# Ways to lower voltage/power on tweeters?



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

Im trying to lower power going to the tweeters as I'm getting a high noise floor and id like to match where my mid range speakers are better. Can I wire 4ohm tweeters in series to 8ohm so they don't have as much power? my amp is 125x4 rms rated power and the tweeters are all the way down on gain. I have a dsp so I can adjust the crossover slope I'm not sure if going from 4ohm to 8ohm will change much on the tweeters they are at 24db slope. Im just trying to get less power out of them so I can match the system better.
How would I wire them in series do I do the left and right tweeter in series or can wire each individually somehow to get to 8ohm? resistor in line?
Im going to be doing the same with the center channel possibly too which is also at 4ohm.


----------



## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

You can wire a resistor or a set of resistors into a circuit with the tweeter to lower the power being delivered to it. Making the tweeter quieter will not improve your noise floor though, since it will still be just as loud relative to the tweeter. You'll have to combat that by checking your power and groun and line level wiring, most likely.

Since you have a DSP, why not lower the output of the tweeter channels a little bit?


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

Jazzi said:


> You can wire a resistor or a set of resistors into a circuit with the tweeter to lower the power being delivered to it. Making the tweeter quieter will not improve your noise floor though, since it will still be just as loud relative to the tweeter. You'll have to combat that by checking your power and groun and line level wiring, most likely.
> 
> Since you have a DSP, why not lower the output of the tweeter channels a little bit?


I understand that completely. I am trying to make the output levels match better with the mid range so I can use the volume knob on the whole system having better matched if that makes sense. The output on the tweeters is a lot less than the mid range I have the output at 0 which id like to match as close as possible and adjust more on the amp side of things. Im using an iPad as my head unit and with my volume for my system I want it to be controlled by the dsp leaving the volume on max on the iPad. So the closer I have all of the speakers to 0 the better for volume levels. 
I can make the noise floor non existent on the tweeter by lowering output voltage but then if I try to adjust whole system volume since my volume knob works with every speaker after the tweeters get all the way down and I start adjusting up again it will throw things off.


----------



## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

Well I'm not really sure what you want. I thought you wanted to make the tweeters play quieter from reading your first post, but your reply seems to say the tweeters are too quiet?

Regardless, the tools most people use for this are adjusting the input gains on the amplifier and/or the output gains on the DSP you're using. If you can't get what you want by adjusting the volume of the tweeter channels, you can also adjust the midrange channels to make them louder or quieter relative to the tweeters.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Jazzi said:


> Well I'm not really sure what you want. I thought you wanted to make the tweeters play quieter from reading your first post, but your reply seems to say the tweeters are too quiet?
> ...


Of it the tweeters are too loud then can you turn the gain down on the amp?

or you need to raise the gain on the midrange and woofers and turn the whole volume know down.

The last thing I would do is add a resister in series with the tweeter.

One can make a voltage divider on the RCA side and knock the input down 10dB there, and then turn the DSP gain up if it is too low.

I cannot imagine many cases where a tweeter needs more than 40W, but they make some that take an astounding amount of power.


----------



## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

If you use a resistor between a tweeter and a crossover, doesn't it change the effective crossover point slightly? Also phasing comes into play?
Same as adding a second tweeter after a crossover. Example having a 8 ohms tweeter and then adding a second 8 ohms tweeter, in parallel, dropping to 4 ohms load. That will slightly change crossover point. Right? I've read that over the years.


----------



## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

Isn't adding a resistor, effectively changing ohms resistance? So by changing ohms load the amplifier see's, will raise or lower volume output of a speaker. Higher the ohms, of course lower volume output at a given volume.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DPGstereo said:


> If you use a resistor between a tweeter and a crossover, doesn't it change the effective crossover point slightly? Also phasing comes into play?
> Same as adding a second tweeter after a crossover. Example having a 8 ohms tweeter and then adding a second 8 ohms tweeter, in parallel, dropping to 4 ohms load. That will slightly change crossover point. Right? I've read that over the years.


A capacitor yes...

The resister would not help the damping factor and speaker control.
But an active cross-over is a bit better in that respect than using a passive cross-over.

Better than just a resister in series may be a 4-ohm in parallel (across the terminals at the speaker, and a 2 or 4 ohm in series between the speakers and the amp.
That is conceptually the same as a power divider on the RCA side, without the damping factor concerns.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

DPGstereo said:


> Isn't adding a resistor, effectively changing ohms resistance? So by changing ohms load the amplifier see's, will raise or lower volume output of a speaker. Higher the ohms, of course lower volume output at a given volume.


A resistor adds resistance (saying "ohms resistance" is the same as saying inches distance, technically it makes sense, but you would never save "I want to lower my car 2 inches distance." An ohm is the unit of measurement for resistance). Adding a resistor in series will do exactly that, add the value of resistance to the existing resistance. Adding a 4 ohm resistor in series with a 4 ohm tweeter will present the amp with an 8 ohm load, halving the power to the tweeter. Keep in mind, the resistor needs to be rated for the power, so those little 1/4 watt resistors aren't going to cut it.


----------



## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Wait! The op is using the iPad as a source, controlling volume with it? Not the ideal situation, using the headset jack to the DSP ( double DA conversion), and probably pre EQ signal.

Maybe the solution would be to make sure the iPad volume limiter and EQ is off.

Best solution if the DSP has a volume knob, connect the iPad to the DSP with the lightning 
Connector, this will avoid using the iPad DA converter, sending digital signal to the DSP.

Another option is would be to set the amp gains about 10% below tweeter power handling rating, cross one octave above recommended x point even having a gap between the midbass and tweeter, or reducing the output level for the tweeters with the DSP or match them between the two like Justin said.

Last option, if nothing mentioned worked, get a good set of tweeters, maybe they can't keep up with the levels they are currently being used for.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

gijoe said:


> A resistor adds resistance (saying "ohms resistance" is the same as saying inches distance, technically it makes sense, but you would never save "I want to lower my car 2 inches distance." An ohm is the unit of measurement for resistance). Adding a resistor in series will do exactly that, add the value of resistance to the existing resistance. Adding a 4 ohm resistor in series with a 4 ohm tweeter will present the amp with an 8 ohm load, halving the power to the tweeter. Keep in mind, the resistor needs to be rated for the power, so those little 1/4 watt resistors aren't going to cut it.


So If my center speaker is rated at 30 watts I'd need a 30 watt resister? Any downside in running the tweeters in series?


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

Alrojoca said:


> Wait! The op is using the iPad as a source, controlling volume with it? Not the ideal situation, using the headset jack to the DSP ( double DA conversion), and probably pre EQ signal.
> 
> Maybe the solution would be to make sure the iPad volume limiter and EQ is off.
> 
> ...


Yes! That's what I'm trying to do. The only issue is with my dsp the volume knob does not have a limit it sounds indefinitely.
I found out that the ipad/iPhone has a clipped signal at 100% volume. One click down it doesn't clip. 
So I'm trying to make sure the output gain settings are the same for each speaker because when I do turn down the system with the volume knob and I go all the way to zero I can go back up without one speaker being out of line if that makes sense. Maybe my dsp will eventually have an update where it controlls this but in the meantime I can only select either level knob for each output. I can select all outputs and have it control system volume. I'll control the bass with a seperate amp knob. 
The only issue I was running into was my amps power is too high for the smaller speakers so on the output side I had to flip the gain jumpers inside the dsp to 5v outs inside of 10v and am having to turn down gain on the amp to zero then eq each speaker I can't have be at the same level. Which is the tweeters. But for the most part I got everything lined up pretty well. I'm just having to tweek the tweeters and has the idea of running them in series to half the power and heared sometimes running tweets at 8ohms from 4 could make them sound better but i have no idea if that makes sense. I'll upload a picture of output screen on my dsp in a second.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

elijahscott said:


> So If my center speaker is rated at 30 watts I'd need a 30 watt resister? Any downside in running the tweeters in series?


Basically. The resistor would need to be rated for however much power you send it. If you run the tweeter in series (with each other) you'll lose stereo. There is different information recorded for the left side than the right side, you want to keep them desperate, wiring the tweeters in series with each other would give you 8 ohms, but it would be mono (no good). There has to be a better way of doing this than that though. Are you running these active, or passive? If active I don't understand why you can't take care of it with the gain, if passive check the crossover, most have attenuation switches.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

In the middle left it has the acr-3 as level control and the out goes up to 0db at max. I'm trying to have all the outputs equal the same thing so when I turn down the system and back up again I don't have one set of speakers/speaker lower or higher than the other...








http://www.audiocontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/gui-dm-810-output.png


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

gijoe said:


> Basically. The resistor would need to be rated for however much power you send it. If you run the tweeter in series (with each other) you'll lose stereo. There is different information recorded for the left side than the right side, you want to keep them desperate, wiring the tweeters in series with each other would give you 8 ohms, but it would be mono (no good). There has to be a better way of doing this than that though. Are you running these active, or passive? If active I don't understand why you can't take care of it with the gain, if passive check the crossover, most have attenuation switches.


Ahh didn't know that. So that's not an option then. Only option is for the rear fill that I have running mono then. I'd have to add resisters to the tweeters if I want to half the power. They are kicker ks tweeters I think rated at 75watts rms but I wouldn't imagine they would actually be making that kind of power. I can adjust the eq down -6db in the software too on the 30 band.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

elijahscott said:


> Ahh didn't know that. So that's not an option then. Only option is for the rear fill that I have running mono then. I'd have to add resisters to the tweeters if I want to half the power. They are kicker ks tweeters I think rated at 75watts rms but I wouldn't imagine they would actually be making that kind of power. I can adjust the eq down -6db in the software too on the 30 band.


But how are they wired? Are you running a passive crossover, or active crossover? If neither, or if you don't know what that means, we need to talk some more before we start wiring resistors to your tweeters.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

Alrojoca said:


> Wait! The op is using the iPad as a source, controlling volume with it? Not the ideal situation, using the headset jack to the DSP ( double DA conversion), and probably pre EQ signal.
> 
> Maybe the solution would be to make sure the iPad volume limiter and EQ is off.
> 
> ...


I'm using a SMSL X-USB XMOS USB to Coaxial Optical Converter
https://www.parts-express.com/smsl-...source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=pla
Using a camera connection kit for my iPad/iPhone to get digital out and running digital coax back to the dsp. Leaving the iPhone/iPad at one click down from max makes it so it doesn't clip the signal. Not sure why 100% makes it clip when the system is turned up pretty high but one click down stopps it completely so that's where I'm keeping it and adjust everything else after that.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

gijoe said:


> But how are they wired? Are you running a passive crossover, or active crossover? If neither, or if you don't know what that means, we need to talk some more before we start wiring resistors to your tweeters.


Everything is running active. I control crossover points on the dsp for everything. I also have the tweeters on a high pass at 3khz on the amp as a backup 12db slope and using 12db slope on the dsp for 24db at that point. Everything else(besides the sub) is running full range on the amps and crossovers are controlled in the dsp


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

gijoe said:


> But how are they wired? Are you running a passive crossover, or active crossover? If neither, or if you don't know what that means, we need to talk some more before we start wiring resistors to your tweeters.


One option could be to toss them back on the passive crossovers but I don't know how they work with only a tweeter one tweeter and nonmid range wired into them basically only giving me one wire out of the passive crossover. 
Can you wire just the tweeter into those boxes? I know they cut down power a bit.


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Why are you trying to get everything to zero in your dsp. One of the benifits of running full active is to be able to adjust each speakers volume separately. It's what it's made to do. You should be using output levels to balance your system once your amps are set correctly.


----------



## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

elijahscott said:


> Everything is running active. I control crossover points on the dsp for everything. I also have the tweeters on a high pass at 3khz on the amp as a backup 12db slope and using 12db slope on the dsp for 24db at that point. Everything else(besides the sub) is running full range on the amps and crossovers are controlled in the dsp


What DSP are you using? I'm not familiar with any DSP designed to run active that won't allow you to adjust the output of each channel.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

drop1 said:


> Why are you trying to get everything to zero in your dsp. One of the benifits of running full active is to be able to adjust each speakers volume separately. It's what it's made to do. You should be using output levels to balance your system once your amps are set correctly.


Because I'm running a digital signal back to the dsp and I don't want to adjust volume on the digital source(iPad or iPhone) as I heard it lowers bit rate and you should adjust volume at the dsp level which I'm trying to do. I explained this all. If they aren't adjusted equally when I start to lose volume past the point at say the tweeters hit maximum lowered volume but the rest of the system has a good 4-5db to go when I start cranking volume back up again the tweeters will be off from what they where originally. 
The volume knob spins indefinitely so it will keep going till each output is all the way down. Problem is when you go back up each will raise the same amount....
It would of been nicer for the manufacturer to not have a system control knob that doesn't have an start and end point so you don't know where you are at. Maybe an update will make things better but in the meantime this is what I have to work with.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

gijoe said:


> What DSP are you using? I'm not familiar with any DSP designed to run active that won't allow you to adjust the output of each channel.


Audiocontrol DM-810. It does allow you to adjust each input and output of each level. Taking in a digital signal the input side doesn't do anything. Taking speaker level inputs it does.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

This is inside the dsp. I have the tweeters set at 5v out and the center channel at 5v. The amp I have the tweeters on is rated at 125rms at 4ohm and the gain is all the way down. I'm having to eq the tweeters down a bit if I want to get everything to match better. Everything else is pretty good as of now. http://www.audiocontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/DM810_JUMPERLOCATOINS-1280x763.jpg


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

This is getting a bit out of hand...

Can the DSP lower the tweeters output or not?
Or
Can the DSP raise the gain on the other outputs?

You claim that you want the DSP balanced, but you want the sound balanced and the DSP has controls to balance the outputs.
It is like wanting the time delays set to zero in the DSP, and figuring how many miles of wire to add to get the delays right so the DSP can have all zeros.



elijahscott said:


> This is inside the dsp. I have the tweeters set at 5v out and the center channel at 5v.
> ...


Can you set the tweeter output to 1v? And NOT 5v?




gijoe said:


> A resistor adds resistance (saying "ohms resistance" is the same as saying inches distance, technically it makes sense, but you would never save "I want to lower my car 2 inches distance."
> ...


Well we do sometimes see pounds-force. So that would be more like Newtons.

I recall seeing the complex impedance being refer to as one component, and the real part as resistance component.

If some says They want the car's ride stiffer, then I think stiffer springs would be the complex part, and stiff shocks would be the resistance part. But in a complex system either approach increases the dynamic stiffness.


----------



## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

gijoe said:


> A resistor adds resistance (saying "ohms resistance" is the same as saying inches distance, technically it makes sense, but you would never save "I want to lower my car 2 inches distance." An ohm is the unit of measurement for resistance). Adding a resistor in series will do exactly that, add the value of resistance to the existing resistance. Adding a 4 ohm resistor in series with a 4 ohm tweeter will present the amp with an 8 ohm load, halving the power to the tweeter. Keep in mind, the resistor needs to be rated for the power, so those little 1/4 watt resistors aren't going to cut it.


Yes. What we'd do, back in the day, 1980'ish, if adding tweeters to dash and they were too loud. Along with a bass block. Cheap but effective, $1.00 part at Radio Shack. I just remembering that the guy that taught me, was a TV & Radio repair shop, also telling me that it would change the crossver point slightly. If I remember right, in your example, would lower, slightly, the crossover point.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

Holmz said:


> This is getting a bit out of hand...
> 
> Can the DSP lower the tweeters output or not?
> Or
> ...


No the internal jumpers only have 5v or 10v outs. I have the midranges set to 10v and tweeters and center channel on 5v.

Im adjusting the amps to have the dsp be around similar outputs so I can use SYSTEM volume on the dsp. If I can't have them around each other on the dsp then the volume knob is pointless for my digital sources and I might as well just use the volume knob on my iPhone/ipad that I'm using as my headunit.
I can write what I said again but I'm not sure I'm getting my point across correctly. 
The volume knob for this dsp is continuous... If I set each output to be controlled for volume level then they need to be around each other or when I go past all the way down on volume one of the lower gained outputs will be much louder when I start turning the system back up again. 
So I'm trying to adjust everything on the amps for each speaker set and have the dsp output be very close to 0db output so I don't get one set of speakers louder or quieter when I am changing volume from low to high. Its hard to explain without seeing in person....


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

I got it.

1) So the tweeter is all the way down in DSP and at the amp(s) gain(?).

2) Can you turn up the gain for the other amp(s) or are they maxed out at the DSP and at the AMP(s)?

If the above two things are met, then you either need to reduce the tweeters input to the amps using some version of a voltage divider, or a version of a voltage divider at the speaker.

Even if the other amps were not maxed the best option still may be a voltage divider for the tweeters.
Personally I would be trying it as a 10dB reduction on the amp input side so the amp to tweeter remains as is, and then turn up the amp gain if 10dB was a bit too much.

You will need 2 resisters for each channel. And about an hours worth of work,
The resistors depend on the input impedance to the amp and output impedance for the DSP.
I would suggest 5k inline between the DSP and the amp, and after than use 500 ohms across the signal and ground. The a female RCA on the side from DSP cable, and a male RCA to go into the amp. Or visa versa on the RCAs and put it at the output of the DSP... Whichever is easier to access.
The good part about that is it is easy to implement, easy to remove a change, and cheap in cost and time.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

Holmz said:


> I got it.
> 
> So the tweeter is all the way down in DSP and at the amp(s) gain(?).
> 
> ...


the tweeter is almost to where the others are on the output on the dsp. 
0db on that picture I posted is the max output for each channel(input isn't adjustable since its a digital input and this doesn't change anything).
I think I might just lower the volume on the iphone/ipad to two clicks down from 100% as the max volume clips way too easily and one down doesn't. If I have it at two clicks down I don't think I would loose much bit depth/rate if I have it at 2 clicks under and I can accomplish what I'm trying to do with having the dsp knob as the system volume control. 
I think it would be better this way and give me more headroom and it shouldn't hurt audio rates digital too much lowered so slightly.


----------



## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

elijahscott said:


> No the internal jumpers only have 5v or 10v outs. I have the midranges set to 10v and tweeters and center channel on 5v.
> 
> Im adjusting the amps to have the dsp be around similar outputs so I can use SYSTEM volume on the dsp. If I can't have them around each other on the dsp then the volume knob is pointless for my digital sources and I might as well just use the volume knob on my iPhone/ipad that I'm using as my headunit.
> I can write what I said again but I'm not sure I'm getting my point across correctly.
> ...


___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



So to clarify, your using _*Audio Control DM-8*_.
- iPhone/Ipad as source
- Option Port / USB for digital input
- RCA's output to amps
- Using optional _*ACR-3*_ remote for preset recall and level control

- Along with RCA's inputs from head unit 






-


----------



## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

Turn the volume on the iPad down to where the tweeters need to be and raise the gain on the rest of the system using either the DSP or the controls on the other amps. Bit rate/depth will not change. Alternatively use a PAC LC-1 or other signal attenuator between the DSP and the amp on the tweeter signal.

Do not use resistor(s) to lower the high voltage side of the signal.

Do not over complicate things.

If Holmz has anything else to add listen to him.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

only 1 thing... Harrison labs makes theses at 12dB.

Fmod Style Fixed Value Inline Attenuators

For that price why even fart around? just buy them and try it...


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Since you got midrange, I assume you are building a 3-way front system.
If yes, you can always cross your tweeters higher, say 8000Hz or 10000Hz.
I will not power a tweeter with an amp with power of > 50W. If changing the amp is not an option, can use the DSP to reduce the output, but then it may not be a good idea sometimes.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

DPGstereo said:


> ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, mostly iPhone 
Not the option port that's for Bluetooth that hasn't been released yet. 
There are two digital inputs on the unit. Optical and coax. 
RCA's out to amps yes. 

Stock headunit I have ran in through high level inputs off the stock amp. I like the way the digital sounds so much I don't care to use the stock headunit anymore. It has a high noise floor and the bass never seemed right and. Random voltages it seemed with it. It had bass rolloff I could never get right with the acccubass. With the digital everything is smooth and crisp. Way better then stock headunit. 
I got it all figured out last night. I have the phone set to two clicks down from full volume and every output is set the same level I just had to do lots of adjusting on the amps and some eq work. Now I can use the volume from the dsp and not worry about one or more speaker set being off if I continuous adjust volume.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

kyheng said:


> Since you got midrange, I assume you are building a 3-way front system.
> If yes, you can always cross your tweeters higher, say 8000Hz or 10000Hz.
> I will not power a tweeter with an amp with power of > 50W. If changing the amp is not an option, can use the DSP to reduce the output, but then it may not be a good idea sometimes.


No I wish I was doing 3 way but my car isn't set up for it(Audi A4). I have 6.75" components in the front with a dayton 3" center channel I replaced the stock one with and didn't like using till I got the dsp. 
In the rears I had components but disabled the rear tweeters as it through things off basically being in my ear. I have them time delayed in the back as well as most everything else so it blends better. 2 four channel amps and a sub amp. My smaller 4 channel amp is rated at 50x4 4ohm and larger is 125x4 4ohm. 
The center and rear fill are on the smaller amp


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

SPLEclipse said:


> Turn the volume on the iPad down to where the tweeters need to be and raise the gain on the rest of the system using either the DSP or the controls on the other amps. Bit rate/depth will not change. Alternatively use a PAC LC-1 or other signal attenuator between the DSP and the amp on the tweeter signal.
> 
> Do not use resistor(s) to lower the high voltage side of the signal.
> 
> ...


I've been reading how bit rate/depths changes with volume from the main source so you should not adjust it on the original source but on the dsp or dac.


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

elijahscott said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > Why are you trying to get everything to zero in your dsp. One of the benifits of running full active is to be able to adjust each speakers volume separately. It's what it's made to do. You should be using output levels to balance your system once your amps are set correctly.
> ...


Youre trying to make your system perfectly linear throughout its volume range. Not gonna happen. This has more to do with speaker sensitivity than anything. Tune for the volume you listen at.


----------



## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

elijahscott said:


> I've been reading how bit rate/depths changes with volume from the main source so you should not adjust it on the original source but on the dsp or dac.


Technically you loose dynamic range, and there's noise floor issues, but in reality you will never ever hear those effects. I doubt they would even be measurable without some serious measurement gear and only under specific conditions. I can't prove that, but I can tell you my experience from many years running digital in my car (and more in my home).


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Wait, what dsp zero outs your individual volume setting when you turn it all the way down. If it really does that you need to throw it away.


----------



## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

I feel like you have way over complicated the process. 
You should have all your output voltages the same, then set the levels of each speaker one by one. Your master volume control should not in ANY WAY change these settings.


----------



## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

Sounds like you're using _tweeters_ and a _mid/woofers_, powered by a _4-channel amp_, with amp having power rating _125 x 4_. 
Using this _4 channel amp_ to power these _4 speakers_, only?
Running _active_, controlled by _DSP_. Using _DSP volume control_ to control overall volume.
Are you're having an issue due to *efficiency* of _tweeter_ being different from _mid/woofer_?
Volume output differs between _tweeter_ and _mid/woofer _as you go from low volume to high volume?

Example; you can blend _tweeter_ and _mid/woofer_ to sound good at one volume level. But if you increase or decrease volume, this blend will change?

If yes, you need speaker with fairly close efficiency rating.

Or if speakers are a _component set_ that came with crossovers, and crossover allow you to_ bi-amp_? May want to try that. Then, on those speakers, use _DSP_ to control EQ, TA and level only.






-


----------



## Swaglife81 (Oct 15, 2016)

drop1 said:


> I feel like you have way over complicated the process.
> You should have all your output voltages the same, then set the levels of each speaker one by one. Your master volume control should not in ANY WAY change these settings.


I agree. With the OP refusing to adjust volume at the source to anything other than 1 click from max is a little stubborn. The iPad if it loses any bitrate by lowering volume, it would be like .05% and couldn't be heard. Most of the quality coming out is in the iTunes settings app anyway. With a dsp OP has the tools he needs for proper volume. There has been 20 respond with options because it shouldn't be a problem but he doesn't like any of the answers. Nothing against OP but he's either not listening or has been reading bad info. Alot of misinformation on the internet.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

SPLEclipse said:


> Technically you loose dynamic range, and there's noise floor issues, but in reality you will never ever hear those effects. I doubt they would even be measurable without some serious measurement gear and only under specific conditions. I can't prove that, but I can tell you my experience from many years running digital in my car (and more in my home).


thanks for the response. Im not too concerned with noise floor running digital its not like my stock headunit at all that thing had noise with the stock amp and just swapping the speakers out. Id like to keep dynamic range as high as possible if possible thats why I wanted to adjust volume at the dsp not the iPhone.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

drop1 said:


> Youre trying to make your system perfectly linear throughout its volume range. Not gonna happen. This has more to do with speaker sensitivity than anything. Tune for the volume you listen at.


I do tune for max volume I listen at doesn't mean I listen to music at that consistent volume every time in in the car



drop1 said:


> I feel like you have way over complicated the process.
> You should have all your output voltages the same, then set the levels of each speaker one by one. Your master volume control should not in ANY WAY change these settings.


 Thats exactly what I have done. I just couldn't do it with having 100% signal from the phone-dac-dsp amps. I couldn't do it with one click down on the phone but 2 clicks down I have them all leveled the same on the output side of the dsp so when I adjust volume as a whole from the dsp with the knob everything is going down and up matched. 




drop1 said:


> Wait, what dsp zero outs your individual volume setting when you turn it all the way down. If it really does that you need to throw it away.


say you have your tweeters at -6db and your mids at 0db. I won't go into the whole setup we will stick with two speakers. Look at this picture of the output view of my dsp where it shows the levels and you can select if you want the knob to control the level for each speaker(so if you want to use volume for each speaker on the system you need them to be equal or you run into issues).

http://www.audiocontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/gui-dm-810-output.png

So say when your playing music and you want to turn it way down you are going from -6db on your tweeters and 0db(max) on your mids.
Once you get to the lowest point the tweeters will hit this number first(its still not 100% silent either so you don't know when your at the lowest point).
The knob has a continuously spinning knob too. 
So you keep turning it down till now the mids are all the way the system can go.
When you start going back up in volume on the knob the mids and tweeters are increasing at the same db level so your tweeters will see clipping if you go all the way up to where it was set at. 
Thats why if I wanted to use my system knob as a volume control I wanted to have them be at the same output level on the dsp or id run into issues. Not sure how else to explain it. 



Swaglife81 said:


> I agree. With the OP refusing to adjust volume at the source to anything other than 1 click from max is a little stubborn. The iPad if it loses any bitrate by lowering volume, it would be like .05% and couldn't be heard. Most of the quality coming out is in the iTunes settings app anyway. With a dsp OP has the tools he needs for proper volume. There has been 20 respond with options because it shouldn't be a problem but he doesn't like any of the answers. Nothing against OP but he's either not listening or has been reading bad info. Alot of misinformation on the internet.


Im not refusing anything I'm just trying to maximize what I'm putting into the system. Saying I should lower the quality of the signal from the phone because I can't hear it isn't how I like to do things. IF I can keep 100% of the signal I'm going to try to accomplish it I don't want it half assed and use the phones volume that lowers bit rate and dynamic range. 
Also, controlling volume from the phone jumps too much and it does not sound great under half way. With using the system volume I have a lot more smaller volume changes which I like more. 
Have you tried not running a headunit and using your phone as the source?


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

an interesting read
BitPerfect: Digital vs Analog Volume Control

and 
SoundStage! Ultra | SoundStageUltra.com (UltraAudio.com) | What’s Wrong with Digital Volume Controls?

Ive already lowered the phones volume from max 100% down two clicks to whatever that leaves me id like to keep the quality as high as can thats why I wanted to not use the volume control further on the phone/ipad but on the dsp out to the amps. I'm ok with the small decrease from max down to where it is as when I lower it now on the dsp side it sounds good at lower volumes where it wasn't the greatest just cranking down phone volume.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

I thought your problem was too much tweeter?

How does turning the volume down help or hurt having too much tweeter?

Secondly the theory of the SNR with the iPad turned down is fine-n-dandy, but have YOU been able to discern it with your ears? Or have you measured it?
That iPad volume seems like a separate topic from the highs being too much, how is that related to your main problem?


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

Holmz said:


> I thought your problem was too much tweeter?
> 
> How does turning the volume down help or hurt having too much tweeter?
> 
> ...


if I had my phone on max volume I had to turn down the ouput of the tweeter/center channel so I couldnt control system volume the way I wanted with the dsp. I wanted them to be even on the output side and I couldn't figure out how to get them to that point with 100% signal from the iPad/iphone. one click down still had the problem of too much power and amp level all the way down on the tweeter side. two clicks down on the phone and I have everything even now and I can adjust volume at the dsp without worrying if I turn it down too much and keep spinning the knob then go back up the volume the tweeters and center will be well over what they where originally. 
I can't see what levels they are at like I can with my computer tuning these levels so I have to go by what I'm hearing. I have no way of telling if I'm giving them too much power when I don't have a screen showing me what It is for the majority of my driving.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Excuse me for being slow to understand.
Is this center channel and tweeter from the iPad/iPhone handled in the DSP?
or is it running through some separate amp with a separate volume control?

And do CDs or the radio have problems with too much tweeter?
or is it just the iPhone/iPad?

or...

If the iPhone/iPad was clipping at high volume, that would create harmonics, as a consequence of the frequency-space representation of a time-domain square wave.
This implies that there is too much signal voltage either out of the iPhone/iPad, or that there needs to be attenuation of the signal before any ADC in the DSP, or that the DSP input gain is too high for the iPhone/iPad signal.

If turning the iPhone's output down solves the problem, then it seems like we have found a solution to the problem.
The input gain into the DSP could be lowered which would ensure that even at the max output that the DSP would not be clipping, which would be another solution that is conceptually closely related to the first solution.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

Holmz said:


> Excuse me for being slow to understand.
> Is this center channel and tweeter from the iPad/iPhone handled in the DSP?
> or is it running through some separate amp with a separate volume control?
> 
> ...


All of the speakers for the system are ran through the dsp then out to each amp then to each speaker. 
The only connection from the phone to the dsp is a coax digital connection. 

I have the factory head unit on the 4th setting(I can select 1-4) on the system knob as I barely use it(mainly just for radio I don't use cd's or the sd card slot). But I have those at different inputs and outputs. So I'm not using system volume knob for factory head unit as I don't have to because I have the volume from the headunit and don't need a system volume control as I do with the phone. so this factory head unit aside it doesn't matter if the levels are different because I'm not using system volume to adjust everything like I am with the phone. 

That last topic I'm discussing with audio control right now as I don't know how the input side is involved because I don't notice any changes in volume adjusting the input side of on the dsp from the phone. 
Are you saying that it really is changing but I'm just not noticing it but it shows clipping on the signal?
I can try turning it down with the phone at 100% again and seeing if it does the same thing. I currently just have it set to 0db right in the middle. 
I thought it was weird when I first went digital as the input didn't seem to change volume/noise floor like it was when Im running off the head unit. I could drag the slider either to full input gain or all the way back and not notice any changes in sound.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

elijahscott said:


> ...
> I can try turning it down with the phone at 100% again and seeing if it does the same thing. I currently just have it set to 0db right in the middle.
> I thought it was weird when I first went digital as the input didn't seem to change volume/noise floor like it was when Im running off the head unit. I could drag the slider either to full input gain or all the way back and not notice any changes in sound.


Don't *****-foot around. Move the DSP gain to almost zero... -20 dB or -10 dB, and if the DSP only does it in % , then go to 1% or 5%.

Then after you have taken notes on that, then crank the DSP up to what ever the max is, and move the phone to near zero.

See what massive changes do, before you worry about what superfine tuning can do.

Ideally there would be some way to actually measure things rather than just by-the-ear tests.


----------



## DPGstereo (Jan 16, 2013)

Holmz said:


> Don't *****-foot around. Move the DSP gain to almost zero... -20 dB or -10 dB, and if the DSP only does it in % , then go to 1% or 5%.
> 
> Then after you have taken notes on that, then crank the DSP up to what ever the max is, and move the phone to near zero.
> 
> ...



Any way the _digital input_ on this DSP, by-passes or is after the Input Gain Controls?



-


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

Holmz said:


> Don't *****-foot around. Move the DSP gain to almost zero... -20 dB or -10 dB, and if the DSP only does it in % , then go to 1% or 5%.
> 
> Then after you have taken notes on that, then crank the DSP up to what ever the max is, and move the phone to near zero.
> 
> ...


Been playing with it today. Same thing. Input gain does absolutely nothing. Lowered it all the way down to -20db. Doesn't change a thing. If phone is at max volume it will show clipping on all outputs. 
One click down all output clipping lights are off besides sub is still flickering. 
Two clicks down and no lights are on anymore. 
I trying turning the the input gain on all after I showed clipping and it doesn't change anything. 
Could be the phone or the SMSL usnb xmos Digital converter I'm using to get the signal back to the dsp. 
I'll just continue to use my phone two to one click down from 100%. 
Why would a phone max output be showing clipping is all I'm confused about as well as the Input gain from it not doing anything on the dsp. 
Taking speaker level inputs from the stock system/amp the input gain works as it should so I know the dsp isn't bad. Unless digital inputs are different


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

elijahscott said:


> ...
> One click down all output clipping lights are off besides sub is still flickering.
> Two clicks down and no lights are on anymore.
> ...
> ...


Why not run the phone at least down 2 click down?

How does it sound with the iPhone 3-4 click up from minimum?
Can you hear any difference?

When running the phone at lower level, is the tweet channel still too bright? Or did that get cured?


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

elijahscott said:


> No I wish I was doing 3 way but my car isn't set up for it(Audi A4). I have 6.75" components in the front with a dayton 3" center channel I replaced the stock one with and didn't like using till I got the dsp.
> In the rears I had components but disabled the rear tweeters as it through things off basically being in my ear. I have them time delayed in the back as well as most everything else so it blends better. 2 four channel amps and a sub amp. My smaller 4 channel amp is rated at 50x4 4ohm and larger is 125x4 4ohm.
> The center and rear fill are on the smaller amp


Well, why not try to use the 50W amp for the tweeters and 125W for the rears?
For a 2-way front setup, I think it is overkill for the 125W amp to power the tweeters as they are doing most of the jobs.


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

Holmz said:


> Why not run the phone at least down 2 click down?
> 
> How does it sound with the iPhone 3-4 click up from minimum?
> Can you hear any difference?
> ...


It sounds really good where it's at. I'd like it one click down but sub output still is showing clipping on the dsp. It's good where it is. Could be a touch louder. It I'll play with some more eq to fix it.

3-4 up from minimum sounds pretty low. It doesn't really pick up volume till midway. Then it jumps up fast. Especially going from 2 clicks down to 1 click. I didn't like adjusting on the phone for the week I was doing it. Too big of jumps unless I used the slider


----------



## elijahscott (Jun 23, 2017)

kyheng said:


> Well, why not try to use the 50W amp for the tweeters and 125W for the rears?
> For a 2-way front setup, I think it is overkill for the 125W amp to power the tweeters as they are doing most of the jobs.


I did. I tried a month ago and had it for a week. Thought it didn't sound as good on that amp. Tried it again a few days ago and went back to the polk amp in a day. Rear fill and center channel are fine on the little 4 channel amp


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

elijahscott said:


> I did. I tried a month ago and had it for a week. Thought it didn't sound as good on that amp. Tried it again a few days ago and went back to the polk amp in a day. Rear fill and center channel are fine on the little 4 channel amp


Well, swapping amp with lesser power you need to adjust the gain again to make it sound "right" to you. If that's done, it means the sound signature of that amp does not suit your taste.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

elijahscott said:


> It sounds really good where it's at. I'd like it one click down but sub output still is showing clipping on the dsp.
> ...


I would have thought turning it down would decrease clipping?




elijahscott said:


> ...
> It's good where it is. Could be a touch louder. It I'll play with some more eq to fix it.
> ...


What happens when you turn the phone down a click or 2 and then turn the output side of the DSP up?
or the amp's gain up?


----------

