# 20 years later, is it a Mirage?



## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I left car audio after SBN 2005 where my Evo was on display in the Zapco booth. That car replaced my Legend Coupe that was totaled after SVR in 2003.
I still talk to a lot of the old crew about ideas we never built or experiments in the shop. Liquid nitrogen tanks, stats on hinges and holes in the rule book. Fun times.
Now 17 years later I'm driving long distance to see family regularly and shuttling my daughters around and my wife suggested i put a system in the econobox i bought because of all the miles I'm doing. She kept asking what i wanted and I'd mention the interesting products I'd like to play with.
My daughter was also graduating college early but had to do a research project to finish her degree. I had some products and like to experiment so we put something together based on something a friend wanted to try in a pretty serious build he's planning. So a proof of concept was started.

Edit (should probably list equipment)
2021 mitsubishi mirage G4
Joying 8" (OE head to loc to A/D was a pain)
MiniDSP. Harmony 8x12
Hybrid Unity 12 dvc
Purifi PTT6.5
Bliesma T34-B


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I'll start with the kick panels. I know, who does kick panels anymore or a 2-way for that matter but there's a method to the madness.
















The mids are Purifi PTT6.5X04. They would not fit, and i wouldn't want them in the door anyway playing above 1khz so a kick panel is a must. I've built many before for path length advantages when 2 seat judging was the norm. 
I figured I'd have to go with an aperiodic setup to get the best out of these speakers.
Looking at the sill there is a ton of volume, i just needed to find a vent.








Variovents didn't fit and are too small for these drivers. I'd often look in nature to find something i could repurpose or make too solve a problem. I realized trailer light housings were a suitable size and shape and bought metal housings, mounting brackets and rubber seals and started cutting.








Cardboard template, hole saw, nibbler and the rear chamber is accessed.









I made a trim ring and used rivets and 3M 5200 to add metal mesh to the back of the light housing, giving me some depth to trap the damping material.








Here's the rubber gasket that will both seal and compress the damping material in place. It's rubbed and locks into place once seated properly. This will be part of the kick panel once complete.


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## hella356 (Dec 11, 2016)

Wait, are you saying this is doubling up as a research project towards your daughter's degree? I'm already loving the inventive approach AND that your wife urged you to put in a system.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Next is making a kick panel that mates up to this. I started with a plaster mold of the floor/ firewall to make sure i had perfect dormant and alignment. Once that was fiberglassed and ready i removed the screws that hold the light housing to the sill. (The 5200 was fully cured by then) I cut the metal light mounting bracket down since it was a right angle intended to mount a trailer light to a fender and put a bead of 5200 on the back. I then screwed it through the kick panel and into the screw hooked for the light housing in the sill so they were aligned. Once cured i could remove them and cut out the interior oval and fiberglass in place. Metal mesh was bonded to the gasket to compress the damp ING material also.








I wanted to make sure the front edge of the kick panel where it meets the sill trim didn't choke off the vent so i used dome aluminum mesh to hold the shape i wanted. I routed rings for the speakers then began laying wood strips in the interior. They serve 2 purposes, they give a wide edge for glazing the exterior surfaces but also section off the interior so i can attach wool damping inside the kicks later.
The rest is pretty typical, stretch cloth, glass, sand, fill, texture and paint. The OE kicks were sandwiched between so they were fiberglassed inside and out. I used epoxy resin mostly because this was either done in the driveway or living room. Couldn't have the smell change my wife's mind. 
The rear hole has an MDF panel glassed in so it followed the kick panel and chassis shape with bonding posts for easy removal.








Important when you have to take then on and off a dozen times to tune the damping material.
















I left a small ridge at the bottom outer edge so the carpet and floor mats could be tucked under. I also split the front edge of the OE kick where the sill locks in so the sill would lock in and curve to the shape of the kick.








Painted, internally damped and ready for install.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Yes we've taken measurements in stages and she made it easier for me to generate Biquads for bessel filters. I'll get to the main part of that soon.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Once in the car, or should I say in and out and in and out and in and out... the AP membrane could be dialed in. 
















Heres the initial DATS measurement








Here's after adding material to the vent:









I was running out of room with fiberglass insulation as the damping material and the changes were subtle. I switched to rockwool and fine tuned to match the L and R by adding fiberglass insulation with it. 
I have more tuning to do but with 40w driving them at the moment it seems pointless to do now.

BTW notice the DLS UR6 grille that fit perfectly. Might need a different solution once there's some power and excursion from these speakers.


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## Gill (Sep 26, 2007)

Impossible, Bill. Off to great start. Never seen that approach to a kick panel, before!


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

I like your enthusiasm on this project Bill, seems like nothing is ..... impossible..!


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

MythosDreamLab said:


> seems like nothing is ..... impossible..!


Impossible Bill was my name going back to the old carsound forum. My old shop was called Sounds Impossible. 

We often did the impossible. Can't spray lacquer clear at the hotel the day before finals. Box springs and blankets make a perfect spray booth. Beautiful finish without a speck of dust like it was done by pros and not a couple of idiots from NJ.


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I love it ….

man I am sorry for thinkin you were a noob
I really mean that…. I hope we can be friends 

that is an amazing build…. I love the install quality on those kicks. Did you do impedance measurements to so what kind of acoustic damping the AP gives ?

what is the total Q….


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

No worries at all. In a way I'm a 17 year old noob with really good genes. I was always interested in testing theories, i had an IASYS back in 2001 and was using DSP's and digital gear in the early 90's. One if the best things about car audio back then were all the installs pushing the envelope and trying anything they could think of in a car to get an edge and make it sound better. That's my mindset while taking advantage of the best tools available. 
My philosophy in this build is the speakers and the car are the major contributor of distortions in the reproduction of sound. What if anything can i do to remove that? Find accurate clear speakers and figure out how to install them to get the most out of them while limiting the negative effects caused by the vehicle itself.
Yes a lot of that can be tuned out but what if those same tuning tools can be applied lightly instead of relied upon and i can have a more direct control over the sound? That's what Dirac wouldn't allow me to do directly once it was active. 

I targeted a .7Q value to match reach side since the enclosures are slightly different front chamber volume. Once i get some real power to them i think I'll raise it a bit. I think its a bit overdamped now but the accuracy from them rely blend well with the tweeters. The tweeters are crossed at 1.7ish Khz and the mid around 1k. The transition is pretty seamless and they seem to disappear well.


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## steelwindmachine (May 15, 2017)

Are you sure the MiniDSP Harmony has enough power for what you're looking to do?

Also, with the Dirac Live, check out this thread and shared Guide Doc: MiniDSP C-DSP 8x12 DL (Dirac Live): Quick Tuning Guide

I'm in NJ and the shop name sounds very familiar. I might have visited, but don't recall where it was located. I was in central NJ back then.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Definitely not enough power. That's the easy part to fix and it was only a few hundred to get a single piece and start testing. 
System is all together now, this is more of a retrospective. I finished it just in time to go to SVR so we could get subjective expert opinions. Power is next then fabricating a few other things to test.

We were in Highlands near Sandy Hook. Did you compete in IASCA or hit any shows?


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## steelwindmachine (May 15, 2017)

Nice. would love you see more pictures of your build/install 

I did stop in that place a handful of times probably to window shop and gawk  No, I've never competed. I used to do a few car shows in my 87 Monte Carlo SS and later in my 87 Turbo Buick Regal (T-Type).


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Hope you got to hear a car when you visited. We usually had around 6-8 comp cars active, there was usually one around and the guys were good about demos.

I'll get on putting the other parts together. Sub box and tweeters will be up soon. I have to dig for some more photos. I didn't treat this like an IASCA build and take tons of pics since they don't require install anymore.


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## steelwindmachine (May 15, 2017)

i don't recall getting a demo, though it was over 20 years ago...so, could just be my memory 

Don't know of any comp-capable shops around here in Ocean County.

There's an Auto Image & Security shop in town, but it seems they mostly do dealership work, truck wheels and when I went in to ask them about DSPs and RTA work, they looked at me like I had three eyeballs =\


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I made a spare tire well mold so I didn't easy up all the trunk space in the tiny clown car. I bring a lot of tools with me to my parents. I also didn't want to eliminate the spare because of all the driving. I find out how smart that was about a week ago when driving to NYC.








The well is most of the trunk and the tire is tiny so a good amount of volume to work with. 
I made a baffle that sat on top of the tire and a front chamber that dogs into the rim.
















Fiberglassed the top baffle shape to do the sub below floor level but sit above the lower baffle. This creates a "leak" from the front to back chamber. I may tune this with an aperiodic vent once there is enough power, truth note its 40w per vc.

Note the pizza boxes. They are a key element of this install! I typically worked on Saturday mornings and Friday is pizza night at my house 








A little scrap wood from a birthday decoration made its way onto the baffle. Them the usual sand, fill, paint.

















Mitsubishi logo is center of box. For some reason they couldn't put the tiny tire in the center of the well. It sure isn't too make room for the performance exhaust in this 78hp rocket. Things like that could drive me crazy but I'm not sweating those details in my own car with a build with this intention. Its still nice than my Legend and its carpeted kickpanels..








Cut out the spare tire cover then matched that with the floor and sandwiched some perf in between.









I also added some kayak handles to the sides so i can lift it in and out easier. It fits the contour of the well perfectly so it doesn't move but takes a bit of force to unseat.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

steelwindmachine said:


> i don't recall getting a demo, though it was over 20 years ago...so, could just be my memory
> Don't know of any comp-capable shops around here in Ocean County.


Hahn at Lee's Audio Video is near them I think and has done some dsp's and installs a lot of focal and audio frog. Doesn't really get into tuning which was always the most important part to me. We tried to build something unique every time but hopefully make them all sound equally good. I put a lot of time into seeing 2 xover points in this system


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Nice job so far! 👍🏼


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Can you explain what an aperiodic enclosure is. Also, why you would be using that. Is it a port, or does it vent into a different area of the car


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

Those are some old school style kicks.

Looks good and I'm interested in seeing more


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Sam b said:


> Can you explain what an aperiodic enclosure is. Also, why you would be using that. Is it a port, or does it vent into a different area of the car


Here's a great description





Aperiodic Loudspeaker Enclosure Design


Information about Aperiodic Loudspeaker Enclosure Design.



diyaudioprojects.com




Think of it as a small sealed box that has a leak to a larger one. If you control the leak you can get the advantages of both a small and large sealed box. 
In the link the speaker cabinet is the small sealed and the room Is the large one. That could also be a trunk of a car. 
The key is to adjust the amount of material that resists airflow to tune the response. 
In my application the panel i built is the small front enclosure and the chassis of the car is the rear larger enclosure. The speakers I'm using have an F3 of 35Hz. They would never play that low in the kick panel i built and the impedance at that frequency is >60 ohms. After tuning the membrane between the enclosures the impedance was down to 11 ohms @23Hz
The.accuracy is better but in general the efficiency suffers. It was a way to get the best performance from a speaker that requires more space than i had available.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

This sounds like exactly what I need. I have mid bass speakers that are sealed and choked out I believe. (AD neo800) They are sealed in .45 cubic foot each. And I’m not happy at all w them right now. The box could be vented down into a section of the car, it’s a new Supra so I have limited space


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Sam b said:


> Can you explain what an aperiodic enclosure is. Also, why you would be using that. Is it a port, or does it vent into a different area of the car


A-periodic is a membrane instead of a port that adds acoustic resistance/damping. There tuned like a PR (sorta)

you can get (some) the benefits of IB but be smaller then sealed, and some benefits of ported

it’s a way to load the speaker at lower frequencies, helps with excursion and power
All kinds of benefits, 

hard to tune and get right tho…. But cool none the less


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

My car is pretty small too. The trailer light housing i use is approx 6.5" wide and 2.5" high. I'd be very cautious cautious/careful about cutting into a supra chassis. 
I actually added a strut tower and lower control arm brace and will be adding a solid piece below where i cut that will attach the underbody panels I'm planning to make. These are extra precautions in a 78HP 3cyl car...

In some cars there is an open area behind the door hinges that can be used. It usually connects to the A pillars and could have the same effect. 
Some cars have a nice void where the floor and firewall meet but I haven't poked around in a Supra to say what might work.

I've even had a vent just open into the underdash area. It may be easier to close that off from the listening area than finding a way into a chassis void.

This can be a huge task, I've moved fuse panels and modules for speaker locations. I remember a car where we extended and moved the harness inside the sill for space


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)




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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

This back enclosure is where my mid bass is. That’s the unfortunate part of the Supra, mid bass is behind u. It’s a tuning nightmare. 
But under that box I made is the original mid bass enclosure from stock that does port into the structure at some point. Maybe I could do something from the bottom of the enclosure.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Sounds completely feasible but you'll want to maintain the smaller front enclosure and larger rear to maximize the benefits so the volume of the OE enclosure matters. 
How high is the xover on them and how much power? Do you have a build log i can look at?
This should help improve transient response of those drivers too.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

They are crossed at 80-350 
I’m confused for sure. But after seeing what you did, I’m interested in trying this.
I built everything myself so I can tell you everything if you need


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Key considerations
Front should be .25 - .33 of vas
Rear should be .75-100% of vas
Vent between should be at approx 50% of cone area. 
Aperiodic vent is a leak between boxes. Make sure there are no other leaks so it can be properly tuned.
Make sure resistive material (insulation) is compressed (sandwiched between mesh panels) and can be adjusted. 

Back in the day the USD cars had large midbass drivers in the rear side panels along with horns and aperiodic subs. They made it work.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

And now for the tweeters. I'm using the larger Bliesma T34B. They were the first and last thing i installed. At first they were mounted in 4" fog light housings i bought on Amazon for $15. This gave me a free space baseline (no baffle) and i could easily aim them to find the best angle for the drivers seat. I was definitely thinking of Earl Zausmer's first install in his BMW. Henry did a great job on that car!


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

This definitely has me curious. Sorry to hi-jack your thread. But it’s a cool one


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

I cut holes in my kicks and vent them to behind the front tires , full open IB 

SQ is excellent, I put some fine mesh so tires don’t kick rocks on my speakers

then I have dynamat covers for when it rains and snows

when I have to go super small sealed , I turn power down on kicks and up on doors and net almost as good Sq 5% maybe


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

This was the basis for the kick panel angle too. I listened this way for months to be sure they were in the place i wanted them. This angle was used for the kick panels too
Now i could start building stuff

My daughter printed waveguides i could use to fabricate housings. I had to avoid obstructing the side curtain airbags and maintain the angle. I got the dash shape and cut the A pillars below the airbag.

























I made a metal bracket that used the tether bolt for the airbag that would like up with the metal i molded into the horn of plenty.
These mount by using the A pillars fingers into the dash the bolton the pillar and are molded on the bottom to the shape of the dash.








Thr A pillars were notched where they overhung the waveguides and perf was reversed in that hole. They were covered to match the headliner instead of getting Sem paint in another color. This luxurious automobile had a 2 tone interior.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Now a waveguide offers some advantages but can have disadvantages too. Typically a higher frequency driver works best without a baffle. This easy all sound is low pressure reflections. If there is no baffle there are no step losses.
A waveguide provides direct high pressure waves until it doesn't. It will basically drop to low pressure as soon as the wavelength is longer than the guide. Drastic changed are not good which Is why the speaker in free space is better when the baffle isn't big enough. With i tweeter i measured to have a Fc in the 750's the waveguide was not big enough to have an xover point that would be more optimal. I could have set it ~2200hz

So i started modeling larger irregular shaped baffles. After experimenting to see if there was a difference.








I said pizza boxes were an important phase of this build and expect all of you to save them now.
The results were immediately noticeable if not completely impractical. So i started modeling based on more airbags and getting the ideal length for my xover point. If i couldn't manage the length i created an angle so the step frequency was always different and the step losses were minimized.









I converted pizza boxes to wood to acrylic. 
Mounted The tweeters to be waveguides and put it all together in time for SVR.


















I'd say phase 1 compete and am pretty happy with the result.
Power is coming then I'll play around with a few other ideas.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I’m totally in for this! I heard it, now I want to read it / see it! Fantastic brother! I hope to see you in September! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Impossible Bill said:


> Now a waveguide offers some advantages but can have disadvantages too. Typically a higher frequency driver works best without a baffle. This easy all sound is low pressure reflections. If there is no baffle there are no step losses.
> A waveguide provides direct high pressure waves until it doesn't. It will basically drop to low pressure as soon as the wavelength is longer than the guide. Drastic changed are not good which Is why the speaker in free space is better when the baffle isn't big enough. With i tweeter i measured to have a Fc in the 750's the waveguide was not big enough to have an xover point that would be more optimal. I could have set it ~2200hz
> 
> So i started modeling larger irregular shaped baffles. After experimenting to see if there was a difference.
> ...


the acrylic to load it down and diffraction reasons ?

your crossed at 1.7, yeah you definitely need as much waveguide as you can get

I bet it sounds exciting


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

The size of my waveguide will perform well to say 2k. Since the outer edge of the guide is mostly in space there would be a complete shift from direct sound to reflected sound at that point in all 360 degrees. 
When i put the cardboard on the dash you could notice the focus and detail right away. They were large enough to cover the passband and some of the crossband. 
They weren't practical to see where I'm going or have functioning safety equipment.
I trimmed them to have the desired effect wherever possible, if not possible i tried to make sure the step losses were inconsistent and varying wavelengths shifted to low pressure to reduce their impact, spreading it out within the crossband. 
The initial RTA measurement was + /- 1db in this range and very lively sounding. Because we're hearing just a really good speaker and limited artifacts from the vehicle. you can think if the acrylic as mounting a waveguide on the largest albeit odd shaped baffle of sufficient size the room (car) would allow. 

It may all be completely irrelevant to what you hear when listening in the drivers seat compared to any other speaker alignment. 
Other cars car sound better, stage wider and be incredibly enjoyable.
This is doing something different. There is maybe a hint of realism that isn't often reproduced. There is a stability that is unusual. Open windows, move your head it really doesn't change much. I attribute these things to hearing the speaker. A mic can't tell the difference between direct and reflected sound but i think our ears can.

Its easy to try and I've dumped my life savings into pizza boxes so test it yourself. 
















Its a running joke around here spread it worldwide.
The 2nd pic is what my daughter put in my backpack after SVR when dirac frustrated my tuning efforts and i just gave up and hung out.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

bertholomey said:


> I’m totally in for this! I heard it, now I want to read it / see it! Fantastic brother! I hope to see you in September!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I'm working on the car and the wife to make that trip.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Innovative ideas and solid implementation into a unique and likely outstanding sounding build !!!

Though for a brief second you had me scared that you were going for a full "Patrick Bateman" install with those pizza box dash waveguides  😂


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I drive with them on the back seat so if i stopped for a while i could pop them on. I may have heard "you're not going to drive like that" a few times.


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## hella356 (Dec 11, 2016)

You are a complete madman. I can't wait to see where this all ends up!


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## Spud100 (Mar 30, 2015)

Sorry to rain on your parade. 
I really hope that you are not involved in a head on crash after you have compromised the structural integrity if the body structure of your car.
Cutting holes in the body structure at the base of the A pillars is really a NO NO.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Thanks. I really hope I'm not in a head on collision too. I understand if you won't be calling shotgun in my car. I don't take any cutting lightly and have consisted the integrity of the chassis.
The hole is a single layer of sheet metal and its filled with a 3 dimensional metal housing with horizontal and vertical surfaces that is certainly thicker and stronger than what was removed .
The hole is in fact an oval with no corners or edge that can tear.
There is a tubular chromoly brace added under the car that connects at 4 points to the front subframe and lower control arms.

I think the side impact could be worse but in this little car what I've done won't likely make a difference there. I can't believe there aren't even air bags in the models sold in Asia. To address this i added a tubular chromoly strut tower brace, that area needed it anyway with the basic McPhearson suspension hanging the strut and connecting to a stamped sheet metal lower control arm. 
I'm adding a box section to the frame rails where the vents are. They will also give me attachment points for the underbody panels I'm making. Can't let the added weight of the system hurt my mpg
Thr difference these supports have made is pretty surprising in every day driving. 

Forget my little vents. NHTSA approved this car and tons are sold elsewhere that are far less safe. Maybe you should be a good Samaritan and let the owners in the Philippines and Malaysia know their days are numbered? They have dedicated forums in those areas and they get a lot of rain, not sure about parades though.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

hella356 said:


> You are a complete madman. I can't wait to see where this all ends up!


I just learned i am a madman, just not in a way you thought.
My first Comp car in 91 was a convertible RX-7. This build would probably work great in a convertible with some serious power added...where's my sawzall, its time to experiment some more! A 4dr econobox convertible...brilliant. I'll save tons of weight and enjoy driving by the shore much more...except when it rains or I'm stuck behind a parade that is.


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

I have always wanted to see a 3D print done in water clear for a dash corner mounted waveguide. We have had a few things printed in water clear at work and while it has some distortion is fairly good optically. 

But this is pretty awesome.



Sam b said:


> This back enclosure is where my mid bass is. That’s the unfortunate part of the Supra, mid bass is behind u. It’s a tuning nightmare.
> But under that box I made is the original mid bass enclosure from stock that does port into the structure at some point. Maybe I could do something from the bottom of the enclosure.


Haas effect can be used to mostly fix that.

If you have DSP and amplifier channels you can fix that by adding a smaller front midbass. You can have some pretty big spl differences and not matter, like up to 9 dB difference. For midbass the first driver you hear is the location where your brain thinks it is all coming from, so you have to have a slight delay on the rear midbass but not so much they are out of phase. The gotcha is that the frequency response has to be the same. There will likely be differences between the two positions due to nulls that will make it fall apart at certain frequencies.

But you can make a huge improvement by doing so.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Focused4door said:


> I have always wanted to see a 3D print done in water clear for a dash corner mounted waveguide. We have had a few things printed in water clear at work and while it has some distortion is fairly good optically.
> But this is pretty awesome.
> 
> You read my mind. I'd love to make a final waveguide / baffle in one piece and see the tweeter floating in space with embedded traces for speaker leads.
> I actually mentioned this in the beginning and had my daughter ask the university if they could make a bracket out of transparent aluminum for full effect. In her defense she hasn't seen star trek and is a CSE student. Her professor got the joke .


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

Tabletop vacuum forming machine and some clear PETG sheets - hey presto, transparent waveguides


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I tested PETG and it didn't handle the heat sitting on the dash that well. Back when i worked on some automotive projects we would test to 105C. ABS was the go to and what i have now, will switch to metallic if clear can't happen. I'm open to suggestions and ideas, i certainly wasn't too take this further.

Machined from polycarbonate seems like a temperature stable option that shouldn't warp or shrink.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Thought i would touch on the vehicle integrity issue since this car has a great deal of similarities to a 1980 Dodge Aries K. ( i mean no offense to their owners)
I know that to sell this car in the US they had to install 7 air bags and additional dash supports to pass safety standards. It is a tin can like most econoboxes. There are Smart cars and there is this dumb car.
I take safety very seriously, and always have. I cut the firewall on Phil Petracca's 560 SEC after templating and making a steel enclosure that fit in the wheel well behind the splash guard
Ask Ira Senoff with subs under each front seat for a stealth install in his jeep after having his supra stolen. 1/4" angle welded along the frame and drip rails then closed up with plate. Grand Cherokee rock crawler.
I always strive to make the car better and not just in sound related ways. 

Here's the lower bar i added to my car before starting my install.








You can see the K member is spot welded sheet metal and the control arms are stamped. A curb would twist that easily. This brace increases the strength in that area and makes both frame rails more rigid.








This is the boxes section below the cut. Even though I'm confident i filled the hole with something as rigid and strong the area below it is reinforced too. This will get further reinforcement when i make the side sections for an underbody similar to what we built for our LeMons car. Maybe some day we'll see front woofers like Phil and Ira in here

I'm careful about the integrity and practicality of my work. Almost every car i built was a daily driver ( except Phil's trailer queen) 
Tom Rosinski's CRX was wrecked on the way home from winning SBN. The car was totaled but Tom and none of the audio gear was hurt or out of place thankfully. Another competitor of ours, Chris Stripto with a Dodge Neon bought the car and is rebuilding it. 
No one should cut anything out of a car until they know the structure won't be compromised. Know how to weld or know a really good welder. Understand the strength of materials and the appropriate thickness to use. I recognize this is a diy forum and NO ONE SHOULD THINK AN IDEA AND A SAWZALL IS A GOOD STARTING POINT.


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

Bill. I respect your appreciation for safety, but here's my .02:

The area you cut has a negligible affect on vehicle structure. The rounded ends of the hole will eliminate any stress rises and the area removed will affect moment loading in any way. The only type of damage that that whole could affect is a point impact directly on the rocker from the outside of the vehicle, or directly up from below the vehicle. The first is unlikely because any impact in that general area is going to hit the door and pillar, not the rocker. The later is impossible unless you're literally dropping the car on a big rock.

Second, those under chassis braces do nothing to increase impact resistance. The design adds slight torsional rigidity, but has zero shear resistance. Any side loading just causes the bars to buckle. The subframe may be stamped and stitch welded but you dont give it nearly enough credit. The strength doesn't come from the welding on a part like that.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Appreciate the input. I had a chance to look at a totaled car that was hit on the drivers A pillar. The control arm folded and the k member had a serious kink behind the control arm mount where the rounded area is. The cabin encroachment wasn't horrible but the drivers firewall / strut tower was heavily displaced with the extra support NHTSA required. Similar impacts I've seem on other car models will cause some visible damage on the opposite side but it looked like the drivers side just folded and absorbed the energy. 
My thinking is these cars were not designed with safety in mind given the markets they are intended for, price point and the regulations in those countries. A good example is this car does not meet new Australian safety standards for side impacts and can't be sold in that market. Most models don't need to make changes to be compliant at all. 
Reinforcement is a worthwhile proposition, even if its just peace of mind.

I'm comfortable that my vehicle is not compromised. It isn't the safest car but its much safer than my Evo because because there's a big difference between hitting something at 15 vs 150. 
I really don't wasn't people to think they can cut any hole and sound awesome. A convertible is not just a coupe they cut the roof off.


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

I totally understand. And it's good to look at wrecked models before cutting. Any more, control arms are ablative armor - part of the crash structure. Every piece of metal that folds is that much energy not transferred to the passengers.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

So I have another question. I had the Supra question above. So I just realized that the cubic volume for the speakers I have is 1.54 cubic foot each. I have them in a half a cube and I’m wondering why they aren’t what I thought. Anyway. If you look at the box I posted, not the sub box, the rear mid bass, I have that sitting on the stock box which is basically a big vented enclosure. 
My question is. What if I cut 8” holes in my enclosure and vent them into the original enclosure, would that work, it would give me almost an IB setup. 
Would I have to deaden the inner workings of the stock enclosure for a mid bass. It’s difficult to reach. I will post a pic of what it looks like stock and now.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

*














Now you can see what’s what. The piece I build simply sits on top of the stock “subs”. Which are trash and sound like garbage. If I remove the old subs and vent my mid bass enclosure into the stock one, would that give me technically IB*


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Technically that gives you a larger vented ( as in ported) enclosure. Is a good idea to capture that wasted space for your undersized enclosure. You may just need to block off the factory vent and keep it sealed. You don't need the extra low end given you have a dedicated subwoofer.

I don't think IB or AP are a real solution to your problem. You don't need those speakers to play very low, you need to hear them. Half of there energy won't and the other half has to be reflected numerous times first. Since the behind behind you directing those sound waves forward so they can be reflected helps but an effective baffle would help too since that could give +6db towards the listening area.

Challenging car for sure. My first comp cast was a 91 RX-7 convertible. I started with 16 MB Quart speakers and 5 amps. Very complicated build and the second i started tuning it i started pulling fuses just so i could figure out what i was hearing. Wasted weeks of install time and $1000's. But it sounded pretty great once i figured out what i needed ( or really didn't need).


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Ok. I get that then. But what do you mean by adding a baffle. So you mean a board on top of the 8” mid bass to reflect from. Is it possible to sketch me something. I have aspergers and I’m a tough learner without seeing it.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Let's rewind a bit. If i were handed your car to tune at a comp i would star by getting everything i can from all other speakers. So I'd probably disconnect them and tune the rest and see how small of a hole is left to fill.
Then i would power 1 of them and get an idea what it took to get linear response via xover settings and see if i could i localize it. 
Then i would add in the second one and see what that does. Does output from them increase at the listening position? How well do they interact with each other? What effect do they have on the staging and imaging? Try inverting phase on each speaker separately, then both to see what's best.
Then fine tune from there. Maybe switch your focus to minimizing the need for them before changing anything. 
You could be happy with the result, proper tuning is the important part. I'm not sure what equipment you have to tune with but i bet there's more potential in your system...there's always more potential.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Sam b said:


> So I have another question. I had the Supra question above. So I just realized that the cubic volume for the speakers I have is 1.54 cubic foot each. I have them in a half a cube and I’m wondering why they aren’t what I thought. Anyway. If you look at the box I posted, not the sub box, the rear mid bass, I have that sitting on the stock box which is basically a big vented enclosure.
> My question is. What if I cut 8” holes in my enclosure and vent them into the original enclosure, would that work, it would give me almost an IB setup.
> Would I have to deaden the inner workings of the stock enclosure for a mid bass. It’s difficult to reach. I will post a pic of what it looks like stock and now.


Sam, you should probably start a new thread for your questions on how to improve your Supra install & setup, so as not to muck up Bill's build log.  I'll watch for it if you do.

@Impossible Bill

I was curious if you had considered putting the tweeters in the kickpanels above or below the midwoofers, with or without the round 3D printed waveguides and/or baffle extensions?

Tradeoffs. But seems like it would reduce the multiple comb filtering off of all the glass boundaries and dash/door a bit and reduce vertical lobing (dependent on their c-to-c spacing), no? Seems like the seating position is fairly low in that car.

More and more I'm just not a fan of large pods on the dash/pillars/sail panels, especially in a daily driver. If it was a dedicated comp car, and not a DD, no worries. But at the same time, I know and appreciate what you are shooting for in this build with its 2-way front stage & X/O configuration.

Wish you could have gotten those midwoofers buried a bit deeper into the far L & R kickpanels as well, but I use the same drivers and know how large and deep the motor/magnets are on these, so....


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

I started using PM to discuss mine. I didn’t mean to hi-jack this thread. But very interested in this approach


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Bbfoto, 
I did consider mounting the tweeter down in the kick. I used that alignment in most cars i built when pathlengths were critical for 2 seat judging. It was entirely possible to get a good stage and image well from both seats even with a 5.25" There were a bunch of reasons i decided not to:
Initial concept came from a research point of view. Waveguide and baffle were to be used.
I did that many times and wanted to do something different.
Kick panel area is small in tiny car
Decided to focus on 1 seat performance to make life easier.

I could have pushed the mids back maybe an inch but i gave that some thought too.
I didn't want to undersized the front enclosures.
I wanted to align it vertically with the tweeter. Not for time purposes but to try to use the dash to limit any major nulls from step losses near the xover frequency
It needed to be near the front edge so i can test baffle effectiveness on that driver later. (Phase 3 idea)
.
I'm not a fan of the big pods either. Don't think I'd have ever done this in a customers car if they'd asked me. It was a challenge to secure it and maintain airbags. The obstruction is really only the drivers side and not as bad as i thought. I'm waiting to be pulled over and questioned about it. That didn't happen, even with the yellow waveguides installed for a month or so.

I'm already giving done thought to more practical applications.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

hella356 said:


> Wait, are you saying this is doubling up as a research project towards your daughter's degree? I'm already loving the inventive approach AND that your wife urged you to put in a system.


(I’m playing catch up on this thread) Very impressive project that Bill’s daughter took on - she is super smart! And very awesome to have a supportive wife! It was fantastic to meet both of them at SVR. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Thanks Jason. My kids are amazing and jeanette loosened the purse strings and pushed me to do it. I just drive them around and sand stuff mostly. 
Now i just have to get motivated to complete it. Taking it apart to run wiring and apply sound deadening does not appeal to me if its hot out or a race is on or i have anywhere else to be.


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## Zapcocrx (6 mo ago)

I was part of the sounds impossible IASCA comp team back in the late 90 early 2000. Reconnected with Bill recently and just got a chance to listen to his car right after he got back from SVR. I was completely blown away by the realism, and the soundstage I heard in this car. The layers of music that I heard was unreal unlike anything I have heard before. It’s what most strive for when building a system. The kicker for me was when Bill said to me roll the windows down and then take a listen. You would have thought that everything would change but in reality nothing changed. His sound stage was dead on with or without the windows being up or down. Very impressive vehicle for sure. Nice work my friend. Can’t wait to see what’s next!


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Hey Chris it was good to see you and Mark. Nothing against my mother in law but you live pretty close to her and she wants to see the grandkids more than me so visiting you was a win-win. Well except for seeing a really good car I'd built in 1000 pieces. But I'm sure you'll get it done right, you did some of the install in my Legend. 

Appreciate the feedback, you know my approach. I'll visit next time I'm down that way, maybe with some power or to take your amps and get some.


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## crxboy (Jan 26, 2020)

Bill always great to connect again and yes I am very interested in hearing your car after you add more power. Like I said the last time we spoke my base line was my Neon that was what I had in my head until I heard your car. Now my expectations for my build really has changed I hope for the better!


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## GlockandRoll (Oct 2, 2009)

Nice project, can't wait to see the finished pics!


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Seeing Chris' post really makes me think about the power question. His user name says Zapco. Almost every car we built was with Zapco. Great reliable amp from a great company. They would rebias amps, extrude custom sinks and custom color when that attention to detail mattered. 
They don't seem the same company and it really doesn't look like that industry anymore. SVR in 2004 filled the entire arena and many manufacturers were there in person. This year was less attended and it was mostly sponsors by proxy. Larry deserves a lot of credit for keeping it going for us. 

There are plenty of good amplifiers out there, I've tuned cars with the exotic to the entry level without finding serious problems. 
I've got low power D amps and the car sounds good. The install gives a ton of high freq gain and is -15db with 40w across the board. I also have an AS200.4 and AS300.2
Could send tweeters more power while closing the efficiency gap by running 200x2 to them and 2 ohm mono to sub. Then 300w to the mids.

I could also bridge the 4ch to the mids and the 2ch to the sub leaving the tweeters on the Harmony.

I could scrap that and do something entirely different. Being out of the competition scene for so long is there a brand that provides the support that i had before? Is there a better fit or something that would add another dimension to this build? I'm not looking for "sponsorship" or to be on a team so I don't have heavy obligations but would be happy to help out when I'm there.
I have a 130A alternator (not installed yet) I bought before i installed the Harmony. 4awg is ran but not a big deal to upgrade since i have to pull the car apart to do sound deadening anyway.

What say the experts?


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Impossible Bill said:


> Seeing Chris' post really makes me think about the power question. His user name says Zapco. Almost every car we built was with Zapco. Great reliable amp from a great company. They would rebias amps, extrude custom sinks and custom color when that attention to detail mattered.
> They don't seem the same company and it really doesn't look like that industry anymore. SVR in 2004 filled the entire arena and many manufacturers were there in person. This year was less attended and it was mostly sponsors by proxy. Larry deserves a lot of credit for keeping it going for us.
> 
> There are plenty of good amplifiers out there, I've tuned cars with the exotic to the entry level without finding serious problems.
> ...


Maybe Tru?


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Impossible Bill said:


> Seeing Chris' post really makes me think about the power question. His user name says Zapco. Almost every car we built was with Zapco. Great reliable amp from a great company. They would rebias amps, extrude custom sinks and custom color when that attention to detail mattered.
> They don't seem the same company and it really doesn't look like that industry anymore. SVR in 2004 filled the entire arena and many manufacturers were there in person. This year was less attended and it was mostly sponsors by proxy. Larry deserves a lot of credit for keeping it going for us.
> 
> There are plenty of good amplifiers out there, I've tuned cars with the exotic to the entry level without finding serious problems.
> ...


Personally, I like the idea with the Mosconi amps you have. I like the idea of putting the 200.4 on the tweets and sub and the 300.2 on the mid bass. If you can physically get those amps in the car, that would provide plenty of clean power with low noise floor. I had the Class A, 200.4, and Zero3 in my BRZ and really enjoyed them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Awesome build! Super impressed with what you've come up with.
The AP solution of the midbass is fantastic. I hear they can be very hard to get right, but it seems to be working quite well! But why is it that you went for the AP over full IB, or venting into sill for IB?


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Thanks, IB alignment isn't really optimal for my speakers. I've used it often on subs, my Evo has an Illusion ND15 and my Legend had a pair of IDMax 12's IB.
I was really more concerned with how the mids performed at thier upper limit. They have to blend with a very accurate and articulate tweeter. The ability to tune an AP setup seemed the best option. 
The only real downside is they have lower efficiency and AP typically reduces that. A bigger issue when you make the tweeter even more efficient. That is mitigated to an extent by AP tuning also though. By flattening the impedance spike i gain a lot of efficiency in the lower octave. I really need to add power to take full advantage of that though.

If only there was a staggered 4ch amp available with 5w x 2 and 500w x 2.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

bertholomey said:


> Personally, I like the idea with the Mosconi amps you have. I like the idea of putting the 200.4 on the tweets and sub and the 300.2 on the mid bass. If you can physically get those amps in the car, that would provide plenty of clean power with low noise floor.


Fitting them is certainly possible, or do I do it when its impossible? I forget our old tag line. I have ideas but the thought of all that work and then changing it isn't appealing. Every other aspect was clear cut in my mind and I just had to figure it out and implement it. I will most likely start laying it out this weekend. On the plus side if I get these surfboards to fit anything else should be cake. 
I think I'll also have to deal with differential output from the MiniDSP to the Mosconi single ended inputs. 

I also sttill have Zapco Simbilink transmitters and cables laying around and was offered some C2K amps.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> But why is it that you went for the AP over full IB, or venting into sill for IB?


I also gave some consideration to simply tying the kick and sill together to be a single enclosure and installing passive radiator(s). 

In the end I decided it would be more time, cost, with less tuning potential and only benefit the bottom side of the speakers frequency response.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I'm going to install the Mosconi's. Made a cardboard template to figure out where and how. 2 of these will take up some real estate.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

^LOL. A picture (and cardboard mockup) is worth a 1,000 words, haha!

Well, they are good amps, and you already have them, so why not?  I'm just not sure about that "NewTech" designation for those particular amps.  


I've been hoping to see more systems using the _*Eton Core A2*_ amps just to get some real world feedback on their performance. They only have the 2-channel, so for your system maybe:

One on the BlieSMa tweeters.
One Each Bridged on the PTT6.5's

But I'm not sure of the VC configuration on your subwoofer, so?

The only person I know of that's using them Stateside in a comp car is Natan Budiono where they are powering the newer JBL Arena X beryllium components and 12" subwooofer...




























Specs and info:









Amplifiers | ETON







www.eton-gmbh.com





.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I like the idea of mono amps per driver. I've got 4ohm dual coils so not ideal power wise. 

A friend let me know he doesn't think that's a real Mosconi box. It's just my go to visual aid. I think I was into recycling before AOC was born.


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## mark620 (Dec 8, 2010)

A real installer would be able to fit them under the front seats! I know someone with good floor cutting skills.....HAHA


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Funny! I used to know a real installer. They might have fit under the bench seat of his old F150 or could probably replace the tailgate. My next mock up will say *F O R D*


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Worked on some boring stuff today. Got the under hood wiring done except for the alternator wire. I'll do that when i install the larger alternator. I kept the factory fusible link box and even my little 3cyl with an 85A alternator is fused at 175A so i can reuse that too.









Pulled the battery and airbox and put a waterproof grommet near the center of the car where I'll run straight back.








Upgraded the chassis to motor ground









Found these battery terminals on Amazon. Not flimsy aluminum and take direct wire or ring terminals. There was 1 OEM wire directly to the battery terminal so i connected the same way.








Connected my 4 and 1/0awg wires and bolted the factory assembly on top. Ot took up 2 locations but i still have room to connect plenty of other wires if i add a winch or plow in the future








Factory cover still does most of the job, cannibalized an old boot to protect from shorting. Not elegant but effective.








There were 2 factory grounds at the battery. I upgraded the chassis side and reconnected the one that went underneath to the trans. I also added a third wire because I was there.

My power supply lead is also fused at the factory battery terminal since there was an unused location.

I usually did more creative work under the hood so I don't feel like its done. I might come back and revisit this and maybe dress up the engine bay to be the mini me of my Evo.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

This is the engine bay i'd like to match. Minus the turbo, displacement, transfer case, HP or torque. But this car does go twice as far on 3/4 as much fuel...


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## mark620 (Dec 8, 2010)

you don't drive that car why? 550 hp evo just sleeping !!! wtf


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Because its a 500hp Evo. 
Evo gets 12mpg, Mirage gets 40
Evo has 3" exhaust 2 wastegate dumps and BoV, Mirage sounds like a sewing machine
Evo is RS with 5sp so even louder on the highway.
Evo collector registration allows 2k miles per year.
Evo takes 8qts oil Mirage takes 3
Evo is irreplaceable, Mirage is disposable

Mirage sounds better 
Mirage has warranty
I'm old


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## mark620 (Dec 8, 2010)

Impossible Bill said:


> Because its a 500hp Evo.
> Evo gets 12mpg, Mirage gets 40
> Evo has 3" exhaust 2 wastegate dumps and BoV, Mirage sounds like a sewing machine
> Evo is RS with 5sp so even louder on the highway.
> ...


lol


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Started working on amp install. It's temporary but they are here collecting dust so why not.
I was lucky the back panel of my cheap car had a reim piece I could use as a template. Friday was recycle day so I had no pizza boxes.









All I had on hand was a scrap of 3/4" MDF. Based on the marks on it its probably from my sub box. That is some heavy stuff so I cut out what wasn't needed. 








I'll bolt this to the OEM supports to secure it. I have more interesting plans for the install of final amplifiers.









Offset the amps so I can route power wires for these behemoths and left some room. I'm going to put a AC Matrix Plus and need that and some SE RCA"s to finish cabling and install.









Some progress, hopefully can do some shopping next week.


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## mark620 (Dec 8, 2010)

your supposed to wear white glove with those special amps from ITALY...Fingerprints everywhere..SMH


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Those arent fingerprints. Something this big that gets hot has many uses. I powered it up and made some breakfast. Those marks are from the italian sausages.


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## hella356 (Dec 11, 2016)

In case your friend didn't believe you had a genuine Mosconi amp rack:


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Loving this thread!


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Impossible Bill said:


> Those arent fingerprints. Something this big that gets hot has many uses. I powered it up and made some breakfast. Those marks are from the italian sausages.
> View attachment 346160


Ha, I have the same Blackstone, use it when i go camping, very versatile...


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Got the Matrix today. Going away this weekend with the kids. I drag them to SVR so I can take them to a Cosplay event. At least their being musicians.
Hope to install next week, time and weather permitting. Driving down to visit parents again and would like to have these running before then.









Smoothie for breakfast so not as greasy.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

What does a matrix do?


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

It will do a couple of things in my case. My Harmony 8x12 has 5V differential pre-out and the "Blackstone" amps are single ended. The Matrix will convert the low level output. So I have twisted pair into it and coax out to the amp so I don't add noise to the system.

These amplifiers will give me much more power but still not ideal to close the efficiency gap. The Matrix will let me get that close in one place and fine tune with DSP levels. 

When I swap amps the available power should solve that and have differential input so I just unplug the Matrix inputs and move them to the amps. That's why I mounted it in the rear. Normally a line driver is as close to the source as possible.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)

Matrix Plus - AudioControl







www.audiocontrol.com


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Amps are installed but...

I have insane noise like I've never heard before. This is coming from a guy old enough to have installed powered graphic Eq's.

First thought is the amplifiers. They aren't new but both? I made cables and checked every conductor 3 times. MiniDSP was fine on its own. The Matrix is new but could also be the source.

Out of time today but will figure it out tomorrow. Thankfully I made it easy to reconnect the DSP's internal amp


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

use shorting plugs and work your way back from the amps to the source. you'll chase it down. then obviously power, and so on


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Yep, I've got plenty of RCA ends and cable to sort it out. Hopefully I can make some time tomorrow. Really want it working before taking a road trip this weekend


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Well the Matrix is the problem. I read the manual before buying it and installed it properly. It clearly says








Turns out the one I got was set in unbalanced mode. It was properly packaged with all paperwork so it didn't seem used and I doubt AC made that error.

I swapped it to Bal and I have sound! ...but there is still noise with a crackling on the right channel. My guess is this one was returned but never went through RMA and was put back on the shelf. 
Good news is I bought it from a local retailer and they will swap it out. Bad news is they don't have one to give me today.

I'm going to leave it and do some tuning anyway. I've got 16hrs of seat time coming up. Around 20hrs if we make a detour in Va.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

Glad you were able to stop by the meet Saturday, was great meeting you and your wife and getting a demo in the Mirage.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I’ll echo what Ian said - I was very much hoping you both would make it, but knew there was a good chance something might go awry. It was good getting a bit of an update on the girls from Jeannette as well. 

Thanks for the fantastic demo - for me, it was a very different experience from SVR - much more focused - which allowed me to enjoy the tonality of the system so much more. Of course, I think the power the Mosconi amps provide is a big contributor to the increased sound quality. Well done! I look forward to the next opportunity!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Ian,
I appreciate your hospitality, we wish we could have stayed more than a few hours. We actually took the long way home and drive through your neck of the woods again. We'll probably be planning a little getaway with the girls to Shenandoah soon.

I think I found a balance between my tuning style and Dirac that's working Jason. At SVR it was starting to annoy me so I put the keyboard away. The tuning guide and a deeper dive is letting me tune in a way I'm used to. I do miss the immediate response changes turning a pot.on an analog EQ gives but making progress. I have questions I'll run by you and Anu offline if that's cool that came up while tweaking on the ride home.

I'm pretty motivated to start building the next phase now that I have the most focused, best imaging 4 door clown car with the doors open. Time to take these concepts a little further. I appreciate the feedback you and Ian, Logan, Tom and Anu gave. I only wish I could have been around longer to listen to more cars and demo myself.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

Impossible Bill said:


> We actually took the long way home and drive through your neck of the woods again. We'll probably be planning a little getaway with the girls to Shenandoah soon.


That's great, if you need any suggestions on places to go when you are back in the area, feel free to reach out.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I will Ian, thanks!

I was able to empty the tools from the trunk so i could work on the bass side of things yesterday. I put most of the tools in the back seat on the ride home and focused more on tuning with drums. By the time I was on Interstate 81 Jeanette and I were really enjoying listening. 

The tuner part of me says to keep tweaking and get everything I can out of it. The builder part says push things further and find out what works best and why.

I've even had some exchanges with Stan at Bliesma and he really appreciated the engineering and execution of the tweeter baffles and what they provide. That only makes me want to extend the concept further. You don't find the point of diminishing return until you reach it. 
The next phase should easily exceed that point and hopefully add something useful.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

After adding some power I really got into a groove tuning the car and felt like the veil was being lifted. The focus and separation improved enough to make me believe the baffles have an impact.

So I decided to take things a step further. I had a quick little baffle above the mids already. That was mostly to avoid odd reflections at the lower edge of the dash in the crossover region. To be truly effective they need to be larger. 

I started with some cardboard templates to see if it's feasible.

















I found enough space on the outside in the door and on the floor. I decided t start working on the doors while I wait for some metal to arrive.
There is up to 7" inside the door from the outer edge of the door panel.









I trimmed a little metal and made a template to get the proper angle. 








I have to move the wire harness and navigate around the window track and of course the lower pocket will be sacrificed. I need to take more measurements now and determine whether I'll mold this to the panel in one piece or if it should be a separate insert.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Today is my daughter Jillian's 21st birthday but I got lots of presents.
A few sheets of optix and 1/4" aluminum plate and a pair of Purifi Al cone drivers.








I'll br busy celebrating this weekend and it looks like rain early next week from Ian (hurricane, not Naiku) but I can't wait to get this built and test this all out.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Impossible Bill said:


> Today is my daughter Jillian's 21st birthday but I got lots of presents.
> A few sheets of optix and 1/4" aluminum plate and a pair of Purifi Al cone drivers.
> View attachment 348878
> 
> I'll br busy celebrating this weekend and it looks like rain early next week from Ian (hurricane, not Naiku) but I can't wait to get this built and test this all out.


Awesome! Those are some great gifts!

Tell Jillian Happy Birthday! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Sam b said:


> Can you explain what an aperiodic enclosure is. Also, why you would be using that. Is it a port, or does it vent into a different area of the car


There are two methods of using, in a car we are generally in a tight space so we vent the back wave out of the vehicle or into a sealed off boot and use the ap to flatten the impedance curve a little and also raise the qts of low Q drivers

in a house or larger environment I have seen setups where the back wave is in the same space as the driver and so almost replaces the rear port of the speaker enclosure, can’t say I’ve played with any tbh


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I've made some progress on my doors. The metal work inside the door is finished, making a grill for the bottom on the door panel is next.

The cutout was enlarged so the ballschild be as large as possible with a perpendicular outer wall.









Next the pizza box made a template of the space.

















20ga sheet metal was used to match the OEM material. A bunch of bends, lots of trimming and some paint and its in place










The baffle portion was added as a separate piece to fit it into the car easier and make sure the door panel can come on and off. 









The perpendicular surfaces were covered in some acoustic foam for wavelengths longer than the baffle which is ~12" now.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Impossible Bill said:


> The cutout was enlarged so the ballschild be as large as possible with a perpendicular outer wall.



I'm loving the attention to details of this build ... and also the fact that you must eat a fair bit of pizza.  

That said, please explain what a "ballschild" is.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Ballschild is latin for "baffle could". Apparently my phone sometimes reverts to Latin when i swipe.
Pizza night is Friday, usually 2 large pies for us and whatever friends are over. Since recycling is every 2 weeks I usually have enough for any project. I'm out right now but will restock before the weekend. 👍


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

"Phone reverts to latin when I swipe"
Epic

Digging the metal fabbing and attention to detail. Looks good!


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Forddenial said:


> Digging the metal fabbing and attention to detail. Looks good!


Thanks. Took a while to make all the bends by hand. It was too complex to use a brake and needed a lot of tweaking to get the right fit. Now I have to make it pretty.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

Planishing hammers are amazing. Small ballpeen hammers will do the trick in a pinch if you use some fancy manuevers in your strike


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I have a bunch of scrap 1/4 and 3/8 plate lasting around so clamped it to guide the bends and finished with a ballpeen which surprisingly translates in latin to "baffle edge diffraction".


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Impossible Bill said:


> Ballschild is latin for "baffle could".


Good to know...honestly I was a little afraid to ask.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Made the grilles for the door panels. Bought aluminum perf and it was pretty expensive! $90 for a 4'x4' piece.









I shaped it so I could rivet and epoxy it to the door panel from behind. I textured and painted the whole door so I didn't have to worry about matching. Even the custom mixed SEM is a little off. 

























. 
I listened to a couple of tracks and my initial impression is it was worth the effort. 
An acoustic version of Tesla's Changes has a piano intro that spans the stage and I really felt like there was better articulation and a more natural decay of the individual notes. 
I also listened to Lewis Capaldi, Someone. you loved. This recording is a single mic, live performance. I again think i'm hearing a more natural reproduction of the piano and vocal. Them the moments where the audience reacted switches from that intimate setting to a large room with improved definition between the cheers and applause. 
I'll get some opinions on it from trusted ears a soon as I can and before I change anything else. What I think I'm hearing is definitely subtle but that's basically what these experiments are about. Are there things that can be done with the room that improve the listening experience that are difficult or impossible to achieve through tuning? At least now I can say I finally use a factory speaker location for something.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I made a bunch of progress on the floor this weekend or should I say we since the wife helped out a lot. I learned something very important. When your wife sees you doing so much work to try and improve sq she may day things like " Are you sure those are the best speakers you can use? It would be a shame to do all this work and not get the most or of it."

So we startedcutting out the floor where it was being dropped. Since the chassis is completely glued together I didn't want to cut any seams and wanted to attach to the chassis wherever I could so that guided the size of the opening.









I used an oscillating tool so there were no sparks. It cut easily with bi-metal blades









Then I bent more sheet metal to make the "box" that lowers the floor in front of the speaker by 3" and its perpendicular to the speaker angle. 3" is even with the bottom of the frame rail and not nearly there lowest point of the chassis.

















They were glued on all 4 sides to the sill, frame rail and floor. The existing floor was bentdown and used to double the thickness in the back of the new section. Seam sealer filed any gaps inside and out.

















They were painted inside and out and the bottom was lined with acoustic foam.









Now I can break out the pizza boxes and template the baffles. The size will be similar to what the door provides









Breaking in the Al cones now too.


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## pwnt by pat (Mar 13, 2006)

What's the benefit of this treatment to the floor and doors? To attempt to control early reflections?


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

The idea is similar to what the waveguides and plexi baffles do for the tweeters, provide controlled direct radiation. The more you can do that the more you'll avoid early reflections. I can't simply add a baffle to the mids in the kicks like I did on the tweeters so I'm moving the boundaries of the car where I can to accommodate a baffle wherever possible. 
So inside the doors and into the floor gives me the room for soundwaves at wavelenghts the mids play to directly radiate rather than only reflect.
I also opened it further to try to tame reflections of longer waves. ~12" to the center of the cone isn't bad in a tiny car.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

The weather's been great so I decided to have a pizza party before it gets too cold here to work outside. 
I made some cardboard templates to evaluate the concept. I'll transfer these to brown board to make sure they can be installed in one piece then work with the aluminum.









Initial impressions are that it's just silly. It should not be this noticeably better with drivers that aren't broken in and a tune for the previous speakers. i didn't think the benefit would be as noticeable as it was with the tweeters. 
I need to get the people that have listened to the car along the way to verify what I believe I'm hearing. The best way to describe it is I'm not hearing 2 guitars, I'm hearing 4 hands playing 2 guitars. 

I think I might have to look into converting to hand drive. I can ride a motorcycle so I'm sure learning won't be hard.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I worked on the grilles to cover where I dropped the floor below the speakers. The floor of this econobox now has fine Corinthian leather from our old couch. I get speakers, wife gets furniture. Great deal, especially if your the one that got resin on the old one.

















Jillian is at school and will machine some of the parts i want to finish the baffles this week. By the time I get them the speakers should be pretty broken in and I'll retune. Then on to the next phase.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Impossible Bill said:


> I worked on the grilles to cover where I dropped the floor below the speakers. The floor of this econobox now has fine Corinthian leather from our old couch. I get speakers, wife gets furniture. Great deal, especially if your the one that got resin on the old one.
> View attachment 353143
> 
> View attachment 353144
> ...


I just LOVE the family oriented aspect of this build - everyone giving of their talents and their efforts. The ‘Best Dad’ shirts were fantastic as well at SVR  it is a rare thing to see the family involved in the hobby, and it is very refreshing to see - along with your innovative approach to this build - fun thread!!! And…..I get the added benefit of occasionally hearing the fruits of your labor 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

It takes a village. We do t-shirts for everything. When Jillian was a high school wrestler we all wore "Pinderella" shirts. Cinderella on the front and "Bippity Bippity Bamm" on the back.
We're heading back to Raleigh next week. Not sure if the Mirage is making the trip but if it does I'd love to get some feedback if anyone is in the area and interested.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Impossible Bill said:


> It takes a village. We do t-shirts for everything. When Jillian was a high school wrestler we all wore "Pinderella" shirts. Cinderella on the front and "Bippity Bippity Bamm" on the back.
> We're heading back to Raleigh next week. Not sure if the Mirage is making the trip but if it does I'd love to get some feedback if anyone is in the area and interested.


I’m not traveling this week, so ping me via text the day before to see if I can make it over. 

(Very cool that Jillian was a wrestler……hard to believe my respect for her could be even greater )


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Zapcocrx (6 mo ago)

So since I have re-connected with Bill I have learned to appreciate the beauty of an amazing sounding car. I have listened to Bills car in stages. Back in June when he was just getting the car ready for SVR and I know for a fact that the car was not 100 percent ready for that show but was impressive. Then probably about 2 months after SVR Bill had changed amps and added much more power and a re-tune. He came to my house and we spent over three hours in my drive just listening to tracks that I have heard thousands of times and I heard something new in each one of the tracks we listened to. I did not want to get out I just wanted to keep listening. Then Bill said he wanted to change up his midbass drivers because of some new install ideas he had. My first thought was my god why would he want to change what is an already truly amazing sounding car? We talked in lengths about his theories of limiting reflections of sound waves and the effect it can have on the soundstage I still was very nervous about changing what was already amazing and it wasn’t even my own car. Well I just listened to the car again yesterday and I was absolutely blown away with what he had done and how it sounded with just changing equipment and his theories. No tuning at all at this point. Sound stage was deep, realistic, focused, centered and real. No matter what I did opening the door or just simply turning my head different directions it was like the sound I was listening to was glued in place. If you would have gotten into the car the first thing you would think is that there has to be a center channel in the dash that’s how focused it was. I have listened to some pretty impressive cars in my days of car audio but this build has truly taken my thoughts to the next level. I am just hoping that I can get my own build somewhere class to what I have heard in Bills car. With his help I am pretty sure I can. Great job Bill. I can’t wait to see what’s next!!!!


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Zapcocrx said:


> So since I have re-connected with Bill I have learned to appreciate the beauty of an amazing sounding car. I have listened to Bills car in stages. Back in June when he was just getting the car ready for SVR and I know for a fact that the car was not 100 percent ready for that show but was impressive. Then probably about 2 months after SVR Bill had changed amps and added much more power and a re-tune. He came to my house and we spent over three hours in my drive just listening to tracks that I have heard thousands of times and I heard something new in each one of the tracks we listened to. I did not want to get out I just wanted to keep listening. Then Bill said he wanted to change up his midbass drivers because of some new install ideas he had. My first thought was my god why would he want to change what is an already truly amazing sounding car? We talked in lengths about his theories of limiting reflections of sound waves and the effect it can have on the soundstage I still was very nervous about changing what was already amazing and it wasn’t even my own car. Well I just listened to the car again yesterday and I was absolutely blown away with what he had done and how it sounded with just changing equipment and his theories. No tuning at all at this point. Sound stage was deep, realistic, focused, centered and real. No matter what I did opening the door or just simply turning my head different directions it was like the sound I was listening to was glued in place. If you would have gotten into the car the first thing you would think is that there has to be a center channel in the dash that’s how focused it was. I have listened to some pretty impressive cars in my days of car audio but this build has truly taken my thoughts to the next level. I am just hoping that I can get my own build somewhere class to what I have heard in Bills car. With his help I am pretty sure I can. Great job Bill. I can’t wait to see what’s next!!!!


Thanks for your impressions of Bill's system. I can only imagine how good it sounds considering the drivers he is using combined with some of the techniques that he is using in this install that 99% of us are not willing to implement in our own daily drivers.

And yeah, a wide, focused, linear L-to-R soundstage and decent Depth-TO-Stage are relatively easy. But if you want a truly DEEP Soundstage with excellent holographic 3D LAYERING from front to back and in between, as well as differentation in imaging Height, the more you can increase the ratio of the Direct sound vs Reflected sound, while also maintaining smooth and wide directivity, the better the chances are. Much easier to accomplish in home audio due to easier directivity matching between drivers on a common baffle, combined with the relative level, distance, and time window of the reflections, and being able to easily control them.

Would love an opportunity to hear this monster! Thanks for sharing your inspirational journey, Bill. 

Nice way to recycle some materials from your home to the car as well.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

bbfoto said:


> Thanks for sharing your inspirational journey, Bill.
> 
> Nice way to recycle some materials from your home to the car as well.


Thanks. I'm always looking for solutions in nature and trying to make use of materials laying around. The floor grilles are made from beige T-111 I found that was the right thickness. I figure it's outdoor rated in case the floor enclosures leak...
Not having a shop sort of pushes you too get creative with materials.

In terms of equipment and install techniques being too far in a daily driver i have to disagree a little. My car I'd a daily driver (30k miles in 14m) was built in the driveway and the car or system didn't spend a single day out of commission during this install.

My equipment budget is probably less than many in the DIY community. I did focus most of that in front speakers. That was a philosophy is always had; spend all you can afford on front speakers, no rears, center unless the budget allows ( we called then checkbook babies) and put them in the best location. Kickpanels were the obvious choice, especially with 2 seat judging. Speakers are the biggest source of distortion so quality speakers, best location and using them within their limits is 80% of the battle.

Where I've gone with that now is trying to remove some of the problems created by the car itself that negatively impact the performance of the speaker. I honestly expected it to be extreme effort for minimal gain. But I've yet to hit the point of diminishing return; in fact the return has been well worth the install effort. No Hi-res streaming, cheapest wire in could find, minimal sound treatment so I can determine the return anything I do really provides and put my budget where it does the most good. Not to start internet debate, but to learn.

I hope pizza boxes are being chopped up. Hopefully speaker locations are being thought about in terms of what Is best rather than what is best in the hole I've got. I hope people are thinking about what I'm doing might benefit their system design. I have my own ideas on improving a 3way pillar design based on what I've learned and I'm sure other smart people here have too. 

This may be extreme to some but I'll scale these concepts in other systems. I'll share results and an confident it will improve performance. In also have to admit tuning is more fun when you feel like you have less of it to do.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I had the opportunity to listen to the Mirage tonight. Thank you for coming 'over' to allow me to get a great demo of the car with the recent adjustments. It improves by leaps and bounds every time I hear it! It is so incredible to hear what I'm seeing......to hear the results of the baffle designs.......to 'get' what I'm reading in this thread. 

Wonderful pinpoint imaging - especially the center image - phenomenal depth, and very balanced throughout the frequency range. I've never been any good at explaining what I'm hearing.......but extremely enjoyable. It was really fun listening to a very wide range of tracks - getting all the details out of the finesse tracks, and letting the fun tracks rip. I'm really looking forward to the next opporutnity when you have had the chance to re-tune since changing out the woofers. It was great to see you and Jeanette and to enjoy a wonderful dinner. I hope you have a great trip back to Jersey!


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Great to see you Jason. You're car sounds excellent and anyone would be happy to have it...but you have the disease. Is easy to focus on what you might not have instead of what's already there. It may sound incredible but can it be closer to phenomenal? The chase is on! 
I'm going to think about it and send you something to try when I get home. No babies will be eaten in promise.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Its freakin cold outside but I was able to make decent looking baffles. I'll make new kicks with them integrated in the spring. 
Speakers are broken in and there is a real improvement. Mids are clearly louder so I get some valuable headroom where it was lacking. I think midrange is too. I haven't made any tuning changes but it's still better than before. Having baffled both in think I like the Al cone version better.

















I'll do a bit of tuning and proper Dirac measurements finally add son as I can get in a heated garage.
Next phase will be a fun winter project.


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

Looking great! I'm loving all the work, updates, and use of existing materials in the build.



Impossible Bill said:


> I can get in a heated garage


I hear you on that one...I'm slowly trying to get some heat in mine, have the wood stove set up, but with no insulation currently, the heat just goes up and out the roof vents.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Is warmth and quiet too much to ask for as a car audio enthusiast? 
Its hard to make all those Dirac measurements when you live on a busy street. You see the headlights coming and watch the response jump on the Dirac interface and know it's a retry. 
Your garage is nice and isolated at least Ian. In NJ when you find a quiet place like that you have to be afraid it's where the soprano's dump the bodies.🔪


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I got access to a garage.









So I was able to do some decent Dirac measurements. Since I hadn't done any since SVR I was curious to see what it did.
2 things jumped out at me.

The baffles on the mids really increased the mid output. Almost 5db on average, the switch to the Al cone might also contribute a bit.

The work I did to range reflections seemed to really do something. When I look at the frequency spread of all the measurements now vs then there is quite a difference. Far less deviation now.

My first impression listening was wow. I heard a few little deficiencies before but it's beyond fixing them. The stage good wider, instruments aren't just in their place and natural, they are present. I have some tweaking to do of course but there is a noticeable change. I'm convinced Dirac can clean up the rough edges and giving it less work to do seems to have made it perform better. It may have taken 6 months of fighting how to really fine tune with it but I went from sort of hating it to liking it in that time


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Impossible Bill said:


> I got access to a garage.
> View attachment 355720
> 
> 
> ...


Wry good info Bill - glad you were able to get it in a spot that you could take good measurements (warmly ). Very encouraging and informative that the pre-work makes Dirac that much better. I’m looking forward to addressing mine again in this fashion. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

bertholomey said:


> Wry good info Bill - glad you were able to get it in a spot that you could take good measurements (warmly ). Very encouraging and informative that the pre-work makes Dirac that much better. I’m looking forward to addressing mine again in this fashion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


All I had to do was bake a cake. When you heard it I thought I made progress and it was 90% of what I'd be able to get from it. The 80/20 rule applies so the first 80% isn't too hard. The last 20% can be elusive and you might not get all of it. So 90% was a place I was really happy with.
I'm really surprised at the result, it seems like I've hit 95% overnight. What could take weeks or months or never was there. I only spent 90 minutes after tweaking. You said when you tried my little experiment it was like there had been a towel over the mic before. I can say the same thing now too.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Firstly, awesome build. Have had a ball watching the lengths you are going to here to solve problems that many may see as irrelevant now that a DSP is involved. 
I would love the chance to see and hear it next time I take a trip to see the family!
Now that you've built a legitimate baffle for both the tweeters and the midrange, I'm curious to which one you found to be the most transformative of the system. I'm Supposing the midrange since those wavelengths are what the ear is most sensitive to and also similar lengths to the new baffle that you've worked on.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Thanks. I'd say the tweeters had more of an overall impact. Technically the tweeter baffles were better at covering their bandwidth fully. They also have the benefit of eliminating a bunch of destructive reflections.
The effect of work in the doors and floor was noticeable and placing the baffles just amplified that effect on the mids. They now blend with the tweeters better. The area they are giving extra focus to can be hard to dial in. 
I wouldn't want to get rid of either. My mindset is a DSP is a great big band-aid. Car audio by nature is a gaping wound. If you minimize the severity of the wound it needs less attention. This really is an experiment to limit the bandaging needed. I tried to get it down to shaving with an old razor without resorting to a custom dash or seating positions. Lots of little strategically placed band-aids are still needed. I wanted to let the music play so anything can sound good and in its natural tone. 
I'm not saying acoustic problems should be solved acoustically or can't be solved electronically at all. But if there's less problems to tackle electronically they can be easier to find and maybe solve. DSP's rock when they've been used properly. They can absolutely make a system massively better, and easily make one worse too. I still have more planned to try to make this one better


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I got my "new" amps today. The Mosconi's sound really good but I've been planning to go a different route and see what the latest technology has to offer. 
It will start with these Notsconi amps. 









My little car will be happier with greater efficiency and everything I've read says really good amps are rated in the K's 😜


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Impossible Bill said:


> I got my "new" amps today. The Mosconi's sound really good but I've been planning to go a different route and see what the latest technology has to offer.
> It will start with these Notsconi amps.
> View attachment 360327
> 
> ...


Holy cow, I had to quadruple take at that box. I thought it was a prank zero 1.
Why this amp? Just out of curiosity?


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

The size and appearance. I'll gut one to build another amp out of it. Probably will put one on my sub temporarily to see what it does. At least I'll have a spare board if it releases the magic smoke.
I'm getting 940w I think to the sub now which is plenty of headroom. I think these can do similar at 2ohms. 
I will not be switching to Boss Audio components.


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## mark620 (Dec 8, 2010)

Craziness going on here......Mad scientist type stuff going on ,If only they knew............


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Power supplies came today too. 









+/-40v, 20A should comfortably support 500w each.


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## BP1Fanatic (Jan 10, 2010)




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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

Impossible Bill said:


> The size and appearance. I'll gut one to build another amp out of it. Probably will put one on my sub temporarily to see what it does. At least I'll have a spare board if it releases the magic smoke.
> I'm getting 940w I think to the sub now which is plenty of headroom. I think these can do similar at 2ohms.
> I will not be switching to Boss Audio components.




I commented once that if I won the powerball I would build a pair of boring sedans, one with high end gear hidden and well tuned, but with low end junk visible, then a high end visible system with hidden low end junk playing just to see how many people wouldn't be able to hear reality versus what they saw.

Looking forward to your build, this is going to be awesome.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

Focused4door said:


> I commented once that if I won the powerball I would build a pair of boring sedans, one with high end gear hidden and well tuned, but with low end junk visible, then a high end visible system with hidden low end junk playing just to see how many people wouldn't be able to hear reality versus what they saw.
> 
> Looking forward to your build, this is going to be awesome.


Thanks. Its starting to exceed my expectations and I'm having fun doing some things I'd always wondered about. I feel like the rust has been kicked off and I'm getting into a groove. I guess I'm doing a little of both in the most boring sedan possible. My high end gear is sort of in your face and hard to miss. Some low end gear will be put to use and some high end gear will be hidden in low end gear.


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## nyquistrate (Apr 17, 2011)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Holy cow, I had to quadruple take at that box. I thought it was a prank zero 1.
> Why this amp? Just out of curiosity?


I STILL think it's a prank but I love the "Notsconi" name. LOL.


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