# Silver Flutes = Smooth, Low, Happiness



## mojozoom

I just switched from Hertz ESK drivers to 6.5" Silver Flutes from Madisound, and wow what a difference.

They go much lower, so I cross at 65 Hz now, which really reduces some of the sub localization.

Piano and sax are so much smoother than with the Hertz drivers. Really nice. For $70 a pair shipped I'm overjoyed with these.


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## kizz

glad to hear you like them. how is the midbass punch?


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## schmiddr2

From reading some wise peoples posts, it seems a lot of the _punch_ comes from the time alignment/crossover between subs and mids. So if they go low I would assume they can be made to have _punch_. And with 5mm xmax I see why he says they play low.

Link to them for ease of research: The Madisound Speaker Store


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## mojozoom

They have a much harder punch then my Hertz ESK's did. The door panel, side mirror, and floor are all shaking more then before with each bass drum hit, but I'm also crossing them at 65 Hz instead of the 75 that the Hertz units struggled with.

I just beat on them for 4 hours straight and am even more impressed. I stumbled into a track on a Chemical Brothers disc that was a low sine sweep drop that was really amazing on these Flutes.

I'll be modding to door panel soon to cut out the lame factory plastic grill and then I'll post some more on the results. I suppose I can run some near field sweeps on them with a flat eq so you can see what their curve starts out like in a typical door install.


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## SPLEclipse

I'm using the 8" versions in my build (see '00 Neon Dash Build in the build log section) and just had a chance to hear them today and I'm blown away! I had them mounted IB in the doors before and they weren't all that great, but this is much better. Pic below for setup; they're in about .5 ft^3 sealed running 200hz and down (yes, all the way down) for now, I haven't done any tuning beyond basic levels and crossover settings.

I only have one powered for now but can feel a distinct "snap" in the top of my chest and neck on stuff like Jamiroquai. Glad you're enjoying yours as well!


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## mojozoom

I've heard that the 5" versions are impressive as well.

I remembered the Chemical Brothers track - it's "Under The Influence". Give it a whirl, but test the waters at 1/3 volume first. I had to make a quick grab for the volume control as it comes out of nowhere.


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## Horsemanwill

can't wait till i get my dual 6.5s in my doors.


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## steppinrazer

I bought a set of the 6.5"s over the holidays with some seas tweets. I've been running them with some old eclipse passive xovers and a Niles si-275 in some small enclosures on my workbench. They sound fantastic and have some pretty awesome kick to them.
I've been assembling components to run these active, undecided if they will go in the doors or some kickpanels.
You can't go wrong for 30$ each..


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## Guest

These Silver Flute speakers are very nice sounding drivers.... I think the wool cone is a strong reason.


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## mojozoom

I know some people don't entirely beleive the freq response curve for these that's posted on the Madisound site, so I did a quick near field measurement today with one of the Flutes installed in my drivers door.

Absolutely amazing results. The black line is the data posted by Madisound, and the green line is my test. I never expected them to be this close, especially in a car door install.


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## SPLEclipse

mojozoom said:


> I know some people don't entirely beleive the freq response curve for these that's posted on the Madisound site, so I did a quick near field measurement today with one of the Flutes installed in my drivers door.
> 
> Absolutely amazing results. The black line is the data posted by Madisound, and the green line is my test. I never expected them to be this close, especially in a car door install.


Thanks! That looks really good. There's lots of talk about these drivers but not a lot of technical data.


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## ZAKOH

All this sounds almost too good to be true.

How is the midrange clarity? The speakers qts suggests it's optimized for ported enclosure. I wonder if that impacts the sound in door in any way. Was frequency response measured on axis?


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## thehatedguy

If you are 2x above Fs, the don't worry about the T/S parameters like Qts.


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## SPLEclipse

ZAKOH said:


> All this sounds almost too good to be true.
> 
> How is the midrange clarity? The speakers qts suggests it's optimized for ported enclosure. I wonder if that impacts the sound in door in any way. Was frequency response measured on axis?


I know the 8" (W20RC38) version has a listed QTC of .23, but I've seen it measured at about .4


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## avanti1960

Nice review, glad you found success. I had these for a while and they were very muddy with a lack of midrange clarity. 
Not bad for 30 bucks but easily beaten by other (granted more expensive) components and DIY drivers.


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## mojozoom

I look at the Flutes as a budget solution, and I'd expect that they sound like one when compared to higher end drivers.

They have much cleaner midrange than my Hertz drivers did. The Hertz units tended to make vocals and sax sound slightly “canned”, and were bloated in the 200 Hz area so they got pretty muddy, plus they didn't reach low enough so I had to use my sub more than I wanted to.

Now here’s a real novelty. In the graph below you can compare the installed characteristic of the Hertz (orange) and the Flutes (blue), taken from the left side driver measured at my left ear. Dyns or HATs wouldn't look much different in my car, so I'd have a hard time throwing much $$ at drivers when they are all going to end up sounding like this:










That, and I'm cheap


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## Jroo

I think I going to try these. I have the large Vifa XT25's that were the rage in the hot deals about a year ago. Ive been sitting on a set of biamp Mb quart passive xovers that are 18db slopes at 2500hz. If I can get the tweet more on axis with a cup of some sort, I think the Silver Flutes might make a killer cheap set. 

In a treated door, do you think I would have any issues getting them down to about 70hz? In my case they will basically be IB in the door with dynamat. 70 is basically the max I think my 18w6 will allow.


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## indytrucks

I'll be giving them a shot.


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## Horsemanwill

i have mine set at 63 with a 36 db slope right now and they are handling it fine.


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## mojozoom

I've got mine crossed at 65 Hz with a 24 db slope and they seem to be plenty happy. I'm putting about 75 rms to them though, active.


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## oldschool4me

interesting. i thought about getting some of those as the specs looked good and price tag was as well.


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## bbnatrl

Do you recommend building an enclosure for the 6.5"s in the kick panel area or just running them infinite baffle type in the kick vented to the outside. Mid/highs will be ID horns (pro).. so these are mid bass duty specifically with alot of power going to em. Trying to stay away from installing/cutting the doors (69 El Camino).


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## mojozoom

I'd do some WinISD modeling before building your enclosures to see what to expect. Mine are mounted to the door in typical fashion, so should be essentially IB. I know they work well this way, delivering close to the advertised FR curve.


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## avanti1960

Since i had a pair of these lying around i modeled them assuming my doors were 2cuft enclosures (their actual volume). 
The F3 bass roll-off frequency of the silver flues was an awfully high 153Hz. No wonder they sounded weak and lifeless in my application. 
Contrast that to my HAT Imagines (95Hz) and the stunning Dayton RS 180 (58Hz)


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## mojozoom

It looks like the F3 of the flutes in my doors is right at about 60 hz. That's working well with my 65 hz crossover point.

I just finished up revising my TA to better sync with the sub, and now the bass in my car is excellent. Especially considering the two mids and sub together cost a total of $120.


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## indytrucks

Mine sound meh so far. My fault though. I still need to finish my door deadening and get some more tuning in.


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## mojozoom

I've got the outer skin fully covered, and most of the inner skin as well. I've also got a Deflex pad behind them glued over the sound deadener. Can't hurt. They're pretty cheap, and can't take on water like a foam could.


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## axiom26

Has anyone tried a 3 way setup using these woofers? I've been thinking about picking up a pair of CDT EX30 crossover, 5" SilverFlute woofer for the midrange and the 6.5 or 8" in the door as the woofer, not decided on tweeter but maybe one of the Vifa ring tweeters. 

5" and tweeter would be in a sealed up kickpanel similar to Qlogic but deaden with hardening puddy and mdf baffle/brace and the woofer would be in a deaden somewhat sealed up door.

Really with all the drivers and the Xover it would be well under $400.


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## mojozoom

I'm going to get some of the 5" Silver Flutes as well to put in my 68 AMX. I've got a few crossovers lying around - pretty much anything is workable with the Flutes since they can run so high. Just need to find a nice set of tweeters with angle mounts.


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## Brian Steele

avanti1960 said:


> Since i had a pair of these lying around i modeled them assuming my doors were 2cuft enclosures (their actual volume).
> The F3 bass roll-off frequency of the silver flues was an awfully high 153Hz. No wonder they sounded weak and lifeless in my application.
> Contrast that to my HAT Imagines (95Hz) and the stunning Dayton RS 180 (58Hz)


Did you include the effect of the car's transfer function in your modelling?


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## avanti1960

Brian Steele said:


> Did you include the effect of the car's transfer function in your modelling?


no- just using the numbers as a relative comparison between the drivers.


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## mojozoom

The doors on my Mazda3 measure out to approximately 2.0 cu ft as well, and the F3 I get from actual near field measurement is 60 Hz.

I don't think you can model a typical car door as a sealed box and get accurate results. Most people seem to look at them as IB installations, but I don't know how to get Winisd to do IB. When I make the box really large it doesn't seem to influence the result much.

It's possible that the published specs on the drivers are incorrect as well.


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## avanti1960

mojozoom said:


> The doors on my Mazda3 measure out to approximately 2.0 cu ft as well, and the F3 I get from actual near field measurement is 60 Hz.
> 
> I don't think you can model a typical car door as a sealed box and get accurate results. Most people seem to look at them as IB installations, but I don't know how to get Winisd to do IB. When I make the box really large it doesn't seem to influence the result much.
> 
> It's possible that the published specs on the drivers are incorrect as well.


understood. however since i am tired of trying drivers based on word of mouth and other review related info i decided to try and model the response as if the doors were sealed enclosures. they are fairly tight if you do a good job of sealing them and have the window up. 
for a lot of drivers, especially DIY, you can see a correlation. i have run (3) different 6.5" drivers in my doors, the silver flutes, focal 165V30 and the HAT imagines l6. when modeled they have approximate F3s of 142Hz, 72 Hz and 97 Hz respectively. 
all seem to bear this out when you hear them installed. 
i liked the focals and they did play lower but they also had a bad resonance peak. 
if you model larger e.g. 8" drivers you start seeing lower F3 numbers. it is what you would expect. 
i modeled many 6.5 drivers and the one with the lowest F3 is the Dayton rs180- F3 of 53 Hz. many people love the bass these have. unfortunately they are too deep for my doors. 
i am seriously considering the dynaudio esotec 172. they are a smaller 8" driver and they show an F3 of 63 Hz. 
it may not be a direct apples to apples comparison nor does this number predict every sound characteristic of the driver but it is a basis for comparison as opposed to just trying drivers with only the information of other's experiences which include so many variables.


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## TrickyRicky

I know there's a couple of vendors/websites out there, but which do you guys recommend buying these from?

I want to try them out (both in car and shelfs) but wanted opinions in who has the best price and overall customer service. Thanks.


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## Horsemanwill

The Madisound Speaker Store

that's where I got mine from


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## mojozoom

Me too. They were $70 shipped and came in 4 days, packaged perfectly with form fitting styrofoam.


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## mojozoom

It's probably worth mentioning here that I looked at both the RS 180 and the Silver Flutes initially. My Hertz tweets were originally crossed at 3500 hz, and the RS 180 is only rated to 2200 Hz, plus I've seen independant tests that indicate its FR gets nutty above 1200 Hz.

The RS 180 is only rated for 60 watts rms while the Flute is rated for 80 watts, and there is also the price difference - the RS 180 costs 70% more then the Flute.

So in a 3-way the RS 180 is a no brainer if you have the depth, but in a 2-way it would be tougher to match up with some tweeters.


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## indytrucks

As my flutes break in they are sounding much nicer. I'm very pleased with them so far. Still have some tweaking and door work to do but so far, I would recommend people give these a shot for sure. Worst case scenario, you don't like them, resell them on here and don't end up losing a bunch in resale value.


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## Heterosapian

Madisound is awesome. I bought a pair of silver flute 6.5" 4ohm units and blew one up in the first day - probably my fault though the other side did just fine with the same setup. Anyway, I contacted madisound and they sent a new woofer out to me inside of a few days, free of charge. They have my business for life.

PS, I love them. I actually ditched a pair of dyn mw163gts for them. I should say the dyns will hold more power without distorting but only just, and I was trying to beat the life out of my midbasses and didn't want to be on the hook for $300-400 if I blew a woofer. The flutes have held the 150+ watts rms I've been giving them for a year now, highpassed at 80 Hz 12db/oct in the sealed and deadened doors of my 98 Jetta.


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## TrickyRicky

Good to read that, i just placed my order for a pair. Can't wait to try them, worse casescenario I'll remove them from my vehicle and build a small sealed enclosure for them.


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## TrickyRicky

Got mine yesterday, nicely packed. Am thinking of doing a 3 way with these as i bought some 5.25" (600 -8khz) and couple if pairs of small 1" tweeters (made in France, 6khz-20khz), the silver flutes will be 60hz -2khz, i just haven't figured out the slopes and if i want to go active or passive . Any recommendations, i can use all the help i can get.

- Silver Flute W17RC38-08 6-1/2" Wool Cone
w17rc38-08

- Aurasound NS525-255-8A 5.25" Paper Cone 8 Ohm
ns525-255-8a

- Audax TM010A1 Neodymium Car Tweeter 4 Ohm (will wire them series to create a 8 Ohm load

This was a all under 100 bucks, without passive crossovers (that's why i might go active.)


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## axiom26

I was going to use a set of CDT EX30 passives for my Silver Flute 3way. All silver flute woofers 6.5 and 5.25 for the mid plus maybe the Vifa ring rad tweeter. I think the xover points for the passive is 250 and 5k.


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## TrickyRicky

If the graph on post #10 is what to expect from the silver flutes, then would the 5.25" be even needed, just hope they blends well at 6khz.


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## mojozoom

I stumbled across this today - it looks like the SIlver Flute 6.5" woofer was used in the the original Gemme Tanto speaker set. They retailed at $5,500 a pair and were evidently worth every penny.

Gemme Audio Tanto Review


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## metanium

mojozoom said:


> I stumbled across this today - it looks like the SIlver Flute 6.5" woofer was used in the the original Gemme Tanto speaker set. They retailed at $5,500 a pair and were evidently worth every penny.
> 
> Gemme Audio Tanto Review


The 8-incher is used in the same fashion (2-way no low-pass and single cap for high-pass) by Decware.

Decware's Audiophile High Efficiency Bookshelf Loudspeaker / Model DM945


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## Hanatsu

http://www.stereomojo.com/Tanto%20Review/GemmeAudioTantoReview.htm

That tweeter looks like a Vifa XT25... hm


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## mojozoom

They said it was an XT19. I like those Decware's - that looks like something I could build.


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## indytrucks

I took mine out of the car (selling it) now I want to make some home speakers with them. Anyone know of any good plans? I also have the xt25 to use with them.


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## mojozoom

If you could research how to copy that original Gemme Tanto design I'd be right with you. It's some sort of horn / transmission line hybrid that'll run the Flute's to 20 hz.


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## mojozoom

I found some T/S parameters on the P/E website that a guy had measured. Here's what he found:

Drive Unit Parameters	
Silver Flute W17RC38S-4	
Fs	50.56	Hz
Re 3.81	Ohm
Qms	2.08	
Qes	0.55	
Sd	132.0	cm2
Vas	15.1	l
Xmax peak	5.00	mm
Le	0.41	mH
Le2	0.00	mH
Re2	0.00	Ohm
Nominal Power	20.0	W


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## steppinrazer

I finished up deadening and sealing my doors this evening. With minimal time to tune/listen i was pretty impressed with the lower end on these. For now they are crossed at 63 and 3.2k 24db slope.


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## niceguy

Yeah deadening is crucial with these as with any install....I had a pair running in my old van install over 5 years ago


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## ChevyHHRSS400

Im curious about trying these drivers and going active
What crossover points are recommended? Also anyone running these in 3way setups?
Or just active 2way which tweeters work well with these?

Currently running alpine spx series


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## ChevyHHRSS400

anyone have any input on tweeters ? or least crossover points?


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## SPLEclipse

ChevyHHRSS400 said:


> anyone have any input on tweeters ? or least crossover points?


Which size? My 8"s are crossed from 50-180 with L-R 24db/oct filters on both sides. With limited gain they can go down lower, but I like it a tad on the loud side...and they are also in small sealed enclosures (.4 ft^3 per driver).

The naturally start to roll off around 1khz on the high end, and do so at a pretty shallow rate, around 6db/oct. My install is very different though, so any high-frequency measurements won't be applicable to a typical door install.

I would generally not recommend using just a tweet with the 8"s, but a small widebander would work very well.


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## TrickyRicky

Am waiting for my damping material to arrive so I can install them, I have the 6.5". I bought four Audax TM010A1, so hopefully I can use two for each side but looks like they need to be crossed at 6khz. The Flutes should play up to 5khz, so am hoping that will be enough.


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## ChevyHHRSS400

Could the 8 be crossed over closer to 325hz? I have Trinity drivers to use
Just want more low end than my Ebony driver can handle


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## SPLEclipse

ChevyHHRSS400 said:


> Could the 8 be crossed over closer to 325hz? I have Trinity drivers to use
> Just want more low end than my Ebony driver can handle


I would feel very comfortable doing that. I've seen them paired with just a tweet in at least one design, but that's in a home application where you have much more control over the response.


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## Hanatsu

This driver seems to be very interesting. I'm looking for new drivers for midbass duty in AP or Sealed enclosures to fit inside a door. Perhaps 0,3ft³ maximum enclosure volume, when I model them they seem to work fine. Impedance phase seems to be nice and smooth, almost as good as Dayton Rs180, they should be easy for the amp to drive.

Mojo, how's your impression of the lows with these drivers now when you've used them for a while?


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## mojozoom

I still really like them. I also still can't beleive you can get this much for $30 per driver.

At this point I'm running 2-way and crossing at 2500 at the top and 65 hz at the bottom. This brought the stage down a bit from the 3750 x-over I had before, but gave me a little better imaging as I have the Flutes in the doors.

And they will pound when you want them to. Mt Eden has four remix versions of Sierra Leone available thru Amazon now, and the 4th track (which is more of a house mix) hits clean and hard over and over and the Flutes love it. I love it.

I am considering adding a midrange in the kick for a 3-way system, in order to allow crossovers that occur before beaming. Got my eye on the Aura Whisper at this point.


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## Hanatsu

I've decided on the 8ohm version. The T/S parameters fit my application more. Can't believe how good they model in a 6 lit (0,21ft³) vented box, might actually try a vented application in the door with Fb around 55Hz...

Too bad they don't cost $30/driver in Sweden, they sell them for twice the price here. Everything is expensive as crap in Sweden... My P99 retails for $2200 here, you got about half that price in the US lol.


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## Mless5

I echo original poster's sentiments: extremely smooth, stout midbass, great clarity without being harsh anywhere in the range. Have them on 55wrms per channel of Audison and they sing. Only had to tick down 2kHz 2 clicks and that is all. Using Audison crossover so it is hard to tell exact point, but I would guess ~75-3500 is the range they are supposed to play. I am absolutely loving these! Pretty heavy drivers with a large frame - plan accordingly. Excellent build quality to boot! 4ohm version by the way.


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## steelwindmachine

I currently have coax Morel Temp Ultra Integras in my 2014 Sorento's lower front doors and am contemplating replacing them with a component set and going active with an all-in-one DSP/amp.

I can get the Morel Maximo 6 (6.5") component set for $140.

Does going with the Silver Flutes and a Madiosound/MCM/Parts-Express sourced tweeter potentially give more bang for the buck?

I'm looking at the lowered powered DSP/Amps, so am not looking for a ton of power, maybe 50-100 watts per channel.

I might try the Dayton LS10-144 too.


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## Mless5

Start with going active using your existing drivers, find their limitations and upgrade accordingly.


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