# Help designing enclosures for rear deck 6x9's.



## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Hey,

I need help designing a custom 6x9 enclosure for each separate 6x9 in my car's rear deck.

The problem: My 6x9's are currently housed in baffles in the rear deck that cup the speaker (protecting it from the violent bass air from the sub), giving it no space to push air of it's own and thus creating a vaccum and as a result giving me no midbass (60Hz-130Hz). As a result the over all system mid-bass response is about 10db below the deep bass response (20Hz-50Hz). 

The goal: Design an enclosure for each 6x9 for the rear deck that gives it enough breathing room to create it's own midbass and boost the big dip in the frequency range from 60Hz to 100Hz.

Now. What size of cabinet would be ideal for Infinity Reference 9613i 6x9's? Should I put egg crate foam in back of the 6x9's just like I did in the front doors to help reduce backwaves?

I need ideas. I will email Infinity with the question and have them recommend a sealed enclosure volume.


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## Lothar34 (Oct 6, 2006)

Run the 6x9s out of phase with the sub.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

Lothar34 said:


> Run the 6x9s out of phase with the sub.


bad idea.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1313&_nkw=6x9+enclosure&_sacat=See-All-Categories


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

60ndown said:


> http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1313&_nkw=6x9+enclosure&_sacat=See-All-Categories


Will those secure to the rear deck? I'm thinking about screwing the wood to the rear deck and then using some puddy like stuff that will harden and seal the wood to the rear deck to hold in the air and make a real sealed enclosure. The thing that worries me is that it might not make a difference after all the work.


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## Lothar34 (Oct 6, 2006)

60ndown said:


> bad idea.


I think it's a great idea.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Violent Bass Air


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> Will those secure to the rear deck? I'm thinking about screwing the wood to the rear deck and then using some puddy like stuff that will harden and seal the wood to the rear deck to hold in the air and make a real sealed enclosure. The thing that worries me is that it might not make a difference after all the work.


yes with a couple screws and some 'putty' or 'caulk' it will protect the 6x9s from the sub output.

it will make a good difference, your sub is harming the 6x9s, if you protect them with an enclosure they will sound much better.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

Lothar34 said:


> I think it's a great idea.


so his sub is crossed at let say 80hz, his 6x9s will pick up from 80-20,000

if the 6x9s are out of phase with each other

wheres his midbass going to come from?

there wont be any, because the 6x9s are out of phase.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Um,

Maybe you guys missed something. The 6x9's right now are indeed sealed with baffles. The baffles aren't providing enough volume to allow for decent bass production from the 6x9s. The 6x9s sound muffled and muted by the baffles. It's not logical to try switching polarity when the obvious problem is the baffles and the lack of a proper sized enclosure.

I'm just worried I'll go through a ton of trouble for little to no gain when the project is done.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> Um,
> 
> Maybe you guys missed something. The 6x9's right now are indeed sealed with baffles. The baffles aren't providing enough volume to allow for decent bass production from the 6x9s. The 6x9s sound muffled and muted by the baffles. It's not logical to try switching polarity when the obvious problem is the baffles and the lack of a proper sized enclosure.
> 
> I'm just worried I'll go through a ton of trouble for little to no gain when the project is done.


you sure the mids and tweets are working?


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

60ndown said:


> you sure the mids and tweets are working?


Yeah, the speakers are producing what sounds like 200Hz - 20KHz even though the cross over is down at 80-100Hz range. I've tested the output already and nothing is wrong with the amp. The baffles I put on the back of the 6x9s are logically the issue. Free up those and my midbass should be helped a great deal.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

How much sub do you have? I've run a lot of IB systems like that without 6x9 enclosures. Did you verify the subs are moving the 6x9 without? Sounds like they just need to be larger if you do need enclosures, might get an idea by modeling a similar IB 8" but I rarely find T&S on 6x9s. I assume the manual says nothing? I would guess 1cf to get more midbass, maybe a little less as I think most 6x9 are high Q. I just tested them by ear.

I think the most I ran that way were four 10s and they were not huge xmax, car had a smallish trunk. 6x9 did not move over say 1/4 of xmax at full tilt, it was hard to see exactly but they moved much more from their own power when playing. I never detected a SQ issue with this, though some say there is one. When it is going that loud I'm not sure if SQ is really that relevant, or it sure is not to me long as I can't hear a problem. I think the only issue would be damage to the 6x9 or excess movement interfering with its ability to play properly of course. A friend had the same car with higher xmax 10" and had six of them, he did get movement and made sheet metal boxes. He lined the bottom with wood and not sure what else he did. I have a poor photo I'll post of those boxes.

Baffle = the flat plane the driver (6x9) is mounted to in IB use, if you mean one of those foam/plastic dishes that go over the back of speaker they tighten up response but don't really protect from subs. They are more aperiodic and reduce bass. If you need to protect you must have a rigid sealed box/enclosure behind them.

I've never run anything but tweeters out of phase with each other. You can run the mids out of phase with subs if you have excess midbass at xover point.

This car hammered pretty good, is an old school setup. It is not in use and he was messing with things thus the wires hanging and its pretty dusty. I think most of the time he had a 300wrms 12v rated 2ch on each pair of subs.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

I'd disconnect the sub...

and play some midbass heavy music 

Once you get some seperate mids in there you'll be fine !

If the midbass is weak, I'd switch out the Infinity's.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I like infinity but all the ones I have used tended to not be strong in midbass if that is what you need, but they do make it so if you have none I'd look for other issues. Check phase, try taking those covers off them, etc. Right, play it without subs and see what you can come up with.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

sqshoestring said:


> I like infinity but all the ones I have used tended to not be strong in midbass if that is what you need, but they do make it so if you have none I'd look for other issues. Check phase, try taking those covers off them, etc. Right, play it without subs and see what you can come up with.


It's not the speakers. It's the baffle. The car's oem paper 6x9s gave more mid-bass with the factory stereo than these 6x9s with a 60-watt RMS amp and no crossover set while in the baffles. It's pretty obvious the 6x9's require some kind of decent volume space to operate in.

I got my email back from Infinity. They said the 6x9s are made for an infinite baffle, which means, "free-air". They said that if I cannot use the trunk to at least use a .5 cuft enclosure minimum to improve the bass response.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> Yeah, the speakers are producing what sounds like 200Hz - 20KHz even though the cross over is down at 80-100Hz range.


orly !


try adjusting the crossover up or down.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> It's not the speakers. It's the baffle. The car's oem paper 6x9s gave more mid-bass with the factory stereo than these 6x9s with a 60-watt RMS amp and no crossover set while in the baffles. It's pretty obvious the 6x9's require some kind of decent volume space to operate in.
> 
> I got my email back from Infinity. They said the 6x9s are made for an infinite baffle, which means, "free-air". They said that if I cannot use the trunk to at least use a .5 cuft enclosure minimum to improve the bass response.


Sounds right. I'd take those covers off and see what happens. See if the subs move them or not and what sound you get. They should have good bass IB running full range, for what they are.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

60ndown said:


> orly !
> 
> 
> try adjusting the crossover up or down.


I did try that. I can hear the difference when i lower the crossover frequency but it's not enough output in the midbass region due to the baffle. When the sub is played, the really low frequencies like 20-50Hz can hit 115db on my SPL meter using 0db test tones then right at 60Hz the SPL drops drastically down to 102-105db and stays that way until i get the tones that reach 110Hz, which is basically the crossover frequency of my front door comps. I also checked and there is no bass boost engaged on the HU or the sub amp. I've tried to increase the sub's crossover and it doesn't effect the low 60Hz-100Hz output. There seems to be an acoustic absorption issue at those frequencies, so I need all the help I can get in that range.

My front door comps (6.5") really don't do too well at 60-90Hz when pushing the SPL in the car to 110db average. So, I had to cross the front door comps to around 100-110Hz to reduce breakup and panel vibrations. The 6x9's are much more likely to hit 60Hz-100Hz with less distortion.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> I did try that. I can hear the difference when i lower the crossover frequency but it's not enough output in the midbass region due to the baffle. When the sub is played, the really low frequencies like 20-50Hz can hit 115db on my SPL meter using 0db test tones then right at 60Hz the SPL drops drastically down to 102-105db and stays that way until i get the tones that reach 110Hz, which is basically the crossover frequency of my front door comps. I also checked and there is no bass boost engaged on the HU or the sub amp. I've tried to increase the sub's crossover and it doesn't effect the low 60Hz-100Hz output. There seems to be an acoustic absorption issue at those frequencies, so I need all the help I can get in that range.
> 
> My front door comps (6.5") really don't do too well at 60-90Hz when pushing the SPL in the car to 110db average. So, I had to cross the front door comps to around 100-110Hz to reduce breakup and panel vibrations. The 6x9's are much more likely to hit 60Hz-100Hz with less distortion.


get rid of the baffles, get rid of the fronts, get rid of the 6X9's and put in front comps capable of crossing lower. done. taken care of.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

AWC said:


> get rid of the baffles, get rid of the fronts, get rid of the 6X9's and put in front comps capable of crossing lower. done. taken care of.


Get rid of my Infinity Refs? No WAY! I auditioned countless speakers before choosing these. I'm not dumping my Infinity speakers.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

get a 1500 watt amp for the 6x9s so they keep up with the bass.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Doors might be like my car; they suck for bass. Have to deaden and put baffles in to get any, I have to rework mine. It is not the speakers, infinity have a pretty smooth sound that is why I like them too.

6x9 make great midbass, they will blow any comparable 6.5 in the weeds. It is install or wiring/crossover.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

This thread is hilarious.

Seriously, just take out the "baffles."


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

sqshoestring said:


> Doors might be like my car; they suck for bass. Have to deaden and put baffles in to get any, I have to rework mine. It is not the speakers, infinity have a pretty smooth sound that is why I like them too.
> 
> 6x9 make great midbass, they will blow any comparable 6.5 in the weeds. It is install or wiring/crossover.


The thing that sucks is that Nissan designed a really poor door for aftermarket speakers. It's highly prone to rattling and sounds hollow and you have to mod the door panel to prevent the woofer from touching the panel at high output. 

I have already heavily damped the door and door panel with Second Skin damper. I've also modded the door with a 6x9 grill to give extra room for the component woofer's excursion. Even after all that, I must still use a 100Hz crossover to prevent vibration and distortion.

I accept the issues because the Infinity Refs sound really good to me and I haven't heard any speaker yet that makes me want to replace them.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

capnxtreme said:


> This thread is hilarious.
> 
> Seriously, just take out the "baffles."


I am not going to subject my 6x9s to the free air enviroment of that trunk while the sub is hitting. People don't typically do enclosures for the rear deck speakers but in my opinion, it should be required if you are doing this kind of install.


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## drocpsu (May 3, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> I am not going to subject my 6x9s to the free air enviroment of that trunk while the sub is hitting. People don't typically do enclosures for the rear deck speakers but in my opinion, it should be required if you are doing this kind of install.


what should be required is not doing that kind of install.

You obviously are 100% dead set on keeping the 6x9s and building some sort of enclosure...so do it. We don't have any information to "help" you build an enclosure. Just build it to the specs that infinity gave and and be done with it. There's been all kinds of advice given here and you've basically said everything else is wrong but your idea.

Or maybe you should get weaker subs to decrease the amount of violent bass air that you subject to your 6x9s.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Good point about the violent bass air [LMAO]


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Are you saying in your sig you have one 10" sub? It should not push the 6x9 around at all. The 6x9 have a much higher Fs and way less cone mass/area, they only react to pressure and trunks are not that good at making pressure like a real box can. 6x9 are also made just for this kind of situation, within reason. I don't recall if/what I ran with a box in trunk and 6x9 IB. I did in at least one car with pair of older RF 10" in a ported box on about 300rms. Mostly I run IB subs any time I can.

If you are that worried then yes, just make some boxes for them these guys are correct. I tested with and without many times, many years ago. I determined the 6x9 near always sounded better IB so I would only run enclosures if the 6x9 were moving a lot from bass....but you need a LOT of bass to do that in most cars. My four 12s might since they can shake the roof/rear glass/trunk visibly, but pair or less of 10s very unlikely. Trunks are often vented, certainly not air tight or you could not close them easily. In addition most all the panels flex excepting maybe the floor. They might be more of a balloon to the speakers than a box dependent on car and power used. Of course that can help for IB use. The photo I posted is IIRC an '80 firebird, that trunk is very tiny.

In fact slam your trunk shut and see what the 6x9 do. Take a ported box playing loud and hold your hand on the port, there is little actual force there and much less than the relatively huge trunk lid.

Doors - lot of doors are so weak now you can push the inner panel right in and it moves when you run the power window. It should be strengthened not just deadened. I try to put wood on it inside or out with or in addition to speaker mounting. Sometimes I mount the driver in metal and put wood around it. Over any distance the sheet metal begins to flex. In the end its more a matter of what fits in the particular car. I've even screwed metal bars on to stiffen them up, sometimes lots of deadening is just like mounting the speaker in a thick rubber floor mat if the door is flimsy.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

sqshoestring said:


> Are you saying in your sig you have one 10" sub? It should not push the 6x9 around at all.


That sub is not your regular type of sub. It's an SPL sub being pushed by 800-watts RMS. Not a good idea to let the 6x9s get exposed to that.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> That sub is not your regular type of sub. It's a VBA sub being pushed by 800-watts RMS. Not a good idea to let the 6x9s get exposed to that.


Fair enough.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Well if you don't want to check them lets assume they are affected. What are you going to make the boxes out of?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> That sub is not your regular type of sub. It's an SPL sub being pushed by 800-watts RMS. Not a good idea to let the 6x9s get exposed to that.


Well since this is one of the most profoundly meanest 10" subs ever built, that it will command 2 6"X9" speakers, hanging essentially in free air, to react to "Violent Bass Air..." 

Mind telling us what this sub is?

Many, Many, Many people have had rear deck speakers, especially "back in the day" that were subjected to subs in the trunk, lots of them, even pointing AT the rear of the deck speaker's cone. With nary a hint of damage.


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## 99IntegraGS (Jan 18, 2007)

chad said:


> Mind telling us what this sub is?


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/blog.php?b=8


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

chad said:


> Well since this is one of the most profoundly meanest 10" subs ever built, that it will command 2 6"X9" speakers, hanging essentially in free air, to react to "Violent Bass Air..."
> 
> Mind telling us what this sub is?
> 
> Many, Many, Many people have had rear deck speakers, especially "back in the day" that were subjected to subs in the trunk, lots of them, even pointing AT the rear of the deck speaker's cone. With nary a hint of damage.


It's more about trying to preserve sound quality on the rear speakers. If they are pushed around by the sub it's not going to promote quality sound.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> It's more about trying to preserve sound quality on the rear speakers. If they are pushed around by the sub it's not going to promote quality sound.


What kind of car, and is the trunk sealed, really, the pressure will dissipate rather quickly, hence why those with IB rigs work very hard to seal the trunk off.


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

Really the design of the Infinity Reference series is geared more toward efficiency, getting the most out of lower power applications like head units. They can handle more amp power, but they're primarily made for stock upgrade without needing massive power to drive. Only thing is, efficiency, low mass, etc. means the midbass output is going weaker when compared to a less efficient driver. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the Reference 6x9s didn't drop as low as the OEM drivers did IB to IB, while the References would be more efficient and be capable of getting much louder. Small enclosure, efficiency, low bass: You can only have two. In case of the Infinities, no real way around it if you want midbass, they'll need to be put IB or you'll sacrifice low end output. No real way around it. The enclosure required to get said low end would be so large it wouldn't be worth building. 

Keep in mind I do agree with what's been stated the above in that your midbass should ideally come from the front drivers, being whatever you have up front whether it's a component set, coaxials, etc.


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

Tspence, you really need to heed the advise of others. Perhaps your lack of upper bass frequencies is due to your sub. Have you tried other subs?


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

chad said:


> What kind of car, and is the trunk sealed, really, the pressure will dissipate rather quickly, hence why those with IB rigs work very hard to seal the trunk off.


A 2007 Nissan Sentra. The trunk has not been damped yet, but it doesn't rattle yet probably because it's a newer car. My trunk lid flexes at high output, so it must generating some pressure in the trunk.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Dangerranger said:


> Really the design of the Infinity Reference series is geared more toward efficiency, getting the most out of lower power applications like head units. They can handle more amp power, but they're primarily made for stock upgrade without needing massive power to drive. Only thing is, efficiency, low mass, etc. means the midbass output is going weaker when compared to a less efficient driver. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the Reference 6x9s didn't drop as low as the OEM drivers did IB to IB, while the References would be more efficient and be capable of getting much louder. Small enclosure, efficiency, low bass: You can only have two. In case of the Infinities, no real way around it if you want midbass, they'll need to be put IB or you'll sacrifice low end output. No real way around it. The enclosure required to get said low end would be so large it wouldn't be worth building.
> 
> Keep in mind I do agree with what's been stated the above in that your midbass should ideally come from the front drivers, being whatever you have up front whether it's a component set, coaxials, etc.


The problem is that I have run 0db test tones of 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110Hz. The results are as follows:

20Hz 110db
30Hz 115db
40Hz 115db
50Hz 115db

Then a weird acoustic anamoly happens. There is a huge acoustical absorption of this next series of frequencies. I have checked the sub amp's crossover setting and confirmed it's not any headunit sub crossover setting or bass boost. I have the same problem with the previous sub amp I used, so it's not anything with the amp. I have chalked it up to an acoustic absorption. I don't know if it's the fabric seats, panel absorbtion, etc, but it's a huge dip of 12db right after 50Hz:

60Hz 103db
70Hz 104db
80Hz 106db
90Hz 106db
100Hz 108db
110Hz 113db

Then of course the comps and 6x9s have well taken over the output and I'm able to reach a very slightly clipped output of 115db from 120Hz - 400Hz, then the rest of the frequencies beyond that are audibly clean to me with no scratchy clipping sounds. I have bought a new amp with plenty of clean output and those 100Hz - 500Hz should be non-clipped and sound clean.

The goal here is to get the 6x9s freed up to help boost that dip in frequency SPL from 60-100Hz.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Jimi77 said:


> Tspence, you really need to heed the advise of others. Perhaps your lack of upper bass frequencies is due to your sub. Have you tried other subs?


I have scheduled my upgrade over the next year and a subwoofer upgrade is scheduled for springtime of next year. I am planning to get TWO 12" RE SE subs in a 1.2 cu ft sealed box and wiring them to 1-ohm on my A7HC sub amp which will run 700-watts RMS to each. I'm expecting a boost in SPL as well as better accuracy. The boost in SPL should allow me to equalize down the deepest bass frequencies and still have a strong output at the frequencies that are at issue in my car's acoustics.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

make your sub face the rear bumper and slide it backwards and forwards { remove the 6 x 9's for this }. Use your ears or a meter to see where it sounds the loudest to you [ opening your window a little will increase the output slightly ].

You are actually, getting all you can from that sub [ a 12" Digital Designs subwoofer in a vented box will take you up a notch ].


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

It's the Violent Bass Air bro, be careful of that. It has been known to rip holes in the space time continuum.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> It's the Violent Bass Air bro, be careful of that. It has been known to rip holes in the space time continuum.


Is that your real team name or did you steal it from me?


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

You've never heard of that team? 2005, 2006, and 2007 USUC SPL champs. Vestax is also on the team.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> You've never heard of that team? 2005, 2006, and 2007 USUC SPL champs. Vestax is also on the team.


That's cool. I approve of that name.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

I figured that's where you got the term from in your original post. I didn't know that you weren't aware of the team.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

tspence73,

That sub is doing all it can ! [ to pooped to pop ]


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Here is some designing fun:










I have measured the limitations underneath the rear deck where the 6x9's are mounted. I came up with a maximum possible scenario and plugged it into that website enclosure program then attached a screen shot of my box design to this post. (The 8" depth is really 7.5 but I put it at 8" to compensate for the added volume of not needing the plank of wood the 6x9 would mount to. The 6x9 mounts to the rear deck itself.)

I will guesstimate a speaker displacement of .025 based on a typical 8" sub with a 4.5 inch mounting depth with a .035 displacement. The 6x9 is 3" so I guess a .025 cuft displacement sounds about right, but due to the rear deck thickness, not all the 6x9 will be in the box, so I made an adjustment to 0.015 displacement to compensate.

So, with an estimated displacement of .015 against a .519 volume, my math tells me the likely volume will end up 5.04 cubic feet of volume. With .5 pound of polyfill I figure I MIGHT get back what I lost on the 6x9 displacement plus a tiny bit more. It all comes down to the polyfill. How much more volume will the polyfill seem to add to the sound of the box?


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## pontiacbird (Dec 29, 2006)

From my experience, the type of 6x9's you are using NEED an IB environment to perform....



In addition, it's not so bad that they are subjected to subwoofer frequencies....if the 6x9's are seeing power from the amplifier, this will act as a resistance to the pressure from the subwoofers......

the enclosures for your 6x9's will have to be LARGE for you to realize any benefits in the midbass region....I tried making boxes for 6x9's in the past, and was sorely disappointed.....


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

pontiacbird said:


> From my experience, the type of 6x9's you are using NEED an IB environment to perform....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See, any box should be an improvement over these baffles I'm using now. I gotta think the .5 cubic foot boxes with polyfill should be enough to get some decent bass out of them. And keep them from being distorted from the sub pressure.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> tspence73,
> 
> That sub is doing all it can ! [ to pooped to pop ]


I'm sorry Scottie, I'm gonna need warp 10!


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

violent bass air cannot be overcome by weaksause mid poof.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

60ndown said:


> violent bass air cannot be overcome by weaksause mid poof.


I'll remember you said that and report back after the project is completed and the SPL measurements are done.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

To get the most out of poly you need to fill it but don't pack it, I like to leave a little space for the VC to breath around the motor/basket.


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> The problem is that I have run 0db test tones of 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110Hz. The results are as follows:
> 
> 20Hz 110db
> 30Hz 115db
> ...


The SPL level 50hz and below is simply due to cabin gain. 60hz and above generally is lower in SPL due to the size of the vehicle. That's why smaller high-Q sealed enclosures are generally used for flattest response, the cabin gain compensates for the rolloff.

But if you want the 6x9s to assist there, they'll need to be IB to do it.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Dangerranger said:


> The SPL level 50hz and below is simply due to cabin gain. 60hz and above generally is lower in SPL due to the size of the vehicle. That's why smaller high-Q sealed enclosures are generally used for flattest response, the cabin gain compensates for the rolloff.
> 
> But if you want the 6x9s to assist there, they'll need to be IB to do it.


Well, I'm not going to have distorted/bloated/inaccurate mid-bass by letting the sub and 6x9s share the trunk as an enclosure. It's not condusive to quality sound. Doing the 6x9 enclosures right and squeezing out as much enclosure volume as possible in the design could very likely give me what I'm looking to do. Maintain accuracy and add some mid-bass dbs.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> Well, I'm not going to have distorted/bloated/inaccurate mid-bass by letting the sub and 6x9s share the trunk as an enclosure. It's not condusive to quality sound. Doing the 6x9 enclosures right and squeezing out as much enclosure volume as possible in the design could very likely give me what I'm looking to do. Maintain accuracy and add some mid-bass dbs.


I feel that you are assuming that the trunk is sealed enough to cause a large amount of IM distortion with the 6X9's and as many have said here, that just ain't the case. Sure your trunk lid moves with "Violent Bass Air" BUT so does the whole car, check out how much your roof moves, or your door panels. The whole cabin is being pressurized and depressurized, including the trunk, NOT JUST THE TRUNK. 

Now looking from this theory one SHOULD be more concerned about the door speakers because the pressure differential from a well sealed inner door skin would be MUCH greater than the pressure differential that is placed on your 6X9's that are in essence, for lack of a better phrase, pissing in the wind since they are not in a true infinite baffle configuration. If your trunk were totally sealed off from the cabin I could see it, but you lead no reference to this fact and EVEN THEN it has been stated to not cause issues in IB configurations posted. Therefore your DOOR SPEAKERS are possibly being influenced more from the subwoofer than the 6X9's that are the topic of concern.

Chad


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

While many more have thought it than said it, I'll say it. Take the 6X9's, take the cone off of it, and make a party hat. Sell the party hat and get some good speakers up front. See, your baffle problem is solved.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

quote>
for lack of a better phrase, pissing in the wind, for lack of a better phrase, pissing in the wind ...
Take the 6X9's, take the cone off of it, and make a party hat. Sell the party hat and get some good speakers up front

quote>

excellent advice [ as applied to a "Sound Quality", "Violent bass Air"...sys ].

ROTFLMAO !!


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

picture it, one 6X9 joined to another....like a robin hood hat


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I'm old school, I like properly done rears. Mostly because it can widen the stage and add midbass if you need it, but it is personal opinion.

Like I posted long ago, you can only tell what an IB driver is doing by visually inspecting it under maximum power use. If it is not moving a lot and you think it sounds bad, most likely it is in your head. Speakers are made to move, even if it moves a little from pressure it is not going to make a difference in sound. Good post on that Chad.

If you want to make enclosures go ahead and try, but odds are the 6x9 will be tuned quite high that way. The photo I posted has them, that car also has mids in front and lots of tuning on the crossovers in it...has plenty of midbass. However if you get the crossovers and EQ just right you can run midbass in IB subs in a rear deck just like 6x9 would make (well actually a whole lot more if you need)....and will be no more directional than 6x9. If you have some mids in front it sounds good unless you turn your head and listen to the rear then you can tell sound is also coming from back there. But range of sound, the response, can be very good and well blended sub to mid with that setup and the stage stays in front. Of course a box in a trunk can't play midbass as well, it can't be a good woofer.


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## falkenbd (Aug 16, 2008)

get rid of the 6x9s, put 4 6.5" midbass in each door, this will surely fix the reading on that meter.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

falkenbd said:


> get rid of the 6x9s, put 4 6.5" midbass in each door, this will surely fix the reading on that meter.


I like this idea.  It's expensive, but it's the one solution I've read so far that would be an option if I cost was not object.


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Well, I'm not going to have distorted/bloated/inaccurate mid-bass by letting the sub and 6x9s share the trunk as an enclosure. It's not condusive to quality sound. Doing the 6x9 enclosures right and squeezing out as much enclosure volume as possible in the design could very likely give me what I'm looking to do. Maintain accuracy and add some mid-bass dbs.



The more of an enclosure you make for said 6x9s, the more you're hindering the output of your subwoofer, and the more pressure you create in the trunk due to not having a good way to couple the trunk with the cabin. The enclosure will also consume airspace in the trunk, causing a smaller volume in the trunk and the typical "trunk bass" effect will worsen. When the only way for air to couple with the cabin is through a heavily upholstered seat, you're only creating more pressure in the trunk and hindering the subs SPL capability, and on top of that the seat acts as a low pass filter to the subwoofer because the long wavelengths of low bass notes are going to pass more efficiently than upper bass notes will. If you removed or relocated those 6x9s, the trunk would couple with the cabin more efficiently. It might even improve your 60-100hz output _from the subwoofer_ by a good bit. The 6x9s on the other hand will be hindered in any enclosure smaller than I'd estimate 2 cubic feet EACH if not more than that, and while they might contribute a bit to midbass output, they still won't keep up with the subwoofer at that point, and they definately won't put out as much as the subwoofer would if it were covering that frequency range.


http://manuals.harman.com/INF/CAR/Owner%27s%20Manual/ReferenceME_OM_2006.pdf

This is the Infinity product guide for your 6x9s, if you plug up their parameters in WinISD, there's really no way to run an enclosure without sacrificing low end. The Qt of the driver is .77 and an Fs of 51hz. Anything smaller than IB will kill the low end of the driver.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

AWC said:


> picture it, one 6X9 joined to another....like a robin hood hat


Or you could have one of those pointy bras!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why the hell you guys think a SUBWOOFER won't play well up to 100-150 cycles?

Edit**** I just figured it out, it's because you all make your enclosures so inefficient in the pass band that 100 cycles is too loud and you call it "boomy" that's it


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> Well, I'm not going to have distorted/bloated/inaccurate mid-bass by letting the sub and 6x9s share the trunk as an enclosure. It's not condusive to quality sound.


How do you know? Have you even tried it?

Or you are just that frightened by violent bass air?


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## drocpsu (May 3, 2005)

I still maintain that this is a stupid idea and is a ridiculous post (albeit, entertaining). 

Just take the 6x9s out and sell them. This will give your sub the (slightly) better ability to vent into the cabin and might improve your bass response a little. It also would allow you to use the money for better front speakers. Also, you won't waste a bunch of space in your trunk for 6x9 enclosures.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

drocpsu said:


> I still maintain that this is a stupid idea and is a ridiculous post (albeit, entertaining).
> 
> Just take the 6x9s out and sell them. This will give your sub the (slightly) better ability to vent into the cabin and might improve your bass response a little. It also would allow you to use the money for better front speakers. Also, you won't waste a bunch of space in your trunk for 6x9 enclosures.


+1!! Listen to this guy as he speaks the truth!


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## ehkewley (Jul 19, 2008)

Have you or a loved one been exposed to Violent Bass Air?


VBA is a serious condition, and you may be entitled a settlement. If you feel this is the case, then please contact the law offices of bob lob-law today!


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

drocpsu said:


> I still maintain that this is a stupid idea and is a ridiculous post (albeit, entertaining).
> 
> Just take the 6x9s out and sell them. This will give your sub the (slightly) better ability to vent into the cabin and might improve your bass response a little. It also would allow you to use the money for better front speakers. Also, you won't waste a bunch of space in your trunk for 6x9 enclosures.



I actually like my front speakers and I'm keeping them with this setup. One day if I hear a set of speakers I actually think are better, then I might upgrade but for now the Infinity Refs sound amazing to me.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> I actually like my front speakers and I'm keeping them with this setup. One day if I hear a set of speakers I actually think are better, then I might upgrade but for now the Infinity Refs sound amazing to me.


Then build them into the doors


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Dangerranger said:


> It might even improve your 60-100hz output _from the subwoofer_ by a good bit.


You can, but it will sound like crap IMO if you are looking for SQ...not that people don't do it. I'd rather have 6x9 do it, from anywhere in the car. I've only seen subs work that way mounted in deck IB, and had to be carefully done. In reality subs should never play higher than 80 at most or they localize; and often worse than 6x9 in rear would because the sub would be more efficient and have more power at that Hz. If it is tuned high it will have a really nasty peak there.

I've had 6x9 in front doors that sounded great. Of course soon you will get everyone complaining about your "oval" speakers not sounding as good as round ones. Even though a comparable 6x9 will thrash a 6.5 in bass.


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## falkenbd (Aug 16, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> I like this idea.  It's expensive, but it's the one solution I've read so far that would be an option if I cost was not object.


You can get some nice dayton drivers for pretty cheap. throw away the 6x9s.


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

Personally, I'd just get to the root cause of the subbass cancellation or perhaps that sub just doesn't respond above ~60hz. OTOH the OPs install skills are suspect since he can't even stop his door panels from vibrating due to the massive midbass output of the Infinity Refs.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

FTMFL



new system for sale guy, lemme know. I have the MB Quart Reference 6X9 component set....they have REALLY MASSIVE VILOENT BASS AIR!!!!!!


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

sqshoestring said:


> You can, but it will sound like crap IMO if you are looking for SQ...not that people don't do it..


Well the goal of the OP was SPL output over the frequency range, much easier to get it from a subwoofer. I agree that it isn't exactly the route to take for SQ, though I've used subs up to 100hz in installs before with good results though it took tuning and authoritative midbass up front. 



sqshoestring said:


> I've had 6x9 in front doors that sounded great. Of course soon you will get everyone complaining about your "oval" speakers not sounding as good as round ones. Even though a comparable 6x9 will thrash a 6.5 in bass.


The main thing is a lack of comparable 6x9s, there aren't any 6x9s out there that compare with the best 6"-7" midbasses. And really it doesn't take a whole lot to modify a 6x9" hole and fit an 8" driver in it's place.


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## drocpsu (May 3, 2005)

Dangerranger said:


> Well the goal of the OP was SPL output over the frequency range, much easier to get it from a subwoofer. I agree that it isn't exactly the route to take for SQ, though I've used subs up to 100hz in installs before with good results though it took tuning and authoritative midbass up front.


wait...this is an SPL install? This post should be in the SPL section!


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Jimi77 said:


> Personally, I'd just get to the root cause of the subbass cancellation or perhaps that sub just doesn't respond above ~60hz. OTOH the OPs install skills are suspect since he can't even stop his door panels from vibrating due to the massive midbass output of the Infinity Refs.


I've already explained to you before pal that the door panel itself within it's own sandwich'd layers of plastic is where the buzzing is happening. It cannot be cured unless you want to pay $1200 or more for a custom fiberglass door panel to be made by a pro audio shop. So, since that's not going to happen I have to live with that limitation from the door's poor design. My install skills are just fine.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Jimi77 said:


> Personally, I'd just get to the root cause of the subbass cancellation or perhaps that sub just doesn't respond above ~60hz. OTOH the OPs install skills are suspect since he can't even stop his door panels from vibrating due to the massive midbass output of the Infinity Refs.


There is no subbass cancellation. It's an absorption from the seats and other materials in the car. The cheapest way to get additional SPL in the 60-90Hz range is to get those 6x9s out of the baffles. The best way to preserve the SQ of the 6x9s and avoid distortion is to build a sealed enclosure for each one. If I leave them as free air, the sub will push them around and distort them. I've had that happen before in a previous car install in my last car. I'm not going to have a rear deck that farts occasionally or makes flapping sounds. This install will maintain some semblance of sound quality dammit!


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Dangerranger said:


> The more of an enclosure you make for said 6x9s, the more you're hindering the output of your subwoofer, and the more pressure you create in the trunk due to not having a good way to couple the trunk with the cabin. The enclosure will also consume airspace in the trunk, causing a smaller volume in the trunk and the typical "trunk bass" effect will worsen. When the only way for air to couple with the cabin is through a heavily upholstered seat, you're only creating more pressure in the trunk and hindering the subs SPL capability, and on top of that the seat acts as a low pass filter to the subwoofer because the long wavelengths of low bass notes are going to pass more efficiently than upper bass notes will. If you removed or relocated those 6x9s, the trunk would couple with the cabin more efficiently. It might even improve your 60-100hz output _from the subwoofer_ by a good bit. The 6x9s on the other hand will be hindered in any enclosure smaller than I'd estimate 2 cubic feet EACH if not more than that, and while they might contribute a bit to midbass output, they still won't keep up with the subwoofer at that point, and they definately won't put out as much as the subwoofer would if it were covering that frequency range.
> 
> 
> http://manuals.harman.com/INF/CAR/Owner%27s%20Manual/ReferenceME_OM_2006.pdf
> ...


The rear seats surprisingly are transparent to all bass frequencies. I did an experiment to prove this already because I thought the same thing you did. I initially thought the back seats were absorbing the mid-bass. I tested the theory and found that it was a completely FALSE assumption. With the rear seats folded down and the trunk completely open to the car cabin, the SPL of ALL bass frequencies remained unchanged. Not even 1db of difference was showing on the meter whether it was 30Hz or 60Hz or 80Hz. The seats up or down were inconsequential.

Infinity answered me in emails and they seemed to think a .5 cubic foot cabinet would be decent but not ideal. 

Let me pose another question. Could an alternate 6x9 design involving a bass reflex enclosure with a port through the rear deck into the back of the cabln help things? It was suggested to me but seemed to me likely to cause more problems with uneven frequency response.


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## tophatjimmy (Dec 16, 2005)

This thread makes me want to







, then


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Let me pose another question. Could an alternate 6x9 design involving a bass reflex enclosure with a port through the rear deck into the back of the cabln help things? It was suggested to me but seemed to me likely to cause more problems with uneven frequency response.



The 6x9s simply won't work with a bass reflex design. Qts and Fs is way too high. 

What you could do, from an SPL standpoint, if you REALLY want to use the 6x9s, is make a bandpass enclosure for the sub and route the ports through the rear deck. Bandpass boxes can sound quite good if designed correctly, really they're the lowest distortion enclosures out there, just the worst in delay characteristics. That would leave your trunk open for IB from the speakers, and get more SPL from the sub.

You'd mentioned if you had the money you'd put two 6.5" drivers in each door, I don't know your car or what kind of fabrication it'd take but why not consider putting those 6x9s in the front doors? And if you wanted to use the 6.5s as well you could put them in some kick panels? It'd give you the SPL you'd want in that frequency range


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> There is no subbass cancellation. It's an absorption from the seats and other materials in the car. The cheapest way to get additional SPL in the 60-90Hz range is to get those 6x9s out of the baffles. The best way to preserve the SQ of the 6x9s and avoid distortion is to build a sealed enclosure for each one. If I leave them as free air, the sub will push them around and distort them. I've had that happen before in a previous car install in my last car. I'm not going to have a rear deck that farts occasionally or makes flapping sounds. This install will maintain some semblance of sound quality dammit!





tspence73 said:


> The rear seats surprisingly are transparent to all bass frequencies. I did an experiment to prove this already because I thought the same thing you did. I initially thought the back seats were absorbing the mid-bass. I tested the theory and found that it was a completely FALSE assumption. With the rear seats folded down and the trunk completely open to the car cabin, the SPL of ALL bass frequencies remained unchanged. Not even 1db of difference was showing on the meter whether it was 30Hz or 60Hz or 80Hz. The seats up or down were inconsequential.
> 
> Infinity answered me in emails and they seemed to think a .5 cubic foot cabinet would be decent but not ideal.
> 
> Let me pose another question. Could an alternate 6x9 design involving a bass reflex enclosure with a port through the rear deck into the back of the cabln help things? It was suggested to me but seemed to me likely to cause more problems with uneven frequency response.


you are walking your self full circle there  you did not read a damn thing I posted did you?


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

tophatjimmy said:


>


love it


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

1500 wrms on the 6x9s aperiodic 6th order compound clamshell bipolar horn should work.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

chad said:


> you are walking your self full circle there  you did not read a damn thing I posted did you?


I'm pretty sure there is more pressure in the trunk with the seats up but with the seats down the difference in cabin pressure isn't audible from the SPL tests. I know the trunk has more pressure because I've seen my trunk flex out on certain hard beats while I was checking out my car from the outside. If you put a fan in the trunk blowing air at the front of the car, you will feel a breeze, if you put the seats up, no breeze. Same principle with the sub's air pressure with the seats up and down. The audibility of the low frequencies aren't affected by the seats being up, but the pressure will be.


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## skeeeon (Feb 21, 2008)

I'm sorry to say but I agree with most people in this thread in the fact that the subs aren't going to severely shake the 6x9's. Not the name drop in product in anyway but I recently installed 2 10w7's in a ported enclosure off a 1000/1 for a friend since he just "had to have them". He has them in a ported box in his trunk and does have 6x9's in the rear deck (even after my attempts to persuade him to ditch them). And they are not affected by "Violent Bass Air"


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

skeeeon said:


> I'm sorry to say but I agree with most people in this thread in the fact that the subs aren't going to severely shake the 6x9's. Not the name drop in product in anyway but I recently installed 2 10w7's in a ported enclosure off a 1000/1 for a friend since he just "had to have them". He has them in a ported box in his trunk and does have 6x9's in the rear deck (even after my attempts to persuade him to ditch them). And they are not affected by "Violent Bass Air"


After my last car system experience with the 6x9s making flopping noises, it's just giving me nightmares at the thought of letting them both operate in the trunk together.


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> I've already explained to you before pal that the door panel itself within it's own sandwich'd layers of plastic is where the buzzing is happening. It cannot be cured unless you want to pay $1200 or more for a custom fiberglass door panel to be made by a pro audio shop. So, since that's not going to happen I have to live with that limitation from the door's poor design. My install skills are just fine.



Yeah, not buying it. I'm sure I could bang out in a day and probably keep the costs under $20-30. Stuff the door panel as I suggested. Better yet leave them be and rather than fixing the issues you have build 6x9 enclosures. There is always a screwy way to get where you're going, so why take the beaten path?


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

skeeeon said:


> I'm sorry to say but I agree with most people in this thread in the fact that the subs aren't going to severely shake the 6x9's. Not the name drop in product in anyway but I recently installed 2 10w7's in a ported enclosure off a 1000/1 for a friend since he just "had to have them". He has them in a ported box in his trunk and does have 6x9's in the rear deck (even after my attempts to persuade him to ditch them). And they are not affected by "Violent Bass Air"



Interesting, I've always found free-air speakers don't fare well with a sub "banging" on them. I've actually seen cheap OEM foam surrounds fail due "volient bass air."

Personally I see no reason for 6x9s. They don't do a good job of producings mid bass and they usually don't do midrange well either, off-axis response sucks and if they're 3-ways they have the horribly harsh top end.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

chad said:


> you are walking your self full circle there  you did not read a damn thing I posted did you?


Hence the expression "Circle Jerk"


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Jimi77 said:


> Yeah, not buying it. I'm sure I could bang out in a day and probably keep the costs under $20-30. Stuff the door panel as I suggested. Better yet leave them be and rather than fixing the issues you have build 6x9 enclosures. There is always a screwy way to get where you're going, so why take the beaten path?


There is one idea I have considered trying. There is a spray foam that expands after spraying with an extended nozzle so I can get some kind of pressure/support in the areas I can't normally get to. It's the only fesible option I've come up with so far.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

These will do the trick
http://cgi.ebay.com/PAIR-6-X9-6x9-W...14&_trkparms=72:1205|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318
Buy it now price: US $2.99


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> I'm pretty sure there is more pressure in the trunk with the seats up but with the seats down the difference in cabin pressure isn't audible from the SPL tests.


Which proves to you that the seats aren't affecting the sub-bass frequencies, You tool a SPL _*MEASUREMENT*_, this is scientific data, use it!



tspence73 said:


> I know the trunk has more pressure because I've seen my trunk flex out on certain hard beats while I was checking out my car from the outside.


This is NOT scientific data, it would be scientific IF you took said measurements with the seat up and seat down AND measured the flex of the roof/doors with seat up and down. I just threw that comment out the window and am holding onto the SPL measurement.



tspence73 said:


> If you put a fan in the trunk blowing air at the front of the car, you will feel a breeze, if you put the seats up, no breeze. Same principle with the sub's air pressure with the seats up and down.


This proves your misunderstanding of the principles of constant air pressure and sound propagation, the subwoofers are not a pump as a fan, they oscillate the air pressure. and even IF they were the seat merely slows the "feel" of the air down from a CONSTANT source of pressure and the pressure would be equal in the cabin as it is in the trunk. If you were to cut a hole in your trunk and impose a pressure difference to the car and charted the pressure rise I think you would find that the rate of pressure increase would be nearly identical for both the trunk and cabin with the seats up. Not only that, BUT, if the grounds you were standing on could hold a feather then every time you closed your trunk lid your 6X9's would be in certain grave danger! Think about the surface area of your trunk lid and the amount of air moved on closing /vs/ the surface area of the 6X9's and their limited excursion to handle such pressures, big difference! On the other hand, IF this were an issue think about how many 6X9's and door speakers would be ruined daily from such a simple action as closing your door with your window rolled up!



tspence73 said:


> The audibility of the low frequencies aren't affected by the seats being up, but the pressure will be.



********, you PROVED this false with your Sound PRESSURE Level measurements. The next thing to do would be to take a SPL measurement in the trunk with the seats up and the seats down, if there is no change then the 6X9's are perfectly fine operating as they are intended to, free air, infinite baffle.


Here's another test, buy a $5 flea market 6X9 wood enclosure. Drill an assload of large holes in it, inside the enclosure place some foam and fabric over the holes, loosely, just line the enclosure, place the 6X9 in it, upside down if you want to. Place it on a table, place a sub in front of it, hammer the subwoofer with low freq, feel the movement of the 6X9, now take it out of the enclosure that simulates a SEAT, feel the movement, I'll bet it's the same. Aanna be MORE imperical? Place a good multimeter on the input terminals since the speaker WILL in fact act as a microphone, take a measurement in both apps. ****, for grins place the meter on your 6X9's as they are now with the amplifier disconnected, measure the output voltage of the 6X9 with the seat up and the seat down, THAT is scientific data!

Chad


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> These will do the trick
> http://cgi.ebay.com/PAIR-6-X9-6x9-W...14&_trkparms=72:1205|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318
> Buy it now price: US $2.99


Nope, with a 5/8ths inch board, those are not .5 cubic feet of volume. I already stated the minimum size the enclosure can be with polyfill and driver displacement. These boxes are too small.

The only post in this thread that gave me pause about the project is the one that brought up the fact that these enclosures will remove trunk space from the sub. I don't think losing a cubic foot of volume should be that big of a deal but maybe an engineer could tell us for sure?


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

tspence73, since you seem to know everything already why did you make this thread in the first place? If you aren't going to listen to those people who know more than you and are trying to help then don't waste time or server space.


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## falkenbd (Aug 16, 2008)

drop the 6x9s already. bridge the 4 channel amp on your front components or get a crossover and run them active. this might give you more midbass up front where it belongs.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Trunk space from the sub? Isn't your sub in a box in the trunk, seems like slight change in trunk volume would have very limited effect. My smallish sedan has 14cf trunk so about 1cf of 6x9 boxes would do little to my IB subs let alone a sub in its own box. What happens when you put something in your trunk or do you never use it for carrying stuff? If I put about two or more grocery bags full in my trunk I start to lose 20Hz, pretty sure 14cf is close to limit for IB of four 12s...makes me think two 15s would play a hair lower all being equal, just from reduced cone area and of course lower Fs/etc..


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

chad said:


> *You tool *
> 
> 
> This is NOT scientific data, it would be scientific IF you took said measurements with the seat up and seat down AND measured the flex of the roof/doors with seat up and down. I just threw that comment out the window and am holding onto the SPL measurement.
> ...



OK, now put a dot with a magic marker on a balloon [ blow into the balloon "only" making the dotted space move { you're the subwoofer in this example} !

Lemme guess ... the whole ****ing balloon is expanding


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

This is better than TV. But what isn't?


To the OP: These guys that have been trying to help you just _might_ know what they're talking about.


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> There is one idea I have considered trying. There is a spray foam that expands after spraying with an extended nozzle so I can get some kind of pressure/support in the areas I can't normally get to. It's the only fesible option I've come up with so far.


OMG!!! Just pack foam between the door and the door panel. If you prevent the panel from vibrating, then the loose crap attached to the panel won't vibrate either. This isn't rocket science.


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> There is no subbass cancellation. It's an absorption from the seats and other materials in the car. The cheapest way to get additional SPL in the 60-90Hz range is to get those 6x9s out of the baffles. The best way to preserve the SQ of the 6x9s and avoid distortion is to build a sealed enclosure for each one. If I leave them as free air, the sub will push them around and distort them. I've had that happen before in a previous car install in my last car. I'm not going to have a rear deck that farts occasionally or makes flapping sounds. This install will maintain some semblance of sound quality dammit!



If it's materials in the trunk, then do as I said - go IB or bandpass and vent the sub(s) directly into the trunk. Why is it that you insist on doing things any way but the right way? Have fun reinventing the wheel.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

A pic is worth a 1,000 words [ brought to you by TOOL INC ]


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Jimi77 said:


> OMG!!! Just pack foam between the door and the door panel. If you prevent the panel from vibrating, then the loose crap attached to the panel won't vibrate either. This isn't rocket science.


You can't. I already explained. The pieces of the door aren't only sandwiched in layers with small spaces in between, but these pieces are MELTED together at the attachments. I can't remove any piece of the panel.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> You can't. I already explained. The pieces of the door aren't only sandwiched in layers with small spaces in between, but these pieces are MELTED together at the attachments. I can't remove any piece of the panel.


Question for car dealer ?

Are the door panels unremoveable .... ah ! ha !

that explains the price !!


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

this should do it,


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

can I be a part of Team Violent Bass Air?


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Of course AWC!! Come on aboard!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> this should do it,


PETEY GREENE!!!!!!!!!


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Now I want watermelon. 


With a twang of salt.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Hey I'll waste some more time on this, lets look at pressure in a real basic way: Lets assume you have a 15cf trunk that is 1'x3x5 for easy math, and a square 12" sub that is nearly the cone area of a pair of 10" rounds. We will assume the trunk floor does not flex at all, so we have 3x5 top that is 15sqft plus front/back is 10sqft that's 25, then sides are 3 so 6+25 is 31 total. Now assume for a moment the trunk is not full of springy, compressible air but non-compressible water. This square sub has a huge xmax of 1 inch, in or out. So if it runs at xmax 1" into 31 sqft of area it would have to displace each sqft area 1/31", or each sqft of the trunk/box would move .0322 inch or +/- 1/31". Lets say 1/32 on a rule, not very much huh? That would be 1/16 total movement or flex from the sub running 2" total xmax, not counting the floor. That movement would give you zero pressure change in the box in theory, of course sound does not work that way but you see how the much larger interior area divides the function of pressure forces.

Of course air is springy, and large panels see more effect of pressure. The top alone would see 15sqft exposure, that would be about half of your 31sqft of area absorbing the sub's output. The center of it would move more if it were not rigid. Add to that panels will want to resonate at whatever their Fs is, thus the deadening we put on to lower that to something we don't hear much or to stop the movement. A panel resonating at a frequency the sub is playing could partially cancel it out. If this were a well built box of MDF and braced, it would not move at all....so obviously the air inside would compress against the walls and speaker, obviously that is what controls a sealed box speaker from excessive xmax. Except this is a 15cf box not the much smaller box a sub would be used in, and there is a lot more springy air in it so pressure variations would be much less (though they would be in 'waves'). The stiffer that box is, the smaller it is, the larger those pressure spikes would be right? The weaker the structure the more panels move and absorb that pressure. Then you have leaks in your trunk a box does not have, plus things like carpet or foam to deaden air movement. So in a big-weak-leaky trunk what do you get for pressure compared to a real box? What happens to the area of a 6x9 stiff IB speaker in that pressure? 

More or less you are looking at the 6x9 acting as a passive radiator but the box is far to big, even a passive in its own box only moves a lot because it resonates at the tuned frequency. In addition the radiator is typically larger or at least the same size as the driver. The passive is large enough to capture the pressure waves needed to make it move, tuned to move at that frequency, and in a small box with high pressure spikes....about the opposite of a 6x9 in a trunk.

I'm ignoring a bunch of other things that happen, but to be real basic that is close.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

tspence73 said:


> After my last car system experience with the 6x9s making flopping noises, it's just giving me nightmares at the thought of letting them both operate in the trunk together.


Violent bass air nightmares? Stay strong man.



> maybe an engineer could tell us for sure?


You have ignored several engineers' advice through the course of this thread. So, good one, guy.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Hey, SQShoestring, are you jol50?


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## drocpsu (May 3, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> You can't. I already explained. The pieces of the door aren't only sandwiched in layers with small spaces in between, but these pieces are MELTED together at the attachments. I can't remove any piece of the panel.












This is not a difficult concept. He's not saying to rip apart your door panel and fill it with foam. He's saying to put foam between the door frame and the door panel. Decoupling the panel from the frame should prevent the door panel from rattling as a result of the door itself vibrating.

I even sketched it up for you:


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

drocpsu said:


> This is not a difficult concept. He's not saying to rip apart your door panel and fill it with foam. He's saying to put foam between the door frame and the door panel. Decoupling the panel from the frame should prevent the door panel from rattling as a result of the door itself vibrating.
> 
> I even sketched it up for you:


Okay,

Maybe you missed it, but I have an upcoming project in late November to pod my comps and tweets into the door so that I my comps are angled more towards me and give better imaging. When this happens, they will be connected to the door panel. No way you can separate that now. lol










See my crappy illustration. There are parts to the plastic door panel that are hollow inside and inaccessible (that means I cannot open it or touch it). These hollow areas inside the plastic door panel are where the majority of the buzzing is coming from. I might be able to stick a spray can hose in there and fill it with spray foam to give it a bit more support. Other than that the only thing I think I could do is chuck the piece of crap and have a custom panel built that will drain my wallet completely.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

all these suggestions up to this point have onyl been band aids. you will not be able to fix this issue unless you follow the instructions outlined below.

step 1
- install second trunk

and there you go, no more violent bass air.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

benny said:


> Hey, SQShoestring, are you jol50?


Maybe Small diy world? Think I saw a$$hole too.


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> You can't. I already explained. The pieces of the door aren't only sandwiched in layers with small spaces in between, but these pieces are MELTED together at the attachments. I can't remove any piece of the panel.


Yes you can sandwich foam between the panel and the door. Furthermore, door panels can be taken apart and put back together.


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> See my crappy illustration. There are parts to the plastic door panel that are hollow inside and inaccessible (that means I cannot open it or touch it). These hollow areas inside the plastic door panel are where the majority of the buzzing is coming from. I might be able to stick a spray can hose in there and fill it with spray foam to give it a bit more support. Other than that the only thing I think I could do is chuck the piece of crap and have a custom panel built that will drain my wallet completely.



You're a bozo - my Focal Utopias are connected to a baffle attached directly to the door panel and sandwiching poly between the door and panel killed vibrations. Obviously you ignored my advise to see what I did on my SD webpage. Hey, don't listen us, hell we may know what we're doing. Why do you bother posting to these forums? Clearly you don't want our advise.

http://www.cardomain.com/member_pag...images/2/web/182000-182999/182031_40_full.jpg

http://www.cardomain.com/member_pag...images/2/web/182000-182999/182031_84_full.jpg


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Jimi77 said:


> Yes you can sandwich foam between the panel and the door. Furthermore, door panels can be taken apart and put back together.


I've already told you that these door panels don't come apart into pieces. If you don't own the car and have worked on it, then please STOP acting like you know what you're talking about.


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> I've already told you that these door panels don't come apart into pieces. If you don't own the car and have worked on it, then please STOP acting like you know what you're talking about.


I've worked on enough doors to know that they can be taken apart and put back together. Clearly you're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> I've already told you that these door panels don't come apart into pieces. If you don't own the car and have worked on it, then please STOP acting like you know what you're talking about.


You have officially proven the fact that you are an idiot. Please go back to either CA.com or ICIX now.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

WTF? Am I in a forum of morons? When I was applying Damplifier to my door, I looked over every part of the panel, trying to find some way to take it apart so I could kill the buzzing. Any place where it looked like it snapped together when they assembled it was MELTED and the panel fused so it couldn't come apart. THE PANEL DOES NOT COME APART YOU MORONS! If you cannot provide evidence that the door comes apart, then you shouldn't speak about it. I am the only one here who has removed, worked on, and already tried to take apart the door panel of a 2007 Sentra.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> WTF? Am I in a forum of morons? When I was applying Damplifier to my door, I looked over every part of the panel, trying to find some way to take it apart so I could kill the buzzing. Any place where it looked like it snapped together when they assembled it was MELTED and the panel fused so it couldn't come apart. THE PANEL DOES NOT COME APART YOU MORONS! If you cannot provide evidence that the door comes apart, then you shouldn't speak about it. I am the only one here who has removed, worked on, and already tried to take apart the door panel of a 2007 Sentra.


Actually no, you're not. I've done 2 installs in 2007 Sentras. I'm sorry to have burst your bubble. And I had no problems deadening out the doors. What's your excuse??


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> Actually no, you're not. I've done 2 installs in 2007 Sentras. I'm sorry to have burst your bubble. And I had no problems deadening out the doors. What's your excuse??


Ok, you've worked on 07 Sentra's? Okay, tell me what size of speaker you put in the door.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

In these hard times you own a 2007 w/6 x 9's ?

Our car dealers have 2006 model years Brand New all over the lot


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Oh, I'm waiting. I will know if you've worked on a '07 Sentra door and did the job right when you answer each question as I ask it. Most likely, you botched the work and I can tell you why. It's one of the most finicky doors to put speakers in.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Yeah, I smell bull in here. No answer. Just as I thought. This idiot claims he deadened the door panels of two 2007 Sentras. Depending on the speaker he put in the doors, that is impossible. Either he didn't really test the midbass at a high enough volume or he didn't test at all.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

I will see if Andy Wehrmayer has designed any speakers for the most formidable vehicle ever [ that are "Violent bass Air Tested ], Hey JBL working on anything yet ?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

If you want to get components , I believe all the HYBRID's are violent bass air proof !


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

The reason why a quick answer is important is because once an installer actually pulls up the install parameters on an 07 Sentra and goes about choosing a speaker, he quickly finds his choices are slim to none. If this guy has done even one 07 Sentra install he would know what speaker he could really install and which ones he couldn't, let alone if he did TWO 07 Sentras. The fact that he hasn't responded now tells me that he hasn't in fact done such an install because he's busy scouring the internet for info on what he can really put in the car now.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

If you live in Vegas could you put a bet down on UFC 61 for me ?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

People are trying to help you and instead of listening to people who are vastly more experienced than you you continue to act like a *******. As soon as you stop spending so much time trying to be right you might realize that your questions have already been answered and you might actually learn something.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

JUSTONEMOREAMP warned me once about the possibility of VIOLENT BASS AIR... 

I didn't listen and I blew the cones clean out of my 6x9's...

6x9's are for Bandit Trans-Am's... lose them and you'll thank yourself someday


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> Yeah, *I smell bull in here*.


Musta heard the "POP" !!


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Ok, you've worked on 07 Sentra's? Okay, tell me what size of speaker you put in the door.



According to Crutchfield.com you can get JL 6w3's in the front door...


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> People are trying to help you and instead of listening to people who are vastly more experienced than you you continue to act like a *******. As soon as you stop spending so much time trying to be right you might realize that your questions have already been answered and you might actually learn something.


Look. The jackasses all are acting like I don't know what I'm talking about with my own install, and then they give completely WRONG information about the door panel and then try to lie to everyone in here about having done an install on my model of car AND they also state something is a fact (disassembling the door panel) when in fact, it's impossible. Then they try to make me look stupid in front of everyone. Now, it's my turn to make them look stupid. When they can't tell me why my car door speaker install is highly unique and causes installers fits, then they don't know jack about my car.

If anyone hasn't listened, they have not listened to me. I heard their point of view and logic, but my experience with certain install problems don't match their "expert" advice. And when I tell them about it, they try to make me look stupid. That's not cool. I came here with a project, looking for answers on how to solve problems on a 6x9 rear deck install and how to avoid the 6x9s being jacked around by the sub's pressure in the trunk. 

I want 6x9s in the rear to work in my system the best way possible with as few compromises as possible. I didn't ask whether or not I should have 6x9s, I asked how to have 6x9s and have the best possible output. I got ONE. Only one, serious alternative. The one to build a bandpass box and route the ports through the rear deck, then let the 6x9s have the trunk as an IB. Other than that, I haven't gotten any alternatives.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

People aren't trying to make you look stupid, you're doing a good enough job on your own.

By your own measurements you said the spl is the same with the seats down or up. If the measurement is the same then the pressure is the same in the cabin as it is in the trunk. How is it going to help isolating them from the trunk if there is just as much vba inside the cabin?


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> According to Crutchfield.com you can get JL 6w3's in the front door...


I can guarantee you that will NOT install in a 07 Sentra front door without mods to the panel. The rear mount depth is limited to 2.75" and the front mount is listed as .75" but it's really like .15". There is only ONE type of speaker that will fit in the 07 Sentra door without mods being required to the door panel to avoid the speaker touching the door panel. That is a 5 1/4" component speaker. Not even a coax will fit due to the protruding tweeter.


When I called Crutchfield about my installation problems, they refused to guarantee ANY speaker will install in my door due to the extremely low frontal speaker clearance. What not even Crutchfield knew was that the lower half of the 6x9 oval in the door is so close, any speaker you put in there that occupies that space will be touching the door panel. I've got the grill marks from the panel embeded in the rubber surround of my Reference comps to prove it. I had to cut the door panel like a surgeon and put a 6x9 plate over the cutout in order to clear the space to allow the speaker to move without touching the door panel and buzzing. I tried to shave down the panel but no amount of shaving of the door panel solved it. Only a full door panel mod cured the problem. So, I can guarantee you that no subwoofer will work in that door. Oh yeah, and before I even started to try and mod or shave the panel, I took my car to a professional installer (the kind of shop that does pro fabrications) who took a look at it and said modding the panel is necessary for any speaker bigger than 5 1/4".


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> People aren't trying to make you look stupid, you're doing a good enough job on your own.
> 
> By your own measurements you said the spl is the same with the seats down or up. If the measurement is the same then the pressure is the same in the cabin as it is in the trunk. How is it going to help isolating them from the trunk if there is just as much vba inside the cabin?


I will perform a test. I will run the sub with the seats up and look at how much the trunk lid moves. Then I will put the seats down. and observe. If the trunk lid at the same volume moves less with the seat down, then there is more pressure in the trunk with the seat up, which is my prediction but I could end up wrong. I'll report the results either way honestly. If the pressure is higher in the trunk with the seat up then it's pretty obvious that it will effect the 6x9s. I'll keep an open mind and test the theory. Heck, I'll even take off the baffles when I do my door pod project in a month just to test if removing the baffles works well.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

You already performed the test you need, you took SPL measurements. What do you think the "P" in SPL stands for?


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> I can guarantee you that will NOT install in a 07 Sentra front door without mods to the panel. The rear mount depth is limited to 2.75" and the front mount is listed as .75" but it's really like .15". There is only ONE type of speaker that will fit in the 07 Sentra door without mods being required to the door panel to avoid the speaker touching the door panel. That is a 5 1/4" component speaker. Not even a coax will fit due to the protruding tweeter.
> 
> 
> When I called Crutchfield about my installation problems, they refused to guarantee ANY speaker will install in my door due to the extremely low frontal speaker clearance. What not even Crutchfield knew was that the lower half of the 6x9 oval in the door is so close, any speaker you put in there that occupies that space will be touching the door panel. I've got the grill marks from the panel embeded in the rubber surround of my Reference comp to prove it. I had to cut the door panel like a surgeon and put a 6x9 plate over the cutout in order to clear the space to allow the speaker to move without touching the door panel buzzing. I tried to shave down the panel but no amount of shaving of the door panel solved it. Only a full door panel mod cured the problem. So, I can guarantee you that no subwoofer will work in that door.


I don't have any idea if it will fit or not... I know nothing about 07 Sentra's... In fact I wouldn't know one if I saw it on the street. 

I was just passing on information I found when I did a little research... 

You're not going to find many people on this site that believe you're going to get good sound with a pair of 6x9's playing the full spectrum from behind you. People serious about staging and imaging and all of those other SQ (I hate that acronym by the way) buzzwords will rarely even use rear speakers and when they do they are making little sound, they are just there to fill the rear... like reflections in a concert hall.

Personally, I would beef up the front and leave the 6x9's openings open so there will be more transmission into the interior from the sub... but that's just my opinion...


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> You already performed the test you need, you took SPL measurements. What do you think the "P" in SPL stands for?


I just have my doubts and want to test for myself. If this proves true then it seems that the pressure from the sub is high enough that there is no way to prevent the sub from distorting all the drivers in the car. I assume that would only happen in one of those super 140+db SPL cars. I'll test it out. I have to think that the back seats are damping at least some of that pressure.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> I don't have any idea if it will fit or not... I know nothing about 07 Sentra's... In fact I wouldn't know one if I saw it on the street.
> 
> I was just passing on information I found when I did a little research...


Ah. I checked Crutchfield. The subs listed on there are called "compatible" while all the other speakers that really do fit are called "it fits". I suppose "compatible" means, "if you mod the door". LOL. Oh, by the way, I have my doubts the two 6.5" speakers listed on Crutchfield actually "fit" like they claim.


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## WolfSong (Aug 16, 2008)

There's an easy solution to "Violent Bass Air"

It's called Beano or Gas-X... they are available in your pharmacy.

Honestly dude, if you'd been serious about getting answers you would've lost the attitude and shut up and tried listening a long time ago... the word for what you're doing right now is "Troll", it's an internet term, look it up if you're not familiar with it.

I honestly can't believe I wasted time reading this thread, but at least I was able to get a fart joke out of it.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

im sure ive farted a 20hz tone a few times.....for 3 or 4 seconds 


bass race?


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> WTF? Am I in a forum of morons? When I was applying Damplifier to my door, I looked over every part of the panel, trying to find some way to take it apart so I could kill the buzzing. Any place where it looked like it snapped together when they assembled it was MELTED and the panel fused so it couldn't come apart. THE PANEL DOES NOT COME APART YOU MORONS! If you cannot provide evidence that the door comes apart, then you shouldn't speak about it. I am the only one here who has removed, worked on, and already tried to take apart the door panel of a 2007 Sentra.



Every door panel I've ever worked on is assembled like that. They can be taken apart and reassembled. You're clearly lacking in install skills, then you come onto these forums asking for help and call us morons when we try to help you. Good freaking luck.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> I came here with a project, looking for answers on how to solve problems on a 6x9 rear deck install and how to avoid the 6x9s being jacked around by the sub's pressure in the trunk.


And what you have been told is that indeed the by nines will see pressure, but that pressure will be equal on each side of the cone and that they will not only survive but probably not have any noticeable IM distortion.



tspence73 said:


> I will perform a test. I will run the sub with the seats up and look at how much the trunk lid moves. Then I will put the seats down. and observe. If the trunk lid at the same volume moves less with the seat down, then there is more pressure in the trunk with the seat up, which is my prediction but I could end up wrong. I'll report the results either way honestly. If the pressure is higher in the trunk with the seat up then it's pretty obvious that it will effect the 6x9s. I'll keep an open mind and test the theory. Heck, I'll even take off the baffles when I do my door pod project in a month just to test if removing the baffles works well.


How are you going to measure said movement? I still think the best bet is to measure SPL in the trunk with the seats up and seats down as you did in the cabin, that should give you some good numbers to run with. For doing it with the seats up and trunk closed you can use a camera on self timer.

Chad


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Jimi77 said:


> Every door panel I've ever worked on is assembled like that. They can be taken apart and reassembled. You're clearly lacking in install skills, then you come onto these forums asking for help and call us morons when we try to help you. Good freaking luck.


Okay. How do you take it apart then? A jigsaw? A blowtorch? Just curious because the thing does not come apart by pulling or flexing it. If you can find some manufacturer instructions on disassembling the panel, it would be appreciated too. I couldn't find any.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Wonder {or pry bar ], bar will get you started ...

Ok, now that you realize there is no such thin as a one piece door [ glass, metal, plastic, etc.., ].

It's off to the dealership to buy new parts , just like the old ones you broke ... because you are a tool !


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## James Bang (Jul 25, 2007)

I had the same exact problem once. my 54"s (6x9=54) we being attacked by the Violent Bass Air coming from my ported 15". 

I then uninstalled the pair of 54"s and sold them and put the money into a nice frontstage.

What I never understood was why a pair of 54"s = 108" couldn't overpower my measly 15" subwoofer.

HTH


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> Okay. How do you take it apart then? A jigsaw? A blowtorch? Just curious because the thing does not come apart by pulling or flexing it. If you can find some manufacturer instructions on disassembling the panel, it would be appreciated too. I couldn't find any.


Post up a pic of your door panel (close to where the problem is)... someone will know how to get the pieces apart... it can be done without ruining the door. You may need to plastic weld or ca glue it back together, but anything that was at one time "put together" can "come back apart"


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> Wonder {or pry bar ], bar will get you started ...
> 
> Ok, now that you realize there is no such thin as a one piece door [ glass, metal, plastic, etc.., ].
> 
> It's off to the dealership to buy new parts , just like the old ones you broke ... because you are a tool !


It's a door panel not a whole door. I called Nissan for a part breakdown. There are only two parts aside from the main door panel you can buy. The armrest cap and a small finisher piece. I asked if I managed to remove the bottom skirt of the door, could I get a part for that. He said "no, if you were to get that off, you would have broken it and the entire door panel would be the replacement part". There is the answer to your question from the dealer parts ordering department. Have a nice day "tool", as you try to label me as so often.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> Post up a pic of your door panel (close to where the problem is)... someone will know how to get the pieces apart... it can be done without ruining the door. You may need to plastic weld or ca glue it back together, but anything that was at one time "put together" can "come back apart"


The only way I see that it can come apart is if I used a hot soldering gun to melt the connections back apart. Basically melt what they hot-meltded together.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

tspence73 said:


> The only way I see that it can come apart is if I used a hot soldering gun to melt the connections back apart. Basically melt what they hot-meltded together.


You can try to melt the weld... but it's hard not to melt something you want though. 

Get yourself a forstner drill bit... it's a bit that drills out a squared off at the bottom hole and not a V like a regular bit, get one that is the size of the melted circle... drill that out... fix the buzz, then CA glue it all back together... get some heavy duty CA glue... put a piece of damping mat over the seam to help and it should be fixed.

Again... this is all my opinion.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

I put up a new thread with an alternate idea for any who want another topic to flesh out. But please stay on the door panel mod topic. I might find something useful I can use to help.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

WolfSong said:


> There's an easy solution to "Violent Bass Air"
> 
> It's called Beano or Gas-X... they are available in your pharmacy.


No that would be 'violent azz air' not *B*ass air right? Heck I'd like rear speakers that 'farted' at me once in a while, I'd have something to laugh about while driving.

You have to get crafty with things like door panels, have to be careful and figure how to get it back together. I've stitched things back together by hand with fish line. Some things goop works good on too. I've filled areas with silicone before, tubes are pretty cheap...just a little stinky for a bit. Once someone tossed one of those mattress pads, I still have some left.


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> I put up a new thread with an alternate idea for any who want another topic to flesh out. But please stay on the door panel mod topic. I might find something useful I can use to help.



I already told you what to do on CAF. Of course we already explained the "foam sandwich" fix with sketches, pics, etc. Me thinks you don't actually want to fix anything. 

http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=305708&page=4


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## pontiacbird (Dec 29, 2006)

in the next couple months, i'm going to try an IB subwoofer setup that is sharing airspace with my 6x9 midbass in the rear deck.....

hopefully you will find the link, but this will be a true test to your hypothesis, as an IB setup will no doubt pressurize the trunk much more than a traditional sealed subwoofer in the trunk.....

hopefully i get good results


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Jimi77 said:


> I already told you what to do on CAF. Of course we already explained the "foam sandwich" fix with sketches, pics, etc. Me thinks you don't actually want to fix anything.
> 
> http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb3/showthread.php?t=305708&page=4


I'll try a few innocuous things first but if it comes down to having to take the bold risks, I don't think I'll go that far. Door panels are really expensive to replace.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Oh another thing,

I may not show it, but I appreciate the advice you guys are giving. I am trying to keep a more open mind about my projects and getting help here. If it seems like I'm fighting advice is because I don't want to screw up and cost myself money or ruin something. I'm not trying to be an ass or a knucklehead, I'm just trying to be careful. I have a limited budget to work on this hobby and can't afford mistakes to cost me money. So, I'm skeptical and will always doubt things I'm being told if my past experience is something opposite. It seems like certain people are getting overly offended by my reluctance to accept advice, but it's not for the reasons some people seem to think. So, please be cool and don't harrass me so much. I'm just trying to do the best I can.


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> I'll try a few innocuous things first but if it comes down to having to take the bold risks, I don't think I'll go that far. Door panels are really expensive to replace.



It doesn't get more "innocuous" than foam sandwiched in the door.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

Jimi77 said:


> It doesn't get more "innocuous" than foam sandwiched in the door.


Can you put a link up for this "foam" you are talking about? What does it look like? Where do I buy it?


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

tspence73 said:


> Can you put a link up for this "foam" you are talking about? What does it look like? Where do I buy it?


It's sheet foam sold at craft, hobby, fabric stores. You can try the egg crate acoustical stuff from partsexpress.com as well, but the cheap stuff has worked for me.


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## Pseudonym (Apr 17, 2006)

7 pages of comedy. how has none of this dawned on this guy yet?


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Pseudonym said:


> 7 pages of comedy. how has none of this dawned on this guy yet?


 Dunno, but I think some people ask for help to do something, and others ask for help just to see if their plans they already made are good. Then they might not want to admit they did not make the right plan, or could just be really picky or exploring every minute option? Who knows but at least he has not yet asked what new sub would be best to get.


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

sqshoestring said:


> Dunno, but I think some people ask for help to do something, and others ask for help just to see if their plans they already made are good. Then they might not want to admit they did not make the right plan, or could just be really picky or exploring every minute option? Who knows but at least he has not yet asked what new sub would be best to get.


I don't need to. I will be upgrading eventually to a pair of RE SE 12" DVC subs (wired to 1-ohm together) in a 1.18 cuft sealed box each. And as for the 6x9s, I will be removing the baffles off of them to find out what they sound like. I could have been paranoid about the "violent bass air" , I'll find out.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I'm very supportive of trying and observing stuff. Calculating is great but it only goes so far. Between incorrect or non existent manufacturer specs and unknown IB 'enclosure' qualities, to vague amplifier output ratings...you can look/listen and know what it is doing rather than trying to figure it out like you can with a closed box that has more known characteristics. For powerhandling you always need to look at xmax you are getting, same with this you have to verify pressure interference while in use and then verify it is overpowering the motor of the driver and actually affecting sound or operation of driver. I guess maybe if you are a physicist you could figure it out but I'm not, and if one could it would take too long to gather all the figures needed anyway.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

How have I missed this thread!??!?! 



That explains alot of siggy's going around..VBA and such...and I was gonna offer advice...looks like thats been covered...I feel like I've missed out on a good piece of DIYMA comedy here...damn...


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

Pseudonym said:


> 7 pages of comedy. how has none of this dawned on this guy yet?



He's kinda like a troll, except he is actually into car audio.... He does the same thing on CAF. He could have driven to the craft shop, bought the foam and installed in the time he wasted arguing about how it would work. Then he could have posted "Foam sandwich didn't work, what should I try now?" and actually make some progress.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Don't worry, Zach had to tell me about this thread. It's been way more entertaining reading this than donning and doffing my gas mask all day! lol


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## Gas Is Expensive (Aug 26, 2008)

So whatever happened?

Tears are streaming down my face right now. I must know.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Oh come one we've been doing so well not to bump the tspence threads...you my friend are TSpencing....the YSHSF is great place to get help...we're all here for you...sorta...unless you bump 2week old tspence threads...in which case...your on your own...


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## omar_uh (Mar 29, 2009)

60ndown said:


> get a 1500 watt amp for the 6x9s so they keep up with the bass.


LOL, you are on target with what many want in this thread


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I am ****ing tired of newbies trying to increase their thread counts by pulling dead threads... damnit.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> I am ****ing tired of newbies trying to increase their thread counts by pulling dead threads... damnit.


I kind of miss the VBA forum, it gave me a greater sense of belonging.

Or they just don't look at the date.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

fourthmeal said:


> I am ****ing tired of newbies trying to increase their thread counts by pulling dead threads... damnit.


By looking at his other posts it appears he may be wanting to do the same thing, he searched....


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## omar_uh (Mar 29, 2009)

sqshoestring said:


> I kind of miss the VBA forum, it gave me a greater sense of belonging.
> 
> Or they just don't look at the date.



sorry guys new to forums .... not trying to increase my post count or anything .... i haven't noticed the dates ... will keep that in mind from now on .... peace


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Well I've pulled dead posts up before if it is the subject I'm on at the time. No point in starting new if you just need to expand on the old post....IMHO. But this post happens to have some recent history here, lol, thus the response you are getting.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## ogg (Oct 13, 2007)

:laugh:This thread is so full of fail and win at the same time.:laugh:


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

lilmsprelude said:


> Epic thread is epic.


Hilarity for the noobs.:laugh:


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

OSN said:


> Hilarity for the noobs.:laugh:


You grave robber


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)




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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Tspence says: Infinity speakers rock !*


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Make your day with more VBA!!!


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## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

This ****ing thread delivers SERIOUS LULZ


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

You guys need to stop or I'll have to put quad 5x7 kappas in my rear doors, and I already have pyle subs....but I just don't think 5x7 are bass machines I need back there.


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## Jimi77 (Jul 4, 2005)

LOL - I haven't been on here in forever. I almost forgot about Tspence. He was a PITA over on CAF too.


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

Drink it down, noobs!


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