# Deadening Tire Noise At The Source - Fender Liners?



## Steve Sr (Jun 9, 2018)

With a lot of newer cars they are now using plastic fender liners. When you hit them with your knuckles they sound like a drum. So I am wondering if it is advisable to somehow treat these to block road/tire noise at the source before it can find its way into the vehicle.

Any thoughts on whether this is effective and, if so, how to go about doing it (materials, techniques, etc).


Thanks,
Steve


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## RockamyZ (Apr 29, 2017)

Some manufacturers do deaden the liners. Ford explorers use what looks like that hard to get 3M deadener affixed to the liner. Makes sense to me though I personally have not done it (yet). Thinking of jamming some Roxul rock wool in the wheel wells and see what happens.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

No reason to do the rears on my truck. but I did it on the front wheel linersand it def helped inside the cab. I added CLD/CCF/and MLV glued to the fender liners. All of it is weather proof including the vinyl glue. Go for it!!!

Of course, one of the most effective tire noise "treatments" is to buy quieter tires...of course only as long as they meet your other tire requirements.


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## Steve Sr (Jun 9, 2018)

RockamyZ said:


> Some manufacturers do deaden the liners. Ford explorers use what looks like that hard to get 3M deadener affixed to the liner. Makes sense to me though I personally have not done it (yet). Thinking of jamming some Roxul rock wool in the wheel wells and see what happens.


I think that I saw that the 3M deadener was just CLD material in a slightly different packaging. I bet it is kind of pricey too!


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## lashlee (Aug 16, 2007)

I drive a 2014 Honda Accord Hybrid that uses a felt like material on the fender liners of all four wheels and some flat panels on the underside of the floor. It seems to work well, though it would be hard to get results with and without them installed. My wife's Volvo SUV also has some similar coating on the rear wheel liners.


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## kanadian-kaos (Sep 12, 2010)

lashlee said:


> I drive a 2014 Honda Accord Hybrid that uses a felt like material on the fender liners of all four wheels and some flat panels on the underside of the floor. It seems to work well, though it would be hard to get results with and without them installed. My wife's Volvo SUV also has some similar coating on the rear wheel liners.


Grand Cherokee has a similar material. Quite effective. Almost like an industrial felt/carpet. It is on the outside of the plastic wheel liner so you don't hear rocks.


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## Steve Sr (Jun 9, 2018)

seafish said:


> No reason to do the rears on my truck. but I did it on the front wheel linersand it def helped inside the cab. I added CLD/CCF/and MLV glued to the fender liners. All of it is weather proof including the vinyl glue. Go for it!!!


I am not convinced that going past CLD would be worth the extra time and effort. MLV is blocker which is ONLY effective if you can completely seal everything up. If you can't the noise just sneaks around it. CLD should kill the resonance of the plastic by itself.




seafish said:


> Of course, one of the most effective tire noise "treatments" is to buy quieter tires...of course only as long as they meet your other tire requirements.


My tires are the original OEM and are known to be problematic. However at only 10K miles a year I will probably have them for too long a time! After all of the sound deadening AND new tires (eventually) the Rav should be extremely quiet! I just decided to speed things up a bit!


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## Steve Sr (Jun 9, 2018)

kanadian-kaos said:


> Grand Cherokee has a similar material. Quite effective. Almost like an industrial felt/carpet. It is on the outside of the plastic wheel liner so you don't hear rocks.


The felt is an absorber which is not nearly as critical to seal for it to be effective. It is actually called Jute. I would think that it would have to be synthetic to survive moisture in that application. Anybody know where to get it from? I would think that this on top of CLD would be the ticket!


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## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

This weekend I did the rear fenders of a 2017 Corvette. They have composite fiber wheel liners. Sort of like a compressed felt that had been glued to hold its shape. I put CLD on the wheel side of the wheel well (this is plastic in a Corvette). I was planning on doing the liners also but the CLD wouldn't stick to them. I figured doing the liners wouldn't be a big difference, but every db in reduction adds up. Alas the fibrous nature of them makes me think nothing would reliably stay put, so I wont be pursuing that further.

Even without the CLD on the liners it made a very noticeable difference. I still have to do the interior but it is encouraging that I got so much for what little I've done so far.


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## Mad Scientist (Feb 12, 2017)

Steve Sr said:


> The felt is an absorber which is not nearly as critical to seal for it to be effective. It is actually called Jute. I would think that it would have to be synthetic to survive moisture in that application. Anybody know where to get it from? I would think that this on top of CLD would be the ticket!


Automotive - Sutherland Felt Company

^ they've been an OEM supplier for a long time. There are numerous varieties and thicknesses depending on application.


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## mattkim1337 (Jan 31, 2018)

Changing my OEM tires made more of a difference to road noise than sound deadening (CLD/MLV). But, sound deadening serves other purposes like vibration damping so it's worth it for SQ builds.


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## Steve Sr (Jun 9, 2018)

Mad Scientist said:


> Automotive - Sutherland Felt Company
> 
> ^ they've been an OEM supplier for a long time. There are numerous varieties and thicknesses depending on application.


Great reference! I have spent a lot of a nasty hot afternoon combing the web for a good source of this material. I think I may call Sutherland tomorrow and talk to an apps engineer to see which specific products they recommend for this application. I am assuming that it will be 100% polyester due to moisture. For density I am thinking probably in the range of a minimum of 30oz./sq.yd. 

Then I will have to find someone who will sell a relatively small quantity (like a yard). Sutherland's direct sales outlet looks like about $100 minimum order for waaaay more that I would need.

In case this doesn't work out here is what I have found so far...

Foss Specialty Materials - Not much specific on their web site.

Foss Performance Materials

Small quantity from Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Automotive-S...006LNWE7W/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

A couple of other Amazon links but no real composition/density specs:

https://www.amazon.com/Automotive-j..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=EJWKXGBKDQS66KBENVG0

https://www.amazon.com/Headliner-Do..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=XRYD11JZ4NDRJF3G1Z44


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Steve Sr said:


> I am not convinced that going past CLD would be worth the extra time and effort. *MLV is blocker which is ONLY effective if you can completely seal everything up*. If you can't the noise just sneaks around it. CLD should kill the resonance of the plastic by itself.


^In general, yes, but depending on the specific application, that's not entirely true. And CLD will help a bit, but will mostly just lower the resonant frequency of the wheel well liner, which is less effective when you are already dealing with very low frequencies caused by the tires, suspension, and engine/exhaust.

IMO what you want to do is Block/Reflect/Dissipate that vibrational energy out and away from the vehicle so less of it tries to inject itself into the actual wheel well liner (a large panel in itself) and energize that liner or any of the surrounding sheetmetal & frame of the vehicle. The shape of the wheel well liners make them somewhat good reflectors, and MLV can improve their performance in that way. It's not as easy or even possible to _absorb_ really low frequencies using somewhat thin materials as it is to reflect them.

If CLD will stick SECURELY to the wheel well liner, definitely use it. But remember that this area can be greatly affected by extremely wide Hot/Cold temperature cycles resulting from both atmospheric conditions AND engine/exhaust heat, in addition to being exposed to moisture.

I've been successfully treating wheel well liners using a 3-layer sandwhich (where space or clearance allows) using:

1. A bonded-to-the-wheel-liner layer of 1/4"-1/2" thick CCF Neoprene/Rubber as an isolator/1st absorber.

2. Then a layer of MLV as a barrier/reflector.

3. Then another layer of CCF as an absorber/damper.


I've treated at least six different vehicles this way, and in all cases it made a _Substantial_ difference, and exponentially better than just using CLD.


The second thing to check for (or upgrade/modify) are the molded Styrofoam Fender Blocks inserted inside of each front fender just behind the front door's vertical hinge plate/door jamb. Nearly all vehicles produced within the last 5 years have these styrofoam blocks in the front fenders that are placed up against the back side of the front door hinges.

These molded styrofoam blocks help to further block and reduce the vibration and noise coming from the front tires and wheel wells and keep it from transferring to the kickpanel area and through to the front doors and their large/expansive panels.

In vehicles that do not have these styrofoam "door jam/fender blocks", you can insert your own DIY version into the front door jamb area in the front fenders by removing the front wheel well liners.

I've used Roxul "Safe N' Sound" rock wool insulation and/or a rolled-up composite of layers of CCF + MLV bound up in a roll with zip ties and bagged with HD plastic sheeting/bags.

You can cut one end of your sheets of CCF and MLV on a diagonal or arc to create a "tapered roll" when the layers are rolled up (like rolled up croissant dough or a mummy/cocoon style sleeping bag) so that it fits the vertically arced or tapered space of the inner door jamb. Think of the shape of a giant, vertical marijuana joint stuffed into the vertical door jam inside the front fenders. 


To protect these from moisture, I actually prefer using the large, clear, extremely tough heat- & puncture-resistant "Turkey Oven Bags" to constrain, secure, and seal the insulation. The entire "assembly" can be easily press-fit into place against the door jamb and hinges inside the front wheel wells. You could use some spray contact adhesive to help hold them in place as well. They will also be contained by the wheel well liner.

If you are in a rural area or have problems with mice, rats, or other small rodents, you might want to protect these with some repellant as this is the perfect "bedding material" for rodents. I use the old farmer's/rancher's trick:

Lightly Boil and Stir a 1/2 Cup of Crushed Red Pepper (the type you put on your pizza) in 2 Cups of light Canola or Vegetable Oil for at least 5 minutes. Do this in a highly ventilated area because this is basically like making DIY Pepper Spray!!! You'll cry & cough for a half hour or more if you even so much as get a wiff of this stuff!!! 

Cover the boiling oil concoction and then let it completely cool while remaining covered. Once the boiled concoction has cooled completely, pour the oil and crushed peppers through a fine metal mesh kitchen strainer & funnel into an empty, generic spray bottle so that all that goes into the bottle is the oil. You also might want to wear latex or rubber gloves, a mask, and even goggles during this entire process...you don't want this on your skin or the fumes in your eyes or lungs!

Once the oil is in the spray bottle, LIGHTLY spray the concoction all over the surface of the Roxul insulation or your CCF/MLV sheets and then place the insulation into the plastic bags and seal them up.

NOTE: This "pepper spray" also works excellent as a deer and garden/insect repellent and if sprayed around under the hood of your vehicle to keep rodents from chewing up your spark plug wires, vacuum hoses, and electrical wiring, etc. (Farmers & ranchers use this on their tractors and other farm equipment).

You can also use water to boil the crushed red pepper and spray it instead of the oil because the natural oils in the crushed red pepper are extracted into the water...you just have to wait for your insulation pieces to dry before you seal it up, and the potency of the spray won't be quite as strong or as permanent.

IMPORTANT: Obviously, you want to be very careful to NOT spray this concoction anywhere it might be vented into the cabin of the vehicle....unless you want to play a cruel joke on one of your buddies!  And also be VERY CAREFUL any time you are boiling or handling hot oil!




Steve Sr said:


> My tires are the original OEM and are known to be problematic. However at only 10K miles a year I will probably have them for too long a time! After all of the sound deadening AND new tires (eventually) the Rav should be extremely quiet! I just decided to speed things up a bit!


If your tires are still in good shape with plenty of tread left and nice, even wear, you might be able to sell them at a decent enough price to make it worth upgrading. It depends on your location & area, but tires are a major expense for a lot of people and many look for any type of deal they can find through Craigslist or local classifieds.

Quieter tires CAN make a HUGE difference in the road noise that you experience. However, not all "quiet" tires are "good" tires. Quiet tires may make compromises in other areas such as tread wear/longevity and performance. IME, Quiet tires that also have excellent wear and top notch all-season performance usually use the most advanced rubber compounds and high-tech tread designs, and therefore are usually at or near the top of the price range. 

But Excellent Performance in a wide range of conditions is most important to me in terms of handling and overall safety when choosing a set of tires. For instance, if a particular set of tires allows you to stop your vehicle 10ft to 20ft sooner than a competing model in wet or dry conditions, that alone might allow you to avoid an accident, and/or injury to yourself and others...and perhaps thousands of dollars in repairs or medical bills.

For those reasons, I always buy the best-performing tires that I possibly can, even if that means a slight trade-off in tread life and/or quietness. But I usually try to find the best tire that I can that is also as quiet as possible.

Most recently, one of the best-performing tires that I've found that are also very Quiet are the Michelin Premier LTX. These are not inexpensive tires, but they're also not the most expensive either. They generally come in higher load capacities & speed ratings than most equivalents, while also remaining relatively lightweight. Of course, like any tire, this particular model isn't available for all vehicles or in all sizes.

Not too long ago, I swapped the OEM tires on my girlfriend's CUV daily driver way earlier than normally required because even though the OEM tires had plenty of tread wear left, they were becoming noticeably skittish and scary to drive with, routinely "breaking free" even with normal excelleration from a stoplight! The difference with the new Michelin's was Night And Day, and the expense was easily worth our peace of mind.

Anyway...my .02


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## Steve Sr (Jun 9, 2018)

bbfoto said:


> ^In general, yes, but depending on the specific application, that's not entirely true. And CLD will help a bit, but will mostly just lower the resonant frequency of the wheel well liner, which is less effective when you are already dealing with very low frequencies caused by the tires, suspension, and engine/exhaust.
> 
> IMO what you want to do is Block/Reflect/Dissipate that vibrational energy out and away from the vehicle so less of it tries to inject itself into the actual wheel well liner (a large panel in itself) and energize that liner or any of the surrounding sheetmetal & frame of the vehicle. The shape of the wheel well liners make them somewhat good reflectors, and MLV can improve their performance in that way. It's not as easy or even possible to _absorb_ really low frequencies using somewhat thin materials as it is to reflect them.
> 
> ...



Thanks for all of the great tips! That home made pepper spray sounds interesting. I have had mice try to eat their way into the ventilation system in my 01 Highlander. A mouse trap on the strut tower stabilizer bar ended quite a few. Now I just feed them Rozol from a nearby bait station. Haven't seen any new evidence in the Rav4.

I don't know what Toyota has done with the front wheel wells other than they sound like a drum when hit with your knuckles. If it is like the rest of the vehicle I wouldn't expect much soundproofing under the fender liner.

So have you ever tried an absorber like jute/felt or Roxul on the top of the fender liner or only near the firewall? I was wondering about a comparison between an absorber and MLV in this location?

BTW, do you have any links to any photos of this work?


Thanks,
Steve


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## Second Skin (Aug 5, 2010)

Mass Loaded Vinyl Luxury Liner Pro in the wheel wells works very well at blocking noise at the source. You do have to take extra steps to use methods that will secure the product more firmly then glue. We also have customers who attache it to the top side of the wheel well liners after spraying the plastic liner with Spectrum and get great results (a plastic primer is required before using Spectrum on plastic parts).


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## CAudio (Aug 29, 2016)

You can carefully use polyurethane expanding foam and spray it into or behind the wheel well/fender liners so long as you can control the level of expansion. You can trim it easily afterwards.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

mattkim1337 said:


> Changing my OEM tires made more of a difference to road noise than sound deadening (CLD/MLV). But, sound deadening serves other purposes like vibration damping so it's worth it for SQ builds.


This was my experience too. I did a bunch of sound deadening nonsense on my 2001 Accord, and it didn't make a damn difference.

I didn't put a single square inch of sound deadening on my 2005 Accord, but I swapped out the tires for low-rolling-resistance tires, and the sound difference was tremendous.

On the downside, my braking and handling suffered.

My mileage went up quite a bit.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Patrick Bateman said:


> On the downside, my braking and handling suffered.
> 
> My mileage went up quite a bit.


I can't handle low rolling resistance tires, they're frankly awful. I swapped mine with Michelin Pilot Super Sports and never looked back.


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

FWIW, low rolling resistance does NOT mean quieter..... that comes from the tread design and compounds. The softer the compound, the lower the noise tends to be. The more closed the tread blocks are at the shoulder, the quieter the tire tends to be.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

danno14 said:


> FWIW, low rolling resistance does NOT mean quieter..... that comes from the tread design and compounds. The softer the compound, the lower the noise tends to be. The more closed the tread blocks are at the shoulder, the quieter the tire tends to be.


I tend to make the smooth ones howl like dogs... 


How much of the sound is the tire slapping the road, and exciting the air?
And...
How much is the same tire slapping and vibration which ends up telegraphing in through the suspension?

It is probably frequency dependant.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

danno14 said:


> FWIW, low rolling resistance does NOT mean quieter..... that comes from the tread design and compounds. The softer the compound, the lower the noise tends to be. The more closed the tread blocks are at the shoulder, the quieter the tire tends to be.


Oh yeah that reminds me of the point I was getting to with my prior post. The Michelin Pilot Super Sports were quieter too. Go figure.


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## Doubledeckersoulwrecker! (Aug 20, 2017)

A company called Restomod Air recently came out with a butyl/foil/rubberclosedcellfoam/foil product called Membrane. I lined the metal wheel well (on the outside of the car) and used foil tape on all the edges to seal them up from moisture. This has been the largest decrease in road noise I've ever had. The whole Subaru was very well treated prior to this also


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## Steve Sr (Jun 9, 2018)

Well here is an update...

I bought a yard of Thermozite which is a 1/2" thick foil backed polyester jute product. It has been sitting around for a while and finally had some extended dry weather to rip out the fender liners and get it installed. I have some before and after photos that I will try to post...

As you can see from the "before" photo there was almost NO sound deadening material at all! The white pads were removed and the inside of the liner was cleaned.

The Thermozite was next installed using hot melt glue. After this was complete the Thermozite was trimmed along the edges with a pair of VERY sharp scissors.

As you can see Toyota put a sealed sound barrier between the fender and body to block noise from hitting the front edges of the front doors. However, they left open some bare metal in the kick panel as a potential noise entrance into the cabin.

I decided to treat this with some CCF/MLV strips secured with Velcro. I extended the MLV about 1/2" past the edge of the metal. I didn't want to go any further as this area collects leaves and debris which I didn't want to dislodge the MLV strip.

As for results I can say that this mod made a very noticeable difference in the amount of tire noise that made its way into the cabin. It also didn't cost a lot or add much weight to the vehicle.

Comments? Questions? Thoughts on the effectiveness of my installation techniques? Anything I missed?


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

Why did you bother to use Thermozite over CLD and not cover the whole fender in MLV? Seems like a wasted opportunity.


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

Look for Marine carpet if you don't have wheel liners.

I'm planning on doing my front fender liners with CLD and MLV.


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## Steve Sr (Jun 9, 2018)

K-pop sucks said:


> Why did you bother to use Thermozite over CLD and not cover the whole fender in MLV? Seems like a wasted opportunity.


There is no CLD. Other experts here might disagree but the plastic liners don't really resonate like the metal panels that CLD was designed for. 

MLV is a colossal PITA to work with on irregular surfaces like this and then to expect the liner to go back in without cutting holes in your MLV. The effectiveness of MLV is also greatly reduced by holes or gaps. The noise just goes around it. Just crack your window and notice all of the noise that comes in the hole and around the noise blocking glass.

I was trying to replicate the prior art that has disappeared from modern vehicles due to mostly weight and cost constraints. The Thermozite is a noise absorber and works good at absorbing a lot of the medium and high frequency noise that tries to get into the fender well compartment.


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## Steve Sr (Jun 9, 2018)

K-pop sucks said:


> Look for Marine carpet if you don't have wheel liners.


I suspect that marine carpet is just a thinner version of Thermozite without the foil liner.



K-pop sucks said:


> I'm planning on doing my front fender liners with CLD and MLV.


Let us know how this works out. Take some good photos! Both before and after.


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

I've got my supplies on the way. I'm planning on doing the engine side firewall and front wheel wells first with mlv and cld. I've researched how Lexus ls, Mercedes s class, and Rolls-Royce deadens the engine bay.

I measured my noise lvl on the freeway at 65mph. My decibel showed 70db consistently.


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## Steve Sr (Jun 9, 2018)

K-pop sucks said:


> I've researched how Lexus ls, Mercedes s class, and Rolls-Royce deadens the engine bay.


Care to share this info to benefit the rest of the forum members? Photos would actually be nice as well.


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## Morton (Jun 29, 2020)

Steve Sr said:


> Well here is an update...
> 
> I bought a yard of Thermozite which is a 1/2" thick foil backed polyester jute product. It has been sitting around for a while and finally had some extended dry weather to rip out the fender liners and get it installed. I have some before and after photos that I will try to post...
> 
> ...



Finally! This is exactly what I have been thinking of doing to my Toyota Avensis. Great pictures. BUT, my only concern is, how much trouble or work is it usually to remove these inner plastic liners from a Toyota?

(The thread is maybe a little old, but I hope someone still reads it)


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## alligatorman (Sep 7, 2010)

This worked good for me.
Underbody and fender liners. 2 thick coats.






Liquid Sound Deadener for Cars - Second Skin Audio


Paint sound deadening is a leading option for reducing structural noise in vehicles. Learn about soundproof paint and what to consider when buying!




www.secondskinaudio.com


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## K-pop sucks (May 28, 2018)

I never followed through with this. My Toyota doesn't have any fender liners in the rear and barely any coverage on the front.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

bbfoto said:


> ^In general, yes, but depending on the specific application, that's not entirely true. And CLD will help a bit, but will mostly just lower the resonant frequency of the wheel well liner, which is less effective when you are already dealing with very low frequencies caused by the tires, suspension, and engine/exhaust.
> 
> IMO what you want to do is Block/Reflect/Dissipate that vibrational energy out and away from the vehicle so less of it tries to inject itself into the actual wheel well liner (a large panel in itself) and energize that liner or any of the surrounding sheetmetal & frame of the vehicle. The shape of the wheel well liners make them somewhat good reflectors, and MLV can improve their performance in that way. It's not as easy or even possible to _absorb_ really low frequencies using somewhat thin materials as it is to reflect them.
> 
> ...



Do you have any pics of how you did the fender liners wild cld/mlv/ect?


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

I think that I do have a few photos of it, but that was YEARS ago and I have no idea what hard drive I saved them on.

And doing this is a Sh!t Ton of work, and when you're doing it, you really just want to Get It Done! So I didn't stop and take the time to completely document the process. It's definitely worth it IMO (obviously depending on the specific vehicle). But I also can't say it was all that pretty, either, LOL.

But I will check and get back here if I find any of the photos. I really need to organize all of my car audio photos anyway!

When you work in the photography industry, pretty much the last thing you want to do when you get home "to relax" and get out into the workshop to pursue one of your other hobbies is to take more photos, haha. So I really haven't taken as many as I wish I had. 

It's kind of like most professional musicians. You would think that they all would have a killer audiophile system at home and in their cars. Very few of them actually do! At least not to the extent or level that we would take it.

As an example, I became friends with a few of the guys from Incubus way back. I had worked a ton with Carolyn Murphy (supermodel) and she introduced me to them.

Most of them had "a system" in their vehicle, but it was just the usual "loud and clean" R-F or JL Audio type system. No imaging, depth, or soundstage whatsoever, and lacking most of the fine details and nuances that we really enjoy.

One day after hanging out and surfing at 3rd point Malibu and Westward Beach, a few of them sat in my old Landcruiser in the parking lot and "cranked some tunes". Their jaws literally dropped and they giggled like schoolgirls.

They were really surprised and didn't know that you could have that "in the room with you" realism, soundstaging, and pinpoint imaging, along with the impact and clarity in the midbass and bass...at least not in a car audio system. The Landcruiser was dubbed, "Billy's Studio On Wheels" after that, haha.

I offered to help them dial in their systems if they were interested, but at the time they were pretty busy just hangin' out and being rock stars, LOL, so nothing ever came of it.

Anywhooo...


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

bbfoto said:


> I think that I do have a few photos of it, but that was YEARS ago and I have no idea what hard drive I saved them on.
> 
> And doing this is a Sh!t Ton of work, and when you're doing it, you really just want to Get It Done! So I didn't stop and take the time to completely document the process. It's definitely worth it IMO (obviously depending on the specific vehicle). But I also can't say it was all that pretty, either, LOL.


Thanks. I'd certainly appreciate it a lot.


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## robabeatle (Jun 24, 2020)

I just finished 40 hours of putting in cld, ccf, and mlv in my truck: floors, back wall, rear doors, and double in the front doors. I went up the inside firewall a bit as well. The headliner has cld and some thermal liner like dynaliner. I followed the sound deadening showdown site: sealed the seams with the nasty glue. 

Frankly, I was expecting more. It is noticeable esp. when I hit a pothole, not nearly as loud. My suspension is garbage which is creating a lot of oscillations and my tires are known to not be the quietest. So I have both those on the list next.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

robabeatle said:


> I just finished 40 hours of putting in cld, ccf, and mlv in my truck: floors, back wall, rear doors, and double in the front doors. I went up the inside firewall a bit as well. The headliner has cld and some thermal liner like dynaliner. I followed the sound deadening showdown site: sealed the seams with the nasty glue.
> 
> Frankly, I was expecting more. It is noticeable esp. when I hit a pothole, not nearly as loud. My suspension is garbage which is creating a lot of oscillations and my tires are known to not be the quietest. So I have both those on the list next.


Dynaliner full treatment on my turbo diesel mitsubishi challenger 4WD now quiet like a luxury sedan. Heat dyna treatment too. Both awesome. Might do wheel arches see if i can improve it.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

robabeatle said:


> I just finished 40 hours of putting in cld, ccf, and mlv in my truck: floors, back wall, rear doors, and double in the front doors. I went up the inside firewall a bit as well. The headliner has cld and some thermal liner like dynaliner. I followed the sound deadening showdown site: sealed the seams with the nasty glue.
> 
> Frankly, I was expecting more. It is noticeable esp. when I hit a pothole, not nearly as loud. My suspension is garbage which is creating a lot of oscillations and my tires are known to not be the quietest. So I have both those on the list next.


New, tires that are specifically designed to be Quiet WILL make a HUGE difference! Probably the single largest difference IME. And the noise that's being injected into the frame and cabin from a vibrating/oscillating suspension is EXTREMELY difficult to do anything about! 

Unfortunately, depending on the specific vehicle, what you can achieve with sound treatment is always limited to the quality/isolation of the suspension, and the quality and amount of seals around all of the doors and windows, in addition to the actual thickness and type of lamination of the glass as well.

On older vehicles, if you've treated everything as best you can, you'll usually notice just the Wind Noise the most due to all of the thin, basic glass and simple door & window seals, while every other part of the vehicle is hush-hush.

But I've found that a major percentage of noise ALWAYS comes through the wheel wells, especially on rough road surfaces.


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## Potatoz78 (May 18, 2021)

bbfoto said:


> New, tires that are specifically designed to be Quiet WILL make a HUGE difference! Probably the single largest difference IME. And the noise that's being injected into the frame and cabin from a vibrating/oscillating suspension is EXTREMELY difficult to do anything about!
> 
> Unfortunately, depending on the specific vehicle, what you can achieve with sound treatment is always limited to the quality/isolation of the suspension, and the quality and amount of seals around all of the doors and windows, in addition to the actual thickness and type of lamination of the glass as well.
> 
> ...


What brands of ccf or mlv are you using in fender liner treatments? What adhesives are you using?


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

I've used lots of various products over the years, but haven't done any objective tests or measurements on any of them in the same vehicle, so I can't really say what products or combinations worked best.

Years ago I ordered a huge roll of 1/8" thick, 1lb per S.F. high-quality MLV from an industrial supplier, so I've mostly used that.

In terms of CCF, one of my best results for the exterior wheel well liners and fender/door jamb block "rolls" was using inexpensive 1/2" thick blue neoprene/sponge type CCF that were actually camping/sleeping bag roll-up pads from a closeout at JOANN's Fabrics & Crafts.  It had extremely low tactile and airborne sound transmission properties.

For "laminating" those products I've used a GE 100% Silicone Aluminum/Metal Lifetime Warranty Mold & Mildew Resistant Metallic Gray caulking sealant (link below), and Loctite PL Premium Fast Grab Polyurethane Construction Adhesive. The GE Silicone is much more flexible and expandable/stretchy when cured. These are both extremely PERMANENT, so don't use them in any areas where you'll need to remove them for auto service or otherwise!

I never use these adhesive to secure anything to the vehicle. For the fender liners, I normally use 1/4"-20 x 1-1/2" diameter stainless steel flat fender washers on both sides with 1/4"-20 x 3/4" to 1" long cap screws and nylock nuts to secure the DIY wheel well liners to the exterior OEM fender/wheel liners. I don't secure it close the outer perimeter edges so that the OEM liners are still easily removable while my DIY liner "sandwhich" remains attached to the interior side of the OEM liners.

It's obviously a bit "ghetto", but it is 100% secure & waterproof, and no one will ever see it.

The fender/door jamb laminated rolls are put into large waterproof and tear-, puncture-, and heat-resistant turkey oven cooking bags, and then compression/press-fit into place. I try to also secure them with large UV- & heat resistant zip ties or copper wire ties, but I've never had them budge once they were press fit









GE Silicone 2*+ Metal Sealant 10.1oz Metallic Gray 2708924 - The Home Depot


GE Metal Silicone 2 Sealant is a high-performance, 100% silicone and 100% waterproof sealant ideal for a wide range of metal projects. Common uses include repairing and sealing sheds, siding, gutters,



www.homedepot.com





You could probably save yourself heaps of time and trouble by simply using the new _*ResoNix*_ CFF/Lead Sheet/CCF barrier. The lead sheet is a much better (and thinner) sound barrier compared to the MLV, and it's already encapsulated between the inner and outer CCF.

When I use this type of sandwich isolator/barrier on the interior behind OEM panels I try not to adhere it to the vehicle if at all possible, and just let it be "gravity fit" or "wedged" into place. For vertical panels I will try to "hang" it using Zip Ties where possible or use a few patches of the industrial Velcro.

For the roof liner, after applying CLD, I just use evenly-spaced small dabs of the GE Silicone caulk to secure the foam/MLV sandwhich to the ceiling.

I bought some of those really cheap stamped metal spring loaded/expanding curtain rods and use 1/4" ABS or Masonite/hardboard panels to hold the CCF/MLV into place with the rods and panels while the fast-curing caulk adhesive sets up.

I've had to remove a small section of the CCF/MLV roof liner at the rear of one vehicle to add some wiring for rear hatch/liftgate rear-fill speakers, and the CCF/MLV roof liner was still holding strong, but easy to pull down to place the wires and then re-caulk in place.

Nothing really scientific about it, and it's a sh!t ton of work, LOL. But results have been extremely good.

Note that there are limits to how much of the very low frequency road, engine, and exhaust "rumble" and "drone" you can block. That is more a function of the quality and isolation done by the OEM between the engine/exhaust/suspension/chassis interfaces.

But I've found that I'm way more sensitive to the mid & higher frequency noise anyway, which these techniques really work well to squelch. So unless you do full-spectrum measurements, your microphone measurements or RTA might not show that much of an overall improvement because it is still picking up that persistent low frequency energy, but it definitely has an impact on the rest of the "noise" spectrum.

HTH


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## Potatoz78 (May 18, 2021)

Awesome. Thank you for taking the time to put those ideas down on the screen. 

So to be clear, the fender liner you do is not on the tire facing side, but behind it, interior to the car?


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Potatoz78 said:


> Awesome. Thank you for taking the time to put those ideas down on the screen.
> 
> So to be clear, the fender liner you do is not on the tire facing side, but behind it, interior to the car?


Sorry for not seeing this sooner.

In the past I've placed it both on the tire facing side and/OR on the interior (inside the OEM liner and wheel well within the fender cavity) with good results.

For safety, security, and a seamless/OEM look on my nicer vehicles, the last few times I've done this have only been on the inside of the OEM liner, not exposed to the exterior tire side.

But it really depends on the particular vehicle and how much room there is on either side of the OEM liner, taking into account the clearance of your wheels/tires to the OEM wheel liners, etc.

The clearances are going to be much different for a low & sleek sports car fitted with large wheels & low-profile performance tires that has limited suspension travel, vs a truck, SUV, or crossover vehicle that has a lot more clearance and suspension travel.

I also normally use this MLV/CCF sandwich combination on top of the rear wheel well sheet metal inside the rear of the car (after applying CLD), providing it will fit under the interior OEM trim panels with no fitment issues.

With the new CCF/Lead sheet laminated product that is now available from *ResoNix* (which is extremely thin but still very effective), I would probably apply it to the tire facing side of the OEM wheel well liner...exposed to the outside.

And if there was also plenty of room on the inner fender/wheel well, I would probably use my cheaper & thicker MLV & CCF sandwich since I already have a large supply of those materials.

I forgot to mention it, but a few times I've also used thin rubber fender washers on the fasteners that hold the plastic liners into the wheel wells to try to reduce the direct transmission of the noise induced into the liner from transferring to the sheet metal/body. I can't really say how effective it was, tho'. Just kind of an easy, inexpensive, "it can't hurt" approach.

HTH


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