# REW first encounter



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

So I just finished a day with REW...

Took many test measurements and then devised a plan..

Worked on each individual driver and began to set up each driver as if it was the only one in the vehicle to see how each performs in its given position.

Then began to work on an average of each of those drivers to come up with a common theme.

Once I got the passenger side done i began to add each driver from that side back into the equation. 

To my surprise, all showed very accurate responses.
Level match was good, crossover points looked very close.
I saw a few inconsistencies around the crossover points but very minimal.
I decided to tune at the crossover points to see what this would yield.
Once again very easy to see things happen using REW and the mini DSP mic.









Smoothed out the crossover points and continued with the process.

In any case, still new to REW but believe it is a great tool.
Any thoughts good or bad once looking at the plots, please don't hesitate to share.

More to follow once I sew both sides together.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Plot holder...

Second plot....


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Plot holder...

Third plot...


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

I started using REW a few weeks ago. I see that your left side is showing much more in the 200-1000 range, mine does as well. If I tune for a match in that range...it sounds like **** and is far too loud on the right side.

I tune to my own housecurve then I tune by ear for balance and tonality.

I'll have to say, REW really opened up a new world, and allowed me to really get my SQ (with a touch of loud but clean basshead) setup shining. I am at a new tune, so I need to measure this evening and see what it shows, I'll post back here if you are interested in comparing techniques/notes/etc.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

All plots are at 1/3 smoothing.

6 measurements were taken for every average.

System includes:
Kenwood dnx9980 had
Alpine pxa-h800
Rux-c800
Jl audio 600/4 x2
Jl audio 1200/1
Dynaudio esotec 362
Jl audio 13" slim subs x2 sealed

No sub was introduced into the plots
No time correction has been used as of yet
No EQ what so ever has been applied.
No rear fill.
Sealed with RamMat and Ensolite

Mid bass is in factory door positions
Mid range are in pods half way between mid bass and 
Tweet are in sail panels.

Mid bass cross at 71/24 @ 900/12
Mid range cross at 900/12 @ 4k/12
Tweet cross at 4k/ 12

Passenger midrange wired out of phase.
-6 db 2.0 minute pink noise track used.
Tuned crossovers using dual frequency tracks centered 1oct above and below crossover points. 

I will post all tracks used this weekend...


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## edouble101 (Dec 9, 2010)

Do you like your sub bass level lower than the midbass?

Your next step is to time align using REW. Worked wonders on my soundstage.


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## edouble101 (Dec 9, 2010)

I just read "no sub"


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Yes by all means,

My thought exactly...

As for my hot spots...

Just going to smooth them out a bit using PEQ
Tuning to my own house curve as well.

I also decided to visit the guys over at 
Home Theater Shack to see how they approach their high end systems.
I ran into this which proved to she'd some light on the house curve mystery...

House curve: What it is, why you need it, how to do it! - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

I feel it's a great read and will help anyone who cares to investigate...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Yes I'm sorry,

No sub introduced as of yet...

She plays, but no need to muddy the water...

My goal is to wiggle it in and tune that in a week or two...

I plan to use a new technique I read about 
Tuning 100hz and 30 hz to the same Perceived volume.

I agree with the person that wrote the article,
Measured and Perceived are most certainly 2 different things.

When I started I checked my system with REW, based on what I had done 
With my RTA... Not even in the ball park....

It was very flat and no life....

I started over and used only REW, mini dsp mic, Pink noise and I think I'm headed in a good direction... 

Time will tell, but I plan to post every couple days what I'm Encountering...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

So things are moving along.

The problem I may be having is,

What is everyone's opinion of a good looking curve?

Hate to sound dumb, but I searched for a good target curve and no post said this is what a curve should like if you do everything right.

Can anyone help??

Here are my curves as they stand today with 
1/3 smoothing after PEQ applied...
Averages of left
Averages of right
And total average...
6 measurements each...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I think the tilt is way too steep, your last plot shows a 40dB difference between 20Hz-10kHz, makes me believe that it sounds kinda dull and bass heavy but it's hard to comment on how it will sound without actually listen to the system... Try increasing everything from ~1,6-2,5kHz and up by 10dB or so.

How do you measure? 1/3oct smoothing is not very informative below ~1kHz, use 1/12oct at least. Too much difference between the channels 200-600Hz, use correlated pink noise to center each frequency in that range. It should be identical, you may to readjust T/A after you're done. My channels doesn't differ more than 1dB in this range with a 1/3oct smoothing.


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## edouble101 (Dec 9, 2010)

I like a flatter curve from 500hz to 20khz (versus your descending curve). Your midrange and tweeter look like they could be level matched higher.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Guys,

I appreciate the feedback...

I can explain how I level matched and maybe I went wrong at that step..
Please correct me if I used the wrong method...

1. I set gains per voltage requirements via jl audio instructions.
2. I used the passenger 8" mid bass as reference.
3. Set that driver to play smooth at 90 db.
4. Continued to introduce each driver to blend with the first.
5. Passenger side level matched.
6. Level match pass mid bass to driver mid bass
7. Level match driver side to blend with driver mid bass.
8. Began using REW
9. Did some preliminary T/C
10. Introduced Sub today...

Could I do something better? Different?
I am very new to the fine tuning nuances
But you don't know what you don't know...

Thank you for all the help....


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> I think the tilt is way too steep, your last plot shows a 40dB difference between 20Hz-10kHz, makes me believe that it sounds kinda dull and bass heavy but it's hard to comment on how it will sound without actually listen to the system... Try increasing everything from ~1,6-2,5kHz and up by 10dB or so.
> 
> How do you measure? 1/3oct smoothing is not very informative below ~1kHz, use 1/12oct at least. Too much difference between the channels 200-600Hz, use correlated pink noise to center each frequency in that range. It should be identical, you may to readjust T/A after you're done. My channels doesn't differ more than 1dB in this range with a 1/3oct smoothing.


Thank you for the response, 
I do agree... The system currently sounds very warm...
Images fairly well... But I do agree... Does lack a bit of brightness and presence.
I am measuring with a factory calibrated mini dsp mic.
No smoothing...
Take 3 measurements and average the 3 and smooth to 1/3 oct.

Not sure what you mean by " Correlated pink noise"?

It's not that I'm not trying... I watched Erin's YouTube video multiple times and thought I was headed in the right direction...

Problem is I'm not sure of where I'm supposed to end up.

The result is what I'm looking for, but can't quite figure out what the result should be.

I really want to accomplish this on my own, with guidance.. As opposed to someone doing it for me... The challenge of an active 3 way system was very appealing and I just can't do passive anymore...

The possibilities are endless going active and I guess that's what sucked me in...

Any and all help in understanding what the end result should look like or sound like is greatly appreciated....

Thank you,


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

I think you are on the right track, but there's 2 things to point out:

1) Scale your graph so you don't have 30+db blank areas on the top and bottom. You'll be able to see more detail that way.

2) You're getting a lot of background noise that's artificially boosting the lows. I had the same problem on my netbook with a capsule mic and no preamp. That 40dB slope Han is referring to isn't "real". The only solution is to either use a soundcard that can accept a smaller signal, build (or buy) a simple preamp, or boost the system volume up to overcome the background enough to get a usable reading. Turn the volume up until you get a solid 70+dB reading on the low end (warning: this is going to be LOUD if you are in the car).


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> I am measuring with a factory calibrated mini dsp mic.
> No smoothing...
> Take 3 measurements and average the 3 and smooth to 1/3 oct.
> 
> ...


Here's a zoomed in response on my midrange drivers. See how close they are to each other in the 200-600Hz area? The diversity above 1,5kHz is intentional. (Each line is 2dB+/-)



Correlated pink noise = Mono pink noise, can be generated with Audacity for example.

Use averaging, but don't smooth to 1/3, there's no details in the lows.

As a baseline I set the area around 50-60Hz approximately 10dB louder than the lower midrange. Pretty flat to 1kHz then a slight tilt towards 20kHz, depends on install and vehicle. 

If left and right side differs too much in amplitude you won't get a proper center image. Basically we hear differences in amplitude between left/right side in the higher frequencies but difference in time between the sides in the lower frequencies. T/A and EQ must be set to properly so the stage is centered both in the lows and highs. Begin getting L/R EQ right, then T/A is fairly easy to set (it becomes very easy to find the right setting). Mono male speech is a good tool to set T/A... or go with some of those car audio test discs ^^


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thank you both very much,

This is the last day I have for a while to work out the kinks..

I dug out my auto sound 2k discs, low and be hold, correlated pink noise...

I will essentially start from scratch as I can't say anything I have done this far will add value...

I understand what you mean by setting the levels, I sat in the garage last night and listened to the system play some IASCA tracks and my entire sound stage sits well right of center( probably due to my passenger channel being about 4db higher than driver side) 

If I truly understand you correctly, I will choose the frequencies you mention and level match those to exact or close to exact , then move on thoroughly the spectrum? 

I did lower my mid bass channels last night by about 3.5 db and my perception of what I was hearing had more clarity... I also switched out my jl audio 13" slim subs x2 and put my CDT 10" x2 sealed back in... Just plays smoother and a bit more accurate IMO...

I will measure at higher resolution and post a few plots shortly....

If there are any other thoughts please let me know... I plan to actually accomplish something today...

Thank you both again very much,


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

One more question... That might end up being a lie..

But, Han... Your midrange covers quite a bit of the frequency spectrum..
My components are as follows...
Mid bass 71/900
Midrange 900/4k
Tweet 4k
Sub 63

With my mid bass covering such a large amount of the frequency range ( according to Dynaudio recommended frequency range)
Is it possible I've chosen the wrong crossover points to achieve best response?

Dyn recommended ranges are as follows.
Tweet 2200-30,000
Midrange 700-6000
Mid bass 35-3500

In your plot you reference the 3" midrange that has a much wider frequency response. Should I also use my midrange as the reference as opposed to using my mid bass? And then introduce the others until crossovers match up?

Not sure if that makes sense?? But it's the best I can explain what my thought is...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> All plots are at 1/3 smoothing.
> 
> 6 measurements were taken for every average.
> 
> ...


You should keep the midbass highpass around 70Hz, try a 700Hz lowpass instead. Midrange could go slightly lower, I'd say 700Hz to 4kHz - all 24dB slopes instead (as initial setting). My recommendation is to work with the crossovers before EQing though. Try different crossovers/slopes each side, it's the acoustical FR that matters. Some frequencies might need a gap between drivers (might be high peaks in the area- for example). Put back the drivers so all share the same polarity before going any further. 

A tip is to use a temporary bandpass crossover between ~200-800Hz/24dB to notice which frequency to center more easily while running the cor. noise. 

Measure around the ears, set REQ to 4 sweeps in the measure tab (easiest, you get "auto averaging" then). If you don't got that box then download the latest BETA version of REW.

.... and don't sit for too long while tuning. Noise/tones give you listening fatigue very quickly. Pause every 10min!


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thanks Han,

I'm outside the vehicle so I can't hear anything inside the truck....

Have the mic at 26" on the driver seat centered in the middle of the headrest.
Have Been adjusting crossovers between 12,18,24db slope
12 seems to be the smoothest at this point.

All drivers have been put in acoustic phase.

No EQ has been used at this point...

Adjusted levels and its closer, but the mid bass is pretty flat from 71-162hz, but then has about at 15db null from 162-314hz...

Not much I can do with that... Then pretty flat from 314-1k
From 1k sharp drop to 1.37 then pretty flat to 4.12k
Then a steady drop downward...

Attached plot for reference...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Ok. Try a 400Hz 12dB lowpass on midbass and 1000Hz 12dB highpass on midrange (highpass).

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

BTW... Measure each side separately, a full system measurement don't tell the whole picture, based on the graph a 400Hz LP --> 1000Hz HP would bring that peak down pretty much


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> but then has about at 15db null from 162-314hz...


Most likely not a null, it's the other frequencies around this area which is "boosted". 

Check the "GD" tab in REW. In the right upper corner, press "Controls" then "Generate Minimum phase". This shows you excess group delay.

Any problem areas show up here (as peaks), note that it only works for one mic position, can't average that one.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Ok ...

Changed the crossovers and did some additional balancing..

Conditions.
Only using 1 mic...
Headrest measurements only.
Recalibrated the SPL just so it would read a little better its raining here and I didn't want to scue the readings...just bumped up the mic level in windows a bit...

Still no EQ being used, tried some PEQ but removed it just to see if a spot was responsinding or not...

Moved the crossovers around quite a bit and changed slope but it seems you just about hit the nail on the head...

That's quite a gap in crossover settings..

But I guess if it works, go with it...

Only using correlated pink noise,
Still on the passenger side only, haven't even begun the driver side but once I have a good reference I will have a target for that side.

Take a look at this plot and see what you think...

It would be great to hear you say I've made progress..

Thank you Han,


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Nothing is highlighted in the GD Tab,
I can't make any selections.
I'm only using the PC sound card right now with no loop back...

Just the USB mic plugged directly into PC if that makes a difference?


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

BTW,

The current graph shows
Passenger side 
Mid bass and midrange

Then I threw in the tweet just to see where it would land.

So only 2 curves on this...

Also no TCR has been introduced as of yet...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Looks much better... 

Try (yellow plot);


-5dB @ 90Hz Q9
-3dB @ 160Hz Q6
-3dB @ 650Hz Q2,5
-5dB @ 6300Hz Q5


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thank god...

I was hoping you we're going to tell me it looked better...

Going to try PEQ in 5 minutes...

Bladder gave out... 

FYI...

1. My pxah800 has Either PEQ or EQ so I can't do both at the same time.
2. Tightest Q is 5...
3. I do have a DQXS I could always install if I need both though...

I should put up a few pics of the install at some point also?

Thank you again, hate to be interrupting your day...


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> A tip is to use a temporary bandpass crossover between ~200-800Hz/24dB to notice which frequency to center more easily while running the cor. noise.
> 
> Measure around the ears, set REQ to 4 sweeps in the measure tab (easiest, you get "auto averaging" then). If you don't got that box then download the latest BETA version of REW.
> 
> .... and don't sit for too long while tuning. Noise/tones give you listening fatigue very quickly. Pause every 10min!


All great points, OP, listen to this guy, he has helped me tremendously, as has many others such as sqnut....in fact this forum is chock full of good help, I can't even remember how many people have helped me since I got a dsp a couple months ago...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Understood,

I can't tell you how much I appreciate the crash course...
I hate the fact that I don't know enough to figure this out on my own, but I'm truly thankful to Han and all for helping me out...

Many thanks!!!

So here is what we have ...
Come a long way since this morning...

Take a look and let me know what you think...

Can't wait to listen to something other than pink noise, but I bet we all say that...

Here is my current plot of passenger side only with PEQ applied...
No TCR has been done yet but I have the initial measurements so it shouldn't be to bad...

Thanks a million!!!


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Also some pics of the gear in case anyone tries to follow my experience that might possibly have the same set up...

I've learned a lot already...

REW makes things easier and a little harder at the same time, 
Learning new software , relying on something other than my ears...

All make for a new experience...

I can see why you guys love this so much...

Thank you all again,


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

A couple more pics


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

One last pic...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Looks good. Perhaps you wanna get rid of the peak around 70-90Hz. You might prefer a little kick in that area, idk 

The shelf 100-200Hz might still be a little hot... lower the entire 70-160Hz area if it sounds boomy. Overall FR looks great otherwise but let your ears decide! 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

So how does it sound?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hey thank you Han,

Couldn't have done it without you...

The crash course was worth its weight in gold!!'

My plan is to take a little break get some dinner...

Doing to the driver side this evening...

Should be a no brainer now that I have a better grasp on what to do...

I agree, my thought was to continue to smooth things out a bit as long as attenuating is working... I can't bring myself to boost a frequency unless I have to... 

Be great to hear it play tonight and actually plug the sub in!!!

Once again thank you very much and if you lived a little closer I would buy you dinner... Have a great evening and I will send the start and stop plots for the driver side soon...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Going to have a full report on the sound this evening..

I think it would be unfair to judge it before I play both sides...

The anticipation is killing me. ... Nice to have company ...

Stay tuned.....


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Nothing is highlighted in the GD Tab,
> I can't make any selections.
> I'm only using the PC sound card right now with no loop back...
> 
> Just the USB mic plugged directly into PC if that makes a difference?


The GD tab will remain empty if the measurement is averaged. Also you must use sweeps, RTA and Pink Noise won't work.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Once again thank you very much and if you lived a little closer I would buy you dinner... Have a great evening and I will send the start and stop plots for the driver side soon...


Thanks, it's the thought that counts


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> The GD tab will remain empty if the measurement is averaged. Also you must use sweeps, RTA and Pink Noise won't work.


Han, 

I understand the first part of this but not quite sure I understand the second part?

" must use sweeps" am I using sweeps also but for another reason?
I would have to run an RCA out of PC to aux in 2 on h800
To record the sweeps correct?

I think it's 3:30 in Sweden so I'm going to continue down the path I'm on for now...

Thanks Han,


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Han,
> 
> I understand the first part of this but not quite sure I understand the second part?
> 
> ...


Yes. It needs be able to send a signal into the system to run the sweeps. Use the far left button called "Measure" and you'll see a pop-up window.

Honestly I think those RTAs look really damn good. You can come to my house and tune my car for me if you want.  Hope it sounds as good as it looks on paper!


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

LoL... 

Without Han and yourself keeping an eye on me I would surely still be reading REW help threads...

Be more than happy to provide beverage support though...

I may postpone running any sweeps until I get the driver side up and running...

Have it back in the garage and getting things set back up now....

Hope it's not a long night... But will surely be posting the driver side plots with the passenger base line...

I appreciate the feedback on the plots lets hope the next one turns out as well...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Well...

Took about and hour and a half...

Looks pretty good to me?

Any thoughts???

This is driver side and passenger side plots front stage total...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

So initial sound opinion...

Listened to a couple quick jazz tracks and a couple rock tunes...

This is no sub yet.
No TCR at all yet...
I've never heard a sound so airy, holographic, well balanced...
I could precisely tell where the saxophone was standing...

The sound stage needs a little work once I dial in frequencies and set TCR...

I honestly think it will fall right into place...

My sound stage had always been so smeared and diffuse at times....

But this is almost needle point precise...

I have a track from Focal " the Bulb Drop"

Scared the hell out of me... Also.... Not good to tune at night with dogs in the subdivision... SOB's bark at anything...

In any case, introducing the sub tomorrow and may take .5db out of the driver side tweeter... I could just barely localize it in the sound stage and now that I study the plot it looks like it wouldn't hurt...

Only used 3 bands of PEQ and the crossovers look a little goofy but as Han said " it's about the frequency response...

I will post before and after plots of the entire system...
As well as the sub plots in case anyone is interested...

Thank you all again, and I can't thank you enough,


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

That's sweet! Glad to hear that you're enjoying it. You must be a natural or something, lol.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Curious about how the two curves sound. Just the tonality, not the imaging. You obviously worked on the L/R response between these two curves. I would think that your current response might be a bit thin and bright. The first curve, while looking correct in concept, has too much of a roll off from 900-20k. 

Keep your current L/R balance and try to aim for a 12-15db roll off from 1khz-20khz. Then cut and boost at 1/3 oct from 1 khz up to get the tonality right. See what you come up with.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Well...
> 
> Took about and hour and a half...
> 
> ...


Looks very smooth 

SPLEclipse is right, you need to use the computers output to be able to run sweeps. Sweeps allows you to measure additional data, distortion, decay, phase etc etc.

The plot looks good. As sqnut said but might want a steeper tilt beyond 1kHz but don't overdo it, set T/A and have a listen first. If the upper midrange is too bright you can go ahead and increase the rolloff towards 20kHz. L/R balance looks great, as well as the overall curve shape otherwise.

Glad to hear you made progress!


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thank you Guys,

I'm in agreement, 

The sound stage is very light and airy, without the sub playing I hate to take a guess but at first listen it is a bit bright, but in a positive way... I have much more clarity throughout the in tire spectrum...

So...

I went through both curves last nigh, averaged out their differences numerically... Still thinking about how to use that info...

But I plan to get back to it late today....

Are we ok with how the curve looks up to 1k?


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Thank you Guys,
> 
> I'm in agreement,
> 
> ...


 From experience over the last couple of months, I can tell you to not try and chase very small differences from left to right...in fact, if I make both sides match in level in the 2k-10k range...it does not sound "right" and the right side will be too "hot", maybe one of my ears are damaged (probably, I had four 15" subs a few years ago!).

Once I found a happy "housecurve" and generated an EQ plot via REW, I fine tuned by ear from there. I have been making small changes, working mainly on the 2k and 7k ranges in small increments, to get the stage high and tight, and after a couple weeks if driving with it, I have gotten my highs coming from the upper dash area.

TA is CRITICAL to get the image dead on. I had my EUREKA moment last week in the TA department and man, I tell you, I did not know what I was missing.

I did ALL of my final level balancing on the midbass and high end, by ear, once I figured out TA (with help from sqnut and hanatsu).

Isn't this **** addicting?


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Are we ok with how the curve looks up to 1k?


I am running my Imagines in co-ax mode, behind an oem grill, when I had the high end similar to yours, I found it far too flat and lifeless. I had to raise my 3k-6k range a bit (a low, flat "hump") to get tonality correct. I am going to move my tweets out to the upper door trim soon though, and will have to start all over with them since I bet they are going to be screaming at me.

You might try playing with the 2k and 7k range with a very wide Q (I am using "1" right now)...just to see where it takes you. 2k is the stage height and 7k is the "sssss" sounds on vocals, among other things. It doesn't take much though..


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

To start out ...

It's very addictive... Beyond my ability to explain ...

I guess some background would be in order...

This is only my 5th SQ type install ...

Multiple vehicles...

First was a complete Kenwood setup...
I was new, so I didn't know....
But I learned quickly that the sound I was looking for was far from reach...
Done by a local shop...

2nd... German Maestro M line ...
Also local shop...
Great mid bass , tweeters could cut glass and it didn't take long to reach out for help... Also the 2 - 8's German's ported were a mistake...
Lesson learned!!!

3rd... CDT ES62ius upstage... 
2 CDT 10's sealed...
Tech 12 volt did the install in Georgia...
Sealed the doors and installed all in one night...
Drove away happy...
James pointed out all the bad wiring fr the previous install that the local shop had done, you might have read the thread..
2010 Toyota tundra bad install...
Loved that system...
But soon set my sights on a DSP driven system with endless capabilities.

4th... Jl audio c5 3way passive...
The big leagues... Or so I thought..
It seems once you get to this level you have to have some knowledge of good install techniques...
The local shop did some great work but some small mistakes were made that only after 2 weeks I got rid of the vehicle...
Brand new Toyota FJ Cruiser...
Seems putting the mids on the dash and the tweeters low in the door next to the mid bass ( according to JL Audio ) was a bad choice for the ship to make...
Lesson learned... Also ported w710's... Bad idea...
DQXS was nice but not very modern in its inner workings...

5th and current...
2013 Toyota Tundra...
Dynaudio 362 fully active ...
I'm all grown up now....
The sound I want is so close I can touch it yet a million miles away...
Seems its always another tuning session, recording pink noise...
And oddly enough... That's what I love about it...
Not just popping in another CD ( I only listen to CD's )
No or very rarely will and Mp3 play in my vehicle. ( unless I take my 5 year old daughter to school and I have to play Katy Perry for her )
With the windows down while she eats her early morning Healthy doughnut from Tim Hortons... ( I don't have the ability to say No to her)

In any case much of the physical install was done at a great shop in Ohio... But I have made some upgrades And sealed almost everything I can get my hands on...

Rammat and ensolite are my choices... They seem to work well as the vehicle specific kits are great... 


In any case,
Thank you guys for helping me work this out...
I plan to record a few more measurements , make some final adjustments ( taking everyone's advise ) I agree the 1k- 20k range is very bright after sampling multiple tracks...

Plan to drop that by a couple db and take another listen...
Hope to have a few curves out tonight that include pass/driver/ Sub...

With any luck I will actually listen to some music...
Last night to tune and then back on the road Monday...
I travel for work so my days are numbered...

Stay tuned...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> No or very rarely will and Mp3 play in my vehicle. ( unless I take my 5 year old daughter to school and I have to play Katy Perry for her )
> With the windows down while she eats her early morning Healthy doughnut from Tim Hortons... _*( I don't have the ability to say No to her)*_


You're in big trouble. Been there, am there with mine.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

I need therapy... Or say the wife says...

Still plugging away....

Not much progress tonight...

Make an adjustment, and then go back...

Seems the the whole curve is a big slope now...

Going to go back to my preset and start over...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> The sound I want is so close I can touch it yet a million miles away...


That's cause you're thinking and trying to do things at a million miles an hour . Slow down and you'll make progress. Progress in this hobby is at a crawl, that's why it takes so darn long. Make small changes in smaller area's and map how the sound changes. It's impossible to say 'better' or 'worse' with any degree of accuracy, if you're flying through the tweaking.

The toughest part is learning to pick a defect, identify the band causing it and then tweaking that narrow band, in small steps. As opposed to taking random potshots and messing up something else. This takes a while and a ton of patience. 

If you try and move too fast, everything will stay in a state of perpetual flux. That, nearly there kind of feeling. Get your sub in the mix and get the TA going.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Your right,

I had visions of getting it very close this weekend...

Very good advice.... Thank you for that...

T/A and sub.... Stay tuned...


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Nice thread going! I did the same thing in the beginning haha, just a few weeks ago. Now I try to listen for a day or two before I change anything. I have a very solid sound going now and have I ly made minor tweaks since my eureka moment. I have the tonality I want pretty much, dialing in TA has been my focus.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Harman How to Listen: Welcome to How to Listen!

Wanna learn how to EQ for tonality? Try this little app. Great training program which teaches you what to listen for...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

thank you Guys,

i will surely check out the app...

beats listening to pink noise...

so...

i set initial T/A based on physical measurements and a small bit of tweaking to get it close...

incorporated the sub, crossed at 63/12..

stage is skewed slightly right mid bass region, slightly right midrange region..

seems like another 1-2db could be rolled off the high end...

seems to be very clear, think i was very used to a much dirtier sound, with the midbass anomolies that muddy up the lower midrange...

taking everyone's advice, i would like to try to get things a little flatter from 60-1k... my thought was... i am currently crossed at 71/24 midbass...
may raise that as far as 90-100/12-24?

once i rolled the sub in at 63/12 lost some clarity and seems a little boomy...

any thoughts or better ideas?

i dont think i can get the curves any flatter with out some serious critical listening time spent..


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Guys,

Got the T/A worked in, not perfect but a good start solid center...
Added the sub and ran some curves...

See below...
Gold curve passenger side without sub with T/A
Red curve with sub and T/A

Feel free to pick this apart... Changed the mid bass crossover to 100/500
To smooth out a huge hump at 90hz... Came down quite a bit...
Still crossing the midrange at 1k/4k 
Dropped level on MB by .5db 
No additional EQ applied...

If it looks bad, just tell me.... Short of that I may knock out the driver side and take a listen....

Thanks guys,


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Steeper slopes on the sub. Try 24dB/oct. Try inverting phase.

Measure different sub/mid T/A settings and compare them to eachother in the overlays tab in REW. See which setting gives to the flattest/best response. Try 2ms increments up and down.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Imo, 100Hz --> 200Hz shouldn't differ more than 10dB or so. Try reduce the 100Hz area slightly and see how it sounds. The rest of the plot looks pretty normal otherwise 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I like more tilt on the sub as well. 20Hz 6-7dB above 40Hz and 40Hz 4-5dB above 100Hz 

Try that as well. Try a very low sub crossover... like 31Hz/12dB perhaps, then increase the level. In this instance a swallower slope can be used...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thanks Han,

I have been saving each session as a preset, so going back will be easy...

Is there a good example what an acceptable curve might look like in the sub stage area?

It's a tough one IMO as that entire area always sounds pretty good to me...

Although I like my Kick a little more pronounced and a slight bit puffy...
As opposed to hearing the front end of the attack...

I'm a drummer by nature so I tend to listen to a few percussion cues...

Kick, snare, Hi-Hat...
Cymbals for sybilance...

Ps...
Your build log has been good reading...


Thank you Han,


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

While integrating sub with mid bass I normally start with a low xover point ~50-70, no under or overlap, on 24db slopes or steeper. I will Then play the pink noise tracks from 40-125. I am looking to get a roughly equal perceived loudness in this zone. If I measure this range it is a downward slope from about 40hz on but it should sound more or less at the same level. Perceived loudness being a sum of what you hear and feel. So 50hz which is largely from the sub may sound at a slightly lower level than 100 from your mids, but the 50hz note would have a tactile element to it, which when combined with how loud it is gives a similar perceived loudness to 100 which may sound a bit louder but without the tactile input......very loose description. I will run 60 and 100 a touch hotter for some added mass and energy in the mid bass. 

That to my mind is about 60-70% sub mid bass integration. Getting the TA right between mids and sub is the balance bit. Of course all this goes out the window if the 800-4khz range is hot. You could have good sub and mid bass integration, but it will sound kinda thin if the 800-4khz range is hot.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thank you for that ...

I did end up with some time yesterday evening to do some measuring and listening...

First, my only goal was to work on the sub to mid bass crossover point... 
I had a couple good curves going, ( out of a what seems like a thousand attempts) I ended up saving 2!!! 

This may sound very elementary, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Initially I had set the mids relative level to play clean at 90db.

I then moved to add the other drivers to blend using that general base line.

Turns out that had to be the wrong method...

I couldn't get a good curve or integration of sub and mid bass driver given that initial setting. I have since been level adjusting my mid bass from -3.5db to where I am now about -5.5/-6.0 db.

Which has made the curves look better on paper.
What I hear is sound above the dash, not lingering near the edges of the dash or occasionally falling toward the door panels.

It sounds very focused, compared to before.
Not bassy and without any mid bass anomalies.

It's almost impossible to tell the sub is playing.
Where as before it was very evident.

I was using band passed pink noise 100-400hz
To record.... 

My only goal at this point, ( per the direction of some good friends) is to focus on just one thing at each tuning session.
And right now that is the number one problem.

So, I have a decent curve wit good tilt from about 15-20 hz almost on a straight line downward sub crossed 63/12 mid bass 71/24 .
Mid bass attenuated from my original measures -3.5db to -5.5/-6.0db
Sub attenuated a bit via JL Audio sub control knob.
Everything in phase at this point.

Does this all make sense or am I just grasping at straws?

Should I be able to run the mid bass drivers at the max set voltage when gains were set or is it common to have to attenuate to obtain a smooth response?

Interesting thing is I haven't noticed a huge loss in perceived loudness.
Just a very detailed reproduction of the sample.

What are your thoughts?


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Sorry one other thing bugging me.

We thought I had to much diversity between 100-200 hz.

I was at more or less than 10db difference between the two.

I can't seem to waddle that down by more than a db or two.

From 200-400 it slopes downward slightly by about 2-3db.
As opposed the being relatively flat as Han had recommended.

What would shorten the gap between the 100-200 hz area while keeping 200-400 relatively flat..

Before my blood pressure goes through the roof....

I do love this sport!!! Full contact SQ...

Thanks again guys, hope you are all doing well...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

12 db is a very shallow slope for the sub. Going by the 'down 24 db rule', the sub is playing a role in your sound ~200hz. Try keeping the sub and mid xover at the same point. Try 70hz with both sets of drivers at 24db/oct. Also, I don't attenuate the mids or sub. The only drivers I lower the levels on are the tweeters ~ -5 to -6db. 

When you run the pink noise tracks, they should seem to be at the same level. Spend some time on this. You're hooked nice and proper


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> What would shorten the gap between the 100-200 hz area while keeping 200-400 relatively flat..


100-200 is due to a shallow slope on your sub. You're trying to cut the mids in this area and not seeing a significant change in the way this range measures. That's cause a chunk of this is coming from your sub. Put your sub on a steep slope and this range will be less hot.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Ok will do...

Let me say this ...

I have a measurement library that would choke a horse right now.

I bought a 3 ring binder to print the good curves, and keep all my notes...
As well as all of my teachers thread responses...

Looks like I need a bigger binder....

That's good news though, I really don't want to attenuate the mid bass as they play very well... Wish my midrange had a wider affective area...
700-3500?? The Dyn tweeter is very smooth though and I'm a tweeter critic...
The German Maestro M line tweeter drove me crazy but taught a good lesson...

Don't buy a tweeter just because it weighs 10 pounds....

Question....
Is there a useful book or something of that sort?
I've read so many threads its hard to compile accurate info.

I am very thankful I have you guys steering me down the right path...

Thank you as always,

Shawn


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

You can take the dyn woofer down to 50hz on a steep slope, the mids to 200 and tweeter to about 1.6khz. You don't need to run them there but that's just how low they will play safely. Just saw the FR charts on the dynaudio site.

Cross the sub and midbass at 70hz on 24 db slopes, woofer and mid at 400hz again 24db slopes and mid to tweet at 4khz @24. Try this and see how it sounds. I'm taking 400 and 4khz at xover points as these are two frequencies that normally need attenuation in any case.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

SQ,

Thank you very much....

I appreciate you taking a look at the specs...

Initially I had the midrange crossed at 400/12 per the advice of the Dyn Dealer, 

But once I started to listen intently I just didn't think it sounded right..

When I say this remember... I was never accused for being the smart guy in class.... So I raised the crossover from 400 on up till I hit 900...
Low and behold it sounded better... Still with 12db slope...

See where I'm going with this??

What I should have done was change the slope from 12 to 24 and I probably would have been much happier with the sound....

Coming from a NEWBIE there are so many things we can do to make things sound better, and many times I make the wrong choice...

This is the way I look at the REW software right now...
Measuring the system a hundred times isn't the cure...
The cure is understanding what the measurement shows,
And mapping out an acceptable, performance oriented resolution.

I thought just because I bought a fancy calibrated mic, my system would sound better... Now I do more math than my wife...
And she's a billing manager for a hospital...

I'm like what do you mean you don't know how to convert meters into inches?
And who new I would be able to understand how to equate that along with the speed of sound to provide delay measurements?!!

Really??

I may be the smartest drummer in the world!!!

We're not known for having an excess of intelligence...

Sorry about rambling just trying to convey my Humility...

Thank you,


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

You're doing fine. Everyone who has spent time in this hobby has walked the same path you're walking now. No matter how far down the road you get, in this hobby, you're still learning and still making mistakes. The sound may get better and better but it will always be a wip.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

"The sound may get better and better but it will always be a wip"

Impossible to say it any better...


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Having fun following this thread. My car is in the shop now getting the install done. I'm also using a PXA-H800 and Dyns (2-way set though; 242gt). I also recently put REW on my Macbook and ordered a miniDSP mic so the thread is quite relevant for me.

Thanks sbaum, Hanatsu, sqnut, etc. Keep it coming.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

No shortage on relevant issues here....

With any luck this thread may provide some help for someone Just Like Me...

The guys are great and I couldn't do this without them...

You will completely enjoy the pxa-h800...
But reading the manual well before you dive in will greatly reduce your learning curve...

Enjoy!!!


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> No shortage on relevant issues here....
> 
> With any luck this thread may provide some help for someone Just Like Me...
> 
> ...


Yeah, the unit should be here tomorrow, but I already have the manual printed out and have read through it twice--I even wrote down a few notes.


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Hey, a quick question:

Is there any particular reason for EQing before TA?

I'm reading through some tuning threads here, and I see that people tend to TA after EQ but I can't tell if the order really matters.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Not that you need to go this extent, but i printed everything, in case I ever sell anything, people like unmutilated manuals...

3 hole punch...

3 ring binder...

It's always there if I need to make notes...

Also, this evening I plan to post all the links to the things that have helped me as well as some tuning tracks that were hard for me to find...

Not that it will be needed by everyone but it will be there if someone needs it...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

That may be above my pay grade,

I've been using pink noise to measure, and I don't think T/A has a huge affect on Pink Noise... So EQ'ing at this point is being used to take unruly peaks... 

Once T/A is applied I will surely go back and recheck my PEQ to see if anything has changed and adjust as needed...

I don't think EQ something we set and never look at again anyways...

IMO ... Trust me... You will be revisiting EQ before or after any major adjustment...

Feel free to correct me if speaking out of turn...


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

That sounds reasonable. 

FWIW, I'm using my stock HU for now and I'll be using an AudioControl LCQ-1. It's a LOC but also has some EQ functions. That way I'll have the graphic EQ of the LCQ to do some basic smoothing and the PXA's PEQ for really dialing it in. Maybe overkill, but we shall see.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

I wouldn't take my word on it..

Maybe SQ or Han can answer that question with more certainty??


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Deadpool_25 said:


> I can't tell if the order really matters.


It doesn't. I TA before I eq, a lot of people do it the other way. Both ways work.


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

sqnut said:


> It doesn't. I TA before I eq, a lot of people do it the other way. Both ways work.


Thanks


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I always EQ before T/A. Simple reason: If L/R EQ is way off it will be hard to find the "correct" T/A setting. Of course, there are others that tune their systems in other ways and it can be done other way around, but that's not how I do it.

But it's kinda tricky, if you fiddle with EQ you alter phase, if you fiddle with T/A you alter the combined FR. Both are intertwined with eachother, both need to be correct in order to get good staging. I find it more straightforward to just set L/R EQ by measurements then T/A by ear, then fine tune L/R EQ by ear, then fine-tune T/A again ^^


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

A rule of thumb, don't ever go near the resonance (Fs) of any dome midrange or tweeter. With steep slopes (18dB+) you can normally go as close as 1,5x Resonance Frequency, with 12dB slopes = 2x Fs.

If you push them too close to Fs it will either sound bad or the drivers get damaged. They will have very bad power handling around Fs in any case.

Dyn 102 tweet = Fs 1300Hz
Dyn 142 mid dome = Fs 475Hz.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> I've been using pink noise to measure, and I don't think T/A has a huge affect on Pink Noise... So EQ'ing at this point is being used to take unruly peaks...


Correlated PN will show lots you artifacts (most often dips) in the FR when playing both sides. Uncorrelated (stereo) noise will not show you the same response (since both side now play random noise which is very unlikely to cause standing waves). Don't use mono noise (correlated) for FR measurements, it's simply used for T/A and staging purposes.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> I always EQ before T/A. Simple reason: If L/R EQ is way off it will be hard to find the "correct" T/A setting. Of course, there are others that tune their systems in other ways and it can be done other way around, but that's not how I do it.
> 
> But it's kinda tricky, if you fiddle with EQ you alter phase, if you fiddle with T/A you alter the combined FR. Both are intertwined with eachother, both need to be correct in order to get good staging. I find it more straightforward to just set L/R EQ by measurements then T/A by ear, then fine tune L/R EQ by ear, then fine-tune T/A again ^^


Ok...

I certainly understand both techniques...
I see how both would have the same end result...
This may be a good opportunity to see which way works best for me...
I can see this is Not a one size fits all...

Is there any way to discern which way is truly best or is it simply user preference?

Either way I plan to test both theories and see where it takes me...

I do see value in both ways and I apologize for not being able to better support my response....


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> A rule of thumb, don't ever go near the resonance (Fs) of any dome midrange or tweeter. With steep slopes (18dB+) you can normally go as close as 1,5x Resonance Frequency, with 12dB slopes = 2x Fs.
> 
> If you push them too close to Fs it will either sound bad or the drivers get damaged. They will have very bad power handling around Fs in any case.
> 
> ...


Han,

Not sure I understand....

I do know its best to stay away from the tweeter Fs or atleast 2x Fs on tweeter.
I was unaware of this on midrange or midbass.
I do see where SQ was going to shed more light on my crossover question.

I think tweeter is comfortable at 4k and I can play with slopes to find the best response...

But since midbass and midrange are the anchor and truly causing me the most grief at this point. What would be your honest opinion as to my initial problem?

100-200hz range gap diversity is 10db (+/-) 2db
Depending on the crossover. Then 200-400 slopes back upward.
Can't quite get that range figured out. And can't seem to get it flat.

SQ recommended the 24db slopes as well as yourself in an earlier post...although I didn't try 24 db slopes between sub and midbass i see where you are both going and plan to experiment.

But I guess I'm curious as to the 400hz high pass filter on the midrange driver.
We discussed earlier.... 
Are we saying 400/24 might be a bit low?
1.5x Fs @ 475= 712 ... 2x Fs @475= 950
712/12db slope would equate to a 12db attenuation @ 356hz
950 /12db slope would equate to a 12 db attenuation @ 475 which is Fs.

I'm at a standstill...or should I experiment in this area?


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

as promised some links that have helped me ...

this may not help all but might be valuable for someone new to the game...

1. REW- Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

very helpful software... free but please consider making a donation...

2.MINI DSP UMIK-1 measurement mic- Acoustic Measurement Tools | MiniDSP

comes with cal file, takes about a week to get, very nice for the money, about 90.00 total with overseas shipping...

3.this Forum, that truly is a forum where advice and answers are sought and professionals are willing to help... thank you for that...

4.link to 100 or so helpful tracks, IASCA, Autosound 2000, Focal... tuning, staging, etc...https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oj2w2bz2zolbkpw/sxwWAspDaA

5. Han turned me on to this one... Audacity... a great tool for generating sound files...
http://audacity.sourceforge.net

hope someone finds this valuable...

thank you,


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

You will be fine with the mid crossed at 400-500 on a 24 db slope. Don't get caught up with the 1.5x or 2.0x formulas. It's ok to drive a woofer/mid near its fs *as long as you use steep slopes*. With a tweeter it's a different story. 

You've already set the FR on the eq so just work on the TA. In any case initially you will go back and forth between TA and EQ so what you set first becomes a bit moot.


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

I've been looking for some of those tracks for a while, thanks!

Some thoughts after reading over your last few posts (in no particular order)

1) Like Han said: any changes in EQ will change phase relationships, which can throw off your carefully tweaked T/A. It's a never ending relationship: you EQ, then time align, then see something pop up when you measure FR again, so you go back and EQ (or change crossovers, which is for all intents and purposes the same thing), then your stage shifts a bit, so you re-T/A and so on...

2) One thing I've noticed about peoples recommended midbass response shape is that it's almost never universal. When I try to keep mine on the "flat" side everything becomes way too resonant and bloated. One thing I only recently figured out in my car: sometimes I would a/b different settings and couldn't really tell which one was "better", but I always tended toward the one that sounded more "full" or "warmer" with the expectation that I could always knock everything down with EQ if need be. Doing the exact opposite has been one of the single biggest changes (to the better) I've made.

The same idea applies to FR in general. My FR looks the worst on paper it ever has and yet sounds better than anything I've had to date. However....both sides look _equally_ bad, and when measured with uncorrelated PN, the summed response looks almost dead-on the same (albeit a couple dB higher) than either the left or right side individually.

3) T/A is a royal PITA. I've been working on it for months with little improvements here and there, but it wasn't until about a week ago that I finally hit on something that literally gave me goose bumps! I was doing impulse response measurements of each individual speaker and then setting the T/A accordingly. Finally on a whim I just ran a full range sweep on each side (with all speakers on that side playing) and looked at the per-side difference. It was .25ms, which isn't a lot. I went in and adjusted all three speakers on the side that needed to be delayed by .25ms and it somehow all locked into place! I completely didn't expect that to happen!

Sorry for the rambling, I'm going through some of the same stuff you are right now so hopefully a little bit of that might make sense, lol.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Han,
> 
> Not sure I understand....
> 
> ...


Dome midranges and tweeters can basically be treated the same way. They have very low Xmax and the power handling around Fs is not good at all. Midbass drivers/woofers can be run through resonance, we do that all the time. 

The louder you play the higher the volume at Fs will be. If a driver has an amplitude of 100dB through its passband and you cross it at 1000Hz 12dB/oct then it'll be playing 88dB @ 500Hz and 76dB @ 250Hz - the same with a 30dB/oct filter will be playing 70dB @ 500Hz and 40dB @ 250Hz.

Your midrange dome has a Fs of ~500Hz. Look at the datasheet, distortion goes up the closer you get to resonance. I wouldn't go below 700Hz even with an extremely steep slope.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

i knew that Midrange was going to cause me problems...

so here is the data sheet on the midrange driver...


and for what its worth, how about i test both opinions?

i mean ... i gotta know...

so... 400/24, 500/24, 600/24, 700/24, 800/24.... pink noise, 

i'll measure each crossover and post the plots???

what is there to lose, one midrange driver??? i don't like that one anyways...

would recording at those points in that manner show me the sweet spot for this driver? and maybe you could tell me what to look for when i am trying to troubleshoot frequency issues??? that would really help if i new what i was looking for in a situation like this....

so i will post them up tonight...for those of us in the U.S. .. good luck tuning over the next couple days.... my neighbor is preparing to blow his house up for sure this year... i hope he succeeds!!!!! Happy 4th....


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Do what you did with the slope at 12db. Start at ~500 and work your way higher on 24db. You're looking for sound that's less grainy and clearer. Han's right on this one. Domes don't go as low as the cone mids. It's a question of if you would hear an extra 0.5% distortion at 250hz. I'm not sure if you would hear that differential. Try and see if you can settle ~600.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

SPLEclipse said:


> I've been looking for some of those tracks for a while, thanks!
> 
> Some thoughts after reading over your last few posts (in no particular order)
> 
> ...



thanks SPL... everything makes much more sense lately.... i think another week or 2 and i should have this about 2% figured out... give or take 1%...

but i do appreciate the help... and hey... glad you found value in the tracks..
i have hundreds from guys that have run sound, or recording people... most are of virgin quality... some are not... but they all seem to do what they are supposed to... my favorite is the Bulb Drop... love catching the wife off guard with that one... let me know if you want anything complete, like the WHOLE Focal collection or something...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> Do what you did with the slope at 12db. Start at ~500 and work your way higher on 24db. You're looking for sound that's less grainy and clearer. Han's right on this one. Domes don't go as low as the cone mids. It's a question of if you would hear an extra 0.5% distortion at 250hz. I'm not sure if you would hear that differential. Try and see if you can settle ~600.



that sounds Doable.... you think for the hell of it i can post the test plots for the various crossover points?? might be a good discussion... 

im going to do some listening later today.. and record a few pots this evening...

i think next step after this is set up for running group delay, see how much close i can get T/A... 

my thought is to run 2.5/3.5 not sure which yet, out of PC to RCA to H800 aux in??? should work if i can figure out how to coordinate the HU source/ AND H800 Source... unless the H800 will let the audio play straight through???


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> Correlated PN will show lots you artifacts (most often dips) in the FR when playing both sides. Uncorrelated (stereo) noise will not show you the same response (since both side now play random noise which is very unlikely to cause standing waves). Don't use mono noise (correlated) for FR measurements, it's simply used for T/A and staging purposes.


this is very good to know... 
so anything correlated can be used for T/A, but not FR...

im gonna have to write that one down somewhere...

thank you Han,


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

guys,

not sure anyone has this, but it was given to me a couple years ago..
has some good stuff on it...

the Alpine 5.1 DVD...

Ripped with MDRP for mac
converted with HandBrake for mac

should work well if you have the ability to burn DVD's...

hope you enjoy it....

should have the link up here momentarily....


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> ... let me know if you want anything complete, like the WHOLE Focal collection or something...


Since you are taking requests.......

1. Chesky demo disk

2. A file with pink noise for L & R channel. One where a narrator mentions the frequency before each tone. So 50 left then 50 R then 63 left etc. The tracks for L/R that I have are like the ones you uploaded. When I'm measuring and noting it goes on to the next frequency and by the time I'm done noting, it's already into the third frequency and I'm lost...not very smart and quick .


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

I may have that one...

Had to run out for a bit but as soon as I get back I will upload the Alpine DVD and look for the track you requested...

I used the one I think your talking about, it does move much faster than my little brain...

But it's a good one isn't it?

If you don't mind me asking, as I am so inquisitive...

What type of notes do you take on a track like that?

Any examples might give me a better idea as to what I should be listening for...

Other than... WOW!!! That doesn't sound right....


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

ok guys, sorry for the delay...

that link should be good..

the alpine dvd.iso disc image... mac

and the sheffield disc about 99 tracks..

so a couple hundred total..

sq... not sure about the chesky track... i have some cheeky, but didnt see that one... check out what i posted and let me know what you think...

thunder and lightning here so no measurements tonight... but did some preliminary EQ ... have to say... not to bad... just need to spend some more time listening... thank you again guys...


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> If you don't mind me asking, as I am so inquisitive...
> 
> What type of notes do you take on a track like that?
> 
> ...


I'm measuring the L/R response at each frequency and writing it down on an excel sheet. Really old school. 

Every once in a while I will come back and see if my tweaking has thrown the L/R balance out. I normally do this when I have an issue that I just cant seem to cure. Other than that, its all by ear. I guess I could use REW or something similar and measure regularly, but at the end of the day I'm tuning based on what I'm hearing. 

So, if I have this brassy, slightly metallic and thin sound that sounds grainy and like there's excess chaff in it: 

Instinctively I would start by making small cuts at 2.5/1.6/600~800 for the brassy harshness, stop and listen. Check if 6-8khz now becomes too bright after these cuts, if so cut here, stop and listen. 

Check to see if these changes thus far, have brought up the low end a bit and if not then try a touch more at 60/100~125 for a bit more rumble and energy, or a bit at 160 as a last resort, stop and listen. Now if the sound is still grainy with chaff, I would cut 400 and 4khz. Stop and listen. 

If the changes thus far have cured a lot of the problems, but left the overall sound a bit dull and lifeless and the vocals are a bit lost in the mix, then raise 800 a bit for better vocal clarity and see if you can raise 1-1.2khz a bit without thinning the sound out. You're going to get dynamics in the 1-2khz range but it can thin out the sound real quick as well. Stop and listen.

This should take about 20-25 mts, which means I'm at the end of the session. As a last step A/B between the last saved setting and this one and see which is better. If the current one still has holes but is better overall, save it as a preset. 

In case the current one is worse in more ways than its better, I'll delete it and go back to the earlier setting and walk away from a sucky day at the office. In both cases the damn thing will still be a wip. Feel free to kick the tires on your way back.

I measure to make sure the big things are in place, L/R balance, drivers in mechanical phase etc. The rest is by ear.


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## trotter13 (Dec 2, 2012)

Tried the drop box link and got folder is empty.
Tom


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

had to organize it a bit...

give it 30 minutes and recheck..

added some Chesky....

60 something downloads on the other link and not even a thank you...

hmmm.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> added some Chesky....
> 
> 60 something downloads on the other link and not even a thank you...
> 
> hmmm.


Yeah, we're an ungrateful lot. We don't say thanks when we get stuff for free . Btw, thanks for the Chesky tracks. Had been looking for these for a long time.


----------



## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> ...I watched Erin's YouTube video multiple times and thought I was headed in the right direction...


What video is this please? I'm looking for info on getting started with REW. There are plenty of YouTube videos, but I'm wondering if there are any particular ones DIYMA recommends.

Nevermind. Found it like 30 seconds after asking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bds759UuWiU


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Yeah, that's a good instruction video on how to use the RTA function. As Erin mentions in the vid, you will not be able to use any of REW's more advanced functions as waterfall/decay/phase domain (GD)/impulse/distortion if you go with RTA/Pink Noise. If you can, run sweeps from a computer, you can plug it in directly to the DSP if the HU doesn't got a AUX input. Sweeps are also more noise immune than RTA/PN.


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

That's the one...

It's a good starting point...

Additional info can be found at hometheatershack.com


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> I'm measuring the L/R response at each frequency and writing it down on an excel sheet. Really old school.
> 
> Every once in a while I will come back and see if my tweaking has thrown the L/R balance out. I normally do this when I have an issue that I just cant seem to cure. Other than that, its all by ear. I guess I could use REW or something similar and measure regularly, but at the end of the day I'm tuning based on what I'm hearing.
> 
> ...


SQ,

My take on this , just my .02 cents...
For 2 days now I have been tuning by ear only...
What REW has proven to me is the curve is suggestive, it has surely given me insight into an area that may have otherwise taken me some time to pick apart...

The one thing I continue to go back and look at is the 1/3 octave pink noise track that I recorded on each side ( driver and passenger) as this shows the peaks I am currently hearing during critical listening.

I refer back to plots of the 1/3 octave pink noise just to see where the major problems were...

So 6300 hz was a problem spot on the plots, it is a common problem for both sides... So much attention has been given to this area during listening sessions.

I did take good notes, not great notes like yourself when I recorded that track but for some reason I continue to reference it during sessions.

In short any track that has given me frequency related results as opposed to just a general plot working toward a good curve has become very valuable.

I have to say the system sounds 10" times better, not bright, very detailed, sub stage seems to blend very well...

Crossovers have changed quite a bit...
Tweet at 4k/ 24
Midrange 710/24-4k/24
Midbass 71/24- 630/24
Sub 71/24

I am only done with a handful of frequency checks and I feel I have a few problems yet to address but about a 100% improvement overall ...

T/A is very close as well, maybe a click here or there...
But seems the ear is still a very good tuning option...


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

BTW,

Has anyone located the track SQ mentioned with 1/3 oct pink noise R/L by Chesky?

I couldn't find it anywhere, but Chesky does give some of his tracks some odd names???

Anyone have anything helpful in this area other than the one I already posted??


----------



## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> SQ,
> 
> My take on this , just my .02 cents...
> For 2 days now I have been tuning by ear only...
> ...


Once I got my baseline curve dialed, I have spent the last 2 weeks tuning, then fine tuning, and now, I have only made some tweaks to the TA over the last week. All by ear. My TA has even improved from the moment it "snapped' into place. Vocals are tight and centered.

One thing I found out, is I had way too much differential on my TA. I was at a 2ms diff between left/right, now I am at 1.55ms. I thought I had it dialed a few weeks ago, but with help from primarily sqnut and hanatsu, I went at it with gusto and learned some things, after measuring carefully for distance and setting a baseline TA. I was having image "drift" on certain music and was chasing EQ balance settings, when in actuality, it was a TA issue the entire time.

I brought my laptop from work for the weekend, I really want to grab a system response measurement now that I am very, very, very happy with my sound.

I guess once I got all into the REW phase of testing, looking at graphs, etc., I forgot one thing. To go back and really LISTEN what was going on. To stop trying to interpret too much from the graphs, and TRUST my ears again. It worked.


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

for the Hell of it here are my T/A settings...
i know they are vehicle specific and driver specific but they may get someone in the ballpark for the same type of vehicle...

2013 toyota tundra db cab
driver side passenger side
tweet/2.40ms tweet/.45ms
midrange/2.10ms midrange/.30ms
midbass/1.55ms midbass/0.00ms
sub / .95 ms

frequency recognition may take a while but im impressed with the progress once i quit studying the damn plots... im sure once i have a sound that suits me i will remeasure and see what it looks like and identify things i cant hear...


----------



## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sqnut said:


> It doesn't. I TA before I eq, a lot of people do it the other way. Both ways work.


I TA after EQ.


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

ive been trying to stay in a state of eq and t/a and it seems level settting plays into it as well...

but its like a little circle, touch one and check the others, repeat, repeat...


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> ....but its like a little circle, touch one and check the others, repeat, repeat...


spot on . Everything is connected.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

therapture said:


> I TA after EQ.


Yeah you and just about everyone else. 

But seriously, it doesn't make a difference what you do first. Set TA and then eq for L/R and chances are you would have caused some phase shifts would need to go back to the TA to tweak a bit. Set eq and then set TA and you may find you need to re-tweak the eq you so carefully set.....bottom line you're going to go back and forth between your eq and TA a lot. So what you do first is a bit moot.


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> SQ,
> The one thing I continue to go back and look at is the 1/3 octave pink noise track that I recorded on each side ( driver and passenger) as this shows the peaks I am currently hearing during critical listening.


The point is that REW could show you a dip of 3db at 400 hz and you may actually need this dip to keep the sound clean. So that you don't have the grainy, stretched vocals.

A 2db peak at 500 hz may actually help with clarity in the vocals and so on. If REW shows you a dip or a peak, try boosting or cutting a bit at those frequencies. Hear how it impacts the sound. If it doesn't get noticeably better, let it be. Correcting for every dip/peak will only lead you towards a flat response, which is basically a starting point. 



sbaumbaugh said:


> I refer back to plots of the 1/3 octave pink noise just to see where the major problems were...
> 
> So 6300 hz was a problem spot on the plots, it is a common problem for both sides... So much attention has been given to this area during listening sessions.


6-8khz is the range you use to control sibilance. This range also has the higher end harmonics of vocals, brass instruments and cymbals. Sibilance and a touch of brassy sound are the result of this range being hotter than it should. 



sbaumbaugh said:


> I did take good notes, not great notes like yourself when I recorded that track but for some reason I continue to reference it during sessions.


I'm taking mental notes as I hear the sound and making corrections accordingly. I was just trying to explain a typical tuning session for me. Eventually you will tune something like this too. There are two things you have to lock in place, before you mostly tune by ear. First is the ability to pick a defect and then know which frequency / set of frequencies is causing the problem. Measuring things is a good way to start, but you will eventually move beyond that. 

If you keep at this hobby, save your setting of today and then compare with where you are 6 months from now, then a year from now, then 2......get a good ref point. Maybe a 2ch at home or a good pair of cans etc. You're doing really great.

Arun


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> for the Hell of it here are my T/A settings...
> i know they are vehicle specific and driver specific but they may get someone in the ballpark for the same type of vehicle...
> 
> 2013 toyota tundra db cab
> ...


Try reducing the delay between the drivers. Currently you have:

Tweeters - 1.95ms
Mids - 1.8ms
MB - 1.55ms

Allowing for a really wide cab and the fact that drivers mounted higher will have greater PLD, measure actual distance to each driver. Left ear to left side drivers and vice versa. Then calculate the PLD between each set of drivers. Based on current settings the PLD are:

Tweeters - 26.5"
Mids - 24.5"
Midbass - 21"

Check these against actual PLD's. Rapture had the same issue, maybe he can elaborate a bit on how the sound changed by reducing delay between the drivers.


----------



## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sqnut said:


> Try reducing the delay between the drivers. Currently you have:
> 
> Tweeters - 1.95ms
> Mids - 1.8ms
> ...



Oh yeah I did. 

The first thing that I noticed as I got closer in TA differentials, after measuring carefully and going to a new distance based setting, was that different types of music that seemed to have a different center image, tightened up and all "came together" in a much tighter focus point. I was CONSTANTLY having my image drag right a 5"-6", it was very irritating. 

The next thing was the midbass "kick" would want to be in my lap or between my legs on heavy midbass electronica, instead of the middle of the dash. After tightening TA differential, that also centered up.

Thirdly, vocals got so sharp and defined at the image point, that it sounded like I went from fuzzy, cheap tweeters, to high end tweeters. 

It's kinda' like, having too much differential, was putting the speakers out of phase with each other, and the center focus got fuzzy, even when centered. I guess they actually WERE out of phase eh?


I was all the way up to a 2.0ms difference at one point, after I got on the right path (thanks again guys)...my system gained another big level of SQ.

For fun, I went back to my "old" settings on TA....holy ****, they SUCK. Don't be afraid to make some big swings in TA based on proper distance measurements, then fine tune from there, there is a "good spot" in TA differential, then there is a HOLY CRAP THAT SOUNDS GREAT setting that will make your ears jizz.


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> Yeah, that's a good instruction video on how to use the RTA function. As Erin mentions in the vid, you will not be able to use any of REW's more advanced functions as waterfall/decay/phase domain (GD)/impulse/distortion if you go with RTA/Pink Noise. If you can, run sweeps from a computer, you can plug it in directly to the DSP if the HU doesn't got a AUX input. Sweeps are also more noise immune than RTA/PN.


thank you Han,

i plan to start this next process after i get a better handle on what im seeing in the plots and how to read them a bit better...

once i get consistent results from the pink noise measurements i think i will be more comfortable going to next step...

reading a waterfall graph ought to be interesting....

but i have already run my RCA to my aux 2 on the h800...


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

therapture said:


> Once I got my baseline curve dialed, I have spent the last 2 weeks tuning, then fine tuning, and now, I have only made some tweaks to the TA over the last week. All by ear. My TA has even improved from the moment it "snapped' into place. Vocals are tight and centered.
> 
> One thing I found out, is I had way too much differential on my TA. I was at a 2ms diff between left/right, now I am at 1.55ms. I thought I had it dialed a few weeks ago, but with help from primarily sqnut and hanatsu, I went at it with gusto and learned some things, after measuring carefully for distance and setting a baseline TA. I was having image "drift" on certain music and was chasing EQ balance settings, when in actuality, it was a TA issue the entire time.
> 
> ...


interesting... once you get a good system response plot, it would be good to understand your process and see the result based on what your ear was hearing and what was measured... i think you are light years ahead of me but good to know i am on the right track...


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> Yeah you and just about everyone else.
> 
> But seriously, it doesn't make a difference what you do first. Set TA and then eq for L/R and chances are you would have caused some phase shifts would need to go back to the TA to tweak a bit. Set eq and then set TA and you may find you need to re-tweak the eq you so carefully set.....bottom line you're going to go back and forth between your eq and TA a lot. So what you do first is a bit moot.


this area of tuning is truly chicken or the egg to me at this point...

i certainly understand both concepts, but as both Han and yourself have taught me.... this is not a " one size fits all" kind of sport... so eventually i will fall into my own rhythm and form my own opinion...

but for now it seems its an interesting circle of changes brought on by change itself...


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> I'm taking mental notes as I hear the sound and making corrections accordingly. I was just trying to explain a typical tuning session for me. Eventually you will tune something like this too. There are two things you have to lock in place, before you mostly tune by ear. First is the ability to pick a defect and then know which frequency / set of frequencies is causing the problem. Measuring things is a good way to start, but you will eventually move beyond that.
> 
> If you keep at this hobby, save your setting of today and then compare with where you are 6 months from now, then a year from now, then 2......get a good ref point. Maybe a 2ch at home or a good pair of cans etc. You're doing really great.
> 
> Arun


certainly not questioning your tuning session... simply wish i had the knowledge to take better notes, or to know when a note should be taken... but im sure that will come... knowing what you listen for or look for helps me make sure i look outside the box when listening or measuring... so i truly appreciate you telling me what and how you do things... 

this thread alone has turned into my own little Holy Grail for car audio.. there is more info in this thread than i have dug up in a long time...

i apologize if it came across that way.... 

but yes i do have good reference gear, Bose home theater, Event Studio monitors in the studio.... i also like to monitor on what i like to call... less than or equal to the average listener gear.. some Sony's of questionable quality...
numerous sizes etc... if it sounds good on my monitors, but bad on the sony's the mix may not transfer to the intended listener or client correctly... so i try to monitor at all price points...

the difficult thing about this is, i can create a great mix, or good mix... but creating a great curve in car audio is quite a bit different... 

that would be a whole nother thread....


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> Try reducing the delay between the drivers. Currently you have:
> 
> Tweeters - 1.95ms
> Mids - 1.8ms
> ...


SQ...
not sure i follow some of the basics...
PLD??

how would i apply the overall PLD?

best method for the perceived result??

remember if not for spell check i would be a complete moron... but T/A is a physical adjustment for driver location compared to listener location?

so im confused as to how if my ears dont move other than a nominal inch or two here and there, how is there any fudge factoring ?

is there more to T/A? other than the physical?

maybe a crash course on T/A is in order???


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

therapture said:


> Oh yeah I did.
> 
> in TA differential, then there is a HOLY CRAP THAT SOUNDS GREAT setting that will make your ears jizz.


LOL!!!

i think this is illegal in Pennsylvania.... The Law states " NO EAR JIZZING"

just adding some humor... but i know exactly what your talking about...

i guess the best way to describe it is, if you guys are in college with T/A...
im in second grade.... physically i think i understand it, acoustically in my truck im not sure what other factors to take into consideration or how to apply those figures to my current T/A physical measurements, i do know when it sounds lined up and in acoustic phase to me...


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

PLD = Path Length Difference

Let's say your left tweeter is 32" from your left ear and the right tweeter is 44" from your right ear. That gives you a PLD of 12" between the drivers. Hence the delay between the tweets would be ~ 0.88ms. So on for the other drivers. Do a physical measurement and set delays between drivers accordingly.


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

hmmm..... 

ok... so i would be setting delay between tweets, then midrange, then mid bass?

as opposed to everything be delayed based on my current passenger side mid bass that is set to 0.00ms?


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

It should fall into place once you set your TA. Measure the distance to each driver and set the furthest to 0 delay. Set the delay for each driver by measuring the PLD from the furthest driver. Let's say that your far MB is the driver furthest from you. Now if the far MB is 47" and the sub is 32" you would delay the sub by ~1ms. Set each driver this way and the delay between drivers will fall into place. See if this improves the TA from where it's set currently.


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

ok will do...

i will re-measure tomorrow and post the information and measurements ASAP...

i think thats how ive set it up already, but will confirm it none the less...

stay tuned....


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Remember left ear to left drivers and right ear to right side drivers. We will compensate for the size of your head down the line.


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Got ya...

Some days I have a big head others not so big...
But that depends on my mood...
That may not apply here...

Humor!!!

But I understand...

Next hour or so I should have measurements...

This sounds new and interesting...


----------



## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

I re-did my TA a couple weeks ago based on pure physical measurements just as sqnut described a couple posts above. I had 50% more differential (PLD) between sides than I should have, based on those measurements. Once that baseline is there, then you just fine tune.

Also, just go nuts a bit, get the physical measurements converted to time delay, then grab each front channel and work delay higher/lower in .1 or .2 ms steps just to see what happens and where the image moves. You will find some interesting changes occur that may even seem counter intuitive.

Here is my take, with my limited knowledge...sound is a wave...with peaks and valleys in the wave form that correspond to "bands" in the sound field as it radiates away from the speaker. Small changes in TA between two speakers affect how the bands arrive at your ears, whether you catch the peak or the valley of the wave. Even if the speakers are very close in actual time alignment, if the right side sound hits your ears with the "valley band", and the left side with the "peak band", you won't get a perfect center image, it will cancel out somewhat, be fuzzy, or pull to one side or the other. You need to get the peaks and valleys to align with each other, at your ears. In reality, now we are talking about phase as well, but I guess the two are directly intertwined.

I think that's why I was having issues, it seemed my TA was spot on, for SOME music. Then a different song or style of music would not be centered, it would pull to one side (seemed to always, always be the right) and lose focus. That was at a 2ms PLD. Physical measurements of path lengths got me in the ballpark, then it was just using TA in small increments to get the peaks and valleys aligned for a very tight, crisp center image.

I hope I got that correct in some way, reading it, I may just add confusion to the mix :blush: In the end, changing the time alignment IS changing phase, the two things are closely related and cannot be separated.


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> I think the tilt is way too steep, your last plot shows a 40dB difference between 20Hz-10kHz, makes me believe that it sounds kinda dull and bass heavy but it's hard to comment on how it will sound without actually listen to the system... Try increasing everything from ~1,6-2,5kHz and up by 10dB or so.
> 
> How do you measure? 1/3oct smoothing is not very informative below ~1kHz, use 1/12oct at least. Too much difference between the channels 200-600Hz, use correlated pink noise to center each frequency in that range. It should be identical, you may to readjust T/A after you're done. My channels doesn't differ more than 1dB in this range with a 1/3oct smoothing.



Han,

You mentioned above " increasing" 
Question... If gains are set using DMM.
To the correct value according to JL Audio manual.
How do I increase midrange and tweet to match up with midbass?
Still have a terrible slant downward that even when EQ'd heavily I can't get it close.

Right now my midbass is without attenuation, should I lower the volume on the midbass drivers to meet up with the midrange?

Also, I have some very large dips on my most recent curve that weren't there before? Can't figure that out... One is about 6-8db at 276hz.

Spent last night trying to flatten out the response between the midbass and midrange with no luck.... 

My midbass drivers are bridged as my midrange and tweet are not.
So midbass is getting 300w , midrange and tweet 150w...
Both sides are amp independent so I would have to adjust for both sides????


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Any opinions??

Would a plot help??


----------



## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

How does it sound? I typically cut the 200-400 range. This range is the bottom end on vocals. If the vocals aren't thinning out, don't worry about the dip. Go ahead and post some plots, but it's what you're hearing that counts.


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Agreed,

It's a wreck...

It sounds like I have a hole...

Went to do the T/A measurements and was going to compare before and after...

Wanted to get my curve flattened out a bit more and it just fell apart...

Warning!!! It don't look good...

Both curves are of passenger side only...

Some EQ has been applied to flatten out the peak around 90hz...


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Here is midbass and sub only passenger side

You can see the area around 80-100hz I've been trying to flatten out...

Short of lowering the midbass volume and sub volume I can't seem to get it to line up with the midrange ???


----------



## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh- are you using a "house curve" to initially generate the REW plot? Maybe I missed that if you are....

To me, and from my own trials and tribulations, it seems you are over EQ'ing and "chasing" the response.

I started over with a new curve several times....


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hello,

No House Curve...

I think I'm in chase mode...

To be honest, I don't know exactly how to generate a " house curve"


----------



## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Hello,
> 
> No House Curve...
> 
> ...


You make your own, and load it into "preferences" in REW. Here is mine, it's just a text file (i.e., "mycurve rev5.txt"....the first part is the frequency, and the second part is the relative loudness compared the band before and after a given frequency.

Set your DSP to a complete flat EQ...record a total system response....then let REW "auto generate" an EQ setting. That is your baseline. If you find you need more volume in a certain range, increase the number value for that frequency or range. Try to make the surrounding bands not too far a gap, so you won't end up with big peaks and dips.

20 10
25 12
33 10.5
40 10
50 9
60 6.5
70 4.5
80 3.5
90 2.5
100 1.75
150 1
200 1
500 2
800 2
1200 2
1500 2
2200 1.75
2500 1.75
3000 1.50
3500 1.50
3800 1.50
5000 1.25
6500 1.25
9000 1.25
10000 1.25
12000 1
15000 1
20000 1


----------



## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Especially for us noobs to DSP tuning, a house curve can make a HUGE difference in being able to arrive a solid tune.


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

I think I understand...

First of all I need to have a line out of the PC correct?

Then I need to input all the information manually?

Or does REW do this automatically?

I have only been running pink noise to work on my response..

So far I've been close but no dice...

Is there a help file on each step I need to do to generate a house curve?


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Here's what I use as baseline. Derived those from careful listening and testing for a week or so, one HC for each side. The image tends to drag slightly to the right at higher frequencies so the far side needed a little bit more attenuation, at least it did in my two cars. Note that it might not be ideal for all setups and installs. But try it out and see how it sounds 

You write a .txt file like this;

Frequency SPL


Ex: 

20 10
50 5
100 0

This means 10dB+ at 20Hz, 5dB+ at 50Hz and 0dB relative SPL at 100Hz. Just load the file into REW by going into preferences and "house curve". Use autoEQ in the "EQ" tab to generate a set of filters, enter those values in your DSP.

View attachment hana3_hc_left.txt


View attachment hana3_hc_right.txt


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> I think I understand...
> 
> First of all I need to have a line out of the PC correct?
> 
> ...


Here's some good reading.... House curve: What it is, why you need it, how to do it! - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

Use REW sweeps instead of pink noise to measure system response, something that hanatsu and sqnut made me do 

You can actually download pre-made curves....I based my original on one of hanatsu's, then ended up tweaking it/revising it until I am on revision5 (and very happy now).

Look under the preferences tab of REW....there is a housecurve section, you just point it to the location where the text file is stored. You can even copy and paste the above text I posted into a text file. Just try it out. It's easy to do, and easy to change if you don't like it.

You can add points to the curve at whatever frequency you want to adjust, just don't go crazy, mine is actually fairly large already. Once you take the flat EQ measurement of each speaker(using a sweep), then you load the EQ section of REW, set the options, and let REW generate an EQ plot that you input to your DSP.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Like you see, the numbers are arbitrary, they are relative to the frequency before and after a given frequency. You see mine are all positive, and hanatsu's are negative. That is not important, its just the GAP between numbers that matters.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thank you guys very much...

I apologize for being such a moron...

Was hoping to accomplish quite a bit with the Fr measurements...

But it seems to be getting worse...

So, excuse me for being a little slow...

But, what I really need to do is put down the pink noise disc and plug the PC into my aux in port?

Run sweeps of what kind?

Han said keep it at 4 sweeps...

Run total system or each side?

Once that's done I can begin to generate a house curve based on the curves you sent me in text format?

Load them in manually or cut and paste.

Then REW lays out a curve for me and I input that info into my H800??

Once again I'm sorry but after only a couple weeks I can say I have much more gray hair...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

therapture said:


> Like you see, the numbers are arbitrary, they are relative to the frequency before and after a given frequency. You see mine are all positive, and hanatsu's are negative. That is not important, its just the GAP between numbers that matters.


What he said ^^


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Thank you guys very much...
> 
> I apologize for being such a moron...
> 
> ...


The "sweeps" are in REW under the "measure" button in the upper left....justt run your speaker out/line out from the laptop to the auxillary input of your head unit.


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Ok got ya...

So It doesn't matter my dsp can't do negative numbers to that degree?

It's just relative information to generate a curve?


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Thank you guys very much...
> 
> I apologize for being such a moron...
> 
> ...


You can use HC's with pink noise too but use sweeps anyway for reasons I've mentioned before. They are simply more accurate and provide more data 

REW will give you Frequency/Q/Gain based on the parameters you put in, then you enter those in your H800 to gain the estimated FR.


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Ok got ya...
> 
> So It doesn't matter my dsp can't do negative numbers to that degree?
> 
> It's just relative information to generate a curve?


Correct. The numbers doesn't have anything to do with your DSP. the HC is only used by REW to GENERATE the values for your DSP


----------



## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

I was in the same place as you just a few weeks ago, and once these guys got me onto the housecurve and proper TA method...the world opened up.

You are going to love it....


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Ok working on the line out of PC...

Figures don't have anything long enough to keep PC outside the vehicle...


----------



## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Ok working on the line out of PC...
> 
> Figures don't have anything long enough to keep PC outside the vehicle...


Radio Shack...Best Buy...etc...? Assuming your HU has an aux input....


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

I just ran direct into H800...

Ok... So ran the sweeps...

Have the right side curve loaded...

More graphs...

Do I just go manual from here or is there a next step?


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Sweeps only recorded to 200 hz...

I imagine there is a setting and I should run again?

Do one side at a time or whole system response?


----------



## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Sweeps only recorded to 200 hz...
> 
> I imagine there is a setting and I should run again?
> 
> Do one side at a time or whole system response?


Under the measurement window you can set the frequency range....as well as the level, etc. As soon as you hit the "measure" button you should see all of that.

And you run each speaker, then you need to generate the EQ plot for each one. That's why having a 3 way or 4 way gets real complicated, so much data to input.


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Ok...

To start simple, I ran the sweeps on just my passenger midbass...

Now, what tab is best to work under?
All SPL, impulse??

Then... What exactly should my goal be?
Go one frequency at a time , make notes?

Etc???

This is completely brand new to me...


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> Here's what I use as baseline. Derived those from careful listening and testing for a week or so, one HC for each side. The image tends to drag slightly to the right at higher frequencies so the far side needed a little bit more attenuation, at least it did in my two cars. Note that it might not be ideal for all setups and installs. But try it out and see how it sounds
> 
> You write a .txt file like this;
> 
> ...


In the EQ tab where is "auto EQ" located?
I'm in REW Beta... Don't see it anywhere?


----------



## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> In the EQ tab where is "auto EQ" located?
> I'm in REW Beta... Don't see it anywhere?


Main window..."EQ" button....I am at work so I can't get a detailed response...if you go to my user name, and look at all my posts, there is a thread called something like "how to EQ the REW generated curve..." It has all the info you will probably need since I was asking the same questions in that thread.


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Very sorry to interrupt your work day...
I apologize...

Will find the thread right away...

Thank you,


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/144455-quick-tip-using-auto-eq-roomeq-rew.html

Not exactly what you want but I describe how to use auto EQ there.


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1829799-post29.html

Here's how you can import premade filters into autoEQ. If you load them before running autoEQ you can use the manual controls instead of "match target" (which I refer to as full auto) and gain more realistic filter settings than full auto mode sometimes give you.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

So I read the entire thread...
It sounds like I may be in exactly the same boat ...

I certainly understand REW is simply a tool.

Although I have listened to more pink noise than music.

I understand what REW will generate, although it seems it is still trial and error.

So in an attempt to cut down the learning curve, is there one particular thing I should do right when I take measurements tonight?

1. One driver at a time/ 3 mic positions.
Average and smooth to 1/6 gives me good detail.

2. Use Han's curve to compare to or should I actually load some of those settings into my H800 to see what results it will bare?

3. Begin to construct my own curve based on the sweeps I do tonight?

If I work through one driver at a time should I record the sub as well for a basis to the curve?

4. I agree with Han and SQ not to make measuring the only thing I do...
So if possible I would ask for what exactly I should do with the measurements to achieve a successful learning session.

Is there a particular thing I absolutely should do to move in the right direction?

Can the sweeps be used so I can just look at them and begin to fix some of my peaks? Dips are not a huge issue right now as I don't think I will ever boost a frequency....

Thoughts???

And thank again for being so patient...

I'm only 45 and I have more gray hair than I did 2 weeks ago...


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thank you for that Han,

I do appreciate you letting me use your curve...

But correct me if I'm wrong...

Your curve isn't necessarily targets at my problem areas, so should I atleast try to iron out my issues between sub and midbass transition?

I can't figure out how to get that region between 100-200 hz to anything less than 10-15 db...

Your plot is with in 5-6 db....

For the life of I can't figure out why I can't do this.

I cut 80-100hz as far as I can (-12db) I can't go any farther with out attenuating the driver and that actually makes things worse.

Then I have to attenuate the sub and dip seems to get worse around 250-400...

I'm gonna lose hair ....

I think my last couple plots explain my frustration...

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated...

Thank you Han,


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

If I understand you right... the 80-100Hz is too hot vs the 200-300Hz area? Can't you simply use a very high highpass filter? like a 12dB filter at 160Hz, then the respone should be down 12dB at 80Hz. Still sounds a bit weird to me, never ran into such issues before... Run a few sweeps and show me the plots.

Measure 20-300Hz at 1/24oct when "troubleshooting", no averages are required in the modal range.

300-1000Hz at 1/12oct, 2-3 averages might be a good idea.

1000-20000Hz at 1/6oct with 3-6 averages or 1/3oct with 2-3 averages to account for the spatial average.

You have 4 important tabs when using sweeps;

All SPL (observe FR and apply smoothing and averaging here) / Distortion (determine crossover points, find speaker, resonance or vibration issues) / GD (generate minimum phase and detect null and other issues in your system that cannot be EQed) / Decay (to find modal/ringing issues)


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Thank you for that Han,
> 
> I do appreciate you letting me use your curve...
> 
> ...


The excess group delay will display high peaks if there's a null there. Again you need to measure at 1/24oct resolution to get any detail in the LF areas. Think I missed your last plots, I'll take a look.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Ok. That one you might not be able to fix very easily without physically moving the speakers. Probably a modal dip, pretty normal in that range. Take a look at an old measurement over my system. I also have a massive dip, it can be observed in the decay plot as well as shown by the picture below;



And here's the decay plot:


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I can answer more questions tomorrow, almost midnight here in Sweden now. Little tired atm... just measure each speaker separately first and tackle the issues later 

Begin with levels and crossovers to match each set of drivers to each other (left/right) without using housecurves, EQ and stuff. After this is done you shouldn't require enormous amounts of EQ to get good L/R balance.


----------



## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Very sorry to interrupt your work day...
> I apologize...
> 
> Will find the thread right away...
> ...


No problem haha. I just have limited time to explain things...and I ran out of time


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

ok guys,

i got good measurements on both midbass drivers, and midrange drivers...
got to late to do tweeters, and i didnt want to wake up the dogs around here with any high frequencies...

Han,
i loaded in the GEQ zip file which is very nice, thank you...
im using your Han house curve as my template, and i do like the way it looks so im hoping i can get close...

i think its easiest to just upload the .mdat file to my dropbox...

i hope that makes it easier....

http://db.tt/Yii7we3c

thank you again for all your patience...


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

also,

couple questions about the process...

i did read Han's whole thread on this but im confused...

its required to use A/B and then generate an average curve which is then placed at 0db on the scale...

what exactly is being used there?
passenger and driver midbass, or passenger midbass and passenger midrange?

ive done both and when using both midbass drivers REQ equates an EQ that would apply to both... but they would obviously need to be EQ'd differently...

also,
A/B generate has to be done to load a new plot into REQ correct?
or is there another way to load in a new plot??

how is everyone using the EQ filter section based on Alpine PXA-H800?
i have 10 bands of PEQ for each side and 5 bands for each sub mono...

should i fabricate my own set of filters based on my own equipment?
10 bands???


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> also,
> 
> couple questions about the process...
> 
> ...


That thread is a bit of a spinoff of another thread. The A/B and 0dB stuff is another way to match left/right sides to eachother. It's not required to do it that way, it only complicates matters in your case imo. My intention was only to show you how the autoEQ function works somewhat.

Instead of using A/B just use each measurement and set target level at some arbitrary number close to your "average measurement input SPL". It's important that both sides are set to the same target level though.



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

If you got 10b PEQ you can simply remove 10bands in the filters section. (Set to none)

Use the optimize "Frequencies, Q and gains" after that.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> That thread is a bit of a spinoff of another thread. The A/B and 0dB stuff is another way to match left/right sides to eachother. It's not required to do it that way, it only complicates matters in your case imo. My intention was only to show you how the autoEQ function works somewhat.
> 
> Instead of using A/B just use each measurement and set target level at some arbitrary number close to your "average measurement input SPL". It's important that both sides are set to the same target level though.
> 
> ...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I'm working atm. I'll take a look at the mdat file when I get home.

Btw. I thought the h800 dsp was more powerful than a 10b parametric on each side...


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

very sorry Han,

no worries...

the H800 has 10b PEQ per side
5b PEQ sub per side 

GEQ is 30 band per side...

its a bummer... should be the other way around and i wish i could use them both at the same time...

unless im wrong... again...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I read through the manual quickly. It says that it got 31b graphic eq OR 10band parametric on each channel. You're sure that you can't adjust each channel? xD

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

maybe i explained it wrong...

i have 31 band (sorry not 30) GEQ per channel
10b PEQ per channel (side) 

but cant run them both at the same time...

does that sound more like it??

i also have a house curve area with in H800...

im trying to figure out if i can incorporate that also or if it will make me choose between the house curve or the PEQ...

but it looks like i may have another option...

are you familiar with this at all??


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> maybe i explained it wrong...
> 
> i have 31 band (sorry not 30) GEQ per channel
> 10b PEQ per channel (side)
> ...


Yes I know you can't use geq and peq at the same time  

Never worked with the h800 though. But channel and side is not the same thing, you have 3 channels each side + sub. According to the manual you should be able to adjust EQ on each channel (i.e each speaker). 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

If you use the graphic EQ instead you'll be able to use the premade filters in the zip file. Might need peq though, idk yet... but 31b GEQ might actually be more powerful IF you don't have major problems between center frequencies.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> Yes I know you can't use geq and peq at the same time
> 
> Never worked with the h800 though. But channel and side is not the same thing, you have 3 channels each side + sub. According to the manual you should be able to adjust EQ on each channel (i.e each speaker).
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


hmmm...

im in the sound manager now and what i have is,
PEQ per side, ( tweet, mr,mb ) all together, it doesnt let me make an adjustment on an individual driver ie. -5 db @ 250 on the MB driver, it just takes out -5 at 250 on that particular side... i then can take -3.5db @ 250 on the same driver on the other side...

so independent adjustments per side, but not per driver...

and then 5 bands for each sub mono...

is that helping??

i also have GEQ in the dnx9980hd head unit??


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> If you use the graphic EQ instead you'll be able to use the premade filters in the zip file. Might need peq though, idk yet... but 31b GEQ might actually be more powerful IF you don't have major problems between center frequencies.
> 
> i think i may have some problems... GEQ bands dont seem to line up as well as the PEQ bands...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

From the manual;

"" The graphic equalizer allows you to modify the sound using 31 bands each for the front (left and right), rear (left and right) and center speakers. An additional 10 bands are available for the subwoofer. This allows you to customize the sound to suit your taste""

If imprint EQ is active you might run into these limitations. But I'm just guessing now...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Same should go for the PEQ but the manual is kinda vague...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

understood,

i have the manual open and the processor running...
imprint eq is not active at this time...
GEQ is only (left AND right ) or ( left OR right ) linked or unlinked...31 total fixed band options...

PEQ is the same (l OR r) or (l AND r ) but having only 10 total 31 adjustable eq band options....

the manual is vague and barely touches on the topics with any detail...

but .. i definately wont let give me 10 bands for tweet and then 10 more for midrange and so on... seems like once i use up the 10 im done...

im killing you arent i??? im sorry i cant find a better way to explain...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Just stick to the 31 band GEQ per channel. If you only get 10 PEQ bands per side, shared between mid bass, mid and tweeter, it's not going to be enough.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Well I tried the EQ setting Req spit out...

Using GEQ...

That didn't sound very well balanced,
Seemed to pull left quite a bit.

Highs seemed a little dull, but seems to have good midbass presence.

I then tried using just PEQ and simplifying the curve a bit for the passenger side and then tuning the driver side by ear to get everything centered..

That doesn't sound to bad to start out with...

But can't say that it i have made any real progress..

I think I'm fishing for a remedy at this point...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Tried T/A again after applying EQ?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Working on that now...

It's moved over a bit but sounds like have a hole in it and somewhat lifeless...

If you get a chance to look at the .mdat file when you get home
Maybe you can tell me if I'm better off working with crossovers a bit more.

I was thinking of trying a shallow Q shelf or a very high Lp crossover on the midbass ??


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Ok. Took a look at the mdat file.

The driver side midbass have a big modal cancellation between 155-185Hz. Massive ringing in the time domain at 161Hz, perhaps a resonance of some kind. At 450-500Hz there's another cancellation but that's outside the modal range, most likely a cancellation caused by reflections. You can't boost these areas with EQ.

Same ringing at 161-162Hz right side. Another one at 110Hz, big cancellation at 280Hz pretty narrow dip. 200-220Hz right side got some issues as well, the dip you have in that area cannot be EQed. Don't apply any boosts there. 128Hz got a massive dip in the time domain, might be modal. Might be out of phase resonances as well.

There's a lot of reflections going on with both midrange drivers. Lots of peaks/dips caused by constructive/destructive interference (reflections). There's no immediate issues though.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Have you tried measure while in the car? Are you outside? Some dips vanish once you get in the car. Basically the area above 500-600Hz tend to differ once you sit in the car. Below that there's usually no major differences.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Holy Geez...

Do I have any frequencies that look good??

Hmmm???

It's sealed up good...

What is your best recommendation?

Measuring anymore seems a bit pointless until I address each area and see if I can come up with a fix...

Short of IB I can possibly re- aim the midrange drivers but midbass at 8" ...
No where to move those...

If you give me directions on what to do I will get right on them...

Thank you Han for taking a look at that for me...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Hate to say it but imo you can't fix those issues in the 150-300Hz area without changing the install. Changing midrange drivers to cone drivers that can be run down to 160-200Hz and relocate them to sail panels or something might fix the issue. It's a problem area in most cars (including mine) - it's related to the inner dimensions of the car, location of the speakers and location of the listener.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Have always measured outside of the truck...

Even took out all the plastic mats, put heavy foam back carpet over the center console to see if that would change anything for the better...
It didn't...

Has to be in the doors?

When I get back home I will take the doors apart and see if there is anything I could add or do better to deaden things up...
Even did the inside door panel skin...
2 layers of Rammat ... One layer ensolite...


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Holy Geez...
> 
> Do I have any frequencies that look good??
> 
> ...


You'd be surprised to see how many cars have issues with their system. A car is a horrible place to reproduce sound. The best we can do is to compromise most of the time, the trick is to find the best compromises. Since dispersion at lower frequencies basically is 180 degrees around the drivers, reaiming them won't matter. It's the reflections that makes everything look like a mess in the midrange. I'm no fan of midrange domes in a car, they have a different dispersion pattern and they cannot be used as low as 160-200Hz. If you want help in finding a good compromise with your current install then we can still help you


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Ok..

I mean I'm not unhappy with the general sound so that's a plus...

It may not be Competition worthy until I change out the midrange drivers.

But is it possible to gain some level of superior quality sound given all that is available?

Should I just tune it by ear and quit shooting for the smooth curve?

Smaller midbass driver? 6.5"

Get into building model boats and stick them in a bottle just came to mind...


----------



## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Understood...

Given what I have and how it is installed what should I do?

If you give me the steps I will follow them ...

Short of selling the Truck...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Have always measured outside of the truck...
> 
> Even took out all the plastic mats, put heavy foam back carpet over the center console to see if that would change anything for the better...
> It didn't...
> ...


Try to do a some sweeps while holding the mic at each ear while sitting in the car. Try this before anything... listen to a slow sweep, does it actually sound like these frequencies are severely attenuated?


----------



## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

To run a slow sweep just set the freqrange to 80-400Hz and set the length to 1M.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Ok I can do that from the hotel tonight...

More to come on that one...


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Understood...
> 
> Given what I have and how it is installed what should I do?
> 
> ...



From personal experience, I think you need to reset and try some KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) method to get you into solid baseline.

Here is a simplified method I used to get me into a good spot.

1. Load up a housecurve (try mine, try one of Hanatsu's, anything).
2. Set all EQ sliders to flat.
3. Measure system response per speaker.
4. Generate an EQ plot from REW.
5. Use your 31band EQ and set levels according to REW. You have seperate EQ per channel correct?
6. Set Time Alignment based on distance, then fine tune it up or down to move it left or right AND to get the midbass the strongest. Once you have strong midbass, keep the same differential between sides at first since this is based on distance and should be fairly close. To move the image left or right, increase/decrease both sides by the same amount to "steer" the center image.

That method should get you sounding good, if not, try a DIFFERENT house curve, or modify your existing to add more highs/lows/etc. Load that modified curve into REW and look at the predicted response, try to make the predicted response curve be smooth without any large bumps or dips. If you get a curve loaded and EQ'ed that is close to what you are after, you won't have very many EQ changes to get it sounding better. If you find you need to drastically alter EQ settings after the initial REW curve is loaded, you probably should try another/or modify the curve and let REW generate another plot for you. It should sound decent with the initial inputted curve.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Sounds very reasonable...

Thank you for that...

Going to probably take a listen and see if I can fabricate an idea of what my curve might look like...

Graph it out and see what happens...

I'm going to take some measurements as Han suggested and see what those look like...

I have Hans curve loaded right now and have been tinkering with it as I drive through Ohio and it sounds fairly decent ...

A little hot on the top end but not overly bright..
Just very well detailed..

A little fat on the bottom but it seems to suit the truck fairly well...

I guess I'm not to worries about all the dips In the response...
They are fairly difficult for me to pick up on...

But maybe I'm used to a huge hole and I'm immune to it...

Even listened to real music today...

Put the pink noise away for a while, it's wearing me out...


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> I guess I'm not to worries about all the dips In the response...
> They are fairly difficult for me to pick up on...
> 
> But maybe I'm used to a huge hole and I'm immune to it...
> ...


I chased dips all day long as well in the beginning, but finaly I "got it" that cars are going to have them, and there is almost nothing we can do tocure them all.

Real music FTW!

Good idea, stop testing and enjoy the music. Forget about the RTA for a bit and just let your ears guide you. You will still make changes, but make them based on real music and day to day experiences. If you need some more treble/high end ambience/sharpness, try working 2khz and 7khz on a wide Q, or if in graphic EQ, work the ranges to each side of those as well, in the high ranges, you need a wide range. I run 2k and 7k on a Q of 1, and all it takes is +/-1db to make a noticeable difference in overall sound. Try it out (by ear) and see what happens as you move those two ranges up or down.

I have not adjusted anything, except by ear, in a few weeks, and I am loving my sound. I did run an REW set of measurements the other day, and boy, was I surprised at what I saw...if I was going by what I saw, I would think my system was horribly wrong...but it sounds kickass and impresses everyone that listens to it. I don't compete. It's MY stereo, and I like what I hear. It's not boomy or harsh, female vocals give me wood, there is crispness and detail across the range, and the bass is articulate and defined.

Enjoy!


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thank you for all the help...

For now while traveling I've done just that...

This is what I'm doing at this point..

Still using Hans curve and my last set of Stellar Results...

I graphed out the EQ needed to obtain the "Han" curve...

Simplified it a bit to fit into my PEQ 10 band max...

Since Hans curve is based on same EQ for both sides, I've just linked both sides together in the H800 Commander...

Graphed out the major peaks, set them as close as I can given the PEQ band options, set a tight Q of 5 ( .5-5 @ .5 increments)

While driving I've checking at, above and below target frequencies to see what the result and image position is....

Then T/A , Rinse... Repeat...

I've decided to focus on major peaks and dedicate 4 PEQ bands to mid-bass, 3/ Midrange, 3/ Tweet...

My plan is this, ( a bad plan is better than no plan at all)

1.Make it sound as good as I can by ear.
2. Measure Each Side / with Sub with those settings .
3. Compare against the " Han " curve ... Be nice if I was a little closer...
4. If I'm lucky I may be able to get very close by tuning crossovers a bit after seeing the results, Attenuating drivers a bit if needed , T/A..

Hell I'll kick the dog and bathe in holy water if that gets me in the ball park...

Your " Keep it simple" statement made me think ...

Given all the gadgets we have at our disposal...
Computers, software, Mics, Meters...
As Han said, "My responses can't easily be fixed"

So... I now know what a Mic and software thinks of my huge Frigging investment in time and money... Lets see what my Ears have to say about it...

So.. I plan to measure tonight ... Hopefully, post the results for all to say.." I need my ears checked "

Good plan or bad plan???

Ps... I Love this forum... You guys are the best!!


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Simplified it a bit to fit into my PEQ 10 band max...
> 
> Since Hans curve is based on same EQ for both sides, I've just linked both sides together in the H800 Commander...


You can't set both sides the same and get a balanced L/R response. Something that is essential for a stable and well defined image. 

I would use the 31 bands of GEQ per driver to set the L/R response. Use REW, and spl meter or an spl app on your phone, whatever you are comfortable with. Do this one set of drivers at a time. Eg L/R mid bass then L/R mid etc. Do this balancing an octave above and below the pass band the each set of drivers is playing. Eg if the MB if the pass band on the mid bass is 70-700hz then balance for L/R from ~40-1.2. Below 40 and above 1.2 cut L/R mid bass by -12db each side (I think that is the max on the H800). Do this for each set of drivers. 

Go back measure the distance to each speaker and set your TA. Now listen to music for a bit. How does it sound tonally how does it image and is it a stable image? Is it well centred? Play with TA tome the centre if you need to. Keep listening to music throughout this process. A good way to check if your TA and L/R eq is in the ball park, is to listen to the pink noise tracks. They should all image up around the same centre on a vertical plane. The lower frequencies will image up slightly lower, but everything should be more or less on the same vertical plane and pull L/R. 

This will get you in the ball park. Spend some time listening to music and then let's talk about how it sounds tonally.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thanks SQ...

I completely intend to measure each driver as you stated...

Couple of my drawbacks, I may be wrong but it seems there aren't many people with the H800... 

But I can't EQ any driver individually...

GEQ is ...
31 bands L front
31 Bands R front
31 Bands L rear
31 Bands R rear
31 Bands center channel

I can link both sides for 31 total or leave it unlinked for 31 total each side.

I don't run rear fill or center channel ...

PEQ is 10 bands in the same format...

My thought was to get a better baseline ... And build on that, see how it measures now that T/A has been measured and applied, etc...

Currently it sounds quite wide, very ambient, I can't say that I'm trying to pick it apart at this time, just trying to create a good sound, fairly well balanced decent imaging... 

With any luck I can remeasure tonight, both ears and at my nose, with me in the truck... Complete passenger side/ complete driver side...
Hopefully I can see the affects of the current EQ applied, crossover points etc...

Once i run REQ and compare to Hans curve I should have a good idea wether to use GEQ, PEQ, move crossovers to aid in EQ'ing...

PEQ is just very easy for me while driving and only 10 points I have to work with. T/A has changed quite a bit today...
Much tighter overall... Image Leans just a little left in the lower midbass area... 

Also, I could very well be wrong, but after reading Hans instructions on REQ, I think the second sentence states, " one EQ both sides"

I assume you tweak it from there, but its just my baseline experiment...

Does any of this make sense??


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Having the same response left and right side is more important than having a "flat" curve. THe EQ settings usually differs very much between L/R. Those must be differently set, as I said before - the electrical settings (in your DSP) can be kinda crazy sometimes. It's the acoustical measured FR that matters. 

Used Alpine stuff before, IIRC the "Rear" channels can be used for one set of drivers and the front for another set of drivers. Those are only labels, use the rear channels for your midrange and you'll have individual EQ on the drivers


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Does that also apply to 3 way?

Can I put midbass IIRC on the rear channel
And Tweet and midrange on the front?

I might be wrong but I think I'm out of outputs??


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I think you can do that yes.

Ain't there a basic setup guide allowing you to choose running the DSP in 5.1 or stereo mode?

I'd run the midbass drivers off the front and midranges off the rears otherwise. Then you get individual EQ on the drivers that most likely require it the most.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

From the manual:


> System 1 (4.2ch): Front 2way+Rear+SubW
> System 2 (2.2ch): Front 3way+SubW
> System 3 (4.0ch): Front 3way+Rear
> System 4 (5.1ch): Front 2way+Rear+Center+SubW


You should be able to select "system 2". Then you get rid of the rear/center stuff.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

It also sounds like you don't have T/A on each driver atm. If that's the case, it's a major issue since you cross the midbass and midrange in the ITD range (interaural time difference) of our hearing. The staging should improve dramatically if you set T/A on each driver separately


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Ok...

I do have it set to system 2

3 way front plus sub, but let me bust out the manual tonight a dive into that.

I do have individual driver T/A each driver including each sub...

One question then now that I'm even more confused...

I read your thread on auto EQ like you know...

When we do the A/B generate function and it gives us a curve that imports automatically into REQ, which I did...

That curve is the combination of two curves, ie passenger midbass and driver midbass... Then it spits out an EQ ...

I applied that EQ to both passenger and driver side midbass...

That was wrong I understand...

So in order to generate one EQ for passenger midbass and then generate a separate curve for driver midbass... 

Do I just switch it from A/B generate to... B/A generate??

I don't know how to generate the curve for each individual driver as opposed to generating a curve that averages two different drivers...

Does that make any sense...

Either way, how do I just record 4-6 positions for my passenger midbass and then get auto EQ to open up and that average will be in the EQ window???

It's like it only gives me a new curve if I do the A/B generate???

I'm lost....


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Ok...
> 
> I do have it set to system 2
> 
> ...


I said before that the A/B method might be more confusing in your case xD

The A/B is a relative comparison between two measurements. You can choose if you wanna compare the right side to the left or the left to the right. It can be selected when you do the A/B command (the selection can be an average or any measurement you got loaded) . Like below, this shows how much "A" differs from "B". It's not a combination, it's rather a subtraction of each frequency response's difference. 











If you choose to go with this method you first set one side as you want it (perhaps set by a housecurve). This side will now be the reference (which is "B") in my example. REW will try to set autoEQ to 0dB, or 0dB's difference towards the reference you've selected. In other words, the "reference side" should be EQed first (for instance by a housecurve) then you just measure the other side and run the A/B algorithm, now REW will match the other side to the reference and give you the appropriate EQ settings FOR THAT SIDE.

This complicates matters if you wanna use two different housecurves for each side which I do at the moment. If you want to use two different HC's with more attenuation at one side you must modify the HC file to offset difference from the "reference" HC file... this is starting to get confusing right?


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thank you...

It's a little confusing... But atleast now I now how to apply the Same house curve to both sides if that's what's needed..

It might be a good starting point and then I can just blend them to my liking...

So that does help quite a bit...

I really am sorry, so much information in such a short period of time...

I'm a sponge.. But not a big sponge...

I will do some digging tonight and see what I come up with.... I have plenty to keep me busy ...

I know it's already tomorrow in Sweden so have a good night,

Again thank you for your patience....


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Sorry to jump in here, but I'm just getting started with REW. I'll make my own thread in a bit but I just took my first PN measurement. I have a HC loaded up and am looking for the spot in REW to get it to actually generate EQ settings. I also have no idea what settings/options I should set in the EQ section.

I clicked...uh...something...I think MAYBE it was to make it generate EQ settings and it said something about something being more than 10db away from where REW thinks it should be or something...I'll look again in a sec when REW quits doing WTFever it's doing. lol

Any suggestions?


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

In this thread Han posted a link to a thread he did for using the EQ..

REW auto EQ...

Also you tube has a good video Erin did under hardisj

This crazy thread has to have the answer to many of your questions...

Han is gonna kill me if I ever go to Sweden...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Deadpool_25 said:


> Sorry to jump in here, but I'm just getting started with REW. I'll make my own thread in a bit but I just took my first PN measurement. I have a HC loaded up and am looking for the spot in REW to get it to actually generate EQ settings. I also have no idea what settings/options I should set in the EQ section.
> 
> I clicked...uh...something...I think MAYBE it was to make it generate EQ settings and it said something about something being more than 10db away from where REW thinks it should be or something...I'll look again in a sec when REW quits doing WTFever it's doing. lol
> 
> Any suggestions?


I did the same thing...

But we got it figured out..

For what it's worth, I just got done putting some things together for this weekends tuning nightmare...

Some tips Han helped me with and a couple of my own..

1. Pull up the 2 plots in ALL SPL.
2. Make sure you check mark only the plots you plan to use.
3. Make sure you put the plot you plan to reference as B
So A might be your driver side midbass
And B your reference might be passenger side midbass.
4. Hit generate
5. Uncheck the 2 original curves
6. Make sure the one you generated is checked
7. Hit EQ tab
8. The plot you just generated should be there.
9. On the right little gray tabs 
10. Dsp mine is set to Generic 
11. Next tab, set it to full range unless your doing the sub
12. Little box says like Target Db think it says 75 db by default
Put in 0
13. Hit the set target level... The HC blue line should drop down to around 0db
14. Next filter tasks
15. I am using 1-1-2 I don't like a lot of boost...and the areas you plan to match.
16. This is where I am experimenting...
17. Click match response to target
18. Filters should generate
19. Now... I loaded in a Zip file from Hans thread I think it's on page 2.
Also a bunch of HC there also..
20. Top of the EQ window click the EQ Filters button.
21. Little blue folder on the left, click it and point it toward Hans Zip file and pick one of those GEQ files based on the driver you plan to Auto EQ
22. Filters load then I go to the manual optimization area, bottom right of main EQ window and I only click optimise Gains...
This way it doesn't overwrite Hans Frequencies.
Then you can kind of play with things to move a filter just click manual in the auto or manual tab and you can create a filter or change the Q or adjust gain and you can see in the window the result of your change.

I'm trying to flatten something out that falls right between two frequencies and just meeting with it until I get the best case result...

Please though.. If you catch your hair on fire trying to work this all out please don't hunt me down... I'm working through it as well...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> From the manual:
> 
> You should be able to select "system 2". Then you get rid of the rear/center stuff.


I figured this out,

Went with system 1...
Tweet and midrange had to stay up front
and I labeled the midbass as rear and that seems to work perfect...

Made 3 presets for GEQ
3 presets for PEQ

That was a great Tip Han...

Thank you...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

2 questions..

Bare with me on these...

Along with mic placement facing forward at both ears and at the nose, I've taken some measurements also while holding the mic up against my ear lobe pointing toward the driver I'm recording... As close to each ear opening at the same angle Etc... 

My thought was pointing the mic straight ahead would make sense if my ears were on my face pointing forward... So I figure I will see how this averages.

Initial results are a bit different than pointing the mic straight ahead toward the windshield...

Has anyone noticed a benefit in this area?
Right or wrong?

Also... Is it worth it to average in while the vehicle is running?
I just think... The only time I listen to music is when I'm driving, thus engine and road noise.. Has anyone seen any benefits or downfalls in this area?

Not that I will base all adjustments on that, but I'm sure it weighs the results differently between engine and engine off???


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Thanks! I think I might've blown one of my mids though. I was listening pretty loud and Inaudible Melodies by Jack Johnson came on. When the bass kicked in, I heard the mid kinda snapping like it was bottoming out maybe. I freaked and quickly turned it down but I *think* it has a little buzz/rattle that it didn't before.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

I measure with the mic from three positions, straight ahead, and 45 degrees to each side of center. Then you can average those if you want. Doing it in the car, I face the mic forward in all cases, with the mic tip right by each ear.

If you take them with it running, make sure and at least shut off the ac blower. Depending on your car, you might see an increase in the range of 100-250 hz. My car, with a performance exhaust and 6.0 V8, has a huge fat wide band centered around 110hz at idle, so it makes my reading look whack. Better to measure with it off, you might need a bit more midbass in the 160-250 range to offset that issue, I know I do so that at 45-65 mph, I get the midbass I want, even though it looks like too much sitting still...it's just right when I am driving, which of course is far more often than I listen just sitting still.

Don't use A/B....like han said, that's for a comparison, since you have individual EQ _per channel/side_, you need to EQ each side. You can just run a full EQ plot for each side, and just enter the eq values per side. You need to EQ each side separate so you can get balanced sound left to right.

You should have a different EQ plot for EACH corner, i.e., left front, right front, left rear, right rear, and sub. 





sbaumbaugh said:


> 2 questions..
> 
> Bare with me on these...
> 
> ...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

The Alpine DSP got RoadEQ, don't measure with the engine on 

It's important to measure each speaker, even outside their intended range. EQing the crossover region is paramount for good overlap between drivers. That's why just a global L/R EQ isn't good enough. So if you're using your midrange dome between 700-4000Hz for instance, measure and observe 350-8000Hz (at a lower level of course, it's not the absolute SPL that matters, it's the overall FR shape). The 350-700Hz area should roll off nice and clean with no big peaks and dips in the stopband. 

When I measure around the ears I do this;

For left side, 5 points at left ear and 3 points at the right ear.
For right side, 6 points at right ear and 2 points at the left ear.

I've back engineered this method and perfected it recently. This corresponds most to what we hear in my experience. The left side spread more "crosstalk" between the ears and the right side slightly less. Measure 1" out from the head and about 2" between each point around the ear like a circle. 

Choose 8 Sweeps in the "measure" tab in REW. It will auto average all points then


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

ok guys...

i understand... 

i plan to record very accurately tonight so this is greatly appreciated...


the alpine does have road eq but im not a big fan of it , but i understand not to measure with the truck running, just a question.

i will avoid the averaging plots in REQ, honestly the averaging A/B has been the only way to have a plot in the EQ window. if i just choose a plot, say passenger midbass and open the EQ window, nothing is there, check marked ... must be something there im missing... if i take an averaged plot, how do i get it to show up in the EQ window without doing A/B generate???


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> ok guys...
> 
> i understand...
> 
> ...


With all your recorded measurements showing in main window, select say, just the ones of your midrange. If you have 7 of those, just have only those 7measurements checked. Then hit the "average the responses" button, and it gets you a new plot. Uncheck the the other 7 measurements. Now you have exactly one plot showing in the main window. Do not hit the "generate" for the A+B option in the Controls. 

Now, you hit the EQ button...a new window pops up showing the new average. Set your filter tasks on the right according to what speaker you are working on. Then hit "match response to target", and let it roll. After it's done, you now have the EQ settings byhitting the "EQ Filters" button at the top of that newest window. Enter those into the dsp.

Rinse and repeat for each channel/speaker.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

I want to try a new tune. I am_ very happy _right now with my setup...but...it's very unconventional to me, compared to what I see here. I seem to have an abundance and brightness. My response charts are very hot in the 2k-8k range.

I am going to set everything flat again and measure a totally new way. I am going to use hanatsu's method just posted above, and I am going to aim for a more conventional SQ curve, any ideas? I am aiming to keep my current x-over settings of 75/24db on both high hp and lp. I also want to test a polarity swap on the sub, as well as swapping the Imagine's phase assignments, to see if I can improve excess group delay, is that the right direction to look at?

I'll update as I can, but it will probably be Sunday evening before I can even take a set of measurements, it's just so damn hot here in Texas right now that recording during the day is gnarly tough with no A/C. Not worth it!

I suppose my baseline TA setting should be the same differential as I have dialed in now, it's pretty focused and clearly anchored right at the top center of the dash.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

ok got ya...

ya know come to think of it, when ever i use my Mac i have issues with REW..

my PC seems to handle it fine, and for the last week or so ive been on the Mac.. it also will crash when i disconnect the Mic, and then plug it back after any period of time...

not to change the subject, but i will run the PC to see if that runs any smoother...

i appreciate the feedback, i will try REQ agin on the PC and hopefully something shows up in that window...

one other odd glitch, when you have a plot in the EQ window, why does it NOT show any response below 100hz.... its just flat?


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

not that im any help in this area, but i have been learning...

and the one thing im having fun with right now is experimenting with very odd crossover settings.. not that these are that odd, but odd to me...

not that im dialed in but my Midbass is 125/12-710/24 
Midrange @ 900/24-4k24 Tweet @ 4k/18

im sure this will get better, but its a huge improvement from my original 
71/24-900/24 mb <> 900/24- 4k-24 mr <> 4k/24 tw....

just much more detail, not so muddy... i thought i liked that sound until a couple weeks ago... i got a taste of the good life... and now my brain wont shut off...

quite a bit can be said for tuning with crossovers... im sure your next tune will be another huge step forward....


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## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

I wanted to say thanks to all of you in this thread. Reading this thread made me join diyma. Great info! 

I just put in my 360.3 running active a few weeks ago and have been playing since. It's been a fun ride so far. My neighbors probably think I am insane sitting in my car with a laptop, earplugs (pink noise sucks on the ears), and my Ipad (audiotools for RTA). Never heard of REW until this thread. I'll have to buy a mic and give it a shot. Also it'll be nice getting out of the car. It gets hot in there without the engine/air on. :cwm23:

I'm glad there are people like you all out there. The local shops didn't know much about running fully active. "What, why would you want to do that" they said. Lol

Also thanks for the Dropbox downloads. Very nice!


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Jcharger13 said:


> I wanted to say thanks to all of you in this thread. Reading this thread made me join diyma. Great info!
> 
> I just put in my 360.3 running active a few weeks ago and have been playing since. It's been a fun ride so far. My neighbors probably think I am insane sitting in my car with a laptop, earplugs (pink noise sucks on the ears), and my Ipad (audiotools for RTA). Never heard of REW until this thread. I'll have to buy a mic and give it a shot. Also it'll be nice getting out of the car. It gets hot in there without the engine/air on. :cwm23:
> 
> ...


My local shop has been an RF dealer for at least 25 years....they have built many "impressive" installs...but never have ran anything active. Kind of old school they are, it's all about the bass usually. 

They didn't even know what the PDX-V9 was when I asked how much one was.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Jcharger13 said:


> I wanted to say thanks to all of you in this thread. Reading this thread made me join diyma. Great info!
> 
> I just put in my 360.3 running active a few weeks ago and have been playing since. It's been a fun ride so far. My neighbors probably think I am insane sitting in my car with a laptop, earplugs (pink noise sucks on the ears), and my Ipad (audiotools for RTA). Never heard of REW until this thread. I'll have to buy a mic and give it a shot. Also it'll be nice getting out of the car. It gets hot in there without the engine/air on. :cwm23:
> 
> ...


Altoona??? your practically around the corner...

shops are tough now a days, tough to find a good one willing to think out of the box....

look at me... what shop would want to answer all the questions ive had??
easier to drop in something simple and hope you dont come back for any major problems... 

but they seem to install the Hell out of car alarms!!!

hey anyways, thanks for joining us and watching my learning process...

like watching a Train wreck.... but im making progress.... 45 years old... i only have 30-40 years to get this figured out...


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Anything new to report?


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

just and update,

below are my current responses.

right is green and left is purple...

set up TA using ARTA, used my pxa-h800 mic to the line in on the laptop...

was fairly easy to accomplish with some help from Masswork...

some notes for everyone who is not overly familiar with the software or even computers for that matter....

it seems pretty easy to take a measurement... or so i thought...

but i suggest spending some time to TUNE the laptop, or recording devices.

proper configuration is by far, the most important step in the process.

ive take hundreds of measurements, and a very small handful were accurate enough to use...

ie. the mic may be recording, but so may the laptop internal mic... devices may be listening to the playback, giving all kinds of unusual responses...

i have used 3 different laptops recording from the same position, same mic WITH a cal file.... all soundcards are not the same as we would expect them to be. and thus i have many different types of responses.

some vary by a small degree, in certain frequencies... others vary more than expected.

so... now that i have the laptop configured with all enhancements bypassed, sounds are off, the only mic that the system listens to is the mini dsp, i am getting much more accurate responses...

REW.... still learning... but the manual aspect of the EQ is turning out to be a valuable asset... granted it can spit out all the best EQ settings for a processor with tons of processing power, but i have the PXA-HA800... not on the list of preffered EQ's in REW.... so manually adjusting the filters gets me the most out of the available options that i have... using the Q and frequencies i have available... kind of a given though...

so... my sound stage is getting very close to center, leans a little but im still in the tuning stage... stage height is well above the center of the windshield.
started out in the dash area... coming along nicely...

working on depth from time to time which seems to help my midrange levels... but the perception of depth say from the vocals to the kick drum or snare drum is quite accurate... and height in relation to both seems to play into that as well... dont want vocals below the kick drum .... 

TA on the sub was an eye opener...
some may have their sub TA'd so it hits the windshield... i was that person...
instead , ( and this was a great tip from Masswork, who has been helping me) TA the sub so it hits at the BACK of the stage where the kick drum resides, and you will have the ambience, attack and resonance of the instruments related to the corresponding frequencies... this will likely be another couple ms in delay... but in my very limited experience, this has created much more depth... if my sound stage was 6-8 ft deep... its now 10-16 ft deep...

sounds that take place between a vocalist and the kick drum, sit an area not available before... this has had no affect on the sound thinning out, just seems to breathe much easier... granted my plot below is in no regards something to send off to the AUDIOPHILE museum... but its coming along...

i am probably the worst when it comes to this stuff, but ... i do want great sound in my vehicle, and i would like to do as much of it on my own... so the learning curve has been extreme, in my mind... but im learning....and if your new to this and aspire to listen to nothing but pink noise for a few months you to could have a migraine that seems to never end... but all in the name of fun.....

shawn,


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Thanks. This has been, and continues to be, a very interesting thread. I took a couple of early measurements, but was unhappy with my signal path from the stock HU so I'm going to pull the SPDIF signal out before the stock amp and send it to an Audison SFC which will send via TOSLINK to the H800. This will eliminate both the stock amp (where I think a lot of processing is done) and the Audio Control LCQ-1. This should clean up the signal significantly.

I will also be swapping out some speakers so I'll get back to tuning after all the physical work is done. I'll be coming back and checking out this thread pretty often I'm sure.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

OK, in the spirit of the thread, I'll add my latest measurement from 7-7-13. Red is RH side, blue is LH side. 

I have since adjusted the 3k-10k range by ear to close up the gap since my left side was way too hot and the right was a bit droopy, and NOW by ear, it sounds very centered and the ranges stack on top of each other.

I will be measuring again over the weekend so I will add to the thread.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

looks pretty good... 

can you , when you put up the next plot if possible? a higher resolution like 1/6 or 1/12th smoothing???

would be helpful to know how you combat certain frequency inconsistencies.

i did some work at 1/3 smoothing only to revisit the entire session all over again after listening to the system. 

are you guys seeing something different?

do you guys find it easier to decipher at 1/3 or something like 1/6-1/12th smoothing?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> this has created much more depth... if my sound stage was 6-8 ft deep... its now 10-16 ft deep...
> 
> shawn,


Whichever way you define depth, 10-16' is wow!!! What about width?


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

guys also,


if your willing to give this a try...

collectively this might be interesting...

the one tune i like using right now for depth evaluation is " hourglass" from Zedd

its kind of an odd piece, but very well done IMO... the clock in the beginning and the static in the intro helps me evaluate L/R ...

then the snare drum comes in and should be well behind the ticking clock and off to your left a bit depending on how you have things centered...

the vocals are very sharp and depending on how things are set up she is either dead center or just a bit left of center...

i have auditioned this piece in my drum studio for reference so ... it should be close...

maybe we can collectively find the correct placement if everyone is willing to give their opinion???

just a thought....

might give us a reason to listen to some music???

thoughts??

i can post the tune if anyone is interested....


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> Whichever way you define depth, 10-16' is wow!!! What about width?


Hey SQ,

Width seems to remain somewhat unchanged...

I think IMO width is affected by height..

With the image somewhat high it seems to be well outside the edges of the windshield and maybe to the mirrors on both sides...
The driver side seems to extend beyond a bit further, but TA probably provides that illusion, passenger side a bit closer.

I think the balance between tweeter and midrange accounts for most of the illusion, if my tweeter is to hot it starts to draw things inward, midrange to hot and it draws it closer to the front side of the windshield.

Midbass seems to be a canstant, the levels there are set and seem to provide the body of what the midrange and tweeter need to create depth and height...

I've been tinkering and Masswork has helped me create the EQ and TA .

I am currently using all PEQ and little by little we flatten out another problem area... 

But it seems the more fat that is trimmed off the overall response the more room there is for for everything to breathe.

It's not at all completed but is by far the best sound I've had to date...

Masswork has been very patient and I appreciate him taking his time to help me... I appreciate everyone's help on this and can't believe how much I've learned...


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Here is a 1/12 plot, the previous also was just mids no sub. On this one you can see the sub line as well, mid response looks very jagged, but I don't know how "jagged" it really is. I am a noob in the DSP world but loving it, never had a stereo that sounded this good, and I have room to improve!










EDIT: when I am tuning, I use 1/6 usually for mid and 1/12 for the sub.


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> just and update,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with this. What was your process to calibrate the sound card?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Hey SQ,
> 
> Width seems to remain somewhat unchanged...
> 
> ...


My take on this;

Height is psychoacoustics mostly, humans can't determine where a sound originates in the vertical plane because of the placement of our ears. The brain is easily fooled though, it "expects" that the sound should be in front of us. Basically frequencies below 2kHz can be reproduced by a driver that's placed physically low and we still perceive it as "high" (also because how our ears are designed). So if you mount a tweeter low that's reproducing frequencies above 2kHz you won't have any stage height? Nope, because the ear don't hear the physical placement of the driver in vertical plane. You can actually tune the tweeters so they simulate how a "high" placement would sound, enough to fool the ears/brain. Height don't have much to do with width though, imo.

Normally the stage width is limited to the physical placement of the drivers. The wider apart the drivers are the wider the stage, with modern DSPs and careful tuning we can actually extend the stage beyond the physical placement of the drivers, lots of things to take in consideration though. Reflections can mess things up, DSPs can't "fix" reflections. Consider reflections to be phantom speakers with their own frequency and phase response delayed in time. As long as the reflections occur with 20ms or so you perceive all that sound as one source. Lots of reflections (all car's have those) at the wrong places can be major stage destroyers. 

Also the recording you reproducing might not have much of a stage, pretty common nowadays actually - well unless you listen alot to those audiophile discs. 

Quoting myself;



> Attaining stage width is an install and tuning thing. Having midrange drivers as far out to the sides helps a lot. Heard many systems where the right side extend far out but the left side is often limited to the pillars. It takes careful tuning to get the stage to extend farther out than the actual speaker placements, sometimes it's not possible, especially the driver side is tricky.
> 
> The stage center should be in between the perceived left and right side, this doesn't always correlate to the physical center of the car's interior.
> 
> About staging and sound localization; Humans use different techniques to localize sounds, basically we use difference in sound intensity and time to determine the source of a sound, our ability to locate sounds are also frequency dependent. At low frequencies the sound waves are much longer than the space between the ears so we use time differences between each ear to determine where the sound's coming from, this is called ITD (interaural time difference), at frequencies above 1500-1700Hz the sound waves are about as long as the distance between the ears and we lose the ability the locate sounds based on phase. The brain instead interprets the sound intensity difference beyond this point, this is called IID (Interaural intensity difference). What this means is that we use T/A to center low frequencies and level (EQ) to center high frequencies. What complicates things further is that the frequency response and phase is in relation to eachother, any EQ changes will change phase and since the FR won't look the same from your left and right side the frequencies in the ITD range need to be have exactly the same relative amplitude or the stage will lose focus. The best way to determine this is to measure a system and get it as close as possible and go by ear from there. I can easily hear 0,5dB in terms of centering frequencies between 250-800Hz. I use correlated bandpassed pink noise at 272-330-422-510-670-790Hz (these are the point in my car which the major differences between the channels are centered at), I usually lower the side which the stage draws towards - if the FR dips at this point I rather boost the "weak" side slightly to maintain overall tonality. Having said this, we have another issue - which is a big issue in car audio; Room modes and reflections. Room modes cannot be fixed easily, they are related to the car's internal dimensions relative to the listener's position. You can "move" a room mode in up/down in frequency by either change listening position or move the source (speaker). The modal range is usually below 300Hz or so. The other issue, reflections... Reflections can be a real pain. They can screw things up or they can actually help with staging if you 'cooperate' with them, the big point is that you cannot ever eliminate reflections in a car, an impossible goal. So we should all do ourselves a favor and use them to our advantage instead. Reflections are a bit tricky since a reflection can be considered a phantom speaker with its own frequency and phase response.............


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Might be slightly offtopic but here's some more rambling about staging...

This is how my midrange drivers FR look measured at driver position, IIRC 2x 8 average points smoothed 1/6oct while sitting in the car. 



Notice the scaling of the plot, lots of frequencies in the ITD range ain't 0,5dB apart. (Very important for center image and distribution of the different sounds in the stage)

Reflections occur because the drivers disperse the sound at all directions, the sum of all the reflections and the fundamental sound is the sound power response which is basically what we hear, not the frequency response of a on-axis measurement. It's therefore important to have the offaxis response similar of the on axis response to have an even distribution of sound into all the reflective surfaces. Here's how my tweeter pods measure, the first is my old ones, the other one is the improved version I got. This improvement had a big impact on the stage focus (which is the prime concern to me).


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## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

Got a Umik-1 on the way from Hong Kong. Can't wait to get to play with REW. I'm kinda scarred to see what my first plot looks like (current tune). Prob look like the polygraph from a suspected father on Maury.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Listen to Clarity - Zedd - online music streaming

Zedd ! I am liking!

I use my headphones as a reference, and I aim to have my car sound like them. I'll be auditioning this track tonight and tomorrow, in the car. http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/headphones/0edf909675b1be4d/index.html

Jamming right now, and I am buying the album. Great stuff.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

therapture said:


> Here is a 1/12 plot, the previous also was just mids no sub. On this one you can see the sub line as well, mid response looks very jagged, but I don't know how "jagged" it really is. I am a noob in the DSP world but loving it, never had a stereo that sounded this good, and I have room to improve!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thank you for this, its nice to see and have something to compare to...
it looks pretty good though... i appreciate the tip on tuning at different smoothing instances...

are you using PEQ or GEQ to tune your responses?
if both which do you prefer?


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> thank you for this, its nice to see and have something to compare to...
> it looks pretty good though... i appreciate the tip on tuning at different smoothing instances...
> 
> are you using PEQ or GEQ to tune your responses?
> if both which do you prefer?


The 3sixty.3 is full on parametric. I prefer the PEQ. Being able to lock in a wide Q at the high end ranges is very nice.

As you can see, I needed a lot of work on the high end balance. It's much better now to the ear after some "ear tuning" at several points from 3k to 8k, and I will have some fresh plots up tomorrow evening.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

ecbmxer said:


> I agree with this. What was your process to calibrate the sound card?


well... i'll be honest... we have used multiple laptops, turned everything off with in the system that might interfere with an accurate recording...

i would have to say, the mic IMO is the weakest link... unless it is professionally calibrated by a third party...

so i guess i ask, how does anyone know if they have captured an accurate recording?

here is what i am trying to accomplish as we speak, 

i have many types of studio recording software... primarily for drum recording...

this might be accomplished by using something like garage band, but i havent tried that one yet, but Sony Acid, Logic Pro... any thing really ...

i made a pink noise track in Audacity, (got that tip from Han)

imported into Izotope Ozone... a piece of finishing software i use to apply final touches to a track before mastering...

i notched out 6-10 points with in the pink noise track in areas that i "AM NOT HAVING A PROBLEM WITH" i tried it the other way on accident and it didnt work out... couldnt tell if it was accurate or not...

so... i notched out these frequency regions by a couple db or so, i dont think its possible to be 100% sure something is working correctly when using a laptop, has anyones fan begun to run while recording?

even outside the vehicle, the fan kicking on shows the tiniest blip if im recording ... its there... 

so... as long as those notches are present i feel im seeing something fairly accurate...

i thought it was possible to do this with my PXA-H800... but i decided i cant really trust that either and wanted to use something i controlled and made myself... if you notch out 1k on a dsp.... using say Q=5 in my h800's PEQ...
what does that look like on paper??? how wide is that really... no one really knows i guess... unless you made the notch yourself and saw it in the third party instance... we could argue the accuracy of my third party software now also... but its pretty accurate... i have a second mortgage to prove that one...

so IMO... who really knows?? unless your sitting on some pretty high end equipment and you can triple check your results???

also... im not saying this is the best way to do this... i hope someone has a better way... but its the way i did it...

results.... not done yet... but it should work...

if it does... i will post the track...

does any of my rambling make sense???


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> Might be slightly offtopic but here's some more rambling about staging...
> 
> This is how my midrange drivers FR look measured at driver position, IIRC 2x 8 average points smoothed 1/6oct while sitting in the car.
> 
> ...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Jcharger13 said:


> Got a Umik-1 on the way from Hong Kong. Can't wait to get to play with REW. I'm kinda scarred to see what my first plot looks like (current tune). Prob look like the polygraph from a suspected father on Maury.


dont be scared... i can post my first one if it will make you feel any better...

actually i think i did... i recommend you drink a couple beers first... it will help with the expectation that you might see any straight lines... plus ... this should be fun... let me know when the blessed day comes and i will have one for you...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

therapture said:


> Listen to Clarity - Zedd - online music streaming
> 
> Zedd ! I am liking!
> 
> ...


not bad Huh??

different...but i go through phases... cant wait for my next disco phase..

by the way ... congrats on the 500 Club Header!!!!


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

therapture said:


> The 3sixty.3 is full on parametric. I prefer the PEQ. Being able to lock in a wide Q at the high end ranges is very nice.
> 
> As you can see, I needed a lot of work on the high end balance. It's much better now to the ear after some "ear tuning" at several points from 3k to 8k, and I will have some fresh plots up tomorrow evening.


i think your plots are looking really good... 

question... i hate to ask how it sounds... but it seems when we do get some things right and it does sound good... whats the first thing we do...

push more frigging buttons!!!

im the worst with that... but, how does it sound??

i mean... when the curve looks good, does it sound as good as the curve?

what do you like or dislike about this curve? 
are you using a HC??


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## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> dont be scared... i can post my first one if it will make you feel any better...
> 
> actually i think i did... i recommend you drink a couple beers first... it will help with the expectation that you might see any straight lines... plus ... this should be fun... let me know when the blessed day comes and i will have one for you...



Thanks for the encouragement. 

I don't have high expectations for the first plot was basically what I was saying and don't know how good my iPhone mic RTA actually is. Prob not very. 

I love playing the SQ game. Since I bought my current car I've had numerous different gear and placement setups in it and still changing. Wasn't quite what I was looking for. Getting closer though. Tuning has been exact the same way. I'm sure REW is going to be another fun tool for trying to achieve the ultimate balanced upfront sound (which doesn't exist cause always think I can do better).


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

also... anyone interested...

another very interesting tune just now auditioning is kind of odd...

"hard rock sofa" kind of European club type music... but a great tune for evaluating height, depth and width... if your vehicle doesnt create the illusion of being another 6-8 feet wider than what it is... something aint right....

also, great for checking levels of midrange and tweet... impossible to play this tune just once...

in any case... i am uploading some new stuff for you to guys to check out...

this is the link... in Zedd audio files...

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oj2w2bz2zolbkpw/sxwWAspDaA

the first tune is Rasputin... make sure you turn that up a little bit... but not to much... enjoy!!!


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Another OT post but... Try playing zz top - la grange. Notice the tapping in the beginning of the song. It should sound as it's originating from far center-right. Yello - the race, got much "width". Almost a surround effect to it even without rears.

Make sure they are from the original disc and not the compilations. 

I gotta getvmyself one of thoae dropboxes...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Han,

your one of the most Technical guys i know.... and you aint got no Dropbox???

1. its free
2. free space when friends get one
3. i could be listening to zz top right now 

all if you had a dropbox....


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> i think your plots are looking really good...
> 
> question... i hate to ask how it sounds... but it seems when we do get some things right and it does sound good... whats the first thing we do...
> 
> ...


Yep, housecurve.

Right now, it sounds...*awesome.* I tried tuning to some other curves that had a steeper slope downwards aka hanatsu's revision2 among a couple others, but I needed more energy from the 2k and up range. So I just started playing with the house curve file in REW and after 6 revisions, things started coming alive. My tweets are co-ax mounted on my Imagines, behind the stock door grill, so this may account for the need to have more volume there, rather than the tweets being out in the open and therefore somewhat more present. When I post my current response measurements later this evening we will see what it looks like :blush: My 6th revision of the curve is my baseline, but in actuality, I have fine tuned it so much since then that I doubt it resembles the original very much. And that's what finally got me to a good place, is stepping away from the mic and letting my brain work on the overall sound. I do come from an extensive singing background (plus a smidgen of piano, recorder, and acoustic guitar) so I know music, pitch, tonality, etc., so I trust my ears a little.

I have gobs of midbass, my doors are very well sealed and I have worked my ass off on the door cards to kill resonace (and still have some improvements to do). I had to work very hard on the high end balance, my left leg caused a brightness/reflection that I was finally able to cure 90% with EQ work and leg placement. The plots I posted do not show my current tune, I have been ear tuning the high end balance for a few weeks now, although I have not changed a thing in 2 weeks, I have been listening, listening, listening, and I am very happy right now with it's current state. Vocals are warm but clear, female vocals are beautiful, and drums have all the kick and snap they are supposed to. I think I can get my stage a bit higher, but the width is pretty solid right at the sail panels. The center image is very good right now after all of the TA and level balancing work I have done, sharp and focused.

I have La Grange by ZZ Top as hanatsu mentioned, and it sounds just like he noted! Plus, with those two guys on stage in different places, my image places them apart from each other like they should be, with drums dead center but with some panning as the drummer rolls across his stack.

I could go on and on, but I'll stop gushing. This forum has been GREAT with helping, hanatsu and sqnut, plus a ****load of other experts like Andy, Chris, etc (sorry, too many members to remember!) have made my DSP tuning journey quite fun.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> not bad Huh??
> 
> different...but i go through phases... cant wait for my next disco phase..
> 
> by the way ... congrats on the 500 Club Header!!!!



Ahhh, I had not noticed the header hahah. I think I will be around here a long while. Best car audio forum anywhere!

I have been "disco" and electronica since my teens (think Erasure, New Order, NiN, psytrance), along with some Metallica, etc., plus some classical, old school country, basically a bit of everything!

Try a listen on this: http://musicmp3.ru/artist_bluetech__album_the-divine-invasion.html#.UfO7U50o514 BLUETECH


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

i took a quick listen... that stuff is smooth sounding...
i gotta get the album....
the electronica category is always very interesting ....


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

OK, here is my newest measurement after my "ear tuning" of the high end range. I think I made some nice improvements! I know my ears liked what I did, looks like the curve smoothed out a bit and the high balance is much much closer! There are 1/12 plots. I measured 4x at left ear/2x at right ear for the LEFT side, and 4x at right ear/2x at left ear for the RIGHT side to get the averages.










And here is my previous plot...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

thats looking really good... 
how does it sound overall??

is this primarily being done by ear or HC??


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> thats looking really good...
> how does it sound overall??
> 
> is this primarily being done by ear or HC??



It's based on my house curve, but I have done a lot of tweaking by ear since then. Mainly in the high range from 2k up. I have worked very hard at level balancing up there, again by ear. I took my previous plot and based my changes on the peaks and dips of both sides, using a wide Q beween 1 and 2.

I am very happy with my mids right now, but I have caused another issue with the system response, my subwoofer lost something, and I think the only thing I changed was the xover point from 75 down to 65 hz. Hopefully one of these experts can point me in the right direction...

I have a big dip between 65 to 110 hz now in the full on plot, check out the attached chart. The blue line is my previous full system response...and I was happy with the sub. Now, I have lost some of the "upfront" bass. WTF? I also have attached the excess group delay of the system from mic at left ear and right ear...something crazy is going on with the left side...I bet it's an easy fix. I will re-measure tomorrow just by changing my mid and sub xover back to what they were before (75/75) instead of the current 85 mid/65 sub setting.










EGD full sysem, mic at right ear










EGD full system, mic at left ear


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

The system still sounds great, but like I noted, I have lost a bit of the upfront bass. Only thing I can think of is the aforementioned xover changes.

I think I will measure sub only tomorrow and re-EQ to my curve, just to see what happens. With sub off, the mids are excellent, I have fantastic midbass and my image is spot on.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

just my opinion, but the same happened to me... i took just a little more out of say 100-125hz and it came back to the front...

seems the stronger the midbass got in this area and the more i thinned out my sub the more it fell to the back... i think one of your plots showed a slight difference in the frequency range that would account for sub localization...

i took another 3db out of 125 to get mine back in line...
but that was what happened in my case....


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Make sure the sub and mid are level matched at the crossover point. The 100-160Hz area needs to be lower in amplitude than the 60-100Hz area for the system to sound balanced. When measuring the area where the sub contributing to the overall system response you could have both mids and sub active to shape the response with EQ.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Match the xover points. Next on the sub eq boost 60hz a bit ~ 1-2db. from 80 hz on start cutting the eq so that you hit ~ -12db by 125hz. Beyond this cut everything on the sub eq by max.

Now shut the sub and play only the mids. Your mids should give you 90% of your low end on music that you normally hear. I mean your first reaction should not be that you're missing something. If you want more energy try raising 100-125 a bit. If it's too fat/boomy cut a bit at 200-300. 300-400 will determine the lower end presence on male and female vocals.....sorry went OT

Anyway, once you have the low end on the mids dialed in then add the sub back and see how it sounds. Play only the sub and the far mid and make sure those two are in phase. You should have your front bass.

When you listen to the tones from 50-160 hz they will measure as a slope, but if you listen to them they should sound more or less even based on perceived loudness.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

So, I cut my response starting at 65 because....I changed my sub xover to 65. Real smart there for me, eh? AND, at the same time, I raised my mids to 85 from 75. So it looks I intentionally made the dip there in the response. When you guys say "match the xover points" you mean the same LP/HP, as in , no under/overlap, correct?

And I also saw that my sub LEVEL was lower in relation to the mids, I forgot to set both to the same level as the previous measurement. I like my Imagines at 75hz cutoff, but I either need to EQ a bit right there to knock down the response a bit, they get pretty active on bass heavy tracks, or maybe a steeper slope.

Nice, thanks for the replies, I will get the lappy back out later this morning and have some fun.

edit: see, too much "button pushing" going on as someone noted hah. I fixed my high end but decided to fix something that wasn't broke.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sqnut said:


> When you listen to the tones from 50-160 hz they will measure as a slope, but if you listen to them they should sound more or less even based on perceived loudness.



125-160 seems to my ear a bit louder than the surrounding areas....


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Perceived loudness means a sum of what you hear and feel. So 50hz may be a touch lower than 160 in 'how loud' but its going to give you a lot more tactile information than 160, which may sound louder but not give the same 'feeling'. Lay mans way of explaining perceived loudness. 

If you find 125-160 much louder, play music with only the mids and cut 100-125 a bit. You don't want to cut to a point where you're losing the energy in your low end. Energy and 'thump' are two different things. As a last step set 160. Cut to the point where the sound starts to thin out then back up a touch. Too much of 160 and the sound will be bloated, too little and it will be paper thin.

Having done the above, you may need to cut a bit at 200-250hz as well. If all this causes on overall loss in the lower end, cut 1.6 and 3-5khz range a bit and see if the lower end comes back. [Edit] Now go back and play a bit at 160 in case you over cut there. The lower end has to be tight, if its too fat you're going to lose out on the tightness. 

One reason why it's good, to use a 2ch as a ref point, has to do with the amount of lower end you actually need/get. Its very easy to make bass in a car with an amp and sub. Heck the car itself makes it. Most times we have too much bass. 50-200 is often hotter than it should be. The bass has to have mass yes, but it needs to be tight and accurate. Too much mass and you lose on the tight, accurate sound. This is while listening with the engine off and low ambient noise. You can then have a setting that will boost 50-60 and 100-125 a bit, for when you're on the road.[Edit]


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Well, I have made some definitive improvements in the sub response. I used my own housecurve to generate this response. I was trying to do what you guys said about the 12db drop from 60-125, but I am having some major troubles using REW/housecurve to get me there, I have a curve made that looks good in the EQ window but I am not able to translate it to real world. Now sure what I am doing wrong. So I used my own curve and the sub is cleaner and the upfront bass came back. So I am halfway there, I am going to go have a drive and listen session...and make sure I cut my sub eq from 125 on up to the max, it doesn't look like I did in the chart.

new sub response, blue is the new EQ









full system response, still have some dip from 60-100 hz but it's improved from yesterday...this is the full system taken from LEFT ear and RIGHT ear mic positions.









And the entire system averaged response, taken from both left and right ear mic positions...


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Sorry to dump so much data 

If I could figure out how to get my curve fatter from 60-125 on the sub...I think I would be golden. WIP.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

therapture said:


> When you guys say "match the xover points" you mean the same LP/HP, as in , no under/overlap, correct?


I let the picture speak for itself


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Han,

how much EQ is applied to get your curve looking that smooth?

i realize your install is probably done very well, but would you happen to have a plot before EQ was applied?

in the area from say 20- 400 hz?


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

After some moderate listening...it sounds great. Not sure I want to make that range louder from 60-100. I have gobs of midbass again and the sub is very clean and smooth. I can dial in as much bass as I need with the remote level, and the bass is upfront, unless I go too loud of course. I get some great sound at volume 20-22 and major upfront bass, by adding +1 or +2 at the HU on usic that is not as bass heavy. 25 is "fairly loud" and 28 is about maxed out for anything (call that the drunken jam level).

I know I have room to improve obviously. But damn it sounds good.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

To tighten up the bass you have, cut a chunk in the 160-300 range. In the system response plot, 160-300 is at par with 30-50. That doesn't look right. I'm sure you have gobs of mid bass, but it may not be 'tight'. Try putting your sub on a steeper slope.

If cutting the 160-300 range makes you feel like you have lost a lot of bass, try raising a bit at 60 and 100, like I mentioned earlier. Give your ears a day or two to settle into the sound. See if you can now pick a lot more details in the music, stuff that was getting masked earlier.

[edit] If cutting 160-300 thins out the bass and you don't get it back playing at 60/100, then roll off the response from ~ 2.5-5khz at about 6db/oct. Set that slope via rew and see what happens. Do you get a better sense of the lower end? 5khz to 20khz can be another roll off at ~ 3-4db/oct.

Once you have done this, go back to the following frequencies and cut/boost to see which sounds better.

3.15, 4, 5, 8, 12.5. You may find that a little more cut at 3 and 4 but a slight boost at 5 and 12 sound better. Or some combination like that. The point is that one can use HC to get in the ball park, but beyond that it's about setting things one frequency at a time. Constantly picking what is wrong with the sound and knowing which frequency (within say 1/3 octave) / band of frequencies to correct. [edit]


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Han,
> 
> how much EQ is applied to get your curve looking that smooth?
> 
> ...


Hmm... don't have any plots on my computer here at home. Perhaps they are stored on my laptop in the garage. Here's my DSP settings for sub/mids, they give you a picture of the amount of EQ required.

Sub



Left/Right Mid





The DSP settings doesn't always correlate that much into the acoustical measurements, from the sub there's a massive modal dip around 63Hz causing the response to cascade with the lowpass filter applied.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Curious about using three different types of filters in one network. Something I hadn't thought of. Based on your TA settings, PLD between the two mids is ~ 13" which is normal, but PLD between sub and near mid is nearly 13.5'....


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Don't mind the T/A setting on the sub. Using the T/A on my P99 to control that channel, can't remember why I did that though 

Using different filters enables you to form the rolloff between L/R more similar without having to EQ as much.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> Using different filters enables you to form the rolloff between L/R more similar without having to EQ as much.


Something to try and see how it sounds. I've always followed the simple rule of linking filter to the slopes and keeping filters across the network same. If the slopes used are even order 2, 4, 6, etc its LR. If the slopes are in odd order 1, 3, 5 etc its BW. So with the slope on the sub at 36 db/oct and everything else at 24, I have LR all round. You're going to use a ton of eq in any case .


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

this type of info is very helpful...

im sure you guys have seen many of my plots... it surprised me as to how much EQ is applied before and after the crossovers...

i was aware that these areas required some EQ, i was not aware of how much might be needed to acquire the correct response... just in the sub area alone..
we had said i had to steep a slope in the transition area between sub and midbass... the amount of EQ needed to soften up that steep slope has been surprising...

IMO there is as much, if not more EQ needed before and or after the crossovers as there is between them...

i appreciate seeing the EQ settings on the Helix... it atleast lets me know what it took for you to get the curve to look so smooth...

OT question, how do you like the Helix?
any major downfalls?
how much PEQ do you have available?

you guys know im a bit limited on the H800... its not terrible... but... the .05 adjustments on TA and levels etc... are a real pain...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

0.05 ms? That's about 0.7" increments. My Bit10 does it in increments of 0.02 ms. I feel beyond a point it may just be marketing. Selling finer resolution as better. In most case it will be better but I'm sure there is a threshold level beyond which it ceases to matter,c ause you're not going to hear the difference. Not sure our ears have a phase resolution at 0.02ms. Based on everything else that the H800 offers, I don't think you should look at the TA as a major limitation.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

i agree... if that was the only thing it wouldnt be an issue..

but the PEQ, TA, etc... all add up to a small handful of things that in the coarse of a day really begin to bother me...

especially fixed frequency on the PEQ...

the UI seems so 90's to me given all the other advances in the audio world...

im seriously looking at the mini dsp... the Helix looks to have many good features as well as a great UI...

not that im switching tomorrow... but its fun looking...

which DSP do you currently use SQ?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

I have the Audison Bit10. Currently it's bypassed as there are some basic install issues I need to address, which means time, money, effort. All three are in short supply currently, thanks to other commitments. So right now the only dsp I have is whats in the pio p800. But I've spent about 4-5 years with the Bit10.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

understood.... how do you like the bit ten?

i mean i like the H800... but it seems somewhat commercialized... has good features, but not GREAT features...

i look at the Helix and it seems they have really put some thought into it...

im not familiar enough with the bit ten to know any better, i apologize...

i guess im just thinking if there are better things than maybe i can come up with a plan.... put this H800 in the wifes car ?? i dont know... just thinking out loud...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ed-setting-x-overs-active-components-dsp.html

guys... take a look at this thread... this guy is being told he should be running caps or passives on his active setup, he is using the H800 as well...

hes smoking tweeters, it doesnt make sense that Alpine told him he has to run passives ... on an active setup ... does it?

im all active, no caps.., no passives... am i wrong??


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

thank you SQ for taking a look at that...

what do you guys know about these neo bg3 tweeters?

be a hell of a mod, but what are your thoughts??

parts express has them...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> this type of info is very helpful...
> 
> im sure you guys have seen many of my plots... it surprised me as to how much EQ is applied before and after the crossovers...
> 
> ...


The Helix P-Dsp have the best interface among the common DSPs out there imo. Very straightforward and easy to use. It has no audible noise floor and the software has no bugs that I'm aware of. The Parametric EQ function is really helpful. In the lows (200Hz and below) you can almost set any center frequency. Above that the increments get bigger and bigger. I think it's 1/12oct increments but I could be wrong, basically it doesn't have full parametric EQ but it's still lots more powerful than a standard GEQ. C-DSP offer full parametric I think.

I'm pleased with it. Tried bit1/10, 6to8, H701 as well but I prefer the Helix over those.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> .... how do you like the bit ten?


It's good for what it does. It has it's quirks like tweeters will occasionally start playing white noise along with music . I believe Audion replaced all the units that had this issue. Switch the hu on/off and it goes away. Other than that no real issues. Most of the units out there, offer broadly comparable features when it comes to setting networks, time alignment and eq. 

Some units allow you higher resolution. 48db slopes on one unit while another may only give 36db/oct. TA in 0.02ms another in 0.05ms. Or eq in steps of 0.2 db or 0.5db etc. The bit 10 gives a 31 band, 1/3 oct eq per channel. Some units will allow you to select the exact frequency you want to correct based on what you've measured. Are these benefits game changers or are they pushing into the 'when is it too much' territory? 

There's a reason why eq are set at 1/3 oct. Our ears are designed to tell 'differences' at about 1/3 oct levels. So If my RTA tells me that I have this peak at 295 hz, will my ears pick up the difference between correcting at 295 vs 315? If I were to upgrade my sig, would I spend another $ 800-1000 on another processor? Probably not. I'd rather spend that kind of money to buy me the p99. Why? Cause it's sooo damn sexy..........you just know it's going to sound better...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Sbaum; Always use a protection cap in series with the tweeters in an active setup 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> I'm pleased with it. Tried bit1/10, 6to8, H701 as well but I prefer the Helix over those.
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


You have pretty much tried everything. Did the sound get better because of the quality / features of the processors or because you got better at tuning over a period of time


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

The only thing I can say negative about my RF 3sixty.3 is that I wish it had more than 10ms of available delay.

Of course, I have never used any other DSP....


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sqnut said:


> You have pretty much tried everything. Did the sound get better because of the quality / features of the processors or because you got better at tuning over a period of time


Forgot Alpine 9887 w/ Imprint too... lol.
Had noise issues with the bit10 (the white noise thing). Bit1 worked fine but major downfall was no PEQ. 6to8 have an annoying interface, buggy software and long reset/startup times with a dangerous startup sequence which can possibly damage speakers. H701 worked fine but it didn't have PEQ either. 

The only thing I dislike with my Helix is the 1dB +/- increments on level/EQ. Audiotec said they would do a software update and change to 0,5dB increments though.

Gotten better with tuning the recent years as well so I know more what I want/need from a DSP unit nowadays 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

I appreciate that guys...

Just poking around ...

Not that I plan to change today... But I thought since the wife wants some DSP options I might cut her a deal...

I'm ordering some caps from parts express today...
30uf is what looking for correct?
Any particular part number I should shoot for?

Seriously thinking about the tweeter I mentioned above but a huge mod would be in my future...


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sqnut said:


> Match the xover points. Next on the sub eq boost 60hz a bit ~ 1-2db. from 80 hz on start cutting the eq so that you hit ~ -12db by 125hz. Beyond this cut everything on the sub eq by max..


I cut everything from 125 and up to -24db, the furthest I can go on my DSP. I did add the boost at 60hz and that fattened up the low end for sure, but adding more at 85-100 gets too loud (to me at least) and drags my sub back a bit. I went back to 75/75 xover on a 24db butterworth. Seems you like to use LR on that order filter? I may try that this evening.



> Now shut the sub and play only the mids. Your mids should give you 90% of your low end on music that you normally hear. I mean your first reaction should not be that you're missing something. If you want more energy try raising 100-125 a bit. If it's too fat/boomy cut a bit at 200-300. 300-400 will determine the lower end presence on male and female vocals.....sorry went OT.


 My mids sound great with no sub on, snappy, not muddy. Vocals sound great, male or female.



> Anyway, once you have the low end on the mids dialed in then add the sub back and see how it sounds. Play only the sub and the far mid and make sure those two are in phase. You should have your front bass.


Got the upfront bass back from the xover and re-EQ changes. I really like the sub response, it plays low and clean, seems to be very articulate on fast moving basslines, and double kickdrum "keeps up".



> When you listen to the tones from 50-160 hz they will measure as a slope, but if you listen to them they should sound more or less even based on perceived loudness.


I will do an ear check using a known quality track list...seems to be good though using what I had.


One thing of note...looking at my response above...if you just moved the entire sub plot up (increasing sub level control) 7db-10db, it fills in that missing hole nicely? I have been listening to my car last night and today, and have my sub level dialed in to where my bass is upfront, but I have plenty of output. Could it be that I just had my level too low when I measured my response? Since I had no knob level control while I was inside my DSP gui when I was mic'ing the response...I may have had it too low.


I'll measure again this evening with the level as it is now, I bet I am gonna see that curve move up a bit...


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> I appreciate that guys...
> 
> Just poking around ...
> 
> ...


Why are you wanting to change tweeters? Me and you have a long ways to go in learning the tuning before we need any part changes 

And don't forget to check out the Rockford DSP if you are wanting to change that, it's quite a bit more powerful/flexible than what you have it seems, and it's very easy to use.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Ah... The wife is bugging me because she took a ride in the truck...
Now she wants better sound...
I told her I would make hers sound better but she has to cut the grass and not look at the credit card statement for a couple months...

Needless to say... I have to go get some gas for the lawnmower and get the grass cut before she comes home...

I know, it's to early to start swapping and changing...

Hey... Ps, quit touching all the buttons and knobs...

I thought I was a tinkerer.....


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

If you ordering caps get a 22uF for an 8ohm tweeter, 47uF for a 4ohm.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thank you Han,

will do... got sidetracked earlier, will order them ASAP...

also, checked out the Helix software UI... i think that is really nice compared to the few i have looked at...

i think i will dig into it a little further, c-dsp/ p-dsp
i see differences that seem to minimal... but they do call one of them "high end" 
think its the P-DSP... software must be the same for both, and it configures once the dsp links up?

but it does seem very nice having everything on one page...


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## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

I would recommend the 360.3 for the price. I've had nothing but good things to say about it. 

On the other hand I received my UMIK-1 and am having an issue with downloading the calibration file. I put my serial # into the UMik-1 webpage and an error not found page comes up when I hit submit. Had the same thing happen on multiple PC's. Just curious if you guys have had any issues with this? 
I emailed mini dsp & searched on their forum. Haven't heard back from them yet. 

Is it worth taking any readings without the cal? I'm ready to play!


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hmmm... That's odd...

I've been told they batch these Mics together and issue the batch a .cal file...

If mine is the same as yours i can send you my cal file...

I've had no problems downloading mine...

Let me get my mic and we can see if the serial numbers are in the same batch??


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

my mini dsp serial number starts with 700...

did you go right to mini dsp to the umik page scroll to the bottom input number and hit submit??


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## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

I'm not sure what my batch # is but my serial is 700-0769. 

That'd be nice if they were in the same batch. 

Thanks for the help!


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## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

I attached a screenshot of where I put my serial # in and hit submit. The screenshot is from my Ipad but I was trying to download on my pc.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

did the same for me... mini dsp may not have uploaded the files yet...
but pm'd you... until you get the file for your mic... it will atleast get you up and running... but please dont make any adjustments based on that .cal file..

email mini dsp and they should send yours out asap...


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## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

I got the PM. That'll get me going. I'm glad it's not something I was doing wrong (I didn't think I was that stupid but ya never know ).
Thanks again. 

I just got a reply back from mini dsp. I sent them my serial #. Hopefully they'll hook me up.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

they are pretty good ... im sure they will get you fixed up quick...glad it helped you...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Seriously thinking about the tweeter I mentioned above but a huge mod would be in my future...


Honestly, you don't need to swap out equipment for the next couple of years. Like Rapture mentioned, you'll get much better results from tuning than you would get with an equipment upgrade. 

If on the other hand, you have already been bitten by the upgadeitis bug and you need to change something, I'd change the dome mid range to a cone before I change the tweeter. Logic being, I'm looking to cross woofer and mid ~300 so that I can get 95% of vocals from one set of drivers.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

therapture said:


> I cut everything from 125 and up to -24db, the furthest I can go on my DSP. I did add the boost at 60hz and that fattened up the low end for sure, but adding more at 85-100 gets too loud (to me at least) and drags my sub back a bit.


The adding a bit in 100-125 was for the mid bass not the sub. Cut a bit at 80hz on the MB. 





therapture said:


> I went back to 75/75 xover on a 24db butterworth. Seems you like to use LR on that order filter? I may try that this evening.


By using the same filter across the network I'm trying to keep the roll off characteristics on the drivers the same. See what works best for you. It's not a make or break thing in any case.





therapture said:


> My mids sound great with no sub on, snappy, not muddy. Vocals sound great, male or female.


Did you try cutting the 160-300 hz range? Opinions?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Thank you Han,
> 
> will do... got sidetracked earlier, will order them ASAP...
> 
> ...


Ah... my bad. It's the same software, just more features on the C-DSP. Main difference is the mixer and the PEQ (I think).


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sqnut said:


> I'd change the dome mid range to a cone before I change the tweeter. Logic being, I'm looking to cross woofer and mid ~300 so that I can get 95% of vocals from one set of drivers.


This ^^

Always had better results using cone midranges, playing them down to 200-300Hz. There's a lot of cheap 3" drivers available, some really good 4" as well if you got the space, Sbaum


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

If you guys are messing with different filter types, here's what they do;










L-R have lower Q than Bessel.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> Honestly, you don't need to swap out equipment for the next couple of years. Like Rapture mentioned, you'll get much better results from tuning than you would get with an equipment upgrade.
> 
> If on the other hand, you have already been bitten by the upgadeitis bug and you need to change something, I'd change the dome mid range to a cone before I change the tweeter. Logic being, I'm looking to cross woofer and mid ~300 so that I can get 95% of vocals from one set of drivers.


you guys are right... ya know what started this... the wife drove my truck...
she always thought it sounded like garbage from the passenger seat, and i was happy with that as ive never EQ'd for that seat...now she heard it from the drivers seat, and the **** hit the fan... now she wants her car to sound better..

all that time she thought i wasnt really making any progress... now she heard it from my side and figured i know what im doing ( we all know i dont ) but... i said ... " i will put this system in your car and i will get a new one.. "

and thats what started the snowball down the hill..

but rest assured the moment has passed and she wont agree to overlooking the credit card statement for the next couple months... so... deals off....

i told her, 6-8,000 dollars tops... we know thats an over budgeted statement but if she wanted it she was going to pay for it... every penny... no price breaks because your family!!! now you guys... i would sell it cheap... 

so were good... i know you dont want me switching now cuz im a pain to teach... imagine all new equipment... i would feel bad for you guys having to put up with me again... atleast right now im not a complete idiot... an incomplete idiot maybe....


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> If you guys are messing with different filter types, here's what they do;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this is good info Han, 

i think im a fan of L-R... Butterworth is quite different to me when used, smooth but for some reason seems muddy depending on where the crossover is applied...

to bad we cant do an actual real life crossover / slope analysis...???


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

guys,


this is what happens when you have to many beers...


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...sion/152118-must-read-guru-advice-needed.html 

my brain started working.... thats twice now....


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Just read that, well 60% of it and was feeling inadequate. I couldn't figure out the objective of the looong post and felt even if I could I'm too old to learn new tricks. 

Just as a byline, never tune when you've had a few beers. Alcohol is about the worst for hearing accuracy. Every single time I tuned while 'happy', I had a WTF moment next morning.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

oh... i had one this morning... so i thought.. what the hell i will post it...

i only had a couple, but working on some mic issues to get better TA measurements i decided to do an experiment...

it seemed to work... but... i dont know if i have the fortitude to finish the experiment right now... hoping someone says it cant be done...

but i think it can...

sorry it was so long winded... you know me...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> to bad we cant do an actual real life crossover / slope analysis...???


Actually we can...... ;P

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Well lets to do it...

Can't be that hard... Unless your curve looks like mine...
I would try it but my curve doesn't have any straight lines right now...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Have to ask though, why reinvent the wheel? Whatever you want to do can already be done a different way. It's not about another way to make the wheel, its about learning to ride it.

Something tells me there's more than just alcohol at play there


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Well lets to do it...
> 
> Can't be that hard... Unless your curve looks like mine...
> I would try it but my curve doesn't have any straight lines right now...


Don't get distracted too much by the visual. It's about the aural

Just pulling your leg a bit.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> Have to ask though, why reinvent the wheel? Whatever you want to do can already be done a different way. It's not about another way to make the wheel, its about learning to ride it.
> 
> Something tells me there's more than just alcohol at play there


i agree, im not trying to reinvent it... honestly i was trying to find a way to combine the studio world into the car audio world... 

i thought, i have all these tools available, and i have to find a way to use them in my vehicle... so i tried a little experiment and thought " this might work "

i guess you never know until you try...

just think of the guy who said " i think i will put a speaker in a car"

that must have been a long day for that guy.... problem is i see something or hear something and ask one of the guys here, can i do that in my car... they usually say... " i dont see why not if you can figure out how to make it work"

its like TA ... it still baffles me that we delay all of our drivers so they arrive at the same time... who figured that one out?? hes my hero!!


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## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

Got my cal file. Got to play some. Got a lot to learn. 

Was reading through the post again and noticed that Shawn, you said 
"Also ported w710's... Bad idea..."

I'm just curious why it was a bad idea. Not going low enough since its ported & using an infrasonic filter? Combination of things with the vehicle that it was in?

I have a single 12w7AE ported to JL spec, I got a good deal on it and thought it'd be a good combination of a fairly loud single SQ sub. I have been happy with the SQ of the sub. Not the loudest setup I've ever heard though. I'm not a sub expert by any means though. 

I'm a little at a loss on what a quality car audio system should sound like. I think my car sounds good & others tell me the same but no one around here that I know of has a good SQ car. (Mainly Spl & systems that sound just ok). Where is a good place to go to hear one? Do you Shawn know of any shops, SQ contests, etc in western PA that has a good sounding car that I could go to and hear to compare? I've heard good home systems but its not the same to me.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Jcharger13 said:


> Got my cal file. Got to play some. Got a lot to learn.
> 
> Was reading through the post again and noticed that Shawn, you said
> "Also ported w710's... Bad idea..."
> ...


good to hear you are up and running...

as for the ported sub... 
1. i put that system in a 2013 toyota fj cruiser
2. the ported box took up over 1/2 of the available rear hatch space.
3. that was alot of sub in that tin can, the roof would ripple...and make noise.
4. i am a die hard sealed box guy, love the smooth sound, very controlled...

so ... i did really like the excess bass response... but man... i hated that vehicle.. so that system was in the car about 19 days... i had them pull it all out... traded the FJ back in and got me another Toyota Tundra...

the shop also mounted the midrange on the dash and put the tweeter in the door next to the midbass driver... at the time i was running the DQXS... there wasnt enough EQ in that thing to make that vehicle sound good...

there is an upcoming show here in Erie at Custom Audio... some of the guys came up for the early season show but i wasnt ready, i may not be ready for the next one... but i can keep my ears open... you can always post something specific to an area and it seems many people are willing to give you info on upcoming events...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> Actually we can...... ;P
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


Han,
any news on this?

also back to the Helix DSP...

tinkered around with the software, still like it... 

how does the RTA feature work in the software? have you used it at all?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Han,
> any news on this?
> 
> also back to the Helix DSP...
> ...


The RTA works fine. I tried it and it's straightforward to use. 

Can't measure the different slopes and compare them atm, I removed the DSP temporarily because it was mounted on the sub box (which I removed yesterday).

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Might be able to show you a few tests this weekend 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sounds good... 

might pick up a Helix DSP this weekend...

looks like it does everything i want to do without all the extras...

the UI has got to be one of the best out there...

as long as sound quality is as good or better than h800 i will be pretty happy...


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## mob17 (Apr 30, 2012)

sbaumbaugh said:


> sounds good...
> 
> might pick up a Helix DSP this weekend...
> 
> ...



Just finished reading this whole thread! Wow what a lot of truly brilliant information. Look forward to seeing your progress!

I've ordered the mini dsp mic and have downloaded REW and can't wait to get started. 

By the way, i have a Helix P-DSP and the UI is so easy to use. It's quite small too


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

you read the whole thing???

i feel like i owe you an apology...

if it werent for the people helping me, i would have been lost...

i go back and read parts of it all the time... from tuning, TA, EQ, REW, MICS, its all in here... im thankful for all the guys that helped me through that...

hopefully soon i will have some good looking curves to show for it...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Well guys, it's official...

Went up to Syracuse Ny,

Met with the guys at Syracuse Customs...

Some of the best people I've met in this hobby...

We talked about my issues with my Late PXA-H800..

A great DSP... But a lot of things I don't need and missing the things I do need.

Much more flexible EQ
Better UI

They walked me through the helix DSP and walked me through the UI and the rest is history...

Can't thank those guys enough for putting up with all my questions...

They do great work and have worked on many vehicles in this forum...

They have just about everything from what I could see and ship all over the world... They support DIYMA so hopefully we can help them as well...

Their website is:
Syracuse Customs | Syracuse's Car Audio Experts 13029 

So the empty box will have to do for now...

Everybody knows what it looks like anyways...

Getting everything fired up and ready to go...

More to come...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

also,

the guys at Syracuse Customs sent me a very well written Helix DSP Magazine.

it covers many Audiotec Fischer products and has a ton of helpful hints outside of Helix products... as well as specific functions not covered in the owner manual...

so far its a good read, tons of info on crossovers...

here is the link if interested...

http://www.audiotec-fischer.de/file... Special No.1 - The sound tuning magazine.pdf


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

What do you like about the helix over the h800?

P.S. change your sig


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

well, the 800 had a ton of little toys, but when it came to PEQ or TA it lacked...

PEQ/EQ are with in each other, to run GEQ it looks like you just set the frequency and go, to use the same this as PEQ it gives you a very wide adjustable Q think its 0-10... 800 only went to 5.

31 bands of both GEQ and PEQ per channel...

800 had 31 bands of GEQ an only 10 bands of PEQ per channel, and that didnt get you the full channel ( each output ) the best we got it was tweeter and midrange had 10 bands total, midbass had 10 bands total and sub had 5.

TA on the 800 had .5 adjustments, Helix has .2
it self calculates which i just tried and worked perfect...

the UI is the biggest thing, all needed setting are on one page...
800 you had to hit a tab every time you wanted to do something...

crossovers, then TA, then EQ, etc... and every time you touch a new tab in unmutes everything.. i tune at night and it gets me every time if i havent turned the volume down or something...

Helix has a very small footprint, 800 wasnt bad... 

other than that, i just really wanted a solid processor with a ton of EQ ...
they can keep all the Dolby and surround sound stuff ... i never use it...

also got the new remote for the Helix and its simple but nice... only downfall with the Helix is i cant tweek while driving.... but i need to stop doing that anyways... so its nice, im forced to just listen while driving instead of tweaking everything everywhere i go...

change my sig????


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

P.S. change your sig [/QUOTE]

got ya... changed and thank you for reminding me ...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> also,
> 
> the guys at Syracuse Customs sent me a very well written Helix DSP Magazine.
> 
> ...


Yes, that paper is very informative. Much better than most manuals is. The new version of the DSP looks much better than mine.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

The Helix got Q 0,5 - 15 btw


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## mob17 (Apr 30, 2012)

Congrats, i'm sure you'll find it easier to use. 

By the way, how did you get hold of the remote? Helix (USA) told me it wasn't available


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thank you guys,

Han question: per your advice I installed the tweeter caps.
I got Mobile SPEC msbb-4 4 ohm-8 ohm 
Since my tweeters are actually measuring 5.4 ohm it looks like it will operate at 0-1.2k.

When I turn the truck on I get a slight static pop out of both tweeters.

I did this after I installed the Helix, so it isn't from that.

Has to be the caps. Is this common?

Syracuse already had some of the remotes in.
Shoot them an email I'm sure they can get one for you ...

The paper was written very well from a technical stand point.

Surprising ... Not many companies would go to that extent I suspect...


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## calebkhill (Jan 12, 2013)

I'm only On page six of this thread. Have learned alot, alot. Plan on getting a dsp later and following this route. Awesome guys.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Congrats on the new toy!! Hope you have loads of fun with it. It has a much finer resolution vs the bit 1 / 10. Although I don't agree with the reference curve shown on page 40 & 41. Looks like a seriously good unit.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thanks SQ,

I have high hopes...

I think after spending some on the DQXS, then H800 I have a pretty good idea of what I really want and need..

I never used any of the fancy toys on the H800...

So why have them...

This thing is so simple, you don't have to go looking around for where something is located... All on the front page...

I'm pretty happy and I hope I've found a good processor...

So far so good though...

I read the whole magazine, some of it I understood,
Some of it put me to sleep... But I can say that I continue to learn something new everyday...


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

It's true, the H800 has a lot of stuff I don't really need. I do like the fact that I have a sub control and access to presets via the RUX. I may get it permanently installed instead of just having it flopping around in the center console.

The Helix's finer control over EQ and TA sounds great. What do you get via the Helix remote? Could you maybe post a pic of the Helix remote side-by-side with the RUX?

EDIT: Another question...Is USB the only connection to the Helix? They'd advertised tuning via smartphone before, but it doesn't look like that's still on the table?


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## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

The Helix dsp looks like a nice unit by the specs and GUI. 
Can you use the remote for changing to different eq presets? Is there a way to have more than 1 eq preset with the Helix? I like to have one preset with no TA for when I have passengers in the car. I always like to get info on products if my hardware ever dies & I have to replace.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

I sure can...

This evening I will put it on the priority list...

I don't know a whole lot about the remote yet...

But it seems to control just a few things..

Which to me, is much better... With the H800 I was tweaking all the time...

I think this will force me to listen more, take notes and analyze before I hit a button or turn a knob...

So in my opinion I think that's better for me...

Bluetooth seems to be something we may see in the future I'm told.

I'm not the pro on this device by any means... But the guys at the shop seemed to have a lot of info... They are pretty tight with the Rockford/Helix group...

The two remotes look nothing alike...

Actually I can take a pic of the Helix remote right now...

See attached...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Well from what I know right now,

The remote should allow me to access 1 of either 2-3 presets...

It also allows for SD micro card interaction which I plan to spend some time on this evening...

But here is my take, 

If I can load 2 presets, like you said one with TA and one without I will be thrilled, I'm looking forward to just listening for a while...
Then if I need to make an adjustment it's pretty easy to plug the laptop in and their UI is great and makes it easy to do something quickly..

I now have my TA settings in from the H800 and cleaned up the wiring...

Ran some new RCA's threw the caps on the tweeters...
So I'm close to giving it a good listen...

Also check out that fact that their crossover options are huge...

Also a user defined crossover... Nice thing is it tells you what it would be best used for... Kind of Dummy proof... Which makes it even better for me!!!


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Very small footprint, had to run the wires so I could turn the Helix on its side 
With the Logo in the upright orientation.

It's not immaculate but I will clean it up more later...

Time for a quick listen make sure everything is good and post more soon...


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Thanks sbaum. I'm reading that magazine right now. It's good stuff and is making me seriously consider swapping my H800 out for a Helix DSP. It seems to be much more adjustable in terms of EQ, TA, and XO; and the GUI also looks very simple to use (though I haven't even connected the H800 to the PC yet...just used the RUX).

Jcharger,
Look through that magazine sbaum posted the link for. I think your answer is in there on page 17.

If I'm reading it correctly, you can have two presets loaded. You can swap between them using the "Control" button on the HelixDSP's chassis but if you do it that way, the DSP will go back to setup one the next time you power the unit on (and it'd be a pain to use if it's installed in the trunk). But it also looks like you can switch using that URC 2A remote sbaum posted the pic of, and it's implied that the DSP will recall whichever setup you're using the next time you power up.


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Dammit Sbaum. Now I'm REALLY thinking I might switch to the Helix DSP. 

We'll see. I'm really liking what I'm seeing so far, so it could happen pretty damn fast if I pull the trigger.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Just pull the trigger, you only live once right...

I know that " sbaumbaugh " thing is BS
You can use Bomba if it is shorter...

I should change my username??


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Once you've set L/R eq, does it let you connect the 2 channels while you're eq for tonality? 1db cut means it applies to both sides, or do you have to switch to each channel and then set things?


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

I don't believe I can EQ the total of all drivers on one side?

As I know it right now I can link 2 channels or EQ each channel separately...

With TA applied No EQ ... I notice a bit different sound.

It seems a bit more stable as far as image goes and maybe less color applied to the signal... As opposed to H800 which seemed very colorful...

In my opinion I want something with as little color as possible...

And this sounds very active and alive...

I really like the sound....


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## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

That sounds like a very nice setup with the remote. I agree with having to much control at the wheel is never a good thing. I had a 7 band peq before and I couldn't stop fiddling with it when driving, very bad idea. Yanked it out in less than a month.
Presets are an ideal compromise IMO.

Good luck with your new dsp!


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Thanks J,

Also got some CONE midrange drivers at the request of Han and SQ...

Audio Development made in Italy.
M35NEO
Fs 130hz

I'm gonna drop them into my pods and see what they do.

I don't know much about this midrange yet
So if anyone does that would be helpful before I tear things apart...

But, they play much lower than my current dynaudio midrange.

Once I install them and measure I guess I will know...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Channels and settings are linkable in the UI. Just check the box above each channel and adjust any setting and it will do the same for both.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> As I know it right now I can link 2 channels or EQ each channel separately...


That's what I was asking. Tks, its a great feature when you're tuning dialing in tonality by tweaking individual frequencies.



sbaumbaugh said:


> With TA applied No EQ ... I notice a bit different sound.
> 
> It seems a bit more stable as far as image goes and maybe less color applied to the signal... As opposed to H800 which seemed very colorful...
> 
> ...


When you're tuning in finer resolution ta, eq or xovers points, give your ears some time to settle before they accurately start picking better from worse. Not sure what you mean by colourful though. You're comparing two objects under different conditions.

Let the ears settle in. When you're tuning beyond the measurements, the only thing you rely on is your ability to accurately pick what you're hearing. That accuracy is will come once your ears settle in. 

There's no such thing as 'golden ears'. Hearing is a sense that can be developed and refined over time just like any other sense. People who are visually challenged can normally hear much better than you and me. 

Sorry about the rant .


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Try a 250Hz / 24dB crossover on the cone midr drivers. Do a loud sweep (as high as you gonna listen to the system) in REW. Check distortion; if the 2nd order HD doesn't go above 3% and/or 3rd order jumps above 2% you should be fine.

Drop to 200Hz and repeat the test, that way you'll determine the lowest xover point. Ofc you need to see if they can reproduce 200Hz in the first place, they might roll off before that. You could try some crazy xover settings together with EQ if you need to tame the FR in a wider range to get it to match up against the other midr driver. I used 1100Hz / 6dB on one mid 200Hz/24dB on the other, the acoustic FR was about the same though...

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Also got some CONE midrange drivers at the request of Han and SQ...
> 
> Audio Development made in Italy.
> M35NEO
> ...


Play with crossing the mid and woofer ~200-400. 

Someones been on a shopping binge.


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Just pull the trigger, you only live once right...
> 
> I know that " sbaumbaugh " thing is BS
> You can use Bomba if it is shorter...
> ...


Yeah, but I just have to figure out whether I feel like dumping another $700-800. I'm sure I could sell the PXA/RUX. I also have an H701 combo I need to sell. And a 3sixty.2 I need to sell. LOL

No need to change username unless you really want to.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> That's what I was asking. Tks, its a great feature when you're tuning dialing in tonality by tweaking individual frequencies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This makes very good sense...

I guess I should say initially it seems less colorful but as you say, No EQ applied it probably will sound different..,

I have to get into the habit of comparing apples to apples...

You make a good point though, I'm gonna let it sink in, see what comes if it...


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## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

^^^^^^ DSP's R US. 

Just think you could hook 2 of them up in line and have a 62 band EQ. 

Seriously though I can't believe how much stuff I have after only playing for a short time. I can only imagine what'll be laying around in a few years. Prob have to buy a shed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is badass!! vvvvvv 

"Hanatsu"
"Channels and settings are linkable in the UI. Just check the box above each channel and adjust any setting and it will do the same for both."


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> That's what I was asking. Tks, its a great feature when you're tuning dialing in tonality by tweaking individual frequencies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Hanatsu said:


> Try a 250Hz / 24dB crossover on the cone midr drivers. Do a loud sweep (as high as you gonna listen to the system) in REW. Check distortion; if the 2nd order HD doesn't go above 3% and/or 3rd order jumps above 2% you should be fine.
> 
> Drop to 200Hz and repeat the test, that way you'll determine the lowest xover point. Ofc you need to see if they can reproduce 200Hz in the first place, they might roll off before that. You could try some crazy xover settings together with EQ if you need to tame the FR in a wider range to get it to match up against the other midr driver. I used 1100Hz / 6dB on one mid 200Hz/24dB on the other, the acoustic FR was about the same though...
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.



Will do, not much info on those cone midranges,

But I will give them a try and see how they do...


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Jcharger13 said:


> ^^^^^^ DSP's R US.
> 
> Just think you could hook 2 of them up in line and have a 62 band EQ.


LOL. Yeah, or all 3 of the ones I have, then get the Helix and hook up 4 DSPs inline!


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

I spent an hour today tweaking TA, I have not touched it in a couple of weeks so I got some good listening impressions. I ended up fine tuning it by slightly right by adding cutting .02ms left, and adding .02ms right, I definitely centered up nicer and maybe a bit more focus. I was having lower midbass range pull left into my right leg instead of dead center. Not a lot, but noticeable. 

I tried the cutting the mid a bit at 125-200 but ended up going back to my original setting, I felt it got too thin and I prefer a warm vocal. I did not get to mess with 80hz on the mid. I found it harder to integrate the amount of sub level I prefer without getting it too loud and losing some upfront bass. There is a definite sweet spot of sub goodness where it's loud but all upfront, and super clean. I eyeballed my sub playing and it's only moving ~10 or 11 mm on heavy bass material. I will definitely go back and try to see what the 80 and 125-200 range can offer me, I am sure I did not get it right or to a good setting, I simply did not have time to work on that at lunch from work 

Definitely work your tune sbaum! You have lots to gain with the experience. 
I am very impressed at where I am getting to, and my friends that hear it are genuinely surprised at how good it sounds, they get in expecting me to rattle teeth with the sub, and instead they get a sonic experience they have never had before, hearing things in music they have never heard, and they mostly start to see why I am chasing the SQ end of the field (but with some gusto).

I need a different rear view mirror...some internal something buzzes/rattles a bit at certain frequencies...I bet I can pry it apart and do something about that, some expanding foam I think, filling up that cavity and trimming it so I can get the halves back together should do the trick.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

guys,

had a little time tonight so ... we all know how hard it is some time to find a reference track with the explanation of all panning, effects, levels, etc...

so i threw together a quick 30 second track.
the file contains each individual track with all effects and panning
all tracks rendered to a single master track to hear the total mix
a text file of how to and all spec data on audio files...

print the text file, import the audio files at the highest quality you can, burn them to disc, pop in the system and compare what you hear to the text document... these are just loops to make a short 30 second song consisting of 5 total tracks...

see what you think, 


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/oj2w2bz2zolbkpw/sxwWAspDaA


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

my thought on this idea is:

i know there are a million tracks that we can use for this type of thing.
but its hard to know what those tracks contain as far as panning, compression etc...

so we can collectively create our own, this " 30 second test track file "
should give you a good idea of what we can do.

frequency, panning, level, phase, compression... 

once you read the file, and try it.... let me know your thoughts...

its easy though, it will take longer to burn the disc...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Deadpool_25 said:


> Yeah, but I just have to figure out whether I feel like dumping another $700-800. I'm sure I could sell the PXA/RUX. I also have an H701 combo I need to sell. And a 3sixty.2 I need to sell. LOL
> 
> No need to change username unless you really want to.


what???

you could sell 2 of those and get your Helix no problem...

you have more in stock than Crutchfield...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> Play with crossing the mid and woofer ~200-400.
> 
> Someones been on a shopping binge.


it wasnt to bad, i sold a few things and was going to use it for something...

i do honestly feel pretty good about this decision.... cant wait to get back to tuning....


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Jcharger13 said:


> ^^^^^^ DSP's R US.
> 
> Just think you could hook 2 of them up in line and have a 62 band EQ.
> 
> ...


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sqnut said:


> To tighten up the bass you have, cut a chunk in the 160-300 range. In the system response plot, 160-300 is at par with 30-50. That doesn't look right. I'm sure you have gobs of mid bass, but it may not be 'tight'. Try putting your sub on a steeper slope.
> 
> If cutting the 160-300 range makes you feel like you have lost a lot of bass, try raising a bit at 60 and 100, like I mentioned earlier. Give your ears a day or two to settle into the sound. See if you can now pick a lot more details in the music, stuff that was getting masked earlier.


This looks interesting to try, I just have not had much time to tune. I will try this Sunday or Monday and report back.

The word "tight: is what I think I might be able to gain, like I noted, the midbass is very, ummm...present...


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## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Thank you guys,
> 
> Han question: per your advice I installed the tweeter caps.
> I got Mobile SPEC msbb-4 4 ohm-8 ohm
> ...


SBaum did you ever figure out anything on this? I'm planning on getting some caps to be safe but have been wondering about this issue with your tweets. Prob worth the pop to potentially save an expensive set of tweeters IMO.


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

I'm going to post a bunch of stuff up for sale in the classifieds and am going to pick up the Helix DSP. Syracuse Customs is out of stock on those (more in a week) and the controller (more in a month  ). I really need the controller since I'll be running optical.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

therapture said:


> I tried the cutting the mid a bit at 125-200 but ended up going back to my original setting, I felt it got too thin and I prefer a warm vocal.


If you only cut the 125-200 range, of course the sound will thin out. Your 3-8khz range is brighter than it should be, that's why you have that excess in the 160-300 range, so that there is some degree of balance. If you cut the 160-300 range you _have _ to also make corresponding and deeper cuts in the 3-8 khz range (~1.5x what you cut down low) and a bit in the 600-800hz region.

Most of the guys tuning via rta/rew etc seem to wind up with similar system level curves. 10-15db roll off from ~40-200 and then a flat line (+/- 2-3db) till about 5-8khz and then a roll off. 

I've attached the FM / Equal Loudness curves and a random selection of a FR chart for a headphone. Let's say there was something called an ideal FR response 'x' at ear level. Now x would vary from car to car and install to install. But what if we wanted to capture a median curve? The FR of the headphone could be one such median curve or trend line. Within this your curve could be within +/- 3-4 db across the 10 octaves with a few exceptions at +/- 5-6db. Think of the concept rather than absolute numbers or exact curves. 

So if the median curve for a car is one that has a continuous roll off, two questions that would pop up are 1) Why do we need to roll off the upper mids and highs 2) I've tried it but it just give a bass heavy sound with loss of clarity.

1) Why do we need a roll off. 

A. Think about listening to your 2ch at home while in the sweet spot. What is the FR at the speakers and at your ears? Chances are the speakers measure flatish but the upper mids and highs are rolled off at your ear. The higher frequencies have a much shorter wavelength and attenuate ~ 3-4 db for every 3 feet that they travel. So with you sitting 8-10' from the speakers you're losing 5-6db's on this account. The higher frequencies are also more prone to absorption with things like carpets, drapes, soft furniture etc mre attenuation. Nut shell, that well balanced sound you're hearing has rolled off upper mids and highs.

B. In a car where you're sitting 2-5' from your speakers. Limited loss due to distance. You're in a highly reflective environment. Frequencies above ~500hz are prone to reflections. Reflections are giving you comb filtering due to summation and cancellations. 6-8db swings would be less of an issue at 50-400hz range but the comb filtering is happening in the 800+ zone. About the worst place to have comb filtering would be the 2-4khz range cause our ears will be most sensitive to response changes in this range. So we need to cut this range to minimize the impact of comb filtering. It's not going away by attenuating this range, you're just lowering its impact. 

2) I've tried it but......

That median curve is a starting point your HC. If it sounds like there is too much bass your first instinct is to cut the lower end right? Wrong. The way for ward is to bring up the mid range 500-2khz a bit. If sound is bassy and the vocals are getting lost try bringing up 500-800. But be carfull this range can give you telephone like sound, it can add brassiness to the sound so stop short of that point. Next try bringing up the 1-2khz range. This range gives dynamics to your sound but too much and you'll thin the sound out again. Once you set your mid range 500-2khz properly, a lot of the heavy bottom end wil vanish. Mid range is the toughest to dial in in any system. There is no real benefit in keeping 3-5khz any where close to the levels of your midrange. 

3-5khz makes the sound grainy and just unpleasant. You would open up the response a bit starting ~8-10khz 10 and 14 give dynamics to the higher end harmonics while 12khz gives you the airy sound. If your midrange is hot you're going to hear it when you try and open up the top end. All this is happening at 1/3 oct levels while the overall response of the system is tailing off. 

It's unlikely that you will measure your way to that X curve. The minute you get into measuring while setting the tonality your mind is thinking in straight lines. Thats just how our brains are wired. The key is to identify that median curve and then tune at 1/3 oct level that you have. You'll get closer to X when you start hearing your way there. 

Arun


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Silly idea probably, but I can't help wondering....


If I mic'ed my headphones for the FR...and then tried to load that curve into the car...? Audio-Technica - Microphones, headphones, wireless microphone systems, noise-cancelling headphones & more : ATH-M50 : Professional Studio Monitor Headphones (with coiled cable) I love the way these cans sound and I would be happy with this sound in my car.

I imagine a car would need a bit more bass in the resulting curve?

I could put the mic between the cans dead center, close them around it, and run a sweep...or measure each side independently, using a towel to seal off the can and mic...

...or I could mic each side as I wear them, by slipping the tip of the mic under the edge of the surround...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

You'd mic the cans to get the response? Here ya goAudio Technica ATH-M50 with straight cable - Full Size Headphones | HeadRoom Audio

Applying it in the car? Try it and see how it sounds. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the direction you're taking


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

sqnut said:


> You'd mic the cans to get the response? Here ya goAudio Technica ATH-M50 with straight cable - Full Size Headphones | HeadRoom Audio
> 
> Applying it in the car? Try it and see how it sounds. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the direction you're taking


I think someone would have already tried that, or maybe it's so ridiculous that nobody ever would...


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

I wouldn't say that 12kHz give you much "air". It's even higher up... like 14kHz-16kHz+ 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Above 10Khz is mostly atmospherics. 12-14 hz though is the sweet spot for 'air'. Both for recording and playback


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Ah I remember that pic. Found the site that got the interactive version. Might be of use to someone... but it clearly states "Air" as 14kHz+. You were talking about the upper harmonics in vocals perhaps? 

Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

For both male and female vocals Air is shown as 10-16khz. 12-14khz is the sweet spot for air in vocals. Some instruments like a violin that have fundamentals in the 6-12khz range 'air' would he higher than 14khz. Check out the recording engineers handbook as well for where they record air


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Stupid noob questions inc:

What exactly is a sweep? Sine sweep? And is it something you can generate in REW or Audacity and record to disc/USB? Why is it better than pink noise?


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

Yes, a sweep is just like it sounds. It's a signal that goes through the spectrum usually starting low and getting higher, as where pink/brown/white/etc. noise is the entire signal playing (almost) at the same time. You need a sweep to have any resolution of the decay time of each frequency, which gives you the information needed to produce measurements in the time domain.

There's not much point in recording a sweep to disk, as the program relies on knowing when it is sending each discreet set of frequencies out at what time, and how long it takes to "hear" them back.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

correct...

in REW... go to the measure tab, it will give you parameters to choose how many sweeps, what length, ( 48k ) etc... set time delay for sweep ( 15 sec )
jump in vehicle and it will play the sweeps per your settings...
ie. 4 sweeps... when sweeps are done it will average all the sweeps and you do it again until all drivers are done.

you should end up with a Fr for each sweep in the SPL window.

play this sweep through your HU aux in.

sweep range can be set also, ,ie. 10-20k 

i did the pink noise for a while and it go me nowhere quick...

sweeps are the way to go if you want to make the most of your time.

but it has to be generated in REW to do any good...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Jcharger13 said:


> SBaum did you ever figure out anything on this? I'm planning on getting some caps to be safe but have been wondering about this issue with your tweets. Prob worth the pop to potentially save an expensive set of tweeters IMO.


i never did figure this out...

still have a tiny static pop when system lights up... it happens every time so at this point ive just let it go... i guess it could be cap specific??

maybe another cap manufacturer will have a different result??


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> Try a 250Hz / 24dB crossover on the cone midr drivers. Do a loud sweep (as high as you gonna listen to the system) in REW. Check distortion; if the 2nd order HD doesn't go above 3% and/or 3rd order jumps above 2% you should be fine.
> 
> Drop to 200Hz and repeat the test, that way you'll determine the lowest xover point. Ofc you need to see if they can reproduce 200Hz in the first place, they might roll off before that. You could try some crazy xover settings together with EQ if you need to tame the FR in a wider range to get it to match up against the other midr driver. I used 1100Hz / 6dB on one mid 200Hz/24dB on the other, the acoustic FR was about the same though...
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.



thats crazy that 2 of the same drivers could have such differences based on their install locations... 

almost makes me wonder why manufacturers dont test their drivers in an in vehicle environment instead of a controlled enclosure???

but this is my plan later this week... just listening for now...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> You'd mic the cans to get the response? Here ya goAudio Technica ATH-M50 with straight cable - Full Size Headphones | HeadRoom Audio
> 
> Applying it in the car? Try it and see how it sounds. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the direction you're taking


this sounds similar to what i tried to do with impulse responses...

this is where that left me...

if you mic'd the cans, and you did a really good job doing that...

the towel probably wont do the trick...

go to the most quiet room you have, blankets, towels, mattress etc may be needed to deaden the whole room, choose the smallest room possible i.e.. closet...

the mic has to be perfectly in the middle or do one at a time by muting the other channel... this way you get each individual Fr... then wrap the entire set up mic and headphones in a pretty heavy beach towel ... see what that gets you...

its got to be completely dead and the headphones cant be affected by the room at all ... especially if you have noise cancelling headphones... it will alter the response and you wont get a true reading...

once you have each Fr, compare to your HC .... probably going to be fairly similar... with very minute differences... you would probably have to look at this in very high resolution in REW to see the difference...

ie. 1 db of 8 k in the car... no big deal...
i db of 8 k in the headphones.... huge change in Fr... think about how close the source is to the ear ???

my guess without knowing is headphone rolloff will be much more dramatic much less bass response... etc.... 

ie. sit in your front seat and turn your sub up until very noticeable ...
now go back and put your ear up against the driver... OUCH!!!!!


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> If you only cut the 125-200 range, of course the sound will thin out. Your 3-8khz range is brighter than it should be, that's why you have that excess in the 160-300 range, so that there is some degree of balance. If you cut the 160-300 range you _have _ to also make corresponding and deeper cuts in the 3-8 khz range (~1.5x what you cut down low) and a bit in the 600-800hz region.
> 
> Most of the guys tuning via rta/rew etc seem to wind up with similar system level curves. 10-15db roll off from ~40-200 and then a flat line (+/- 2-3db) till about 5-8khz and then a roll off.
> 
> ...



this really makes alot of sense... 

so in theory, the variable here would be how much and at what point the roll off occurs???

other than that i would think one listener might want a little more bass, some a little less... but overall it seems most people have the same general idea for everything in between??

does that make sense??


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> Above 10Khz is mostly atmospherics. 12-14 hz though is the sweet spot for 'air'. Both for recording and playback


the AIR frequency is also dependent on recording atmosphere...

in open venue it is anywhere between 12-16 k
closed dead studio it can be 8-12k 

but for our uses, turn system up until you hear the hiss in the tweeters, or just a hair of hiss, and add a db at 10k ? 
12k? and so on... good point though... even though its in the recording, how is it transfered over into our listening environment?

it may be in the 20k region now that i think about it in our vehicles??

im not sure so dont quote me, but its a polishing frequency that is sometimes added in the mastering stage, so one engineer adds 1db, the next adds 3db...

true air would be easy to find, any outdoor recording has a ton of air in it...

we can do that easily...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> Ah I remember that pic. Found the site that got the interactive version. Might be of use to someone... but it clearly states "Air" as 14kHz+. You were talking about the upper harmonics in vocals perhaps?
> 
> Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network


this is a nice chart, and probably a good explanation as to why its so hard to tune our vehicles...

correct me if im wrong, this is why we cant use an RTA to set all frequencies flat... if we did, between C6-C7 it would become so irritating we would want to gouge our ear drums out... but this explains a lot... if C7 were the RTA'd at the same level as C6... but when its set the same PERCEIVED loudness as C6 then it sounds much better to us... 

C6/C8 is a different example as this is very difficult for us to hear in the first place, 

another 20-30 years and we'll have this figured out...

is it possible to say that if we turned this chart upside down we would
end up with the correct response for the human ear?

or the average of this chart??

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/images/sensitivity_main_chart.jpg


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

scratch that last one, if we turned it upside down it would bad...

if we turned it upside down it would be the MIRROR image of what out Fr should look like.. in reality this chart should resemble our current HC to some degree??


no??

its like we have to think backwards...

i have trouble doing it forwards...


http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/images/sensitivity_main_chart.jpg


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

food for thought...

if we are all on the same page when it comes to what actually happens inside of a recording, we might have a better chance EQ'ing in our vehicles..

these are some helpful reads from the recording, studio side of things..


6 Different Frequencies and How to Spot Them

for the guy that needs to know everything about everything...

Mastering Tips | Audio Mastering Facts | Mastering FAQ's | Mixing Tips

here is a good one, they discuss when they add air, what frequency (96k) 
etc.... 

When do you get your air? At mixdown or in mastering? - Gearslutz.com


point is, if we dont know what these people are doing and at what stage and frequency, i think we miss the boat... 

these are the people making the mixes we are trying to EQ to...

IMO right now we are trying to unlock the vault, and we only have part of the combination... just my .02


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

One thing about the FletcherMunson curves; Notice how the ears sensitivity "phon" ain't linear with volume? How do you tune when the overall perceived tonality will be altered by the volume you play at? If you look closely you see that it's mainly the lower regions that changes with higher volume. Most often you have no means to change the bass level depending on how loud you listen to music (I think Alpine had a system which altered a "loudness" curve based on volume). Discuss! 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

hmmm....

so, that would be intuitive.... like a filter that senses the volume applied and there for changes the response curve somehow?

kind of like Gating, but a much more complex equation??

are we on the same page?


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> One thing about the FletcherMunson curves; Notice how the ears sensitivity "phon" ain't linear with volume? How do you tune when the overall perceived tonality will be altered by the volume you play at? If you look closely you see that it's mainly the lower regions that changes with higher volume. Most often you have no means to change the bass level depending on how loud you listen to music (I think Alpine had a system which altered a "loudness" curve based on volume). Discuss!
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.



It took me a minute to chew on this but this is probably the reason why in the car audio world you guys tune at the volume your listening volume?

One db up and the whole thing goes out if whack and the same for going down??

So let me take a shot at this, the best we could do is have averages at say, if volume on your HU max is say 50... Average 45-50
And 40-45 . 

2 averages to keep things simple .

Could do more if you wanted, then you would have a good idea as to " how badly the system falls apart "?

I say fall apart because essentially I think that's what it does outside of the area we EQ'd for...

Ie. my HU max is 35
I tune at 28
I should tune @ 28,30,32,34
And the same for say 20-28 but won't be as noticeable at lower volume.

In theory so if I choose to go louder it would have the same relative response with volume applied, which in theory is just a compressor.

And a compressor in theory has the ability to take something we can't hear at 86db and make it very annoying at 96db in relation to the volume applied to surrounding frequencies...

So if 10k sounded great at 86 db and we turn the volume knob until we hit 96db in theory shouldn't it sound as good?

Only if the surrounding frequencies are in exact alignment with the volume applied....

Does everybody follow this??

It could get very deep if I keep going...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

In short to overcome this we have to tune at absolute max!!!

Max as far as the loudest you would ever turn the volume up without clipping...

Then you would know your response is in check all the way up and it would be in check all the way back down....

Notice also about 1/3 of the way down from max to 0 you would probably begin to lose your upper end frequencies because we have so much roll off

Try this in REW.
Pull up a full Fr
Take a sheet of paper and place it at the bottom so all of the Fr is showing.
Call this MAX

Now start to slide the piece of paper upward toward the top of the screen and watch as the upper frequencies start to disappear...

This would be how a compressor works in reverse as you turn the volume back down from max....

Little by little everything is gone all the way down to 0....


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

I'd say tuning rule #1 is: tune so _your_ favorite music sounds good_ to you_ at the volumes _you_ listen at. 

Thanks for the info on the sweep. So on my MacBook, I run the mic into the USB and a 1/4" plug into the aux in. And then I gotta get the laptop all setup/calibrated correctly. I remember a discussion about that a few pages back I think. I'll go look through it again.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

that will get you playing sweeps, but check with Han or SQ about the loopback thing....

i still struggle with that one... not sure if you actually need loopback for running sweeps, / recording sweeps think its more for TA purposes, but I've been know to be wrong....


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> _so in theory, the variable here would be how much and at what point the roll off occurs???_
> 
> other than that i would think one listener might want a little more bass, some a little less... but overall it seems most people have the same general idea for everything in between??
> 
> does that make sense??


Spot on. The FM curves are median curves, which means an average. What the curves basically mean are, if you heard a 40hz, 400hz and 4khz tone so that all were set for say 80db at your ear, based on what you hear the 4khz would sound the loudest, the 40hz the lowest and 400hz somewhere between. That is the effect of varying sensitivities across the 10 octaves. 

When your curve measures more or less flat from 400 to 4khz, your ears are not hearing it that way. Hence the flat response that we keep talking about is not flat as measured but flat as heard. Sweeps are a great way to go about this. 

You want to use the eq so that the sweep across the frequencies sound at the same amplitude _to you._ Cut / boost individual frequencies till they all sound 'level'. Use the pink noise tracks and equalise small ranges. 40-100hz then 100-400 hz and so on. [edit] Next check the two adjoining ranges. So compare 50hz and 160hz next 80 hz and 200 hz and so on. 

You're trying to get everything sounding at the same level. You will reach a point at the top end where boosting eq will not help. Let it be. Your system and hearing are tailing off [edit]. Now do a sweep. Chances are you will still notice peaks and dips. Rinse and repeat till the sweeps sound level. 

Follow the FM curve and you will wind up boosting the low end below~100, ~160-1khz would be flat, you would boost a bit ~1-1.25 khz and then roll off with deeper successive cuts start from about 1.6khz on to about 4khz. The ears sensitivity tails off again between 5-10khz, so you would compensate accordingly.

Now measure the response. Any guesses what curve you will come up with? More important, how does it sound? [edit] This is your HC now use the eq to dial in tonality. [edit]

This hobby is unique in that, it requires us to use both sides of our brain. Most of us are left brain dominant in most things we do. Hence we are logical, analytic, require proof and like to build the whole from smaller logical bits. This hobby requires us to use the right side too. Hence intuitive, how it sounds etc. If you limit yourself to only one side you will always have an incomplete picture. Measurements are are the basic building blocks and hence vital. But unless you accept and embrace and teach your mind to use the right side, you're not going to get that X factor in your sound. 

Arun


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

it is taking me a little while to embrace this " other side"

but it makes very good sense now after seeing so many Fr and understanding how that relates back to what im hearing...

who knew it wasnt actually flat.... 

i can almost sense myself getting smarter, or im just hungry...
one of the two???

but it does make perfect sense, and also why one sound doesnt fit all...

so let me ask this question...

if we all had curves that we designed and that was the way we listen to music.

we combine all the curves to come up with 1 average.... chances are all the curves would be relatively the same in the middle but have slight differences in the lower and upper frequencies because all of our collective ears hear those frequencies slightly different, and we have slightly different taste....but as for the body or middle we all hear about the same and we all accept a certain Fr in that frequency region???


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> One thing about the FletcherMunson curves; Notice how the ears sensitivity "phon" ain't linear with volume? How do you tune when the overall perceived tonality will be altered by the volume you play at? If you look closely you see that it's mainly the lower regions that changes with higher volume. Most often you have no means to change the bass level depending on how loud you listen to music (I think Alpine had a system which altered a "loudness" curve based on volume). Discuss!
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


You tune by setting the volume knob at about the level you mostly hear at. If my normal level is 45/62, I will typically set things up at ~50/62.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> so let me ask this question...
> 
> if we all had curves that we designed and that was the way we listen to music.
> 
> we combine all the curves to come up with 1 average.... chances are all the curves would be relatively the same in the middle but have slight differences in the lower and upper frequencies because all of our collective ears hear those frequencies slightly different, and we have slightly different taste....but as for the body or middle we all hear about the same and we all accept a certain Fr in that frequency region???


 It's not about your ear hearing 40hz different from the way I hear it. It's about the fact that both of us would hear 40hz lower than 4khz for a given amplitude, cause that is how our ears work.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Been taking my time setting up the new DSP
Trying to get levels and TA as close as possible before I measure for EQ.

Lowered my crossovers on midbass drivers and experimented with a few of the other crossover options in the Helix DSP.

It sounds pretty decent as it stands with no EQ applied so if all goes well I should be measuring this weekend with some new plots to post soon.

With any luck we will see some straight lines...

Going to EQ for the drivers seat and EQ for total front stage.

So far I am completely impressed with the Helix, I thought busting out the laptop every time I wanted to make an adjustment would be a pain, but to be honest, if I start with a fully charged laptop battery, that gives me about 2 hours or so... And when it dies I'm done, so it's been a pleasure to work with this UI as opposed to H800 which I tinkered with 24 hours a day...

I think I'm more productive this way...
Things are getting adjusted and set, and then left alone until I revisit with new notes ...

I have about 4-6 hours total working in the Helix UI so I don't know all the ins and outs... But I can't think of anything I would want to change about it other than I would like to manually be able to enter a value as opposed to clicking the up or down arrow ...

So far that's it...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Going to EQ for the drivers seat and EQ for total front stage.
> 
> .


Drivers seat and 2 seater?


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

sqnut said:


> Drivers seat and 2 seater?


I don't carry passengers very often but I figure why not.

Should be measuring tomorrow night...

With any luck...


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

I need to dial in a tune for passenger, I do not care to have a 2-seater. I just want to be able to swap back and forth for demo purposes or when I want to show off.

But I want to kind of finalize my current drivers side tune, using some of the prior suggestions, I am just having time shortage issues right now and it's going to get worse as my training level ramps up.

OH, and then I want to power up my rear doors for my kids on trips...but I want to make it sound good for me as well. Thinking of going an ambient rear fill type setup, I can use my fader to cut the rears out of the equation for solo listening. I currently run the fader all the way front, it has the best midbass response that way.

The madness never ends. Tuning is addicting, and there is never enough time to get all my **** done


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

therapture said:


> The madness never ends. Tuning is addicting, and there is never enough time to get all my **** done


Wait till you got 11 channels to tune, like I had. Not time consuming at all, promise


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Been taking my time setting up the new DSP
> Trying to get levels and TA as close as possible before I measure for EQ.
> 
> Lowered my crossovers on midbass drivers and experimented with a few of the other crossover options in the Helix DSP.
> ...


unless its completely changed since I used it a year ago, I was always able to enter any value I wanted for XO points


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> Wait till you got 11 channels to tune, like I had. Not time consuming at all, promise


Oh...my...god, Becky...


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> Wait till you got 11 channels to tune, like I had. Not time consuming at all, promise


So....... you're masochistic and ocd?


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

...with 3 different dsps. P99 - p-dsp and a bit10 at the same. The difference in the internal delay between the DSPs just added to the fun ^.^

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Did anyone try setting up the pink noise tracks flat, by ear? Then measure what you come up with. The using this as a base and the sound you describe, we can try tuning a bit by ear.


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## Jcharger13 (Jul 12, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> ...with 3 different dsps. P99 - p-dsp and a bit10 at the same. The difference in the internal delay between the DSPs just added to the fun ^.^
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


11 channels, 3 DSP's with internal delay differences.  
My brain hurts from thinking about tuning your setup. 

With your knowledge I bet it sounds fantastic.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Mic10is said:


> unless its completely changed since I used it a year ago, I was always able to enter any value I wanted for XO points


going to confirm ... but just to clarify, i can manually use the arrow button up or down to move through numeric settings, but i cant just type in a number...

about to light her up ... re-did a bunch of wiring, figured now was as good a time as any.... 

so... should have something new to talk about in a couple hours...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Hanatsu said:


> ...with 3 different dsps. P99 - p-dsp and a bit10 at the same. The difference in the internal delay between the DSPs just added to the fun ^.^
> 
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.



im happy to see you went with 3 different DSP'S... im sure that made things easier for you.... that explains so much.... they have special counseling for people with 3 DSP'S!!! ( DIFFERENT ) DSP'S....


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Just carrying on the discussion.....



sbaumbaugh said:


> the AIR frequency is also dependent on recording atmosphere...


Not only the recording space but also the space you're listening in. 

The difference between the studio and an outdoor recording, is on account of differences in physical space. Basically the quantum and pattern of late reflections. But your perception of this difference is limited by the size of your listening space, as you mention later in your post. The bigger your listening space, the greater the difference you'll hear. 

Meanwhile in our reflective sardine can, the outdoor recording will sound more 'open', but if you focus you might find that the overall dimensions of your stage haven't really grown. The sense of space comes from late reflections, that are attenuated and in a narrow delay pass band. Sadly, there are precious few of these in a car. 

That's what Han is doing with his 11 channels. Create that delayed sound, so that the perception of stage dimension grows from somewhat larger than the physical boundaries, to something much larger. Figuring out the best pass band, response and delay, sounds familiar.

But whichever way you dice it, I don't think one can get away from the size and character of the room you're in. It probably will bite you somewhere or the other. I kinda accept the limitations of my space and try focus on getting everything accurate within that scale. I probably couldn't handle 11 channels and 3 processors 




sbaumbaugh said:


> in open venue it is anywhere between 12-16 k
> closed dead studio it can be 8-12k
> 
> but for our uses, turn system up until you hear the hiss in the tweeters, or just a hair of hiss, and add a db at 10k ?
> ...


I think hiss is ~ 16hz. Agree that its easy to build air into live open air recordings. The polishing frequency would brighten up a chunk of the sound, seems like 800hz and up but I may be going too low here. Tweaking at 20khz in small increments +/-on the eq has a very audible change in the overall sound.

10khz and above is incrementally more and more about atmospherics, I'll try and explain how I see it. Would be interesting to see others take.


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> going to confirm ... but just to clarify, i can manually use the arrow button up or down to move through numeric settings, but i cant just type in a number...
> 
> about to light her up ... re-did a bunch of wiring, figured now was as good a time as any....
> 
> so... should have something new to talk about in a couple hours...


Were you able to enter values, or just use the arrows?

What's your overall impression of the HelixDSP vs the H800 so far? I'm ordering the Helix this week. Like you, I like the finer adjustments of the XO and TA, and need neither the automatic stuff like Imprint and RoadEQ, nor the multi-channel stuff like Dolby/DTS/etc.

Also I like that I don't need a controller like the RUX. I will get the HDSP's remote, but plan to hardwire its functions (two knobs and a button) into my center console. That way I'll have a volume and sub control, and will be able to switch to a 2nd preset, but I won't have a din-sized thingamabob sticking out like a sore thumb.

Bomba, you're a bad influence on my bank account.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Deadpool_25 said:


> Were you able to enter values, or just use the arrows?
> 
> What's your overall impression of the HelixDSP vs the H800 so far? I'm ordering the Helix this week. Like you, I like the finer adjustments of the XO and TA, and need neither the automatic stuff like Imprint and RoadEQ, nor the multi-channel stuff like Dolby/DTS/etc.
> 
> ...



Lol.... I apologize for Twisting your arm....
Too funny!!!

To be honest I haven't tried to enter a numerical value, I actually prefer to use the up and down arrows now... It gives me a chance to listen as I move up or down through crossovers or levels...

So in my " not at all professional opinion I love this thing..."

The remote is in did some rewiring and re-routed some signal wiring and have just been listening and moving crossovers a bit, TA is as close as I can make it right now prior to applying any EQ.

I had big plans to measure this last weekend but just got busy and ran out of steam...

Finalizing my game plan and hope to measure very soon.

Please don't take my opinion only, but I feel this was a wise purchase for me.
It has exactly what I need and no more...

If you don't require all the bells and whistles and have a need for a powerful flexible EQ with a ton of crossover options...

This DSP is for you....


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Good to hear. Placed my order today. I'm guessing I'll install it next week. Guess I need to put some of this other gear up for sale in the classifieds! Lol


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

I think you'll be happy...

Did you order the DsP and remote?

The remote is simple in design and looks but once the system is tuned what do you really need until the next session?

Here is my official take on the H800/Helix DSP

Still no EQ applied, TA is set, levels set.

When I had the H800 to this very point no EQ applied...
It was somewhat Harsh, maybe sharp to a degree...

Although I spent quite a bit of time tuning my crossover points by ear this time.
The HDSP has infinite options as the H800 was very limited.

Also it seems to help that when you make adjustments in the Helix you don't have an audible noise while you move through settings, like the H800 had.

This is very smooth and moving through crossover points lets you hear the frequencies falling off or adding...

My midbass crossover has changed quite a bit from the original 80/24
To 58/24 it's nice having very small incremental adjustments.

Sub plays very well crossed much lower than before...

Which I can't remember where that was and the laptop is dead...

Also, note: I had a very slight audible noise when I initially installed the Helix with Butt connectors, so as I re-did all the wiring I soldered each and shrunk wrapped each individually then shrunk wrap the whole thing once done and retested, I have no noise what so ever at this point...

Other than the small static pop because of the new tweeter caps...

So do a good job wiring...you should be in good shape...

Do you guys agree there is some validity in soldering over crimping when it comes to noise?


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Good info, thanks.

Yes, I ordered it with the remote. I'd like to have the remote functions hard wired into my center console. Or maybe figure out how to get the steering wheel volume control to work for the master volume. What kind of connector goes from the remote to the processor? CAT6?

What wires did you solder instead of crimping? Power/ground/remote?


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Deadpool_25 said:


> Good info, thanks.
> 
> Yes, I ordered it with the remote. I'd like to have the remote functions hard wired into my center console. Or maybe figure out how to get the steering wheel volume control to work for the master volume. What kind of connector goes from the remote to the processor? CAT6?
> 
> What wires did you solder instead of crimping? Power/ground/remote?


Yes I believe it's a cat6 connector

I did solder power, ground and remote...

It's completely silent now...


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Han,

Any chance you can lend me your new HC?

Interested to try it out and compare if you don't mind...

If you had drop box that might be easier??


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> Han,
> 
> Any chance you can lend me your new HC?
> 
> ...


I got a dropbox now. Lemme see if I can find it.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Hm, see if you can download from here. If it works I can share my tuning disc as well. Note that this is one HC for each side. It's 100% centered in my car and in two others I tried it in with similar speaker placements.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/txiwz0ktae7252f/hana3_hc_left.txt

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p5zga1jk0ohett7/hana3_hc_right.txt


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

the new HC's look quite different from the last one...

looking forward to plugging them in...

thank you very much Han,


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

sbaumbaugh said:


> the new HC's look quite different from the last one...
> 
> looking forward to plugging them in...
> 
> thank you very much Han,


It's derived in another way so to speak. Tonality is closer to my personal preference now but the last one was a pure competition curve with a more "flat" sound. The new one sounds warmer to me.


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## sbaumbaugh (May 21, 2013)

Behringer: U-CONTROL UCA202

This looks like an affordable well designed sound card
for use in REW...

Anyone tried anything like this?

Do we think it would work?

It seems small and should be easy to throw in the backpack..
As opposed to my Motu..


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## Deadpool_25 (Apr 2, 2010)

Seems I haven't checked in in quite a while. I ended up selling the HelixDSP before ever using it. I went with a P99RS so I figured I didn't need the Helix initially. We'll see if I want to add one down the line.


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