# Crtical mass is a ripoff



## Richv72

Heres the picture of my ul-a2500v2 guts









Now heres a picture of soundmagus1800w guts








Now unless they have all different quality part inside this in my mind is a complete ripoff and ill be calling them on it. The sound magus amp cost less then 300 bucks.


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## KSpan

Unless the product's performance was misrepresented, rebranding isn't a technically a ripoff... Just sneaky. Caveat emptor, but that's what is great about the power of the internet - being able to track it via sites and posts like this.


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## nick650

Above has bigger teroids and why buy this nasty brand?


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## Richv72

nick650 said:


> Above has bigger teroids and why buy this nasty brand?


I bought it because it had really good specs, or so i thought.


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## extremeways

Guuoood! that amp list for 5800 dollars..


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## tyroneshoes

I paid $250 for the 6x9 coaxials 

then I sold them for $250

and I also had a CM shallow 12" sub


all hype


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## TrickyRicky

Thank you for posting it. I always had my doubts about Critical Mass, especially their advertising. They claim this and that but nothing to back it up, except for celebrities and god knows they lie for a quick buck.

Its a complete rip off, and I bet their made in the same factory as those magus. This isn't the first time boards/designs are shared, even from the cheapest to the most hyped-expensive amps.


Am glad you found out about them...the hard way but you learned. It would of being worse if you had kept buying CM stating their the bomb.



HELL they even share the same QC sticker, lol.


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## TrickyRicky

Richv72 said:


> I bought it because it had really good specs, or so i thought.


Most of the time (if not all the time) the specs are exaggerated and meaningless.


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## Richv72

TrickyRicky said:


> Thank you for posting it. I always had my doubts about Critical Mass, especially their advertising. They claim this and that but nothing to back it up, except for celebrities and god knows they lie for a quick buck.
> 
> Its a complete rip off, and I bet their made in the same factory as those magus. This isn't the first time boards/designs are shared, even from the cheapest to the most hyped-expensive amps.
> 
> 
> Am glad you found out about them...the hard way but you learned. It would of being worse if you had kept buying CM stating their the bomb.
> 
> 
> 
> HELL they even share the same QC sticker, lol.


Yeah I just posted this because there is so little info on anything having to do with this company i figured it would help someone not make the same mistake i did. If i had seen this before I bought them, I would have bought something else. I posted this on pretty much all the forums also, because I want people to see this.


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## mires

Looks just like a Massive Audio NX4 also. So what did you pay for it?


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## Richv72

I bought 2 of them, 1 was 860 the other 900.


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## Lars Ulriched

subscribed


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## IDGAF

OP, do you mind if I use these pics elsewhere?


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## TrickyRicky

Here a link on ebay for the Critical Mass on ebay. Look at their advertising, they spent the whole time bragging about their SQ by using celebrities that don't know **** about SQ and NO proof of quality inside (hi-grade components??). Even if it did have hi-grade component that the clone....it still doesnt make it a 5799.00, a 2899.00, a 1500.00 or even a 800.00 amp for that reason.


OP can you please remove one of those bars that cover up the transistors. I would like to know which output transistors it uses and what brand of capacitors. Take more hi-resolution pics from different angles. I won't be surprise if their low-end components in a "claimed" hi-end audiophile amp.

I wont be surprise if their components speakers are being made by the same factory as Audiobahn or Shockwave, lol.



This reminds me of the vid I posted on one of my threads called........AUDIOPHOOLERY... look at the last few minutes of the vid and DAVE is absolutely correct.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

KSpan said:


> Unless the product's performance was misrepresented, rebranding isn't a technically a ripoff... Just sneaky. Caveat emptor, but that's what is great about the power of the internet - being able to track it via sites and posts like this.


This... 




Richv72 said:


> I bought it because it had really good specs, or so i thought.


 
How do you know it doesn't have really good specs? 




TrickyRicky said:


> Thank you for posting it. I always had my doubts about Critical Mass, especially their advertising. They claim this and that but nothing to back it up, except for celebrities and god knows they lie for a quick buck.
> 
> *Its a complete rip off, and I bet their made in the same factory as those magus.* This isn't the first time boards/designs are shared, even from the cheapest to the most hyped-expensive amps.
> 
> 
> Am glad you found out about them...the hard way but you learned. It would of being worse if you had kept buying CM stating their the bomb.
> 
> 
> 
> HELL they even share the same QC sticker, lol.


You love stirring up **** don't you? 

How about the Arc/Vibe amps fiasko... not the same difference? 

How many CM products have you owed? How many have you put your hands on? 

I bet you've owned or considered the Vibes though... 

I'm hearing blah blah blah blah, but do you actually have ANY bassis for what you say? 

I'm failing to see what ANY of that had to do with anything, besides fueling some sort of fire, you provide no fact, nothing but opinion, and one based on "what you herd" 




Richv72 said:


> Yeah I just posted this because there is so little info on anything having to do with this company i figured it would help someone not make the same mistake i did. If i had seen this before I bought them, I would have bought something else. I posted this on pretty much all the forums also, because I want people to see this.


 
Wanted people to see what?? The mistake of not doing your homework... 

Well, in this day and age it's kinda inexcuseable... 

I'm not trying to defend anything but the facts here (although I have owned a CM product)... And the fact is you didn't do enough homework and now, because it's guts look like that of some other amps guts (likely almost identical) you feel taken... 

I ask, is it Critical Mass's fault, or yours?

Was it Arc Audios fault if people bought thier amps, instead of the Vibes?

EDIT: that thing that companies do to sell products, marketing, you went with the one that does the least/worst of the bunch... Retardedly expensive "MSRP" to tanalize the weary web-surfer looking for something "different" 

Keep it mysterious, don't put anything out there but "celebs" touting your product... and well, fish bite on all sorts of things...


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

Oh and Ricky, before you start seeing red and writing out an awesome reply, read ALL of my words, ask yourself if you do not agree first, please, thank you...


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## TrickyRicky

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> Oh and Ricky, before you start seeing red and writing out an awesome reply, read ALL of my words, ask yourself if you do not agree first, please, thank you...


Your intitle to your own opinion just like I am with mine. If you dont like what I write or wrote......then dont read it. 

As for me owning or buying in the future a CM product.....that will never ever happen. The only way I would ever even touch or test those CM amps is if I get it for free or a trial...THATS IT.



But I guess your saying its perfectly okay for companies to claim and state that their amps are "hi-fi, top of the line" and then they actually use/share the same boards as "Audiobahn,Pyle,Pyramid,Boss". But you say its the buyers/consumers fault....really for being misleaded? Call me crazy or coo coo, but I see you dont agree with what I state and as you can clearly see I dont agree with what you stated.


Yeah the buyer should of done his homework...but at the same time CM should state clearly "Same board as....such and such" but I bet your not going to agree with that because no company will ever admit to using someone elses design/board.


This isn't the first time nor the last time a company will do such a thing. They've been doing that since electronics where invented, stealing other peoples designs and ideas.


I have nothing against you, but I see you dont like what I write....so if it makes you feel better.... am sorry for whatever.



Oh what CM product did you buy....care to give us your opinion on it? Lets just hope it wasn't one of those amps, lol.


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## TrickyRicky

TrickyRicky said:


> *OP can you please remove one of those bars that cover up the transistors. I would like to know which output transistors it uses and what brand of capacitors. Take more hi-resolution pics from different angles.* I won't be surprise if their low-end components in a "claimed" hi-end audiophile amp.
> 
> I wont be surprise if their components speakers are being made by the same factory as Audiobahn or Shockwave, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> This reminds me of the vid I posted on one of my threads called........AUDIOPHOOLERY... look at the last few minutes of the vid and DAVE is absolutely correct.


I did ask to see closer pics of the transistors, caps, op amps, pots, ect. To see if they actually use hi-end components or cheapy china components. But I guess that doesn't count right? Let me just go and ask CM for more details and see what answer they give me...good idea I'll ask and post exactly what they write back.




Oh have anyone seeing CM's website, especially the store. They have HU that are some brand I've never heard (but they SURE DO LOOK like cheap fleamarket crap) but they want 3k for a double din that the brand is "ICON"??? Anyone ever heard of this brand?. This website reminds me of "AC SHOCKWAVE's" and that other funny website were they sell "SPL GAS" and the 200k subwoofer that destroys houses, lol. I bet your going to get a kick out of this one...Aaron.


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## CrossFired

Thats pretty underhanded on there part! Looks like they may do it on other models as well?

Soundmagus





Richv72 said:


> Heres the picture of my ul-a2500v2 guts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now heres a picture of soundmagus1800w guts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now unless they have all different quality part inside this in my mind is a complete ripoff and ill be calling them on it. The sound magus amp cost less then 300 bucks.


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## Richv72

Yep all the models look just like their counterparts.


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## [email protected]

Looks like it all comes out of the same factory as powerbass


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## TrickyRicky

BeatsDownLow said:


> Looks like it all comes out of the same factory as powerbass


Yeah but dont let Aaron read your post, otherwise he'll attack you like he did me, lol. 



I would rather buy 10 of those soundmagus @ 240.00 (total 2400.00) than buying the same board and amp design for 5799.00 (or even 800.00 like the OP) FOR 1.


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## tyroneshoes

Obviously its not worth what theyre asking, but there does seem to be different components used in the CM.

Probably just asked sound magnus to use their better components.

Same as the arc/vibe/krypt/ubuy except no one in that pool is jacking up the price of amps into the thousands.


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## TrickyRicky

tyroneshoes said:


> Obviously its not worth what theyre asking, but there does seem to be different components used in the CM.
> 
> Probably just asked sound magnus to use their better components.
> 
> Same as the arc/vibe/krypt/ubuy except no one in that pool is jacking up the price of amps into the thousands.


Completely true, the transormers on the CM are bigger ( but not 5,000.00 bigger). Then I ask to see what components they use inside the CM's.

Let pretend that they do infact use higher end components than the 250.00 amp, I doubt they would come to 4grand in parts, there is no way in hell that would happen. Unless you have the pope of rome hand winding those transformers and giving them his powerful blessings. He may also add holy water on them for more power....but I guess we'll never know.




I did send an email to the CM's store contact, I ask to know who are these "Audiophiles" that helped design their amps. To know what components they use. I doubt I'll get a response but if I do....I'll make sure to post it HERE SO Aaron can read it.


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## tyroneshoes

Toss this one in the list

NEW American Bass PH2500 Class D Phantom Micro AMP Mini 2500 Watt PEAK | eBay


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## thomasluke

Just for fun check out the heat sinks compared to a ssl.
Soundmagus X3500 3500W RMS Class-D MONO BASS Amplifier
SOUND STORM | everything else is just noise


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## Sleeves

tyroneshoes said:


> Toss this one in the list
> 
> NEW American Bass PH2500 Class D Phantom Micro AMP Mini 2500 Watt PEAK | eBay


The next size up is the comparable one:

American Bass PH-4000 MD









The there is the Massive N4 that we already have pics of on the site:









Also, a test of the actual power output of one of these models (AB PH-4000 MD):
American Bass PH-4000 MD Test | Facebook

Besides different colored circuit boards, I'm very interested to know what types of part differentiate these amplifiers.


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## TrickyRicky

Hell why not all just share the design of the small footprint board? Now American Bass, CM, Soundmagus, SoundStorm are sharing the same board/desing. But I bet one of them is selling it cheaper than the other...lol. I for one will go with the cheapest.


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## Richv72

IDGAF said:


> OP, do you mind if I use these pics elsewhere?


Sure man its fine


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## Richv72

Its more like all of them cost 250 bucks except the cm which is 600 more. Almost like if you takes the coils off the american bass and throw it on the sound magus board you have a cm.


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## perfecxionx

googled the model number and the first link that showed up:
critical mass ul-a2500 v2 amps are crap - diyAudio


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## Richv72

TrickyRicky said:


> Completely true, the transormers on the CM are bigger ( but not 5,000.00 bigger). Then I ask to see what components they use inside the CM's.
> 
> Let pretend that they do infact use higher end components than the 250.00 amp, I doubt they would come to 4grand in parts, there is no way in hell that would happen. Unless you have the pope of rome hand winding those transformers and giving them his powerful blessings. He may also add holy water on them for more power....but I guess we'll never know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did send an email to the CM's store contact, I ask to know who are these "Audiophiles" that helped design their amps. To know what components they use. I doubt I'll get a response but if I do....I'll make sure to post it HERE SO Aaron can read it.


I sent them an email also. wasnt quite as freindly.


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## Richv72

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> This...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know it doesn't have really good specs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You love stirring up **** don't you?
> 
> How about the Arc/Vibe amps fiasko... not the same difference?
> 
> How many CM products have you owed? How many have you put your hands on?
> 
> I bet you've owned or considered the Vibes though...
> 
> I'm hearing blah blah blah blah, but do you actually have ANY bassis for what you say?
> 
> I'm failing to see what ANY of that had to do with anything, besides fueling some sort of fire, you provide no fact, nothing but opinion, and one based on "what you herd"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wanted people to see what?? The mistake of not doing your homework...
> 
> Well, in this day and age it's kinda inexcuseable...
> 
> I'm not trying to defend anything but the facts here (although I have owned a CM product)... And the fact is you didn't do enough homework and now, because it's guts look like that of some other amps guts (likely almost identical) you feel taken...
> 
> I ask, is it Critical Mass's fault, or yours?
> 
> Was it Arc Audios fault if people bought thier amps, instead of the Vibes?
> 
> EDIT: that thing that companies do to sell products, marketing, you went with the one that does the least/worst of the bunch... Retardedly expensive "MSRP" to tanalize the weary web-surfer looking for something "different"
> 
> Keep it mysterious, don't put anything out there but "celebs" touting your product... and well, fish bite on all sorts of things...


yes aaron thats why i feel taken. Without a picture of the guts inside its hard to tell if something is great or not, if you can find another picture anywhere of the guts of this amp then let me know what your secret was. I actually did do my homework, but there is so little info on these amps good or bad. Honestly though man ive already written it off a loss and am thinking about my next amp purchase.


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## TrickyRicky

Richv72 said:


> yes aaron thats why i feel taken. Without a picture of the guts inside its hard to tell if something is great or not, if you can find another picture anywhere of the guts of this amp then let me know what your secret was. I actually did do my homework, but there is so little info on these amps good or bad. Honestly though man ive already written it off a loss and am thinking about my next amp purchase.


THERE is nothing about CM on the web regarding how they are better than the rest (the other companies that share the same board/heatsink/components/terminals/QC sticker/badge location ect ect). So once a consumer see's the 5799.00 retail price on the CM consumers right away believe the saying ""YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR"" which is a load of crap.

How many times as a little kid and as an adult we heard that saying???? So many times that we actually believe the "you get what you pay for" saying. While its true most of the time, it doesnt mean you have to go buying 5799.00 dollar amps for even 800.00 (that alone should let you know something).


Then you will have a hard time (nearly impossible) to find a decent video of someone sharing their view/opinion on it. Even CM's website doesn't offer enough info just a bunch of advertising of their own products with celebrities.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

Richv72 said:


> yes aaron thats why i feel taken. Without a picture of the guts inside its hard to tell if something is great or not, if you can find another picture anywhere of the guts of this amp then let me know what your secret was. I actually did do my homework, but there is so little info on these amps good or bad. Honestly though man ive already written it off a loss and am thinking about my next amp purchase.


No secret, just didn't/wouldn't buy one of the amps, I know too many amps that I KNOW produce... 

What others didn't/don't have is the UL12 




























And it looks like the Car Audio Mag review of it's been taken down... 

Possibly one of the most innovative designs of the early/mid 90's, possibly still today...(opinion of course) 

If you want to buy something "rare" you have to make sure it's rare first...

How was it so easy AFTER the fact for you to find out that the amp might not be all it says? 

What did it take for you to make that comparison? did you stumble upon it? where you actively looking? Did someone inform you? 

I mean really, what you are saying to me is, you didn't/couldn't find anything about the company good or bad, yet you went ahead and blindly spent 800$ on an amp... 

I now because you feel foolish for making a bad purchase, you think it's cool to drag someones name through the mud... 











To top it all off, you got TrickyRicky on your bandwagon with ZERO place to talk, besides being a loudmouth... 



You both realized that THIS hype, is just what makes them that much more mysterious, makes people wonder that-much-more...


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## TrickyRicky

So since I DONT have any CM products I can't talk crap about them??? You have a CM's subwoofer and that give you more knowledge regarding the company's history or products? After all all you have is a subwoofer, so that doesnt let you know crap about their amps.

I guess I have to drop a grand on one of those CM amps so I can talk **** about them, uh? 



Thats a nice woofer, I wonder why the review was taken down? Maybe someone found out they STOLE/SHARE the same design as a much much cheaper speaker. Maybe the reviewer found out that CM is just a bunch of HYPE and that he was involved in the HYPE. Just a thought.


And no all this hype on this thread does NOT make CM more mysterious....... more like ummm....... OVERHYPED OVERPRICED. It might be a wonderful design but if you can sell it for 250.00 and make enough profit to keep running your company then whats the need to put a 5800.00 price on it??? To fool people???


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## chefhow

TrickyRicky said:


> And no all this hype on this thread does NOT make CM more mysterious....... more like ummm....... OVERHYPED OVERPRICED. It might be a wonderful design but if you can sell it for 250.00 and make enough profit to keep running your company then whats the need to put a 5800.00 price on it??? To fool people???


I just find all this amusing. That analogy is like saying why does MB, BMW and Lexus charge $70k+ for their brand of cars when Hyundai makes a comparable one for $40k? They have all been reviewed and all been found to be comparable, NOT THE SAME but CLOSE. The reason that there are differences in price yet similarities in performance is because there is a market for all of them and people who have the money dont feel they have to justify to others why. I bet if you were all ballers and hand HUGE knots in your pockets you wouldn't think twice about buying a $5800 amp and showing it off you all your baller friends and entourage. 

Either way I'm happy with my world championship and $300 entry level ID amps....


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

TrickyRicky said:


> So since I DONT have any CM products I can't talk crap about them??? You have a CM's subwoofer and that give you more knowledge regarding the company's history or products? After all all you have is a subwoofer, so that doesnt let you know crap about their amps.
> 
> I guess I have to drop a grand on one of those CM amps so I can talk **** about them, uh?
> 
> 
> 
> Thats a nice woofer, I wonder why the review was taken down? Maybe someone found out they STOLE/SHARE the same design as a much much cheaper speaker. Maybe the reviewer found out that CM is just a bunch of HYPE and that he was involved in the HYPE. Just a thought.
> 
> 
> And no all this hype on this thread does NOT make CM more mysterious....... more like ummm....... OVERHYPED OVERPRICED. It might be a wonderful design but if you can sell it for 250.00 and make enough profit to keep running your company then whats the need to put a 5800.00 price on it??? To fool people???


 
It's not your fight to fight... You're simply a blowhard with a box to stand on...

The review has been up for 10yrs or so... It's likely they re-structured the site and it did get put back on due to age..


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

It's hillarious how easy it is for someone with NOTHING vested in this company, to sit there and jump on someone elses problem to bloat and inflate the issue... 

The issues here isn't CM selling amps for 5800$... The issue here is the TOOL that would buy one... 

If people BUY the product, the MARKETING WORKED... plain and simple... 

Who are you mad at again?


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## 07azhhr

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> It's hillarious how easy it is for someone with NOTHING vested in this company, to sit there and jump on someone elses problem to bloat and inflate the issue...
> 
> The issues here isn't CM selling amps for 5800$... The issue here is the TOOL that would buy one...
> 
> If people BUY the product, the MARKETING WORKED... plain and simple...
> 
> Who are you mad at again?


 
No offense Aaron but you are BEING THE BIGGEST TOOL here. You seem to have an issue with Tricky and are taking it up in this thread. You very first post you tear into Tricky for criticising CM amps BUT then you chastize the OP for being taken by a company that at that time you seem to not favor. Later you bring in the sub and start to defend CM. 
Calling the OP a tool for not finding a review on a sub vs the amps that he was looking at? Sheeezzzzz.




As for the amps and being the same there are just so many companies doing this now that it makes it hard to know who makes what and which ones are any if at all better then the others.


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## WLDock

The old saying goes: "Don't hate the player, hate the game!" Take a look at BOSE...yes they do some cool things but would you pay $2969.95 for their Lifestyle V35 home entertainment system? Many would and would be convinced that they have the best out there. BOSE products are not crap...but they do GREAT marketing.

Now that is pure game! BOSE has about 9000 employees around the world is a private company and Mr. BOSE is worth about a Billion! Don't hate! 

The Critical Mass brand goes right along with "celebrity" shops like West Coast Customs. None of us could afford to have an install done by these guys. But the celebs or ballers would not have it any other way. To them, it's not the "best" if it does not have a high price attached to it. The actual quality or worth is secondary.

The high-end market is all about price anyway. Many high-end products don't cost too much more then mid-line products to manufacture. However, when you slap a high price on it you expect that less of them will be sold so you have to cover yourself to make a profit. So either Critical Mass is trying to make big profits...or they don't expect to sell many of the $5000 amps???

Anyway, that UL12 sub was pretty damn cool....I wanted to check one of those out myself.

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2


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## 000zero

It seems like the OP and Ricky are just trying to get info out there so people can make an informed decision. Before there was no info about these amps but now if someone does a search they will find this thread and can make a decision. Everyone has a right to voice their opinion and that is all that is going on here, I think Aaron needs to chill out; he is entitled to his opinion just like everyone else on this thread but he could have done it without the name calling, thats just childish.


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## chefhow

000zero said:


> It seems like the OP and Ricky are just trying to get info out there so people can make an informed decision. Before there was no info about these amps but now if someone does a search they will find this thread and can make a decision. Everyone has a right to voice their opinion and that is all that is going on here, I think Aaron needs to chill out; he is entitled to his opinion just like everyone else on this thread but he could have done it without the name calling, thats just childish.


So calling Critical Mass a rip off is better than what Aaron has said? You cant have it both ways, either you respect the fact that Aaron has as much right to say what he wants or you cant defend the OP and Ricky.


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## 000zero

chefhow said:


> So calling Critical Mass a rip off is better than what Aaron has said? You cant have it both ways, either you respect the fact that Aaron has as much right to say what he wants or you cant defend the OP and Ricky.


If you re-read my post you can see that i said Aaron is entitled to his opinion, my point is if he is going to disagree with someone, do it without the name calling because it only discredits his argument. I never said anything regarding what the OP said, i just said he should be allowed to share his opinion without being insulted.


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## CrossFired

WLDock said:


> The high-end market is all about price anyway. Many high-end products don't cost too much more then mid-line products to manufacture.


So true! If you took the $250. soundmass amp and changed all of the parts to Mil spec/audiophile grade parts, it would cost about $80. If you bought in quantity, it may cost as little as $30.

I always use to argue with my rich Audiophile friends about dropping $12k on a power amp that would cost $700. to build.


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## TrickyRicky

chefhow said:


> So calling Critical Mass a rip off is better than what Aaron has said? You cant have it both ways, either you respect the fact that Aaron has as much right to say what he wants or you cant defend the OP and Ricky.


I stated before that we are all intitle to our own opinions, its called freedom of speech for god's sake. I respects Aaron's opinion regarding the subwoofer, but for him to start acting the way he did....I think he got out of line....I even apologize for whatever I did to him. We might not share same point of views but I have nothing against him.




000zero said:


> It seems like the OP and Ricky are just trying to get info out there so people can make an informed decision. Before there was no info about these amps but now if someone does a search they will find this thread and can make a decision. Everyone has a right to voice their opinion and that is all that is going on here, I think Aaron needs to chill out; he is entitled to his opinion just like everyone else on this thread but he could have done it without the name calling, thats just childish.


Thats exactly what amp trying to get out there. IF I HAVE TO USE BOLD RED LETTERS to get a consumers attention.... I will. But there is enought evidence now here and at DIYaudio that am pretty sure anyone thinking about buying a CM product (yes even their woofers) should think TWICE. This company doesn't even look legit, but again thats just my opinion.





CrossFired said:


> So true! If you took the $250. soundmass amp and changed all of the parts to Mil spec/audiophile grade parts, it would cost about $80. If you bought in quantity, it may cost as little as $30.
> 
> I always use to argue with my rich Audiophile friends about dropping $12k on a power amp that would cost $700. to build.


So true indeed, seeing how big those caps are am pretty sure there's a big difference in price between cheap and hi-quality caps. Just replacing 4 output transistors in my amplifier is going to cost me 22.00, and this is just a 300watt amplifier. Then replacing the caps for better spec is going to run me about 20 bucks, as for op amps the stock ones cost .85 cents while the BB's cost 3 bucks each (and my amps uses 6 of them so thats either 5.10 with stock or 18 for BB's).

So even if we pretend that CM did change those simple parts (caps, op amps, transistors, potentiometers, cables) to hi-end components I see about 100 bucks in parts but like you said companies buy in quantity so about 40-50 bucks. But to jack up the price 5grand is just a complete RIP-OFF.


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## Richv72

Well like i said if i would have seen the gut pictures side by side before i purchased them I would have went a different route. Before seeing the internals i figured everything must be completely different inside, so when i finally cracked mine open to see what treasure lurks inside I was in shock. It was almost identical looking. Now after researching audio companies using the same amp houses, normally they are pretty close in price and quality like cactus and dc. But in the cm case they are sharing an amp house with entry level amps. So maybe calling them a ripoff was a little harsh, i guess i could have cracked it open and found nothing but a note calling me a sucker.


----------



## Renegadesoundwave

so what other products in the ICE world are the "same" 

cannot just be these amps . Speakers must be very easy to"buy and brand'


----------



## thehatedguy

They are...but you see it a lot more in amplifiers.

http://www.chinafuturesound.com/subwoofer/

http://www.fenixspeaker.com/Woofer-1.htm

Those guys built some of the T3 Audio stuff...and you'll see a ton more websites like this on Alibaba.com


----------



## FartinInTheTub

I really liked the UL12... Sounded really nice. As for their other gear, they were just VERY good at marketing this stuff. It's definately entry level gear. Reminds me of how Audiobahn chromed up their stuff to appeal to the ignorant groundpounding teenagers.


----------



## rc10mike

So who actually made the UL12?


----------



## FartinInTheTub

rc10mike said:


> So who actually made the UL12?


Good question... I'm tuned in if somone has an answer.


----------



## oilman

Subscribed!


----------



## CrossFired

rc10mike said:


> So who actually made the UL12?


Dayton audio. You can get the same driver from PartsExpress for $29.95.






















Just kidding!


----------



## eRr

Which Dayton driver is that?


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

You guys are still pissing and moaning about this....

Fact is fact, the OP feels burnt because he thought it a good idea to buy from a company that keeps people in the dark...

It's YET to be determined as to weather the amp produces or not... so ALLLLLL of this on nothing but speculation, to this point... 

And on that point, it's been said already in this post, it's nothing new for companies to use other companies designs and even the same boards... (could be the same components for all we know at THIS point) 

Arc/Vibe... keep that in your head.. 

AFA TRicky, irrelivent considering he's just adding fuel to a fire he did not make...

I keep seeing Ricky standing behing the OP going "Yeah, take that" over the OP's shoulder... 

In fact, word for word, Ricky has spoke WAY more on something he has no experience with, than anyone else.. 



I want to see all the people that bought ARC Mini's flip out over the VIBE space amps...

People are FIXATED about CM advertizing crazy MSRP on products, yet the OP got his 5800$ amp for 800$...

Nobody that i know has ever paid retail for the product, I sure didin't


----------



## tyroneshoes

One thing they do well is create lightweight speakers for sportscars. 

Its amazing how light their 6x9 was. Under 1 lb each and could take lots of power. Just sounded average though.

interesting find

TS-W252PRS 25cm Subwoofer products, buy TS-W252PRS 25cm Subwoofer products from alibaba.com

Now we know where all the fake hertz/focal is sourced

Ali express

and focal


----------



## Richv72

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> You guys are still pissing and moaning about this....
> 
> Fact is fact, the OP feels burnt because he thought it a good idea to buy from a company that keeps people in the dark...
> 
> It's YET to be determined as to weather the amp produces or not... so ALLLLLL of this on nothing but speculation, to this point...
> 
> And on that point, it's been said already in this post, it's nothing new for companies to use other companies designs and even the same boards... (could be the same components for all we know at THIS point)
> 
> Arc/Vibe... keep that in your head..
> 
> AFA TRicky, irrelivent considering he's just adding fuel to a fire he did not make...
> 
> I keep seeing Ricky standing behing the OP going "Yeah, take that" over the OP's shoulder...
> 
> In fact, word for word, Ricky has spoke WAY more on something he has no experience with, than anyone else..
> 
> 
> 
> I want to see all the people that bought ARC Mini's flip out over the VIBE space amps...
> 
> People are FIXATED about CM advertizing crazy MSRP on products, yet the OP got his 5800$ amp for 800$...
> 
> Nobody that i know has ever paid retail for the product, I sure didin't


So wouldnt shining light on the dark make good sense?


----------



## Richv72

This is the response i got from the email i sent icontv. 

Have you actually used our product? Taking the product apart and looking at its components only tells part of the story. Critical MASS started out as the first Car Audio school back in 1990 (CMA). From this school many top Car Audio professionals have begun their careers, since then Critical MASS has and continues to make top quality products.



Many manufacturers use similar looks/parts with different end results.

We have noticed that over the years many brands have followed our look and feel. 

In many cases such manufacturers compare our products to theirs to make their product look better.



Although we cant speak for other makers, we can assure you that our amplifier is manufactured to match the UL12 (rated Best Subwoofer) @ .6 ohm DCR perfectly. It's performance when coupled to the UL12 will be second to none. 



If you would like more info on how to get the most of your Critical MASS products feel free to call our tech line @ 718 7529764 mon-fri.

So what they are saying is the other brands all copied the look of theirs.


----------



## TrickyRicky

tyroneshoes said:


> One thing they do well is create lightweight speakers for sportscars.
> 
> Its amazing how light their 6x9 was. Under 1 lb each and could take lots of power. Just sounded average though.
> 
> interesting find
> 
> TS-W252PRS 25cm Subwoofer products, buy TS-W252PRS 25cm Subwoofer products from alibaba.com


Interesting find indeed. Minimum order is 100, damn it I wanted a pair, lol.


----------



## 000zero

Richv72 said:


> This is the response i got from the email i sent icontv.
> 
> Have you actually used our product? Taking the product apart and looking at its components only tells part of the story. Critical MASS started out as the first Car Audio school back in 1990 (CMA). From this school many top Car Audio professionals have begun their careers, since then Critical MASS has and continues to make top quality products.
> 
> 
> 
> Many manufacturers use similar looks/parts with different end results.
> 
> We have noticed that over the years many brands have followed our look and feel.
> 
> In many cases such manufacturers compare our products to theirs to make their product look better.
> 
> 
> 
> Although we cant speak for other makers, we can assure you that our amplifier is manufactured to match the UL12 (rated Best Subwoofer) @ .6 ohm DCR perfectly. It's performance when coupled to the UL12 will be second to none.
> 
> 
> 
> If you would like more info on how to get the most of your Critical MASS products feel free to call our tech line @ 718 7529764 mon-fri.
> 
> So what they are saying is the other brands all copied the look of theirs.


UL12 rated best subwoofer? By who?


----------



## quickaudi07

Never heard of them. Never seen one in my life. Never going to owned one 

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

Richv72 said:


> So wouldnt shining light on the dark make good sense?


 
Shining a light on the dark is fine, jumping on someone elses bandwagon with ZERO to back what you say isn't(Tricky)... 

I'm not judging you in any way, besides you made a mistake, we've all done it, **** happens... 

I'm just trying to make it CLEAR that the mistake was not CM's fault... Rebranding someone elses product is common practice amung audio companies... 

Beyond that, I get pretty frikkin sick of people jumping up on the DIYMA box to scream about things that doesn't pertain to them (obviously NOT you, in this case) 

You may have a legit gripe against CM and/or ICON, but the fact remains that you fell for some seriously messed up marketing (again, was a mistake, understood) even buying used, you fell for some marketing, you stated yourself.. 

Please understand I'm just trying to make a point, not belittle or disregard someones opinion, I understand we all have them, but when they are dragging someones name through the mud, with NO basis in actual reality (Tricky) It's time for someone to say something ... 

Weather or not ICON or CM is a "good" company is kind of irrelivent, they've been around since the early 90's with this sort of marketing, they have to be doing something right and selling product somewhere or there wouldn't be anything TO discuss.. 

It's currently unknown as to weather the amp will perform up to it's claims... Guess what, there are literally HUNDREDS if not thousands of amps out there that "claim" all sorts of things and don't live up... 

This particular company happens to claim big numbers and command an extreme premium for these claims... Buyer beware... 

Wonder what CM is so popular?? Oh wait, it's not... 


People can hate on me all they like, BTDT, I'm still just stating facts..


----------



## rc10mike

I had a pair of UL12's a while back....really wish I would've kept them..


----------



## thehatedguy

There was too much BS surrounding the CM UL-12 for me to even begin to think about buying one.


----------



## TrickyRicky

thehatedguy said:


> There was too much BS surrounding the CM UL-12 for me to even begin to think about buying one.


Well you can't say anything about them since you haven't own any CM products....atleast thats how Aaron sees it.

But I would like to know....pm me some info (and I guess I'll have to keep that to myself since I didnt fall for the CM trap and purchase their product/s).

If everything worked like that then we all be falling for their crap.


----------



## pjf1fan

TrickyRicky said:


> Most of the time (if not all the time) the specs are exaggerated and meaningless.


Let me chime in here. I picked up an MTX TD75.4 and TD 500.1d amp for $150 and $130 respectively. These were brand new from reputable online resellers. I had the TD75.4 hooked up to a pair of Infinity Kappa components and Infinity Reference coaxials. With gains set right at about 1/3 level the amp got so hot after 15 minutes of Florida listening that I could not keep my hand on it for more than 2 seconds. The sound was loud but dull and lifeless. The highs were not there on original CDs either.

After that amp was replaced with an Alpine PDX-V9 5-channel, the system was night and day. Not only was it significantly clearer and louder but it was also smoother on the highs and punchier on bass. I took the MTX's cover off and photographed the insides. It's up on ampguts. As you can see, it's all the same as this Critical Mass. Just as the Polk Audio PA-D series and PPI Phantom are one the same, so is this MTX and Critical Mass. But unlike the Polk and PPI, this product offers nothing desirable in terms of sound quality. I recommend everyone to stay away.


----------



## robert_wrath

Hefty price tag on the CM amplifiers. Other options were available when these came out. Here were a few:
- Audison Thesis 
- Steg Master Strokes
- Tru Technology Billets ( a bit later )

IMHO, anyone of these puppies are a worthy investment toward a system upgrade. What do you think? All comments welcome good or bad.

- Wrath


----------



## thehatedguy

My thing with the UL12 was the published specs and the Klippeled specs were no where near the same and the CM rep had some BS reasoning behind it...essentially saying the parameters were nonlinear. I couldn't deal with the BS.

But that is not to say the sub didn't sound good.


----------



## robert_wrath

thehatedguy said:


> My thing with the UL12 was the published specs and the Klippeled specs were no where near the same and the CM rep had some BS reasoning behind it...essentially saying the parameters were nonlinear. I couldn't deal with the BS.
> 
> *But that is not to say the sub didn't sound good.*


Good point.


----------



## daveds50

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> Rebranding someone elses product is common practice amung audio companies...


interesting thread. 

it is not actually rebranding though. and it is also not ripping off designs. a lot of amps out there are just off the shelf items from Korean and Chinese manufacturers. any company can buy them, and put their name on them. sure, they can look slightly different, but electrically, i have not found many differences. 

i've worked on them all. there are many "models" of different amps that lots of companies share. not going to name any of them though. 

the ironic thing, is i see people here praising certain amps, and slamming another... when both amps are identical.  no, not talking about the particular amp in this thread... you guys can see the difference in that one... or... the sameness. and yes, i have worked on a lot of those too. 
( you guys missed a few companies that also use that board )


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

daveds50 said:


> interesting thread.
> 
> it is not actually rebranding though. and it is also not ripping off designs. a lot of amps out there are just off the shelf items from Korean and Chinese manufacturers. any company can buy them, and put their name on them. sure, they can look slightly different, but electrically, i have not found many differences.
> 
> i've worked on them all. there are many "models" of different amps that lots of companies share. not going to name any of them though.
> 
> the ironic thing, is i see people here praising certain amps, and slamming another... when both amps are identical.  no, not talking about the particular amp in this thread... you guys can see the difference in that one... or... the sameness. and yes, i have worked on a lot of those too.
> ( you guys missed a few companies that also use that board )


 
That right there is much of my point in this mass debation... Now that people are seeing what I'm saying, seems I'm not getting so much "flack" now.... wonder why, cause I was speaking the truth..


----------



## TrickyRicky

The thing is Aaron, is that I never praised another amp that shared the same design. I simply stated that I would RATHER buy the SAME design/board/heatsink from a different company that just changed the badge on the heatsink. Plus I doubt I'll ever need anything over 600watts on my subs, so chances are I'll never even think about buying this one or the clones. But for the size and power they must be impressive.

But to me it just seems like Aaron was pissed off at me for not falling into the CM trap, and for that very reason I cannot voice my opinion. I 100% understand his point of view..... but still once evidence is out there and its clearly the same board/heatsink/design what else is there to say????


Maybe thats how I should of kept it.... short and simple... uh.

"its clearly the same board/heatsink/design what else is there to say????"


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

Now we seem to be on the same level... Finally... Please understand, I wasn't going after you personally, until you made it a personal vendeta against CM in a semi-unimformed manner... you kinda just flew off the handle out into left field... 





> The thing is Aaron, is that I never praised another amp that shared the same design. *I simply stated that I would RATHER buy the SAME design/board/heatsink from a different company that just changed the badge on the heatsink*. Plus I doubt I'll ever need anything over 600watts on my subs, so chances are I'll never even think about buying this one or the clones. But for the size and power they must be impressive.


Actually you didn't... You said all sorts of nasty little things, things that YOU actually have no real business speaking on BESIDES the shear cost of the product.. 

You stated:


> Thank you for posting it. I always had my doubts about Critical Mass, especially their advertising. They claim this and that but nothing to back it up, except for celebrities and god knows they lie for a quick buck.
> 
> Its a complete rip off, and I bet their made in the same factory as those magus. This isn't the first time boards/designs are shared, even from the cheapest to the most hyped-expensive amps.
> 
> 
> Am glad you found out about them...the hard way but you learned. It would of being worse if you had kept buying CM stating their the bomb.
> 
> 
> 
> HELL they even share the same QC sticker, lol.


THEN you went on to say this...



> Most of the time (if not all the time) the specs are exaggerated and meaningless.


Foot in mouth syndrome? My RF Power 1000 5ch was rated @50x4 and 300x1, birth sheet came with 111x4 and ~700x1(they changed the ohm load)

There are as many overrated amps out there as there are underrated... you just have to know which side of the fence you are on.. 

You realize there is a whole list of ZED made BOSS Audio amps that kick ASS, and have the BOSS name? 


Is this a good recap of the events?? 



> Look at their advertising, they spent the whole time bragging about their SQ by using celebrities that don't know **** about SQ and NO proof of quality inside (hi-grade components??). Even if it did have hi-grade component that the clone....it still doesnt make it a 5799.00, a 2899.00, a 1500.00 or even a 800.00 amp for that reason.
> 
> 
> OP can you please remove one of those bars that cover up the transistors. I would like to know which output transistors it uses and what brand of capacitors. Take more hi-resolution pics from different angles. I won't be surprise if their low-end components in a "claimed" hi-end audiophile amp.
> 
> I wont be surprise if their components speakers are being made by the same factory as Audiobahn or Shockwave, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> This reminds me of the vid I posted on one of my threads called........AUDIOPHOOLERY... look at the last few minutes of the vid and DAVE is absolutely correct.


 



> Completely true, the transormers on the CM are bigger ( but not 5,000.00 bigger). Then I ask to see what components they use inside the CM's.
> 
> Let pretend that they do infact use higher end components than the 250.00 amp, I doubt they would come to 4grand in parts, there is no way in hell that would happen. Unless you have the pope of rome hand winding those transformers and giving them his powerful blessings. He may also add holy water on them for more power....but I guess we'll never know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did send an email to the CM's store contact, I ask to know who are these "Audiophiles" that helped design their amps. To know what components they use. I doubt I'll get a response but if I do....I'll make sure to post it HERE SO Aaron can read it.


So tell me, are you planning on Emailing ALL of the companies that sell stereo gear at RETARDED prices and ask them all these SAME questions?? 

Email Krell (10k$ CD transport, 5k$ DAC), Hell Email Martin Logan, Velodyne, Kliptch(sp?), Definitive Tech...ect... 

Email them, ask them why thier **** is so god damed expensive... 

I won't direct you to the TV show "Million Dollor Rooms" if you can't understand "Ritchy Ritch" prices...

Fact is, some shmuck is going to pay, just because of the price... Ask Master P.... uuuuhhhhhh Gold plated tank uuuuuhhhhhh na na na nah


----------



## pjf1fan

daveds50 said:


> ...
> 
> the ironic thing, is i see people here praising certain amps, and slamming another... when both amps are identical.  no, not talking about the particular amp in this thread... you guys can see the difference in that one... or... the sameness. and yes, i have worked on a lot of those too.
> ( you guys missed a few companies that also use that board )


What's wrong with naming the manufacturers that share the same internals? If you have knowledge that can benefit us consumers, there should be no reason to hold it back. I spent nearly $300 on amps that I now need to sell to a less discerning listener because I was a test mule for a marketing firm? 

The Massive Audio NX4 is the same as the MTX TD75.4 by the way.


----------



## TrickyRicky

pjf1fan said:


> What's wrong with naming the manufacturers that share the same internals? If you have knowledge that can benefit us consumers, there should be no reason to hold it back. I spent nearly $300 on amps that I now need to sell to a less discerning listener because I was a test mule for a marketing firm?
> 
> The Massive Audio NX4 is the same as the MTX TD75.4 by the way.


Am pretty sure he has signed privacy contracts. When you do so your not able to mention anyones name. You as a customer can (you didnt signed any privacy contracts). But most would look at you like "you dont know crap, your not a tech or amplifier designer, just another Joe". But you MAY be right about them been the same just dont mention it unless you have both side by side and compared all internal parts, lol.



As for Aaron, yes I got carried away. And yes I did write all of that, but I still stand behind of what I said, even though it didn't came out the way most wanted it to. For that I apologize, but my view still stands and I dont see CM any different, especially now.


----------



## ellocojorge

Subscribed, very interested

Sent from my LG-MS910 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## daveds50

pjf1fan said:


> What's wrong with naming the manufacturers that share the same internals?





TrickyRicky said:


> Am pretty sure he has signed privacy contracts.


 in a nutshell... correct. 

although there is no signed contract, and has not ever been talked about, it is just a personal business policy of mine not to talk about other companies, unless they want me to. 

in other words, dont bite the hand that feeds you... or fed you in the past, or may in the future. 

also, dont be fooled by a different heatsink. on a lot of the off the shelf amp boards, you have a choice of heatsink styles. or, you can source your own. makes it real hard to tell exactly what you are getting. 

kind of like years ago when i was given a old broken US Amps HC50 that the heatsink looked like someone threw it out of a car at 100 mph. i fixed the board and stuck it in a old Pyramid heatsink. i used that amp for quite a while. 

point is, looks can be real deceiving. i will say that there are some off the shelf amp boards that are not bad at all. i would use some of them.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

I'm not looking for an appology, I'm just trying to make it understood that facts are facts and opinion is opinion... 

I'm just trying to take the "emotion" out of it and look at it for what it is, sticker shock... 

There are only a select few that would even CONSIDER going down the CM road, the UL12 was ahead of it's time, the rest of the company, not so much... 

I would however like to appologize to you *Tricky* personally, I get as passionate about certin things as you Sir, I often look at my words as those of a good friend, one that's not scared to go "hey man, you're out of line" but it's often missconstrued and quite frankly, miss-represented by me... 

I didn't mean for this to get personal in any way...


----------



## Richv72

I may be naive but wouldnt a good company patent a design and vigorously go after other companys that tried to steal the design?


----------



## TrickyRicky

Richv72 said:


> I may be naive but wouldnt a good company patent a design and vigorously go after other companys that tried to steal the design?


Goodluck finding a company that ACTUALLY designes their own amp. After seeing how many "good" brand companies share the same pcb, heatsink, design it makes me believe that all their "later/future" products will be the same.


On that note has anyone seen the new LinearPower amp guts. They look like NO OTHER, and am more than sure they wont let ANYONE use their designs, atleast not without a fight.


Also the Zuki look original (unique), but again I haven't done any research on them so can't say for sure.


----------



## robert_wrath

Richv72 said:


> *I may be naive but wouldn't a good company patent a design* and vigorously go after other company's that tried to steal the design?


There aren't many companies out there who pony up the $$$ to patent an amplifier design(s).


----------



## Sleeves

So just to gather together a bit of board-sharing info, I'd love to see a list of the companies using this set of boards (with the quality of internals/cooling being an unknown at this point). 

So far we have:

Critical Mass UL series
Soundmagus DK series
American Bass Phantom series
Massive Audio Nano series
MTX TD series


Any others?


----------



## thehatedguy

Have you guys looked over on AmpGuts.com to look at other internals?

I haven't in a while...just curious.


----------



## rc10mike

If you paid 5749.00 for that amp, you got ripped off....pretty plain and simple to me..

You may have too much money and too little knowledge to care, but you still got ripped off..

Like buying a fake Rolex for full price...

I dont care what parts are inside that amp...it looks like an everyday average amp.

Pop open a Brax Matrix, Steg MSK3000, or Audison Theses if you want to see what a multi-thousand dollar amp *should* look like.

Does anyone remember when the CM 4ch was listed at over $100k?


----------



## thehatedguy

I'm having a hard time believing people are dumb enough to pay the prices being asked on eGay for some of the Critical Mass stuff.

Some of it is priced about retail for really GOOD quality stuff...the rest of it the seller is smoking crack asking over 2 grand for the UL12.


----------



## tyroneshoes

thehatedguy said:


> I'm having a hard time believing people are dumb enough to pay the prices being asked on eGay for some of the Critical Mass stuff.
> 
> Some of it is priced about retail for really GOOD quality stuff...the rest of it the seller is smoking crack asking over 2 grand for the UL12.


Its his clever way of upping the value.

I bought coaxial 6x9s and 5x7s from him. He lists them for $588 obo and accepted 250 no counteroffer.

While he has a ridiculous $2000 amp for buy it now, he also has one or two no reserve auctions going on. 

He averages about 200-300 per 6x9 doing this but some people pay $588 for the speaker checking his feedback.

The 5x7s I got for $125 on auction and resold them for 300 using his ad undercutting him.

The UL sub goes on no reserve auction as well and fetches around 400 - 500 usually. 

Ive been following him for a while and making some easy extra money reselling his auction Buy it now.

And the coaxial were not bad speakers at all. But it doesnt sound much better than a $100 6x9. Its just a pound and takes 200 watts and is under 2" deep. Very specific market


----------



## ChrisB

I actually like the Critical Mass philosophy because they sell a few products for a high profit margin. That makes customer support a breeze unlike some lower cost company moving high volume of the similar product for a 5 to 10% gross profit margin. They get to deal with the kiddies who low volt them and do other things to blow them up because they are the cheap boner of the month product.

Granted, I have no experience with Critical Mass, therefore I know nothing about their customer support.


----------



## ellocojorge

Sleeves said:


> So just to gather together a bit of board-sharing info, I'd love to see a list of the companies using this set of boards (with the quality of internals/cooling being an unknown at this point).
> 
> So far we have:
> 
> Critical Mass UL series
> Soundmagus DK series
> American Bass Phantom series
> Massive Audio Nano series
> MTX TD series
> 
> 
> Any others?


I think the audio pipe mini amps too

Sent from my LG-MS910 using Tapatalk 2


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## blazing928

Good read, I have emailled CM a few times about my UL12 and found them most helpfull.
CM claim that the UL12 needs 1500-3000wrms to drive the sub in a 0.25cuft enclosure.

So, who else makes a 0.75ohm amp that puts out over 2000w rms? [like the UL2500]
Does the CM amp actually output what they claim?

The amp may be the same as others, there does appear to be some changes internally, but if it works as claimed then its up to the buyer to decide what price they will pay, capitalism at its finest!


----------



## 07azhhr

blazing928 said:


> Good read, I have emailled CM a few times about my UL12 and found them most helpfull.
> CM claim that the UL12 needs 1500-3000wrms to drive the sub in a 0.25cuft enclosure.
> 
> So, who else makes a 0.75ohm amp that puts out over 2000w rms? [like the UL2500]
> Does the CM amp actually output what they claim?
> 
> The amp may be the same as others, there does appear to be some changes internally, but if it works as claimed then its up to the buyer to decide what price they will pay, capitalism at its finest!


 
The massive Audio version, the N4, is rated at 2000 watts at 1 ohm. For less then $500.

Who wants to run a 12 in a .25cft enclosure? And would it even fit given the dimensions of the sub?


----------



## minbari

blazing928 said:


> Good read, I have emailled CM a few times about my UL12 and found them most helpfull.
> CM claim that the UL12 needs 1500-3000wrms to drive the sub in a 0.25cuft enclosure.


complette sillyness. who wants to run a 12" sub in .25cuft so that it requires 3kw just to function? put it in 1-1.5cuft and I bet it play just as loud with 500watts.


> So, who else makes a 0.75ohm amp that puts out over 2000w rms? [like the UL2500]
> Does the CM amp actually output what they claim?


this is one of those marketing numbers games. 2000 watts into .75 ohms. even if it did, who cares. even if you wire a sub(s) to .75 ohms it will heat up and no longer be .75ohms 15 seconds later. add .2ohms of wire and connection loss and you are up to 1ohm and lost 500 watts from your amplifier. if this doesnt convince you that 4ohm sub loads are better, I dont know what will.


> The amp may be the same as others, there does appear to be some changes internally, but if it works as claimed then its up to the buyer to decide what price they will pay, capitalism at its finest!


----------



## 07azhhr

There is also American Bass making it at 2k watts @ 1ohm and for less then $275.



Sleeves said:


> The next size up is the comparable one:
> 
> American Bass PH-4000 MD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The there is the Massive N4 that we already have pics of on the site:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, a test of the actual power output of one of these models (AB PH-4000 MD):
> American Bass PH-4000 MD Test | Facebook
> 
> Besides different colored circuit boards, I'm very interested to know what types of part differentiate these amplifiers.


----------



## [email protected]

Lol, a 12 in 0.25 cubes. If thats not enough reason for everybody to stay away from CM, then I dont know what is. They must like the sound of poop, cause that is gonna be some peaky ass bass.


----------



## Sex Cells

I have a similar conversation with the local barkeep every time he charges me 4x more for the same box of wine I can get at the supermarket. 

It's farking ridiculousness man.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

The Massdebation continues

Sent from the other side using mind bullets...(YapaTalk)


----------



## TrickyRicky

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> The Massdebation continues
> 
> Sent from the other side using mind bullets...(YapaTalk)


LOL. Just dont take it personal am pretty sure you might think different if you wouldn't be an owner of a CM product.


----------



## blazing928

The American Bass is at least the same size as the CM amp.
The Soundmagus is 1.5" smaller, at 13.5"., however I think this may just be measuring differences.
CM claim their amp is 15" long. Also it is 0.6ohm stable, where the other are 1ohm min.
CM quote different s/n ratios etc. Of course all unverified for CM haters!;-))
Can CM change somthing simple to make the amp 0.6ohm stable?
Personally I think the CM amp is the same as the AB amp.

If someone has a CM UL2500, does it say "min 1ohm" , above the speaker outputs, like the AB and SM does?

There needs to be an ISO/DIN standard of testing so confused amp buyers. like me, can make some sort of informed decision on at least some fundamental specs.

As to whether it sounds bad in a 0,25cuft box can only be assesed by listening and not preconcieved ideas. They have always quoted a Ultra small sq box of 0.35cuft.

Personally I am considering an ARC KS2500.1. CM are quite adamant that my 
Brax X2000 has not enough power to run a UL12. Well it does power it, as I have done so for some time in a tempory install in a very average off the shelf box. If anything I get the feeling CM have some knowledge about bass and lots of it.


----------



## Richv72

blazing928 said:


> The American Bass is at least the same size as the CM amp.
> The Soundmagus is 1.5" smaller, at 13.5"., however I think this may just be measuring differences.
> CM claim their amp is 15" long. Also it is 0.6ohm stable, where the other are 1ohm min.
> CM quote different s/n ratios etc. Of course all unverified for CM haters!;-))
> Can CM change somthing simple to make the amp 0.6ohm stable?
> Personally I think the CM amp is the same as the AB amp.
> 
> If someone has a CM UL2500, does it say "min 1ohm" , above the speaker outputs, like the AB and SM does?
> 
> There needs to be an ISO/DIN standard of testing so confused amp buyers. like me, can make some sort of informed decision on at least some fundamental specs.
> 
> As to whether it sounds bad in a 0,25cuft box can only be assesed by listening and not preconcieved ideas. They have always quoted a Ultra small sq box of 0.35cuft.
> 
> Personally I am considering an ARC KS2500.1. CM are quite adamant that my
> Brax X2000 has not enough power to run a UL12. Well it does power it, as I have done so for some time in a tempory install in a very average off the shelf box. If anything I get the feeling CM have some knowledge about bass and lots of it.


Actually it does say 1ohm min on the terminal.


----------



## TrickyRicky

What are those little circles with a slot throught them for (on the badge)?? It seems like they try to make it look like screws, lol.


----------



## pjf1fan

TrickyRicky said:


> What are those little circles with a slot throught them for (on the badge)?? It seems like they try to make it look like screws, lol.


Utter cheapness. This brand is just like my MTX TD75.4, same orange circuit board and side panel. That amp gets awful hot on a 4 ohm load so I'm not sure how this CriticalMass handles 1 ohm.


----------



## chefhow

pjf1fan said:


> Utter cheapness. This brand is just like my MTX TD75.4, same orange circuit board and side panel. That amp gets awful hot on a 4 ohm load so I'm not sure how this CriticalMass handles 1 ohm.


Maybe thats why its not actually the same.


----------



## Renegadesoundwave

try this subject on a TV forum ...its a riot !


----------



## TrickyRicky

chefhow said:


> Maybe thats why its not actually the same.


Am pretty sure they have something in the circuit that fools the amplifier into thinking the 1-ohm load is really a 4-ohm load (maybe increses the load inside? Dont know just guessing).

It wouldn't matter to me thought, I would never have to drive anything under a 2-ohms stereo yet alone MONO. But hey everyone or majority seems likes using low impendance, thats them...not me. I dont abuse my amps I like to make them as reliable as possible.


----------



## Renegadesoundwave

TrickyRicky said:


> Am pretty sure they have something in the circuit that fools the amplifier into thinking the 1-ohm load is really a 4-ohm load (maybe increses the load inside? Dont know just guessing).
> 
> It wouldn't matter to me thought, I would never have to drive anything under a 2-ohms stereo yet alone MONO. But hey everyone or majority seems likes using low impendance, thats them...not me. I dont abuse my amps I like to make them as reliable as possible.




same for me...
This low OHm thing is not my idea of fun .


----------



## Richv72

TrickyRicky said:


> What are those little circles with a slot throught them for (on the badge)?? It seems like they try to make it look like screws, lol.


Yeah thats exactly what i thought when i first laid eyes on it. I even included that question in my initial email when I thought maybe it was some kind of counterfeit amp, but no, they assured me it was authentic.


----------



## Richv72

Renegadesoundwave said:


> same for me...
> This low OHm thing is not my idea of fun .


As far as the ohm load goes it should be fine, ill be running 1 of these to each of my 13w7's, so I will just run them in 3 ohm because i Definately dont want to blow up my subs by overpowering them.


----------



## 07azhhr

For the price they are charging they could atleast re-silk screen the endcaps. And what is with putting that tested by sticker on the side. Keep that **** underneath or inside. I also hope that the swap out all the internals for better ones since that truely looks like they buy their amps retail and then just rebadge them and slap a tested by sticker. 

I wonder if the tested part is something along the lines of.......Go to the local retailer and pick up an amp. Then take it home and run a .75 or .6 ohm load on it for say 15 minutes. It stays running they slap their badge on it and the tested sticker and sell it as theirs.


FWIW I would not have bagged on them this much if it weren't for seeing those endcap pics. It just makes it look awfully suspicious.

Perhaps they get the SM's then swap out the internals but I do not understand them not redoing atleast the speaker sides endplate.


----------



## TrickyRicky

07azhhr said:


> For the price they are charging they could atleast re-silk screen the endcaps. And what is with putting that tested by sticker on the side. Keep that **** underneath or inside. I also hope that the swap out all the internals for better ones since that truely looks like they buy their amps retail and then just rebadge them and slap a tested by sticker.
> 
> I wonder if the tested part is something along the lines of.......Go to the local retailer and pick up an amp. Then take it home and run a .75 or .6 ohm load on it for say 15 minutes. It stays running they slap their badge on it and the tested sticker and sell it as theirs.
> 
> 
> FWIW I would not have bagged on them this much if it weren't for seeing those endcap pics. It just makes it look awfully suspicious.
> 
> Perhaps they get the SM's then swap out the internals but I do not understand them not redoing atleast the speaker sides endplate.



Those endcaps on the CM are what gives it the $5.7k look, lol. Trust me if I ever was to see that on such a high-priced item I would just laught and walk away. For that much money it better be CNC or laser etched and also have my name etched then filled with 24k gold, atleast that way it would look like a $5k amplifier (even though the insides still remains the same as other MUCH MUCH cheaper amps).


----------



## Richv72

07azhhr said:


> For the price they are charging they could atleast re-silk screen the endcaps. And what is with putting that tested by sticker on the side. Keep that **** underneath or inside. I also hope that the swap out all the internals for better ones since that truely looks like they buy their amps retail and then just rebadge them and slap a tested by sticker.
> 
> I wonder if the tested part is something along the lines of.......Go to the local retailer and pick up an amp. Then take it home and run a .75 or .6 ohm load on it for say 15 minutes. It stays running they slap their badge on it and the tested sticker and sell it as theirs.
> 
> 
> FWIW I would not have bagged on them this much if it weren't for seeing those endcap pics. It just makes it look awfully suspicious.
> 
> Perhaps they get the SM's then swap out the internals but I do not understand them not redoing atleast the speaker sides endplate.


Yeah the huge gold letters written in mettalic pen threw me off when i first saw it, I guess this one was signed by the artist.


----------



## 07azhhr

Richv72 said:


> I guess this one was signed by the artist.




I will be that artist and I won't even ask for 5k for my autograph.


----------



## keepinitoldskool

wow....


----------



## rc10mike

They told me 1.3cuft was the best for the UL12's....thats what I put them in. Sounded pretty good.


----------



## Sleeves

I said something dumb and removed it 

Just so it's not a total waste of space: I have to agree with Chris B's assessment of their marketing strategy. If the masses do not catch on to their "elite equipment" scheme they get a chance to make (ridiculously) high margin with a small customer base. This would allow them to provide amazing customer service due to the low volume of customers. Let's face it: the people willing to pay full retail for any of their products probably neither have time to thoroughly research nor have a ton of knowledge of the industry. Their super high MSRPs also make it so that even when people "get a steal" from a no reserve auction CM still at least doubles their money. The ethics of it are debatable, but they have a plan, stick to it, and it's less work than selling tons of equipment @ low margin (like 99% of retailers do).


----------



## TrickyRicky

Sleeves said:


> I said something dumb and removed it
> 
> Just so it's not a total waste of space: I have to agree with Chris B's assessment of their marketing strategy. If the masses do not catch on to their "elite equipment" scheme they get a chance to make (ridiculously) high margin with a small customer base. This would allow them to provide amazing customer service due to the low volume of customers. Let's face it: the people willing to pay full retail for any of their products probably neither have time to thoroughly research nor have a ton of knowledge of the industry. Their super high MSRPs also make it so that even when people "get a steal" from a no reserve auction CM still at least doubles their money. The ethics of it are debatable, but they have a plan, stick to it, and it's less work than selling tons of equipment @ low margin (like 99% of retailers do).


Not only that (the dealing with the customer part) but if the owners blow up their CM subs/speakers/amps.....well lets just put it this way.....CM has enough of the customer's money that they can replace the same item/product a few times (hell if they pay retail 5,700.00 for the amp) then CM can replace it 18 TIMES before actually loosing any money.....TALK ABOUT GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE.


This reminds me of they silly AC SHOCKWAVE speakers, they price them at 600-900 for a set of coaxils that actually cost about 20-30 bucks to make. Which gives AC SHOCKWAVE the ability to give the costumer a LIFE TIME GUARANTEE/WARRANTY for their crappy products.....NOT TO MENTION they ask for 10% for product replacement (lets see....hmmmm.... 10% of 900.00 is 90 bucks....which gives AC SHOCKWAVE a profit of 810.00 IF you where to buy a 900 speaker set, then to replace it AC SHOCKWAVE would make another 60 bucks everytime you replace its products.


What a way to make money and keep customers happy, why no-one thought of this before????


----------



## Richv72

TrickyRicky said:


> Not only that (the dealing with the customer part) but if the owners blow up their CM subs/speakers/amps.....well lets just put it this way.....CM has enough of the customer's money that they can replace the same item/product a few times (hell if they pay retail 5,700.00 for the amp) then CM can replace it 18 TIMES before actually loosing any money.....TALK ABOUT GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE.
> 
> 
> This reminds me of they silly AC SHOCKWAVE speakers, they price them at 600-900 for a set of coaxils that actually cost about 20-30 bucks to make. Which gives AC SHOCKWAVE the ability to give the costumer a LIFE TIME GUARANTEE/WARRANTY for their crappy products.....NOT TO MENTION they ask for 10% for product replacement (lets see....hmmmm.... 10% of 900.00 is 90 bucks....which gives AC SHOCKWAVE a profit of 810.00 IF you where to buy a 900 speaker set, then to replace it AC SHOCKWAVE would make another 60 bucks everytime you replace its products.
> 
> 
> What a way to make money and keep customers happy, why no-one thought of this before????


The problem is while there is an implied warranty no where in the 4 page ditto instructions does it have any warranty information. As a matter of fact after you buy this amp you are sent by the seller a square trade warranty quote, I did purchase the square trade warranty also. There is no factory warranty as far as i can tell, even though they word it like there is.







here is the only mention of a warranty in the instruction manual.


----------



## ChrisB

They probably want you to use the authorized dealer for your warranty. This is nothing different than what Memphis Car Audio, Arc Audio, JL Audio, Zapco, and a whole slew of other manufacturers want you to do. In other words, if you purchase unauthorized, you are generally SOL when it comes to warranty issues.


----------



## Richv72

ChrisB said:


> They probably want you to use the authorized dealer for your warranty. This is nothing different than what Memphis Car Audio, Arc Audio, JL Audio, Zapco, and a whole slew of other manufacturers want you to do. In other words, if you purchase unauthorized, you are generally SOL when it comes to warranty issues.


Yeah man its basically a shell game because the internet ebay guy metroholdings is an authorized dealer and probably the only dealer of critical mass. The ebay guy has returns not accepeted in all of his auctions, and after you buy you get the squaretrade agreement quote emailed to you.
In my opinion they bring in the 3rd party to keep people from having any factory warranty coverage at all.


----------



## TrickyRicky

Talk about customer service....lol. I never used Square Trade, but I did buy it twice for two products (a Stroker subwoofer and an amplifier) both items surpassed the warranty bought/purchased. I can't say anything negative about them, but for me it seems nearly impossible for them to repair old-school electronics especially went most parts are extinct.


----------



## squeak9798

rc10mike said:


> So who actually made the UL12?


Don't know who physically manufacturered the driver, but the motor topology (MMAG) is patented by STEP so I would imagine they designed the driver.


----------



## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> I'm having a hard time believing people are dumb enough to pay the prices being asked on eGay for some of the Critical Mass stuff.
> 
> Some of it is priced about retail for really GOOD quality stuff...the rest of it the seller is smoking crack asking over 2 grand for the UL12.


Well I think it's all marketing... They show amps that have an MSRP of 5k, 7.5k, 100k 
Then under another eGay seller name, post that exact same amp @ 1.2k (5k), 1.5k (7.5k) or 3k (100k) - making people feel like their getting their money's worth :laugh: 

Kelvin


----------



## ChrisB

subwoofery said:


> Well I think it's all marketing... They show amps that have an MSRP of 5k, 7.5k, 100k
> Then under another eGay seller name, post that exact same amp @ 1.2k (5k), 1.5k (7.5k) or 3k (100k) - making people feel like their getting their money's worth :laugh:
> 
> Kelvin


Ahh, the power of marketing! Gotta love it. Although I will admit, that UL12 does look rather unique. Not $3,000 worth of unique for a subwoofer, but unique nonetheless.


----------



## slipchuck

BeatsDownLow said:


> Looks like it all comes out of the same factory as powerbass


I used to work at a tire factory that made other tire brands, and even though it was the same manufacturer. the specs were made to fit the customers needs.
It is possible that many stereo components are made at one place (kind of like apple and hp get some of their work done at the same source)
In other words, they might look the same but the components are different.
But then again they might be charging big bucks for the brand name instead of using high quality components inside 

Just my 2 cents on the issue

thanks

randy


----------



## 07azhhr

slipchuck said:


> I used to work at a tire factory that made other tire brands, and even though it was the same manufacturer. the specs were made to fit the customers needs.
> It is possible that many stereo components are made at one place (kind of like apple and hp get some of their work done at the same source)
> In other words, they might look the same but the components are different.
> But then again they might be charging big bucks for the brand name instead of using high quality components inside
> 
> Just my 2 cents on the issue
> 
> thanks
> 
> randy


From the first comparison pics shown it can be seen that different internals have been used so I do not think anyone even questions that part. The question, for me atleast, is what parts did they change that are worth several thousand dollars. $300, $400, $500 even sure, but several thousand


----------



## Renegadesoundwave

07azhhr said:


> From the first comparison pics shown it can be seen that different internals have been used so I do not think anyone even questions that part. The question, for me atleast, is what parts did they change that are worth several thousand dollars. $300, $400, $500 even sure, but several thousand



My heart goes out to the poor parents of these idiots that fell for the great marketing !

just goes to show.. "more money than sense "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Bkp02

Can't help but notice that the SS-A1000 v2.0
looks awful lot like my Polk Audio D1000.1. At $350 vs. $2450 the D1000 is a d class amp but even if the CM is a class (which I am not sure about really)it should not be worth $2100 more...jus sayin. I'd rather spend it on Gladen's amps and put the left overs in my pocket if I had my money to spend all over again.


----------



## [email protected]

Bkp02 said:


> Can't help but notice that the SS-A1000 v2.0
> looks awful lot like my Polk Audio D1000.1. At $350 vs. $2450 the D1000 is a d class amp but even if the CM is a class (which I am not sure about really)it should not be worth $2100 more...jus sayin. I'd rather spend it on Gladen's amps and put the left overs in my pocket if I had my money to spend all over again.


None of their amps are A class, thats for sure.


----------



## putergod

TrickyRicky said:


> Goodluck finding a company that ACTUALLY designes their own amp. After seeing how many "good" brand companies share the same pcb, heatsink, design it makes me believe that all their "later/future" products will be the same.
> .


Currently at least these companies engineer and build their own amps:
Mmats
Mcintosh
Milbert
Harrison Labs

There's probably a few more... I just don't feel like searching.


----------



## minbari

BeatsDownLow said:


> None of their amps are A class, thats for sure.


and if they were, it doesnt really cost more to biuld a class A amplifier. for car audio, they are just not practical.


----------



## Gary S

Critical Mass is good stuff. But the List prices are ludicrous.

But I don't think many pay list prices anyway, particularly on the net. You could probably negotiate a discount price with a dealer and buy 3 or 4 of them for the list price they are asking for 1.

Reality is, for every 100 brands, there are about three build houses - so most of this stuff is coming from the same place, and there are lots of off-the-shelf parts that different brands share. But there may be a few parts here and there that are slightly different, so no two products will be exactly identical. Kind of like a Camaro and Firebird are both GM - mostly the same, but slightly different.

Squeak mentioned Step Technologies - that's Patrick Turnmire, the designer and patent holder - I know the speaker factory he use to use was Sonovox - Same place and person the DEI era ADS comps came from which were a highly regarded speaker. Vance Dickason supposedly did some of the comp crossovers. But they design all classes of stuff - from high end to economy - you just have to know what you are buying, and consider each product on it's own. GM makes Corvettes and Cadillacs - but they also make economy cars too. It's a business.


----------



## Jonny Hotnuts

I didnt read the 6 pages of threads so dont shoot me if this was mentioned but is there any possibility that the CM amp was a fake? 

Its not like China manufactures dont pop out fake Dynas, Focals, Hertz drivers......
It would certainly be easy enough to screen new end caps and have a trophy shop make some gold logo plates. 

I have seen a gut shot of the UL2500 (*not the UL a2500) and it doest look anything like this amp in discussion. 

~JH


----------



## DAT

Sleeves said:


> The next size up is the comparable one:
> 
> American Bass PH-4000 MD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The there is the Massive N4 that we already have pics of on the site:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, a test of the actual power output of one of these models (AB PH-4000 MD):
> American Bass PH-4000 MD Test | Facebook
> 
> Besides different colored circuit boards, I'm very interested to know what types of part differentiate these amplifiers.




Yeah I know, the AB and Massive N4 are made in same factory, both do excellent power as rated....


I have never had a return on any AB or Massive amps I have installed locally, but some other name brand amps twice the cost have had several returns or failures, so just be careful..


----------



## Sleeves

Sorry to interrupt, but the AB does not do rated power:
American Bass PH-4000 MD Test | Facebook
First picture shows it does a touch over 2000watts. Neither the box nor the owner's manual for this amp ever mention the remote possibility that it might not do "4000W rms Mono". I guess a "W" is their unit of measure that is roughly half a watt. At least Massive had the decency to only claim "2000W rms" and "4000W MAX".


----------



## putergod

At least the box does say "4000W x1 Max" and not just "4000W x1"
Anyone with any intelligence in car audio, or any audio amplifiers for that matter, would know right away that it probably doesn't do any more than 2000W RMS.

I do agree that it's very shady the way crap companies rate their Chinese built crap, however, but at least the word "Max" is there...

Of course it doesn't really matter to me anyway, because I don't buy crappy Chinese built amplifiers.


----------



## Richv72

putergod said:


> At least the box does say "4000W x1 Max" and not just "4000W x1"
> Anyone with any intelligence in car audio, or any audio amplifiers for that matter, would know right away that it probably doesn't do any more than 2000W RMS.
> 
> I do agree that it's very shady the way crap companies rate their Chinese built crap, however, but at least the word "Max" is there...
> 
> Of course it doesn't really matter to me anyway, because I don't buy crappy Chinese built amplifiers.


What amps do you buy?


----------



## putergod

in the 90's: PPI and SoundStream
in the early 2000's: US Amps
now: Mmats


----------



## TrickyRicky

putergod said:


> in the 90's: PPI and SoundStream
> in the early 2000's: US Amps
> *now: Mmats*


What type of Mmats? As in new or old school amps?


----------



## putergod

TrickyRicky said:


> What type of Mmats? As in new or old school amps?


New
In the GTO I have the SQ4160 and M3000.1D
In the Audi I am getting the HiFi-6150D

SQ and D series are made in the USA (I was assured by Rick at Mmats that they will stay made in the USA as well). MPA series is made in asia - to fill the market of the cheap bastards that wont pay for US made quality.


----------



## Richv72

I was browsing the web again for actual people who have used critical mass and stumbled upon this site. I can guarantee you they all work for critical mass because the company is in New york and some of the comments are exactly like the youtube video comments.
See this is the kind of sie you stumble on when just looking up "critical mass amplifier review" I have posted there a few times and its hillarious how many negative votes i got for telling the truth.

CRITICAL MASS AUDIO ULA2500 V2.0 & ULA800V2.O CAR AUDIO AMPLIFIERS AMP - Topix


----------



## TrickyRicky

Lol, what about me? I want props too, lol.


----------



## ChrisB

TrickyRicky said:


> Lol, what about me? I want props too, lol.


Go purchase the new Linear Power and Blues Car Audio gear with all the associated mods, then you can start your own ripoff thread...:laugh:


----------



## rc10mike

LOL, I cant believe anyone defends these people. CM needs to die...


----------



## Richv72

Guido said:


> Richv72 I was talking to a reseler and he told me that since you started with these "hate CM because their retail price is so high" post sales for American BASS have skyroketed because they are using it to sel their amps. They are comparing their 2500 wich is about 1000W to the CM 2500 wich at 3/4 ohm CM says its 2500w.
> 
> Gurcharan Ahuja aka Bob Ahuja
> owner of American BASS wants to thank you
> http://www.12voltnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DSC04063.jpg
> 
> http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/322ce08951f88ee94ab6a386496d8fb6c7f084dd00e7ad360e20eddcddcea4df5g.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The moral of the story. dont believe the haters or the promoters. just listen.


Interesting story guido, funny the name guido comes up alot on youtube videos stating how great the cm products are so im wondering if you are one of the employees of cm. Funny thing is the thread isnt labeled how expensive cm is, the thread is labeled cm is a ripoff because it uses the same case, the same boards, and the same layout and parts of entry level equipment. Also "Guido" if you will notice the picture of the side of the CM Amp it clearly says "minimum 1 ohm" right next to the speaker outputs, so how can it be 3/4 ohm stable?. Save your phony propaganda for the naive suckers out there, because you arent fooling me, anymore. Maybe instead of pretending to be some regular guy, you should come into this thread and explain that you work for critical mass, and why they are not a ripoff and explain the differences between the other products listed and your product ok guido?


----------



## WhippingBoy

Richv72 said:


> I bought 2 of them, 1 was 860 the other 900.


Thanks for the info and honesty.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

Guido said:


> Here, you said you could not find a system that uses critical mass amplifiers, How about the SEMA Best of show car winner?
> 
> SEMA SPEED award Electrostat Critical Mass Audio 300c.avi UL12 Band Pass Channel JL - YouTube


 
Nothing was said about "best of show" 

That dude with the shaved head said he was looking for "cool stuff" and stumbled into the CM booth where he demoed the 250K electro stat setup in the POS 300C... Didn't even mention the sound, more that it cost 250K and would take 6mo to install... Oh, and that only 9 where left... :laugh:


----------



## subwoofery

Guido said:


> Aron'z I corrected my statement, as I remember it being best of show but it does not say that on the video. that being said. that car is the real deal. it was well documented and the people that heard it said it was amazing. Including respected audio guys. I know there is more info out there on this car from people that heard it and if i find it I will post it. However its not my mission to defend the car or Critical MASS. Critical MASS is expensive and way over priced for most of us but just like the Ford GT40 which is way expensive, it does not mean that its a rip off. America strives on innovation and ideas. If we tag all that we cant afford as rip off all American industries/companies will become stagnant and development and ideas will never come to fruition. You just put this CM 250K system and the UL12 and look at the other companies that are considered good value and you will see what I mean. We can find good value in many great companies, and each year they refine their head units or subs or amps, but rarely does a company come out with something completely new like a simultaneous multi stage vehicle were each listener has their own front stage independent from one another. That is a huge undertaking from concept to reality and all though it has not yet made it to the main stream you never know. many American ideas where way ahead of its time, that become successful later on. You want to talk about rip off, before that critical MASS 250K audio system in the video most manufacturers were pushing 5.1 telling the customers that it was OK to put the center channel in the center of the car which is to the left or right of each listener, yet the same manufacturers would say differently on their home systems stating the center channel must be directly in front of the listener. It took this system on the video to change what was considered true 5.1 in a car and BS marketing 5.1 in the car. What about the UL12. Original MSRP was $1999 and all though extremely expensive it was worth it to those who needed a super light weight Subwoofer that was both Sound Quality and SPL and works in enclosures as small as 0.25qft. What more can you say about that Subwoofer? Critical Mass UL12 Subwoofer Review - SSA Car Audio Forum


A long stroker/high output 12" in a 0.25cuft enclosure won't sound like an SQ woofer unless you lowpass your subwoofer @ 30Hz 12dB/oct in order to take away the humongous peak in the sub band frequency... 
Just sayin'

Kelvin


----------



## Shinju

Sleeves said:


> So just to gather together a bit of board-sharing info, I'd love to see a list of the companies using this set of boards (with the quality of internals/cooling being an unknown at this point).
> 
> So far we have:
> 
> Critical Mass UL series
> Soundmagus DK series
> American Bass Phantom series
> Massive Audio Nano series
> MTX TD series
> 
> 
> Any others?



Reference Hi-Fi (2008) No longer around. X1500
Audiopipe 1500D
Soundtream D-tower (I can not remember what model but all of the D-tower amplifiers had the Soundmagnus boards in them)
Soundstream Stealth Series (4 channel amp below, looks like the MTX with some slight changes)

















MTX









Soundstream DTR-2200 










Audiopipe 1800d


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## Richv72

I bet if i crack my my ula 800 open it will look exactly like the 4 channels you posted. Also the soundstream looks like the only one who chose to use the 2nd set of giant capacitors.


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## putergod

Guido said:


> Critical MASS is expensive and way over priced for most of us but just like the Ford GT40 which is way expensive, it does not mean that its a rip off.


Your posts are so full of caca that I have to keep my feet off the ground. It's been PROVEN in this thread that CM is nothing more than a cookie cutter, rebadged, chinese build house piece of crap, yet actually believe their exact same POS product is worth 20 times more than another POS, IDENTICAL, product simple because it has the CM name on it.

I'll stick with what I KNOW is both designed, and built, in the same facility, here in the USA - Mmats. And they are actually resonably priced given the EXCEPTIONAL, AMERICAN, quality.


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## Richv72

This is actually why im so irritated guido, i could have a room full of zapco right now instead of a room full of cm. I only mentioned I had 2 amps, but I actually bought 4 CM Items because I had wanted everthing to match.


----------



## putergod

Guido said:


> LETS SEE WHO IS FULL OF CACA! AKA POOP
> 
> I'm all for MATTS making amps in the US (but your statment is wrong) MATTS only makes some of the higher end Amplifiers with larger power output in the USA. The rest is China. This is what THOMPSON owner of MATTS just said.
> "U.S.-built amps fall under the M Series, and range in price from $349 up to $1,399, with power output from 600 watts RMS to 3,000 watts RMS. It’s not cost effective to build amps in the U.S. with lesser power, said Thompson"
> And here is the info on the CHINESE MATTS Amps
> "In new overseas products there is a P1 line of subwoofers available in 10, 12 and 15 inch sizes and a lower cost amp line, called the MPA Series that includes 6 amplifiers from $199 for a 300 watt model to $549"
> 
> I know you want to push MATTS and thats fine and all but if you think CM is cookie cutter answer me this?
> What is cookie cutter about CM in this product Critical MASS product?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - Broadcast Yourself
> 
> http://www.criticalmassaudio.com/ces5.1.pdf
> 
> I'm waiting? What's Cookie cutter?
> 
> When you answer that I have more for you.


Obviously you don't know much about what you speak. the ONLY amps made by Mmats that are made in China are the NEW, CHEAP, MPA series. All others are made in FL, USA. They only recently launched that line for all the cheapskates that aren't willing to pay for quality. Also, show me a CM amp, made anywhere (and we know where they are made...) that puts out the kind of power Mmats puts out that doesn't cost a lot more... I paid less than 1k for the M3000.1D (from an authorized dealer, not ebay). It meters at WELL over 3kw (closer to 6kw), is made in the USA, heavily over engineered, and is of their OWN design (not an off the shelf Chinese board like CM). Again, this thread is about CM being a rip-off. Not, necessarily, about the overall "quality" of CM (which if you've seen my posts over the years, you'll know how I feel about the quality of ANY amp made in china).

This thread, all by itself, speaks more than enough volume for my "cookie cutter" comment. Do you need someone to define that word/phrase for you?? 
cook•ie cut•ter
Noun:
1.A device with sharp edges for cutting cookie dough into a particular shape.
2.Denoting something mass-produced or lacking any distinguishing characteristics.

Look at the images taken of CM products, and several "cheap" brands posted in this thread alone. THAT is the definition of "cookie cutter"...


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## [email protected]

Lets get the sand out our vaginas everyone. I know the 4th is almost here, but lets keep the sandy vags near the beaches.


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## ChrisB

BeatsDownLow said:


> Lets get the sand out our vaginas everyone. I know the 4th is almost here, but lets keep the sandy vags near the beaches.


Come on man, where is your sense of American Spirit? E-beat-downs are the new favorite American Pastime.:laugh:


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## putergod

Wow... are you Obama?


I'm leaving work... I'll repost the info from earlier in this thread for you, you know, to "answer your questions" when I get home... and I will correct you, yet again, about Mmats then as well... so... stay tuned.


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## [email protected]

5.1 in car audio is about the gayest thing I have ever heard of.


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## TrickyRicky

The CM 5.1 is another joke from within the company. I bet they throw a party (which I bet it doesn't happen very much at all) everytime an idiot spends anywhere near the 250k price tag. Just like you mentioned (guido) they are "OVERPRICED" and not just that OVERHYPED with a bunch of idiot celebrities that advertise it. 

I guess you must of missed the "AC SHOCKWAVE" products, they are just like CM......POS. And the only reason I called them "POS" is because their over priced when the same exact board is 10x cheaper in price than CM. We all notice that CM had a few but very few components different, that still doesnt mean they should jack up the price by 10x than others. Unless thats their secret to greater SQ and HI-FI sound.


Even if I was to hit the mega millions I would never ever spend a quarter of a million dollars on a speaker system that will go in a CAR/VEHICLE (you have to be the biggest dumb-ass in the face of the planet, trust me you will look like it also when showing it off to your suppost to be friends).



AUDIOPHOOLERY my friend, AUDIOPHOOLERY. 

Now I wouldn't mine dropping a few/couple of grand on a hi-end home theater system. That I know I will be able to enjoy without engine, air, traffic, weather noise simply because a room can is much easier to "damp/silence/control sound" than a car's cabin. Trust me I know I do it for a living (acoustical panels on musical halls, college audiotoriums, schools & commercial buildings, ahhh and theathers -WARREN THEATER IN OKC... I was part of it).


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## Shinju

Someone bought into the hype! And did not even get free shipping either!

Critical MASS ULA4x350CM-15² best 5ch Amplifier jl ul12 | eBay


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## TrickyRicky

Looks like that enclosure is more than 0.25cu ft.

Who said it was the best woofer in the world? Dont tell me its those guys that CM takes care by giving them their cookie-cutter products to keep. Heck if I get one for free I myself would say it's the best woofer in the world, LOL. All those review-ers where likely paid or fell into the CM hype. If they advertise it as the best woofer in the world then give it a high MRSP then it has to be the best woofer in the world, shouldn't it??? To simply minded people like yourself.....IT IS. To people like me, its just another over-hyped over-advertised CM product.


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## [email protected]

Someone needs to ban this troll.


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## TrickyRicky

Shinju said:


> Someone bought into the hype! And did not even get free shipping either!
> 
> Critical MASS ULA4x350CM-15² best 5ch Amplifier jl ul12 | eBay



With specs like the ones below, am more than sure he's happy he spend that tpe of money on such a product.


SUB Channel 300W × 1CH RMS @ 4ohm, 600W × 1CH RMS @ 2ohm, 1050W x 1CH RMS @ 1ohm
*Damping Factor > 950 S/N Ratio > 125 dB Total harmonic distortion 0.0041%* on class A channels





BeatsDownLow said:


> Someone needs to ban this troll.


NO lets have a little more fun with him before we do so.


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## daveds50

what i really want to know, is how much CM is paying Guido to spam ? i am being totally serious when i ask this. 

having worked on a lot of the off the shelf boards that is the subject of the original post in this thread, i am not buying a word he is saying. while it is not a total POS, it is nowhere near what is claimed by CM. 

i should buy a few of those boards... anyone with a business licence can after all... ( and it is questionable if they care about a licence ) have wheelieking make some billet heatsinks for them, and sell them for $5000 each. that would blow away the CM amp, as the heatsink would be like no other manufacturer. 

wait... did i just give my marketing secret away ? ignore the above... :laugh:


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## Richv72

I think it says alot about a company like cm, for some reason they wont officially respond to this thread so instead they send guido in to make an argument for them. All im asking for guido is for you to tell us what the difference is between the amps. Do you guys use all different capacitors, different componets. Should be an easy explanation but the way you are beating around the bush and double talking, seems you are hiding something. If you truly believed in your product guido, you would answer some strait forward questions, then the consumer can make up their own minds.


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## WRX2010

Shinju said:


> Someone bought into the hype! And did not even get free shipping either!
> 
> Critical MASS ULA4x350CM-15² best 5ch Amplifier jl ul12 | eBay


:laugh: a $13,000 BIN price, but the 1 that sold went for $1,000. guess it is not nearly worth the BIN price.


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## putergod

DAMNIT! I spent like an hour typing a response to shut this idiot up and my power flickered! I'm buying a freaking UPS TONIGHT!!

Anyway, I'm retyping. Stay tuned.


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## putergod

Guido said:


> LIKE I SAID. YOU WOULD NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION BECAUSE YOU CANT
> (YOU MUST BE RUNNING FOR OFFICE)
> 
> AND YOU LIED!
> 
> YOU SAID MATTS MADE THEIR AMPS IN THE USA!
> AS IT TURNS OUT ITS ONLY SOME AND THEIR SPEAKERS AND AMPS ARE CHINA WITH A FEW AMPLIFIERS ONLY FOR WHICH IM PROUD O SAY ARE MADE IN THE USA
> 
> NOW YOU CHANGE YOUR STORY. AND CORRECT YOUR FIB.
> 
> WHOSE THE CACA HERE?
> HINT!
> LOOK IN THE MIRROR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BOOH YAH


Amplifiers Made in the USA
M600.2D
M600.1D
M1000.2D
M1000.1D
M1400.2D
M1400.1D
M2000.2 D
M2000.1D
M2000.05D
M3000.1D
M3000.05D
SQ4100
SQ4160
HiFi-6150D
Plus 4ch version of above
Plus a marine version of every amp listed above

Amplifiers made outside of the USA
MPA270
MPA2200
MPA2300
MPA470
MPA4150
MPA1700D
And these are at least DESIGNED in-house! Not a “reproduction” like most CM amps.

So, that’s 15 (30 counting marine versions) models of MADE IN THE USA and 6 that aren’t (but ARE Designed in the USA).

Subwoofers – in your own post you said the P1 series was made overseas. That’s 4 subwoofer models total.
P110D
P112D
P112S
P115D

What about all the others?
JUGGERNAUT 12 
JUGGERNAUT 15 
JUGGERNAUT 18
DREADNAUT 12 
DREADNAUT 15
P3.0 10
P3.0 12
P3.0 15
P2.5 10
P2.5 12
P2.5 15
P2.0 10
P2.0 12
P2.0 15

14 products vs 4….

Now what was that CACA you were spreading?

Oh, this was it:


Guido said:


> YOU SAID MATTS MADE THEIR AMPS IN THE USA!
> AS IT TURNS OUT ITS ONLY SOME AND THEIR SPEAKERS AND AMPS ARE CHINA WITH A FEW AMPLIFIERS ONLY FOR WHICH IM PROUD O SAY ARE MADE IN THE USA


Pure crap. You know nothing. Obviously.
Before you go slamming and spreading caca about a true AMERICAN audio company that makes MOST, M-O-S-T, 
most [mohst]
adjective, superl. of much or many with more as compar. 
1. in the greatest quantity, amount, measure, degree, or number: to win the most votes. 
2. in the majority of instances: Most operations are successful. 
3. greatest, as in size or extent: the most talent

Of their products HERE, in the USA, which is FAR more than CM even thought about, much less actually does, you need to make damn sure you have your facts straight… Or someone is going to straighten them out for you (like ME)!



Guido said:


> YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION!
> 
> WHAT IS COOKIE CUTTER ABOUT THE BEST 5.1 CAR AUDIO SYSTEM IN THE WORLD WHICH HAPPENS TO BE MADE BY CRITICAL MASS?
> 
> ANSWER IT!
> 
> WHAT !
> 
> YOU CANT!
> 
> YOU ARE TRYING TO READ IT BUT YOUR EGO WILL NOT LET YOU BECAUSE YOU WROTE CHECKS YOU CANT CASH!
> 
> DUDE HAPPY 4TH
> 
> http://www.criticalmassaudio.com/ces5.1.pdf
> 
> SEMA SPEED award Electrostat Critical Mass Audio 300c.avi UL12 Band Pass Channel JL - YouTube
> 
> DON'T WORRY THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING OF THE QUESTIONS YOU WILL NEED TO ANSWER TO MAKE YOUR POINT.


I want the two minutes of my life back that I wasted watching a ******** advertisement for the most overpriced, overhyped, POS car audio crap in the world.
You do realize that ANYONE can build that stupid, retarded, boneheaded dumbass system using practically any brand of components, if they were stupid enough. It’s sad that that is the ONLY thing you can try to come up with. You are OBVIOUSLY one of two things.
A.	Employed by CM
B.	Were stupid enough to waste your money on crap that you could have paid 1/10th the amount for, and had the same thing (just with a different name) and are trying your damnedest to justify your stupidity while hoping to drag others into it so that you don’t feel alone.



Guido said:


> WAIT TILL YOUR BOSS FINDS OUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING AT WORK.
> 
> DUDE, MMATS MAKES SOME AMPS IN THE USA. THATS MORE THAN MOST.
> I WISH THEM AND THOMPSON THE BEST.
> 
> AS TO YOUR ANSWER.
> READ THE 1 MINUTE INFO AND WATCH THE 2 MIN VIDEO BEFORE ANSWERING.
> 
> SEMA SPEED award Electrostat Critical Mass Audio 300c.avi UL12 Band Pass Channel JL - YouTube
> 
> http://www.criticalmassaudio.com/ces5.1.pdf


Oh, and I am THE IT guy (thought my username made that kinda apparent)… I control the network. As long as I keep it humming, my boss don’t care what I do, as my job is getting done. So, BIOYA.

BTW… care to answer mine? Didn’t think so.

Oh yea, and I did say I would repost for you, since you’re too damned stupid to look for yourself (or already know the truth and are in severe denial):



Richv72 said:


> Heres the picture of my ul-a2500v2 guts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now heres a picture of soundmagus1800w guts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now unless they have all different quality part inside this in my mind is a complete ripoff and ill be calling them on it. The sound magus amp cost less then 300 bucks.





Sleeves said:


> The next size up is the comparable one:
> 
> American Bass PH-4000 MD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The there is the Massive N4 that we already have pics of on the site:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, a test of the actual power output of one of these models (AB PH-4000 MD):
> American Bass PH-4000 MD Test | Facebook
> 
> Besides different colored circuit boards, I'm very interested to know what types of part differentiate these amplifiers.





pjf1fan said:


> Let me chime in here. I picked up an MTX TD75.4 and TD 500.1d amp for $150 and $130 respectively. These were brand new from reputable online resellers. I had the TD75.4 hooked up to a pair of Infinity Kappa components and Infinity Reference coaxials. With gains set right at about 1/3 level the amp got so hot after 15 minutes of Florida listening that I could not keep my hand on it for more than 2 seconds. The sound was loud but dull and lifeless. The highs were not there on original CDs either.
> 
> After that amp was replaced with an Alpine PDX-V9 5-channel, the system was night and day. Not only was it significantly clearer and louder but it was also smoother on the highs and punchier on bass. I took the MTX's cover off and photographed the insides. It's up on ampguts. As you can see, it's all the same as this Critical Mass. Just as the Polk Audio PA-D series and PPI Phantom are one the same, so is this MTX and Critical Mass. But unlike the Polk and PPI, this product offers nothing desirable in terms of sound quality. I recommend everyone to stay away.



Oh, and that UL12 that you’re so stuck on… you know… the ONLY product I have seen from CM that might actually be their own (doubtful – and is probably still Chinese) just looks like a copy of the old Paradigm neo subwoofer from the 90’s.


----------



## WRX2010

don't waste your breath. First, Guido ( or should I type Guda) can't read apparently because he cannot spell anyone's ID correctly. Second, Guido if you are going to put a quoted passage in one of your post, it means nothing to anyone if there is no reference to where you got it from, and preferably a link to the source. For all I know, you just typed up some crap to support your position. Third, you are trying to support your positive opinion of CM by providing no factual evidence other than links to youtube and a very outdated pdf of the 5.1 system.

BTW, in one of your earlier posts you actually stated that the CM boards are off-the-shelf Chinese crap. Don't believe me, read back a page or two when you were rebutting someone's understanding of where some of the MMATS (or MATTS as you like to type)amps are made.


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## putergod

Is it sad that I am finding myself camping this thread, just waiting for that troll to try and rebutt the cold hard facts above with some more caca laden drivel?


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## WRX2010

I guess so and that is a bummer. I saw it early on and thought the board comparisons were quite interesting. I have no intention of buying a CM product, so I have no interest in the argument. I just saw this thread again and was shocked by how long it had gotten.


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## putergod

I guess I'm one of those: "AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!!" types, lol.

I've always been very argumentative when it's something I feel passionately about. 
I think I'll go find something more constructive to do... like eat dinner.


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## TrickyRicky

WRX2010 said:


> :laugh: a $13,000 BIN price, but the 1 that sold went for $1,000. guess it is not nearly worth the BIN price.


Lol did you see the RCA's on that thing. With that type of MRSP I would expect the RCA's to be atleast panel mounted with a nut instead of a screw in the middle (most hi-fi amplifiers use panel mounted hex/nut RCA's).

They sold it for 1k because its not even worth that much to manufacture so either way they go they will get profit out of who ever buys them.




I myself want to know what makes CM so special, but non of their reps have come here and explained. How about those special audiophile engineers they claim designed their products, LOL now thats something to laught about.



I asked CM exactly this "I would like to know who are your speacial audiophile engineers you guys claim design your amps. I would also like to know what components your amplifiers use (such as output transistors, capacitors, op amps..ect)"


I NEVER GOT AN ANSWER, I guess they dont have one. I for one would like to know what type of idiotic answer they will come up with. Or will they send someone else like guido to help them answer these questions without ACTUAL answers.


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## rc10mike

LOL, I love this thread. I cant wait for this guy to post here avoiding the question by posting youtube vids of the 5.1 and UL12 again!


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## putergod

Does CM even go as far as having their name printed on the board? From the pics above, it doesn't look it. At least American Bass and Massive change the board's color and have their names put on them... That's gotta cost at least a few cents more per amplifier (which makes those two even more costly to build than CM - now THAT is sad!).


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## oilman

Now if I was spending this type of money on a amp. This is what I would expect.











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WRX2010

oilman said:


> Now if I was spending this type of money on a amp. This is what I would expect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Now that is an obvious Chinese knock off. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## putergod

oilman said:


> Now if I was spending this type of money on a amp. This is what I would expect.


What amp is that?

Sinfoni?
Brax?


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## TrickyRicky

putergod said:


> What amp is that?
> 
> Sinfoni?


We need better pics, showing components numbers. That way we can atleast look at the data sheets to see what to expect from such components.


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## oilman

Brax, I'm surprised you didn't get it tricky ricky. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ChrisB

The only thing that would make this the PERFECT thread would be for Guido to come back and brag about how Snoop Dogg runs Critical Mass in his whip.


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## Richv72

putergod said:


> Does CM even go as far as having their name printed on the board? From the pics above, it doesn't look it. At least American Bass and Massive change the board's color and have their names put on them... That's gotta cost at least a few cents more per amplifier (which makes those two even more costly to build than CM - now THAT is sad!).


no critical mass doesnt label the boards.


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## putergod

Richv72 said:


> no critical mass doesnt label the boards.


Figures... Why spend the extra pennies when you can milk the unsuspecting fool for that much more...


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## oilman

That was really the best pic I could come up with while pushing a shopping cart. And really its all I could offer because you guys can't see me LMAO at this thread. In all honesty though, CM amps may be the **** to a rapper, rappers waist their money on **** all the time. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WRX2010

Richv72 said:


> no critical mass doesnt label the boards.


That is enough of a reason for me not to ever buy one.


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## jeepguy

I'm no expert, but that aaron guy is either a retard or a critical mass employee


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## TrickyRicky

Happy "Fireworks" Day to you too.

The sad thing is that that magazine is from 2006 (nov). Would you like me to post some old magz stating how the CERWIN VEGA STROKER was the best design of its day? And how it's design wasn't touched for over 7 years (9 if am correct, but not sure). 

Also thanks for the rappers but we all know how dumb their decision making skills are (they lack sense- did you hear about the Chris Brown and Drake/Wayne club brawl?). They have childish-like minds and dont know how to make proper decisions. So do you actually think am going to buy something just because a "cool/hip" rapper has it? HELL NO. They already look like fools/SOFT with all that jewelery around their necks and wrists. 

My pesonal opinion (this is off topic but oh-well I just have to throw this out there), man only wear their wedding band and a watch (and the watch thing is rare now a days) and thats IT. Once you start wearing bracelets, ear rings, nose rings, ankle bracelets than thats when you have a serious problem and would need serious help regarding your machismo-ness.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

jeepguy said:


> I'm no expert, but that aaron guy is either a retard or a critical mass employee


 
And you signed up to make that point?? 

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## subwoofery

Guido said:


> I aim to please
> for your viewing pleasure here just a couple I found on line
> plus the 10 minute video you all love so much is filled with many more. just click below
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ICON TV CRITICAL MASS AUDIO DEMO UL12 ULA2500v2.0 ULA800v2.0 JL - YouTube
> 
> 
> Busta Bust
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Ludacris
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Wayne Brady
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2012 NY auto Show Critical MASS video below pic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Critical MASS New York Auto Show 2012, CM AUDIO LINE, THE UL12, COMPONENTS, PROCESSOR, AMPLIFIERS - YouTube


The more infos and pics you post (all from the same website BTW), the more I'm persuaded that you work for Critital Mass... 

Kelvin


----------



## DAT

Wow, this is crazy. Who really cares who makes CM amps or whatnot??? If someone buys them for the price they set as MSRP then it doesn't. 

I mean look at hyped audio triple-priced - It's Tang Bang drivers triple priced... I could go on but it's not needed.


----------



## Woosey

Just looked on their website and thought those x-over housings look a lot like the Focal KR series x-over housings.....

30mm Soft-dome tweeters:
Huge tweeter voice coil for truer sound.
WTF? truer sound?


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

DAT said:


> Wow, this is crazy. Who really cares who makes CM amps or whatnot??? If someone buys them for the price they set as MSRP then it doesn't.
> 
> I mean look at hyped audio triple-priced - It's Tang Bang drivers triple priced... I could go on but it's not needed.


 
They are simply adding to the hype that CM generates with it's MSRP... :laugh::laugh:


It's the "Marilyn Manson" Syndrom... 

MM shocked the world and became famous doing it... He knew exactally what he was doing and planned the whole thing... 

Shock and Awe... it works... So here we are... The "Critical Mass-debation" continues..


----------



## tyroneshoes

I actually have owned CM products (rs coaxials and shallow 12 seen in busta/wayne bradys ride)


The one thing they are undoubtedly is surprisingly light and a good choice for the supercars that you dont want to add weight to. But they are not great speakers nor worth half the price unless shallow and light is your top need. Then CM is up there as a good choice. 

I sold every CM product I have owned and I really wanted to use them, but theyre just not that good. I have not tried the UL sub but judging from your $600 coaxials and shallow mount subs you use, Im not impressed. And be honest about power handling. That shallow sub was supposed to be able to take up to 1000 watts but could barely handle 500 in the recommended enclosure.


----------



## putergod

Guido said:


> How about the guy who wrote the book on how to make speakers?
> Would that be good enough for you. Because there is no better reviewer than the guy who literally wrote the book on how to make speakers. Here just for you and the rest of the cronies that don't like to read facts.





Guido said:


> I aim to please
> for your viewing pleasure here just a couple I found on line
> plus the 10 minute video you all love so much is filled with many more. just click below





Guido said:


> Here is the compleate info you requested.
> Enjoy!
> 
> To all at DIY have a happy 4th and feel free to express your right to free speech


Wow... do you have any clue how "stupider" you look after every single post you make?
why are you dodging my questions? Isn’t that what you tried to, wrongfully, accuse me of?

So your "facts" come from car audio magazines - publications that make their money from advertising and hype up any product that pays good advertising - like CM does - I mean, with a 5000% markup, CM can pay great money for advertising. You do realize that that is equivalent to walking into a Harley shop and asking which is better, a Road King or a Shadow? (Road King in case anyone is wondering, but that's beside the point).

Oh, and thanks for showing us your true market. Complete and utter morons that a brain the size of a peanut and no clue about ANYTHING other than ganking a ho. That's your market. They see your MSRP and assume it must be the "shiznit". You know, because, you do "get what you pay for" - most of the time. 

I should start picking up a bunch of cheap spatulas at Wal-Mart and paint a gold logo on them, then resell them at 5000% profit. Maybe some stupid ass rappers will buy them.


----------



## Richv72

A very nice smoke and mirror show guido, you still havent answered the question of what makes the amps different then all the rest of the entry level amps. I mean you seem to be focused only on the ul-12, probably because we havent dug up its twin brother yet. I can see right through your propaganda and stay focused on the main question here. What makes critical mass amplifiers any different and any better then the entry level amps that use some of the same parts?. If we could find someone who could put them on a machine to compare them would there be any difference and why?. I mean honestly guido this should be an easy to answer question for such an intelligent, honest, employee of critical mass like yourself.
Does this site have an official amp tester, that can put amps on a testing rig and tell us how good they are, and identify all the componets and the quality of componets?. I would actually be willing to lose my amp temporarily to find this out, as long as I get it back. lol.


----------



## DAT

Richv72 said:


> A very nice smoke and mirror show guido, you still havent answered the question of what makes the amps different then all the rest of the entry level amps. I mean you seem to be focused only on the ul-12, probably because we havent dug up its twin brother yet. I can see right through your propaganda and stay focused on the main question here. What makes critical mass amplifiers any different and any better then the entry level amps that use some of the same parts?. If we could find someone who could put them on a machine to compare them would there be any difference and why?. I mean honestly guido this should be an easy to answer question for such an intelligent, honest, employee of critical mass like yourself.
> Does this site have an official amp tester, that can put amps on a testing rig and tell us how good they are, and identify all the componets and the quality of componets?. I would actually be willing to lose my amp temporarily to find this out, as long as I get it back. lol.




You will not find a twin brother for the UL12, I can say IMHO that it's one bad ass subwoofer, and in my top 10 subs built.

If it was not so expensive it would out sell the over priced Morel Ultimo.

But are damn good subs, if both were priced at $500 each I'd go UL12 everytime. Check out the weight of the UL12 versus other subs.

ok on to the amps.... i have installed a few of them and they were excellent amps are they made in a build house with other speakers?? Probably so.


----------



## daveds50

DAT said:


> ok on to the amps.... i have installed a few of them and they were excellent amps are they made in a build house with other speakers?? Probably so.


 agreed. while there are better amps, the original amp of this thread and the others that share the same board, are not horrible amps. they are strong amps. 

the only problem i have with CM is the people they paid off spreading BS like it is the best in the world... like Guido.


----------



## BuickGN

putergod said:


> Wow... do you have any clue how "stupider" you look after every single post you make?
> why are you dodging my questions? Isn’t that what you tried to, wrongfully, accuse me of?
> 
> So your "facts" come from car audio magazines - publications that make their money from advertising and hype up any product that pays good advertising - like CM does - I mean, with a 5000% markup, CM can pay great money for advertising. You do realize that that is equivalent to walking into a Harley shop and asking which is better, a Road King or a Shadow? (Road King in case anyone is wondering, but that's beside the point).
> 
> Oh, and thanks for showing us your true market. Complete and utter morons that a brain the size of a peanut and no clue about ANYTHING other than ganking a ho. That's your market. They see your MSRP and assume it must be the "shiznit". You know, because, you do "get what you pay for" - most of the time.
> 
> I should start picking up a bunch of cheap spatulas at Wal-Mart and paint a gold logo on them, then resell them at 5000% profit. Maybe some stupid ass rappers will buy them.


Speaking of facts, do you still say a sealed enclosure will always sound better than ported?


----------



## putergod

BuickGN said:


> Speaking of facts, do you still say a sealed enclosure will always sound better than ported?


All else completely equal, as described in the thread you are referring to... yes.


----------



## BuickGN

putergod said:


> All else completely equal, as described in the thread you are referring to... yes.


Then you are as guilty as Guido of "facts".


----------



## putergod

BuickGN said:


> Then you are as guilty as Guido of "facts".


Really? Are you that damn thick? Last time I checked, sound quality was extremely subjective, therefore 100% void of "facts" as you put it, so BIOYA.


----------



## oilman

SQ subjective...lol, so I've been chasing my tail all this time and not seeing the rewards? Its just like men in black? Damn!!!!! I really thought I was getting better dynamics, detail and a stronger stage. And it's all in my head?!?!? $hit! Now I'm pissed. I'm going to have to let everybody now we are waisting our time. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TrickyRicky

My cousin and I had this conversation today regarding the CM's UL12 being the best subwoofer in the world (or in the planet, usa, country, state, whatever because it really doesnt matter) that it was just and OPINION. An opinion can not be proven we all know that as we learn on how to tell the difference between an opinion and a fact.

But for Guido that may not know what the difference is here is a little example below,

Opinion: The CM UL12 IS the best subwoofer in the WORLD (or whatever).
Fact: THE CM UL12 is A subwoofer.


Just incase you didnt get it or catch on, here's another FACT for example.... "The clouds are white", thats a fact and not an opinion.

I dont care if our whole country stated that the UL12 is the best sub in the world. IT still remains an OPINION. Come on man, we learn this crap in the first grade.


----------



## jcollin76

What's the date on that cover? Is that 06 or 08?


----------



## Coppertone

It is actually July of 2006.


----------



## jcollin76

Coppertone said:


> It is actually July of 2006.


Oh okay, I couldn't make it out... thanks man!

Its amazing that there has been no advances in sub technology in the last six years.

I have never heard it, and it could very well be a great sub. I've heard enough people, who's opinion I respect, say its a great sub. 
But to say its THE best sub is just silly. Is it the best in IB? Super small sealed? What if I only have 200w, hows the efficiency? What about a shallow mounting depth, say under 4"? How about if you have a budget, is it still the best....??

Point being, it could be the best sub... in certain applications ... but not all. No sub is. PERIOD. and this isn't even dealing with being subjective... just facts.

Your bashing a "forum guy" for stating his opponion... well what the hell are you doing? He's being level headed at least...
Your dropping stuff from six years ago, laced with cute little animated pics about "you loose". Yeah, that really adds to your credibility ... even if you were right. 
Its great your supporting your company and all, but come on... 

Just wanted to chime in, I'm done feeding ya...

Oh, and your wrong!  ( sorry no craptastic animation)

...now I'm done.


----------



## BuickGN

putergod said:


> Really? Are you that damn thick? Last time I checked, sound quality was extremely subjective, therefore 100% void of "facts" as you put it, so BIOYA.


So now you're admitting sealed sounding better than ported is your opinion. Because if you get into measurable things such as distortion, sealed is going to lose, all else being equal.


----------



## 07azhhr

So besides this ONE sub and that 5.1 thingy, does CM make anything else that is unique to just them? Those coaxials with the helmet head thingy on them look like they could be one of a kind. 

Seems like they must not since that is ALL that Guido seems to be able to refer to to back up his claims.


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: Crtical mass UL12 is the BEST Subwoofer in the World*



Guido said:


> The Critical MASS UL12 is the Best Subwoofer in the world for automotive use.
> There is no other.
> Compare facts,
> not your opinion.
> I don't expect you to take my word for it.
> 
> If you actually read the detailed, documented, published test of the UL12, by non-other than the person who (wrote the book on speaker building) and than you add the later published documented TOP TEN Subwoofer List, also fact. (attached below).
> You will see that there is such thing as THE BEST. and "THE BEST" is Critical MASS.
> its just not yours!
> 
> Here is the real actual list of the top TESTED subwoofers by actual professionals, not me, not Critical MASS and not some forum punk that talks BS and have nothing to back it up. This list was published and is used by other companies on their forums to prove they are top ten. Why? because its recognized as a non biased actually published actually a legitimate list of the top 10 automotive subwoofers.


What if he wrote a book on speaker building... I can study it and write a book too - doesn't make me an expert on SQ "listening". 
He knows how to make a speaker... Great. But that doesn't tell us if he's an experienced listenner. 
Heck, even a deaf person can write a book - no offense meant... 
What if that guy received a $100,000 check to write his review? We don't know him and I won't take his words as words of the gospel. 

Again, you sound like you're working for CM coz you're defending your "opinion" with marketing arguments...

Kelvin


----------



## daveds50

jcollin76 said:


> Its amazing that there has been no advances in sub technology in the last six years.


 yeah, none at all...  and i am seeing an absence of some good subs from that era in their testing. remember, some of us use equipment that is designed around audiophile home use... from back then, and current. 
all i am seeing is Guido avoiding the topic of this thread... which is amplifiers. pretty sure that i know way more about his amps than he does. cant BS me on those Guido. 



07azhhr said:


> So besides this ONE sub and that 5.1 thingy, does CM make anything else that is unique to just them?


 you know, i did a quick and dirty experiment today. putting a center channel at home in front of me and one in front of my wife. wow, was that a wacked out experiment... while my attention was on the TV, the mono voices were coming from two sources that had nothing to do with the direction of the TV, and it seemed that what i saw on TV and what i heard were two completely separate things. it is best when the voices are coming from where the TV is, as that is where the actors mouth is. unique ? yes, good ? no way. 

while i have no use for 5.1 or any AV in a vehicle, i was just curious.


----------



## Richv72

Guido i honestly dont care about that outdated pos ul-12, its so old it belongs in a museum of natural history. This thread is about the amps sharing boards, cases, and every other component inside them with cheap entry level audio equipment. I would like to thank the people on this thread though because even if we save just 1 person from wasting their money on critical mass, we did them and our country a tremendous service.


----------



## Woosey

A plesure to read about a subwoofers imaging..


----------



## The Baron Groog

"Text: Vance Dickinson *AND CASEY THORSON*" it doesn't say who wrote what, Vance could have done the tech and Casey the subjective. Any review in any magazine should be taken with a pinch of salt, espescially when it's a $2000 subwoofer-ever heard of "psychoacoustics"? Ever heard of advertising? "write a poor review and we pull our $250,000 annual advertising budget..."

The subwoofer is well received, no doubt, though is it worth $2000? Not of my money, as it wouldn't fit my car-my sub is 10" and running out of 0.126cf and pre-dates the CM by about 10-15 years...

Regardless of who said what about the sub-the point of this thread was the amps and you can shout and scream how good they are but aside from a few subjective reviews here-mostly "sounded clean, lots of power"-which any amp of reasonable power and properly set up could achieve-there is nothing to back CM's claims up, nor their price.

A good deal is one where both parties would happily swap sides-so the seller would become the buyer-now, would anyone at CM buy their amps at RRP?


----------



## Renegadesoundwave

I bet some people are really upset about this thread..those stupid enough to buy the products and those with stock to sell !!!


----------



## diatribe

Why does Guido keep bringing up the UL-12? This thread is not about that sub, it's about the amplifiers that are carbon copies of other non Critical Mass models that cost a small fraction of them.

I'm pretty sure we're being trolled here folks.

If he mentions the UL-12 anymore then everyone should ignore him as his contribution to this thread is over.

On a side note, did you see the other drivers in the "subjective" list. Only a couple are highly rated relative to today's best subwoofers. However, I would like to have the UL-12 in my car for testing as I think it is most likely a nice sub.


----------



## chefhow

I cant believe you are all still arguing about how rich people spend their money...


----------



## The Baron Groog

diatribe said:


> On a side note, did you see the other drivers in the "subjective"* list. Only a couple are highly rated relative to today's best subwoofers. However, I would like to have the UL-12 in my car for testing as I think it is most likely a nice sub.


It was a somewhat limited list and also seemed to favour the highest priced drivers too-would love to see how some DIY drivers would fair on the same list.


*"subjective" on how much money you pay us...


----------



## Woosey

diatribe said:


> Why does Guido keep bringing up the UL-12? This thread is not about that sub, it's about the amplifiers that are carbon copies of other non Critical Mass models that cost a small fraction of them.
> 
> I'm pretty sure we're being trolled here folks.
> 
> If he mentions the UL-12 anymore then everyone should ignore him as his contribution to this thread is over.
> 
> On a side note, did you see the other drivers in the "subjective" list. Only a couple are highly rated relative to today's best subwoofers. However, I would like to have the UL-12 in my car for testing as I think it is most likely a nice sub.


Probably because he spent a lot of money on a sub that's not worth the $$$....


----------



## BuickGN

I have to say now I'm curious about this subwoofer. Never gave it a second look before.


----------



## tyroneshoes

Just curious that the RSD is in 3rd/4th place and is only $75.

Is it worth an extra $2000 for 5 subjective points?


----------



## Coppertone

As curious as I am to use this, my wife who allows me anything would castrate me if I purchased a $2000.00 subwoofer for a car that I hardly drive. Now saying that anyone know where I can get an extra $2000.00 ?


----------



## SQ Audi

Guido said:


> Here, you said you could not find a system that uses critical mass amplifiers, How about this one from SEMA ?
> 
> SEMA SPEED award Electrostat Critical Mass Audio 300c.avi UL12 Band Pass Channel JL - YouTube


That isn't a system that uses Critical Mass...it is a company vehicle with outrageous claims and outrageous expense. I call BS on that car. BTW, I also find it very funny that nobody has purchased this system EVER! Not even the NY fanboys from the Youtube videos.

If you can afford a 2011 Porsche 911 Turbo...you can probably get Wayde to discount the system for a true system in the car. Also, SEMA is all about one-off systems and one-off cars. 

Show me a car that has won USACi, IASCA, or MECA Finals with CM amps...then we can talk.


----------



## SQ Audi

*Re: Crtical mass UL12 is the BEST Subwoofer in the World*



Guido said:


> Marketing? You are tarnishing Van Dickanson and now accusing Critical Mass a company that started from the first car audio school and has made some pretty incredible achievements in Car Audio since than by saying that he (VAN) was bought by Critical MASS for $100,000?
> You are despicable!
> If you have proof of that please show us!
> If not than please stop the false accusations of people you don't know anything about.
> *That guy has been working as a professional in the loudspeaker industry since 1974.*He founded Speaker Research Associates (SRA).
> He is the author of the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, which is now in its 7th edition,
> and Loudspeaker Recipes
> A contributing author to audioXpress magazine,
> for 21 years the editor of Voice Coil, a magazine for the loudspeaker industry,
> Dickason was awarded by the Audio Engineering Society for his contributions to the audio industry in 1995.
> He has given presentations for ALMA (the Association of Loudspeaker Manufacturers and Acoustics),
> The Loudspeaker University,
> the Kenwood Electronics International Installers Conference,
> and an advanced seminar at *AutoSound 2000*


My question is this? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

If Van dude is the author of speaker building..why is it that if you do a simple search on Google for speaker building books, you will find more than 20 of them. Next is this...I have a 1964 Thunderbird which came stock with two speakers..one up front, and one in back...I am guessing by your logic that Van Dude invented the speaker, that these in my car are just figments of my defication. 

Dude, seriously. Your arguments have too many holes to hold any sort of water. But just to double check, I have emailed a good friend of mine, Mr. David Navone to see if Van dude is the originator of the speaker. After all, Autosound 2000 is Dave Navone's baby.

Well, I hope you have a great day. I will post up the reply here when Dave responds. he is a very busy man..so don't expect it soon.

Quote from Dave Navone....


> I've worked with Vance off and on for many years… He's a very nice guy, loves Oregon , and has built some great loudspeaker systems.


So in essence, he built speaker systems, not really the idea of being the originator of the speaker. Since my 64 T-bird has speakers in it, and they weren't built by Vance. Kinda before his time.


----------



## Renegadesoundwave

chefhow said:


> I cant believe you are all still arguing about how rich people spend their money...


we are not.. we are discussing stupid people [email protected][email protected]


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: Crtical mass UL12 is the BEST Subwoofer in the World*



Guido said:


> Marketing? You are tarnishing Van Dickanson and now accusing Critical Mass a company that started from the first car audio school and has made some pretty incredible achievements in Car Audio since than by saying that he (VAN) was bought by Critical MASS for $100,000?
> You are despicable!
> If you have proof of that please show us!
> If not than please stop the false accusations of people you don't know anything about.
> That guy has been working as a professional in the loudspeaker industry since 1974.
> He founded Speaker Research Associates (SRA).
> He is the author of the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, which is now in its 7th edition,
> and Loudspeaker Recipes
> A contributing author to audioXpress magazine,
> for 21 years the editor of Voice Coil, a magazine for the loudspeaker industry,
> Dickason was awarded by the Audio Engineering Society for his contributions to the audio industry in 1995.
> He has given presentations for ALMA (the Association of Loudspeaker Manufacturers and Acoustics),
> The Loudspeaker University,
> the Kenwood Electronics International Installers Conference,
> and an advanced seminar at AutoSound 2000
> I know who he is and where he comes from - doesn't make him a god in audio. Especially reading about listening results which by the way are subjective.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As to your "defending my opinion with marketing"
> Obviously you don't know the difference.
> 
> I'm pasting marketing samples first
> (So you see what Marketing samples look like)
> 
> and then I'm pasting factual data
> NOT Marketing, but data that was not purchased and is factual and published by what was the Car Audio Bible at that time. CAR Audio & Electronics Magazine.
> Again, the only factual data are the Klippel tests and the derived specs - that's all.
> "Music is an Art, Audio is a Science."
> Therefore I still think those pics you're posting are still marketing tools.
> 
> You will see a clear difference. One is Marketing the other NOT.
> 
> Than by all means do the same for what you believe is a better Car Subwoofer than the Critical MASS UL12.
> Don't forget the factual data! and make sure is factual as in not marketing (see samples I attached for your reference) Than if you actually get that far I will give you my opinion of both and you may do the same and that will be our opinion.
> 
> MARKETING SAMPLES (some contain factual info) for your review (below Marketing samples is the factual samples for your comparison)


The UL12 might very well be a nice subwoofer but that doesn't make that the best in the world - only the best subwoofer *TESTED BY THE MAGAZINE*. Why? Because Vance did not test a few subwoofer brands from around the world that were considered (and still are) SQ subs: Phase Linear Aliante, Alto Mobile Falstaff, Focal Utopia and K2P, Ground Zero Audio GZUW, Dynaudio MW190, A/D/S RS, Audio Development, Eclipse Ten TI (TC Sounds LMS based), Hertz ML (free air version), JBL Gti, Magnat, Micro Precision, OZ Audio Matrix Elite, etc... I'm sure I'm still missing a few. 

Kelvin 

PS: but yeah... Let's talk Amplifiers for a minute


----------



## chefhow

Renegadesoundwave said:


> we are not.. we are discussing stupid people [email protected][email protected]


So you are saying that people who have gobs and gobs of money, to the point that they dont care if a sub costs $2000 or $2.00 and an amp is $200 or $5000 are stupid? Really? There are BILLIONS of people who have no clue what we do, an industry that barely supports us in our efforts to support it, and you are going to call the ballers who spend copious amounts of money on it and in the brick and mortar shops stupid?

That seems kind of childish if you ask me, but what do I know?


----------



## Richv72

The pages he links shows the t/s parameters. Its got an fs of 40.6, one helluva midrange speaker you got guido. Guido is trying to threadjack this topic and twist it into a ul-12 argument. And honestly if the ul-12 was great how come they havent won 1 single competition for sq or spl, anywhere, ever. The only time i ever hear of a ul-12 is when someone is trying to pass it on to the next sucker. Even the people that buy them dont use them, they just try to drop that hot potatoe as fast as they got it. Must be extremely cheap when you see it in person if no one ever uses them.


----------



## SQ Audi

Richv72 said:


> The pages he links shows the t/s parameters. Its got an fs of 40.6, one helluva midrange speaker you got guido. Guido is trying to threadjack this topic and twist it into a ul-12 argument. And honestly if the ul-12 was great how come they havent won 1 single competition for sq or spl, anywhere, ever.


Actually, I did judge the USACi contest back in 2008 at Car Toys Tulsa. (Tulsa Invitational) There was a black A4 with Scan tweeters and a UL12 that placed very high...I think won..but I will have to check to make sure.

I will edit this post if I come across it again.

I wanted to mention this, but, it wasn't the sub that won the contest for me. The sub sounded nice, but, it was his staging and tonality that won me over in the end.


----------



## GouRiki

chefhow said:


> So you are saying that people who have gobs and gobs of money, to the point that they dont care if a sub costs $2000 or $2.00 and an amp is $200 or $5000 are stupid? Really? There are BILLIONS of people who have no clue what we do, an industry that barely supports us in our efforts to support it, and you are going to call the ballers who spend copious amounts of money on it and in the brick and mortar shops stupid?
> 
> That seems kind of childish if you ask me, but what do I know?


I don't really understand you're point but it's a personal opinion on how we choose to think of other people's actions, I agree with Renegade and anyone else who who happens to believe that.

I would not hesitate to call people like that stupid, not just in car audio but other areas as well.

But I think your point is more along the lines of, these people who are willing to not care about anything and make it rain dough are helping the industry/economy and therefore are somewhat necessary and they are people so they can do whatever they want.

I'd actually call the vast majority of people around the world stupid, including myself, but that's just how it is. People have their strong points and not so strong points.


I have been lurking this thread since it started btw, just never posted. It's entertaining.


----------



## BuickGN

I wouldn't call people stupid just because they have a lot of money to blow on expensive things. Blowing it on a re-badged amp that you can get for 1/10th the price, sure. Blowing it on a unique sub that may or may not be worth the asking price when it doesn't make a dent in their finances is their business and it doesn't make them stupid. My ex spent $13,000 on a dress, shoes, and a purse for one of her events once. She's far from stupid and $13k to her would be like $13 to me so why not buy nice things?


----------



## chefhow

GouRiki said:


> I don't really understand you're point but it's a personal opinion on how we choose to think of other people's actions, I agree with Renegade and anyone else who who happens to believe that.
> 
> I would not hesitate to call people like that stupid, not just in car audio but other areas as well.
> 
> But I think your point is more along the lines of, these people who are willing to not care about anything and make it rain dough are helping the industry/economy and therefore are somewhat necessary and they are people so they can do whatever they want.
> 
> I'd actually call the vast majority of people around the world stupid, including myself, but that's just how it is. People have their strong points and not so strong points.
> 
> 
> I have been lurking this thread since it started btw, just never posted. It's entertaining.


My point is its none of our business to tell people how to spend their money and its even worse when you call them stupid for it. 

I would never consider spending $100 for a shirt, $250 on a pair of jeans or even more on a pair of Nike sneakers, but the people who can afford to buy CM products spend more than that on a pair of socks (or at least they can afford to). Who are we to tell people that they are stupid or idiots for doing for spending their money in a brick and mortar car audio shop and then spending even more on the install supporting a small biz in a community that supports employees? 

Do I advocate what CM is doing? NO but if people are willing to buy the marketing hype than more power to them and the retailers who make a profit off of it.


----------



## GouRiki

I understand it's none of anyone's business to tell people how to do anything they choose to do, not just spending money.

I'm also free to call someone an idiot if they spend $5000 on something when they could have spent $500 or even $1k on something does the same exact thing. 

I understand your point. I use to collect Nike SB's and I have many that just sit around, maybe worn 3 times in the past 3 years. Is there any point? Not really I could get a pair of nice shoes for $100-200 but I chose to buy those because I wanted to. I'm not really arguing with you, I share the same idea that it's none of my business what other people do but likewise I can say pretty much whatever I want to say about that, whether or not you or someone else disagrees with my opinion.

It's human nature. Just like you say "its none of our business to tell people how to spend their money", it's also none of our business to tell people how to express their opinions.

I understand what you're saying too Buick. $13k is a lot to some people and nothing to others but it does get to a point where you're just wasting money for no reason. What if she found a dress that cost $75K and looked exactly like the one that was $13K? Even if it still doesn't affect the person financially either way, wouldn't you think it would be a waste of money if she went with the $75K one? Dresses are can be expensive though, $13K doesn't really seem outrageous.

But to each their own.


----------



## TrickyRicky

I guess since all the celeb's are rocking them we all should too? Guido, you keep posting cheap/false advertisement here on DIYMA. 

This should be a good reason to ban you, lol. Wait I dont care.


So I guess Guido fell for the titianium bracelets that give the user energy when wearing them? Because all the TOP athletes where using them, it must mean it works....WRONG you f*cking idiot. Your just like the other 75% of Americans....ignorant as f*ck.




_My statistics are made up and am not liable for any misleading or misunderstading._ I had to throw that in before Guido takes it and starts doing research on how stupid he is.


----------



## 07azhhr

I also wonder why if this product is sooooooooo gooooooooooood then why can you not find anybody selling these products besides on ebay? While ebay is not exactly like a flea market, the things that only get sold on ebay seem like flea market items and these CM products seem only to be for sale on ebay or another online auction site. HMMMMMMMMM.

To the whole rapper/rich person thing. Those guys and gals are paying 100's of thousands of dollars on their cars mostly because the more they spend the higher their baller status goes. So after spending $250k on a car are you going to pay someone to install a $1k stereo system in it. That would lower their baller status big time. IMHO they are just looking for the most expensive system they can find to keep upping that baller status.

In short it is all about baller status for them and he/she who spends the most has the most baller status. :laugh:


----------



## daveds50

subwoofery said:


> Why? Because Vance did not test a few subwoofer brands from around the world that were considered (and still are) SQ subs: Phase Linear Aliante, Alto Mobile Falstaff, Focal Utopia and K2P, Ground Zero Audio GZUW, Dynaudio MW190, A/D/S RS, Audio Development, Eclipse Ten TI (TC Sounds LMS based), Hertz ML (free air version), JBL Gti, Magnat, Micro Precision, OZ Audio Matrix Elite, etc... I'm sure I'm still missing a few.


 exactly my point. 
kinda like testing a Boss, Crunch, White Van, etc, against say... a JL Audio W7. well, not that extreme. 

but then again, people local around me wont have a clue what those are that you mention... they are too busy researching "5000 Watt" amps for $149. :laugh: 

what i want to see, is the 2012 testing against top level equipment... not something 6 years ago. while i am sure the CM is a good sub, a 2005-2006 comparison is no longer valid, as even some of the companies that were in the comparison have improved equipment. 



BuickGN said:


> My ex spent $13,000 on a dress, shoes, and a purse for one of her events once. She's far from stupid and $13k to her would be like $13 to me so why not buy nice things?


 which confirms my thoughts... i dont understand women at all... not even my own wife.  

if i had $250k to blow, i woulddnt have it anymore. none would get spent on audio though, but i would add a Noble M400 in my race car stable, and ZR1 Corvette for a daily driver.  

but anyway... back to the subject... amplifiers... no response from Guido there.


----------



## BuickGN

chefhow said:


> My point is its none of our business to tell people how to spend their money and its even worse when you call them stupid for it.
> 
> I would never consider spending $100 for a shirt, $250 on a pair of jeans or even more on a pair of Nike sneakers, but the people who can afford to buy CM products spend more than that on a pair of socks (or at least they can afford to). Who are we to tell people that they are stupid or idiots for doing for spending their money in a brick and mortar car audio shop and then spending even more on the install supporting a small biz in a community that supports employees?
> 
> Do I advocate what CM is doing? NO but if people are willing to buy the marketing hype than more power to them and the retailers who make a profit off of it.


I still have my $400-$600 jeans from the old days packed away probably forever. Can't bring myself to sell them because I know I would never buy another pair. Most were given to me but still not something I would be interested in today but I completely understand the people that buy that kind of stuff, it's their business. As long as the family is not going hungry to pay for ridiculously priced stuff, why would I care about what others spend their money on. 

Some consider JL or Dynaudio overpriced. I will continue buying their products because I consider them worth every penny. If I had a $1m yearly income, the $2k price tag on a CM sub would not stop me from buying it if I thought it was even 5% better than a $500 sub. But at my income level now, the price would stop me from buying it. It's all relative. Is a Lambo 5x better than a Vette? Nope, performance wise it's not much better or even worse depending on which Lambo and which Vette but I would own one in a heartbeat if I could afford it. 

Obviously the CM amps are a rip off, I doubt anyone is arguing that. The sub is an unknown. It looks to be one of the best of it's day. It might very well compete with the top subs of today. Likely not worth the asking price but that could depend on the individual. Maybe we can get one on the Klippel and see if the rated 32mm xmax is legit. My guess is it's better than average, maybe even high end but it's not going to compete with the best of today's subs.


----------



## Woosey

ignore


----------



## The Baron Groog

*Re: Crtical mass UL12 is the BEST Subwoofer in the World*



SQ Stang said:


> My question is this? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
> 
> If Van dude is the author of speaker building..why is it that if you do a simple search on Google for speaker building books, you will find more than 20 of them. Next is this...I have a 1964 Thunderbird which came stock with two speakers..one up front, and one in back...I am guessing by your logic that Van Dude invented the speaker, that these in my car are just figments of my defication.
> 
> Dude, seriously. Your arguments have too many holes to hold any sort of water. But just to double check, I have emailed a good friend of mine, Mr. David Navone to see if Van dude is the originator of the speaker. After all, Autosound 2000 is Dave Navone's baby.
> 
> Well, I hope you have a great day. I will post up the reply here when Dave responds. he is a very busy man..so don't expect it soon.


He just copied Vance's wiki page, Vance Dickason - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , what he says about Vance is true.

However what he says about the review isn't, Vance did not write all of it, he seemingly did the kilppel test and the subjective side was left to Casey Thorson, former tech editor, CAE:



Guido said:


> Here's what we had to say at the time when we evaluated the woofer: "It almost pains me when I have only good things to say about a product after testing. Don't get me wrong; it's not because I'm some kind of scrooge and take glee in writing a damning review. Rather, when a product is this good you're naturally tempted to doubt your own evaluation process. After all, for the benefit of the consumer, your job as a reviewer is to reveal anything negative in a product. The UL12 really doesn't have any drawback in terms of speaker performance." —*Casey Thorson, former tech editor, CAE*


Guido, read what you posted, Vance did not write the full review for the UL12, it was Casey Thorson who wrote the words you claim Vance to have written.

All reviews are relative and subjective, read this review on some Alpine SXE-1750s, they score very well for some £30 speakers-but trust me, I sell them as an absolute last option for the cheapos, advising them to go for something better, and wouldn't even consider fitting them in my car:
Alpine SXE-1725S - Speakers - Talk Audio Online Car Audio Magazine & Forum - Talk Audio Online Car Audio Magazine & Forum - Magazine

Journalists don't make a habit of biting the hand that feeds them. I've seen amazing reviews for products that clearly don't deserve them, poor reviews for products that should have done better.

However, all of the arguing over the UL12 is moot-the topic was/is their amps which are massively over priced and as this is a DIY forum, with people aiming to get the best result from the least cost, people should be aware of the discrepancy and I'm sure that they get that point!


----------



## Renegadesoundwave

*Re: Crtical mass UL12 is the BEST Subwoofer in the World*



The Baron Groog said:


> He just copied Vance's wiki page, Vance Dickason - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , what he says about Vance is true.
> 
> However what he says about the review isn't, Vance did not write all of it, he seemingly did the kilppel test and the subjective side was left to Casey Thorson, former tech editor, CAE:
> 
> 
> 
> Guido, read what you posted, Vance did not write the full review for the UL12, it was Casey Thorson who wrote the words you claim Vance to have written.
> 
> All reviews are relative and subjective, read this review on some Alpine SXE-1750s, they score very well for some £30 speakers-but trust me, I sell them as an absolute last option for the cheapos, advising them to go for something better, and wouldn't even consider fitting them in my car:
> Alpine SXE-1725S - Speakers - Talk Audio Online Car Audio Magazine & Forum - Talk Audio Online Car Audio Magazine & Forum - Magazine
> 
> Journalists don't make a habit of biting the hand that feeds them. I've seen amazing reviews for products that clearly don't deserve them, poor reviews for products that should have done better.
> 
> However, all of the arguing over the UL12 is moot-the topic was/is their amps which are massively over priced and as this is a DIY forum, with people aiming to get the best result from the least cost, people should be aware of the discrepancy and I'm sure that they get that point!




remark about Journalists not wanting to bite the hands that feed them is so true. I stopped believing magazine reviews years ago . Even certain Car forums allow "special" guests to have multiple accounts to make "positive " comments and threads etc


----------



## daveds50

*Re: Crtical mass UL12 is the BEST Subwoofer in the World*



The Baron Groog said:


> All reviews are relative and subjective,


 he does not get that... at all... at this point, his posts are just spam. 

nor does he understand that this thread has nothing to do with speakers. so he shoulddnt spam this thread. 

Guido, this is a thread about CM amplifiers. spam somewhere else. or talk about their amplifiers. i know... you are going to post some "expert review", as you dont know anything about them yourself. 

go ahead... i'll rip it apart. i am very familiar with the boards they buy.


----------



## chefhow

^^^^^ STOP POSTING ALL THIS ********!! It has nothing to do with what the OP was discussing. If you have pertinent info about CM amps then fire away, otherwise the cut and paste over and over is just a waste of space.


----------



## putergod

Guido... you freaking retard! You are posting the same ******** post after post after post! No one gives a damn about CA&E... They have ALWAYS been biased towards their advertisers!!! DUH!!! No one gives a DAMN what they say! And you look like a fool with nothing at all to say when all you can do is repost the same damn pics over and over and over.. that mean NOTHING!

Sheesh!! Get a LIFE!


----------



## The Baron Groog

*Re: Crtical mass UL12 is the BEST Subwoofer in the World*



Guido said:


> Thats why I say that Vance Tested it!
> The Review was made the same way all reviews were made in Car Audio and Electronics for over 20 years. And so was the point system.
> And in that same point system with Vance TESTING the UL12, The UL12 is #1
> 
> 
> If you read the Pages below that Vance wrote you will see why its such a great SUBWOOFER. The point system was done the same way it was done for all other subwoofers tested.


I read the article, was interesting, thank you.

What the article actually said seems to have escaped you. 

Look at the top of the article and it says it was written by Vance Dickinson *AND* Casey Thorson.

Without asking Vance or Casey who wrote what exactly we cannot be 100% sure who wrote what, but we can be sure Casey wrote this:



Casey Thorson said:


> Here's what we had to say at the time when we evaluated the woofer: "It almost pains me when I have only good things to say about a product after testing. Don't get me wrong; it's not because I'm some kind of scrooge and take glee in writing a damning review. Rather, when a product is this good you're naturally tempted to doubt your own evaluation process. After all, for the benefit of the consumer, your job as a reviewer is to reveal anything negative in a product. The UL12 really doesn't have any drawback in terms of speaker performance." —Casey Thorson, former tech editor, CAE


On that basis it is more than likely Casey wrote all of the subjective testing-you can even see that he had been waiting 18 months for the woofer and even had one prematurely sent to his office. Now would Vance have an office at CAE or would it be their tech editor Caset Thorson?

Now to your point about the subjective testing:



Guido said:


> The point system was done the same way it was done for all other subwoofers tested.


-I'd bet that each subjective test was not done in the same way:

1. He says he tested this in his '99 4Runner-were all subs in this "test" tested in the same vehicle-a test that spanned over 1 year? How many different cars? Editors?
2. He says he grabbed a C2K9.0XD to test on-this would imply he doesn't have a "test bench" so all subjective tests are carried out as objectively as possible-ie same car, same amp, same source, same CD etc. Without all the other variables being the same any subjective "test" is null and void.
3. He says the SPL response was measured in a Ford F350 Supercab-we're all aware cabin gain varies from vehicle to vehicle-it doesn't say any of the other subs were tested in these vehicles-anything with a smaller interior would give a higher cabin gain, larger vehicle smaller gain, so again no continuity of testing = **** subjective tests which hold less water than your ball-sack. Even knowing you're testing a $2k sub will influence your findings-try googling "audiophile banana".

And finally-THE SUBWOOFER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD! PLEASE STOP POSTING ABOUT IT AND CRAWL OFF BACK UNDER THE BRIDGE YOU CAME FROM!


----------



## Renegadesoundwave

some serious ladies "handbags" been waived around !


----------



## ChrisB

My only question in all of this is does ANYONE have proof that Critical Mass has done anything more than taking a generic build house amplifier product, possibly upgrading certain components, then marking up the price 1000x?

OTOH, I still think the UL subs are a masterpiece. Would I pay MSRP for one? NO, but they are one of the few examples that actually have the appearance of technology to back up their high price. I could say something about a certain other speaker company selling a 80s technology, $35 per unit in bulk, stamped steel driver for nearly $350 by comparing it to Dynaudio and Morel, but I won't go there.


----------



## Richv72

chefhow said:


> ^^^^^ STOP POSTING ALL THIS ********!! It has nothing to do with what the OP was discussing. If you have pertinent info about CM amps then fire away, otherwise the cut and paste over and over is just a waste of space.


Of course hes wasting space because by him cutting and pasting the same thing over and over, he is hoping to shut this thread down. Im guessing critical mass is scared of this thread, the truth sometimes is ugly. They saw it has not lost any steam, so they send in guido to sabatoge it. Guido can't even defend the amps because he knows that pictures dont lie, and critical mass does.


----------



## thehatedguy

Guidom stop the spamming or you will be gone for a bit. I cleaned the posts up.


----------



## Renegadesoundwave

ChrisB said:


> My only question in all of this is does ANYONE have proof that Critical Mass has done anything more than taking a generic build house amplifier product, possibly upgrading certain components, then marking up the price 1000x?
> 
> OTOH, I still think the UL subs are a masterpiece. Would I pay MSRP for one? NO, but they are one of the few examples that actually have the appearance of technology to back up their high price. I could say something about a certain other speaker company selling a 80s technology, $35 per unit in bulk, stamped steel driver for nearly $350 by comparing it to Dynaudio and Morel, but I won't go there.



You start on Morel and i will ask god to have every bird in the world **** on your head !


----------



## Renegadesoundwave

ChrisB said:


> My only question in all of this is does ANYONE have proof that Critical Mass has done anything more than taking a generic build house amplifier product, possibly upgrading certain components, then marking up the price 1000x?
> 
> OTOH, I still think the UL subs are a masterpiece. Would I pay MSRP for one? NO, but they are one of the few examples that actually have the appearance of technology to back up their high price. I could say something about a certain other speaker company selling a 80s technology, $35 per unit in bulk, stamped steel driver for nearly $350 by comparing it to Dynaudio and Morel, but I won't go there.



You start in Morel and i will ask god to have every bird in the world **** on your head


----------



## Richv72

ChrisB said:


> My only question in all of this is does ANYONE have proof that Critical Mass has done anything more than taking a generic build house amplifier product, possibly upgrading certain components, then marking up the price 1000x?
> 
> OTOH, I still think the UL subs are a masterpiece. Would I pay MSRP for one? NO, but they are one of the few examples that actually have the appearance of technology to back up their high price. I could say something about a certain other speaker company selling a 80s technology, $35 per unit in bulk, stamped steel driver for nearly $350 by comparing it to Dynaudio and Morel, but I won't go there.


What do you think this whole thread is about, exactly what you just said in the first sentence. I mean isnt that enough?


----------



## ATOMICTECH62

Back on the subject.
The Memphis 16-st1000d,Directed 1100d,Crossfire bmf1000d and the JBL bp1200.1 were for the most part the same amp.They were all made in the same factory.All have the numbers ground off the ic's and have B52 and F16 stickers on them.
There are some differences.Some have sealed pots some dont.Some have T0247 mosfets some use TO220's.Mosfets are mounted vertical on the Memphis,horizontal on the rest.Some use bigger transformers to get a few hundred more watts.(The transformers is the main part that dictates how much power the amp can produce,then they match it with the correct type of mosfets ETC...)
My point is all these amps are basically the same give or take a few hundred watts but each company put their own twist on the design to give them personality.
CM didnt even care about that.
The Critical Mass and the Soundmagus are the same amplifiers.
Period.
Send them to me and I will bench test them.


----------



## chefhow

Guido, this thread was about amplifiers "made" by CM that were rebadges of cheap Chinese amps. It wasnt a thread about the UL12 and you were trying to make it that by constantly posting up an article that didn't need to be posted over and over again. Find an article praising the merits of a CM amp, any one from the series mentioned, and we should all apologize to you. We (you and I) won't find one because they don't and won't ever exist. It's ok to be wrong but don't defend a point with redirection and deception, it won't fly here an you will be called to the mat for it.


----------



## diatribe

It's pretty obvious to everyone that this thread is about CM and their policy of using knock-off amplifiers and charging 1,000% percent over the competitions exact same boards.

This thread is not about the UL12. It is a nice subwoofer, anyone saying different has no experience with it. Is it worth retail? Well that's up to the individual. I would agree that it is a $900-$1,100 sub, but that's just me.

One thing to note about the Car Audio review that you keep bringing up is that they changed their testing methodology and scoring on subwoofers around that time. At one time 100 was a perfect score, then it was changed to a smaller number. I can't remember exactly what it was, but I remember back when it was written to make a note of it.

But again, we are not talking about the UL12. So please refrain from repeating yourself. That is why you keep getting slammed and loosing credibility on this forum.


----------



## chefhow

You keep posting the same thing over and over pasting the only review and article about any CM products that was ever written.

Show me an article/review/write up about a $1000 CM component set, or a $300 coaxial or a $5000 amplifier or $1800 cross over/ line driver. I'll bet there isn't one and if there is it wasn't favorable. Quit spewing the same crap over and over, the reason the Mod deleted your posts is because they were repeated several times, that isnt necessary and was a waste of space. The more argumentative you become the nastier the natives will get, a d trust me they havent even begun to get nasty yet. 

Good luck to you, at this point you'll need it.


----------



## The Baron Groog

Wie ist Ihr Deutsch? Dies ist der beste Subwoofer der Welt, wenn im Jahr 2010 getestet:
http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/documents/news/2010_06_CarHiFi_T2D212.pdf

Point being-different magazine, different results. BTW I would trust Car Hifi reviews more than Car Audio Magazine-even if they are a bit harder to read....


----------



## The Baron Groog

double post


----------



## for2nato

My thoughts are simple. And they revolve around one question. Is the soundmagus amp any good? Its obvious that they are at the least of the same design and produced in the same build house. Sooooooo, if they are of good quality, then the CM amp is simply overpriced. Nothing against them for trying to make a buck. But information runs this world we live in. If you have it, then just buy the sm version and cm wont be in business long. Thats the nature of capitalism. Price yourself out, and your simply out.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk


----------



## thehatedguy

I told him...he's gone now.


----------



## The Baron Groog

Wow, he really is gone, not even a trace

Now, when you have time:
Tony Blair
Gordon Brown
HM Revenue and Customs


----------



## thehatedguy

I told him to stop, but he kept on trying to be cute. Out he went.


----------



## Woosey

The Baron Groog said:


> Wie ist Ihr Deutsch? Dies ist der beste Subwoofer der Welt, wenn im Jahr 2010 getestet:
> http://www.rockfordfosgate.com/documents/news/2010_06_CarHiFi_T2D212.pdf
> 
> Point being-different magazine, different results. BTW I would trust Car Hifi reviews more than Car Audio Magazine-even if they are a bit harder to read....


sehr gut!


----------



## The Baron Groog

Woosey said:


> sehr gut!


leider ist mein Deutsch schlecht!


----------



## Richv72

Ok I have cracked open my Critical Mass ula-800v.2, It looks very similar to many of the small 4 channel amps as well. The caps are made by a company called acon, not sure if you can see them clearly enough in my pics.

















Took me a little while to get these posted because i had lost my torx head bit for the amp case and had to remember to buy a new one.


----------



## putergod

At least they took the time to label the board on that one.... that's gotta be worth $5k... Right?


----------



## Lou

what i would like to kow is,where are all the white women at. sorry guys,i had to,this thing of car audio is supposed to be fun,not argumentative so i was trrying to make some laughter


----------



## Richv72

Lou said:


> what i would like to kow is,where are all the white women at. sorry guys,i had to,this thing of car audio is supposed to be fun,not argumentative so i was trrying to make some laughter


So do you do this in every thread or did you choose this one for some reason?


----------



## Lou Frasier2

I usually don't but because things seem to be so uptight here in this thread I thought I would try to lighten them up


----------



## rc10mike

Lou Frasier2 said:


> I usually don't but because things seem to be so uptight here in this thread I thought I would try to lighten them up


Multiple names FTL...


----------



## Lou Frasier2

I couldn't remember my password and I am on the road so I re registered on my second email account


----------



## 07azhhr

I like that "quality control" sticker placement. I know I am having an bit of an ocd moment here but that sticker is: 

1. placed on a cap???
and 
2. not even placed on straight. 

Just seems that something that is used as a sign of quality control would be placed with some sort of quality lol.


----------



## lynwoodhansen

just waiting for that troll to try and rebutt the cold hard facts above with some more caca laden drivel?


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

You guys know what's so awesomely STUPID about this thread??? 

Nobody really knows, yet, it trudges on.... Whos got experience with CM amps? I mean up close and personal? Who is running them currently?

Where in OTHER threads, where the amps are actually pretty widely used, people ACTUALLY USING the product, get shut down when the "naesayers" chime in.... 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ipment-my-car/133045-zuki-amps-wattage-2.html


Say whatever you like about Critical Mass, but God forbit you defile Zuki for basically the EXACT same reason.... 


Critical Mass = 10,000watts
Zuki = 10watts

Same difference, different directions.... WTF


----------



## rc10mike

Zuki amps dont cost 10 grand.

The ONLY reason CM exists is to rip off people that dont care they're being ripped off.

They are simply taking advantage of people who think price means everything. Simple as that.

There isnt much else that needs to be said. Its the truth, you know it, I know it, and they know it.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

rc10mike said:


> Zuki amps dont cost 10 grand.


 
No they don't, but what DO they cost for the "wattage" provided... Same difference... 

Stop looking at the trees, and see the forest, Forest...


----------



## Richv72

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> You guys know what's so awesomely STUPID about this thread???
> 
> Nobody really knows, yet, it trudges on.... Whos got experience with CM amps? I mean up close and personal? Who is running them currently?
> 
> Where in OTHER threads, where the amps are actually pretty widely used, people ACTUALLY USING the product, get shut down when the "naesayers" chime in....
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ipment-my-car/133045-zuki-amps-wattage-2.html
> 
> 
> Say whatever you like about Critical Mass, but God forbit you defile Zuki for basically the EXACT same reason....
> 
> 
> Critical Mass = 10,000watts
> Zuki = 10watts
> 
> Same difference, different directions.... WTF


No aaron because zuki is one of a kind, not just rebadged junk.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

Richv72 said:


> No aaron because zuki is one of a kind, not just rebadged junk.


Because you now know a lot about Zuki? Like you did CM when you bought the product?

Sucks how you got suckered isn't it... now your mission in life is?


----------



## ChrisB

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> Sucks how you got suckered isn't it... now your mission in life is?


Unfortunately, it happens to a good bit of us at some point in this hobby.

The phases for dealing with getting suckered go along these lines:
1. Lash out on the internet
2. Harass the supporters of the product/vendor/whatever who say you are crazy
3. Lash out some more
4. Harass the followers some more
5. Repeat 1-4 until you grow tired of typing or until it loses entertainment value
6. Get over it and move on with your life because it's just car audio:laugh:


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

ChrisB said:


> Unfortunately, it happens to a good bit of us at some point in this hobby.
> 
> The phases for dealing with getting suckered go along these lines:
> 1. Lash out on the internet
> 2. Harass the supporters of the product/vendor/whatever who say you are crazy
> 3. Lash out some more
> 4. Harass the followers some more
> 5. Repeat 1-4 until you grow tired of typing or until it loses entertainment value
> 6. Get over it and move on with your life because it's just car audio:laugh:


Yep, happens to all of us at some point, some just do it in "grander" ways I suppose... 


The really funny part about all of this is, regardless of the bad press here, it's STILL hype and CM's business model FEEDS on HYPE.... 


So as royally PISSED Rich72 IS, you are simply ADDING to the hype that CM loves to generate... 

They don't car how pissed you are, they don't care what you say about thier product, they've been around since the early 90's, doing the SAME thing... 

They are still makin money... They have to be, there still going...


The more bleeding that happens over the cost vs ouput debate makes me laugh .... 

They aren't marketing the products to "joe shmoe" they are marketing the product to people that DON'T CARE ABOUT MONEY... 

If ANY of you have EVER worked in high end audio, you might understand that a Dr. can walk into a shop, spend 3 days in the listening room and cut a check for 100k$.... I've WATCHED IT HAPPEN.... 

This product isn't being marketed to the guy that has to save to build a system, it's being marketed to the guy that signs a check and hands it over... REGARDLESS OF "QUALITY" some just don't know to care... 


WOn't EVEN get into things like Krell Audio who makes 10k$ home amps that do 50x2....


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## SQ Audi

Funny thing though...this was never a thread about the wattage vs price..it was about the fact that their amps are VERY similar to other amps costing thousands less.

Sounds to me like you have been burned by the output bug. Unfortunately, you get what you pay for most of the times. 

My understanding is that Zuki amplifiers are powerhouses, and that their ratings are dead nuts on. I have had a run in with Milbert BAM235 before and there is no way you could have told me that they were running only 35w per tweeter...

Remember that the efficiency is rated at 1 watt, from 1 meter. In a car, you are hard pressed to be more than 1 meter from your front stage. Why manufacturers believe that wattage is so important is beyond me. 

In the 90's I competed with a TOTAL of 490 watts. I was in the Pro 251-500 class of IASCA. My car (sq car) consistently hit on the Audio Control meter at 133db..with is more output than any SQ car should have. Ask JOwens about it. Loud, clean and imaged. I only had 25w going to my horns. 

Seriously, when poised with the question...which is more desirable?

a) Huge wattage
b) Excellent build quality

I will choose "b" every single time.


Lets face it here. CM's advertizing gurus graduated from the same school as Bose.

Let the wealthy enjoy their systems...just because it is of the highest pricetag, doesn't mean it sounds the best.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

SQ Stang said:


> Funny thing though...this was never a thread about the wattage vs price..it was about the fact that their amps are VERY similar to other amps costing thousands less.
> 
> Sounds to me like you have been burned by the output bug. Unfortunately, you get what you pay for most of the times.
> 
> .


It was a generalization based on the whole of the thread, plenty of other companies use other companies designs... 

If one is getting a 2000% mark-up on "common" goods, more power to them... It's called business... 

I will recall my "Krell" statement earlier... That company builds brick ****houses for amps, no doubt about it, but 10k for a 50x2 amp is ludicris.. is it not? 

Same difference... part of the generalization I keep trying to make, people keep wanting to split hairs

I'm not for or against CM to be perfectly honest, I've had one experience with them and that was my UL12... 

The facts remain that they are slick in what they do, who they market too and how the business is run... They wouldn't STILL be around (burried deep out of the mainstream) after all this time if they wearn't... 



You can make it your mission in life to destroy Critical Mass, but again, fact remains, they don't care and in fact, they likley enjoy the hype... 

Makes all the gangstas wanna buy more...


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## putergod

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> WOn't EVEN get into things like Krell Audio who makes 10k$ home amps that do 50x2....


Woeeeeeeeee betty!
Krell builds some of, if not the, best built home audio equipment in the world! Is it over priced? Some... yes... but not anywhere NEAR the way CM is. At least the Krell stuff is built by THEM, designed by THEM, and built to last 100+ years.


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## putergod

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> I will recall my "Krell" statement earlier... That company builds brick ****houses for amps, no doubt about it, but 10k for a 50x2 amp is ludicris.. is it not?
> 
> Same difference... part of the generalization I keep trying to make, people keep wanting to split hairs


that's a little better... but I still woudln't even remotely put them in the same context.
CM sells "chinese OEM amps" for 100-1000x it's value. The exact same equipment can be had for a couple hundred while they sell it for many grand.

Krell is one of a kind. Very well designed. Very well built. And some of the best sounding gear to ever hit the market. They price it at what they believe their work at designing, building, and marketing their one of a kind product is worth.

These two instances aren't even remotely similar.


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## Richv72

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> Because you now know a lot about Zuki? Like you did CM when you bought the product?
> 
> Sucks how you got suckered isn't it... now your mission in life is?


Wouldnt exactly call this a mission in life, I mean it takes only a couple minutes to post these, I figure a mission in life would take at least a couple hours a day.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

putergod said:


> Woeeeeeeeee betty!
> Krell builds some of, if not the, best built home audio equipment in the world! Is it over priced? Some... yes... but not anywhere NEAR the way CM is. At least the Krell stuff is built by THEM, designed by THEM, and built to last 100+ years.


Once again, a generalzation/comparison based on value/cost...

Not looking at the merrits of the company, you'd be pretty retarded to buy/pay for Krell based on specs alone... 

Yet people do... 

Sent from the other side using mind bullets...(YapaTalk)


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## Richv72

Its more like taking a hyundai and slapping mercedes emblems on it, but its still a hyundai.


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## putergod

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> Once again, a generalzation/comparison based on value/cost...
> 
> Not looking at the merrits of the company, you'd be pretty retarded to buy/pay for Krell based on specs alone...
> 
> Yet people do...
> 
> Sent from the other side using mind bullets...(YapaTalk)


Well, I've been following Krell since the 80's, and their stuff is top notch with no equal. I would give my left nut for a full Krell system with a rack of amps. Hell, I'd probably let them have the right one too... I don't need anymore kids.

Oh, and Krell doesn't have a 50wpc amp. Their smallest little baby amp outputs 300+. Even their little integrated amp puts out 150wpc (@ 8ohms, double that at 4). Krell doesn't make products for the squimish. The freaking toroidal in their tiny little integrated amp is a big as a baby's head and weighs like 30+lbs. They OVER-engineer, OVER-build, and to SOME, over-price. But honestly, my opinion is that "most" (not all) of their goods are "priced right", considering what you get for the money (except for the 'signal cables'... they are trying to cash in on snake-oil like everyone else, lol).

I'm just saying.. if you want to slam a "high end, over priced, home audio company", Krell was the wrong one. You will not find another product built and engineered to the level of Krell.


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## sqaudi

SQ Stang said:


> Actually, I did judge the USACi contest back in 2008 at Car Toys Tulsa. (Tulsa Invitational) There was a black A4 with Scan tweeters and a UL12 that placed very high...I think won..but I will have to check to make sure.
> 
> I will edit this post if I come across it again.
> 
> I wanted to mention this, but, it wasn't the sub that won the contest for me. The sub sounded nice, but, it was his staging and tonality that won me over in the end.


Thanks SQ Stang. I have not been around the scene for a little while but I thought I would jump in on this one. Yes, my Audi A4 has a Critical Mass UL12 sub in it. It is in a 1cu ft sealed encloser. Its powered by an Audison vrx 1.500 monoblock. The sub is very unique in its build design. It has a carbon fiber cone and a neo magnet that makes the sub extremely lightweight. Because of the light but stiff cone the sub is quick and accurate when put into the right encloser. Most Critical Mass gear is overpriced, overhyped middle of the road gear with a unique marketing campaign. The ul 12 sub is different. We looked at everything available, cost no issue and this sub worked best for this application. Is it the best sub ever made. Well I think its is toward the top of the list. Btw, I have never seen anything that resembles it other in one made by Aura back in the 90's which is still very unique in its own right.


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## tyroneshoes

Im thinking of starting a sub company that sells 10" subs but theyre really 15" called 10"s

Youll never hear a 10 that play lower than mine (cus if you research you will eventually find out its a 15)

Duki subs... be on the lookout 2013


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## sqaudi

I just seen there is two of us on this forum with almost that same screen name. Weird. I hope we don't have almost the same system in our cars that would be really weird.


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## SQ Audi

I actually, I used to be SQ Stang. I now have an A4, much like yours and I will be installing my system in October. I sold my Mustang that we used in the MSE meeting at Mark Eldridge's business location.

Good to see you on here again. I hope you are still running the same equipment. It definitely lit a fire under me. One of the better cars I have judged.

--Joe Wallis


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## spydertune

TrickyRicky said:


> I for one will go with the cheapest.


Which is essentially why almost no car amplifiers with unique technology are built in the US anymore. That isn't a slam, just the reality of the free market.


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## ChrisB

SQ Audi said:


> I actually, I used to be SQ Stang. I now have an A4, much like yours and I will be installing my system in October. I sold my Mustang that we used in the MSE meeting at Mark Eldridge's business location.
> 
> Good to see you on here again. I hope you are still running the same equipment. It definitely lit a fire under me. One of the better cars I have judged.
> 
> --Joe Wallis


Did you jump for joy when you finally got rid of your Stang? I learned, albeit the hard way, that the best day in a Ford vehicle owner's life is the day they get rid of the Ford.:laugh:


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## putergod

ChrisB said:


> Did you jump for joy when you finally got rid of your Stang? I learned, albeit the hard way, that the best day in a Ford vehicle owner's life is the day they get rid of the Ford.:laugh:


As a life long GM fan, I would normally laugh and agree with this statement... But with the current state of affairs, and as a Patriot, I have to defend Ford now (and Dodge/Chrysler).


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## ChrisB

putergod said:


> As a life long GM fan, I would normally laugh and agree with this statement... But with the current state of affairs, and as a Patriot, I have to defend Ford now (and Dodge/Chrysler).


I owned four Ford vehicles in my lifetime, and three were problematic to the point where they left me stranded. Either my 2000 F150 was a fluke, or there was some truth to the rumor that Ford built their trucks better than their cars. Regardless, it is going to take a serous case of amnesia to get me to purchase another Ford product.


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## The Baron Groog

Having owned one Ford I'd NEVER buy another without a lottery win and even then it would be nothing they've made in the last 20 years. 80K TDi needed new turbo and Flywheel-just how many flywheels have you had to replace? None, I'd warrant, as normally they're a none service part (unless YOU screw them up) but Ford's new stealth tax is a dual mass flywheel which costs £1000 to replace when it goes tits up of its own accord-cynical POS...


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## SQ Audi

ChrisB said:


> Did you jump for joy when you finally got rid of your Stang? I learned, albeit the hard way, that the best day in a Ford vehicle owner's life is the day they get rid of the Ford.:laugh:


 I jumped for joy over the loss of the Mustang, but I also jumped for joy when I inherited a 1964 Ford Thunderbird that I am restoring.

Two big differences between the two...

One is a classic

The other was a classic piece of poo poo.


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## sqaudi

Joe, the Audi is still running the same equipment. Critical Mass ul12 sub, scan speak 7" midbass with 400 watts going to each side, scan speak mids and tweets. All amps are still the Audison vrx line. Head unit is still the p9 combo. Did you ever get to see the car when we had the Morel elate 9's in the kickpanels with the Image Dynamic comp 2 neo hlcds? That was install #1 when the Usac finals were held in Omaha.


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## Richv72

For some reason I cant see the cm amp guts anymore in the picture and i cant edit the first post to make sure the link is still the same, I still have the same photbucket account so im not sure why its not showing up. But heres the original picture again







Critical mass ula-2500








Soundmagus 1800w amp, 200 dollar entry level (Chinese made) amp.
Edit: wierd It will not link the ula-2500 guts, even though they are both right next to each other on my photobucket. Not sure why but i had to actually change the name of the photo's file name for it to show up. I find that extremely odd that of all the times I have uploaded a photo, none have disappeared until the most damning one.


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## ATOMICTECH62

TrickyRicky said:


> Here a link on ebay for the Critical Mass on ebay. Look at their advertising, they spent the whole time bragging about their SQ by using celebrities that don't know **** about SQ and NO proof of quality inside (hi-grade components??). Even if it did have hi-grade component that the clone....it still doesnt make it a 5799.00, a 2899.00, a 1500.00 or even a 800.00 amp for that reason.
> 
> 
> OP can you please remove one of those bars that cover up the transistors. I would like to know which output transistors it uses and what brand of capacitors. Take more hi-resolution pics from different angles. I won't be surprise if their low-end components in a "claimed" hi-end audiophile amp.
> 
> I wont be surprise if their components speakers are being made by the same factory as Audiobahn or Shockwave, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> This reminds me of the vid I posted on one of my threads called........AUDIOPHOOLERY... look at the last few minutes of the vid and DAVE is absolutely correct.


I just repaired a UL-A2500.It uses the same IRF640N output mosfets as the Audiopipe version.


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## AlexO

Just bought a ula 800.2 and imediately took the bottom plate off, very disappointed  wish I knew how to post the pics so other people can see before they buy since I couldn't find any internal pics before I bought mine!


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## Richv72

AlexO said:


> Just bought a ula 800.2 and imediately took the bottom plate off, very disappointed  wish I knew how to post the pics so other people can see before they buy since I couldn't find any internal pics before I bought mine!


I have them posted in this thread. Page 11, jeez man thats just one page back.


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## TrickyRicky

AlexO said:


> Just bought a ula 800.2 and imediately took the bottom plate off, very disappointed  wish I knew how to post the pics so other people can see before they buy since I couldn't find any internal pics before I bought mine!


Post #260. I see the high end rail capacitors, lol.


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## AlexO

Wow, I saw the pics from Richv72 & it's the same bs I just bought, I guess I joined this forum a little 2 late. Learned my lesson the hard way.


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## AlexO

Just ran into an American Bass ph41000 wich is the same as the cm ula800 inside and out but it only sells for $175.0 this is critical BS!!!


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## cleansoundz

Subscribed.


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