# Re-branded items



## Vital

Can we make a list of re-branded car audio items?
Amps, speakers, subs.... that are the same inside but have different logos on the outside?


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## gjmallory

Subscribed!

Sent from my phone...


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## captainscarlett

I'm not going for out and out 'internals' and everything, but maybe extend it to companies that have shared technology etc. 

There's this Tru thread going on. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...dustry-dogma/124129-tru-technology-truth.html

Also, wasn't there some sort of collaberation between Genesis amps and DLS amps at one point?


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## stereo_luver

Yep...Imagine that.

Chuck


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## req

Lol in... Hybrid/hivi? 

Hehe ;-)


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## Horsemanwill

ZStat® Car Audio - Class AB 2 & 4 Channel Amplifiers (Older Models)

and powerbass?

and the now ID amps?


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## stopdrpnro

Orion and wcc had a indistinguishable similarities at on point.but a lot of driving products are veey simular under the hood
There's the whole elf/arc/wettsound theard
That's all I can't think of right now #caraudiobrainfart


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## Vital

Apparently Critical Mass is just SERIOUSLY overpriced pos:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/130412-crtical-mass-ripoff.html


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## ChrisB

Vital said:


> Apparently Critical Mass is just SERIOUSLY overpriced pos:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/130412-crtical-mass-ripoff.html


Only thing, I can't say I've seen a generic version of their UL12. Please feel free to share if you find it.


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## adrenalinejunkie

I've always wondered the same. This could get intresting.


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## Fricasseekid

Scribed


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## Ultimateherts

Just go on Alibaba and search you'll see many clones...


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## ChrisB

Ultimateherts said:


> Just go on Alibaba and search you'll see many clones...


Of the UL12? Link please.


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## minbari

its done all the time in alot of industries. dont get the big deal.

mazda tribute is a ford escape
VW minivan is a dodge caravan
Honda passport is an isuzu rodeo


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## Fricasseekid

minbari said:


> its done all the time in alot of industries. dont get the big deal.
> 
> mazda tribute is a ford escape
> VW minivan is a dodge caravan
> Honda passport is an isuzu rodeo


I think perhaps the point is being able to find the same technology somewhere for a better price. That is valuable information.


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## rommelrommel

Were any of those cars retailed for 2-10 times as much as the equivilants?


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## Ultimateherts

ChrisB said:


> Of the UL12? Link please.


Maybe not that sub, but a lot of others


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## GlasSman

req said:


> Lol in... Hybrid/hivi?
> 
> Hehe ;-)


Really?

Never knew that one.


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## GlasSman

Anyone have a link to the Arc/Elf thread?

I remember reading through some of it when it was new but I can't find it right now.


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## Gary S

Here's the deal - for every 100 car audio brands, there are only 3 build houses. But many are built to certain specs and so are slightly - but not largely different. Many products will use "off-the-shelf" parts/chassis that have been used with other brands. And a piece may look the same on the outside, but be totally different on the inside.


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## The Baron Groog

captainscarlett said:


> Also, wasn't there some sort of collaberation between Genesis amps and DLS amps at one point?


Genesis used to make DLS' amps for them, well documented just google it


Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC using Tapatalk


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## yuri

The Baron Groog said:


> Genesis used to make DLS' amps for them, well documented just google it
> 
> 
> Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC using Tapatalk


and sell there own as dls genesis in europe


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## thomasluke

yuri said:


> and sell there own as dls genesis in europe


So what does the genesis retail for?


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## The Baron Groog

Which ones?


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## Woosey

Gary S said:


> Here's the deal - for every 100 car audio brands, there are only 3 build houses. But many are built to certain specs and so are slightly - but not largely different. Many products will use "off-the-shelf" parts/chassis that have been used with other brands. And a piece may look the same on the outside, but be totally different on the inside.


Amen!

Sent from my LT15i using Tapatalk


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## Vital

Arc Audio Black and SB Acoustics

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...396-sb-acoustics-17nrxc35-4-klippel-data.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...udio-black-6-0-midwoofer-klippel-results.html


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## turbo5upra

Vital said:


> Arc Audio Black and SB Acoustics
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...396-sb-acoustics-17nrxc35-4-klippel-data.html
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...udio-black-6-0-midwoofer-klippel-results.html


perfect example right here! slight changes can make or break a driver in a car


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## aV8ter

turbo5upra said:


> perfect example right here! slight changes can make or break a driver in a car




I can't believe people actually pay for that ****. You're giving money to ARC for no reason at all. That money probably goes to paying off that silly truck and boat that ARC puts on every webpage, brochure, and piece of packaging they use....


Open your eyes and find someone who will show you their ARC audio dealer-cost pricing.


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## [email protected]

aV8ter said:


>


I dont get it either :laugh: But I know he paid for the Arc stuff


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## falstaff

Hmmm...


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## turbo5upra

aV8ter said:


> I can't believe people actually pay for that ****. You're giving money to ARC for no reason at all. That money probably goes to paying off that silly truck and boat that ARC puts on every webpage, brochure, and piece of packaging they use....
> 
> 
> Open your eyes and find someone who will show you their ARC audio dealer-cost pricing.



I know what dealer cost is I can do simple math ;-). My g/f's car ran both the SB and black mid- which one has the blackened coils and the former that ejected out of the gap? (give ya a hint it's not the car driver) 


Similar drivers yes- one is meant for more abuse. 

I don't need to justify to myself what I spent since I currently own both drivers. I know which I prefer from personal experience.


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## aV8ter

Coming from the exact same parts bin, and from the exact same manufacture is more than being a "similar" driver. It has an arc sticker on its ass and supposedly a "stiffer and more rouboust" surround. Neither of those qualities justify the 400% price increase.


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## turbo5upra

Guessing you've never picked them up* since the basket and motor arent the same


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

GlasSman said:


> Really?
> 
> Never knew that one.


Its not correct, Hybrid's speakers are not copies of anything HiVi makes, or anyone else for that matter.


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## ChrisB

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Its not correct, Hybrid's speakers are not copies of anything HiVi makes, or anyone else for that matter.


I thought HiVi was just Hybrid's build house Then again, I don't see any HiVi drivers with inverted surrounds.:laugh:


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## aV8ter

ChrisB said:


> I thought HiVi was just Hybrid's build house Then again, I don't see any HiVi drivers with inverted surrounds.:laugh:


I thought the same...

Zhongshan Hivi Research Electronic - Supplier Profile / Detailed Company Information, Imports & Exports

http://www.importgenius.com/importers/hybrid-audio-technologies


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## The Baron Groog

lol-nice website!


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## Vital

aV8ter said:


> I thought the same...
> 
> Zhongshan Hivi Research Electronic - Supplier Profile / Detailed Company Information, Imports & Exports
> 
> Hybrid Audio Technologies - Importer Profile / Detailed Company Information, Imports & Exports


F-ing awesome!!!


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## aV8ter

The Baron Groog said:


> lol-nice website!


It is interesting. ARC and JL can be found on there too.


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## The Baron Groog

Post the links up


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## aV8ter

The Baron Groog said:


> Post the links up


I'm not willing to pay to see more, we all could have guessed this.

Arc Audio - Importer Profile / Detailed Company Information, Imports & Exports


JL is all over the map. I have a feeling they are mainly souring parts, not completed products.

Hencho en mexico!

Jl Audio,inc. - Importer Profile / Detailed Company Information, Imports & Exports


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## Mic10is

aV8ter said:


> I'm not willing to pay to see more, we all could have guessed this.
> 
> Arc Audio - Importer Profile / Detailed Company Information, Imports & Exports
> 
> 
> JL is all over the map. I have a feeling they are mainly souring parts, not completed products.
> 
> Hencho en mexico!
> 
> Jl Audio,inc. - Importer Profile / Detailed Company Information, Imports & Exports


The Arc Ubuy relationship has been known since Arc started in 2000.nothing new there.the JL one. If you read it is just speaker grills and misc stuff.no speakers


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## thehatedguy

I think the JL amps are designed in Arizona.


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## adrenalinejunkie

thehatedguy said:


> I think the JL amps are designed in Arizona.



Possibly, my slash amplifier was repaired there. Well, that's where it was shipped to.


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## turbo5upra

:lurk::z:


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

ChrisB said:


> I thought HiVi was just Hybrid's build house Then again, I don't see any HiVi drivers with inverted surrounds.:laugh:


Quite possible. But a build house is different than rebranding, which is what I thought the purpose of this thread was.

A build house is like me designing the steering column extension I need, and then taking it to someone with the capability to build it, and selling a few of them. Its my design, but I had someone with the capabilities to build it do the actual manufacturing.

Rebranding is if I found a company that already built a steering column extension, bought a bunch of them wholesale, and then slapped my name on them and sold them for retail as my own design.


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## turbo5upra

Would the steering colum be sold as made in America if you designed it and had the product shipped in?

I don't mind buying rebadged or variants if I'm told x made this for me and this is what we did to make it our own.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

That depends. Was the whole product made overseas, or just some of its parts. There was a post years ago by Scott stating that they get parts from a few different places. Its a little more gray than it is black and white. Honestly, any company using neo motors is getting at least some of its parts from china.

If thats the case, its not much different than AE, which has their baskets cast overseas, and then final machined here.


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## ChaunB3400

lot of copycats


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## The Tube Doctor

aV8ter said:


> I thought the same...
> 
> Zhongshan Hivi Research Electronic - Supplier Profile / Detailed Company Information, Imports & Exports
> 
> Hybrid Audio Technologies - Importer Profile / Detailed Company Information, Imports & Exports


Having worked in speaker manufacturing, I can tell you with absolute certainty that most small-medium scale manufacturers will source components from around the globe. Those links from ImportGenius are not a definitive indication that Hybrid has their speakers built by HiVi Research.

Briefly; we would have magnets from either TDK (Japan) or Supergauss (South America, can't remember which country)
Frames would come from Merit (Taiwan) and voice coils would be made to spec by whichever company could reliably meet the chief engineer's criteria.
Likewise with dampers and terminals.
Cones were from Japan on most of the subwoofers, while the mids and tweeters had their parts come from other, specialist suppliers.
Even the different assembly adhesives for a single model could come from a variety of countries. 

The speaker company, BTW, was AVI. Built in Canada, with parts from around the world.


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## turbo5upra

Not shocking... So what you're saying is a part does not a whole make?


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## Chaos

Gary S said:


> Here's the deal - for every 100 car audio brands, there are only 3 build houses. But many are built to certain specs and so are slightly - but not largely different. Many products will use "off-the-shelf" parts/chassis that have been used with other brands. And a piece may look the same on the outside, but be totally different on the inside.


Exactly. This is true of many, many modern electronic gizmos - not just car audio.

Really, all you can do is either try a particular product yourself and make up your own mind about it, or rely on nebulous & biased reviews found on the interweb.


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## AAAAAAA

I think most companies rebrand so it would be easier to go at it the other way around, what brands can actually afford to be unique, to have actual engineers and research departments etc.

First bet would be the biggest established companies such as
Alpine
Rockford
JBL\infinity
Pioneer
Kenwood\JVC
Sony
MTX
Kicker
JL

And then some of the boutique higher end brands that we know… 
Zapco
Mcintosh
Brax
focal
But then some of them do have rebadges as well like hertz and of course critical mass.


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## Vital

PPI 900.4
POLK AUDIO D4000.4 
NVX Audio JAD800.4

Not sure which one is a copy of which but all 3 are identical.
Just looking at "outside" pics you can clearly see the resemblance and I also have pics of D4000.4 and 900.4's guts if needed - same exact amps.


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## 07azhhr

AAAAAAA said:


> I think most companies rebrand so it would be easier to go at it the other way around, what brands can actually afford to be unique, to have actual engineers and research departments etc.
> 
> First bet would be the biggest established companies such as
> Alpine
> Rockford
> JBL\infinity
> Pioneer
> Kenwood\JVC
> Sony
> MTX
> Kicker
> JL
> 
> And then some of the boutique higher end brands that we know…
> Zapco
> Mcintosh
> Brax
> focal
> But then some of them do have rebadges as well like hertz and of course critical mass.


Not sure who is the origional design company but MTX has line of amps that are the same as Critical Mass, Massive's N and NX line and America Bass and another that I cannot remember right now.


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## 07azhhr

Vital said:


> PPI 900.4
> POLK AUDIO D4000.4
> NVX Audio JAD800.4
> 
> Not sure which one is a copy of which but all 3 are identical.
> Just looking at "outside" pics you can clearly see the resemblance and I also have pics of D4000.4 and 900.4's guts if needed - same exact amps.


There is also the Hertz and Nakamichi amps that are using the same boards as the ones you listed. Also Epsilon is also trying to use these boards for SoundStream as well as PPI. But it is looking like there might not be the capacity at the buildhouse to keep up with all these companies right now.


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## Vital

Would you have exact model numbers for Hertz and Nakamichi?


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## GlasSman

07azhhr said:


> There is also the Hertz and Nakamichi amps that are using the same boards as the ones you listed. Also Epsilon is also trying to use these boards for SoundStream as well as PPI. But it is looking like there might not be the capacity at the buildhouse to keep up with all these companies right now.


Which lines from Soundstream and PPI.

Also what is your source for this info....internet or industry insider?


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## 07azhhr

GlasSman said:


> Which lines from Soundstream and PPI.
> 
> Also what is your source for this info....internet or industry insider?


 
The PPI that the OP listed and aI own one of is the Phantom 900.4 while the SS's Tarantula Nano series that has not had any actual amps available for sale. 

Since the SS Nanos are not out yet we can only go by size and wattages as published by Epsilon themselves. So we can not confirm by seeing the boards yet but there have been several threads discussing this and Grizz Archer, SS rep, has never popped in to say that they were not the same boards. 

So far I know we have pics of the Hertz, Polk and PPI's and possibly the NVX. Not sure about the Nak so it is more just speculation based on size and numbers and the body that is the same body that the NVX's are using. Still could be different though.


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## 14642

I've said it before and i'll say it again. Just because amps are built in the same facory doesn't mean they're the same amp. If you open it up and all the boards and the components are EXACTLY the same, then they're the same. 

When you buy products, you also help to pay for the overhead that every company has in order to bring products to market. If I go to that supplier (and I know exactly who it is) and I buy the same amp and I sell it direct to a bunch of you by putting an ad on craigslist or posting something here, I have no overhead. If I go to that factory and buy an amp, hire a bunch of reps, sell it to a bunch of installing retailers who have real stores and real employees, guess what? The price is higher. Does that mean you've been duped? 

So...the next time you shop for an amp check out real brands that make a performance contribution to the products you buy if performance is what you care about. If you don't care about performance and it's more important that some rapper endorses your sub amp, then you'll pay for that. If neither of those matter and all you care about is price or you want to be in the amp business, type "Car amp" into the search box on www.alibaba.com


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## ChrisB

07azhhr said:


> The PPI that the OP listed and aI own one of is the Phantom 900.4 while the SS's Tarantula Nano series that has not had any actual amps available for sale.
> 
> Since the SS Nanos are not out yet we can only go by size and wattages as published by Epsilon themselves. So we can not confirm by seeing the boards yet but there have been several threads discussing this and Grizz Archer, SS rep, has never popped in to say that they were not the same boards.
> 
> So far I know we have pics of the Hertz, Polk and PPI's and possibly the NVX. Not sure about the Nak so it is more just speculation based on size and numbers and the body that is the same body that the NVX's are using. Still could be different though.


Well, I doubt you will see Grizz Archer talking about SS anytime soon since his company laid him off at the end of June. Check here for more: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/industry-shop-talk/132359-grizz-has-left-building.html


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## 07azhhr

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I've said it before and i'll say it again. Just because amps are built in the same facory doesn't mean they're the same amp. If you open it up and all the boards and the components are EXACTLY the same, then they're the same.
> 
> When you buy products, you also help to pay for the overhead that every company has in order to bring products to market. If I go to that supplier (and I know exactly who it is) and I buy the same amp and I sell it direct to a bunch of you by putting an ad on craigslist or posting something here, I have no overhead. If I go to that factory and buy an amp, hire a bunch of reps, sell it to a bunch of installing retailers who have real stores and real employees, guess what? The price is higher. Does that mean you've been duped?
> 
> So...the next time you shop for an amp check out real brands that make a performance contribution to the products you buy if performance is what you care about. If you don't care about performance and it's more important that some rapper endorses your sub amp, then you'll pay for that. If neither of those matter and all you care about is price or you want to be in the amp business, type "Car amp" into the search box on www.alibaba.com


I should have clarified that everyone I posted about are sharing boards but most are using different spec'd internal components mounted in the same locations on these shared boards. The pics of the boards from all these amps show this. So not exactly rebranding but certainly can see the use of the same boards. 




ChrisB said:


> Well, I doubt you will see Grizz Archer talking about SS anytime soon since his company laid him off at the end of June. Check here for more: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/industry-shop-talk/132359-grizz-has-left-building.html


Well that is a bummer for him. I hope he finds work soon.


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## Hillbilly SQ

No matter how different the components on a shared board are you'll still have that group of ignorant jackasses saying they're the same because they use the same heatsink and same basic layout. To some tighter tolerance parts are worth the extra money. To others the cheapest parts inside an amp is good enough. Then a couple years later said amp bites the dust while the "same" more expensive amp is still going. Would you rather buy 10 cheap amps with bottom of the barrel parts for $200 each or one top notch amp for $800 over the same time period? I personally don't mind paying for good quality. They reliably power my system and it sounds great. Knowing wtf I'm doing when it comes to tuning helps some too.


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## Ultimateherts

Hillbilly SQ said:


> No matter how different the components on a shared board are you'll still have that group of ignorant jackasses saying they're the same because they use the same heatsink and same basic layout. To some tighter tolerance parts are worth the extra money. To others the cheapest parts inside an amp is good enough. Then a couple years later said amp bites the dust while the "same" more expensive amp is still going. Would you rather buy 10 cheap amps with bottom of the barrel parts for $200 each or one top notch amp for $800 over the same time period? I personally don't mind paying for good quality. They reliably power my system and it sounds great. Knowing wtf I'm doing when it comes to tuning helps some too.


You can buy good quality at a cheap price... Know what your needs are and also I don't spend a fortune and have never had an amp die on me!!!


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## crimson_stallion

turbo5upra said:


> Guessing you've never picked them up* since the basket and motor arent the same


Umm...yeah, they are

In fact even a local ARC Audio representative confirmed that the basket is the same. 

But of course you will believe it's different because you spent 5x more for it - your eyes see what you want them too. 

As for the the suspension, both drivers were tested right here on this site in the klippel section. Objective tests indicated that the two drivers were practically identical - any differences in TS specs and any physical changes were minimal. 

Chances are your SB driver died simply out of bad luck, or maybe it was set up differently. I've had cheap products die and expensive products die - sometimes it's just the luck of the draw.


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## cobraa

how about Soundstream? is it real stuff since its made in china?


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## rton20s

You mean like the majority of brands in car audio today? Almost everything is made "overseas" somewhere. Soundstream does share a lot of their product line with other Epsilon brands, and shared boards and other components with other brands outside the umbrella of their parent company.


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## ChrisB

Hillbilly SQ said:


> *No matter how different the components on a shared board are you'll still have that group of ignorant jackasses saying they're the same because they use the same heatsink and same basic layout.*


Like you calling your Zuki amp a Brax?:laugh:


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## tibug

ChrisB said:


> Like you calling your Zuki amp a Brax?:laugh:


Lawl.

 I have no idea what Chris is talking about.


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## turbo5upra

crimson_stallion said:


> Umm...yeah, they are
> 
> In fact even a local ARC Audio representative confirmed that the basket is the same.
> 
> But of course you will believe it's different because you spent 5x more for it - your eyes see what you want them too.
> 
> As for the the suspension, both drivers were tested right here on this site in the klippel section. Objective tests indicated that the two drivers were practically identical - any differences in TS specs and any physical changes were minimal.
> 
> Chances are your SB driver died simply out of bad luck, or maybe it was set up differently. I've had cheap products die and expensive products die - sometimes it's just the luck of the draw.


A rep checked it out? Ohboy' must be true... The motors arent the same. Have YOU set them side by side? And the best part- At first I didn't pay a dime for them- they were on loan from a dealer for a few weeks until I decided I wanted them.

Ps I don't let my wallet listen for me as you might... I'm running a 3 way front stage that cost me a total of 120 bucks with tax. If its cheap and sounds good ill admit it- if its expensive and sounds like crap ill sell it.


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## PPI_GUY

Interesting that we haven't seen copies of JL amps anywhere. I'm specifically talking about their HD, "slash" and XD series. Maybe they have some sort of agreement with their buildhouses that the designs are proprietary? 
Trying to think of any examples of rebranded JBL amps and can't think of any of those either.
I could be wrong on both accounts however.


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## turbo5upra

Jl as far as I know are produced in house-


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## PPI_GUY

turbo5upra said:


> Jl as far as I know are produced in house-


I think the XD series have "Made In China" printed on them. I could be wrong, it's been over a year since I had one in my hands. 
Maybe the HD's are made in the US?

edit- just did a search and JL's amps are made in China and Korea per Manville Smith.


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## DAT

Sub'd.


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## AAAAAAA

I would imagine that the compagnies (alpine, pioneer, jbl, JL, etc) that we don't see amp clones are because

a) Those compagnies created and own the design of the amplifier
b) Those compagnies own a build house
c) Both

If you see "cloned" amps it is because it is the build houses design that others can purchase and have tweaked (or not) to resell under their brand name.


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## Richv72

How come you never see good brands sharing the same build house? You could be like "damn my audison is nothing more then a rebadged sinfoni".


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## The Baron Groog

AAAAAAA said:


> I would imagine that the compagnies (alpine, pioneer, jbl, JL, etc) that we don't see amp clones are because
> 
> a) Those compagnies created and own the design of the amplifier
> b) Those compagnies own a build house
> c) Both
> 
> If you see "cloned" amps it is because it is the build houses design that others can purchase and have tweaked (or not) to resell under their brand name.


It does happen with the big guys, was at CES in 2004 with Pioneer when one of the reps spotted their speakers on some little Chinese stand...


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## Richv72

The Baron Groog said:


> It does happen with the big guys, was at CES in 2004 with Pioneer when one of the reps spotted their speakers on some little Chinese stand...


That may be an actual counterfiet and not a rebadge. rebadge is the same thing with a different name, counterfeit is something that looks like the same thing but is a fake.


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## 98koukile

I've heard that some CDT speakers are rebranded and inflated from some well known DIY speakers but they do add a nice grill and such for the extra $130


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## chefhow

I have seen MANY speakers here that are nothing more than rebadged midbass drivers across 3-4 brands and its obvious that they are.


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## subwoofery

Not rebranded but this amp seriously looks like one popular one  









Kelvin


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## highly

subwoofery said:


> Not rebranded but this amp seriously looks like one popular one
> 
> Kelvin


No kidding.


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## ErinH

highly said:


> No kidding.


x2.

It doesn't even look like they put any effort in to an original design. They could have at least made it all black.


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## Woosey

chefhow said:


> I have seen MANY speakers here that are nothing more than rebadged midbass drivers across 3-4 brands and its obvious that they are.


By looks or by specs?


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## Richv72

Alpine f1 6.5" and scanspeak 6.5" look the same.


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## Mic10is

Richv72 said:


> Alpine f1 6.5" and scanspeak 6.5" look the same.


bc they essentially are the same. Only difference is alpine used a weather treatment on the cone but they are Scan Speak Revelators.
Genesis Absolutes were the same thing, in fact when I was sponsored by Genesis and asked for back up pairs, They were sent to me in the original Scan Speak Box


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