# Carputer sound advice



## xencloud

*Carputer sound advice *new Q's**

Hi all, to those few who have or might have a carputer setup soon, can you suggest some good sound equipment? Basically, I'm looking for soundcard suggestions, software suites, and an RTA mic.

I've contacted one or two members about this already, thanks for the suggestions, just seeing if anyone can add anything new.

I plan on doing a carputer setup sometime soon, and I'm looking for something that will do all the duties of the behringer combo. I know npdang had said there was some free plugins that do great things, but what program are these plugins for? 

Thanks for any info!


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## cam2Xrunner

I'd use an H701 as the sound card. Run Optical out from the MB of the PC and into the H701, then analog to your amps. 


www.mp3car.com if you haven't seen it yet.


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## WeDgE

cam2Xrunner said:


> I'd use an H701 as the sound card. Run Optical out from the MB of the PC and into the H701, then analog to your amps.



That's what I've done, except optical out from the sound card into the H700.


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## npdang

Budget?

How many input/output channels do you need?

http://www.audiotrak.net/prodigy7.1LT.htm is a pretty good card that would do what you need. The 5.1 or the usb works as well.



Are you looking for a player w/plugins (lots of good freebies), or a standalone console that can handle professional plugins?

Check out some of these links:

http://www.console.jp/eng/
http://www.waves.com/content.asp?id=137
http://www.voxengo.com/product/curveeq/
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63078&perpage=10&pagenumber=1


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## demon2091tb

I would be cool to do a setup with a carputer that can do like a 3way upfront and sub ch's. Basically 4way...but then also have the option to do surround sound in the car....but that would be a little over the top.

4 way option would be nice.


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## xencloud

Definitely would like a 4 way setup. Budget is average for the carputer, and I don't have tons to be spending on high end sound cards that cost 1K+, but I'm definitely willing to spend a few hundred on something good. As far the the sound processing features, I'm not looking into high end suites, but more of something that is functional and can give me some fun stuff to play around with. the 5.1 processing isn't absolutely necessary, but would be nice too. Basically, any cool features are just gravy for me, I'm probably more interested in things that can benefit me SQ wise than video stuff.....

but back to the original questions, I'm not sure on inputs and outputs yet, but I'll be running a three way system up front run off of 2 4 channel amps, one bridged to my midbasses. Then one 5 channel bridged to 3 channels going to my three 10" subs. Then I have my rear deck speakers, not sure if I'm running rear fill or not, and not sure what would power them right now anyway (no amp for them yet).


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## xencloud

BTW, thanks Nguyen!


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## xencloud

I just thought of some other issues too.....since carputers are kinda tricky on good user interfaces that make it easy to control simple functions like volume, track skip, etc., has anyone considered using the carputer as a secondary processor, and using something like an alpine 9860 as the main unit?

I mean, couldn't you use the optical out from the alpine unit to go straight into a soundcard on the carputer, and then use the "kx" software npdang suggested recently as your EQ/crossover/DSP solution? That way, your H/U would still look normal...and controlling everyday functions would be a lot easier.......

Also, I've heard that kx software doesn't work on USB soundcards, so does anyone have any suggestions on a really good internal soundcard to use (must have an optical input)? 

Thanks again for any help!


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## ATB

You couldn't use the 9860 for volume control if you used the optical out. The 9860 can control volume when connected to a H701 processor because there is also an Ai-net connection between the two. The 9860 sends the volume control info over the Ai-net connection.

You could run an optical out from the carputer into a H701 to gain volume control with a 9860, but then of course you loose all of the carputer x-over/eq abilities.


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## ATB

The question of carputer control with a headunit got me thinking...I haven't frequented the carputer boards in a while, but is there not yet a USB remote that has a decent volume knob, track selection buttons, etc? With all of the comunity brain power I have seen creating amazing things like the DQX2496 mods, I am suprized no one has gone this route yet.

Think of a unit with the form factor of a head unit (or at least the front dimensions) that includes volume, track selection, possibly a simple display and has a usb connection to a trunk mounted carputer. Could even get fancy and add a CD/DVD transport with a digial out to same carputer. This is basicaly what you have with a 9860/H701 combo. Anyone for figuring out the Ai-net protocol


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## xencloud

I'm surprised the major players haven't developed something like this already too, these car audio manufacturers need some better thinktanks........


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## xencloud

Well, if not the optical output, how about using the RCA outs from just about any H/U and inputing those into the soundcard? 

I know it wouldn't be as pure of a signal, but would I be able to control the volume from the H/U then? 

You could probably use a mini-DAC later on to clean things up maybe.......


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## 1badrx7

Ok, I finished mine about a week ago, im still molding in the xenarc touchscreen into the dash, but all works well as I tested it. Heres a list of what I bought, how much(shipped to my door) and where.
New ASUS A7N8X-VM - $60, brand new w/ out drives/ EBAY
New Athlong XP-m barton Core 1.45v (45w!) - $70/ Ebay
USED Opus 150w dc-dc power supply - $ 135 - mp3car.com forums
USED Kingston HyperX 512mb pc 2700 - $50/Ebay
New Seagate ata/100 80gb hd - $55 after rebates/ BEST BUY
New Black Xenarc 7" TouchScreen - $375/mp3car forums
new E-mu 0404 sound card, didgital out, imo the best for the money, got rave reviews - $95/online store somewhere
Used Alpine h701 processor and the rux controller / 450/ ebay
Cables/mouse/usb hub/case etc - $200/ assortment of places.
*obviously the alpine processor isnt necessary, this you would have a pretty damn fast computer for less than 1k.
I am still tweaking the interface and getting everything just right, but for now it has been a worthwhile expirence.Than I came here to start deciding on some diy components to replace my rainbow pro cs230 comps. I honestly dont understand how people can believe this is so hard to accomplish. I am 17 (strict budget, 25 hour work weeks, straight a student in hs) and have managed to put it all together. Its not really tricky at all, just takes time and adustment, the same which I hear for diy components. Now only if someone could help me pair of the lpg 26na tweeters with a good driver for my 2way setup, i was thinking excel but no one replied in my previous thread of a reccomended driver with less than 2.75" mounting depth. In the end im glad i did the carpc, and its so much more fluxable than my alpine cda-9853 which is for sale now. Anyways, if you have any questions i would be more than happy to answer them.


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## 1badrx7

Optical output is HIGHLY RECCOMENDED for good quality sound and no engine whine. You can always control the volume through the wave slider on the pc, I really would not suggest using rca in this situation or you will kick your self later for not using optical wires.



xencloud said:


> Well, if not the optical output, how about using the RCA outs from just about any H/U and inputing those into the soundcard?
> 
> I know it wouldn't be as pure of a signal, but would I be able to control the volume from the H/U then?
> 
> You could probably use a mini-DAC later on to clean things up maybe.......


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## xencloud

But the problem is the interface with the PC. You can get something like a powermate controller, or you can use touchscreen and use an app like centrafuse, but the interface still isn't as quick and easy as buttons and knobs on an H/U. 

Also, I'd really like to be able to load discs and mem. sticks from the dash location. Basically, if it costs me a very small amount of SQ for usability and an easier interface, then I'm all for it. Any suggestions on how to remedy this interface problem?

ps-what's the speed of that Athlon XP processor? I am looking for a powerful platform to run everything on for a reasonable cost, nothing cutting edge, but not the low end either.........I'm a systems admin by trade, so I'm not a computer noobie, I just deal more with the server world........

Also, why'd you get the Alpine H701?!? You have a carputer! It's a much more powerful tool with the right app........


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## demon2091tb

i'm sure theres gotta be an easy easy way of simply making a CD drive that you could put in under the touch screen, as well as some type of volume knobs....my SB audigy 2 p on my computer has an independant external volume control.

I'd say there should be some kind of say player....not like a slide out rom drive, but more like an insertable CD hole to keep things clean, that could go just under the touchscreen.

something like this kind of CD drive. Granted i don't like the look of it, but just the insert hole.....not like the motorized faceplates.









But simply like a CD insert hole and a light on it, or whatever you wanted. With mabey some type of rotarty volume control directly connected to the sound card, or carputer outputs.

Couldn't be that hard. 

I would see the H/C701 combo as really the easiest way to control the volume as well as flexability in xover options and stuff on the fly....With this combo you could have the screen, the controller right under it, and then say the cd driver right between the two, or under the controller, all mounted together or near each other....or whatever....


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## 1badrx7

I think you looking to much into the interface, you touch one button, the app loads and you have sub folders to scroll through, than the volume is controlled by the rux controller from my alpine processor. For cds you could always mold a cd-rom drive in the dash or glovebox maybe? Bought the alpine because of the doly digital surrourd, I heard great things about it, and alot of members on mp3car.com are using it. Plus I am looking for an optimum setup for SQ. I am using the athlon xp-m 2400+, very very efficient and very low amount of heat, perfect for this type of setup. No problems on boot, everything is very quick and responsive, no complaints.


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## xencloud

I get what you're saying, but molding a drive/volume knob into the dash is so much more work than getting an H/U to work with the computer, and then just having the 1 DIN Xenarc screen flip out whenever you want to use the computer functions. 

I still don't see the need for the H701, computers do dolby digital surround processing and everything the H701 can do, and more.....


ps-Also, I consider the interface the number ONE issue with this setup! It's what I'll be using day in and day out, so it's gotta be quick and easy, just like an H/U is. But I want the carputer functions for when I want to do that stuff, but having the screen hideaway when I'm not using it would be nice too......


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## 1badrx7

true, the xenarc motorized runs for a cool $450 which isnt exactly chump change. Hmmm I was unaware you could do everything via a computer as the h701, this includes eq and x-over points? Didnt know time alignment was possible as well. Might have to consider selling the processor now.


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## 1badrx7

found this link over at mp3car.com, explains the differences between external processors/eq/x-overs/ vs software for the computer, very interesting. Seems that the pc is "junk" for fine tuning..
http://mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=63189&highlight=h701

through a couple of other searches, external processing is HEAVILY favored over using software with a computer (limit software availability is also a factor), but maybe the h701 was overboard? I really am now considering selling it and buying a burr brown...


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## ATB

I think what was implied was that automatically tuning with software is "junk" and that you will always have to fine tune by hand, not that using a pc for eq/x-over/ta/etc is inherently bad. With the right software, the PC platform has the horsepower to be the more tweakable option.


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## xencloud

I think you read that wrong. They didn't say it was junk for the actual tuning, I think he says that letting a computer make adjustments to your system is "junk". He says you have to tune by ear to see what sounds right to you......which I believe is good, but a combination of science and personal taste is the best combo IMO......


<EDIT>^Sorry, didn't see your post, yea, what you said! lol


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## 1badrx7

good call, alot cheaper than my $450 alpine unit, which is a PITA to configure, especially w.out speakers  . Anyone have any links to websites that illustrate how to fine tune your systems, i get the xover part, but am unsure on how to tune all the bands, and confused on TA  . Hopefully the seas excel and lpg 26na will mate up well together.


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## xencloud

Well, back to my question about the H/U.....if I run the RCA outs from the H/U into the sound card of my carputer, will I retain all of the controls of the H/U? (ie. volume, skip track, etc.)


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## npdang

Measurements are not the end all of tuning... but they get you up and running FAR quicker Imo than just going it by ear alone. Once you have it tuned "on paper", it's much easier and quicker to begin tuning.

The problem isn't that measurements are useless, but that most people including myself don't understand enough to take all encompassing measurements. Knowing just the frequency response at the listener position doesn't really tell you all that's going on.


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## npdang

xencloud said:


> Well, back to my question about the H/U.....if I run the RCA outs from the H/U into the sound card of my carputer, will I retain all of the controls of the H/U? (ie. volume, skip track, etc.)


Yes.


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## xencloud

Thanks, I think that will solve a lot of my problems. Hopefuly I can remedy the SQ disadvantage with some other device. 

Also, with this method, will I be able to still use the sound processing/EQ/crossover capabilities of the computer, and just the signal from the H/U?

Also, you're right about all the factors that affect SQ, and I'm nowhere near as knowledgable as you are. I think you just have to get everything up and running, and then take the tuning one step at a time, learning along the way and incorporating new things you learn.......


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## xencloud

An additonal question for you guys 

While shopping for an H/U for this type of application, it would be better if it was cheaper (not the cheapest, just cheaper :>), since it's basically just going to be used as the interface.......

since I won't be using it for anything but a signal, my priorities are dash integration (being able to match amber lighting), MP3 capability, memory stick slot, and a quality signal! DVD capability would be a big plus, but that's unavailable for most units, so I guess it's not absolutely necessary

I was looking at the Clarion DXZ655MP, and of course the Alpine 9860 comes to mind, but the output voltage seems low on those. If I was running the RCA output right to my computer for processing, would the output voltage matter? Or would it be more important to put a line driver after the computer processes everything? 

Also, if you know of any other HU's to suggest for this concept, please fire away! Thanks!


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## 1badrx7

I have a alpine cda-9853 for sale, 10 hours of use, mint mint condition.


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## xencloud

bump for one more question:

I've heard about this kx project driver for use with some common soundcards. Would that software be able to do some of the things that the project on diyaudio did?


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## technobug

I've been tossing this idea around in my head for a few weeks. HU w/ optical out to a carputer.

Here is something that I found that may help the gain control issue.
http://creative.com/products/product.asp?category=1&subcategory=208&product=14065 

What I found interesting was that there is a remote for the volume control.

The relay box is intended to mount in a drive bay. But I was thinking that maybe with a little modding, it can be mounted (or just parts of it like the IR sensor) in the dash area somewhere. Power is taken from the PC so the relay box can be powered by a carputer. The remote also can handle track skip and what not.


SPECIFICATIONS

Technical Specifications

* 24-bit Analog-to-Digital conversion of analog inputs at 96kHz sample rate
* 24-bit Digital-to-Analog conversion of digital sources at 96kHz to analog 7.1 speaker output
* 24-bit Digital-to-Analog conversion of stereo digital sources at 192kHz to stereo output
* 16-bit to 24-bit recording sampling rates: 8, 11.025, 16, 22.05, 24, 32, 44.1, 48 and 96kHz
* ASIO 2.0 support at 16-bit/44.1kHz, 16-bit/48kHz, 24-bit/44.1kHz 24-bit/48kHz and 24-bit/96kHz with direct monitoring
* Enhanced SoundFont support at up to 24-bit resolution

Audio Performance (Rated Output @ 2Vrms)

* Signal-to-Noise Ratio (20kHz Low-pass filter, A-Weighted)
o Stereo Output: 109dB
o Front and Rear Channels: 109dB
o Center, Subwoofer and Side Channels: 109dB
* Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise at 1kHz (20kHz Low-pass filter) = 0.004%
* Frequency Response (-3dB, 24-bit/96kHz input ) = <10Hz to 46kHz
* Frequency Response (-3dB, 24-bit/192kHz input) = <10Hz to 88kHz (Stereo only)

On-Board Connectivity

* FlexiJack (Performing a 3-in-1 function, Digital I/O1 / Line In / Microphone) via 3.50mm mini jack
* Line level out (Front / Rear / Side / Center / Subwoofer) via 3.50mm mini jacks
* AUX_IN line-level analog input via 4-pin Molex connector on card
* One AD_Link (26 pin) connector for linking to the X-Fi I/O Console (upgrade option)

I/O Drive Connectivity

* Two RCA jacks for coaxial SPDIF input and output
* Two RCA jacks for Auxiliary input
* Two optical connectors for optical SPDIF input and output
* Two mini MIDI female connectors for MIDI input and output
* Headphone output and volume control via 6.35 mm (1/4-inch) stereo jack
* Shared line-level analog Line/Microphone input via 6.35 mm (1/4-inch) stereo jack

1 Supports SPDIF Out compressed ac3 signal or PCM for Stereo Digital Speaker. Also supports SPDIF In with Creative Digital I/O Module (sold separately).



My question regarding the whole setup is boot time.

Isn't it gonna suck to have to wait for the puter to boot everytime you start the car? What is the boot time anyway? And once the puter boots, you still have to open whatever program that you are using for DSP right? Seems like you'll already be where ever you need to be by the time sound comes out the speakers.


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## af22

dont forget turning off the computer too.... you might have to wait for it to shut down before you turn off the car completely.

but i'd try using the "hibernate" feature, if you dont see it hold down shift when you at the shut-down menu.


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## xencloud

boot and shutdown is not really that big of an issue: boot up times are less than 30 seconds when the system is optimized. Also, with the p/s's you can buy now, you don't have to shut down the computer.....go look at the p/s's on mp3car.com forums. You can set it to automatically start shutting down when you turn the car off (draws from your battery for a little while). Actually, you can adjust it to stay on for 20 min. or so in hibernation when the key is removed so that for those quick trips into the store, the computer is all ready to go when you get back in the car...no boot times. After 20 min., it automatically begins the shutdown routine. 


I was wondering about the DSP program(s) issue, I'm sure you can adjust them to automatically start up when the computer boots. I'll have to check on that....


Thanks for the link on that product Technobug, looks very interesting, ans could definitely help if you wanted to run optical to the carputer. I still think I'd want to be able to use my volume knob though, so RCA's might be the only way to keep gain control......(with a SQ penalty of course)


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## WeDgE

xencloud said:


> I was wondering about the DSP program(s) issue, I'm sure you can adjust them to automatically start up when the computer boots. I'll have to check on that....



Yup, just put the program shortcut in the start folder.


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## xencloud

Yea, but will those programs automatically load the settings that you adjusted, and begin processing the signal from the H/U?


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## WeDgE

Yes...

Why would you want the signal chain to be: HU ---> CarPC

Why not: CarPC ---> HU

?



Why use a HU at all??


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## npdang

You can always program a script to automatically setup and run any programs you need at startup.


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## xencloud

^omg, please read the rest of this thread.....lol


Anyway, you'd want an H/U b/c you'd want some better functionality for your day-to-day audio controls. There's no easy solution for loading a CD from the dash, adjusting volume, and skipping tracks on a carputer.....

you have apps like Centrafuse which make it a little easier for volume, but switching between discs, tracks, etc and loading discs is still a pain. 

And yes, I prefer CD's over trying to navigate through folders to find my music files.......plus if I want to skip the H/U, I still have the option of just running audio straight from the carputer anyway, the H/U is just for dash functionality......

Think about all of that and tell me what you think.....


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## xencloud

A script is an option I guess, I don't know much scripting, but I'm sure I could hire some help for a simple startup script......


back to the H/U issue, the absolute best solution would be to have some kind of H/U that connects vis USB and has drivers so that the carputer could understand everything. I just think touchscreen is not good for everyday use....


The only drawback with my idea is not being able to play DVD's from the dash (unless I use the Alpine DV9860), but I don't really care too much about that......


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## WeDgE

- Burn all your CDs to the HDD
- Use a touchscreen instead of a HU
- Use a frontend such as Frodoplayer (controls skip, volume, etc. functions on your screen)


My touchscreen works great for everyday use...I'll take it over a HU anyday.


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## xencloud

I've been through all that before, but you still can't load discs from the dash without custom work. Call me oldschool, but I still like buttons and knobs. Plus how easy is it to switch to other discs/albums/folders on those front end apps? It seems like it would be a PITA.

I still plan on running a carputer (with a front end app even), but with a 1 DIN flip out touchscreen that hides away when I don't need it. I plan on just using the H/U for day to day audio once everything is set up with the DSP software, or for when I want to use anything else that would require the carputer.

I agree that volume is not a problem, it's just the loading discs and skipping tracks or changing albums/cd's would still be aggravating.......


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## xencloud

but back to my new question.....what exactly does that kx project software do? Does it do Crossover/Time alignment/EQ/Room correction just like the software npdang listed on page 1?


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## WeDgE

xencloud said:


> I've been through all that before, but you still can't load discs from the dash without custom work. Call me oldschool, but I still like buttons and knobs. Plus how easy is it to switch to other discs/albums/folders on those front end apps? It seems like it would be a PITA.
> 
> I still plan on running a carputer (with a front end app even), but with a 1 DIN flip out touchscreen that hides away when I don't need it. I plan on just using the H/U for day to day audio once everything is set up with the DSP software, or for when I want to use anything else that would require the carputer.
> 
> I agree that volume is not a problem, it's just the loading discs and skipping tracks or changing albums/cd's would still be aggravating.......



You won't need to load any discs if you have them all burned on the HDD.

To be honest it takes me more time to flip through my CD wallet, unload/load a CD and wait for the HU to read it than it does to use the search function on Frodoplayer...hehe

I hit one button that brings up the "Song Title, Artist, Genre" selection menu, hit one of those then type a couple letters and BAM...you're looking at the particular song, artist or genre that you wanted. Takes me all of 10secs... 

But what you want is what you want.


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## MarkZ

xencloud said:


> Definitely would like a 4 way setup. Budget is average for the carputer, and I don't have tons to be spending on high end sound cards that cost 1K+, but I'm definitely willing to spend a few hundred on something good. As far the the sound processing features, I'm not looking into high end suites, but more of something that is functional and can give me some fun stuff to play around with. the 5.1 processing isn't absolutely necessary, but would be nice too. Basically, any cool features are just gravy for me, I'm probably more interested in things that can benefit me SQ wise than video stuff.....
> 
> but back to the original questions, I'm not sure on inputs and outputs yet, but I'll be running a three way system up front run off of 2 4 channel amps, one bridged to my midbasses. Then one 5 channel bridged to 3 channels going to my three 10" subs. Then I have my rear deck speakers, not sure if I'm running rear fill or not, and not sure what would power them right now anyway (no amp for them yet).



A few hundred dollars will be more than adequate. Frankly, I think your best bet would be to buy a decent digital card (or use any of the reputable USB sound devices - I've had good experiences with the "Sound Blaster MP3+") - this should cost you between $30 and $80. Then just send it out to an external D/A converter.

Some people get a computer with onboard digital, but I strongly suggest against this. Perhaps surprisingly, all digital outputs are not created equally. The difference is obviously not in the digital realm itself (1's and 0's are 1's and 0's...), but rather in the "creation" of the digital signal from the software. It's not simply piped over to the TOSLINK output straight from memory. Case in point: my EPIA board has onboard digital output, but it sounds atrocious - full of high frequency artifacts and extremely poor freq response. Sounds like the output of a bad tape player. It was suggested to me that it was a driver issue, but even the latest drivers didn't solve it.


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## MarkZ

technobug said:


> My question regarding the whole setup is boot time.
> 
> Isn't it gonna suck to have to wait for the puter to boot everytime you start the car? What is the boot time anyway? And once the puter boots, you still have to open whatever program that you are using for DSP right? Seems like you'll already be where ever you need to be by the time sound comes out the speakers.


That's why, for your carputer, you don't use your favorite OS. Usually, I use RedHat, FreeBSD, or XP for most of my computer needs. But I'd never consider any of those for the carputer. For my car, Windows98. No joke. It goes from turnon to loading Winamp in approx 5 seconds. It shuts down in less time than that. And, since I bought a better power supply (M1-ATX) I never have issues with freezing or blue screens.


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## MarkZ

xencloud said:


> Anyway, you'd want an H/U b/c you'd want some better functionality for your day-to-day audio controls. There's no easy solution for loading a CD from the dash, adjusting volume, and skipping tracks on a carputer.....


Oh, I beg to differ. My functionality is perfect. I use a Xenarc touchscreen and run Winamp double-sized. My volume slider is larger than volume buttons on some head units. I've gotten to the point where I don't even have to look at the screen anymore to make adjustments. But even if I wasn't that adept at it, I simply use my Creative Labs credit card sized remote.

Loading a CD is a little more difficult. I'm not set up to do it because I never use CDs. CDs are my storage medium. I encode the CDs I buy into high bitrate mp3s (eg. 320bps VBR) and then put the CD on the shelf, never to be touched again. If you're worried about compression (and you shouldn't be, IMO), then encode them as WAVs. Hard drive space is cheap these days.

New music is added to the collection via USB - I bought a 10 gig laptop drive on ebay for under $20, a USB case for it for $10, and I simply plug it into a USB hub when I want to transfer files. You could just as easily use one of those USB memory sticks. [I've also written custom unix software to scan my central file server for new music since the last update and automatically put it on the USB drive]

But if you insist on having a CD drive available in the cabin, you could buy an external USB slimline drive and mount it in your dash, glove box, or console.


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## HKSone

Bringing this back; I just finished my Carputer setup because I want to use it to mainly to stream my large library on Spotify and have a more integrated stock feel (ignition shutoff/turn on. Great sound quality especially with FLAC files and I can store a lot of media because I have 480gb ssd. I also have the external usb rom drive but I honestly do not use it much, i'd rather rip my cd's to FLAC to be stored on the hd. Anyways my whole project is here along with videos of anyone was still interested. Thanks. 

98 Lexus GS400 Carputer audiophile install - MP3Car.com


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## hyuna

I have the same problem .


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