# Car-computer phase 1 discussion



## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

Let's start off with power supplies and the compatible motherboards.

I asked MarkZ on another thread and he recommends the M1-Atx
found here http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/sc.8/category.13/it.A/id.356/.f

it recommends not to run with higher power CPUs, but to stick with smaller mini-ITX with low power consumption CPUs.

I don't mind running a larger board actually, as they're cheaper and you get power processing power. How would a typical AMD Athlon setup goes with the power supply?


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

I'm sure there's a motherboard and power-supply in here. My guess is that the total package would be cheaper than DIY, too. Especially if you value your time.

If you must, you could even lobotomize it, i.e., replace the beautiful and elegant preinstalled OS with an obsolete clunker.


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## FocusInCali (Jul 3, 2005)

Macmall offers the new Macs loaded with Windozzzze, if you need that....
http://www.macmall.com/macmall/families/macmini_intel/


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

FocusInCali said:



> Macmall offers the new Macs loaded with Windozzzze, if you need that....
> http://www.macmall.com/macmall/families/macmini_intel/


That's like putting Louisiana hot sauce on prime rib 

Chad


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

I researched a while back on this, and to do all of your signal processing in real time (TA/x-overs/equalization/DRC), you'd need a megamachine......until the new AMD mobo's come out later this year that will allow you to run dual athlon X2's (quad core machine), and a piece of software optimized to use it, I don't see how it would be feasible.......

I wanted to use a carputer b/c the possibilities are pretty much limitless with regards to SQ and storage.......


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

maybe conside the new amd x2 am2 "energy effiicient" version

they come out in about a month or so


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

yea, basically, the only option to do what I wanted to do right now is to use dual opteron 275's (server processors that have a dual mobo available), which also happen to come in an energy effificent version also.......but they run $600 a piece for the processors.........


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## Dougie085 (May 2, 2006)

What exactly do you want to do with the computer? I cant imagine anything requireing so much as 2 opterons. Thats A LOT of processing power. There is a psu on that sight the M2 that says it'll work for P4,Celeron, PM, AMD's. You shouldnt really need anything more then like an AMD Dual Core or an Intel CoreDuo would be nice and its a mobile cpu so doesnt use much power.


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

you'd need that kind of processing power to do what I just mentioned all in real time..........especially as the number of drivers increases, I might be able to run a 2 way+sub off of a regular computer, but if I want to run a 3-way plus rear speakers and subs, all from the computer, and do signal proccessing on each channel, it requires a massive amount of processing power. 

With 64 bit technology, it will get much better, but as of today, these tasks would bring all single cores, and many dual cores processors to their knees........I suspect by next year, what I want to do will be affordable due to console software that takes advantage of both 64bit and multicore processing.....


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

That's why I let dedicated Behringer DCX's do the processing for me. And it's all adjustable from the computer due to the serial connection.

As for the original question, I don't know much about good power supplies for full size ATX mobos. Basically, everything I know about carputer setups comes from my own (sometimes failed) attempts, and I haven't run into a case where I need mega-processing capabilities that required large boards or power supplies.

But I've done quite a few of these over the years, even before the mp3 format got as popular as it is today. I remember shelling out big cash for dual hard drives that could hold a somewhat decent number of wav format files and running it all in an AT (not ATX) form factor case with a 12v computer power supply (which I still have, by the way).  I did a few similar types of systems for people later on, back when I was making money doing this sort of thing. None of the local shops were equipped to even do it, so it was just me and word of mouth. 

Later on, I did a couple laptops, which were easier to power and portable for those so inclined. Install a docking station in an accessible place and there you have it. Remote controls did the work, they ran into AUX INs of head units, and mp3 display information could be sent out to a character LCD connected via the parallel or serial port. There was even a program out that allowed you to basically connect a switching circuit up to the parallel ports which allowed for greater control of winamp (this is before touchscreens came down in price). Here's one of my old installations from about 6 years ago which was in my own car, which used one of those types of connections:










Of course, now stuff like that is a bit outdated with more affordable and easier to get touchscreens.


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

yea, using a Behringer through the carputer takes a load of work off, but then how do you do DRC?


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## crash813 (Aug 23, 2005)

I would suggest sticking with the Opus, probably the 150 as that should be enough to power most things.

I had the M2-atx and found it to be quite flakly. There's been quite a bit of it reported on it over at mp3car.com. It doesn't like alot of mb's, some timing anomallies, and some just couldn't get it to work. Most who had problems went to an Opus with no issues. For mine, when it tried to turn on, the signal to power the mb and then to turn on the computer were too close together. So I had to install a switch to basically turn the computer on twice. Nothing adjustable on the psu to correct it. It was a PITA.


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

Yea, and I've heard they devised a way to run two Opus together to get twice the wattage if you need the extra juice, you can look it up on mp3car.com also.......


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

so the m1-atx doesn't work with bigger motherboards? and opus does?

I really don't need a whole ton of processing power, 
A local Fry's has the pentium 4 processor 506 with the ECS p4m800pro-M motherboard on sale for $90, would that go with the m1-atx?


I've thought about the apple mini, but my biggest concern is its compatibility with the soundcards that I want. Does it have optical output?


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

stay away from pentium 4's, they're power hogs......


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

The new Mac Mini has optical output. The headphone jack serves as an optical transmitter. If you haven't already, check out www.mp3car.com. The MacMini as well as other topics have been discussed in depth. You can probably find most of your answers by searching (no account signup required).

I did some research into this a while back. I wanted a carputer that could run 4-way active and connect directly to my amps. There was some EQ software out there (don't have the links) that might have worked but there was nothing in the way of crossover software. The soundcards that had sufficient outputs were all PC based so the MacMini wasn't going to work. I was fine with that but the key was finding crossover software.

I also looked into the optical out idea. There is a thread over at mp3car that talks about what optical input amps are available. Optical out elminiates the noise potential you get with most sound cards. There were a few amps available but nothing stellar. The other idea of course is to use something like the Alpine processors that have optical input (H701 or something) and a decent EQ and crossover. This seemed like the best route to take but the problem is that I didn't have room for a headunit (or standalone controller) and a screen in my dash.

I just kind of gave up on the idea. An all-in-one carputer sounded cool but it just wasn't going to happen.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

xencloud said:


> I researched a while back on this, and to do all of your signal processing in real time (TA/x-overs/equalization/DRC), you'd need a megamachine......until the new AMD mobo's come out later this year that will allow you to run dual athlon X2's (quad core machine), and a piece of software optimized to use it, I don't see how it would be feasible.......



Isn't the Core Duo Intel's (as found on the mini) latest-greatest processor?

Also, as previously mentioned the Mac mini will do clunker OS's too, thanks to Boot Camp. And based on my experience running Windows on my 1.83GHz Intel iMac - I need Windows to run SAS for my research, and unfortunately the macros for Unibox don't work right in Excel for Mac - do it faster than any dedicated PC I've ever used.


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

Yes, it is, and it still isn't powerful enough to process more than 4 channels (probably) with the current software. One guy had an athlon FX (really fast single core), and it was brought to it's knees running a simple 2-way HT setup using this method. 

On the console software I was looking at, to accomplish everything I wanted to do, each channel of audio had about 5-6 programs running on it to do all of the adjustments and signal processing, so for a 3 way system, you are talking about 30 small programs running simultaneously, which equates to a sizable amount of processing......and we haven't even done the subs or rear channels yet......

I think the hardware is VERY close, a quad core running a 64bit OS with a 64 bit console software would definitely be able to handle many channels. Heck, even a high end dual core might be able to do what I was looking to do, but NOT until the software/OS is written to utilize both cores. Right now, that hasn't happened yet.........hard to explain but software needs to catch up right now........


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

xencloud said:


> Yes, it is, and it still isn't powerful enough to process more than 4 channels (probably) with the current software. One guy had an athlon FX (really fast single core), and it was brought to it's knees running a simple 2-way HT setup using this method.


Wow, I didn't realize that Windows was _that_ bad! A few years ago I corresponded with a gentleman who did a bespoke real-time Linkwitz Orion crossover/EQ on his music server. The computer was a Power Mac G3, and I don't believe it was even running OSX.


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## burrometer (Aug 7, 2005)

Well I'm using console for a 2 way system on an AMD 3200+ and the filters alone use between 30 and 50 percent of the cpu. The output is wonderful but multi-tasking is out the window. As mentioned above, within a year the hardware AND software will be at a point where running a 6+ channels with DRC will be a reasonable task. Ohhh so far away!


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

i WONT be using the cpu to do any audio processing, so a typical amd or p4 would be fine?

Just thinking of cost here, an average recording quality soundcard would average 200.
I can just use that (and a bit more) to get another dcx. I don't need any DRC. Just any decent audio card with optical output would be fine.

Back to power supply and motherboard issue, which would you guys recommend going on a value system? AMD or p3-p4? 
I'll probably need gps, bluetooth, wireless card for internet sharing.
I don't care for the size of the motherboards and components. Most will probably be stored somewhere in the trunk.


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## crash813 (Aug 23, 2005)

I found a good P3 had plenty of horsepower for any app the carputer was going to do, less heat, less wattage, and easier on the wallet. What kills you is all the little things you have to buy like 10ft vga and usb cables, slimline drivers, etc.

I actually have a p3 1ghz that I took out of my old car if your interested. It ain't pretty but can let you concetrate on the lcd, interface, and sw until you know what you want. I gave up the carputer with my new car.


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

is it the smaller form motherboard?
I'm considering the motherboard and the CPU i mentioned a few posts back since it's only 80 or 90 new. 

Your screen looks good. Is it vga touchscreen?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

I like how your screen install came out. How did you mold it to fit the dash?


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

I just noticed the dvd right under the screen...very intuitive..


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

If optical output is the only 'must-have' then I still think the new Mac Mini is the way to go. It is powerful enough for your needs, it's easy to install, it comes with a dvd drive so you can put it in your dash and still play your cds, and it also has other goodies onboard like bluetooth and wifi. By the time you get all that crap onto a PC based system you're looking at a mess of usb cables.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

For those looking just for the audio/video component, I also recommend a modded xbox. With the advanced AV pack, you can have toslink and coax output. It's a cheap and relatively simple. XBox media center is a good music frontend. It's only when you start talking about GPS, signal processing, etc that it becomes an unsuitable option.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

chuyler1 said:


> By the time you get all that crap onto a PC based system you're looking at a mess of usb cables.


That's exactly my situation. I have two USB outputs from my board. The soundcard plugs directly into one of them, and a 4-port hub goes into the other one. Into the hub I have the following: Behringer connection, GPS, USB FM device, looong extension up to the front which connects to ANOTHER hub. Into that goes the touchscreen, remote control receiver, the OBD2 device, and blank spots to accept my external hard drive and my wireless internet device. I think I'm getting close to the 256 device limit for USB.


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## Kris (May 23, 2006)

xencloud said:


> Yes, it is, and it still isn't powerful enough to process more than 4 channels (probably) with the current software. One guy had an athlon FX (really fast single core), and it was brought to it's knees running a simple 2-way HT setup using this method.


That's some pretty rancid software 

I run a 64-track recording studio on a PC, with more realtime effects running than you can shake a stick at, and it rarely even breaks a sweat. The problem is not the cpu -- even a P3-1Ghz should suffice for 6 or 8 channels -- the problem is finding some decent software that (a) is written well and (b) you don't pay an arm a leg for. It's such a minority market right now that there's not much available that I'm aware of. 

Better to go for a low power, cool running (no damn fan noise) device that acts simply as a smart HU. Do all the rest offboard. If you can run optical to the amps, then so much the better. Mac mini seems like a good choice -- they're almost completely silent (at least, the earlier ones were) -- but I don't know if you retain the handy "controlled shutdown" and "standby" support that some car power-supplies offer when used with a PC oriented MB. Anyone have any experience with that?


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

I'm looking at a mac mini 1.5ghz core solo right now, askring price is $250. 
Has there been any interface for the mac osx like the one above for windows?

Also wondering about the power supplies issues as well.

Thanks for the mac mini suggestion guys


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Kris said:


> That's some pretty rancid software
> 
> I run a 64-track recording studio on a PC, with more realtime effects running than you can shake a stick at, and it rarely even breaks a sweat. The problem is not the cpu -- even a P3-1Ghz should suffice for 6 or 8 channels -- the problem is finding some decent software that (a) is written well and (b) you don't pay an arm a leg for. It's such a minority market right now that there's not much available that I'm aware of.
> 
> Better to go for a low power, cool running (no damn fan noise) device that acts simply as a smart HU. Do all the rest offboard. If you can run optical to the amps, then so much the better. Mac mini seems like a good choice -- they're almost completely silent (at least, the earlier ones were) -- but I don't know if you retain the handy "controlled shutdown" and "standby" support that some car power-supplies offer when used with a PC oriented MB. Anyone have any experience with that?


I too run multi track software, blow it thru ethernet real time and wun all sorts of BIG plug in's. I've only found one effects package that slows it down but it's a no-phase-shift EQ. All work fine on a PIII but on my Dual P4 it runs in stride while doing other tasks. Good software is key, and you will pay for it 

Chad


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

sqkev said:


> I'm looking at a mac mini 1.5ghz core solo right now, askring price is $250.
> Has there been any interface for the mac osx like the one above for windows?
> 
> Also wondering about the power supplies issues as well.
> ...


Here's some reading for you to go through:
http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=40211


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## xencloud (Aug 26, 2005)

gimme that software chad!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

At home I track in Vegas and master in Sound Forge. At work I use Sequoia or Pro Tools. I still prefer mastering in sound forge though. Most plug-in's are Waves for EQ and dynamics. I use T.C. Electronics for FX, just a personal preference. I Use all TC mixing live too, with the exception of the backup that is a Lexicon, Lexicon has a nice plate reverb, very woody and cool for snare. Sony's (formerly sonic foundry) software is simple to operate but VERY powerful, you don't have to dig that far to get the most out of it but it's not boring for an advanced user.

Chad


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