# Road noise, engine noise, wind noise...



## meisguy (Jan 16, 2009)

These are the 3 main forces we battle with constantly in car audio. Out of all of them, which do you beleive the hardest is to deal with? 

I've used foam, vinyl, mat, parts of a memory foam mattress, spray deadner... you get the point, with fairly good results. Not spectacular. I think the weak link for me has always been wind noise. Probably the weak point in any car because you're stuck with the 1/4 inch glass everywhere. Also all the rubber surrounds in the door jams and all the seams. I've been thinking about taking a page out of the SPL playbook. Accuiring a vehicle that has minimal windows. Replacing the windsheild with much thicker glass, and using concrete where applicable. Has anyone ever done an SQ daily driver like this? It just seems logical to me. In home audio I've seen guys drop 10 grand on a blueprint for a room design. Then 50 grand to build it if not more! Instead of spending 15 grand on car audio equipment it seems like a much better idea to spend it on the room(vehicle). I know that this would rule out 95% of vehicles as a platform. Probably have to go with a van or truck of some type. I would imagine road noise from the use of big tires would increase. What about a prius? Probably couldnt handle the added weight, but engine and road noise would be minimal. Hopefully I'm not the only one thinking like this. Obviously we will never create an anechoic chamber on wheels, but I would seriously like to get as close as i can.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

meisguy said:


> These are the 3 main forces we battle with constantly in car audio. Out of all of them, which do you beleive the hardest is to deal with?
> 
> I've used foam, vinyl, mat, parts of a memory foam mattress, spray deadner... you get the point, with fairly good results. Not spectacular. I think the weak link for me has always been wind noise. Probably the weak point in any car because you're stuck with the 1/4 inch glass everywhere. Also all the rubber surrounds in the door jams and all the seams. I've been thinking about taking a page out of the SPL playbook. Accuiring a vehicle that has minimal windows. Replacing the windsheild with much thicker glass, and using concrete where applicable. Has anyone ever done an SQ daily driver like this? It just seems logical to me. In home audio I've seen guys drop 10 grand on a blueprint for a room design. Then 50 grand to build it if not more! Instead of spending 15 grand on car audio equipment it seems like a much better idea to spend it on the room(vehicle). I know that this would rule out 95% of vehicles as a platform. Probably have to go with a van or truck of some type. I would imagine road noise from the use of big tires would increase. What about a prius? Probably couldnt handle the added weight, but engine and road noise would be minimal. Hopefully I'm not the only one thinking like this. Obviously we will never create an anechoic chamber on wheels, but I would seriously like to get as close as i can.



I use absolutely no sound deadening in my car, and here's why:

Peak SPL Calculator

Imagine the various surfaces in your car radiating sound. The windows are passing sound from outside of the car, the tires are radiating noise due to vibration, and the panels of the car are flexing. Each one of these are a radiator, and they're all contributing to the noise level in the vehicle.

Now eliminate one of these radiators, and look at the result in the calculator.

You'll see a VERY slight reduction; perhaps a fraction of a decibel.

That's why I gave up on sound deadening. Even if you were able to reduce the volume of EVERY radiator in the car by 25%, the reduction in SPL is just a few dB.

Here's a couple of things that have worked for me:


Car and Driver publishes ambient SPL figures for the cars they review. The results are kind of amazing; for instance a Honda Fit is something like 10dB louder than a Civic. That's a hyoooooooge difference.
If you're really serious about this stuff, go to Hertz and rent the next car you want to buy, and measure the SPL level yourself
I've noticed that horn and waveguide loaded speakers "drown out" road noise a lot better than direct radiators. I don't really know why this is, but it's very noticeable.


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## bobduch (Jul 22, 2005)

And from the opposite extreme...
I find road noise to be the biggest culpret.
Start with tire rack and their tire tests.
Go for a quieter tire.
I used rubberized spray undercoating on the outside of the wheel wells and Scosche barrier on the inside of the wells and floor (Odyssey van) as well as deadening materials all the way around. Got a 3db reduction on the concrete highway near my house at 70mph. Of course my 530 is still 4db quieter with nothing added.
Bottom line is all of this will be vehicle specific. BTW, I chuckled when I saw the words concrete and logical on the same line. And if your going to get custom thick glass windows etc. why not just buy a quiet car to start with?


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

there was a cougar done once with a concrete box built into the trunk. he redid his suspension with that from a f150 if i remember right and it was a sq car.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

bobduch said:


> why not just buy a quiet car to start with?


+1! That's the best approach. Buy something quiet and simply improve on that as needed. That's what I'll be doing from here on out.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> I use absolutely no sound deadening in my car, and here's why:
> 
> Peak SPL Calculator
> 
> ...


hmmm....

I'm not sure where to start with this, Patrick.
On the whole, I'll say that I disagree with not using sound control treatments in a car that you feel needs it. 
Comparing sound to heat, in that it gets through wherever it can, is a point I often use but it's usefulness is still there.
After laying some LLP in my car the ambient road noise subsided quite a bit. I don't have calculations, but the result was highly noticeable.

If anything, I'd say the link you provided has done more to prove why you would want to quieten your car rather than not. A driver is only capable of so much?... is that the point you were trying to get to? If so, the flip side is simply this: a lower ambient noise reduces stress on your drivers due to you not needing to overcome the environment via volume. 


I'm not really sure what point you were trying to make here. 



Having said that, the last bit about using car test reviews for SPL readings is a very good one. Goes with the above recommendations to simply look into buying a quieter car initially.
I'll also venture a bit further and say that in some cases, I'm quite sure there are 'point of diminishing returns' (ie: luxury cars that have a lot of OEM engineering into sound control).


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

It was my understanding that glass does a better job at blocking sound than sheet metal. I'd still agree that wind noise is the hardest to deal with, but only because you can't really get rid of things like side view mirrors or obstacles such as guard rails, walls or trees that reflect the wind noise back towards the vehicle. Road noise and engine noise can both be controlled much easier as these things can be corrected from within the vehicle. I think I am better at sound control now that I've realized which materials to use in each situation. The right tool for the job, so to speak. Trying to control resonance, use deadener, trying to block sound, use closed cell foam and mass loaded vinyl, trying to keep panels from vibrating, make them fit tight with foam between the panel and the door, trying to control reflections, use absorbing materials like egg crate foam, carpet etc.




meisguy said:


> These are the 3 main forces we battle with constantly in car audio. Out of all of them, which do you beleive the hardest is to deal with?
> 
> I've used foam, vinyl, mat, parts of a memory foam mattress, spray deadner... you get the point, with fairly good results. Not spectacular. I think the weak link for me has always been wind noise. Probably the weak point in any car because you're stuck with the 1/4 inch glass everywhere. Also all the rubber surrounds in the door jams and all the seams. I've been thinking about taking a page out of the SPL playbook. Accuiring a vehicle that has minimal windows. Replacing the windsheild with much thicker glass, and using concrete where applicable. Has anyone ever done an SQ daily driver like this? It just seems logical to me. In home audio I've seen guys drop 10 grand on a blueprint for a room design. Then 50 grand to build it if not more! Instead of spending 15 grand on car audio equipment it seems like a much better idea to spend it on the room(vehicle). I know that this would rule out 95% of vehicles as a platform. Probably have to go with a van or truck of some type. I would imagine road noise from the use of big tires would increase. What about a prius? Probably couldnt handle the added weight, but engine and road noise would be minimal. Hopefully I'm not the only one thinking like this. Obviously we will never create an anechoic chamber on wheels, but I would seriously like to get as close as i can.


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## rommelrommel (Apr 11, 2007)

I have no evidence or anything to cite about this, but I was told by a person I consider very reputable that the bullet resistant glass coatings on the market reduce transmitted noise to a significant degree.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

I haven't seen it mentioned on this site but those of us that drive big ass bricks l**** my truck have been fighting wind noise for years. One of the best solutions to date is to pull off all your rubber surrounds from the doors then insert flexible tubing into the inside....provided yours are hollow like mine are. I assume most are. 
The clear plastic stuff tends to flatten out and lose its effectiveness after a while....surgical tubing seems to last a really long time.....mine are going on 4 years now.

I used 3/8" tubing but the size of your surrounds will dictate what you can get away with. Too small and it's pointless...too big and it firms up the surround so much the doors don't wanna close.

WD40 or dish soap really make getting the tubing into the surround easy.
It's worth a shot if wind noise is driving you nuts.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

UNBROKEN said:


> I haven't seen it mentioned on this site but those of us that drive big ass bricks l**** my truck have been fighting wind noise for years. One of the best solutions to date is to pull off all your rubber surrounds from the doors then insert flexible tubing into the inside....provided yours are hollow like mine are. I assume most are.
> The clear plastic stuff tends to flatten out and lose its effectiveness after a while....surgical tubing seems to last a really long time.....mine are going on 4 years now.
> 
> I used 3/8" tubing but the size of your surrounds will dictate what you can get away with. Too small and it's pointless...too big and it firms up the surround so much the doors don't wanna close.
> ...


So you deadened the door seals? Never heard of that but I want to try it. Surgical tubing is made of rubber, correct?


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

I wouldn't call it deadening them per se...more like firming them up so the seal is tighter.
I'm not sure exactly what the surgical tubing is made of...but it seems to be more flexible and hold it's shape longer than the cheap clear stuff from the hardware store.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> hmmm....
> 
> I'm not sure where to start with this, Patrick.
> On the whole, I'll say that I disagree with not using sound control treatments in a car that you feel needs it.
> ...


 I have a friend with the same exact vehicle as mine except no sound deadening whatsoever in his. I want to a/b the road noise between vehicles with a laptop and measurement mic. Our tires are not the same so that would be a variable but it's something I've talked to him about doing. Maybe this thread will motivate me to actually do it.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

why am I always the "THREAD KILLER"? lol.


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## Menace Kustoms (Jan 31, 2010)

This is good, I'm trying to make the same decision. When my tires wear out, buying new ones with less rated noise is a top priority. Does anybody know where to get windows coated to be bulletproof? That sounds interesting. Also, I'm interested in the door seal thing. Unbroken, can you take a picture of what you're talking about?


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## meisguy (Jan 16, 2009)

...BTW, I chuckled when I saw the words concrete and logical on the same line. And if your going to get custom thick glass windows etc. why not just buy a quiet car to start with?[/QUOTE]

haha! I agree that concrete is not logical, but it was just a thought. As far as buying a quiet car to start with...seems to make sense. I would imagine that the luxury brands spend quite a bit of money on R+D for reducing cabin noise. I think Buick has a specific program for it. As far as this coating goes...how a effective can a thin layer of "bulletproof coating be? I think that making the glass thicker(denser) would be the best solution. 

I was really surprised to hear that Patrick uses NO deadning Maybe you don't like sub bass as much as i do, but I've never been in a stock car that didn't rattle with heavy bass applied.


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## don_chuwish (Oct 29, 2009)

BTW, you asked about a Prius as a potentially quiet car. I assume you mean because it would have less engine noise? Take it from me, it's NOT a quiet car. Not horrible, but not quiet. They needed to keep it light for better MPGs, so that means less on noise control. Road noise is pretty loud. There's one section of highway I travel often where it goes from rough old asphalt to silky smooth new asphalt. Suddenly the stereo sounds AMAZING when that happens. I'll have to measure the dB change sometime.

Engine noise is OK but can get up there when the engine is working hard (up a steep hill on the highway for example). You only get pure electric mode at low speeds (<42mph), low power demand and when the battery has a good charge. Or when decelerating of course (engine turns off). For example, even with moderate acceleration off of a stoplight the engine kicks in at about 18mph, then can turn off again if you're cruising on a flat at under 42mph.

Just thought I'd clear that up!

- D


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I'd have to agree I don't bother with much deadening either. I hit the door speakers some and my IB baffle. But I would say you can go after problem areas with some success. I have put more floor deadening in a lot of my cars, since that is where most of the noise comes from. I used to find cadillacs in the boneyards and tear out the stuff under the carpet, it worked great. Most of it was rag wool or fiberglass looking stuff. Used to repair a lot of cars so I was in there now and then anyway. A lot of cars I spray the inner wheel wells with undercoat, helps save the car a little too though many are plastic lined today. If I had the car apart I'd spray the centers of the body panels too. Car I have now I did the front of the rear wells inside they were pretty noisy. But really today's cars are much better than they used to be.

Thing is I can use some lower wattage drivers and old school amps that are 40rms/ch and still get a system that plays loud enough for SQ at 80mph with the windows down, with say a 300rms on subs depending. A little more is nice but either way windows up I have no problems and can still hear sirens and stuff. Now you can buy all kinds of power for cheap, ok maybe not that cheap for SQ, but the amps you can if you want drivers maybe if you find the right ones. I have way more problems getting my stage right and enough midbass. Of course that is for mostly daily drivers, what you do for a show car or if you just want to do more stuff is whatever is right for you. I can't find the time for even simple stuff these days so have fun while you can. :inout::whip:


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

sqshoestring said:


> :inout::whip:


Nothing like a ***** to change the install time frame from a week to a season.:laugh::mean:


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## meisguy (Jan 16, 2009)

Hey Don, thanks so much for the insight on the prius. I've often thought it would make an excellent platform, but I also knew it was very light to get better mpg's therfore sacrificing quietness.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

meisguy said:


> ...BTW, I chuckled when I saw the words concrete and logical on the same line. And if your going to get custom thick glass windows etc. why not just buy a quiet car to start with?


haha! I agree that concrete is not logical, but it was just a thought. As far as buying a quiet car to start with...seems to make sense. I would imagine that the luxury brands spend quite a bit of money on R+D for reducing cabin noise. I think Buick has a specific program for it. As far as this coating goes...how a effective can a thin layer of "bulletproof coating be? I think that making the glass thicker(denser) would be the best solution. 

I was really surprised to hear that Patrick uses NO deadning Maybe you don't like sub bass as much as i do, but I've never been in a stock car that didn't rattle with heavy bass applied.[/QUOTE]


I went crazy with the sound deadening in my previous cars, and never found that it made much of a difference. And it really ruins the resale value of your car. Once you remove those panels a few times, they never look the same.

I dunno, YMMV, but I wouldn't do it again.

If you want a quiet car, just BUY a quiet car.

Also, it's no accident that I'm totally obsessive compulsive about efficiency, distortion, and dynamics. It's a lot easier to get your system to play 6dB louder than it is to make the car 6dB quieter. The difference between a Lexus LS430 and a Honda Civic is about 10dB.







As for rattling subs, well that's easy to fix


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## Ram4ever (Oct 21, 2009)

I'd say wind noise, and tire noise transmitted through the wheel wells, are my most objectionable unwanted guests. 

I have gone to lower noise tires, which made a noticeable difference. I didn't take measurements though, since by the time I replaced the tires they had broken belts...

The wheel wells aren't too hard to deal with when materials like Dynamat Extreme, Scosche AMT60, and Cascade Audio Engineering VB-3 are available, but the wind noise is tough. I've looked into transplanting mirrors from other vehicles which have better shape blending and a smaller overall profile. Not always an easy mod...

I've also heard about a reduction in transmitted SPL through glass when a clear "tint" type film is applied. Of course it will scratch over time... Here's the link to the company that makes the window film:

Ace Security laminates-Automobile Security film | Window Films

Why don't you check out this booklet about noise reduction in small aircraft; there's lots of parallels to larger vehicles like SUVs and vans:

soundprf

Here's another good read:

The Four-Fold Method of Noise and Vibration Control
http://www.earsc.com/pdfs/engineering/4foldWP.pdf

One thing to keep in mind is that sound levels drop off with distance, so if you're in a large vehicle you're frequently ahead to first deal with the most objectionable noise sources closest to where you sit. You may find that to be adequate.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

Ram4ever said:


> Here's another good read:
> 
> The Four-Fold Method of Noise and Vibration Control
> http://www.earsc.com/pdfs/engineering/4foldWP.pdf


Wow, something written in plain english that actually makes sense. That was a good read.


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## Menace Kustoms (Jan 31, 2010)

Man, I have been trying to find ambient SPL ratings for different vehicles, and I can't find squat. Ram4Ever, thanks for those articles, very informative.


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## HCCA (Apr 6, 2007)

I used SS Damplifier Pro on most of my interior. I also used Luxury Liner, on the floor. And, OverKill Pro inside my doors. I found, after my first test drive, that there was an obnoxious blower motor type sound coming from the rear of the vehicle. I had come to find out that while I treated much of the vehicle, I had missed a rear access well. The aux. climate control has several hoses that pass through in this area, and I had not treated anything in this small pocket. That was where the noise was entering. It was always there, but only noticeable AFTER I had treated the rest of the vehicle. I added a layer of DP, and stuffed as much LLP in the cavity, as I could fit. That killed the noise. 

Difference? I used to have to raise my voice to speak to the person next to me at higway speeds. And, if a semi tractor-trailer drove past, I would have to pause the conversation. It really was too loud to hear the person next to you!! After deadening, I had a dually diesel pickup drive by...I swear he had no muffler at all...and, though you could hear it, it did not drown out conversation. That truck was so loud, I could feel the vibrations through the floor! 

So, I think dampening made a huge difference in my case. But, like a previous poster, I'm going to do an A-B test with a meter, on a guys Explorer where I work. I'll post back with results after I'm done.


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## fredk (Dec 27, 2008)

> The difference between a Lexus LS430 and a Honda Civic is about 10dB.


Given that the db scale is logerithmic, the Civic is more than twice as noisy as the Lexys LS430: small log number, big noise difference.


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## bobduch (Jul 22, 2005)

meisguy said:


> ...BTW, I chuckled when I saw the words concrete and logical on the same line. And if your going to get custom thick glass windows etc. why not just buy a quiet car to start with?


haha! I agree that concrete is not logical, but it was just a thought. As far as buying a quiet car to start with...seems to make sense. I would imagine that the luxury brands spend quite a bit of money on R+D for reducing cabin noise. I think Buick has a specific program for it. As far as this coating goes...how a effective can a thin layer of "bulletproof coating be? I think that making the glass thicker(denser) would be the best solution. 

I was really surprised to hear that Patrick uses NO deadning Maybe you don't like sub bass as much as i do, but I've never been in a stock car that didn't rattle with heavy bass applied.[/QUOTE]

I laughed because someday I will build a concrete filled sub cabinet in a house. With an 18" JBL driver in it.
Most of my van driving is interstate driving at 70mph+ and even consumer reports noted that the Odyssey had high road noise (compared to the Sienna) so a little (okay, a lot) noise control seemed to be in order. 
Whispering Windows are little discs that turn surfaces into speakers. I dream of the noise canceling whispering windows on my windshield eliminated wind, tire and engine noise.


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## Menace Kustoms (Jan 31, 2010)

rommelrommel said:


> I have no evidence or anything to cite about this, but I was told by a person I consider very reputable that the bullet resistant glass coatings on the market reduce transmitted noise to a significant degree.


I contacted Ace Security Laminates about this question. They said they had not specifically tested their coating for sound blocking capabilities. They did comment though that they could foresee any appreciable benefits in this area. On a side note, to do the door windows, two small quarter windows and my rear window (23 sq ft mind you) on my G5, was going to cost $1000!!!!



Oh, and I saw in an advertisement from Infiniti that they use sound cancellation in the new M series. The speakers emit waves that cancel out certain noises, but leave the engine note intact. I wonder how doable that would be.


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## meisguy (Jan 16, 2009)

I texted KGB yesterday to find out what the quietest production car is and their answer was the 2008 buick enclave. Seemed a bit odd, but I've never been in one so maybe it's true.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

meisguy said:


> I texted KGB yesterday to find out what the quietest production car is and their answer was the 2008 buick enclave. Seemed a bit odd, but I've never been in one so maybe it's true.


KGB? The intelligence agency?


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

meisguy said:


> I texted KGB yesterday to find out what the quietest production car is and their answer was the 2008 buick enclave. Seemed a bit odd, but I've never been in one so maybe it's true.


Ford as a company has been smoking everyone lately (you should see the measurement/R&D tech they're using to do it) on NVH, but Buick might have edged them out in one vehicle.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

This thread is why I'm trying to close a deal on a 98 LS400.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> This thread is why I'm trying to close a deal on a 98 LS400.


haha What happened to the GS gansta-mobile?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I've not wanted a GS. Always an LS. But I was going with a 95-96 or so for the price. I ran into a 98 locally that is pristine, so I'm trying for it.


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## Menace Kustoms (Jan 31, 2010)

Man, you can pick up those early LSs CHEAP! They are really nice, my uncle swears by them. The LS430s are even nicer!


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

The 98 has the same HP but better mileage as the 430, and arguably better wood and leather.

The rest is just personal choice and style. 

Granted, I'd like a 430 as well.


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## mSaLL150 (Aug 14, 2008)

I must say that for a fullsize truck, my F150 was pretty quiet inside when it was stock.


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## shawnk (Jan 11, 2010)

"I've been thinking about taking a page out of the SPL playbook. Accuiring a vehicle that has minimal windows. Replacing the windsheild with much thicker glass, and using concrete where applicable. Has anyone ever done an SQ daily driver like this?"

Anyone remember Alma Gates?? Her monsterous record setting Bronco was transformed into quite the little SQ rig after she had retired from the SPL scene. OK, so it's not necessarily a daily driver. Nor is it very practical, but I thought it fits the thread well


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## thechainrule (Feb 2, 2010)

UNBROKEN said:


> I wouldn't call it deadening them per se...more like firming them up so the seal is tighter.
> I'm not sure exactly what the surgical tubing is made of...but it seems to be more flexible and hold it's shape longer than the cheap clear stuff from the hardware store.


have any pics of how you did this?


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## nitro70044 (Jan 10, 2010)

since when was gaining 6 db easy?


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## Ram4ever (Oct 21, 2009)

mSaLL150 said:


> I must say that for a fullsize truck, my F150 was pretty quiet inside when it was stock.


Did you take any pictures of just what all was in it in terms of OEM damping, etc?

I'm much more interested in learning about the results on larger vehicles like yours than the cars, since I'm working on a van.

Regards


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## mSaLL150 (Aug 14, 2008)

Ram4ever said:


> Did you take any pictures of just what all was in it in terms of OEM damping, etc?
> 
> I'm much more interested in learning about the results on larger vehicles like yours than the cars, since I'm working on a van.
> 
> Regards


Well Ford uses laminated steel on the interior of their trucks, they call it "quiet steel." It could be a total marketing scheme, but I must say that when it was stock the engine noise inside the cab was extremely quiet. Ridiculously quiet for a fullsize V8. The floor has some stock dampening but its minimal. 

YouTube - Ford F150 vs Other Trucks - Quiet Steel

skip to 1:10


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## Ram4ever (Oct 21, 2009)

Hey now, that's interesting! Thanks a lot for posting the link. I hadn't realized anyone was doing that sort of construction. 

I wonder if the alloys in the laminate sheets are significantly different from one another? Interesting contrast too that they included a panel damped with a spray-on dampener coating. We all know how thin OEM coatings are. Just enough to do the job...

Even taking into account that the sprayed panel wasn't mounted in the same way as the others and the type and amount of material is unknown, the difference was sufficient that it makes me think a good coating of Spectrum Sludge should easily equal the quiet steel in effectiveness.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Well I just closed the deal on a 99 LS400, so I now own one of the quietest cars in the world.

You know, a low CoD probably helps too.


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## Ram4ever (Oct 21, 2009)

Congrats! I hope you enjoy it. 

What sort of tires has it got, and what system is in it right now? Can you hear any interference from road and wind noise?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Ram4ever said:


> Congrats! I hope you enjoy it.
> 
> What sort of tires has it got, and what system is in it right now? Can you hear any interference from road and wind noise?


I'll let you know Saturday, when I drive 4 hours to pick it up!

should be a quiet drive home though.


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## Menace Kustoms (Jan 31, 2010)

I'm jealous. When you lower those things a tad and upgrade the wheels, they are a real stunner.


Kinda like this one:


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Nvrmind, the guy just called me and told me some dude walked in w/ a cashier's check, and he took the deal. I lost it.


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## Menace Kustoms (Jan 31, 2010)

Dammit.


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## otis857 (Feb 12, 2008)

Are there any objective stats on tire noise? That's the big one for me and my tires are getting close to replacement. In so many of these sound deadener threads, Foxpro5 touted the use of lead for its mass as a noise blocker. Are there any places that sell lead sheet metal for this purpose? I did my first full on teardown and sound deadener treatment a while ago on the wife's Pacifica using damplifier and closed cell foam. A LOT of work and I wasn't thrilled with the results. The biggest improvement was insulating from the brutal Az summer heat. The interior noise reduction was marginal. Before I go through all that again, I'll look at a noise blocking strategy vs deadening.


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## don_chuwish (Oct 29, 2009)

Cascade Audio has lead, bonded to decoupling foam layers. http://cascadeaudio.com/car_noise_control/index.htm

They only recommend using it on the more contoured areas though, where it's difficult to get MLV to form fit properly. Lots of good info on the website.

- D


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## Menace Kustoms (Jan 31, 2010)

otis857 said:


> Are there any objective stats on tire noise? That's the big one for me and my tires are getting close to replacement. In so many of these sound deadener threads, Foxpro5 touted the use of lead for its mass as a noise blocker. Are there any places that sell lead sheet metal for this purpose? I did my first full on teardown and sound deadener treatment a while ago on the wife's Pacifica using damplifier and closed cell foam. A LOT of work and I wasn't thrilled with the results. The biggest improvement was insulating from the brutal Az summer heat. The interior noise reduction was marginal. Before I go through all that again, I'll look at a noise blocking strategy vs deadening.


I would use MLV over lead. The purpose of MLV is to replace lead in an install. It has the same mass, 1lb/sq ft. It costs much less, and is WAY easier to work with. I don't really see how replacing MLV with another material (lead) that has the same properties will gain you anything. I talked to Don over at SDS, and dampening alone will not satisfy almost anybody. Instead of reducing noise, it changes it. Blocking is the only way to do that, and I would use MLV. 


If you do want lead, these guys have it:

Soundproofing & Noise Control Materiels Prices

However, it is $15.85 a lineal foot!!! MLV is $1.13 a lineal foot.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

The most annoying noise for me is my AC\heating fan. It's always on winter or summer and it's the loudest thing going for the first half of most of my commutes.


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## Menace Kustoms (Jan 31, 2010)

Have you put anything on the HVAC box?


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

AAAAAAA said:


> The most annoying noise for me is my AC\heating fan. It's always on winter or summer and it's the loudest thing going for the first half of most of my commutes.


haha mine is no where NEAR the loudest thing in my car, but it is certainly superbly loud. Only on defrost for the most part. I'm pretty sure it is the shape of the vents and the velocity at which the air comes out of the vent. A dirty cabin filter might cause bit extra noise though too.


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## Ram4ever (Oct 21, 2009)

Dang Fourthmeal, I'm really sorry to hear you got the Craig's list treatment. Are you going to keep looking for the same type?

Otis857, Cascade is high on my list of must-haves for my project due to all the odd surfaces and shapes. 

If you try to make your own barrier, you can buy rolls of very thin sheet lead like are used in the Cascade barrier from McMaster-Carr, but between it's outrageous cost and the additional shipping, the total bill is pretty obscene. 

This is sheet Lead, of various thicknesses:
McMaster-Carr

And here's Lead foil at the bottom of this page:
McMaster-Carr

Yep, $420 for a 3 foot by 30 foot roll of Lead foil... doesn't sound right to me either, but there it is. McMaster-Carr's not always the cheapest, but they stock everything. I'd be sorely tempted to check with a local metal or plumbing supply store to see if they could get it for any less.

You can get thicker (about 1/16") Lead sheet from plumbing supply stores. It's in rolls about 3 feet wide. It was what was used underneath bathtubs to catch any leaks, before heavy vinyl sheeting came along, which has now pretty much replaced the Lead. Fortunately I have part of a roll of this thick stuff... a lot of it's going in the van! I figure the obscenely noisy wheel arches and the firewall are prime targets. I already got the neoprene. I'm thinking that I'd apply Damplifier on the inside to knock down the resonances, then apply tons of Spectrum on the outside, then finish up with Spectrum Sludge on the inside over the Damplifier, followed by the neoprene and Lead barrier. It should improve my life significantly. I'd seriously consider adding Luxury Liner Pro if more treatment is necessary.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

You can look through MSC too for that type of stuff. We just recently switched to them and we've been pretty happy. Also MSC has locations all over the place, so you might be able to save some coin by going to the physical brick and mortar store and picking up your supplies. I know I have an MSC 5 minutes from my house.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Ram4ever said:


> Dang Fourthmeal, I'm really sorry to hear you got the Craig's list treatment. Are you going to keep looking for the same type?
> .


Sure am. The problem is they are getting very, very rare.


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## Menace Kustoms (Jan 31, 2010)

Sorry man, there are still some out there:

LEXUS 97' LS400

I don't know what your budget is but . . .

1998 LEXUS LS400 89K MILES PEARL WHITE 1 OWNER EXTRA CLEAN

One owner!!

1999 LEXUS LS400 64K MILES/WARRENTY

Under extended factory warranty, only 64K miles!

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/cto/1588078774.html

Little old lady's car.


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## otis857 (Feb 12, 2008)

Thanks for the tip, Ram4ever. My next install will be a pickup (not sure which model yet, F250 or Ram 2500) and I may try my own version of Cascade's noise barrier. THeir VB3 in 2 layers of neoprene with lead sandwiched inbetween. If I can find a cheap enough source for lead, I can buy neprene at upholstery supply stores by the running yard for a reasonable price. I tried landau top foam (ccf) with MLV on the Pacifica, and it didnt work that great, but the foam was cheap. Its amazing how reasonably priced these materials are at upholstery supply stores. Too bad they dont have MLV.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Menace Kustoms said:


> Sorry man, there are still some out there:
> 
> LEXUS 97' LS400
> 
> ...



Thanks for the links. It has a lot to do w/ financing too (short term, but still some don't play the game.)

Still I appreciate the support.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

A little information here The Art of Noise | The Truth About Cars


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