# 2014 Honda Freed SQ Build. BG Neo 3, Neo8s, Satori, Aliante, JL XD. Beast 2 DSP



## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

I've been working on my new Honda Freed for some time now, and would like to share some build pictures as well as sound measurements.
The idea is having an SQ system, and keep the 7 seaters still in place. So, trunk space is a bit limited.

*Gears:*

BG Neo 3 tweeter
BG Neo8s midrange
SB Satori 6" midbass
Phase Aliante 12si subwoofer
Got it used for $250 
JL XD 600/6 for all front channels and JL XD 600/1 for subwoofer
Got them used $600 for two of them. Still in perfect condition.
Beast 2 DSP (DIY)
Canare cables
Now, those two BGs are.. big! That's why i bought honda freed so i can put those tweeter and midrange in the right angle facing directly to me on A pillar 

As for the Satori midbass, this is my first time using it. Read good reviews on the net. T/S looks to be OK. I do like SS Rev 18w and pricey Accuton midbass sound. I think this Satori is somewhere between the two... Hopefully


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Beast 2 DSP (DIY) ?


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*BG Neo3 and BG Neo8s*

Warning: This two speakers are big. I don't think it will easily fit in many A pillars 
Sound quality is very good! I've heard many tweeters and midranges from $30 to $3000, and this BG is on par with expensive drivers i've ever heard.

This planar speaker looks to be very sensitive to dust, so i put a safety tape before installing. I also use 22uf solen cap for BG Neo3 and 3x100uF bennic np cap to protect BG Neo8s from dc.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Huckleberry Sound said:


> Beast 2 DSP (DIY) ?


*Beast 2*

Yep.
I'm an electronic hobbyist and very much like to use new toys 
Before i've used minidsp. I think i've been using minidsp for 5-6 years maybe? Before they create miniDC for car.

Now, it's time to try a new toy. Got the mainboard from Europe. It's using freescale DSP and Cirrus Logic ADC/DAC. Running on 96k and have 80-90 fully parametric EQ.










For the power supply section, i'm using Cosel DC-DC converter, and MPS MP1584 to power digital section of the DSP.

Arduino Nano is used to control the DSP. Enclosure is made using laser-cut acrylic.

And here's the beta result:


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

W
O
A
H..........


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## WhereAmEye? (Jun 17, 2013)

I'm most definitely in.


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## JP Fabrication (Feb 20, 2008)

Very cool so far. Can't wait for more.


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Definitely got my attention with that DiY DSP


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Yeah, the DSP is one of the most challenging aspect of building this system  It's not as "plug-and-play" as MiniDSP (after MiniDC available). But it's well worth the effort.

Anyway...
Let's continue with the gears.

*SB Satori MW16P-4*

I'm planning to put the midbass in door location. Being right sided driver, my chance to put midbass in kick panel is none. 

I need a midbass that's shallow enough and have good and detailed bass. Scanspeak revelator 18W and illuminator 18WU is very good, but too common in my country. Accuton is very good too, but pricey - my wife will kill me if i buy one 

After many days of browsing, found many threads discussing SB Satori. T/S looks good with 12mm xmax, 28Hz Fs, 12.8g MMS, and the price is about right. It looks cool too! (At least from the back)










With 7.5mm depth, i can fit this midbass with 2.5cm spacer on my door.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*Phase Aliante 12si subwoofer*

I've heard many subs, and this is one of my favorite SQ sub. Not only this sub can punch, the detail in low bass is amazing.
And i need shallow sub due to limited trunk space. Need to keep car's 7 seater all in place. 
Retail price is around $700, and boy i'm lucky cause someone sell this used for $250 :surprised:



















If you need shallow sub, consider this one. It's very well worth the price.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*JL XD Amplifiers*

I plan to put the sub and DSP in trunk, so i have to find two 4 channel amps that can fit underseat.
Browsing 2nd hand market, and i found two JL XD for sale! Yaaaaayyy.
It's not really 2x4 channel, but rather one 6 channels (JL XD600/6), and one monoblock (JL XD 600/1).










It's very small and build quality is very nice 
In fact i still can put capbank and distribution block underseat right beside this JL amp.

*Headunit*

Honda Freed default's radio is JVC. Love that it can play DVD and WAV directly from USB. A flac will be nicer, but this JVC is a good start.

*Cables*

Bought raw canare cables and solder them by myself. Snake skin makes cable looks professional


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*Subwoofer Installation*

With 7 seaters still need to be in place, i left with very small trunk space. 
Subwoofer enclosure is very small. So, i decided to use below underseat space as sub enclosure's extension. Stuff the enclosure with dacron and call it a day. 
It's all about compromise 










With sub enclosure continues underseat, i think the total volume is about 18L or so. Might be too small for 12" Phase Aliante.....










Right beside sub is the DSP.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*Front Stage Installation*

*Midbass in door*

Both inner and outer door panel are deadened using rubber/asphalt panels.
Chop of lower doortrim and put a new angled pod for midbass.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*Tweeter and Midrange in A pillar*

BG Neo3 and Neo8s are planar speakers. It has a limited vertical dispersion.
As such, careful placement is necessary to maximize the SQ.

Facing toward listener in A pillar










I think BG Neo8s needs a room to breathe if crossed low. I'm planning to cross BG Neo8s somewhere between 250-400Hz with LR4 crossover. 
So, the sealed enclosure is medium sized and stuffed with dacron.

Result:










Minimum blind spot too


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Next... sound measurements.. and some video too


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*Tuning*

Time to document some tuning method. Hopefully can be beneficial for all of us reading this thread 
Tuning involve several steps:
1. Preparation - rough initial by ears 
2. Time alignment by impulse response measurement
3. Crossover
4. EQ
5. Secret sauce

*Preparation*

Before start tuning first i have to check if everything works properly. This requires rough crossover and gain setting until it sounds ok.

My initial crossover setting usually is:
Sub: HP 20, LP 80
Midb: HP 80, LP 600
Midr: HP 600, LP 5k
Tw: HP 5k
All using 24db crossover. This is just to make sure all speakers are working without stress.

I bring my my old friend. A jig (loopback and stuff) and measurement mic.










Put the mic in driver's headrest and ready to tune!


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*Time Alignment - Impulse Response*

Start time alignment process by measuring impulse response.
I'm using ARTA to capture impulse, and Excel to calculate delay necessary for each driver.

Please note that i drive on the right side. So, right side speaker impulse will come first, and followed by the left.

_Tweeter Impulse Measurement_

Set tweeter crossover to: HP: 5k 24db, LP: bypass
Mute all channel except right side tweeter, run impulse measurement in ARTA using sine sweep. And once completed, do the same for left tweeter.

Here's the impulse for both right and left tweeter










From impulse measurement, i'll pick the time when impulse start.
That's 9.021ms for right tweeter, and 10.083ms for left tweeter

_Midrange Impulse_

For midrange, set crossover to: HP 600Hz 24db. LP: Bypass.
Run sine sweep.










We have right midrange at 9.354ms, and left midr at 10.375ms

_Midbass Impulse_

Set midbass crossover at: HP: 800, 24db, LP: bypass. HP is set to 800Hz cause the impulse is sensitive to high frequency.
Fire ARTA and:










Right midbass: 9.75ms, and left midb: 10.813

_Sub Impulse_

Capturing sub impulse is difficult since it has minimum high freq content.
So i set sub HP to 200Hz, and bypass the LP.
Run sine sweep, and zoom the gain in ARTA until i can see some impulse.










Sub is at 12.833ms

Now, let's calculate the delay required for each speaker. Excel is very handy for this


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Impulse measurement tells time arrival for each speaker. What we want is for all speaker sound reach us at the same time. 
So, we need to reverse the time arrival into delay. 
Easy to do this in Excel with some formula...










Reverse the time arrival into delay, and this is what will be entered to DSP:










Looking at the impulse response, all 1st peak goes up. Means all speakers have normal polarity.

Set delay in DSP according to Excel calculation, put original crossovers back, and play some mono recordings... listen...
Left and right speakers seems to be muted, instead all sounds coming from center of dash 
Some smearing left-right still occur. This is because i haven't set EQ yet....

Time alignment is done with very good result.
Next crossover and EQ.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Loving this! This is the first build I've seen with the SB Satori's. Looking forward to your thoughts. 

What other stuff have you used in the past? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Awesome detailing of the tuneing process, but curious of a couple of things.

What sine waves did you use for each speaker? How do you determine where to mark for the time delay on the Impulse results? What calculations are you making in Excell that determine your Time delay for each speaker?


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

teldzc1 said:


> Loving this! This is the first build I've seen with the SB Satori's. Looking forward to your thoughts.
> 
> What other stuff have you used in the past?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


Satori is a very good midbass speaker. Upper bass detail is amazing. 
I'll record and upload a video for virtual audition in several days.

I've used Peerless SC18, Hivi F6, SS Discovery 18W, SS Revelator 18W before. 

I've also tune some cars using more expensive midbass like SS18WU, Accuton C173, MPZ Studio, Skaaning FU, Legatia. This Satori is on par with them. Of course there're plus and minus aspects. But really, you won't be dissapointed with Satori.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Black Rain said:


> Awesome detailing of the tuneing process, but curious of a couple of things.
> 
> What sine waves did you use for each speaker? How do you determine where to mark for the time delay on the Impulse results? What calculations are you making in Excell that determine your Time delay for each speaker?


I use sine sweep to measure impulse. You can use MLS excitation signal too. I choose sine sweep just because i can measure time alignment while engine and air conditioner is on 

Use the 1st point where signal start to rise or fall. That's where it leaves zero point (zero crossing detector). If the signal is rising, than the polarity of speaker is normal. But if the signal goes down, the polarity is reversed.

The Excel is used to convert time arrival into delay. Use the biggest time arrival as the base value. And find the difference between the base value and other speakers. 
I'd love to add some margin too. So, the farthest speaker will have x ms delay, rather than 0ms. This is a safety margin incase we miss fraction of ms (sub is difficult to measure) and need to decrease the delay again.

For example:
1. Sub is at 12ms
2. Left tweeter is at 8ms.
3. Right tweeteris at 9ms.

Since sub has the biggest value, use it as the base, so the delay for each speaker that should be entered to DSP will be:
1. Sub 0ms
2. Left tweeter: 4ms
3. Right tweeter: 3ms

This has a problem when we have to decrease sub's delay since it's already 0ms. We can add delay to other channels, but it means more work.

So, use margin say 0.5ms, add this to all of the speaker:
1. Sub 0.5ms
2. Left tw: 4.5ms
3. Right tw: 3.5ms

Now if we have to decrease sub's delay, we can do it directly without effecting other channels.
Hope you get the idea


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Let's continue with the tuning process...

*Crossover*

There're some things i consider when choosing crossover points:

1. Speaker limitation
Crossover job is to make sure speaker plays frequency in its comfort zone. Read manufacturer recommendation. This should be good for starting point.

2. Sound stage
I'd like all sounds coming above dash. I can notice if midbass LP is above 400Hz because some instruments will sound from under dash. Hint: turn the balance control to full left or right. Play some track. If you can notice specific instrument coming from midbass, try adjusting the crossover again.
Also, have to consider sub and midbass. If the sub is on the back of car, putting LP too high will make bass sound coming from behind.

3. Which speaker has the better sound?
Many (if not all) 6" midbass can play effortlessly until 1-2K. Many midrange (cone, 3"++ diameter) can also play in the region of 200-300Hz. So, we have some overlap betwen 200-2K here. I'll choose the better sounding speaker to play range of frequencies.

4. Listen to human voice!
HP'ing tweeter too low can make vocal edgy at time. While LPing midrange too high can make the system too listener position dependent. IE: sound change if we move our head a bit. This is caused by beaming.

Time to measure...


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

I use REW to find crossover and EQ. It has tons of features that make sound tuning a lot faster.
Please note this measurement is done in car with speakers installed in place. There will be lots of deviation from one install to another install. YMMV.

*Tweeter Crossover*

Mute all speakers except tweeter. Set crossover to "text-book", or manufacturer recommendation. For BG Neo3. I use high pass 5k, LR4 crossover. LP is bypassed.
Measure using REW:










In my installation, BG Neo3 shows very low distortion. I can lower the crossover to 3K if required. For now, 5K/LR24 is good enough.

*Midrange Crossover*

BG Neo8s has the ability to be crossed lower than BG Neo8. So i try HP 300Hz/LR4, and LP 5k/LR4.










Ooohhh... Love the BG Neo8s already. No problem high passing at 300Hz/LR4 and 5k/LR4. There's a bit spike in distortion at around 1.8K though.

*Midbass Crossover*

Satori T/S stated FS is 28Hz. So, guess 2xFs should be enough for HP. I'll set midbass LP an octave higher than midrange HP so we can fine tune later on.










Looks good enough. I choose butterworth rather than linkwitz riley for midbass high pass. LR crossover is -6db at point, while BW is -3db. I may need that extra 3db to tune upfront bass later.

*Subwoofer*

I use lowpass 80Hz/BW4 for some overlap with midbass, and highpass the sub at 20Hz/12db for safety.










Hmm, my small enclosure is doing something with the sound...


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Great work! Where are you from?


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## claydo (Oct 1, 2012)

Sub'd.......nice work so far! Love the tuning details....


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

teldzc1 said:


> Great work! Where are you from?


Thanks 
I'm from Indonesia. Live in Jakarta.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

claydo said:


> Sub'd.......nice work so far! Love the tuning details....


Thanks.

I was in a position of not understanding car audio before... bout 12 years ago. Then i invest my time, bought the mic, measure sounds... very interesting process. 

I really hope this thread - the tuning details in particular is helpful for others.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

All right,
let's continue with the tuning process....

Crossovers have been set. 
Play some songs... 
Initial impressions: BG Neo8s really shines. This planar midrange is THE most detailed midrange i've ever heard (of course, subjectively). And i've listened to $50-$2500 a pair midrange. BG Neo8s is really something.

Now, with only crossovers in place, BG Neo8s and the BG Neo3 while very detailed in sound but also not really listenable  
If you look at FR plots in my car several posts back, you'll notice these two BGs in my car resulting sharp peaks everywhere. 

Let's continue with EQing the system.


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## abusiveDAD (Jan 7, 2009)

Nice


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*EQ*

EQing method depends on DSP capability.
I choose DIY DSP because it provides fully parametric EQ for each 8 speaker AND for 2 overall left and right channel. 

I also use REW to automate EQ all the time. My EQing will be done objectively, based only on measurement.

*Individual speaker EQ preparation*

Before EQing, i prepare target curves for each speakers: the sub, midbass, midrange and tweeter, all based on crossover points i choose.

I use my Excel to generate target curve based on crossover point. I think i've attached the Excel few years ago on DIYMA. 

Sub target curve. HP 20/BW2, LP 80/BW4









Midbass. 60/BW4 and 600/LR4









Midrange. 300/LR4 and 5K/LR4









Tweeter: HP 5K/LR4









Export the result to MS-DOS .txt and use the resulting files as target curve in REW


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*EQ using REW*

All right, now the house curves for each speakers already done. Time to use REW for EQ.
REW provides many functions that if not used properly may resulting poor sound. 
So, let's pay attention to detail.

In general after measurement, in REW click preferences, pick house curve that's build using Excel for specific speaker above, and then click EQ button.

In the newly opened EQ window, check the right part of screen, and click "Equalizer". Chances are our equalizer/DSP is not listed by REW. So, just choose "Generic"









Now, see that EQ filters button on top of the screen?
Click, and it will open a new window.
Here, we should only enable how many EQ channel we have according to the DSP.
For example, if our DSP has 10 channels EQ for midbass, uncheck 11-20 in REW.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Another general thing to consider when using REW is to correctly set speaker type and target level.

I adjust the target level until "target" is in the middle of speaker's measured response.


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

I don't think that anyone has gone to this much detail in describing their tuning process at this level. The fact that you actually are showing the inner workings of REW is another reason why I am following this build. Keep it coming Mass.


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## cochiloco (Feb 21, 2015)

Very helpful information. Thanks !


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Black Rain said:


> I don't think that anyone has gone to this much detail in describing their tuning process at this level. The fact that you actually are showing the inner workings of REW is another reason why I am following this build. Keep it coming Mass.


Yeah, the tuning process needs to be in detail 

I've been using REW since v4 when it can only equalize sub frequency region.
I think 5 years back had a discussion with John to make it full range, and then REW v5 comes  
Guess i'll share my REW-ing method in my build thread here.

Btw REW v5.1 just released last week. It does have feature to limit HF slope that acts like if we put low-pass on speaker. And the IR window is a lot better and looks as easy as ARTA.

Check it out.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Continue documenting my EQing process...

*Midbass EQ*

To EQ low frequency we can choose a more detailed smoothing. I use 1/6 smoothing.










Then click on "Filter Task" at the right pane. 









I choose to EQ one octave lower and higher than my crossover frequency. So, my midbass is bandpassed at 60-600, i'll EQ from 30 to 1200.

Another thing to note in REW is we have an option to set individual max boost and overall max boost. I set this to 6db because my DSP has a pre-EQ gain. In my DSP's pre-EQ gain, i set to -6db.
If the DSP does not have pre-EQ gain, be careful on boosting since it may clip digitally. Again, if the DSP does not have pre-EQ gain, it's safer to adjust target range below the middle of measure response so REW will only cut, not boost (see post #33 above)

Click on "Match Response to Target" and REW comes up with EQ result that should be put in DSP.










REW calculates the EQ nicely 
Those peaks in FR has been corrected, and some of the dips are boosted.

Thing to note about dips is sometime REW won't boost them. And since REW provides manual EQ, we might be tempted to boost it manually before clicking "Match Response To Target". 
Before i manually boost dip, i usually check Group Delay plot (REW main page - GD)










If the frequency has spike in group delay, i wouldn't boost it via EQ.
Just left it untouched. The fix should be in installation, rather than doing it electronically.

Right midbass EQ is done. Do the same process for left midbass.
The resulting EQ will be different (a lot), and it's normal.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*Midrange EQ*

Now, EQing midrange.
Measure left and right midrange seperately, use target curve for midrange, and process with auto EQ with REW. Same process as the midbass.










It took 9 parametric EQ to equalize BG Neo8s in my car. There're several peaks at around 1k, 2k and 6.5k. Once this peaks EQed the sound of BG Neo8s is very very sweeeet and detailed.
I've heard SS12M, 12MU, Esotar2, MPZ Studio (a $1800++ midrange), and i really loveee BG Neo8s sound. 
The minus point is of course BG Neo8s can't do as low as those terrific midranges. And it's big. Might not suitable to use in many cars. 

And the angle needs to be on axis to listener too. 
Tried installing it facing each other on A pilar, or on the dash facing windshield, and all i heard is just... noise. 
Sounds like a cheap tweeter playing midrange on those positions. 
But once i put in the right way, heavenly sounds!











At this time, i'm not too worried about difference in target level (dB) between midbass and midrange. I'll do gain matching later.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*Tweeter EQ*

Use same REWing process as all other speakers. I use 1/3 octav smoothing for tweeter.

Oh boy, the BG Neo3 in my car sound very different than what i've heard in my DIY homespeaker.










Measurement tells the tweeter roll off sharply above 10k. And this happens in my car install. When i tested in my bookshelf, BG Neo3s has a smooth top octave.

I fix it using several high-shelving EQ, which unfortunately can't be simulated in REW.
So, i do this manually, listen, and measured the result back and forth.










A lot better, but still has sharp roll off after 16k. This will be fixed in my "secret sauce", the final process.


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## Jazz80 (Dec 12, 2013)

masswork said:


> Impulse measurement tells time arrival for each speaker. What we want is for all speaker sound reach us at the same time.
> So, we need to reverse the time arrival into delay.
> Easy to do this in Excel with some formula...
> 
> ...


How did you find padding value? I mean 4.5? is it formula from cutting freq from sub or? Very helpful tuning process. Thank you so much


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## aculous (Jun 13, 2014)

love the build! can you detail more about your dsp? I am really interested in how you built it. I am looking into other solutions other than the minidsp for my application.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Excellent build log AND tuning/measurement tutorial. Thanks so much for taking the time to share this here. Of course, now we are all curious about the "secret sauce", LOL.

I wish I could fit those Neo8s in my new car, but it's a no go, especially with the GAF in place, haha.

Thanks again. Really great info for REW noobs especially.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Jazz80 said:


> How did you find padding value? I mean 4.5? is it formula from cutting freq from sub or? Very helpful tuning process. Thank you so much


Hi,
the padding is calculated with some formula i used to make sure it won't exceed MiniDSP max delay (7.5ms).

You can use any number you're convenient with - even without.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

aculous said:


> love the build! can you detail more about your dsp? I am really interested in how you built it. I am looking into other solutions other than the minidsp for my application.


Thanks.

The new DSP is based on Najda (www.waf-audio.com). It's very RAW compared to MiniDSP. 

You need a dual power supply +/- 12v and another +5v. A micro controller to handle remote-turn on/off sequencing in car. You can do the sequencing using discrete components too. 
You may also need to have a divider before Najda's analog input since it can only take 1V RMS input at max.

MiniDSP is fine. Me, i'm just adventurous to try new DSP


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Since I'm already using an Arduino microcontroller to interface some things with my car and will be adding a tablet soon, I was wondering how you handle sequencing of the amp turn on/off.

I assume I'd want to turn the car on, which will turn on the tablet and arduino. should I delay the amp turn on to make sure the audio stream is "awake," before the amps come on and then make sure the amps turn off first on power down?

Jay


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

bbfoto said:


> Excellent build log AND tuning/measurement tutorial. Thanks so much for taking the time to share this here. Of course, now we are all curious about the "secret sauce", LOL.
> 
> I wish I could fit those Neo8s in my new car, but it's a no go, especially with the GAF in place, haha.
> 
> Thanks again. Really great info for REW noobs especially.


Actually, the secret sauce is not really a secret  
I believe it's writen somewhere in some other threads. Hopefully can write the complete tuning process by tomorrow.

Right, BG Neo8s isn't really car friendly. 
I haven't tested the durability either. It's very hot in my hometown. Not sure how well these BGs can handle it. 
Btw i literally burned one BG Neo3 while building the DSP, duh


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

JayinMI said:


> Since I'm already using an Arduino microcontroller to interface some things with my car and will be adding a tablet soon, I was wondering how you handle sequencing of the amp turn on/off.
> 
> I assume I'd want to turn the car on, which will turn on the tablet and arduino. should I delay the amp turn on to make sure the audio stream is "awake," before the amps come on and then make sure the amps turn off first on power down?
> 
> Jay


Yep.
Amplifier should be the last to turn on, and the 1st to turn off. Or else loud thump may occur during on/off.
Some (if not all) amplifier has delayed turn on i believe. 

Arduino in my project is used to control the sequencing inside the DSP itself. Najda has this standby and mute procedure that must be followed when turning on and off. 
Unlike MiniDSP which automatically turned on when powered, Najda needs to stabilize (very quick) and then wake-up from standby. And during power down, the memory should be written first before terminating power. 
That's where Arduino plays it part.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Let's continue with EQing the sub

*Subwoofer EQ*

I use 1/12 or even 1/24 octave smoothing to EQ subwoofer.
I choose to EQ between 10-160Hz. The rest of the process is the same like any other drivers above.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*Adjusting Level*

At the beginning of tuning process, i set the level manually by ear. This is because without having a flat FR midranges, midbass, tweeters and sub, it will be very difficult to tell whether the level of each of the speaker is correctly set. So, i just set it by ear, and leave it previously.

Now, after EQing each drivers, let's do level matching correctly.

Oh btw, i don't really set the gain in amplifier. The JL XD has 4V input, and 4V output is what i set in the DSP 

To do level matching, i use RTA because it's simple to read, fast, and gives live result.
And because the RTA is used for level matching, i choose the broadest RTA smoothing possible, that's 1/1 octave.










Do this one side at a time.
Run the RTA with pink noise, and adjust level for each driver on that side until RTA is as flat as possible. That's between sub, midbass, midrange and tweeter.

I adjust the level only in the post-EQ gain section in the DSP. 
To minimize the chance of clipping, i lower the speaker level rather than increase it.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Here're some pics of installation result.:

The car










Limited trunk area. Just enough to put a small box for 12" shallow sub and a DSP










Midbass in door










BG Neo 3 and 8 in pillar. The blind spot is very minimum


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Now, before applying "secret sauce" i usually listen to the temporary result first.
Just curious 

Here's the video before final tuning section:





 
Not really bad actually


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Congratulations on a beautiful install. Definitely out of the box work here. I think this only the 2nd BG install I've seen. Thanks for posting your meticulous tuning process as well. Hope you're enjoying the sounds! 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

I have been enjoying your detail of tuning process. Your vehicle sounds phenomenal from that video.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

masswork said:


> Yep.
> Amplifier should be the last to turn on, and the 1st to turn off. Or else loud thump may occur during on/off.
> Some (if not all) amplifier has delayed turn on i believe.


Nowadays, I'd agree. Most have some form of "soft start," but I'm running some old Sony Mobile ES amps from about 1996. And I'm using them with my factory HU, and using signal sensing on my processor. I get a turn on/off thump, but when I used switched power as a turn on it was MUCH worse.

Since I am already using an Arduino Uno to do some other things, I will probably just set it up to handle on/off sequencing. Just wanted to confirm the order things should go in.

Thanks!

Jay


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## venki7744 (Feb 18, 2014)

Excellent stuff, sub-ed for more goodness .


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

teldzc1 said:


> Congratulations on a beautiful install. Definitely out of the box work here. I think this only the 2nd BG install I've seen. Thanks for posting your meticulous tuning process as well. Hope you're enjoying the sounds!
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


Thanks.
Am enjoying the sound very much!

I heard ribbon/planar tweeter bout 5 years ago. It was RAAL ribbon. Heard it 1st time and immediately fell in love. Then a Mundorf amt. Amazing sound too. So i tried a cheap Hivi RT13WE. For less than $100, the Hivi is really amazing. I promise myself not to use dome tweeter again 

So this time i try the BG Neo3, and BG Neo8s.
The BG Neo8s creates a huge holographic 3D sound stage. The micro detail and spaciousness is a lot better than everything i've heard before. The car seems to dissapear. Everything sounds soooo real.

Really, you should try these BG Neo3 and Neo8s together. Am pretty sure you'll be amazed.
Don't forget to put Neo8s at least 10-15cm from the back of its enclosure. Or else BG Neo8s losses its magic.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Black Rain said:


> I have been enjoying your detail of tuning process. Your vehicle sounds phenomenal from that video.


The video hides a problem which will be tuned in the final steps. Its the bass  
I'll upload the final tune sometime this week, hopefully. 

Just notice a problem with JL 600/6 today and had to fix it before continuing the final process.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

*JL XD 600/6 Guts*

Curious to check whats going on i decided to open the amp 










Open the case by removing 8 screws.

Power supply and main amp section.










Preamp and crossover




























I can't find any faulty component.
So i guess the issue is rather dirty contact. Spray philips contact cleaner into the potentiometers, switches, and headers.

Btw, i didn't see any exotic component in this XD amp. No burrbrown, blackgate, nichichon, elna caps, none found. But this amp sounds very3x good, clean and with lots of power.
I really think JL has done tremendous design on this amp.


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## islandman (Aug 24, 2007)

great install...loving the look of those planars


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Finally got the time to continue playing audio again 
I'll continue sharing my tuning process...

*Final Steps*

Now that I have EQ'd each driver independently and setup time delay, now it's time to level match all speakers so they all looks "text-book" in terms of FR.

I re-measure each driver independently after EQing.
And try to level match each of them in the processor. 
Thankfully this DSP has 0.1db gain adjustment, so level matching each driver is very easy.

Here's the result of level matching for all drivers.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

islandman said:


> great install...loving the look of those planars


Thanks 
They look serious, and sound very very very good indeed.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Before I apply global EQ to flatten out overall response, I make sure all drivers are time aligned correctly.
This means left tweeter, left midrange, and left midbass all have same time arrival.
And right tweeter, right midrange and right midbass also have same time arrival between them too.

We can see this easily in REW.
Open each driver's measurement, and then click overlay -> impulse.










Btw, I always use the IR start time rather than the peak to aligned drivers.

After drivers in each side have same time arrival, next is to align subwoofer.

Subwoofer is trickier to IR since it has very minimum high frequency content.
It's difficult to find where IR starts to rise.

The way I do it is by running a bandwidth limited sine sweep. Use the same bandwidth as the midbass. I use right midbass as reference since I drive on the right side.

By band limiting the sweep to same freq that can be covered both by midbass and sub (say: 100-300Hz), we can then adjust sub's delay until both IR looks the same.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Great to see your posts again! Very interested to see what your final curve looks like. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Final curve is on the way 

Now, before I go to final curve, hourse curve, target curve, or voicing section - (whatever it calls... the "secret sauce") I usually look on how the DSP is configured.

My DSP (and MiniDSP too) has an input EQ and output EQ for each channels independently.

MiniDSP:









Najda DSP:










This feature makes final voicing A LOT easier.

So, what I have is now:
1. Each speakers EQ'd independently *following target curve based on each speaker's crossover*
2. Each speakers are level matched
3. Each speakers all have same time arrival.

Now that I have input EQ, what I do now is unload house curve from REW, run full measurement on left and right side independently, and target for flat response.
Yes, flat response.
I know this may sound counter intuitive since flat FR will sound dry, no bass, etc etc... in short: not that I like to hear. 
But since we have input EQ on hand, the final tuning will be done usually using only 3 shelving EQ at most...
So, if we have 6 EQ on input channel, i usually use 3 of them to flatten the response as flat as possible. And then use the remaining 3 EQ to "voice" overall system.


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

nice work!


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Wow, almost a year!

Here's the latest sound.
Pardon the picture quality though... Really dark


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Yeah pretty coll thread! Thanks masswork, please update!


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Sounds quite nice from my headphones 

I like the work done here. I used to have the neo8s and neo3 combination as well a few years ago. I have learned a bit since then and have wondered how good that setup could be made to sound now that I have a better understanding of how to set up the car and how to tune.

Keep up the great work!


-Steve


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

The Indonesian guys OWN youtube on the amount and quality of the SQ and SQ demo vijeos. They seem to have quite the SQ culture there. Now if they would start exporting some of there custom A panels they would all be too rich to do Youtube vijeos.


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## DearS (May 14, 2005)

Cool A pillars!


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Hey,
it's been almost 2 years since i posted in DIYMA.

Anyway, this setup has major changes in terms of crossovers and overall tuning.

Here's the latest sound i recorded couple of hours ago:






Will post some more in day time


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Good to see you are back! 

That sounds insane. What is the current setup and how are they tuned?


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Hi Eddie,
thanks for the warm welcome 

The setup is still the same, all the same gear.

Differences i made is with crossover tuning.
Previously i used all LR4 crossover.
Now i'm using BW2 crossover with the following cutting points:
50Hz - 350Hz - 6K.
I think this sounds much better overall.

Now, since i change from LR4 to BW2 - i need an extra 3 peaking EQ to make sure those BW crossovers doesn't add 3db in their region.

Since i have limited DSP resource, i sacrifice 3 EQ band (in the global area, not per-driver EQ), and replace them to cut 50Hz, 350Hz and 6K by 3dB.
I replace EQ bands having less than 1dB and high Q.


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Hmmm  

It is a matter of approach, a question of preference. 

The small boundries between using the xover as a noise filter and a limiter in between using it as a master EQ for the channel it domains right? 

50-350-6 means that you have little eq work on the tweeters and midbasses but a ton of work with eq over the midranges - depending where they and the midbasses peak of course. 

what about 50-500/600-6 ?

what about 50-500/600 till 4/4.5 - 6 ? 

what about 50-200 then 300 till ? and then 6? 

From my experience I usually find troubles mainly at the following conjunctions:

20-40hz - > vibrations bass coloration or maybe attitude - don't know... I don't like anything strong below 40hz any way. I usually find my self cutting it down with the xover.

60hz - Kick drum emphasis, I usually find my self boosting this area.

The slope from 80 to 250 and then the climb to 600 or so - 200-300 is an area at which both kick drums and vocal are extremely affected.

After that the next PITA is usually at 5K it really hurts and find my self decreasing it time after time over and over again -> I can do it with EQ, I can do it with the Xover.

your approach, I am very fund of it and I have learnt a lot from this thread! 

Interesting.


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

eddieg said:


> Hmmm
> 
> It is a matter of approach, a question of preference.
> 
> ...


Mmm, actually the change of crossover points and type mainly because i think between 250-350Hz, the Satori is a much better driver than the Neo8S.
Same with midr-tw, BG neo8s sounds bigger when playing until 6k compared to Neo3 playing as low as 3k.

There's no change in EQ, other than those 3 new additions to cut as an effect of switching from LR (0 sum) to BW2 (3db sum).


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

Here's another video to "show off" natural sound of mainly BG Neo8s playing right in the midrange area.


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## norurb (Jun 28, 2013)

masswork said:


> Hey,
> it's been almost 2 years since i posted in DIYMA.
> 
> Anyway, this setup has major changes in terms of crossovers and overall tuning.
> ...


Sounds fantastic. What is your recording device?


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## masswork (Feb 23, 2009)

norurb said:


> Sounds fantastic. What is your recording device?


Thanks 
I usually use 3 devices:
1. A sony handycam
2. Asus cellphone
3. Zoom H1

You can notice the difference between them by simple checking the background noise. If its very quiet, then it's recorded using zoom h1.


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## norurb (Jun 28, 2013)

Very good, thanks. I've had a Zoom H2n for a few weeks now. I'm curious about the Q2n since it does 1080p video and xy pattern stereo mic.


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

I've seen some of Zoom's product reviews done by "unbox therapy" -> it's a wonderful youtube channel and as well "Z reviews" 

Just recommending for people that like audio equipment and gizmos


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## imickey503 (Dec 16, 2015)

May the SQ Journey never end. Kind of sad that today, we still don't have much out there for Audio nerds like us on the youtube stage even. Few SPL channels, and PS audio just got some videos up. But for the most part, it seems us Car audio guys are pretty quiet for the most part and just keep doing our thing. 

Wish this section of the Manosphere got more traction


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## lxpin1 (Nov 26, 2017)

Hi Rizal,
let me ask you to share more details about your Beast 2 dsp please? Maybe you posted something but search doesn't help me. I'm just curious to see it.
Cheers,
Alex


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