# Tube Ampilifiers Don't Ship Well?



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

Guys want to share a Mishap I had today.

I ordered a bulter 575 last month and it just arrived today.Understanding the fact that butler is high priced yet this is the only company with a 5channel tube amp for car theater.I bought this amplifier Brand NEw with the price listed on website.(not including Shipping)shipping i paid seperate.I am an experienced installer decided to direct install this amp.When i installed the amp only 3channels were working.I was shocked. After a detailed checking of all channels ,i noticed two tubes were dead.I called Bk directly.I requested him to guide me replace the tubes. But instead This "FOOL" wants me to send the amplifier back to him in the US to get it fixed.

1.HELLO DO YOU HOW MUCH THE SHIPPING COST from thailand to usa (1way)?
2.Do you have any idea How much govt tax they charge us here?
3.Are you expecting me to pay double shipping and double Import tax? 
4.Have you Gone MAd?


YES,This Human refused to pay the half shipping.He expects me to pay both ways.

Hey I paid for this bloody SO CALLED "brand new amp" including the shipping.Didnt you test the amp 1st befor shipping?Now am really upset.He gave me all this excuses that the amp has to be rebiased and that only he can fix it.Hey wise guy,if thats a fact then stop shipping your products to international clients.Sell it in your country. I am getting rid of this Token Tube Junk ,I'd rather use the shipping money to get REPUTED AMPLIFIER from a REPUTED COMPANY.

I am sorry guys but i am just furious

Beware International Buyers


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Refund time


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



a$$hole said:


> Refund time


refund ??they refused to pay half the shipping,you expect them to refund?I dont think so


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> refund ??they refused to pay half the shipping,you expect them to refund?I dont think so


good luck man,
i had bad luck with mine few years back..
ended up trading it for an Arc Audio XXK5150

You should find the Abyss amps looks like tru tech..
keep us posted..


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Any good guitar amplifier shops around you with techs ?

Send him the bill for having the repair done ! Contact the better business bureau .


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## CAMSHAFT (Apr 7, 2006)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Thats unsat. I say look elsewhere for another amp!


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Tough luck, man. Have you ever tried to claim damage from your courier? It could possibly be due to shipping. I emailed Butler years ago...he said that the tubes have a fail-safe operation...which means if the tubes are dead, the amp will still work.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



invecs said:


> Tough luck, man. Have you ever tried to claim damage from your courier? It could possibly be due to shipping. I emailed Butler years ago...he said that the tubes have a fail-safe operation...which means if the tubes are dead, the amp will still work.


So the tubes are not in the circuit ? They just light up to look pretty ?

Kinda like run flats [ except the tire won't keep going forever ]


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



a$$hole said:


> So the tubes are not in the circuit ? They just light up to look pretty ?
> 
> Kinda like run flats [ except the tire won't keep going forever ]


Here's part of the email I got:

A rumor spread by some ill-spirited and jealous PPI engineers perhaps. The amp has a fail safe circuit which will allow it to operate in solid state mode if the tubes fail. This adds to the confusion. Why would I risk 25 yrs reputation with pro musicians, etc and not have the tubes operational?? Makes no sense.

BK Butler


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## ~thematt~ (Sep 14, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

We've played with the new Blue amps, and actually removed the tubes whilst the unit was still operating. It still works, and almost no audible change (there was a bit, but none worse for wear).

We were careful though, and checked a whole heap of measurements first. Obviously you'd be suicidal to do it to a REAL tube amp, with the high voltages across the plates. Fortunately, the Butler _isnt_ a real tube amp, and the voltage across the plates is minimal (ie. replacing the tubes, if you really want to, doesnt require any sort of genius. We've rolled a few tubes through them before).

The Butlers IMO, whilst sounding good in the midrange/highs, is an overpriced, oversized, underpowered simpleton amplifier that tries to be more then it is.

A quote from Werewolf....


> The Tube Driver Blue is unique ... it uses tubes in a cathode-follower type configuration, with low voltage on the plates, in series with the base of the output power transistors. This allows the tubes to "see" an attenuated or reflected version of the actual load current, without the tubes needing to supply any power gain.


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## vjgli (Nov 4, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Bias? Bull ****. Those tubes are dead. No voltage on the grid. the fancy red glow (not to get mixed up with the other Christmas blue light) is the heater.
So, why they turn the heater on if no active voltage is going through? Have no idea. They use it like a passive bulb in a passive x-over.

Main reason you can bridge the tubes is there's an opamp (AD OP275) that allows it to be bridged. Meaning, the actual current gain is delivered by solid state transistor not tube.

Sounds like a sloppy final QC


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

I thank all of you for your support ,i guess i will go ahead and replace the tube and just sell this stupid BK's amp. 

The point, I bought a new amp (expensive)and 3 channels are dead..a friend of mine said he can replace the tube.

Feels like S..T due to the thought of repairing a new amp .it already ticked me,now the Fool says got to send it back to him.Man this guy is really insane.calculating the shipping cost and taxes will buy me a pc of 275 or 2150 perhaps.

As for the shipping,its marked fragile,so i dont think its due to shipping.itwas packed nice and secure.

BK SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## roger21087 (Aug 23, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

That really suck, hope you can get a refund


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> As for the shipping,its marked fragile,so i dont think its due to shipping.itwas packed nice and secure.


Having a package marked "fragile" only makes it easier to pick which boxes to handle roughly.

Shipping companies don't give a **** about fragile packages.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

This website will keep you occupied and entertained for _*HOURS*_:

www.unitedpackagesmashers.com


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



GlasSman said:


> This website will keep you occupied and entertained for _*HOURS*_:
> 
> www.unitedpackagesmashers.com


well if it was due to the shipping, i guess Butler has an even serious issue here.
considering the fact that his amps are vulnerable,i guess he should be bright in explaining his cutomers with a way out.instead he tells me to ship it back to him.

Ok now ....i ship to him for repair ( i pay shipping ) he repairs and ships back to me (i pay shipping again + import tax). 

what if tubes fail again due to shipping? RISKY aint it?

Man if this goes on back and forth, i could get myself a plane ticket to the US and Hand carry myself a milbert amp.


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



roger21087 said:


> That really suck, hope you can get a refund


i hope so to buddy


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

[The Butlers IMO, whilst sounding good in the midrange/highs, is an overpriced, oversized, underpowered simpleton amplifier that tries to be more then it is.




LET me add vulnerable


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Mailed Me and asked why posted on public forum?

FIGURE IT OUT BUTTHEAD!!!!!!!!!


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## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

very sorry to hear ,you can just replace the tube easily,butler amp tube is acting as a diode,is just a marketing strategy I think,I have a good technician in taiwan and he told me the bulter amp is not real true amp.cos its use opamp.just replace the tube ,do you have a solder pot?


I agree butler is over priced,but many people already know that.It is just a normal solid state amp with tubes acting as diode.Correct me if I am wrong.comments appreciated.Thank you

Christmas TREE oh Christmas tree


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

It is not the seller's responsibility to cover shipping to a waranty center, it is indeed their responsibility to make sure it gets back to you.

Look at it fromt he other side of the coin.


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## Lance (Jan 27, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> It is not the seller's responsibility to cover shipping to a waranty center, it is indeed their responsibility to make sure it gets back to you.
> 
> Look at it fromt he other side of the coin.


While you are correct, Its much harder to accept when the amp doesn't work straight out of the box!


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## Mlstrass (Apr 22, 2006)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> It is not the seller's responsibility to cover shipping to a waranty center, it is indeed their responsibility to make sure it gets back to you.
> 
> Look at it fromt he other side of the coin.


The amp was received DOA, so YES it should be the seller's responsibility. Apparently he doesn't stand behind his products, so I'd say his CS skills are a zero...


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Well, as an international buyer, I won't expect to send back the thing from where I bought. I will ensure I got a place to repair it locally.


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## vjgli (Nov 4, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



GlasSman said:


> This website will keep you occupied and entertained for _*HOURS*_:
> 
> www.unitedpackagesmashers.com


I seriously doubt amplifier was damaged during shipping. The tubes are soldered on a vertical pc board and the tubes are glued on as well.

The tubes are working passively. so, if the tubes look physically intact, I would think something else is wrong with the amplifier.


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> It is not the seller's responsibility to cover shipping to a waranty center, it is indeed their responsibility to make sure it gets back to you.
> 
> Look at it fromt he other side of the coin.


thats not the point ,if he had just told me how to fix it ,i wouldnt post it on a public forum.

1.Shipping charges from usa to thailand =>$134.5+import tax 20% value of product

2.resend from thailand to usa $134.5

3.after repair usa to thailand $134.5+import tax 20% value of product


Do the math and this is a brand new product.How should i not get mad?if its not the seller problem he will lose customers this way.wheres the courtesy????? hello????I gave him business and its his duty to help clean up the mess.

Think about it


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

if you paid with a credit card or paypal you can maybe stop the payment or refund?

and tell him to send you a pre paid shipping box so he can have his faulty amp back.


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



kyheng said:


> Well, as an international buyer, I won't expect to send back the thing from where I bought. I will ensure I got a place to repair it locally.


i agree thats why i called him up to tell me how to fix it ,but he said no one is able to fix it and that i should send it back...man u just bought a $1000 brand new amp and all you get is an almost dead pc of junk

mari kami bersama berpikir..


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



60ndown said:


> if you paid with a credit card or paypal you can maybe stop the payment or refund?
> 
> and tell him to send you a pre paid shipping box so he can have his faulty amp back.


tt transfer bro


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> i agree thats why i called him up to tell me how to fix it ,but he said no one is able to fix it and that i should send it back...man u just bought a $1000 brand new amp and all you get is an almost dead pc of junk
> 
> mari kami bersama berpikir..


So they don't have any service centers that don't require the shipping?

I'm not privy to import taxes but why the tax on a REAPIR? 

What tubes are in it?

Chad


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

well if its not the butlers problem and its due to shipping ,which international customer will buy?

1.His products are not shipping friendly.

2.he doesnt want to guide customers how to fix the amp.no after sales support

3.no courtesy.

4.he wants things his way.

come on this not a used amp from ebay.

a friend of mine once bought an amp from Brian exile audio USA.By mistake they shipped a display amp.not one but 2units.My friend emailed Brain,told him the condition of the amps.With no questions asked he refunded the funds and said that it was their mistake and my friend gets to keep the amps free of charge.and full amount was refunded including shipping.He didnt even ask my friend to ship back the amps to get it replaced with a new ones.Thats Courtesy.you may check with Brian.Now this is is the kind of man to do business with


Can anyone beat that?


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> So they don't have any service centers that don't require the shipping?
> 
> I'm not privy to import taxes but why the tax on a REAPIR?
> 
> ...


some guys from forum told me to just replace the tubes and it should work.but butler insists that it should be shipped back to him for repair other wise it wont work well or as it should, it has to be rebiased.

6sl7 tubes i think


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## SteveLPfreak (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Other than the durability/shipping issue of the amp(s), the worst thing I encountered with them was an idle current of almost 10A! And that was on the 2-channel models. That's crazy.

Sorry about your problems. I agree with you 100%. He should at least meet you halfway.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> Can anyone beat that?


When i worked in broadcast we built (rebuilt) a new plant that utilized Scott Studios PC automation. Much to their dismay (and ours) the mother boards they were using encountered a high failure rate, when they failed they would also nuke BOTH redundant power supplies. We went off the air about 3AM due to a failure, I called a pager number, a new machine was built and we were back on the air at 7AM after I went to the AIRPORT to pick up the new machine that they bought a plane ticket for 

There is still customer service out there, but unfortunately the best resides in facets of industry where big money can be lost.

Yamaha does the same thing for their mixing consoles, they have techs stationed all over with, I swear, a "pool pass" for an airplane, ready to jump at a moments notice.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> some guys from forum told me to just replace the tubes and it should work.but butler insists that it should be shipped back to him for repair other wise it wont work well or as it should, it has to be rebiased.
> 
> 6sl7 tubes i think


Is there ANYONE in your area good with tube amps, like maybe a proaudio/guitar repair shop with a tech that is "old skool?" Before shippng it I would make certain that there is heater voltage at the daughter board.

I have bounced 6SL7's all over hell and back, they are a pretty stout tube in terms of vibration resistance.

I'm VERY curious to see what they are Re-biasing, it's a preamp tube


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## Jopop (Jun 23, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Biasing is very simple. If you own a tube amp you owe it to yourself to learn it. Also, to experiment with tubes.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



Jopop said:


> Biasing is very simple. If you own a tube amp you owe it to yourself to learn it. Also, to experiment with tubes.


You should try to bias your preamp tubes sometime


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> Is there ANYONE in your area good with tube amps, like maybe a proaudio/guitar repair shop with a tech that is "old skool?" Before shippng it I would make certain that there is heater voltage at the daughter board.
> 
> I have bounced 6SL7's all over hell and back, they are a pretty stout tube in terms of vibration resistance.
> 
> I'm VERY curious to see what they are Re-biasing, it's a preamp tube


Chad, i just called my friend up (who is fixing the amp) and he said the that the 6sl7 tubes are good in terms of resistance.he himself is quite surprised.but now its a different story.he replaced the tubes but still no sound.he said theres no current going through so now he has to cek another area.(what ever that means)

I really appreciate yours assitance buddy


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

It would be cheaper to learn biasing than to buy matched tubes evrytime you swap. How do butlers allow baising? My old Fender has a newer modification on it that allows for self-biasing but it wasn't in the original specs


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

i really want to sincerely thank everyone for their comments and support.
maybe its just not my day and i have accepted it.this is an experience for me and a really expensive one.


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Sorry about your problems. I agree with you 100%. He should at least meet you halfway.[/QUOTE]

thanks bro,i think i will just let it go now


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

If they aren't lighting up then there is no heater voltage. Thing is that the heaters could be in series! I have seen this done as opposed to in parallel for when they don't want to knock the voltage down, it was popular in the old days to string a bunch up in series and run them off the 120VAC line, presto, no expense of a filament transformer. I could not find the amp on ampguts, is there like 3 tubes per daughter board?


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

looks like butlers reputation is worth only a 1000bucks


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> If they aren't lighting up then there is no heater voltage. Thing is that the heaters could be in series! I have seen this done as opposed to in parallel for when they don't want to knock the voltage down, it was popular in the old days to string a bunch up in series and run them off the 120VAC line, presto, no expense of a filament transformer. I could not find the amp on ampguts, is there like 3 tubes per daughter board?


Chad i have not opened the amp myself,i will get it toms and post some pics ,hopefully i can get an answer from my friend toms.i really appreciate your help and support on this .i honestly thank you


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> i agree thats why i called him up to tell me how to fix it ,but he said no one is able to fix it and that i should send it back...man u just bought a $1000 brand new amp and all you get is an almost dead pc of junk
> 
> mari kami bersama berpikir..


Yes, I know how you feel now...
Anyway did you tried to look for any shop that can repair the amp? If just the circuit problem it should be easy. Unless it is a blown tube.


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



kyheng said:


> Yes, I know how you feel now...
> Anyway did you tried to look for any shop that can repair the amp? If just the circuit problem it should be easy. Unless it is a blown tube.


my friend replaced the tubes and still dead ...Now we know that the tubes are not the problem and its something else...


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

If that's the case, I only can say sorry(the damage is more severe I guess). Anyway if you stay in Malaysia I can help you by sending the amp to my repairer(so far he never failed me)


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



kyheng said:


> If that's the case, I only can say sorry(the damage is more severe I guess). Anyway if you stay in Malaysia I can help you by sending the amp to my repairer(so far he never failed me)


i will see how it goes,let my friend give it a try.the main thing is I have learnt my lesson well and Butler is just digging his own grave.


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Well, buying across the ocean do have lots of risk, but then don't just let 1 buy let you down... And give them negetive review.


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

kyheng said:


> Well, buying across the ocean do have lots of risk, but then don't just let 1 buy let you down... And give them negetive review.


buddy again i think you are missing the point here

if the company starts with negative vibe then my respond would be negative.all i am saying if he had shown me support in the 1st place this would not happen.

there are other companies out there with good reputation but not butler for sure... I have bought goods from celestra, audio system but never have i encountered a problem like this


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> Hey Bud, i have owned a Butler in the past and recently got a Hustler too. You wont believe this but after a thorough AB comparison test i discovered that there are only slight differences in over all performance between the two and Butler being sold for double the price. On further investigation i noted that the components used in Hustler are just as reliable or should i say audiophile grade.Who ever made Hustler did a fantastic job of producing something the likes for Butler and is available for just more or less $300. Love the price war, highly beneficial to us music lovers who dont have to dig too deep in our pockets. Hustler Rocks! (No offense to Butler.)


Dude, you aren't, by any chance, just up on the butler nutz are you? Here you have a post saying hustler is the best "no offense to butler" and a month later you are complaining of the butler you bought?!?! Seems to me if the Husteler that you A/B'd to be just as good but at $300...then you bought the Butler....so what's the scoop? Are you leading up to selling us some Hustler's since you will have done such a great job pouncing butlers that we will be in need of hustlers? I must say that there isn't a huge tube market on this forum so I'm dubious of my diagnosis. IOW, I'm not outright calling BS on you but this is a little odd, isn't it? 

If I came on and proved that Dual is going to do just as good a job as Sinfoni and that Dual was the ****, then complained how bad Sinfoni was having bought one since proving how crappy they are, someone would (I promise) be kind enough to suggest BS.

Just curious.


friction said:


> buddy again i think you are missing the point here
> 
> if the company starts with negative vibe then my respond would be negative.all i am saying if he had shown me support in the 1st place this would not happen.
> 
> there are other companies out there with good reputation but not butler for sure... I have bought goods from celestra, audio system but never have i encountered a problem like this


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## vjgli (Nov 4, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> It would be cheaper to learn biasing than to buy matched tubes evrytime you swap. How do butlers allow baising? My old Fender has a newer modification on it that allows for self-biasing but it wasn't in the original specs


I do not believe biasing is applied here. Your Fender is what we know as a traditional tube amp with hi voltage going across the grid.

Besides, how can anyone bias this amp if the tubes are dead (no voltage) to begin with?


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## vjgli (Nov 4, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Butler uses tubes only in a cathode follower configuration, where they only buffer the signal with unity gain (actually a bit LESS than gain=1). So the tube drivers don't use the tubes for voltage amplification ... only "buffering" to impart tube coloration. So it's pretty easy to "bypass" the tubes (even with passive devices) if they are cold, broken or missing.


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



vjgli said:


> Butler uses tubes only in a cathode follower configuration, where they only buffer the signal with unity gain (actually a bit LESS than gain=1). So the tube drivers don't use the tubes for voltage amplification ... only "buffering" to impart tube coloration. So it's pretty easy to "bypass" the tubes (even with passive devices) if they are cold, broken or missing.


Is it just me or does that make having tubes darn near pointless...I understand wanting the tube "sound" but...for that price...for it to be bypassable...bummer. Might as well just buy an external tube preamp...rca's in and out if such a thing exists.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



vjgli said:


> I do not believe biasing is applied here. Your Fender is what we know as a traditional tube amp with hi voltage going across the grid.
> 
> Besides, how can anyone bias this amp if the tubes are dead (no voltage) to begin with?


And nearly all PREAMP circuits are self biasing 



vjgli said:


> Butler uses tubes only in a cathode follower configuration, where they only buffer the signal with unity gain (actually a bit LESS than gain=1). So the tube drivers don't use the tubes for voltage amplification ... only "buffering" to impart tube coloration. So it's pretty easy to "bypass" the tubes (even with passive devices) if they are cold, broken or missing.



Which is very little coloration as this tube is pretty darn linear and is not being run that hard.



guitarsail said:


> Is it just me or does that make having tubes darn near pointless...I understand wanting the tube "sound" but...for that price...for it to be bypassable...bummer. Might as well just buy an external tube preamp...rca's in and out if such a thing exists.


See above


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## guitarsail (Oct 12, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> And nearly all PREAMP circuits are self biasing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah it just seems like a large price to pay...


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> thats not the point ,if he had just told me how to fix it ,i wouldnt post it on a public forum.
> 
> 1.Shipping charges from usa to thailand =>$134.5+import tax 20% value of product
> 
> ...


You have to pay _import_ taxes on something you're _exporting_? 
And why would you have to pay the import fees twice? You've already paid it. You should be able to have it marked for repair and not pay it the second time.


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> buddy again i think you are missing the point here
> 
> if the company starts with negative vibe then my respond would be negative.all i am saying if he had shown me support in the 1st place this would not happen.
> 
> there are other companies out there with good reputation but not butler for sure... I have bought goods from celestra, audio system but never have i encountered a problem like this


Well, I guess I might get you wrong(sorry).
Anyway, usually a company won't give you support on DIY just to protect their copyright and name.
For your problem, I guess it is more on QC..

If send back to US for repair and they forgot to state the item is repaired, it is possible to get it taxed once more.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



kyheng said:


> Well, I guess I might get you wrong(sorry).
> Anyway, usually a company won't give you support on DIY just to protect their copyright and name.
> For your problem, I guess it is more on QC..
> 
> If send back to US for repair and they forgot to state the item is repaired, it is possible to get it taxed once more.


Well in a fekin tube amp it's for liability too! 

Plate voltage


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> Dude, you aren't, by any chance, just up on the butler nutz are you? Here you have a post saying hustler is the best "no offense to butler" and a month later you are complaining of the butler you bought?!?! Seems to me if the Husteler that you A/B'd to be just as good but at $300...then you bought the Butler....so what's the scoop? Are you leading up to selling us some Hustler's since you will have done such a great job pouncing butlers that we will be in need of hustlers? I must say that there isn't a huge tube market on this forum so I'm dubious of my diagnosis. IOW, I'm not outright calling BS on you but this is a little odd, isn't it?
> 
> If I came on and proved that Dual is going to do just as good a job as Sinfoni and that Dual was the ****, then complained how bad Sinfoni was having bought one since proving how crappy they are, someone would (I promise) be kind enough to suggest BS.
> 
> Just curious.



Hey buddy like i have said before ,i am a hobbyist and an installer,read the thread ,i said knowing butler overpriced but its the only company with tube 5channel for car theather.I cant put 3 hustlers or any other amps right?
dont have space in the car


Before you make comments please read the full thread.already i have lost money.i have used hustler audiosn and etc amps.

i should have bought the audison car theater amp and suggest every one to buy.

As for the scoop you figure it out ok


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



quality_sound said:


> You have to pay _import_ taxes on something you're _exporting_?
> And why would you have to pay the import fees twice? You've already paid it. You should be able to have it marked for repair and not pay it the second time.


even if you say repair you still need to put a value and here the customs department are very strict.alot of paperwork and running here and there.you still have to pay the import tax on the value of the product.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> even if you say repair you still need to put a value and here the customs department are very strict.alot of paperwork and running here and there.you still have to pay the import tax on the value of the product.


That blows!


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



kyheng said:


> Well, I guess I might get you wrong(sorry).
> Anyway, usually a company won't give you support on DIY just to protect their copyright and name.
> For your problem, I guess it is more on QC..
> 
> If send back to US for repair and they forgot to state the item is repaired, it is possible to get it taxed once more.


lets see if you face the problem one day

you get a new amp for a 1000 bucks direct from the manufaturer and not a dealer,after you receive it,brand new, out of the box,its dead...Wow

the manufacturer tell you to send it back to him to fix it but refuse to pay half the shipping .He doesnt stand behind his own product and his company reputation.even small companies state if there is a problem they pay half shipping and repair is free.

Let me remind you this product i bought direct from BUtler not a dealer.if they dont stand behind their own product? who will?think about it.

Its easy for you to say cos you are not in my shoes


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> Dude, you aren't, by any chance, just up on the butler nutz are you? Here you have a post saying hustler is the best "no offense to butler" and a month later you are complaining of the butler you bought?!?! Seems to me if the Husteler that you A/B'd to be just as good but at $300...then you bought the Butler....so what's the scoop? Are you leading up to selling us some Hustler's since you will have done such a great job pouncing butlers that we will be in need of hustlers? I must say that there isn't a huge tube market on this forum so I'm dubious of my diagnosis. IOW, I'm not outright calling BS on you but this is a little odd, isn't it?
> 
> If I came on and proved that Dual is going to do just as good a job as Sinfoni and that Dual was the ****, then complained how bad Sinfoni was having bought one since proving how crappy they are, someone would (I promise) be kind enough to suggest BS.
> 
> Just curious.



Let me add some words Hustler only supply 2channel Tube amps.Now no more stock and hustler are discontinue the old version tube amps.new models coming out but solidstate only version.I guess they stop is to avoid this accident type situation.the solidstate four channel is very nice


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

For those people thinking i am making this up well, here are some pictures of the amplifier.The problem is in the Qc as said by my technician.he had to replace some transistors. So now whose responsible for it?Shipping I dont think so.If qc is not the responsiblity of the Company than who is 


I once again thank those who have supported me.


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> lets see if you face the problem one day
> 
> you get a new amp for a 1000 bucks direct from the manufaturer and not a dealer,after you receive it,brand new, out of the box,its dead...Wow
> 
> ...


First, I won't spend USD1000 to buy from overseas because of tax and warranty problem. Unless the thing that I going to buy is >600% cheaper compare to local.
Second, before I buy anything from overseas, I will do lots of research such as spare parts easy to get or not in case of any problem arise.
You are considered to be lucky as only transistors giving problem. If you really on the bad luck which its the circuit board got problem, you like it or not, you still have to send back to them for repair or change to new one.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

I remember the conversation I had with BK , I asked to him check the amps and mark fragile before shipping also I explained regarding shipping and import taxes. He said he spends 30mins with every amplifier before he checks them out. And has a special technique of packing them. Now, where are his words?

Anyways end of story. The amp's fixed and I am selling it off. This is a lesson for me not to trust Big Mouth companies and Hope Butler Audio will improve on his customer service and quality control.

@ butler *"Don't just boast regarding your talent and experience with professional musicians.I dont care.The point you sold me a faulty amplifier.Thats All!"*

Thank You and Case Closed !!

Anyone has recommendations on a good 5channel car theater amp? What do you think of audison? Or should I just go direct with a dual 4 channel amp?


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



vjgli said:


> I do not believe biasing is applied here. Your Fender is what we know as a traditional tube amp with hi voltage going across the grid.
> 
> Besides, how can anyone bias this amp if the tubes are dead (no voltage) to begin with?


OK. I believe the biasing statement came before we found out there was no plate voltage....otherwise it would be a valid point. Anyway, I never suggested that he needs to go out and bias some tubes that aren't doing anything. We were on the subject at the time but that subject has moved on. Keep up.




guitarsail said:


> Is it just me or does that make having tubes darn near pointless...I understand wanting the tube "sound" but...for that price...for it to be bypassable...bummer. Might as well just buy an external tube preamp...rca's in and out if such a thing exists.


It is very important to consider that any tube coloratipon added will need to be tuned out using the appropriate processor Otherwise you'd have coloration.




friction said:


> Hey buddy like i have said before ,i am a hobbyist and an installer,read the thread ,i said knowing butler overpriced but its the only company with tube 5channel for car theather.I cant put 3 hustlers or any other amps right?
> dont have space in the car
> 
> 
> ...


Gosh...touchy? Yeah I know what you said before but I also know what you said BEFORE before...so clarification is handy-dandy. Having previously dissed butler...then buying one...then complaining about it. I don't know. It's kind of the reason why I don't buy tubes. I know they are going to be problematic even though I really want them. If I get them I'm pretty sure it won't be worth it. I promise, however, if I buy tubes knowing full well they aren't worth it, I will not complain. I promise. I'm not going to grow weeds in my backyard just for the chance to pull them.



friction said:


> For those people thinking i am making this up well, here are some pictures of the amplifier.The problem is in the Qc as said by my technician.he had to replace some transistors. So now whose responsible for it?Shipping I dont think so.If qc is not the responsiblity of the Company than who is
> 
> 
> I once again thank those who have supported me.



Very pretty pictures. Absolute proof that you...aren't...what are we talking about? I don't think anyone said that you were making it up. In fact I specifically said that since nobody on this board really cares, it is probable that the jig is good. So...it's your judgement that was questioned

The button you pushed with me is how verbally you've bashed an amp after making the point that it was not worthy of your efforts. I bet you could fit a 3 amps (not sure where that number came from(2 usually suffices...even though I'm sporting 5 now)) if you didn't insist on an amp that you've proved wasn't worthy. Being an owner of overpriced amps, I get pretty tired of sour grapes. You sir, sound like you're lips are puckering with the thought of sour grapes. Though, as I've mentioned, I'm not convinced that is the case, just that you're weird, is all. Embrace that, it's good for the soul to be weird

You're support is thorough and from all sides. Some of us are supporting you in other ways by attempting to further the species by implying the use of logic become part of our daily lives



friction said:


> [The Butlers IMO, whilst sounding good in the midrange/highs, is an overpriced, oversized, underpowered simpleton amplifier that tries to be more then it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man....you bought one!?!?!? Why are you saying these things?



friction said:


> Mailed Me and asked why posted on public forum?
> 
> FIGURE IT OUT BUTTHEAD!!!!!!!!!


I'll bet there is more than one side to this story. 

You asked if anyone had any suggestions for 5 channel amps....I'm going to suggest a Tube Driver Blue that may or may not be in your immediate veicinity. It is relatively new and has had some minor repairs performed so it's in top shape.

Really, if it took less than 24 hours to fix maybe it wasn't so bad. Considering your friend fixed it, you're expenses may be relatively low (wanna share?). You bought the amp that you, yourself, has attested to it's worthiness as far as sound goes. You happen to need five-channels...I'm thinking go with Butler

No matter how many times you throw out 'read the whole post' you're still going to sound weird on this one.

Good luck. I sound weird all the time. You get used to it


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> OK. I believe the biasing statement came before we found out there was no plate voltage....otherwise it would be a valid point. Anyway, I never suggested that he needs to go out and bias some tubes that aren't doing anything. We were on the subject at the time but that subject has moved on. Keep up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



HEHEHEHE YOU FUNNY MAN,
I feel you butler's friend,I think friction angry because brand new amplifier is not function.

let me give example to you,If you buy new car and it breakdown in the middle of the road. how you feeling?

I think you can dancing on the street with joy! yes?hehheheheh

yes you are weird man

nice to know you


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> HEHEHEHE YOU FUNNY MAN,
> I feel you butler's friend,I think friction angry because brand new amplifier is not function.
> 
> let me give example to you,If you buy new car and it breakdown in the middle of the road. how you feeling?
> ...


hey, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is if you go online and tell evryone how crappy Audi is, then go buy an Audi, then it breaks, no I won't be jumping in the street happy. I will however, expect someone to say...not necessarily *I *told you so, but *you *told *you* so. I believe there is a difference here.

It doens't fix the problem, but it is a source of entertainment for the weird. The OP, he's weird. Since his amp is fixed, he might as well jump on board and enjoy the same level of entertainment that I've enjoyed


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



~thematt~ said:


> We've played with the new Blue amps, and actually removed the tubes whilst the unit was still operating. It still works, and almost no audible change (there was a bit, but none worse for wear).
> 
> We were careful though, and checked a whole heap of measurements first. Obviously you'd be suicidal to do it to a REAL tube amp, with the high voltages across the plates. Fortunately, the Butler _isnt_ a real tube amp, and the voltage across the plates is minimal (ie. replacing the tubes, if you really want to, doesnt require any sort of genius. We've rolled a few tubes through them before).
> 
> ...




@AWC

orignal statement made by thematt in page one.


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> @AWC
> 
> orignal statement made by thematt in page one


?!?!?

Why would this be @AWC? AWC didn't get involved with this portion of the argument. In fact, there was no argument at this point. AWC got involved with AWC's POC of friction's....logic. Not sure what it has to do with this, though. I can do this all day


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> ?!?!?
> 
> Why would this be @AWC? AWC didn't get involved with this portion of the argument. In fact, there was no argument at this point. AWC got involved with AWC's POC of friction's....logic. Not sure what it has to do with this, though. I can do this all day


we all understand friction is victim.He have say hustler is better only in price.i sell hustler too.now he buy branded butler with reason for car theater and new expensive amplifier broken.before amplifer install already broken 
heheheheh Funny


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

I'm sorry man. I don't even know what you are talking about?

curiously, you stated you sell hustler...and yet the set you had for sale was won in a contest? I'm sure that friction is glad that you are defending him.....seems fishy at some points. None of my business, though. Why exactly do you keep bringing this back up? The most recent "@AWC" made no sense at all. Now you are saying you sell hustler when I clearly remember you winning hustler, meanwhile friction needs to point out how terrible Butler is while proving how great hustler is...frankly, I thoink you're outgunned, here. No offense. I don't care other than don't tell us something is crap, then buy it, and complain about it being crappy. The rest of the topic is uninteresting to me since it doesn't seem legit, IMO. My opinion doesn't matter so leave it alone, ok? I can do this with you but you will have to come to terms with the possible outcomes involved. I say again, it seems fishy. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38186


----------



## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> we all understand friction is victim.He have say hustler is better only in price.i sell hustler too.now he buy branded butler with reason for car theater and new expensive amplifier broken.before amplifer install already broken
> heheheheh Funny


they need to do way instain mothers!


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

sorry dont understand explaination please


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> I'm sorry man. I don't even know what you are talking about?
> 
> curiously, you stated you sell hustler...and yet the set you had for sale was won in a contest? I'm sure that friction is glad that you are defending him.....seems fishy at some points. None of my business, though. Why exactly do you keep bringing this back up? The most recent "@AWC" made no sense at all. Now you are saying you sell hustler when I clearly remember you winning hustler, meanwhile friction needs to point out how terrible Butler is while proving how great hustler is...frankly, I thoink you're outgunned, here. No offense. I don't care other than don't tell us something is crap, then buy it, and complain about it being crappy. The rest of the topic is uninteresting to me since it doesn't seem legit, IMO. My opinion doesn't matter so leave it alone, ok? I can do this with you but you will have to come to terms with the possible outcomes involved. I say again, it seems fishy.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38186



hehe you dont read detail.i won hustler pacakge,i am from taiwan and hustler distributor here.


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> I'm sorry man. I don't even know what you are talking about?
> 
> curiously, you stated you sell hustler...and yet the set you had for sale was won in a contest? I'm sure that friction is glad that you are defending him.....seems fishy at some points. None of my business, though. Why exactly do you keep bringing this back up? The most recent "@AWC" made no sense at all. Now you are saying you sell hustler when I clearly remember you winning hustler, meanwhile friction needs to point out how terrible Butler is while proving how great hustler is...frankly, I thoink you're outgunned, here. No offense. I don't care other than don't tell us something is crap, then buy it, and complain about it being crappy. The rest of the topic is uninteresting to me since it doesn't seem legit, IMO. My opinion doesn't matter so leave it alone, ok? I can do this with you but you will have to come to terms with the possible outcomes involved. I say again, it seems fishy.
> 
> ...


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> well, i know is the amps are really good and sound more or less like usamps and butler.speakers use true ribbon tweeters extend upto 40khz. i dont know much abt the company, just won 1st place in taiwan and i got this as free gift bcos i use their brand here.i can ship to the usa but i dont the shipping cost.sorry my english not very good


Dude, STFU! You clearly state it was won and you don't know much about the company.



T-BEAR said:


> hehe you dont read detail.i won hustler pacakge,i am from taiwan and hustler distributor here.



If you are going to begin a battle of words, make sure you speak the language. I don't care one way or another. There is too much fichiness. I don't see a benefit to me, other than entertainment, or the board to continue this conversation with you. You are full of **** like a Christmas turkey, IMO. I, however, will admit, if you like, that I was wrong and it was my mis-translation of your words that gave you the nice chuckle. My fault. You are obviously on the up and up....both of you. Good luck. There's no reason to keep this going, I thought something was fishy (BTW there was more than one fishy thing going on, hereIMO) and I asked for clarification. Your constant defense of this poor 'victim' is not at all fishy....just the series of coincidences, which, I digress, are simply that, coincidences


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> Dude, STFU! You clearly state it was won and you don't know much about the company.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that post was made long ago friend ,recently appointed distributor.looks like you get angry fast.heheheh you know you are wrong


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

..this topic not about hustler.its about butler broken amplifier.U forget? C..bai


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> AWC said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry man. I don't even know what you are talking about?
> ...


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> T-BEAR said:
> 
> 
> > WTF?! Dude....I really feel like the United States Army going up against Guam in land combat. You have no business in this league. Everything you have pointed out is fine and dandy. I don't care. I'm remaining here because I like to play duck-hunt. It's such an easy game. I'm not defending Butler. Never even heard them. People on this board know that I sport Sinfoni's and could care less about Butler. Still, if someone pisses on my leg and tries to point out storm clouds to blame....
> ...


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> I help friction,he is my friend and very good guy


Good to help !


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



a$$hole said:


> Good to help !


thank you


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> hehe you dont read detail.i won hustler pacakge,i am from taiwan and hustler distributor here.





T-BEAR said:


> that post was made long ago friend ,recently appointed distributor.looks like you get angry fast.heheheh you know you are wrong


Which is it? I don't read detail? or this post made long ago? 

BTW, I'm not angry. You are seeing me at my, almost, finest and are simply knocking some of the dull points off the edge. If I were to feel some sort of emotional attachment to this then anger may be a possibility. You must understand by now, this is simply the ability to pull the legs off of a grasshopper. I don't care about the grasshopper. Have you stopped to consider why I didn't outright call BS on my first reply, rather, I simply asked for clarification? Why exactly does the cat toy with the mouse? I have no idea other than for fun. You however, have attached yourself to the OP's issue which happens to , seemingly, benefit you...who happens to have many similarities to the OP....curious.

Are you absolutely sure you want to continue this? If so, I'll wait for a thread to show up in the Off-Topic section because, frankly, this is so much ******** that I would prefer to fan it over to those that could use some light hearted entertainment. 

Otherwise, I think we can agree to disagree (on what point I'm still not sure.) The OP had a rough time and I'm sorry for that. He clarified needing the 5-channle TBD for home theater purposes...a month or so after telling us about the ebay purchase he made on a hustler. BTW, you two seem to travel in the same posts....and friction happens to be the one that left you your positive itrader rating. 

why does he need another amp. he bought one in april....you sold your way too quick and yet he can't fit more than the one in his car?

You're outgunned. Go away or OT, you choose.


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> Which is it? I don't read detail? or this post made long ago?
> 
> BTW, I'm not angry. You are seeing me at my, almost, finest and are simply knocking some of the dull points off the edge. If I were to feel some sort of emotional attachment to this then anger may be a possibility. You must understand by now, this is simply the ability to pull the legs off of a grasshopper. I don't care about the grasshopper. Have you stopped to consider why I didn't outright call BS on my first reply, rather, I simply asked for clarification? Why exactly does the cat toy with the mouse? I have no idea other than for fun. You however, have attached yourself to the OP's issue which happens to , seemingly, benefit you...who happens to have many similarities to the OP....curious.
> 
> ...


Friction is car audio dealer of course he needs many amps for install.taiwan is close to thailand,so i sell.he need butler so he buy.


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

you will not win.


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

you can defend ,i also know i canFriction buy my amplifier,for sell again.may buy butler for customer,amplifier broken ,customer cancel Customer dont buy broken product.friction need keep product.this is possible


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> you will not win.


perhaps this is where our differences truly lie. I may or may not win. It is mostly because the allure of the winning prize has escaped my attention. What are we fighting for? 

Just because you keep replying, doesn't mean you are still in the running. It just means you don't know when to quit. I can help you with this. Quit, not when you have been beaten (that time has come and gone) but when your struggle no longer seems to make sense to you. Since friction is your customer...friend..alter-ego, you should continue the good fight soi that you can claim victory. If you so desire, I'll substantiate your claims. Don't ask me to believe it, though.

Really, though. Why would anybody purchase from so far away...in other words, your fight to retain your customer base is valid (if it is non-ficticious) but still pointless because you're demographics are all wroing. Basically, it doesn't make sense for you to continue fighting unless it is for the same reaosn as mine, entertainment. Remember that I have nothing on the line, here. You can't compete with that just like you can't stop a suicide bomber by using deadly force.

You may think that I'm striking a tone of aggrivation, anger or even irritation...you are incorrect. My tone is plainly obvious to those that know me well enough to see the score, here. I am warming up. However, I must insist that any furhter silliness be taken OT for the good of the board. If you choose to accept that as a victory, I offer you my absolute congratulations. Otherwise, I'll see you in OT.


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> you can defend ,i also know i canFriction buy my amplifier,for sell again.may buy butler for customer,amplifier broken ,customer cancel Customer dont buy broken product.friction need keep product.this is possible


holy ****, a new facet of the ever changing stream of fluid bull-****. Now we are working on his *possible* customer servise issues?

unsubscribed


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> perhaps this is where our differences truly lie. I may or may not win. It is mostly because the allure of the winning prize has escaped my attention. What are we fighting for?
> 
> Just because you keep replying, doesn't mean you are still in the running. It just means you don't know when to quit. I can help you with this. Quit, not when you have been beaten (that time has come and gone) but when your struggle no longer seems to make sense to you. Since friction is your customer...friend..alter-ego, you should continue the good fight soi that you can claim victory. If you so desire, I'll substantiate your claims. Don't ask me to believe it, though.
> 
> ...


WHy you say ********?
friction only made statement compare about price of butler + hustler.UNDERSTAND??????????
he buy butler from butler with money for project.Amplifier broken .He is angry Why is this bull ****?


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

i feel you are complicated person


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Something seem's very goofy here. I've known a few people with Butler amps, never a problem right out of the box. I still wouldn't buy one. Now, you aparently bought a butler amp, sought it out specifically, it wasn't sold in your country, so you went oversea's to source it. There was a problem after oversea's shipping, and you think butler should pay the shipping because you live in a different country? If I moved to the moon, should butler pay the shipping there if it was defective? I'd say butlers obligation is with shipping to it's dealers, and those local to their dealers, or at the very least in the country of origin. You are the one oversea's, you should be responsible for shipping and imports to your country, not butler. If you bought a $100 amp from butler, and it cost $200 to get it to you, then upon installation, it broke, should butler pay $200 on a $100 amp for you to ship it back? What if it was an ESO problem? (Equipment superior to operator) Should butler eat the obnoxious shipping and import fee's then too? I'd say since you sought out an oversea's product, you are responsible for the costs of transport too and from the original country. If I bought something from Taiwan, or malasia that was not available or marketed here, I would not expect the seller to cover the added expense, regardless of whether the product was faulty or not. Their obligation ends at fixing it for free. This is all IMO though. 


Someone seem's to have a biased interest towards Hustler as well, which could be the ridiculous foundation for starting this butler trashing thread. TO REITERATE, I DO NOT OWN A BUTLER, NOR AM I EVER LIKELY TO.


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

LET ME EXPLAIN AGAIN.READ THE ALL IN DETAIL.DONT LIKE MONKEY IN THE ZOO.JUMPING JUMPING

ALMOST EVERYBODY FEEL SORRY FOR FRICTION ONLY YOU SAY ITS ********!WHY?THATS WHY I SAY YOU ARE BUTLER FRIEND OR BUTLER.YOU WANT TO DEFEND DISHONEST SELLER.

WHY FRICTION BUY FROM BUTLER?BUTLER NO DISTRIBUTOR IN THAILAND.WHERE TO BUY FROM?ANOTHER COUNTRY OR FROM BUTLER?

WHY BUTLER SELL TO FRICTION?BUTLER NO DISTIBUTOR IN THAILAND,IF THERE IS DISTRIBUTOR IN THAILAND BUTLER WILL SAY TO FRICTION TO BUY FROM THERE.AND THERE NO PROBLEM LIKE THIS 

HE BUY FROM BUTLER,NOW BUTLER SELL BROKEN AMP...

YOU STILL DONT UNDERSTAND?I DONT KNOW WAT TO TELL YOU


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> Something seem's very goofy here. I've known a few people with Butler amps, never a problem right out of the box. I still wouldn't buy one. Now, you aparently bought a butler amp, sought it out specifically, it wasn't sold in your country, so you went oversea's to source it. There was a problem after oversea's shipping, and you think butler should pay the shipping because you live in a different country? If I moved to the moon, should butler pay the shipping there if it was defective? I'd say butlers obligation is with shipping to it's dealers, and those local to their dealers, or at the very least in the country of origin. You are the one oversea's, you should be responsible for shipping and imports to your country, not butler. If you bought a $100 amp from butler, and it cost $200 to get it to you, then upon installation, it broke, should butler pay $200 on a $100 amp for you to ship it back? What if it was an ESO problem? (Equipment superior to operator) Should butler eat the obnoxious shipping and import fee's then too? I'd say since you sought out an oversea's product, you are responsible for the costs of transport too and from the original country. If I bought something from Taiwan, or malasia that was not available or marketed here, I would not expect the seller to cover the added expense, regardless of whether the product was faulty or not. Their obligation ends at fixing it for free. This is all IMO though.
> 
> 
> Someone seem's to have a biased interest towards Hustler as well, which could be the ridiculous foundation for starting this butler trashing thread. TO REITERATE, I DO NOT OWN A BUTLER, NOR AM I EVER LIKELY TO.


maybe you dont follow the thread my friend,the problem is due to qc of amplifier.not shipping.tansistor failure


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> maybe you dont follow the thread my friend,the problem is due to qc of amplifier.not shipping.tansistor failure


Says who? How do you know that? They have a good enough rep that frixtion or whoever sought them out specifically, and bought their amp. Are you there looking at or repairing the amp? As far as you know it could be an installer error, or ESO problem. (Equipment Superior to Operator). Why should butler pay obnoxious shipping because you sought them out from halfway around the world? Was he marketing it there to you? Negative! 

QC my butt... nobody (including myself) know's what's wrong with the amp, or what caused it. Regardless of the problem, butler should eat the repair, not the shipping to around the world. Standard practice for most companys.


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

i see alot of thread here say they buy used amplifier and its broken ,and want refund.friction buy new amplifier direct from butler usa.and broken

i feel all of us should sell broken product and blame shipping.very easy money hehehhe


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

You guys are crazy. I want to buy something from your country, some item we don't have here, have it shipped here to the US, then I'm going to claim it's defective, and tell you I want you to eat the shipping and import fee's to the US. Sound fair? What do you sell, let's try it and see how willing you are to eat those costs from a foreign buyer that sought you out. Holy crap you guys are off base...


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> Says who? How do you know that? They have a good enough rep that frixtion or whoever sought them out specifically, and bought their amp. Are you there looking at or repairing the amp? As far as you know it could be an installer error, or ESO problem. (Equipment Superior to Operator). Why should butler pay obnoxious shipping because you sought them out from halfway around the world? Was he marketing it there to you? Negative!
> 
> QC my butt... nobody (including myself) know's what's wrong with the amp, or what caused it. Regardless of the problem, butler should eat the repair, not the shipping to around the world. Standard practice for most companys.


Audison,sinfoni,EXILE and Huslter Pays half the shipping for brand new but defective products.I know I am distributor for 3 products above


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> Audison,sinfoni,EXILE and Huslter Pays half the shipping for brand new but defective products.I know I am distributor for 3 products above


If you are a distributor, that means they have distribution in that country, and wouldn't need single item shipping from around the globe. They are marketed there, and shipping to that country is added into the costs. See the difference? 

They would have authorized repair centers set up in your country as well. 

There's that hustler word again. Hawking their products? You already admitted to being a distributor. Talk about biased interests here....


----------



## Jopop (Jun 23, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> You should try to bias your preamp tubes sometime


 I assumed we were talking about a tube amp.. not a hybrid. If the pretubes are bust just swap them.. they're cathode biased unless your amp is fail 2000.


Wait wtf.. the tubes are only used as buffers, and are cathode followers? I'd rather take an opamp.. tube sound my ass


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> You guys are crazy. I want to buy something from your country, some item we don't have here, have it shipped here to the US, then I'm going to claim it's defective, and tell you I want you to eat the shipping and import fee's to the US. Sound fair? What do you sell, let's try it and see how willing you are to eat those costs from a foreign buyer that sought you out. Holy crap you guys are off base...


after looking at this thread more people overseas will see and fear buying now.we cannot trust anyone.Good luck


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> after looking at this thread more people overseas will see and fear buying now.we cannot trust anyone.Good luck


See and fear buying what? Stuff that's not available there anyway? No big loss, we're probably talking about 20 items yearly spread out over 20 companies. 

You guys are crazy. What can I buy from you? I'll claim it's defective and see if you pay for the shipping and import duties to return it and get me another one. lol


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> If you are a distributor, that means they have distribution in that country, and wouldn't need single item shipping from around the globe. They are marketed there, and shipping to that country is added into the costs. See the difference?
> 
> They would have authorized repair centers set up in your country as well.
> 
> There's that hustler word again. Hawking their products? You already admitted to being a distributor. Talk about biased interests here....


hello i mentioned 2 other big brands,I m a distributor but in this thread i also say that hustler stop manufactuing tube amps.and just make speakers.look and check.you can email them and ask.they discontinue tube amps,


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> hello i mentioned 2 other big brands,I m a distributor but in this thread i also say that hustler stop manufactuing tube amps.and just make speakers.look and check.you can email them and ask.they discontinue tube amps,


You missed my main point. Do you see the difference in responsibility from a company that has distribution in your country, to one that had no interest in selling there in the first place?

I'm gonna import a Citroen (sp?) Automobile. They don't sell them here in the US. Then I'm going to claim the brakes are bad, and tell them I want them to warranty it and eat the cost of shipping the car back to them. lol.... Think they'll go for it? Are they a bad company if they don't?


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> LET ME EXPLAIN AGAIN.READ THE ALL IN DETAIL.DONT LIKE MONKEY IN THE ZOO.JUMPING JUMPING
> 
> ALMOST EVERYBODY FEEL SORRY FOR FRICTION ONLY YOU SAY ITS ********!WHY?THATS WHY I SAY YOU ARE BUTLER FRIEND OR BUTLER.YOU WANT TO DEFEND DISHONEST SELLER.
> 
> ...


dude, calm down. we understand the point you are trying to make...at all costs. You are getting the issues twisted. If butler sent a broken amp then they should reimburse repair fees. This guy got his fixed. What's the problem?
The issue is going onto a public forum and acting like this is business as usual and that Butler's practices are faulty. Again, I could care less about Butler. The fact is I don't believe any of the story...at all. 

So yeah, I understand. I just don't believe you. I still don't care. There are too many coincidences. I think you and he are one and the same and have come here in an effort to sell hutler as a valid butler replacement.....good luck.


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> You missed my main point. Do you see the difference in responsibility from a company that has distribution in your country, to one that had no interest in selling there in the first place?


OK I buy amplifier from viperaudio.only one was broken but they pay half way shipping.Why?


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> You missed my main point. Do you see the difference in responsibility from a company that has distribution in your country, to one that had no interest in selling there in the first place?


OK I buy 2amplifier from viperaudio.only one was broken but they pay half way shipping.Why?


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> dude, calm down. we understand the point you are trying to make...at all costs. You are getting the issues twisted. If butler sent a broken amp then they should reimburse repair fees. This guy got his fixed. What's the problem?
> The issue is going onto a public forum and acting like this is business as usual and that Butler's practices are faulty. Again, I could care less about Butler. The fact is I don't believe any of the story...at all.
> 
> So yeah, I understand. I just don't believe you. I still don't care. There are too many coincidences. I think you and he are one and the same and have come here in an effort to sell hutler as a valid butler replacement.....good luck.


HUSTLER DONT MAKE TUBE AMPS .READ THE THREAD


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

NO point talking HUSTLER .IT MAkes only speakers and ss amps.NO CONNECTION TO BUTLER


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> Let me add some words Hustler only supply 2channel Tube amps.Now no more stock and hustler are discontinue the old version tube amps.new models coming out but solidstate only version.I guess they stop is to avoid this accident type situation.the solidstate four channel is very nice


look


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

I was not going to wade in, yet here I am

This issue is rediculous, butler should be on the hook for everything, and here is why.

Every commodity has two values, its exchange value, and it usage value. Butler has capitalized on the exchange value insofar as they have received payment. Now, the end user has exchanged his money for usage value.... which in this case, for whatever reason, was not possible... straight out of the box. Now he has to send his 'brand new amp' back, and absorb rediculous costs... what does he get?

He gets a refurbished amp for *MORE* than brand new price... that is a scam if I have ever heard of one. 

I would ship the amp back with a value of 1/4 indicated for taxation purposes, as it simply does not work and is not worth as much as a new, working amplifier, but more the sum total of its individual parts.

Butler should man up and send him a brand new amp, in exchange he (the O.P.) should eat the cost of shipping and the import tax on the exportation (if that makes any sense which it doesn't), butler should eat the new importation tax.

If the OP had used the amp even for an hour then he would have benefited from the use value, but he did not. Essentially, he got nothing for his money.. that is just wrong. Furthermore it is wrong to put the responsibility on him as it is not a warranty issue but a DOA issue (which is different).

That being said, if I worked at butler and found out he had his friend dink around with the guts (like has happened) I would tell him to go eff himself.

Out.


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

thread was read...I read the thread that's been said. You fine sir, are skipping ahead

please do attempt to shed some light as to why you and I must fight.

I offer truth, yet a nerve I must have hit, it's cuz we've found you are full of ****.


the point of argue to which I spoke, is that you are friction and he is both

hand me **** and I'll hand it back for in your words is crap crap crap

indeed I ask you not be misled it's in the details of the **** you've fed. 

I say again this time I jested that this is silly and you've been bested


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



BoostedNihilist said:


> I was not going to wade in, yet here I am
> 
> This issue is rediculous, butler should be on the hook for everything, and here is why.
> 
> ...



Thank You Friend,Friction amp already fixed now.transistor failure.friction told me. 2 channels not working.


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> thread was read...I read the thread that's been said. You fine sir, are skipping ahead
> 
> please do attempt to shed some light as to why you and I must fight.
> 
> ...



IF I AM FRICTION YOU ARE BUTLER  AND YOU ARE A FOOL


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



BoostedNihilist said:


> I was not going to wade in, yet here I am
> 
> This issue is rediculous, butler should be on the hook for everything, and here is why.
> 
> ...



hehe, I agree. I asked for clarification on some weirdness and here we are. If the events happened the way it is said to have happened (barring the fact that his friend was in the guts the same day as arrival) I wouold have said..no I would have passed up the thread...but if I had said anything it would have been that butler should pay for repairs or something feasible...I don't think this is what happened. I, nor anybody else, knows what happened. One way or another there was some impatience going on and the guys had to have the amp torn into that day. Fine. 

I just don't buy it. It wouldn't matter at all, when I chimed in I offered no opinion. Now, with the facts in, my opinion is stated. Sounds fishy.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



Jopop said:


> I assumed we were talking about a tube amp.. not a hybrid. If the pretubes are bust just swap them.. they're cathode biased unless your amp is fail 2000.
> 
> 
> Wait wtf.. the tubes are only used as buffers, and are cathode followers? I'd rather take an opamp.. tube sound my ass


Egg-Zachary


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> IF I AM FRICTION YOU ARE BUTLER  AND YOU ARE A FOOL


oh jeez....MEDIC!!!!!!...I don't know DOC he just started spewing crap....he what? he's filled with it? 

dude, no offense, but it was fun while it lasted. I tried...in the end I just didn't care enough to give you my full devotion. If I had a tourniquette, maybe....but..I just don't think its gonna work. Too much crap. Why didn't we just get clarification instead of all the drama? It was fun while it lasted but as soon as you pull the "I know you are but what am I?" card...I dunno..not worth the trouble.


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> oh jeez....MEDIC!!!!!!...I don't know DOC he just started spewing crap....he what? he's filled with it?
> 
> dude, no offense, but it was fun while it lasted. I tried...in the end I just didn't care enough to give you my full devotion. If I had a tourniquette, maybe....but..I just don't think its gonna work. Too much crap. Why didn't we just get clarification instead of all the drama? It was fun while it lasted but as soon as you pull the "I know you are but what am I?" card...I dunno..not worth the trouble.


You can go your way.Dont need your devotion,just need you...uhmmm Butler to send new amp to .

Friction send repair amp to butler usa friction pay.

Bulter send New amp to friction Bulter Pay.

EveryBody happy


----------



## T-BEAR (May 14, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> oh jeez....MEDIC!!!!!!...I don't know DOC he just started spewing crap....he what? he's filled with it?
> 
> dude, no offense, but it was fun while it lasted. I tried...in the end I just didn't care enough to give you my full devotion. If I had a tourniquette, maybe....but..I just don't think its gonna work. Too much crap. Why didn't we just get clarification instead of all the drama? It was fun while it lasted but as soon as you pull the "I know you are but what am I?" card...I dunno..not worth the trouble.


ONE DAY YOU EAT YOUR OWN CRAP


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> ONE DAY YOU EAT YOUR OWN CRAP


LMFAO!!!! What the hell, the image was already ready to paste for another post. This is deserving as well. That was an excellent response T-Bear. It was a proud moment for us all.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> ONE DAY YOU EAT YOUR OWN CRAP


First off, ease up man, no reason for that, although that would almost constitute as sig material if anyone really cared


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> First off, ease up man, no reason for that, although that would almost constitute as sig material if anyone really cared


Friction should have bought from you ! 

Friction not thinking with 20-20 foresight { ie. what if something goes wrong }


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



a$$hole said:


> Friction should have bought from you !
> 
> Friction not thinking with 20-20 foresight { ie. what if something goes wrong }


Neither was Butler.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



BoostedNihilist said:


> I was not going to wade in, yet here I am
> 
> This issue is rediculous, butler should be on the hook for everything, and here is why.
> 
> Every commodity has two values, its exchange value, and it usage value. Butler has capitalized on the exchange value insofar as they have received payment. Now, the end user has exchanged his money for usage value.... which in this case, for whatever reason, was not possible... straight out of the box. Now he has to send his 'brand new amp' back, and absorb rediculous costs... what does he get?


Ludicrous. Commodity's have two value's alright, brand new, and used. His is now a broken used amp. I've been doing audio a long long time, do you know how many amps i've seen defective out of the box? I can count them on one hand. The likelyhood is much greater (i'd say 95%) that the problem he is experiencing was caused by himself. Butler receive payment, he receive a brand new amp. The amp had 3 working channels, so he did get to use it.

Let's put one more spin on it. Butler sells an amp to a guy who put's it in his tractor in antartica. The guy installs it at the south pole, and has a problem with it. Should butler pay for a plane to come down to the south pole to pick up the amp? This is just a larger scale, but is the same scenario. They don't sell amps in Taiwan, or malaysia. This is why they are not responsible for shipping, just fixing the amp. It is beyond their control as to where the end user ends up. I don't know of any company's paying half shipping. Show me proof that any company will pay for shipping from oversea's on a "allegedly" defective product, and i'll show you a company that won't be in business much longer. 




BoostedNihilist said:


> He gets a refurbished amp for *MORE* than brand new price... that is a scam if I have ever heard of one.


Why is that a scam? You think you should be able to blow up anything and get a new one? Every company should take your word that "it just broke"? Wow... just wow. 



BoostedNihilist said:


> I would ship the amp back with a value of 1/4 indicated for taxation purposes, as it simply does not work and is not worth as much as a new, working amplifier, but more the sum total of its individual parts.
> 
> Butler should man up and send him a brand new amp, in exchange he (the O.P.) should eat the cost of shipping and the import tax on the exportation (if that makes any sense which it doesn't), butler should eat the new importation tax.


Why? Again, how is it butler's fault that he lives out of the country, and has ridiculous import duties? $135 seems extrordinarily high. Almost "made up", again, butler should take the customers word? What if the customer broke the amp? Even if the amp has issues, how is it their fault that it's not within reasonable shipping cost and distance? Did they seek out someone oversea's to sell to? They are not set up for sales in that country, and if they were, the OP would likely have payed a lot more than he did for the amp. (even though i'm sure it was already expensive). Hogwash that butler should eat crazy overseas shipping fee's when they never offered it for sale in that country to begin with. 



BoostedNihilist said:


> If the OP had used the amp even for an hour then he would have benefited from the use value, but he did not. Essentially, he got nothing for his money.. that is just wrong. Furthermore it is wrong to put the responsibility on him as it is not a warranty issue but a DOA issue (which is different).
> 
> That being said, if I worked at butler and found out he had his friend dink around with the guts (like has happened) I would tell him to go eff himself.
> 
> Out.


You must have missed the part where he said he did use it, and 3 channels worked fine. That suggests to me that something was wrong with two of the speaker wires or speakers themselves. IMO, this is the more likely candidate for the cause of the OP's problem. 

The amp is a warranty issue, and was not DOA, but had 2 bad channels. Butler absolutely is responsible for the repair, but not the addtional shipping. 
I don't know of any company's that eat the shipping, even here in the states. They usually have a disclaimer saying they are not responsible for shipping fee's and installation fee's should a problem arise. They are only responsible for the product. 

Granted, i'd be upset too,and i'd probably insist that it was broken out of the box as well. Like I said though, likelihood of a DOA amp from any reputable manufacturer is less than 5%.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



cajunner said:


> it really looks as if the way to a new amplifier is to bully amp maker's reputation around on the net until something happens.
> 
> after all, it's worked in the past, and if the butler feller would like to stop seeing his beloved product being dragged through offshore mud, he'd buck up and send a new amp, free of charge, just for the convenience of friction and friction would slide like vaseline...
> 
> ...


Highly agree. He went from loving the amp, to hating it in 2 seconds flat. Thanks for reiterating my points.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



> > Ludicrous. Commodity's have two value's alright, brand new, and used. His is now a broken used amp.
> 
> 
> Lol, that's just stupid.
> ...


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



BoostedNihilist said:


> > Lol, that's just stupid.
> >
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



> 15 years in the industry, and i've had less than 5 DOA amps.


So it's four then right? Or is it three?

For all I know in fifteen years you could have installed ten amps which would make 3 or 4 doa 30 or 40% 



> I think you are falling prey to someone who simply want's to trash butlers rep.


I take him at his word. Just like if you had the same issue I woudl take you at your word.. oh wait I would not take you at your word because you're already a self confessed douchebag...



> Granted, i'd be upset too,and i'd probably insist that it was broken out of the box as well.


Just because you are personally willing to lie and cheat your way into a new amp does not mean that is the societal norm... Does your mommy know she raised a moral degenerate?



> You think every weenie that buys a Exotic car know's how to drive?


That comment has no logical foundation! lol. 

When you buy a car to drive you need a license 
to get a license you need to pass a driving test
to pass a driving test you need to know how to drive. 
Nice try though.

So yes, while they may not be schumey, they must clearly know how to drive as it is requisite for the usage value of the commidty.


----------



## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

bad amps out of the box happen....I have no idea about butlers regular customer service, but I think this is the risk when you buy out of country and have no distributor in your country.

I am not getting into all the hearsay, but the reality is that is part of the risk. Unfortunately you took the risk and lost.... if butler had a distributor in your country I think it would be a different story and they would be responsible for the cost of getting it back and forth and taxes or fees.

if I went to Japan and bought an amp, brought it home and it didn't work.... who would be responsible for getting it back to Japan for repair?

I do feel bad for you and wish it did happen..sorry about that


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



BoostedNihilist said:


> So it's four then right? Or is it three?
> 
> For all I know in fifteen years you could have installed ten amps which would make 3 or 4 doa 30 or 40%
> 
> ...


Wow dude, if anyone's a douche, it would be you with those replys. 
I don't see how it matters, but i've sold/installed thousands of amps in the last 15 years. I can only remember two specific instances where an amp was truly DOA. 

I never said i'd lie or cheat, but not knowing the true cause of why the amp didn't work, i'm sure i'd insist it was DOA, as would you, and practically anyone on the forum, unless they were certain it was their fault it didn't work. Noone would be that certain though i'm sure. 

99% of the time, people will assume they did nothing to cause the problem, even if they did. It's human nature to disbeleive any fallibility in ourselves. 


By drive, I did not mean parallel park between the cones. Jeez, I wouldn't have thought you'd misinterpret that statement that badly. I mean really drive. As in scca race, as in harness the potential of the car on the street? My gf has a license, I wouldn't say she can "drive". 

Let the name calling escalate though. Show's how immature you are that you can't debate a topic without resorting to slinging mud. Also show's how unsure of your stance you actually are. Let's keep this proffesional here... name calling is beyond ridiculous...


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

@wrx and awc

Dude you shut the f..k Up, Who Are you? 

U can’t be talking so much if you had no interest or connection with butler,

Here Smart Ass enlighten yourself.

1. You say something is fishy, what is?

I bought a new amplifier paid in cash, paid shipping and what do I get
A useless amp? My project is for Car Theater and the center channel is dead
Plus the front right channel. Who won’t get pissed? Should I post the invoice?
I paid for a new amp and what do I get a repaired amp.

2. You say you don’t believe this story. Who are you to believe? It just makes it more obvious you are backing up butler. I don’t care if you believe or not, my fight is not with you. As a (international) client I have right to make comments. It’s just that on the phone butler (before purchase) was boasting so much about his amplifiers and his talent. Is this his talent? 2 dead channels? What about his special technique in packing the amps? What about the 30mins he spent with the amplifiers before check out?IS this the result?2 dead channels? 


3. You Say I started this thread to Dump Butler? Use common sense. I don’t need to Purchase a $1000 amplifier + shipping + import tax just to bring down Butler. Let me remind you I can easily get the amplifier from Japan or other parts of Asia. Instead I bought Direct from the company. Why? 

I even requested Butler to send me a replacement pcboard of the amp.So i dont have to wait and told him that i will send him the defective board.Come on Shipping a PCb IS not expensive,but he refused again.he said there is a serial number on the pcb.my friend opened the amp and there was no serial number. the only serial numbers are on the gift box and on the heatsink.I dont know if i got to use the infra light on the pcb.Basically Butler was just being difficult.How should i not get upset???

4. You say I am trying to sell Hustler as a replacement for butler? What for? Have you seen a thread me selling hustler? I bought it from eBay from (Indonesia seller) and from t-bear (Taiwan). Besides, Hustler stopped manufacturing tube amps. Which I feel is a wise choice. You don’t make any sense.

5. You say a lot of coincidence? What is? Is it because I made a comment few months ago that hustler is cheaper to butler? But I still bought a butler?

Dude, get real I just said hustler was cheaper and sound similar to butler. Many members in the forum here also said the butler is over priced. Some even said that the tube is just for show.

Anyway, Since I don’t have enough space in my double cabin I decided to go with the butler. I still need to add another subwoofer amp and 2 subs. I am using the butler for biamp maybe front rear and center channel. If I used hustler, I need 3pcs of their 2channel amps that’s $900.Besides I don’t have the space. So I went on with the butler which was $1000.


6. OK here is another case, I am sure you will be surprised again. Now don’t go around saying I am hawking this product. I ordered a DD (digital Design) subwoofers from Jassa. When it got here I was inspecting them and it seems to me one of the subs magnet slightly shifted. I emailed Jassa.And without any hassle and to keep relationship with an international customer he sent me a replacement. He said I could keep the defective sub, but no I sent it back, to show him I am not making this up.


Anyways I don’t give a blind f..k what you think n “shove your poetry up your ass”. The point is Butler sold me a defective amp and that’s the fact. Now the amplifier has been fixed and no matter how good the sound is it will still suck for me. I will just go ahead with my new audison. “NOT Hustler but AUDISON” Get the point or this is too much for you?


----------



## schuey_1 (Nov 11, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Nice choice AUDISON 

Butler = POS


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



> I never said i'd lie or cheat, but not knowing the true cause of why the amp didn't work, i'm sure i'd insist it was DOA, as would you, and practically anyone on the forum, unless they were certain it was their fault it didn't work. Noone would be that certain though i'm sure.


Do not presume to know what I would do. I would certainly not insist it was DOA unless it was in fact DOA. 

Any monkey can hook up an amplifier. It doesn't take a godlike car audio prowess to hook up some wires which are clearly labelled. 

If the monkey hooks up the amp, and out of the box it does not work, then it is DOA.. simple as that.


> 99% of the time, people will assume they did nothing to cause the problem, even if they did. It's human nature to disbeleive any fallibility in ourselves


. 

Does this apply strictly to the end user? Or could butler be beholden to your ignorant generlization?




> By drive, I did not mean parallel park between the cones. Jeez, I wouldn't have thought you'd misinterpret that statement that badly.


I did not misinterpret this statement:



> You think every weenie that buys a Exotic car know's how to drive?


If you really meant



> By drive, I did not mean parallel park between the cones.


you should have written the statement to reflect that. 



> Show's how immature you are that you can't debate a topic without resorting to slinging mud.


Umm, you brought the OPs character into question, Im just playing ball your way... if you can't take the heat... put in less mekp.. (or get out the kitchen)


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Butler Testing report,

Dhl delivery from butler,
opened the amplifier ,hooked it to ac to dc 60amp mcap power supply ,not 12v car battery!!!

3tubes were on and 2 were dead.I didnt even connect it to speakers yet.Called Bk Butler later in the evening , explained situation.he asked me to connect the speakers,and see it if was just the blue led or the filament thats dead.he assumed the blue leds were dead.I followed Bk's instructions.

Used my bnw homespeakers.all channels working fine only front right and center channel dead.I called him back,asked if i could just replace the tube.He said no,and asked me to send the amp back.i explained about the shipping in advance.HE didnt seem to care.all he said was 

"i am Busy ok,I have unfinished business ok ,you send the amp back as no one can repair them"he said and has to rerun the check out procedure and rebias the amplifiers.

I asked if it was possible to send me a spare pc board.He said that there is a special technique to fit and install the tube pcb to heatsink.

And his constant "Bye Bye Now" was just irritating.Seemed like he was trying to avoid me.did he actually run the check out procedure on amplifer before he shipped out?I am curious to find out


Anyway Case closed I am happy with my audison.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Friends ,

Here is something to enlighten everyone of butlers Qc.I didnt discover it until my techician did.

I recall Buying a 5 channel amplifier n That is "Tube Driver Blue 575"

Look at the manual Book With butlers signature on it.See the model Number.

Its The wrong manual book.

Now who is full of ****?


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Wow, this is what I call QC of an amp that cost 1000


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



kyheng said:


> Wow, this is what I call QC of an amp that cost 1000


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> @wrx and awc
> 
> Dude you shut the f..k Up, Who Are you?
> 
> ...




I'm CERTAIN that they have no vested interest in butler, They both know, as I do, how warranty repair procedures work, you get it to the repair center (butler in this case) they get it to you. Now you eluded to the fact that they would not cover their end of post repair, I don't dig that at all, but 99.99999% of the time the customer covers shipping to the repair center, or gas, or oats for the pony, etc.

QAs for DOA and the fact that you don't think it was tested, it very well could have been tested and passed all of it's tests. **** happens man, thinks break, if the scenario of it "worked and then it didn't" did not exist we would have a world with everything broken or no broken gear, and we all know that's horse dookie. Who's to say that on that amplifiers journey there was not a close lightning strike or some other sort of EMP pulse? **** just happens, plain and simple, I've been in my fair share of DOA gear and indeed a lot of it is shipping damage internally. The different manual is an odd thing, certainly not normal, I imagine that the manual does not deviate far form the other models sans amount of inputs, still odd.

What I'm finding odd is the amount of members from across the pond flying off the handle in this thread, one of which is making absolutely no ****ing sense (Not Friction) I understand his anguish and disappointment, I deal with the receiving end of it all the time. 

Chad


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



BoostedNihilist said:


> So it's four then right? Or is it three?
> 
> For all I know in fifteen years you could have installed ten amps which would make 3 or 4 doa 30 or 40%
> 
> ...


Most of this is arguing JUST to ensure you can argue...and you're really doing a dissapointing job based on the amount of syllables in your username.




friction said:


> @wrx and awc
> 
> Dude you shut the f..k Up, Who Are you?
> 
> ...



Calm down bucko. I asked you my question. What gives? I already asked it and you already answered it. I said "wait a minute, didn't you just post how hustler's tube amps are identical to TDB's?"...that's what I asked because that's what you said. You said yeah but you needed a five channel and you wanted tubes...I feel ya. They entice me as well Here's the thing, if you don't freak out and start flinging poo at people, I people won't go back and dig up the crap your handing them. 

If there is nothing fishy than I imagine droppage would be in order. Friction, I feel you. Sorry for your problem. I think I said that. It's when bonehead jumped in to your rescuse at almost all costs that the real dumbshit started to surface. I did suggest there was an identity crisis since your life partner was making his best efforts at saving the damsel in distress. 

Now oddly enough we can expect a series of stupid replies shortly since the other dude from accross the pond does his DIYMA studies in the middle of the night

I still find it odd that your friend fixed it and now you don't want it at all.


BoostedNihilist said:


> Do not presume to know what I would do. I would certainly not insist it was DOA unless it was in fact DOA.
> 
> Any monkey can hook up an amplifier. It doesn't take a godlike car audio prowess to hook up some wires which are clearly labelled.
> 
> ...


I was the one questioning character, here. Also, I can tell by your basic demeanor that, if I do this with you, it will be a handfull. I'm not saying that I'm not up to the challenge....LOL....sorry, but this isn't the place. You'll probably need to be dealt with all the way in the dump (which is where some of this crap belongs)

We all agreed that something should be done. For the most part, I don't see why a tech couldn't check out the board and send a viable diagnosis before the hasty retreat to poor customer service. But let's face it, half of this guy's (these guys') posts on diyma involve Butler being over priced and extremely (suspectfully?) similar to the Huslter, which, convenitently the guy JUST bought, left a positive itrader score for each other....it's just too much!!

None of this would be necessary if it weren't for a few Butler bashing comments, then he buys one, I say what gives?, he throws a fit, then grammer boy can't shut up to save his carpal tunnels...its laughable.

but the moral degenerate stuff...I can see where you'd like to go. I don't really think you care about the topic at all so...you know...this isn't the thread. Find a worthy topic if you are going to argue for the sake of arguing. I'll be here. Its tough when there's a quasi-agreement. We don't really know what happened here but I'd bet some lines were left out of the conversation or some options left out. So forget it.



friction said:


> Butler Testing report,
> 
> Dhl delivery from butler,
> opened the amplifier ,hooked it to ac to dc 60amp mcap power supply ,not 12v car battery!!!
> ...


You guys operate quick over yonder


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> Friends ,
> 
> Here is something to enlighten everyone of butlers Qc.I didnt discover it until my techician did.
> 
> ...



So wait a minute, now you're admitting that you hooked it up, and determined it was defective without ever even reading the manual? (this should have been the first place to check for troubleshooting tips)   

It's common practice with an amp that expensive, that you've never dealt with before, to read the manual. 

If I did that, I would have assumed one of the tru steel's I was playing with was defective. After all, it goes into protect as soon as you power it up (with no speakers or rca's connected). This amp needs to see ground through the rca's, and have a load presented on it from the moment it's powered up. 

My point is, not every amp works exactly the same. 

On top of all this, it's very likely the amp was damaged in shipping. I've received a few boxes from asia, and even when the outside was not smashed, the inside goods were. They do not carry around their packages on large pillows... that's for sure. Vibration and droppage are among the top causes of electronics failure. 

Fiction, I do feel bad for you that you got a bum amp. It's never fun to have your new toy let you down. Going and trashing the maker, and even Titling the thread "Butler Cheated me" is taking it a little far. I'm sure as a long standing company, they would have taken care of the problem if you had shipped it back to them. Who know's, if given the chance to inspect the amp, maybe they would have eaten the shipping if they determined it was in fact defective, and not damaged. They weren't provided this opportunity though, and now you are bashing them, and saying they "Cheated" you. I don't find this to be true. What I do find to be true is that you did not want to pay to send it back. I'm not sure what the real reasoning is behind this, but it still doesn't make any sense to me. If I purchased a piece of gear that expensive, that arrived non-functioning, I would have send it back even if it cost me $100 (that has to be less than or = to your repair bill). If you had simply done that, all of this pain on your end, and this entire thread could have been avoided.

At this point, from butler's point of view, they sent you an amp that worked 100%. It arrived, and you hooked it up, and now it work's 66%. They ask you to send it back to them, and you refuse because of the cost. They don't want to eat the cost on something they're pretty sure is not their fault, so they tell you to send it back anyway. Instead, you have some random tech open up the amp. (you never told us what the problem was that he found), now you want to trash butler? This is what doesn't make sense. Their reputation can't be trashed by you at this point. They were never given the opportunity to make it right. You took it somewhere local instead. Anyway, what's done is done, and hopefully you have better luck with your Audison.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> So wait a minute, now you're admitting that you hooked it up, and determined it was defective without ever even reading the manual? (this should have been the first place to check for troubleshooting tips)
> 
> It's common practice with an amp that expensive, that you've never dealt with before, to read the manual.
> 
> ...


Buddy i am clam now,

I would just like to tell you that i know how to hook up an amplifier.thats how i know the tubes are not working.

My point here is the qc.How is it possible that butler send me a new 575 car theater amplifier with but the manual book of the 275?When he can make a mistake sending the wrong manual book,there is a possibility he did not check the amplifier before shipping.right?

let just be fair here


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> Buddy i am clam now,
> 
> I would just like to tell you that i know how to hook up an amplifier.thats how i know the tubes are not working.
> 
> ...


if we are throwing random poo, his poo smells just as bad as yours


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> Buddy i am clam now,
> 
> I would just like to tell you that i know how to hook up an amplifier.thats how i know the tubes are not working.
> 
> ...


It's very possible they use the same manual for all their amplifiers. Have you contacted them an asked them for a new manual? 

I'm glad you know how to hook up an amplifier, that part isn't difficult, but what wire size did you use. Did you hook up + or - first? Did you connect RCA's to it without the power lines connected first? Did you connect everything with the source going to it being on? 

I'm saying that their QC could be fine, and the amp could have been damaged during hookup, or more likely in shipping. I'd say there's an = chance for any of those possibilities. It's only natural though for you to rule out hookup error, but why have you automatically ruled out shipping damage? Simply because the box wasn't smashed?


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Butler's policies - nothing specific about international returns, but nothing about them paying 1/2 either. The terms should have been nailed down before the transaction took place. Please note that you could have shipped it back for a full refund of the purchase price as a worst case.

The title of this thread is absurd. Cheating doesn't mean not doing exactly what you want. The histrionic nature of your argument undercuts your credibility. I think the mods should change the title to something more appropriate like: Bad things can happen when you don't think ahead.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



Rudeboy said:


> Butler's policies - nothing specific about international returns, but nothing about them paying 1/2 either. The terms should have been nailed down before the transaction took place. Please note that you could have shipped it back for a full refund of the purchase price as a worst case.
> 
> The title of this thread is absurd. Cheating doesn't mean not doing exactly what you want. The histrionic nature of your argument undercuts your credibility. *I think the mods should change the title to something more appropriate like: Bad things can happen when you don't think ahead.*





Classic!

I'd probably change it to "*I bought an amp that was too expensive for me, and now I can't afford shipping. I guess i'll blame the manufacturer for my problems instead, it's cheaper*"


----------



## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> Buddy i am clam now


Don't be so shellfish.


----------



## MuTT (Apr 4, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



MidnightCE said:


> Don't be so shellfish.


LMAO


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



MidnightCE said:


> Don't be so shellfish.


I almost spit out my OJ when I read that... lol


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> [/U][/I][/B]
> Classic!
> 
> I'd probably change it to "*I bought an amp that was too expensive for me, and now I can't afford shipping. I guess i'll blame the manufacturer for my problems instead, it's cheaper*"


I was serious though. The title is completely inappropriate. I will say that Butler's online warranty is vague on shipping. The manual, also online says this:









Policies should be clarified, but the OP shouldn't have made assumptions either.



MidnightCE said:


> Don't be so shellfish.


Hilarious.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



Rudeboy said:


> I was serious though. The title is completely inappropriate. I will say that Butler's online warranty is vague on shipping. The manual, also online says this:


Seem's pretty clear to me. Friction, sounds like you were obligated to cover the shipping according to the warranty. 

So being that you weren't willing to comply with warranty terms, how can you claim they "cheated" you?

I agree that the title is inappropriate. Hopefully the mod's will change it. To keep all party's happy, maybe make it "Problems with a Butler amp"

or to confuse the issue, make it "The Butler did it with a candlestick in the study"


----------



## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Well I'll throw my 2 cents in. If a warranty stipulation is that customer pays shipping, so be it. But if its a DOA issue, the person shouldn't be out a single penny.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



MidnightCE said:


> Well I'll throw my 2 cents in. If a warranty stipulation is that customer pays shipping, so be it. But if its a DOA issue, the person shouldn't be out a single penny.


Who determines if it was actually DOA though? I'd say butler does. The only way to do that would be to ship the amp back to them, and I doubt they'll pay the shipping up front.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Guys, 

Let other overseas buyers judge,now it all depends on the them,if they want to risk and purchase an amp that has a possibility of malfunction,defect,poor qc etc.whatever it may be or .its really their choice ,the exact same choice i made.

my mistake was i didnt think ahead..Well i fell for it.And you got to be in my shoes to feel it.

back and forth shipping is just a waste of money for me.Money doesnt grow on tress.I am happy with my new amp now.tested them and works well

so I rest my case.

Good Night


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> Guys,
> 
> Let other overseas buyers judge,now it all depends on the them,if they want to risk and purchase an amp that has a possibility of malfunction,defect,poor qc etc.whatever it may be or .its really their choice ,the exact same choice i made.
> 
> ...


My point is that you will run into this situation with any company that doesn't distribute in your country, and only has warranty centers in the US. Maybe next time only buy what's distributed there... just my $.02.

Also, what case did you rest? The one where you were wrong about who was responsible for shipping? Let other buyers oversea's judge for themselves whether it's wise to import a product if you are not prepared to deal with the addtional costs involved.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

i would also like to apologize for rude behaviour to some members here.I just want let this go now.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> My point is that you will run into this situation with any company that doesn't distribute in your country, and only has warranty centers in the US. Maybe next time only buy what's distributed there... just my $.02.


I agree with you on that.I bought Butler cos of its 5channel tube amp.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> i would also like to apologize for rude behaviour to some members here.I just want let this go now.


No worries on my end. I understand why you would be upset about the situation. I just still don't think it's right to say they "Cheated" you by adhering to their stated policy's. 

I have mostly thick skin though, so it's all good on my end, no hard feelings here.


----------



## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> Who determines if it was actually DOA though? I'd say butler does. The only way to do that would be to ship the amp back to them, and I doubt they'll pay the shipping up front.


I would agree that it is reasonable for the buyer to front the shipping charges on a supposed DOA item. If the item is found to be fine, or damaged by an install error, shipping charges would not be refunded. If item is found to be defective, then shipping charges should be compensated.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



MidnightCE said:


> I would agree that it is reasonable for the buyer to front the shipping charges on a supposed DOA item. If the item is found to be fine, or damaged by an install error, shipping charges would not be refunded. If item is found to be defective, then shipping charges should be compensated.


I'd agree, even though this is outside of their policy, it would be doing right by the customer. They would obviously need to see the amp for determination of fault.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> No worries on my end. I understand why you would be upset about the situation. I just still don't think it's right to say they "Cheated" you by adhering to their stated policy's.
> 
> I have mostly thick skin though, so it's all good on my end, no hard feelings here.


Well i felt cheated cos the amp was 66% funtional.But on the other hand, I am very much satisfied with my audison amp now.If this didnt happen i wouldnt know that.

Thanks all Case closed 

Good Night


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

I know how you feel, I came accross such problem also, because the seller used the wrong method to send me the items(by sea not by air) which ended up I have to wait for 2 months and argue with him....
As the item priced at 1099 + shipping of atleast 1++, after currency exchange for Thailand will be 42+++ without tax yet.....
If buying from Ebay(my favorite place to buy from overseas), those sellers really dare to declare the items very low(so I no need to pay tax), but will a company like Butler do like this also?


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> Well i felt cheated cos the amp was 66% funtional.But on the other hand, I am very much satisfied with my audison amp now.If this didnt happen i wouldnt know that.
> 
> Thanks all Case closed
> 
> Good Night


We all understand the disappointment of getting a new item that wasn't 100% but you handled it with all the class of an infant who's pacifier was taken away. You weren't cheated because Butler had no problems fixing the amp under warranty, you just had to get it to them. You CHOSE not to send it to them. If I buy from them and I get a bad amp I have to send it in and pay for shipping the same as you. 

No one MADE you buy from the States. This is a prime example of why it's sometimes better to buy locally.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> Well i felt cheated cos the amp was 66% funtional.But on the other hand, I am very much satisfied with my audison amp now.If this didnt happen i wouldnt know that.
> 
> Thanks all Case closed
> 
> Good Night


You sound like Officer Barbrady from South Park. Nothing to see here, case closed! lol


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



kyheng said:


> I know how you feel, I came accross such problem also, because the seller used the wrong method to send me the items(by sea not by air) which ended up I have to wait for 2 months and argue with him....
> As the item priced at 1099 + shipping of atleast 1++, after currency exchange for Thailand will be 42+++ without tax yet.....
> If buying from Ebay(my favorite place to buy from overseas), those sellers really dare to declare the items very low(so I no need to pay tax), but will a company like Butler do like this also?



Import and govt taxes should be 28% ++


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> even if you say repair you still need to put a value and here the customs department are very strict.alot of paperwork and running here and there.you still have to pay the import tax on the value of the product.



Right but that's only supposed to be applied once, to make up for the lost sales taxes. You shouldn't have ot pay it twice. If you do...well let's just say I'd move.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> lets see if you face the problem one day
> 
> you get a new amp for a 1000 bucks direct from the manufaturer and not a dealer,after you receive it,brand new, out of the box,its dead...Wow


The difference being what exactly? Whether you get it from a dealer or the manufacturer it's still new. Things don't magically break once they sit on a dealers shelf vs. the manufacturers. They all go through the same QC and then get boxed up. You're just as likely to get something broken from one as the other. 



> the manufacturer tell you to send it back to him to fix it but refuse to pay half the shipping .He doesnt stand behind his own product and his company reputation.even small companies state if there is a problem they pay half shipping and repair is free.


Show me that. Even ONCE. NO ONE pays return shipping for warranty repairs. 



> Let me remind you this product i bought direct from BUtler not a dealer.if they dont stand behind their own product? who will?think about it.
> 
> Its easy for you to say cos you are not in my shoes


If something breaks on your car under warranty do they come to your house and tow it to the dealership for you?


----------



## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Well, that's cheap, mine is around 40%, why people from South East Asia like to buy from US?
1. Because most brands are come from US
2. Sellers here are blood suckers, A JL Audio E series amp can sell for USD1000
3. Some items are very rare here


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



MidnightCE said:


> Don't be so shellfish.


One of the very best comebacks I've seen on DIYMA. You sir, win the razor sharp wit award for the day. Congrats



friction said:


> Guys,
> 
> Let other overseas buyers judge,now it all depends on the them,if they want to risk and purchase an amp that has a possibility of malfunction,defect,poor qc etc.whatever it may be or .its really their choice ,the exact same choice i made.
> 
> ...


Sorry for your loss....so...how much you selling the TDB for



MidnightCE said:


> I would agree that it is reasonable for the buyer to front the shipping charges on a supposed DOA item. If the item is found to be fine, or damaged by an install error, shipping charges would not be refunded. If item is found to be defective, then shipping charges should be compensated.


You see? There's always a solution.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I'd agree, even though this is outside of their policy, it would be doing right by the customer. They would obviously need to see the amp for determination of fault.


I'm sure this thread will knowck some sense into them. They'll probably start sending airplanes out to every tube listener, be it hustler or TDB

Friction you're cool. Sorry **** happens. I'm glad I've never had to ship my **** to Italy cuz I'd do what you did...except I'd give details.

You're pal T-Bear, though. He's kind of a putz


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

hows abt $700 for the tube driver.you can claim to butler for me

you must excuse t-bear,he doesnt speak english that well.I apologize on his behalf


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> hows abt $700 for the tube driver.you can claim to butler for me
> 
> you must excuse t-bear,he doesnt speak english that well.I apologize on his behalf


**** that. he's a moron. I excused his english for a while. It was his existence that was getting on my nerves.


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

BTW, it seems that profanity screws up googles ability to pull this stuff up. I don't think this thread should be so readily available to the general public so^^^^^taken care of.


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> hows abt $700 for the tube driver.you can claim to butler for me
> 
> you must excuse t-bear,he doesnt speak english that well.I apologize on his behalf


how would I claim to butler....didn't someone's cotton pickin hands get in there to "fix it"

ok....I'm done.




wait....$700 that's a $300 loss, why not just pay for shipping at surely cheaper of a price than $300 loss, not to mention that you'd be paying shipping on the return if anything were broken...right?


ok. now I'm done. probably.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> BTW, it seems that profanity screws up googles ability to pull this stuff up. I don't think this thread should be so readily available to the general public so^^^^^taken care of.


are you suggesting to delete this thread?


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

What really cracks me up about this is t-bear's and fixtion's assertation that Butler sold them a bum amp on purpose.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> how would I claim to butler....didn't someone's cotton pickin hands get in there to "fix it"
> 
> ok....I'm done.
> 
> ...


i wont use the amp again i am just scared if anything else goes wrong.just want to sell it now.dont want to risk back and forth shipping.if i sell to you at a loss,you can claim to butler.i would probably be paying the same for back and forth shipping.so might aswell sell it.You are in the US and can easily claim to butler.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

1) If the amp IS bad Butler will pay return shipping, not you...well they would have if you hadn't had someone else try to "fix it".
2) The receipt is in your name. Butler might be a hard ass about that. Some companies are.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



quality_sound said:


> What really cracks me up about this is t-bear's and fixtion's assertation that Butler sold them a bum amp on purpose.


i am sorry but i jst feel really down.I remember mentioning to butler on and on ,to please test the amps before shipping,Instead he went on and on about his experience and how he worked with professional musicians and that he is their right hand man.

And after i claimed that the amplifier had a problem he avoided me.I had to Push some one named Melody to pass the call to him.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



quality_sound said:


> 1) If the amp IS bad Butler will pay return shipping, not you...well they would have if you hadn't had someone else try to "fix it".
> 2) The receipt is in your name. Butler might be a hard ass about that. Some companies are.


The amp is working now ,and i want to sell it.anyone interested please do let me know.it will be difficult for me to sell it here.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> The amp is working now ,and i want to sell it.anyone interested please do let me know.it will be difficult for me to sell it here.


You still never told us what the actual problem was with it.


----------



## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Somthing smells MIGHTY fishy about this whole thing... and I don't think it's the shellfish.


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> are you suggesting to delete this thread?


Nope. I took care of it by cussing. Google will filter it out...somehow. I'm not really sure but it changes the order of search results.



friction said:


> i am sorry but i jst feel really down.I remember mentioning to butler on and on ,to please test the amps before shipping,Instead he went on and on about his experience and how he worked with professional musicians and that he is their right hand man.
> 
> And after i claimed that the amplifier had a problem he avoided me.I had to Push some one named Melody to pass the call to him.


So you think Mr B himself should deal with you?!?!? An admin person isn't good it has to be butler himself? I'm sorry but I'm going to need your coordinates. I'm pretty sure Darwin would agree with my assesment to just handle this once and for all.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> You still never told us what the actual problem was with it.


well i dont really know ,but my techician friend explained me this way,he said there 2 transistors that failed and replaced and the power supply for the tube was not operational.so he had to fix that part too


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

weren't you paying attention? T-bear told us...I get confused...who are we talking to now?


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> Nope. I took care of it by cussing. Google will filter it out...somehow. I'm not really sure but it changes the order of search results.
> 
> 
> 
> So you think Mr B himself should deal with you?!?!? An admin person isn't good it has to be butler himself? I'm sorry but I'm going to need your coordinates. I'm pretty sure Darwin would agree with my assesment to just handle this once and for all.


all i said was i deal with mr b from the start ,so it would be best to speak with him all the way.international cost money 2 right?


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> weren't you paying attention? T-bear told us...I get confused...who are we talking to now?


T-bear told you what ,i dont get it?


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



T-BEAR said:


> Thank You Friend,Friction amp already fixed now.transistor failure.friction told me. 2 channels not working.


well?


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> well?


yea so?The amp is fixed thats what i am saying.what i meant was you can claim to butler for me,and show him that these were the things fixed.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Ok sorry for the confusion let me make myself clear.

The Butler amplifier has been fixed by my technician friend in thailand.
Due to my upset, i already bought an audison.Now i want to sell this amplifier if some one is interested.

There were jsut 2 transistors replaced and some tube powersupply.if the unit is not in proper working order ,you can repair in the USA.


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

dude....the question was "what's wrong with it?" I said the other dud said it was this, you said the other dude said what? I said he said this.....coordinates please. Don't take it personally. It is for the good of the gene pool.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



quality_sound said:


> 1) If the amp IS bad Butler will pay return shipping, not you...well they would have if you hadn't had someone else try to "fix it".
> 2) The receipt is in your name. Butler might be a hard ass about that. Some companies are.


Warranty specifically states that it isn't transferable.


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

you're seriously trying to sell it to us?








is this the punchline to the whole thing? I swear another sub-90 is born every minute.


----------



## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> you're seriously trying to sell it to us?


What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> dude....the question was "what's wrong with it?" I said the other dud said it was this, you said the other dude said what? I said he said this.....coordinates please. Don't take it personally. It is for the good of the gene pool.


How can i explain when i am not a technician?1st 2 dead channels now the 2 dead channels have been fixed to 2 working channels by replacing transistors and a tube power supply.thats how my technician explained me.in simple thai language actually.I translated to english


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> you're seriously trying to sell it to us?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


dude you asked me how much i want to sell it?dont twist and turn


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

i was kidding....coordinates. I can have this taken care of from my office. I've decided to take out most of the island. Will that take care of T-bear, too?


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Man you asked me remember?

i do want to sell it now ,it depends who wants to buy it?you asked me ,i assumed you interested to help out and since you are in the USA,you can easily get butler to fix it if my technician didnt do a good job fixing it.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Ok just let me know if anyone is interested to buy it off me.and can close this topic.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



Rudeboy said:


> Warranty specifically states that it isn't transferable.


That's what I thought. So him saying "you can repair it in the states" is bunk.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



> Most of this is arguing JUST to ensure you can argue...and you're really doing a dissapointing job based on the amount of syllables in your username.


actually, that is what you think

I am arguing to ensure the principle of proper customer service is adhered to.

I am not the only one pushing the 'if it was a DOA butler should be on the hook' position, in fact, you yourself agreed with this statement:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by MidnightCE
> I would agree that it is reasonable for the buyer to front the shipping charges on a supposed DOA item. If the item is found to be fine, or damaged by an install error, shipping charges would not be refunded. If item is found to be defective, then shipping charges should be compensated.





> I'd agree, even though this is outside of their policy, it would be doing right by the customer. They would obviously need to see the amp for determination of fault.


Furthermore, simply by selling direct from the distributor to and end user overseas they have gone against their policy, therefore none of their policies hold much water.

I agree with rudeboy, if they were going to sell this amp they should have stipulated beforehand any possible issues due to warranty maintenance.. however, DOA is hardly the same things as warranty...

I can't paste your comment in for some reason but here it is abridged...
"we dont really know what happened but I'd bet some lines were left out..."

That is the lynchpin of your argument, assumptions. I take friction at his word, though I don't like to see him bashing butler, he should be compensated in a fair manner. 
I base my argument on the facts as he provided them. Being that you nor I are actually there to see what exactly happened his 'facts' are the only ones we can base our argument on, though I doubt we would be arguing the point when we in fact agree.

Boosted.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> Ok just let me know if anyone is interested to buy it off me.


if it breaks during shipping will you cover shipping back to you? Will you fix it? Will you send it back to me for free?


----------



## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



quality_sound said:


> if it breaks during shipping will you cover shipping back to you? Will you fix it? Will you send it back to me for free?


Now that's funny!!!


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



quality_sound said:


> That's what I thought. So him saying "you can repair it in the states" is bunk.


Even if warranty is not transferable,who ever buys this amp at $700 can spare some change and pay butler for repair.Right?I am sure butler wont refuse to repair his own amp,you just have to pay them.Buy it ,have a listen ,if there something wrong with the sound you could always send it to butler to get it fixed.


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



BoostedNihilist said:


> actually, that is what you think
> 
> I am arguing to ensure the principle of proper customer service is adhered to.
> 
> ...


ok. I don't care. sorry. I said to pick a better topic. If you take the tone you took, expect the reactions you got. I get those reactions all the time so I know when its my fault. He had a valid point. You had a valid point to but were very adolescent in your approach. That's why I said you'd be a handful. Not because of anything other than the stubborn high-school boorishness in your response. There is more than just words strung together in these here annals. There are sentences. Your sentences made you seem, well, like a dick. The argument was simple. It seemed FISHY to bash butler, boast hustler, buy butler, bash butler. I still find logic problems with it but its not my money.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



quality_sound said:


> if it breaks during shipping will you cover shipping back to you? Will you fix it? Will you send it back to me for free?


Since this is already a used amp and the maufaturer is sitting in your country you can ask him to fix it.i dont mind selling it at $700.free one way shipping


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> Even if warranty is not transferable,who ever buys this amp at $700 can spare some change and pay butler for repair.Right?I am sure butler wont refuse to repair his own amp,you just have to pay them.Buy it ,have a listen ,if there something wrong with the sound you could always send it to butler to get it fixed.


And be at the same price as a new one. 

The point was you're asking us to do what you refused to do. You've just taken Butler's stance and are only offering to do what he offered for you. Less in fact, as he offered to fix it for you. You won't even do that for the buyer. You want NO responsibility at all. 

Maybe I'll start a thread and say how you're cheating us.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Come on what do you say? ONE WAY FREE SHIPPING that makes the amp cost $600 maybe less...

I am a man of my word.

BoostedNihilist I really thankyou for you support,but i feel we should just close this subject,its just to difficult.back to back the customer is the victim.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



quality_sound said:


> And be at the same price as a new one.
> 
> The point was you're asking us to do what you refused to do. You've just taken Butler's stance and are only offering to do what he offered for you. Less in fact, as he offered to fix it for you. You won't even do that for the buyer. You want NO responsibility at all.
> 
> Maybe I'll start a thread and say how you're cheating us.


dude think about what you are saying.like i said back to back its the customer whos is the victim.now i send it back to butler and he says still its not his fault?though i know the truth.its my word against his.Back to back it would be still me who has lost the money.


----------



## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> Come on what do you say? ONE WAY FREE SHIPPING that makes the amp cost $600 maybe less...
> 
> I am a man of my word.
> 
> BoostedNihilist I really thankyou for you support,but i feel we should just close this subject,its just to difficult.back to back the customer is the victim.


Even if I wanted your amp it's been tampered with.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

I bought this amplifier @$1090


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



quality_sound said:


> Even if I wanted your amp it's been tampered with.


back to back customer is the victim.I am glad you got the point
Case closed.Bye


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



> ok. I don't care. sorry. I said to pick a better topic.


Pretty arrogant of you... Why don't you go pick a better topic?



> If you take the tone you took, expect the reactions you got. I get those reactions all the time so I know when its my fault.


Hmm, perhaps a tad bit of introspection is in order...



> He had a valid point. You had a valid point to but were very adolescent in your approach.


My first post in this thread was anything but combative, your reply on the other hand was. In case you need a refresher you called my well founded moral position ludicrous. Then you jumped in with hypotheticals based on supposed facts. You sir, are the one who took the adolescent approach.. 



> That's why I said you'd be a handful. Not because of anything other than the stubborn high-school boorishness in your response.


I could say the same of you.. in fact, I do!



> There is more than just words strung together in these here annals. There are sentences


Yes, and perhaps if you read them you would understand the argument you were trying to make... 

I didn't take a tone, you certainly did by bringing in veiled personal attacks. I just put mine out there for everyone to see. I have no problem with my position, as we both actually agree on it I am happy in the knowledge that we are both right,however predicated on my logic not yours.


You need to grow up my friend.


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



quality_sound said:


> And be at the same price as a new one.
> 
> The point was you're asking us to do what you refused to do. You've just taken Butler's stance and are only offering to do what he offered for you. Less in fact, as he offered to fix it for you. You won't even do that for the buyer. You want NO responsibility at all.
> 
> Maybe I'll start a thread and say how you're cheating us.


ROFL!!!



friction said:


> I bought this amplifier @$1090


You got screwed buddy! Ehh, I'm just kidding.


----------



## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



BoostedNihilist said:


> Pretty arrogant of you... Why don't you go pick a better topic?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are correct. It was the second post that was a little more agressive than the situation seemed to dictate. My only point was that at that point (as you were prattling on about finances) that I called irrelevance. Not BS, just irrelevance.

Ok. In order.

Arrogant...sure. Why not? Based on the carefully selected terminology used, I already stated that you'd be a handful because you , seemingly, are willing to argue at any cost. The two of you could have discussed things but it isn't what I saw. I saw an a post, a rebuyttal, and an attack. I like to go after the attacker. It makes me feel better about my propensity to argue meaningless topics to the death

Introspection was actually applied and stated...so yeah. In order. Thanks.

I'll readily agree that your tone stuck me as childish and we all know that fire is best fought with fire. But it was the second post. You are correct, IMO, that your first post was perfectly reasonable.

Umm...I know you are but what am I? I'm rubber you're glue...

Seems like an awful lot of work, especially while dealing with the likes of the sub-90's in this thread.....wait..what? If I would read them I would understand the argument I'm trying to make...I don't follow. Sorry. I understand EVERY point I try to make...right or wrong, I, at least, understand them.

I offered no veiled attacks. I rarely veil my attacks. I'm a pretty honest guy. A little misguided at times, I'll agree, but not one to smile so as to hide the knife. You took a tone. The second post you made had you rattled. I understand. It happens. I meant no personal attacks. I don't know you personally. I attacked your statement, or rather, the way you made the statement.
so we agreed based on your logic? ok.

I keep hearing that. 

Again, I don't care. Pick a better topic. I didn't mean to offend but yer panties were twisting so I offered my thumb. I'm willing to argue but I'm bored with this one. I offered you the chance to pick a topic but in all fairness, it was a joke. I was just tired of this guy. If you prefer I declare you victorious that's ok with me. Good luck.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

I just received an email from a former Butler Audio Distributor in Asia.and are as follows.

Hello Andy,

Once again, we regret your misfortune.Your best option would be, to ship back your amplifier to get it fixed.This was one of the few reasons why we had to stop distributing Butler Audio Amplfiers.Below you will find a Direct and Detailed explaination from butler audio regarding their policy,terms and conditions.I hope it helps. Good Luck 

Best,

XXXXX





Date: Tue, I Mar 2005 08:04:59-0800( PST)
From: "Butler Audio" <[email protected]> 

Subject: Re: Fwd: Tube driver Blue

To: "XXXX XXXXX" <[email protected]>



Yes, we could sell you spare parts, but it will be almost impossible for you or technicians there to repair the units. As a protection to my technology I absolutely will not release schematics of my products. Once released, they may be copied and as has happened many times in the past, my work will be plagiarised.



We know that others cannot properly repair the units. This is based upon experience in the field with Japan and other countries. From time to time a tube has failed, but many times the attempted repair has caused more problems than if the PCB were simply returned to us for recycling. For your information, we never had a power transistor failure yet, no power supplies failed, etc. The only problems world wide were a few bad tubes and once and in while a loose internal connection. But as I check each one personally, repairs are rare. Of course I would cooperate with you on any specific problem. If you wish, I could arrange for you to purchase separate PCB assemblies which you could swap out, but great care must be taken when doing this as I have my own techniques of assembly, etc. Also I cannot explain how to properly bias the units when tubes are replaced as I spend over 30 minutes on each unit to temperature map and zero in the proper bias setting. Also I add a few discrete trimmer parts (resistors, etc) at various places, and no 2 units are exactly the same due to the fact that no 2 tubes are the exactly the same.



Ultimately my policy of non release of schematics and in-house repairs ensures that the quality and integrity of my products is maintained and my technology is protected as much as possible.



Sincerely,



BK


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

I am sure The distributor must have had more problems with Butler Audio.

I think i would agree with Awc here and to change the title from 

"Butler Cheated me " TO "Problems with Butler Amplifiers Overseas"


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> I bought this amplifier @$1090


"! OUCH !" 

Plus repairs, shipping & handling, biasing adjusting the little unknowns to make it sound the way it does

He stated we have had problems with tubes  [ known problem ]!


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



a$$hole said:


> "! OUCH !"
> 
> Plus repairs, shipping & handling, biasing adjusting the little unknowns to make it sound the way it does
> 
> He stated we have had problems with tubes  [ known problem ]!


yea ouch,lol

have any suggestions on a good subwoofer amp?


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Something local


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



a$$hole said:


> Something local


i can get audiosystem, rockford ,jlaudio , audison , fusion.


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> i can get audiosystem, rockford ,jlaudio , audison , fusion.


Why not audison since you already have one? 

BTW, it seems to me that Butler made some sense as to why he wanted the amp shipped back to be serviced. I bet you would have been happy with the end result had you done that. It really is a shame...


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

I'll bet it is packaged a lil better when it comes back 

what's $1500.00 amongst dealers and customers


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



a$$hole said:


> I'll bet it is packaged a lil better when it comes back
> 
> what's $1500.00 amongst dealers and customers


Not that much when you were already willing to spend $1100 on one amp.


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> Why not audison since you already have one?
> 
> BTW, it seems to me that Butler made some sense as to why he wanted the amp shipped back to be serviced. I bet you would have been happy with the end result had you done that. It really is a shame...


I understand ,i should have done just that and sent the amp back to butler.But I dont think It is effcient for interantional customers to invest in them.I mean lets be open about this,after reading butlers email to his distributor.they had t ship back each amplifier for repair,doesnt matter how if it dead out of the box due to the tubes ,or used.

Imagine this 

you are an overseas customer and using a butler for say 3 months,you deceide to go on a long drive ,by bad luck a tube wears out.you dont have music in your car.he takes it back to the shop he bought it from.the shop calls the distributor,and the distributor says we have to ship it back to bulter as they cant repair them.followed by the time period of shipping back and forth + crazy shipping prices.this doesnt make sense.

I dont blame butler,now i understand he wants to protect his technology.

But on the other hand dont you think is just like its my way or the high way?

or

Buy at your own risk that kind of thing?

His distributor did say this was one of the reasons they stop dealing with butler right?

I think butler should be more easy going


I was thinking on a jl audio sub amp or mmats. what do think wrx?


----------



## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> I understand ,i should have done just that and sent the amp back to butler.But I dont think It is effcient for interantional customers to invest in them.I mean lets be open about this,after reading butlers email to his distributor.they had t ship back each amplifier for repair,doesnt matter how if it dead out of the box due to the tubes ,or used.
> 
> Imagine this
> 
> ...


Eh, I don't think he has as many problems with them as you might think. He was trying to communicate with a distributor, and let them know that he's never seen that problem before. All amps can have one or two go bad, but usually for a similar problem, and generally it's a design issue. He was saying that his amps generally have no problems with power supplies trasistors, and that the delicate tubes are the only thing he generally see's any problems with. That's just the nature of trying to run a tube amp in an automotive environment. Tubes supposedly don't like vibration, guess what automobiles generate a ton of? lol. I would't have looked a tube amp for the car unless I was prepared to deal with issues. (even then i'll stick to Solid State) 

JL makes a solid amp, great crossover controls and flexibility. Great input setups (rca's fixed to the case, adjustable input voltage capability). I don't have a ton of experience with MMAT's, but they have a good reputation as far as I can tell. You should be able to get an LRX1400 for just as cheap as either of those, and it's rated to make some good power. Any of those would be a good choice.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> I am sure The distributor must have had more problems with Butler Audio.
> 
> I think i would agree with Awc here and to change the title from
> 
> "Butler Cheated me " TO "Problems with Butler Amplifiers Overseas"


In the early days when marshall Amplifiers became popular in america it was discovered that a good percentage of the EL34/6CA7 tubes were not making it over the pond very well, They switched over to a more robust 6550/KT88 to keep the amps from being DOA, problem was that they would get here and the tube bottle would be fine, the internals would be short, filament comes on, plate voltage and POW, there went your grid resistors and bias supply 

a 6550 CAN work in that design but 2 problems arose, the EL34 sound a ****-ton better, it broke up better, it has better characteristics when driven into clipping, everyone hated the 6550 and had them switched over, Zack Wylde is one of the FEW that still specs the 6550 design. Was that Marshalls only mistake? Nope, they tried 5881's too, many found them to sound equally ****ty without the "british sound" the JCM900 series had a choice of 5881 or EL34, some went witht eh 5881 due to marketing, damn I changed a bunch over to EL34 biasing right quick 

Just a little history, it happens to everyone at some point in time


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> Eh, I don't think he has as many problems with them as you might think. He was trying to communicate with a distributor, and let them know that he's never seen that problem before. All amps can have one or two go bad, but usually for a similar problem, and generally it's a design issue. He was saying that his amps generally have no problems with power supplies trasistors, and that the delicate tubes are the only thing he generally see's any problems with. That's just the nature of trying to run a tube amp in an automotive environment. Tubes supposedly don't like vibration, guess what automobiles generate a ton of? lol. I would't have looked a tube amp for the car unless I was prepared to deal with issues. (even then i'll stick to Solid State)
> 
> JL makes a solid amp, great crossover controls and flexibility. Great input setups (rca's fixed to the case, adjustable input voltage capability). I don't have a ton of experience with MMAT's, but they have a good reputation as far as I can tell. You should be able to get an LRX1400 for just as cheap as either of those, and it's rated to make some good power. Any of those would be a good choice.



lrx yes one brand will be look really nice,all my friends here were saying Jlaudio.they do look solid ,havent tried them.celestra has power sub amps to but i guess i will just stick with the jl audio or audison.will keep you posted


----------



## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> In the early days when marshall Amplifiers became popular in america it was discovered that a good percentage of the EL34/6CA7 tubes were not making it over the pond very well, They switched over to a more robust 6550/KT88 to keep the amps from being DOA, problem was that they would get here and the tube bottle would be fine, the internals would be short, filament comes on, plate voltage and POW, there went your grid resistors and bias supply
> 
> a 6550 CAN work in that design but 2 problems arose, the EL34 sound a ****-ton better, it broke up better, it has better characteristics when driven into clipping, everyone hated the 6550 and had them switched over, Zack Wylde is one of the FEW that still specs the 6550 design. Was that Marshalls only mistake? Nope, they tried 5881's too, many found them to sound equally ****ty without the "british sound" the JCM900 series had a choice of 5881 or EL34, some went witht eh 5881 due to marketing, damn I changed a bunch over to EL34 biasing right quick
> 
> Just a little history, it happens to everyone at some point in time


Chad you know alot about tubes yummy.

does a tube preamp help solidstate amps to sound better?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

I can vouch for JL too, BUT I WOULD CERTAINLY CHECK FOR LOCAL (domestic) SERVICE CENTERS


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> Chad you know alot about tubes yummy.
> 
> does a tube preamp help solidstate amps to sound better?


I really don't think so, hell, I run SS preamps and tube power in one room at home 

For me the "tube sound" is the way the power tubes, transformers, and speakers work in harmony. I sincerely believe that's where the magic lies.


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> I really don't think so, hell, I run SS preamps and tube power in one room at home
> 
> For me the "tube sound" is the way the power tubes, transformers, and speakers work in harmony. I sincerely believe that's where the magic lies.


i really want to try a real tube power amp.i was thinking of milbert or hss for my next project.i think i can find a milbert distibutor in singapore but not hss


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

I'd always heard that tube's made a bigger difference in the pre-amp section. Something to do with adding to the signal prior to the amp.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

There are pics in this thread from march eighteenth [ 3/18/08 ].

If you just want to drool a little 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33418


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> In the early days when marshall Amplifiers became popular in america it was discovered that a good percentage of the EL34/6CA7 tubes were not making it over the pond very well, They switched over to a more robust 6550/KT88 to keep the amps from being DOA, problem was that they would get here and the tube bottle would be fine, the internals would be short, filament comes on, plate voltage and POW, there went your grid resistors and bias supply
> 
> a 6550 CAN work in that design but 2 problems arose, the EL34 sound a ****-ton better, it broke up better, it has better characteristics when driven into clipping, everyone hated the 6550 and had them switched over, Zack Wylde is one of the FEW that still specs the 6550 design. Was that Marshalls only mistake? Nope, they tried 5881's too, many found them to sound equally ****ty without the "british sound" the JCM900 series had a choice of 5881 or EL34, some went witht eh 5881 due to marketing, damn I changed a bunch over to EL34 biasing right quick
> 
> Just a little history, it happens to everyone at some point in time


6v6 +12ax7 and the (drawing a blank) rectifier tube with an original hammond output transformer FTMF(pure blood American)Win!!!



friction said:


> lrx yes one brand will be look really nice,all my friends here were saying Jlaudio.they do look solid ,havent tried them.celestra has power sub amps to but i guess i will just stick with the jl audio or audison.will keep you posted


I don't think you need to spend that much money on a sub amp Friction. Like I said, I agree with spending tons on amps (why I chimed in in the first place, to defend overspenders everywhere) but not on sub amps. I have $4K worth of amps but only $200 on the sub amp (used Arc 1500). Go for reliability and raw power. MUCHO WATTSO FOR SUBBO 



friction said:


> Chad you know alot about tubes yummy.
> 
> does a tube preamp help solidstate amps to sound better?


You and I could get along with these types of questions. I'll order you a milbert if you hook me up with a Celestra preamp...oh that would be F'n sweet. Better yet, send the 6 channel HSS Tube Preamp + External DAC and I'll buy your TDB

You're going to run into friction...hehehe...on this subject because of the over-all proepensity to reduce sound quality. Tubes are microphonic, an extra (almost useless) break in the signal path, and often of no use at all...like TDB's...sorry. If you were going to get a tube amp...get a tube amp. 

Preamps however, have utility that can be otherwise used, as for the need for tubes in them...not so much because of the before mentioned problems. A really well made tube premap with great specs, reliability and low S/N...I've been asking the same question for a year now. IT;s a real big step to take when the crowd is so divided on the subject. I will say, if you are decided on anything, it will bug you no matter what. So might as well go with it. 

I like that you went with Audison. A great reliable amp. Now you can add the tube Pre and get many of the supposed benefits of having a full tube amp. This will be better answered by others but there is a ton of reading info on www.milbert.com whcih seems to make good stuff. Since I'm a sinfoni whore, if I were to go tubes, I think I would need to stay Italian. Different people are weird in different ways. My girl friend is Italian, my amps are Italian, my dream is to open an Italian grill someday.....

To bring the the rest of this thread to closure, I'm sorry about you're issues. I think that you should stay with the TDB that you had. If you were considering going 5.1, it's obvious you aren't going with KISS so you'll need extra channels someday...probably. Now that you're looking for a sub channel (and even considered Celestra for a sub amp) why not use the amps you have? There is no reason why we can't be peaceful now that we understand each other.

So why don't you tell us what your plan is, and how many channels you are wnting tube coloration on. 

If you are going for all out SQ, 6 channels max (for a 3-way front stage) but usually 2-channels have made sense to me. Still I hav'nt taken the plunge.

Right now I'm trying to decide between ditching my deck getting a Denon for an Optical in and out, adding an HSS external DAC + HSS 6-channel preamp to 3 2 channels Sinfoni's....and having a second kid:blush:


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> i really want to try a real tube power amp.i was thinking of milbert or hss for my next project.i think i can find a milbert distibutor in singapore but not hss


HSS is going to run close to an annual salary for probably more than 80% of the world.

It's the ONLY all tube class a amp on the market.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



a$$hole said:


> There are pics in this thread from march eighteenth [ 3/18/08 ].
> 
> If you just want to drool a little
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33418


yeah, I posted that once too. It is truly a work of art.

Hey, I can get you the Sinfoni Desiderio. It isn't tube but it is one of (I think 10...30) ever made. True solid state marvel. a $14,000 amp. I can score it for you for around $5-7k. They have a lifetime waranty and no I don't think you'd get to cash in on it at that half price. 

I mean hell, we're fantasizing right? I'd pick the Desiderio any day of the week over that HSS amp....using the HSS preamp of course. 

You just can't argue with the the construction of some companies that are building the best stuff they can with old school, bullet proof technology. Unfortunately, in a car, tubes don't really seem bullet proof.

Friction, there is a guy that hand builds in your area, I think. Lumane? I can find it if you want. Lumanew....I dunno. Gimme a few minutes. I think you can talk to this guy directly and he's in your neck of the woods.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> I'd always heard that tube's made a bigger difference in the pre-amp section. Something to do with adding to the signal prior to the amp.


It all really depends on how the tube is run, just lkie the recent op-amp debate. If the tube is simply providing unity gain and lit up with a flipping LED then I see no use to go thru the hassle, even swapping out for uber expensive high end dtubes at this point is like splitting hairs. BUT if the tube is a true gain stage such as in guitar, microphone, and phono preamplification then yes I can see your point. 

But I still hold true to the fact that tubes really shine when being bullied around by a transformer/speaker combo, the reactance and lack of tolerance, to me, is what gives a tube amp it's signature sound. The tube in a preamp design is really not bullied, although some of the Varable Mu designs are pretty sweet.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Can someone change the title of the thread now that even the OP agree's it was a bad title?


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> 6v6 +12ax7 and the (drawing a blank) rectifier tube with an original hammond output transformer FTMF(pure blood American)Win!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...






I alread purchased the audison vrx direct six and this morning bought in my friends audison Thesis(used) but still good condition 

now i am looking for subamp.arc I have to ask around, no distributors in my country.I know mtx dealer though.Or should i just go with JLaudio


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Ok, so you have 3 audisons, and now you're going to purchase a different sub amp? 

LRX1400 on ebay at $339.99 FTW!!!


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> Ok, so you have 3 audisons, and now you're going to purchase a different sub amp?
> 
> LRX1400 on ebay at $339.99 FTW!!!



ok here is my plan

The thesis for the tweeters and midrange
vrx6 direct

ch 1 and 2 midbass
ch 3 and 4 center mono
ch 5 and 6 rear 

Sub amp for dd subs.

Have you ever heard of exile?former pg guys.i can get those here.What do you think guys?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> Can someone change the title of the thread now that even the OP agree's it was a bad title?


Shall we start a poll?


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> Shall we start a poll?


chad you can change the title i am cool now


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

You are the op, what do you want it to be?


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> You are the op, what do you want it to be?


what do you suggest chad?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

I'm in such a cynical mood today that chosing a thread title would be a bad thing


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



friction said:


> what do you suggest chad?


I'd still like to throw in "The butler did it with the candlestick in the conservatory"


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> I'd still like to throw in "The butler did it with the candlestick in the conservatory"


Certainly an option


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

"Mr. Belvedere is an *******!!"


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



chad said:


> Certainly an option


Problems with Butler Amplifiers Overseas like awc said


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*

Tube Ampilifiers Don't Ship Well?


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> Tube Ampilifiers Don't Ship Well?


I second that


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



AWC said:


> Tube Ampilifiers Don't Ship Well?


Thirded!


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



MidnightCE said:


> "Mr. Belvedere is an *******!!"


And we have a good alternate.


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## friction (Apr 24, 2008)

*Re: Butler Cheated me*



WRX/Z28 said:


> And we have a good alternate.


lol


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## fatherfish (Oct 29, 2006)

I think tube amps not shipping well is relative. I've owned an SET tube amp for over 10 years and it's been shipped back and forth from FL. to Ill. twice (not including original purchase) and have never had a problem. I also buy tubes once or twice a year that get shipped and only ever had one bad tube. I credit good packing and strong build.

Jim


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

tube amps ship fine for places not involving...weird people.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

fatherfish said:


> I think tube amps not shipping well is relative. I've owned an SET tube amp for over 10 years and it's been shipped back and forth from FL. to Ill. twice (not including original purchase) and have never had a problem. I also buy tubes once or twice a year that get shipped and only ever had one bad tube. I credit good packing and strong build.
> 
> Jim


You take the tubes out when you ship it don't you? I hope


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

My HSS was fine in transit from Italy to here. Few of the screws that hold the plates around the tubes were loose...so tightened up with some Locktite and all is good. It was shipped with the tubes in the sockets...dunno why, but it made it here with out any problems to the tubes.


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## Nelson de Leon (May 24, 2005)

Great read. Can anybody help me out on how to adjust the bais after changing tubes... Threads perhaps...


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## borgs (Mar 29, 2007)

You guys are right!! Tube amps really dont shipped well.
Had a friend sent back a TRU7.2AT for refurbished and it came back with a broken tube.Glass all over the PCB board
Sad!


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## fatherfish (Oct 29, 2006)

chad said:


> You take the tubes out when you ship it don't you? I hope


Yes I always unscrew them to ship. Can't take any chance of loseing the magic smoke!


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## DaleCarter (Jan 3, 2008)

Tube guitar amps ship fine, often not in a case. Imagine a bar band guitarist moving his Marshall, Boogie or Fender all over creation in a packed gear trailer with the protection of a vinyul dust cover.

The chance of a small preamp tube getting damaged in shipping is nearly zero.


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## AWC (Mar 31, 2008)

DaleCarter said:


> Tube guitar amps ship fine, often not in a case. Imagine a bar band guitarist moving his Marshall, Boogie or Fender all over creation in a packed gear trailer with the protection of a vinyul dust cover.
> 
> The chance of a small preamp tube getting damaged in shipping is nearly zero.


that's what we said when we called BS. This is a rebadged conversation that isn't really about that. We changed the title to avoid further problems. If tubes were that bad, they probably wouldn't survive in a car at all...


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## Nelson de Leon (May 24, 2005)

I've been using tube amps in my personal delivery truck. It's a double cab canter. You can just imagine how stiff my suspension is. So far, been using it for more than 2 years. No problemo.


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## Nelson de Leon (May 24, 2005)

I came across our local electronics repair dude. He told me that pre-amp tubes don't have bias adjustments.


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