# Talk to me about your Silver Flute 6.5's



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I installed a pair of the 4 ohm variety in my 2014 Focus ST, driving off an Arc KS900.6 and processed with an MS-8.

I am underwhelmed! 

Clearly they are better than stock, and clearly they are cheaper than $300/ea units, etc., but upon installing them I feel like I either can't feel them or in some instances, they localize themselves by going beyond their abilities. Also their upper midrange is weak or missing, or grainy.

I deadened and sealed the doors pretty well, using Knu Kolossus which has been fantastic to work with, and I added some foam and some jute-like radiant barrier as well which is nice too. The doors don't make much noise and that's promising, but these darn Flutes just flop around instead of performing.

Thoughts:

I was forced to use the factory wiring for the doors due to a very complex and annoying Molex. Could smallish, longish wiring cause massive issues? I can try to find a solution by adding a waterproof grommet on the car side and drill into the factory rubber boot, if this is necessary but I was trying to avoid it initially.

I'm using the MS-8 and I'm still experimenting with cross points (woofer is sitting at 70hz now, may be too low!) and calibrations. I also am underwhelmed by the tweeters I have now (Bravox silkies, currently crossed at 3100Hz @ 4th order) so I ordered up some NVX units (XSPTW29) and when they come in, I was hoping to install and then recal a much lower point. It seems the Flutes are losing it in the upper midrange and I'm going to guess that's because the factory door location is causing beaming at those frequencies, so I'm losing some frequency response at my ear level there. Can't cure that easily so I'm going to go with a lower crossing tweeter to try and solve it.

But as it goes, I'm prepared to install a much better woofer in the door if I need to, so I can get my desired performance. 

Here's maybe a helpful pic, sorry it is on my phone so quality isn't great:

















Shot of the door, and the way it looks (for ideas)












So as usual, totally open to any all criticism, as well as advice on equipment, if the Flutes just aren't right for me.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

funny...i ran the flutes with that exact tweeter for a while...the NVX. The tweeter is very good, and it will let you lower the XO point between the speaker s to about 2k and that will help you with the flute. Its not a great speaker, and i would suggest looking at the 6 1/2" sb accoustic that is not much more money.

But if you keep it you will need to tame the upper midrange....that is where you are hearing the grain i believe. And yes also raise the XO at the bottom to about 80 or 85...it will clean it up some.

sounds like you are on the right track.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> funny...i ran the flutes with that exact tweeter for a while...the NVX. The tweeter is very good, and it will let you lower the XO point between the speaker s to about 2k and that will help you with the flute. Its not a great speaker, and i would suggest looking at the 6 1/2" sb accoustic that is not much more money.
> 
> But if you keep it you will need to tame the upper midrange....that is where you are hearing the grain i believe. And yes also raise the XO at the bottom to about 80 or 85...it will clean it up some.
> 
> sounds like you are on the right track.


I have the matching NVX (SB Acoustics) mids in my cart at Sonic, just waiting for a coupon or some other excuse to pull the trigger. I'll get those NVX tweets in first and try some things, but I have this feeling the SB Acoustics drivers will be much better for me. I like things warm and cozy but I also like accuracy, and I seem to be missing that with these.

Also will work on the cross point, as that seems to be a big deal on these Flutes.

Other opinions are definitely welcome! I was even eying the DDL stuff from Alpine, could find a way to ship it over if I had to. Basically whatever it takes to be happy, lol.


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## Brian_smith06 (Jan 31, 2008)

Anything over 2500 and mine sounded like crap and a lot of what your describing. Might be your issue? I had mine play 80-2500 and imo sounded better than the id xs mids they replaced.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Brian_smith06 said:


> Anything over 2500 and mine sounded like crap and a lot of what your describing. Might be your issue? I had mine play 80-2500 and imo sounded better than the id xs mids they replaced.


Yeah, and I think it has a lot to do with beaming as a 6.5" stuck in a door is just not going to get a response to your ears very well from approximately 2000-2200k or so and up. You know its these same issues that led me to do a full-out 3-way setup on my Flex, which really turned out amazing sounding and I wish I could just transplant the exact setup from the Flex to the ST...but the ST's pillars are really weird. Unlike most cars I've touched, the pillar requires flexibility to install and remove. Physically, the pillar has to bend in two places, to get in and out. Therefore, building up a nice pillar pod from the factory part is impossible, because it would never bend once it was built-up with fiberglass and such. It SUCKS! 

The NVX tweeter will be going flush in to the pillar, and represents the maximum depth I'm able to go with this setup...in fact I actually pray it works at all and doesn't get caught on something behind the plastic, lol.


Just talking about this POS situation in this thread woke me up to a possible solution (removable panel that screws into the pillar after installing, after it flexes into position to fit), but I'll just hold on this idea until I see what the NVX tweeter does for me. Eh.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

What's the take on the speaker wire issue, BTW? I realize I'll get some power compression (basically voltage drop) by using smaller, longer wire runs than ideal, but in the real world is this a problem for this driver? 

Clearly I would never do this for a sub, and in previous installs I would just run some nice monoprice multi-conductor through the door rubbers, but this time I got c-blocked by a really nasty Molex.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I was reading up and found this in a review from the site http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2081515-post96.html


"On processed/electronic music and pop/hip-hop it still sounds great but doesn't knock me over the way some systems can. Mostly that's because I've turned down the bass to blend well (it's still solid down to 40Hz and decent down to 30.) When I turn it up, (the bass, that is) I get some of the "hit" back but the definition diminishes and I get a little plodding muddiness - fun for a while, and great on the low synth tones, but drums and bass guitar sound a little slow and out of focus. So I turn it down and enjoy."

And THAT is what I'm hearing. That ploddy muddy midbass. I listen 90% to EDM stuff, love my electronica music and my Flex system which Dayton RS is just the balls on this type of music, to the point of hairs standing on the back of the neck at times, when just the right sounds come in.

...I'm going to need new drivers I think.


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

FWIW I was never blown away by the Silver Flutes.

My install at the time wasn't fantastic though. 

Seas Nextel came after them and I was very happy. Totally different snack bracket however.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Yeah I think those NVX SB's will probably be the golden ticket I'm looking for.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

I think the NVX SB are based on the SB17NRX. There's a newer version SB17MFC on Madisound for not much more. Might want to take a look at those. I believe they have a Poly cone as opposed to the coated paper in the NRX. Either one should be a good choice. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

I don't have any issues with mine. OTOH, I cut them off around 80~100Hz (I keep going back and forth) at 12dB/oct, with a further 12dB/oct highpass @ 40Hz. Seas 1" tweeters handle the high range. 

I don't think these drivers were really made for infinite baffle mounting, so maybe what you're hearing is the suspension not doing a great job at controlling the driver's excursion at it approaches or exceeds Xmax.


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## emilime75 (Jan 27, 2011)

I doubt your stock wiring is a problem but, I am wondering about you door sealing method? Are there a rigid panels over the larger openings in the door? It looks like you may have just stretched some deadener or plastic over them. The idea is to cover up the holes with something rigid like plexiglass or HDPE(cutting boards) and then lay deadener over that, primarily to seal air gaps and further reduce resonances.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Brian Steele said:


> I don't have any issues with mine. OTOH, I cut them off around 80~100Hz (I keep going back and forth) at 12dB/oct, with a further 12dB/oct highpass @ 40Hz. Seas 1" tweeters handle the high range.
> 
> I don't think these drivers were really made for infinite baffle mounting, so maybe what you're hearing is the suspension not doing a great job at controlling the driver's excursion at it approaches or exceeds Xmax.


Hmm, I'm crossed WAY lower than that, which is probably my problem. On the issue of the Qts being low, you're right it is! By what I was reading up on though, I heard that if you're around 2x more than Fs at your cross point, then Qts isn't really important. Man... I wish I remember what thread that was discussed. Fs is 37.5 for these so that would be a cross point at 75hz, which is around abouts where I'm at. I think I'll retune at 75-80hz @ 24dB/oct, when the NVX tweets get in, and put those at something like 1900hz-2000 @ 24dB/oct. Its worth a try before buying more equipment.


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

Wattage, they love more wattage. I've been running mine for over 2 yrs now and still love them to this day. I was running a pair at 160wrms @ 4 ohms in a .15 cf sealed pod crossed over from50Hz to 4K Hz both ends at 12dB/Oct. they play loud, low and very cleanly. i will say though that even though they will play up to 5K+ Hz, it is a bit rough. I can't wait until I get my Sundown 2.75" FR drivers installed. The I'll play them up to ~350Hz

I think a lot of it has to do with your setup and power. Try a small sealed enclosure for them, you won't be sorry.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

emilime75 said:


> I doubt your stock wiring is a problem but, I am wondering about you door sealing method? Are there a rigid panels over the larger openings in the door? It looks like you may have just stretched some deadener or plastic over them. The idea is to cover up the holes with something rigid like plexiglass or HDPE(cutting boards) and then lay deadener over that, primarily to seal air gaps and further reduce resonances.


The sealing method I used is just an old-school way to handle deadening when the door panel juts into the door itself. I can't use rigid panels for that reason. But everything is very stiff as far as deadening and sealing. I definitely know where you're coming from though. That Knu Kolossus stuff is GREAT, very stiff. The plastic is just the factory junk, I could have discarded it too but I just figured it would be good for the moisture blocking properties just in case.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

smgreen20 said:


> Wattage, they love more wattage. I've been running mine for over 2 yrs now and still love them to this day. I was running a pair at 160wrms @ 4 ohms in a .15 cf sealed pod crossed over from50Hz to 4K Hz both ends at 12dB/Oct. they play loud, low and very cleanly. i will say though that even though they will play up to 5K+ Hz, it is a bit rough. I can't wait until I get my Sundown 2.75" FR drivers installed. The I'll play them up to ~350Hz
> 
> I think a lot of it has to do with your setup and power. Try a small sealed enclosure for them, you won't be sorry.


I'm forced to use them in the door, which means infinite baffle in this case. I modeled them in WinISD and sure enough, yes they look quite nice in a tiny sealed box or of course a ported enclosure as well. 

I can give them more power by bridging the Ks900.6 and just use the MS-8 internal power on the tweeters, but I figure unless I can mount these in a small sealed enclosure I'm wasting my time.


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

fourthmeal said:


> Hmm, I'm crossed WAY lower than that, which is probably my problem. On the issue of the Qts being low, you're right it is! By what I was reading up on though, I heard that if you're around 2x more than Fs at your cross point, then Qts isn't really important. Man... I wish I remember what thread that was discussed. Fs is 37.5 for these so that would be a cross point at 75hz, which is around abouts where I'm at. I think I'll retune at 75-80hz @ 24dB/oct, when the NVX tweets get in, and put those at something like 1900hz-2000 @ 24dB/oct. Its worth a try before buying more equipment.


I don't think it's a Qts issue, though perhaps the low Qts of this driver could make it sound a bit "lean" when mounted in a large enclosure. The response starts to drop off around where the cabin gain starts up, so that tends to boost the low bass a bit anyway. I guess compared to a high-Q driver, the boost is a bit lower, but EQ should be able to fix that. As the problem you mentioned manifests itself when you turn the volume up, I think it may have something more to do with the driver's suspension not really being designed for infinite-baffle use at low frequencies. 

FWIW, I experimented with my system this afternoon, and it looks like I can go down to 63 [email protected]/octave with them if I stay at "decent" levels, but the doors start complaining when I turn it up to "weekend" levels, LOL. 

IMO, your car's acoustics are likely to create a sharp dip in the bass response from your subs around 70~100 Hz (if you don't see that dip you are a lucky man!), if your subs are mounted to the rear (like they usually are in most car audio builds). See if you can measure where this happens, then use that as a starting point for your tuning - to get the best results, it might be best to keep the filter for the front drivers at or below that frequency. And if you're going below 80 Hz, consider using a higher-order (18 or 24dB/octave) high pass filter on them.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Brian, yeah there's a bit of a dip in the 70-100hz range, and a massive boost due to the hatchback shape and volume (I'm guessing) right under that, in the upper 40's, lower 50's.

And yeah, at higher volume levels they just start flopping around like a wet fish. Not friendly to my EDM choices.

I keep eyeing the DDL drivers from Alpine of Japan, or maybe even Stereo Integrity's amazing new 6.5's... a bit expensive for either of those, but its possible they are better for the job I'm after. For reference, I'm really after RS225 levels of greatness if I could get it, but that's just because my Flex has those and they are SICK.

I got to thinking, I wonder if the MS-8 has artificially boosted these in some way, and they are over-reaching /clipping or possibly running out of X-max, due to a measurement issue. I'll retrace my steps and see.

Oh and interestingly, the SB Acoustics driver actually measures out very close to the Silver Flute when put in a box about 10x ideal (to simulate IB)



Brian Steele said:


> I don't think it's a Qts issue, though perhaps the low Qts of this driver could make it sound a bit "lean" when mounted in a large enclosure. The response starts to drop off around where the cabin gain starts up, so that tends to boost the low bass a bit anyway. I guess compared to a high-Q driver, the boost is a bit lower, but EQ should be able to fix that. As the problem you mentioned manifests itself when you turn the volume up, I think it may have something more to do with the driver's suspension not really being designed for infinite-baffle use at low frequencies.
> 
> FWIW, I experimented with my system this afternoon, and it looks like I can go down to 63 [email protected]/octave with them if I stay at "decent" levels, but the doors start complaining when I turn it up to "weekend" levels, LOL.
> 
> IMO, your car's acoustics are likely to create a sharp dip in the bass response from your subs around 70~100 Hz (if you don't see that dip you are a lucky man!), if your subs are mounted to the rear (like they usually are in most car audio builds). See if you can measure where this happens, then use that as a starting point for your tuning - to get the best results, it might be best to keep the filter for the front drivers at or below that frequency. And if you're going below 80 Hz, consider using a higher-order (18 or 24dB/octave) high pass filter on them.


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

Yeah, a friend of mine was running the 5 1/4" flutes IB and they didn't care for it.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Well I dropped in those NVX tweets (awesome, btw, except for how they mount which is pita...but they sound amazing), got the MS-8 re-calibrated to a nice low 1900hz @ 24dB/oct point, and I'm... underwhelmed still. I'm still working on the midbass section, fooling with various tricks the MS-8 pulls and how to compensate..but just raw unprocessed signal I can tell the Flutes are just not right. Maybe they'd be good for different types of music like soft orchestra or something, but I love EDM and I love that accurate, clear sound from a well-produced, well-recorded electronic track. Example, I was playing with several tunes from my Dubstep and "Complextro" genres, and these damn Flutes just sounded "off". I went to my Flex for a direct comparison, and to my Sennheiser earphones for another, and I just can't wrap my head around what is happening with the flutes. Maybe its the "paper" sound just magnified. 

I think the NVX mids are in my immediate future. I'll place an order asap.


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## bugsplat (Nov 7, 2014)

I've played around a lot with my 6.5 SF's. I'm running mine IB in door pods. I found below 80hz it gets floppy and there is a good amount of mechanical noise. 90hz/24db was a nice point for my car. I'm pushing them all the way up to 2000hz. Anything beyond sound muddy. 

I'm still on the fence about them. I'm pleased with the sound but concerned with the materials. Took my car out for the first time while raining. Opened the door to get out and some drops landed on the cone and just absorbed right in before I could wipe it. If it holds moisture like that it could be a problem during humid months. I'm going to run them for now but I'll most likely pick up some of those SB's and move the SF's into the house and make some home audio bookshelfs.


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## 1996blackmax (Aug 29, 2007)

I know you discussed the openings on your door as far as not being able to put something solid across them. It didn't appear so from the pictures....do you have deadening going across the openings? I know it's not the best way to go about it, but it's definitively better than just having an opening.

As for the moisture, I too was worried about this for my speakers. I ended up leaving the factory mounts in place as they cover & protect the rear of the speaker very well from the elements. I did modify & add a lot of the Kolossus deadener to them. Would be nice if we could apply some sort of protectant on the cones. Kind of like the protectant for shoes.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Spray them with hair spray or some water repellent spray like used for camping/out door stuff.


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## bugsplat (Nov 7, 2014)

I bought some of that Never-wet stuff for some of my shooting gear and I'll never use it again. For one it stained all my **** a haze blue, two, it gave everything a sticky feeling.

Might have to try some hairspray.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Good information. Maybe the wool paper cones absorb less water than plain paper.


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## smgreen20 (Oct 13, 2006)

I live in a place where humidity is in abundance and in over 3 years my SF's have not suffered a thing in any way. Even got then wet from the rain multiple times and all is good. Seal those puppies and yee shall be rewarded.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Good to hear good things about them  so far only bad things have been said about these on this thread, I thought these play good above 4000 Hz but I agree that anything above 3000 Hz for a 6 1/2" driver is pushing it, and not many inexpensive drivers can play well under 80 Hz.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

bugsplat said:


> I've played around a lot with my 6.5 SF's. I'm running mine IB in door pods. I found below 80hz it gets floppy and there is a good amount of mechanical noise. 90hz/24db was a nice point for my car. I'm pushing them all the way up to 2000hz. Anything beyond sound muddy.
> 
> I'm still on the fence about them. I'm pleased with the sound but concerned with the materials. Took my car out for the first time while raining. Opened the door to get out and some drops landed on the cone and just absorbed right in before I could wipe it. If it holds moisture like that it could be a problem during humid months. I'm going to run them for now but I'll most likely pick up some of those SB's and move the SF's into the house and make some home audio bookshelfs.


I'm going to test these cross points but I really wanted to go lower on these mids. 

You know what would be pretty cool to try? Some 4ohm Mpyres or other Xbl units with neo magnets. Like Exodus mids. Too bad those are prevalent.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

Raise that crossover to 100hz. They cant play 70hz in a door. They would need to be ported to hit that.

I think they sound great 100-2000 as i have them setup. Just gotta know what they can and cant do.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Sadface. I really enjoy low-playing midbass units. I like that front "kick" that keeps my kind of music alive.

They are doing OK cross at about 80hz @ 12dB/oct right now, but still very lackluster in performance compared with what I'm used to.

Tonally, they are starting to clear up. I'm not sure why. Either that or I'm getting used to them. This setup is still nowhere near as clear as my Flex but it is nice in its own right.


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## bugsplat (Nov 7, 2014)

fourthmeal said:


> I'm going to test these cross points but I really wanted to go lower on these mids.
> 
> You know what would be pretty cool to try? Some 4ohm Mpyres or other Xbl units with neo magnets. Like Exodus mids. Too bad those are prevalent.





DonutHands said:


> Raise that crossover to 100hz. They cant play 70hz in a door. They would need to be ported to hit that.
> 
> I think they sound great 100-2000 as i have them setup. Just gotta know what they can and cant do.


Like Donut said they really need a tuned ported box to get down low. My first design on the door pods were to make them sealed and take them down to 60hz. What I didn't count on was how big the magnet would be. I would have had to cut into my door frame which I wasn't willing to do. I had to cut out some of the rear in my fiberglass pods making it a IB design and just set the crossover higher.

For kicks before my install I put the SF's in a small .125 sealed MDF box and ran a sweep down to 20hz. It played well down to about 50-45hz then ran out of steam. I think if you have the room to make it sealed or even ported they would sound awesome.


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Have you tried a different 6.5 yet?

I've spent some time tuning since my comment about the plodding midbass. It now meaures well, and on some music (jazz, country) sounds fantastic. But on fast, punchy stuff (rock, electronic) I still sense an overall slowness or thickness that takes away from the midbass snap. I wanted to blame it on my processor, or my sub, but I'm afraid it may be inherent to the SF's mounted IB low in a door. If you try the SB or another 6.5 and get different results, please do tell.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

tjswarbrick said:


> Have you tried a different 6.5 yet?
> 
> I've spent some time tuning since my comment about the plodding midbass. It now meaures well, and on some music (jazz, country) sounds fantastic. But on fast, punchy stuff (rock, electronic) I still sense an overall slowness or thickness that takes away from the midbass snap. I wanted to blame it on my processor, or my sub, but I'm afraid it may be inherent to the SF's mounted IB low in a door. If you try the SB or another 6.5 and get different results, please do tell.


Nah, I've just been sticking with them and using EQ to try and make them pretty good. And...that's where we're at. I got that sweet spot between "plodding" and "thin", by upping the cross point, and tweaking EQ on the MS-8.

I'm not super-duper happy, but I'm reasonably happy. I still will probably try a new mid at some point though. Just going with simple winisd measurements though, the SB / NVX mid has a really similar plot. The more I play around with ideas, the more I want to try something sorta exotic.


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Cool. That's where I'm at too. I'm getting a set of the TM65s but I don't have em slated for this build.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Well in a bit of an impromptu moment, I snagged a set of Audio Development W600 mids to try in place of these Flutes. The Qts is much higher, at .65 Qtc so I'm hoping they hold their own in an IB door situation much better. Also very well reviewed for their timbre/voice and accuracy so hopefully it will be a big move up.

Will update as I discover what I do!


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