# Amplifiers Ranking CONSENSUS!



## Yoursogansta (Apr 6, 2009)

The following is the list of 6 amplifier categories. Edit the list by adding more amplifiers… 

*Audiophile Amps:*

Brax Graphic series
McIntosh
Zapco C2K
Audison vrx
Genesis Series 3
Aura MR/RPM
TRU

*Audio Enthusiast Amps:*

DLS Ultimate
Arc audio SE and XXK/CXLR
Audison lrx
Zapco Reference
Diamond D7
Alpine MRV Expert series
Memphis MClass
Helix Esprit series
MB Quart Q series
Phoenix Gold older MS series
TREO ssx 

*Good Quality Amps:*

Zed Audio
Zuki
JBL Crown series
JL Audio Slash / Slash v2
Phoenix Gold Xenon
Phoenix Gold Ti series
Crossfire VR
Memphis Reference 
Alphasonik/US Acoustics (1994-2000)
Eclipse XA Series
JBL Power Series
Newer Kenwood Excelon
Sundown
TREO ssx 
US Acoustics usx

*Average Amps:
*
Alpine MRP
Infinity Refernce 
JBL CS series
Alpine V12 MRV ("hissed like a ****ing snake" post #82)
Alpine PDX (Quality amps but many notice excessive idle hiss :worried
Clarion APX
Sony Xploid

*Value Amps:*

Kicker
Hifonics
MA audio
Coustic


*Poor Mofo Amps:*

DLS reference series (post # 8)
Audiobahn
Legacy
Profile
Pyle


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

Yoursogansta said:


> The following is the list of 6 amplifier categories. Edit the list by adding more amplifiers…
> 
> *I like buying a good amp and paying then paying double for fancy bling*
> 
> ...


I fixed your list for you!


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## dvsadvocate (Mar 17, 2008)

Whats your criteria for this list?


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## Yoursogansta (Apr 6, 2009)

just want to see personal opinions...


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

My take,

My award for amplifier design of the year (or the moment) is:
Alpine's PDX series amps 

PDX series rocks. Perfectly engineered. Compact, installs anywhere, excellent SQ and linearity, strong power output that exceeds it's rated specs, and sturdy build quality with a nice warranty to back it up. Now, while these amps aren't the cheapest priced amps, I guarantee if you buy them, you get what you pay for. 

Also, I want to take a moment to give kudos to Alpine. Alpine is probably the only mass market electronics company who seems to really give a crap about delivering high quality sound from their headunits to their higher-end speakers and digital signal processors. Really, Alpine should get the Car Audio Electronics of the Year Award. Kudos to that company for really trying to deliver the best quality and at reasonable prices considering you're getting high-end quality. Alpine is obviously committed to the car audio enthusiast like no other large mass-market company and I hope the hobbyists here appreciate that.

I would give 2nd place to Kenwood for the new Excelon amps. Compact (but not as compact as Alpine's PDX amps), great SQ, solid build quality, nice xtra's and very reasonable pricing. If you can't afford the Alpine PDX series amps, you should be buying these.

For the "Best of the Budget Amp Award", I haven't decided yet, but Cadence has pretty much held this catagory for some years now in my opinion.

There are some good quality amps to be had from many others, but they are very similar in size, SQ & build quality. The amps I mentioned are more unique and fit more install designs.


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

My take :
Value for money amp :
JL Audio E,A,G series.

Good quality amp :
JL Audio Slash series

Over marketing gimmick amp :
Zapco amps that using symbilink cables


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## MaXaZoR (Apr 1, 2007)

Where does DLS fit on that list? Also add A/D/S to the value amps


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

You just remind me on this.
Poor mofo amps :
DLS Reference series


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

I think Arc amps fit somewhere into the upper echelon there.

Their SE and XXK/CXLR amps are top notch.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

*If you have not personally used the amps, you should not rank them IMO*


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## bamaster (Nov 18, 2008)

No Sundown? Maybe under Good Quality? Dunno...


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## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

I'm sure people will argue with this but audison's lrx series are pricey but will run with amps 2x the price. Although relatively expensive I think you get all your money's worth.


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## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

Amps I have used with the same set of components: alpine pdx, JL slash, audison vrx, audison lrx, zapco c2k, zapco reference.

My rankings: 
1) Zapco c2k
2) audison vrx
3) audison lrx
4) zapco reference
5) JL slash
6) alpine pdx


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I'm wondering why Audison was left off the OP's list?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

azngotskills said:


> *If you have not personally used the amps, you should not rank them IMO*


read my mind. only replying to this thread to x2 you on this.


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

2nd generations Alpine MRV Expert series (1999-2001) should be in the Enthusiast Level, based on your categories.

Alphasonik/US Acoustics, Lanzar Opti-Drives, hell all the 1994/5 through 2000 ish Zed product are at least upper Good Quality pushing into enthusiast level.

I am a strong supporter of performance over looks or marketing. I disagree with the Anti-Zapco/Audison/DLS etc, haters: just cuz you can't play Pro-Ball doesn't mean you hate the game.. 

Just my .02
Rob

(ps: I only listed amps I have used in my own vehicles, not even product I have installed for customers.)


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## falkenbd (Aug 16, 2008)

I'd add DLS Ultimate to one of the top 2. I tried 2 different DLS ultimate amps, and liked them... If they weren't so expensive I'd have 3...


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

azngotskills said:


> *If you have not personally used the amps, you should not rank them IMO*


I have used the Alpine PDX, JL Audio Slash v2 and the the Audison LRx Class A/B.


The PDX is at the bottom of my list.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

michaelsil1 said:


> I have used the Alpine PDX, JL Audio Slash v2 and the the Audison LRx Class A/B.
> 
> 
> The PDX is at the bottom of my list.


Yea kinda referring to the OP, since I agree that the PDX is the bottom of my list as well LOL


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

DO WE REALLY NEED ANOTHER FREAKIN BEST AMPS LIST THREAD????!!!! FOR ****S SAKE.....

and if you haven't USED the ****ing amps keep your ****ing mouth shut...PDX's are not the ****ing **** of an amp...JBL's should not be below a PDX ever on quality of the sound that comes out of the amp...and seriously...do we need another one of these damn threads....tasers set to kill today....


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## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

PDX amps have their place and it is not in the high end sq world. The high noise floor on mine was not consistent with other SQ amps I've owned. People are in love with the the PDX and rightfully so because of their size, ease of installation, and power. All in all they're a great amp but should not be compared alongside some of the sq amps previously mentioned in this thread.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

This thread is gay


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

BeatsDownLow said:


> This thread is gay


LMAO....i agree hahaha


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

minibox said:


> PDX amps have their place and it is not in the high end sq world. The high noise floor on mine was not consistent with other SQ amps I've owned. People are in love with the the PDX and rightfully so because of their size, ease of installation, and power. All in all they're a great amp but should not be compared alongside some of the sq amps previously mentioned in this thread.


If you can hear a difference between the fine PDX and the "other SQ amps" in a blind test, then contact Richard Clarke and you could win $10,000. I'm sure you can do it. Don't let me down man.


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## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

guitarsail said:


> DO WE REALLY NEED ANOTHER FREAKIN BEST AMPS LIST THREAD????!!!! FOR ****S SAKE.....
> 
> and if you haven't USED the ****ing amps keep your ****ing mouth shut...PDX's are not the ****ing **** of an amp...JBL's should not be below a PDX ever on quality of the sound that comes out of the amp...and seriously...do we need another one of these damn threads....tasers set to kill today....


True, there are already a lot of these threads on diyma but I guess we need another one because apparently people love talking about this. Can a taser be set to kill? I wish I had that switch on mine.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

My ranking based on what I have used in my own vehicles over the years.

1. Zapco 
2. Audison LRx
3. Aura MR/RPM (Best bang for the buck, clean and make good power)IMO-O/S Autotek, O/S PPI, Audison SRx
4. JL-Furi-O/S Crunch, PG M series. 
5. Arc
6. O/S MEI-Not sure if anyone remember's these but I liked them.
7. Alpine


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## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

tspence73 said:


> If you can hear a difference between the fine PDX and the "other SQ amps" in a blind test, then contact Richard Clarke and you could win $10,000. I'm sure you can do it. Don't let me down man.


sure, you set it up. I'll be there. And I won't spend the winnings on PDX's.


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## dkm201 (Nov 29, 2007)

Worst thread of the year ranking CONSENSUS!

1. This one.
2. Every other SQ amplifier thread (tie).


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

/\/\/\ this guys response FTw


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## mokedaddy (Feb 26, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> If you can hear a difference between the fine PDX and the "other SQ amps" in a blind test, then contact Richard Clarke and you could win $10,000. I'm sure you can do it. Don't let me down man.


Without processing you can definitely hear a difference in pdx amps....


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> If you can hear a difference between the fine PDX and the "other SQ amps" in a blind test, then contact Richard Clarke and you could win $10,000. I'm sure you can do it. Don't let me down man.


Shut the **** up man, we have discussed the flaws in his test a thousand times, its ********


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## falkenbd (Aug 16, 2008)

:lurk:

:dead_horse:


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> My take,
> 
> My award for amplifier design of the year (or the moment) is:
> Alpine's PDX series amps


I was really thinking of getting a PDX-5. Don't think I will anymore.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> My take,
> 
> My award for amplifier design of the year (or the moment) is:
> Alpine's PDX series amps
> ...





dawgdan said:


> I was really thinking of getting a PDX-5. Don't think I will anymore.


Someone likes them.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

minibox said:


> PDX amps have their place and it is not in the high end sq world. The high noise floor on mine was not consistent with other SQ amps I've owned.


My exact same thoughts. My only complaint with the PDX was it's low SNR. I just couldn't get past the noise floor. Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.


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## falkenbd (Aug 16, 2008)

dawgdan said:


> I was really thinking of getting a PDX-5. Don't think I will anymore.


So the tspence recommendation makes everyone stear clear?

WORD! If he ever buys any of the equipment I own, I'm listing it on ebay asap...


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## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

falkenbd said:


> :lurk:
> 
> :dead_horse:


lol, can we please continue this thread just for the entertainment value?


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## VaVroom1 (Dec 2, 2005)

my first criteria of a good amp is very objective: no turn on/off pop, no hiss, under rated, doesn't thermal and reliable.
after that comes the subjectives: install friendliness and sound.

having heard a few audison vrx with pops and hiss, i say its gay. dls ultimate is in this same category.
also saw a few audison lrx thermalled.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Yoursogansta said:


> *Audiophile Amps:*
> 
> Brax Graphic series
> McIntosh
> ...


Any amp that makes rated power over a continuous load, has noise below the level of human hearing, is built to last, has a more than adequate PS for it's duty and has pink and purple polka dot colored TO3's.


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## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

VaVroom1 said:


> my first criteria of a good amp is very objective: no turn on/off pop, no hiss, under rated, doesn't thermal and reliable.
> after that comes the subjectives: install friendliness and sound.
> 
> having heard a few audison vrx with pops and hiss, i say its gay. dls ultimate is in this same category.
> also saw a few audison lrx thermalled.


Mine never hissed or popped. If it lisped it would be gay.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

guitarsail said:


> DO WE REALLY NEED ANOTHER FREAKIN BEST AMPS LIST THREAD????!!!! FOR ****S SAKE.....
> 
> and if you haven't USED the ****ing amps keep your ****ing mouth shut...PDX's are not the ****ing **** of an amp...JBL's should not be below a PDX ever on quality of the sound that comes out of the amp...and seriously...do we need another one of these damn threads....tasers set to kill today....


Stop. Take long, deep breath and slooooly back away from the keyboard....


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)




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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> My take,
> 
> My award for amplifier design of the year (or the moment) is:
> Alpine's PDX series amps
> ...



OK Spence... you've been stroking the PDX's hard for the last week. My only question...

IF THEY ARE SO FREAKIN AWESOME WHY AREN'T YOU RUNNING THEM!!

Plus, how can you even comment on them since you've never used them.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

VaVroom1 said:


> my first criteria of a good amp is very objective: no turn on/off pop, no hiss, under rated, doesn't thermal and reliable.
> after that comes the subjectives: install friendliness and sound.
> 
> having heard a few audison vrx with pops and hiss, i say its gay. dls ultimate is in this same category.
> also saw a few audison lrx thermalled.




I have installed about 8 DLS ultimates and never heared hiss or pops, I would have to journey to say it was something in your install that did that


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

imjustjason said:


> OK Spence... you've been stroking the PDX's hard for the last week. My only question...
> 
> IF THEY ARE SO FREAKIN AWESOME WHY AREN'T YOU RUNNING THEM!!
> 
> Plus, how can you even comment on them since you've never used them.




:hanged:


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Of the amps I've used...
PG Xenon amps are bulletproof and can be had for a good price.
Memphis MClass are good solid amps but WAY overpriced.
Crossfire VR series-again overpriced but when a good deal can be had are dead even with MClass.
TREO ssx series...at least the older ones were overpriced turds on the a/b amps. Probably just needed a linedriver like the xenons do.
US Acoustics usx series "post zed"-you can't kill the damn things. Believe me, a friend of mine has tried to on several occasions by accident.


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## braves6117 (Feb 13, 2008)

:snacks:


I don't mean to join the PDX bust parade, but you can hear a difference, a dramatic one.

This is coming from a person still running one for a sub. That's right, you guessed it, because of size reasons.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

imjustjason said:


> Plus, how can you even comment on them since you've never used them.


You don't understand, it's the Tspence Guarantee. It goes something like this: trust me, I'm clueless; hence the reason why you should believe me when I say absolutely nothing about everything every time I open my trap. It's considered revoltionary in the beet farming industry.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

braves6117 said:


> :snacks:
> 
> 
> I don't mean to join the PDX bust parade, but you can hear a difference, a dramatic one.
> ...


I thought size didn't matter. 



FoxPro5 said:


> You don't understand, it's the Tspence Guarantee. It goes something like this: trust me, I'm clueless; hence the reason why you should believe me when I say absolutely nothing about everything every time I open my trap. It's considered revoltionary in the beet farming industry.


If tspence is the new authority on all things car audio I'm throwing everything I own in the trash.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

braves6117 said:


> :snacks:
> 
> 
> I don't mean to join the PDX bust parade, but you can hear a difference, a dramatic one.


All mine have made my SQ sound all digitally. 

But while we're on the subject, I like Eclipse's integration of the ICE board much more than Alpine. Seems they back it up with a more robust PS. Which also reminds me how much I love to hate the crap Alpine puts out, even though I rock a 1.600 like it's my job.


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## dvsadvocate (Mar 17, 2008)

Whats wrong with the PDXs?


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## The Drake (Apr 3, 2007)

dvsadvocate said:


> Whats wrong with the PDXs?


as its been said already and multiple times in this thread, noise floor! I had them too and would completely agree, alot of the reason I am moving to different amps.


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## The Drake (Apr 3, 2007)

imjustjason said:


> If tspence is the new authority on all things car audio I'm throwing everything I own in the trash.


X2!!


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

dumpster diving at jasons house!!!


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Shut the **** up man, we have discussed the flaws in his test a thousand times, its ********


My my. It's so sad to see such denial. :bigcry:


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> My my. It's so sad to see such denial. :bigcry:


Not as sad to see so much stupidity come from one person


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## trunks9_us (Oct 25, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> If you can hear a difference between the fine PDX and the "other SQ amps" in a blind test, then contact Richard Clarke and you could win $10,000. I'm sure you can do it. Don't let me down man.


I know I can hear a difference between a zapco c2k and a crunch psi :laugh:


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

I would love to do a test between a PDX amp and my MMats LM, or LP, or Orion, or PG MS. Hook the amps up to a battery hook up a simple speaker switch to the outputs of the amps to one set of speakers, and a RCA switch on the input. Ipod 1/8" to RCA strait in and just hit the switch and ABC them. test at jasons house to get this stupid crap put to rest.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Thankfully I have no longer have any PDX's. I Have the rest. Get a PDX and we'll do the test.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

I will accept a result done with Richard Clark who has setup a very sound evaluation methodology and he has the equipment setup for you to do this test. Bottom line is that you guys don't seem to get it through your heads that THOUSANDS of golden ear wanna-be's have tried to pull the sword from the stone and failed. Are you King Arthur or something? Guys, it's time to face facts. A good, powerful clean amp that meets certain minimum specs sounds no different that any other amp that meets those minimum specs when the two are volume matched. Why do you think this guy has never had to pay the $10,000?


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## RowJoe (Nov 14, 2008)

I got my PDX 4.100 as a gift, but now I'm wondering if I should sell it. JBL's power series looks pretty nice, as well as Sundown. Hmm...


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## trunks9_us (Oct 25, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> I will accept a result done with Richard Clark who has setup a very sound evaluation methodology and he has the equipment setup for you to do this test. Bottom line is that you guys don't seem to get it through your heads that THOUSANDS of golden ear wanna-be's have tried to pull the sword from the stone and failed. Are you King Arthur or something? Guys, it's time to face facts. A good, powerful clean amp that meets certain minimum specs sounds no different that any other amp that meets those minimum specs when the two are volume matched. Why do you think this guy has never had to pay the $10,000?


I must be king Arthur then cause I can tell a difference in ever amp I plug in weather it be class d a/b or any brand for that matter, I can hear a difference in the same setup no eq with different amps enough said cause your boring me now with your lies


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

RowJoe said:


> I got my PDX 4.100 as a gift, but now I'm wondering if I should sell it. JBL's power series looks pretty nice, as well as Sundown. Hmm...


I'm sure there are people willing to buy it off you for a discount price. What kind of offer are you looking for?


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## RowJoe (Nov 14, 2008)

Probably around $230 shipped. Not sure what the going rate is, though.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> I will accept a result done with Richard Clark who has setup a very sound evaluation methodology and he has the equipment setup for you to do this test. Bottom line is that you guys don't seem to get it through your heads that THOUSANDS of golden ear wanna-be's have tried to pull the sword from the stone and failed. Are you King Arthur or something? Guys, it's time to face facts. A good, powerful clean amp that meets certain minimum specs sounds no different that any other amp that meets those minimum specs when the two are volume matched. Why do you think this guy has never had to pay the $10,000?


Tell me, what amps have you auditioned, besides entry level ones? Get off his nutts, and please show me where thousands of people took this test, i would like to see that.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

imjustjason said:


> Thankfully I have no longer have any PDX's. I Have the rest. Get a PDX and we'll do the test.


I've got my MMats and the Xtants, I was thinking Erin could send us his PDX but they're gone aren't they?....Anyone want to lone us a PDX for a few days? Tspense can we borrow yours? Oh right...never used em. Seriosly though? anyone have a PDX to donate for a few days? It doesn't get more ABC testing then a simple switcher and IPOD strait in, no processing, no radios, signal in, signal out. volume match em...listen to the difference.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Yea, mine are gone. I'm trying to think of people I know who may have one I could borrow but can't.


When you guys come down next month, I say we have an amp listening test at the BBQ for real. I'll have the power supply ready.


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## BigAl205 (May 20, 2009)

I used to have a Carver 2060 MMF amp that I absolutely loved. Where would you guys rank it on this list?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I have two PDX amps, a 4.150 and 1.600, but I'm not too thrilled with the idea of "loaning" them out.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

trunks9_us said:


> I must be king Arthur then cause I can tell a difference in ever amp I plug in weather it be class d a/b or any brand for that matter, I can hear a difference in the same setup no eq with different amps enough said cause your boring me now with your lies


Amplifier Challenge Rules

Feel free. I want to see someone win that $10,000. I'm sure you can do it.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

89grand said:


> I have two PDX amps, a 4.150 and 1.600, but I'm not too thrilled with the idea of "loaning" them out.


well jason and I are two trusted members if its any consolation...


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

I'm NOT to be trusted.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

haha..yeah
its probably easier to do something at bikin's GTG


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## Yoursogansta (Apr 6, 2009)

I’ve listened to PDX amps installed in a demo car at local ABT store and I was VERY disappointed with the static hiss. One of the loudest hisses I’ve heard to date!
I used to believe that watt is watt until I’ve compared JL slash amps with Diamond D7 side by side. I could tell the difference, the D7 was just more dynamic and musical. oke:

If you say the watt is watt, can you say that violin is a violin?


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## Yoursogansta (Apr 6, 2009)

No one added anything to the list yet….


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## The Drake (Apr 3, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Yea, mine are gone. I'm trying to think of people I know who may have one I could borrow but can't.
> 
> 
> When you guys come down next month, I say we have an amp listening test at the BBQ for real. I'll have the power supply ready.


I have a 4.150 left, I may be coming to the BBQ, but not sure, its close to a 10 hour drive for me! 

PM me if you dont have anyone to "borrow" one from and really do want one to test/compare with.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

How many people have taken the challenge? 
Richard Clark says over a couple thousand people have taken the test, and nobody has passed. He used to do the test for large groups of people at various audio seminars, and didn't charge individuals to do the test, which accounted for the vast majority of the people who did the test. Around 1996 was the last of the big tests, and since then he has done the test for small numbers of people on request, for a charge ($200 for unaffiliated individuals, $500 for people representing companies).


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Yeah I would say you didn't guess right either if 10K was on the line...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

The Drake said:


> I have a 4.150 left, I may be coming to the BBQ, but not sure, its close to a 10 hour drive for me!
> 
> PM me if you dont have anyone to "borrow" one from and really do want one to test/compare with.


Thanks for the offer, man. I’ll definitely keep that in mind. 

Hopefully you can make it out. 10 hours is quite the haul. I’m hoping that as the date nears, more people will know for sure and maybe that will encourage others to show up.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

guitarsail said:


> Yeah I would say you didn't guess right either if 10K was on the line...


LMAO, I was thinking the same thing


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## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

*What the **** does noise floor have to do with the Richard Clark test? *

I had an old Alpine MRV amp that hissed like a ****ing snake, and moving to a new amp totally removed that problem. Richard Clark's test is based on amps that don't ADD NOISE TO THE SIGNAL CHAIN. 

Jesus titty-****ing Christ, its time for cat pictures.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

shadowfactory said:


> *What the **** does noise floor have to do with the Richard Clark test? *
> 
> I had an old Alpine MRV amp that hissed like a ****ing snake, and moving to a new amp totally removed that problem. Richard Clark's test is based on amps that don't ADD NOISE TO THE SIGNAL CHAIN.
> 
> Jesus titty-****ing Christ, its time for cat pictures.



When inside a car, who can hear any amp over 75db S/N anyway? Seriously? Cat pics is right!


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## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> When inside a car, who can hear any amp over 75db S/N anyway? Seriously? Cat pics is right!


I can and did, *******. It was so bad it made me buy a new amp when I wasn't even planning on it. It made me think my head unit had a bad ground (which it didn't).

If the PDX's are so great shut the **** up and go buy some.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Right, I want to pay $300+ for an amp that I can AUDIBLY hear hiss in WHILE DRIVING 80mph in a pretty well ‘sound isolated’ car. Maybe I shouldn’t have bothered to treat my car for road noise and then I could just let that override the amp’s noise issues. Brilliant. That would save me a lot of money and time, too.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

shadowfactory said:


> I can and did, *******. It was so bad it made me buy a new amp when I wasn't even planning on it. It made me think my head unit had a bad ground.


Whatever makes you placate that imagination you have about reality in car audio. Don't you have to take your meds by now?


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## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> Whatever makes you placate that imagination you have about reality in car audio. Don't you have to take your meds by now?


Yes, my imagination made me hate an amp I loved purely because of its horrible static hiss when I had zero intention of replacing it. 

Just because your econobox is deafening at freeway speeds doesn't mean my car is. 

Hell, it was so loud EVEN YOU could ****ing hear it if you were in my car. 

Now go buy some PDX's and jizz all over them.


----------



## M-Dub (Nov 29, 2006)

shadowfactory said:


> Jesus titty-****ing Christ, its time for cat pictures.


----------



## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> My take,
> 
> My award for amplifier design of the year (or the moment) is:
> Alpine's PDX series amps
> ...


Well we could start by talking about the nondeatable pile of **** sounding lpf on the 1.600. I'm sure if I took the Richard Clark test with some nice cascading filter action I could hear a difference, but wait, that would be too similar to an actual real life situation, we can't have that messing up the testing We can also talk about the cheap ass PLASTIC screw caps on the PDX that are made to look like metal. My take on the PDX? It's a nice amp to install, the fun ends after that/
Lets not forget the lovley buzz of the h701 processor if you use analog.
So yeah, agreed that they are just the **** this year, 



tspence73 said:


> When inside a car, who can hear any amp over 75db S/N anyway? Seriously? Cat pics is right!


Wow. I'm done./


----------



## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

wow, I was gone for a couple hours and this thread has gotten out of hand. Some of you need your mouths washed out with soap


----------



## 98RedGT (Jan 11, 2009)

Thread of the year? This one is really going places !


----------



## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

Genxx said:


> My ranking based on what I have used in my own vehicles over the years.
> 
> 1. Zapco
> 2. Audison LRx
> ...


did you have the Arc in the same setup as the other amps? I'm surprised, I haven't owned one personally but I've heard them in other cars and I was impressed.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

shadowfactory said:


> Jesus titty-****ing Christ, its time for cat pictures.





Megalo said:


>


Both the phrase and the Gif... TOTAL WIN!


----------



## M-Dub (Nov 29, 2006)

98RedGT said:


> Thread of the year? This one is really going places !


I don't know. I think this one has it beat.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

shadowfactory said:


> Yes, my imagination made me hate an amp I loved purely because of its horrible static hiss when I had zero intention of replacing it.
> 
> Just because your econobox is deafening at freeway speeds doesn't mean my car is.
> 
> ...


If the noise was truly as loud as you make out, then it would very likely be a factory defect or a grounding/other issue. Amp hiss in a car shouldn't be audible. I myself previously had a generic Kingwood POS amp that was like 60-watts x 4 RMS. That amp was quiet enough not to be heard at idle. At the moment the only hiss I hear is when I crank the headunit volume past 32 (out of 50). When it's just the amp set on it's gain, it's dead silent. The previous amp was also silent at idle.


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> Amp hiss in a car shouldn't be audible.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> If the noise was truly as loud as you make out, then it would very likely be a factory defect or a grounding/other issue. Amp hiss in a car shouldn't be audible.


Dude, there are at least 4 people in this thread alone saying they had the same complaints. I know a couple others who have said the same. I’ve read competitors say the exact same. It’s the amps’ design as far as I can tell. 
Buy it if you want. I don’t care. I ran 3 of them and don’t think I will again. I just couldn’t ignore the noise floor.


----------



## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

chad said:


> Both the phrase and the Gif... TOTAL WIN!


Holy crap that is SOOO full of win'


----------



## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

Well it was as loud as I said, and no, it wasn't a grounding issue. The amp would hiss with no RCA's plugged into it and when it was replaced with a new amp, THE EXACT SAME GROUND POINT AND WIRE WERE USED, and MAGICALLY the noise disappeared. 

You can speculate about my amp until your balls explode, doesn't change the fact that the hiss was loud as hell and purely the amps fault. 

And I don't give a **** what your experience with this issue is, because it has nothing to do with my Alpine MRV sucking balls. End of story. 



tspence73 said:


> If the noise was truly as loud as you make out, then it would very likely be a factory defect or a grounding/other issue. Amp hiss in a car shouldn't be audible. I myself previously had a generic Kingwood POS amp that was like 60-watts x 4 RMS. That amp was quiet enough not to be heard at idle. At the moment the only hiss I hear is when I crank the headunit volume past 32 (out of 50). When it's just the amp set on it's gain, it's dead silent. The previous amp was also silent at idle.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Dude, there are at least 4 people in this thread alone saying they had the same complaints. I know a couple others who have said the same. I’ve read competitors say the exact same. It’s the amps’ design as far as I can tell.
> Buy it if you want. I don’t care. I ran 3 of them and don’t think I will again. I just couldn’t ignore the noise floor.


Mass hearing delusion. :thumbsdown:


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## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

Megalo said:


>


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> Mass hearing delusion. :thumbsdown:


truth. I got my ears cleaned with tobasco sauce. noise issues... GONE.


----------



## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

Usually delusion means the ONE person who is denying the TRUTH KNOWN TO THE MASSES.


----------



## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Yoursogansta said:


> No one added anything to the list yet….


Because the notion that some amps are "audiophile" is as almost as irritatingly annoying as this thread is 'tspenced.'


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

Everyone's crazy but me!!!


----------



## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

This cannot be the thread of the year, Andy Jones or the hated guys haven't even posed yet! Waaaat?!? hehe....


----------



## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> Mass hearing delusion. :thumbsdown:


Tspence's lack of real world experience...:thumbsdown:


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

If he is too lazy to search this forum, he won't read your links, A.


----------



## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

minibox said:


> did you have the Arc in the same setup as the other amps? I'm surprised, I haven't owned one personally but I've heard them in other cars and I was impressed.


First replaced the ARC FD4150 and FD2100 with Aura RPM stage 2 amps there was a noticble difference even the wife could hear. Then change the RPM stage 2 on the sub to a Autotek needed to be able to run 2ohm or 1ohm if disired. So yes sam vehicle same speakers same everything.

Next tried the 1200.1 inplace of the Autotek. The 1200.1 should have made at least the same power as the Autotek on a TC OEM 10. However, this was not the case. A huge difference in output with the Autotek.

So there was my a/b test with the ARC after that sold all the FD line that I had, which was the entire line of FD laying around.


----------



## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Wow I just read that article...That is amazing what Carver did...

It kinda proves that amps do sound different...but can be made to sound the same...


----------



## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Mass hearing delusion. :thumbsdown:


Yeah, that's it ****-for-brains, EVERYONE else in the world is wrong but you!


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

I think we need to get everyone on the forum to put spence on the ignore list, that would be awsome


----------



## The Drake (Apr 3, 2007)

BeatsDownLow said:


> I think we need to get everyone on the forum to put spence on the ignore list, that would be awsome


well I think if people really wanted to ignore him, they would have already... He is still on here because we give him attention with every stupid comment he says, I am sure he loves it.


----------



## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

tspence73 said:


> Mass hearing delusion. :thumbsdown:


I think it would be better if you just stopped listening to music altogether.


----------



## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> I think we need to get everyone on the forum to put spence on the ignore list, that would be awsome


This is great idea, imagine spence flailing alone in his desperation.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)




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## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

Genxx said:


> First replaced the ARC FD4150 and FD2100 with Aura RPM stage 2 amps there was a noticble difference even the wife could hear. Then change the RPM stage 2 on the sub to a Autotek needed to be able to run 2ohm or 1ohm if disired. So yes sam vehicle same speakers same everything.
> 
> Next tried the 1200.1 inplace of the Autotek. The 1200.1 should have made at least the same power as the Autotek on a TC OEM 10. However, this was not the case. A huge difference in output with the Autotek.
> 
> So there was my a/b test with the ARC after that sold all the FD line that I had, which was the entire line of FD laying around.


"even the wife could hear"
That certainly is the true litmus test.


----------



## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)




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## chadillac3 (Feb 3, 2006)

God help me here, but I'm going to agree with tspence...to a degree. I've owned 5 different PDX amps in multiple vehicles, and the noise floor never bothered me in the least. With that said, I almost never listen to my stereo with the car off and even then it wasn't nearly as bad as many seem to have experienced. Now with that said, I'm one of the people who always warns people about the H701 analog in hiss, so it's not like I don't know what a nasty hiss is.

My personal take on the PDX is that they were a brilliant design considering they were one of the first to come out with an ultra-compact, nice looking full-range class D that gained widepsread acceptance. I mean, ****, the founder of this site, npdang, was using them last I knew.


----------



## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

BLASPHEMY!!!


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I have a question about the PDX "hiss problem". Is this gain related or are people claiming it just hisses no matter what? I find it a little hard to believe that Alpine could sell an amp if it was that bad, especially at a premium price. If it just has hiss issues at high gain settings, that's not that big of a deal.

I have a PDX-4.150 but it's not installed so I can't say myself.


----------



## JJDH (Mar 8, 2009)

ftw jl slash hasnt let me down, its the street guys high end amp. no noise, no prollem. **** a challenge, i can hit u in the head with it and take the 10 g's


----------



## Stel (Mar 11, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> Did you even read the rules in the link you provided to the challenge? There are sufficient controls in that experiment to match the amps so that a comparison is apples to apples. In the real world, those controls don't exist.
> 
> One of the primary complaints with the PDX is the noise floor. That's ****ing specifically excluded from RC's test.


RC only eq'ed the amps and limited output to nonclipping ranges. Though maybe PDX amps were never used in any of his tests since noisy amps were excluded ("Neither amplifier can exhibit excessive noise") and they actually do have a terrible noise floor. I'd like to see a list of amps that were tested.


----------



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

OK, I'll add that I've owned the PPI DCX series, which were really quite good despite the DEI ownership. The build quality and durability is great. I had them in several builds over the course of over 5 years, and now that I've sold them to a family member I hear they are still doing great. So I vote them in the "Good Quality" amp classification. 

As for my current RSd amps, I'm pleased as all hell! They sound great, their guts look like they use the same quality parts they did with the older models, and they work perfectly. I'd also put them in the "Good Quality" class.

Lastly, I'd recommend the Pioneer PRS ICEpower type amps in the "Good Quality" class as well. The last time I built a system using them I was quite pleased, and they are efficient as all hell. Most things using ICEpower are, of course.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

89grand said:


> I have a question about the PDX "hiss problem". Is this gain related or are people claiming it just hisses no matter what? I find it a little hard to believe that Alpine could sell an amp if it was that bad, especially at a premium price. If it just has hiss issues at high gain settings, that's not that big of a deal.
> 
> I have a PDX-4.150 but it's not installed so I can't say myself.


Gain. 

Yes, yes... I know....


----------



## chadillac3 (Feb 3, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> Gain.
> 
> Yes, yes... I know....


Did you use a 4.150 or a 4.100..with the 4.150 I used I swear I barely had to move the gains off the min setting to get more than ample power, but the 4.100 was significantly less stout. Much like the PDX-5 I have in the car now. And with the sub amps you really have to crank the gain to get good output.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I had a 4.100 and 4.150... then moved to 2 4.150's. 

I know the logical thing is to 'keep the gains low', but you limit output. I wasn't OK with that. I found a middle grounds for a while, but it was still noticeable. In fact, Zach (boostedrex) and Larry (cubdenno) can both attest to this. they heard the car and we discussed the hiss. I just couldn't take it, man. Once I noticed it, it bothered me relentlessly. And like I said about the gain... I just wasn't okay with having to lower gains to a point where the volume wasn't very respectable... and I never drove them into clipping once. Hell, at one point I measured the output and only had 100w using a 0db tone going into the midbasses, so imagine how little musical power there was and how low the gain was... still noise was unbearable.

Thought it was just me, but I see more reports of the same thing from both hobbyists and competitors.


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## mSaLL150 (Aug 14, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> My take...


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

chadillac3 said:


> God help me here, but I'm going to agree with tspence...to a degree. I've owned 5 different PDX amps in multiple vehicles, and the noise floor never bothered me in the least. With that said, I almost never listen to my stereo with the car off and even then it wasn't nearly as bad as many seem to have experienced. Now with that said, I'm one of the people who always warns people about the H701 analog in hiss, so it's not like I don't know what a nasty hiss is.
> 
> My personal take on the PDX is that they were a brilliant design considering they were one of the first to come out with an ultra-compact, nice looking full-range class D that gained widepsread acceptance. I mean, ****, the founder of this site, npdang, was using them last I knew.


There is no doubt that these guys are so unreasonable in their arguments that it's pretty clear they're trying to give me **** and they know damn well the PDX amps are excellent amps. If they are truly trying to say they are that bad, then they are all delusional.


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## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> There is no doubt that these guys are so unreasonable in their arguments that it's pretty clear they're trying to give me **** and they know damn well the PDX amps are excellent amps. If they are truly trying to say they are that bad, then they are all *delusional.*





shadowfactory said:


> Usually delusion means the ONE person who is denying the TRUTH KNOWN TO THE MASSES.


Sorry to quote myself.

Please, PLEASE go buy some. Go do it now, right now, this second.

Then you can stop being the one person in this thread who is purely speculating about their performance without ANY first hand knowledge or experience with using them.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> There is no doubt that these guys are so unreasonable in their arguments that it's pretty clear they're trying to give me **** and they know damn well the PDX amps are excellent amps. If they are truly trying to say they are that bad, then they are all delusional.


One of these days I'll get my PDX-4.150 installed. You'll know the truth then. If I say it's bad, it is. If I say it's good, it is.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

89grand said:


> I have a question about the PDX "hiss problem". Is this gain related or are people claiming it just hisses no matter what? I find it a little hard to believe that Alpine could sell an amp if it was that bad, especially at a premium price. If it just has hiss issues at high gain settings, that's not that big of a deal.
> 
> I have a PDX-4.150 but it's not installed so I can't say myself.


My problem with the PDX (notice I said my) was it didn't do that well with the upper frequencies and only fair with the Mid Range frequencies.

I then went with the JL Audio Slash 300/2v2 Class A/B there was a noticeable improvement. I ended up with the new Audison LRx Class A/B Amps, it was my favorite of the three.


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## Yoursogansta (Apr 6, 2009)

I updated the list with amps that you mentioned. Keep them coming


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## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

minibox said:


> Amps I have used with the same set of components: alpine pdx, JL slash, audison vrx, audison lrx, zapco c2k, zapco reference.
> 
> My rankings:
> 1) Zapco c2k
> ...


quoting myself
If pdx amps were better than any of these than they would still be in my car.


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## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

Yoursogansta said:


> I updated the list with amps that you mentioned. Keep them coming


you waded through all these tangents just to update the list. wow, you are a tenacious one.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Mass hearing delusion. :thumbsdown:


If you havent personally used/owned on then I think you should shut up regarding the PDX amps....really consider that you are arguing with people who have actually owned/used the amps


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> There is no doubt that these guys are so unreasonable in their arguments that it's pretty clear they're trying to give me **** and they know damn well the PDX amps are excellent amps. If they are truly trying to say they are that bad, then they are all delusional.


Did you not read what I just wrote above? 
I really don't know how much more reasonable one can be than that.


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## Guy (Feb 16, 2006)

Time for the moths, eh!


----------



## matdotcom2000 (Aug 16, 2005)

I love this thread, the drama, the action, and the pure wit  
BTW I heard the pdx amps in a friends car and I dont know if it was the setup or what but I have heard some that are better. I have the kenwoods and like them alot. I have owned the JL slash series I loved them but they were sucking the life out of my electrical system. I have heard the xxk Arcs and those were very clean sounding. I have not heard the new JL HD amps I would like to and the audison lrx. 

P.S. if you have not physically heard music being played through an amp please dont comment and lets keep this thread movin

Holla


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## trebor (Jun 30, 2008)

89grand said:


> I have a question about the PDX "hiss problem". Is this gain related or are people claiming it just hisses no matter what? I find it a little hard to believe that Alpine could sell an amp if it was that bad, especially at a premium price. If it just has hiss issues at high gain settings, that's not that big of a deal.
> 
> I have a PDX-4.150 but it's not installed so I can't say myself.


The hiss is there but purely gain related. At least it is on mine.


----------



## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

oke:
What, no votes for Zuki? 
:dead_horse:
And I could discern the noise floor on my PDX at 75mph in my STi with gains set way low, so I can only imagine how noticable it would be in a car with any sound deadning (as the stock subie had none).....

Of the amps that I have used, SQ as follows:

Zuki>JL Slash>Alpine v12>PDX


----------



## JJDH (Mar 8, 2009)




----------



## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

slade1274 said:


> oke:
> What, no votes for Zuki?
> :dead_horse:
> And I could discern the noise floor on my PDX at 75mph in my STi with gains set way low, so I can only imagine how noticable it would be in a car with any sound deadning (as the stock subie had none).....
> ...


After hearing Zuki in your car I would have to cast a vote for Zuki but I have never owned them and haven't heard them side by side with other amps in the same system. Loved the STi though


----------



## M-Dub (Nov 29, 2006)

I'd like to add the Eclipse XA4000 as a good entry level, full range, class D, SQ amp.


----------



## Yoursogansta (Apr 6, 2009)

Last update for today :deal2:


----------



## JJDH (Mar 8, 2009)

Yoursogansta said:


> Last update for today :deal2:










Product Information 
High pass variable crossover (15Hz-300Hz) @ 24 dB/oct, with 1X or 15X multiplier switch Low pass variable crossover (15Hz-300Hz) @ 24 dB/oct, with 1X or 15X multiplier switch. Separate Gain control for both Left and Right Channels on all 4 channels MONO/Stereo Selector switch for L+R Center Channel and or Sub Applications. BASS Boost Variable from 0 db to +12 dB Parametric BASS Boost Control with variable frequencies from 30hz-90hz. RMS power at 4
Stereo 150W × 4CH RMS power at 2
Stereo 250W × 4CH RMS power at 1
Stereo 350W × 4CH RMS power at 4
Mono 500W × 2CH RMS power at 2
Mono 700W× 2CH Damping Factor > 900 S/N Ratio > 118 dB Total harmonic distortion 0.0051%


----------



## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

JJDH said:


> name this amp, u will never guess the price
> Product Information
> High pass variable crossover (15Hz-300Hz) @ 24 dB/oct, with 1X or 15X multiplier switch Low pass variable crossover (15Hz-300Hz) @ 24 dB/oct, with 1X or 15X multiplier switch. Separate Gain control for both Left and Right Channels on all 4 channels MONO/Stereo Selector switch for L+R Center Channel and or Sub Applications. BASS Boost Variable from 0 db to +12 dB Parametric BASS Boost Control with variable frequencies from 30hz-90hz. RMS power at 4
> Stereo 150W × 4CH RMS power at 2
> ...


Critical Mass....it's been discussed ad nauseum on here


----------



## JJDH (Mar 8, 2009)

100 grand tho, insane.. i didnt search on here for it, dont mind the interuption


----------



## dvsadvocate (Mar 17, 2008)

Im using a PDX-5 on my setup right now and there aint no hissing sound. My gains for the mids are set at the halfway detent.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

bamaster said:


> No Sundown? Maybe under Good Quality? Dunno...


Sundown falls under "name on a heatsink" since it is manufactured by a cookie cutter build house in either China or Korea!


----------



## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

Back in the day...it is common knowledge that when you have hiss, you back down the gain. Like one installer I know, who said that Sinfoni amps hisses. Then upon inspection...he had his gains way up.

My Sinfoni, Genesis, Zapco amps...and all other amps I've had before like LP, Adcom, Butler, Orion, Kicker, PPI, some RFs, Macrom...all hisses when I crank up the gains. So I guess...I could classify all of them as ****ty amps like the PDX...because they hiss. But when I set the gains properly, no hiss.

I guess people forget that the gain knob is not a volume control. When you want more volume or loudness, buy a bigger amp.

BTW, I've heard a PDX setup...with no hiss at all. Makes me think...did you guys buy authorized?


----------



## dvsadvocate (Mar 17, 2008)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Sundown falls under "name on a heatsink" since it is manufactured by a cookie cutter build house in either China or Korea!


Its from Korea. And they aint no cookie cutter buildhouse unlike what China does.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

dvsadvocate said:


> Its from Korea. And they aint no cookie cutter buildhouse unlike what China does.


Tell me where the current Sundown SAE series is manufactured again? If you say Korea, you are WRONG!

ETA: You can't deny that any amplifier produced by Zenon is nothing more than a name on a heatsink. For a minimum order of 300 (or is that 350) units, they will put YOUR name on that heat sink!

ETA2: Don't construe my comment to mean that I am ragging on Sundown, Audio Que, Cadence, etc. IMHO, customer service with a quality product is more important than where the amplifier is manufactured!


----------



## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Tell me where the current Sundown SAE series is manufactured again? If you say Korea, you are WRONG!
> 
> ETA: You can't deny that any amplifier produced by Zenon is nothing more than a name on a heatsink. For a minimum order of 300 (or is that 350 units), they will put YOUR name on that heat sink!


I think he was referring to the SAX line which are internally the same with the DC Audio amplifiers which were made in Korea.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

invecs said:


> BTW, I've heard a PDX setup...with no hiss at all. Makes me think...did you guys buy authorized?


My PDX didnt have any hiss at all, actually it was noise free in my install....to make it simple it didnt sound as good as the Arc XXK or even the Next amps I had in there....Power and size of the PDX is their selling point anyways so I cant say im disappointed


----------



## circa40 (Jan 20, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> When inside a car, who can hear any amp over 75db S/N anyway? Seriously? :


Seriously? Are you seriously asking this question? 
Sorry but after reading this comment for the 20th time, still cant comprehend WTF you are trying to say. 

You are saying you cant hear any amp with a SN over 75db??? Im guessing you are used to your planet audio amps with an SN of 75db...but most decent AB amps these days are in the 90s. So im assuming if I plug in an amp with a SN rating of somewhere in the 90s, you wont heart it?


----------



## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

circa40 said:


> Seriously? Are you seriously asking this question?
> Sorry but after reading this comment for the 20th time, still cant comprehend WTF you are trying to say.
> 
> You are saying you cant hear any amp with a SN over 75db??? Im guessing you are used to your planet audio amps with an SN of 75db...but most decent AB amps these days are in the 90s. So im assuming if I plug in an amp with a SN rating of somewhere in the 90s, you wont heart it?


I think he was trying to say you can't discern a S/N ratio greater than 75db in a car, ever, but as usual he just took a dump on his keyboard and that abortion of a sentence came out.


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Hiss sounds can be due to lots of causes :
earthing of the amp
RCA cable's quality
HU's problem(like what Pioneer always has)
Too much equipments installed in between HU to amp like pre-amp, EXO.....

That's why I use industrial grade coaxial cables for my RCA, just to eliminate any possible cause.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

kyheng said:


> Hiss sounds can be due to lots of causes :
> earthing of the amp
> RCA cable's quality
> HU's problem(like what Pioneer always has)
> ...


There, fixed it for you!


----------



## VaVroom1 (Dec 2, 2005)

kyheng said:


> That's why I use industrial grade coaxial cables for my RCA, just to eliminate any possible cause.


care to share more? what coaxial cables are you using? thank you in advance.


----------



## VaVroom1 (Dec 2, 2005)

BeatsDownLow said:


> I have installed about 8 DLS ultimates and never heared hiss or pops, I would have to journey to say it was something in your install that did that


these amps never made it in my car but they were in my friends'. they being competitors and having seen their work, i trust their install skills. these problems were fixed after sending for amps service. 

i have to requalify that from the many cars i heard with these amps, only a few have these issues.


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

VaVroom1 said:


> care to share more? what coaxial cables are you using? thank you in advance.


BRAND REX|RG179PE 25M|CABLE, COAX, RG179PE, 25M | Farnell Malaysia
This is what I'm using now. Sometimes certain product with the "car audio" mark, it will be expensive.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Well,

I think this thread sorta reveals who the fruitcakes are that ignore science and believe in fairy magic powder that makes $1000 more special than $450 ones.


----------



## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> Well,
> 
> I think this thread sorta reveals who the fruitcake is.


Fixed.


----------



## Stel (Mar 11, 2008)

kyheng said:


> Hiss sounds can be due to lots of causes :
> earthing of the amp
> RCA cable's quality
> HU's problem(like what Pioneer always has)
> Too much equipments installed in between HU to amp like pre-amp, EXO.....


I wonder if the people who complained of hiss on the PDX amps eliminated all other possible sources. It seems there are quite a few claiming there is no problem with hiss.


----------



## bamaster (Nov 18, 2008)

invecs said:


> I think he was referring to the SAX line which are internally the same with the DC Audio amplifiers which were made in Korea.



I have the SAX and SAZ series amps.


----------



## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Sorry, but I had to throw this in here:


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Stel said:


> I wonder if the people who complained of hiss on the PDX amps eliminated all other possible sources. It seems there are quite a few claiming there is no problem with hiss.


Maybe yes, maybe no.... I don't know, I just never use PDX amps before. But I do listen to V-power series before and no such issues. Hope this is isolated case and not a common failure.
I prefer to amps that using Differential-Balanced Inputs concept as this is really reduce time to do troubleshooting on noise issues.


----------



## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I'm wondering if tuning preference comes into play (PDX hiss), I've noticed a lot of members like to focus on Mid Bass, Sub response. If you're stepping on the Highs and Mid Range you're not going to hear the noise floor as much (IMO). Like I said before Mid Range and High Frequencies don't shine with the PDX.


----------



## falkenbd (Aug 16, 2008)

Megalo said:


>



OMG, best thing evar! can't stop snickering.


----------



## RowJoe (Nov 14, 2008)

invecs said:


> Back in the day...it is common knowledge that when you have hiss, you back down the gain. Like one installer I know, who said that Sinfoni amps hisses. Then upon inspection...he had his gains way up.
> 
> My Sinfoni, Genesis, Zapco amps...and all other amps I've had before like LP, Adcom, Butler, Orion, Kicker, PPI, some RFs, Macrom...all hisses when I crank up the gains. So I guess...I could classify all of them as ****ty amps like the PDX...because they hiss. But when I set the gains properly, no hiss.
> 
> ...


My gain was all the way down, HU and amps properly grounded, and my tweeters constantly had a small hiss. =/


----------



## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

I have no hiss with my PDX amps. However, they do not match up to the Sinfoni gear I replaced in terms of SQ ...


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

infiniti23 said:


> I have no hiss with my PDX amps. However, they do not match up to the Sinfoni gear I replaced in terms of SQ ...


The RC challenge awaits!


----------



## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> The RC challenge awaits!


Dude!? Drop the RC challenge, it doesn't apply. Have you read the RC Amp Challenge Rules & Regulations? What am I thinking... of course you haven't... but you still seem to know ALL about it.


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> Dude!? Drop the RC challenge, it doesn't apply. Have you read the RC Amp Challenge Rules & Regulations? What am I thinking... of course you haven't... but you still seem to know ALL about it.


Well he did once think that he could collect $10,000 from RC. Sadly, spence would probably just purchase more Infinity Reference gear with the money.:laugh:


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> Well,
> 
> I think this thread sorta reveals who the fruitcakes are that ignore science and believe in fairy magic powder that makes $1000 more special than $450 ones.


Dude. You don't have a ****ing clue what you're arguing. Stop ****ing grunching and start reading. Your opinions are ****. Understand WTF you are arguing before you argue it.



Autiophile said:


> You are doing everyone a disservice by poorly articulating and perhaps simply not understanding the basics of the amplifier sonics debate. You picked a side (unfortunately mine), and now you are misstating the argument and making the rest of us look foolish simply by association.
> 
> Did you even read the rules in the link you provided to the challenge? There are sufficient controls in that experiment to match the amps so that a comparison is apples to apples. In the real world, those controls don't exist.
> 
> ...


We're pretty much all iconoclasts here. But being a stubborn ****ing ass, when you have less than even a superficial understanding, is not how intelligent people "go against the grain." We don't pick on you for "going against the grain." We don't pick on you because it's fun. We pick on you because you make yourself look ****ing retarded, seemingly on purpose.


----------



## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> The RC challenge awaits!


So does your beat down.

You don't get it.
You never have gotten it.
You never will get it.

So get this: The Tspense Challenge. I put up $10 for every reply that you make that shows you actually comprehend something. When you 'tspence' a thread, you loose a $10 trial (BTW, you'd currently be in the hole by about $57,000 with all the threads you've trashed). When you accumulate 10 successful trials, you get $100. $100 is enough to buy a vBulletin licence and a domain name for one year. Then you can take all your stupid ass ******** over to your very own forum and argue with yourself about how confused your are about stuff and whatnot. 

You see it's a challenge because it forces you to actually read and comprehend in order to earn your stake. And if you **** it up like you continue to do, then you don't get the grand prize. More importantly, If you don't complete the trials it means you're NOT doing what your SUPPOSED to be doing on this forum: learning from it NOT destroying it. 

The "ninja" squad has given you more breaks than anyone on this forum...and there have been quite a few little ****s running around here. Take it from me, be thankful you even have an account here, dude.


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

**** it I will pay half of that right now if it gets him the **** off this board


----------



## falkenbd (Aug 16, 2008)

BeatsDownLow said:


> **** it I will pay half of that right now if it gets him the **** off this board


i'll put $10 towards the "Delete Tspence Fund"


----------



## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

I've got $20.


----------



## falkenbd (Aug 16, 2008)

WOW, this board could raise some serious money if they took donations in order to delete and ban him...


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I just sold my PDX-1.600 so I can throw in $10


----------



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

$10.


----------



## bird333 (May 28, 2008)

Ok someone please explain the significant of the cats if you don't like a thread or a poster in the thread?


----------



## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

bird333 said:


> Ok someone please explain the significant of the cats if you don't like a thread or a poster in the thread?


What's the matter *Bird*333 are you afraid of Cats?


----------



## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

I'm in for $10.....Paypal sent.... LOL!


----------



## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

RowJoe said:


> My gain was all the way down, HU and amps properly grounded, and my tweeters constantly had a small hiss. =/


Did you buy authorized? If you have isolated all probable causes of hiss...most likely you have a faulty unit. BTW, did you boost anything on the topend?


----------



## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

infiniti23 said:


> I have no hiss with my PDX amps. However, they do not match up to the Sinfoni gear I replaced in terms of SQ ...


I agree...but it's just unfair to compare. In price alone...there is a big difference. But in fairness to Alpine...they did not market the PDX as an audiophile amp...but an amp with a small footprint and power.


----------



## bird333 (May 28, 2008)

michaelsil1 said:


> What's the matter *Bird*333 are you afraid of Cats?


LOL! :laugh: That's funny, but I still want to know the significance?


----------



## Yoursogansta (Apr 6, 2009)

bird333 said:


> Ok someone please explain the significant of the cats if you don't like a thread or a poster in the thread?


 Have you heard the screaming of mating cats? This is pretty much what is going on…


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Yes,

I've read the rules and they totally apply for an ARC audio vs Alpine PDX ABX comparison. You guys lose. Thanx for playing. And this board would be a really dull place without tspence. You won't know what you've got until it's gone, or something like that. Now bring your amps to RC and quit being babies!


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> Yes,
> 
> I've read the rules and they totally apply for an ARC audio vs Alpine PDX ABX comparison. You guys lose. Thanx for playing. And this board would be a really dull place without tspence. You won't know what you've got until it's gone, or something like that. Now bring your amps to RC and quit being babies!


****in tard


----------



## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Yes,
> 
> I've read the rules and they totally apply for an ARC audio vs Alpine PDX ABX comparison. You guys lose. Thanx for playing. And this board would be a really dull place without tspence. You won't know what you've got until it's gone, or something like that. Now bring your amps to RC and quit being babies!


Does it rain on your planet?


----------



## dddhhh09 (May 23, 2009)

I have 2 PDX 2x150 running 2 pair of the new Focal 165 KRX2. No hiss at all.


----------



## mokedaddy (Feb 26, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> Yes,
> 
> I've read the rules and they totally apply for an ARC audio vs Alpine PDX ABX comparison. You guys lose. Thanx for playing. And this board would be a really dull place without tspence. You won't know what you've got until it's gone, or something like that. Now bring your amps to RC and quit being babies!


This truly is the funniest **** I have read in a minute. I needed a good laugh so I thank you good sir.


----------



## herrubermensch (Jan 23, 2009)

Wow. Some deeply felt opinions here. I personally have no axe to grind and run two PDX-5s and have had no problems with hiss with the gains set on absolute minimum. In my application, two PDX-5s appeared to represent the most quality power and flexibility I could achieve, pound for pound, in a street/track car, where weight is critical. They also seem to be quite durable and do not overheat. Finally, their compact size fits really nicely in the stock amp location of many BMWs, such as my E39 M5. 

I suppose if I had it to do all over again, I would consider a Zapco DC ref amp with onboard DSP so as to eliminate the necessity of my DQXS, but for now, I'm good. I'm not any kind of audio competitor, though, and probably don't have the ear for such competition, so it may very well be that PDXs have too much hiss for the trained ear. For my ear, they are great. Just my $.02.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

herrubermensch said:


> Wow. Some deeply felt opinions here. I personally have no axe to grind and run two PDX-5s and have had no problems with hiss with the gains set on absolute minimum. In my application, two PDX-5s appeared to represent the most quality power and flexibility I could achieve, pound for pound, in a street/track car, where weight is critical. They also seem to be quite durable and do not overheat. Finally, their compact size fits really nicely in the stock amp location of many BMWs, such as my E39 M5.


These remarks are precisely why I called these, "Amp Design of the Year" or at least the modern era of car amps. Remarkable electrical efficiency (won't tax your car's alternator too bad), compact design (installs in places other amps won't), excellent build quality and trouble-free connectors are provided, and SQ that is on par with other amps in it's price range. It's a total 'win' all the way around IMO. Only the price is an issue, but if you want the best, paying a bit more is expected. Alpine should be given every industry award available for these amps.


----------



## Fiercetimbo17 (May 17, 2007)

Fvck this place reminds me of CA.com now


----------



## br85 (May 2, 2008)

I'm as big a believer in the RC challenge as anyone. But...

failing some sort of output modification (which is what RC does in his tests) class D amps (pretty much ALL car audio class D's) will not do mids and highs well, and cannot resolve transient impact and subtle dynamics well at all. Many MANY people who know what to listen for (there is no such thing as a "golden ear") describe PDX driven frontstages "loud without any real impact or dynamic flow". *This is the case even with the high noise floor issue done away with.*

This is not some "amp voodoo sq magic" that class D amps are missing, this is a simple scientific problem which doesn't show up under the specs because the spec testing that is relevant for class A and AB designs does not mean anything with class D amps.

Audio DesignLine | Why Class D Amplifiers May Test Well But Often Sound Terrible

Dynamic range on a class D is NOT limited by noise floor (which truly shows how the PDX is not a terrific amp since it neither has good dynamic range by its topological nature, nor does it have an acceptable noise floor.

Another thing to take into consideration is that class D amps are VERY finicky about the power they are fed (caps can only help us so much and the good ones really won't fit in a PDX) as far as output distortion is concerned. A car is not the best source of stable power last time I checked.


----------



## RowJoe (Nov 14, 2008)

invecs said:


> Did you buy authorized? If you have isolated all probable causes of hiss...most likely you have a faulty unit. BTW, did you boost anything on the topend?


Bought it at the Best Buy I work at. No EQ boosts at all, just cuts. Hissing was constant even at low volume. Only audible through the tweeters, though. I know I've come across other posts on this forum describing similar hissing.


----------



## 03blueSI (Feb 5, 2006)

Out of the amps I have used I would rank them as follows:

Audiophile:

Arc SE
DLS Ultimate

High quality, not quite audiophile:

JL HD

One step below, I guess mid-level:

JL Slash

Mediocre at best:

Memphis Memphis Belle


----------



## 03blueSI (Feb 5, 2006)

michaelsil1 said:


> My problem with the PDX (notice I said my) was it didn't do that well with the upper frequencies and only fair with the Mid Range frequencies.
> 
> I then went with the JL Audio Slash 300/2v2 Class A/B there was a noticeable improvement. I ended up with the new Audison LRx Class A/B Amps, it was my favorite of the three.


If there was a noticeable improvement then the PDX must be total crap. I was never happy with my JL Slash.

The only amps I have been happy with were my Arc SE, my DLS Ultimate and the JL HDs I am running now. The tru just had no emotion to it and the slash was lifeless.

The Arc was probably the best sounding amp I have used, but the power draw was too great and the size of them was hard to hide so I switched to the JL HD. best combination of sound, size and current draw in my book.


----------



## dvsadvocate (Mar 17, 2008)

The JL HD and the Alpine PDXs share the same technology am I correct?


----------



## matdotcom2000 (Aug 16, 2005)

dvsadvocate said:


> The JL HD and the Alpine PDXs share the same technology am I correct?


simular but not th same by a mile I think there i a thead somewhere about the technology of those amps arund here somewhere, I just may have to do a SEARCH


----------



## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

br85 said:


> Many MANY people who know what to listen for (there is no such thing as a "golden ear") describe PDX driven frontstages *"loud without any real impact or dynamic flow"*. *This is the case even with the high noise floor issue done away with.*


Consider myself NOT in the category of what to listen for, but I ran the 4.150 and wrote up a lengthy review on another forum. The conclusion I came to was *exactly *what you just said: the amp had no "balls" with no noise floor issue. Crazy. 

Great resource article, too. Thanks for the link.


----------



## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

dvsadvocate said:


> The JL HD and the Alpine PDXs share the same technology am I correct?


The JL's go about it slightly differently, claim that it's real special, patent it, and up-charge by an extra 400% as a result. :surprised::surprised:


----------



## dvsadvocate (Mar 17, 2008)

FoxPro5 said:


> Consider myself NOT in the category of what to listen for, but I ran the 4.150 and wrote up a lengthy review on another forum. The conclusion I came to was *exactly *what you just said: the amp had no "balls" with no noise floor issue. Crazy.
> 
> Great resource article, too. Thanks for the link.


Can you post the link to this review?


----------



## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

FoxPro5 said:


> Consider myself NOT in the category of what to listen for, but I ran the 4.150 and wrote up a lengthy review on another forum. The conclusion I came to was *exactly *what you just said: the amp had no "balls" with no noise floor issue. Crazy.
> 
> Great resource article, too. Thanks for the link.


Just read your review. Thanks.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

> "loud without any real impact or dynamic flow"...I'm as big a believer in the RC challenge as anyone.


BS! You contradict yourself in the same statement, bigtime. I think what people are experiencing with these comparisons is the *PERFORMANCE WHILE CLIPPING*. When playing the audio without clipping, the performance will be identical and you WON'T be able to ABX the difference. Your statement about "impact" and other adjectives are PRECISELY what the RC challenge was created for. 

Remember that class-d amps will sound VERY different, very likely worse when the amp starts to clip. I have set my amps with 0db tones then cut the volume to match them up. The results were rather telling for me. You NEED a lot of power to satisfy a craving for loud sound and keep from clipping, especially with bass. I'll bet that the majority of people, even intelligent people in here are clipping the **** out of their sub stage, perhaps even their midbass stage. This would explain the "impact" adjective.

The RC challenge awaits.


----------



## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> I'll bet that the majority of people, even intelligent people in here are clipping the **** out of their sub stage, perhaps even their midbass stage. This would explain the "impact" adjective.
> 
> The RC challenge awaits.


QFT.



Spence knows you suck at setting gains. He just called you on it, Bitches.

This guy sets his amps with a volt meter and 0dB test tones so he knows how it sounds (not that sound is important, cause his Fluke says it will work)


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I read the class D article as linked earlier and I question you all on this. Why such the beef? I mean if this article is to be taken as gospel then why the hell are we running CD and MP3 in a car when in fact we should be running a high quality tape-based source for our Ess-Que needs?

I mean, in the article the comparison was made, and in reality the "sampling rate" of a class D amplifier is MUCH higher than that of our beloved CD.


----------



## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

el_chupo_ said:


> This guy sets his amps with a volt meter and 0dB test tones so he knows how it sounds (not that sound is important, cause his Fluke says it will work)


FLUKE!?!?


----------



## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> BS! You contradict yourself in the same statement, bigtime. I think what people are experiencing with these comparisons is the *PERFORMANCE WHILE CLIPPING*. When playing the audio without clipping, the performance will be identical and you WON'T be able to ABX the difference. Your statement about "impact" and other adjectives are PRECISELY what the RC challenge was created for.
> 
> Remember that class-d amps will sound VERY different, very likely worse when the amp starts to clip. I have set my amps with 0db tones then cut the volume to match them up. The results were rather telling for me. You NEED a lot of power to satisfy a craving for loud sound and keep from clipping, especially with bass. I'll bet that the majority of people, even intelligent people in here are clipping the **** out of their sub stage, perhaps even their midbass stage. This would explain the "impact" adjective.
> 
> The RC challenge awaits.



All you have are assumptions "i'll bet" "i think" your assumptions dont mean ****. 98% of people on this board know more about setting gains properly and setting up audio than you do. You can read all you want and make your assumptions you still dont know **** man. Go read some more and post another 1000 useless posts


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

el_chupo_ said:


> Spence knows you suck at setting gains. He just called you on it, Bitches.
> 
> This guy sets his amps with a volt meter and 0dB test tones so he knows how it sounds (not that sound is important, cause his Fluke says it will work)


For lack of a more polite way of saying it, yes, this will do. Keep your volume within the amp's capabilities and you'll get great sound. Carry on bitches.


----------



## slade1274 (Mar 25, 2008)

chad said:


> I mean if this article is to be taken as gospel then why the hell are we running CD and MP3 in a car when in fact we should be running a high quality tape-based source for our Ess-Que needs?


Bah.... just wait till my Linn turntable is finally installed in my glove-box.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

So..........

The consensus is that there is no consensus. I vote the word "consensus" not be put in the subject line with the word "amplifiers" ever again.


----------



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> Yes,
> 
> blah blah..._*And this board would be a really dull place without tspence. You won't know what you've got until it's gone, or something like that.*_..Blah


You know you keep saying that, but I've been a member of DIYMA long before you stepped into the picture, and surprisingly I think it was better without you. 

You know you're a bridge troll whenever you hear "Don't mind Tspence, he's an f-tard" in damn near every starter thread a newbie posts on here. People are warning complete newbies about you! That's not a good sign.


----------



## simplyclean (Jan 23, 2009)

If I only have an enthusiast amp level amp, will I reducing my perceived SQ to good amp levels if I use an Ipod? If I have a enthusiast amp, can I trick it into being an audiophile amp if I use only store bought CDs and put green marker around the edge?


----------



## dashan (Apr 7, 2009)

azngotskills said:


> *If you have not personally used the amps, you should not rank them IMO*


2nded and ten character


----------



## br85 (May 2, 2008)

chad said:


> I read the class D article as linked earlier and I question you all on this. Why such the beef? I mean if this article is to be taken as gospel then why the hell are we running CD and MP3 in a car when in fact we should be running a high quality tape-based source for our Ess-Que needs?
> 
> I mean, in the article the comparison was made, and in reality the "sampling rate" of a class D amplifier is MUCH higher than that of our beloved CD.


I'm not so sure it's the sampling rate that's the problem, especially in a car. Being in prosound, I'm surprised you haven't experienced the beef we all have with class D amps. Most prosound engineers much prefer ultralinear (class G or H stuff) poweramps.


----------



## br85 (May 2, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> BS! You contradict yourself in the same statement, bigtime. I think what people are experiencing with these comparisons is the *PERFORMANCE WHILE CLIPPING*.


You *don't* know what you're talking about here. Just give your keyboard a rest when you're only vaguely familiar with something, otherwise you come off as a much bigger idiot than you probably are.


> When playing the audio without clipping, the performance will be identical and you WON'T be able to ABX the difference. Your statement about "impact" and other adjectives are PRECISELY what the RC challenge was created for.


This is simply not true. All RC has to do (if the PDX DID qualify) is make both amps measure the same. With a car's power supply chain, and with no modifications, this is impossible and the difference is night and day. He would not give you the $10,000 because this is NOT what the test is about. Of course, you'd know this *if you had actually heard what PDX's do*.


> Remember that class-d amps will sound VERY different, very likely worse when the amp starts to clip. I have set my amps with 0db tones then cut the volume to match them up. The results were rather telling for me. You NEED a lot of power to satisfy a craving for loud sound and keep from clipping, especially with bass.


Funny you mention that, since under clipping AND at low output levels you are going to get distortion with AB/B/D/G/H class amps. You probably have no idea why though.


> I'll bet that the majority of people, even intelligent people in here are clipping the **** out of their sub stage, perhaps even their midbass stage. This would explain the "impact" adjective.
> 
> The RC challenge awaits.


No it doesn't. How many times do you have to be told? You *do not get the RC challenge*

Real "Impact" is often lacking in loud cars (running any class of amps) because the power source is just not up to scratch. Running class D helps with the power consumption problem, but introduces another one.

On a side note: Class D amps with very high sampling rates increase distortion. This is why they really should only be used as subwoofer amps when the sampling rate can be kept low, and even then, Class H amps trump them anyway, in real dynamic range and efficiency is pretty dam close too.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

br85 said:


> I'm not so sure it's the sampling rate that's the problem, especially in a car. Being in prosound, I'm surprised you haven't experienced the beef we all have with class D amps. Most prosound engineers much prefer ultralinear (class G or H stuff) poweramps.


We are moving away in droves although I'm still all A/B G/H personally. The ability to pack a great amount of power in smaller lighter racks thus saving transportation and labor costs is a paramount at this point in the touring industry.

I can promise you that you will never walk into a concert and go" ohhhh, class D amps, I can tell by the sound....."


----------



## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Yes, this is a new trend. Even High End companies starts with class D/G/H: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/industry-news/54066-new-amp-brax.html 

Enjoy, 
Kelvin


----------



## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

simplyclean said:


> If I only have an enthusiast amp level amp, will I reducing my perceived SQ to good amp levels if I use an Ipod? If I have a enthusiast amp, can I trick it into being an audiophile amp if I use only store bought CDs and put green marker around the edge?


green marker = ultimate in SQ


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

br85 said:


> On a side note: Class D amps with very high sampling rates increase distortion. This is why they really should only be used as subwoofer amps when the sampling rate can be kept low, and even then, Class H amps trump them anyway, in real dynamic range and efficiency is pretty dam close too.


Again, I'll bet you a case of beer that you can't walk up to a rig and tell me what "class" of amp it's running on each passband.

And you know you can't either.

Same **** happened when they were running G/H when Clair ran Carver.... It sucked because it was light... And Clair still runs carver in their B rigs And they are STILl one of the FEW predominant sound companies.....

20 years ago you would have told me my G/H amps sucked because they did not weigh 80Lbs, made 350W/Ch, and sucked current like a hog... but if you would have never seen the amp racks... you would have never known.

It's a fuggin amplifier.


----------



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

br85 said:


> This is simply not true. All RC has to do (if the PDX DID qualify) is make both amps measure the same. With a car's power supply chain, and with no modifications, this is impossible


Not totally impossible but if you want to ***** about power supply shortages causing loss of quality, the class-d amp would be the one making out on the better end of things because it's more efficient.



> and the difference is night and day.


No, it's not.



> He would not give you the $10,000 because this is NOT what the test is about. Of course, you'd know this if you had actually heard what PDX's do.


People accuse me of not reading the site. PLEASE, GO READ THE SITE! The guy's own website, and I quote :

"The challenge

Richard Clark is an audio professional. Like many audiophiles, he originally believed the magazines and marketing materials that different amplifier topologies and components colored the sound in unique, clearly audible ways. He later did experiments to quantify and qualify these effects, and was surprised to find them inaudible when volume and other factors were matched."

"The challenge simply proves that 100 (or insert whatever number pleases you) unclipped, unmanipulated watts from a less expensive amp will sound the same as 100 unclipped, unmanipulated watts from an expensive one"

It doesn't get any clearer than that guys. Please learn to read and comprehend that this test IS all about showing that when levels are matched and certain easily achieved minimum standards are met, most amps will sound the same. The ones that sound different either have a serverly crippled design or they have been purposefuly altered or colored in some way by the manufacturer (which is NOT the purpose of an amp). 

Good day gentlemen. :laugh:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Wrong quote stud


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

Spence you are such a complete and total idiot.


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## AllenH427 (May 3, 2009)

I demand the "average" Alpine amps be moved up to good.
Silly thread from post #1.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

chad said:


> Wrong quote stud


My quotes are from the Richard Clarke Amplifier Challenge FAQ website. What quote is wrong sir?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> My quotes are from the Richard Clarke Amplifier Challenge FAQ website. What quote is wrong sir?


I did not say what you quoted me saying ........

Look up.

Yer drugs are wearing off.....


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## trebor (Jun 30, 2008)

I believe in RC's challenge and that it is also geared in his favor. After all there is a lot of money (his money) on the line. The purpose isn't to prove that all amps sound the same but that with enough patience and through carefull time consuming manipulation they can be made to sound the same.

I'd like to quote a paragraph from an article "More 12 Volt Confusion" out of the Autosound 2000 Tech Briefs, December 1993/January 1994 written by David Navone and Richard Clark. The article is about how amplifiers can change the sound,and how they can be made to sound the same plus how hard that is to do.

"So can you hear differences in amplifiers? Of course, and we're certainly not saying that all amplifiers sound the same. Subtle differences in amplifiers are certainly audible especially when they are driven to their limits and protection circuitry becomes activated. Small signal distortion in some amplifiers can particularly change reproduction of low level signals. Power supply and input stage design can have a tremendous effect on obvious noise performance, that is even audible to the hard of hearing."


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## Guy (Feb 16, 2006)

chad said:


> We are moving away in droves although I'm still all A/B G/H personally. The ability to pack a great amount of power in smaller lighter racks thus saving transportation and labor costs is a paramount at this point in the touring industry.


Yes, and the fallout is that live shows are moving away from SQ. There is more to a concert than SQ and my ears tell me the producers are focusing on the concertgoer's "experience". Welcome to the light and thump show. 



chad said:


> I can promise you that you will never walk into a concert and go" ohhhh, class D amps, I can tell by the sound....."


An easy promise to keep, given the dB levels...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

G Rahn said:


> Yes, and the fallout is that live shows are moving away from SQ. There is more to a concert than SQ and my ears tell me the producers are focusing on the concertgoer's "experience". Welcome to the light and thump show.


If you think that the "class" of amplifier being used makes a difference in that then you need your head checked... pick up a few trade rags and stop seeing ****ty shows.

You asked for thump and light, we gave it, blame it on the Internet, and the daily flash and bang of society. It was not the touring industry's choice... we'd be VERY happy with PAR cans... trust me...... 
My PA WENT down to 60 cycles HARD,, I had to go lower upon request... because of car audio, I blame it on that totally, and HT.



G Rahn said:


> An easy promise to keep, given the dB levels...


The DB levels where higher when A/B was king... let us not forget the proliferation of the MTL/MTH4


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

chad said:


> 20 years ago you would have told me my G/H amps sucked because they did not weigh 80Lbs, made 350W/Ch, and sucked current like a hog... but if you would have never seen the amp racks... you would have never known.


Argh, you are reminding me of my DJ days where a bunch of us used the Peavey CS line. Those were some HEAVY bastards for the power produced in a mobile DJ environment.



chad said:


> It's a fuggin amplifier.


Yep, as I have learned the hard way!


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## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

el_chupo_ said:


> Spence knows you suck at setting gains. He just called you on it, Bitches.
> 
> This guy sets his amps with a volt meter and 0dB test tones so he knows how it sounds (*not that sound is important, cause his Fluke says it will work*)





tspence73 said:


> For lack of a more polite way of saying it, yes, this will do. Keep your volume within the amp's capabilities and you'll get great sound. Carry on bitches.


Wow you totally didn't get that he was being sarcastic and facetious at all, did you?

ANOTHER WIN FOR TEH SPENCE AND HIS EPIC BRAIN


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Argh, you are reminding me of my DJ days where a bunch of us used the Peavey CS line. Those were some HEAVY bastards for the power produced in a mobile DJ environment.
> (


**** *****, we still lug around 2X14space racks full of crest FA and PRO 01 series 

We call the SL rack the Ball Buster and the SR rack the Ball Breaker... AND are labeled as such!


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## Guy (Feb 16, 2006)

chad said:


> If you think that the "class" of amplifier being used makes a difference in that then you need your head checked... pick up a few trade rags and stop seeing ****ty shows.


Thank you for not asking to have my ears checked.  
The equipment used at the shows has changed across the board, and that includes amplification. 
Yes, the industry has changed, which is my original point. There is less of of a focus on sound quality, regardless of societal mores. 
Speaking to the original point of the thread (or at least where it has gone), there are differences in amplification. 
I grant there are greater things to blame for the SQ decline than amplification, but it is most certainly part of the equation. If it were not, Class A and A/B circuitry would have already gone away- how are the other analog sources holding up? Hmmm, video is done, and so is low quality audio. Perhaps it's time to expose the "audio cabal" for their ability to buffalo the world into rejecting digital amplification. 
It could be purely anecdotal experience on my part, but the sound at "live" shows no longer sounds real to me... super processed and EQ'd for the thump. And not just the "****ty" shows, either. 




chad said:


> The DB levels where higher when A/B was king... let us not forget the proliferation of the MTL/MTH4


I have no idea what MTL/MTH4 is, but it's obviously something that screwed things up.  
Any time I have to wear ear protection, I'm thinking I won't be able to pick up nuances. Sorta defeats my argument... but I'm an old guy and the sound of live shows has changed, dangit!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I'll get you pics of the EV MTL rigs... they were LOUD AS HELL. Introduced int eh 80's Don't go low at all but will cause cardiac arrest when called upon.

I needs to go horiz, got a performance evaluation with the BAWZ tomorrow


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

G Rahn said:


> It could be purely anecdotal experience on my part, but the sound at "live" shows no longer sounds real to me... super processed and EQ'd for the thump. And not just the "****ty" shows, either.



Eh, I kinda have to agree with you, but there are still "old dawgs" out there, I'm one of them, trained as an "old dawg" in my 20's and will die hard that way... still can't run a digital console for ****, and don't really care to learn for that matter.

You can't expect the artist to come out of your CD player into a venue these days and sound the same, or preferably better for money in ONE NIGHT. Back in the day you could but the canned crap they produce now just can't be done live, you can TRY, but it will just sound like ****.

There are some good shows out there but they are becoming less and less now that every ****ing reality show winner becomes a touring artist........


Hence why I now "work for the man" 

I could not take the "canned ****" any longer.


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## br85 (May 2, 2008)

chad said:


> Again, I'll bet you a case of beer that you can't walk up to a rig and tell me what "class" of amp it's running on each passband.
> 
> And you know you can't either.
> 
> ...


Since in Australia there's probably all of 20 different poweramps used in common large PA setups, I could walk up to a rig and know which class each amp is because their face is so ****ing easy to recognise 

Sound wise, no. There are just too many issues with most live sound reinforcement that there's no way you could pin down each issue just by listening to it (bigger problems than what class amps are being used).

I would always go H if I had the option. Roadies would love me for it if they knew it was my idea, and I would just feel a little more comfortable than using D class amps. Call it one of many very slight audible improvements that can be made without the specifics being noticed at all.

If I were to hear the same gig, same rig at the same venue with different amps and had to choose which one sounded better, 4 times out of 5 I would probably pick the ones not using class D amplifiers, not because I could "pick the class", but because after listening to something for such a long time and knowing the material, it gets easier and easier to identify what sounds "better" to your ears. (If you remove the listening fatigue that such long tests would cause)

Like how you couldn't really tell the difference between 320kbps and 256kbps mp3 A/B, but if you heard the song 100 times (randomly 50 in each format) and were asked to pick the ones that sounded better, you'd get it right more often than not. (If you remove the listening fatigue that such long tests would cause)

Really, at the end of the day, some improvements are worth it and some are not. Many are not audible by themselves, but provide a listening experience ever-so-slightly better when combined. It all depends on how much improvement can be had for how much money. Maybe $65,000 cables CAN make the minutest of improvements (though I doubt it), but you're still an idiot if you buy them. A class H amp like the arc mini is smaller than a PDX, that is an improvement worthwhile IMHO.


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## customtronic (Jul 7, 2007)

azngotskills said:


> *If you have not personally used the amps, you should not rank them IMO*



I agree totally! Like AZ stated...if you haven't used it before all you're doing is giving a guess or mimicking someone elses thoughts.


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## customtronic (Jul 7, 2007)

Megalo said:


>



Now that's some funny stuff! LOL


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

br85 said:


> Since in Australia there's probably all of 20 different poweramps used in common large PA setups, I could walk up to a rig and know which class each amp is because their face is so ****ing easy to recognise


LOL yep. 

Efficiency is another thing to consider. Remember, some douchebag, somewhere decided that we should run at 120/240V on this side of the pond. This in turn kinda DOUBLES our current requirements 

Again, as posted above, I still love my Ball Buster/Ball Breaker combo  Even though feeding it with juice can be a real ***** at times.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

chad said:


> I'll get you pics of the EV MTL rigs... they were LOUD AS HELL. Introduced int eh 80's Don't go low at all but will cause cardiac arrest when called upon.
> 
> I needs to go horiz, got a performance evaluation with the BAWZ tomorrow


HOlY **** MTL's/MT4's...

Chad you are the MAN for bringing those up. Those things were/are just ****ing BRUTAL....just pure balls...shivers just thinking about how just ungodly loud those MFer's were....jeez...


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## Yoursogansta (Apr 6, 2009)

The first post is too old, I can't edit it? 


LOL?


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

shadowfactory said:


> Wow you totally didn't get that he was being sarcastic and facetious at all, did you?
> 
> ANOTHER WIN FOR TEH SPENCE AND HIS EPIC BRAIN


One day I will think up an audio idea that will take over the world. Muahahahaha :laugh::surprised:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

guitarsail said:


> HOlY **** MTL's/MT4's...
> 
> Chad you are the MAN for bringing those up. Those things were/are just ****ing BRUTAL....just pure balls...shivers just thinking about how just ungodly loud those MFer's were....jeez...


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

I love the bottoms on those...the 12's manifolded like that...mmm.mmmgood


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

chad said:


>


It's the CIA's new VBA torture device. Terrorists everywhere are afraid. :surprised:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

We sold a bunch of those to the Army Corps of Engineers to test noise barriers 

I still maintain those bastards.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

O rly? 

Hey CHad I'm going to be coming through your neck of the woods this july on the way up to Greenbay...I should stop in with my better half and meet you, maybe have lunch or something.


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## PhoenixGoldFan (May 31, 2008)

What about the Phoenix Gold "M" series?
I think they're above "Ti" or even "Xenon" (Some say that they are almost equal)...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

guitarsail said:


> O rly?
> 
> Hey CHad I'm going to be coming through your neck of the woods this july on the way up to Greenbay...I should stop in with my better half and meet you, maybe have lunch or something.


If you are shooting up 57 I'm in Champaign/Urbana at work. Home is off the beaten path a ways. But CU is RIGHT ON 57... lunch would be good, show you around the worky-work.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Chad, 

Your Avatar is looking a little piqued.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Ty (rapper)
In the mid 1990s, he was involved in the Ghetto Grammar organisation and it was here that his interest in poetry and rapping piqued. …


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## freesole (Jul 8, 2009)

I know some people don't like all these threads but honestly, this is probably the most newb friendly list there is for amps out on the market. It's informative and a good starting point for research. With that being said though, how does the Digital Designs S4 rank amongst those?


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

Just so current owners of the PDX amps aren't made to feel like complete sh** after reading this thread, I used to have a 4.100 and did not notice any significant noise problems.


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## dvsadvocate (Mar 17, 2008)

rain27 said:


> Just so current owners of the PDX amps aren't made to feel like complete sh** after reading this thread, I used to have a 4.100 and did not notice any significant noise problems.


Im running a PDX-5 and no noise problems for me. Been using it since March this year.


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## methmurda (Jan 28, 2008)

not to go back to the PDX thing but a buddy of mine has them in his audi the car comes with a certain level of deadeding from the factory then he dynamatted the **** out of it aaaaaaaaand yeah, ... they hiss. My ed's dont though so im happy. 

p.s. i giggled for about an hour about the cat and the pet door .gif I had to leave the room.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

methmurda said:


> p.s. i giggled for about an hour about the cat and the pet door .gif I had to leave the room.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

methmurda said:


> not to go back to the PDX thing but a buddy of mine has them in his audi the car comes with a certain level of deadeding from the factory then he dynamatted the **** out of it aaaaaaaaand yeah, ... they hiss. My ed's dont though so im happy.
> 
> p.s. i giggled for about an hour about the cat and the pet door .gif I had to leave the room.


How do you know the PDX amps were the cause?


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## lilblkblt04 (Jul 16, 2009)

Alpine's are nice.


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## Redcloud (Feb 5, 2009)

methmurda said:


> not to go back to the PDX thing but a buddy of mine has them in his audi the car comes with a certain level of deadeding from the factory then he dynamatted the **** out of it aaaaaaaaand yeah, ... they hiss. My ed's dont though so im happy.
> 
> p.s. i giggled for about an hour about the cat and the pet door .gif I had to leave the room.


I am currently running the pdx 4.100 and pdx 1.600. When I first put them in the hiss was terrible. I took it to the local audio shop and had them use some device to set the gains and the hiss is gone.

I think I had the gains set to high initially causing the hiss. With that said I am thinking about getting DLS A3 or Audison LRX 2.9 for my 3 way components to see if there is a noticealbe difference in terms of SQ between the pdx.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Everybody is entitled to their opinion.

For my money:

JL slash amps are a great value all around. Small chassis, solid power, excellent versatility. You could buy a couple of these and be set for years.

For good clean POWER day in and day out, Rockford Fosgate Punch amps have always been a favorite of mine. Quality designed & well built, an RF amp has never failed me yet. 

For whatever reason, I have always had an affinity for old-school Soundstream amps --- but in reality I have found them to be just OK from a performance perspective.



Other than that: Linear Power, Zapco, & Zed amps impress me by reputation, but I have yet to try any myself. The so-called elite names such as Brax, Helix, Tru, etc don't appeal to me unless we are talking about competition applications.



At the end of the day, it is a fact that power is power.

Likewise, it is a fact that different amps - by definition - do sound different.

It's all relative anyway. Use what appeals to you, install it properly, and you should be good to go.


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## BTA (Nov 5, 2005)

My PDX amps never hissed.

Learn to set your gains.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

I recently replaced my old JL 500/5, which I loved, with a PDX-5. I was very impressed with the JL's output and low noise floor, so after reading all the complaints about the PDX's, I was a bit worried that I'd be disappointed. I'm not. It sounds great. Noise floor and output are great. FWIW, I am running a balanced signal into the amp--I wonder if any of the noise complaints relate to unbalanced signal runs.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

capnxtreme said:


> I recently replaced my old JL 500/5, which I loved, with a PDX-5. I was very impressed with the JL's output and low noise floor, so after reading all the complaints about the PDX's, I was a bit worried that I'd be disappointed. I'm not. It sounds great. Noise floor and output are great. FWIW, I am running a balanced signal into the amp--I wonder if any of the noise complaints relate to unbalanced signal runs.


I'm curious to know what you're using to run a balanced signal...


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## methmurda (Jan 28, 2008)

rain27 said:


> How do you know the PDX amps were the cause?


Because the amps he had previously didn't hiss and the amps he has now don't.
its funny, I pointed it out to him and he spent a weekend trying to figure out why, he gave up then turned around and bought new ones.


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## silver6 (Nov 11, 2008)

MORE KITTY PICTURES!!!! 

Mike


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## dbest2918 (Dec 28, 2007)

MaXaZoR said:


> Where does DLS fit on that list? Also add A/D/S to the value amps


I saw a badass A/D/S 8 channel in the classified section for a great price.

Oh yea that was my listing.


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## Franklin Stien (Jul 17, 2009)

Never a mention of my F-A-V-O-R-I-T-E SQ amps of the mid to late 90's, the ALWAYS overlooked RadioShack/Optimus amps. The quality of noise potential & groundloop possibilities, are the stuff that legends are made of :laugh:


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## silver6 (Nov 11, 2008)

Rat shack ground loop bad-ass-ness! Late 90's I got a 2CH rat shack amp for free and HOLY GROUND LOOP!!! Yeah...... it SUCKED..... even for free....

Mike


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

silver6 said:


> MORE KITTY PICTURES!!!!
> 
> Mike


I'm too busy


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## BackToStreet (May 25, 2008)

Where is Atana X,A and 4.4


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## Aaron Clinton (Oct 17, 2006)

*From the original post, I think ZED should move up one.*


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## BackToStreet (May 25, 2008)

BackToStreet said:


> Where is Xtant X,A and 4.4



Sorry, Where is Xtant X,A and 4.4


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## Hispls (Mar 12, 2008)

silver6 said:


> MORE KITTY PICTURES!!!!
> 
> Mike













I LOL'd at this thread.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

silver6 said:


> MORE KITTY PICTURES!!!!
> 
> Mike


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## razholio (Apr 15, 2008)

Zed made some variable amps in the past that probably spanned good (USAcoustics) to enthusiast/audiophile (hifonics), but his latest stuff competes with the best. The one review I read on the gladius said it made it into his top-5 list of amps, ever.


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