# One of my simplest builds in recent years :) -2010 RAV4



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Having just finished a mega two and half month install (that install log is gonna come later this month when i have time to organize the close to 600 pics ), its quite nice to do something very basic for a change.

This is perhaps the most simple install i have done in the past few years...and normally, I don't get to work on systems like this because people who want this type of build usually dont want to wait for months on my waiting list...but the stars sorta aligned for this one lol Last week my next customer asked if he can be pushed back a week, and a few hours later, this customer contacted me asking if i can squeeze in a simple project...perfect!  He actually started on the project himself, before he decided to come to me...one of the midbass was installed and the power cable was run, both of which i redid completely. 

so anyway, car is a 2010 Toyota Rav4. total work time from start to finish was 3.5 days 

Goals:

1. to obtain a noticably higher sound quality than stock (which was pretty horrid i have to say)

2. Keep everything completely hidden, not an ounce of room taken up.

the customer provided all the equipment, except the sub, which he had two infinity reference 10s, but after looking at the size and dimension of the cargo well, we decided to switch to a Arc Audio ARC12 instead.

lets get started.

the Signal starts with a JVC KW-AV50 double din dvd headunit...installed via a Scosche kit he gave me:










I ran the usb cable from the headunit to the upper storage box above the glovebox:










a quick shot of the kit and wiring organization behind the headunit:










For speakers, he chose a set of JL Audio C2650 6.5" comp set.

The doors were sound proofed and two pairs of speaker wires ran into the doors:










Then i encountered a problem. Normally, doing stock location tweeters on these cars are very simple, you take the OEM tweeter bridge mount, cut out the middle and sink in the new tweeter, but when i opened up the car, i discovered that the customer had already removed one of the tweeter mounts, and thrown it away. So i was left with the option of justing one oem tweeter mounting and then rig up another one using metal straps, but ultimately, i was too anal to do that...so instead, i came up with a ring set up to be flushed into the OEM tweeter grille.

here are the tweeter rings and the midbass spacer adapters:










which were both treated with truck bedliner:










The midbass adapter was secured to the door using bolts (OEM speakers were riveted on):


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

and the JL midbass insatlled:



















the same process was repeated on the passenger side:





































so here is how the tweeter mounting works, first the JL tweeters were flushed into the rings:










and then the rings were press fit into the OEM tweeter grilles, a thin dab of hot glue ensures it doesnt come out:










and the grilles were snapped back onto the door. done!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Now a few pics of wiring bundles as it goes from the front to the back of the car...ziped tied to the stock loom every few inches...

on the driver side are the left speaker cables, the remote turn on and the rca cables










Note: not my T taps, they are from the dealer installed "alarm" i believe 




























on the passenger side is the main power cable and the right side speaker wires:


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

moving on to the back...so here is the normal view, which is 100 percent stock looking...nothing stands out:










Lift off the stock cargo mat, and here is what you see. the section of the floor that used to go over a storage bin has been replaced with a new floor. we talked about what color to do it in...no tan carpet thats breathable was a perfect match to the oem color, and the tan color gets dirty remarkbly easy, so we decided to do a black carpet instead. you see a custout int he middle thats a press fit, breathable grille.










lift that up and here is what you see. a single arc12 resides in a 1 cub ft sealed box, and the two pioneer amps he provided is on the right. a GM-D9500F 4 channel is bridged sending 200 watts to each front component set, and a D8500M mono powers the sub with 600 watts.

everthing is trimmed in tan vinyl. he also gave me a a rav4 logo and asked if i can incorporated it somehow, so it sits in a lil trimed area in the middle 





































a few quick builds pics, since this is so simple...

here is the raw subbox:










the top vinyled and the two JL passives bolted to the left side, and wires run out:


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

the trim panel and the little panel that the logo sits on before upholstery:



















tan vinyl on the pain trim panel, and 3m brushed aluminum vinyl wrap on the small piece:










and all fit together with the logo applied:










and secured to the car:


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

this is the top floor piece before and after carpeting:



















and breathable grill before and after carpeting:



















and finally a shot of the wiring organization below it all:










so thats it...not too bad for 3.5 days of work  as for sound? well obviously comapred to waht do normally, it pales in comparison...the JLs are okay, midbass is decent, but a bit on the bright side...but again for a speaker set in that price range its not too bad. the sub is more than adequate for this car. overall, way better than stock.

anyway, thats it...back to another big project 

cheers!

Bing


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## damonryoung (Mar 23, 2012)

Excellent, as always!


Sent from my iPhone.... Beware of AutoCorrect.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

You said "total work time from start to finish was" and.... Nothing  a mystery? 

Nice simple and clean though, I like it.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

oops sorry, fixed  3.5 days


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

simplicityinsound said:


> oops sorry, fixed  3.5 days


Lol, thanks!


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

That's a nice 3.5 days of work.


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## Video-kid (May 20, 2012)

Are those T-Taps? What will the 'Insiders' think?


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Video-kid said:


> Are those T-Taps? What will the 'Insiders' think?



yes they are, and they are from the dealer installed "alarm" system  i dont even own a T tap lol

but i added a notation for other insiders hahahaha


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## audiovibe (Nov 16, 2007)

I am starting to thing your a robot; every time it's a flawless install!

Thanks for sharing!


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Echo the sentiments by others, great job as always and immaculate for a 3.5 day job.



simplicityinsound said:


> ...the JLs are okay, midbass is decent, but a bit on the bright side...but again for a speaker set in that price range its not too bad.


Thanks for this impression...that's exactly my sense as well with the C2-650s in my wife's Smart. Definitely better than stock, but not in the same league with other front stages like the one I listen to every day (i.e. the XR Duo in my Civic).


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## Video-kid (May 20, 2012)

Figures. I should have made a crack about how nothing is soldered. Damn the luck.  I'm not a very good Insider, am I? On a side note, if t-taps make your ass bleed, your doing it wrong. They don't go in your butt.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Video-kid said:


> Figures. I should have made a crack about how nothing is soldered. Damn the luck.  I'm not a very good Insider, am I? On a side note, if t-taps make your ass bleed, your doing it wrong. They don't go in your butt.


lol oh yeah that whole sodering vs crimping debate lol no no i am staying far away from that lol but that last car i did soder a bunch of stuff including my own RCAs wooppeee lol


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

I like it. What kind of car was the big one you did?

Jay


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

JayinMI said:


> I like it. What kind of car was the big one you did?
> 
> Jay


2012 Hyundai Genesis 4.6


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Nice. I'm really liking the new Genesis Sedan R-spec. It's just a bit out of my price range. LOL

Jay


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## Driven Audio Tony (Feb 14, 2011)

Great work Bing. Love the detail of pics you take.

So he got the Rav4 logo from where ever and you made the base and wrapped just the base in the 3M?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Clean and simple, exactly what I'll be aiming for with my wifes civic. Minus the perfectly clean part. That will have to be farmed out.


On a side note, I should have listened to your advice on my build log lol.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Clean and simple, exactly what I'll be aiming for with my wifes civic. Minus the perfectly clean part. That will have to be farmed out.
> 
> 
> On a side note, I should have listened to your advice on my build log lol.


hehe i dont even remember what i said


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Lol, not to be a perfectionist or ill end up with a perpetually unfinished car haha.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

He's right. I'm collecting everything, and when I get it all together, I'm taking my vacation. When I'm off, I'm doing it all in one shot. Any thing that isn't quite right will get touched up after that. IT WILL BE DONE THIS TIME,lol.

Jay


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

Nice work! It's funny seeing my car being worked by a professional! I am so familiar with those door panels and the rear sub-cargo area after having swapped out multiple drivers and amps since last October in my '11 RAV4 sport. Your job looks much nicer but I do have mine covered by the trunk panels and carpet.

HOWEVER- don't be too sure about "simple". If your customer has an ear for sound they may be back very soon. 
This car is a complete bear that must be tamed and subdued in order to achieve good SQ. 

I have learned this the hard way over the past 8 months. It sounded bright for multiple reasons- 

1) The front doors are horrible bass enclosures- even when properly sealed and deadened.
2) The rear doors are great bass enclosures and need to be active.
3) The hard surfaces of the dash, glove box and console are awesome midrange reflectors! 
4) Thin glass and poor sound insulation in the rear panels allow road noise to cancel out the bass at highway speeds- and the vehicle needs lots of dampening in these areas. 

Even with the above knowledge and counter-measures I was still getting an overly "bright" sound- frequencies between 500Hz and 4Khz were literally 10 to 20 db higher than the rest of the sound spectrum. Even with RTA and a very flexible DSP I am still not finished tuning. 
My next step is a dash mat of all things to start absorbing some of the up front reflections. 

Nice work and good luck if your customer has discriminating ears!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

thanks bud. i have heard the c2 on a few occasions, and almost every instant i thought the same way. this time doing it with my own hands, i became sure. i know what you are saying, but at the same time...i think a lot is this spekaer and perhaps the location.l i mentioned it before the install go started on this, but the goal wasnt top notch sq, but a good improvement over stock  and plus speaker is a relatively easy job to swap later. i dont think the hump in this car's case is as low as 500, infact ot me the lower midrange frequencies were lacking rather than being too much. the hump to me starts at the 3k mark and goes up a bit more. there is virtually no tuning avaiable on this part form a 3band eq on the HU. 

its quite differnt than the average job i do but then again, the goals were similarly different


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

JayinMI said:


> He's right. I'm collecting everything, and when I get it all together, I'm taking my vacation. When I'm off, I'm doing it all in one shot. Any thing that isn't quite right will get touched up after that. IT WILL BE DONE THIS TIME,lol.
> 
> Jay


yeah get it done! having a good sq demo is invaluable, i lost count the number of sales i made by simply doing an audio demo, talking is easy, listening to a sound board is okay, but nothing convinces people more than an in car demo


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

avanti1960 said:


> Nice work! It's funny seeing my car being worked by a professional! I am so familiar with those door panels and the rear sub-cargo area after having swapped out multiple drivers and amps since last October in my '11 RAV4 sport. Your job looks much nicer but I do have mine covered by the trunk panels and carpet.
> 
> HOWEVER- don't be too sure about "simple". If your customer has an ear for sound they may be back very soon.
> This car is a complete bear that must be tamed and subdued in order to achieve good SQ.
> ...


one more thing though, you dont exactly have the smoothest speaker to begin with having done a few V30s  the focals in the middle and KRX lines are definetly more sizzle and laid back. have you tried a different set of speakers? i know you have a scan tweeter, but when i put one of the cars i did with the v30 on the rta, i saw a lot of midrange rise (800-1500hz), and thats all from the mid.

b


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Video-kid said:


> Are those T-Taps? What will the 'Insiders' think?


Why use the term insiders?

Isn't *installer* an adequate term?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

JayinMI said:


> He's right. I'm collecting everything, and when I get it all together, I'm taking my vacation. When I'm off, I'm doing it all in one shot. Any thing that isn't quite right will get touched up after that. IT WILL BE DONE THIS TIME,lol.
> 
> Jay


This is where I'm at. Collecting gear, testing ideas, etc. Since most of the car is being modified, I'm using it as an opportunity to do everything I wanted to do to the car before getting into audio, while much of it helps the audio side.


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## Video-kid (May 20, 2012)

GlasSman said:


> Why use the term insiders?
> 
> Isn't *installer* an adequate term?



It's a joke about another forum that Bing and I are on.


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## Video-kid (May 20, 2012)

simplicityinsound said:


> lol oh yeah that whole sodering vs crimping debate lol no no i am staying far away from that lol but that last car i did soder a bunch of stuff including my own RCAs wooppeee lol


I gave up on that a long time ago, too. You do good work, though, on a serious note. Attention to detail is lost on a lot of guys out there.


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## dales (Dec 16, 2010)

Video-kid said:


> I gave up on that a long time ago, too. You do good work, though, on a serious note. Attention to detail is lost on a lot of guys out there.


yea, but folks like Jeff martin, greg vaughn among others have this beatin into our way of living, right??? haha


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Until the day someone can sit in my car and tell me it sounds like a "crimped" car vs a soldered car...and until I have had a single failure with crimp caps and ziptie method out of the tens of thousands I have done...well... 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

Just to give a data point that isn't necessarily car audio but quite related...back in the day my wife and her EE team used to swear that everything had to be soldered for all their connections - she works on the electronics of NASA rovers for a living...but over the last decade or so, they have almost exclusively switched to using crimped connectors and zip ties probably for 95% of their needs much like Bing is pointing out. No degradation of performance and reliability experienced...in extreme environments no less (they test their rovers out in deserts, etc.). Most of the challenges they deal with is more mechanical and probably on the software side (dust and particles in the gears, etc.). But never has she ever experienced or complained about a faulty crimped connector vs. solder. Key is more so in having a quality crimper...


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

LOVE this also Bing, your just knock out clean installs everytime.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

papasin said:


> Just to give a data point that isn't necessarily car audio but quite related...back in the day my wife and her EE team used to swear that everything had to be soldered for all their connections - she works on the electronics of NASA rovers for a living...but over the last decade or so, they have almost exclusively switched to using crimped connectors and zip ties probably for 95% of their needs much like Bing is pointing out. No degradation of performance and reliability experienced...in extreme environments no less (they test their rovers out in deserts, etc.). Most of the challenges they deal with is more mechanical and probably on the software side (dust and particles in the gears, etc.). But never has she ever experienced or complained about a faulty crimped connector vs. solder. Key is more so in having a quality crimper...


if she can help dig up a NASA memo on this, i would love to share it with the installer forum haha


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

simplicityinsound said:


> if she can help dig up a NASA memo on this, i would love to share it with the installer forum haha


No memo, but something a few of us who worked on NASA robots collectively concluded. Yes, we both work for NASA and both EEs by training. I used to work on prototype space robots (i.e. for the space station) whereas she still works on rovers. I left the hardware side of the division 8 or 9 years ago and now focus exclusively on software, but touch hardware more of as a hobby (i.e. mainly this hobby  ).

The "rule" of solder at all cost and no connectors we concluded was a little excessive even for our NASA robots (don't know about you insiders  ). I'm not saying there isn't a place and time where you *should* solder vs. use connectors...for me, what I found were cases where having butt splices or other connectors impedes space requirements in the robot, so in those cases the best choice is to solder and heat shrink to maintain a smaller footprint...but quite a few of us collectively realized that isn't always the case and a well crimped connection is just as good...more often than not.

Also, given the average electrical engineer who may be an expert at integrated circuit design but may not have expert soldering skills, I'd prefer to arm them with a high quality crimper and connector than a soldering iron. Might find out the hard way there's a cold solder joint under that heat shrink... .


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## GLN305 (Nov 2, 2007)

I was NASA certified in soldering as well and I recently learned that crimping was the preferred method now as well. Heck, when I worked in aerospace, we crimped everything and only soldered components to boards. Of course our shop had thousands of dollars worth of specialty crimpers, so a bad crimp was hard to accomplish.



simplicityinsound said:


> if she can help dig up a NASA memo on this, i would love to share it with the installer forum haha


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

GLN305 said:


> Of course our shop had thousands of dollars worth of specialty crimpers, so a bad crimp was hard to accomplish.


My point exactly, almost anyone can crimp and ensure a solid connection with a quality crimper...but even a ten thousand dollar soldering iron isn't going to guarantee prevention of a cold solder joint .


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

simplicityinsound said:


> yeah get it done! having a good sq demo is invaluable, i lost count the number of sales i made by simply doing an audio demo, talking is easy, listening to a sound board is okay, but nothing convinces people more than an in car demo


Probably even works better when at least one piece of product in your car is something you actually sell. I'm planning to run old Sony Mobile ES amps, a bevy of speakers from Parts Express and either my BitOne (already have it) or selling it and picking up a 6to8 or PS8.

How did the customer like the Rav4?

Jay


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

simplicityinsound said:


> Until the day someone can sit in my car and tell me it sounds like a "crimped" car vs a soldered car...and until I have had a single failure with crimp caps and ziptie method out of the tens of thousands I have done...well...
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2


I am "real" old school- 

I use wire nuts and electrical tape and I do it right. Not one issue in 20 years. The key is to tape in a strain relief so the nut does not see any stress. Not as fast as crimped but it works for me.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

simplicityinsound said:


> one more thing though, you dont exactly have the smoothest speaker to begin with having done a few V30s  the focals in the middle and KRX lines are definetly more sizzle and laid back. have you tried a different set of speakers? i know you have a scan tweeter, but when i put one of the cars i did with the v30 on the rta, i saw a lot of midrange rise (800-1500hz), and thats all from the mid.
> 
> b


You're right, the Focal mids are part of the problem- they have great off axis midrange response. 
My other drivers were worse though- my first set were Alpine SPR 60 C's which had zero midbass and a harsh midrange, followed by some Silver Flute DIY drivers which were better but still not great and again, overly midrangey- and I told myself after buying the Focals that I was finished.

The reason I believe it's the environment up front is that my rear seat Focals sound incredible! Sitting back there with no hard dash or windshield or kick panels or console- It is one of the best sounding systems I have ever heard. 

Right now my front stage sounds very good but it has a boatload of EQ and crossover "gap". This is noticeable- I can't get the right balance- either the midrange is too muffled or too bright. 

If you believe another midbass driver would help in the RAV4 front environment, more midbass and less over the top midrange- then I would trust your judgement and recommendation. Thank you.


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## chevbowtie22 (Nov 23, 2008)

Awesome job!! Even this so called "simple" install looks amazing. I might have missed it but what are your thoughts on the JVC headunit?


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Video-kid said:


> It's a joke about another forum that Bing and I are on.


I know the forum.....I had a feeling thats what you were referring to.

Is that were everyone from ECA and Carsound hang out now?


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Top notch work Bing.

Don't short change yourself and refer to it as a quick install since all your installs are very solidly designed/built.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

papasin said:


> Just to give a data point that isn't necessarily car audio but quite related...back in the day my wife and her EE team used to swear that everything had to be soldered for all their connections - she works on the electronics of NASA rovers for a living...but over the last decade or so, they have almost exclusively switched to using crimped connectors and zip ties probably for 95% of their needs much like Bing is pointing out. No degradation of performance and reliability experienced...in extreme environments no less (they test their rovers out in deserts, etc.). Most of the challenges they deal with is more mechanical and probably on the software side (dust and particles in the gears, etc.). But never has she ever experienced or complained about a faulty crimped connector vs. solder. Key is more so in having a quality crimper...


I worked at several aircraft factories and whenever I was on the factory floor I noticed all the assemblies used crimps in the point to point wiring.

Think about it....

You could have a bad solder joint that looks good on the surface.

If your crimp tool and connectors used are good quality and your crimping technique is good that mechanical connection has _*much more integrity*_ than a bad solder joint.

And if you think about the forces exerted in a quality crimp it's more than likely better than a solder joint. 

If NASA determined crimps are superior than they're more than adequate for car audio....or any other hobby for that matter.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

GlasSman said:


> If NASA determined crimps are superior than they're more than adequate for car audio....or any other hobby for that matter.


Want to clarify that NASA does not deem crimping as superior, more that equally sufficient when both are done well (I've seen my share of bad crimpers too). To me, where it matters is the application and need. As I mentioned, when it's tight and I can't fit a connector, I won't hesitate to fire up the soldering iron...


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

avanti1960 said:


> You're right, the Focal mids are part of the problem- they have great off axis midrange response.
> My other drivers were worse though- my first set were Alpine SPR 60 C's which had zero midbass and a harsh midrange, followed by some Silver Flute DIY drivers which were better but still not great and again, overly midrangey- and I told myself after buying the Focals that I was finished.
> 
> The reason I believe it's the environment up front is that my rear seat Focals sound incredible! Sitting back there with no hard dash or windshield or kick panels or console- It is one of the best sounding systems I have ever heard.
> ...


if you have the chance to try out something different, i would...a lot of times people hear "harshness" and they go for the tweeter, but in my experince, a lot of the harshness results from the midrange sounding too forward, so it sounds like everyone is shouting at you...and that to me at least, seems to be in the 800-2khz region...so generally the midbass. 

i cant say without hearing your car if it is the issue, but if you have an rta, just leave the tweeter unhooked and see what kind of response you are getting?

b


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

GlasSman said:


> I know the forum.....I had a feeling thats what you were referring to.
> 
> Is that were everyone from ECA and Carsound hang out now?



carsound more than ECA...basically industry people.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

JayinMI said:


> Probably even works better when at least one piece of product in your car is something you actually sell. I'm planning to run old Sony Mobile ES amps, a bevy of speakers from Parts Express and either my BitOne (already have it) or selling it and picking up a 6to8 or PS8.
> 
> How did the customer like the Rav4?
> 
> Jay



well that was the case for me, but these days, with me not really pushing DLS, nor ID, and with the zapco dsp6 no longer produced...my system is a bit dated...but i am too lazy to redo it all so its gonna stay...until i get a new car i guess. 

the customer liked it, i think more than i did since i am a bit more anal on sound  abut i think for what he paid overall, its not bad. 

b


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## Video-kid (May 20, 2012)

dales said:


> yea, but folks like Jeff martin, greg vaughn among others have this beatin into our way of living, right??? haha


I'm sorry, what?


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Video-kid said:


> I'm sorry, what?


ditto


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

Even a simple install is still over the top for you Sir. Excellent work as always!


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

How in the world did I miss this thread a few months ago. It is a simple install as you state Bing but as usual you did it with style like no other. It actually has alot of similarities to the install in my vehicle which is the exact same - 2010 Toyota Rav4 but mine's a V6 LTD. I also have much higher level of equipment in mine.

I see my man Avanti found this thread however and I do agree with your assessment of the midrange issues with this vehicle. My problem spots are most definitely in the 800-about 3 kHz region. I am now running 3 way with the midrange and tweets on the dash now and that frequency area is still the problem area. I now have a problem with the midbass coming on like gangbusters starting around 250 Hz. I am running Hertz ML165 from the factory location with Scan 10f+Scan D3004 in my sealed dash pods which I am proud to say I did myself. I think they turned out alright but from swapping both the tweeter and midrange the pods were orignially designed for has them looking a little less than I like now. I can see myself redoing next year. Sigh. Maybe I will try doing tweeter above the midrange this time to gain a little more stage height. Who knows.

I am having to really bring alot of that midrange down in my dsp and I have been wondering lately if it could be that the pods are too small? Bing, in your experience, what does the rta plot look like for a speaker in a box that is too small? I am wondering if I would be better off just venting them into the apillar. I hate the idea of cutting a big old hole in the apillar (they are expensive here $250 a side) if it is not going to do anything for this. 

One last question for you Bing, when you had the doors off, did you happen to assess whether a larger midbass would be doable in those doors. I am looking at an 8-10 inch midbass. I sent you a PM for more info on those new Illusion Carbon 8s too which have me a little intrigued. I was looking at the Dynaudio mw182 mainly and still am I guess. I just want to make sure that it will go in stealthly like I plan before I shell out all that money for them. Thanks for all your time and great job on this one as usual!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

to be honest i am always and prolly forever will be a 6.5" midbass type of person...so asking me about 8-10" midbass i am not hte right guy to answer that question. i like 6.5s becuase they can extend up better in a two way system and i like the fast attack and decay they can generate, i generally to low pass my door speakers too low and prefer to stay at the 80hz range, maybe 60 at the lowest but thats rare. and a good 6.5" has always provided me with enough midbass impact.

also, i find in cars with smaller door cavities, some 8s can sound a bit muffled with a lot of coloration in the 125-250hz range. but of course i know there are plenty of guys who love 8" or large midbasses, but thats just my preference 

as for rta response of a speaker in too small of a box, its always going to have a bump somewhere...depending on the size of the sepaker of course, a typical 6.5" in too small of box will have big bump int he 100-300 range, i cant say for sure on midranges as i havent had that issue yet on the rta, but i know from listening it also sounds muffled, maybe in the 600-1.2k range? i am sure someone else can answer this one much better 

b


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> to be honest i am always and prolly forever will be a 6.5" midbass type of person...so asking me about 8-10" midbass i am not hte right guy to answer that question. i like 6.5s becuase they can extend up better in a two way system and i like the fast attack and decay they can generate, i generally to low pass my door speakers too low and prefer to stay at the 80hz range, maybe 60 at the lowest but thats rare. and a good 6.5" has always provided me with enough midbass impact.
> 
> also, i find in cars with smaller door cavities, some 8s can sound a bit muffled with a lot of coloration in the 125-250hz range. but of course i know there are plenty of guys who love 8" or large midbasses, but thats just my preference
> 
> ...


Bing, thank you so much for that response. You don't know how much it is helping me here. My problem is that I have never been able to have the luxury of hearing a midbass larger than 6.5 inches in a vehicle so I don't really know what to expect really. One of my fears going for bigger midbasses is that I would have to eq out the benefit as my midranges might not have enough output to keep up. I am even more afraid after hearing what you said about coloration in the 125-250 range. The other option I was thinking about is going with a set of Scan 18WU with the aluminum cone (the paper scares me with the climate we have hear). I would then have all Scan up front which is very appealing. Do you have any experience with that driver? Do you think it would fit in those doors? I am thinking yes as the basket slopes quite a bit and should clear the glass when fully down but once again a pretty big gamble if it doesn't fit.

Thanks for your thoughts on the midrange enclosure too. My peak seems to start around 800 and rise up to 2kHz where it is almost 10 db up. Nothing that my DSP can't handle but maybe I am losing clean output because of it is my thought. Maybe I will have to open up a thread on that specifically.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

james2266 said:


> Thanks for your thoughts on the midrange enclosure too. My peak seems to start around 800 and rise up to 2kHz where it is almost 10 db up. Nothing that my DSP can't handle but maybe I am losing clean output because of it is my thought. Maybe I will have to open up a thread on that specifically.


Since you have an RTA, why not use a shallow slope lowpass crossover (6dB or 12dB) in order to smooth things down in that range? start to LP around 500Hz and increase until you're satisfied... Might work 

Kelvin


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> Since you have an RTA, why not use a shallow slope lowpass crossover (6dB or 12dB) in order to smooth things down in that range? start to LP around 500Hz and increase until you're satisfied... Might work
> 
> Kelvin


I assume you mean to underlap my crossovers for midrange and tweeter here? I am running an active 3 way front. I did underlap my midbass to midrange crossover by 100 Hz to do excactly that at 250-400 Hz which was a crazy bump from my midbass. I am not sure how this would work for my midrange problem however as the hump I am eqing out is right in the middle of the passband. I could run the tweeter lower I guess but not sure that would cure the problem either. I am going to listen to the tune I did today for a while as I was pretty happy this afternoon. We'll see if I still am tomorrow. It's amazing how your opinion can change a day later when it comes to tuning


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

james2266 said:


> I assume you mean to underlap my crossovers for midrange and tweeter here? I am running an active 3 way front. I did underlap my midbass to midrange crossover by 100 Hz to do excactly that at 250-400 Hz which was a crazy bump from my midbass. I am not sure how this would work for my midrange problem however as the hump I am eqing out is right in the middle of the passband. I could run the tweeter lower I guess but not sure that would cure the problem either. I am going to listen to the tune I did today for a while as I was pretty happy this afternoon. We'll see if I still am tomorrow. It's amazing how your opinion can change a day later when it comes to tuning


I did not suggest the shallow slope earlier coz I did not know about the peak rise up from 800Hz... 
I like to use steep slopes as much as possible but I much prefer to use a shallow slope to "equalize" as much as I can without touching the EQ. I don't mind having 2 LPs either  
I'm doing it for my subwoofer in too-small-of-a-box (40Hz 12dB/oct + 160Hz 24dB/oct due to vehicle acoustic) and love it  

Kelvin


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> I did not suggest the shallow slope earlier coz I did not know about the peak rise up from 800Hz...
> I like to use steep slopes as much as possible but I much prefer to use a shallow slope to "equalize" as much as I can without touching the EQ. I don't mind having 2 LPs either
> I'm doing it for my subwoofer in too-small-of-a-box (40Hz 12dB/oct + 160Hz 24dB/oct due to vehicle acoustic) and love it
> 
> Kelvin


Hmm... I might just have to try that out. Maybe something like 1 kHz 6 db and 4 kHz 24 db or something like that? Would this cause any phasing issues tho? That probably would not be noticeable on a sub but in the heart of the midrange?


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

if you wanna get an idea of whats going on with your mid. 

remove ALL xovers from it, or put on like a 80hz highpass or something very low and play point noise at a low level and look at its natural response on the rta, make sure you do left and right separately.

thats what i do when i have a 3 way usually and something strange shows up on the graph


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

james2266 said:


> Hmm... I might just have to try that out. Maybe something like 1 kHz 6 db and 4 kHz 24 db or something like that? Would this cause any phasing issues tho? That probably would not be noticeable on a sub but in the heart of the midrange?


There can be phasing issue but IMO nothing T/A or an EQ can't overcome... 
Bing has a good point regarding RTA, play with slopes in order to have a smooth response - try for both sides separately... 

Kelvin


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> if you wanna get an idea of whats going on with your mid.
> 
> remove ALL xovers from it, or put on like a 80hz highpass or something very low and play point noise at a low level and look at its natural response on the rta, make sure you do left and right separately.
> 
> thats what i do when i have a 3 way usually and something strange shows up on the graph


I will try this out when I get the opportunity - hopefully this weekend. I am really thinking that my pods are too small ultimately however. It's tough finding the right enclosure volume it seems. winisd states 0.4 L as optimum yet Madisound (the only source I could find with suggestions) states it requires 1 L sealed. I am thinking my pods are probably lucky if they are 0.4 L and that is before speaker displacements. I am really thinking about venting them into the apillars. I don't want to mess up the pillars anymore than they already are but I guess they already have 2 little holes in them so why not one more larger one?


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

if you just play them naturally, and only one side at a time and no other speaker is playing at the same time, and both sides still have that hump, and then remove the pod and just aim them differecently a bit and it still does it,t hen you are almost certain its the pod making them do that...

at that point, if you are going to redo them anyway, take a hole saw and cut a vent on the back and see what happens to the response 

b


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

james2266 said:


> The other option I was thinking about is going with a set of Scan 18WU with the aluminum cone (the paper scares me with the climate we have hear). I would then have all Scan up front which is very appealing. Do you have any experience with that driver? Do you think it would fit in those doors? I am thinking yes as the basket slopes quite a bit and should clear the glass when fully down but once again a pretty big gamble if it doesn't fit.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts on the midrange enclosure too. My peak seems to start around 800 and rise up to 2kHz where it is almost 10 db up. Nothing that my DSP can't handle but maybe I am losing clean output because of it is my thought. Maybe I will have to open up a thread on that specifically.


You have to be the guinea pig for trying those scan drivers! for both fit and sound. 
if i remember correctly when the window is fully lowered it does cross the center axis of the speaker opening. the largest drivers i had in there were only 75mm deep and they were getting close with a 3/4" baffle. 
with the scan you might need a (2) step baffle- the first being triangular that mounts to the door, the second being round that can fit within the door card recess, total height ~1 and 3/4". 

also, with respect to your midrange enclosure, could the bump starting at 800 Hz really be a drop-off of frequencies below 800 Hz because of the enclosure? 
are they flat from 2K and up? 
If so you could just try and cross them over at 1500Hz or so. 

I doubt it is our vehicle acoustics that cause the uneven response when the drivers are placed at dash level. right now my midranges and tweeters see no EQ and ae basically flat from 800 to 16K without much effort. 

my previous midrange spike came with an old two-way passive setup and was also victim of a bad auto DSP tune.


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

avanti1960 said:


> You have to be the guinea pig for trying those scan drivers! for both fit and sound.
> if i remember correctly when the window is fully lowered it does cross the center axis of the speaker opening. the largest drivers i had in there were only 75mm deep and they were getting close with a 3/4" baffle.
> with the scan you might need a (2) step baffle- the first being triangular that mounts to the door, the second being round that can fit within the door card recess, total height ~1 and 3/4".
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I actually took Bing's suggestion earlier this evening. I was a little shocked by what I found but in kind of a good way actually. The response on those midranges was actually quite flat out to at least 5 kHz where things started to rise pretty good. Unfortunately I think the pods are slightly different in enclosure volume. The passenger side seemed to not have near the low extension as the driver's side. The drivers seemed to have good output down to about 300 Hz or so while the passenger seemed to dip down around 600 Hz or so. I ultimately ended up using a 12 db 400 Hz hi-pass on the midranges. I also went back to butterworth as that setup seemed to keep things the flattest down in that range. The upper end is sitting around 3200 Hz iirc. I had to play around with my polarity a bit but I think I got it. While I was doing this, I figured I would try making left and right balance. I ended up getting everything within about 1db from about 200 Hz all the way up. I didn't bother down lower than that as I have read that it is more about phase and time difference that low in frequency. I played a couple songs after and I was pretty impressed actually. I will see if I still feel the same tomorrow.

I must say I am surprised you say that you have basically no eq on your midrange/tweets and they are still flat from 800 Hz on up to 16 kHz. I do think I am a little pickier with my rta than you are however from our previous discussions. I certainly still need eq on these speakers although with the new crossover setup, I am using a little less now. I think most of the issues for me are window reflections. I also think bafflestep might be an issue especially with my tweeters. There seems to be something funky going on around 7 kHz with a huge narrow dip there (not visible in 1/3 octave however). I did have to reset time alignment a fair amount after tho (alot less delay on the driver's side speakers). I will have to see if that dip is still there as bad tomorrow. I did notice the issue on both pods however so I do think it is pod induced in some way. 

I might give that hole saw idea a shot this weekend on the passenger side to see if the sound improves tho. I would be chopping a big hole in the apillar as well as the side of the pod if I do that. I figure I already have 3 little holes in the pillars so the damage is already there anyways. I am still working on convincing myself however


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## stylngle2003 (Nov 2, 2012)

Excellent install, Bing. I remember seeing your posts on Volvospeed way back in the day.

My fiancee has an '08, so I am using this as a jumpoff point for what I'd like to do with hers.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

james2266 said:


> I must say I am surprised you say that you have basically no eq on your midrange/tweets and they are still flat from 800 Hz on up to 16 kHz. I do think I am a little pickier with my rta than you are however from our previous discussions. :


yes, you like your RTA a little flatter agreed. i'm showing +/- 3 db or so from 500 to 16K though with zero EQ- basically within spec of the drivers with no location effects. this makes it seems like the location may not be giving you the 7 to 10 db differences you were seeing. 

peace.


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## grinkeeper (Jun 26, 2015)

Well thanks for contributing all the great posts guys... I have a 2010 RAV4 that Im collecting olds schools gears fors OH YEAHS.

you have given me great ideas...


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## HereticHulk (Nov 8, 2009)

Having the same vehicle, running a DEH-80PRS in network mode to the passive crossovers for the aftermarket front components, and maintaining the stock woofer and tweeter locations, will the DEH-80PRS correct any staging issues, being that the tweeter and woofer are so far apart?


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## james2266 (Sep 24, 2009)

HereticHulk said:


> Having the same vehicle, running a DEH-80PRS in network mode to the passive crossovers for the aftermarket front components, and maintaining the stock woofer and tweeter locations, will the DEH-80PRS correct any staging issues, being that the tweeter and woofer are so far apart?


If you are running that HU in network mode there is no need for crossovers. It's the whole point of network mode.

The stock woofer location is a good one but you'll want to deaden the crap out of that door and cover all the gaping holes. The stock tweeter location is not ideal but can be made to work if running active.


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## Kevin K (Feb 11, 2013)

simplicityinsound said:


> if you just play them naturally, and only one side at a time and no other speaker is playing at the same time, and both sides still have that hump, and then remove the pod and just aim them differecently a bit and it still does it,t hen you are almost certain its the pod making them do that...
> 
> at that point, if you are going to redo them anyway, take a hole saw and cut a vent on the back and see what happens to the response
> 
> b



...sounds like some experienced wise advice given there, I would listen


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## chasintrane (Jul 29, 2012)

Simple but very clean! Nice work, as always!!

Bing, how many cars do you guys average a week in the shop?


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