# Wow, I never knew it could be this good...I'm scrapping my setup and starting over...



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I got to listen to a few local's SQ setups last night (Kirk Profitt, and a couple other guys' who I didn't get last names of). It was my first experience hearing true systems designed for SQ; most of the kids around here my age just care about bass. When I sat in their cars I was literally speechless. The depth, clarity, response, width, all of it was astonishing. It truly opened my eyes to what is possible. So, rather than salvaging what I have, I think I'm going to start from scratch. 

The amps I'll be using are a PDX 4.100 for midrange & tweeter, and a JL 1000/1 for sub duty. I'm still on the fence for PDX 4.150 OR 4.100 for midbass duty. 
I think I might keep my Seas L18's in the doors for midbass duty; haven't decided 100%. But, I am going to drop my HAT L1's and vifa tg9 midranges and step up a notch. 

I'm going to take my time about this and build it up over a month or so, so I'll be doing research of my own. However, in the meantime, I would like to get some input here of exactly _what_ to consider in my research. I think I'm going to set a budget at $400 for midrange & tweeter. I'm looking into Scan & Seas for my research today. If you have suggestions for midbass feel free to throw them in. 

Thanks to all here who've helped me get this far. I'm even more psyched on car audio right now than I've ever been. Thanks to Kirk for letting me hear his bad-ass setup (I'm still lost for words), Ricky and Scott for letting me listen to their rides, too (if you guys see this thread). Hope to see you all in Nashville if not before. Matt R(hodes), and David; thanks for the advice and lesson on comps. All of you guys were super nice and that's highly appreciated from a timid newb. *this thread is turning into a shout-out so I'm done now*


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Matt Roberts.

I have been telling you for a few months that you need to get up with those guys and hear their cars...most people on this forum haven't heard cars that can do the things those guys cars can do.

Kirk's car is pretty damned nice for a car that uses stock speaker locations. Those Audio Technology drivers aren't no joke either.

Ricky's truck has a Scan Rev 10 in it...that's a bad boy 10 that really boogies.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2007)

I think the best path to follow is something along the lines of:

- listen to great sounding vehicles, to understand what's even possible in a car. Sounds like you've made this first step wonderfully 

- understand WHY they sound so good. This is imperative. I'd bet is has lots more to do with driver placement and room (cabin) treatment than just about anything else ... including choice of amplifiers or headunit, for example.

- within your budget constraints, follow along similar lines ... focusing most heavily on driver placement and install, rather than choice of equipment.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Speaking of which, we need to get you to a show sometime


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## syzygy9 (Jun 28, 2007)

Along the lines of driver placement i'll be keeping an eye on you 'punk'. I'm also on 8thGen with my GG sedan. I've yet to install my equipment and have no problems copying what others have had sucess with.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

I'm gonna veer off topic a little bit, sorry bikinpunk.



werewolf said:


> - within your budget constraints, follow along similar lines ... focusing most heavily on driver placement and install, rather than choice of equipment.


This is something I find myself rather confused about. I've been into car audio for over half my life now. I know who the heavy-hitters are, both in terms of people on the circuit and brands. I've attended IASCA World Finals in previous years. I've heard Matt Roberts' truck, Steven Head's Ram, and Justin Polk's Tahoe, all awesome sounding vehicles. But I've also heard this mantra of "great install over great equipment" for years as well.

I just feel like that the whole idea of a great install still takes a backseat to great equipment. Off the top of my head, not a single "successful" car on the IASCA SQ circuit is using what I would consider budget or even mid-line equipment. I think Brian Young's G35 might be the only exception - he's using an Elemental Designs sub that runs about $120. Otherwise, all I see in the cars of the highly respected guys is pretty much high-end. Scan-Speak Revelators. Zapco C2K and DC Reference amps. Alpine F#1 Status and Pioneer P9 combo head units. Aura subs. $500 apiece for Audio Technology drivers? They better have a built-in blowjob machine for that price!

At this point, with my (IMHO) mid-line equipment, I'd be terrified of getting laughed out of a competition. I can't afford a single piece of any of that high-end stuff, save for maybe a Zapco Symbilink cable! My wife and I combined make less than $100k annually, I'm a new homeowner with several projects going on at once, and I refuse to put myself in further debt over car audio. I still want a great sounding vehicle, but I have to do it within pretty limited budget constraints.

My goal one day really is to compete successfully in IASCA. I just don't see it happening anytime soon. There's still too much stuffiness about using elite brands, it seems to me. As gay as it sounds, it does seem like there's a unique brotherhood, a fraternity of successful guys that have great sounding cars that have won these comps. I want to be in that fraternity too, but it sucks that I'll likely have to pay out the nose to get there. Until then, I'm stuck with trying to build a "great install".

Sorry for ****ting on your thread, bikinpunk. I wish you luck on your overhaul. Anyone, please feel free to refute this post, agree with it, etc. I'm an open-minded guy and would like to hear the different perspectives.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Matt Roberts.
> 
> I have been telling you for a few months that you need to get up with those guys and hear their cars...most people on this forum haven't heard cars that can do the things those guys cars can do.
> 
> ...


Matt Roberts...my bad. I go to school with a Matt Rhodes. 

Thanks for the advice. Wish I would've listened to you a long time ago. Those guys' vehicles kill, lol. 



werewolf said:


> I think the best path to follow is something along the lines of:
> 
> - listen to great sounding vehicles, to understand what's even possible in a car. Sounds like you've made this first step wonderfully
> 
> ...



As for installation I'm really fortunate with my midrange placement in my car because there's an extra window up front that I manged to place a small enclosure in, giving roughly 1 liter of space for a speaker. I then "vented" it down into the dash; seems to work pretty well. Here's a link to my install page. You actually gave me some advice on that thread, if you don't remember. 

The tweeters are stock right now, and they seem to perform pretty well there. I don't have much room in the floor for kicks so I'm pretty limited to the doors for midbass. I've treated my doors pretty well, but I'm pretty sure I need to go back and brace them up. I had them braced for a while but didn't do a good job with it. The sheet metal in my doors is thin as can be.

Having said all that; I think I've done my part as for the install. That's why I feel I can work toward proper drivers. Though, I'm sure there's always something more I can do for my install.

I had actually thought about picking up some HAT L3's, but after last night I think I'm going a different direction.



thehatedguy said:


> Speaking of which, we need to get you to a show sometime


Me, or Rabbit?



syzygy9 said:


> Along the lines of driver placement i'll be keeping an eye on you 'punk'. I'm also on 8thGen with my GG sedan. I've yet to install my equipment and have no problems copying what others have had sucess with.


No problem copying me. 




Thanks for the help guys. I'm PUMPED! haha


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## slim j (Nov 30, 2005)

Same goes for most car audio competitions.

Why do you think bass race is popular? At the 129.9,139.9 level you don't have to spend 1/2 your annual income on amps, batts, etc.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Jeffy Jeff needs to get his lyca butt to a show and meet some of his interweb/phone homies.

Dan, don't let your "midlevel" equipment stop you! I have 2 "high end" pieces of equipment in my car- the Denon deck and the HSS tube amp, the rest- xS69s, IDW15s, and Zapco gear while "high end" isn't that horribly priced.

And really, the Hybrid speakers aren't super expensive either. So, you can do a lot with a modest budget.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Dan, you might be surprised. After listening to those setups last night I wasn't as disappointed with my setup as I thought I would have been. Not saying that my stereo is near the level as there's but I do feel better that I've gotten this far by myself; meaning I had no other references and was my own judge. 

I feel more confident now to move forward. Until I went last night I had never wanted to compete, but those guys changed my mind. Matter of fact, I might try to put my car in at the Finals in Nashville if I can get my install cleaned up. I'd like to just throw my HAT in (no pun intended) the ring and see how I come out. Car audio is like anything else: The only way to get better is to play against someone better.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2007)

dawgdan said:


> I'm gonna veer off topic a little bit, sorry bikinpunk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think a great example of "install over equipment" is this year's IASCA finals (i wasn't there  ). The Hybrid Audio speakers totally dominated ... and they are not your typical esoteric, megabuck speakers. Nothing against them, of course, but they're paper cone drivers with a phase plug and nothing particularly innovative about the motors (as far as i can tell). But they are well designed for a mobile environment (the paper is treated, T/S parameters allowing for IB as well as enclosed, etc.) and they are priced accordingly ... 

This is not intended to argue _against_ the HAT drivers ... quite the opposite. They deliver on what they are designed to do, without the "high end mystique" of exotic materials. Know what i mean?


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Dan, you might be surprised. After listening to those setups last night I wasn't as disappointed with my setup as I thought I would have been. Not saying that my stereo is near the level as there's but I do feel better that I've gotten this far by myself; meaning I had no other references and was my own judge.
> 
> I feel more confident now to move forward. Until I went last night I had never wanted to compete, but those guys changed my mind. Matter of fact, I might try to put my car in at the Finals in Nashville if I can get my install cleaned up. I'd like to just throw my HAT in (no pun intended) the ring and see how I come out. Car audio is like anything else: The only way to get better is to play against someone better.


Do it.

I want to hear. I hope you will get the judges out of the way so I can.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

So so right, and that is what competitions really let you do...better yourself and your car.

Too many people on this board frown on competitions...and yet have never been to one, nor know anything about them.



bikinpunk said:


> The only way to get better is to play against someone better.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Matt Roberts...my bad. I go to school with a Matt Rhodes.
> 
> Thanks for the advice. Wish I would've listened to you a long time ago. Those guys' vehicles kill, lol.
> 
> ...


dude, my biggest point is this :

Sounds like you had a revalatory (sp?) listening experience last night. You heard cars that blew you away, true ??

You've got to ask yourself a (simple) question, and understand the (probably complex) answer : 

WHY DID THOSE CARS SOUND SO DAMN GOOD?

Was it because they used equipment with a higher price tag? What's the answer?


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

werewolf said:


> dude, my biggest point is this :
> 
> Sounds like you had a revalatory (sp?) listening experience last night. You heard cars that blew you away, true ??
> 
> ...




INSTALL AND TUNNING...

Bink you said you wanted somethign better then the hybrid tweets, yet Im pretty sure those tweets pulled down like 4 world champs recently.

IMO

Install is 40%
Tunning is 40%
Gear is 20%


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Jeffy Jeff needs to get his lyca butt to a show and meet some of his interweb/phone homies.


too many damn people 

when there's a huge, international car audio show or competition with maybe a total of ... i dunno ... 4 or 5 people present, i'll go


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

I vote for install.

But it is easier to buy more expensive equipment than to install. I am still trying to decide the best place for my tweeters....they are so freaking heavy double sided tape doesn't work.

Learning how to install is much harder. It seems as if all the tutorials explaining these things are either over my head or not applicable. But I do believe the things that are over my head will become clear with someone there pointing.


Bikin,

Did the car have that book with that sound map thing? When I sat in the one SQ car I did sit in at finals, I thought that was the coolest thing I have ever seen. The guy was kinda laughing because I was moving my eyes to the sound. There is one thing called like 7 drums or something and it goes completely accoss the dash board or something like that. Your mind gets messed up because you are looking for sound to come from a place and there is no speaker there...your eyes just kind of pan from left to right....it's pretty amazing. I will be happy if I can ever get my setup to do that.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

kirk set the benchmark for me. i havn't been able to get as good tonally as he was last year but i've come damn close. none of those drivers are in my truck anymore. my L18's didn't like less than perfect recordings and my old morel tweets finally wore out.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

Flipx99 said:


> Bikin,
> 
> Did the car have that book with that sound map thing? When I sat in the one SQ car I did sit in at finals, I thought that was the coolest thing I have ever seen. The guy was kinda laughing because I was moving my eyes to the sound. There is one thing called like 7 drums or something and it goes completely accoss the dash board or something like that. Your mind gets messed up because you are looking for sound to come from a place and there is no speaker there...your eyes just kind of pan from left to right....it's pretty amazing. I will be happy if I can ever get my setup to do that.


I LOVE THAT TRACK....another one I LOVE is "Putting on the Ritz" at the end when the girl walking, it sound as if shes walking from outside of the left of your car onto your dash right across it then out to the right of your car.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

werewolf said:


> Was it because they used equipment with a higher price tag? What's the answer?


Understood. I guess I really just need to get more exposure. I wanted to make the Boaz comp today but am trying to watch my spending. 



Flipx99 said:


> Bikin,
> 
> Did the car have that book with that sound map thing?


No sound map book. I'm pretty certain I'll be at Nashville, even if I don't compete. I'm hoping that me, you, and Thumper can meet up. 

Matter of fact, I think there's a comp in Tennessee in October; I might try to make that, too.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

Do you know when and where?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

werewolf said:


> too many damn people
> 
> when there's a huge, international car audio show or competition with maybe a total of ... i dunno ... 4 or 5 people present, i'll go


um thats most shows 



the actual original statement was that good speakers in the best location can sound and perform better than the best speaker in the worst location. Location and installation is everything.

for every great sounding car using highend speakers etc..there are several more that arent anywhere close

In my Eclipse which placed 2nd at Finals 2 years in a row. The 1st year I ran a pair of ID CX5 and NX30 tweet in the kick panels and Vifa PL7s for midbass

the next year I had ID CD2neo horns, Scan Revelators 7s in Kick panels and IDQ8s in doors for midbass.

Both installs used ID subs, not IDQ or IDW or IDmax--but the ID line.

Processing was via H700

Amps at the time were USamps the 1st year and then Helix A series the 2nd year.

But like Jeff said, I spent alot of time on Install, minimizing reflections, doing alot of decoupling to reduce tactile energy. Minimized any chance for visual hearing by judges...etc...

I won SVR with the same install, but used a pair of $50 Eton Mids I got from Meniscus.

Alot can be done with even second hand equipment in the right hands, but the key is having someone who can tune--so getting out to shows, and meeting people can open up alot of avenues when you need help in the lanes or help with tuning


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

bdubs767 said:


> I LOVE THAT TRACK....another one I LOVE is "Putting on the Ritz" at the end when the girl walking, it sound as if shes walking from outside of the left of your car onto your dash right across it then out to the right of your car.


I gotta try that....He chose the tracks.

The music on the disc is rather uninteresting to me.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Flipx99 said:


> Do you know when and where?


Oct 21st. Goodletsville. http://www.mecacaraudio.com/eventtable.aspx

There's also one on Oct 6th in Crossville.

World finals are in Nashville on November 17th.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> So so right, and that is what competitions really let you do...better yourself and your car.
> 
> Too many people on this board frown on competitions...and yet have never been to one, nor know anything about them.


That's cuz you don't go to the west coast comps 

Most of us also frown on comps because we tend to come from home audio... and any car you listen to is just not going to impress like a pair of drivers in a large, well treated room.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Oct 21st. Goodletsville. http://www.mecacaraudio.com/eventtable.aspx
> 
> There's also one on Oct 6th in Crossville.
> 
> World finals are in Nashville on November 17th.


Which one you going to?

Crossville would be very far away....goodletsville isn't too bad.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Honestly not sure. 

I can say that I'm about 99% I'm going to the World Finals, but dunno about others. If I were to go to another it would be the Goodletsville comp, probably.


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

werewolf said:


> too many damn people
> 
> when there's a huge, international car audio show or competition with maybe a total of ... i dunno ... 4 or 5 people present, i'll go


so let me get this straight......

you'll fly half way around the world to watch a F1 race with I'm sure more than a few thousand attendees(sp)....

but you won't fly a few states away to hang out with your friends with less than prolly 50 people at the most?....

lame excuse!!!


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

npdang said:


> That's cuz you don't go to the west coast comps
> 
> Most of us also frown on comps because we tend to come from home audio... and any car you listen to is just not going to impress like a pair of drivers in a large, well treated room.


I came from a home hifi background...

you would be amazed...I have yet to hear any home system have the focus that a few cars including my own have...also I tend to feel that the micro detail is more prevelant than home systems...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah, now that you mention it...that is pretty fugged up.



the other hated guy said:


> so let me get this straight......
> 
> you'll fly half way around the world to watch a F1 race with I'm sure more than a few thousand attendees(sp)....
> 
> ...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Even then, how many have really awesome home stereos? There are cars on the east coast that could out perform more than a few home stereos...and we get to drive the cars and enjoy the great sound. Can't say that about the home systems.



npdang said:


> That's cuz you don't go to the west coast comps
> 
> Most of us also frown on comps because we tend to come from home audio... and any car you listen to is just not going to impress like a pair of drivers in a large, well treated room.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

We must appreciate very different things then, because I just don't like the way cars sound at all. When you think of the diffraction, heavy reflections, space constraints, and mounting locations available in a car it just produces a very different type of sound than a large, well treated room with drivers that can be placed most optimally, in enclosures that you can really go all out with (dipoles, line arrays, t-lines, concrete/marble/aluminum enclosures etc.). Most of the people I talk to tend to be the same way, and have gotten out of car audio. I'll also go out and say that most live, amplified concerts are usually the worst kind of reference you can have for reproducing music Imho.

I have nothing against competition, and I love to come out and meet people and hear different cars... but what bothers me is the assumptions people draw from it... that because certain equipment did well in competition that it must be good/better... or that being a successful competitor also makes you technically proficient with regards to things audio...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I would think being a successful competitor would give you more credibility than random Joe off of the street...how else would you judge someone's credentials on the other side of the world without having met them? Could be a guy sitting around in his underwear, picking his nose, and reading a bunch of crap on the internet...then giving advice when he has never pulled a door panel off of a car. Or you have a guy how has some success in an international competition format...who people know giving you advice.

Which would you rather be talking to?


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> I would think being a successful competitor would give you more credibility than random Joe off of the street...how else would you judge someone's credentials on the other side of the world without having met them? Could be a guy sitting around in his underwear, picking his nose, and reading a bunch of crap on the internet...then giving advice when he has never pulled a door panel off of a car. Or you have a guy how has some success in an international competition format...who people know giving you advice.
> 
> Which would you rather be talking to?


Just to play devils advocate...I dont think npdang or werewolf have won comps but I consider both of them to probably be the most knowlegable people on the forums. I understand they are both probably outliers, and understand what your saying; Who would I rather listen to for advice with my car yourself, heb ham, audionutz, ect or some random person??? I think you know the answer.

The one problem I have with car audio sq comps is that the best SOUNDING CARS dont always win. Like I know Matt Roberts from what you and randy say is pretty much the best sounding car out there, but isnt always the winner. I'll try to find that thread about some comp where his car was the best sounding but placed 5th overall.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Finals, SQC he didn't place in top 5.

As technically knowledgeable as Jeff is, he would be the first one to tell you that he isn't the one to talk to about making the theory meet the road in a car. You can have guys speculate all day long who could never do half the things they are talking about...what good is that?


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Finals, SQC he didn't place in top 5.
> 
> As technically knowledgeable as Jeff is, he would be the first one to tell you that he isn't the one to talk to about making the theory meet the road in a car. You can have guys speculate all day long who could never do half the things they are talking about...what good is that?


I’m sure if werewolf put the time in energy into learning how to do the fab work could create one of the best installs out there...or if he directed a great installer could create an amazing car.

The speculation is good though it leads to creation of new ideas, if if t wasn't for people like him we'd be in the stone age.

What separates him from most everyone else is he uses science where as the rest of us (myself included) use this... because we say it sounds goods, in my car and this car it sounded good ect. Yes he doesn;t go out and test his theories, but he uses a great scientific logic from sources with that are more valid then "my ears say so" There is massive amounts of pseudoscience that floats around the forums, nothing ever is really put to the scientific method. To give a blunt example of this for the audio community us to be able to say the Scan Speak Ring Rev sounds better then a Boss Run of the Mill Tweet. A few things have to be done (well shortened version of it)...

1.) Hypothesis: 99% of people will fell the Scan Ring Rev sounds better then the Boss Tweet

2.) Design an experiment that allows for your hypoth. to be supported and false

3.)Perform experiment with a random sampling of people, and make sure it's a blind A/B test and no other variables are changed.

3.) Get your results

4.) Repeat time and time again to support your hypothesis

Yes to do this for the ring rev vs. a boss tweeter may be a little over the top, but I was just using it as an example. 

Also another thing that I am guilty of doing but ti still gets to me a little the terms we use bright, warm, colored, bland ect ...yes we all have a general understanding of what it means but what does one tweeter being a little brighter then another tweeter really mean? 3db louder @ 16khz? 4db louder @ 8khz
Another is the SQ is better on this sub then the other????what does that mean? As every one sees SQ differently...does it mean plays flatter, plays 40hz to 50hz better?????
I understand what your getting at winslow just trying to play devils advocate and show the importance of people like werewolf and npdang who use more sound ways of describing why things sounds they way they do. Does this mean the people that create these amazing sounding installs shouldn't be taken as credible because they can't use science to explain things...no, but they what they do say IMO is a good jumping off point to begin an experiment.
This kind of got long lol


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It's all good dude...you and I are having a nice discussion, or I thought it was going well. I see your side, and you see my side.

And Jeff has had the offer of a couple guys on here to build a car for him...come to a show, hang out, etc...but I guess Randy and I aren't cool enough for him to hang out with .

The subjective terms are a bit misleading sometimes unless you can agree with what exactly you are talking about. For example, I was telling Matt Roberts what I was hearing and calling it what I'm familiar with calling it...to him he knew it as something different. However, there is really no way to quantify those types of descriptions. Even from looking at data from testing methods like Klippel, etc, one should refrain from trying to make subjective descriptions on sound from that objective data. Klippel himself said you shouldn't try to make subjective claims based on the objective data.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> I would think being a successful competitor would give you more credibility than random Joe off of the street...how else would you judge someone's credentials on the other side of the world without having met them? Could be a guy sitting around in his underwear, picking his nose, and reading a bunch of crap on the internet...then giving advice when he has never pulled a door panel off of a car. Or you have a guy how has some success in an international competition format...who people know giving you advice.
> 
> Which would you rather be talking to?


I completely agree with what you're saying, but I think you got me wrong. All I'm saying is that I just don't think successfully competing necessarily makes you technically proficient, especially with respect to explaining phenomen in that regard... Which is sometimes very important if you want to be able to duplicate or improve on something.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> It's all good dude...you and I are having a nice discussion, or I thought it was going well. I see your side, and you see my side.
> 
> And Jeff has had the offer of a couple guys on here to build a car for him...come to a show, hang out, etc...but I guess Randy and I aren't cool enough for him to hang out with .
> 
> The subjective terms are a bit misleading sometimes unless you can agree with what exactly you are talking about. For example, I was telling Matt Roberts what I was hearing and calling it what I'm familiar with calling it...to him he knew it as something different. However, there is really no way to quantify those types of descriptions. Even from looking at data from testing methods like Klippel, etc, one should refrain from trying to make subjective descriptions on sound from that objective data. Klippel himself said you shouldn't try to make subjective claims based on the objective data.


Did he really say that?

I think the guy does a workshop on psycho-acoustics.. which doesn't make sense then why he would say something like that.

But anyways, I agree the subjective stuff drives me crazy sometimes when you can't find a similar basis of comparison. It would be nice and simple if you could just find some metrics that everyone could compare on even footing that would tell you what to expect... or hell just something you could tune by..


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Sorry, it was late and that got a little convoluted...this is what Dr. Geddes said about Klippel testing and subjective data-

The point were I deviate from Klippel is in subjective testing. His posts on the web are not blind and his auralizations are intended to show the "sound" of the effects and not to "scale" the effects to a usable and correlated metric. His modeling and analysis are excellent, but his subjective testing does not use accepted standards in psychoacoustics.

Wolfgang and I often lecture at the same venues (like ALMA in a few weeks) and have discussed this point extensively. Wolfgang would agree that his work is not aimed at audibility, but at analysis and modeling for design. He would not claim any work at corelating subjective to objective data.

As I have tried to make clear, mine interest is in doing exactly what Wolfgang has not done.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> It's all good dude...you and I are having a nice discussion, or I thought it was going well. I see your side, and you see my side.


We are no worries  


Both the subjective and objective have their very important place in audio, but the subjective tends to overpower the objective at least in car audio from my experiences over the past 3 years. I must say the subjective tips I have received have made my car go from terrible POS sound to the best around my local areas that I've heard. With that said I'm not very active in going out and listening to peoples cars,  once my cars finally done, maybe Ill have to crash the party in the VA and MASS area    . Id love to hear some of the top cars out there, just don't really know anyone in my area.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

lol... I can't even get upset that this has veered way off topic. 

But, I'd like to bring it back OT if we can. I'm all ears on suggestions for drivers and install if you guys are willing to give them.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> lol... I can't even get upset that this has veered way off topic.
> 
> But, I'd like to bring it back OT if we can. I'm all ears on suggestions for drivers and install if you guys are willing to give them.


Whats all your xover points slopes ect?


----------



## Guest (Oct 1, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> It's all good dude...you and I are having a nice discussion, or I thought it was going well. I see your side, and you see my side.
> 
> And Jeff has had the offer of a couple guys on here to build a car for him...come to a show, hang out, etc...but I guess Randy and I aren't cool enough for him to hang out with .


oh shut up  

OK, off topic ... yeah i go to races with thousands of spectators ... but i don't ever have to actually _interact_ with them  i really just don't like people very much, at all  

But jason has me right on ... i can accurately be accused of being more fascinated by theory than practise, and i'm sure i couldn't fabricate myself out of a paper bag. I haven't done an install in years, and the last one i did i just paid someone to finish, which is ultimately not very satisfying  However, i do have a new install in mind, with time to finally work on it  but i gotta do all the work myself.

But the truth is, i think i can still contribute to this hobby of ours. The day i become convinced otherwise, i'll be gone. In a nutshell, here's my contribution : _music_ is emotion, but _audio_ is science


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

See, you can go to a show and hang with Randy and I...and we don't have to tell anyone who you are or anything. People will leave you a lone if they don't know who you are. Just have done so much for Randy and I that we want to return the favor somehow.

But now, you need a game plan...you need to figure out the sound that you are after in your head and what speakers will get you there.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

werewolf said:


> _music_ is emotion, but _audio_ is science


quote of the year


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

First thing I would do would be ditch those TG9s...those little mids will make little sounding music. And you'll have to cross them too high to make door mounted midbasses really work real well.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> First thing I would do would be ditch those TG9s...those little mids will make little sounding music. And you'll have to cross them too high to make door mounted midbasses really work real well.


That's EXACTLY my gripe with my current setup. The minute I put them in they just weren't "loud" enough, but after a while I got used to it. Then, after listening to Kirk's car I realized I REALLY missed that volume levels. I just can't get that out of the tg9's. 

My tweeters are crossed so high I'm not too sure how much more good it would do me to change those, but I know that a midrange replacement is overdue.


I think alot of you guys are right; I just need more listening sessions to determine exactly what I'm lacking and what I want. I just know that after I heard some of those setups last night that I can definately improve. I'm almost 100% sure I'll be at the World's in November. Maybe we can try to get together and I can get some of your opinions? I should've taken advantage of my time last night to get some opinions but I was too busy trying to listen & learn.

BTW, where are you from?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I'm in North Carolina, just about a hour away from Matt Roberts in one direction and Ron Buffington in the other direction.

I am planning on going to MECA Finals with Matt...Randy will have his car there too, so it would be a great chance to hear some awesome cars with probably a small amount of foot traffic.

But don't do anything rash right now. Listen to the cars, be thinking of a game plan, what you want your car to do, etc. Get a plan together...research speakers, etc.

Kirk didn't have the volume last year that he has this year...it is impressive for what it is. But he does have a Zapco DC1000.4 bridged to every speaker on the front stage. 500 watts per driver lets you get headroom...even on the Scan 60000 tweeters.

Start measuring PLDs between the kicks and the little triangle windows on your car, see what they are side to side with the seat in the listening position (most comp cars have it slid all the way back and comfortably reclined).


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

About doing anything rash; you're right. When I went for a drive to my friend's house tonight and listened to "My Father's Eyes" I realized that my stereo isn't in dire need of a change ATM. So, I believe I will go ahead and pick up another PDX amp (I really like the size vs. performance) but as for drivers I'm not going to move on anything until I get some more listening under my belt. So, I really look forward to listening to your setup and others and possibly having some of you guys give me some criticism. 

As for the PLD's, I've never quite understood the impact of this element. Is this simply a cancellation issue? 

When you say measure, are you saying to measure distance between midbasses in the doors, then distance between midrange & midrange. Or, are you talking from midbass to midrange on the same side, or are you talking midbass to midrange on opposite sides?...lol, obviously I'm not sure what the impact of this is. 

I really appreciate your help thus far.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> I'm in North Carolina, just about a hour away from Matt Roberts in one direction and Ron Buffington in the other direction.
> 
> I am planning on going to MECA Finals with Matt...Randy will have his car there too, so it would be a great chance to hear some awesome cars with probably a small amount of foot traffic.


Whens and wheres this going to be...I may have to take a ride down to hear some amazing cars.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You want to measure say, from where your triangle windows are to the headrest...measure the left window to the left seat and right window to the left seat, the do the same with the general area where you would put mids in the kicks. See what the differences are...post the measurements up if you want to. Generally if you have less than an 11" difference side to side the easier it will be to get good imaging and staging. The smaller the difference, the better the results out of the box will be. Midbass to headrest isn't important right now, b/c hopefully you will be getting the new midranges low enough to negate some of the PLDs there. IF you can get the midbasses in the kicks in the proper amount of airspace, then that will be the way to go.

BUT midrange placement is the KEY to getting good sound. All other speakers are secondary to the midrange.

My advice on the midrange placement is this- put the largest midrange in the best placement you can. I like large midranges, I think they sound more realistic and have less problems with dynamics and transients. But, I wouldn't go putting a 7 or 8" midrange in a poor location like a door when I could get a 5 or 6 in the kicks.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I think it is November 17th weekend in Nashville.



bdubs767 said:


> Whens and wheres this going to be...I may have to take a ride down to hear some amazing cars.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> I got to listen to a few local's SQ setups last night (Kirk Profitt, and a couple other guys' who I didn't get last names of). It was my first experience hearing true systems designed for SQ; most of the kids around here my age just care about bass. When I sat in their cars I was literally speechless. The depth, clarity, response, width, all of it was astonishing. It truly opened my eyes to what is possible. So, rather than salvaging what I have, I think I'm going to start from scratch.
> 
> The amps I'll be using are a PDX 4.100 for midrange & tweeter, and a JL 1000/1 for sub duty. I'm still on the fence for PDX 4.150 OR 4.100 for midbass duty.
> I think I might keep my Seas L18's in the doors for midbass duty; haven't decided 100%. But, I am going to drop my HAT L1's and vifa tg9 midranges and step up a notch.
> ...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Measurements in inches. Luckily I already had this saved from my T/A sheet.
Drivers Tweeter 35
Passengers Tweeter	49
Drivers Midrange	37.5
Passengers Midrange	51
Drivers Midbass	41.25
Passenger's Midbass	56

So, on average there's about 14" difference b/t all pairs. 


Talking placement, I'm not sure if I can really do kicks in my car. The floor isn't that roomy. That's actually why I built up the midrange pods in the window and went with midbasses in the door. 

I *might* be able to get 4" midranges in the pods, but I don't think I can do much more. In your experience, is good response attainable with 3.5 or 4" midranges, or do you prefer larger?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I like larger, but that Scan 4 is pretty badassed. Jeff says the Pioneer 4 is even better. I really liked the Focal 3 too, but that puppy is major $$$.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

air saw is your friend...cut into the kicks... like so

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/321753

some of my favorite kicks ever. Top three IMO with Randy's civic, and ds5c on ECAs bimmer with gens.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Whoa...I'm not prepared to cut into my car that hardcore. 

I was trembling when I cut my doors a little larger...imagine how I'd be putting an airsaw to my car.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I'll cut it for you


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

You mentioned Scan 4". Are you talking about the Revelator line?


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I like larger, but that Scan 4 is pretty badassed. Jeff says the Pioneer 4 is even better.


in everything except, probably, power handling.

I'm not quite as fanatical as jason about volume, although i can't argue with the dynamical presentation of large midranges  I think a 4" driver is rather ideal for kickpanel midranges ... any smaller, and you'll suffer sheer volume/output in the lower midrange (200~300Hz), and too much larger means off-axis attenution in the upper midrange (2~3kHz), meaning the fabricationally-challenged can't simply mount off-axis, recessed and cross-fired  ... in other words, larger midranges require more time to aim and fabricate.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> You mentioned Scan 4". Are you talking about the Revelator line?


he is, its a godly speaker.... 

and like small enclosures  see...


































since changed tho IM 2-way > 3-way


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

That's a pretty speaker. 


Wolf, the install that I have right now for my midranges is on-axis, which when I was doing my research seemed to be the common thing to do. My basic understanding of on vs. off-axis is simply preference. Is there any main reason why you would choose one over the other, or is it simply preference? Does one have a great advantage over the other?


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> That's a pretty speaker.
> 
> 
> Wolf, the install that I have right now for my midranges is on-axis, which when I was doing my research seemed to be the common thing to do. My basic understanding of on vs. off-axis is simply preference. Is there any main reason why you would choose one over the other, or is it simply preference? Does one have a great advantage over the other?


In the upper eschelon ... Scan Rev, Seas Excel, even Pioneer PRS, etc ... it's all good


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

That's good to know. If I can flatten out the face of my midrange pods I can gain some more surface area and possibly get some 4" midranges in there. The tg9's were a pretty tight fit as it was. On top of that, the pods would look much more flush with the a-pillars, like you mentioned in my install thread.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

bikinpunk said:


> That's a pretty speaker.
> 
> 
> Wolf, the install that I have right now for my midranges is on-axis, which when I was doing my research seemed to be the common thing to do. My basic understanding of on vs. off-axis is simply preference. Is there any main reason why you would choose one over the other, or is it simply preference? Does one have a great advantage over the other?



In a cars having drivers directly on axis will make it have a strange sound stage with it centered in front of you, less depth, and less width in my trails. Yes more dynamic but the stage goes down the ****er. In a car IMo shot go for the kick and about 35 degrees of axis aka aim it at the radio.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

you may want to check out the Genesis Studio 3" Coincidental Midrange/Tweeter.
It will play from 300hz (@12db/octave) to 30khz.
Very shallow only about 1.5" deep

You could do them completely off axis in your window cut outs. Do a fairly large midbass in the doors like a Scan Rev 7 or Genny ABsolute7 . Dynaudio etc... 

The Studio 3s would also work well in the kicks. With a little cutting into that kick panel area, U could easily recess them so they take up no foot room and have them aimed more on axis. This will give u the best pathlengths so it would stage better from both seats.

the dash/window area would be good if youre going for a one seater or want to use a center channel.


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## Fellippe (Sep 15, 2006)

npdang said:


> That's cuz you don't go to the west coast comps
> 
> Most of us also frown on comps because we tend to come from home audio... and any car you listen to is just not going to impress like a pair of drivers in a large, well treated room.


What he said.


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

dawgdan said:


> I'm gonna veer off topic a little bit, sorry bikinpunk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good luck! I'll be is Dawsonville, GA 10/7/07 should anyone want to wander over.

Kirk 

(Roll Tide)


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> I got to listen to a few local's SQ setups last night (Kirk Profitt, and a couple other guys' who I didn't get last names of). It was my first experience hearing true systems designed for SQ; most of the kids around here my age just care about bass. When I sat in their cars I was literally speechless. The depth, clarity, response, width, all of it was astonishing. It truly opened my eyes to what is possible. So, rather than salvaging what I have, I think I'm going to start from scratch.
> 
> The amps I'll be using are a PDX 4.100 for midrange & tweeter, and a JL 1000/1 for sub duty. I'm still on the fence for PDX 4.150 OR 4.100 for midbass duty.
> I think I might keep my Seas L18's in the doors for midbass duty; haven't decided 100%. But, I am going to drop my HAT L1's and vifa tg9 midranges and step up a notch.
> ...


I am glad you could make it. When you are ready to start on the install let us know. October is a BUSY competition month with all the MECA State Finals. After World Finals in November we start getting ready for next year.

Kirk


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Sorry, it was late and that got a little convoluted...this is what Dr. Geddes said about Klippel testing and subjective data-
> 
> The point were I deviate from Klippel is in subjective testing. His posts on the web are not blind and his auralizations are intended to show the "sound" of the effects and not to "scale" the effects to a usable and correlated metric. His modeling and analysis are excellent, but his subjective testing does not use accepted standards in psychoacoustics.
> 
> ...


That's very interesting stuff!

Given that there's only so much you can do with mounting locations and room treatment in a car, do you think that electronic correction is the only path left?

I'm kinda sorta jaded at this point about equipment... seems that no matter what you use you reach a hard limit unless you're willing to heavily modify the vehicle's interior.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> Good luck! I'll be is Dawsonville, GA 10/7/07 should anyone want to wander over.
> 
> Kirk
> 
> (Roll Tide)


I think I'll be up there as well. 

Your Tide has some work to do before they can roll.


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> I came from a home hifi background...
> 
> you would be amazed...I have yet to hear any home system have the focus that a few cars including my own have...also I tend to feel that the micro detail is more prevelant than home systems...


I agree, although I don't come from a home audio background I recently went to a high end audio shop and listened to several sets of speakers of various styles, priced from about $1000-$60,000 most of which were powered of McIntosh monoblocks and some very exxy CD players aswell, and honestly I don't think a single one of those sets I listened to honestly staged or imaged aswell as my car nor had some of the tonality of my car. But thats my opinion and my ears and everyone is different.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

dawgdan said:


> My goal one day really is to compete successfully in IASCA. I just don't see it happening anytime soon. There's still too much stuffiness about using elite brands, it seems to me. As gay as it sounds, it does seem like there's a unique brotherhood, a fraternity of successful guys that have great sounding cars that have won these comps. I want to be in that fraternity too, but it sucks that I'll likely have to pay out the nose to get there. Until then, I'm stuck with trying to build a "great install".


I have never competed in IASCA, just SLAP and this year is MECA. I wish we had a better judge for MECA in our area. This year I did very well at a local event where they brought in 3 outside judges and averaged the score, took home best of show in SQ and first in Pro Mod+. At the heart of my system are little 3" Hivi's that play a good chuck of the frequency spectrum 160-7.4KHz and are the cheapest part of my install at a whopping $9 for the pair. Some other parts of my install are a little more pricey, but I'm not sponsered and can still hang with with big guys. I doubt I'd ever win at finals but hopefully one day I can place in the top 3.

Mid level components can hang. I heard a setup my buddy put together with some JL6450 +4300 amps, and a pair of focal 165Kp's and 10W3V2 run active off a H701 with maybe an hour of tuning behind it using all stock locations in a newer civic. I was amazed at how well it sounded tonality wise and staging and imaging was good as well. 

So it can be done even at a cheaper level, just don't get discouraged and have fun with it. If you get caught up in all the politics you will start to get a bad attitude and leave shows feeling sour. And what fun is that? It's a hobby, do what you want with it.


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

bdubs767 said:


> In a cars having drivers directly on axis will make it have a strange sound stage with it centered in front of you, less depth, and less width in my trails. Yes more dynamic but the stage goes down the ****er. In a car IMo shot go for the kick and about 35 degrees of axis aka aim it at the radio.


I've recently gone from a very Off axis 'A' pillar mid and tweeter install, to a install with the opposite side mid and tweet On axis and the drivers side being about 20-30deg off axis, and I'll agree with what you have said. Initially my centre stage and imaging which were always great and one of the first things most people would comment on, they both just dissapeared and went down the ****ter, but I've fiddled and played around and with a little help from reading through a thread on another forum written by Abmolech, I've managed to gain I'd say most of my imaging ability back and centre stage has appeared again, but the benifits in I've gained in dynamics, tonality and so on, have been amazing, as I said to my missus the other day it was probably the first time were I've gone wow this sounds like what it should if not better for what it cost.

Luke 


p.s. I actually ended up wiring my opposite side mid range and tweeter out of phase to everything else, and this made a huge improvement.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

AcuraTLSQ said:


> I am glad you could make it. When you are ready to start on the install let us know. October is a BUSY competition month with all the MECA State Finals. After World Finals in November we start getting ready for next year.
> 
> Kirk


I'm pretty sure I'll be taking you up on that offer. I've been thinking alot about going the route you went with your trunk and after hearing your & Ricky's sealed setups I might go that route again. I've been ported for a long time, but want to get some trunk space back.

Thanks again.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> you may want to check out the Genesis Studio 3" Coincidental Midrange/Tweeter.
> It will play from 300hz (@12db/octave) to 30khz.
> Very shallow only about 1.5" deep
> 
> ...


I'll look into those, as well. Thanks for the ideas.


----------



## exmaxima1 (May 31, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Those Audio Technology drivers aren't no joke either.


They certainly aren't shy about their prices!!

http://www.solen.ca/

Click on Audio Technnology


----------



## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

exmaxima1 said:


> They certainly aren't shy about their prices!!
> 
> http://www.solen.ca/
> 
> Click on Audio Technnology


Once I work out logistics...pricing structure will be a little lower for car audio applications...keep in mind...you are getting what you pay for...


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

^ Yea, when Kirk mentioned the price per driver I was dumbfounded.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

My advice if you want to compete, use a brand who supports competition. Regardless of who you use, support those who support the hobby.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The challenge is doing the most with what little you have to work with in the car.

IMO, you should get the physical locations as close to optimal first and foremost. Then tuning with the electrical equipment is going to take yo the rest of the way. With that being said, and having a demo of part of a JBL MS-8 system- front and center channels only in Steve Head's truck, these processors will change car audio and car audio competition forever. 

But yeah, the electrical/phase manipulation with the new processors is going to be where it is at.



npdang said:


> That's very interesting stuff!
> 
> Given that there's only so much you can do with mounting locations and room treatment in a car, do you think that electronic correction is the only path left?
> 
> I'm kinda sorta jaded at this point about equipment... seems that no matter what you use you reach a hard limit unless you're willing to heavily modify the vehicle's interior.


----------



## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> With that being said, and having a demo of part of a JBL MS-8 system- front and center channels only in Steve Head's truck, these processors will change car audio and car audio competition forever.


Why ? Whats different from the MS-8 compared to say the Zapco digi processor?


----------



## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> My advice if you want to compete, use a brand who supports competition. Regardless of who you use, support those who support the hobby.


*lightbulb goes off*

Best advice I've heard yet, and pretty much justifies a lot of what I said in my original bitchpost. 

Zapco LOVES competition, as does Buwalda (naturally). And the upside is that a successful competitor often gets a lot of benefits and other extras from the manufacturer.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The Zapco is a traditional processor- EQ, TA, XO.

The MS-8 does that plus phase manipulation, signal steering, and Logic 7 surround. It will get you and image and stage right out of the box...you'll need to do final tweaking on the EQ, but it will get you so much further out of the box than anything before it. Steve's truck had speakers in the doors with a center channel...but everything sounded it like started at the windshield. I was amazed.

That processor and ones like it (if there ever will be anymore) will take competition cars up a few notches overnight. And the average consumer will see the benefits in sound too.


----------



## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

bdubs767 said:


> Why ? Whats different from the MS-8 compared to say the Zapco digi processor?


two totally different processors/applications...the Zapco DSP6 puts the controls in your hands and is a traditional 2 channel processor.... THE MS-8 configures it's self and uses DSP funtions to gain a coherant frontstage...


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And it is a good way to get into the competition family, learn the game, and have experience team members showing you the ropes...and a support system for tuning, etc.

It was VERY impressive to see the Hybrid guys in action at Finals. Dave Brooks pulled his truck in all dirty, next thing you know, there were 6-8 guys cleaning it and getting it ready to show. Scott and Haji tuning...and it was done.

To me, those kinds of things are important. Everyone there would probably help you, loan you cleaning supplies, tools, etc...but the team gets you all of that and more. Everyone is coming from many different backgrounds, and you learn so much by just hanging out with the guys having fun.



dawgdan said:


> *lightbulb goes off*
> 
> Best advice I've heard yet, and pretty much justifies a lot of what I said in my original bitchpost.
> 
> Zapco LOVES competition, as does Buwalda (naturally). And the upside is that a successful competitor often gets a lot of benefits and other extras from the manufacturer.


----------



## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> My advice if you want to compete, use a brand who supports competition. Regardless of who you use, support those who support the hobby.


Makes sense, not too many companies support it anymore unfortunately. I've actually completely ridded my system of anything supported in the car audio realm. Home DIY drivers, computer source, and amps from a company that no longer exists.:blush: 



thehatedguy said:


> The challenge is doing the most with what little you have to work with in the car.
> 
> IMO, you should get the physical locations as close to optimal first and foremost. Then tuning with the electrical equipment is going to take yo the rest of the way. With that being said, and having a demo of part of a JBL MS-8 system- front and center channels only in Steve Head's truck, these processors will change car audio and car audio competition forever.
> 
> But yeah, the electrical/phase manipulation with the new processors is going to be where it is at.


Why wait, computer and software can trump that MS-8 unit and it's already available. I recently dumped the H701 and went all computer processing a little over a week ago....


I should have done this much much sooner. One word sums it up...yummy. Even as simple as pluging in crossover settings and TA from my H701, it sounds like a whole new system. I haven't even gotten to EQ or I might go room correction, but its miles better already. The phase crossover correction just brought a whole new life to my setup I didn't even know existed. 

downside, initial setup sucks and the interface can be a bit intimidating, but as anything the more you use it, the easier it becomes to use. But doesn't it look cool?


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Carputers aren't the most reliable thing, especially when you need for stuff to aways work. And, from what I understand, the resolution on the sound cards aren't exactly the last word in that regard either.

But yeah, that will be the future of things.

One thing the JBL has over a setup like yours is that the processor with a few mic placements will do all of the adjusting for you in a matter of seconds.


----------



## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> The Zapco is a traditional processor- EQ, TA, XO.
> 
> The MS-8 does that plus phase manipulation, signal steering, and Logic 7 surround. It will get you and image and stage right out of the box...you'll need to do final tweaking on the EQ, but it will get you so much further out of the box than anything before it. Steve's truck had speakers in the doors with a center channel...but everything sounded it like started at the windshield. I was amazed.
> 
> That processor and ones like it (if there ever will be anymore) will take competition cars up a few notches overnight. And the average consumer will see the benefits in sound too.


But you can steer your signal via EQ with a "traditional processor". Sorround sound wont interest most of us, but how does it manipulate the phase? I know it's a great add on w/ your OEM deck, but I dont really understand how it would be better then a P9 combo, zapco digi, ect if the user knows what hes doing? Just trying to understand why you say it's going to change the face of comps.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

While we're talking a bit about competition, from what I've gathered listening and reading, it seems there's an age gap from the mid 30's+ and the young 20s. I don't know if this is true or not; and maybe it's just that the guys who have been in it longer are the ones you hear more about. However, it seems like the veterans are even more willing to help out the young guns now that there needs to be more interest sparked in this "sport".

Of course, this is all my evaluation. I could be completely off here.


----------



## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Carputers aren't the most reliable thing, especially when you need for stuff to aways work. And, from what I understand, the resolution on the sound cards aren't exactly the last word in that regard either.
> 
> But yeah, that will be the future of things.
> 
> One thing the JBL has over a setup like yours is that the processor with a few mic placements will do all of the adjusting for you in a matter of seconds.


True but where is the fun in that. 

Well, I've still trying to make my carpc as reliable as possible. So far it works 99% of the time the way it's supposed to but I'm not going to say hiccups can;t occur. Car audio gear can fail too, the nice thing about a computer is that parts can be replaced at a fraction of the cost of replacing a whole processor or HU if your using the hgih end kinds.

AS far as resolution, Onkyo makes a sound card I'm eying up, the SE-200. Specs and reviews are nothing but fabulous. If I wanted to sell my left and right nuts, I could go with the RME sounds cards. Those are used in recording studios so I think they would have the desired resolution for even the most demanding people.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

O so the things a self tuning unit like the Alpine's imprint....


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

But at that point, you could have saved a ton of money and went with the car based processor...could you not?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

No, you can not do with traditional processors what the JBL MS-8 does. The surround processing in the MS-8 will add a new dimension or 2 to the sound- the side rear fill will add width and the rear fill adds depth with the Logic7 processing the Harmon guys have done.

The user really doesn't have to know what they are doing with the MS-8...it does it for you. Put the mics in a few placements, check a couple options, and in a couple seconds, it is done. And you'll have one helluva car right out of the bat...further than what most guys have gotten in many years of tuning by trial and error.

But to really understand, you need to hear it for yourself...in a car with factory speaker locations. Aftermaket locations like kicks will just take it even further.



bdubs767 said:


> But you can steer your signal via EQ with a "traditional processor". Sorround sound wont interest most of us, but how does it manipulate the phase? I know it's a great add on w/ your OEM deck, but I dont really understand how it would be better then a P9 combo, zapco digi, ect if the user knows what hes doing? Just trying to understand why you say it's going to change the face of comps.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> No, you can not do with traditional processors what the JBL MS-8 does. The surround processing in the MS-8 will add a new dimension or 2 to the sound- the side rear fill will add width and the rear fill adds depth with the Logic7 processing the Harmon guys have done.


So your saying that this thing will make rear fill not sound like ****?


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2007)

In the absence of a dedicated center channel speaker, i think it's safe to say that the MS-8 ultimately does nothing that can't be accomplished with a traditional EQ/xover, especially if that EQ/xover has generous phase control. Of course, the MS-8 will do it automatically after taking dozens of measurements with mics placed at strategic points in the cabin ... but there's no reason to believe the same results can't be achieved with manual tuning.

HOWEVER, where the power of the MS-8 really shines is with a dedicated center channel speaker. The intelligent algorithms of Logic7 will actaully _steer_ info away from the left and right speakers towards the center, deriving a "smart center" that light-years beyond a simple L+R summation. And it will do it "automatically". This result is _not_ achievable with a standard EQ/xover, no matter how flexible it is.

These same comments also apply to dedicated rear channels. In my opinion, it's a misnomer to call this "surround sound", because that phrase has the connotation of movie-watching associated with it. What the MS-8 can do with standard, 2-channel sources promises to be pretty amazing


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You won't know there are rear and side mounted speakers in the car. This isn't your "surround sound add reverb" processor.



bdubs767 said:


> So your saying that this thing will make rear fill not sound like ****?


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2007)

bdubs767 said:


> So your saying that this thing will make rear fill not sound like ****?


many varieties of rear fill _already_ ... if you've experimented with delayed (beyond Haas), bandlimited and appropriately attenuated L-R difference signal sent to the rear, you'll start to get an indication of what Logic7 can do. Even this approach is completely different than what most people call "rear fill", which typically does NOT incorporate the correct delay, difference, or bandlimiting.

For two-channel sources, the goal of "rear fill" should be improved _ambience_, giving the illusion of a much larger listening space, with _no_ bad impact to the front stage. This is very, VERY different from just trying to "fill the cabin with sound".


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> But at that point, you could have saved a ton of money and went with the car based processor...could you not?


My carputer with the software processing and including the screen cost me <$1000. I think I spent somewhere around $800 actually. I also wanted GPS navigation. So could I get a high end HU with almost unlimited processing options/configurations + navigation in a car audio format for $1000? Nope. If I could have I would have, but I had to stick to a budget.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I was including the prices of the studio grade sound cards too...


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

werewolf-

any good references on logic7. I'm not looking for how the MS-8 works, but I would love to read some good resources on Logic7. I'm guessing you have already researched this to some extent or know some "stuff"


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I was including the prices of the studio grade sound cards too...


If I swapped my Audiotrak card for the RME stuff, I haven't dug too far into it, I think that would add in another $600-2000 depending on the number of channels required. I think that is still cheaper than the top end car audio processors that can offer somethign close to resolution of the software/hardware combo..


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

bdubs767 said:


> quote of the year


Agreed.


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## dtviewer (Dec 18, 2006)

durwood said:


> So it can be done even at a cheaper level, just don't get discouraged and have fun with it. If you get caught up in all the politics you will start to get a bad attitude and leave shows feeling sour. And what fun is that? It's a hobby, do what you want with it.



So true! If you need a good example, go listen to the JL Mini. All mid-level JL stuff and it sound wounderful.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The Mini has JL's top of the line speakers in it...


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> The Mini has JL's top of the line speakers in it...


and some of the best installers in the world


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

bdubs767 said:


> So your saying that this thing will make rear fill not sound like ****?


Here's a little inf. from Andy about Logic7 on the MS-8 and what it does to the rear output.

"The center channel becomes very important in a L7 system because the front left, right and center images are steered. Here's how it works (various versions of L7 do this differently, but MS-8 uses steering levels that work best for cars).

Information in a 2-channel mix that's intended to appear in the center is recorded exactly the same in both left and right. L7 sends this to the center and to the right and left, but that signal is attenuated by 6 dB in the right and left speakers. Signals that steer left appear in the left but NOT in the center. Same for right-steered signals. That's why L7 preserves the stage width AND provides a rock-solid center image. Old center-channel techniques were often L+R in the center AND in the left and right at the same level. That's a recipe for a narrow stage.

Signals in the recording that are out of phase in left and right are steered to the rear. This isn't some new bright idea, it's designed to extract ambience cues from recordings where those cues exist. *If the cues don't exist, the rear speakers don't play much of anything.* If you listen to a recording with a lot of ambience, the rear speakers can be quite loud."


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Regarding the JL Mini, even though it may be their ZR series speakers..

I can't help but wonder what something like Hertz Space speakers paired up with Zapco i-Force amps would be like.  Add in a great processor, lots of deadening, and a great tune. Budget lines from high-end manufacturers, plus a LOT of work put into the install.


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## dtviewer (Dec 18, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> The Mini has JL's top of the line speakers in it...


OOops-you are right!!! Was thinking of the speakers in the Legacy GT wagon.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I may have brand preferences, but I don't discount any brand or level of brand's equipment on sunday. On any given sunday, anyone can win with any equipment.



dawgdan said:


> Regarding the JL Mini, even though it may be their ZR series speakers..
> 
> I can't help but wonder what something like Hertz Space speakers paired up with Zapco i-Force amps would be like.  Add in a great processor, lots of deadening, and a great tune. Budget lines from high-end manufacturers, plus a LOT of work put into the install.


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## SQrules (May 25, 2007)

Bikinpunk- It was great to hang out with you at the BBQ at Kirk's. We really need to get more new blood interested into this sport. How about them steaks? 2" thick 26oz huge slabs of ribeyes.
Wish you could have made it to Boaz. We had a huge turnout with over 40 competitors and 21 in SQ. Even raffeled off some sweet Zapco seperates that were donated by Zapco.

David Hogan


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I may have brand preferences, but I don't discount any brand or level of brand's equipment on sunday. On any given sunday, anyone can win with any equipment.


 Very good! 




dtviewer said:


> So true! If you need a good example, go listen to the JL Mini. All mid-level JL stuff and it sound wounderful.


IIRC, it did use the budget level amps. I've heard the budget level JL amps in a few cars that sounded great- they do what they need to do.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SQrules said:


> Bikinpunk- It was great to hang out with you at the BBQ at Kirk's. We really need to get more new blood interested into this sport. How about them steaks? 2" thick 26oz huge slabs of ribeyes.
> Wish you could have made it to Boaz. We had a huge turnout with over 40 competitors and 21 in SQ. Even raffeled off some sweet Zapco seperates that were donated by Zapco.
> 
> David Hogan


I know, man. All day I was trying to decide I wanted to go. I just needed to save money. Especially if I'm going to be putting some more $ into my system. 

Those steaks were HUGE!

I enjoyed meeting you guys. My friend and I both couldn't quit talking about how good the cars sounded. You guys have actually turned my opinions on competing completely around, so I just might try to give it a go in Nashville this year if I can at least get my install cleaned up. Look forward to seeing you all soon. Maybe I can get some install help in the next few months. 

- Erin


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## SQrules (May 25, 2007)

If you mean give it a go in Nashville, by entering the event, then you will have to get 35 points to qualify first. Just letting you know before you go all out trying to get everything done before Finals in Nov. There is a chance you could get your points, but you would have to kick some but and travel a lot. Either way I hope to see you there!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SQrules said:


> If you mean give it a go in Nashville, by entering the event, then you will have to get 35 points to qualify first. Just letting you know before you go all out trying to get everything done before Finals in Nov. There is a chance you could get your points, but you would have to kick some but and travel a lot. Either way I hope to see you there!


Whoa! Didn't know that. Well, count me out of competing then. 

Buuut, I'll still try my best to make it to the event anyway. Hopefully there'll be somewhat of a turnout by the DIYMA guys there.

I'll definately look for you when I get there. 

Thanks for the heads up.

*gotta start reading the rules*


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> The user really doesn't have to know what they are doing with the MS-8...it does it for you. Put the mics in a few placements, check a couple options, and in a couple seconds, it is done. And you'll have one helluva car right out of the bat...further than what most guys have gotten in many years of tuning by trial and error.


If that is the case, then it probably shouldn't be allowed in competition. It's bad enough that some people who compete have other people install their gear and tune their cars; having tuning done by a machine takes the human element completely out of the competition and makes it pointless.

I can see how this would be a wonderful tool for a non-competitor though...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

There will still be fine tuning done on the EQ though, and this will seperate the good cars from the really good cars.


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## pikers (Oct 21, 2007)

bdubs767 said:


> I LOVE THAT TRACK....another one I LOVE is "Putting on the Ritz" at the end when the girl walking, it sound as if shes walking from outside of the left of your car onto your dash right across it then out to the right of your car.


Rainbowing is good now?


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

lol, he didn't say she stood on the armrest and climbed up the steering wheel to the dash, walked across, then rappelled down to the other armrest...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

HEY! Let it die!


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Here's a little inf. from Andy about Logic7 on the MS-8 and what it does to the rear output.
> 
> "The center channel becomes very important in a L7 system because the front left, right and center images are steered. Here's how it works (various versions of L7 do this differently, but MS-8 uses steering levels that work best for cars).
> 
> ...



What frequency are most ambient sounds? Would a midbass work best back there?


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

dawgdan said:


> I'm gonna veer off topic a little bit, sorry bikinpunk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I here you guy. I've been, paron my French "****ing around" with this stuff for 20 years part time. I've made some damn nice sounding vehicles. And recently have spent some bux on equipment as budget allows. However, I feel I have not reached the pinnicle of car audio. What does it take for God sakes!!!

Ge0


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

i think install can only go so far. almost anyone can do one, just by seeing how the pros do it. assuming everyone's going to have tamed the resonance through deadening, and have sealed the doors, or have vented the kicks so the speaker has the optimum enclosure that it needs, and has a noise free signal going to the speakers from clean amps, the only thing left is the sound of the speaker itself. a dayton woofer may be the best sounding speaker you can get for $30, but a Dynaudio or a Seas Lotus just sounds better. Sure it's 10x the price, but to win, you have to sound the best. So, you get what you have at IASCA shows. It's just the difference in 'great for the money', and just outright 'great'.

Also, if you're not competing, and listen to your music while driving, I'd spend more money on getting a quiet vehicle first, and let the speakers come second. Besides, the longer you wait, the better chance you have of someone unloading some nice drivers for a good price so they can try something else


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## Matt R (Aug 29, 2007)

I think what the common theme is that all the revelators in the world won't sound good unless they're used properly. I've heard systems that sounded like **** with some of the best equipment in the world. I've also heard systems with mid-fi equipment that sounded really good. 

All the steps are very important from design, equipment choice, install and tuning. Most people that skimp on something skimp on install. If you mess up on any of these things it will make the next step very hard or nearly impossible to complete.

If you want the best results you have to have a very well thought out system design, pick compatable equipment, Install it all optimally, and spend alot of time tuning. Even the best tuners can't make something sound good if the install isn't right.

Matt


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

It seems people tend to forget that in car audio, the vehicles interior and the location and positioning of the drivers are the hands down most dominating factors in determing how your system will sound. Compare the impulse response of any driver or piece of equipment to that of the car, and you can easily see this.

I also find that the biggest problem with how people think about building their system is that they generalize. Too little understanding of how things work on a fundamental level, and too much generalizing. You can see this when people throw around terms like amp power ratios, or when they can somehow glean from a set of small signal parameters exactly how some speaker is going to sound.

But, following on my first point I think that carputers are the way of the future. Somehow finding a way to correct both the time and frequency domains in a car, and making it sound like a large well treated room


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Hey Durwood... you're using some ghetto plugins 

Check out audio lense...

http://www.juicehifi.com/index.html


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

npdang said:


> Hey Durwood... you're using some ghetto plugins
> 
> Check out audio lense...
> 
> http://www.juicehifi.com/index.html


^ Is that a carputer program? Or a measuring program?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

What it does is measure the impulse response of your setup, then generates a filter you can use with any number of convolvers to "tune" your setup. Not only does it have infinitely many more options to tweak than the Alpine h650, but it will also apply a highpass/lowpass to the response which can be as steep as a half octave brickwall cutoff. IIRC, it will even insert delay into the filter to time align your drivers. You could also do the same thing using DRC, but the interface is perhaps not as easy to use, and you would still need a crossover.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

lil bumpage for da good stuff


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## Vega-LE (Feb 22, 2009)

a$$hole said:


> lil bumpage for da good stuff


Whatever happened to your pal, werewolf?..


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