# Using Ribbon tweeters in the car



## npdang

So you've heard someone mention ribbon tweeters, how amazing they are, and now you want to get the inside scoop. You may have also heard people say how fragile and difficult they are to use in cars. Well, now's the time to separate fact from fiction and learn what issues you need to know about when using ribbon tweeters in your car.

First off, what is a ribbon tweeter and how are they different from regular tweeters? Here's a look at an Aurum Cantus g3si ribbon tweeter:










Imagine your regular old dome tweeter and voice coil. With a ribbon tweeter, there is no separate dome and voice coil. The aluminum ribbon element acts as both the radiating element (the dome) and the voice coil together. Also, the ribbon element is much thinner, lighter, and faster to respond than your typical coupled voice coil and dome tweeter. 

So what are the *advantages* of a ribbon over a regular dome?

- High sensitivity and superb dynamics. Less than a few watts will typically yield very high spl levels. Also, above a certain frequency usually 10khz or so, a ribbon acts as a line source meaning that for every doubling of distance, you lose only -3db rather than -6db like you would with conventional point source drivers. The longer the ribbon, the lower the frequency.

- Greatly improved horizontal off-axis response resulting in excellent high frequency detail retrieval, a more open and "airy" sound, and a wider/deeper soundstage.

- Very fast decay times, which give you a smooth, uncolored, and grain free sound. The worst example of this here is your typical metal dome tweeter, which can be extraordinarily detailed but sound harsh and "metallic".

- A limited vertical dispersion. Simply put, the sound present above and below the tweeter is greatly reduced in comparison to the sound radiating directly in front, and to the sides of the tweeter. This is an advantage because it reduces in-car reflections from the floor and the underside of the dash when mounted in kickpanels.

- In the case of Aurum Cantus tweeters, replacing/reconing the ribbon is extremely cheap and easy, usually costing you only a few minutes of time and about $5-$10 USD.

*Disadvantages:*

- Limited vertical dispersion. While this can be an advantage, it can also be a disadvantage. The tweeter must be aimed directly at the listening position, otherwise the spl will drop off. Can be a pain to work with if there are 2 people of different height sitting in the car.

- Fragile ribbon element. Yes the ribbons are very fragile. You do not want to blow directly on them, and they require steep crossovers usually 18db (3rd order) or above to protect them from overexcursion. It is also absolutely recommended that you place a capacitor inline with the tweeter to prevent them from being damaged by turn on/off noises etc.

- Size. These suckers are pretty big and deep.

A pic of an Aurum Cantus g3 ribbon with a protective cap inline:










A pic of an Aurum Cantus g3 ribbon installed in the kickpanels of a 94 Honda Accord:










Unequalized frequency response of a g3 ribbon (red and green lines) mounted in the kickpanels. Measurement taken at the driver's headrest. Note the steep rolloff at 1.5khz, and the flat extended response out to 20khz!










Compare the high end response to the Morel mdt-43... a conventional tweeter known for having excellent high end dispersion.  This tweeter was heavily equalized to boost it's upper end frequency response. It still doesn't quite make it to 20khz 










* Some tips for using ribbons in cars *

- Kickpanel mounting is generally best because these guys are big!

- 1-5 watts is plenty of power, and will easily play at painful listening levels.

- Always use an inline capacitor to protect the ribbon. A Solen 27uF poly cap works fine.

- Make sure to vertically aim the tweeter at your head level.

- Use a steep 18db (3rd order) or higher highpass crossover.

- Loud bass or slamming doors will not damage the tweeter. Stepping on the tweeter will not damage it either, since the ribbon sits behind a strong protective grille. I've personally recorded spl levels > 135db in car without any damage to the ribbon element, and after nearly a year of constant use with people stepping on the driver, kicking it, and slamming my doors hard the ribbon is still in pristine condition.

So who makes ribbon tweeters? Check out these links for more info:

http://www.aurumcantus.com/
http://www.fountek.net/

Fountek ribbons are generally cheaper and offer similar performance to the Aurum Cantus units, but are considerably more expensive to fix and utilize plastic bodies instead of solid aluminum.

There is also another category of tweeters called "planar tweeters". You can think of them as close cousins to ribbon tweeters. The most noteable difference is that the planar is not a pure aluminum element as with a "true" ribbon, it's in fact usually a plastic or similar sheet with aluminum embedded in it. It's also attached to the frame on all sides, whereas a ribbon is only attached at the top and the bottom. Personally, I have yet to hear a planar driver that can match the performance of a "true" ribbon tweeter.

Just wanted to update this post with a new type of ribbon design by LCY. My experience with this driver is that it uses a shorter ribbon than usual, stacked side by side and a horn loaded faceplate. What this does is radically increase the vertical dispersion of the ribbon, giving a more spacious soundstage with a wider sweetspot. These ribbons are also a tad bit smoother sounding than any other ribbon I've used from AC, Fountek, to Raven.

Compare the vertical response from your typical 12cm ribbon to that of the LCY-130. (These pictures taken from www.lcy.com.hk and are copyright of LCY)


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## Danny23

Do you think that the upper door area would be too windy if I drive with the windows down? Like about 4" down from the windowsill, and all the way forward in the door, flush mounted in the doorpanel.


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## npdang

Danny23 said:


> Do you think that the upper door area would be too windy if I drive with the windows down? Like about 4" down from the windowsill, and all the way forward in the door, flush mounted in the doorpanel.


I'd say probably not... it's really only if air is blowing directly on the ribbon that you have a problem... but again I've never done it myself so I wouldn't know 100%


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## 10K2HVN

npdang,

quick question(s):

What vaule cap are you using for the "protective cap"?

So i dont have to search/calculate P):

Where does it start cutting frequency (xxxxhz @ -6db/oct)?

One More:

What slope are you using from your active xover (without protective cap / passive xover)?


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## npdang

27uf... I think it's around 1khz or 1.5khz.

Active xover depends on your setup.... I think my left tweet is 12db butterworth at 2khz electrical, and 1st order at 2.4khz on the right tweet. Both of them are 4th order acoustic... whatever it takes to sum flat with the mid.


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## 10K2HVN

npdang said:


> 27uf... I think it's around 1khz or 1.5khz.
> 
> Active xover depends on your setup.... I think my left tweet is 12db butterworth at 2khz electrical, and 1st order at 2.4khz on the right tweet. Both of them are 4th order acoustic... whatever it takes to sum flat with the mid.


cool thanks!

27uf looks like 736hz @ 8 ohms and 981hz @ 6 ohms at 

http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=55#first

Thanks again!
-10k


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## npdang

10K2HVN said:


> npdang said:
> 
> 
> 
> 27uf... I think it's around 1khz or 1.5khz.
> 
> Active xover depends on your setup.... I think my left tweet is 12db butterworth at 2khz electrical, and 1st order at 2.4khz on the right tweet. Both of them are 4th order acoustic... whatever it takes to sum flat with the mid.
> 
> 
> 
> cool thanks!
> 
> 27uf looks like 736hz @ 8 ohms and 981hz @ 6 ohms at
> 
> http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=55#first
> 
> Thanks again!
> -10k
Click to expand...

That's it... 1khz


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## cam2Xrunner

Hey, I'm new here, got a ? 

You say 1-5 watts is plenty, what kind of amp would you rec?

It looks like the Tru C-7.2AT would be a good match, but how about something more affordable?


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## robert crumbley

hey cheapboy,

is your passenger side ribbon mounted exactly like the driver's side ribbon?

what do you think of the dayton metal 7" as a possible driver to use with the cantus g3's?

thanks


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## xDeLiRiOuSx

Hi robert crumbley,

I'm not cheapboy, but I'll answer it since I think Npdang has been pretty busy the last few days.

He told me that the passenger's ribbon is aimed 30 degrees to the listener (driver). He saids this is the way it's setup in home audio. And by doing so, the drivers' imaging is perfectly centered.

So in short, the answer is NO, his passenger ribbon is NOT aimed like the ones on the driver side.


David


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## shaunly

Hey everybody,

first off, i just want to say this is an awsome site. I have a quick question about ribbons tweeters. NPdang mention above that @ 135db it did not damage the ribbon but what about spl above 135...let's say up to 150db, will that effect or damage the ribbon? I'm asking this is because I will be getting a pair soon and I also compete for SPL so I want to know should I remove the ribbon tweeter everytime I compete?


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## npdang

shaunly said:


> Hey everybody,
> 
> first off, i just want to say this is an awsome site. I have a quick question about ribbons tweeters. NPdang mention above that @ 135db it did not damage the ribbon but what about spl above 135...let's say up to 150db, will that effect or damage the ribbon? I'm asking this is because I will be getting a pair soon and I also compete for SPL so I want to know should I remove the ribbon tweeter everytime I compete?


I can't promise anything, but I would think that it's fine. In the worse case, reconing damaged ribbons is extremely easy and cheap ~$10-$20 for most brands.


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## 10K2HVN

geez..thats a beautiful picture of the LCY ribbons..!

makes me want to make a white pillow for them in my car! perfect contrast! :lol:


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## 10K2HVN

*ITS OFFICIAL*

Ribbons tweeters will withstand 150.6 dB's of subwoofer sound pressure.

My team member Shaun Ly hit 150.6 dB's in his Civic coupe at the SLAP competition this Sunday (5/22/05) in Chula Vista, CA. the LCY ribbons tweeters were still installed in kickpods because we didnt have time to take them out..  after an inspection after multiple burps, we found the ribbon tweeters to be perfectly fine! 8) 

i should have pictures if Shaun would email them to me?!?!?!?
(will be updated soon)

here we go:








picture isnt too great because of the LED display, but it says "150.6" - it was acatually a video but i dont think he wants to post up the whole video....


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## newtitan

okay ribbon folks

I have a daily driver with two passengers (me and wifey  )

so I cant really aim both ribbons at the drivers head

so I was thinking aim the ribbon at each person (assuming the same ear height)

and then use TA when Im in the car by myself


will this work or should I stick with my seas reference domes on the dash??

bored as usual and want to try this ribbon kick



and also whats the difference SQ wise from the LCY

130 (large round face)

2.0khz-60khz
92db/w/m - 8Ω
150w (3rd. order 2.0khz)


110 (small round face)

2.2khz-60khz
92db/w/m - 8Ω
150w (3rd. order 2.2khz)

and the one thats looking reall attractive to me since I can mount it easier

108 (small sqaure face)

2.2khz-60khz
92db/w/m - 8Ω
150w (3rd. order 2.2khz)

and also anyone have any dimesions on these LCY's?? I cant find them anywhere


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## npdang

Specs at www.lcy.com.hk

They're also all the same ribbon driver, with different faceplates. 108 = 108mm square, 110 = 110mm round, 130 = 130mm round.

Ribbons have exceptionally wide horizontal dispersion, so feel free to aim them horizontally wherever you need to.


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## xDeLiRiOuSx

I'm not sure about your wife... But most people I know, (who are not into car audio) won't really noticed the difference. So I'd say, build the kicks aimed both at the driver. So that YOU get perfect imaging. your wife may not even notice anything missing!

David


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## 10K2HVN

npdang said:


> Ribbons have exceptionally wide horizontal dispersion, so feel free to aim them horizontally wherever you need to.


yup, i personally wouldnt necessary aim both of them directly on axis. im aiming them between the listeners, so theyre both equally off-axis to both listeners.


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## newtitan

npdang said:


> Specs at www.lcy.com.hk
> 
> They're also all the same ribbon driver, with different faceplates. 108 = 108mm square, 110 = 110mm round, 130 = 130mm round.
> 
> Ribbons have exceptionally wide horizontal dispersion, so feel free to aim them horizontally wherever you need to.


thx man appreciate it

so basically the larger face area has no effect on the range of the sound dispersion horizontally or vertically?

and I like the idea of aiming them center that seems like a cool idea


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## 87DXHatch

Review of the Aurum Cantus GS2i and the Fountek JP3:

http://home1.stofanet.dk/troels.gravesen/index_b/Ribbon_tweeters.htm


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## cvjoint

I think I just damaged my dayton planar tweets, they sound mediocre at best now no sparkle to them whatsoever. I'm thinking it was the turn on/off pops. 
Edit: got even worse in the past 24 hours.  I just ordered a new set and some solen caps. Hopefully it will do.


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## cvjoint

Just noticed my previous post. I lied lol. they were not damaged. as a matter of fact neither the Bg Neo 8 nor the dayton planar designs needed an inline filter for my application.

The question I have is whether I can mount the LCY 110s in the actual door. Will it ruin the element if the door is slammed? Do I have to hang them from the pillar?


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## Oliver

CVjoint, how did you end up mounting them?


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## sx_abella

hi guys, what can you say about hertz ht20r ribbon tweeter?

specs here http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/Doc/pdf_ht20r.pdf


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## Tonyguy

I'd like to know if it would be wise to run a set of tweeters along with the ribbons in a car i.e. ribbons in the kick as the main tweeter and the regular domes in the a pillars crossed at like 8 or 10k to raise the soundstage. Sound like a good idea? Or no?


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## Megalomaniac

:drool: but i wonder if its too high and offaxis


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## Sex Cells

So many options.


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## drake78

I love my lcy 108 ribbons. They are the best tweets I have ever own. They are all that and then some.  two thumbs way up^^.


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## cvjoint

Hic said:


> CVjoint, how did you end up mounting them?


They went on the dash for a year or so. I just finished my kickpanels for them today. The dash location was too sensitive to reflections from the side windows and I'm trying to get more coherence with my other speakers. The LCYs never really blended in, they sound too different from other speakers, like the total opposite of soft domes. Maybe kicks will help. Stay tuned.


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## Oliver

Dispersion is the problem, [ horiz= excellent, vert= need to set the tweeter for the best vertical dispersion ].


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## dexza

i used aurum cantus G2 ribon tweeter on A pillar


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## Soundsaround

Megalomaniac said:


> :drool: but i wonder if its too high and offaxis


That's very close to how I've mounted mine. Height is perfect. I like the mid off axis like that, keeps the 1-5k range from being too in your face. Yet with the tweet on axis, all of the detail remains.
Damn, those Alfa interiors are soooo nice!


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## cubdenno

Then how does the ribbon compare to a small planar like the Neo 3 that people seem to like on this site?


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## cvjoint

Safe to say kicks helped! Ribbons blend in perfectly, staging is nearly perfect and eye level. I had two unexperienced listeners claim I have speakers in the pillars or on the dash soo I'll say that's darn good proof for a high stage  

BTW don't like the way those Hertz mids are mounted in the pillar, that's the worst spot I could ever find for my Neo 8. Reflections will eat your soul, the guy better have some heavy duty RTA at his disposal. I do like the one on the dash facing the windshield, that gives good results in any setup I've heard.


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## npdang

Generally speaking, planars have a much different sound to my ears than pure ribbons. Less refined, with significantly poorer horizontal dispersion.

I would also never mount a ribbon that close to my head, or on it's side. I agree with Cvjoint that kicks are the ideal place for them in a car, as these are not traditional point source drivers.


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## Megalomaniac

Soundsaround said:


> That's very close to how I've mounted mine. Height is perfect. I like the mid off axis like that, keeps the 1-5k range from being too in your face. Yet with the tweet on axis, all of the detail remains.
> Damn, those Alfa interiors are soooo nice!


idk. i thought planers/ribbons need a lot of natural paths


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## Soundsaround

cvjoint said:


> BTW don't like the way those Hertz mids are mounted in the pillar, that's the worst spot I could ever find for my Neo 8. Reflections will eat your soul, the guy better have some heavy duty RTA at his disposal. I do like the one on the dash facing the windshield, that gives good results in any setup I've heard.


That's funny, my experience was exactly the opposite. Facing the windshield sounded harsh and shouty, and the off axis a-pillar position relieved most of that. No doubt reflection issues were still there, but some careful eq work balanced it all out nicely.
That said, I too found kicks to be the easiest to work with and depth and width was amazing with little effort. Not so practical in my car though, and I love the way the Neo3 and Neo8 sounds like one big driver when mounted very close together.


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## cvjoint

I take back what I've said about reflecting it off the glass completely. Thinking back I only heard conventional domes and mids in that position. That being said, the kicks still remain the best option for me.  

Why can't you do kicks? I thought I couldn't possibly throw a single 1 inch tweeter in there. I now have an 8 inch mid, the Neo 8 and the Lcy 108 in there. Oh and I drive stick too.


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## Oliver

cvjoint said:


> I take back what I've said about reflecting it off the glass completely. Thinking back I only heard conventional domes and mids in that position. That being said, the kicks still remain the best option for me.
> 
> Why can't you do kicks? I thought I couldn't possibly throw a single 1 inch tweeter in there. I now have an 8 inch mid, the Neo 8 and the Lcy 108 in there. Oh and I drive stick too.


Sweet CV !!


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## T-BEAR

Hello Friends,

i am using this 3way set from fountek and very good performance in car.fountek good ribbon products


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## ~thematt~

I'm a recent convert. Some photos of the LCY108 in my dash. Car is being designed as a two seater listener, and the sound is simply fantastic. Xover is 24dB @ 6.3kHz and up. 

Can do with some more angle, but the window actually adds to the offaxis response extremely well.


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## Oliver

~thematt~ 
Oz-stralian

That looks nice !!


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## Oliver

Did you notice a slight difference or a WOW ?

These have some quality to them, a certain "Je ne sais quoi" !


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## T-BEAR

hello friends ,

has anyone here heard that a well know manufaturer of ribbon tweeters is actually coming out with a car audio speaker system?please let me have you feedback.thanks


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## captainobvious

~thematt~ said:


> I'm a recent convert. Some photos of the LCY108 in my dash. Car is being designed as a two seater listener, and the sound is simply fantastic. Xover is 24dB @ 6.3kHz and up.
> 
> Can do with some more angle, but the window actually adds to the offaxis response extremely well.


I take it you had to ditch the faceplate to fit them there? Looks nice.

Also, what are you using for upper midrange frequencies, and why did you end up crossing at 6.3khz? Thanks


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## T-BEAR

Friends,

i am using the component set from hustler and they are ribbon tweeters but very small in size comparing to the aurum cantus,the point is ribbon tweeters are really different,more live like...i enjoy it


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## Oliver

a$$hole said:


> Did you notice a slight difference or a WOW ?
> 
> These have some quality to them, a certain "Je ne sais quoi" !


How did they sound ?


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## freeride1685

question....i have heard npdang and others suggest that a sturdy baffle can improve tweeter performance. two alternate thoughts came to mind and i want to clear them up. i want to know if that suggestion is based on the idea that a tweeter, when mounted on a strong baffle, can better resist resonances from other speakers/panels, or that a tweeter can better resist resonance within itself (or both)?

i ask this because the idea of mounting a tweet right next to an 8" mid in the kickpanel, for example, sounds like an awfully vibration-prone region to choose, despite reinforcement and sound deadening efforts. this also makes me wonder if some of the reason why coaxial speakers are not as clear as comps is because the tweeter gets rattled like crazy by the mid.

i feel like a ribbon would be even more sensitive than a dome tweeter to resonance in the structure to which it is mounted....however that statement is not based on any evidence, just my gut feelings.


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## Oliver

Think pi, 2pi [it would control the dispersion of sound ].


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## ~thematt~

Lol, sorry guys, just recently saw this. We didnt ditch the faceplate, but did cut it up. The steel was perfect to brace the baffle that you see in the pictures. Given where it is located, and the thin nature of the baffle, if we didnt use the faceplate, it would be a bit too brittle and playing around with it may have broken it.

My mids at the moment are Dyn 140/2's, which sail up that high quite easily. I just received shipment of some Audiotechnology Cquenze 15G52's though, that will be replacing them.


captainobvious said:


> I take it you had to ditch the faceplate to fit them there? Looks nice.
> 
> Also, what are you using for upper midrange frequencies, and why did you end up crossing at 6.3khz? Thanks


The difference was immediate and noticeable, but given the high Xover point, it wasn't totally 'wow'. More along the lines of "hey, that's quite nice". After living with them for a few months now, I cant go back. Too good, too clean, too....right.


> Did you notice a slight difference or a WOW ?
> 
> These have some quality to them, a certain "Je ne sais quoi" !


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## Oliver

~thematt~ said:


> My mids at the moment are Dyn 140/2's, which sail up that high quite easily. I just received shipment of some Audiotechnology Cquenze 15G52's though, that will be replacing them.


Nice


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## Cdieselfan

Looking for a tweeter to cover from about 9k and up. Like the fact everyone saus these are nice and lively, plus take very little to get loud. They would be matched up with a pr of Varetis horns and midbass's. Would anyone suggest this?


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## cvjoint

~thematt~ said:


> I'm a recent convert. Some photos of the LCY108 in my dash. Car is being designed as a two seater listener, and the sound is simply fantastic. Xover is 24dB @ 6.3kHz and up.
> 
> Can do with some more angle, but the window actually adds to the offaxis response extremely well.


Wow, very nice! I used to have my ribbons on the dash when I first experimented with ribbons. Here is a few problems I stumbled over, some of which you perfectly accounted for. 

Horizontal dispersion led to some harsh reflections when the windows were up. It seems that you were aware of this since you treated both left and right panels for the LCY. 

You managed to mount them away from the windshield to leave your view unobstructed, that is incredible too. 

The left one was always too 'hot' as it was rather close but yours seem to be mounted a fair distance. So far so good, the best attempt I've seen at running ribbons high above. 

However, I'm not to keen on the two seat listener goal. In my experience if you go over 15 degrees of axis vertically the FR starts dropping. I have one ribbon rolling off at 18khz from a minor mounting angle difference. If you want to get them flat to at least 18khz in that position you will probably need very heavy eqing. You will narrow the sweetspot quite a bit if you go with anything other than on axis for one driver seating. Two driver will be even more wild. 

How much reflection benefit do you get and where, how large is the sweet spot for both listeners and how desirable are these reflections to begin with?

Ohh and you should know the nickel plating on the magnet slugs will deteriorate very rapidly in direct sunlight. I suspect the magnet force will too so the sensitivity will drop.


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## ~thematt~

There is some more work to do, but the window is acting (as was designed) like the mouth of a waveguide, aiding the sound instead of interfering. The baffle will need to be modified to further increase this effect though.

I am getting an off-axis FR, within detectable limits, the same as on-axis. I haven't yet tested it with a mic, and my hearing starts to fall quickly past 18k, but honestly, the sweet spot is extremely wide, with a really nice horizontal dispersion. Again, I'm going to add a bit more horizontal angle to eliminate some of the combing I'm getting that high up, but its certainly not a large issue. Reflections are minimal, and with a dashmat, easily treatable.

Also, dont forget I'm an aussie, and hence right-hand side driving (none of this wrong-side of the road/car issues).

The pictures dont show it, but you cant see the ribbons at all from the listening position. I actually lifted the camera to get those shots off. The entire spectrum of sound from them is off-axis.

As to the magnet slugs, well the ribbons arent in direct sunlight. They are tucked away nicely behind the baffles, plus the way the units are mounted in the dash, its really not in that bad a position. Further up the dash and it would be another story though.


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## freeride1685

can anyone suggest a great low powered amp to power ribbons? maybe something with tubes? any suggestions appreciated.


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## cvjoint

~thematt~ said:


> There is some more work to do, but the window is acting (as was designed) like the mouth of a waveguide, aiding the sound instead of interfering. The baffle will need to be modified to further increase this effect though.
> 
> I am getting an off-axis FR, within detectable limits, the same as on-axis. I haven't yet tested it with a mic, and my hearing starts to fall quickly past 18k, but honestly, the sweet spot is extremely wide, with a really nice horizontal dispersion. Again, I'm going to add a bit more horizontal angle to eliminate some of the combing I'm getting that high up, but its certainly not a large issue. Reflections are minimal, and with a dashmat, easily treatable.
> 
> Also, dont forget I'm an aussie, and hence right-hand side driving (none of this wrong-side of the road/car issues).
> 
> The pictures dont show it, but you cant see the ribbons at all from the listening position. I actually lifted the camera to get those shots off. The entire spectrum of sound from them is off-axis.
> 
> As to the magnet slugs, well the ribbons arent in direct sunlight. They are tucked away nicely behind the baffles, plus the way the units are mounted in the dash, its really not in that bad a position. Further up the dash and it would be another story though.


I'm really impressed. If I wasn't continents away I'd love to have a listen. It's funny how we drive on opposite sides, and I totally forgot. I wonder if we lost hearing more in one ear and it's opposite. That's a very neat install, I don't see many folks attempting waveguides. 



freeride1685 said:


> can anyone suggest a great low powered amp to power ribbons? maybe something with tubes? any suggestions appreciated.


mehh...anything without background noise or hiss. I've heard tube amps before but I couldn't pick up a signature sound or anything, maybe I have to use it in a controlled test.


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## innsanes

sorry, but this might be a newb question. How do these ribbon compare to the image dynamics cd1 neo horns? Seems like both are capable of crossing in the 1k-1.5k range.


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## drtool

My friend just ordered ICY-130 to replace Focal K2 tweets (the mid's just fine the tweets not so much) this is going to be fun.Going in a 1940 sedan delivery.


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## roysav

any specs on the caps required??


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## bbfoto

npdang was selling all of the LCY Ribbon tweeters with 27uf (27 micro-farad) Solen Fast caps, which were about $9 each at the time. One capacitor per tweeter of course.


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## Catman

freeride1685 said:


> can anyone suggest a great low powered amp to power ribbons? maybe something with tubes? any suggestions appreciated.


Old School Nakamichi PA200

>^..^<


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## RUBBER DUCKY

is it ok to remove the face plates of the ribbon tweeters?as the face plates are bloking my view,the tweeters are placed on dash.

comments will be appreciated


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## Ultimateherts

Do the ribbons need an enclosure? I just received my Hustler audio Mystique ribbon and all I received was a dash mount to have them facing the passenger, but then the whole driver would remain exposed.


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## friction

Ultimateherts said:


> Do the ribbons need an enclosure? I just received my Hustler audio Mystique ribbon and all I received was a dash mount to have them facing the passenger, but then the whole driver would remain exposed.


i don't think its necessary for an enclosure.


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## Candisa

A question pops in my head...

Ribbon tweeters have a very good horizontal off-axis respons, but a terrible vertical off-axis respons, right?

So this means, even if both tweeters are aimed at the driver, the passenger gets almost the same nice sound as the driver, if the passengers head is at the same height, but if you sit higher or lower in the car (or a judge who has a longer/shorter body than me sits in the car), the top-end response reduces very fast.

Now, I don't give a f*ck about passengers but sometimes I'd like to sit low in my car, sometimes I'd like to sit higher, so if I want the best sound undepending if I sit higher or lower, I need a high vertical range of good detailed sound, right?

Unless somebody without legs or somebody who has much longer legs than me, the seat won't be moved back/forth so extreme that the horizontal angle of the axis changes thát much to reduce the top-end very much, so I don't need thát much of a horizontal dispertion, right?

If the answer on the 3 "right?"s is 'yes indeed', then why not mount ribbon tweeters horizontally (turned 90°) instead of 'normal' if the install is a 1-seat-install?

Edit: and an additional question: what if you mount 2 ribbon tweeters per side, next/on top of eachother, 1 mounted normal, 1 turned 90°, wouldn't that give a nice horizontal *and* vertical dispertion?

greetz,
Isabelle


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## Candisa

Nobody?


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## npdang

There are ribbons now with good vertical dispersion. Look at LCY, Raal, etc.


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## bass_lover1

When Zaph did his test of the "non dome tweeters" he said that most all ribbon/planar style tweeters have similar off axis response as a 1" dome, where they lack is off axis vertical response. That's probably a big deal for home audio users, but in car I don't see it being an issue.

I do find that my Neo3s do have a slightly narrower listening angle than my previous LPGs did, but again once aimed properly unless you're leaning forward for a long time, it isn't a problem at all.


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## distronic

Is it necessary to use a tube amplifier for these? I mean, I'm just starting out and was interested in this, but am wondering about the cost of a decent amp.


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## Whippet

Great info here - thank you.


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## Bmxnick101

The more I read the more my setup changes  thanks guys


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## Candisa

distronic said:


> Is it necessary to use a tube amplifier for these? I mean, I'm just starting out and was interested in this, but am wondering about the cost of a decent amp.


Xenia has a pair of Fountek ribbon tweeters for her van and she'll use an Xtant amp on them. I don't see why a tube amplifier would be necessary. A good, low THD, high SNR amplifier is just fine.
Low THD and high SNR is always important on tweeters, but since ribbons give even more detail than most dome tweeters, it's even more important...


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## Oliver

npdang said:


> There are ribbons now with good vertical dispersion. Look at LCY, Raal, etc.


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## swong46

I have a 6x9 speaker hole on my front doors
and I am going to put 5.25" comps there instead, but am considering putting walmart ribbon tweeters right next to the mids on the door. Is that ribbon tweeter position too off axis and too far?

Or should I us the regular dome tweeters on the door and find a way to mount the ribbons on the dash?

What should I do?


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## zachcopp

For those who have ribbons in their car, do you use it as a 2 way or 3 way set up? So, is it the stand alone tweeter and then say a 6.5 and that is it. Or is it used as a mid? Just curious what some are doing. Thanks for the input!


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## distronic

I haven't started on my build yet, but will be using the LCY-130s in a 3-way setup, with the Scan-Speak 12M Revelators as my midrange drivers.


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## zachcopp

I am thinking of a very similar set up. What kind of cap are you going to run with those lcy 130s?


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## cvjoint

Some of you guys may have been buying planar tweeters instead of real ribbons. I'm guessing the walmart ones are planars. In some of these cases, the planar tweeters are indeed open back and you may want to enclose them. 

The poor vertical dispersion is ameliorated with a short height split ribbon element see LCY, with foam attachments see RAAL or if I'm correct the texture of the element itself and faceplate design again see RAAL. 

The challenges of using ribbons in a car are many, and the dispersion is one of the last in my mind. The ribbon material itself is very fragile, mounted high the wind f*&ks with it, mounted low you may get debris on it, always use a cap inline. I found the high temperatures to stress the ribbon, glue, and special magnet coatings. Lastly mounting it is a *****, you need lots of room and to angle it properly if you don't want the dispersion to be very limited. Unless you pair with a very small midbass, like a good 6.5 max you will get too much distortion out of them. Use preferably in a 3 way crossed 4,000hz or higher. 

Given you follow most of this religiously you will get a sound that's very different the the average 1 inch dome. It's neat and very rewarding.


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## zachcopp

What kind of cap needs to be used? I have looked on parts express and seen some 250v caps, as well as 400v caps. The 250 are much more expensive. Just curious what the difference is and which ones I should use. Hopefully the 400v ones! Save some money


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## cvjoint

zachcopp said:


> What kind of cap needs to be used? I have looked on parts express and seen some 250v caps, as well as 400v caps. The 250 are much more expensive. Just curious what the difference is and which ones I should use. Hopefully the 400v ones! Save some money


I used the same ones npdang posted on the first page of this thread: Solen 27uF poly cap


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## distronic

*Capacitor Specifics*

Just to clarify, as I am about to purchase the capacitors. Is this the one: Solen Electronique Inc. ?

Actually I'm still confused. like zachopp said, 250v or the 400v one?


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## xanderin

Ok, First off the voltage rating is completely dependent on the power you are sending to the Ribbons. I cant imagine you sending enough power to kill either of these capacitors before destroying your tweeter. I dont understand why you would use 27uF on an 8 ohm tweeter. Mathematically this is a 725hz 6dB corssover. That seems incredibly low. Maybe Npdang has experience that shows why he used this. I just search the internet for my answers  Check out the calc at http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/crosscalc.asp to determine what capacitor to use. Note you are looking at "C1" for a 6db crossover.
http://www.lcy.com.hk/shopimages/25114/mmobj/Application-01.jpg
These are LCY's suggested networks. 
For a simple crossover try this which nets you a ~2000hz 6db crossover.


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## emak212

Great insight into transcending the fine lines between car and home audio! I have always loved the sound of ribbon tweeters on home monitor speakers. Higher speaker sensitivity is always a plus.


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## kevin k.

cvjoint said:


> Some of you guys may have been buying planar tweeters instead of real ribbons. I'm guessing the walmart ones are planars. In some of these cases, the planar tweeters are indeed open back and you may want to enclose them.
> 
> The poor vertical dispersion is ameliorated with a short height split ribbon element see LCY, with foam attachments see RAAL or if I'm correct the texture of the element itself and faceplate design again see RAAL.
> 
> The challenges of using ribbons in a car are many, and the dispersion is one of the last in my mind. The ribbon material itself is very fragile, mounted high the wind f*&ks with it, mounted low you may get debris on it, always use a cap inline. I found the high temperatures to stress the ribbon, glue, and special magnet coatings. Lastly mounting it is a *****, you need lots of room and to angle it properly if you don't want the dispersion to be very limited. Unless you pair with a very small midbass, like a good 6.5 max you will get too much distortion out of them. Use preferably in a 3 way crossed 4,000hz or higher.
> 
> Given you follow most of this religiously you will get a sound that's very different the the average 1 inch dome. It's neat and very rewarding.


Good advice for the most part, George, although I'm not so sure about the "follow most of this religiously" as it's not exactly gospel in my experience. I've never used a cap in-line with ribbons and have yet to fry one. The LCY and AC tweeters are perhaps more apt for your suggestions, but the RAAL's I've owned and used in my system defy the norm. Particularly, my OEM-only 70-20XR's were used up on the dash and in each corner and were x-ed to my ATC mids at anywhere between 1.8 kHz 4th order to 3.2 kHz 2nd order and are among the best, if not the best, tweeters I've used. Yeah, you're reading it right... they are designed to operate, if I'm remembering the exact specs correctly, with an electrical first order that yields an acoustical 4th order at 1.8 kHz.


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## stills

personally i'd run caps until i had everything dialed in, just to be on the safe side,


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## cvjoint

xanderin said:


> Ok, First off the voltage rating is completely dependent on the power you are sending to the Ribbons. I cant imagine you sending enough power to kill either of these capacitors before destroying your tweeter. I dont understand why you would use 27uF on an 8 ohm tweeter. Mathematically this is a 725hz 6dB corssover. That seems incredibly low. Maybe Npdang has experience that shows why he used this. I just search the internet for my answers  Check out the calc at http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/crosscalc.asp to determine what capacitor to use. Note you are looking at "C1" for a 6db crossover.
> http://www.lcy.com.hk/shopimages/25114/mmobj/Application-01.jpg
> These are LCY's suggested networks.
> For a simple crossover try this which nets you a ~2000hz 6db crossover.


The inline cap is not supposed to work as a crossover network, not in the usual sense. It's there to protect the fragile ribbon element from turn on thumps or even the occasional oh S*&t moment where you forget to put a HP filter on it. The filter is low on purpose, so that you can choose your HP and not have to worry overlapping with the cap effects. 



kevin k. said:


> Good advice for the most part, George, although I'm not so sure about the "follow most of this religiously" as it's not exactly gospel in my experience. I've never used a cap in-line with ribbons and have yet to fry one. The LCY and AC tweeters are perhaps more apt for your suggestions, but the RAAL's I've owned and used in my system defy the norm. Particularly, my OEM-only 70-20XR's were used up on the dash and in each corner and were x-ed to my ATC mids at anywhere between 1.8 kHz 4th order to 3.2 kHz 2nd order and are among the best, if not the best, tweeters I've used. Yeah, you're reading it right... they are designed to operate, if I'm remembering the exact specs correctly, with an electrical first order that yields an acoustical 4th order at 1.8 kHz.


Well Kevin the gear you use is not exactly the norm, nothing in your arsenal is commonly used, heck I don't think anyone on the site has either OEM Raal (not even the common Raal), ATC mids, or the tricked out C2k. In the low end of the spectrum there are much more fragile ribbons that can't handle the low crossover points or the turn on thumps from low to mid end amplifiers. The gear you own is the exception, not the norm.


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## p928gts1

ATC are rare but not impossible to find. I have use a 24" planar in the car before and its a ***** to mount but rewards you with a pass band of 500hz to 18khz or so. you gotta eq the top end alittle to get it to shine. one driver with 100w covering that much pass band makes for a very unique sound normal found only in high end systems


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## fish

p928gts1 said:


> ATC are rare but not impossible to find. I have use a 24" planar in the car before and its a ***** to mount but rewards you with a pass band of 500hz to 18khz or so. you gotta eq the top end alittle to get it to shine. one driver with 100w covering that much pass band makes for a very unique sound normal found only in high end systems



24" planar!  How & where did you mount it? Do you have any pics?


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## 8675309

I would be curious on what it does to the sound stage?



fish said:


> 24" planar!  How & where did you mount it? Do you have any pics?


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## p928gts1

The were mounted in the apillar of a mini van with about 2" depth behind them. i have removed them months ago for proto typing other planars in the van. i will make sure i take pics from now on since i have had alot of request to show how they were mounted.
the sound stage is beyond normal, having 500hz and above on axis with minimal reflections makes for very easy to listen to at very high levels. its one of those moments were you sit back and listen to music for hours in your car because it sounds so good and very wide sound stage.


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## NickMDX

What are you all using to power your ribbons? I'm looking for a high quality low power amp to power some BG Neo3 PDR tweeters! Any recommendations?

Also, any input on ribbons vs. planar magnetic tweeters? I use Aurum Cantus ribbons in my home speakers but have heard excellent (albeit slightly different sounding) results in the home audio world from the Neo3's and other BG's along with Magnepans and other planar magnetic drivers. Seems to me like the price is right with the neo3's and they seem like they would possibly be easier to mount (A-pillar stock Bose tweeter location). Anyways I'm going to give them a try.

Anyways back on track, Amp suggestions anyone?? Thanks for any recommendations.


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## p928gts1

I use the Jl audio 300/4 for ease of adjustment front stage. 24db sloped crossovers really help being built into the amp. Plenty of power to do what you want and allows you to make changes quickly. Drop me an email [email protected] and I can go over some basic install tips for the build and tuning you front stage after you have power turned on
Good luck
Robert


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## distronic

Just a heads-up to anyone considering the LCY's. I ran them for a few weeks here in SoCal and I think the heat fried them or did some damage on the inside. I didn't have them installed in any enclosure though, just sitting on the dash. That's my fault and I guess it is to be expected, but I figured that the robust housing would have been just fine. I first started to notice that my sound was getting a lot more hollow or less airy. Finally, I tried running the auto-eq on my P01 and that is when I got the SPL error for it not being able to detect the sound level.


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