# How to set amp gains without DMM?



## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Is it possible? The installer said the gains are set, but I don't know how he was able to do it without a DMM. He said he set the gains for all speakers plus the sub by ear. He cranked the music with the car running.

I took a quick peak at the levels and the gain knobs on this amp are something that Ive never seen before. It goes from 0.2V to 6.5V. He has all 3 knobs (fronts, rears and sub) set at about 0.6V which seems rather low.

The amp is 100W RMS per channel for the 4 speakers, then 600W RMS for the sub. My speakers are capable of 100W RMS per speaker and my sub is capable of 400W RMS.

He said I dont need to do anything but this doesnt look right. Sorry, I know you can't see the dials.

If my speakers are 100W RMS and perfectly matches the amp 4 channel output at 100RMS. Shouldn't I at least be able to safetly set the gain for all 4 speakers at normal? Right in the middle. The gauge goes from 0.2V and 6.5V so normal would be about 3.15V.

And for the sub, seeing how the sub is 400RMS but the amp is wired for putting out 600RMS. Just logically thinking here, shouldnt I set the gain for 1/3? 400RMS is 2/3 of 600RMS.


























Now I dont need to fine tune it, nor do I want to spend a lot of time on it. I just want to have them at safe levels so im not clipping.


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## LostnEye (Feb 18, 2016)

Basically you set the amp gains to minimum, play familiar music or test tones and raise the head unit volume until you hear distortion and then back off. Then repeat with each amp gain setting.

This all depends on your installers ability to hear distortion. While some people are better than others and not as accurate as a oscilloscope when done right will work okay for most.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

LostnEye said:


> Basically you set the amp gains to minimum, play familiar music or test tones and raise the head unit volume until you hear distortion and then back off. Then repeat with each amp gain setting.
> 
> This all depends on your installers ability to hear distortion. While some people are better than others and not as accurate as a oscilloscope when done right will work okay for most.


Thanks. But I need to have the HU volume at 75% first before turning up the gain knob right?


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## GEM592 (Jun 19, 2015)

Insert screwdriver and turn.


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## LostnEye (Feb 18, 2016)

Mayosandwich said:


> Thanks. But I need to have the HU volume at 75% first before turning up the gain knob right?


75% is an estimate. Some head units will do more without clipping, some probably less. 

But yes, if you are going to do this yourself I would start there.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Im having my doubts on whether the installer actually set my gains.

The manual to my amp says the gains go from 0.2V (min) to 6.5V (max). Normal setting (half way) is the 2V preout level setting and just past half is 4V preout setting.

Seeing how my HU puts out 4V through its preouts. Wouldnt it make sense to have the gain set at the 4V setting?


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Here it what Im referring to.

Not sure why Pioneer put the preout settings on it. Are they referring to 2 or 4V going to the speakers or to match the HU preout voltage?


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Hows it sound? Setting your gains low is not a bad thing. As long as they aren't set too high and it sounds good it's zero issue.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

One of the problems is the literature. Calling the halfway mark "normal" is completely misleading.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Drop11 said:


> Hows it sound? Setting your gains low is not a bad thing. As long as they aren't set too high and it sounds good it's zero issue.


It sounds unreal! WOW HOLY JUMPING does it sound good. Huge jump going from 17W RMS per ch to 100W RMS per ch and a 30W sub to a 400W one. I was not expecting this big of a jump. I even had to flatten out my EQ from the HU. The flatter the EQ the better right? Cause before running off the HU power, I was never able to run a flat EQ, I had to spike out the high bands because it sounded like crap on a flat EQ.

The installer said that he did set the gains so im not gonna touch them anymore. My HU goes up to 40 in volume and the highest I can put it to before it starts to hurt my ears is 13. So there is no way I can turn the HU up to 75% to set the gains, I would lose my eardrums 

So at 13 out of 40, that is 1/3 off the HU and it is damn loud. Before when I was running off the HU power, I had to go as high as 25, sometimes even 27, 28.

The sub however, I had to make an adjustment. Before running off the HU and the stock OEM sub, I actually had to turn the sub way down to -12db in the sub level settings menu. Cause anything higher and it sounded like crap or I would have blown the 30W sub. But now I put it up to 0db from the HU (where it should be), so I had to turn the gain down on the sub from the amp. I'm not 100% sure if its the exact level I should be at (cause afterall you can't hear clipping from a sub), but I feel its very close..

But Im not sure how to tell when a sub distorts or starts to clip since you can't hear clipping. I can pin point clipping from speakers but not a sub.

Whats the best way to set the gain on teh sub? I went through my HU and tried to find an option to only output sound to the sub and not the speakers but it looks like I dont have that option.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Personally, I prefer to max out the volume much closer to the head unit's max. As it is now, if you (or someone else) does decide to much further beyond 13 (intentionally, or accidentally) there is a lot of room to damage the speakers. I prefer to listen with the knob near 75% of max so that quieter recordings and times I want to push it, I have a bit more room to work with, but I know that I can max out my head unit volume without the risk of damage. 

Perhaps make marks with a paint pen where the gains are currently set. Don't adjust them above that point, but you can adjust them down. You'll need to use more voltage from the head unit, but it's safer.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

gijoe said:


> Personally, I prefer to max out the volume much closer to the head unit's max. As it is now, if you (or someone else) does decide to much further beyond 13 (intentionally, or accidentally) there is a lot of room to damage the speakers. I prefer to listen with the knob near 75% of max so that quieter recordings and times I want to push it, I have a bit more room to work with, but I know that I can max out my head unit volume without the risk of damage.
> 
> Perhaps make marks with a paint pen where the gains are currently set. Don't adjust them above that point, but you can adjust them down. You'll need to use more voltage from the head unit, but it's safer.


The only thing is that 75% is way too loud for me.

I did turn down quite a few bands on the EQ so that should create more of a buffer for me when increasing the volume from the HU. I did about 14 notches down on the EQ across 6 bands so thats huge


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

"If" it were me, I'd get some test tones and play them in the car (While wearing ear plugs) and slowly dial up the volume of the stereo until I clearly heard the tone change. I'd dial it back down and back up checking where I hear the distortion/tone change kick in. 

A quiet area, earlier in the day before your ears have desensitized/fatigued, and listening with your eyes closed, all help greatly. 

I have a feeling, he didn't set the gains (correctly), but that's merely my assumption. 

I know how good my hearing/ability to detect distortion is while playing test tones, ended up buying a cheap O-Scope to confirm/disprove to myself (I could use the Scope too, but you haven't one, so I won't mention it anymore), but anyways, I'd mark where the gains are set, then dial them all the way down and play test tones. Doing this will allow you to fine when the HU produces distortion on the preamp outputs. Once the maximum clean volume is found, dial up the gains while playing the test tones. If you end up at or VERY near the same spot, then chances are, he did have them correct, so set them back to his settings 

If you end up noticeably higher with the gain, then maybe you aren't detecting the distortion at 1%THD. I'd lower the gain back to where he had it. 

If you end up with the gain noticeably lower, I'm thinking he didn't find the HU's maximum clean volume level and didn't actually set the gains properly. I'd then use the new lower gain settings. 

Honestly, the system shouldn't be "THAT" loud so early in the volume range.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> "If" it were me, I'd get some test tones and play them in the car (While wearing ear plugs) and slowly dial up the volume of the stereo until I clearly heard the tone change. I'd dial it back down and back up checking where I hear the distortion/tone change kick in.
> 
> A quiet area, earlier in the day before your ears have desensitized/fatigued, and listening with your eyes closed, all help greatly.
> 
> ...


Thanks

Well the thing is that my gains for the 4 speaker right now are at maybe 7-10% turned on the knobs. In fact it might even be less. The gain is too turned so little you cant even tell its on unless you look close at the knobs.

The gain range is 0.2V to 6.5V and id say right now its at 1V max, if that. Prob more like .6

Its just barely turned on, anything less and im at off lol.

So i think im probably pretty safe at this setting.

But i think ill follow your advice thougb. Will grab some earplugs. What frequency test tones should I use? Where can I download them?


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Those voltage marks on the amplifier relate to the voltage of the input source. If he had them set at .6V, then he actually has them set around 3/4 of the way up. I seriously doubt your (aftermarket?) HU has 1V preamp outputs. 

And there is no "off". If it's dialed to 0.2V, it's cranked up to the maximum gain level. 

7-10% turn on the dial should actually be around 5V input voltage. 

I can't tell from the photos as to weather the gain is set at/around the "H" mark of if they are set much higher at/around .5V. 

Guess if you're happy with it, leave it be.

Edit.

Oh, and as far as frequencies, as many as you can play. Not all frequencies will distort at the same gain setting, just like not every frequency is as easy to hear the onset of distortion. 

For the full-range speakers, I'd play test tones anywhere from 100Hz to 1kHz. I found that with "my" Sony, 250Hz was the soonest to distort, a mere click sooner on the dial. 

For the sub, anything within it's playable range. And with the sub, it's "sometimes" easier to "see" the movement of the cone change than hear the change. 

For test tones, you can make your own sine wave tones with Audacity (a free program if you don't already have it)

I'll leave a couple links for you to look at as well. 

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-7AvclEeR2Me/learn/setting-amplifier-gain.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhrDqke8BKo


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Those voltage marks on the amplifier relate to the voltage of the input source. If he had them set at .6V, then he actually has them set around 3/4 of the way up. I seriously doubt your (aftermarket?) HU has 1V preamp outputs.
> 
> And there is no "off". If it's dialed to 0.2V, it's cranked up to the maximum gain level.
> 
> ...


Im still going to do what you suggested, jusy to be safe.

Isnt 0.2V the lowest setting on the gain knob? Looking at the amp, Im almost certain it is. Because when I played around with one, i turned it up half way for a sec, and noticed it start to clip so i put it back where it was.

So are you saying that the 6.5V setting on the gain knob is actually the lowest setting?


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Yes, 6.5 is the "input source" voltage, even says it's the preout level in the photo you posted in post #7. 6.5V would be the lowest setting, fully counterclockwise.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

If your HU has 4V preamp outputs, then the (H) setting on the amplifier would/should be about right. Still, that assumes your HU produces 4V cleanly on the preamps (around/near max volume). Some HU's can remain clean at full tilt (your better HU's) but many will still remain clean at 75% full volume. Cheap low-end HU's I've seen distort on the preamps as soon as half volume.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Yes, 6.5 is the "input source" voltage, even says it's the preout level in the photo you posted in post #7. 6.5V would be the lowest setting, fully counterclockwise.


Oh wow. Then that means Ive been running the gains almost at max.

Wow that is deceiving! Since my HU is 4V preouts, then just going by that picture from the Pioneer manual, that means that i shouldnt go past the 4V mark pointed out. 

Talk about deceiving. You would think turning the knob means lower and turning to the right means higher.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Just have to pay a little attention to how things are worded. 

Many amps have Min and Max with little dots as you increase the gain. Simpler to understand, but some complain they have no idea where the "X voltage" mark is for their HU's preamp voltage. Not that such really helps all that much. I mean even 4V rated HU's can sometime produce more than that while some can't produce 4V cleanly.


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## Frijoles24 (Apr 19, 2010)

when I do an initial tune, I have everything is on but nothing playing. I listen for floor noise at the max headunit volume then set my gains for my amp where I don't hear the floor noise. Then i bring it to normal listening volume on my head unit and play music and then reset gains to my liking. usually its not too far off.
maybe im doing something wrong but it works for me!


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Keep in mind that by saying your HU is 4v, that is totally just a marketing term.

In the real world unless your volume knob is always set to Max, you are sending far less than 4v to the amp.

As for your installer "setting" your gains...there is no exact perfect setting...so don't get too hung up there.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

I am not very impressed with the installer, he could have wrecked my speakers and sub. Do you guys think i did any damage to them in the 45mins I was playing them?

I reset the gains (did it on a highway), set the HU to 75% and I think I have them at a good spot right now but im almost certain im still too low and can run them higher.

On the Pioneer diagram that i posted. They mark the setting for 4V preout from the HU and then 2V. Does that mean that my knob/setting on the amp gains should be no lower and no higher than that hash mark? 

What does that mark mean exactly?


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

miniSQ said:


> Keep in mind that by saying your HU is 4v, that is totally just a marketing term.
> 
> In the real world unless your volume knob is always set to Max, you are sending far less than 4v to the amp.
> 
> As for your installer "setting" your gains...there is no exact perfect setting...so don't get too hung up there.


Oh i see.

So are you saying that even with Pioneer marking where the gain should be on the amp with a 4V preout amp, you should be safe running the gain a bit higher than that?


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Just have to pay a little attention to how things are worded.
> 
> Many amps have Min and Max with little dots as you increase the gain. Simpler to understand, but some complain they have no idea where the "X voltage" mark is for their HU's preamp voltage. Not that such really helps all that much. I mean even 4V rated HU's can sometime produce more than that while some can't produce 4V cleanly.


I knew something wasnt right before when I got my car back and could have such dramatic volume increases jist going from 0-5 on the volume dial.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Mayosandwich said:


> Oh i see.
> 
> So are you saying that even with Pioneer marking where the gain should be on the amp with a 4V preout amp, you should be safe running the gain a bit higher than that?


i tend to run my gains on the low side...not because i think its safer for my speakers, but because its safer for my ears.

Ultimately your speakers are at the mercy of your volume knob, and your brain more than your gain control.

If your system is too loud when you are not even to 3/4 volume...turn the gains down.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

miniSQ said:


> i tend to run my gains on the low side...not because i think its safer for my speakers, but because its safer for my ears.
> 
> Ultimately your speakers are at the mercy of your volume knob, and your brain more than your gain control.
> 
> If your system is too loud when you are not even to 3/4 volume...turn the gains down.


Thats true but i like to run the gains as high as I safely can, it just sounds so much better IMO.

Right now, my gains for the rears are just slightly higher than the 4V hashmark in the pic I posted from the Pioneer manual. And the fronts are bit less than that. I found the fronts start to clip a bit sooner than the rears. Is that normal? Perhaps if the fronts were smaller speakers but thats not the case on my car. All four speakers are the same size. So not sure why my fronts start to clip sooner. Not by alot but its noticable.

Right now i have the gains a bit low. I can turn it up to 75% and still desire more volume.

Going from a 17RMs per ch amp to a 100RMS, you would think i should be able to run the gains on at least half way eh. At least on the HU, there should be a significant increase in volume cycling through the volume gauge. 

Going from 17RMS TO 100RMS, that is 5x more power. So if I had a volume setting of 15 out of 40 off the HU running off the deck power, then on the new amp to have that same volume level, id be looking at only 3 out of 40. Am i rigt?


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

That (H) mark on the amp to indicate 4V is merely an approximate and even then, that's only good if your HU produces 4V on the preamp outputs cleanly at the volume level you used when setting the gain. For most HU's, they won't produce claimed output voltage until full tilt of very close to it. 

4-channel amplifiers often consist of two 2-channel amplifiers, it's not uncommon for the gains to not be exactly the same for the same output. I could easily see one set of channel clipping a little sooner than the other. 

Now you said you have the gains set around the (H) 4V mark, but your HU isn't going to be producing 4V on the preamp at 3/4 volume, it could be as little as 2V for all we know, as it's not linear (unfortunately). 

Doubling power will get you roughly 3dB more in output, it'll take more than 3dB to be perceived as twice as loud. 

17x2= 34 3dB louder
34x2=68 6dB louder
68x2=136 9dB louder

You'll probably be getting around 8dB more in terms of output. That may well be enough to be perceived as a little more than twice as loud, assuming you have the gain set properly, which I doubt (no offense intended). I can't exactly comment on the volume levels of the HU in conjunction to output level, but i'd not imagine it to be so dramatic as you are saying. I went from a 17RMS Sony to a 75RMS RF. Volume level 30ish was my "normal" listening level. now with the amp, the same "normal" level is 25ish. I set gains using a 0dB reference test tone, so while it may produce 75RMS with such, my music is not recorded at such levels. Music is very dynamic, I'm lying to you, but I'd say my music averages -10dB, so the amp may only be producing (again, probably not accurate) 17RMS regularly with music at my typical listening levels. That's no more power than the Sony's internal amplifier was "capable" of producing

Also, I don't know what your EQ is set at, nor do I know the response curve of your system. A flat EQ isn't necessarily good. your system may have a huge spike or dip in a particular frequency range that need addressed to get you a flatter response, which I "think" may be what you are thinking of, which that isn't ideal for most either. Most prefer a stronger lower range and a weaker upper range. This is probably due to the human ear's increased sensitivity to higher frequencies. 

Gains are meant to be set to match the input signal voltage, if your Pioneer with 4V preamps is only producing 2.8V (random number) when dial up to 3/4 volume, then that's what the gain should be sat at.


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

There are situations where having the gain all the way up wouldn't hurt anything; and there are situations where having the gain all the way down would destroy your speakers. There's not a magic spot where the gain is "perfect". It depends of your crossover points/EQ, the type/size of speaker being driven, and the material you have playing through them. If you're worried about hurting anything, a little clipping from too much gain is the _last_ thing I would worry about.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> That (H) mark on the amp to indicate 4V is merely an approximate and even then, that's only good if your HU produces 4V on the preamp outputs cleanly at the volume level you used when setting the gain. For most HU's, they won't produce claimed output voltage until full tilt of very close to it.
> 
> 4-channel amplifiers often consist of two 2-channel amplifiers, it's not uncommon for the gains to not be exactly the same for the same output. I could easily see one set of channel clipping a little sooner than the other.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I set them again and ended up turning both gains (front and rear) up. Now they both are set inbetween the 4V and the 2V hashmarks that Pioneer stated, with the fronts just a smear lower. 

I think Im good to go now! 

I find with my HU now, with a flatter EQ, it sounds better. The dynamic range is 1000x better now running off the amp. I still have a few of the bands on the very left up one notch but the rest are flat. THe highs are just as high as before when running off the HU for power but they are much more detailed and at loud volumes are no longer harsh.

Im amazed just how much better my music sounds going from 17RMS per ch to 100W. Its a pretty dramatic overhaul. Also going from a 30RMS 6" stock sub to a 400RMS 10" also helps. 

I know the sub gain, I can turn it up a bit more but I'm not a fan of earth shattering bass and right now it's evident enough and it's tight, so I run the gain on my sub, always a bit lower.

Thank you so much guys. I'm just glad i made this thread and you guys came to the rescue letting me know that the dials are the opposite of what I thought it was. Still can't believe the installer had all my gains at just about max. I just hope I didn't do any damage to my gear. If I left it, everything would have been blown.

What the hell was he thinking?! Cause he didn't set my gains AT ALL!

So very likely (even with the HU playing at 75%), that my HU is not putting out a 4V signal to the amp eh?


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Here is where I have my gains set right now.

Blue - sub 
Green - rear
Red- fronts


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Anyone here a fan of mounting amps under the driver seat? Thats where mine is. I would prefer the trunk, but the installer said under the seat is what he does. He said it wont overheat. Even though my amp barely fit under it (vertically). Horizontally there is a good amount of room for ventaliation, but vertically, there is none. The installer said it wont be an issue. What do you guys think? On top of the tap, it's just light fabric from the underneath of my seat lining that touches it. I don't want to go cutting up my seat but since it is underneath (no one will see it anyways), i was thinking about trimming some of the fabric off to give more ventalation. What do you guys think?

I told him about snow and stuff getting under the seat as time goes along and he said it wont be an issue.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Mayosandwich said:


> Anyone here a fan of mounting amps under the driver seat? Thats where mine is. I would prefer the trunk, but the installer said under the seat is what he does. He said it wont overheat. Even though my amp barely fit under it (vertically). Horizontally there is a good amount of room for ventaliation, but vertically, there is none. The installer said it wont be an issue. What do you guys think? On top of the tap, it's just light fabric from the underneath of my seat lining that touches it. I don't want to go cutting up my seat but since it is underneath (no one will see it anyways), i was thinking about trimming some of the fabric off to give more ventalation. What do you guys think?
> 
> I told him about snow and stuff getting under the seat as time goes along and he said it wont be an issue.


It probably is fine under there in regards to heat. Just make sure it is securely mounted to a piece of wood that is also securely mounted to the vehicle. In other words, make sure it is not just pressure fit under there or just secured with velcro to the carpet. IE can you move it? And if that area got wet, is the amp safely out of the flood zone?

Also are the wires secure? could they come lose and get pinched in any wa?y in the seat mechanism?


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

miniSQ said:


> It probably is fine under there in regards to heat. Just make sure it is securely mounted to a piece of wood that is also securely mounted to the vehicle. In other words, make sure it is not just pressure fit under there or just secured with velcro to the carpet. IE can you move it? And if that area got wet, is the amp safely out of the flood zone?
> 
> Also are the wires secure? could they come lose and get pinched in any wa?y in the seat mechanism?


He didn't put any wood under the amp, he just mounted and screwed the amp down into the carpet. I felt it and it's solid, ain't going anywhere. Not sure how he got it so secure but its rock solid. 

The good thing is that the amp isn't dead center under the seat, he actually has it more towards the back, so when the seat is in its regular position, the back of the amp will line up against the seat. In fact it might even stick out a few cms. And so that way I can access the adjustment knobs when moving the seat forward. Otherwise, if he put the amp dead centre, I wouldnt be able to access any knobs, nor would he be able to mount it.

The only bad thing is that my car has now become a 3 seater as there is no way I would want anyone sitting right behind me with the amp being there. But this isnt an issue since over the past 10 years with the cars Ive owned, I've had a single person in my backseat....three times, and two people in my backseat once. I almost never have anyone in my car period. 

I had to make a compromise and for me it was worth sacrificing a seat in my cabin to run my gear.

After thinking about it, I think Im going to snip off some of the fabric on the under part of the seat. Its so far down, that even when I sell the car in many many years from now, no one will notice it. I can free up a lot of vertical space.

I wasnt too happy when I found out the amp was in the drivers side and not passenger. I would have much preferred passengers because I almost never have anyone sitting there. My biggest concern is come winter, I need to make sure that snow and dirt doesnt get near it. But under my seat, I do have a hump that is part of the car (at least a couple inches high id say, maybe more), so that should help from stuff rolling back there. I guess I will just have to check to make sure that it stays clean near and around the seat and will have to be extra careful when eating in the car. 

If there is one thing that this guy does really well, its doing super clean installs (goes for anything). He's done a lot of work to my car and has been the main guy for doing any audio or lighting upgrades and he tucks and conceals his wires so well, you can't even see them. I dont know how he did it, but it's a super clean install and you can't even tell an amp is in there.

Looks wise, I prefer under the seat vs in the trunk. In the trunk, it always makes me nervous accidentally knocking wires from stuff rolling and moving around in my trunk. I store a lot of stuff in my trunk and at times I need to move stuff in it. And I wouldnt even mount it in the spare tire area because of loose water being able to drip down and around the trunk floor board easily. 

In the old car, I had my amp mounted to the back of the seat and I hated it because whenever I need to fold the seat down to put something in...well....ya, not really the best idea.

So in a lot of ways, I do see the pros to mounting amps under the seats.

This is the amp put in. I got it for a pretty good deal. Its $350USD right now and over $500CDN in Canada but I got it for $400 from the installer.

https://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/PUSA/Car/Amplifiers/GM+Digital+Series/GM-D9605

I was initally only going to go with a Kenwood powerpack and Hertz mono amp but for not much more (with install it worked out to be only $150cdn more), but I get a lot more power with a 5ch setup. Im a believer that you get what you pay for in car audio and you do it right and do it once. You can never have too much power, but you can easily have not enough.

Plus, this way I get the full output and potential out of my Type R's. These Type R's are definitely not your budget speaker, I know behind a good amp, these speakers can perform remarkably and I wanted to see that. Last year when I had the speakers put in, I was going to put the Type S coaxials in all around, but now Im glad that I went with the Type R's with components up front. Even though Ive been hugely underpowering them for over a year, in the long run it paid off.

In the 12-15 years of me driving and being into car audio, I have never once ran my speakers off an full fledged ext amp. Ive always ran it off the HU or my last car, it was off the Alpine Powerpack. So it still hasn't sunk in yet that I have taken the leap and taken that next and last step. Holy does it feel good to finally have that last component in what makes a car system (HU, speakers, *amp*, sub)


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Im not sure which is correct. There is a typo somewhere. On the Pioneer site, it says the amp is only 75RMS/ch for the 4ch running in 4ohms and two get 100RMS/ch you need to run it in 2ohms.

But on the box, it says the exact opposite! 100RMS/ch in 4ohms and 75RMS/ch in 2ohms.

I do know that my installer FORSURE bridged the sub and is wired in 2ohms because I specifically told him to do this since its a DVC sub and needs to be in 2ohms to get the full 400RMS. Plus this Pioneer amp, you need to wire it in 2ohms to get the 600RMS, otherwise its only 350RMS and that would be underpowering my sub.

Can you wire the sub and speakers on different ohms? Like have the sub at 2ohms and the speakers at 4ohms? Or do they all have to be the same?

Cause I double checked with my installer yesterday and he said he wired the speakers at 4ohms. So depending on which is incorrect off the Pioneer site or box, I could only be getting 75RMS/ch. That would suck. Not the end of the world, at least not enough to have it re-wired, but man, I did pay a pretty penny to have the full output of my Type R's.

EDIT: No Typo. Its 75RMS/ch + 350RMS for the sub in 4ohms, and 100RMS/ch + 600RMS for the sub in 2ohms.

My installer said he wired the speakers at 4ohms and the sub at 2ohms. is that even possible? I always thought you run one ohm setting across the entire spectrum?

Man, unless this installer meant that he wired the speakers at 2ohms but got it mixed up when I asked if he wired it at 4ohms and he said yes. After seeing how he didnt set my gains properly, I have little faith about anything else on his install.

Is there an easy way to tell if my speakers are wired at 2 or 4ohms? And if they are wired as 4ohms but its not hard to change it to 2ohms, I would consider doing it myself.

Afterall, I do have to rip apart my dash today on my own, because the dumbass, plugged in my speaker wires incorrectly. He has my FR speaker plugged into the RR on the HU, the FL plugged into the RL on the HU and so on. Like really dude?:uhoh:


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## BlackHHR (May 12, 2013)

Mayosandwich said:


> Can you wire the sub and speakers on different ohms? Like have the sub at 2ohms and the speakers at 4ohms? Or do they all have to be the same?
> 
> My installer said he wired the speakers at 4ohms and the sub at 2ohms. is that even possible? I always thought you run one ohm setting across the entire spectrum?
> 
> ...



Why rip the dash apart? Swap the RCA cables at the amps to correct the left and right integrity issue with the system turned off.

Sure you can configure a 4 channel or 3 channel amp to different impedance across channels A,B,C and D. If the amp has the ability to be configured into a 2 ohm load.


How do you know he did not properly set your gains? 

I do not own a DMM and set up very expensive systems weekly. I use pink noise and a RTA. It is called level matching. 

What is the problem? If you have not burnt any voice coils and none of the speakers are stressed, I would say the installer did his job. He protected the speakers from over powering and or abuse. 

I am not trying to throw off on you, but if you have a problem with the install take it back to the place that did the work. The 12 volt industry is very small, and to think for one minute that your installer does not know what DIYMA forum is would be a mistake. That person is possible a member on this forum and is reading this thread.


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## BlackHHR (May 12, 2013)

To answer you impedance question. Please see below ..


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Mayosandwich said:


> The only thing is that 75% is way too loud for me.
> 
> I did turn down quite a few bands on the EQ so that should create more of a buffer for me when increasing the volume from the HU. I did about 14 notches down on the EQ across 6 bands so thats huge


did everyone miss this? 

Mayo, put those eq bands back to flat. they are not effecting volume evenly across the entire bandwidth. also, 75% doesnt mean anything. that is not a volume. its literally just 75% on the head unit and nothing else. you can compensate by adjusting the gains on the amp


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> did everyone miss this?
> 
> Mayo, put those eq bands back to flat. they are not effecting volume evenly across the entire bandwidth. also, 75% doesnt mean anything. that is not a volume. its literally just 75% on the head unit and nothing else. you can compensate by adjusting the gains on the amp


yup and yup...set those EQ to flat and turn your gains down even further

graphic eq bands are not meant for broad range level matching.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

you say you have an installer.. is he a competent, decent installer? if so, leave all of this up to him and do not touch anything


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

I noticed one of my rear speakers connectors is loose. What the hell, these were sodered by a guy a year ago. I thought sodering is permanent?

Anyways, i dont know how to soder, nor do i have the tools needed for it. Can i just use electrical tape? What about crazy glue?

The connector at the end of the speaker wire looks like this.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

The reason why I say my installer didnt set the gains properly is because, there is no way that I should have had that much output with the HU just at 13/40 on the knob. He had the gains just about at max, as well as the sub gain and had the bass boost on. He said the remote was for sub gain but I said "isnt it bass boost?" He said no. Turns out, its a bass boost remote. Cause I figured why would Pioneer have a wired remote for sub gain? Maks no sense.

Anyways, if I had left my gains the way he had them, all my gear would have gotten blown. Thankfully, fixed it all yesterday.

Im just more worried on whether i did damage to my speakers and sub yesterday from the 45mins playing it.

I knew something didnt sound right. It was putting out an outrgeous amount of power.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Mayosandwich said:


> I noticed one of my rear speakers connectors is loose. What the hell, these were sodered by a guy a year ago. I thought sodering is permanent?
> 
> Anyways, i dont know how to soder, nor do i have the tools needed for it. Can i just use electrical tape? What about crazy glue?
> 
> The connector at the end of the speaker wire looks like this.



bring it back and have him fix it, or take it to your installer. from the sounds of it, id suggest you dont touch your install. no offense.



Mayosandwich said:


> The reason why I say my installer didnt set the gains properly is because, there is no way that I should have had that much output with the HU just at 13/40 on the knob. He had the gains just about at max, as well as the sub gain and had the bass boost on. He said the remote was for sub gain but I said "isnt it bass boost?" He said no. Turns out, its a bass boost remote. Cause I figured why would Pioneer have a wired remote for sub gain? Maks no sense.


hes correct, and a gain knob makes perfect sense as opposed to a bass boost knob. bass boost is a frequency band boost, not an overall channel boost.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Your amps at max are nowhere near an outrageous amount of power.

With modern highly compressed music I have my gains set to hit my desired output at about 30 percent of the radios max volume. For older more dynamic music this setting requires me to turn my radio up almost to max.

That's the deal. Music is recorded and many different volumes. Having your gains where they were would accommodate all types of music, old and new and give you plenty of volume on low level recorded music.

Most people what their systems to be able to perform to its max capabilities. We don't ride around with the volune knob full blast but it's there when we want it.
As long as you aren't clipping the signal and there isn't any noticeable noise than its fine.
Having a system capable of doing more than you need is a very good thing. It means you will always be listening within the limitations of the system and never asking too much of it. Consider yourself lucky. Lots of us have spent a lot of money and try to squeeze every little bit of performance out the system as we can and it still isn't quite enough.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

I don't wish to smear the reputation of the installer who did the install for you. I can't hear/test/measure the setup in person, so I can only ASSuME based on what you say and what photos you've posted. "I" don't feel the gains were set properly by the guy. And "we" don't know how he set the gains, other than you stating he cranked some music to set them. Some have good ears and enough experience to do a fine job setting gains going that route, but many don't. "I've" seen/been around far more installs from "professionals" that quite honestly, weren't all that good. This tends to make me doubt "professionals" when I see something like gains that are nearly maxed when the HU is a reputable brand with 4V rated preamps. With the HU at maximum clean volume, the preamps should easily be producing more than 1V, though it could easily be less than the "rated" 4V. 

Anyways, based on your new gain settings, "I'd" ASSuME they are quite close to where they should be. HU isnt likely to produce $V on the preamps unless it's one of Pioneer's upper level units, but unless something is wrong, 2V should easily be plausible. So, again, I'm going out on a limb and saying that your gain settings ranging from just over 2V to just under 4V (based on the amplifier's markings) should be about right. 

Your initial EQ settings had you boosting the highs if I recall, correct? And now, you say you have them at 0, with the exception of the lows and lower mids. I'm a little surprised the installer didn't tweak the EQ some as well when he set the gains. Such heavy boosting couldn't have sounded that good, but then again, I have (unconfirmed/not diagnosed) hyperacusis, which causes increased sensitivity to certain frequencies, for me, higher frequencies tend to be MUCH louder than they are for others, many times to the point of painfully loud. Thus, I pretty much wear ear plugs whenever I leave my house anymore. 

It's possible, but unlikely that you caused any significant damage to your speakers and sub in that short period of time, not when you found that the system was plenty loud at only volume level 13. With the volume level that low on the HU, the output voltage may well have been less than 1V for all we know. Still not sure how the guy went about setting the gains though. I mean if he played music at the "typical" 75% max volume level when he set the gains, I wonder if he has at least some sort of hearing loss/damage as I can only imagine how uncomfortably loud it would have had to been for anyone. For me personally, it' surely have been unbearable. For the record, he did set your gains, we just don't know what the volume dial was at or what the reference music was he used or if they are correctly, I'll say safely, set. 

Still, if you didn't ever go past volume level 13, then chances are, you'd have never damaged the speakers from clipping.

And no, there's little chance your HU produces the claimed 4V on the preams at 75% on the dial. foe all we know, it may not even produce 4V, it may only be (random number here) 3.61V or it may produce distortion right around 75% max volume and just after that, it does jump to or above 4V, but it's clipped. Without measuring, we just don't know. However, it doesn't really matter. Gain is set to match input voltage, if the HU produces 2.1V on the preamp at the volume level you used, then 2.1V is what you set the gain for and you just don't dial past the volume level you used when you set the gain. 

I've mounted a couple amplifiers under the driver seat before for other people. Both times it was a truck, one was a quad cab, the other was a standard cab. Both times, there was plenty of clearance all around the amp with it fastened to a 1/2" piece of particle board. And it's often that people attach amplifiers to a board so as to reduce the possibility of ground loop. 

I've never mounted an amp under the seat in a car though. Most of the time, it's been in the trunk. Only three times have I mounted an amplifier elsewhere in a car. First time, I was but 14 and new to car audio (not to mention driving) and I placed an amp on the transmission hump in front of the center console. won't go any further in to details about that poor install. The other two, one was a power pack placed behind the HU and sip tied to the subframe of the dash and then in my current car, I have a RF PBR300X4 mounted in front of the center console under the stereo behind some paneling. It's merely velcro'd in place as it fits there quite snugly and really can't move much at all. Must admit I'm surprised it hasn't ever over heated as it has next to no air flow. 

Won't address the amplifier ohms/power talk as it's been covered. 

Those are crimp connectors, not much room for soldering with those, though I've seen it done before. 

And I'm not sure what SkizeR is saying, the GM-D9605 comes with a Bass Boost remote and it's centered at 50hz. A remote gain for the sub channel would have been better, but that's not what Pioneer gives you.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Well I got all my gains set just now and not just that, but I got everything tweaked on my HU - LPF, HPF, slopes, and time alignment.

The installer from yesterday has forever lost me as a customer. What he did with my install is unreal and completely unacceptable. And that is really unfortunate because over the past 15 months I have given him over $2000 worth of business. He did my remote starter, my LED fogs, my HU, my 2ch dashcam, my back up cam. But what he did with this amp install is amateurish.

I pulled my HU this morning on my own, trying to figure out why my speakers weren't matching in the fader. I played around with the RCAs, and everything was criss crossed. When I set my fader to the front left, my rear right speaker was playing. When I set the fader to the front right, my rear left was playing. And so on. I figured something was not hooked up right on the amp speaker connections.

Took the car to an independent installer that I found on Kijiji today who is a mobile installer and also works from his garage. He was 5mins from home which is what I liked and his website looked pretty legit. 

Took it to him, I said I wanted him to soder my speaker connections on my rear speakers in the trunk. He did that.

Told him I wanted him to set or at least check my gains. He tried to do this but he couldn't because the speakers were criss crossing. The front left in the fader was the rear right speaker. The front right in the fader was the back left. And so on.

He pulled out the amp and here is where the catastrophic failure was.
All 4 speakers were connected to the wrong input on the amp. Like seriously? Was this an accidental mistake or one that was accidental, noticed but neglected to fix due to carelessness. Our guess was the latter. 

Also, the sub didn't have the negative end connected at all. Also, the phase was off. So even if the sub was fully connected, I would not have gotten the full output and ability from my sub simply due to it having such limited range in fq. I knew yesterday when I was playing music, that something just didnt sound right from my sub. It didn't have any give. So he went through all the trouble to match all speakers to the right input on the amp, fixed the phase and properly set up the sub.

Played music, he cranked the HU to max 40/40 and set the gain for the fronts, rears, then sub. 

He said that my gain setting for the rear and fronts were bang on. What! I was pleased to hear that. So I did set them right last night. The sub however, he adjusted it and I had full power from it now that the negative lead was connected.

He set all my LPFs, crossovers, slopes, HPFs, even time alignment. Turned loudness OFF and said I can tune the EQ to my preference as I choose. So now I can safely turn the HU up to max if I wanted. I never will, but atleast I have that luxury knowing I wont damage my speakers.

It also didnt hurt that he happened to have the exact same HU in his truck, so he was very familiar with the settings and menus.

Sounds perfect now! It sounded really good after I set the gains last night but after he tuned the settings and set up time alignment, its amazing what a different time alignment, LPF, HPF, slopes make.

Best thing of this guy? He only wanted $20 and this took an hour and a half of his time. He most likely would have installed my amp for much less than the installer yesterday and don't do careless jobs like the other installer did.

Our guess was that the installer yesterday, knew of and was fully aware of the speakers not matching the inputs on the amp. But instead of pulling the amp again to fix his mistake, he decides to leave it hoping I dont notice. Well, that is really unfortunate because he has lost me as a customer. And that is a shame, because he has done really good work on previous work on my car, otherwise I wouldnt have returned to him. But not after yesterday. What a careless, stupid, mistake on his part. Just careless really. That's all it comes down to.

What a huge stupid mistake it was to give him my business and return his call yesterday. I shouldnt have. I paid him good money to install this amp and he pulls this garbage?!!! What did I pay? I paid him 3 hours @ $90/hour = $270CDN.

The guy today definitely wouldn't have released the car back to his customer like that. Guess which guy I will be going back to if I have any troubles or future work? Its a no brainer.

So now we know the 100% truth. The installer yesterday did NOT set my gains like he said he did. Because how can you set the gains when your speakers criss cross on the amp. Front left and rear right were running off the A channel, then front right and rear left were running off the B channel. There is just no way you can set gains like that.

You see, this is something that you would see at like Best Buy. But a professional, long standing remote starter, security and audio shop? Who would have thought that.

And you know what? Yes the car audio world is small and there is a chance that this installer is a member on here. I hope he is, and I hope he reads this thread. Because he should be absolutely disgusted with himself in what he did simply due to his carelessness and the fact that he has lost a customer that has given him a decent amount of business over the past 14 months. I could call him to complain but I just know it will be a waste of my time with this guy. I'm so disgusted with him that I don't even want to hear his name or shop ever again.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Glad to hear you found someone who seems to take a bit more pride in their work. 

Yeah, I've seen similar from "professional installers" around here and heard similar stories on this and other forums of installers from all over. "I" don't get how some of these mistakes ever happen, I mean who doesn't sample the setup before releasing it back to the customer? I've always played around with a setup I've installed for a few minutes to confirm things seem correct. I even have whomever the owner is listen to the setup before paying me anything to make sure they're happy with it. Granted, installations are but a side job that I didn't do all that often and seldom do anymore, but still. Guess it's all about the money and the more time spent on an installation is more money out of pocket. Maybe some of them think that if things aren't right, perhaps they'll get another chance to get even more money from the customer. IDK

Nothing much was said about all the settings of your HU, which we could clearly see that front/rear crossover settings were being left to the HU, since the amp's crossovers were switched to off. Sub channel crossover can't be bypassed. 

Also, going back and looking at photos, I see the sub channel input is set to A/B, not SW, which means the amp is using the input from channel A and B for the sub channel. Switch it to SW and you'll get sub controls via the HU, including sub volume control. 

Speaking of which, did this other installer happen to notice that and change it? Just curious. 

Not looking to cover for the previous installer, but if all speakers are the same, then it doesn't matter what channel they are wired to as far as gain setting and crossovers go. However, setting T/A would sure as hell be more complicated with none of the speakers wired to their corresponding channels. 

Don't think you ever mentioned it, but what Pioneer HU have you?


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Your initial EQ settings had you boosting the highs if I recall, correct? And now, you say you have them at 0, with the exception of the lows and lower mids. I'm a little surprised the installer didn't tweak the EQ some as well when he set the gains. Such heavy boosting couldn't have sounded that good, but then again, I have (unconfirmed/not diagnosed) hyperacusis, which causes increased sensitivity to certain frequencies, for me, higher frequencies tend to be MUCH louder than they are for others, many times to the point of painfully loud. Thus, I pretty much wear ear plugs whenever I leave my house anymore.
> 
> It's possible, but unlikely that you caused any significant damage to your speakers and sub in that short period of time, not when you found that the system was plenty loud at only volume level 13. With the volume level that low on the HU, the output voltage may well have been less than 1V for all we know. Still not sure how the guy went about setting the gains though. I mean if he played music at the "typical" 75% max volume level when he set the gains, I wonder if he has at least some sort of hearing loss/damage as I can only imagine how uncomfortably loud it would have had to been for anyone. For me personally, it' surely have been unbearable. For the record, he did set your gains, we just don't know what the volume dial was at or what the reference music was he used or if they are correctly, I'll say safely, set.
> 
> ...


When I got the car back yesterday, I knew it didn't sound right. The highs were just as harsh as when I was running off the HU amp. It was bad, really bad. I mean I had such incredibly gains in volume, just going from 0-5 on the HU and at 13, it was as loud as I could handle it. Yes I went from a 17RMS per ch signal to a 75RMS one, but it shouldn't be THAT huge of a different on the HU volume knob.

Honestly, it sounded like crap (compared to how it sounds now).

We all know the installer yesterday, didnt do jack squat on the gain knobs. I showed up a little early to pick up the car and I saw how he set the gains (that he claims he did). He had the car running, volume was maybe 20% volume, it wasn't loud at all. Above average volume and cranked up the bass boost from the remote.

Your typical lazy, sleezy installer who just tries to bang out installs and too lazy to tweak the amp so that it's at least not going to damage the equipment. You would think with a reputable long standing shop (and this installer being the damn owner!), would at least care enough about the risk of customers coming back angry because their speakers or subs have blown, due to them failing to properly set gains.

I just dont get it. How can any audio installer, not bother setting the gains? Just turning up bass boost is enough? Give me a break. He was just flat out lazy and careless and just wanted the money and get me out the door sooner rather than later so he could carry on with other chores. And that's unfortunate that he chose that route because he lost a pretty decent customer. 

I mean he didn't even touched the HU at all! So you're going to set gains when my speakers are criss crossed, the damn speakers don't even match the right inputs on the amp, and you don't want to at least bring down my EQ, turn loudness off, etc? Like I said, I was there, all this guy did was install the gear, turn the bass boost on and that's it. I was sitting there in the waiting room and I could hear the bass boost knob being turned on, then off, on, then off, then back on.

I can understand that (even the most wise, most experienced) installers make mistakes. At least take the extra time to fix it before releasing the car back to the customer. What's more important, a few more spare minutes in your day or your reputation?

He should be ashamed of himself. Im just disgusted. The fact that he lied about setting the gain is enough to not make me return again. I knew he didnt set them because I was there. Im not stupid. He can't play me for a fool. 

The guy tonight spent an hour and a half just to tweak my HU, all my settings, my gains and FIX this guys mistakes from yesterday for a measly $20. Because he felt bad that I got jipped and sold a chincy install. Clearly, he was not all about the money whereas the one yesterday clearly is.

The installer yesterday was so lazy to tweak my gains and settings, that he said "If you have any questions or need help, give me a call".....YES, so he can charge me more! See what Im getting at here? Its all about profit to this guy. Do only what is required of and that's it.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Don't blame you one bit for your frustration toward the shop and owner/installer that did the initial install. Again, glad you found someone who seems to take more pride in their work. 

Speaking of which, you mind checking to see if he caught the A/B SW switch mix up? Again, just curious.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Also, backing things up a little, what did you mean by "sub didn't have the negative end connected at all"? If the wiring for the sub's negative connection wasn't attached, then the sub shouldn't have played at all and been an obvious issue. 

The phase issue, yeah, 0* or 180* will usually sound/perform better than the other. A sub out of phase with the rest of the system can easily lack clarity and authority. 

You also said, " I would not have gotten the full output and ability from my sub simply due to it having such limited range in fq.". I assume you meant frequency with the "fq".

From what I seen in the photo, the LPF was set around 80Hz (fairly common) or maxed at 500Hz with a slope of 24dB/Oct. If it was set at 500Hz, that's way too high of a cutoff point and would have not sound very good. The sub would have really pull the sound stage rearward and lower vocals would have been coming from the sub, which IMHO sounds like poop. And since the Sub channel's input was set to A/B, the HU's sub controls would have had no effect, you wouldn't have been able to lower the sub's output to blend with the music as/if you liked. Still can't if this other guy happened to not notice that switch setting.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> "I" don't get how some of these mistakes ever happen, I mean who doesn't sample the setup before releasing it back to the customer?


Cause they simply dont give a damn about your car. It's not their own car, so they don't care if you walk out the door and end up with blown subs and speakers 2-3 months later. All they care about is getting paid. Do only what's required and nothing more. 

It's just really unfortunate that I gave him $740CDN worth of business yesterday for a lazy half complete job. Because I would have much rather given that business to the guy today. 

The good thing is that I was able to find a person who cares about their work and their reputation to fix this guys mistakes and do it right.

The installer yesterday, thats why I paid him $90 an hour to install the amp. To do it right! So that I didnt have to worry about F ups and have to fix mistakes. Ive been down this road many times. Do it right. Do it once. I will pay a pretty penny to have a quality install, knowing it has been done right. But he failed me.

$90 an hour is not cheap. Most independent private installers here are $60 an hour. That is because they dont have a shop overhead. I dont mind using backyard installers as long as I trust them. Cause if anything goes wrong, the last thing I need is trying to track the person down, whereas someone with a shop, you can just walk in anytime.

The installer from yesterday has been in the industry for over 20 years. There is absolutely no way that he released the car to me yesterday NOT knowing about the errors that he made. He was just too lazy to fix them, because it takes extra time to pull out the amp again, blah blah blah. Again, carelessness and playing for me a fool thinking I wouldnt notice. 

It could have and Im sure would have worked on other customers but not me.



> I've always played around with a setup I've installed for a few minutes to confirm things seem correct.


Ya you would think eh. But unfortunately, not everyone gives a damn about their customers cars. 



> Nothing much was said about all the settings of your HU, which we could clearly see that front/rear crossover settings were being left to the HU, since the amp's crossovers were switched to off. Sub channel crossover can't be bypassed.


Yes i have the HPF and LPF settings on the amp set to OFF, and controlling it from the HU.



> Also, going back and looking at photos, I see the sub channel input is set to A/B, not SW, which means the amp is using the input from channel A and B for the sub channel. Switch it to SW and you'll get sub controls via the HU, including sub volume control.
> 
> Speaking of which, did this other installer happen to notice that and change it? Just curious.


Yes he noticed this and fixed it. Again, why the hell would the installer yesterday run my sub off the AB channel. Uhhhh. Seriously....there is a sub out for a reason! And that is why my sub was barely putting out anything. I knew something wasnt right.



> Not looking to cover for the previous installer, but if all speakers are the same, then it doesn't matter what channel they are wired to as far as gain setting and crossovers go. However, setting T/A would sure as hell be more complicated with none of the speakers wired to their corresponding channels.
> 
> Don't think you ever mentioned it, but what Pioneer HU have you?


True, but still all speakers should still be connected to the right inputs on the amp. Basic 101. What if someone wants to use the fader. Its totally messed up when the speakers are criss crossing each other. And the time alignment would have been impossible to set up.

After hearing what TA does, Im a fan. I was never a big fan of using faders. TA is probably not a feature in a HU that I would pay considerate amounts of money for but its nice to have.

I have the DEH4700BHS. Came out last year.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Yeah, with the sub channel getting it's signal from the HU's front and rear outputs and the HU's HPF active (duh, that skipped my mind for a second) you have a very limited frequency range being sent to the sub. I can easily see a sub that's being HPF's at say 80Hz with a 12dB slope and LPF'd around 80Hz with a 24dB slope having little output. 

Again, I fully agree, that mix up with the RCA's being plugged into the wrong inputs shouldn't have ever happened. 

I got a taste of what T/A could do when I bought the Alpine CDA-9815 when it came out, haven't personally used a HU in my car without T/A since. Even if I haven't ever gotten it set perfect, being close makes a noticeable improvement in clarity and imaging. Currently running a Sony DSX-S200X, soon to be back to my Alpine CDA-117 (with Imprint Processor) and I've got a Pioneer DEH-80PRS waiting to be used someday. All have T/A. 

Didn't happen to have any (immediate) luck finding your HU. Sure that's the model number? Just asking. 

Sure it's not a double DIN touch screen AVH line? Closest I could find was an AVH-X4700BS. Wonder if this "DEH4700BHS" you have is not sold in the U.S.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Also, backing things up a little, what did you mean by "sub didn't have the negative end connected at all"? If the wiring for the sub's negative connection wasn't attached, then the sub shouldn't have played at all and been an obvious issue.


The negative was connected but by a few copper wires. Just about the entire copper strands off the end of the wire was OUTSIDE the jack terminal. Just sloppy job by this installer. 



> The phase issue, yeah, 0* or 180* will usually sound/perform better than the other. A sub out of phase with the rest of the system can easily lack clarity and authority.


I cant remember exactly what the guy tonight said about PHASE, but I think on my amp I have a Phase 12db and 24db setting. I could be wrong, will need to check the pics again. But he said that my phase wasnt on the right setting and like you said, would sound like crap because it has such limited frequencies going to it. And it did! The sub sounded like garbage yesterday. It sounded like a 10W sub.



> You also said, " I would not have gotten the full output and ability from my sub simply due to it having such limited range in fq.". I assume you meant frequency with the "fq".


Yes, fq = frequency.



> From what I seen in the photo, the LPF was set around 80Hz (fairly common) or maxed at 500Hz with a slope of 24dB/Oct. If it was set at 500Hz, that's way too high of a cutoff point and would have not sound very good. The sub would have really pull the sound stage rearward and lower vocals would have been coming from the sub, which IMHO sounds like poop. .


The LPF on the amp was set to 80hz.

What slope is better to run at, 12db or 24. I dont even know what slope does exactly, it was all new to me tonight when the guy showed me it on the HU. I always just thought it was volume lol. But then I would ask myself, if it was volume, then why can you only adjust it up to -6db.



> And since the Sub channel's input was set to A/B, the HU's sub controls would have had no effect, you wouldn't have been able to lower the sub's output to blend with the music as/if you liked. Still can't if this other guy happened to not notice that switch setting.


Yip and I noticed this last night. I was in the HU sub setting and wanted to turn the sub off then back on and I couldnt tell a difference. I immediately thought, wtf did this installer do with the install. Is this sub even connected.

just an absolute shaddy install job.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Wow, most of the wire strands sticking outside of the terminal, lucky nothing bad happened. could have potentially damaged the amp and/or sub. 

Amp doesn't appear to have a Phase adjustment, that's probably only in the HU's sub controls (would be Normal 0*/Reverse 180*). The 12dB and 24dB are slope settings for the crossover, sharper the slope, the quicker the output drops beyond the crossover point. 

You mention -6dB and HU, sounds like the HU's sub volume control. IIRC, Pioneer HU's have a sub volume range of -24dB to +6dB. 

Yep, not a very good install/tune at all, don't blame you for finding someone else.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Yeah, with the sub channel getting it's signal from the HU's front and rear outputs and the HU's HPF active (duh, that skipped my mind for a second) you have a very limited frequency range being sent to the sub. I can easily see a sub that's being HPF's at say 80Hz with a 12dB slope and LPF'd around 80Hz with a 24dB slope having little output.


Yip and thats what was happening yesterday. Felt like my sub was dying. I knew its been sitting on a shelf in my home for the past 14 months, but still.



> Again, I fully agree, that mix up with the RCA's being plugged into the wrong inputs shouldn't have ever happened.


And the sad thing is, gaurenteed he was aware of it but didnt care to fix it. 

Thats like setting up your customers new home theatre and the rear speakers are plugged into the front jacks and the front speakers are connected to the rear jacks. :mean:

In most cases, I would have taken the car back to yesterdays installer and demand him to fix it. But chances are he wouldnt even take accountability to his actions, let alone fix the problems properly. Hes not even worth another second of my time or penny of gas to drive to his shop. I am done as a customer of his.



> I got a taste of what T/A could do when I bought the Alpine CDA-9815 when it came out, haven't personally used a HU in my car without T/A since. Even if I haven't ever gotten it set perfect, being close makes a noticeable improvement in clarity and imaging. Currently running a Sony DSX-S200X, soon to be back to my Alpine CDA-117 (with Imprint Processor) and I've got a Pioneer DEH-80PRS waiting to be used someday. All have T/A.


I find that TA creates a bigger sound field. I could be wrong though. But it just creates space within the car. Its quite nice listening to it. It feels a bit more engaging. I could see this really benefit when movie watching. Just too bad I never watch movies in my car lol.

That Pioneer DEH-80PRS is a real nice unit. Expensive though for a single din.



> Sure it's not a double DIN touch screen AVH line? Closest I could find was an AVH-X4700BS. Wonder if this "DEH4700BHS" you have is not sold in the U.S.


Sorry, yes its the AVH-X4700BS. The DEH is the single din version.

https://www.pioneerelectronics.ca/PUSA/Car/DVD-Receivers/AVH-X4700BS

I really like it. Though I still await the day where car HU technology has touchscreens up there in terms of responsiveness with smartphones. The pioneer is and can be laggy at times and it can be frustrating when you want to scroll through songs and folders and there is always a 1-2 sec delay from when you touch to when the screen responds. 

I know Alpine has better touchscreens but jesus they are so much more money.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Shame though that I bought my 80PRS within a few months of release and it's done nothing but sit in my closet. Could have saved myself a good $100 if I'd have waited until I was actually going to use it to buy one. LOL

DD touch screen units are neat, but "I" just can't see myself ever owning one personally. Every one I've been around in a car seems way to involved to use while driving and their screes seem to always be fingerprint/smudge magnets. Many of them were near impossible to see anything on the display in the right (or should I say wrong) light/angle, nothing but smudges and fingerprints were to be seen. LOL


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Looked at the HU you have, I see the sub volume (maybe I should say level) goes from -24 to +10. Wonder if the DD touch screens all have a different sub level range than the single DIN units? 

Also, the -6 the new installer spoke of may have been the -6dB slope in the sub controls of the HU. Seems like an awfully shallow slope, but I guess the amp's sub crossover can't be bypassed, so maybe this guy has the HU set to use the -6dB slope and the crossover set high in the HU and the amp has it set around 80Hz and -24dB to try and avoid issues with double filtering. 

Just thinking out loud I guess, the system sound MUCH better than it did and that's what matters.

Edit

Starting to get WAY too tired to concentrate, probably need to stop replying to any threads before my stupid really begins to show. I'm beginning to really make a lot of grammar mistakes I have to correct before posting, not to mention, I may well be starting to talk nonsense (too tired to tell at this point). LOL


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Shame though that I bought my 80PRS within a few months of release and it's done nothing but sit in my closet. Could have saved myself a good $100 if I'd have waited until I was actually going to use it to buy one. LOL
> 
> DD touch screen units are neat, but "I" just can't see myself ever owning one personally. Every one I've been around in a car seems way to involved to use while driving and their screes seem to always be fingerprint/smudge magnets. Many of them were near impossible to see anything on the display in the right (or should I say wrong) light/angle, nothing but smudges and fingerprints were to be seen. LOL


How much does the 80PRS retail for these days? In my old car, I actually did consider this unit but I wasn't willing to pay the full retail price of $450-500CDN.

The ONLY reasons why I put a DD in my car now is because, one I needed bluetooth and I wanted it integrated this time in my car. I was so done with bluetooth visor attachements, or any other device that you need to constantly charge or mount somewhere. Two, bigger text, more screen real estate to scroll through menus, settings, songs, folders etc. I had a single DIN in my previous car for the 5 years that I drove it and my biggest grip was having to squint just to see and work within the 3 or 4 line text. Made it even worse in bright daylight with the sun hitting it. 

Even though DD's are a lot more money, once I put this in my car, I knew it was worth it. It also makes my car look much better than say any single DD would have. I can see the date, time, phone icon, etc etc all at once and I really dig the custom wallpapers. 

Yes you are right, touchscreens are really bad for fingerprints and smudges. But what's worse is dust. I'm constantly dusting mine once a week. I have two brightness settings configured on mine, so when its daytime, I put it on day and I can see it really well even with the sun right down on it. And then a night setting for when its dark.

From what Ive noticed, most cars these days are coming out with head units that have huge screens. Some touch, some not. But most are not very good for viewing in bright sunlight due to poor backlighting. I have a friend who drives a 50K Santa Fe and the quality on his big touch screen is SOOO BAD, its almost unusable. For me, the car's HU or main control centre is the most important factor for the car's interior. I could not live with a poor screen quality for the main control panel.

The only thing is, I wish the "auto detect" mode for the day/night mode switching worked a lot better. I find it useless so I just manually switch between day and night brightness modes. I don't mind since I have the setting in my favourites and it's two icons to touch to switch back and fourth. 

Here is my factor radio.

Just a google image, but same car and same interior colour.










Didn't look bad, just far too busy for my tastes with a billion knobs and buttons. Wouldn't have been so bad if the buttons weren't so jumbo lol. Thats the thing with stock radios in new cars these days. They're so busy with far too much going on. I used this and stuck with it for about a month before (ran my music from a cheap Sony MP3 player, plugged into the aux jack in the centre console compartment), I started my sound system upgrading lol. I could never get used to controlling my music from a tiny MP3 player screen placed by my ebrake lol. 

Then I put this one in, the AVH4700BS

The dash looks much cleaner and simplier. One single row on controls, thats it...not a choir lol.










But the one feature on this HU that I really like and probably couldnt live without on any future ones, is the built in auto tilt memory. So you set your screen angle and every time you start the HU, it auto adjusts to that setting. I think every DD should have this but surprisingly you can only find this one higher end units. It only makes sense though.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Here in the States, it can be had for just over $200USD. I don't know about Canada, a quick Google search seems to say it can be found for around $350CAD. 

I agree, the Pioneer looks nice in your dash compared to the cluttered OEM unit. 

Yeah, multi line text is important to me as well, I've never liked the single line displays of many single DIN models. Never really like the real estate the stupid blue icon took up on the CDA-117, it could have been put to much better use. Luckily, my eye sight isn't horrible... yet. 

The 80PRS I've heard more than a few complaints about the display being too small. Never seen one in person, but based on other Pioneer models with what I ASSuME to be the same OLD display, it could be a potential issue.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Here in the States, it can be had for just over $200USD. I don't know about Canada, a quick Google search seems to say it can be found for around $350CAD.
> 
> I agree, the Pioneer looks nice in your dash compared to the cluttered OEM unit.
> 
> ...


I couldn't go back to a single din. The only thing that I miss on the DD that all single dins have is a volume knob. Super quick adjusting from low to high, high to low. Using the - and + buttons for volume is slow and isn't nearly as quick. The HU wouldn't look as clean but I wouldn't have minded a small volume knob in the centre bottom of the HU.

Thats the thing with single DINs. Not many rows and not much space horizontally. I remember always having to wait for the text to scroll when going through your songs and folders to see who the artist is, song name etc. And some of my artist folders, I have 15+ songs in them, so not very fun lol. On a double din you can see it all at once and you can see 5, 6, 7 lines at a time, plus still being able to see the time, date etc. 

The only thing with touchscreens is that I dont get how, in 2016, touchscreen technology being so advanced these days...how are Pioneer and Alpine not running better and more responsive touchscreens? Like the one in mine is pitiful compared to my smartphone. I would definitely be willing to pay a bit more money for a more responsive screen. But you would think in 2016, it should be a standard. for double dins. 

When I had a single DIN I always used the remote. But with a DD, I always use the touchscreen. Adding steering wheel controls would be nice, but it's like $100 just for the part lol. I know some people who can't live without steering wheel controls to control their songs and volume. Would I like it? Probably, but I don't mind touching the screen. 

But ya you are right, so many people these days are spending far too much time occupied with their touchscreens and factory head units in their cars. I just cant stand busy dashs with so many buttons. Car manufacturers should put more emphasis on putting out better quality screens and incorporating all the media buttons and functions into that touchscreen. 

But a bad quality screen would be a deal breaker for me. I couldn't live with one. Afterall, we drive our cars for years and how many times in a week, month, year do we all stare at our centre console screens right? A lot!

I know the Pioneer single dins are like 2 lines of text lol. The 80PRS screen is super tiny, its almost like a watch tiny.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

I've yet to own a car that can easily accept a DD unit, so that's a pretty big factor for me. 

I'd have to dig out the Pioneer to look at it, but based on photos, the display seems larger than my CDA-117 and it doesn't lose as much real estate from a stupidly large icon. However, it's a 3 line display vs the Alpine's 2 line, so text may well be smaller. Looks to be an 18 character display at that. 

My Sony has a 4 line display, though only during searching do all 4 lines actually prove of any use. 

Someday I may end up with a car that can have a DD unit installed and "maybe" I'll venture into the DD touch screen world, but for now... I'm content with my much smaller Single DIN displays.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> I've yet to own a car that can easily accept a DD unit, so that's a pretty big factor for me.
> 
> I'd have to dig out the Pioneer to look at it, but based on photos, the display seems larger than my CDA-117 and it doesn't lose as much real estate from a stupidly large icon. However, it's a 3 line display vs the Alpine's 2 line, so text may well be smaller. Looks to be an 18 character display at that.
> 
> ...


Do you mean because the car's don't have a dash console big enough to fit a DD?


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel,

After going back and fourth with TA on and off, Im not sure if I prefer TA on. My biggest gripe is that TA really cuts the volume down and he speakers have a bit less punch. They feel more like a surround effect with a stadium or theatre setting, whereas with TA off, it feels like I have two direct bookshelf speakers around me.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Mayosandwich said:


> Weigel,
> 
> After going back and fourth with TA on and off, Im not sure if I prefer TA on. My biggest gripe is that TA really cuts the volume down and he speakers have a bit less punch. They feel more like a surround effect with a stadium or theatre setting, whereas with TA off, it feels like I have two direct bookshelf speakers around me.


You must be setting it wrong. Time alignment should actually make it sound more like a home system as opposed to it being off

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Yeah, I'm still stuck in the 90's, all the GM cars I've had either use a single DIN or 1.5DIN HU. It's possible to squeeze a DD into many of the 1.5DIN locations with the car's I've had with a little modification and creativity, but it wasn't a road I wanted to take, especially given that at the time, DD HU's lacked in the DSP department compared to single DIN units unless you were willing to spend well over $1K. Times have changed a little more recently and now DD units are starting to have decent DSPs in them 

I must agree, the T/A must not be set correctly. Chances are, one or more of the speakers has the T/A set wrong to where it cancels out with another. 

I can't say as I've ever notice any decrease in output, if there was, it was very minor, but the clarity seemed to improve and I could easily hear instruments I once couldn't. It also helps to bring the sound stage in front of me, though I can't say it's ever been as high as I'd liked. Always seems to be coming from the steering wheel of radio location, but until a couple weeks ago, I've always had speaker low in the door on in the kick panels. Right now, I "temporarily" have some tweeters sitting (taped) on my dash aimed up at the glass (horrible location from what I've read/heard, but I've not gotten around to making pods yet.).


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> You must be setting it wrong. Time alignment should actually make it sound more like a home system as opposed to it being off
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Well that's actually what I meant. The guy from last night set it from me. He used measuring tape to measure the distance from where I sit in the drivers seat to each speaker in cm and entered that measurement into the HU. 

WIth the TA on, it does sound more like a home theatre, but I guess what I was trying to say is that I'm not sure if I prefer that effect. Yes it does create a bigger soundfield, but I've never been a fan of special effects or special modes when listening to music.

Plus don't forget if I ever have a passenger in the car, they won't get the same effect since I have my TA alignment on the driver seat (front left) setting. I do notice a setting there for "all". Not sure how TA would work for "all" seats. I'm guessing you measure the distance from each speaker to the dead centre of the cabin of the car? So then no matter who is in the car, they all get the same effect and sound dispersion?


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## Locomotive Tech (May 23, 2016)

Mayosandwich said:


> WIth the TA on, it does sound more like a home theatre, but I guess what I was trying to say is that I'm not sure if I prefer that effect. Yes it does create a bigger soundfield, but I've never been a fan of special effects or special modes when listening to music.


T/A is not a special effect. It is a correction. The theory is to have all of the sound from various speakers, in various locations arrive at your ears at the same time. Think about as head phones. Although with car acoustics it is very difficult to achieve but man what a difference. As for passengers most of my friends wouldn't even notice, but I usually set one for me and one in the center front.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Locomotive Tech said:


> T/A is not a special effect. It is a correction. The theory is to have all of the sound from various speakers, in various locations arrive at your ears at the same time. Think about as head phones. Although with car acoustics it is very difficult to achieve but man what a difference. As for passengers most of my friends wouldn't even notice, but I usually set one for me and one in the center front.


If you wanted to set it and be done with it, and never have to adjust the settings or keep shifting positions...which would you choose? All positions? Would you measure from each speaker to the center of the cabin? 

I do notice a difference with TA on, but I don't think it nessecarily sounds better with it on than off.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

listen to a proper setup and im willing to bet you wont do another system without TA


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> listen to a proper setup and im willing to bet you wont do another system without TA


I'm not doubting you.

Actually I think what I need to do is complete the TA for the back speakers. Yesterday, the guy set up TA for both front left and front right. Then when I have the back two speakers set up. I should put the TA setting on "ALL". Then I should see a difference. This way I also dont need to constantly adjust when I have passengers.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

screw the passengers. they dont care about your system


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> screw the passengers. they dont care about your system


So then my TA was set up correctly last night. By the guy measuring the distance of each speaker from the driver seat head rest.

Whats the purpose of the "all" setting in the TA menu?


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Mayosandwich said:


> Here is where I have my gains set right now.
> 
> Blue - sub
> Green - rear
> Red- fronts


Given what your amp diagram shows you and given your headunit, that's perfectly reasonable looking. At 3/4 volume your probably getting between 1-3v out of your HU, max. Your set higher than 4 lower than 2v, so that's about right.

Most importantly, your using your ears to confirm what your hearing. If you have a wide enough range to have enough volume on different styles of music, different recording levels, and nothing sounds stressed, then your gains are more or less "right".

Whoever did you install and cranked the gains to the right, I highly suggest 
not returning to them. Gain setting is pretty basic, if they don't know that, they don't know much, probably just enough to be dangerous.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

There is ALWAYS a driver present in the car, not always are there any passengers.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

T3mpest said:


> Given what your amp diagram shows you and given your headunit, that's perfectly reasonable looking. At 3/4 volume your probably getting between 1-3v out of your HU, max. Your set higher than 4 lower than 2v, so that's about right.
> 
> Most importantly, your using your ears to confirm what your hearing. If you have a wide enough range to have enough volume on different styles of music, different recording levels, and nothing sounds stressed, then your gains are more or less "right".
> 
> ...


I feel that Im set right as well, and like someone else here says a little clipping in the speakers shouldnt be a problem right? Though Id prefer zero clipping but if i go a teeny bit over on some songs, it shouldnt do any damage to my speakers.

Plus my speakers are Type R's, these are capable of 110RMS each and because Im only feeding 75RMS. Per channel, that gives me some lee room to damaging the speakers. I cant remember who told me this, they said if you match the channel wattage to the speaker wattage and you run the gains a bit too high, you will damage the speaker from clipping.

But if you unpower the speaker a bit, the bit of clipping wont damage it. Is this true?

The guy who did the initial install knows his stuff, he just didnt give a crap about tuning mine. He didnt touch a single setting on the HU or amp except the bass boost knob from the wired amp remote. He obviously didnt because had he actually did, he wouldnt have ran the sub off the AB channels and switched it to the sub output. This is just some very basic 101.

All he said was, bass boost is good, Id keep it on max. LOL what a joke of a guy this is. 

BASS BOOST IS NEVER GOOD, AND I NEVER USE IT EVER.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> There is ALWAYS a driver present in the car, not always are there any passengers.


I see on my HU, I can set the listening position to, FL, FR, Front and All.

I would like to set it to all, but not sure which would sound better, all or front.

Right now just my FL and FR are set.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Setting it to the driver's position will sound "best" so FL. This is all about creating a proper stereo image. Staging and imaging is one of the beautiful things about stereo recordings, TA allows you to get the same effect in a car when you aren't equidistant from the left and right speakers.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Mayosandwich said:


> I feel that Im set right as well, and like someone else here says a little clipping in the speakers shouldnt be a problem right? Though Id prefer zero clipping but if i go a teeny bit over on some songs, it shouldnt do any damage to my speakers.
> 
> Plus my speakers are Type R's, these are capable of 110RMS each and because Im only feeding 75RMS. Per channel, that gives me some lee room to damaging the speakers. I cant remember who told me this, they said if you match the channel wattage to the speaker wattage and you run the gains a bit too high, you will damage the speaker from clipping.
> 
> ...


a clipped signal happens when you over drive the ams output stage. So a clipped signal on a 10 watt amp is just as dangerous to a speaker than a clipped signal from a 100 watt amp. Maybe even more so because you will most likely send a "more" signal from the 10 watt amp trying to make it louder.

Properly using bass boost is not terrible...you just need to know what it is boosting, and what negative effect its having on the signal.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

miniSQ said:


> a clipped signal happens when you over drive the ams output stage. So a clipped signal on a 10 watt amp is just as dangerous to a speaker than a clipped signal from a 100 watt amp. Maybe even more so because you will most likely send a "more" signal from the 10 watt amp trying to make it louder.
> 
> Properly using bass boost is not terrible...you just need to know what it is boosting, and what negative effect its having on the signal.


Not exactly. You can clip the snot out of a signal, and as long as the power is low enough, a speaker will be fine. Clipping a 10 watt signal, and a 100 watt signal will not have the same impact on a speaker. Clipping doesn't damage speakers, the excess power it causes does, so clipping a couple watts worth of power won't damage a thing.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

gijoe said:


> Setting it to the driver's position will sound "best" so FL. This is all about creating a proper stereo image. Staging and imaging is one of the beautiful things about stereo recordings, TA allows you to get the same effect in a car when you aren't equidistant from the left and right speakers.


But if I have it set to Fl, people in the other seats wont hear the same effect and the music wont sound as good from their seats.

What does the "all" setting do for the listening position? Does it mean that if 4 people were in the car, they all hear the TA effect?


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

gijoe said:


> Not exactly. You can clip the snot out of a signal, and as long as the power is low enough, a speaker will be fine. Clipping a 10 watt signal, and a 100 watt signal will not have the same impact on a speaker. Clipping doesn't damage speakers, the excess power it causes does, so clipping a couple watts worth of power won't damage a thing.


+1...

With high THD comes more power. So if that 10W amplifier is connected to a speaker that can handle 100W, clip away mofo. It might sound like caca, but it ain't going to do damage. Dare I say the 100W clean would be more detrimental to said speaker. We're talking 10:1 here....


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Mayosandwich said:


> But if I have it set to Fl, people in the other seats wont hear the same effect and the music wont sound as good from their seats.
> 
> What does the "all" setting do for the listening position? Does it mean that if 4 people were in the car, they all hear the TA effect?


You really cannot have everyone in the car hear the same effect. You're tuning the stereo for a single spot. There are 2 seat cars that focus on trying to get the sound the same for both front passengers, but that generally requires a lot more modification to get path lengths equal, extra speakers, and far more DSP than you have available.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

gijoe said:


> You really cannot have everyone in the car hear the same effect. You're tuning the stereo for a single spot. There are 2 seat cars that focus on trying to get the sound the same for both front passengers, but that generally requires a lot more modification to get path lengths equal, extra speakers, and far more DSP than you have available.


Oh okay thanks, didn't know that. That is too bad. 

After going back and fourth between TA on and off, I do admit that it does sound more spacious with TA on. It sounds better but it isn't a huge difference.

What I do notice though is that the bass doesn't thump as hard with it on. It's not terrible, but it's noticable. Is that normal? The bass seems bit tighter with it on, but more bass volume with it off.

The bass is still good with TA on but if I had a preference I would prefer the bass with TA off.

I do now see the purpose of TA though. But for me, I'm not sure if I really care to feel like I'm in the dead centre of the music. In a HT watching a movie, forsure yes, but not sure for music.`

It could also just be that I'm not used to the TA effect and all these years I'm used to just having sound from 4 speakers, so I know what kind of sound field 4 speakers put out.

I have another question. Do you guys think adding steering wheel controls is worth the money? It's not cheap. I know some people that cant live without it. All these years I've always used my HU to skip songs and adjust volume. But having it on the wheel would be interesting. You don't have to reach out to touch the HU anymore. I guess less arm fatigue? lol.

I think I would like steering wheel controls. If i had it, I would most likely use it. But jesus $100 just for the part.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Again, not trying to defend the previous installer, but around here (and I'm sure MANY other places), car audio shops deal with more "bass heads" than anything and it's all about how loud the setup can go. It doesn't seems to matter if it sounds like complete ****, just so long as it rattles the car next to them at the stop light. Chances are, he's dealt with all too many customers who just want it LOUD. Cranking the BB can potentially do the job, but it's likely to end with burnt coils. 

Anyways, Yes, a little (minor to moderate) clipping at louder volume levels is fine, if the setup was set up to be clip free, it's result in lackluster performance. 

The preset T/A settings are just appox. settings for typical cars. Sure, FL will get you better imaging than leaving it off, but none of the preset settings will be "correct" for your car and application. To get the T/A just right, one will need to listen to the system while making changes. Measuring with a tape measure will usually get a guy close, but not quite "perfect". Don't quite know what the "ALL" setting is, I mean it sounds like the same thing as "Off" to me, as I would think it'd result in the center of the passenger compartment being the "ideal" listening spot.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Mayosandwich said:


> Oh okay thanks, didn't know that. That is too bad.
> 
> After going back and fourth between TA on and off, I do admit that it does sound more spacious with TA on. It sounds better but it isn't a huge difference.
> 
> ...


If I remember correctly, switching the positions, and turning TA on and off will change the levels. I believe even in my P99 if I switch from front left to front all it attenuates the bass several dB's and I have to push the subs up.


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## Drop11 (Jul 4, 2016)

Correct. Set your per speaker volume to where you want it with ta off. Then turn ta on and reset the speaker levels.
Pioneer units do indeed have separate output levels for ta on and off.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

gijoe said:


> Not exactly. You can clip the snot out of a signal, and as long as the power is low enough, a speaker will be fine. Clipping a 10 watt signal, and a 100 watt signal will not have the same impact on a speaker. Clipping doesn't damage speakers, the excess power it causes does, so clipping a couple watts worth of power won't damage a thing.


I realize that there is no really easy answer here, but why has it been my understanding that under-powering a speaker is worse than over powering it? 

I know that heat is the thing that kills a speaker...i think i just assumed that when running a lower powered amp you would be more likely to turn it up past clipping level and kill your speaker easier than you would with a larger amp.

My apologies for misstating something i thought i knew.


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## impulse (Jul 5, 2014)

gijoe said:


> Not exactly. You can clip the snot out of a signal, and as long as the power is low enough, a speaker will be fine. Clipping a 10 watt signal, and a 100 watt signal will not have the same impact on a speaker. Clipping doesn't damage speakers, the excess power it causes does, so clipping a couple watts worth of power won't damage a thing.


What about hot tracks? If one CD is say 0 db and another is -12db...or if all of them are under 0db's then adjusting gains to a 0db frequency isn't going to maximize your output rigth? Seems logical that perhaps 0db would help prevent clipping but when your collection is mixed like that or none of them are recorded hot then it kind of sucks.
I used to use -5db then I just ended up doing it by ear.

Also not all recordings are mastered that great, it's not like all record studios have recording engineers with golden ears or anything either...there is a ton of crappy recorded music out there and seems most dependent on how popular the artist is from what I noticed. Like how some artists have the most pristine, articulate sounding bass notes that kick and other similar artists sound like their instrument has way too much group delay or centers on some low frequency that's just perfect for rattling the rear hatch that doesn't normally rattle under deeper, louder notes... as if maybe the 50 or 60hz is a few db's louder than any other frequency drowning out the deep notes ...but I may have it mixed up on that but something about some artists in regards to bass just isn't right at all.
That's what I hate when people talk about "how the artist intended". Not all artists have any say so or knowledge enough to even be tinkering with the recording. I don't think many artists themselves intend much outside of getting paid in regards to good sound quality cause I hear some CD's that are just total crap, often can't even mix the instrument levels right.

One thing I can't stand is constantly altering the volume depending on which song is playing so I started to normalize all mine.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

miniSQ said:


> I realize that there is no really easy answer here, but why has it been my understanding that under-powering a speaker is worse than over powering it?
> 
> I know that heat is the thing that kills a speaker...i think i just assumed that when running a lower powered amp you would be more likely to turn it up past clipping level and kill your speaker easier than you would with a larger amp.
> 
> My apologies for misstating something i thought i knew.


Your misunderstanding is common, and really the problem lies in semantics. Underpowering a speaker will never, ever damage it. Clipping causes excess power, even if the amp is only capable of 50 watts clean output, it is capable of much more clipped power. Clipping a 50 watt amp will put a lot more power to the speaker than 50 watts, and the clipped wave limits the speakers ability to cool itself. 

The misunderstand comes because it is easy to damage a speaker by hooking it up to an underpowered amp, but not because you are underpowering the speaker, but because to get more output people crank the gain to past clipping, which again, gives the speaker much more than 50 watts. 

So, an underpowered amp is dangerous not because it's possible to underpower a speaker, but because a low powered amp is more likely to be pushed into severe clipping, which will cause much more (dirty) power to go to the speaker. 

I understand that it's semantics, but semantics are important, you simply cannot damage a speaker by underpowering it.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

"If" underpowering a driver were to cause damage, no one would ever turn their HU's down from the maximum volume level (if using internal power) or down below the level used when they set their amplifier gain, as they'd damage their speakers. 

And as said, it's thermal issue, which because of such, one could easily wire (say a 1000RMS 4 ohm) sub directly to their HU and play a square wave without ever causing any thermal damage to it, but it'd sound god awful. No idea what sort of spike in output would happen, but it'd be nowhere near the 1000RMs handling of the subwoofer. Maybe a 20RMS HU amp would produce a 100W clipped output, I don't know. 

Thermal damage can occur from using a more powerful amplifier feeding a driver more than rated power, but it'd take far longer to burn up the voice coil (unless it's ridiculously over powering) than using an amplifier capable of only produce half the driver's rated power handling and pushing said amp into clipping.


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## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

gijoe said:


> Clipping causes excess power, even if the amp is only capable of 50 watts clean output, it is capable of much more clipped power.


+1

And therein is where I think people get lost/don't understand. They read the number on the box and assume that's the maximum amount of power it can ever produce. But I'm sure you've all read a little closer where it qualifies that figure. 100W RMS x 1 @ 2 ohm @ 14.4V @<1% THD. If you crank it past 1% THD, it will produce more power. In many cases, a lot more power, given strong enough input signal/enough gain knob.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Im a bit worried here. I perhaps may be regretting getting such a high output amp in the car. 

The alternator in my car is only 130amps. But a car’s alternator does not produce peak output until the rpm are above 2,000. At idle it may produce no more than 40 amps, and most of that may be required to power the ignition system, computer, electric pumps, headlights, etc. If you are at idle or just tooling around town at 1,600 rpm with the volume high, no alternator may have enough output to refill the battery as it powers your big-amp audio system. 

Your battery will discharge whatever it needs to power what you ask it to do; seats heaters, big stereo, etc. How long can it do that is the question. Can the alternator recharge the battery before it goes dead? If you draw out power faster than the alternator can refill it, you have a long term problem. 

So my amp is 75 watts per channel with four channels and another 600 watts for sub output (though my sub is only 400RMS). That makes 900w total ((75w X 4) + 600w). So let’s double that (900w X 2) = 1800w. Divide by 13.8v = 130amps. Divide that by 3 = 43amps. By this metric my car amplifier will draw about 43 amps. (Maybe?)

It can also be estimated this way.

•	watts = amps X voltage
•	amps = watts/voltage
•	amps = 900w/13.8v
•	amps = 65

By this measure my amplifier should draw no more than 65 amps. Either way, it is still more than what my alternator will produce at low rpm. Running music at low volume with the car off is not a problem for me. Ive been doing this for years. I never ever listen to loud music with the car off. But now that I found out that I most likely will not be able to listen to loud music with the car off idling, without overworking the alternator...well thats not good.

So tomorow Im going back to the guy who properly set my gains and he is putting in a deep cycle small battery. Ive been wanting to put one in my car for about 8 months now because I have a 2ch dashcam and LED fogs (that connect off the battery terminals) and they parasite draw. Especially since my dashcam is a front and back (2x the draw) and I run parking mode so the cams are always running. 

Once I install a small deep cycle battery, then those parasite draws will run off it and not my main car battery.

Are car amps parasite draws on the car battery even when the car is off?

I really Really don't want to have to get a high output alternator. Im hoping by installing a small deep cycle battery it will allow me to run this amp in my car and not have to upgrade my alternator.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Mayosandwich said:


> Im a bit worried here. I perhaps may be regretting getting such a high output amp in the car.
> 
> The alternator in my car is only 130amps. But a car’s alternator does not produce peak output until the rpm are above 2,000. At idle it may produce no more than 40 amps, and most of that may be required to power the ignition system, computer, electric pumps, headlights, etc. If you are at idle or just tooling around town at 1,600 rpm with the volume high, no alternator may have enough output to refill the battery as it powers your big-amp audio system.
> 
> ...


i have an 80 amp alternator and a larger amp than you have. 100x4 plus 1200 x1 ( 1 ohm sub ). I just run a single yellow top, no second battery. Not problems at all for over 2 years.


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## brother_c (Sep 21, 2015)

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. Really good installers can set amps gain without a dmm, but only because they've probably installed that head unit and amplifier tons of times.

My local shop they don't sell a crazy amount of different head units. About ten different models in stock. And every one of them they have looked at the outputs on an oscope playing a test tone. So they know the max volume without clipping. 

Setting the gains on an amplifier can be very subjective though... They are often set with gain overlap, so effectively you are getting close to or possibly clipping depending on the amount of overlap. The load of the speaker causes the voltage to sag in the amps power supply and this can cause distortion that you wouldn't see on an oscilloscope because there's a very very very tiny fraction of a load on the amp when it's only connected to a measurement device. Some amplifiers will clip at lower gain levels with a lower input voltage (from the battery/alternator.) So is there a value or formula for the exact setting... too many variables and as said before don't lose sleep over a couple degrees on the input sensitivity controls my friend.

If someone installs 150 systems a year for years and uses the same demo cd and sells a product they are very familiar with, they can easily set the gains without any measurement tools. If you can find that kind of person you can trust it is invaluable. Too bad about your experience hope things get all ironed out.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Don't worry so much about the amperage draw of your current system. I've ran every bit as powerful setups as you are now with completely stock electrical. Every GM car I've has has had a 105AMP alternator. 

Unless you always have the system cranked, I seriously doubt you'll ever have any issues. 

And many people have ran more powerful setups without any major issues, miniSQ even spoke up about his more powerful setup with an even weaker charging system. 

Unless you notice severe headlight dimming, you're unlikely to be having any issues.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

miniSQ said:


> i have an 80 amp alternator and a larger amp than you have. 100x4 plus 1200 x1 ( 1 ohm sub ). I just run a single yellow top, no second battery. Not problems at all for over 2 years.


Okay, but Im still putting in a small deep cycle battery because of my dash cams parking mode and LED fog lights. Those two are my two parasite draws (the LED fogs surprisingly draw more power). Runing the small battery off an isolator.

I might even replace my battery just for peace of mind in having a new one with zero deep discharges (its under warranty anyways so I should be able to swap it over the counter at costco). Its only 5 months old. But over the 5 months, it discharged every time the car was off from 12.63V to 12.4V from the LED fogs and dashcam being the two parasite draws.

It still bothers me when my main lead acid battery discharges from 12.63V (fully charged) to 12.4V every time i have the car off.

And since ill have a small deep cycle battery, then I might as well have my audio run off it as well.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Okay after looking into a battery isolator + deep cycle battery I'm not so sure it's the best way to go. 

For one, I hear that isolators are hard on alternators due to it always drawing current and voltage from it even with the car off. 

Two, these isolaters are pretty damn big. I dont even think one would fit in the hood of my car and i really dont wanna be putting this stuff in my trunk. Also, isolators are not cheap. A good 120amp one you are looking at $80-100cdn.

So I thought, why not just scrap the isolator + deep cycle battery idea altogether and upgrade my current Costco (Kirkland) main lead acid battery to a AGM one like Yellow Top? That way my main (and only) battery will at least be able to handle deep cycles.

Then the third option is to just stick with what I got now and plan on replacing the battery yearly. I say yearly because these Costco batteries have a great warranty and I dont want to wait until I break down somewhere before i replace it, so factor in battery replacements as a maintenance routine for my car.

I know yearly may sound a bit too much but my last battery (walmart brand) died in 10 months and that was just from running my dashcams parking mode off it.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Your amp isn't particularly powerful, comparatively speaking. You ran your numbers based on 900 watts, which will likely never happen. It doesn't take much power for average listening levels, and the odds of you using all 900 watts at a given moment are pretty low.

I wouldn't be too concerned with the current draw.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

gijoe said:


> Your amp isn't particularly powerful, comparatively speaking. You ran your numbers based on 900 watts, which will likely never happen. It doesn't take much power for average listening levels, and the odds of you using all 900 watts at a given moment are pretty low.
> 
> I wouldn't be too concerned with the current draw.


Okay, but I most likely would still benefit from a battery upgrade. 

Northstars are $325cdn here, but it puts out 760CCA, has 115min AH, 4 yr warranty, is marketed as a 10 year battery (whether it can last it is doubtful and is a AGM deep discharge battery that can handle 500 complete charge and discharge cycles or 1000 cycles down to 20%.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

If you chose the3 correct isolator, it is neither hard on the car or huge...or expensive. But its also not needed You can run a second small batt next to the amp in parallel with your charging system, but that not needed either...just get a nice charging batter to handle your car and amp and be done with it...keep it simple until you have a problem. Don't go looking for one.

https://jet.com/product/detail/0960...15&gclid=CNmakcjbo84CFUGFNwodH9QC2w&gclsrc=ds


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

miniSQ said:


> If you chose the3 correct isolator, it is neither hard on the car or huge...or expensive. But its also not needed You can run a second small batt next to the amp in parallel with your charging system, but that not needed either...just get a nice charging batter to handle your car and amp and be done with it...keep it simple until you have a problem. Don't go looking for one.
> 
> https://jet.com/product/detail/0960...15&gclid=CNmakcjbo84CFUGFNwodH9QC2w&gclsrc=ds


In other words, upgrade the car battery.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Mayosandwich said:


> In other words, upgrade the car battery.


correct....the rest is not needed. There is a video out there that manville smith did that talks about system building. He says that adding a second battery is the worst thing you can do for your car.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

miniSQ said:


> correct....the rest is not needed.


Damn. 

Was really hoping to not drop money om a new battery. Guess the costco $100 lead acid wont do eh? Lol. It will but like I said, I better prepare for yearly replacements.

Im heading to the guys house in a bit here as he is going to do a test to see how much power my 2 way remote starter and my dashcams are drawing when the car is off.

So the two Agm batteries that ive gathered from calling today is the 

DEKA instigator
680CCA
100 mins reserve
39lbs
3 year warranty
$220CDN

Or

Northstar (which is an Odyssey)
740CCA
115Mins reserve
49lbs (also 6" longer in length, not sure if itll fit in my car cause of the bracket that goes around the battery
4yr warranty
$325CDN
Marketed as a 10 year battery

49lbs is ridiculously heavy, Id get les gas milage.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

When i said upgrade the car battery, i meant if you want too. Its not a "must".


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

miniSQ said:


> When i said upgrade the car battery, i meant if you want too. Its not a "must".


Oh okay. Whats the main benefits with a stronger battery?

Less strain on the alternator?


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Battery is merely a storage vessel, a larger one gives you more reserve power for when the system is demanding more amperage than the alternator is producing, which shouldn't be very often. Music is dynamic, even with the system cranked, you'd be lucky to ever have 900RMS being produced by the amplifiers (combined) for more than a couple milliseconds unless you're blasting test tones or pink noise.


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## impulse (Jul 5, 2014)

brother_c said:


> Sorry to hear about your bad experience. Really good installers can set amps gain without a dmm, but only because they've probably installed that head unit and amplifier tons of times.
> .


Most all just use SMD's DD anymore. Some amps even have their own built in.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

At least one of my local shops has two DD-1's and an O-Scope, but a friend of mine that was working there told me they don't use them unless a customer specifically requests them to do so. 

However, there is no indication they have either and they don't notify any customers of having them.

I asked if they even use either of these tools and he said it looked like they all had a nice layer of dust on them like they hadn't been touched in ages. 

So, one of my local shops does have them, but they don't seem to use them. LOL


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Battery is merely a storage vessel, a larger one gives you more reserve power for when the system is demanding more amperage than the alternator is producing, which shouldn't be very often. Music is dynamic, even with the system cranked, you'd be lucky to ever have 900RMS being produced by the amplifiers (combined) for more than a couple milliseconds unless you're blasting test tones or pink noise.


Sounds to me like the AGM battery is not worth it.

The guy did some tests tonight and my parasite draw of over 35ma is......my 2 way remote starter. Its that damn little remote that is constantly sending and receiving signals from the receiver in the car. Oh well, nothing I can do about it. I couldn't go back to a 1 way.

My 2ch dashcam running in parking mode drew pretty much nothing.

The guy tonight said that my lead acid battery right now from Costco (640CCA) is good enough and yes it won't last as long as an AGM, and yes I will have to replace it more often, but I have the costco warranty, so I have nothing to worry about. He said that he would just stick with it and not bother with an AGM battery.

My only reason for wanting an AGM battery was to have the battery last longer than a lead acid from the accesories. But now after the testing, we know its the remote starter that is the culprit and not the dashcam. Will an AGM battery last longer than the Costco one? Yes. But its $200+. I should just stick with the Costco one and suck it up that I will have to make more frequent replacements. The warranty covers me anyways and I keep a portable jumper pack in my car where I can boost my car without needing another car to boost from.

I just hope my alternator doesn't get overworked. Now IF having an AGM battery would lessen the strain and load on the alternator, THEN I would get an AGM battery. But really, I never listen to the stereo with my car off at loud volumes anyways, and I rarely do it even at low volumes, so I should save my money.

Will a car amp parasite any draw from the battery when the amp and car is off?


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

i'll say this about the northstar :

it is AWESOME in our canadian winters. 
if you want a good start at 40 below they cannot be beaten. 

installed mine about three years ago, strong, very strong. 
they also have brass terminals, and no more crusties on the posts. 
the terminals also lend themselves well to marine grade clamps for your
power wire. 

in my case it was totally worth the extra $$$.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

lurch said:


> i'll say this about the northstar :
> 
> it is AWESOME in our canadian winters.
> if you want a good start at 40 below they cannot be beaten.
> ...


Thanks for your feedback. Any feedback as to how you found the Northstar benefited your car audio and electrical system?

Unfortunately the North Star wont fit in my car.


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

yeah, they have a large case. 

ok, audio benefits :
- i noticed right away that voltage was strong & steady at hi output levels. 
-more " clarity " at high output levels ( yes i did notice this ). 
-the charge rate is faster. 
-the discharge rate is faster, meaning more current availlable faster. 
-my total amp power is approx 1500 watts rms, and i have no fear of
cranking my system without the engine running, the voltage is steady at
around 12.8 for a long time ( sorry, never timed it ). i know its time to quit
messing around when it finally hits 12.4 or so on the meter. 
then it starts the 350cuin chevy instantly. 


i don't have to worry if there is enough juice, i have never gone below
12.2 volts, it just keeps goin. 

peace of mind. 

keep in mind that i drive a 9 passenger suburban, a totally different
vehicle and a far bigger battery. results may vary .... ( LoL )


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

lurch said:


> yeah, they have a large case.
> 
> ok, audio benefits :
> - i noticed right away that voltage was strong & steady at hi output levels.
> ...


Interesting. I'm surprised the Northstar brought more clarity to the system. I wonder how a battery could do that. I'm guessing you meant with the car off?

I was told the biggest benefit in having a bigger battery is being able to play your music louder for longer with the car off. But if I never do this, then its kinda a waste of money to get an AGM.

The reserve time and discharge rate is ultimately the numbers to look for and the Deka Instigator and the Northstar at only 100mins and 115mins vs 90mins on the OEM. Not that much slower for discharging. Even when I was talking with the guys at EastPenn selling the Deka AGM batteries, even they were questioning on whether it's worth my $220 to drop on their battery as they didn't see it as a huge improvement over my Costco lead acid.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Battery is merely a storage vessel, a larger one gives you more reserve power for when the system is demanding more amperage than the alternator is producing, which shouldn't be very often. Music is dynamic, even with the system cranked, you'd be lucky to ever have 900RMS being produced by the amplifiers (combined) for more than a couple milliseconds unless you're blasting test tones or pink noise.


After much thinking over the past week about AGM batteries, Ive decided to just stick with my $90 Kirkland battery at Costco.

AGM is great, but for one I just can't justify the cost (300% price premium), and for what I'm pushing (900RMS), I don't think I need it. Like you said, even with my system cranked and loaded with the headlights on etc...I highly doubt I even come close to 900RMS.

And as for me being able to crank my music with the car off, well it strains your alternator anyways when you turn the car on to recharge your battery and I would rather not do that often. 

NOW, IF agm batteries make your sound system sound better and more power, THEN I would really consider putting one in.

I have a 3 year warranty on my Costco battery and 4 more years prorated after that, so I will just run in once a year to change my battery for a new one and I should be good.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

It "may" allow voltage to remain more consistent at the amplifier, but you shouldn't be getting sever enough voltage to be causing any issues with the wet cell battery. 

I've not ever personally used an AGM so I can't speak from experience on how much of a difference it might actually make, but I have some doubts it will make enough of a difference to justify the purchase. 

I feel the money would be better spent upgrading some of the OEM wiring for the electrical system.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> It "may" allow voltage to remain more consistent at the amplifier, but you shouldn't be getting sever enough voltage to be causing any issues with the wet cell battery.
> 
> I've not ever personally used an AGM so I can't speak from experience on how much of a difference it might actually make, but I have some doubts it will make enough of a difference to justify the purchase.
> 
> I feel the money would be better spent upgrading some of the OEM wiring for the electrical system.


Too bad I couldn't throw one in my car for 10mins to see if it would make my system sound better. I wish I could do this, it would really determine for me on whether AGM is worth it for me.

I, like you, am doubtful on whether I would benefit from it. Since I'm running a 2 way remote starter on it 24/7, I would, but how much is questionable. Definitely not enough to warrant spending $350 on an AGM. Possibly $220 though for the Napa one. 

But I have a great Costco battery right now and am covered for the next 6.5 years (2.5 years more of 100% coverage, then 4 years pro rated) and I keep a portable jumper pack in my trunk at all times. So if I were to break down, I can boost myself without needing another car. And drive to Costco for a new battery.

Because I thought to myself the other day. What if I bought the $350 Northstar (comes with 4 year warranty, 100% coverage), and then it dies right after 4 years? It would need to fork out full price for another. I would suck if I paid $350 for a performance battery and it only lasted just over 4 years. $350 for 4 years = $90/ year for a freakin car battery! Yikes. 

Whereas with the Costo battery it would be $90 for 3 batteries since I will be replacing them once a year. 3 batteries for $90 = $30/ year.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Don't recall if you've ever looked to see how much dimming you get with your lights. I don't think you've measured the voltage at the amplifier to see what sort of voltage drop you're getting. 

There are many on here who have ran and/or do run more powerful setups without any issues using a standard wet cell battery and no electrical upgrades.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Don't recall if you've ever looked to see how much dimming you get with your lights. I don't think you've measured the voltage at the amplifier to see what sort of voltage drop you're getting.
> 
> There are many on here who have ran and/or do run more powerful setups without any issues using a standard wet cell battery and no electrical upgrades.


I would do this but I can't because I can't access the amp terminals aside from the RCAs due to it being under the seat. 

Can I do the test by just loading the car at night? Turning on the HIDs, fogs, A/C, HU up to 75%, while idling the car.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

That would definitely reveal how insufficient your electrical system may be. I'd actually be a bit surprised if you didn't get quite noticeable dimming doing such, at least with the AC on max.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> That would definitely reveal how insufficient your electrical system may be. I'd actually be a bit surprised if you didn't get quite noticeable dimming doing such, at least with the AC on max.


I will do a load test, (but cant' check the voltage at the amp terminals). If I got dimming, wouldn't that mean that my alternator isn't putting out enough power? I don't get how adding an AGM battery would fix it.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Depending on how bad the dimming is, an AGM battery "may" help. It'll discharge faster, thus potentially help maintain a steadier voltage to the amplifier and with a larger capacitance, it'll have plenty of reserve power for when the system starts to really demand some power. When demand drops, the battery would begin being charged again instead of drained. 

Me, I'd try using what you have, chances are you'll have to be pushing things a bit hard to get quite noticeable dimming. 

Let us know what you find.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Depending on how bad the dimming is, an AGM battery "may" help. It'll discharge faster, thus potentially help maintain a steadier voltage to the amplifier and with a larger capacitance, it'll have plenty of reserve power for when the system starts to really demand some power. When demand drops, the battery would begin being charged again instead of drained.
> 
> Me, I'd try using what you have, chances are you'll have to be pushing things a bit hard to get quite noticeable dimming.
> 
> Let us know what you find.


How long do I need to have it run fully loaded for?

I did it for 2mins on a bassy song, car idling, HU at 80% volume, AC on full, Headlights and fogs on, no dimming.

My car idles at just 700rpm's. Im shocked the alternator isn't getting over strained. It's not right?


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## Catalyx (Oct 13, 2011)

On the original topic, I think this page is a nice guide for setting gains:

How to Properly Set Your Gains (Gain Tutorial)


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Mayosandwich said:


> How long do I need to have it run fully loaded for?
> 
> I did it for 2mins on a bassy song, car idling, HU at 80% volume, AC on full, Headlights and fogs on, no dimming.
> 
> My car idles at just 700rpm's. Im shocked the alternator isn't getting over strained. It's not right?


700RPM idle does seem a little high, may need to reset the idle process. Don't recall the car you hve, but I know many cars used to need to relearn their idle after having the battery disconnected/drained to a point of a dead battery. Pretty sure the process was just to start the car and let it sit for a matter of minutes. 

If one were to not wait, then it could result in the car idling fast. 

Just a thought. 

Anyways, from the sound of it, I'd have no immediate worries about the current battery and charging system being insufficient.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> 700RPM idle does seem a little high, may need to reset the idle process. Don't recall the car you hve, but I know many cars used to need to relearn their idle after having the battery disconnected/drained to a point of a dead battery. Pretty sure the process was just to start the car and let it sit for a matter of minutes.
> 
> If one were to not wait, then it could result in the car idling fast.
> 
> ...


My rpms at idle are really low, I think maybe even 600rpm (2011 Accord). On my old car, my rpms at idle was 1500 lol.

You're right, it sounds like I don't need an AGM battery and wouldn't benefit very much from one. 

Im pretty surprised that I dont get any dimming at all.

That must mean that my 130amp alternator is sufficient and two, I'm not putting out a true 900RMS when at 75% volume.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

My current and last car idled around 500RPM. 

Yeah, music is very dynamic, you'd have to set your gains using a heavily attenuated test tone to get close to rated power from the amplifiers regularly, but that would result frequent clipping. 

Anyways, I'd go role with it and be happy.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> My current and last car idled around 500RPM.


What kind of car?



> Yeah, music is very dynamic, you'd have to set your gains using a heavily attenuated test tone to get close to rated power from the amplifiers regularly, but that would result frequent clipping.
> 
> Anyways, I'd go role with it and be happy.


That's what the guy who set my gains and HU said as well. He said to just stick with what I got right now - the Costco battery. I plan on replacing it once a year anyways, so I should be safe.

My biggest worry was more so about my alternator getting overworked but from the looks of it, I don't have to worry. If it was getting overworked, Im sure the lights would be dimming with a full load eh?

I have a portable jumper pack stored in my spare tire compartment if I ever break down (I think everyone should have this in their cars). No more need to call people to come boost you. Before I would always call up mobile mechanics to come give me a boost for anywhere from $40-60. To only realize that its a huge waste of money. My portable jumper pack costed me $65 lol.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Alright, turns out I'm just an idiot and can't remember **** correctly. LOL

My current car is a 99' Cavalier RS and I just went out to confirm the RPM's at idle, looks to be around 800RPM. Really thought it was lower than that though. Previous car was a 92 Cutlass Ciera, which while I "thought" it idled lower around 500-600RPM, it may very well have been higher than I thought. Those are the only car's I've owned with a tach to know my RPM's and truth be told, I don't pay all that much attention to it. Obviously.


Years ago shortly after I started driving I had a small batty jumper I carried with me, think I only used it twice before it no longer held a charge for more than a few days. Granted, it was around (4) years that I had it and as I said, I only remember using it twice. No idea what it cost, my dad got it for me to carry in the trunk, just in case.


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## Mayosandwich (Sep 9, 2012)

Weigel21 said:


> Alright, turns out I'm just an idiot and can't remember **** correctly. LOL
> 
> My current car is a 99' Cavalier RS and I just went out to confirm the RPM's at idle, looks to be around 800RPM. Really thought it was lower than that though. Previous car was a 92 Cutlass Ciera, which while I "thought" it idled lower around 500-600RPM, it may very well have been higher than I thought. Those are the only car's I've owned with a tach to know my RPM's and truth be told, I don't pay all that much attention to it. Obviously.
> 
> ...


Oh okay thanks. Well portable battery jumpers are still worth it especially in the winter. I'm surprised more people don't buy them. This technology definitely wasnt around 2-3 years ago when I would go start my car in the winter and it wouldn't start so I would then need to get on the phone with a mobile mech nearby and wait for him so he can boost me to drive to Walmart to get a new battery lol. What a major PITA.

I think my idle is about right. Im just shocked that I dont have any light dimming with my car idling, considering the alternator isnt putting out the full 130amps...more like 40amps (and that would be dedicated to the car itself). I just pray that Im not quietly killing my alternator by doing this.a

I just cant believe the difference a 5ch amp makes over using the HU power. I wish I had done this upgrade a year ago when I got the car. I would love to hear it with say a Northstar AGM installed in the car.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Today they do have some tiny portable battery jumpers, some of them even plug into the 12V outlet to jump the car. 

I don't get dead batteries often enough for it to be of any huge concern to me, I'm usually the one giving a jump start to someone else. LOL I do carry jumper cables and a small toolbox with various tools. However, I don't really drive to all that many places, to and from work is the main thing, then there's to and from the store and gas station. Don't drive much more than that. 

The battery jumper I had was around the size of the battery under the hood, it had a set of cables with gator clips, a built-in flash light (used it more than a few times when changing a tire at night), and I think it had a12V accessory outlet. 

For me, it was basically a HUGE flash light, as I really didn't use it to jump my car. 

Yeah, flat tires is where my luck is, I swear, if there's anything on a road to cause a flat, I'll find it. Probably average 1 flat a month or damn close to it, yep, my luck is just that great.


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