# 3ohm plate amp?



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I am having trouble finding a plate amp to do ~700-1000w @ 3ohms for a DIY project with my 12w7 but can't find one. Also, at the prices I'm seeing for the others, I'm halfway wondering if I just wouldn't be better off selling the w7 and picking up a pre-made option. Though, I really like the idea of doing my own.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

go huge box with the w7 and one of these and rock your world

http://instruments.search.ebay.com/power-amplifier_Pro-Audio_W0QQcatrefZC12QQsacatZ15197


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Any particular brand better than another?


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

also depends on your normal listening habits, if you dont need 130db at 20 hz to watch a movie a different sub/amp combo might be better.

my diyma 12 on a 150 watt plate amp is amazing.shakes the floor/house etc on a movie if i want it too.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Any particular brand better than another?


meh, all amps sound the same, if your not 'gigging' with it, im sure almost any amp will last years.

800-1000 real pro audio watts for $130 shipped  

forget a plate amp on a w7


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Okay. I don't know much about plate amps, so why would a plate amp not work? Do they simply have their limits due to size? I assume so.


If I were starting from scratch, I wouldn't buy a w7 for home theater, but since I've got it, I'm going to use it.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I agree with Luke, you can't go wrong, you are gonna need powa! The Crown XTi line allows for DSP on the amplifier so you don't need anything external, although I am unsure of the capabilities of the DSP, I remember one time I found it limiting for me but I don't remember in what way.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Maybe I should mention my goals.

I have this w7 from my car. Won't be using it again. I would lose too much if I sold it. So, I'm keeping it. Figured I'd use it for HT use with solid amp. Not sure if I'd NEED dsp or not b/c the receiver I plan to get will likely have all the dsp I need. Basically I just need something that puts out probably 800w as the w7 is rated for 750w. Would probably build a ported box, tuned to 18hz or so. Not sure on that, though.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Single 3 ohm coil? What's the config?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

That's it.

Single 3 ohm.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

That sucks ballz, there ain't many pro audio amps out there that are comfortable bridged into 3 ohms (1.5 ohm stable per channel) if any at all. So if you buy a 2 ch amp one side will be a backup


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

That's kind of why I'm wondering if I should forget the w7. 

Maybe pick up a couple IDmax 12's for inside the house.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

How much are you gonna lose selling it? I thought they held their resale value very well?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

The problem is that I bought mine authorized and paid the price to do so. The first reaction I get is "oh, I can get it on e-bay for that". See what I mean?..

I figure I'm going to take a solid hit of at least $400.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> The problem is that I bought mine authorized and paid the price to do so. The first reaction I get is "oh, I can get it on e-bay for that". See what I mean?..
> 
> I figure I'm going to take a solid hit of at least $400.


That's ****ing insane, you can buy a helluva woofer for 400 bucks.........


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Yea... I have learned. I've had the sub now for 2.5 years. It's a great sub, but wouldn't work IB so I pulled it out thinking I'd use it inside. Now I can't find an amp for it so I'll have to take a hit or just keep it around if I ever do another setup.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> Yea... I have learned. I've had the sub now for 2.5 years. It's a great sub, but wouldn't work IB so I pulled it out thinking I'd use it inside. Now I can't find an amp for it so I'll have to take a hit or just keep it around if I ever do another setup.


I'm CERTAIN there's something out there to make it fly, do you happen to know the impedance curve? As what's it's impedance in the passband you will be using it?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Modeled it up right quick. Impedence is showing a spike up to ~26ohms @ 45hz. Also a small spike up to 14ohms @ 16ohms. Otherwise, flat @ 3ohms.

Is this the answer you were looking for? 

Edit:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

What did you use to model it up and how does that compare to JL's impedance plot?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

chad said:


> What did you use to model it up and how does that compare to JL's impedance plot?


Picture above.

Bass Box Pro. No idea what JL's curve is. Can't find specs for that.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I'll see if I can get Manville in on this as I'm sure he's been asked this plenty of times.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

For 850 retail it should come with the lit to tell you how many winds are in the coil, how many MM's the lead wires are and the phone number of the person who assembled it, and when that person takes their daily poo!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

chad said:


> For 850 retail it should come with the lit to tell you how many winds are in the coil, how many MM's the lead wires are and the phone number of the person who assembled it, and when that person takes their daily poo!


lol.

Yea... I know.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

1900w @ 2 ohms. 

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/home_theater/products/bka1000-4a.htm


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Well look at that......


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## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

Man, 400 watts in home on that w7 will sound like 2k in car.. 1900 is overkill unless its a PA system..


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

its_bacon12 said:


> Man, 400 watts in home on that w7 will sound like 2k in car.. 1900 is overkill unless its a PA system..


ummmm, it's the other way around mang, no transfer function in the hizzouse, well there is but only from half and quarter space loading......


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## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

But it's much more controlled and will act MUCH more like predicted. In car temperature effects ALL sorts of variables with speakers effecting an amplifiers output and the speaker's response. Not to mention the road noise of a car.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/buttkicker-lfe-kit/page-1


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

its_bacon12 said:


> But it's much more controlled and will act MUCH more like predicted. In car temperature effects ALL sorts of variables with speakers effecting an amplifiers output and the speaker's response. Not to mention the road noise of a car.


I wouldn't even bother talking about temperature in relation to SPL. I consider it a non issue. If you've got more to go on about this, by all means offer it up.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

its_bacon12 said:


> But it's much more controlled and will act MUCH more like predicted. In car temperature effects ALL sorts of variables with speakers effecting an amplifiers output and the speaker's response. Not to mention the road noise of a car.


Barring road noise.....

are you saying that maybe a 2KW car amp is not really a 2KW amplifier when it's not on a bench, with a highly regualted supply, in lovely land?


Because if you are... then there are now 2 people that finally "get it" 



But honestly, it takes 1.5KW to do in my home using rather efficient speakers to do what 500W does in a car, darn near exactly in terms of level and FR.


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## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

Ok, maybe it's just me. To reach levels that I listen to in car, my volume is cranked, with 1200w rms on the sub (I understand it's not getting all that on music) and only about 100-200w rms in my room (again, not full power on music) and both sound just about as loud to me as the other. Maybe my speakers are super inefficient in car. 

As far as temperature effecting SPL, yes it does. If the t/s parameters change of a speaker due to temp, fluctuating FS can have the lower end of a sub (or woofer) bloated or more thinned out at the same power levels.


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## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

chad said:


> Barring road noise.....
> 
> are you saying that maybe a 2KW car amp is not really a 2KW amplifier when it's not on a bench, with a highly regualted supply, in lovely land?
> 
> ...


Yes. How often is that 2kw amp going to actually put out full power when you're playing it in your car, fluctuating voltage and fluctuating impedance? I've always taken car amps ratings as very generalized guidelines to match up to speakers. I hate it when people get in a fit about like 25% more power. Really? How much difference do you expect to hear from 1000w to 1250w amps?? (Keeping everything constant except higher output)


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## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

Sorry OP this is getting way off topic. Continue with your search of power.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

its_bacon12 said:


> Yes. How often is that 2kw amp going to actually put out full power when you're playing it in your car, fluctuating voltage and fluctuating impedance? I've always taken car amps ratings as very generalized guidelines to match up to speakers. I hate it when people get in a fit about like 25% more power. Really? How much difference do you expect to hear from 1000w to 1250w amps?? (Keeping everything constant except higher output)


Thank you!

It's a pet peeve of mine big time. Because I KNOW what kind of current at 120/240V it takes to make big power, granted averages are low but when the big guns roar it pulls the juice.

Hense why Pro audio AC distro's cost thousands of dollars, sometimes thousands to DIY!

Typical:

Kid "I have 5KW in my car"
Me "what do you feed it with"
Kid points to a die-hard and a stocky alt
Me " you gotta be ****ing kidding me"


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

Okay... to get good output out of a vented W7 as a home subwoofer you will need between 500-1000 watts. We use 1.5 kW on our f112 home subwoofer (which uses a modified 12W7), but it is a very small sealed enclosure and needs the power to overcome its inefficiency. Even 500W will get very nice, clean output as a home theater or music subwoofer.

As a theater sub, I'm slightly concerned about your proposed 20 Hz tuning frequency. For 99% of material this will be just fine, but there are a handful of very demanding soundtracks that are plumbing the depths of bass well into the 10 Hz region. This can cause distress to a vented sub tuned to 20 Hz if you don't apply some protection to it in the form of an infrasonic filter (basically a steep, 24dB/oct. high pass filter just below tuning). You could also play around with your box alignment and try to cheat the tuning a little lower. If you can get it down to 15 Hz, you will probably be safe. It might cost some box volume to keep it flat, but if that's acceptable you will have a pretty spectacular subwoofer with absolutely subterranean response.

Unlike a car, we don't get a lot of help from the room (although we do get some at very low frequencies) in a home setup. In a small room, you can expect some lift below 30 Hz and you should take that into account in your sub's response if you can. In a larger space (like an open plan house) the response will be much flatter so the sub needs to do all the work down low.

Placement of a subwoofer is also hypercritical in a home setup. The space is large enough for modal behavior to occur in the sub-bass range and the placement of the sub and the listening seat(s) is critical. Using multiple subs, distributed around the room, is really the only way to get smooth bass over a large seating area, but good results can be achieved for one or two seats with a single sub if you experiment with placement and use some judicious (CUT ONLY) equalization.

You're never going to get the visceral sub-bass you get in car audio, but a well-executed home subwoofer system can take any home speaker system to an entirely new level of performance and is a very worthwhile project.

Have fun.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Thank you, Manville.


When I do build this, the size won't be an issue so I can go larger. However, with most of the box programs I tinkered with, 20hz seemed to be the best response in terms of getting everything on an even keel. If I change size or lower tuning things quickly stray from that "flat" path. I could probably fix that via an EQ, and additionally there's no way to know what a room will do to that response in real life.

I asked over on avsforum and one guy said he's running 2kw to his in a 2.5cube enclosure. This seems like overkill to me, but maybe he's getting away with it thanks to the sealed box.

I hope you don't mind, but you'll probably get more questions from me in the future regarding this matter. I need to find an amp first off though. Do you possibly have any tips/secrets you could clue me in on about the setup I'm trying to achieve? Maybe a trade up to a Gotham just because you like me?  lol


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> But honestly, it takes 1.5KW to do in my home using rather efficient speakers to do what 500W does in a car, darn near exactly in terms of level and FR.


you must have a 3000sft space?

in my 1000sft room a single diyma 12 and 150 watts wangs hard and looooow.

i can shake the floor with 30% power!


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> Thank you!
> 
> It's a pet peeve of mine big time. Because I KNOW what kind of current at 120/240V it takes to make big power, granted averages are low but when the big guns roar it pulls the juice.
> 
> ...


but!!!!!!

most of us bass heads  only lean hard into the bass on a few tracks once in a while, most of the time we just bump moderately. so if a car amp is asked to put 900 clean rms into a snoop dog track (with sine waves for bass lines that come and go) i beleve ( i know) a quality well designed high power class D car amp on a strong electrical can satisfy.no way its gonna play a 25 hz tone for half an hour straight without damaging something.

but for the few seconds of killer sine waves we often ask them to do, they do

can a car amp do 1000wrms ? = yes.

for how long?= depends entirely on the electrical system.

afaik :blush:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

msmith said:


> Placement of a subwoofer is also hypercritical in a home setup. The space is large enough for modal behavior to occur in the sub-bass range and the placement of the sub and the listening seat(s) is critical. Using multiple subs, distributed around the room, is really the only way to get smooth bass over a large seating area, but good results can be achieved for one or two seats with a single sub if you experiment with placement and use some judicious (CUT ONLY) equalization.
> 
> Manville Smith
> JL Audio, Inc.



I agree on placement importance and cut only EQ, and I'm bringing some VERY large room expierience here whereas you have MUCH more small room expierience, so bear with me. 

I prefer packed subs, point source, because, spread out, in a large room there will be cancellations out on the "flanks" and a "power alley" effect down the middle. this even occurs in smaller venues with uneven room reflection. Center packed subs provide me 2 things, EXCELLENT coupling, it's like free POWA! We like that  It also provides smooth omindirectional LFE coverage that is very predictable in calculation.

Now, take this "stereo" /vs/ center packed approach and add more subs and you have introduced a whole new set of issues namely uneven coverage due to nodal issues.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> you must have a 3000sft space?
> 
> in my 1000sft room a single diyma 12 and 150 watts wangs hard and looooow.
> 
> i can shake the floor with 30% power!


You listen to music that has already had the **** squeezed out of it. I need some headroom when starting a master from live especially. 1KW to the sub, an Elecrovoice EVX180B and 250 to each Urei 809A. I really don't need that much to the sub though.

Chad


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> You listen to music that has already had the **** squeezed out of it. I need some headroom when starting a master from live especially. 1KW to the sub, an Elecrovoice EVX180B and 250 to each Urei 809A. I really don't need that much to the sub though.
> 
> Chad


i listen to multiple genres.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Doesn't mean that it has not had the **** squeezed out of it already


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## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

why not trade the w7 in for a new mag


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> Doesn't mean that it has not had the **** squeezed out of it already


doh!

:blush:


even my audionuts 'reference' cds?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> doh!
> 
> :blush:


The live stuff is so dynamic at times it's unlistenable to some, I need to start at live level and bring it to listenable dynamic level. And that does not necesarily mean squeezing the life out of it, I WILL if it's requested but I lke that baby to breathe! 


Getting it up there where it was mixed will show you things about the mix that may need corrected before making it "louder." That's why many rooms that are used for live mixing or mastering have incredible amounts of power for their size, it may not be loud on an average level wise, but it will get there,a dn you want to get there without any clippage on the. AVERAGE power is VERY low 

In these areas I pour the power on amp-wise, it's fairly cheap adnd I never want to worry about them clipping since they are tucked away. I can easily clip the mains amp doing this, BUT they are allowed to naturally roll off with no HPF, the sub comes in where they naturally taper, I have to be half ass being stupid to clip that amp.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> The live stuff is so dynamic at times it's unlistenable to some, I need to start at live level and bring it to listenable dynamic level. And that does not necesarily mean squeezing the life out of it, I WILL if it's requested but I lke that baby to breathe!
> 
> 
> Getting it up there where it was mixed will show you things about the mix that may need corrected before making it "louder." That's why many rooms that are used for live mixing or mastering have incredible amounts of power for their size, it may not be loud on an average level wise, but it will get there,a dn you want to get there without any clippage on the. AVERAGE power is VERY low
> ...


we need to remember that you cant hear much between 1700 and 8000hz tho right


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

It's a whole different world, and an honestly quieter one that many of you iPod users are expieriencing. 

You have to understand the dynamics of a live performance. Have you ever gone and seen a great symphony, up close, live, in a great room? 

That's the stuff, once you are at their quietest point, above the noise floor of your room, to hit what they do live you gotta have some power. It's the laws of physics, it has nothing to do with "loud" and everything about being able to get there on those split seconds when you need it.


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

chad said:


> I agree on placement importance and cut only EQ, and I'm bringing some VERY large room expierience here whereas you have MUCH more small room expierience, so bear with me.
> 
> I prefer packed subs, point source, because, spread out, in a large room there will be cancellations out on the "flanks" and a "power alley" effect down the middle. this even occurs in smaller venues with uneven room reflection. Center packed subs provide me 2 things, EXCELLENT coupling, it's like free POWA! We like that  It also provides smooth omindirectional LFE coverage that is very predictable in calculation.
> 
> Now, take this "stereo" /vs/ center packed approach and add more subs and you have introduced a whole new set of issues namely uneven coverage due to nodal issues.


Oh, boy... big can 'o' worms... 

The eggheads at Harman did some very involved research and published a very good whitepaper on subwoofer/small-room interaction. It can be accessed here: http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

Small rooms create really nasty problems as you can see in the paper.

Note: this DOES NOT APPLY TO CAR AUDIO unless your car is made by Winnebago.

That being said, we have experimented in our theater room with the PA stack approach you are alluding to in which we place multiple subwoofers (seven of our f112's in this case) across the front wall of a rectangular room with two of them displaced vertically as well. The results of this placement were quite spectacular (very smooth, very coherent). There are certainly many ways to slice a pickle when you have lots of subwoofers to play with.

Since most people usually only have one or two at best, the Harman paper provides some very useful information that really helps explain how to optimize performance.

In my own room, I use two of our f112 subs, each placed just outboard of my stereo speakers, one is in a corner the other about four feet from a corner. They are independently equalized via our onboard ARO eq. and I'm using their phase controls to align them to the mains at the crossover freq. (90 Hz) in my case). It works VERY well.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Hi Manville,

Thank You ! [for the White Paper ].


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

chad said:


> The Crown XTi line allows for DSP on the amplifier so you don't need anything external, although I am unsure of the capabilities of the DSP, I remember one time I found it limiting for me but I don't remember in what way.


It's pretty good, at least for sub duty. Six parametric bands, high and low shelf filters, configurable HP, LP, and subsonic filters, software that's probably as good as practical considering that it has to be run in Parallels rather than natively.

The value-for-money proposition of these things is quite high.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

chad said:


> You listen to music that has already had the **** squeezed out of it.


Permission to use as a sig?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Permission to use as a sig?


Have at it.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

msmith said:


> The eggheads at Harman did some very involved research and published a very good whitepaper on subwoofer/small-room interaction. It can be accessed here: http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf


The Welty paper is pretty good. The methodology does have some limits addressed by Geddes wrt 3D space. I've found Geddes' "constrained random" approach (supersub in a corner, two broader-band subwoofers placed randomly, so long as they're far apart from each other and the supersub, and at least one of them is higher than the room's centerline; also, sealed mains with sufficient cone area and volume displacement to be run full-range) to work very very well. That's how I got the response shown by the screen of my Velo SMS-1 under my name in my old room. 

[edit]Here's a bigger pic:








Note the position of the EQ sliders!.[/edit]

The new one, once all the parts in place, will have deeper response because my supersub is sealed rather than the relatively high-tuned (by current audio forum standards, at least) ported subs I used before.



msmith said:


> Note: this DOES NOT APPLY TO CAR AUDIO unless your car is made by Winnebago.


(thinking out loud) Actually, Manville, it just might, but just an octave and change higher because the smaller "room" has all of its nasties higher up...
Has anyone since the GN days experimented with placing midbasses around the listening area?


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

Over how large a seating area can you measure a similar response, Jay?


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

msmith said:


> Over how large a seating area can you measure a similar response, Jay?


In that room, the response was roughly similar over the entire couch and two of the three chairs around it.


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## its_bacon12 (Aug 16, 2007)

Impressive DS-21..


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/RoomModes/driving.html


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> In that room, the response was roughly similar over the entire couch and two of the three chairs around it.


Interesting... how large a room? Rectangular or irregularly shaped?


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I figured I would post this here instead of starting a new thread about plate amps....

I'm looking for about 500RMS at 4ohms in a plate amp. I'm looking currently at the Dayton HPSA500 on parts express. Anything else I should be eying?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-806


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

msmith said:


> Interesting... how large a room? Rectangular or irregularly shaped?


Dimensions, off the top of my head (which may be faulty) were perhaps 20 x 16 x 10, or maybe a bit smaller shorter and narrower than that. (I'm pretty confident on the ceiling height, if nothing else.) 

It was rectangular, but one wall had a large hole (slightly bigger than typical double doors, though I couldn't tell you exactly how big) that led to the kitchen. There was also a pretty big and imposing fireplace on the front wall.

While I didn't take a picture of the measured room response, my current room is friendlier in terms of room-modes, with a highly irregular shape. Quirky floorplan due to the octagonal column shape of the building. The common areas of the condo are basically one unified mass, with the main living/dining room basically tapering directly into a short hall leading to the bedrooms, tapering off into the foyer with a branch for a galley kitchen. I actually get superb primary-seat response (after running Audyssey MultEQ XT and then fiddling with Crown XTi2000's DSP a bit) and few truly objectionable hot/cold spots with just two subs at ground level: a sealed Ascendant Audio Avalanche 18 in the front right corner, Tannoy B475 in the rear right corner. Though next week I should be replacing the Ava18 with an Exodus Maelstrom-X. Look at that thing's Le/Re ratio!

You should experiment with the Geddes approach to subwoofer placement, explained supra. To achieve the above response, all I did was follow the methodology he outlined like a trained monkey in his Home Theater book and his postings on various audio fora as of ~2 years ago. No special skill on my part, beyond recognizing that someone smarter than me came up with something that might work well and thinking I should give it a go. 
It is a giant pain hoisting an off-the-peg sub up above the room centerline - yet another reason why I strongly support the DIY/bespoke approach to subwoofers: one can simply build/have built a sub that's tall, shallow or narrow, and fits unobtrusively in the room, rather than working around whatever form factor a manufacturer decides to provide - but the Geddes approach seems to provide better overall room response than the Welty approach IME. 
Dr. Geddes' approach should also offer enhanced extreme LF (comparatively degraded extreme LF being an acknowledged tradeoff per the Welty presentation for his four-midpoint recommended placement) by virtue of keeping one sub corner-loaded.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

ItalynStylion said:


> I figured I would post this here instead of starting a new thread about plate amps...


Oaudio.com has one, too. If it's cheaper, I'd go with that one.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

DS-21 said:


> Oaudio.com has one, too. If it's cheaper, I'd go with that one.


It is cheaper and has better specs. It will require the soldering of speaker wires but I prefer that anyways. Makes me feel like I have a safer connection. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I also like that the crossover settings aren't totally bypassed if I am using an LFE. More control = more better


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