# My new sub enclosure design. Check it out.



## ghart999 (Feb 8, 2006)

It's for 2 rl-P 12's in a Pontiac grand prix. Built by Pete Kulicki of PWK Designs.

It's a folded horn enclosure.


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

wow, thats nice design, 
quite a bit of time in that eh,
keep us posted..


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## ghart999 (Feb 8, 2006)

Yeah my big concern is being able to make this exact. 92.7 * seems so difficult.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

I wish I could see this at work- hope all is well in CO- wish I could have heard/seen the car before I left


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

that kind of a box i'd have to let a pro make for me. i wouldn't mess with that.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

Ahhh... it showed up... Hmmm- advantages? This is still going in you trunk right? I am not sure you will see the benifits, IMO


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

tcguy85 said:


> that kind of a box i'd have to let a pro make for me. i wouldn't mess with that.


Coming from a person that cut a hole in a prefab


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

For those not in the know:
Folded horn enclosures
A low frequency exponential/hyperbolic hybrid folded horn enclosure intended for use in proximity with at least one planar surface, such as a floor, ceiling, or wall, with access to the horn throat from the top of the enclosure. The horn is bifurcated at the throat and folds horizontally around a central trapezoid-shaped vertical back chamber which is reflex ported for enhanced low frequency response below the frequency cutoff of the horn. The back chamber outer sides define part of the horn channel, resulting in a relatively simple structure with a small footprint and no void internal space. The throat exponential expansion cross-sectional area is consistently maintained while the proportions of the throat channels are elongated to the height of the enclosure.


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## ghart999 (Feb 8, 2006)

TheDavel05 said:


> For those not in the know:
> Folded horn enclosures
> A low frequency exponential/hyperbolic hybrid folded horn enclosure intended for use in proximity with at least one planar surface, such as a floor, ceiling, or wall, with access to the horn throat from the top of the enclosure. The horn is bifurcated at the throat and folds horizontally around a central trapezoid-shaped vertical back chamber which is reflex ported for enhanced low frequency response below the frequency cutoff of the horn. The back chamber outer sides define part of the horn channel, resulting in a relatively simple structure with a small footprint and no void internal space. The throat exponential expansion cross-sectional area is consistently maintained while the proportions of the throat channels are elongated to the height of the enclosure.


That made me throw up in my mouth a little.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

Yeah!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

That ain't a folded horn, and unlike Davel's post they come in different shaped, he described a reflex horn or "w bin" It still ain't a horn, not even a "scoop" since the mouth dimensions are too small to act nothing more than a vent. An Aerovent to be more right.

This is Davel's example, one of my LabQ Lows, it's literally a mid-bass 










And yet there are different designs that are "folded" such as cerwin Vega's Earthquake that has a sealed chamber or the Bassmaxx designs that fire INTO a VERY large path length but have no enclosure for the driver itself except for the horn loading


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

chad said:


> Coming from a person that cut a hole in a prefab


exactly!  i DO NOT enjoy building boxes for some reason. i don't have the patience for it, and that thing is waaaay complicated.

but hey, my cut up prefab sounds great!


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

ive had rl-ps, ive had 'folded horns' 

if done right with about 1500 wrms on tap, it will rock anyones world.



But, the way this horn loaded design works is similar to having several ports working at several frequencies. We call it "a rubber throat" because the "port" if you will, or better spoken- "the mouth" of the horn changes in size and length depending on the frequencies it reproduces. I know this is hard to follow if you're not up on horn loaded enclosures so just remember the following: 

A port resonates at a given frequency determined by the length and diameter of the port, while a horn resonates at a HI frequency and a LO frequency and EVERY frequency between the two. For this reason the woofer is dampened at every frequency between LO and HI. That's why it has such phenomenal accuracy, gain, and bandwidth.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

tcguy85 said:


> exactly!  i DO NOT enjoy building boxes for some reason. i don't have the patience for it, and that this is waaaay complicated.
> 
> but hey, my cut up prefab sounds great!


The right tools, a heated garage, a ****ty winter day, and the need for some alone-time makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

chad said:


> The right tools, a heated garage, a ****ty winter day, and the need for some alone-time makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE


i guess one could enjoy it. 

and... you did the same things, you took a sealed box and made it into a ported box the same way i did. mine just looks a little prettier.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> ive had rl-ps, ive had 'folded horns'
> 
> if done right with about 1500 wrms on tap, it will rock anyones world.
> 
> ...



But not the design posted, unless you are talking about a DAMN high loading frequency, for example the one that I posted has a cutoff around 60 cycles, actually a bit higher  It's no longer a horn lower, unless they are coupled in multiples  A horn with an 800 cycle cutoff has a mouth dimension of about the size of the one the OP posted, and I meant 800 not 80....


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

I have 2 folded horn PA cabinets in the basement...made by my dad years ago...DAMN impressive to see 3/4 birch bent to make a horn...time to go take few piccies


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

tcguy85 said:


> i guess one could enjoy it.
> 
> and... you did the same things, you took a sealed box and made it into a ported box the same way i did. mine just looks a little prettier.


My current one looks like a hatch floor  Even moreso after last weekend


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

Not to thread jack...great looking design btw....good luck to ya!!! But heres a real folded horn...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I like the top one betta 

How many of the bottoms do you have?


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

chad said:


> I like the top one betta
> 
> How many of the bottoms do you have?


Don't wanna thread jack to much...ygpm!


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

chad said:


> My current one looks like a hatch floor  Even moreso after last weekend


i'm talking about your old "test" box.

anyway, thread jack over for me.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

As I asked previously- is this going to make much difference if it is going in his trunk? I have never done a side by side comparison between folded horn enclosure and a plain old vented one...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

TheDavel05 said:


> As I asked previously- is this going to make much difference if it is going in his trunk? I have never done a side by side comparison between folded horn enclosure and a plain old vented one...


Nope, it won't because it's vented 

But side by side, as long as the horn is loaded in it's passband it will destroy a front-loaded vented enclosure in terms of output on a per-driver basis. Say single15 to single 15. Poblem is they have to be HUGE to get low therefore in terms of truck-pack front-loads win. Especially since we have the power to drive them. I run all horn down to 60 in my PA but need twice to 4 times as many vented enclosures on the lowezey lows to keep up with them.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

That was kind of my asumption... Not going to notice it in the car much if at all- I would just go vented... thats a lie I always go sealed.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

TheDavel05 said:


> That was kind of my asumption... Not going to notice it in the car much if at all- I would just go vented... thats a lie I always go sealed.


I don't ALWAYS go either way in terms of an enclosure, I build it application specific to the car and/or driver


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## danssoslow (Nov 28, 2006)

ghart999 said:


> Yeah my big concern is being able to make this exact. 92.7 * seems so difficult.


I have built one of Pete's enclosures before. Search for an engineer's rule. I know I found one locally, possibly Harbor Freight? It was graduated in tenths of an inch.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

chad said:


> I don't ALWAYS go either way in terms of an enclosure, I build it application specific to the car and/or driver


Oh, professionally I build it to car/driver specs- Personal use, I go sealed- if I ever build an SPL machine for me again I may go vented but probably not.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Vented does not equate to SPL, I have yet to figure out the stigma


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

i have built a 21 inch x 14 inch (very small) decware 'folded horn' design (wo32 scaled to 21") using 2 x 6" drivers (cheap drivers $30 each?).

it gets incredibly low and has tons of output as is insanely accurate.

much better than any ported box ive ever heard,

i like 'correctly designed'  horns.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> Vented does not equate to SPL, I have yet to figure out the stigma


output from both sides of teh cone.= twice the output.= louder


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> output from both sides of teh cone.= twice the output.= louder


I should have stated, Vented does not equate to "spl sound."

You an I are both privy to the fact that there are some damn fine sounding vented designs out there


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> I should have stated, Vented does not equate to "spl sound."
> 
> You an I are both privy to the fact that there are some damn fine sounding vented designs out there


best sq bass i ever heard came from a 'folded horn',

my decware wo32 to be precise.


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

Words are being put in my mouth here I never said vented would be louder of produce a higher SPL... I simply stated that if I were to go SPL again I would probably go vented- My last sealed SPL setup was very impressive... 

I liked the comment about vented being louder because you get both sides of the cone, pretty good one.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> best sq bass i ever heard came from a 'folded horn',
> 
> my decware wo32 to be precise.


Bandpass, that's not a horn either 



TheDavel05 said:


> Words are being put in my mouth here I never said vented would be louder of produce a higher SPL... I simply stated that if I were to go SPL again I would probably go vented- My last sealed SPL setup was very impressive...
> 
> I liked the comment about vented being louder because you get both sides of the cone, pretty good one.



Many are going/have gone sealed with SPL for multiple drivers...it's smaller and you can Pack-Em-In!


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

chad said:


> Vented does not equate to SPL, I have yet to figure out the stigma


It may be because vented "sounds" or "feels" louder in some aps at its tuned freq-


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

chad said:


> Many are going/have gone sealed with SPL for multiple drivers...it's smaller and you can Pack-Em-In!



example: my 6 tens in my subaru-


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

TheDavel05 said:


> It may be because vented "sounds" or "feels" louder in some aps at its tuned freq-


Poor design, it should simply have lower USEABLE extension. Now don't get into assisted rigs


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

TheDavel05 said:


> example: my 6 tens in my subaru-


Precisely!


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> Bandpass, that's not a horn either


we've had this conversation before

http://www.decware.com/newsite/wo32.htm


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## TheDavel (Sep 8, 2006)

This thread is fun... it feels more like old DIYMA!!!!!!!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

60ndown said:


> we've had this conversation before
> 
> http://www.decware.com/newsite/wo32.htm


And I think we also decided that that small ass mouth ain't loading NO sub frequencies, the guy is full of ****, and it's indeed a bandpass 

Now, where's the beef (flare) It's a HORN MOTOR.


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## ghart999 (Feb 8, 2006)

Damn. I opened a can of worms with this thread. So chad, do you really think this design will have no advantage over a properly designed standard vented enclosure? Should I not bother having this built?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ghart999 said:


> Damn. I opened a can of worms with this thread. So chad, do you really think this design will have no advantage over a properly designed standard vented enclosure? Should I not bother having this built?


Build them both, tell us the difference! IT'S DIY!


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## DaleCarter (Jan 3, 2008)

I have been through LOTS of designs in my pro sound days and listened to all kinds of "sofitikated" pass band, folded horn, megalithic super output magic.

i have never heard anything that beats quality drivers in a sealed cab with ****loads of clean properly processed power. Sometimes vented works too.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

DaleCarter said:


> I have been through LOTS of designs in my pro sound days and listened to all kinds of "sofitikated" pass band, folded horn, megalithic super output magic.
> 
> i have never heard anything that beats quality drivers in a sealed cab with ****loads of clean properly processed power. Sometimes vented works too.


Woah, please explain......


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

chad said:


> And I think we also decided that that small ass mouth ain't loading NO sub frequencies, the guy is full of ****, and it's indeed a bandpass
> 
> Now, where's the beef (flare) It's a HORN MOTOR.


your thoughts not mine.

i like everything ive ever tried of his.

A LOT.

and ive tried many.


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## ghart999 (Feb 8, 2006)

chad said:


> Build them both, tell us the difference! IT'S DIY!


Got a suggestion for a vented box?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ghart999 said:


> Got a suggestion for a vented box?


Been thru that today already once, wHEW!

Nope, not now, Whatever goes the lowest and flattest, are the specs easy to find? Link?


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## ghart999 (Feb 8, 2006)

http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp12_subwoofer_information.html

Mine are the 4 ohm versions.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

ghart999 said:


> Got a suggestion for a vented box?


depending on the 'horn design skills' of the guy that did your box, id go with the horn.if designed correctly id bet a horn will out perform a port all day every day.

for these reasons.

"A port resonates at a given frequency determined by the length and diameter of the port, while a horn resonates at a HI frequency and a LO frequency and EVERY frequency between the two. For this reason the woofer is dampened at every frequency between LO and HI. That's why it has such phenomenal accuracy, gain, and bandwidth."

i could build that box in 4 hours (materials $50).

anyone with moderate carpentry skills could.


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

ghart999 said:


> Yeah my big concern is being able to make this exact. 92.7 * seems so difficult.



Consider doing it this way:

Draw the angle on the bottom of the enclosure, and kerf (slit bend) that one complex angle. The rest are simple 90 and 45 degree angles so you get the one down and you're set.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

I cant speak on a horn design, but I can say I am a believer in Pete's boxes. I am getting a plan sent to me. I heard one of his boxes recently and can say it was night and day or the factory spec box before. If you want SPL or sound I think he can do it. All this boils down to who builds the box. A good plan and a bad box builder dont equal up to anything good. Every review of his folder horn and T line boxes are always good.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Chad,

After reading this thread I went back and did some reading in my bookmarks. Could a folded horn design incorporate into the box equation the cabin size? I reread a paper by Sheerin and it talks about the ability to decrease the size of the horn if you are doing 1/2 -1/8 space. I to have an enclosure design sent to me from Pete. As memory serves he is an acoustical engineer and can believe that he would incorporate that (if what I read was correct) in his designs. And by the way to all, Pete is a hell of a nice guy. He can get a little deep sometimes so take notes and look stuff up!!


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## Dangerranger (Apr 12, 2006)

cubdenno said:


> Chad,
> 
> After reading this thread I went back and did some reading in my bookmarks. Could a folded horn design incorporate into the box equation the cabin size? I reread a paper by Sheerin and it talks about the ability to decrease the size of the horn if you are doing 1/2 -1/8 space. I to have an enclosure design sent to me from Pete. As memory serves he is an acoustical engineer and can believe that he would incorporate that (if what I read was correct) in his designs. And by the way to all, Pete is a hell of a nice guy. He can get a little deep sometimes so take notes and look stuff up!!



Yep, every design he comes up with he takes the environment into account. Shame I didn't get a box built by him when he was still here in Georgia 

He does a lot of application specific folded horns and he also does a lot of chambered transmission line hybrids, and intricate bandpass designs. All dependant on what you want out of it


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

cubdenno said:


> Chad,
> 
> After reading this thread I went back and did some reading in my bookmarks. Could a folded horn design incorporate into the box equation the cabin size? I reread a paper by Sheerin and it talks about the ability to decrease the size of the horn if you are doing 1/2 -1/8 space. I to have an enclosure design sent to me from Pete. As memory serves he is an acoustical engineer and can believe that he would incorporate that (if what I read was correct) in his designs. And by the way to all, Pete is a hell of a nice guy. He can get a little deep sometimes so take notes and look stuff up!!


Of course, BUT not THAT small, for example to be an adequate subwoofer the one I posted wold need to be used in an array of 16! that one may get to 40 in a car  It's 5' tall and 22" wide (mouth dimensions  ) That's what counts!

Guys, It's a scoop enclosure with a VERY small mouth, sure it will act like a horn, but not in sub-bass frequencies  

He's not inventing anything new, they used to be VERY popular, but people still disliked the scoop's sound. Which is fine in thios app, because it's not a scoop at sub-bass frequencies  Its's a well designed aero-port


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## ghart999 (Feb 8, 2006)

Chad - what the hell is your new avatar?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

ghart999 said:


> Chad - what the hell is your new avatar?


A drunk Ohioan who pissed on a porch !


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## ghart999 (Feb 8, 2006)

a$$hole said:


> A drunk Ohioan who pissed on a porch !


Chad's girl?


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## DaleCarter (Jan 3, 2008)

Mainly trying to tweak a guru or two with their revolutionary 12th order BP folder horn designs.

Just playing.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

chad said:


> Of course, BUT not THAT small, for example to be an adequate subwoofer the one I posted wold need to be used in an array of 16! that one may get to 40 in a car  It's 5' tall and 22" wide (mouth dimensions  ) That's what counts!
> 
> Guys, It's a scoop enclosure with a VERY small mouth, sure it will act like a horn, but not in sub-bass frequencies
> 
> He's not inventing anything new, they used to be VERY popular, but people still disliked the scoop's sound. Which is fine in thios app, because it's not a scoop at sub-bass frequencies  Its's a well designed aero-port


This is quoted from one of my source readings:

So how do you know what mouth size to use? It depends on the conditions your horn will be working in. If your horn is designed to hang 1000 feet above a cornfield, then it will effectively be radiating into full space. Leach's model assumes that the mouth of the horn will be infinite in this case. Of course you cannot build a horn with an infinitely large mouth, but a mouth that has a circumference equal to the wavelength of the lowest frequency to be reproduced has been agreed on as being close enough to infinite. If you put the horn on the ground, then it will be radiating into half space. The ground provides an acoustic boundary. In this case, a mouth with half the area of the full space mouth will be close enough to an infinite mouth. The area can again be cut in half for a horn placed on the ground and against a wall. If the mouth is placed at the junction of two walls and a floor, then the mouth area can be 1/8 the size of the full space mouth and still be considered large enough. However, many people make the mouths of their horns smaller than this so that they can be stuffed into aesthetically pleasing boxes. In this case, the efficiency of the low frequency end of the horn's bandwidth will typically decrease, and the response will have dips and peaks. This is the case most of the time, but not always.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

I am not trying to start anything. Just trying to get a better feel for what constitutes a horn. I have seen many definitions. And just as many interpretations of these same definitions. I guess what I am saying is I am just trying to learn.


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## shuss (Oct 14, 2008)

looks pretty neat. Good luck!


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## exmaxima1 (May 31, 2007)

chad said:


> He's not inventing anything new, they used to be VERY popular, but people still disliked the scoop's sound. Which is fine in thios app, because it's not a scoop at sub-bass frequencies  Its's a well designed aero-port


It's a bass-reflex box with a tapered vent, nothing more. Cerwin-Vega had them in all their home speakers during the late 60's/early 70's.

The large throat area should reduce noise.

Good Luck!


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

tcguy85 said:


> that kind of a box i'd have to let a pro make for me. i wouldn't mess with that.


That is not a very difficult enclosure ...a sheet of MDF and an afternoon.

>^..^<


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## ButchB (Oct 15, 2008)

nice


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