# Have I reached my GB10 tweeters limits?



## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

I set gains with an SMD DD1 and the amp is a Zapco ST-4X P... According to the DD1 it's distortion free up to -3.5 on the Helix Director's volume. 

While tuning, I had to lower the tweeters levels a lot to match the GS690s that needed some pretty heavy EQing... HPF is 2,300.

The other day (for the first time) I wanted to see how loud I could go, and at -10.5 on the Director's volume I got a tiny little crackle from the tweeters. 

What bothers me about this, is that it wasn't really THAT loud... The GB12 subs and the GS690s seemed to be performing effortlessly... 

*Should I be trouble shooting for an issue or is this just my tweeters limits?*


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## jrwalte (Mar 27, 2008)

You may be crossing them too low. GB10 should really be 3k or higher and meant to be used with 3-way system. The GB15 is meant for 2-way and can cross in the 2k range.

As a test just increase the cross over and see if it goes away.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

jrwalte said:


> You may be crossing them too low. GB10 should really be 3k or higher and meant to be used with 3-way system. The GB15 is meant for 2-way and can cross in the 2k range.
> 
> As a test just increase the cross over and see if it goes away.


I would look at xover point. I thought I heard the gb10 were meant to be crossed over higher like with use of the mid. The larger tweeter was used in two way or with lower x over point. if you are at 2300 hz xover point, you may have to move to a large format


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

doubtful. make sure that crossover is at least a 24db slope. They GB10's can get pretty damn loud. Hell, anything in the GB line can get pretty damn loud.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> doubtful. make sure that crossover is at least a 24db slope. They GB10's can get pretty damn loud. Hell, anything in the GB line can get pretty damn loud.


It's a 24 for sure...


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Dave, If you have to attenuate the tweeters in the DSP that much than you have way too much gain on the amplifier and that is risky business for those GB10 which need 7 watts at best. Throw that DD1 thing away and never use that thing again for setting the gains on an amplifier to maximum for tweeters. Best thing to do is to maximize the signal strength out of the DSP to the amplifier and then use the gain on the amplifier to level match to your mid woofers. Lower noise floor and less chance for distortion to creep up with less amplifier gain and a stronger input signal is better for SQ. 

PM me and I can explain more and give you some good sources if you want.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

That's pretty low man


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## AVIDEDTR (Sep 11, 2008)

DavidRam said:


> It's a 24 for sure...


something else is wrong then.


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## Naptownsoldier1488 (Jul 9, 2016)

Is it an acoustic 24db or electric big diffrence also that is pretty low for the gb10 andy recomends no lower than 2500 24db on the gb10s should have gotten the gb15s


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Ok don't know why everyone is so sure the gb10 will play that low at the volume the OP wants. I can induce unpleasantness in my gb15 @2500hz if I try and keep up with my mb6. It almost goes there but the stress on the gb15 isn't what I want. Sure this is at concert level on jam songs bit who knows what level the OP wants


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

I forgot to add, this is not my first go around with these tweeters, it's actually my third...
I recently swapped my MiniDSP for a Helix Pro MK2 and also switched from Fiio M9 to a Fiio X5... 
With the previous set up I had the HP at 2,300, too, and it got much louder with no issues... Gains were set the same, etc.

PLUS, in my previous vehicle I had the same GB10s, also crossed at 2,300 and it got much louder. 
Basically, I have been able to turn up the previous systems to the distortion levels as noted on the DD1, with no issues. This set up is falling apart well below that...


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

I had GB10's,(on axis A-pillar) and I like to crank up the music, but the GB10's up loud could not handle being crossed lower than 3k, really they played best up loud crossed at HP 3.2k/24db.


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## jrwalte (Mar 27, 2008)

Are you positive you don't have any EQ boosting on the tweeters? Have you tried just increasing the cross over to 3kHz or higher to see if it helps?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

I am going to raise my crossovers to 2,500... I don't think the GS690s would want to go much higher than that, right?
Also, I am going to lower the gains on the tweets.

Damnit, I have spent a fair amount of time tuning and it sounds really good!


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

jrwalte said:


> Are you positive you don't have any EQ boosting on the tweeters? Have you tried just increasing the cross over to 3kHz or higher to see if it helps?


I double checked, there is zero boost on the tweeters... I can't cross them that high long term, but I will try it to see if makes a difference.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DavidRam said:


> I am going to raise my crossovers to 2,500... I don't think the GS690s would want to go much higher than that, right?
> Also, I am going to lower the gains on the tweets.
> 
> Damnit, I have spent a fair amount of time tuning and it sounds really good!


they will go higher. theyre meant to pair up to the gs10 tweeter which crosses at 3k or higher


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> they will go higher. theyre meant to pair up to the gs10 tweeter which crosses at 3k or higher


What do you think would be ideal?


Edit: Andy just said around 3k... 


When I had them crossed higher I was having some serious issues with localizing the 6x9s in the doors, and lowering the xover helped dramatically (that's why they were crossed so low).


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Naptownsoldier1488 said:


> Is it an acoustic 24db or electric big diffrence also that is pretty low for the gb10 andy recomends no lower than 2500 24db on the gb10s should have gotten the gb15s


Yeah I don't think GB15's would work too well in David's case. He's running the GB10's in his Grand Cherokee for a lot of the same reasons I ran them in mine. Looks are a HUGE reason and important to a lot of people. They literally look like factory tweeters in the sails with the perfect fit and chrome ring on the tweeter blending perfectly with the chrome accents in the cabin. I had mine at 2500 LR4 and was at 24db slope acoustically too. I had an available 80rms (or 100rms depending on which Zapco spec sheet you looked at) going to them and they rocked. I cut loose on several people at car audio meets with my gs690/gb10 front stage and it got LOUD and stayed clean.

Edit: just checked and the spec sheet on the gb10 says recommended crossover of 2500 with greater than 12db slope. It does appear to have an fs of around 1500hz though...


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Yeah I don't think GB15's would work too well in David's case. He's running the GB10's in his Grand Cherokee for a lot of the same reasons I ran them in mine. Looks are a HUGE reason and important to a lot of people. They literally look like factory tweeters in the sails with the perfect fit and chrome ring on the tweeter blending perfectly with the chrome accents in the cabin. I had mine at 2500 LR4 and was at 24db slope acoustically too. I had an available 80rms (or 100rms depending on which Zapco spec sheet you looked at) going to them and they rocked. I cut loose on several people at car audio meets with my gs690/gb10 front stage and it got LOUD and stayed clean.


Exactly.

We have/had almost the same exact equipment... That's why I am wondering if there is something else I am doing wrong here. I think I'll raise the xover incrementally and test it as I go... If I can get it to sound clean at 2,500, I'll leave it there. I will turn the gains down on the tweeters a tad, too, and raise the levels in the dsp like JC said. 

Like I said, it sounds great, I would just like to be able to safely turn it up a bit more.

Edit: If that doesn't work I'll just "slap some drywall screws in them"! That's my new favorite fix for any problem... I used to love zip-ties, but now it's drywall screws! LMAO


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Yeah your amps are different as I ran an ST-5x to sub, tweets, and rears and an ST-4x sq bridged to the 690's. And obviously your subs too. I'll tell you what though, at 2500 LR4 the gb10's kept up GREAT with the 690's being pushed hard on roughly 170x2 give or take a few watts. I do miss basically having 8" mids rocking the house. Several people at the last Bertholomy meet said they like my Grand Cherokee better than my truck even though my truck seems to stomp the Jeep on the technical stuff imo. The Jeep did seem to have a more spacious stage but then again we're comparing an SUV to a single cab truck. And was running L-R rearfill in the Jeep. It woulda made a great competition rig.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

apples and oranges...i have the GS690 in my crosstrek doors and the GB15's in the dash. I have my Helix DSP Mk2 gains all set to min, and then in the software i have my mids at 0db and my tweeters at -8db and I can play it loud enough to hurt my ears without any tweeter issues. XO is at 2650 i think. I need to fire up my computer to remember LOL.

At someone point i would love Skiezr to go thru it line by line and tune it properly, but so far no time


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

I have my GB10 crossed at 2500 Hz 24 db to a set of JL 5x7 C5 mids, which on paper are very similar to the GS690. Obviously every vehicle will have different circumstances but I also like to cross as low as possible to stay away from beaming of the mid woofer in a two way. 

Dont you have a three way with GB25 mids? If so than I would think 3k should be fine if they are crossing to the GB25.


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

you also could try 5000hz/12db instead of 2500hz/24db, might get some smoothness in 2500-3500hz and minimize some of the eq work in that region.

may have to flip the tweeters out of phase and/or re-integrate them with the midbasses though.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

JCsAudio said:


> I have my GB10 crossed at 2500 Hz 24 db to a set of JL 5x7 C5 mids, which on paper are very similar to the GS690. Obviously every vehicle will have different circumstances but I also like to cross as low as possible to stay away from beaming of the mid woofer in a two way.
> 
> Dont you have a three way with GB25 mids? If so than I would think 3k should be fine if they are crossing to the GB25.


The GB25s are rear fill... I'll start by raising them to 2500 and see what happens.


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## disconnected (May 10, 2017)

GB10 at 2.5khz at 24 db/octave crossover on the Helix DSP.s, Mosconi AS100.4, with 100 watts, used a oscope to get a non-clipped signal, 0db at 1khz. The sound was incredible, crisp, clear, clean, and transparent. REW test showed a nice curve from 3.15k to 16k before they rolled off.

Consider getting the tweeter tested.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

I raised my crossovers to 2,700 and lowered the amp gain on the tweeters a bit... It seems to have fixed the problem.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Well, I was mistaken... At the exact same place, -10.5 on the Director's volume, I still get a tiny little crackle from the passenger side.


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

try 5khz/12db instead


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

David, I just had an issue with my GB10 tweeters where the tweeter levels were all over the place during tuning and sometimes they would fade in and out in amplitude during my drive. I thought it was the amplifier but it turned out to be the set screw connections on the GB10 tweeters themselves not making full contact. You might want to check yours.


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

JCsAudio said:


> David, I just had an issue with my GB10 tweeters where the tweeter levels were all over the place during tuning and sometimes they would fade in and out in amplitude during my drive. I thought it was the amplifier but it turned out to be the set screw connections on the GB10 tweeters themselves not making full contact. You might want to check yours.


Try using a ferrule. I used them on my GB60's. I heard a lot of people were having issues with the set screws. You won't have to tighten down so hard with the use of ferrules.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Stycker said:


> Try using a ferrule. I used them on my GB60's. I heard a lot of people were having issues with the set screws. You won't have to tighten down so hard with the use of ferrules.


I initially did try ferrules but with the ones that I had the set screws cut right through them or bent them so much that I wasn't able to remove the wire afterwards and this was with little pressure tightening the screw. I found that taking some solder and tinning the ends did the trick and with that method I was able to tighten them down enough with the set screws and not cut the wire or bend it. I haven't had an issue with my GB15, GB60, or GB12 yet using that method (keeping fingers crossed).


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## Celiars (Aug 19, 2019)

nadams5755 said:


> try 5khz/12db instead


good idea


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DavidRam said:


> I raised my crossovers to 2,700 and lowered the amp gain on the tweeters a bit... It seems to have fixed the problem.


I am not sure you are fixing a problem... or even know what the problems is.
(A vague "crackle", is a symptom)

It seems like somewhat of a buccachi approach towards fixing symptoms... or I missed what the problem was?


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Holmz said:


> I am not sure you are fixing a problem... or even know what the problems is.
> 
> (A vague "crackle", is a symptom)
> 
> ...




You missed the point like you do in everything you inject useless info into. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Well, it seems nothing has changed... They are still distorting again at a volume that really isn't that loud. Around 13 on the Director (which I know is almost a useless point of reference). 
I need to figure this out, it's really bothering me.

Should I continue turning the amp gains down until I don't hear it?? I know for certain that I am set WAY below clipping right now...


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I may have missed it but have you put the tweeters on a different pair of amp channels to see what happens? Different amp entirely? Different processor channels? Narrow down all possible causes upstream. My gb10's in my Grand Cherokee were screamers and begged for more while staying crystal clear crossed at 2500 LR4. The ST-5x ii was sending them 80rms each (or 100rms each depending on if you looked at the Zapco website or amp owners manual)so about the same power yours are getting with the XP.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I may have missed it but have you put the tweeters on a different pair of amp channels to see what happens? Different amp entirely? Different processor channels? Narrow down all possible causes upstream. My gb10's in my Grand Cherokee were screamers and begged for more while staying crystal clear crossed at 2500 LR4. The ST-5x ii was sending them 80rms each (or 100rms each depending on if you looked at the Zapco website or amp owners manual)so about the same power yours are getting with the XP.


Well, I thought if I just had the issue in one tweeter it could be the amp channel, but it's happening in both at the same place... I don't have another amp to test with. 

My xo are at 2800


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

I didn't read the whole thread, but could it be the song or is it happening on multiple songs.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Niebur3 said:


> I didn't read the whole thread, but could it be the song or is it happening on multiple songs.


I thought it could be a ****ty recording on that particular song, but it is happening on a number of songs. Admittedly, I am usually hearing it with hip-hop and reggaeton type music. But I will try it using known good records like Michael Jackson Thriller hi-res from HDTracks...

Even then though, I have never had this issue with other speakers at this low of a volume with this music. I mean it's loud-ish when it happens, but not nearly as loud as you'd expect they could go. It's a loud that any of you guys could listen to for an extended period of time.


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## javcolin (Nov 12, 2018)

Have you tried to rever polarity and see in case you have it wrongly or not in phase.? As other suggest could be the amp so using any other amps for testing purposes only would tell you what's the deal with the gb10's


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

javcolin said:


> Have you tried to rever polarity and see in case you have it wrongly or not in phase.? As other suggest could be the amp so using any other amps for testing purposes only would tell you what's the deal with the gb10's


Yes, I checked this as well...


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Good news and bad news:

*The good news:*
There is seemingly nothing technically wrong with my tweeters or amp.
I just listened to a couple songs that I know are recorded well and are hi-res from HDTracks... MJ - Thriller album goes to 3.5 (clipping point) on the Director with zero distortion, and the same on Bob Marley - Legend, Dire Straights - On Every Street, etc..

*The bad news:*
I have come to the realization, that after all this work and money invested, my system does not get quite as loud as I want it to.  This equipment will not be going into the Trackhawk after all. ****.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

DavidRam said:


> Good news and bad news:
> 
> *The good news:*
> There is seemingly nothing technically wrong with my tweeters or amp.
> ...


and the BEST news--

you get to DESIGN and BUILD another whole new, even more awesome, system from scratch!!!! LOL!!!


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

seafish said:


> and the BEST news--
> 
> you get to DESIGN and BUILD another whole new, even more awesome, system from scratch!!!! LOL!!!


Haha! But I keep doing this over and over... :blush:


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Might be time to try horns and high efficiency midbass


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## javcolin (Nov 12, 2018)

DavidRam said:


> seafish said:
> 
> 
> > and the BEST news--
> ...


Well, eventually you will get it right. Lol. Go beryllium tweeters and hi efficiency mids. Like scanspeak 18Wu or even 18W revelators. Won't disappoint you


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

javcolin said:


> Well, eventually you will get it right. Lol. Go beryllium tweeters and hi efficiency mids. Like scanspeak 18Wu or even 18W revelators. Won't disappoint you


I hope so! Lol


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DavidRam said:


> Good news and bad news:
> 
> *The good news:*
> There is seemingly nothing technically wrong with my tweeters or amp.
> ...


What does ^this^ mean?
Is the crackle happening in the digital stage?
If so the turn the digital gain down, and turn up the gain knob at the amp(s).

Or is there some other limiter?
Or where is the clipping happening?

I am assuming that they are running active, but the photos from earlier looked liked passive covers??


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Holmz said:


> What does ^this^ mean?
> Is the crackle happening in the digital stage?
> If so the turn the digital gain down, and turn up the gain knob at the amp(s).
> 
> ...


Active. I don't know what you mean regarding the digital vs amp gain...

The tweeters distortion is happening with loud or poorly recorded songs and NOT happening with HQ recordings... My gains are set with a DD1 and then lowered for the tweeters. 

Overall, I want more output, my system as is does not get loud enough for me.


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## jrwalte (Mar 27, 2008)

To get louder i don't think you need new speakers. You have good ones. But you need more power and you may want to go 3 way with the gb25 so each speaker can play, with more power, in a freq range they good for.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

I smell AudioFrog gear about to go on sale, sniff, sniff. Too bad I don’t have classifieds access.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

jrwalte said:


> To get louder i don't think you need new speakers. You have good ones. But you need more power and you may want to go 3 way with the gb25 so each speaker can play, with more power, in a freq range they good for.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


2018 Jeep GC - AF GB10s, GB25s, GS690s, Zapco & Mosconi amps, (2) AF GB12s, Helix Pro MK2 & Director, Fiio X5

Dave, your sig shows GB25's. Are you running 2-way or 3-way?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

jrwalte said:


> To get louder i don't think you need new speakers. You have good ones. But you need more power and you may want to go 3 way with the gb25 so each speaker can play, with more power, in a freq range they good for.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Is it my amp loosing steam or the speakers? The amp measures 104 wrms per channel... Shouldn't that be able to almost make my ears bleed with tweeters as efficient as these?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Niebur3 said:


> 2018 Jeep GC - AF GB10s, GB25s, GS690s, Zapco & Mosconi amps, (2) AF GB12s, Helix Pro MK2 & Director, Fiio X5
> 
> Dave, your sig shows GB25's. Are you running 2-way or 3-way?


2way. The GB25s and Mosconi Pico2 are rear fill.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

JCsAudio said:


> I smell AudioFrog gear about to go on sale, sniff, sniff. Too bad I don’t have classifieds access.


Damn, I really don't want to... I keep thinking there has got to be something wrong and these GBs should be able to give me more than this. But if this is as loud as it gets, then I'll have to make some changes.

Keep in mind this Jeeps for sale and will be followed by the Trackhawk. The TH will be even more in need of output as it's a much louder (engine, supercharger, exhaust, tires, etc) Jeep than my current, well deadened v6.


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

might be time for a reset on the tune, crossovers and all.

or reach out for some tuning help in the LA area.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DavidRam said:


> Active. I don't know what you mean regarding the digital vs amp gain...
> 
> The tweeters distortion is happening with loud or poorly recorded songs and NOT happening with HQ recordings... My gains are set with a DD1 and then lowered for the tweeters.
> 
> Overall, I want more output, my system as is does not get loud enough for me.


First off you have done well to outline that the effect is only seen on poor recordings and not using HQ recordings. This is something much more tangible to go off of.

I do not know your amp and DSP, but if well recorded songs are not clipping, and if poorly recorded songs are clipping, then it could be that the digital gain is too high... maybe the DD1 needs to be lowered and the gain pot on the amp cranked up?
(i.e. One could start with having any gain pots on the amps turned up louder.)

If the good recordings are louder, and still sound good, then we have some place to start.
Even better would SPL with only the tweeter and/or midrange powered. You should be able to get in the low to mid 90s in dB(A) ignoring any subwoofer stage playing.
I would expect the tweeter stage alone to give >90 dB(A) ... and with the MR playing as well, it should be more like 95 to 100 dB(A) before any clipping.

Any subwoofer only adds more.

And if one can tolerate some modest clipping then those numbers can go at least 5dB higher, or more, before one starts to notice it.

I suspect that the poor recordings are operating with the digital signal clipping.
Since the HQ recording are not clipping/distorted... then just turn it up to 11.

Once the HQ gets sorted out, then working the low quality is another step.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Yeah, I think something is off with your system. Both my two ways using GB tweeters will get uncomfortably loud. Could be your loud threshold is much high than mine though I guess. 

How much did you have to reduce the gain from 0 in the DSP for the tweeters?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

nadams5755 said:


> might be time for a reset on the tune, crossovers and all.
> 
> or reach out for some tuning help in the LA area.


Yes, I'm gonna try a different tune and see what happens... 



Holmz said:


> First off you have done well to outline that the effect is only seen on poor recordings and not using HQ recordings. This is something much more tangible to go off of.
> 
> I do not know your amp and DSP, but if well recorded songs are not clipping, and if poorly recorded songs are clipping, then it could be that the digital gain is too high... maybe the DD1 needs to be lowered and the gain pot on the amp cranked up?
> (i.e. One could start with having any gain pots on the amps turned up louder.)
> ...


With the HQ recordings, I get the feeling it could go louder... In all my other cars, the same lower quality songs were able to be turned up much louder without distortion. 



JCsAudio said:


> Yeah, I think something is off with your system. Both my two ways using GB tweeters will get uncomfortably loud. Could be your loud threshold is much high than mine though I guess.
> 
> How much did you have to reduce the gain from 0 in the DSP for the tweeters?


I agree. I don't know off the top of my head...

I am going to start a new tune: set crossovers around 3k like Andy recommended, get rid of all the EQ, then just T/A and level match and see how loud it will go on the exact same songs...

I don't think my threshold for loud is crazy high... However, I do love to drive with all my windows down at 50-60 mph and still hear and feel the music.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I'd go ahead and move the Frog stuff over to the Trackhawk but include the gb25 with the front stage. And maybe add MOAR POWER.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I'd go ahead and move the Frog stuff over to the Trackhawk but include the gb25 with the front stage. And maybe add MOAR POWER.


But I am starting to get an itch to try to build a system with components NOT made in China... 

Mmats amps = USA, Brahma sub = USA, Morel 2 way = Israel or Dynaudio = Denmark, etc..


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

DavidRam said:


> Yes, I'm gonna try a different tune and see what happens...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


David, if you are reducing your gain in the DSP something like 6 db than you have your amplifier gain set too high. I would suggest to reduce the gain in the DSP to -1 or 0 and then level match the tweeters to your mids with the amplifier gain instead. This reduces noise and the potential to cause damage to the tweeters if something goes wrong and you don’t have a protective cap on them. Setting gains with a DD1 for an amplifier driving tweeters is useless and in my opinion causes noise issues and raises the noise floor where you’ll likely hear it the most.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

JCsAudio said:


> David, if you are reducing your gain in the DSP something like 6 db than you have your amplifier gain set too high. I would suggest to reduce the gain in the DSP to -1 or 0 and then level match the tweeters to your mids with the amplifier gain instead. This reduces noise and the potential to cause damage to the tweeters if something goes wrong and you don’t have a protective cap on them. Setting gains with a DD1 for an amplifier driving tweeters is useless and in my opinion causes noise issues and raises the noise floor where you’ll likely hear it the most.


I did take your advise on that earlier in this thread... and I will re-visit it when I trouble shoot again. My tweeter channels gain is lower than the mids by a few dBs IIRC, as the mids needed lots of EQ.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

DavidRam said:


> But I am starting to get an itch to try to build a system with components NOT made in China...
> 
> Mmats amps = USA, Brahma sub = USA, Morel 2 way = Israel or Dynaudio = Denmark, etc..


Can't blame you there. Hey, since you're German what about going all German?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Can't blame you there. Hey, since you're German what about going all German?


I'm too cheap for all German! Lol


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

DavidRam said:


> I did take your advise on that earlier in this thread... and I will re-visit it when I trouble shoot again. My tweeter channels gain is lower than the mids by a few dBs IIRC, as the mids needed lots of EQ.


Opps, sorry Dave. I forgot about that. I hear you on the EQ for the mids. I always struggled on this too and then SkizeR pointed out in a thread one day how much easier it is to tune a three way vs two way and it all made sense to me at that point. I think this is especially true if you’re trying to stay away from boost like me. 

With my GB60 I get a nasty null at about 500 Hz and the only way I can reduce its affect is to EQ everything down around it and then match the left and right so that nothing pulls to one side when playing in that frequency. The main thing that is keeping me from getting a nice set of midrange speakers and going three way now is the lack of time I have. It would take me a lot of time to fabricate something for those mids and changing all the wiring and amplifiers to make it work. 

I think if you can (and I know with your skill you can) you should use those GB25 as midrange speakers in a three way front stage. Now that you are acquiring the best Jeep you can get why not treat it with the best front stage you can get too.

I’m no longer going to be that sensible little :angel: ? on your shoulder trying to convince you to hold back. :devil:


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

JCsAudio said:


> Opps, sorry Dave. I forgot about that. I hear you on the EQ for the mids. I always struggled on this too and then SkizeR pointed out in a thread one day how much easier it is to tune a three way vs two way and it all made sense to me at that point. I think this is especially true if you’re trying to stay away from boost like me.
> 
> With my GB60 I get a nasty null at about 500 Hz and the only way I can reduce its affect is to EQ everything down around it and then match the left and right so that nothing pulls to one side when playing in that frequency. The main thing that is keeping me from getting a nice set of midrange speakers and going three way now is the lack of time I have. It would take me a lot of time to fabricate something for those mids and changing all the wiring and amplifiers to make it work.
> 
> ...


Lol! Ok, then... My driver side mid especially, is a hot mess and has been very challenging to EQ. My current tune, which sounds really good, has been countless hours in the making. 

I was always under the impression that a 3 way is more difficult to tune, than a 2 way. 

My first really good system was an active 3way with HAT Legatia Pro components, but Jim Becker tuned it, so I don't know how hard or easy it was. 

Today, after having lots of different set ups, my preference is 2way with rear fill. However, I have never done a 3 way with rear fill (yes, still referring to car audio! Lol).

In my personal life, a 3 way is an option, but rear fill is absolutely off limits!! :laugh:


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

DavidRam said:


> Lol! Ok, then... My driver side mid especially is a hot mess, and has been very challenging to EQ. My current tune, which sounds really good, has been countless hours in the making.
> 
> I was always under the impression that a 3 way is more difficult to tune, than a 2 way.


One reason tuning a three way is easier (I’ve tried it) is because you are able to use each driver with a narrower passband and if done correctly within its limits of dispersion (driver beaming) makes EQ much easier. If each driver has wide dispersion because you LP well below driver beaming than the reflected sounds within the vehicle resemble the direct sounds and it’s much easier to EQ a driver when the reflected sounds picked up by the microphone are similar to the direct sounds. If you LP a midwoofer too much above where it starts to beam than those reflected sounds become less similar to the direct sounds and with a midbass on the left 60-degrees off axis down low in the door this is hard to avoid with a LP of say 2500 or 3000 Hz. 

In your case you can bandpass the GS690 from 80-300 Hz. This makes EQ for that driver a cinch. With the GB25 you can bandpass them from 300 to 2500 Hz. This is well within the beaming limits of a 2.5” driver so the reflected sounds are very similar to the direct sounds and correcting with EQ becomes easier even if the driver is off axis. Because the GB10 would be high passed at 2500 Hz or so than again it will have wide dispersion and EQ for most tweeters is easy anyway. 

So by adding the GB25 into the mix you are asking the GS690 to do only midbass duty where the radiating sounds propagate widely and evenly and there are less issues with their location in the doors panels. You would only be asking the GB25 to disperse between 300 and 2500 Hz where this driver does best with very wide dispersion and likely locating it up higher so tuning that driver to do midrange duty would be easier than asking the GS690 to do both. 

Then there is the argument that with an additional channel you have an additional channel in the DSP with its own EQ channels to spread out over a narrower range. 

Make sense?



DavidRam said:


> In my personal life, a 3 way is an option, but rear fill is absolutely off limits!! :laugh:


As for the three way we’ll I guess it depends on if it’s a he or she and that my friend is too much info! :laugh:


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

JCsAudio said:


> One reason tuning a three way is easier (I’ve tried it) is because you are able to use each driver with a narrower passband and if done correctly within its limits of dispersion (driver beaming) makes EQ much easier. If each driver has wide dispersion because you LP well below driver beaming than the reflected sounds within the vehicle resemble the direct sounds and it’s much easier to EQ a driver when the reflected sounds picked up by the microphone are similar to the direct sounds. If you LP a midwoofer too much above where it starts to beam than those reflected sounds become less similar to the direct sounds and with a midbass on the left 60-degrees off axis down low in the door this is hard to avoid with a LP of say 2500 or 3000 Hz.
> 
> In your case you can bandpass the GS690 from 80-300 Hz. This makes EQ for that driver a cinch. With the GB25 you can bandpass them from 300 to 2500 Hz. This is well within the beaming limits of a 2.5” driver so the reflected sounds are very similar to the direct sounds and correcting with EQ becomes easier even if the driver is off axis. Because the GB10 would be high passed at 2500 Hz or so than again it will have wide dispersion and EQ for most tweeters is easy anyway.
> 
> ...


Well, you make some excellent points!!! Maybe the Trackhawk should get a 3way plus rear fill...


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Mwu ha ha ha, spend it all! Spend all of it. :devil:

:laugh::laugh:


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DavidRam said:


> But I am starting to get an itch to try to build a system with components NOT made in China...
> 
> Mmats amps = USA, Brahma sub = USA, Morel 2 way = Israel or Dynaudio = Denmark, etc..


It seems like you have fine components and just a bad tune.
I would not suggest replacing anything until you have someone get what is already installed working correctly.




DavidRam said:


> Well, you make some excellent points!!! Maybe the Trackhawk should get a 3way plus rear fill...


Is a "3-way +rear" fill a lot easier to tune than the 2-way that does not seem to be tuned well?


Here you go:



JCsAudio said:


> David, if you are reducing your gain in the DSP something like 6 db than you have your amplifier gain set too high. I would suggest to reduce the gain in the DSP to -1 or 0 and then level match the tweeters to your mids with the amplifier gain instead. This reduces noise and the potential to cause damage to the tweeters if something goes wrong and you don’t have a protective cap on them. Setting gains with a DD1 for an amplifier driving tweeters is useless and in my opinion causes noise issues and raises the noise floor where you’ll likely hear it the most.


I think that the amps need to be turned up, but ^JC says^ turn down.
You might as well try doing both and seeing if anything happens.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Do you adjust the volume of a source unit once the director is set?? If so I suspect your helix inputs are being slightly overloaded and a little bit of digital clipping is occurring, I had the exact same thing with mine until I dropped the volume going in a touch, it’s did just what you describe, normally on recordings that weren’t the best, might be worth a try just to see if it improves the situation, just turn the source down by a click or drop the input gains in the helix a touch


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Holmz said:


> It seems like you have fine components and just a bad tune.
> I would not suggest replacing anything until you have someone get what is already installed working correctly.
> 
> 
> ...


When I first started this thread my amps were at max before clipping, set with a DD1... I turned the gains down to see if that fixed the issue, which it didn't. 



dumdum said:


> Do you adjust the volume of a source unit once the director is set?? If so I suspect your helix inputs are being slightly overloaded and a little bit of digital clipping is occurring, I had the exact same thing with mine until I dropped the volume going in a touch, it’s did just what you describe, normally on recordings that weren’t the best, might be worth a try just to see if it improves the situation, just turn the source down by a click or drop the input gains in the helix a touch


My source is a Fiio X5 connected directly to the Helix via coax. The Helix Director is my volume.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

You mentioned liking to drive with the windows down. That can really tax a system. I still say you're the perfect candidate for higher efficiency speakers ESPECIALLY with a vehicle that's already a screamer on the horizon.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> You mentioned liking to drive with the windows down. That can really tax a system. I still say you're the perfect candidate for higher efficiency speakers ESPECIALLY with a vehicle that's already a screamer on the horizon.


I think so... 

Sitting in the Jeep with the windows closed, it is quite loud before the distortion. Though, still not as loud as I think it should be.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Yeah I never drive windows down. Can't stand the wind in my face. I do like to crank up 90's grunge, metal, and alternative (music of my generation) and want to put the squeeze on mine to get as much as possible out of it but already gets pretty loud.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DavidRam said:


> When I first started this thread my amps were at max before clipping, set with a DD1... I turned the gains down to see if that fixed the issue, which it didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> My source is a Fiio X5 connected directly to the Helix via coax. The Helix Director is my volume.


I would be surprised if those AF don't get loud enough to cause hearing damage.
I suspect that something in the tune needs attention, before throwing away the speakers.
And I suspect it is digital input gain too high, and amp gain too low.

If the amps are all the way down, then the only way to turn them now is up. And you might as well go all the way for starters.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Holmz said:


> I would be surprised if those AF don't get loud enough to cause hearing damage.
> I suspect that something in the tune needs attention, before throwing away the speakers.
> And I suspect it is digital input gain too high, and amp gain too low.
> 
> If the amps are all the way down, then the only way to turn them now is up. And you might as well go all the way for starters.


The amps aren't all the way down, the tweeter channels were at their max pre-clipping and I turned them down a little bit from their... I don't know what digital input gain is??

So I removed all EQ and I think that is where the loss of output was - too much EQ cuts... 
It was too late last night to crank it up on the songs I know were distorting, but I'll check them and report back. 

This Jeep has been quite difficult to tune... I am very close to taking this Helix DSP out and selling it, apparently I am not smart enough to tune with it.


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

I wish I was closer, but you’re welcome to head up to San Jose area if you want. See if we can tackle this


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

nadams5755 said:


> I wish I was closer, but you’re welcome to head up to San Jose area if you want. See if we can tackle this


Thanks!! Very cool of you, and I do like NorCal! 

I just keep thinking that MiniDSP and DIRAC is more my speed and I have not enjoyed this Helix since day one. For guys who are really smart and experienced it's an incredible machine, but I am not one of those guys! Lol


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

nadams5755 said:


> I wish I was closer, but you’re welcome to head up to San Jose area if you want. See if we can tackle this


Do this

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

Locoface/yacdiel is much closer. Don’t start replacing equipment yet.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DavidRam said:


> The amps aren't all the way down, the tweeter channels were at their max pre-clipping and I turned them down a little bit from their... I don't know what digital input gain is??
> ...


Max on the amp, or max in the Helix?
I am not sure what defines a a Helix' digital gain.




DavidRam said:


> ...
> So I removed all EQ and I think that is where the loss of output was - too much EQ cuts...
> It was too late last night to crank it up on the songs I know were distorting, but I'll check them and report back.
> ...


^That^ is a plan of attack.




DavidRam said:


> ...
> This Jeep has been quite difficult to tune... I am very close to taking this Helix DSP out and selling it, apparently I am not smart enough to tune with it.


I believe ^you are correct^.
(I don't have a Helix so I can only guess as to how smart one needs to be.)

You have also talked about selling the AF gear, you can PM me about all of it, but do not layer in "not being smart enough to tune it", with an additional... "not being smart enough to keep it".
Just find someone that knows what they are doing.

On the other hand you started with a vague "crackle", and now have more solid ground to work from... at this point you should be pretty close with someone showing you.


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

Hi you can PM me if you need any help tackling this down. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Don't give up so fast on the Helix. Learning how to use this gear - and use it properly - takes time and practice. Keep chipping away at it and don't give up. You'll eventually get there.

I'm going through the learning phase myself. Started with a Rockford Fosgate DSR-1 (first ever DSP) and just got my Helix DSP.3 in the mail today. I've been working at the DSR-1 for months and just now finally got a tune that I'm pretty happy with (figures I'd get it right right after I ordered a Helix!). However, now I'm going to upgrade to the DSP.3 and most likely get even better results. 

Rome wasn't built in a day.  I'm learning that this car audio tuning takes a LOT of effort - but the results are *so* worth it. I was to the point where I was going to take it someone to get tuned, but I'm glad that I didn't. The problem is that just because the tune sounds good to the person tuning it, doesn't mean that it will sound good to you.  Plus, if you learn how to do it yourself, you'll be able to retune things in the future when you upgrade speakers, or get a new car, etc...


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

nadams5755 said:


> I wish I was closer, but you’re welcome to head up to San Jose area if you want. See if we can tackle this





nadams5755 said:


> Locoface/yacdiel is much closer. Don’t start replacing equipment yet.





locoface said:


> Hi you can PM me if you need any help tackling this down.


This, this, THIS is what I love about our CA SQ community. Both of these guys are fresh off the road (or perhaps even still on the road) of a grueling road trip and weekend at Finals, and they're reaching to help others with their tune. 

I would definitely reach out to Yacdiel, as he is closer to you. I know he is familiar with most of what you're using and should be able to help get you sorted. And, as busy as he is, it might be worth reaching out to Andy. He isn't too far from you anyway.


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

closest i got this month was bakersfield. last month was universal city (i think it's closer than riverside but i guess that counts as well)


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Guys, thanks a lot! There are a bunch of awesome guys on here, that have been so helpful to me. Much appreciated!
It's why it sucks to see this place go down the ****ter...

I really do need to learn this stuff for myself... It's not that I don't know how to tune, as my previous two cars were tuned by me. This Jeep has been challenging for me, and the Helix has a difficult learning curve, too. This dsp definitely won't be going in my next car! Lol

So, it's official - *the cause of the loss of output was due to all the EQ cuts* and now with zero EQ the tweeters get painfully loud with no distortion. I might do two tunes, windows open HO, windows closed SQ...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DavidRam said:


> Guys, thanks a lot! There are a bunch of awesome guys on here, that have been so helpful to me. Much appreciated!
> 
> It's why it sucks to see this place go down the ****ter...
> 
> ...


What about it dont you like? Do you want me to walk you through it again to show you how to take advantage of what it has to offer?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> What about it dont you like? Do you want me to walk you through it again to show you how to take advantage of what it has to offer?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


It's probably me, more than it... It's just annoyingly complicated. Bottom line is, my previous set-ups with the MiniDSP sounded better than this... Not because the Helix isn't infinitely more capable, but because I am having a hard time using it. The MiniDSP was just my speed, I guess, and now with the 8x12 and dirac, I wish I would have gone that direction...  

The other night I spent 20 minutes trying to figure out how to save a tune to the Director, and still couldn't figure it out.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

You have my number. You're more than welcome to call me for help. I told you this months ago lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> You have my number. You're more than welcome to call me for help. I told you this months ago lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Yes, and you are awesome. Thank you! I still haven't been able to get Wifi in my garage, or I would have you remote tune it...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DavidRam said:


> Yes, and you are awesome. Thank you! I still haven't been able to get Wifi in my garage, or I would have you remote tune it...


Do you have a computer system?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

jtrosky said:


> Don't give up so fast on the Helix. Learning how to use this gear - and use it properly - takes time and practice. Keep chipping away at it and don't give up. You'll eventually get there.
> 
> I'm going through the learning phase myself. Started with a Rockford Fosgate DSR-1 (first ever DSP) and just got my Helix DSP.3 in the mail today. I've been working at the DSR-1 for months and just now finally got a tune that I'm pretty happy with (figures I'd get it right right after I ordered a Helix!). However, now I'm going to upgrade to the DSP.3 and most likely get even better results.
> 
> Rome wasn't built in a day.  I'm learning that this car audio tuning takes a LOT of effort - but the results are *so* worth it. I was to the point where I was going to take it someone to get tuned, but I'm glad that I didn't. The problem is that just because the tune sounds good to the person tuning it, doesn't mean that it will sound good to you.  Plus, if you learn how to do it yourself, you'll be able to retune things in the future when you upgrade speakers, or get a new car, etc...


Yep, you are absolutely correct! I have been trying to learn to tune for 5 years now! Lol! This is my 4th active, DSP driven system. I should have it figured out just before I loose my hearing from old age!! :blush:


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Do you have a computer system?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


*No, I tune with an abacus*




















Lol! I have numerous laptops!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DavidRam said:


> *No, I tune with an abacus*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mean sound system you dingaling 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I've never used a MiniDSP, but while reviewing the Helix DSP Tool software while waiting for my DSP.3 to arrive (it's here!), I actually thought that the interface was pretty clean and laid out well.  It's seems like VERY powerful software with lots of options, which is "my thing" though. I love having lots of "dials and switches" and love exploring every option in software (I'm a Unix guy by trade, so I'm used to doing everything via command-line interfaces - so any GUI seems not-so-complex in comparison!). So I guess it just all depends on the type of person that it using the software. Everyone is different.

Then again, I haven't *actually* used the Helix yet, so maybe my opion will change after I actually try using it in real life. 

I'm coming from a Rockford Fosgate DSR-1, which while the user interface (only runs on phones/tablets) is very "simple", it's acutally pretty powerful (full 31-band-parametric-EQ-per-channel, etc). So maybe the DSR-1 was a good "primer" for me leading in to the more advanced Helix. 

But all DSP's do the same basic functions - channel routing, levels, crossovers, time alignment and EQ - right?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> I mean sound system you dingaling
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


:laugh:

I have laptops. I have a sound system. What do you mean?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

So here is a general question:

How do I EQ a system with significant dips, without boosting too much and cutting too much to where I loose a ton of output??


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Its a game of compromise.


I recently helped the owner of that Flex I built, swap from an MS-8 to Helix DSP.3. We tuned it remotely.


Nick is far better at tuning than I am, I'm sure he'd do better than I could with a remote tune. But really, as long as you measure accurately and with a good process, average correctly (not hard), set a house curve that appeals to your taste (I start with Hanatsu and go from there), it sorta usually just falls into place. There's always some extra tweaking to be had, but it usually ends up 90% good to go.


You have killer equipment, and your install technique is amazing. So you're right there.




edit: Sometimes a dip should just be left alone. Sometimes you can't combat what the car is doing. Some steep dips and recoveries in a narrow band of frequencies is not audible. Sometimes you just have to forgive a dip and minimize it rather than try to kill all around it to compensate.


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

DavidRam said:


> So here is a general question:
> 
> How do I EQ a system with significant dips, without boosting too much and cutting too much to where I loose a ton of output??


First you need to figure out what is causing those dips on the FR and are they actually audible without any EQ. Is it an install issue? Is it an axis issue? Is it a vehicle doing something weird issue?

Then figure out if those dips respond to EQ, try boosting for a small amount of time and see if the dip goes up by the same you boost. Ex. boost 5db, does the dip go up by 5db? If the FR does increase roughly the same, then boost however much you feel comfortable with and then cut the other side to match.

If it does, then you can boost that slightly, if it does not, then you can't boost it and it is best to cut the other side to match it. 

Once you figure out what dips can and can't be fixed, you can set your overall target level based on what can be fixed. I don't go down to the lowest dip that can't be fixed because then I cut too much and it can't be fixed anyway. I set the target level slightly above the lowest dip that can be fixed and tune for that level.


You were probably hearing distortion at higher volumes because you over boosted some FR that couldn't be fixed because it is a vehicle issue not speaker, that then caused the tweeter to be pushed too hard at that frequency. 

Examples:
I have a dip in my FR at 400hz. It is due to my center console on my 6.5" door mounted mids. I also have a quick fall off from my doors around 90hz (like 36db/oct) and have figured out it is something with the door card because if I remove it and measure, it doesn't happen. 

I can't boost those and get any results that are helpful, it just hurts everything. So I work around them by matching the left and right side. I will eventually install a mid on the a-pillar to fix the 400hz completely, but that is the only way to fix it.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

DavidRam said:


> So here is a general question:
> 
> How do I EQ a system with significant dips, without boosting too much and cutting too much to where I loose a ton of output??


I'm far from one of the better tuners adound here, but narrow dips can often be ignored. Especially if you can't hear it. 

It might also be helpful to see an actual FR measurement to help assess the peaks and dips. In some instances, you bring the higher stuff down to meet the level of a broad dip in response. That can also present the opportunity to bring the channel level up a little higher to get you back to the same output.


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## Jeffdachefz (Sep 14, 2016)

My buddy's mustang with a 6th order walled trunk that does a 148 db on the dash with a few 6.5s has those gb10s keeping up great with a good tune as well, he can turn off the tune and the tweeters just get earbleeding painful. idk It could be poor car acoustics in general. I found it was pretty hard to get good SQ in my buddy's jeep patriot due to the shape of the dash and interiors, caused a lot of dips and spikes out of our control even with heavy dsp action.

what frequencies are dipping and what frequencies are too much as of now?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Lanson said:


> Its a game of compromise.
> 
> 
> I recently helped the owner of that Flex I built, swap from an MS-8 to Helix DSP.3. We tuned it remotely.
> ...


This is what I have been learning ^^^. On my current tune (the one that killed output), I went for super flat response... It sounds very good. But I am not going to forfeit output for it. I'll have to find that compromise tune. 



jdunk54nl said:


> First you need to figure out what is causing those dips on the FR and are they actually audible without any EQ. Is it an install issue? Is it an axis issue? Is it a vehicle doing something weird issue?
> 
> Then figure out if those dips respond to EQ, try boosting for a small amount of time and see if the dip goes up by the same you boost. Ex. boost 5db, does the dip go up by 5db? If the FR does increase roughly the same, then boost however much you feel comfortable with and then cut the other side to match.
> 
> ...


Thanks! You make some great points! I do have some boost in some of the lows...



rton20s said:


> I'm far from one of the better tuners adound here, but narrow dips can often be ignored. Especially if you can't hear it.
> 
> It might also be helpful to see an actual FR measurement to help assess the peaks and dips. In some instances, you bring the higher stuff down to meet the level of a broad dip in response. That can also present the opportunity to bring the channel level up a little higher to get you back to the same output.


I did think about bringing the channel levels up to see what happens to output vs. distortion. 



Jeffdachefz said:


> My buddy's mustang with a 6th order walled trunk that does a 148 db on the dash with a few 6.5s has those gb10s keeping up great with a good tune as well, he can turn off the tune and the tweeters just get earbleeding painful. idk It could be poor car acoustics in general. I found it was pretty hard to get good SQ in my buddy's jeep patriot due to the shape of the dash and interiors, caused a lot of dips and spikes out of our control even with heavy dsp action.
> 
> what frequencies are dipping and what frequencies are too much as of now?



I'll have to take some measurements, I don't remember off the top of my head... Mid bass is all over the place though.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DavidRam said:


> I did think about bringing the channel levels up to see what happens to output vs. distortion.


this is why i think you need to go meet up with Nick Adams or Chuck (locoface). Gain structure is not something you just play around with to see what works when you have a dsp and separate source in your system. Go see one of these guys and have them set your dsp's input gain, match the output gain, and amps gain, then tune. I think you're going about all of this in a way that is setting you back and getting you frustrated. Thats not good for anybody


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I watched that cat animation for like 5 min. lol


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Lanson said:


> I watched that cat animation for like 5 min. lol


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> this is why i think you need to go meet up with Nick Adams or Chuck (locoface). Gain structure is not something you just play around with to see what works when you have a dsp and separate source in your system. Go see one of these guys and have them set your dsp's input gain, match the output gain, and amps gain, then tune. I think you're going about all of this in a way that is setting you back and getting you frustrated. Thats not good for anybody


Agreed. I also have Jim Becker (BigRed) near me... Where do I find the input gain on the dsp?



Lanson said:


> I watched that cat animation for like 5 min. lol


Kinda hypnotic, right?!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DavidRam said:


> Agreed. I also have Jim Becker (BigRed) near me... Where do I find the input gain on the dsp?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In the manual  lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> In the manual  lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Side note: Aren't you supposed to be banned by now


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

jdunk54nl said:


> Side note: Aren't you supposed to be banned by now


They refuse to answer my emails about a refund

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> In the manual  lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I guess I'll never know then... Lmao!


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

Dave, other than using an RTA (simple phone type or real fancy ones), be sure to use some audio test discs/tracks (test tones) to verify the levels or curve smoothness plus other general placements/items. Then there are some familiar music samples to try too on some test discs.

Everybody lets sing Spanish Harlem!! There is a rose in Spanish Harlem.... 
This song should stick in our heads for the entire day today. Yaay… There Is A Rose In Spanish Harlem.... 

If we don't like it, try that Small Small World song from Disneyland and it will re-run in our heads for the entire day too (it's not on any test disc, but half the people here probably will re-run this too lol)


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DavidRam said:


> ... Where do I find the input gain on the dsp?
> .../QUOTE]
> 
> Don't swap out the AF, Helix and amps... just swap out the tuner.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

DavidRam said:


> ...
> .../QUOTE]
> 
> Don't swap out the AF, Helix and amps... just swap out the tuner.


Hey now. Not to toot my own horn, but I have tuned some very good sounding cars, it's just that me and the Helix don't have a good working relationship AND this Jeep is proving to be a more difficult platform than my previous cars.

Also, there is nothing wrong with the AF gear, it performs very well. My best sounding self-tuned car was my previous Mazda with AF GB10s, AF GS60s, AF GS40s for rear fill, same Zapco amps and a MiniDSP. 

On my next build in the Trackhawk, I will use the same AF gear except I'll get the MiniDSP 8x12 with dirac live.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DavidRam said:


> Hey now. Not to toot my own horn, but I have tuned some very good sounding cars, it's just that me and the Helix don't have a good working relationship AND this Jeep is proving to be a more difficult platform than my previous cars.
> 
> Also, there is nothing wrong with the AF gear, it performs very well. My best sounding self-tuned car was my previous Mazda with AF GB10s, AF GS60s, AF GS40s for rear fill, same Zapco amps and a MiniDSP.
> 
> On my next build in the Trackhawk, I will use the same AF gear except I'll get the MiniDSP 8x12 with dirac live.


You done some good looking work with the router table and the enclosures. Maybe just focus there and hire someone to work the Helix out?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Holmz said:


> You done some good looking work with the router table and the enclosures. Maybe just focus there and hire someone to work the Helix out?


That's not the kinda person I am... I am a diy guy all the way and I want to LEARN this stuff. Just because the tuning part isn't my forte doesn't mean I should give up on it. 

I have come this far and tuned some great sounding cars... The only thing I would consider hiring someone for, is to *teach me how to tune better* and work with more challenging systems like this one. 

It's easy to pay someone to tune and not even bother posting threads and asking questions: I am not looking for the easy way. I am passionate about this hobby and I want to continue learning about every aspect of it.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

DavidRam said:


> That's not the kinda person I am... I am a diy guy all the way and I want to LEARN this stuff. Just because the tuning part isn't my forte doesn't mean I should give up on it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed! Sometimes, I see some of the more experienced users here just say something like "take it to get professionally tuned". However, the whole point here is that we want to learn how to do the tuning ourselves - not just pay someone else to do it! One of the reasons we come here is to get help and advice so *we* can learn how to tune. I've always found that "learning by doing" is the best way to learn. Combined with audio forums like this (or CAJ now!!), it makes it much easier for people to learn from the more experienced folks. 

And then, of course, when we become better at tuning, we return the favor and pass on the help to other newer folks. Keep passing the information on down the line... 

Not to mention that just because someone is good at tuning, doesn't mean that they hear like the person that owns the car hears - so being able to tune yourself is a huge benefit so that you can get the most out of your system - for YOUR ears and YOUR preferences.


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## javcolin (Nov 12, 2018)

DavidRam said:


> Holmz said:
> 
> 
> > You done some good looking work with the router table and the enclosures. Maybe just focus there and hire someone to work the Helix out?
> ...


Amen brother!

I guess it all about willing to learn while you are doing your own projects. 

I'm the same way I like to do it myself and learn in the process there is nothing more rewarding than the fact that you did it yourself. 

Is it challenging? of course it is that is what makes it even more interesting.

Is there an easy way to do it, certainly there is but what's the fun about it?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

DavidRam said:


> Agreed. I also have Jim Becker (BigRed) near me... Where do I find the input gain on the dsp?
> 
> 
> 
> Kinda hypnotic, right?!


ask Drop1 :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

miniSQ said:


> ask Drop1 :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


Uuuhhh, no thanks! :laugh:

He'll tell me I need to send 600 watts to my tweeters and that will fix the problem.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

DavidRam said:


> Uuuhhh, no thanks! :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> He'll tell me I need to send 600 watts to my tweeters and that will fix the problem.




But MuH hEaD rOoM bRuH durrrr


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Clipping in the DSP pretty much is the same as no headroom in the amp.
There is no easy way to distinguish it.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

David, I think you should just sell that AF gear to me and get something else. :devil:


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

JCsAudio said:


> David, I think you should just sell that AF gear to me and get something else. :devil:


Lol

These AFs scream, and aren't going anywhere! ?

#falsealarm


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

DavidRam said:


> Lol
> 
> 
> 
> These AFs scream, and aren't going anywhere!




What did you change?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Redliner99 said:


> What did you change?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Too much EQ cuts reduced the output... For now I just started over with crossovers, T/A, and level match, but no EQ at all yet. The output is painful with no distortion. I've been driving like this for a few days now and my ears really hurt. But it reaffirms what these AFs are capable of! Lol


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

DavidRam said:


> Lol
> 
> These AFs scream, and aren't going anywhere! ?
> 
> #falsealarm


Ahhhh man! 



:beerchug:


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## Helyani (Aug 9, 2019)

Dont you have a three way with GB25 mids?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Helyani said:


> Dont you have a three way with GB25 mids?


The GB25s are in the D pillars for rear fill.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

SkizeR said:


> doubtful. make sure that crossover is at least a 24db slope. They GB10's can get pretty damn loud. Hell, anything in the GB line can get pretty damn loud.


Nick is right, they do get loud, screaming loud to the point it makes you go nuts !


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

quickaudi07 said:


> Nick is right, they do get loud, screaming loud to the point it makes you go nuts !


So the answer to the thread title is "No"?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Well, I was wrong again... Still getting that crackle with no EQ applied... I do have a new discovery though:

When it begins to crackle is in bass heavy songs and it crackles to the beat or the crackle follows the bass line. When I turn the bass down on the Director the crackle goes away. The more I decrease the bass down on the Director, the more I can increase the volume without the crackle. 

Meaning that I don't get the crackle without the bass... 

The crackle is definitely in higher frequencies, but it is in the center of the dash (not coming from one tweeter like I had originally thought). 

*I do NOT have a in-depth, scientific understanding of car audio and electronics, so don't jump down my throat if what I say next doesn't make sense... *
But is it possible that heavy bass (and the bass amp) is maxing out the electrical system and somehow starving the 4 channel amp for power, causing the crackle? Or something along those lines?


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## FattyBoomBoom (Sep 22, 2019)

Is it possible when you measures your HU for max clean power, you measured with pink noise and it was clean. Then you play a bass heavy song and the HU creeps into an unclean signal? I thought I’ve read somebody saying this happened to them. I’m not a pro so feel free to bash my statement to pieces &#55358;&#56692;


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

FattyBoomBoom said:


> Is it possible when you measures your HU for max clean power, you measured with pink noise and it was clean. Then you play a bass heavy song and the HU creeps into an unclean signal? I thought I’ve read somebody saying this happened to them. I’m not a pro so feel free to bash my statement to pieces ��


No bashing needed. It's a good thought, except for the fact I am not using a head unit. Lol

The source is a dap connected digital directly to the DSP, so no clipping possible at the source at least...


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

DavidRam said:


> Well, I was wrong again... Still getting that crackle with no EQ applied... I do have a new discovery though:
> 
> When it begins to crackle is in bass heavy songs and it crackles to the beat or the crackle follows the bass line. When I turn the bass down on the Director the crackle goes away. The more I decrease the bass down on the Director, the more I can increase the volume without the crackle.
> 
> ...


Try unhooking power or signal to the sub amp and leaving the bass up on the director. See if it still happens. If it does, then the sub amp is not the cause.


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## FattyBoomBoom (Sep 22, 2019)

DavidRam said:


> FattyBoomBoom said:
> 
> 
> > Is it possible when you measures your HU for max clean power, you measured with pink noise and it was clean. Then you play a bass heavy song and the HU creeps into an unclean signal? I thought I’ve read somebody saying this happened to them. I’m not a pro so feel free to bash my statement to pieces ��
> ...


Haha! I’m retarded.. I’m paying close attention to these threads cause I’m doing my first semi high-end install for myself very soon. I’d like to hear what the problem was when you find out!


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

jdunk54nl said:


> Try unhooking power or signal to the sub amp and leaving the bass up on the director. See if it still happens. If it does, then the sub amp is not the cause.


Great idea, I'll try that, thanks!


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DavidRam said:


> Well, I was wrong again... Still getting that crackle with no EQ applied... I do have a new discovery though:
> 
> When it begins to crackle is in bass heavy songs and it crackles to the beat or the crackle follows the bass line. When I turn the bass down on the Director the crackle goes away. The more I decrease the bass down on the Director, the more I can increase the volume without the crackle.
> 
> ...


Let's say that the max (full scale) voltage out of the HU is 1.1v.
The tweeters may use only 0.1v to get a very loud SPL.
The Mid Range maybe 0.25v and the woofers maybe 0.5v.
Then the subs maybe 0.75v.
Basically almost all of the power is used in the lower bands.

Then when one super imposes all those sounds together they result in a signal over 1.1v, and the clipping presents mostly on the tweeters.

There are two likely causes:
1) the gain in the Hu is too high
2) the music is compressed to a point where the clipping is embedded in to the track.

You should be able to listen to the HU's RCA outputs with some ear buds. If the scratchy clipping is there on the track itself then it should be there at all volumes, but the equal loudness curves may mean that one does not hear until it is loud??

It seems more likely that as the volume is increased the sub-band is using the whole voltage excursion and the tweeter-band ends up clipping.

I think the solution is either less HU gain, less digital gain, less subwoofer gain in the HU and more in the sub amp... or some combo of those.

But I don't know a Helix. Skizer does remote tuning, and others as well... maybe get one of those people to do a remote session?

Or just turn all the amps gain up higher and see what happens then?
Whether it is clipping in the HU or the DSP, turning the volume down up front, and turning the volume up at the amps should provide confirmation.


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

This from the Helix manual (I am not even sure I understand what all of it means, and if it's even applicable to my situation):

_4. Connecting a digital signal source. If you have a signal source with optical or coaxial digital output you can connect it to the processor using the appropriate input.
In standard configuration the HELIX DSP PRO automatically activates the used digital input if an digital audio signal is detected. This function can be deactivated via the DSP PC-Tool soft-ware. Alternatively you can manually activate the digital input if you are using the optional re-mote control.The automatic turn-on circuit does not work when the digital input is used. Therefore it is mandatory to connect the „Remote In" at the power input if none of the high level inputs are used. Please note that it is possible to connect a source to one of the digital inputs and the high level or the pre-amplifier at the same time.Important: The signal of a digital audio source normally does not contain any information about the volume level. Keep in mind that this will lead to full level on the outputs of the HELIX DSP PRO and your connected amplifiers. This may cause severe damage to your speakers.We strongly recommend to use an optional re-mote control for adjusting the volume level of the digital signal input!Information: The HELIX DSP PRO can only handle uncompressed digital stereo signals in PCM format with a sample rate between 12 kHz and 96 kHz / 192 kHz. Neither Dolby-coded 5.1 signals nor compressed MP3-/WMA- orAAC-audio formats will be accepted._


I am not blaming the Helix, but this issue was not present when I had the exact same equipment and a MiniDSP in the Jeep... It makes me think there is something in the Helix that needs adjusting. 

A couple notes:
I am not using a factory head unit - it's a Fiio X5 via digital to the Helix. 
My amp gains are set just below clipping with a SMD DD1 and they are about the same place they were with the MiniDSP.
This issue is only present on loud recordings. On known, high quality recordings there is no distortion to full volume.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DavidRam said:


> This from the Helix manual (I am not even sure I understand what all of it means, and if it's even applicable to my situation):
> 
> _4. Connecting a digital signal source. If you have a signal source with optical or coaxial digital output you can connect it to the processor using the appropriate input.
> In standard configuration the HELIX DSP PRO automatically activates the used digital input if an digital audio signal is detected. This function can be deactivated via the DSP PC-Tool soft-ware. Alternatively you can manually activate the digital input if you are using the optional re-mote control.The automatic turn-on circuit does not work when the digital input is used. Therefore it is mandatory to connect the „Remote In" at the power input if none of the high level inputs are used. Please note that it is possible to connect a source to one of the digital inputs and the high level or the pre-amplifier at the same time.Important: The signal of a digital audio source normally does not contain any information about the volume level. Keep in mind that this will lead to full level on the outputs of the HELIX DSP PRO and your connected amplifiers. This may cause severe damage to your speakers.We strongly recommend to use an optional re-mote control for adjusting the volume level of the digital signal input!Information: The HELIX DSP PRO can only handle uncompressed digital stereo signals in PCM format with a sample rate between 12 kHz and 96 kHz / 192 kHz. Neither Dolby-coded 5.1 signals nor compressed MP3-/WMA- orAAC-audio formats will be accepted._
> ...


1) Put on pink noise and fairly loud.
2) Measure the RMS voltages on sub, MB, MR and tweeter.
3) Turn the volume down to medium (half way or less)
4) crank the gain pots on the up on the sub and MB amps way up.
5) measure the RMS voltage and move the sub or the MB gain pots till the RMS voltages are the same as in step2
6) set the gain pots on the MB and tweeter to get to the same place as in step #2

7) Report back as to whether the crackles are still there, or whether they disappeared.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Holmz said:


> 1) Put on pink noise and fairly loud.
> 
> 2) Measure the RMS voltages on sub, MB, MR and tweeter.
> 
> ...


You dont use pink noise for gain setting... 

David, you have my number. Call or text me if you need help with anything helix related. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> You dont use pink noise for gain setting...
> 
> David, you have my number. Call or text me if you need help with anything helix related.


The pink noise was so that the amp gain pots would be at the same relative level between each other after, as it was before.

Sort of a baby steps approach before adjusting the gain in the Helix.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Holmz said:


> The pink noise was so that the amp gain pots would be at the same relative level between each other after, as it was before.
> 
> 
> 
> Sort of a baby steps approach before adjusting the gain in the Helix.


Setting gain in the dsp should be the first thing you do after installing a system. That probably needs to be addressed if he has any sort of analog inputs as it's often totally overlooked 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> You dont use pink noise for gain setting...
> 
> David, you have my number. Call or text me if you need help with anything helix related.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Thanks bro!



SkizeR said:


> Setting gain in the dsp should be the first thing you do after installing a system. That probably needs to be addressed if he has any sort of analog inputs as it's often totally overlooked
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


No analog inputs, only the Fiio to the dsp.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> Setting gain in the dsp should be the first thing you do after installing a system. That probably needs to be addressed if he has any sort of analog inputs as it's often totally overlooked.


I agree.
It was brought up in post #57, and maybe earlier.

It would still be interesting to know whether increasing the amp gain would move the onset of the crackle to higher SPLs?
Or is it coming in full scale from the Fiio and then the clipping is independent of volume?


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

It's been my understanding when using the digital output on the Fiio, the volume must be all the way up. Is there any reason why I should try turning its volume down a bit?

Should I try turning my bass amp gains down?? Remember, the crackle in the tweeters is dependent on the bass - less bass higher spl before the tweeters crackle. Then again, I would hate for that to be necessary as the gains are in the same place as they were with MiniDSP, where there was no distortion issues at all. 

Again, it seems to be somewhere in the Helix that I need to make some adjustments, I just can't figure out where. 

It is crackling at the same spl that it was before I de-EQed it... The reason it seemed to have gone away is that, without EQ, the system seemed louder.

Lastly, the album I last got the distortion on is Kahlid - Free Spirit. It isn't poorly recorded, it's just loud and bass heavy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6buCeA4ZSc&list=PLATQ8iWXs4GykjkjeqVBM98DGagpRIwJM

Edit: Keep in mind, on less loud albums, there is no distortion... and the distortion happens as the bass gets louder.


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## FattyBoomBoom (Sep 22, 2019)

I think I know your problem. Maybe it’s the song... here try this one out

https://youtu.be/U4GXNzom6ik


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

FattyBoomBoom said:


> I think I know your problem. Maybe it’s the song... here try this one out
> 
> https://youtu.be/U4GXNzom6ik


Uuuhh, that song made my soul distort! Lol


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## FattyBoomBoom (Sep 22, 2019)

That’s what it’s supposed to do!!!


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## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

FattyBoomBoom said:


> That’s what it’s supposed to do!!!


Then in that case, it's working fine! :laugh:


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

DavidRam said:


> It's been my understanding when using the digital output on the Fiio, the volume must be all the way up. Is there any reason why I should try turning its volume down a bit?
> 
> Should I try turning my bass amp gains down?? Remember, the crackle in the tweeters is dependent on the bass - less bass higher spl before the tweeters crackle. Then again, I would hate for that to be necessary as the gains are in the same place as they were with MiniDSP, where there was no distortion issues at all.
> 
> ...


Just pull the RCA out of the subwoofer confirm that crackle is still there.

Then reread post #139, where I mention that the tweeter rides in top of the bass.
Just Like chop ride on top of big swells in ocean.
Turning all the amps up would be a possible cure, but fixing the DSP gain may require the amp gains to go up... so I would still be listening to Skizer.


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## crackinhedz (May 5, 2013)

FattyBoomBoom said:


> I think I know your problem. Maybe it’s the song... here try this one out
> 
> https://youtu.be/U4GXNzom6ik


The comment section! :laugh: :snacks:


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