# New PPI Art Series?



## NEXT

I have heard someone bought the name and is bringing back the PPI Art Series.

Is this true?

Any info would be appreciated.


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## ChrisB

Epsilon Electronics, the maker of Kole, Power Acoustik, and other crap brands, purchased PPI and also owns Soundstream. The last rumor that I had was that PPI is going to be positioned as the company's "high end" product and they were considering doing a modern rendition of the Art series.

The other industry rumor that I heard was that PPI's entry level amplifiers will contain the current Soundstream Reference circuit boards. In other words, their "regular" line will have Soundstream's current top offering.


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## NEXT

That would be better than what we have had.........


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## old_skool_noma

this is some good news in light of some darker days that have befallen ppi, hopefully they can become a nice manufacturer once again.



found a news article about the buyout

http://www.twice.com/article/240300-Epsilon_Buys_Precision_Power_From_Directed.php


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## SQ4ME2

i am certain it will not be the quality of the old Art series. I often get a chubby thinking of A/D/S or KEF coming out of the grave to return and make great speakers again.


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## old_skool_noma

SQ4ME2 said:


> i am certain it will not be the quality of the old Art series. I often get a chubby thinking of A/D/S or KEF coming out of the grave to return and make great speakers again.


nothing can replace the quality of the old art series (ive got 2 and plan on getting more) but, after looking through the soundstream lineup, im sure PPI is headed for better days than they've had in the past 10 years


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## quality_sound

SQ4ME2 said:


> i am certain it will not be the quality of the old Art series. I often get a chubby thinking of A/D/S or KEF coming out of the grave to return and make great speakers again.


a/d/s/

Sorry, it bothers me when people rave about a company and then spell it's name wrong. Yes, it's all lower case and there's a forward slash after each letter.


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## JKashat

Man, I can't wait to (hopefully) buy BRAND NEW 2010 PPI Art Series Amplifiers!!! I'll take two of each, one to use, and one to keep NIB for ten years or more.


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## old_skool_noma

id love to do that, but my current budget wont allow for that, and my install requires the 1996 arts, so i may have to wait a few years


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## rexroadj

Ok, I have done some searching and I have seen and read the articles that PPI was purchased and what the plans were regarding the future of PPI but can anyone show me where you are seeing these actual amps, Website would be really nice, articles about them? To say I am interested is a big understatment owning two of the new ss reference amps and being truly impressed with there performance, the new art series (if they are really doing such a thing) has me intrigued! Is this all just word of mouth bs. wishful thinking or does anyone actually have solid proof/info.


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## s4play

I still have a few of the older PPC .2 Art series amps ~ great stuff for sure!


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## Pitbully

Precision Power PPI PDX-10K 10,000 Watt Monoblock Amp - eBay (item 250543155366 end time Dec-08-09 07:55:12 PST)


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## kroid7777

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Epsilon Electronics, the maker of Kole, Power Acoustik, and other crap brands, purchased PPI and also owns Soundstream. The last rumor that I had was that PPI is going to be positioned as the company's "high end" product and they were considering doing a modern rendition of the Art series.
> 
> The other industry rumor that I heard was that PPI's entry level amplifiers will contain the current Soundstream Reference circuit boards. In other words, their "regular" line will have Soundstream's current top offering.


So is power acoustik crap or not?


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## rexroadj

I think crap is based on $, vs. expectations vs. needs. I would say they are a budget friendly company. Plenty of frills and marketing, would I ever own one...........
NO! I will also add (of course anything said by me is strictly my opinion) people tend to have a sort of foolish theory when one company buys another (lets use dei buying ppi for example) they think all there products are suddenly crap! That is absurd..... Why would a company buy another companys great name/reputation.......So they can run it to the ground and make 0 money on it? No they are buying the technology.... They might make some things a little more market friendly (to make $ duh......) and to make a product fit the mass market better. (the reason why the company was originaly going under) I am not saying that some companys have not done some foolish things after buying a reputable company, but I can promise you the intent is not to put it down the ****ter.....thats not smart business and they do things for a reason....$$$$. Just think about this example for a moment...... The ppi 356 components that people are all of a suddent going crazy over..... They went un noticed so long because people saw DEI...PPI and said oh they ruined it, it has to be crap instead of actually giving them a shot. A few years later, and a few hundred dollars less on **** bay and now they are the greatest thing since sliced bread..... Why did I just rant like this..... NO CLUE....Sorry... Well I guess I am saying that just because the same company makes power acoustic does not mean that new PPI is going to be the same quality as power acoustic.... That would not do anything to help them out at all....

I hope the person that attached the ebay link is not using that as proof that there is a new art series...... WHERE IS THE WEBSITE...... where are other items....


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## jel847

Pitbully said:


> Precision Power PPI PDX-10K 10,000 Watt Monoblock Amp - eBay (item 250543155366 end time Dec-08-09 07:55:12 PST)


that is* NOT* the new ppi.. that allegedly has been around for a while. there was another thread on the subject.


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## jel847

jel847 said:


> that is* NOT* the new ppi.. that allegedly has been around for a while. there was another thread on the subject.


here it is:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...um/70267-new-precision-power-ppi-pdx-10k.html


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## cleansoundz

Anything will be better than what Directed did to that company. Hopefully Epsilon Electronics will hire an engineer to help them with their products rather than sending it off to Korea or China to some buildhouse.


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## jel847

rexroadj you need to at least give them a chance. they(epsion electronics) have done a good job so far trying to turn soundstream brand around. the new ss refrence amps are getting good reviews. i know that grizz archer is the brand manager at soundstream and that has a lot to do with it. hopefuly he is part of the new ppi as well.


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## rexroadj

jel847 said:


> rexroadj you need to at least give them a chance. they(epsion electronics) have done a good job so far trying to turn soundstream brand around. the new ss refrence amps are getting good reviews. i know that grizz archer is the brand manager at soundstream and that has a lot to do with it. hopefuly he is part of the new ppi as well.


???????????I was saying people should not care that the same company that owns power acoustics now owns ppi......It does not mean that the ppi amps are going to be rebadged P.A. like so many just love to assume. I own the ss ref 4.400 and 4.920 and love them....as stated above so I have faith. My gripe is where people getting there claims about a new art series, what there quality vs. soundstream ref is, etc...... We see this all the time with people that speak just to hear themselves talk, and dont really know anything! I am all over a new art series if they come out. My point was that people should be less concerned with who buys the company. They dont buy it to turn it to poo. They are buying a companys technology and adding it to there arsenal. The amp you keep showing the link to really does nothing for me as far as what they are doing right now..... Here is why... We have no idea when that was made, if they actually have it to sell. I have heard a few people say it was specificaly made for team soundstream (spl obviously) as a taster. We need a website, I figure with things so close to ces there would be some signs of life. I have seen some glimpses of the new phoenix gold stuff........Yeah they might get my business back too! Nice.....Real Nice!


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## jel847

sorry bro i misunderstood you... the amp in the link is nothing new thats the only reason i responded to the post about it as it is NOT the new ppi...
fingers are crossed.


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## gitmobass

I really REALLY hope that Epsilon Electronics can turn it around and make some more great amps like the PPI's of yesterday.


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## TREETOP

quality_sound said:


> a/d/s/
> 
> Sorry, it bothers me when people rave about a company and then spell it's name wrong. Yes, it's all lower case and there's a forward slash after each letter.


Before it was a/d/s/ it was ADS.


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## ChrisB

Unfortunately, I have little faith in Epsilon Electronics other than the fact that they have a great marketing department that is good at creating hype before a product is released. 

I remember us giving Grizz hell over the new Soundstream Reference amplifiers with the 20 Hz to 20 kHz rating at +/- 3dB. So what did Soundstream do? They removed the +/- 3dB response on the website and put the ubsurd frequency response of 15-50kHz.


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## rexroadj

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Unfortunately, I have little faith in Epsilon Electronics other than the fact that they have a great marketing department that is good at creating hype before a product is released.
> 
> I remember us giving Grizz hell over the new Soundstream Reference amplifiers with the 20 Hz to 20 kHz rating at +/- 3dB. So what did Soundstream do? They removed the +/- 3dB response on the website and put the ubsurd frequency response of 15-50kHz.


Well luckily I have 0 faith in #s.....I own the new ref amps and can tell you first hand they are phenominal amps and were a direct replacement for a mcintosh 404. I dont miss the mac at all! I guess this is exactly what I have been talking about....people see a company take over and imediately throw the new product out the window.... Try one, read the latest review in pasmag....or wherever the hell it was.......


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## PPI_GUY

The new PPI will NOT be rebadged Power Acoustik. There will be three new/old series of amps and subs for each series. Art will be among them. New components are on the way as well. Pictures are not available yet as far as I know and none of the new stuff is available for sale yet. 
All of the new PPI stuff will be debuted at CES.


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## ChrisB

PPI_GUY said:


> The new PPI will NOT be rebadged Power Acoustik.


What about their entry level line containing the new Soundstream Reference boards? That was what I heard.


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## rexroadj

PPI_GUY said:


> The new PPI will NOT be rebadged Power Acoustik. There will be three new/old series of amps and subs for each series. Art will be among them. New components are on the way as well. Pictures are not available yet as far as I know and none of the new stuff is available for sale yet.
> All of the new PPI stuff will be debuted at CES.


I am in no way questioning you, in fact I thank your for the info/update, but can I ask how you know this? Also where and why is there no website yet? To me that is the oddest part. I am extremely excited to see, touch, hear the new stuff....if you run across any sneak peaks please do share!


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## msmith

If you want amps designed by the same guy that designed the Art Series (Bruce Macmillan), you need to look at JL Audio amps.


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## jel847

from what i heard the company(PPI) is baically making their grand entrace at CES....


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## rexroadj

jel847 said:


> from what i heard the company(PPI) is baically making their grand entrace at CES....


Well at least that is not to far away....Hmmm so will phoenix gold! Could be a good year. Makes me wanna dig out my warren g, snoop, dre, and pearl jam cds!!! Good ole days!


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## ChrisB

The only downside is they picked a crappy global economy to attempt to make a comeback in.


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## rexroadj

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> The only downside is they picked a crappy global economy to attempt to make a comeback in.


Very true! Hopefully they will have an adequate budget to engineer and produce what we once loved! The only flip side is that maybe they will make them market friendly and you will also get the flag wavers that see ppi and think america and buy them. I realize that they are not made here but to support the engineers, etc. here I definitely keep stuff like that in mind. Another reason I am excited for the new phoenix line!


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## PPI_GUY

rex or anyone else who knows, will the new Phoenix stuff be designed here and built elsewhere? Just wondering.


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## 89grand

I don't see the purpose in "new" Art Series amps. If they aren't an exact copy, and more than likely they won't be since everyone wants bass boost and crossovers and ****, then who cares if someone makes an amp with a heat sink similar to the Art Series that says PPI on it, but is in no other way a PPI Art Series?


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## PPI_GUY

89grand said:


> I don't see the purpose in "new" Art Series amps. If they aren't an exact copy, and more than likely they won't be since everyone wants bass boost and crossovers and ****, then who cares if someone makes an amp with a heat sink similar to the Art Series that says PPI on it, but is in no other way a PPI Art Series?


Good question. Some will be attracted to the name and others will just be curious. Where the road and the rubber meet is IF the new stuff performs, is reliable and looks good. 
The closest example I can think of would be the Rockford 25 to Life amps (or new SS Ref. series) that looked similiar to their namesakes but, were built with modern components and manufacturing techniques.
I haven't actually seen or heard any of the new amps so, I am cautiously optimistic. Especially after seeing and hearing reviews of the new SoundStream pieces.


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## rexroadj

I think the point of carrying the names are to help people know what line they are looking for....I know if I am shopping ppi and see art series, I know that is the best they have to offer in SQ. Powerclass.....kinda says it in the name, etc... I do think they will get a lot of business from people like me that just wanna see if its as good as it used to be but with some of the benefits of todays tech. I own the new ss ref amps and personally I think they are better then the original, if for anything the more efficient it is on my electrical system and the headroom is insane. I like the nostalgia....think about how cool it would be if ppi, soundstream, and phoenix gold were back making high quality items competing head to head again. That is how we got all these great products to begin with....competition brought out the absolute best! 

Here is some good info on the PG stuff! from the horses mouth!
Phoenix Gold Phorum // View topic - Sneak Peek


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## 89grand

The problem is PPI and Soundstream are just names. They don't mean anything to me anymore since it may as well just be called Power Acoustiks which I always viewed as a more bottom feeder brand.

It's like Kia buying Porsche, then using Kia technology to make the new ones. Even if it's decent technology, it still isn't Porsche, it's Kia.


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## ChrisB

Sadly, we have enough names on heatsinks these days with everyone and his brother rebadging amplifiers produced by Zenon.

ETA: Since a certain executive at DEI will no longer speak to me... Does anyone know how that Orion anniversary edition is going? I know it didn't work out so well for Rockford Fosgate and I am curious to see if anyone else can pull it off.


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## PPI_GUY

89grand said:


> The problem is PPI and Soundstream are just names. They don't mean anything to me anymore since it may as well just be called Power Acoustiks which I always viewed as a more bottom feeder brand.
> 
> It's like Kia buying Porsche, then using Kia technology to make the new ones. Even if it's decent technology, it still isn't Porsche, it's Kia.


The new SS amps aren't rebadged Power Acoustiks so, why would you think the PPI stuff will be? The info I have points to updated PPI designs with very good S/N numbers and headroom.
If they make good, clean, dynamic and reliable power with some add-on's like balanced inputs, I think they could be nice pieces. I have a feeling they will follow SS and use a design very familiar to PPI fans.
I am not selling my Pro Mos, M/AM amps just yet but, I remain very cautiously optimistic.


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## slomofo

89grand said:


> The problem is PPI and Soundstream are just names. They don't mean anything to me anymore since it may as well just be called Power Acoustiks which I always viewed as a more bottom feeder brand.
> 
> It's like Kia buying Porsche, then using Kia technology to make the new ones. Even if it's decent technology, it still isn't Porsche, it's Kia.


this is a more relative point than you know, and i think you actually may have proven yourself wrong by making it. case in point: volkswagen bought lamborghini in the late 90's from a conglomerate. after this happened, the build quality went up, the resale went up, the technology got better. they are more reliable and more touted as a well built supercar which is a far cry from the countachs and diablos of yesteryear. this from the company that brought you economy cars. now volkswagen owns porsche after a failed corporate coup by porsche execs. Tata motors bought Aston Martin. they only make one junk car but the people who can afford Aston's won't care.
the point is, just because a budget minded brand buys something doesn't mean that they want to change it into a junk brand. they want to have more platforms for technology that allows for higher quality products. who wants to pay for a $1000 power acoustik amp. no one does. who will pay $1000 for a new ppi with the build quality to justify it. lot's of people. it's business.


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## bri g

this is interesting news. as a ppi art fanatic, I would love to hear these new amps vs the old arts. I hope they can live up to the art name and not just share the same heatsink.


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## rexroadj

People just really do not seam to get the business concept that they are not going to buy another name just to put there previous and lower quality components in them. How could the possibly make any money doing so? Maybe they would sell a few right off the bat but once that news got out they would plummit over night! The other thing people need to get through there thick skulls is that the people on forums such as this are the 1% of car audio. We are proud audiophiles that see and hear the benefit of high quality items... Well they are not going to make any $ providing a service to 1% so they need to make sure they can cover a wider range of the market....The reason these companys were for sale to begin with. Now they can make amps for everyone with the technology the already have and get to learn and implicate new ideas from new engineers that laid a foundation of the quality that we came to know, appreciate, and expect. Think of it this way.......Say they brought in an engineer from Mcintosh and made a power acoustic amp with a mcintosh internal......NO one would pay to buy it, no one would give it a shot, everyone would not be able to get past the label. This way they get to have there cake and eat it too. They have lines for people that just want to bump in there trunk and now they have a label (and lets not forget the funding) to make stuff for people like us......Well that is for the people who can look past the office and financing that own it! The only reason I am the least bit excited is because I was a huge ss ppi and phoenix fan back in the day, I took a chance and tried out the new ss ref. line and am very glad I did. The ppi stuff still might suck but to stick your nose up because of another company buying it assuming they are trying to ruin it is just dumb, because it could be absolutely awesome! Just give it some time and some real world experience first!


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## old_skool_noma

rexroadj said:


> People just really do not seam to get the business concept that they are not going to buy another name just to put there previous and lower quality components in them. How could the possibly make any money doing so? Maybe they would sell a few right off the bat but once that news got out they would plummit over night! The other thing people need to get through there thick skulls is that the people on forums such as this are the 1% of car audio. We are proud audiophiles that see and hear the benefit of high quality items... Well they are not going to make any $ providing a service to 1% so they need to make sure they can cover a wider range of the market....The reason these companys were for sale to begin with. Now they can make amps for everyone with the technology the already have and get to learn and implicate new ideas from new engineers that laid a foundation of the quality that we came to know, appreciate, and expect. Think of it this way.......Say they brought in an engineer from Mcintosh and made a power acoustic amp with a mcintosh internal......NO one would pay to buy it, no one would give it a shot, everyone would not be able to get past the label. This way they get to have there cake and eat it too. They have lines for people that just want to bump in there trunk and now they have a label (and lets not forget the funding) to make stuff for people like us......Well that is for the people who can look past the office and financing that own it! The only reason I am the least bit excited is because I was a huge ss ppi and phoenix fan back in the day, I took a chance and tried out the new ss ref. line and am very glad I did. The ppi stuff still might suck but to stick your nose up because of another company buying it assuming they are trying to ruin it is just dumb, because it could be absolutely awesome! Just give it some time and some real world experience first!


my thoughts exactly, after hearing that the high end SS amps would be the low line boards in the PPI amps i re-gained some hope for the PPI name


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## rexroadj

Well I dont know how true/possible that is either..... If the Art series are on the same par with the new Ref. then I still think its a big win for PPI. Those Ref amps are no joke.


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## old_skool_noma

from what ive heard the arts should be higher end than the reference amps, i would guess that they bring back the sedona line for the reference boards? but that is pure speculation on my part, i know that the main PPI amps are supposed to nicer then the sound stream reference


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## Jh8909

Although all this new info about PPI coming back with the art series is great and i will be testing one myself if they actually do come out, That period of engineering will never return. Art series were purpose built. every damn piece. 
I hate re-stating the obvious but a company that underrates their product so people can buy them and enter into lower classes at comps is just hard to see in my eyes. Now a days some companies (except a select few) overrate their products just to sell them.

I am excited for what is to come at CES myself.


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## ChrisB

rexroadj said:


> People just really do not seam to get the business concept that they are not going to buy another name *just to put there previous and lower quality components in them. How could the possibly make any money doing so? Maybe they would sell a few right off the bat but once that news got out they would plummit over night!*


Sounds like you just described DEI's business plan with their contribution to the car audio market. What are they left with now? Orion? How many premier builds do you see with Orion gear these days?


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## rexroadj

How much marketing do you see? How much of a budget do you think anyone has right now. I am not saying that they cant step in over ther heads either. Or that the timing of the buyout worked against them. I still think its to many people expecting the worst rather then giving them a shot. The line right before this last one was all over the place....the h2 sub and the chrome amps were everywhere! Then jl kicked there marketing into over drive, and the economy took a major ****ter. There are thousands of reasons why that might have happend. You choose to ASSUME that anything dei or any mass market company touches is just doing it to make an inferior product. Well thats your choice but your probably missing out on some great products with that potential ingnorance. Between that mindset and all the dumb rumors people like to start for the sake of hearing themselves speak!


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## ChrisB

Actually, I own a couple of 90s era Digital Reference HCCA amplifiers and tried ONE post buyout, DEI produced Orion amplifier a few years ago. The 90s era HCCA still works whereas the post buyout, DEI produced, Orion didn't even make it to the end of its warranty period without being sent in a couple of times, and died shortly after the warranty was up.


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## NEXT

More info out?


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## PPI_GUY

NEXT said:


> More info out?


Not really anything that's concrete or common public knowledge. Looks like we will all have to wait for CES coming up in about a week and a half.
I am not as excited as I was two weeks ago but, having the PPI brand out there again with some quality and a future are peaking my curiousity.


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## AAAAAAA

As others have said, I am not particularly interested in another overseas amp that gets a different badge on it.

Like someone mentioned, if you want to see where PPI would be now, just get some JL amps.


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## ChrisB

PPI_GUY said:


> Looks like we will all have to wait for CES coming up in about a week and a half.


CES is January 7 - 10 this year.


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## WRX/Z28

msmith said:


> If you want amps designed by the same guy that designed the Art Series (Bruce Macmillan), you need to look at JL Audio amps.



I've been mentioning this in all the O/S ppi threads. People seem to forget that the guts were what made the art's fantastic amps, not the pretty graphics. An epsilon PPI Art will be cosmetically the same (maybe), but the guts will be designed by someone completely different than the originals. The evolution of the Art series is right here in front of us (JL amps). 

Manville, maybe you guys could release a limited edition Art graphic JL amp? See if Carolyn Hall Young could make you a new version of the famous art series prints and make it a special edition JL amp? That might get some of the O/S art die hards to realize where they can get the new versions... with or without the cosmetics. 

Powdercoat it smooth white and put a .2 on them. They'll sell like hotcakes to the old heads... 

and/or make a black series with the circuit board layout printed on it.


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## rexroadj

Same designer does not equal the same amp. The jl amps are not art amps. Not saying they are not great but I would take an old beat up art amp over a jl any day of the week. (probably because I cant let go of the old I guess) I do like the flexibility of the slash amps though! I think people put way to much into names....I dont care who designed something when it was original or where they are now, I dont care what company owns whom and what other companys they have bought or sold. Are they good amps or not? People are putting way to much into names of people and companys before a product is even released. Its kinda sad and petty imo.


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## t3sn4f2

rexroadj said:


> Same designer does not equal the same amp. The jl amps are not art amps. Not saying they are not great but I would take an old beat up art amp over a jl any day of the week. (probably because I cant let go of the old I guess) I do like the flexibility of the slash amps though! I think people put way to much into names....I dont care who designed something when it was original or where they are now, I dont care what company owns whom and what other companys they have bought or sold. Are they good amps or not? People are putting way to much into names of people and companys before a product is even released. Its kinda sad and petty imo.


Yeah there's nothing like an _old_ amp with _old_ dried out caps to give you that great sound.


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## rexroadj

I didnt say it would sound better? What I am saying is its been how many years since they were produced? and how many are still running like tanks. I like to know I have/am investing in something like that. Same reason why I love Mcintosh, its an investment that I am going to have as long as I want. I am not saying that jl will not have the same legacy but ppi has already done it. Plus they art amps are easy and pretty cheap to fix if needed. But again thats not the point....The point is people are already crowning and burying something they have not seen or touched or heard only based on names and rumors.....Its just dumb thats all. They might be great or suck but it wont be because of the label!


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## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> Same designer does not equal the same amp. The jl amps are not art amps. Not saying they are not great but I would take an old beat up art amp over a jl any day of the week. (probably because I cant let go of the old I guess) I do like the flexibility of the slash amps though! I think people put way to much into names....I dont care who designed something when it was original or where they are now, I dont care what company owns whom and what other companys they have bought or sold. Are they good amps or not? People are putting way to much into names of people and companys before a product is even released. Its kinda sad and petty imo.


Right, same designer does = same design quality and idea's 99 times out of 100. 

I'm as big an art series guy as anyone else on this board. I guarantee I own more of them than anyone else here. I'll be the first to tell you that the JL's are as good or better amps than the arts. 

There are plenty of people on the forum selling ~10 year old JL amps that still run strong. Gee, I wonder why. lol. 

not really the best analogy but.... Do you have a mechanic that you trust? His work on your last car was good. Why wouldn't his work on your new car be good? If he changed shops, would you go to his new shop? or continue to patronize the old shop that hired someone else to fill his shoes? What makes the difference? The name involved? or the talent behind the product?


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## rexroadj

Well in this case I think the budget and components available has more to do with it. JL had a great budget to put forth. I think a better analogy would be a football team. Would you go to a team that has less $ to pay you and inferior players they are willing to bring in or go where the $ is and the ability to deal with better players. What people seem to forget is the only reason companys like ppi, ads, soundstream, orion, etc....are not individual companys anymore is because the market changed. Its about show, $, and size. Not as much about quality and saying this is the best thing offered right now. Its not what the population is looking for. We are 1% of the market thats catering soley to us is not how you make $ period. I do not agree with the same builder = the same anything. It has to do with the company thats paying him, what there budget is, and what there goals are. At the end of the day he is just another employee that can be replaced with someone that will do what they want. Of course there are some people like him who could be brought in to soley develope a line but there are always budgets and goals of a certain company. At the end of the day its up (in this case) JL and they did a great job! But that does not mean that another company like ppi could not come up with some new young stud that has a new great idea with a simplified budget. Its technology and its always changing. After hearing some news about these amps in particular I am completely off the band wagon. I am however on the new Phoenix bandwagon. And will say again, regardless of who owns soundstream and what they have done in the past few years......The new ref amps are absolutely awesome and would put them up against pretty much anything else as far as power, and ability


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## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> Well in this case I think the budget and components available has more to do with it. JL had a great budget to put forth. I think a better analogy would be a football team. Would you go to a team that has less $ to pay you and inferior players they are willing to bring in or go where the $ is and the ability to deal with better players. What people seem to forget is the only reason companys like ppi, ads, soundstream, orion, etc....are not individual companys anymore is because the market changed. Its about show, $, and size. Not as much about quality and saying this is the best thing offered right now. Its not what the population is looking for. We are 1% of the market thats catering soley to us is not how you make $ period. I do not agree with the same builder = the same anything. It has to do with the company thats paying him, what there budget is, and what there goals are. At the end of the day he is just another employee that can be replaced with someone that will do what they want. Of course there are some people like him who could be brought in to soley develope a line but there are always budgets and goals of a certain company. At the end of the day its up (in this case) JL and they did a great job! But that does not mean that another company like ppi could not come up with some new young stud that has a new great idea with a simplified budget. Its technology and its always changing. After hearing some news about these amps in particular I am completely off the band wagon. I am however on the new Phoenix bandwagon. And will say again, regardless of who owns soundstream and what they have done in the past few years......The new ref amps are absolutely awesome and would put them up against pretty much anything else as far as power, and ability



So you think it's a coincidence that JL's electronics team is practically PPI's old team? 

Or you think they saddled Bruce Macmillan with a budget? (really?)
Or you think that engineering and experience have nothing to do with it, it's all blind luck? 

Silly. 

My point is this. All you guys who are here in this thread anticipating the release of a "new version of the art series" amp are missing the boat. They're already here. Like it or not, the closest thing to a new art series amp would be the JL amps, not the epsilon arts.


----------



## ChrisB

Who is the design engineer behind the new Epsilon Electronics produced Soundstream and PPI amplifiers anyhow?


----------



## rexroadj

No they had a plan and a direction. Just like so many other companys. Not the same direction but a direction. 
I dont think your seeing my point completely. I said its possible and likely in the case of jl that they built a huge budget and went after these guys with a because they had a specific direction they wanted to go. But if jl didnt have the money to get access to certain components they would not end up with the same stuff or engineer. Or if JL or any company had 0 care for using high end components or care about build quality it wouldnt matter if you brought in god! And for the record everything revolves around a budget, whether its hiring him or what expenses he has for components, etc..... That goes both ways. Do you think someone like Bruce would go work for someone that was not going to open the flood gates of cash to let him do what he does? If there is a limited budget someone like him would be just another guy. I am not saying he is not better then 85% of them but you can only build what you have available to you. So If you dont think a budget had anything to do with him going there then you are silly!
I dont think people are expecting the same art series. I am just pointing out that the fact people are saying they are going to be crap because of what company bought the name is just completely ignorant. Just as people saying they are going to be kings of the audio industry because of the name art are ignorant. I now know more details about the products being released and they are not going the route I originally thought so I dont care. But I think the thought process of people on here regarding this is just rediculous.


----------



## ChrisB

It is hard to escape the fact that Epsilon Electronics, who customarily produced bottom feeder, LOW quality products, is NOW producing "high end" or "quality" products. That would be akin to Kia producing a supercar designed to compete with Ferrari, Lamborghini, Zonda, Noble, or the Saleen S7. Something just doesn't add up.


----------



## rexroadj

I think that comparison would be a stretch! Again I will say the new ss ref. are as good or better as anything that had the ss tag before it. I cant say that ppi will be the same, but there is no reason a company cant change or start to build better things. But again they have not had too either! Again what the market dictates......they have not needed to make anything to special they were making $ on what they were selling and spending a ton of money on a budget for 1% of the market is definitely a roll of the dice. Building something even like the ss ref. was probably a big financial gamble for them I'm sure. Not that I think they used extra $ parts or anything, but its a huge upgrade from anything else they put out. I will say what I have heard about ppi within the last couple weeks I am a little dissapointed. But I shouldnt really need to care since I really am more then pleased with my ref. 
I would say if they can come out with something as good as the ref. it would arguably be the best ppi amp since the arts. Now we need to figure out what the costs are going to be. If they are the same as the ref then to me its a great $ vs product deal!


----------



## [email protected]

WRX/Z28 said:


> I've been mentioning this in all the O/S ppi threads. People seem to forget that the guts were what made the art's fantastic amps, not the pretty graphics. An epsilon PPI Art will be cosmetically the same (maybe), but the guts will be designed by someone completely different than the originals. The evolution of the Art series is right here in front of us (JL amps).
> 
> *Manville, maybe you guys could release a limited edition Art graphic JL amp? See if Carolyn Hall Young could make you a new version of the famous art series prints and make it a special edition JL amp? That might get some of the O/S art die hards to realize where they can get the new versions... with or without the cosmetics. *
> 
> Powdercoat it smooth white and put a .2 on them. They'll sell like hotcakes to the old heads...
> 
> and/or make a black series with the circuit board layout printed on it.


Why, they would charge you $2000 for it.


----------



## PPI_GUY

What percentage of amps are built overseas today? 85%-90%? Heck, look at the entry level JL amps, the TMA series and even the A/E/G series are all built overseas. I know the A and E series have been widely acclaimed as great amps and there's nothing terribly special about them. The 'slash' series has good parts but, is basically a very tightly regulated power supply on a proprietary board and it hasn't changed much since it was introduced. JL hasn't even considered a cosmetic change other than offering them in black. So, they found a formula and have stuck with it. But, where is the innovation? Where are the next generation JL amps that get people excited? 
I'm not sure about the Art Series but, the Mosfet Series was a very losely regulated design that made substantially more power than advertised when higher voltages were applied. They were stable from 2-8 ohm, had very nice S/N numbers and the Pro Mos Series were even .5 ohm stable. I was told recently by someone inside Epsilon that some of the new PPI would have specs that surpassed the old Art Series. If so, that is a step forward and should be welcomed. But, the same person told me that 1 ohm stereo stable amps won't sell in this market. I can't agree with that but, I may not be seeing the big picture like he does. All of these companies want to make money and they need to appeal to the widest market so, they cut cost by having stuff built overseas. I can understand that even if I don't agree with it.
My only real problem with JL amps is that they look so industrial and cold. Plus, I can't say I have ever heard people sing the praises of the 'sound' of JL amps versus the Art series.


----------



## msmith

PPI_GUY said:


> What percentage of amps are built overseas today? 85%-90%? Heck, look at the entry level JL amps, the TMA series and even the A/E/G series are all built overseas. I know the A and E series have been widely acclaimed as great amps and there's nothing terribly special about them.


Actually, they have unique (and patented) amplification circuits developed by Bruce Macmillan. Absolute Symmetry is the Class A/B technology using dual N-channel MOSFETS with a special circuit to invert the polarity of one N-channel and avoid higher distortion at low impedances (common with other dual N-channel designs). The Class D G-series amps use a special feedback loop that enhances power regulation and damping factor.



> The 'slash' series has good parts but, is basically a very tightly regulated power supply on a proprietary board and it hasn't changed much since it was introduced.


You do realize that the PPI Art Series (and "M", "AM", "ProMOS" and "DM") all had tightly regulated supplies, right? And the 2350DM had a primitive version of RIPS as well.

The Slash amps were a REVOLUTIONARY design when introduced. Nobody had done a full line of amps with RIPS functionality, rollback protection and the feature set this product offered. We gave Bruce Macmillan a blank sheet of paper and the freedom to try stuff he had been wanting to do, but hadn't had the time or budget to do at PPI or Xtant.



> JL hasn't even considered a cosmetic change other than offering them in black. So, they found a formula and have stuck with it.


We did give them a facelift a couple of years ago, when they became "v2" slash amps. We didn't change much because they still sell very well and a lot of people like them.



> But, where is the innovation? Where are the next generation JL amps that get people excited?


Ummm... you haven't heard about the HD's? That's your next generation. And you can also check out the new XD's in 2010 (replacing the G-Series).



> I'm not sure about the Art Series but, the Mosfet Series was a very losely regulated design that made substantially more power than advertised when higher voltages were applied.


If you're referring to the M (as in 2150M), you are incorrect. Bruce Macmillan was hired to fix that design, which became the AM series after he finished revising them.



> They were stable from 2-8 ohm, had very nice S/N numbers


Yes, they were very clean, but they got nuclear hot at 2 ohms (or 4 ohms bridged) and were not very reliable in that mode. Trust me... I used them in my IASCA car.



> and the Pro Mos Series were even .5 ohm stable.


No they were not. They were only 1 ohm stable. The ProMOS amps were derived from the AM, by the way... not the "M".



> My only real problem with JL amps is that they look so industrial and cold. Plus, I can't say I have ever heard people sing the praises of the 'sound' of JL amps versus the Art series.


Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, of course. As for sound, I think people like to wax nostalgic about the "good old days" and how great those amps were back in the day. Compared to other amps in 1990, the PPI's were really great amps, for sure.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.


----------



## W8 a minute

Despite what people think great amplifiers CAN be built in Asia. Whether they are or not is another question. I bet if I could stuff a new board in an old heatsink many of us couldn't tell the difference when installed in a properly setup system. And by properly set up I mean time alignment, equalization, etc.

Honestly I doubt most of us would even purchase a new PPI amp at the old price points after they were adjusted for inflation. The MSRP would be astronomical.

On a side note I just picked up a JL 500/1 and 300/2 in mint condition for $400 on Craigslist. Hooray for supply and demand!!!


----------



## PPI_GUY

msmith said:


> Actually, they have unique (and patented) amplification circuits developed by Bruce Macmillan. Absolute Symmetry is the Class A/B technology using dual N-channel MOSFETS with a special circuit to invert the polarity of one N-channel and avoid higher distortion at low impedances (common with other dual N-channel designs). The Class D G-series amps use a special feedback loop that enhances power regulation and damping factor.
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize that the PPI Art Series (and "M", "AM", "ProMOS" and "DM") all had tightly regulated supplies, right? And the 2350DM had a primitive version of RIPS as well.
> 
> Then how do you explain the nearly doubled output of the M/AM and ProMos series when the impedience is halved?
> 
> The Slash amps were a REVOLUTIONARY design when introduced. Nobody had done a full line of amps with RIPS functionality, rollback protection and the feature set this product offered. We gave Bruce Macmillan a blank sheet of paper and the freedom to try stuff he had been wanting to do, but hadn't had the time or budget to do at PPI or Xtant.
> 
> No argument from me there. The original slash line was revolutionary.
> 
> 
> Ummm... you haven't heard about the HD's? That's your next generation. And you can also check out the new XD's in 2010 (replacing the G-Series).
> 
> I all I have heard about the HD's is what I have read. Good and bad reviews. Will look forward to seeing the XD series.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they were very clean, but they got nuclear hot at 2 ohms (or 4 ohms bridged) and were not very reliable in that mode. Trust me... I used them in my IASCA car.
> 
> Mine never got hot and were very reliable at 2 ohms and bridged 4 ohm's. I won some local soundoff's with mine.
> 
> 
> No they were not. They were only 1 ohm stable. The ProMOS amps were derived from the AM, by the way... not the "M".
> 
> The Pro Mos amps debuted in 88/89. I owned two white ones that were dated 1989 and did NOT have the funky 'pyramids and palmtree' artwork.
> Also, I have personally seen the Pro Mos work fantastic at .5 ohm.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, of course. As for sound, I think people like to wax nostalgic about the "good old days" and how great those amps were back in the day. Compared to other amps in 1990, the PPI's were really great amps, for sure.
> 
> Manville Smith
> JL Audio, Inc.


Well, I think the 1990's PPI amps were some of the best sounding and performing of all time. That includes the M/AM, especially the Pro Mos series and of course the Art series.


----------



## PPI_GUY

I want to correct any mis-conception that I dislike JL amps. Not true! Many of JL's products are great. I do think they (JL) now wish they had picked up the PPI name and brought it inhouse alittle while back. Obviously, there is some interest on their part as to what the new PPI lines will look and sound like. I honestly don't see that the new PPI will be much of a threat to JL and depending on how they perform, could actully help JL sales. Heck, I am as doubtful as anyone. I was already sold on the original PPI and now they (Epsilon) will have to win me over again.


----------



## rexroadj

I think this topic has gotten a little out of hand at this stage.....Probably mostly by me and I am sorry for that. 
Mark you have a lot of valuable insight and great experience as well.
Mr. Smith, I thank you for your chiming in here. I think your products are very solid and stable products.....Perhaps a little over priced but your legacy has spoken for itself too! 
Are the slash amps great! YES. 
Are the old ppi amps great YES. 
Is there a comparison? NO they are apples to oranges. I plan on running a set of components at 3ohm....I would like to have more power to them.....so would I rather a ppi art 600.2 or jl300/2..... I love the fact that the jl are the same power regardless of ohm load, I love how gentle they are on my electrical system, I love how they are built like tanks....like old schools stuff......But....they art 600.2 is going to give me the extra power I need/want. How do they each sound......well I think as good as your deck and speakers in front and behind them! I dont think the comparison between the two needs to be made and it sure as hell does not need to be made here! There is no relevance to the old art series and the new, and no relevance to the old art and jl, and 0 to the new art and jl! Lets just shut up and wait and see what they come up with! (on a side note...I really like the jl w6, and am a mediocre fan of the zr components....I think you guys could bump that component set up one more notch and really play with the big boys when it comes to component sets not that there bad or anything but for the $ there a lot of other options)...I am always impressed with the advancements you guys make in car audio...Love it or hate it, you guys are always trying...and some great technology has come from it! I guess you could look at the $ spent as being an investment on them continuing there forward progress!
No one is saying that Bruce had not revolutionized and created some incredible amps..... I am not saying that the old are "better" then the new....just that the mindset and marketing has done a 180 from the old and its not fair to expect the same from these companys. Are there that few choices for great products out there? I think not!


----------



## ChrisB

PPI_GUY said:


> Heck, I am as doubtful as anyone. I was already sold on the original PPI and now they (Epsilon) will have to win me over again.


Heck, after being burned by DEI's Orion amplifiers, you may as well call me Mr. Skeptic! 

Granted, I did make a few other mistakes... One of them was thinking the Solobaric L would be just as good or better than the original Solobaric series. The others... Well, if you look around on this forum, you will see. No point in continuing to beat a dead horse.:dead_horse:


----------



## PPI_GUY

I think we can all agree that DEI was one of the worst things to happen to car audio in a long time. How can you pretty much ruin Orion _and_ PPI???


----------



## msmith

PPI_Guy wrote:


> Then how do you explain the nearly doubled output of the M/AM and ProMos series when the impedience is halved?


That is, in fact, the signature of a tightly regulated power supply. Loosely regulated supplies don't fully double power as you halve the impedance. I think you might be confusing RIPS with a simple regulated power supply. The PPI's were tightly regulated but did not have the impedance optimizing circuitry (except the 2350DM).



> Mine never got hot and were very reliable at 2 ohms and bridged 4 ohm's. I won some local soundoff's with mine.


Okay. My experiences were totally different.



> The Pro Mos amps debuted in 88/89. I owned two white ones that were dated 1989 and did NOT have the funky 'pyramids and palmtree' artwork.
> Also, I have personally seen the Pro Mos work fantastic at .5 ohm.


I know exactly when they came out. My shop was the first to get them, use them and we won IASCA Finals 1-100W and Best of Show Pro with the 2nd ProMOS 2050 ever built (the early ones weren't labeled ProMos 50).

I'm not in any way trying to slam the PPI products. If we didn't have deep admiration for them, we wouldn't have hired the guys responsible for them. Both Bruce Macmillan (chief engineer) and Jeff Scoon (former president of PPI) work for JL Audio.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Mr. Smith,

Just wondering if JL 'slash' series amps are stable at 1 ohm stereo loads? I know the literature says 1.5 ohm's minimum but, just wondered if they would unofficially handle the lower impedance without any issues? 

The *Pro*fessional *Mos*fet Series 2050 amps I owned... 


...both operated at .5 ohm without a hickup.
Bruce Macmillan and Jeff Scoon have nothing but my highest respect. I wish they had stayed at PPI and continued their groundbreaking work there but, I'm sure JL is very happy they took a different path.
Again, I did not mean to denegrate JL in any way and I am interested in this new XD series you mentioned. New features and specs? Care to give us some pre-CES details? 
Should be an interesting show with new PPI and Phoenix Gold product line debuting as well.


----------



## msmith

PPI_GUY said:


> Mr. Smith,
> 
> Just wondering if JL 'slash' series amps are stable at 1 ohm stereo loads? I know the literature says 1.5 ohm's minimum but, just wondered if they would unofficially handle the lower impedance without any issues?


The Slash amps are stable down to 1/4 ohm, but they don't make much power at those impedances. I'll explain... the rollback protection circuit reduces power output when it senses impedances below 1.5 ohm. At 1 ohm you lose about 1/3 of the power... BUT, many "1 ohm" loads are higher than that in practice, so you may be fine. If the yellow light comes on the amp, you know it's rolling back. 



> Again, I did not mean to denegrate JL in any way and I am interested in this new XD series you mentioned. New features and specs? Care to give us some pre-CES details?
> Should be an interesting show with new PPI and Phoenix Gold product line debuting as well.


No worries... I took no offense. We have some info on the XD's on the JL Audio website right now. Go to the main mobile page and click the big "New Products for 2010" image.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.


----------



## jonnyanalog

So Manville will the XD600/6 and the up coming 5 channel XD employ crossovers that can be bandpassed? They look really interesting to me.


----------



## msmith

jonnyanalog said:


> So Manville will the XD600/6 and the up coming 5 channel XD employ crossovers that can be bandpassed? They look really interesting to me.


No, unfortunately they don't. Cost and size constraints prevented that. You would need to use an outboard crossover, or a passive low-pass filter to create a bandpass.

Instead of hijacking this thread, let's start a new one on the XD's so we can discuss them. Thanks.


----------



## rexroadj

Hmm. How convenient!!!! Just kidding! I think 5-6-7 channel amps are something that more companys should invest in. I know that if someone made one powerfull enough it would be utilized by most people. Aside from the rockford power 1000 I am not sure of any that would fit the bill for me. I would prefer something staggerd like 100x2 200x2 and 800x1 at 2ohms... I would pay a lot for something like that. Of course on board xovers would really be the icing on the cake!


----------



## WRX/Z28

BeatsDownLow said:


> Why, they would charge you $2000 for it.


Why? They didn't charge any more for the black amps. Their chrome ones were a little more expensive, but that was due to the cost of chroming things. 



msmith said:


> The Slash amps are stable down to 1/4 ohm, but they don't make much power at those impedances. I'll explain... the rollback protection circuit reduces power output when it senses impedances below 1.5 ohm. At 1 ohm you lose about 1/3 of the power... BUT, many "1 ohm" loads are higher than that in practice, so you may be fine. If the yellow light comes on the amp, you know it's rolling back.


Sounds familiar!!!

IIRC the art series did the same thing with loads much below 2ohm stereo/4ohm bridged. (for the standard arts, Pro-arts were half that)

Also, correct me if i'm wrong, but tightly regulated power supplies are generally more expensive to design and produce, no? 

They're generally used to improve the amps stability, and ensure it makes consistant power regardless of the car's voltage, no? 

Why are people saying regulated power supply like it's a four letter word?



I think one of you guys said something about JL amps not being known for good sound? Surely you can't be serious...



> "Review of 300/2:
> “This amplifier has what perfect reproduction of audio requires: good slew rate, low distortion, high damping, and high output current delivery.”
> 
> “In pure audiophile terms, I doubt that you could do better than the 300/2.”
> 
> Car Audio and Electronics magazine (USA) - Robert Zeff"


Hmmm... recognize that name? 



> Review of 500/1:
> “The JL Audio 500/1 really is a professional amplifier for serious listeners.”
> 
> On our sophisticated Active Crossover and Advanced Bass Control Sections...
> 
> “I’ve reviewed plenty of amplifiers in my time, but I’ve never seen a sub amp provide such a sonic tool set...”
> 
> “It offers such a plethora of controls that you can dial out many unwanted artifacts to get exactly the sound you are looking for.”
> 
> “By tweaking the 500/1's bass boost and preamp-output section, I was able to exactly dial in the perfect transition between the subs and the (mains).”
> 
> “It's cleverly designed to do almost anything you need to perfect your low end.”
> 
> On JL Audio's R.I.P.S. (Regulated Intelligent Power Supply) System...
> 
> “Supply voltage can range from 11 to 14.5 volts, the range not significantly affecting power output.”
> 
> “...the amplifier automatically matches the speakers, allowing more flexibility in speaker selection and wiring.”
> 
> On the 500/1's sonic performance...
> 
> “If you’re more interested in lots of bass with lots of sound quality... this is the niche where the 500/1 is aimed.”
> 
> “With the 500/1, the massiveness (of the bassline) was fully intact, but the articulation of each individual instrument was also audible.”
> 
> “That combination of high power, loud levels, and clean detail is extremely rare, and I felt that the
> 500/1 was superb in that respect.”
> 
> “...the bottom octave was awesome, with good power levels throughout and excellent transient response on Jimmy Chamberlain's kick-drum and
> floor toms..”
> 
> Mobile Entertainment magazine (USA) - Ken Pohlmann



I thought I was a silly O/S geek.  

Even I know the JL amps are fantastic pieces. Do any of you guys really believe their amps sound bad? or that they're not the evolution of the Art series?


----------



## PPI_GUY

I don't think anyone said JL amps sound bad. They have their fans like Audison, TRU, Linear Power, etc. No one brand has a monopoly on sound quality.


----------



## JJDH

Finally hearing the real news with jl, not just the same old crybaby stuff (there is so much better for less money). I have 2 vehicles with complete jl systems. Ford explorer with a 500/1, 300/4 and two 12w3v2. Slot ported jl box. It sounds awesome and when cranked up it has plenty of spl for me, it can actually make your eyes water. The only issue I have ever had is I toasted one of the 12's when young jeezy came out with "hypnotize". That system has been in there for 5 yrs now. In my f150 500/1v2 and 300/4 v2 with two 10w3v3 in a sealed under the backseat box 1.3 cubes. It sounds excellent for the box size with standard "ten" woofers. not to mention the old cherokee with 4 12" w7's and a 500/1 on each sub, unfortunately the jeeps electrical couldnt handle the system.


----------



## WRX/Z28

PPI_GUY said:


> Plus, I can't say I have ever heard people sing the praises of the 'sound' of JL amps versus the Art series.





PPI_GUY said:


> I don't think anyone said JL amps sound bad. They have their fans like Audison, TRU, Linear Power, etc. No one brand has a monopoly on sound quality.



Obviously noone has the monopoly, and no offense, cause I think your a good guy, but i'm tired of statements like the one above. JL amps are widely regarded as sounding excellent, as are 99% of their products. 

Plenty of haters, but it's easy to hate what you can't top... 

The funniest part is when other companies constantly try to compare themselves to JL pronouncing they are better. It's probably the highest compliment JL can get. They are making them the benchmark!


----------



## rommelrommel

rexroadj said:


> Hmm. How convenient!!!! Just kidding! I think 5-6-7 channel amps are something that more companys should invest in. I know that if someone made one powerfull enough it would be utilized by most people. Aside from the rockford power 1000 I am not sure of any that would fit the bill for me. I would prefer something staggerd like 100x2 200x2 and 800x1 at 2ohms... I would pay a lot for something like that. Of course on board xovers would really be the icing on the cake!


I would love to see the Blade SE concept taken a bit further... order a heatsink in the length that you need, and then add as many modules as you need... you'd only have to make a few modules... maybe 50x2, 150x2, 750x1, 1500x1, and make them all a fraction of the length of the longest one.

IE: The 1500x1 might be 12" long, the 750x1 9" long, 150x2 9" long, 50x2 6" long, something like that. If you want steps in the middle for power, bridge a 2 channel. Same power into anything from 2-8 ohm, super efficent, no EQ or DSP on board. 

Would be targetted at a pretty limited market tho lol.


----------



## 89grand

Personally I prefer amplifiers with regulated power supplies, regulated like all of the pre-Power Class PPI amps (the larger PC amps were regulated, the smaller ones weren't, well and the Sedona series wasn't either), some old Alpines, old Hifonics, old Autotek etc. Not talking regulated output like the RIP's setup.

I think it makes more sense than loosely regulated designs, although they are mostly common place these days.

And yes, only regulated amplifiers came close to doubling their power. Un-regulated amps typically deliver about the same amount of power into 2 ohms at 12 volts as they do into 4 ohms at 14.4 volts. They don't come close to doubling their power, maybe 50% more at the most regardless of what they claim the specs are.


----------



## PPI_GUY

WRX/Z28 said:


> Obviously noone has the monopoly, and no offense, cause I think your a good guy, but i'm tired of statements like the one above. JL amps are widely regarded as sounding excellent, as are 99% of their products.
> 
> Plenty of haters, but it's easy to hate what you can't top...
> 
> The funniest part is when other companies constantly try to compare themselves to JL pronouncing they are better. It's probably the highest compliment JL can get. They are making them the benchmark!


I stand by my statement that most who have Art series amps wouldn't sell them and replace them with JL. Those who own the Art's usually won't part with them because they like the tonal textures (some call it warmth) they get with the Art amps. They are pretty diehard and loyal.
And, once again I didn't say that JL stuff doesn't sound good.


----------



## trojan fan

Sounds like a pissing contest to me. why would you want to run an amp down to 1 ohm stereo?


----------



## 89grand

PPI_GUY said:


> I stand by my statement that most who have Art series amps wouldn't sell them and replace them with JL. Those who own the Art's usually won't part with them because they like the tonal textures (some call it warmth) they get with the Art amps. They are pretty diehard and loyal.
> And, once again I didn't say that JL stuff doesn't sound good.


I don't know, I sold two Art amps a little while back. An A200 I bought new back in 1993 and an A600.2 I bought new in 1997. They are just amps. They didn't sound any different than the JBL GTO amps I used to run.


----------



## lucas569

PPI_GUY said:


> I stand by my statement that most who have Art series amps wouldn't sell them and replace them with JL. Those who own the Art's usually won't part with them because they like the tonal textures (some call it warmth) they get with the Art amps. They are pretty diehard and loyal.
> And, once again I didn't say that JL stuff doesn't sound good.


i installed hundreds of ppi amps in the 90's. i would never describe them as "warm" if anything they were just true to the signal, didn't add didn't remove they just amplified... i didn't hear a sonic signature like some amps...


----------



## jel847

i think people are hoping ,like i am that PPI can once again be a respectable brand and offer a great product. I have no first hand experience with the new soundstream but have heard good things about them. The art series amps sounded great but they were a great design( looking) as well. the thought of them doing a modern art series amp is great and i can wait to see what they are all about. I know the turn around at soundstream has alot to do with Grizz Archer being the brand manager. hopefully he is part of ppi as well. that can make all the difference in the world.
as a example there is/was a bicycle company calle SE Racing, they were huge bitd circa. 79 through the early 90's
they made some of the coolest bmx bikes around and every kid in town wanted a PK Ripper back in 84'. around 2000 they were sold to Fuji and went down hill. offered overseas made, dime store bikes. enter 2007 and they hire Todd Lyons as brand manager and he has completely turned the company around and they are once again making great bikes..Todd is a former racer and has been in the sport a long time.
im not comparing bikes to car amps, my point is if the right people are calling the shots they could really turn things around and offer a great product!

for you guys that were aroud i 84 i am attaching a picture of the bike my 8 year old got for christmas, no its not a 30 year old bike.... this is what they are making today!


----------



## jel847

and a good way to look at the JL amps is that they are the evolution of the art series amp. if ppi didnt sell out and were still around that is very well what they could be today!!

just me opinion.


----------



## lucas569

how long before JL sells out? its inevitable....


----------



## jel847

lucas569 said:


> how long before JL sells out? its inevitable....


no its not... and what exactly does "seel out" mean? what if the company is sold and they pass the torch and the new owner carries on the reputation? selling out isnt always the end of the road for a brand or product.


----------



## lucas569

jel847 said:


> no its not...


many a mighty have fallen to the almighty dollar. I shake my head in disgust what happened to PPI, RF,SS,ORION,HIFONICS,CLIF DESIGNS just to name a few....

at the end of the day people have to eat and provide for themselves and loved ones and this economy isn't helping matters. 

Its hard to resist a rights buyout from a wealthy Chinese co, hopefully it will never happen but i wouldn't be surprised.


----------



## jel847

RF still makes a great products!


----------



## lucas569

I know they do but its not what it used to be either...


----------



## msmith

lucas569 said:


> how long before JL sells out? its inevitable....


Wow... talk about convicting us in advance and without a trial. :laugh:

Look, a company is really all about people. JL Audio is privately owned by Lucio Proni and Andy Oxenhorn, two of the best people in this business. There is no venture capital money or any silent partners or any long-term debt. Lucio is the chief engineer of the company... he is hands on with every single product design and loves what he does.

We have a bunch of really great people in this company who share Lucio's and Andy's passion for audio and their vision for a profitable future. We are one of the few companies still building loudspeakers in the U.S. and no company of even twice our size is better equipped or does as much of fundamental research and new technology development as we do.

Don't worry about us.... we're in it for the long haul.


----------



## msmith

lucas569 said:


> many a mighty have fallen to the almighty dollar. I shake my head in disgust what happened to PPI, RF,SS,ORION,HIFONICS,CLIF DESIGNS just to name a few....
> 
> at the end of the day people have to eat and provide for themselves and loved ones and this economy isn't helping matters.
> 
> Its hard to resist a rights buyout from a wealthy Chinese co, hopefully it will never happen but i wouldn't be surprised.


Those companies didn't fall to the almighty dollar... they all struggled to stay in business and tried to overcome bad management, too much debt and tough market conditions and competition. It's not like those guys built the companies in order to sell them... they built them to make money and failed to do so and sought an exit strategy when the crap hit the fan. (RF is still hanging in there).


----------



## jel847

msmith said:


> Look, a company is really all about people.


exactly what im talking about!!!


----------



## lucas569

i hope so manville, you guys are one of the few still standing out of the old skool bunch... 

JL was actually my 1st sub waaaaaay back. (almost 20 yrs God i feel old) 

Whatever happened to that shop from Hollywood,FL they a huge PPI,MB,JL dealer....

didnt the PPI van get robbed? 

i remember living in JAX,FL and being so excited to go to Hollywood,FL only to find out it was boondox! @ least the part i went to lol,never made it to that shop


----------



## W8 a minute

lucas569 said:


> I know they do but its not what it used to be either...


Hmmm. I know a lot of people got butt hurt when Rockford started selling to the big box stores but I was just about to say Rockford was doing a pretty darn good job. They managed to make the jump from specialty stores to big box stores and still keep a good quality record. Sure, they fell into the bling sinkhole for a while but even under the chrome facades the amps still seemed to hold up to abuse when used incorrectly and sound pretty good when used correctly.

OT: Being some of the first people in my area to have JL subs I remember some people asking me why I had a "space shuttle" on my subwoofer. They thought the JL logo looked like a space shuttle.


----------



## jel847

hopefully someone at CES can fill us in on what PPI has going on!


----------



## WRX/Z28

jel847 said:


> hopefully someone at CES can fill us in on what PPI has going on!


In this market, I guarantee they're not reinventing the line. 

I'm sure they're taking some other amp they make, and rebadging it as PPI. 

I wouldn't get my hopes up.


----------



## PPI_GUY

WRX/Z28 said:


> In this market, I guarantee they're not reinventing the line.
> 
> I'm sure they're taking some other amp they make, and rebadging it as PPI.
> 
> I wouldn't get my hopes up.


That goes against what Grizz Archer told me.
I guess we will see very soon, though.


----------



## rexroadj

Dont bother Mark! Ignorance is bliss! This thread is not worth attempting to save, there is way to much useless speculation and rumors....Its as if people want it to fail? WHO CARES! it will be what it will be. They are re-making the old art series....They are re-introducing the line! Thats all!


----------



## 89grand

Apparently, calling any amp with a heat sink that say "PPI Art Series" or whatever it will say on it, to you is a PPI Art Series. To me, it's just another amp with some words on it.

If they are not direct copies of the originals, then they aren't PPI Art Series amps. Would you say a Pyramid circuit board in an Art Series looking heat sink was an Art Series amp?

Not saying they will be as bad as a Pyramid amp, but it's the same idea. Bringing back amps under the Precision Power name is one thing, calling them Art Series amps is something different.


----------



## rexroadj

No its completely different! Its no different then any other company that has different lines......
Art-sq geared
power class-POWER
sedona-entry level

Just like phoenix had different levels, just like JL, just like soundstream, just like Alpine....
PPI has started over under a new company and wants to run the three lines again. Why bother coming up with a new name? 
AND YES IF ITS PPI AND SAYS ART........HMMM its a friggin art series! what are people not understanding here! Is it the art series from 199? No and no one is saying it is. But good bad or indeferent its gonna be a new ppi art series amp. 
Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 89grand

Someone buying the PPI name, and calling whatever amplifier they put in the heat sink that says Art Series on it A PPI Art Series, I guess is one, simply because that's what it says on it. To me though, it's no different than me buying a JBL amp and silk screening McIntosh on it and then calling it a McIntosh.


Anyway, who cares really. Hopefully they sell well, and hopefully they actually end up being decent amps.


----------



## rexroadj

Well I think the silkscreening thing is a stretch for a comparison...I think if JBL bought Mcintosh and literally rebaged a jbl with a nice blue glass logo then that would be pretty crappy. I dont think this falls into that. That kinda condemns what they have done (which NO ONE on here has any FACTS about yet) and thats my biggest problem with all this. If people want to believe they are going to take a Power Acoustic and put ppi art on it then thats fine....dumb but fine! There is no basis for this and its a pretty crappy rumor to start. They didnt do it with the soundstream ref, instead the put forth a hell of a product. They proved to me they can make a high end amp and hope they continue the concept with the ppi label. I dont know if they will or not. I would like to see the art series of the same quality as the ref amps but maybe make it all about the power and sq and do without all the xovers etc.....just an amp like the old ones...and the argument about them using these names strictly for sales purposes can be had, although I dont see the point. I kinda like that they are using the same names....but I dont expect the same product for both good and bad reasons.


----------



## rexroadj

Also to add, I am not trying to be harsh to you (89grand) I have read several of your postings and respect your opinion and information you have. I am just think its kinda sad that a new line is being condemned before they are out just because they are using an old name again. I dont know why people want to see things fail so much! Anyway I am sorry if I got out of control on this topic! 
Just when I think I'm out.......They pull me back in!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 89grand

It's cool man, they're just amps. I'll with hold any more judgment until they actually come out and have been looked at.


----------



## jel847

somebody throw anothe log on the fire.......


----------



## rexroadj

My little birdy told me that they would not be better then the ref...I think that was there original goal (not sure how much better they can get it?) The art series might not neccessarily be there top dog? we will have to wait and see. I would like to have the same type of amp......no xovers, etc......Just power and tru sound.....Maybe they will bring back some tubes!!!! just kidding, that has a farts chance in a windstorm!! And please no more logs  my ticker cant take it!


----------



## PPI_GUY

Hopefully my final post on this subject...
I guess today (Jan. 7th) is the opening day of CES and I know PPI and SoundStream will be sharing a booth. We have some regular posters on this board who will be attending so, hopefully they can give us more info on this subject. Everything I know came from Grizz Archer and he seems very passionate about both SS and the new PPI stuff. 
There even exists atleast a slight possibility that there might not even be a new Art series in 2010. They "might" not arrive until 2011. I think we will obviously know very, very soon. 
If I stepped on anyone's toes or came across as an a$$, I sincerely apologize. It honestly wasn't my intent.


----------



## rexroadj

Its funny how they guy who started it was the only smart one who avoided this thread  bravo to you my friend, bravo!


----------



## ChrisB

I take what Grizz Archer says with loads of skepticism. After all, when we laughed at him for the +/- 3dB rating in the SS Reference's rated frequency response reproduction range, he responded by removing said spec from the website and the documentation. 

Too bad the only magazine doing reviews these days is PAS magazine and guess who advertises heavily in their magazine... In other words, I find it hard for a review to be non-biased when advertising dollars are resting on it in one of the sole remaining car audio publications out there.


----------



## gitmobass

We're just going to have to wait for someone relatively unbiased to buy one and give us a review...


----------



## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> No its completely different! Its no different then any other company that has different lines......
> Art-sq geared
> power class-POWER
> sedona-entry level
> 
> Just like phoenix had different levels, just like JL, just like soundstream, just like Alpine....
> PPI has started over under a new company and wants to run the three lines again. Why bother coming up with a new name?
> AND YES IF ITS PPI AND SAYS ART........HMMM its a friggin art series! what are people not understanding here! Is it the art series from 199? No and no one is saying it is. But good bad or indeferent its gonna be a new ppi art series amp.
> Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


What the hell are you talking about. The power class was the replacement for the Art series. Sedona's were PPI's basic no frills line (no regulated supplys). 

You really believe Art series were the SQ line and the Power class were the "power line"? 

Oh my god you guys are killing me. 


Wow. This is crazy. People seem more bent on the name and cosmetics than the substance and legacy. 

89grand hit it right on the head. 

If I were to go buy Adire Audio (we all know the brand is for sale), and I were to contract some build house in asia to make me a subwoofer with 0 adire technology that said Adire on it, do you think the Adire die hards would buy it?

I always placed more faith in the PPI fans. I thought most of us appreciated these amps for their robust construction, solid engineering and good sound quality. 

What this thread is teaching me is that noone cares what was in them, you guys only care about the pretty graphics and the name on the outside (and maybe a little bit of forum cred). 

Those who get it, and want to buy a new amp that is the evolution of the art series will buy JL's amps. 

Those who hate on JL, and don't want to beleive that the essence of the art series is alive in their amps, those who like the pretty circles and squares on an amp that has nothing to do with the original art series other than the name and cosmetics can go buy whatever else they like. 

This thread is very disheartening for one of the bigger PPI Art fan's... I'm half considering selling them all...









Long live the art series, and the few people who know what they went on to become.


----------



## rexroadj

"If I were to go buy Adire Audio (we all know the brand is for sale), and I were to contract some build house in asia to make me a subwoofer with 0 adire technology that said Adire on it, do you think the Adire die hards would buy it?" 

No one is saying they or anyone else should go buy it because its a ppi art series.....Your only reading what you want to.....instantly poo pooing the product before its out, just because of the fact another company bought it is just completely ignorant. That is the point to all this..... 
I am also certain no one is after another pastel and fugly looking amp like the art series and that would be another thing that would keep me from buying one. I dont care what used to be in them, I am concerned with what is going to be in them. People should not be so concerned with whether or not it will be just like the old art series... PPI is just saying they are trying to put out another high end product. Hence the name!!! The jl amps are great (if they made a more powerfull 2 channel I would be sold).


----------



## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> "If I were to go buy Adire Audio (we all know the brand is for sale), and I were to contract some build house in asia to make me a subwoofer with 0 adire technology that said Adire on it, do you think the Adire die hards would buy it?"
> 
> No one is saying they or anyone else should go buy it because its a ppi art series.....Your only reading what you want to.....instantly poo pooing the product before its out, just because of the fact another company bought it is just completely ignorant. That is the point to all this.....
> I am also certain no one is after another pastel and fugly looking amp like the art series and that would be another thing that would keep me from buying one. I dont care what used to be in them, I am concerned with what is going to be in them. People should not be so concerned with whether or not it will be just like the old art series... PPI is just saying they are trying to put out another high end product. Hence the name!!! The jl amps are great (if they made a more powerfull 2 channel I would be sold).


and who is still there from the original PPI? Is there a single person from the original company when the art series were there?

I'm not bashing any new product I haven't seen... Where did you see that at all? 

I'm just pointing out that it's about as close to being the same thing as the original art series as a Pioneer amp is. 

Would anyone be talking about these at all if they were named Burgle Flap amplifiers instead of "Precision Power"? 

This is sad...


----------



## rexroadj

Yeah it is sad! WHO CARES WHO IS STILL THERE!!!!!!!!!!! Its not the same company but that dosent mean its not going to be worth a damn. When you make a comment like the adire reference what else could you mean by it? Your saying no one that liked the old arts will give a damn about the new ones because the company was bought by a larger corp. Am I wrong? did you not say that, and is that not what it means? I loved the old arts and am anxious to see what they do with this "resorection" so to speak. The art series were high end sq amps and assume that there goal is to make another high end sq amp. I dont care what the hell they call it, what dumb graphics they put on it. I wanna see what they do with it and am not going to put it on a pedastel because of the company that bought it, nor am I gonna piss on it for the same reason.


----------



## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> Yeah it is sad! WHO CARES WHO IS STILL THERE!!!!!!!!!!! Its not the same company but that dosent mean its not going to be worth a damn. When you make a comment like the adire reference what else could you mean by it? Your saying no one that liked the old arts will give a damn about the new ones because the company was bought by a larger corp. Am I wrong? did you not say that, and is that not what it means? I loved the old arts and am anxious to see what they do with this "resorection" so to speak. The art series were high end sq amps and assume that there goal is to make another high end sq amp. I dont care what the hell they call it, what dumb graphics they put on it. I wanna see what they do with it and am not going to put it on a pedastel because of the company that bought it, nor am I gonna piss on it for the same reason.


Anyone interested in what the amps guts are going to be like cares who is there, and who is designing the new stuff. 

The Adire reference was pretty easy to understand. I explained it pretty well I thought... 

I never said they weren't going to be worth a damn. I simply said that anyone looking for the amps to be the same as the original arts was going to be in for a disapointment. The closest thing to the original arts that will be produced are the JL amps. 

I don't know how much more I can clarify this for you. 

Design wise, these will be as far removed from the art series as any other amp (except JL). Assuming they will be "high end" because the original art's were "high end" is silly. 

What is the deal with the design. What are the design goals? What class are the amps even? Does anyone caught up in the hype have any idea of anything other than that the PPI Art name is involved? If they do, they aren't spilling the beans. 

Hype hype hype. Stupid overblown hype over nothing. 

The new soundstream ref's suffer from the same problem. Internally, they are as close to a SS Ref amp as any amp I build on my desk at home... (again not saying they are bad amps, but if they were that great, they wouldn't need to ride on the SS Ref name (same goes for the Arts). 

Make sense now?


----------



## WRX/Z28

For all the hype on here, you'd think they'd at least maintain the old website. It's 2010 and the site looks the same as it did when DEI owned them in 2007.


----------



## rexroadj

WRX/Z28 said:


> Anyone interested in what the amps guts are going to be like cares who is there, and who is designing the new stuff.
> 
> The Adire reference was pretty easy to understand. I explained it pretty well I thought...
> 
> I understood it fine, I just think its dumb!
> 
> I never said they weren't going to be worth a damn. I simply said that anyone looking for the amps to be the same as the original arts was going to be in for a disapointment. The closest thing to the original arts that will be produced are the JL amps.
> 
> I know its not going to be the same thing....its just a name but that doesnt mean it wont be equaly as good or better (not likely but who knows). How hard is that for you to understand!
> 
> I don't know how much more I can clarify this for you.
> Do not attempt to talk down to me I dont need your clarification, I think your points have nothing to do with this!
> 
> Design wise, these will be as far removed from the art series as any other amp (except JL). Assuming they will be "high end" because the original art's were "high end" is silly.
> 
> There goal is to have a high end line (ART, I was told there might be a power class, and there might be a sedona and they fall in that order as far as there market) So there is nothing silly about it as far as I know its there plan!
> 
> What is the deal with the design. What are the design goals? What class are the amps even? Does anyone caught up in the hype have any idea of anything other than that the PPI Art name is involved? If they do, they aren't spilling the beans.
> 
> I dont know, there is no hype, there are just some people saying dumb things like "oh its just gonna be rebadged xyz" or its not going to be just like the old art series because it doesnt have the same people working on it. I am going to say this one more time and hope to god someone actually reads, gets a clue, and understands this! PPI was boughy by a large company, they want to put out some new stuff. One of the lines might be an art series. Yes they are using the old names......why? hmmm because they can.
> 
> Hype hype hype. Stupid overblown hype over nothing.
> There is no hype just useless badgering!
> 
> The new soundstream ref's suffer from the same problem. Internally, they are as close to a SS Ref amp as any amp I build on my desk at home... (again not saying they are bad amps, but if they were that great, they wouldn't need to ride on the SS Ref name (same goes for the Arts).
> 
> Why not use the name? they wanted to have a series of higher end amps in there lineup and why not pay a tribute to a great sq amp. The only person that seams to have a hard time with the name is you! Who cares what they call it, get over it. Go sell your arts and replace them with jl. No one gives a rats ass!
> Make sense now?


DIDDO!!!


----------



## rexroadj

WRX/Z28 said:


> For all the hype on here, you'd think they'd at least maintain the old website. It's 2010 and the site looks the same as it did when DEI owned them in 2007.


No argument there! WTF!!!


----------



## 89grand

I'm thinking about buying a Toyota Corolla, doing some body work and some other things to it...I'm going to call it a Hemi 'Cuda!

We all know Hemi 'Cuda's rule!


----------



## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> I am going to say this one more time and hope to god someone actually reads, gets a clue, and understands this! PPI was boughy by a large company, they want to put out some new stuff. One of the lines might be an art series. Yes they are using the old names......why? hmmm because they can.


Please clarify, The Precision Power *NAME* was bought (by Kole/Power Acoustic of all people). PPI is long gone. The essence is still alive in... (i'll refrain from repeating myself *coughJLcough*)

My apologies if you felt I was talking down to you, but your attitude may have something to do with that. As does your twisting of my words. 

Find where I bashed the new amps at all. Find where I bashed anything... 

I felt the need to clarify myself because you are misinterpretting me, and twisting what i'm saying. 

Carry on with your new forum boner!

*All hail the return of PPI! It's return to glory is close at hand! The art series are back! Go buy them, and ignore the power acoustic/kole/epsilon stamp on them. lol*


----------



## WRX/Z28

89grand said:


> I'm thinking about buying a Toyota Corolla, doing some body work and some other things to it...I'm going to call it a Hemi 'Cuda!
> 
> We all know Hemi 'Cuda's rule!


Dude! The Hemi 'Cuda is coming back? Toyota is building it? 

I'm sure it will be a great car! Toyota is exactly who I would trust to make a classic muscle car! 

With a name like Hemi Cuda, and Toyota's desire to build a true "muscle car", i'm sure it'll be an authentic product. Where do I sign up for one? I can't wait to see it. The 'Cuda is back!!!!

(Dripping Sarcasm in case anyone couldn't tell)


----------



## rexroadj

What ever helps you sleep at night


----------



## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> What ever helps you sleep at night


I sleep very well knowing that if I ever need to replace my arts with the next closest thing, I know where I can really find it (hint: it's not at epsilon).  :laugh:


----------



## rexroadj

WOW!!!!!!! thats great! 
ya done yet?


----------



## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> WOW!!!!!!! thats great!
> ya done yet?


LOL, i've only been replying to you buddy.


----------



## ChrisB

I'll admit to bashing the Epsilon owned PPI brand before it ever came out. You want to know why? It is because of what Grizz Archer wrote on another forum: "I bailed from the DIY forum because everybody there is a freaking genuis and will only buy *****d out stuff on eBay. Stupid primadonnas."

Here is the thread for you nonbelievers: Car Audio Forum - CarAudio.com - View Single Post - New Soundstream Reference Amp Same As The Old?

Since he collectively decided to insult each and every single member here, I just can't let him live that one down.


----------



## rexroadj

I agree with him!


----------



## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> I agree with him!


The same could be said of you sir... lol


----------



## ChrisB

I even got into it with him (Grizz) on another forum because he flat out stated that there would be NO internet sales of the Reference line. He crawfished when I asked him how come Woofers Etc. was advertising Soundstream Reference. He went on about how the current economic situation and the lack of availability in all areas facilitated a just decision in allowing a retailer to sell their product online.

I wish I could find that thread but that particular forum's search is FUBAR at the moment.


----------



## 89grand

I have a spy shot of the first NEW PPI Art Series amps!

They're ****ing sweet!


----------



## WRX/Z28

ChrisB said:


> I even got into it with him (Grizz) on another forum because he flat out stated that there would be NO internet sales of the Reference line. He crawfished when I asked him how come Woofers Etc. was advertising Soundstream Reference. He went on about how the current economic situation and the lack of availability in all areas facilitated a just decision in allowing a retailer to sell their product online.
> 
> I wish I could find that thread but that particular forum's search is FUBAR at the moment.


Not trying to defend him, but Woofers lists a lot of stuff for sale that they have 0 or near 0 access to... Then when you call them, they try to sell you something else, and badmouth the product you wanted to buy. 

Sounds like he sold out to them though...


----------



## ChrisB

:laugh:


----------



## WRX/Z28

89grand said:


> I have a spy shot of the first NEW PPI Art Series amps!
> 
> They're ****ing sweet!


Dude! Who cares who went where, and who made the original guts? That thing says PPI on it! It has to be good! 


Where can I buy one? Can I get 4000watts stamped on the same amp?


----------



## ChrisB

WRX/Z28 said:


> Not trying to defend him, but Woofers lists a lot of stuff for sale that they have 0 or near 0 access to... Then when you call them, they try to sell you something else, and badmouth the product you wanted to buy.
> 
> Sounds like he sold out to them though...


That was another bone I wanted to pick with him, but he stopped responding to me. IIRC, Woofers is right down the road from Soundstream and Woofers DID NOT appear to be representing themselves as an authorized dealer at the time. 

So does that mean that SS sold out to them, allowing them to sell the product online, but SS won't have to support it? If that is indeed the case, I have absolutely ZERO respect for a manufacturer that does something like that. IMHO that is EXTREMELY SHADY and pretty much screws their authorized Brick and mortar dealers!


----------



## WRX/Z28

ChrisB said:


> That was another bone I wanted to pick with him, but he stopped responding to me. IIRC, Woofers is right down the road from Soundstream and Woofers DID NOT appear to be representing themselves as an authorized dealer at the time.
> 
> So does that mean that SS sold out to them, allowing them to sell the product online, but SS won't have to support it? If that is indeed the case, I have absolutely ZERO respect for a manufacturer that does something like that. IMHO that is EXTREMELY SHADY and pretty much screws their authorized Brick and mortar dealers!


I don't know anything about that. If that's the case, I'd agree with you 100%


----------



## WRX/Z28

Wait. That amp is their high end line? It can't be an art! It has crossovers!

Is that one an a/d/s/ / PPI / Orion joint venture? The splashes of color tell you that power urcoustic means business with a "high end" amp.


----------



## 89grand

WRX/Z28 said:


> Wait. That amp is their high end line? It can't be an art! It has crossovers!
> 
> Is that one an a/d/s/ / PPI / Orion joint venture? The splashes of color tell you that power urcoustic means business with a "high end" amp.


These are a new "improved" version of the famed PPI Art Series. They have everything you loved about the original, with the added extras todays consumer demands. They have 6db crossovers, they make way more as can you see by the 2000 watts boldly printed on the amps chassis, in fact they are severely underrated. Also, you know SQ is built right in because it says so right on the amp. 

This is a pre-production model as the production versions will have .3 after the model number.

These are the best amps PPI never made!


----------



## JayBee

I'm not sure hohw i feel about a 5Q amp


----------



## 89grand

JayBee said:


> I'm not sure hohw i feel about a 5Q amp


5Q is 5 times the sound quality of SQ!


----------



## WRX/Z28

" Soundstream Reference 4.400 ( 1 2) 
rexroadj "

"SOUNSTREAM REFERENCE 4.920 Review ( 1 2) 
rexroadj "

Your hardheaded defense of another Epsilon product makes sense now. I couldn't figure out why you were so irrationally defensive about an amp you don't even own. Now I see that you do... just with SS written on it.


----------



## WRX/Z28

89grand said:


> These are a new "improved" version of the famed PPI Art Series. They have everything you loved about the original, with the added extras todays consumer demands. They have 6db crossovers, they make way more as can you see by the 2000 watts boldly printed on the amps chassis, in fact they are severely underrated. Also, you know SQ is built right in because it says so right on the amp.
> 
> This is a pre-production model as the production versions will have .3 after the model number.
> 
> These are the best amps PPI never made!


I want your version. At least if I buy that one, I won't have to be compared to the likes of Kole or Power Acoustic. 



JayBee said:


> I'm not sure hohw i feel about a 5Q amp


I don't understand what it means. It has to be something fancy!



89grand said:


> 5Q is 5 times the sound quality of SQ!


That's less fancy than I had hoped for. 

I thought 5Q was going to be fancy like... 5 times the q for EQ adjustment. You can use one knob to adjust 20hz to 10k, and then another knob for 10k to 20k. lol


----------



## lucas569

jel847 said:


> somebody throw anothe log on the fire.......


happy now?


----------



## rexroadj

Yeah I, unlike you people, I actually tried it before I ran my mouth about it....did you really have to look up to see that I had those.....I am pretty sure I mentioned it several times on this thread. Proving the point that just because its from epsilon does not mean its gonna be bad. I did not get them because I thought it would be just like the ss ref of old. I bought it because I thought it would be a good amp. It is! But your guessing and random ignorant comments have much more substance! Of course the new ppi amp is gonna be the same as the ref amp....after all its just another power acoustic amp! Oh and in case you couldnt tell....that was dripping with sarcasm! Keep it up donkey! Just keep adding more inteligent insight to the topic!


----------



## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> Yeah I, unlike you people, I actually tried it before I ran my mouth about it....did you really have to look up to see that I had those.....I am pretty sure I mentioned it several times on this thread. Proving the point that just because its from epsilon does not mean its gonna be bad. I did not get them because I thought it would be just like the ss ref of old. I bought it because I thought it would be a good amp. It is! But your guessing and random ignorant comments have much more substance! Of course the new ppi amp is gonna be the same as the ref amp....after all its just another power acoustic amp! Oh and in case you couldnt tell....that was dripping with sarcasm! Keep it up donkey! Just keep adding more inteligent insight to the topic!


Sorry man. In my eyes, your credibility is lost. 

Other than mentioning the other quality brands associated with SS and PPI, I've not bashed the product in any way. Get that through your head. 

Oh yeah, and way to bite off of what I said earlier


PPI is dead! Long live PPI!


----------



## rexroadj

I dont see how I lost credibility, I dont think its about that. You just cant stand to have someone disagree with your opinion. I dont care whats in your eyes! You have your opinions and I have mine, and we dont like each others.....I could care less! 

"I want your version. At least if I buy that one, I won't have to be compared to the likes of Kole or Power Acoustic"

:lol:but at least you didnt bash em before you heard em!


----------



## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> I dont see how I lost credibility, I dont think its about that. You just cant stand to have someone disagree with your opinion. I dont care whats in your eyes! You have your opinions and I have mine, and we dont like each others.....I could care less!
> 
> "I want your version. At least if I buy that one, I won't have to be compared to the likes of Kole or Power Acoustic"
> 
> :lol:but at least you didnt bash em before you heard em!


 


WRX/Z28 said:


> Other than mentioning the other quality brands associated with SS and PPI, I've not bashed the product in any way. Get that through your head.




Ok, so let's recap. 


PPI is around from the 80's through the late '90's as a well regarded amplifier manufacturer (among other things)

PPI's design team moves on to Xtant, and then JL audio where they continue to evolve on the idea's behind PPI's art series design. 

PPI's *NAME* moves on to directed where it's turned into a clone of all their other audio brands. 

Rexroadj begins to swing from Epsilon's nuts starting with their "new" soundstream products. 

PPI's *NAME* is sold to Epsilon. Makers of fine products like Kole/Power Acoustic.

Rexroadj swings from PPI's nuts too. After all, they're designed by... uhm. Wait, who designed them again? 

Come to think of it, who "designed" the current soundstream amps? 



Does that just about sum it up?


----------



## rexroadj

Not really....no but again its all about what you want to see. I never said the ppi amps were gonna be good. All I have said from the start is that just because epsilon bought them does not mean that its destined to make crap.....So you have to know the name of every engineer involved with an amp for it to be worth a damn..... Yeah that makes sense? If I want to swing from nuts I will call your mother! you putz! Its people like you that make this forum so annoying....your arrogant and elitist attitude with no basis for it is just so useless. I am done with you and this thread. In case you havent noticed it is going no where but round and round. I guess what we all have learned from you is that without ppi's design team there are no good amplifiers to be had unless they have a team that you know all there names. I guess its just JL now.....no one else can make anything worth a damn. man that really kinda corners the market......Are you sure your not swinging or god knows what off there nuts? GFY


----------



## WRX/Z28




----------



## 89grand

I wouldn't call Power Acoustiks ****, they make that line of amplifiers known as BAMF (*B*ad *A*ss *M*other *F*ucker). Now you just can't go calling any ordinary amplifier BAMF, they have to walk the walk too!

bamf amp


----------



## ChrisB

Why does it look like they ripped off Rockford Fosgate's current heat sink design?


----------



## 89grand

ChrisB said:


> Why does it look like they ripped off Rockford Fosgate's current heat sink design?


Well, the RF amps are BAMF's so it doesn't matter.


----------



## lucas569

ChrisB said:


> Why does it look like they ripped off Rockford Fosgate's current heat sink design?


cause they did


----------



## WRX/Z28

POWER ACOUSTIK OV1-5500D "Guts" - Car Audio Forum - CarAudio.com


See post #11. I thought SS amps weren't rebadged Power Acoustiks.


----------



## HondAudio

Kole and Power Acoustik? Are they anything like "Kenford" and "Rockwood" amps?


----------



## WRX/Z28

Bamf... is that an onomatopoeia for the sound the amp makes when it Bamf's?


----------



## ryan s

Dodge Charger











Dodge Charger











Dodge Charger











Let's recap

*Original*:
V8 RWD coupe

*80s*:
4cyl (turbo) FWD coupe

*Today*:
V8 RWD sedan

Like they say...nothing's ever as good as the original...


----------



## manstretch

It would be nice if they stuck with the old heat sink design... I kinda liked the contemporary 80's look.


----------



## WLDock

PPI is long gone. If this new company wants to put _"ART SERIES"_ on their amps, thats cool...they payed for that right. If the amps are good....people will buy them. If not...people will let them know by keeping their money in their pockets.

Yeah, We can talk about the good old days all day long but due to bad management, tough car audio high end US marketplace, inflation, and a million other things.....many of those companies are GONE!

You want a USA built amp? You better support one of the last few current companies around or check on ebay, forums, craigslist, etc for some used "old school" power. Old SOUNDSTREAM, PPI, Phoenix Gold will NEVER return! Let's move on.....

Can current amps be made that sound good and are better in some ways than some of those old school amps? This is very possible....engineers have not all of a sudden gone stupid. Modern digital technology offers the ability to control an amps operation in practically a few chips vs. what was possible for the money years ago. Also, modern production and quality standard makes it possible to mass produce products with very low failure rates. Hand soldering is not the last word in PCB production.

We just have to get past the good old days....and look at current products for what they are worth. I would love to have the choice again between high end Soundstream, PPI, and Phoenix Gold but modern iterations of those amps would be very pricey. Being a poor SOB i have to reley on quality mid-line product for power. Nevertheless, if a find some spare change someday, I would like to try out the Arc Audio SE line. And quiet as it is kept....I would actually like to try out the new JL Audio HD line....and I never really cared too much about wanted a full range switching amp before. If that things sounds good who knows? Here is a company that has a past PPI design engineer, has major capital, and has put out some solid power amps over the years. The STASH amps seem to have a problem free past and were just good solid amps.* Is it possible for their HD amp to sound as good as an old PPI Art Series amp?* Modern ICE vs. Old School sonic excellence! Will have to listen to one of the HD amps here soon. 

So, there still are GOOD products around. If PPI, PG, SS make a comeback...that would be awesome for the industry. If not then.....that would not be anything shocking. When the products were good the companies could not turn enough of a profit and manage to stay afloat so....how much product were they really selling?


----------



## WLDock

ryan s said:


> Like they say...nothing's ever as good as the original...


While I love old school American muscle....I think American cars today are the 'BEST" cars ever made in some ways. Even better than cars made just five to twenty years ago. But, it almost seems like it is too late in some ways. Change has began....and I hope it works out for the best.

nevertheless, right now if I had up to about $50K to spend I would have no problem driving past a Toyota, Lexus, BMW, dealership to get to a GM, FORD, or Chrysler dealership to look at a Buick Enclave, LaCrosse, Chevy Camaro, Pontiac G8, Cadillac CTS, Ford Taurus SHO, Mustang, Flex, or Mecury Milan, or Dodge Charger SRT8.


----------



## roxj01

so ces is over and still no pics of this elusive new ppi amp?????


----------



## WRX/Z28

WLDock said:


> PPI is long gone. If this new company wants to put _"ART SERIES"_ on their amps, thats cool...they payed for that right. If the amps are good....people will buy them. If not...people will let them know by keeping their money in their pockets.
> 
> Yeah, We can talk about the good old days all day long but due to bad management, tough car audio high end US marketplace, inflation, and a million other things.....many of those companies are GONE!
> 
> You want a USA built amp? You better support one of the last few current companies around or check on ebay, forums, craigslist, etc for some used "old school" power. Old SOUNDSTREAM, PPI, Phoenix Gold will NEVER return! Let's move on.....
> 
> Can current amps be made that sound good and are better in some ways than some of those old school amps? This is very possible....engineers have not all of a sudden gone stupid. Modern digital technology offers the ability to control an amps operation in practically a few chips vs. what was possible for the money years ago. Also, modern production and quality standard makes it possible to mass produce products with very low failure rates. Hand soldering is not the last word in PCB production.
> 
> We just have to get past the good old days....and look at current products for what they are worth. I would love to have the choice again between high end Soundstream, PPI, and Phoenix Gold but modern iterations of those amps would be very pricey. Being a poor SOB i have to reley on quality mid-line product for power. Nevertheless, if a find some spare change someday, I would like to try out the Arc Audio SE line. And quiet as it is kept....I would actually like to try out the new JL Audio HD line....and I never really cared too much about wanted a full range switching amp before. If that things sounds good who knows? Here is a company that has a past PPI design engineer, has major capital, and has put out some solid power amps over the years. The STASH amps seem to have a problem free past and were just good solid amps.* Is it possible for their HD amp to sound as good as an old PPI Art Series amp?* Modern ICE vs. Old School sonic excellence! Will have to listen to one of the HD amps here soon.
> 
> So, there still are GOOD products around. If PPI, PG, SS make a comeback...that would be awesome for the industry. If not then.....that would not be anything shocking. When the products were good the companies could not turn enough of a profit and manage to stay afloat so....how much product were they really selling?





WLDock said:


> While I love old school American muscle....I think American cars today are the 'BEST" cars ever made in some ways. Even better than cars made just five to twenty years ago. But, it almost seems like it is too late in some ways. Change has began....and I hope it works out for the best.
> 
> nevertheless, right now if I had up to about $50K to spend I would have no problem driving past a Toyota, Lexus, BMW, dealership to get to a GM, FORD, or Chrysler dealership to look at a Buick Enclave, LaCrosse, Chevy Camaro, Pontiac G8, Cadillac CTS, Ford Taurus SHO, Mustang, Flex, or Mecury Milan, or Dodge Charger SRT8.


Agreed 100% on both posts. Could not agree more.

Oh, and Yes on the bolded part. From experience.


----------



## ryan s

WLDock said:


> PPI is long gone. If this new company wants to put _"ART SERIES"_ on their amps, thats cool...they payed for that right. If the amps are good....people will buy them. If not...people will let them know by keeping their money in their pockets.
> 
> Yeah, We can talk about the good old days all day long but due to bad management, tough car audio high end US marketplace, inflation, and a million other things.....many of those companies are GONE!
> 
> You want a USA built amp? You better support one of the last few current companies around or check on ebay, forums, craigslist, etc for some used "old school" power. Old SOUNDSTREAM, PPI, Phoenix Gold will NEVER return! Let's move on.....
> 
> Can current amps be made that sound good and are better in some ways than some of those old school amps? This is very possible....engineers have not all of a sudden gone stupid. Modern digital technology offers the ability to control an amps operation in practically a few chips vs. what was possible for the money years ago. Also, modern production and quality standard makes it possible to mass produce products with very low failure rates. Hand soldering is not the last word in PCB production.
> 
> We just have to get past the good old days....and look at current products for what they are worth. I would love to have the choice again between high end Soundstream, PPI, and Phoenix Gold but modern iterations of those amps would be very pricey. Being a poor SOB i have to reley on quality mid-line product for power. Nevertheless, if a find some spare change someday, I would like to try out the Arc Audio SE line. And quiet as it is kept....I would actually like to try out the new JL Audio HD line....and I never really cared too much about wanted a full range switching amp before. If that things sounds good who knows? Here is a company that has a past PPI design engineer, has major capital, and has put out some solid power amps over the years. The STASH amps seem to have a problem free past and were just good solid amps.* Is it possible for their HD amp to sound as good as an old PPI Art Series amp?* Modern ICE vs. Old School sonic excellence! Will have to listen to one of the HD amps here soon.
> 
> So, there still are GOOD products around. If PPI, PG, SS make a comeback...that would be awesome for the industry. If not then.....that would not be anything shocking. When the products were good the companies could not turn enough of a profit and manage to stay afloat so....how much product were they really selling?


That's what I'm doing at the moment...locating Zeds 

It's the same deal with camera equipment...I can't afford the latest and greatest...but I can afford the latest and greatest from 1983   The feel of quality of old stuff is second to none. Of course, there are some exceptions these days.

If I could afford a JL HD, I'd probably go for it due to the efficiency. I'm considering a pair of Premier's down the the line when I buy the AE IB15s...run 300w to each. No way would I do that with all other A/Bs in the car.


WLDock said:


> While I love old school American muscle....I think American cars today are the 'BEST" cars ever made in some ways. Even better than cars made just five to twenty years ago. But, it almost seems like it is too late in some ways. Change has began....and I hope it works out for the best.
> 
> nevertheless, right now if I had up to about $50K to spend I would have no problem driving past a Toyota, Lexus, BMW, dealership to get to a GM, FORD, or Chrysler dealership to look at a Buick Enclave, LaCrosse, Chevy Camaro, Pontiac G8, Cadillac CTS, Ford Taurus SHO, Mustang, Flex, or Mecury Milan, or Dodge Charger SRT8.


I would agree...cars keep lasting longer and require less maintenance. My grandpa still tells the story of how they would park their Model T for the winter, drain all the fluids, and use the horses to get around 

I thought I was the only one who liked Flexes? :surprised: Goofy looking box, but with some additions, it would look pretty cool. Damn expensive though...like $40k for an SEL AWD :surprised:


----------



## WLDock

ryan s said:


> I thought I was the only one who liked Flexes? :surprised: Goofy looking box, but with some additions, it would look pretty cool. Damn expensive though...like $40k for an SEL AWD :surprised:


You know what that Flex remindes me of? Back in the day guys used to lower Jeep wagoneers around here in Detroit. Yeah that thing is $40K but it is a good value compared to others in thre class.


----------



## ryan s

WLDock said:


> You know what that Flex remindes me of? Back in the day guys used to lower Jeep wagoneers around here in Detroit. Yeah that thing is $40K but it is a good value compared to others in thre class.


Aha...yeah, they do resemble the Wagoneers. I still see one once in a great while...they're still around.

I wonder how much the Flex will depreciate in the next 2-3 years. I wouldn't spend over $20k on one...I'm waiting for an 07-08 Acura RL to become a nice, 3-5 year old "pre-owned" car


----------



## WRX/Z28

I love the timeless look of the old Jeep Wagoneers and Cherokee's.


----------



## W8 a minute

WRX/Z28 said:


> POWER ACOUSTIK OV1-5500D "Guts" - Car Audio Forum - CarAudio.com
> 
> 
> See post #11. I thought SS amps weren't rebadged Power Acoustiks.



You missed post 14 and 17. And besides I think we were talking about the new Reference series which that amplifier is not.


----------



## WRX/Z28

W8 a minute said:


> You missed post 14 and 17. And besides I think we were talking about the new Reference series which that amplifier is not.


Nope. I saw them. Minor variations do not = hugely different amplifier. 

Regardless of what it is, it's a Soundstream badged product that uses the same board and construction (IE most likely the same buildhouse) as a power acoustik. 

I would bet money that epsilon did not design an all new amplifier to release as a ppi.


----------



## 89grand

WRX/Z28 said:


> I love the timeless look of the old Jeep Wagoneers and Cherokee's.


Me too. Unfortunately I sold my 1989 Grand Wagoneer a while back. I had owned it for about 8 years, but I just have too many cars and it was starting to need too much work. I miss it still though, I had a ton of fun in that Jeep, but I do have a little more fun in my Wrangler these days.


----------



## WRX/Z28

I used to have an '87 Commanche that I miss. It sat up on 31's, and was a great looking truck. Different than all the me too s-10's, rangers and toyota's.


----------



## W8 a minute

WRX/Z28 said:


> Nope. I saw them. Minor variations do not = hugely different amplifier.
> 
> Regardless of what it is, it's a Soundstream badged product that uses the same board and construction (IE most likely the same buildhouse) as a power acoustik.
> 
> I would bet money that epsilon did not design an all new amplifier to release as a ppi.


Please stick to facts in the correct context. That's not a Reference series amp in that picture. He said there would be unique boards to the Reference series. Not an old series that was released PREVIOUS to his posts here and obviously aimed at base heads. Unless you have some proof that the Reference series boards are used in another amplifier? 

Bashing a product before it is released is like judging the sound quality of a vehicle just by looking at some pictures of it on the internet.


----------



## WRX/Z28

W8 a minute said:


> Please stick to facts in the correct context. That's not a Reference series amp in that picture. He said there would be unique boards to the Reference series. Not an old series that was released PREVIOUS to his posts here and obviously aimed at base heads. Unless you have some proof that the Reference series boards are used in another amplifier?
> 
> Bashing a product before it is released is like judging the sound quality of a vehicle just by looking at some pictures of it on the internet.


WTF!?! 

What part of my facts were not correct? 

That amp was badged Soundstream, no? 

The boards were very similar, no? 

I did not state that it was a reference amp, no?

I did not bash any product, other than to make a comparison between a power acoustik amp and a soundstream, yes? 

Get off your high horse. I'll limit my expletive's, but you clearly are deserving of them here...


----------



## ChrisB

All right CES is over, WHERE ARE THE PICS?


----------



## W8 a minute

WRX/Z28 said:


> WTF!?!
> 
> What part of my facts were not correct?
> 
> That amp was badged Soundstream, no?
> 
> The boards were very similar, no?
> 
> I did not state that it was a reference amp, no?
> 
> I did not bash any product, other than to make a comparison between a power acoustik amp and a soundstream, yes?
> 
> Get off your high horse. I'll limit my expletive's, but you clearly are deserving of them here...


Oh it was a Soundstream. Keyword: WAS. It was definitely NOT the amp Griz was referring to when Griz said the Reference series would have it's own boards so you choosing that amp to compare was kinda lame.

What you did is akin to saying a C6 Corvette sucks because Chevy also made the Chevette in 1978. They're not the same thing and in no way related.

Most people that have tried the new Reference series seem to like it. And it definitely has it's own board.


----------



## roxj01

:cwm33:


----------



## ChrisB

Pics, pics, pics! I demand pics!! 

That and a review from someone other than Grizz Archer OR PAS Magazine!

Oh, and in case I didn't mention it, I want PICS!


----------



## cgw

ChrisB said:


> All right CES is over, WHERE ARE THE PICS?



DITTO on that, lol


----------



## cgw

ChrisB said:


> Pics, pics, pics! I demand pics!!
> 
> Oh, and in case I didn't mention it, I want PICS!



DITTO on that too, rsrsrsrsrs


----------



## WRX/Z28

I want board shots!!!! 

I want pics!!!!

Actually, how about some details other than the guys swinging from Grizz's nuts telling us not to bash them?


----------



## 89grand

WRX/Z28 said:


> Actually, how about some details other than the guys swinging from Grizz's nuts telling us not to bash them?


That actually would be refreshing.


----------



## ChrisB

Or maybe I should talk smack and start a new rumor (read lie). The lack of photos and hype is telling me that they decided to hold off on going forward due to the global recession. Apparently, their design is so great, that they can not market it to anyone. 

Disclaimer: I have no proof of such accusations and am just poking fun at the topic at hand. If you don't like it, put me on ignore.


----------



## 89grand

Wait a minute. I thought there was a photo put up a few days ago. I could have sworn there was.


----------



## trust7

THat, is ****ing sick and my ppi collection I rarely see rivaled by anyone, I think the man could/should be listened to with that picture at his defense, aside from the fact that he is right lol.


----------



## trust7

WLDock said:


> While I love old school American muscle....I think American cars today are the 'BEST" cars ever made in some ways. Even better than cars made just five to twenty years ago. But, it almost seems like it is too late in some ways. Change has began....and I hope it works out for the best.
> 
> nevertheless, right now if I had up to about $50K to spend I would have no problem driving past a Toyota, Lexus, BMW, dealership to get to a GM, FORD, or Chrysler dealership to look at a Buick Enclave, LaCrosse, Chevy Camaro, Pontiac G8, Cadillac CTS, Ford Taurus SHO, Mustang, Flex, or Mecury Milan, or Dodge Charger SRT8.




No real offense, but, ****ing dumbass.


----------



## trust7

Irregardless of the amp conversation which I for one want pics/specs/review also in that order.

I will just keep driving my Toyota Tundra, Mazda Rx-7, Nissan Versa/Sentra, Honda Accord ( 1995 286k miles original motor ) until they fall apart, oh wait they don't sorry.
I have owned every American designed and built car companies car in almost every iteration and yes I mean almost all of them I buy and sell cars and not a single one besides a very limited few that receive drivetrains from foreign companies (ford ranger / mazda 2000) ever really last or work well. I had a dodge truck 2008 last year for 6 months, two waterpumps an oilpump a rear diff gear and tailgate later I was done, wtf is the excuse really, I take better care of my vehicles than anyone I know but still the bs quality persists. Americans are however EXCELLENT at putting together and building Japanese designed / manufactured parts, simply excellent.

This however does nothing in relation to my feelings about american amplifiers which I wish regardless of cost would come back.

On the JL Audio thing, JL is great in SOME ways but in some ways they actually don't give TWO ****S about you, I have dealt with them directly on a personal level ( NOT for warrantying crap where you might think I have some bone to pick ) in actually talking about products and trying to buy things and get service, AND one of my shops the manager tells me constantly what a beating it is to deal with them.

No business is perfect, JL does decent ( anyone remember the bang on the 500/1 at the silkscreen area to see if it had the solder/board problems ? ) but just because JL is "better" than everyone else out there means NOTHING, there IS no competition for them to be better than, so in honesty if you think JL is the stone nuts awesome for you, you "might" be right no more than that, if only because competition is HOW we got all these amps you guys are talking about in the first place. Since there IS none of that there is no conversation to even be had.


----------



## WRX/Z28

trust7 said:


> On the JL Audio thing, JL is great in SOME ways but in some ways they actually don't give TWO ****S about you, I have dealt with them directly on a personal level ( NOT for warrantying crap where you might think I have some bone to pick ) in actually talking about products and trying to buy things and get service, AND one of my shops the manager tells me constantly what a beating it is to deal with them.
> 
> No business is perfect, JL does decent ( anyone remember the bang on the 500/1 at the silkscreen area to see if it had the solder/board problems ? ) but just because JL is "better" than everyone else out there means NOTHING, there IS no competition for them to be better than, so in honesty if you think JL is the stone nuts awesome for you, you "might" be right no more than that, if only because competition is HOW we got all these amps you guys are talking about in the first place. Since there IS none of that there is no conversation to even be had.


I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. MOST companies don't give two ****s about you. They're not running a telephone counseling service. Most companies care about making a product that people will buy. JL does this by consistantly engineering great equipment, not calling you on the phone at night to make sure you're "ok". 

FWIW, i've never seen more technical info/faq's/help than I do right on JL's website. All of this info is there, free to use, regardless of what brand you buy. On top of this, i've personally spoken with many of JL's tech support people over the years, and my experience has been great. I've had them fax documents, help troubleshoot issues, and recommend proper equipment. They seem to know their product very well. 

Maybe I'm a JL nuthugger, but I doubt it since I currently don't use anything they make, nor do I believe every product they make is magic gold. I think i'm more of a concerned party that gets easily annoyed by the forum geeks that think because it's a big name, it can't be good stuff. 
Kind of the same guys that listen to a great band until they "sell out", and become popular, and all of a sudden, they spout off how much they suck, and have always sucked. 

BTW, the "bang on the 500/1" issue was generally a user error problem. Every one of their amps that i've seen with this problem was mounted vertically to the vibrating subwoofer enclosure. This would vibrate the daughter cards loose, and cause an intermittent problem. It was an easy fix, and db-r.com actually had a tutorial on how to fix it yourself. 

dB-r Electronics Forums - JL Audio 1000/1 (all slash series amps) repair tip

I have quite a few friends with V1 JL amps that are running as strong as they ever have... Even this amp repair tech says:


Chris from DBR.com said:


> "again, these are VERY well built and rugged amps, some of the best money can buy for SQ and mechanical reliability in my opinion."


----------



## JAX

trust7 said:


> Irregardless of the amp conversation which I for one want pics/specs/review also in that order.
> 
> I will just keep driving my Toyota Tundra, Mazda Rx-7, Nissan Versa/Sentra, Honda Accord ( 1995 286k miles original motor ) until they fall apart, oh wait they don't sorry.
> I have owned every American designed and built car companies car in almost every iteration and yes I mean almost all of them I buy and sell cars and not a single one besides a very limited few that receive drivetrains from foreign companies (ford ranger / mazda 2000) ever really last or work well. I had a dodge truck 2008 last year for 6 months, two waterpumps an oilpump a rear diff gear and tailgate later I was done, wtf is the excuse really, I take better care of my vehicles than anyone I know but still the bs quality persists. Americans are however EXCELLENT at putting together and building Japanese designed / manufactured parts, simply excellent.
> 
> This however does nothing in relation to my feelings about american amplifiers which I wish regardless of cost would come back.
> 
> On the JL Audio thing, JL is great in SOME ways but in some ways they actually don't give TWO ****S about you, I have dealt with them directly on a personal level ( NOT for warrantying crap where you might think I have some bone to pick ) in actually talking about products and trying to buy things and get service, AND one of my shops the manager tells me constantly what a beating it is to deal with them.
> 
> No business is perfect, JL does decent ( anyone remember the bang on the 500/1 at the silkscreen area to see if it had the solder/board problems ? ) but just because JL is "better" than everyone else out there means NOTHING, there IS no competition for them to be better than, so in honesty if you think JL is the stone nuts awesome for you, you "might" be right no more than that, if only because competition is HOW we got all these amps you guys are talking about in the first place. Since there IS none of that there is no conversation to even be had.



I dont know ya...but the giant flag in the first half of your paragraph....RX 7 ....HALT! 

I have owned 7 of them....and although still some of the funnest cars I ever owned they were by far the most frustrating ....the WANKEL is not user friendly...
I grew up around them...rx3 ..truck...all of them...my uncle is a well known rotary fanatic and he also grew up where the general public could take those motors and do magic...

so ..having said that...I have also owned American and Jap cars.....all of them......never had a like of problems...

due to child I am now driving a blown Buick....and not had a problem....

I guess what I am getting at is that ...you might have had a lemon....I personally will not own a Dodge.....but that is a small percentage of total production units that are good. 
I also sold cars for several years...seen lots of junk...but I am still not going to sit there and say one thing is better over the other ....

not sure why I even posted this but your RX7 statement for reliability really made me laugh. reliable if the fuel system isnt flooding out the car and as long as it doesnt sit too long....reliable as long as its not boosted...


----------



## 89grand

trust7 said:


> No real offense, but, ****ing dumbass.


Nice post. Apparently anyone that thinks American cars are good is a "****ing dumbass"? Well then you just called me one too since that's all I drive or ever will drive, and I've NEVER had the problems you "claim" to have had. My 2006 Magnum R/T has just under 50K miles, it's been absolutely flawless. My 2000 Wrangler with 112k has been flawless. My 1988 Cadillac Brougham has been too, a long with all the other cars I've had.

The Mazda IS a Ford Ranger, not the other way around, and they both get the Ford drivetrain, at least I know the V6 is. Apparently Mazda can't make a decent truck.

Also, that story you made up about the Dodge Ram...in the future your stories might be more believable if you don't exaggerate to such a high degree, because there is no ****ing way you had all those problems.

****ing dumbass!


Anyway, this topic is about PPI amps, not your love of all things foreign and hatred of American cars, so try to keep it on topic. Start a thread it OT if you feel like starting ****.


----------



## trust7

WRX/Z28 said:


> I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. MOST companies don't give two ****s about you. They're not running a telephone counseling service. Most companies care about making a product that people will buy. JL does this by consistantly engineering great equipment, not calling you on the phone at night to make sure you're "ok".
> 
> FWIW, i've never seen more technical info/faq's/help than I do right on JL's website. All of this info is there, free to use, regardless of what brand you buy. On top of this, i've personally spoken with many of JL's tech support people over the years, and my experience has been great. I've had them fax documents, help troubleshoot issues, and recommend proper equipment. They seem to know their product very well.
> 
> Maybe I'm a JL nuthugger, but I doubt it since I currently don't use anything they make, nor do I believe every product they make is magic gold. I think i'm more of a concerned party that gets easily annoyed by the forum geeks that think because it's a big name, it can't be good stuff.
> Kind of the same guys that listen to a great band until they "sell out", and become popular, and all of a sudden, they spout off how much they suck, and have always sucked.
> 
> BTW, the "bang on the 500/1" issue was generally a user error problem. Every one of their amps that i've seen with this problem was mounted vertically to the vibrating subwoofer enclosure. This would vibrate the daughter cards loose, and cause an intermittent problem. It was an easy fix, and db-r.com actually had a tutorial on how to fix it yourself.
> 
> dB-r Electronics Forums - JL Audio 1000/1 (all slash series amps) repair tip
> 
> I have quite a few friends with V1 JL amps that are running as strong as they ever have... Even this amp repair tech says:


I read all 9 pages and I come to a few conclusions:

1. I think yes, why yes I do beleive you ARE a JL nuthugger ( using you and another doods werd here heh ) although they IMO are a decent company TO nuthug if you so choose.

2. JL for me is a technical company, one that quite a lot of time loses sight OF exactly its customers, who actually in the **** wants the amps well.. I will just stop there before I start another 8 pages of crap, lets just say, they are in business #1 to make money #2 to listen to people, but its hard to do that when #1 is to make money and #2 is affected by your PERCEPTION of what #1 is and how you got that information. Long story short JL is a company and they listen to themselves and a LITTLE bit the customer, it just happens that having not only an engineering degree and a psych degree AND an associates in technology and 20 years of network management while owning two car audio stores I know just a "touch" about a few things technical and when I can't have a civil conversation with ANYONE tech or sales at JL simply to ORDER A REPLACEMENT DRIVER THROUGH MY STORE ?????? WTF, seriously WTF. Too long of a story to recant but suffice to say, irritating big time.

3. Yes people are fickle as ****, they don't know WHAT they want much less when they get it they are like oooooh umm no cash right now, sorry I said I would buy it if you made it LOL WOOPS, yeah I get it but shesus, can we listen to the guys that have 60 amps of EACH BRAND ( you and me im talking about here ) on their couches, living rooms, bedrooms, garages, can we take THEIR opinions for anything or no are they just full of **** too ? I mean if I took a picture of my garage you would not only say ******** that doesnt exist you would probably say I have a degree in photoshop, nope no bs, does owing hundreds of something make you a certified master, nope but does it lend SOME credibility to knowledge or at least purchasing power/ability, **** YES IT DOES. So no, no hype to the retards, retards listen up, put up your dollars OR STFU, its that simple I Like one of the guys said it best earlier in this thread when he said it ( the ppi new ) would either suck balls or not and ( maybe this was you ) it would be shown my mf's putting up dollars or not and thats that.

4. The JL daughterboard issue was a bad design, **** where you mount it, solid state machinery should be just that, if you can't mount an amp to a sub box that IS a sub amp, your **** SUCKS period. I'm not saying the / 500 is **** im saying its a mistake one that was corrected, it was only an example of JL being human in company terms but only so one-sided, they are readily ok with so forth and so on but if you call upon them to admit the humanity/mistakes like every other company they refuse.
I get it its bad business, it puts people OUT of business, I dont want JL to go under I just want a ****ING FOUR INCH DRIVER YOU ****S!!!!!!

/rant/bastardizing/jokes


JAX - Good Catch.

I really only mentioned several cars ( I sell cars on the side nowadays hence so much ownership information ) that I beleive were fun and reliable, honestly the Rx-7 was thrown in to see if anyone was listening and you were lol, Rx-7 and reliable in the same sentence, ****all, you must be kidding. Granted if you are ME and you Pre-Mix your 7000.00 Motors they last a lifetime and my 90T2 and 93CYM are both on 2nd or 3rd motors both having gotten WELL over 150-180K a peice on them easily, the only reason I rebuild them is a. I know how and b. they do lose SOME small amount of compression with being boosted non stop like a ignorant maniac that I am.

Did I ever tell you the story of my Canon ball run from Houston back to my house in North Richland Hills ? It goes something like this:
1. Start out at Deer Park, Texas ( suburb of south houston)
2. Go to NRH Tx, (Suburb of Ft Worth )
3. End in 2 Hours 12 minutes
4. 93 CYM
5. Yes thats an average of 127MPH
6. Cops you ask ?
6a. Juniper or some **** city 1/3 way home DPS Trooper, pull on to the freeway ( facing same way as me ) turns on lights, I blow by at 188 and push the pedal down, he turns off lights and gets back on side of the road. I dont let up til I see 19X ish ( speedo stops at 180) and many miles later
6b. centerville 1/2 way home, Sherriff, opposite side, turns around ( I'm at 130 - 140 when he clocks me ) turns lights on, I see dust in the median ( while my foot is inside the radiator ((smashing the fux out of the gas )) from him ass hauling around to come get me, I hit 160, 170, 180 pass Sheriff #2 same side at about 185 ish, he pulls out lights on, and going..................going......................small speck in mirror, check, barely see lights, check.......................gone. Don't let off the gas from 185 ish until Ennis comes up.
7. Ennis REALLY fuxed me btw I truly think sub 2 hours minus Ennis, SO MANY FUXING COPS like 20 of them lowered my average by so much, 9 minutes driving through Ennis, fuxers.

/story

Anyhow, oh by the way my wife in the car, LOVED IT.

/story2

Anyhow No Rx-7s are not reliable if you dont know how to take care of cars and some aren't even if you do quite a bit, but I would take an Rx-7 or an Rx-3 or a **** wankel truck or a cosmo over a Doge or Ford ANY day.

Hey did I tell you guys about the story of my 2010 Mustang that my wife fuxing BEGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGED me to spend 38k on that had a harmonic balancer go out at 800miles, an oil pump charge mechanism at 1050 miles and a cam tensioner at 1200 miles ? No ? 

Junk I say, Junk. Weird though how my 1995 Honda has 280+k on it and has seen less shop time than every American car combined/divided/exponentially to the 10th power that I have owned in the last 5 years, weird.

/rant2/jokes2


Long ass stories ended, everyone has their own thoughts, cars, amps etc, I like whoever say pay or stfu, you guys all pay to prove/show your nuthugging, and I clap for that, I will do the same. On the PPI deal no ppi won't be PPI ever again, could it be GOOD yes and I pray to god it is, love to see it, the new PG stuff looks potentially good, specs wise.

But this is why I now own 3 newly powdercoated, plexi-bottomed, polished, scoped and spec'ed PPI PC series amps, cuz they're the ****ttttttttttttttttt.


----------



## trust7

89grand said:


> Nice post. Apparently anyone that thinks American cars are good is a "****ing dumbass"? Well then you just called me one too since that's all I drive or ever will drive, and I've NEVER had the problems you "claim" to have had. My 2006 Magnum R/T has just under 50K miles, it's been absolutely flawless. My 2000 Wrangler with 112k has been flawless. My 1988 Cadillac Brougham has been too, a long with all the other cars I've had.
> 
> The Mazda IS a Ford Ranger, not the other way around, and they both get the Ford drivetrain, at least I know the V6 is. Apparently Mazda can't make a decent truck.
> 
> Also, that story you made up about the Dodge Ram...in the future your stories might be more believable if you don't exaggerate to such a high degree, because there is no ****ing way you had all those problems.
> 
> ****ing dumbass!
> 
> 
> Anyway, this topic is about PPI amps, not your love of all things foreign and hatred of American cars, so try to keep it on topic. Start a thread it OT if you feel like starting ****.


I like you 89Grand. Do me a favor call me when any of those cars you have mentioned have over 2 miles on them, woops I meant 200,000 oh you can't just yet ? Or you can't ever, do you keep trading them in before that point because " your just ready for a new ones " ? 

Also ( and this is not a don't do it I dont think you will call my bluff because I want you to call my bluff ) Alllen Samuels Dodge, North Richland Hills, Google that **** call service and ask for Chris Connelly service record on last owned Dodge full size truck, pllllllllllllllllllsssssssssssssssssssssssssssss do it do it do it do it!

Don Davis Ford in Arlington Texas 2010 Mustang, DO IT DO IT ( isnt that a start of a kind of cool funky hip hop 80's/90's song ? )

You are however half correct, Mazda built the 4cyl and Ford built the 6cyl in all those, thats why good sir THE EXPLORERS AND NAVAJO'S WERE ****TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT v6 ahem, V6 AHEM.


J/C how many miles on the 88 Brougham ? has the rear plastic/fiberglass in the tails fallen out yet, sorry I dont mean yet I mean how many times ?

I'm just kidding, hey man you love them you dont mind paying for sub par quality and rewarding all our hard-earned money going into UNIONS pockets by all means.

All I can say is I truly hope GM and FORD and Chrysler in their current iterations ****ing DIE like gone die. they need it man, not that I want the lines to die man **** FORD created the car ( Did I mention my great great grandfather invented the windshield wiper ?, Also not ******** ) I have great ties to cars. But the manufacturers can't live like this there is no other companies that have passed through the depressions and situations they have unscathed with no negative impact.

I used to network engineer at a Sabre facility in Ft Worth ( american airlines ) one day I was written up by my bosses bosses boss for moving a ladies laptop LITERALLY 3 feet from one desk to another because she didnt know what wires were what. You know the reason, because that act caused ( NOT ******** ALERT I SWEAR TO GOD!) 3K, yes THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS to be taken from the union workers ( all 3 of them needed for this act ) pockets.


/rant/jokes/stories.


plus PS this thread IS dead, either nobody cared which they would have OR PPI didnt show ****TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT at CES.

Bueller Bueller ?


----------



## msmith

trust7 said:


> On the JL Audio thing, JL is great in SOME ways but in some ways they actually don't give TWO ****S about you, I have dealt with them directly on a personal level ( NOT for warrantying crap where you might think I have some bone to pick ) in actually talking about products and trying to buy things and get service, AND one of my shops the manager tells me constantly what a beating it is to deal with them.


Sorry that you had a bad experience. We strive to treat all our customers fairly and with respect. Our dealers consistently rate us very high (in the top 2) in customer service, repair, ease of doing business, technical support, etc. As you state below, no business is perfect, but we try hard to get close.



> No business is perfect, JL does decent ( anyone remember the bang on the 500/1 at the silkscreen area to see if it had the solder/board problems ? ) but just because JL is "better" than everyone else out there means NOTHING, there IS no competition for them to be better than, so in honesty if you think JL is the stone nuts awesome for you, you "might" be right no more than that, if only because competition is HOW we got all these amps you guys are talking about in the first place. Since there IS none of that there is no conversation to even be had.


Being better than everyone else means nothing?


----------



## roxj01

oh yeah my ctd runs 10's in the quarter and tops out at 165mph and instead of being cool and blowing by the cops i just run them over since im rolling on 47inch swampers


----------



## bassfromspace

trust7 said:


> I read all 9 pages and I come to a few conclusions:
> 
> 1. I think yes, why yes I do beleive you ARE a JL nuthugger ( using you and another doods werd here heh ) although they IMO are a decent company TO nuthug if you so choose.
> 
> 2. JL for me is a technical company, one that quite a lot of time loses sight OF exactly its customers, who actually in the **** wants the amps well.. I will just stop there before I start another 8 pages of crap, lets just say, they are in business #1 to make money #2 to listen to people, but its hard to do that when #1 is to make money and #2 is affected by your PERCEPTION of what #1 is and how you got that information. Long story short JL is a company and they listen to themselves and a LITTLE bit the customer, it just happens that having not only an engineering degree and a psych degree AND an associates in technology and 20 years of network management while owning two car audio stores I know just a "touch" about a few things technical and when I can't have a civil conversation with ANYONE tech or sales at JL simply to ORDER A REPLACEMENT DRIVER THROUGH MY STORE ?????? WTF, seriously WTF. Too long of a story to recant but suffice to say, irritating big time.
> 
> 3. Yes people are fickle as ****, they don't know WHAT they want much less when they get it they are like oooooh umm no cash right now, sorry I said I would buy it if you made it LOL WOOPS, yeah I get it but shesus, can we listen to the guys that have 60 amps of EACH BRAND ( you and me im talking about here ) on their couches, living rooms, bedrooms, garages, can we take THEIR opinions for anything or no are they just full of **** too ? I mean if I took a picture of my garage you would not only say ******** that doesnt exist you would probably say I have a degree in photoshop, nope no bs, does owing hundreds of something make you a certified master, nope but does it lend SOME credibility to knowledge or at least purchasing power/ability, **** YES IT DOES. So no, no hype to the retards, retards listen up, put up your dollars OR STFU, its that simple I Like one of the guys said it best earlier in this thread when he said it ( the ppi new ) would either suck balls or not and ( maybe this was you ) it would be shown my mf's putting up dollars or not and thats that.
> 
> 4. The JL daughterboard issue was a bad design, **** where you mount it, solid state machinery should be just that, if you can't mount an amp to a sub box that IS a sub amp, your **** SUCKS period. I'm not saying the / 500 is **** im saying its a mistake one that was corrected, it was only an example of JL being human in company terms but only so one-sided, they are readily ok with so forth and so on but if you call upon them to admit the humanity/mistakes like every other company they refuse.
> I get it its bad business, it puts people OUT of business, I dont want JL to go under I just want a ****ING FOUR INCH DRIVER YOU ****S!!!!!!
> 
> /rant/bastardizing/jokes
> 
> 
> JAX - Good Catch.
> 
> I really only mentioned several cars ( I sell cars on the side nowadays hence so much ownership information ) that I beleive were fun and reliable, honestly the Rx-7 was thrown in to see if anyone was listening and you were lol, Rx-7 and reliable in the same sentence, ****all, you must be kidding. Granted if you are ME and you Pre-Mix your 7000.00 Motors they last a lifetime and my 90T2 and 93CYM are both on 2nd or 3rd motors both having gotten WELL over 150-180K a peice on them easily, the only reason I rebuild them is a. I know how and b. they do lose SOME small amount of compression with being boosted non stop like a ignorant maniac that I am.
> 
> Did I ever tell you the story of my Canon ball run from Houston back to my house in North Richland Hills ? It goes something like this:
> 1. Start out at Deer Park, Texas ( suburb of south houston)
> 2. Go to NRH Tx, (Suburb of Ft Worth )
> 3. End in 2 Hours 12 minutes
> 4. 93 CYM
> 5. Yes thats an average of 127MPH
> 6. Cops you ask ?
> 6a. Juniper or some **** city 1/3 way home DPS Trooper, pull on to the freeway ( facing same way as me ) turns on lights, I blow by at 188 and push the pedal down, he turns off lights and gets back on side of the road. I dont let up til I see 19X ish ( speedo stops at 180) and many miles later
> 6b. centerville 1/2 way home, Sherriff, opposite side, turns around ( I'm at 130 - 140 when he clocks me ) turns lights on, I see dust in the median ( while my foot is inside the radiator ((smashing the fux out of the gas )) from him ass hauling around to come get me, I hit 160, 170, 180 pass Sheriff #2 same side at about 185 ish, he pulls out lights on, and going..................going......................small speck in mirror, check, barely see lights, check.......................gone. Don't let off the gas from 185 ish until Ennis comes up.
> 7. Ennis REALLY fuxed me btw I truly think sub 2 hours minus Ennis, SO MANY FUXING COPS like 20 of them lowered my average by so much, 9 minutes driving through Ennis, fuxers.
> 
> /story
> 
> Anyhow, oh by the way my wife in the car, LOVED IT.
> 
> /story2
> 
> Anyhow No Rx-7s are not reliable if you dont know how to take care of cars and some aren't even if you do quite a bit, but I would take an Rx-7 or an Rx-3 or a **** wankel truck or a cosmo over a Doge or Ford ANY day.
> 
> Hey did I tell you guys about the story of my 2010 Mustang that my wife fuxing BEGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGED me to spend 38k on that had a harmonic balancer go out at 800miles, an oil pump charge mechanism at 1050 miles and a cam tensioner at 1200 miles ? No ?
> 
> Junk I say, Junk. Weird though how my 1995 Honda has 280+k on it and has seen less shop time than every American car combined/divided/exponentially to the 10th power that I have owned in the last 5 years, weird.
> 
> /rant2/jokes2
> 
> 
> Long ass stories ended, everyone has their own thoughts, cars, amps etc, I like whoever say pay or stfu, you guys all pay to prove/show your nuthugging, and I clap for that, I will do the same. On the PPI deal no ppi won't be PPI ever again, could it be GOOD yes and I pray to god it is, love to see it, the new PG stuff looks potentially good, specs wise.
> 
> But this is why I now own 3 newly powdercoated, plexi-bottomed, polished, scoped and spec'ed PPI PC series amps, cuz they're the ****ttttttttttttttttt.


What two stores did you own?


----------



## WRX/Z28

trust7 said:


> I read all 9 pages and I come to a few conclusions:
> 
> 1. I think yes, why yes I do beleive you ARE a JL nuthugger ( using you and another doods werd here heh ) although they IMO are a decent company TO nuthug if you so choose.



Ok, so how did you draw this conclusion? If it is so, there are a lot worse things to be. I still maintain that i'm not. Nuthugging would indicate that I use their products. Check my sig. No JL gear at the moment. 



trust7 said:


> 2. JL for me is a technical company, one that quite a lot of time loses sight OF exactly its customers, who actually in the **** wants the amps well.. I will just stop there before I start another 8 pages of crap, lets just say, they are in business #1 to make money #2 to listen to people, but its hard to do that when #1 is to make money and #2 is affected by your PERCEPTION of what #1 is and how you got that information. Long story short JL is a company and they listen to themselves and a LITTLE bit the customer, it just happens that having not only an engineering degree and a psych degree AND an associates in technology and 20 years of network management while owning two car audio stores I know just a "touch" about a few things technical and when I can't have a civil conversation with ANYONE tech or sales at JL simply to ORDER A REPLACEMENT DRIVER THROUGH MY STORE ?????? WTF, seriously WTF. Too long of a story to recant but suffice to say, irritating big time.



#2 is incorrect. They're not in business to listen to people. Maybe to determine what products people will buy, but not to listen to people. Judging by your posting, I can see why. 

I can see from your posts why you "can't have a civil conversation". 
Why would you be calling technical to order a replacement driver? Why wouldn't you just contact your rep? Something's amiss here. 




trust7 said:


> 3. Yes people are fickle as ****, they don't know WHAT they want much less when they get it they are like oooooh umm no cash right now, sorry I said I would buy it if you made it LOL WOOPS, yeah I get it but shesus, can we listen to the guys that have 60 amps of EACH BRAND ( you and me im talking about here ) on their couches, living rooms, bedrooms, garages, can we take THEIR opinions for anything or no are they just full of **** too ? I mean if I took a picture of my garage you would not only say ******** that doesnt exist you would probably say I have a degree in photoshop, nope no bs, does owing hundreds of something make you a certified master, nope but does it lend SOME credibility to knowledge or at least purchasing power/ability, **** YES IT DOES. So no, no hype to the retards, retards listen up, put up your dollars OR STFU, its that simple I Like one of the guys said it best earlier in this thread when he said it ( the ppi new ) would either suck balls or not and ( maybe this was you ) it would be shown my mf's putting up dollars or not and thats that.



Whoa. What was this rambling about? I reread it 4 times, and I can't make it out. 


trust7 said:


> 4. The JL daughterboard issue was a bad design, **** where you mount it, solid state machinery should be just that, if you can't mount an amp to a sub box that IS a sub amp, your **** SUCKS period. I'm not saying the / 500 is **** im saying its a mistake one that was corrected, it was only an example of JL being human in company terms but only so one-sided, they are readily ok with so forth and so on but if you call upon them to admit the humanity/mistakes like every other company they refuse.
> I get it its bad business, it puts people OUT of business, I dont want JL to go under I just want a ****ING FOUR INCH DRIVER YOU ****S!!!!!!



All electronics these days (save for some specialty pieces) are solid state. I'm not sure about your point here either. Electronics (solid state or not) are vibration sensitive, the same way many other things are. Nothing makes them vibration proof. Regardless of what amp I run, I will never mount one to a sub box. Expensive electronics with solder joints, daughter boards (lots of amps have these today to make the amp smaller) and such may be durable, but subjecting them to 20-250 cycles per second of high intensity vibration is a bad idea, any way you spin it. 

I still consider it an elementary no-no to mount your amp to your sub box. Something I only see in half assed installs. Disagree with me if you like, but the track record is there. 

4" driver wise, they made one. It didn't sell well. It was part of the XR653csi set from a few years ago. Noone bought it because it required custom install in most cases. 


Calm down man. It seems like you could use a valium, or a xanex or something.


----------



## trust7

msmith said:


> Sorry that you had a bad experience. We strive to treat all our customers fairly and with respect. Our dealers consistently rate us very high (in the top 2) in customer service, repair, ease of doing business, technical support, etc. As you state below, no business is perfect, but we try hard to get close.
> 
> 
> 
> Being better than everyone else means nothing?


Smith you and I both know, it means nothing when there is nobody to be better than. Who exactly are your competitors that are holding you to a higher standard ? if you say Audison, Macintosh or some other non regular mid/high level line then we aren't really having a conversation are we.

I'm game to hear your reply though, because I have a secret, I know that you are a consumer too and I also know that you know that competition IS the heart and soul of invention and drive.

Where does yours come from ?


----------



## trust7

LOL WRX.

Mostly about 90% jokes no point really to forums at all mostly IMO, its a lot of people sitting behind computers talking about things that they can't won't don't do for themselves in real life, so I usually don't ever talk. Notice the 17 post count but I have been here for years ?

Conversations just don't GO anywhere, you can't have civil conversations with people you two earlier in the thread kind of proved my/your own point there, that was my return point in that.

1. Because whether ATM or not, you talk MAD **** about them, So good Uhuhuhuh Soo good. thats nuthugging, I'm not down on ya man, G4U! Mid level they are pretty solid, nothing spectacular just run of the mill junk honestly but pretty ok no serious complaints, had many folks in my Tundra ask what subs my ZR 6.5's were to me saying no sub just a 1200XTR on 2 sets of ZR 6.5's and another 1200XTR on 1 JL TW3 flat thats always off because my seat is down and Toyota sucks balls and so does JL's engineers for "engineering" a 8" Under seat box for Tundras, fux 8's, bleck., so see there I guess I'M really the nuthugger  Pffft nopes. because ALL THE MUSIC IS COMING FROM THE 4" MB Quart Q in the DASH HOLMES. well all but the cymbal crash I guess, you know the voice and the main guitar notes etc ? yeah the important ****. Fux Bass, jk.

2. This my friend is where you are completely wrong. Listen to people ramble no listen to people consistenly ask for products yes and that is only what I meant here. I mean in no way to imply that they should cow tow to every single humans ridiculous requests.

3. Re-referencing you talking about "Kind of the same guys that listen to a great band until they "sell out", and become popular, and all of a sudden, they spout off how much they suck, and have always sucked." Basically saying I agree with you, people are fickle if they have any inclination from sheep land to do one thing or another they likely will regardless of factual information, just agreeing with your assessment of retarded folks.

4. Let me ask you a question in reference to this. If you go the CRXXXXLIST.COM ( not sure if its ok to directly state the website in question ) and type anything resembling car audio parts, or YXXTUBE.COM or or or or do you think more people agree with retardation installation technique OR your thoughts ?
Follow me here for a second, I know I know stupid people do not make the world go around true they are all NOT right. BUT Collectively one thing they ARE is, not wrong, that would be JL in this case or any amp company that doesnt build their amp to be put on a sub box period. If 9billion stupid people eat rice, if you poison the rice then the stupid dead people aren't at fault if they knew no better, its jacked yes but don't sit here and try to feed me ******** about JL NOT knowing their amps were going to be screwed down to 12 15's and rattled to piss and beyond. I have PPI PC2350's I have owned since 1998/1999 WITH PLEXIGLASS mounted to JL's best 12's in push pull, 4 of them for YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS because in the car there was no other choice, I knew it wasnt right and was willing to accept the consequence, nope never a failure on the amps part, not once.........ever............still...........playing..............today. Small failure IMO in a long good history honestly, just was pointing out that they are indeed able to fail.

Bassfromspace - Non compete agreement, not only can I not tell you the answer I can't re-sell audio equipment at retail for another 5 or so years, after that I'll tell away


----------



## WRX/Z28

trust7 said:


> Smith you and I both know, it means nothing when there is nobody to be better than. Who exactly are your competitors that are holding you to a higher standard ? if you say Audison, Macintosh or some other non regular mid/high level line then we aren't really having a conversation are we.
> 
> I'm game to hear your reply though, because I have a secret, I know that you are a consumer too and I also know that you know that competition IS the heart and soul of invention and drive.
> 
> Where does yours come from ?


I would say that the industry as a whole is the competition. To compare yourself against one other brand is to lose sight of everyone else making a product like yours. 

There are still many good brands to choose from.


----------



## trust7

Ok, still waiting, WHO ?

B&W, Audison, Macintosh, Pioneer oh wait those are all HOME audio.


Car Audio either MOSTLY or ONLY at least a large Mobile engineering, what companies are JL's competition, who IS good ?


----------



## 89grand

I don't understand anything you are saying. As far as I'm concerned JL Audio's competion is anyone that makes car audio.

If I want an amp I have to choose between JL and:

1. JBL.
2. Diamond Audio.
3. Soundstream.
4. Phoenix Gold.
5. Rockford Fosgate.
6. Zapco.
7. Audison.
8. Kenwood.
9. Pioneer.
10. Sony.
11. Powerbass.
12. .....

This could go one all day, but you get the picture, right?

Same thing with subwoofers, components and coaxials.


----------



## msmith

trust7 said:


> Smith you and I both know, it means nothing when there is nobody to be better than. Who exactly are your competitors that are holding you to a higher standard ? if you say Audison, Macintosh or some other non regular mid/high level line then we aren't really having a conversation are we.
> 
> I'm game to hear your reply though, because I have a secret, I know that you are a consumer too and I also know that you know that competition IS the heart and soul of invention and drive.
> 
> Where does yours come from ?


My biggest competition comes from all the other things that our potential customers can choose to spend their money on: computers, games, cell phones, wheels, etc.

My 2nd biggest competitor is the loss of interest in sound quality by the average consumer and retailer.

My 3rd biggest competitor is poor implementation of our products leading to bad customer experiences, which result in #1 and #2

Don't know if that's what you were looking for, but it's the facts.


----------



## WRX/Z28

trust7 said:


> Ok, still waiting, WHO ?
> 
> B&W, Audison, Macintosh, Pioneer oh wait those are all HOME audio.
> 
> 
> Car Audio either MOSTLY or ONLY at least a large Mobile engineering, what companies are JL's competition, who IS good ?



Focal, Morel, Kenwood, Rockford Fosgate, US amps, Memphis, Hybrid Audio, Hertz, Audison, MTX, Kicker, Alpine, Clarion, JVC, Sony, Sundown, Dayton, Peerless, Scanspeak, Seas, Image Dynamics, and so on...

Now, before you go spouting off your opinion that "None of those companies are good", realize that's your opinion, and only your opinion. 

I think you are confusing the fact that JL makes solid products in all catagories with believing that noone else makes a solid product.


----------



## WRX/Z28

msmith said:


> My biggest competition comes from all the other things that our potential customers can choose to spend their money on: computers, games, cell phones, wheels, etc.
> 
> My 2nd biggest competitor is the loss of interest in sound quality by the average consumer and retailer.
> 
> My 3rd biggest competitor is poor implementation of our products leading to bad customer experiences, which result in #1 and #2
> 
> Don't know if that's what you were looking for, but it's the facts.


See? Manville gets it. That's just about the most intelligent thing anyone has said in this thread. lol

Manville, 

Your 4th biggest competitor is the OEM manufacturers making better gear than in years past. 

IMHO, you guys should be working on a more advanced clean sweep (if you aren't already). Something with EQ and T/A and signal summing built in. Something with Ipod control built in, and bluetooth built in. Oh, and don't forget a trigger wire to allow their nav to cut in on their music and give them their next turn. 

That would be a product we need.


----------



## trust7

MrSmith, thank you for the well thought out reply, that also kind of makes my point for me. You are indeed correct that those items are problems for JL and your consumers, technical and non-technical alike. However, those issues while can form and indirectly be competitive factors for business operations, are strictly NOT competitors as the original statement I made inquires for. If you as a company do not have other companies that you are looking at, tearing their products apart, researching their implementations and engineering, then you do not truly have competition as a HEALTHY market would demand. No downside or scrub on JL, it is simply a fact that there is very little upper mid level to high end product that JL HAS to compete on, that doesn't mean your products are bad, it simply means that you have successfully pushed your competitors away, which is good in some ways. But I believe all good technology and drive comes from multiple levels of thought and processing. Intel regardless of what they would have you believe has and never will do what they do without AMD or some other company right on their heels, it drives them to be better, the same with Apple and Microsoft, and so forth and so on without Apple, truly we would be SCREWED. The actual only reason Vista got the NO DICE from consumers is because it DID suck and most importantly they didnt HAVE to take it.

JL ( I will pick one line here and I'll choose amps since thats the thread ) actually has no competition IMO as WRX says.

Alpine, ROFL, Rockford, maybe in the 80's and 90's today punch anniversary 25 was the closest Mr Hafler ( I know he doesnt own RF any longer so dont tell me that ) has gotten in this decade or anything near it to an amp that was worth the copper the pcb was made of, period, US Amps ? When is their new line coming out ? MTX, Kicker, Kenwood, Clarion, JVC, Sony, Soundstream ( Except POSSIBLY the new reference which I have not personally heard ) Now I think you are insulting me AND everyone else here. JL Audio and those companies relating to amps or drivers really is just not even in the same ballpark nevermind league.

Focal, sexcellent speakers, Morel again, US Memphis some good amps, Hybrid decent not big enough of a company to matter really IMO but decent stuff, Peer, Scan, Seas Image all good drivers to some people and maybe as an illustration JL has some end point driver competition but amps, comon lets talk real here.

Again I have well over 1500.00 worth of JL IN my demo truck the one I drive and listen to every day, so I am a hypocrite like everyone else really. I'm just saying Competition IS the heart of invention and JL doesnt have any, at least not in amp land. IMO


----------



## trust7

89grand said:


> I don't understand anything you are saying. As far as I'm concerned JL Audio's competion is anyone that makes car audio.
> 
> If I want an amp I have to choose between JL and:
> 
> 1. JBL.
> 2. Diamond Audio.
> 3. Soundstream.
> 4. Phoenix Gold.
> 5. Rockford Fosgate.
> 6. Zapco.
> 7. Audison.
> 8. Kenwood.
> 9. Pioneer.
> 10. Sony.
> 11. Powerbass.
> 12. .....
> 
> This could go one all day, but you get the picture, right?
> 
> Same thing with subwoofers, components and coaxials.


89, if you are about to go buy an amp for the RT that is going to drive Focal speakers.

Exactly, I dont mean a brand, exactly which amp, how much are you going to pay and why do you choose that amp?

If you say something near Sony, Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood or the like I wont listen, basically give me a real answer.


----------



## 89grand

What you are saying is bizarre. Are you suggesting that anyone that would buy a JBL amp would never buy a JL Audio amp, or the other way around? In other words, are you suggesting that either people will only buy JL or never buy JL, just those two camps?

There are a couple of JL amps that would work well for the system I'm planning, but I'm also looking at other amps too. I've used a lot of JL subs over the past 17 years, but I've used other subs more recently.


----------



## msmith

trust7 said:


> MrSmith, thank you for the well thought out reply, that also kind of makes my point for me. You are indeed correct that those items are problems for JL and your consumers, technical and non-technical alike. However, those issues while can form and indirectly be competitive factors for business operations, are strictly NOT competitors as the original statement I made inquires for. If you as a company do not have other companies that you are looking at, tearing their products apart, researching their implementations and engineering, then you do not truly have competition as a HEALTHY market would demand. No downside or scrub on JL, it is simply a fact that there is very little upper mid level to high end product that JL HAS to compete on, that doesn't mean your products are bad, it simply means that you have successfully pushed your competitors away, which is good in some ways. But I believe all good technology and drive comes from multiple levels of thought and processing. Intel regardless of what they would have you believe has and never will do what they do without AMD or some other company right on their heels, it drives them to be better, the same with Apple and Microsoft, and so forth and so on without Apple, truly we would be SCREWED. The actual only reason Vista got the NO DICE from consumers is because it DID suck and most importantly they didnt HAVE to take it.
> 
> JL ( I will pick one line here and I'll choose amps since thats the thread ) actually has no competition IMO as WRX says.
> 
> Alpine, ROFL, Rockford, maybe in the 80's and 90's today punch anniversary 25 was the closest Mr Hafler ( I know he doesnt own RF any longer so dont tell me that ) has gotten in this decade or anything near it to an amp that was worth the copper the pcb was made of, period, US Amps ? When is their new line coming out ? MTX, Kicker, Kenwood, Clarion, JVC, Sony, Soundstream ( Except POSSIBLY the new reference which I have not personally heard ) Now I think you are insulting me AND everyone else here. JL Audio and those companies relating to amps or drivers really is just not even in the same ballpark nevermind league.


Then why do Alpine and Rockford sell more units and dollars in amplifiers than JL Audio? 



> Focal, sexcellent speakers, Morel again, US Memphis some good amps, Hybrid decent not big enough of a company to matter really IMO but decent stuff, Peer, Scan, Seas Image all good drivers to some people and maybe as an illustration JL has some end point driver competition but amps, comon lets talk real here.


We're in the top-ten in U.S. market share... Alpine, Pioneer, Infinity dominate this segment.



> Again I have well over 1500.00 worth of JL IN my demo truck the one I drive and listen to every day, so I am a hypocrite like everyone else really. I'm just saying Competition IS the heart of invention and JL doesnt have any, at least not in amp land. IMO


Thanks for using our products.

BTW, we do look at other companies' products when there is something interesting to look at. But you can't spend all your energy seeing what the competition is doing. A lot of innovation comes from our own desire to make better and better products.


----------



## WRX/Z28

trust7 said:


> MrSmith, thank you for the well thought out reply, that also kind of makes my point for me. You are indeed correct that those items are problems for JL and your consumers, technical and non-technical alike. However, those issues while can form and indirectly be competitive factors for business operations, are strictly NOT competitors as the original statement I made inquires for. If you as a company do not have other companies that you are looking at, tearing their products apart, researching their implementations and engineering, then you do not truly have competition as a HEALTHY market would demand. No downside or scrub on JL, it is simply a fact that there is very little upper mid level to high end product that JL HAS to compete on, that doesn't mean your products are bad, it simply means that you have successfully pushed your competitors away, which is good in some ways. But I believe all good technology and drive comes from multiple levels of thought and processing. Intel regardless of what they would have you believe has and never will do what they do without AMD or some other company right on their heels, it drives them to be better, the same with Apple and Microsoft, and so forth and so on without Apple, truly we would be SCREWED. The actual only reason Vista got the NO DICE from consumers is because it DID suck and most importantly they didnt HAVE to take it.
> 
> JL ( I will pick one line here and I'll choose amps since thats the thread ) actually has no competition IMO as WRX says.
> 
> Alpine, ROFL, Rockford, maybe in the 80's and 90's today punch anniversary 25 was the closest Mr Hafler ( I know he doesnt own RF any longer so dont tell me that ) has gotten in this decade or anything near it to an amp that was worth the copper the pcb was made of, period, US Amps ? When is their new line coming out ? MTX, Kicker, Kenwood, Clarion, JVC, Sony, Soundstream ( Except POSSIBLY the new reference which I have not personally heard ) Now I think you are insulting me AND everyone else here. JL Audio and those companies relating to amps or drivers really is just not even in the same ballpark nevermind league.
> 
> Focal, sexcellent speakers, Morel again, US Memphis some good amps, Hybrid decent not big enough of a company to matter really IMO but decent stuff, Peer, Scan, Seas Image all good drivers to some people and maybe as an illustration JL has some end point driver competition but amps, comon lets talk real here.
> 
> Again I have well over 1500.00 worth of JL IN my demo truck the one I drive and listen to every day, so I am a hypocrite like everyone else really. I'm just saying Competition IS the heart of invention and JL doesnt have any, at least not in amp land. IMO


Uhm, hello, Focal amps (dual monitor ring a bell)? Tru Technologies? Genesis? Zapco? Alpine? Kenwood Excelon? Rockford Fosgate? Zed?!?!

You are way off base bud... Plenty of amp competition out there... heck, I run TRU and Zed in my own cars. Gonna tell me now that my setup must sound like crap cause JL is the only one who makes a good amp?


----------



## 89grand

trust7 said:


> 89, if you are about to go buy an amp for the RT that is going to drive Focal speakers.
> 
> Exactly, I dont mean a brand, exactly which amp, how much are you going to pay and why do you choose that amp?
> 
> If you say something near Sony, Pioneer, JVC, Kenwood or the like I wont listen, basically give me a real answer.


I don't think the name on the amp is terribly important really. I am considering amps for my car. The JL E,A and G series 6 channels are a good fit, but I also like cost to performance ratios so I'm not not dead set on JL, as other 6 channels are of similar power and can be bridged for 4 channel operation that would work too. 

I'm still looking.

I will say that in the past I considered Sony amps to be mostly ****, but a while back I bought Sony XM-4S, it's a little class D 4 channel. I bought it to go in my Wrangler and since it's subjected to dirt and vibrations way beyond what a normal car goes through, I didn't want to ruin an expensive amp. It was also about the only 4 channel amp that would fit under the seat.

To my surprise it's a pretty solid amp. I've even considered getting two more to run 3 channel and use those in my Magnum instead of the JL 6 channel.

I will admit, while I don't care about having the Sony in my Jeep, I would feel a little embarrassed to run them in my Magnum...even though I shouldn't I guess.

So basically yeah, I have considered exactly what you say you won't listen to me if I say it, a JL or a Sony.


----------



## trust7

Smith this is true and Y/W except what everyone hears in my truck instead of the 1500 worth of JL is a 250.00 MB Quart 4" because you won't give me one.

Besides that your kind of making my point again in PR speak, I know I know you have to do it. Why do Alpine and Rockford sell more than you do in Amps ? Uh one word hyphenated Best-Buy, no really the word is longevity and marketing, ability to hit price points with products that can barely do the job decently, comparing them to you in amps is like smacking my 155 pound doberman and saying wtf man when he barks, its asinine, JL is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY above those specific two companies in quality, again proven by your own statement, they sell tons more than you do and tons of sales is NOT the measure of quality anyone can tell you that. Ask Lamborghini or Ferrari if you don't believe me.

Again true in speakers, crappy speakers dominate, that however doesnt constitute competition, that only means they are out SELLING you, not out BUILDING you.

And being in manufacturing, I know exactly what you do, it never even crossed my mind that you wouldnt look at someone elses product, its your job to, but the wording in the statement " WHEN THERES SOMETHING INTERESTING TO LOOK AT" sort of strikes a chord here doesnt it ?

Let me ask you something which I KNOW you can not answer;

What WAS the last AMP you guys cracked open that you considered a competitors amp to see just what was going on inside ? hmmmmm ? lol.

The last words you stated are exactly why you guys are building great products, if what you said was not true the products would have by now shown their true colors overall and I am glad so very glad that we are all the happy recipients of truly great mid/high end equipment for reasonable money, truly, I honestly just wish a few small things were different.

I wish PG and PPI were still competing with you in amps, I wish Fujitsu ten hand't bought Eclipse and Clarion didnt lose their minds in regards to HU's.

Btw, why don't you guys make a HU ? heheheheh knew I would throw that in, WRX is right, factory head unit replacements with clean amps and features is the future, cars are going to become so complex from the front end it will be hard to do without thinking of the HU and where to go from that point.


----------



## WRX/Z28

trust7 said:


> Let me ask you something which I KNOW you can not answer;
> 
> What WAS the last AMP you guys cracked open that you considered a competitors amp to see just what was going on inside ? hmmmmm ? lol.


Seriously? Was this a joke?

Main Index - Amp Guts


Wow man. You need to spend a little more time reading around here before you post something as off base as that again...


----------



## trust7

WRX - Tru, I said good, Zapco, Zed, no problem but these things are ( skipping that you even tried to snowball **** me with RF and KW ) barely on anyones radar, they barely exist man. Mac, JL, Diamond, a few others are all I see looking around now.

I will admit I have not heard Pioneer Premier PRS-D4200F, any of Pioneers Premier line of amps nor have I heard the new Zapco stuff but comon do I need to hear a 170.00 Amp to know, Its simply impossible monetarily to build something for that kind of money now that COULD sound good, theres too many components, cost on a SINGLE mosfet of audio grade is something like 17.00 at 1000 batch levels matched, how the crap are you building a 170.00 SQ 4-channel like that.give me a break really. not that money is everything. I am no JL Nuthugger either bro, I'm only stating that TRUE real MARKET HEALTHY AVAILABLE QUALITY competition is a, if not THE largest driving force in a product based market. Regardless of "our" opinions here, the simple fact that 89 couldnt answer EASILY is part of it, there just isnt much available, gj JL 

Come back PPI  As a side note WRX I do NOT myself think the Epsilon PPI will be worth a ****, but I WILL buy it, if it is, just to see.


89grand - in a jeep, sony no problem, can't hear a difference no question, nothing wrong in my mind there, I have a jeep on 35's with two PYLE 6x9's on the roll bar driven with a hold your breath, Pyramid amp. I know, I know. but it wont DIE, it wont die man, rained on CONTINUOUSLY mud, dirt, more rain, won't die, cant bring myself to get rid of it, its like a radioactive bug or something lol.


----------



## trust7

WRX/Z28 said:


> Seriously? Was this a joke?
> 
> Main Index - Amp Guts
> 
> 
> Wow man. You need to spend a little more time reading around here before you post something as off base as that again...


I know what amp guts is and what does that have anything to do with the fact that anyone that works at JL could and WOULD never admit to what products they internally research at least not openly or they shouldnt. And looking at some pictures is not tearing into exactly what is going on inside something electrically and electronically, which is what I was talking about. I'm sure everyone in the universe looks at guts pictures.


----------



## JAX

trust7 said:


> I read all 9 pages and I come to a few conclusions:
> 
> 1. I think yes, why yes I do beleive you ARE a JL nuthugger ( using you and another doods werd here heh ) although they IMO are a decent company TO nuthug if you so choose.
> 
> 2. JL for me is a technical company, one that quite a lot of time loses sight OF exactly its customers, who actually in the **** wants the amps well.. I will just stop there before I start another 8 pages of crap, lets just say, they are in business #1 to make money #2 to listen to people, but its hard to do that when #1 is to make money and #2 is affected by your PERCEPTION of what #1 is and how you got that information. Long story short JL is a company and they listen to themselves and a LITTLE bit the customer, it just happens that having not only an engineering degree and a psych degree AND an associates in technology and 20 years of network management while owning two car audio stores I know just a "touch" about a few things technical and when I can't have a civil conversation with ANYONE tech or sales at JL simply to ORDER A REPLACEMENT DRIVER THROUGH MY STORE ?????? WTF, seriously WTF. Too long of a story to recant but suffice to say, irritating big time.
> 
> 3. Yes people are fickle as ****, they don't know WHAT they want much less when they get it they are like oooooh umm no cash right now, sorry I said I would buy it if you made it LOL WOOPS, yeah I get it but shesus, can we listen to the guys that have 60 amps of EACH BRAND ( you and me im talking about here ) on their couches, living rooms, bedrooms, garages, can we take THEIR opinions for anything or no are they just full of **** too ? I mean if I took a picture of my garage you would not only say ******** that doesnt exist you would probably say I have a degree in photoshop, nope no bs, does owing hundreds of something make you a certified master, nope but does it lend SOME credibility to knowledge or at least purchasing power/ability, **** YES IT DOES. So no, no hype to the retards, retards listen up, put up your dollars OR STFU, its that simple I Like one of the guys said it best earlier in this thread when he said it ( the ppi new ) would either suck balls or not and ( maybe this was you ) it would be shown my mf's putting up dollars or not and thats that.
> 
> 4. The JL daughterboard issue was a bad design, **** where you mount it, solid state machinery should be just that, if you can't mount an amp to a sub box that IS a sub amp, your **** SUCKS period. I'm not saying the / 500 is **** im saying its a mistake one that was corrected, it was only an example of JL being human in company terms but only so one-sided, they are readily ok with so forth and so on but if you call upon them to admit the humanity/mistakes like every other company they refuse.
> I get it its bad business, it puts people OUT of business, I dont want JL to go under I just want a ****ING FOUR INCH DRIVER YOU ****S!!!!!!
> 
> /rant/bastardizing/jokes
> 
> 
> JAX - Good Catch.
> 
> I really only mentioned several cars ( I sell cars on the side nowadays hence so much ownership information ) that I beleive were fun and reliable, honestly the Rx-7 was thrown in to see if anyone was listening and you were lol, Rx-7 and reliable in the same sentence, ****all, you must be kidding. Granted if you are ME and you Pre-Mix your 7000.00 Motors they last a lifetime and my 90T2 and 93CYM are both on 2nd or 3rd motors both having gotten WELL over 150-180K a peice on them easily, the only reason I rebuild them is a. I know how and b. they do lose SOME small amount of compression with being boosted non stop like a ignorant maniac that I am.
> 
> Did I ever tell you the story of my Canon ball run from Houston back to my house in North Richland Hills ? It goes something like this:
> 1. Start out at Deer Park, Texas ( suburb of south houston)
> 2. Go to NRH Tx, (Suburb of Ft Worth )
> 3. End in 2 Hours 12 minutes
> 4. 93 CYM
> 5. Yes thats an average of 127MPH
> 6. Cops you ask ?
> 6a. Juniper or some **** city 1/3 way home DPS Trooper, pull on to the freeway ( facing same way as me ) turns on lights, I blow by at 188 and push the pedal down, he turns off lights and gets back on side of the road. I dont let up til I see 19X ish ( speedo stops at 180) and many miles later
> 6b. centerville 1/2 way home, Sherriff, opposite side, turns around ( I'm at 130 - 140 when he clocks me ) turns lights on, I see dust in the median ( while my foot is inside the radiator ((smashing the fux out of the gas )) from him ass hauling around to come get me, I hit 160, 170, 180 pass Sheriff #2 same side at about 185 ish, he pulls out lights on, and going..................going......................small speck in mirror, check, barely see lights, check.......................gone. Don't let off the gas from 185 ish until Ennis comes up.
> 7. Ennis REALLY fuxed me btw I truly think sub 2 hours minus Ennis, SO MANY FUXING COPS like 20 of them lowered my average by so much, 9 minutes driving through Ennis, fuxers.
> 
> /story
> 
> Anyhow, oh by the way my wife in the car, LOVED IT.
> 
> /story2
> 
> Anyhow No Rx-7s are not reliable if you dont know how to take care of cars and some aren't even if you do quite a bit, but I would take an Rx-7 or an Rx-3 or a **** wankel truck or a cosmo over a Doge or Ford ANY day.
> 
> Hey did I tell you guys about the story of my 2010 Mustang that my wife fuxing BEGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGED me to spend 38k on that had a harmonic balancer go out at 800miles, an oil pump charge mechanism at 1050 miles and a cam tensioner at 1200 miles ? No ?
> 
> Junk I say, Junk. Weird though how my 1995 Honda has 280+k on it and has seen less shop time than every American car combined/divided/exponentially to the 10th power that I have owned in the last 5 years, weird.
> 
> /rant2/jokes2
> 
> 
> Long ass stories ended, everyone has their own thoughts, cars, amps etc, I like whoever say pay or stfu, you guys all pay to prove/show your nuthugging, and I clap for that, I will do the same. On the PPI deal no ppi won't be PPI ever again, could it be GOOD yes and I pray to god it is, love to see it, the new PG stuff looks potentially good, specs wise.
> 
> But this is why I now own 3 newly powdercoated, plexi-bottomed, polished, scoped and spec'ed PPI PC series amps, cuz they're the ****ttttttttttttttttt.


OK I enjoyed the RX 7 stories....cause I know its possiblem and have been in some that fast.....I will give that to you......must have been pretty sweet .....could have been a deadly nightmare though in that little ass race car...and they are just that..little ass race cars.....too bad Mazda didnt get the full potential out of the motor...


----------



## WRX/Z28

trust7 said:


> WRX - Tru, I said good, Zapco, Zed, no problem but these things are ( skipping that you even tried to snowball **** me with RF and KW ) barely on anyones radar, they barely exist man. Mac, JL, Diamond, a few others are all I see looking around now.


Silly talk there bud. 

TRU makes phenomenal amps. RF and Kenwoods full range class D amps are direct competitors for JL's slash and HD amps respectively. 

As Manville stated (and I think he know's a thing or two), Rockford and Alpine outsell them. So what do you mean by "barely on anyone's radar"? 

You clearly are brand biased without basis here...


----------



## WRX/Z28

trust7 said:


> I know what amp guts is and what does that have anything to do with the fact that anyone that works at JL could and WOULD never admit to what products they internally research at least not openly or they shouldnt. And looking at some pictures is not tearing into exactly what is going on inside something electrically and electronically, which is what I was talking about. I'm sure everyone in the universe looks at guts pictures.


I'm sure Manville can comment on that. I'd be willing to bet that they've seen everyone elses amplifier product internally...


----------



## trust7

Ok WRX your right, Ford and Ferrari ARE direct competitors, refuse to get the frame of reference and you are then correct, No, incorrect.

Alpine, Rockford, Outsell, Time, Marketing, PLACEMENT, OUTSELL does NOT equal competition for driving and innovation purposes, they are no MATTER what you say NOT on equal footing with the engineering going on at JL or old PPI or even some of the current like Tru etc, simply NOT competition, again I say for INNOVATION purposes as has been the point the entire time.

I will wait to her from Mv about what actual amp they cracked open that THEY saw as interesting and why before responding about this part again, I think we should all wait for that with baited breath. Aren't YOU interested to know who JL thinks is interesting ?

Back to work for a bit for me guys bbl, enjoyed haggling with you all, all in fun for me.
and Yeah Jax, there were about 2 close calls, at 180+ the road is ripping past you pretty damn fast. Lets just say the 15.5inch brembo discs and 3pot porsche calipers pulled us down pretty ridiculously quick more than a few times on that trip heh.


----------



## 89grand

trust7 said:


> the simple fact that 89 couldnt answer EASILY is part of it, there just isnt much available, gj JL


The only reason why I can't name a bunch of choices is because I have certain criteria for this particular car, that in fact is the reason JL is being considered, because it would suite this particular install. 6 channel amps are not everywhere.

My last system, before I totaled that car, had JBL amps in it. I was more than happy with those amps. Again, because I'm looking for a 6 channel amp that can be bridged to 4 channels for 2 more powerful channels is the reason I'm looking at JL primarily. If I was just looking for say a 4 channel and a mono, I could name a lot of amps I'd consider.


----------



## 89grand

Besides, something tells me there wouldn't be JL HD amps on the market as we speak had it not been for the Alpine PDX.

Not taking anything away from JL, they make great amps, but they don't invent everything good, and there are many amps and speakers on the same level. Suggesting JL is Ferrari while most other brands named here so far are Ford is ridiculous.

I think I'll just get out of this one, it's going absolutely no where.


----------



## WRX/Z28

trust7 said:


> Ok WRX your right, Ford and Ferrari ARE direct competitors, refuse to get the frame of reference and you are then correct, No, incorrect.


Hello, GT40?? Hello ZR1 (for chevy references). 

These are competitors, like it or not.


----------



## ryan s

WRX/Z28 said:


> Silly talk there bud.
> 
> TRU makes phenomenal amps. RF and Kenwoods full range class D amps are direct competitors for JL's slash and HD amps respectively.
> 
> As Manville stated (and I think he know's a thing or two), Rockford and Alpine outsell them. So what do you mean by "barely on anyone's radar"?
> 
> You clearly are brand biased without basis here...


I think he was inferring that Tru, Zed, Zapco, etc are "barely on anyone's radar." To which, I had a hearty LOL :laugh: Maybe they're not considered by "mainstream" consumers since Best Buy doesn't stock them, but we're anything but "mainstream" here at DIYMA 

At least, that's what I would gather from skimming posts flawed in every way possible regarding the use of English :surprised:


----------



## msmith

trust7 said:


> Smith this is true and Y/W except what everyone hears in my truck instead of the 1500 worth of JL is a 250.00 MB Quart 4" because you won't give me one.


We're releasing a 3-way with a 4-inch mid in a couple of months.



> Besides that your kind of making my point again in PR speak, I know I know you have to do it. Why do Alpine and Rockford sell more than you do in Amps ? Uh one word hyphenated Best-Buy, no really the word is longevity and marketing, ability to hit price points with products that can barely do the job decently, comparing them to you in amps is like smacking my 155 pound doberman and saying wtf man when he barks, its asinine, JL is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY above those specific two companies in quality, again proven by your own statement, they sell tons more than you do and tons of sales is NOT the measure of quality anyone can tell you that. Ask Lamborghini or Ferrari if you don't believe me.


We choose not to sell through Best Buy, but our products compete against Best Buy's brands and all the other retailers who sell those brands.

The measure of business success is sales and profit. If you don't have products that can compete against the mainstream products on price/performance then you are at a competitive disadvantage. We make high end products and we also make mid-level and entry level products that compete DIRECTLY against the Japanese brands and the larger American brands. While we are competitive, we are far from dominant. Compared to Pioneer, Kenwood and Alpine, we are a much smaller company... but we enjoy being a tough competitor for them.



> Again true in speakers, crappy speakers dominate, that however doesnt constitute competition, that only means they are out SELLING you, not out BUILDING you.


Our crappy speakers are better than their crappy speakers, but they still sell a lot of theirs. You ought to know... Best Buy moves a ton of them! :laugh:



> And being in manufacturing, I know exactly what you do, it never even crossed my mind that you wouldnt look at someone elses product, its your job to, but the wording in the statement " WHEN THERES SOMETHING INTERESTING TO LOOK AT" sort of strikes a chord here doesnt it ?
> 
> Let me ask you something which I KNOW you can not answer;
> 
> What WAS the last AMP you guys cracked open that you considered a competitors amp to see just what was going on inside ? hmmmmm ? lol.


Arc Mini 4 channel, I think... or maybe the 2kW Alpine. It's called benchmarking... everyone does it (or should). It's good to see how the competition is approaching design, parts selection, assembly techniques, etc. 



> The last words you stated are exactly why you guys are building great products, if what you said was not true the products would have by now shown their true colors overall and I am glad so very glad that we are all the happy recipients of truly great mid/high end equipment for reasonable money, truly, I honestly just wish a few small things were different.


Hey, there's always room for improvement and you can't ever satisfy everyone with your product.



> I wish PG and PPI were still competing with you in amps, I wish Fujitsu ten hand't bought Eclipse and Clarion didnt lose their minds in regards to HU's.


Fujitsu Ten always owned Eclipse... it was Fujitsu's aftermarket brand from the beginning (back in 1987 or so). As for PPI, it was already dying as we were starting in the amp biz, so we never really competed hard against them. If you'll recall, we were allied to some extent in the early 90's, along with MB Quart and Streetwires.



> Btw, why don't you guys make a HU ?


No interest in it right now... not our area of expertise. But you never know what the future might hold... I never say 'never'. Wait, I just did... never mind.



> heheheheh knew I would throw that in, WRX is right, factory head unit replacements with clean amps and features is the future, cars are going to become so complex from the front end it will be hard to do without thinking of the HU and where to go from that point.


Yeah, well... we led the way with CleanSweep, so you're preaching to the choir on that one.


----------



## msmith

89grand said:


> Besides, something tells me there wouldn't be JL HD amps on the market as we speak had it not been for the Alpine PDX.


Actually we were working on the HD's before Alpine showed the PDX's... they just beat us to market by a year. Great minds think alike.


----------



## Acuraholic

always enjoyed my a/d/s/ PH and PQ amps


----------



## WLDock

trust7 said:


> No real offense, but, ****ing dumbass.


 No real offense but, ****ing *******! 

Yeah Toyota and Honda have been at the top in quality but FORD and GM have come a long way. Ford is gaining ground in terms of quality and even leading in some areas in safety. Also, GM is gaining ground. Buick and Cadillac have gotten much better and are right up there.

While I admit American cars have had some serious issues, we all know of someone that has had an import that was almost "lemon" like plagued with issues. Overall, American cars are better but need to be much better going forward.

Myself, being a son of an Detroit autoworker I have been through the ups and downs of the industry. I had a father that worked for Chrysler but would only buy FORD. I later became a German import lover and drove VW's and a BMW. But, I think there are now good American branded cars out there. I have HIGH hopes that cars like the Buick LaCrosse and FORD Taurus for example will redefine what is possible. The mistakes of the past have devistated this area as there are so many lost jobs , homes, and pretty much an average middle class way of life. The only way for American car companies to stay in this thing is for consumers to not give up and demand better cars. Support them we they do something right.

So, if you think it is dumbass to buy a domestic....that is cool. But, not all feel that way.


----------



## PPI_GUY

I agree with a previous poster in that I am sure JL gets ahold of competitors stuff all the time for r&d purposes. I know all of the big American automakers use this practice.

Back to the original topic. The new PPI stuff may be be junk or it may be fantastic. It won't take long for word to get out, one way or another. I for one, will not convict or proclaim them until I see some info, test results and real world user feeback. 

I sent another email to Grizz Archer today inquiring about when we will be able to see pics, specs and details of the new PPI. I got an automated replay that he would be out of the office until Thursday, the 14th. So, hopefully we will know more then.


----------



## trust7

ryan s said:


> I think he was inferring that Tru, Zed, Zapco, etc are "barely on anyone's radar." To which, I had a hearty LOL :laugh: Maybe they're not considered by "mainstream" consumers since Best Buy doesn't stock them, but we're anything but "mainstream" here at DIYMA
> 
> At least, that's what I would gather from skimming posts flawed in every way possible regarding the use of English :surprised:


Not exactly what I meant, and Best Buy for the record is the LAST place in the universe I would use for anything except showing what is/can be sold like nobodies business and thats all, nothing about quality, not that if you look closely you can't find anything worthwhile just that is not the focus at all.

Mr.Smith

1. What does a 4" in a 3-way set have to do with anything ? You don't/won't sell me that 4" so who actually gives a crap, what you want me to buy your 6.5 Zr set TWICE and then buy ANOTHER 3 way set to get your 4" ? Skeezy business man.

2. This statement is mostly true, however without the "ability" to show truly great hardware QUALITY wise you can't "compete" with anyone, I dont honestly know why we are having this back and forth, because you know how this business works and so do i. Ferrari builds the 40 or the Enzo not because its meant to compete with the GT40 or the Corvette ROFL to that WRX ROFL I say, they build the car as a showcase of their ability, THEN the mainstream is built with the same principles and lower quality/priced components so everyone can own part of an Enzo, its just called a Testarossa. (actually in car town the F1 cars are the design models and all things drop from there, same point though). In this business the same stands true except more of the build to price WHILE keeping some quality in mind with the ability to compete, is the mentality.

No offense taken that you don't sell through Best Buy if you did I would very very very likely stop using your products, it would be a good move for the companies bottom line and as RF,KW, Sony and the like have shown a basic compromise of quality at the same time. - As a side note I really myself don't care to entertain opinion on this particular thing, I have been around and inside manufacturing my whole life and in car audio for greater than 25 years also, I have seen it from the beginning to now I know what happens.

3. Crappy speakers rule, what can I say you are right, BB sells a metric fux ton I choose to send people in DFW to my old stores or other places that sell better things if they want good sound.

4. Agreed, I like the Arc quite a bit from a design perspective the THD and S/N are way way way too low IMO but I have not heard the amp so I cannot comment per se, interesting though, very much so at least your answer was a 500.00+ amp with a very unique feature set!

5. True

6. Not True at all actually, Kobe and Onkyo owned the car stereo division of what would become Eclipse from Fujitsu directly long before Fujitsu TEN actually existed, not entirely wrong what you said but Fujitsu Ten DID indeed BUY Eclipse from Fujitsu limited and then make a hard push in to car audio in the early 80's I beleive 83/82 bah can't remember any more lol.
What I really meant to say here was that I really wish Onkyo and Kobe had stayed solvent or pulled engineering over with them OR as a last resort Fujitsu Ten just simply didnt sell out and destroy Eclipse, but honestly who the fux am I to say because FJT and Eclipse still exist where many have fallen by the way side now so, I guess I just speak of quality too much when less people are worried about that anymore, mainstream wise.

7. Yeah I wish you guys would make a Head Unit, other than finding a Clarion DRZ or a HK the Alpine 9887 or whatever is the only decent thing I know of right now under 750.00 ( anyone correct me if I am wrong ) 

**** what do I even care, I run an IWA-505 with 4 Tv's and all that jazz in the Tundra, that thing sounds like doooooodooooo 

Go figure my 9887 is the Rx-7 the 90 one, the louder one so I can't really even appreciate it unless the car is off heh. Although when the car IS off:
9887 - AC 4.1 - PPI PC2350 / JL 12w7 x 2 - PPI Pro 650 - MbQ Q 6.5, 4, 1 - old school MBQ 3-way xovers - JL 8w7 x 2 

WLDOCK - that was mostly in jest obviously, but yes the American automakers and families have had a real hard time, and as I said before I don't WANT the companies to go down, but they need to man, they need to be able to shed the Unions and start over.

Did you know a Ford Taurus and a Toyota Camry ACTUAL cost, not invoice not dealer cost, what it costs the company to make the car, the Taurus is 2,000.00 USD MORE than the Camry, how is it possible with so much bloat BUILT IN to the system for America to ever get it right with a product that is starting so far behind.

I feel the pain, I just wish we could get a new set of companies not run by government for fux sake that is def not the answer.



PPI Guy I said that a long while ago, what the hell is the hold up, did they not even show anything AT CES ?


----------



## WRX/Z28

trust7 said:


> 1. What does a 4" in a 3-way set have to do with anything ? You don't/won't sell me that 4" so who actually gives a crap, what you want me to buy your 6.5 Zr set TWICE and then buy ANOTHER 3 way set to get your 4" ? Skeezy business man.


That's a huge insult for something you based on your own flawed assumption. IIRC, JL sells replacement drivers piece meal, so why wouldn't you be able to just buy the 4"? I'm sure Manville can chime in here.



trust7 said:


> 2. This statement is mostly true, however without the "ability" to show truly great hardware QUALITY wise you can't "compete" with anyone, I dont honestly know why we are having this back and forth, because you know how this business works and so do i. Ferrari builds the 40 or the Enzo not because its meant to compete with the GT40 or the Corvette ROFL to that WRX ROFL I say, they build the car as a showcase of their ability, THEN the mainstream is built with the same principles and lower quality/priced components so everyone can own part of an Enzo, its just called a Testarossa. (actually in car town the F1 cars are the design models and all things drop from there, same point though). In this business the same stands true except more of the build to price WHILE keeping some quality in mind with the ability to compete, is the mentality.


Your rambling is extremely hard to understand. I would say that the ZR1 was a showcase of GM's ability. In reality, GM has 1000 times the R&D power that Ferrari does. Combine that with the fact that Ferrari is not exactly known for quality (GASP) no matter what you heard. 

At the end of the day, the ZR1 will mop the floor with the Enzo, and has proven so on the nurburgring, and don't even get the drag strip in your head. Regardless, they are in competition, whether you choose to believe it or not. 



trust7 said:


> 4. Agreed, I like the Arc quite a bit from a design perspective the THD and S/N are way way way too low IMO but I have not heard the amp so I cannot comment per se, interesting though, very much so at least your answer was a 500.00+ amp with a very unique feature set!


What do THD and S/N have to do with the quality of an amp? It's been shown in numerous threads here on DIYMA that these specs are practically meaningless in today's amps. Also, what does the $500 price tag have to do with anything. Are you under the beleif that more $ automatically = better product?



trust7 said:


> 6. Not True at all actually, Kobe and Onkyo owned the car stereo division of what would become Eclipse from Fujitsu directly long before Fujitsu TEN actually existed, not entirely wrong what you said but Fujitsu Ten DID indeed BUY Eclipse from Fujitsu limited and then make a hard push in to car audio in the early 80's I beleive 83/82 bah can't remember any more lol.
> What I really meant to say here was that I really wish Onkyo and Kobe had stayed solvent or pulled engineering over with them OR as a last resort Fujitsu Ten just simply didnt sell out and destroy Eclipse, but honestly who the fux am I to say because FJT and Eclipse still exist where many have fallen by the way side now so, I guess I just speak of quality too much when less people are worried about that anymore, mainstream wise.


You are an idiot. Eclipse wasn't brought about until 1988. Kobe and Fujitsu MERGED in 1968, one year after Fujitsu Ten LTD. was created. 

So, being that Fujitsu was around before Kobe, and then merged a full 20 YEARS before eclipse existed. I'd say that Eclipse was always a Fujitsu Ten Company. All this in reference to your statement:


trust7 said:


> I wish PG and PPI were still competing with you in amps, I wish Fujitsu ten hand't bought Eclipse and Clarion didnt lose their minds in regards to HU's.


So you are saying that you wish Fujitsu Ten hadn't MERGED with Kobe in 1968? 
What were you saying? Like Manville said, Eclipse has always been a Fujitsu Ten brand. 

For your reference: FUJITSU TEN


----------



## rexroadj

This is going to hurt me more then anyone else here.......WRX is %100 right in this last post......about the jl parts ordering, about the zr1 comparison(%100 about quality, one of my best friends was a mechanic at a local ferrari dealer....Oh the stories I could tell!!!) and about Eclipse (thats kinda common knowledge, and like all the other stuff is easily attainable knowledge with minor looking.....On another note...
This thread is one of the worst turns I have ever seen, and based on some of the bs. thats on this sight thats saying something....... Not to continue to be a complete A-Hole but before you write one more thing Trust7 can you please proof read/take some english classes? You might as well be writing in a foreign language.....Your posts make 0 sense? Unless I am the only one that has no friggin clue what the hell you are trying to say?


----------



## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> This is going to hurt me more then anyone else here.......WRX is %100 right in this last post......about the jl parts ordering, about the zr1 comparison(%100 about quality, one of my best friends was a mechanic at a local ferrari dealer....Oh the stories I could tell!!!) and about Eclipse (thats kinda common knowledge, and like all the other stuff is easily attainable knowledge with minor looking.....On another note...
> This thread is one of the worst turns I have ever seen, and based on some of the bs. thats on this sight thats saying something....... Not to continue to be a complete A-Hole but before you write one more thing Trust7 can you please proof read/take some english classes? You might as well be writing in a foreign language.....Your posts make 0 sense? Unless I am the only one that has no friggin clue what the hell you are trying to say?




I agree. Trust7, reading your posts takes forever to decipher what you are actually trying to say. Your convoluted writing style is painful to read. Please simplify what you are trying to say, and proofread everything before you post it.


----------



## Apinche

He shots for 1!
Ohhh its good~!


----------



## WRX/Z28

Rexroadj-- FWIW, I never said the new PPI's would be bad amps. I simply said they wouldn't be PPI's. They may have the name, they may have the cosmetics, but they'll have as much to do with the art series as any other amp out there.

They could wind up to be phenomenal amplifiers, but IMO they should stand on their own merrits, and not piggy back off the legacy of another company. 

I think you and I agree more than you'd like to think. lol


----------



## rexroadj

Perhaps....My only point I was trying to make to people is that the amps should not be judged by the parent company.....I agree there track record is not what I would look for as far as a pedigree goes, but having owned the ss ref amps I know they can had have changed (when they want to) so there is a chance that they can do great things with this new line....Personally I dont mind the fact that they are bringing back the ppi name, art, soundstream ref. I know they are not the same or similar but so far there good and thats all that matters to me.... I know a lot of people dont like that its the same name and completely different company and I can understand that....It just doesnt bother me, I could care less what the name on the outside is.... On another note!!! Any chance we can get a sneak peak on those new jl 3ways? I think that is what was missing the most in the jl line up! I like the zr sets but felt the midrange needed a little more umpf....maybe going active would have helped.... Adding a 4" mid should make this set a real contender in the dying 3way world! I am excited about this.... If they just made a 300/2 (power, not model #) amp. That would be a nice fit for the 3ways..

WRX lets go have a beer and call it a day!


----------



## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> Perhaps....My only point I was trying to make to people is that the amps should not be judged by the parent company.....I agree there track record is not what I would look for as far as a pedigree goes, but having owned the ss ref amps I know they can had have changed (when they want to) so there is a chance that they can do great things with this new line....Personally I dont mind the fact that they are bringing back the ppi name, art, soundstream ref. I know they are not the same or similar but so far there good and thats all that matters to me.... I know a lot of people dont like that its the same name and completely different company and I can understand that....It just doesnt bother me, I could care less what the name on the outside is.... On another note!!! Any chance we can get a sneak peak on those new jl 3ways? I think that is what was missing the most in the jl line up! I like the zr sets but felt the midrange needed a little more umpf....maybe going active would have helped.... Adding a 4" mid should make this set a real contender in the dying 3way world! I am excited about this.... If they just made a 300/2 (power, not model #) amp. That would be a nice fit for the 3ways..
> 
> WRX lets go have a beer and call it a day!


Agree'd. :beerchug:

BTW, have you listened to the ZR's with the midrange adjustment turned up?

I agree that JL needs a 3way set, and a larger 2 channel amp. 

Yah could take (2) 300/2 and bridge each for 300x2.


----------



## rexroadj

I am not sure what the setting was on the xover? It was not bad in anyway thats for sure....Could have been a series of things...install, power,eq, etc.... It just seemed distant to me? Yeah there are plenty of options amp wise....Thats why I dont stick to any single brand, I look for what fits my needs power wise, etc...... I really dont want to do 3 amps (one for each side and one for my sub) I just want to simplify things....I am sure it will change, as it always does! But its not all bad cause it gives me tons of oppertunitys to try new stuff.....Things I really really like I keep whether I use it or not, but I do love to try out new stuff....

Sooooooooo new ppi amps.......great or greatest amps?


----------



## W8 a minute

WRX/Z28 said:


> I want board shots!!!!
> 
> I want pics!!!!
> 
> Actually, how about some details other than the guys swinging from Grizz's nuts telling us not to bash them?


LOL. It's not nut swinging. I consider this a site of reference and I think it's best to stick to the facts. I'm not sticking up for Grizz as much as I am sticking up for this forum. Please stop posting outright lies. It underminds your status as a retalier and an industry expert when you can't separate the facts from your own personal emotions. As Grizz stated the *Reference Series* has it's own boards. If you can PROVE otherwise I'll shut up. When I'm wrong I am more than happy to admit it. I'm human, it does happen sometime.

Here is one of my replies to Grizz from last year:


W8 a minute said:


> I remember Circuit City selling D series Soundstream amps and velvet hammers when they first opened. I remember them selling excelon, premier, and several other brands that were "protected territories" at the time. All brands that stabbed the local retailer in the back.
> 
> I guess I'm jaded from being in the industry back in the day but I rarely trust anything a company rep tells me about "integrity" honor" or "promises"
> 
> Sales are sales. Period. I'll take my chances on the internet.
> 
> Show some gut pics, list some device part numbers, show me more than a pretty extrusion and I might believe you're trying to improve. Nothing personal, just my experience.


Oh, and here is a post from Grizz. Based on your posts in other threads maybe YOU should be the one nut huggin:


Grizz Archer said:


> The brick and mortar sore are what keep us in business, not the few harmful sales on Ebay.
> 
> When a $500 amps sells for $300 on Ebay, a store will not buy it for $250 since they will not make any money. So a few people get a great deal, but then the line disappears.
> 
> So you really think everything should be whored out online? I guess if a person is an enthusiats, they do not wany topay retail prices. Nobody does. But it this reason that so many company have come and gone. Look at Directed. They killed PPI. We bought it and I an working hard on it now. They dropped video which is a bad sign, but good for us. Orion is not what is used to be. I hope you can respectfully appreciate my point of view and I can with yours.





WRX/Z28 said:


> +1 for most of what you said.
> 
> Even if consumers don't think they need dealers, Manufacturers realize that they do. Otherwise, most companies would just be factory direct, and promote their products for themselves.


----------



## WRX/Z28

W8 a minute said:


> LOL. It's not nut swinging. I consider this a site of reference and I think it's best to stick to the facts. I'm not sticking up for Grizz as much as I am sticking up for this forum. Please stop posting outright lies. It underminds your status as a retalier and an industry expert when you can't separate the facts from your own personal emotions. As Grizz stated the *Reference Series* has it's own boards. If you can PROVE otherwise I'll shut up. When I'm wrong I am more than happy to admit it. I'm human, it does happen sometime.


What lies? If you are going to call me a liar, you better be prepared to explain yourself, otherwise you end up looking like a douchebag. Take some time, review my posts, and tell me which one I lied in?


----------



## W8 a minute

WRX/Z28 said:


> What lies? If you are going to call me a liar, you better be prepared to explain yourself, otherwise you end up looking like a douchebag. Take some time, review my posts, and tell me which one I lied in?


That has already been covered. Take some time and review my posts then YOU figure out which ones YOU failed on. I think it's pretty obvious.


----------



## WRX/Z28

W8 a minute said:


> That has already been covered. Take some time and review my posts then YOU figure out which ones YOU failed on. I think it's pretty obvious.


That's what I thought you'd say. Nothing to back it up. You are a moron.

I haven't stated anything that was false *.*


----------



## W8 a minute

WRX/Z28 said:


> That's what I thought you'd say. Nothing to back it up. You are a moron.
> 
> I haven't stated anything that was false *.*


I'll refrain from cheap name calling. But you make reference to Kole amplifiers when mentioning the new PPI amplifiers. You back your statement by saying PREVIOUS Soundstream amplifiers shared boards. This is misleading and it seems to be intentional. Yes, they did. P-R-E-V-I-O-U-S-L-Y. Do you understand that word? Previously. I don't think you do. Or maybe you do because you keep cherry picking my comments to reply thus avoiding the real statements. Ommiting the facts or failure to present them is still lying.

Since the new Soundstream boards are not shared what makes you think the new PPI boards will be shared? 

Or better yet lets keep this simple and just answer THIS ONE question for me:
*Are the new Soundstream Reference boards shared with another amplifier?*


----------



## WRX/Z28

W8 a minute said:


> I'll refrain from cheap name calling. But you make reference to Kole amplifiers when mentioning the new PPI amplifiers. You back your statement by saying PREVIOUS Soundstream amplifiers shared boards. This is misleading and it seems to be intentional. Yes, they did. P-R-E-V-I-O-U-S-L-Y. Do you understand that word? Previously. I don't think you do. Or maybe you do because you keep cherry picking my comments to reply thus avoiding the real statements. Ommiting the facts or failure to present them is still lying.
> 
> Since the new Soundstream boards are not shared what makes you think the new PPI boards will be shared?
> 
> Or better yet lets keep this simple and just answer THIS ONE question for me:
> *Are the new Soundstream Reference boards shared with another amplifier?*


I stated that the same company that makes PPI makes Kole and Power acoustik. Is this false? Did I lie? I don't think so. 

I never stated that the current soundstream boards were shared. I simply linked to a thread where they said *A* soundstream amp had shared boards with a power acoustik. I then stated that I thought they were never shared. Where did I lie here? 

What did I cherry pick? I don't see that part anywhere either...

I did not ommit facts. Where are you getting this from? 

You are delusional my friend...

As to whether the current boards are shared or not, that remains to be seen. I never stated otherwise. I simply pointed out another thread where Soundstream amps had used Power Acoustik boards. Don't read any more into it, that's your main problem...

As to the name calling, You called me a liar, when I clearly did not lie. That makes you a moron, which is more a statement of fact than an attempt at name calling.


----------



## 89grand

I can't believe we're still arguing over an amp that isn't even made yet.


----------



## WRX/Z28

89grand said:


> I can't believe we're still arguing over an amp that isn't even made yet.


I'm not arguing about amps anymore. I'm arguing about moron's that call me a liar. lol :laugh:


----------



## W8 a minute

W8 a minute said:


> *Are the new Soundstream Reference boards shared with another amplifier?*


Still not answered.


----------



## rexroadj

89grand said:


> I can't believe we're still arguing over an amp that isn't even made yet.


? I thought you already had one?


----------



## WRX/Z28

W8 a minute said:


> Still not answered.


Post #246, 6 lines down. 

Reading>you


----------



## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> ? I thought you already had one?


That was just the prototype...


----------



## 89grand

rexroadj said:


> ? I thought you already had one?


Yeah, it's a prototype. Production versions will be slightly different, but only slightly. I wished I hadn't shown it though because I have been bombarded with offers to buy that beauty.


----------



## rexroadj

For the record the ss ref boards are not shared with any of there other products.....will they implent similar designs throught epsilon? Do they use some of the same parts throughout the company? Of course! why wouldnt they, it would be pretty dumb and very expensive not too. I dont think that really matters to much either! The new soundstream ref. are not power acoustic or kole amps...I dont know for sure since they are not out, but was told that the new ppi will not be the same as the ss ref nor will they be the same as the pa or kole. Aside from that I dont know, I do know that the arguing (especially me) is not helping nor is it going anywhere, and I appologize to those I insulted and appologize to the op for my partaking in this mess!


----------



## rexroadj

Also I would like to add.... so that I am not looked at as a nut swinger (for this at least) I love my soundstream ref amps..... I was very pleasently supprised by them. However I would not own anything else they make. The other amp lines, speakers, subs, etc... I tried there new biggest baddest thing (so to speak) and it was/is great! But that does not mean I think everything else they **** are rainbows! If they decide to continue the same platform or intent on making a better product using the ppi art name then I will look forward to giving them a shot, but I also know it could turn out to be just like the other stuff. Not bad, just not for me. Thats all I wanted to add for my own sake....


----------



## jel847

ooops


----------



## W8 a minute

W8 a minute said:


> *Are the new Soundstream Reference boards shared with another amplifier?*



Okay WRX/Z28, Yes or no? Do some research and get back to me.

Just yes or no. Nothing else, no cute response, just yes or no. Pretty damn simple.


----------



## WRX/Z28

W8 a minute said:


> Okay WRX/Z28, Yes or no? Do some research and get back to me.
> 
> Just yes or no. Nothing else, no cute response, just yes or no. Pretty damn simple.





WRX/Z28 said:


> As to whether the current boards are shared or not, that remains to be seen. I never stated otherwise. I simply pointed out another thread where Soundstream amps had used Power Acoustik boards. Don't read any more into it, that's your main problem...


I figured you missed it the first time.


----------



## starboy869

Wow just wow. I'm just going to play the waiting game on this one. No sense bitching about something that isn't even made yet.


----------



## TeamLorett

starboy869 said:


> Wow just wow. I'm just going to play the waiting game on this one. No sense bitching about something that isn't even made yet.


The art series will return as well as the power class and Sedona, I have seen them all and the amps look good with excellent SQ. The subs will take a bit of getting used to but I love the Art series subs. Lower wattage with a old school look. A excellent audiophile grade SQ sub with great performance. The PDX amp is a new PPI item and is released. It is not a special item that you have to have some special ties to get one. It is the only amp in the PDX class. Also there is a new line up called the PS/Pro series. I have pics straight form PPI but will only share if the $ is right. LOL


----------



## W8 a minute

I guess WRX/Z28 is never going to answer my question so I'll post it the answer.

The answer is this:
The Refererence series does NOT share a board with any Kole amplifiers. Therefore we have no reason to suspect the new ART series will either. WRX/Z28's comments were only posted as a cheap shot to sway people's opinions to the negative.

A cheap political move and probably the reason he won't answer the question directly even though it's been asked repeatedly and gut pics have been posted in this very forum. He's seen them, he knows the story, he's just playing dumb because the facts do not back his opinion.


----------



## benny

TeamLorett said:


> The art series will return as well as the power class and Sedona, I have seen them all and the amps look good with excellent SQ. The subs will take a bit of getting used to but I love the Art series subs. Lower wattage with a old school look. A excellent audiophile grade SQ sub with great performance. The PDX amp is a new PPI item and is released. It is not a special item that you have to have some special ties to get one. It is the only amp in the PDX class. Also there is a new line up called the PS/Pro series. I have pics straight form PPI but will only share if the $ is right. LOL


You expect us to pay you to see your photos of some fuggin Power Acoustik amps?! LOLROFL


----------



## roxj01

all this pp measuring is getting old. can somebody just post the freakin pics so the rest of us dont have to sift thru all the meaningless bs in this thread.


----------



## msmith

trust7 said:


> Mr.Smith
> 
> 1. What does a 4" in a 3-way set have to do with anything ? You don't/won't sell me that 4" so who actually gives a crap, what you want me to buy your 6.5 Zr set TWICE and then buy ANOTHER 3 way set to get your 4" ? Skeezy business man.


It has always been JL Audio's practice to offer our higher-end component drivers individually. This allows people to build their own active systems, implement center channels, etc. I'm pretty sure we will do the same with the new C5-400CM that is the midrange driver in the new C5-653 system. I don't appreciate your insult, by the way. It's uncalled for.



> 2. This statement is mostly true, however without the "ability" to show truly great hardware QUALITY wise you can't "compete" with anyone, I dont honestly know why we are having this back and forth, because you know how this business works and so do i. Ferrari builds the 40 or the Enzo not because its meant to compete with the GT40 or the Corvette ROFL to that WRX ROFL I say, they build the car as a showcase of their ability, THEN the mainstream is built with the same principles and lower quality/priced components so everyone can own part of an Enzo, its just called a Testarossa. (actually in car town the F1 cars are the design models and all things drop from there, same point though). In this business the same stands true except more of the build to price WHILE keeping some quality in mind with the ability to compete, is the mentality.
> 
> No offense taken that you don't sell through Best Buy if you did I would very very very likely stop using your products, it would be a good move for the companies bottom line and as RF,KW, Sony and the like have shown a basic compromise of quality at the same time. - As a side note I really myself don't care to entertain opinion on this particular thing, I have been around and inside manufacturing my whole life and in car audio for greater than 25 years also, I have seen it from the beginning to now I know what happens.


I'm sorry... I just don't understand the points you're making here.



> 6. Not True at all actually, Kobe and Onkyo owned the car stereo division of what would become Eclipse from Fujitsu directly long before Fujitsu TEN actually existed, not entirely wrong what you said but Fujitsu Ten DID indeed BUY Eclipse from Fujitsu limited and then make a hard push in to car audio in the early 80's I beleive 83/82 bah can't remember any more lol.
> What I really meant to say here was that I really wish Onkyo and Kobe had stayed solvent or pulled engineering over with them OR as a last resort Fujitsu Ten just simply didnt sell out and destroy Eclipse, but honestly who the fux am I to say because FJT and Eclipse still exist where many have fallen by the way side now so, I guess I just speak of quality too much when less people are worried about that anymore, mainstream wise.


You are mistaken.


----------



## rexroadj

We have already come to the conclusion that he does not write in the english language and no one has a clue what he is saying so I would ignore him! On a side note I wanted to say thank you for chiming in. I think it takes marbles to be from any company and speak in this forum.....As you can see and am sure you deal with everyday, people can have pre-conceived notions, ignorant theory's, and just plain have a hair across there ass for no particular reason....I think it shuns most company reps from this site, and I dont blame them at all for it either. It tends to be a losing and useless battle! Glad you stick it out. I already respected JL as a company but just seeing you around here has bumped it up a notch for me, I think it has done the same for others as well. Not that I am going to go rip all my stuff out and go by all JL because of it or anything but it is refreshing!


----------



## ChrisB

benny said:


> You expect us to pay you to see your photos of some fuggin Power Acoustik amps?! LOLROFL


But, but..... that is the finest NAME brand that Epsilon Electronics has to offer. Notice I said NAME, as in name on a heatsink, name on a dustcap, etc.

ETA: They (Epsilon Electronics) paid for the name, so they may as well hype it! I wouldn't call that a sound investment in this global recession, but hey, it's their money, not mine.


----------



## AAAAAAA

I don't understand why compagnies that made amplifiers that are now so legendary don't simply copy\clone\duplicate or rather make exact copies of those units and let it be the end of it.

One has to wonder


----------



## PPI_GUY

TeamLorett said:


> The art series will return as well as the power class and Sedona, I have seen them all and the amps look good with excellent SQ. The subs will take a bit of getting used to but I love the Art series subs. Lower wattage with a old school look. A excellent audiophile grade SQ sub with great performance. The PDX amp is a new PPI item and is released. It is not a special item that you have to have some special ties to get one. It is the only amp in the PDX class. Also there is a new line up called the PS/Pro series. I have pics straight form PPI but will only share if the $ is right. LOL


Seen the pics/specs too. Grizz Archer sent them out on Wednesday. I don't want to post any pics at this time without knowing it is ok to do so. 
I am not as excited about the new stuff as you seem to be. I was surprised the PDX amp was kept but, I guess I see the need on the spl side. The Sedona series amps look good and you are right about the subs taking a bit of getting used to.
I don't want to influence anyone else's opinions before they see the new lineup. I have some thoughts but, will keep them to myself for now.


----------



## rexroadj

AAAAAAA said:


> I don't understand why compagnies that made amplifiers that are now so legendary don't simply copy\clone\duplicate or rather make exact copies of those units and let it be the end of it.
> 
> One has to wonder


I think that is pretty simple..... In a lot of cases the old amps are not really better then whats out now....I know people hate to think that way or hear someone say that, but its true. Take nostalgia out of it and your left with amps that are better on your electronic systems, more features (whether you need them or not) in most cases more power.... Plus lets look at what those components used cost now? Also its just not the market now a days...if it were then you would probably see more of the old style sq products.....were only roughly 1% like it or not!


----------



## rexroadj

I was also lucky enough to have just gotten a sneak peak..... I was less then excited....The pdx look pretty good, and the pdx comps "look awesome" (cosmetically) I also like the concept of the "art collection" (its not art series anymore...see they did change stuff!) sq sub.. I suppose like anything else time will tell....Also the pdx subs are pretty insane looking (cosmetically) very very different... If the products can be found cheap enough I will give it a shot just to give a fair evaluation...But the art collection amps look (cosmetically) terrible......what a waste! They put out some processors, caps and "pro audio" crap that I just dont understand.... do they sell a lot of that type of stuff? I know they have those lines with soundstream but cant imagine they produce any $ but I dont know.....maybe its an spl thing. I would have liked to see them get rid of all those things and put the $ into everything else.. Also the art components look to be a variable of the last diy boner a/d/s seperates..... It appears as though all the funds and time went into the pdx stuff..... Just my 2cents..


----------



## ChrisB

Believe it or not, the big box stores and local custom shops hype those "accessories" and make a killing off of them. I posted in another thread where this poor kid contacted me just prior to believing the jokers at the custom shop for 2000 watts RMS in his Civic. They sold him a 5 farad capacitor and said that he would not need to upgrade his 80 - 90 amp alternator to handle the 2000 watt rms system because the majority of it was Class D. He then went on to explain why I was wrong in saying that he would be better off with a HO alternator and more batteries quoting the marketing garbage spewed by the sales associate at the custom shop. You know, the 5 farad cap discharges quicker than a battery and recharges faster, blah, blah, blah... About 3 or 4 alternators later, he contacted me and asked me what to do.:laugh:

Ok, I went off on a tangent there, but I did want to point out the hype and BS related to caps and other accessories spread by the shops. I am thinking the profit margin is better because they sure do push a bunch of crap that no one needs in addition to the equipment they sell.


----------



## rexroadj

Well I know there is a large market for that....good or bad. When I said market for the items I meant the pro audio crap. I do wish they did not go into the caps/processing(obviously I use this loosely) when they have it with soundstream. That $ would have gone a long way into the amps and components rather then the caps/etc......


----------



## jel847

still no pics????


----------



## rexroadj

also after looking at the brochure a little more.......The art collection has two different subs....one looks like a rockford p1 (crappier) the art collection sq look old school paper cone with a copper dust cap. Personally I love the look and I know they will have some people that hate this....but for now it looks like a 12 and 8 are your options...I dont now why but those are the only two sizes I ever use and like.... No reason for it, just how I work I guess. They are low power handling but I like the idea.....no real specs otherwise so who knows.....I love the look of the pcx 3ways....lots of copper......Again not a lot of #s and I usually dont care about #s anyway.... I listen first. The tweet looks just like the new focal kevelar tweets! The same xover comes with the two way and three way. You flip a switch and you have your own 3way setup even if you only bought the two way. The xover might suck, who knows... but its a nice thought... I also wanted to mention that they are offering a good amount of 5-6channel amps too. None that I would want but they are a good offering (in theory) I still have a hard time getting over what a poor job they did designing the art (cosmetically) the #s on the pcx seem similar to the soundstream ref. but not all the #s are the exact. I am not sure what to make of this... I was sworn not to post the brochure yet, but I was not giving any rules as to posting comments! I am overall suprised by the sub selection (a lot of subs, some might be good some bad, who knows) I am suprised by the concept behind the 3way pcx's No clue how they will be but they look really unique. I am dissapointed with the art collection amps (cosmetically) there is not enough info. to base any real opinion on anything. I would like to get my hands on some of this stuff to try it out....


----------



## trust7

It actually matters not, I called JL 4 different times in front of people and spoke to different people was told 3 different stories and when confronted all 4 people either a. lied b. were mis-informed or c. did not care of which any choice here is not what should be occuring when trying to do business. ESPECIALLY when whats going on is your direct retail outlets are where the call is coming from.

The Enzo Corvette, JL vs other people argument is simply irrelevant because you actually think a million dollar car is in competition with a 50k car and its simply not the case.

You and the rest of the people on YouTube thinking video taping a Corvette wooping a Enzo ferrari or the like are delusional, they arent in the same universe.

If you want me to expound on this I will, but I didnt want to say so many words this time because you guys keep saying reading too much is taxing your brains.


----------



## trust7

msmith said:


> It has always been JL Audio's practice to offer our higher-end component drivers individually. This allows people to build their own active systems, implement center channels, etc. I'm pretty sure we will do the same with the new C5-400CM that is the midrange driver in the new C5-653 system. I don't appreciate your insult, by the way. It's uncalled for.
> 
> I'm sorry... I just don't understand the points you're making here.
> 
> You are mistaken.


A. yes I do understand that everyone in the UNIVERSE is telling me something that I myself speaking to FOUR different people at JL got directly told NO about. At this point you directly via me saying the action is skeezy are calling me a liar. If you want dates and times and persons spoken to I would be happy to provide them, period. I was told NO, as a matter of fact as little as 3 weeks ago I called and confronted one of the persons I spoke with before that when told FLAT-OUT that there was no 4" that you ARE making a 3-way set WITH a 4" driver and what do I do if I buy that set and blow a 4". Answer - sorry about your luck, PERIOD. No bs, I can actually give you the name of a manager AND owner who listened to this conversation who are affiliated WITH you as direct retailers in this city bro.

B. The point was Ferrari and Chevy are simply not competitors in the ways that matter to the people that buy the products period. From this vantage point JL amps and Zed hand built amps are not exactly competitors either, if you guys are DIRECT competitors with Zed then I guess it means you sell about 115 amps a year or so ? Not. The money dynamic although not everything is relevant.

C. Ok I'm wrong I'm just having a dream of something strange from when I didnt work there.


----------



## trust7

AAAAAAA said:


> I don't understand why compagnies that made amplifiers that are now so legendary don't simply copy\clone\duplicate or rather make exact copies of those units and let it be the end of it.
> 
> One has to wonder


Money. Making those amps is VERY expensive, even more so now, the PC4100/PC2350 amps of yesteryear retailed over 1000.00 each, way over actually, simply can't be sold that way any longer.

Plus efficiency in power has gone up etc etc.


----------



## trust7

As a side note, I mostly started talking with you guys to see if you WRX would continue to argue so long that you reversed your self in your points. This is something that people do alot in forums, congratulations.

But honestly I REALLY started talking actually and literally only so I could hit 50 posts so I could buy things in the classifieds because I love buying good old equipment and so forth.

Also why is the new PPI info not readily available if 4-5 people in just this thread already have the info, whats the holdup ?


----------



## jel847

trust7 said:


> Also why is the new PPI info not readily available if 4-5 people in just this thread already have the info, whats the holdup ?



because we were asked not to distribute it


----------



## rexroadj

Trust7- Do us all a favor and go back and get an education beyond 5th grade! NO ONE UNDERSTANDS YOUR POSTS. What they can understand is so false its insane....if you wish to continue the talk about the ferrari and corvette then google it or go pick up one of several car magazines that have done head to head tests...... You chose a poor example of what ever point your attempting to make! Furthermore your posts have 0 to do with the topic at hand. In the words taken from the classic "billy madison" "we are all dumber for having heard that, and may god have mercy on your soul"
Am I the only one that cant figure out one sentence this guy is saying??????


----------



## JAX

man has this gone overboard....


----------



## benny

I call for ban.


----------



## WRX/Z28

W8 a minute said:


> I guess WRX/Z28 is never going to answer my question so I'll post it the answer.
> 
> The answer is this:
> The Refererence series does NOT share a board with any Kole amplifiers. Therefore we have no reason to suspect the new ART series will either. WRX/Z28's comments were only posted as a cheap shot to sway people's opinions to the negative.
> 
> A cheap political move and probably the reason he won't answer the question directly even though it's been asked repeatedly and gut pics have been posted in this very forum. He's seen them, he knows the story, he's just playing dumb because the facts do not back his opinion.


Wow congratulations. You corrected me on something I never said, after putting words in my mouth. Good job there little buddy! 

JUST TO MAKE THIS PERFECTLY CLEAR! I NEVER STATED THAT SOUNDSTREAM REF AMPS USE POWER ACOUSTIK BOARDS. I SIMPLY POINTED OUT A POST WHERE PREVIOUS SOUNDSTREAM AMPS DID. I'd be silly to think that since the soundstream uses SMT's. At the end of the day, both amps are made by the same company anyway, so what difference does it make? 

Since when am I political? 

Hopefully that helps get it through your thick skull W8. 





trust7 said:


> It actually matters not, I called JL 4 different times in front of people and spoke to different people was told 3 different stories and when confronted all 4 people either a. lied b. were mis-informed or c. did not care of which any choice here is not what should be occuring when trying to do business. ESPECIALLY when whats going on is your direct retail outlets are where the call is coming from.
> 
> The Enzo Corvette, JL vs other people argument is simply irrelevant because you actually think a million dollar car is in competition with a 50k car and its simply not the case.
> 
> You and the rest of the people on YouTube thinking video taping a Corvette wooping a Enzo ferrari or the like are delusional, they arent in the same universe.
> 
> If you want me to expound on this I will, but I didnt want to say so many words this time because you guys keep saying reading too much is taxing your brains.


Why would they refuse to sell you replacement drivers? I really just don't follow this part. I could swear that way back when they had the XR 3way set, I saw the 4" available as a seperate sku. 

If you have the set, and a 4" blows, why not just send it in for warranty replacement? (in response to your later post.) 

Your mistake here is that not only is the ZR1 a $100k+ car, but the cost of the vehicle does not determine it's competition. Unless you're the person who believes that anything that costs more must automatically be better. :laugh:

Would you tell coke that it's not in competition with store branded cola?

Unless you are stating that the corvette isn't a performance competitor for the ferrari? I mean come on, it 1/4 mile'd better than the 599 (w/ enzo motor), braked better, handled better. The only thing's the 599 did better was 0-60 (tires would fix that problem), and 200mph+. 

Even the prestigious motor trend is comparing the two. 2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 vs. 2008 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano - Comparison - Motor Trend

MY MAIN POINT, so you don't lose it. Win or Lose, like it or not, they are competitors to each other. Your obvious snobbish notion that the name Ferrari is superior because of the name alone is silly. 




FWIW: Your sentence structure is generally poor, and it makes reading your posts painfully difficult. This one is actually one of your better posts so far, and it's still terrible.


----------



## WRX/Z28

trust7 said:


> As a side note, I mostly started talking with you guys to see if you WRX would continue to argue so long that you reversed your self in your points. This is something that people do alot in forums, congratulations.


You're not making any sense. Your points are flawed. End of story. 



trust7 said:


> But honestly I REALLY started talking actually and literally only so I could hit 50 posts so I could buy things in the classifieds because I love buying good old equipment and so forth.


Excellent. After seeing this thread, i'm sure everyone will be lined up ready to deal with you. 



trust7 said:


> Also why is the new PPI info not readily available if 4-5 people in just this thread already have the info, whats the holdup ?


The only thing you've ever said that I agree with.


----------



## WRX/Z28

BTW, This was TRUST7's post prior to editing. 



trust7 said:


> First off all ass face its no flawed ASSUMPTION, if you actually take the time to read what people say instead of assuming YOU Know what the **** is going on all the time automatically which you do NOT, the very very very first ****ing thing I said was that I called them and spoke about this directly. The answer to YOUR flawed assumption is that no indeed YOU ARE WRONG, they will not and DO NOT sell the 4" driver by itself, have no intention of doing so AFTER the set is out so forth and so on, that exactly WAS what I spoke to 4 different people at JL about. And if Manville changes what was told to me by many different people great I get what I want, lovely that does nothing to change the fact that I should not have to be on a forums and get a hook-up to get a product JL does indeed manufacture or will be very soon.
> 
> Secondly, no matter what you think the ZR-1 or any corvette short of the Calloway corvettes and barely even then competes with a MILLION dollar Ferrari, you have lost your mind dude. I have this ENTIRE time stated only that competition based in quality which by the way doesnt, no matter how hard you try with your jl nuthugging philosophies, mean that the Zr1 competes with the Enzo Ferrari. I go to Barrett, I race myself and if someone passes John Carmack on a track while he is driving his Enzo it always ends the same way, some douchebag in a zr1 with 50k extra in it comes up to John with his 4.5million dollar ALL carbon f1 inspired enzo and says I wooped you man, John laughs and says my car is worth more than your life, end of conversation. This means nothing in all sense of the word, it does not make John a good person it doesnt make that other guy a bad person, it does however mean that EVERY person that owns an Enzo Ferrari no matter how "solid" the car is reliability wise or how many times a broke ******* beats them in a race in a Corvette, they still see no competition and from a hand made, carbon fiber, status symbol standpoint they are not, no matter what ******** you spray out about it, simply put. You even with your propensity to argue for no reason should at least concede the fact that any car can beat any car, my Rx-7 the 90 makes 487.9 RWHP and weighs 2500 pounds does the 1/4 in 10second times but I have 20k in it, would I say it competes with a Enzo, **** no man, give me a break will you, act like you have some sense of what people think for 5 seconds. Who cares what you or I think, do you have one ? I dont, but I know 5 people that do and trust me, Enzo ferraris were INVITE ONLY you couldnt even buy one if you owned 900 Corvettes if you wanted to. You owned a F40 or F50 and then IF, IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF Ferrari thought you turned your lease 40/50 back in good enough shape you were MAYBE given a invite to buy a million dollar car by giving them a 250k deposit, I was also here during this whole process. No Ferrari mostly does NOT compete with Corvette for the same customers, the same money OR honestly for the same titles, oh wait,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> I forgot about the F1 corvette racing team sorry my mistake. No cosworth is the only US "company" that even competes against these teams/cars and its not even a US company really.
> 
> Point is 1,000,000.000 vs 100,000.00 not in the same league and if you tell me some **** about 3.3 second 0-60 versus a 3.1 0-60 I will just show you the 6 billion idiots standing here saying they would rather have the obvious Enzo than the Zr-1 and then we aren't having a practical conversation, because they aren't in competition with each other, at least not in the minds of the people that matter. As a side note Johns car was in the shop constantly, had nothing to do with how much he loved/loves that car.
> 
> I dont need Fujitsu Ten's web history, I was there I know exactly what happened.
> 
> Thd, S/N, Damping, Price all are just things used to make an educated guess about what could or could not be and I think Manville's answer speaks for itself really, no example he gave was 20.00 they are both over 500.00, yes you may not agree but money ALWAYS, when using other information with it, has something to do with quality. Does it mean you can go 500.00 must be awesome without reading or understanding jack else, no obviously not.
> 
> Listen the point of the whole conversation is this, there are valid competitors in most things for most people, do the 10,000 videos of Corvettes racing Ferrari's and winning most of the time I will say, mean anything ? no, because the guy with the Ferrari already won.
> 
> Does JL have competitors in the Low and Mid level lines of their stuff yes why yes they do and they compete very well in my mind. The C2 and C5 speakers sound very nice for the money compared to even other speakers of supposed better quality. But does JL have a good MAINSTREAM valid CURRENTLY PRODUCING MANUFACTURER competitor in amplifier land, no not really, Zed - hand built small runs, good quality no doubt, more like a Ferrari IMO, JL good quality not so small, big manufacturer, more like a Corvette.
> 
> You can talk and talk all day but Zed and JL aren't REALLY competing for the same guys at the same moment, not exactly.
> ***************


Nearly impossible to read, but figured it was worth showing.


----------



## rexroadj

I dont know why its not public yet either....I swore not to pass it along, so I am honoring that. I was not told anything about not describing it though! Maybe its just a prototype brochure? I really dont know, I didnt speak with anyone within the company directly so anything I say about that would be mere speculation, and I dont think any more speculation needs to be passed around! Overall I am just not impressed with cosmetics and lack of info about the stuff. Some of the components and subs look cool to me, but thats pretty much where it all ends for me. All in all I am not a #s guy, I wont base a decision based soley on #s that is! I also try not to judge a book by its cover, but I was very dissapointed with the effort put into the cosmetics of the art collection. 

WRX- Thanks for posting the link to the mag. That is exactly what I was refering to! I just like people to do some research now and then. You saved him from that. He will get his 50 posts now that he started a new thread asking if people have heard the new zed amp in person!!!! I think we should all go over and post that its not as good as all the jl offerings (whether they are or not, we dont need to really start that conversation  I need sleep and to stop coming to this forum!!!!


----------



## rexroadj

WOW what language! I get little warnings all the time for my actions (no argument from me, I get carried away) But this guy is brand new and starting like this!!!! I think he should get some warnings or worse tossed his way asap! Of course that means they will read this, and I will get a few more I'm sure


----------



## W8 a minute

WRX/Z28 said:


> I SIMPLY POINTED OUT A POST WHERE PREVIOUS SOUNDSTREAM AMPS DID.


But why? This might be the first time you used the word previous. Your other statements were purposely worded to sound as if SS amps still share the same boards. When we all know they no longer do. Explain why your comment was even relevant to the thread? 



WRX/Z28 said:


> At the end of the day, both amps are made by the same company anyway, so what difference does it make?


Again, so was the Chevette and the Corvette. I'll give you credit for trying though. Hopefully most Diyma readers are smart enough to see the negative spin you keep trying to disguise as "facts" and make their up their own minds. Again, another reason NOT to deal with a local retailer.


----------



## OSN

benny said:


> I call for ban.


x2

Sure is getting deep in here....


----------



## evo9

rexroadj said:


> Trust7- Do us all a favor and go back and get an education beyond 5th grade! NO ONE UNDERSTANDS YOUR POSTS. What they can understand is so false its insane....if you wish to continue the talk about the ferrari and corvette then google it or go pick up one of several car magazines that have done head to head tests...... You chose a poor example of what ever point your attempting to make! Furthermore your posts have 0 to do with the topic at hand. In the words taken from the classic "billy madison" "we are all dumber for having heard that, and may god have mercy on your soul"
> Am I the only one that cant figure out one sentence this guy is saying??????



This should tell you all >>>>> 12V Company: Best Buy 



.


----------



## jonnyanalog

what blows me away is that this thread is 12 pages long! talking about beating a dead horse over and over! sheesh.


----------



## msmith

trust7 said:


> A. yes I do understand that everyone in the UNIVERSE is telling me something that I myself speaking to FOUR different people at JL got directly told NO about. At this point you directly via me saying the action is skeezy are calling me a liar. If you want dates and times and persons spoken to I would be happy to provide them, period. I was told NO, as a matter of fact as little as 3 weeks ago I called and confronted one of the persons I spoke with before that when told FLAT-OUT that there was no 4" that you ARE making a 3-way set WITH a 4" driver and what do I do if I buy that set and blow a 4". Answer - sorry about your luck, PERIOD. No bs, I can actually give you the name of a manager AND owner who listened to this conversation who are affiliated WITH you as direct retailers in this city bro.


I did not call you a liar.

We don't currently offer a 4-inch for sale. The XR400-CM has been discontinued for over a year and a half and we have no more. Therefore, there is no way we can sell you one at this time and the Customer Service / Technical Staff has no ability to help you beyond what is presently available, nor do they necessarily have knowledge of anything that is not yet available. Once the C5 3-way enters production and we have filled orders, we will create a SKU for the individual midrange as we have done in the past.

Go ahead and give me the names of all the people involved. I will be happy to inquire as to what was discussed with the dealer.

Please do so via e-mail to: my screen name @jlaudio.com


----------



## chad

trust7 said:


> But honestly I REALLY started talking actually and literally only so I could hit 50 posts so I could buy things in the classifieds because I love buying good old equipment and so forth.


You can buy all day long, you just can't start a thread..... You got something to sell? Earn the respect to be a seller, FWIW you ain't doing so hot as of now.


----------



## PPI_GUY

All the other bickering aside, I will tell you all that a few of us have seen the new PPI stuff and it was sent out in a PDF. I promised Grizz Archer that I would not post any pics or details that would reveal makeup of the new lines. Some of you may have issue with Mr. Archer but, I do not. I did give my word and that's about the most valuable thing I own. So, until I hear otherwise I can't post the pics. 
I suspect we will see the info very soon on the PPI website as it is referenced in the info I have seen.
I really don't want to comment too specifically on what I have seen. I would rather everyone wait and give their own impressions. I do think the subs will be an acquired taste and as has been mentioned, the Art amps "look" leaves alot to be desired. And, keep in mind that I am not a huge fan of the "look" of old school Art amps. Specs are a bit sketchy so, it is hard to make a complete judgement by simply reading those. I would like to know the method used to get the S/N numbers posted in the info I have seen.
Finally, I have no idea what the holdup is on posting the new pics/specs, etc on the PPI website. Perhaps everything isn't 100% finalized yet? If so, that is another reason not to post it here.


----------



## JayBee

W8 a minute said:


> But why? This might be the first time you used the word previous. Your other statements were purposely worded to sound as if SS amps still share the same boards. When we all know they no longer do. Explain why your comment was even relevant to the thread?


Seriously..post #246. He linked to a post that showed that they had used the same board in an amp. 

had = past tense...so "previously" is implied. 

an/A = the A was in red to emphasize that it was only one. 

Let's move on.


----------



## JayBee

PPI_GUY said:


> All the other bickering aside, I will tell you all that a few of us have seen the new PPI stuff and it was sent out in a PDF. I promised Grizz Archer that I would not post any pics or details that would reveal makeup of the new lines. Some of you may have issue with Mr. Archer but, I do not. I did give my word and that's about the most valuable thing I own. So, until I hear otherwise I can't post the pics.
> I suspect we will see the info very soon on the PPI website as it is referenced in the info I have seen.
> I really don't want to comment too specifically on what I have seen. I would rather everyone wait and give their own impressions. I do think the subs will be an acquired taste and as has been mentioned, the Art amps "look" leaves alot to be desired. And, keep in mind that I am not a huge fan of the "look" of old school Art amps. Specs are a bit sketchy so, it is hard to make a complete judgement by simply reading those. I would like to know the method used to get the S/N numbers posted in the info I have seen.
> Finally, I have no idea what the holdup is on posting the new pics/specs, etc on the PPI website. Perhaps everything isn't 100% finalized yet? If so, that is another reason not to post it here.


While i won't really be in the market, i am interested in seeing the new stuff. Some of it sounds kinda unique.


----------



## lucas569




----------



## sniper5431

I just took a look at one of the nostalgic PPI Art series amps an AX 400 in person tonight. what a beautiful amp from the outside. I almost bought the thing on looks alone. Was a greyish black in color. The Pc2100 did not look bad as well.


----------



## trust7

chad said:


> You can buy all day long, you just can't start a thread..... You got something to sell? Earn the respect to be a seller, FWIW you ain't doing so hot as of now.


Sorry, incorrect. I have no intention of selling, just mainly buying, although you can not post even a simple reply asking to purchase in the classified forum, unless you have 50 posts. Many people do not read PM's automatically as I have found also.

As far as language and all things forum related etc, as I have said before, I have engaged this conversation mostly for entertainment. If cuss words are taboo on this forum tell me and I will henceforth refrain.

I knew that engaging WRX would net exactly what it has because he has replied to each and every person in the same aggressive, ridiculous manner.
I have had a little fun and made some posts, really no harm no foul. I said many times that nothing said was intended to offend and made specific points to say I was directly joking.

Relax everyone, sheesus.


----------



## rexroadj

trust7 said:


> Sorry, incorrect. I have no intention of selling, just mainly buying, although you can not post even a simple reply asking to purchase in the classified forum, unless you have 50 posts. Many people do not read PM's automatically as I have found also.
> 
> As far as language and all things forum related etc, as I have said before, I have engaged this conversation mostly for entertainment. If cuss words are taboo on this forum tell me and I will henceforth refrain.
> 
> I knew that engaging WRX would net exactly what it has because he has replied to each and every person in the same aggressive, ridiculous manner.
> I have had a little fun and made some posts, really no harm no foul. I said many times that nothing said was intended to offend and made specific points to say I was directly joking.
> 
> Relax everyone, sheesus.


Here is what you need to realize before you continue any further on this site! This forum is meant to be a learning tool for people. Purposely starting crap with people on here for your own enjoyment is not appreciated, welcomed, or accepted! You have not had a good start on here. Cuss words are not what we are talking about (although trust me.....you will get warnings for them!) We are saying your writing makes 0 sense. Its not spelling, or profanity. Its the fact you just jumble a bunch of words together without any point. Seriously, print out some of your posts and read them out loud to yourself slowly and you tell me if it makes any sense. I am not trying to personally attack you (right now, anyway) If you want to post here and try and make your points, make them so people know what your saying. 

As you have read on here WRX and I have gone back and forth about a lot of things and its gotten heated (sorry for the nut/mother thing wrx, it was un-called for no matter how pissed I was). We all have a right to our opinions and we dont have to like each others, but at the end of the day you have to respect them. However you chose to argue about some things that were not opinion but instead were facts you were on the wrong side of. When people present to you facts about something that you thought the opposite of, you eat your humble pie and move on, we all do. 

If you really want to stick around here and be productive then spend a little more time thinking about what you have to say before you become a keyboard hero, make sure its valid, and make sure people can understand it. 

If you dont really care then just keep doing what your doing and you will be out of here in no time. Thats up to you.


----------



## WRX/Z28

trust7 said:


> I knew that engaging WRX would net exactly what it has because he has replied to each and every person in the same aggressive, ridiculous manner.


So posting fallacies was simply a way to "engage me"?  :laugh:

Anyone else (other than W8) think that i've responded to them in an "agressive, ridiculous manner"? 

My apologies for my involvement in the :dead_horse:

and turning into this guy:


----------



## chad

rexroadj said:


> Cuss words are not what we are talking about (although trust me.....you will get warnings for them!)


I never fukin warned anyone about cussing, ****.


----------



## rexroadj

Everytime I let one rip I get a nice little warning in my pm box!


----------



## chad

rexroadj said:


> Everytime I let one rip I get a nice little warning in my pm box!


that sucks dick


----------



## rexroadj

I would say I agree with you but I'm afraid the nazi's will give me another one, that could be strike three! Its hard to keep track.


----------



## crux131

A warning for the slip of a damned profanity????


Sorry had to.

Now, I would still love to see some pics from the brochures...whenever that might be OK. Just interested in the new interpretation of the Art series( even if it is by epsilon ).


----------



## [email protected]

man that's funny lol


----------



## [email protected]

WRX/Z28 said:


> So posting fallacies was simply a way to "engage me"?  :laugh:
> 
> Anyone else (other than W8) think that i've responded to them in an "agressive, ridiculous manner"?
> 
> My apologies for my involvement in the :dead_horse:
> 
> and turning into this guy:


now that's funny as helll


----------



## emperorjj1

i missed all the fun... but i read somewhere there were proto pics... didnt see em thou


----------



## WRX/Z28

For people that were curious about the originals. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rum/34392-ppi-art-xtant-lovers-check-out.html


----------



## ryan s

trust7 said:


> Guess what I was right and its the only thing I intended to find out, aside from what I also have already said twice, 50 posts so I can reply to people in classifieds.


I'm sure people will be banging down your door to deal with you after this thread


----------



## jel847

trust7 said:


> I merely engaged WRX literally to see if he would take the same New Jersey crap attitude with me directly and instantly after seeing how he spoke to you and W8 and and and.


This line takes the cake, especially coming from a Texan!!!

you have been on this site for a few short weeks. Basically you are a guest here so maybe you should start acting like it!


----------



## 89grand

rexroadj said:


> Everytime I let one rip I get a nice little warning in my pm box!


That's straight up ****ing ********!


----------



## rexroadj

DIY Mobile Audio - View Profile: rexroadj

Click the infractions link!
am I the only one???? WTF...oops!


----------



## 89grand

I think you are the only one that can view your infractions. I don't see a link anywhere about them on your profile.

That's just a ****ing guess though.


----------



## rexroadj

Oh, well take my word, I have two that are still listed on there. One for offensive language and one for insulting someone? I guess its in the rules on here. I guess I was just lucky enough to post in the wrong thread at the wrong time......twice! I actually thought that during this whole cluster F*^$ of a thread that I would have just been exiled? I suppose its never to late!


----------



## JayBee

We're all keeping our fingers crossed


----------



## rexroadj

GFY!


----------



## ChrisB

318 posts and still no photos. This is starting to remind me of the greatest thing that never was.


----------



## ryan s

How about 1,297 posts and no pics :surprised: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor.html


:laugh:


----------



## ChrisB

lol, so the MS-8 is vaporware too?


----------



## ryan s

So far...

It has been promised by Andy W within the past couple days...so we'll see when it finally appears...


----------



## subwoofery

ryan s said:


> How about 1,297 posts and no pics :surprised: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/8257-jbls-ms-8-processor.html
> 
> 
> :laugh:


Please read before making such assumption... There has been a few pics... 
The last pic has been posted by Andy a few days/weeks ago. 

Kelvin


----------



## old_skool_noma

the PPI 2010 brochure is up, i must say i was mostly unimpressed with what i saw.

http://www.precisionpower.com/ppi_brochure.pdf


----------



## bkjay

The amps look good! But speakers look like flea market crap sorry.


----------



## 89grand

Unfortunately, it's pretty much what I expected.

The only thing that didn't look all that bad, was the Power Class amps, and by that I mean their actually physical appearance. Who knows about the quality. I know their damping factor ratings are ridiculously over stated, not that they mean much anyway.

The Art collection, or whatever it's called stuff looks gay as hell, and the majority of the speakers looked ****ty too, although the 3 way set with the 2.5" midrange is a little interesting.


----------



## rugdnit

89grand said:


> Unfortunately, it's pretty much what I expected.
> 
> The only thing that didn't look all that bad, was the Power Class amps, and by that I mean their actually physical appearance. Who knows about the quality. I know their damping factor ratings are ridiculously over stated, not that they mean much anyway.
> 
> The Art collection, or whatever it's called stuff looks gay as hell, and *the majority of the speakers looked ****ty too, although the 3 way set with the 2.5" midrange is a little interesting*.


I was thinking the same thing. overall very disappointing.


----------



## JKashat

Man, they should have made the ART "Collection" look like the Art Series. hopefully, they're great products at least. Maybe the second generation of these will have teh nostalgia look to them...


----------



## old_skool_noma

after seeing the "Art Collection" specs, im glad they didnt go with the nostalgic Art Series design, it would just add insult to injury they the new Arts wont come close to quality of the old ones, theyre even a class d design for crying out loud, the only thing they have in common is the name, and id hate to think that the Art Series name becomes tarnished by these wanna be Arts.

the only thing that intrigued me were the Power Class Components and the PC.12 subwoofer, simply because it will fit behind my seats and handle 800 watts RMS, im not sure how i feel about the aluminum heatsink/dustcap, it almost looks cheap and gaudy i think


----------



## PPI_GUY

Well, I am glad they finally posted the info and pics. I am as big a PPI fan as anyone and was greatly disappointed. They could have gotten away with slightly above average specs as long as they had kept the cosmetics in line with what we have come to expect from PPI. The amps do nothing for me, especially the ART series/collection. Only the Art SQ subs are remotely interesting and the Pro Series separates seem to just be mildly promising.
Honestly, I think the newly released Soundstream Reference amp line has this stuff beat on both specs and appearance.


----------



## trust7

How can it be good when they can't even proof-read the brochure ;(


----------



## jel847

i dont think the amps look that bad,dont know why they call them art collection but they dont look that bad. i like the specs and features on the amps. the subwoofer amps have phase shift built in, wish they would have phase shift on all of the amps.

the speakers do nothing for me.


----------



## benny

No surprise at all, looks like the same Power Acoustik junk.


----------



## WRX/Z28

Read the brochure. Does it not sound like he is specifically addressing all of us forum geeks?


----------



## jonnyanalog

rugdnit said:


> I was thinking the same thing. overall very disappointing.


+1 Everything is VERY underwhelming.


----------



## ChrisB

I love this:

"Precision Power was originally launched with the Sound Quality purist in mind. Now-a-day’s, SPL competitions have dominated the scene and the purest was left out of the equation. The lost art of “Sound Quality Mobile Audio” has been re-incarnated.

The new 2010 line-up will addresses the SQ “audiophile’s” needs as well as the SPL maniac’s and everything in between. With over a quarter of a century of production end engineering experience we are introducing the all new Precision Power!!!"


----------



## 89grand

WRX/Z28 said:


> Read the brochure. Does it not sound like he is specifically addressing all of us forum geeks?


That's exactly what I thought when I read it.


----------



## Bruno Sardine

> ...we included balanced line inputs to be used with our *BLT transmitters* for the ultimate listening experience!


Sounds tasty.


----------



## crux131

The Art collection SQ subs looked decent...the ones with the copper looking dust cap. It had more or less an old school look. Just a simple stamped basket, plain looking gasket, pressed paper cone, and an adequate motor structure.
Nothing great, just really reminded me of the products available when car audio was new to me( early 90's ).

This would have been a sufficient subwoofer line for the art collection IMO. No need for another line with the extra flea market sprinkled on.

The Power Class components looked decent as well.

A nice basic semi nostalgic system might be the SQ series subs, The PC comps, and just use the new Soundstream reference amps, as none of the new PPI looked that hot( Powerclass being the only decent looking line.


----------



## AAAAAAA

They don't post the xover points for their 3 way set... it reminds me of the cadence 3 way set. some differences but pretty close.










The cadence are also 3 ohms. The cadence sets midrange is HP at 2khz I beleive. Not to worth while.


----------



## trust7

This is my favorite:

The Art Series also offers the ability to use our BLT that we started making over 15 years ago to USES balanced line signal for distortion.......


Its a combination of : to use balanced line signal for distortion... and; IT uses balanced line signal for distortion...

lol.


----------



## trust7

What is anyones opinion of the PT.5 horn, thoughts on this ?


----------



## subwoofery

trust7 said:


> What is anyones opinion of the PT.5 horn, thoughts on this ?


4khz to 20khz? I'd rather use the Image Dynamics horns 

But that's just me... 

Kelvin


----------



## subwoofery

jel847 said:


> i dont think the amps look that bad,dont know why they call them art collection but they dont look that bad. i like the specs and features on the amps. the subwoofer amps have phase shift built in, wish they would have phase shift on all of the amps.
> 
> the speakers do nothing for me.


Power Class amp series: the specs are OK 
Art Collection amp series: lowish S/N ratio for an A/B class and retarded low stereo separation specs (even the Power Class have better stereo separation specs). 

Kelvin 

PS: I can see people using the 3way Power Class with their matching HAT L1 PRO SE


----------



## finfinder

Only in America can you "remake" the Art series with worse distortion numbers, worse s/n ratio (than even their class d amps) and worse separation specs and try to call it better with a straight face. Oh yeah, they do have more power and built in crossovers.

Would we even be talking about these if they didn't have the PPI name on them ? 

Marketing 101: sell the sizzle not the steak


----------



## 89grand

finfinder said:


> Would we even be talking about these if they didn't have the PPI name on them ?


No. I mean we don't talk about Power Acoustiks.:laugh:


----------



## MaxPowers

I would rather the new Power or Art series look like the PDX 10k. Its certainly better looking than either of the others. Now if only I had a car with a 16 volt electrical system.


----------



## W8 a minute

Wow. That was weak sauce. I bet the hardest part of building some of those speakers is lining up the PPI sticker to cover the Pyramid logo.

Granted, speakers can look the same but sound amazingly different and we haven't seen the guts of the amplifiers, but I have little hope remaining now.


----------



## NEXT

Junk...........


----------



## Hextall 27

NEXT said:


> Junk...........


What he said. There's so much stupidity in that catalog I'm too pissed off to even comment.


----------



## Lanson

I'll say this, they do justice to the "PDX" letters.


----------



## gitmobass

I am severely disappointed. The only thing I'd even consider purchasing would be the art SQ subs, and only if it didn't have the stupid dust cap. At least there's still some hope for phoenix gold...


----------



## ReloadedSS

Not thrilled -- like what others have said, some of the subs and speakers look pretty good, but the Art series amps are a real disappointment. I guess I was looking for a modern interpretation of the original art series; not the same silkscreen, but something new yet nostalgic?

The new Soundstream Reference are essentially a copy of the old design, and the interpretation is much better than the art series. Frankly, I like Phoenix Gold's new amp line better than this, aesthetically speaking, anyway. I know it all comes down to performance in the end, but still, I was expecting "Art."


----------



## emperorjj1

LOL wow


----------



## NEXT

We should beat the S%%T out of whoever said these would be descent..............


----------



## rexroadj

Well I dont think any one said "they are going to be decent" because without actually using one there is no way to know.... I think we should beat the "S%%T) out of all the people saying everything sucks without actually touching something? We dont even know if these are the final release, if they are going to be released but yet people still continue there ignorant theorys? NO ONE HAS EVER EVEN SEEN ONE OF THESE YET!!! The #s listed mean nothing, there is way to much left out to base an opinion on that (not that you should base everything off that anyway) Comparisons being made on speaker lines vs other is pretty dumb too. So should we also compare the cadence and soundstream mids to dynaudio since they look just like them? It goes both ways! Again, I am not saying these are going to be great, decent or crap because I havent used one yet. But neither has anyone else. I agree I dont like the looks of most of it, but thats a pretty dumb desicion maker as well.


----------



## Lanson

rexroadj said:


> Well I dont think any one said "they are going to be decent" because without actually using one there is no way to know.... I think we should beat the "S%%T) out of all the people saying everything sucks without actually touching something? We dont even know if these are the final release, if they are going to be released but yet people still continue there ignorant theorys? NO ONE HAS EVER EVEN SEEN ONE OF THESE YET!!! The #s listed mean nothing, there is way to much left out to base an opinion on that (not that you should base everything off that anyway) Comparisons being made on speaker lines vs other is pretty dumb too. So should we also compare the cadence and soundstream mids to dynaudio since they look just like them? It goes both ways! Again, I am not saying these are going to be great, decent or crap because I havent used one yet. But neither has anyone else. I agree I dont like the looks of most of it, but thats a pretty dumb desicion maker as well.



Just going by the awesomeness Power Acoustik has produced thus far, bro. But we'll see, eh?


----------



## rexroadj

again.....ignorant thinking! Have you used the new soundstream ref amps????probably not! They are nothing like power acoustic! Again I'm not saying they are gonna be great or awful, just that the ingorant thought process of some of the people on here is sickning!


----------



## benny

rex, buddy, get off of Grizz's nuts. The stuff looks a step sideways from Audiobahn.


----------



## 89grand

Right or wrong, I am judging this completely off the appearance and the fact that's it's Power Acoustiks. With that said, none of that stuff will ever be in my car.


----------



## Notloudenuf

89grand said:


> Right or wrong, I am judging this completely off the appearance and the fact that's it's Power Acoustiks. With that said, none of that stuff will ever be in my car.


I like it. If I didn't have a '98 model PPI amp that worked great I would definitely consider these. :worried:


----------



## rexroadj

"rex, buddy, get off of Grizz's nuts. The stuff looks a step sideways from Audiobahn"
So what? Who cares how it looks? I agree its not my cup of tea cosmetically but I am not going to judge it based on that. Some of you just dont want it to succeed because of what company is affiliated or what they chose to call the lines.....Thats just plain stupid. A good amp is a good amp and a bad amp is a bad amp but its not made or broken on a company name, or a catalog of products that might not even be a final production....
How am I on grizz's nuts? But way to recycle previously outlandish comments, with 0 wieght behind it! The only contact I have ever had with the man was to order blt's from him and to find out about the review that was going into pas mag..... I dont care about the product. I just think the attitude and lack of thought process is something that can hurt the overall point of this forum. I could care less what company it involves..... Its just plain ignorant. I am just suprised by the reactions of something no one has ever seen, touched, or more importantly heard! You guys can call it what you want!
Its just pathetic thats all! I dont really care, I am done trying to get people to not judge something they cant possibly know anything about. What ever helps you sleep at night..... I am done with all this crap


----------



## Salad Fingers

"Intriguing from the first look, the new PC subwoofers have even more to tell than what meets the naked eye... The wild looking dustcap is not just *four* visual pleasure, but also acts as a heatsink to extract heat from the coil gap."

Rule of Life: Never trust what cannot be spelled.


----------



## 89grand

"Visual pleasure"..LMAO! The dust cap looks retarded and makes the sub look like swap meet ****. Even if it was good, it doesn't look like it. Stupid added bling is just to attract morons to the product like flies to ****.


----------



## JJDH

89grand said:


> "Visual pleasure"..LMAO! The dust cap looks retarded and makes the sub look like swap meet ****. Even if it was good, it doesn't look like it. Stupid added bling is just to attract morons to the product like flies to ****.


So how do you really feel???:rifle:lol


----------



## Luke352

Do you think somewhere in that company there was this kind od conversation going on

Guy 1 "come on man if we release this subwoofer with the red dustcap thing we are going to get smashed"

Guy 2 "Nah man, it looks awesome and everyone is going to love it seriously, you just don't have an eye for this sort of thing"

Guy 1 "Well when we get smashed over the looks i'll make sure I say I told you so" 


Whack some chrome instead of red anodizing on that dustcap and you've got yourself some hub centre's for your classic car.


----------



## ChrisB

I think the conversation went more like this: "Just think of all the kiddies who buy Import Tuner and PAS Magazine. They will eat these products up because they look so badass! Let's learn from the mistakes of DEI and Audiobahn!"


----------



## ReloadedSS

ChrisB said:


> I think the conversation went more like this: "Just think of all the kiddies who buy Import Tuner and PAS Magazine. They will eat these products up because they look so badass! Let's learn from the mistakes of DEI and Audiobahn!"


To be fair though, other than PAS mag, what publications still exist for mobile audio? I subscribe because it's all that's left, and I'm an adult...well, physically anyway. :laugh: PAS has maybe a handful of reviews and an article, and that's all there is for newsstand presence. I guess it's been a long fall...I remember when there were five or six titles out at the same time.

Not defending the magazines or the PPI amps, but it's a pretty empty market for physical media in the car audio space. Unless I'm missing something...?


----------



## coffee_junkee

It's sad how PPI gets kicked into submission with each new buyout.. I was so excited too. The "Art Collection" is a mess cosmetically. They just look cheap from the outside. Maybe the sound quality is there, but anyone with a top-notch classy installation will pass on them just because of the way they look. Also, what's up with "Art Collection", what the hell happened to "Art Series"? And while I'm ranting, whats up with the "professional" horn piezos? Really, bullet piezo tweeters?

Two lines were all they needed. A sweet top end amp and speaker line followed by the budget "audiophile" line. That's it.

The PowerClass is a good start, but the cosmetics are warmed over DEI style. 

If Epsilon were to get any of my cash it will be in the form of the SS Ref. That hit the nail on the head.


----------



## trust7

When are these going to be available ?


----------



## wdemetrius1

Great Question.


----------



## jel847

i am color blind so maype im missing something but dont the power class amps look pretty much like the last amps ppi offered before dei?
pcx maybe?
as for the art collection, its hard to tell from the crappy pictures but i didnt think they looked that terrible.
i agree i have no idea why they used the "art collection" as the name of that amp but i dont think it looks that bad.


----------



## ChrisB

jel847 said:


> i am color blind so maype im missing something but dont the power class amps look pretty much like the last amps ppi offered before dei?
> pcx maybe?
> as for the art collection, its hard to tell from the crappy pictures but i didnt think they looked that terrible.
> i agree i have no idea why they used the "art collection" as the name of that amp but i dont think it looks that bad.


The Power Class also looks like the first generation that DEI sold post buyout too!  IIRC, they were also known as "speed bumps".:laugh:


----------



## audiogodz1

The DS series subs are 1st gen Stroker knock-offs.


----------



## trust7

Anyone know any dealers that will be carrying them ?


----------



## audiogodz1

Walmart, by the looks of them. 

See this is why it outta be a law...... proven old school respected brands must be retired, not resold.


----------



## ebrahim

From experience the DEI amps whether Orion or any other sucks. I have the Orion West Coast Customs amp and I will tell you it has a crossover but no gain control. When they built it they internally set the gain 100%. Dumb a#@ and now that amp clips like crazy every time. Well that amp cost me $100 so now it is going as soon as I get a replacement like a Zapco or Arc Audio amp. As for the new PPI amps if I was you stay away from them because they are going to be like Power Acoustic.



rexroadj said:


> I think crap is based on $, vs. expectations vs. needs. I would say they are a budget friendly company. Plenty of frills and marketing, would I ever own one...........
> NO! I will also add (of course anything said by me is strictly my opinion) people tend to have a sort of foolish theory when one company buys another (lets use dei buying ppi for example) they think all there products are suddenly crap! That is absurd..... Why would a company buy another companys great name/reputation.......So they can run it to the ground and make 0 money on it? No they are buying the technology.... They might make some things a little more market friendly (to make $ duh......) and to make a product fit the mass market better. (the reason why the company was originaly going under) I am not saying that some companys have not done some foolish things after buying a reputable company, but I can promise you the intent is not to put it down the ****ter.....thats not smart business and they do things for a reason....$$$$. Just think about this example for a moment...... The ppi 356 components that people are all of a suddent going crazy over..... They went un noticed so long because people saw DEI...PPI and said oh they ruined it, it has to be crap instead of actually giving them a shot. A few years later, and a few hundred dollars less on **** bay and now they are the greatest thing since sliced bread..... Why did I just rant like this..... NO CLUE....Sorry... Well I guess I am saying that just because the same company makes power acoustic does not mean that new PPI is going to be the same quality as power acoustic.... That would not do anything to help them out at all....
> 
> I hope the person that attached the ebay link is not using that as proof that there is a new art series...... WHERE IS THE WEBSITE...... where are other items....


----------



## Audiolife

Mehh the M, AM and Promos series are what caused the boom for PPI not the Art series. I think I actually liked the powerclass amps better than the art series. As far as the new stuff who knows, some of it looks ok but then again how can you tell how it sounds in a picture?


----------



## WRX/Z28

Audiolife said:


> Mehh the M, AM and Promos series are what caused the boom for PPI not the Art series. I think I actually liked the powerclass amps better than the art series. As far as the new stuff who knows, some of it looks ok but then again how can you tell how it sounds in a picture?


Surely you can't be serious. Acording to recent info, the AM was the fixing of the M series. The art's were a million times more popular from what I could tell. The powerclass amps were still great amps, but even they never seemed to catch on like the art's did. 

Theres a reason why the art's still have a cult like following. The PC series, and M,AM, Promos doesn't have that...


----------



## Audiolife

WRX/Z28 said:


> Surely you can't be serious. Acording to recent info, the AM was the fixing of the M series. The art's were a million times more popular from what I could tell. The powerclass amps were still great amps, but even they never seemed to catch on like the art's did.
> 
> Theres a reason why the art's still have a cult like following. The PC series, and M,AM, Promos doesn't have that...


Having owned the M AM and Promos when they were new and then working in retail/installing when the art series was out I can AND WILL stick by what I said. 80% of their IASCA world championships were won by the lines I listed. Back when the combonation of choice was MB Quart speakers, JL subs and those very lines of PPI amps.


----------



## benny

I remember the popular combo being Quart, AudioControl, JL, and PPI _Arts_.


----------



## Audiolife

Old School SPL Competition Vehicles Tommy Clark Rocket Science van, Lucio Proni, Manville Smith, Jeff Pitman and a whole bunch more flat out dominated the early 90's in IASCA They were the Speaker Warehouse crew (later became JL audio) then you had the other team From PJ's Autosound that flat out dominated and at least a few of those cars ran PPI amps all pre ART all won at least 1 title most won multiple.


----------



## WRX/Z28

benny said:


> I remember the popular combo being Quart, AudioControl, JL, and PPI _Arts_.


This is the way I remember it too. I was around for the end of the AM and all of the ART/PC series. I don't remember any of PPI's amps ever being as popular as the arts. That's not to say they weren't as good, or solid, just never had the sales numbers.


----------



## Audiolife

When the Art series came out the new flavor of the week went to Sounstream/PG and then MTX rolled Team Thunder Force. I would always sell more Kicker amps than I did PPI, infact that is what pushed ppi out of our shop.


----------



## WRX/Z28

Audiolife said:


> When the Art series came out the new flavor of the week went to Sounstream/PG and then MTX rolled Team Thunder Force. I would always sell more Kicker amps than I did PPI, infact that is what pushed ppi out of our shop.


Weird. Everyone else had the opposite reaction. In the mid '90's, you couldn't throw a rock without hitting a car that had a Art series amp in it. :laugh:

I know the pre-arts did well in Iasca, but my memory of their sales figures says that the Art's were infinitely more popular than anything PPI produced previously, or since. There were also a ton of vehicles that used Art series to win Iasca events, they just weren't old enough to be in the early guys cars. That doesn't mean they weren't popular...


----------



## Audiolife

WRX/Z28 said:


> Weird. Everyone else had the opposite reaction. In the mid '90's, you couldn't throw a rock without hitting a car that had a Art series amp in it. :laugh:
> 
> I know the pre-arts did well in Iasca, but my memory of their sales figures says that the Art's were infinitely more popular than anything PPI produced previously, or since. There were also a ton of vehicles that used Art series to win Iasca events, they just weren't old enough to be in the early guys cars. That doesn't mean they weren't popular...


I can only think of 1 of the top of my head that used the art series (I competed) and by 96-98 you didnt see too many ppi comp cars at least in the mid west or at SBN. I competed after the first back seat driver won finals as they was my installer/teachers and is also how I met up with the PJ's crowd because they put Protech components up front of the skeep. 2 sets of 5.25" components 1 pr of Oz tweeters in back along the hatch and 6 Oz 300L 12's in back running IB. 'twas the perfect 40 car.


----------



## jimmyjames16

That new Art Series amp looks _HORRIBLE!!_ ... how do you do that to legend of an amp??


----------



## 89grand

benny said:


> I remember the popular combo being Quart, AudioControl, JL, and PPI _Arts_.


Yeah. My first "good" system was in the mid-later 90's. I had an Alpine deck, Audio Control Epicenter, Audio Control 4.1, Audio Control 24XS, MB Quart reference 5.25" components, two JL Audio 10W1's and a PPI A200 and A600.2.


----------



## Lanson

This officially makes the last passable PPI amps the DCX series. Only if you remove all the metal penis cladding. Then they look presentable, like this:


















Something like that.


----------



## trust7

WRX/Z28 said:


> Surely you can't be serious. Acording to recent info, the AM was the fixing of the M series. The art's were a million times more popular from what I could tell. The powerclass amps were still great amps, but even they never seemed to catch on like the art's did.
> 
> Theres a reason why the art's still have a cult like following. The PC series, and M,AM, Promos doesn't have that...




I can agree with you on the sales figures Possibly, but PC not having a cult following ? Did you not just see two new limited PCs sell in this very forum for 1500.00 ? The PC class VERY much have a cult following. There was a lot of guys dealing with audio in the below mentioned PPI/MBQ/JL time that will do nothing else now but look for old PC class amps to run.


On a side note nobody has any idea when/where anyone will have these or fleebay is the only obvious ?

I am going to get a 640.4 PC and a A840.4 and put them in my wifes car to see whats what, might be a huge mistake but thats was re-selling things is for heh.


----------



## msmith

Audiolife said:


> Having owned the M AM and Promos when they were new and then working in retail/installing when the art series was out I can AND WILL stick by what I said. 80% of their IASCA world championships were won by the lines I listed. Back when the combonation of choice was MB Quart speakers, JL subs and those very lines of PPI amps.


The Speaker Warehouse cars that created the JL/Quart/PPI/Streetwires craze all used AM and ProMOS amps. This was in 1989-1991... the Arts came later and became popular among subsequent IASCA competitors. PPI sold a lot more Arts than AM's because they had a ton more dealers in the mid 90's and went through a big growth spurt.

There wasn't any discernible performance difference between the AM's and the Art Series. Not in my experience, anyway... and I used them both.


----------



## subwoofery

msmith said:


> ...There wasn't any discernible performance difference between the AM's and the Art Series. Not in my experience, anyway... and I used them both.


Oooooooooooooh... That comment is gonna hurt real bad (Russel Peters dad's voice) 

Kelvin


----------



## trust7

ROFLCopter


----------



## old_skool_noma

just noticed this, the got the info on their art SQ subwoofer chart backwards from the description text, they said that the 8" will have dual 4 ohm coils and the 12" will have dual 2 ohm coils, but on the chart it says that the 8" has dual 2ohm and the 12" has dual 4 ohm

i also noticed the "four" instead of "for" on the PC subwoofers when i posted the link

i also think that the power class amps should have gotten the sedona heat sink with the graphics used on the power class


----------



## JayBee

It all looks pretty suspect. I guess we'll what the market says. The 3way set is the only thing that caught my eye... i think it was the copper paint.


----------



## trust7

The 3-way set has a small chance of being good, the PC and Art series DO have a chance at being good, the amps that is, but its unlikely that they are anything to write home about.


----------



## audiogodz1

benny said:


> I remember the popular combo being Quart, AudioControl, JL, and PPI _Arts_.


That's the ticket. Throw in an acoustic membrane and some Waveguides on certain vehicles and you had the vehicle to beat.


----------



## Audiolife

msmith said:


> The Speaker Warehouse cars that created the JL/Quart/PPI/Streetwires craze all used AM and ProMOS amps. This was in 1989-1991... the Arts came later and became popular among subsequent IASCA competitors. PPI sold a lot more Arts than AM's because they had a ton more dealers in the mid 90's and went through a big growth spurt.
> 
> There wasn't any discernible performance difference between the AM's and the Art Series. Not in my experience, anyway... and I used them both.


In my experiences the Art series tended to overheat when put in closed quarters more so then sedona and promos. I had 2 M series 2200M and an 2150M and 2 4200AM all in my escort at once LOL. I remember my sales person from Speaker Warehouse was Jay Rudko (spell check last name) and he at one time worked with a local radio station near my home town in Indiana. I remember a lot more cars using the ProMos series in the time frame after the AM when they released the full line with the 12 25 and 50 and the 2 4 channels. That was during the start of the high current low impedance craze(Soundstream PG and Orion also were in on the craze). If it wasn't for the M, AM and ProMos the Arts never would have had large widespread use because the older series drove up the reputation even before areas had sales reps. 2 of the 4 amps in my system were purchased from a mag because there were no dealers even remotely local to me until the year following of me starting to put together my system. I had PPI 1 year before we had a dealer, JL 2 years before we had a dealer and MB quart 2 years before we had a dealer. The shop I worked at in the 90's also dropped PPI when the art series was still out in favor for Xtant and Kicker.


----------



## WRX/Z28

Audiolife said:


> In my experiences the Art series tended to overheat when put in closed quarters more so then sedona and promos. I had 2 M series 2200M and an 2150M and 2 4200AM all in my escort at once LOL. I remember my sales person from Speaker Warehouse was Jay Rudko (spell check last name) and he at one time worked with a local radio station near my home town in Indiana. I remember a lot more cars using the ProMos series in the time frame after the AM when they released the full line with the 12 25 and 50 and the 2 4 channels. That was during the start of the high current low impedance craze(Soundstream PG and Orion also were in on the craze). If it wasn't for the M, AM and ProMos the Arts never would have had large widespread use because the older series drove up the reputation even before areas had sales reps. 2 of the 4 amps in my system were purchased from a mag because there were no dealers even remotely local to me until the year following of me starting to put together my system. I had PPI 1 year before we had a dealer, JL 2 years before we had a dealer and MB quart 2 years before we had a dealer. The shop I worked at in the 90's also dropped PPI when the art series was still out in favor for Xtant and Kicker.



I've been using an A300.2 as my sub amp for around 5 years, and I've yet to have it overheat, even on my long ass drives.


----------



## msmith

Audiolife said:


> In my experiences the Art series tended to overheat when put in closed quarters more so then sedona and promos. I had 2 M series 2200M and an 2150M and 2 4200AM all in my escort at once LOL. I remember my sales person from Speaker Warehouse was Jay Rudko (spell check last name) and he at one time worked with a local radio station near my home town in Indiana.


Yes, I worked with Jay... you spelled it right.



> I remember a lot more cars using the ProMos series in the time frame after the AM when they released the full line with the 12 25 and 50 and the 2 4 channels. That was during the start of the high current low impedance craze(Soundstream PG and Orion also were in on the craze). If it wasn't for the M, AM and ProMos the Arts never would have had large widespread use because the older series drove up the reputation even before areas had sales reps. 2 of the 4 amps in my system were purchased from a mag because there were no dealers even remotely local to me until the year following of me starting to put together my system. I had PPI 1 year before we had a dealer, JL 2 years before we had a dealer and MB quart 2 years before we had a dealer. The shop I worked at in the 90's also dropped PPI when the art series was still out in favor for Xtant and Kicker.


PPI hit full stride in the mid 90's which was when the Art series was in full production. I don't doubt that these were their best sellers for that reason. They simply had more dealers by then. In the late 80's and early 90's PPI wasn't that well known. Rockford and Orion were bigger names.


----------



## Audiolife

WRX/Z28 said:


> I've been using an A300.2 as my sub amp for around 5 years, and I've yet to have it overheat, even on my long ass drives.


Is it under a seat or along the back wall of a regular cab truck with a sub box next to it?


----------



## WRX/Z28

Audiolife said:


> Is it under a seat or along the back wall of a regular cab truck with a sub box next to it?


No, mine is on the back of the seat in the trunk of my wrx. I had my A600.2 running a 10w7 at 3ohm bridged before, and couldn't get that one to thermal either, even running slightly too low of a load.


----------



## Audiolife

WRX/Z28 said:


> No, mine is on the back of the seat in the trunk of my wrx. I had my A600.2 running a 10w7 at 3ohm bridged before, and couldn't get that one to thermal either, even running slightly too low of a load.


I am not calling them bad, I just know we did a lot of pick up trucks with art series amps (might be 4 channels I don't remember) and I can distinctly remember a few with overheating issues, thing is other amplifiers started coming out with extra features that simplified systems (eq and xovers) even though they looked like a grill or a belgian waffle.:laugh:


----------



## 89grand

had two art series amps that I ran for a long time. They never over heated or got all that hot.


----------



## jonnyanalog

89grand said:


> Yeah. My first "good" system was in the mid-later 90's. I had an Alpine deck, Audio Control Epicenter, Audio Control 4.1, Audio Control 24XS, MB Quart reference 5.25" components, two JL Audio 10W1's and a PPI A200 and A600.2.


My first "SQ" system was an MBQ 3 way set (4" coaxes and 6.5" woofers)with musicomp passives, IDQ10, and PPI A404.2 with various Sony ES and Pioneer decks. No real processing. All this was in a 1991 standard cab GMC Sonoma. Circa 1998.


----------



## Audiolife

89grand said:


> had two art series amps that I ran for a long time. They never over heated or got all that hot.


I am not saying every one did just after you install and deal with 50+ directly and I also know that a couple were replaced with the other brands of amplifiers and they never came back with a problem. I even know a couple of them went out and replaced their batteries and they still would eventually shut down. Basic set ups for these trucks was 1 10" 4 ohm kicker or 2 8" or 10" 8ohm subs and a set of new coax or components in the door. Over heating was not a common thing at the time because we always had the 4 ohm mono rule on subs and 2 ohm on stereo you do not run into too many issues. We also sold pioneer and kenwood, oddly enough only issues with those set ups with those amps is when they would dial up the gains themselves and trash speakers.


----------



## jimmyjames16

...this is a very long thread for disappointing future Art amps


----------



## 89grand

cedoman said:


> ...this is a very long thread for disappointing future Art amps


Well, on a positive note, they aren't future Art amps no matter what they claim.


----------



## ebrahim

I would NOT buy them at all even if you gave me a million dollars. Also I would stay away from them and other brands like Orion, Polk Audio, Soundstream, Power Acoustic, Kicker, Sony, REALM, Schsosche, Maxxonics and the list goes on. 

Now days the only amps that I call "budget" amps are Arc Audio. I would try them, Zapco, JL Audio and TMA. Those are the only ones I could afford if they are $500 and under for an amp sorry.


----------



## kroid7777

ebrahim said:


> I would NOT buy them at all even if you gave me a million dollars. Also I would stay away from them and other brands like Orion, Polk Audio, Soundstream, Power Acoustic, Kicker, Sony, REALM, Schsosche, Maxxonics and the list goes on.
> 
> Now days the only amps that I call "budget" amps are Arc Audio. I would try them, Zapco, JL Audio and TMA. Those are the only ones I could afford if they are $500 and under for an amp sorry.


Polk is not low end,Sorry.


----------



## ebrahim

I heard it was after the buyout.


----------



## WRX/Z28

kroid7777 said:


> Polk is not low end,Sorry.


Polk was purchased buy Directed, just like Orion, PPI, ADS, Clifford, and so on.


----------



## kroid7777

WRX/Z28 said:


> Polk was purchased buy Directed, just like Orion, PPI, ADS, Clifford, and so on.


Maybe thats where it all starts to fall...I own some Old school polk and theyre one of my faves...Ive listened to some of the new stuff too though and it aint bad...Im just a polk nuthugger I guess....

Polk kept their management personnel though....

Directed Electronics to Buy Polk Audio - Club Polk

I think that somehow helps them to not sink as fast as the other brands....


----------



## ReloadedSS

WRX/Z28 said:


> Polk was purchased buy Directed, just like Orion, PPI, ADS, Clifford, and so on.


I wouldn't mind Polk's Signature Reference Series, maybe some of their older stuff, but for the price it's kind of hard to go with them, even used.


----------



## Audiolife

heck I still have some of the old ppi din cables I just found


----------



## wdemetrius1

Apart from the looks, has anyone heard this amp yet?


----------



## wdemetrius1

I'm curious to know, since they are built by the same people who built the new soundstream amps, iirc.


----------



## Accordman

spoke to a rep about the new PPI line. china made amps with nothing special at all in the model he had with him..no other models were available at that time but the model he had was thier low line.


----------



## Louie68

Accordman said:


> spoke to a rep about the new PPI line. china made amps with nothing special at all in the model he had with him..no other models were available at that time but the model he had was thier low line.


Hey Ray if it was the same day I was there it was the Sedona line he had.


----------



## TeamLorett

wdemetrius1 said:


> I'm curious to know, since they are built by the same people who built the new soundstream amps, iirc.


 They are owned by Epilson electronics now. They were trying to buy them before they were beat to death by the DEI buyout. Many of the guys there are old school die hard PPI fans back as far as the Pro MOS days and were excited to finally buy PPI. There have been a lot of changes as well as a lot of the old school design of the original PPI being implemented into the new products. The engineer for PPI has seperated himself and completely redisigned the PPI line. The new Art series amps are not what is shown in the 2010 catalog. Keep a eye out for them. They look like what you would expect from PPI and perform excellent! I have some of the new PPI equipment and it is doing very well. My vehicle is a DEI/PPI based vehicle and does very well also but I am switching to the new Epilson stuff! People are just now starting to realize how good the PPI equipment was. People are so typical..... OMG! they have been bought out and the company is going to live off the name!!!! This is not what is happening here. I have spoke face to face with the guys from Eplison and been playing with the new product for the next build. It all performs excellent for its price bracket with great reliablility and the PDX 10K is insane as well as true to its ratings!!!! So anyone who wat to shhot from the hip feel free but until you have used it everything is speculation and typical BS.


----------



## Accordman

Louie68 said:


> Hey Ray if it was the same day I was there it was the Sedona line he had.


lol shows how interested i was


----------



## benny

Hey Epsilon...

Malware Warning


----------



## WRX/Z28

TeamLorett said:


> They are owned by Epilson electronics now. They were trying to buy them before they were beat to death by the DEI buyout. Many of the guys there are old school die hard PPI fans back as far as the Pro MOS days and were excited to finally buy PPI. There have been a lot of changes as well as a lot of the old school design of the original PPI being implemented into the new products. The engineer for PPI has seperated himself and completely redisigned the PPI line. The new Art series amps are not what is shown in the 2010 catalog. Keep a eye out for them. They look like what you would expect from PPI and perform excellent! I have some of the new PPI equipment and it is doing very well. My vehicle is a DEI/PPI based vehicle and does very well also but I am switching to the new Epilson stuff! People are just now starting to realize how good the PPI equipment was. People are so typical..... OMG! they have been bought out and the company is going to live off the name!!!! This is not what is happening here. I have spoke face to face with the guys from Eplison and been playing with the new product for the next build. It all performs excellent for its price bracket with great reliablility and the PDX 10K is insane as well as true to its ratings!!!! So anyone who wat to shhot from the hip feel free but until you have used it everything is speculation and typical BS.


The old PPI engineer now works for JL audio. What are you talking about?  Talk about speculation and BS.


----------



## wdemetrius1

I'm still on the lookout.


----------



## Grizz Archer

ChrisB said:


> Epsilon Electronics, the maker of Kole, Power Acoustik, and other crap brands, purchased PPI and also owns Soundstream. The last rumor that I had was that PPI is going to be positioned as the company's "high end" product and they were considering doing a modern rendition of the Art series.
> 
> The other industry rumor that I heard was that PPI's entry level amplifiers will contain the current Soundstream Reference circuit boards. In other words, their "regular" line will have Soundstream's current top offering.


I do not bother to come on here very often due to posts like this. However to set the record straight, we own Soundstream, PPI, Power Acoustik, SPL, Kole and Farenheit. How is it even possible for a referrence amp that hass all connections on one side to be the same board as any PPI amp that is more traditional with connections on both sides? Some of these rumors have to insabely obvious that they are wrong. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that they are entirely different amplifiers. I'll go through this thread and reply to any other 100% false statements, but if you have a reply or question on my comments, please contact me directly at [email protected], or send me an email with a link if I need to give a reply that everybody needs to hear...


----------



## Grizz Archer

SQ4ME2 said:


> i am certain it will not be the quality of the old Art series. I often get a chubby thinking of A/D/S or KEF coming out of the grave to return and make great speakers again.


ADS and KEF are both dead, unfortunately. Let me ask you a question, and I am NOT picking on you, my friend...

Why would a company come out with a new amplifier that would be worse that what they already had. True, there are a few companies that got bought out and the new owners cheapend the stuff and the lines went from farily good to really bad. It sucks when this happens, but I have seen it several times over the last 27 years. 

Anyway, DEI is putting their focus on Orion which is a good move on their part. They never really got behind PPI and they admit it. They were glad to sell it to us. We saw a phenomenal name that had the potential to be great again. 

Anyway, back to the point. We got the same questions about Soundstream Referrence amps. They were gone for 10 freaking years. it was not easy to make a better amplifier since they were so badass way back then. But here are the fact for ALL BRANDS... Technology changes, materials changes, people get smarter. If none of this were true, we would still be driving ****ty cars, using DOS on our computers and playing Atari. Follow me? OF COURSE the new amps have to be good. There should only be one question from everybody - What is better, Pro Class or Art? I will settle that argument right now. Power Class is the highest level of PPI amplifier for 2010. It was the best when DEI had it, but before it existed, Art was the best on the good ol days. The Art series is a true statement piece. Always has been and needs to be still. But in an economy where everybody wants studio-grade amplifiers for eBay prices, accomodating everybody's wants is impossible. IF we made the new Art Series true studio grade like the Soundstream Human Reign, nobody would buy them because they would cost too much. Plus, some primadonna know-it-all punk kids would still not like it for whatever reason. The fact is that entry level sells. We make high end products because know how, and because it proves what we are capable of. Sedona amps will outsell Art and Power Class, no doubt. Surely everybody will agree with that. When we make an order for Human Reign, they last for a whole year. But Sedonna sold out a few models before we ever received it! No surprise - it's PPI brand, it looks good, and shops know they can sell it and make a good profit margin.

Damn, I got off track again. Anyway, the Art series in the catalog is NOT what it will look like. The boards have been done for 6 months. But we have been having an internal fued to be honest on the new heatsink. IMHO, the heatsink in the catalog was so freaking gay! Stupid! Boring! I threw a fit and got the VP on my side. Togeteher we convinced the owner that people want the nostalgic look. So here is where we are at in all honesty... We are down to 2 heatsinks. One is nearly identical to the origional and the other is a slightly distorted version but still very cool and obvious that is is a fresh new version os Art. It will come in Black and Copper to accomodate my Art SQ subs and Powr Class components. I got a boner for Black and Copper and now everybody loves it!!! The new amps have WAY more advanced preamp sections - another fetich of mine. They will be ultra clean with very, very high damping control over cone movement. 

Heck, do not take my word for it, just wait a few more months and go hear one for yourself with your favorite SQ tracks...


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz, thanks for coming on here and addressing some of the concerns about the Art series stuff, specifically the amps. 
Many of us cut our teeth on the original PPI equipment. For me it's always been the Pro Mos stuff that I appreciated. Others prefer the original Art and Art .2 amps. I think we all have a fairly high standard when it comes to the SQ or Professional level amps that PPI came up with in it's heyday. So, it's good to hear that you guys are rethinking the appearance of the new Art amps. My advice is to go with the traditional-retro look much like you did with the SS Reference amps.
Better yet, make it a decision that consumers can help make. Allow people to VOTE on which design they prefer. It would be a great way to increase traffic to the PPI website and expose them to the other new lines at the same time. 
Just an idea.


----------



## ChrisB

Grizz Archer said:


> I do not bother to come on here very often due to posts like this. However to set the record straight, we own Soundstream, PPI, Power Acoustik, SPL, Kole and Farenheit. How is it even possible for a referrence amp that hass all connections on one side to be the same board as any PPI amp that is more traditional with connections on both sides? Some of these rumors have to insabely obvious that they are wrong. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that they are entirely different amplifiers. I'll go through this thread and reply to any other 100% false statements, but if you have a reply or question on my comments, please contact me directly at [email protected], or send me an email with a link if I need to give a reply that everybody needs to hear...


I had almost forgotten that PPI was coming out with a new line. I was trying to find the link to where this rumor was posted, and I can't. No matter, you stated that it is not true and we can just leave it at that.

On the bright side, at least your company is trying to do something positive with the PPI name.


----------



## benny

benny said:


> Hey Epsilon...
> 
> Malware Warning


What happened here? Hosting attack sites?



Grizz Archer said:


> Some of these rumors have to insabely obvious that they are wrong.


LOL wut?


----------



## WRX/Z28

Grizz Archer said:


> ADS and KEF are both dead, unfortunately. Let me ask you a question, and I am NOT picking on you, my friend...
> 
> Why would a company come out with a new amplifier that would be worse that what they already had. True, there are a few companies that got bought out and the new owners cheapend the stuff and the lines went from farily good to really bad. It sucks when this happens, but I have seen it several times over the last 27 years.


The general reason is to save money. The next reason is generally that they did not want to pay for the rights to continue to produce the same products that the previous owners made. 



Grizz Archer said:


> Anyway, DEI is putting their focus on Orion which is a good move on their part. They never really got behind PPI and they admit it. They were glad to sell it to us. We saw a phenomenal name that had the potential to be great again.
> 
> Anyway, back to the point. We got the same questions about Soundstream Referrence amps. They were gone for 10 freaking years. it was not easy to make a better amplifier since they were so badass way back then. But here are the fact for ALL BRANDS... Technology changes, materials changes, people get smarter. If none of this were true, we would still be driving ****ty cars, using DOS on our computers and playing Atari. Follow me? OF COURSE the new amps have to be good. There should only be one question from everybody - What is better, Pro Class or Art? I will settle that argument right now. Power Class is the highest level of PPI amplifier for 2010. It was the best when DEI had it, but before it existed, Art was the best on the good ol days. The Art series is a true statement piece. Always has been and needs to be still. But in an economy where everybody wants studio-grade amplifiers for eBay prices, accomodating everybody's wants is impossible. IF we made the new Art Series true studio grade like the Soundstream Human Reign, nobody would buy them because they would cost too much. Plus, some primadonna know-it-all punk kids would still not like it for whatever reason. The fact is that entry level sells. We make high end products because know how, and because it proves what we are capable of. Sedona amps will outsell Art and Power Class, no doubt. Surely everybody will agree with that. When we make an order for Human Reign, they last for a whole year. But Sedonna sold out a few models before we ever received it! No surprise - it's PPI brand, it looks good, and shops know they can sell it and make a good profit margin.


When PPI was out, the art series was their top of the line, and when Jeff and Bruce started Xtant, and ppi decided to replace the art series, the power class amps were the direct replacement, but designed much differently. IMO, they were never held in the same regard as the art series amps were. 

I'm not sure how you determined that the power class was an upper level series from the arts, but it's not really the case, at least not in the original amps. 



Grizz Archer said:


> Damn, I got off track again. Anyway, the Art series in the catalog is NOT what it will look like. The boards have been done for 6 months. But we have been having an internal fued to be honest on the new heatsink. IMHO, the heatsink in the catalog was so freaking gay! Stupid! Boring! I threw a fit and got the VP on my side. Togeteher we convinced the owner that people want the nostalgic look. So here is where we are at in all honesty... We are down to 2 heatsinks. One is nearly identical to the origional and the other is a slightly distorted version but still very cool and obvious that is is a fresh new version os Art. It will come in Black and Copper to accomodate my Art SQ subs and Powr Class components. I got a boner for Black and Copper and now everybody loves it!!! The new amps have WAY more advanced preamp sections - another fetich of mine. They will be ultra clean with very, very high damping control over cone movement.
> 
> Heck, do not take my word for it, just wait a few more months and go hear one for yourself with your favorite SQ tracks...


IMHO, when you release a catalog with products in it that are "on their way" and change your mind before they ever hit the shelf, you lose some credibility. It's almost like you guys printed a catalong full of vaporware at that point...


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> Grizz, thanks for coming on here and addressing some of the concerns about the Art series stuff, specifically the amps.
> Many of us cut our teeth on the original PPI equipment. For me it's always been the Pro Mos stuff that I appreciated. Others prefer the original Art and Art .2 amps. I think we all have a fairly high standard when it comes to the SQ or Professional level amps that PPI came up with in it's heyday. So, it's good to hear that you guys are rethinking the appearance of the new Art amps. My advice is to go with the traditional-retro look much like you did with the SS Reference amps.
> Better yet, make it a decision that consumers can help make. Allow people to VOTE on which design they prefer. It would be a great way to increase traffic to the PPI website and expose them to the other new lines at the same time.
> Just an idea.


The Art series will be either identical or very slightly different. I LOVED the Pro Mos. SOme of the old guys may remember the IASCA 1-50 watt class. Guy would build their entire system on a pair of Pro Mos 25 ampsor even one Pro Mos 50. This was back in the day when electronics xovers werte not in amps, and it was a work of art to custom build gorgeous passive networks. Trust me, you will not be disappointed...


----------



## Grizz Archer

ChrisB said:


> I had almost forgotten that PPI was coming out with a new line. I was trying to find the link to where this rumor was posted, and I can't. No matter, you stated that it is not true and we can just leave it at that.
> 
> On the bright side, at least your company is trying to do something positive with the PPI name.


Tood good of a name to let go to waste! Soundstream had a bad down fall when Coleman owned it. It took alot of work and time to rebuild that brand, so we can do the same with PPI, but it should not take as long. The problem is that there are very few avenues to advertise now that all of the car audio magazines went out of business. Time to start sponsoring cars! :^)


----------



## Grizz Archer

WRX/Z28 said:


> The general reason is to save money. The next reason is generally that they did not want to pay for the rights to continue to produce the same products that the previous owners made.
> 
> 
> 
> When PPI was out, the art series was their top of the line, and when Jeff and Bruce started Xtant, and ppi decided to replace the art series, the power class amps were the direct replacement, but designed much differently. IMO, they were never held in the same regard as the art series amps were.
> 
> I'm not sure how you determined that the power class was an upper level series from the arts, but it's not really the case, at least not in the original amps.
> 
> I understand your skepticism. I really do because I am the same way, alwasy have been. Jeff and Bruce are friends of mine. I was working at MTX in the mid 90s when MTX bought Xtant. I was fortunate to work with both of them. The two of them make a phenomenal team and I hold them in very high regard. That was our problem, which one to make the high end series. ALot of guys my age are out of the business. The newer fanatics know the Power Class and might have researched the Art series but were not lucky enough to be around when Art was in production. We asked alot of people and went with the suggestion to make the Power Class the high end. But I know older guys that are waiting for the Art Series, even though it is below the Power Class. They just have to have Art amps. I understand this as well. Obviously I can have whatever the hell I want, but I want Art amps. I currently use PPI 3-way components and sub(s) and Soundstream amps and rear fill. If I can figure out a way to install Art amps without taking up any useable space in my Jeep, it's on! I got a boner for the black and copper aesthetics and love the Art series amps.
> 
> 
> IMHO, when you release a catalog with products in it that are "on their way" and change your mind before they ever hit the shelf, you lose some credibility. It's almost like you guys printed a catalong full of vaporware at that point...


Yeah, yeaghh, I know and I hear ya loud and clear. I hate when a company shows tuff at CES and tell you that it will be available in Junetember! Pisses me off. For the most part, all PPI is in stock and we have sold out of alot and replenished stock. The Power Class was easy because it has a similar oval chassis. But Art is very different. If we released it like it was in the catalog would you buy it? I wouldn't! I think it butt-freakin'-ugly! I was embarrased, but there was too much arguring internally on the heatsink. I do not mean to sound like an ass, but I am pretty sure I am rright when I say thay it needs to be identical or very similar to the original heatsink, but with modern colors/graphics. Maybe I am wrong but I fight with everybody every damn day. We are down to 2 designs, both of which will be black and copper colors to complimentn my Art SQ subs and Power Class components. Am I an idiot? I am very opinionated, not biased, but very opinionated. I may be way off and if I am, everybody please tell me so. The thing that really pisses me off is that we missed high season already and could have sold through at least 2 shipments by now. The boards are freakin' done, it is just a cosmetic confirmation we are arguing over...


----------



## Grizz Archer

cedoman said:


> ...this is a very long thread for disappointing future Art amps


I am not picking on you, but I have to ask. How in the hell can you call them disappointing when you have never heard one or seen one. No offense, but it is for reason like this that manufacturers do not work on the forums. Way too many opinion that are impossible to justify. If a guys siad that they would be better than the originals, he could be full of poop as wel, since he has the same experience as you - NONE. The fact is that we are making new Art Series amps with modern technology. Do you bash on Rockford, MTX, ARC or any other brand with no possible reason to justify your comments?

In the 90s when forums started, enthusiasts went on them to learn, gather opinions, and get ideas. I stayed away from forums for several years because there was alot os poop talking and it became more like a highschool girly gossip group. I want to be able to come on here and learn from people and understand what all of you want. Not just for my brands but for the industry as well. I will stick up for any legit company in this fashion. 

My point is this... Why do you make a statement that has zero value? You may have just turned somebody against PPI. Do you hate us? Did you have a bad experience with PPI in the past before we owned it? Where does the bitterness come from? Since you have never heard one or seen one, there is no reason to make a bad comment when you have no idea what you are talking about. Again, I am not trying to belittle you. I just want to know why you make empty statements and what I can do to answer questions that you obviously have...


----------



## DaylenIsOnFire

SQ4ME2 said:


> i am certain it will not be the quality of the old Art series. I often get a chubby thinking of A/D/S or KEF coming out of the grave to return and make great speakers again.


i love my ph15


----------



## bkjay

I think the power class amps look great. But to be honest I think the subs could of had a more high-end look. Sorry.


----------



## Grizz Archer

bkjay said:


> I think the power class amps look great. But to be honest I think the subs could of had a more high-end look. Sorry.


Thanx for the nice post. I respect your opinion. As for subs, everybody is different. Alot of the old school purists asked for something performance based and not cosmetic based with a bunch of custom tooled parts and motor covers that do nothing for performance. Based on this, Art SQ subs do not have a single custom tooled part. Rather, I spent the money on parts that matter, like tops quality cones and the highest grade Y30 magnets. They look like an ols school driver from 10-15 years ago, but perform extremely well. The Power Class subs are clean with only a magnet boot on the bag to make it look nice. The unique dustcap has to purposes and is not just a weird looking cosmetic gimmick. It is cast aluminum and mounts to the aluminum former to extract heat from the coil gap. It's fins help to disipate the heat quicker for exception cooling like no other driver on the market. The 3 spokes are actually imbedded into recesses in the cone to add stiffness. This results in less cone flex, less distortion and tighter sound. I recently sent a sample to a 3rd party for testing. He said it was the best 15" he had ever heard and did extensive listening with all music genres. But do not take my word for it, look for the review in PAS Magazine.

But again, I respect your opinion. I especially respect your polits attitude. Everybody has an opinion, and they help me learn what people like and want to see come from us. But when they think their opinion is factual and they have zero experience to base their opinion on, I lose all respect. Any other feedback you can give me about PPI products, either by experience or even simply cosmetic opinions? Thanx man!


----------



## JKashat

Any chance that you can post up both heatsink designs in a new thread with a Voting pole to see which one is more popular w/ Precision Power/PPI "Art Series" lovers, like myself? I like the Black and Copper, but I would really LOVE the white w/ art or black w/ circuit boards like the originals. Either way, I'll be all over these. I'll probably get a couple of 4-Channels and either 2-Channel or Mono-Blocks to go with my DEX-P99RS.


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz, I cant believe you even bothered showing up in this FUBAR thread (where the hell were you a few months ago?) To answer your ? about if people bash rockford, mtx, and arc for no reason??????? You bet your ass they do. I wouldnt waste your time, read all 18 pages.....some of the most ignorant comments/ways of thinking I have ever even imagined. I wish you guys the best of luck with the new line. I would put the soundstream ref amps I had (should not have sold  I did give a great deal to a military vet though?) against pretty much anything out there. They were fantastic, and hope the new ppi amps are on par. I try to avoid this place at all costs but I saw you posted so I had to look, thanks for chiming in.


----------



## wdemetrius1

wdemetrius1 said:


> I'm still on the lookout.



I stand by my previous comment. What ever happened to the guy who's wife was a graphics designer and had created the "Black Arts"? I really like them. Just a thought, since you all are having internal arguments on the cosmetics, why not created two separate interchangeable heat sinks. Maybe one could be included and the other could be purchased separatly. Maybe even some type of customization could be ordered by the customer. Just thoughts.


----------



## W8 a minute

wdemetrius1 said:


> Maybe one could be included and the other could be purchased separatly. Maybe even some type of customization could be ordered by the customer. Just thoughts.


Since they are "art" series I vote for "Dogs playing poker" or "Velvet Elvis"


----------



## Notloudenuf

Build an Etch-A-Sketch into the heat sink and the customer can make their own "Art"


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz Archer said:


> The Art series will be either identical or very slightly different. I LOVED the Pro Mos. SOme of the old guys may remember the IASCA 1-50 watt class. Guy would build their entire system on a pair of Pro Mos 25 ampsor even one Pro Mos 50. This was back in the day when electronics xovers werte not in amps, and it was a work of art to custom build gorgeous passive networks. Trust me, you will not be disappointed...


Good to hear that the new Art amps will visually be similiar to the originals. That should make alot of people happy. I still think posting a poll with potential customers voting for the design of their choice would be a nice touch but, I understand time constraints on ordering might make such a poll impossible to do. 
Personally, I loved the Pro Mos 50 amps so much, I STILL run two in my daily driver. No onboard crossovers, no bass boost, nothing but, dynamic power wrapped up in cool, black-finned heatsinks. In fact, I have been cranking my system with some Queensryche- Empire, all day long. 
I'm 42 and get some funny looks at stoplights too. LOL.


----------



## ryan s

PPI_GUY said:


> Good to hear that the new Art amps will visually be similiar to the originals. That should make alot of people happy. I still think posting a poll with potential customers voting for the design of their choice would be a nice touch but, I understand time constraints on ordering might make such a poll impossible to do.
> Personally, I loved the Pro Mos 50 amps so much, I STILL run two in my daily driver. No onboard crossovers, no bass boost, nothing but, dynamic power wrapped up in cool, black-finned heatsinks. *In fact, I have been cranking my system with some Queensryche- Empire, all day long. *
> I'm 42 and get some funny looks at stoplights too. LOL.


Only time I've clipped my stereo was to "Jet City Woman"...oops


----------



## synth808

my only comment is get your hands on the power class component set and you will get a clear understanding of what they can do.
And if you a big enough guy, try on the 3 way set.


----------



## ChrisB

ryan s said:


> Only time I've clipped my stereo was to "Jet City Woman"...oops


Well, that is a good tune to clip a system to.


----------



## benny

So, what was going on with the Precision Power website? I still have no answer, and I dont want to risk my computers health to go there.


----------



## subwoofery

benny said:


> So, what was going on with the Precision Power website? I still have no answer, and I dont want to risk my computers health to go there.


Just tried and there's no problem - safe now 

Kelvin


----------



## AudioDave

Grizz Archer said:


> ADS and KEF are both dead, unfortunately. Let me ask you a question, and I am NOT picking on you, my friend...
> 
> Why would a company come out with a new amplifier that would be worse that what they already had. True, there are a few companies that got bought out and the new owners cheapend the stuff and the lines went from farily good to really bad. It sucks when this happens, but I have seen it several times over the last 27 years.
> 
> Anyway, DEI is putting their focus on Orion which is a good move on their part. They never really got behind PPI and they admit it. They were glad to sell it to us. We saw a phenomenal name that had the potential to be great again.
> 
> Anyway, back to the point. We got the same questions about Soundstream Referrence amps. They were gone for 10 freaking years. it was not easy to make a better amplifier since they were so badass way back then. But here are the fact for ALL BRANDS... Technology changes, materials changes, people get smarter. If none of this were true, we would still be driving ****ty cars, using DOS on our computers and playing Atari. Follow me? OF COURSE the new amps have to be good. There should only be one question from everybody - What is better, Pro Class or Art? I will settle that argument right now. Power Class is the highest level of PPI amplifier for 2010. It was the best when DEI had it, but before it existed, Art was the best on the good ol days. The Art series is a true statement piece. Always has been and needs to be still. But in an economy where everybody wants studio-grade amplifiers for eBay prices, accomodating everybody's wants is impossible. IF we made the new Art Series true studio grade like the Soundstream Human Reign, nobody would buy them because they would cost too much. Plus, some primadonna know-it-all punk kids would still not like it for whatever reason. The fact is that entry level sells. We make high end products because know how, and because it proves what we are capable of. Sedona amps will outsell Art and Power Class, no doubt. Surely everybody will agree with that. When we make an order for Human Reign, they last for a whole year. But Sedonna sold out a few models before we ever received it! No surprise - it's PPI brand, it looks good, and shops know they can sell it and make a good profit margin.
> 
> Damn, I got off track again. Anyway, the Art series in the catalog is NOT what it will look like. The boards have been done for 6 months. But we have been having an internal fued to be honest on the new heatsink. IMHO, the heatsink in the catalog was so freaking gay! Stupid! Boring! I threw a fit and got the VP on my side. Togeteher we convinced the owner that people want the nostalgic look. So here is where we are at in all honesty... We are down to 2 heatsinks. One is nearly identical to the origional and the other is a slightly distorted version but still very cool and obvious that is is a fresh new version os Art. It will come in Black and Copper to accomodate my Art SQ subs and Powr Class components. I got a boner for Black and Copper and now everybody loves it!!! The new amps have WAY more advanced preamp sections - another fetich of mine. They will be ultra clean with very, very high damping control over cone movement.
> 
> Heck, do not take my word for it, just wait a few more months and go hear one for yourself with your favorite SQ tracks...



Not trying to bust your balls but who are you? 

In 2011 when they are released, the Art series will as I been told by PPI as well as the rep here they will be damn close to the originals. They are not even comparable to PC line? Also been told they will not be made overseas like the other lines. 

As for the stament about sedona amps outselling, if you base that on a cost only point maybe. If you have dealers like me who can sell I disagree. Afterall, if you really know PPI history esp the Art, you know then they were the #1 car audio items sold for several years....and people paid what they cost. And for when DEI had it, it was undeniably the worst. Slowly over time, they are destroying Orion as well. PPI Was great when it was PPI. Once the asian market got in and it was all changed to sell quantity and not quality, these names were destroyed. Period. Anyone who knows also the diff in the PC and the Art designs and boards knows they are night and day. I just hope that the Art isnt just to bring them back, because that is where the true PPI Art lover will rest, in the past. I once again, have been considering carrying it again. But when I get my piece to audition, I promise you it will be tested as hard as we tested the original M stuff and the Art in Phoenix when we got those. 

As for what you said about Soundstream Human Reign, people do buy high end. The PPI DCX system was $2500.00 when it came out, Rockford Syymetry was $2000.00, Dr. Crankenstein amps were $3000.00 and on back order....and so on. You can even compare stuff like that. Old School rule of thumb was a $1.00 a watt, and you "absolutly" got what you paid for - "state of the art." People paid it before, they will again - If its comparable.

I have had many talks with Kevin about this very thing. Ask him about out talk about DAC costs - If you work there you know who he is. Like I said to him, we will know when these brands are once again great - when the other companies *buy them from us instead of us buying from them*.


----------



## AudioDave

Grizz Archer said:


> The Art series will be either identical or very slightly different. I LOVED the Pro Mos. SOme of the old guys may remember the IASCA 1-50 watt class. Guy would build their entire system on a pair of Pro Mos 25 ampsor even one Pro Mos 50. This was back in the day when electronics xovers werte not in amps, and it was a work of art to custom build gorgeous passive networks. Trust me, you will not be disappointed...


Dude the Art had xovers built in them what are you saying? a404x, AX606.2, 5075DX etc?? The cheater amps didnt maybe, but they did have them built in.


----------



## AudioDave

PPI_GUY said:


> Good to hear that the new Art amps will visually be similiar to the originals. That should make alot of people happy. I still think posting a poll with potential customers voting for the design of their choice would be a nice touch but, I understand time constraints on ordering might make such a poll impossible to do.
> Personally, I loved the Pro Mos 50 amps so much, I STILL run two in my daily driver. No onboard crossovers, no bass boost, nothing but, dynamic power wrapped up in cool, black-finned heatsinks. In fact, I have been cranking my system with some Queensryche- Empire, all day long.
> I'm 42 and get some funny looks at stoplights too. LOL.


LOL I run Empire too when I demo. In fact, I am creating a new test disc as we speak and may do something off that album. I worked with Sheffield Labs before so I am trying to get an endorsment or 2. If not I will market it to dealers again and to shows.


----------



## sam3535

AudioDave said:


> Not trying to bust your balls but who are you?
> 
> In 2011 when they are released, the Art series will as I been told by PPI as well as the rep here they will be damn close to the originals. They are not even comparable to PC line? Also been told they will not be made overseas like the other lines.
> 
> As for the stament about sedona amps outselling, if you base that on a cost only point maybe. If you have dealers like me who can sell I disagree. Afterall, if you really know PPI history esp the Art, you know then they were the #1 car audio items sold for several years....and people paid what they cost. And for when DEI had it, it was undeniably the worst. Slowly over time, they are destroying Orion as well. PPI Was great when it was PPI. Once the asian market got in and it was all changed to sell quantity and not quality, these names were destroyed. Period. Anyone who knows also the diff in the PC and the Art designs and boards knows they are night and day. I just hope that the Art isnt just to bring them back, because that is where the true PPI Art lover will rest, in the past. I once again, have been considering carrying it again. But when I get my piece to audition, I promise you it will be tested as hard as we tested the original M stuff and the Art in Phoenix when we got those.
> 
> As for what you said about Soundstream Human Reign, people do buy high end. The PPI DCX system was $2500.00 when it came out, Rockford Syymetry was $2000.00, Dr. Crankenstein amps were $3000.00 and on back order....and so on. You can even compare stuff like that. Old School rule of thumb was a $1.00 a watt, and you "absolutly" got what you paid for - "state of the art." People paid it before, they will again - If its comparable.
> 
> I have had many talks with Kevin about this very thing. Ask him about out talk about DAC costs - If you work there you know who he is. Like I said to him, we will know when these brands are once again great - when the other companies *buy them from us instead of us buying from them*.


If you don't know who he is, stop posting.:laugh: It is now official, this thread is ready for cat pics.


----------



## JAX

sam3535 said:


> If you don't know who he is, stop posting.:laugh: It is now official, this thread is ready for cat pics.



no kidding...


----------



## chefhow

AudioDave said:


> LOL I run Empire too when I demo. In fact, I am creating a new test disc as we speak and may do something off that album. I worked with Sheffield Labs before so I am trying to get an endorsment or 2. If not I will market it to dealers again and to shows.


I was listening to "Last Night in Paris" on my way in to work today, loved that album and the dynamics of it all the way thru from front to back.


----------



## DS-21

AudioDave said:


> Dude the Art had xovers built in them what are you saying? a404x, AX606.2, 5075DX etc?? The cheater amps didnt maybe


Most of them did not have xovers built in. In fact, every Art that did not have an "X" in the model number was just a simple gain block. And to my knowledge there were only two of Art Series "X" models: Ax404 and Ax606.2. I don't think there was even an Ax404.2, but I could be wrong on that; I know there wasn't a pre-".2" Ax606.

That means every A100, A200, A204, A300, A404, A600, and A1200 (as well as the .2 evolutions thereof) lacked crossovers or other features. And none of those were "cheater" amps. Only the ProMOS line were. (And the "sub" channels of the Ax606.2.) The rest were honestly rated and designed for normal use.

Furthermore, one typically doesn't consider the 5075DX an "art series," even though it had graphics on the front. It had a conventional box-with-fins chassis rather than the Art Series chassis.

Lastly, if "PPI" told you something, chances are your "who are you" would not have been a question...


----------



## rexroadj

DS-21 said:


> Most of them did not have xovers built in. In fact, every Art that did not have an "X" in the model number was just a simple gain block. And to my knowledge there were only two of Art Series "X" models: Ax404 and Ax606.2. I don't think there was even an Ax404.2, but I could be wrong on that; I know there wasn't a pre-".2" Ax606.
> 
> That means every A100, A200, A204, A300, A404, A600, and A1200 (as well as the .2 evolutions thereof) lacked crossovers or other features. And none of those were "cheater" amps. Only the ProMOS line were. (And the "sub" channels of the Ax606.2.) The rest were honestly rated and designed for normal use.
> 
> Furthermore, one typically doesn't consider the 5075DX an "art series," even though it had graphics on the front. It had a conventional box-with-fins chassis rather than the Art Series chassis.
> 
> Lastly, if "PPI" told you something, chances are your "who are you" would not have been a question...


Ummmmmmmm..................................... What he said!!!!
that sums it up perfect!


----------



## DS-21

Moreover, anecdotally at least, in my area the Ax ones were hard to find at the time. Special order, at MSRP, only. (HiFi Buys was a large local dealer. Rob Hephner was a rep in my local store at the time.) I wanted an Ax404, but because I couldn't get one for less than MSRP I ended up at the time getting the A404.2 and an AudioControl 24XS.

And Googling "PPI Ax404.2" yielded no hits for actual amps (a few "plug kits") so I'm inclined to believe my memory that there was no Ax404.2, so just the Ax404 and Ax606.2 for Arts with crossovers built in. And that makes sense. Often audio companies don't update niche products as often as their mainstream stuff. For example, Adcom kept their four-channel GFA-2535 in the lineup long after the amp on which it was based had gone from GFA-535 to GFA-535II to whatever the four-digit version was.

On another topic, new PPI will be totally uninteresting to me unless they join the modern age and come up with amps that compete with the Jello XD and HD, Ubuy (elfaudio/Arc/etc.) Mini, Alpine PDX, etc. Something that looked kind of like an old-school Art but was Class D, ~100x4/4Ω, and sized smaller than an Arc KS125.4 in every dimension would get my attention real fast...

Large amps are only going to work on the extreme low end (until they get too expensive to make, at least) or in the stupid end where people think they can hear differences between wires. And a PPI that does amps that are basically no more advanced than the ones they did in 1996 is just a name.


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> ADS and KEF are both dead, unfortunately. Let me ask you a question, and I am NOT picking on you, my friend...


Umm Grizz, KEF's far from dead. True, there's nothing in _car audio_ that's as good or interesting as the old Andrew Jones-designed KEF KAR 160Q's, and the experiment with licensing some KEF IP to Coustic for Rich Coe-designed product is long dead, but KEF has very much not gone the way of Generalissimo Francisco Franco!

KEF Global.



(And their 3" Uni-Q's look really interesting for car use. The 2" widebanders in the Ci50 are, unfortunately, not suited to the weather where I live, or life in an open roadster, or both.)



Grizz Archer said:


> Heck, do not take my word for it, just wait a few more months and go hear one for yourself with your favorite SQ tracks...


C'mon Grizz. You know that unless they suck they're going to sound just like every other competently-designed, nonbroken amplifier of similar power out there. Amps are commodity parts. So one doesn't "hear" them.


----------



## rexroadj

ok now I am slightly off board.........only because of personal opinion though! (amp sounds etc.....) I know your stance and have read many of your posts about it. Your clearly not and idiot and know your ****, I just believe differently is all, based on my experiences. 

and unless I missed something on the kef website..........as far as car specific products go (which I am pretty sure he was refering to).......They are dead?


----------



## DS-21

rexroadj said:


> ok now I am slightly off board.........only because of personal opinion though! (amp sounds etc.....)


Amp "sound" being nonexistent is no more a "personal opinion" than the "germ theory of disease" or the "roundness of the earth" are personal opinions. Yes, there may still exist people who still think that AIDS is caused by dudes liking dudes, or who think the earth is flat. Thinking people know that people holding such beliefs are either willfully stupid or mentally defective.

Here, either one understands the scholarship on audio electronics audibility, one doesn't, or one has such incredible hearing that s/he should be consulting for the cellphone industry, audio industry, DARPA, etc., to the tune of at least high four-figures per hour. Suffice it to say that the third category doesn't exist, except for purposes of parody.



rexroadj said:


> and unless I missed something on the kef website..........as far as car specific products go (which I am pretty sure he was refering to).......They are dead?


KEF KAR is gone, yes. I addressed that in my post, supra. KEF is not, however. a/d/s/, by contrast, is gone.


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> Umm Grizz, KEF's far from dead. True, there's nothing in _car audio_ that's as good or interesting as the old Andrew Jones-designed KEF KAR 160Q's, and the experiment with licensing some KEF IP to Coustic for Rich Coe-designed product is long dead, but KEF has very much not gone the way of Generalissimo Francisco Franco!
> 
> KEF Global.
> 
> 
> 
> (And their 3" Uni-Q's look really interesting for car use. The 2" widebanders in the Ci50 are, unfortunately, not suited to the weather where I live, or life in an open roadster, or both.)
> 
> C'mon Grizz. You know that unless they suck they're going to sound just like every other competently-designed, nonbroken amplifier of similar power out there. Amps are commodity parts. So one doesn't "hear" them.


My bad, I was only talking about Kef Kar,not the home which I respect fully. Hmmm, I have been reading your posts. You obviously know your poop! I will agree with you for the most part with you key word being "competently-designed". Isn't the level of competency subjective. I surely think it is. And while when talking to 95% of people, I can argue that they could never hear a difference, some people can. If there was not difference, thenthere would be no audiophile in home audio with TONS of different types of amplifers from Class A/B to tube, to even a true class A. I assume that you are one of those people that can hear a difference between a solid state amplifier vs a tube amp. So while I agree with you 95%, you know therer is a difference for those who care enough to hear it. For instance, in Japan there really is no SPL industry. In fact, we only sell Reference and Human Reign with a bit of Stealth for it's small size. All they care about is awesome SQ and their Carozzeria head units. We recently sent them a set of our new PPI 3-way components and a Power Class amplifier. I was shocked on Tuesday when i got an email stating that he heard a difference in the amps. Both do have the same rectifiers and output devices, but one took longer to sound good as it warmed it. It was the one with 2x the devices. He was exactly right. I feel pretty confident that a guy like you would hear the difference as well...


----------



## Grizz Archer

AudioDave said:


> Not trying to bust your balls but who are you?
> 
> In 2011 when they are released, the Art series will as I been told by PPI as well as the rep here they will be damn close to the originals. They are not even comparable to PC line? Also been told they will not be made overseas like the other lines.
> 
> As for the stament about sedona amps outselling, if you base that on a cost only point maybe. If you have dealers like me who can sell I disagree. Afterall, if you really know PPI history esp the Art, you know then they were the #1 car audio items sold for several years....and people paid what they cost. And for when DEI had it, it was undeniably the worst. Slowly over time, they are destroying Orion as well. PPI Was great when it was PPI. Once the asian market got in and it was all changed to sell quantity and not quality, these names were destroyed. Period. Anyone who knows also the diff in the PC and the Art designs and boards knows they are night and day. I just hope that the Art isnt just to bring them back, because that is where the true PPI Art lover will rest, in the past. I once again, have been considering carrying it again. But when I get my piece to audition, I promise you it will be tested as hard as we tested the original M stuff and the Art in Phoenix when we got those.
> 
> As for what you said about Soundstream Human Reign, people do buy high end. The PPI DCX system was $2500.00 when it came out, Rockford Syymetry was $2000.00, Dr. Crankenstein amps were $3000.00 and on back order....and so on. You can even compare stuff like that. Old School rule of thumb was a $1.00 a watt, and you "absolutly" got what you paid for - "state of the art." People paid it before, they will again - If its comparable.
> 
> I have had many talks with Kevin about this very thing. Ask him about out talk about DAC costs - If you work there you know who he is. Like I said to him, we will know when these brands are once again great - when the other companies *buy them from us instead of us buying from them*.


No offens taken buddy. I am the speaker engineer for PPI, Soundstream and our other brands. I am NOT the amplifier engineer - I only design the preamp section... You got some bad information so pleae tell me who here told you that so I can go smack the **** out of them. The art aesthetics are a slightly skeded version of the original, still with the geometric shapes, but in all black and copper colors. I love them! They will not be as high end as the Power Class, but they are not going to be a typical mid level amp either. They will have an awesome preamp section, balanced line inputs, and be up to par with what people expect. Made in the USA? I wish, but nobody would but it because the cost would be astronomical. Hell the only thing we make in the US anymore is bad cars and a few people now and then... LOL

As for the Sedona, you are correct, I was referring to the price point. There are stilla few guys like you that can sell high end equipment, but lets face it, most shops these days are more like factories. I wish we had more guys like you that push high end products. And yes, I remember the history of PPI quite well. I am not nearly and young and handsome as I sound. Actually, I am a 40-something year-old beer-drinking Irish audio junkie that has been in the industry for 27 years. Trust me, I feel ya...

If you are going to audition PPI and plan on carrying it, you need to talk to the rep soon. I do not know where you are and how saturated the market is, but PPI dealers will limited and not oversaturated. You're welcome! ;^)

As for what you said about high end... When we make a batch of Human Reign, it takes us 2 years to sell through it. $1.00 a watt. Hell that was somewhat recent. I was paying $6-$9 a watt. Do you remember how much a PPI Pro Mos 25 was? Or an original Punch 45? I cannot think of a a single 25 or 50 watt amp that costs hundreds of dollars today. ALot of this is due to competition of manufacturers, being forced to go to Asia and and f&$%ing internet whore. You know this as well as I do. The fact is that the stores were better and more profitable in the dman 80s and into the 90s! They were class acts. Sounds like you somehow retained those values. I totally respect that...

Of course I know Kevin, He is sitting 5' from me right now. He is our tech guy and is a DAC fanatic.


----------



## Thoraudio

I'm getting a Malware notification from Google Chrome when I try to open precisionpower.com, your guys may want to do something about that.


----------



## PPI_GUY

I swapped out a 100 watt, two channel PPI Mosfet Power series amp in my daily driver just over 2 months ago. I replaced it with a 100 watt, two channel PPI Pro Mos 50 amp. The difference was stunning! More impact, more dynamic transition from quiet to loud passages. Both amps are/were seeing a 2 ohm stereo load. Both gains are set nearly dead-on identical. No other changes were made to the system. 
Now, I am perfectly willing to accept that there may have been some degradation in the circuitry of that amp I replaced. But, please remember that both amps are 20 years old, 100% made in the USA and built like tanks. The only difference is that the Pro Mos was designed to accept 1 ohm stereo and 2 ohm mono loads where the other amp isn't stable at those levels.
The audible difference is there.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Oh, and my choice of Queensryche from Empire for any demo disc would be "Della Brown".


----------



## benny

Thoraudio said:


> I'm getting a Malware notification from Google Chrome when I try to open precisionpower.com, your guys may want to do something about that.


Still?

I had that problem a month ago! Slackers.


----------



## jonnyanalog

DS-21 said:


> Moreover, anecdotally at least, in my area the Ax ones were hard to find at the time. Special order, at MSRP, only. (HiFi Buys was a large local dealer. Rob Hephner was a rep in my local store at the time.) I wanted an Ax404, but because I couldn't get one for less than MSRP I ended up at the time getting the A404.2 and an AudioControl 24XS.
> 
> And Googling "PPI Ax404.2" yielded no hits for actual amps (a few "plug kits") so I'm inclined to believe my memory that there was no Ax404.2, so just the Ax404 and Ax606.2 for Arts with crossovers built in. And that makes sense. Often audio companies don't update niche products as often as their mainstream stuff. For example, Adcom kept their four-channel GFA-2535 in the lineup long after the amp on which it was based had gone from GFA-535 to GFA-535II to whatever the four-digit version was.
> 
> On another topic, new PPI will be totally uninteresting to me unless they join the modern age and come up with amps that compete with the Jello XD and HD, Ubuy (elfaudio/Arc/etc.) Mini, Alpine PDX, etc. Something that looked kind of like an old-school Art but was Class D, ~100x4/4Ω, and sized smaller than an Arc KS125.4 in every dimension would get my attention real fast...
> 
> Large amps are only going to work on the extreme low end (until they get too expensive to make, at least) or in the stupid end where people think they can hear differences between wires. And a PPI that does amps that are basically no more advanced than the ones they did in 1996 is just a name.


Just for clarification its the Ax400 not the Ax404. The Ax400 was not produced in the .2 series.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Thoraudio said:


> I'm getting a Malware notification from Google Chrome when I try to open precisionpower.com, your guys may want to do something about that.


We think it is bogus and are working on it. Not sure what that crap is all about. Sorry!


----------



## ryan s

benny said:


> Still?
> 
> I had that problem a month ago! Slackers.





Grizz Archer said:


> We think it is bogus and are working on it. Not sure what that crap is all about. Sorry!


I never had a problem with it until yesterday...then the warnings popped up.


----------



## AudioDave

jonnyanalog said:


> Just for clarification its the Ax400 not the Ax404. The Ax400 was not produced in the .2 series.


Typo sorry


----------



## AudioDave

DS-21 said:


> Most of them did not have xovers built in. In fact, every Art that did not have an "X" in the model number was just a simple gain block. And to my knowledge there were only two of Art Series "X" models: Ax404 and Ax606.2. I don't think there was even an Ax404.2, but I could be wrong on that; I know there wasn't a pre-".2" Ax606.
> 
> That means every A100, A200, A204, A300, A404, A600, and A1200 (as well as the .2 evolutions thereof) lacked crossovers or other features. And none of those were "cheater" amps. Only the ProMOS line were. (And the "sub" channels of the Ax606.2.) The rest were honestly rated and designed for normal use.
> 
> Furthermore, one typically doesn't consider the 5075DX an "art series," even though it had graphics on the front. It had a conventional box-with-fins chassis rather than the Art Series chassis.
> 
> Lastly, if "PPI" told you something, chances are your "who are you" would not have been a question...



Im aware not all are ....jesus. I said the 5075 because it was very popular, expensive and paired with the DCX system which was art - I have 2 of em.


----------



## AudioDave

Grizz Archer said:


> No offens taken buddy. I am the speaker engineer for PPI, Soundstream and our other brands. I am NOT the amplifier engineer - I only design the preamp section... You got some bad information so pleae tell me who here told you that so I can go smack the **** out of them. The art aesthetics are a slightly skeded version of the original, still with the geometric shapes, but in all black and copper colors. I love them! They will not be as high end as the Power Class, but they are not going to be a typical mid level amp either. They will have an awesome preamp section, balanced line inputs, and be up to par with what people expect. Made in the USA? I wish, but nobody would but it because the cost would be astronomical. Hell the only thing we make in the US anymore is bad cars and a few people now and then... LOL
> 
> As for the Sedona, you are correct, I was referring to the price point. There are stilla few guys like you that can sell high end equipment, but lets face it, most shops these days are more like factories. I wish we had more guys like you that push high end products. And yes, I remember the history of PPI quite well. I am not nearly and young and handsome as I sound. Actually, I am a 40-something year-old beer-drinking Irish audio junkie that has been in the industry for 27 years. Trust me, I feel ya...
> 
> If you are going to audition PPI and plan on carrying it, you need to talk to the rep soon. I do not know where you are and how saturated the market is, but PPI dealers will limited and not oversaturated. You're welcome! ;^)
> 
> As for what you said about high end... When we make a batch of Human Reign, it takes us 2 years to sell through it. $1.00 a watt. Hell that was somewhat recent. I was paying $6-$9 a watt. Do you remember how much a PPI Pro Mos 25 was? Or an original Punch 45? I cannot think of a a single 25 or 50 watt amp that costs hundreds of dollars today. ALot of this is due to competition of manufacturers, being forced to go to Asia and and f&$%ing internet whore. You know this as well as I do. The fact is that the stores were better and more profitable in the dman 80s and into the 90s! They were class acts. Sounds like you somehow retained those values. I totally respect that...
> 
> Of course I know Kevin, He is sitting 5' from me right now. He is our tech guy and is a DAC fanatic.


LOL ok its all good my friend.. Yes I was a dealer, heres a link to an origional dealer retail sheet...

http://narbi.free.fr/manuels/Amplis/Precision Power/prix publics PPI.pdf


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> Isn't the level of competency subjective.


Honestly, no. There are known differences of given measurements that lead to just noticeable differences (JND's) in audio electronics. Most modern amps, even relatively cheap ones, measure way closer to one another than any JND.

There has yet to be a controlled subjective listening test of two amps that showed a difference, except tests where one of them was egregiously flawed.



Grizz Archer said:


> If there was not difference, thenthere would be no audiophile in home audio with TONS of different types of amplifers from Class A/B to tube, to even a true class A.


Let me change a few words and see if you don't cringe a little bit:

"If there was not difference, thenthere would be no audiophile in home audio with TONS of different types of RCA cables from copper to silver, to even battery-biased."

Clearly, there are people who actually believe that wires are actual "components" with "sound," so it's a fair substitution.

Obviously, the ability of marketing people to convince buyers of things that don't exist does not mean that the underlying thing has become true. That applies to amps as well as wires, digital sources, and so on.

I know that in the home world I've personally been able to not hear the difference between a "mid-fi" Adcom and a "High End" Classe, and that was on speakers with horrible impedance curves that should really showcase any existing differences (M-L electrostats). Then that same Adcom and a $250 Panasonic receiver using a digital chip DAC/amp were indistinguishable! (Though there are some speakers that would have made the two sound different, I believe. Something with poorly controlled impedance.) 

Likewise, I have a few full-range four-channel car amps floating around me right now: the aforementioned PPI A404.2, a JL 300/4, a JL HD600/4, a JL MHD900/5, a Planet Audio BB175.4B, an old Rockford POWER 300 MOSFET, and an Eclipse EA4200 (60Wx4, class D). Limiting output to the levels attainable by the weakest of the amps (A404.2 I'm going to guess), I have no confidence in my - or anyone else's! - ability to tell any two of them apart once levels are matched. Unless I'm looking at them, or trying to fit them somewhere. That's when the bloody expensive Jello HD's almost start to look like good values! 

I wish you guys well with PPI, but I'm not going to be paying attention until there's something really cutting edge. As I wrote before, a 4-channel, 100W/4Ω/channel Class D (or BASH or whatever, don't care about the means just the result) amp that looks like a scale model old-school Art Series (or goes in a different but equally cool direction) but is smaller than an Arc KS125.4 Mini, that's the kind of thing that IMO could make PPI relevant in the 21st century.



Grizz Archer said:


> I assume that you are one of those people that can hear a difference between a solid state amplifier vs a tube amp.


I have heard differences between badly-designed, badly built, or out-of-adjustment tube amps and solid state amps. (And I have seen some real doozies in "high end" home audio, such as conrad johnson gear with massive channel imbalances, and of course no balance control to fix it.) I cannot hear the difference between a well-designed and well-built tube amp (say, a Sonic Frontiers or McIntosh) that's properly adjusted and a nonbroken solid state amp capable of driving speakers to the same SPL. Because there are no such differences to hear. Both, within the limits of human hearing, are just straight wires with gain. 

IMO, the main advantage of tube amps is that they look cool. But, since I'm a guy who believes that music should be heard in the highest possible fidelity but that audio gear should be seen as minimally as possible, that's no great advantage in my view.


----------



## subwoofery

Guyz, cut him some slack. I just can't understand why people always flame on something they did not even get their hands on. 

A few examples are the SI BM mkIII and the JBL MS-8 - if we were to make a list of people talking crap about those products not being release (being vaporware), it would take ages (and be more than a 100 individuals). Talking crap over and over again before ending up BUYING the product and loving it (Yes, you know who I'm talking about ). 

Just wait for the amp to be released. Buy one (or find one that has it), listen and if you don't like it: SELL IT. 
That's the DIY spirit. 

I can understand the comments on the look though. Tastes and colors are different for everyone. 

That's all I had to say. 
Kelvin


----------



## AudioDave

DS-21 said:


> Honestly, no. There are known differences of given measurements that lead to just noticeable differences (JND's) in audio electronics. Most modern amps, even relatively cheap ones, measure way closer to one another than any JND.
> 
> There has yet to be a controlled subjective listening test of two amps that showed a difference, except tests where one of them was egregiously flawed.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me change a few words and see if you don't cringe a little bit:
> 
> "If there was not difference, thenthere would be no audiophile in home audio with TONS of different types of RCA cables from copper to silver, to even battery-biased."
> 
> Clearly, there are people who actually believe that wires are actual "components" with "sound," so it's a fair substitution.
> 
> Obviously, the ability of marketing people to convince buyers of things that don't exist does not mean that the underlying thing has become true. That applies to amps as well as wires, digital sources, and so on.
> 
> I know that in the home world I've personally been able to not hear the difference between a "mid-fi" Adcom and a "High End" Classe, and that was on speakers with horrible impedance curves that should really showcase any existing differences (M-L electrostats). Then that same Adcom and a $250 Panasonic receiver using a digital chip DAC/amp were indistinguishable! (Though there are some speakers that would have made the two sound different, I believe. Something with poorly controlled impedance.)
> 
> Likewise, I have a few full-range four-channel car amps floating around me right now: the aforementioned PPI A404.2, a JL 300/4, a JL HD600/4, a JL MHD900/5, a Planet Audio BB175.4B, an old Rockford POWER 300 MOSFET, and an Eclipse EA4200 (60Wx4, class D). Limiting output to the levels attainable by the weakest of the amps (A404.2 I'm going to guess), I have no confidence in my - or anyone else's! - ability to tell any two of them apart once levels are matched. Unless I'm looking at them, or trying to fit them somewhere. That's when the bloody expensive Jello HD's almost start to look like good values!
> 
> I wish you guys well with PPI, but I'm not going to be paying attention until there's something really cutting edge. As I wrote before, a 4-channel, 100W/4Ω/channel Class D (or BASH or whatever, don't care about the means just the result) amp that looks like a scale model old-school Art Series (or goes in a different but equally cool direction) but is smaller than an Arc KS125.4 Mini, that's the kind of thing that IMO could make PPI relevant in the 21st century.
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard differences between badly-designed, badly built, or out-of-adjustment tube amps and solid state amps. (And I have seen some real doozies in "high end" home audio, such as conrad johnson gear with massive channel imbalances, and of course no balance control to fix it.) I cannot hear the difference between a well-designed and well-built tube amp (say, a Sonic Frontiers or McIntosh) that's properly adjusted and a nonbroken solid state amp capable of driving speakers to the same SPL. Because there are no such differences to hear. Both, within the limits of human hearing, are just straight wires with gain.
> 
> IMO, the main advantage of tube amps is that they look cool. But, since I'm a guy who believes that music should be heard in the highest possible fidelity but that audio gear should be seen as minimally as possible, that's no great advantage in my view.


Man you need to just get off your high horse. You have taken this thread and made racial comments, hatred posts and flat out been rude. You did this on the other thread about Art PPI VS PC. Your comparables also are rediculous and far abstract like taking AB amps and discussing D or tube amps.. I said earlier go somewhere else and discuss apples vs oranges. I have designed amps both home car for over 20 years and I know what the hell I am talking about, and I know even more that this thread isnt about all that other crap.


----------



## DS-21

AudioDave said:


> Your comparables also are rediculous and far abstract like taking AB amps and discussing D or tube amps..


What, do Class AB amps do something different than Class D amps or tube amps (which you probably didn't notice that I wasn't the first person to bring up, because you're not too sharp with the details)? Aren't they all supposed to take an audio waveform and increase its magnitude?



AudioDave said:


> I said earlier go somewhere else and discuss apples vs oranges. I have designed amps both home car for over 20 years and I know what the hell I am talking about,


It would be nice if that knowledge were in evidence, but that just hasn't been the case so far as I've seen...

PS: Calling out someone else's bigotry (your apparent inability to imagine that Asians can make stuff of high quality) is not "making racial comments," but commenting on someone else's inexplicable inclusion of bigotry and jingoism into the conversation.


----------



## AudioDave

PS: Calling out someone else's bigotry (your apparent inability to imagine that Asians can make stuff of high quality) is not "making racial comments," but commenting on someone else's inexplicable inclusion of bigotry and jingoism into the conversation.[/QUOTE]

LOL whatever racist. I didnt say they couldnt make anything, but what they do make good we are not talking about here. Troll somewhere else.


----------



## DS-21

AudioDave said:


> I didnt say they couldnt make anything, but what they do make good we are not talking about here. Troll somewhere else.


Again with the overt racism!

You _seriously_ don't think that a modern factory located in Asia can make car audio amplifiers as well as any punks in Phoenix ever could've?


----------



## PPI_GUY

Enough with the freakin' 'race card' already! Too much hypersensitivity in this thread.

I believe an argument can be made that the products coming out of American amp & speaker companies in the 80's and early 90's were some of the finest examples of car audio we have seen to date. Linear Power, Orion, PPI, Rockford Fosgate and more made some damn good products. Products from that era are still in high demand today. Is it because they were overbuilt, durable or seem to just do what they do, really well? Probably alittle of all those qualities. 

Now, there are modern assembly techniques being utilized in Asia that allow for a very good product. I know JL Audio's 'E' Series amps were made in China and I assume similiar models still are now. Asian manufacturers continue to suffer from the stigma that developed during the late 90's/early 2000's when many American manufacturers were being bought up. At that time, to cut costs and improve profitability, alot of products were sourced from Asia and quality(reliability) suffered. Apparently, now that quality control is more in focus, alot of those old issues are going away. 

Perception is the 800lb gorilla in the room for any company that sources from anywhere other than the US. But, remember that alot of the reputation old school American made products have is because they truly were well made and in many cases are still purring right along today. That kind of performance creates loyalty that is tough to buy with shiney new products. All of this may change but, it won't be overnight.


----------



## ChrisB

PPI_GUY said:


> I believe an argument can be made that the products coming out of American amp & speaker companies in the 80's and early 90's were some of the finest examples of car audio we have seen to date. Linear Power, Orion, PPI, Rockford Fosgate and more made some damn good products. Products from that era are still in high demand today. Is it because they were overbuilt, durable or seem to just do what they do, really well? Probably alittle of all those qualities.


The reason some of those products are in high demand is because they are no longer manufactured and individuals are hitting their midlife crisis remembering the glory days. You know... Four touchdowns in one game, banging the head cheerleader, and having a 100 watt amp that performs just as well as the megawatt monsters of today perform.

Penn and Teller did an episode on nostalgia only to conclude that nostalgia is ********. I learned firsthand that the good old days weren't as good as I remembered them.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Whoa! Man, I made a simple comment to Dave and mentioned a tube amp and everybody goes psycho? Dave, this is why I do not norammly come on forums. A discussion is one thing, but the attitudes are unbearable...


----------



## DS-21

PPI_GUY said:


> I believe an argument can be made that the products coming out of American amp & speaker companies in the 80's and early 90's were some of the finest examples of car audio we have seen to date.


Not a good one, though. Yes, there were some interesting products, some of which have yet to be properly emulated. (The original PPI underhung dinnerplate subs come to mind.) But in truth most of that stuff is eclipsed by stuff today. 

The speakers, there's not even a question. American speakers from that age were quite primitive: no shorting rings in the motor, stamped baskets, cupped spiders, no under-spider ventilation, etc. The new stuff is simply going to be more linear and better-sounding when used by a competent person.

But now let's compare a good amp from that age vs. a good amp today of lesser cost, a PPI A404.2 and a JL HD600/4. (Nobody can accuse me of bias there, because I own both. Also, from what I understand some of the people behind the "old school" PPI's are now doing amps for Jello.) Inarguably, assuming that nothing in the PPI has aged to the point of degradation, they're going to sound the same, so as for sonics running old amps is no problem. But objectively the HD600/4 is simply a better amp in every respect. It's considerably more powerful. It's much smaller. It's more efficient. The built-in crossover is useful, albeit not as useful as the JL Slash amps' crossovers. And, in inflation-adjusted dollars at least (and possibly by any measure) the HD600/4 is cheaper, too. At least part of that, surely, is due to the "China price."



PPI_GUY said:


> Products from that era are still in high demand today. Is it because they were overbuilt, durable or seem to just do what they do, really well? Probably alittle of all those qualities.


I think ChrisB's explanation - nostalgia - is more apt.



PPI_GUY said:


> I know JL Audio's 'E' Series amps were made in China and I assume similiar models still are now.


I thought all of them were, including the HD's. But regardless, Jello has been making amps in _Asia_ since they started making amps. The first Slashes were made in Korea! 



PPI_GUY said:


> Asian manufacturers continue to suffer from the stigma that developed during the late 90's/early 2000's when many American manufacturers were being bought up. At that time, to cut costs and improve profitability, alot of products were sourced from Asia and quality(reliability) suffered.


That's just not true. What would be more accurate is that assholes like Darrell Issa started trying to scrimp on parts quality and so on to cynically cash in on the names he bought up, and Asian manufacturers believe in doing what the customer wants. Had DEI and others wanted quality, they could've gotten it. Exhibit A there is the JL Slash line, which was both Asian made in the time period you mention and of very high quality from the beginning. (OK, the set screws in the beginning were a bit soft, but they fixed that issue quickly.)

So the bottom line is that it's an American executive problem, not an Asian manufacturer problem.



PPI_GUY said:


> Perception is the 800lb gorilla in the room for any company that sources from anywhere other than the US.


So English-made Genesis or Italian-made Audison is ****? Very interesting. And in truth, most people don't care where something's made. Because they understand that this is the year 2010.



PPI_GUY said:


> But, remember that alot of the reputation old school American made products have is because they truly were well made and in many cases are still purring right along today.


Honestly, that doesn't say much. This kind of stuff either breaks in the first few minutes, due to incompetent install/usage, or in decades when parts start to fail.


----------



## PPI_GUY

DS-21;

Your opinion is one thing but, confusing opinion and fact is where you loose alot of readers.

1. Speakers...on the whole...are much better today but, you still have people who swear by the original Cerwin-Vega! Strokers or first Kicker Competition Series. Those people might be in a mid-life crisis or they may not. You would have to ask them about that.
With your PPI Art and JL HD600/4 comparison, you are not pitting apples against oranges. The PPI was an A/B design, the JL a full-range Class D and the latter has only become available in the last few months. So, basically it has taken 15-18 years to make the technological leap from A/B to full-range Class D. In that time, quality old school amps have been building a legacy and must be for some other reason than "I owned one in high school!"
I am also fairly certain the HD amps are NOT built in China but, I could be wrong there.

2. It doesn't matter who ordered what part. All people saw was "Made In ____" on the chassis. As I said, perception becomes reality leading to the stigma that amps made in Asia were of inferior quality (totally accurate) and used poor quality control. Poor parts probably contributing to that as well.

3. Lets not get into semantics regarding boutique amp manufacturers such as Genesis, Audison, etc. By all evidence those amps are handmade using the best parts and their price reflects that. Do you think Genesis would enjoy it's 'elite' status if all it's products were made in China? No way. 

4. This is 2010, we agree on that. People want their money to go farther and they want to buy a quality product. The old stigma of 'Made In China' remains pervasive in many parts of the world. I have no doubt that the Chinese 'could' probably produce anything they wanted, and of very good quality. But, the fact remains that alot of products (not just electronics) that are imported are of poor fit and assembly or just good enough to pass inspection. 

5. Finally, this 'our stuff vs. their stuff' argument isn't limited to car audio. I am also into drag racing and the market has recently been flooded with absolute junk parts made and/or machined in China. In many cases, the original American designed and patented parts were copied and duplicated using inferior materials and next to zero quality control. The manufacturers of this stuff are all foreign and they import it into the US by offering enormous profit margins for sellers of look-alike parts. American parts companies have had to literally create entire dept's to deal with patent infringement and copyright protection. Now, some of the blame rests with those who buy the knock-off stuff but, the Chinese do in fact make and market junk products and not all of it is at the direction of bad Americans. 

p.s. can we get back to discussing the new PPI amps, please?


----------



## DS-21

PPI_GUY said:


> 1. Speakers...on the whole...are much better today but, you still have people who swear by the original Cerwin-Vega! Strokers or first Kicker Competition Series. Those people might be in a mid-life crisis or they may not. You would have to ask them about that.


In terms of objective performance, the Strokers were excellent, the Kickers average, for their time. By the standards of stuff marketed for car-fi, the Strokers are still pretty good. (I'd rather run one than, say, an IDMAX.) But compared to the sum total of what's easily available today, they're nothing special either. People may "swear by them," but that doesn't mean anything. People "swear" by Bose too, after all. Chances are, many of the people who "swear by them" have never heard a Peerless, Dayton Reference, B&C, etc. of similar size and stroke.



PPI_GUY said:


> With your PPI Art and JL HD600/4 comparison, you are not pitting apples against oranges.


Correct. Two products that perform the exact same task are not different types of fruit, they are the same fruit. 



PPI_GUY said:


> The PPI was an A/B design, the JL a full-range Class D and the latter has only become available in the last few months. So, basically it has taken 15-18 years to make the technological leap from A/B to full-range Class D.


Just not true. There were full-range Class D amps waaay before the HD's. Infinity had some that were around when the Arts were new products. In the last few years, there have been Class D amps from Eclipse, Alpine, Pioneer, Kenwood, Blaupunkt, Infinity, Planet Audio, Lanzar, and others. In fact, the closest modern comparison to an A404.2 might be the Eclipse EA4200. Marginally more power as a 4-channel, marginally less as a 2-channel, more features, and much smaller. And currently available for under 130 USD.

Now, just because they've been out there, that doesn't mean car-fi companies made them. (I complained about the paucity of modern amps when I got back into car-fi back in 2004 on the carsound forum.) Despite the growing availability of such amps in pro and home audio, car-fi companies stayed conservative. They didn't think people would buy them, or perhaps more apt they didn't believe their dealers sophisticated enough to sell something that was smaller and more expensive than the previous generation amp. My theory is that it took the oil shocks of the late Bush epoch to shake them out of their complacence and develop modern small and efficient amplifiers.



PPI_GUY said:


> I am also fairly certain the HD amps are NOT built in China but, I could be wrong there.


I am entirely certain you are wrong there. I happen to have my HD600/4 right here, because I'm considering selling my MHD900/5 in favor of running the HD600/4 along with my Planet Audio BB175.4 instead. (It will either be that, or sell the HD600/4.) The bottom sticker clearly says "Made in China" on it. Likewise, while I'm not going to take it out to look at it, I am confident the MHD900/5 is made there as well, given that its manual was printer there.



PPI_GUY said:


> 2. It doesn't matter who ordered what part. All people saw was "Made In ____" on the chassis. As I said, perception becomes reality leading to the stigma that amps made in Asia were of inferior quality (totally accurate) and used poor quality control.


Perception doesn't become reality if the underlying facts are untrue. And just because the average car-fi customer isn't sophisticated enough to realize that soldering and bolting together audio amps is a basic task that can be adequately performed absolutely anywhere on the globe, that does not give them the right to be bigots. 



PPI_GUY said:


> 3. Lets not get into semantics regarding boutique amp manufacturers such as Genesis, Audison, etc.


I'm just going by what you wrote.



PPI_GUY said:


> By all evidence those amps are handmade using the best parts and their price reflects that.


If that were true, the price should be lower. After all, these types of tasks are much likely to be performed erroneously by a single person than by an assembly-line. So rationally, handwork should be discounted relative to mass production in the making of amplifiers. It's not like we're talking about suits or shoes, areas where handwork sometimes results in objective superiority to machine work.

And "best parts..." who the hell makes that determination? Besides the marketers trying to sell them, that is.



PPI_GUY said:


> Do you think Genesis would enjoy it's 'elite' status if all it's products were made in China? No way.


Why not? It's all based on advertising and price point. Tru built a so-called elite reputation by rebadging amps from a Korean OEM and selling them at a markup much higher than the same amps claimed anywhere else in the world. Likewise, Arc built its reputation by marking up Ubuy product to "high end" prices.



PPI_GUY said:


> 'could' probably produce anything they wanted, and of very good quality. But, the fact remains that alot of products (not just electronics) that are imported are of poor fit and assembly or just good enough to pass inspection.


As if that's any different from here or anywhere else! Have you ever looked at the quality of a Detroit-made car or a 1990s German-made VW, for instance? Quality in production comes from good design, and managers willing to spend some money on procedures to create it. Geography has nothing at all to do with it.



PPI_GUY said:


> 5. Finally, this 'our stuff vs. their stuff' argument isn't limited to car audio. I am also into drag racing


Talk about another area absolutely infected with bigotry, jingoism, and xenophobia...


----------



## PPI_GUY

Wow. I guess it is impossible to have a discussion with you DS-21. 
According to you, foreign manufacturers are building car audio equipment today that is of equal (or BETTER) quality to anything that has EVER been produced domestically in the US. That is YOUR opinion but, you treat it as a fact. Anyone who disagree's with you is a racist, bigot or xenophobe. 
And for some yet to be revealed reason, drag racers are even worse than car audio enthusiasts. Since I enjoy both hobbies, I can only imagine that you see me as the devil. Whatever. No more wasted time on you or this thread. Besides, I need to go sharpen my pitchfork.


----------



## DS-21

PPI_GUY said:


> According to you, foreign manufacturers are building car audio equipment today that is of equal (or BETTER) quality to anything that has EVER been produced domestically in the US.


Actually, that's a distortion of my viewpoint. My viewpoint is that amps today are objectively better* because they're smaller, more power-dense, cheaper, and have more features, while sounding exactly the same as any other competently designed, nonbroken amp from any era.

*not better _quality,_ necessarily in the since of long-term performance, simply because one can't know for sure how long something will last when it's not been around long. One thing that is true, and may make a difference for some people, is that modern stuff is occasionally less repairable, due to more sophisticated and efficient production processes. Some of the old-school stuff can (and was!) made by people taking home parts and doing them as piecework on their kitchen tables, so they can accordingly be repaired by anyone with similar basic competence for as long as component parts similar to those originally used remain available.



PPI_GUY said:


> Anyone who disagree's with you is a racist, bigot or xenophobe.


If someone _a priori_ determines the quality of a given thing based solely on its country of origin, and assigns lesser quality to something made in a different country than one's home country, then yes, that is bigoted, jingoistic and xenophobic *by the definition of those words!* 

If that country's majority is a different race than one's home country's majority, then a racial bias component may be inferred as well.

Oh, and for the record I have no doubt that great modern audio equipment equal to anything made in China can be built here in the US, or Germany, Argentina, or Burkina Faso, or Uzbekistan, etc. (For the US, I'm assuming there are enough components made in the US to meet the FTC regulations for "made in the USA" labeling.) On objective standards it will likely not be worth the price premium for such a thing to be produced in a Western country. Sound, reliability, etc. should be no different regardless of where the thing is produced. Some people may value the "made in the USA" or "made in Germany," etc. label enough to make such amps subjectively worth it to them personally. But I think companies' experience shows that there are many more people willing to claim to value that label than actually demonstrate that preference through their purchasing habits.


----------



## ChrisB

But what kind of quality control testing did they have in the late 80s or early 90s. I'd be willing to bet that quality was ALL OVER the place with individuals hand soldering electronic circuit boards compared to a modern day machine that places and solders the components into place. 

In fact, I remember having to repair bad solder joints on a number of "Made in the USA" amplifiers when I used to DJ. It used to scare the ever living hell out of me every time I had to pop a Peavey amplifier open after I watched my cousin weld his insulated screwdriver to the transformer while repairing one of his. One wrong move inside one of those high voltage beasts could be your last!


----------



## W8 a minute

ChrisB said:


> It used to scare the ever living hell out of me every time I had to pop a Peavey amplifier open after I watched my cousin weld his insulated screwdriver to the transformer while repairing one of his. One wrong move inside one of those high voltage beasts could be your last!


Call me crazy if ya want but I would probably unplug electronic equipment before I repaired it. I usually shut off my engine before replacing the fan belt also.


----------



## ChrisB

W8 a minute said:


> Call me crazy if ya want but I would probably unplug electronic equipment before I repaired it. I usually shut off my engine before replacing the fan belt also.


It WAS unplugged. That is how much of a wallop the capacitors store!


----------



## 86mr2

PPI_GUY said:


> Wow. I guess it is impossible to have a discussion with you DS-21.


Actually, it is ridiculously easy to have a discussion with DS-21. The devilishly difficult part is winning one.


----------



## MiniVanMan

86mr2 said:


> Actually, it is ridiculously easy to have a discussion with DS-21. The devilishly difficult part is winning one.


No, the hardest part for most that I've noticed is even comprehending what he's saying. I mean, he uses A LOT of big words. I think he makes them up. I mean, WTF is "jingoistic"? I guess I could look it up and verify that it's not a word, but I'll just work off of assumptions and call him names in defense.

Since I'm too ignorant to not say comments that actually prove that I am indeed a walking, talking definition of said big words, I can easily win any discussion/argument by calling him stupid and saying I have nothing further to discuss. 

"Xenophobic". **** that. There are two words in the English language starting with "X". X-ray and xylophone. Again, making words up.


----------



## gitmobass

This is how I think this thread should have gone:
"Hey, I guess PPI is making a return under different ownership"

"Well that's cool, hopefully they'll be good."


----------



## 86mr2

Wow, first Rudeboy and now DS-21 are making big words up? What is this world coming to? I'm betting you make up all that crossover hocus-pocus too.


----------



## sam3535

86mr2 said:


> Wow, first Rudeboy and now DS-21 are making big words up? What is this world coming to? I'm betting you make up all that crossover hocus-pocus too.


jingoistic plasticizer = PPI essque


----------



## rexroadj

I dont think it is a matter of DS-21 using large words or knowing or not knowing his poop (depending on said poop) but just the fact that he cant just say something informative or subjective without coming across as the worlds largest *******! Try a little tact when you say something and maybe people will actually listen and or learn. No one started off rude with you? I stated earlier that I had different personal oppinions and you went off like a complete ass? wtf? You can feel however you like about certain things. What I said I believe as much as you believe the opposite. Thats life! You live and die by the test bench or data theory and I am more of a what does it do in real life scenereo. My results do differ then what you preach. I am not saying your right or that I am. But in my truck with my testing I notice pretty large differences in a lot of amps. Maybe I do have insane hearing? I do have 20/10 vision! Or perhaps your hearing is not so great? Maybe your deaf as a ****ing door nail? You have knowledge, use to help if your going to bother typing, otherwise your just going to turn away anyone on here that is looking to learn!
Just my take on it.......GO PPI!!!!

awww **** it.....who even cares at this point its 2 pages of content and 18 of absolute BS!!


----------



## 86mr2

Whitespace is your friend.


----------



## Torquem

86mr2 said:


> Whitespace is your friend.


whoa.... whitespace? What does being white have to do with it? ..... You think that because I'm white I have a little penis or something? Well sir, let me tell you.... its freaking HUUUU.... average.


----------



## AudioDave

Grizz Archer said:


> Whoa! Man, I made a simple comment to Dave and mentioned a tube amp and everybody goes psycho? Dave, this is why I do not norammly come on forums. A discussion is one thing, but the attitudes are unbearable...


LOL yep just what I told you in the PM. Seems tho mr 21 is getting it back from everyone too, I am done with him. I am about done here too,,,, guess if they knew who I was, it would be different? Anyways I got your pm back I will call you sometime.


----------



## DS-21

rexroadj said:


> IMy results do differ then what you preach. I am not saying your right or that I am. But in my truck with my testing I notice pretty large differences in a lot of amps.


That probably just means that you're not doing a valid subjective listening evaluation. Assuming arguendo that you are listening for _difference_ rather than blithely assuming difference a priori and listening for "improvement:" 

Are you matching levels to within 0.1dB throughout the passband of the amp and a little beyond? 
Do you know which one's playing?

Not doing the former means that what you're hearing is, more likely than not, an actual audible difference, but that difference is merely a difference in level. (Could be an FR difference, admittedly, but competent non-broken amps have flat FR within the audible range without processing engaged.)

Not doing the latter means that a large part of what you're "hearing" is just placebo effect generated by expectations of a sonic difference.

Not doing either means that the whole thing is just one big ****-up and not worth a goddamn thing to anyone else, though you may get the psychological satisfaction of thinking that you picked the "best sounding" among things that actually don't differ.

The only differences between amps that one should be inclined to accept at face value are claims of noise. Those, of course, could be related to install, etc. But noise floor is a real, audible phenomenon that can be a difference between two amps. Also, it seems that some designs either reject or otherwise handle environmental noise better than others.



AudioDave said:


> guess if they knew who I was, it would be different?


Nope. Claimed authority can't make up for simple incorrectness. You could be ****ing Nelson Pass and that wouldn't make what you've written valid.


----------



## MiniVanMan

AudioDave said:


> I am about done here too,,,, guess if they knew who I was, it would be different?


Really?? Well, why don't you enlighten us as to who you are. I'm sure, once we knew who you were, everything you said from that point on would wow us to no end, and we would all grovel at your feet.


----------



## 86mr2

AudioDave said:


> guess if they knew who I was, it would be different?


I kinda doubt it. I already have a pretty good idea _what _you are. A salesman.


----------



## AudioDave

Nope. Claimed authority can't make up for simple incorrectness. You could be ****ing Nelson Pass and that wouldn't make what you've written valid.[/QUOTE]

Your a moron dude and everyone knows it. Go troll elsewhere.


----------



## AudioDave

86mr2 said:


> I kinda doubt it. I already have a pretty good idea _what _you are. A salesman.


lol ok.


----------



## AudioDave

MiniVanMan said:


> Really?? Well, why don't you enlighten us as to who you are. I'm sure, once we knew who you were, everything you said from that point on would wow us to no end, and we would all grovel at your feet.


Due time my friend perhaps. Untill then keep talking to Grizz.


----------



## chad

this thread delivers


----------



## ryan s

Here you go Chad...right click, save as...use freely


----------



## wdemetrius1

LOL!!!!! That's funny.


----------



## AudioDave

LOL typical UPS lmao.


----------



## ca90ss

AudioDave said:


> stament ... Afterall ... Syymetry ... absolutly





AudioDave said:


> origional





AudioDave said:


> *Your* a moron dude and everyone knows it. Go troll elsewhere.


Maybe you should think twice before calling someone else a moron.


----------



## AudioDave

ca90ss said:


> Maybe you should think twice before calling someone else a moron.


lol I thought 4 times about it. Spelling means he isn't one like you are? 

Point is still valid even if it wasn't spelled right.


----------



## benny

86mr2 said:


> I kinda doubt it. I already have a pretty good idea _what _you are. A salesman.


Don't forget douchebag.


----------



## ChrisB

AudioDave said:


> guess if they knew who I was, it would be different?


Found you: AudioDaves 1996 Blazer


----------



## 86mr2

ChrisB said:


> Found you: AudioDaves 1996 Blazer


Makin' friends wherever he goes.


----------



## AAAAAAA

On the other hand, ths PC subs look really nice and unique without the over the top strange look.










Nice stitching and cone\spider.


----------



## ChrisB

86mr2 said:


> Makin' friends wherever he goes.


I'm still not ready to bow down and grovel at his feet...


----------



## Thoraudio

MiniVanMan said:


> No, the hardest part for most that I've noticed is even comprehending what he's saying. I mean, he uses A LOT of big words. I think he makes them up. I mean, WTF is "jingoistic"? I guess I could look it up and verify that it's not a word, but I'll just work off of assumptions and call him names in defense.
> 
> Since I'm too ignorant to not say comments that actually prove that I am indeed a walking, talking definition of said big words, I can easily win any discussion/argument by calling him stupid and saying I have nothing further to discuss.
> 
> "Xenophobic". **** that. There are two words in the English language starting with "X". X-ray and xylophone. Again, making words up.


His (DS's) logorrhea has actually improved over the years....


----------



## AudioDave

86mr2 said:


> Makin' friends wherever he goes.


lol yep see other posts - im not the problem here


----------



## AudioDave

ChrisB said:


> I'm still not ready to bow down and grovel at his feet...


Didnt ask you to


----------



## 86mr2

AudioDave said:


> lol yep see other posts - im not the problem here


And irony _continues _to be lost on Americans.


----------



## AudioDave

86mr2 said:


> And irony _continues _to be lost on Americans.


Only because cannucks cant decipher true english


----------



## 86mr2

Umm, yeah, that's it.


----------



## Torquem

Canadians cannot master the english language because they have floppy heads.


----------



## jbowers

86mr2 said:


> And irony _continues _to be lost on Americans.


I'm aboot fed up with generalizations about Americans


----------



## AudioDave

Im about done on this thread. When I said before if they knew who I was I mean who and what I did in this industry.


----------



## Knobby Digital

AudioDave said:


> I mean *who and what I did* in this industry.


Just lay it out then.


Who'd you do?


----------



## sam3535

Knobby Digital said:


> Just lay it out then.
> 
> 
> Who'd you do?


x eleventybillionz:laugh:

Is this you?









^^^credit to m-dub


----------



## Knobby Digital

I'm late to the game, but bump this for this!!!



ChrisB said:


> Found you: AudioDaves 1996 Blazer


Guess we now know who you've ****ed in the industry. :laugh:


----------



## AudioDave

Knobby Digital said:


> Just lay it out then.
> 
> 
> Who'd you do?


dude get a life. Noone cares on here what you have to say.


----------



## Knobby Digital

You wouldn't be saying that if you saw some of my installs.


----------



## AudioDave

Knobby Digital said:


> You wouldn't be saying that if you saw some of my installs.


Great lets see some newb. Till then stfu.


----------



## Knobby Digital

AudioDave said:


> Great lets see some newb. Till then stfu.


Great lets see some newb. Till then stfu.


----------



## emperorjj1

how long are you guys gonna keep on the whole my dick is bigger then yours conversation here?

How about this, you guys are both super awesome and number 1.... ****TARDS on here.

There you go best and worst everyone wins and looses at the same time so you guys can shut the **** up now


----------



## Knobby Digital

emperorjj1 said:


> how long are you guys gonna keep on the whole my dick is bigger then yours conversation here?
> 
> How about this, you guys are both super awesome and number 1.... ****TARDS on here.
> 
> There you go best and worst everyone wins and looses at the same time so you guys can shut the **** up now


This is my best work.


----------



## rc10mike

I run the old PPI Art Series, not only because they are the best, but also because I have a huge penis.

/useful post


----------



## AudioDave

lol please


----------



## AudioDave

emperorjj1 said:


> how long are you guys gonna keep on the whole my dick is bigger then yours conversation here?
> 
> How about this, you guys are both super awesome and number 1.... ****TARDS on here.
> 
> There you go best and worst everyone wins and looses at the same time so you guys can shut the **** up now


lol time for bed I hear mommy callin ya


----------



## benny

Click me for LULZ


----------



## MACS




----------



## ryan s

Could someone pass the aloe lotion?

I can feel the burn all the way over here :curtain:


----------



## wdemetrius1

Can we please get the tread back on track. This **** is wack!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ChrisB

If we only knew who AudioDave really was..... If we only knew...


----------



## JAX

ChrisB said:


> If we only knew who AudioDave really was..... If we only knew...



dont care..I am more concerned with the topic..plz


----------



## AudioDave

lol no doubt


----------



## ChrisB

JAX said:


> dont care..I am more concerned with the topic..plz


Well, you'll just have to wait like the rest of us for the new Art series.


----------



## rexroadj

I dont know why people are so concerned with the art series....Its been said several times (by Grizz and others) that the power class is there flagship NOT the art! People seriously need to let the whole "name" thing GO!


----------



## AudioDave

rexroadj said:


> I dont know why people are so concerned with the art series....Its been said several times (by Grizz and others) that the power class is there flagship NOT the art! People seriously need to let the whole "name" thing GO!


Ummm you didnt understand the post. 

(to Chris) Also on the Art series, that is when and how you will find out who I am  I cant say anymore.


----------



## AudioDave

ChrisB said:


> Well, you'll just have to wait like the rest of us for the new Art series.


Yep.


----------



## rexroadj

AudioDave said:


> Ummm you didnt understand the post.
> 
> (to Chris) Also on the Art series, that is when and how you will find out who I am  I cant say anymore.


Then enlighten us you arrogant ****stick! I was told by Grizz that the powerclass was there flagship model. You have other info showing the opposite? Show us! Your making fast friends on here! 

So what exactly didnt I understand?


----------



## chad

rexroadj said:


> I dont know why people are so concerned with the art series....Its been said several times (by Grizz and others) that the power class is there flagship NOT the art! People seriously need to let the whole "name" thing GO!


And they were ugly even when those ghey Miami Vice colors were cool.


----------



## chad

rexroadj said:


> So what exactly didnt I understand?


You don't understand who he is and what he has done for the audio industry, his car is more expensive than your parent's house.


----------



## rexroadj

chad said:


> You don't understand who he is and what he has done for the audio industry, his car is more expensive than your parent's house.


:laugh: If only people knew how expensive and important my parents house is!!!! I cant tell you yet though, of course 

I agree, I always thought they were some of the ugliest things out (loved em though)


----------



## AudioDave

rexroadj said:


> Then enlighten us you arrogant ****stick! I was told by Grizz that the powerclass was there flagship model. You have other info showing the opposite? Show us! Your making fast friends on here!
> 
> So what exactly didnt I understand?


LOL reread the ad. I'm not the arrogant one here.


----------



## rexroadj

Once again.........Re-read what exactly? where is there and ad? 

Yes you are the arrogant one here! Why dont we start a new thread on how long we think your going to last on here!


----------



## Thoraudio

If you guys knew who I was, you'd all STFU and sit the f down. 

I am the great Thoraudio. Destroyer of Pants and Wielder of the Stink of the Ages. I vanquished the Great Porcelain god and laid waste to the men's room of North 2nd floor only this morning. 




oh, and Art's FTL and AM's and DM FTW.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Alright guys, I need some help here... It was just recently that I decided to start checking out the forums again. I have been on some just to find a bunch of whining, bitching and a bunch of slander. This is the reason that most manufacturers do not contribute to the forums anymore. I want to help people and learn fromt hem as well. it helps me and our dying industry. 

Regarding Audio Dave. Dave is a cool cat. Dave was heavily involved back in the pioneering days of true high end audio. Hell, he has the original artowrk for the Art series amps, ehich is what got us to start talking. Turns out we have alot of the same friends from 15-20 years ago. I would not be surprised if we actually knew each other back then and just forgot. It would be almost impossible for us not to have had hot wigns and beer together down on Mill Ave in Tempe, AZ together! LOL I do not know who everybody is on here and people do not know me either.

I just want a cool forum where enthusiasts hang out and like to talk audio. In the days of Rec Aduio Car, it was a blast but then all of the primadonnas who thuink they know everything ruined it and all of the manufacturers went away. Heated discussions are fine, I enjoy them actually. Myabe you guys can shed some light on the forum for me... Is this a cool place to teach and learn at the same time? Or is it a place for bashing on brands and people? If DIY is a cool place, I'm down for doing whatever I can to help people and gain research for myself for future projects.

Thanx in advance for your input!


----------



## 86mr2

Well, judging from Andy Wehmeyer and Msmith, manufacturers can do well if they are up for a bit of give and take. Of course, having R&D budgets and innovative products helps too.


----------



## Notloudenuf

Car audio is like a religion. If you are not the same religion (i.e. same manufacturer fan boy) you are WRONG and you're going to hell. 
You have the extremists who want to kill all those that do not like their favorite manufacturer and you have the open minded people who want to get what works best for them.


----------



## Grizz Archer

86mr2 said:


> Well, judging from Andy Wehmeyer and Msmith, manufacturers can do well if they are up for a bit of give and take. Of course, having R&D budgets and innovative products helps too.


Ya got that right buddy. Manville and I go way back. Very few companies these days are coming out with new products. Most companies are way down in sales. I look at it like a boxing match. When your oponents stumbles, you go nust and give it all you got to knock them out. BUT, I am only talking about the little cockroach companies that do nothing fvor the industry. Companies like JL and Kicker are vital to our industry. We all respect each other and get along, well most of us anyway. ;^) With the loss of the last American car audio magazine, the only magazine left is PAS mag out of Canada which we work with. But marketing has become tough.  I rely on competitors and enthusiasts' feedback to engineer new products. Hopefully I will get some more valuable feedback from this group...

Thanx man!


----------



## Grizz Archer

Notloudenuf said:


> Car audio is like a religion. If you are not the same religion (i.e. same manufacturer fan boy) you are WRONG and you're going to hell.
> You have the extremists who want to kill all those that do not like their favorite manufacturer and you have the open minded people who want to get what works best for them.


LOL I agree with the second statement, but as for the first, it is only relevant to the enthusiast sometimes. I happen to enjoy testing other brands products. I have every JL and Kicker woofer in my lab. Why? because they are good products and ones that I respect and go up against in the retail market. My job is to engineer new product that are comparable for a lower price. Companies like Audison or Genesis make good products too, but I only have a few product that hit that market. 

Can I go to Heaven since I like other brands too? :^) 

Thanx for the input...


----------



## chad

Grizz Archer said:


> Ya got that right buddy. Manville and I go way back. Very few companies these days are coming out with new products. Most companies are way down in sales. I look at it like a boxing match. When your oponents stumbles, you go nust and give it all you got to knock them out. BUT, I am only talking about the little cockroach companies that do nothing fvor the industry. Companies like JL and Kicker are vital to our industry. We all respect each other and get along, well most of us anyway. ;^) With the loss of the last American car audio magazine, the only magazine left is PAS mag out of Canada which we work with. But marketing has become tough. I rely on competitors and enthusiasts' feedback to engineer new products. Hopefully I will get some more valuable feedback from this group...
> 
> Thanx man!


I feel the same thing is happening throughout the entire electronics industry, not just mobile electronics.

For example, I own an old Yamaha 24Ch console, when it was new it was close to 4 grand, that was A LOT of money back then. It's built like a fuggin TANK and sounds great. 4 bus, 4 aux, limiting by today's standards, but I make it work for me due to reliability reasons and the fact that it can drive a line from here to Tempe with balls. I can now buy something from MACKIE, BEHRINGER, etc, NEW for way less than a grand. the power supply buckles under stress, COMPLETE dis-assembly takes place to replace ONE part, a TOTAL PITA to service, the list goes on. You break it, you throw it away. and when you use it you can tell it's utterly soul-less and designed to be operated by pygmies with tiny fingers.

People are afraid to pay for VALUE, they want it cheap and fast. Look what happened to JBL professional in the past 10 years. They ONLY sold good ****, now they sell some really ****ty stuff. Because people want it cheap and fast.

Unfortunately car audio is the same game. Amps were MORE expensive than they are now not counting inflation, they were made by hand and when they were not totally made by hand they were at least assembled by hand or possibly the finals were stuffed by hand and adjustments such as bias and the like were done by hand. this is where the reliability came from, people have a conscious, robots don't. The human pass/fail margin relies on 5 senses, not a bed of nails.

That being said it's tough to bring an old company that was actually moralistic back in the race today. the industry's fire is fueled by **** product that is mass produced at a high rate and sold cheap as dirt. Granted I'm tot talking about ALL mass produced product but those here in the know know what I'm talking about  NOW, we add the internet into the situation and pow, a recipe for disaster for companies that make a product and rely on a rep-based distribution system to actually make money.

Fortunately in pro audio it's easy to draw the line between the good **** and stuff mommy and daddy buys their aspiring DJ emo kid..... With the re-branding in car-audio it's tough to draw that line.... Thus is why this forum was originally founded. You would have liked the early days better here Grizz.

Chad

PS, this does nothing to dilute the fact that I still think the Arts were the ugliest things on the planet.


----------



## Grizz Archer

chad said:


> I feel the same thing is happening throughout the entire electronics industry, not just mobile electronics.
> 
> For example, I own an old Yamaha 24Ch console, when it was new it was close to 4 grand, that was A LOT of money back then. It's built like a fuggin TANK and sounds great. 4 bus, 4 aux, limiting by today's standards, but I make it work for me due to reliability reasons and the fact that it can drive a line from here to Tempe with balls. I can now buy something from MACKIE, BEHRINGER, etc, NEW for way less than a grand. the power supply buckles under stress, COMPLETE dis-assembly takes place to replace ONE part, a TOTAL PITA to service, the list goes on. You break it, you throw it away. and when you use it you can tell it's utterly soul-less and designed to be operated by pygmies with tiny fingers.
> 
> People are afraid to pay for VALUE, they want it cheap and fast. Look what happened to JBL professional in the past 10 years. They ONLY sold good ****, now they sell some really ****ty stuff. Because people want it cheap and fast.
> 
> Unfortunately car audio is the same game. Amps were MORE expensive than they are now not counting inflation, they were made by hand and when they were not totally made by hand they were at least assembled by hand or possibly the finals were stuffed by hand and adjustments such as bias and the like were done by hand. this is where the reliability came from, people have a conscious, robots don't. The human pass/fail margin relies on 5 senses, not a bed of nails.
> 
> That being said it's tough to bring an old company that was actually moralistic back in the race today. the industry's fire is fueled by **** product that is mass produced at a high rate and sold cheap as dirt. Granted I'm tot talking about ALL mass produced product but those here in the know know what I'm talking about  NOW, we add the internet into the situation and pow, a recipe for disaster for companies that make a product and rely on a rep-based distribution system to actually make money.
> 
> Fortunately in pro audio it's easy to draw the line between the good **** and stuff mommy and daddy buys their aspiring DJ emo kid..... With the re-branding in car-audio it's tough to draw that line.... Thus is why this forum was originally founded. You would have liked the early days better here Grizz.
> 
> Chad
> 
> PS, this does nothing to dilute the fact that I still think the Arts were the ugliest things on the planet.



LOL - either you loved them or hated them. The new ones will not have turquoise and pink 80s graphics on them. The new ones are all black and copper and look badass! But some people mat still hate the shape but we only made minor change to keep them nostalgic. 

Everything you said above is dead on! People demanded we make a studio grade amplifier. Poof Human Reign was born. Though it may still be the reference amplifier of Germany, the fact is that it sells very little. People wanted the return of Reference amps. Viola! They're here, but again, donot fly out of the warehouse. You're right, people want phonomenal product but at swap meet or eBay prices. People do not care about warranties until something breaks. Then they bask ont he brand because they were too cheap to be legit. Anyway, I donot want to got here for the billionth time. But I am glad you understand what happened and where we all are at now!

Thanx!


----------



## roxj01

Grizz Archer said:


> Alright guys, I need some help here... It was just recently that I decided to start checking out the forums again. I have been on some just to find a bunch of whining, bitching and a bunch of slander. This is the reason that most manufacturers do not contribute to the forums anymore. I want to help people and learn fromt hem as well. it helps me and our dying industry.
> 
> Regarding Audio Dave. Dave is a cool cat. Dave was heavily involved back in the pioneering days of true high end audio. Hell, he has the original artowrk for the Art series amps, ehich is what got us to start talking. Turns out we have alot of the same friends from 15-20 years ago. I would not be surprised if we actually knew each other back then and just forgot. It would be almost impossible for us not to have had hot wigns and beer together down on Mill Ave in Tempe, AZ together! LOL I do not know who everybody is on here and people do not know me either.
> 
> I just want a cool forum where enthusiasts hang out and like to talk audio. In the days of Rec Aduio Car, it was a blast but then all of the primadonnas who thuink they know everything ruined it and all of the manufacturers went away. Heated discussions are fine, I enjoy them actually. Myabe you guys can shed some light on the forum for me... Is this a cool place to teach and learn at the same time? Or is it a place for bashing on brands and people? If DIY is a cool place, I'm down for doing whatever I can to help people and gain research for myself for future projects.
> 
> Thanx in advance for your input!



in the short time i have been around i have found diyma to be more informative and helpful than any of the other car audio forums (my opinion only, of course). i think you have to take the good with the bad and there is way more good than bad here. i for one appreciate all the manufactures such as yourself, manville, andy, and the others that take the time to keep us informed and answer our questions. hopefully the few haters out there wont discourage you guys from coming around.


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> I have every JL and Kicker woofer in my lab. Why? because they are good products and ones that I respect and go up against in the retail market. My job is to engineer new product that are comparable for a lower price.


Then here's some advice: take a W7, design a copper sleeve that maintains inductance linearity as well as the motor maintains BL linearity, offer it in sizes up to 18", and sell them for 10% less than the Jellos. 

(And make the successors to your new Art Series - Art Series-3? - smaller than Alpine PDX's, Jello HD's, Pioneer PRS, or Kenwood Excelon amps while offering similar power.)

(Damn the new ad-keyword spammer ******** thing that uncapitalizes all of the proper nouns I properly capitalized!)



Grizz Archer said:


> Everything you said above is dead on! People demanded we make a studio grade amplifier. Poof Human Reign was born. Though it may still be the reference amplifier of Germany, the fact is that it sells very little.


Couldn't that just be, though, because honest consumers who can hear properly and understand the scholarly literature on sonic differences in audio electronics aren't fooled my marketing into thinking that some "sound" different (let alone "better!") than others? So, since "sound quality" isn't at all an issue - and it's either ignorant or intellectually dishonest to claim otherwise - "reference" has to mean something like power density (power for a given footprint or volume) or features (DSP and so on).


----------



## PPI_GUY

I am not taking sides in this whole "AudioDave" mess but, he has caused quite a stir over on CA.com with his back and forth arguments with some posters there. The link is here in the last page or two of this thread if anyone wants to put themselves thru the hassle of reading it. 
I will say this, if he is someone who played even a small role in the early days of car audio, he doesn't come off sounding like it in that thread. I know it's easy to get caught up in bickering on a messageboard but, AudioDave comes off as very unprofessional and immature in alot of his posts. I'm not saying he is lying about his past or even his importance to the car audio industry. Hell, I don't even know the guy. But, just reading a few of his posts and comparing his attitude with that of other 'company people' like Manville Smith, Andy Wehmeyer and Grizz Archer, you get the feeling that something isn't exactly right with his attitude, claims, self-importance, etc. 
If I am wrong about this, I will be the first to say, 'hey, AudioDave, you were right, you are a big name in car audio'. I've been wrong plenty of times before and I'll be wrong again soon enough. But, he has posted alot of stuff on various forums that makes you scratch your head.


----------



## emperorjj1

chad said:


> PS, this does nothing to dilute the fact that I still think the Arts were the ugliest things on the planet.


including the black ones? or just the white ones?


----------



## rugdnit

PPI_GUY said:


> I am not taking sides in this whole "AudioDave" mess but, he has caused quite a stir over on CA.com with his back and forth arguments with some posters there. The link is here in the last page or two of this thread if anyone wants to put themselves thru the hassle of reading it.
> I will say this, if he is someone who played even a small role in the early days of car audio, he doesn't come off sounding like it in that thread. I know it's easy to get caught up in bickering on a messageboard but, AudioDave comes off as very unprofessional and immature in alot of his posts. I'm not saying he is lying about his past or even his importance to the car audio industry. Hell, I don't even know the guy. But, just reading a few of his posts and comparing his attitude with that of other 'company people' like Manville Smith, Andy Wehmeyer and Grizz Archer, you get the feeling that something isn't exactly right with his attitude, claims, self-importance, etc.
> If I am wrong about this, I will be the first to say, 'hey, AudioDave, you were right, you are a big name in car audio'. I've been wrong plenty of times before and I'll be wrong again soon enough. But, he has posted alot of stuff on various forums that makes you scratch your head.


Could it be because, anytime somebody pulls the " Don't you know who I am? " or the " You don't know who you're $ucking with! " it generally means you are a douche.


----------



## AAAAAAA

DS-21 said:


> Then here's some advice: take a W7, design a copper sleeve that maintains inductance linearity as well as the motor maintains BL linearity, offer it in sizes up to 18", and sell them for 10% less than the Jellos.
> 
> (And make the successors to your new Art Series - Art Series-3? - smaller than Alpine PDX's, Jello HD's, Pioneer PRS, or Kenwood Excelon amps while offering similar power.)


Yes!!
Although I wouldn't want to see a rebadge of the class AB soundstream stealths. I have a hard time with class AB and small footprints. It's like a company trying to stay up with the latest and greatest with footprint and features yet it's the wrong technology for the application.


----------



## chad

emperorjj1 said:


> including the black ones? or just the white ones?


The black ones are all right, the white ones scream studio 54 IMHO.


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> Then here's some advice: take a W7, design a copper sleeve that maintains inductance linearity as well as the motor maintains BL linearity, offer it in sizes up to 18", and sell them for 10% less than the Jellos.
> 
> (And make the successors to your new Art Series - Art Series-3? - smaller than Alpine PDX's, Jello HD's, Pioneer PRS, or Kenwood Excelon amps while offering similar power.)
> 
> (Damn the new ad-keyword spammer ******** thing that uncapitalizes all of the proper nouns I properly capitalized!)
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't that just be, though, because honest consumers who can hear properly and understand the scholarly literature on sonic differences in audio electronics aren't fooled my marketing into thinking that some "sound" different (let alone "better!") than others? So, since "sound quality" isn't at all an issue - and it's either ignorant or intellectually dishonest to claim otherwise - "reference" has to mean something like power density (power for a given footprint or volume) or features (DSP and so on).


We are always looking for new things to do with transducers. But some of the best uideas we have may never sell or cost too much to bring to reality.

If we made the ART series a Class D fullrange people would not buy it and I would catch hell for years! If we even made it SMT like our Stealth amps, I think we would still catch a bunch of poop for it. It will be an almost identical chassis shape, but smaller compared to the originals.

As for the last statement... I agree with you 1/2 way. Most amplifiers sound damn near identical given the same power. So I got your back. But I suppose I am am ignorant, because there is a difference between a Class A/B, Class D fullrange, Tube, and even a true Class A or Class A/B with long bias period. But as I said, comparable amps with the same power can have undetectable differences. Which is why I get frustrated when people demand to see old school technology with monster parts and turn their heads to SMT technology which is really not all that new anyway...


----------



## Grizz Archer

AAAAAAA said:


> Yes!!
> Although I wouldn't want to see a rebadge of the class AB soundstream stealths. I have a hard time with class AB and small footprints. It's like a company trying to stay up with the latest and greatest with footprint and features yet it's the wrong technology for the application.


The stealths are simply an answer to the need for power in a small chassis. I happen to dig them, but I would noty make ark like them just out of my personal preference...


----------



## AudioDave

Grizz Archer said:


> Alright guys, I need some help here... It was just recently that I decided to start checking out the forums again. I have been on some just to find a bunch of whining, bitching and a bunch of slander. This is the reason that most manufacturers do not contribute to the forums anymore. I want to help people and learn fromt hem as well. it helps me and our dying industry.
> 
> Regarding Audio Dave. Dave is a cool cat. Dave was heavily involved back in the pioneering days of true high end audio. Hell, he has the original artowrk for the Art series amps, ehich is what got us to start talking. Turns out we have alot of the same friends from 15-20 years ago. I would not be surprised if we actually knew each other back then and just forgot. It would be almost impossible for us not to have had hot wigns and beer together down on Mill Ave in Tempe, AZ together! LOL I do not know who everybody is on here and people do not know me either.
> 
> I just want a cool forum where enthusiasts hang out and like to talk audio. In the days of Rec Aduio Car, it was a blast but then all of the primadonnas who thuink they know everything ruined it and all of the manufacturers went away. Heated discussions are fine, I enjoy them actually. Myabe you guys can shed some light on the forum for me... Is this a cool place to teach and learn at the same time? Or is it a place for bashing on brands and people? If DIY is a cool place, I'm down for doing whatever I can to help people and gain research for myself for future projects.
> 
> Thanx in advance for your input!


Aw you are wicked cool my friend. You spoiled it on the artwork I didnt want them to know what I was doing lolol. Anyways OMG Mill ave was fun as hell. Talk to you again soon with the artwork. Let me know on the boards too as we discussed.


----------



## AudioDave

rugdnit said:


> Could it be because, anytime somebody pulls the " Don't you know who I am? " or the " You don't know who you're $ucking with! " it generally means you are a douche.


Could it be maybe I just couldnt say anything yet?


----------



## AudioDave

PPI_GUY said:


> I am not taking sides in this whole "AudioDave" mess but, he has caused quite a stir over on CA.com with his back and forth arguments with some posters there. The link is here in the last page or two of this thread if anyone wants to put themselves thru the hassle of reading it.
> I will say this, if he is someone who played even a small role in the early days of car audio, he doesn't come off sounding like it in that thread. I know it's easy to get caught up in bickering on a messageboard but, AudioDave comes off as very unprofessional and immature in alot of his posts. I'm not saying he is lying about his past or even his importance to the car audio industry. Hell, I don't even know the guy. But, just reading a few of his posts and comparing his attitude with that of other 'company people' like Manville Smith, Andy Wehmeyer and Grizz Archer, you get the feeling that something isn't exactly right with his attitude, claims, self-importance, etc.
> If I am wrong about this, I will be the first to say, 'hey, AudioDave, you were right, you are a big name in car audio'. I've been wrong plenty of times before and I'll be wrong again soon enough. But, he has posted alot of stuff on various forums that makes you scratch your head.


Ok you were wrong. I dont hold grudges. I was wrong too by not adding the note. I wasnt trying to claim anything as mine except what I have done. Those were just fav installs - except the Cavalier and the Blazer. I dont evem have all my pics up from the years. Theres no room.

However those who know me, know I know what I am doing. I could careless if those who dont know me talk crap. They will anyways.


----------



## AudioDave

roxj01 said:


> in the short time i have been around i have found diyma to be more informative and helpful than any of the other car audio forums (my opinion only, of course). i think you have to take the good with the bad and there is way more good than bad here. i for one appreciate all the manufactures such as yourself, manville, andy, and the others that take the time to keep us informed and answer our questions. hopefully the few haters out there wont discourage you guys from coming around.


Only the hatred would stop us all from coming, even those not in the industry. Noone likes reading a bunch of kids arguing.


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> If we made the ART series a Class D fullrange people would not buy it and I would catch hell for years!


Customers aren't nearly as stupid as the car-fi industry has long surmised we are. (That's one reason this site sprang up: the car-fi industry just hasn't been good enough, so people have been only using what car-fi marketed gear they must and buying other stuff from sources that offer superior performance and, as a side benefit, lower prices where it's practical.)

Let me categorically say, as someone who bought an original A404.2 new as my first car amp, that if you released an modern - and by modern I mean class D - "A604D" in the same form factor and shape as my old A404.2 but at least a little smaller than a 150x4 Alpine PDX or Jello HD600/4 for a reasonable price, I would buy one. 

Besides, aren't the people who actually designed the ur-Arts - now at JL, right? - doing Class D amps pretty much exclusively?



Grizz Archer said:


> As for the last statement... I agree with you 1/2 way. Most amplifiers sound damn near identical given the same power. So I got your back. But I suppose I am am ignorant, because there is a difference between a Class A/B, Class D fullrange, Tube, and even a true Class A or Class A/B with long bias period.


I agree that a badly designed or out-of-adjustment tube amp will sound different from a competently designed amp in good repair. But a competently designed Class A, Class AB, Class D, or tube amp in good repair just will not sound different from another competently designed Class A, Class AB, Class D, or tube amp in good repair. There has *never* been a properly conducted test (at least single-blind, level matched) that has shown such differences to be reliably detectable.

Personally, I have found no difference between Class AB and Class D amps, such as between a $2000 Marantz/Adcom separates stack (which had previously been found identical sounding to a much more expensive Meridian/Classe separates stack) and a sub-$300 Panasonic receiver incorporating TI's "PurePath" DAC-amp chipset. And previously, no difference between good tube amps (Sonic Frontiers Power 2, maybe?) and good solid state amps (Class CA-200 I believe). I've done enough of that kind of level matched and blind listening evaluation to realize that amps - and digital sources, and basically everything but speakers, speaker placement, signal/room correction processing, and the "room" itself - are just commodity parts from a sonic perspective. One wastes too much time thinking about them at the expense of doing something that could actually change the sound of one's system.


----------



## AudioDave

chad said:


> I feel the same thing is happening throughout the entire electronics industry, not just mobile electronics.
> 
> For example, I own an old Yamaha 24Ch console, when it was new it was close to 4 grand, that was A LOT of money back then. It's built like a fuggin TANK and sounds great. 4 bus, 4 aux, limiting by today's standards, but I make it work for me due to reliability reasons and the fact that it can drive a line from here to Tempe with balls. I can now buy something from MACKIE, BEHRINGER, etc, NEW for way less than a grand. the power supply buckles under stress, COMPLETE dis-assembly takes place to replace ONE part, a TOTAL PITA to service, the list goes on. You break it, you throw it away. and when you use it you can tell it's utterly soul-less and designed to be operated by pygmies with tiny fingers.
> 
> People are afraid to pay for VALUE, they want it cheap and fast. Look what happened to JBL professional in the past 10 years. They ONLY sold good ****, now they sell some really ****ty stuff. Because people want it cheap and fast.
> 
> Unfortunately car audio is the same game. Amps were MORE expensive than they are now not counting inflation, they were made by hand and when they were not totally made by hand they were at least assembled by hand or possibly the finals were stuffed by hand and adjustments such as bias and the like were done by hand. this is where the reliability came from, people have a conscious, robots don't. The human pass/fail margin relies on 5 senses, not a bed of nails.
> 
> That being said it's tough to bring an old company that was actually moralistic back in the race today. the industry's fire is fueled by **** product that is mass produced at a high rate and sold cheap as dirt. Granted I'm tot talking about ALL mass produced product but those here in the know know what I'm talking about  NOW, we add the internet into the situation and pow, a recipe for disaster for companies that make a product and rely on a rep-based distribution system to actually make money.
> 
> Fortunately in pro audio it's easy to draw the line between the good **** and stuff mommy and daddy buys their aspiring DJ emo kid..... With the re-branding in car-audio it's tough to draw that line.... Thus is why this forum was originally founded. You would have liked the early days better here Grizz.
> 
> Chad
> 
> PS, this does nothing to dilute the fact that I still think the Arts were the ugliest things on the planet.


What is amazing thogh is that back in the days, people did buy them. It was almost a phenomenon. Stores were always out of stock and this was back when they were 500.00+ not much different then today. There are people who have moeny and there are people who dream of having money. The only difference is those who are willing to spend it to get what they pay for.


----------



## chad

AudioDave said:


> What is amazing thogh is that back int he days, people did buy them. It was almost a phenomenon. Stores were always out of stock and this was back when they were 500.00+ not much different then today. There are people who have moeny and there are people who dream of having money. The only difference is those who are willing to spend it to get what they pay for.


There was not the same proliferation of cheap **** as there is now. People bought 4K+ mixing consoles to mix bar bands too and that **** does not happen anymore either  When I was winding down with touring and was doing club work with house systems you would not BELIEVE how many times I said "You have to be f%cking kidding me!?" It's not like buying used toilet paper, there are MULTITUDES of used consoles out there that would have fit their budget and been actually serviceable or usable.

Guys you all know I'm as tight as bark on a tree, I own a JL500/5, love the damn thing, not an "inexpensive amp" by any means. You think I bought it new? Hells no!


----------



## rugdnit

AudioDave said:


> Could it be maybe I just couldnt say anything yet?


Sure... but you gotta' understand how poorly this comes off.... and of all places to say this? In any manner let's keep this thread on track and move forward. Once the pissing starts around here it's ugly.... real ugly.


----------



## AudioDave

rugdnit said:


> Sure... but you gotta' understand how poorly this comes off.... and of all places to say this? In any manner let's keep this thread on track and move forward. Once the pissing starts around here it's ugly.... real ugly.


agreed.


----------



## PPI_GUY

You guys may think I am crazy for saying this but, one of the first things that drew me to PPI was the understated look of their amps. Now, please remember this was '88-'89 so, almost _all_ amps were non-descript. Atleast compared to what is out there now. After doing some research into who and what PPI was about, the quality of their equipment and the fact that all my friends were using Orion, Rockford and Yamaha made up my mind for me. I sold one of my Punch 45's and bought a 2150M. That amp is still to this day, my favorite all-around, workhorse favorite. After that I moved on to Pro Mos.

I say all of that to make a point about cosmetics. We're all very basic when it comes right down to it. If something looks good (girl, car, movie trailer, etc.) we will be drawn to it. Not everyone's tastes are the same. So, I hope Grizz and Epsilon were thinking of what would appeal to a wide customer base when they settled on a design for a new Art series. Because, from my experience, Art fans are pretty picky. Meaning, I hope you got the design right!


----------



## chad

Andy Warholishish NOT understated


----------



## PPI_GUY

chad said:


> Andy Warholishish NOT understated


I should clarify. I was speaking of the *black* versions of those amps. I never was a big fan of the 'pyramids & palmtrees' graphics.


----------



## ChrisB

Grizz Archer said:


> Regarding Audio Dave. Dave is a cool cat. Dave was heavily involved back in the pioneering days of true high end audio. *Hell, he has the original artowrk for the Art series amps*, ehich is what got us to start talking. Turns out we have alot of the same friends from 15-20 years ago. I would not be surprised if we actually knew each other back then and just forgot. It would be almost impossible for us not to have had hot wigns and beer together down on Mill Ave in Tempe, AZ together! LOL I do not know who everybody is on here and people do not know me either.


ZOMG, Audio Dave is Carolyn Hall Young: Resume


1983 -1994 Precision Power, Incorporated
Audio Electronics Manufacturers, Phoenix, Arizona
Corporate image: all visuals including; logo design, art direction, packaging, product design, printed materials, advertising, wearables, POP and trade show booths, 1985-1994. Creative design consultant, 1983-1985.
• Editor’s choice awards and design awards for product. Exhibit design magazine coverage of trade show booths.
• Construction supervision, interior design and furnishings for corporate offices.
• Hand painting of demonstration vehicles.
• Total visual identity distinguishing Precision Power from their competition.

I am sorry for picking on you Ms. Young!


----------



## rexroadj

Hey Grizz.......Couple questions for you.
#1. Are the powerclass the top end model for the new ppi line? 
#2. assuming that the powerclass are the high end line how do they compare to the SS Ref. (absolutely love the new Ref amps, cant say enough good about them)
#3. Any chance that you guys will be bringing back something along the lines of the dcx-730? (Probably my favorite processor of that time) or perhaps dive into things like the imprint/ms-8

On another note....I am glad to see you chime in again (you have always been extremely honest and approachable via phone/email, THANK YOU), I have been one of the lone souls on here attempting to get people to open there mind to the fact that you guys are going to try an put your best foot forward on this project and after using a few of the ss ref amps I am a firm believer that the project can have great potential. If you guys are looking to hand out a powerclass or art series (amps, subs or 3way components) to test/review on here I am more then willing  You know since I was one of the only ones to actually state an opinion having used some of the newer higher end epsilon products!


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> Customers aren't nearly as stupid as the car-fi industry has long surmised we are. (That's one reason this site sprang up: the car-fi industry just hasn't been good enough, so people have been only using what car-fi marketed gear they must and buying other stuff from sources that offer superior performance and, as a side benefit, lower prices where it's practical.)
> 
> The myth that the consumers are stupid, is just that - a myth. I see it this way... Alot of the hobbyists or general buyers lack alot of knowledge. But the true enthusiasts, like pople that hang out on forums, tend to me alot more educated because they want to learn and are alot more involved...
> 
> Let me categorically say, as someone who bought an original A404.2 new as my first car amp, that if you released an modern - and by modern I mean class D - "A604D" in the same form factor and shape as my old A404.2 but at least a little smaller than a 150x4 Alpine PDX or Jello HD600/4 for a reasonable price, I would buy one.
> 
> There are alot of guys like you and alot the opposite. Just so you know, there will be 2x 2ch AB amps, 2x 4ch AB amps, 1x 6ch AB amp, and 3x D monoblocks. Boards have been mostly done since the end of last year. The internal arguing has been over the chassis. The chassis is almost the same as the original in shape with only a few minor mods. Call it an update if you will, but it is 100% obvious what it is at first glance. Since technology changed so much since then, the sizes will be smaller than the originals, but not fullrange Class D size. And actually still bigger than SMT boards.
> 
> Besides, aren't the people who actually designed the ur-Arts - now at JL, right? - doing Class D amps pretty much exclusively?
> 
> JL amps are from the minds of Jeff Scoon and Bruce MacMillan - I think I spelled his name wrong. Anyway, they were previously at MTX/Xtant, solely Xtant before that, and yes, PPI before that. Two of the nicest guys you could ever meet!
> 
> I agree that a badly designed or out-of-adjustment tube amp will sound different from a competently designed amp in good repair. But a competently designed Class A, Class AB, Class D, or tube amp in good repair just will not sound different from another competently designed Class A, Class AB, Class D, or tube amp in good repair. There has *never* been a properly conducted test (at least single-blind, level matched) that has shown such differences to be reliably detectable.
> 
> I hear ya, but I respectfully disagree. I agree that 95% of people would not hjear a difference, but musicians and audiophiles would hear a difference. This is the eternal argument that will never be settled, so we must agree to disagree... :^)
> 
> Personally, I have found no difference between Class AB and Class D amps, such as between a $2000 Marantz/Adcom separates stack (which had previously been found identical sounding to a much more expensive Meridian/Classe separates stack) and a sub-$300 Panasonic receiver incorporating TI's "PurePath" DAC-amp chipset. And previously, no difference between good tube amps (Sonic Frontiers Power 2, maybe?) and good solid state amps (Class CA-200 I believe). I've done enough of that kind of level matched and blind listening evaluation to realize that amps - and digital sources, and basically everything but speakers, speaker placement, signal/room correction processing, and the "room" itself - are just commodity parts from a sonic perspective. One wastes too much time thinking about them at the expense of doing something that could actually change the sound of one's system.


In an effort to show you that I do agree with you for the most part, I could run all Human Reign amps for free. Or Referrence, or Power Class, etc. But I choose SMT amps for their size, because I an not an SQ competitor and the quality of the smaller amps is more than fine for listenint to music in a non-critical environment. Hell, my Jeep has all 4 doors off, the roof off and two D-Tower amps mounted vertically on the rollbar so I waste no space. Works perfectly for me... Oh, and you might get a kick out of this. Japan is all about SQ. They do not do SPL, SQ is king and they areextremely serious about it. The only amps they buy from us is Human Reign, Reference, and beleieve it or not, Stealth. Tiny cars need tiny amps and they find the Stealth worthy. They could even tell the difference between the Reference vs. the Power Clas at start-up and after 10 minutes to warm up. Those guys got ears that I wish I still had...


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> You guys may think I am crazy for saying this but, one of the first things that drew me to PPI was the understated look of their amps. Now, please remember this was '88-'89 so, almost _all_ amps were non-descript. Atleast compared to what is out there now. After doing some research into who and what PPI was about, the quality of their equipment and the fact that all my friends were using Orion, Rockford and Yamaha made up my mind for me. I sold one of my Punch 45's and bought a 2150M. That amp is still to this day, my favorite all-around, workhorse favorite. After that I moved on to Pro Mos.
> 
> I say all of that to make a point about cosmetics. We're all very basic when it comes right down to it. If something looks good (girl, car, movie trailer, etc.) we will be drawn to it. Not everyone's tastes are the same. So, I hope Grizz and Epsilon were thinking of what would appeal to a wide customer base when they settled on a design for a new Art series. Because, from my experience, Art fans are pretty picky. Meaning, I hope you got the design right!


Well put. I hope I got it right too! :^) I spend alot of time in Europe. I have been studying their transducer theories for many years. Know that I am the speaker engineer, not the amplifier engineer. I am way too stupid to be an amp engineer. I just understand them. Anyway, I wanted to do a 3-way set of components for over 2 years and finally got the green light. They were slated to ge to Soundstream along with an SQ 8". Trying to develop a whole new PPI in a year was difficult, so I agreed to put the suba dn 3-ways into PPI, which turned out be a good idea. Anyway, if you look at the Power Class PC3.65C components, you will get an idea of what the Art amps will look like. Very classy balck and copper cosmetics, but with the American semi-arrogant original chassis shape. People love the component cosmetics so far, so I think I might be on the right path. We'll see...


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> Tiny cars need tiny amps and they find the Stealth worthy. They could even tell the difference between the Reference vs. the Power Clas at start-up and after 10 minutes to warm up. Those guys got ears that I wish I still had...


You mean they *think* they can, but in fact they're delusional and in truth probably poor listeners because they're straining to hear things that don't exist. (Not that I don't understand why you'd humor them, because they're poor listeners _who buy expensive car audio stuff._) 

Again, there has *never* been a properly conducted (level-matched, blind) listening evaluation that has shown any sonic difference between two competently designed nonbroken amplifiers. And you know as well as I do that "warm up" on solid state stuff is a non-issue. On a tube amp, there may be some differences as the expensive light-bulbs start glowing.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Hey Grizz.......Couple questions for you.
> #1. Are the powerclass the top end model for the new ppi line?
> #2. assuming that the powerclass are the high end line how do they compare to the SS Ref. (absolutely love the new Ref amps, cant say enough good about them)
> #3. Any chance that you guys will be bringing back something along the lines of the dcx-730? (Probably my favorite processor of that time) or perhaps dive into things like the imprint/ms-8
> 
> On another note....I am glad to see you chime in again (you have always been extremely honest and approachable via phone/email, THANK YOU), I have been one of the lone souls on here attempting to get people to open there mind to the fact that you guys are going to try an put your best foot forward on this project and after using a few of the ss ref amps I am a firm believer that the project can have great potential. If you guys are looking to hand out a powerclass or art series (amps, subs or 3way components) to test/review on here I am more then willing  You know since I was one of the only ones to actually state an opinion having used some of the newer higher end epsilon products!


Hey buddy,

1. Yes the Power Class are the highest level. That was another interoffice quarrel... Should ART or PC be the highest? People argued both ways. So we got external feedback. I did not get my way this time. Just my opinion, but I was never a fan of the oval chassis...
2. The problem with having several brands bring up this type of question. people who think our Power Acoustik is the same as Soundstream ia a freaking moron. But when you have the same engineer designing two high ends amps, his mind can't go two entirely different directions. Obviuously they are two totally different amps since the REFs have all connections on one side. They simply cannot be the same as some peopel suspect. However, I will tell you this. I design the pre amps section because I am an active-xover fanatic. There are certain things I demand, and they accomodate my requests. The REFs have higher damping factors, but the PC are still extremely high. (Please do not get me started on the whole damping factor discussion!!!) I can honestly say that I do not prefer one over the other. I like the REF chassis better, but as for performance, both are pretty much on the same level of quality. We could not make them in Chain because at some point, if you want the very best, you need to leave China to meet certain requirements. Both of these amps are made in Korea. More expensive, but still alot cheaper that American made and at the same quality level. Probably did not satisfy you with that answer, but that's all I got for ya on that one...
3. Ahhhh processors. Another fight I am not winning. The fact is that the MS-8 and Imprint and Bit-One are all phenomenal pieces, but who buys them except for competitors? I doubt we will ever got there. It woulf be fun to have, but we would never make any money on them, and with 3 good products out, it would tought to make something better. When it comes to EQs, Audio Control makes a killer product and pretty much owns that market. I doubt we'll ever do anything, but I am working on something pretty freaking sick for the masses that has something to do with processing. I can't yell ya what it is , or ........ 

Thanx for the compliment. Nobody can ever say that I am dishonest. A jerk at times, yes. A sloppy beer brewing maniac, definitely. But dishonest, never! I like to think that even though I work for a manufacturer, I still remian un-biased as a true enthusiast. I frequently compliment other brands when it is earned... This month there is a review in PAS mag for the PC 12" sub. The 3-way review will be published next and the PC640.4 is in quee for testing next. Thanx for the offer though!


----------



## rexroadj

Thanks for clarifying things and answering my ?s..... I just sent an email to my (semi) local ss dealer to see if they can get me a pair of the art sq 8s to play with! I am intrigued and love to play (just dont have time). I found someone that is selling a (new version) human reign at a pretty good price used so I might try that out. Space is an issue of course! I am also intrigued by the 3ways.....I also love copper!!!! I did notice another company (wont name any names) has a set very similar in looks..........I assume same build house but different components???? I think we (as an audio community) have been waiting for a (decent priced) 3way set. I think I nice copper dcx-730 would be real nice!!!! except more outputs....3way active, rear, center, sub...... What can I say, I love to tinker with new toys......


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> 3. Ahhhh processors. Another fight I am not winning. The fact is that the MS-8 and Imprint and Bit-One are all phenomenal pieces, but who buys them except for competitors?


Here's some ammo for you, then. There are certainly other people like me, who see absolutely no point in having someone else listen to my parked car or judge whether I have the correct number of grommets or whatever, who are running sophisticated automated processing such as Audyseey MultEQ XT or the Harman stuff _they work._. (Specifically, an Alpine PXE-H650 in my case.)



Grizz Archer said:


> I doubt we will ever got there. It woulf be fun to have, but we would never make any money on them, and with 3 good products out, it would tought to make something better.


Just a thought: there are, it seems, five major room correction packages out there: Audyssey MultEQ (often called "Imprint" for some reason in car audio), Harman's proprietary stuff, Trinnov, Lyngdorf, and DEQX. 

Obviously, Alpine's with Audyssey right now - though their implementation is frankly unworthy of the technology, and I think you could do better - and Harman looks to have an extremely capable product in the MS-8. (I don't see where the Bitone fits in here, because I think it's just digital crossover and EQ, but I could be wrong.) But the other three are entirely unrepresented in car-fi. (At home, Sherwood-Newcastle uses Trinnov, DEQX sells their own box and the NHT Xd speaker system used an earlier version, and Lyngdorf (and TacT) sell their own box.

Trinnov just might be the one best-suited to a car, given its image-steering capabilities. But, as mentioned above, nobody's using it. Might be a niche worth pursuing.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Thanks for clarifying things and answering my ?s..... I just sent an email to my (semi) local ss dealer to see if they can get me a pair of the art sq 8s to play with! I am intrigued and love to play (just dont have time). I found someone that is selling a (new version) human reign at a pretty good price used so I might try that out. Space is an issue of course! I am also intrigued by the 3ways.....I also love copper!!!! I did notice another company (wont name any names) has a set very similar in looks..........I assume same build house but different components???? I think we (as an audio community) have been waiting for a (decent priced) 3way set. I think I nice copper dcx-730 would be real nice!!!! except more outputs....3way active, rear, center, sub...... What can I say, I love to tinker with new toys......


Let me know about your vehicle and musical tastes for the Art SQ 8". I have a pair of them in my Jeep tuned to 26Hz and they are pretty badass for such a small box.

As for the components, Maybe this company you mentioned has the same basket or a close version, or maybe a phaseplug. But I assure you, NOBODY has a 6.5"/2.5"/.8" set like mine. But I would not be suprised if another company has a same or similar part. Unless it is custom tooled for stupid amounts of money, China will whore it out to everybody.

Send me pics as you progress!


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> Here's some ammo for you, then. There are certainly other people like me, who see absolutely no point in having someone else listen to my parked car or judge whether I have the correct number of grommets or whatever, who are running sophisticated automated processing such as Audyseey MultEQ XT or the Harman stuff _they work._. (Specifically, an Alpine PXE-H650 in my case.)
> 
> 
> 
> Just a thought: there are, it seems, five major room correction packages out there: Audyssey MultEQ (often called "Imprint" for some reason in car audio), Harman's proprietary stuff, Trinnov, Lyngdorf, and DEQX.
> 
> Obviously, Alpine's with Audyssey right now - though their implementation is frankly unworthy of the technology, and I think you could do better - and Harman looks to have an extremely capable product in the MS-8. (I don't see where the Bitone fits in here, because I think it's just digital crossover and EQ, but I could be wrong.) But the other three are entirely unrepresented in car-fi. (At home, Sherwood-Newcastle uses Trinnov, DEQX sells their own box and the NHT Xd speaker system used an earlier version, and Lyngdorf (and TacT) sell their own box.
> 
> Trinnov just might be the one best-suited to a car, given its image-steering capabilities. But, as mentioned above, nobody's using it. Might be a niche worth pursuing.


Hmmmm... You know way more about this stuff than I do. The problem would like the same with any really expensive part. You spend a ton fo money in engineering, then tooling, then production, only to find out that nobody will pay the price and the only guys really interested in it want is sponsored. The rest sit on the shelf. I'll have to think about it... Thanx for the input.


----------



## mmiller

Grizz Archer said:


> Hey buddy,
> 
> 1. Yes the Power Class are the highest level. That was another interoffice quarrel... Should ART or PC be the highest? People argued both ways. So we got external feedback. I did not get my way this time. Just my opinion, but I was never a fan of the oval chassis...
> 2. The problem with having several brands bring up this type of question. people who think our Power Acoustik is the same as Soundstream ia a freaking moron. But when you have the same engineer designing two high ends amps, his mind can't go two entirely different directions. Obviuously they are two totally different amps since the REFs have all connections on one side. They simply cannot be the same as some peopel suspect. However, I will tell you this. I design the pre amps section because I am an active-xover fanatic. There are certain things I demand, and they accomodate my requests. The REFs have higher damping factors, but the PC are still extremely high. (Please do not get me started on the whole damping factor discussion!!!) I can honestly say that I do not prefer one over the other. I like the REF chassis better, but as for performance, both are pretty much on the same level of quality. We could not make them in Chain because at some point, if you want the very best, you need to leave China to meet certain requirements. Both of these amps are made in Korea. More expensive, but still alot cheaper that American made and at the same quality level. Probably did not satisfy you with that answer, but that's all I got for ya on that one...
> 3. Ahhhh processors. Another fight I am not winning. The fact is that the MS-8 and Imprint and Bit-One are all phenomenal pieces, but who buys them except for competitors? I doubt we will ever got there. It woulf be fun to have, but we would never make any money on them, and with 3 good products out, it would tought to make something better. When it comes to EQs, Audio Control makes a killer product and pretty much owns that market. I doubt we'll ever do anything, but I am working on something pretty freaking sick for the masses that has something to do with processing. I can't yell ya what it is , or ........
> 
> Thanx for the compliment. Nobody can ever say that I am dishonest. A jerk at times, yes. A sloppy beer brewing maniac, definitely. But dishonest, never! I like to think that even though I work for a manufacturer, I still remian un-biased as a true enthusiast. I frequently compliment other brands when it is earned... This month there is a review in PAS mag for the PC 12" sub. The 3-way review will be published next and the PC640.4 is in quee for testing next. Thanx for the offer though!


Grizz, The PPi review in PAS was for the Pc15, not the 12. It got a very high review... I just read it the other day...


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> You mean they *think* they can, but in fact they're delusional and in truth probably poor listeners because they're straining to hear things that don't exist. (Not that I don't understand why you'd humor them, because they're poor listeners _who buy expensive car audio stuff._)
> 
> Again, there has *never* been a properly conducted (level-matched, blind) listening evaluation that has shown any sonic difference between two competently designed nonbroken amplifiers. And you know as well as I do that "warm up" on solid state stuff is a non-issue. On a tube amp, there may be some differences as the expensive light-bulbs start glowing.


Man, I'll bet you and I could put down some serious brews discussing audio. We would probably agre 95% of the time. 

Perception is key. If a guy buys an expensive amp of any brand and thinks it sounds better, than that is all that matters in the end anyway. Or if he thinks it sucks, that matters too...

Actuallym I was at an Autosounds 2000 training with Clark and Navone. (This was back on mt MTX/Xtant days in the 90s.) I'm sure you know about Clarks challenge. Listen to the same 10 tracks on 2 different amplifiers and if youcan tell the difference, he'd give you $10k. Nobdy that I know of ever accomplished this, reinforcing your beliefs. BUT, if you take two solid state MOSFET amps and stiffly regulate the opperating parameters, it would seem impossible to to tell the difference. I'm sure I could not do it, but on the same token, I cannot factually say it is impossible. I simply do not know if it is possible.

Trick question for you - If you had 2 equal power amplifiers, on with T0218 devices 1+1 and the other with TO218 devices 2+2, would there be a difference in sound? During start-up? Continuously?

Another question for you. NOT a test or anything like that, just curious to see what your thoughts are... If you have an ampo that runs super hot, will it sound differently than an amp that runs nice and cool?

What about this? Will an Class A/B amp that has an extrenely long bias period on the output device switching sound different? With a super long bias period, the devices would have less switching and be alot more like a true Class A, but still a Class A/B.


----------



## Grizz Archer

mmiller said:


> Grizz, The PPi review in PAS was for the Pc15, not the 12. It got a very high review... I just read it the other day...


Damn, I need to learn how to type. I make so many stupiud errors. Yeah, Garry told me it was the best 15" he has ever heard. I bet he says that to all of the guys! lol :laugh:


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> Let me know about your vehicle and musical tastes for the Art SQ 8". I have a pair of them in my Jeep tuned to 26Hz and they are pretty badass for such a small box.
> 
> As for the components, Maybe this company you mentioned has the same basket or a close version, or maybe a phaseplug. But I assure you, NOBODY has a 6.5"/2.5"/.8" set like mine. But I would not be suprised if another company has a same or similar part. Unless it is custom tooled for stupid amounts of money, China will whore it out to everybody.
> 
> Send me pics as you progress!


I listen to about as wide a range of music as one can imagine. I do find myself leaning more towards country over the last few years (part time writer, although its becoming more full time...who knew?) I would probably either do two ported or 2-3 sealed. Not sure (advice welcome) It will be in the center console of my ram quad cab. I will either run them off a mono that I have that gives anywhere from 500 4ohm to 1500ish at 1ohm. I am sort of a power freak! I might end up going back to a couple 4 channels to run my whole system. I always seem to have the best results that way. I can fit two 4.920's. Or the two kenwood xr-s4 that are in route to me? I am more then happy with my components but for ****s and giggles I plan on trying out the ppi 3ways if I can get them for a decent price. If they stay they stay, if not......well lets just say it wouldnt be the first set out the door, not so much cause I dont like em.....


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> I listen to about as wide a range of music as one can imagine. I do find myself leaning more towards country over the last few years (part time writer, although its becoming more full time...who knew?) I would probably either do two ported or 2-3 sealed. Not sure (advice welcome) It will be in the center console of my ram quad cab. I will either run them off a mono that I have that gives anywhere from 500 4ohm to 1500ish at 1ohm. I am sort of a power freak! I might end up going back to a couple 4 channels to run my whole system. I always seem to have the best results that way. I can fit two 4.920's. Or the two kenwood xr-s4 that are in route to me? I am more then happy with my components but for ****s and giggles I plan on trying out the ppi 3ways if I can get them for a decent price. If they stay they stay, if not......well lets just say it wouldnt be the first set out the door, not so much cause I dont like em.....


Definitely ported. All the bass in Country music is from a bass guitar and kick drum. The impact of a vented enclosure, couple with a low tuning, will definitely get you excited. The 500 at 4 ohm is a bit high, but a power freak like you will know how to tune. I actually use a 900 wrms D-Tower amp that puts out about 350 at 4 ohms, so I had a perfect match for the 360 watt pair. The 3-way comps were designed to go up against $800 - $1500 sets but only have an MSRP of $449. Yay, I win!


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> Definitely ported. All the bass in Country music is from a bass guitar and kick drum. The impact of a vented enclosure, couple with a low tuning, will definitely get you excited. The 500 at 4 ohm is a bit high, but a power freak like you will know how to tune. I actually use a 900 wrms D-Tower amp that puts out about 350 at 4 ohms, so I had a perfect match for the 360 watt pair. The 3-way comps were designed to go up against $800 - $1500 sets but only have an MSRP of $449. Yay, I win!


I will be the judge of that
I like the power just so I can run the equipment with less effort ie: 900watt d-tower. 
I am thinking that the power from a heavy duty 4 channel would do nicely on them. I will be sure to do my usual half assed review of them when I get them and put in! Thanks again Grizz!


----------



## Grizz Archer

Yes you will be the judge and I will look forward to your feedback.


----------



## rexroadj

I take back anything about the similar 3ways....upon further review, the set in question (cadence CVL3-WK: 6.5) do not really share anything except the shape of the midbass driver! 
Any idea when the 3ways will be available on the market or are they already? Do I understand correctly when you say that the midrange and tweeters were designed to play best on the dash/apillars? For example.....I have a dodge ram (didnt you do an install in one? lots of white?) I can put them in the pillars or I have done pods on the dash panel up top to allow a setup slightly more on axis....Is the xover designed with this in mind or am I back out in left field?


----------



## AudioDave

LOL exactly.


----------



## AudioDave

Grizz Archer said:


> Damn, I need to learn how to type. I make so many stupiud errors. Yeah, Garry told me it was the best 15" he has ever heard. I bet he says that to all of the guys! lol :laugh:


LOL Garry says that about everything. Also watch your typing it can get you in trouble lol *snicker*


----------



## PPI_GUY

For anyone interested in reading the PAS review, here you go...

PASMAG | PERFORMANCE AUTO AND SOUND - Precision Power - Power Class PC.15

...that sub certainly is different _looking._


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> Hmmmm... You know way more about this stuff than I do. The problem would like the same with any really expensive part. You spend a ton fo money in engineering, then tooling, then production, only to find out that nobody will pay the price and the only guys really interested in it want is sponsored. The rest sit on the shelf. I'll have to think about it... Thanx for the input.


Well, that's a business judgment that's fair enough. And I know nothing about licensing costs or anything like that. (I should also note that, in the case of Trinnov at least, the Sherwood Newcastle receiver with it seems very buggy and took them I think longer to go from announcement to product than it took JBL with the MS-8!) 

But there is technology out there that could be interesting and lead to better sounding cars. Especially for novices, who would have no idea how to even approach something like a Bitone or an AudioControl DQXS but can follow directions such as "place microphone here, then there." I hope there are others willing to pay for genuine advances, and I think the recent success of compact Class D amps suggests that they are. 



Grizz Archer said:


> Perception is key. If a guy buys an expensive amp of any brand and thinks it sounds better, than that is all that matters in the end anyway. Or if he thinks it sucks, that matters too...


There's something to that, but then the same argument applies similarly to boutique speaker or RCA wires, or in the home audio context things like AC power cords or stands that raise speaker wires above the ground, etc. Any reasonably intelligent person knows that it's all just delusion.



Grizz Archer said:


> 0k. Nobdy that I know of ever accomplished this, reinforcing your beliefs.


The Clark thing is an intentional bit of showmanship that does have some underlying truth. In more scientific tests, a _perfect_ score isn't required, just a high enough ratio of positive identifications to false identifications to be statistically significant. 



Grizz Archer said:


> I'm sure I could not do it, but on the same token, I cannot factually say it is impossible. I simply do not know if it is possible.


But the line of scholarly literature on the audibility of electronic components when the only variable under test is the actual sound of the devices under test since at least the early 1980s leads to an extremely strong presumption in favor of no sonic difference. See, e.g., Clark ("DUMAX" David, not Richard), _High-Resolution Subjective Testing Using a Double-Blind Comparator_, 30 J. Audio Eng. Soc. 5 (May, 1982), at 320.



Grizz Archer said:


> Trick question for you - If you had 2 equal power amplifiers, on with T0218 devices 1+1 and the other with TO218 devices 2+2, would there be a difference in sound? During start-up? Continuously?


If they were both linear in frequency response and otherwise competently designed, operated within their linear limits, and properly level matched I see no reason to say even "maybe."

Someone who knows/cares more about the intricacies of audio circuitry may see something I missed. All I know is that the cumulative weight of controlled subjective listening evaluations lead any reasonable person to presume that any two amps from reasonably reputable makers of a given power level are interchangeable commodity parts. From a sonic perspective. Now, do some layouts have advantages over others in reliability, durability, ease of production, thermal management, etc.? I think that's fair to stipulate. And a reasonable person interested in car audio will try to seek out stuff within her/his budget that is well-designed from those standpoints, as well as attractive and feature-laden. But those issues are all separate and distinct from _sonics._



Grizz Archer said:


> Another question for you. NOT a test or anything like that, just curious to see what your thoughts are... If you have an ampo that runs super hot, will it sound differently than an amp that runs nice and cool?


It can, if it runs so hot that it shuts down. 

Alternately, the hotter amp would probably be less durable, because electronic parts break down more quickly at higher temperatures. Certainly, it would also create install annoyances, because one generally has less placement flexibility with something hot than with something cooler-running.



Grizz Archer said:


> What about this? Will an Class A/B amp that has an extrenely long bias period on the output device switching sound different? With a super long bias period, the devices would have less switching and be alot more like a true Class A, but still a Class A/B.


There is nothing in the peer-reviewed scholarly literature to remotely suggest that trained listeners can tell the difference between Class A and Class AB amps, so I don't see why one would answer "yes." But between them, I would presume the one with an extremely long bias period would run hotter, and thus (all else equal) prefer the other one.

I would add that a competently designed tube amp, or Class G amp, or BASH amp, or Class D amp, of the same output and bandwidth, so long as distortion products fall within known "just noticeable differences," will sound identical to the above two amps as well.


----------



## Thoraudio

I will say that the wrong amount of A bias may put the crossover distortion into the audible zone. But that would be measurable and not the product of audio magic.


----------



## AAAAAAA

What is the xover points on that PPI 3 way?
How about the xmax for that ppi inch?

I am finding it hard to find any pertinent info on the line.


----------



## rexroadj

http://www.precisionpower.com/pccompcatalog.html 3rd paragraph (I think) explains the xover points.....No clue about the xmax?


----------



## AAAAAAA

400hz and 4khz.... nice


----------



## rexroadj

Yeah, I like that. Especially for my particular setup. I think it will work nicely in my stock (sort of) locations. I really like the price....At least for that price I can try them out without a huge risk (dont get me wrong, I dont like throwing money out the window). For the price, if it works out well I am super happy with the bargain. Otherwise I will just sell them to someone on here at a good price but at least be able to fiddle with em for some time.


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> Let me know about your vehicle and musical tastes for the Art SQ 8". I have a pair of them in my Jeep tuned to 26Hz and they are pretty badass for such a small box.
> 
> As for the components, Maybe this company you mentioned has the same basket or a close version, or maybe a phaseplug. But I assure you, NOBODY has a 6.5"/2.5"/.8" set like mine. But I would not be suprised if another company has a same or similar part. Unless it is custom tooled for stupid amounts of money, China will whore it out to everybody.
> 
> Send me pics as you progress!


I like the tuning for 26 (I tune LOW as well) what size exactly is your "small" box?


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> I like the tuning for 26 (I tune LOW as well) what size exactly is your "small" box?


1.5 ft^3 with a flared vent, but anything ereasonable will work...


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> Well, that's a business judgment that's fair enough. And I know nothing about licensing costs or anything like that. (I should also note that, in the case of Trinnov at least, the Sherwood Newcastle receiver with it seems very buggy and took them I think longer to go from announcement to product than it took JBL with the MS-8!)
> 
> But there is technology out there that could be interesting and lead to better sounding cars. Especially for novices, who would have no idea how to even approach something like a Bitone or an AudioControl DQXS but can follow directions such as "place microphone here, then there." I hope there are others willing to pay for genuine advances, and I think the recent success of compact Class D amps suggests that they are.
> 
> 
> 
> There's something to that, but then the same argument applies similarly to boutique speaker or RCA wires, or in the home audio context things like AC power cords or stands that raise speaker wires above the ground, etc. Any reasonably intelligent person knows that it's all just delusion.
> 
> 
> 
> The Clark thing is an intentional bit of showmanship that does have some underlying truth. In more scientific tests, a _perfect_ score isn't required, just a high enough ratio of positive identifications to false identifications to be statistically significant.
> 
> 
> 
> But the line of scholarly literature on the audibility of electronic components when the only variable under test is the actual sound of the devices under test since at least the early 1980s leads to an extremely strong presumption in favor of no sonic difference. See, e.g., Clark ("DUMAX" David, not Richard), _High-Resolution Subjective Testing Using a Double-Blind Comparator_, 30 J. Audio Eng. Soc. 5 (May, 1982), at 320.
> 
> 
> 
> If they were both linear in frequency response and otherwise competently designed, operated within their linear limits, and properly level matched I see no reason to say even "maybe."
> 
> Someone who knows/cares more about the intricacies of audio circuitry may see something I missed. All I know is that the cumulative weight of controlled subjective listening evaluations lead any reasonable person to presume that any two amps from reasonably reputable makers of a given power level are interchangeable commodity parts. From a sonic perspective. Now, do some layouts have advantages over others in reliability, durability, ease of production, thermal management, etc.? I think that's fair to stipulate. And a reasonable person interested in car audio will try to seek out stuff within her/his budget that is well-designed from those standpoints, as well as attractive and feature-laden. But those issues are all separate and distinct from _sonics._
> 
> 
> 
> It can, if it runs so hot that it shuts down.
> 
> Alternately, the hotter amp would probably be less durable, because electronic parts break down more quickly at higher temperatures. Certainly, it would also create install annoyances, because one generally has less placement flexibility with something hot than with something cooler-running.
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing in the peer-reviewed scholarly literature to remotely suggest that trained listeners can tell the difference between Class A and Class AB amps, so I don't see why one would answer "yes." But between them, I would presume the one with an extremely long bias period would run hotter, and thus (all else equal) prefer the other one.
> 
> I would add that a competently designed tube amp, or Class G amp, or BASH amp, or Class D amp, of the same output and bandwidth, so long as distortion products fall within known "just noticeable differences," will sound identical to the above two amps as well.


Holy crap man! Look, you and I need to sit down soemwhere and have a few brews so we do not spend our life on here. We could go on for days... I do have to say that in regards to speaker wire and rcas. All of the differences is twisted theory of varying guages in the same conductor for proper skinning effect and such do all make perfect sense, but I am not confident that I would be able to hear the difference. Who knows? Not me honestly... In fact, Back in my install days, I would take the color of the car, for example blue, and make my own rcas that were blue/white for highs, blue/grey for mids and blue/black for bass. I bought teflon coated pure copper, twisted them up, soldered on ends and they worked perfectly. And I made a buttload of cash doing them... :^)


----------



## ChrisB

rexroadj said:


> I like the tuning for 26 (I tune LOW as well) what size exactly is your "small" box?





Grizz Archer said:


> 1.5 ft^3 with a flared vent, but anything ereasonable will work...


Am I reading this right? Grizz is rocking a pair of 8s, in 1.5 cubic feet net tuned to 26 Hz? My curiosity is now peaked.


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> Holy crap man! Look, you and I need to sit down soemwhere and have a few brews so we do not spend our life on here.


Lemme know if you're headed down to ATL. 



Grizz Archer said:


> We could go on for days... I do have to say that in regards to speaker wire and rcas. All of the differences is twisted theory of varying guages in the same conductor for proper skinning effect and such do all make perfect sense, but I am not confident that I would be able to hear the difference. Who knows? Not me honestly...


We all know. Except for cases of induced noise, which can happen when a cable is improperly specified for a job, nobody's ever been able to hear a difference under blind conditions. Unless the wire is really designed to be a crude tone control, such as MIT stuff with their highpass filter. (Doesn't effect most speakers, but measurably and audibly dulls the highs on speakers with wonky impedance curves up high such as Martin-Logan electrostatic panels.)



Grizz Archer said:


> Back in my install days, I would take the color of the car, for example blue, and make my own rcas that were blue/white for highs, blue/grey for mids and blue/black for bass. I bought teflon coated pure copper, twisted them up, soldered on ends and they worked perfectly.


I did something similar, with mil-spec (silver-plated OFHC, teflon dielectric) because when I was 17 I was ignorant enough to think it might make a difference. I remember you writing about your color-coding on RAC back in the day but didn't want to buy 6 spools of wire for a single use.

(Speaking of which, damn that Teflon is annoying, or my wire stripper sucks. I recently replaced some ugly-looking - but fine sounding - copper with 16AWG mil-spec stuff I had bought years and years ago, and working with it was a huge pain compared to my trusty old Tiff and Streetwires stuff.)

Hell, I still buy RCA wires - and Techflex for the speaker cables - to match the color of my car.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Do any of you guys know if there is a way to post a poll? I am considering having people vote on some concepts or cosmetics for new products. Just wondering if there is an easy way that will also keep running totals for multiple choice questions...


----------



## AudioDave

Grizz Archer said:


> Do any of you guys know if there is a way to post a poll? I am considering having people vote on some concepts or cosmetics for new products. Just wondering if there is an easy way that will also keep running totals for multiple choice questions...


Hey bud I will get you one off a diff site so it cannot be rigged. I will send you a link after its done.


----------



## 86mr2

AudioDave said:


> Hey bud I will get you one off a diff site


Like your "installs"? :laugh:


----------



## rexroadj

Ok, ordered my art 8s.....I will probably have to try out the box at 1.25ish and I will probably shoot for 28hz. I will do a detailed review on it! 
Thanks grizz.....
I dont know if you already answered it or not, but are the 3ways available? I didnt even ask the store if they can get them....I will shoot them an email and see. I am getting decent prices from them so we will see?


----------



## PPI-ART

Grizz,
when do we get to see the art series line of amps. I am having a meltdown here man. I got cashhhhh to burn. 

Please for the love of god. LOL


----------



## AudioDave

PPI-ART said:


> Grizz,
> when do we get to see the art series line of amps. I am having a meltdown here man. I got cashhhhh to burn.
> 
> Please for the love of god. LOL


He has the graphics now, time for the other people to cast and silk. It will be worth the wait tho :0)


----------



## AudioDave

86mr2 said:


> Like your "installs"? :laugh:


?? whatever that means.


----------



## ErinH

AudioDave said:


> ?? whatever that means.


Since you asked, I'm pretty sure he's talking about this:
AudioDaves 1996 Blazer
most notably, this:
http://www.caraudio.com/forum/car-a...394-audiodaves-1996-blazer-6.html#post7140908


Question: Since I copied and pasted that link, does it mean I built it as well?

/Audiodave logic


----------



## AudioDave

bikinpunk said:


> Since you asked, I'm pretty sure he's talking about this:
> AudioDaves 1996 Blazer
> most notably, this:
> AudioDaves 1996 Blazer
> 
> 
> Question: Since I copied and pasted that link, does it mean I built it as well?
> 
> /Audiodave logic


Go back and read it. I posted proof. Dont go to my threads anymore then ok because I really dont care.


----------



## ErinH

AudioDave said:


> Go back and read it. *I posted proof.* Dont go to my threads anymore then ok because I really dont care.




I don't wanna muck up this thread, but you're lying. You were caught in a lie. There is no "proof". I KNOW the guy who did the lambo. You're a liar. You got caught. Man up. Or quit whining about it.

The reason I posted it is because you asked. If you don't want people calling you out for your lies, then:
#1) Stop making yourself a target
by
#2) Quit stealing pictures of others' builds and passing them off as your own
and finally
#3) Quit lying... we (the rest of the world) were taught this in kindergarten. If you need to go back and re-learn that, then do it. 

while I'm at it:
#4) Quit acting like you don't care. Quit saying you don't care. If you didn't, you wouldn't respond. You care because you got caught lying. You wouldn't need to care if you had admitted it, or for that matter, simply hadn't tried to take credit for something you didn't do. Honesty; try it.


Edit: Added Quote


----------



## AudioDave

Grizz Archer said:


> Whoa! Man, I made a simple comment to Dave and mentioned a tube amp and everybody goes psycho? Dave, this is why I do not norammly come on forums. A discussion is one thing, but the attitudes are unbearable...


I am there with you man, I am about done and so are a few others like us on here trying to help.


----------



## AudioDave

Grizz Archer said:


> Alright guys, I need some help here... It was just recently that I decided to start checking out the forums again. I have been on some just to find a bunch of whining, bitching and a bunch of slander. This is the reason that most manufacturers do not contribute to the forums anymore. I want to help people and learn fromt hem as well. it helps me and our dying industry.
> 
> Regarding Audio Dave. Dave is a cool cat. Dave was heavily involved back in the pioneering days of true high end audio. Hell, he has the original artowrk for the Art series amps, ehich is what got us to start talking. Turns out we have alot of the same friends from 15-20 years ago. I would not be surprised if we actually knew each other back then and just forgot. It would be almost impossible for us not to have had hot wigns and beer together down on Mill Ave in Tempe, AZ together! LOL I do not know who everybody is on here and people do not know me either.
> 
> I just want a cool forum where enthusiasts hang out and like to talk audio. In the days of Rec Aduio Car, it was a blast but then all of the primadonnas who thuink they know everything ruined it and all of the manufacturers went away. Heated discussions are fine, I enjoy them actually. Myabe you guys can shed some light on the forum for me... Is this a cool place to teach and learn at the same time? Or is it a place for bashing on brands and people? If DIY is a cool place, I'm down for doing whatever I can to help people and gain research for myself for future projects.
> 
> Thanx in advance for your input!


Amen. Thats all I have to say.


----------



## AudioDave

bikinpunk said:


> I don't wanna muck up this thread, but you're lying. You were caught in a lie. There is no "proof". I KNOW the guy who did the lambo. You're a liar. You got caught. Man up. Or quit whining about it.
> 
> The reason I posted it is because you asked. If you don't want people calling you out for your lies, then:
> #1) Stop making yourself a target
> by
> #2) Quit stealing pictures of others' builds and passing them off as your own
> and finally
> #3) Quit lying... we (the rest of the world) was taught this in kidergarten. If you need to go back and re-learn that, then do it.
> 
> while I'm at it:
> #4) Quit acting like you don't care. Quit saying you don't care. If you didn't, you wouldn't respond. You care because you got caught lying. You wouldn't need to care if you had admitted it, or for that matter, simply hadn't tried to take credit for something you didn't do. Honesty; try it.


I dont care. And I never said I did the lambo or whatever and the proof was about the Cavalier they all said wasnt mine. The note on the gallery says what I did and didnt as far as the others. Thats it.


----------



## ErinH

AudioDave said:


> And I never said I did the lamo or whatever. The note on the gallery says what I did and didnt. Thats it.


dude, I copied images of your gallery and the pictures you posted there. I posted a link to an image of your gallery where there is no such 'note' attached. Do you want me to post them here, too? You never said anything about installs you did and didn't do until you were caught.
for that matter, you might as well have a note on your entire gallery saying you didn't do any of them. We've managed to link 2 installs out of 4 on your gallery you were passing off as your own which were done by _real_ professional installers.



AudioDave said:


> I dont care.


You do care. Quit lying. 

You can't even lie about not caring. You leave a trail of proof with every post. You might as well stop posting; *you have no credibility*. Had you simply admitted that you got busted, we would have all moved on. 



Furthermore, since you're trying to speak down to the rest of this community by saying that polls here are "rigged" (see your quote below), I'm calling you out for your ********, too. It's funny that you try to discredit a poll here, yet your entire install gallery and nearly every post you've made here and over on ca.com have been nothing but disingenuous. 



AudioDave said:


> Hey bud I will get you one off a diff site so it cannot be rigged. I will send you a link after its done.






Edit: Matter of fact, so everyone here knows what we're talking about:


bikinpunk said:


> so, just in case he decides to delete the evidence...
> 
> his install gallery page (note he doesn't have anything about anyone else having done these installs, implying they are his):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, the links to the guys who REALLY did the installs...
> Suburban by Kyle Buck Designs: Combining your Taste and My Creativity......KB Designs Car Audio
> Lambo by Jeff Smith: Lambo' Gallardo aka "MELLO YELLOW" - CARSOUND.COM Forum
> 
> 
> I'm sure a little more digging will turn up the other installs he's claiming as his.


----------



## DS-21

AudioDave said:


> Amen. Thats all I have to say.


One minute later...



AudioDave said:


> [something proving his previous statement to be a lie]


----------



## 86mr2

AudioDave said:


> Amen. Thats all I have to say.


Ironically, and I suppose by now, typically - that is _actually _what Grizz had to say.


----------



## AudioDave

bikinpunk said:


> dude, I copied images of your gallery and the pictures you posted there. I posted a link to an image of your gallery where there is no such 'note' attached. Do you want me to post them here, too? You never said anything about installs you did and didn't do until you were caught.
> for that matter, you might as well have a note on your entire gallery saying you didn't do any of them. We've managed to link 2 installs out of 4 on your gallery you were passing off as your own which were done by _real_ professional installers.
> 
> You forgot one important one idiot.....oh and it wasnt added later its dated on CA so sorry ... your wrong.
> 
> Start digging on the Blazer and the Cavalier, I already proved they are mine.


----------



## ChrisB

Explain how this blatant LIE where you pretended to do Kyle Buckner's install was a typo:










Edit: I really feel sorry for anyone who associates AudioDave with the new PPI because he is going to cost PPI a good bit of sales. First, PPI had to rejuvenate the name that DEI ran into the ground. Next you have AudioDave... Now I see why Grizz doesn't come to the forums much.


----------



## subwoofery

Can you please take this to another thread. This one is about the PPI amps. 

Thank you 
Kelvin 

PS: yeah I know I'm not a moderator, just a fellow DIYer... but still...


----------



## AudioDave

ChrisB said:


> Explain how this blatant LIE where you pretended to do Kyle Buckner's install was a typo:
> 
> 
> Christ - Chris do you have anything better to do then troll and not read? It was already posted how and where it was a typo. You guys gonna pull it all over here too? It was over using a jig for christs sakes. LET IT GO.


----------



## 86mr2

Must... resist... cat pics!

Oh what the hell:










Apologies to the OP, Grizz, and people interested in discussing the new amps.


----------



## emperorjj1

why are you apologizing?? the conversation about amps ended on page 18, from page 19-26 its all ******** so **** it post up some more funny pictures


----------



## imjustjason

Glad PPI is trying to make a comeback. Sorry audiodave is involved.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz Archer said:


> Do any of you guys know if there is a way to post a poll? I am considering having people vote on some concepts or cosmetics for new products. Just wondering if there is an easy way that will also keep running totals for multiple choice questions...


THIS is nice to see! A manufacturer willing to consider input from the very people who will be buying their product. People like to feel that their opinions really do count or that someone is actually listening when they speak. Good move IMHO.


----------



## rexroadj

Ok, #1 Dave please just leave. You are clearly not wanted here PERIOD! You have contributed nothing but hostility to the forum in every thread you have posted in. If you cant contribute or be willing to learn anything the just go away! Sorry, its just the way it is.

#2. When bikinpunk gets involved in banter like this it must be REALLY bad! From any post I have ever read of his this is not his m.o.

#3 I think having grizz on here letting us know about the REAL deal with his respective companys products is vital. Just as it is having JL, and JBL represented. (isnt there someone from alpine every once and a while too?)

#4 I would love a poll for the art choices....I think its a great idea and would be flattering to the site. Whether they use it as there final choice would be a different story but to involve us would be pretty cool! 
Just my 2cents. I love new products and like to see companys try and advance there stuff. 

#5.....This really doesnt relate to the thread very much so I feel kinda bad asking but I would be interested to hear from Grizz, DS-21 (I think this is up your ally and would love to hear your opinion on it) as well as everyone elses thoughts on it.
Here is my question..... I will try and tie it in a little to ppi art! We all know the old arts were tanks and are still sought after and still run like tanks...Think about how old these things are!!!!! (Aside from the sound discussion) People buy them for there long term reliability (same goes for the mcintosh, orion, etc...) Do you guys think that (Regardless of the manufacturer) the new class-d amps and the like technology (I know class-d isnt new tech, but its taking over the scene now) will have the same long lasting ability? I know nothing of the "guts" of an amp, I am not a tech guy, dont need to....Thats what you guys are for  I dont see why not, but I just wonder if its more of a thing like most things made today. They are cheaper but more expendable. You break it and toss it. Another question would be is there a difference in the parts for class-d etc.... as far as durability? Are all class-d amps the same? Like stock cars? Just curious if there will be talks of class d amps 20yrs from now like we talk about the old arts? I am not asking this to start a debate, I am seriously attempting to learn something. I am certain a lot of opinions will be heard, but I am certain some actual data will be supplied as well (ds-21, etc...) Thanks in advance


----------



## ErinH

ChrisB said:


> Explain how this blatant LIE where you pretended to do Kyle Buckner's install was a typo:


Definition of pwnt. 

Now that Audiodave has been proven as a blatant liar, there's nothing else to prove. 

Back OT...


----------



## DS-21

rexroadj said:


> #5.....This really doesnt relate to the thread very much so I feel kinda bad asking but I would be interested to hear from Grizz, DS-21 (I think this is up your ally and would love to hear your opinion on it) as well as everyone elses thoughts on it.
> Here is my question..... I will try and tie it in a little to ppi art! We all know the old arts were tanks and are still sought after and still run like tanks...Think about how old these things are!!!!! (Aside from the sound discussion) People buy them for there long term reliability (same goes for the mcintosh, orion, etc...) Do you guys think that (Regardless of the manufacturer) the new class-d amps and the like technology (I know class-d isnt new tech, but its taking over the scene now) will have the same long lasting ability? I know nothing of the "guts" of an amp, I am not a tech guy, dont need to....Thats what you guys are for


Like you, if someone shows me a picture of amp guts it generally just looks like a bunch of parts to me. (I can generally tell Class D amps from others, because of the chokes.)

So here's my lay opinion on the matter: I honestly don't know. I'm neither a design engineer or an expert on the longevity of electronic components. In fact, my only interest in them is the research showing that from a sonic perspective there's nothing to choose between them absent issues such as poor shielding or other noise induction.

One thing that seems to be true about modern Class D amps compared to older amps is that the more primitive construction techniques used in the old ones make them considerably easier and more cost-effective to repair. (The same "largely unrepairable" critique applies to most current AB amps, too.) For some people, that's an important factor. I'm not trying to discount people who enjoy that kind of thing, or get subjective satisfaction from the _thought_ that they could repair their amp if need be even though they probably never will.

However, let me ask you a question: does extreme amplifier longevity really matter? If you start from the true (or at least never disproven in a valid listening test) proposition that competently-designed and nonbroken amps are all commodity parts, there's no sonic reason why keeping an amp is better than buying a new one. And amps have been falling in price, and will likely continue to do so. (More power and/or more features for less money.) So, if an amp lasts only 15 years rather than 30, if it was cheaper to begin with and its replacement will more likely than not be both cheaper in real terms (actual pricetag may be the same or higher, but consider the relative value of money) and objectively higher performing (smaller, more power, more features, more efficient), then what's the harm of disconnecting the battery and unscrewing a few set screws?



rexroadj said:


> Another question would be is there a difference in the parts for class-d etc.... as far as durability? Are all class-d amps the same? Like stock cars?


I would expect that to not be the case. There are many circuit types and chipsets, and some may have advantages over the long term compared to others. Also, some are far more complex than others, e.g. an unregulated Planet Audio BB175.4B vs. a JL HD600/4 with that RIPS powersupply. Also, one should expect variation in the quality of parts used, to meet price points or to fit into a given form-factor, etc.



rexroadj said:


> Just curious if there will be talks of class d amps 20yrs from now like we talk about the old arts?


Let me give you an analogy: given an iMac, is there any reason to pine for an Apple II?

I would guess no, except for the nostalgia that comes from people who got into car-fi in this epoch waxing about the stuff they wanted or had when they were kids. The same factors that are pushing the current affection for 1990s gear, basically. But the difference is (I think, could be wrong) that a lot more of us (myself included) got into car-fi in the 1990s than are getting into it now. OEM systems are much better now than they were then, and we didn't have smartphones and such to soak up some of our discretionary income.


----------



## rexroadj

Wow....I knew I could count on you. I value your technical opinion on this stuff. That was a very well thought out and educated answer and I appreciate it. Everything you said makes perfect sense. I suppose I was asking about the 20years from now thing because of nostalgia but I think the majority of people that talk about the art series and others.... is because the still run today without issue and there are only a handfull of others that can see the type of abuse they saw back in the day and still tick like a clock now. I agree about the fact that it really doesnt matter how long something lasts if its really not cheaper to replace then buy new in most cases (I dont think it used to be that way but Im not sure. I never had an issue) I suppose it was just one of those things where it was more of an investment so you know you dont ever have to give it a shot. For example: I always ran Mcintosh, I had dozens of them (I sort of collected them, but also ran a ton of amps at once) I knew I never had to worry about them, you would really have to go out of your way to hurt one and even then I dont know if you really could. I had most of them for 10+ years without an issue. If something was wrong with my system I knew right away that was one thing there was no need to look at. I was willing to pay the extra $ for that reason. Again your %100 right with the stock systems taking away a need for a lot of people to even begin to think about and spend the $ on aftermarket gear. I am also at a point where I dont care so much about having the same amp for decades because I just dont have the time/patience for it (that and I change my system with the wind...only to try new things). I have had numerous amounts of great sounding systems I could have been more then happy with. I just like to try new things. If anyone thinks this is a worthwhile topic (I think we all agree this doesnt belong here, sorry) then I will start a new one. I dont know if its kind of a who cares or everyone else already knows the answers type of thing or not. Either way Thanks DS-21 for your response, and thanks to anyone else that chimes in!


----------



## quality_sound

I'll add this, Class D amps run cooler. Cooler amps means longer lasting parts. Assuming they're competantly built there's no reason they shouldn't last as long as some good old school amps.


----------



## rexroadj

thats also an excelent point too!


----------



## AudioDave

imjustjason said:


> Glad PPI is trying to make a comeback. Sorry audiodave is involved.


Sorry I am not going anywhere and am continuing to work with them regardless of what some say. 

If you dont like it, dont buy the new art stuff or bother on the threads on here.


----------



## AudioDave

quality_sound said:


> I'll add this, Class D amps run cooler. Cooler amps means longer lasting parts. Assuming they're competantly built there's no reason they shouldn't last as long as some good old school amps.


This isnt always the case. The old mosfets ran fine and very few were class D. The old art series are still being used and work fine. Like most amps, taking care of them and not over working them is what makes components last.


----------



## PPI_GUY

I can tell you that from a mechanical standpoint heat is the biggest enemy. Anything that creates or operates under friction will always be at odds with heat. Any engine or motor will lose efficiency as heat buildsup.
I can't imagine heat being good for electrical components either. Maybe that's why so many of the old high current "cheater" amps you see have either been thru the ringer, repaired or left for dead a long time ago? Some people thought you could wire an amp down to a near dead short and it would still work. And in reality I have seen some amps working great at amazingly low loads. But, I can't imagine those amps being very durable under those circumstances. 
The 'new' Class D full-range stuff is the future. It's more efficient, easier on electrical systems and yeah, produces less heat. So, how long before we see 1000 watt amps the size of TV remotes or smaller?


----------



## AudioDave

PPI_GUY said:


> I can tell you that from a mechanical standpoint heat is the biggest enemy. Anything that creates or operates under friction will always be at odds with heat. Any engine or motor will lose efficiency as heat buildsup.
> I can't imagine heat being good for electrical components either. Maybe that's why so many of the old high current "cheater" amps you see have either been thru the ringer, repaired or left for dead a long time ago? Some people thought you could wire an amp down to a near dead short and it would still work. And in reality I have seen some amps working great at amazingly low loads. But, I can't imagine those amps being very durable under those circumstances.
> The 'new' Class D full-range stuff is the future. It's more efficient, easier on electrical systems and yeah, produces less heat. So, how long before we see 1000 watt amps the size of TV remotes or smaller?


I agree totally with this too....


----------



## 86mr2

AudioDave said:


> Sorry I am not going anywhere


Don't you change Audiodave, we love you just the way you are.



AudioDave said:


> If you dont like it, dont ... [edited for comic effect] .... bother on the threads on here.


Wait, you mean you are going to clutter up _every _thread on DIYMA? Damn, I may need to rethink that whole "Don't you change Audiodave" thing.

C'mon, fess up. Are you really the bad attitude 16 year old busted on the Blazer thread on CA? I cannot help noticing you have not replied to the latest, no doubt groundless attacks over there. Coincidence? Lack of time? Done run out of ideas? The world wonders...


----------



## PPI_GUY

Well, this thread keeps taking bizarre turns. Everytime I click on it, I hear the theme music from The Twilight Zone.


----------



## ChrisB

More like Tales from the Darkside!


----------



## quality_sound

AudioDave said:


> This isnt always the case. The old mosfets ran fine and very few were class D. The old art series are still being used and work fine. Like most amps, taking care of them and not over working them is what makes components last.


Apparently you didn't comprehend what I wrote. I didn't say old school amps were bad or weren't durable. I didn't even infer that. All I said was a modern Class D amp, competantly constructed will run cooler (that's a fact, BTW) and there is no reason it shouldn't last as long as an old school amp.


----------



## WRX/Z28

Is AudioDave actually T-spence?


----------



## 86mr2

WRX/Z28 said:


> Is AudioDave actually T-spence?


Naw, the essque goodness of Infinity Reference comps never came up once.


----------



## Knobby Digital

Give Spense some credit. At least his theories were his own.


----------



## VP Electricity

Look, we've seen the best that Class AB car amps are ever gonna be. 

Whether or not you cosign that Class D does or doesn't or doesn't always sound as good as AB, the differences between them in cost, weight, and efficiency - coupled with how close they are in performance if not functionally equivalent - will keep any manufacturer who can use Excel from advancing the state of the art. 

Class D amps are like flat-screen TVs. Flat-screen TVs are cheap to ship, they are cheaper to power on display, they take up little room on display, they are less fragile and they don't have degaussing problems. They fundamentally changed the game in TV manufacturing and retailing (notice Wal-Mart wasn't a CRT player, but they did become a flat-screen player). For quite a while, flat-screens made TV manufacturing significantly more profitable. 

And that's what Class D amps are. They usually don't need heat sinks. The two biggest costs on an amp BOM are the heat sink extrusion, and the various shipping costs of shipping the extrusion around. 

Most Class D amps don't need any heat sinking at all (read the data sheets). Most of the time the weight of a Class D amp is solely to make it seem more substantial to the potential consumer purchaser. 

So I can't see any Class AB amp coming out advancing the state of the art. I think they are now like CD players became after the 4th generation - exercises in cost extraction rather than in engineering advancement.



> Give Spense some credit. At least his theories were his own.


You mean like, they originated inside his twisted mind, or like, he never convinced anyone else to agree with him? 

Spence was better at English composition.


----------



## Knobby Digital

VP Electricity said:


> You mean like, they originated inside his twisted mind, or like, he never convinced anyone else to agree with him?
> 
> Spence was better at English composition.


They're both true. Apparently the bar has been set so low that those who don't steal what they don't understand can be given credit.

And I agree, excellent wordsmith.


----------



## VP Electricity

Knobby Digital said:


> And I agree, excellent wordsmith.


Dunno that I'd go that far... but I wouldn't confuse tspence's grammar skills with lesser ones, that's all...


----------



## AudioDave

Knobby Digital said:


> They're both true. Apparently the bar has been set so low that those who don't steal what they don't understand can be given credit.
> 
> And I agree, excellent wordsmith.


lol ok


----------



## Knobby Digital

VP Electricity said:


> Dunno that I'd go that far... but I wouldn't confuse tspence's grammar skills with lesser ones, that's all...


The guy coined VBA.

Seriously though, he is lucky he could use a keyboard properly. Could you imagine what would have happened if the dude used AAVE and typed poorly? Motherfuckers hate that ****. Someone would have gone to his town and kicked his ass for sure.


----------



## VP Electricity

AudioDave said:


> lol ok


See?


----------



## Knobby Digital

AudioDave said:


> lol ok


Is that your way of saying "you're welcome"?

Happy Father's Day, BTW.


----------



## benny

An apology about AudioDave


----------



## ENHANCED CUSTOMS

Grizz Archer said:


> Well put. I hope I got it right too! :^) I spend alot of time in Europe. I have been studying their transducer theories for many years. Know that I am the speaker engineer, not the amplifier engineer. I am way too stupid to be an amp engineer. I just understand them. Anyway, I wanted to do a 3-way set of components for over 2 years and finally got the green light. They were slated to ge to Soundstream along with an SQ 8". Trying to develop a whole new PPI in a year was difficult, so I agreed to put the suba dn 3-ways into PPI, which turned out be a good idea. Anyway, if you look at the Power Class PC3.65C components, you will get an idea of what the Art amps will look like. Very classy balck and copper cosmetics, but with the American semi-arrogant original chassis shape. People love the component cosmetics so far, so I think I might be on the right path. We'll see...


Hello Grizz and Dave.
I am a long time SQ guy and brand new to this forum. I have been doing research on the new Soundstream and PPI stuff recently because I am going to start carrying audio again at my shop. Very interested in the new PPI. Our main focus has been for years been full custom car builds, ie chassis, air ride, late model engine swaps, etc now expanding that with audio. I got burned out by the cheapskates in the early part of this century and gave up on car audio as a business. But now have done quite a few systems as of late for nice guys with nice cars and that want quality components, so my interest is back in it. My first system was Alpine 7909 and 3339, 3 PPI blacks, SS reference 10"s, ADS 6.2I plates, and polk 2 way mid tweet plates(dont remember model). Anyways off topic reminescing. I looked and touched the new PPi stuff today at my distributor, and talked to the rep who met me there. Very happy, love the 3 ways, hope they sound as good as they look (we use alot of the Hertz stuff now) but like I was saying want my own line that I can push here. Cant wait for the Art because my car is built for 10's and thats the only diver in the line. Going to do Power amps and mids all around in mine, and Power all around in our show truck to display in it and mine as well. Rep was unsure on timeframe so I was doing some net looking and found this forum. Thanx for the info and insight!


----------



## Audio_Images

ENHANCED CUSTOMS said:


> Hello Grizz and Dave.
> I am a long time SQ guy and brand new to this forum. I have been doing research on the new Soundstream and PPI stuff recently because I am going to start carrying audio again at my shop. Very interested in the new PPI. Our main focus has been for years been full custom car builds, ie chassis, air ride, late model engine swaps, etc now expanding that with audio. I got burned out by the cheapskates in the early part of this century and gave up on car audio as a business. But now have done quite a few systems as of late for nice guys with nice cars and that want quality components, so my interest is back in it. My first system was Alpine 7909 and 3339, 3 PPI blacks, SS reference 10"s, ADS 6.2I plates, and polk 2 way mid tweet plates(dont remember model). Anyways off topic reminescing. I looked and touched the new PPi stuff today at my distributor, and talked to the rep who met me there. Very happy, love the 3 ways, hope they sound as good as they look (we use alot of the Hertz stuff now) but like I was saying want my own line that I can push here. Cant wait for the Art because my car is built for 10's and thats the only diver in the line. Going to do Power amps and mids all around in mine, and Power all around in our show truck to display in it and mine as well. Rep was unsure on timeframe so I was doing some net looking and found this forum. Thanx for the info and insight!


Thank you. Yes the new 3 ways are very sweet and sound incredible. The crossovers are very nice too. The new Art series will be really nice. Trust me they will be worth the wait!


----------



## VP Electricity

Audio_Images said:


> Thank you. Yes the new 3 ways are very sweet and sound incredible. The crossovers are very nice too. The new Art series will be really nice. Trust me they will be worth the wait!


And then I said, "Hey, look, it's AudioDave"


----------



## Audio_Images

VP Electricity said:


> And then I said, "Hey, look, it's AudioDave"


Where? I dont see him? 

Maybe because your a few mins away we should get together and have a drink eh? Lets do that, what do you think?


----------



## Audio_Images

For you PPI Art lovers...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...aphics-restoration-now-avail.html#post1073087


----------



## wdemetrius1

Grizz and AudioDave here is a thought, since you have the original artwork to the ARTS, why not allow those of us that still use them to send them in to be refinished. I'm sure that you would make money doing that. You have one sale right here.


----------



## Audio_Images

wdemetrius1 said:


> Grizz and AudioDave here is a thought, since you have the original artwork to the ARTS, why not allow those of us that still use them to send them in to be refinished. I'm sure that you would make money doing that. You have one sale right here.


Because - like the repairs of the old school, Epsilon does not do that. DEI was the last to do them. OS Repairs are/will be going to be privately contracted out, the same as the art work was/is.

Also refinishing them is not a cheap or easy process. This is why when I redo the art, it is in the finish but not silkscreened and completley baked on as the original were. Also most places to do screenprinting cant fit the amp on the printer so they wont do it. The graphics recreation is a different step. It imbeds the art in the finish and then has a clearcoat over it and rebaked. It is not a vinyl decal just stuck on. There are a few who do that, but it isnt the same by a long shot.

New Art series will be different then the OS. Those will be manufactured with the other artwork from the past, but..... That is all I can tell you on the new ones for now.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Audio_Images said:


> Thank you. Yes the new 3 ways are very sweet and sound incredible. The crossovers are very nice too. The new Art series will be really nice. Trust me they will be worth the wait!


Sample ARTs are due here in a week or two, but since it is so late in the year, it will be a 2011 product. Out 30th anniversary is next year, so there will be a few new goodies...


----------



## wdemetrius1

Audio_Images said:


> Because - like the repairs of the old school, Epsilon does not do that. DEI was the last to do them. OS Repairs are/will be going to be privately contracted out, the same as the art work was/is.
> 
> Also refinishing them is not a cheap or easy process. This is why when I redo the art, it is in the finish but not silkscreened and completley baked on as the original were. Also most places to do screenprinting cant fit the amp on the printer so they wont do it. The graphics recreation is a different step. It imbeds the art in the finish and then has a clearcoat over it and rebaked. It is not a vinyl decal just stuck on. There are a few who do that, but it isnt the same by a long shot.
> 
> New Art series will be different then the OS. Those will be manufactured with the other artwork from the past, but..... That is all I can tell you on the new ones for now.




Do you have any pictures of the ones that you have done. Thanks for the teaser.


----------



## rexroadj

Got my new art series 8s!!!!!!!!!!! I hope to get them in this weekend....It will be a ported enclosure in my center console off a human reign hru.4 (running the whole system) I will let everyone know when they are in and a review is up if anyone cares? I love the look thus far of them!


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Got my new art series 8s!!!!!!!!!!! I hope to get them in this weekend....It will be a ported enclosure in my center console off a human reign hru.4 (running the whole system) I will let everyone know when they are in and a review is up if anyone cares? I love the look thus far of them!


I'm an extremist so I like 8" and smaller subs, or 18" and bigger subs. If you are a small sub guy, I think you'll like them. As you can see, not a single damn penny spent of foo-foo crap. It is a very simple raw SQ driver, OS style...

Let us know what you think. My pair are in about 1.5ft^3 tuned to 26Hz...


----------



## tential

rexroadj said:


> Got my new art series 8s!!!!!!!!!!! I hope to get them in this weekend....It will be a ported enclosure in my center console off a human reign hru.4 (running the whole system) I will let everyone know when they are in and a review is up if anyone cares? I love the look thus far of them!


I just got my SoundStream REF4.400 today. Certainly would like to see a review on that though and how it's all put together.

How does PPI fit in to all the lines that are owned by this one company?


----------



## rexroadj

tential said:


> I just got my SoundStream REF4.400 today. Certainly would like to see a review on that though and how it's all put together.
> 
> How does PPI fit in to all the lines that are owned by this one company?


I think your gonna really like the ss ref. I THINK and I quote "THINK" that the ref amps are probably a little better then the power class although your probably splitting hairs, and it would be dependent on needs. I would say that based on pricing and #s the ppi speakers and subs are probably a little higher end then the soundstream stuff......Again install/need dependant. Again just a guess!


----------



## rexroadj

little eye candy!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 86mr2

rexroadj said:


> little eye candy!!!!!!!!!!


Stamped steel basket?


----------



## tential

rexroadj said:


> I think your gonna really like the ss ref. I THINK and I quote "THINK" that the ref amps are probably a little better then the power class although your probably splitting hairs, and it would be dependent on needs. I would say that based on pricing and #s the ppi speakers and subs are probably a little higher end then the soundstream stuff......Again install/need dependant. Again just a guess!


It's my first build so I hope to be blown away and then brought back to earth and begin the process of making it all better.


----------



## imjustjason

Interesting reading here.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/off-topic/84883-original-ppi-artwork.html


----------



## jonnyanalog

86mr2 said:


> Stamped steel basket?


Guess Grizz was right when he said simple and raw.


----------



## Audio_Images

Wait until you hear the new 3 ways.....


----------



## rexroadj

For anyone interested I have started the review for the art 8"s
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-product-reviews/85092-ppi-art-sq-series-a8sq-review.html


----------



## Grizz Archer

jonnyanalog said:


> Guess Grizz was right when he said simple and raw.


I told you! lol WOudl you guys rather I add foo-foo motor covers, custome tooled gaskets and dustcaps, then lower the magnet grade, and charge double the price? Didn't think so. These are for the purist that wants his cash spent on performance, not cosmetics. BTW, the 12" are finally in stock and shipping...

Sometimes simple is better...


----------



## 86mr2

Grizz Archer said:


> I told you! lol WOudl you guys rather I add foo-foo motor covers, custome tooled gaskets and dustcaps, then lower the magnet grade, and charge double the price? Didn't think so. These are for the purist that wants his cash spent on performance, not cosmetics. BTW, the 12" are finally in stock and shipping...
> 
> Sometimes simple is better...


I presume you are sending some to Matt at ID to Klippel for us then?


----------



## 89grand

86mr2 said:


> I presume you are sending some to Matt at ID to Klippel for us then?



That would be great except he doesn't know how to use it apparently.


----------



## Grizz Archer

86mr2 said:


> I presume you are sending some to Matt at ID to Klippel for us then?


Nope. I know what ai need to know about them since I engineered them. However, they are cheap if he wants to buy one.  Only $89.95 MSRP


----------



## 86mr2

89grand said:


> That would be great except he doesn't know how to use it apparently.


Dude, don't queer my troll. That's just uncool.


----------



## 86mr2

Grizz Archer said:


> Nope. I know what ai need to know about them since I engineered them. However, they are cheap if he wants to buy one.  Only $89.95 MSRP


Are they materially different from lower priced Orions from 15 years years ago? 

Any PPI fanboys going to submit one for Klippel testing?


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> I told you! lol WOudl you guys rather I add foo-foo motor covers, custome tooled gaskets and dustcaps, then lower the magnet grade, and charge double the price? Didn't think so. These are for the purist that wants his cash spent on performance, not cosmetics. BTW, the 12" are finally in stock and shipping...
> 
> Sometimes simple is better...


AMEN!


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> I told you! lol WOudl you guys rather I add foo-foo motor covers, custome tooled gaskets and dustcaps, then lower the magnet grade, and charge double the price? Didn't think so. These are for the purist that wants his cash spent on performance, not cosmetics. BTW, the 12" are finally in stock and shipping...


All that may be true, but right now it just looks like hype. There is no measured performance (that I could find) on the PPI site. Not even T/S parameters. There is no mention of _why_ they are "for performance," such as shorting rings or a linear BL motor. There's a plasti-copper dustcap, OK. But is there any copper in the motor? Unless told otherwise, smart people are going to assume it's just a generic long-coil overhung motor with no shorting rings, which makes it more "for profit" than "for performance."



Grizz Archer said:


> Nope. I know what ai need to know about them since I engineered them. However, they are cheap if he wants to buy one.  Only $89.95 MSRP


Honest question: for 90 bucks why should one prefer your 8 over the CSS Trio8[/quote]? For less money, the Trio8 has a trick motor design with dual gaps to increase BL linearity over excursion and multiple shorting rings, _as well as_ lots of throw and an extremely nice cast basket with extensive under-spider ventilation. It frankly on paper makes your driver look like a toy from 1992 in comparison.

Furthermore, why shouldn't one just save 40 bucks and pick up a [url=https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=1386]Peerless SLS8 instead? In addition to the cosmetic upgrades over your Art 8 (no dustcap graphics, bespoke stamped steel frame) it has a high-quality motor of known excellent performance, with shorting rings to linearize inductance over throw and significant under-spider ventilation.


----------



## jonnyanalog

The whole underlying problem as I see it with the 'new PPI' is it doesn't follow what PPI was all about in the first place. It was on all their literature, boxes, and iirc their product: "Absolutely State of the Art." I don't see that here; I see the 1990s all over again and that is not state of the art. Where is Epsilon pushing the limits of woofer, amp, and speaker design? I think the idea to get PPI was to cash in on the history and name, then milk it for as long as possible. Same with Soundstream.


----------



## DS-21

Agreed, there's nothing on the PeePI website right now that makes me forget about those awesome dinnerplate subs of the mid-late 1990s, with the huge-diameter underhung coil, Eton-style sandwich diaphragm, teeny inductance, and bespoke everything.

If _that_ PPeeI still existed the amps would probably be more like Jello XD's and HD's (not a stretch, given that the old PPEye amp people are at JL) and the speakers would probably be slightly gaudy but awesome-performing and extremely well-built Aura NRT-motored things.


----------



## rommelrommel

Grizz Archer said:


> Nope. I know what ai need to know about them since I engineered them. However, they are cheap if he wants to buy one.  Only $89.95 MSRP


Klippel testing refers to being tested on the Klippel machine that is currently at ID, and the results would be posted on here publically. It would be nice if we could know what you know... might even get some more people to buy these if they test well. It's not some guy named Klippel looking to do a subjective review.


----------



## rexroadj

WOW! There is just no winning! I am not trying to start an argument about any of this because there is absolutely 0 point. BUT..... if the did any of that stuff mentioned above I am almost certain the same people would still find a reason to complain or judge something they have not even seen yet. It would be "wow they just put out the same stuff of the old" or "wow a new class d tiny amp that everyone else under the sun has out" Seriously... there is just no winning with some people. Lets not forget two major things when talking about this stuff....#1 they had about a year and a half at the most to come up with a new line, considering thats pretty frigging good! #2 This is a business, the goal is to make money thats priority #1. No one goes into business for any other reason. Personally as far as the technology of there stuff.....I am pretty good with it since I feel like if it aint broke dont fix it. The new soundstream ref amps are fantastic amps that provide tons of flexibility with TONS of clean power, whats wrong with that? Trying to compare PPI of the 90s to now is pretty pointless, its not the same market or audio revolution of that time so why would they have the same outlook. As far as using the name PPI? why does anyone care that the name was bought out? Its just a name! I really dont feel like they are trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes by selling products under that name. Its not like they are saying this is PPI just like you remember. Just take it for what it is... A mid-midhigh range of products at a pretty respectable price point! I think people are trying to put this stuff on a pedistal its not meant to be in, and more so people are attempting to make an opinion without seeing, touching or knowing anything about them. Not trying to be a fan boy but having tried out some of there products in both soundstream and ppi I am pretty impressed thus far....What have you guys tried?


----------



## Grizz Archer

86mr2 said:


> Are they materially different from lower priced Orions from 15 years years ago?
> 
> Any PPI fanboys going to submit one for Klippel testing?


Yes and no. Metal baskets, paper cones, foam surrounds, ferrite magnets - nothing has really change even today. But do you guys have any idea what the radicaly differences are just in paper. Being a die-hard paper lover, it is mindblowing how different they are. The difference between two identical weight and ingredient paper cones is radical if one is pressed and one is not. Lumpy top side or bottom. Thickness or density. My intent was to not spend a penny on foo-foo tooling, and put every penny into the highest grade magnet slugs, high quality coils, not just any but the right surround for the requirements needed, and of course, the best cone possible for the intended application. Yes, they look like a badass driver from the 1980s, but nothing like a current exotic woofer. Many people are asking for more performance these rather than 5000 watt loud pieces of jewelry. I guess we'll see how they sell...


----------



## bassfromspace

rexroadj said:


> WOW! There is just no winning! I am not trying to start an argument about any of this because there is absolutely 0 point. BUT..... if the did any of that stuff mentioned above I am almost certain the same people would still find a reason to complain or judge something they have not even seen yet. It would be "wow they just put out the same stuff of the old" or "wow a new class d tiny amp that everyone else under the sun has out" Seriously... there is just no winning with some people. Lets not forget two major things when talking about this stuff....#1 they had about a year and a half at the most to come up with a new line, considering thats pretty frigging good! #2 This is a business, the goal is to make money thats priority #1. No one goes into business for any other reason. Personally as far as the technology of there stuff.....I am pretty good with it since I feel like if it aint broke dont fix it. The new soundstream ref amps are fantastic amps that provide tons of flexibility with TONS of clean power, whats wrong with that? Trying to compare PPI of the 90s to now is pretty pointless, its not the same market or audio revolution of that time so why would they have the same outlook. As far as using the name PPI? why does anyone care that the name was bought out? Its just a name! I really dont feel like they are trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes by selling products under that name. Its not like they are saying this is PPI just like you remember. Just take it for what it is... A mid-midhigh range of products at a pretty respectable price point! I think people are trying to put this stuff on a pedistal its not meant to be in, and more so people are attempting to make an opinion without seeing, touching or knowing anything about them. Not trying to be a fan boy but having tried out some of there products in both soundstream and ppi I am pretty impressed thus far....What have you guys tried?


With all due respect, you always come in these threads and write long diatribes about how members are being unfair to PPI or Soundstream. It does, in fact, sound fanboi-ish.

As far as I can see, the questions being asked are very valid and reflect the needs of the consumer. That's what business is about.


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> All that may be true, but right now it just looks like hype. There is no measured performance (that I could find) on the PPI site. Not even T/S parameters. There is no mention of _why_ they are "for performance," such as shorting rings or a linear BL motor. There's a plasti-copper dustcap, OK. But is there any copper in the motor? Unless told otherwise, smart people are going to assume it's just a generic long-coil overhung motor with no shorting rings, which makes it more "for profit" than "for performance."
> 
> 
> 
> Honest question: for 90 bucks why should one prefer your 8 over the CSS Trio8


? For less money, the Trio8 has a trick motor design with dual gaps to increase BL linearity over excursion and multiple shorting rings, _as well as_ lots of throw and an extremely nice cast basket with extensive under-spider ventilation. It frankly on paper makes your driver look like a toy from 1992 in comparison.

Furthermore, why shouldn't one just save 40 bucks and pick up a [url=https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=1386]Peerless SLS8 instead? In addition to the cosmetic upgrades over your Art 8 (no dustcap graphics, bespoke stamped steel frame) it has a high-quality motor of known excellent performance, with shorting rings to linearize inductance over throw and significant under-spider ventilation.[/QUOTE]

What hype are you talking about. I don't use hype to sell products. The PPI website is being rebuilt from scratch which takes quite awhile. If you want to know more, that is my sole reason for being here. Yes there is a shorting ring on the Art SQ series motors. Yes, I have all of the LMS parameters available for everybody that asks. An bunch of you have already asked and I have given them the entire file for all PPI subwoofers. Respectfully, I must say that I have heard plenty of overhung and under subs, with and without faraday rings that sound great so I am not quite understanding why you are slamming a woofer you know nothing about and have not cared enough to ask about. I am here for you if you have questions. As I said earlier, it is a $89.95 woofer, so smart people will compare it to drivers in the same class, not a mega buck driver...

First of all, I NEVER said that people should prefer my driver, so please do not put words into my mouth my friend. It is simply my offering. As for the Treo driver... Sounds nice. I have nothing bad to say about anybody's drivers. I would like to know why you think that multiple gaps and shorting ring makes a better driver. I cannot think of a tons of high-end drivers in car or home audio that use this technology. I have my own personal thought on multiple gaps that I will not share because they are my opinion and not necessariyl facts. But since you just have nothing but bad things to say about my products, I am asking you nicely to please explain in full engineering detail why you feel thiese things make a difference and how many other companies use this technology. I want to learn from you... Your intended insulting remark abiout being a toy from 1992... Thank you, that is exactly what I was shoooting for. An affordable driver with great performance without all of the wild stuff.

Wow, you are a very negative person. But that is ok. Your opinion does not hurt my feelings, but only lets me know what types of people are out there. I happen to be a Danish driver lover. Congratulations on knowing that they exist. Now, how many time have you seen them in a car audio shop? I work for a car audio company and engineer products that will sell to consumers in car audio shops, not home audio catalogs and websites.

If you do not mind me asking, what is your beef with my company, me, or my products. Your aggressive attitude is not needed to get your point accross. And actually, I still do not get your point. If you love the Treo or Peerless drivers, then why are you even jumping into this thread, other than just to make agressive insults. I guess I just want to know what you are getting out of this...


----------



## VP Electricity

Grizz Archer said:


> Metal baskets, paper cones, foam surrounds, ferrite magnets - nothing has really change even today...
> 
> Yes, they look like a badass driver from the 1980s, but nothing like a current exotic woofer.


Cast baskets have become more commonly available OTS and lower in cost. 

Neo magnets have become much lower in cost and do not require tooling. 

Various cone materials and surround materials have also become lower in cost. 



Grizz Archer said:


> Many people are asking for more performance these rather than 5000 watt loud pieces of jewelry.


I don't understand - can you clarify? 

This is an 8" woofer... what's the use case you are aiming for and the one you're avoiding?


----------



## VP Electricity

Grizz Archer said:


> First of all, I NEVER said that people should prefer my driver, so please do not put words into my mouth my friend. It is simply my offering.


I'm confused...if you don't believe in it, why would you offer it?


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> Agreed, there's nothing on the PeePI website right now that makes me forget about those awesome dinnerplate subs of the mid-late 1990s, with the huge-diameter underhung coil, Eton-style sandwich diaphragm, teeny inductance, and bespoke everything.
> 
> If _that_ PPeeI still existed the amps would probably be more like Jello XD's and HD's (not a stretch, given that the old PPEye amp people are at JL) and the speakers would probably be slightly gaudy but awesome-performing and extremely well-built Aura NRT-motored things.


PeePI? Classy buddy! Immense creativity in your insults! Why don;t you just come out claim that you hate our product and what ever other brands all at once? Be honest...


----------



## imjustjason

He doing that to get around the linking.


----------



## rexroadj

bassfromspace said:


> With all due respect, you always come in these threads and write long diatribes about how members are being unfair to PPI or Soundstream. It does, in fact, sound fanboi-ish.
> 
> As far as I can see, the questions being asked are very valid and reflect the needs of the consumer. That's what business is about.


My opinion is that a large portion of the questions are not valid. Again just my opinion! I have used a pretty good deal of there newer products and they are pretty damn good, especially for the $. If stating first hand experience to those who have spouted off without having seen or touched anything is "fan boi-ish" then so be it. 
I am not sure how my "long diatribes" are any less significant then the others? Is it just because several others do not feel the same way? Which of course is fine! Again, since I have actually used these products and the people talking about them do not seem to want to answer when asked if they have actually used them or not are speaking negatively, I am am going to speak up, its kinda ignorant to speak so matter of fact about this stuff without having touched any of it is all I am saying. 

Am I wrong about this? again I am not trying to argue back and forth with anyone, were all intitled to our opinions but do you think it makes any sense to form such hardcore opinions without having seen or touched any of this stuff?

Also I would say they are addressing the market better this way then what some are looking for. Maybe someone who has REAL data can add but people on this forum probably BARELY make up 1% of this market. Ever go into Best Buy and start talking about car audio? (before anyone starts....I am not bashing people at best buy or the company as a whole you guys know what I mean based on who your clientel usually is) They look at you like your speaking a foreign language..... Thats the bulk of the market, they dont want/ need 5k to there sub and 400 per component speaker. They at most will purchase a 5 channel amp and a couple sets of coaxials and run a pair of subs. These 8s for example would fit that bill all day long! Its about simplicity at this point for them....Nothing wrong about that that I can see?
Again I am not saying they **** rainbows or anything, just being the devils advocate so people hopefully will make some sort of attempt to look at both sides before flushing the toilet


----------



## Grizz Archer

rommelrommel said:


> Klippel testing refers to being tested on the Klippel machine that is currently at ID, and the results would be posted on here publically. It would be nice if we could know what you know... might even get some more people to buy these if they test well. It's not some guy named Klippel looking to do a subjective review.


LOL I know buddy. A couple of my factories have Klippels. All I am saying is that I can provide anybody with the LMS parameters is they want them. My parameters are taken from 10 production samples each tested 10 time s each and at different times of the day with different ambient temperatures, etc... They are accurate as I can possibly get them... I do not need another Klippel test. But I can totally respect your desire, so I can sell you one for $39 directly if you want. If my LMS parameters are sufficient, email me directly and I will send you the spreadsheet...


----------



## Audio_Images

Grizz Archer said:


> ? For less money, the Trio8 has a trick motor design with dual gaps to increase BL linearity over excursion and multiple shorting rings, _as well as_ lots of throw and an extremely nice cast basket with extensive under-spider ventilation. It frankly on paper makes your driver look like a toy from 1992 in comparison.
> 
> Furthermore, why shouldn't one just save 40 bucks and pick up a Peerless SLS8 instead? In addition to the cosmetic upgrades over your Art 8 (no dustcap graphics, bespoke stamped steel frame) it has a high-quality motor of known excellent performance, with shorting rings to linearize inductance over throw and significant under-spider ventilation.


What hype are you talking about. I don't use hype to sell products. The PPI website is being rebuilt from scratch which takes quite awhile. If you want to know more, that is my sole reason for being here. Yes there is a shorting ring on the Art SQ series motors. Yes, I have all of the LMS parameters available for everybody that asks. An bunch of you have already asked and I have given them the entire file for all PPI subwoofers. Respectfully, I must say that I have heard plenty of overhung and under subs, with and without faraday rings that sound great so I am not quite understanding why you are slamming a woofer you know nothing about and have not cared enough to ask about. I am here for you if you have questions. As I said earlier, it is a $89.95 woofer, so smart people will compare it to drivers in the same class, not a mega buck driver...

First of all, I NEVER said that people should prefer my driver, so please do not put words into my mouth my friend. It is simply my offering. As for the Treo driver... Sounds nice. I have nothing bad to say about anybody's drivers. I would like to know why you think that multiple gaps and shorting ring makes a better driver. I cannot think of a tons of high-end drivers in car or home audio that use this technology. I have my own personal thought on multiple gaps that I will not share because they are my opinion and not necessariyl facts. But since you just have nothing but bad things to say about my products, I am asking you nicely to please explain in full engineering detail why you feel thiese things make a difference and how many other companies use this technology. I want to learn from you... Your intended insulting remark abiout being a toy from 1992... Thank you, that is exactly what I was shoooting for. An affordable driver with great performance without all of the wild stuff.

Wow, you are a very negative person. But that is ok. Your opinion does not hurt my feelings, but only lets me know what types of people are out there. I happen to be a Danish driver lover. Congratulations on knowing that they exist. Now, how many time have you seen them in a car audio shop? I work for a car audio company and engineer products that will sell to consumers in car audio shops, not home audio catalogs and websites.

If you do not mind me asking, what is your beef with my company, me, or my products. Your aggressive attitude is not needed to get your point accross. And actually, I still do not get your point. If you love the Treo or Peerless drivers, then why are you even jumping into this thread, other than just to make agressive insults. I guess I just want to know what you are getting out of this...[/QUOTE]

I have been asking the same thing....


----------



## chad

imjustjason said:


> He doing that to get around the linking.


word to your mother.


----------



## bassfromspace

T


rexroadj said:


> My opinion is that a large portion of the questions are not valid. Again just my opinion! I have used a pretty good deal of there newer products and they are pretty damn good, especially for the $. If stating first hand experience to those who have spouted off without having seen or touched anything is "fan boi-ish" then so be it.
> I am not sure how my "long diatribes" are any less significant then the others? Is it just because several others do not feel the same way? Which of course is fine! Again, since I have actually used these products and the people talking about them do not seem to want to answer when asked if they have actually used them or not are speaking negatively, I am am going to speak up, its kinda ignorant to speak so matter of fact about this stuff without having touched any of it is all I am saying.
> 
> Am I wrong about this? again I am not trying to argue back and forth with anyone, were all intitled to our opinions but do you think it makes any sense to form such hardcore opinions without having seen or touched any of this stuff?
> 
> Also I would say they are addressing the market better this way then what some are looking for. Maybe someone who has REAL data can add but people on this forum probably BARELY make up 1% of this market. Ever go into Best Buy and start talking about car audio? (before anyone starts....I am not bashing people at best buy or the company as a whole you guys know what I mean based on who your clientel usually is) They look at you like your speaking a foreign language..... Thats the bulk of the market, they dont want/ need 5k to there sub and 400 per component speaker. They at most will purchase a 5 channel amp and a couple sets of coaxials and run a pair of subs. These 8s for example would fit that bill all day long! Its about simplicity at this point for them....Nothing wrong about that that I can see?
> Again I am not saying they **** rainbows or anything, just being the devils advocate so people hopefully will make some sort of attempt to look at both sides before flushing the toilet


The question then becomes, "why come onto the forum and convince diehard listeners about the validity of the product?"

We're not impressed by technical mumbo jumbo and want to see hardcore proof that products offer the best technology and performance. That's why people are questioning motor topology, materials, and T/S parameters, not to be jerks.


----------



## Grizz Archer

jonnyanalog said:


> The whole underlying problem as I see it with the 'new PPI' is it doesn't follow what PPI was all about in the first place. It was on all their literature, boxes, and iirc their product: "Absolutely State of the Art." I don't see that here; I see the 1990s all over again and that is not state of the art. Where is Epsilon pushing the limits of woofer, amp, and speaker design? I think the idea to get PPI was to cash in on the history and name, then milk it for as long as possible. Same with Soundstream.


You're partially right. PPI is a valued name. Why would be buy anything else? We are in business to make money. When we make products like Human Reign, we address the extremely high end market, but do you buy any? Nope! Who does? Hardly anybody! One order of those amps will last us 2 years or more. We do not make money on them, so if we make only high end, then then our business will go under in a split second. Most manufacturers are reducing thier skus to survivie the economy or coming out with really entry level equipment. And ya know what? They're smart. That is what is selling keeping everybody alive. Ask the highend-only companies how their numbers are. WAY DOWN!!! PPI is intended to have a high end series, mid-series and entry level series, even thought the entry level series is more like a mid level series. There are SQ subs, typical subs and Pro Audio subs. Pro audio components and even and OEM integration piece. PPI is designed to meet the needs ot TODAY's buyers, not the 1980s. Hey man, if I had my way, I would released an all new Pro-Mos series, but I got shut down. And they are probably right. Who is going to buy a 2x12.5 watt amp?! Maybe 3 people on this forum and myself. I would have to buy 500-1000 pieces that would last a lifetime, cost a fortune and we would not be able to close them out for 1/2 of what we paid. Do you see what I mean? I have your best interest in my heart, but at the same time, I want our brands to succeed via sales. I love my job man and need this place to be successful. Just know that I will always want the same crazy old school stuff. Maybe one day there will be a demand for it again...


----------



## Audio_Images

Yep. Well said. Those also of us that are trying to keep it alive too will forever remain diehards. Take the best and forget the rest...


----------



## 89grand

Audio_Images said:


> What hype are you talking about. I don't use hype to sell products. The PPI website is being rebuilt from scratch which takes quite awhile. If you want to know more, that is my sole reason for being here. Yes there is a shorting ring on the Art SQ series motors. Yes, I have all of the LMS parameters available for everybody that asks. An bunch of you have already asked and I have given them the entire file for all PPI subwoofers. Respectfully, I must say that I have heard plenty of overhung and under subs, with and without faraday rings that sound great so I am not quite understanding why you are slamming a woofer you know nothing about and have not cared enough to ask about. I am here for you if you have questions. As I said earlier, it is a $89.95 woofer, so smart people will compare it to drivers in the same class, not a mega buck driver...
> 
> First of all, I NEVER said that people should prefer my driver, so please do not put words into my mouth my friend. It is simply my offering. As for the Treo driver... Sounds nice. I have nothing bad to say about anybody's drivers. I would like to know why you think that multiple gaps and shorting ring makes a better driver. I cannot think of a tons of high-end drivers in car or home audio that use this technology. I have my own personal thought on multiple gaps that I will not share because they are my opinion and not necessariyl facts. But since you just have nothing but bad things to say about my products, I am asking you nicely to please explain in full engineering detail why you feel thiese things make a difference and how many other companies use this technology. I want to learn from you... Your intended insulting remark abiout being a toy from 1992... Thank you, that is exactly what I was shoooting for. An affordable driver with great performance without all of the wild stuff.
> 
> Wow, you are a very negative person. But that is ok. Your opinion does not hurt my feelings, but only lets me know what types of people are out there. I happen to be a Danish driver lover. Congratulations on knowing that they exist. Now, how many time have you seen them in a car audio shop? I work for a car audio company and engineer products that will sell to consumers in car audio shops, not home audio catalogs and websites.
> 
> If you do not mind me asking, what is your beef with my company, me, or my products. Your aggressive attitude is not needed to get your point accross. And actually, I still do not get your point. If you love the Treo or Peerless drivers, then why are you even jumping into this thread, other than just to make agressive insults. I guess I just want to know what you are getting out of this...


I have been asking the same thing....[/QUOTE]

Wow, you suck at quoting.


----------



## imjustjason

Audio_Images said:


> Yep. Well said. Those also of us that are trying to keep it alive too will forever remain diehards. Take the best and forget the rest...


Isn't that ironic...


----------



## Audio_Images

sorry I just hit the quote button. Like thats a big deal now too...


----------



## 89grand

Audio_Images said:


> sorry I just hit the quote button. Like thats a big deal now too...


Yes, by not quoting properly, it looks like you wrote the statement, not quoted it, but that's nothing new I guess. :laugh:


----------



## Audio_Images

dude you dont know when to stop do you? there was a /quote at the end and you can read it above mine so its clear who wrote it. Let it go....


----------



## ErinH




----------



## Grizz Archer

VP Electricity said:


> Cast baskets have become more commonly available OTS and lower in cost.
> 
> Neo magnets have become much lower in cost and do not require tooling.
> 
> Various cone materials and surround materials have also become lower in cost.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand - can you clarify?
> 
> This is an 8" woofer... what's the use case you are aiming for and the one you're avoiding?


Baskets - There is not need for a cast basket on this woofer. At $5 more cost, would you pay another $20 retail for a cast basket? Some people would, but it would not affect performance, only cosmetics.

Neo - they are still higher cost. Neo is a great material but not any better looking than ferrite, smaller, (which is bad for the guys whi think bigger is better) and harder to cool due to mass.

Cones - What cones do you suggest that are better. Some people prefer woven materials, or poly. As long as I am here, the best sound drivers will always have paper and I am not negotiable on this at all until I hear domething better. I will of course make other sets with other materials.

Many people like the old school type of products. There are alot of wild and crazy high-powered subwoofers out there. Case in point - Our Reference R1 subs. Insane amount so crazy stuff on there. Some people need that. You rarely see that stuff in high end home audio. Other want something simple that sound great and do not worry about wild and crazy features and cosmetics. We have so many series because try to hit everybody's needs...

I do not understand your last question. Please explain. The intent of the 8" sub is to have a small sound quality driver suitable for versatile applications and not requiring alot of power.


----------



## Grizz Archer

VP Electricity said:


> I'm confused...if you don't believe in it, why would you offer it?


I never said I did not believe in it. I think you are misunderstaning me again. You said "why should somebody prefer my driver". My point was that I do not tell people what they should prefer and not prefer. Maybe I was not clear - so I'll take the blame for not being more specific. People that have known me during the last 27 years in audio know one thing for sure - I never force products on anybody. I an not in sales so I really do not care what people buy. I like all kinds of stuff and I will always be one of the only people that will give you my un0biased opinion, wheteher good or bad, for my of my competition. Actually that is not true. I will say something unfavorable about my own product before I say something bad about somebody elses. I refuse to be the guy bashing on competitive products. I am brutally honest and anybody that know me or has read my articles knows this to be true. I just want to be a source of info for people on here. I will tell anybody anything, but I amnot trying to sell anything. Most people on the forums know what brands they like and this is just a place for everybody to argue. I am not trying to converty anybody. If you like it buy it, if you don't then don't. Doesn't interest me either way. I just want to learn about members and what is feasible for new products...


----------



## Audio_Images

Grizz the issue here also is that some people do not understand that every single person in the company does not have the same intentions as others. Some are into making a ton of money with bad stuff and cheap labor. It is hard ( i know I been there) to get everyone on the same page. You and I would want the PROMOS back, Company owners dont because theres not enough gain in it for the company as they see it. Using more expensive materials etc; does not warrant. People will always have opinions. All I know is just let um wait until it is released. That is the only way we will know. 

The other issue is the ones who expect it to all be old school just because it is an old school idea or design from the past. DEI messed some things up, it is hard to rebuild from that. But they need to also understand that they will never be exactly the same as the true legends from the start. 

Maybe we should just invest again... lol


----------



## jonnyanalog

Grizz, I'm not talking tech for tech's sake or to make it only into high tech low margin/volume product. I think tech when used diligently can be a boon for the entire line and not cost a ton. Look at all the tiny class G, cladd D, and compact A/B amps hitting the market. I think there are untapped opportunities in these markets and I could see PPI slotting into them nicely and LEADING them.


----------



## Audio_Images

jonnyanalog said:


> Grizz, I'm not talking tech for tech's sake or to make it only into high tech low margin/volume product. I think tech when used diligently can be a boon for the entire line and not cost a ton. Look at all the tiny class G, cladd D, and compact A/B amps hitting the market. I think there are untapped opportunities in these markets and I could see PPI slotting into them nicely and LEADING them.


Its hard sometimes to pass that off tho to high up, when its easy to see a margin flux in cost.


----------



## rexroadj

bassfromspace said:


> T
> 
> The question then becomes, "why come onto the forum and convince diehard listeners about the validity of the product?"
> 
> We're not impressed by technical mumbo jumbo and want to see hardcore proof that products offer the best technology and performance. That's why people are questioning motor topology, materials, and T/S parameters, not to be jerks.


Then the answer is.......I am not attempting to convince the so called die hard listeners about the validity. I am saying, DO not say that there is NO VALIDITY if you have not used it (I dont mean you personally, I am not arguing, just conversing). 

I am not a tech guy, I think a lot of the #s people love to look at so much are garbage and have said so many times. Anyone who has read anything from me or talked with me knows I am all about REAL HANDS ON experiences and for that reason I buy and sell tons of stuff because I enjoy tinkering and seeing how things handle real world situations, not a lab report. So I dont know why you are bring up the not impressed with "techno mumbo jumbo" stuff with me? I have not mentioned any of that which again is my point. I have actually used this stuff and am speaking from first hand info. Most on here are going by what they want to assume or by what the spec sheets may or may not read and I think its pretty foolish, thats all.


----------



## jonnyanalog

Believe me when I say I can sympathize with you and Grizz I work for a heavy truck OEM down here in TX. It has taken more than the 8 years I've been here to make the management see that design, when implemented properly, can make a better product and more appealing. Its an uphill battle but its one that needs to be fought especially if you believe in the product. DEI screwed PPI harcore and thats a shame. Its a monumental task to raise a brand back up again. Ask GM and Chrysler how hard it has been to change perception. Ford is doing it. I think the same can be done for PPI.


----------



## Grizz Archer

jonnyanalog said:


> Grizz, I'm not talking tech for tech's sake or to make it only into high tech low margin/volume product. I think tech when used diligently can be a boon for the entire line and not cost a ton. Look at all the tiny class G, cladd D, and compact A/B amps hitting the market. I think there are untapped opportunities in these markets and I could see PPI slotting into them nicely and LEADING them.


I hear ya. So imagine this and give me your honest opinion. What if we would have made Art Series in full-range Class-D Would you buy it? I am guessing that everybody but a few would think we royally screwed up. Tough call for us to make, but it will be all Class-A/B if it ever comes out. The problem is that 1/2 the peopl on here want it identical to what it was. The other 1/2 know that technology advance leaps and bounds over the last 15-20 years and a modern design could be better with lower cost. The fight is endless and who is to say who is right? We made the new Reference better than the original, but with today's technology, we could make it for alot less money, partly due to saving a ton of money on overpaid careless Californians building them here. When an insertion machine can measure every single parts that is about to get stuffed into a board within 1%, and then stuff hundreds of parts per minute with perfect accuracy, how could they not be better. But most people do not understand this. I would love the amps to be made here but they would cost WAAAAAY more and be less reliable. Sad but true. Anyway, my point is that the Refs still do not fly out the door. Everybody had to have them in their mind, but it is all a bunch of talk, the sales show other wise. I'll bet less than 5-10 people on this forum have them, but look how much talk there was about them. We are on the same page with the same wants - but as an employee here, I need my company to sell product that is good in quality and at a fair price. Know what I mean man?


----------



## WRX/Z28

Hmmmm... i've always wondered why people beleive they can completely evaluate a driver based solely on specs. At best, the spec's can give you an "educated guess" as to the products performance, but as i've learned, numbers on a piece of paper are surely not the end all be all. 

Also, some place large amounts of weight on "technology". The microwave is a great techological advancement in cooking food, but does that mean the stove and my bbq grill are obsolete, or are not capable devices for cooking food? Does it absolutely guarantee the the microwave is a better innovation because it's "newer technology"? 

So many people drivel on with such ******** about these things, it's amazing that so many buy into the ******** of a "know it all" forum member over the engineer's making the products. 

I've never heard a new PPI product, and in fact, I was one of the people stating simply that "It has very little in common, or to do with the PPI of the 80's and 90's". This was not to say that it's not a solid product, but simply because I didn't understand the supposed "PPI old school guys" clamoring like it was the 2nd coming of christ, when the reality was that the O/S PPI designers make JL's stuff. 

The product seems to have some thought put into it, and seems like Grizz had some goals in mind. Until you've seen it (or heard it rather), you can't really comment on how it will stack up against a "technologically superior" driver. To do so is asinine. 

All the forum "know it all's" crawling out of the woodwork to discuss the merrits of a driver they've never heard, or even seen in person makes me laugh. 

Carry on Grizz, as they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity, unless it's your obituary...


----------



## Audio_Images

WRX/Z28 said:


> Hmmmm... i've always wondered why people beleive they can completely evaluate a driver based solely on specs. At best, the spec's can give you an "educated guess" as to the products performance, but as i've learned, numbers on a piece of paper are surely not the end all be all.
> 
> Also, some place large amounts of weight on "technology". The microwave is a great techological advancement in cooking food, but does that mean the stove and my bbq grill are obsolete, or are not capable devices for cooking food? Does it absolutely guarantee the the microwave is a better innovation because it's "newer technology"?
> 
> So many people drivel on with such ******** about these things, it's amazing that so many buy into the ******** of a "know it all" forum member over the engineer's making the products.
> 
> I've never heard a new PPI product, and in fact, I was one of the people stating simply that "It has very little in common, or to do with the PPI of the 80's and 90's". This was not to say that it's not a solid product, but simply because I didn't understand the supposed "PPI old school guys" clamoring like it was the 2nd coming of christ, when the reality was that the O/S PPI designers make JL's stuff.
> 
> The product seems to have some thought put into it, and seems like Grizz had some goals in mind. Until you've seen it (or heard it rather), you can't really comment on how it will stack up against a "technologically superior" driver. To do so is asinine.
> 
> All the forum "know it all's" crawling out of the woodwork to discuss the merrits of a driver they've never heard, or even seen in person makes me laugh.
> 
> Carry on Grizz, as they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity, unless it's your obituary...


This conveys Grizz' point about if you dont want to buy it, dont, and my point of what I said before... you wont know until you hear it and its released.


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## WRX/Z28

Audio_Images said:


> This conveys Grizz' point about if you dont want to buy it, dont, and my point of what I said before... you wont know until you hear it and its released.


Oh jebus. Please don't agree with me. It discredit's everything I said.  :laugh:


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## rexroadj

Pretty sure I said that 25+ pages ago and said it a million times since. But well said and great comparisons WRX!


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## 89grand

There is one glaring reason I won't go near a new "PPI" product, and it's not Grizz or the average looking woofers.


----------



## Audio_Images

WRX/Z28 said:


> Oh jebus. Please don't agree with me. It discredit's everything I said.  :laugh:


lol whatever.


----------



## Audio_Images

89grand said:


> There is one glaring reason I won't go near a new "PPI" product, and it's not Grizz or the average looking woofers.


Why would that be, do tell?


----------



## 89grand

Audio_Images said:


> Why would that be, do tell?


Take a wild guess.


----------



## Audio_Images

na might quote it wrong lol... more deletions....


----------



## rexroadj

Audio_Images said:


> Why would that be, do tell?


Oh please dont walk into that one


----------



## PPI-ART

rexroadj said:


> Then the answer is.......I am not attempting to convince the so called die hard listeners about the validity. I am saying, DO not say that there is NO VALIDITY if you have not used it (I dont mean you personally, I am not arguing, just conversing).
> 
> I am not a tech guy, I think a lot of the #s people love to look at so much are garbage and have said so many times. Anyone who has read anything from me or talked with me knows I am all about REAL HANDS ON experiences and for that reason I buy and sell tons of stuff because I enjoy tinkering and seeing how things handle real world situations, not a lab report. So I dont know why you are bring up the not impressed with "techno mumbo jumbo" stuff with me? I have not mentioned any of that which again is my point. I have actually used this stuff and am speaking from first hand info. Most on here are going by what they want to assume or by what the spec sheets may or may not read and I think its pretty foolish, thats all.



But that is the true nature of marketing a product. Most companies will pass of f their products for third party reviews because some consumers want an unbiased opinion of the products that are available to validate that they conform to what the manufacturer states about that product (ie.how the product performs in different environments and such not techie mumbo
) And some consumers will look only at the specs or parameters from the manufacturer and decide if the product is right for them based on complete specifications. Either way to fully market the products their has to be a balance 
Of both IMHO.


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## pat_smith1969

Hey Grizz...
I am not sure how much you are allowed to say but if you can, can you say what of your products you sell the most of? You mention that the Refs are not flying out the door but are your tarantula series doing better? how about your Rubicon series?

I ask because I am real curious and it would illustrate your points about price versus quality and who will pay for what. 

I am one of those of which you speak. I looked at the Ref series, and even the Rubicon series and got all googlie-eyed over them. They were MUST have amps, and I found them to be real cheap (price not quality) for what they were. 
Sadly in the end I sold out. I went with some fairly well regarded Kenwood amps mostly because they had built in Time Alignment and cost less that $150 (refurbished, kenwood no longer makes them). 

I still dream about the Refs and someday might upgrade. but when it came right down to it... I didn't put my money where my mouth was.


----------



## rexroadj

PPI-ART said:


> But that is the true nature of marketing a product. Most companies will pass of f their products for third party reviews because some consumers want an unbiased opinion of the products that are available to validate that they conform to what the manufacturer states about that product (ie.how the product performs in different environments and such not techie mumbo
> ) And some consumers will look only at the specs or parameters from the manufacturer and decide if the product is right for them based on complete specifications. Either way to fully market the products their has to be a balance
> Of both IMHO.


I totally agree with that. I was simply stating that it is still completely unfair to base an opinion on something based on a spec sheet which is what a large portion on here have done. (in some cases there was not even a spec sheet but yet opinions were already based as fact?) I agree they are good to go on to get into the "ballpark" of what your shopping for and can help narrow out the field to some degree. I meant saying something is good or bad based on a spec sheet is not really a fair or realistic way of going about it.


----------



## WRX/Z28

rexroadj said:


> I totally agree with that. I was simply stating that it is still completely unfair to base an opinion on something based on a spec sheet which is what a large portion on here have done. (in some cases there was not even a spec sheet but yet opinions were already based as fact?) I agree they are good to go on to get into the "ballpark" of what your shopping for and can help narrow out the field to some degree. I meant saying something is good or bad based on a spec sheet is not really a fair or realistic way of going about it.



It's not just unfair, it's actually idiotic. Too many variable's in a car to beleive that a spec sheet can be "the amazing kreskin"


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## rexroadj

yeah, despite how hard it is for me I was trying to be nice and say "unfair" even though I had many more choices in mind


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## pat_smith1969

WRX/Z28 said:


> It's not just unfair, it's actually idiotic. Too many variable's in a car to beleive that a spec sheet can be "the amazing kreskin"


True but for a lot of poeple it is the only option, that and the opinions of others who have caughed up the the money and tried them. Car Audio stores are closing left and right, those that are left are staying alive by minimizing their inventory and carrying very few products. 

I have never heard a Hertz speaker (I thihnk of them as Nertz), no one sells them around here. If I were to buy one I would have to base if off specs and reviews by other people who may be stupid or deaf.

I would never pass my opinions off as fact in regards to Hertz speakers though... until I purchased a couple.


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## Audio_Images

True its the same as the food labels, most of them are wrong - Not because the makers post wrong facts, but because people dont measure the qty or whatever before they eat it. So they assume because the box says it has 50 calories thats all they are eating, so they eat more than the 1oz portion that contains 50 calories, gain weight and get pissed off at the makers.. Who's wrong? Not the makers....


----------



## WRX/Z28

pat_smith1969 said:


> True but for a lot of poeple it is the only option, that and the opinions of others who have caughed up the the money and tried them. Car Audio stores are closing left and right, those that are left are staying alive by minimizing their inventory and carrying very few products.
> 
> I have never heard a Hertz speaker (I thihnk of them as Nertz), no one sells them around here. If I were to buy one I would have to base if off specs and reviews by other people who may be stupid or deaf.
> 
> I would never pass my opinions off as fact in regards to Hertz speakers though... until I purchased a couple.


One man's POS is another man's treasure. Case in point my '89 Formula 350, bought it for $1400. Love the car to death. About to drop my camaro's built motor into it, and build something bigger for the camaro. 

Do I care that people think the car is "W/T"? Nah, I'll just let my 21+ y/o american car embarass them in the twisties... 

Hey, it's old technology. Can't be any good with a solid rear axle right? Couldn't possibly handle well, could it? Come see me in the turns. I'll embarass a lot of "sports car's" with "newer technology".


----------



## Audio_Images

pat_smith1969 said:


> True but for a lot of poeple it is the only option, that and the opinions of others who have caughed up the the money and tried them. Car Audio stores are closing left and right, those that are left are staying alive by minimizing their inventory and carrying very few products.
> 
> I have never heard a Hertz speaker (I thihnk of them as Nertz), no one sells them around here. If I were to buy one I would have to base if off specs and reviews by other people who may be stupid or deaf.
> 
> I would never pass my opinions off as fact in regards to Hertz speakers though... until I purchased a couple.


Car audio stores are closing for many more reasons than inventory. There are many still open that carry several brands too, the difference is how they spend the money they do make.


----------



## pat_smith1969

Audio_Images said:


> Car audio stores are closing for many more reasons than inventory. There are many still open that carry several brands too, the difference is how they spend the money they do make.


true I oversimplified for the sake of brevity. 

In my area (Maryland/DC) there were 8 car audio stores withing driving distance, there is now just three. One doesn't carry ANY inventory except some old pawn store type stuff, they make their money on installs I guess. The other two have an ok selection but only one product line at each price level. The thrid used to carry Diamond, Focal, Bostan Acoustic as their top lines. Now they carry Boston. THey still have the alpine, JL, Kicker as their mid/low level lines (talking Comps here not subs).


----------



## PPI-ART

rexroadj said:


> I totally agree with that. I was simply stating that it is still completely unfair to base an opinion on something based on a spec sheet which is what a large portion on here have done. (in some cases there was not even a spec sheet but yet opinions were already based as fact?) I agree they are good to go on to get into the "ballpark" of what your shopping for and can help narrow out the field to some degree. I meant saying something is good or bad based on a spec sheet is not really a fair or realistic way of going about it.


I agree with that to. But from a manufacturers point of view. Fair or unfair, there still will be the consumer who basis their purchase on purely specs and some from reviews or demos themselves. 
My point is to maximize sales IMHO companies need to have a balance of both options of demonstrating their products in diff. Ways to the consumer. But I agree that one persons opinion based on specs vs. One that demos or other forms of review of said product is each consumers right but should not be forced on someone else to make a decision about purchasing that product.


----------



## Audio_Images

Yes many have also started to tell consumers to stop looking at the specs only... JL since V2 has been saying in its manuals to not use the dB SPL speaker ratings as a judgment of quality or sound reproduction. Old days people wouldnt touch a speaker under 90dB spl or 105+ STN now theres not many that go over that so they dont want you to fear off.


----------



## 86mr2

Audio_Images said:


> fear off.


????


----------



## rexroadj

PPI-ART said:


> I agree with that to. But from a manufacturers point of view. Fair or unfair, there still will be the consumer who basis their purchase on purely specs and some from reviews or demos themselves.
> My point is to maximize sales IMHO companies need to have a balance of both options of demonstrating their products in diff. Ways to the consumer. But I agree that one persons opinion based on specs vs. One that demos or other forms of review of said product is each consumers right but should not be forced on someone else to make a decision about purchasing that product.


I think were both sort of saying the same thing here. I agree with all that you have said 100%. I guess what I should be saying rather then specs (although to me its the same mentality) people are forming opinions on the products due to the mother company rather then actual hands on experience and are poo pooing the stats given because of the company name? To me it was more about a "no reason to hate" sort of thing. It seems to be a pandemic on here!
I am not saying reviews should be taken into account as the gospel either(especially mine!). I am referring to actual hands on ownership but realize its not realistic to just go by something for the sake of seeing what its all about (although thats what I seem to do?), especially with the extreme lack of audio stores, and even more so the lack of options at the stores. They all carry the same stuff, obviously they are selling it, but limits those of us looking outside the box and then we are forced to look at the spec sheets and reviews as our only education.


----------



## jbowers

86mr2 said:


> ????


Fearing off sounds like some sort of squirrelly internet fetish involving Halloween masks and a full length mirror.


----------



## rommelrommel

Grizz Archer said:


> LOL I know buddy. A couple of my factories have Klippels. All I am saying is that I can provide anybody with the LMS parameters is they want them. My parameters are taken from 10 production samples each tested 10 time s each and at different times of the day with different ambient temperatures, etc... They are accurate as I can possibly get them... I do not need another Klippel test. But I can totally respect your desire, so I can sell you one for $39 directly if you want. If my LMS parameters are sufficient, email me directly and I will send you the spreadsheet...


My apologies, I wasn't trying to be insulting. When you said "However, they are cheap if _*he*_ wants to buy one" I was assuming you had misunderstood the original request.

I'm sure if you have the parameters many people, myself included, would appreciate it being posted here. Yes, specs only show so much but objective measurements have long been the gospel on this forum.

I will also be frank and say I find a lot of your products interesting, this woofer, the SS Stealth amps, but Audio_Images/his son have put a bad taste in my mouth about anything from Epsilon. It seems that you two are friends and perhaps you have more insight on the matter than people who have only seen the events on this forum and CA, but the optics have not been great.


----------



## rommelrommel

rexroadj said:


> ... people are forming opinions on the products due to the mother company rather then actual hands on experience and are poo pooing the stats given because of the company name? To me it was more about a "no reason to hate" sort of thing. It seems to be a pandemic on here!


Isn't this reasonable when the mother company has made crap, not stood behind their product, or has deliberately overstated power/handling abilities in the past? This is why people aren't buying a lot of domestic cars... right or wrong it's a reality. 

Please note, I'm not saying Epsilon is guilty of this now but some of their other brands have had some iffy products over the years.


----------



## PPI-ART

rexroadj said:


> I think were both sort of saying the same thing here. I agree with all that you have said 100%. I guess what I should be saying rather then specs (although to me its the same mentality) people are forming opinions on the products due to the mother company rather then actual hands on experience and are poo pooing the stats given because of the company name? To me it was more about a "no reason to hate" sort of thing. It seems to be a pandemic on here!
> I am not saying reviews should be taken into account as the gospel either(especially mine!). I am referring to actual hands on ownership but realize its not realistic to just go by something for the sake of seeing what its all about (although thats what I seem to do?), especially with the extreme lack of audio stores, and even more so the lack of options at the stores. They all carry the same stuff, obviously they are selling it, but limits those of us looking outside the box and then we are forced to look at the spec sheets and reviews as our only education.


Very true.

Some specs IMHO people put to much empasous on when making a decision but don't get me wrong certain specs should be looked at and sometimes people aren't educated enough to know what there even looking at when it comes to the stat sheet.


----------



## rexroadj

I never heard about the over stating or not standing behind the product so I cant speak about that. I do think it is wrong that people just assume that they didnt have the resorces or capability to make higher end products simply because they have been catering to a different part of the market then what most on here are used to. It made them money and helped to allow them to put forth a budget and create a new line of greater quality then they had produced before. It was more the mentality that people had that it couldnt be done that is un reasonable. (to me) I never owned power acoustik anything or any of there other lower lines but (this is seriously asking a question not arguing with you, I have no clue) is that stuff really crap or is it a specifically designed product line for a portion of the market (probably the largest portion) that they were targeting? Its not like they were putting out power acoustik and marketing it against Zapco...they were not even trying to go against pioneer, alpine, etc.... I think the markings and #s on the amps were more of a marketing/cosmetic thing for the targeted market rather then trying to embelish #s but again I could just be wishful thinking on this. As I have said I have never owned or even fiddled with that stuff. I knew it was not for me.


----------



## rexroadj

PPI-ART said:


> Very true.
> 
> Some specs IMHO people put to much empasous on when making a decision but don't get me wrong certain specs should be looked at and sometimes people aren't educated enough to know what there even looking at when it comes to the stat sheet.


YES, AND YES!!!


----------



## Grizz Archer

rommelrommel said:


> Isn't this reasonable when the mother company has made crap, not stood behind their product, or has deliberately overstated power/handling abilities in the past? This is why people aren't buying a lot of domestic cars... right or wrong it's a reality.
> 
> Please note, I'm not saying Epsilon is guilty of this now but some of their other brands have had some iffy products over the years.


It's ok to share your opinion buddy. I would agree with you to some extent. I will be the first person to tell you I would never have a Kole product in my car. SPL is a step up and a true entry level line that does much better. Power Acoustik is our bread winner, by far! That's our income. I have never owned a Power Acoustik product. But I can tell you this as my honest opinion - If I was streapped for cash and needed something reliable and a great bang for the buck, no question, I would buy PA in a heartbeat. People who use it, love it. I challenge anybody to put one of these amps up against a Best Buy comparably priced amplifier. We have done it when we made OEM products for them. We showed a certain Japanese brand monoblock sub amp versus ours for the same price. Ours had at least 5 times the parts and over 2.5 times the power for $10 less. I like the higher grade products myself, but there is nothing that I know of in the price range that can compare. Evertthing is more expensive or way lower quality, sometimes both. I would be cool to have one of you guys do a comparison.

Anyway, I just wanted to agree with you and respect your opinion. All opinions are good; it is the poor delivery of an opinion that suck and makes a person look foolish...


----------



## bassfromspace

rexroadj said:


> I never heard about the over stating or not standing behind the product so I cant speak about that. I do think it is wrong that people just assume that they didnt have the resorces or capability to make higher end products simply because they have been catering to a different part of the market then what most on here are used to. It made them money and helped to allow them to put forth a budget and create a new line of greater quality then they had produced before. It was more the mentality that people had that it couldnt be done that is un reasonable. (to me) I never owned power acoustik anything or any of there other lower lines but (this is seriously asking a question not arguing with you, I have no clue) is that stuff really crap or is it a specifically designed product line for a portion of the market (probably the largest portion) that they were targeting? Its not like they were putting out power acoustik and marketing it against Zapco...they were not even trying to go against pioneer, alpine, etc.... I think the markings and #s on the amps were more of a marketing/cosmetic thing for the targeted market rather then trying to embelish #s but again I could just be wishful thinking on this. As I have said I have never owned or even fiddled with that stuff. I knew it was not for me.


Your allegiance is blinding you.

We had a similar discussion in another thread where we talked about the quality of dealers that Epsilon has lined up to sell their new "high-end" product. My whole point was that if Epsilon wants to be taken seriously, they need to show it. 

I live in Dallas/Ft. Worth. In case you're not aware, it's the 4th largest metropolitan area in the nation by population and probably size to. It's larger than some states. The only PPI dealers in this particular areas are what we call "bazaars" which is another name for a flea market. That's unacceptable for a "high-end" brand.

Do you get where I'm getting at? No person looking for the best product is going to go to the 'hood to buy it. It just doesn't mesh with reality. And Epsilon's business mindset is reflecting in their dealer list. The CONSUMERS on this board are simply addressing the issue as such.

If Epsilon would like to change this impression, they need to produce product that high-end clientele are willing to buy, at places they want to go. What's the use in bitching your customers out when they're giving you a FREE MARKET ANALYSIS?

Overall, IMO, their choice of dealers and their refusal to adapt to the needs of the market totally back and sustain their business plan which is one based solely on the bottom line. Performance and product quality are second.


----------



## Grizz Archer

jonnyanalog said:


> Believe me when I say I can sympathize with you and Grizz I work for a heavy truck OEM down here in TX. It has taken more than the 8 years I've been here to make the management see that design, when implemented properly, can make a better product and more appealing. Its an uphill battle but its one that needs to be fought especially if you believe in the product. DEI screwed PPI harcore and thats a shame. Its a monumental task to raise a brand back up again. Ask GM and Chrysler how hard it has been to change perception. Ford is doing it. I think the same can be done for PPI.


Ahhhh yes, you do feel my pain. Thank you! Some people must think I am an idiot because I just don't release a pur e high-end line. When people will buy it, I WILL!!! :^)


----------



## Mtgrooves

Hey Grizz whats the word on the T6 woofers are we going to see them this summer?


----------



## rexroadj

bassfromspace said:


> Your allegiance is blinding you.
> 
> We had a similar discussion in another thread where we talked about the quality of dealers that Epsilon has lined up to sell their new "high-end" product. My whole point was that if Epsilon wants to be taken seriously, they need to show it.
> 
> I live in Dallas/Ft. Worth. In case you're not aware, it's the 4th largest metropolitan area in the nation by population and probably size to. It's larger than some states. The only PPI dealers in this particular areas are what we call "bazaars" which is another name for a flea market. That's unacceptable for a "high-end" brand.
> 
> Do you get where I'm getting at? No person looking for the best product is going to go to the 'hood to buy it. It just doesn't mesh with reality. And Epsilon's business mindset is reflecting in their dealer list. The CONSUMERS on this board are simply addressing the issue as such.
> 
> If Epsilon would like to change this impression, they need to produce product that high-end clientele are willing to buy, at places they want to go. What's the use in bitching your customers out when they're giving you a FREE MARKET ANALYSIS?
> Overall, IMO, their choice of dealers and their refusal to adapt to the needs of the market totally back and sustain their business plan which is one based solely on the bottom line. Performance and product quality are second.


My first question (not saying your wrong or being a smart ass just curious?) is that particular "flea market" an authorized dealer? Looking on the website there are very few out there. I actually got suckered in by what I thought was a legit dealer (mostly lower end in a private store) that said he was an authorized dealer (sold SPL) for soundstream and said he could get the new ppi stuff. I had bought the new soundstream refs through them with no problem, I ordered a pair of 8s and after talking with Grizz about them I was told they were not hitting any shops yet but I was told they were on there way to the store by the shop owner? Well I went to pick them up and after grilling the guy for a little while I found out he was ordering stuff from Sonic and selling them to me for a little less then retail. I assume the same was done with my ref amps. I had no idea! I was super pissed and told made sure I was given back the difference in $ for lying to me. I always TRY to order my stuff through local authorized shops when I can. I have terrible luck and dont take chances with online stuff. To me the online stores are the equivalent to a flea market regardless of what they are carrying. 
I guess what I am trying to say is whats your argument? I am going to assume that that "flea market" is not authorized so how is that Epsilons fault? Its super new as is the upper soundstream lines and getting shops to carry this stuff is going to take some time. Is my allegience blind me? I dont think so. I just disagree with you. I dont think there putting quality and performance 2nd as much as you think. I think (and I could be wrong) your still trying to compare them to what ppi was about in the 90s those days are long gone! That type of market is just to small (ask brax, tru, sinfoni, etc...) Maybe your just trying to put this new line on a pedistal its not meant for? I am just going to respectfully agree to disagree with you on your take on this.


----------



## Grizz Archer

WRX/Z28 said:


> Hmmmm... i've always wondered why people beleive they can completely evaluate a driver based solely on specs. At best, the spec's can give you an "educated guess" as to the products performance, but as i've learned, numbers on a piece of paper are surely not the end all be all.
> 
> Also, some place large amounts of weight on "technology". The microwave is a great techological advancement in cooking food, but does that mean the stove and my bbq grill are obsolete, or are not capable devices for cooking food? Does it absolutely guarantee the the microwave is a better innovation because it's "newer technology"?
> 
> So many people drivel on with such ******** about these things, it's amazing that so many buy into the ******** of a "know it all" forum member over the engineer's making the products.
> 
> I've never heard a new PPI product, and in fact, I was one of the people stating simply that "It has very little in common, or to do with the PPI of the 80's and 90's". This was not to say that it's not a solid product, but simply because I didn't understand the supposed "PPI old school guys" clamoring like it was the 2nd coming of christ, when the reality was that the O/S PPI designers make JL's stuff.
> 
> The product seems to have some thought put into it, and seems like Grizz had some goals in mind. Until you've seen it (or heard it rather), you can't really comment on how it will stack up against a "technologically superior" driver. To do so is asinine.
> 
> All the forum "know it all's" crawling out of the woodwork to discuss the merrits of a driver they've never heard, or even seen in person makes me laugh.
> 
> Carry on Grizz, as they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity, unless it's your obituary...


Oh boy now you did it! You started another one of those never ending arguments. No worries I got your back bro! :^) Specs can be wonderful for simulation. But I have tested woofers and components with great specs that sucked hardcore! On the flip side I haveb tested a woofer that does not have good specs at all, but in testing is had the proper power handling and sounds suprisingly good. It will be out next year and will not even come with specs because it is an entry level driver and specs would not do anything for sales...

Screw the microwave! That's great for kids. Nobody in their right mind would not prefer the BBQ. OH! Now I started some poop! LOL My ART SQ subs are BBQs and my Power Class subs microwaves. Bad analaogy for me to use things that cook I suppose. One day my sense of humor is going to hurt me... ;^)

You seem like my kind of guy. Just keep it real. I hate all the primadonna know-it-alls. As I said before, I have been studying 12V and audio theory for 27 years and it seems like I have not learned anything when I realize all that I want to know! So do guys with 5 or 10 or even 15 years know everything? Ya know what would be perfect?! If everybody on this forum realized that we are all a bunch of audio junkies trying to learn and that good or bad opinions matter, as long as we all realize they are OPINIONS, not facts. Yeah, like that will ever happen. :laugh:

Good input man...


----------



## PPI-ART

jonnyanalog said:


> Believe me when I say I can sympathize with you and Grizz I work for a heavy truck OEM down here in TX. It has taken more than the 8 years I've been here to make the management see that design, when implemented properly, can make a better product and more appealing. Its an uphill battle but its one that needs to be fought especially if you believe in the product. DEI screwed PPI harcore and thats a shame. Its a monumental task to raise a brand back up again. Ask GM and Chrysler how hard it has been to change perception. Ford is doing it. I think the same can be done for PPI.


I'm an engineer for GM. It's the most difficult challenge we face right now. Because no matter if we are making better products than the rest. Not saying were there yet but were trying damn hard. It's our most challenging obstacle. The products will get better but if we can't change public perception were fighting an uphill battle.

Sorry to stray off topic a little


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI-ART said:


> But that is the true nature of marketing a product. Most companies will pass of f their products for third party reviews because some consumers want an unbiased opinion of the products that are available to validate that they conform to what the manufacturer states about that product (ie.how the product performs in different environments and such not techie mumbo
> ) And some consumers will look only at the specs or parameters from the manufacturer and decide if the product is right for them based on complete specifications. Either way to fully market the products their has to be a balance
> Of both IMHO.


Yeah man, I send off my stuff sometimes for 3rd party reviews just to make sure I am not doing too much crack! It is good for me to get other opinions as multiples are always need to get an average idea of performance...


----------



## PPI-ART

Grizz Archer said:


> Yeah man, I send off my stuff sometimes for 3rd party reviews just to make sure I am not doing too much crack! It is good for me to get other opinions as multiples are always need to get an average idea of performance...


Not doing to much crack. LOL:laugh: well I guess we all at some point we all have to have a checker check the checkee.


----------



## Grizz Archer

bassfromspace said:


> Your allegiance is blinding you.
> 
> We had a similar discussion in another thread where we talked about the quality of dealers that Epsilon has lined up to sell their new "high-end" product. My whole point was that if Epsilon wants to be taken seriously, they need to show it.
> 
> I live in Dallas/Ft. Worth. In case you're not aware, it's the 4th largest metropolitan area in the nation by population and probably size to. It's larger than some states. The only PPI dealers in this particular areas are what we call "bazaars" which is another name for a flea market. That's unacceptable for a "high-end" brand.
> 
> Do you get where I'm getting at? No person looking for the best product is going to go to the 'hood to buy it. It just doesn't mesh with reality. And Epsilon's business mindset is reflecting in their dealer list. The CONSUMERS on this board are simply addressing the issue as such.
> 
> If Epsilon would like to change this impression, they need to produce product that high-end clientele are willing to buy, at places they want to go. What's the use in bitching your customers out when they're giving you a FREE MARKET ANALYSIS?
> 
> Overall, IMO, their choice of dealers and their refusal to adapt to the needs of the market totally back and sustain their business plan which is one based solely on the bottom line. Performance and product quality are second.


I need a favor. I need to name of these places NOW. I will not put up with this ****! It took 8 months to carefully pick out the PPI distributors. We already axed one for this crap! Sorry man, I am not upset with you, but this stuff does happen and I will not let it go. Please get me names or address and I will fix that immediately. PLEASE! Our national sales manager lives in Dallas and he will light those bastards up! I agree wirh everything you said, so I need your support in getting me these places. Then watch me work. I'm not the perfect angel everybody thinks I am (said with slight sarcasm). I will make sure these whores lose the line and possibly the distributor! Don't mess with a pissed-off Irishman! 

Seriously, I need you to get me the info on those places I mmediately. I will make it worth your time if you can get me names and addresses...


----------



## Grizz Archer

Mtgrooves said:


> Hey Grizz whats the word on the T6 woofers are we going to see them this summer?


You might want to put this in a Soundstream forum so I do not get beat up, but yeah, I think so. They are in production now...


----------



## Audio_Images

Grizz Archer said:


> Ahhhh yes, you do feel my pain. Thank you! Some people must think I am an idiot because I just don't release a pur e high-end line. When people will buy it, I WILL!!! :^)


I will lol!

Also people need to know that not all large buyout companys are the same. DEI bought great names and look what they did with it. It had potential based of the rep it had before aquisition. Epsilon does not seem to be taking the same approach. Redoing the Art series is an exaple, trying to get them back to the original. They wont ever be originals, and that is what people need to understand for fair comparison. But they also need to know just because 2 names come from the same factory of brands, does not make them the same by far. P/A and PPI do not even come from the same origin country but come from same owner. This does not mean any or all are bad.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> My first question (not saying your wrong or being a smart ass just curious?) is that particular "flea market" an authorized dealer? Looking on the website there are very few out there. I actually got suckered in by what I thought was a legit dealer (mostly lower end in a private store) that said he was an authorized dealer (sold SPL) for soundstream and said he could get the new ppi stuff. I had bought the new soundstream refs through them with no problem, I ordered a pair of 8s and after talking with Grizz about them I was told they were not hitting any shops yet but I was told they were on there way to the store by the shop owner? Well I went to pick them up and after grilling the guy for a little while I found out he was ordering stuff from Sonic and selling them to me for a little less then retail. I assume the same was done with my ref amps. I had no idea! I was super pissed and told made sure I was given back the difference in $ for lying to me. I always TRY to order my stuff through local authorized shops when I can. I have terrible luck and dont take chances with online stuff. To me the online stores are the equivalent to a flea market regardless of what they are carrying.
> I guess what I am trying to say is whats your argument? I am going to assume that that "flea market" is not authorized so how is that Epsilons fault? Its super new as is the upper soundstream lines and getting shops to carry this stuff is going to take some time. Is my allegience blind me? I dont think so. I just disagree with you. I dont think there putting quality and performance 2nd as much as you think. I think (and I could be wrong) your still trying to compare them to what ppi was about in the 90s those days are long gone! That type of market is just to small (ask brax, tru, sinfoni, etc...) Maybe your just trying to put this new line on a pedistal its not meant for? I am just going to respectfully agree to disagree with you on your take on this.


Please allow me to clarify something for everybody... Distributors will not divulge who they sell to for fear we will try to sell them directly. Pretty sad but that is the way it works. That is why I need help finding dealers like this. It is too bad that everbody is not direct, but eBay, swap meets and other whores that shady distributors sell to, ruined the loyalty and respect part of our industry. As for web sales... We had 2 legit places for Soundstream, everything else was without warranty. We gave SS to one company only and PPI to one company only and they both have to seel at MAP. The first product that goes out of either one will forfeit the line entirely to their biggest competion - the opposing company. They would be foolish to go below MAP.


----------



## Audio_Images

bassfromspace said:


> Your allegiance is blinding you.
> 
> We had a similar discussion in another thread where we talked about the quality of dealers that Epsilon has lined up to sell their new "high-end" product. My whole point was that if Epsilon wants to be taken seriously, they need to show it.
> 
> I live in Dallas/Ft. Worth. In case you're not aware, it's the 4th largest metropolitan area in the nation by population and probably size to. It's larger than some states. The only PPI dealers in this particular areas are what we call "bazaars" which is another name for a flea market. That's unacceptable for a "high-end" brand.
> 
> Do you get where I'm getting at? No person looking for the best product is going to go to the 'hood to buy it. It just doesn't mesh with reality. And Epsilon's business mindset is reflecting in their dealer list. The CONSUMERS on this board are simply addressing the issue as such.
> 
> If Epsilon would like to change this impression, they need to produce product that high-end clientele are willing to buy, at places they want to go. What's the use in bitching your customers out when they're giving you a FREE MARKET ANALYSIS?
> 
> Overall, IMO, their choice of dealers and their refusal to adapt to the needs of the market totally back and sustain their business plan which is one based solely on the bottom line. Performance and product quality are second.


That is also part of what I meant in my post about what else is hurting car audio shops. Not only the shady ones, but especially the honest ones.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Audio_Images said:


> I will lol!
> 
> Also people need to know that not all large buyout companys are the same. DEI bought great names and look what they did with it. It had potential based of the rep it had before aquisition. Epsilon does not seem to be taking the same approach. Redoing the Art series is an exaple, trying to get them back to the original. They wont ever be originals, and that is what people need to understand for fair comparison. But they also need to know just because 2 names come from the same factory of brands, does not make them the same by far. P/A and PPI do not even come from the same origin country but come from same owner. This does not mean any or all are bad.


Here is my opinion... DEI IS A FREAKING ALARM COMPANY!!! They are doing well with Orion which is good. They were nect to us at CES and when they saw the PPI line they came over and said they were glad somebody took it to the next level and that they never really got behind it. That was awesome to hear that compliment. Directed is a good company...


----------



## bassfromspace

rexroadj said:


> My first question (not saying your wrong or being a smart ass just curious?) is that particular "flea market" an authorized dealer? Looking on the website there are very few out there. I actually got suckered in by what I thought was a legit dealer (mostly lower end in a private store) that said he was an authorized dealer (sold SPL) for soundstream and said he could get the new ppi stuff. I had bought the new soundstream refs through them with no problem, I ordered a pair of 8s and after talking with Grizz about them I was told they were not hitting any shops yet but I was told they were on there way to the store by the shop owner? Well I went to pick them up and after grilling the guy for a little while I found out he was ordering stuff from Sonic and selling them to me for a little less then retail. I assume the same was done with my ref amps. I had no idea! I was super pissed and told made sure I was given back the difference in $ for lying to me. I always TRY to order my stuff through local authorized shops when I can. I have terrible luck and dont take chances with online stuff. To me the online stores are the equivalent to a flea market regardless of what they are carrying.
> I guess what I am trying to say is whats your argument? I am going to assume that that "flea market" is not authorized so how is that Epsilons fault? Its super new as is the upper soundstream lines and getting shops to carry this stuff is going to take some time. Is my allegience blind me? I dont think so. I just disagree with you. I dont think there putting quality and performance 2nd as much as you think. I think (and I could be wrong) your still trying to compare them to what ppi was about in the 90s those days are long gone! That type of market is just to small (ask brax, tru, sinfoni, etc...) Maybe your just trying to put this new line on a pedistal its not meant for? I am just going to respectfully agree to disagree with you on your take on this.


I'm reading the dealer list right off of Soundstream's website.

I'm saying your allegiance is blinding you, because your argument is built on happenstance and "whatifs". 

I entered 75201 into their dealer search engine.

1. The first entry is a run down building in a run down part of town.

2. The second entry is at a place called Big T Bazaar. Go to Youtube and type "Big T Bazaar" into the search area and tell me what you come up with.

Overall, I think most "detractors" aren't really being negative, but are disappointed with the quality of product Epsilon has brought to the table and are expressing that disappointment.


----------



## Audio_Images

Grizz Archer said:


> Here is my opinion... DEI IS A FREAKING ALARM COMPANY!!! They are doing well with Orion which is good. They were nect to us at CES and when they saw the PPI line they came over and said they were glad somebody took it to the next level and that they never really got behind it. That was awesome to hear that compliment. Directed is a good company...


Yep. And There are diehard Orion fans who think it was better after aquisition of them too, (not me). Many though however think they bit off way more then they could chew too. Directed makes good alarms true. Alpine made better audio than alarms tho lol... 

Remember when others would by from PPI under other names? Outsourcing but in a positive way? That is what made it great.... MTX, Sansui, JL Audio, G&S, Crutchfield, PSL/Special Edition etc, all good stuff.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Totally off topic, but why is it that I rarely see anybody put their age on their info? Id it because the young ones think nobody will take them seriously? I'll bet this is why. It would help me greatly if I knew how old people are. Lets me know what demographic wants what. Seems like everybody wants to talke like they are 35+ with 15 years of experience. Let me tell you something. Experience is something but not everything. Ever trusted your car to some clown at a major store because he had to be MECP certified to get a job there? What about the back yard installer that does fiberglass and paint like a freaking Van Gogh? Everybody has their talents and lack of talent. Same goes for knowledge. I desperately hope that one day this forum will relax a bit and get back to the fun of learning. I want to learn which is a main reason for being here. I do NOT want to listen to whiny ass kids trying to 1-up each other with their knowledge. There are very few facts in this industry, and primarily opinions. If brand blahblahblah was the best by fact, there would be no other companies. There is Zapco, Arc, PPI, Genesis, Soundstream, Tru, Sinfoni and other companys that make a great product. It is our PRECEPTION, OPINIONS and EXPERIENCES that make these companies survive. If we can accept this, we can all be more open minded and share more freely without worrying about some primadonna ******* slamming his opinion down somebody else's throat. Let's all chill and learn from the fresh minds and the old minds alike...


----------



## Grizz Archer

bassfromspace said:


> I'm reading the dealer list right off of Soundstream's website.
> 
> I'm saying your allegiance is blinding you, because your argument is built on happenstance and "whatifs".
> 
> I entered 75201 into their dealer search engine.
> 
> 1. The first entry is a run down building in a run down part of town.
> 
> 2. The second entry is at a place called Big T Bazaar. Go to Youtube and type "Big T Bazaar" into the search area and tell me what you come up with.
> 
> Overall, I think most "detractors" aren't really being negative, but are disappointed with the quality of product Epsilon has brought to the table and are expressing that disappointment.


I respect your opinion. Please do not buy any of our products!


----------



## 89grand

I don't have my age listed, but I'm 42, not everyone hides their youngness.


----------



## Audio_Images

lol couldnt have said it better. Mines up.


----------



## PPI-ART

Grizz Archer said:


> Totally off topic, but why is it that I rarely see anybody put their age on their info? Id it because the young ones think nobody will take them seriously? I'll bet this is why. It would help me greatly if I knew how old people are. Lets me know what demographic wants what. Seems like everybody wants to talke like they are 35+ with 15 years of experience. Let me tell you something. Experience is something but not everything. Ever trusted your car to some clown at a major store because he had to be MECP certified to get a job there? What about the back yard installer that does fiberglass and paint like a freaking Van Gogh? Everybody has their talents and lack of talent. Same goes for knowledge. I desperately hope that one day this forum will relax a bit and get back to the fun of learning. I want to learn which is a main reason for being here. I do NOT want to listen to whiny ass kids trying to 1-up each other with their knowledge. There are very few facts in this industry, and primarily opinions. If brand blahblahblah was the best by fact, there would be no other companies. There is Zapco, Arc, PPI, Genesis, Soundstream, Tru, Sinfoni and other companys that make a great product. It is our PRECEPTION, OPINIONS and EXPERIENCES that make these companies survive. If we can accept this, we can all be more open minded and share more freely without worrying about some primadonna ******* slamming his opinion down somebody else's throat. Let's all chill and learn from the fresh minds and the old minds alike...


Well said.


----------



## Audio_Images

just curious how old are you PPI-ART?


----------



## PPI-ART

Turning 37 this month. Technically 36. Any reason?


----------



## chad

PPI-ART said:


> Turning 37 this month. Technically 36. Any reason?


he only dates the younger ones.


----------



## jonnyanalog

PPI-ART said:


> I'm an engineer for GM. It's the most difficult challenge we face right now. Because no matter if we are making better products than the rest. Not saying were there yet but were trying damn hard. It's our most challenging obstacle. The products will get better but if we can't change public perception were fighting an uphill battle.
> 
> Sorry to stray off topic a little


Ha! Thats cool. I know where you are coming from. 
I might apply for a designer(styling) job up there. What area do you work in?


----------



## rommelrommel

Grizz Archer said:


> Totally off topic, but why is it that I rarely see anybody put their age on their info?


I'm not a fan of putting unnecessary personal info online, but for the sake of informed discussion, I'm 30.


----------



## PPI-ART

jonnyanalog said:


> Ha! Thats cool. I know where you are coming from.
> I might apply for a designer(styling) job up there. What area do you work in?


I'm in the Controls,Robotics,and Welding group. I am a robotic engineer. I mainly develop advanced robotic manufacturing processes and applications, also tooling design and processing of manufacturing systems.

I am based of the GM tech center. Our building is right next to the GM design center building. Good luck let me know if it pans out.


----------



## Audio_Images

PPI-ART said:


> Turning 37 this month. Technically 36. Any reason?


Na its cool just curious.


----------



## Audio_Images

chad said:


> he only dates the younger ones.


lol ya thats it... my wife is older tho I should have asked for ID I guess.


----------



## jonnyanalog

Sweet. thats some cool stuff! Those robots never cease to amaze me. I work at Peterbilt in Denton. The plant behind the engineering center is just starting to become more automated. Heavy truck manufacturing for the most part is still somewhat in the dark ages and SLOWLY catching up. Europe for the most part is way ahead of us technologically in the truck market. 
Hell PB still uses a huck bolted cab thats as old as I am!!


----------



## PPI-ART

jonnyanalog said:


> Sweet. thats some cool stuff! Those robots never cease to amaze me. I work at Peterbilt in Denton. The plant behind the engineering center is just starting to become more automated. Heavy truck manufacturing for the most part is still somewhat in the dark ages and SLOWLY catching up. Europe for the most part is way ahead of us technologically in the truck market.
> Hell PB still uses a huck bolted cab thats as old as I am!!


Yea their pretty sweet. We have some robots that can pick whole vehicles up and whip them around like their paper weights. It's a good job. Always working with new technology. 

Sorry guys for off topic.


----------



## jlohrenz

This has been an interesting thread which I hope more so pertains to the amps than anything else. I just invested in the PPI PC3.65C and PC2.65C components for my new setup!


----------



## 89grand

Audio_Images said:


> lol ya thats it... my wife is older tho I should have asked for ID I guess.


I've seen your wife. You're a lucky man.


----------



## alachua

Glad to see this discussion turn civil over the last few pages.

Grizz, you had mentioned debating between class A/B and D designs and the placement of the Art line in the hierarchy of the brand. I think you made a number of valid points, but my question is: why have multiple lines designed to appeal to different levels of consumer all using the same technology? You had mentioned staying true to the heritage of the Art Series, which is something I can understand. Why not then leverage the Power Class with newer technology? It seems this is your current strategy with the speakers, at least from what I can gather from the website.

I think this thread shows how difficult it is to design a product for a nameplate with so much history. On one hand, you have people who have a very emotional attachment to what _they_ feel the brand represented/represents. Any deviation from what they feel is 'right' for the brand is a tough sell, this is made even harder based upon the fact that the brand is under new ownership, versus the benefit of the doubt that a long term owner of the company may have in changing directions. If Eric from Image Dynamics came online tomorrow and said 'we are eliminating all our horns and introducing a new line of wide band drivers', people would be more willing to try the product with an opened mind, compared to a new parent company saying the same thing. On the other hand, you have people who are brand agnostic but are simply looking for something specific in a product, be it technology, cost, performance, size, etc... 

I think bassfromspace and others hit on the other biggest difference now compared to the past, which is that the majority of us cannot walk into our local dealer and let your product speak for itself. Even if we have someone local to buy from, there is little guarantee that they will have the product set up to demo and an even slimmer chance that the demo will be in a setting that will allow us to really decide (I am guessing the Art SQ8 won't exactly knock my socks off in a 17'x12' listening room). This leaves us having to make educated guesses based upon specs, design, past performance of similar models and measurements. 

My last question has to do with your online distribution. Your authorized online retailers are limited to selling your product at MAP, opposed to other lines they may sell where they have more discretion in pricing. Also, since a person may shop different brands on different sites, are you concerned that this may cause the casual shopper to have a negative value impression of your lines compared to its direct competitors in the market?

Oh, and since this seems to be the '...and get off my lawn' support thread, I'm just a month over thirty. :laugh:


----------



## Audio_Images

IanB! said:


> Yeah, lucky she doesn't eat him.


lol????


----------



## Audio_Images

In another thread I noticed a link to Zed. I am curious now if the Art stuff was technically class D design as they said if the amps had PWM supplies which the latter Art did, but D was not completly released yet. Did we help start a class D build trend? I knew when I was installing the PWM supplies, they were awesome....

"Class D amplifiers are of the switching variety. Technically they are Pulse Width Modulated switching power supplies where the modulation is the audio signal." quoted from the ZED site. I am wondering how they now classify class D as amps with the PWM supplies... Infinity had "D" a tad later but... again pre H.I. ZED? I am wondering if they are class D but not called that as it was not called that till later? I wonder if they just capitalized on the PWM as D when the originals were A/B?? Thoughts?


----------



## OSN

Audio_Images said:


> In another thread I noticed a link to Zed. I am curious now if the Art stuff was technically class D design as they said if the amps had PWM supplies which the latter Art did, but D was not completly released yet. Did we help start a class D build trend? I knew when I was installing the PWM supplies, they were awesome....
> 
> "Class D amplifiers are of the switching variety. Technically they are Pulse Width Modulated switching power supplies where the modulation is the audio signal." quoted from the ZED site. I am wondering how they now classify class D as amps with the PWM supplies... Infinity had "D" a tad later but... again pre H.I. ZED? I am wondering if they are class D but not called that as it was not called that till later? I wonder if they just capitalized on the PWM as D when the originals were A/B?? Thoughts?


Please contact Zed for all of your Zed questions. He is quite witty and charming.


----------



## imjustjason




----------



## WRX/Z28

Audio_Images said:


> In another thread I noticed a link to Zed. I am curious now if the Art stuff was technically class D design as they said if the amps had PWM supplies which the latter Art did, but D was not completly released yet. Did we help start a class D build trend? I knew when I was installing the PWM supplies, they were awesome....
> 
> "Class D amplifiers are of the switching variety. Technically they are Pulse Width Modulated switching power supplies where the modulation is the audio signal." quoted from the ZED site. I am wondering how they now classify class D as amps with the PWM supplies... Infinity had "D" a tad later but... again pre H.I. ZED? I am wondering if they are class D but not called that as it was not called that till later? I wonder if they just capitalized on the PWM as D when the originals were A/B?? Thoughts?


Listen to this guy: YouTube - An Overview of Class D Audio Amplifiers

Not this guy: YouTube - Amplifier Tips : Mono D-class Car Stereo Amplifiers


----------



## chad

Audio_Images said:


> In another thread I noticed a link to Zed. I am curious now if the Art stuff was technically class D design as they said if the amps had PWM supplies which the latter Art did, but D was not completly released yet. Did we help start a class D build trend? I knew when I was installing the PWM supplies, they were awesome....


They are ALL PWM supplies, the D/ A/B is in reference to the power amp section.

A PWM supply is a DC/DC converter. +12V DC in, converted to AC by pulsing said DC, these pulses hit a transformer, the transformer is center tapped, this arrangement allows the center tapped AC CURRENT (NOW AC not pulsed DC) to be rectified into a bipolar voltage for a class AB amplifier.

Transformers don't work at DC, you have to increase the 12VDC and change it bipolar, PWM is the only way to go with a power supply no matter what the topology of the output stage is.


----------



## OSN

chad said:


> blah blah blah words words words


Why can't you just give credit where credit is due?


----------



## WRX/Z28

OSN said:


> Why can't you just give credit where credit is due?


Wha? Did I miss something?


----------



## DS-21

WRX/Z28 said:


> Hmmmm... i've always wondered why people beleive they can completely evaluate a driver based solely on specs. At best, the spec's can give you an "educated guess" as to the products performance, but as i've learned, numbers on a piece of paper are surely not the end all be all.


The quick answer is, "it depends on the specs offered." If one has a driver as fully characterized on paper as we know how to do (frequency response, Klippel measurements of performance over excursion, unit-unit consistency) some who knows a thing or two can come damn close to being definitive on the quality that driver without ever picking it up.

Also, a reasonable person can infer from the absence of detailed specifications that the firm offering the product in question is either putting out an inferior product (and therefore wants to hide the ball on that) or is too technically incompetent to know what in fact they are offering.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Also, some place large amounts of weight on "technology". The microwave is a great techological advancement in cooking food,


That's a worthless analogy, because audio gear is about _reproducing_ and microwaves and grilles represent different ways of _producing_ cooked food. (Though one could make the case that a microwave is better at reproducing, aka reheating, food than a BBQ, I suppose...)

But let's take the same general theme and make a valid analogy out of it. Isn't it fair to say that a stove that gets hotter faster (and cools down faster) with a finer range of adjustment and equal or better durability and aesthetics is superior to a stove of equal cooking area that is lacking in one of those areas?



WRX/Z28 said:


> Hey, it's old technology. Can't be any good with a solid rear axle right? Couldn't possibly handle well, could it? Come see me in the turns. I'll embarass a lot of "sports car's" with "newer technology".


That depends on one's definition of "well," and what compromises were reached to get there. A cart axle can handle on smooth roads, sure. And any car with giant tires and big power can be made to go fast; there's nothing special about that. But a modern suspension similarly optimized will do its job (keeping the tires' contact patches on the ground) better on all surfaces and with better ride quality.


----------



## Audio_Images

chad said:


> They are ALL PWM supplies, the D/ A/B is in reference to the power amp section.
> 
> A PWM supply is a DC/DC converter. +12V DC in, converted to AC by pulsing said DC, these pulses hit a transformer, the transformer is center tapped, this arrangement allows the center tapped AC CURRENT (NOW AC not pulsed DC) to be rectified into a bipolar voltage for a class AB amplifier.
> 
> Transformers don't work at DC, you have to increase the 12VDC and change it bipolar, PWM is the only way to go with a power supply no matter what the topology of the output stage is.


Ok so they were not really D then...I guess for the time they were "state of the art"....


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> What hype are you talking about. I don't use hype to sell products. The PPI website is being rebuilt from scratch which takes quite awhile. If you want to know more, that is my sole reason for being here.


There's nothing but hype on the PPI website right now. Not even anything as basic as T/S parameters for the drivers. Presumably, the website is considered a way to sell products. And you are, as Marketing Director, either actually or imputedly in control of the PPI website. Therefore, on its face, your statement is wrong.

As Marshall on How I Met Your Mother would say, "Lawyered!"

If you want to win here, to mix TV metaphors, as the ghost of Mrs. Landingham told President Bartlet, "tell [us] numbers."



Grizz Archer said:


> Yes there is a shorting ring on the Art SQ series motors.


Good to know, thanks. You might wanna get your copywriters to note that, because people care. And when something like that isn't mentioned, reasonable people assume the product likewise omits it.



Grizz Archer said:


> Yes, I have all of the LMS parameters available for everybody that asks.


That's the kind of obsolete-think closed-minded car-fi industry garbage that infuriates me, and one of the reasons the car-fi industry got itself in such trouble. 

People *shouldn't have to ask about basic specifications!* It should just bloody *be there.* 

What the hell is the point of a website if it's just going to hold asinine and vacuous propaganda?



Grizz Archer said:


> I would like to know why you think that multiple gaps and shorting ring makes a better driver.


Multiple gaps, if implemented well, will give more linear BL over excursion compared to a standard overhung driver, at lower cost than an underhung driver of the same throw. They're neither sufficient nor necessary for a driver to have top-rank measured (and thus audible) performance, but implemented well can improve performance.

Faraday rings lower distortion and both lower Le and linearize Le over excursion. A good shorting ring design is not a sufficient condition to make a driver top-tier, but it is a necessary one.

No offense, but duh!



Grizz Archer said:


> I cannot think of a tons of high-end drivers in car or home audio that use this technology.


Seriously? Look harder. Every speaker worth a damn has shorting rings in the drivers' motors. Yes, there's some expensive garbage out there, but "high end" isn't that interesting generally. High _fidelity_ is often not "high end" today in "rooms larger than a typical car" audio, when there are $300 Behringer active monitors and >$200 Infinity bookshelf speakers that are far more competently designed than any number of $25k "high end" speakers, with better measured and audible performance.

There are also more than a few uses of multiple gap motors as well. Hsu Research's better subs use XBL^2, for instance. The BG Radia in-walls. Many of JBL's better speakers use their Differential Drive motor, which is kind of the inverse of a dual gap motor. (See Mowry's excellent summary of BL linearizing motor designs in this month's _Voice Coil.[/b]) And others sidestep that by going underhung. (The SVS Ultra sub, for example, the Aura NS drivers, and I think all of Thiel's drivers.)



Grizz Archer said:



Thank you, that is exactly what I was shoooting for. An affordable driver with great performance without all of the wild stuff.

Click to expand...

Sounds like you've been around car-fi too long. Car-fi people think in terms of gaudy graphics and the like. (Though I would call the plasti-copper dustcap and PPI graphic "wild stuff"; something with that gaudy appearance would never find its way in a car of mine.) Things like modern motors are not "wild stuff," but "best practices." 

And, as I noted, other companies manage to provide them with known high levels of performance for the same (or significantly less) money than your stuff is going for. (The channel through which it's sold just isn't relevant to the modern consumer.)



Grizz Archer said:



Now, how many time have you seen them in a car audio shop? I work for a car audio company and engineer products that will sell to consumers in car audio shops, not home audio catalogs and websites.

Click to expand...

That's a distinction without a difference today, unless you want to severely limit your market. I, like many of us, have not stepped foot in a "car audio shop" in years. And have no interest/desire to do so. 



Grizz Archer said:



If you do not mind me asking, what is your beef with my company, me, or my products. Your aggressive attitude is not needed to get your point accross.

Click to expand...

No offense, but what makes you think you're getting special treatment? I don't care one way or another about your company, to be frank. Now, I would prefer that the market generally offers better products for end-users. I've not asked you any questions that I wouldn't put to anyone else who comes here hawking new wares without offering any actual data on them. I think other long-time members can vouch for that. 



Grizz Archer said:



And actually, I still do not get your point. If you love the Treo or Peerless drivers, then why are you even jumping into this thread, other than just to make agressive insults. I guess I just want to know what you are getting out of this...

Click to expand...

I don't "love" them, or anything else. OK, I'll admit some general positive bias towards the wares of McIntosh, Tannoy (at least the Dual Concentrics; non-Dual Tannoy stuff doesn't get brownie points from me), and Aurasound (just the NRT motored stuff, though Aura's only non-NRT motor driver that I've heard, one of the Force line subs, was also quite good). But that's the extent of it. Otherwise, names are interchangeable to me. 

Those two drivers just happen to be two of the highest-performance 8" midbass/subwoofers out there at any price right now, and they're cheap. If Brand N comes out with a woofer that outperforms either of those at the same cost, or performs equally well at a significantly lower cost, the Brand N woofer would've been my point of reference.

My point is, you could've come back by saying something like, "well, ours have x% more xmax. As you can see from this Klippel graph of BL-x." Or, "ours have lower inductance and lower inductance variation over excursion, as you can see here" Or "ours extend higher before breakup, as you can see from this graph." 

I was giving you a chance to say why one should give your product the time of day, and you took it as an attack. Why are you so damn defensive, Grizz?

And it's Tro, not Tr[e]o. It's the name of a driver that I believe was first OEM'ed for BG Radia and later sold to the hobbyist market by Creative Sound Solutions. Seems like the best value in 8" midbass/woofers right now, though Harman also has one that's quite good sold under their JBL and Infinity lines.



Grizz Archer said:



PeePI? Classy buddy! Immense creativity in your insults! Why don;t you just come out claim that you hate our product and what ever other brands all at once? Be honest...

Click to expand...

Why was "PeePI" considered offensive, but my other attempts to avoid the repugnant new auto-link crap (PPeeI, PPEye) were presumably not? Take a deep breath, man. 



Grizz Archer said:



I hear ya. So imagine this and give me your honest opinion. What if we would have made Art Series in full-range Class-D Would you buy it? I am guessing that everybody but a few would think we royally screwed up.

Click to expand...

That's not a question one can reasonably answer. The only thing posited is the name. Everything important is left unstated: what size, what features, what power, what appearance, and of course what price. Amps are commodity parts that all sound the same, so the goodwill premium any firm should expect to attract from their brand name will be slight at best. Today, the going MSRP for a modern 125-150W x 4 amp is probably around $500-600, with a street price of considerably less. (For instance, a Kenwood_ XR-4S refurb at Crutchfield right now is $250. That's an excellent amp: powerful, compact, and sounds the same as any other competently-designed amp.)

That said, an Art amp that was of useful power, small size, and competitive price would certainly attract my attention. I think it's fair to say that I have bought two modern echt-PPI (that is to say, amps designed by the people who designed the real stuff, and produced under their supervision) amps in 2010: Jello HD600/4 and MHD900/5. 
(As well as other modern Class D amps from Eclipse_ and Kenwood_.)



Grizz Archer said:



When we make products like Human Reign, we address the extremely high end market, but do you buy any? Nope! Who does? Hardly anybody!

Click to expand...

And why would they? They're expensive and large, without offering any performance benefit over smaller and cheaper stuff. People want amps that are small and reasonably priced. And why not? Non-idiots realize that amps all sound the same, so there's no benefit to wasting extra space or spending more.



Grizz Archer said:



Hey man, if I had my way, I would released an all new Pro-Mos series, but I got shut down. And they are probably right. Who is going to buy a 2x12.5 watt amp?! Maybe 3 people on this forum and myself.

Click to expand...

That is because such an amp would be a response to conditions that no longer exist (stupid competition rules of the day). But if you look at Zuki Audio, it's clear that at least some people are buying amps with farcical ratings today. (Their main amp is rated at 5W x 4. More than two DIYMAers have bought them.)



Grizz Archer said:



Most people on the forums know what brands they like and this is just a place for everybody to argue.

Click to expand...

For someone claiming not to be in marketing (despite your job title), you're writing like a marketer. It's not about "brands," it's about performance and value for the money. Frankly, the only "brand" in car audio today that's worth any price premium at all just by virtue of the name is McIntosh. Everyone else only earns premiums by the quality of their product. A JBL MS-8 sold as a Pyle 8-box would still be worth what Andy & Co. charge for it, because it's of objectively high performance.



Grizz Archer said:



Ahhhh yes, you do feel my pain. Thank you! Some people must think I am an idiot because I just don't release a pur e high-end line. When people will buy it, I WILL!!! :^)

Click to expand...

I think you have this strange marketeer's fixation on "high-end." Who cares? How about just make stuff that meets modern needs? Especially when we're talking about commodity parts such as audio amplifiers. And modern needs are smaller, lighter, more powerful, cooler-running, arguably more features. Anything else is trying to re-lose the battles of the 1990s that threw car-fi into a tailspin in the first place!

Perhaps you thinks there's money to be made in bucking modernity by marketing antiquated amplifiers and retrofuturistic speakers, thinking that there are people who are more interested in nostalgia than performance. You may in fact even be making the correct bet in the market, though I doubt it and have been complaining about the car-fi industry's stubborn refusal to offer modern amps since at least 2004.. But even if you are right in terms of sales, will a worship-the-antequated approach get informed, modern car-fi buyers interested in your products? Not really. But it might infuriate them because they're seeing marques from their youth that use to be run by people who were legitimately at the forefront recycled and used rather cynically. Just sayin'._


----------



## Audio_Images

good gravy....


----------



## imjustjason

Too much reading? Over your head?


----------



## WRX/Z28

DS-21 said:


> The quick answer is, "it depends on the specs offered." If one has a driver as fully characterized on paper as we know how to do (frequency response, Klippel measurements of performance over excursion, unit-unit consistency) some who knows a thing or two can come damn close to being definitive on the quality that driver without ever picking it up.



And then with this information can predict how they will perform in any given vehicle? on axis, or 10-20-30-90 degrees off axis? With any given amount of power, or amplifier clipping? in all temperature ranges? and after interacting with noise in the cabin, or other obstacles in the car? 

Educated guess at best bud. That's all they can provide. 



DS-21 said:


> Also, a reasonable person can infer from the absence of detailed specifications that the firm offering the product in question is either putting out an inferior product (and therefore wants to hide the ball on that) or is too technically incompetent to know what in fact they are offering.


Grizz has said that he can provide spec's to those that need them. 




DS-21 said:


> That's a worthless analogy, because audio gear is about _reproducing_ and microwaves and grilles represent different ways of _producing_ cooked food. (Though one could make the case that a microwave is better at reproducing, aka reheating, food than a BBQ, I suppose...)


I thought it was pretty appropriate... Microwave's are newer technology. They heat more efficiently, but do they produce the same results as perceived by humans? 



DS-21 said:


> But let's take the same general theme and make a valid analogy out of it. Isn't it fair to say that a stove that gets hotter faster (and cools down faster) with a finer range of adjustment and equal or better durability and aesthetics is superior to a stove of equal cooking area that is lacking in one of those areas?


Some people prefer electric ranges, other's prefer gas. Gas heats more quickly, but electric heat's more evenly. To say one is unequivocally better than the other is silly. 

What if stove A that's 12,000 btu's of thermal energy is compared on paper to stove B that's 16,000 btu's. Stove B is automatically better? What about for simmering tomato sauce? What if Stove B has hot spots? What if it can't keep a low enough flame going to simmer sauce without burning it? What if the house is drafty and the height of the burner of stove B subjects the flame to that draft causing uneven heating? The spec's may not cover every contingency. 

Driver spec's are the same way. They are useful measurements, but to say they are absolute, or offer anything more than an educated guess is simply overstating their usefullness. 





DS-21 said:


> That depends on one's definition of "well," and what compromises were reached to get there. A cart axle can handle on smooth roads, sure. And any car with giant tires and big power can be made to go fast; there's nothing special about that. But a modern suspension similarly optimized will do its job (keeping the tires' contact patches on the ground) better on all surfaces and with better ride quality.


Better on all surfaces? Really? Want to rethink that one a little?

To what power level? In what vehicle? in what type of racing?


----------



## DS-21

WRX/Z28 said:


> And then with this information can predict how they will perform in any given vehicle? on axis, or 10-20-30-90 degrees off axis?


Any driver of similar piston size will be equally affected by those conditions, so yes.



WRX/Z28 said:


> With any given amount of power, or amplifier clipping?


Yes



WRX/Z28 said:


> in all temperature ranges?


With the right specs, yes. (Though sometimes I suppose adhesive failure could be an issue.)



WRX/Z28 said:


> and after interacting with noise in the cabin, or other obstacles in the car?


Any driver of similar piston size will be equally affected by those conditions, so yes.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Grizz has said that he can provide spec's to those that need them.


Yeah, for $40 bucks he'll tell you if the motor and suspension on his $90 driver is worth a damn. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> I thought it was pretty appropriate... Microwave's are newer technology. They heat more efficiently, but do they produce the same results as perceived by humans?


As usual when discussing this sort of thing, you're wrong.

Your analogy is largely without merit (whereas my riff on it is meritorious) because *there has never been a controlled listening same/different listening evaluation showing any sonic difference between two nonbroken and competently designed amps.*

BUT, in some limited cases I see your point. One shouldn't expect any difference between plain water heated on a stove to a given temperature and plain water heated in a microwave to the same temp. That is a valid analogy to the role of a car audio amplifier in a music reproduction system, whereas "cooking food" is not as there are way too many variables there.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Some people prefer electric ranges, other's prefer gas. Gas heats more quickly, but electric heat's more evenly. To say one is unequivocally better than the other is silly.


Then there's induction cooktops, which seem to combine the best of both. (I've been told. I just use gas, though I'd consider induction in the future.)



WRX/Z28 said:


> Better on all surfaces? Really? Want to rethink that one a little?
> To what power level? In what vehicle? in what type of racing?


Nope. A well-optimized independent suspension will be better at everything than a well-optimized cart axle. No need to "rethink" that one.


----------



## chad

Audio_Images said:


> Ok so they were not really D then...I guess for the time they were "state of the art"....


Eh not really, they did it in old skool car radios that ran tubes, they pulsed DC with a vibrator (basically a really fast blinker) to pulse the 12V DC to hit a transformer to kick it up, rectify it and use it for the plate voltage.


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> There's nothing but hype on the PPI website right now. Not even anything as basic as T/S parameters for the drivers. Presumably, the website is considered a way to sell products. And you are, as Marketing Director, either actually or imputedly in control of the PPI website. Therefore, on its face, your statement is wrong.
> 
> As Marshall on How I Met Your Mother would say, "Lawyered!"
> 
> If you want to win here, to mix TV metaphors, as the ghost of Mrs. Landingham told President Bartlet, "tell [us] numbers."
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know, thanks. You might wanna get your copywriters to note that, because people care. And when something like that isn't mentioned, reasonable people assume the product likewise omits it.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the kind of obsolete-think closed-minded car-fi industry garbage that infuriates me, and one of the reasons the car-fi industry got itself in such trouble.
> 
> People *shouldn't have to ask about basic specifications!* It should just bloody *be there.*
> 
> What the hell is the point of a website if it's just going to hold asinine and vacuous propaganda?
> 
> 
> 
> Multiple gaps, if implemented well, will give more linear BL over excursion compared to a standard overhung driver, at lower cost than an underhung driver of the same throw. They're neither sufficient nor necessary for a driver to have top-rank measured (and thus audible) performance, but implemented well can improve performance.
> 
> Faraday rings lower distortion and both lower Le and linearize Le over excursion. A good shorting ring design is not a sufficient condition to make a driver top-tier, but it is a necessary one.
> 
> No offense, but duh!
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? Look harder. Every speaker worth a damn has shorting rings in the drivers' motors. Yes, there's some expensive garbage out there, but "high end" isn't that interesting generally. High _fidelity_ is often not "high end" today in "rooms larger than a typical car" audio, when there are $300 Behringer active monitors and >$200 Infinity bookshelf speakers that are far more competently designed than any number of $25k "high end" speakers, with better measured and audible performance.
> 
> There are also more than a few uses of multiple gap motors as well. Hsu Research's better subs use XBL^2, for instance. The BG Radia in-walls. Many of JBL's better speakers use their Differential Drive motor, which is kind of the inverse of a dual gap motor. (See Mowry's excellent summary of BL linearizing motor designs in this month's _Voice Coil.[/b]) And others sidestep that by going underhung. (The SVS Ultra sub, for example, the Aura NS drivers, and I think all of Thiel's drivers.)
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you've been around car-fi too long. Car-fi people think in terms of gaudy graphics and the like. (Though I would call the plasti-copper dustcap and PPI graphic "wild stuff"; something with that gaudy appearance would never find its way in a car of mine.) Things like modern motors are not "wild stuff," but "best practices."
> 
> And, as I noted, other companies manage to provide them with known high levels of performance for the same (or significantly less) money than your stuff is going for. (The channel through which it's sold just isn't relevant to the modern consumer.)
> 
> 
> 
> That's a distinction without a difference today, unless you want to severely limit your market. I, like many of us, have not stepped foot in a "car audio shop" in years. And have no interest/desire to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> No offense, but what makes you think you're getting special treatment? I don't care one way or another about your company, to be frank. Now, I would prefer that the market generally offers better products for end-users. I've not asked you any questions that I wouldn't put to anyone else who comes here hawking new wares without offering any actual data on them. I think other long-time members can vouch for that.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't "love" them, or anything else. OK, I'll admit some general positive bias towards the wares of McIntosh, Tannoy (at least the Dual Concentrics; non-Dual Tannoy stuff doesn't get brownie points from me), and Aurasound (just the NRT motored stuff, though Aura's only non-NRT motor driver that I've heard, one of the Force line subs, was also quite good). But that's the extent of it. Otherwise, names are interchangeable to me.
> 
> Those two drivers just happen to be two of the highest-performance 8" midbass/subwoofers out there at any price right now, and they're cheap. If Brand N comes out with a woofer that outperforms either of those at the same cost, or performs equally well at a significantly lower cost, the Brand N woofer would've been my point of reference.
> 
> My point is, you could've come back by saying something like, "well, ours have x% more xmax. As you can see from this Klippel graph of BL-x." Or, "ours have lower inductance and lower inductance variation over excursion, as you can see here" Or "ours extend higher before breakup, as you can see from this graph."
> 
> I was giving you a chance to say why one should give your product the time of day, and you took it as an attack. Why are you so damn defensive, Grizz?
> 
> And it's Tro, not Tr[e]o. It's the name of a driver that I believe was first OEM'ed for BG Radia and later sold to the hobbyist market by Creative Sound Solutions. Seems like the best value in 8" midbass/woofers right now, though Harman also has one that's quite good sold under their JBL and Infinity lines.
> 
> 
> 
> Why was "PeePI" considered offensive, but my other attempts to avoid the repugnant new auto-link crap (PPeeI, PPEye) were presumably not? Take a deep breath, man.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not a question one can reasonably answer. The only thing posited is the name. Everything important is left unstated: what size, what features, what power, what appearance, and of course what price. Amps are commodity parts that all sound the same, so the goodwill premium any firm should expect to attract from their brand name will be slight at best. Today, the going MSRP for a modern 125-150W x 4 amp is probably around $500-600, with a street price of considerably less. (For instance, a Kenwood_ XR-4S refurb at Crutchfield right now is $250. That's an excellent amp: powerful, compact, and sounds the same as any other competently-designed amp.)
> 
> That said, an Art amp that was of useful power, small size, and competitive price would certainly attract my attention. I think it's fair to say that I have bought two modern echt-PPI (that is to say, amps designed by the people who designed the real stuff, and produced under their supervision) amps in 2010: Jello HD600/4 and MHD900/5.
> (As well as other modern Class D amps from Eclipse_ and Kenwood_.)
> 
> 
> 
> And why would they? They're expensive and large, without offering any performance benefit over smaller and cheaper stuff. People want amps that are small and reasonably priced. And why not? Non-idiots realize that amps all sound the same, so there's no benefit to wasting extra space or spending more.
> 
> 
> 
> That is because such an amp would be a response to conditions that no longer exist (stupid competition rules of the day). But if you look at Zuki Audio, it's clear that at least some people are buying amps with farcical ratings today. (Their main amp is rated at 5W x 4. More that two DIYMAers have bought them.)
> 
> 
> 
> For someone claiming not to be in marketing (despite your job title), you're writing like a marketer. It's not about "brands," it's about performance and value for the money. Frankly, the only "brand" in car audio today that's worth any price premium at all just by virtue of the name is McIntosh. Everyone else only earns premiums by the quality of their product. A JBL MS-8 sold as a Pyle 8-box would still be worth what Andy & Co. charge for it, because it's of objectively high performance.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you have this strange marketeer's fixation on "high-end." Who cares? How about just make stuff that meets modern needs? Especially when we're talking about commodity parts such as audio amplifiers. And modern needs are smaller, lighter, more powerful, cooler, arguably more features. Anything else is trying to re-lose the battles of the 1990s that threw car-fi into a tailspin in the first place!
> 
> Perhaps you thinks there's money to be made in bucking modernity by marketing antiquated amplifiers and retrofuturistic speakers, thinking that there are people who are more interested in nostalgia than performance. You may in fact even be making the correct bet in the market, though I doubt it and have been complaining about the car-fi industry's stubborn refusal to offer modern amps since at least 2004.. But even if you are right in terms of sales, will a worship-the-antequated approach get informed, modern car-fi buyers interested in your products? Not really. But it might infuriate them because they're seeing marques from their youth that use to be run by people who were legitimately at the forefront recycled and used rather cynically. Just sayin'._


_

I will probably screw all of this up with getting quotes in the right places and so forth. but I will hit a few of your statements briefly...

First of all, yes, I am the marketing director, speaker engineer, amplifier preamp designer, product development manager, sponnsored teams manager, press/manuals/catalogs writer, international technical trainer, etc... And I do this for 6 brands! Not to sound harsh, but I would like to see anybody do all of this! I work 10-2 hours at day at the office, 2+ hours each evening at home, another 10-15 hours on the weekends and I travel alot. We tried to build PPI from the ground up in 1.5 years!! Sorry if I ampathetic and do not measure up to your standards. I am doing everything I can...

I do not have time for TV so I have no idea what that stuff was insinuating...

I will try to refrain from yielding garbage just for you, since you are the only person getting homicidal over all of this.

We replaced our old website guy in order to create a much better website that will be packed full of information. Again, sorry it was not done toyour standards or in your timeframe. Everybody else wanted something, so like most things in this world, it is a work in progress. Should we shut it down until you can approve everything? 

Thanx for the education on motor design. I assure you I have never seen one before and I got my job because I am too gorgeous to be without a job. Kind of weird that I get my job done, isn't it. You very easily could have given a simple answer to my question which asked your opinion. It was not necessary to write this whole email as an aggressive, mean-spirited person. I do not deserve this. So rather than discuss engineering with you any further, I think I would rather work with cordial people. I know, I know, you are probably a bigshot on the forum. You may have me kicked off if you like. I would be a shame for me not to correspond with other people, but I am pretty sure i will not correspond with you any further. As you now know, I am a busy man and do not have time to play the whole insulting game with you. 

In all honesty, I am not going to read the rest of your post. I can see that you know alot of stuff in general, and like to make statements that people will not understand,a nd like to be the ultimate guru. Hey man, I am not trying to take that away from you. You can have it. I am probably the moron you think I am because all I want to do is learn from people on here as to what they like and desire. I want to help when I get a bit of time. I do not like being insulted which is why I stayed away from the forums for several years. You could probably be a great asset to the forum, but your attitude ruins anything I would be interested in learning from you. Go ahead an unleash all your insults on me and my products. And be sure to brag about technologies and formulas that most people do not understand. Be sure to also compare car audio to home and pro audio with brands few people know. If everybody here is on your level, then I did not need to waste my time here. If they are not, then I wouldmuch rather correspond with them since everybody seems to be very cordial with the exception of 2 people so far..._


----------



## el_chupo_

Grizz, you are coming off as a whiny little girl. No offense, of course.

Let me try to clarify a bit. We (those of us that care, not the fan boys or your general car audio consumer) want to know more about your products. You claim shorting rings, and you claim you are the motor designer. Cool. Tell us specs, motor design used, reason for the use.

There are many well known and not so well known (outside of DIY audio sites and speaker builders) brands that are MUCH better than typical car audio drivers. If your product can compete then tell us how and why. 

And no, there is no way in hell I am paying you to provide the specs. If you want business then provide the info.


----------



## OSN

Grizz Archer said:


> In all honesty, I am not going to read the rest of your post. I can see that you know alot of stuff in general, and like to make statements that people will not understand,a nd like to be the ultimate guru. Hey man, I am not trying to take that away from you. You can have it. I am probably the moron you think I am because all I want to do is learn from people on here as to what they like and desire. I want to help when I get a bit of time. I do not like being insulted which is why I stayed away from the forums for several years. You could probably be a great asset to the forum, but your attitude ruins anything I would be interested in learning from you. Go ahead an unleash all your insults on me and my products. And be sure to brag about technologies and formulas that most people do not understand. Be sure to also compare car audio to home and pro audio with brands few people know. If everybody here is on your level, then I did not need to waste my time here. If they are not, then I wouldmuch rather correspond with them since everybody seems to be very cordial with the exception of 2 people so far...












So rather than discuss technology and provide insight into your products' superiority, you chose to expound hyperbole and sarcasm that completely dodges anything he's trying to say. Of course you can feel insulted, but he was actually responding to some of your challenges and asking serious questions. Answers that other forum members would like to know as well. So while you are so busy ignoring people's feedback on what they like and desire while pretending to be interested in what people like and desire, and assuming that no one understands what he's talking about, you are actually letting everyone know that you think we are all idiots. Some people value truth and objectivity, while other people avoid it. Which group would you rather build Epsilon around?


----------



## bassfromspace

el_chupo_ said:


> Grizz, you are coming off as a whiny little girl. No offense, of course.
> 
> Let me try to clarify a bit. We (those of us that care, not the fan boys or your general car audio consumer) want to know more about your products. You claim shorting rings, and you claim you are the motor designer. Cool. Tell us specs, motor design used, reason for the use.
> 
> There are many well known and not so well known (outside of DIY audio sites and speaker builders) brands that are MUCH better than typical car audio drivers. If your product can compete then tell us how and why.
> 
> And no, there is no way in hell I am paying you to provide the specs. If you want business then provide the info.


Excellent post! It sums up the thoughts of the detractors well.


----------



## 86mr2

Something new from this thread. DS-21 has been called a great many things over the years but homicidal is brand new. He does, however, continue to be the multi-quote champion and an inspiration to us all. Well, those of us who can read postings with whitespace.


----------



## 86mr2

Audio_Images said:


> good gravy....


*Excellent *gravy!!!


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> I will probably screw all of this up with getting quotes in the right places and so forth.


Nah, you did fine.



Grizz Archer said:


> since you are the only person getting homicidal over all of this.


You would be wise to refrain from using defamatory language against me. 



Grizz Archer said:


> We replaced our old website guy in order to create a much better website that will be packed full of information. Again, sorry it was not done toyour standards or in your timeframe.


Well, when it comes up and has actual information instead of vacuous propaganda on it, that will be a different story.
(Props for putting up the manuals for the echt-PPI gear, though. That was a thoughtful touch.)



Grizz Archer said:


> Everybody else wanted something, so like most things in this world, it is a work in progress. Should we shut it down until you can approve everything?


If you want to put my on your payroll as website content approver, I'll be happy to take the job, sure. My going rate is $650/hr. US dollars.



Grizz Archer said:


> You very easily could have given a simple answer to my question which asked your opinion.


Which question was that. I've answered the questions that were asked in detailed by plain language. You seem to be dodging and spinning and weaving. Unfortunately for anyone who employs such tactics, the average intelligence here is such that people see through it. 



Grizz Archer said:


> It was not necessary to write this whole email as an aggressive, mean-spirited person.


Allow me to assume for a moment that you failed to distinguish between my person (your ad hominem attacks) and the content of my post (fair game) because you're busy and not because you lack the intellectual capacity to distinguish between content and personality.

What, exactly, was "mean-spirited?" 

Is it "mean spirited" to expect actual support for claims made? 

Is it mean-spirited to express opinions regarding aesthetics?

Is it mean-spirited to point out obvious truths that are common knowledge to every non-idiot, such as the truth that audio amplifiers are commodity parts that all sound the same?



Grizz Archer said:


> like to make statements that people will not understand,


I'm puzzled. My sentence structure was clear, and my diction was not particularly complex. Anyone capable of reading on a 6th grade level or higher should be able to understand what I wrote.



Grizz Archer said:


> all I want to do is learn from people on here as to what they like and desire.


OK, then, here's a simple three-point plan that I'll give you for free:

1) Provide full and accurate specifications of your speakers, without potential customers having to supplicate to you to get them and certainly without charging people for them. 

2) Throw the antequated mid-1990s retreads under the bus (people who want "old school" stuff have craigslist, eBay, and pawn shops; that stuff is always going to be cheaper than new production) and set your engineers to work designing (or sourcing; there's no shame in using a good OEM's design) the best modern amps you can sell at reasonable cost. That means probably Class D, but definitely smaller and lighter than the competition, cool-running, and with good inboard crossovers and other processing (either analog or DSP based). For bonus points, pursue form-factors that others are not, such as longer and narrower, or thinner but wider/longer. (All of the current modern amps seem to more-or-less follow the proportions of the first ones, Alpine's PDX. Sure, the Jellos are a bit squater, and the Kenwoods a bit smaller all around. But same basic nearly square shape.) For example, an amp with a small footprint and a cooling system that is designed such that the amp should be mounted from the small end. (Like your Soundstream D-Towers, but more rationally sized; say 6" high by 3" wide by 9" deep for a 100x4.)

3) Develop a serious competitor the Alpine_ Audyssey (PXE-H650/PXE-H660) boxes and JBL MS-8. 



Grizz Archer said:


> Be sure to also compare car audio to home and pro audio with brands few people know.


I daresay that makers such as Peerless, Vifa, Seas, B&C, and so on are better-known here than any of your brands are.


----------



## WRX/Z28

DS-21 said:


> Any driver of similar piston size will be equally affected by those conditions, so yes.


Surely you can't be serious... 




DS-21 said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> With the right specs, yes. (Though sometimes I suppose adhesive failure could be an issue.)
> 
> Any driver of similar piston size will be equally affected by those conditions, so yes.


Really. Piston size is the only factor here? 



DS-21 said:


> Yeah, for $40 bucks he'll tell you if the motor and suspension on his $90 driver is worth a damn.



Maybe you misunderstood, from what I gathered, he was selling a sample for $39 to send in for klippel analysis. 



DS-21 said:


> As usual when discussing this sort of thing, you're wrong.


That would be your opinion...



DS-21 said:


> Your analogy is largely without merit (whereas my riff on it is meritorious) because *there has never been a controlled listening same/different listening evaluation showing any sonic difference between two nonbroken and competently designed amps.*


Nobody brought up amps. That's been beaten to death... Did you see something that I didn't write?



DS-21 said:


> BUT, in some limited cases I see your point. One shouldn't expect any difference between plain water heated on a stove to a given temperature and plain water heated in a microwave to the same temp. That is a valid analogy to the role of a car audio amplifier in a music reproduction system, whereas "cooking food" is not as there are way too many variables there.


Sure, but water would be like test tones. Music would be like, every other kind of food...





DS-21 said:


> Then there's induction cooktops, which seem to combine the best of both. (I've been told. I just use gas, though I'd consider induction in the future.)


Sorry, Tried to keep it simple for you. 




DS-21 said:


> Nope. A well-optimized independent suspension will be better at everything than a well-optimized cart axle. No need to "rethink" that one.


********! :laugh:


----------



## Daishi

Grizz Archer said:


> I will probably screw all of this up with getting quotes in the right places and so forth. but I will hit a few of your statements briefly...
> 
> First of all, yes, I am the marketing director, speaker engineer, amplifier preamp designer, product development manager, sponnsored teams manager, press/manuals/catalogs writer, international technical trainer, etc... And I do this for 6 brands! Not to sound harsh, but I would like to see anybody do all of this! I work 10-2 hours at day at the office, 2+ hours each evening at home, another 10-15 hours on the weekends and I travel alot. We tried to build PPI from the ground up in 1.5 years!! Sorry if I ampathetic and do not measure up to your standards. I am doing everything I can...
> 
> I do not have time for TV so I have no idea what that stuff was insinuating...
> 
> I will try to refrain from yielding garbage just for you, since you are the only person getting homicidal over all of this.
> 
> We replaced our old website guy in order to create a much better website that will be packed full of information. Again, sorry it was not done toyour standards or in your timeframe. Everybody else wanted something, so like most things in this world, it is a work in progress. Should we shut it down until you can approve everything?
> 
> Thanx for the education on motor design. I assure you I have never seen one before and I got my job because I am too gorgeous to be without a job. Kind of weird that I get my job done, isn't it. You very easily could have given a simple answer to my question which asked your opinion. It was not necessary to write this whole email as an aggressive, mean-spirited person. I do not deserve this. So rather than discuss engineering with you any further, I think I would rather work with cordial people. I know, I know, you are probably a bigshot on the forum. You may have me kicked off if you like. I would be a shame for me not to correspond with other people, but I am pretty sure i will not correspond with you any further. As you now know, I am a busy man and do not have time to play the whole insulting game with you.
> 
> In all honesty, I am not going to read the rest of your post. I can see that you know alot of stuff in general, and like to make statements that people will not understand,a nd like to be the ultimate guru. Hey man, I am not trying to take that away from you. You can have it. I am probably the moron you think I am because all I want to do is learn from people on here as to what they like and desire. I want to help when I get a bit of time. I do not like being insulted which is why I stayed away from the forums for several years. You could probably be a great asset to the forum, but your attitude ruins anything I would be interested in learning from you. Go ahead an unleash all your insults on me and my products. And be sure to brag about technologies and formulas that most people do not understand. Be sure to also compare car audio to home and pro audio with brands few people know. If everybody here is on your level, then I did not need to waste my time here. If they are not, then I wouldmuch rather correspond with them since everybody seems to be very cordial with the exception of 2 people so far...


So let me see if I understand your methodology. 

1) you make claims about your products but don't provide any specifications
2) you are questioned on the lack of specifications and are questioned on the type of tech used
3) you return volley by questioning those asking serious, well thought out questions by attempting to show them that they don't know much, if anything
4) when said individuals reply in a calm, well thought out manner by answering your questions and allegations you respond with "well, you're meany heads and I don't wanna talk to you anymore pppphhhhbbbbbbb!" on top of that you don't answer a single question about your tech or specs thereby reenforcing the initial comments that your company is all form and no function. 

So in summary instead of stepping up to the plate on questions from serious individuals who care about tech over marketing you not only fail to answer, you insult them and others like that and then tell them to not buy your products. 

Excellent marketing strategy!


----------



## capnxtreme

You truly amaze me WRX dude.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Really. Piston size is the only factor here?


WTF do you think determines beaming, then?


----------



## Daishi

The same thing that shows a cart axle is superior to IRS is my guess.


----------



## WRX/Z28

capnxtreme said:


> You truly amaze me WRX dude.
> 
> 
> 
> WTF do you think determines beaming, then?


Who TF said anything about beaming?


----------



## WRX/Z28

Daishi said:


> The same thing that shows a cart axle is superior to IRS is my guess.


Superior, no. A different animal capable of handling quite a bit more power, and in some uses, a better choice? yes.


----------



## WRX/Z28

Anyone else want to put words in my mouth?


----------



## DS-21

WRX/Z28 said:


> Who TF said anything about beaming?


Um...



WRX/Z28 said:


> And then with this information can predict how they will perform in any given vehicle? on axis, or 10-20-30-90 degrees off axis?


Izzat "putting words in your mouth?"


----------



## WRX/Z28

DS-21 said:


> Um...
> 
> 
> 
> Izzat "putting words in your mouth?"


So you're telling me every driver of the same size will change dynamics off axis the same way? Cone shape, driver material, FR, none of this have any bearing? How about mounting flange?


----------



## DS-21

I don't know what changing "dynamics" means. Is that some kind of magic dust some marketer wants us to sprinkle on our speakers?

If you mean polar response, yes I absolutely do mean that the factor so dominant as to make others irrelevant is piston diameter. Cone shape, driver material, and so on are non-factors. And mounting flange? Really?

And if you think I'm wrong, prove it: find polars of two drivers with the same radiating area that don't fall off at the same rate (within appropriate tolerance for measurement technique, etc.) with increasing angle.


----------



## 86mr2

DS-21 said:


> You would be wise to refrain from using defamatory language against me.



Where _are _our manners here. We forgot the introductions.

Marketing/Engineering guy, meet real, honest to (juju of your choice) lawyer.


----------



## VP Electricity

WRX/Z28 said:


> So you're telling me every driver of the same size will change dynamics off axis the same way?


If you're talking off-axis attenuation relative to on-axis, yes. 

That is not to say that various speakers don't have various responses in that area. Some car speakers have tilted responses on axis so that their off-axis response is closer to flat. 

That's why so many "car" speakers sound like ass when mounted in KP, pointed at you. 

And it's why car speakers that sell, sound better in boards (usually on-axis, ear level) than in cars (ankle-level, off axis).


----------



## PPI-ART

DS-21 said:


> I don't know what changing "dynamics" means. Is that some kind of magic dust some marketer wants us to sprinkle on our speakers?
> 
> If you mean polar response, yes I absolutely do mean that the factor so dominant as to make others irrelevant is piston diameter. Cone shape, driver material, and so on are non-factors. And mounting flange? Really?
> 
> And if you think I'm wrong, prove it: find polars of two drivers with the same radiating area that don't fall off at the same rate (within appropriate tolerance for measurement technique, etc.) with increasing angle.


So what your saying is effectively that two different drivers with the same radiating area will achieve about the same polar response and diff axis.

Well I guess all drivers of about the same piston area are equal. Wrong

If your talking polar response we will go back to WRX first statement of IN ANY GIVEN VEHICLE. 

The polar response will be diff at same measured axis of the same identical drivers in diff. Vehicles.

So as to WRX first statement you are wrong DS. Don't come in afterward and start throwing in parameters after that fact to skew the answer your way.


----------



## DS-21

PPI-ART said:


> So what your saying is effectively that two different drivers with the same radiating area will achieve about the same polar response and diff axis.


Yes, the off-axis rolloff will be more or less the same. Now, the FR profile may be different, because the off-axis rolloff is tracking a different frequency response. That's why the better car drivers (the old-school KEF Audio UK KAR 160Q, for instance) are designed with rising on-axis response, so as to make the response at the intended reference angle flatter. (That's just restating what VP Electricity wrote a post or two ahead of mine.)

But every driver is going to behave according to the same laws of physics, and the off-axis response is going to track the on-axis response in the same way for any two equivalently-sized pistons.



PPI-ART said:


> Well I guess all drivers of about the same piston area are equal. Wrong


And obviously so. But no reasonable person could reach the conclusion that I've made the statement you're attributing to me here.



PPI-ART said:


> If your talking polar response we will go back to WRX first statement of IN ANY GIVEN VEHICLE.


The car is irrelevant to my statements. If you measure one driver of the same or similar piston diameter in both standard conditions and _in situ_, that same transfer function will apply to any other driver of the same or similar piston diameter mounted in the same location. The size of the room is irrelevant. It could be a smart ForTwo, or a living room, or the Musikverein. So yes, one needn't bother to "try it in your car" to see how it works. More than once, at least.

Perhaps it's a philosophical difference. On one side there are the "let's randomly throw **** together and see what sticks" people. On the other there are the "let's think this through and apply modern teachings in acoustics, measurement, etc. to our setup to the best of our abilities" people. I think it's fairly clear which is WR28 and which is me.



PPI-ART said:


> So as to WRX first statement you are wrong DS. Don't come in afterward and start throwing in parameters after that fact to skew the answer your way.


I like it when I'm wrong. That's how I learn things. But here, I'm not.


----------



## PPI-ART

Yes you are correct. Thank you for explaining it in that way. I was not trying to be confrontational. I stand corrected. I can admit when I'm wrong. Some people can't but I try to.


----------



## Audio_Images

Autiophile said:


> Ahem..
> 
> Dave?


When I went there nobody had much "topology experience" except maybe a couple of engineers that were not even car audio gurus themselves, it was all brand new experience to everyone. I was a contractor for Orion in the very start. All you really needed to know was how auidio worked and how to dry solder for the most part and follow a diagram that most could memorize after about 10. When Orion and RF and all the others in Tempe insourced to contractors, it was considered experience. Intel right down the road today is hiring board installers and you dont need anything for that. 

When I said that post, I was actually saying in sort of an excited tone that maybe we all helped create and evolve class D in disguise based on the ZED post on what makes a class D such. I was also a MECP installer. I left high school in 1989 to go do it when it first came out at CES that year. I am not current on the certification - but I know how to install. My mom never stepped in a culinary school, but she can out cook anyone almost. Car audio was not founded with degrees etc, it was built and kept alive by enthusiasts and die hards who loved making new things. Christ we even had an old Maytag dryer board converted in to a 20 watt mosfet amp. It was more of quid pro quo on the class D comments and question. No big deal. I am in no way a guru either. 

On a side note I cant believe how Grizz is being drug thru the mud now. We should be honored to have people like him on here. But I guess knowing from experience not everyone will agree huh?


----------



## mmiller

I agree^^^ Grizz is a great Guy.. and is very knowledgeable.

But this Forum has some Turds floating around unfortunately.


----------



## 86mr2

Audio_Images said:


> dry solder


You were making thick-film hybrids?


----------



## 89grand

I've been in the circuit board industry for about 22 years. I'm a SMT Process Engineer and have never heard of such a thing as "dry solder". The old school amps were all though hole. They would have been populated with components (resistors, capacitors, diodes, etc) via an auto insertion machine that was programed by an Engineer for the X,Y coordinates and clinch specs. They would have been soldered through a traditional wave solder process and there was probably a small amount of hand solder components, the output transistors and probably the transformers which would have been soldered with a soldering iron, liquid flux and wire solder.

I was even the Production Manager for a contract manufacturer that used to build some Orion boards quite a few years back.


----------



## 86mr2

89grand said:


> I've been in the circuit board industry for about 22 years.


30 years here. When I started out we had an "automatic line" (the company's term, not mine) consisting of a drag chain pulling pcb's past human beings with bins of preformed through-hole parts in front of them. Then a wavesolder machine and straight into the Freon vapour degreaser. The touch up operators and second assemblers even had Freon in their pump bottles to clean the flux off. Damn, I miss Freon. Ah, the good old days.


----------



## Audio_Images

OK before you take this and run too we did Jfets and mosfets... IC double sided epoxy boards. Dry solder/cold solder etc. all same. Just meant using injection soldering. I forgot I had to use a glossary of terms with some... enh, dep etc. dont make another issue over this please. 

I said I am not a guru, pr part of any geek squads. They had very little auto insertion that is what the contractors did. A few people built each amp by hand. Automation was not until later and even then it was seldom. Maybe I should have just said I was an assembler when I started. 

And to 89grand, then you know about how the contractors worked. I dont know when you supposedly were a manager, but it must not have been way back when because there were no lines of automation etc. It wasn't IBM. Freon was not allowed either in the rooms.


----------



## 86mr2

Audio_Images said:


> Maybe I should have just said I was an assembler when I started.


Meh, we figured that out some time ago.



Audio_Images said:


> I dont know when you *supposedly *were a manager


The irony in that passage is just sublime.


I just hope you are a more knowledgeable paramedic.


----------



## 89grand

86mr2 said:


> 30 years here. When I started out we had an "automatic line" (the company's term, not mine) consisting of a drag chain pulling pcb's past human beings with bins of preformed through-hole parts in front of them. Then a wavesolder machine and straight into the Freon vapour degreaser. The touch up operators and second assemblers even had Freon in their pump bottles to clean the flux off. Damn, I miss Freon. Ah, the good old days.


Yeah, we used to have freon back at Honeywell, where I first started my career and I had a pump bottle of it, and we had big tanks with a spray wand. That stuff was everywhere, they didn't even control it.


----------



## 89grand

Audio_Images said:


> OK before you take this and run too we did Jfets and mosfets... *IC double sided epoxy boards*.* Dry solder/cold solder etc. all same*. Just meant using *injection soldering*. I forgot I had to use a glossary of terms with some... *enh, dep etc*. dont make another issue over this please.
> 
> I said I am not a guru, pr part of any geek squads. They had very little auto insertion that is what the contractors did. A few people built each amp by hand. Automation was not until later and even then it was seldom. Maybe I should have just said I was an assembler when I started.
> 
> And to 89grand, then you know about how the contractors worked. I dont know when you supposedly were a manager, but it must not have been way back when because there were no lines of automation etc. It wasn't IBM. Freon was not allowed either in the rooms.


Your terms are so completely incorrect, that you can't expect people that actually know the correct terms to be able to even understand what you are trying to say. I bolded what makes no sense to me. I mean WTF is cold/dry solder? The **** is hot, it has to get to at least 183 degree C to melt, at least for standard Sn63/Pb37 solder as of course this was before lead free ****. Injection soldering? WTF is that? I mean I'm willing to have a discussion with you, but I don't know what you're talking about because if these were known processes in building circuits boards, I'd know what it meant.

I was not "supposedly" a Production Manager, I was, but I didn't say it was at Orion, I said I worked for a CM that did work for numerous companies, Orion was just one of them.


----------



## 86mr2

89grand said:


> That stuff was everywhere, they didn't even control it.


Ditto. I actually don't miss it. It was fast but brutal on hands. I'm pretty sure I've done enough arc welding over the years to have replaced any ozone I was involved in destroying.


----------



## Audio_Images

86mr2 said:


> I hope you are a more knowledgeable paramedic.


Whatever dude. Its obvious you like to stalk people too. Being a part time paramedic has nothing to do with what I did 20 years ago. Keep digging soon you will even know what color my **** was last night.


----------



## Audio_Images

89grand said:


> Your terms are so completely incorrect, that you can't expect people that actually know the correct terms to be able to even understand what you are trying to say. I bolded what makes no sense to me. I mean WTF is cold/dry solder? The **** is hot, it has to get to at least 183 degree C to melt, at least for standard Sn63/Pb37 solder as of course this was before lead free ****. Injection soldering? WTF is that? I mean I'm willing to have a discussion with you, but I don't know what you're talking about because if these were known processes in building circuits boards, I'd know what it meant.
> 
> I was not "supposedly" a Production Manager, I was, but I didn't say it was at Orion, I said I worked for a CM that did work for numerous companies, Orion was just one of them.


Fine. I dont want to get in to a discussion about soldering or whatever. Lets stay on topic. I am aware its hot, and obviously just saying I helped assemble boards isn't enough for you. I cant seem to get my point across without a fight or argument, its like it was in Jr. High again. Or was it known to you as middle school? Semantics are just BS.

Night Guys.


----------



## 89grand

Well, you're trying to tell us what you did at Orion, but the terms you are using are either made up, or you just don't know the proper terms. How on earth am I supposed to know what you're talking about?

It'd be like me trying to talk about the internals of a speaker, but not using voice coil, pole piece, cone, surround etc, but instead used terms like, cylinder, paper plate, metal thing, and then expecting you or anyone else to know what I actually mean, and then accusing you of starting **** with me because you didn't have the slightest idea what my improper terminology meant.


----------



## MiniVanMan

89grand said:


> Well, you're trying to tell us what you did at Orion, but the terms you are using are either made up, or you just don't know the proper terms. How on earth am I supposed to know what you're talking about?


This is a cold solder joint.

cold solder joint: Information from Answers.com


----------



## Luke352

I'm guessing he means Induction Soldering, it's probably also fair enough that he has forgotten the exact term since I'm taking from his posts that it's 15-20yrs since he last did that work.


----------



## WRX/Z28

DS-21 said:


> I don't know what changing "dynamics" means. Is that some kind of magic dust some marketer wants us to sprinkle on our speakers?
> 
> If you mean polar response, yes I absolutely do mean that the factor so dominant as to make others irrelevant is piston diameter. Cone shape, driver material, and so on are non-factors. And mounting flange? Really?
> 
> And if you think I'm wrong, prove it: find polars of two drivers with the same radiating area that don't fall off at the same rate (within appropriate tolerance for measurement technique, etc.) with increasing angle.


So let me get this straight. You are saying that a driver that measures one way will measure the same amount of roll off at exactly the same points when off axis as any other identically sized driver? FR will change identically? Cone shape, Phase plug, cone material... none have any bearing on this?


FWIW: dy·nam·ics   /daɪˈnæmɪks/ Show Spelled[dahy-nam-iks]
4. ( used with a plural verb ) variation and gradation in the volume of musical sound


----------



## chad

Audio_Images said:


> Whatever dude. Its obvious you like to stalk people too. Being a part time paramedic has nothing to do with what I did 20 years ago. Keep digging soon you will even know what color my **** was last night.


Green? From re-living the 80's and drinking Purple Passion?

That's soooo gonna fly over some people's heads.


----------



## 86mr2

Luke352 said:


> I'm guessing he means Induction Soldering


I _really _doubt it. I've seen the inside of PPI amps. The only relatively high-tech parts/processes inside are a couple of hybrid assemblies. Since those assemblies are not in cans there is really no obvious use for induction heating in any form. Induction heating is in no way "cold" anyway. But it _is _cool.


----------



## 89grand

MiniVanMan said:


> This is a cold solder joint.
> 
> cold solder joint: Information from Answers.com


Trust me, I know what a cold solder joint is, like I said, that's what I do for a living, but he used the term cold soldering as a technique to build a board. He said he did cold solder/dry solder and injection soldering, none of those are terms to describe the actual soldering of a board. Unless he was trying to say he didn't know how to solder, so he created nothing but cold solder joints.

You have 3 ways to solder a board, a wave solder machine and a soldering iron, both used for through hole which those amp were, and then you have solder paste with a reflow oven (either IR, which is old tech, or convection) which is used for SMT, well you could hand solder SMT and wave SMT too, if you used epoxy to hold the SMT parts on, and that's only used on double sided boards that contain through hole on the top side and typically there's only small SMT caps, resistors and such on the bottom. 

I'm positive he would not know what real cold solder was.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but I have no idea what he's talking about.


----------



## MiniVanMan

WRX/Z28 said:


> So let me get this straight. You are saying that a driver that measures one way will measure the same amount of roll off at exactly the same points when off axis as any other identically sized driver? FR will change identically? Cone shape, Phase plug, cone material... none have any bearing on this?


I know this is rocking your world, but again, two pistons of exactly the same size will roll off at the same point. 

You're trying to find some way to debunk us and prove us wrong, so you're throwing out random components of a speaker that don't affect this. I don't care if the cone is made out of a rock, if it has a radiating surface of 140 cm2 (typical 7" driver), then every other driver that has a radiating surface area of 140 cm2 will roll off at the same time. Just accept it.

Phase plugs? What does a phase plug do? 

Frequency response changes identically, yes. if, in your car, one 7" driver is 12 db down at 4000 hz due to off-axis response, then every 7" driver of the same radiating area will be 12 db down at 4000 hz. Now, if one is a CA18RNX and the other is a RS180 then the output at that point will be very different, as the CA18RNX has a rising response at 1khz that creates a 3db shelf until until it rolls off at 5khz, and the RS180 starts rolling off at 3khz. The difference in output at 4 khz between the two 11 db. However, both would still be 12db down at that point. I don't know how to make it any clearer.

This is why we laugh when we hear marketers use the "optimized for vehicle use" for their speakers, or members saying, "well you don't know how a particular speaker will perform in a car as opposed to a different speaker". 

The fact is the only thing we don't know is how the vehicle will affect audio output. This is a general statement that has NOTHING to do with the speaker used. Once we know how the vehicle behaves then we start picking speakers that may be better suited to a particular application.


----------



## imjustjason

89grand said:


> I'm not trying to be an ass, but I have no idea what he's talking about.


From his incoherent ramblings it's safe to say that he doesn't either.


----------



## MiniVanMan

89grand said:


> Trust me, I know what a cold solder joint is, like I said, that's what I do for a living, but he used the term cold soldering as a technique to build a board. He said he did cold solder/dry solder and injection soldering, none of those are terms to describe the actual soldering of a board. Unless he was trying to say he didn't know how to solder, so he created nothing but cold solder joints.
> 
> You have 3 ways to solder a board, a wave solder machine and a soldering iron, both used for through hole which those amp were, and then you have solder paste with a reflow oven (either IR, which is old tech, or convection) which is used for SMT, well you could hand solder SMT and wave SMT too, if you used epoxy to hold the SMT parts on, and that's only used on double sided boards that contain through hole on the top side and typically there's only small SMT caps, resistors and such on the bottom.
> 
> I'm positive he would not know what real cold solder was.
> 
> I'm not trying to be an ass, but I have no idea what he's talking about.


I was just being an ass. Maybe he was talking about those cold heat soldering irons. HowStuffWorks "How Cold Heat Works"

I'd love to see how he's going to heat and flow a mosfet let though with one of those.

I don't know. We know he's full of it, I'm just trying to figure out what terms he learned on the internet, late night TV and/or just made up.


----------



## chad

LOL HowStuff*Works* and cold heat soldering irons in the same webpage.

The internet version of the oxymoron.


----------



## 89grand

MiniVanMan said:


> I was just being an ass. Maybe he was talking about those cold heat soldering irons. HowStuffWorks "How Cold Heat Works"
> 
> I'd love to see how he's going to heat and flow a mosfet let though with one of those.
> 
> I don't know. We know he's full of it, I'm just trying to figure out what terms he learned on the internet, late night TV and/or just made up.


Ok, I'm on the right page now.


----------



## PPI-ART

MiniVanMan said:


> I know this is rocking your world, but again, two pistons of exactly the same size will roll off at the same point.
> 
> You're trying to find some way to debunk us and prove us wrong, so you're throwing out random components of a speaker that don't affect this. I don't care if the cone is made out of a rock, if it has a radiating surface of 140 cm2 (typical 7" driver), then every other driver that has a radiating surface area of 140 cm2 will roll off at the same time. Just accept it.
> 
> Phase plugs? What does a phase plug do?
> 
> Frequency response changes identically, yes. if, in your car, one 7" driver is 12 db down at 4000 hz due to off-axis response, then every 7" driver of the same radiating area will be 12 db down at 4000 hz. Now, if one is a CA18RNX and the other is a RS180 then the output at that point will be very different, as the CA18RNX has a rising response at 1khz that creates a 3db shelf until until it rolls off at 5khz, and the RS180 starts rolling off at 3khz. The difference in output at 4 khz between the two 11 db. However, both would still be 12db down at that point. I don't know how to make it any clearer.
> 
> This is why we laugh when we hear marketers use the "optimized for vehicle use" for their speakers, or members saying, "well you don't know how a particular speaker will perform in a car as opposed to a different speaker".
> 
> The fact is the only thing we don't know is how the vehicle will affect audio output. This is a general statement that has NOTHING to do with the speaker used. Once we know how the vehicle behaves then we start picking speakers that may be better suited to a particular application.


Very nice explanation. Well put.


----------



## VP Electricity

MiniVanMan said:


> This is why we laugh when we hear marketers use the "optimized for vehicle use" for their speakers,


I don't laugh. I interpret this to mean that the speaker has a rising on-axis HF response for better results in typical off-axis use.


----------



## MiniVanMan

VP Electricity said:


> I don't laugh. I interpret this to mean that the speaker has a rising on-axis HF response for better results in typical off-axis use.


Fair enough, but at least admit you shake your head and audibly groan when you see that. 

It could mean a lot of things, and ultimately it has nothing to do with the driver being "car audio". A lot of home audio speakers do the same thing. Like I pointed out with the Seas CA18RNX with the 3 db shelf between 1khz and 5 khz. 

I'd much rather see this statement.

"Due to the typical off-axis alignment that is utilized in a vehicle, we have designed our speaker to have a rising response that combats this problem". If you are able to mount your speakers on-axis, then we suggest you check out our other product line xxxx for that application".

Rising response may help you in a car door, but will hinder you in kicks. Both are still installed in a car, making the statement "optimized for a vehicle" misleading.


----------



## VP Electricity

MiniVanMan said:


> Fair enough, but at least admit you shake your head and audibly groan when you see that.


No, I'm not as angry about it as you are. 

I used the word typical, and I stand by it. We're not talking 50-50 doors/kicks, or 60/40 - 90% plus of front speakers in cars made in the last decade are door mounted. To use terms as Andy W might for a moment, making a speaker that's optimized for 98% of use cases is pretty good. 

That is an acceptable feature in a $100 coaxial. 

When I was a product marketing manager for a car audio brand, I included this information that would make you happier. But you may remember a story I posted about coaxes, big red chain stores, and demo boards? I think that dynamic - it has to sound good in the board, regardless of the sound in the car, or it won't sell at all - has done more to produce poor-sounding speakers than what you're complaining about here. 

To get us back on track, at the time of it's introduction, the Art series had several aspects which were presented as benefits performance-wise. Seems like this thread has largely been about product graphics and magnet stickers.


----------



## Grizz Archer

pat_smith1969 said:


> Hey Grizz...
> I am not sure how much you are allowed to say but if you can, can you say what of your products you sell the most of? You mention that the Refs are not flying out the door but are your tarantula series doing better? how about your Rubicon series?
> 
> I ask because I am real curious and it would illustrate your points about price versus quality and who will pay for what.
> 
> I am one of those of which you speak. I looked at the Ref series, and even the Rubicon series and got all googlie-eyed over them. They were MUST have amps, and I found them to be real cheap (price not quality) for what they were.
> Sadly in the end I sold out. I went with some fairly well regarded Kenwood amps mostly because they had built in Time Alignment and cost less that $150 (refurbished, kenwood no longer makes them).
> 
> I still dream about the Refs and someday might upgrade. but when it came right down to it... I didn't put my money where my mouth was.


That is not secret information. Picasso is always a hot seller due to price. next up is the Rubicon which is decent, but does not sell as much at Picasso. Maybe because it is blue, maybe becuse they is not tarantula on it? Not really sure, but Personally I like it better than Picasso and Tarantula. just my opinion (I have custom white one and orange ones). Tarantula is hot as well and always will be. DTR is very misunderstood so it does not sell well. I use them in my Jeep and people who have tried them love them. Stealth does pretty well but the gumby that thinks bigger amps are better and more powerful will not buy these. The REFs are badass IMHO, but since the price is higher, they will not sell as well. Everybody had to have them as you can imagine, but nobody wants to spend any money. And of course thye Humam Reign is just insane, again very misunderstood. It will rival about anything and beat pretty much anything, but even at 1/2 the price at the opriginal with the very expensive heat sink, they do not sell well. Hope that answers your questions. But let me give you a bit of advice. Screw what other people think!!! Seriously, Buy what yopu want and what sounds good to you. Everbody asks me why I do not use all Human Reigns since I can load as many as I want into my vehicles for free. My answer? I donl;t need them. I need something with average efficiency - that eliminates Human Reign which is power hungry. I prefer sometyhing smaller, but without sacrificing performance. That leaves Stealth, D-Tower and Rubicon. So those are the 3 model I use in my vehicles... Limit your choices by selecting features and requirements that best suit you...

Hey man, we all make mistake. I used to play with Jet Sound, Majestic and other cheap brands decase ago while I taught my self how to blow things up! LOL


----------



## Audio_Images

89grand said:


> Trust me, I know what a cold solder joint is, like I said, that's what I do for a living, but he used the term cold soldering as a technique to build a board. He said he did cold solder/dry solder and injection soldering, none of those are terms to describe the actual soldering of a board. Unless he was trying to say he didn't know how to solder, so he created nothing but cold solder joints.
> 
> You have 3 ways to solder a board, a wave solder machine and a soldering iron, both used for through hole which those amp were, and then you have solder paste with a reflow oven (either IR, which is old tech, or convection) which is used for SMT, well you could hand solder SMT and wave SMT too, if you used epoxy to hold the SMT parts on, and that's only used on double sided boards that contain through hole on the top side and typically there's only small SMT caps, resistors and such on the bottom.
> 
> I'm positive he would not know what real cold solder was.
> 
> I'm not trying to be an ass, but I have no idea what he's talking about.


Then you know, stop being an ass about soldering. I know what I did and what we all did to assemble the boards. Just because you dont know the terms or I dont know what current terms are does not mean I dont know from 20 years ago. Do you have anything else to do besides try and start crap on here?


----------



## Grizz Archer

rommelrommel said:


> My apologies, I wasn't trying to be insulting. When you said "However, they are cheap if _*he*_ wants to buy one" I was assuming you had misunderstood the original request.
> 
> I'm sure if you have the parameters many people, myself included, would appreciate it being posted here. Yes, specs only show so much but objective measurements have long been the gospel on this forum.
> 
> I will also be frank and say I find a lot of your products interesting, this woofer, the SS Stealth amps, but Audio_Images/his son have put a bad taste in my mouth about anything from Epsilon. It seems that you two are friends and perhaps you have more insight on the matter than people who have only seen the events on this forum and CA, but the optics have not been great.


No apologies brutha! It's all good. I have a spreadsheet that has all specs and 6 boxes for the higher end brands, and 2 boxes for the lower end brands. I am not a computer genius, but if you want it to posty the entire thing on there for all brands, or just PPI sinc ethis was primarily a PPI thread, I will gladly send it to you. I personally do not have a Klippel because I would never really need it here.

One more thing. Do not let anything I say or Dave says affect your opinion on anything. I am like a machine, non-biased. I take pride in this becuse it is very rae and most people cannot do it... I am that obsessed with audio. I am not the best engineer out there. And I am too stupid to be an amplifier engineer. So I like alot of stuff. I met Dave on here just like the rest of you guys. I do not hink I have a long term friend on here at all actually. If you hate Dave, fine. If you hate me, or anybody else for that matter, you cannot let it affect your decisions. Do people hate Toyota because they were accountable and admitted thier mistake? No. If I hated everybody at RF does that mean their products sucks? Nope. Like I said to another guy - the only that matters is what you like. If all of you said that Kraco makes the best amp in the world and it has the best specs, I would still buy what I think is best.


----------



## Audio_Images

86mr2 said:


> I _really _doubt it. I've seen the inside of PPI amps. The only relatively high-tech parts/processes inside are a couple of hybrid assemblies. Since those assemblies are not in cans there is really no obvious use for induction heating in any form. Induction heating is in no way "cold" anyway. But it _is _cool.


Hybrids were staged enh mosfets. So you have not seen them all. There were also p stage mosfets and Jfet hybrids used. Christ its been too fkkn long I dont remember it all. I only did it for a few months before moving depts.


----------



## Audio_Images

Grizz Archer said:


> No apologies brutha! It's all good. I have a spreadsheet that has all specs and 6 boxes for the higher end brands, and 2 boxes for the lower end brands. I am not a computer genius, but if you want it to posty the entire thing on there for all brands, or just PPI sinc ethis was primarily a PPI thread, I will gladly send it to you. I personally do not have a Klippel because I would never really need it here.
> 
> One more thing. Do not let anything I say or Dave says affect your opinion on anything. I am like a machine, non-biased. I take pride in this becuse it is very rae and most people cannot do it... I am that obsessed with audio. I am not the best engineer out there. And I am too stupid to be an amplifier engineer. So I like alot of stuff. I met Dave on here just like the rest of you guys. I do not hink I have a long term friend on here at all actually. If you hate Dave, fine. If you hate me, or anybody else for that matter, you cannot let it affect your decisions. Do people hate Toyota because they were accountable and admitted thier mistake? No. If I hated everybody at RF does that mean their products sucks? Nope. Like I said to another guy - the only that matters is what you like. If all of you said that Kraco makes the best amp in the world and it has the best specs, I would still buy what I think is best.


True. Everyone has an opinion. I too am obsessed but I dont let others make my choices for me.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Audio_Images said:


> I will lol!
> 
> Also people need to know that not all large buyout companys are the same. DEI bought great names and look what they did with it. It had potential based of the rep it had before aquisition. Epsilon does not seem to be taking the same approach. Redoing the Art series is an exaple, trying to get them back to the original. They wont ever be originals, and that is what people need to understand for fair comparison. But they also need to know just because 2 names come from the same factory of brands, does not make them the same by far. P/A and PPI do not even come from the same origin country but come from same owner. This does not mean any or all are bad.


Back in the day, companies started going to Japan for lower cost. They got too expensive and I cannot think of anything that comes out of Japan except for the Japanese brands. Then it was Korea, then China, etc... IMHO, we go to China for alot and if you saw alot of the same brands coming off the same assembly line, you'd poop yourself and learn alot. (Not necessarily talking to you Dave, just everybody obviously). But I can honestly tell you that we could not find a factory in China to make a few of our high-end pieces for us. We had to go back to Korea which is more expensive but well worth it. The fact is that a badass Korean factory may make some killer stuff, way better than USA. In USA you pay stupid labor for non-skilled people. In Asia, you pay for state of the art insertions machine with individual part testing as they are inserted. Way more reliable. And the workers are trained to do one thing perfectly and thats all they do. Extremely disciplined. Anyway, I have seen Power Acoustik come down the same line as another brand's mid fi product. Oh the reality stories I could tell. The fact is that it is up the the engineer to make the proper board design. But the consumer controls the cost 100%... PPI and SS are totally different. PA, SPL and KOLE do infact have some similarities. I am not going to lie about it. Like or don't, I don't care. We have eachbrand for a specific reason. And for every one of you techy fanatics, there are 200 people that do not have your passion and will not spend the money for what you like. Hell, you guys won;t even spend the money for what you want! Me neither actually - I love my job... Gotta go - it's beer time!!!


----------



## rexroadj

Enjoy the beer Grizz! Thanks for still chiming into this F'd up excuse of a thread. Its a total cluster f*ck with all the views from the cheap seats! There is not a person in any company out there (on here) that is more approachable then Mr. Archer! Like it or not he is an honest, fair, and cool Human Being!


----------



## imjustjason

Grizz Archer said:


> One more thing. Do not let anything I say or Dave says affect your opinion on anything.


WAAAYYYY too late for that!!! Your boy has made such a mockery out of this new stuff that he's actually turned me off on all of the old Art's as well. I see one and think of dave... and that's the LAST thing I EVER want to think about. I sure as hell wouldn't want one... he may have worked on it.


----------



## 89grand

Audio_Images said:


> Then you know, stop being an ass about soldering. I know what I did and what we all did to assemble the boards. Just because you dont know the terms or I dont know what current terms are does not mean I dont know from 20 years ago. Do you have anything else to do besides try and start crap on here?



I'm being an ass about soldering because I fully understand it, and actually build circuit boards for a living and have for the last 22 years? You obviously don't have the first clue about it, yet claim to have built amplifiers, and I'm the ass? Sure thing, yeah whatever you say.

I guess that's one way to claim you know what you're talking about, by labeling someone that actually does as an ass. Go run and tell about this while you're at it, because I fail to see how I'm the one that is wrong...about anything on this subject.

Oh, I'll never touch anything with PPI's name on it, but not because of Grizz.


----------



## Audio_Images

Autiophile said:


> Grizz, this paragraph left me with a couple questions you might be able to answer. First, what dictated this rather strict timeframe for resurrecting PPI? Second, what is causing you to be so resource limited? By your own description you seem to handle nearly all the work for six brands. As a consumer that causes me concern in that it implies there isn't a strong and stable organization in place to stand behind the products, but rather a one man show (albeit an impressive one given the apparent work load).
> 
> I don't know Epsilon's business anymore than you would know mine, but it is striking to me that there aren't more people on this project to help you out. I can assure you that my first responsibility as a project owner in my field is to make sure we have the resources necessary for success in place from the onset (or as soon as the needs are clearly identified) be they financial, personnel, or otherwise. If you are not be in a position to make those decisions I certainly hope those who are see fit to direct some additional personnel your way.
> 
> None of us can be expert at everything and I don't think forcing you into such a role is a good thing for the brands. Obviously I'm speaking from a position of relative ignorance as to your professional qualifications, but your post makes it rather clear that you are strained/overextended, and to a consumer that does not inspire a feeling of confidence. Best of luck in your venture.


Well I guess you atleast are honest to not just blame someone else like 2 others are on here for it.


----------



## Audio_Images

89grand said:


> I'm being an ass about soldering because I fully understand it, and actually build circuit boards for a living and have for the last 22 years? You obviously don't have the first clue about it, yet claim to have built amplifiers, and I'm the ass? Sure thing, yeah whatever you say.
> 
> I guess that's one way to claim you know what you're talking about, by labeling someone that actually does as an ass. Go run and tell about this while you're at it, because I fail to see how I'm the one that is wrong...about anything on this subject.
> 
> Oh, I'll never touch anything with PPI's name on it, but not because of Grizz.


When I said about being an ass, I meant arguing cluttering a thread up again about something so stupid. Who cares anyways? Dont make it more dramatic than it has to be. And you and Jason dont have to buy anything PPI and you can blame me all you want just because of my involvment. You are the 2 out of how many thousands who will loose on out some nice products. Just like Grizz said before, if you dont want it dont get it - I really could careless.


----------



## Warren Young

Responding to the Grizz question on age.

I'm 62. Wish it wasn't so, but it is.
Carolyn is 56 and 11/12ths. She counts every day as a gift. As we all should.


----------



## 89grand

Audio_Images said:


> When I said about being an ass, I meant arguing cluttering a thread up again about something so stupid. Who cares anyways? Dont make it more dramatic than it has to be. And you and Jason dont have to buy anything PPI and you can blame me all you want just because of my involvment. You are the 2 out of how many thousands who will loose on out some nice products. Just like Grizz said before, if you dont want it dont get it - I really could careless.


A: You are the drama queen that continues to tell outrageously false stories and drag it on, I guess because you think you have a few people in your back pocket, you can start all the **** you want, then run and tell when people counter you, and B: Yes, you are absolutely the reason why I'll never touch a new "PPI" product. If Epsilon wants to align themselves with you, and it seems they do, that's all I need to know.


----------



## Grizz Archer

alachua said:


> Glad to see this discussion turn civil over the last few pages.
> 
> Grizz, you had mentioned debating between class A/B and D designs and the placement of the Art line in the hierarchy of the brand. I think you made a number of valid points, but my question is: why have multiple lines designed to appeal to different levels of consumer all using the same technology? You had mentioned staying true to the heritage of the Art Series, which is something I can understand. Why not then leverage the Power Class with newer technology? It seems this is your current strategy with the speakers, at least from what I can gather from the website.
> 
> I think this thread shows how difficult it is to design a product for a nameplate with so much history. On one hand, you have people who have a very emotional attachment to what _they_ feel the brand represented/represents. Any deviation from what they feel is 'right' for the brand is a tough sell, this is made even harder based upon the fact that the brand is under new ownership, versus the benefit of the doubt that a long term owner of the company may have in changing directions. If Eric from Image Dynamics came online tomorrow and said 'we are eliminating all our horns and introducing a new line of wide band drivers', people would be more willing to try the product with an opened mind, compared to a new parent company saying the same thing. On the other hand, you have people who are brand agnostic but are simply looking for something specific in a product, be it technology, cost, performance, size, etc...
> 
> I think bassfromspace and others hit on the other biggest difference now compared to the past, which is that the majority of us cannot walk into our local dealer and let your product speak for itself. Even if we have someone local to buy from, there is little guarantee that they will have the product set up to demo and an even slimmer chance that the demo will be in a setting that will allow us to really decide (I am guessing the Art SQ8 won't exactly knock my socks off in a 17'x12' listening room). This leaves us having to make educated guesses based upon specs, design, past performance of similar models and measurements.
> 
> My last question has to do with your online distribution. Your authorized online retailers are limited to selling your product at MAP, opposed to other lines they may sell where they have more discretion in pricing. Also, since a person may shop different brands on different sites, are you concerned that this may cause the casual shopper to have a negative value impression of your lines compared to its direct competitors in the market?
> 
> Oh, and since this seems to be the '...and get off my lawn' support thread, I'm just a month over thirty. :laugh:


Wow! One of the best post yet with vey valid questions...

There will always be a fight of what should be higher in the line, Art or Power Class. Who am I to answer that. Either way I choose, we would please some people and offend some people, not to mention the Pro Mos fanatics. With Art being older, I knew I wanted it Class A/B so I sold the company on this. But what if we made PC series fullrange Class D. Undoubtedly some people would be very upset. It sound like you suport new technology, as do it. But at the same time, many people do not. The fact is that many of us base our impressions off of cosmetics. Ever look at a modern high qualtity full range Class D or even a Class A/B smt board. BORING! They are not gorgeous like the old Phoenis Gold MS boards where you can see what you are buying. Pretty ugly in fact. So to be 100% honest, I am scared of People's impressions overrulling the opportunity to audition. Seriously! If we made PC a D amp, or an SMT amp, I honestly think we wouldlose sales due to the presumption that less big parts = lower quality. Sound like you would know the difference. But you cannot support our whole company in sales.  Again the argument comes whether one can hear the difference, BUT WE'LL NOT GO THERE AGAIN!!! Please understand that I am NOT am amp engineer. Way to stupid for that. But I can however designthe preamp stage and, notto sound cocky, but I thinkI did a pretty darm good job. There is not a practical xoer application that cannot be done on a 4 channel, or pair of 2 channels, that cannot be done with my HPF, LPF, BPF, SSF offerings. Does it make it the best amp ever? Doesn't matter. Sound is very subjective. But it is badass. You mentioned that Eric coulod lauch something unique and it would be accepted but since we are new owners to PPI, it may not. Fair enough. This is exactly why I wanted to take the SAFE route for now. Once people realize this is not not Soundstream, Power Acoustik, or anything from the pastm and brand new, they will decide whether they like the product or not. Once we are "cool" with the skeptics, I just might have the opprtunityto get a little "crazier". Stay tuned buddy...

You also mentioned the speakers. The fact is that I was prototyping the 3-way power class components awhile ago, but they were slated for Soundstream. Why am I telkling you all of this when most manufacturers would not? Because I have no secrets. I am an open book and some of you already know this... Anyway, imagine trying to build a whole new line in 1.5 years. PSYCHO! So I had to take my offering that were slated for SS and put them into PPI. Funny but true. Her is where I think we screwed up. Lots of guys have the foolish impression that systems work better if they are all the same brand, and even the same series. You guys have no idea what the ART series will look like, but I can tell you this, the 3-way components should have been in the Art Series, IMHO. I may be nutz, but after many years in Europe for research and home audio studying, I get off on Black and Copper. It took painstaking measure to get my company to let me even do a 3-way set and an 8" sub. I whined like a little girl for 2 years! But I got my way. Now, there are very few people that can honestly say that they do not look gorgeous. Whether they like the sound or not, is again, subjective. In fact, everybody likes the black and copper so much, that I want to slowly make that the new theme. Hint - invitation to tell me what you all think, but PLEASE do it in a private message, not on the thread. I can;t keep up with you guys as it is...  One more quick thing that you mentioned about wide badn drivers. Sorry but I have to tell you this since you brought it up. The 2.5" in the 3-way components is the magic... Super shallow, response from 180Hz to 12kHz and as much excursion as the 6.5". But the xovers are at 40Hz and 4kHz. No BS extra swirtches and crap either. Raw and pure... Anyway, I am not a salesperson, but I am proud of that little freak driver.

OK, next... Your are right, you will never be impressed unless you hear the product in a proper environment. This goes for any product on the market. So how do I fix this? I can't. But with 92 people on Team Soundstream, I am starting to focus on Team PPI. Why? Who better knows how to set up an SQ car that can show off the products than a competitor? I am not expecting miracles overnight. But think about this. Soundstream was trashed, BADLY. We brought it back over time. PPI was not trashed nearly as bad. It will take time, but the 7 momth success of the line so far is way beyond what I thought it would be. It will be a long road to get it where we all want.

Finally, the internet. The F'd up internet.I will be the first to admit that I shop online. But I have lerarned, with my bad Irish luck, thatif I do not get a warranty, I need it, If I buy a special warranty, it was a waste of money. There are 2 main online retailers, both our clients. They do not care for each other. One gets SS and the other gets PPI. As soon as one break MAP, the other gets both. Simple, ruthless truth. I love it! If either one of these places sells everything way below MAP, but keeps our productr at MAP, I an fine with the loss of sales. For example... You buy a Porsche for $60k. You see it everywhere for $58k - $62K. You got an average deal. But some whore sells it for $40k. What happens? You and everbody that is not their customer is pissed off. What is the value of your car now. Same with housing. Same with audio. eBay and the internet ruined the audio industry a it was when I was a kid. We did not have shops carrying 5-15 brand with zero loyalty. We paid premium price. Always. We are attempting to keep PPI a valuable line with high profit margin for our retailers. Any idea what you make on an Asian radio these days? 5%-10%. We Strive for 40%-60%+ and our guys get it. The nice thing is that while we want PPI to be very successful, we make plenty of money of the other brands. We do not need to whore it out. If we protect it, PPI users will love it, dealers will crave it , and it will be very prosperous to our company.

Not sure if that answered your questions, but I tried. By now some of are probably thinking "this guy is nuts!" Well, maybe, but I am a straight shooter, like it or not. 

Great questions bro!


----------



## Grizz Archer

jlohrenz said:


> This has been an interesting thread which I hope more so pertains to the amps than anything else. I just invested in the PPI PC3.65C and PC2.65C components for my new setup!


Please do me a favor and let me know what youy think, I very much value the opinions of others, especially an enthusat that is on this forum. PPI is so new that this thread was bound to go in a bazillion directions. You got a question, I can give you an answer. If I do not know, I'll tell you so and get one for ya...


----------



## Grizz Archer

Audio_Images said:


> In another thread I noticed a link to Zed. I am curious now if the Art stuff was technically class D design as they said if the amps had PWM supplies which the latter Art did, but D was not completly released yet. Did we help start a class D build trend? I knew when I was installing the PWM supplies, they were awesome....
> 
> "Class D amplifiers are of the switching variety. Technically they are Pulse Width Modulated switching power supplies where the modulation is the audio signal." quoted from the ZED site. I am wondering how they now classify class D as amps with the PWM supplies... Infinity had "D" a tad later but... again pre H.I. ZED? I am wondering if they are class D but not called that as it was not called that till later? I wonder if they just capitalized on the PWM as D when the originals were A/B?? Thoughts?


Aw man, did you really go there Dave? Damn good question. PWM is everywhere these days. Ya know what, I am so far behind in cathing up on the forumm tthat I need to move on. But I wrote a cool article for a magazine abiout Class D back in my MTX days in the mid 90s. I think it is on our website. If not I can send it out or you can find it on teamrocs.com. I have sie updated it because things have changes over the last 15 years. 

But to your point. I have had people say they hope the new ART is very compact and fullrange Class D. Others say they want it like it was in the 90s - NOT GONNA HAPPEN, and some donot care as long as it is current technology. I voted modern tech A/B and mid sized. We habve the ability to use a narrow chassis, but it will be about average. The design is primarily done. The boards have been done since the end of last year...


----------



## Grizz Archer

WRX/Z28 said:


> And then with this information can predict how they will perform in any given vehicle? on axis, or 10-20-30-90 degrees off axis? With any given amount of power, or amplifier clipping? in all temperature ranges? and after interacting with noise in the cabin, or other obstacles in the car?
> 
> Educated guess at best bud. That's all they can provide.
> 
> 
> 
> Grizz has said that he can provide spec's to those that need them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought it was pretty appropriate... Microwave's are newer technology. They heat more efficiently, but do they produce the same results as perceived by humans?
> 
> 
> 
> Some people prefer electric ranges, other's prefer gas. Gas heats more quickly, but electric heat's more evenly. To say one is unequivocally better than the other is silly.
> 
> What if stove A that's 12,000 btu's of thermal energy is compared on paper to stove B that's 16,000 btu's. Stove B is automatically better? What about for simmering tomato sauce? What if Stove B has hot spots? What if it can't keep a low enough flame going to simmer sauce without burning it? What if the house is drafty and the height of the burner of stove B subjects the flame to that draft causing uneven heating? The spec's may not cover every contingency.
> 
> Driver spec's are the same way. They are useful measurements, but to say they are absolute, or offer anything more than an educated guess is simply overstating their usefullness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Better on all surfaces? Really? Want to rethink that one a little?
> 
> To what power level? In what vehicle? in what type of racing?


Thanx


----------



## Grizz Archer

Yeah, for $40 bucks he'll tell you if the motor and suspension on his $90 driver is worth a damn. 

Really? That is what you have to say about me? Buddy, I do not know you. You obviously know some stuff. Again what are you trying to gain? Do you want us all to pitch in for a guru trophy? I do not care if you hate my product. In fact, due to your attitude, I prefer that you do. But what is your beef with me? Seriuously? You want me to leave the forum? Just say so! You bully attitude toward people is exactly why I hate forums. Please, for all fo us, relax and have some fun rather than ruining everybody else's. You may be an Einstein for all I know, but respect is worth far more than knowledge... 
I really think we could have a cordial conersation, if you are willing. Let me know when you're ready calm down...


----------



## Audio_Images

Grizz Archer said:


> Aw man, did you really go there Dave? Damn good question. PWM is everywhere these days. Ya know what, I am so far behind in cathing up on the forumm tthat I need to move on. But I wrote a cool article for a magazine abiout Class D back in my MTX days in the mid 90s. I think it is on our website. If not I can send it out or you can find it on teamrocs.com. I have sie updated it because things have changes over the last 15 years.
> 
> But to your point. I have had people say they hope the new ART is very compact and fullrange Class D. Others say they want it like it was in the 90s - NOT GONNA HAPPEN, and some donot care as long as it is current technology. I voted modern tech A/B and mid sized. We habve the ability to use a narrow chassis, but it will be about average. The design is primarily done. The boards have been done since the end of last year...


Yep. Was a different thread. But I knew they wouldnt be.


----------



## Grizz Archer

el_chupo_ said:


> Grizz, you are coming off as a whiny little girl. No offense, of course.
> 
> Let me try to clarify a bit. We (those of us that care, not the fan boys or your general car audio consumer) want to know more about your products. You claim shorting rings, and you claim you are the motor designer. Cool. Tell us specs, motor design used, reason for the use.
> 
> There are many well known and not so well known (outside of DIY audio sites and speaker builders) brands that are MUCH better than typical car audio drivers. If your product can compete then tell us how and why.
> 
> And no, there is no way in hell I am paying you to provide the specs. If you want business then provide the info.


Friend, you cannot offend me. I respect everybody's opinions. Wow, so now they are all coming out. I have offered to give the specs to anybody, but nobody has the balls to ask. Why is that? Why do you guys think that I am trying to ay that my product is better. Have you EVER heard me say that? NO, that is not whay I am here. I could care less is you bought something. I am herte for people who have questions. Unfoprtunately I work 70 hours a week, so I cannot spend my life on the forum. And who in their right mind would charge for specs? Good Lord! That is insane. Where do you guys come up with this stuff. 

Let me make something perfectly clear to you any everybody. I am hear to learn, answer questions about products, and do research with you guys. PERIOD. I have NEVER tried to pimp my products, insult other products, or do anything unprofessional.

So tell me now, am I out of line? Are my intentions crazy or not up to par? Whay all the insults from everybody?


----------



## chad

89grand said:


> A: You are the drama queen that continues to tell outrageously false stories and drag it on, I guess because you think you have a few people in your back pocket, you can start all the **** you want, then run and tell when people counter you, and B: Yes, you are absolutely the reason why I'll never touch a new "PPI" product. If Epsilon wants to align themselves with you, and it seems they do, that's all I need to know.


C: still poopin green from purpele passion


----------



## cubdenno

chad said:


> C: still poopin green from purpele passion


Ahhh Purple Passion and poopin green... I remember them days. Usually followed cruising in Paxton.

Well the Purple Passion was in Paxton and the poopin green was later that night/morning.


----------



## Grizz Archer

I'm done. I really wanted to learn and do reasearch with you all, but the crap that comes with the benefits overrules. I tried to be a gentleman and be helpful, but that did not work. I offered specs, but since nobody would give me an email address to email a spreadsheet to, I am the bad guy. I always remained unbiased and always will, but some people think I'm trying to say my product is "better", even though I would never do that. 15 years ago rec.audio.car got so bad that manufacturers all left due to attitudes. I have not seen another manufacturer on here. Now I know why. I am way to busy to spend my life defending myself on a forum. I did not read anything after page 32 or 33. My apologies if you had a resonable question; I did not mean to leave you hanging. But if you have a legit question, need specs or just want to shoot the poop, just give me a shout. Most of you guys were really cool and I appreciated corresponding with you. You how to find me if you need me. 

Hey Ant,

Sorry man, I tried, but apparently I am not wanted here. Now worries. If you need anything... Please cancel my membership.


----------



## chad

Grizz Archer said:


> Hey Ant,
> 
> Sorry man, I tried, but apparently I am not wanted here. Now worries. If you need anything... Please cancel my membership.


Were you invited?


Here's a hint, you and I have had EXCELLENT conversation, and I hope it continues.

You got ONE "numb nuts" barking things that make no sense everywhere in your presence, and it's not helping you at all.

I mean really? A guy that worked there in HS, and NOW we have NO IDEA who he is in the audio industry?

Do you know who I, Big Daddy, do you know who I am? In the audio industry?


No? 


Good.

That's the way I like it, but I can assure you I have made more people rock than any amp yo have ever made 

now let's shut the dip-****s down and talk about audio.


We are home.


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> Really? That is what you have to say about me?


You're the one who wrote that you'd send your Klippel report on the driver for $40 (maybe it was $35 or $39, whatever), not me.

Don't ***** about me if you're being dickish about releasing information.


----------



## roxj01

DS-21 said:


> You're the one who wrote that you'd send your Klippel report on the driver for $40 (maybe it was $35 or $39, whatever), not me.
> 
> Don't ***** about me if you're being dickish about releasing information.



I beleive he said he would send them the driver for that amount so it coud be tested Not the the specs


----------



## 89grand

Granted, some have put some heat on Grizz, but they were honest questions, but I can't believe he would not see what the real root of the problem is, but then again, the "management" here doesn't seem to either so....I'm at a loss for words.


----------



## rommelrommel

DS-21 said:


> You're the one who wrote that you'd send your Klippel report on the driver for $40 (maybe it was $35 or $39, whatever), not me.
> 
> Don't ***** about me if you're being dickish about releasing information.





roxj01 said:


> I beleive he said he would send them the driver for that amount so it coud be tested Not the the specs


Yeah, you're right. He didn't want to charge for it, and has offered a few times to give specs to someone so they can post them. He also offered a 89 MSRP driver up at 39 bucks for klippel testing if someone wanted to take him up on it to verify his numbers. 

I thought that was more than fair and was going to get the numbers and post them when I have the time ie not working evening shifts. All I do is work, sleep, and post a bit during down time 

If that 2.5 grizz mentioned is worth a damn I imagine it could be a big favorite around here.


----------



## Daishi

Is he incapable of posting them himself? Put the bloody specs up un this thread and call it a day.


----------



## sam3535

Grizz Archer said:


> 15 years ago rec.audio.car got so bad that manufacturers all left due to attitudes. I have not seen another manufacturer on here. Now I know why.


Manville - JL Audio
Pat - Zuki
Mark - H-Audio
Lambros (sp?) - Ultra
Eric - Image Dynamics
Andy W - JBL
Stephen - Zed
Jacob - Sundown

Just a few names off the top of my head and they have ALL been beat up a time or two for varying reasons over the years. That is not counting the SSA guys or other such vendors. 

This is still primarily a DIY (do it yourself) sight that looks for high value to cost ratio that assumes products will not have unneccessary "bling" so what you have been saying regarding your products is not a revelation to most members. Especially the ones that have been here a while.

Audio_*insert name here *was the downfall of your tenure on this forum, whether you realize it or not. Good luck with the new PeePeeEye and I mean that.


----------



## OSN

Audio_Images said:


> Just like Grizz said before, if you dont want it dont get it - *I really could careless*.


You could or could not?


----------



## Knobby Digital

Daishi said:


> Is he incapable of posting them himself? Put the bloody specs up un this thread and call it a day.


It doesn't appear to me that he's really trying peddle that thing here in this thread. But yeah, there's not been one mention to any aspect of its performance, just its no-nonsense cosmetics.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Daishi said:


> Is he incapable of posting them himself? Put the bloody specs up un this thread and call it a day.


Pretty much, I am not the best with computers and I do not know how everybody would want them. I cannot get the attachment to attach. It is an Excel spreadsheet. See, apparently I do need help, just as I offered a long time ago. Is everybody to terrified to give me an email address to send it to so they could upload it for me?


----------



## BigAl205

I PM'ed you my address


----------



## Grizz Archer

Look everybody, I am getting a bunch of PMs statint that Dave ruined my reputation and my companies reputation on this forum. I would have appreciated it if the issue you have with Dave are kept separate from me. I do not know Dave. Never met him. I have talked with him on this forum, just as I have with the rest of you. I was asked if he works for PPI. No, he not affiliated with our company in any way. Dave and I talked when I was looking for the original artwork for the art series amplifiers. That is it. There is alot going on out of the forum. I have talked with Carolyn and Warren ALOT over the last few days, morning through night. Their attorney is is the mix and we are very close to end of this whole scenario. I made a grave mistake in a statement that I made that was entirely inaccurate. I have been waiting to post my formal apology to Carolyn and the forum, but we need a bit more resolution prior to doing this. I did not do my research before I left to travel and have a bit of an issue with being too trusting. Dave has talked to Jeff Scoon. We will be able to move forward shortly.

In summation and in accordance with my last post...

I am not her to brag about product
I am not here to sell products (though I did offer to sell an 8" sub for evaluation for -60%)I am not here to raked over the coals for no reason and I will not put up with the childish primadonna know-it-alls (the rest of you were way cool to talk with)
I offered to email somebody specs because apparently, yes, I am too computer illiterate to attach an excel spreadsheet - still nobody has been willing to help. I tried but it will not work
I am here to answer questions about product
I am here to do research with you guy

If I am way out of line, which I doubt I am, then I do not belong here


----------



## VP Electricity

I don't understand what you're saying, Grizz. 

This is a public forum where people talk about car audio. You are a manager in a car audio company. 

You SHOULD be representing your product and your company - it's a great opportunity to do so without eating into your marketing or travel budgets, and it's what everyone expects of you. Hell, even if it's done in a brusque way, it's what many are ASKING of you. 

As a speaker engineer and a preamp designer and all that other stuff you've explained that you do at your job, people expect you to engage in conversation about what design decisions you make, and why. They want you to tell them why you made the product the way you did. 

You don't have to make everyone happy, and you can ignore people you don't want to engage with. But there are a good number of industry pro's who have represented their products pretty well on this forum, and Andy Wehmeyer from Harman is a great example. He took more crap for three years for a product that never shipped until last quarter (the MS-8), and he was pretty professional and calm about it the whole time. He also engaged in good explanations and conversations about why the product was what it was. Some people don't agree with everything he said, and some people don't like the end result product - but I think most would agree that he's represented Harman very well. Without his work, I am confident the initial MS-8 sales numbers would have been slow. He created the load-in, in my opinion. 

I suspect that some folks on here are holding your feet to the fire because you have positioned yourself as a speaker engineer, as an electrical engineer, as a marketing director - but you seem to be short on the specifics of the product. I think they are holding your feet to the fire because they think you've been full of it, basically. You haven't represented your company that well, in that you don't seem too professional as a speaker engineer nor as a product manager, and you don't seem to be explaining the decisions that have been made too well, and on top of that, you seem to have come to this forum expecting a bunch of teenagers who would hang on your every word and not challenge you. They aren't expecting you to be a "guru" - they are expecting you to have a command of why the product is what it is, and not something else. 

I wouldn't see the challenges as insults - I would see them as opportunities. If you communicate your product plan and motivations and justifications well, this sort of opportunity will earn your company respect and some sales. If you keep taking it personally, I don't think you'll accomplish that.


----------



## Grizz Archer

VP Electricity said:


> I don't understand what you're saying, Grizz.
> 
> This is a public forum where people talk about car audio. You are a manager in a car audio company.
> 
> You SHOULD be representing your product and your company - it's a great opportunity to do so without eating into your marketing or travel budgets, and it's what everyone expects of you. Hell, even if it's done in a brusque way, it's what many are ASKING of you.
> 
> As a speaker engineer and a preamp designer and all that other stuff you've explained that you do at your job, people expect you to engage in conversation about what design decisions you make, and why. They want you to tell them why you made the product the way you did.
> 
> You don't have to make everyone happy, and you can ignore people you don't want to engage with. But there are a good number of industry pro's who have represented their products pretty well on this forum, and Andy Wehmeyer from Harman is a great example. He took more crap for three years for a product that never shipped until last quarter (the MS-8), and he was pretty professional and calm about it the whole time. He also engaged in good explanations and conversations about why the product was what it was. Some people don't agree with everything he said, and some people don't like the end result product - but I think most would agree that he's represented Harman very well. Without his work, I am confident the initial MS-8 sales numbers would have been slow. He created the load-in, in my opinion.
> 
> I suspect that some folks on here are holding your feet to the fire because you have positioned yourself as a speaker engineer, as an electrical engineer, as a marketing director - but you seem to be short on the specifics of the product. I think they are holding your feet to the fire because they think you've been full of it, basically. You haven't represented your company that well, in that you don't seem too professional as a speaker engineer nor as a product manager, and you don't seem to be explaining the decisions that have been made too well, and on top of that, you seem to have come to this forum expecting a bunch of teenagers who would hang on your every word and not challenge you. They aren't expecting you to be a "guru" - they are expecting you to have a command of why the product is what it is, and not something else.
> 
> I wouldn't see the challenges as insults - I would see them as opportunities. If you communicate your product plan and motivations and justifications well, this sort of opportunity will earn your company respect and some sales. If you keep taking it personally, I don't think you'll accomplish that.


As far as specs, I sent them to 4 people so they should be up here shortly. As for details on the products, I do not mind talking about them as long as I donot come across as a sales guy to make converts out of you guys. NOT MY INTENTIONS. I never thought that this was a young crowd and the comment about teenagers hanging on my every word was just foolish man. I have said it many times now. I want to to research with you guys. Inexperienced little kids can offer me no useful insight. I was told I could find a smart group of guys on here. That is what I need. The challenges are not challenges at all unless they are intended to be. If somebody has a question, I will answer it to the best of my ability. It is a simple swap of word and information. It is the attitude that I can do without. (not yours) If I cannot enjoy conversing with people, then what is the point? I have a very limited amount of time that I amnot working so if it is fun and educational for me, I'd be all in! But if it is a meat grinder, I have alot more productive and enjoyable things to do... Am I out of line again or does this make sense?


----------



## VP Electricity

Time for our picnic...

YouTube - City Slickers VCR scene


----------



## AAAAAAA

Here it is.
Only the sub specs were provided though as we can tel from the title.


----------



## roxj01

AAAAAAA said:


> Here it is.
> Only the sub specs were provided though as we can tel from the title.


damn!!!! you beat me to it. im glad they are up so we can get back to actually tallking about the products.


----------



## Grizz Archer

AAAAAAA said:


> Here it is.
> Only the sub specs were provided though as we can tel from the title.


Yeah, that is a spreadsheet of all our drivers with T/S Parameters and generic box designs. Most of the drivers have 3 sealed and 3 vented designs, but the SPLX and XXX have 3 high-Fb and 3 low-Fb enclosures, al thought most get used in a wild variety of sizes... For the basic details and materials used, they are on the wesbite. But not everything. Like I said, they forgot to mentione the faraday ring on the A.8SQ. Last year I was moving and didnt work on the catalogs for a single second. And unfortunately, not one other person in our company knows the ins and outs of woofers. Likewise, if anybody has a video question, I am NOT the guy to ask. Sorry but I think video is boring... Any other questions I can answer. I do not have a Klippel here do I can not help with Klippel related questions, sorry.


----------



## Daishi

Grizz, good move on distancing yourself from Dave. He is a boil on this site and any connection with him is bad for your business

Thank you for posting up some specs. Hopefully we can get a discussion going on them.


----------



## 89grand

Unless I'm ready the model numbers wrong, I don't see any of the the PPI woofers on that spread sheet.


----------



## Grizz Archer

89grand said:


> Unless I'm ready the model numbers wrong, I don't see any of the the PPI woofers on that spread sheet.


There are tabs at the bottom of the spreadsheet, one for each of our brands.

No?!


----------



## 86mr2

Grizz Archer said:


> There are tabs at the bottom of the spreadsheet, one for each of our brands.
> 
> No?!


Yes there are. Grizz, just give it a couple of days and folks should calm down a tad.


----------



## 89grand

Grizz Archer said:


> There are tabs at the bottom of the spreadsheet, one for each of our brands.
> 
> No?!


Yeah you're right. I didn't catch that before.


----------



## DS-21

rommelrommel said:


> Yeah, you're right. He didn't want to charge for it, and has offered a few times to give specs to someone so they can post them. He also offered a 89 MSRP driver up at 39 bucks for klippel testing if someone wanted to take him up on it to verify his numbers.


That's not how his sentence actually read. See below: 



Grizz Archer said:


> I do not need another Klippel test. But I can totally respect your desire, so I can sell you one for $39 directly if you want. If my LMS parameters are sufficient, email me directly and I will send you the spreadsheet...


The clear antecedent of "one" in that sentence is "another Klippel test." "Another Klippel test" is reasonably interpreted as a report (either as data files, a fax, perhaps a mailed paper report) and not as "a driver for you to get tested on a Klippel." Furthermore, in context a report also makes the most sense, because the next sentence is about an LMS report offered for free.

However, you are probably right based on subsequent exchanges that your interpretation is what he meant to write, and that is a different situation altogether.

I can understand why someone might want a third-party test, and agree that such a test is preferable. However, it also seems to me that (unless proven otherwise) we should give manufacturers benefit of the doubt that they're not trying to put a snowjob on the few geeks like me who might care about things like Le-x curves. For example, when Manville posted Klippels of Jello's new midbass, I don't think anybody screamed "doctored!" Nor should they have. So if anything someone like Grizz posting that kind of data from tests he has already commissioned should result in greater goodwill all around. And possibly some sales, if the data show the driver to be equal or better value than another driver for a given application.


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> That's not how his sentence actually read. See below:
> 
> 
> 
> The clear antecedent of "one" in that sentence is "another Klippel test."
> 
> However, you are probably right based on subsequent exchanges that your interpretation is what he meant to write, and that is a different situation altogether.
> 
> I can understand why someone might want a third-party test, and agree that such a test is preferable. However, it also seems to me that (unless proven otherwise) we should give manufacturers' benefit of the doubt that they're not trying to put a snowjob on the few geeks like me who might care about things like Le-x curves. For example, when Manville posted Klippels of Jello's new midbass, I don't think anybody screamed "doctored!" Nor should they have. So if anything someone like Grizz posting that kind of data from tests he has already commissioned should result in greater goodwill all around. And possibly some sales, if the data show the driver to be equal or better value than another driver for a given application.


Fair enough. For the record, it would be insane for a manufacturer to sell specs. I am having a tought ime getting the websites updated fast enough. But I just ripped our website guy a new one, and said in want the specs on the websites ASAP. I do not send out alot of product for 3rd party testing for the benefit or bragging about results. I did send the PC.15, PC3.65c and a PC amplifier to Garry Springgay for testing in PAS magazine. It would be a waste to do that with a $89.9s 8" sub that is of limited application anyway. it is nothing special, just a good lil' sub in my opinion. I guess I am excited about it because we have not had an 8" sub in years and lots of people still like smaller subs, like myself...

You are indeed a tweakazoid and your input is valued, but seriously, it does not need to come in an offensive way. Cool?


----------



## Daishi

Jay wasnt being offensive. Abrupt and to the point yes. He writes like a lawyer because he is one and doesn't beat around the bush. 

You took it personally, which is understandable being he was discussing your products. With that said man up and grow a thicker skin


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> Fair enough. For the record, it would be insane for a manufacturer to sell specs.


Agreed, and your words offering to do such (even if you actually _intended_ to sell a driver, your words offered to sell a report) was the cause of my "attitude." (An offer to sell a Klippel report of a driver for 40USD is, I think you will agree, properly characterized as "dickish.")

You seem to have glossed over any positive comments that were also reactions to your words, such as "good to know, thanks" after you posted that the 8 has a shorting ring in the motor.



Grizz Archer said:


> But I just ripped our website guy a new one, and said in want the specs on the websites ASAP.


Excellent.



Grizz Archer said:


> I do not send out alot of product for 3rd party testing for the benefit or bragging about results. I did send the PC.15, PC3.65c and a PC amplifier to Garry Springgay for testing in PAS magazine. It would be a waste to do that with a $89.9s 8" sub that is of limited application anyway.


I think you're wrong about that. A good 8" woofer for car-fi is a surprisingly unfilled niche right now. Yet many cars now have factory 8" woofers, either in the doors or under the seats (e.g. BMW) or in little enclosures stuffed somewhere in the cabin or trunk. I think that a car-fi woofer explicitly marketed as a high-performance factory-enclosure replacement driver that offers higher performance with total stealth. Admittedly, to fit in all those different-shaped OEM enclosures the woofer would have to be quite shallow, and probably have to look more like an Aura NSF8 than an old-school woofer. (Though there are probably better and cheaper ways of getting a slim frame today. That Aura's been around for a while, and was IIRC the factory sub driver in the Ford GT with the McIntosh HU.)

True, such a product might piss off your dealers a bit, because then they'd lose the profits from box-building, etc., and lose some business because who needs to pay a dealer to unscrew one woofer and screw in another. But I think marketed right it could be a winning product. Just another free idea.


----------



## Grizz Archer

Daishi said:


> Jay wasnt being offensive. Abrupt and to the point yes. He writes like a lawyer because he is one and doesn't beat around the bush.
> 
> You took it personally, which is understandable being he was discussing your products. With that said man up and grow a thicker skin


It is not personal, He was not attacking me as a person. He even sent me a cool PM. If I am going to spend time here, I want to enjoy that time. I amnot singling him out. There are a bunch of people that feel they need to be harsh and rude to get their point across. I could just ignore those people, but I should not have to, because that will only bring up more problems. Being professional is not about knowledge only, it is about being cordial. Or maybe I am totally stupid and should not be here. We'll see I guess...


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> Agreed, and your words offering to do such (even if you actually _intended_ to sell a driver, your words offered to sell a report) was the cause of my "attitude." (An offer to sell a Klippel report of a driver for 40USD is, I think you will agree, properly characterized as "dickish.")
> 
> You seem to have glossed over any positive comments that were also reactions to your words, such as "good to know, thanks" after you posted that the 8 has a shorting ring in the motor.
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're wrong about that. A good 8" woofer for car-fi is a surprisingly unfilled niche right now. Yet many cars now have factory 8" woofers, either in the doors or under the seats (e.g. BMW) or in little enclosures stuffed somewhere in the cabin or trunk. I think that a car-fi woofer explicitly marketed as a high-performance factory-enclosure replacement driver that offers higher performance with total stealth. Admittedly, to fit in all those different-shaped OEM enclosures the woofer would have to be quite shallow, and probably have to look more like an Aura NSF8 than an old-school woofer. (Though there are probably better and cheaper ways of getting a slim frame today. That Aura's been around for a while.)
> 
> True, such a product might piss off your dealers a bit, because then they'd lose the profits from box-building, etc., and lose some business because who needs to pay a dealer to unscrew one woofer and screw in another. But I think marketed right it could be a winning product. Just another free idea.


OK, I need to learn how to do this multi-post copy thingy...

Dickish? Hell yeah it would! In my defense, you were the only person who took it wrong. 

I agree, 8" are coming back, big in the OEM arena. But this sub will not fit in most enclosures. It will however fit in rear decks. My wife's 2010 Mazda 3 does not have a factory sub because I di not want all the extra crap and the Bose system. But the location is there, so I removed and perforated the rear deck and installed the sub. (still have not finished the install though due to traveling)

Thanx for the free tip. :^) You'd be suprised how many people could fathom even attempting to actual pik up a tool. Regardless, some people are not willing to give up their trunk space. I promised my wife I would not modify her car, so all it is getting is a sub (for now - muahahaha)


----------



## MiniVanMan

Grizz Archer said:


> Or maybe I am totally stupid and should not be here. We'll see I guess...


Andy Wehmeyer (sp?) is doing well, Scott Buwalda is doing well. We've probably ran Scott through the ringers here more than anybody and he's still trucking along. My point being, is we are car audio enthusiasts. This site was founded on finding the best bang for the buck. That focus has changed over the years, but there's still a core here that is constantly looking for those diamonds in a rough, and are well educated in what makes a good product. 

That being said, I understand that this forum is a TINY voice in car audio, and you can't cater to a crowd like us. As a marketer, you have to not only provide a product, but a brand as well. Brands are what sells out there, not product. This is a point of contention many of us have here, and why this debate got so heated. The old PPI stirs emotions because it was a good product. Some have tried to perpetuate the "brand", but have failed in the subsequent years. Again, it's the difference between "brand" and "product". Intelligent consumers look for the "product" that suits them better. Uneducated consumers look for "brands". Unfortunately, I have to acquiesce the point that the typical yahoo walking into a car audio B&M probably falls into the latter group. People won't walk into a store because they see "we offer speakers with low inductance, high excursion capabilities". They walk in because they see a sign with a logo that belongs to a company that one of their friends bought, and that sub "pounds". 

So, we're not that naive here to not be able to make the distinction. In fact, we're so aware of it, we get really irritated when people come here trying to peddle a "brand" with no substance behind it. In fact, it's a really quick way to start a fight here. 

So, you're not in the wrong place at all. You're in the wrong line of work because what you're struggling with on a daily basis is the near impossible task of providing a high quality product that can compete price wise with an inferior product so that both smart, and idiotic consumers will buy it. 

We can give a lot insight into what the car audio industry needs. What we can't really do is tell you what the average car audio consumer would buy.

Speakers and amps are done to death. There are so many choices out there, and a good amount of them are good products. It's going to be hard to wedge a significant amount of the market away for yourself. 

What the car audio industry really needs? OEM integration. ROCK SOLID, user friendly, OEM integration. That's the new world of car audio. You're not only fighting for a piece of the pie, but you're fighting OEMs now as well.


----------



## Audio_Images

Daishi said:


> Grizz, good move on distancing yourself from Dave. He is a boil on this site and any connection with him is bad for your business
> 
> Thank you for posting up some specs. Hopefully we can get a discussion going on them.


Dude you dont even know me or anything about what we do together.


----------



## sam3535

Audio_Images said:


> Dude you dont even know me or anything about what we do together.


Apparently we do from Grizz's posts. You are not affiliated with Epsilon and he did not know you prior to meeting you on this forum. By the way, that is what he said; not my words but paraphrased.


----------



## Audio_Images

no apparently you took info wrong. Affliation does not mean I have to work for him.


----------



## 86mr2

Audio_Images said:


> Dude you dont even know me


Cheerfully no, but we _are _forming a general impression.


Audio_Images said:


> or anything about what we do together.


 - not that there is anything wrong with that!


----------



## Audio_Images

Then why not wait and see what happens. My intentions are only for the best for everyone. Once this is all settled you will all know.


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> Dickish? Hell yeah it would! In my defense, you were the only person who took it wrong.


I assume you mean, "read it as written." 



Grizz Archer said:


> I agree, 8" are coming back, big in the OEM arena. But this sub will not fit in most enclosures. It will however fit in rear decks.


I wasn't talking about this one, I was talking about the next one!

I think that's a smart two-tiered strategy: a simple-but-effective inexpensive woofer with a good motor higher Q for OEM infinity baffle locations (I assume that would be your Art 8, unless I'm a total moron - always possible - I didn't see a tab for PPI on the posted spreadsheet) and a more expensive, higher-tech looking one with a stronger motor (lower Qes) to drop into OEM sub boxes.



Grizz Archer said:


> Regardless, some people are not willing to give up their trunk space.


Honestly, I think that's _most_ people, including lots of people who frequent this forum. Hence the focus on small amps, drivers that fit OEM locations, etc. It's certainly me.

And I think Gary's - MiniVanMan's - post is spot on. Except that I would consider smaller amps (and maybe different amp form-factors) and speakers flexible enough to plug into OEM spots part of the broader "OEM integration" category. Maybe I'm reading him too narrowly, but my idea of such a system is an interface with the stock source with more power and finer control over the response curve, powering drivers with better nonlinear distortion properties than typical OEM drivers. I think that's where things are going at both the low end _and_ the more expensive end.



Audio_Images said:


> Dude you dont even know me or anything about what we do together.


Isn't that basically the line with which "your son" started his reign of idiocy on this forum?


----------



## sam3535

Audio_Images said:


> no apparently you took info wrong. Affliation does not mean I have to work for him.


In the most basic form of questioning:

A. Do you work for Episilon?
B. Do you work with Epsilon?

C. If yes to A above, what is your title and job description?
D. If yes to B above, what is your title and job description?

E. If no to A or B above, why are you still here?


----------



## 89grand

Audio_Images said:


> Dude you dont even know me or anything about what we do together.


----------



## rommelrommel

89grand said:


>


More like


----------



## JoeHemi57

Has anybody heard the Art series components?


----------



## Grizz Archer

MiniVanMan said:


> Andy Wehmeyer (sp?) is doing well, Scott Buwalda is doing well. We've probably ran Scott through the ringers here more than anybody and he's still trucking along. My point being, is we are car audio enthusiasts. This site was founded on finding the best bang for the buck. That focus has changed over the years, but there's still a core here that is constantly looking for those diamonds in a rough, and are well educated in what makes a good product.
> 
> That being said, I understand that this forum is a TINY voice in car audio, and you can't cater to a crowd like us. As a marketer, you have to not only provide a product, but a brand as well. Brands are what sells out there, not product. This is a point of contention many of us have here, and why this debate got so heated. The old PPI stirs emotions because it was a good product. Some have tried to perpetuate the "brand", but have failed in the subsequent years. Again, it's the difference between "brand" and "product". Intelligent consumers look for the "product" that suits them better. Uneducated consumers look for "brands". Unfortunately, I have to acquiesce the point that the typical yahoo walking into a car audio B&M probably falls into the latter group. People won't walk into a store because they see "we offer speakers with low inductance, high excursion capabilities". They walk in because they see a sign with a logo that belongs to a company that one of their friends bought, and that sub "pounds".
> 
> So, we're not that naive here to not be able to make the distinction. In fact, we're so aware of it, we get really irritated when people come here trying to peddle a "brand" with no substance behind it. In fact, it's a really quick way to start a fight here.
> 
> So, you're not in the wrong place at all. You're in the wrong line of work because what you're struggling with on a daily basis is the near impossible task of providing a high quality product that can compete price wise with an inferior product so that both smart, and idiotic consumers will buy it.
> 
> We can give a lot insight into what the car audio industry needs. What we can't really do is tell you what the average car audio consumer would buy.
> 
> Speakers and amps are done to death. There are so many choices out there, and a good amount of them are good products. It's going to be hard to wedge a significant amount of the market away for yourself.
> 
> What the car audio industry really needs? OEM integration. ROCK SOLID, user friendly, OEM integration. That's the new world of car audio. You're not only fighting for a piece of the pie, but you're fighting OEMs now as well.



I agree with you. But let it be know that I amnot trying to peddle a brand but only to answer questions. God knows there are plenty of good brands and poor brands. We just in the mix. 

Wrong line of work. Your point is well taken, but to make a product like you said is imposible, so we have to try to diverse. Some people hate that we have a bazillion series of amplifier and speakers in Soundstream, but we can hit most niche markets and the bulk market and dealers do not have to overlap with the line-up. It works for us. But when people ask which series best, it gets difficult to answer. Depends on the person I suppose...

Agreed, but who is the average consumer. It is different on the east coast vs. the vest coast and everything in between. That is why we have cheap lines like SPL and KOLE, mid line like Power Acoustik and upper scale lines like SS and PPI. For one brand to hit everything perfect is pretty damn difficult.

OEM... Man, you got that right. There are so many badass pieces, some cheesy pieces but not many in the middle. I came up with the concept for the piece we use for SS and PPI. Alot less expensive than the high end stuff, which we do not want to go after. But alot more options than a cheesy converter. 

As for PPI, we purchased it because we saw a great opportunity to make money, obvoiusly. The name was nearly as trashed as Soundstream was when Coleman destroyed it. You made the point yourself. Some people will go buy PPI because they either know the name or have used it before. And some people will buy it because they truly like the product. But as you said, if we tried to please just the educated people on a forum like this, we would destroy the line and not make any money. 

It will be a learning process like anything else...


----------



## Oliver

PASMAG | PERFORMANCE AUTO AND SOUND - Precision Power PC3.65C Components



> The all new PC3.65C 3-way component system has been over two years in the making, and is the brainchild of Grizz Archer, Precision Power’s Loudspeaker Engineer and Product and Marketing Director. The system is comprised of a 6.5” driver, a 2.5” midrange, and a 0.8” aluminum inverted dome tweeter, and a special crossover that can be used in either a 2-way or 3-way configuration with just the push of a button.
> 
> In the Details
> 
> The PC3.65C system incorporates some fairly unusual features for a mid priced set of components. All of the drivers employ fully encapsulated neodymium magnet motor assemblies, and high-tech materials and techniques abound.


Nice Grizz


----------



## AAAAAAA

The PPI 3 way, what are the xover points for it? Specifically, what range does the 2.5 inch play?


----------



## Oliver

Grizz Archer said:


> As for PPI, we purchased it because we saw a great opportunity to make money, obvoiusly. And some people will buy it because they truly like the product.


This is why *Carolyn's artwork *should be used, too !


----------



## AAAAAAA

> it has been cleverly designed with a ridiculous amount of excursion for such a tiny driver. In fact, this little midrange has similar excursion to a 4” driver,


So the 6inch has the same excursion as the 2.5 inch? All this comparisons really mean nothing hehe. How much excursion to they have?

From the post of some random user on the PASMAG review:


> It is great to see PPI still around and making high end audio gear. I find that high end companies have a tough time because they take so much time in creating great product only to be knocked-off and/or outdone by better marketing of total crap.
> 
> I used to have the PPI white Miami Vice style amps back in the early 1990s....ahh memories


We can see tat many are not aware of what has happened to PPI so the name still has some value.


----------



## Oliver

Audio_Images said:


> Then why not wait and see what happens. My intentions are only for the best for everyone. Once this is all settled you will all know.


Who is this "Everyone" you speak of ?

Is it Carolyn ?

Is it Grizz ?

... or is it *Dave*


----------



## tential

I can agree with the trunk space I need my car to be usable but I still want to be able to listen to good sounding music, especially when I have 4-5 hour car rides).


----------



## Daishi

Audio_Images said:


> Dude you dont even know me or anything about what we do together.


Did you fail reading comprehension or something? I quoted Grizz who said he has never had interaction with you until he talked to you on this board. If in fact he does know you he is being quite intelligent by lying through his teeth and saying he doesn't know you, because frankly, I wouldn't ever look at PPEYE if you are hooked up with them.


----------



## DS-21

a$$hole said:


> PASMAG | PERFORMANCE AUTO AND SOUND - Precision Power PC3.65C Components
> 
> Nice Grizz


Very, very interesting indeed.

Any more info about that 2.5" mid driver you can offer?


----------



## WRX/Z28

MiniVanMan said:


> I know this is rocking your world, but again, two pistons of exactly the same size will roll off at the same point.
> 
> You're trying to find some way to debunk us and prove us wrong, so you're throwing out random components of a speaker that don't affect this. I don't care if the cone is made out of a rock, if it has a radiating surface of 140 cm2 (typical 7" driver), then every other driver that has a radiating surface area of 140 cm2 will roll off at the same time. Just accept it.
> 
> Phase plugs? What does a phase plug do?
> 
> Frequency response changes identically, yes. if, in your car, one 7" driver is 12 db down at 4000 hz due to off-axis response, then every 7" driver of the same radiating area will be 12 db down at 4000 hz. Now, if one is a CA18RNX and the other is a RS180 then the output at that point will be very different, as the CA18RNX has a rising response at 1khz that creates a 3db shelf until until it rolls off at 5khz, and the RS180 starts rolling off at 3khz. The difference in output at 4 khz between the two 11 db. However, both would still be 12db down at that point. I don't know how to make it any clearer.
> 
> This is why we laugh when we hear marketers use the "optimized for vehicle use" for their speakers, or members saying, "well you don't know how a particular speaker will perform in a car as opposed to a different speaker".
> 
> The fact is the only thing we don't know is how the vehicle will affect audio output. This is a general statement that has NOTHING to do with the speaker used. Once we know how the vehicle behaves then we start picking speakers that may be better suited to a particular application.


Hey, Maybe i've just learned something. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this though. 
I'm really not trying to debunk anything. If this is scientific fact, I can't debunk it. I'd like to see where this has been proven. Quick searches are leading me to nothing from credible sources. Can someone point me to an article that explains this in more detail? 

I'd always thought a phase plug would have a significant impact on off axis response. Maybe i'm wrong again... but some illustrations and explanations such as the one below have given me that idea... 

Preference Phase Plug

I still stand by my statement that spec's only give you an "educated guess" as to the in car performance. 

I'm sure some of my favorite drivers may not show favorable spec's to you guys, so why is it that they sound excellent to me? 

If Grizz's 8" sounded fantastic in my car, should I just pull it out because you guys says it's old technology, or doesn't have an XBL^2 motor? 

I've got 0 experience with this particular woofer, but I don't follow how you can judge it based on spec's on paper. Especially since the same drivers can apparently spec different when measured multiple times. 

****, some of the older JBL woofers that you guys seem to pine after are far from the newest techology...

Fill me in here, seriously.


----------



## Audio_Images

a$$hole said:


> Who is this "Everyone" you speak of ?
> 
> Is it Carolyn ?
> 
> Is it Grizz ?
> 
> ... or is it *Dave*


All 3 as well as the members on this board, and the upcoming customers who are interested in the new line.


----------



## Audio_Images

Daishi said:


> Did you fail reading comprehension or something? I quoted Grizz who said he has never had interaction with you until he talked to you on this board. If in fact he does know you he is being quite intelligent by lying through his teeth and saying he doesn't know you, because frankly, I wouldn't ever look at PPEYE if you are hooked up with them.


Thats true we met on here. Who cares? And if you dont want PPI then dont buy it. What is discussed on this board has nothing to do with it, Grizz also said that. Opinions are like asses...everyone has one and they all stink.


----------



## Daishi

Again, reading comprehension is not your strength. You getting caught in lie after lie is not helping spread goodwill with the PPEye brand. Grizz has essentially disowned you in this thread due to your antics and it is still going over your head, way over.


----------



## 89grand

^^^^You're amazing, you just refuse to give it a rest. Give up already, geez!


----------



## rommelrommel

Audio_Images said:


> Opinions are like asses...everyone has one and they all stink.


You smooth talker you... I'm thinking of debuting a new product to North America, interested in doing a viral marketing campaign for me? :laugh:


----------



## Knobby Digital

sam3535 said:


> Apparently we do from Grizz's posts. You are not affiliated with Epsilon





Audio_Images said:


> no apparently you took info wrong. *Affliation does not mean I have to work for him.*


Took info wrong?



Grizz Archer said:


> I do not know Dave. Never met him. I have talked with him on this forum, just as I have with the rest of you. I was asked if he works for PPI. No, *he not affiliated with our company in any way*. Dave and I talked when I was looking for the original artwork for the art series amplifiers. That is it.


----------



## 89grand

Audio_Images said:


> Thats true we met on here. Who cares? And if you dont want PPI then dont buy it. What is discussed on this board has nothing to do with it, Grizz also said that. Opinions are like asses...everyone has one and they all stink.


True, but your opinion smells like it hasn't been wiped in months.:laugh:


----------



## bkjay

Hey Grizz.Can I buy the 2.5 alone and what is freq. is response of this driver?


----------



## MiniVanMan

DS-21 said:


> Very, very interesting indeed.
> 
> Any more info about that 2.5" mid driver you can offer?


Yes! Very nice. Who would have thunk it? A 3 way using a high excursion 6.5" "subwoofer", a 2.5" full range and a tweeter. 

I'd like more clarification on the crossover. When it says it can be used as a 2-way, does that mean between the midrange and tweeter? If so, that's awesome, and saves on active processing as many amps out there could actively cross over a full range to a woofer.


----------



## Warren Young

> Who cares? And if you dont want ppi then dont buy it.


Dave, why is you want me to call you?


----------



## VP Electricity

WRX/Z28 said:


> I still stand by my statement that spec's only give you an "educated guess" as to the in car performance.


That's good, although you seem to back off on it and then jump back on regularly 

Your link is to a website talking about phase plugs - the page says nothing about off axis respone, and the bad graphics seem to be about ON-axis. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> If Grizz's 8" sounded fantastic in my car, should I just pull it out because you guys says it's old technology, or doesn't have an XBL^2 motor?


You shouldn't do anything because someone else tells you to. But you might want to read about the philosophy of science a bit. 

You can't test ALL hypotheses. So you form a framework, you test it, and then you use it to guide you in deciding what to test in future. If you find a flaw in the framework, you keep refining it. That's really different, both philosophically and pragmatically, from throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing if it sticks. A lot of us did that in the 80's, and the newer methods and knowledge and technologies available just blow away the old days. 

If you have a speaker that uses only old tech, and it sounds great, and this is your hobby, you might want to know why. You also might want to know if a speaker can sound even better, and why. 

If I see a speaker driver that's supposed to be "old school" today, I know that the cost of making that driver is significantly less than in the 80's, and so I wonder where the money has gone, if not into new tech, tooling, licensing of patents, and R+D. They never seem to be less costly than in the 80's...


----------



## VP Electricity

MiniVanMan said:


> Yes! Very nice. Who would have thunk it? A 3 way using a high excursion 6.5" "subwoofer", a 2.5" full range and a tweeter.
> 
> I'd like more clarification on the crossover. When it says it can be used as a 2-way, does that mean between the midrange and tweeter? If so, that's awesome, and saves on active processing as many amps out there could actively cross over a full range to a woofer.


When the xover is in 2W mode, is the LP out of the circuit or just open?


----------



## Audio_Images

Daishi said:


> Again, reading comprehension is not your strength. You getting caught in lie after lie is not helping spread goodwill with the PPEye brand. Grizz has essentially disowned you in this thread due to your antics and it is still going over your head, way over.


I didnt lie about anything.


----------



## Audio_Images

Warren Young said:


> Dave, why is you want me to call you?


So that you are clear on my conversations with Mr Scoon and Grizz.


----------



## 2chGUY

Audio_Images said:


> I didnt lie about anything.


:lol:

:snacks:


----------



## DS-21

WRX/Z28 said:


> I'd always thought a phase plug would have a significant impact on off axis response. Maybe i'm wrong again... but some illustrations and explanations such as the one below have given me that idea...


It won't affect the relationship between on-axis and off-axis response that we're talking about here. However, there are some diffuser-type things that will. Like a phase plug on a compression driver, they are much larger in relation to the driver. (I'm not sure "phase plug" is at all a valid term for a pointy post positioned on the polepiece, but that's just me.)



WRX/Z28 said:


> I'm sure some of my favorite drivers may not show favorable spec's to you guys, so why is it that they sound excellent to me?


There are any number of possibilities, ranging from inexperience with really good stuff to not having an environment conducive to critical listening to simply preferring stuff that sounds like stuff you've heard before.

(I also can't help but note that you wrote "sounds excellent," as opposed to a formulation that would imply some sort of comparison, such as "equal to or better than.")



WRX/Z28 said:


> If Grizz's 8" sounded fantastic in my car, should I just pull it out because you guys says it's old technology, or doesn't have an XBL^2 motor?


The only reason you should pull it out under duress is if someone's holding a weapon to your person. Otherwise, presumably you'd only do it if you expected an upgrade. That's quite different from the duress scenario you laid out.

Furthermore, nobody ever said a driver needs an XBL^2 motor. Or underhung motor, Differential Drive, etc. Just look at the Klippel measurements of many of the B&C drivers in Voice Coil. They're "just" well-optimized overhung motors (with well-implemented shorting rings, pole geometry, gaps, etc.) and they measure very, very well. 

BUT, it's reasonable to expect that an expensive driver will be made to the utmost attention to detail, and that utmost attention to detail will be reflected in the measured performance. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> ****, some of the older JBL woofers that you guys seem to pine after are far from the newest techology...


Not really true. ScanSpeak's SD-1 motor is more-or-less a crib of the motors JBL's been using since the 1970s, but with smaller voicecoils. It's a reasonable rule of thumb to say that things JBL learned and applied in the 1970s and 1980s, the more advanced Scandinavian and Asian companies figured out in the past 5-10 years. Only quite recently have some of the Italian and German driver-makers (that is to say, B&C and BMS) consistently equalled or exceed the best JBL has done in terms of (readily available to hobbyists; JBL has some really trick stuff we can't get our hands on, too) drivers. (And JBL themselves recognize that, for instance using some BMS compression drivers instead of their own designs.)


----------



## AAAAAAA

MiniVanMan said:


> Yes! Very nice. Who would have thunk it? A 3 way using a high excursion 6.5" "subwoofer", a 2.5" full range and a tweeter.


Wait.. didn't grizz say the 2.5 had as much xmax as the 6.5? That would mean a limited excursion 6.5, hardly worthy of the sub title.

Also I just have to ask on a somewhat separate note, I got a few issues of pasmag and have read quite a few reviews on their website. Has anyone ever seen someone not like a product they reviewed?


----------



## WRX/Z28

VP Electricity said:


> That's good, although you seem to back off on it and then jump back on regularly


Where and when did I do this? 



VP Electricity said:


> Your link is to a website talking about phase plugs - the page says nothing about off axis respone, and the bad graphics seem to be about ON-axis.


It would seem to show the phase plug redirecting high frequency on axis... obviously sound doesn't travel like a beam of light though, so I follow where it would still have off axis response. I just thought it would be different from another driver that didn't have the plug. 





VP Electricity said:


> You shouldn't do anything because someone else tells you to. But you might want to read about the philosophy of science a bit.


I read every scientific article relating to audio that I can find. I wouldn't do anything because "someone else tells me to". The question was not to be taken seriously like that. 



VP Electricity said:


> You can't test ALL hypotheses. So you form a framework, you test it, and then you use it to guide you in deciding what to test in future. If you find a flaw in the framework, you keep refining it. That's really different, both philosophically and pragmatically, from throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing if it sticks. A lot of us did that in the 80's, and the newer methods and knowledge and technologies available just blow away the old days.


Despite both yours and DS-21's statements, noone is "throwing things against the wall and trying to make them stick". I've had 15 years of installation and tuning experience (god, I sound like AudioDave/images), over that time I've formed a framework for what I think works well. I'm constantly learning, so it's changed slightly through the years, and is still changing now. I've installed identical speakers into multiple different vehicles, and have yet to have one vehicle sound identical to another. I've also taken speakers that sounded terrible in one vehicle and installed them into a different vehicle and had them sound great. These somewhat flawed observations are my basis for beleiving it's impossible to predict results with any certainty. 



VP Electricity said:


> If you have a speaker that uses only old tech, and it sounds great, and this is your hobby, you might want to know why. You also might want to know if a speaker can sound even better, and why.


I have a good idea why (although i'm no speaker engineer), I was simply trying to make a point. It seemed that "old technology" was being said to be undeniably obsolete. I don't always find this to be the case. 



VP Electricity said:


> If I see a speaker driver that's supposed to be "old school" today, I know that the cost of making that driver is significantly less than in the 80's, and so I wonder where the money has gone, if not into new tech, tooling, licensing of patents, and R+D. They never seem to be less costly than in the 80's...


I'm sure some of it goes to the replacement of said items when people improperly use them, and the item fails. Some goes into marketing, which costs significantly more today. Some is simply inflation. I follow what you're getting at though...


In conclusion, I follow why we use measurements to predict results, i'm not arguing against that. It's certainly a better method that blindly throwing drivers into a car and expecting positive results. 

It just seemed that we were discounting and even attacking a speaker based on spec's or lack of spec's, and technology/lack of technology. 

Strangely enough, when the PAS article on the 3ways was linked, it was deemed "interesting", instead of immediately rubbish because the spec's weren't posted, and there's no shorting rings or xbl^2.


----------



## WRX/Z28

AAAAAAA said:


> Wait.. didn't grizz say the 2.5 had as much xmax as the 6.5? That would mean a limited excursion 6.5, hardly worthy of the sub title.
> 
> Also I just have to ask on a somewhat separate note, I got a few issues of pasmag and have read quite a few reviews on their website. Has anyone ever seen someone not like a product they reviewed?


I've never seen them outright bash any product, or deem it useless. I have seen them point out negatives though... and i've seen less glowing and less enthusiastic reviews...


----------



## MiniVanMan

AAAAAAA said:


> Wait.. didn't grizz say the 2.5 had as much xmax as the 6.5? That would mean a limited excursion 6.5, hardly worthy of the sub title.


That would be a very poorly designed system. While high excursion sounds great on a small widebander type driver, when only using one you run into issues of sensitivity. The more excursion you have, the less sensitivity you'll have, and since you have very little cone area, you start getting into the high 70's, very low 80's in sensitivity. Not a problem if you want to run line arrays. A problem if you want to use just one per side.

So, yeah, I'd like to see more info on the 2.5" driver.


----------



## DS-21

WRX/Z28 said:


> Strangely enough, when the PAS article on the 3ways was linked, it was deemed "interesting", instead of immediately rubbish because the spec's weren't posted, and there's no shorting rings or xbl^2.


It's an interesting configuration, with the small midrange, and something (so far as I can see) not otherwise on the market. The cosmetics aren't to my taste, but it's about time obvious things like small neo magnets to make installation easier were widespread.

Also, if the PPI Art 8 has shorting rings, this set probably does too.


----------



## alachua

So, has anyone taken Grizz up on his offer of the discounted 8" for testing? What about a small group throwing in a few bucks each?


----------



## bkjay

Grizz I must say at first glance I was not a fan,but the more I look at your top of like stuff the more I like it! Those 3ways look badass. If they sound as good as they look your gonna have allot of hi-end companies sweating. Good luck!


----------



## NRA4ever

Man I hope Phoenix Gold does come back. I have 2 ZX475ti amps from 2000 & 2001.Great sound & quality. I can have them rebuilt for $140 if they should go bad. My son put his jacket over one a few yrs ago & burned it up on a long road trip. You would think he could see the fan he covered. We need more good car audio companies building American made equipment.I like buying American made goods


----------



## jlohrenz

As posted in another thread I've got the PC3 and PC2 component sets and will be installing them later this week. I'll shoot some pics and post a review when I get done.

FYI the 2-way and 3-way use the same crossover. There is a switch to set the crossover in three-way or two-way mode.


----------



## el_chupo_

jlohrenz said:


> As posted in another thread I've got the PC3 and PC2 component sets and will be installing them later this week. I'll shoot some pics and post a review when I get done.
> 
> FYI the 2-way and 3-way use the same crossover. There is a switch to set the crossover in three-way or two-way mode.


what changes with the 3 way mode?

Have a WT3 to provide some basic specs on each driver?


----------



## jlohrenz

I'll shoot some pics tonight of the crossover and check the manual to see if the crossover points are listed.

Had to google WT3...nope don't have one. Still trying to figure out how I'm going to do that part anyway with my install as I'll need to tweak my DQXS once the install is all done.


----------



## Grizz Archer

a$$hole said:


> PASMAG | PERFORMANCE AUTO AND SOUND - Precision Power PC3.65C Components
> 
> 
> 
> Nice Grizz


Thanx


----------



## Grizz Archer

AAAAAAA said:


> The PPI 3 way, what are the xover points for it? Specifically, what range does the 2.5 inch play?


400Hz and 4kHz. The 2.5 can go a bit lower, but with lower power handling. In an active system, the higher the HPF on the 2.5", the better for power handling, but sometimes lower is better to keep the stage high...


----------



## Grizz Archer

a$$hole said:


> This is why *Carolyn's artwork *should be used, too !


10-4 and it will! But one questions Carolyn and I have now is do we want to do something new or modify the original... Top secret stuff! Stay tuned...


----------



## jlohrenz

From the manual:

in 2-way mode the crossover sends a 12dB highpass signal to the 20mm tweeter at 4kHz, and a 12dB lowpass signal to the 6.5" midbass driver at 4kHz.

In 3-way mode the crossover sends a 12dB highpass signal to the 20mm tweeter at 4kHz, a 400Hz highpass and 4kHz lowpass to the 2.5" midrange and a 400Hz lowpass to the 6.5" midbass driver.

They also used a PTC capacitor and a bulb to absorb excess power, and the crossover is easily switched from 2-way to 3-way mode with a switch.

On the crossover itself there are hookups based upon the configuration for two-way or three-way.


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> Very, very interesting indeed.
> 
> Any more info about that 2.5" mid driver you can offer?


I am not sure exactly what you want to know, but here is what I can tell you... I am a fan of having my midrange on the dash or in the a-pilars if it can be done correctly and the vehicle will allow me to massage them in properly. I chose a 2.5" size specifically for this reason. They are not right for everybody. I always had 6.5" in the doors and 4"/1" in the kickpanels. Always worked well, but getting a really high stage was sometimes challenging. True, Kickpanels do help to minimize pathlength differences, but with the procesing available today, I'd rather have a high stage. I do not give a crap what the passenger thinks on my music personally. I just want it right for me.

Anyway, I spend alot of time in Europe because my wife is German so we have alot of amily there. Additionally, I would go there for the big Sinsheim show. I would see car with brands that we know, but with products that are not available in the us. Weird. So I started studying them. I took this research and combined it with my research as a home audio hobbyist. Voila! I knew I wanted something that would fit on the dash or in a a-pilar. I knew I wanted all neo motors for strength and somewhat shallow mounting depths. I like injection molded baskets. I chose an aluminum cone, duscap and former for rigidity and cooling properties. And of course a rubber surround. The first prototypes were tested in a Soundstream SQ car. To get the stage as high as possible, we dropped the HPF to about 180Hz ish, but lost a couple of drivers in the process. The driver can play effortlessly up to about 12kHz, so there is no cone break-up at the xover frequency.

Not sure what else to say about it. It was just a different approach that I wanted to try. It worked well so we brought it to market. We did put a production set in a PPI SQ vehicle at SBN. With less than 20 minutes to tune the car, it was being judged in our booth. The car took 2nd and beat long time rivals. We entered it sure that it would not place, but just wanted the criticism. The right midbass was left 12dB down across the board while tuning and never turned back up, so it was a bit left side dominant - go figure. The drivers were not broken in whatsoever. Based on this event, we think they will do very well. Alot of Asian and European SQ competitors use 3-way components. It will be interestingto see how well these are received in those areas...


----------



## Grizz Archer

jlohrenz said:


> From the manual:
> 
> in 2-way mode the crossover sends a 12dB highpass signal to the 20mm tweeter at 4kHz, and a 12dB lowpass signal to the 6.5" midbass driver at 4kHz.
> 
> In 3-way mode the crossover sends a 12dB highpass signal to the 20mm tweeter at 4kHz, a 400Hz highpass and 4kHz lowpass to the 2.5" midrange and a 400Hz lowpass to the 6.5" midbass driver.
> 
> They also used a PTC capacitor and a bulb to absorb excess power, and the crossover is easily switched from 2-way to 3-way mode with a switch.
> 
> On the crossover itself there are hookups based upon the configuration for two-way or three-way.


Precisely - thanx...


----------



## Oliver

Grizz Archer said:


> 10-4 and it will! But one questions Carolyn and I have now is do we want to do something new or modify the original... Top secret stuff! Stay tuned...


I'm sure that something will come of this , *that is excellent !*


----------



## MiniVanMan

Grizz Archer said:


> 400Hz and 4kHz. The 2.5 can go a bit lower, but with lower power handling. In an active system, the higher the HPF on the 2.5", the better for power handling, but sometimes lower is better to keep the stage high...


I must say that I'm impressed. Not only utilizing a small full range, but utilizing it well. Not trying to ask too much of it. 400 hz sounds high, but a VERY worthy sacrifice to get the dash mounting for stage height, and increased power handling. However, with the increased power handling, you run into the issue of power compression on the top end, which you address by keeping the mid crossed over nearly an octave and a half lower than what it's capable of. 

Very nice. 

Still wondering about the crossover. Does it let you disable the crossover between the mid and woofer so you can actively cross that over? If so, you now have what I run in my car. Active between mid and woofer, and passive between mid and tweeter.

The passive between the mid and tweeter is fine up on the dash as long as the two are vertically aligned and very close to each with equal path lengths. Then you can time align any differences between left and right. A lot of head units out there, that have active processing could handle a set up like this. A 9887 does, as that's what I use. 4-way setup, with only the need for 3-way processing. Win/Win.

I'm thoroughly impressed. Like DS-21 said, this is a segment that's been missing from car audio, but makes SO much sense. 

Here's the link where I do exactly this.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/38490-more-tinkering-santa-fe.html


----------



## mmiller

WOW, Grizz Just went from Zero, to Hero!!! 

Are you Glad you stuck around now Grizz, LOL...


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> I am not sure exactly what you want to know, but here is what I can tell you...


Dimensions, availability as a separate driver, any interesting tricks in the motor that people may be interested in knowing about. If you could post its raw FR, that would be awesome, too. Depending on size and performance, some of us might be interested in using them as widebanders. 



MiniVanMan said:


> I must say that I'm impressed. Not only utilizing a small full range, but utilizing it well. Not trying to ask too much of it. 400 hz sounds high, but a VERY worthy sacrifice to get the dash mounting for stage height, and increased power handling.


I'm not sure that 400Hz is that high. At least in my one car (widebanders in upper door, midbasses in lower door) once I got midbasses capable of playing to 1.5kHz or so I didn't hear any deleterious effects on staging from the the Fc until a bit over 800Hz.


----------



## rexroadj

Got a set on the way!!!!


----------



## Daishi

DS-21 said:


> Dimensions, availability as a separate driver, any interesting tricks in the motor that people may be interested in knowing about. If you could post its raw FR, that would be awesome, too. Depending on size and performance, some of us might be interested in using them as widebanders.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure that 400Hz is that high. At least in my one car (widebanders in upper door, midbasses in lower door) once I got midbasses capable of playing to 1.5kHz or so I didn't hear any deleterious effects on staging from the the Fc until a bit over 800Hz.


This!

Having them as a separate offering would be a great move as I would buy a set of the 2.5" units in a heartbeat. I am trying to shrink my a-pillar pods for the mid and tweet and this would help greatly.


----------



## Grizz Archer

MiniVanMan said:


> I must say that I'm impressed. Not only utilizing a small full range, but utilizing it well. Not trying to ask too much of it. 400 hz sounds high, but a VERY worthy sacrifice to get the dash mounting for stage height, and increased power handling. However, with the increased power handling, you run into the issue of power compression on the top end, which you address by keeping the mid crossed over nearly an octave and a half lower than what it's capable of.
> 
> Very nice.
> 
> Still wondering about the crossover. Does it let you disable the crossover between the mid and woofer so you can actively cross that over? If so, you now have what I run in my car. Active between mid and woofer, and passive between mid and tweeter.
> 
> The passive between the mid and tweeter is fine up on the dash as long as the two are vertically aligned and very close to each with equal path lengths. Then you can time align any differences between left and right. A lot of head units out there, that have active processing could handle a set up like this. A 9887 does, as that's what I use. 4-way setup, with only the need for 3-way processing. Win/Win.
> 
> I'm thoroughly impressed. Like DS-21 said, this is a segment that's been missing from car audio, but makes SO much sense.
> 
> Here's the link where I do exactly this.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/38490-more-tinkering-santa-fe.html


Since the xover is entirely passive, you could easily leave the midbass off and process it electronically, yes.


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> Dimensions, availability as a separate driver, any interesting tricks in the motor that people may be interested in knowing about. If you could post its raw FR, that would be awesome, too. Depending on size and performance, some of us might be interested in using them as widebanders.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure that 400Hz is that high. At least in my one car (widebanders in upper door, midbasses in lower door) once I got midbasses capable of playing to 1.5kHz or so I didn't hear any deleterious effects on staging from the the Fc until a bit over 800Hz.


Sorry, we packed those up so fast so they would be available before Junetember! I will get accurate dimensions tomorrow. I have a set in my office to measure. I think I also have an emailable file for the frequency response. The 2.5" truly is a wideband driver. As for interesting trick in the motor - sorry to disappoint there but it is fairly typical. Nothing crazy. My goal was to offer a great set of 3-way with some unique features and not have them cost over $1k. These are actually affordble and fairly easy to install. Took me about 30 minutes to install mine, but I was lucky, My a-pilar is flat so I only had to cut 4 holes and the 4 drivers were in. Go Jeep! lol


----------



## Grizz Archer

Daishi said:


> This!
> 
> Having them as a separate offering would be a great move as I would buy a set of the 2.5" units in a heartbeat. I am trying to shrink my a-pillar pods for the mid and tweet and this would help greatly.


Alright that's is darn it! On the next order, I will order 100 extra 2.5". Several people have asked now. Plus with the way the xovers are, one could very easily upgrade from 2-way to 3-way by just getting a set of the 2.5". Nothing else required. Actually that was the original plan. Sell a 2-way set and have the 2.5" separate, which is why I designed the passive network to convert with the push of a botton-switch. I just might have a sample set of of the 2.5" - they would be silver in color. I'll have to look around my shop...


----------



## Grizz Archer

mmiller said:


> WOW, Grizz Just went from Zero, to Hero!!!
> 
> Are you Glad you stuck around now Grizz, LOL...



Zero? Man, that's harsh! 

Hero? Are you high?  I'm just an audio junkie like the rest of you.

As long as I am not being crucified, I'll stick around. But if I do something really stupid (and it happens periodically), then go ahead and light me up!


----------



## Grizz Archer

Hopefully I do not screw this all up. Going to try to attach a few docs that will have the frequency responcy graphs for eachof the 3 drivers in the Precision Power PC3.65C set. I will also attach the parameters for the 6.5" and 2.5", but I do not have them for the tweeter. Tough to measure.

For you widebanders, the 2.5" is actually +/- 3dB from about 110Hz all the way up to 20kHz, however there is some radical peaks and dips above 12kHz as I said earlier...

Darn it. I hate being a gumby. What is the deal with uploading. I selected the files and uploaded them, but I do not see them attached anywhere? What am I doing wrong?























Oh, maybe I did it. One way to find out... Will send another email with the parameters...


----------



## Grizz Archer

Darn it! Ok, here is the Midbass since I put 2 of the tweeters above...

















Hopefully this comes out right...


----------



## Grizz Archer

Yaaaaay! I am only 1/2 retarded!


----------



## AAAAAAA

What is the x-max?


----------



## Grizz Archer

AAAAAAA said:


> What is the x-max?


I am working on that. A bit difficult to measure these. May take me a day or two. Sorry. These do not come apart well anmd i di not have any more raw parts laying around.


----------



## AAAAAAA

I am curious, how do you go about measuring the xmax exactly?

BTW thanks for the parameters.


----------



## MiniVanMan

Grizz Archer said:


> Alright that's is darn it! On the next order, I will order 100 extra 2.5". Several people have asked now. Plus with the way the xovers are, one could very easily upgrade from 2-way to 3-way by just getting a set of the 2.5". Nothing else required. Actually that was the original plan. Sell a 2-way set and have the 2.5" separate, which is why I designed the passive network to convert with the push of a botton-switch. I just might have a sample set of of the 2.5" - they would be silver in color. I'll have to look around my shop...


Actually, you SHOULD sell just the midrange and tweeter as a component set. I can guarantee that would sell if you explained the reasoning the right way. 

What that affords you is to still get product off the shelves, while giving consumers the flexibility of utilizing larger mids if they. The beauty of a widebander/tweeter set is that you can use a 8, 10, 12" midbass, or whatever you can cram in your door, and still be relatively stealth up on the dash. 

By offering it that way, you're not pigeonholing consumers into one type of setup. 



> Don't have room in your trunk for subs, or want to keep all your trunk space? Couple our 2.5" component set with a larger midbass of your choice and run subless.


When I did my Santa Fe and posted the setup, you can't imagine how many people PM'd me wanting the crossover schematic, or for me to build the crossover for them so they could do that kind of setup.

There's a market for it, I can guarantee it.


----------



## Grizz Archer

MiniVanMan said:


> Actually, you SHOULD sell just the midrange and tweeter as a component set. I can guarantee that would sell if you explained the reasoning the right way.
> 
> What that affords you is to still get product off the shelves, while giving consumers the flexibility of utilizing larger mids if they. The beauty of a widebander/tweeter set is that you can use a 8, 10, 12" midbass, or whatever you can cram in your door, and still be relatively stealth up on the dash.
> 
> By offering it that way, you're not pigeonholing consumers into one type of setup.
> 
> 
> 
> When I did my Santa Fe and posted the setup, you can't imagine how many people PM'd me wanting the crossover schematic, or for me to build the crossover for them so they could do that kind of setup.
> 
> There's a market for it, I can guarantee it.


Agreed and I will order extras on our next run. But coupling an 8" or bigger midbass to the 2.5" would yield some efficiency issues potentially. Nothing that a tweaker could dial in though.


----------



## DS-21

What's the outer diameter of the 2.5, and the bolt circle? Looks like something I'd want to try if it'll fit.


----------



## rexroadj

anyone have any thoughts on how that midrange might work (if at all) as a center channel?


----------



## DS-21

Depends on your mains, but I would think that on paper it's quite useful as a center channel.


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> What's the outer diameter of the 2.5, and the bolt circle? Looks like something I'd want to try if it'll fit.


OD of the raound flange is 2-13/16"

Mounting holes are 3" on center


----------



## MiniVanMan

Grizz Archer said:


> Agreed and I will order extras on our next run. But coupling an 8" or bigger midbass to the 2.5" would yield some efficiency issues potentially. Nothing that a tweaker could dial in though.


Yeah, an 8" would be more efficient on average, _but_ utilizing a 4 channel amp and the onboard crossovers, given they're usable up to 500 hz and you could use any sized driver you wanted, given it had usable frequency response up to 500 hz. There are a lot of amps out there that could actively cross over a midbass and midrange in the 300-400 hz range. Then just level match at that point. 

It's an active/passive hybrid setup. Again, a 3-way setup using only 2-way processing. That's VERY appealing. 

There a lot of people that could fit that little setup in their sail panels for a real easy installation. 

Getting the average consumer to understand the concepts is your biggest challenge.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> anyone have any thoughts on how that midrange might work (if at all) as a center channel?


I was waiting for somebody to ask that. What took you so long. Shorty answer - well.

Long answer - There are basically 2 types of center channels due to processing. Summed and Derived. Summed really sucks butt if you ask me because it is just like bridging an amp fullrange. But now you would have the information from the far channel coming at you from to different distant locations - not cool. And you would have the channel information form your side of the vehicle coming at you from both sides of you. Moronic.

A derived center channel basically removes the different left and right information and leave only the common information for the center channel to play. This is a veryu crude way to explain this, but you get the point. That being said, the highest frequencies are most commonly not coming from the center channel since they are so directional, however, the manupulations of sound in movies these days is pretty wild. Who knows, there may even be several ways to process a center channel now. My point was that I never use a tweeter in a center channel, only a midrange, especially when trying to duplicate THX xovers. Since the 2.5" gets a bit out of whack without EQ above 12kHz, it will work very well in a center channel application, IMHO. I anted to put one in my Jeep, but with my stage so high, I am scared a center channel will ruin what I have, even without time delay, which I do not use anyway...


----------



## Grizz Archer

MiniVanMan said:


> Yeah, an 8" would be more efficient on average, _but_ utilizing a 4 channel amp and the onboard crossovers, given they're usable up to 500 hz and you could use any sized driver you wanted, given it had usable frequency response up to 500 hz. There are a lot of amps out there that could actively cross over a midbass and midrange in the 300-400 hz range. Then just level match at that point.
> 
> It's an active/passive hybrid setup. Again, a 3-way setup using only 2-way processing. That's VERY appealing.
> 
> There a lot of people that could fit that little setup in their sail panels for a real easy installation.
> 
> Getting the average consumer to understand the concepts is your biggest challenge.


Ahh you hit a hot spot with me. So many amps do not yield the xover possibilities that I prefer. Every new amp since I have been here has had alot more range that previous years. I am very anal about this. Most of our amp can do HP up to 4kHz, and HP/LP/BP filters from 15Hz-4kHz on the rear channels of 4 ch models. 

Getting people to understand is always the hard part...


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> I was waiting for somebody to ask that. What took you so long. Shorty answer - well.
> 
> Long answer - There are basically 2 types of center channels due to processing. Summed and Derived. Summed really sucks butt if you ask me because it is just like bridging an amp fullrange. But now you would have the information from the far channel coming at you from to different distant locations - not cool. And you would have the channel information form your side of the vehicle coming at you from both sides of you. Moronic.
> 
> A derived center channel basically removes the different left and right information and leave only the common information for the center channel to play. This is a veryu crude way to explain this, but you get the point. That being said, the highest frequencies are most commonly not coming from the center channel since they are so directional, however, the manupulations of sound in movies these days is pretty wild. Who knows, there may even be several ways to process a center channel now. My point was that I never use a tweeter in a center channel, only a midrange, especially when trying to duplicate THX xovers. Since the 2.5" gets a bit out of whack without EQ above 12kHz, it will work very well in a center channel application, IMHO. I anted to put one in my Jeep, but with my stage so high, I am scared a center channel will ruin what I have, even without time delay, which I do not use anyway...



Thanks Fella's!! To me it seemed like a great choice for a center due to its size and pretty large spectrum of frequency. I will either keep my jbl gti608 set or the ppi 3ways that should be in my possesion some time next week! I like to be able to run my stuff full tilt and the jbl's laugh at anything I have thrown at them while staying insanely clear and dynamic. Right now I have a human reign bridged to them and they love it (waiting on a second one)! I dont imagine I can do that with the ppi stuff but hopefully wont really need to. I am assuming with that 3way I would not require much more then a 3rd midrange to work as a more then suitable center. I will either run it off an ms-8 or from a kenwood 9960's 5 channel processing. 
Grizz obviously you know more about this then I can dream of, but I cant imagine that the center would hurt the soundstage you have despite its height? Worth a shot if you ever have time anyway? Besides you could always let us know if it worked out bad or good so people can look for some sort of experience on the matter. Really liken the simplicity of the 8s thus far by the way. Really excited to try the 3ways!


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Thanks Fella's!! To me it seemed like a great choice for a center due to its size and pretty large spectrum of frequency. I will either keep my jbl gti608 set or the ppi 3ways that should be in my possesion some time next week! I like to be able to run my stuff full tilt and the jbl's laugh at anything I have thrown at them while staying insanely clear and dynamic. Right now I have a human reign bridged to them and they love it (waiting on a second one)! I dont imagine I can do that with the ppi stuff but hopefully wont really need to. I am assuming with that 3way I would not require much more then a 3rd midrange to work as a more then suitable center. I will either run it off an ms-8 or from a kenwood 9960's 5 channel processing.
> Grizz obviously you know more about this then I can dream of, but I cant imagine that the center would hurt the soundstage you have despite its height? Worth a shot if you ever have time anyway? Besides you could always let us know if it worked out bad or good so people can look for some sort of experience on the matter. Really liken the simplicity of the 8s thus far by the way. Really excited to try the 3ways!


Yeah, the 2.5" will work great but will not handle the amount of power as your JBLs. 

I do not have center channel processing so I can not do it properly. I would love to have a badass processor but don't. Actually I have a badass Audio Control EQ, but it does not have center channel processing built-in. I cannot afford to buy something like an MS-8, Bit one, etc. Plus, 1/2 the year I have my top and all 4 doors off of my Jeep, so SQ is pretty much impossible at that point. Can you imagine if I did have one of those bad boys and I had a setting just for being topless and doorless?! SICK! Man, the tweaking would be insane and how could I do it at 85 mph anyway to accoujnt for road noise with 37" tires? Hmmm, have a buddy drive while I do a quicky tune? lol It would have to make it better to some extent...


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz, if you are interested in an ms-8...I told you before what I can do for you regarding them! You have always been great to me so I would like to return the favor if I can (not in a gay way). Also if your doing 85 out there let me know when you see blues! My cousin is a cop out in your neck of the smog  Also I know exactly what a jeep is like with 37s....god damn do I miss mine  I am not going to go that big with my international scout rebuild but it will be a little close!


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## King Nothing

Grizz, Admittedly I haven't done alot of research, But im considering the 3 way and I need something that will get LOUD. They will be installed in my 2003 cobra convertible and the pioneer 720prs set (lower efficiency) just isnt cutting it. What kind of sensitivity rating are we looking at for this set? i also notice the 3 ohm impedance, wonder if that will cause problems as I run my current components on a bridged amp that is only 4 ohm stable


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## MiniVanMan

Wideband drivers are notoriously inefficient. Just the nature of the beast. From the graph, the 2.5" mid in this set only has a sensitivity rating of 80 db. Pretty typical.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Grizz, if you are interested in an ms-8...I told you before what I can do for you regarding them! You have always been great to me so I would like to return the favor if I can (not in a gay way). Also if your doing 85 out there let me know when you see blues! My cousin is a cop out in your neck of the smog  Also I know exactly what a jeep is like with 37s....god damn do I miss mine  I am not going to go that big with my international scout rebuild but it will be a little close!


If I ever run into some cash, I would love to try one.

That is the great things about a Jeep. Everybody expect them to be craw in the right lane. Mine was built right and hauls ass! Have not had a speeding ticket in years (knocking on my desk)! But ironically, I just got a ticket for Loud Stereo! Seriously, I am freaking 42. This is ridiculous. What city is your cop cousin in? Maybe do a system for him and earn a get out of jail free card! lol


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## Grizz Archer

King Nothing said:


> Grizz, Admittedly I haven't done alot of research, But im considering the 3 way and I need something that will get LOUD. They will be installed in my 2003 cobra convertible and the pioneer 720prs set (lower efficiency) just isnt cutting it. What kind of sensitivity rating are we looking at for this set? i also notice the 3 ohm impedance, wonder if that will cause problems as I run my current components on a bridged amp that is only 4 ohm stable


The 3-way set can get as loud as typical components, but if you need crazy loud, these are not for you. Look at Pro Audio. One thing to consider... A 2.5" and tweeter would not be loud in a kickpanel, but when they are in your dash or a-pilar, they are pretty loud. I have my treble turned down when I drive on the freewway just so the midbass can keep with the top and doors off my vehicle.

Eff is at about 87db...


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## rexroadj

Hey Grizz, SHE is a cop in LA! Part of some undercover gang thingy? She was one of the two cops in a really bad roll over on some LA freeway roughly a year ago that was plastered all over your news.


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## fertigaudio

Grizz, 

I would like to start some discussion on the new PC subs and the new PC DS subs. 

Is it true theta the PC.XXDS is based on the old Stroker from CV? Why is the specs on the PC.XXDS say it only has a 2 xmax on the 15? Sorry if you already answered this. Why is the PC.12DS not on the website? Are these "pro audio" woofers only or do you have plans to market these as car speakers? I cant wait to see what you will do with TEAM Lorett out of Florida. I am just excited about someone coming to the plate and giving us inside info on new products. I feel this is what has been missing from manufacturers 10 years ago. I understand why things went south with the rec.audio.car stuff but I miss those days. Thank you for coming on here and reviving my hopes for the original car audio kings, PPI.

Sorry one more thing to add to the fire. This page doesn't work. http://www.precisionpower.com/artsubcatalog.html


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## Grizz Archer

BTW, we just launched the bare PPI website today, it will grow alot over time, but we needs even something basic for now so people can see the new products well and know we are trying hard to develop and grow the line properly... What do you guys think so far?


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## Grizz Archer

fertigaudio said:


> Grizz,
> 
> I would like to start some discussion on the new PC subs and the new PC DS subs.
> 
> Is it true theta the PC.XXDS is based on the old Stroker from CV? Why is the specs on the PC.XXDS say it only has a 2 xmax on the 15? Sorry if you already answered this. Why is the PC.12DS not on the website? Are these "pro audio" woofers only or do you have plans to market these as car speakers? I cant wait to see what you will do with TEAM Lorett out of Florida. I am just excited about someone coming to the plate and giving us inside info on new products. I feel this is what has been missing from manufacturers 10 years ago. I understand why things went south with the rec.audio.car stuff but I miss those days. Thank you for coming on here and reviving my hopes for the original car audio kings, PPI.
> 
> Sorry one more thing to add to the fire. This page doesn't work. http://www.precisionpower.com/artsubcatalog.html


Hmmmm, I'll talk to the webs guy. Thanx! Maybe something with the new launch... Sorry about that!

Subs - The DS is not based off of the Stroker designs, but they do have a top spider which makes them similar. I do not screw with true specs. Many companies will add 15% to the linear Xmax specs. Reputable companies like JL do not do this. Actually, I take that back, even some good companies do this too. Anyway, it is this simple... The top plate is 25mm (1" thick). The Winding length on the coil is 29mm. 29 - 25 / 2 = 2mm of linear Xmax. But that has NOTHING to do with excursion capabilities. If a regular sub with an 8mm top plate can have the coil travel 19mm and still have the gap filled with the bottom 8mm of coil windings, then the DS could also have 19mm of travel. There is 2mm overhanging the gap. So 29 - 2 = 27mm. 27 - 8 = 19mm. This driver moves just fine, but the key point is that the 15" DS sub is 7dB more efficient than the PC.15, which is pretty average. The motor strength is one of the highest I have seen, EVER. In that way, it is also similar to the Stroker in regards to intentions. 

Team Lorett will be impressive - but that is all I can say for now... 

Man, I love the forums, just not the dickheads. None of us know everything, so this is a cool place for all of us to learn...


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## bkjay

The new site looks great! I'm sure you will add more speaker specs. soon. I would also like to see the pics to blow-up. Man the Art stuff looks sweet! Any news on the Art amps? Keep up the good work.


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## emperorjj1

looks pretty good. the team ppi doesnt do anything but sites still under construction so


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## fertigaudio

New Art Amps? Intriguing! I wanna see some guts!


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## rexroadj

I absolutely LOVE the new look of the art amps! If there anywhere near what the ss ref amps are you can sign me up for some! WELL DONE with the cosmetics thus far!


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## Grizz Archer

bkjay said:


> The new site looks great! I'm sure you will add more speaker specs. soon. I would also like to see the pics to blow-up. Man the Art stuff looks sweet! Any news on the Art amps? Keep up the good work.


Thanx, it will take awhile. I am forwarding everbody's suggestions to the website guys... 

There has been a TON of things going on about the new Art Series, but it will be a little while longer before I can divulge the details...


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## Grizz Archer

fertigaudio said:


> New Art Amps? Intriguing! I wanna see some guts!


Old school amps will aways look "better". With exceptions like the Venti or Thesis... They will be clean though, just not packed full of bulky 80s and 90s parts...


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## mmiller

Grizz Archer said:


> Thanx, it will take awhile. I am forwarding everbody's suggestions to the website guys...
> 
> There has been a TON of things going on about the new Art Series, but it will be a little while longer before I can divulge the details...


is the image representative of what the new art series will look like Grizz?? If so they look Bitchen.... 

The website is 100% better than the old one....


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## giabyul

Please tell me that the new art series amps are going to look exactly like that and that you will offer one with similar power output to the old A600's. If so I will take three.


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## Grizz Archer

mmiller said:


> is the image representative of what the new art series will look like Grizz?? If so they look Bitchen....
> 
> The website is 100% better than the old one....


That was the plan, but unfortunately no. I Wish! We still are working this. It's killing me slowly...


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## mmiller

Grizz Archer said:


> That was the plan, but unfortunately no. I Wish! We still are working this. It's killing me slowly...


Dude your Kiling me...LOL.


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## Grizz Archer

sam3535 said:


> ...audio_enormous douchebag


No need to be a dickhead...


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## dave_damage

meh.....


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## sam3535

Grizz Archer said:


> No need to be a dickhead...


then edit your post.:laugh:


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## mmiller

sam3535 said:


> then edit your post.:laugh:


That Post was Directed at me, nothing to do with you. Grizz is a friend of mine.... Don't be a Dickhead!


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## sam3535

mmiller said:


> That Post was Directed at me, nothing to do with you. Grizz is a friend of mine.... Don't be a Dickhead!


What in the name of god are you talking about? Grizz quoted my post and said "don't be a dickhead". Reading comprehension > you! Look, I addded an exclamation point for emphasis!


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## sam3535

89grand said:


> That's a marketing angle I've never seen before. That should win plenty of customers.:laugh:
> 
> Oh yeah, and Audio_Scam or whatever he goes by these days is viewed by many to be an enormous douche bag in case that wasn't some how already known.


Watch out, Grizz is mmiller's friend! And you're a dickhead.


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## 86mr2

Oh, thank god. The win returns to this thread. it was getting dull!


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## mmiller

sam3535 said:


> Watch out, Grizz is mmiller's friend! And you're a dickhead.


I told you that your a Dickhead!


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## ChrisB

Wait a second here, I thought I was the Dickhead.

Edit: How dare you steal my glory!


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## mmiller

Wait a Minute.... i'm the Dickhead.....


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## 86mr2

Now, now boys, no shoving. There is enough dickheadedness to go around.


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## coffee_junkee

Grizz Archer said:


> That was the plan, but unfortunately no. I Wish! We still are working this. It's killing me slowly...


Good. Not digging the cheapo-industrial look seen on the Art amplifier page.

Needs to be cleaner!

The three way comp set looks to be a winner. Can't wait until they become readily available.


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## Audio_Images

Grizz Archer said:


> That was the plan, but unfortunately no. I Wish! We still are working this. It's killing me slowly...


Ayup


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## bagged2drag

Grizz Archer said:


> That was the plan, but unfortunately no. I Wish!  We still are working this. It's killing me slowly...


Glad to see PPI is coming "back." I have been following their website for a while now, saw the picture of the Art series in the amplifiers section. I also looked at the 2010 catalog and saw the art series in there. Is this what the new art series will look like? Is there plans to bring the design on the main site to fruition? Checking out the other lines, the new PC series has better specs (lower thd, class a/b etc.). It seems that although the art is to be positioned above the PC class, the specs dictate otherwise. Is the 2010 catalog still some of the old?

I am really interested in seeing PPI reinvent themselves, as i have been a long time fan.







precisionpower.com/ppi_catalog_2010.pdf


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## Audio_Images

Autiophile said:


> I get the impression that you (Dave) are the "it" (or at the very least the cause of "it") in "it's killing me slowly..."


lol why dont you ask Grizz and see?


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## Warren Young

Dave,
Sent you a PM...


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## chad

arrrrgh ole eff ell.


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## 89grand

Audio_Images said:


> lol why dont you ask Grizz and see?


There's no need to do that.:laugh:


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## Warren Young

Dave?


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## chad

Dave's not here man....

YouTube - Cheech and Chong " Dave's not here"


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## Grizz Archer

bagged2drag said:


> Glad to see PPI is coming "back." I have been following their website for a while now, saw the picture of the Art series in the amplifiers section. I also looked at the 2010 catalog and saw the art series in there. Is this what the new art series will look like? Is there plans to bring the design on the main site to fruition? Checking out the other lines, the new PC series has better specs (lower thd, class a/b etc.). It seems that although the art is to be positioned above the PC class, the specs dictate otherwise. Is the 2010 catalog still some of the old?
> 
> I am really interested in seeing PPI reinvent themselves, as i have been a long time fan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> precisionpower.com/ppi_catalog_2010.pdf


Everything from 2010 was engineered from the ground up, reinvented as you would say. The bland Art Collection amp in the catalog was an abomination and only at CES to let people know that Art was coming. The newer design that was generated that was very similar to the originals, was only a concept. Alot has transpired over the last month that has changed everything. At this point, there is no confirmed cosmetics for Art, but we are working on it. The boards have been done since last year! Hopefully we will have a design done soon...


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## Grizz Archer

Autiophile said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> 
> Hey Grizz,
> 
> Has Dave contributed to the stress you indicated by the "it's killing me" comment?
> 
> A "yes" or "no" would be perfectly adequate.




Actually, I think you all will undertsand in about 5 minutes when I make a large post. A serious apology is due on my part and I have delayed it due to time needed for research. But now it's time. I just need to finish reading the rest of this final page and then my letter will be posted...


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## Audio_Images

I never lied. But its fine. The people from PPI and DEI know that all I did was preserve the files that were left behind. I never tried to make money from them. I just wanted someone to reuse them someday and I thought it was you. I am sorry as well ofr trying to do what I thought was the right thing. I never meant to hurt anyone. I never asked for a single penny from this all either. There was no ill motives. I am sorry to CHY too, I never meant to hurt her work, I just wanted to make it availiable for another generation. There is no harm in that.


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## ErinH

Wait, Dave lied?
No way! 
I wonder if he was lying about 'his' installs? Wait, yep... he was. We proved it a month ago. 


Hope the mods are watching. We all spent weeks trying to warn them of the virus that is Audio_Stolen_Images. Nothing. Chalk this up as a lesson learned.


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## Audio_Images

I never lied about my installs.


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## JAX

what !? after all this the ARTS are NOT going to be released?? shame ...


So what is the top line from the new PPI going to be then ? PC ? 

I guess its right that we wouldnt want to put the ART name on something less than the originals ...

but I do want to know where this new amp will lie in the mix since you have the boards all made and stuff.


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## imjustjason

We lost a good mod over daves lies.


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## Audio_Images

wtf? I had nothing to do with any mod leaving...


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## 89grand

On a lighter note. I think everyone on this forum that has received warnings or infractions from things they said to Dave should be erased, as it's quite clear all of us that called him a scam were dead on accurate.


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## ErinH

Audio_Images said:


> I never lied about my installs.


You, sir, need professional medical attention. You lie about lying.

"my son did it". Whatever, dude. Man up. 
You should get an IP ban for all the BS you've started and lied about.

I'd put you on ignore, but it's too much fun watching you self destruct.


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## 86mr2

Audio_Images said:


> wtf? I had nothing to do with any mod leaving...


Of course you did. Remember that whole threaten the forum with legal action thing? How many personalities do you have crammed in there anyway?


----------



## Audio_Images

I had nothing to do with any mods leaving, and I said I meant no harm in anything. I didnt steal anything, I didnt lie either. This was all done to save face from a lawsuit. The .2 graphics were never contracted, and anyone who owns one can verify this. That is why her name was not on any of them. That was also nothing I had to do with. I said I am sorry to CHY, and I never did anything to Grizz but offer him to make the art series for another generation to enjoy. And I wanted nothing in return.

Dont sweat it - im done.


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## Audio_Images

Ya I suck too - bye all. I am sorry.


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## 86mr2

Audio_Images said:


> Dont sweat it - im done.


What's that, about the 8th time?


----------



## imjustjason

Audio_Images said:


> Ya I suck.


Alas! Dave has said something true.


----------



## Daishi

Audio_Images said:


> I had nothing to do with any mods leaving, and I said I meant no harm in anything. I didnt steal anything, I didnt lie either. This was all done to save face from a lawsuit. The .2 graphics were never contracted, and anyone who owns one can verify this. That is why her name was not on any of them. That was also nothing I had to do with. I said I am sorry to CHY, and I never did anything to Grizz but offer him to make the art series for another generation to enjoy. And I wanted nothing in return.
> 
> Dont sweat it - im done.


By this point if your ass isn't banned it shows just how truly jacked this forum has become. You sir are a lying cheating turd. 

Remember the entire crayon on a napkin deal? That came from your mouth...nobodyy elses


----------



## rommelrommel

Grizz, it takes a lot of balls to come out and say what you did. You've represented your company, and more importantly yourself, as being truly honourable. You've put any lingering questions about this whole debacle to bed for good. 






And Dave, you're hardly worth the effort to type this in, but...

If you truly believe all the things you've posted over the last month or whatever, I hope you get help. You've said so many things that are obviously false that you must either be a pathological liar or mentally ill. I hope you can learn something from this.


----------



## ErinH

Audio_Images said:


> Ya I suck too - bye all. I am sorry.


lies.


----------



## ChrisB

Audio_Images said:


> I never did anything to Grizz but offer him to make the art series for another generation to enjoy. And I wanted nothing in return.


What about the name accreditation and the three free amplifiers that you requested for providing the "original" artwork?

That constitutes "something in return".


----------



## sam3535

ChrisB said:


> What about the name accreditation and the three free amplifiers that you requested for providing the "original" artwork?
> 
> That constitutes "something in return".


*I was waiting on that.*


----------



## Ban Hammer

*This issue has been handled.

---Brian*


----------



## imjustjason

Thank you.


----------



## Ban Hammer

I believe Grizz Archer's apology post deserves it's own thread so it's not lost on this long and winding thread.


----------



## chad

SolemnSinner said:


> I believe Grizz Archer's apology post deserves it's own thread so it's not lost on this long and winding thread.


I concur if it's cool with Grizz.


----------



## Ban Hammer

chad said:


> I concur if it's cool with Grizz.


Also, the positive feedback posts to his apology should be merged along with it.


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## imjustjason

Include the kudo's posts and edit out the dave mess and any responses to dave.

EDIT: Brian beat me to it.


----------



## Grizz Archer

JAX said:


> what !? after all this the ARTS are NOT going to be released?? shame ...
> 
> 
> So what is the top line from the new PPI going to be then ? PC ?
> 
> I guess its right that we wouldnt want to put the ART name on something less than the originals ...
> 
> but I do want to know where this new amp will lie in the mix since you have the boards all made and stuff.


PC is the top line. Art was going to be the next steo down, but by no means a typical or boring amplifier. The new series, whatever we end up calling it, will still be a killer amplifier with awesome preamp section, balenced line inputs, etc...

Another guy just PM'ed me and had the same idea I had. There is an 8" and 12" low power series of subs called ART SQ that are already shipping. We both had the thought to call the new series simply "SQ Series". Thoughts? Or go with something totally different. I'm always open for ideas...


----------



## Grizz Archer

Audio_Images said:


> I never lied. But its fine. The people from PPI and DEI know that all I did was preserve the files that were left behind. I never tried to make money from them. I just wanted someone to reuse them someday and I thought it was you. I am sorry as well ofr trying to do what I thought was the right thing. I never meant to hurt anyone. I never asked for a single penny from this all either. There was no ill motives. I am sorry to CHY too, I never meant to hurt her work, I just wanted to make it availiable for another generation. There is no harm in that.


I will make this last statement. Dave never did ask for a penny. He is right about this. However, Dave, you wanted credit for "recreating" the artwork. That is WRONG! This whole situation destroyed any chance of us releasing Art Series with the retro cosmetics that we all were dying to make a reality again. It's over, will not happen...


----------



## BigAl205

Maybe you could put out some empty non-working shells and name it after him? :laugh:


----------



## rexroadj

How about the GFYDAVE series? CHY sq series? Although I do like the "SQ series" as well. I would REALLY REALLY have to play with one for a while to really figure out a good name  I might have room next to the HRU.4!


----------



## Grizz Archer

chad said:


> I concur if it's cool with Grizz.


That is fine with me. The more people that read my apology and that understand that neither me or my company ever meant any ounce of harm to Carolyn and Warren, the better...


----------



## TREETOP

And we'll blame Dave for there never being another Art series.


----------



## benny

just curious, why not pay CHY her royalties and make the Art Series?


----------



## JAX

Grizz Archer said:


> PC is the top line. Art was going to be the next steo down, but by no means a typical or boring amplifier. The new series, whatever we end up calling it, will still be a killer amplifier with awesome preamp section, balenced line inputs, etc...
> 
> Another guy just PM'ed me and had the same idea I had. There is an 8" and 12" low power series of subs called ART SQ that are already shipping. We both had the thought to call the new series simply "SQ Series". Thoughts? Or go with something totally different. I'm always open for ideas...



thanks for clarifying that for me ...I am just glad you are doing what your doing and helping where you can.

Also glad people have given you the chance to enlighten us on the new products. you have always been professional with me

I am glad you have come through this without loosing your job or anything else ..

I would hate to loose a good member of this community.


----------



## Grizz Archer

benny said:


> just curious, why not pay CHY her royalties and make the Art Series?


We talked about that, but it did not work out. I gues you could say that we cannot afford such a luxury. I can do another Art Series, but if it is not going to look like the original, I would rather go a diffferent route. If I had the money personally, I would pay the royalties!


----------



## ANT

Thread Cleaned up.
Last two weeks of posts for Art series suggestions moved in to its own new thread located here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...estions-art-series-amps-thread-continued.html

Please continue the discussion in that thread.

ANT


----------

