# STUCK!



## pootler (Feb 24, 2021)

Hi - new to the forums.

I have been building a car pc for the best part of two years on and off 

I know car pc's have dropped off the radar- but its what I have to work with.

This is not professional, and I am using the bare minimum hardware that I have , and that I can get?

It consists of a Windows 10 Tablet which is placed in front of the main fascia.
It is not in the fascia and I have done no fancy work to make it fit in - it looks fine.
I have a box that fools my honda into thinking that the audio output of the tablet is part of the multi cd player, so it ouputs fine.
All of the accessories are usb and housed in a separate box in the glove compartment.
There are five usb devices , in a powered usb 3 hub. 
The tablet has a full size usb port.
This enables me to receive DAB radio, external GPS, Bluetooth receiver, windows mce remote. and external usb microphone.
Although I have a shiny windows tablet in front of me, I have NO intention of touching it whilst driving - the system is set up so I can input 95% of info using a cheap chinese steering wheel remote ( MCE ), for switching functions, and I also have limited voice control.
Not forgetting hands free.
The hub receives power from a 12v to 5v convertor ( 5V 3A ) via the acc cigarette lighter fuse
The tablet receives power direct from fusebox ( 12V 3A) via the acc fuse.
This is done with add -a -fuses, so additional fuses are there for the devices.
Both provide power when ignition is off for listening.

o.k, so everything works, but I have one major frustration - you may all laugh now 

The install works fine when in 'acc'' mode, so I can listen without the car running.
But , when I turn the engine on, the Honda disconnects all power to everything :-(, so the tablet survives ( it switches to battery power for the brief moment it loses it from the car), but my accessories disconnect , and with the wonder of Windows ( ! ), they dont' connect properly after that.
The unit needs to be restarted to begin working correctly again ;-(.

Now , as explained , when it comes to electrical stuff, I am total NOOB, but can follow clear instructions.

Does anybody have a solution that I may be able to follow to prevent this?
I cannot have any permanent feed to the usb accessories, as this would drain the battery fairly quickly ( the hub is drawing around 2A )

Many Thanks in advance 

pootler


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## EricTundra (Feb 19, 2021)

Process of elimination. First I would disconnect the hub and try to turn the engine on. If the car still disconnects all power, then I would reconnect the hub and this time disconnect the tablet. Obviously something you connected is causing the power to shut off - unless this was already happening before you even started this mod? A bit more info and troubleshooting is in order. Sounds like you've done quite a bit of brain squeezing already? Might help to step away from the vehicle and take 5 for a few days to gain a new and better perspective. Good luck, I'm sure you'll figure this out.


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## pootler (Feb 24, 2021)

EricTundra said:


> Process of elimination. First I would disconnect the hub and try to turn the engine on. If the car still disconnects all power, then I would reconnect the hub and this time disconnect the tablet. Obviously something you connected is causing the power to shut off - unless this was already happening before you even started this mod? A bit more info and troubleshooting is in order. Sounds like you've done quite a bit of brain squeezing already? Might help to step away from the vehicle and take 5 for a few days to gain a new and better perspective. Good luck, I'm sure you'll figure this out.


Hi Eric,

Thanks for the reply.

Putting a meter on the both ''acc feeds, the Honda disconnects both for cranking. (The battery is is healthy.)

So , there is no power to either ''acc'' ( tablet ), or ''acc lighter''' ( hub).
I need to something to provide power to the hub ( as mentioned, the tablet survives by switching to battery), for the 2-4 secs power is disconnected whilst cranking.
Its as if I need a permanent feed to switch in for that brief time, but then switch out again?

As mentioned, I am a noob in this area.

Cheer

pootler


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## Alain93 (Mar 6, 2017)

Hi,
You could feed everything from the battery directly and add a manual switch to turn on/off

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


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## Briggs (Nov 3, 2012)

I have a PC in the car, with a mini router and USB hub. Wired into an "all the time hot" lead. Obviously everything goes though a 12V to 5V converter. I got around your issue by installing a lighted pushbutton switch (and relay) that interrupts the power when off. I stuck the .75" lighted switch in a cigarette lighter/power location. The upside to this approach is that if you get our of the car for short period you can leave everything running and not have interruption. The lighted push button switch reminds me to turn off when I get out for an extended period. Has worked great for me.


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## CrimsonCountry (Mar 11, 2012)

I've been running my pc setup for a few years now and it's been flawless. I'm running a PicoPSU with an internal relay triggered by ACC 12v, constant 12v obviously connected as well. It's got a programmable soft-off (30 sec+ timeout after losing 12v ACC power to allow for safe PC shutdown). On top of that, I've got an inline switch on the ACC line so I can keep it off when needed or manual restart when Windows freezes up. I too bypassed the auto off by adding another constant 12v, instead of ACC on, to keep it on when parked for a short time but ended up removing it since I never used it.


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## Briggs (Nov 3, 2012)

CrimsonCountry said:


> I've been running my pc setup for a few years now and it's been flawless. I'm running a PicoPSU with an internal relay triggered by ACC 12v, constant 12v obviously connected as well. It's got a programmable soft-off (30 sec+ timeout after losing 12v ACC power to allow for safe PC shutdown). On top of that, I've got an inline switch on the ACC line so I can keep it off when needed or manual restart when Windows freezes up. I too bypassed the auto off by adding another constant 12v, instead of ACC on, to keep it on when parked for a short time but ended up removing it since I never used it.


curious, is that internal relay standard? I use a mini fanless Zotac Pc about the size of a deck of cards. I have to manually start it each time, not a huge issue but not ideal. I don't really want to build one but auto start would be interesting


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## BJG (Feb 7, 2021)

Unfortunately I have nothing useful to add in helping you solve your problem.. but what is it that you gain by using windows over android in car application? I mean it's not like your going typing in word or excel, etc when driving down the road.

I'm not knocking your setup by any means whatsoever.. I'm just curious.


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## Briggs (Nov 3, 2012)

BJG said:


> Unfortunately I have nothing useful to add in helping you solve your problem.. but what is it that you gain by using windows over android in car application? I mean it's not like your going typing in word or excel, etc when driving down the road.
> 
> I'm not knocking your setup by any means whatsoever.. I'm just curious.


I run JRiver on a PC and have 4TB of music that plays bit perfect in lossless format through a USB DAC. Far beyond what an Android can support right now.


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## BJG (Feb 7, 2021)

Briggs said:


> I run JRiver on a PC and have 4TB of music that plays bit perfect in lossless format through a USB DAC. Far beyond what an Android can support right now.


Right on! I hope you can get it sorted out...


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## CrimsonCountry (Mar 11, 2012)

Briggs said:


> curious, is that internal relay standard? I use a mini fanless Zotac Pc about the size of a deck of cards. I have to manually start it each time, not a huge issue but not ideal. I don't really want to build one but auto start would be interesting


The relay function is standard on my PSU. It's a PicoPSU M3-ATX and its specifically built to withstand a large range of voltage for PC auto use. It plugs directly into the ATX PSU input on the motherboard so you'd have to jump some pins and rig up your own power out (shouldn't be that hard) for non-atx use. Mine is built on a mini-ITX board so I'm able to utilize the PSU as designed in my setup.





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M3-ATX, intelligent ATX automotive power supply, 12/24V - power your PC in a car


M3-ATX is an intelligent, high power, vehicle (car / boat / electric cart) DC-DC ATX PC power supply designed for car pc or battery powered applications



www.mini-box.com





I would imagine you could set up something similar to power your mini-PC but I'm guessing there's no smart on/off on those type units, correct? Just an on/off button.

What's your setup? Are you doing anything special in Jriver or just optical out to a DSP?


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## Briggs (Nov 3, 2012)

CrimsonCountry said:


> What's your setup? Are you doing anything special in Jriver or just optical out to a DSP?


I have run a Dragonfly DAC so no optical output, just a singe ended RCA interface. I get no noise however. On my last car I went direct to the Helix DSP DAC card. I have not A/B'd the Helix DAC card with the Dragonfly yet. If I was going to do this I'd invest in the Cobalt (now have Red).

I am working on my next install and may look at a DAC with Optical. For control I use JRemote on an Android tablet, which is why I am here lurking. I'd like to get rid of the separate tablet and install JRemote on an Android head unit. I also am wondering about the Kenwood *DNR1007XR *since it can play FLAC direct, but I'm not anxious to drop $1500 on a head unit and then get stuck with the quality of their DAC. I like the flexibility that running JRiver allows me. I don't do anything extra with the JRiver capabilities, I run as bit perfect as possible and then do any processing in the DSP. The nice thing is I can play ANY format from MP3 to DSD/DSF. 

The auto ON feature of your PC is nice, but not an option on my little Zotac. I have installed so the on button is easily accessible but generally out of site. I would be very happy however to get auto on feature. I read the literature and pulled the top wondering if maybe I could bypass the ON switch, but everything is too micro for my capabilities. For those looking for a PC I wholeheartedly recommend this and they can be had for $100 to $150 and will run Windows 10 in a headless configuration (Which is what I'm doing).


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## CrimsonCountry (Mar 11, 2012)

Briggs said:


> I have run a Dragonfly DAC so no optical output, just a singe ended RCA interface. I get no noise however. On my last car I went direct to the Helix DSP DAC card. I have not A/B'd the Helix DAC card with the Dragonfly yet. If I was going to do this I'd invest in the Cobalt (now have Red).
> 
> I am working on my next install and may look at a DAC with Optical. For control I use JRemote on an Android tablet, which is why I am here lurking. I'd like to get rid of the separate tablet and install JRemote on an Android head unit. I also am wondering about the Kenwood *DNR1007XR *since it can play FLAC direct, but I'm not anxious to drop $1500 on a head unit and then get stuck with the quality of their DAC. I like the flexibility that running JRiver allows me. I don't do anything extra with the JRiver capabilities, I run as bit perfect as possible and then do any processing in the DSP. The nice thing is I can play ANY format from MP3 to DSD/DSF.
> 
> ...


Ok gotcha. So you've got another DAC upstream of your DSP DAC. I just wasnt sure if you'd be running optical from the PC but that setup makes sense. It's been so long since I've ran RCAs into a DSP that I'm kind of curious to A/B it to see if theres any difference. In theory, as long as your RCAs are noose free and high voltage, it shouldn't matter. Only "benefit" being one less DAC in the chain I guess.

So what's your setup to run Jriver remotely? HDD server connected via SIM/Cell Hitspot or LAN? And you prefer Jremote over Gizmo app? Asking all this as I'm considering setting up mine to stream to my phone too but didnt want to buy a SIM card or eat more cell data so prefer to do it locally.

And I've actually ran Jriver as my only DSP before using the 8ch UDAC8 and its pretty amazing. Everything has to be set up manually but the options are endless as it's a very powerful platform. I had several pro audio plugins too that were really handy. I'm the same with DSD DSF SACD files too but it's hard to stream those natively as most DACS cant handle them.

I see what you mean on the pocket PC. I really like that size too. Seems perfect for a headless setup.


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## Briggs (Nov 3, 2012)

I run JRemote, I have had Gizmo as well and in my opinion the JRemote is much nicer. There are others that will work but I've stuck with JRemote- it works nicely on Apple or Android. I run five systems in the house as well and use JRemote and JRiver so very familiar with it.

No Cell data used. I run a mini router and set up a Wi-Fi network in the car. The phone then connects to JRiver via Wi-Fi. I actually do utilize both a tablet and iPhone for connectivity. The iPhone is quick and easy - the larger tablet gives a better viewing source. The phone is quite sufficient however.

My setup is a USB hub, the mini router, the Zotac PC and two USB drives for music (that untimely run in to the PC via the USB hub), along with a 5vdc converter to provide all of these the power they need. All is hidden and gets power with I turn on the lighted pushbutton switch I mentioned above. I still do have to manually start the PC however once power is on. The nice thing is that the Zotac can take a hard shutdown whiteout messing things up. When I get out of the car, power button OFF and everything stops. Even from inside the car you cannot see anything, it is very clean.

This is one of the routers I have used:




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Are you a human?







www.newegg.com


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## CrimsonCountry (Mar 11, 2012)

Nice! Thats a tiny little router. So you just create a local Wifi with that then connect for Jremote. That's all I really need too, just something that broadcasts its own wifi. I think any of the travel-sized mini routers/filehubs would work. I could also get one with USB for DLNA file sharing but the remote-only function with the PC doing all the work would simpler.

And are you using Jremote or Jremote2? It does seem to be the better app with more features despite the playstore reviews. I have Monkeymote also but like the looks of Jremote better.


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## Briggs (Nov 3, 2012)

Now JRemote 2 on my phone, JRemote on the Samsung tablet


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Nothing like over complicating stuff... take the acc feed via a diode, then the ignition feed (use both live when cranking and drops out if they all supply as the key clicks round... basically you want 12v at all times from all the feeds combined) via a diode and combine the two, use the key present signal also via a diode if you wish to make it so the pc turns on with key in new doesn’t switch off through crank...

if it does switch off with voltage drop you need a small 50-60f super cap bank (or I have used a £20 house alarm battery also) which will run the pc for a short while and have a relay that disconnects the cap bank from the main battery for the split second while cranking and the cap bank supplies current to the pc 👍🏼

So simple...


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## Briggs (Nov 3, 2012)

dumdum said:


> Nothing like over complicating stuff... take the acc feed via a diode, then the ignition feed (use both live when cranking and drops out if they all supply as the key clicks round... basically you want 12v at all times from all the feeds combined) via a diode and combine the two, use the key present signal also via a diode if you wish to make it so the pc turns on with key in new doesn’t switch off through crank...
> 
> if it does switch off with voltage drop you need a small 50-60f super cap bank (or I have used a £20 house alarm battery also) which will run the pc for a short while and have a relay that disconnects the cap bank from the main battery for the split second while cranking and the cap bank supplies current to the pc 👍🏼
> 
> So simple...


Oh Ya, MUCH easier than a switch


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Briggs said:


> Oh Ya, MUCH easier than a switch


Soldering two or three wires and making something automatic vs something you can leave on and cause lots of issues... 😂 plus the guy wanted to know how to make what he had work, not stick a switch in... I bet he never thought of that for his pc 😉🤣 yes a switch is easier... but not really mimicking factory radio


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## Briggs (Nov 3, 2012)

dumdum said:


> Soldering two or three wires and making something automatic vs something you can leave on and cause lots of issues... 😂 plus the guy wanted to know how to make what he had work, not stick a switch in... I bet he never thought of that for his pc 😉🤣 yes a switch is easier... but not really mimicking factory radio


To each his own, I've had this setup for 7+ years and understand from first-hand knowledge why it is the preferred solution for me. I'm not hear to convince anyone of my approach just provide actual use experience.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

So I assume you are running off a switched power feed. This is good to eliminate battery drain when the car is off. However, probably disconnects briefly as you turn the key to crank the engine. 

I also would not want to add a manual power switch added to battery hot. It's just another thing to worry about and may look unsightly.

DumDum eluded to the right idea above. Let me make a children's quality sketch:









The diode will block other equipment in your car from draining the capacitor when voltage drops out during a key cycle from accessory to run. During the timeframe when your battery drops out during start your system will be powered entirely off the capacitor. The capacitor acts as a temporary power source while your main switched battery voltage recovers. Your equipment will run as normal while the vehicle is running.

When you turn your vehicle off, your switched battery feed drops to zero. However, your equipment feed will stay active for a bit until the capacitor drains down to a low enough voltage level where your equipment will turn off. You'll need to fiddle around a bit with the size of capacitor you want to use. Too small and it won't do it's job properly. It will allow voltage drop during crank. Too large and your gear will stay on for prolonged periods of time after your car shuts off.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

The only thing you have to watch for with a supercap is the arcing as the cap draws a big amount of power... I would add a relay into circuit so the switched feed is just for a small current and use the battery to feed the relay, a relay is easy to swap, the ignition barrel/relays in main distribution boards are not easily replaceable


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

dumdum said:


> The only thing you have to watch for with a supercap is the arcing as the cap draws a big amount of power... I would add a relay into circuit so the switched feed is just for a small current and use the battery to feed the relay, a relay is easy to swap, the ignition barrel/relays in main distribution boards are not easily replaceable


What do you think about having a 20W 1-2 ohm power resistor in there?


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## Briggs (Nov 3, 2012)

To address a question from earlier - no issue with voltage drop on cranking if you do it properly.

PC boot up time is an issue for those that actually use a PC in their car. Even with most services disabled it takes a while, having the agility to leave the PC powered for short or longer periods has real world value. The drain on the battery is not huge so even a few hours is OK.

Does anyone weighing in on this system design run a PC regularly?

Also, why would a switch be unsightly? If you can't install a switch , maybe you should consider your ability to install a stereo?


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Holmz said:


> What do you think about having a 20W 1-2 ohm power resistor in there?


A power resistor may drop the voltage a bit much in conjunction with the 0.7v drop through the diode depending where the resistor is placed


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

I was thinking more of it solely as a way to limit current to save the ignition switch.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Holmz said:


> I was thinking more of it solely as a way to limit current to save the ignition switch.


I know what you were thinking... but it will have other effects that make the purpose of it less or not effective also 👍🏼


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## Briggs (Nov 3, 2012)

My own unsightly button and PC install...


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