# What are your steps to tuning for sq?



## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

I want to ask you, what is your method for tuning? Just curious, this is what I've been doing, but if you have any suggestions please let me know:

1a)Set general amp gains

1)Set crossovers in Helix DSP. I'm using general crossover points, Linkwitz Riley 12db @ 80/2500 mids (SI TM65) and 2500 tweeters (SI M25)

2)Eq drivers to match crossovers and a target db level in REW.

3)Match gain on drivers if needed from DSP

4)Eq overall response from all 4 speakers (I'm thinking of changing this to: eq pairs of tweeters, then pair of mids, then left side and right side separate, finally adjust overall response of the total system if needed)

4b)Adjust amp gain by ear so tweeters sound smooth and not in your face and mids aren't distorting

5)Set up time alignment and center the stage per traceries website and enter into DSP ms value. 

6)Here is where I'm unsure about setting up phase (0 or 180) As I understand it when using a LR 12db filter you have to flip phase on one speaker? Not sure

Any thoughts, comments or questions?


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Using Ta the only place you'll need to worry about phase is on your sub most the time.

Your mid to midbass may need it. This is how you tell. In phase there should be a rise in response at the crossover point. Out of phase will cause a dip. Both can be eqed. Not a big deal. 
If you look closely at the response sometimes you can use these dips or peaks to your advantage to smooth response before eq is applied. Either way it isn't a big deal. It doesn't kill your response like an out of phase sub will.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

assuming all gains are set on amp and dsp..

1) set crossovers. i use 24 db LR slopes

2) set TA by distance via tracerite website calculations

3) mute every driver except for one. EQ it to its appropriate curve accounting for crossover rolloff. once that one is done, do the opposite side driver (if you started with the tweeter, do the other sides tweeter). you want to match responses and levels to a T if possible

4) play those two together and do mono eq on them to their overall appropriate curve accounting for crossover rolloff

5) repeat step 3 and 4 on the rest of the drivers

6) measure sides. if you have a two way, measure a mid and tweeter. do this to verify levels and that you are getting no cancellation at the crossover. adjust levels as needed. i havent seen many times where ive needed to adjust phase

7) repeat step 6 with other side

8) sub integration. eq your sub to your appropriate curve accounting for crossover slope

9) measure your sub and left midbass at the same time. adjust levels and see if any eq work is needed between them

10) take a 20-30 minute break. come back and verify TA by ear. play pairs of drivers at a time. i do this with pink noise pops or just straight pink noise. you want everything to be center between the drivers. if you need adjustment, it shouldnt be by much. if you do need a ton of adjustment, you have something else going on (like something has polarity or phase reversed on something)

11) depending on how long that last process takes, you may need to take another break. Listen. listen for imaging cues, listen for issues like split vocals (an issue i was recently battling), listen to see if you can pick out anything wrong. adjust if needed

12) enjoy


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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> assuming all gains are set on amp and dsp..
> 
> 1) set crossovers. i use 24 db LR slopes
> 
> ...


Why would you choose a 24db filter instead of 12db, to protect drivers or better blend between the two?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Landshark77 said:


> Why would you choose a 24db filter instead of 12db, to protect drivers or better blend between the two?


24db linkwitz Riley filters in theory offer the best phase coherence and flattest response through the crossover 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

"6) measure sides. if you have a two way, measure a mid and tweeter. do this to verify levels and that you are getting no cancellation at the crossover. adjust levels as needed. i havent seen many times where ive needed to adjust phase"


I get a huge dip at 2500 hz at the crossover, how do i fix it?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Landshark77 said:


> "6) measure sides. if you have a two way, measure a mid and tweeter. do this to verify levels and that you are getting no cancellation at the crossover. adjust levels as needed. i havent seen many times where ive needed to adjust phase"
> 
> 
> I get a huge dip at 2500 hz at the crossover, how do i fix it?


what are your crossover slopes? are they 24db? is the dip there when the drivers are played individually? are the crossovers on the mid and tweeter both at 2500hz? 

if yes to all of these, try flipping phase of the tweeter(s). verify be ear also. see if they sound like one speaker playing versus 2 when you flip in and out of phase


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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> what are your crossover slopes? are they 24db? is the dip there when the drivers are played individually? are the crossovers on the mid and tweeter both at 2500hz?
> 
> if yes to all of these, try flipping phase of the tweeter(s). verify be ear also. see if they sound like one speaker playing versus 2 when you flip in and out of phase



Yes to all of the above

The FR is the same left side, right side and individual.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

What about just mid measured alone and tweeter measured alone?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Landshark77 said:


> I get a huge dip at 2500 hz at the crossover, how do i fix it?


Check and correct the timing between the mids and the tweeters.


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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> What about just mid measured alone and tweeter measured alone?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Here is a pic of just left side mid, tweeter and left overall.

Right side mid, tweeter and right overall.

Am I to understand that at the crossover point (2500hz) the response should be flat, no dip, or if there is one minimal?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

They are out of phase...that is a reverse null.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> They are out of phase...that is a reverse null.


Looks like it. I didn't think it would be that drastic at that high of frequency though. Try flipping phase of the tweeters

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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> Looks like it. I didn't think it would be that drastic at that high of frequency though. Try flipping phase of the tweeters
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Just flip phase on the tweeters to 180 on the dsp?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeap


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Landshark77 said:


> Just flip phase on the tweeters to 180 on the dsp?


Not to contradict others, but I'm not a big fan of flipping polarity as it is a band aid, specially when you have a full blown dsp. Fix the problem by using TA to get the timing right between the mids and tweets. Flipping polarity might bring the drivers in phase at the Xover but that driver will be out of phase with the other drivers throughout it's pass band.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Not to contradict others, but I'm not a big fan of flipping polarity as it is a band aid, specially when you have a full blown dsp. Fix the problem by using TA to get the timing right between the mids and tweets. Flipping polarity might bring the drivers in phase at the Xover but that driver will be out of phase with the other drivers throughout it's pass band.


Yes I know, but this leads me to believe maybe he just wired them to? It's also not unheard of to have markings mixed up on drivers.

Landshark, you should also use your ears for this. When flipping in and out of phase, the sound should switch from sounding like 2 speakers, to sounding like one, so long as this is the issue

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Am I the only one who checks phase in the beginning?

That happens (for me) right after level adjustments and XO setting.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> Am I the only one who checks phase in the beginning?
> 
> That happens (for me) right after level adjustments and XO setting.


Depends. Are you checking phase or polarity?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## strohw (Jan 27, 2016)

This is my SQ tuning kit. Contains everything I need to make a car sound great.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Am I the only one who checks phase in the beginning?
> 
> That happens (for me) right after level adjustments and XO setting.


I too set TA before eq.


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## strohw (Jan 27, 2016)

I agree with Skizer in that I would immediately believe this is a polarity issue with the graph provided.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

sqnut said:


> thehatedguy said:
> 
> 
> > Am I the only one who checks phase in the beginning?
> ...


I do rough per driver eq before ta, ta, system contour. I do phase adjustments during the ta process when I'm looking for nulls. That initial rough eq makes things a whole lot easier especially if there are any real issues. You know your driver's are playing pretty smooth and any serious peaks or dips are phase or time issues and not response issues.
Just seems to makes sense to me.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Drop11 said:


> I do rough per driver eq before ta, ta, system contour. I do phase adjustments during the ta process when I'm looking for nulls. That initial rough eq makes things a whole lot easier especially if there are any real issues. You know your driver's are playing pretty smooth and any serious peaks or dips are phase or time issues and not response issues.
> Just seems to makes sense to me.


TA before eq is more a habit than anything else. The fact is it doesn't matter what you do first, cause you're going to go back and forth between them a bit before things settle down.


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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

I tried messing with the time alignment and flipping polarity on the tweeters and mids, but nothing changed the null on either the left or right side.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

what tweeters and mids do you have again? maybe you can try adjusting the crossovers. lower them if your tweeters can handle them. maybe try changing the slopes to 12db. or moving them to 3000 if the tweeters cant play lower than 2500


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

sqnut said:


> Drop11 said:
> 
> 
> > I do rough per driver eq before ta, ta, system contour. I do phase adjustments during the ta process when I'm looking for nulls. That initial rough eq makes things a whole lot easier especially if there are any real issues. You know your driver's are playing pretty smooth and any serious peaks or dips are phase or time issues and not response issues.
> ...


Ain't that the truth.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

i really dont see a need to be going back and forth between eq and ta. set by distance first. do all eq'ing, fine tune ta by ear (which shouldnt be off by much), and done


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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> what tweeters and mids do you have again? maybe you can try adjusting the crossovers. lower them if your tweeters can handle them. maybe try changing the slopes to 12db. or moving them to 3000 if the tweeters cant play lower than 2500


Stereo Integrity TM65 mids and M25 Tweeters, I think I'll see if another crossover will work better. Back to the drawing board.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

can you explain what this means :cool Eq drivers to match crossovers and a target db level


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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> can you explain what this means :cool Eq drivers to match crossovers and a target db level


On REW when you are using the EQ you have a target db level to match the drivers to


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

ok thank you for clearing that up,much appreciated


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Landshark77 said:


> Stereo Integrity TM65 mids and M25 Tweeters, I think I'll see if another crossover will work better. Back to the drawing board.


To be honest, I'd expect this response with this setup. I don't think these tweeters play low enough to mate to these drivers (which roll off and break up pretty early). This is just going off memory, as I haven't looked at their stuff in a while but I know they're better used in a 3 way. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> To be honest, I'd expect this response with this setup. I don't think these tweeters play low enough to mate to these drivers (which roll off and break up pretty early). This is just going off memory, as I haven't looked at their stuff in a while but I know they're better used in a 3 way.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



I think I agree with you. I guess their is a big dip there because there just isn't anything to fill it with, haha. I ordered a pair of his second gen TM65, which are supposed to have better extension into the higher frequencies. 

I think for now a 12db slope will help smooth it out. Granted my setup sounds very good, but me being me always has to fuss with it until i'm 1000% satisfied.

I'm going to run through all of your steps and change the crossover a bit with a 12db slope and see where I'm at after that.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Don't forget to try raising or lowering them with the same 24 slope (find out from nick the lowest acceptable crossover point)

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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> i really dont see a need to be going back and forth between eq and ta. set by distance first. do all eq'ing, fine tune ta by ear (which shouldnt be off by much), and done


Ah!! If only it were that simple. I'm not talking weeks of going back and forth, but yeah a couple of sessions to get the TA just right, to the point where you know that the rest of the story is in correcting the response. 

The point being, that the response has to be sorta in the ball park before you can sign off on the TA (I'm talking about everything by ear). So yes, the measured distances will get you in the ballpark, and you can then use the PN to tweak by ear, BUT that final bit of tweaking should be with music and by listening to vocals and overall dynamics. It is here that the response needs to be sorta in the ballpark, so that one doesn't confuse the slight honk and nasal vocals from excess 500-800, with stretched vocals that result from mistimed drivers. 

Our ears are extremely sensitive to timing differences and a difference of 0.02ms between the woofer and mid/tweet can be the difference between clean vocals and tons of dynamics or slightly stretched vocals and muted dynamics. Another benefit of correct TA both L&R and up and down, is a sharp and vivid image. 

Of course all this is only relevant if someone is OCD like me, for the vast majority of sane people, measure, calculate, enter. Fill it, shut it, forget it.


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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

Do you guys use this method for centering stage? After all tuning has been done, play pink noise at certain frequencies to center the stage i.e.: stage is too far right at 200hz, lower right side db in the 200hz band, too far left in 1000hz range lower left band. I saw this method on Kyle Ragsdale tuning videos on youtube and was wondering if it was worth the time and effort needed to center the stage perfectly.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Landshark77 said:


> Do you guys use this method for centering stage? After all tuning has been done, play pink noise at certain frequencies to center the stage i.e.: stage is too far right at 200hz, lower right side db in the 200hz band, too far left in 1000hz range lower left band. I saw this method on Kyle Ragsdale tuning videos on youtube and was wondering if it was worth the time and effort needed to center the stage perfectly.


i verify by doing this after i go through all eq and time alignment. cant use tones though. gotta use 1/3rd octave limited pink noise


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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> i verify by doing this after i go through all eq and time alignment. cant use tones though. gotta use 1/3rd octave limited pink noise


Where do I find 1/3 octave limited pink noise? Can I generate a Wav file from REW?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Landshark77 said:


> Where do I find 1/3 octave limited pink noise? Can I generate a Wav file from REW?


idk, but pm me your email. i can send em your way


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## strohw (Jan 27, 2016)

Bring the crossover down to 1900-2000 24db. The tweeters can play that low just fine.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

strohw said:


> Bring the crossover down to 1900-2000 24db. The tweeters can play that low just fine.


with an FS of around 1400hz, i certainly wouldnt


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## Majik (Jun 22, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> idk, but pm me your email. i can send em your way


I would like these files too. PM sent.


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## strohw (Jan 27, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> with an FS of around 1400hz, i certainly wouldnt


Why?
You have a driver with a spec of 1300 FS and a xbl^2 motor structure. A 1.5x FS 24db crossover will be perfectly fine. I also do believe they were never tested again after the rear was sealed better so the FS may be lower. If you read through the thread you will see he has no problem with a [email protected] crossover or even lower.

I tested my set at 1.8khz/24db and had no issues even at uncomfortable volume levels. I'm not recommending that low though.


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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

Nick got back to me and suggested 2500 24db slope. I played around with setting the crossover on the mid at different points in the 2000-3000hz range, but the region around 2300hz doesn't really budge. So I'm thinking this could be a function of the car. I even experimented with boosting that area and all it did was boost frequencies close to it. 
If my new TM65II mid doesn't fix it, than I guess the car it is...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Landshark77 said:


> Nick got back to me and suggested 2500 24db slope. I played around with setting the crossover on the mid at different points in the 2000-3000hz range, but the region around 2300hz doesn't really budge. So I'm thinking this could be a function of the car. I even experimented with boosting that area and all it did was boost frequencies close to it.
> If my new TM65II mid doesn't fix it, than I guess the car it is...


well if its the car causing a modal dip, it should read that dip only on the mid(s) or only on the tweeters. not both. seems like some sort of phase issue at the crossover. aside from that, how is everything else working out?


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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

SkizeR said:


> well if its the car causing a modal dip, it should read that dip only on the mid(s) or only on the tweeters. not both. seems like some sort of phase issue at the crossover. aside from that, how is everything else working out?



Seems the dip does show pretty much on the mid. The tweeter crossover point will move around as expected from 2000-3000, but the mid just stays at 2300 and won't move at all when using various crossovers above that frequency. Even If I set the crossover at 3500 it won't move from that 2300hz spot much.

In this case would you just use a 2300hz 24db crossover then?


Everything sounds good though, working on centering up my stage now with those test tones.


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## strohw (Jan 27, 2016)

Landshark77 said:


> Seems the dip does show pretty much on the mid. The tweeter crossover point will move around as expected from 2000-3000, but the mid just stays at 2300 and won't move at all when using various crossovers above that frequency. Even If I set the crossover at 3500 it won't move from that 2300hz spot much.
> 
> In this case would you just use a 2300hz 24db crossover then?
> 
> ...


That mid starts rolling off around there. It actually has a breakup centered near there. It is recommended to crossover that mid more around 1.5-1.8khz. It's one of the reasons I suggested the 2.0khz crossover in my other post.


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## Landshark77 (Jan 1, 2016)

strohw said:


> That mid starts rolling off around there. It actually has a breakup centered near there. It is recommended to crossover that mid more around 1.5-1.8khz. It's one of the reasons I suggested the 2.0khz crossover in my other post.


ok is that what that 2300hz spot is then? 
If I crossed over my mid/tweeters that low (2000hz) my concern would be the "mental and physical well being" of the tweeter haha (I like my music relatively loud).


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Landshark77 said:


> Seems the dip does show pretty much on the mid. The tweeter crossover point will move around as expected from 2000-3000, but the mid just stays at 2300 and won't move at all when using various crossovers above that frequency. Even If I set the crossover at 3500 it won't move from that 2300hz spot much.
> 
> In this case would you just use a 2300hz 24db crossover then?
> 
> ...


i would be exploring my options for drivers better suited for two way. im not a fan of crossing a tweeter on its bottom end limits, and these mids just arent made for two way. hell, i wouldnt even say these tweeters are made well for two way.


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## will. (Jul 7, 2015)

Between the various EQ types, what are each of your opinions on the various types which are most useful and in which order? ie. 30band 1/3 or parametric or both?

Reason I ask is I am in the process of setting up an old school system. I have an arsenal of good quality analog components and deciding which ones I should use but because obviously mounting space being an issue, I will need to be selective.

My immediate instinct would be to use a pair of left/right 30 bands on my main 2channel signal with possibly a stereo parametric right after to make any surgical corrections and then possibly apply more post crossover for sub and/or midbass if needed. Any thoughts?

I have the following available for potential use:
2 x Audiocontrol EQT 30 Band EQ's
1 x PG EQ230 Stereo 30 Band EQ
1 x Alpine 3402? (7 Band Stereo Parametric EQ)
2 x Clarion PEQ2040 (4 Band Stereo Parametric EQ)


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## strohw (Jan 27, 2016)

Landshark77 said:


> ok is that what that 2300hz spot is then?
> If I crossed over my mid/tweeters that low (2000hz) my concern would be the "mental and physical well being" of the tweeter haha (I like my music relatively loud).


If you feel uncomfortable then you'll need to do what Skizer suggested unless you're going to wait to see if the tm65 II fixes your problem. If you don't want to wait then you'll either need a more robust tweeter like a dayton rs28, sb 29 or peerless hds. Or you'll have to pick a mid that can better mate with the m25 which I can't offer suggestions on.


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## strohw (Jan 27, 2016)

will. said:


> Between the various EQ types, what are each of your opinions on the various types which are most useful and in which order? ie. 30band 1/3 or parametric or both?
> 
> Reason I ask is I am in the process of setting up an old school system. I have an arsenal of good quality analog components and deciding which ones I should use but because obviously mounting space being an issue, I will need to be selective.
> 
> ...


Maybe make everything old school except for a modern dsp? =]

If no then the 31 band EQ you listed are much better than the PEQ models you listed.


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## will. (Jul 7, 2015)

strohw said:


> Maybe make everything old school except for a modern dsp? =]
> 
> If no then the 31 band EQ you listed are much better than the PEQ models you listed.


Why not use both? You can get pretty surginal with a Q of up to 10 on a parametric?


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## strohw (Jan 27, 2016)

It's just a bit strange. You mentioned space being an issue but then you want to run this big honker after your 31 band eq just to get a couple extra channels of PEQ. The Alpine isn't the most flexible unit either.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Have you considered using a lower xover point with a shallow slope on the mid if that really is where your problem is.


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