tiny amplifier is f**king bogus.... looks like one of yall sutherners will have to be the guinea pig.


Yikes. Just checked it out for a 4 channel to Florida and their estimate is only $20.99.


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

txbonds said:


> Yikes. Just checked it out for a 4 channel to Florida and their estimate is only $20.99.


Eh, us Canadians get used to it, typical to get overpriced shipping quotes from companies that are too lazy to fill out a customs form or two.

Maybe one of these days I'll get someone to order and transship for me, but it's not a huge priority right now. I just had the spendin money bug for a couple seconds.


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> I am not and will not contribute my thoughts in either direction, BUT at the risk of seeming like the trouble maker here I will ask which it is that you are relying on? Fact or word of mouth?


Don, nice catch in my posts.  My "fact" was what I was told by Fred at Arc. Not fact as in I've seen anything manufactured or assembled while I was there as it was a Sunday. So yes, the "fact" I mentioned was just going by what I was told. I did have a good laugh after reading through the bold parts of my post. Nice one.

Zach


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Trouble makers......... all of ya I say........ bunch of trouble makers. LOL


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I'll direct Fred to this thread and he can tell you what he's allowed to you until the legal issues are worked out, but I can tell you there IS some legal red tape that's being worked through right now. He wasn't making anything up to blow you guys off or anything.


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## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

My thread  

-Chris


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## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

Daishi said:


> Umm...for them to join up here they're going to have to pay vendor fees...I doubt they're going to want to deal with that.


No, anyone can post on the forum... As long as they are sharing information and not trying to sell their product directly.


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## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

Boostedrex said:


> The 125.4 and the 500.1 are the same size. The share the width and height dimensions with the 125.2, but are 2" longer.
> 
> Cheaper or not, the Elf amps aren't the same on the inside as the Arc mini's so that should kill the comparison IMHO.


From the measurement picture, I would say it's about 50% longer than what you stated. 

Oh, and...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34777

Didn't cause quite a stir, but why now??

As far as I know, Elf doesn't have the KS100.2!









Or the "developer-model" mini


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

00poop6x said:


> From the measurement picture, I would say it's about 50% longer than what you stated.


I took this from one of the other Arc mini threads.



Insane01VWPassat said:


> They are still very much Mini!!!!!!
> 
> The 4 channel and the Mono BLock are identical in size.....and only 2 inchs longer than the 2 channel..


Not that I have first hand knowledge, but just going by what I read on here.


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

Boostedrex said:


> I took this from one of the other Arc mini threads.
> 
> 
> 
> Not that I have first hand knowledge, but just going by what I read on here.


Right, and just letting everyone know this is not the case from the yard stick. Let me go find a meter stick and see if the measurements change. Arc can't be wrong...


----------



## Slammed (Jan 27, 2006)

very interesting thread....Im curious to know more about these amplifiers



and yeah....Don has always been a troublemaker


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

00poop6x said:


> My thread
> 
> -Chris



Sorry Chris, must be my fault. I posted my excitement and about the Arc's and the thread just seemed to go down hill after that. Anyway, I'm still thrilled about my Arc Mini's and no way I'd trade them in on any Elf amps.


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

00poop6x said:


> Right, and just letting everyone know this is not the case from the yard stick. Let me go find a meter stick and see if the measurements change. Arc can't be wrong...


LOL! If I haven't seen the amps in person to measure them then what other source of info should I use? Now if you want to go and measure them, that would be great because I'd be curious to know what the dimensions are for a fact.


----------



## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

txbonds said:


> I don't know that anyone has ever bought one, have they? Someone mentioned seeing Elf Audio on display at a show, but I've never seen anyone claim to have seen these things in the flesh sort of speak as an available product, so I'm wondering if they are even being sold anywhere at this point.


That was me.

The show was held at a wholesaler (the manufacturers on display were all brands sold by the wholesaler). And according to the Elf rep, they were available from the wholesaler. And according to a friend I have here locally, there is a guy who's bought some from that wholesaler.

UBUY used to have the Mini's on their website. I actually used the "inquire" function on their website to get some more information about them (cost, etc). The Mini's have since been taken off their website, and this is the email I received in response;

"Thanks for your inquiry and I regret to tell you that this model has been exclusive promoted for to a buyer in USA."

I'd also like to know where carmedia1 is getting their products, because their prices are significantly cheaper than the _wholesalers_ price.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

For boosted, size reference shots of 125.4 & 125.2:



















Couldn't put my hand on a ruler or tape measure quickly, so here is a reference item you can relate to if you want something for size reference:


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

txbonds said:


> For boosted, size reference shots of 125.4 & 125...


OHHHHHHHHH, how is it working out for you so far??


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

Boostedrex said:


> LOL! If I haven't seen the amps in person to measure them then what other source of info should I use? Now if you want to go and measure them, that would be great because I'd be curious to know what the dimensions are for a fact.


Done:









http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p9031977fa8.jpg

Found here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45713


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I can't see your pic at work but didn't Fred post the dimensional drawings in this thread or the 125.2 thread? Why is the size even being debated anymore?


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> I can't see your pic at work but didn't Fred post the dimensional drawings in this thread or the 125.2 thread? Why is the size even being debated anymore?


I'm not sure, I even referenced Fred's post on here as well...


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

00poop6x said:


> OHHHHHHHHH, how is it working out for you so far??



Won't know for sure until this weekend as I'm planning to set aside some time to get them mounted up on the rear wall. Picked up a piece of black hdpe to mount them onto that will be mounted to the rear wall. 

Will post pictures as I go in my install log.


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

well i've been doing a bit of snooping around, deducing, comparisons, and what not. here's my take on it.

1) it's quite possible the elf and arc are not the same. the sizes are different in both the 2 and 4 channel models. i'm no expert but i would think a well designed amp that was intended to be as small as possible would be just that. the elfs are a couple inches smaller in both cases. that being said, i am not completely convinced.

2) i was less than impressed by the response of the arc audio spokesman. i was originally interested in the arc minis for my all out show car build. this will not be happening. to me this is a situation where saying nothing would have been the best bet. to say something is not the same and then to follow with "i am not going to say anything because of legal issues" is misleading at the very least. i'm not a manufacturer but i'll bet every last dollar that there is nothing illegal about selling an amp that is the same size (or smaller in this case). that leaves to question "what legal issues?".

add to that the way it was described to have gone down on the build house website (hearsay btw) leads me to believe that they are indeed closely related if not the same. so enough "maybes" and "i thinks", i went ahead and ordered the E4125X (4 channel).

hopefully we'll know for sure soon enough.


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> ...i went ahead and ordered the E4125X (4 channel).
> 
> hopefully we'll know for sure soon enough.


How much, may I ask? No maybe's, please.


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Thanks for measuring and taking those pics Poop. I was wrong.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

00poop6x said:


> How much, may I ask? No maybe's, please.


_maybe_ $275.18 shipped.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

00poop6x said:


> How much, may I ask? No maybe's, please.


If you go to the line posted earlier in the thread, I think the 4 channel was $250 and 2 channel was $150


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> _maybe_ $275.18 shipped.


Keep us posted. Inquiring minds want to know if you get it and how it turns out.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

definitely will. just for the record, i am not interested in proving arc wrong, i am only following my gut that i believe the elf will be a product of equal quality for a much better price point (while it lasts if there is indeed legal action in process). either way i will be using tru in my main build, the way a company presents itself means a lot to me and arc's response along with other info i've obtained turned me all the way off. however, should the elf amp be of quality it will go in my budget build.

either way when (and if) she arrives i'll be playin hugh hefner and snappin nudes. one of you guys with the arc 4 channel should do the same.


----------



## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> well i've been doing a bit of snooping around, deducing, comparisons, and what not. here's my take on it.
> 
> 1) it's quite possible the elf and arc are not the same. the sizes are different in both the 2 and 4 channel models. i'm no expert but i would think a well designed amp that was intended to be as small as possible would be just that. the elfs are a couple inches smaller in both cases. that being said, i am not completely convinced.
> 
> ...


Great, cant wait to see pics of the inside!


----------



## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

This is getting good. If everything pans out, I'm going to pick up some elfs


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> definitely will. just for the record, i am not interested in proving arc wrong, i am only following my gut that i believe the elf will be a product of equal quality for a much better price point (while it lasts if there is indeed legal action in process). either way i will be using tru in my main build, the way a company presents itself means a lot to me and arc's response along with other info i've obtained turned me all the way off. however, should the elf amp be of quality it will go in my budget build.
> 
> either way when (and if) she arrives i'll be playin hugh hefner and snappin nudes. one of you guys with the arc 4 channel should do the same.


Some of us with the 4 channel may already have snapped some nude pics, but may be waiting for a blessing before posting. Of course, I'm talking about my good friend, and not myself of course.


----------



## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Yeah, this should get very interesting.


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## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

txbonds said:


> Some of us with the 4 channel may already have snapped some nude pics, but may be waiting for a blessing before posting. Of course, I'm talking about my good friend, and not myself of course.


Well, I give you my Blessing!


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

another thing i just noticed (yeah i jumped the gun on gut feeling but the more i look into it the more corroborating evidence i'm finding) is that a majority of the manual for both series of amps is the same, word for word, pic for pic.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

mattldm said:


> Well, I give you my Blessing!


LOL...... I'm referring to my source for the amp. Don't want to upset the apple cart if you know what I mean. I may need service, support and future products.


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

txbonds said:


> Some of us with the 4 channel may already have snapped some nude pics, but may be waiting for a blessing before posting. Of course, I'm talking about my good friend, and not myself of course.


you do what you feel is right, but i think what is important here is the truth. asking for permission to post guts is only leaving the door for a "no" open. since elf has made no claims to be identical (or any claims at all that i'm aware of) and arc has made claims of them being different it seems like they should welcome the opportunity to prove their statement.

i feel a greater sense of loyalty to the diyma community than i do to any brand, but that's just me. it's my understanding that this forum was built on dispelling myths and offering real world facts for the good of all.


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## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> another thing i just noticed (yeah i jumped the gun on gut feeling but the more i look into it the more corroborating evidence i'm finding) is that a majority of the manual for both series of amps is the same, word for word, pic for pic.


If you look at the specs at the end of the owners manuals you will see that both the Arc and Elf have the same specs... AND they are both missing the same specs on the four channel... LOL they are the same!


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

that's what i've got my money on, but similar and same can be very different sometimes.


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## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> that's what i've got my money on, but similar and same can be very different sometimes.


My money is on the idea that whatever the differences may be inside, the performance will be identical...

So in order to be sure we need inside pics of both amps, plus a controlled double blind A/B comparison... Yeah, like that will ever happen. lol


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## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

Someone beat me to the warranty thing... I was just about to point that out.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

What warranty thing?


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

i was thinking about what it would take to prove it 100% but honestly i'm a lot less technical than a lot of the contributing members here. pics are all i will have to offer.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

norcalsfinest said:


> Someone beat me to the warranty thing... I was just about to point that out.


both companies offer the same warranty (worded exactly the same btw). the only concern would be the service level of the dealer. i know my dealer of choice (who happens to sell arc) is reputable, whereas i have no experience with the elf dealer.

i live on the edge.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)




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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

good show. i don't see anywhere for elf to take out 2+ inches (elf 4 channel is advertised @ 8.57" long) so it's probable that they will be different. hopefully when the elf shows up someone will be able to point the differences out.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> good show. i don't see anywhere for elf to take out 2+ inches (elf 4 channel is advertised @ 8.57" long) so it's probable that they will be different. hopefully when the elf shows up someone will be able to point the differences out.


Thats about the length of the 125.2, so maybe they made a typo?


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Huh? The Elf 4 channel has similar dimensions to the Arc 2 channel.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

Daishi said:


> Huh? The Elf 4 channel has similar dimensions to the Arc 2 channel.


'tis true.

i was aware of this from the beginning but after seeing the arc guts it means a lot more.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

txbonds said:


> Thats about the length of the 125.2, so maybe they made a typo?


i doubt it cause the elf 2 channel is smaller than the arc 2 channel also.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Daishi said:


> Huh? The Elf 4 channel has similar dimensions to the Arc 2 channel.


Well, here are the posted dimensions for the Arc 125.2 
8.25(L) x 4.8” (W) x 1.7”(H)


And here are the posted dimensions for the Elf E2125X
Dimensions (WxHxL) 5.4”(137mm) x 1.8”(45.5mm) x 7.35”(186.7mm)


And here are the posted dimension for the Elf E4125X
Dimensions (WxHxL) 5.7”(144.5mm) x 1.8”(45.5mm) x 8.57”(217.8mm) 


And while the Arc 125.4 dimensions are not posted on their website, I'd venture to guess these as close:
12.1(L) x 5.15" (W) x 1.7"(H)

I'll measure this weekend when I've got tools handy to confirm this guess on the 125.4 dimensions.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

Arc 2 channel:
Dimensions (WxHxL):4.8” x 1.7” x 8.25
elf 2 channel:
Dimensions (WxHxL): 5.4” x 1.8” x 7.35”
Arc 4 channel:
Dimensions (WxHxL): 5.15" 1.7" x 11.6"
elf 4 channel:
Dimensions (WxHxL): 5.7” x 1.8” x 8.57”


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

It could just be a simple repositioning on the board.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

txbonds said:


> Well, here are the posted dimensions for the Arc 125.2...


lol. we're on the same page. arc 4channel dimensions are posted in this thread on page 1..


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> lol. we're on the same page. arc 4channel dimensions are posted in this thread on page 1..



If you look closely though at that blue drawing, it doesn't include the second row of speaker inputs. I'm adding what I think that adds to the length in my guesstimate and from having it on hand. 

But, yes on the same page.


----------



## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

there is also a possibility that Elf is measuring the body only without the mounting tabs.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

mattldm said:


> there is also a possibility that Elf is measuring the body only without the mounting tabs.


Well, come this weekend I"ll measure from tip to tip in all 3 directions on my 125.4 to get the max size including tabs and connectors sticking out.

When the Elf is received, BlackonBlack98 can do the same to compare.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

ugggh. i shoulda just ordered it and not said anything until it showed up. can't stop thinkin about it now.


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## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

Check this out... Take a good look at the red boxed info. looks like the manual printers forgot something


----------



## charlotte (Aug 19, 2008)

This line of conversation on Elf/Arc's reminded me of some conversations on a biker Harley forum I am a member of recently. There's a Arc dealer on there that said he'd bought and had a Elf E2125X and was gonna take it apart and do A/B comparsion against KS 125.2. I went back and found the thread and it's stale since 8/25 with someone asking his conclusions and no answer as of yet. I know him so I'll shoot him a email today.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

norcalsfinest said:


> Check this out... Take a good look at the red boxed info. looks like the manual printers forgot something


Now that is just pathetic. They obviously copied the specs of the 125.4 and the manual. I mean, come on. 

Question is whether or not they had legal means to do so. Who knows, maybe the design was shared before it became proprietary or something. Only a few people are going to be able to tell us anything, and they are remaining quite due to legal proceedings.


----------



## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

if there are legal proceedings... 

You didn't quite get the intention of my post. The buildhouse probably prints those booklets. *If they are the same*, they forgot to change that model number. Considering they're in Asia... I wouldn't be surprised at a mistake like that.


----------



## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

norcalsfinest said:


> Check this out... Take a good look at the red boxed info. looks like the manual printers forgot something


since the 125.4 isn't released yet and yet Elf has theirs out it pretty much signals to me that they come from the same build house.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

norcalsfinest said:


> if there are legal proceedings...
> 
> You didn't quite get the intention of my post. The buildhouse probably prints those booklets. *If they are the same*, they forgot to change that model number. Considering they're in Asia... I wouldn't be surprised at a mistake like that.



Well, I won't go so far as to agree with the ethnic remark about Asia, but I will agree that something is wrong with the picture. Either the same build house let the design and specs out to another company, the designer let them out, or someone is copying someone. Either way, it seems as though someone things someone did something wrong since they are pursuing legal talks.

Good catch on the misprint in their manual though. Either they did a poor copy theft job, or the publisher did a poor job of translating it for multiple companies.


----------



## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Dude, the build house for Arc is in Taiwan. This is a known fact


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Daishi said:


> Dude, the build house for Arc is in Taiwan. This is a known fact


Never said it wasn't. Just pointing out that I didn't agree with this remark, as it was pretty much an ethnic slur unless I'm just not getting the intent of the remark


> norcalsfinest: Considering they're in Asia... I wouldn't be surprised at a mistake like that


----------



## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

I took it more as the fact that they have a tendency to simply just rebadge stuff and not bother checking manuals and the like as there is no easy legal recourse for nailing them for directly copying etc...


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Daishi said:


> I took it more as the fact that they have a tendency to simply just rebadge stuff and not bother checking manuals and the like as there is no easy legal recourse for nailing them for directly copying etc...


Exactly. Not to veer the thread too far off course here, but a stereotypical generalizations is what it was.


----------



## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Generalization...absolutely.


----------



## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

norcalsfinest said:


> Check this out... Take a good look at the red boxed info. looks like the manual printers forgot something


Oh jeez...


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

i think it was intended more as "taiwanese manufacturers, who's first language isn't english, could very easily, and quite often, overlook something when printing the manuals". it is a generalization, but in this case looks to be a very accurate one.


----------



## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

We see it all the time in my field of business...it's simply due to a massive difference in first languages.


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

heres what i have come up with today. ubuy was selling the 2 channel boards under the name ks125.2, 100% fact.



















the claim of arc's technology being reversed engineered is absurd. arc is nikola (don't believe me?) is ubuy (still don't believe me). ubuy is the manufacturer and oem's for multiple companies, arc has no proprietary rights to anything and is just a reseller.

the only cause for legal action would be if the elf was a copy and not oem'ed by ubuy. i'm betting they were, but even if they aren't it would be in ubuy's hands and not arc's.

these amps are going to be the same.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

Arc just wants to make money which is understandable. Too bad for them if someone else sells the same thing for half the price. Its called business and not too many people pay double just to have the top name stamped on their amps. (I do, but not many..)


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Wonder if the caps are the same? The Arc one has the caps with Arc printed on them, but wonder if they are the exact same caps as what is pictured here, just recovered, or are they actually a different cap with tighter tolerance?




BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> heres what i have come up with today. ubuy was selling the 2 channel boards under the name ks125.2, 100% fact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

txbonds said:


> Wonder if the caps are the same? The Arc one has the caps with Arc printed on them, but wonder if they are the exact same caps as what is pictured here, just recovered, or are they actually a different cap with tighter tolerance?


arc doesn't make caps, and really don't _make_ anything. i'm going to quit speculating until i have the amp in hand as i've satisfied my curiosity for now. the truth will come to light soon enough.


----------



## charlotte (Aug 19, 2008)

charlotte said:


> This line of conversation on Elf/Arc's reminded me of some conversations on a biker Harley forum I am a member of recently. There's a Arc dealer on there that said he'd bought and had a Elf E2125X and was gonna take it apart and do A/B comparsion against KS 125.2. I went back and found the thread and it's stale since 8/25 with someone asking his conclusions and no answer as of yet. I know him so I'll shoot him a email today.


Here's what I got back from him for what it's worth. I've got another email outstanding to see what he had to say about under the covers comparison.

Hi Wayne. I was reading a old thread and saw where it looked like you'd ordered a Elf E2125X to do a A/B comparsion against KS 125.2. Just curious if you received Elf and put it through paces yet?Been reading a lot of buzz on some of the car audio forums of how identical these amps are on specs. Alan 

Hey whats going on? Yes I did recevie it and on paper they look the same, in apperance real close, and that is where it ends.

The Elf is no where near the amp the ARC is. Not anywhere near as clean or as powerfull. Its sound was very muddy and it only measured putting out 52 watts per ch. where the ARC was at 122 watts. I put it on my bike and ran it for 8 days and it gave up. It can not take the punishment like the ARC not sure if it was the vibration or having to play at high levels for long periods of time.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

http://www.allproducts.com/ee/ubuy/01-car_amplifier_mini.html

Link to the page you posted by the way. In case others like myself were curious. LOL


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

> Hey whats going on? Yes I did recevie it and on paper they look the same, in apperance real close, and that is where it ends.
> 
> The Elf is no where near the amp the ARC is. Not anywhere near as clean or as powerfull. Its sound was very muddy and it only measured putting out 52 watts per ch. where the ARC was at 122 watts. I put it on my bike and ran it for 8 days and it gave up. It can not take the punishment like the ARC not sure if it was the vibration or having to play at high levels for long periods of time.


<- pwned

looks like the truth showed up a little earlier than expected.


----------



## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

I guess it makes sense, since the heat sinks are pretty different. (curved vs straight cut). Anyone can buy that board, but i suppose mounting it and cooling it properly as equally important to design.


----------



## charlotte (Aug 19, 2008)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> <- pwned
> 
> looks like the truth showed up a little earlier than expected.


Could be but I got no skin in this brotha! Hard to believe no one else has one of these to break cases open.


----------



## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> <- pwned
> 
> looks like the truth showed up a little earlier than expected.


Maybe, maybe not... Its hard to say with only one persons opinion. Maybe he got a really bad example of the Elf, or maybe he got a good example of the Arc.

I dont think this "Proves" anything yet.


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

i just now noticed that the elf as no cooling fan, whereas the arc does. also the wear and tear on a motorcycle is almost sure to be greater than in a car. the thing that's bothering me is the power output. i would guess that this is is directly related to the components used, but then again the difference is so great that faulty equipment or inconsistencies (2 vs. 4 ohm possibly?) can't be ruled out yet i guess.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

I'd say lets see what the Elf looks like when BLACKonBLACK98 gets it. He can post comparison pics to the 125.4 above. 

In the mean time, if I remember, I'll try to get pics of my 125.2 to compare to that board in the link above also.

As you can see here, the arc board doesn't appear to be exact. http://www.arcaudio.com/productdescription_pages/amplifiers/ks-series/ks-125.2-mini.asp

It is black, versus the UBUY one is green. Maybe just color, maybe not. Also, the Arc's use caps and electronics labeled with their name on them. Maybe the same parts just rebadged, maybe not. Again, hard to say.

I know in past threads I've seen Fred from Arc claim that with the FD line they improved tolorances and made cost savings moves to allow better parts that were branded (like the caps). Maybe the arc version is just tighter quality of the same design, but who knows. 

All the above said, I'm still happy with my Arc purchase over the thought of saving $100 to buy the Elf version.

Only thing peaking my interest as options to the Arcs at the moment are the Zuki Eleets, but they have peaked my interest for some time now, just a little large for my space at the moment.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Even comparing the pics on the arc link and the pics on the ubuy link, the designs aren't exact. The power supply windings look different to me. The ubuy board has two caps in the bottom right corner, where the arc board has one cap.


However, upon closer observation, the board in the Ubuy link says it is a KS100.2 with 100x2 at 40hms, even though they are calling it the KS125.2.

Chris linked a KS100.2 picture earlier in this thread. Maybe that is a different board that may or may not be coming in the Arc lineup.




> 00poop6x: As far as I know, Elf doesn't have the KS100.2!


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

txbonds said:


> Only thing peaking my interest as options to the Arcs at the moment are the Zuki Eleets, but they have peaked my interest for some time now, just a little large for my space at the moment.


 Come on over to the "dark side."


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> Come on over to the "dark side."


The claimed channel separation, noise/distortion level, real tested power output and still fairly small size are what interest me. Although, even at a small size, it is large for my install spots.

Still seems like it would make a nice mid/tweet amp. 

I'm gonna try out my mini's this go round though first.


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

You'll be very happy! Having heard the mini's in a few different apps now I'm very impressed. They're great little amps.

And that pic of the Arc 100.2 is a cropped/zoomed in picture of a small R/C truck that is sitting in the meeting room at Arc Audio. That little thing was too cool.


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

txbonds said:


> However, upon closer observation, the board in the Ubuy link says it is a KS100.2 with 100x2 at 40hms, even though they are calling it the KS125.2.


yeah.. i meant to mention that. i believe it is simply a case of the picture not matching the ad on allproducts.



> It is black, versus the UBUY one is green.


there is no doubt that the arc and ubuy are the same, regardless of soldermask color. this is a 100% fact. the area for debate is whether or not the elf is the same as the arc/ubuy.


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## Sinfoni_USA (Mar 9, 2005)

Wonder if the boards could be bought from UBUY...?


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

it seems like ubuy has stopped offering them (you have to search allproducts to find them, they are no longer in ubuy's profile nor are they on ubuy's site). my guess is it was decided to be in the best interest for the design only to be sold under the arc moniker, however some were sold before that decision was made. this is mostly speculation of course.


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## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> i think it was intended more as "taiwanese manufacturers, who's first language isn't english, could very easily, and quite often, overlook something when printing the manuals". it is a generalization, but in this case looks to be a very accurate one.


That's exactly what I meant. People who don't speak english well or at all would be more prone to grammar mistakes when speaking english.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

norcalsfinest said:


> That's exactly what I meant. People who don't speak english well or at all would be more prone to grammar mistakes when speaking english.


That's cool. We just have enough issues to deal with in this thread that the last thing we need is to have people get offended over what read as a generalized type of statement.


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

Hmm, the buzz about "legal action" has me giggling the more that I think about it. Elf isn't getting sued for buying OEM products, that would be like Wendys suing Mc Donalds for selling hamburgers.

Arc is probably only going after the OEM to get exclusive rights to the KSmini amps.
I highly doubt that Arc really cares if Elf is selling a similar amp, especially if the Elf is honestly inferior.
Somehow I doubt that your average audio guy who can spend a max of $275 on his mini 4 channel is going to seriously look at the Arcs anyways, so it's not like it's lost revenue for Arc. It's a sale they probably never would have made anyhow.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

dogstar said:


> Hmm, the buzz about "legal action" has me giggling the more that I think about it. Elf isn't getting sued for buying OEM products, that would be like Wendys suing Mc Donalds for selling hamburgers.
> 
> Arc is probably only going after the OEM to get exclusive rights to the KSmini amps.
> I highly doubt that Arc really cares if Elf is selling a similar amp, especially if the Elf is honestly inferior.
> Somehow I doubt that your average audio guy who can spend a max of $275 on his mini 4 channel is going to seriously look at the Arcs anyways, so it's not like it's lost revenue for Arc. It's a sale they probably never would have made anyhow.


"Legal Action" is probably my miswording what I think was described more as "Lawyers are talking" 

Similar, but not quite the same thing I guess. :blush:


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

dogstar said:


> Hmm, the buzz about "legal action" has me giggling the more that I think about it. Elf isn't getting sued for buying OEM products, that would be like Wendys suing Mc Donalds for selling hamburgers.
> 
> Arc is probably only going after the OEM to get exclusive rights to the KSmini amps.
> I highly doubt that Arc really cares if Elf is selling a similar amp, especially if the Elf is honestly inferior.
> Somehow I doubt that your average audio guy who can spend a max of $275 on his mini 4 channel is going to seriously look at the Arcs anyways, so it's not like it's lost revenue for Arc. It's a sale they probably never would have made anyhow.


i think you're looking at it from the wrong side of the fence. if the elf is not inferior arc would have a hard time selling minis because of the price. to me that's an excellent reason for ubuy/arc to keep it to themselves. i have a feeling the "legal action" is patenting the technology or something of that sort rather than pursuing action against another company, and that's why i said the statements from arc were misleading at the least. it's also why i took the risk of buying one. my gut says its the same (although the a/b comparison was a firm blow) but the elf will not be around for long since ubuy will not be oem'ing the boards.


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## kdanh (Sep 12, 2008)

Look nice.


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## lyttleviet (Sep 11, 2008)

I am very impressed with these little things


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> <- pwned
> 
> looks like the truth showed up a little earlier than expected.


Hardly. No information on how each one was tested to come to those values etc...

As for whether or not the caps are the same...Arc said the same thing about the last clones and it turned out there were no differences then...I seriously doubt there is any major difference here. At least not much in an audible sense.


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## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

BlackonBlack, any updates on the Elfs? Tracking number, did they actually ship, etc?


----------



## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

So, I just called Elf Audio to kind of poke around, I actually got someone, I asked him a few simple questions about the amp and then asked if they were available for purchase. He said yes, and that he would have his distributor call me and deal with me directly. UBUY? We'll find out monday :]


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

^
Neat

If they are very similar then I think they will be part of my truck pretty soon.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

I don't think they are going to turn out to be the same. Just my gut feeling, but I'm thinking there are going to be some differences even if you can't see them easily.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Cosmetics and the fan, and thats it, that's what I think.
The arc guy that posts here said that the fan wasn't really necessary, so the arc has that going for it.


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

AAAAAAA said:


> Cosmetics and the fan, and thats it, that's what I think.
> *The arc guy that posts here *said that the fan wasn't really necessary, so the arc has that going for it.



According to the bottom of the thread, Fred is on the thread as we type.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

norcalsfinest said:


> BlackonBlack, any updates on the Elfs? Tracking number, did they actually ship, etc?


i got a confirmation but no tracking.



norcalsfinest said:


> So, I just called Elf Audio to kind of poke around, I actually got someone, I asked him a few simple questions about the amp and then asked if they were available for purchase. He said yes, and that he would have his distributor call me and deal with me directly. UBUY? We'll find out monday :]


ubuy is a manufacturer in taiwan, you won't be hearing from them. theres a 2 channel mini on ebay, but other than that carmedia is the only other place on the web i can find anything.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Insane01VWPassat yeah that's him


----------



## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

UPDATE FOR ALL OF YOU:


Went over to my buddy's shop, who is an Arc Authorized dealer to go take a closer look at the Arc Mini's.

I asked him about the Elf/Arc thing, and he said he hadn't heard anything, but his Arc Rep and a Kenwood rep were coming in a few minutes and talk to them.

So, I asked the Arc rep for the skinny. He told me this:

"I just saw the Elf Audio website a few days ago. The amps are fundamentally the same, just a little bit different chassis size. Nikola/Arc designed the amp, and made a deal to OEM it out, as long as it wasn't marketed to the U.S., and stayed in foreign markets. The legal action is toward a violation of that agreement, as the Elf's started popping up in the U.S. and were direct competition to the Arc. Because of this violation, Arc is trying to cut Elf off so that once the amps they have now are gone, there will be no more."

He also confirmed the old Arc KS = Clarion, Eton, Cerwin Vega, etc, and that the Diamond D3600.1 and D3800.1 were also Arc made, and were the start/feeler gauge of the current KAR series. 

He says that Nikola/Arc OEM's for a lot of companies, but they prefer to keep this knowledge under wraps, because they don't want ignorant people to think less of Arc for being associated with some of the companies, and want to maintain their own identity.

Legal Action = True, but not for product infringement. It is for a violation of an OEM agreement.

ARC and ELF same = True. Same design, PCB layout tweaked a little different to fit into a different chassis.

Elfs will disappear soon = Likely. Get them while you can.


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

txbonds said:


> I don't think they are going to turn out to be the same. Just my gut feeling, but I'm thinking there are going to be some differences even if you can't see them easily.





AAAAAAA said:


> Cosmetics and the fan, and thats it, that's what I think.
> The arc guy that posts here said that the fan wasn't really necessary, so the arc has that going for it.


i'm going to give the arc guy the benefit of the doubt as far as differences.



> They dont have the processor we put in ours to control the class G, H and G/H technologies we use. The heat sinks are different as well...... the parts tolerances are also not anywhere near the same.....


i can see all of these things being skimped on to save money even if they were built in the same build house. not all resellers are going to pay for tight tolerance components, heat sink will obviously vary from brand to brand, and the processor thing... sure, why not? question is are these variatioins going to result in a sub-par amplifier.

that doesn't mean i buy the whole story either. i don't believe the elf is an unauthorized clone, and i believe the "legal issues" were mentioned to mislead the customers and used as a scapegoat to avoid telling the truth.


----------



## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

Black, look right above your post :]


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

norcalsfinest said:


> UPDATE FOR ALL OF YOU...


now _that_ sounds 100% legitimate.


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

lyttleviet said:


> I am very impressed with these little things


I'm not, it's what I expect from the equipment Arc offers.


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## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

http://diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34115


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Arc better have some good lawyers in Taiwan...US laws don't apply there. I'll have to call Elf up here next week and place an order for some


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> ubuy is a manufacturer in taiwan, you won't be hearing from them. theres a 2 channel mini on ebay, but other than that carmedia is the only other place on the web i can find anything.


http://www.twhouse.com/Brands.htm

They are the wholesaler who's show I attended. But you have to have an account with them to order 

But like I said.....Carmedia1's price was actually lower than The Wholesale House's price. TWH's price was $194 for the 2-channel.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Dealers still use TWH? Wow, havent seen that around in awhile !


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

Actually (or maybe, unfortunately) they supply a lot of the smaller dealers in the area.


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

norcalsfinest said:


> UPDATE FOR ALL OF YOU:
> 
> 
> Went over to my buddy's shop, who is an Arc Authorized dealer to go take a closer look at the Arc Mini's.
> ...


I wonder if this extends to Canada? 
I recall someone posting that Elf didn't have a US distributor, but they DID have one in Canada. It'll be interesting to see what happens.


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## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

dogstar said:


> I wonder if this extends to Canada?
> I recall someone posting that Elf didn't have a US distributor, but they DID have one in Canada. It'll be interesting to see what happens.



Technically, Canada's free game from what I understand the rep told me... Anything outside the US market is fine, but when the Elf's started selling in the US, that's where the problem was.


----------



## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

norcalsfinest said:


> Technically, Canada's free game from what I understand the rep told me... Anything outside the US market is fine, but when the Elf's started selling in the US, that's where the problem was.


Hmmm, hopefully Elf still gets to sell the minis outside of the united states then.


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## squeak9798 (Apr 20, 2005)

dogstar said:


> I recall someone posting that Elf didn't have a US distributor, but they DID have one in Canada. It'll be interesting to see what happens.


The Wholesale House carries Elf, and specifically the Elf Mini's.

TWH is located in Hicksville, OH.

So they have atleast one distributor in the US.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

Is 125.4's fan always on or is it thermally activated?


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

^ That's where the proprietary chip programing comes in


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## charlotte (Aug 19, 2008)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> i just now noticed that the elf as no cooling fan, whereas the arc does. also the wear and tear on a motorcycle is almost sure to be greater than in a car. the thing that's bothering me is the power output. i would guess that this is is directly related to the components used, but then again the difference is so great that faulty equipment or inconsistencies (2 vs. 4 ohm possibly?) can't be ruled out yet i guess.


BLACKonBLACK98 I think you make a very valid point of the harsh environment of putting one of these amps through on a motorcycle. Just the fan only would be a big plus for the components life & health. Still makes me wonder if components are different tolerances also with what was said about Elf power output and the premature failure.


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## Audio Options (Aug 28, 2008)

well once again what is said is BS about them not being able to be sold in the U.S. since it has not been brought up yet everyone please go to www.wetsounds.com and take a look at there brand new mini amp. I believe that the arcs will be the best out of all of them, best parts, best power etc, but only because they will build everything with higher tolerances. I have some elf amps on there way to my shop right now and hopefully I will receive them in the next few days. One thing I was told by elf about 3 weeks ago is they still didnt have the 4 channel amps instock yet...


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## Audio Options (Aug 28, 2008)

http://www.wetsounds.com/pages/products/SYNMICRO.html

lol just white, now you have three choices to choose from


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## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

Nikola pulls through once again


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## mattldm (Apr 27, 2006)

Audio Options said:


> http://www.wetsounds.com/pages/products/SYNMICRO.html
> 
> lol just white, now you have three choices to choose from


Is there a a price for the wetsounds yet?

Do you think that Elf will offer the sub amp?


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## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

Haha, the wetsounds are Arc through and through. Their full size Syndicate amps are the KAR series rebadged.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

norcalsfinest said:


> Haha, the wetsounds are Arc through and through. Their full size Syndicate amps are the KAR series rebadged.


That's funny as ARC is what seems to be a "marketering" compagnie as coined previously. Making your statement pretty funny.

Is it ARCS because they put their logo on it first?


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## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

Let me rephrase, they are NIKOLA through and through


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## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

norcalsfinest said:


> Let me rephrase, they are NIKOLA through and through


Repost 



00poop6x said:


> Nikola pulls through once again


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

norcalsfinest said:


> Check this out... Take a good look at the red boxed info. looks like the manual printers forgot something


Wow...thats pathetic.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Audio Options said:


> well once again what is said is BS about them not being able to be sold in the U.S. since it has not been brought up yet everyone please go to www.wetsounds.com and take a look at there brand new mini amp. I believe that the arcs will be the best out of all of them, best parts, best power etc, but only because they will build everything with higher tolerances. I have some elf amps on there way to my shop right now and hopefully I will receive them in the next few days. One thing I was told by elf about 3 weeks ago is they still didnt have the 4 channel amps instock yet...


Are you on meds? Arc said they used better parts, better tolerances etc... in the last clone saga and they couldn't produce Jack and **** to back them up. Oh, and Jack? He left town. It's the same build house in Taiwan, why would you think that they're going to have better tolerances being assembled by the same people? Why would you think they're going to have "better" parts?


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## Audio Options (Aug 28, 2008)

no im not on meds, there are only two reasons I said that was because someone on here had said they tried the elf piece and it didnt work as well or put out as much output as the arc. Second, if Arc had anything to do with them being brought in then I would make sure that there were some differences in the product


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## dogstar (Jan 31, 2007)

Audio Options said:


> well once again what is said is BS about them not being able to be sold in the U.S. since it has not been brought up yet everyone please go to www.wetsounds.com and take a look at there brand new mini amp. I believe that the arcs will be the best out of all of them, best parts, best power etc, but only because they will build everything with higher tolerances. I have some elf amps on there way to my shop right now and hopefully I will receive them in the next few days. One thing I was told by elf about 3 weeks ago is they still didnt have the 4 channel amps instock yet...





Audio Options said:


> http://www.wetsounds.com/pages/products/SYNMICRO.html
> 
> lol just white, now you have three choices to choose from





mattldm said:


> Is there a a price for the wetsounds yet?
> 
> Do you think that Elf will offer the sub amp?



I've just gotten a reply from Wet sounds and they are in Houston, so they don't have power or much for service, but apparently a few shipments have gone out recently, including the micros.

Tim from Wetsounds said they are using a coated pcb and stainless steel top plate, and it's white, which I can dig. I've asked about availability on the 4 channel and mono, but haven't heard from them yet.

Thinking a pair of these would go nicely with an Alpine marine/white PDX 1.600, but we will see what kinda cost they want.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Audio Options said:


> no im not on meds, there are only two reasons I said that was because someone on here had said they tried the elf piece and it didnt work as well or put out as much output as the arc. Second, if Arc had anything to do with them being brought in then I would make sure that there were some differences in the product


No, someone here who KNOWS somebody that's an Arc dealer said the Elf piece isn't as good. This guy A/B'd it supposedly and said the Elf wasn't as good as the Arc, but we have no testing parameters, subjective/objective parameters etc..Arc is just pulling crap out of their ass just like Fred says that they're suing Elf for stealing their design, when an Arc sales rep says that they're the same and being sued for being in the states.

Arc is not in control. They are just a reseller themselves for their parent. UBuy is the parent company that actually builds the units and has OEM'd out every design so far...

You need to read the WHOLE thread.


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## Audio Options (Aug 28, 2008)

I did read the whole thread, I didnt know that the guy who posted about the a/b test worked for arc or was a rep etc, all he said was he put it on his bike and it died.. As far as UBuy I know exactly who that is, I know Robert Lin, you see I was a Arc dealer for years ( I no longer am), infact I was one of the original Arc dealers, so you dont need to try and school me about how things work with Ubuy or Arc, Im sure that since we have parted ways things have changed with Arc but I can guarantee you that Robert cares alot more about Arc than any other company that chooses to sell his amps


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

I'll put money down that the only thing he cares more about with Arc is that he can charge twice as much for the same product and people will pay it because of the Arc name. There was no difference between the last batch of Arc's and their clones, I'll be very surprised if there's a difference between any of these mini's besides slight board layout changes.


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## Audio Options (Aug 28, 2008)

Daishi said:


> I'll put money down that the only thing he cares more about with Arc is that he can charge twice as much for the same product and people will pay it because of the Arc name.


You got it!!!! 

From what I have heard the Wetsounds is supposed to be a higher cost than Arcs, I have no idea if its true, just what I heard... (and no not from Arc)


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## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

See, the thing is, Zeff makes killer amps. But he's not God. He started Zapco, and look how they are still going strong without him. A better product even than Arc in my opinion, and i've had the C2K's and the SE's. There are plenty of just as talented engineers out there. With how MSRP's line up on all the products, that leads me to believe that they are all going to be the same. How could Arc make a supposed "superior" mini amp for the same price as their supposed "weaker" counterparts? Have you seen MSRP's on the Elfs and Wetsounds? Almost dead equal to Arc. Wetsounds wants $438 for the 2 channel. Arc only asks for $329. What's that tell you?

It tells me they're very similar, and of course an Arc Dealer wouldn't want to admit the Elf was just as good. that's his cash cow. Brick and Mortars are already hurting big time right now with the economy how it is. Why would you publicly say that a cheaper product is the same as the more expensive one you sell?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Well since Arc (Ubuy) is selling them to Elf and Wetsounds it tells me there's an extra middleman wanting to get paid.


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## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

quality_sound said:


> Well since Arc (Ubuy) is selling them to Elf and Wetsounds it tells me there's an extra middleman wanting to get paid.


Arc isn't the build house. Arc, for our purposes, = Elf and Wetsounds. Just another company getting this OEM product. UBUY's the builder, and technically the middle man. From Zeff's mind, to UBUY, to Arc/Elf/Wetsouds.


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## audiorailroad (Mar 6, 2007)

so what about the pics of the elf?


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

norcalsfinest said:


> Arc isn't the build house. Arc, for our purposes, = Elf and Wetsounds. Just another company getting this OEM product. UBUY's the builder, and technically the middle man. From Zeff's mind, to UBUY, to Arc/Elf/Wetsouds.


Sorta, from Zeff's mind FOR ARC, then to the build house. Ubuy then decides to make some extra on the side, modifies the design a little and sells the design to Elf/Wetsounds. The design was always intended for Arc as Robert is their "in-house" designer. If Arc wasn't using Ubuy as a build house then Elf and Wetsounds would not have the Minis, at least not until Arc was going to replace it and decided to OEM the design. It wasn't Ubuy having Zeff design the amp and then selling to Arc, Elf/Wetsounds.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Sorta, from Zeff's mind FOR ARC, then to the build house. *Ubuy then decides to make some extra on the side, modifies the design a little and sells the design to Elf/Wetsounds. The design was always intended for Arc as Robert is their "in-house" designer*. If Arc wasn't using Ubuy as a build house then Elf and Wetsounds would not have the Minis, at least not until Arc was going to replace it and decided to OEM the design. It wasn't Ubuy having Zeff design the amp and then selling to Arc, Elf/Wetsounds.


OMG...are you serious? How can Arc, which is owned by Robert Lin, chose another build house? LMAO!

Robert Lin= UBUY
Robert Lin= Arc Audio
Nikola Engineering= UBUY R&D
Robert Zeff = Nikola Engineering










"In the field of car audio and video products, UBUY Industrial Corporation is one of the most esteemed exporters in Taiwan. The exclusive design house in the USA, Nikola Engineering, is headed by Mr. Robert Zeff who is a legendary car amplifier designer and his design is always cutting edge in both technology and sound performance. "

Rob Zeff does not just design Arc products and UBUY decides what to OEM. They manufacture much more than just car audio amplifiers/processors, designed by Zef/Nikola.

At the end of the day whether the Mini's were designed for Arc first, matters nothing when clones are being sold in the market. What matters most to the consumer is the clone that provides said product at the best value.

Theres no way to sugar coat this one. Its a small world.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Maybe you should ask Demetrios who owns Arc. 




3.5max6spd said:


> OMG...are you serious? How can Arc, which is owned by Robert Lin, chose another build house? LMAO!
> 
> Robert Lin= UBUY
> Robert Lin= Arc Audio
> ...


----------



## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

quality_sound said:


> Maybe you should ask Demetrios who owns Arc.


How about you ask DK who signs his paychecks.

Believe what you want.


----------



## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

LoL @ this thread. Facts are facts and if you search hard enough the truth is out there.


----------



## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> LoL @ this thread. Facts are facts and if you search hard enough the truth is out there.



Seriously. The 12V industry is a web just like any other industry. It's very few people designing the stuff, and a whole bunch of companies using it and putting their name on it.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

quality_sound said:


> Maybe you should ask Demetrios who owns Arc.


Are you serious? Demetrios is just a figurehead. Lin owns Arc and also owns Nikola Engineering. What more info do you want?


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

So anyway Back to the Mini Amps 
I just got my KS 500.1 Min's in
Along with some banners & Tee Shirts
Whoot Thanks Arc Audio


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## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Ohhhhhhh........... Cool!

Chris, you get yours in too?

I'm hopeful to get my 125.2 and 125.4 firing this weekend and then will have a better idea if I want more power on my subs and mids, which would mean a 500.1 

But I'm undecided until I hear what I've got.


----------



## arcman (Feb 27, 2008)

damn, I wonder if anyone can back up they're info, of who owns what?

Anyone fired up a set of tweeters off a arc125.2 im hoping to get mine up and running off an active 3 way this weekend, just curious of any feedback from anyone who beat me to it,


----------



## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

arcman said:


> damn, I wonder if anyone can back up they're info, of who owns what?


Find out for yourself...its public information

www.uspto.gov


----------



## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

arcman said:


> damn, I wonder if anyone can back up they're info, of who owns what?
> 
> Anyone fired up a set of tweeters off a arc125.2 im hoping to get mine up and running off an active 3 way this weekend, just curious of any feedback from anyone who beat me to it,


Dude, the info is all over this thread alone and this wonderful thing called the internet. Go to UBUY's website and take a peek. Search on who owns the trademarks for said companies etc...


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

txbonds said:


> Ohhhhhhh........... Cool!
> 
> Chris, you get yours in too?
> 
> ...


We still have no power, haven't been to the shop in days. 

-Chris


----------



## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

The Elf Distributor contacted me today. Told me that Nikola OEM's the amp. (DUH)

He's sending me pricing and detailed pictures :]


----------



## Inferno333 (Mar 29, 2006)

The one thing I haven't found is whether the mini 500.1 is strapable.

What was it's power into 4 ohms?


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

Inferno333 said:


> ...What was it's power into 4 ohms?



Since Ike, there is no power 

JK.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

00poop6x said:


> Since Ike, there is no power
> 
> JK.


Man, that sucks. Very sorry. I've got family over there still, and they are lucky in that their area has power out on the NW side of town.

During hurricane Charley, I remember what it was like to have no power for days. We were right in the on the edge of that storm and didn't have terrible damage but were without power and services for a little while.

Hope you stay safe and sound, and hope everything gets back to normal soon.


----------



## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

norcalsfinest said:


> The Elf Distributor contacted me today. Told me that Nikola OEM's the amp. (DUH)
> 
> He's sending me pricing and detailed pictures :]


Sweet. Keep us updated


----------



## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

FJF said:


> Is 125.4's fan always on or is it thermally activated?


Does anyone know?


----------



## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

KS 500.1 mini


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

That looks pretty sweet. What is the paper sitting on the caps?


----------



## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

This is all I've got from them so far...

http://www.filefactory.com/file/c4b136/n/elf_audio_xls">elf audio.xls

The pricing listed is for one unit... I got some special pricing for multiple units.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

I'll be ordering up a few of those for sure.


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

6 days after ike... finally got power... 8 days after order... still no amp.


----------



## ccrobbins (Aug 19, 2006)

gratz on the power, bummer on the amp.


----------



## charlotte (Aug 19, 2008)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> 6 days after ike... finally got power... 8 days after order... still no amp.


BLACKonBLACK98 I was wondering how you're doing brotha! Hope you and your family are ok?


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

thanks for the concern. we did ok. a lot of wind damage but from what i've seen people got lucky. everything seemed to fall the right way, not a whole lot of personal losses. i've only seen part of the city.

on the flipside. one of my cars was being built in galveston. word is 9' of flood water (yes _feet_, not inches).


----------



## charlotte (Aug 19, 2008)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> thanks for the concern. we did ok. a lot of wind damage but from what i've seen people got lucky. everything seemed to fall the right way, not a whole lot of personal losses. i've only seen part of the city.
> 
> on the flipside. one of my cars was being built in galveston. word is 9' of flood water (yes _feet_, not inches).


Glad to hear you're ok! I went through Hugo in '89 and it was a experience I'll never forget. Take care.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> thanks for the concern. we did ok. a lot of wind damage but from what i've seen people got lucky. everything seemed to fall the right way, not a whole lot of personal losses. i've only seen part of the city.
> 
> on the flipside. one of my cars was being built in galveston. word is 9' of flood water (yes _feet_, not inches).


Oh crap. Sorry to hear that, but glad you are all okay. Hope the car had some insurance.


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

txbonds said:


> Oh crap. Sorry to hear that, but glad you are all okay. Hope the car had some insurance.


naw... the shop had insurance but apparently a hurricane and flood don't count as "natural disasters" to the insurance company.  my car was torn down to the point where its not a huge problem anyway, just got to dry it out and do a little corrosion prevention.

back on topic: i called carmedia1's supplied numbers and sent an email for the tracking number. haven't been able to get anybody yet. not cool...


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

Oh boohoo.


Back to MINI's;

Got my hands on the new Arc CD and 500.1. Very interesting. 

Ready, Greg?


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

00poop6x said:


> Oh boohoo.
> 
> 
> Back to MINI's;
> ...


Shoot me a PM with details on it. I'm away from the computer much of the rest of the day, but will be checking in tonight and tomorrow.

I got my stock head pulled and the rca's and turn on wire pulled up and out of the dash this morning, but have been on the tractor cutting grass ever since. Have family stuff this evening and hope to get a chance to fire up the system in the morning. 

Any tips on how to set the gains and measure clipping output on the headunit? I have a digital multi meter, but that's about all I have with me for tools. 

Thanks Chris and look forward to hearing from you on that 500.1. You got extra's of the CD to sell also?


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

00poop6x said:


> Oh boohoo.


boohoo on a car that i've spent over a year building and $20k+ getting submerged. f**kin right.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> boohoo on a car that i've spent over a year building and $20k+ getting submerged. f**kin right.


Calm down. I think Chris was referring to not hearing about the Elf amp, not about your car. You guys are both in Houston area and both suffered in the storm. I doubt he was at all giving you a hard time about your car.

Just that this is an Arc thread, and he was saying "boo hoo about the Elf, not let's get back to the Arc mini's"

Hope that makes some sense and adds some perspective. We are all mourning the loss of the car, bro.


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

txbonds said:


> Calm down. I think Chris was referring to not hearing about the Elf amp, not about your car. You guys are both in Houston area and both suffered in the storm. I doubt he was at all giving you a hard time about your car.
> 
> Just that this is an Arc thread, and he was saying "boo hoo about the Elf, not let's get back to the Arc mini's"
> 
> Hope that makes some sense and adds some perspective. We are all mourning the loss of the car, bro.


ehhh... either way its uncalled for. i tried to brush it off the first time i read it but it kept bugging me. i could go into more detail but i'll just leave it at that.


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

txbonds said:


> *I think Chris was referring to not hearing about the Elf amp, not about your car. *
> 
> Just that this is an Arc thread, and he was saying "boo hoo about the Elf, not let's get back to the Arc mini's"


Absolutely not about the car 

Everything I have been reading about their[Elf] products so far is falling right into line of my thoughts about it, period. I have my beliefs of the Elfs but this is not the place to bring it up. Especially releasing dealer (or any other non-MSRP) pricing on the forums. That should be a rule on these forums, really, but unfortunately it is not--regardless of the brand, who is giving them out or even how accurate the price is. I can get into more detail about it, but I would rather not. This is not the place.

It is definitely called for, as this thread is regarding the 125.4 MINI, therefore, blackonblack98 is offtopic. I could have called "troy_audio" out for posting the gut pics of the wrong amp in the forum also--to make things fair:blush:


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Hey, where's my PM as requested above? LOL




00poop6x said:


> Absolutely not about the car
> 
> Everything I have been reading about their[Elf] products so far is falling right into line of my thoughts about it, period. I have my beliefs of the Elfs but this is not the place to bring it up. Especially releasing dealer (or any other non-MSRP) pricing on the forums. That should be a rule on these forums, really, but unfortunately it is not--regardless of the brand, who is giving them out or even how accurate the price is. I can get into more detail about it, but I would rather not. This is not the place.
> 
> It is definitely called for, as this thread is regarding the 125.4 MINI, therefore, blackonblack98 is offtopic. I could have called "troy_audio" out for posting the gut pics of the wrong amp in the forum also--to make things fair:blush:


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

i agree that the business and politics aspects should be left out, which is exactly why i feel the elf is 100% on topic. if amp a1 is, in fact, the same as amp a2 at a lower cost then it is completely relevant to the subject. those that would say otherwise are the ones who are pushing the arc name and would prefer for the truth to stay vague. it says a lot about your position without you saying a word.

i have come up with my own theories and expectations but all that will take a backseat to the hands on truth. if it is an inferior product, or even if i can't actually get my hands on one, the debate will be over and arc will shine as the micro amp king by default. i might even buy one if the price is right now that i have pondered the advantages of the mini amps in general.

seems like someone who truly believed in the arc product should appreciate the opportunity to disprove the possibility. instead i'm seeing someone who is apparently happy that i may never receive the alternative product and could possibly be out ~$250.

btw, feel free to address me directly instead of trying to speak around me.


----------



## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> btw, feel free to address me directly instead of trying to speak around me.


I as well. 


I didn't release any dealer pricing. I kept that to myself. I released solid MSRP pricing and an Excel Spec sheet.

The information isn't super secretive. Elf referred me to distributor, distributor gives me pricing. Anyone with half a brain could pick up a phone and get the info.


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> i agree that the business and politics aspects should be left out, which is exactly why i feel the elf is 100% on topic. if amp a1 is, in fact, the same as amp a2 at a lower cost then it is completely relevant to the subject. those that would say otherwise are the ones who are pushing the arc name and would prefer for the truth to stay vague. it says a lot about your position without you saying a word.
> 
> i have come up with my own theories and expectations but all that will take a backseat to the hands on truth. if it is an inferior product, or even if i can't actually get my hands on one, the debate will be over and arc will shine as the micro amp king by default. i might even buy one if the price is right now that i have pondered the advantages of the mini amps in general.
> 
> ...


Knowing me so well and my stance on the products, you would understand that I believe they may be the same and am just as curious about the performance of the product you mentioned. You are correct about figuring out people online, I can already tell your reading comprehension may be lacking since the amp you talk about does not read 'Arc Audio' like the title of the thread. That's why I also feel that the KS500.1 pictures may be better off in their own thread, especially gut pics; it would make finding the pictures a lot easier and even more relevant to the product--search feature works a bit better that way.

The way you feel and your feelings towards Elf are irrelevant to the Arc Audio KS125.4 MINI's introduction and release, even if they are hurt. You also know that I posted a thread about past amplifiers similar to Arc's. I have no bias to Arc and am just as open to figure things out about Nikola's products and where they go. You already know which thread I'm talking about, of course.

As far as pricing, there is no secret. I will say it again, it does not matter who brings up price--but next time make sure when you speak of MSRP, it is MSRP. There is no surprise of the outcome of the industry and seeing so many people cry about high prices or lack of honesty/service. This is when the kettle should stop calling the teapot black. No hard feelings


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

i'm going to skip through all the b.s. and address the personal attacks only (which also seem to be the untruest of your comments). 



00poop6x said:


> I can already tell your reading comprehension may be lacking since the amp you talk about does not read 'Arc Audio' like the title of the thread.


first of all you would be wise to know who you're dealing with before you attack someone's intelligence. my comprehension is just fine. this is not a place to show off your newest product, this is a place for discussion of car audio. you do not decide what is and isn't relevant, and even if you did you and i both know that the elf is _completely_ relevant. you are just reaching for something to distract from the transparent comment you made and the obvious meaning behind it.

secondly, pictures of an amp next to a ruler hardly constitutes a thread to get possessive over. tell you what; pay some vendor fees and i won't dump on your incognito sale thread. amazing how you posted no specs, no usable info, yet managed to convey that you had the item for sale. nice. you can deny everything and try to play the interested consumer but you are a box pusher and your boxes happen to say "arc" and "$499". don't bother acting unconcerned that the thread took the turn of "elf at $259", its plain as day and is why you made the remark you did when i stated that my elf had not arrived.

how's that for reading comprehension?



> The way you feel and your feelings towards Elf are irrelevant to the Arc Audio KS125.4 MINI's introduction and release, even if they are hurt.


you obviously want to make this personal because you have no foundation. my feelings are not hurt and they have no reason to be. i, unlike you, have nothing to lose in this matter. i bought an amp to see what it was about. i do not need it, and i already have a couple amps of higher quality than the arc or the elfs. i will not lose my money, worst case scenario i'll dispute the charge and win.

---

this is another case of "saying nothing would have been your best bet". i did nothing to offend you, yet you went out of your way to make a snide comment in my direction which exposed your true feelings. no one would have thought twice about you had you kept it to yourself. now the best you can do is look foolish for being an a** when it was uncalled for. worst case scenario; you look like a shady salesperson that didn't want the truth to come out about your product. either way, i lose nothing.no hard feelings.


----------



## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

I find it hilarious that the only people talking about how the Elf is a POS or is some low cost ripoff of the Arc are certain Arc dealers. I understand they're trying to protect their cash cow, but I'm not going to pay double the price for the name, when it's coming from the same buildhouse and the same company.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

Not an Arc dealer here, but am an Arc owner, and so far I can say the Arc mini 125.4 is a performer. The elf and other one may be the same, and if so that's awesome that it will be cheaper. As I already bought the Arc ones, I can comment on them.

Just finally got my system fired up for the first time. Got 800prs in the dash, and it is rock solid and perfectly quiet, so knock on wood.

Got the arcs fired up and the 125.2 is doing pretty awesome on my single 10. Have the gains set about half way at the moment, which is a lot of output on my single 10. I'm still considering the 500.1 for this sub for a couple of reasons. One it would let me lower the gains a little, two it has a fan, three it would provide more headroom, and four it has the remote level knob that I like.

The 125.4 on my Alpine spxpro tweets and pioneer prs mids is providing enough power that I am not sure I can tell any difference between zero gain and 1/4 to 1/3 gain. There is plenty of power to get very loud on the head unit at level 40 using about 1/4 gain setting.

Anyway, not to derail the conversation at hand, but if the elf 4 channel is the same board, it is going to be an awesome bargain.


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

Daishi said:


> I find it hilarious that the only people talking about how the Elf is a POS or is some low cost ripoff of the Arc are certain Arc dealers. I understand they're trying to protect their cash cow, but I'm not going to pay double the price for the name, when it's coming from the same buildhouse and the same company.


don't misunderstand my intentions. i'm not looking to dog arc and its retailers, just responding to personal attacks and letting it be known i know why i'm receiving the attitude i am. 



txbonds said:


> Not an Arc dealer here, but am an Arc owner, and so far I can say the Arc mini 125.4 is a performer. The elf and other one may be the same, and if so that's awesome that it will be cheaper. As I already bought the Arc ones, I can comment on them.


i'm glad you are happy with your purchase and only hope i will be be as satisfied with mine.


----------



## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

I'm not misunderstanding your intentions at all. You got attacked by a guy who also happens to be an Arc dealer and is trying to get information regarding a comparable item removed from the thread. I was just happy that while responding to his attack against you, that you simply brought out the fact that he may have some questionable motivation to his comments.


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

cool, i just want it to be known that i'm not out for arc blood, i just don't appreciate being disrespected.


----------



## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

I know wetsound has been mentioned previously in this thread and I've found their website. Here's the link to the Wetsound lineup which is identical to the arc KS series:

http://wetsounds.com/pages/products/syn_overview.html

I have a dealer local to me so I'll be giving them a call shortly.


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> boohoo on a car that i've spent over a year building and $20k+ getting submerged. f**kin right.


I don't appreciate hard feelings and taking things personal is all you, buddy. Good to see you can first see and understand where I am getting the attitude as well... thinking you know me from things I have not stated. Claiming to have me figured out hurt my feelings You see, I believe you and I are on the same page, but taking my comment the wrong way (about your unfortunate vehicle situation) seems to have pushed you a bit to the edge relating to anything that comes or has come from my keyboard.

Your literary intelligence is still irrelevant to the Elf's availability and shipping status under this thread topic. They are related to the fact that they are extremely similar so far until proven otherwise, though, but beyond that (price, company contact, availability, etc) should be left to another thread perhaps titled "Arc MINI and Elf microtech amplifiers."

I don't see anywhere in the entire interwebz where I put down the Elf products or think they may be inferior. In fact, along with MY other threads unveiling amplifier similarity to Arc's, I was the first to post a thread introducing the Elf microtech amplifiers (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34115). I truly believe you and I are on the same page about these tiny amplifiers--but I'm not the one butt hurt over its availability in the wrong thread. As far as specifications, you're right, I should have included specifications but those can be found by either calling Arc Audio, or going to their web site, or downloading the manual, or using the search button.

I would also like to note that the measurement pictures I took disagree with what's printed in the manual, and also stated by an Arc rep on this forum. You have already read and know by now that I am not bias with Arc. I have no intentions of putting any product from any company down for any matter, that is always unnecessary and very unprofessional. Numerous people have PM'ed me regarding the relations of the two amplifiers, and I know for fact they would agree with my theories and stance on the particular subject-- I side neither company and would love for Arc to admit any resemblance, but I feel that they also don't need to step into any of it. Though, it's already too late for that.


http://diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39880


----------



## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

Fred will never admit any connection. He's pulled more crap out of his ass than you could believe on multiple forums.


----------



## norcalsfinest (Aug 30, 2008)

Daishi said:


> Fred will never admit any connection. He's pulled more crap out of his ass than you could believe on multiple forums.


This is true. I don't know why he's bull ****ting so much, when other people from the company have openly admitted the connection.


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

00poop6x said:


> I don't appreciate hard feelings and taking things personal is all you, buddy. Good to see you can first see and understand where I am getting the attitude as well... thinking you know me from things I have not stated. Claiming to have me figured out hurt my feelings You see, I believe you and I are on the same page, but taking my comment the wrong way (about your unfortunate vehicle situation) seems to have pushed you a bit to the edge relating to anything that comes or has come from my keyboard.
> 
> Your literary intelligence is still irrelevant to the Elf's availability and shipping status under this thread topic. They are related to the fact that they are extremely similar so far until proven otherwise, though, but beyond that (price, company contact, availability, etc) should be left to another thread perhaps titled "Arc MINI and Elf microtech amplifiers."
> 
> ...


i'm just going to ignore the little jabs this time. i truly hope we are on the same page and i feel this thread has run it's course. everything that can be compared has been compared and everything that can be investigated has been investigated. when/if i receive the elf i will start a new thread for direct comparison to the arc and any other microtech amps that should pop up.


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> i feel this thread has run it's course.




Wait a minute. You don't get the last word................... I do. 

Until someone else posts. LOL 

Fingers crossed that you get that Elf as I'm curious too.


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

ok... well here's the deal straight from the elf's mouth. i will not be getting an elf 4 channel and neither will anybody else until next year (if at all). my payment from carmedia1 was refunded. when i talked to them they said they were sold out, there was no eta, and the small amount of units they had received were gone. so i called elf. they said that release was delayed because of feedback from the test models (which i assume is what carmedia had or they flat-out lied, i ask them specifically "so you did have them at one point?"). they are scheduled to be released at ces 2009, will be larger than advertised, have whatever controls are mounted on the top on the side instead, and overheating issues will be addressed.

at this point i feel the case is closed. the elf is not available and the wetsounds msrp is higher than the arc, iirc, so even if it is of equal quality its a moot point.


----------



## slamtry (Mar 20, 2008)

Seems clear enough. Threat of legal action to enforce ARC's right to sole US access caused Elf to back off.


----------



## 00poop6x (Jan 20, 2007)

slamtry said:


> Seems clear enough. Threat of legal action to enforce ARC's right to sole US access caused Elf to back off.


Do they really have rights to that, though? I wonder how the Elf's were even able to make it to distributor hands. I do notice the excel sheet (not sure how credible it can be) shows european RoHS compliance. But then again, there was already advertisement in U.S. magazines and newspapers about the Elf's arrival...

But... just as I thought. Oh well =[*


----------



## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

slamtry said:


> Seems clear enough. Threat of legal action to enforce ARC's right to sole US access caused Elf to back off.


i asked elf about the possibility of the release not happening because of legal issues with arc. his reply was "they will be released, arc has no say in it".

anyways, back to the arcs...


----------



## slamtry (Mar 20, 2008)

Well they sort of would say that, wouldn't they? And also, it does seem as though events have proven, or perhaps just suggested, that ARC (or perhaps the original board manufacturer) has, at least for now cut them off as regards US sales. I mean don't you think so? It seems more likely than any other explanation, given that they had them in stock for a while, albeit briefly.

I have no axe to grind and would love to see an essentially similar product on sale here for half the price. I might buy one of these at say $250 but not at twice the price. So, FWIW, I agree on much of what you have said on the topic over the past week or two. And also, since I think it was you who had the car destroyed by Ike, my sympathies go out to you. I have never had a car worth $10k  let alone one with a $10k audio system. I hope you are compensated by insurance in some way. I know where you are coming from. Last week as I sat at a red light a girl hit me from behind so hard as to total my 13 year old BMW convertible, thereby obviating any necessity for an audio upgrade...


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## BLACKonBLACK98 (Apr 5, 2008)

i'm gonna say this and be done since i think the discussion is over and now, with elf being a no show, is just detracting from a neat product that arc _is_ selling.

the correlation between arc and ubuy has been made. arc is a retail section of a manufacturer. i think the legal issues can be split either way. on one hand, ubuy makes its money making products not retailing them. it doesn't make sense to cut off your main source of income. on the other hand, the technology is unique and the profit margins the manufacturer sees essentially selling direct to the public has to be nice. maybe nice enough to keep it all for yourself.

*edit - thanks for the empathy. the build will go on and probably be more involved than before since now i have a good reason to hack the car up (even more).


----------



## monkeyboy (Jun 12, 2007)

Well I am glad to see you are making the most of it. Sounds like it will be wild.

Make the most of it!


----------



## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

Before this thread runs out of steam, can someone post whether the KS125.4's fan is thermally activated or not?


----------



## txbonds (Mar 10, 2008)

FJF said:


> Before this thread runs out of steam, can someone post whether the KS125.4's fan is thermally activated or not?


I can't say with 100 percent certainty as I didn't design it, but I can offer that the second my 125.4 fired up playing at low volume, with a basic load of two 6.75 mids and two tweets, the fan was running.

It's behind my rear seat, so I don't know if it cuts off after a certain amount of time or something though. It may start up running and then shut off after a certain time from for all I know.

Either way, it's such a small fan, and is so quiet, I'd never know it was running. I was looking at the amp with my face about 12 inches from the fan and I couldn't hear it. I could see it turning, but couldn't hear it. In a super, super quiet interior room, you may hear it, but in a car I doubt you'd ever know it was running if you didn't see it or feel the air movement. It runs fairly slow too.

Hope that helps, for what it's worth.


----------



## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

Thanks very much. That's very helpful.


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## cgar4me (Jan 7, 2009)

BLACKonBLACK98 said:


> i'm gonna say this and be done since i think the discussion is over and now, with elf being a no show, is just detracting from a neat product that arc _is_ selling.
> 
> the correlation between arc and ubuy has been made. arc is a retail section of a manufacturer. i think the legal issues can be split either way. on one hand, ubuy makes its money making products not retailing them. it doesn't make sense to cut off your main source of income. on the other hand, the technology is unique and the profit margins the manufacturer sees essentially selling direct to the public has to be nice. maybe nice enough to keep it all for yourself.
> 
> *edit - thanks for the empathy. the build will go on and probably be more involved than before since now i have a good reason to hack the car up (even more).



Well with all of the information about these amps, I decided to contact Ubuy and inquire about them. I was informed that the ARC and ELF were identical electronics, with different housings. I then contacted ELF directly and inquired in making a purchase of one. I wanted to install on my Harley STreet Glide. Well, I got one and after having it installed pushing a set of JL Audio ZR components, I am way impressed. I also know several folks who have the ARC and they are impressed with the ARC, as was I. The only difference here seems to be the price.


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## beatnik (Mar 13, 2009)

Anyone else want to chime in on the Elf mini?


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## sublime_ac (Jun 30, 2009)

How about the Wet Sound Syndicate Micro series??? Look familiar???

Wet Sounds Syndicate Series Amplifiers SYN MICRO


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

sublime_ac said:


> How about the Wet Sound Syndicate Micro series??? Look familiar???
> 
> Wet Sounds Syndicate Series Amplifiers SYN MICRO


That one was mentioned 2 or 3 times on this page.


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## Z3Sooner (Aug 2, 2008)

Honestly, the rest of the SYN line looks like the Arc KS series with different cover. However, the specs aren't nearly as good as the KS.


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## comp142 (Jun 10, 2009)

Z3Sooner said:


> Honestly, the rest of the SYN line looks like the Arc KS series with different cover. However, the specs aren't nearly as good as the KS.


Funny this thread should come up again as I am in the process of an install of an elf E2125X and part of my decision to give the elf a try was based on a search of the Arc mini. I don't know about the SYN products Z3, but the elf has the exact same spec as the Arc. Having previously read through this entire thread my curiosity was piqued. So what's the first thing I did when it came? Yep..yanked the cover off to check the build. I'm no EE but I used to do board test and troubleshoot for a living so can tell good from bad. I was pretty happy with the quality and then I got REALLY happy. The silkscreen in the bottom left corner showed a model # of *KS125.2-mini. The KS was blacked out with marker but still easily readable.
Now I am well aware components could be different and according to the Arc rep controller software is proprietary, but I'm going see how it goes and post my impressions.*


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## Z3Sooner (Aug 2, 2008)

comp142 said:


> Funny this thread should come up again as I am in the process of an install of an elf E2125X and part of my decision to give the elf a try was based on a search of the Arc mini. I don't know about the SYN products Z3, but the elf has the exact same spec as the Arc. Having previously read through this entire thread my curiosity was piqued. So what's the first thing I did when it came? Yep..yanked the cover off to check the build. I'm no EE but I used to do board test and troubleshoot for a living so can tell good from bad. I was pretty happy with the quality and then I got REALLY happy. The silkscreen in the bottom left corner showed a model # of *KS125.2-mini. The KS was blacked out with marker but still easily readable.
> Now I am well aware components could be different and according to the Arc rep controller software is proprietary, but I'm going see how it goes and post my impressions.*


*

Yes, the specs on the mini is identical. At first glance I thought the SYN line might be the same as the KS, but the specs are very much different betweent those two lines. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they came from the same build house.

By the way, where did you get your Elf? Their website doesn't even list dealers.*


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## comp142 (Jun 10, 2009)

Z3Sooner said:


> Yes, the specs on the mini is identical. At first glance I thought the SYN line might be the same as the KS, but the specs are very much different betweent those two lines. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they came from the same build house.
> 
> By the way, where did you get your Elf? Their website doesn't even list dealers.


I got mine from a dealer in Cali. No web presence. If you're interested PM me and I'll give you info. On the web Joker's Audio has them for $199. Even though the 4 channel is shown on their site according to elf they won't be available until the end of August. 
I bought the 2 channel to check quality and performance. It will power the H.A.T. Clarus components and if I'm happy with it, eventually, it will be powering the original Harmon Kardon sub unit (albeit with different drivers) and I will get one of the 4 channel units and bridge it for the Clarus.
I hooked it up for some tests today on the sub and was pleased. The H/K unit will never be optimal, but it is well engineered and I'm going for a stealth install over total SQ. As you well know space is at a premium in the Z3 and I'm trying to use only the original space allotted. I think I can get the two elf amps into the same space as the H/K amp with enough power to keep me happy.


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## Z3Sooner (Aug 2, 2008)

comp142 said:


> I got mine from a dealer in Cali. No web presence. If you're interested PM me and I'll give you info. On the web Joker's Audio has them for $199. Even though the 4 channel is shown on their site according to elf they won't be available until the end of August.
> I bought the 2 channel to check quality and performance. It will power the H.A.T. Clarus components and if I'm happy with it, eventually, it will be powering the original Harmon Kardon sub unit (albeit with different drivers) and I will get one of the 4 channel units and bridge it for the Clarus.
> I hooked it up for some tests today on the sub and was pleased. The H/K unit will never be optimal, but it is well engineered and I'm going for a stealth install over total SQ. As you well know space is at a premium in the Z3 and I'm trying to use only the original space allotted. I think I can get the two elf amps into the same space as the H/K amp with enough power to keep me happy.


That should be a nice sounding system. The first sytem in my car was a set of Rainbow SLC components powered by an Alpine PDX mounted in the stock location (although I did have to cut the trunk carpet to make it work). That amp was disappointing enough that I have continued to rebuild my system and I am now running HAT Legatia L61-2 Pros off two Blaupunkt VA2100s and one Arc Audio KS300.4. At some point I will likely go to Zapco DCreference amps, but I likely won't be ready to spend that kind of money for a while.


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## johnson (May 1, 2007)

There's a guy on CA.com selling a KS125.2 for $220 shipped which is cheaper than the Elf E2125.


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## comp142 (Jun 10, 2009)

johnson said:


> There's a guy on CA.com selling a KS125.2 for $220 shipped which is cheaper than the Elf E2125.


Not even close. $150 shipped new with warranty on e-bay.


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## E. coli (Jan 10, 2009)

comp142 said:


> Not even close. $150 shipped new with warranty on e-bay.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

^IT's true.


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

comp142 said:


> Not even close. $150 shipped new with warranty on e-bay.





AAAAAAA said:


> ^IT's true.


Not True.. well kinda not true..
Arc will not suport the warranty on ebay or online (woofersect.com/sonicelectronics) or any one like them..
Arc Audio Tracks S/N's & voids them if tracked to an online BIN type sale..
your best bet is to see an autho dealer that you enjoy dealing with and get it from them, if you dont know of one call Arc audio & see who they would send you to..
Id also be pushed from this sale seeing it makes no sence to loose money on a sale thats way below cost can not be sure its NIB for that reson..
Thats just me though...


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## charlotte (Aug 19, 2008)

comp142 said:


> Not even close. $150 shipped new with warranty on e-bay.


What Crack Bay are you looking at.....link please.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Don't you guys know how to use ebay?
The elf 2 channel is Item number: 280368923153

troy_audio: we are saying the elf equivilent is 150, not arc's.


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## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

elf Audio E2125X Bridgeable Two Channel Amplifier - eBay (item 280368923153 end time Aug-07-09 11:25:05 PDT)


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## comp142 (Jun 10, 2009)

My bad. I should have tagged this as the elf. I thought this would be implied by using the quote. 

My old boss was right "You can never be too specific."


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

subscribe

this amp may be what i go with for plug n play rather than that crappy blaupunkt.


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG..

Only the ARC 2 channel comes with speaker level inputs..... the 4 channel doesnt..


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## Hessian (Nov 20, 2008)

placenta said:


> ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG..
> 
> Only the ARC 2 channel comes with speaker level inputs..... the 4 channel doesnt..


How much does the 125.4 weigh? It's probably in this post isn't it?

EDIT** - Looks like 11 pounds, can anyone confirm?


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

placenta said:


> ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG..
> 
> Only the ARC 2 channel comes with speaker level inputs..... the 4 channel doesnt..


so there isnt bad info here... 

the 4 channel does also accept high level inputs also. but you have to wire up your own RCA plugs to your speaker inputs. -per Arc themselves..

also, the AutoSense feature only works when you are using high level inputs, does not work using standard RCAs from an aftermarket deck.


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

quality_sound said:


> Same power per channel, just 2 extra channels.


whats up with ARC rating them differently?

125.2 = 70Wrms x 2
125.4 = 75Wrms x 4


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

txbonds said:


> My guess is that it differs per dealer, but probably $25 off that price wouldn't be out of the question if you haggled with your local dealer a little. But, who knows, may go for straight retail.


My local dealer gave me a sweet deal of $450 for the 500.1, since I bought a 125.4 the week before, for $480.


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## simplyclean (Jan 23, 2009)

So I finally got my hands on one for my brother's install. This thing is so tiny and weighs next to nothing. My bathroom scale reads 3 lbs.


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

Great Pic
Keep us posted on install..


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

those are some big caps for such a small amp.


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

Anyone bridged a 125.4 for 250Wrms x 2?

Know if you have to use all 4 RCA inputs or if you can just use 2? The manual shows all 4, but the input area also has markings for 2 channel.


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## ReticulatingPigeonElf (Sep 22, 2010)

Daishi said:


> Hey Look, it's the Elf Audio amps
> 
> elfAudio


:laugh:


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

man this is an old school thread..


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## hwijayaa (Feb 12, 2011)

which one is better, between ARC KS125.4 and ARC 4050CXL ? anyone can review that


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

hwijayaa said:


> which one is better, between ARC KS125.4 and ARC 4050CXL ? anyone can review that


my opinion... the Minis are not for the supreme sound quality, they are for space savings. The 4050CXL would be a better SQ amp overall. Thats my stance.


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## hwijayaa (Feb 12, 2011)

placenta said:


> my opinion... the Minis are not for the supreme sound quality, they are for space savings. The 4050CXL would be a better SQ amp overall. Thats my stance.


hmm.. give a score for ARC KS125.4 mini sound perfomance? between 0-100


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## placenta (Feb 2, 2008)

hwijayaa said:


> hmm.. give a score for ARC KS125.4 mini sound perfomance? between 0-100


i wouldnt have a clue... ive had one, but its too hard to compare to any other amp. Class G or whatever it is.... comparing to my TRU, McIntosh... for SQ, i'd give the Arc mini a generous 75, where the Mc might be 85-90 and the TRU would be 90-96. My stance.


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