# The New Pioneer DSP (DEQ-S1000A) Any Good?



## PinkFloydEffect (Nov 1, 2017)

I have been trying to find a good USB DSP to run my 2-way system with subs, I have looked at a few others including an 8-channel Dayton for running 3-way with subs in the future but the software is not as good as this Pioneer, it only has 10-bands and does not support a full 4v stable output. This Pioneer has a great UI and what I really like about it is the DIY tuning app for your phone so you can auto set things such as time delay. The advantage of a USB unit is that I can connect it to a computer to make precise adjustments, and even some on the go if I can get it to work with an Android head unit. It has a 31-band EQ, and 4v stable outputs.

The secondary thing I liked about this unit was it offers high level speaker outputs with its own internal amp. Rated for 4 x 29w RMS @ 4-Ohms and stable up to 8-Ohms. My only grief with this is they do not list the THD % of these high level outputs. My amp is powering the mids @ around 0.01% THD so I am really hung up on supplying my TN53K tweeters with a low distortion signal as well. However at 8-Ohms the TN53K can take 16w RMS, and I am not sure what that 29w drops to @ 8-Ohms. In theory it should be perfectly fine to run my tweeters off this DSPs power, but how clean is the signal is my big question.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

PinkFloydEffect said:


> I have been trying to find a good USB DSP to run my 2-way system with subs, I have looked at a few others including an 8-channel Dayton for running 3-way with subs in the future but the software is not as good as this Pioneer, it only has 10-bands and does not support a full 4v stable output. This Pioneer has a great UI and what I really like about it is the DIY tuning app for your phone so you can auto set things such as time delay. The advantage of a USB unit is that I can connect it to a computer to make precise adjustments, and even some on the go if I can get it to work with an Android head unit. It has a 31-band EQ, and 4v stable outputs.
> 
> The secondary thing I liked about this unit was it offers high level speaker outputs with its own internal amp. Rated for 4 x 29w RMS @ 4-Ohms and stable up to 8-Ohms. My only grief with this is they do not list the THD % of these high level outputs. My amp is powering the mids @ around 0.01% THD so I am really hung up on supplying my TN53K tweeters with a low distortion signal as well. However at 8-Ohms the TN53K can take 16w RMS, and I am not sure what that 29w drops to @ 8-Ohms. In theory it should be perfectly fine to run my tweeters off this DSPs power, but how clean is the signal is my big question.


in reality hooked up to this device you will only see 3-5watts to your tweeters if that, if your mid amp is above 30 watts per channel you will be very mismatched

also in reality the distortion if matched to your tweeters will be higher than 0,01% as it only drops that low at or near to the point of clip, its higher at lower power due to a fixed level of background distortion (I forget the name)

and as for 'stable upto 8 ohms' stability is the lowest impedance, the highest impedence will be way over 8 ohms with a reactive load like a speaker, so you have that a little bit backwards, as long as the lowest impedance of your speakers is now lower than the lowest rated impedance for driving speakers (in your case 4 ohms and your drivers being 8 ohms) you will be fine, but power will be an issue

in essence you are worrying about things you don't need to worry about, and that amp wont drive your tweeters to anywhere near the level of a proper amp on your mids sadly

think of it another way

the tweeters come as a set of passive components with a rating of 6o watts rms or whatever, if you hook up the set to a 60 watt rms amp the tweeter is connected via the passive to a 60 watt rms amp, due to the energy in music at that level it effectively sees 10-15 watts and doesn't blow up, and the mid sees 20-30 watts... so while ratings are there if you don't account for how an amp delivers its power you will end up with imbalances (how do you think people run 30 watt tweeters from a zapco 150.6 off 150watts rms long term without killing them?)

in other words even if running active you will require the half to the same power as your mid amp to enable the tweeters to have a level to blend with the mids nicely, just to save you spending money to have to spend more when it doesn't work out as you plan

I would definitely budget for a second tweeter amp, and unless your amps are cheap crap you 100% wont tell the difference between a 3.6v input and a 4v input... 4v is not a standard or better in any way than 2v if your amp has a decent signal to noise ratio and the gain allows matching with no noise induced, and 3.6v to 4v is not even a thing to consider

the more I read the more I find holes...

the Dayton has 10 bands of EQ per channel so 80 bands and a spare set of channels, of fully parametric EQ... and room for expansion

you plug the Dayton into a pc via usb also???

the pioneer will have a 31 band for each channel if youre lucky, and fixed bands with fixed Q, so imo not as good as the Dayton by a good way with its parametric EQ

also it has a 10a fuse, how much power do you think it really delivers... stereos have claimed the same for years... in reality its more like 15-20 watts rms, that's even less in reality for your tweeters

the Pioneer is not as good as a Dayton imo


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## PinkFloydEffect (Nov 1, 2017)

My mids amp is 150W RMS per channel @ 2-Ohms, but my mids are 100w RMS @ 2-Ohms each. The tweeter is 15w RMS and 100w max but I keep being told they are not going to draw more than 15w. 

When you double the Pioneer impedance load from 4-Ohms to 8-Ohms, 29w RMS should in theory not be cut down to any less than half @ 14-15w RMS though? At least that is how my amp works, it gives 4-Ohm wattage ratings and you loose 25w every time you double the impedance. For example I get 150w @ 2-Ohms, 125w @ 4-Ohms and 100w @ 8-Ohms. 

I understand there is background distortion but is that not the amps fault? If your signal chain is a stable 4v with good shielded cables, and your amp is of high quality you should be remaining at a low background distortion. 

I guess from your explanation even though my tweeters are 15w RMS I need to supply them with around 50w RMS to keep up with my mids? 

Yeah the Zapco amp has a noise of about 0.1-0.3% THD and accepts up to 16v but I just figured 4v is something I should try to keep consistent. I guess I will have to buy a second Zapco to run my tweeters which is like $500. 

I am just going off listed specs, the Dayton says 10-band EQ while Pioneer said 31-band. So your saying 31-bands is divided by 6 channels or 31-bands per channel?? You lost me there with that comparison. 

Yes the Dayton is USB controlled.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

PinkFloydEffect said:


> My mids amp is 150W RMS per channel @ 2-Ohms, but my mids are 100w RMS @ 2-Ohms each. The tweeter is 15w RMS and 100w max but I keep being told they are not going to draw more than 15w.
> 
> When you double the Pioneer impedance load from 4-Ohms to 8-Ohms, 29w RMS should in theory not be cut down to any less than half @ 14-15w RMS though? At least that is how my amp works, it gives 4-Ohm wattage ratings and you loose 25w every time you double the impedance. For example I get 150w @ 2-Ohms, 125w @ 4-Ohms and 100w @ 8-Ohms.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worry about the power. Power is something that is almost always misunderstood and misrepresented. 

For a tweeter, 90dB/watt is a very reasonable sensitivity. To put that into perspective, when we speak at conversation levels we are speaking at around the 60dB range, so with a single watt those tweeters will be about 30dB louder than a conversation. You're looking at high frequencies coming out of your speakers at around the volume of a heavy machinery with only a single watt. For low volume listening, the tweeters are seeing fractions of a single watt. You can get more than 108dB out of a tweeter (if it can handle it) with 64 watts, and 99dB with only 8 watts. So, 8 watts will make your tweeters uncomfortably loud (helicopter, jackhammer, subway train loud).

Don't worry about not having enough power for your tweeters, a handful of watts is plenty.


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## PinkFloydEffect (Nov 1, 2017)

gijoe said:


> I wouldn't worry about the power. Power is something that is almost always misunderstood and misrepresented.
> 
> For a tweeter, 90dB/watt is a very reasonable sensitivity. To put that into perspective, when we speak at conversation levels we are speaking at around the 60dB range, so with a single watt those tweeters will be about 30dB louder than a conversation. You're looking at high frequencies coming out of your speakers at around the volume of a heavy machinery with only a single watt. For low volume listening, the tweeters are seeing fractions of a single watt. You can get more than 108dB out of a tweeter (if it can handle it) with 64 watts, and 99dB with only 8 watts. So, 8 watts will make your tweeters uncomfortably loud (helicopter, jackhammer, subway train loud).
> 
> Don't worry about not having enough power for your tweeters, a handful of watts is plenty.


In that case, this Pioneer in theory has enough power. Now it comes down to how clean is that built-in amp. Really not sure I can hold it to much of a standard in THD for the price.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

The Pioneer DSP isn't even worth consideration in my opinion. I haven't looked at it closely since its announcement, but from what I recall, it is basically one of their newer head units in an external box. You get the 31 band shared EQ and a head unit amp. You'll be way better off with the Dayton DSP-408 and another amp for your tweeters. (Which will probably never draw more than about 10W anyway.) 

Even more important than what equipment you choose, is knowing what the tool is capable of and how to use it. If you're new to DSP, I would suggest spending plenty of time reading up on how to properly measure and tune your system.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

PinkFloydEffect said:


> In that case, this Pioneer in theory has enough power. Now it comes down to how clean is that built-in amp. Really not sure I can hold it to much of a standard in THD for the price.


It has enough power, but I have no idea how clean it is. That wouldn't be my concern though, like rton20s said, it's not a very good value when you consider the other DSPs on the market. It doesn't even seem to have independent left/right EQ, Pioneer makes head units that have better DSP's built in. I'm not really sure what Pioneer was thinking when they made this, it's not really any more powerful than their double dins with network mode, I don't see the point of this product.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

I’ll edit my response...

Is anyone really saying running tweeters from effectively a headunit is a good match for mids run from 150 watt rms power? I think that’s madness and not really even worth considering, and the dsp is v.poor compared to a Dayton


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

dumdum said:


> I agree with the sentiments that tweeters only ever use very little power... but that’s a given when you start with an amp setup clean with lots more power
> 
> Use my example of a zapco 150.6 as an example... if you set it up clean and conservatively and with reduced input it may only give 75 watts clean (with a 1khz sine wave at 0db) yet the tweeters will see less than 10-15 watts at full chat due to less information in the program material at high frequencys and it will still match nicely with the mids run off the same amp which sees 75 watts plucking numbers from thin air
> 
> ...


I'd be really interested to put this to an objective test, because I disagree with you.

At a single watt you're already well into good listening levels, that leaves a ton of head room to get those tweeters screaming. The distortion will still be very low, even though the amp is only capable of 14 watts. I think you're dramatically overestimating how far a single watt goes.

I would not be at all worried about the sound quality suffering if using this amp to feed tweeters. But again, there are plenty of other reasons to avoid buying it in the first place.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

gijoe said:


> I'd be really interested to put this to an objective test, because I disagree with you.
> 
> At a single watt you're already well into good listening levels, that leaves a ton of head room to get those tweeters screaming. The distortion will still be very low, even though the amp is only capable of 14 watts. I think you're dramatically overestimating how far a single watt goes.
> 
> I would not be at all worried about the sound quality suffering if using this amp to feed tweeters. But again, there are plenty of other reasons to avoid buying it in the first place.


Ah well you quoted me before my edit

I can try and measure some real life power after the uk finals and wind my amps down to the power levels at 0db this 150watt rms vs 25 watts rms on tweeters from my ground zero uranium sq setup (I’d have to take 7-8db from my tweeters... -3db would be 75 watts, -6db 37.5 watts, less a bit gives this figure) ?? It would reveal how unbalanced the system would become I feel and how hard the 25 watt amp would have to be pushed (and I’d have big power supply’s on tap for the amp so at its limit it would behave far better than a headunit amp)

I know from my gain structure and levels settings I am only 3.5db down on identical gain settings with my tweeter channels from my helix (ie all amps are gain on min and 3db is full power with 6db input, mids are set at 1db and tweeters at -2.5db for my passenger side mid/tweeter combo

So I’d have to wind my 120watt amp down on my mids by an extra 4.5ish dB to match the tweeter levels (that they actually see) which to me is a miss matched amp as one would have a very easy life and one would be on the edge of sounding awful having done the same

And having run tweeters from a pioneer just like this I ran the mids from a headunit also using network mode and the internal amp so I speak from experience (see my build log for system info) I can tell you the volume levels while not massively difference had I put my current amps on the mids they simply wouldn’t keep up

So for my structure I certainly wouldn’t consider using an amp with 6 times less power to start with (and I’m being optimistic about the power of the headunit amp in the dsp off a ten amp fuse I feel)


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

dumdum said:


> Ah well you quoted me before my edit
> 
> I can try and measure some real life power after the uk finals and wind my amps down to the power levels at 0db this 150watt rms vs 25 watts rms on tweeters from my ground zero uranium sq setup (I’d have to take 7-8db from my tweeters... -3db would be 75 watts, -6db 37.5 watts, less a bit gives this figure) ?? It would reveal how unbalanced the system would become I feel and how hard the 25 watt amp would have to be pushed (and I’d have big power supply’s on tap for the amp so at its limit it would behave far better than a headunit amp)
> 
> ...



At this point, without any real data, my response is:

The mids don't need nearly as much power as people think either. Having a tweeter on 14 watts doesn't necessarily cause a mismatch because the mids are also receive very small amounts of power compared to what the amp is capable of (and what people think they are using). We also know that the low frequencies need more power, so I don't believe there will be a mismatch at all, until you exceed the 14 watts from the head unit amp, and by then you're already over 100dB for the highs, so they won't need much more power.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

I gotta agree with the majority here, don't get hung up on "power" output specs. The important thing is a clean supply power to the equipment, and minimizing distortion as much as possible.


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## PinkFloydEffect (Nov 1, 2017)

Here is some data for you, if Focal designed a matched 2-way set with an RMS of 15w and 100w that means the tweeter is 15% of the mids potential "power" at full volume. The physical cone mass and diameter/depth of the tweeter including coil size literally is 15% that of the mids driver so it only makes sense. Tweeters beam at a much more narrow path say 15% of the mids omnidirectional waves? 

I have personally ran cheap aftermarket door speakers on a cheap aftermarket amp with cheap $7 tweeters all from Walmart before. Here's the catch, I ran those tweeters off the head units high level speaker outputs with the door speakers running off the RCA output. Those tweeters kept up just fine, I will say that much.

If the DSP is really that bad than I will pass it up for a Dayton. I am studying up on DSP tuning but it just seemed like you were saving the cost of buying an expensive tune kit with their app. I am curious if anyone uses an app with an external mic connected to their phone for tuning?


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Human hearing is logarithmic and we hear sound from 20 Hz to 20kHz on a scaled reduction of roughly 3 db per octave with our ears being more sensitive to higher frequencies. We also prefer more bass than midrange and a little more midrange than highs so this is why we have target curves that basically all look similar with all the power going to the sub stage and less as you go up the frequency scale. This is basically the reason why with a 1000 watt sub stage you may need less than 8 watts to the tweeter to keep up with that sub stage and subsequent midrange or midwoofer.


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## The A Train (Jun 26, 2007)

I may have to disagree with the collective here. I am actually planning on using this as the focal point of my next build. My approach will be simplistic and as stock as possible. In my old ranger, I used a newer pioneer h/u with this same technology, and really liked it. Youre all right, there not excessive amounts of settings, but i was dang happy with it. The DEQ IMO is just one of their h/u's That is basically plug in play for someone wanting to keep their stock radio or not fuss with the extra expense and effort to change whats there. 

My individual goal is to keep the stock radio, replace the door speakers with something like JBL Club coax's (93dB IIRC) and have a pair of GRS SW-12's IB. The coax's will be on the front channels seeing 14ish watts, and the subs will be bridged on the rear channels at 70w. 

Some of you may be shaking your heads, but for less than $400 I can upgrade the whole system including door treatments with a small amp/dsp utilizing high efficiency coax's and large surface area IB subs; all with dsp at the fly through the app. No I will not win any awards for SQ or SPL, but I wont have $10K+ into it either. It will be a fun daily driver. And isnt that what we all want?


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

The A Train said:


> I may have to disagree with the collective here. I am actually planning on using this as the focal point of my next build. My approach will be simplistic and as stock as possible. In my old ranger, I used a newer pioneer h/u with this same technology, and really liked it. Youre all right, there not excessive amounts of settings, but i was dang happy with it. The DEQ IMO is just one of their h/u's That is basically plug in play for someone wanting to keep their stock radio or not fuss with the extra expense and effort to change whats there.
> 
> My individual goal is to keep the stock radio, replace the door speakers with something like JBL Club coax's (93dB IIRC) and have a pair of GRS SW-12's IB. The coax's will be on the front channels seeing 14ish watts, and the subs will be bridged on the rear channels at 70w.
> 
> Some of you may be shaking your heads, but for less than $400 I can upgrade the whole system including door treatments with a small amp/dsp utilizing high efficiency coax's and large surface area IB subs; all with dsp at the fly through the app. No I will not win any awards for SQ or SPL, but I wont have $10K+ into it either. It will be a fun daily driver. And isnt that what we all want?



But, the Dayton DSP is less expensive, and much more powerful. 

This Pioneer DSP has less tools than the DSP they built into the single DIN P99RS. Why buy a bulky (compared to a single DIN head unit) DSP that does less? It can't even do L/R EQ. A Pioneer double DIN with network mode does what this DSP does, and it's an all in one package. I don't understand why Pioneer left out so many useful features. It certainly would have been easy to do, if they can fit more processing into a single DIN, why couldn't they have fit it the same amount of processing into an external DSP. 

It's a pointless product when you compare it to better, cheaper DSP's that are available.


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## The A Train (Jun 26, 2007)

I see your point, but my primary reasoning with choosing the pioneer over the dayton is the built in amp. I dont want to have an external amp/wiring etc. This is an all-in-one, plug and play unit.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

The A Train said:


> I see your point, but my primary reasoning with choosing the pioneer over the dayton is the built in amp. I dont want to have an external amp/wiring etc. This is an all-in-one, plug and play unit.


I don't want to get too far off topic, as the following suggestion doesn't really apply to the OP who already has another amp. But for a simple upgrade, I would consider something like the Kicker Key. Less expensive than the Pioneer, more power and from all reports some of the better Automatic DSPs ever implemented in car audio. (Most who have used both prefer Kicker over Pioneer's auto-tune.) The only drawback is that it doesn't have DSP processing for a subwoofer. If Kicker were to develop a similar DSP amp with a single processed mono out for a subwoofer, they'd probably have a hard time keeping them on the shelf. 

No, it might not be the best solution for your coax + subwoofers. Unless you are ok high passing your coax at 320Hz LR4 and low passing your subs at 640Hz LR4. But for something like a simple two way component set + powered subwoofer (or separate mono amp & sub), it is a great option. Even in your case, I would go with the Dayton in combination with a low cost micro amp like the Kenwood KAC-M3004 over the Pioneer.


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## The A Train (Jun 26, 2007)

rton20s said:


> I don't want to get too far off topic, as the following suggestion doesn't really apply to the OP who already has another amp. But for a simple upgrade, I would consider something like the Kicker Key. Less expensive than the Pioneer, more power and from all reports some of the better Automatic DSPs ever implemented in car audio. (Most who have used both prefer Kicker over Pioneer's auto-tune.) The only drawback is that it doesn't have DSP processing for a subwoofer. If Kicker were to develop a similar DSP amp with a single processed mono out for a subwoofer, they'd probably have a hard time keeping them on the shelf.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it might not be the best solution for your coax + subwoofers. Unless you are ok high passing your coax at 320Hz LR4 and low passing your subs at 640Hz LR4. But for something like a simple two way component set + powered subwoofer (or separate mono amp & sub), it is a great option. Even in your case, I would go with the Dayton in combination with a low cost micro amp like the Kenwood KAC-M3004 over the Pioneer.




Im not following on the HP and LP











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

The A Train said:


> Im not following on the HP and LP
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was referring to the Kicker Key 180.4. In bi-amp mode it can either provide HPF & LPF @ 3.2kHz LR4 or 320Hz LR4 HPF & 640Hz LRF LPF. The former being designed for use with a typical mid + tweeter install, the later for a midbass, fullrange/wideband install. The one octave overlap for the second option could certainly create some headaches, especially since you have to rely entirely on an auto-tune.


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## The A Train (Jun 26, 2007)

It looks like there is a high pass filter setting on the key for 60hz, 80hz, 120hz and off. Could that not be used for a coax/subwoofer setup? Sounds like 80Hz would be a nice start


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

The A Train said:


> It looks like there is a high pass filter setting on the key for 60hz, 80hz, 120hz and off. Could that not be used for a coax/subwoofer setup? Sounds like 80Hz would be a nice start


No. That filter only high passes the signals on the amp, it will not create a low pass for a subwoofer. If you're interested in the KEY amplifier, I suggest reading through the manual. The unit is supposed to work pretty well considering it's price point and the competition. However, it is pretty limited in how your system can be configured. Perhaps limiting the configurations is why it can work pretty well.


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## PinkFloydEffect (Nov 1, 2017)

I have been reading through these responses and looked into the Kicker Key 180.4 seems like a pretty good product for the price. This would make an excellent overkill amp for my tweeters lol too bad it has limited crossover settings because I like the concept of the self tuning mic feature. My tweeters are an 8-ohm load so I am not sure what that would run the amp down to in watts but there would still be plenty of resources @ 8-ohms. 

With that being said, I would end up disabling the DSP in the Kicker amp and using a standalone DSP defeating the purpose of this amp. Too bad the Dayton doesn't have a tuning mic feature. 

Does anyone have recommendations on good micro amps with a THD under 1% for my tweeters? No processing needed just a pure amp.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I’d take a look at the Zapco ST-2X SQ. It isn’t as “micro” as some of the really small class D amps, but still quite compact. Class AB, 65w x2 @ 4 ohms and <0.5% THD. It should work quite well for your tweeter needs.


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## bilboaudio (Jan 7, 2020)

One of the features advertised of the Pioneer deq-s1000a is OE factory pre-set _EQ_ cancellation, by means of feeding it a test file so it can automatically get as flat as possible.

Does the Dayton 408 offer a similar feature?


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

The Dayton does not.


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## The A Train (Jun 26, 2007)

just to update with my own experiences. i have the pioneer currently in my accord running jbl club coax's in the doors and a pair of 12" MCM subs IB in the trunk. without setting my expectations high, i am pleasantly surprised with its performance. honestly plenty of power for what i need.


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