# Mike's new Pro Audio Blowthrough



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Well, the time has come once again. I have done several blowthroughs in the past, and all my installs over the last few years have utilized high efficiency/pro audio drivers, including horns. I bought a 2004 F-150 Lariat SuperCrew a few months ago, and after some planning and gear purchasing, and 6 straight days of building, fabricating, and bleeding, my build is now complete. 

About a month ago, a friend sent me an email titled "here are the ultimate midbass" with a link to an eBay auction. The woofers for sale were the brand new BMS 18N862, and the seller was none other than Vance Dickason. What started off as a simple question about enclosure options turned into a week or two of dialogue with one of the most well-respected (and down to earth) guys I've had the chance of visiting with. I bounced some ideas off him, and decided on the design you'll see here. 

My plan was a simpler version of the build I did in my S10 last year:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...y/102176-2003-s-10-pro-audio-blowthrough.html

I wanted to use as little wattage as possible while achieving very high output- my goal was 130+db from 20-20khz. Here is the gear I used for this install:

HU/Processor: Alpine IVA-W200/PXA-H701

High: BMS 4550 1" compression driver with ID mini bodies

Midrange: Audax PR170M0

Midbass/Subs: BMS 18N862 (x2)

Amps: Kenwood XR-4S (x2)


The plan was to run one amp in stereo to the horns and Audax, and run the other as a dual mono to the pair of 18s, giving me roughly 75w a piece to the horns and midranges, and 200-250w a piece to the woofers. All in all, a very low powered setup. I didn't want to do the battery and alternator upgrades I did on the S10, and wanted to keep this as simple as possible. 

When Vance tested the BMS woofers, they measured flat up to almost 800hz. We modeled their in-cabin response in a 5cf enclosure tuned to 28hz, and one woofer was good for [email protected]/m all the way down to 20hz. Pretty impressive drivers these are. I did not want to cut the whole width of the bed out, so I came up with a design to minimize the cut and still pull off the build. The plan was to run the BMS 18s as high as 300hz, where the Audax would pick up for midrange duty and the horns from about 1.2khz up. 

Here is the enclosure:




























Masked off for spray-on bedliner:










And the lid on:










I used a double baffle for the woofers, and doubled the divider wall. Each enclosure is 5cf net tuned to about 30hz. I left a space between the woofers of 24" x 18" which coincides with the hole I cut.

Next, I went to the midranges. After trying a few different ideas for locations, I settled on the factory locations in the doors, which house a 5x7/6x8 from the factory. The Audax are 7.5" outer diameter, but with some simple trimming to the door panel, I was able to make them fit with ease. First I built some MDF rings. They are secured to the door with 2 bolts which are countersunk into the ring for a flush mount. I used butyl rope from Don, sandwiched between the baffle and the door. Threaded inserts were used extensively in this build, including on these rings:











Mid installed:










Clearance with door panel on:



















And with the factory grille clipped in place:










Continued...


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Here is the driver's side door finished:










Next I mounted the horns. In the past, I have used plumber's tape/backstrap to hold up the weight of the compression driver. The stuff is incredibly sharp, and you have to find a bolt up under the dash somewhere to attach it to. I tried a new trick this time and it ended up working out great. After fabbing up some brackets out of aluminum bar, drilling a few new holes, and getting the horns mounted, I took some bailing wire that farmers use for fences, wrapped it around the base where the compression driver mounts to the horn lens, then looped it up over the reinforced bar that spans the dash, then brought the two ends together and twisted the wire until the horn was level and snug. It worked better than any other method I've tried in the past and was by far the simplest. Best of all, the horns don't budge! Here they are installed. I am going to fab up some grilles of some sort:



















And the new BMS 4550 compared to the DE500s I've been using for the past few years:










Next, I upgraded "the Big 3" under the hood to 1/0awg. I won't be drawing a ton of current, but it's definitely an added strain. 

Ground:










Battery to alternator:










In this pic, you can see a heat shield sleeve around the 1/0 that goes to the back for distribution to the amps and processor. It runs somewhat close to the exhaust manifold, so I wanted to be safe:










Next was the headunit, which was pretty straightforward since I already had a 2DIN opening:










Continued...


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Now for the fun part- cutting the bed/cab.  As I said before, I wanted to keep the hole relatively small on this truck, without sacrificing the woofers I could run. The Lariat also has a small fold-down arm rest in the center of the back seat, and this aligns perfectly with it. First, we marked off for the cut:










We used a combination of a grinder, an air saw, and a sawzall (for the double and triple thick portions of the cab side). Here is the bed side cut:










I rounded the corners so it'd be easier installing the accordion boot.



















One thing I tried with great success on my last install was the butyl rope from Don as a decoupler. I ran it down on the bed rails then set the enclosure on top of it. The only problem is, the stuff is INCREDIBLY adhesive! It took almost an entire day removing that old enclosure from the S10. So with this build, I came up with a new way to go about it. I made a 'footprint' of the enclosure with a piece of 3/4" MDF. I then drilled holes through the wood and the bed once it was set in place, and used large threaded inserts with 'hats' on them so they don't pull through (there are a total of 8). I used 1/4" x 1.5" hex bolts with lock washers from the under side of the bed that go up through the holes and screw into the threaded inserts, holding this footprint in place. Sandwiched between this piece of MDF and the bed are some rubber-backed carpet tiles I had laying around, so the wood doesn't make direct contact with the bed. 










Then, on top of the base, I set butyl rope down spanning front to back, spaced 3-4" apart, like this:



















Then it was time to set the enclosure in place. This took 3 of us, as it is heavy, cumbersome, and with the butyl rope eagerly anticipating 250lbs of MDF, we only had one shot at getting it perfectly in place. 










I also designed the hole so it was large enough to load the woofers in through, so we didn't have the added weight of the subs in the enclosure while moving it around. Here are the woofers installed, again, with threaded inserts and 2" long panhead bolts:










Continued...


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Initially, I wanted to install the amps under the rear seat, but I have two young girls who love to spill their juice all over (thank god for leather!) so I wasn't terribly happy about the location. After pulling the rear seatback off, I was surprised at how much room I had back there. So, I mocked up some amp rack ideas and came up with this:










This is behind the passenger side, and holds the H701, one of the XR-4S, and the Streetwires CBR44 distribution block. The second amp is mounted behind the drivers side:










The amps, processor and distribution block are attached to the racks with threaded inserts and panhead bolts, and the amp racks are attached to the cab with self-tapping screws where the cab wall is double-thick, so no screws accidentally exited out the back! I also used butyl rope bewteen the racks and the cab wall for a little extra adhesion and to hopefully soften the blow of a pair of 18s firing right at them.



So, I built the enclosure late last week, and started the install on Sunday. I worked the past 5 days straight on it, and fired everything up this afternoon. Initial listening impressions are...   It has every bit of impact my S10 did and then some. The 18s are incredibly impressive drivers. Very accurate, very responsive, and unlike most pro audio woofers, they dig DEEP! With 19mm of xmax (that I'll NEVER get close to) and an Fs in the 20s, they are definitely in a class of their own among pro woofers. 

The Audax sound surprisingly good in the factory door locations, and after just a few hours of tuning this evening, I feel like I have a decent center image and stage, even with the woofers running up to 280hz. I am very impressed with the BMS 4550. They sparkle up top and are very powerful with no fatigue. They definitely have no trouble hanging with the DE500. I will continue to post my results as I get in some more listening time. I have midterms all weekend but will try and get a few sessions in. 

One bummer on a side note is some issue with the Code Alarm that was in the truck when I bought it. It either has a short in it, or is in some intermittent lockout mode- the battery in the truck died yesterday, so I charged it back up and was driving around this evening listening and the factory security light started flashing, then went solid and all the gauges went haywire and the truck sputtered and died. I posted a thread about it in the Security section, so hopefully someone sees it and can offer some suggestions. I'm not an alarm guy.  Anyway, hope you enjoyed the build. Not a million pictures, but I finished the damn thing in a week and am very happy with the results so far.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

As always, beautiful box! I didn't see any mention or pics of sound deadener. Is the butyl rope all you used this time around? I guess you wouldn't really need any for the doors since the Audax are only playing down to 300hz. But those 18's gotta be rattling something.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

fish said:


> As always, beautiful box! I didn't see any mention or pics of sound deadener. Is the butyl rope all you used this time around? I guess you wouldn't really need any for the doors since the Audax are only playing down to 300hz. But those 18's gotta be rattling something.


You are correct- there is none in this truck. I didn't want to spend days and money trying to fix a problem I wasn't even sure I had yet. The enclosure doesn't actually come into contact with the truck at all; it might as well be hovering over the bed. There is butyl rope between it and the front of the bed as well as underneath. The outcome was pretty amazing... there are a few mild rattles here and there that I will hunt down but overall the truck is very quiet and the impact is solid.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Mike, very impressive build. How are the woofers doing in the midbass frequencies?


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

VERY impressive as always!!!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mitchyz250f said:


> Mike, very impressive build. How are the woofers doing in the midbass frequencies?


These woofers are animals! Great impact, and incredibly accurate. I am very impressed. In the last install, I had the same amp bridged to a pair of 2204H, and two XR-1S running two W15GTi. I would put the overall output of the two 18s between 20-300hz just about on par with the old setup, if not a little better.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

FWIW, the butyl rope can be bought at NAPA. It comes in a couple of different thicknesses and is used to seal/install windshields on older cars.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> FWIW, the butyl rope can be bought at NAPA. It comes in a couple of different thicknesses and is used to seal/install windshields on older cars.


Good to know the next time I'm on a time crunch and need to get some locally. Don has always treated me fair and I don't mind sending him the business.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I bet this thing would make you flinch when a snare hits.

Thing of beauty right there...


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> I bet this thing would make you flinch when a snare hits.
> 
> Thing of beauty right there...


It's arguably louder than standing in front of a cab at a live show. It has scared a few people so far.


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## sqhhr (Mar 11, 2008)

I love a good snappy snare. Excellent job on the installation. Looks great for just a weeks worth of work. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


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## danno14 (Sep 1, 2009)

Sub'd......


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## Flash_Gti (Dec 8, 2008)

you sir have just made my year! up until today I have been thinking abt how to seal up my truck should I attempt a blow-thru enclosure! accordion boot ftw!!

super install btw!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

sqhhr said:


> I love a good snappy snare. Excellent job on the installation. Looks great for just a weeks worth of work.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


Thank you... aside from the enclosure build which was 2 days, the whole install was done in 5 days. Definitely the fastest one I've done, so it was nice to keep the theme simple. Snappy snares FTW. 



Flash_Gti said:


> you sir have just made my year! up until today I have been thinking abt how to seal up my truck should I attempt a blow-thru enclosure! accordion boot ftw!!
> 
> super install btw!


Thanks! I remember when I did my first blowthrough a few years ago, and found the same thing in someone else's install thread. That accordion boot was a serious life saver. You should be able to find it online. I got mine locally from a Camper/RV dealer in their parts dept. It's normally $5-$8 per foot. The tricky part is on the parts of the cab where there is a channel, so it's double or triple layers. I just took a grinder and cut out a notch between where the two layers meet back up so the boot had a clean edge to grab ahold of.

I seriously cannot believe how loud these woofers are off 200w a piece. And clean. And snappy. And impactful. And LOW END MONSTERS. All from a single driver. It's borderline retarded, seriously.  For those of you who don't have dual 18" midbass/subs... you're missin' out.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Man, I'm seriously contemplating buying a plane ticket out to Arizona. I've always wanted to see the Grand Canyon anyways.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Nice design, Mike.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

MarkZ said:


> Nice design, Mike.


Thanks, Mark. 




Fish, you could come sit in my truck for an hour and you'd forget allll about the Grand Canyon. 

I have located the single rattle (I think) in the truck. Well actually, I found a few today. The first one- I heard what I thought was the sub clipping/bottoming out. Impossible, I said! So I climbed in the back seat, and stuck my head through the armrest and into the aural chamber of horror with the volume wide open, and the subs are moving so much air, they were causing the accordion boot to flex and flap.  So, I stuck a few lines of butyl rope between the ridges in the flexible part of the boot, and that seems to have added enough mass and adhesion to keep them from flapping around. Second and hopefully the final rattle is in the rear window. The Lariat came with a power sliding rear window, which was of course broken when I bought the truck in November. Lucky for me too, since the window motor was in the direct path of the hole I had to cut.  So the motor got yanked, as did the cables that moved the window back and forth. This took the tension off the window (wasn't much to begin with) but the center part that slides is definitely rattling. When I push up against it, the truck is virtually rattle-free. So I am going to replace the glass with a solid rear window, and that should solve my problem.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

How about those Audax mids and their HALF millimeter of excursion? Damned beautiful sounding right ?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> How about those Audax mids and their HALF millimeter of excursion? Damned beautiful sounding right ?


They really are impressive the more I listen to them. I had them in the previous install (in my old truck that I linked in the first post in this thread) but didn't have them in very long. The more I listen to them the more I am smitten. I currently have them coming in at 250hz where I have the BMS LPF'd. The overall balance of the setup has been so enjoyable thus far. The 4550s play effortlessly and the woofers have so much authority and yet blend so well with everything at the same time. I am tempted to pick up an 8" midrange from BMS (the 8N515) for OCDs' sake of having an all-BMS setup, and just to try something new, but I have absolutely no complaints about the Audax. Best midrange I've tried to date by far. It won't dig as low as some of the larger drivers, but its ability to reproduce midrange bests the 2118H, and that's saying quite a bit. I can't complain about the stage, but I'm afraid to run the Audax below 250hz, and it might be fun to run something down to 180-200 in the front doors just to play around with the sound a bit.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

^ nice sig


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## ek9cv5 (Jan 12, 2012)

Wow awesome box


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

mikey7182 said:


> They really are impressive the more I listen to them. I had them in the previous install (in my old truck that I linked in the first post in this thread) but didn't have them in very long. The more I listen to them the more I am smitten. I currently have them coming in at 250hz where I have the BMS LPF'd. The overall balance of the setup has been so enjoyable thus far. The 4550s play effortlessly and the woofers have so much authority and yet blend so well with everything at the same time. I am tempted to pick up an 8" midrange from BMS (the 8N515) for OCDs' sake of having an all-BMS setup, and just to try something new, but I have absolutely no complaints about the Audax. Best midrange I've tried to date by far. It won't dig as low as some of the larger drivers, but its ability to reproduce midrange bests the 2118H, and that's saying quite a bit. I can't complain about the stage, but I'm afraid to run the Audax below 250hz, and it might be fun to run something down to 180-200 in the front doors just to play around with the sound a bit.


Yeah, it's nice having that kind of flexibility to move that crossover point around without having to worry about energy. I'm sort of in the same boat as you, with the w15gti handling "midbass" duty and giving way to a B&C 6mdn44. What do you like specifically about the Audax where the 2118H falls short?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> FWIW, the butyl rope can be bought at NAPA. It comes in a couple of different thicknesses and is used to seal/install windshields on older cars.


Not the same stuff. Butyl adhesives for windshield sealing are optimized for waterproofing, not vibration damping. I can't quantify the performance difference in this application but they are absolutely not the same thing as you seem to be implying.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Mike, I love the open and dynamic sound of the Audax’s and used them in my car and home. But I wanted a speaker that could fit behind my door grill for a more stealth look. After some research I found the PHL 1120, it has nearly identical specs. and looks just like the Audax’s but with a slightly different basket that would allow me to get them behind the door panels. 
More good news, they are 1 or 2 db more sensitive below 1000Hz and have 4x the travel at 2mm than the Audax's. The bad news is that they are twice as expensive at $150 each.

http://www.theblueplanetstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1120

As a direct replacement, w/o eq they sounded the same to me. Dynamic and unrestrained. Give them a shot, its only money.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mitchyz250f said:


> Mike, I love the open and dynamic sound of the Audax’s and used them in my car and home. But I wanted a speaker that could fit behind my door grill for a more stealth look. After some research I found the PHL 1120, it has nearly identical specs. and looks just like the Audax’s but with a slightly different basket that would allow me to get them behind the door panels.
> More good news, they are 1 or 2 db more sensitive below 1000Hz and have 4x the travel at 2mm than the Audax's. The bad news is that they are twice as expensive at $150 each.
> 
> http://www.theblueplanetstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1120
> ...


I'm curious with that xmax and a recommended HPF of 300hz/-12db, if it'd be safe to cross them as low as 150-180hz with a 4th order slope?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

MarkZ said:


> Yeah, it's nice having that kind of flexibility to move that crossover point around without having to worry about energy. I'm sort of in the same boat as you, with the w15gti handling "midbass" duty and giving way to a B&C 6mdn44. What do you like specifically about the Audax where the 2118H falls short?


The advantage of the 2118 is obviously a lower HPF. Above 200hz though, the Audax just seems more... snappy? Dynamic? Hard to put a word on it, and the 2118 is a very snappy mid, but the Audax just seems to have snappier snare, more coherent vocals, etc. They Helen very well with horns.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Mike,

Why would you want to play your mid down to 150-180hz if the 18's are playing up to 250 so well? Is it pulling the stage to the back?


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Mike, I am pretty sure Jason has experience with the PHL's. The recommended crossover for the Audax's from what I have read is 400-500Hz for HiFi. But I have read them being crossed as low as 300Hz open baffle.

For the PHL's it is lower, but the PHL's has a Fs of 130Hz, so conventional thinking would be don't run them lower that 260Hz. With the 2118's you could go much lower.

Modeled in UniBox:
-With the Audax you are at full excursion at 300Hz at 104db (at 12 watts).They can be pushed beyond that before distortion is heard. With the PHLs you would be at 106db but not near the full excursion.
-With the PHLs you are at full excursion at 300Hz at 117db (at 150 watts).

Of course this doesn't answer your question. 

Why do you want to run them lower?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The stuff I used to put a windshield in my old car came from NAPA and was the same part number as the stuff you had pictured on your website at one point, both were the same Kent part number.



Rudeboy said:


> Not the same stuff. Butyl adhesives for windshield sealing are optimized for waterproofing, not vibration damping. I can't quantify the performance difference in this application but they are absolutely not the same thing as you seem to be implying.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mitchyz250f said:


> Mike, I am pretty sure Jason has experience with the PHL's. The recommended crossover for the Audax's from what I have read is 400-500Hz for HiFi. But I have read them being crossed as low as 300Hz open baffle.
> 
> For the PHL's it is lower, but the PHL's has a Fs of 130Hz, so conventional thinking would be don't run them lower that 260Hz. With the 2118's you could go much lower.
> 
> ...



To answer you and fish, the stage is getting pulled back just a bit crossing the 18s at 250hz. Mostly because of some resonance issues. I actually dropped them down to 200hz this morning with mattyjman listening, as well as moved the Audax down to 200hz, and I hear no signs of distress on the Audax, and noticed an improvement in staging. I still want to play it safe with the mids, and don't feel comfortable dropping them below 200hz (even that is pushing it) but there is no audible distortion or distress, and there are some distinct notes on a few tracks that I can tell moved forward in the stage. I think a 150-175hz xover point would be the best of both worlds. I don't think I'll find a 6-7" driver as efficient and snappy as the Audax, which is why I was looking to an 8" driver. Any suggestions?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

If some notes are being pulled forward so abruptly, play some more with the crossover region. Specifically, delay and phase, crossover overlap, and aim for shallower slopes on the midrange if possible. Delay is especially important here, IME. Shallower slopes with a higher cutoff could help them blend better and pull the bass forward, while at the same time reducing the energy that the Audax drivers have to play.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Was they stage being pulled back with your last setup? If not, then you know it is the reasonance, which makes sense since you haven't done any sound deaden yet. Do some sweeps and find out what is resonating and try to fix it

But if you are looking at an 8, Audionutz just wrote that he was running the 2118's to 70Hz. But you may loose impact compared to those 18's.

My crossover right now is at 300Hz and the stage is solid up front even though my 2204's are in the rear quarters, but I am using the MS8 and I am not super critical.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Yeah, I'm not trying to run the mids any lower than 150hz. 200 sounds great to be honest. I will try some of Mark's suggestions and report back.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

mitchyz250f said:


> I would try to get rid of the resonance. But I you are looking at an 8, Audionutz just wrote that he was running the 2118's to 70Hz. But no 8's will have the impact at 150Hz of compared to those 18's.



I'm with this right here. ^^^

But... maybe Winslow can add to the Audax being crossed low, I think he said he's played them down to 175hz.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Yeah we're all on the same page guys. I wouldn't have gone to the trouble of using massive pro audio woofers to LPF them at 80hz  Just trying to find a happy balance. 200hz sounds awesome, and I still have insane midbass without the resonance I had at 250hz plus it stages a bit better. The Audax sound fine at 200 but I don't want to launch the through the door. You won't find any Yanni on my iPod and tons of Tool, Korn, Deftones and Godsmack, so I want to make sure the midrange are safe, which is why I was considering an 8" midrange with a bit lower Fs that were comfortable down to 150hz.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

No one mentioned Yanni...except you Mike. Interesting...

Winslow, aka Jason, aka thehatedguy did run his Audax's down to 175Hz. I think with a 48db or higher ox.

Maybe the PHL's will do what you need. They will get 12db louder at 200Hz before over excursion and 12db is alot.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I did run mine at 175 on a 48 dB slope...which is right above/around resonance if I remember correctly. Nowing then what I know now, I might would have bumped them up to 250 or so.

From what I was told, the PHL 1120s are a muscled up cousin of the Audax...the owner of PHL Phillippe Lesage designed the Audax speakers. I used the PHL 2540s too and liked them a lot too.

If you want to move to an 8, I would make it an all BMS system and use their 8S215...it new isn't much more than what the JBLs are going for used.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Ciare 8.50NDW - Ciare 8.50NDW is a 8 inch lightweight neodymium speaker for all mid-bass speaker systems- Ciare Speakers - Ciare 8.50NDW 8 inch lighweight neodymium speaker for bass guitar speaker systems. Ciare 8.50NDW 8 inch mid-bass speakers avail

Has an Fs of 75hz & a rising response on-axis. A little deep though... did you say doors or kicks?

Beyma 8MI100 8" midrange speaker. Beyma 8MI100 8" 500 watt midrange speaker for all pro high quality midrange applications.

B&C SPEAKERS


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I was told the Beyma 8G40 would make me forget ever hearing the 2118...dunno how true that is, but came from a realible home horn/HE guy.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

He's having issues with a wandering stage. Steep slopes like that are NOT what he wants, IMO. If you want to drag the stage forward, I'd go 2nd order filter on the mids (maybe low Q too?). The problem of course is that shallower slopes means more energy, so you have to bump up the xover point relative to a steep slope. I think this is an ok tradeoff.

I've never experimented with what the slope on the _woofers_ should be though. On the one hand, a steep slope will have less high freq energy and therefore probably less spatial information coming from the rear. But on the other hand, a shallow slope on the woofer will improve temporal correlations and might be easier to achieve phase coherence. I'd pick the latter.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> The stuff I used to put a windshield in my old car came from NAPA and was the same part number as the stuff you had pictured on your website at one point, both were the same Kent part number.


Why would I have a part number pictured on my Web site? You have to be confusing it with something else. The picture that's there now is the only one there's ever been. The product is manufactured for me using the same adhesive I use for the tiles. Kent has nothing to do with it.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Man, I'm fortunate to have made so many friends on here who are knowledgeable and willing to help... thanks for all the suggestions guys! 

Kevin, funny you linked those Beyma 8MI100. Those were in my top 3. 

Jason, I emailed Assistance Audio last week and never heard back. Any other BMS sources you know of? The 8s215/8n515 look promising. 

Mark and Mitch, thanks for the tuning ideas. I will give them a try this evening when I get back home.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

And Don, thanks again for the rope. I don't have an ounce of 'dynamat' in my truck and nobody believes me.  It is so quiet outside the truck and so solid inside. Nobody should do a blowthrough without rope.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

On paper the Beyma Beyma 8G40 looks more impressive than the 2118 AND is available as a 4 ohm version. The bad news is that it is 3.5" deep.

Beyma Speakers - Beyma 8G40 speaker - Beyma 8G40 500 watt 8" speaker for all bass applications. Beyma 8G40 bass speaker and other Beyma 8" speakers here.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

mikey7182 said:


> And Don, thanks again for the rope. I don't have an ounce of 'dynamat' in my truck and nobody believes me.  It is so quiet outside the truck and so solid inside. Nobody should do a blowthrough without rope.


Glad it's working for you. Guess you're my torture tester - squash it under a few hundred pounds in the AZ heat and see what happens 

Sorry to hijack the thread. I go to lot of trouble to get things just so and to have someone insist that I'm just reselling Dum Dum is annoying.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

mitchyz250f said:


> On paper the Beyma Beyma 8G40 looks more impressive than the 2118 AND is available as a 4 ohm version. The bad news is that it is 3.5" deep.
> 
> Beyma Speakers - Beyma 8G40 speaker - Beyma 8G40 500 watt 8" speaker for all bass applications. Beyma 8G40 bass speaker and other Beyma 8" speakers here.



The 8G40 does look pretty good, but the Le is high for a mid. I'm not sure if it would really matter at the bandwidth you'd be playing it at.

Mike, what are the other two in your top three?


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## random.precision (Jan 8, 2012)

fish said:


> The 8G40 does look pretty good, but the Le is high for a mid. I'm not sure if it would really matter at the bandwidth you'd be playing it at.


Should be good up to about 747 Hz with that inductance. That's the point where a 1st order roll-off begins due to the inductance.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

random.precision said:


> Should be good up to about 747 Hz with that inductance. That's the point where a 1st order roll-off begins due to the inductance.



I'm curious, what formula do you use to find out where inductance becomes a factor in any given speaker?


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## random.precision (Jan 8, 2012)

fish said:


> I'm curious, what formula do you use to find out where inductance becomes a factor in any given speaker?


Formula for Calculating a Speaker's Rolloff from Its Inductance:

f = frequency at which rolloff begins
Re = DC resistance
Le = inductance in H *

* To convert mH to H, use the formula: mH / 1000


f = Re / (2*Pi*Le) 




I believe I got it from a post by werewolf way way back.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Emailing Assistance Audio is futile...call them, they are much better answering the phone.

I never said Don was selling dum-dum...just that butyl rope could be bought from NAPA and is used to put windshields in.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

got a chance to listen to this baby this morning... nothing short of spectacular...

ooohhh man, do i miss hearing horns  It's been a while since Mike let go of the S10, and I haven't had a working stereo for god knows how long.... nonetheless its good to get back in and hear some lifelike jams for a change...

these subs are barely moving, and it's pressurizing the cabin nearly as much as the three 15's... it's ridiculous. i love me some good kick drum, and double bass, and this handles it with ease. 

the audax mids sound great, and for the initial tune that Mike had done in the last day or two, i'm pretty impressed with the set up... 

the midbass to midrange needed a bit of help, but lowering the crossover of the front mids to 200hz made a surprisingly large difference. Given some more tuning time, this should be a truck worth driving out to hear. 

it was a bummer though... didn't get to hear any Yanni.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Emailing Assistance Audio is futile...call them, they are much better answering the phone.
> 
> I never said Don was selling dum-dum...just that butyl rope could be bought from NAPA and is used to put windshields in.


Dum Dum is the old timey name for butyl windshield seal. You actually said I was selling the same thing, down to the part number - that's why I felt the need to respond. . I just checked NAPA and they have 2 brands. The Martin Senour version is almost 3 times what I charge, the 3M is almost 4.5 times as much. I wouldn't use mine to seal a windshield and they probably wouldn't suggest using theirs as a vibration damper. I think that closes the unintended sub-topic though - not the same thing, intended for a different use and many times the price.


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

Takes balls to cut a new truck like that. Nothing short of a great install like always

Sent from my C771


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah I could have sworn I saw a picture somewhere of the stuff I used to install windshields that said they got it from Don....looks like I mistaken. And the stuff Don sells is a good deal cheaper than the glass stuff. We called strip caulk dum-dum, but the other stuff was much more fun to cut and mess with than dum-dum.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah I could have sworn I saw a picture somewhere of the stuff I used to install windshields that said they got it from Don....looks like I mistaken. And the stuff Don sells is a good deal cheaper than the glass stuff. We called strip caulk dum-dum, but the other stuff was much more fun to cut and mess with than dum-dum.


Somebody on here was promoting another company by going after me and posted a picture from eBay of a windshield tape with a similar price point to mine. May have been what you're remembering. I'd expect the windshield stuff to formulated to a tighter tolerance and be more expensive because ...


... YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I still don't know if I trust the stuff, but many a car has had a windshield put in with it.

Sorry for the confusion Don, my apologies.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I sure liked the old build.. And now this one seems even better. I really really wish I could hear it.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Rudeboy said:


> Glad it's working for you. Guess you're my torture tester - squash it under a few hundred pounds in the AZ heat and see what happens
> 
> Sorry to hijack the thread. I go to lot of trouble to get things just so and to have someone insist that I'm just reselling Dum Dum is annoying.


NO worries at all. Glad you guys got it figured out  And yes, your rope is the only thing holding my enclosure down so we'll see how it does! Currently I can shake the truck back and forth with the enclosure, so its adhesive properties are definitely as impressive as its decoupling properties!



fish said:


> The 8G40 does look pretty good, but the Le is high for a mid. I'm not sure if it would really matter at the bandwidth you'd be playing it at.
> 
> Mike, what are the other two in your top three?


I'm leaning fairly heavily toward the BMS 8S215/8N515 just to keep it in the BMS family, unless something else really stands out in the crowd. The Beyma 8MI100 you linked was the other one that really caught my eye. Keep in mind that I'm really only looking for 150-1.5khz response (at most up top, currently crossed at 1khz) so any advantage of lower Fs or better response under that doesn't really matter in my application. The 8G40 looks nice as well, but I'm not going to be using it as a midbass, and the 4 ohm thing doesn't really matter to me as all these drivers are so efficient anyway. I'm really looking for more cone area than the PR170M0, while maintaining relatively similar efficiency with a bit lower frequency response. I wouldn't want something like the B&C 8NDL51 (way too laid back for me) or the 18Sound 8MB420. I want a midrange driver.

So, I'd say if I bought new midrange and went up to an 8" driver (don't see a reason to replace with another 6-7" driver unless it's the PHL), it's either the BMS 8S215 or Beyma 8MI100, unless someone else has another suggestion. Both have very similar sensitivity, similar response from 150-1khz, etc. The BMS is about 1/4" deeper, but I should still be able to make either of them fit. The Audax is about 3" deep and the Beyma and BMS are 3.25" and 3.6" respectively. 

That being said, I am going to try some of the tuning suggestions from Mark and others before making another purchase. The doors are relatively easy to change out and I can make some 8" MDF rings no problem, but I'd like to see what I can get out of these Audax as they really sound phenomenal. Aural sex, really.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

strakele said:


> I sure liked the old build.. And now this one seems even better. I really really wish I could hear it.


Fly on out man, and grab Mitch while you're at it! You guys can share a flight


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

treylittlefield said:


> Takes balls to cut a new truck like that. Nothing short of a great install like always
> 
> Sent from my C771


Balls of steel, as a friend recently mentioned.  I know it's shiny, but it's a 2004. Wait... I haven't even posted pics of the truck! Here it is the day I bought it in November:










Not a huge fan of the wheels, but the truck is very clean for a 2004. Only had 86k miles at the time. So naturally, I cut a hole through the bed and cab.


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

"Aural sex." Perfect phrase to describe the sound I'm looking for in my car within the limits of my skills and means! You, mattyjam and thehatedguy have all kept me inspired to stay on the dark side and pro audio equipment. Great work!


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

I may have missed it, but are you running the 18's mono or stereo, considering they're playing well into midbass frequencies?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

strakele said:


> I may have missed it, but are you running the 18's mono or stereo, considering they're playing well into midbass frequencies?


Currently they are receiving a stereo signal, but given that they are both firing through a single centralized hole, it's realistically more of a mono source. I talked with Vance about this and he said I should be fine up to 300hz or so. It stages surprisingly well.


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## hybridamp (Oct 10, 2006)

Nicely done! Makes me wish that I didn't need the bed of my Frontier and could do a port through also.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Out with the old, in with the new  I decided to scoop up a pair of BMS 8S215 midrange to replace the Audax in my doors. The build quality matches the woofers and compression drivers:




























And installed:










A direct A/B swap, there is a marked improvement in the lower midrange, especially with snares, guitar and male vocals. I worked out some resonance issues with the 18s and they are back up at 250hz. I am running a shallower HPF slope on the midrange and they blend much better than the Audax. Stage is improved as well. Getting it more dialed in each day. Definitely glad I stepped up to the BMS mids!


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

That's good news! Where'd you pick those up at?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

fish said:


> That's good news! Where'd you pick those up at?


I got them from Assistance Audio out of SLC, UT. Time to sell the Audax now I suppose.


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## beerdrnkr (Apr 18, 2007)

Good to see you working on a new setup again! One of these days ill make my way down there. I haven't had many opportunities to hear horns/pro audio systems.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Haha selling the Audax was your goal all along! You just talked them up first, like any good salesman.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

MarkZ said:


> Haha selling the Audax was your goal all along! You just talked them up first, like any good salesman.


I could sell Elton John an overpriced umbrella in a dick storm. 

I do really like the Audax, all things considered. I just don't think they were the right driver for this particular application. Front-mounted midbass probably would have blended better and I could have crossed them a bit higher than 250 where they really start to shine. I did take your advice and am running the 8S215 with a 250hz -12db/oct HPF and kept the LPF on the woofers at 250hz, -24db/oct. Lots more impact up front and they blend much better. Still playing with some EQ adjustments in that transition range but I think I made a good choice in the BMS mid. No complaints at all.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Mike can you go into a little more detail on the difference between the Audax, 2218 and the BMS? On the midbass where do the BMS take over. Is there a frequency where the Audax's are better. How do the BMS sound compared to the 2118? 

You are the only person in the entire world that has heard all three speakers...my world anyway.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Sniffles...those are some great looking speakers.

The Audax are some gooooood speakers.

All BMS system should be ridiculous...people are sleeping on the BMS drivers, they don't know how good they are.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

I've been wanting to run midbass speakers in the rear, but thought it would pull the sound back.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mitchyz250f said:


> Mike can you go into a little more detail on the difference between the Audax, 2218 and the BMS? On the midbass where do the BMS take over. Is there a frequency where the Audax's are better. How do the BMS sound compared to the 2118?
> 
> You are the only person in the entire world that has heard all three speakers...my world anyway.


Comparing drivers is always difficult, but I will do my best. Here is my current setup:

18N862: 

HPF: 25hz, -24db/oct
LPF: 250hz, -24db/oct

8S215: 

HPF: 250hz, -12db/oct
LPF: 1khz, -24db/oct

4550:

HPF: 1khz, -24db/oct
LPF: none



I haven't touched a pair of 2118 in about a year, but I used them fairly extensively for several years so I guess you could say I'm familiar with them. It's hard to make a direct comparison when installs are different, which is one reason I pulled the Audax out and dropped the BMS straight in. I didn't touch anything- levels, EQ, phase, nada. Just a straight swap. I wanted to get a feel for how they sounded with my previous tune, xover points, and EQ. Immediately, I noticed a significant gain in lower midrange output. The strum of a guitar is more pronounced. Lower male vocals are more concise and no longer get drowned out by two angry 18" woofers moving volumes of air into my truck that border on painful. The upper end of a drum and snares have more impact. The stage is more forward with a better, seamless blend between the subs and the mids. Honestly, between the two, I would say the Audax really starts to shine around ~500hz, and this isn't to say it's better than the BMS from that point on, but rather, that (in my application anyway) they didn't really play with much authority below that point. Maybe on axis would have been different, or if I'd fed them more power, but the BMS 8s have a pretty clear advantage in the lower midrange category. 

As far as comparing them to the 2118, I ran the JBLs down to 100hz for years, which I was perfectly content doing until someone introduced me to a pair of 2204H which I then ported and fed 150w a piece down to 80hz.  That was the end of 8" PA midbass for this guy. It's large format from here on out. To be honest, after having a pair of 2204H, W15GTi, 2118 and horns all less than 3' from me, I wouldn't waste my time on an install if it didn't at least match the impact I accomplished in that truck. It just wouldn't be fun for me. And this truck does that and then some.  If you can only get away with a 2-way front with horns, it's hard to beat the 2118H if that's all you have room for. I have not run the BMS 8S215 below 250hz, so I can't really comment on how they do as a midbass, but I will say they are very similar as a midrange to the 2118. Lots of snare, lots of snap, lots of impact, great vocals, etc. The Audax are incredibly impressive compared to both the BMS and the 2118, considering they are only a 7" mid with almost no xmax! I just think once you get below 400-500hz, that's where the larger radiating surface area and xmax have advantage over the PR170M0, especially during high output. In my humble opinion, of course.  And at least in this install. I tried to run them lower (all the way down to 200hz) and I think with a less offensive sub/midbass they probably would have been just fine, but they just had their asses handed to them with 500" of cone to try and seamlessly blend with. If I could have run the 18N862 up to 450-500hz without my stage getting sucked through the blowthrough, I don't think I would have bothered swapping drivers. 

Now, I would never be the guy who says:

1. Audax PR170M0
2. BMS 8S215
3. JBL 2118

and those are in no particular order, even as a joke. I honestly think drivers are application-specific to a large extent, and am content to have found what I think is the best combination of drivers for mine. I think each one has their strong suits, and while I have not found any flaws with the BMS 8 as of yet, everything is a compromise. I did have to trim away some metal on the door as I ran into some clearance issues with the BMS compared to the Audax which was a straight drop in. As Jason said, I think people either underestimate BMS or don't know where to buy them. I purchased all 6 of these BMS drivers BNIB- woofers from Vance, compression drivers from USSpeaker, and mids from Assistance Audio- and the build quality on them is phenomenal (and I've purchased quite a few pro drivers). There is a craftsmanship that goes into their gear with an attention to detail, and their specs are equally as impressive. All I need now is a "BMS" windshield banner, and while I usually don't like to advertise that I have a stereo, the fact that it won't say "Alpine" or "JL Audio" pretty much guarantees that nobody will have a ****ing clue what "BMS" means.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

[sarcasm] Dude? What are you saying? I thought JL Audio _was the best._ [/sarcasm]

Nice job. You do some pretty unique stuff and glad to see it works for you. I'd love to hear your setup someday, but I'm on the other side of the country.

Are you gonna change those wheels?

Jay


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Great post. I have always heard that the Audax's are best above 400 and shine above 500Hz. Your analysis fits in with what I have read exactly. Of course in car audio you are always fighting for space and you have to compromise. 

I think what is most impressive about your system is that it is a very simple 2-way that has INCREDABLE dynamics and sound. Car audio is always about compromises and you read about people crossing their subs at 45/60Hz all the time and in the front they are crossing to a 6.5”. There is not a 6.5” made that can go that low with good dynamics at volume. Really, anything below 200Hz with a 6.5” is unreachable with any type of dynamics. Disagree with me after you listen to a system with a 10”, 12” PA midbass first.

By using the proper sub (doesn’t have to be two 18’s… Mike you may have gone overboard…again) you can keep your system simple, keep your amp cost down, not worry about HO alternators, running 01 gauge wire, special batteries and have a truly great sounding and dynamic system. 

A JBL 2235 is a 15” ($300 on eBay) is a great woofer with 93db sensitivity that will play to 200-300Hz easily and could be mounted IB in most Sedans. In the doors you could mount any of the fine speakers we have been discussing. And although an Audax may not be the absolute best at 200Hz it does pretty well at 300Hz, will fit in most doors without too much surgery and is only $80 ea. With more effort you could get the right 8” to fit. Then you can use horns or a convention 1” tweeter like I am currently using with my Audax’s and pathetic 2204’s.

But the MOST amazing thing is that you have been selling your Audax’s for year and no one has bought them. What is wrong with you people?


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

mitchyz250f said:


> A JBL 2235 is a 15” ($300 on eBay) is a great woofer with 93db sensitivity that will play to 200-300Hz easily and could be mounted IB in most Sedans.


You've had success running a sub up to 300Hz from the trunk of a sedan?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Mine goes up to 200Hz from the trunk (err...backseat).


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> Mine goes up to 200Hz from the trunk (err...backseat).


Got a pic? 

Is there an opening to the trunk from the back seat or are they literally in the back seat?


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

When I say IB I mean with the sub firing through a ski pass through or on the rear deck. There can't be anything between the sub and the inside of the car except for a grill. If the sub is inside the trunk, seperated from the car interior, like most subs in sedans are, you will only hear it play to 100Hz or so. 

I have not run a sub that high because I never had a sub that could play that high when I had a full size sedan. When I had my Passat I had a 15” Adire Tempest on the rear deck but that sub will only play to 100Hz. If I had that car right now I could replace the Tempest with a 2235, Audax in the doors, Morel MT23 in the sails and have a great sounding car.

But to answer your original question I think that is what Mike just did. There is no difference between the pass through he cut and built and a ski pass through found in many full size sedans.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mitchyz250f said:


> I think what is most impressive about your system is that it is a very simple 2-way that has INCREDABLE dynamics and sound. Car audio is always about compromises and you read about people crossing their subs at 45/60Hz all the time and in the front they are crossing to a 6.5”. There is not a 6.5” made that can go that low with good dynamics at volume. Really, anything below 200Hz with a 6.5” is unreachable with any type of dynamics. Disagree with me after you listen to a system with a 10”, 12” PA midbass first.


When I was first introduced to horns and PA drivers about 4 years ago (shortly after I joined DIYMA), I was using the Pioneer TS-C720PRS with close to 200w per side. At the time, I thought they were incredible, and I suppose they are good in their own right. Then I climbed in ClinesSelect's Dodge Ram and heard the 2118s for the first time and promptly tore out my entire setup and ordered horns. The impact was that drastic between the 720 mid and the 2118... night and day difference. The difference between the 2118 and the 2204H was just as drastic, which is why I can never go back to a smaller midbass. Guys who think 'up front bass' equates to 'insanely low HPF on mids' are really missing out. You couldn't get away with running a sub up to 600hz, but why people think it's cool to run a pair of 6" mids down to 40-60hz is beyond me. Why use a Geo Metro to pull out a tree stump when a Dodge 3500 with a Cummins is much better suited for the job? 



> By using the proper sub (doesn’t have to be two 18’s… Mike you may have gone overboard…again) you can keep your system simple, keep your amp cost down, not worry about HO alternators, running 01 gauge wire, special batteries and have a truly great sounding and dynamic system.


I always go overboard. I've found that too much tends to be just the right amount.  In the S10, I had four amps- a pair of XR-4S, one running the horns and Audax, and the other bridged to the 2204H- then two XR-1S powering a pair of W15GTi. I had close to 2kw powering that setup. In this build, I wanted to see what I could achieve with as little power as possible. Given impedance, I would say I have about 500w total powering the current setup, and it is every bit as loud and impactful as the S10 was. I wouldn't say that I have huge gains in midbass over the 2204, or that they are pathetic at all! I loved those 12s. But I managed to combine the output from a pair of 15" subs and a pair of 12" midbass into a pair of 18" woofers, feed them a fraction of the power, and accomplish the same output with more articulation and precision. 




> But the MOST amazing thing is that you have been selling your Audax’s for year and no one has bought them. What is wrong with you people?


I am surprised as well. Although I did not advertise them heavily... hopefully someone snags them up and is able to enjoy them.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mitchyz250f said:


> But to answer your original question I think that is what Mike just did. There is no difference between the pass through he cut and built and a ski pass through found in many full size sedans.


No difference except that most guys can't fit 12cf in their trunk.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

rain27 said:


> Got a pic?
> 
> Is there an opening to the trunk from the back seat or are they literally in the back seat?


No pictures handy, but it's similar to mitchyz's description. 15" sub IB through the ski pass. It's like having a mono rear speaker. Most subs can extend up to a few hundred Hz before breakup. The biggest considerations are usually imaging issues, not FR. But there are ways to mitigate some of those problems. Mike found some success with that just by reducing the crossover slope (I have some ideas why that may have been the case).

As Mike described earlier, it really opens things up for you in terms of midrange selection. You can actually use a _midrange_ to handle midrange, rather than a woofer to handle midrange.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I'm like a proud poppa watching his kids ride their bikes without training wheels for the first time...I love you guys.

Those BMS 8s are so ridicilously low in distortion in the midrange...lower than anything that has been tested here on this site so far. The price is right on them for the performance too, really a "bang for your buck" in terms of performance and build quality. I am curious how they would do to 100 for a drop in replacement for the 2118 guys.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Every time I read this thread I want to go buy a cheap pickup and do a build like this. The type of impact and dynamics you guys are talking about is exactly what I want. Concert level. Sounds fun as hell. I WILL do it some day.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

strakele said:


> Every time I read this thread I want to go buy a cheap pickup and do a build like this. The type of impact and dynamics you guys are talking about is exactly what I want. Concert level. Sounds fun as hell. I WILL do it some day.


My old S10 is for sale if you want to drive it home from AZ.  I was at a concert a few weeks ago and went and stood right in front of the cabs on one side, and I can honestly say my truck matches or bests the impact and volume coming from those. It hurts so good.



thehatedguy said:


> I'm like a proud poppa watching his kids ride their bikes without training wheels for the first time...I love you guys.
> 
> Those BMS 8s are so ridicilously low in distortion in the midrange...lower than anything that has been tested here on this site so far. The price is right on them for the performance too, really a "bang for your buck" in terms of performance and build quality. I am curious how they would do to 100 for a drop in replacement for the 2118 guys.


My doors aren't reinforced or deadened much, but I will try them out down to 100hz tonight or tomorrow and see how they do. Hard to do a direct comparison between them and the 2118 as I don't have them here but I can at least get an idea of how they sound. I know with a -12db slope at 250 and some EQ boost from the 100-200 range, they are still playing with pretty good authority down into the midbass region.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

mikey7182 said:


> My old S10 is for sale if you want to drive it home from AZ.  I was at a concert a few weeks ago and went and stood right in front of the cabs on one side, and I can honestly say my truck matches or bests the impact and volume coming from those. It hurts so good.


Full system still installed in it?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Once you've experienced that level of impact and dynamics, it makes everything else....meh. Look at the impression the Speakerworks GN left on people 20 years a go.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

strakele said:


> Full system still installed in it?


Nah, it's all gutted. The bed and cab are already cut for the blowthrough though, and the doors are prepped for 8" mids. I have an extra uncut bed as well. It's a 2003 single cab short bed, 4cyl 5spd with only 58k original miles. 200A alternator, about $1,200 in Second Skin and Dynamat products. It's the quietest S10 I've ever ridden in.


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## strakele (Mar 2, 2009)

Haha I bet. How much you selling it for?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

strakele said:


> Haha I bet. How much you selling it for?


I have no idea. The plan lately was to weld the cab shut, put the new bed on, paint the truck and sell it as a normal pickup. They still seem to pull $4-6k in good shape and mine has almost no miles on it. Not sure what I'd ask for it as-is.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Once you've experienced that level of impact and dynamics, it makes everything else....meh. Look at the impression the Speakerworks GN left on people 20 years a go.


I still wish I'd been able to hear it. I think my next vehicle will be a larger coupe.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Jason- I tried these down to 100hz with a 4th order slope last night. They were buzzing my doors pretty good! Having not heard the 2118 in awhile it's hard to say for sure but I think with a properly deadened door they would do just fine in a 2 way with at least as much authority as the JBL. That being said, they went right back up to 250, -12db so my 18s could do what they were born to.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Mike, how high will the BMS play. For a non horn 2-way it would have to go to 2500 - 3000Hz. The 2118 does that no problem.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mitchyz250f said:


> Mike, how high will the BMS play. For a non horn 2-way it would have to go to 2500 - 3000Hz. The 2118 does that no problem.


Here's the data sheet with the response graph on it:

http://bmsspeakers.com/fileadmin/bm...ite/bms_8s215_2011-04_low_midrange_driver.pdf

That is in a closed box. Not sure how it would model in a leaky door or IB. I'm using them up to 1khz and they are solid. 

I'm going to do a few horn mods this weekend per the HOMster thread and see if I can improve the stage a bit, mostly out of curiosity since the mods are relatively cheap and easy.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

mikey7182 said:


> I'm going to do a few horn mods this weekend per the HOMster thread and see if I can improve the stage a bit, mostly out of curiosity since the mods are relatively cheap and easy.


i haven't done the roundover, so i'm curious to hear your thoughts on that...

when you do this, you should do a a/b/c method... and provide your subjective feedback please.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> i haven't done the roundover, so i'm curious to hear your thoughts on that...
> 
> when you do this, you should do a a/b/c method... and provide your subjective feedback please.


I will for sure. I just finished reading the 13 page HOMster thread on DIY audio by PB. My plan is to flatten EQ and do before and after listening with the PVC, foam, and both.


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## Diezel10 (Dec 22, 2010)

OH BROTHER WHERE ART THOU!?

I am scrapping all that was planned for my truck and I am going to follow your layout in a 06 Dodge Megacab....originally it was going to be horns and 2118h's in each door.....REWIND!....I am going your way...Thank you very much.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Diezel10 said:


> OH BROTHER WHERE ART THOU!?
> 
> I am scrapping all that was planned for my truck and I am going to follow your layout in a 06 Dodge Megacab....originally it was going to be horns and 2118h's in each door.....REWIND!....I am going your way...Thank you very much.


Glad to have inspired another lunatic like myself  Too bad you don't live closer... I'd help with the build. I drove an '06 3500 Cummins Mega Cab for work for a few years. Always thought that would be a fun truck to build up. Check out ClinesSelect Dodge Ram build log for good tips on horns in a Dodge. He also fit 8s in his front doors. Oh and you can still stick with 2118 and horns. Just run the 2118 as midrange and get some PA woofers instead of conventional car subwoofers. Then you won't need nearly as much amplification and can cross them high like I do.


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## Diezel10 (Dec 22, 2010)

Thank you!....and it would be cool if I were close

Yes, The Megacab is a 6 speed, sequential turbos...looks totally stock

Regarding your suggestion, stick with the 2118s I have full horns with BMS 4550s

and hunt for those BMS 18s??

Planned Amplification will be the ZED or Arc Audio

Processing Arc Audio PS8 or Alpines H800


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Diezel10 said:


> Thank you!....and it would be cool if I were close
> 
> Yes, The Megacab is a 6 speed, sequential turbos...looks totally stock
> 
> ...


You've got the 4550s too? Nice! Not a lot of guys run them from what I can tell. I have been really happy with them so far. And yeah, that's what I would do. Run the 2118 as a dedicated midrange down to 250hz or so, then find some pro audio woofers that will hammer. You don't have to get the ones I got per say, and will pay a pretty penny for them if you do. I think retail on them is $900/ea!  I got them for a steal on eBay but they are rare to come by. You want to find something with a decently low Fs, good excursion, and high efficiency. Hard to find all 3, but these BMS really are badass. 

If you want a Leviathan, This would be a sweet option as it has been modded to run power at 8 ohms, so you get [email protected]:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...s-modded-zed-leviathian-8-ohm-powerhouse.html

I'm not familiar with Arc's new processor, but I'm sure it'd be just fine. Any sort of 3-way processor is good as long as it has a fairly extensive EQ and you can run the sub channels as either full range or at least up to 250hz. Some processors you can't (Including the H701 I use) so I have the subs running off the rear channels of the processor.


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## Diezel10 (Dec 22, 2010)

Hmm... that is nice...my priority right now are the 18" drivers if everything goes according to plan I should have the means to purchase some "Insanity" 

Yes I pulled the trigger on the BMS I originally was going to purchase the Beyma CP385nds for horns...but after your review that was the end of that.

man...I keep eyeballin' that amp.....me likey

I will definitely research on the processors..if I don't need that much processing then I will utlize $$ towards those BMS drivers...but I also have the same issue that OCD urge on having to have all drivers BMS...

Since you've driven an 06 cummins, it's noisy so I will have to deaden..that will be the very 1st thing I will have to focus on after everything else has been purchased:laugh:


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## Riveted1 (Oct 23, 2008)

Hey Mikey, 

Thanks for bringing the truck over so I could hear it. You're right, it's every bit as good, if not better than the S10. Smooth yet very dynamic. You've lit the fire under me to get the 2204's and the GTI's installed. Maybe you should come over and help me accomplish that once finals are done.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Riveted1 said:


> Hey Mikey,
> 
> Thanks for bringing the truck over so I could hear it. You're right, it's every bit as good, if not better than the S10. Smooth yet very dynamic. You've lit the fire under me to get the 2204's and the GTI's installed. Maybe you should come over and help me accomplish that once finals are done.


Count me in! Maybe we can ask your crusty cunty neighbors if they'd be willing to pitch in toward your Dynamat...


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Oooh I smell a story.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

Looks really awesome. horns are super dynamic, but I could never find the right midrange\midbass with them due to their efficiency and what not. I’m glad you are there - but I still have a hard time understanding how the subs don’t pull the stage back. *shrug*


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

req said:


> Looks really awesome. horns are super dynamic, but I could never find the right midrange\midbass with them due to their efficiency and what not. I’m glad you are there - but I still have a hard time understanding how the subs don’t pull the stage back. *shrug*


There aren't really any strong directional cues in the freq range he's operating in. The wavelengths are still too long for ILDs to have an impact (I think... not having done the math, I don't know if they start getting small enough when you factor in the side window reflection). Attenuation from the ears isn't a reliable cue, and isn't going to operate in that part of the spectrum anyway. And ITDs give rise to the front/rear ambiguity problem, absent other cues. Tactile cues may have some influence (although I think they're usually overstated), but those are already present even at the lowest frequencies.

If you can get the sub and front speakers to blend well, which I think he improved by reducing the crossover slope on the mids, then I believe the weaker bass cues end up being dominated by the stronger midrange cues.


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## Riveted1 (Oct 23, 2008)

mikey7182 said:


> Count me in! Maybe we can ask your crusty cunty neighbors if they'd be willing to pitch in toward your Dynamat...


I apologized to my other neighbors. The couple across the street were laughing and the old lady next door said her windows were rattling, but she said she would let me know if it ever bothered her. I try to be respectful around here, but I guess the THT sub in my living room shakes her walls when I watch movies. OOPS! BTW, I was told the sound from YOUR truck was heard inside too, so it's not as quiet as we thought. :laugh:


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Riveted1 said:


> I apologized to my other neighbors. The couple across the street were laughing and the old lady next door said her windows were rattling, but she said she would let me know if it ever bothered her. I try to be respectful around here, but I guess the THT sub in my living room shakes her walls when I watch movies. OOPS! BTW, I was told the sound from YOUR truck was heard inside too, so it's not as quiet as we thought. :laugh:


you can definitely hear it inside the house, but it sounds much farther down the road. weird, though, as it really doesn't sound like much standing right by the outside of the truck.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> There aren't really any strong directional cues in the freq range he's operating in. The wavelengths are still too long for ILDs to have an impact (I think... not having done the math, I don't know if they start getting small enough when you factor in the side window reflection). Attenuation from the ears isn't a reliable cue, and isn't going to operate in that part of the spectrum anyway. And ITDs give rise to the front/rear ambiguity problem, absent other cues. Tactile cues may have some influence (although I think they're usually overstated), but those are already present even at the lowest frequencies.
> 
> If you can get the sub and front speakers to blend well, which I think he improved by reducing the crossover slope on the mids, then I believe the weaker bass cues end up being dominated by the stronger midrange cues.


with the audax mids, they definitely pulled... 

you can ask mike, i was one of the naysayers when he told me about the idea. truthfully, with my idea of what would be, and then the actual implementation, it sounds really really good. much better with the lower slope on the bms mids. does the stage pull back... ? yeah, but not nearly as much as you would think. i would say it is a mere few inches from the edge of the dash. not bad when you consider how far away the midbasses are.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Yeah, it's hard to explain. I listen at fairly liberal levels, and at least to me, in the driver's seat, it feels more like I'm immersed by the bottom octaves than some directional cue that they're far behind me. It hits you in the back and the chest at the same time. I do agree with Matt that the BMS 8s helped quite a bit, especially being able to run a 12db slope on the HPF. It brought a lot of drums up front and maintained the level of impact, if not enhanced it a bit. 

I also did the horns mods this past weekend. Matt and I did the foam in the throats, and cut some 1.5" PVC in half and attached it to the underside of the horn with the edge of the roundover against the front bottom lip of the horn. Cutting a strip out of the pipe and putting it all the way into the mouth of the horn looked too obtrusive, and the bottom edge of these minis isn't the same thickness across, so it made it kind of cumbersome to do it that way. I believe the way I have it is the way Patrick tried it initially (correct me if I'm wrong... there weren't pics of this in his HOMster thread). Subjectively, with the same tune as before, I lost a bit of output on the top end and it tamed the 1.5k-4k range quite a bit. I also gained 3-4" of depth, perceivably. The vocals don't seem so narrow but are still high and centered. I would definitely say the mods improved upon the horns, and for $2 and 10 minutes, everyone ought to at least try it.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The foam will reduce the top top stuff, but it can be EQed back in if you find yourself really missing it. The biggest difference is that 1-4k range IMO. The foam really calms that area down in a way no EQ can do. You really notice the difference with horns that have parallel or close to parallel walls.

I haven't played with the round overs but I understand how and why it should work.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

Id say it was a pretty substantial difference... the truck truly has some great depth now... i need to figure out how to fit the roundovers in my car


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The bigger the round over the better...but there comes a point where it is too large to fit in the car.

Horn termination is pretty important, this is why we have all stressed over the years to have the horns touching the dash either directly or build a filler panel to go between the horn and the dash. But that was only for one side of the horn...the bottom side is important too and the round over does this in the best compromised way. Ideally you would want the bottom of the horn to continue to the floor, but that is uh, impossible.


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## Riveted1 (Oct 23, 2008)

I haven't read through this thread, so I don't know what has already been covered, but here are my impressions of Mikey's newest build- (and as far as horn setups, I can only compare it to his S10 that I heard for a few minutes and my setup that leaves much to be desired) I hope you don't mind me doing this Mike!

The horns are 'more delicate' than my B&C DE500's. They aren't quite as in your face through the 2-4k range and seem to be a little brighter from 10k+. This could be the foam/roundover and/or EQ differences, or it could be the fact that in my vehicle, I have no real dash curvature to mate the horn to. I did enjoy the sound, especially on metal (we both listen to a lot of that!) and will be trying the foam/roundover here shortly.

His horns and mids blend very well. I don't think the BMS mids are quite as 'warm' as my 2818's, but they are in no way sterile. To me, they sound like they put out exactly what is put into them. No coloration at all. 

The midbass and sub bass are very clean, tight, crisp (whatever your preferred adjective is) and not bloated at all (like mine). In my defense, I have yet to install my 2204's for that nice midbass, and my current subs don't like to run up that high.

The front stage seemed to sit about 3/4 up the windshield and extend to at least the outside of the mirrors on each side. It also had a strong center presence like the drum kit was sitting around the point where the windshield meets meets the cowl. All of the instruments were clearly defined and there was no wandering of vocals. 

The one thing I did mention to him was that I felt the midbass/bass was pulled rearward. BUT we were listening to stuff that would not really be considered 'sound quality', and the bass levels were probably a bit elevated compared to what they would be using a true sound quality track. We are also talking about very high sound levels, not the levels most people listen to their Rebecca Pidgeon at.  I'm sure at more realistic levels, the issue doesn't even come into play. 

The one thing that amazed me is the lack of resonance that occurred in or out of the vehicle with no real sound deadening other than the factory stuff and isolating the subwoofer box. My ride is the exact opposite (40 year old vehicles tend to rattle/buzz a LOT.) 

It was a pleasure to listen to his system, and I hope to hear it again soon. Keep it up Mikey!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You guys are killing me...making me want to redo things.

Bastards.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> You guys are killing me...making me want to redo things.
> 
> Bastards.


nobody makes YOU want anything. YOU make you want something. With that being said, it sounds like your subconscious is telling you that you NEED to DO IT.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Shhhhh

Mike, I'll get back to you in that PM tomorrow.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> Shhhhh
> 
> Mike, I'll get back to you in that PM tomorrow.


Doooo it.  Sounds good...


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Thanks for the review, Austin. We'll have to get together again soon and work on getting your midbass in. I forgot how much I enjoyed the 2118! Those sound great in your kicks.


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## 2wheelie (Jul 30, 2009)

Pics of the horn mods?


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

sigh. i got rid of my horns a few months ago 

i could always get some pro audio 15's, i know i could fit 18's, but it would be a squeeze... as far as 8's, i can fit them in the doors. i did before - but they would be "in the doors off axis" lol - we all know what that means. i just dont like speakers that off axis playing so high - and that was my problem with my horns. if i had dedicated kicks for the horns for some pro audio 8's then i think i would have been okay, but i would have had to modify it way too much for practicality.

maybe in the future when i have a toy car to do this sort of install in this will be the route i will take. i have already been looking into some cool stuff before i read this thread chatting with the diyma team, but it will have to wait until i get a house and a garage


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I shot a quick vid on my Droid RAZR for those of you too far away to demo. It's nowhere near the same obviously, and most of the time I chuckle when someone takes a video of their "stereo" but this one turned out decent I think. It's Nirvana performing "My Girl/In The Pines" off their Unplugged DVD just before he died. Weird to see Dave Grohl so young! Anyway, thought it was unique with the video footage, and there's no bottom end in the song which makes the recording a bit better.

Nirvana "My Girl" Unplugged in my truck - YouTube


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

It looks like the larger BMS drivers are for large vented enclosures only. Are there any good options for smaller sealed enclosures when using large pro audio drivers for midbass?


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

I'm currently using 2 AV15's for subs and have the neo version of the mids the OP is using bms 8n515's in my kickpanels. Since the subs are in the trunk I can't crossover any higher than 100hz or so as output on the subs DIES after 120hz, I have a peak in my car that keeps me flat until there, then literally nothing.. Anyway the mids are exceptional. Hatedguy pointed them out to me a year or two ago to replace my xs69 mids... They are very dynamic and handle power pretty well. Only issue I have is I do wish I could cross them a tad higher as they do sound better if you cross them higher, but still dynamics are def there. When I get the chance I want to scale down to a single AV15 and do a 6th order bandpass to get the subs output directly into my car, should give me a much higher crossover point and hopefully get some more air movement on the low lows, right now my box is just too big for my trunk I think... You'd think tuned at 25hz I'd kill the lows, but my response really doent' pick up until about 35hz, then it responds as you'd expect 2 15's on nearly 2k to do.


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

What's going on with your system?


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## abdulwq (Aug 17, 2008)

nice job


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## Riveted1 (Oct 23, 2008)

Well, where's the updates? Stop slacking.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

I think he's done.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

I thought he sold it and had a Mini now.


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## Riveted1 (Oct 23, 2008)

Last time I talked to him, he had switched out amps. So there was more to this story.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

i'd say this is what happens when you become satisfied with what you have...  

this thing rocked... not much reason to change that, which would, effectively end a build log, no?


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

mattyjman said:


> i'd say this is what happens when you become satisfied with what you have...
> 
> this thing rocked... not much reason to change that, which would, effectively end a build log, no?



Agreed. From the way he described it, he sure seemed like it did everything he was striving for. I'm still jealous you got to hear it.

Maybe he'll get a new ride soon & get the itch again.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Who thought I bought a mini??  Never. Still have the truck and the install. I added a JBL BPX500.1 into the mix. I was initially going to replace the XR-4S that's bridged to the woofers with the BPX, but I ended up leaving both XR-4S in and adding the BPX instead. Now, I have one XR-4S bridged to the horns, one XR-4S bridged to the 8S215, and the BPX running mono to the 18s.  It's rather painful, if I do say so myself. Insane gains on the bottom end/midbass, obviously, and I just left the XR-4S in because it was easier than pulling everything out. Lots of headroom now. Nothing runs out of steam, and still very efficient overall, electrically speaking. I get a little dimming at very high volume so I may toss a second battery in, but it hasn't really been a problem thus far. I am very pleased with it, and located a major rattle this morning so that was good. Not much else to report except pure satisfaction.


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## wheelieking71 (Dec 20, 2006)

WOW! ive been gone for a while, and you'v been JAMMIN! looks killer man. hard to believe you topped the S-10, as that thing sounded bad-ass! i really like the simplicity of this set-up. way cool!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

wheelieking71 said:


> WOW! ive been gone for a while, and you'v been JAMMIN! looks killer man. hard to believe you topped the S-10, as that thing sounded bad-ass! i really like the simplicity of this set-up. way cool!


We'll have to get together for a listening session soon man! Are there any more local meets happening in the near future?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

random.precision said:


> Formula for Calculating a Speaker's Rolloff from Its Inductance:
> 
> f = frequency at which rolloff begins
> Re = DC resistance
> ...


Interesting post, thanks for the formula  

Kelvin


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Where is the new build? Got rid of the truck didn't he?


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## mikeSQL (Aug 8, 2014)

Hey Mike. My name is Mike and i would like to know your opinion on using the JBL 2118H as a midbass with a pair of ES Mini Bodies and drivers in a 2-way? Also, what would be the lowest crossover point you would use with the JBL 2118H with moderate to high listening levels? Thanks.


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