# LPG 25NFA + Seas CA18 = Best Compact <$200 Component Speaker "Set"?



## shinjohn (Feb 8, 2006)

(warning.. this is really long winded..)

First, a couple of notes...

* About me: A DIYer for most things I do, and an enthusiast for car, home and pro audio. I used to DJ in a former life, and designed all active, horn loaded speaker systems for use by the company (seems like eons ago). I'm glad I stumbled across this forum. I'm learning alot, and hope some of the things I write about can help others too.

* I've attempted to document the install process of my latest car audio project, a 2005 Subaru STI here at: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3400

Described here are my subjective evaluations and comments as I work to develop this vehicle's sound system.

The "system" as it stands today:
- Pioneer DEH-P3600 head unit: cheap ~$150 CD head, very representative of what the greater masses would buy when they want a "new radio". We recycled this piece from his prior vehicle as a starting point. The plan is to replace it eventually with the Alpine IVA-W200/701 combo w/ amps.
- Sound deadened front doors: thanks to Rick, we've installed Raammat on the inner and outer skins, as well as ensolite foam on the inside of the door. We're moving on to finish the foam, and get other critical areas of the vehicle deadened next.....
- LPG 25NFAs and Seas CA18RLY installed in the stock front door locations. LPG's with a 6dB/oct passive HP @ 3500Hz, no crossover on the Seas. There is no padding on the tweeters. All run off the Pioneer head's internal power.
- Sub is built, sub amp is acquired, but neither is installed yet. All in due time.

It may seem strange to start at this point with this install (given that funds are not a limiting issue), but I wanted to do 3 specific things:
1) Answer the question: does DIY make sense for the average Joe who can't afford all active channels? In other words, can a Joe get a head unit, some speakers (and crossover components) and put something together that beats what the big-box retailers offer at the same price?
2) Establish a starting point for myself to have discourse with the more experienced DIYers here. Having not heard any of DIY components frequently talked about here, I wanted to try something first that MANY people have tried and are familiar with. This gives me a baseline to speak and move from. It also brings everyone else's opinions into clearer relative focus.
3) Show my buddy how different factors (sound deadening, head unit, speakers, amps) all can impact sound "quality" of a system. He can then form opinions on what variables made the most difference in his mind. (I already have my opinions based on my own experience)

OK now, so on to the eval... I will give my opinions relative to my experience with lots of retail-market car audio, and my extensive experience with Dynaudio 2-way setups (which I use in my personal vehicles). I think Dyn is as good a reference as any because many car audio enthuisasts have heard them and they are at least (generally) fairly well regarded.....

LPG 25NFA 
Wow. What a tweeter for the $$. I got these off Damian (AzGrower) for a good price and they were well worth it (Thanks D!). They are compact (shallow depth), which allows flexible placement, so I couldn't see these being a problem to install in just about any car. Build quality is good, but the sound really is the most impressive thing.

My Breakdown of Positives and Negatives:
+ Really nice top end extension and detail. Lots of sparkle and shimmer. My buddy says "crisp", I would say "accurate and detailed in the very highest octaves." 
+ Smooth, generally non-fatiguing sound. Turn them up and they don't scream like most mass market car audio tweeters.
- Relative to the Dyn MD100, it doesn't play very low (I tried these without a crossover too)
- As Nguyen notes, I do think they get a tad spitty at high volume. Higher crossover points and/or moderate volume levels fix this issue.

My general assessment is that for the $$ they are fantastic. On a value basis (cost/performance), they would clearly rank higher than the Dyn MD100 or any other car audio tweeter I've heard so far. However, I still think there are characteristics of the Dyn tweeter I like more, esp. on classical music. Dyn MD100 doesn't sparkle on the top end like the LPG, but for harpsichord, violin, and strings, they render a higher level of detail and transparency in the lower/mid treble. I tried the LPGs in one of my cars head to head with the MD100, and reaffirmed this difference. This is where personal preference, music taste, etc.. really comes into play. If I were to listen to "ear candy" music more, the LPG would be preferable. On the other hand, I think the MD100s can get harsh at high volume. My high-SPL days are over though, so this isn't too important to me.

Seas CA18RLY 
First, I want to say that this driver was chosen for several specific reasons:
1) Good match to the LPGs, or so it's been said.
2) Smooth response, with controlled roll off on the top end, allowing it to potentially be run w/o a xover
3) Shallowest mounting depth of the Seas 7" line. The STI has VERY LITTLE space in the door for speaker depth. This was a VERY important consideration. Otherwise, I'd have prefered the RNX motor, or better yet, the W18NX.
4) Peter (alphakenny1) sold these to me through the forum, and he's even local. Thanks dude!

Assessment:
+ Very neutral sound, with a distinct lack of coloration. The speaker didn't seem to impart it's own tonal characteristic on the music, like alot of drivers do.
+ Smooth, extended, high end frequency response. No harsh cone modes, or other resonances that need to be filtered out. In a car door with no crossover, they sounded great!
+ Firm, respectable midbass response
- Lack of midrange detail
- Not as "snappy" or "fast" as some other midbasses I've heard

Overall, I really liked these drivers. Who says paper is "cheap" sounding? 
I think the strength of these speakers lies in their neutrality and ability to render music in a way that sounds warm and non-offensive. A good amount of detail comes out, but never in a way that is too forward or in your face. Laid back and versatile would be the best way for me to describe them. These guys do their job, and do it well. 

My biggest complaint was midrange detail. I found male vocals such as Josh Groban to be slightly lacking with these. I didn't find this to be very noticable with music such as pop and rock, so YMMV. These speakers are not door rattlers either. Midbass was very good and balanced, but not as snappy like say a Focal Polykev (Power) mid or some metal cone home speakers I've heard. The RLY motor has limited excursion, so no surprise that their ultimate output capability isn't super high either. Is it quite enough for the majority of people? I would definitely say yes.

To compare to say a Dyn MW160, the CA18s are more efficient and seem to play a little higher in frequency. Midbass is tighter on the Dyn, but not by much. I think the Dyn is a little more revealing in the midrange too. Given the price delta, the Seas is the clear value winner. I wouldn't swap my Dyns for the CA18s though.  Maybe the W18NX.. 

Performance as a Component Set 
I'll wrap this up by saying this much. My expectations were pretty low when I did this "experiment". A couple of tweeters, a couple of woofers, a couple of caps, and about a day's install effort seemed to be worth it to get a baseline. My friend and I critically auditioned the system, and both of us were thoroughly impressed. This basic system, simply put, sounds great. It's the best I've ever heard with a budget roughly of:

$150 head unit
$70 tweeters (used, incl. ship)
$75 woofers (used, local pickup)
$5 for some capacitors


Yowsers. You can't buy ANYTHING in the mass car audio market (that I'm aware of) that will match the performance of this setup. For less that $200 brand new, you can get the speakers and crossover components shipped straight to you. Forget the cheapie big-box brands. There's no comparison to me. I'd also say that this setup gives most $300-$800 (retail priced) components a thrashing, or at least a hard run for their money. Of course, I say this with the caveat that this is based on my own audio-value system and preferences.

Finally, if there are other newbies who want to try the same components or something similar (cheapie, passive setup), some words of advice:
- Invest in the door deadening. It'll hugely improve the performance of your midbass drivers.
- Take your time on the install. It's all in the details, and if you DIY, that's really the fun of it.
- KISS: if this is your first time, go with a simple crossover on the tweeter like I did and get a variety of resistors so you can attenuate the tweeter to your tastes. The irony was that my buddy really likes a bright top end, so he wanted the tweeter unpadded in his setup. I must admit I was hesitant, but it works OK because the tweeter is pretty smooth. If I were to listen to it every day, I'd have knocked the tweeter level down with a ~3 ohm power resistor BEFORE the capacitor (keeps same crossover slope).
- Bear in mind that if you had 4 ohm speakers before, you will not be used to the high gains (levels) you will have to crank your head unit to get the volume up on these 8 ohm drivers. We were able to crank the Pioneer to it's top volume level without clipping on some playback material. This shouldn't be a big deal honestly, because for most it will be plenty loud. Or, just get outboard amps.  

Whew. I think I've had it for one typing session. Hope this wasn't too boring. Good luck all, and of course questions, comments, & suggestions are always welcome.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

wow. i agree on most aspects of the review. 

i suggest getting more power to those seas. i had them running off of 70 watts and man the midbass had some authority. since its only HU power, the seas are probably getting like 8-12 watts. try 70, probably will make a big difference . 

anyways nice review and good luck w/ the rest of his setup.


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

Glad you like the tweeters mane!


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## toolfan91 (Dec 7, 2005)

Great review! I might run that component set in the girlfriend's car... 

I use to work at a shop that pushed JL/Focal a BUNCH, and the head installer was flat out amazed at how good my setup sounded(CD8454/Vifa MGs/MaxFi MFDT30neos/RF 360a2 to mids/MTX 8302 to tweets). He always thought it was comical on how my setup sounded better than his $950(compared to my $220 comp set) Focal 165k2Ps off a JL 300/2. Gotta love DIY!


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

J/w really why you opted on the RLY over the RNX.......RNX is supposed to have more midbass as i've heard.....but i can't say as i havn't used the RLY's.

I also agree on the power.....i have 45 on mine, and they rock buddy, i get more panel resonations out of my midbasses than my subs....well at proximity.


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## jay (Sep 12, 2005)

shinjohn said:


> 3) Shallowest mounting depth of the Seas 7" line. The STI has VERY LITTLE space in the door for speaker depth. This was a VERY important consideration. Otherwise, I'd have prefered the RNX motor, or better yet, the W18NX.


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## low (Jun 2, 2005)

sounds like an awesome combination!


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## niceguy (Mar 12, 2006)

demon....he mentioned that it was due to the rly being the most shallow of the Seas drivers....


Jeremy


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## shinjohn (Feb 8, 2006)

demon2091tb said:


> J/w really why you opted on the RLY over the RNX.......RNX is supposed to have more midbass as i've heard.....but i can't say as i havn't used the RLY's.


Turns out that STI<>GTO did the RNX in his STI. (where there's a will, there's a way) He spaced his window track back to make a little more clearance. Neither I nor my bud was comfortable with doing this on his practically new $30K car.



> I also agree on the power.....i have 45 on mine, and they rock buddy, i get more panel resonations out of my midbasses than my subs....well at proximity.


So I definitely appreciate this commentary, by both you and Peter. True that I've only heard these with a few measly watts of power in the car. I did listen to them hooked up to my home Adcom a little bit, but this was without a baffle, so it isn't really fair for me to say.

I would say that I am probably projecting a fair bit, based on my personal experience/expectations, as well as my observations on the motor design of the driver. (not as nice as the RNX or some other "long throw" woofers) Once I get some more power in the vehicle, I will definitely report back. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly eat the words, "not door rattlers"  

As I think more (and continue to type faster than I can think....) I would allow room for the possibility that my perception of the "snappiness" of mid bass could be very well related to the cheap onboard amp of the head unit. For sure slew rate in the very least would have a huge impact on this characteristic........

So, I promise to report back more after I get some power in and progress the system design. I hope everyone is patient with me as I learn, and keeps the commentary coming. It helps me immensely.

In that light, here's a hint on what future plans hold, in sequence order.

1) finish sound deading
2) power/distribution/wiring/big 3, etc...
3) install sub amp and subwoofer (sitting in my garage right now )
4) install front stage amp maintaining passive setup (amp still TBD)
5) replace cheapie head with Alpine IVA-W200 (keep running passive and analog signal from the head unit)
6) install Alpine PXA-H701 processor, going fully active (tweak/tune like mad)
7) reconsider speaker choices if my bud so desires
8) rip everything out and start all over? (j/k) 

I think going through this process will help educate me, my bud, and hopefully some other newbies to the world of DIYMA.


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## mr tibbs (Dec 18, 2005)

^^^You only think your kinnind on #8, but just you wait! You'll get the bug just like the rest of us!!


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## shinjohn (Feb 8, 2006)

Update...

Thought I'd chime back in on this review now that we are on step #6 of the list I originally posted on 6/2. So...

The current system is comprised of:
- Alpine W200/H701
- Alpine PDX4.150 running 4 channel mode to LPG 25NFAs & Seas CA18RLY
- Alpine MRD-M1005 running (3) Arc 10D4s in ~1.5ft^3 sealed
- Raammat & Ensolite deadening throughout
- Stinger wiring and accessories

The old saying about your system only being as good as the weakest link was fairly true in this case. In my above reviews, I think that the deck power and lower quality sources did limit the potential of these speaker components. I'm more impressed with the capabilities of these speakers now with proper power and a minimal amount of tuning work. The articulation and clarity of the speakers definitely came up a few notches with the better source input and amplification. Also, their ability to play LOUD is apparent with the PDX4.150 running these puppies. Not much needs to be said beyond that on SPL.
Going back over my comments though, although I am more impressed, I'm still left with the same overall impressions. I think the weaknesses I pointed out are still there, as are the strengths.

Going back to the LPG, I think they are wonderful, but I kept having to push their crossover frequency higher and higher to keep them sounding really smooth and clear. I so wanted them to play lower for alot of the music I enjoy listening to (classical, acoustic). But geez, this is still a mighty fine tweeter, esp. for the money. I have a pair of the Seas Neos (metal) also and I think I still favor the LPGs over them....

Going back to the Seas CA18RLY, I am still left wanting just a little more in the midrange clarity, although I still cannot believe how good the sound is for so little money. I would gladly take these midbasses over any of the mass market/big box car audio midbasses available today.

About the midbass, output, and "snappiness"..... I think with proper power, these speakers have really great output capability. I take back the comment about them not being door "rattlers"; they get loud, no doubt. However, without any EQing or tweaking, I still stand behind my original assessment on the snappiness. To me this seems to be more of a system design/tuning issue than anything else. My thought is that I'm used to working with car audio drivers that seem to work better "out of the box" in IB door applications, instead of home drivers that often work optimally in smaller seal volumes, or in vented applications. Give me a higher Qts midbass in a car door and I'd probably think it was better out of the box than this one. Having said that, with a good processor, I think you can tweak this issue out, but I haven't had time with the vehicle to do that yet.

So here's the rub. Once you head down the DIY path, I think you basically put yourself in a position where a very "simple" setup is no longer very optimal. Using a processor with lots of tuning flexibility becomes a necessity, because most DIY drivers will need some help to sound "right" in a car. Now this arguement could also be made for car-audio optimized components, however my experience (at least with equipment such as Dynaudio) leads me to believe you'll have less issues to "tweak".

So where does that leave me overall? I'm generally very impressed with these speakers. So much so that I think I would recommend these drivers to anyone looking for a very high performing set of speakers at a reasonable price.

I had one board participant PM me about the Dynaudio MW160 vs. the Seas CA18, asking which I prefer. Having had more time to evaluate the CA18, this is a tough choice, because the performance of the CA18 is so high for the dollar amount, and I would say is close to on par with the MW160. 

So let me summarize it this way: I wouldn't go out and replace my MW160s with CA18s at this point, but if I were doing a new system, I'd probably purchase a set of Seas drivers over the Dyns. (though I know Dyn is due to release their new line in the not-too-distant future) Given the price differential, I'd probably look farther up the Seas line to the Nextel series, personally though. In the end, it's all about budget, and in the $50 per driver price range, I'd say these are hard to beat for overall performance.

Hope this helps some newbies out there.


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## mk1982 (Jul 3, 2005)

that's a great review shinjohn, what did you end up using for your crossover points and did you bandpass the midbass or just highpass it letting it roll off naturally.

my second question, can't quite work out which driver you think plays 'lower' (frequencies). the mw160 or ca18rly ? the ca18rly is much deeper/larger driver so i'm expecting excels at hitting lower notes. 

really impressed by the mw160 !! many people have said including npdang that the tweeter is really what brings the dynaudio 2-way component set down, but i didnt know the midbass was good as you describe it to be


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## shinjohn (Feb 8, 2006)

mk1982 said:


> that's a great review shinjohn, what did you end up using for your crossover points and did you bandpass the midbass or just highpass it letting it roll off naturally.
> 
> my second question, can't quite work out which driver you think plays 'lower' (frequencies). the mw160 or ca18rly ? the ca18rly is much deeper/larger driver so i'm expecting excels at hitting lower notes.
> 
> really impressed by the mw160 !! many people have said including npdang that the tweeter is really what brings the dynaudio 2-way component set down, but i didnt know the midbass was good as you describe it to be


The midbass is bandpassed. Crossover fs are 80Hz HP @ 30dB/oct and (IIRC) right about 3.5kHz LP @ 12dB/oct. This allows the midbass to reach up a bit higher in the midrange...

I think the MW160 *out of the box*, without tuning, installed in a sealed up door sounds more balanced and has "better" (I perceive as slightly faster) midbass than the CA18. The MW160 though runs out of steam fairly quickly when pushed hard. On the other hand, with some EQ/tweaking of the CA18RLY, I think you'll get more low end output from it, and it's performance in other regards will not be far off the MW160. Since you are specifically seeking more bass performance, I would say go with the Seas over the Dyn so long as you can tune it to your liking with EQ. If you can somehow fit a driver with an RNX motor in your vehicle, even better!


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## mk1982 (Jul 3, 2005)

thanks for that. im just suprised that the low end output difference between mw160 and ca18rly isn't that massive. shinjohn, your original system ran the tweeter off the headunit at 6db is that correct ? what frequency did u set it to there ?


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## shinjohn (Feb 8, 2006)

mk1982 said:


> thanks for that. im just suprised that the low end output difference between mw160 and ca18rly isn't that massive. shinjohn, your original system ran the tweeter off the headunit at 6db is that correct ? what frequency did u set it to there ?


I'm not 100% sure, but I think it ended up around 4kHz, but I forgot the slope. I'll have to double check with my buddy (it's his friend's daily driver) and report back.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Now that I have had some proper time to mess around with this setup I think I can add some review information to this thread. First off, I am using the *LPG 25nfa* with the *Seas CA18RNX* instead of the CA18RLY. The RNX I believe has a little more low end output due to the motor having extended excursion but as far as quality go they are probably very similar and anyone considering the RLY must also consider the RNX since a pair will only cost an additional $20 provided you have the mounting depth.

*System details*
Speakers were installed in my 2006 Mazdaspeed6 sedan. Tweeters were placed in custom angled sail panels so they pointed about 6" in front of the nose of the opposite passenger. Woofers were installed in stock door locations on a 1/2" MDF baffle. Raammat BXT and ensolite was applied to the inner and outer door skins as well as the backside of the door panel. Tweeters receive power from 2 channels of a DLS A8 (40x4 @ 4ohms) while woofers receive power from 2 channels of a DLS A5 (85x2 @ 4ohms). A PPI DCX-730 was used for tuning and the factory Bose head unit was used for a source (head unit has 2v pre-outs that normally go to a Bose amp).

*LPG 25NFA tweeters*
These are great! I have absolutely no complaints about them. If you listen to classical music you can almost get away with a 2KHz crossover point but for rock and other loud music I found 3KHz was the best spot to match up with the CA18. These tweeters don't sizzle or spark, they just play naturally. They have less detail than my DLS Ir1 tweeters but the detail is not lost, but rather smoothed out for more pleasant listening. For the price, I would definitely purchase them again.

Full range response in my car w/o any tuning:









*Seas CA18RNX woofers*
I'll admit that after the initial install I was not happy with these. I had come from a DLS Iridium 3-way setup and even though this was a budget purchase the upper midrange breakup was not something I expected to have to deal with out of the box. This was also my first attempt at a 7" 2-way install so that could be part of the problem (I figured there wasn't any difference between this and your typical 6.5" driver). The midbass response, however, is phenomenal. They can easily run without a high-pass crossover but that may also be attributed to the amount of sound deadening I used. With the car parked they sounded plenty punchy but once on the road it became apparent that a subwoofer would be required to maintain that level of intensity above the road noise.

Full range response in my car w/o any tuning:









*Tuning*
I started with some basic crossover points and moved on to EQ settings. Refer to the full range graphs above and the final result down below to see why changes were made. 

Midrange Highpass: Freq=50Hz Slope=12db/octave Type=LW
Midrange Lowpass: Freq=3KHz Slope=12db/octave Type=LW
Tweeter Highpass: Freq=3KHz Slope=12db/octave Type=LW
Midrange Parametric EQ:
Band1: Freq=80Hz Q=5 Level=+3db (low-shelf) -- add some more umph (not shown on graph)
Band2: Freq=150Hz Q=6 Level=+10db (peaking) -- fill valley @ 150Hz
Band3: Freq=480Hz Q=1 Level=+6db (peaking) -- fill valley @ 480Hz
Band4: Freq=3.7KHz Q=4 Level=-6db (peaking) -- reduce breakup node

This gave me the following full-range response curve:










After some post-tuning listening I am still a little unhappy with the midrange breakup. It is most noticable with male vocals at highway moderate listening levels (ie, louder than listening in your driveway but not open window full blast) because if I turn it down the breakup goes away and if I turn it up my ears stop caring. However, I can still enjoy the majority of my music and npdang has been helping me with some more tuning ideas.

I can't say this is the best setup I've installed, but since it is the only sub $200 2-way 7" setup I have ever attempted I'd probably say it captures about 85% of the quality I might get from a $400-600 setup...and because of that I still call it a great deal.

For more details about the issues I've been having and the suggestions people have been making to remedy them, please see the following thread:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23856


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

So when you modify it, CA18 first, or tweeter and mid?

Somewhere down the road, I'm sure !


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