# Are we a dying breed?



## Fricasseekid

So I cruised through a few of my local shops today just to get a feel for what they are doing and what local prices on some different products are (I like to support my local economy when possible). At every shop I got the same thing. Lack of knowledge about thier own products and no desire to have anything to with unique and quality setups. "We don't really mess with much of that, all we do is install GPS usually". 

Is the audiophile a dying breed? What happened to the days when the shops sponsored competitions and boasted sick rides that pushed the envelope? Have internet merchants killed the custom audio shop game? I like a deal as much as the next guy but I miss the days when going to hang out at my local audio supplier was a thing to do, it was a place where you could see what others had going on and increase your knowledge. 

But now all they care about is selling an in dash GPS, a flat screen, or slapping a sub in whatever prefab enclosures they have laying around. I understand the economy ain't great but where's the ambition.


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## Angrywhopper

Yes. The general average car audio shopper is looking to hook up their iPod and a bass package for $400. Internet is hurting local dealers and the economy sucks.


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## schmiddr2

They have to buy cheap to compete with the internet so they buy the most mass produced equipment they can so they can advertise competitive prices.

They stock what sells. Simple as that. GPS, mainstream cheap products, and bass setups. EDIT: and Ipod connectivity as said above.

There are shops which carry quality equipment and do highly customized installs but they are few and far between. Each city is different, so you might have one near you or you might have to travel.

Similarly to you, I also miss the days of going to a CA shop and there are employees and customers hanging around talking audio or showing off their new setups. Now the best bet is to read online and go to CA events to get the first hand experience.


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## mmiller

Is the audiophile a dying breed?

No but aftermarket Car Audio is.....

Factory systems are getting better, and far harder to integrate aftermarket gear into.

Its a Paradigm shift that has been a long time coming!


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## Fricasseekid

I would think the increased complication of application would advance the field. Technology is born out of neccessity. If it weren't for the aftermarket audioheads factories wouldn't be installing higher end stereos. Furthermore look at how much cell phones have changed and shown their ability to integrate different technologies into thier MO. Way isn't car audio making that shift as successfully so as integrate with complex electronics utilized in today's vehicles? Do you think it could boil down to education, perhaps the average Jo know longer has the knowledge to DIY some high end electronics? But shops could have that knowledge if the aftermarket equipment existed.


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## Fricasseekid

Bump


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## stills

Fricasseekid said:


> So I cruised through a few of my local shops today just to get a feel for what they are doing and what local prices on some different products are (I like to support my local economy when possible). At every shop I got the same thing. Lack of knowledge about thier own products and no desire to have anything to with unique and quality (





that's always been the case in my exp.


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## dman

Well, speaking with first hand knowledge..... I closed both my shops over a year ago, (closer to 2)... for 15 yrs ive been born to the custom side of things.. my shops did alot of custom work, fiberglass, spl testing and more... late 80's and early 90's we were involved in the bass and sq competitions, held them alot even at the stores. we carried well known upper end brands, Orion, cutting Edge, Focal, Rainbow, JBL, Kenwood Excelon, Panasonic ME, Sony ES (back in the day), and many others.. And if you came into my shop, looking for custom work, i had no problem showing you my woodshop or custom area, We had top of the line table saws with Phenolic tops, and dual routers in one shop, another had top of line saw with router with digital lifts, we had and utilized fiberglass resin spray rigs (if you never seen one of those, 50 gallon resin pails with automated choppers), you could clearly see we spent MONEY to have the best equiptment to do the job, as time went by, less and less people were doing custom or high end installs... Everyone wanted to come in and use the "i found this price on the internet" to try to get the cheaper equiptment, etc.... alot of times not even close to the same item, or there were other mitigating factors... Where we used to have the customer service to counter any of internet shoppers, even that started to go away... People were less and less concerned with customer service, and more about price.... Hell our charges were a little higher than the next shop, but we had rules, and were not talking much, but we were 100% solder, nothing ever crimped (ive fired guys for that), then you had shops all over the place popping up from guys who thought throwing in a cd player, they could run a shop, there were more open and close shops all over my area of the state. Then you started seeing the throw in shops, carrying the flea market junk, and going by the in and out install just to get it done... But really the biggest thing to hurt us custom shops were the manufacturers... We used to carry all PROTECTED lines... They were supposed to be protected!!!! but as time went by, more and more of the good lines were showing up all over the internet, sometimes at prices we could not even buy for.. Then you had the transshippers, and to find out, alot of the manufacturers were selling direct to them, so much for loyalty to their dealers... I took off for a while and went to work for KENWOOD USA for a few years, and started to find out first hand how things were working... ON the EXCELON line, used to be highly restricted, they even started embedding serial #'s on the chipsets, then items started showing up at transshippers, and come to find out, Kenwood was selling to them (big guy in mexico), and the transshipper would sell right back to unauthorized distributors in the states.. So im sure alot of manufacturers went this route, they want to make the money too... And we have many other cases that could be pointed out, like the AUTHORIZED distributor, selling to the UNAUTHORIZED distributor to move product.. And YES this is first hand knowledge......Im sorry this has been so long, but once my leases were up, i decided to stay on the home side of things and commercial, than to do pissy installs with no pride, not to mention, i was doing more annual dollar sales on the home side than car at that point..


















































the SHOP PROTECTOR.....................NOW RETIRED and RELAXING


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## stills

and there you have it.


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## jbreddawg

I was really heavy into the car audio scene back in the eighties. South Florida,Fort Lauderdale area. There was a high end custom shop on every corner.I remember when all the top names were sold in shops like that Soundstream,Phoenix Gold,Hifonics,Zapco,Rockford,etc.... 
Huge stereo contests every weekend it was tons of fun !
Years went by and I got into restoring motorcycles,bought an SUV,taking kids to baseball and living the fat american lifestyle. 

My son (now 22) decided he wanted a killer stereo for a Christmas present two christmas's ago. 
Boy was I shocked when I started looking around at what had happened ! 
The only way to buy good (audison VRX) stuff was on the internet .
I drove out on a saturday to 4 different shops to buy some 4 gauge power wire. 
Only one shop actually had 4 gauge wire ! All the shops were very similar though. Lots of audiopipe amps ,Dual/Pyle and other cheapie Head units cheapie speakers and lots of flea market garbage. 
They did do GPS installs though lol

I think there are lots of things going on. One is price, people are cheap plain and simple. The economy's bad bla bla bla. 
I think one of the biggest things though is Factory stereos are getting much much better . Ok, maybe not when compared to a nice high end aftermarket system but I guarantee you 95% of the people out there are perfectly happy with the stock system. 
It's not like the old days when stock systems sucked donkey ass and you really had no choice but to do something about it but nowadays the stock stuff is not half bad . 

It's really sad to see but yes, I believe we are a dying breed .


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## dman

hey, i dont mind a DIY guy, but you get them all the time that done screwed up their own install, and want it fixed for free or bargain internet prices... We have bills to pay too...

Now that being said, i used to always do stuff for DIY guys... We had a few years back a DIY day (and several that followed). 

You didnt see shops do this...

I was a forum member over at a Mustang site (we used to do some custom work for a mustang place). Anyway we advertised a DIY DAY.. We held it on a Sunday.... Shop was closed to the public, but open for the Mustang forum members only... The deal was for 8 hrs. that day, they could bring their cars with equiptment etc, they could redo anything they had or install what they had... they had to DO ALL the work themselves, but they could utilize ANY equiptment, tools, or materials we had... (all they had to pay for was any materials they used, and was at our cost). I had myself and my installation guys there and available for guidance and pointers, etc.. (just not physical installations, although me and my guys couldnt help but jump in here and there), we had hotdogs, drinks, etc. and was just a laid back open DIY day.... I earned alot of customers from those, and people got to do their own thing, etc.. Was fun, i did a few more times after that... Of course we did require signed releases in case you stapled your fingers to your box or something, lol.. Here a few pics from that day..

Console fabrication for guages in a mustang










a guys DIY install (was rough looking) he had done










now with some guidance (and a tad help so he didnt take his finger off with the routers, lol), flushed it up in the back of the mustang, no wires all over the place, they were cleaned up behind the panels, and a clean look when you opened the trunk. The proper tools help when doing the install... The customer had a blast..


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## reker13

Ipods, xBox, PS3, youtube, text, sext, etc all compete for the attention of the current and next generation. There will be more not less of that in the future so, Yea, we are dieing breed. Lets be honest. Most of us spend countless hours tuning/changing our systems to get another, what? 5%, performance improvement? So yea the kids today have no attention spans but many of us have 'issues' too. :laugh:


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## Fricasseekid

5% is a significant increase...


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## Fricasseekid

The purist mentality is dying itself, in all crafts and hobbies.


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## Angrywhopper

Fricasseekid said:


> The purist mentality is dying itself, in all crafts and hobbies.


I agree. Americans, in general, are price oriented shoppers. 

Most want the "cheapest" first, and put quality in second place. When I shop, I ask myself exactly what features im looking for and what product will fill my needs..I then set a budget and adjust it to make sure I get what I want. 

Or..

It might just be a car audio thing. I have friends that will spend $200-$300 on a pair of shoes..but think a $500 amplifier that will last them a decade is too "expensive". Girls will pay $400 for their handbag but will ***** and moan that a whole audio system that is $800 is too "expensive".

/rant


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## Fricasseekid

I'm really enjoying reading this thread listening to you guys reminisce about the times that were. It very nostalgic. 

I'm thinking that the days of CA shop are dwindling but audiophiles and bass heads will always be around. The missing piece is the hub. 

Perhaps the future lays in clubs that meet once a month, buy gear in bulk, show off builds, methods and expertise, and (most importantly) sponsor local competitions! Something just like thus forum but strictly local, like car clubs or bike gangs.


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## stills

Angrywhopper said:


> I agree. Americans, in general, are price oriented shoppers.
> 
> Most want the "cheapest" first, and put quality in second place. When I shop, I ask myself exactly what features im looking for and what product will fill my needs..I then set a budget and adjust it to make sure I get what I want.
> 
> Or..
> 
> It might just be a car audio thing. I have friends that will spend $200-$300 on a pair of shoes..but think a $500 amplifier that will last them a decade is too "expensive". Girls will pay $400 for their handbag but will ***** and moan that a whole audio system that is $800 is too "expensive".
> 
> /rant




i believe the cheap 1st state of mind is one of the reasons this country is where it is.
everything disposable


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## Fricasseekid

Cheap is not cool. But there is nothing wrong with inexpensive. There are alot of brands out there that go at a bargain and exceed in quality over most of the top players in the audio game, prime example: stereo integrity. 

I remember the first time I heard a pair of Arc audio components back when they first came out, I couldn't believe they were only 160/pair. 

A member on this very forum made a very good point when he said "make the cheap stuff sound good first, experiment and play with it. Then drop some money on high dollar gear". 

The problem is greed, greed from the manufacturers (as Dman stated) and greed on the local dealer level; who in thier right mind would pay 400+ for any sub after finding out it could be had for 200 on the interwebs, authorized or not?!


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## dman

Fricasseekid said:


> Cheap is not cool. But there is nothing wrong with inexpensive. There are alot of brands out there that go at a bargain and exceed in quality over most of the top players in the audio game, prime example: stereo integrity.
> 
> I remember the first time I heard a pair of Arc audio components back when they first came out, I couldn't believe they were only 160/pair.
> 
> A member on this very forum made a very good point when he said "make the cheap stuff sound good first, experiment and play with it. Then drop some money on high dollar gear".
> 
> The problem is greed, greed from the manufacturers (as Dman stated) and greed on the local dealer level; who in thier right mind would pay 400+ for any sub after finding out it could be had for 200 on the interwebs, authorized or not?!


becaue if it wasnt on the web, then you can get your $400!!!! It really falls back more on the manufacturers.. If their product was so good, then they could demand a fair price and get it, keep it off the web or from transshippers. Home product not so different. Back in early 90's I was a Sunfire direct dealer, had a customer come through the shop. Was looking for a amp we carried, we were out of stock, but had a few coming that week, he was from out of town, we sold him the amp, took prepayment, and when amp hit, we shipped him the amp... Well a long story short, amp had a issue shortly after, he called in for service, we sold him amp, and shipped, so we got a 6 month ban, pulled off website, everything, they cut us right off, no foregiveness, even though he bought locally, we broke shipping protocol technically, NO internet or shipping of sunfire product, they didnt even want the explanations, it hurt our sales because they were one of our leading brands.. After we got back on board, things were great, now several years later, sunfire is listed all over the net, and being sold to distributors instead of staying direct.. thats opened up a whole new can of worms... You ask a dealer to commit to 20k a quarter, but then dont protect them... Hell the dealer no longer want to support the manufacturer... I say the upper end manufacturers out there that want dealer support, needs to support the dealer with territory protection, training, etc. but hell that aint gonna change anyway... They have lost support and the old school way...


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## dman

Fricasseekid said:


> I'm really enjoying reading this thread listening to you guys reminisce about the times that were. It very nostalgic.
> 
> I'm thinking that the days of CA shop are dwindling but audiophiles and bass heads will always be around. The missing piece is the hub.
> 
> Perhaps the future lays in clubs that meet once a month, buy gear in bulk, show off builds, methods and expertise, and (most importantly) sponsor local competitions! Something just like thus forum but strictly local, like car clubs or bike gangs.


LOL, yeah why dont we just start operating on each other since doctors cost too much, i mean, hey we can read how to do it on the web!


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## Fricasseekid

Ooh sarcasm lemme try...

Well we could, but who could afford car audio malpractice insurance since warranties are seldom honored... :-/


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## dman

Fricasseekid said:


> Ooh sarcasm lemme try...
> 
> Well we could, but who could afford car audio malpractice insurance since warranties are seldom honored... :-/


hmm, i dont buy into the warranties not honored... If you bought from a authorized dealer, then you covered, never in my life have i had a issue, hell if you smart buy extended.. I sell them on product iv had sitting around.. no issues at all, and if you are getting work done at a shop, ask to see their insurance, there is no shame in that, I always carried it, both for the thieves, and the just in case mishap!!!


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## Fricasseekid

I feel ya Dman and I like where your coming from but it's capitalism, what would work better?


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## Fricasseekid

Well you seem to be a rare breed of shop owner, if you were in my town I'd support you as best I could. I had a dealer in Amarillo that got my Memphis fixes for me after I bought it on clearance. But when distributors compete consumers win and there are alot of manufacturers out there now that don't replace/fix **** so I'd rather purchase the discount goods. 

The only way for shops to survive is to diversify.


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## Fricasseekid

Basic installation is easy. It's hard to make money doing something anyone can do! But it's getting harder, that might be a chance for a skilled install man to retap a broken market. Diversify; meet the needs of new cars.


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## dman

Well, my eventually getting out of car was motivated financially in the end.

I mean:

$13,000 and 6 months later









OR

$17,000 and a WEEK later

























I dont have to fight near as hard!


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## Fricasseekid

Yeah GPS and multimedia just tip the iceberg though. Soon system will be integrated with the ECU and who knows what else. Whoever has the ability to use their imagination the best, jump hurdles like this, and meet the needs of guys like me will be the ones who can survive this crisis. The Internet can't I corporate my HU with my trucks CPU, GPS, airbags, and all kinds of other things I can't do for
myself. 

What about offering DIY classes to the public for a fee? Audio installer school on a small scale maybe?


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## dman

Fricasseekid said:


> Well you seem to be a rare breed of shop owner, if you were in my town I'd support you as best I could. I had a dealer in Amarillo that got my Memphis fixes for me after I bought it on clearance. But when distributors compete consumers win and there are alot of manufacturers out there now that don't replace/fix **** so I'd rather purchase the discount goods.
> 
> The only way for shops to survive is to diversify.


Now GRANTED, i do blame some shops as well.. If your asking top dollar for your stuff, then you need to go the extra mile, and take care of that customer... What many shops out there may not know, is the terms they are under with either their distributors or the manufacturers.. My deal i had with MOST all my brands were over the counter exchange.. I had through my Zapco rep, if it broke and we verified it (our shop) then i replaced over the counter for our customer as long as was a CURRENT model, then the rep handled the return to zapco.. you can negotiate anything, but be willing to support the line as well.... I was doing a good amount of Zapco at the time, dont expect favors if your doing 2 amps a month of a certain brand...know what i mean...


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## Fricasseekid

Now that's diversification!


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## dman

Fricasseekid said:


> Yeah GPS and multimedia just tip the iceberg though. Soon system will be integrated with the ECU and who knows what else. Whoever has the ability to use their imagination the best, jump hurdles like this, and meet the needs of guys like me will be the ones who can survive this crisis. The Internet can't I corporate my HU with my trucks CPU, GPS, airbags, and all kinds of other things I can't do for
> myself.
> 
> What about offering DIY classes to the public for a fee? Audio installer school on a small scale maybe?


Well, i tossed that around years ago... but was easily talked out of by my attorney... you see, if i charge you a fee, and show you something, then you go do that same something to someone elses car, and you burn the thing up or fry a PCM, i could as easily be at fault in a lawsuit, i mean i made a profit by training you, but if i showed or helped you for free, then i made no monetary gain at all.... Thats kinda how it was explained to me, but in more legal terms, lol... So i decided against it.


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## Fricasseekid

That makes sense. But if one of my local dealers offered a sat. workshop on, let's say.... fiberglass enclosures, for $40-$50 a person; I would totally attend. If only 20 people attend, that's good money for that day.


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## dman

and another big point, is alot of the shops are just plain ass LAZY in todays world.. They dont want to bust ass, they want to do a sloppy ass install as quick as possible and get paid and move on to another...

Hell i met this guy out here a few town over you could say, started him a little shop up, he actually bought alot of little things from me to get going.. It was tough for him, new shop and all... And for any of you on this forum that have met me in person can tell you I had thousands of dollars, and i mean like 100k in product in my warehouse at one time, and that was just car audio... anyway, i was trying to help this kid out, sold him a ton of **** at like .10 on the dollar, was even thinking about putting all my saws and stuff at his shop so he could use, and i would just pop in every once in a while to maybe work on my own stuff , or even help him a little... Then im giving him hundreds of dollars in wire and accessories, and saying listen, you sell, then at end of every week or two, i will come by, and you just pay me for what you actually sold, then he's out no money... Well hell the damn kid hardly ever open, i mean you cannot run a shop on 3 days a week, or have hours whenever you want like 9 am today, but tomorrow was 11 because he stayed out too late... You know,just damn LAZY, needless to say, that didnt work out.


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## dman

Fricasseekid said:


> That makes sense. But if one of my local dealers offered a sat. workshop on, let's say.... fiberglass enclosures, for $40-$50 a person; I would totally attend. If only 20 people attend, that's good money for that day.


i hear ya, as i would have in my early days.. when you start to get older and wiser you start to worry about everything... lawsuit happy people out there.. I once got sued by a guy who said we scratched his steering wheel on a Sirius install.. He came in 3 days after the fact and wanted $1200 for a steering wheel, i looked at and said yeah right, he then filed suit on me. He lost but damn really, even the judge thought he was a idiot.


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## Fricasseekid

That's one of the points I was getting at with this thread. I went to the same retailer wher I bought my current subs yesterday and one of the installers was showing me a pair of Memphis 6x9s that he said were on a xo. I asked him what frequency they were set at, he didn't know. The I said "it doesn't matter it's probably somewhere around 80-125 hz". He looked at me and replied "your way over my head, I'm just getting speaker loads and wiring configurations down".  Why would I want this guy installing my $1000 dollars worth of gear? I made a joke about wiring speakers rated at different ohm and I don't even think he knows that there is an actual formula for resistance!!

Not to mention, not one of my 3 major local dealers could tell me where to go to have an amp benchtested.


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## dman

Fricasseekid said:


> That's one of the points I was getting at with this thread. I went to the same retailer wher I bought my current subs yesterday and one of the installers was showing me a pair of Memphis 6x9s that he said were on a xo. I asked him what frequency they were set at, he didn't know. The I said "it doesn't matter it's probably somewhere around 80-125 hz". He looked at me and replied "your way over my head, I'm just getting speaker loads and wiring configurations down".  Why would I want this guy installing my $1000 dollars worth of gear? I made a joke about wiring speakers rated at different ohm and I don't even think he knows that there is an actual formula for resistance!!
> 
> Not to mention, not one of my 3 major local dealers could tell me where to go to have an amp benchtested.


WOW, if that was over his head i woulda took off running quick, lol.... As far as the benchtesting, that is understandable to a degree.... if you just wanted to have one verified working with output etc, they should have been able to at least test for power, with some output, i know we had a area set up for that... Now if you wanted to test full specs like the full output, etc. and actually know the true wattage is was putting out, with clip rates, etc. then you would need a more specialized electronics guy that did repairs and testing such as that.. i didnt even know of very many people who did that. i had one guy used to be real good at measuring the outputs, but we had to send to Houston, no one really around local that did or could do..


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## Fricasseekid

Well that sucks.


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## Angrywhopper

Fricasseekid... You have great points and wish all customers are like you. Unfortunately you are the minority and what you suggest wouldn't work for a business today.


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## truckerfte

Fricasseekid said:


> Well you seem to be a rare breed of shop owner, if you were in my town I'd support you as best I could. I had a dealer in Amarillo that got my Memphis fixes for me after I bought it on clearance. But when distributors compete consumers win and there are alot of manufacturers out there now that don't replace/fix **** so I'd rather purchase the discount goods.
> 
> The only way for shops to survive is to diversify.


Im gonna run with this one for a min.


I know the dealer you speak of. Yes, you got good service. But at what cost? I was in that shop a couple of weeks ago, needing a fuse holder. $65 for an item that can be picked up on egay for $19 shipped. Same manu/model. I don't mind paying a small premium for a local buy. But i thought this was over the top. I know bills gotta get paid. But its cyclical. Im not going to pay such a high mark-up for an item like this. So I, and others like me, are gonna shop internets. So now Don has got to raise prices even more to make up for lost revenue. Thats going to chase more guys off. Now it gets to the point where even the non-DIY guy is going to have second thoughts about upgrading beyond that nav set-up. So eventually Don is either going to have to adjust pricing, or close up shop. Since you know that shop, notice he is in a high-dollar real estate area, compare that to some of the other places in town. This does play into it. I just can't afford to help him pay his lease at the mall.Nor can i afford to pay for the returns when less-than-qualified cash and carry guys blow **** up. 

And as shops like that close up, there is less and less exposure of "the good stuff" to noobs. Its a vicious cycle


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## Fricasseekid

Not sure if it's the same shop. This was back in 2004, I live in Baton Rouge now and the shop I speak of was in a strip mall back then. It was on the mice side of town though. 

I will say that I had call them and give him a bunch of **** so he'd ship me my amp back after he agreed to warranty it.


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## truckerfte

he's changed locations. but same shop. now he's over on the westgate property. back then he may have been over on 34th and bell, by the old dollar theater. It was the memphis/focal lines that narrowed it down for me. Its not like there a whole lot of options around here!


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## Fricasseekid

Must be the guy then. I will say they built a real nice box for my single cab Tacoma and two 10s for about 150 I think? Knowing what I know know though, I couldve done better on my own.


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## JayinMI

cajunner said:


> anyways this is a long post going nowhere but I think our hobby developed in part, due to the circumstances of wanting something we couldn't afford unless we did it ourselves, and that helped curve the industry into a scene where the circumstances of wanting something we can't get unless we do it ourselves, eventually developed, which _ruined_ the hobby of car audio.


Fixed.

Jay


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## Fricasseekid

That's quite the paradox. Is that suggesting that our hobby is self annihilating? We build it because we want it; because we want it they make it better; which makes us want it more; so we can get it less?

When I put it thy way almost sounds self perpetuating....


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## truckerfte

Fricasseekid said:


> Must be the guy then. I will say they built a real nice box for my single cab Tacoma and two 10s for about 150 I think? Knowing what I know know though, I couldve done better on my own.


And that is part of the reason things are dying. Because those of us who started long ago have progressed to the point where we can do it better ourselves. So we start looking at diy-style equipment, and internet shopping to save a few bucks, and explore options other than off the shelf equipment. granted, we are only a tiny fragment of the market, but we are the ones often looking for the highest levels of equipment. Bobby Big Bass isnt shopping for Sinfoni amps. The shops don't cater to "us" anymore. But Bobby is perfectly happy with the "mainstream" mid-level stuff, and average install. He just wants to "bump" harder than his buddies. Eventually he finds other hobbies to take up his time and money.


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## Fricasseekid

The drop in demand will cause a drop in prices but probably a drop
In quality too.


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## truckerfte

..a good ramble.

you are absolutely right, and you brought up a point that has eluded threads like this one.

We all know about the hardware side of it....but the knowledge base now available to us normal people has exploded. 

and that is more valuable than scoring a good deal on amps from egay...


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## Fricasseekid

And thys why I'm here, like it or not!

I may be very contradicting and controversial at times but I have mad respect for the wealth of knowledge that is available to me here. I just get very defensive when someone tells me that I can't do something or achieve my goals and I know others have achieved similar.


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## jsun_g

+1 to all your points.

Remember the days of the newsgroup rec.audio.car? Heck, a lot of the big names in competition posted regularly on that newsgroup back in the day, but not many people had internet (or access to the net news). Someone once shipped me about 200 ft. of 8 ga. wire for a copy of a sub box design program (Perfbox?).

It's a whole new world. These days a DIY'er can Google for knowledge (or find it on here). A few people tough it out in the DIY spirit, but by and large, people want things immediately these days...sacrificing getting their hands dirty and learning by doing - which, IMHO, is the only way to really learn.

What used to be a few well-known and looked-up-to manufacturers like PG, RF, Zapco, Hifonics, and the like bloomed to hundreds of manufacturers because the money was there...and even more of a bubble to burst.
Nowadays I can get a decent amp made in Malaysia or China for under 50 cents per watt, so almost all companies have offshored manufacturing to remain competitive. A self-fulfilling prophecy as previously noted in this thread.





cajunner said:


> I believe the hobby of car audio is alive and well.
> 
> and always will be, it's just changed from being a dealer-centric formula to an open-ended one, where the information exchange available on the internet makes it possible for people to complete a sound system that rivals any competition system that may have cost 40K in 1980's dollars, and they can do it on a couple grand of well-selected product.
> 
> It used to be that you had to pay a dealer to provide you with the airspace/tuning vent dimensions, that gave a good response in your vehicle, remember those days? The software to build boxes was several hundred dollars and it took a good computer, (back then, a good computer was a 100 Pentium) and you paid for the privilege of having an enclosure calculation presented to you.
> 
> now, anyone with an index finger can do it, and do it all day long, there's no exclusivity to the information anymore, and once that opened up, the days of the shop charging weeks to complete a custom interior also started to bend to the cheaper, faster, Best Buy contingency, the mall shops were taking over the mom and pops, the whole face of car audio became a race to see who could do the most cocaine, who could buy the fastest cars, the owners of these places were on a high they never thought they'd pay for.
> 
> but pay they did, and close shop, they did too. And it wasn't just the high pricing, or that they were the only places to get product, it was the atmosphere, it was almost like the installers were put on pedestals, they had clout, the information was valuable and to get it you had to put in the time, you had to work for it.
> 
> 
> now, you just get online and a guru a half a continent away fills you in with full color video and youTube tutorials, even the car alarm market is fading fast with the how-to segments taking that profit stream right out of the mix..
> 
> 
> what a ramble..


----------



## Fricasseekid

Many thing can't be learned just by doing. Learning how to wire subs to an amp would be VERY expensive trial and era. Most people in this hobby learned by reading, researching, and listening to others, just like I'm doing now. Only now the info is more accessible.


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## Golf Echo

I don't think we're a dying breed, we're just getting older and more comfortable not doing things for ourselves. I got in to CA back in the 90's, took a decade off and got back into it, so these are my thoughts from recent observations: I think one of the problems nowadays is that people are buying (for example) a Dodge Caliber SRT which comes with a Kicker system and they think it's the end-all of car audio. Most people have never heard a finely-tuned system which allows them to hear the subtle differences in music, like how some songs have piano tracks that are barely heard on a stock system but sound amazing when played on an SQ system.

Plus a lot of us are from the 'Super-size, super fast' generation. We don't have the patience to do some research and spend a week or two making a custom fiberglass box when we can buy a pre-fabbed box at Best Buy, throw some speakers in it and be on our way.


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## envisionelec

dman said:


> And we have many other cases that could be pointed out, like the AUTHORIZED distributor, selling to the UNAUTHORIZED distributor to move product.. And YES this is first hand knowledge....


Absolutely no truer words spoken. :mean:


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## rc10mike

Before the internet age, people didnt know any better. If you had the passion for it, you paid for it, but thats the beauty of it. 

Car audio was a niche market. A "small" group of enthusiasts that love what they do.

Now, the concern is the mainstream market, bad news for true car audio enthusiasts....

Its not just car audio other niche hobbies are going downhill also....


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## ALL4SPL

Dying breed no, however the days of 25 car audio shops in your local town are done. Here in Orlando there were a few staple shops, Audio Excellence(still around), Sound Advice (FL/GA Chain since gone under), Time N Sound (still around due to selling more than just car audio) and Ultimate Audio(still around as far as I know). Audio Excellence capable of doing $50k installs with all the trimmings fiberglass motorization etc. Sound Advice started off late 80s capable of high end installs but shifted to deck and four installs mostly around the mid 90s. Time N Sound, never IMO able to do high end installs mainly a deck and four store with an occasional big system. Ultimate Audio same as Audio Excellence or they used to be not sure now. Aside from these BIG Stores there were TONS of smaller fly by night shops. Those are all gone now with only a few who actually had skill/customer service survived. Car audio shops are today nothing like back in the 90s, when sales staff was excited and interested in helping a customer build a system. Today it's merely how much are you spending? There seemed to be more of a 1 on 1 experience back then when the shop owners knew that when you treated someone that well they keep coming back, and they send friends there too.

Has the internet killed the Car Audio shop? No the Manufacturers and Transhippers have just as dman said. I remember when JL Audio had a HUGE HUGE policy on internet sales and distribution where they would yank the line and come in buy out your inventory and pull it all out immediately if you were caught selling online. Now sure this was probably just knee jerk reaction by the manufacturers to the internet, but if they TRULY wanted to protect the dealers they would have take EVERY step they could to prevent internet sales, including transhippers. Just like Lars from Metallica saying years ago that they would NEVER sell a metallica song or cd on the internet, this was back when the napster craze was going on. Anyway the manufacturers all had a part in killing the car audio shops, and if anyone is to take the majority of the blame to me it's them, not ebay, not internet sites like woofersetc and whomever else. I don't think the cost of gear has really had too much effect on the industry, that is just technology, look at when the first indash cd players came out. And now you can buy a cd player at target for $76. Newer tech, smaller components and more leads to lower prices but it can also lead to bigger and better products. I do think ebay has taken its toll on the industry to an extent but I think where it could be fixed is manufacturers offering BIG warranty incentives for factory authorized and installed items. Not just "oh you get another 1 yr warranty" and that leads me to my next part.

Warranties mean NOTHING, this was a big selling point to a lot in the 90s however even back then they were horrible. Example, Audio Excellence (whom I worked for for a few years), sells an Orion 225HCCA installs and warranty is covered by Orion right? Well yes but here's the kicker, even back then you had to remove the amp, send it to Orion, then WAIT 4-8 weeks for your amp to be back and reinstalled in your car. WHO the hell wants to wait that long? This was the case with MANY different brands, and to me it made ZERO sense, charge the customer a $50 advanced RMA fee and give them a brand new amp, send off the broken one and resell it as a refurb, to me that would have made more sense. I cannot tell you how many pissed off people called day in and day out asking about repairs. Again the manufacturers making it harder on the Car Audio shops. Nowadays you buy even used on ebay and squaretrade warranty your item, BAM you are taken care of within 5 days maximum usually. 

Factory stereos getting better, for the average driver maybe for an audiophile hell no. I have sat in $45k+ BMWs and while they are nice systems, to me they are just not enough. And I think most audiophiles feel the same way. Sure gone are the days of $1500 AV systems in cars due to factory video systems now being installed on most SUVs and cars but there is still room for other gear, just getting the average consumer to see that is the hard part.



I was browsing through my magazine collection dating back to 1988. And let me tell you the 90s were the days period! Sure the early 2000s were nice but in the 90s 93-99 there was a massive fever for car audio, and there was a massive amount of technology changes in it as well. Issues were slam packed with new product reviews, whats coming out, who's who in competition and even reader cars in the backs of some magazines. The internet has pretty much killed the magazine era, the same it is doing to newspapers now.

I personally think the economy is the main reason, sure factory stereos are better. But I have a 2009 car and even with an alpine based factory unit I wanted my CDA-9835 in there because it's well better even though it was made in 2004! As long as companies like metra and more exist to replace factory units there will always be a market for the replacing of factory stereos. I think when the economy makes a come back, which in my opinion won't be for another 7ish years, we will see a come back. I hope it comes sooner with the economy and car audio but I will be waiting for the day.


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## dman

I will throw another small tidbit in there. When i had my shops. We would hold some car shows, and some fun SoundOffs... i was involved greatly in early 90's with db drag then, and in later years even holding the small soundoffs the cities killed pretty much.. With all the new noise ordinances in place, it got to where you could not hold one anymore, and thats where alot of your customers who spent little or alot could come and hang out together.. Even when we could permit the events, it started to get very restrictive...


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## anthonyott99

I have wanted to start my own car audio business for years but i agree with all thats been said and for these reasons i just had to resort to doing simply the install work and let the customer buy the products for themselves or i will order it for them over the internet. Its sad thati have to do this because retail mark-up is a great way for a business to make money but now i have to make money strictly on labor alone !!


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## tankbulldog

I must agree, there is no ambition.I am an old school guy and just got back in the audio game. The last system i put together was about 20 years ago or so and back then we all used to get together at the shop and design and build some pretty cool stuff and always made sure it sounded nice,really nice.When my factory jbl system finally went in my car i went to a few local shops and all they wanted to sell me was (what they wanted to sell me) When i asked some questions all they would say is sure or i can find out. All the kids that came into the shops was just worried about what size box they had in stock.A listened to the dealer tell so many kids, oh that will be loud,that will be really loud.What kind of knowledge is that? That is the kind of shops we have around here. I do like to help my community and spend locally, but with knowledge like that i am forced to look and shop elsewhere. So are we a dying breed? Yes I think we are.


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## jbreddawg

Heres a question I received on one of the amps I have listed on ebay.

"I was wondering what other amps you have? I am looking for something big! And I have like 300 bucks to get the biggest, baddest amp for the money. Let me know what you have. Thanks"

That pretty much sums up todays attitude about stereos and the shops now cater to it. 3000 watt audiopipe amps ! 149.99 !!


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## Fricasseekid

What's really gonna suck is when people like us can no longer find quality products cause all the amps are putting out 3000 watts of trash power and all the hertz and focals are being manufactured in china so they can compete with Pyle.


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## jbreddawg

It's all coming down to quantity over quality. 

I used to work with a guy who bought his wife a 2 carat diamond ring for 1800 bucks lol 
We all used to joke that it probably had a roach leg sticking out of the side of it. Well, he brought it in one day to show it off. Now I'm no diamond expert but this was the dullest nastiest diamond I had ever seen lol but boy was he proud !!

It's the same thing with the stereos these days. They just want big ,loud and cheap ! The true audiofiles are getting less and less. Pretty soon the only decent stuff will be like Brax,Tru,McIntosh,etc.. and will cost many thousands of dollars just to enter the door. Everything else will be fleamarket garbage.


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## Audiophyle

Wow this thread brings back memories, lol.

I think people are quick to blame online sales, manufacturers not stepping up for dealers, shops getting greedy, etc.... but I dont think that is the case. Ive known a lot of shop owners, and installers, and it is truly amazing how ignorant & misinformed many can be, even at higher end shops you run into this. I worked at a place for a while that the owner had been running for 20+ years & he was a complete imbecile, yet claimed his experience made him good. His shop practices & customer support was great & the only reason why I worked there, but he was an utter moron & spread BS like it was the word of god.
The introduction of internet to the hobby was a godsend because it uncovered a lot of the hype & misinformation being passed around like candy. The only caveat being you had to "look" for the real information. Online sales vs B&M shops is the same argument as Walmart vs Localy owned, this situation happens in every market no matter what is being sold.

The problem I see is the B&M shops that are suffering cant get their heads out of their asses. Customer service is hugely important, and Im not talking selling them ****. Shops are missing out on a completely new market. OEM systems are complex, they are getting better OEM equipment, and internet sales kill margins, and it seems many shops mope around in an almost lobotomized daze hoping for older cars to come in. 
Old car owners have old cars for a reason, new is expensive. Thats not the clientele that will pay the bills. New cars have complex oem systems, but they are also expensive. If they can spend the coin on the car, they will spend the coin on getting the best. These systems need integration, and that =$$. Options are everywhere (JL clean sweep, JBL MS-8, Alpine H660, RF 360.2, MTX reQ, etc....) yet shops are not capitalizing on the corner of the market that has not been touched, PROVIDING SERVICES. The real issue is they have to take the steps to learn, to KNOW how to do these things they expect people to pay them for, and most are too lazy to take the initiative. That is the reason I got into installing in the first place almost 15 years ago, because the local shops did not provide any real service for what they were charging.

The market for aftermarket audio is plenty alive, & aftermarket alarms more so. OEM gear is getting better, but its still poor compared to a decent aftermarket setup. The problem is shops just are not doing a good enough job informing the client WHY they need to upgrade, which is usually because they too dont have the information.
The shops & installers that know what Im talking about, are usually the ones still making money.


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## dman

Audiophyle said:


> Wow this thread brings back memories, lol.
> 
> I think people are quick to blame online sales, manufacturers not stepping up for dealers, shops getting greedy, etc.... but I dont think that is the case. Ive known a lot of shop owners, and installers, and it is truly amazing how ignorant & misinformed many can be, even at higher end shops you run into this. I worked at a place for a while that the owner had been running for 20+ years & he was a complete imbecile, yet claimed his experience made him good. His shop practices & customer support was great & the only reason why I worked there, but he was an utter moron & spread BS like it was the word of god.
> The introduction of internet to the hobby was a godsend because it uncovered a lot of the hype & misinformation being passed around like candy. The only caveat being you had to "look" for the real information. Online sales vs B&M shops is the same argument as Walmart vs Localy owned, this situation happens in every market no matter what is being sold.
> 
> The problem I see is the B&M shops that are suffering cant get their heads out of their asses. Customer service is hugely important, and Im not talking selling them ****. Shops are missing out on a completely new market. OEM systems are complex, they are getting better OEM equipment, and internet sales kill margins, and it seems many shops mope around in an almost lobotomized daze hoping for older cars to come in.
> Old car owners have old cars for a reason, new is expensive. Thats not the clientele that will pay the bills. New cars have complex oem systems, but they are also expensive. If they can spend the coin on the car, they will spend the coin on getting the best. These systems need integration, and that =$$. Options are everywhere (JL clean sweep, JBL MS-8, Alpine H660, RF 360.2, MTX reQ, etc....) yet shops are not capitalizing on the corner of the market that has not been touched, PROVIDING SERVICES. The real issue is they have to take the steps to learn, to KNOW how to do these things they expect people to pay them for, and most are too lazy to take the initiative. That is the reason I got into installing in the first place almost 15 years ago, because the local shops did not provide any real service for what they were charging.
> 
> The shops & installers that know what Im talking about, are usually the ones still making money.


I think your off base on alot of this, and myself do take some offense, as ive been involved in all 4 phases...

Customer
Installer
Working for Manufacturer
Shop Owner

And yes a majority of it is directly related to the manufacturer and the online sales.. Manufacturers are two faced, and the distributors follow suit.. My getting out was in part to seeing this first hand... When you protect a line, then PROTECT it, and make sure your distributors follow the same protocol.. I could take days just putting facts all over here, but why waste the time.. Im one of the select people that have got to see it first hand.. There would be no internet wars and etc. if guidlines were set and followed.. Ive been involved in Commercial and Home Theater for years now, and its a better life even with the economy sucking as it does right now.. I have spent tons of hours in training and tons of money in equiptment, im not the cheapest guy out there, but im pretty sure im one of the more qualified for sure. I took the same approach when i had my car audio shops.. I was always learning, and i made sure my guys were always learning, and most of the time on my dime.. Everything that went out had my approval or my shop managers approval, i didnt care what it was.. 

Now a good example of a great manufacturer...... We have a Division II to my company, we sell high end outdoor grills and applliances... Alot mainly to Jobbers in the field... Now take BIG GREEN EGG for example... I love the company.. They have a SET price to sell at.. We all sell at the same price, it comes down to customer service at that point.. There is NO internet selling, if you DO, then you are DONE by them.. there is no second chances, PERIOD... There is also no selling below their set pricing, or again you are DONE.. And there is no shipping of the Big Green Egg.. If you think im kidding , buy yourself one, and know your stuck with it.. There was a incident several months ago out here.. Walmart bought alot sideways from a distributor and put them in their stores, and sold them below map.. Ask the pissed off customers about that one.. Simply put, big green egg, got ahold of the information, tracked down the distributor (how was he gonna hide that one). Cut him off! PERIOD, DONE... Let wallmart know they were stuck with product, and REFUSED all warranties from the customers, even shipping issues.... Big Green egg is hard to ship correctly... and those that got damaged were refused by the company, and the shipping company because they were NOT authorized dealers, and states as much, and that relieved the parties.. Only walmart was ****ed then... Walmart thought they were too big, and push over Big Green Egg, didnt happen... My rep alone does excess of 1 million dollars a quarter.. and because its protected.. I do quite well with it, not because im priced better, i just get off my ass, and deliver it for you, and set it up, maybe give you a cooking lesson, whatever it takes in customer service, but i dont cut the price.. There is where the difference is.. I go the extra mile to help the customer, and the manufacturer has my back on the product...

Now go to car.. as ive stated in earlier posts, i worked for Kenwood, when we had a tough month, we just call up OUR GUY in Mexico, he has no problem fedexing a blank check for Kenwood to fill in.. Believe me, ive wrote in the numbers, 300,000 was chump change... and then we move on to the REP/DISTRIBUTOR.. They are the rep/d for the lower states, having a slow month, #'s not hitting, then they tranship several thousand dollars to the unauthorized distributor down the street.. what happens, they get at below the authorized dealers, then the unauthorized dist. sell to anyone who will buy, and thats the unauthorized guys.. so of course the line starts to get watered down.. Look at EXCELON.. it used to be the ****, and was tough to get, hell now its everywhere and anywhere, a good day at Traders Village and you can start a shop of your own.... 

Damn im tired of rambling..


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## Fricasseekid

So you think nowadays shops have a lack of ambition, costumer service, and integrity because they are tired of getting jacked around by the dealers? 

The reason I started this thread is because after a bad experience at most of my local shops I put the blame on the changing costumer base. Nobody wants to fork over top dollar for competition stereo any more. We (the audiophiles) are few and far between. My best friend just forked over $3k on all JL and Focal gear for his civic. Well I think it sounds like **** and it's the shops fault. They shouldve told him his amp might cut out, they couldve suggested dynamat and baffles for his comps, they couldve built a better box for his W7 10s. He is pissed that they didnt tell him that his top end gear wouldn't sound top end. But when I showed him how he would have to deaden and seal the door and build pods or baffles his response was "wow that's seems like alot of work...". 

He doesnt give a ****, he's just into labels an money, but our local shop couldve done the install right for just an extra few hundred. That's ********!


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## kkreit01

I live in a fairly large metro area (KC), and I have 1 shop within a 30-mi radius. Their high-end line is JL.


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## Fricasseekid

So early on in this thread it was suggested to me to approach shop owners from this angle: "Hello, I'm looking for (blank) and I like the Internet prices but prefer to support local shops and service, any chance you can work with me on the price?" 

I got treated like a joke! I'm sure there are shop owners out there who understand what loyalty can do for business and that loyalty comes at a price but **** all my local shop owners. None of them want to have competitive rates and the one shop I went to that did do decent custom installs were very snobby. I'm done with the shop experience. Warranty or not shop guys aren't worth it to deal with. Save for the few honorable guys out there (whoever you are) the majority are nothing but salesmen looking to line thier pockets (4 ga.- $3/ft.-- **** that, I got bills to pay too). Id rather risk buying my crap from HabuDabu in Mexico, if not just out of spite! I dont care if they all go out of business. Every local shop in Baton Rouge, LA has left me with a bad taste in my mouth!!!!

I even mentioned belonging to an audio forum and got chuckles saying "don't listen to the guys on forums, dot believe what you read on the internet!". Why would they say that? Aren't alot of you guys shop owners yourselves?

I'm like really?! "Are your $300 dollar bass kits the most you got going on these days? **** you!" I felt like an idiot!


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## jsun_g

Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel LOL.

At least you found a shop that HAD 4-ga wire (that was for sale anyway).
I had gotten tired of going to shops and the sales guy wanted to know what I was running, and when he had a look at my setup and it wasn't the brands they were carrying, he begain mentioning how infinitely better the brands they carry are than what was in my ride. Hifonics VIII, WTF is that? Go with our Sony Explode - it puts out 1100 watts.





Fricasseekid said:


> So early on in this thread it was suggested to me to approach shop owners from this angle: "Hello, I'm looking for (blank) and I like the Internet prices but prefer to support local shops and service, any chance you can work with me on the price?"
> 
> I got treated like a joke! I'm sure there are shop owners out there who understand what loyalty can do for business and that loyalty comes at a price but **** all my local shop owners. None of them want to have competitive rates and the one shop I went to that did do decent custom installs were very snobby. I'm done with the shop experience. Warranty or not shop guys aren't worth it to deal with. Save for the few honorable guys out there (whoever you are) the majority are nothing but salesmen looking to line thier pockets (4 ga.- $3/ft.-- **** that, I got bills to pay too). Id rather risk buying my crap from HabuDabu in Mexico, if not just out of spite! I dont care if they all go out of business. Every local shop in Baton Rouge, LA has left me with a bad taste in my mouth!!!!
> 
> I even mentioned belonging to an audio forum and got chuckles saying "don't listen to the guys on forums, dot believe what you read on the internet!". Why would they say that? Aren't alot of you guys shop owners yourselves?
> 
> I'm like really?! "Are your $300 dollar bass kits the most you got going on these days? **** you!" I felt like an idiot!


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## Fricasseekid

jsun_g said:


> Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel LOL.
> 
> At least you found a shop that HAD 4-ga wire (that was for sale anyway).
> I had gotten tired of going to shops and the sales guy wanted to know what I was running, and when he had a look at my setup and it wasn't the brands they were carrying, he begain mentioning how infinitely better the brands they carry are than what was in my ride. Hifonics VIII, WTF is that? Go with our Sony Explode - it puts out 1100 watts.


Yup! I ran into some of that as well. I got to rappin with one shop owner who's high end gear was T3, which I know nothing about, and he told me they just quit selling Phoenix Gold cause nobody was buying it. Well anyways, we some how got on the topic of subs and I mentioned that I was holding out for some of the Stereo Integrity BM Mark III, I also spit out a few of the speakers parameters and he dare scoff... He said, "yeah well I've heard alot of stuff on the interenet and most of it turns out to be ********", then he said something about there being only 8 acoustical engineers in the world... I left before I had to hear the ******** about his products being the only good brands out there, yada yada, blah blah....


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## Fricasseekid

Another sad tale from the shop...

My buddy just dropped $3k on all Focal and JL gear for his civic. The install is the kinda work I did in highschool at best; ****ty prefab box, no baffles on the components, no deadener, didn't seal the doors, didn't sell him the right size amp, the whole car vibrates like a ghetto cruiser...
He wouldve spent more money on these things, but he was ignorant about this stuff and they didn't inform him at all! All they wanted was to sell him gear, slap it in, and send him down the road! 
The worst part was when he went back to inquire about tuning he found out that his head unit had just come out with a new model that has Pandora access, (he has a JVC touch screen, not sure what model). He wanted to buy it from them and they told him that they wouldnt install it because the other unit barely fit in his dash and if they took his dash apart again something was likely to break; (this was two weeks after they told him they couldnt install an auxiliary jack cause it wouldn't fit); sounds like David's car stereo of Baton Rouge knew more than they were letting on... That's ********! There isn't anything a shop does that I can't learn to do myself and probably do better!


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## Angrywhopper

I can understand your frustration, but understand that there are many, many honest good shops that are still around.


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## Fricasseekid

cajunner said:


> let me give you the reasoning:
> 
> shop owner sees a guy with deep pockets in his store, gives him a look-see. Sales guys have to be able to cut and run from the browsers and the tire-kickers, the looky-loo's, the kids and the downtrodden with scam written on their foreheads.
> 
> owner sends this guy his top seller to get a read, (cue Pretty Woman scene with snotty sales clerks) and if the guy was worth his salt he sees a mark, ready for a fleecing.
> 
> long conversation gets down to "so, you think this 3400 bucks is a good system?" and "it's what you need to be where you want to be" and then the sales guy makes the call. Do you push for deadening? Do you make the customer pay for extras like panel strengthening, door sealing, trunk rumble mat, or does this guy look like he's about at the bottom of his stack?
> 
> well, your guy got the salesman who determined that pushing for any more in the install would mean losing his fish, and the one thing a shop can't afford is to lose that fish...
> 
> so, it's not just bad work on the install, or too high retail and not coming to between MAP and Internet prices, sometimes it hinges on the sales side of the fence, it's a numbers game and before letting someone out the door by selling too much, they take a half-done install as a given so they can move to the next.


I understand all that. But you can either flees your sheep (AKA take care of them) or you can cut their throat (AKA go for the hard sell). My buddy didn't get sheered, he got cut, and sheering is better for business. Just because it's a numbers game doesn't make it right. He has a $3k system that sounds like crap. He is pissed cause I just installed a $92 set of comps that walk all over his $600 Focals! I've worked in sales before, and I know there is a difference between informing your clients and upselling the ticket. In this case money was all that mattered and there is no honor/customer service in that! The truth is they don't give a **** cause they probably have a higher profit margin on the equipment than they would on the more complex install! End result: he didn't get what he thought he was paying for.

And what about them saying they can't go back into his dash? That's pretty shady don't you think?


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## Fricasseekid

BTW it was the owner of said business who made the sale and her son (who also works there) told him, before they were even done installing his gear, "Your system won't be as good as mine". Right after he dropped $3k! The nerve of that kid....


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## Chaos

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

Audiophiles are NOT a dying breed, but there has been paradigm shift in the mobile electronics market in general away from custom hi-fi as costs go up and demand goes down for those applications.

These days, multimedia and convenience features are the profitable market segments, and so that is what traditional "car stereo" shops are going to stock & sell.

Those of us who are still willing to put the extra time/effort/money into mobile audio will continue to do so as DIYers because it makes more sense to do that than to risk leaving your vehicle in the hands of a bunch of hacks somewhere that have no experience or desire to do custom work.


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## dman

LOL, this thread is killing me..the more i read it..

I cannot seriously be the only guy who treated his customers good... brick and morter stores have bills to pay to be able to stay in business, so of course their prices will be higher.. And good shops will pay their installers MORE to be able to keep them, and even more so if they are GOOD... Listen i never had a issue with people coming in and telling me they found this stuff on the internet, etc... My issues were with the ones who stated they wanted a $2500 system, and had $300 in their pocket to do it with.. That was a joke, what they could buy for $300 on the net, was nowhere the quality, or even brand that i had for $2500... If someone came in and demanded a top knotch system for pennies, and was a rude ass of a person, they could go right back out the door.. I had no problem with that....

BUT, if a guy came in (and yes several in this situation), and explained to me what he has found on the net, and was hoping to get close, i would take my time personally with him (as well as my sales guys), and would be more than happy to explain to him i could not match certain prices, but some i could actually BEAT, but i wanted to let that customer know, he was important to me, regardless of amount spent, and i would do my best to be competitive. You may end up being more by a little or a lot, but if that customer really seen that he was going to get first rate service, and most important, GREAT follow up service, then he usually had no problem spending the extra money in your shop. It really comes down to how you treat that customer... what extra can you do for him, etc.... We even had a policy if we installed your stuff, and you changed your vehicle, we would completely remove your gear from your old car completely free of charge, and install into your new car (discounted installation charge)... you really have to come up with things that will set you apart from the internet dealers and or stores... A customer wants to feel appreciated.. after all, doesnt a good shop want to be bragged on and feel appreciated after a bad ass install... Why not give the customer the same respect and appreciation.. My policy has always been,,,,,, I NEED that customer, he/she paid my bills, without that customer, i would have no business.... If a shop ever thinks they dont need a customer, or they can pick and choose their customers, they are wrong... And it sincerely hurts to read some of this, and to think some brick and morter shops act like they do... It makes me want to go back out and invest in a shop.. I just dont know.. Im at a loss for some words right now, lol.. I know doesnt look like it huh  ... Any way guys, im sure there are still special shops out there, dont just assume they are all bad..


----------



## Fricasseekid

@Dman

Well I'm glad cause it seems like you understand that my rants aren't meant to offend anyone. It makes me happy to know that there might still be some shops out there willing to sell "the whole experience". They just don't exist where I live unfortunately. 

Let me ask you this: if I came into your shop explaining that I was looking for a local place to do my future business, but all I needed at that moment was a distro block, some 4 ga., and RCAs, could you do better than 70$? That was the price I got offered as their bottom line. 

I ended buying only the 4 ga. elsewhere and that shop charged me $2.50/ft and handed me some black wire telling me that's all they had. I was pissed! For that price I should be able to get the right color wire right? 

I understand what it must look like to them. A young guy comes in looking to hustle them over 10 ft. of wire. But what they don't understand is that I was testing thier ability to work with me and offer me the type of customer service I was seeking. They all failed....


----------



## dman

Fricasseekid said:


> @Dman
> 
> Well I'm glad cause it seems like you understand that my rants aren't meant to offend anyone. It makes me happy to know that there might still be some shops out there willing to sell "the whole experience". They just don't exist where I live unfortunately.
> 
> Let me ask you this: if I came into your shop explaining that I was looking for a local place to do my future business, but all I needed at that moment was a distro block, some 4 ga., and RCAs, could you do better than 70$? That was the price I got offered as their bottom line.
> 
> I ended buying only the 4 ga. elsewhere and that shop charged me $2.50/ft and handed me some black wire telling me that's all they had. I was pissed! For that price I should be able to get the right color wire right?
> 
> I understand what it must look like to them. A young guy comes in looking to hustle them over 10 ft. of wire. But what they don't understand is that I was testing thier ability to work with me and offer me the type of customer service I was seeking. They all failed....



Well i def. differed on this point.... I had 2 walls commited to accessories, not only amp kits, etc, but rolls of wire, all colors and sizes, then if you went to the install shop, you seen another wall full of rolls of wires, and several rolls of factory color coded wiring.. I was a accessory nut, LOL.. Anyway, i would need to know what you wanted, then i would direct you to what would best suit your needs and budget... Now some were alot higher than others depending on brand, but i would try to help you out, regardless of what you bought... Now the good thing about power wire, in 10' and under especially, i had... Alot of our bigger installs, was cheaper to sell the customer a ROLL, then per ft. pricing for a bigger install.. and we usually had feet left over, and it went into a area of the install shop, where we used scrap etc.. If i had in back, i would give to customer like you, as its a extra, know what i mean..

You know another thing we did... Our local police departments (as well as other city personnel) we gave immediate discounts too, keep the police happy, they like to keep eye on your shop, and believe me they take personnal if you had a break in or other issue, they stayed on top of... But also my biggest thing, Any high school students and college with school ID, got top rate discounts... Reward our young people trying to get a education.


----------



## Fricasseekid

See, I like what you preach! But it seems so distant to the picture I have in front of me, almost idealistic. 

That's what pissed me off about the wire thing so much. I knew he had red wire on hand. So I also knew that ge was probably selling me some scrap he had laying around, at full price. If I had a shop I promise I would treat a $5 customer the same as a $5k customer. 

But until I run my own shop, I'm done with the whole shop experience. I can't support poor customer service at my own expense. If I'm gonna pay extra for shop prices, then I wanna get something extra, I wanna be treated like I matter. But I guess that's asking too much.


----------



## dman

I understand.. Sometimes us shops only get one chance to make a impression, but keep in mind sometimes as a customer, you only have one chance to make a impression as well... you get sincerety when sincerety in shown.. shop and customer have to believe in each other.. A good salesman will sniff out a person wanting to get over on them, as a good minded customer can sniff out a shop out to get over on them.. You respect each other, understand the shop has to make a living and pay his bills and his employees, and the customer has limited resources or needs to do things in stages, try to work together, and it usually works out... 

Shops NEED to UNDERSTAND, car audio is not a NECCESSITY in life, but a LUXERY.. Customers DONT need it, but they WANT it.....

You give me 100 customers who walk through the door, and we close some kind of deal on 90-95 of them..

Why you ask? I think we had great pricing, we were fair, I had good people who could relate to a customer, but most customers are not out spending a ton of time researching and looking for a particular brand or product..... Car Audio for the most part is a IMPULSE BUY... We understood that as a shop... We would get a ton of people just on a lunch break, seen the shop and made a quick stop.... or a weekend they were out doing something, and thought, hell i will stop in there and see how much a radio will cost... Again a impulse buy... And 9 out of 10 shops will lose that impulse buyer because they did not have something in that shop that the customer wanted.. I stocked HEAVY, dash kits for example, i pretty much had every kit Metra had in stock, and at leasst 5 deep on most used kits like ford, gm, honda, etc. and as deep on harnesses etc... If a customer stopped in on a IMPULSE and wanted a radio, the last thing they wanted to hear was, "Let me order you a dash kit and harness for your car" but if i said, ive got everything is stock for you and can squeeze you in right away.. 99% of time, they were excited and said "Lets DO IT"... of course sometimes you cant do a install that day, but if they know you got the stuff, you sell them, and schedule a install. Sometimes we even picked up car, or gave customer ride to work or whatever, or even the occasional mobile install.. Try to do what it take to both get the sale, and make the customer happy... An impulse buyer is just that, they make a impulse decision to buy something, and if you dont have, they will look elsewhere....


----------



## Radius

dman said:


> LOL, this thread is killing me..the more i read it..
> 
> I cannot seriously be the only guy who treated his customers good...


No you are not.. Read below...



dman said:


> BUT, if a guy came in (and yes several in this situation), and explained to me what he has found on the net, and was hoping to get close, i would take my time personally with him (as well as my sales guys), and would be more than happy to explain to him i could not match certain prices, but some i could actually BEAT, but i wanted to let that customer know, he was important to me, regardless of amount spent, and i would do my best to be competitive. You may end up being more by a little or a lot, but if that customer really seen that he was going to get first rate service, and most important, GREAT follow up service, then he usually had no problem spending the extra money in your shop. It really comes down to how you treat that customer... what extra can you do for him, etc......


I've been a lurker here for a long long time. This thread got me to register so this is my first post here. 

Ironic that you should mention this, as well as your previous posts in this thread regarding the Excelon line.

The reason why it's ironic is that I just did that exact same thing yesterday. Here's the scenario. I do a LOT of research when I am in the market for something. I establish a list of must have items and optional items, then I go looking for what fits. Once I find what fits I narrow it down. 

I've spent weeks researching HU's lately and really wanted to take a look at the Excelon KDC-X995. The unit was in my price range and did what I wanted it to do. Now the guys at my local shop were totally cool about me spending 2 hours playing with the unit in their showroom. Answered my questions, I figured out stuff about the deck they didn't know, etc. Basically left me be to play with the deck.

So I took a look and was terribly disappointed. The display was terrible in that if you were just the right amount off axis to the display it turned into a colored blob. The user interface was also terrible with the built in EQ settings buried multiple layers deep in the menu. Knowing that these are functions I use the most with the exception of the volume control, this was unacceptable. Especially when trying to adjust something while going down the highway. 

So that caused me to reevaluate my requirements. I figure I could modify the Metra kit for my Mazda 6 to fit a double din, and this opened up the possibility of a NAV and multimedia HU. So after more researching I found out that there really isn't the "perfect" NAV Multimedia HU out there but the Excelon DNX9980HD was the closest match even though I would be paying for features I wouldn't use. So I went shopping.

I wanted to outfit the HU with all the bells and whistles - the backup cam, the Sirius cable, the Ecoroute HD unit (rebadged Garmin part) etc. So I shopped and shopped and found the best prices I could find on all the pieces online - whether authorized dealer or not. 

I went back to my local shop. Of course they remembered me because of the time I spent there the last time. They knew I was not the typical know nothing kid they get in there since I spent a ton of time evaluating the deck and asking the right questions.

So I basically said hey, I reevaluated what I am looking for and I want to play with this unit, and if I like it, I'd like to talk about a package deal. So I played and I liked it and made up my mind to buy the unit. I told the shop straight out that I wanted to buy from an authorized dealer because of the warranty concerns. This is an assload of $$ for me to spend and it's a pretty complicated piece of gear. If something breaks I want my ass covered. I also told them that I prefer to do business locally but the numbers have to make sense. I laid out for them what I had found with pricing and asked them if they could get close. I did not count shipping and I did not count tax, since in the end the tax would be more but there is nothing the shop can do about sales tax. At the end of the day, the shop was within $200 of what I could do online. 

Sure, they did it a different way. I paid MSRP for the HU, but I got "credit" back in the way of discounts and free accessory gear, even the PAC steering wheel controls. So in the end, I paid $200 more for the gear, about about $70 more in tax and I bought it local.

What did I achieve? Well, some of my $$ went to local taxes which pay for things like roads, schools, cops, fire, etc, etc. The rest went to support a local shop that I have now established a rapport with. If I have questions, need advice, or whatever, I can go there and get the support I need.

What did the shop get? A customer. Will I buy everything there? No. Mainly because the brands they carry for the rest of the stuff I want are not what I am looking for or are overpriced IMHO. But other stuff? Probably. Will I send my friends there? Yes. I'm a Service Manager at a Ford dealer. Will I send *my* customers there and send them work? You bet.

Sorry to make this so long for my first post here in DIYMA. I guess I should count myself as lucky that I have a decent shop where I live.

Thanks for reading..

Michael


----------



## Radius

cajunner said:


> this is the part you might not see, but if they knew you were affiliated with a car dealership they would have probably set their nuts on fire if it made you happy.
> 
> I don't discount your enthusiasm but you're prospecting with a gold hammer when you can say "yeah, I'm looking to save a little money, oh, btw.... I'm a service manager down at Big Rod's Ford... now, about these internet prices.."


Hahahaha! Very true. I completely see that point of view and it's a valid point. 

However, I had no need to tell them where I worked or what I did beforehand as it really didn't have any bearing. I did, however, tell them *after* I paid my bill and told them that I would be sending them whatever I could as I was happy with my dealings with them.

If that benefits me in the future then hey so be it. But at least to start with it was an honest account of a shop trying to work with it's customers.

Michael


----------



## Radius

cajunner said:


> well, I'm a cynic...
> 
> 
> 
> but good to hear that you climbed out of your local B and M's lair with nary a scratch from the pricing scuffle.
> 
> I've been in many shops, and one thing I have noticed is if you ask for the clearance table when you walk in, you get to browse without any real interference from the sales guys.


Welcome to Cynic's Anonymous! I am too, which is why I had a good chuckle at your post. I knew that would come up. 

None of the shops around here have a clearance table unfortunately. Like you though, I have found that if I start to talk the talk to any of the sales people they generally leave me alone once they realize I am not the average basshead coming in to find out what will hit harder than my buddy's system.

It's interesting how a lot of places don't have any shops or if they do they're very poor shops. There are 3 well established shops in my area, plus a new one that just opened up and a Car Toys is coming to town according to what I hear. This is NOT a large metropolitan area. There is still a LOT of agricultural dollars in our economy. I wonder if CA is really doing that well here to support 4 small B&M shops and a larger chain shop.

Michael


----------



## dman

Radius said:


> No you are not.. Read below...
> 
> 
> 
> I've been a lurker here for a long long time. This thread got me to register so this is my first post here.
> 
> Ironic that you should mention this, as well as your previous posts in this thread regarding the Excelon line.
> 
> The reason why it's ironic is that I just did that exact same thing yesterday. Here's the scenario. I do a LOT of research when I am in the market for something. I establish a list of must have items and optional items, then I go looking for what fits. Once I find what fits I narrow it down.
> 
> I've spent weeks researching HU's lately and really wanted to take a look at the Excelon KDC-X995. The unit was in my price range and did what I wanted it to do. Now the guys at my local shop were totally cool about me spending 2 hours playing with the unit in their showroom. Answered my questions, I figured out stuff about the deck they didn't know, etc. Basically left me be to play with the deck.
> 
> So I took a look and was terribly disappointed. The display was terrible in that if you were just the right amount off axis to the display it turned into a colored blob. The user interface was also terrible with the built in EQ settings buried multiple layers deep in the menu. Knowing that these are functions I use the most with the exception of the volume control, this was unacceptable. Especially when trying to adjust something while going down the highway.
> 
> So that caused me to reevaluate my requirements. I figure I could modify the Metra kit for my Mazda 6 to fit a double din, and this opened up the possibility of a NAV and multimedia HU. So after more researching I found out that there really isn't the "perfect" NAV Multimedia HU out there but the Excelon DNX9980HD was the closest match even though I would be paying for features I wouldn't use. So I went shopping.
> 
> I wanted to outfit the HU with all the bells and whistles - the backup cam, the Sirius cable, the Ecoroute HD unit (rebadged Garmin part) etc. So I shopped and shopped and found the best prices I could find on all the pieces online - whether authorized dealer or not.
> 
> I went back to my local shop. Of course they remembered me because of the time I spent there the last time. They knew I was not the typical know nothing kid they get in there since I spent a ton of time evaluating the deck and asking the right questions.
> 
> So I basically said hey, I reevaluated what I am looking for and I want to play with this unit, and if I like it, I'd like to talk about a package deal. So I played and I liked it and made up my mind to buy the unit. I told the shop straight out that I wanted to buy from an authorized dealer because of the warranty concerns. This is an assload of $$ for me to spend and it's a pretty complicated piece of gear. If something breaks I want my ass covered. I also told them that I prefer to do business locally but the numbers have to make sense. I laid out for them what I had found with pricing and asked them if they could get close. I did not count shipping and I did not count tax, since in the end the tax would be more but there is nothing the shop can do about sales tax. At the end of the day, the shop was within $200 of what I could do online.
> 
> Sure, they did it a different way. I paid MSRP for the HU, but I got "credit" back in the way of discounts and free accessory gear, even the PAC steering wheel controls. So in the end, I paid $200 more for the gear, about about $70 more in tax and I bought it local.
> 
> What did I achieve? Well, some of my $$ went to local taxes which pay for things like roads, schools, cops, fire, etc, etc. The rest went to support a local shop that I have now established a rapport with. If I have questions, need advice, or whatever, I can go there and get the support I need.
> 
> What did the shop get? A customer. Will I buy everything there? No. Mainly because the brands they carry for the rest of the stuff I want are not what I am looking for or are overpriced IMHO. But other stuff? Probably. Will I send my friends there? Yes. I'm a Service Manager at a Ford dealer. Will I send *my* customers there and send them work? You bet.
> 
> Sorry to make this so long for my first post here in DIYMA. I guess I should count myself as lucky that I have a decent shop where I live.
> 
> Thanks for reading..
> 
> Michael


Well, i disagree with some posts saying to use your position at Ford to try to leverage more.. Doesnt quite work that way for me. If that started coming up, then its time for me to pass... I mean after all, your TECHS going to work at reduced pricing because i own a shop.. I mean come on, we got families to feed...

What i do like, IS the WAY you HANDLED it, AND the way the shop handled it.. Your my kind of customer.. honest up front, and the shop i believe treated you right.... And they did the correct thing... Its more important to show the sale around the MSRP or MAP pricing EXCELON and KENWOOD require... I mean RED flags go up everywhere when you see paperwork with a cost or close to cost price on it. They made up the difference by discounting other things.. Thats just smart business...

But, now is the time both you and the shop could work together... You say you would never use shop again probably... Well if you were my customer, and i noticed everytime you needed something or wanted a upgrade, i would start to realize you are a loyal customer, I would make sure you got the best deal, and fair labor to install or whatever.. One it keeps a happy customer coming back, Two it keeps my guys busy at least.. So a win win...

I also dealt with several local Ford, Chevy, Toyota, and other dealerships around... Ford especially, and the used car lot at Ford was great... The manager down there always sent customers down, alot of times, we did minor audio upgrades and was financed through the sale and we were cut a check from the Ford dealership.. Both NEW and USED.... its a workable relationship.. I ended up offering cost + a small % of anything the sales team wanted installed in their own car...

Anyway, very happy you got to where you needed to be...


----------



## dman

I forgot to mention.. The only thing that did bother me on the post, is you seemed to have been teaching a bit on the excelon head unit, as if the sales guys or gals didnt know all the features.... I will say this, when i had my shops, KENWOOD (especially EXCELON) has the absolute best training there was... EVERY single region has sales training put on by kenwood.. This is a ABSOLUTE FACT... A ton of shops dont like to attend.. Its usually held at your local distributor, whether your factory direct or a dist. account... It is usually a evening event lasting 2 days. like 4-9pm each day, food is catered in, and there is nothing but technical training covering every inch of the head units, then the amps.. And every one i went too, you got books done by kenwood, like training manuals for KENWOOD EXCELON for DUMMIES, lol.. not that bad, but it detailed alot of things.. All my sales guys, AND installers were REQUIRED to ATTEND.... As well as me.. That was just me.. alot of shops DONT send anyone, or if they do, they send one guy, and brings back some literature that is never read...


----------



## Radius

dman said:


> Well, i disagree with some posts saying to use your position at Ford to try to leverage more.. Doesnt quite work that way for me.


Me either, which is why I didn't mention it until *after* the sale.



dman said:


> But, now is the time both you and the shop could work together... You say you would never use shop again probably...


That's not exactly what I said. What I said was would I buy everything I needed there? No, probably not. But would I buy other stuff there? Yes. 

What I meant by that is that the brands they carry for some of the items I am looking for - speakers, amps, etc, are not what I prefer and the pricing on them is higher than I want to spend. They are not going to discount a set of $600 Focals down to $200 and I understand that. We all have a budget and the rest of the gear they have is above my budget and honestly I spent more for the HU and associated goodies than I had planned for, so I gotta save somewhere else. That's life. 

Besides all that I don't like the sound of the Focals they carry very much. Very muddy to my ear - but that's a different subject. 

Now other stuff I may need like cables, wire, specialty connectors, etc, I will probably buy from them. Maybe a new cap, etc. Mainly little stuff. But then little stuff is better than nothing. 



dman said:


> Well if you were my customer, and i noticed everytime you needed something or wanted a upgrade, i would start to realize you are a loyal customer, I would make sure you got the best deal, and fair labor to install or whatever.. One it keeps a happy customer coming back, Two it keeps my guys busy at least.. So a win win...
> 
> I also dealt with several local Ford, Chevy, Toyota, and other dealerships around... Ford especially, and the used car lot at Ford was great... The manager down there always sent customers down, alot of times, we did minor audio upgrades and was financed through the sale and we were cut a check from the Ford dealership.. Both NEW and USED.... its a workable relationship.. I ended up offering cost + a small % of anything the sales team wanted installed in their own car...
> 
> Anyway, very happy you got to where you needed to be...


Agree 100% on the last 2 paragraphs. 

Michael


----------



## SoulFly

i think most audiophiles in general are more into the home theater stuff. Personally when it comes to sound quality, i'd rather focus more money into home audio than car, simply because more time is spent and enjoyed in the home with actual 5.1 sources and not Mp3's/stereo sources. Plus its far more simpler and easier to setup a good Home system with room for big subs.


----------



## Radius

dman said:


> I forgot to mention.. The only thing that did bother me on the post, is you seemed to have been teaching a bit on the excelon head unit, as if the sales guys or gals didnt know all the features.... I will say this, when i had my shops, KENWOOD (especially EXCELON) has the absolute best training there was... EVERY single region has sales training put on by kenwood.. This is a ABSOLUTE FACT... A ton of shops dont like to attend.. Its usually held at your local distributor, whether your factory direct or a dist. account... It is usually a evening event lasting 2 days. like 4-9pm each day, food is catered in, and there is nothing but technical training covering every inch of the head units, then the amps.. And every one i went too, you got books done by kenwood, like training manuals for KENWOOD EXCELON for DUMMIES, lol.. not that bad, but it detailed alot of things.. All my sales guys, AND installers were REQUIRED to ATTEND.... As well as me.. That was just me.. alot of shops DONT send anyone, or if they do, they send one guy, and brings back some literature that is never read...



I understand that point 100% and somewhat agree with you.

But, on the other hand, I also understand that these units now a days have gotten *SO damn complicated* that it's nearly impossible to keep up with all of the features of every head unit a shop may carry. This shop carries Alpine, JVC, Kenwood, etc. They knew enough for the average Billy Bob Basshead, but when someone like me comes along and starts asking esoteric questions about the sound contouring ability of the unit and where the adjustments are buried in the menus, or where's this? How do you do that? etc, I can understand that they didn't know it all. 

I mean really, in today's market with the average customer, who's going to come in and start asking questions about the time shift alignment DSP features of this deck, etc. I bet maybe 5% on a good day? Most customers walk in the door and say: "I'm looking for a CD player I can hook my ipod up to. Whatcha got?" 

So I'm willing to give the guys the benefit of the doubt. Besides, it's really MY job as a consumer to be educated about what I am shopping for. Sure the sales people should be able to help me and they did. Hell just the fact that they left me alone to play with the deck for 2 hours is a helluva credit to them.

Michael


----------



## Radius

SoulFly said:


> i think most audiophiles in general are more into the home theater stuff. Personally when it comes to sound quality, i'd rather focus more money into home audio than car, simply because more time is spent and enjoyed in the home with actual 5.1 sources and not Mp3's/stereo sources. Plus its far more simpler and easier to setup a good Home system with room for big subs.


Agree 100% with this. 

I'm an audiophile with champagne taste on a beer budget. I do what I can, buy the best gear I can with the money I have to work with and build the rest. Hence the 2 sub boxes I just built for my HT setup. 

Which is why I'm not gonna drop $600 for a set of Focals. 

On the other hand, exposing non audiophiles to good equipment intelligently designed and implemented can change people. Especially when you managed to do it on a budget. They are amazed that you got what you got for what you spent. My fiance is a good example. She cared not one whit about SQ until she heard my Focus and honestly the system in my Focus really isn't that good! Now that I picked up my keeper car and I'm going to be disassembling the Focus guess where my unused gear is gonna go? Yup, you guessed it. Into her Scion cause she wants a decent system now too. Hmmmm... What have I created? 

Michael


----------



## dman

i agree with alot of the posts... The main part of this whole thread was what i was hearing on how shops treated customers... And im sorry, its very important to ME, that my sales guys know more than that consumer... its a MUST to me... sure leaving people alone to play is fine, but when a question arises, damn i hope my guys have the instant answer.. And the consumer can educate themselves or come get educated, doesnt matter.. were in customer service as a shop, whether we like to admit it or not, it is OUR job to educate that customer.. find out what he's looking for, and direct him in that area, no sense in MY opinion to oversale a guy, you just may lose him.... people want to make the quick buck now days, and prefer not to WORK at it... Hell i do ok for myself, am i rich, hell NO, but i can feed the family and i enjoy what i do, and even got a few dollars left over.... But i got there by being honest and hard working... Not trying to imply anyone out there is different, just some work harder at it than others..... Hell i will go the EXTRA mile.. I delivered a customers car to them at 1:30 in the morning last week, a damn near hour drive, but that was our only option that was good for the customer, and good for the customer is important to me... With any field out there your gonna find GOOD and BAD, its just the way the world works.... That even goes for FORD SERVICE WORK... you got some good, and as i found out, a BAD apple, but we gotta be as positive as we can... I can tell you guys out there that find a bad shop, there is surely one out there that would APPRECIATE your business.... just dont give up if your first trip was the bad apple...


----------



## dummptyhummpty

Fricasseekid said:


> I even mentioned belonging to an audio forum and got chuckles saying "don't listen to the guys on forums, dot believe what you read on the internet!". Why would they say that? Aren't alot of you guys shop owners yourselves?


This reminded me of the local shop that screwed up my doors. I had mentioned my research online and I was told "most of the time, DIY guys actually can't do it themselves" or something like that. I find it funny since I twice asked them to install my speakers a certain way (based on my research online), and twice they were unable to do so. Guess who gets to clean up the mess? ME!

Because of this I can't bring myself to go to another audio shop. All the shops around here are just about what they can sell and not about the install or knowledge. There was one shop I would have returned to, but they went out of business. When I asked one of the guys (who I knew from high school) he told me, "there just isn't a market for high end car audio anymore". Something to think about...

There was some mention above about shops not keeping up on OEM integration. I used to work at a local stereo shop and then at Best Buy (in computers though) and it used to drive me crazy when they would take the cheap route (FM modulator) or say they couldn't do something because of the factory system when in fact I knew it could easily be done with an adapter (This was when Dension/Dice had just come out). Personally, I love the challenge of integrating with factory systems and I wish I was able to leverage that to make some extra money.


----------



## sqshoestring

It is a tough business. Back in the late 80s the place I was at did everything including a lot of dealer work. I mean they did: vinyl tops, had a full upholstery shop with carpet to leather, tinting, glass, sold performance parts like holley/accell/msd/headers/accessories/you name it, the stereo shop did audio and roll/light bars in trucks, cruise controls, alarms, nerf bars and running boards, off road lights, various wings and wind deflectors, brush guards, mudflaps, just about anything else sold in the store that a mechanic would not bolt on. They also had a full time electronics tech. They went out of biz in the 90s but I think more from management than anything else. They sold out actually and the new place closed that up.

On the other hand a couple years ago I paid a dealer $90/hr and they lost a bolt to my aircleaner after a $1K job. A little ~1" metric bolt. The guy came out and put a roofing self drilling bolt in it that stuck out right at my tire about 2" away. It was like a 3-4" bolt that took the threads out of the clip of course. Having been into autobody I could hardly believe it...or believe they had a f roofing screw at a dealer. Maybe it was the carwash kid I don't know, but piss poor and that is the good dealer in the area.

I could not find my amp guy once, finally one day I figure I will learn how to work on amps. So I did. I fixed a lot of old amps including mine but I don't even want to accept people's amps. I do it when I can and sell them, on my schedule. There is no money in it, you might as well buy another amp. Back in say 1990 it was what 350+ for a 2x100 LP? I figured it out once it was over 800 in today's money. Sure you could afford to have it repaired, but no longer.


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## Mr12voltwires

mmiller said:


> Is the audiophile a dying breed?
> 
> No but aftermarket Car Audio is.....
> 
> Factory systems are getting better, and far harder to integrate aftermarket gear into.
> 
> Its a Paradigm shift that has been a long time coming!


Well put. I agree completely. :beerchug:


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## PPI_GUY

In the late 80's and early 90's my small town had 3 audio shops. The main store carried Orion, RF, Kicker, etc. The next store carried Alpine, Kenwood, Coustic, Boston, etc. The absolute busiest store in town carried Pyramid, Pyle, Legacy, Profile, etc. My point? People have always been cheap. It's the race to zero. But, a good portion of the market for high-end car audio has disappeared or lost interest. The local flea markets are full of guys selling junk equipment. Evidently the market is there or so many wouldn't be doing it. 
The only local store with authorized brands operating currently has seen their car audio business replaced by marine sales and window tinting. The owner told me they rarely do custom installs anymore. Everything is pre-fab boxes. They don't even try to compete with online companies. I priced a JL XD600/1 at this store for $399 plus tax. I can get the same amp online for less (sale or discount code) from an authorized dealer (Crutchfield) with free shipping, no taxes and a wiring kit included. I asked the local guy if he could help me out on the price any and he just laughed. He didn't even know many of the specs on the amp and he is the co-owner of the store.
So, what I am saying is the current sorry state of aftermarket car audio is a combination of the buying public seeing junk at their local Walmart and thinking that stuff is OK and those prices are what they should pay everywhere for ANY car audio equipment. PLUS, shops becoming LAZY and simply assuming everyone who walks in the door has no knowledge of what they are shopping for. There are also the simple things like customer service; maybe a few feet of free wire with an amp purchase or a discount on an install kit. There are so many ways to seal the deal. Just because someone owns a business doesn't mean they are good business people. You have to constantly be thinking a few steps ahead. Because you can bet the competition certainly is.


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## BuickGN

I used to be a brick and mortar type but it was the brick and mortar shops that pushed me toward the internet. My local shop will hook me up big time price wise most of the time. It's the total lack of product knowledge and support that drove me away. Only a year or so ago I was trying to get into car audio and I had no idea what I wanted, what brands were good, I didn't even know what a crossover was. They offered no help at all. 

I discovered Jerry (niebur3) and spent a ton of time on the phone with him before I ever purchased anything. Jerry, along with DIYMA gave me a quick basic education. Jerry knows his products and not only suggested products based on what I wanted, he gave me the reasons why so I could make up my own mind. This service kills any brick and mortar shop around here. I get free technical support and great prices. He knew I was installing my 430s yesterday and first thing this morning he asked me how I like them and also notified me that I had reversed the polarity:blush: I've never had a local place call me to ask how the product was working and if I needed any help with it. The odd part is the local place is a lot colder and less friendly.


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## Prime mova

Yea I've also been into the new style car audio shops and asked some open questions to see there responses. I made some inquiries bout the subs in the shop and suitable enclosures. Was told go to a cash converter (pawn shops) and buy a box from there or do what the salesman did just find a barrel and put it in the end of that. Man, with advice like that sq is dead.


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## bigdexxx

I'm not a shop owner nor have I ever owned a shop, I'm just a guy who loves car audio (been away from it for around 3 years). I started buying (working & broken items) and re-selling car audio, back in 2001 when I was a Junior in High school. I actually made good money off of it too, I would buy broken amps off of sounddomain.com and termpro.com and take them to our local electronics guru and he would fix them for us free of charge. We were just neighborhood kids, who spent a lot of time at his shop and sent a lot of business his way. 

The guy could fix anything and he would always be fair to people. He would always explain to them what was wrong and how he fixed it. He was the first person to open up an amp and show us how he repaired it. He showed us how to set gains with an Oscilloscope . After the summer of 2002, I joined the Air Force and got stationed in Biloxi, MS. I got my own vehicle and did my first major install

Eclipse Headunit
Old Symmetry EPX2 Processor
DD W6.5 in doors
ID CD1 Pro Horns
12" RE SE (x3)
JBL 1200.1 180.2 80.2

The local shop is where I brought my Eclipse, so I could get the manufactures warranty. The shop treated me like trash, If I wasn't a big time buyer or one of the local drug dealers. Then I wasn't worth their time, I once had a problem with my deck and took it back to get it sent in for warranty and when I got it back they lost the trim ring that went to the deck. I asked about it and they basically told me to F off, I spoke with the owner and he could've cared less. There was another shop in town, who was actually good, but it was the same thing. If you weren't a drug dealer or a big spender, you were looked down on and treated badly. A lot of car audio dealers just don't have customer service or even know what customer service is or was for that matter .

I've been to a few different countries and the customer service I got from car audio shops in Japan was the best ever. I still do all my own installs, but I do like to support small businesses and I do a lot of work with the SBA (Small Business Administration). I will support the local guy in anyway I can if you have good customer service and don't try and talk down to your customers. 

Lastly, If any shop owner who has the funds or capability can send all their employees to a Disney World Customer Service seminar "PLEASE DO" those guys know how to treat customers and they know how to pull the money from the customers finger in a kind, but gentle manner :laugh:


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## Angrywhopper

bump I'd like to keep this discussion going!


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## Fricasseekid

I'd like to see some more input too. I wish I wouldve titled this thread differently though. There have been very interesting posts and I believe most everyone posting read the OP and gets what this is about.

But for those who haven't been following: there has been a severe decline in the quality of knowledge and costumer service one can get at a brick in mortar shop since the mid to late 90s. Obviously it has alot to do with internet sales, but I wonder if the numbers of us hobbyists are declining as well? The economy maybe? Disinterest due to a decline in the quality of products? Maybe there are more of us DIYers now? If you think about it the average B&M costumer and the average DIYer are two completely different markets.


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## Angrywhopper

Fricasseekid said:


> I'd like to see some more input too. I wish I wouldve titled this thread differently though. There have been very interesting posts and I believe most everyone posting read the OP and gets what this is about.
> 
> But for those who haven't been following: *there has been a severe decline in the quality of knowledge and costumer service one can get at a brick in mortar shop since the mid to late 90s.* Obviously it has alot to do with internet sales, but I wonder if the numbers of us hobbyists are declining as well? The economy maybe? Disinterest due to a decline in the quality of products? Maybe there are more of us DIYers now? If you think about it the average B&M costumer and the average DIYer are two completely different markets.


My response is to the bold part:

Yes, customer service may have gone down in the average car audio shop, but it's not entirely the businesses fault. When your average customer is walking in wanting a $150 stereo that will play his iPod and the $199 component set, there is no reason to retain a car audio enthusiast salesman that demands big bucks. The average car audio consumer isn't going into a store with the idea of spending $500 on a DSP and $600 on a amp. Times have changed and businesses are reacting to the changing customer. It's all about saving as much money for the customer, even if it means compromise. 

Don't forget that the DIYMA crowd is almost 100% different than the average consumer.


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## Fricasseekid

Angrywhopper said:


> My response is to the bold part:
> 
> Yes, customer service may have gone down in the average car audio shop, but it's not entirely the businesses fault. When your average customer is walking in wanting a $150 stereo that will play his iPod and the $199 component set, there is no reason to retain a car audio enthusiast salesman that demands big bucks. The average car audio consumer isn't going into a store with the idea of spending $500 on a DSP and $600 on a amp. Times have changed and businesses are reacting to the changing customer. It's all about saving as much money for the customer, even if it means compromise.
> 
> Don't forget that the DIYMA crowd is almost 100% different than the average consumer.


Right, I said something to that effect in the last line of my post. 
This hobby requires a vast ammount of knowledge and that knowledge is neccesary to provide the kind of costumer service that you or I would hope to recieve. But nobody who has attained that much knowledge would be interested in putting it to use for under $12/hr.


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## bassfromspace

Angrywhopper said:


> My response is to the bold part:
> 
> Yes, customer service may have gone down in the average car audio shop, but it's not entirely the businesses fault. When your average customer is walking in wanting a $150 stereo that will play his iPod and the $199 component set, there is no reason to retain a car audio enthusiast salesman that demands big bucks. The average car audio consumer isn't going into a store with the idea of spending $500 on a DSP and $600 on a amp. Times have changed and businesses are reacting to the changing customer. It's all about saving as much money for the customer, even if it means compromise.
> 
> Don't forget that the DIYMA crowd is almost 100% different than the average consumer.


How is this problem unique to car audio? ANY salesman in ANY business has to show value and if a salesman can't show the value of a product, why should the customer buy it?

Service after the sale is important as well and many car audio shops don't understand that.


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## Fricasseekid

bassfromspace said:


> How is this problem unique to car audio? ANY salesman in ANY business has to show value and if a salesman can't show the value of a product, why should the customer buy it?
> 
> Service after the sale is important as well and many car audio shops don't understand that.


True! I want a salesman that can talk crossover points and slopes, on/off axis performance, and amp efficiency whether I'm spending $100 or $1000.


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## Micksh

Fricasseekid said:


> True! I want a salesman that can talk crossover points and slopes, on/off axis performance, and amp efficiency whether I'm spending $100 or $1000.


I totally agree...the problem I have with many shops (including the one I worked at in the 90's), is many salesman still can't do what you are referring to. I always tried to get involved (I was an installer) with the sale if possible, especially in the larger sales. Unfortunately, the owner never wanted installers on the floor, but I usually got away with it because I was doing all the high-end installs...


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## tibug

Cars are a dying breed. Mobile audio as we know it will die along with cars.


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## Angrywhopper

bassfromspace said:


> How is this problem unique to car audio? ANY salesman in ANY business has to show value and if a salesman can't show the value of a product, why should the customer buy it?
> 
> Service after the sale is important as well and many car audio shops don't understand that.


The thing is, the car Audio salesman is showing value, just not the value DIYMA members expect. But how many diyma type customers does that salesman see in his store a month..a year..? Probably 1 out of every 100. The other 99 customers want the iPod headunit and some bass. In the business world, it's all about numbers. It's ok to lose that 1 DIYMA member (who probably would buy online anyways) but sell to the masses. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Angrywhopper

Fricasseekid said:


> True! I want a salesman that can talk crossover points and slopes, on/off axis performance, and amp efficiency whether I'm spending $100 or $1000.


You want that, but aren't willing to spend the money.. 

I've seen your threads and posts before. You use the word 'budget'. You're indecisive. (I'm not attacking you, just playing devils advocate)

So you want to talk crossover points and slopes with a salesman. Would you honestly drop $500-$1000 on a DSP during that chat? My guess would be no.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rob b.

I see small businesses all over that are dying because they are too stubborn to accept the fact that if they are not competitive with online pricing, they are not going to sell anything. service is an industry that cant dye, these shop owner's need to be happy with making money on the service and take a hit on the product mark up in order to stay competitive. combine that with the fact that 90% of these shops do bad installs and of course your going to see people just buying there stuff online, the average idiot can do an install of equal quality to some of these places. I see people asking for me or some of my friends to just install what they buy online and pay us for labor just because product markup is so high at the shops. The market itself is so hyped up and based only on brand popularity to start with, so no one at all cares about real quality anyways. I may have even payed extra back when the products were of any quality, but why bother when most everything within reasonable pricing sucks ass these days anyways.


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## Fricasseekid

Angrywhopper said:


> You want that, but aren't willing to spend the money..
> 
> I've seen your threads and posts before. You use the word 'budget'. You're indecisive. (I'm not attacking you, just playing devils advocate)
> 
> So you want to talk crossover points and slopes with a salesman. Would you honestly drop $500-$1000 on a DSP during that chat? My guess would be no.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll pay for what I need to make my setup work. And if a B&M shop has it at a competitive price i'd prefer to support local business. But they don't and the lure of online savings is just too enticing for me.


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## Angrywhopper

Fricasseekid said:


> I'll pay for what I need to make my setup work. And if a B&M shop has it at a competitive price i'd prefer to support local business. But they don't and the lure of online savings is just too enticing for me.


Exactly. You want to be able to talk to a knowledgeable salesman about crossover points and slopes, but want online pricing which is absurdly low (at or near dealer cost). The world doesn't work that way buddy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Angrywhopper

rob b. said:


> I see small businesses all over that are dying because they are too stubborn to accept the fact that if they are not competitive with online pricing, they are not going to sell anything. service is an industry that cant dye, these shop owner's need to be happy with making money on the service and take a hit on the product mark up in order to stay competitive. combine that with the fact that 90% of these shops do bad installs and of course your going to see people just buying there stuff online, the average idiot can do an install of equal quality to some of these places. I see people asking for me or some of my friends to just install what they buy online and pay us for labor just because product markup is so high at the shops. The market itself is so hyped up and based only on brand popularity to start with, so no one at all cares about real quality anyways. I may have even payed extra back when the products were of any quality, but why bother when most everything within reasonable pricing sucks ass these days anyways.


Plenty of shops and business do great work. Your reasoning doesn't make sense. 

That being said, it's not that shops are being stubborn, it's that stores have to maintain a certain price point to keep their doors open. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fricasseekid

Angrywhopper said:


> Exactly. You want to be able to talk to a knowledgeable salesman about crossover points and slopes, but want online pricing which is absurdly low (at or near dealer cost). The world doesn't work that way buddy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well yes, clearly a shop that hires and pays for top notch employees probably can't afford to cut prices. But the majority of B&M shops do neither one. They have low quality sales/service and their prices are yet still astronomical! Where's the give and take in that?


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## mrfreeze

Fricasseekid said:


> Well yes, clearly a shop that hires and pays for top notch employees probably can't afford to cut prices. But the majority of B&M shops do neither one. They have low quality sales/service and their prices are yet still astronomical! Where's the give and take in that?


Agree, Times have changed, With the internet being a huge source of shopping and comparing prices why would a person go into their local stereo shop and pay $100 or more for the same product when they can get it for much less buying via internet? I know these shops need to make a living to survive but this is whats killing them and they know that. However I have no problem paying a quality installer for his time doing custom work for me as labor is labor.


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## Fricasseekid

mrfreeze said:


> Agree, Times have changed, With the internet being a huge source of shopping and comparing prices why would a person go into their local stereo shop and pay $100 or more for the same product when they can get it for much less buying via internet? I know these shops need to make a living to survive but this is whats killing them and they know that. However I have no problem paying a quality installer for his time doing custom work for me as labor is labor.


The unfortunate part is that I recieve far better customer service at Sonicelectronix than any of my local B&M outlets.


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## Darth SQ

There you go with the costumer (customer) thing again. 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Fricasseekid

Fixed!

If you haven't noticed I have a thing for costumes. Must be a Freudian slip of sorts.


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## quietfly

I got into car stereo in 1988, I was in high school and wanted to put a system in to my car 79 Camaro with a Cadillac 425 motor and a heavily modded 400 transmission. I started going to brick and mortar shops because because back then there weren’t many other options, mail order existed , but not having any knowledge made that a tough choice. The Local stereo shops looked at me and my car and instantly labeled me a “dumb rich kid looking to spend his dads money” so they all tried to take me for anything they could. I got tired of spending hundreds of dollars and not getting what I wanted. So I gave up. A few years later I just happened to pass a show at a stereo shop out on long island, it was an IASCA show and I was totally impressed. Now these guys were getting the sound I wanted. So I started asking these guys questions and most of them were very helpful and informative. This is where my DIY truly started. I started visiting Brooklyn’s best autosound, and just watching and listening. Slowly I started collecting equipment and finally I did my own build. 
I visit local brick and mortar shops every now and again, and I have to say it’s sad when the installers in best buy seem to be more knowledgeable. One local shop near me just picked up Hertz, I noticed the big tent outside, so I decided to stop by and see what they were all about. I asked to talk to their head installer and started to ask him about installs and such. The one thing that was apparent was that these shops make their bread and butter on “lo-fi” installs. Bells and whistles. Not high equipment. I asked why they picked up Hertz then, and his response is the owner wanted one high end brand to pitch for high end car (jaguar, bmw, MB, ) driver replacement. He said half the time they don’t even use the crossovers that came with the components, and showed me a box full of them. I thanked him for his time and went on my way. 
This is the sad future of High-end car audio in our country. If you go to the urban area’s you will always find shops that will do a box and amp for your basic BOOM, but try finding a place to help with your active 3 way set up, or that you can rent RTA time from. It’s nearly impossible. 
JMO YMMV


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## AAAAAAA

A few more interesting aspects:

Go out of your way as a consumer to stop by at a shop and most likely you will find that:
The brands you want aren’t there or are very limited so are the models. Inventory is low. They might have to order what you want and thus you don’t even get to have the item right away. The internet on the other hand has all of the brands, usually easy access to specs and you have to wait to get it just like you probably would have to anyways from a local low inventory store. Anyone that has gone to a shop and looks at anything sees a very bare spec cheat so there is no way to know at the store if the product you are looking at has what you need, the consumer MUST do his research first on his own.

I remember a guy telling me he could order it for me, as Dman said - impulse buy – well sorry buddy I can “order” it myself from the internet and probably get it quicker and of course cheaper. Looking at a deck that has a bunch of cool features yet the spec sheet printed said something to the affet of:
-RCA outpus
-mp3 player
-50watts x 4

Moving on, I personally don’t think knowledge has gone down at all at shops, I think it has always been crap. The difference is just now with the advent of the internet and forums consumers are better informed when going up against uninformed salesman.

Lastly I think that having something like a million brands sold in NA really makes it so that no one makes a lot of money. Car audio is a market that is X amount of $\year and every year there is Y amount of brands and Y keeps getting bigger and bigger. Thing is most car audio products are only distinguished by brand and marketing because it’s literally clones on clones of the same sht. No innovation. Anyone literally can come in and start a “brand”. Car audio has been the same since for ever and anyone and everyone is in on it. All one needs is a capital investment to “brand” products and off you go. Seriously, everyone would win if there were only 10-20 or so brands and I think that was one thing that was good from the past and is rarely if ever touched upon now as a reason for the industries place.


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## Rudeboy

Angrywhopper said:


> Exactly. You want to be able to talk to a knowledgeable salesman about crossover points and slopes, but want online pricing which is absurdly low (at or near dealer cost). The world doesn't work that way buddy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There's no reason for B&M salesman to be able to talk with a customer about such things. That's like disparaging a doctor because he won't talk to you about how an MRI is built. That's what the Internet is for.

B&M stores can't compete on price and equipment markup shouldn't be how they make their money anymore - simple stuff from Best Buy maybe, but not high end equipment. What they should be able to offer is reliable and competent installation of whatever equipment the customers want or the store recommends/supplies. That's what most people can't do for themselves and what still has value. Anybody with a credit card can order equipment.


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## cobb2819

Rudeboy said:


> There's no reason for B&M salesman to be able to talk with a customer about such things. That's like disparaging a doctor because he won't talk to you about how an MRI is built. That's what the Internet is for.
> 
> B&M stores can't compete on price and equipment markup shouldn't be how they make their money anymore - simple stuff from Best Buy maybe, but not high end equipment. What they should be able to offer is reliable and competent installation of whatever equipment the customers want or the store recommends/supplies. That's what most people can't do for themselves and what still has value. Anybody with a credit card can order equipment.


This is exactly false!! A quality B&M store should be able to speak to slopes and crossover points, explain why they use them, and all the nitty gritty of a tune, IF they are asked about it. The issue is that most shops cannot if they are asked to break down their decisions. Why do I tune a specific way and why do I use the methods I do, are things I can explain to a customer if they are educated in the industry and ask me why. 

If you honestly believe that high end product should have no markup and low end basic stuff should have some so that companies like best buy can make a buck, then you will no longer see the production of high end equipment. If, for example, Dynaudio isnt gonna maintain their margin on the Esotar line, then why make it?? It wouldn't be considered high end at half the price. Also, without markup, then no one would ever stock product because it would not be profitable. I recommend and sell the products I do because they are protected, profitable, have excellent dealer support, and sound amazing when installed properly. They key aspect here is installed properly and without profit you would lose brand loyalty and dealers support of the products.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## quietfly

cobb2819 said:


> ..........
> If you honestly believe that high end product should have no markup and low end basic stuff should have some so that companies like best buy can make a buck, then you will no longer see the production of high end equipment. If, for example, Dynaudio isnt gonna maintain their margin on the Esotar line, then why make it?? It wouldn't be considered high end at half the price. Also, without markup, then no one would ever stock product because it would not be profitable. I recommend and sell the products I do because they are protected, profitable, have excellent dealer support, and sound amazing when installed properly. They key aspect here is installed properly and without profit you would lose brand loyalty and dealers support of the products.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


here is a question, what percentage, roughly, of your business is composed of high-end builds, and could that business survive without the deck and 4 speakers business around it?


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## underdog

All this typing of internet-VS-Brick and morter.
There is another player in this game.
The Big Box Stores
Inventory - They got it
Prices - They can compete
Knowledgable sales staff - They usually know enough to make a sale of what they have
Install capable - Like any other auto shop; from good to bad and everything in between.
impulse buy - They have the sale and the install covered in about the time it takes you to eat lunch.

Wallmart killes all there competition. That model has been adopted by many now.

That leaves us with 2.5 choices 
DIY - Online - You may be one of the few with a nearby competent shop.


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## cobb2819

quietfly said:


> here is a question, what percentage, roughly, of your business is composed of high-end builds, and could that business survive without the deck and 4 speakers business around it?


We have done 1 deck and 4 install this year. Even our most simple installs use at least a 4 channel. So I would say that about 90% of our work has been rather elaborate or upscale builds. So yes, we survive on high end builds. Other shops around town do the deck and 4 or amp and subs, we do full scale builds with protected and high quality products.


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## quietfly

cobb2819 said:


> We have done 1 deck and 4 install this year. Even our most simple installs use at least a 4 channel. So I would say that about 90% of our work has been rather elaborate or upscale builds. So yes, we survive on high end builds. Other shops around town do the deck and 4 or amp and subs, we do full scale builds with protected and high quality products.


thats good to know, hopefully that means high end car audio is not as dead as it seems here.


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## Rudeboy

cobb2819 said:


> This is exactly false!! A quality B&M store should be able to speak to slopes and crossover points, explain why they use them, and all the nitty gritty of a tune, IF they are asked about it. The issue is that most shops cannot if they are asked to break down their decisions. Why do I tune a specific way and why do I use the methods I do, are things I can explain to a customer if they are educated in the industry and ask me why.


How many actual customers are going to ask? No offense to Fricasseekid, but he's not going to be a customer. He wants to discuss these things because he enjoys discussing them. Of the 1% of the total market who are going to pay for high dollar equipment to be professionally installed, how many are going to care enough to ask? Obviously anyone who can justify charging the big bucks should be able to answer the questions, but how many are going to be asked? Beyond that tiny minority, how relevant is the discussion going to be when the customer is paying to have speakers with a passive crossover installed in the stock locations?


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## Fricasseekid

underdog said:


> All this typing of internet-VS-Brick and morter.
> There is another player in this game.
> The Big Box Stores
> Inventory - They got it
> Prices - They can compete
> Knowledgable sales staff - They usually know enough to make a sale of what they have
> Install capable - Like any other auto shop; from good to bad and everything in between.
> impulse buy - They have the sale and the install covered in about the time it takes you to eat lunch.
> 
> Wallmart killes all there competition. That model has been adopted by many now.
> 
> That leaves us with 2.5 choices
> DIY - Online - You may be one of the few with a nearby competent shop.


Would you let bestbuy handle your install?


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## cobb2819

Rudeboy said:


> How many actual customers are going to ask? No offense to Fricasseekid, but he's not going to be a customer. He wants to discuss these things because he enjoys discussing them. Of the 1% of the total market who are going to pay for high dollar equipment to be professionally installed, how many are going to care enough to ask? Obviously anyone who can justify charging the big bucks should be able to answer the questions, but how many are going to be asked? Beyond that tiny minority, how relevant is the discussion going to be when the customer is paying to have speakers with a passive crossover installed in the stock locations?


It goes with answering the questions about why I choose specific drivers for their application. They might ask "why these instead of those?" and I will mention a lower frequency response and the ability to take advantage of it. It might not be every customer, but the ability to answer it with a legit reason and logic speaks volumes when another shop says "it's just how we do it!"


----------



## Fricasseekid

Rudeboy said:


> How many actual customers are going to ask? No offense to Fricasseekid, but he's not going to be a customer. He wants to discuss these things because he enjoys discussing them. Of the 1% of the total market who are going to pay for high dollar equipment to be professionally installed, how many are going to care enough to ask? Obviously anyone who can justify charging the big bucks should be able to answer the questions, but how many are going to be asked? Beyond that tiny minority, how relevant is the discussion going to be when the customer is paying to have speakers with a passive crossover installed in the stock locations?


In all fairness, I started this thread because if experiences I had while spending money in a B&M shop and I have asked the very questions I'm discussing now. Go back and read my first few posts on page 1.


----------



## Fricasseekid

Besides, the customer may not ask such questions but I don't want any shop working on my car if they can't answer such questions.


----------



## AAAAAAA

There is no reason for the salesman to know about xovers and such.... the installer usually has the more in depth knowledge as he would be the one doing everything.

Recommendations that come for a salesman might be either personal preference or incentive based, nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Fricasseekid

AAAAAAA said:


> There is no reason for the salesman to know about xovers and such.... the installer usually has the more in depth knowledge as he would be the one doing everything.
> 
> Recommendations that come for a salesman might be either personal preference or incentive based, nothing wrong with that.


In my experience the salesman is just the owner or manager. If anyone else is up front it's usually an installer with some down time.


----------



## underdog

Fricasseekid said:


> Would you let bestbuy handle your install?


Not me.
But original question had devolved into why the brick and mortar places are dying.
Between the internet and the Big Box they cannot compete.

Go down town some time.
Everything but the Big Boxes are about all gone.

So in order for a high end stereo shop to even think of making it, other than a boutique model would be a big chain model like Pep Boys.

There is another model that may work but in this Litigious America i live in, it could probably never be affordable to think of.


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## Fricasseekid

Example:
I go into a local B&M shop looking for a HU that is capable of 2 way active plus sub output, can offer 18 db or greater slopes, has at least a 6 band graphic or 3 band parametric EQ, and I want a pair of midbass drivers that have alot of punch below 200 hz while remaining detailed at 3khz, and could he recommend a set of tweeters that blend well? 

Why do you think a salesman that doesn't know his stuff could help me? 

Ok so your response might be that 95% of audio customers don't ask for things that specifically. Well that's actually why the thread is titled "Are we a dying breed". It seem that 10 years ago there were more people that shopped at B&M shops that were deeper into the hobby. But this thread has actually answered my question. The hobbyist hasn't died off. The internet has made the hobby more DIY friendly and the market has seen a divide into two types of consumers; the B&M "pay to play" type and us DIYers. The B&M shops have nothing to offer us DIY guys cause we are no longer part of their market.


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## underdog

You are a scholar


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## Fricasseekid

Are you teasing me?


----------



## BuickGN

It's always funny going to my local shop. The owner is a great guy, hooks me up on products, including dealer cost on some of the slow movers. But listening to the average customer interact with him and the sales people is comical. They have no idea why they're there or what they want. I thought they were dumb as rocks by listening to the conversations and I felt as if I had lost a few IQ points but after talking to them I realized they keep it on the same level as the customer. They can go more in depth but why, the customer won't understand. Most sales are subs powered by Interfire amps. Very few do mids and tweeters. Focal is the only recognized SQ brand by the average customer. Alpine Type S is one of the largest sellers along with JL's bottom line coaxials that sound worse than some OEMs. 

The other shops around town had either never heard of IB or said it could never work. They also said my bandpass could never get loud. I've learned when proving them wrong to not tell them what's in the car until they start complimenting it and then let them know it's one of the setups that "can't" work. A while back a shop told a co-worker that I was crazy for suggesting he run his W7 IB. It could never work. The look on their faces was priceless when popping the trunk after listening to mine for a while.


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## bassfromspace

The B&M's keep arguing with the customers and missing the point that the customer is in control.

Seriously, corporations spend billions of dollars every year to get this kind of feedback.


----------



## underdog

No
You seemed to digest all the information and creat a correct hypothisis.



Fricasseekid said:


> Example:
> this thread has actually answered my question. The hobbyist hasn't died off. The internet has made the hobby more DIY friendly and the market has seen a divide into two types of consumers; the B&M "pay to play" type and us DIYers. The B&M shops have nothing to offer us DIY guys cause we are no longer part of their market.


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## Fricasseekid

underdog said:


> No
> You seemed to digest all the information and creat a correct hypothisis.


Ok. In that case thankyou! 

I had to check, there's alot of wise ass people around. I'm one of em!


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## cobb2819

bassfromspace said:


> The B&M's keep arguing with the customers and missing the point that the customer is in control.


We do??? News to me!!! I like to have conversations with my customers, get a feel for what they're looking for, their budget, and then I make some recommendations, let them listen to some installed options, and let them make the decision on what they'd like to do. Other customers spend some time to talk to me, tell me their budget, and tell me to surprise them. Guess generalizing the B&M all together isn't quite fair to those of us that still care about the industry. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Darth SQ

Fricasseekid said:


> Ok. In that case thankyou!
> 
> I had to check, there's alot of wise ass people around. I'm one of em!


Maybe it's that salesmen don't take you seriously when they see that neon green rooster comb! 

Wise assy enough for yah?

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## trojan fan

Fricasseekid said:


> Ok so your response might be that 95% of audio customers don't ask for things that specifically. Well that's actually why the thread is titled "Are we a dying breed". It seem that 10 years ago there were more people that shopped at B&M shops that were deeper into the hobby. But this thread has actually answered my question. The hobbyist hasn't died off. The internet has made the hobby more DIY friendly and the market has seen a divide into two types of consumers; the B&M "pay to play" type and us DIYers. The B&M shops have nothing to offer us DIY guys cause we are no longer part of their market.



x2....exactly.....That's a very good way of looking at it and I couldn't agree with you more


----------



## Angrywhopper

BuickGN said:


> It's always funny going to my local shop. The owner is a great guy, hooks me up on products, including dealer cost on some of the slow movers. But listening to the average customer interact with him and the sales people is comical. They have no idea why they're there or what they want. I thought they were dumb as rocks by listening to the conversations and I felt as if I had lost a few IQ points but after talking to them I realized they keep it on the same level as the customer. They can go more in depth but why, the customer won't understand. Most sales are subs powered by Interfire amps. Very few do mids and tweeters. Focal is the only recognized SQ brand by the average customer. Alpine Type S is one of the largest sellers along with JL's bottom line coaxials that sound worse than some OEMs.
> 
> The other shops around town had either never heard of IB or said it could never work. They also said my bandpass could never get loud. I've learned when proving them wrong to not tell them what's in the car until they start complimenting it and then let them know it's one of the setups that "can't" work. A while back a shop told a co-worker that I was crazy for suggesting he run his W7 IB. It could never work. The look on their faces was priceless when popping the trunk after listening to mine for a while.


Yup, the average customer gets lost and confused when talking crossover points and slopes. That's why their paying a pro to just do it. 

There's a large market of people that want to have better audio in their car. They don't want to spend 3K, and can't have their car torn apart for 2 months. They want everything to work right and ready to go when they pick up their car the day after they dropped it off. They also want an actual human being to talk to after the sale with any questions or concerns. ANY problems and they simply drop off their car and pick it up shortly after.

So no, the diyma member is not what most stores are targeting. Expectations are ridiculously high, budgets are generally low, and quite frankly, there's a high sense of elitism from many members.


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## Jroo

When I walk into local shops they are totally underwhelming. They offer nothing that stands out and then couple that with lack of knowledge, horrible service, and a shrinking product selection, internet price becomes a very important thing. I am coming from the standpoint of a consumer. If everything about my local shop sucks and I find out that I can find their product line at almost have the price online, why would I purchase from them or support them? Most shops sales staff are horrible and lack even basic knowledge of the product line they carry and know even less about stuff they dont sell. Usually the guys in the shops that know anything are the "older" guys that have stayed around the shop for years. 
Most shops are empty in terms of product and anything that looks like "custom" work. There was a time when you could walk into a shop and they would be front line for the new products and information and you could see all the crazy custom stuff they were working on. You could walk in the install booths or the parking lot and glance at the employees cars and see their projects and the shops products at work. All this gave you ideas and you were confident that the shop could pull off custom work. You then came back in and started talking about what you could do to your car and then the possiblity of purchasing something occured. 
Now you walk into a shop and all you see is an ipod dock, some OEM interface stuff and a sound room with an 8" sub in a prefab box. How do so called sound enthusiats and installers do zero to their personal rides? Would you buy turbo and motor work from a guy that doesnt have a car, doesnt or never raced, and rides a scotter daily? 
I will agree that technology is changing, but just looking at this forum and many others you can see there is still very much an audience. Sure the audience has gotten smaller, but that should push the shops to do more to keep them interested. I use the internet exclusively to get my knowledge because I know I cant have any of these discussions with 95% of people working in my local shops. When I hear about a new deck or a new set of speakers, I learn about it online. I then stop by many of the local shops and ask questions and they look at you like you have 3 heads because they have no clue what you are talking about. The reality is that I know half of what alot of guys on this forum know. The truth is the small bit of knowledge about the hobby I do have is usually tripple what is going on in my local shops. The only thing many of the shops have going for them is they can sell OEM add on stuff to the mom that just purchased the loaded minivan. 
The other question I have is about show support. I have to search far and wide for anything that even looks like a sound off. My local shops never have sound offs or anything that even touches SQ. They also very rarely attend the local car shows in the area. Around me during spring and summer there are dozens of car shows that pop up. Do you think any of the local shops show up or bring a car of any type of sq or spl cars? The answer is no. I get there is cost associated with putting on a event and you may not want to sponsor one yourself. Seriously, how hard would it be to enter a shop car or bring a coulple of installers personal rides to the local shows to show people what you can do? The people are their attending the car show already, show up and get them interested in the audio piece again. Those events are already done, all you have to do is show up!


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## Superfly

Rudeboy said:


> There's no reason for B&M salesman to be able to talk with a customer about such things. That's like disparaging a doctor because he won't talk to you about how an MRI is built. That's what the Internet is for.


"That's what the internet is for!" Right, because everyone on the internet knows what they're talking about  ....and don't tell me any BS about how you can just use discretion and avoid being led astray. Every forum has a boner for something.

Alright next paragraph......



Rudeboy said:


> B&M stores can't compete on price and equipment markup shouldn't be how they make their money anymore - simple stuff from Best Buy maybe, but not high end equipment. What they should be able to offer is reliable and competent installation of whatever equipment the customers want or the store recommends/supplies. That's what most people can't do for themselves and what still has value. Anybody with a credit card can order equipment.


So you're saying that places should charge MORE for crappy equipment, and then make no money on more expensive equipment? Why shouldn't a shop make money on everything they sell??

Also, if a shop installs equipment that comes from the customer (which could mean only God knows what condition it's in), then they just CAN'T warranty the install. Then if something goes wrong, the customer might blame the shop, and the shop sure as hell isn't going to replace equipment that wasn't bought from them. Why should they?? It would be absurd. It'd be like GIVING away inventory..... 

Now if the customer knows this all beforehand and still wants it done, then great, I think the shop should have no problem doing it if they want to do it.

You're right, anybody with a credit card can order equipment. Doesn't mean it's going to be good equipment, or the equipment they actually want. 

You're the owner of Sound Deadener Showdown? Definitely lost me as a customer, and everyone that I know.



quietfly said:


> here is a question, what percentage, roughly, of [cobb's] business is composed of high-end builds, and could that business survive without the deck and 4 speakers business around it?


He said pretty much all of the installs are high end installs. I can vouch for that. Cobb doesn't do half-assed. 



dman said:


> I was a forum member over at a Mustang site (we used to do some custom work for a mustang place). Anyway we advertised a DIY DAY.. We held it on a Sunday.... Shop was closed to the public, but open for the Mustang forum members only... The deal was for 8 hrs. that day, they could bring their cars with equiptment etc, they could redo anything they had or install what they had... they had to DO ALL the work themselves, but they could utilize ANY equiptment, tools, or materials we had... (all they had to pay for was any materials they used, and was at our cost). I had myself and my installation guys there and available for guidance and pointers, etc.. (just not physical installations, although me and my guys couldnt help but jump in here and there), we had hotdogs, drinks, etc. and was just a laid back open DIY day.... I earned alot of customers from those, and people got to do their own thing, etc.. Was fun, i did a few more times after that... Of course we did require signed releases in case you stapled your fingers to your box or something, lol..


See now this is something I would LOVE to see happen. Talk about customer service!


In all honesty, Cobb is the only B&M store I'll go to in my area. All the others either sell POS equipment and do installs worse than a 5th grader, or are too busy worshipping the car audio companies they sell while getting screwed by those same companies because of price locking and internet sales.... Maybe B&M stores don't realize the game has changed, or just don't care. I never felt like supporting the shops in my town, or even thought they deserved being supported, until I met Cobb. He cares about car audio, he knows what he's talking about, and he's smart about the companies he deals with. I hang out there all the time just to talk. He shows me all kinds of equipment, tells me every time he finishes an install so I can come listen to it. He's helped me countless times install equipment just for fun, at no charge. There's TRUST between us. Maybe that's what is truly missing in car audio these days.

I trust Cobb with my car, I'd trust him with ANY car. In fact, my car was stolen, stripped and dumped just a couple weeks ago. Cobb has bent over backwards in any way he can to help me out, and not just with the audio side of things. I'll be an HDME fanboi for as long Cobb's the owner.


----------



## quietfly

Superfly said:


> In all honesty, Cobb is the only B&M store I'll go to in my area. All the others either sell POS equipment and do installs worse than a 5th grader, or are too busy worshipping the car audio companies they sell while getting screwed by those same companies because of price locking and internet sales.... Maybe B&M stores don't realize the game has changed, or just don't care. I never felt like supporting the shops in my town, or even thought they deserved being supported, until I met Cobb. He cares about car audio, he knows what he's talking about, and he's smart about the companies he deals with. I hang out there all the time just to talk. He shows me all kinds of equipment, tells me every time he finishes an install so I can come listen to it. He's helped me countless times install equipment just for fun, at no charge. There's TRUST between us. Maybe that's what is truly missing in car audio these days.
> 
> I trust Cobb with my car, I'd trust him with ANY car. In fact, my car was stolen, stripped and dumped just a couple weeks ago. Cobb has bent over backwards in any way he can to help me out, and not just with the audio side of things. I'll be an HDME fanboi for as long Cobb's the owner.


this is the problem, Owners and shops like Cobb's are the exception not the norm. i haven't found a shop in 30miles that i'd trust my crappy car with, for more than a basic install. So my install goes one weekend at a time on my own. I would LOVE to be able to drop the car off and say to someone i trust you to do a good job. The sad fact is, I have money i COULD be spending on custom work but no place with in reason to get it done. and its not just me there's a lot of guys like me, and thats why there's been a decline in B&M business....
JMO YMMV


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## Fricasseekid

quietfly said:


> this is the problem, Owners and shops like Cobb's are the exception not the norm. i haven't found a shop in 30miles that i'd trust my crappy car with, for more than a basic install. So my install goes one weekend at a time on my own. I would LOVE to be able to drop the car off and say to someone i trust you to do a good job. The sad fact is, I have money i COULD be spending on custom work but no place with in reason to get it done. and its not just me there's a lot of guys like me, and thats why there's been a decline in B&M business....
> JMO YMMV


Wish I could find a place like that near me.


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## Fricasseekid

What incentive do you guys think a B&M shop would have to market a portion of their business to us DIY types? 

I have a few ideas, but I'd like to hear your ideas on it first.


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## quietfly

Fricasseekid said:


> What incentive do you guys think a B&M shop would have to market a portion of their business to us DIY types?
> 
> I have a few ideas, but I'd like to hear your ideas on it first.


"ill show you mine, but only after you show me yours....." :laugh:


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## Fricasseekid

Well profit can't be much of an incentive. Because, in order to keep a DIY type customer coming competitive prices would be a must, because the average DIYer is accustomed to the internet market (due to availability of knowledge and affordable products). Also secondly, a DIYer wouldn't be a DIYer if they didn't Do It Yourself (read themselves). So, a B&M couldn't expect to make money off installs either. 

I know that if I had a local shop near me that was pro SQ and pro knowledge I would hang out there alot. I would also roll up my sleeves and help with installs, A. because it's a chance to learn and B. because it's what I love to do. I would also attend any sound offs and other events the shop was involved in. I would also be happy to help other customers pick out gear, let people hear my ride, and share any knowledge I had to offer.

All these things could create a sense of comradery and loyalty that could be good for business. How could it be a bad thing if a B&M shop was full of cool people, turned out great sounding rides, and was a cool place to hang out?


----------



## quietfly

Fricasseekid said:


> Well profit can't be much of an incentive.


Umm that the best one i know of. MONEY.... if they make money they'll do almost anything. 

I know some people that would do very bad things for money, but i digress..... the point is money is about the only way to get them to do anything. 
the goodness of your heart will very often not feed your family....


----------



## Rudeboy

Superfly said:


> "That's what the internet is for!" Right, because everyone on the internet knows what they're talking about  ....and don't tell me any BS about how you can just use discretion and avoid being led astray. Every forum has a boner for something.


One doesn't have to look very far to see people posting on forums without any sense or even the consistency to make a point throughout a single post. Similarly, salesmen with agendas that benefit themselves more than their customers are easy to find. At least the Internet offers a variety of points of view that tend to lead the sharper knives toward the right answers. We are talking about discussing what for most people is esoterica, not equipment choices or the like. Boners have nothing to do with it. If one is looking for the best information on these topics, it isn't going to come from skilled installers or great salesmen. It's going to come from scientists and engineers who work with these things every day. All of that is available online.



Superfly said:


> Alright next paragraph......
> 
> So you're saying that places should charge MORE for crappy equipment, and then make no money on more expensive equipment? Why shouldn't a shop make money on everything they sell??


Not what I'm saying at all - I said that's mostly what's worth stocking. Shops can't compete on merchandise sales. Wishing that wasn't the case doesn't make it so. Before they can make a profit they have to finance the merchandise, store it, etc. If they mark it up more than what it costs them, they will almost certainly have to charge significantly more than a direct seller. That makes it very likely that the customer will see the same equipment for much less and conclude that the retailer they purchased from is a crook. Even if the brand is protected, the customer is likely to hear $200 speakers that sound better than the $2000 set they just had installed. Again, they are unhappy. When selling commodity products, it only makes sense to charge for the value you bring to the table.



Superfly said:


> Also, if a shop installs equipment that comes from the customer (which could mean only God knows what condition it's in), then they just CAN'T warranty the install. Then if something goes wrong, the customer might blame the shop, and the shop sure as hell isn't going to replace equipment that wasn't bought from them. Why should they?? It would be absurd. It'd be like GIVING away inventory.....


You continue to assume things. Most problems have solutions that are easier to see if you don't insist on applying legacy constraints.



Superfly said:


> Now if the customer knows this all beforehand and still wants it done, then great, I think the shop should have no problem doing it if they want to do it.


Look at that - you just solved that problem and negated your previous point in two sentences.



Superfly said:


> You're right, anybody with a credit card can order equipment. Doesn't mean it's going to be good equipment, or the equipment they actually want.


Never said it was. 



Superfly said:


> You're the owner of Sound Deadener Showdown? Definitely lost me as a customer, and everyone that I know.


Good idea - my products probably wouldn't work for you. As for everyone you know, yes please - tell them that I dared to express an opinion that you decided to misinterpret as an attack on your friend and that they too should punish me 



Superfly said:


> He said pretty much all of the installs are high end installs. I can vouch for that. Cobb doesn't do half-assed.


Which puts him the group I explicitly exempted from my comments. There's almost always room at the top.



Superfly said:


> In all honesty, Cobb is the only B&M store I'll go to in my area. All the others either sell POS equipment and do installs worse than a 5th grader, or are too busy worshipping the car audio companies they sell while getting screwed by those same companies because of price locking and internet sales.... Maybe B&M stores don't realize the game has changed, or just don't care. I never felt like supporting the shops in my town, or even thought they deserved being supported, until I met Cobb. He cares about car audio, he knows what he's talking about, and he's smart about the companies he deals with. I hang out there all the time just to talk. He shows me all kinds of equipment, tells me every time he finishes an install so I can come listen to it. He's helped me countless times install equipment just for fun, at no charge. There's TRUST between us. Maybe that's what is truly missing in car audio these days.
> 
> I trust Cobb with my car, I'd trust him with ANY car. In fact, my car was stolen, stripped and dumped just a couple weeks ago. Cobb has bent over backwards in any way he can to help me out, and not just with the audio side of things. I'll be an HDME fanboi for as long Cobb's the owner.


And again - you are making the points you set out to refute. Cobb may be a great guy and really skilled. I think it's likely that he saw an opportunity to give himself a little plug: "I'm happy to discuss this stuff with customers". Problem was, he chose to do it by mocking my comments, which led me to defend them. No harm in any of that at all. 

If you had posted: "Cobb's a great guy and does great work", it would have been as superfluous as what you did post but would have made your point without the gratuitous aggression. I'm more than happy to stipulate those points but they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.


----------



## Rudeboy

Fricasseekid said:


> Well profit can't be much of an incentive. Because, in order to keep a DIY type customer coming competitive prices would be a must, because the average DIYer is accustomed to the internet market (due to availability of knowledge and affordable products). Also secondly, a DIYer wouldn't be a DIYer if they didn't Do It Yourself (read themselves). So, a B&M couldn't expect to make money off installs either.
> 
> I know that if I had a local shop near me that was pro SQ and pro knowledge I would hang out there alot. I would also roll up my sleeves and help with installs, A. because it's a chance to learn and B. because it's what I love to do. I would also attend any sound offs and other events the shop was involved in. I would also be happy to help other customers pick out gear, let people hear my ride, and share any knowledge I had to offer.
> 
> All these things could create a sense of comradery and loyalty that could be good for business. How could it be a bad thing if a B&M shop was full of cool people, turned out great sounding rides, and was a cool place to hang out?


That just wouldn't work. Unless the cool people hanging out are a source of income, like they would be in a restaurant or hotel, they are a liability. You can't have cool people pitching in on customer's cars because the shop would be liable for their mistakes. Hanging outers would be a distraction for employees. What the shop may gain in goodwill, they may lose when the cool people get pissed off over perceived slights and start badmouthing the shop. It's really hard to mix this kind of work and socializing.

What you are describing is a club. Might be worth considering.


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## Fricasseekid

So Rudeboy? What exactly is your stance on this topic? I repect your opinion and your obviously a savvy business man. But so far you've only criticized the claims of others.


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## Rudeboy

Fricasseekid said:


> So Rudeboy? What exactly is your stance on this topic? I repect your opinion and your obviously a savvy business man. But so far you've only criticized the claims of others.


I'm not trying to be critical. I'm just saying that marking up products to subsidize installation costs is a very tough row to hoe. I think there is room for high end, highly skilled installers who can justify charging for their work. At the bottom end, you have big box operations that can sort of get away with it. They have the advantage of of having a large company behind them that some people will value. It's the shops in the middle that are kidding themselves (and dropping like flies).

I think I'm just being practical about your hang out idea. The thing you have to realize is that the DIY world and the professional shop world are entirely different things. We can take as long as we want on projects and do them over if we don't like the way they turned out. Very different if you are trying to make a living at it.

Think about any similar operation that you aren't infatuated with. How about a automotive repair shop. It might be fun for shade tree mechanics to hang out there, but it doesn't help the business and can hurt it in several ways. I share a building with a body shop/repair shop and it is fun going over there. The guys there sometimes enjoy hanging out on my side and watching what I'm doing. If either of us did that more than occasionally, it would be a problem.

I was serious about the club thing. There's a GM Kappa platform (Saturn Sky, Pontiac Solstice, Opel GT) owners' club that meets a few times a year a couple of hours from me. They get together and work on their cars. We've had several group sound deadening meets where we knock them out assembly line style. Great fun and a lot can get done. Guys leave with engine upgrades, new suspensions, exhausts, brakes, etc.

I lived in Boston many years ago. The brothers from Car Talk ran a DIY garage in Cambridge. For a reasonable fee, you got access to a fully equipped bay and professional tools and mechanics were available to talk you through problems. Very cool, but liability issues killed that pretty quickly.

Lots of ways to get things done, but putting the burden on a business, probably a struggling business, isn't going to work out.


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## Superfly

Well, now, since Rudeboy's cleared up any of the ambiguous-ness of his previous statements, I look the fool. 

I'm sorry I assumed the wrong way.

I did flip flop quite a bit in my post. It's because around here, there a ton of crap car audio places, but there is one good one, so i get to see both sides.


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## Fricasseekid

Well I used to brew beer and my local brewing supply shop was a kind of hang out of sorts and seemed to be a hub for knowledge and comradery.


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## Rudeboy

Fricasseekid said:


> Well I used to brew beer and my local brewing supply shop was a kind of hang out of sorts and seemed to be a hub for knowledge and comradery.


That's actually a great example - your local brewery wasn't  Car audio shops and camera stores used to be exactly what you're describing. Camera stores came under pressure first because of mail order alternatives that advertised in the backs of magazines. It used to be that if you wanted a head unit, you had to go to a local store to buy it, same with every other component. People did hang out and buy things. The shops did installs and sold equipment to DIYers. Second part of that equation is gone.


----------



## BuickGN

Rudeboy said:


> I was serious about the club thing. There's a GM Kappa platform (Saturn Sky, Pontiac Solstice, Opel GT) owners' club that meets a few times a year a couple of hours from me. They get together and work on their cars. We've had several group sound deadening meets where we knock them out assembly line style. Great fun and a lot can get done. Guys leave with engine upgrades, new suspensions, exhausts, brakes, etc.


Different platform and way off topic but Opel GT owner here lol.


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## Darth SQ

BuickGN said:


> Different platform and way off topic but Opel GT owner here lol.


I'm sorry to hear that. 
You wouldn't happen to have a SAAB or Land Rover as well? 

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## BuickGN

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> I'm sorry to hear that.
> You wouldn't happen to have a SAAB or Land Rover as well?
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Lol. Nah, this is a '71. Currently getting a near stock 500hp Buick turbo 3.8 transplanted. What a freaking wide engine. It's wider than a SBC.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

The internet is the problem, and not because of prices. The availability of information has really dumbed down the buying public. They know EVERYTHING so why bother having a guy in the shop with some brains.

I love it when a spoonfed DIYer would walk into the shop, asking about crossover slopes and off axis response as if he knew what it was. When those guys walked into my shop, I would usually avoid them like the plague, they always want to hang out and measure dicks, but they never want to buy anything, mostly because they have all the time in the world to learn about the three components they are interested in and no time to work so they can buy them.

Hey, if they want to come in and buy information from me, the information I spent my time learning, and then **** off to use it then I would be happy, but it never works like that. What happens, classically, is always like this, the diyer brings up something he is sure is correct, which i fact is not, since I have spent a long time doing every conceivable type of installation I say 'hey actually, it's not like that, it's like this' and boom, you're the dumb guy. The diyer, and you will always hear about this, will go around telling everybody how stupid you are and how you don't know your ****... clearly a 12db per octave crossover slope is poor in comparison to a 24db crossover... three weeks later, you always get the car they worked on in your shop, probably with a 2x2ohm stereo amp with the thing wired up in 2 ohm mono with his buddy whining about how he bought this amp from you (on his sackless buddies direction.. note spoonfed 1 didn't show up) and it doesn't work. 

Anyways, finally, I really gotta say again how easy it is for you diyers to cherry pick information and learn a single trick. As a b and m guy for YEARS (selling and installing) I can say with a pretty good degree of certainty, that given the pressure, and diversity of the vehicle fleet your skills probably wouldn't compete with a proficient b and m installer on any real scale, at least given a realistic timetable. 

I always laugh when I see these threads on DIY mobile audio. Off axis response, lol, crossover slopes, lol, if that is what you think makes a successful car audio shop you are ou of your mind... quite honestly, the successful shops (which do quite a bit more than simply audio) don't give a **** about your sensitivities being hurt by not talking to you about that stuff. I bet, many of them (through experience) have learned that guys wading into the shop just to chat about cross over slopes and off axis response 99% of the time are not going to buy **** from you. It's the guy who walks in and asks for the price on a bit one and asks no other questions, that guy is the buyer... not some cheesedick who wants to talk about slopes and response, any buyer worth his salt who is interested in that **** knows the specifications of my equipment long before he walks into the shop.

Finally, the thing that drives these b and m shops are the things most of you diyers are too afraid to even contemplate, remote starters, security systems, believe me a good alarm and remote start guy is worth his weight in gold, leave the simple **** like putting speakers in a car to the diy crowd.

As far as car audio goes, and why it is devoid of talent... it's pretty obvious, the customers drive the good guys out of the business, they all go on to find real jobs that don't involve dealing with cheap know it all pricks and hangers out who couldn't hack it in the biz for themselves. the talent leaves because when you are exposed to the diversity of the field every single day, you develop skills which become highly valuable to others in professional fields, we have for the most part all moved on, and what you are left with are a few guys who know one or two things and everybody else who just doesn't give a ****... good luck filling your workforce with those guys.


----------



## Angrywhopper

BoostedNihilist said:


> The internet is the problem, and not because of prices. The availability of information has really dumbed down the buying public. They know EVERYTHING so why bother having a guy in the shop with some brains.
> 
> I love it when a spoonfed DIYer would walk into the shop, asking about crossover slopes and off axis response as if he knew what it was. When those guys walked into my shop, I would usually avoid them like the plague, they always want to hang out and measure dicks, but they never want to buy anything, mostly because they have all the time in the world to learn about the three components they are interested in and no time to work so they can buy them.
> 
> Hey, if they want to come in and buy information from me, the information I spent my time learning, and then **** off to use it then I would be happy, but it never works like that. What happens, classically, is always like this, the diyer brings up something he is sure is correct, which i fact is not, since I have spent a long time doing every conceivable type of installation I say 'hey actually, it's not like that, it's like this' and boom, you're the dumb guy. The diyer, and you will always hear about this, will go around telling everybody how stupid you are and how you don't know your ****... clearly a 12db per octave crossover slope is poor in comparison to a 24db crossover... three weeks later, you always get the car they worked on in your shop, probably with a 2x2ohm stereo amp with the thing wired up in 2 ohm mono with his buddy whining about how he bought this amp from you (on his sackless buddies direction.. note spoonfed 1 didn't show up) and it doesn't work.
> 
> Anyways, finally, I really gotta say again how easy it is for you diyers to cherry pick information and learn a single trick. As a b and m guy for YEARS (selling and installing) I can say with a pretty good degree of certainty, that given the pressure, and diversity of the vehicle fleet your skills probably wouldn't compete with a proficient b and m installer on any real scale, at least given a realistic timetable.
> 
> I always laugh when I see these threads on DIY mobile audio. Off axis response, lol, crossover slopes, lol, if that is what you think makes a successful car audio shop you are ou of your mind... quite honestly, the successful shops (which do quite a bit more than simply audio) don't give a **** about your sensitivities being hurt by not talking to you about that stuff. I bet, many of them (through experience) have learned that guys wading into the shop just to chat about cross over slopes and off axis response 99% of the time are not going to buy **** from you. It's the guy who walks in and asks for the price on a bit one and asks no other questions, that guy is the buyer... not some cheesedick who wants to talk about slopes and response, any buyer worth his salt who is interested in that **** knows the specifications of my equipment long before he walks into the shop.
> 
> Finally, the thing that drives these b and m shops are the things most of you diyers are too afraid to even contemplate, remote starters, security systems, believe me a good alarm and remote start guy is worth his weight in gold, leave the simple **** like putting speakers in a car to the diy crowd.
> 
> As far as car audio goes, and why it is devoid of talent... it's pretty obvious, the customers drive the good guys out of the business, they all go on to find real jobs that don't involve dealing with cheap know it all pricks and hangers out who couldn't hack it in the biz for themselves. the talent leaves because when you are exposed to the diversity of the field every single day, you develop skills which become highly valuable to others in professional fields, we have for the most part all moved on, and what you are left with are a few guys who know one or two things and everybody else who just doesn't give a ****... good luck filling your workforce with those guys.


I agree, although I would have worded it differently.


----------



## Fricasseekid

BoostedNihilist said:


> The internet is the problem, and not because of prices. The availability of information has really dumbed down the buying public. They know EVERYTHING so why bother having a guy in the shop with some brains.
> 
> I love it when a spoonfed DIYer would walk into the shop, asking about crossover slopes and off axis response as if he knew what it was. When those guys walked into my shop, I would usually avoid them like the plague, they always want to hang out and measure dicks, but they never want to buy anything, mostly because they have all the time in the world to learn about the three components they are interested in and no time to work so they can buy them.
> 
> Hey, if they want to come in and buy information from me, the information I spent my time learning, and then **** off to use it then I would be happy, but it never works like that. What happens, classically, is always like this, the diyer brings up something he is sure is correct, which i fact is not, since I have spent a long time doing every conceivable type of installation I say 'hey actually, it's not like that, it's like this' and boom, you're the dumb guy. The diyer, and you will always hear about this, will go around telling everybody how stupid you are and how you don't know your ****... clearly a 12db per octave crossover slope is poor in comparison to a 24db crossover... three weeks later, you always get the car they worked on in your shop, probably with a 2x2ohm stereo amp with the thing wired up in 2 ohm mono with his buddy whining about how he bought this amp from you (on his sackless buddies direction.. note spoonfed 1 didn't show up) and it doesn't work.
> 
> Anyways, finally, I really gotta say again how easy it is for you diyers to cherry pick information and learn a single trick. As a b and m guy for YEARS (selling and installing) I can say with a pretty good degree of certainty, that given the pressure, and diversity of the vehicle fleet your skills probably wouldn't compete with a proficient b and m installer on any real scale, at least given a realistic timetable.
> 
> I always laugh when I see these threads on DIY mobile audio. Off axis response, lol, crossover slopes, lol, if that is what you think makes a successful car audio shop you are ou of your mind... quite honestly, the successful shops (which do quite a bit more than simply audio) don't give a **** about your sensitivities being hurt by not talking to you about that stuff. I bet, many of them (through experience) have learned that guys wading into the shop just to chat about cross over slopes and off axis response 99% of the time are not going to buy **** from you. It's the guy who walks in and asks for the price on a bit one and asks no other questions, that guy is the buyer... not some cheesedick who wants to talk about slopes and response, any buyer worth his salt who is interested in that **** knows the specifications of my equipment long before he walks into the shop.
> 
> Finally, the thing that drives these b and m shops are the things most of you diyers are too afraid to even contemplate, remote starters, security systems, believe me a good alarm and remote start guy is worth his weight in gold, leave the simple **** like putting speakers in a car to the diy crowd.
> 
> As far as car audio goes, and why it is devoid of talent... it's pretty obvious, the customers drive the good guys out of the business, they all go on to find real jobs that don't involve dealing with cheap know it all pricks and hangers out who couldn't hack it in the biz for themselves. the talent leaves because when you are exposed to the diversity of the field every single day, you develop skills which become highly valuable to others in professional fields, we have for the most part all moved on, and what you are left with are a few guys who know one or two things and everybody else who just doesn't give a ****... good luck filling your workforce with those guys.


So eloquent.... 
and bitter too!


----------



## BoostedNihilist

touched a nerve did I?


----------



## cobb2819

Rudeboy said:


> Cobb may be a great guy and really skilled. I think it's likely that he saw an opportunity to give himself a little plug: "I'm happy to discuss this stuff with customers". Problem was, he chose to do it by mocking my comments, which led me to defend them. No harm in any of that at all.


No intent of mocking, and that quote isn't exactly accurate in context either. I was defending the way my B&M operates based on a blanket statement you made. The quote was far more detailed on the customer interaction. The other main and missing point that i stated is that any B&M employee SHOULD be able to speak to these concepts IF the customer asks. We are both standing ground and that should be able to be appreciated from both sides. I would like to clarify my statement a little. I was not plugging that anyone who wants to call, can. I simply stated that I, as a 1 man operated B&M, do not do what you stated, and that I greatly appreciate that you did not lump me in with the statistical B&M. 

It was mentioned here by another poster that the Internet is the problem, I don't think that is the case. I think the main point of this thread (that I am understanding) is the statistical B&M is only looking to make money, where there are a few of us left that would rather keep the industry alive and not have to make $40k a month to support my habits / lifestyle AND my business, by forcing crap product on people and having an "off the street" Joe Schmo clerking that product. I take conversations like this to heart because I love what I do, and my customers can tell. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## BoostedNihilist

people go into business to make money. Why aren't toyotas ferraris? because the ferrari market is either saturated or non-existent.

It is nice to talk about passion and all that fuzzy b.s. but in the end, you sell when people are buying, and that means you carry a lot of crappy product and staff your stores with minimum wage types so you can manage to eat.

All this about the 'statistical' b and m store is what I was talking about in my post. Someone has their panties in a bunch because the guy wouldnt talk slopes and responses, and now he is the idiot who doesn't know his ****, when in reality he probably used his sales skills to qualify the buyer, deciding in the end it was a waste of time to banter about **** that if you ask about you already know the answer to... he didn't want to play the penis measuring game (because he would probably win and whipping it out and repacking that ***** takes time he could be devoting to actually selling or installing gear)


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## cobb2819

BoostedNihilist said:


> It is nice to talk about passion and all that fuzzy b.s. but in the end, you sell when people are buying, and that means you carry a lot of crappy product and staff your stores with minimum wage types so you can manage to eat.


Again...statement like this are what I take to heart, because I don't stock crappy product and staff with minimum wage types to be able to move boxes out the door. You can do what you want, but don't use blanket statements.


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## BoostedNihilist

I did the same as you when I was still into car audio. 

Bottom line is though, that blanket statement works, you my friend, should be proud to be the exception to the rule.

Your business model will work well for a given store in a territory but it can't work on a large scale for every b and m, in fact it can't work for the majority.

Good for you for trying to keep it real, but honestly, a talented guy like you can use your skills in a real profession doing important things for society.


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## quietfly

BoostedNihilist said:


> people go into business to make money. Why aren't toyotas ferraris? because the ferrari market is either saturated or non-existent.
> 
> It is nice to talk about passion and all that fuzzy b.s. but in the end, you sell when people are buying, and that means you carry a lot of crappy product and staff your stores with minimum wage types so you can manage to eat.
> 
> All this about the 'statistical' b and m store is what I was talking about in my post. Someone has their panties in a bunch because the guy wouldnt talk slopes and responses, and now he is the idiot who doesn't know his ****, when in reality he probably used his sales skills to qualify the buyer, deciding in the end it was a waste of time to banter about **** that if you ask about you already know the answer to... he didn't want to play the penis measuring game (because he would probably win and whipping it out and repacking that ***** takes time he could be devoting to actually selling or installing gear)


Are you still a store owner? Is your B&M successful? 
While i understand a lot of your gripes, I don't necessarily understand your attitude towards customers with what you might consider to be a B/S question. 

I am that buyer that will go into a store and talk to staff and ask installers questions before i let them even touch my car. 
I have this issue now, I WANT to SPEND MONEY on an install, but can't find a competent shop near me to do the work. 
Let me tell you a story about "pre-qualifiing" the buyer. 

In 2001 I wanted to buy a Lexus IS300 I walked into Rallye Lexus of glen clove ny, and waited for about 20 mins. Finally a sales person walked up to me, and asked if he could help me, I said yes i was thinking of purchasing a lexus, and mid sentence before i could even tell him which one i wanted or what features i was interested in, he says to me, "well our used vehicle selection is located a few blocks down, i can give you directions" 
I was STUNNED, At the time i was working for one of the few industries that was making money hand over fist. I walked out and went to Lexus of Smithtown. they treated me respectfully, the sales person even talked about the traits of the car and about 3hours later I completed the purchase. the day i had the car delivered, i made sure to take the drive over to Rallye Lexus, find the sales manager, and told him what happened under his watch, showed him the paper work for my new car NOT purchased from him and told him that I would go out of my way to make sure NONE of my friends or relatives would EVER buy a car from ANY Rallye dealership. 
I have since referred 5 more new Lexus sales to Lexus of Smithtown. 
So for "per-qualifing" me and not taking the time to Rallye Lexus has loss over 100k in gross sales. I know that does not seem like much over 10 years, but still it's enough. 

Moral of the story, 
One persons crappy attitude can have HUGE effects on a business based on sales. 
Maybe i'm reading too much in to your posts, but I doubt i'd walk in to your store and spend $600.00 on an MS-8 2000.00 on Amps, 2000.00 on speakers, and GOD KNOWS how much on installation and custom work, if you treated me the way described in your posts. 


Yet here i sit with all that equipment and no one to install it for me, so YEAH, i'll do it myself......


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## Fricasseekid

BoostedNihilist said:


> touched a nerve did I?


Perhaps you did... It does kind of touch a nerve when someone makes such presumptuous and generalized statements about me without knowing the entire story. If you actually read the posts I've made in this thread thn you'd see that my experiences with my local B&M shops didn't go the way you tell it, and I must be on to something because this thread has struck a chord with alot of respectable people, from both ends of the spectrum. 

But interestingly enough, amid the tangled, mangled, and convoluted block of words and trash talk you posted, there was actually a couple of thought provoking points you made. Once you ignore all the generalizations that is...

Yes, there is "Joe know it all" that comes along and wants to measure knowledge, try to show off, and probably won't buy a damn thing. But that hardly discounts the 1000s of DIYers out there who do know their stuff and don't appreciate having garbage ideas and equipment shoehorned down their throats and having their wallets raped at the same time. Sure there are salesman that really know their stuff and choose not to have those discussions with the wrong customer. But they seem to be the minority this day and age. In my recent experience a salesman/install guy (the shops near me seem to multitask their employees) that barely knows the difference between parallel and series wiring and wants to tell me why 10" shallow subs will always sound better than 12" shallow, seems to be more the norm. 
These same guys are the ones who seem to portray snobbery and have attitudes that remind me alot of the one your preaching from here.

I feel I can profile what your shop must've been like just as easily as you seem to be profiling your former customers.


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## cobb2819

Fricasseekid said:


> snobbery


HAHA...awesome!!!


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## BoostedNihilist

Fricasseekid said:


> Perhaps you did... It does kind of touch a nerve when someone makes such presumptuous and generalized statements about me without knowing the entire story. If you actually read the posts I've made in this thread thn you'd see that my experiences with my local B&M shops didn't go the way you tell it, and I must be on to something because this thread has struck a chord with alot of respectable people, from both ends of the spectrum.
> 
> But interestingly enough, amid the tangled, mangled, and convoluted block of words and trash talk you posted, there was actually a couple of thought provoking points you made. Once you ignore all the generalizations that is...
> 
> Yes, there is "Joe know it all" that comes along and wants to measure knowledge, try to show off, and probably won't buy a damn thing. But that hardly discounts the 1000s of DIYers out there who do know their stuff and don't appreciate having garbage ideas and equipment shoehorned down their throats and having their wallets raped at the same time. Sure there are salesman that really know their stuff and choose not to have those discussions with the wrong customer. But they seem to be the minority this day and age. In my recent experience a salesman/install guy (the shops near me seem to multitask their employees) that barely knows the difference between parallel and series wiring and wants to tell me why 10" shallow subs will always sound better than 12" shallow, seems to be more the norm.
> These same guys are the ones who seem to portray snobbery and have attitudes that remind me alot of the one your preaching from here.
> 
> I feel I can profile what your shop must've been like just as easily as you seem to be profiling your former customers.


Im glad you are getting that vibe about my place, because that is the vibe I want you to get. See, how this qualifying works, I see a dog, and I walk it.  and it works well. Ive seen what you've written about the B and M stores, and it is the classical dick measurement endeavour veiled in a question. Whatever you might be fooling yourself, but i can see what is really going on here.

I didnt NEED to leave car audio, I chose to. I did it even taking a pay cut to do something I think is a way better use of my skills. For me audiophile works well as a hobby, but as an occupation it is kinda hollow and unrewarding. I will always enjoy installation, and I will always love being and audiophile but like pretty much all the talent, I'm over it. What you are left with is guys just out of school who literally don't know ****, who have parents who don't know ****... small wonder they can't do ****. These kids didn't live through the glory days, they don't know what the grassroots of car audio was like, all they know is what is provided for them right now... which is nowhere near the best representation of how the industry can be.


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## Fricasseekid

BoostedNihilist said:


> Im glad you are getting that vibe about my place, because that is the vibe I want you to get. See, how this qualifying works, I see a dog, and I walk it.  and it works well. Ive seen what you've written about the B and M stores, and it is the classical dick measurement endeavour veiled in a question. Whatever you might be fooling yourself, but i can see what is really going on here.
> 
> I didnt NEED to leave car audio, I chose to. I did it even taking a pay cut to do something I think is a way better use of my skills. For me audiophile works well as a hobby, but as an occupation it is kinda hollow and unrewarding. I will always enjoy installation, and I will always love being and audiophile but like pretty much all the talent, I'm over it. What you are left with is guys just out of school who literally don't know ****, who have parents who don't know ****... small wonder they can't do ****. These kids didn't live through the glory days, they don't know what the grassroots of car audio was like, all they know is what is provided for them right now... which is nowhere near the best representation of how the industry can be.


Every ideal you preach about sounds good and all except for one major gaping hole in your logic. It's that you presume to know so much about people. 

I'll have you know that when I first got back into car audio after a 10 year hiatus, I went to a B&M shop up the road from my house. Its one with whom I've done business before. I knew very little compared to what I know now. I went into the shop, took their advice, and bought a few hundred dollars worth of crap. I wouldve bought my whole system there. But the more I started to research, the more I learned that they were full of **** and I could do way better for my dollar on my own. So I was a customer that was willing to spend money and the fact that I am now not a customer willing to spend money is well justified. 

You should read the whole thread.


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## BoostedNihilist

Fricasseekid said:


> Every ideal you preach about sounds good and all except for one major gaping hole in your logic. It's that you presume to know so much about people.
> 
> I'll have you know that when I first got back into car audio after a 10 year hiatus, I went to a B&M shop up the road from my house. Its one with whom I've done business before. I knew very little compared to what I know now. I went into the shop, took their advice, and bought a few hundred dollars worth of crap. I wouldve bought my whole system there. But as the more I started to research, the I learned that they were full of **** and I could do way better for my dollar on my own. So I was a customer that was willing to spend money and the fact that I am now not a customer willing to spend money is well justified.
> 
> You should read the whole thread.


I do know a lot about a lot of audiophiles. Being in the business for ten years gives you that perspective. How many years did you spend doing audio full time? Other than a few bad experiences with your local b and m shops, where do you gain your perspective.

I don't know everything about everyone, but I am excellent at reading customers who buy audio equipment. I got to live the nuances of the industry every day of my life for a long, long time, so I definitely know that I am in a better position to speak to the totality of the situation than you are. I'm not slagging you for it, I am just saying you have limited perspective and perhaps you can use some of the information I have given you to manipulate the situation to benefit you. That's what I would be doing.

The job of a salesperson is to sell stuff, not educate the customer. I personally knew my product line inside and out, crossover slopes, etc etc. I Needed to know it for the installation, so if someone came in asking me for a complete system, they would get something that works. The guys who came in asking about all that stuff are a waste of time simply because they were motivated enough to go learn what that **** means but not motivated enough to go online and find a product that does it. Like I said, if someone came in and asked a bunch of questions about the bit one, waste of time, the guy who comes in and asks how much for this... not a waste of time. The only people who consistently come in and want education aren't generally looking for education at all, they are looking to measure dicks..

Seriously, how many times can you have the same guy come in telling you his magnaplanar speakers are the single most perfect point source ever conceived before you want to hop on an airplane with richie valens... about five, six? ten plus years man... every day.


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## Fricasseekid

BoostedNihilist said:


> I do know a lot about a lot of audiophiles. Being in the business for ten years gives you that perspective. How many years did you spend doing audio full time? Other than a few bad experiences with your local b and m shops, where do you gain your perspective.
> 
> I don't know everything about everyone, but I am excellent at reading customers who buy audio equipment. I got to live the nuances of the industry every day of my life for a long, long time, so I definitely know that I am in a better position to speak to the totality of the situation than you are. I'm not slagging you for it, I am just saying you have limited perspective and perhaps you can use some of the information I have given you to manipulate the situation to benefit you. That's what I would be doing.
> 
> The job of a salesperson is to sell stuff, not educate the customer. I personally knew my product line inside and out, crossover slopes, etc etc. I Needed to know it for the installation, so if someone came in asking me for a complete system, they would get something that works. The guys who came in asking about all that stuff are a waste of time simply because they were motivated enough to go learn what that **** means but not motivated enough to go online and find a product that does it. Like I said, if someone came in and asked a bunch of questions about the bit one, waste of time, the guy who comes in and asks how much for this... not a waste of time. The only people who consistently come in and want education aren't generally looking for education at all, they are looking to measure dicks..
> 
> Seriously, how many times can you have the same guy come in telling you his magnaplanar speakers are the single most perfect point source ever conceived before you want to hop on an airplane with richie valens... about five, six? ten plus years man... every day.


I never presumed to know anything about the industry as a whole. I simply know what the situation is like in my neck of the woods and I started this thread cause I wanted to find out if other people around the nation felt the same way. As it turns out, many of them do! 

You seemed to imply that I was a specific type of customer and that the B&M shops I was dealing with may have known their **** but chose to not get involved with me. You seem to know a bit about the industry but as for these presumptions, your wrong. I can't help that othe people seem to share my point of view and have had similar experiences with their local B&Ms. 

I'm sure there are some great B&Ms left and that many of them are still dedicated to the art of great sound. But I wish there was one near me. From my limited experiences and what I've read/heard from others, this type of shop is the minority and the audiophiles they cater to is a market that is dwindling. Not because there are less audiophiles, but because audiophiles have more practical resources available to them these days.


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## rc10mike

Example:

I had a friend at work talking about getting a system in his car. I told him about all the gear I had and was willing to give him a good deal on stuff, I could outfit his entire car minus the HU, with gear much better than her could get at the local BM stores, for less money.

What did he do?

Spent over $1000 on two 12" JL W3s, a box, some 5x7 coaxials.


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## cobb2819

BoostedNihilist said:


> The job of a salesperson is to sell stuff, not educate the customer.


The job of a clerk is to sell product. The job of a salesman is to sell them selves and educate the customer. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## dman

Seriously if any of you guys thinks its product or knowledge or whether or not to spend time with a DIYer that makes or breaks a B&M store then you need to rethink the whole process.... It takes a hell of alot more to stay in business, than to try to make a DIY guy happy, or even a complete dont have a clue customer.. If your in business PERIOD! You need to make a profit to keep the doors open.. And if your not making 40 points somehow, your doors are shutting...At least the respectable ones! Now go around to those shops that are selling the **** stuff, and start asking to see certificates of GARAGE KEEPERS INS, and posted wormans comp, and Gen. liabilities and building ins., etc.. 95% dont have, or didnt even have a clue that there are differnent policies to cover certain things.. your customers slip and fall isnt covered under your garage keepers (if you have it), and vice versa.. Liabilities are a son of a ***** now days... and to carry everything to keep you covered from one bad mistake or the THIEF ass that wants what you carry gets expensive.. Not to mention a damn good installer worth his weight in gold will demand top pay, and should get such... Im not defending any bad shops, it is what it is, but i am defending the right to make a living to pay your bills and to support your families. And there is no real reason to ***** about any shop, just DONT do your business there if you feel that way, the unfortunate reality is for every 1 customer of a ****ty shop that wont spend their money there, there is always a replacement customer that will.. In the long run, it may hurt that shop, but again who really cares, just take your business elsewhere to a shop that fits your needs, and worse case scenario, you do your own installs... but i also agree to a point, if your a DIY guy, thats great, but please dont expect to be seasoned by a great installer on their dime... Most really good installers, have years of experience and schooling, and they pay for it one way or another.. And while many of you may believe your best friend in the world will be your best friend no matter what ever happens.. Burn his damn car to the ground with a install mistake, see how long he still calls you buddy! Insurance is no joke, and we live in a SUE happy world! If ever dealing with a shop, your first question should be if they have insurance to cover any mishaps while YOUR vehicle is in their possesion.. Again, not being a ass or anything, and sure dont want to come accross as one, but trying to point out many things.. Alot of people know me on here, and some have been to my shop.. Ive had to change with the times, some good, some bad, but change regardless... I absolutely LOVE what i do, but not at the expense of my family.. So the everyday installs went bye bye, i expanded into other things, and on the car side, only certain installs are only done to be sure my expenses are covered from a pretty select customer base... Other shops may have went the cheap equiptment route in order to try to stay in business, selling crap is not the best move, buy maybe their only move they feel, but honestly you can take a whole lot of **** and make it sound good with the right install, but then again some of these shops decide the high school kid can do the installs, instead of getting a really good installer.. its all economical now.. The economy is total ****, and unfortunately shops are shaving, and only hurting themselves, and the manufacturers really dont help like they used to, its a big downhill roll of the POO!!! Not to mention, hell cars are sounding better than ever straight from the factory, giving people less and less of a need to upgrade.... I have never seen so many shops just in the DALLAS area alone open and close within a year, just because you can install your own stuff, and do a GREAT job of it, does NOT mean you can successfully run a business, it takes more than that.... and heaven forbid, you hire you a thieving coniving employee, then it only gets worse.. And believe me, they get sneaky on your ass... I once sold a nice head unit to a customer only to find out the box was nicely stuffed with a brick... And people wonder why i rotate stock bottom to top biweekly now, lol.. 

Anyway, good luck to all and dont come down hard on each other.. Thats the nature of these forums, we all have opinions, thats what makes the boards so good.. 

EVERYONE, have a GREAT XMAS to you and your families.. Thats whats really important, Family and Loved Ones..


----------



## jonnyanalog

I grew up in what I call the golden era of car audio the early to late 90s. I Hung out at the local car audio shop quite a bit, bought all of my gear there. I liked the installers because I gleened knowledge from them. They would sit me in some of the super highend comp cars they would build and show me the ins and outs of why they did certain things to meet the rules but also to make the install special. They always took care of me and treated my truck like it was a competiton quality install even though it wasn't even close. As time wore on I went to college, got into auto crossing, then got busy with my first job. Audio took a backseat to everything....i guess I just lost interest and burned out. I recently have dabbled in car audio again over past couple of years. I have a relatively big family so my dad duties come first. When I recently went into a local shop it was not like it was back when I was a kid. It looked to be manned by 2 high school drop out ******** who wanted nothing more than to upsell me on just about everything except what I really came in there for. Plus the manager who supposedly installs home audio gear couldn't figure out how to wire up an Lcd tv to a laptop and then tie that into the 2 channel stereo. And this was for my employer who had their own national distributors coming in for a presentation. Do you think I would give that clown my business? The next closest shop in 2 hours away! 
I started doing my own installs lately not because I'm cheap but because I want to learn! I'm gonna fiberglass my first box here soon if the weather stays warm and my apillars to boot. There is nothing more satisfying than knowing you did it on your own. 
I don't think the audio enthusiast is a dying breed, I think its gone dormant or underground....


----------



## bassfromspace

dman said:


> Seriously if any of you guys thinks its product or knowledge or whether or not to spend time with a DIYer that makes or breaks a B&M store then you need to rethink the whole process.... It takes a hell of alot more to stay in business, than to try to make a DIY guy happy, or even a complete dont have a clue customer.. If your in business PERIOD! You need to make a profit to keep the doors open.. And if your not making 40 points somehow, your doors are shutting...At least the respectable ones! Now go around to those shops that are selling the **** stuff, and start asking to see certificates of GARAGE KEEPERS INS, and posted wormans comp, and Gen. liabilities and building ins., etc.. 95% dont have, or didnt even have a clue that there are differnent policies to cover certain things.. your customers slip and fall isnt covered under your garage keepers (if you have it), and vice versa.. Liabilities are a son of a ***** now days... and to carry everything to keep you covered from one bad mistake or the THIEF ass that wants what you carry gets expensive.. Not to mention a damn good installer worth his weight in gold will demand top pay, and should get such... Im not defending any bad shops, it is what it is, but i am defending the right to make a living to pay your bills and to support your families. And there is no real reason to ***** about any shop, just DONT do your business there if you feel that way, the unfortunate reality is for every 1 customer of a ****ty shop that wont spend their money there, there is always a replacement customer that will.. In the long run, it may hurt that shop, but again who really cares, just take your business elsewhere to a shop that fits your needs, and worse case scenario, you do your own installs... but i also agree to a point, if your a DIY guy, thats great, but please dont expect to be seasoned by a great installer on their dime... Most really good installers, have years of experience and schooling, and they pay for it one way or another.. And while many of you may believe your best friend in the world will be your best friend no matter what ever happens.. Burn his damn car to the ground with a install mistake, see how long he still calls you buddy! Insurance is no joke, and we live in a SUE happy world! If ever dealing with a shop, your first question should be if they have insurance to cover any mishaps while YOUR vehicle is in their possesion.. Again, not being a ass or anything, and sure dont want to come accross as one, but trying to point out many things.. Alot of people know me on here, and some have been to my shop.. Ive had to change with the times, some good, some bad, but change regardless... I absolutely LOVE what i do, but not at the expense of my family.. So the everyday installs went bye bye, i expanded into other things, and on the car side, only certain installs are only done to be sure my expenses are covered from a pretty select customer base... Other shops may have went the cheap equiptment route in order to try to stay in business, selling crap is not the best move, buy maybe their only move they feel, but honestly you can take a whole lot of **** and make it sound good with the right install, but then again some of these shops decide the high school kid can do the installs, instead of getting a really good installer.. its all economical now.. The economy is total ****, and unfortunately shops are shaving, and only hurting themselves, and the manufacturers really dont help like they used to, its a big downhill roll of the POO!!! Not to mention, hell cars are sounding better than ever straight from the factory, giving people less and less of a need to upgrade.... *I have never seen so many shops just in the DALLAS area alone open and close within a year*, just because you can install your own stuff, and do a GREAT job of it, does NOT mean you can successfully run a business, it takes more than that.... and heaven forbid, you hire you a thieving coniving employee, then it only gets worse.. And believe me, they get sneaky on your ass... I once sold a nice head unit to a customer only to find out the box was nicely stuffed with a brick... And people wonder why i rotate stock bottom to top biweekly now, lol..
> 
> Anyway, good luck to all and dont come down hard on each other.. Thats the nature of these forums, we all have opinions, thats what makes the boards so good..
> 
> EVERYONE, have a GREAT XMAS to you and your families.. Thats whats really important, Family and Loved Ones..


I'm in DFW and I can't think of one single shop I'd take my car to here.


----------



## dman

bassfromspace said:


> I'm in DFW and I can't think of one single shop I'd take my car to here.


im sure you know every single shop as well? if you dont like any shops then you have reasons behind them, ie: quality of install, products, they dont bend to your likings, you can do all your own installs therefore you need no one, i mean you have a reason i assume, lol.. possibility of mutual acceptance as well.. and you DID highlight a quote "*I have never seen so many shops just in the DALLAS area alone open and close within a year"*.. What exactly does that quote have to do with taking your car somewhere in DFW.. NO shops were mentioned other than a statement of so many opening and closing.. There are some good installation shops in the DFW area, some may be pricey, but do put out quality work, they may not be a fan of yours but again everyone has a choice...


----------



## dman

jonnyanalog said:


> I grew up in what I call the golden era of car audio the early to late 90s. I Hung out at the local car audio shop quite a bit, bought all of my gear there. I liked the installers because I gleened knowledge from them. They would sit me in some of the super highend comp cars they would build and show me the ins and outs of why they did certain things to meet the rules but also to make the install special. They always took care of me and treated my truck like it was a competiton quality install even though it wasn't even close. As time wore on I went to college, got into auto crossing, then got busy with my first job. Audio took a backseat to everything....i guess I just lost interest and burned out. I recently have dabbled in car audio again over past couple of years. I have a relatively big family so my dad duties come first. When I recently went into a local shop it was not like it was back when I was a kid. It looked to be manned by 2 high school drop out ******** who wanted nothing more than to upsell me on just about everything except what I really came in there for. Plus the manager who supposedly installs home audio gear couldn't figure out how to wire up an Lcd tv to a laptop and then tie that into the 2 channel stereo. And this was for my employer who had their own national distributors coming in for a presentation. Do you think I would give that clown my business? The next closest shop in 2 hours away!
> I started doing my own installs lately not because I'm cheap but because I want to learn! I'm gonna fiberglass my first box here soon if the weather stays warm and my apillars to boot. There is nothing more satisfying than knowing you did it on your own.
> I don't think the audio enthusiast is a dying breed, I think its gone dormant or underground....



Ahhh, the early to mid 90's were the best... Custom was at full swing, and the soundoffs were galore.. I remember doing a event in early 2004, all i got was a nasty visit from the PD and a warning citation, and we had to shut it down... The good old days are gone, we just have to make due now., lol..


----------



## Fricasseekid

jonnyanalog said:


> I grew up in what I call the golden era of car audio the early to late 90s. I Hung out at the local car audio shop quite a bit, bought all of my gear there. I liked the installers because I gleened knowledge from them. They would sit me in some of the super highend comp cars they would build and show me the ins and outs of why they did certain things to meet the rules but also to make the install special. They always took care of me and treated my truck like it was a competiton quality install even though it wasn't even close. As time wore on I went to college, got into auto crossing, then got busy with my first job. Audio took a backseat to everything....i guess I just lost interest and burned out. I recently have dabbled in car audio again over past couple of years. I have a relatively big family so my dad duties come first. When I recently went into a local shop it was not like it was back when I was a kid. It looked to be manned by 2 high school drop out ******** who wanted nothing more than to upsell me on just about everything except what I really came in there for. Plus the manager who supposedly installs home audio gear couldn't figure out how to wire up an Lcd tv to a laptop and then tie that into the 2 channel stereo. And this was for my employer who had their own national distributors coming in for a presentation. Do you think I would give that clown my business? The next closest shop in 2 hours away!
> I started doing my own installs lately not because I'm cheap but because I want to learn! I'm gonna fiberglass my first box here soon if the weather stays warm and my apillars to boot. There is nothing more satisfying than knowing you did it on your own.
> I don't think the audio enthusiast is a dying breed, I think its gone dormant or underground....


This sounds alot more like my experiences with my local shops.


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## Fricasseekid

I'm not stating what I think shops should do to stay in business here. I understand that they do what they must to stay in business. But cheap installs, crappy equipment, poor customer service? Come one man?! They're just selling out for the dollar. This thread was simply started because it makes me sad that B&M shops seem to have lost something they had 10 years ago. Sure there are good install shops left. But again I say, there are none near me. All the shops in my area seem to have forgotten that audio is an art and customers are to be respected whether they wanna spend $20 on some interconnects, $200 on your crappy bass package, or $2000 on HUs and amps.


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## Darth SQ

Let's keep it on topic.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Porsche

gotta love these topics, the so called audiophile is usually the worse client to have


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## ANT

BoostedNihilist said:


> The internet is the problem, and not because of prices. The availability of information has really dumbed down the buying public. They know EVERYTHING so why bother having a guy in the shop with some brains.
> 
> I love it when a spoonfed DIYer would walk into the shop, asking about crossover slopes and off axis response as if he knew what it was. When those guys walked into my shop, I would usually avoid them like the plague, they always want to hang out and measure dicks, but they never want to buy anything, mostly because they have all the time in the world to learn about the three components they are interested in and no time to work so they can buy them.
> 
> Hey, if they want to come in and buy information from me, the information I spent my time learning, and then **** off to use it then I would be happy, but it never works like that. What happens, classically, is always like this, the diyer brings up something he is sure is correct, which i fact is not, since I have spent a long time doing every conceivable type of installation I say 'hey actually, it's not like that, it's like this' and boom, you're the dumb guy. The diyer, and you will always hear about this, will go around telling everybody how stupid you are and how you don't know your ****... clearly a 12db per octave crossover slope is poor in comparison to a 24db crossover... three weeks later, you always get the car they worked on in your shop, probably with a 2x2ohm stereo amp with the thing wired up in 2 ohm mono with his buddy whining about how he bought this amp from you (on his sackless buddies direction.. note spoonfed 1 didn't show up) and it doesn't work.
> 
> Anyways, finally, I really gotta say again how easy it is for you diyers to cherry pick information and learn a single trick. As a b and m guy for YEARS (selling and installing) I can say with a pretty good degree of certainty, that given the pressure, and diversity of the vehicle fleet your skills probably wouldn't compete with a proficient b and m installer on any real scale, at least given a realistic timetable.
> 
> I always laugh when I see these threads on DIY mobile audio. Off axis response, lol, crossover slopes, lol, if that is what you think makes a successful car audio shop you are ou of your mind... quite honestly, the successful shops (which do quite a bit more than simply audio) don't give a **** about your sensitivities being hurt by not talking to you about that stuff. I bet, many of them (through experience) have learned that guys wading into the shop just to chat about cross over slopes and off axis response 99% of the time are not going to buy **** from you. It's the guy who walks in and asks for the price on a bit one and asks no other questions, that guy is the buyer... not some cheesedick who wants to talk about slopes and response, any buyer worth his salt who is interested in that **** knows the specifications of my equipment long before he walks into the shop.
> 
> Finally, the thing that drives these b and m shops are the things most of you diyers are too afraid to even contemplate, remote starters, security systems, believe me a good alarm and remote start guy is worth his weight in gold, leave the simple **** like putting speakers in a car to the diy crowd.
> 
> As far as car audio goes, and why it is devoid of talent... it's pretty obvious, the customers drive the good guys out of the business, they all go on to find real jobs that don't involve dealing with cheap know it all pricks and hangers out who couldn't hack it in the biz for themselves. the talent leaves because when you are exposed to the diversity of the field every single day, you develop skills which become highly valuable to others in professional fields, we have for the most part all moved on, and what you are left with are a few guys who know one or two things and everybody else who just doesn't give a ****... good luck filling your workforce with those guys.


The way I see it, the internet is not the problem.
The industry itself is the problem. Half assed journeyman training systems with no accredited methods or schools in which to train/educate the workforce that represents the industry itself.
Hacks, that provide shady work, act like know it alls and belittle customers and forum members rather than educate them, usually because they know just as much or even less than the customers and forum members they criticize but are too stubborn to admit it.

Dinosaurs that refuse to grow with the times the industry. Dinosaurs that would rather keep secrets to themselves in a sad attempt at protecting their craft rather than embrace the Internet as a tool to educate the customer then rely on their talent and creativity to set themselves apart from the hacks.

Liars, cheats, thieves, hacks, scammers and dinosaurs. That is what the majority of shops employ and promote and that's why so many people turn to doing installs themselves. They are tired of of the 9:1 ratio of hacks:experts in the retail world.

It is the hacks and dinosaurs that make the B&M shops look bad, and it is the experts that refuse to educate the online community that help perpetuate the negative image. The B&M shops need to start policing themselves and the industry and stop crying about the internet, transhippers and forums and start stepping up their game.
If more shops stopped worrying about losing busines to the internet and cared more about educating the customers, the forums and the shops would be much better off.

Very few actually get it.
One that does is Bing (simplicityinsound). He embraces the Internet, the forums and more importantly, his own talent. He is not afraid to show off his work, help the noobs and lose a sale in order to help inform the consumers. 

That is why forums like this and so many exist. Because though they are also full of 9:1 hacks:experts, and often taste like ****, they provide a safe haven from the usual **** consumers have been eating for the last 30 years as a result of hacks and dinosaurs failing the customers.

Any shop owner here that is worth a damn knows exactly how many crap ass shops there are in the world.
Just like bad mechanics, bad plumbers and bad electricians, our industry is no different. Hacks will always exist. It is up to the true experts to pull up the slack from all the deadbeat shops and require more from our industry.

But what would I know..

ANT


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## Angrywhopper

Ant, I dont know much about you, but do you currently run a B&M?

So many shop owners/employees will tell you stories about educating the customer, only to be told at the end that it's cheaper online. Most customers dont see the value of the education, only the price tag.

I think the problem isn't revolved around a single issue. More like:

-Internet sellers selling at or slightly above cost.
-Customers that think they're smart because they read something online.
-Shop owners not adjusting to the changing market.
-New cars are sounding better and better from the factory every year.
-Industry dying because listening to a 128kbs mp3 on their iPhone is good enough for the American market.


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## cobb2819

Angrywhopper said:


> -Industry dying because listening to a 128kbs mp3 on their iPhone is good enough for the American market.


This is funny and true. I love when someone comes to pickup their car after an install, plug in their iPod with music they've downloaded and go "how come my iPod doesn't sound as good as yours?!?"




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Seattle Esotar

Wow. Great thread! I've been a single store owner/operator/floor sweeper since 1990. I've experienced everything I'm reading countless times. I'm obviously on the side of the guys here who own/have owned stores or worked in the industry. At the same time, I get it that some consumers end up being frustrated and go the DIY route. I'm small time(me and 2 others). I've seen dozens of stores come and go in my city. Some taken out by the internet competition, some due to shoddy work, ie, too many comebacks. Thieving employees. Bad check writers. Warranty is a huge issue. Every comeback=free labor. Anyways, it's like any business. We love it but, if you cannot make rent/or a living, it makes no sense.

We have people come in to shop and listen to product we are an authorized dealer for all the time. I call some of them time wasters. Some are very well disguised. They never have any intention of purchasing from us and supporting their local dealer. They simply want to hear/see/touch the product and then scour the internet for the cheapest price. Sometimes even returning later with the entire system we designed and want us to honor our labor quote. We do not. Usually labor doubles on internet product but usually we just won't do the job at all. Not that I don't respect people or their enthusiasm for audio. Not at all. But this is how I make my living too. 

Manufacturers have hurt us as well. We've been a ID dealer since the 90's. Can't tell you how many times I've had people so excited after hearing a demo vehicle and then buy from some online retailer selling way below MAP(minimum advertised price). I remember getting warned by my Pioneer rep for selling a deck too cheap back in the 90's. Those days are over. I lost a customer couple years back due to the internet. Quoted the guy 10k for a custom system in his 997 TT. Product included a Pioneer AVIC Z110, Tru Technology amp/line driver, Dynaudio speakers, fiberglass sub enclosure for 2-10's. I was being waaay too generous. Not sure why I quoted so cheap. I get a email back from the guy saying to either lower the price or cancel the system. Why? He googled the AVIC and came up with $999 at the top listing on Google. The unit "retailed", full MSRP for $2,200. Pioneer MAP was $2,000. I quoted him$1,700 on the unit. My profit was not much but I'm making $ on the install. He said, "If I can buy online for $700 less than your price, I'm sure you're making lots more than that and probably those same margins on the rest of the gear". My Pioneer rep had no good answer except it's probably coming from a retailer going under. I've lost some of my best installers over the years to the home audio industry simply because the "hack shops" (you know who you are) have driven labor prices down. We're doing well but it takes more work thatn the good old days. You have to stay up on new technologies and stay relevant. I'm glad the shops that don't offer much besides maybe cheap labor are going under. 

Bottom Line, if there is no profit in it, there will be nobody left doing it. DIY at home is great but not everyone can be an expert at everything. Support your qualified BM shop. The bad ones will eventually go away.


----------



## dman

heres a good one for you... i caught on to this a couple years ago.. And i know a few distributors who have jumped on board.. All sales are down including manufacturers and distributors.. I had a customer we had quoted a job for, pretty darn fair rate as well, i believe was in the neighborhood of $4500, give or take a few hundred, lots of equiptment.. Any way long story short, customer had gotten another quote, IDENTICAL product, but was shaving close to a grand off bill.. I would have been more than happy to match, IF I COULD..... but for the life of me, i could not figure out how in the hell he was getting so cheap, there was literally no profit in there by time everybody got paid (installers, materials, equiptment, etc...), so i just figured he was boldly just lying to me.. And in a nice way i kinda insinuated as much.. as i said, something is not right.. I even pulled some sheets and say HEY LOOK, heres my cost, and as far as labor, i cant go any lower, i have to pay my guys.. (trying to make this short), any way, he was a nice customer, and pretty straight forward, and said he just needed to save the money, and the shop he was going to was somehow connected to the manufacturer or something, again im like YEAH RIGHT, COME ON.. anyway, he tells me shop name, Well i never heard of them, he tells me where they are at, im like ok, man, sorry i couldnt do better for you.. Any way, a few weeks later, im out and about picking up stuff, and i remember the area the customer had said, i drove up and down the street he said was on, and seen the SMALL sign, any way went in, and hell OF ALL BE, the first person i seen coming from the back room was my very own sales guy from my local distributor, Im like hey man whats up, he said OH just dropping off some stuff to our shop, UH hesitation, and i ask, your shop, he's like UH well UH no, i mean kinda, UH well UH, gotta run.... he leaves, and im fixing to leave, and as im walking out, I see a guy i knew quite well (installer, who i tried to hire a few different times) walking from his car to the side install door, we say hi, and im like man, havnt seen you in a while, what are you doing here, i thought you were working for Jeff, and he proceeds to tell me how the distributor opened the shop, and got him from (JEFF) to come be the lead installer and install manager (damn and with full health benefits).. And i pretty much find out, they are selling to the general public equiptment at the SAME damn price we as dealers are paying (and you know the distributor pays less).. Hell i was pissed, i visited my sales guy the next day, bitching at what they are doing.. He's like ah man were keeping it under wraps, not trying to hurt our dealer base... BUT **** he done hurt me on one sale.. I cant compete with giving product at my cost.. And then he had the nerve to tell me if we get backed up, and we refer a install we get a couple percent credit on our account, like HELL i am.... anyway, sorry this is so long.. but thats plain ****ty on their part.. but i guess i give them kudo's for getting a guy ive tried several times to get... Still sucks!!


----------



## BoostedNihilist

DIYMA said:


> The way I see it, the internet is not the problem.
> The industry itself is the problem. Half assed journeyman training systems with no accredited methods or schools in which to train/educate the workforce that represents the industry itself.
> Hacks, that provide shady work, act like know it alls and belittle customers and forum members rather than educate them, usually because they know just as much or even less than the customers and forum members they criticize but are too stubborn to admit it.
> 
> Dinosaurs that refuse to grow with the times the industry. Dinosaurs that would rather keep secrets to themselves in a sad attempt at protecting their craft rather than embrace the Internet as a tool to educate the customer then rely on their talent and creativity to set themselves apart from the hacks.
> 
> Liars, cheats, thieves, hacks, scammers and dinosaurs. That is what the majority of shops employ and promote and that's why so many people turn to doing installs themselves. They are tired of of the 9:1 ratio of hacks:experts in the retail world.
> 
> It is the hacks and dinosaurs that make the B&M shops look bad, and it is the experts that refuse to educate the online community that help perpetuate the negative image. The B&M shops need to start policing themselves and the industry and stop crying about the internet, transhippers and forums and start stepping up their game.
> If more shops stopped worrying about losing busines to the internet and cared more about educating the customers, the forums and the shops would be much better off.
> 
> Very few actually get it.
> One that does is Bing (simplicityinsound). He embraces the Internet, the forums and more importantly, his own talent. He is not afraid to show off his work, help the noobs and lose a sale in order to help inform the consumers.
> 
> That is why forums like this and so many exist. Because though they are also full of 9:1 hacks:experts, and often taste like ****, they provide a safe haven from the usual **** consumers have been eating for the last 30 years as a result of hacks and dinosaurs failing the customers.
> 
> Any shop owner here that is worth a damn knows exactly how many crap ass shops there are in the world.
> Just like bad mechanics, bad plumbers and bad electricians, our industry is no different. Hacks will always exist. It is up to the true experts to pull up the slack from all the deadbeat shops and require more from our industry.
> 
> But what would I know..
> 
> ANT



It's not my job or responsibility to educate anybody other than myself. 

It is funny that you would call those who wish to keep trade secrets trade secrets.. what is your recipe down to the milligram used to create secondskin... yeah, didn't think so. 

Those 'secrets' are what keep us profitable to a large degree. There is an old addage, giving you the hammer to tap the part with is free, telling you where to tap the part to make it work, is what will cost you. I am not big on spoonfeeding neophytes the know how and technique I had to work hard to acquire, as I very much doubt you would simply give away your formula for secondskin. If that makes me a dinosaur then so be it. 

Yeah, I went out and payed for the best training I could get at the time (mobile dynamics) but it was *BARELY* a start, 90% of the stuff I know came from figuring that **** out myself, there was no internet to run to, just good old fashioned brains. Which brings me to your point about the professionalism of car audio... it simply doesn't exist because there is no qualification, I completely agree that is something that works against the industry. Unfortunately, i cannot imagine what a trades course on this subject would even look like.... one thing is for sure, it would wash out most of the installers, and most of the people on this site (not the joke called MECP Im talking hardcore electrical and installation theory/practical)

It's not liars and cheats and dinosaurs ruining the industry, it is the general dumbing down of society that is ruining the industry. Nobody with any experience is left over for the mainstream, only the high end shops have anybody with passion and know how working. The majority of people clearly are happy with the service and sales the B and M market supplies or they would not be here plain and simple. Cliff notes, no demand, no supply.

The myopic world of DIY mobile audio is not representative of the consumer demographic as a whole, in fact, it is quite possibly the worst possible representation of the consumer demographic as the number of people like 'us' is as statistically insignificant as it EVER was.

But yet, people are still buying decks, fours, and subs and keeping the brick and mortars open, just like it ALWAYS was, anybody with REAL experience in the industry KNOWS DAMNED WELL that custom installs and big dollar systems don't drive the industry, and never did, its the deck and fours with a sub that drove the industry then, now and will be in the future.

Have any of you looked at a magazine rack lately. We've lost a lot of car audio mags over the past year to be sure, but I believe it isn't because of the decline (which imo can be traced back mostly to the financial crash) it is because the car audio scene has been unified or perhaps annexed, or maybe consumed by the car scene in general. It's not so much you have a big system and huge install, it is you have it, but you also have everything else. Car audio has become less of a niche and more of a general expectation of the overall car scene.

What I have seen through the (d)evolution of car audio is gigantic leaps in the quality of the custom workmanship. There might be less guys out there doing the custom stuff, but it is constantly getting better and better. DBs keep creeping up, it's actually impressive on so many levels.

It is obvious that the b and m shops in business today have adapted, otherwise they would not exist. They have adapted into a model that alllows them to profit at the cost of general quality. It might be sad, but it is what society demands. That coupled with the lack of talent generally speaking and it is small wonder you hear stories about ****ty work... but know, that if you had been in the industry and actually knew what was going on, you would see that in that regard, nothing has changed. The good shops are still the good shops, and the bad ones are still the bad.


> Any shop owner here that is worth a damn knows exactly how many crap ass shops there are in the world.


Wow ant, that's some pretty badass hyperbole. Just for ****s and giggles, what is the exact number?


----------



## Rudeboy

Seattle Esotar said:


> I lost a customer couple years back due to the internet. Quoted the guy 10k for a custom system in his 997 TT. Product included a Pioneer AVIC Z110, Tru Technology amp/line driver, Dynaudio speakers, fiberglass sub enclosure for 2-10's. I was being waaay too generous. Not sure why I quoted so cheap. I get a email back from the guy saying to either lower the price or cancel the system. Why? He googled the AVIC and came up with $999 at the top listing on Google. The unit "retailed", full MSRP for $2,200. Pioneer MAP was $2,000. I quoted him$1,700 on the unit. My profit was not much but I'm making $ on the install. He said, "If I can buy online for $700 less than your price, I'm sure you're making lots more than that and probably those same margins on the rest of the gear".


That's the point I was trying to make. It's not possible to subsidize labor with product markup anymore. Pisses people off when they see the "true" price of the product. The practice may have made sense at one time (don't know how - may have to do with keeping employee wages low), but it also created the expectation of an artificially low labor rate that is a problem now.


----------



## Fricasseekid

Ok this might be a dumb question but:
Why not sell the product for less profit and charge mire fir high profile installs? People who are gonna pay for an install are gonna pay anyhow and any money lost might be recouped by the business you pick from DIY guys looking for a deal on gear.


----------



## Fricasseekid

Also, some of you seem to be hung up on this "educate the customer" thing. I don't know where that came from. I guess it's cause I mentioned shops being a hub for knowledge. But that's what I meant. I don't think it's any shops responsibility to educate the customer beyond unique features of the product they are selling. But a salesman should be able to answer all of a customers questions. I should be able to walk into any shop and say "I'm looking for a mid that has good off axis response up 3khz" and that salesman shows me what my options are. But yet again my experience with shops lately is that if you do that the clerk looks at you like you ordered filet mignon at mcdonalds.


----------



## Rudeboy

Fricasseekid said:


> Ok this might be a dumb question but:
> Why not sell the product for less profit and charge mire fir high profile installs? People who are gonna pay for an install are gonna pay anyhow and any money lost might be recouped by the business you pick from DIY guys looking for a deal on gear.


That's socialism.


----------



## Fricasseekid

Rudeboy said:


> That's socialism.


No, no, I meant charge more for labor and do high profile, high quality work. For everybody!


----------



## bigaudiofanatic

Yes they are sadly dying.

Whatever Happened To The Audiophile? : NPR


----------



## AAAAAAA

DMAN, seriously, you have the best stories. Keep it going.


----------



## dman

AAAAAAA said:


> DMAN, seriously, you have the best stories. Keep it going.


I am one of the fortunate (or unfortunate) guys in the industry or being a business owner over many years that has seen first hand the ups or down, or just plain hard lessons learned... I like to say ive been rich (well making money) and poor so many times its not funny...And i have definately learned NOT every decision is the best decision, but i do try to learn from it.. Ive seen it all i think, even down to being broke into at the shop and the thief coming in a few months later to have the stuff installed.. Wow, thats stupidity!!


----------



## BoostedNihilist

what is a fair rate for install labour?


----------



## Angrywhopper

Fricasseekid said:


> Ok this might be a dumb question but:
> Why not sell the product for less profit and charge mire fir high profile installs? People who are gonna pay for an install are gonna pay anyhow and any money lost might be recouped by the business you pick from DIY guys looking for a deal on gear.


Not that simple. There's only so much a car audio shop can charge per hour. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BoostedNihilist

Fricasseekid said:


> Ok this might be a dumb question but:
> Why not sell the product for less profit and charge mire fir high profile installs? People who are gonna pay for an install are gonna pay anyhow and any money lost might be recouped by the business you pick from DIY guys looking for a deal on gear.



why as a business owner would I subsidize my installation competition?


----------



## bassfromspace

dman said:


> im sure you know every single shop as well? if you dont like any shops then you have reasons behind them, ie: quality of install, products, they dont bend to your likings, you can do all your own installs therefore you need no one, i mean you have a reason i assume, lol.. possibility of mutual acceptance as well.. and you DID highlight a quote "*I have never seen so many shops just in the DALLAS area alone open and close within a year"*.. What exactly does that quote have to do with taking your car somewhere in DFW.. NO shops were mentioned other than a statement of so many opening and closing.. There are some good installation shops in the DFW area, some may be pricey, but do put out quality work, they may not be a fan of yours but again everyone has a choice...


Didn't think I'd need to explicitly spell it out, but many local shops don't put out quality work, yet charge quality prices. I'm speaking from the perspective of both a consumer and as someone who has worked car audio in this market.

The highlighted quote has everything to do with my statement. We live in the 4th largest metropolitan area in the nation, and as you pointed out, shops can't make it past a year. There's obviously a significant car base here, as companies like RUF and Lambourghini explicitly cited this reason as to why they set up shop here. One can reasonably assume that something else is at play besides cheap-ass DIY'ers who won't spend money.

The fact that I'm active in the car audio community, and can't name you any of these "quality shops", speaks volumes about how these shops conduct business. It's called marketing. It would be free for one of these shops to sign up on DIYMA and participate and build clientele, but many B&M's would rather spend time bitching and moaning. Multi-national corporations spend serious coin to get this kind of access to customer opinion, yet we should spend money with our local B&M for the "love" of the hobby. Right.

Speaking of customer service, I'm still waiting on you to get me a quote on an ms8 and I asked for a price a month ago.


----------



## Porsche

Angrywhopper said:


> Not that simple. There's only so much a car audio shop can charge per hour.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I disagree about "so much a car audio shop can charge per hour". this depends on how you sell your company and its technicians abilities.

I am in the home integration buisness, I have clients ask why we charge what we charge compared to competitors (most guys have a flat rate, $80hr or $150hr for 2), not all techs are equal is what i tell them. some work faster, some work smarter, some have better attention to detail, etc etc etc

I have techs I charge $80hr for, but I also have techs at $95hr, $110hr, $135hr & $155hr


----------



## Porsche

BoostedNihilist said:


> what is a fair rate for install labour?


No such thing as fair, it depends on the task and the tech chosen to do the install


----------



## BoostedNihilist

Porsche said:


> No such thing as fair, it depends on the task and the tech chosen to do the install


Home installation is nowhere near the same ballgame as running a shop. What are your fixed operating costs to send a tech out to a house to do an install.. you need what a bag of tools and some stock of wire? Needless to say, nowhere near the same infrastructure needed to complete the most basic of car audio installations. If you want to push the installation envelope even slightly in car audio you need an entirely different set up. How many shops do you need to do a HOME installation? to do an effective car audio setup, you essentially need three, wood, install, and finish, and you need to stock each of those shops with entirely different tooling. It really is a massive investment setting up a proper installation shop, and that isn't even considering the retail space and stock you need. You can't order kits one at a time (well you can but it's really expensive) you gotta stock that ****, it is an educated gamble at best, some kits you buy and they sit there for years. that is just one example, generally about 15 -20% of the **** you need to buy to be ready to roll on any vehicle will sit around and get blown out slightly above cost when it's time to buy the new model lineups.

The fair rate is the minimum the company can charge covering all of its fixed cost and make a profit. In order to do that you generally need a MINIMUM of 60% markup on everything AND a healthy labor rate to even keep the lights on, let alone sit on a stock of diverse inventory you might be paying interest on for years before you sell it, or simply write it off as obsolete.

Finally, there *IS* only so much a car audio shop can charge per hour, and that is what the customer is willing to pay. The majority of the car audio market is not high end installations, a point that is seemingly lost on pretty much everybody here. You can NOT get away with charging 80 bucks an hour to install decks and speakers and simple sub setups, the market simply will not carry that kind of rate.

It is very easy to see why many car audio stores go tu after a year. It takes a massive amount of money to start a decent shop and stock it with gear. While that gear sits there, you are paying interest on it. At the same time, you are trying to build your customer base and EVERYBODY (who is actually int he industry) knows the MASSIVE negative campaigns undertaken by the competition to keep a foot hold of their precious market share... being somewhat of a niche market the customers are VERY easy to manipulate. 

Here is a story from my past. It is basically when I decided enthusiast customers were the kiss of death. 

fresh out of mobile dynamics I was head installer at a local b and m. When you don't have years of experience to draw upon a proper job puts you behind the profit curve nearly every time (it takes a couple years to be able to do anything anytime) I had an enthusiast customer, I thought he was a good guy, he would hang out and 'learn' things... Anyways one day while working on his car he decided I needed his help and took the drill and secured his sub box to his trunk floor. He didn't learn the most important lesson, look before you drill. Anyways, a week later, the car is back in the shop, he is complaining about the smell of gas... of course, he has drilled his sub box into his gas tank... 

Wouldn't you know, all of a sudden it was me who secured the sub box to the floor. I took the hit because the shop was my responsibility and it never happened again. Fast forward TEN ****ING YEARS and I am doing my own thing, and what kind of ground rumblings do I hear.. how stupid *I* am for personally drilling through this guys tank. **** me, this is TEN YEARS LATER and the competition was STILL using this error of 'mine' to steer people away from my store. I laugh, because that is the worst they had, somebody elses stupid mistake that they could attribute to me. Wasn't even MY bad day, I was just responsible because I chose to be.

At any rate it had zero impact on my business, I ended up stealing all of their high end lines from the distributors and I was (as was always) the go to guy for any type of system you could want. Their desperation and fear of competition drove them to use false information which in the end illuminated their own ineptitude.

It's a tough, cutthroat business, very difficult to maintain a foothold in let alone create a new foothold.

In the end, I heard a story of the competition who was responsible for the 'slander' with regards to a remote start they installed in a brand new dodge. The installer had the remote in his pocket and he sat on it... being that the dodge was a manual and the safties were not installed, somehow the truck managed to start itself and collapse the rear wall of their install shed causing the shop to fall onto the truck. I've never so much as accidentally blown a fuse doing an install and these clowns brought their shop down on top of a truck doing a stupid human trick.

So, as I hear all these negative stories about the b and m's having been there done that I either a. completely disregard anything negative I hear as it is probably skewed or flat out not true, or b. consider the source and revisit a.

If you haven't actually been in the trenches towing the line in the car audio business, you are really in a very poor position to comment on how it works. Using comparisons to other businesses fails pretty much every time due to the apples and oranges bias.


----------



## Porsche

BoostedNihilist said:


> Home installation is nowhere near the same ballgame as running a shop. What are your fixed operating costs to send a tech out to a house to do an install.. you need what a bag of tools and some stock of wire? Needless to say, nowhere near the same infrastructure needed to complete the most basic of car audio installations. If you want to push the installation envelope even slightly in car audio you need an entirely different set up. How many shops do you need to do a HOME installation? to do an effective car audio setup, you essentially need three, wood, install, and finish, and you need to stock each of those shops with entirely different tooling. It really is a massive investment setting up a proper installation shop, and that isn't even considering the retail space and stock you need. You can't order kits one at a time (well you can but it's really expensive) you gotta stock that ****, it is an educated gamble at best, some kits you buy and they sit there for years. that is just one example, generally about 15 -20% of the **** you need to buy to be ready to roll on any vehicle will sit around and get blown out slightly above cost when it's time to buy the new model lineups.
> 
> The fair rate is the minimum the company can charge covering all of its fixed cost and make a profit. In order to do that you generally need a MINIMUM of 60% markup on everything AND a healthy labor rate to even keep the lights on, let alone sit on a stock of diverse inventory you might be paying interest on for years before you sell it, or simply write it off as obsolete.
> 
> .


it takes quite abit more than a bag of tools and some wire to do home installations.


----------



## ANT

BoostedNihilist said:


> It's not my job or responsibility to educate anybody other than myself.


Seems kind of stand off-ish. Like you have already drawn your line in the sand and are bitterly refusing to consider the alternative..and so of people unwilling to grow and adapt to an ever changing industry 



> It is funny that you would call those who wish to keep trade secrets trade secrets.. what is your recipe down to the milligram used to create secondskin... yeah, didn't think so.


Comparing a proprietary formula to an industry standard technique, are nothing even close. Keeping a product formula "secret" after paying thousands of dollars to have it developed is much different than refusing to tell someone online how best to stretch vinyl over an enclosure.

I once rememer reading a thread where a dealer/retainler/installer posted instructions on how to crimp a zero guage cable, and a few other dealer went apeshit over it, claiming that they would lose business becuase of it.
Rediculous



> Wow ant, that's some pretty badass hyperbole. Just for ****s and giggles, what is the exact number?


21,374 and growing.
Wanna know how many experts there are?



ANT


----------



## BuickGN

HT can be more difficult, involving more tools and products than car audio at least in my experience.


----------



## Porsche

BuickGN said:


> HT can be more difficult, involving more tools and products than car audio at least in my experience.


apples and oranges, home integration is much much more involved and technical than car integration


----------



## Fricasseekid

Ant,
What are the top 5 changes you think a B&M shop would have to make in the way they do business to not only stay afloat but thrive in today's market and maybe even regain some business from the online/DIY crowd?


----------



## BoostedNihilist

Porsche said:


> apples and oranges, home integration is much much more involved and technical than car integration


you are exposing your own ignorance

neither are very technical, very much monkey see monkey do


----------



## Fricasseekid

BoostedNihilist said:


> you are exposing your own ignorance
> 
> neither are very technical, very much monkey see monkey do


Actually, both can be as technical as you want them to be, I'd imagine.


----------



## Porsche

BoostedNihilist said:


> you are exposing your own ignorance
> 
> neither are very technical, very much monkey see monkey do


i hate to tell you but home integration is far from monkey see monkey do, maybe in your amatuer world, but not in ours. i am not talking about best buy installations, obviously you are. you are not very bright my friend


----------



## BoostedNihilist

DIYMA said:


> Seems kind of stand off-ish. Like you have already drawn your line in the sand and are bitterly refusing to consider the alternative..and so of people unwilling to grow and adapt to an ever changing industry
> 
> 
> 
> Comparing a proprietary formula to an industry standard technique, are nothing even close. Keeping a product formula "secret" after paying thousands of dollars to have it developed is much different than refusing to tell someone online how best to stretch vinyl over an enclosure.
> 
> I once rememer reading a thread where a dealer/retainler/installer posted instructions on how to crimp a zero guage cable, and a few other dealer went apeshit over it, claiming that they would lose business becuase of it.
> Rediculous
> 
> 
> 
> 21,374 and growing.
> Wanna know how many experts there are?
> 
> 
> 
> ANT


What industry standard technique? there is no such thing. The industries, which have 'standard techniques' have books with these standard techniques in them... care to point me to the publication which references standard techniques for car audio.. don't waste your time, there aren't any. The skills installers acquire (at least when I come from) were developed by the individual installers. Goes back to your point about no standard training, no standardized training, no standardized technique, therefore those techniques become just like a formula for damper. 

There might be fifty ways to accomplish any given task in an installation, there might even be fifty right ways to do it, where the installer increases his value is how he developes his ability to derive those methods with no outside influence, using his skill. The industry has brilliant resources now that cut down on the learning curve but the guys who can solve problems are and always will be the best. Anybody can google or forum up how to do something but you know... teach a man how to learn to fish you know...

How much time do you think it takes to develop your installation technique, it takes a good amount of time to come up with the perfect installation formula, I would venture to state that it is MORE difficult to come up with the installation formulas than it is to create a new damper forumla. Who pays for this? Well, when I was learning it came at a cost of lost profits due to the extra time it takes to learn and implement the correct techniques to do a professional job. The comparsion is perhaps more apt than you realize.

and no, there is not much of a difference, insofar as if you don't know how to do it you have to figure it out for yourself. If everybody knew how to make secondskin how much of a market would there be for it? the same size market which would exist if everybody knew how to stretch vinyl over an enclosure (which btw, I believe I actually wrote in a thread about vinyl stretching and how to do it) which is not, no market.

Lol, I think I remember that thread... the common diy answer was to put the crimp on the ground and whack it with a hammer... lol and seriously, if you need help operating a simple crimping tool, you should be nowhere near a shop period.

I have not drawn a line in the sand at all. I just see a lot of people here commenting on things they don't have any idea about. My position is based on fact, simple as that. It is not a line in the sand, these facts contradict the common logic of many of the thread posters. They are the ones who have drawn the line in the sand, I am telling it how it is, how it actually is, not as it is as perceived by a bunch of 'enthusiasts' with a limited view of how the industry actually works. 

If I seem standoffish, it is because I have my story and I am sticking to it.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

Porsche said:


> i hate to tell you but home integration is far from monkey see monkey do, maybe in your amatuer world, but not in ours. i am not talking about best buy installations, obviously you are. you are not very bright my friend


lol, dude you have literally no idea where I am at technically. But  my professional license puts me way above any 'home integration technician' 

Maybe for you, it is complex and far from monkey see monkey do... could be a perspective gap


----------



## BoostedNihilist

Porsche said:


> it takes quite abit more than a bag of tools and some wire to do home installations.


oh yeah, forgot the white van...


----------



## Porsche

BoostedNihilist said:


> lol, dude you have literally no idea where I am at technically. But  my professional license puts me way above any 'home integration technician'
> 
> Maybe for you, it is complex and far from monkey see monkey do... could be a perspective gap


an "dude", you clearly do not know anything about me. since you are a self proclaimed genius, what are your credentials. have you worked in the home integration business, engineering, etc

since you have an answer for everything, what home automation experience do you have, what products do you have experience with, etc

would really like to know


----------



## BoostedNihilist

Porsche said:


> an "dude", you clearly do not know anything about me. since you are a self proclaimed genius, what are your credentials. have you worked in the home integration business, engineering, etc
> 
> since you have an answer for everything, what home automation experience do you have, what products do you have experience with, etc
> 
> would really like to know


What is your experience with car audio? that's what this is about right?

I would really like to know  

And i have never proclaimed I was a genious, just that I am more technically advanced (by license) than you could ever be as a integration guy. It's not a slight, it's just the truth.

is there even a 'credential' out there for home integration?


----------



## Fricasseekid

BoostedNihilist said:


> What is your experience with car audio? that's what this is about right?
> 
> I would really like to know
> 
> And i have never proclaimed I was a genious, just that I am more technically advanced (by license) than you could ever be as a integration guy. It's not a slight, it's just the truth.


Answer the questions dude!


----------



## Porsche

^whats your background than, you keep tooting your own horn, lets hear it


----------



## Porsche

BoostedNihilist said:


> What is your experience with car audio? that's what this is about right?
> 
> I would really like to know
> 
> And i have never proclaimed I was a *genious*, just that I am more technically advanced (by license) than you could ever be as a integration guy. It's not a slight, it's just the truth.
> 
> is there even a 'credential' out there for home integration?


i rest my case


----------



## BoostedNihilist

Just got my license so I can say this with pride

I am an e licensed engineer, I work on aircraft systems that make your home audio integration look like a radioshack breadboard.

Before that, did a decade plus as an installer.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

Porsche said:


> i rest my case


Oh, so you have no credentials  good thing you rested your case.

I always know when I've won.. the finish line arrives when it becomes not about the argument, but about a spelling error... for the record, I have noticed five in your posts prior to your bolding that I left alone  I know how genius is spelled, sometimes my fingers move faster than my brain,


----------



## schmiddr2

BoostedNihilist said:


> My position is based on fact...


That is a line in the sand if I've ever seen one. Furthermore you use your perception as the definitive view point, when clearly you are doing it to force public credibility of your speaking points. Which is fair, but to continue asserting _your facts_ as being more correct than others regardless of their position shows your true position as defensive and stale, not fair. If you want to always be right and not have an open civil discussion then write a book.


----------



## Porsche

BoostedNihilist said:


> Just got my license so I can say this with pride
> 
> I am an e licensed engineer, I work on aircraft systems that make your home audio integration look like a radioshack breadboard.
> 
> Before that, did a decade plus as an installer.


if you just got your license how much experience do you have, whats your job duties? whats a "e license engineer"?


----------



## Fricasseekid

BoostedNihilist said:


> Just got my license so I can say this with pride
> 
> I am an e licensed engineer, I work on aircraft systems that make your home audio integration look like a radioshack breadboard.
> 
> Before that, did a decade plus as an installer.


I'm a AC mechanic by trade and my helper is an avionics engineer for the national guard and he is a grade A idiot. The other day he changed the starter on his car and his headlights quit working. Lol

You haven't convinced me yet.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

Porsche said:


> ^whats your background *than*, you keep tooting your own horn, lets hear it


If = Then
More = Than

looks like we are both genious'


----------



## Fricasseekid

schmiddr2 said:


> That is a line in the sand if I've ever seen one. Furthermore you use your perception as the definitive view point, when clearly you are doing it to force public credibility of your speaking points. Which is fair, but to continue asserting _your facts_ as being more correct than others regardless of their position shows your true position as defensive and stale, not fair. If you want to always be right and not have an open civil discussion then write a book.


Every post Boostednihilist makes is an "argument from authority" which is one of the top ten logical fallacies. Look it up!


----------



## BoostedNihilist

Fricasseekid said:


> I'm a AC mechanic by trade and my helper is an avionics engineer for the national guard and he is a grade A idiot. The other day he changed the starter on his car and his headlights quit working. Lol
> 
> You haven't convinced me yet.


Are you and A and P or an I A?

And that is fine, I also have an m license.

The american licenses don't carry anywhere near the credibility of a canadian license, so your perspective is questionable


----------



## Porsche

BoostedNihilist said:


> Oh, so you have no credentials  good thing you rested your case.
> 
> I always know when I've won.. the finish line arrives when it becomes not about the argument, but about a spelling error... for the record, I have noticed five in your posts prior to your bolding that I left alone  I know how genius is spelled, sometimes my fingers move faster than my brain,


what have you won, you have spatted off at the mouth like a spoiled 12 year old trying to prove your point, you keep claiming facts, you havent proven anything other than you are probably a mid 20 year old with penis envy that feels like you have to try to show your intelligence.

later sport


----------



## BoostedNihilist

Fricasseekid said:


> Every post Boostednihilist makes is an "argument from authority" which is one of the top ten logical fallacies. Look it up!


What you did right there, is an argument from authority  having fun yet?


----------



## Fricasseekid

BoostedNihilist said:


> Are you and A and P or an I A?
> 
> And that is fine, I also have an m license.
> 
> The american licenses don't carry anywhere near the credibility of a canadian license, so your perspective is questionable


I'm an installer, I don't have a service liscence. So I have no idea what your talking about.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

Porsche said:


> what have you won, you have spatted off at the mouth like a spoiled 12 year old trying to prove your point, you keep claiming facts, you havent proven anything other than you are probably a mid 20 year old with penis envy that feels like you have to try to show your intelligence.
> 
> later sport


I havent won much, there wasnt much competition.

You have yet to refute a single fact. You haven't stated your credentials, you haven't put your experience out there. I have. I'm not trying to show my intelligence, I am putting my hard earned perspective from years in the trenches out there 

I have won by virtue of your inability to keep the plot. You wanted to make it about me, and when you couldn't compete you quit... you lost the argument, and you lost the dick measuring contest. At least I can be referred to as sport, you barely qualify as a game.


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## Fricasseekid

BoostedNihilist said:


> What you did right there, is an argument from authority  having fun yet?


What claim did I make that adds weight to my statements without the use of reasoning? Do you know what an argument from authority is?

Argument from authority:
The basic structure of such arguments is as follows: Professor X believes A, Professor X speaks from authority, therefore A is true. Often this argument is implied by emphasizing the many years of experience, or the formal degrees held by the individual making a specific claim. The converse of this argument is sometimes used, that someone does not possess authority, and therefore their claims must be false.


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## BoostedNihilist

Fricasseekid said:


> I'm an installer, I don't have a service liscence. So I have no idea what your talking about.


so.. you are not an ac mechanic by trade? you need to have a license to claim that you know.


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## Fricasseekid

BoostedNihilist said:


> so.. you are not an ac mechanic by trade? you need to have a license to claim that you know.


Nope! No liscence required to install AC, only to obtain and transport freon which I never do.


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## BoostedNihilist

Fricasseekid said:


> What claim did I make that adds weight to my statements without the use of reasoning? Do you know what an argument from authority is?
> 
> Argument from authority:
> The basic structure of such arguments is as follows: Professor X believes A, Professor X speaks from authority, therefore A is true. Often this argument is implied by emphasizing the many years of experience, or the formal degrees held by the individual making a specific claim. The converse of this argument is sometimes used, that someone does not possess authority, and therefore their claims must be false.


You didn't use reasoning. Therefore the authority is inferred. Still having fun?


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## Fricasseekid

BoostedNihilist said:


> You didn't use reasoning. Therefore the authority is inferred. Still having fun?


What reasoning is needed when I'm simply calling you out by definition?


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## BoostedNihilist

schmiddr2 said:


> That is a line in the sand if I've ever seen one. Furthermore you use your perception as the definitive view point, when clearly you are doing it to force public credibility of your speaking points. Which is fair, but to continue asserting _your facts_ as being more correct than others regardless of their position shows your true position as defensive and stale, not fair. If you want to always be right and not have an open civil discussion then write a book.


my facts are more correct than others as others are using observations with limited relevant perspective negating their conclusions as facts.


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## Porsche

BoostedNihilist said:


> my facts are more correct than others as others are using observations with limited relevant perspective negating their conclusions as facts.


LOL, i bet you are still a virgin


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## BoostedNihilist

Fricasseekid said:


> What reasoning is needed when I'm simply calling you out by definition?


If you didn't use reasoning then your criticism of a logical fallacy has no foundation in logic  

furthermore, you have to actually be incorrect to be guilty of the logical fallacy you claim I am employing. Since you have not used reason, and are incorrect in your position generally speaking, I am not actually using an argument from authority  I am simply correct.


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## Porsche

BoostedNihilist said:


> If you didn't use reasoning then your criticism of a logical fallacy has no foundation in logic
> 
> furthermore, you have to actually be incorrect to be guilty of the logical fallacy you claim I am employing. Since you have not used reason, and are incorrect in your position generally speaking, I am not actually using an argument from authority  I am simply correct.


OK Sheldon, we got it


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## BoostedNihilist

Porsche said:


> LOL, i bet you are still a virgin


Wow, that's awesome. I'm a virgin 

What's next, are we gonna call each other gay and fistfight? 

Grow up.


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## schmiddr2

Some pretty good info in this thread, but it no longer serves it's purpose. Thanks for all the input everyone.


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