# Ultimate CarPC setup



## ashman5

Surface Pro tablet and 8ch USB DAC!

the DAC is pricey and there are cheaper options. this particular DAC is also well supported by J.River and the newer J.River Media Center has a loopback function that allows other programs (Centrafuse, RR,..etc) use J.River's audio engine.


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## Wy2quiet

You are giving me evil ideas, how dare you!!! Seriously though...now I want a Surface Pro Tablet specifically for this...hmmmm...I will have to wait to see the benchmarks.

EDIT: I just saw they are NOT including an HDMI, but rather a Displayport. That is terrible. You would need to run an external soundcard/DSP to get it to work at all with a Surface Pro.


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## MarkZ

I'll dig this as soon as I see console or audiomulch running on it. 

Where's the GPS btw?


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## lbp775

Wy2quiet said:


> You are giving me evil ideas, how dare you!!! Seriously though...now I want a Surface Pro Tablet specifically for this...hmmmm...I will have to wait to see the benchmarks.
> 
> EDIT: I just saw they are NOT including an HDMI, but rather a Displayport. That is terrible. You would need to run an external soundcard/DSP to get it to work at all with a Surface Pro.


Can't you just use a Mini Displayport to HDMI adapter?

Amazon.com: Mini DisplayPort to HDMI Adapter Cable, 6 feet: Electronics


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## req

first.

toslinlk\spdif OUT is what we want. who cares about analog when you go to carPC.

second, what kind of power supply are going to use in order to get clean audio out of this thing, and how are you going to switch it on properly? it looks like every time you unplug it, it turns off - and when you plug the power supply in you have to hit the power button before it boots up.

so, imo - fail across the board. 


give me a good tablet with SPDIF or TOSLINK built in, and a 7~10 inch screen - and thats all we need.


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## MarkZ

req said:


> give me a good tablet with SPDIF or TOSLINK built in, and a 7~10 inch screen - and thats all we need.


Speak for yourself bro. Makes no sense to install a computer only to have it output audio to ANOTHER computer to do the signal processing.


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## Ultimateherts

MarkZ said:


> Speak for yourself bro. Makes no sense to install a computer only to have it output audio to ANOTHER computer to do the signal processing.


Not only that it would make the cost rediculous!!!


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## Neil_J

That DAC is NICE, probably one of the best I've come across (it was mentioned in my carpc build thread back in October). It uses the ESS ES9018 Sabre, and absolutely incredible noise floor and jitter specs.


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## req

i expect a DAC in a tablet to be horrible, as well as a tablet not to be powerful to do the kind of DSP that we come to expect (time correction x6 channels, 1\3 octave parametric eq x6 channels, active bandpass crossovers x6 channels, ect)

so and external DAC in something like a Helix P-DSP (that i own) or an Arc PS8 (that i also own) would be super duper.

speak for yourself, i do not like analog if i can avoid until the amplifier and use a higher quality DAC in between.

but that is just me, and everyone who uses toslink\spdif for anything.


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## ashman5

req said:


> i expect a DAC in a tablet to be horrible, as well as a tablet not to be powerful to do the kind of DSP that we come to expect (time correction x6 channels, 1\3 octave parametric eq x6 channels, active bandpass crossovers x6 channels, ect)
> 
> so and external DAC in something like a Helix P-DSP (that i own) or an Arc PS8 (that i also own) would be super duper.
> 
> speak for yourself, i do not like analog if i can avoid until the amplifier and use a higher quality DAC in between.
> 
> but that is just me, and everyone who uses toslink\spdif for anything.


Yeah, you probably wouldn't want to use the internal sound, but an external USB DAC/Audio Card would be awesome combined with internal processing abilities of the tablet. Plus, it doesn't take much processing/cpu power to do audio stuff. My CarPC probably has less cpu power than a Surface Pro and it rarely hits 20% CPU utilization.


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## req

i dont know man, i have seen some guys using plugin based processing for all this stuff and it takes a good amount of cpu power to churn that stuff real time. on top of that - tablets and **** are getting closer to laptop\desktop based power - but they are not there yet. having the power to do the real time data crunching AND all the gui interface stuff at the same time while maintaing a soft-boot low power requirement with all the other bells and whistles is not something tablets are able to offer at a decent price point in my opinion. OR you could want a high quality internal DAC or digital output with a dedicated external processor and keep the tablet\laptop\carpc just to do the interface\gui\bells and whistles. i mean its always an exercise in tradeoffs unless you have the time and knowledge to build something 1-off custom. 

i currently have a car pc, so i know something about the subject. to my knowledge, there is not a single product that offers what we all want with enough power to pull it off without lag or other issues, and i honestly dont think tablets are there yet - specifically cpu power wise - not to mention all the software you guys want to use (plugin based) is not even supported for android\ios - so the only option is windows8. and a surfacePRO will set you back some serious cash if thats the way you want to go. personally i dont think it has the performance capabilities that i would require - not to mention it is a bit large for an in dash.



again, just my thoughts.


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## MarkZ

req said:


> i expect a DAC in a tablet to be horrible, as well as a tablet not to be powerful to do the kind of DSP that we come to expect (time correction x6 channels, 1\3 octave parametric eq x6 channels, active bandpass crossovers x6 channels, ect)
> 
> so and external DAC in something like a Helix P-DSP (that i own) or an Arc PS8 (that i also own) would be super duper.
> 
> speak for yourself, i do not like analog if i can avoid until the amplifier and use a higher quality DAC in between.
> 
> but that is just me, and everyone who uses toslink\spdif for anything.


Um... you need analog at some point. That's what hits your ears. Some of us actually prefer to do the signal processing in the first computer instead of buying a second one to do the signal processing. So, if your computer can do the signal processing, it should produce an analog output. That's the whole point.


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## ashman5

req said:


> to my knowledge, there is not a single product that offers what we all want with enough power to pull it off without lag or other issues


I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this statement, but in my case I use Centrafuse for the frontend graphics and I'm currently testing a combination of JRiver and Plogue Bidule for backend processing. JRiver does internal processing at 64bit and it's output to my soundcard at 32bit. I have individual VST/Plugins for crossover (linear phase), EQ (linear phase), time alignment, surround processing for 8 channels. I have a 4 year old AMD dual core with 2GB RAM and processing has never been an issue.

So, in that sense, it DOES take at least 3 paid software packages in my case.

I will say that I DO NOT use this CarPC for video/GPS/internet/etc. It's strictly an audio processor with Centrafuse as a graphical interface.

I do believe it's a little to soon to judge the capabilities of the Win8 tablets as a whole. I monitor the JRiver and DiyAudio forum for mentions of them and I'm just not seeing much interest.


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## Neil_J

req said:


> i dont know man, i have seen some guys using plugin based processing for all this stuff and it takes a good amount of cpu power to churn that stuff real time. on top of that - tablets and **** are getting closer to laptop\desktop based power - but they are not there yet. having the power to do the real time data crunching AND all the gui interface stuff at the same time while maintaing a soft-boot low power requirement with all the other bells and whistles is not something tablets are able to offer at a decent price point in my opinion. OR you could want a high quality internal DAC or digital output with a dedicated external processor and keep the tablet\laptop\carpc just to do the interface\gui\bells and whistles. i mean its always an exercise in tradeoffs unless you have the time and knowledge to build something 1-off custom.
> 
> i currently have a car pc, so i know something about the subject. to my knowledge, there is not a single product that offers what we all want with enough power to pull it off without lag or other issues, and i honestly dont think tablets are there yet - specifically cpu power wise - not to mention all the software you guys want to use (plugin based) is not even supported for android\ios - so the only option is windows8. and a surfacePRO will set you back some serious cash if thats the way you want to go. personally i dont think it has the performance capabilities that i would require - not to mention it is a bit large for an in dash.
> 
> 
> 
> again, just my thoughts.


I wholeheartedly agree with req here. Tablets aren't going to cut the mustard when it comes to any real audio processing. Neither is a Raspberry Pi or any other ARM device. You might be able to do a select few IIR filters and delay lines on a few channels, but that's hardly an "ultimate SQ" setup -- believe me.


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## MarkZ

> i currently have a car pc, so i know something about the subject. to my knowledge, there is not a single product that offers what we all want with enough power to pull it off without lag or other issues


You can do it with a 7 year old computer.  Mine is a small form factor Optiplex 745... 7 channels of VST processing... delay/phase/crossover/EQ/channel mixing... CPU utilization is around 20-30% IIRC. 

I think tablets are close. I'm more concerned about whether the OS supports the hardware and software required to pull it off. I don't think CPU power is the major issue here.

And if you can find VST plugins that unload the processing to the GPU... which some of them claim to be able to do... then the sky's the limit.


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## ashman5

Neil_J said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with req here. Tablets aren't going to cut the mustard when it comes to any real audio processing. Neither is a Raspberry Pi or any other ARM device. You might be able to do a select few IIR filters and delay lines on a few channels, but that's hardly an "ultimate SQ" setup -- believe me.



Don't really know why I should "believe you" when I'm seeing it done every time I get in my car. And the discussion is not about ARM or Raspberry Pi.

There are people doing multiple channels of full convolution through JRiver, and that should be the most taxing of processing.

The Surface Pro tablets have Intel Core i5 processors. They should be powerful to do most any processing, but again, I'm not seeing anyone post any experiences.


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## Hdale85

Yeah the Surface Pro's are pretty powerful and when the new Intel i5/i7 4th gens come out they will be super low power but full featured and fast CPU's which will make them even better, these are not the same as other tablets running ARM they run a full copy of Windows 8 with a few gigs of DDR3 and a laptop grade Core i5 or i7. 

With that being said I think the latest ARM processors are getting up there in speed as well, the Cortex A15 quad core could probably handle quite a bit of processing and still be smooth.


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## Neil_J

Yea I stand corrected about the core i5, I thought I saw "RT" in there somewhere earlier. Still a lot of unanswered questions about software compatibility, integration issues (e.g. power, startup, shutdown), and the fact that the overwhelming majority of people hate Windows 8.


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## Hdale85

People hate Windows 8 because they don't understand it, it's incredibly fast and smooth and amazingly perfect for a tablet. I'm sure if the start up shutdown stuff has been worked out with other tablets it can be with this one as well. Software compatibility should be the same as any other Windows 8 PC.


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## Neil_J

I'll try not to pull this off-topic too much, but I'll say I've been creating user interfaces for fifteen years now in my software development career. Windows 8 has clearly broken many important human interface guidelines which has caused a lot of frustration and lost priductivity in the first few weeks of ownership (I can provide half a dozen concrete examples if you'd like). Sure people can learn to use a bad interface with time, but why should they have to?

Back to the integration stuff. These are questions that I don't have the answer to currently, so I'm genuinely curious as to the answer. 
Can you put the tablet into and out of standby programmatically, i.e. via the +12V remote turnon lead in the car? (via some external CarPC shutdown controller that may IR may not currently exist?)
Does the USB power stay on when the tablet is in standby?
Do the USB devices (E.g. The DAC), in practice, start and stop gracefully when going into and coming out of standby?
What temperature is the tablet rated for? Will it work in extreme hot and cold environments? The iPad won't, I'd be curious how the Surface stacks up to it.
The monitor and touchscreen interface are built in, +1 there. 
No CD drive (I assume), normally not a bad thing but would make it harder to compete in IASCA and MECA. Not a bad thing in my book but worth mentioning.


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## req

thank you neil.


i said there is not a stand alone package that will do what we want, now. this is not a custom built carPC with software packages that you need to purchase. i have one of these too. i mean a product that somone sells that you put into a car that is ready to go.

i said the surface pro might be able to, but its a lot more money than my custom built car pc was, and integrating it into a car will not be easy due to its form factor (size) and power (needs a dock).

to my knowledge, there is no way to soft boot any tablet with an external trigger - and as neil said, do the usb devices play nice with windows8 surface pro in these soft boot situations? and how do you turn on\off the DAC as well?

are there any VST\plugin sets that are tablet GUI friendly? i dont think that they would work well with most peoples fingers - not the ones that i have used at least.

so custom GUI VST plugin software (for windows8 most likely), a tablet (windows 8 most likely) that has the power to run the processing real time AND play music, do web, gps, bluetooth ect, either use the internal DAC or an external - if external it will need soft turn on of some kind to prevent pops\noise, and then fit this tablet on the dash of most cars - so more likely a 7~9" form factor - with audio, power, and usb on ONE side for docking purposes.




its a tall order right now IMO.


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## Neil_J

My custom 10-channel DAC is USB, and it's already plagued me with problems. My Mac Mini keeps USB power applied during shutdown (as many modern PCs and laptops do, to wakeup after a key press or mouse movement). I had to unsolder a diode from the USBStreamer board and solder up a cable to a 2mm connector to apply external power. If it ever gets unplugged and plugged back in, I need to go into Audio Midi Setup and reconfigure the sample rate from 192 kHz to 44.1 so that the aggregate audio device doesn't have a sample-rate mismatch (still trying to automate this), otherwise Plogue Bidule freaks out and throws a silent error. Also if unplugged and re-plugged, there's a chance that the OS will select something weird as the default audio source. These are unique problems to my installation, but I'm trying to make the point that any CarPC install might run into these problems.


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## ashman5

1000% agree. CarPC installs are not always straight forward. I started with a full system, GPS, Voice Activation, Internet, Video. I got tired of chasing problems. I removed all the non-audio stuff and now just have a motherboard and pci-e 8 channel sound card. I use a normal keyboard and mouse when tuning and setting up VSTs, but once things are pretty good I use my steering wheel controls and touch screen. Much simpler. It'll even sleep


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## Neil_J

ashman5 said:


> 1000% agree. CarPC installs are not always straight forward. I started with a full system, GPS, Voice Activation, Internet, Video. I got tired of chasing problems. I removed all the non-audio stuff and now just have a motherboard and pci-e 8 channel sound card. I use a normal keyboard and mouse when tuning and setting up VSTs, but once things are pretty good I use my steering wheel controls and touch screen. Much simpler. It'll even sleep


What did you use for steering wheel controls?


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## Hdale85

....It's a PC? How do you do all the tuning and stuff on any other CarPC build? You can use all that same stuff on the Surface Pro......Or at least there isn't any reason you can't. If there is a scheduler app like on Android you could set the dock connector to be on the ignition and when the tablet gets power (plugged in) it would come out of sleep mode. Generally these tablets don't use much power in standby or idle state so it usually isn't a problem. Steering wheel controls and what not I've seen an Arduino used. 

I'm not sure on all the other USB things, but I imagine it should play along just like any other full fledged carPC would as it is a PC with a built in screen.


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## ashman5

Neil_J said:


> What did you use for steering wheel controls?


JoyCon Ex

Joycon EX Steering Wheel Control PC Interface


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## MarkZ

req said:


> are there any VST\plugin sets that are tablet GUI friendly? i dont think that they would work well with most peoples fingers - not the ones that i have used at least.


FWIW, all the newer Voxengo plugins have a "tablet mode" and allow you to resize the GUI. They're really excellent plugins IMO, but some of the better ones cost cash money.


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## Neil_J

MarkZ said:


> FWIW, all the newer Voxengo plugins have a "tablet mode" and allow you to resize the GUI.


That's pretty slick. Thanks for the heads up.


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## bbfoto

Yep, JoyCon FTW. Unfortunately, you can't program it in Mac OS or Linux, but once you program it using Windows, it will work with OSX and Linux.

http://rcjoyeng.cafe24.com/base_3//menu_10.php?com_board_basic=read_form&menu=10&com_board_idx=10

Guys, FYI you can also easily bypass the Windows 8 Metro UI (tiled interface) when you boot so you go straight into the legacy UI that is basically identical to Windows 7 (with a few tweaks). You can also instantly switch back & forth between the UI's as you need/want to...say for when you want to tune using the legacy UI and then switch to the Metro/tiled UI for your media playback interface. There's plenty of videos on YT on how to do it..apply a very simple script...


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## Neil_J

bbfoto said:


> Yep, JoyCon FTW. Unfortunately, it no worky in Linux.


Wouldn't work with my CAN bus steering wheel controls anyway 

As far as the Windows 8 Metro stuff is concerned:


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## bbfoto

^Awesome vid, LOL! I had some major reservations about the Lion update, too, but nothing compared to the Windows 7 to 8 debacle, LOL.

Yeah, JoyCon's NFTW with CAN bus, sorry mang.


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## Neil_J

I went with an Arduino and ASWC and I've had great luck so far. Not done writing the Arduino code to interpret the ASWC's pulses, but it's 100% doable once I get around to it.


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