# PPI Looking for some suggestions - Art Series Amps Thread Continued



## Kubie

It would be cool to see a DIY contest of our artistic members creating some new artwork for the ART Series. It would be cool to see the old art again but I would definitely like to see what other ppl had in mind for designs of a great amplifier series.


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Kubie said:


> It would be cool to see a DIY contest of our artistic members creating some new artwork for the ART Series. It would be cool to see the old art again but I would definitely like to see what other ppl had in mind for designs of a great amplifier series.


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm... How would the contest work?


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## alachua

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Grizz, I am sure many of us would be delighted to share our ideas with you regarding the former art series reintroduction, however I think its important given the recent series of events that we confirm that Epsilon/PPI/You are comfortable with accepting these ideas and potentially putting portions of them into production. 

I would hate for you to run into any further intellectual property issues that would further delay the reintroduction of this amp line and would hate even more if our actions negatively affected your work environment.


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## Kubie

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm... How would the contest work?


Me, lol I never gave it that much thought, but I would definitely buy an amp that was designed by someone on this site. 

Here is one I thought of. People submit their designs to you. You have the members of the community vote on which is the best (Like say 3 Designs). And then Epsilon can decide which one they like the best. Or you guys can use your own design.

I don't know the legalities of something like this but big companies have contests like this all the time. I will have to look for examples.

Maybe the winners can have their own custom Art Series amps.

I know the legalities might be tough but to have a end user being part of a great series of amplifiers would speak volumes. I guess where I am going with this is to bridge the gap closer from manufacturer with the end user, and that sounds pretty cool.


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## alachua

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Personally, I think we need to keep sight of what the Art amps were, and what they are not. The reason they were and still are popular is because they represent, quite well, the era that they came from. The design, appearance and graphics are all very reminiscent of the 90's. While 'retro inspired' is in with car design, perhaps it would be better if today's 'Art' amps captured the feel and style of 2010, instead of simply hoping to pay homage to the old amps.


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## jimmyjames16

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



alachua said:


> Personally, I think we need to keep sight of what the Art amps were, and what they are not. The reason they were and still are popular is because they represent, quite well, the era that they came from. The design, appearance and graphics are all very reminiscent of the 90's. While 'retro inspired' is in with car design, perhaps it would be better if today's 'Art' amps captured the feel and style of 2010, instead of simply hoping to pay homage to the old amps.


^^^ Absolutely..


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## 89grand

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Honestly, the whole idea is rather weak in my opinion. Art series amps, are Art series amps, that's it. It's better they died gracefully than be returned as mass market Epsilon amps. I've been against "new" Art series amps since I first heard about this many many months ago.

I bought my first Art series PPI A200 way back in 1993, and no other amp will be one no matter how much it looks like one.


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## bassfromspace

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Copper's the new chrome.


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## alachua

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



89grand said:


> Honestly, the whole idea is rather weak in my opinion. Art series amps, are Art series amps, that's it. It's better they died gracefully than be returned as mass market Epsilon amps. I've been against "new" Art series amps since I first heard about this many many months ago.
> 
> I bought my first Art series PPI A200 way back in 1993, and no other amp will be one no matter how much it looks like one.


The same can be said for Chrysler's resurrection of the classic muscle car models of the 60's and 70's. In the end, its just a name plate. It doesn't have to mean the same thing in every incarnation, it is just a companies way of affiliating a certain product with a certain market segment. Just because a new Art amp wouldn't _feel_ the same to you, doesn't mean it wouldn't have an impact on the amount they sell, or on people's perception of the product. Besides, it would be nice to give a whole new generation of people the chance to experience their first art amp...


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## 89grand

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Art amps are a certain design of "real" PPI amps, not just a name.

But whatever, I don't care much about the whole thing really. I have opinions, but that's it.


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## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



bassfromspace said:


> Copper's the new chrome.


I like the way this guy thinks, although making a chassis out of copper is pricey, paint and clear coat is not. 

SQ has been used time and time again, what about..

Copperhead - too snakelike

CopperTONE - too much already known for suntan lotion... but the word Tone with copper would be cool...

other words I came up with copper when searching the color -
burnt sienna
sepia
Venetian
mahogany

I really don't think any of these would work that well but we can see the copper theme doing well with the copper SQ subs.


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## roxj01

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

I love the copper and black theme. It would be sweet to do them with a semi gloss black heat sink and the circuit diagram printed in copper like the old black arts. It's too bad you guys couldn't reach an agreement on the original art work. But, I'm sure a variation on it with a different compact heat sink design would look awesome if done right.


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## WRX/Z28

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

If looking for ideas for the new amp series, you could call them simply ".3 series" or "Classic series" or "Throwback series", or something subtle enough to pay homage to the originals without blatantly trying to recreate them.


Copper/black are definately all the rage these days.


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## JAX

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Are the heatsinks done or just the amp boards? How about somthing with a plexi cover to display the internals. Instead of painted circuit board pic like old arts you would have the actual circuit board showing. I always liked that about US Amps and others that did that.


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



89grand said:


> Honestly, the whole idea is rather weak in my opinion. Art series amps, are Art series amps, that's it. It's better they died gracefully than be returned as mass market Epsilon amps. I've been against "new" Art series amps since I first heard about this many many months ago.
> 
> I bought my first Art series PPI A200 way back in 1993, and no other amp will be one no matter how much it looks like one.


While I really wanted to do this project, I do agree with you. When Jimmy Page and Robert Plant met earlier this year to discuss a reunion tour of Led Zeppelin, they both agreed that they set the bar too high and a tour could end up being disappointing. Art is done and gone forever...


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

OK all, so here is the deal... Contests take to long and if we want these in house at CES and noit Junetember, we needs ideas NOW!!! So, while I do no have all of the details, we will give out 2 prizes for Best Heatsink Design and Best Series Name.

I'll work on the details. But we have very little time. I'm gonna say you can submit your ideas by next Friday, August 13th. Then we'll decide and hopefulyl move forward. Our own designer will also be woking on this, but he cannot win a prize, even if we chose his design. The prizes will go to you guys. Get on it! OH, and the ideas must be sent to me directly through email so I can store them in a separate folder... Capiche?

[email protected]


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## JKashat

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> OK all, so here is the deal... Contests take to long and if we want these in house at CES and noit Junetember, we needs ideas NOW!!! So, while I do no have all of the details, we will give out 2 prizes for Best Heatsink Design and Best Series Name.
> 
> I'll work on the details. But we have very little time. I'm gonna say you can submit your ideas by next Friday, August 13th. Then we'll decide and hopefulyl move forward. Our own designer will also be woking on this, but he cannot win a prize, even if we chose his design. The prizes will go to you guys. Get on it! OH, and the ideas must be sent to me directly through email so I can store them in a separate folder... Capiche?
> 
> [email protected]


You got an email!
-Jeff


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## rugdnit

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

How cool is that? To have a Manager who wants to hear from you guys is just awesome.


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## alachua

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Grizz, would a Google Sketchup file be an acceptable submission for those of us who want to submit a 3D drawing of our heatskin design?


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## truckerfte

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



bassfromspace said:


> Copper's the new chrome.




This!

Just so happens that this is the color scheme im using on my supra build.(relax, it's just a mkII) I would be first in line for a set in copper/satin black!

I wanted to call the car Kopperhed, but apparently Billy Gibbons beat me to it

and for a name for the amps?

COPPER. thats just it, one simple word


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## PPI_GUY

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Grizz, I just emailed you the winning name for the new series of amps.
Everyone else...give up now.


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



alachua said:


> Grizz, would a Google Sketchup file be an acceptable submission for those of us who want to submit a 3D drawing of our heatskin design?


Of course. Even had drawn, scanned and emailed is fine. This si not a artistic talent contest, but rather a fun, friendly game to stir up immagination and see if one of the submissions are chosen...


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



benny said:


> just curious, why not pay CHY her royalties and make the Art Series?


Actually, let be a bit more clear. We simply cannot to afford to pay Carolyn what she is worth.


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## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

I did mine in microsoft paint. its sad  but i dont have the time to model something up or I would go for it.


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



alachua said:


> Personally, I think we need to keep sight of what the Art amps were, and what they are not. The reason they were and still are popular is because they represent, quite well, the era that they came from. The design, appearance and graphics are all very reminiscent of the 90's. While 'retro inspired' is in with car design, perhaps it would be better if today's 'Art' amps captured the feel and style of 2010, instead of simply hoping to pay homage to the old amps.


I get tons of PMs about this. Some want original duplicates which ic not going to happen. Some want a totally revamped version that is totally different. Some want compact Class D fullrange. This is your opportunity to speake your mind. At the end, I will give away a couple prizes and I get great feedback from you guys. Works for me.


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## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

I cant 3d worth a garbage but i can see it in my minds eye. The PPI logo already looks like a heat sink, incorporate that into the sides of the extruded aluminum enclosure. Use the PPI logo as the sink. Use the standard black and red colors to lift the eye to the foreground of the ppi logo/heatsink and the black as the contrast to the rest of the amp. It would look awesome. Or change the colors up for the SQ series and Gold/copper and black the amp with the PPI heatsink idea.

There I am copyrighting that and patenting that and trademarking that. 

edit Grizz, not like the pic i tried to draw you but the actual triangles wrap down the sides of the am in a much larger in your face way top and bottom.


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## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

double post double post


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



fertigaudio said:


> I cant 3d worth a garbage but i can see it in my minds eye. The PPI logo already looks like a heat sink, incorporate that into the sides of the extruded aluminum enclosure. Use the PPI logo as the sink. Use the standard black and red colors to lift the eye to the foreground of the ppi logo/heatsink and the black as the contrast to the rest of the amp. It would look awesome. Or change the colors up for the SQ series and Gold/copper and black the amp with the PPI heatsink idea.
> 
> There I am copyrighting that and patenting that and trademarking that.
> 
> edit Grizz, not like the pic i tried to draw you but the actual triangles wrap down the sides of the am in a much larger in your face way top and bottom.


Can't picture it, but if you want to submit it, it must bne sent to me email so I can put it with the rest of the submissions. I am not going to come back through a bunch of posts trying to find it...


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## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> Can't picture it, but if you want to submit it, it must bne sent to me email so I can put it with the rest of the submissions. I am not going to come back through a bunch of posts trying to find it...


Rodge, gonna have to hand draw this tank.


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## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Ughhh I cant find my crayons.


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## ISTundra

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Grizz, can you re-clarify what you have already developed for what was to be the resurrected Art series?

I'd be happy to take a shot at modeling and photo rendering a 3D chassis design in SolidWorks, based on my own ideas or those from this forum that want to participate. I need something to start with, so if you have a board design, heatsinks, target footprint, etc that would help if you can share them, privately if need be.


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## rimshot

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

I'm sorry if I didn't read the ENTIRE thread but is this primarily for the new "art" series design or do we have the freedom to do heat-sink ideas as well? Thanks in advance!


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## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



ISTundra said:


> Grizz, can you re-clarify what you have already developed for what was to be the resurrected Art series?
> 
> I'd be happy to take a shot at modeling and photo rendering a 3D chassis design in SolidWorks, based on my own ideas or those from this forum that want to participate. I need something to start with, so if you have a board design, heatsinks, target footprint, etc that would help if you can share them, privately if need be.


This is a great question, I was going to ask the dimensions of the board and what is the height of the tallest component on the board to get some scaling going on.


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## rimshot

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



fertigaudio said:


> This is a great question, I was going to ask the dimensions of the board and what is the height of the tallest component on the board to get some scaling going on.


Ditto.


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## PPI_GUY

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Grizz has said the Art series is dead so, we should try for a design that looks NOTHING like the old Art sinks, including the CHY graphics. My vote (and the idea I sent to Grizz) is for an updated version of these bad boys...



...I am thinking fatter fins with a radiused roll toward the long edges and some incorporation of the black & copper graphics and/or an illuminated P-P-I 'lightning bolt' somewhere on the heatsink.
My idea for the name? 

*PRO SQ Series*...example; *PRO SQ 300 *might be a 2x150 watt amp or a *PRO SQ 500 *might be a 2x250 watts or 500x1.
You could even carry this nomenclature over to the Art subs and call them *PRO SQ 8 *and *PRO SQ 12 *


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



rimshot said:


> Ditto.


Trying to get it now. Give me a day or two. I can tell you that it is fairly narrow compared to average. So the ampe can be a longer-narrower ratio if preferred...


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## rimshot

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

this is waaaay better than doing actual work!


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## rexroadj

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



rimshot said:


> this is waaaay better than doing actual work!


NICE!!!! REAL NICE!!!!!


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## rimshot

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

here is a larger version with the correct logo. There are alot of color combinations that you could do here...


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## PPI-ART

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

I call it "ARTISTRY" as defined in the dictionary as ("artistic workmanship, effect, or quality"). 

not ART series but just '"ARTISTRY" no graphics and all that jazz. would be sweet to stay with the rest of the art theme products and not a copy or redo of the originals. wife did it in illustrator.


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## Vander

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



PPI-ART said:


> I call it "ARTISTRY" as defined in the dictionary as ("artistic workmanship, effect, or quality").
> 
> not ART series but just '"ARTISTRY" no graphics and all that jazz. would be sweet to stay with the rest of the art theme products and not a copy or redo of the originals. wife did it in illustrator.


I like the looks of the black and copper but to me Artistry is just to close to Art.I dont think he wants a name that even resembles Art.I emailed him my idea for a name,which was Synergy.PPI Synergy Series has a ring to it I think.


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## PPI-ART

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Vander said:


> I like the looks of the black and copper but to me Artistry is just to close to Art.I dont think he wants a name that even resembles Art.I emailed him my idea for a name,which was Synergy.PPI Synergy Series has a ring to it I think.


Yea I like synergy it rings. What I was going for is to try to keep it inline with their lineup currently. As they have an art collection of speakers. So it would make sense to carry it to the amps as well. Just my opinion. I was just thinking of ways to utilize that "theme" if you will. But not call it art series.


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## Vander

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



PPI-ART said:


> Yea I like synergy it rings. What I was going for is to try to keep it inline with their lineup currently. As they have an art collection of speakers. So it would make sense to carry it to the amps as well. Just my opinion. I was just thinking of ways to utilize that "theme" if you will. But not call it art series.


I can respect that,but rebadging the current Art series of speakers seems like a logical thing for them to do given the situation with the amps.Having a full line of products named Synergy would even make the name make more sense given the definition.


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## DS-21

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



BigAl205 said:


> Maybe you could put out some empty non-working shells and name it after him? :laugh:


Gotta cut 'em with a jigsaw and call it world-class workmanship, though!



Grizz Archer said:


> While I really wanted to do this project, I do agree with you. When Jimmy Page and Robert Plant met earlier this year to discuss a reunion tour of Led Zeppelin, they both agreed that they set the bar too high and a tour could end up being disappointing. Art is done and gone forever...


Hmm. I remember back in...was it 1995?, when Page and Plant got together again for the first time to tour publically. They did a special on MTV ("unLEDded" I think it was called) and went on a tour to support their album of Zeppelin remixes and a few original songs called from said MTV special called "No Quarter." In all honesty, much of it was good stuff. They really put some punch into "Thank You," rocked the hell out of "Since I've Been Loving You," (at least as much as they could without Bonzo's thunder) and I at least really like their Pakistani-influenced remix of Kashmir. Other remixes on that album, such as the title track, bombed. (And others that were only released as B-sides, such as the odd acoustic mess that they turned "When the Levee Breaks" into on the "Wonderful One" single. 

I remember seeing them on that tour in ATL, and wondering why Robert Plant thought he could still scream "The Immigrant Song," because it was clear his vocal cords DID NOT want to do that. Fortunately, when I saw Page and Plant in Prague when they were touring in support of their second, all-new-material album, "Walking Into Clarksdale," they dropped that track. (From my notes on the setlist, they didn't much care for their new material either. Out of 20 songs, only 3 were post-Zeppelin material. I may have been one of the few who really liked "Clarksdale" when it came out...)

Then again, Roger Daltrey and Pete Townshend seem to be going on forever calling themselves The Who, even though John Entwhistle and of course Keith Moon are long, long gone. It's obviously not even close to the same, but at least Daltrey can still hit all the notes and it's always fun to see Townshend's windmills.



Grizz Archer said:


> I get tons of PMs about this. Some want original duplicates which ic not going to happen. Some want a totally revamped version that is totally different. Some want compact Class D fullrange. This is your opportunity to speake your mind.


I will say that the first company (within reason) who offers a reasonably priced Class D amp that's 6.25" or narrower (length far less important) and at least 100Wx4 into 4Ω will be getting my business. (Assuming the connectors are on the longer end or ends, or the amp is 5.5" wide instead.) If that's a post-DEI PPI, cool.


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## PPI_GUY

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



PPI-ART said:


> I call it "ARTISTRY" as defined in the dictionary as ("artistic workmanship, effect, or quality").
> 
> not ART series but just '"ARTISTRY" no graphics and all that jazz. would be sweet to stay with the rest of the art theme products and not a copy or redo of the originals. wife did it in illustrator.


The design is good but, alittle too close to the Art series imho. Also, I think "Artistry" takes it one step closer to what Grizz has said we have to move away from. I like the black & copper graphics though.

What DS-21 is asking for (full-range Class D in a super small chassis) might very well be doable but, at what price point? Remember, Epsilon has to sell these amps. And while something that small and efficient might sell to us SQ guys, they won't sell in large numbers. Probably because of the higher cost associated with the design. Besides, if it could be done I would think a company like JayElle would have already done it. 
The basis of what the new Art's _were_ intended to incorporate would probably have to be maintained as I am sure Grizz and Epsilon aren't interested in doing away with all those boards!
I like the BLT and more flexable crossover features so, that's a good start. Next would be a design that people can immediately identify with, that strikes a resonant note. I think it's pretty cool that Grizz has opened the creative process up to those who might actually purchase the product.


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## DS-21

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



PPI_GUY said:


> What DS-21 is asking for (full-range Class D in a super small chassis) might very well be doable but, at what price point?


To clarify, I'm not asking for a "super small chassis." I'm asking for something roughly the same size as the current good Class D amps of that power, but in a slightly different _form factor:_ narrower and longer.



PPI_GUY said:


> Besides, if it could be done I would think a company like JayElle would have already done it.


Jello went after a different form factor: longer and lower.



PPI_GUY said:


> Next would be a design that people can immediately identify with, that strikes a resonant note.


I do get a little scared when I read such words, because car-fi has never been known for being an arena with an abundance of good taste.


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## mmiller

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

I like the look of the copper and black personally.... what about calling it the Anarchy series?


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## PPI_GUY

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



DS-21 said:


> I do get a little scared when I read such words, because car-fi has never been known for being an arena with an abundance of good taste.


Some designs, while probably not adding alot functionally, have 'branded' the line so to speak. Coming to mind immediately are the old Orion HCCA amps with their distinctive red anodized finish. That design has become so associated with Orion that even DEI wasn't brain dead enough to screw it up. That example is probably the exception rather than the rule and I would agree that generally most designs run the gamut from awkward and clunky to simply garish. All the more reason to atleast try for a stylish and memorable design.


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## PPI-ART

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



PPI_GUY said:


> Some designs, while probably not adding alot functionally, have 'branded' the line so to speak. Coming to mind immediately are the old Orion HCCA amps with their distinctive red anodized finish. That design has become so associated with Orion that even DEI wasn't brain dead enough to screw it up. That example is probably the exception rather than the rule and I would agree that generally most designs run the gamut from awkward and clunky to simply garish. All the more reason to atleast try for a stylish and memorable design.


Amen to that.


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## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Grizz I am working feverishly with sketchup and i am getting the hang of it. I am a quick learner. Dont stop taking requests yet mine is about to be awe inspiring awesome.


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## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

I only spent a few hours on this but I quickly got the hang of sketchup. This is my work and not someone elses. Grizz you can have anything you want from this. 

My ideas, excited to see what you all think. First the amps heat sink is similar in design to the PPI logo. Wanted to make the ends more jagged but coulnt figure it out in sketchup.

The amps color is Charcoal and the copper color is actually called chocolate! The name I finally came up with for the amp was the *"cuprum*" which is *Latin for Copper* or the table of elements calls it *"Cu"!* This model would be Cu 2350 or...

So the series should use the old PC names like when the amp stated 2channels 350watts but actually did 1400 watts bridged. I like underated amps and model numbers. 

The ppi logo is made up of red LED's and is actually a solid on, spectrum analyzer, or off if you like. The top and bottom part of the logo display POWER lights and CLIP/PROTECTION lights respectively.

All the white lettering is standoff and was easy to create in sketchup.
THIS WAS SO FREAKING FUN!

Sketchup lets you save the amp files how you would like them displayed.


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



rimshot said:


> this is waaaay better than doing actual work!


Please email this to me if you want it in the contest... Thanx!
[email protected]


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



ISTundra said:


> Grizz, can you re-clarify what you have already developed for what was to be the resurrected Art series?
> 
> I'd be happy to take a shot at modeling and photo rendering a 3D chassis design in SolidWorks, based on my own ideas or those from this forum that want to participate. I need something to start with, so if you have a board design, heatsinks, target footprint, etc that would help if you can share them, privately if need be.


The boards are done, and I just found out that they have not been assembled! This is actually a good thing. Everything is ready to go, but this allows a design that is traditional, or even a narrower design with the transistors at 90 degrees up the side. We can basically do whatever we want. In fact, the owenr said if something perfect came out of this, he would even trash the empty board and skew them as needed tomove forward...


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



rimshot said:


> I'm sorry if I didn't read the ENTIRE thread but is this primarily for the new "art" series design or do we have the freedom to do heat-sink ideas as well? Thanks in advance!


It will be for what WOULD HAVE BEEN the Art Series, but I am searching for a design and series name. Just thought it would be fun after considering a member's suggestion...


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



fertigaudio said:


> This is a great question, I was going to ask the dimensions of the board and what is the height of the tallest component on the board to get some scaling going on.


Do it anyway you like, we have NO boundaries except that we would like to keep it extruded if possible to keep cost/tooling down. However, if you have the perfect cast design, I am interested...


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



PPI-ART said:


> Yea I like synergy it rings. What I was going for is to try to keep it inline with their lineup currently. As they have an art collection of speakers. So it would make sense to carry it to the amps as well. Just my opinion. I was just thinking of ways to utilize that "theme" if you will. But not call it art series.


You can bet I will be fighting to change all of the Art Collection speakers to the new name. I do not care if it looks like we made a mistake. We did! Only so much can be done from scratch in a year. We'll see...


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## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



DS-21 said:


> Gotta cut 'em with a jigsaw and call it world-class workmanship, though!
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. I remember back in...was it 1995?, when Page and Plant got together again for the first time to tour publically. They did a special on MTV ("unLEDded" I think it was called) and went on a tour to support their album of Zeppelin remixes and a few original songs called from said MTV special called "No Quarter." In all honesty, much of it was good stuff. They really put some punch into "Thank You," rocked the hell out of "Since I've Been Loving You," (at least as much as they could without Bonzo's thunder) and I at least really like their Pakistani-influenced remix of Kashmir. Other remixes on that album, such as the title track, bombed. (And others that were only released as B-sides, such as the odd acoustic mess that they turned "When the Levee Breaks" into on the "Wonderful One" single.
> 
> I remember seeing them on that tour in ATL, and wondering why Robert Plant thought he could still scream "The Immigrant Song," because it was clear his vocal cords DID NOT want to do that. Fortunately, when I saw Page and Plant in Prague when they were touring in support of their second, all-new-material album, "Walking Into Clarksdale," they dropped that track. (From my notes on the setlist, they didn't much care for their new material either. Out of 20 songs, only 3 were post-Zeppelin material. I may have been one of the few who really liked "Clarksdale" when it came out...)
> 
> Then again, Roger Daltrey and Pete Townshend seem to be going on forever calling themselves The Who, even though John Entwhistle and of course Keith Moon are long, long gone. It's obviously not even close to the same, but at least Daltrey can still hit all the notes and it's always fun to see Townshend's windmills.
> 
> 
> 
> I will say that the first company (within reason) who offers a reasonably priced Class D amp that's 6.25" or narrower (length far less important) and at least 100Wx4 into 4Ω will be getting my business. (Assuming the connectors are on the longer end or ends, or the amp is 5.5" wide instead.) If that's a post-DEI PPI, cool.


Man, why you gotta bring up all that stuff that makes me feel old? lol Actually Page and Plant wer discussing a reunion tour earlier this year and annouced that they feel they set the bart too high and that they would only disappoint people. Probably true but I would have gone. Just saw Judas Priest and Rob Halford can still scream like a little girl. They were amazing! 

I tend to like the narrower amps as well... For some odd reason they just look cooler to me. But I get them for free so I need to hear from the guys that want them and might buy them...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



fertigaudio said:


> Grizz I am working feverishly with sketchup and i am getting the hang of it. I am a quick learner. Dont stop taking requests yet mine is about to be awe inspiring awesome.


I got a bit more time. I just do not them out in Junetember, ya know. But February would not be too bad...


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Good job, guys! I am enjoying seeing your ideas for the rebirth of PPI.


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Carolyn Hall Young said:


> Good job, guys! I am enjoying seeing your ideas for the rebirth of PPI.


WOW! Welcome to the forum, and thank you for chiming in, as well as all your influence over our hobby/addiction! Its a pleasure to have you on board!


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

PPI_ ART,
I wish I had you and Kerri on my team in the 80s and 90s. I'm grateful to have you as pals, now. 
xxoo chy


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



rexroadj said:


> WOW! Welcome to the forum, and thank you for chiming in, as well as all your influence over our hobby/addiction! Its a pleasure to have you on board!


You make it a pleasure. Thanks. xxoo chy


----------



## coffee_junkee

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

*falls off chair*

CHY!

I can't believe it!

I probably have more of your _artwork_ than any one person, anywhere! White arts and shiny Xtants line my den by the dozens. The design on the outside told the story of the goodness on the inside. Simply amazing!

So glad to have you as a member of the forum.


----------



## Galante

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Guys, anyone knows when the new PPI Art collection amps coming?


----------



## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Galante said:


> Guys, anyone knows when the new PPI Art collection amps coming?


Before the flames start burning red hot... to sum up this thread and the Grizz Archer Apologize thread; they ARE NOT going to be put into production. There are new amps in the works targeted to replace the art and start a whole new genre' for PPI.


----------



## nitropilot

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

I've been following the thread a bit having owned and loved PPI products in the past. I wanted to compliment PPI for opening up to the forum for ideas on their new line of amps. I think its awesome that Grizzly has been so active on here. It's great to see a manufacturer listen to the people. Keep up the good job!

And props to the user designs posted to the thread. They look great!. I think my preference is Fertigaudios idea. It goes with the brand recognition of the ppi logo and is unique. Looks great! Would be cool to see other ideas that were emailed to ppi not on this thread. Maybe a vote on user favorite at some point?


----------



## PPI-ART

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Carolyn Hall Young said:


> PPI_ ART,
> I wish I had you and Kerri on my team in the 80s and 90s. I'm grateful to have you as pals, now.
> xxoo chy


Thank you very much. Kerri and I appreciate that. Hope all is well with you and Warren. Talk at you soon.


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



coffee_junkee said:


> *falls off chair*
> 
> CHY!
> 
> I can't believe it!
> 
> I probably have more of your _artwork_ than any one person, anywhere! White arts and shiny Xtants line my den by the dozens. The design on the outside told the story of the goodness on the inside. Simply amazing!
> 
> So glad to have you as a member of the forum.


Dear Coffee Junkee,
Now I'm the one falling off a chair! I send you kisses! 

It really is so funny, I spent hour after hour and years and years, alone in my studio working on these, and never realized that they would actually mean something to anyone else. I would be so surprised at people's reactions when I went to sound offs, CES and car audio events.

Because of this forum, I have digging back through my old stuff, and I can't believe what we managed to do back then, without the creative possibilities of the technology that we have now. The art amps works were painted on watercolor paper, then scanned with primitive scanners, and data storage was minimal and really expensive. I don't even own an amplifier -- except for a gutless prototype Xtant. 

Frankly the hardest challenges were the owner's manuals and dealer installation books, binders and contracts, brochures and ads-- endless of pages of type -- and yes I typed it letter by letter -- technical illustrations and tons of detail work, specs and all -- but every once in a while I would get to have a whole lot of fun with ideas and art. I still love the people I worked with -- so alive with ideas, and so inspiring.

Im kind of, sort of, embarrassed to tell you how good it has made me feel to hear about some people's affection for the amps etc. It is very gratifying, but I do know that if the amps weren't good, the art wouldn't matter.

Thank you for caring enough to tell me about your collection. Do you have pictures? 

Adios,
xxoo chy


----------



## Oliver

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

_These are a couple of pics of his_


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

They look like they are in beautiful shape. Thanks for posting them!
xxoo chy


----------



## audiogodz1

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

CHY, 

I've seen Arts with *extensive* side plate art on them done in purple and blue for the *very first* art's. (there is also an Art 300 floating around with an insane amount of art on the face that matches these side plates, I've seen three of them). It seems like it didn't last more than a year or so before it changed. These were packed with art on them. That would make a total of three revisions for the white arts (two for the A series and 1 for the .2 series). Is there any reason that you know of the first Arts with the highly detailed sides were changed to a less detailed design very shortly thereafter? They didn't last any time at all! Someone not like them? (and is there a story behind that Art 300 that matches these sides?).

(for the record #2 were the epitome of perfection IMO)

Art #1













Art #2












Art #3


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Dear Audiogodz,

Good to hear from you again. I didn't realize anyone was paying that much attention...

You can PM me with your name and phone number and I'll call you, if you wish. I just deleted another way too long tome, by accident, and I that's a sure sign that I should sign off.

The short story is that I had wanted to do three color endplates, but someone (whose name I do remember) was worried about registration problems -- printing on powder coated, bended endplates was an issue -- it could have been done. In the end, I was pleased with the way the two color versions worked out as well as they did. I seem to recall that there were different connector position for some of the different amps, but it has been a long while.

The one color versions happened because of screening consistency problems. One pass was faster and more cost effective. They were done solely in Adobe Illustrator, with no hand drawn additional layers, and they were easier to read.

The .2s were illegal alteration of the artwork, changed without my permission, and done after I left to Start Xtant with Jeff Scoon and the gang-- but we had more pressing matters going on here and the .2 Series wasn't on our radar at the time. 

The .2 art modifications of my work on the top of the amps were an even more serious violation of my exit agreement and copyrights. Much later, when we first saw them, PPI was already going down the tubes, and it just felt like it was a stupid power play of some sort. 

If anyone knows how the .2 alterations came about, I would love to know. I am not going to sue anyone over it, I would just like to get the straight story on who/what/where/why/when/ and how. It was 1996ish, I think.

Anyway, I hope this helps. 
xxoo chy


----------



## audiogodz1

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Thanks for the info, I always wondered why the first versions were so short lived. Hard to believe price was an issue with what an Art went for back then, but still believable! 



> I just deleted another


I'd probably hit the post button, then go back and hit edit for spellcheck so it is already posted and you won't lose it. 

PS- here is the Art 300 I was inquiring about. None of the other amps look anything like this one.


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Dear Audiogodz,

The A300 was intense. Actually the A400 was in the same spirit, with the shape of the amplifier painted into the image. The other ones have more air space. 

I wish Jeff Scoon were here to help me out --he's out of the country now. Jeff often reminds about the order and sequence of my ideas, when I have moved on to other things. He would be way more accurate than I am, about the whens and whys -- even on the end caps.

I envisioned the art amps as though they were sculptural canvases for limited edition prints -- each specific product different from the next in varying degrees. Each one was seasoned by a specific time span, and the frame of mind I was in. 

I am hesitant to say publicly what I the context of my life was, then, and what have been going through for the last 21.5 years, but the sense of urgency with which I have lived, and the vividness of my gratefulness for life itself has colored everything I do. 

There was a basic "bone structure" to all the art amps, but each was created as an original painting, with real paint on real paper. Each piece was made as if it were to be my last chance to be heard. Like variations in a musical composition, where a unifying theme moves through different passages, the paintings were worked as a series, made to belong together, as fine art -- evolving. 

This was not formula-based graphic design. It was intensely personal, though abstract: they are about harmony, music, balance and beauty.

The black art amps were more concept/design based. I loved the guts of the amplifiers, and thought the circuit board/cad drawings were too elegant to ignore.

A quote that I used in an early PPI brochure: 
"All art is the balance between the external and the internal." 
Sammual T. Coleridge. 

I have said it here before, but the intent was for the exterior of these amps to reflect the brilliance that was inside. Yes, we were idealistic. I continue to believe that those ideals are timeless -- craftsmanship, informed intelligence, honesty, discipline and mastery. I am not saying that I personally have achieved any of the above, but I sincerely try to aim myself in that direction every day.

This may explain why I could take Dave Brimer's trespassing on my art, and my reputation, just a bit personally. I can't even copy my own work, because each brush stroke surprises me, and takes me to a new place, everyday. 

This is probably way too much information for you. I don't know how to tell a short story -- I kind of envy the people that can answer a question in three words of less.

Yup.
xxoo chy 

Should this belong on some other thread.(?)


----------



## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Carolyn,
This is all very inspiring and I dont think it belongs in any other thread. The history of PPI (you) is why so many still love and cherish the brand. The bar was set so high long ago that we are still looking for the next big thing. As another forum member had stated here amps are commodities. They are the same with just about the same sound quality when taking into account only the output section and not the extra features added in. A purist is tired of seeing the same <1%THD and 14.4V ratings that cars never see under load. PPI arts defined themselves as much better. Not just in the numbers (guts) but in the art. I am seeing more and more now why these amps set themselves apart during the fray of the 90's.

Thank you for helping make our memories.

Brandon.


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



nitropilot said:


> I've been following the thread a bit having owned and loved PPI products in the past. I wanted to compliment PPI for opening up to the forum for ideas on their new line of amps. I think its awesome that Grizzly has been so active on here. It's great to see a manufacturer listen to the people. Keep up the good job!
> 
> And props to the user designs posted to the thread. They look great!. I think my preference is Fertigaudios idea. It goes with the brand recognition of the ppi logo and is unique. Looks great! Would be cool to see other ideas that were emailed to ppi not on this thread. Maybe a vote on user favorite at some point?


Grizzly? lol Pretty funny since I am nothing like a bear. 5'10', beer belly and bald as a cue ball.


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

All,

Here is an issue I am faced with regarding Art... The Art Series was, in its day, the high end line. Later, Power Class became the high end line. So which one should be the high end line now? Art lovers will say Art Series and vice versa. To make an amplifier higher than the new Power Class would not be an easy task, but more importantly, it would not sell. The Power Class doe snot move in the numbers we need it to now, so a more expensive amplifier would be a monumental waste of time. I KNOW, we would all love it, but "love" does not pay the bills or justify expenses. The new series that we will be doing does fit between Sedonna and PC, but closer to Sedonna, but with balanced line inputs. Heck, if I could take the same exact board from the PC and put it in an "Art" series of amps, I would be more than happy with the level of quality and features. It would seem silly to do so, but the question would be... Would they sell better just because they are "Art"? Maybe. Maybe they would be just another great amp that does not sell well. We have done this quite a few times on teh Soundstream side. We make something that os off the charts with quality and a unique identity, but they do not sell. After they get closed out a few years later, THEN EVERYBODY DECIDES THEY HAVE TO HAVE ONE! Go figure, huh? The fact is that we need an amplifier series that is black and copper. If I had my my way, I would make this new series and couple it with the Art SQ subs and PC components, creating a new series that encompasses all of the black and copper products that I have put so much time and energy into. Moreover, I love these products the most!

So, that is my dilemma...


----------



## rc10mike

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

My opinion:

You need something that truly stands out from the rest of your line, something special, unique, the "Crown Jewel". 

The so called "Crown Jewel" is the beacon that gets everyone's attention. Without it, I fear PPI will just fall in the "they make good stuff, but nothing to rave about category" and eventually fail.

Look at JL, for example. They have lots of average lines, but also the high-end lines that nobody (well..most of us) dont want to pay for, yet many still do..and MANY other companies do the same thing. IMO, PPI needs a ultra high end line, something that draws attention, IMO the ART name itself isnt enough to bring people back, and if the Art isnt as amazing as it once was, then people will just pass on it.


----------



## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> All,
> 
> Here is an issue I am faced with regarding Art... The Art Series was, in its day, the high end line. Later, Power Class became the high end line. So which one should be the high end line now? Art lovers will say Art Series and vice versa. To make an amplifier higher than the new Power Class would not be an easy task, but more importantly, it would not sell. The Power Class doe snot move in the numbers we need it to now, so a more expensive amplifier would be a monumental waste of time. I KNOW, we would all love it, but "love" does not pay the bills or justify expenses. The new series that we will be doing does fit between Sedonna and PC, but closer to Sedonna, but with balanced line inputs. Heck, if I could take the same exact board from the PC and put it in an "Art" series of amps, I would be more than happy with the level of quality and features. It would seem silly to do so, but the question would be... Would they sell better just because they are "Art"? Maybe. Maybe they would be just another great amp that does not sell well. We have done this quite a few times on teh Soundstream side. We make something that os off the charts with quality and a unique identity, but they do not sell. After they get closed out a few years later, THEN EVERYBODY DECIDES THEY HAVE TO HAVE ONE! Go figure, huh? The fact is that we need an amplifier series that is black and copper. If I had my my way, I would make this new series and couple it with the Art SQ subs and PC components, creating a new series that encompasses all of the black and copper products that I have put so much time and energy into. Moreover, I love these products the most!
> 
> So, that is my dilemma...


I completely understand where you are coming from. We all have the ideal amps in mind with the ideal specs but nobody including myself is willing to pay for that. I personally am eyeballing the PPI components, PC amps and SQ 12 subs for my personal install. Just need to get home to get started. We live in different times and what I said to Carolyn was for Carolyn. The real world has to have a low bottom line or stuff just isnt going to sell. The purist is 1 percent of the makeup. That doesn't keep you in business. 

This may sound weird but start the new series with the sq subs, the pc components and the new amps and call them the "Archer Series"; we all respect you and that is not ass kissing that is the sign of the times my friend. This board knows you're an honest hardworking guy and it shines through the PPI line.

Archer or Arch Series respectively
>>>>-------------------->


----------



## roxj01

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

how about the copper series.... with model numbers that start with cu (same as the periodic table)


----------



## rugdnit

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> All,
> 
> Here is an issue I am faced with regarding Art... The Art Series was, in its day, the high end line. Later, Power Class became the high end line. So which one should be the high end line now? Art lovers will say Art Series and vice versa. To make an amplifier higher than the new Power Class would not be an easy task, but more importantly, it would not sell. The Power Class doe snot move in the numbers we need it to now, so a more expensive amplifier would be a monumental waste of time. I KNOW, we would all love it, but "love" does not pay the bills or justify expenses. The new series that we will be doing does fit between Sedonna and PC, but closer to Sedonna, but with balanced line inputs. Heck, if I could take the same exact board from the PC and put it in an "Art" series of amps, I would be more than happy with the level of quality and features. It would seem silly to do so, but the question would be... Would they sell better just because they are "Art"? Maybe. Maybe they would be just another great amp that does not sell well. We have done this quite a few times on teh Soundstream side. *We make something that os off the charts with quality and a unique identity, but they do not sell. After they get closed out a few years later, THEN EVERYBODY DECIDES THEY HAVE TO HAVE ONE! Go figure, huh?* The fact is that we need an amplifier series that is black and copper. If I had my my way, I would make this new series and couple it with the Art SQ subs and PC components, creating a new series that encompasses all of the black and copper products that I have put so much time and energy into. Moreover, I love these products the most!
> 
> So, that is my dilemma...


Have seen this in more than a few industries. Frustrating, but from what I have seen at least in other industries is that a certain line does not run long enough. People have gotten used to shopping for last years item/look and discounted. Often times this is the mfg's fault for trying to stimulate sales by introducing new product. On the other hand I blame consumers who buy into this as well. The sales circle of life. In any case I appreciate what you have to go through since ownership wants / demands higher turns and you have to find a way to keep us happy. Those two things don't often collide is the same environment. You have enough brands to accommodate each segment of the market, so with the PPI line I agree with others in regards to a rebirth of the brand. Hopefully you have ownership that understands this and is willing to see it through.


----------



## alachua

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Not to rehash our discussion in this thread from before the whole Dave saga, but my personal opinion is that if you want to differentiate this series and garner a wider audience, make it class d/g/h and compete between the alpine PDX and JL HD series. The market has a dump truck load of quality A/B amps, Epsilon themselves have at least half a dozen lines of them. I know your goal is to launch the product within a reasonable time frame, but adding another SKU that doesn't meet expectations is not what you or the market needs. Forget the grumblings of the A/B old school purists...its hard to discount them, but they probably aren't your target market when it comes down to moving new products. An amp that is 30% smaller, draws significantly less current and fits where others don't fit gives your authorized dealers a real, tangible feature to sell your product, not just relying on decades old nostalgia.


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

I kinda agree here! How about a 8channel amp 100x8 or 6channels. Even if the end up larger.. it would be even better if some heavy powered 5.1 or 7.1 could be made to ride along with the firetorm that the ms-8 has brought forth. 7x100 and 500x1 no xovers or anything like that...just sweet sweet power! call it the sniper line cause it would be like one shot one kill for people shopping for multi channel setups!


----------



## PPI_GUY

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

What Grizz is looking for is a product that will appeal to and "sell up" consumers who think they can only afford the Sedona series amp. Whether that is because of appearance or features, people who were initially firm on buying a Sedona need to be moved to pay alittle more for the "new" series. 
Going full range, Class D would probably put cost beyond that of the PC series so, that probably isn't an option. Neither is a high current design. 
So what does that leave us SQ fans? Balanced inputs is a good start. What about a more flexible crossover? Smaller/narrower chassis? More involved onboard diagnostics? Onboard processing (beyond bass boost)? Active liquid cooling integrated into the heatsink? Maybe even a way to personalize the amp thru cosmetic changes or engraveable data plates?
I still like the *Pro SQ Series *as a name. 
Thought of another too...*Prodigy*

Just thinking as I type. Hoping to strike gold...or copper as the case may be.


----------



## audiogodz1

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> All,
> 
> Here is an issue I am faced with regarding Art... The Art Series was, in its day, the high end line. Later, Power Class became the high end line. So which one should be the high end line now? Art lovers will say Art Series and vice versa. To make an amplifier higher than the new Power Class would not be an easy task, but more importantly, it would not sell. The Power Class doe snot move in the numbers we need it to now, so a more expensive amplifier would be a monumental waste of time. I KNOW, we would all love it, but "love" does not pay the bills or justify expenses. The new series that we will be doing does fit between Sedonna and PC, but closer to Sedonna, but with balanced line inputs. Heck, if I could take the same exact board from the PC and put it in an "Art" series of amps, I would be more than happy with the level of quality and features. It would seem silly to do so, but the question would be... Would they sell better just because they are "Art"? Maybe. Maybe they would be just another great amp that does not sell well. We have done this quite a few times on teh Soundstream side. We make something that os off the charts with quality and a unique identity, but they do not sell. After they get closed out a few years later, THEN EVERYBODY DECIDES THEY HAVE TO HAVE ONE! Go figure, huh? The fact is that we need an amplifier series that is black and copper. If I had my my way, I would make this new series and couple it with the Art SQ subs and PC components, creating a new series that encompasses all of the black and copper products that I have put so much time and energy into. Moreover, I love these products the most!
> 
> So, that is my dilemma...


Well back in the day the Art were broken into classes within the Art ranks. There were Art and Pro-Art. Why not go back to that and eliminate the rest, power class and all, except the Sedona series for the cheapskates. 

People who competed bought the Pro-Art (cheaters). People who wanted the sound of a comp amp without the budget bought the standard Art amp (those Pro Arts were pricey!). People who didn't care either way bought the Sedona. That system worked just fine.


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



tvrift said:


> My opinion:
> 
> You need something that truly stands out from the rest of your line, something special, unique, the "Crown Jewel".
> 
> The so called "Crown Jewel" is the beacon that gets everyone's attention. Without it, I fear PPI will just fall in the "they make good stuff, but nothing to rave about category" and eventually fail.
> 
> Look at JL, for example. They have lots of average lines, but also the high-end lines that nobody (well..most of us) dont want to pay for, yet many still do..and MANY other companies do the same thing. IMO, PPI needs a ultra high end line, something that draws attention, IMO the ART name itself isnt enough to bring people back, and if the Art isnt as amazing as it once was, then people will just pass on it.


I hear ya. Beacons attract via vision, not by aural senses. So aesthetics is king for an "Art" series, if there ever is one. I completely understand what you said about JL. We do the same thing for Soundstream. People screamed for the return of Reference amps. But they are not big sellers. Plus we have the insane Human Reign which sell much less than the Reference. In the PPI line, we have the new Power Class which also is not a huge seller. As I said before, it would be difficult to make an amp better than the PC series. But more importantly, it would be a monumental waste of time. PPI would fail if we had 2 high end amps that nobody will pay for.

DS-21 yielded a suggestion that we might consider making a full-range class D series for Art with a small footprint. I kind of rebuked the idea because I really dreamed of having something very reminescent of the original series. But I need to man-up and say that the more I hear from you guys, my team, and general people in the industry, I like the idea. That is something that PPI does not have, something modest in size. Everything is farily typical. Now, don't all of you get all excited in a good way or bad way. Nothing is happening for now. My point is that to make this "beacon" series, aesthetics will be probably more important than anything. Maybe I said that wrong. For example, we have an amp rated at 95 point for aesthetics and 80 points for performance. We also have an amp with the same ratings, but reversed. Which one will sell better? Simple, the first one. Looks better and probably cheaper to make due to parts.

I really wish I could go back to the design stages, and use this forum to prove to our company that Art series is more respected. Was it better? That is subjective, but appearance is everything. Sex sells, right? So if I made a future Art Series with phenomenal cosmetics and a full-range class D board, would you buy it for 20%-30% less than Power Class? Or wopuld it have to be better than PC. And who is the hell would know the difference anyway? The fact is, only the anal audio freak like you guys and myself will open the back to check it out. If it is a D amp, the boards will be boring to look at. 

Anyway, sorry for the tangent, but not you know what keeps me awake at night...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



fertigaudio said:


> I completely understand where you are coming from. We all have the ideal amps in mind with the ideal specs but nobody including myself is willing to pay for that. I personally am eyeballing the PPI components, PC amps and SQ 12 subs for my personal install. Just need to get home to get started. We live in different times and what I said to Carolyn was for Carolyn. The real world has to have a low bottom line or stuff just isnt going to sell. The purist is 1 percent of the makeup. That doesn't keep you in business.
> 
> This may sound weird but start the new series with the sq subs, the pc components and the new amps and call them the "Archer Series"; we all respect you and that is not ass kissing that is the sign of the times my friend. This board knows you're an honest hardworking guy and it shines through the PPI line.
> 
> Archer or Arch Series respectively
> >>>>-------------------->


On no you didn't! You did not just say that! Man, I can't imagine how much crap I will get for that one. My friend, I am nobody in this industry and just wanna have fun. There are some gurus still around that deserve to have the name on an amp. Remember, I am pretty humble, though a bit obnoxious at times. The only way there will ever be an Archer series is if we move over to a theme of assassins ro weapons. lol Yeah, we can have the Archer series, Sniper Series, Ninja Series, etc. NOPE, doesn't even sound at all cool.

I did however have some subs made for me at one point call GRIZZ-10 through GRIZZ-15. But I realized that if I ever wanted to get serious about selling them nationwide, I needed money to make it all happen. Wel, that was the end of that idea...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



roxj01 said:


> how about the copper series.... with model numbers that start with cu (same as the periodic table)


A few great minds think alike...


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> I hear ya. Beacons attract via vision, not by aural senses. So aesthetics is king for an "Art" series, if there ever is one. I completely understand what you said about JL. We do the same thing for Soundstream. People screamed for the return of Reference amps. But they are not big sellers. Plus we have the insane Human Reign which sell much less than the Reference. In the PPI line, we have the new Power Class which also is not a huge seller. As I said before, it would be difficult to make an amp better than the PC series. But more importantly, it would be a monumental waste of time. PPI would fail if we had 2 high end amps that nobody will pay for.
> 
> DS-21 yielded a suggestion that we might consider making a full-range class D series for Art with a small footprint. I kind of rebuked the idea because I really dreamed of having something very reminescent of the original series. But I need to man-up and say that the more I hear from you guys, my team, and general people in the industry, I like the idea. That is something that PPI does not have, something modest in size. Everything is farily typical. Now, don't all of you get all excited in a good way or bad way. Nothing is happening for now. My point is that to make this "beacon" series, aesthetics will be probably more important than anything. Maybe I said that wrong. For example, we have an amp rated at 95 point for aesthetics and 80 points for performance. We also have an amp with the same ratings, but reversed. Which one will sell better? Simple, the first one. Looks better and probably cheaper to make due to parts.
> 
> I really wish I could go back to the design stages, and use this forum to prove to our company that Art series is more respected. Was it better? That is subjective, but appearance is everything. Sex sells, right? So if I made a future Art Series with phenomenal cosmetics and a full-range class D board, would you buy it for 20%-30% less than Power Class? Or wopuld it have to be better than PC. And who is the hell would know the difference anyway? The fact is, only the anal audio freak like you guys and myself will open the back to check it out. If it is a D amp, the boards will be boring to look at.
> 
> Anyway, sorry for the tangent, but not you know what keeps me awake at night...


I think I know what would sell on this forum: 
- Small footprint class D (PDx size is fine, no need to go smaller unless you can without making the chassis too hot) 
- Low profile to fit under a seat 
- Zero noise floor 
- Really efficient closer to 80% (JL XD6 (85%) is 10% more efficient than the HD4 - as per Autohifi Magazine) 
- flexibility of crossover Bandpass from 15Hz to 8kHz (DLS A7 has some of the best crossover capabilities) 
- And why not make a mono amp that is full range producing 250rms or more @ 4 ohm so that people can buy a multitude of those if they need big powered system. 

I think that's pretty much it. 

Kelvin 

PS: please tell me if I'm too far from the truth


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



alachua said:


> Not to rehash our discussion in this thread from before the whole Dave saga, but my personal opinion is that if you want to differentiate this series and garner a wider audience, make it class d/g/h and compete between the alpine PDX and JL HD series. The market has a dump truck load of quality A/B amps, Epsilon themselves have at least half a dozen lines of them. I know your goal is to launch the product within a reasonable time frame, but adding another SKU that doesn't meet expectations is not what you or the market needs. Forget the grumblings of the A/B old school purists...its hard to discount them, but they probably aren't your target market when it comes down to moving new products. An amp that is 30% smaller, draws significantly less current and fits where others don't fit gives your authorized dealers a real, tangible feature to sell your product, not just relying on decades old nostalgia.


Funny, I just did a post about this referring back to a suggestion I received. The PDX amps started the whole stackable thing. Several other company soon caught on. I wanted to jump on the wagon but I wanted to take a diffferent approach. There is a problem with stacking amplifiers,a nd anybody that works is a shop has seen it. Not always, but sometimes. Heat goes where? Up! So why in the hell would you put an amp on top of another one when you are forcing heat right into the amp on top and reducing the bity of both amps to cool themselves? So, when we did the SS Stealth amps, we made sure that there was enough cooling surface area/mass on the side of the amps. Notice that the Stealth ampos have a Lexan top. They do not have the overheating problems. I gave them an insane preamp section, making it almost impossible to have a required xover need that the amp does not have available. HPF, LFF, Subsonic and Bandpass filters. Freaking everything. But guess what. Most people buy it for the size and do not understand what I just explained to you guys. Anyway, I am leaning more and more towards wanting this, but we'll see...


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> ...The only way there will ever be an Archer series is if we move over to a theme of assassins ro weapons. lol Yeah, we can have the Archer series, Sniper Series, Ninja Series, etc. NOPE, doesn't even sound at all cool...


You should create a new brand: "KILLING SOUND" 

I'm sure some SPL Team would ... well KILL... to have that sticker on their windshield... 

Kelvin


----------



## PPI-ART

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Alright Grizz, screw this. How much does CHY need to let you guys do the Art? 
I'm taking up a fund. I'm in with some cash. Who else? LOL


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



rexroadj said:


> I kinda agree here! How about a 8channel amp 100x8 or 6channels. Even if the end up larger.. it would be even better if some heavy powered 5.1 or 7.1 could be made to ride along with the firetorm that the ms-8 has brought forth. 7x100 and 500x1 no xovers or anything like that...just sweet sweet power! call it the sniper line cause it would be like one shot one kill for people shopping for multi channel setups!


FYI, the Art series was goijng to have a 6ch amp; 4x70 and 2x180. Anyway, to your thought. Look at the Soundstream Stealth STL6.620. It has 4x60 and 2x100. But it quite unique, really. The amp section was a snap, but the preamp section was a nightmare thanx to me. lol 1&2 HPF, 3&4 HPF & LPF, 6 HPF & LPF, 5 can copy 6 or drop out into its own center channel, etc... The processing is insane, but actually pretty easy to install. So, it is a 6 channel than can be bridged down to 3, or be used as a 5-ch with 5&6 bridged, or it can be 5.1, and get this, since ch 3-6 are all "bandpassable", it is perfect for 3-way components, all active and in a footprint that is only 2.125" high. 6.5" wide and 11.25" long. Since that is the larger of the two sizes available in the series, it is also stackable with the 1200 monoblock, 4x80 or 2x150.

I think it covers everything, but if you got other requirements, PLEASE tell me because, as you may have noticed, all the amps that I designed the pre amps sections for have extensive options. Even the entry level Sedonna amps. Actually, I suppose they should not be called entry level. How about most affordable? lol


----------



## DS-21

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> DS-21 yielded a suggestion that we might consider making a full-range class D series for Art with a small footprint. I kind of rebuked the idea because I really dreamed of having something very reminescent of the original series. But I need to man-up and say that the more I hear from you guys, my team, and general people in the industry, I like the idea. That is something that PPI does not have, something modest in size. Everything is farily typical. Now, don't all of you get all excited in a good way or bad way. Nothing is happening for now.


The one thing I would add to that is that I think to stand out in the market it needs to be a different form factor from the Jellos, Kenwoods_, Pioneers_, JVCs_, Ubuys, Eclipses_, etc. Everyone seems to be making their Class D amps in a low, squarish form factor. (JBL_, Jello, Kenwood_ XR, Alpine_ PDX, Pioneer_ PRS, and so on.) Something in a narrower/longer shape (along the lines of the Ubuy-made Eton MA75.4) or perhaps a miniturized version of your Soundstream towers.



Grizz Archer said:


> So if I made a future Art Series with phenomenal cosmetics and a full-range class D board, would you buy it for 20%-30% less than Power Class? Or wopuld it have to be better than PC.


Sonically, I'd expect they'd both be the same (flat FR, low distortion, etc.). Price-power wise, they'd need to be competitive with the other amps out there. I think that's a better benchmark than the PC's. But something spec'ing out similar to the PC640 would be a nice start.

People will know the difference only because it's smaller and runs cooler. 

PS: I gotta admit, "Arch Series" has a nice ring to it.


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



PPI_GUY said:


> What Grizz is looking for is a product that will appeal to and "sell up" consumers who think they can only afford the Sedona series amp. Whether that is because of appearance or features, people who were initially firm on buying a Sedona need to be moved to pay alittle more for the "new" series.
> Going full range, Class D would probably put cost beyond that of the PC series so, that probably isn't an option. Neither is a high current design.
> So what does that leave us SQ fans? Balanced inputs is a good start. What about a more flexible crossover? Smaller/narrower chassis? More involved onboard diagnostics? Onboard processing (beyond bass boost)? Active liquid cooling integrated into the heatsink? Maybe even a way to personalize the amp thru cosmetic changes or engraveable data plates?
> I still like the *Pro SQ Series *as a name.
> Thought of another too...*Prodigy*
> 
> Just thinking as I type. Hoping to strike gold...or copper as the case may be.


Actually, my friend, we could probably so fullrange cheaper, but I can't think of better xovers than what are on all of our amps since I got here 3 years ago. I may be humble, but I will brag about that becuase I did that for myself and all of you that are as anal as myself. I do not want to have to buy processors for this and that. I want as much as I can physically fit at my fingertips... 

I like Pro SQ as well, but there is one problem. The SQ subs are all about sound. They do not hanble alot of power because that was the least important thing of all when designng these.  They are all about performance, no BS parts, no BS tooling, nada. Just stuff that makes sense and looks good in black and copper.


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



audiogodz1 said:


> Well back in the day the Art were broken into classes within the Art ranks. There were Art and Pro-Art. Why not go back to that and eliminate the rest, power class and all, except the Sedona series for the cheapskates.
> 
> People who competed bought the Pro-Art (cheaters). People who wanted the sound of a comp amp without the budget bought the standard Art amp (those Pro Arts were pricey!). People who didn't care either way bought the Sedona. That system worked just fine.


The cheapskates are those who keep everybody in business. There are alot of people who loved the Powee Class and gre up with that after we did with Art. It is hard for each generation to appreciate the other's preference. Hell, if I had my way, I would have brought back the ProMos12 in January! I LOVE ProMos!!!

But again, the fact is that we are not moving forward with Art. We are stepping down the board we had for a new series that will be above Sedonna and with balanced lines.


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> FYI, the Art series was goijng to have a 6ch amp; 4x70 and 2x180. Anyway, to your thought. Look at the Soundstream Stealth STL6.620. It has 4x60 and 2x100. But it quite unique, really. The amp section was a snap, but the preamp section was a nightmare thanx to me. lol 1&2 HPF, 3&4 HPF & LPF, 6 HPF & LPF, 5 can copy 6 or drop out into its own center channel, etc... The processing is insane, but actually pretty easy to install. So, it is a 6 channel than can be bridged down to 3, or be used as a 5-ch with 5&6 bridged, or it can be 5.1, and get this, since ch 3-6 are all "bandpassable", it is perfect for 3-way components, all active and in a footprint that is only 2.125" high. 6.5" wide and 11.25" long. Since that is the larger of the two sizes available in the series, it is also stackable with the 1200 monoblock, 4x80 or 2x150.
> 
> I think it covers everything, but if you got other requirements, PLEASE tell me because, as you may have noticed, all the amps that I designed the pre amps sections for have extensive options. Even the entry level Sedonna amps. Actually, I suppose they should not be called entry level. How about most affordable? lol


I for one love that line of amps...I would like to see more power though...100x?? Since you have that line already with the xovers (and they are awesome and very useful/practical xovers) lets just get some solid power and nothing else. You guys dont seem to have anything like that on the list. Dont get me wrong you guys are one of the few companys that integrate the xovers you do. I ran a whole 4way active setup off two ss ref amps and it was amazing! Between power and xovers that those amps provided I am not sure you can find to many other companys that can do that they way it did and for the price paid. Now I (and think a lot of others) are more interested in a one amp solution to run a full setup via an ms-8. If I could put one amp in with all that power (one set of connections etc...one location of connections) and add the ms-8 or the like and be able run it all off that!!!!!!! HOLY **** THAT WOULD BE AWESOME! OR if someone wants to run a 3way active from something like the new premier deck or bitone etc.... I think there is a market for just POWER! 
Could just be me though (although in my truck.....the HRU.4 stays! You will have to pry that out of my cold dead hands


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



subwoofery said:


> I think I know what would sell on this forum:
> - Small footprint class D (PDx size is fine, no need to go smaller unless you can without making the chassis too hot)
> - Low profile to fit under a seat
> - Zero noise floor
> - Really efficient closer to 80% (JL XD6 (85%) is 10% more efficient than the HD4 - as per Autohifi Magazine)
> - flexibility of crossover Bandpass from 15Hz to 8kHz (DLS A7 has some of the best crossover capabilities)
> - And why not make a mono amp that is full range producing 250rms or more @ 4 ohm so that people can buy a multitude of those if they need big powered system.
> 
> I think that's pretty much it.
> 
> Kelvin
> 
> PS: please tell me if I'm too far from the truth



-Agreed, did it with SS Stealth. And by the way, Stealth is AB, not D like everybody tends to think!
-I can fit 2 under alot of seats
-Zero is not a number... lol
-Auto HiFI rocks! Are you getting it in print? If not, My wife is going hokme to Germany in 3 weeks and I can have her bring you the current issue like she will for me. But since were neighbors, you need to come pick it up with a 6-pack of good beer. Deal?
-15Hz - 8kHz? Man, you kill me! I thought 4kHz was enough. Shame on me! But otherwise, been there, done that, been doing that to every amp under SS for that last 3 years and PPI for this year. 

Anything else besides raising the xover point to 8kHz sir? Man you are picky! But I got you covered. BTW, to make an Xover from 15Hz - 8kHz would take 3-way switch if I am not mistaken. Our uses a multiplier already, and if it were not for my detented pots, setting them without a scope would be a nightmare. If we make it from 15Hz -8kHz, if you go one more click, the jump in frequency would be extremly high and hard to control.

Great input neighbor, thanx!


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



subwoofery said:


> You should create a new brand: "KILLING SOUND"
> 
> I'm sure some SPL Team would ... well KILL... to have that sticker on their windshield...
> 
> Kelvin


You have whack sense of humor, but you're probably right! We should get together for a beer and chat. Newport Beach Brewing Company or Huntington Beach Brewing Company. I'm cool either way...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



PPI-ART said:


> Alright Grizz, screw this. How much does CHY need to let you guys do the Art?
> I'm taking up a fund. I'm in with some cash. Who else? LOL


Need? Want? She never have me a price. It was me that said we just cannot afford her talent. But if you start saving now, for CES 2012...


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> -Agreed, did it with SS Stealth. And by the way, Stealth is AB, not D like everybody tends to think!
> -I can fit 2 under alot of seats
> -Zero is not a number... lol
> -Auto HiFI rocks! Are you getting it in print? If not, My wife is going hokme to Germany in 3 weeks and I can have her bring you the current issue like she will for me. But since were neighbors, you need to come pick it up with a 6-pack of good beer. Deal?
> -15Hz - 8kHz? Man, you kill me! I thought 4kHz was enough. Shame on me! But otherwise, been there, done that, been doing that to every amp under SS for that last 3 years and PPI for this year.
> 
> Anything else besides raising the xover point to 8kHz sir? Man you are picky! But I got you covered. BTW, to make an Xover from 15Hz - 8kHz would take 3-way switch if I am not mistaken. Our uses a multiplier already, and if it were not for my detented pots, setting them without a scope would be a nightmare. If we make it from 15Hz -8kHz, if you go one more click, the jump in frequency would be extremly high and hard to control.
> 
> Great input neighbor, thanx!


I'll send you an e-mail regarding... the beers  

Kelvin

PS: I actually got the pdfs from their website so if you want to have copies of those, you should bring your laptop when we meet. Just tell me which brand you need


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



DS-21 said:


> The one thing I would add to that is that I think to stand out in the market it needs to be a different form factor from the Jellos, Kenwoods_, Pioneers_, JVCs_, Ubuys, Eclipses_, etc. Everyone seems to be making their Class D amps in a low, squarish form factor. (JBL_, Jello, Kenwood_ XR, Alpine_ PDX, Pioneer_ PRS, and so on.) Something in a narrower/longer shape (along the lines of the Ubuy-made Eton MA75.4) or perhaps a miniturized version of your Soundstream towers.
> 
> 
> 
> Sonically, I'd expect they'd both be the same (flat FR, low distortion, etc.). Price-power wise, they'd need to be competitive with the other amps out there. I think that's a better benchmark than the PC's. But something spec'ing out similar to the PC640 would be a nice start.
> 
> People will know the difference only because it's smaller and runs cooler.
> 
> PS: I gotta admit, "Arch Series" has a nice ring to it.



The Stealth AB series is only 6.5" wide. Is that narrow enough? Are the Stealth footprints small enough overall or would they need to be even smaller?

Actually, the sedonna dn PC seris are both in an "Oval-ly" Arch shape already. And to perfectly frank, I do not care for the appearance. Just my opinion but I told them not to put too much stock into the newer PC style chassis. If I had to choose one, I actually think the Sedonna looks better than the PC. I'm opbviously OS so I like Art and ProMos. But I would have liked something different. Our runner up design that did not get used was also oval-ly. One of our reps that sold PPI swore that this was the right thing to do. I'd rather rip the board out and mill my own heatink or bolt it to a slap or aluminum and custom paint it something. Crap, there I go being a bit to honest again...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



rexroadj said:


> I for one love that line of amps...I would like to see more power though...100x?? Since you have that line already with the xovers (and they are awesome and very useful/practical xovers) lets just get some solid power and nothing else. You guys dont seem to have anything like that on the list. Dont get me wrong you guys are one of the few companys that integrate the xovers you do. I ran a whole 4way active setup off two ss ref amps and it was amazing! Between power and xovers that those amps provided I am not sure you can find to many other companys that can do that they way it did and for the price paid. Now I (and think a lot of others) are more interested in a one amp solution to run a full setup via an ms-8. If I could put one amp in with all that power (one set of connections etc...one location of connections) and add the ms-8 or the like and be able run it all off that!!!!!!! HOLY **** THAT WOULD BE AWESOME! OR if someone wants to run a 3way active from something like the new premier deck or bitone etc.... I think there is a market for just POWER!
> Could just be me though (although in my truck.....the HRU.4 stays! You will have to pry that out of my cold dead hands


Man, back before huge power was available, I loved the ADS 8ch amp. I think it was called a PQ8. Freaking cool amp. I too love 1-amp solutiuons. But when you go from 1-4 channels which is typical to 6-8 channel and you want big power, that gets big in size and dollars. I would love design an amp with 4x50 for the front tweeters and midrange, 2x100 for the front midbass and rear fill, 1x60-100 for a channel and 1x700 for a sub. I want the exact same processing I have on the Reference and Power Class now, but I want an infinitely variable phase pot from 0-270 instead of 180 and one for all 8 channels. I want is all Class AB SMT rather than D and I want it all controlled telepathically. It also need to be clarivoyant so if I see some hot chick it turns it up, and if I drive by a cop, it turns it down, so I do not get a ticket, AGAIN!!! Oh yeah and an auxiliary output for a keg pump! Anybody anybody wanna build me one?! Will barter! LOL


----------



## giabyul

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Hey guys here is a test of the Power Class amp from PAS mag. It apparently exceeded all the factory specs. It's a nice short to the point write up. I just might have to pick a couple of the Power Class amps up. PASMAG | PERFORMANCE AUTO AND SOUND - Precision Power PC640.4 Amplifier


----------



## AAAAAAA

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Grizz, isn't your 6 channel actually 4.x inches high? That's not particularly small IMO. All the sites that have them for sale shows them being thick and advertises 4.xx inches high....basically a pre-stacked amplifier.









As for the 6.5inch wide...it is still pretty wide, I think DS would like something closer to 5 like the ubuy amp he refers to and massive audio's nano line. Quite literally, all "small amps" are th more or less square shape and only a few are narrow and most of those few are the rebadged ubuy amps.

IMO when it comes to small amps, if we see a small amp and I don't see class D I am not trusting it much... definitly don't see why I would pay premium for it. In my eyes, and probably others to, that small form factor and class AB doesn't make sense. We know class AB is cheep to make and makes a lot of heat, so it doesn't add up.

Class D, tripath, GH is a more sophisticated technology and makes sense to pay more for it in a small form factor, everything "lines up" in the consumers mind. Class AB and small seems like corners were cut.

I have noticed that all soundsteam has good xovers in them, I think that is a big plus, props for that. To me it's a no-brainer but almost no one does it...I don't get it.

I really like the class D idea for the art\arch replacement series.
I really like the mono's to be full range as well, only JL does this as far as I know.
For xovers, why not have a digital display instead of a pot:modernize.


----------



## DS-21

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> The Stealth AB series is only 6.5" wide. Is that narrow enough? Are the Stealth footprints small enough overall or would they need to be even smaller?


Well, smaller is always better, so long as it's not so small that it doesn't have enough heat-sinking. (I'm not opposed to fans, either.) And ideally I would like the amp a bit narrower, but that's just me. (I forget, are the Stealths 6.5" wide with the side pieces on or with them off?)

But just speaking for me, something the rough form-factor of the STL4.500 (or maybe a bit narrower and if need be a little longer) but a nice step up in power (say 125x4/4Ω per CEA-2006) at the price point you mentioned (20% less than the equivalent PC amp) would be very competitive in the marketplace.

I do understand why most everyone is going for the square form factor. Many of these amps go under seats, and a squat square is by far the most efficient form factor for that application. But that has left a hole for amps that can fit in other spaces, and the Class G/H Ubuy mini amps (Eton, elfAudio, Arc, etc.) are the only ones to have filled it thus far.

Also, if you happen to recall off-hand, what's the efficiency of the STL4.500?



Grizz Archer said:


> Actually, the sedonna dn PC seris are both in an "Oval-ly" Arch shape already.


I wasn't thinking in terms of shape. More another definition: impious, mischevious, etc. And it's a shout-out to you.



giabyul said:


> Hey guys here is a test of the Power Class amp from PAS mag.


Interesting. I wish they'd post their data, though. Is it in the paper magazine? (I've never picked one up.)


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



AAAAAAA said:


> Grizz, isn't your 6 channel actually 4.x inches high? That's not particularly small IMO. All the sites that have them for sale shows them being thick and advertises 4.xx inches high....basically a pre-stacked amplifier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the 6.5inch wide...it is still pretty wide, I think DS would like something closer to 5 like the ubuy amp he refers to and massive audio's nano line. Quite literally, all "small amps" are th more or less square shape and only a few are narrow and most of those few are the rebadged ubuy amps.
> 
> IMO when it comes to small amps, if we see a small amp and I don't see class D I am not trusting it much... definitly don't see why I would pay premium for it. In my eyes, and probably others to, that small form factor and class AB doesn't make sense. We know class AB is cheep to make and makes a lot of heat, so it doesn't add up.
> 
> Class D, tripath, GH is a more sophisticated technology and makes sense to pay more for it in a small form factor, everything "lines up" in the consumers mind. Class AB and small seems like corners were cut.
> 
> I have noticed that all soundsteam has good xovers in them, I think that is a big plus, props for that. To me it's a no-brainer but almost no one does it...I don't get it.
> 
> I really like the class D idea for the art\arch replacement series.
> I really like the mono's to be full range as well, only JL does this as far as I know.
> For xovers, why not have a digital display instead of a pot:modernize.


Hmmmm....Gotcha. The Nano at 5.5" is super skinny. Yesm the 6-Channel is 4 " high. I had the choice to make it long or high. If you took the smallest nano mono and the 4 channel, you would be at 17.2" not including the space between the amps. Mine is 11.25". If you stack a set like those compardd to mine, they would be fairly similar, but mine would only need single 12V inputs and have alot more processing and options. One may not be better than the other, that is not the point. We just went two separate routes. I wanted mine with a smaller footprint that 17"+, a single 12V input and to be still stackable with 3 of the other amps in the series for unlimited expansion capabilities.

I understand you view on AB vs D in small amps. There are some that so not like the idea of fullrange D amps and wanted something small in AB. Cooling has not been an issue. They were fully tested with the lexan top before going to production. And as I was saying, in stacked installs, they stay cooler than anything else we've tested.

We make a few AB monoblocks in another couple of series, but they are NOT small... lol

Man, you hit a hot spot with me. Digital display? I got something better, but have a cost issue to overcome. Will be freaking SICK if I can get it done! Muuuuahahaha!!!


----------



## DS-21

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

The other thing to consider adding (if not to this line, but perhaps to your flagship amps for both PPI and Soundstream) is an automated level-setting routine similar to what I've read the new JBL MS amps have: a CD with tones that allow the amp to automatically set input sensitivity.

That is, if Harman hasn't patented that approach.


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



DS-21 said:


> Well, smaller is always better, so long as it's not so small that it doesn't have enough heat-sinking. (I'm not opposed to fans, either.) And ideally I would like the amp a bit narrower, but that's just me. (I forget, are the Stealths 6.5" wide with the side pieces on or with them off?)
> 
> But just speaking for me, something the rough form-factor of the STL4.500 (or maybe a bit narrower and if need be a little longer) but a nice step up in power (say 125x4/4Ω per CEA-2006) at the price point you mentioned (20% less than the equivalent PC amp) would be very competitive in the marketplace.
> 
> I do understand why most everyone is going for the square form factor. Many of these amps go under seats, and a squat square is by far the most efficient form factor for that application. But that has left a hole for amps that can fit in other spaces, and the Class G/H Ubuy mini amps (Eton, elfAudio, Arc, etc.) are the only ones to have filled it thus far.
> 
> Also, if you happen to recall off-hand, what's the efficiency of the STL4.500?
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't thinking in terms of shape. More another definition: impious, mischevious, etc. And it's a shout-out to you.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. I wish they'd post their data, though. Is it in the paper magazine? (I've never picked one up.)


6.5" with the bling off. You do not sound like the blingy type of guy. Ok, so even less wide... That will require an aluminum top and more mass for sufficient cooling.

Ok, more power. Noted...

Eff? Not 100% sure so I just sent an email to the engineer... Should have a concrete, accurate answer tomorrow...


----------



## AAAAAAA

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

For the 6 channel, it's because in one of your posts you say it is 2.xx inches tall.. a typo I suppose. But it is a neet config, I think more amps should be made with such thought put in to them.



Grizz Archer said:


> If you took the smallest nano mono and the 4 channel, you would be at 17.2"


You are describing the nx5 amplifier, it is 15inches long 
Of course the nano is also class AB and much more expensive, the point is it's going different by going narrow...narrower.

I think you did a lot of things better with the stealth then the nanos, for one, you don't need to buy extra hardware to stack, you also have way better xovers.

The thing is the stealth is the same size and power output as the 2006ish planet audio bb series was. I don't find them personally to be that small.

In regards to full range monos.... not AB, class D. All class D mono's are limited to 300hz or so. It sucks.

Really it doesn't need to be D class, tripath or whatever that is * efficient*.

Now I am really wondering about your display...not digital... touch screen? Bluetooth control through a phone or something? That would be pretty nice.


----------



## AAAAAAA

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



DS-21 said:


> The other thing to consider adding (if not to this line, but perhaps to your flagship amps for both PPI and Soundstream) is an automated level-setting routine similar to what I've read the new JBL MS amps have: a CD with tones that allow the amp to automatically set input sensitivity.
> 
> That is, if Harman hasn't patented that approach.


A smart amp, no knobs and stuff would be nice.

But then we couldn't get more output by clipping the hell out of it hehe.
This 400watt ppi is not nearly as loud as this XBrand amp that also has 400watts with the gains up 9\10th.


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



DS-21 said:


> The other thing to consider adding (if not to this line, but perhaps to your flagship amps for both PPI and Soundstream) is an automated level-setting routine similar to what I've read the new JBL MS amps have: a CD with tones that allow the amp to automatically set input sensitivity.
> 
> That is, if Harman hasn't patented that approach.


Yikes, sounds cool but pricey. I would not try to cram that into an amp that you wany 3" wide and 4x125 watts! loll Just kidding bud. Most of the skinny amps are in the 5.5" range with 1 being just above 5", but only goes up to 4x75, which to be honest, I think is pretty impressive. I got the owner's ear today do I need to compile a list of the most said thing I have heard on here and take it to him. I wish he could just go back and read everything but that ain't gonna happen. I was just thinking. We have a board that is about 3" that normally has the fets flat. If they were bent up, the amp could be smaller than anything out there. But I think heat would be an issue. I'll just have to look into it after I make my list... Gotta remember, I am NOT the amplifier engineer, just the transducer guy. But I'll give 'em a piece of the DIYMA minds...


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



AAAAAAA said:


> For the 6 channel, it's because in one of your posts you say it is 2.xx inches tall.. a typo I suppose. But it is a neet config, I think more amps should be made with such thought put in to them.
> 
> 
> 
> You are describing the nx5 amplifier, it is 15inches long
> Of course the nano is also class AB and much more expensive, the point is it's going different by going narrow...narrower.
> 
> I think you did a lot of things better with the stealth then the nanos, for one, you don't need to buy extra hardware to stack, you also have way better xovers.
> 
> The thing is the stealth is the same size and power output as the 2006ish planet audio bb series was. I don't find them personally to be that small.
> 
> In regards to full range monos.... not AB, class D. All class D mono's are limited to 300hz or so. It sucks.
> 
> Really it doesn't need to be D class, tripath or whatever that is * efficient*.
> 
> Now I am really wondering about your display...not digital... touch screen? Bluetooth control through a phone or something? That would be pretty nice.


Gotcha, understood.

As for the display. I reserve the right to be a dickhead and not say anything at this time. Acutally, it is more like saving my butt and my job. I came up with it before I started he 3 years ago, but it has been a tough sell due to cost. Not giving up yet though...


----------



## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> On no you didn't! You did not just say that! Man, I can't imagine how much crap I will get for that one. My friend, I am nobody in this industry and just wanna have fun. There are some gurus still around that deserve to have the name on an amp. Remember, I am pretty humble, though a bit obnoxious at times. The only way there will ever be an Archer series is if we move over to a theme of assassins ro weapons. lol Yeah, we can have the Archer series, Sniper Series, Ninja Series, etc. NOPE, doesn't even sound at all cool.
> 
> I did however have some subs made for me at one point call GRIZZ-10 through GRIZZ-15. But I realized that if I ever wanted to get serious about selling them nationwide, I needed money to make it all happen. Wel, that was the end of that idea...


HAHA, I was serious. Hey I have more to send your way of engineering but I have to go fly (C-130s literally) be on here later.
Brandon.


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



AAAAAAA said:


> A smart amp, no knobs and stuff would be nice.
> 
> But then we couldn't get more output by clipping the hell out of it hehe.
> This 400watt ppi is not nearly as loud as this XBrand amp that also has 400watts with the gains up 9\10th.


LOL I think I'll gladly be .3dB less loud but with 3% less THD and with the gains appropriately matched at about 15% or so...


----------



## DS-21

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> 6.5" with the bling off. You do not sound like the blingy type of guy.


Ah. Afraid that's just a smidge too wide for my specific application. Unless the Planet Audio BB175.4B is actually a little bit bigger than 6.5". I'll have to measure.



Grizz Archer said:


> Yikes, sounds cool but pricey. I would not try to cram that into an amp that you wany 3" wide and 4x125 watts!


That would be a lot to ask for these mini-amps, but I think an auto-input system would be a nice touch for your statement product.



Grizz Archer said:


> Most of the skinny amps are in the 5.5" range with 1 being just above 5", but only goes up to 4x75, which to be honest, I think is pretty impressive.


Well, there are really only two skinny amps right now: the various Ubuy ones, and whoever makes the Massive Audio nanos.

But I agree. Especially considering the extra complexity in those amps. I would think a Class D circuit should be simpler than a Class G or H amp, though. After all, consider that Jello manages to get 4 80W full-range channels and 1 500W bandwidth-limited channel in a case volume of ~172 in^3. (MHD900/5, HD900/5). And Kenwood_ gets similar power (80x4 full range, 350W bandwidth limited) in even less volume, albeit with a fan for cooling. (XR-5S.)


----------



## nitropilot

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> Grizzly? lol Pretty funny since I am nothing like a bear. 5'10', beer belly and bald as a cue ball.


Sorry about that Grizz  I posted from my phone and didn't notice spell correction did that.


----------



## subwoofery

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



DS-21 said:


> Ah. Afraid that's just a smidge too wide for my specific application. Unless the Planet Audio BB175.4B is actually a little bit bigger than 6.5". I'll have to measure.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be a lot to ask for these mini-amps, but I think an auto-input system would be a nice touch for your statement product.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there are really only two skinny amps right now: the various Ubuy ones, and whoever makes the Massive Audio nanos.
> 
> But I agree. Especially considering the extra complexity in those amps. I would think a Class D circuit should be simpler than a Class G or H amp, though. After all, consider that Jello manages to get 4 80W full-range channels and 1 500W bandwidth-limited channel in a case volume of ~172 in^3. (MHD900/5, HD900/5). And Kenwood_ gets similar power (80x4 full range, 350W bandwidth limited) in even less volume, albeit with a fan for cooling. (XR-5S.)


If you need skinny skinny then you need to get either some Helix amps @ 1.78" or some Genesis Ultra amps @ 1.5" 

Kelvin 

PS: those are not exactly small or cheap


----------



## VTECnicalAccord

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



89grand said:


> Honestly, the whole idea is rather weak in my opinion. Art series amps, are Art series amps, that's it. It's better they died gracefully than be returned as mass market Epsilon amps. I've been against "new" Art series amps since I first heard about this many many months ago.
> 
> I bought my first Art series PPI A200 way back in 1993, and no other amp will be one no matter how much it looks like one.


I am on board with this thought. The Art series was, is, and always will be a classic. Leave them be. Don't bring back something that was great. Let them remain classics and don detract from the enthusiasm and interest people have for them by bring them "back".


----------



## wdemetrius1

I'm on board for the Arts, as long as they continue the tradition of what the original Arts stood for: "Absolutely State Of The Art". Would be nice.


----------



## putergod

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



89grand said:


> Honestly, the whole idea is rather weak in my opinion. Art series amps, are Art series amps, that's it. It's better they died gracefully than be returned as mass market Epsilon amps. I've been against "new" Art series amps since I first heard about this many many months ago.
> 
> I bought my first Art series PPI A200 way back in 1993, and no other amp will be one no matter how much it looks like one.


Epsilon has been doing this with all the great brands they have destroyed (SoundStream Reference for instance).

Any amp brand owned by Epsilon is nothing but chinese made garbage. They have destroyed so many great amps. RIP PPI.


----------



## db-r

I liked the old AM series amps better.


----------



## db-r

Maybe just me, but I prefer an industrial look (square corners, rugged) for my amplifiers. 

Pretty doesn't = performance in my book.

I agree the "Art" series is dead, they were great, and could never be again, just not the same. I say go with a whole new concept, build a amp that's rugged and sounds good and don't worry about gey ass artwork on it or funky lighting, etc, make a solid amp. 

BTW: Anything made in China (*as far as amps go*) is *FAIL* from the start. Don't do it. Hook up with the Korean factories and get a decent board to start with, then make it your own, they will work with you if you have the $$$. If you don't no point in doing it at all.

Even though Chinese amps (most) do rated power and sound okay, they have the cheapest circuit boards on the planet inside and every possible corner that can be cut has been cut. Not something I would be proud to own, no matter how well it performs, it's still a piece of junk inside, and could go "poof" at any time. Super CRAPPY build quality.


----------



## onebadmonte

Hey I want to play. Here is something I came up with.



















Here you can see the fin action a little better.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Not everyone is interested in a "skinny" design. Chassis size isn't that important to me as long as it stays reasonable. The old P-P-I M/AM and Art Series made plenty of power and didn't have an excessive footprint (exception; the 2300 was pretty large). Any of my Pro Mos amps would fit under a seat if I need them to. 
By the way Grizz, I just picked up a Pro Mos 12. It isn't black but, the price was right so, I grabbed it!
From reading this thread, I get the feeling that too many people are still under the illusion that we are contributing ideas for an Art Series amp redesign. From what Grizz has said, that isn't the case. The redesigned Art series were to have been a mid-level amp and the boards Epsilon has reflect that. So, now they have boards but, no heatsink design. Unless I have missed something, he has said a redesigned Art is off the table. Also, he needs something with a copper and black color scheme. 

If the new series is going to be between Sedona and the PC series in pricepoint, it would seem the options (other than heatsink design) are pretty limited. I think the mistake was made when someone decided to make the PC series top of the line. 
To compete with JayElle, Al-pine and others, the top of the line should have been a full range Class D amplifier with zero noise, super efficency and a pricepoint alittle below the competition.


----------



## fertigaudio

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> The only way there will ever be an Archer series is if we move over to a theme of assassins ro weapons. lol Yeah, we can have the Archer series, Sniper Series, Ninja Series, etc. .


You wouldnt happen to be referring to a certain FX show with the same name.  I have all 10 episodes season one and that crap is funny!!!!!!!!!



Grizz Archer said:


> A few great minds think alike...


There you go a few of us agree that Cu should be the beginning letters of the Copper series. (check my sketchup a few pages back)

Oh well, might as well give in and call it Copper. People have named amps chrome series and as was said before Copper is the new Chrome. DS21 nailed the design, small footprint, efficient design and something to compete with GH topologies. 

I like how this is coming along.


----------



## rc10mike

I still believe they need something truly innovative or top notch to bring back the "High End" image they lost when DEI took over...


----------



## fertigaudio

tvrift said:


> I still believe they need something truly innovative or top notch to bring back the "High End" image they lost when DEI took over...


^^^^what he said.


----------



## NRA4ever

I never had a PPI amp. I know they once had great quality just like the old Phoenix Gold ZX amps.I hear they were better than the PG amps. Both companies lost my support when they cut quality & used the name to sell crap. I have two 10 yr old ZX 475ti amps. They have been trouble free. The crossovers & other features in them are still state of art. I've run good sounding systems with just one of them. I drove a 3 way component front stage & a pair of 8 inch subs with plenty of power. It hit 130 playing the song Flashdance. The new PG amps can't touch the sound, quality & power of the ZX line. Sure my amp is huge but I'll make room for it. The new PPI or PG clones will never have the small company,built in the USA , quality name of the originals. The built in the USA sticker on my amps just looks great.


----------



## envisionelec

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



PPI_GUY said:


> Grizz has said the Art series is dead so, we should try for a design that looks NOTHING like the old Art sinks, including the CHY graphics. My vote (and the idea I sent to Grizz) is for an updated version of these bad boys...
> 
> 
> 
> ...I am thinking fatter fins with a radiused roll toward the long edges and some incorporation of the black & copper graphics and/or an illuminated P-P-I 'lightning bolt' somewhere on the heatsink.
> My idea for the name?
> 
> *PRO SQ Series*...example; *PRO SQ 300 *might be a 2x150 watt amp or a *PRO SQ 500 *might be a 2x250 watts or 500x1.
> You could even carry this nomenclature over to the Art subs and call them *PRO SQ 8 *and *PRO SQ 12 *


You can still buy those heatsinks if you don't like the new version. 










http://www.accellahabra.com/dynimages/pages/detail250.jpg


----------



## PPI_GUY

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



envisionelec said:


> You can still buy those heatsinks if you don't like the new version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.accellahabra.com/dynimages/pages/detail250.jpg


Thanks for that link. Might have to give them a call!


----------



## pat_smith1969

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> Man, back before huge power was available, I loved the ADS 8ch amp. I think it was called a PQ8. Freaking cool amp. I too love 1-amp solutiuons. But when you go from 1-4 channels which is typical to 6-8 channel and you want big power, that gets big in size and dollars. I would love design an amp with 4x50 for the front tweeters and midrange, 2x100 for the front midbass and rear fill, 1x60-100 for a channel and 1x700 for a sub. I want the exact same processing I have on the Reference and Power Class now, but I want an infinitely variable phase pot from 0-270 instead of 180 and one for all 8 channels. I want is all Class AB SMT rather than D and I want it all controlled telepathically. It also need to be clarivoyant so if I see some hot chick it turns it up, and if I drive by a cop, it turns it down, so I do not get a ticket, AGAIN!!! Oh yeah and an auxiliary output for a keg pump! Anybody anybody wanna build me one?! Will barter! LOL


Actually I think you could do really well making a "graduated amp". I remember seeing an amp by DLS (or Elemental Designs, or someone) that did 50x2, 75x2 and 300x1. With everyone running active these days I can see an amp that steps up the power for a given purpose being really useful. I personally would LOVE an amp that does 50x4, 150x2 and 500x1(2ohm on sub channel), or at least 50x2, 150x2 and 500x1. 

Alternately you could do kinda like what Rockford did back in the day and make a series of amps that "linked" via a cosmetic plat of some sort. They had their punch series that if you purchased the correct plates you could make a series of amps look like one large amp. With todays technology you could build a proprietary cable that carried the signal from amp to amp giving you just one wire runnign between all the amps. For your amp line up you could do a series of 2 channel amps that hooked together allowing the customer to configure their own amp to whatever specs they needed.

As far as xovers, I really don't get why you would put them on an amp in the first place... It seems to me that if you don't have time alignment the xovers are a waste (or at best a mild convenience). To get TA you are going to have to bypass the on-amp xovers anyways and buy an off board processor. It seems to be a waste of money to have a nice xover on an amp that you can never use. I would MUCH rather see an amp be a smidge cheaper without this feature, and have that company sell two processors, one that is just a basic xover and a full fledge TA able processor.


----------



## paulc35

Reproduce the amps of the 90s and give the outside case a nicer design.
Simple. I mean reproduce the amp on the inside of the 90s


----------



## JAX

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



putergod said:


> Epsilon has been doing this with all the great brands they have destroyed (SoundStream Reference for instance).
> 
> Any amp brand owned by Epsilon is nothing but chinese made garbage. They have destroyed so many great amps. RIP PPI.


kind of off the topic but what do you base your statement that they destroyed the REFERENCE line ? some have used it. I have not . Have you?

I do prefer my amps to come from Korea if they must be foreign..


----------



## JAX

NRA4ever said:


> I never had a PPI amp. I know they once had great quality just like the old Phoenix Gold ZX amps.I hear they were better than the PG amps. Both companies lost my support when they cut quality & used the name to sell crap. I have two 10 yr old ZX 475ti amps. They have been trouble free. The crossovers & other features in them are still state of art. I've run good sounding systems with just one of them. I drove a 3 way component front stage & a pair of 8 inch subs with plenty of power. It hit 130 playing the song Flashdance. The new PG amps can't touch the sound, quality & power of the ZX line. Sure my amp is huge but I'll make room for it. The new PPI or PG clones will never have the small company,built in the USA , quality name of the originals. The built in the USA sticker on my amps just looks great.



welcome fellow La member...

I must say very few amps have ever looked as good as a PG Zero Point ZPA 0.5 or a Son of Frank amp from PG ... the gold circuit boards were a thing of beauty...I have run all of them up to the Xenon and loved them all and honestly many of my fellow PG users also feel the Xenons and maybe RSD amps were as good sounding as the old school PG ..

I have had ARTS as well and have no complaints about them either but I have to say I favor the old PG over the PPI ...

sorry to stray..


----------



## putergod

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



JAX said:


> kind of off the topic but what do you base your statement that they destroyed the REFERENCE line ? some have used it. I have not . Have you?
> 
> I do prefer my amps to come from Korea if they must be foreign..


It doesn't take rocket science to look at the guts, and see it's the same crap as every other Epsilon made amp. I have SS Class A 10.0 that I've had since the mid 90's (bought new). Because of my love for SS, when I was in the market for a 4 channel amp about 6 or 7 years ago, I bought an Epsilon made SoundStream. I bought the new one before I found out SS had been bought by a massed producing, chinese outsourcing, craptastic company. That amp blew resistors off the board, literally, within 6 months. The old SS is still playing and sounding beautiful at 15 yrs old.

The SoundStream name has been destroyed. The PPI name was already scared, deeply, by DEI, and will now be finished off by Epsilon. Chinese made amps are garbage, period. Even JL. I bought a 500/1, because everyone said they were so great. That POS blew up on a 2 ohm load, and was NEVER over driven. It stunk my car up for over a week. That will be, without a doubt, the LAST Chinese built POS amp I will EVER buy!


----------



## DS-21

putergod said:


> Epsilon has been doing this with all the great brands they have destroyed (SoundStream Reference for instance).


Be fair. Soundstream had a reputation for unreliability WAY before Epsilon bought them. That's actually the main reason I bought my A404.2 back in 1994 or 1995 instead of the equivalent Soundstream!

I would expect they're better now.



db-r said:


> BTW: Anything made in China (*as far as amps go*) is *FAIL* from the start. Don't do it.


That's just silly. By your standard, the Jello HD series and XD series (both made in the PRC) are "fails."



PPI_GUY said:


> Not everyone is interested in a "skinny" design.


I agree with that. The reason I think a "skinny" design is the smarter way to go simply because nobody else is doing it. So it would be a unique selling point. After all, there are only a few possible USP's for audio amps. You can't say they "sound different," because unless they're incompetently designed or broken, they don't. (Or it could "sound different" if the competition is incompetently designed/broken, but one certainly cannot say that about the Jello HD, Kenwood XR_, and so on.) So there's size, form factor, cosmetics, and price.

Now, there may be some compelling performance, thermal management, or something else advantage to the squarish form-factor of which I'm unaware as a layperson. It's a different ballgame, then.



PPI_GUY said:


> To compete with JayElle, Al-pine and others, the top of the line should have been a full range Class D amplifier with zero noise, super efficency and a pricepoint alittle below the competition.





pat_smith1969 said:


> Actually I think you could do really well making a "graduated amp". I remember seeing an amp by DLS (or Elemental Designs, or someone) that did 50x2, 75x2 and 300x1. With everyone running active these days I can see an amp that steps up the power for a given purpose being really useful.


I think it's a neat idea on paper, but it's one that always seems to fail in the marketplace. It's worth noting that Jello pushed the concept hard (450/4, 500/5) but discontinued those amps and went with even power on their HD and XD amps. I think the future of "staggered power" amps is multichannel amps. For instance, the Jello XD600/6 has a near ideal power configuration for a front stage, at ~70x2 + 200x2 with 4 channels bridged to two.

Admittedly, back in the day I would've been happy to buy a Jello 450/4 (75x2, 150x2) instead of a 300/4 (75x4), but the 450/4 was 2" too long to fit where I wanted it.


----------



## JAX

DS-21 said:


> Be fair. Soundstream had a reputation for unreliability WAY before Epsilon bought them. That's actually the main reason I bought my A404.2 back in 1994 or 1995 instead of the equivalent Soundstream!




Ha ha ..I think he so has a point there....just cause yours works doesnt mean squat as there were countless others that went up in smoke..thus "smokestream" was born. 

and from your comment you havnt heard or used one of the new ones. ok. that is your opinion. fair enough


----------



## putergod

DS-21 said:


> Be fair. Soundstream had a reputation for unreliability WAY before Epsilon bought them. That's actually the main reason I bought my A404.2 back in 1994 or 1995 instead of the equivalent Soundstream!
> 
> I would expect they're better now.


Are you on crack? Soundstream was the BEST money could buy from the late 80's through mid 90's. There was a reason the other "best" (US Amps) amp was always trying to compete against them! They were the ONLY two that were so damn brutally tough that you could quite literally weld/cut with them without burning them up.


> Ha ha ..I think he so has a point there....just cause yours works doesnt mean squat as there were countless others that went up in smoke..thus "smokestream" was born.


If you believe lies... I've NEVER heard "smokestream" until your post. Which, consequently, came AFTER Epsilon bought them (since that happened about a decade ago, and your post just happened a few minutes ago).


> and from your comment you havnt heard or used one of the new ones. ok. that is your opinion. fair enough


I HAVE used, and STILL OWN (want some pics?) an EPSILON MADE SoundStream that didn't even last 6 months! POS! Only a complete fool that knows NOTHING about electronics can look inside BOTH of my soundstream amps and not see a VASTLY superior product inside the 10.0.


> That's just silly. By your standard, the Jello HD series and XD series (both made in the PRC) are "fails."


Yup. JL amps are all fail. I have a couple. My stinky Saab can atest to the fail.


----------



## Delsole

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



89grand said:


> Honestly, the whole idea is rather weak in my opinion. Art series amps, are Art series amps, that's it. It's better they died gracefully than be returned as mass market Epsilon amps. I've been against "new" Art series amps since I first heard about this many many months ago.
> 
> I bought my first Art series PPI A200 way back in 1993, and no other amp will be one no matter how much it looks like one.



To a certain extent i agree with this 100 percent.

Now back when things were big in the early 90's even driving a car was the last thing on my mind. But as i got older and eventually got into car audio i came across my very first art series amp. At the time it seemed to be pricey but everyone was telling me it was a great amp. So that day i went home and did some research. I came to the conclusion that few even had good things to say about these particular amps but what most had to say were above good in so many ways. After an hour of research i was sold, so i went back and bought my first a600. Since then i have owned a number of older amps and a number of newer amps. I also own more Art series amps then i can even use for the simple fact that i love them so much i cant bring myself to sell them. Throughout all of the amps i have heard or owned i cant remember one that sounded as good as the arts.With that said i am still yet to find another amp that i feel as deeply about. This being the reason i would like to see the arts gone for good rather then a cheap mass marketed piece of garbage to ruin the name.

I'm still young and would like to consider myself the new generation. In my eyes its hard to compare the art amps to the power class amps. The thing is me being the newer generation, never even took a second look at the power class amps. Now I'm not saying the power class where not good amps. But what i am saying is they were not the art amps. When you ask about the power class you hear ya there good amps but when you ask about the art amps you hear ya there the best amps. Not good the best.

With all that said, regardless what this new line is called it will be considered the new art amps. This is because of what it says on the precision power website right now and also because of the art speaker lines. I think the art line stood out a lot more then the pc line. So why not lower the quality of the pc amps and make the art series top of the line like they used to be. I think if this new line is not ppi's best then it wont really take off. I wouldn't care if there was no built in crossovers or fancy features as long as it is a great solid amp that matches or surpasses the quality of the old art amps. I think all this line needs to take off is a good solid quality product.


----------



## putergod

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Delsole said:


> So why not lower the quality of the pc amps and make the art series top of the line like they used to be.


Did you REALLY say this?? LOWER the quality?? The quality is already pretty crappy across the board! And you want them to LOWER it?
How bout they RAISE the quality of the "new art line" so that it's better, and not crappy, with a crappier "other line".


----------



## wdemetrius1

I could'nt agree more. I did'nt look at any other amp after the art series. That was the same time when Xtant arrived.


----------



## wdemetrius1

Please keep the tread on topic. Enough of all the back and forth shots, please!


----------



## subwoofery

Was wondering... 

If Grizz managed to bring back the Art series with quality that surpasses that of the old Art 
- with more modern technology like (as discussed before) digital pots and display for Xover and gain and such 
- no noise floor like the original 
- but still made in Asia... 

Would prices drop like a rock on the old Art or would they still hold due to nostalgia? 
I have no doubt that the old PPI amps are great amps... It's just that I can't see myself buy a 15y old amp that doesn't have good efficiency, that might fail due to age, and all that for $500 or more...

Kelvin


----------



## WLDock

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> The fact is that we need an amplifier series that is black and copper. If I had my my way, I would make this new series and couple it with the Art SQ subs and PC components, creating a new series that encompasses all of the black and copper products that I have put so much time and energy into. Moreover, I love these products the most!
> So, that is my dilemma...


Myself, I just absolutely love the copper and black theme! Now you have my ear....Hell, I am already looking at the 3-ways..they look pretty cool.

I guess that is why my dream watches are black and red/rose gold....I just love the red/copper metal against black look!

CORUM Admiral's Cup Challenge 44 Regatta









HAMILTON Khaki X-Copter










Why not make some amps to match? Somthing modern, clean, and classy in back with copper accents. I love these designs:





























































Keep the lines clean like these.


----------



## envisionelec

I just got an email about this thread so I hope I can positively contribute. I've always wanted to start a car amplifier company, mostly because I have a reasonable amount of design and repair experience with them and see a trend of copycat import amps that just perpetuate terrible engineering. 

I have a pretty big network of industry contacts, which helps - but doesn't guarantee anything. I'd like to grow that possibility. 

Now, for my windbag response -including o) my opinions. Thanks for reading. 

The ART series amps were quite revolutionary for their time. Most people don't know the insides of amplifiers, but there are some key features of the ART amps that I will attempt to recall. It's been about 10 years since I've opened one up, so please bear with me. I'm not affiliated with any car audio company - these are my observations and experiences.

Transformer Gate Drive circuitry. It's not new, but PPI used it* It enables a MosFet to be driven by an isolated, hysteretic device that requires no external power and provides benefits that cannot be obtained for a low cost. Higher gate drive voltage. High resistance to parasitics and isolation from the PWM drive circuitry. 

_*EDIT* - Now that I look at the ART amps on ampguts, I don't see the gate-drive transformer. I know it was in their AM series. Hmm. Probably a cost-cutting measure to include the busbars, but still a worthwhile addition._

2N6488/6490 transistors and their variants. Considered "slow" by some, but a really good SOA and high current GBW for their low cost. Although high-current outputs are nothing without a solidly regulated driver stage driving them, the low beta-droop is a good thing and reduces the load on the VA stage. The downside is getting high current traces to them. There's not much space in there. 

SMD Hybrid Ceramic/Aluminum daughter cards. This kind of thing was big in the 80's and was/is expensive to manufacture. The benefit of thermal tracking between the input transistors (diff pair) is a factor in reducing DC offset over time. You might have seen two transistors glued face to face or matched pairs in a case - it's the same idea. They've got the VA devices on there, as well, which makes the whole thing sort of "preheat" to equilibrium rather quickly. Small amounts of offset generally doesn't affect fidelity, but may cause an amplifier to clip asymmetrically when driven hard, all things equal.

Real "car amplifier" current mirrors are important. I mean, the ones with a stable voltage reference. Home audio stuff generally doesn't need a lot of tempco. But car amps benefit from it. Remember the old PG amps with LEDs on board? Those are used as thermally compensating references in the current mirrors of the diff input pairs. When ambient temperatures rise, the voltage drop across them also rises and counteracts the mirror's -2mV/°C falling E-B potential. You _can_ use a string of diodes, but an LED is a remarkably compact and stable compensation device.

A starved-current front end sounds like s*** _and_ can't accurately track the output. Its life work is to compare the difference between the input signal and deliver an error output equal in magnitude to the output devices. You go and mess with the linearity through careless engineering and you've got a big problem - the amp will never sound good. In a cool lab where the thing is measured, it looks _great_ on paper. In a car...it could be terrible - even audible under severe circumstances. But, this stuff happens in cars.

Regulated PWM design. It's a toss up. A stiffly regulated supply can tax a vehicle electrical system like _you wouldn't believe._ It can also saturate a low quality toroid core (you know...like the Chinese ones..) and crater the switching FETs. You can easily find fully-regulated designs by looking for the common-mode inductor. I prefer the mildly regulated designs. A battery is a pretty good, low impedance supply - making the amp compensate for crap wiring is a difficult decision to make for any company. You want the amp to perform well, but not blow up. Protection circuity rarely includes overcurrent monitoring or pulse-by-pulse limiting to keep the music flowing. Maybe that is something you should include? 

If I was still installing, I'd be begging for a limiter in amps. Maybe a generic LDR engaging on an integrating VI detector would keep it transparent yet effective against blowing woofers and damaging the amp. Again, the downside is that the user keeps the volume turned to 11 and the amp is crashing off the limiter most of the time.  You can't fix stupid.

Building amps that work well and sound good for a mobile environment is tough work. There are so many considerations. I commend the effort of trying to bend the ear of the DIY community for specific requests. Although I wouldn't want to buy an ugly amp, I also would not buy a poor-performing amplifier.

I hope I haven't offended anyone in my statements. These are just some comments based on "what was vs. what could be." Your feedback is appreciated. 

Thanks,
Aaron


----------



## JAX

putergod said:


> Are you on crack? Soundstream was the BEST money could buy from the late 80's through mid 90's. There was a reason the other "best" (US Amps) amp was always trying to compete against them! They were the ONLY two that were so damn brutally tough that you could quite literally weld/cut with them without burning them up.
> 
> If you believe lies... I've NEVER heard "smokestream" until your post. Which, consequently, came AFTER Epsilon bought them (since that happened about a decade ago, and your post just happened a few minutes ago).
> 
> I HAVE used, and STILL OWN (want some pics?) an EPSILON MADE SoundStream that didn't even last 6 months! POS! Only a complete fool that knows NOTHING about electronics can look inside BOTH of my soundstream amps and not see a VASTLY superior product inside the 10.0.
> 
> Yup. JL amps are all fail. I have a couple. My stinky Saab can atest to the fail.



First of all...your new here and nobody wants to start off on the wrong foot. We get that you love your old SS. I never said it wasnt good. I owned the 10.0 and the 5.0 and all the others up till the Van gogh...so I am a fan.

but your a little mis informed if you arent aware of the serious power supply issues with the Reference line..Not ALL but some of the models..namely the ones after the original but still the REF series...there were lots of failures...if yours still works now then you are good to go 

my point is your stretching it a tad when trying to use the old REFERENCE as your standard for dependability. 

PPI on the other hand didnt have these issues and I dont think even the ART originals had the same kinds of problems that the refs had. 

your not the only SS person on here and someone else will back up what i am saying..

as for the difference in boards and internals..? while the old SS looks bad ass especially a 10.0 that doesnt mean there havnt been improvments over the last umpteen years that make building them like that unecessary.

I will be the first to say I would love it if manufactures over built the mess out of the amps like they used to but they dont. But that doesnt mean they are all junk.

that is my opinion and I am willing to see what the future brings for SS 

Lots of us like old school but there are good things out there new


----------



## envisionelec

putergod said:


> Are you on crack? Soundstream was the BEST money could buy from the late 80's through mid 90's. There was a reason the other "best" (US Amps) amp was always trying to compete against them! They were the ONLY two that were so damn brutally tough that you could quite literally weld/cut with them without burning them up.


What is your yardstick for *best*? Phoenix Gold MPS series was far better built than the SS. 

"Best" stability is in the power supply design (my specialty). US Amps used a self-oscillating design with frequency degeneration to put the power supply out of regulation when the outputs were heavily loaded. You could weld with a US Amps because the rails would drop to +/-10V. Whoopee.



> Yup. JL amps are all fail. I have a couple. My stinky Saab can atest to the fail.


Pure conjecture. How can they all be "FAIL" if your two blew up? Maybe there is a systemic problem with them. Did you research their failures and conclude that it was a bad design that caused their failure?


----------



## Delsole

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



putergod said:


> Did you REALLY say this?? LOWER the quality?? The quality is already pretty crappy across the board! And you want them to LOWER it?
> How bout they RAISE the quality of the "new art line" so that it's better, and not crappy, with a crappier "other line".


Either way my point is that Arts should be at the top of ppi's line up with equal or better performance. I just see it being a slap in the face if there is another line replacing the arts with no where near the performance of even the power class. If theirs to be a slim model, stack able, or something similar to jl's xd or hd models i think a different line from ppi should be sacrificed but not this one. I believe that to me and many others this particular line is very special.


----------



## starboy869

I just found out about this discussion. 

CHY. +omg+ 

I just fell off my chair like coffee_junkie. I'll be posting up my ideas and thoughts later tonight.


----------



## starboy869

Idea right now. 

Custom graphics colour schemes and gold plating an option. Like the old arts. 
Board design like the alpine f#1 amp / sony 2000 xr
Limited run with a correct serial #. Something like pg reactor

I think the new art amp shouldn't just another amp. It should be thee amp. Something where people see it and say 'holly ****' with theirs mouths on the ground drooling.


----------



## PPI-ART

Here is a post from a former PPI employee before all the buyouts(original) he was talking to a DEI owned PPI employee about the inferior quality that was introduced after the buyout and he has some pretty good knowledge and suggestions. Keep in mind this is in reference to the DEI products. 



> John Andreen
> 
> I guess I didn't answer the root question. How has the product changed for
> the better or the worse.
> 
> For one thing, you would never find any TL07x operational amplifiers in any
> ART series or Powerclass amplifier designs or their signal processors. They
> have a very high noise floor and their use often times makes an amplifiers
> output sound like "music being pushed through sand". The original designs
> preferred National SC LM series of OPAMPs. Better yet, Burr-Brown were
> sometimes seen in certain designs. Capacitors in or around the signal
> paths were always Poly Film, Mylar or Silver Mica. No crappy ceramics or
> high drift mono's were used. I am speaking of the PPI lineage prior to
> being produced offshore. PPI designs also had a penchent for using high
> grade output devices such as those from ROHM and SANKEN. These were indeed
> audio grade output devices. If DEI's PPI amplifiers are at least using ON
> SEMI's MJx21193/21194 than I will concede this point. They really are
> great devices.
> 
> Too much is also placed on THD+N performance of an audio amplifier,
> including DEI. IMHO, offshore turnkey builders often try to better this
> specification instead of focusing on IMD. Poor IMD numbers can have a
> large, deleterious effect on an amplifiers sound quality. When I measured
> a few of the PCX amplifiers in 2001, several of these amplifiers had an IMD
> about 4 times that of the PC line. Pretty much like that of an ORION G4
> series amplifier. I do not know if this has been corrected in the "new"
> PPI PCX amplifiers, but I do know that this was not a criterion on your
> "DESIGN DOCUMENT" list. To all in this group, it (THD+N) should never be a
> "figure of merit" when choosing an amplifier. In fact, some of the best
> sounding amplifiers in the world have relatively high THD+N. Negative
> feedback and THD+N are antagonists. Lowering one increases the other. And
> it is always better to minimize negative feedback. Makes an amplifier
> sound "alive" or more "natural". JD, talk to your sages on this one.
> 
> This one wasn't DEI's call originally, but too much internal signal
> processing can often lead to loss of channel seperation and degredation of
> S/N. Amplifiers should amplify. Signal processors should signal process.
> Being all things to all men is not a good thing. I recall an old addage,
> "Jack of all trades, Master of none". If you want to win the hearts and
> minds of all those who believe in "the old school PPI", then I suggest you
> return to basics.
> 
> Do you guys even know just how important the PPI "hybrid" board was to
> creating the "PPI sound". Is it still there? What about the "nuance" cap?.
> Are there still two muting stages prior to the output stage input?
> 
> I will leave you with a final perspective. It all truly boils down to the
> synergy that the Design teams had at the original PPI. No single person
> was any more or any less than another. All ideas and opinions counted.
> The original PPI was neither a Marketing driven company, nor was it an
> Engineering driven company. It was simply an Idea driven company. People
> wanted to work for this company and it ideals. They would even take big
> pay cuts just to be part of the magic. It was this "joy de vivre", this
> spark, this essence, this "je ne sais quoi", that made that company and its
> products great. PPI is now just another name in a long list of names under
> the umbrella of DEI. It is now in effect lost like tears in rain.
> 
> PPI was once great, perhaps it can be again.
> 
> John Andreen


----------



## bkjay

Thanks for posting that, good read.


----------



## envisionelec

PPI-ART said:


> Here is a post from a former PPI employee before all the buyouts(original) he was talking to a DEI owned PPI employee about the inferior quality that was introduced after the buyout and he has some pretty good knowledge and suggestions. Keep in mind this is in reference to the DEI products.


That letter could NOT have taken the words out of my mind any more succinctly. I didn't have time to address the whole preamp and IMD thing. I actually deleted my remarks for clarity. The LM837 (quad of the 833) is a bipolar op amp capable of driving some nice low impedance loads which can equate to lower shot and Johnson noise because you can use lower value feedback resistors.
The only big issue with them is their propensity to reverse output phase when overloaded. Fixes like clamps add cost so manufacturers went to the TL072's. Newer products from National are better yet. 
IMD. Twin tone measurements. You never see this any more. It's a big part of amplifier "sound" that goes unnoticed. I'd love to see some of these numbers on these Korean and Chinese amps.  I'd also love to go into detail about how to minimize IMD numbers, but I have a life, too. Maybe next week.


----------



## WLDock

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



putergod said:


> Chinese made amps are garbage, period. Even JL. I bought a 500/1, because everyone said they were so great. That POS blew up on a 2 ohm load, and was NEVER over driven. It stunk my car up for over a week. That will be, without a doubt, the LAST Chinese built POS amp I will EVER buy!





putergod said:


> Yup. JL amps are all fail. I have a couple. My stinky Saab can atest to the fail.


Seems like you had a bad experience...too bad. However, the Slash amps have been out for awhile and FAIL is just not the rep that they have. Reliable and trouble free is the majority of what I have ever heard or read about them...and that is from forums, word of month, and managment at the largest car audio chain in my area. I even installed the 5 ch in a less than ideal install stuffed in the floor compartment of an SUV with no external fan or cooling. That amp never had noise or went into thermal shutdown and is still used today in what is its fourth install.

As great as the old USA made SS, PPI, and PG amps were they all generally had good reps but there were some issues....so hand made is not the be all and end to all.

In todays manufacturing environment you just can't make a through-hole amp, without digital control, gold plated and pretty PCB's, etc in the States and sell it for under $1000. Double sided, SMT, digitally controlled amps made in Asia are the norm. Generally speaking....automated production from a good plant will lower production cost and produce better quantity and quality. But you have to find good components. There are some that are in short supply and some are not that good in terms of quality....one has to deal with that as well.....just have to find a good supplier. That is the world we live in.

Made in the USA is still available......At about $2096 for something like a Zapco C2K4.0X 4 channel. How much is the car audio market willing to pay for an amp? Not much! As the "Big" names from yesterday and today did not and don't move enough high end amps to stay afloat....there many times has to be a lower line in the inventory.


----------



## putergod

JAX said:


> First of all...your new here and nobody wants to start off on the wrong foot.


Almost 2 1/2 years... not really sure I'd call that "new", but whatever. And I am certainly not "new" to the audio world.


> We get that you love your old SS. I never said it wasnt good. I owned the 10.0 and the 5.0 and all the others up till the Van gogh...so I am a fan.
> 
> but your a little mis informed if you arent aware of the serious power supply issues with the Reference line..Not ALL but some of the models..namely the ones after the original but still the REF series...there were lots of failures...if yours still works now then you are good to go
> 
> my point is your stretching it a tad when trying to use the old REFERENCE as your standard for dependability.


Pretend I'm from Missouri and "Show Me". I have my own personal proof mounted in the back of my Saab on JL's quality. The only way I could see what you claim is if the moron who mounted it didn't give it adequate air flow, and chose to run it in 1/2 ohm and lower loads. 
I just did some searching since I had never heard of such blasphamey, and the only common denominator I can find is morons not having an adequate electrical system to feed the power hungry monsters.

I have seen Soundstream and US Amps (back in the day) cut cans, weld cans, driven on a dead short for extended periods of time, and NEVER burn up. Those amps were rock solid and bullet proof. Not to mention the reference was world reknown for having the best SQ of any solid state car amplifier EVER.



> PPI on the other hand didnt have these issues and I dont think even the ART originals had the same kinds of problems that the refs had.


Nope, they had their own problems. I have a PPI A600 in my closet. It hasn't worked since 1996. Had a bad solder joint on the incoming ground, that once repaired, just caused somethings else to blow (due to the weakened state from having a bad ground).


> your not the only SS person on here and someone else will back up what i am saying..
> 
> as for the difference in boards and internals..? while the old SS looks bad ass especially a 10.0 that doesnt mean there havnt been improvments over the last umpteen years that make building them like that unecessary.
> 
> I will be the first to say I would love it if manufactures over built the mess out of the amps like they used to but they dont. But that doesnt mean they are all junk.


What makes them all junk is the fact that the Chinese fabs could care less about quality. Quantity is the only thing they care about. That's been proven across multiple industries. Plus, I would much rather have someone physically placing parts on a board, and who has a vested interest in doing it right (which the underpaid Chinese workers in a factory that puts together junk for 200 different companies does NOT have), who can use his eyes to make sure everything is soldered correctly, and can visually inspect each component before it is placed.


> that is my opinion and I am willing to see what the future brings for SS
> 
> Lots of us like old school but there are good things out there new


SS's future is that of Kole, SPL and all the other craptastic brands out there. They are "done" and relegated to massed produced elcheapo garbage that belongs at wal-mart or a pawn shop.

I will stick with only the high quality brands, and yes, there's still a few left. But that number dwindles seemingly daily.


WLDock - Handmade IS the Be All - End All of "many" industries, especially the consumer electronics (amplifiers, receivers, speakers, etc) industry. If, of course (to quote Ford) "Quality Is Job 1".

In closing, to all of you who actually LIKE to buy "cheap amps" (aka chinese built), and money, rather than quality, is your key motivator, then I apologize if I offended you. However, you get what you pay for.


----------



## rexroadj

putergod said:


> Almost 2 1/2 years... not really sure I'd call that "new", but whatever. And I am certainly not "new" to the audio world.
> your few posts make you new (thank your for limiting your dumb ass posts!
> Pretend I'm from Missouri and "Show Me". I have my own personal proof mounted in the back of my Saab on JL's quality. The only way I could see what you claim is if the moron who mounted it didn't give it adequate air flow, and chose to run it in 1/2 ohm and lower loads.
> I just did some searching since I had never heard of such blasphamey, and the only common denominator I can find is morons not having an adequate electrical system to feed the power hungry monsters.
> Here is another side everyone is thinking but people are taking the higher ground on.....I'll bite because your a jack ass! Maybe...Just maybe your the FAIL???? you have burnt up more amps then anyone I have every heard of. PERIOD! Lets figure out that common ground? Lets not forget this is on amps that have a prestigious quality/long lasting background. You cannot argue that other then you ****ed them up!
> 
> I have seen Soundstream and US Amps (back in the day) cut cans, weld cans, driven on a dead short for extended periods of time, and NEVER burn up. Those amps were rock solid and bullet proof. Not to mention the reference was world reknown for having the best SQ of any solid state car amplifier EVER.
> Last time I checked they were to reproduce a signal? Get a welder if thats what your going for...They do not go together, it means NOTHING!
> 
> Nope, they had their own problems. I have a PPI A600 in my closet. It hasn't worked since 1996. Had a bad solder joint on the incoming ground, that once repaired, just caused somethings else to blow (due to the weakened state from having a bad ground).
> Again refer to your track record of "burning" amps
> 
> What makes them all junk is the fact that the Chinese fabs could care less about quality. Quantity is the only thing they care about. That's been proven across multiple industries. Plus, I would much rather have someone physically placing parts on a board, and who has a vested interest in doing it right (which the underpaid Chinese workers in a factory that puts together junk for 200 different companies does NOT have), who can use his eyes to make sure everything is soldered correctly, and can visually inspect each component before it is placed. You can say what you want, along with many others, but at the end of the day you or many others would never pay the price to have it done here FACT!
> SS's future is that of Kole, SPL and all the other craptastic brands out there. They are "done" and relegated to massed produced elcheapo garbage that belongs at wal-mart or a pawn shop. Thats not even an opinion....Your an idiot... Having actually owned the newer reference amps.....they are leaps and bounds beyond the old ones (and dont get me wrong I LOVED the old ones) but get your head out of your ass. Times have changed and in most cases for the better. Get used to it!
> 
> I will stick with only the high quality brands, and yes, there's still a few left. But that number dwindles seemingly daily.
> Not really, you just need to open your eyes! (when there out of your ass of course)
> 
> WLDock - Handmade IS the Be All - End All of "many" industries, especially the consumer electronics (amplifiers, receivers, speakers, etc) industry. If, of course (to quote Ford) "Quality Is Job 1". LOL.....Human error is much higher the machine!
> 
> In closing, to all of you who actually LIKE to buy "cheap amps" (aka chinese built), and money, rather than quality, is your key motivator, then I apologize if I offended you. However, you get what you pay for.


 Well as many can attest to... (sold a lot of them here) I have owned some of the highest and most expensive amps on the planet (nothing bad to say about any of them) I went from McIntosh primarily from the mid 90's until about a year ago. I replaced them with the newer Ref. amps and they were absolutely amazing. Didnt miss the Mac. at all (and dont be twisted...your old school ref are the best ever is a joke for that time period compared to Mcintosh be it build, durability, etc.....) New Refs > old refs! You want made in USA? go to a farm stand! (dont get me wrong I would love to buy nothing but stuff that came from the red whit and blue and would pay more, but thats not how a company is going to stay alive!)

To add to all the people that STILL hanker over the art name.....Get over it! its not going to be used, its not the same and its just a frigging name. MOVE ON. People still are talking about this high end fix? That is not how company's make money. Its pretty friggin simple! There is such a tiny market for that it would be foolish for them to invest there time in money into it when no one wants to pay for it. The Soundstream Ref. amps are (new ones) as high quality an amp as I have ever had. (brax, helix, mcintosh, etc....) and even at there price (which I consider great) are not selling? the power class seem to be on par with that and they are a little less $ (slightly less power but.....) and they are not selling like anyone hoped (according to grizz previous post) Old school, handmade usa were great......back in the day and are still great now (if they are without issue) but that does not make anything now, less! Get with the program.

Sorry, I had to bite! This crap spewed from some of these people lately makes my stomach turn!
I am sure DS will make things much more clear then I, and I so look forward to it!


----------



## Notloudenuf

Best of luck on the design of the new PeePeeI line of amps (not a jab, I'm trying to keep the adlinks away)
I hope sooner or later I will have some positive input on the subject but in the mean time this thread reminds me of The Simpson's episode "Oh Brother Where Art Thou?"


----------



## DS-21

putergod said:


> Are you on crack? Soundstream was the BEST money could buy from the late 80's through mid 90's.


That may be your opinion, but people who were actually interested in car audio in the mid-1990s only knew SS as pretty (still like their shade of blue) but of compared to the other the "major" car amp makers of the time (Adcom, PPI, Soundstream, Rockford, Zapco, McIntosh, PG) unreliable. (US Amps and Linear Power didn't have much availability where I was growing up.) And that was well before Epsilon bought them.



putergod said:


> There was a reason the other "best" (US Amps) amp was always trying to compete against them! They were the ONLY two that were so damn brutally tough that you could quite literally weld/cut with them without burning them up.


Perhaps, but doubtful.



putergod said:


> If you believe lies... I've NEVER heard "smokestream" until your post.


Not our fault you weren't paying attention ~15 years ago.  



subwoofery said:


> Was wondering...
> 
> If Grizz managed to bring back the Art series with quality that surpasses that of the old Art
> - with more modern technology like (as discussed before) digital pots and display for Xover and gain and such
> - no noise floor like the original
> - but still made in Asia...
> 
> Would prices drop like a rock on the old Art or would they still hold due to nostalgia?


If anything, hold steady or go up a little bit due to the brand's renewed visibility. That's just my guess, though.


----------



## Thoraudio

He lost me at "music being pushed through sand" 

And yes, I'll back up DS, 'smoke'stream was a common term. They did have a rep of being unreliable. 

There's a million of the same amp out there in different heat sinks today, if not in actual design, then in functionality. You want a winner? Make something I can't pick up from a different name brand.


----------



## bkjay

Yea I remember hearing that but I also remember hearing they were sweet as amps. I have 4 rubicons honestly never had one problem.I may be wrong but from what I remember allot of the ref. were blowing up when played in the wrong mode ( high- power high-current) Also I think they had cap. problems.


----------



## envisionelec

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



PPI_GUY said:


> Thanks for that link. Might have to give them a call!


When I contacted them in 2003, they were $54 per lineal FOOT in single quantities.


----------



## envisionelec

DS-21 said:


> That may be your opinion, but people who were actually interested in car audio in the mid-1990s only knew SS as pretty (still like their shade of blue) but of compared to the other the "major" car amp makers of the time (Adcom, PPI, Soundstream, Rockford, Zapco, McIntosh, PG) unreliable. (US Amps and Linear Power didn't have much availability where I was growing up.) And that was well before Epsilon bought them.


Same experience, here. SS lacked heatsink area and had a real problem with saturating magnetics. Many had that 3-Amp slide switch that corroded and flamed out shortly in low-impedance mode. Later models used a current sensing system that switched automatically and latched when it detected a low-Z load. I didn't follow their products after 1998 and never opened up their big Tarantula and Human Reign amps...


----------



## PPI_GUY

If reason could be thrown to the wind, how cool would a new series of tube amps be?
Many of us guitar players would be plenty excited about that!!!
I know, they wouldn't sell.


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

PPI_GUY said:


> If reason could be thrown to the wind, how cool would a new series of tube amps be?
> Many of us guitar players would be plenty excited about that!!!
> I know, they wouldn't sell.


Talk to Bruce Macmillan about tube amps. It's his passion.
xxoo chy


----------



## putergod

_



Almost 2 1/2 years... not really sure I'd call that "new", but whatever. And I am certainly not "new" to the audio world.

Click to expand...

_


> _your few posts make you new (thank your for limiting your dumb ass posts!_


_Nice…_


> _Pretend I'm from Missouri and "Show Me". I have my own personal proof mounted in the back of my Saab on JL's quality. The only way I could see what you claim is if the moron who mounted it didn't give it adequate air flow, and chose to run it in 1/2 ohm and lower loads. _
> _I just did some searching since I had never heard of such blasphamey, and the only common denominator I can find is morons not having an adequate electrical system to feed the power hungry monsters._
> _Here is another side everyone is thinking but people are taking the higher ground on.....I'll bite because your a jack ass! Maybe...Just maybe your the FAIL???? you have burnt up more amps then anyone I have every heard of. PERIOD! Lets figure out that common ground? Lets not forget this is on amps that have a prestigious quality/long lasting background. You cannot argue that other then you ****ed them up!_


_Let’s see… I’m 36 years old, had my first car and crappy system when I was 15. Counting the POS I had at 15, due to McDonald’s pay not being great, I have owned a grand total of 12 (car audio) amps. Only 3 died on my watch._

_In the order I acquired them:_

_1st *POS Audiovox* “Booster” (was on a pair of 6x9’s in my 1968 Chevy CE-10) – Stay in the truck when I sold it a few months later._

_2nd *Carver M4120* – ran a pair of CV XL15’s, then Polk 4x6 and 6x9’s, then Boston 6.5’s and 6x9’s. Bought new around 1990, never failed to give satisfaction. Sold to a friend of mine around 2003 because he needed an amp, and I wanted a new SS to go with the 10.0._

_3rd *PPI A600* – ran the same CV’s above, moving the Carver to other duties. Bought new around 1992. Did great until around mid-1996. Been in my closet ever since._

_4th *Soundstream Class A10.0* – Ran the CV’s above then moved to a pair of SPL160’s, then a single Ecplise 10, then a pair of Eclipse 12’s. Bought new around 1995. Still have, still works and sounds just as beautiful as it did the day it was bought._

_5th *Zapco C2k 2.0* (or a 2.5, don't remember) – Bought new in 2003. Returned due to unit not being the unit I was purchasing (guess I shoulda paid more attention in the store - that’s what I get for expecting the owner to know wth he was doing). I was “purchasing” a C2k 4.0. When I realized the unit I had was a 2.0 and took it back, they had no 4.0’s in stock, so got refunded._

_6th *Soundstream EGA4120* – Ran Boston 6.5’s and 6x9’s. Bought new in 2003. Blew a large resistor off the board 6 months later due to VERY shoddy craftsmanship._

_7th *US Amps USA-4300x* – Running same Bostons above (still). Bought new in 2003 due to craptastic Epsilon product quality._

_8th* Soundstream Reference 500* – never used. Acquired used in 2004 off a bet, and gave to a needy friend._

_9th *US Amps USA1000x* – Running pair of Eclipse 12’s. Bought used on ebay in 2007. Placed in service while removing 10.0 from service because I wanted matching amps for car shows, and the continuum is rare, and pricey._

_10th *US Amps AX-TU4360* – Bought new in 2008. Never used. Been planning on getting a matching AX-1000 or higher, but need a silver one with the first AX heat sink to be a match. Then I will pull the USA series amps out, and put the AX series in (mainly because I want the tube hybrid on my bostons)._

_11th *JL Audio 300/4* – Running some boston coaxials. Bought used, locally, in 2010. Currently, still working. Not holding my breath._

_12th *JL Audio 500/1* – ran a single Eclipse 10. Bought used, locally, in 2010. Catastrophic, stink up the car, failure. Not yet replaced, as I need to do some measurements and decision making. Will not buy another JL, and want to keep matching amps for that car (for my own satisfaction – not a show car)._

_Of all of those, excluding number 1, only 3 were not “Handcrafted in the USA” (not sure on the Carver, but I do know for a fact that it wasn’t made in China). Of those 3, 66.6% of the, i.e. 3, have died, and the remaining 33.3% probably will – in due time. Of the rest, only 12.5%, i.e. 1, died (and it was the lowest quality of the other brands – yes, I am saying PPI was lower quality than Carver, Soundstream, and US Amps – anyone who knew car audio knows this). All the others, that I still have (can’t speak on what I don’t own anymore) still work perfectly. So, given the above information, I would say that no. Your assumption is vastly incorrect. Especially since most of the amps I have had have lasted over a decade, or much longer, without ever having an issue; being moved from car to car, etc. The 10.0 lived in 6 cars. The two US Amps in use have been in 2 cars so far. The Carver was in 3 cars when I sold it._



> _I have seen Soundstream and US Amps (back in the day) cut cans, weld cans, driven on a dead short for extended periods of time, and NEVER burn up. Those amps were rock solid and bullet proof. Not to mention the reference was world reknown for having the best SQ of any solid state car amplifier EVER._
> _Last time I checked they were to reproduce a signal? Get a welder if thats what your going for...They do not go together, it means NOTHING!_


_It most definitely means something… It proves the unit is over engineered and built like a tank! That might not be important to you, but it sure is to me._


> _Nope, they had their own problems. I have a PPI A600 in my closet. It hasn't worked since 1996. Had a bad solder joint on the incoming ground, that once repaired, just caused somethings else to blow (due to the weakened state from having a bad ground)._
> _Again refer to your track record of "burning" amps_


_Lame_


> _What makes them all junk is the fact that the Chinese fabs could care less about quality. Quantity is the only thing they care about. That's been proven across multiple industries. Plus, I would much rather have someone physically placing parts on a board, and who has a vested interest in doing it right (which the underpaid Chinese workers in a factory that puts together junk for 200 different companies does NOT have), who can use his eyes to make sure everything is soldered correctly, and can visually inspect each component before it is placed. __You can say what you want, along with many others, but at the end of the day you or many others would never pay the price to have it done here FACT!_


_I certainly would, and HAVE. Check it… Soundstream 10.0 bought NEW. USA Amps 4300x bought NEW, PPI A600 bought NEW. Zapco C2k bought NEW (returned due to mixup, not due to my unwillingness to pay for it). Carver M4120 bought NEW, US Amps AX-TU4360 bought NEW. NONE of these were “cheap” by ANY stretch of the imagination! The CHEAPEST amp I bought NEW was the Epsilon made Soundstream. It also didn’t last 6 months. You get what you pay for._


> _SS's future is that of Kole, SPL and all the other craptastic brands out there. They are "done" and relegated to massed produced elcheapo garbage that belongs at wal-mart or a pawn shop. __Thats not even an opinion....Your an idiot... Having actually owned the newer reference amps.....they are leaps and bounds beyond the old ones (and dont get me wrong I LOVED the old ones) but get your head out of your ass. Times have changed and in most cases for the better. Get used to it!_


_I’m an idiot because I have a brain and know the quality of the product? I have one. I will take pics sometime this week. Just for you. They are NO WHERE NEAR the quality of the old ones. Sure, some new technology has came along, but when you slap it together in a sweatshop, you get crap. Plus, lots of the new amp technology sounds like butt crack compared to the old school Class A and A/B designs._


> _I will stick with only the high quality brands, and yes, there's still a few left. But that number dwindles seemingly daily._
> _Not really, you just need to open your eyes! (when there out of your ass of course)_


_Lame_


> _WLDock - Handmade IS the Be All - End All of "many" industries, especially the consumer electronics (amplifiers, receivers, speakers, etc) industry. If, of course (to quote Ford) "Quality Is Job 1". __LOL.....Human error is much higher the machine!_


_You believe that? Wow. No wonder you’re stuck up craptastic’s ass. Do you honestly think a machine gives a rats ass if something got placed correctly, or if a component it places meets or exceeds spec? Nope it doesn’t. An Engineer of the previous Soundstream, US Amps, etc, facility that is assembling his beauty does._

_Oh, and Linear Power is “supposed” to be coming back soon… according to Ray at TIPS._


----------



## crux131

Out of curiosity, the Eclipse sub you were running wasn't an LMT coil was it? Fourthmeal on here had one that killed at least 2 amps when it dropped below the rated impedence at a certain frequency...if I remember correctly. I think there was something odd/different about the coil on the woofer, but that thread was long ago.
Something similar could have effected your 500/1???

Just some random thoughts.

Found fourthmeal theory that it was actually something in the way a certain song was mixed/recorded that was killing the amps??


----------



## Luke352

putergod said:


> _You believe that? Wow. No wonder you’re stuck up craptastic’s ass. Do you honestly think a machine gives a rats ass if something got placed correctly, or if a component it places meets or exceeds spec? Nope it doesn’t. An Engineer of the previous Soundstream, US Amps, etc, facility that is assembling his beauty does._
> 
> _Oh, and Linear Power is “supposed” to be coming back soon… according to Ray at TIPS._


Actually a SMD placing and soldering machine is far more accurate then any human and also does full checks on the parts it is about to fit to insure it meets or exceeds all specs and it does this in literally seconds probably less. It also acheives a much more reliable solder joint which will be of higher quality then one a human could acheive in most cases. I can guarantee there are very few companies that do this today or even many back in the day that tested all the parts prior to assembly on the board. In fact I would tend to think once the board was populated if it didn't pass a test they would have just binned a whole board as this would probably be cheaper then individually testing each component prior to fitting to the board.


----------



## daudioman

Before I begin my rant I must say *much respect* to CHY!!! I did not fall out of my chair but I stared at the screen for a LLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNGGGGGG time not believing it ;-) AMAZING!!!

As a student of Art/Architecture I could only dream of owning your creations back when they were first released. Now nearly twenty years later I have been fortunate to own some of your creations in my collection and treat them like the works of art they are (most brand new in the box!)...I only wish he industry could return to the way things were and use you remarkable talents and vision properly.

Welcome to DIYMA!! And I personally hope your influence in this and future threads can usher a change in the future of our hobby/passion. 




I have watched this thread disintegrate into an argument about a users amplifier failures instead of a future amplifier design discussion. So not to add fuel to the fire I would say that it might be interesting if there are any manufacturing engineers (IE's, EE's, etc...) out there to validate or refute my observations of that side argument. Reason being I am 1 semester removed from graduation (Electrical Engineering) so I'm somewhat green academically but I have 15 years in the consumer electronics world (both car audio and computers). From what I have witnessed in my Current company, A top ten DoD contractor in the world that manufactures Military equipment, and my manufacturing classes as well, generally speaking machines not only assemble products more accurately to tighter tolerances (once set up correctly) but they are cheaper to use doing the job (over its life cycle of course).

Now dont get me wrong its great marketing to say that its hand assembled for the best quality... blah blah blah.... But the same...no actually *better *build quality can be achieved by a top notch company using Quality Control and with the proper Operator Training and Control Testing. Again I'm not a production engineer but to use the Ford example/analogy used previously in this thread about their build quality that's why they use machines or robotics now for assembly. Can you imagine if they still made cars the way that Henry Ford did or made them like they did 50, 30 or even 20 years ago!?!??!? 

Bottom Line: Corporations are amoral; they care only about their shareholders and that's it (and that's what they are supposed to do of course.) If they are privately owned then the owner calls the shots. But either way if its wigits, or car amplifiers they are in business to make a profit they just happen to be selling something we want to buy ;-)

And for the record I think PPI should let the Arts die. Nostalgic design is the rage in various industries but a classic cant be replicated. Plus the New SS REF line proves that the market is dynamic and has obviously shifted. Members of this board are enthusiasts but they dont spend the money to keep companies in business, the users buy the entry level stuff is mass quantity keep the lights on. From the Epsilon's posts on here it seems they cant or dont want to put the money up to do the Arts right but that no disrespect to the company. they nee to make a buck...not make stuff so we all admire it but spend no money in the process. 

BUT, if they did do it I agree with Starboy869 that they should be limited series amps like RF attempted to do with the new Punch line that failed miserably but not make too many (diminishes value, they obviously got greedy IMHO!) Make like 100-250 of a particular model, have custom build options like DSP, finishes. maybe even include the owners name engraved on the heatsink or at least included in the documentation somehow...

Yes I know I dreaming because as they sometimes say you can never go home...


----------



## WLDock

putergod said:


> _You believe that? Wow. No wonder you’re stuck up craptastic’s ass. Do you honestly think a machine gives a rats ass if something got placed correctly, or if a component it places meets or exceeds spec? Nope it doesn’t. An Engineer of the previous Soundstream, US Amps, etc, facility that is assembling his beauty does_


_Your funny man! It is quite obvious that you are just spewing crap. Talk to anyone in the PCB industry and they will tell you different. Have you ever been in a electronic PCB production facility? Well, I have....I used to be a UL Field Inspector, have worked with several electronic techs with backgrounds in Mils Spec PCB production as well as repair. Also, I just got back on Friday from a two week training trip in Austria for my job. I have a chance to visit our production facility where we build our products as well as all the PCB's for our Solar Inverters. The majority of the assembly is automated and it is done that way for a reason!

You are just not in touch to with modern production of massed produced PCB's. So are you running a hand made deck, and proccessor as well? Get real man!_


----------



## jp88

putergod said:


> _
> 
> 11th *JL Audio 300/4* – Running some boston coaxials. Bought used, locally, in 2010. Currently, still working. Not holding my breath.
> 
> 12th *JL Audio 500/1* – ran a single Eclipse 10. Bought used, locally, in 2010. Catastrophic, stink up the car, failure. Not yet replaced, as I need to do some measurements and decision making. Will not buy another JL, and want to keep matching amps for that car (for my own satisfaction – not a show car).
> 
> _


_

Apparently you arent familiar with the concept of sample size. Your illustration is an example of a very small sample size,seeing as you have refferenced two amplifiers out of thousands produced. 

Furthermore you stated you bought these amplifiers used, and with ALL consumer electronics there is a failure rate, that usually increases over time.


For the record I have a 300/4 I purchased new in ~2001(Id have to remove it from my truck to find the production date as I cant remember exactly when I bought it, although it was shortly after they were introduced)It has been installed in 4 different vehicles, and is still running strong._


----------



## putergod

WLDock said:


> Your funny man! It is quite obvious that you are just spewing crap. Talk to anyone in the PCB industry and they will tell you different. Have you ever been in a electronic PCB production facility? Well, I have....I used to be a UL Field Inspector, have worked with several electronic techs with backgrounds in Mils Spec PCB production as well as repair. Also, I just got back on Friday from a two week training trip in Austria for my job. I have a chance to visit our production facility where we build our products as well as all the PCB's for our Solar Inverters. The majority of the assembly is automated and it is done that way for a reason!
> 
> You are just not in touch to with modern production of massed produced PCB's. So are you running a hand made deck, and proccessor as well? Get real man!


Yea.. the reason is time and money.

And yea, I am running handmade processors. Never heard of Audio Control? But more importantly, I am running AMERICAN MADE processors, amplifiers, subwoofers, and speakers. All of which are almost entirely hand made, or are hand assembled (yes, I know there are tiny micro devices that are best installed my a highly expensive machine, under tight scrutiny - something you don't get in the sweatshops of china, but the bulk of the devices - capacitors, resistors, diodes, transformers, etc - can be placed by hand, and on the best products, they are). The only part of my system that isn't American made is the HU. ONLY because I've not been able to find an American made unit that does everything I want. When I do, you can bet your butt that I will be using it.

Question, is that facility in China?


----------



## putergod

WLDock said:


> Your funny man! It is quite obvious that you are just spewing crap. Talk to anyone in the PCB industry and they will tell you different. Have you ever been in a electronic PCB production facility?


I forgot to answer this question... Yes... when I worked for Peavey Electronics in the mid 90's, yes I was in more than one. And yes, they were HAND BUILT!


----------



## putergod

jp88 said:


> Apparently you arent familiar with the concept of sample size. Your illustration is an example of a very small sample size,seeing as you have refferenced two amplifiers out of thousands produced.
> 
> Furthermore you stated you bought these amplifiers used, and with ALL consumer electronics there is a failure rate, that usually increases over time.
> 
> 
> For the record I have a 300/4 I purchased new in ~2001(Id have to remove it from my truck to find the production date as I cant remember exactly when I bought it, although it was shortly after they were introduced)It has been installed in 4 different vehicles, and is still running strong.


No, my illustration was an example of personal experience. You have yours, I have mine.
I bough my *much* older USA-1000x used, off ebay no less, and it still runs my two 12's very well.

Again... personal experience, not statistics. Anyone attempting to use statistics in the forum is a moron because no one here has anything more than personal experience, and bullcrap they read on the interwebz, to go by. It's no different than any other "user review" anywhere.


----------



## jp88

putergod said:


> No, my illustration was an example of personal experience. You have yours, I have mine.
> I bough my *much* older USA-1000x used, off ebay no less, and it still runs my two 12's very well.
> 
> Again... personal experience, not statistics. Anyone attempting to use statistics in the forum is a moron because no one here has anything more than personal experience, and bullcrap they read on the interwebz, to go by. It's no different than any other "user review" anywhere.





putergod said:


> Yup. JL amps are* all *fail. I have a couple. My stinky Saab can atest to the fail.


but you said here they are ALL fail



putergod said:


> Even JL. I bought a 500/1, because everyone said they were so great. That POS blew up on a 2 ohm load, and was NEVER over driven. It stunk my car up for over a week. That will be, without a doubt, the LAST Chinese built POS amp I will EVER buy!



My point is that you are translating your personal experiences into definitive, which are disproved by statistics. I could easily say since the one soundstream amp I have owned(ref405 that I have repaired once) failed, or because the one mtx amp(500d that I have repaired twice) Ive owned failed, or that both of the nakamichi amps I have owned have failed. that all of them are junk. I could also claim that since the 2 coustic amps(korean made I believe) I owned did not fail, the aura sounds amp I have(chinese made) has not failed, that they are the epitome of reliablitly. but Id be wrong.


----------



## fertigaudio

After speaking with Grizz and having emails from his engineers sent to me. It is obvious they have this handled. 

Grizz,
How are the submission looking statistically. Good Better Best. How many people have submitted? What kind of names have you narrowed it down to. Would love to hear from you on how things are going on your end. 

Brandon.


----------



## WLDock

putergod said:


> Yea.. the reason is time and money.


OK, lets just drop that and stop messing up this thread. I have nothing against you because you like American Made...many of us do. Decks from japan, Speakers from Germany, and Amps from the USA was winning trend back in the heyday. But we both know that that day is over and we will never see modest price USA made products....only high end high priced products are available and modern day PPI, Soundstream, and PG will never revert back to that proccess.


----------



## envisionelec

I designed a heatsink extrusion with removable end-caps and pluggable high current busbar pass-throughs as well as interconnects for signal. The idea was to modularize the entire system for power and signal processing. The power supplies are separate and can be paralleled before plugging into the "mainframe" output section. Put the signal processing on the other end or separate for easier mounting using an "end-cap jumper" assembly. The power supplies among all pieces can be synchronized for minimized heterodyning - especially important for low CMRR Class D amps.

I'm not in the 12V industry, but have real world design experience. I guess you could say my life's work is dedicated to the pursuit of building (or consulting for) a car audio amplifier company. I used to build equalizers, limiters, noise gates and digitally switched "SQ/SPL" switching systems for competition cars. 
Then I started with car amplifiers. I built a 500W Class D "subwoofer only" in 1995 for my personal use after the Harris HIP4080A. I moved on to designing SMPS and fixing the problem ones in existing designs. Blah Blah Blah.  

Grizz, I don't like to stick my nose in where I'm not needed, but if you think you can use some of my abilities, please PM me. Thank you. 

Aaron


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*

Also, if you happen to recall off-hand, what's the efficiency of the STL4.500?
QUOTE]

Per the amp engineer...

The efficiency will be about 60% for 4-ch and 2-ch class-AB amps and 85% for class-D monoblocks. (4 ohms load per channel)
With lower load impedance, the efficiecny will drop too. At 2 ohm load, it will be about 55% for class-AB and 80% for class-D.

Decent but it sounds like you'd rather have fullrange D... I'm considering it.


----------



## PPI_GUY

As far as this thread goes, i would prefer an end to the back and forth arguments about brands that aren't called P-P-I. If you aren't a fan of Epsilon, then you might want to move on to another thread or better yet, start your own discussions. This one was started(continued) to give suggestions to Grizz Archer about a new series of amps that at one time would have been known as Art. To that end, I think it would be more productive if we stayed on topic and not allow the discussion to degenerate into a shouting "is! is not!" match.


----------



## AAAAAAA

envisionelec said:


> ...
> 
> Aaron


This guy has mentioned in the past about how he believes he can create a really small amplifier, smaller then what is available. Sounds interesting IMO.


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



putergod said:


> Epsilon has been doing this with all the great brands they have destroyed (SoundStream Reference for instance).
> 
> Any amp brand owned by Epsilon is nothing but chinese made garbage. They have destroyed so many great amps. RIP PPI.


Out of curiosity, I would like to know all of the "so many great amps" that we have destroyed. I respect your opinion fully, but would like to know of every amp that you feel this way about. You mentioned Soundstream Reference, but what are the rest.

Also, for my own learning, what did you like about the original Reference that the new Reference cannot do? Does the new Reference amps do too much, making it hard for you to tune? Is there an inproved specs that you do not understand that I can help you with?

Thanx

I respect everbody's opiniona dn try to learn from them, so please answer my questions if you wouldn't mind...

Thanx


----------



## Grizz Archer

> BTW: Anything made in China (*as far as amps go*) is *FAIL* from the start. Don't do it. Hook up with the Korean factories and get a decent board to start with, then make it your own, they will work with you if you have the $$$. If you don't no point in doing it at all.
> 
> Even though Chinese amps (most) do rated power and sound okay, they have the cheapest circuit boards on the planet inside and every possible corner that can be cut has been cut. Not something I would be proud to own, no matter how well it performs, it's still a piece of junk inside, and could go "poof" at any time. Super CRAPPY build quality.


Respectfully, I must disagree. True, the Korean factories can build some great boards. But that is a very small fraction of what is available. ALmost everything these days is made in China. Would you be surpised to see some cheesy swapmeet amplifier coome out of the same factory as an elite high end European amp? Yes, you would because you think that only Korea makes good boards. Not true. Do not blame China for unacceptable quality when it was obviously specified and approved by the manufacturer! Whether an amp is in the upper echelon or one of the crappiest amps made, we are to be held accountable, PERIOD. Korean do not have better machines, naturally higher IQs or any advantage as a constant. There are plenty of great China made amps that will outperform some Korean made amps.

I think you are really limiting yourself to only Korean amplifiers. Not that I have a problem with Korean amps. I don't. But is it my opinion that what you said is false by experience. Not just for my company but for other companies. This is not a biasy thing. You would crap yourself if you saw what I have seen in the China factories. What brands come from where. Makes you wonder - how does brand abc get away with charging $800 for this amp, when brand xyz only charges $600 and they are nearly identical?! Answer = marketing! Always.


----------



## Grizz Archer

onebadmonte said:


> Hey I want to play. Here is something I came up with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here you can see the fin action a little better.



Thanx. For consideration, please email to me. I am not goign to be able to come back and weed through 1000s of posts to try to find submissions while I am in a meeting about design. Send to [email protected]


----------



## ANT

Hey Grizz..
Check your PM box

ANT


----------



## Grizz Archer

NRA4ever said:


> I never had a PPI amp. I know they once had great quality just like the old Phoenix Gold ZX amps.I hear they were better than the PG amps. Both companies lost my support when they cut quality & used the name to sell crap. I have two 10 yr old ZX 475ti amps. They have been trouble free. The crossovers & other features in them are still state of art. I've run good sounding systems with just one of them. I drove a 3 way component front stage & a pair of 8 inch subs with plenty of power. It hit 130 playing the song Flashdance. The new PG amps can't touch the sound, quality & power of the ZX line. Sure my amp is huge but I'll make room for it. The new PPI or PG clones will never have the small company,built in the USA , quality name of the originals. The built in the USA sticker on my amps just looks great.


I hear ya. But let me get some feed back from you. Back in the day each of the brands you mentioned primarily only made really good stuff. When eBay, whores and price wars destroyed and ever-changed the industry, companies had to expand their lines to make something profitable. So my question is this... What was made in the good ol' days that is not up to par with modern technology. Obviously you cannot say, the old ones look better, or they were hand made or any crap like that which has nothing to do with quality. We know modern board are not as fun to look at. So what. You can choose one of our brand or somebody else's for a comparison. Take a modern amp that is thier high-end series and compare it to their formal series that you have a passion for. Tell mw what the originaly can do that the new one cannot. Again, let me be clear that I am using you for research and respect your opinion. 

You OS only guys, help me to understand why modenr technology is not good enough for you. That is one cool thing about this forum. Some guys hate new school and only want old school, American, Korean amps. Other guys are all for full range class D with modern technology. While some of us agree to disagree, I do not so much care about your opinion as much as WHY AND HOW you derived your opinion. Opinion are worthless in a sense if they do not have any meat behind them. So I want to know why!


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



pat_smith1969 said:


> Alternately you could do kinda like what Rockford did back in the day and make a series of amps that "linked" via a cosmetic plat of some sort. They had their punch series that if you purchased the correct plates you could make a series of amps look like one large amp. With todays technology you could build a proprietary cable that carried the signal from amp to amp giving you just one wire runnign between all the amps. For your amp line up you could do a series of 2 channel amps that hooked together allowing the customer to configure their own amp to whatever specs they needed.
> 
> As far as xovers, I really don't get why you would put them on an amp in the first place... It seems to me that if you don't have time alignment the xovers are a waste (or at best a mild convenience). To get TA you are going to have to bypass the on-amp xovers anyways and buy an off board processor. It seems to be a waste of money to have a nice xover on an amp that you can never use. I would MUCH rather see an amp be a smidge cheaper without this feature, and have that company sell two processors, one that is just a basic xover and a full fledge TA able processor.


I get asked about twice a year about making bridges to link amplifiers. The problem is that very, very few people want that much amplifier in their ride unless theya are all about SPL in which they do not care.

Why Xovers in amps? Simple, everybody is a *****!  I used to build systems with 2-4 small amps and build custom passive networks that took up the entire rear parcel tray of a car! Aloty of ud "old dudes" did. It was the onle way to get it done right, FOR THAT TIME. But nowadays, everybody is spoiled rotten - built-in xovers, phase adjustment, parametric eq, and a partridge in a pear tree! We not only got away from analog eqs and into digital one, but we have these freakin produst that self-tune a system! Seriously, it is insane! People do not want several amps, because then you have the added expense of external xovers, distribution blocks, buttloads of RCAs, etc...


----------



## Grizz Archer

paulc35 said:


> Reproduce the amps of the 90s and give the outside case a nicer design.
> Simple. I mean reproduce the amp on the inside of the 90s


Not going to happen. If the price goes up from $1 a watt to $4+ a watt, the amps fluctuate due to inaccuracys in parts, some become less reliable and so forth, would you buy one? I wouldn't! I would love to build amps that are as visually appealing as an old school Art, PG MS or comparable amp on the inside, but it just is not going to be bought, so it is not going to happen. I wish buddy, I wish. I'm sure most of us manufacturers would love to make things in-house again, add new jobs, stop sending money to China and bring money into our own economy, and do a little part to fix our country. But our country only wants superior performance at eBay prices. Us consumers got exactly waht we asked for, lower cost products...


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> I get asked about twice a year about making bridges to link amplifiers. The problem is that very, very few people want that much amplifier in their ride unless theya are all about SPL in which they do not care.
> 
> Why Xovers in amps? Simple, everybody is a *****!  I used to build systems with 2-4 small amps and build custom passive networks that took up the entire rear parcel tray of a car! Aloty of ud "old dudes" did. It was the onle way to get it done right, FOR THAT TIME. But nowadays, everybody is spoiled rotten - built-in xovers, phase adjustment, parametric eq, and a partridge in a pear tree! We not only got away from analog eqs and into digital one, but we have these freakin produst that self-tune a system! Seriously, it is insane! People do not want several amps, because then you have the added expense of external xovers, distribution blocks, buttloads of RCAs, etc...


? then why choose to mock me over presenting the idea of a multi channel amp with several channels to go with said processors that offer the use of so many channels? You asked for ideas and I presented one. My idea was a 6 or 6+ channel amp (digital would be great if anything due to the fact its gonna be big regardless) No need to add $ or space for xovers if people are going to be using external "do it all" processors. To me it seemed it would fit in pretty well due to the fact that the ms-8 and god knows what will follow it, seem to be a firestorm in the market. I thought it would be a good way to ride the pony and make some $ off there tech. Obviously I have no idea what would be involved to make such an amp and I will never pretend I do. I just was looking at things like the xr-4s (excuse me if I get the model # wrong) from kenwood and figured two of those together would be the size of an average class a/b amp and have one set of connections and take care of a whole system. I know soundstream has the 6 channel and ppi has a few 5 channels and those are great but I think people would rather see 100+ X ? I also think it would be great since you could take.....say an 8 channel amp and run a full 7.1 setup with ppi's products. Your new subs that dont need an ass load of power are a perfect match to get away with this. I have been a fan of the newer soundstream and ppi since its been out. I have tried it! I have said before I like what you guys have done thus far with the new ppi line. I love that its stuff that could easily be run off a basic 5 channel amp. For years people were putting out really nice 5channel amps but you could not comfortably run a system off them (my opinion of course) and now you offer components that can! However....for people running 8ohm drivers, or dyns/morel or things that need some beef behind them I think a super powerful multi channel amp would be great. Just my 2cents... You have my address to mail the change!

also there were a couple 8channel a/d/s/ amps probably slightly before there time, as was the d'artagnan!


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



putergod said:


> It doesn't take rocket science to look at the guts, and see it's the same crap as every other Epsilon made amp. I have SS Class A 10.0 that I've had since the mid 90's (bought new). Because of my love for SS, when I was in the market for a 4 channel amp about 6 or 7 years ago, I bought an Epsilon made SoundStream. I bought the new one before I found out SS had been bought by a massed producing, chinese outsourcing, craptastic company. That amp blew resistors off the board, literally, within 6 months. The old SS is still playing and sounding beautiful at 15 yrs old.
> 
> The SoundStream name has been destroyed. The PPI name was already scared, deeply, by DEI, and will now be finished off by Epsilon. Chinese made amps are garbage, period. Even JL. I bought a 500/1, because everyone said they were so great. That POS blew up on a 2 ohm load, and was NEVER over driven. It stunk my car up for over a week. That will be, without a doubt, the LAST Chinese built POS amp I will EVER buy!


Again, I want your opinion. What exactly is "crap" to you? Was a certain part not big enough for you? Wrong color or what? Please explain what is in our amplifier that nobody else uses. 

Ahhhh so that is what this is all about? You got disappointed 6-7 years ago. What amp did you buy that disappointed you?

So if SS, PPI, RF, JL, MTX, PG and every other major brand are made in China, and we all suck, then please tell me what is your bradn of choice. You are not giving us any info. Did you buy an entry level SS amp that disappointed you? Was it is bootleg on eBay? And the undisclosed brand that you have now... If I build a crappy amp in the same country, would you buy it because it is not Chinese? Would it be different enough to not be the "same crap" as the rest of our amps? Help me to understand what it that you approve of, why, and what defines crap to you.


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> Not going to happen. If the price goes up from $1 a watt to $4+ a watt, the amps fluctuate due to inaccuracys in parts, some become less reliable and so forth, would you buy one? I wouldn't! I would love to build amps that are as visually appealing as an old school Art, PG MS or comparable amp on the inside, but it just is not going to be bought, so it is not going to happen. I wish buddy, I wish. I'm sure most of us manufacturers would love to make things in-house again, add new jobs, stop sending money to China and bring money into our own economy, and do a little part to fix our country. But our country only wants superior performance at eBay prices. Us consumers got exactly waht we asked for, lower cost products...


Amen!!!!!!!! 
People are all talk! and the idea of that stuff being made here again (and staying in business) is a wet dream. People wont pay, or sacrifice. This is not the country of old unfortunately. People want and want but dont want to offer a damn penny! (of course this is my opinion and mine only) I am way off topic...sorry. I have 0 compassion but yet am a very passionate person....go figure? Grizz is %1000 correct...its the market WE all created. Better learn to get on with it. People need to stay in business and people need to start understanding this. Its our bed and we have to lay in it!!...... for a while anyway


----------



## Grizz Archer

JAX said:


> Ha ha ..I think he so has a point there....just cause yours works doesnt mean squat as there were countless others that went up in smoke..thus "smokestream" was born.
> 
> and from your comment you havnt heard or used one of the new ones. ok. that is your opinion. fair enough


Out of curiosity, who knows who owned Soundstream when this happened? Oh, and it did happen! I was working at MTX in the mid 90s. I remember a car with a "smokestream" amp in iburinign down a shop in the middle of the night. 

So here is the answer for those of you that think we owned it at the time... BUZZZZ! No, we did not buy SS until 2001. Ever heard of Coleman product. As in coolers, camping gear and such? Yeah, that would be the second owner. He is the guy that sent everything to Asia and ruined the amplifiers. So, if anybody thinks they are hurting me feelings, not going to happen. We grew the company over 15 fold in the last 9 years. Just wanted to be clear that we did not make the "smokestream" amps. That was Coleman, not Epsilon for those of you who do not know the history...


----------



## rexroadj

I will say it again, as I have said countless times..... The new ref series is head and shoulders above the old! For anyone that knows the amps I have owned before or bought some of my older gear....The new ss ref are = or greater then anyone of them. If you have the room and the $ you are doing yourself a HUGE dis-service not to try one. Insane power, all the xover capabilities you could ask for. A 4.920 can drive anything! Absolutely fantastic job by the boys at SS. They put there best foot forward with those amps!


----------



## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> Was wondering...
> 
> If Grizz managed to bring back the Art series with quality that surpasses that of the old Art
> - with more modern technology like (as discussed before) digital pots and display for Xover and gain and such
> - no noise floor like the original
> - but still made in Asia...
> 
> Would prices drop like a rock on the old Art or would they still hold due to nostalgia?
> I have no doubt that the old PPI amps are great amps... It's just that I can't see myself buy a 15y old amp that doesn't have good efficiency, that might fail due to age, and all that for $500 or more...
> 
> Kelvin


They originals will always hold value and gain value in imho. They are truly artistic feats of Carolyn and that would never change. Even if Carolyna were to work together on a brand new line, it would never have a negative effict on the originals. In fact, it might even enlighten the newbies as to had baddass they were, thus gaining even more value... Nostalgia never dies.


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



WLDock said:


> As great as the old USA made SS, PPI, and PG amps were they all generally had good reps but there were some issues....so hand made is not the be all and end to all.


Well said. No human can measure every single parts for a specified 1% tolerance and insert the parts perfectly ata rate of a few hundred pieces per hour. Take into effect the human error factor. Glad some of us get it. It is ok to embrace new technology and still have a passion for old school. Wonder how many of these people drive oldie cars that were assembled before robots...


----------



## Grizz Archer

putergod said:


> WLDock - Handmade IS the Be All - End All of "many" industries, especially the consumer electronics (amplifiers, receivers, speakers, etc) industry. If, of course (to quote Ford) "Quality Is Job 1".
> QUOTE]
> 
> I won't make a comment on the first part. But you do realize that Fords are not made hand right? They use computer controlled robots and one of our members works with these for GM so he can tell you how accurate they are. And China uses computer controlled insertion machines. If you want only had-built amplifers from the USA, then that is perfectly fine. But to tell everybody that they own a bunch of crap, regardless of brand, because it uses modern and more accurate technology than an American sweat shop, i just absurd. There are alot of knowledgable people on here and my guess is that 90% of their products are from China. Again, these people are totally anal and very knowledgeable. So your claims are insulting to almost every brand and most members.


----------



## db-r

Grizz Archer said:


> Respectfully, I must disagree. True, the Korean factories can build some great boards. But that is a very small fraction of what is available. ALmost everything these days is made in China. Would you be surpised to see some cheesy swapmeet amplifier coome out of the same factory as an elite high end European amp? Yes, you would because you think that only Korea makes good boards. Not true. Do not blame China for unacceptable quality when it was obviously specified and approved by the manufacturer! Whether an amp is in the upper echelon or one of the crappiest amps made, we are to be held accountable, PERIOD. Korean do not have better machines, naturally higher IQs or any advantage as a constant. There are plenty of great China made amps that will outperform some Korean made amps.
> 
> I think you are really limiting yourself to only Korean amplifiers. Not that I have a problem with Korean amps. I don't. But is it my opinion that what you said is false by experience. Not just for my company but for other companies. This is not a biasy thing. You would crap yourself if you saw what I have seen in the China factories. What brands come from where. Makes you wonder - how does brand abc get away with charging $800 for this amp, when brand xyz only charges $600 and they are nearly identical?! Answer = marketing! Always.


Haha, maybe you don't know who I am, but I have seen it, ALL OF IT. You couldn't tell me anything I don't already know.

China's amplifiers at least 95% of them = FAIL

Korean amplfiers only about 50% of them = FAIL

Yes if you approve a crappy design from their "ready made engineering teams since you know NOTHING about amps" then YOU are FAIL.

I am disgusted by the people here that are attempting to make it seem like you should just accept the CRAP that comes from China as an "okay" amplifier. They are not. The circuit boards are the cheapest crap on the planet and everything is installed crooked, with all various lead lengths, 1 part leaning this way, the other leaning that way, some not connected at all, yet the factories still let that piss poor crap pass QC. Unfreaking believeable. I know I work on all kinds of modern amplifiers everyday.

I respect the old stuff for what it is, granted new stuff will outperform almost any older amplifier. The real problem I have with it is the corners that are cut, for a few pennies difference in cost, that COULD make the amplifiers much better, but greedy bastards (investment groups) that really don't give a **** about their products, just the bottom line, won't let it happen so they can buy a new BAJA boat or YACHT or a new Lambo that year, etc... Screw those people, they are not looking out for your (consumer) best interest. This whole idea makes me sick inside. 

Hire a real engineer (I am not one, but envisonelec seems like he is) design and build a decent US made amp with US made components and sell it for $4K for 500-1000 super clean, super rugged, badass watts and it WILL work, some people will buy it and you will stay in business if you eep your company small, concentrate on your product, not other BS like company cars, boats, planes, WTFever, etc. 

If you want low end garbage to make $$$,$$$,$$$ profit for 2011 then just go buy more garbage amplifiers from China and sell them at Flea Markets, seems to be what Car Audio has REALLY come down to these days. And go down in history books as FAIL.


----------



## db-r

Grizz Archer said:


> I'm sure most of us MARKETING COMPANIES/FIRMS would love to make things in-house again


Fixed.

Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## rexroadj

DB-R......your arguments......FAIL! but thanks for playing!


----------



## rexroadj

Am I the only one that notices that all these recent *******'s seem to all be from april 2008 and have VERY few posts???? anyone wanna explain this recent influx of Rhodes Scholar's????


----------



## db-r

rexroadj said:


> DB-R......your arguments......FAIL! but thanks for playing!


Whatever dude.


----------



## db-r

rexroadj said:


> Am I the only one that notices that all these recent *******'s seem to all be from april 2008 and have VERY few posts???? anyone wanna explain this recent influx of Rhodes Scholar's????


I don't know maybe that's when the forum first started. I've been around. I just don't like coming here because of the atmosphere. It's one that only makes sense to "intellectual" types and I am not one of them, just a regular person with real common sense. I speak no BS, and some people don't like me, but oh well, **** them is all I have to say about that, I am independent my thoughts are my own, and not afraid to say anything if I feel strongly enough about it. Take it however you want too.


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## rexroadj

db-r said:


> Whatever dude.


GFY....... DUDE!....I am so f'ing sick of people like this on here! Am I a frigging angel....no I was dumb enough to bite into this crap! Stay on the ****ing topic or take a hike... Have enough hair on your peaches to start another f'ng post. You and pubegod can start your own crap. Let me know how that works out for you!


----------



## db-r

rexroadj said:


> GFY....... DUDE!....I am so f'ing sick of people like this on here! Am I a frigging angel....no I was dumb enough to bite into this crap! Stay on the ****ing topic or take a hike... Have enough hair on your peaches to start another f'ng post. You and pubegod can start your own crap. Let me know how that works out for you!


WTF is GFY?

I'm sick of people like you on here. That's why I haven't come here much and I don't come here much. If you don't like it, get me banned, see if I care. You people (like I was talking about in my posts on the other page) are impossible to deal with. You can't see the forest for the trees...


----------



## envisionelec

I guess I have to get more aggressive or bash Epsilon to be noticed. 

Unfortunately, that's not my style.

Although I have a 240W design that you can fit into four cigarette packs abreast; I'm too late as the "mini" amps have already hit the market. It's just another Class D variation (sigma-delta, self oscillating design) with a synchronized SMPS.

I dunno - I just wouldn't consider it an "ART" replacement. I wouldn't buy it if it was!

I'd give my left arm and my right buttock (so I'm balanced ) to collaborate on a redesign. You guys at Epsilon are plenty competent to do the work, so I don't think there's much I could add, but I'd sure like to try. I won't be disappointed if you laugh - I understand. 

I think it's great that Epsilon has purchased PPI given the dedication that Grizz has shown to keeping this forum in the loop. He could have just said "Screw This!" a month ago and gone on. Keep it civil, or he just might!

I'm not just another opportunistic fan boi. The influx of cheap goods made us spoiled. Everyone likes a good deal, but now people demand exceptional quality for next to nothing, year over year while companies demand double digit growth at the same rate.
The surviving companies have learned that people want their amps to match their personality or clothing designers more than caring about sound quality. SEMA has become a fashion show with new extrusion designs appearing every year. The 6 people on this forum that believe the country's moral decline is partially indicated by the lack of USA made amplifiers may have other, more disturbing problems. Yes, it sucks. Nobody has all the answers. We wouldn't be human if we did.

And another thing. Handmade stuff _is_ less reliable. You forget to realize that the product has to be made first - and making something by hand is proven to be more wasteful than machine-made. Humans get tired and make mistakes and their products need rework. A lot. SMD parts are placed into a precisely screened bed of solder paste at a rate of 6-10 per second. Toroids are placed by hand. The transistors go in a jig and the whole board goes through wave soldering. Boards are assembled by hand into heatsinks. Operators use torque controlled drivers to secure the fasteners. Some forget to tighten all of them - someone has to check this. 

My first products were handmade. What a *****. The callbacks on in-field failures ensured that I'd never do that again! Oh sure, I could ignore my customers - but I took the hit to learn something, damnit.

envisionelec


----------



## envisionelec

db-r said:


> WTF is GFY?



I love the app, but it's a little off-putting. Hopefully you can see past that given the subject matter. 

Let me google that for you


----------



## db-r

Grizz Archer said:


> You OS only guys, help me to understand why modenr technology is not good enough for you. That is one cool thing about this forum. Some guys hate new school and only want old school, American, Korean amps. Other guys are all for full range class D with modern technology. While some of us agree to disagree, I do not so much care about your opinion as much as WHY AND HOW you derived your opinion. Opinion are worthless in a sense if they do not have any meat behind them. So I want to know why!


I think they just don't know any better. They call my shop all the time and when I tell them some old amp they have that was considered to be so awesome at one time is now relatively, just an old door stop, car-ramp, etc and would be made to look weak and puny compared to the better quality modern amps out there, they are stunned. Understandably, because they are so stuck on the old stuff they just don't know any better.

Bottom line IMO, is that some of the old stuff (not all) was king, some of the new stuff is even better, but they won't try it ever, so they will never find out.

My biggest ***** is build quality (since I have to work on the crap everyday). And my reasons for bashing the chinese products is because they are extremely lacking in build quality. Yeah, it's cheap, and powerful, and may even sound good, but it's put together like crap, uses the cheapest components and hardware they can get by with, and their main marketing gimmics are lights, chrome, and other BS that has nothing to do with the function or reliability of the amp. It's basically cheap junk that will get you by, you get what you pay for. I won't buy it. At my shop, we even go so far as to turn away manufacturer contracts offered to us by marketing companies that are hocking nothing but Chinese made amplifiers. Yeah, you heard that right, we think they are so bad we won't work on them, period, not even for a commercial contract. We don't like working on something we don't feel is worthy of warranty, even when it was new.


----------



## envisionelec

rexroadj said:


> Am I the only one that notices...this recent influx of Rhodes Scholar's????


Surely you mean "Rogue Scholars"? That's actually a compliment.

Whoops. My wife schooled me. Thanks, Honey.


----------



## db-r

envisionelec said:


> I love the app, but it's a little off-putting. Hopefully you can see past that given the subject matter.
> 
> Let me google that for you



Haha, thanks for that, that was funny. I figured it out long before though, not used to being told to GFY, but here that happens alot, I piss in peoples cereal here all the time I guess because they just don't like my opinions, and I don't understand their obsession with SQ, since I am not an SQ person, so we just naturally don't get along to start with, but I come here anyway, just to see what's going on in this world.

BTW: I DID mention you. Sounds like you know your shiz, and are down to earth.


----------



## envisionelec

Now that there is actually a debate about Chinese / Korean imports - let me detail some of the stuff I have found.

1. Hardware QualityThe clamp-down screws are soft and easily deform under normal torquing. The industry moved toward spring clamps for even less reliability.  
The power terminals are supposed to be brass, but are often pot metal with a screw soldered to the PCB inside. It's a massively cruel joke played on unsuspecting consumers and engineers, alike. We are not amused.​2. Counterfeit PartsNot just flat out counterfeits, but undersized die (inside where you can't see), overspec'd parts. Capacitor voltage ratings are inflated, resistor tolerances are fudged. I recently worked on a design with 1% tolerance-marked resistors. None of them were better than 10%!! WOW!
If you don't monitor your supply chain, you are building an inferior product. It doesn't matter who builds it - China, Korea or Uncle Bill in his basement buying eBay parts from Hong Kong.​3. The same CS, VAS and EF designs since 1985.Sigh. It sucks. It's used in every low end amp on the planet. It makes some power, it makes some noise. It's predictable and boring. The VAS stage in high quality amps is driven by its own, low ripple supply. This is critical to what would be considered "high end" performance. Not just an auxiliary winding off the ends of the V+/V- rails, but a well-regulated and filtered type unaffected by output current ripple. EF - emitter follower output stage. Precludes the need for a bias pot. Nobody wants a hot amp at idle, so just stick it in Class B. Not even hard B, not even into conduction.... Hi, Fonics. 
​4. Ground BounceBig, big problem in car amps. Most people don't even know what it is and many designers don't know what it can do to the sound. One errant trace will render an otherwise remarkable amplifier worthless. 
​5. Weak MagneticsGood magnetics cost more. Weak cost less. Don't buy Chinese sourced magnetics if you want a reliable power supply unless you are confident of the source. Transformers with a low permeability need more turns per sq inch for the same Gauss density. Problem is - these types also easier to saturate because they're getting so hot. I've addressed this before - it makes switching FETs go *poof*.
​More later, if you think it's interesting.


----------



## daudioman

rexroadj said:


> Am I the only one that notices that all these recent *******'s seem to all be from april 2008 and have VERY few posts???? anyone wanna explain this recent influx of Rhodes Scholar's????


WHEW!!! Looks like I joined just before I would be included that group LOL!!!... I may not be one of the bad ones after all...!!!!!  :laugh:


----------



## rexroadj

db-r said:


> WTF is GFY?
> 
> I'm sick of people like you on here. That's why I haven't come here much and I don't come here much. If you don't like it, get me banned, see if I care. You people (like I was talking about in my posts on the other page) are impossible to deal with. You can't see the forest for the trees...


It is short for Go **** Yourself! 
I dont need to get you banned, I am sure you will find a way! Who are you calling "you people"? Your right...."were" impossible to deal with 
Please...continue on in your fantasy land. So what are your ideas for PPI's future lineup? Since that is what this thread is actually about!


----------



## db-r

envisionelec said:


> Now that there is actually a debate about Chinese / Korean imports - let me detail some of the stuff I have found.
> 
> 1. Hardware QualityThe clamp-down screws are soft and easily deform under normal torquing. The industry moved toward spring clamps for even less reliability.
> The power terminals are supposed to be brass, but are often pot metal with a screw soldered to the PCB inside. It's a massively cruel joke played on unsuspecting consumers and engineers, alike. We are not amused.​2. Counterfeit PartsNot just flat out counterfeits, but undersized die (inside where you can't see), overspec'd parts. Capacitor voltage ratings are inflated, resistor tolerances are fudged. I recently worked on a design with 1% tolerance-marked resistors. None of them were better than 10%!! WOW!
> If you don't monitor your supply chain, you are building an inferior product. It doesn't matter who builds it - China, Korea or Uncle Bill in his basement buying eBay parts from Hong Kong.​3. The same CS, VAS and EF designs since 1985.Sigh. It sucks. It's used in every low end amp on the planet. It makes some power, it makes some noise. It's predictable and boring. The VAS stage in high quality amps is driven by its own, low ripple supply. This is critical to what would be considered "high end" performance. Not just an auxiliary winding off the ends of the V+/V- rails, but a well-regulated and filtered type unaffected by output current ripple. EF - emitter follower output stage. Precludes the need for a bias pot. Nobody wants a hot amp at idle, so just stick it in Class B. Not even hard B, not even into conduction.... Hi, Fonics.
> ​4. Ground BounceBig, big problem in car amps. Most people don't even know what it is and many designers don't know what it can do to the sound. One errant trace will render an otherwise remarkable amplifier worthless.
> ​5. Weak MagneticsGood magnetics cost more. Weak cost less. Don't buy Chinese sourced magnetics if you want a reliable power supply unless you are confident of the source. Transformers with a low permeability need more turns per sq inch for the same Gauss density. Problem is - these types also easier to saturate because they're getting so hot. I've addressed this before - it makes switching FETs go *poof*.
> ​More later, if you think it's interesting.



Tell all that to the engineers at those factories and they say:

"No, you not right, this product (talking about hardware magnetics etc) is spec very very good, best that money can buy, you not know what you saying..."

LOL... That's their excuse for everything and everything they do is right and everything you do is wrong and all their parts are the best availible on the planet.... What a joke.


----------



## bkjay

envisionelec said:


> Now that there is actually a debate about Chinese / Korean imports - let me detail some of the stuff I have found.
> 
> 1. Hardware QualityThe clamp-down screws are soft and easily deform under normal torquing. The industry moved toward spring clamps for even less reliability.
> The power terminals are supposed to be brass, but are often pot metal with a screw soldered to the PCB inside. It's a massively cruel joke played on unsuspecting consumers and engineers, alike. We are not amused.​2. Counterfeit PartsNot just flat out counterfeits, but undersized die (inside where you can't see), overspec'd parts. Capacitor voltage ratings are inflated, resistor tolerances are fudged. I recently worked on a design with 1% tolerance-marked resistors. None of them were better than 10%!! WOW!
> If you don't monitor your supply chain, you are building an inferior product. It doesn't matter who builds it - China, Korea or Uncle Bill in his basement buying eBay parts from Hong Kong.​3. The same CS, VAS and EF designs since 1985.Sigh. It sucks. It's used in every low end amp on the planet. It makes some power, it makes some noise. It's predictable and boring. The VAS stage in high quality amps is driven by its own, low ripple supply. This is critical to what would be considered "high end" performance. Not just an auxiliary winding off the ends of the V+/V- rails, but a well-regulated and filtered type unaffected by output current ripple. EF - emitter follower output stage. Precludes the need for a bias pot. Nobody wants a hot amp at idle, so just stick it in Class B. Not even hard B, not even into conduction.... Hi, Fonics.
> ​4. Ground BounceBig, big problem in car amps. Most people don't even know what it is and many designers don't know what it can do to the sound. One errant trace will render an otherwise remarkable amplifier worthless.
> ​5. Weak MagneticsGood magnetics cost more. Weak cost less. Don't buy Chinese sourced magnetics if you want a reliable power supply unless you are confident of the source. Transformers with a low permeability need more turns per sq inch for the same Gauss density. Problem is - these types also easier to saturate because they're getting so hot. I've addressed this before - it makes switching FETs go *poof*.
> ​More later, if you think it's interesting.


Yes more please. Great stuff


----------



## db-r

rexroadj said:


> It is short for Go **** Yourself!
> I dont need to get you banned, I am sure you will find a way! Who are you calling "you people"? Your right...."were" impossible to deal with
> Please...continue on in your fantasy land. So what are your ideas for PPI's future lineup? Since that is what this thread is actually about!


If they wanted my help they have my number, I am sure. I am not a marketing guy like them so they have no real questions for me to answer. And I am not an engineer, I am a tech, I do this for a living, and damned good at it. I have not been banned from a single forum, though I see people like you get banned all the time. Just a fact, not sure why, maybe because what I have to say is interesting, what you have to say is jibberish intellectual little sayings and other garbage that gets nothing done and is otherwise meaningless, except of course, to you, and YOUR peers.


----------



## rexroadj

db-r said:


> If they wanted my help they have my number, I am sure. I am not a marketing guy like them so they have no real questions for me to answer. And I am not an engineer, I am a tech, I do this for a living, and damned good at it. I have not been banned from a single forum, though I see people like you get banned all the time. Just a fact, not sure why, maybe because what I have to say is interesting, what you have to say is jibberish intellectual little sayings and other garbage that gets nothing done and is otherwise meaningless, except of course, to you, and YOUR peers.


What ever helps you sleep at night..... I have not been banned either (YET) I also have a lot of attempts (1,840 to be exact!) If I go out because of people like you going off about nothing then so be it. If you dont have anything else to add to the discussion about ideas to help with a new PPI line then start your own thread about what ever you want but your crap is not needed here!


----------



## db-r

envisionelec said:


> Now that there is actually a debate about Chinese / Korean imports - let me detail some of the stuff I have found.
> 
> 1. Hardware QualityThe clamp-down screws are soft and easily deform under normal torquing. The industry moved toward spring clamps for even less reliability.
> ​




We twist them off everday, more-so on the chinese amps, they must have the worlds cheapest screws ever made.

Spring clips actually are not the problem, the problem is the way the mosfets legs are cut down to size to fit in the hole in the board, and the angle at which they are mounted (90 degrees to the board). The heavy components on the main board make it "flop" even when just driving down the road hitting speedbumps and they break right off at the board where the legs are cut down to size to fit the little hole. We have a soldering technique that solves this problem but it's very labor intensive but we charge accordingly and have no returns on those amps accordingly.



> The power terminals are supposed to be brass, but are often pot metal with a screw soldered to the PCB inside. It's a massively cruel joke played on unsuspecting consumers and engineers, alike. We are not amused.


YEP. I was like OMG, someone else who actually knows those stupid pretty connectors are dirt cheap, crappy electically, POT METAL.. LOL x 2

​


> 2. Counterfeit PartsNot just flat out counterfeits, but undersized die (inside where you can't see), overspec'd parts. Capacitor voltage ratings are inflated, resistor tolerances are fudged. I recently worked on a design with 1% tolerance-marked resistors. None of them were better than 10%!! WOW!​




Curious to what models you found this in, as far as I know the Korean factories screen their parts pretty well (the decent factories over there, not all are). I would be this was found in China amps.

​


> 3. The same CS, VAS and EF designs since 1985.Sigh. It sucks. It's used in every low end amp on the planet. It makes some power, it makes some noise. It's predictable and boring. The VAS stage in high quality amps is driven by its own, low ripple supply. This is critical to what would be considered "high end" performance. Not just an auxiliary winding off the ends of the V+/V- rails, but a well-regulated and filtered type unaffected by output current ripple. EF - emitter follower output stage. Precludes the need for a bias pot. Nobody wants a hot amp at idle, so just stick it in Class B. Not even hard B, not even into conduction.... Hi, Fonics. ​





Boring, yes, functional, YES. Needs to be changed, not necessarily, depends on what your "goal" is for the product.

​


> 4. Ground BounceBig, big problem in car amps. Most people don't even know what it is and many designers don't know what it can do to the sound. One errant trace will render an otherwise remarkable amplifier worthless. ​




Please elaborate this.

​


> 5. Weak MagneticsGood magnetics cost more. Weak cost less. Don't buy Chinese sourced magnetics if you want a reliable power supply unless you are confident of the source. Transformers with a low permeability need more turns per sq inch for the same Gauss density. Problem is - these types also easier to saturate because they're getting so hot. I've addressed this before - it makes switching FETs go *poof*.​




Hmm. Since almost all the mines for this material are in China, what do you expect?

​


> More later, if you think it's interesting.


[/quote]

Yes, quite interesting. Much better than little intellectual sayings and other worthless garbage being spewed in this thread.


----------



## db-r

rexroadj said:


> What ever helps you sleep at night..... I have not been banned either (YET) I also have a lot of attempts (1,840 to be exact!) If I go out because of people like you going off about nothing then so be it. If you dont have anything else to add to the discussion about ideas to help with a new PPI line then start your own thread about what ever you want but your crap is not needed here!


Here's one for your tastes, except with an average IQ person twist:

Who died and made you ADMIN? STFU, and read.


----------



## daudioman

envisionelec said:


> Now that there is actually a debate about Chinese / Korean imports - let me detail some of the stuff I have found....
> 
> ...[/INDENT]...More later, if you think it's interesting.


I vote to continue but it may be better served in another thread just to allow yourself to digress and/or get off topic (this thread) if that makes sense ; But at least it sets the bar for the new amps they will make...maybe! 

What I do know is they need to be "Absolutely State of the Art" if done at all or whats the point! Just move PC amps to the middle product tier and use Art as the premium models (few in number...etc).


----------



## starboy869

cough cough limited run


----------



## db-r

daudioman said:


> I vote to continue but it may be better served in another thread just to allow yourself to digress and/or get off topic (this thread) if that makes sense ; But at least it sets the bar for the new amps they will make...maybe!
> 
> What I do know is they need to be "Absolutely State of the Art" if done at all or whats the point! Just move PC amps to the middle product tier and use Art as the premium models (few in number...etc).


If you really like them (Epsilon). Just freaking pray that they actually read the stuff posted here and take it into consideration and are not just here to get some catchy idea for free that they can make more $$$,$$$ from. I wonder about companies, especially "investment groups" anytime they ask the public for help with a product. They make you feel like they want you involved then they just take a catchy idea they got for free and run with it and ignore all the other stuff/gripes/complaints/complements etc that you posted in their thread.....

Epsilon: Make it BETTER. READ what we are saying here, please. PPI already has the name drug through the mud IMO, so good luck, just don't make it worse than it already is/has been recently. Maybe we will start accepting them for repair again here...


----------



## daudioman

envisionelec said:


> Now that there is actually a debate about Chinese / Korean imports - let me detail some of the stuff I have found.
> 
> 
> The power terminals are supposed to be brass, but are often pot metal with a screw soldered to the PCB inside. It's a massively cruel joke played on unsuspecting consumers and engineers, alike. We are not amused.


Come to think of it I noticed that before on one amp brand we sold (J...B...L) when I worked at Tweeter. I was replacing a few amps on our display board and stripped the Ground Connector by over torquing the screw. That same torque setting was used successfully on the other amps I was replacing (JL, Alpine to name the others) Needless to say the amp was garbage after that....well maybe before that...?


----------



## ISTundra

Cripes... since this thread has turned into a poofest, I'm just going to email the winning design to Grizz rather than post it here.

Grizz, check your PM's tomorrow.


----------



## PPI_GUY

I haven't auditioned one of the new SoundStream Reference series but, the guts pics I have seen all look pretty good. If they make rated power, sound clean and are reliable, I don't see a problem.


----------



## putergod

> Out of curiosity, I would like to know all of the "so many great amps" that we have destroyed. I respect your opinion fully, but would like to know of every amp that you feel this way about. You mentioned Soundstream Reference, but what are the rest.


All of Soundstream. I don’t know who ALL you own, but the only one you have that I care about (well up until you bought PPI, but DEI had already destroyed them) is Soundstream.



> Also, for my own learning, what did you like about the original Reference that the new Reference cannot do? Does the new Reference amps do too much, making it hard for you to tune? Is there an inproved specs that you do not understand that I can help you with?
> 
> Thanx


Wow… that’s funny. The problem has nothing to do with features, technology, or specs (well, specs somewhat, yes). The problem is BUILD QUALITY. And it SUCKS ASS and has since they first got shipped to China.





> I won't make a comment on the first part. But you do realize that Fords are not made hand right? They use computer controlled robots and one of our members works with these for GM so he can tell you how accurate they are. And China uses computer controlled insertion machines. If you want only had-built amplifers from the USA, then that is perfectly fine. But to tell everybody that they own a bunch of crap, regardless of brand, because it uses modern and more accurate technology than an American sweat shop, i just absurd. There are alot of knowledgable people on here and my guess is that 90% of their products are from China. Again, these people are totally anal and very knowledgeable. So your claims are insulting to almost every brand and most members.


I never said Ford was handmade, or even made in America anymore for that matter. I said I was QUOTING THEM. That was a slogan they used to use… BTW, the BEST cars in the world are handmade… just thought I’d throw that tidbit out there.

Also, I USED to think that there were a lot of knowledgeable people on here, but now I’m not so sure. And if people choose to use garbage because it's cheap, then so be it. If they find that insulting, then maybe they need to start thinking about taking the titty out of their mouths and becoming an adult. I frankly dont give a flip if the truth hurts their epeen. Chinese built amps are junk, PERIOD. EVER SINGLE SOLITARY ONE!

If Epsilon wasn't so dang greedy, they would bring SOME manufacturing back to the "US Sweatshops" as you put it, even though that's really funny. It's no secret how things operate in China, and to pretend it's not true just to justify your exsistence, is naive and childish. My suggestion: Bring the high end Soundstream and PPI products BACK to the states; BACK to being handmade, and even price them back where they used to be, for that quality. I'd also be more impressed if you brought back some of the original engineers for those particular products as well. Keep making the low end junk in China.. it fattens the wallet. But if you don't want us, at least me anyway, to always consider your products as garbage, then do something about it.

You also asked in another post which amps I use now, and which Epsilon SS amp I have… even though I already posted all of that info, I’ll sum it up here for you: the quality amps I currently have and use are US Amps (only the US Made ones) and Soundstream (before any buyout happened). The unit that blew crappily was the EGA4120.


----------



## putergod

rexroadj said:


> Am I the only one that notices that all these recent *******'s seem to all be from april 2008 and have VERY few posts???? anyone wanna explain this recent influx of Rhodes Scholar's????


Maybe because us "*******'s (sic)" are actually educated enough to not feel the need to post in every single thread and waste away on a forum full of imbeciles like yourself.

I post when I am passionate about something I've read, and feel led to. So BIOYA.


----------



## DS-21

putergod said:


> BTW, the MOST PROBLEMATIC cars in the world are handmade… just thought I’d thrown that tidbit out there.


Edited to reflect reality.

But just curious, what moderns do you think are "handmade"?


----------



## Delsole

I spoke to an uncle of mine that has been in the car audio business since the 80's. He came up with the same idea as a couple others on this forum. Sorry for not quoting but i have a limited amount of time tonight to look through the thread. Anyway as said earlier in the thread why not make an amp that we can model thee amp. Something made with the best components. Sure it will be pricey but that's why you only make limited quantities of it. Make so its something that the people just have to have. Not all, but there are still people out there that will pay all the money for whats considered the best.

I think it would be huge for ppi to regain its title as having thee or one of thee best amps on the market as it once did. Right now ppi is in the ok category to many, possibly because the pc doesn't seem to be catching anyone's eye(which i don't think it ever did). Precision power just needs that "wow" back regardless of cost(to a certain extent). Not something with the same quality as the sedona so people say looky here another ok amp is on the market. Precision Power needs to be put back up on the map.


----------



## subwoofery

Delsole said:


> I spoke to an uncle of mine that has been in the car audio business since the 80's. He came up with the same idea as a couple others on this forum. Sorry for not quoting but i have a limited amount of time tonight to look through the thread. Anyway as said earlier in the thread why not make an amp that we can model thee amp. Something made with the best components. Sure it will be pricey but that's why you only make limited quantities of it. Make so its something that the people just have to have. Not all, but there are still people out there that will pay all the money for whats considered the best.
> 
> I think it would be huge for ppi to regain its title as having thee or one of thee best amps on the market as it once did. Right now ppi is in the ok category to many, possibly because the pc doesn't seem to be catching anyone's eye(which i don't think it ever did). Precision power just needs that "wow" back regardless of cost(to a certain extent). Not something with the same quality as the sedona so people say looky here another ok amp is on the market. Precision Power needs to be put back up on the map.


That actually did work for PG... Would be a good idea to make Limited Edition amps  ... :surprised: ...  ...  

Kelvin


----------



## n_olympios

I've been following the thread and can't help but be sad that some are so narrowminded to poison it with their bitterness for whatever reason. 

Anyway, I've got two points I'd like to make: 

a) "thee amp" doesn't pay the bills. And even if it did, it'd have to be sold in large quantities. To do so, it would not only need to be good, but be famous as a brand as well (prior to its debut). Which brings me to:

b) Although most of us here know/remember PPI from back in the day, the rest of the world, aka today's big number of potential car audio buyers, don't. Those who are a bit more "refined" and will look past the ordinary Sony/Pioneer/Kenwood amps they can get in malls, will fall onto brands such as JL Audio, Kicker, Rockford, maybe even Audison, Focal or Helix. Noone knows PPI nowadays. A bunch of old school lovers or hard core car audio fanatics just isn't enough to make a brand fly, not even today with the power of internet and word of mouth. Who would, today, buy a PPI amp in the upper price bracket instead of say a Genesis, Brax, or Tru or Sinfoni? Brand image is equally important as build quality and sound quality. Well to me it isn't, but I'm not the average buyer, although I do own some of the higher end brand amps (not for their name though). 

To conclude, I believe that PPI needs to get on the map *first*, _then_ make "thee amp". That way, with a strong brand image and a sufficient number of followers, making thee amp would be a much more successful move. How do they get on the map? Well, you don't need to have a perfect product for that, "ok" amps are just as good. Marketing and advertising can do wonders, you know. IMO, of course. 

I am, despite all that rambling, thrilled at the idea of ART amps becoming available again, and although I've never owned one myself, I've always been fun of both the graphics and quality on them.


----------



## db-r

Grizz Archer said:


> There are alot of knowledgable people on here and my guess is that 90% of their products are from China. Again, these people are totally anal and very knowledgeable. So your claims are insulting to almost every brand and most members.


This has given me endless LOLZ. Sorry guys, now I see why you come here instead of the other much more popular forums for help with your products. With statements like that, defending Chinese made junk, people on all the other forums would send you home with your tail between your legs... If you do decide to do so, let me know first so I can go watch what happens, LOL...


----------



## putergod

db-r said:


> This has given me endless LOLZ. Sorry guys, now I see why you come here instead of the other much more popular forums for help with your products. With statements like that, defending Chinese made junk, people on all the other forums would send you home with your tail between your legs... If you do decide to do so, let me know first so I can go watch what happens, LOL...


QFE

This guy actually knows what he's talking about, being as that he specializes in repairing asian crap. He probably stays REALLY busy!


----------



## db-r

Yeah, we do. Seen it all, some good, some bad, but definately NOT as good as it could be. That's been my whole point. They will just continue down the same paths, won't ever change, can't afford too... I know that business (getting amps from overseas and having your name slapped on them) all too well.


----------



## db-r

Would also like to pat myself on the back a little bit. Some of the good, big popular Korean factories have actually TAKEN the advice I have given them on some newer model amplifiers and they so far have had the lowest return rate I have EVER seen.  So yeah, I may not be an engineer, but the things I see breaking, I know how to fix, and if dumphucks would just listen to me, they'd be WAYYY better off, but they insist they know more than I do about what I do everyday, so oh well....


----------



## Delsole

n_olympios said:


> I've been following the thread and can't help but be sad that some are so narrowminded to poison it with their bitterness for whatever reason.
> 
> Anyway, I've got two points I'd like to make:
> 
> a) "thee amp" doesn't pay the bills. And even if it did, it'd have to be sold in large quantities. To do so, it would not only need to be good, but be famous as a brand as well (prior to its debut). Which brings me to:
> 
> b) Although most of us here know/remember PPI from back in the day, the rest of the world, aka today's big number of potential car audio buyers, don't. Those who are a bit more "refined" and will look past the ordinary Sony/Pioneer/Kenwood amps they can get in malls, will fall onto brands such as JL Audio, Kicker, Rockford, maybe even Audison, Focal or Helix. Noone knows PPI nowadays. A bunch of old school lovers or hard core car audio fanatics just isn't enough to make a brand fly, not even today with the power of internet and word of mouth. Who would, today, buy a PPI amp in the upper price bracket instead of say a Genesis, Brax, or Tru or Sinfoni? Brand image is equally important as build quality and sound quality. Well to me it isn't, but I'm not the average buyer, although I do own some of the higher end brand amps (not for their name though).
> 
> To conclude, I believe that PPI needs to get on the map *first*, _then_ make "thee amp". That way, with a strong brand image and a sufficient number of followers, making thee amp would be a much more successful move. How do they get on the map? Well, you don't need to have a perfect product for that, "ok" amps are just as good. Marketing and advertising can do wonders, you know. IMO, of course.
> 
> I am, despite all that rambling, thrilled at the idea of ART amps becoming available again, and although I've never owned one myself, I've always been fun of both the graphics and quality on them.



It may not pay the bills today but if thats the price to get ppi back on the maps would it not be worth a try. I know for a fact if they come out with another ok amp its not gonna do a single thing for precision power. We obviously know making mass quantities of something expensive would be a not so smart move. Hell even if you want to make another ok amp scratch the sedona line and do it there. I just think that unless ppi has something astonishing no ones gonna catch on. If it worked back when im sure it can again. On another note there is a little bit of a hype that ppi is bringing back the art amps. Who know this may be the only chance to make the right move.


----------



## fertigaudio

Delsole said:


> On another note there is a little bit of a hype that ppi is bringing back the art amps. Who know this may be the only chance to make the right move.


Search for Dave Brimer, Carolyn Hall Young, Grizz Archer there will not be an Art anything and you will learn a ton about the history of PPI and the present day issues. Arts still reign for many and will be hard to match the excitement of what CHY, Jeff Scoon, and others created 15-20 years ago.

Like others have said PPI already has good amps, I am hoping the Epsilon team can come out with something amazing albeit in limited quantities.


----------



## Delsole

fertigaudio said:


> Search for Dave Brimer, Carolyn Hall Young, Grizz Archer there will not be an Art anything and you will learn a ton about the history of PPI and the present day issues. Arts still reign for many and will be hard to match the excitement of what CHY, Jeff Scoon, and others created 15-20 years ago.
> 
> Like others have said PPI already has good amps, I am hoping the Epsilon team can come out with something amazing albeit in limited quantities.


There may not be a bunch of hype on Google but anyone that knows ppi right now is thinking there will be an art amp coming out sometime soon. As you said ppi does have good amps, Maybe great amps but right now there labeled good. I know there are a number of issues and things are always a lot harder then they may seem. I just don't see how replacing the art with something lower quality the the pc amps will do any good.


----------



## ANT

Please keep this thread on topic guys. You can start another China/Korea/USA debate in another thread if you wish.

ANT


----------



## DS-21

Delsole said:


> I think it would be huge for ppi to regain its title as having thee or one of thee best amps on the market as it once did.


Question is, what's "thee best amp"? Yes, there are deluded idiots who think there's some magic to amps that cause them to "sound different" from one another. But ultimately amps are commodity parts: it's about size, power, features, and price. With some nod to build quality and aesthetics.

A statement product today won't be an amp. Everyone with any sense knows that sonically amps are commodity parts. If there is to be a statement product from PPI at some point, it's going to have to be some sort of OEM integration processor with a trick room correction bit. That's the only space (electronics-wise) _for_ a legitimate "statement" in car-fi today.

What many of us want from a new amp line is simply something that's basically like all of the other current modern flagship amps (Jello HD's, Alpine_ PDX's, Kenwood_ XRs, and so on) in terms of power, features, and volume displaced, but in a different form factor. One thing that can legitimately differentiate one amp from another in the marketplace is being able to easily fit in spots where similar amps can't.



n_olympios said:


> b) Although most of us here know/remember PPI from back in the day, the rest of the world, aka today's big number of potential car audio buyers, don't. Those who are a bit more "refined" and will look past the ordinary Sony/Pioneer/Kenwood amps they can get in malls, will fall onto brands such as JL Audio, Kicker, Rockford, maybe even Audison, Focal or Helix.


There's absolutely nothing different about those two groups of amps. Well, maybe one thing: the latter group are more likely than the former to have differential balanced inputs, which can be an important feature.



n_olympios said:


> Who would, today, buy a PPI amp in the upper price bracket instead of say a Genesis, Brax, or Tru or Sinfoni?


Isn't the better question why would anyone waste their money on the overpriced, oversized, underpowered, antiquated behemoths from any of those marketers and/or makers? The CA&E review of one of the Genesis amps goes to great pains to talk their way around the tweakoid-placating design shortcomings in that amp, for instance.



n_olympios said:


> although I've never owned one myself, I've always been fun of both the graphics and quality on them.


A tour through the classifieds section here can fix that.


----------



## Thoraudio

DS-21 said:


> Isn't the better question why would anyone waste their money on the overpriced, oversized, underpowered, antiquated behemoths from any of those marketers and/or makers? The CA&E review of one of the Genesis amps goes to great pains to talk their way around the tweakoid-placating design shortcomings in that amp, for instance.


Could be the same reason you prefer Kiton seven-folds and C&J Handgrades. You can get stuff that performs the same function at Wal-mart for an order of magnitude cheaper, but, it's not the same, is it.


----------



## fertigaudio

Thoraudio said:


> Could be the same reason you prefer Kiton seven-folds and C&J Handgrades. You can get stuff that performs the same function at Wal-mart for an order of magnitude cheaper, but, it's not the same, is it.


Ties and Shoes are commodities just like amps.


----------



## Thoraudio

FWIW, I agree with DS on the sonic qualities of amps, but I disagree on watt/cubic inch being the ONLY reason to pick one over the other.


----------



## BP1Fanatic

bkjay said:


> envisionelec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now that there is actually a debate about Chinese / Korean imports - let me detail some of the stuff I have found.
> 
> 1. Hardware Quality
> The clamp-down screws are soft and easily deform under normal torquing. The industry moved toward spring clamps for even less reliability.
> The power terminals are supposed to be brass, but are often pot metal with a screw soldered to the PCB inside. It's a massively cruel joke played on unsuspecting consumers and engineers, alike. We are not amused.
> 
> 2. Counterfeit Parts
> Not just flat out counterfeits, but undersized die (inside where you can't see), overspec'd parts. capacitor voltage ratings are inflated, resistor tolerances are fudged. I recently worked on a design with 1% tolerance-marked resistors. None of them were better than 10%!! WOW!
> If you don't monitor your supply chain, you are building an inferior product. It doesn't matter who builds it - China, Korea or Uncle Bill in his basement buying eBay parts from Hong Kong.
> 
> 3. The same CS, VAS and EF designs since 1985.
> Sigh. It sucks. It's used in every low end amp on the planet. It makes some power, it makes some noise. It's predictable and boring. The VAS stage in high quality amps is driven by its own, low ripple supply. This is critical to what would be considered "high end" performance. Not just an auxiliary winding off the ends of the V+/V- rails, but a well-regulated and filtered type unaffected by output current ripple. EF - emitter follower output stage. Precludes the need for a bias pot. Nobody wants a hot amp at idle, so just stick it in Class B. Not even hard B, not even into conduction.... Hi, Fonics.
> 
> 
> 4. Ground Bounce
> Big, big problem in car amps. Most people don't even know what it is and many designers don't know what it can do to the sound. One errant trace will render an otherwise remarkable amplifier worthless.
> 
> 
> 5. Weak Magnetics
> Good magnetics cost more. Weak cost less. Don't buy Chinese sourced magnetics if you want a reliable power supply unless you are confident of the source. Transformers with a low permeability need more turns per sq inch for the same Gauss density. Problem is - these types also easier to saturate because they're getting so hot. I've addressed this before - it makes switching FETs go *poof*.
> 
> 
> More later, if you think it's interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes more please. Great stuff
Click to expand...

+ one


----------



## n_olympios

DS-21 said:


> There's absolutely nothing different about those two groups of amps.


But that's my point, any differences they do have are mostly marketing based. 


DS-21 said:


> Isn't the better question why would anyone waste their money on the overpriced, oversized, underpowered, antiquated behemoths from any of those marketers and/or makers?


Although I don't consider the better heatsink design/heat dissipation methods/mosfets/power supplies some of the more expensive amps use to be a waste of money, the question in this discussion would be how PPI can get a slice of the high end pie, by convincing those ready to splash out their money on those amps to one of PPI's creations instead. 


DS-21 said:


> A tour through the classifieds section here can fix that.


I know. I try to avoid the classifieds section, I've already got many more amps than I really need. Actually I've got more of everything. :laugh:


----------



## BP1Fanatic

ISTundra said:


> Cripes... since this thread has turned into a poofest, I'm just going to email the winning design to Grizz rather than post it here.
> 
> Grizz, check your PM's tomorrow.


Do you think that's fair to the rest of us following this thread?


----------



## Delsole

BP1Fanatic said:


> Do you think that's fair to the rest of us following this thread?


Agreed^^^^


----------



## envisionelec

ISTundra said:


> Cripes... since this thread has turned into a poofest, I'm just going to email the winning design to Grizz rather than post it here.
> 
> Grizz, check your PM's tomorrow.


Wow. You must be famous to be so sure of yourself. I'm impressed.


----------



## envisionelec

My post was made to educate the members on the caveats of overseas amplifier design/assembly. It's too expensive to source parts in the USA and ship them for assembly, so they are sourced by (hopefully) authorized distributors. My hope is that the interested parties reading this thread can see the useful information over the noise. 

I refuse to start a new thread, because I am not debating Asia/USA. I am simply pointing out the pitfalls of overseas sourcing. It's not news to Epsilon, I am sure. They have almost 30 years of experience with Asian suppliers. I am sure they can get the job done, if they want to. But that's the key - do they want to differentiate the (yet unnamed) series? 

Here's the deal. When I see a company buy out a brand, that amplifiers morph into just another name on the same heatsinks. Ok, so you're using a RED soldermask, moved the toroids and put chrome knobs on the pots. You can fool everyone else, but you didn't fool me. (Not that I matter). 

This really isn't the place to ask for marketing questions. We're passionate about proper design and are pretty nit-picky about our amps. I feel like this thread is just to goad us into believing we are making a difference. 

Or, I could be totally wrong. It's fun to speculate.


----------



## starboy869

any chance a big box store could pickup some of the ppi line up?


----------



## starboy869

btw my work / mspaint skillz coming tonight


----------



## rexroadj

Ok, seriously.....I dont get how people are still missing this. Its been said a thousand times! THERE WILL NOT BE A NEW ART SERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats the whole point of this frigging thread. To come up with potential new names, heat sink designs, and maybe even have a chance to post your opinion about what else you would like to see added or subtracted from the amps themselves (features, etc.) Maybe they will be taken into account and maybe they wont. If you dont feel they will then dont clutter up the thread. If you dont have anything to contribute for ideas....Dont clutter up the thread. If your going to be so ignorant to continue a discussion about "new art" amps then start a new thread about how you "wish" they would or "when" they do, come out with a new one. On hear we have been told by a rep for the company "not gonna happen" so get it through your head people. NO NEW ARTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Now.....on to the new ideas!


----------



## envisionelec

rexroadj said:


> NO NEW ARTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Now.....on to the new ideas!


Oh. Sorry. :blush:


----------



## rexroadj

envisionelec said:


> Oh. Sorry. :blush:


No man, no biggie. Some people have some great ideas and know what they are talking about (just the same some others do not!) They can just stop referring there new ideas as "new arts" and just say an idea for there new line. I dont mean to be a total ass, its just that discussing a new art line is completely counter productive. Talking about ppi producing a new line of amps on the other hand...........
Also thank you for your insight/info you have posted. It has been great reading!


----------



## db-r

rexroadj said:


> Ok, seriously.....I dont get how people are still missing this. Its been said a thousand times! THERE WILL NOT BE A NEW ART SERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats the whole point of this frigging thread. To come up with potential new names, heat sink designs, and maybe even have a chance to post your opinion about what else you would like to see added or subtracted from the amps themselves (features, etc.) Maybe they will be taken into account and maybe they wont. If you dont feel they will then dont clutter up the thread. If you dont have anything to contribute for ideas....Dont clutter up the thread. If your going to be so ignorant to continue a discussion about "new art" amps then start a new thread about how you "wish" they would or "when" they do, come out with a new one.  On hear we have been told by a rep for the company "not gonna happen" so get it through your head people. NO NEW ARTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Now.....on to the new ideas!



This thread is fail. I won't be back. Made my point.


----------



## rexroadj

db-r said:


> This thread is fail. I won't be back. Made my point.


Promises promises!


----------



## DS-21

Thoraudio said:


> Could be the same reason you prefer Kiton seven-folds and C&J Handgrades. You can get stuff that performs the same function at Wal-mart for an order of magnitude cheaper, but, it's not the same, is it.


You're not so daft as to fail to comprehend that a large part of the "function" of a tie or a pair of shoes is aesthetic. So some polyesther noose from Wal-Mart is hardly the functional equivalent of a double-four-fold Kiton (they're not _true_ 7-folds), and some petrochemical glue-job is simply never going equal a pair of calfskin Goodyear welted dress shoes.

The sole function of a car audio amplifier, by contrast, is to take an input signal and make it louder. Well, possibly to do some processing to that signal along the way, too, but you get my point.

After all, unless one wishes her/his car to be thief-bait, an amplifier is generally hidden from view. So, besides the criteria I mentioned in the post to which you replied (of which you only took two), and maybe adding brand snobbery, what else matters in amps?

Lastly, I only own a couple pairs of C&J Handgrades. I don't dislike them by any means, but they don't seem to fit me as well as Edward Greens, Grenson Masterpieces, Lobbs, etc. (Or, to go across the Channel, Ludwig Reiters or JM Westons.) Besides, most of my shoe purchases in the last couple years have been Aldens. Yep, "lowly" American Aldens. Kiton ties...you got me there.


----------



## Oliver

Thoraudio said:


> FWIW, I agree with DS on the sonic qualities of amps, but I disagree on watt/cubic inch being the ONLY reason to pick one over the other.


There are quite a few smallish things that go into it 

1] customer service
2] are the connections all on one side
3] does it visually move me
4] can it ACTUALLY do what i want done
5] move the speakers in such a way that they convey an image of angels singing


----------



## rexroadj

Oliver said:


> There are quite a few smallish things that go into it
> 
> 1] customer service
> 2] are the connections all on one side
> 3] does it visually move me
> 4] can it ACTUALLY do what i want done
> 5] move the speakers in such a way that they convey an image of angels singing


You mean of course if said angels were actually recorded singing, right?
I dont want Jamey Johnson to sound like a bunch of angels, or bengals, or Eminems


----------



## PPI_GUY

So, meanwhile back at the amp suggestion thread....


----------



## Grizz Archer

fertigaudio said:


> After speaking with Grizz and having emails from his engineers sent to me. It is obvious they have this handled.
> 
> Grizz,
> How are the submission looking statistically. Good Better Best. How many people have submitted? What kind of names have you narrowed it down to. Would love to hear from you on how things are going on your end.
> 
> Brandon.


Got about 30+ names and about 8 drawings. I can tell you this - there is one that I love! We have made a couple of timeline decisions. The Art boards will be to expensive for todays market. But we need something between Sedona and PC so we are finish the details on a new series with different board in a goo dprice point we are missing. That means the series I wanted will probably be a 2012 release or late next year, giving me time to scream and beg until I get my way. We'll see how that works our for me... 
So I can take submissions for awhile still...


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz Archer said:


> Got about 30+ names and about 8 drawings. I can tell you this - there is one that I love! We have made a couple of timeline decisions. The Art boards will be to expensive for todays market. But we need something between Sedona and PC so we are finish the details on a new series with different board in a goo dprice point we are missing. That means the series I wanted will probably be a 2012 release or late next year, giving me time to scream and beg until I get my way. We'll see how that works our for me...
> So I can take submissions for awhile still...


Sounds like the best you could do with the time table in front of you.
When you are screaming and begging, use the following words...

*Pro*fessional *Mos*fet, high current, military spec, competition grade. 

LOL!


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



rexroadj said:


> ? then why choose to mock me over presenting the idea of a multi channel amp with several channels to go with said processors that offer the use of so many channels? You asked for ideas and I presented one. My idea was a 6 or 6+ channel amp (digital would be great if anything due to the fact its gonna be big regardless) No need to add $ or space for xovers if people are going to be using external "do it all" processors. To me it seemed it would fit in pretty well due to the fact that the ms-8 and god knows what will follow it, seem to be a firestorm in the market. I thought it would be a good way to ride the pony and make some $ off there tech. Obviously I have no idea what would be involved to make such an amp and I will never pretend I do. I just was looking at things like the xr-4s (excuse me if I get the model # wrong) from kenwood and figured two of those together would be the size of an average class a/b amp and have one set of connections and take care of a whole system. I know soundstream has the 6 channel and ppi has a few 5 channels and those are great but I think people would rather see 100+ X ? I also think it would be great since you could take.....say an 8 channel amp and run a full 7.1 setup with ppi's products. Your new subs that dont need an ass load of power are a perfect match to get away with this. I have been a fan of the newer soundstream and ppi since its been out. I have tried it! I have said before I like what you guys have done thus far with the new ppi line. I love that its stuff that could easily be run off a basic 5 channel amp. For years people were putting out really nice 5channel amps but you could not comfortably run a system off them (my opinion of course) and now you offer components that can! However....for people running 8ohm drivers, or dyns/morel or things that need some beef behind them I think a super powerful multi channel amp would be great. Just my 2cents... You have my address to mail the change!
> 
> also there were a couple 8channel a/d/s/ amps probably slightly before there time, as was the d'artagnan!


Whoa man! I was not mocking you. Sorry if you took it that way. I'm a littel twisted right now with a death and stroke in the family. My concentration is pretty poor without added stress. Anyway, You know I am about about ideas. I rarely get bad ideas, just some are not feasible or sellable. Not saying that your isn't, just saying... 

Ya know we do not have a single Davinci left? Rarely come acrosss a TR or anything. But I have a pair of D'Artagnans in my office hidden! It's weird, onve we close out an amp, a year later people are willing to pay top dollar for them.


----------



## Grizz Archer

db-r said:


> Haha, maybe you don't know who I am, but I have seen it, ALL OF IT. You couldn't tell me anything I don't already know.
> 
> China's amplifiers at least 95% of them = FAIL
> 
> Korean amplfiers only about 50% of them = FAIL
> 
> Yes if you approve a crappy design from their "ready made engineering teams since you know NOTHING about amps" then YOU are FAIL.
> 
> I am disgusted by the people here that are attempting to make it seem like you should just accept the CRAP that comes from China as an "okay" amplifier. They are not. The circuit boards are the cheapest crap on the planet and everything is installed crooked, with all various lead lengths, 1 part leaning this way, the other leaning that way, some not connected at all, yet the factories still let that piss poor crap pass QC. Unfreaking believeable. I know I work on all kinds of modern amplifiers everyday.
> 
> I respect the old stuff for what it is, granted new stuff will outperform almost any older amplifier. The real problem I have with it is the corners that are cut, for a few pennies difference in cost, that COULD make the amplifiers much better, but greedy bastards (investment groups) that really don't give a **** about their products, just the bottom line, won't let it happen so they can buy a new BAJA boat or YACHT or a new Lambo that year, etc... Screw those people, they are not looking out for your (consumer) best interest. This whole idea makes me sick inside.
> 
> Hire a real engineer (I am not one, but envisonelec seems like he is) design and build a decent US made amp with US made components and sell it for $4K for 500-1000 super clean, super rugged, badass watts and it WILL work, some people will buy it and you will stay in business if you eep your company small, concentrate on your product, not other BS like company cars, boats, planes, WTFever, etc.
> 
> If you want low end garbage to make $$$,$$$,$$$ profit for 2011 then just go buy more garbage amplifiers from China and sell them at Flea Markets, seems to be what Car Audio has REALLY come down to these days. And go down in history books as FAIL.


Ok, so I want you toknow that I read your post carefully. And after quick consideration, I decided I have no reason to reply. But thanx for your input . I'll star making a tons of those $4k amps right away since they'll be a hot seller.


----------



## Delsole

Maybe its just me but theirs something about the power class that's just not clicking. It seems Like a lost cause, it never struck gold and it doesn't seem like it ever will. I see ppi selling more of the power class with a Different name. I Also think that with another mid range amp from ppi that people consider ok is just gonna be a waste of time. They just need an amp to knock everyones socks off. Maybe now is not the time and a couple year later will be but i think it might do good.


----------



## Grizz Archer

envisionelec said:


> I guess I have to get more aggressive or bash Epsilon to be noticed.
> 
> Unfortunately, that's not my style.
> 
> Although I have a 240W design that you can fit into four cigarette packs abreast; I'm too late as the "mini" amps have already hit the market. It's just another Class D variation (sigma-delta, self oscillating design) with a synchronized SMPS.
> 
> I dunno - I just wouldn't consider it an "ART" replacement. I wouldn't buy it if it was!
> 
> I'd give my left arm and my right buttock (so I'm balanced ) to collaborate on a redesign. You guys at Epsilon are plenty competent to do the work, so I don't think there's much I could add, but I'd sure like to try. I won't be disappointed if you laugh - I understand.
> 
> I think it's great that Epsilon has purchased PPI given the dedication that Grizz has shown to keeping this forum in the loop. He could have just said "Screw This!" a month ago and gone on. Keep it civil, or he just might!
> 
> I'm not just another opportunistic fan boi. The influx of cheap goods made us spoiled. Everyone likes a good deal, but now people demand exceptional quality for next to nothing, year over year while companies demand double digit growth at the same rate.
> The surviving companies have learned that people want their amps to match their personality or clothing designers more than caring about sound quality. SEMA has become a fashion show with new extrusion designs appearing every year. The 6 people on this forum that believe the country's moral decline is partially indicated by the lack of USA made amplifiers may have other, more disturbing problems. Yes, it sucks. Nobody has all the answers. We wouldn't be human if we did.
> 
> And another thing. Handmade stuff _is_ less reliable. You forget to realize that the product has to be made first - and making something by hand is proven to be more wasteful than machine-made. Humans get tired and make mistakes and their products need rework. A lot. SMD parts are placed into a precisely screened bed of solder paste at a rate of 6-10 per second. Toroids are placed by hand. The transistors go in a jig and the whole board goes through wave soldering. Boards are assembled by hand into heatsinks. Operators use torque controlled drivers to secure the fasteners. Some forget to tighten all of them - someone has to check this.
> 
> My first products were handmade. What a *****. The callbacks on in-field failures ensured that I'd never do that again! Oh sure, I could ignore my customers - but I took the hit to learn something, damnit.
> 
> envisionelec


I noticed!  I'll take constructive criticism all day long. I love opinions THAT have a reason behind them. But I have lost interest in this thread. Once I get through it tonight, somebody willneed to tell me if anything, like your posts, are worth coming back to read. Maybe even something suggestions like this thread was supposed to be about. Most of this now belongs on another forum. I only come on this one for a reason and it was to get away from the childish crap.

I am interested in talking with you. But now is not a good time for me unless you are local and like microbrews. Then I'll MAKE TIME!!  Keep bugging me man...


----------



## rexroadj

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> Whoa man! I was not mocking you. Sorry if you took it that way. I'm a littel twisted right now with a death and stroke in the family. My concentration is pretty poor without added stress. Anyway, You know I am about about ideas. I rarely get bad ideas, just some are not feasible or sellable. Not saying that your isn't, just saying...
> 
> Ya know we do not have a single Davinci left? Rarely come acrosss a TR or anything. But I have a pair of D'Artagnans in my office hidden! It's weird, onve we close out an amp, a year later people are willing to pay top dollar for them.


Sorry for your loss 
Clearly I took your post about my original idea wrong...no worries! 
I always liked the D'artagnans I just think they were a little to ahead of shedule. I dont think multi-channel media was as big and common then as it is now. 
Davinci's, TR's, HR's, etc....were just insane pieces.... goes to further prove the point that there is not a market for super duper high end anymore.


----------



## fertigaudio

Grizz Archer said:


> Got about 30+ names and about 8 drawings. I can tell you this - there is one that I love! We have made a couple of timeline decisions. The Art boards will be to expensive for todays market. But we need something between Sedona and PC so we are finish the details on a new series with different board in a goo dprice point we are missing. That means the series I wanted will probably be a 2012 release or late next year, giving me time to scream and beg until I get my way. We'll see how that works our for me...
> So I can take submissions for awhile still...


I am very glad you have found one that you are really excited about. Cant wait to see what comes of it...

After reading this forum; I have learned there are so many other aspects of engineering that needs to be considered: IMD needs to be considered but rarely published, things like dampening factor and THD are useless unless very out of hand, not the case in almost all major amp manufacturers so they are pointless as a reason to buy an amp over another. The word commodity, while speaking of the basic output function of an amp, fits perfectly. Additional options and features aside of course. 

There are a lot of gifted people on here and its so hard to tell which ones are legit unless you go find out, about the engineering of a product, for yourself. Threads are sometimes hard to disect unless you have been in the industry for a while and I now understand while more "intuitive" people come to this forum over another.

After looking into amps that have been auditioned and not just checking the specs, I have narrowed it down to three brands. There are two brands I have dealer access to, out of all those brands. One of them is way overpriced for what you get. For the price point and features it has to be the PC line. I am going to be going with these for personal use and cant wait to audition them for myself. 
I have already sent you (Grizz) an email, just waiting for the amp to be available to distributors. The Power class is worth taking a longer, deeper look. There has been so much talk about Art and new amps that after searching more for the personal views of people using the PC I am hooked. Any other amp for SQ and/or better performance is a waste of money, if viewing said amps as commodities. (personal view before someone gets all worked up).

Good luck Grizz, I will be in contact with you through emails due to your last post.


----------



## BP1Fanatic

PPI_GUY said:


> Sounds like the best you could do with the time table in front of you.
> When you are screaming and begging, use the following words...
> 
> *Pro*fessional *Mos*fet, high current, military spec, competition grade.
> 
> LOL!


I was waiting for someone to bring up Pro Mos in this thread :laugh:


----------



## Grizz Archer

db-r said:


> If you really like them (Epsilon). Just freaking pray that they actually read the stuff posted here and take it into consideration and are not just here to get some catchy idea for free that they can make more $$$,$$$ from. I wonder about companies, especially "investment groups" anytime they ask the public for help with a product. They make you feel like they want you involved then they just take a catchy idea they got for free and run with it and ignore all the other stuff/gripes/complaints/complements etc that you posted in their thread.....
> 
> Epsilon: Make it BETTER. READ what we are saying here, please. PPI already has the name drug through the mud IMO, so good luck, just don't make it worse than it already is/has been recently. Maybe we will start accepting them for repair again here...


Did you this I was not here or not listening? The is the sole reason why I am here. But I have to be realistic. I take almost everything into consideration. Then I make my decision and present it to the owners - normal business practice. I am not foolish enough to humiliate myself by going into a meeting and saying, "well guys, we're blowing it. We really need to make everything in the USA because Asia is not worthy for no apparent reason." I have received alot of feedback on here that I find helpful. In fact, I actually changed my mind on a product direction because of some good feedback.


----------



## PPI_GUY

BP1Fanatic said:


> I was waiting for someone to bring up Pro Mos in this thread :laugh:


Hey, I know it won't happen but, I can dream, right?


----------



## Grizz Archer

putergod said:


> All of Soundstream. I don’t know who ALL you own, but the only one you have that I care about (well up until you bought PPI, but DEI had already destroyed them) is Soundstream.
> 
> 
> Wow… that’s funny. The problem has nothing to do with features, technology, or specs (well, specs somewhat, yes). The problem is BUILD QUALITY. And it SUCKS ASS and has since they first got shipped to China.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I never said Ford was handmade, or even made in America anymore for that matter. I said I was QUOTING THEM. That was a slogan they used to use… BTW, the BEST cars in the world are handmade… just thought I’d throw that tidbit out there.
> 
> Also, I USED to think that there were a lot of knowledgeable people on here, but now I’m not so sure. And if people choose to use garbage because it's cheap, then so be it. If they find that insulting, then maybe they need to start thinking about taking the titty out of their mouths and becoming an adult. I frankly dont give a flip if the truth hurts their epeen. Chinese built amps are junk, PERIOD. EVER SINGLE SOLITARY ONE!
> 
> If Epsilon wasn't so dang greedy, they would bring SOME manufacturing back to the "US Sweatshops" as you put it, even though that's really funny. It's no secret how things operate in China, and to pretend it's not true just to justify your exsistence, is naive and childish. My suggestion: Bring the high end Soundstream and PPI products BACK to the states; BACK to being handmade, and even price them back where they used to be, for that quality. I'd also be more impressed if you brought back some of the original engineers for those particular products as well. Keep making the low end junk in China.. it fattens the wallet. But if you don't want us, at least me anyway, to always consider your products as garbage, then do something about it.
> 
> You also asked in another post which amps I use now, and which Epsilon SS amp I have… even though I already posted all of that info, I’ll sum it up here for you: the quality amps I currently have and use are US Amps (only the US Made ones) and Soundstream (before any buyout happened). The unit that blew crappily was the EGA4120.


Ok, so by "so many", you mean just Soundstream Got it.

We do not ship tp China, they ship here.

Again, about handmade... You apparently seem to be one of the only peopl that does not understand that technology advances. Are smarter than a computer? More accurate? Error free? Faster? We are not taliking about fine furniture here. You prefer some sort of American sweatshop making boards over state of the art computer-controlled insertions machins and testing devices?! Do you have a floorless vehicle and drive it like Fred Flintstone so you can brag that did it with "human power" rather than embrace technology like an engine? 

I've been on other forums and without a doubt, this is a higher level of forum. If you think everybody is an idiot on here, then split and go hangout with God if he is up to your level. Oh crap! Your right! Alright everybody, let's all become adults so we can become worthy. Really man? Really?

Now you really have proven thaty you know nothing about our company. Greedy. Are we the most expensive manufacturer? Are we even close? NO! I foguth with the owner to get them to make the Reference amps cost 20% more. The price is way too cheap for the performance. But I klost the argument and they were right. I was wrong. If you knew anything about our company, anything whatsoever, you could not make most of the statements you make. make SS and PPI and at the original prices? We could not train monkeys to do it here for that cheap. Think 4x the cost! Something abiout engineers - many have a method to their madness and they embrace it wholeheartedly. Some are reluctant to change. Part of advancing technology is bring in new fresh minds. But since you have no idea who our engineers are, you are backside talkingonce again. Actually, no, I do not want you to buy our products, so PLEASE don't!

But hey, yoy got me. You got me to waste more time when I have way too much to do. When you convert the rest of DIYMA to be your desciples, I will then listen again with an open mind incase I missed something incredibly important besides "Chinese built amps are junk, PERIOD. EVER SINGLE SOLITARY ONE!"

Unfreakingbelievable...


----------



## Grizz Archer

db-r said:


> This has given me endless LOLZ. Sorry guys, now I see why you come here instead of the other much more popular forums for help with your products. With statements like that, defending Chinese made junk, people on all the other forums would send you home with your tail between your legs... If you do decide to do so, let me know first so I can go watch what happens, LOL...


Hey Genius, invent a way to leave the forum! Didn't anybody tell you that every one of us is an idiot? Yup, not a single brain cell on the entire forum. All the brainiacs are on the other fourms. Go see if they want to come out and play...


----------



## Grizz Archer

db-r said:


> Would also like to pat myself on the back a little bit. Some of the good, big popular Korean factories have actually TAKEN the advice I have given them on some newer model amplifiers and they so far have had the lowest return rate I have EVER seen. So yeah, I may not be an engineer, but the things I see breaking, I know how to fix, and if dumphucks would just listen to me, they'd be WAYYY better off, but they insist they know more than I do about what I do everyday, so oh well....


Trying to get my breath back! Dude, that was the one of the funniest things I have seen on this forum and at the perfect time. Patting yourself ont he back?! That's freaking hilarious. You go boy! Glad all the dumbass engineers are "actually TAKEN the advice I have given them". Holy crap. Everybody in my office is wondering why I have tears of laughter. This is great!

So let me get this straight... Your job is to collect data on all warranties that SOME, not just one or two, Korean Factories have on amplifer that they took your advice on?! I feel dirty just for saying that. Sorry man, I had no idea that I was in the presence of genuis who does engineering for m,ultiple Korean factories. Do they have American working there? Or special machines that or work with Korean power?

Man, you just made my day! Cannot thank you enough! Gotta go pee though!


----------



## Grizz Archer

DIYMA said:


> Please keep this thread on topic guys. You can start another China/Korea/USA debate in another thread if you wish.
> 
> ANT


Thanx Ant!! What a brilliant idea!


----------



## Grizz Archer

db-r said:


> This thread is fail. I won't be back. Made my point.


Promise? Part at my house at the beach. BYOB!


----------



## Grizz Archer

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



rexroadj said:


> Sorry for your loss
> Clearly I took your post about my original idea wrong...no worries!
> I always liked the D'artagnans I just think they were a little to ahead of shedule. I dont think multi-channel media was as big and common then as it is now.
> Davinci's, TR's, HR's, etc....were just insane pieces.... goes to further prove the point that there is not a market for super duper high end anymore.


It's all good bro. Maybe not a marker for high end, but there are definitle audio buffs that want them. But if 500 people want them, and more than half will not pay for them, then all you end up with is a great test report and then it is time to close them out...


----------



## Grizz Archer

BP1Fanatic said:


> I was waiting for someone to bring up Pro Mos in this thread :laugh:


Maaaaaan! Don't get it started! I would kill for a small ProMos line...


----------



## ryan s

Anything in it for the winner (if someone from DIYMA has a heat sink made, that is)? Can they keep the copyright to the design and Epsilon pays for its use, a la CHY and the original Arts?


----------



## ChrisB

No offense, but I don't know if the current market could sustain high current class a/b amplifiers like it once did. 

Think about it... How many current SPL competitors run high current class a/b amplifiers? How many current SQ competitors run class a/b amplifiers at low impedances? 

The market is even further evolving with certain Brazilian amplifier manufacturers kicking out high voltage class D amplifiers.


----------



## Grizz Archer

ryan s said:


> Anything in it for the winner (if someone from DIYMA has a heat sink made, that is)? Can they keep the copyright to the design and Epsilon pays for its use, a la CHY and the original Arts?


Yes, there will be a prize. We will not use a design exactly as it comes more then likely. We will have to tune it. More than anything I am looking for new designs, maybe something fresh and unique, etc... NO ARTs!


----------



## ryan s

Grizz Archer said:


> Yes, there will be a prize. We will not use a design exactly as it comes more then likely. We will have to tune it. More than anything I am looking for new designs, maybe something fresh and unique, etc... NO ARTs!


I'm just wondering since it seems like...if a design is chosen and finalized and used...it would be a small consolation to the winner to get "an amp" or whathaveyou when compared to the sales volume it would be sold in.

I have some ideas but my PS skills are limited to altering photos and my SketchUp skills are passable, at best  Like already mentioned here or somewhere, the "Cu" name would be _sweet_. Cu5.1000 amp powering a Cu65.3 component set (6.5" 3 way) and a Cu15.4 sub (15" dual 4)...I like that ring, personally.


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

ryan s said:


> Anything in it for the winner (if someone from DIYMA has a heat sink made, that is)? Can they keep the copyright to the design and Epsilon pays for its use, a la CHY and the original Arts?


Just for some clarity, dear Ryan, I did a tad more than just design the heat sink and cosmetics for an amp. 
xxoo chy


----------



## fertigaudio

ryan s said:


> I'm just wondering since it seems like...if a design is chosen and finalized and used...it would be a small consolation to the winner to get "an amp" or whathaveyou when compared to the sales volume it would be sold in.
> 
> I have some ideas but my PS skills are limited to altering photos and my SketchUp skills are passable, at best  Like already mentioned here or somewhere, the "Cu" name would be _sweet_. Cu5.1000 amp powering a Cu65.3 component set (6.5" 3 way) and a Cu15.4 sub (15" dual 4)...I like that ring, personally.


I had already sent that idea to him, check the beginning of this thread where I posted pics of the sketchup amp.  Post 51.


----------



## ryan s

Carolyn Hall Young said:


> Just for some clarity, dear Ryan, I did a tad more than just design the heat sink and cosmetics for an amp.
> xxoo chy


Oh, by no means was I trying to "downplay" your work! :blush: I've been following the situation but felt no need to interject. I was just speaking about the heat sinks themselves since DIYMA members are getting a shot at designing those only. 

For the sake of clarification (and simplicity) I left a little too much out of that post :laugh:


fertigaudio said:


> I had already sent that idea to him, check the beginning of this thread where I posted pics of the sketchup amp.


Ahhh, it's in here then. I really like the Cu name since Grizz is sticking with the black n copper theme. Anything else would have to resemble an older series IF they were to share names...IMO.


----------



## fertigaudio

ryan s said:


> Ahhh, it's in here then. I really like the Cu name since Grizz is sticking with the black n copper theme. Anything else would have to resemble an older series IF they were to share names...IMO.


I do too! I too agree that the Cu and copper theme should continue but I can wait for the new amp. I am getting the PC when I get home, after checking into it I have to try one.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz Archer said:


> Maaaaaan! Don't get it started! I would kill for a small ProMos line...


If necessary, I can play the role of the red suited guy with a pitchfork on your shoulder saying "do it...do it...DO IT!!!"


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

ryan s said:


> Oh, by no means was I trying to "downplay" your work! :blush: I've been following the situation but felt no need to interject. I was just speaking about the heat sinks themselves since DIYMA members are getting a shot at designing those only.
> 
> For the sake of clarification (and simplicity) I left a little too much out of that post :laugh:
> 
> Ahhh, it's in here then. I really like the Cu name since Grizz is sticking with the black n copper theme. Anything else would have to resemble an older series IF they were to share names...IMO.


Dear Ryan,

No offense taken. 

I was referring to a deeper involvement in the development of the companies and products, for which designing the more well known/glory filled projects were the smallest part, and the most fun. But, they were only the tip of the iceberg. 

Some people thought I had made gobs of money from my work in the industry. Although, I have never tallied the hours and money invested, I'm pretty sure that I would have been better off working for minimum wage. 

People should be well compensated for their creative efforts, and intellectual property -- what ever form it takes. "Winning" a design competition should not be like "winning" on eBay. It should be rewarded, up front payments, royalties per amp, whatever. It just has to be fair for both parties.

You might want to look into intellectual property attorneys...

xxoo chy


----------



## BP1Fanatic

PPI_GUY said:


> Hey, I know it won't happen but, I can dream, right?


Yes you can :thumbsup:


----------



## PPI_GUY

Grizz, out of curiosity, would a limited edition run of modern Pro Mos type amps be so financially unrealistic from a sales/profit standpoint that they will never receive serious consideration? 
I started a thread about low power systems and a couple of people mentioned that they are still running some high current amps in their setups. I personally run two Pro Mos 50's in my daily driven pickup. I know someone out there is still using Orion HCCA stuff because it still sells at online auction regularly. 
Of course, I know high current designs were originally meant to be 'cheaters' in the world of car audio competition. But, along with the ability to handle low impedance loads and make huge amounts of power, came the added benefits of high quality sound reproduction, rugged reliability and the 'elite' status that ownership brought to their owners at that time. I remember drueling over the Pro Mos ad's until I could finally afford one of them. The Pro Art's carried on that tradition nicely.

If it were feasible to do so, I would envision a small lineup of new, truly world class high current designs. 2x12.5 watts, 2x25 watts, 2x50 watts and maybe a 4x50 watt version. If you wanted to go even further, you might consider a high voltage D class amp AND a high current A/B in the same chassis! Think along the lines of the old Orion Concept 97.1except maybe as a 3 channel amp?

Just dreaming.


----------



## BP1Fanatic

ChrisB said:


> No offense, but I don't know if the current market could sustain high current class a/b amplifiers like it once did.
> 
> Think about it... How many current SPL competitors run high current class a/b amplifiers? How many current SQ competitors run class a/b amplifiers at low impedances?
> 
> The market is even further evolving with certain Brazilian amplifier manufacturers kicking out high voltage class D amplifiers.


I don't compete, but I do run a high current class a/b amplifer in my truck, Boston Acoustics GT-42. It's buried under the box in my avatar.


----------



## envisionelec

PPI_GUY said:


> Grizz, out of curiosity, would a limited edition run of modern Pro Mos type amps be so financially unrealistic from a sales/profit standpoint that they will never receive serious consideration?
> I started a thread about low power systems and a couple of people mentioned that they are still running some high current amps in their setups. I personally run two Pro Mos 50's in my daily driven pickup. I know someone out there is still using Orion HCCA stuff because it still sells at online auction regularly.
> Of course, I know high current designs were originally meant to be 'cheaters' in the world of car audio competition. But, along with the ability to handle low impedance loads and make huge amounts of power, came the added benefits of high quality sound reproduction, rugged reliability and the 'elite' status that ownership brought to their owners at that time. I remember drueling over the Pro Mos ad's until I could finally afford one of them. The Pro Art's carried on that tradition nicely.
> 
> If it were feasible to do so, I would envision a small lineup of new, truly world class high current designs. 2x12.5 watts, 2x25 watts, 2x50 watts and maybe a 4x50 watt version. If you wanted to go even further, you might consider a high voltage D class amp AND a high current A/B in the same chassis! Think along the lines of the old Orion Concept 97.1except maybe as a 3 channel amp?
> 
> Just dreaming.


The whole cheater class came during the peak of the competitions. That's all gone now. A cheater amp is not much more than a high voltage, low current design driven by a low voltage, high current power supply (same SOA). A couple component value changes are all that's required to make your 600W @ 4 ohm amplifier a 150W @ 4 ohm, 600W @ 1 ohm amplifier.

Marketing. The ProMOS had a great name though.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Thanks for the info envisionelec. That explains why I have seen Pro Mos 50 amps using 2150 boards!
Would you say that those Pro Mos amps(and other 'cheater' versions from various manufacturers) were overbuilt or simply so much better built than many competitors that they only _seemed_ like a step up from the basic amps everyone was offering at the time? 
I guess I am asking if there was a significant difference (i.e. "better") in the parts used on say a Pro Mos versus the A/AM series or a Pro Art versus the regular Art series amps?

I understand that after the need for cheater amps went away, so did the availability of high current amps. Although, a few are still available today, the market seems to have shifted (perhaps rightly so) to a focus on Class D. But, as I said before _someone_ still uses high current or the bottom would have fallen out of the used market.


----------



## envisionelec

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



DS-21 said:


> the Ubuy-made Eton MA75.4)


Dammit. Well, that was almost exactly my design for the littlest amp on the planet. I may as well just close up shop now. :mean:


----------



## envisionelec

Here's my offering. I didn't spend a lot of time on it, so please be nice. I'm not an artist... It is copper and black with a single aluminum-color accent strip. 


YouTube - PPI-envisionelec.avi


----------



## envisionelec

PPI_GUY said:


> Thanks for the info envisionelec. That explains why I have seen Pro Mos 50 amps using 2150 boards!
> Would you say that those Pro Mos amps(and other 'cheater' versions from various manufacturers) were overbuilt or simply so much better built than many competitors that they only _seemed_ like a step up from the basic amps everyone was offering at the time?
> I guess I am asking if there was a significant difference (i.e. "better") in the parts used on say a Pro Mos versus the A/AM series or a Pro Art versus the regular Art series amps?
> 
> I understand that after the need for cheater amps went away, so did the availability of high current amps. Although, a few are still available today, the market seems to have shifted (perhaps rightly so) to a focus on Class D. But, as I said before _someone_ still uses high current or the bottom would have fallen out of the used market.


No, the parts are probably identical. You buy a ProMOS, you're getting an AM with a different toroid, different VI-limiter setpoints. The value is in the rating, not "better parts". This is why it's a moot point these days, the competition rules have changed...


----------



## rexroadj

envisionelec said:


> Here's my offering. I didn't spend a lot of time on it, so please be nice. I'm not an artist... It is copper and black with a single aluminum-color accent strip.
> 
> 
> YouTube - PPI-envisionelec.avi


Nice...simply stated! It does look a lot like the old ss EGA amps (all silver in color but very nice and simple looking) in shape/style.

I say copy that Eton amp to a T as far as style! What a nice looking amp! make it 125x4 or more and sign me up! Nice piano black finish and copper logo/accents
call it a day! can we call them Dcell? if they are class d? Or is that to much like duracell?


----------



## envisionelec

I edited this post until there was nothing of value left. Move along....move along.


----------



## truckerfte

ryan s said:


> Anything in it for the winner (if someone from DIYMA has a heat sink made, that is)? Can they keep the copyright to the design and Epsilon pays for its use, a la CHY and the original Arts?


Im gonna go out on a limb here and say you will get a prize, but no way in hell would you retain the rights, even if they happened to use the winner's design completely.

I imagine the whole point of the excersise this time is for the parent company to own the name this time. So in 20 years, when they are ready to bring back the COPPER line, we don't have to go through this again. They get the name, you get a couple of cool amps you designed as payment in full. If that isn't good enough for someone, they prolly shouldn't participate. 



As far as the amps go, im still likeing my idea of just calling it COPPER. Its simple, powerful, easy to say. The latin version may be cool to the esoteric amp lover types, but they gotta sell a lot of these. Some might be overthinking the process a bit too much. And im not really digging the sugguested nomenclature either. The Cuxxx.x, or x.xxx, is a little too old-school. Times are different. Why not just a single number designation? COPPER 1, COPPER 2, ect. i mean how many different amps are we talking about here anyway? im guessing just a few, maybe a small and large 2 channel, small and large 4 channel, maybe a couple of mono sub amps, and perhaps a(please?) staggered multi channel unit? it wouldnt be so many that it would be hard to keep track of....

one of you guys posted a sketch that i really liked, but im too tired to go hunt for it right now


----------



## n_olympios

There's the TRU copper series though...


----------



## rexroadj

envisionelec said:


> I just finished reading the owner's manual after reading the www.precisionpower.com website about the POWERCLASS amplifiers.
> 
> The website first insults me by stating that,_ "Anybody who thinks that quality was lost when the old school products died is *foolishly mistaken!*" _
> 
> Really?! No, we're not mistaken, your company's wise-ass comments are self-evident of the mentality of the company and its lax attitude. If you can't be professional in your literature, how can I expect you to sell a professional product? Good grief!_Extra Low Current Drive Stage Increases Efficiency & Sound Clarity_​*Really.* What sound clarity is improved by an output stage (you know...the current-amplifying one) that is current starved out of conduction? Oh yeah, the crossover distortion part. _Separated Capacitor Charging/Discharging Current Paths Prevent Rail Switching Spikes & Ground Traces from Entering Signal Stages Resulting in Distortion_​How did you manage to separate the charge and discharge paths? I'm genuinely interested in this clear violation of physics! ..it goes on._...balanced line inputs to be used with our BLT...._​What the hell is a BLT? _I_ know what it is, but there is zero explanation for why a Bacon Lettuce and Tomato sandwich is used on your balanced inputs. A hyperlink would be awesome."Unparalleled sound quality stems from...all N-Channel Transistors". ​Oh really? When did the outputs become Quasi-Complementary MosFET? They didn't. The manual states that the outputs are Triple Darlington. That's a bipolar output stage. N-Channel "Transistors" are N-Channel MosFETS in the power supply. Woo!
> 
> Speaking of which: The manual is easily one of the most poorly worded and casually written documents I've ever had the displeasure to read. The manual is a poor reflection on the company's flagship amplifier line. I'm very disappointed! Not only would _I_ not buy the products, I'd recommend others to do the same. Besides, what kind of service after the sale can be expected if I think a high-school student was allowed to write the copy!?  It isn't funny like the old AudioControl manuals were written - it's sophomoric. Or moronic.
> 
> This is a systemic problem. I don't think I'll be participating in this thread any longer. I'm thoroughly convinced the effort will be lost on those that need the most help.


Ok....You of course can choose what ever you like about participating or not.
BUT you need to realize a few little things before you go off about some of the things you did. I realize you just hopped in on this thread and probably missed the other 43 or so pages prior to them moving parts of it here to start a new more focused thread. No one can blame you there....its 40+ pages of god knows what. However some of the things you have brought up were already covered and acknowledged. 
For example: You refer to the BLT and how its pretty crappy there is no link for it from the page in which its mentioned. Well its already been said that the website is barely a work in progress and WAY better then it was a month ago. Things take time and people need to remember how easy it is to nit pick every little thing from the cheap seats. Although for the record I dont see that as being a big deal at all..... Its on there accessories list!
You seem to be VERY pissed about some of there phrases used and descriptions....Well here is where people such as yourself and MANY others get angry. It is VERY clear you know your electronics, as do several others on here and probably do so for a living. Well I am sure you are very talented at your craft but someone needs to sell these things. That is where marketing comes in. Its necessary and does not always paint the picture that the person developing the product would want. Well just as you know the electronics...Marketers know how to sell, you have to draw the line somewhere. You are a select few that would know the difference, we here as a whole make up less then 1% of the market as it is. 

Now on to the manual....Yes I agree, I bought the 3way set and it does not once talk about any of the drivers individualy, not one dimension etc...It talks about there technology and thats about it. Not very helpful, no mounting info...nothing. It was a little bit of a let down. Not in there defense because I feel like if it has been released it should have been dealt with....But they had a year to get a new line out and some sacrafices had to be made. I really think people tend to miss the big picture and that is this (my opinion of course) Its a HUGE company, they are in it to make money not a damn thing less. Despite what some might think, thats no different then any other company out there. They have dead lines and tons of projects to be done. They had a year to come out with a new line. Of course its not going to be perfect. Is the website lacking....of course, they have been very open about it and have said they are working on it. The manuals....I have no idea? They, like every other company are going to use marketing to sell. Thats life! I am not saying what you said is incorrect but you need to be able to separate the facts that you know and how the marketing group needs to put things in order to sell. 
I am not attacking you or arguing with your knowledge on the make up of an amp, THAT MUCH I promise! I am simply discussing the other side, which love it or leave it....it exists and needs to for them to survive. 
Things take time.


----------



## envisionelec

rexroadj said:


> I am not saying what you said is incorrect but you need to be able to separate the facts that you know and how the marketing group needs to put things in order to sell.
> I am not attacking you or arguing with your knowledge on the make up of an amp, THAT MUCH I promise! I am simply discussing the other side, which love it or leave it....it exists and needs to for them to survive.
> Things take time.



OK, OK. I'll concede the point about the website. I have zero problem with marketing. I'm not an engineer that can't get out once and a while to see what it takes to sell things, _BUT._..I feel strongly that the manual should be written more professionally. The type of language used there should be relegated to the bottom-end, not the high-class image they want to promote. 

I'm not VERY pissed about anything. However, I am amazed that this type of copy was approved and published.

Maybe _I'm_ old school. 
Maybe _I_ took my college communications classes _too seriously_. 
After all, I learned that it's _proper communication_ that educates. 

Let me put this a different way: My experience and education gives me insight into how other people understand an owner's manual. The writers need to be specific and straightforward. Making the customer feel stupid is not the job of the owner's manual. Like the old adage says, "If you can't say something nice don't say it at all." Incidentally, I have a problem following this adage on forums. Please don't shoot! :blush:

That is all I am going to address on the subject. I'll edit the post to remove my proclamation of dismissal.

envisionelec


----------



## envisionelec

n_olympios said:


> There's the TRU copper series though...


And Ultimate (remember them?) had the Cupric line.


----------



## putergod

envisionelec said:


> OK, OK. I'll concede the point about the website. I have zero problem with marketing. I'm not an engineer that can't get out once and a while to see what it takes to sell things, _BUT._..I feel strongly that the manual should be written more professionally. The type of language used there should be relegated to the bottom-end, not the high-class image they want to promote.
> 
> I'm not VERY pissed about anything. However, I am amazed that this type of copy was approved and published.
> 
> Maybe _I'm_ old school.
> Maybe _I_ took my college communications classes _too seriously_.
> After all, I learned that it's _proper communication_ that educates.
> 
> Let me put this a different way: My experience and education gives me insight into how other people understand an owner's manual. The writers need to be specific and straightforward. Making the customer feel stupid is not the job of the owner's manual. Like the old adage says, "If you can't say something nice don't say it at all." Incidentally, I have a problem following this adage on forums. Please don't shoot! :blush:
> 
> That is all I am going to address on the subject. I'll edit the post to remove my proclamation of dismissal.
> 
> envisionelec


They are just trying to make the ignorant believe that they are of the same echelon as companies such as Audio Control, and the original PPI.
"If we can make it 'sound' cool enough, maybe they will believe we're just as good as the truly 'cool' companies!"


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> Grizz, out of curiosity, would a limited edition run of modern Pro Mos type amps be so financially unrealistic from a sales/profit standpoint that they will never receive serious consideration?
> I started a thread about low power systems and a couple of people mentioned that they are still running some high current amps in their setups. I personally run two Pro Mos 50's in my daily driven pickup. I know someone out there is still using Orion HCCA stuff because it still sells at online auction regularly.
> Of course, I know high current designs were originally meant to be 'cheaters' in the world of car audio competition. But, along with the ability to handle low impedance loads and make huge amounts of power, came the added benefits of high quality sound reproduction, rugged reliability and the 'elite' status that ownership brought to their owners at that time. I remember drueling over the Pro Mos ad's until I could finally afford one of them. The Pro Art's carried on that tradition nicely.
> 
> If it were feasible to do so, I would envision a small lineup of new, truly world class high current designs. 2x12.5 watts, 2x25 watts, 2x50 watts and maybe a 4x50 watt version. If you wanted to go even further, you might consider a high voltage D class amp AND a high current A/B in the same chassis! Think along the lines of the old Orion Concept 97.1except maybe as a 3 channel amp?
> 
> Just dreaming.


Yes, they will never receive any consideration. Actually I should never say never. But until I have 1000 pieces pre-ordered with down payments, i would not even bother to push it and just get upset when they say no...

High current AB just won't sell. More than anything, I have guys beggin me for 2x500-2x1000 AB amps - mostly the guys using pro audiuo and bass racing. Same with 4 channels. 4x50 is not a huge seller. 4x75 does well, 4x100 does fine too, but guys want 4x250+. That, we can sell all day long. The concept 97 was the most outlandish amp ever. It was so deliberately saying screw rules, I can break them all. The sarcastic side of me thought they hit a home run with that one! In all honesty, I am leaning towards a fullrange class D. In fact, I denied a series of amps 3 years ago because I was not sure how popular these mini amps would get. I have 5 and they are even small enough for DS-21!  They measure 5.5" wide and 2.5" high. 600wrms mono 7.25" long. 4x75 10.125" long. I am going to revisit these amps for a mid 2011 - CES 2012 project.


----------



## Grizz Archer

envisionelec said:


> The whole cheater class came during the peak of the competitions. That's all gone now. A cheater amp is not much more than a high voltage, low current design driven by a low voltage, high current power supply (same SOA). A couple component value changes are all that's required to make your 600W @ 4 ohm amplifier a 150W @ 4 ohm, 600W @ 1 ohm amplifier.
> 
> Marketing. The ProMOS had a great name though.


EXACTLY! Glad you said that. these cheater amps are nothing better than what we have today. Any amp can be changed fairly easy. But seriously. How many people are goign to run 1 ohm or 1/2 ohm loads. So many speakers and by then you end up with less power per drivers anyway. If it was a good idea to release it, like a Pro Mos, I'd be all over it...


----------



## Grizz Archer

envisionelec said:


> Here's my offering. I didn't spend a lot of time on it, so please be nice. I'm not an artist... It is copper and black with a single aluminum-color accent strip.
> 
> 
> YouTube - PPI-envisionelec.avi


Please email to me...


----------



## douggiestyle

IMHO, a good way to pay tribute to the arts series would be to put out a line of amps with a partially paint-able surface. "Art" is meant to inspire originality, not be copied over and over again or "remixed" or "retroed" without advancement.

Using envisionic's example above, the top panel between the two black bars could be paint-able. I'd be concerned about the thermal properties related to heat and certain paints, but the applications could be limitless. It could be classy in the right install, provide quick customization if included with stencils (how cool would it be to have your amps monogramed?), and if different sorts of paint can be used, it could really "pop" in show installs with black lights, etc. I think a good way to get this done would be a plexi or metal insert so worse comes to worse it just takes a small part to get the amp back to normal.

the closest example i can think of is the adicolor sneakers









As for the name, I'll take a cue from Nike. How about we sidestep the whole issue and name it after the artist, and not the art? PPI CHY600.2 anyone? :-D

I hope you're not offended, Mrs. Young. It's more of a joke than anything, and hopefully a bit of flattery and good humor helps everyone get past this whole saga.


----------



## Grizz Archer

truckerfte said:


> Im gonna go out on a limb here and say you will get a prize, but no way in hell would you retain the rights, even if they happened to use the winner's design completely.
> 
> I imagine the whole point of the excersise this time is for the parent company to own the name this time. So in 20 years, when they are ready to bring back the COPPER line, we don't have to go through this again. They get the name, you get a couple of cool amps you designed as payment in full. If that isn't good enough for someone, they prolly shouldn't participate.
> 
> As far as the amps go, im still likeing my idea of just calling it COPPER. Its simple, powerful, easy to say. The latin version may be cool to the esoteric amp lover types, but they gotta sell a lot of these. Some might be overthinking the process a bit too much. And im not really digging the sugguested nomenclature either. The Cuxxx.x, or x.xxx, is a little too old-school. Times are different. Why not just a single number designation? COPPER 1, COPPER 2, ect. i mean how many different amps are we talking about here anyway? im guessing just a few, maybe a small and large 2 channel, small and large 4 channel, maybe a couple of mono sub amps, and perhaps a(please?) staggered multi channel unit? it wouldnt be so many that it would be hard to keep track of....
> 
> one of you guys posted a sketch that i really liked, but im too tired to go hunt for it right now


Yeah hunting them back down is a nightmare so I must have them emailed to me so I can keep them in the proper folder.

Anyway, it would be impossible to use somedoy's design exactly as it looks. We will be doing all new boards now so things will change. We are simply looking for ideas. Our graphics guy is badass, but has no interest in audio whatsoever. That is the whole reason why I am asking the peep that care. As for your comment about 20 years from now and the return of the copper line (pretty funny)... Not so much. By then booger green might be the hot color. Or maybe textures will be in like leather, felt, etc... Who knows? Maybe we'll have no need for amplifiers anymore, God forbid! But yeah, you nailed it. If getting product for your idea is not worth it, then you need to be patenting your artwork and trying to sell it to another company. This is pure research for me since I think this this a great forum for enthusiats that will have valuable input...


----------



## Delsole

Grizz Archer said:


> Yes, they will never receive any consideration. Actually I should never say never. But until I have 1000 pieces pre-ordered with down payments, i would not even bother to push it and just get upset when they say no...
> 
> High current AB just won't sell. More than anything, I have guys beggin me for 2x500-2x1000 AB amps - mostly the guys using pro audiuo and bass racing. Same with 4 channels. 4x50 is not a huge seller. 4x75 does well, 4x100 does fine too, but guys want 4x250+. That, we can sell all day long. The concept 97 was the most outlandish amp ever. It was so deliberately saying screw rules, I can break them all. The sarcastic side of me thought they hit a home run with that one! In all honesty, I am leaning towards a fullrange class D. In fact, I denied a series of amps 3 years ago because I was not sure how popular these mini amps would get. I have 5 and they are even small enough for DS-21!  They measure 5.5" wide and 2.5" high. 600wrms mono 7.25" long. 4x75 10.125" long. I am going to revisit these amps for a mid 2011 - CES 2012 project.


Its funny you bring pro audio in to the mix. I have noticed that the pro audio speakers have been getting more and more popular. Although some would say its stupid of me to use a good amp on pro audio speakers, That is what my project was this summer. I had used An a1200 and two a600's to power A bunch of horns and pro audio speakers. I didn't do this so i would have the best sounding system on the block but to be heard from a few blocks. It seems like the idea of wanting a crazy loud system is a little more popular right now then having an amazing sounding system with a thousand dollar set of components.

Just to throw it out there, Before i decided on using the art amps i was looking long and far for something that put out 250+ amps per channel That i could use for the higher frequencies. But to be honest i didn't have very good luck. A lot of these pro audio speakers are 8 ohm and demand a good amount of power which a lot of car audio amps just can't deal with.


----------



## AAAAAAA

IF you make amps that make equal power at different loads, make sure to include 8ohms!


----------



## Grizz Archer

Delsole said:


> Its funny you bring pro audio in to the mix. I have noticed that the pro audio speakers have been getting more and more popular. Although some would say its stupid of me to use a good amp on pro audio speakers, That is what my project was this summer. I had used An a1200 and two a600's to power A bunch of horns and pro audio speakers. I didn't do this so i would have the best sounding system on the block but to be heard from a few blocks. It seems like the idea of wanting a crazy loud system is a little more popular right now then having an amazing sounding system with a thousand dollar set of components.
> 
> Just to throw it out there, Before i decided on using the art amps i was looking long and far for something that put out 250+ amps per channel That i could use for the higher frequencies. But to be honest i didn't have very good luck. A lot of these pro audio speakers are 8 ohm and demand a good amount of power which a lot of car audio amps just can't deal with.


Exactly. We are finishing up a 2x500 beast for guys like you...


----------



## Grizz Archer

AAAAAAA said:


> IF you make amps that make equal power at different loads, make sure to include 8ohms!


I totally unders this. However, I have switched over to mostly 4 ohm pro drivers for SS and 3 ohm for PPI. This whole 8-ohm thing is stupid. There are alot of pro series products available now, but for the guy with big bass and no fiberglass pods, we needed 4 ohm or 3 ohm to get the most fullrange with a singe set of pro components. I even experimented with 2 ohm, but they did not impress me. Hard to get the coil right...


----------



## fertigaudio

Grizz Archer said:


> Exactly. We are finishing up a 2x500 beast for guys like you...


is it a variant of the PC 1000 watt amp? How is the PC1000.1 coming along?


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

douggiestyle said:


> IMHO, a good way to pay tribute to the arts series would be to put out a line of amps with a partially paint-able surface. "Art" is meant to inspire originality, not be copied over and over again or "remixed" or "retroed" without advancement.
> 
> Using envisionic's example above, the top panel between the two black bars could be paint-able. I'd be concerned about the thermal properties related to heat and certain paints, but the applications could be limitless. It could be classy in the right install, provide quick customization if included with stencils (how cool would it be to have your amps monogramed?), and if different sorts of paint can be used, it could really "pop" in show installs with black lights, etc. I think a good way to get this done would be a plexi or metal insert so worse comes to worse it just takes a small part to get the amp back to normal.
> 
> the closest example i can think of is the adicolor sneakers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the name, I'll take a cue from Nike. How about we sidestep the whole issue and name it after the artist, and not the art? PPI CHY600.2 anyone? :-D
> 
> I hope you're not offended, Mrs. Young. It's more of a joke than anything, and hopefully a bit of flattery and good humor helps everyone get past this whole saga.


No offense taken. I am flattered. Thanks -- and I love the idea of making it easy for everyone to make their own creative statement.
xxoo chy


----------



## Grizz Archer

fertigaudio said:


> is it a variant of the PC 1000 watt amp? How is the PC1000.1 coming along?


Both the PC and Ref 1000 amps came in a bit high at 1200 watts, but there was a heat issue. The circuit that allows same power at 1-2 ohms was not performing properly on the samples. Simple resister to fix the problem. Amazing that what may seem like a huge issue alwasy turns out to be a wrong value resistor. lol Production SOON!


----------



## envisionelec

Carolyn Hall Young said:


> No offense taken. I am flattered. Thanks -- and I love the idea of making it easy for everyone to make their own creative statement.
> xxoo chy


Interestingly, I have a design that has exactly that: exchangeable top panels for various art configurations. Remember those pen cups and Christmas ornaments we made as kids with the art sealed inside? Yeah, along those lines.


----------



## fertigaudio

Grizz Archer said:


> Both the PC and Ref 1000 amps came in a bit high at 1200 watts, but there was a heat issue. The circuit that allows same power at 1-2 ohms was not performing properly on the samples. Simple resister to fix the problem. Amazing that what may seem like a huge issue alwasy turns out to be a wrong value resistor. lol Production SOON!


You and Carolyn totally made my day! Thanks Carolyn for including me in your families fun. That dirt bike pic takes me back!


----------



## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> But yeah, you nailed it. If getting product for your idea is not worth it, then you need to be patenting your artwork and trying to sell it to another company. This is pure research for me since I think this this a great forum for enthusiats that will have valuable input...


What? I wouldn't get paid thousands for a stupid heatsink design?



Good Lord - I'd be thrilled if I just saw them being sold. Scratch that, I'm thrilled someone saw it. I'm easy to please.


----------



## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> Please email to me...


I left it at work. I'll send it Monday.


----------



## wdemetrius1

douggiestyle said:


> IMHO, a good way to pay tribute to the arts series would be to put out a line of amps with a partially paint-able surface. "Art" is meant to inspire originality, not be copied over and over again or "remixed" or "retroed" without advancement.
> 
> Using envisionic's example above, the top panel between the two black bars could be paint-able. I'd be concerned about the thermal properties related to heat and certain paints, but the applications could be limitless. It could be classy in the right install, provide quick customization if included with stencils (how cool would it be to have your amps monogramed?), and if different sorts of paint can be used, it could really "pop" in show installs with black lights, etc. I think a good way to get this done would be a plexi or metal insert so worse comes to worse it just takes a small part to get the amp back to normal.
> 
> the closest example i can think of is the adicolor sneakers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the name, I'll take a cue from Nike. How about we sidestep the whole issue and name it after the artist, and not the art? PPI CHY600.2 anyone? :-D
> 
> I hope you're not offended, Mrs. Young. It's more of a joke than anything, and hopefully a bit of flattery and good humor helps everyone get past this whole saga.



I couldn't agree more. :2thumbsup::2thumbsup::2thumbsup:


----------



## envisionelec

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



envisionelec said:


> Dammit. Well, that was almost exactly my design for the littlest amp on the planet. I may as well just close up shop now. :mean:



I moved a step further this weekend and gave myself a challenge to make a 100W x 2 amp fit INSIDE an external 2.5" hard drive case. You could fit two of them in your front pocket. 

Ah, there I go trashing the thread again. Snore.


----------



## trust7

PPI-ART said:


> It is now in effect *lost like tears in rain.*
> 
> PPI was once great, perhaps it can be again.
> 
> John Andreen




ROFL to the DAMN MAX, I love this guy, referencing Blade Runner in an amplifier discussion, basically excellent.


----------



## trust7

Luke352 said:


> Actually a SMD placing and soldering machine is far more accurate then any human and also does full checks on the parts it is about to fit to insure it meets or exceeds all specs and it does this in literally seconds probably less. It also acheives a much more reliable solder joint which will be of higher quality then one a human could acheive in most cases. I can guarantee there are very few companies that do this today or even many back in the day that tested all the parts prior to assembly on the board. In fact I would tend to think once the board was populated if it didn't pass a test they would have just binned a whole board as this would probably be cheaper then individually testing each component prior to fitting to the board.




Uh sorry I HAVE to step in here, that is TOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTAL HORSESHIT.

I have worked in around on near with more solder related parts and fields, cars, smds, computers, amplifiers, motorcycles, spec equipment and the like, more than I care to remember in 40 years, and Human soldering is basically LEAPS and bounds above machine soldering.

First of all machine soldering is mostly done with a wash meaning the part is electrically put in a wash and the mated surface is pre-soldered or made ready to accept a component, then nearly all at once components are soldered to their surfaces.

Certainly this method ( you can wiki this if you want the details ) allows for placement errors to be minimized and a few things of the like, but this is where the benefit ends.

The MASSIVE downside of the wash mechanism is the very very veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy thin layer of actual solder being applied.

Before ANYONE argues this point, LIE to me and tell me you have not bought a solid state machine built device in the past 7 years that didnt come with a cap, smd, transistor or mosfet un-attached to the main board. This has happened to me probably 10 times in 5 years and I wouldnt consider myself an above average consumer of electronic equipment per se.

EVERY machine built item that has failed on me ( at least 100 ) I have torn apart, resoldered the joints of the failed areas including each of the surrounding items and from then forward ad infinitum working basically unless something else fails.


Cost, hell yes its expensive to hand solder things even for skilled personnel, but dont just say machines are better all the time, they aren't even remotely better all the time.

LIFE is about compromise EVERY situation is about compromise, some things are better in the pro column some are better in the con column depending on what it is and what you want from it, plain and simple.


----------



## envisionelec

If an amplifier company today made a direct clone of the Art A600 in the USA, minus CHYs graphic art and sculptured heatsink design.

Would it get panned for being a clone?
Would it get slammed for not being from PPI? 
Would it be accepted for what it is or shamed for what it is not?

Would you buy it? 
What if it was $799 MAP (minimum advertised price) like Apple or Bose products?
Now, would you buy it? What about two or three?

The competition is selling kilowatt amps for $200.

If you had to look at your household budget. Look at your kids' college fund. Look at your mortgage payment and emergency fund...what would you choose?

These are an honest questions.


----------



## envisionelec

trust7 said:


> Before ANYONE argues this point, LIE to me and tell me you have not bought a solid state machine built device in the past 7 years that didnt come with a cap, smd, transistor or mosfet un-attached to the main board. This has happened to me probably 10 times in 5 years and I wouldnt consider myself an above average consumer of electronic equipment per se.



A wash? :rolleyes2:

Today's soldering is done with vapor reflow on SMD and wave soldering on TH. Paste in pin, paste on pad. There is no wash (whatever that is). Soldering isn't a guessing game, it's a science. I'm interested in seeing your data for hand vs. machine soldering failures.


----------



## Grizz Archer

OK, question for you all... The whole thing about doing mini amps has my interest. So here is the question... If you could have a mini amp in Class AB, would you sacrifice some power for the same foot print? Do you really need 4x125, or would 4x75 be adequate? We have had a set of amps here since before all of the minis were even out, but we were not certain that they would sell, so we held back. The 4-channel is 4x75, 5.5" wide, 2.125" high, and the heatsink is only 10" long not including the terminals. Tiny! In the same chassis I have a 1200 watt monoblock. I have a 600 watt model that is about 7" long and an 1800 watt model that is just under 13.5" long. Obviously the monoblock sare Class D, but the 4 channels is A/B. Do you really need 125 watts per channel? The Class AB is extremely small, clean and less expensive. It is all about the extra 50 watts... Your opinions - lay them on me guys, but let's not repeat each other over and over and over again. Simple yes or no replies with an applicable input will be great.

Thanx for your help...


----------



## rexroadj

Would they sell? Yes! 
Do I need/want a 4x125? YES!
Would it be nice to have a 4x125 option and a 4x75 option to go with it to run a full system? YES!


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Would they sell? Yes!
> Do I need/want a 4x125? YES!
> Would it be nice to have a 4x125 option and a 4x75 option to go with it to run a full system? YES!


A 4x125 would get pretty long in AB and not be considered a "mini". I can either do one or the other but not both. To start I will probably do the 600 and 1200 watt monos amd a 4 channel to see how they do. If they do well, I will add more skus later. If you're doing high power components or 3-way comps, you can alwasy use 2 4-channel models which is not much bigger than a 4x125 and you could have lot more control...


----------



## rexroadj

Yeah thats very true! I could just bridge one of the 4x75 to a set of mids! I think they would sell and as you said.....You could add to the line later. I definitely think the mono's would go like hot cakes! Would there be room for the xovers we have come to know and love (like the ss lines etc..)


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Yeah thats very true! I could just bridge one of the 4x75 to a set of mids! I think they would sell and as you said.....You could add to the line later. I definitely think the mono's would go like hot cakes! Would there be room for the xovers we have come to know and love (like the ss lines etc..)


Do you really think that people like our xovers? I am not an amplifier engineer but I do design the entire preamp stage. I am the most anal prick when it comes to that. I'll scream like a little girl until I get my way. But I am pretty proud that ca literally do just about anything. I could not think of anything else at the time. Anyway, the answer is not as of yet. Real estate is an issue. The monos have 0/6/12 boost (which I hate), Subsonic from DC to 50Hz, LPF from 40Hz - 220Hz, and gain. Does it really need any more than that for a mono? Does it have to have phase? We'd probably keep the boost and make it variable. But I do not have room for more controls unless we change everything and locate them on top. 

4-channel... Just to get the 8 speaker terminals, they had to be stacked and take heavy gauge forks. 1/2 HPF DC to 200Hz. 3/4 LPF/Full/HPF switch 50Hz - 750Hz. I would like to have something similar to our current preamps, but I'm sorry, I just do not have the real estate...


----------



## rexroadj

I cant speak for everyone else.....BUT I found the xovers on the ref amps some of the best and most usefull I have used. I ran a full system off a 4.920 (sub and midbass) and tweets and midrange off a 4.400 all active. It was so simple and very functional!


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> OK, question for you all... The whole thing about doing mini amps has my interest. So here is the question... If you could have a mini amp in Class AB, would you sacrifice some power for the same foot print?


No. In fact, I wouldn't trust a straight AB mini-amp, because I know they're less efficient and thus require more cooling (heatsinks/fans) than a class D. I know to some degree that's illogical, but it seems like something legitimate (efficiency) is being sacrificed for something stupid (a marketing blurb, and possibly lower MTBF due to heat buildup) by making a small AB amp.

Now, I realize you have a board on the shelf already, so from your perspective it could be trading off something legitimate (efficiency) for two also-legitimate things (lower development costs, quicker time-to-market). On that basis, if you can sell it cheaply but keep the perceived quality up it may find a good niche and be profitable in the market. But it's not something I'd personally consider.



Grizz Archer said:


> Do you really need 4x125, or would 4x75 be adequate?


There is already one major player in that power and size range (Ubuy Piccolo, as rebadged by Eton, Wet Sounds, Arc, and others). IMO, yours would have to be functionally equivalent and equivalent in perceived quality (a good review could do all that) and because it's later to the market but filling the same niche it would have to be notably cheaper to make economic sense, IMO.


----------



## truckerfte

if priced right, i could live with 4x75.Then one for highs, one bridged into midbass, and one of the class D's for subs. 

would it be practical to market something like a 3x75 or so? im thinking it would match nicely with something like a ms-8. there prolly isnt a huge market right now, but as these processors, and others become more common, it would make setting up a center channel much easier


----------



## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> OK, question for you all... The whole thing about doing mini amps has my interest. So here is the question... If you could have a mini amp in Class AB, would you sacrifice some power for the same foot print?
> 
> The Class AB is extremely small, clean and less expensive. It is all about the extra 50 watts... Your opinions - lay them on me guys, but let's not repeat each other over and over and over again. Simple yes or no replies with an applicable input will be great.
> 
> Thanx for your help...


Yes, mini A/B amps. I'll grab the popcorn.

:z:


----------



## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> I am not an amplifier engineer but I do design the entire preamp stage.... 1/2 HPF DC to 200Hz. 3/4 LPF/Full/HPF switch 50Hz - 750Hz. I would like to have something similar to our current preamps, but I'm sorry, I just do not have the real estate...


Your amplifiers are DC coupled? 

What are some of your favorite designs that you _must_ have? I'm genuinely interested.


----------



## douggiestyle

I would buy a small A/B 4x75. But good luck educating the masses that just because their speakers are rated at 300w max doesn't mean they need 4x125 or else they'll risk damaging their speakers due to under-powering. 

It's been said time and again that we represent a very small minority of this market. If we had our way there would be more Sony ES, Clarion 9255 and Eclipse 7200s on the market. And look where we are today: Pioneer drops the golden boy DEH-P99 and some guy on here couldn't unload his in the classifieds for ~$800. 

Without any factual data, if you made me the decision maker, put a gun to my head and made me choose, I wouldn't bat an eye choosing the 125x4 class D as the more profitable option. Playing devil's advocate, I'll say that if you release a solid 4x75 gem (or 4x125 for that matter) and it's well received by "elitists" then it could lead to a trickle down, word of mouth effect. But I doubt it, at least in the short run. 

Also, good luck convincing the average guy to buy two 4 channel minis so he can run a three way front stage. 

IMHO, if I were running an amp company, I'd try hard as hell to push a staggered class D amp out to market that does something along the lines of 2x50 and 2x125. You'd be looking at a 2x50 and 1x500 for the perfect casual (and ever popular) fronts + sub setup.

Oh, and no on xovers. DSP is cheap and commonplace these days. The next big push for OEM integration will probably render amp processing even more obsolete.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Grizz Archer said:


> OK, question for you all... The whole thing about doing mini amps has my interest. So here is the question... If you could have a mini amp in Class AB, would you sacrifice some power for the same foot print? Do you really need 4x125, or would 4x75 be adequate? We have had a set of amps here since before all of the minis were even out, but we were not certain that they would sell, so we held back. The 4-channel is 4x75, 5.5" wide, 2.125" high, and the heatsink is only 10" long not including the terminals. Tiny! In the same chassis I have a 1200 watt monoblock. I have a 600 watt model that is about 7" long and an 1800 watt model that is just under 13.5" long. Obviously the monoblock sare Class D, but the 4 channels is A/B. Do you really need 125 watts per channel? The Class AB is extremely small, clean and less expensive. It is all about the extra 50 watts... Your opinions - lay them on me guys, but let's not repeat each other over and over and over again. Simple yes or no replies with an applicable input will be great.
> 
> Thanx for your help...


Those dimensions\power specs are almost identical to the massive audio nano's. Question is, when you say you have had a set of amps, does that really mean the build houses catalog includes those amps in their library?




Grizz Archer said:


> Do you really think that people like our xovers?


The general public might not even now what they do... but for anyone starting to get serious about the hobby, those advanced xovers are brilliant in my mind. I don't understand why all amps don't have xovers like that...


----------



## AAAAAAA

envisionelec said:


> Yes, mini A/B amps. I'll grab the popcorn.
> 
> :z:


In the 90's 500watt class A\B amps where huge and they did get hot, what in your opinion has changed that now class that AB amps can fit in tiny chassis?

Are there legitimate advances that make this possible or is it basically ignoring "safe" design philosophies?


----------



## subwoofery

Just thinking out loud. 
What about a 100x4 amp that has the rear channels stable to 1 ohm... Have seen this happening for 6 channels but no 4 channels that I know of. 

Something like 100x4 @ 4 ohm - 160x4 @ 2 ohm and the rears 250x2 @ 1 ohm (500x1 @ 2 ohm) 
Wanna keep it "tiny"? Use class D then. 

Kelvin 

PS: staggered output but in a different way.


----------



## envisionelec

AAAAAAA said:


> In the 90's 500watt class A\B amps where huge and they did get hot, what in your opinion has changed that now class that AB amps can fit in tiny chassis?
> 
> Are there legitimate advances that make this possible or is it basically ignoring "safe" design philosophies?


I'm being facetious. At only 45-55% efficient, a 500W mini amp would burn the carpet in your trunk.


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> I cant speak for everyone else.....BUT I found the xovers on the ref amps some of the best and most usefull I have used. I ran a full system off a 4.920 (sub and midbass) and tweets and midrange off a 4.400 all active. It was so simple and very functional!


That is the idea - glad you like them. Haven;t had anybody contact me with a complaint yet. Although, they can be a bit intimidating for some people...


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> No. In fact, I wouldn't trust a straight AB mini-amp, because I know they're less efficient and thus require more cooling (heatsinks/fans) than a class D. I know to some degree that's illogical, but it seems like something legitimate (efficiency) is being sacrificed for something stupid (a marketing blurb, and possibly lower MTBF due to heat buildup) by making a small AB amp.
> 
> Now, I realize you have a board on the shelf already, so from your perspective it could be trading off something legitimate (efficiency) for two also-legitimate things (lower development costs, quicker time-to-market). On that basis, if you can sell it cheaply but keep the perceived quality up it may find a good niche and be profitable in the market. But it's not something I'd personally consider.
> 
> 
> 
> There is already one major player in that power and size range (Ubuy Piccolo, as rebadged by Eton, Wet Sounds, Arc, and others). IMO, yours would have to be functionally equivalent and equivalent in perceived quality (a good review could do all that) and because it's later to the market but filling the same niche it would have to be notably cheaper to make economic sense, IMO.


You got me on efficiency, but I was assuming that this was more about size. Sure we can buy the uBuy amps and have a me-too product, but I would rather be different. We are looking at a few things here - size, efficeincy and total power. To make a product just like everybody else is not my style and since they hit the market first, would even sell any? Don't want to be known as a "copy cat", regardless of how well the uBuy amps work. What if there are 3 more companies with them at CES? Then we wasted time and money. Plus, uBuy certainly would not sell them to use for less that everybody else so there is nothing good that can come from buying an already spread out amplifier series from a trading company. That being said, I can offer something in the same size, with great performance, for less money. The only trade off is total power. Since the amps would yield less power that a D in the same size, the current draw might be comparable. I am not an amp engineer. But what is the current draw different between an AB amp at 4x75 and 60% efficiency (assuming), versus a D amp at 80% eff (assuming) and 4x125?

A 4x75AB and 1x600D in the mini size, with appropriate cooling at a lexx expensive cost seems like a viable option, but hey, that's whay ai am asking. If you guys all say now way, it will not sell, then we won't do it. But if you all say you'd buy it (knowing well that all of you guys are cheapskates and want audiophile quality at swap meet prices - lol) then it could easily happen...


----------



## Grizz Archer

AAAAAAA said:


> Those dimensions\power specs are almost identical to the massive audio nano's. Question is, when you say you have had a set of amps, does that really mean the build houses catalog includes those amps in their library?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The general public might not even now what they do... but for anyone starting to get serious about the hobby, those advanced xovers are brilliant in my mind. I don't understand why all amps don't have xovers like that...


They are not the Nanos. I mean they are here, like in my office and tangible... My design for preamps is not cheap and factories do not really like to deal with me. Imagine that! lol


----------



## DS-21

Grizz Archer said:


> You got me on efficiency, but I was assuming that this was more about size.


It's really about both, because they're related. A smaller amp that will fit where you want but is inefficient (sheds relatively more for the output than another amp that would also fit) that presents a problem because one would expect many "cram the amp in there" mounting spots to offer relatively poor ventilation. Yes, you can make recommendations about ventilation and even insist that your authorized dealers follow them, but you know better than I do that many won't, amps might suffer damage from the heat, and your company's reputation will take an undeserved hit for what's really improper (and properly warned-about) use.

Also, with moderns having so much electronic stuff in them, there's generally less power available for the audio gear from the alternator. So higher efficiency is a priori superior. Not to mention that with hybrids and such lower-efficiency amps may have measurable effects in terms of battery life and longevity.

So the ideal is a small, cool-running, insanely powerful, and dirt cheap amp that's beautifully built. 

One thing you didn't mention was your amp's power supply. Is it a straight rail, or some riff on Class G/H. By the efficiency rating, I'm guessing the former.



Grizz Archer said:


> Sure we can buy the uBuy amps and have a me-too product, but I would rather be different.


To be sure, I wasn't saying buy the Ubuy Piccolo series. What I was saying is, that's the benchmark in the market right now for such an amp. So basically IMO to make economic sense yours has to beat it in some important way: power, price, efficiency, or size. Looks-wise, except for the oversized gaudy nameplate IMO the Arc-branded Ubuy does it right.



Grizz Archer said:


> That being said, I can offer something in the same size, with great performance, for less money. The only trade off is total power.


Sounds like you're in the same ballpark power-wise as the Ubuys (within 1dBW). They're about 60WPC (4Ω, 12.5V). 



Grizz Archer said:


> Since the amps would yield less power that a D in the same size, the current draw might be comparable. I am not an amp engineer. But what is the current draw different between an AB amp at 4x75 and 60% efficiency (assuming), versus a D amp at 80% eff (assuming) and 4x125?


At full power, the 4x75 should draw less power. But overall listening to music, I'm not so sure.



Grizz Archer said:


> A 4x75AB and 1x600D in the mini size, with appropriate cooling at a lexx expensive cost seems like a viable option, but hey, that's whay ai am asking. If you guys all say now way, it will not sell, then we won't do it.


I would also think it's a question of corporate strategy as much as success of this one line. As a gap-filler while you develop a compact Class D it could make a lot of sense to get your dealers and customers to see your brand as a player in the compact amp market. And if it's available to end-users for less than the Ubuy stuff, it could also make sense on its own.


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> It's really about both, because they're related. A smaller amp that will fit where you want but is inefficient (sheds relatively more for the output than another amp that would also fit) that presents a problem because one would expect many "cram the amp in there" mounting spots to offer relatively poor ventilation. Yes, you can make recommendations about ventilation and even insist that your authorized dealers follow them, but you know better than I do that many won't, amps might suffer damage from the heat, and your company's reputation will take an undeserved hit for what's really improper (and properly warned-about) use.
> 
> Also, with moderns having so much electronic stuff in them, there's generally less power available for the audio gear from the alternator. So higher efficiency is a priori superior. Not to mention that with hybrids and such lower-efficiency amps may have measurable effects in terms of battery life and longevity.
> 
> So the ideal is a small, cool-running, insanely powerful, and dirt cheap amp that's beautifully built.
> 
> One thing you didn't mention was your amp's power supply. Is it a straight rail, or some riff on Class G/H. By the efficiency rating, I'm guessing the former.
> 
> 
> 
> To be sure, I wasn't saying buy the Ubuy Piccolo series. What I was saying is, that's the benchmark in the market right now for such an amp. So basically IMO to make economic sense yours has to beat it in some important way: power, price, efficiency, or size. Looks-wise, except for the oversized gaudy nameplate IMO the Arc-branded Ubuy does it right.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you're in the same ballpark power-wise as the Ubuys (within 1dBW). They're about 60WPC (4Ω, 12.5V).
> 
> 
> 
> At full power, the 4x75 should draw less power. But overall listening to music, I'm not so sure.
> 
> 
> 
> I would also think it's a question of corporate strategy as much as success of this one line. As a gap-filler while you develop a compact Class D it could make a lot of sense to get your dealers and customers to see your brand as a player in the compact amp market. And if it's available to end-users for less than the Ubuy stuff, it could also make sense on its own.


I need to talk to the amp engineer and get more data. I clearly understand your concern about heat, but in testing this was not a problem. But that was a lonmg time ago and I do not remember everything clearly. As for the alternator. The alternator must be able to power evrything in the car with all of ti running at once. It would be quite odd to be using headlights, blinkers, ac, defroster, radio, power windows, sunroof, etc all at one moment. If a ca has a 100 amp alternator in it. How often do you think you are drawing a full hundred amps of current? Thats a decent amount of power. Not when you got some gumby whining about his 2000 watt amp in his Honda, but you get my point...

Ideal? Ya want a chocolate covered supermodel, that is rich, blind and deaf with that as well?! lol

You're right, ours would have to have an edge. I cannot do more power with AB. I can match the size. To equal efficiency, it would have to be Class D and then price would go back up to being comparable with everybody else's. Tough call. I'm fairly certain it would be tough to make something much better or less expensive with the same parameters to build within...

Tough call...


----------



## truckerfte

just take your time, and do it right! lol, my old dII series amps have worked fine for the better part of 20 years, im sure they will hold out for a few more months!


----------



## subwoofery

Grizz Archer said:


> ...You're right, ours would *have to have an edge*. I cannot do more power with AB. I can match the size. To equal efficiency, it would have to be Class D and then price would go back up to being comparable with everybody else's. Tough call. I'm fairly certain it would be tough to make something much better or less expensive with the same parameters to build within...
> 
> Tough call...


For that I feel that you either need to bring up a class A/B as small as others class D 
OR 
Bring a bigger 4 channels class D to the market. 
OR 
As stated in my previous post, a 4 channels with the rears being stable down to 1 ohm stereo 
OR 
A different sized chassis: 
15" (L) x 3" (W) x 2.5" (D) with connections on 1 side only - about the same heatsink area as the Arc 4 mini (making class A/B possible) 
15" (L) x 4" (W) x 2.5" (D) with connections on 1 side only - about the same heatsink area as the Alpine PDx Gen 2 (making class D possible) 
Most cars have at least 16" available under the seat meaning they would be able to hide the amp with all the connections towards the doors - with cables tucked under the door sill panels... 
Important note: this one will require quick disconnect cable terminals. 

I like the later the most. 

Just thinking out loud... Sorry 
Kelvin


----------



## AAAAAAA

You can do what other does, make a classD that does 100watts [email protected] but not make it do anymore power at 2ohms. So you get big power where it is usable and it hsould keep costs down and also foot print can be smaller.

I would say add a fan and make it smaller still, not many class'd with a fan...don't think I have ever seen one actually. The GH Ubuy amps has a fan though.


----------



## subwoofery

AAAAAAA said:


> You can do what other does, make a classD that does 100watts [email protected] but not make it do anymore power at 2ohms. So you get big power where it is usable and it hsould keep costs down and also foot print can be smaller.
> 
> I would say add a fan and make it smaller still, not many class'd with a fan...don't think I have ever seen one actually. The GH Ubuy amps has a fan though.


Then PPI needs to step up to 150+ watts then... The average consumer will buy the 4 channels to power a pair of passive comps + a sub. 
A lot of people on this forum does too. 
IMHO, I think that 100 watts would not be a great seller if it doesn't put more power @ 2 ohm (could be wrong though). 

Kelvin


----------



## AAAAAAA

^If it is ridiculously small... it might be a winner


----------



## DS-21

AAAAAAA said:


> I would say add a fan and make it smaller still, not many class'd with a fan...don't think I have ever seen one actually. The GH Ubuy amps has a fan though.


The Kenwood XR-4S (and I presume the others in the series) has a fan, two fans actually if memory serves, along with mesh-covered openings on two sides to promote airflow.

As for whether it's loud enough to be audible, it's not. At least, not when it's maybe 3 feet away from the cabin with a carpet barrier in between. Directly under the driver's seat, I don't know.


----------



## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> For that I feel that you either need to bring up a class A/B as small as others class D
> OR
> Bring a bigger 4 channels class D to the market.
> OR
> As stated in my previous post, a 4 channels with the rears being stable down to 1 ohm stereo
> OR
> A different sized chassis:
> 15" (L) x 3" (W) x 2.5" (D) with connections on 1 side only - about the same heatsink area as the Arc 4 mini (making class A/B possible)
> 15" (L) x 4" (W) x 2.5" (D) with connections on 1 side only - about the same heatsink area as the Alpine PDx Gen 2 (making class D possible)
> Most cars have at least 16" available under the seat meaning they would be able to hide the amp with all the connections towards the doors - with cables tucked under the door sill panels...
> Important note: this one will require quick disconnect cable terminals.
> 
> I like the later the most.
> 
> Just thinking out loud... Sorry
> Kelvin


I can do AB as small as other D but they would be lower power in order to still be able to cool them selves.

A 4 channel with low impedance rear channels would be similar to making a 3 channel for fronty and subs. A few came out but never sold well. I personally like the idea, alwasy have, but they sold well for anybody, not even Xtant and they had the coolest one imho...

Cooling becomes an issue when they get that small. Even with the protos I have here now, I am not confident that they could get smaller and stay cool. Yes, they would be cheaper then the minis on the marlet now because the 4-ch is AB, but they are also only 4x75 and it seems that most people would prefer 4x125. I'm kind of stuck at the moment, because I do not want another mee-too amplifier like everybody else. Cool or not, it only provves we have to buy from another company like the mini brands now. I do not want to go there. To make something similar that is truly ours, probably would not have a cost advantage. Gotta think about this some more...


----------



## roxj01

I don't know much about amplifier design, (I'm a firefighter not an engineer) but I know a little about installation after 15+ years of playing with mobile audio. To me personally, I would rather see something with a thinner profile rather than a super compact chasis. Then you could still have a smallish foot print and be able to easily mount it behind and under panels and seats. On another note, any plans for marine amplifiers with some durability for us outdoor types?


----------



## douggiestyle

Grizz Archer said:


> I can do AB as small as other D but they would be lower power in order to still be able to cool them selves.
> 
> A 4 channel with low impedance rear channels would be similar to making a 3 channel for fronty and subs. A few came out but never sold well. I personally like the idea, alwasy have, but they sold well for anybody, not even Xtant and they had the coolest one imho...
> 
> Cooling becomes an issue when they get that small. Even with the protos I have here now, I am not confident that they could get smaller and stay cool. Yes, they would be cheaper then the minis on the marlet now because the 4-ch is AB, but they are also only 4x75 and it seems that most people would prefer 4x125. I'm kind of stuck at the moment, because I do not want another mee-too amplifier like everybody else. Cool or not, it only provves we have to buy from another company like the mini brands now. I do not want to go there. To make something similar that is truly ours, probably would not have a cost advantage. Gotta think about this some more...


The problem with three channel (and 5 channel) amps is that the sub channels are generally 200-300wrms. That's really not enough for a lot of people, especially in today's environment. Hence my original suggestion of a staggered, bridgeable amp that can do 50x2 and 125x2, bridgeable to 500x1. Feasible? I have no clue. That's your job. :laugh: And I'd buy it. Actually, I would buy two, and bridge the front channel to power the center.


----------



## DS-21

douggiestyle said:


> The problem with three channel (and 5 channel) amps is that the sub channels are generally 200-300wrms. Marketers have convinced a lot of people that they need more sub power than that, especially in today's environment.


Fixed. 

"Back in the day" I was running two Oz Audio 250L's in 1.6 cubic feet of airspace and each one was only getting ~50W (single channel of a PPI A404.2 to each woofer). Never felt like I lacked bass. 

IMO people vastly overestimate how much power they need for the subs, and often underestimate how much power would be useful up front.


----------



## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> I can do AB as small as other D but they would be lower power in order to still be able to cool them selves.
> 
> A 4 channel with low impedance rear channels would be similar to making a 3 channel for fronty and subs. A few came out but never sold well. I personally like the idea, alwasy have, but they sold well for anybody, not even Xtant and they had the coolest one imho...
> 
> Cooling becomes an issue when they get that small. Even with the protos I have here now, I am not confident that they could get smaller and stay cool. Yes, they would be cheaper then the minis on the marlet now because the 4-ch is AB, but they are also only 4x75 and it seems that most people would prefer 4x125. I'm kind of stuck at the moment, because I do not want another mee-too amplifier like everybody else. Cool or not, it only provves we have to buy from another company like the mini brands now. I do not want to go there. To make something similar that is truly ours, probably would not have a cost advantage. Gotta think about this some more...


You can't do A/B in a mini properly and stay cool. You can do B with fans. Before someone goes off and says "there are no Class B amps" on the market....I have a sampling of amplifiers here of Korean origin that share pretty much the same topology. Class B. The outputs are biased (I use that term loosely) at 300mV. They aren't even conducting. 
I removed each amp's PCB from its heat sinks and monitored the idle current. Over a 30 minute period, NONE of the amplifiers drew substantially more current; some even dropped.
These are "respected" brands. I refuse to name them, but some of them date back to 1999.

Grizz, please answer my question about your preamp sections. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1116563-post336.html


----------



## Grizz Archer

AAAAAAA said:


> You can do what other does, make a classD that does 100watts [email protected] but not make it do anymore power at 2ohms. So you get big power where it is usable and it hsould keep costs down and also foot print can be smaller.
> 
> I would say add a fan and make it smaller still, not many class'd with a fan...don't think I have ever seen one actually. The GH Ubuy amps has a fan though.


The lil' guy I have now is 65% efficient at 4 ohms. at 14.4v 1%thd it does 4x65 and 4x105 at 2 ohms. Would not be hard to make 4x100 at 4 ohm. Hmmm... We'll see what other feedback I get on this. Makes sense since rarely would somebody be using a mini and lod it down with multyiple speakers per channel...


----------



## Grizz Archer

subwoofery said:


> Then PPI needs to step up to 150+ watts then... The average consumer will buy the 4 channels to power a pair of passive comps + a sub.
> A lot of people on this forum does too.
> IMHO, I think that 100 watts would not be a great seller if it doesn't put more power @ 2 ohm (could be wrong though).
> 
> Kelvin


Maybe... But some transducer junkies like me may like to use home audio separates. 8 ohm drivers get so little power on a 2 ohm amplifier, but they would get decent power on a 4 ohm amplifier. Just a thought. I know I'd dig it...


----------



## Grizz Archer

roxj01 said:


> I don't know much about amplifier design, (I'm a firefighter not an engineer) but I know a little about installation after 15+ years of playing with mobile audio. To me personally, I would rather see something with a thinner profile rather than a super compact chasis. Then you could still have a smallish foot print and be able to easily mount it behind and under panels and seats. On another note, any plans for marine amplifiers with some durability for us outdoor types?


I have always liked the thin amps as well,b ut it is hard to build a good power supply with tons of low-profile mini parts... We made some nice Marine amps and they did not sell. Fresh water or salt water? All of the last boat installs I did were regular car audio amplifiers. But none of them were oceanic so salt spray testing was not required. Still neven had a problem, though I was a bit concerned about parts shaking loose...


----------



## Grizz Archer

DS-21 said:


> Fixed.
> 
> "Back in the day" I was running two Oz Audio 250L's in 1.6 cubic feet of airspace and each one was only getting ~50W (single channel of a PPI A404.2 to each woofer). Never felt like I lacked bass.
> 
> IMO people vastly overestimate how much power they need for the subs, and often underestimate how much power would be useful up front.


10-4 that!


----------



## Grizz Archer

envisionelec said:


> Your amplifiers are DC coupled?
> 
> What are some of your favorite designs that you _must_ have? I'm genuinely interested.


Sorry bad old school habbit. We used to say DC to Light for 1/0Hz to 100kHz. 

Anyway Do you mean my requirements in a pre amp stage? If so, I require truly useable frequency options... I love all active systems, so I want the HPF to go to 3kHz+ for tweeters. Ive been asked why I did not make the HPF go up to 8kHz. I saw no need and it would have made setting a lot more difficult. Which bring up another point - a HPF that goes from really low to really high need to have a multipler switch or it requires a scope to set them properly. And one more point about wide band xovers - you should neever be a cheap ass and not spec detented xovers. For example... I am finally putting my 3 custom colored Stealth amps in. Attached is the chart I have for setting everything perfectly. Every potentiometer has 41 detents, so as long as I do not have a heart attack while tuning, they are very easy to set, gap as necessary, etc. It is amazing how good a system, can sound without even using an EQ if you have enough control via xovers and gains per driver...

Sorry man, did not mean for this to be a book, you asked. Twice even! lol

Next, BPFs!!! I now laugh when I see a 4 channel that has HPF for the front and LPF for the rear, ONLY. The rear should always be BPF imo. Briefly - I have 3-way components up front and coaxials in the rear. But gain setting alone is tough because my rear fill is in the roll bar behind my head. The front 6.5" are in sealed enclosures in the dash because the door have to be removeable in a Jeep. The 2.5" and 20mm are in the A-pillar. I cannot tell you exactly what my final setting will be, but here is a guesstimate... 4-ch amp #1 - front to tweeters with HPF at 4kHz. Rear to 2.5" midrange with LPF at 4kHz and HPF at 400Hz bandpassed. 4-ch amp #2 - front actually will go to the rearfill since they only need an HPF at about 70Hz. The rear will go to the fron 6.5" midbass bandpassed at 400Hz LPF and 70Hz HPF. I was a bit shy on my midbass due to the weird locations, mid/tweet in the a-pillar and not having a roof or any of the 4 doors on. I will now have much better control...

Actually this is the biggies for me. Bass boost and 180 degree phase boosts are a waste to me, but we'll do it when we have real estate anyway... If this did not answer your question, please advise. If you are going to ask about separate l and r gains, don't. I like them, but they cause a billion more problems than they are worth for most people.

Since I started, I have pretty much forced my preamps design into as many amps as possible. Stealth, D-Tower, Rubicon (where it started) Reference, new Tarantula, Power Class ans even the Sedona. Alot of people think that the Sedona is just the cheapy PPI series, but while it is not Power Class, the preamp is pretty much identical, way cool for an affordable series of amps. Do you think I am anal now? lol 

Might I ask you the same question?


----------



## Grizz Archer

envisionelec said:


> You can't do A/B in a mini properly and stay cool. You can do B with fans. Before someone goes off and says "there are no Class B amps" on the market....I have a sampling of amplifiers here of Korean origin that share pretty much the same topology. Class B. The outputs are biased (I use that term loosely) at 300mV. They aren't even conducting.
> I removed each amp's PCB from its heat sinks and monitored the idle current. Over a 30 minute period, NONE of the amplifiers drew substantially more current; some even dropped.
> These are "respected" brands. I refuse to name them, but some of them date back to 1999.
> 
> Grizz, please answer my question about your preamp sections. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1116563-post336.html


There is alot of grey here. What do you consider mini? The mini AB ii have sitting heres 140m wide x 255.5mm longx 54mm high. I considr tha mini, but maybe I mway off. Remember man, I am just a stupid speaker junkie, NOT an amplifier engineer!


----------



## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> Sorry bad old school habbit. We used to say DC to Light for 1/0Hz to 100kHz.
> 
> Do you think I am anal now? lol
> 
> Might I ask you the same question?


I'm familiar with the term. :thumbsup:

I was talking topology-wise of the preamp (single-ended, quasi-differential, full differential), not the feature set of the filter sections. 

I'll be glad to talk about my designs in a bit, but I don't wish to reveal more than I've already stated in this thread about preamps as I have IP to protect. 

I have to apologize because I am having to clamp down a lot more on giving out ideas - new, promising things _appear_ to be on the horizon. No details yet, but I've got a lot of work ahead of me thanks to this thread and forum.


----------



## rexroadj

DS-21- I could not agree with you more about distribution of power/power to sub vs. front stage. I run a TON more to my front stage then to my sub. You just dont need a ton of power to a sub (most subs of course) to blend as it should, as well as having some extra to bump it if so chosen......But I am also a front stage power junky too...Way more then needed here!

Grizz- I also agree SO MUCH about how well a system can get dialed in via an active xover (if you play enough or actually know what your doing) Its amazing! Often over looked...People love the EQ bandaid first. I guess they are sexier? (not saying that its the end all cure all for a system. I realize that an eq is a great device for fine tuning.....but if everything else is done right it should be FINE TUNING) 
just my two cents.....I'm sure I will get change back! 

As much as I love the xovers on your amps (and I do) I wonder if, since these amps are supposed to be a middle line and the power class already has the great xover and the sedona has them.....maybe just a no extra's power amplifier? Especially if they can be small and powerfull (100x4 would be great!) I do think that with the way some of the market is leaning towards these new great processors there might not be as much need/want for the active xovers on the amps (if so then buy the pcx?) I only stand by that statement assuming that it cost more $ to do the xovers. This way you can sneak into the market with some of the others but maybe keep the price even more attractive? I am sure there are people out there for everything mentioned in this whole tread. Thanks for keeping us in the loop though! Keep us posted!


----------



## pat_smith1969

I still say a graduated output is useful. My two way active right now has 70x4 (Kenwood X4R) and the tweets sound amazing (morel Speakers), the mids are power starved. I would REALLY like to see a 50x2, 150x2 and 500x1 (or just a 4 channel of 50x2 and 150x2). 

It would also be nice if they were interlocking in some fashion... like the old Rockford Punches could be strung together with their end caps, for a one continuous amp look.


----------



## douggiestyle

DS-21 said:


> Fixed.
> 
> "Back in the day" I was running two Oz Audio 250L's in 1.6 cubic feet of airspace and each one was only getting ~50W (single channel of a PPI A404.2 to each woofer). Never felt like I lacked bass.
> 
> IMO people vastly overestimate how much power they need for the subs, and often underestimate how much power would be useful up front.


Thanks for the fix, and co-sign on that (I run a US Amps 5600X and a single Infinity Perfect 12.1) but I'll refer to my earlier statement:

"But good luck educating the masses that just because their speakers are rated at 300w max doesn't mean they need 4x125 or else they'll risk damaging their speakers due to under-powering."

Hard(er) to sell units these days without selling out. The member count of ca.com vs diyma should reflect the masses


----------



## starboy869

i just saw the teaser on www.precisionpower.com. Retro but new school design. I like it.


----------



## rexroadj

? where the heck are you looking???????


----------



## n_olympios

Amplifiers -> Art Collection.


----------



## rexroadj

Really???? people really dont read the thread???? THERE WILL BE NO ART AMPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What you see on that site will never exist!
That is not what the new line (to be named later) will look like!
(sad though, they look awesome!!)


----------



## n_olympios

Well it certainly didn't get there by mistake.


----------



## rexroadj

READ THE THREAD! That line up and pic is OLD OLD NEWS!


----------



## fertigaudio

The PPI website is very dated. Model numbers are wrong, art series is no longer available for the amplifier section, the PC amplifiers description was copy and pasted into the sedona sections so it reads all wrong. Links are broken. 

I have been building websites for 12 years and for a large company the PPI site leaves a lot to be desired.


----------



## starboy869

the thing is that picture wasnt there when the new website went up and running. The picture in the art series section is well ideas from this thread. hmmm

when and IF there are new art series I might buy one or two


----------



## rexroadj

No, actually the pics in this thread are off ideas from the website! Your correct, it was not on the original "new" site BUT it was put on shortly after. IF you go back and read this thread you will see that they had to forgo the art concept due to a complete ******* pulling a scam on Grizz and the boys at epsilon. Hence there will NEVER be a new art series! Thats the point of the TITLE of this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not trying to be an ass but seriously, this has been beat to death a million times already and clearly people are not reading and it just leads to repeated ignorant posts.


----------



## audiogodz1

On a related note............ March 1993 AS&S........

Also, it wouldn't hurt to pay special attention to the first paragraph on page 2.

(read caption)


----------



## Grizz Archer

audiogodz1 said:


> On a related note............ March 1993 AS&S........
> 
> Also, it wouldn't hurt to pay special attention to the first paragraph on page 2.
> 
> (read caption)


Wow! Nice pull man!


----------



## audiogodz1

Look at that monster mural behind the conference table. So nice.


----------



## ISTundra

What happened with the amp design contest? Ain't been jack squat about that lately.


----------



## audiogodz1

You can't look 4 posts up?


----------



## rexroadj

audiogodz1 said:


> You can't look 4 posts up?


If that is meant towards my post......

That post has nothing to do with why there are 0 updates as to what is going on with the new line of ppi amps. Nor does it have anything to do with the new line.

What that post was for, however is the complete *******'s that still seem to think that ppi is coming out with a new "art" series! Its simple, if you have not read this thread then dont comment as it will most likely be foolishly stated!


----------



## Carolyn Hall Young

audiogodz1 said:


> Look at that monster mural behind the conference table. So nice.


Thank you, Audiogodz. 
Jeff Scoon owns many of my paintings, including the work shown in the old Precision Power reception area and conference rooms.

It is hard to see in the photos, but I designed the curvy conference table to fit the oddly shaped conference room. The glass was fabricated off site. The supporting legs were cast concrete with exposed stone and amplifiers were made by people at PPI. The guys could figure out how to make just about anything I threw at them. Everything was art and collaboration.

The framed print series behind Jeff Scoon, in his office, are hand water colored lithographs that I made while in graduate school, circa 1976 -1978. The look of the amps grew out of the paintings.

Thank you for your kindness, and for the memories. 

xxoo chy


----------



## ISTundra

audiogodz1 said:


> You can't look 4 posts up?


You want to point me to it smart guy? I'm asking about the contest, not Art amps or the non-resurrection of said amps.


----------



## audiogodz1

Your welcome Carolyn.



rexroadj said:


> If that is meant towards my post......
> 
> That post has nothing to do with why there are 0 updates as to what is going on with the new line of ppi amps. Nor does it have anything to do with the new line.
> 
> What that post was for, however is the complete *******'s that still seem to think that ppi is coming out with a new "art" series! Its simple, if you have not read this thread then dont comment as it will most likely be foolishly stated!


It was all scrapped and your one response covered all. The new PPi amps are not part of the contest after all the drama.


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## ISTundra

So... can someone point me to a thread from Grizz or PPI that specifically states the contest for a new non-Art amp design was canceled?

I submitted a design I was quite proud of, just wanna know what, if anything may become of it...


----------



## rexroadj

ISTundra said:


> So... can someone point me to a thread from Grizz or PPI that specifically states the contest for a new non-Art amp design was canceled?


x2
I dont recall that?


----------



## fertigaudio

audiogodz1 said:


>


ahhh yes! The days when Americans were living their dream, creating jobs in the US, and being innovative and creative. As Grizz said very nice pull!
"all signal processors go through quality control, it takes ONE DAY to produce a PAR225!"


----------



## audiogodz1

The biggest thing about these old pics are things like the single photo of Jeff holding the amp with a big grin on his face. He wasn't just cheesing it up for the camera, that is a genuine happy "I friggin love this" grin. It wasn't just some "I got the CEO job this year, here's my ham it up smile photo op" look. People were genuinely happy to be a part of PPI and everything involving. If you do what you love and put out something you believe in with people who love it and believe in it just the same you won't have to worry about the money. It'll be there. Don't put out 50 products of average when you can put out 5 of awesomeness. CUT your product catalog, LOWER your production, go completely against the grain and you'll find that you still come out ahead if you're putting out legendary equipment instead of Korean equipment.


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## rexroadj

audiogodz1 said:


> The biggest thing about these old pics are things like the single photo of Jeff holding the amp with a big grin on his face. He wasn't just cheesing it up for the camera, that is a genuine happy "I friggin love this" grin. It wasn't just some "I got the CEO job this year, here's my ham it up smile photo op" look. People were genuinely happy to be a part of PPI and everything involving. If you do what you love and put out something you believe in with people who love it and believe in it just the same you won't have to worry about the money. It'll be there. Don't put out 50 products of average when you can put out 5 of awesomeness. CUT your product catalog, LOWER your production, go completely against the grain and you'll find that you still come out ahead if you're putting out legendary equipment instead of Korean equipment.


Sounds nice, but I sure dont buy into it. #1 its just not realistic to think that doing something you love will always make money when it will be fighting what a market is demanding . #2 if that were the case then why did all those companys die off? Its just not what the market is calling for unfortunately. I would love to see it myself because I WOULD actually pay for it. I do now! The bottom line is price vs. competition. There are few to none (large scheme of things) that will pay for what it would cost. There has to be a bottom line ($$$$) for profit vs. investment. At the end of the day it still has to be a business and it needs to make sense (cents) before it can make money.
It was just different then. I think PPI did a great job taking advantage of what they had while it was in front of them, and your right, it was a genuine love of what they were doing and it was a market that was driving for it and a market paying for it. Aint gonna happen now sadly


----------



## n_olympios

Sad but most probably true.


----------



## audiogodz1

rexroadj said:


> Sounds nice, but I sure dont buy into it. #1 its just not realistic to think that doing something you love will always make money when it will be fighting what a market is demanding . #2 if that were the case then why did all those companys die off? Its just not what the market is calling for unfortunately. I would love to see it myself because I WOULD actually pay for it. I do now! The bottom line is price vs. competition. There are few to none (large scheme of things) that will pay for what it would cost. There has to be a bottom line ($$$$) for profit vs. investment. At the end of the day it still has to be a business and it needs to make sense (cents) before it can make money.
> It was just different then. I think PPI did a great job taking advantage of what they had while it was in front of them, and your right, it was a genuine love of what they were doing and it was a market that was driving for it and a market paying for it. Aint gonna happen now sadly


Those companies did not die out, they sold off. There is a huge difference. Selling out in the late 90's was the perfect time to scram after a successful run. Everybody saw the market shift trending. That's why it would work so well now. All the niche companies are gone, open waters.


----------



## rexroadj

audiogodz1 said:


> Those companies did not die out, they sold off. There is a huge difference. Selling out in the late 90's was the perfect time to scram after a successful run. Everybody saw the market shift trending. That's why it would work so well now. All the niche companies are gone, open waters.


They sold out because they rode that coaster to the top and knew there was only one direction left to go. It would absolutely not work the same now. People arent going to pay for it. Its a fact. Genesis is now gone and there have been a few others recently, and a lot more to follow...Why? because they were catering to 1 or 2% of the market. The waters are open because its just not practical and would end up being a waste of several investors money. Some companys have survived doing there own thing but even most of them have shifted gears to "fit in" now. ED, ID, DD, etc..... I really dont see there being hardly any market for it at all. Again I think it sucks that this is what it has come to but its just a fact. Its the new way of life. People here are not going to "invest" there money to pay way more for a product to have a USA sticker on it or to support local growth. Not unless they can get it for pennys on the dollar on assholebay and no one is going to work for said company without making top dollar (maybe even without being over paid because they feel they are entitled for some random reason). I could be wrong, but its business so I dont think I am in this case. It is to bad! 
I dont think that things have taken a step backwards because of it though? Not that it means we would not have propeled it as much or more either.


----------



## pat_smith1969

rexroadj said:


> They sold out because they rode that coaster to the top and knew there was only one direction left to go. It would absolutely not work the same now. People arent going to pay for it. Its a fact. Genesis is now gone and there have been a few others recently, and a lot more to follow...Why? because they were catering to 1 or 2% of the market. The waters are open because its just not practical and would end up being a waste of several investors money. Some companys have survived doing there own thing but even most of them have shifted gears to "fit in" now. ED, ID, DD, etc..... I really dont see there being hardly any market for it at all. Again I think it sucks that this is what it has come to but its just a fact. Its the new way of life. People here are not going to "invest" there money to pay way more for a product to have a USA sticker on it or to support local growth. Not unless they can get it for pennys on the dollar on assholebay and no one is going to work for said company without making top dollar (maybe even without being over paid because they feel they are entitled for some random reason). I could be wrong, but its business so I dont think I am in this case. It is to bad!
> I dont think that things have taken a step backwards because of it though? Not that it means we would not have propeled it as much or more either.


I would like to point out that there are a couple companies making top quality car audio gear at a high price and they are doing OK. I am thinking of Audison and Zapco, even Hertz (I always call it Nertz because of the weird way they do their H). Granted they are not US based company (not sure about Zapco but the other two are Italian, I think). So there is room in the marked for a superb quality/priced company, it is not open waters as there are a few companies.

Having said all that, I hate those people who say "buy American because it supports our country". You should buy American because it is the best product, or rather you should buy the best product American or not. I work hard for my money and when making purchases I will buy the best product I can afford, period. Why should I throw my money away on a piece of garbage just because it is American. If the American companies want consumers to buy their products then they can make a product that is as good or better, that is how we became the country we used to be. Not by putting out crap and telling everyone to buy it or you are destroying our country.

I am thinking mostly of cars here. Why should I spend $400 a month (a good portion of my total bring home pay) on an Chevy or Dodge (or any of the American cars) made with cheap plastic parts, poor reliability and absolutly NO re-sale value, when I can spend the same amount on a Mazda (I own a MazdaSpeed3 and LOVE it) that is a solid well built vehicle. If Chevy wants my money then MAKE A PRODUCT THAT IS AS GOOD, period. 

Anyways Sorry for the rant, I will buy my Asian produced products and be happy with the extra money in my pocket.


----------



## rexroadj

Yeah well you said it......those are not american companys (zapco I think is though?) But they are not doing that great, maybe there lower tier models are doing well (where are they made so those companys dont really fit into the discussion do they? 
A lot of these companys can easily have there stuff made here, build local factorys, and support local growth, and make TOP TIER products. That has never been the issue! THE ISSUE IS NO ONE WILL PAY FOR IT!!!! PERIOD! Maybe 1% of the audio world will say they will and even less then that will actually walk in a store and buy it. THATS WHY THERE ARE NONE! This is a very simple concept. 
Again, if Audison and Hertz and a couple others (most likely overseas where there economys might be in betters shape) are doing ok then what makes you think there is room for more? 
I am not trying to argue with peoples views but it is silly when people dont get these simple facts about the market/business. Its intro. business!
I agree with you though....it makes no sense buying something with a USA sticker if its less value then something asian etc..... You gotta look out for #1 and get the best you can with your $. That used to mean a USA sticker, now not so much. Can it change? Of course! Will it? probably no time soon


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## n_olympios

rexroadj said:


> (most likely overseas where there economys might be in betters shape)


Ha! Nice one.


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## pat_smith1969

rexroadj said:


> Yeah well you said it......those are not american companys (zapco I think is though?) But they are not doing that great, maybe there lower tier models are doing well (where are they made so those companys dont really fit into the discussion do they?
> A lot of these companys can easily have there stuff made here, build local factorys, and support local growth, and make TOP TIER products. That has never been the issue! THE ISSUE IS NO ONE WILL PAY FOR IT!!!! PERIOD! Maybe 1% of the audio world will say they will and even less then that will actually walk in a store and buy it. THATS WHY THERE ARE NONE! This is a very simple concept.
> Again, if Audison and Hertz and a couple others (most likely overseas where there economys might be in betters shape) are doing ok then what makes you think there is room for more?
> I am not trying to argue with peoples views but it is silly when people dont get these simple facts about the market/business. Its intro. business!
> I agree with you though....it makes no sense buying something with a USA sticker if its less value then something asian etc..... You gotta look out for #1 and get the best you can with your $. That used to mean a USA sticker, now not so much. Can it change? Of course! Will it? probably no time soon


I agree with you 100% actually, I just noted that a couple companies seem to be able to put out top notch gear. I would also like to point out that there is a lot of information out there that says not to buy expensive car audio (or home audio) gear. On this forum you simply have to start a post titled "Is Zapco worth the extra money over a Jensen amp" or "does 1 watt sound the same on all amplifiers?" and you will start a endless progression of opinions and "facts" saying anything from "you definately CAN hear the difference" to "A watt is a watt, no matter who makes it" or my favorite "All amps sound the exact same". Regardless as to what point of view is right, even an above average person will be a bit confused over weather or not a "top teir" amp is worth it.

For myself I thought I would test this theory and buy a "cheap kenwood" class D amp. I purchased the KAC-X4R and absolutely LOVE it. This is the most noiseless amp I have ever owned. As far as I can tell, it adds no coloration to the music. And I paid $200 for 4x70 WITH a nice DSP built in. I coupled that with a 500w mono kenwood amp for $150 and the whole system sounds great. I am not sure an "art series" amp would sound better. My only complaint about the whole thing is that my only option was 4x70 and I would really like to give my mid-bass 140 watts instead of 70.

My point being, back in the day there was a huge difference between an "art series" and the run of the mill pioneer/alpine/fosgate type amp, this supported the big price tag difference. These days with the less-expensive run of the mill amps sounding so good (referring to the new soundstream, kenwood, etc type amps) there is no real justification for paying the extra to get a difference most people will say you can't hear anyways.


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## rexroadj

I tend to spend a good deal of money, but I get great deals on super high end stuff. I am a get what you pay for kind of guy (for the most part) and will gladly except a great deal when its offered. For example, I get great prices on all things Harman co. (jbl, harman, infinity, etc...) and therefore tend to purchase there high end stuff cause its affordable. I tried a few of the class d amps (new kenwood, alpine etc...) and was completely dissatisified with the output of them. I have tried the jbl gto amps and they were pretty crappy too (just my opinion of course) they ran super hot and just were a let down in output. I had run the new soundstream ref amps and was amazed/thrilled with its performance and for the $ felt it was a great amp. I then came across a deal to buy a SS human reign for the same price I paid for the ref. I dont think there is a ton to gain with the HRU vs the Ref. but for the price it was a no brainer. Sound wise I didnt notice a thing, the xover on the ref was more flexible, but the HRU runs much much cooler. However either of them was a HUGE step up in performance over the similar rated power ken/jbl/alpine etc.. So I think when you group certain amps classes or prices together then they are very similar. The three listed above you could flip a coin over as far as function (aside from xovers etc) same with the the amps in the next price bracket above, they compare well to each other. Comparing the Human Reign or even the Ref to a jenson is just not going to work out. If you have to set the gains on one amp down to equal a lesser output from another amp to get them to "sound" the same then they are still not equal amps, and therefore you are paying for something more. As well as things like noise floor etc... I do agree though, you absolutely do not have to spend a great deal of $ to gain exceptional results. Thats a lot due to the market were in now  Hell I had a set of $2000 (paid $800)components (jbl 660gti) that I sold and replaced with the $500 608gti components (paid $230) and they are every bit as good and in some areas I find them better, so I am a firm believer there are a lot of avenues to save money.


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## audiogodz1

Found another oldie but goodie.


----------



## wdemetrius1

Another great pull!!!


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## n_olympios

Is he wearing green pants? Oh the days. 


(I had one too). :blush:


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## rexroadj

Audiogodz1: You have some absolutely amazing car audio nostalgia!!!!!
Thanks for sharing it!


----------



## Darth SQ

Well, I have read through the whole thread. I took two days. IMHO, I have a few points to make that have become clear. 
Point #1-This topic was important enough to motivate 17 pages of amp enthusiasts to post their opinions. That cannot be ignored. It was important enough to have the original Art Series artist Carolyn Hall Young post and devote her time. And the amount of time Grizz Archer put into it is amazing considering what he is trying to accomplish at PPI. Thank you both very much.
Point #2-Grizz has something that none of the other amp manufacturers have. He has the opportunity to resurrect the best name and reputation in the business. PPI was truly state of the art inside and out setting the bar so high we're still posting about it today. Every other company would kill to have that foundation to build on. 
Point #3-Some really great ideas and designs were posted during this thread. You all should be very proud of your submissions and deserve some resolution in all of this for your efforts. 
Point #4 (last one)-With this much passion and desire from the buyers, designers, artists, and manufacturers participating in this thread hoping for something really special to come out of all of this, it smells like..........opportunity.
Thx for reading.

BTW, Mr. Archer, I would be happy to pick up the tab at Sierra Nevada, Pyramid, or even Mendocino Brewing if you find your way up here in NorCal. Then you can show me how to set up my xover properly.


----------



## PPI_GUY

Let me throw out this point for discussion.
I will assume all the new subwoofers are being made overseas as well? 
Just wondering why an American company like Credence wasn't approached to build/supply the new subs? They supplied Stillwater Designs with all of their original Kicker subs and I think we can say they produced a better than alright product. They are still in business and would seem to be a perfect supplier of well built, high quality designs that would allow P-P-I to put the label "Made In America" on a line of products again. 
There may have been some business reasons why the new subs were sourced from outside the US. I was just wondering.


----------



## audiogodz1

^^ I think Credence should be the sole provider of US made subs for companies then they'd have enough volume to supply everyone at a good price.


----------



## rexroadj

That is an absolutely excellent point regarding credence subs. I have since (kicker days) bought many subs direct from credence simply because I just loved the original kicker solo's but they are extremely hard to come by. The do make a quality product. Maybe they dont have the tools/equipment to make certain designs or work with certain materials? No idea, but its an excellent thought, wonder why they cant or wont, or have not thought about it?? That would be really really cool though!


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## wdemetrius1

Couldn't agree more.


----------



## starboy869

That's retail pricing, vs cost and wholesale pricing. I assume cost would be like $50 in parts, wholesale could be $150 ea. Sell the sub for $300+retail or $220ish fleabay.


----------



## PPI_GUY

starboy869 said:


> That's retail pricing, vs cost and wholesale pricing. I assume cost would be like $50 in parts, wholesale could be $150 ea. Sell the sub for $300+retail or $220ish fleabay.


Looking at the 'new' P-P-I subs, the only thing remotely exotic appears to be the red aluminum heat extractor on the Power Class series and I can't imagine that adds more than a few cents cost to the product. 
What about buying from Dayton Audio as another option? They make some fantastic products. Rebadge some of their more popular SKU's, maybe add some graphics and sell them as P-P-I if nothing else. 

I'm not knocking the new P-P-I subs. From all the reviews I've read, they appear to be a solid design and well built. I just think it would be nice to see "Made In The USA" on atleast some new P-P-I products. It would also be a GREAT selling point to be able to say that they are helping American's in these tough economic times by actually buying from domestic suppliers. Talk about standing out from the crowd! 
I know I would pay a few dollars more for that option.


----------



## envisionelec

cajunner said:


> have you seen the pricing Credence now charges for their own branded line of subs?
> 
> imagine having to make a profit on top of that, that's what they'll have to charge to produce anyone else's designs, if not more because of added complexity/diverse materials/exotic topologies.
> 
> 
> Credence is a good choice, but if they want 350 bucks for a sub, they'll get the Ultra treatment unless they can back it up with performance commensurate with pricing.


Pure speculation, but that's likely Credence retail pricing. It's a tiny operation - for real engineering behind the product, you'd be better off with Eminence - they're more than just wetlook paper and Santoprene surrounds. God bless those Credence guys, but they've not remained competitive.


----------



## envisionelec

rexroadj said:


> It was just different then. I think PPI did a great job taking advantage of what they had while it was in front of them, and your right, it was a genuine love of what they were doing and it was a market that was driving for it and a market paying for it. Aint gonna happen now sadly


Nothing has changed, really - except the expectation that one _should_ get rich from their efforts, no matter the quality of product produced. That ideal has grown significantly; While technology has lept forward and consumerism has followed at cheap prices, so has the expectation that China = high profits.

In many ways, China = hidden costs that tear a business model into shreds.

I haven't stopped working on my goal. I've managed to get funding for an "intermediary" product whose sales will provide working capital for my car audio business come Q3 2011. In other words, I won't be beholden to a investor to whose whims I may lose my life's work. 

What happens beyond that...well, it's anyone's guess. I've got a few believers and to them I say "Thank You!!".


----------



## PPI_GUY

envisionelec said:


> Pure speculation, but that's likely Credence retail pricing. It's a tiny operation - for real engineering behind the product, you'd be better off with Eminence - they're more than just wetlook paper and Santoprene surrounds. God bless those Credence guys, but they've not remained competitive.


I don't think that's fair to Credence. When I look at the Credence catalog online, I see alot what remains popular today. They offer alittle bit of everything the car audio buff would want. Proven 'classic' sealed and vented designs, more modern SPL 'square' models, a new radial roll plus series with inner mounted speaker leads, etc. There has to be a reason so many well known brands used Credence as a supplier. I would bet many of their subs would do very well in any SQ or SQL competition.
Credence product page is here...
"Credence Speakers Product Page"

You mentioned Eminence. They sound fine to me too. 
I just think that if the time is right for P-P-I to step back into spotlight and compete with brands like JayL and others, they should offer some products Made In The USA. Call it a Pro Line or whatever but, just offer it to consumers. With the right advertising, I think it would do well.


----------



## PPI_GUY

envisionelec said:


> Nothing has changed, really - except the expectation that one _should_ get rich from their efforts, no matter the quality of product produced. That ideal has grown significantly; While technology has lept forward and consumerism has followed at cheap prices, so has the expectation that China = high profits.
> 
> In many ways, China = hidden costs that tear a business model into shreds.
> 
> I haven't stopped working on my goal. I've managed to get funding for an "intermediary" product whose sales will provide working capital for my car audio business come Q3 2011. In other words, I won't be beholden to a investor to whose whims I may lose my life's work.
> 
> What happens beyond that...well, it's anyone's guess. I've got a few believers and to them I say "Thank You!!".


I would love to hear more of what you have planned in the way of specific products and the segment of the market you hope to attract. Maybe this thread isn't a good place to post that info but, feel free to PM me the info. I can't invest but, would consider being a customer. 
Good on you for attempting a start-up right now anyway!


----------



## wdemetrius1

Grizz forgive me if I missed it, but I also would like to know if a winner was crowned?


----------



## envisionelec

PPI_GUY said:


> I don't think that's fair to Credence. When I look at the Credence catalog online, I see alot what remains popular today. They offer alittle bit of everything the car audio buff would want. Proven 'classic' sealed and vented designs, more modern SPL 'square' models, a new radial roll plus series with inner mounted speaker leads, etc. There has to be a reason so many well known brands used Credence as a supplier. I would bet many of their subs would do very well in any SQ or SQL competition.
> Credence product page is here...
> "Credence Speakers Product Page"
> 
> You mentioned Eminence. They sound fine to me too.
> I just think that if the time is right for P-P-I to step back into spotlight and compete with brands like JayL and others, they should offer some products Made In The USA. Call it a Pro Line or whatever but, just offer it to consumers. With the right advertising, I think it would do well.


Credence was just fine when they designed the original stuff for the big names. But times change - they don't have the staff they used to. It's just different now.


----------



## PPI_GUY

envisionelec said:


> Credence was just fine when they designed the original stuff for the big names. But times change - they don't have the staff they used to. It's just different now.


I haven't seen any huge breakthru's in subwoofer design in the last 10 years. 
Maybe the reason they (Credence) don't have the staff they used to is that companies are sourcing their speakers from outside the country? 
I just wanted to know the reasoning for P-P-I to buy abroad when their are so many quality manufacturers right here at home. Was it purely a cost decision or were there other factors involved? Are Eminence, Dayton, Credence, et al not up to speed on 'modern subwoofer design'?


----------



## envisionelec

PPI_GUY said:


> I haven't seen any huge breakthru's in subwoofer design in the last 10 years.
> Maybe the reason they (Credence) don't have the staff they used to is that companies are sourcing their speakers from outside the country?
> I just wanted to know the reasoning for P-P-I to buy abroad when their are so many quality manufacturers right here at home. Was it purely a cost decision or were there other factors involved? Are Eminence, Dayton, Credence, et al not up to speed on 'modern subwoofer design'?


That is the reason - but they have always been small. They didn't have the capital to invest in overseas manufacturing like Eminence did (Eminence China). Dayton is nothing more than an outsourcer - any "technology" they assume is purely that of the manufacturer.

It's always a cost decision. Customers want $100 subwoofers with 3" edge-wound voice coils, 2" xmax and milled aluminum frames. The labor to produce all that machining doesn't come cheap...


----------



## PPI_GUY

There seems to be ALOT of subs made and sold that are priced well beyond the $100 price-point. JayEl is a good example. I'm not saying companies shouldn't offer the more inexpensive option but, the new P-P-I catalog has plenty of that already. What it doesn't have is an 'elite' line that offers alittle more for the necessary higher price. 
'Made In The USA' is a fantastic selling point, especially with the current mood of American buyers. If what you (envisionelec) are saying is accurate then there should be -zero- domestic manufacturers of car audio equipment. That is obviously not the case as there is still some domestic manufacturing going on.

How could Credence have always been "small" if they were supplying all of Stillwater (Kicker), Lanzar and other brands subwoofer models? As segmented as the car audio market is today, how big would they have to be to supply a company like P-P-I with an 'elite' series of subs/speakers? 

Not trying to be argumentative but, I just haven't been swayed into believing American's can't or won't build a quality product in sufficent quantities that other American's will buy. Even at a slightly higher price point. There are still plenty of consumers who want to buy an excellent American product but, are almost forced into accepting foreign products because of limited choices. Marketing is key. Grizz Archer himself said he likes to go against the grain and what better opportunity than with P-P-I?


----------



## envisionelec

PPI_GUY said:


> There seems to be ALOT of subs made and sold that are priced well beyond the $100 price-point. JayEl is a good example. I'm not saying companies shouldn't offer the more inexpensive option but, the new P-P-I catalog has plenty of that already. What it doesn't have is an 'elite' line that offers alittle more for the necessary higher price.
> 'Made In The USA' is a fantastic selling point, especially with the current mood of American buyers. If what you (envisionelec) are saying is accurate then there should be -zero- domestic manufacturers of car audio equipment. That is obviously not the case as there is still some domestic manufacturing going on.
> 
> How could Credence have always been "small" if they were supplying all of Stillwater (Kicker), Lanzar and other brands subwoofer models? As segmented as the car audio market is today, how big would they have to be to supply a company like P-P-I with an 'elite' series of subs/speakers?
> 
> Not trying to be argumentative but, I just haven't been swayed into believing American's can't or won't build a quality product in sufficent quantities that other American's will buy. Even at a slightly higher price point. There are still plenty of consumers who want to buy an excellent American product but, are almost forced into accepting foreign products because of limited choices. Marketing is key. Grizz Archer himself said he likes to go against the grain and what better opportunity than with P-P-I?


What better opportunity, yes - but you'll never see Epsilon-owned PPI made in the USA. It's a great argument - but the "mass market" car audio companies won't go back to US manufacturing. The so-called "grass-roots" companies that do start with US manufacturing are often tempted by the advantage that low cost labor markets portray. They're too small and too entrenched to have any inkling of the problems they'll encounter. Swayed by greed (purely, IMO), they take off to China, Mexico, Taiwan and Korea in hopes that their profit margins will explode. And they do...for a year or two. Then the trouble comes. The products don't work like they used to, they aren't being well received, a competitor is selling the same (exact same) thing for $10 less than their cost. They lose money and go bankrupt. 

It would be interesting to find out how many companies are truly in the black each year. I'd bet the percentage is miniscule - the struggling ones are selling more high-profit items _just to compete_. So, the amplifier-only manufacturer just started selling in-dash DVD players, coaxial speakers and so forth. But their core competency isn't in ICE - just amplifiers. Their customers are confused and disappointed, sales plummet and the company goes out of business.

It happens every year.

About Credence. A good friend of mine works for Eminence. He tells me about Credence's woes when we chat one or twice a year. He has friends and acquaintances that have or still work there. I think he said that they're down to three people now (2010) - and that they had maybe 50-60 people during their heyday. Still small... Companies don't stay big if the orders aren't coming in. Credence had its share of quality problems that were not well resolved, especially during the early Kicker Solobaric Square drivers. I don't remember the details, but Credence (as a company) didn't handle the failures well. 

It's extremely tough to work with car audio customers. They can be your best friends and your worst enemies. The range of experience is extremely broad (as we well know). And no other electronics industry lets consumers handle as much variability as car audio. For example, in home audio you get a speaker cabinet with drivers installed. The manufacturer will add protection where necessary and the customer has to use this assembly as a unit to avoid voiding a warranty. Car audio buyers can get their JayeL tweeters at the finest audio shop then go to WalMarrrt and light 'em up with a Virtual Reality amplifier set to 80Hz HP. THEN they go online and talk about how much JayEl SUX. I can't even imagine catering to the SPL crowd...You have to be a bit masochistic to want that business!

My bottom line: Don't be greedy. I'd rather employ my local friends and neighbors at a higher cost than go overseas any day. For labor intensive stuff like CNC milling, I'd buy the equipment. But first, you need a plan - five, ten years down the road. If you go into car audio for car audio alone, you're marginalizing the talent you employ. I'd like to be a millionaire in twenty years, but I won't get there on car amplifiers alone. I'm steadily accepting small jobs each year and subcontracting _the best talent_ _I CAN'T afford_. 

Yep - I can't (yet) afford to pay a EE a yearly salary, but I can afford to pay him by the job. But, I don't pay him directly - I write dealer contracts with business owners that are willing to fund the NRE costs in exchange for exclusive distributorship. I found it stupidly easy to do this - just _ask._ 
Right now, I'm working on a replacement LCD screen for a piece of equipment that just can't work without it - and some of the top names in the music industry use this equipment. Dozens of people have unsuccessfully tried to replicate it - spending thousands of dollars, but mine is the only company actually _doing it_. And I haven't spent a dime.

This is absolutely the best way for me to fund my business, long-term. I can generate a minimum of $250k per year doing work like this. But don't think for a minute that it's easy - you have to know what the problem is and have the determination (not necessarily brains) to solve it. I don't spend a nickel of it - I don't even pay myself. It goes in, and doesn't come out. I could buy (not lease) equipment, own (not rent) the warehouse and factory and live a decent life in a regular suburb in Ohio with nothing looming over my shoulder like so many business owners face today. 

That's it: Don't be greedy.


----------



## Grizz Archer

envisionelec said:


> Swayed by greed (purely, IMO), they take off to China, Mexico, Taiwan and Korea in hopes that their profit margins will explode. And they do...for a year or two. Then the trouble comes. The products don't work like they used to, they aren't being well received, a competitor is selling the same (exact same) thing for $10 less than their cost. They lose money and go bankrupt.


Interesting and you're probably right to some extent. But let me assure you that none of the Asian manufacturing was our idea. It was our solution to the problem that the consumer created. We have gone over this a million times over the last decade. I'd bet every penny I have that if you asked all the manufacturers if they would rather manufacturer here or in Asia, they would all say here. 

There are some companies out there still today that demand a high margin based off of their name. But there are other companies that work of of little margin, even with Asian manufacturing. We can go round and round, but going to Asia out of greed have happened with a couple of companies in the beginning. But today it is a necessity to remain in business and be a large respected global supplier of car audio. And you, me and everybody else that demanded lower pricing, and that bought stuff on eBay caused it, not manufacturers or greed. The funny part is that people have gotten more demanding for higher quality and yet lower prices. And then when a manufacturer give them this, they don't buy it anyway. WTF? I had to learn all over again after being out of the industry for 5 years. Alot has not changed over the last 3 decades, but I have learned that if I give the enthusiast exactly what he wants, it will cost a fortune in R&D and tooling, it will not sell and we will have to put it on close out in a year. The enthusiast is fun to talk to, but contributes to probably less than 5% of our dying industry. In this economy, it's the Joe Blows buying entry level stuff that is keeping alot of companies alive.

Sad but true....


----------



## rexroadj

Part of the problem comes from people who might be (or think) great at the engineering part but clearly have no clue about business! (same can be said the other way too of course) Its already been said countless times but Grizz just went over it again. Nobody can afford to do it here and stay alive. We all created this mess now we need to live with it. People are just cheap and want everything for nothing, besides the koreans do a kick ass job of it!


----------



## Grizz Archer

PPI_GUY said:


> There seems to be ALOT of subs made and sold that are priced well beyond the $100 price-point. JayEl is a good example. I'm not saying companies shouldn't offer the more inexpensive option but, the new P-P-I catalog has plenty of that already. What it doesn't have is an 'elite' line that offers alittle more for the necessary higher price.
> 'Made In The USA' is a fantastic selling point, especially with the current mood of American buyers. If what you (envisionelec) are saying is accurate then there should be -zero- domestic manufacturers of car audio equipment. That is obviously not the case as there is still some domestic manufacturing going on.
> 
> How could Credence have always been "small" if they were supplying all of Stillwater (Kicker), Lanzar and other brands subwoofer models? As segmented as the car audio market is today, how big would they have to be to supply a company like P-P-I with an 'elite' series of subs/speakers?
> 
> Not trying to be argumentative but, I just haven't been swayed into believing American's can't or won't build a quality product in sufficient quantities that other American's will buy. Even at a slightly higher price point. There are still plenty of consumers who want to buy an excellent American product but, are almost forced into accepting foreign products because of limited choices. Marketing is key. Grizz Archer himself said he likes to go against the grain and what better opportunity than with P-P-I?


I have a good friend that is an American manufacturer and he makes stuff for companies that you all know by name. But myself and other companies can offer the same product for 1/2 the cost or even less. He buys alot of the parts from China anyway. But his cost of assembly is outrageous, and you will pay an additional $100-$200 per cast basket 12" spl-oriented subwoofer. They are great subs, but we cannot sell those in massive quantities world-wide. I wish I was allowed to take a video camera into some of the China factories where you can see elite home audio products coming off the same line as entry level swapmeet speakers. You'd all crap yourselves. China can make anything, they just need to be taught to understand the materials and critical quality assurance. Funny, Toyota, Nissan and the Korean brands all manufacturer here. The cost of shipping cars is not cheap. But if they make them here they can sell cheaper. But how many of you think that a Japanese car is built with the highest level of engineering and therefore make the most reliable vehicles?!?! I do. BUT, if they are made here, do we make Japanese brand vehicles ****ty in comparison without the Japanese quality? Now, we use Japanese engineering and standards that are strictly regulated so that we can turn out vehicles with the same quality. Do you really think the Japanese would let us ruin their vehicles by building them like American vehicles? LOL Likewise, Asia can and does build American and European audio products to to the highest echelon of quality, using OUR engineering and OUR quality expectations.

Creedence and other companies that made American car audio speakers was awhile ago. Probably not so much lately. They did not specialize in car audio so these same companies now have them made by car audio factories...

Finally, you need to be swayed, period. We cannot sell high end products now in large quantities. If we double the the price, everybody is going to think we are on crack as they watch go out of business. Find me any Chinese made product that would would be willing to pay double for just to have it made here. I surely wouldn't. I am all about keeping work in America, but it simply is not possible in this industry. Sure there are a few cockroach companies that make stuff here, but how many of them make $50m a year, $75m a year or more? They are specialty Frakenstein products that do not help the industry grow and only hurt the large companies.

I do love to go against the grain. I think "different" is cool and sellable. But other will say I am an idiot and to sell what the mas market asks for. Its like the whole angel and devil on the shoulders. PPI was radically destroyed. We cannot just come out with way overpriced American products when our reputation needs to be rebuilt. Remember Soundstream 12 years ago or so? Fires man! Literally! We were not successful with SS for a few years until they knew we wanted to bring it back to what it should be. And when some of our best products came out, they were made in China or Korea, but nobody seemed to care then. Why? Because they were so weird? I have no idea. But now that everybody followed suit and went to Asia, it is so important all of a sudden. Typical f'ed up Americans - always wanting what we can't have. Funny, but not really. We need to build PPI slowly. 2010 was all about releasing a few product to test the market and see how it is received. We already see some things that need to adapt. But I do promise everybody this... The minute we can sell you PPI products for 2x the current value, I'll by happy to make them here again. Again, my bad joking is more sad than funny, but true regardless...


----------



## Grizz Archer

rexroadj said:


> Part of the problem comes from people who might be (or think) great at the engineering part but clearly have no clue about business! (same can be said the other way too of course) Its already been said countless times but Grizz just went over it again. Nobody can afford to do it here and stay alive. We all created this mess now we need to live with it. People are just cheap and want everything for nothing, besides the koreans do a kick ass job of it!


Yup!


----------



## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> Interesting and you're probably right to some extent. But let me assure you that none of the Asian manufacturing was our idea. It was our solution to the problem that the consumer created. We have gone over this a million times over the last decade. I'd bet every penny I have that if you asked all the manufacturers if they would rather manufacturer here or in Asia, they would all say here.
> 
> There are some companies out there still today that demand a high margin based off of their name. But there are other companies that work of of little margin, even with Asian manufacturing. We can go round and round, but going to Asia out of greed have happened with a couple of companies in the beginning. But today it is a necessity to remain in business and be a large respected global supplier of car audio. And you, me and everybody else that demanded lower pricing, and that bought stuff on eBay caused it, not manufacturers or greed. The funny part is that people have gotten more demanding for higher quality and yet lower prices. And then when a manufacturer give them this, they don't buy it anyway. WTF? I had to learn all over again after being out of the industry for 5 years. Alot has not changed over the last 3 decades, but I have learned that if I give the enthusiast exactly what he wants, it will cost a fortune in R&D and tooling, it will not sell and we will have to put it on close out in a year. The enthusiast is fun to talk to, but contributes to probably less than 5% of our dying industry. In this economy, it's the Joe Blows buying entry level stuff that is keeping alot of companies alive.
> 
> Sad but true....


Maybe for retail - maybe for Epsilon. I work for a multi-billion dollar global powerhouse (household name) and they have chosen to manufacture their latest product from our division in Mexico. These are two and three million dollar machines. Not TVs and car amplifiers. The quality is horrible. Not even close to being reasonable. We build 20-30 of them per year - they are labor intensive, but hold tolerances to tenths of microns. They are then shipped here to be tested...and reworked - a huge effort. Recently, all of our control boards for this machine were built with counterfeit capacitors. 
So, call me a little jaded, but the reason our precision equipment is manufactured in a low labor cost country is so the corporation can boost its bottom line. 

I am keen to learn more about how these "frankenstein" US-based companies, as you call them, hurt the larger companies. Soundstream PCB designs were just plain off the wall. Sounded great - but terrible implementation. Almost every high current part was stressed to its limit - and the PCB copper traces were almost always incorrectly sized for the current they were asked to carry. No, I'm no fan boi for SS. SS was destroyed by mismanagement + sales to a camping lantern company. PPI the brand was destroyed by DEI. Prior to that, PPI "the business" was destroyed by greed. This is my point.

True, if *Epsilon* doubled its prices, you'd never sell another plasma-fire amplifier to the 16 year old kid at a flea market. I don't think that statement can be taken very seriously given your company's reputation. Buying PPI didn't turn *our* opinion of Epsilon around. And unless your managers care more about quality than profit margin (unlikely), PPI will be slightly less marginally designed than your Power Acoustik amplifiers. In *our *minds, Epsilon is only slightly better than Boss Audio. I know you understand this. And you also know that no matter what you try to do - there will always be that ceiling of quality for PPI. I know you want PPI to be better...but someone above you will kill it. Prove me wrong - I hope you do.


----------



## putergod

envisionelec said:


> Maybe for retail - maybe for Epsilon. I work for a multi-billion dollar global powerhouse (household name) and they have chosen to manufacture their latest product from our division in Mexico. These are two and three million dollar machines. Not TVs and car amplifiers. The quality is horrible. Not even close to being reasonable. We build 20-30 of them per year - they are labor intensive, but hold tolerances to tenths of microns. They are then shipped here to be tested...and reworked - a huge effort. Recently, all of our control boards for this machine were built with counterfeit capacitors.
> So, call me a little jaded, but the reason our precision equipment is manufactured in a low labor cost country is so the corporation can boost its bottom line.
> 
> I am keen to learn more about how these "frankenstein" US-based companies, as you call them, hurt the larger companies. Soundstream PCB designs were just plain off the wall. Sounded great - but terrible implementation. Almost every high current part was stressed to its limit - and the PCB copper traces were almost always incorrectly sized for the current they were asked to carry. No, I'm no fan boi for SS. SS was destroyed by mismanagement + sales to a camping lantern company. PPI the brand was destroyed by DEI. Prior to that, PPI "the business" was destroyed by greed. This is my point.
> 
> True, if *Epsilon* doubled its prices, you'd never sell another plasma-fire amplifier to the 16 year old kid at a flea market. I don't think that statement can be taken very seriously given your company's reputation. Buying PPI didn't turn *our* opinion of Epsilon around. And unless your managers care more about quality than profit margin (unlikely), PPI will be slightly less marginally designed than your Power Acoustik amplifiers. In *our *minds, Epsilon is only slightly better than Boss Audio. I know you understand this. And you also know that no matter what you try to do - there will always be that ceiling of quality for PPI. I know you want PPI to be better...but someone above you will kill it. Prove me wrong - I hope you do.


AMEN, BROTHA!!!!

I still don't see why companies can't do what Zapco did... manufacture a POS bottom line (read everything Epsilon makes) in china, to make money (like all the outsourced greedy companies do) while still maintaining that high end/high dollar made in the USA products.


----------



## PPI-ART

putergod said:


> AMEN, BROTHA!!!!
> 
> I still don't see why companies can't do what Zapco did... manufacture a POS bottom line (read everything Epsilon makes) in china, to make money (like all the outsourced greedy companies do) while still maintaining that high end/high dollar made in the USA products.


Take Jay-El for example. The CEO of the company has said on numerous occasions that is why they will not manufacture their high end products off shore so they can keep quality control and the engineering dept actually oversees assembly at their Florida and Arizona facilities. Yea you pay more for their gear but I would put their quality and assembly processes ahead of all other car audio manufacturers. IMO

Edit, my point is their gear is on the mid to high end for the consumer but you don't see a shortage of people using their products. The problem is companies say consumers want great products at cheap prices. I say no. The problem is that's all you can get is mediocre Asian built products at cheap prices now. Every damn company has went abroad and the cycle will never be broken because the shareholders will never risk bringing back manufacturing to the states. It's not what the consumer wants it's what the shareholders and owners want in their pockets. They will never bring it back no matter what.


----------



## envisionelec

PPI-ART said:


> Take Jay-El for example. The CEO of the company has said on numerous occasions that is why they will not manufacture their high end products off shore so they can keep quality control and the engineering dept actually oversees assembly at their Florida and Arizona facilities. Yea you pay more for their gear but I would put their quality and assembly processes ahead of all other car audio manufacturers. IMO
> 
> Edit, my point is their gear is on the mid to high end for the consumer but you don't see a shortage of people using their products. The problem is companies say consumers want great products at cheap prices. I say no. The problem is that's all you can get is mediocre Asian built products at cheap prices now. Every damn company has went abroad and the cycle will never be broken because the shareholders will never risk bringing back manufacturing to the states. It's not what the consumer wants it's what the shareholders and owners want in their pockets. They will never bring it back no matter what.


I want to add that having amplifiers made in the USA will not double the price of the end product. You can still build a very good margin into an amplifier by managing your costs. The idea that one must build overseas to remain competitive is a false maxim.


----------



## Grizz Archer

envisionelec said:


> Maybe for retail - maybe for Epsilon. I work for a multi-billion dollar global powerhouse (household name) and they have chosen to manufacture their latest product from our division in Mexico. These are two and three million dollar machines. Not TVs and car amplifiers. The quality is horrible. Not even close to being reasonable. We build 20-30 of them per year - they are labor intensive, but hold tolerances to tenths of microns. They are then shipped here to be tested...and reworked - a huge effort. Recently, all of our control boards for this machine were built with counterfeit capacitors.
> So, call me a little jaded, but the reason our precision equipment is manufactured in a low labor cost country is so the corporation can boost its bottom line.
> 
> I am keen to learn more about how these "frankenstein" US-based companies, as you call them, hurt the larger companies. Soundstream PCB designs were just plain off the wall. Sounded great - but terrible implementation. Almost every high current part was stressed to its limit - and the PCB copper traces were almost always incorrectly sized for the current they were asked to carry. No, I'm no fan boi for SS. SS was destroyed by mismanagement + sales to a camping lantern company. PPI the brand was destroyed by DEI. Prior to that, PPI "the business" was destroyed by greed. This is my point.
> 
> True, if *Epsilon* doubled its prices, you'd never sell another plasma-fire amplifier to the 16 year old kid at a flea market. I don't think that statement can be taken very seriously given your company's reputation. Buying PPI didn't turn *our* opinion of Epsilon around. And unless your managers care more about quality than profit margin (unlikely), PPI will be slightly less marginally designed than your Power Acoustik amplifiers. In *our *minds, Epsilon is only slightly better than Boss Audio. I know you understand this. And you also know that no matter what you try to do - there will always be that ceiling of quality for PPI. I know you want PPI to be better...but someone above you will kill it. Prove me wrong - I hope you do.


Ya know, it is too bad that Mexico cannot do premium manufacturing. It would save alot of shipping and be convenient. :^)

There are several tiny companies, that make subs for example. They give a bunch away to competitors in an effort to set a world record in SPL. They do not not offer a full line of products. They are not commonly found in retail stores. And they do not last long. Consumers end up wasting money in some cases and have no reliable people to fall back on. I just do not care for it. But it does not matter because they will always be around...

You are 100% correct. SS was badass in the beginning. Matt Coleman was the second owner who literally burned the brand to the ground. It was not was not easy to rebuild the line. It takes time and trust. We did it well. The brand grows every year, even in these tough times. Same thing happened with PPI at Directed. They just never got behind it. They even came to our CES booth this year and liked what we had done with the line. But it too will take time to grow. We are surprised at the how it is doing so far, and we have strong hopes for it.

What statement are you talking about that you do not take seriously. I am missing something here. And who is our opinion? Most people do not know who Epsilon is. Enthusiasts on forums know, but the typical consumer does not. Do you think that we bought PPI to "turn your opinion of Epsilon around"?! I do not understand that statement really. How could buying a company turn an opinion of the parent umbrella company around? That no sense, my friend. We bought PPI, because we know from our experience with Soundstream that we can take a damaged company can rebuild it to be a profitable business acquisition. There is no magic or any other reason we would buy a brand. We bought it to make money, we are, and we will continue to do so. 

You said that PPI will be less than Power Acoustik. Buddy, I know that you know more about electronic engineering than I do. No contest. I respect that and wish I had your knowledge. But it sounds like you got butt hurt somehow before with PPI. Anybody without electronic engineering background can see that PPI is better than Power Acoustik. But I am very curious how you, with your knowledge, can make that statement. Please explain why PPI is not as good as Power Acoustik. So, Epsilon is slightly better than Boss Audio?! Wow, I do not even know to answer that one. There is no point in arguing with you about your opinion that you think everybody shares. And NO, I do not understand this so please never assume that i agree with your unfounded opinions. In fact, it might be wise to simply state that these are YOUR opinions and not use the word "our" or assume I agree. Seriously, I respect your knowledge, but you are making some insane comments. People respect your opinion, but this might change things a bit...

I do agree that there will be ceiling of quality for all brands. But this is entirely based on the economy, not our desires. We have some very cool ideas, but I sure as hell am not going to implement them until the market shows that people will buy really high end equipment. For the last few years, most high end stuff ends up being closed out since it does not sell. It sucks so bad, but having high end stuff with no buyers means we go out of business...

All we can do it hope that people will stop relying on eBay and start craving top quality and be willing to pay for it. Yeah, right! Like that will happen...


----------



## Grizz Archer

cajunner said:


> I think the general build quality of the plasma-fire type amps has been on the rise, as the technology continues to be copied and passed along from the innovators to the budget staples.
> 
> You saw this with Cadence, they were making cheap Chinese build amplifiers but they were using a few decent parts and a decent circuit, and selling them for less.
> 
> This "trickle up" in industrial design has to continue, based on marketing and profitability stuff, you can't expect the build houses in China to put out mass produced junk or else it would sink the company, the baseline for competence is such today that even lower tier product should work for a while, if not considerably longer.
> 
> I remember the moment when it all hit home for me, I was opening the boxes on a pair of transshipped Coustic carbon fibers, and I looked at the yellow cast basket, and the chromed up blingy magnet, and said, "wow, that's a lot of subwoofer for my buying dollar" until I noticed the made in China sticker under the terminals.
> 
> I said, "made in China? huh, I thought Coustic was an American company" but it made no difference, the subs still worked, even if the parts used were not quite star performers or coming in at elevated price points.
> 
> this was also the same time SoundStream was selling off it's supply of Van Gogh, and I got in on the buyout from Ubid, along with some subs/speakers.
> 
> which reminds me, Grizz can you say whether the last EXACT sub series had shorting rings in the motors?
> 
> Were shorting rings put into all the different series of EXACT subwoofers?
> 
> these subs supposedly retailed at more than 300 bucks each, (the 12") and it would be nice to know if they dropped the faraday bits as they tooled each series differently, because in the advertising for EXACT subs, it's stated they have them, but then you don't see it towards the end.


In all honesty, I do not know about the Exact motors since that was before my time here. I went through the warehouse and found a few pallets of vintage equipment, including about 20 Exact 10" from Northern California. Sols most of the goodies but still have a pair of the Exact 10 subs and other stuff. But I sure as hell am not going to destroy those beauts looking for a shorting ring. Sorry man, wish I had an answer for you...


----------



## rexroadj

Grizz Archer said:


> Ya know, it is too bad that Mexico cannot do premium manufacturing. It would save alot of shipping and be convenient. :^)
> 
> There are several tiny companies, that make subs for example. They give a bunch away to competitors in an effort to set a world record in SPL. They do not not offer a full line of products. They are not commonly found in retail stores. And they do not last long. Consumers end up wasting money in some cases and have no reliable people to fall back on. I just do not care for it. But it does not matter because they will always be around...
> 
> You are 100% correct. SS was badass in the beginning. Matt Coleman was the second owner who literally burned the brand to the ground. It was not was not easy to rebuild the line. It takes time and trust. We did it well. The brand grows every year, even in these tough times. Same thing happened with PPI at Directed. They just never got behind it. They even came to our CES booth this year and liked what we had done with the line. But it too will take time to grow. We are surprised at the how it is doing so far, and we have strong hopes for it.
> 
> What statement are you talking about that you do not take seriously. I am missing something here. And who is our opinion? Most people do not know who Epsilon is. Enthusiasts on forums know, but the typical consumer does not. Do you think that we bought PPI to "turn your opinion of Epsilon around"?! I do not understand that statement really. How could buying a company turn an opinion of the parent umbrella company around? That no sense, my friend. We bought PPI, because we know from our experience with Soundstream that we can take a damaged company can rebuild it to be a profitable business acquisition. There is no magic or any other reason we would buy a brand. We bought it to make money, we are, and we will continue to do so.
> 
> You said that PPI will be less than Power Acoustik. Buddy, I know that you know more about electronic engineering than I do. No contest. I respect that and wish I had your knowledge. But it sounds like you got butt hurt somehow before with PPI. Anybody without electronic engineering background can see that PPI is better than Power Acoustik. But I am very curious how you, with your knowledge, can make that statement. Please explain why PPI is not as good as Power Acoustik. So, Epsilon is slightly better than Boss Audio?! Wow, I do not even know to answer that one. There is no point in arguing with you about your opinion that you think everybody shares. And NO, I do not understand this so please never assume that i agree with your unfounded opinions. In fact, it might be wise to simply state that these are YOUR opinions and not use the word "our" or assume I agree. Seriously, I respect your knowledge, but you are making some insane comments. People respect your opinion, but this might change things a bit...
> 
> I do agree that there will be ceiling of quality for all brands. But this is entirely based on the economy, not our desires. We have some very cool ideas, but I sure as hell am not going to implement them until the market shows that people will buy really high end equipment. For the last few years, most high end stuff ends up being closed out since it does not sell. It sucks so bad, but having high end stuff with no buyers means we go out of business...
> 
> All we can do it hope that people will stop relying on eBay and start craving top quality and be willing to pay for it. Yeah, right! Like that will happen...


Agreed! Big difference between someone who is or thinks he is an engineer vs. realistic business practice. All credibility went out the window a while ago but the the whole idea that its barely or equal to boss audio or PA is just lunacy. I have tried to avoid this thread but I cant help but laugh at the thought it could be cheaper or even done for the same price here in the usa..... IT CANT AND WONT! Maybe if people get off there high horses and realize they need to spend more time trying to figure out how to make the process more efficient (cheaper). We are not going to beat the asians by adding man power (that just equals more $$ and more human error), we are going to beat them being more creative and innovative (production, sourcing for parts, etc....). Thats about the only way were going to get things back here. I dont see it happening, although I wish as much as everyone that it would. 
Also the thought that the asians are doing a bad job of it is also laughable. 
If you think that, then put your money where your mouth is! Prove you can make an equal or better product for less and make it here!!!! (we wont even get into quantity!)


----------



## putergod

rexroadj said:


> Also the thought that the asians are doing a bad job of it is also laughable.
> If you think that, then put your money where your mouth is! Prove you can make an equal or better product for less and make it here!!!! (we wont even get into quantity!)


Are you illiterate?? No one said anything about "equal or better product for less". Keep the POS crap in China... build us some QUALITY stuff HERE and some of us WILL PAY FOR IT. Those that wont can continue to buy garbage from China every 6 mos.


----------



## Grizz Archer

cajunner said:


> Are the ones you have left, with the ridged cones or the smooth cones?
> 
> the ones with the ridged cones had the shorting rings in the literature, but when they switched to smooth cones all the parameters stayed the same, they even put the parameters on the magnet sticker on them. I had found some different parameters but there wasn't any special indication which series the parameters were for. They did change from 400 watts to 500 watts at some point I believe.
> 
> I also have a Rubicon II 12" sub, it's got the deep rounded cast basket and the flexible carbon fiber cone. I couldn't get all the T-S parameters for it, it's not included in the manual.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for responding! It's always fun to hear about stuff "found in a warehouse" and I remember there was even a liquidation site named exactly that...


The ribbed ones that were made in Folsom California! I also found a used, but working Continuum and a pair of never used D'Artagnan amps. And an original Rubicon 1002 amp...


----------



## ToddG

You realize that you could auction those off for some nice profit for the company.  You could keep the auction to Us and still do VERY WELL.


----------



## audiogodz1

I think PPI will do well when we don't have to go to someone's attic to find the PPI we want.


----------



## rexroadj

putergod said:


> Are you illiterate?? No one said anything about "equal or better product for less". Keep the POS crap in China... build us some QUALITY stuff HERE and some of us WILL PAY FOR IT. Those that wont can continue to buy garbage from China every 6 mos.


Read the thread, its been said a few times! 
Some of us would pay for it, including me! I have and do pay a premium for stuff I feel is worth it. Not a big deal. However thats a small portion of the people in this country. What you still fail to realize is that a company is not going to start up here and charge an ass load of $ for something just because of a sticker. That said company will not make enough money to cover there overhead and fail. It is a fact and it happens all the time to the ignorant that fail to acknowledge it! 
You imply that only quality high end can be made here? That might be the dumbest thing yet. AGAIN, and I will continue to beat your dead horse (we will call him ignorance) the reason they dont manufacture it over seas is because there is not a market (worth while) for it. PERIOD! If you dont think they could produce zapco quality or what ever you deam a worthy name of quality then your sadly mistaken. They are not going to produce it so it can sit on a shelf or head to ebay to not make a penny. If you want to call it greed....thats fine. It just shows that certain people will never understand business. Its not greed, its keeping a company a float.


----------



## Grizz Archer

ToddG said:


> You realize that you could auction those off for some nice profit for the company.  You could keep the auction to Us and still do VERY WELL.


For the company?! Hell no, I already bought all of them to sell myself! :^) You really think they would sell for good money? I obviously cannot offer a warranty on them since they are so old. I have only sold ones to fanatics who know how to set up a system properly and who will not blow them...


----------



## subwoofery

putergod said:


> Are you illiterate?? No one said anything about "equal or better product for less". Keep the POS crap in China... build us some QUALITY stuff HERE and some of us WILL PAY FOR IT. Those that wont can continue to buy garbage from China every 6 mos.


It's been said many times that even High End companies need an entry level to stay alive - especially now due to the crisis (and eBay). 
Look at Zapco, they now have 2 entry models (A/B and D), Brax has Helix, Focal have Access and Solid - Genesis is dead and I think this is due to the lack of an entry level amp... 

Kelvin


----------



## ToddG

Grizz Archer said:


> For the company?! Hell no, I already bought all of them to sell myself! :^) You really think they would sell for good money? I obviously cannot offer a warranty on them since they are so old. I have only sold ones to fanatics who know how to set up a system properly and who will not blow them...



If you offer them here with a disclaimer that there is no warranty, you will probably not have many problems selling them....full MSRP, probably won't work. But, you will probably not have any problems. OR, create a new thread in Classifieds stating that you have x number of y items for sell with condition and no warranty and see what the reaction is like. Amps will probably have no problems selling. Subs might be tougher. Of course, make sure everything works before offering it.


----------



## rexroadj

subwoofery said:


> It's been said many times that even High End companies need an entry level to stay alive - especially now due to the crisis (and eBay).
> Look at Zapco, they now have 2 entry models (A/B and D), Brax has Helix, Focal have Access and Solid - Genesis is dead and I think this is due to the lack of an entry level amp...
> 
> Kelvin


Those are completely accurate and true comments!!! But in fairness to the original quote, he is refering to me saying that people have said that amps (etc) could be made here for equal or lesser $. Which HAS been said and its just false! He just has a hair across his ass about anything not made here, like we are the only people that can make anything of worth, and if its not made here it instantly is junk! Used to be that way, and I wish it was now, but NO its not that way anymore.


----------



## rexroadj

ToddG said:


> If you offer them here with a disclaimer that there is no warranty, you will probably not have many problems selling them....full MSRP, probably won't work. But, you will probably not have any problems. OR, create a new thread in Classifieds stating that you have x number of y items for sell with condition and no warranty and see what the reaction is like. Amps will probably have no problems selling. Subs might be tougher. Of course, make sure everything works before offering it.


I agree, I think they would sell with ease regardless. People buy from ebay all the time knowing (or should know) there is no warranty. 
They were classic subs!


----------



## subwoofery

ToddG said:


> ...*Of course, make sure everything works before offering it*.


Only the used items coz NIB items won't be NIB anymore   - sorry had to... 

Kelvin


----------



## Darth SQ

Grizz Archer said:


> The ribbed ones that were made in Folsom California! I also found a used, but working Continuum and a pair of never used D'Artagnan amps. And an original Rubicon 1002 amp...


hehe hehe hehe hehe hehe......he said ribbed.:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## envisionelec

Grizz Archer said:


> Ya know, it is too bad that Mexico cannot do premium manufacturing. It would save alot of shipping and be convenient. :^)
> 
> There are several tiny companies, that make subs for example. They give a bunch away to competitors in an effort to set a world record in SPL. They do not not offer a full line of products. They are not commonly found in retail stores. And they do not last long. Consumers end up wasting money in some cases and have no reliable people to fall back on. I just do not care for it. But it does not matter because they will always be around...
> 
> You are 100% correct. SS was badass in the beginning. Matt Coleman was the second owner who literally burned the brand to the ground. It was not was not easy to rebuild the line. It takes time and trust. We did it well. The brand grows every year, even in these tough times. Same thing happened with PPI at Directed. They just never got behind it. They even came to our CES booth this year and liked what we had done with the line. But it too will take time to grow. We are surprised at the how it is doing so far, and we have strong hopes for it.
> 
> What statement are you talking about that you do not take seriously. I am missing something here. And who is our opinion? Most people do not know who Epsilon is. Enthusiasts on forums know, but the typical consumer does not. Do you think that we bought PPI to "turn your opinion of Epsilon around"?! I do not understand that statement really. How could buying a company turn an opinion of the parent umbrella company around? That no sense, my friend. We bought PPI, because we know from our experience with Soundstream that we can take a damaged company can rebuild it to be a profitable business acquisition. There is no magic or any other reason we would buy a brand. We bought it to make money, we are, and we will continue to do so.
> 
> You said that PPI will be less than Power Acoustik. Buddy, I know that you know more about electronic engineering than I do. No contest. I respect that and wish I had your knowledge. But it sounds like you got butt hurt somehow before with PPI. Anybody without electronic engineering background can see that PPI is better than Power Acoustik. But I am very curious how you, with your knowledge, can make that statement. Please explain why PPI is not as good as Power Acoustik. So, Epsilon is slightly better than Boss Audio?! Wow, I do not even know to answer that one. There is no point in arguing with you about your opinion that you think everybody shares. And NO, I do not understand this so please never assume that i agree with your unfounded opinions. In fact, it might be wise to simply state that these are YOUR opinions and not use the word "our" or assume I agree. Seriously, I respect your knowledge, but you are making some insane comments. People respect your opinion, but this might change things a bit...
> 
> I do agree that there will be ceiling of quality for all brands. But this is entirely based on the economy, not our desires. We have some very cool ideas, but I sure as hell am not going to implement them until the market shows that people will buy really high end equipment. For the last few years, most high end stuff ends up being closed out since it does not sell. It sucks so bad, but having high end stuff with no buyers means we go out of business...
> 
> All we can do it hope that people will stop relying on eBay and start craving top quality and be willing to pay for it. Yeah, right! Like that will happen...



I've been rather busy lately and haven't been checking the forum...

I have no past problems with PPI. 

I did not say that PPI would be less than PA - I said it might be built a _little less marginally_ than the PA: slightly better. Your statement about doubling prices is to what I was referring.

I'm sorry you think my credibility is unworthy of discussion. I hope I can take steps to mend this. I come across a bit harsh a times. Please forgive me.

At the end of the day, this is a big industry that is struggling to find its next big thing. I simply have a different opinion about the means to that end. My purpose on this forum isn't to blather on about what I think I know - it's to present another viewpoint. This is a discussion forum; I like to discuss.


----------



## envisionelec

cajunner said:


> I have doubts about this statement.
> 
> First, you see all those high quality parts that get placed in the best amplifier companies' designs?
> 
> Well, they all went to China too. Dale, Bourns, Vishay, WIMA, Sanken, Toshiba, Burr-Brown, I'm not sure about a bunch of them, but I suspect that the days of being able to source high-grade parts not coming from offshore manufacturing plants, is coming to an end, as these parts manufacturers are consolidating and working the same profit margins as the amplifier manufacturers. I wouldn't be surprised if German amplifer companies have 50% of their parts sourced from the Orient.
> 
> I'd like to be proved wrong, certainly. I would like to see an American-made amplifier, that wasn't put together off a parts list that if traced, doesn't come off a boat shipping manifest somewhere in the chain of custody.
> 
> I don't believe it's possible anymore, there are just too many foreign bits in an "American Made" amplifier that it's like the car industries, you have to go by a percentage to be even close to correct.


Ok, we disagree. 

Sourcing parts from Asian companies is a massive gamble unless you can be given evidence that the parts are being sold through an authorized distributor. Even then, the chances of counterfeit parts is possible. 

China does assembly well. They do basic machining well. They don't do precision well. Nor can they assure *me* that the parts I have specified in my assemblies are *always* what I sent them.

Bottom line. The amps could probably work extremely well for a very long time *if the parts are exactly as specified*. That's it! The basic amplifier design is really simple. You can cheapen an amp into oblivion and still have an extremely musical-sounding design (maybe not low distortion)...but if you take chances with overseas assembly and are not inspecting and managing the process - you are absolutely risking your reputation!


----------



## envisionelec

rexroadj said:


> Agreed! Big difference between someone who is or thinks he is an engineer vs. realistic business practice. All credibility went out the window a while ago but the the whole idea that its barely or equal to boss audio or PA is just lunacy.


Thank you for your opinion. While I'm disappointed you feel that way, I'd like to invite you to message me privately to work out our differences. I think you'll find I'm a very different person than you originally thought.



rexroadj said:


> I have tried to avoid this thread but I cant help but laugh at the thought it could be cheaper or even done for the same price here in the usa..... IT CANT AND WONT! Maybe if people get off there high horses and realize they need to spend more time trying to figure out how to make the process more efficient (cheaper). We are not going to beat the asians by adding man power (that just equals more $$ and more human error), we are going to beat them being more creative and innovative (production, sourcing for parts, etc....). Thats about the only way were going to get things back here. I dont see it happening, although I wish as much as everyone that it would.
> Also the thought that the asians are doing a bad job of it is also laughable.
> If you think that, then put your money where your mouth is! Prove you can make an equal or better product for less and make it here!!!! (we wont even get into quantity!)


Well, that's the truth. It will never happen. Almost anything made in the USA will be more expensive. But, if done correctly and not out of indignation, nationalism or other ulterior motives, I think the better value will be with the products that stand the test of time *and *3rd party evaluation. I seem to remember a time when a car audio magazine would review a product and be truthful about its performance. Then, they got tactful for fear of losing ad revenue. Then, they began to scuttle away the truth in favor of mediocre even-handedness. Ugh.

My point is that I don't need to get rich on building car amplifiers. My designs are technologically advanced, but still pretty simple. My ideology is likely not found in any US-based car audio company. I choose to build car amplifiers and DSP processors for the love of the industry. I choose to help. I don't need to get rich - and frankly, I don't want to. Believe it! I won't sell false hope. My life is stressful enough - extra money just complicates things. 

Thanks for letting me respond and thank you for reading.  Now, how about those heat sink designs?


----------



## envisionelec

cajunner said:


> I think the general build quality of the plasma-fire type amps has been on the rise, as the technology continues to be copied and passed along from the innovators to the budget staples.
> 
> You saw this with Cadence, they were making cheap Chinese build amplifiers but they were using a few decent parts and a decent circuit, and selling them for less.


You know, that's a good point. The build quality is higher - but the chance for the assembler to ruin those improvements by part substitution is still extraordinarily high.



cajunner said:


> This "trickle up" in industrial design has to continue, based on marketing and profitability stuff, you can't expect the build houses in China to put out mass produced junk or else it would sink the company, the baseline for competence is such today that even lower tier product should work for a while, if not considerably longer.
> 
> I remember the moment when it all hit home for me, I was opening the boxes on a pair of transshipped Coustic carbon fibers, and I looked at the yellow cast basket, and the chromed up blingy magnet, and said, "wow, that's a lot of subwoofer for my buying dollar" until I noticed the made in China sticker under the terminals.
> 
> I said, "made in China? huh, I thought Coustic was an American company" but it made no difference, the subs still worked, even if the parts used were not quite star performers or coming in at elevated price points.
> 
> this was also the same time SoundStream was selling off it's supply of Van Gogh, and I got in on the buyout from Ubid, along with some subs/speakers.


Right. My points - and obviously I have some clearing-up to do - have nothing to do with manufacture in China, _per se._ It's the culture that drives this counterfeit industry and low-quality performance metrics. The culture is just different. What we would take for granted as a measure of quality, the Chinese culture ignores. It is not important to them - and they, likewise, assume it is not important to us. This is improving, but it should be understood that the factory can fail to produce, close up your line and begin producing for another manufacturer the next day. You aren't special to them. They may even take your products and sell them in some chopped form to the next guy. It's not about pissing them off - you're just done and the factory moves on. Oh - and "it's all your fault." Heh...RIGHT.


----------



## envisionelec

cajunner said:


> well, we sort of agree!
> 
> I believe that several companies that produce the small parts of amplifiers, have gone overseas with their manufacturing. What that means is that you can't get those parts "American made" anymore, at all!
> 
> You can't find them, and if you do, it's old stock product. China not only produces goods that compete, they do it and have been doing it for decades. When you look into an amplifier, what do you see? I don't think the 96% of the market share of car electronics, is built so badly that people are sourcing the competition based primarily on performance, otherwise we'd all be trying to get our hands on the few German and Italian amplifier products available in the European market. We'd be in Japan, trying to buy their stuff, although increasingly more Japanese companies have their product built in China nowadays anyway.
> 
> It's a pipe dream to think anyone is going to stay American with component sourcing, and if the only difference between your product and something advancing along a conveyor belt in China is the end price plus shipping, then it doesn't make sense to pay a premium for it by having Americans fill the placement machines with reels of surface mount components instead of a nine-year old Chinese girl.
> 
> You're right of course, production variables and shortages at the assembly line conveyor are dealt with, and your product might have serious issues as an occasional counterfeit batch of this or that makes it through the invoices and puts a run of several hundred pieces in a basket for recycled goods, but on the whole, you're gonna get 98% of the same.


Actually, when I was eyeballing a career with Pioneer in 2004, their extreme high-end stuff was being made in Springboro Ohio for export to Japan. Malaysia, Korea, Mexico and the Phillipines have had fab foundries for decades. China is only recently involved in quality semi fab. But that's still not the point. The knock-off semi market is huge. It is far too easy to get those bad parts into your products. There is plenty of information online about what is considered a bad part. It's not just capacitors. It's relabeled transistors, ICs. Finish is atrocious (making poor heat transfer). You can't see this from looking at the guts. You have to get down to SEM level. Or - stop wasting time (=money) and do it right the first time. My opinion, of course.


----------



## fertigaudio

cajunner said:


> I've read about it, I am pretty sure I've read several articles about it, how the finish can vary and what to look for when threshing out whether you have been hit with counterfeit transistors, very enlightening stuff on those sites dedicated to that.
> 
> I agree it's way too easy for people running factories over there to slip in a batch of cheaply sourced parts without notifying their contracted customer, and that once you stop production it doesn't mean the assembly line stops as well.
> 
> If the performance envelope is so compromised by bad parts, you won't have any trouble identifying the counterfeit-laden product after the fact, but by then it's too late, and if you are going to do meaningful product burn-in/QC at an American facility the cost for production just increases one more step away from that cheap Chinese baseline.


Good point but that is all speculation. If the company contracting the factory in China to build the stuff they had best do their homework and make sure they havent pulled any crap like that in the past. I dont see that happening with major mfgs.


----------



## trust7

So I have a question:

If there is manufacturing questions and problems with the process and the components used in relation to China and the Asian area, when you factor in cost, time, cost and time to fix, spec issues, then quality issues after the fact, testing and all the things that have been discussed, does it even truly make sense to manufacture anything there any longer ?

Let me propose a question to Grizz and anyone else elec also answer please;

1. Manufacturing in the USA with possibly slightly mid or lower quality parts with exception of a few key components and VERY well built well engineered designs, would this not yield a better longer lasting product that was only marginally higher than something made in China. I dont mean the heatsink itself or the endplates or things that getting made or manufactured in china or etc would be a technical ( or shouldn't be ) issue. This would Leave the board ic's and components in general to be built and put together in the US with final assembly and packaging done here as well. 

Does this scenario not lend itself to margins, I mean I KNOW car audio shops will sell a product they can guarantee to not fail if they are doing the warrantied installation, every shop I have ever owned or ran i picked the lines that we offered our warranty on installation, and we did not deviate from it due to the obvious loss of money in a necessary replacement scenario.

2. Then as others have said could not the other line in the company profiles ie: the ebay/cheaper affordable lines be made in China etc ?


Just make me a PC2350 or the A300 or or or, it was 1000.00 back then, I will pay it now, **** you can't break a PC or Art class PPI amp, just make them, how about make them limited editions, made in the USA, 1000 units of 3 or 4 types per year and thats it, you could probably make them for a target retail of 899 - 1099 and make some money off them and make the brand return....



Thoughts ?


----------



## subwoofery

Here's what I think: 
If a company decides to make a mighty-made-in-USA-top-notch-quality-amplifier-that-will-never-die... what do you think will happen? 

Of course, that company will first make a big reputation for being the best in the market. 
However that company will die coz they won't be selling much of those amps. Only a handful of enthousiast will pay for it... then what? 

Don't know if that answers anyones question but this is how I feel about the subject. 

And it's been said many times by Grizz, PPI lives coz they sell a lot more Sedona (entry level) items than PC class ones. That's why Human Reign from Soundstream is being discontinued... 

Kelvin


----------



## envisionelec

trust7 said:


> So I have a question:
> 
> If there is manufacturing questions and problems with the process and the components used in relation to China and the Asian area, when you factor in cost, time, cost and time to fix, spec issues, then quality issues after the fact, testing and all the things that have been discussed, does it even truly make sense to manufacture anything there any longer ?
> 
> Let me propose a question to Grizz and anyone else elec also answer please;
> 
> 1. Manufacturing in the USA with possibly slightly mid or lower quality parts with exception of a few key components and VERY well built well engineered designs, would this not yield a better longer lasting product that was only marginally higher than something made in China. I dont mean the heatsink itself or the endplates or things that getting made or manufactured in china or etc would be a technical ( or shouldn't be ) issue. This would Leave the board ic's and components in general to be built and put together in the US with final assembly and packaging done here as well.
> 
> Does this scenario not lend itself to margins, I mean I KNOW car audio shops will sell a product they can guarantee to not fail if they are doing the warrantied installation, every shop I have ever owned or ran i picked the lines that we offered our warranty on installation, and we did not deviate from it due to the obvious loss of money in a necessary replacement scenario.
> 
> 2. Then as others have said could not the other line in the company profiles ie: the ebay/cheaper affordable lines be made in China etc ?
> 
> 
> Just make me a PC2350 or the A300 or or or, it was 1000.00 back then, I will pay it now, **** you can't break a PC or Art class PPI amp, just make them, how about make them limited editions, made in the USA, 1000 units of 3 or 4 types per year and thats it, you could probably make them for a target retail of 899 - 1099 and make some money off them and make the brand return....
> 
> Thoughts ?


Welll...it's not all about the engineering or the parts, alone. It's the combination of the two. Having 5% carbon composition resistors in your amplifier doesn't automatically mean it's going to be a noisy design. Likewise, using $12 op amps doesn't guarantee a quiet one. A single errant (but well intentioned) ground trace can bring an entire amplifier down to flea-market performance. 

It doesn't matter if it's built in China or your mom's basement with a $5 soldering iron from Radio Shack. The Chinese do a lot well - but they'll only do what they tell you. Yes, I said that correctly. 

The "old school" was designed by people that screwed up the design and started their bench on fire 22 times before they got the thing working correctly. The new stuff - the imports - are replicas of the old school design minus the expensive or difficult to set circuitry (such as bias pots). They're also stuffed with mismatched (under-damped, overdamped) filter circuitry that toys with the phase response. I digress.

You'll never convince Epsilon to build PPI in the USA. It won't happen.

I think Wade (Stewart) wants to do just that - but he's looking for investors. These guys aren't made of money...and you need a liquid million to get started..._started(!)_ Ever priced a used pick and place machine? $30K. Used reflow line? $60K. Toroid winder? $13K. A workbench - one - is $800. Then somebody has to run and maintain all this equipment... I'd do it in a heartbeat. Hey - somebody want to throw some money my way? *crickets*.


----------



## PPI_GUY

The bigger point is that all of this has been done before (que "All Along The Watchtower") beginning back in the 80's. With the exception of the rise of Class D, we are still talking about a/b designs with limited efficency. Add in an onboard crossover and bass boost as bells & whistles. Before the mid-eighties no one had seen big, clean power in the automotive environment. Now, we expect it. Only we expect it to be dirt cheap. A casual search on Ebay will return hundreds of legitimate 1000 watt amps for less than $250. That doesn't include the 'borderline' stuff that _might_ make rated power for less than $125. 
Someone mentioned it earlier but, honestly you need look no further than Ebay, Millionbuy, Ubid, etc. for the demise of the demanding consumer. We take for granted that you can buy online, in the grey market, amps that make big power for pennies per watt or subs that accept all that power for around $100. It's no longer a brave new world with exploding new consumer segments.
As much as I hate to face it, Grizz is right. Performance car audio is a dying market.


----------



## envisionelec

PPI_GUY said:


> As much as I hate to face it, Grizz is right. Performance car audio is a dying market.


Ding Ding Ding.

Yeah - I don't plan to build "old school" A/B amplifiers. In fact, I don't think I'll ever build another A/B amplifier for anything ever again. Not when I can get 0.002% THD from my switching designs with crosstalk and IMD numbers that rival dual mono-blocks. 

Hint: Want to seamlessly drop into the latest systems? It's gotta interface to the car without setting diagnostic flags. And that's what _I'm_ working on.


----------



## envisionelec

cajunner said:


> it would be nice to be able to install a shoebox-sized amplifier that could do 2400 class D watts, complete with all DSP necessary for 7.3 surround and HD tuner built-in, Ipod support and full room correction/equalization, etc.
> 
> spread around, 2400 watts is easy, maybe do more than that...


It's not too far off, actually.


----------



## JAX

cajunner said:


> the Peavey IPR series, kind of illuminates the issue, I think.
> 
> 8 lbs of amplifier putting out around 2000 watts, just seems ridiculous, and without any heat?
> 
> add to that the miniDSP guys who can fit a four-way with TA, and adjustable slopes, parametric filters, etc. on a 3.5 inch square 1/2 inch tall, and you're there, really.
> 
> You could do 4000 watts in an average sized hardcover's gift package, add in a couple of miniDSP boards and a DD/DTS decoder chip and you could stuff it under a front seat...




me likes that idea. the days of big amps are history. its just finding ones that do as advertised for real. 

someone needs to do a shoot out of all these mini amps coming out


----------



## Darth SQ

envisionelec said:


> It's not too far off, actually.


Ok, you've got me wanting more info.
Please feed our addiction!


----------



## bkjay

Hey Grizz congrats on the pc 640.4 review in PAS-mag.Also the updated web site is much better. Keep up the good work. I just wish the ppi and SS. amps were smaller.


----------



## envisionelec

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Ok, you've got me wanting more info.
> Please feed our addiction!


If I give out more info, then I'm telling you and everyone else that reads this forum my business plan. Let's just say that there isn't a more integrated system in the world that does what my lineup will do. I'll be working "hardcore" on this next year.


----------



## Darth SQ

envisionelec said:


> If I give out more info, then I'm telling you and everyone else that reads this forum my business plan. Let's just say that there isn't a more integrated system in the world that does what my lineup will do. I'll be working "hardcore" on this next year.


Can't wait!
But I guess we'll have to.
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



Grizz Archer said:


> OK all, so here is the deal... Contests take to long and if we want these in house at CES and noit Junetember, we needs ideas NOW!!! So, while I do no have all of the details, we will give out 2 prizes for Best Heatsink Design and Best Series Name.
> 
> I'll work on the details. But we have very little time. I'm gonna say you can submit your ideas by next Friday, August 13th. Then we'll decide and hopefulyl move forward. Our own designer will also be woking on this, but he cannot win a prize, even if we chose his design. The prizes will go to you guys. Get on it! OH, and the ideas must be sent to me directly through email so I can store them in a separate folder... Capiche?
> 
> [email protected]


HALF A YEAR LATER AND NOTHING.
NOT A SINGLE POST FROM GRIZ REGARDING WHAT HAPPENED FROM ALL OF THIS.
YOU MEMBERS PUT A LOT OF HARD WORK, TALENT, AND INGENUITY INTO YOUR DESIGNS.
YOU ALL DESERVE BETTER THAN THIS.
WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE ALL OF THE SUBMISSIONS AND WHAT WERE CONSIDERED AT LEAST THE TOP FIVE.

FEELING USED?
SUCKS DOESN'T IT.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## ISTundra

Yup, crowdsourcing at its finest. It would be nice to know what happened here.

The only response I got from Grizz on my submission was "Freakin diggin it!"


----------



## Darth SQ

ISTundra said:


> Yup, crowdsourcing at its finest. It would be nice to know what happened here.
> 
> The only response I got from Grizz on my submission was "Freakin diggin it!"


That sounds about right.
A quick pm and off they go with your ideas.

I actually wrote a real honest to goodness automotive book for a company in the 1990's that they sent to print and sold it in their catalog. The response was fantastic, but I only received $500.00 for four months worth of writing and editing. They promised to pay me for my time. I wasn't even one of their employees; just a sport truck enthusiast. The company owner one day told me that having the book published was honor enough and to put it in my resume. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

I was hoping this thread, contest, idea forum, etc.... would have been different so I kept waiting for somekind of outcome.
I was hoping it would help the return of the PPI Art Series in some way but now I wonder if it will ever happen at all.
It's all very disappointing at best.

Now, for all of you that submitted ideas to Grizz, maybe you should consider the following suggestion. I think everyone that sent in a submission needs to post pics of their designs in this thread to document their rights of ownership (intellectual property) so it doesn't just show up in the store shelves one day.
You might even want to put your name and date on the pics.
Besides, all of us following this thread would love to see what you came up with and comment on all of your talents.

WHAT DO THE REST OF YOU THINK?

Bret 
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## ISTundra

You bring up a good points, and while I’m not smug enough to think that my idea was worth stealing (nor am I implying that is Grizz’s / PPI’s intention here), it does happen. Here was my submission.


































It doesn’t pay homage to the Arts in any way, but I envisioned a small footprint, class G/H or D, amp like everyone is coming out with these days. This one is modeled at 6” x 10” x 2”.

A digital or LED display on an angled face, so they are accessible from the top or side, which can be used to set channel gains, filters, etc. Perhaps even some DSP options if this was targeted for the higher end.

All connections & controls on one side, perhaps there could be additional inputs/outputs to daisy chain and signal pass multiple amps together. Maybe a remote level control port.

I like the copper/black theme, but maybe the primary color should be brushed black with copper highlights. To me, the copper is a bit overwhelming, but I was going with the prevailing theme here. The actual design is mine, but I freely admit I cribbed several ideas and suggestions mentioned in this thread.


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## rexroadj

I really like that design! My thoughts on it, if it were mine to adjust, would be to take away the black sections (maybe even the fins as a design all to gether just to keep it more stream line). Instead of the black accents, I would put the name and model on the amp in black (kind of like how sinfoni does it . I love the angled display (looks cool, and functional!) I wonder if for dsp purposes they could figure out a way to add in the dcx-730 to the amp. Zapco did it. I would even re-use the controler and add a port to the side of the amp for the cable (or go wireless like the new jbl ms bass controler, or old school soundstream air bass, just for total dsp instead!). I know the dcx was a directed/ppi product but I am sure it can be shared or worked with. Aside from the F#1 processor, the dcx was my next favorite and it would be awesome if they could squeeze one in. 
As far as the ideas/grizz/ppi not releasing any info on here about this project...... I dont know for sure but I do have a few theorys (just that though!)
A. I am pretty sure Grizz said on here several times that he was not going to bother coming back on here because of all the B.S. in this thread/forum and the fact that people are still so stupid that they think there will be an art series despite the several times its been said there absolutely will not be one (anytime soon)
B. The tossed the project as a whole due to funds, time, etc....
C. Maybe the ideas were just unrealistic and foolish, based on several responses on here, it certainly would not suprise me! 
D. Maybe Grizz and comp. Just dont give a ****? Personally I have a hard time with this seeing as how great he has been to me over the last couple years but anything can happen?
Obviously these are just some foolish thoughts about the subject from me, 
I do like the idea of people tossing out there desings on here for people to see and discuss. So far its awesome! IsTundra- Job well done in my opinion!


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## Darth SQ

*Re: New PPI Art Series?*



PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> HALF A YEAR LATER AND NOTHING.
> NOT A SINGLE POST FROM GRIZ REGARDING WHAT HAPPENED FROM ALL OF THIS.
> YOU MEMBERS PUT A LOT OF HARD WORK, TALENT, AND INGENUITY INTO YOUR DESIGNS.
> YOU ALL DESERVE BETTER THAN THIS.
> WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE ALL OF THE SUBMISSIONS AND WHAT WERE CONSIDERED AT LEAST THE TOP FIVE.
> 
> FEELING USED?
> SUCKS DOESN'T IT.
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


Grizz, lets finish all of this and post the results for the contest YOU started on this very thread so many months ago.
That's all that really matters now.
We're all waiting.
Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## imjustjason

Closing this one... Contest isn't happening and it's gone WAY off topic. 

New thread here...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...t-seried-amps-thread-continued-continued.html


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