# IS LOW BASS  TRULY Non-DIRECTIONAL



## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

From all that I have read, low bass notes are suppose to be non-directional and not easily determinable as to the location of origin for frequencies below 80 Hz. This is what the general consensus has been from novices to experts over the years. With the advancement of today's technology, I have to disagree with the consensus. 

After making some further changes to my system, ( New Handmade ZR Midranges and Mini-DSP with Dirac Live as well as upgrading my measurement microphone from the Umik1 to the Umik-2 ) which has elevated the resolving power of the entire system as a whole, low bass frequencies now have precision pinpoint imaging. 

I believe the key is to tell your tuning computer to use the UMIK-2 as its default sound card while making measurement sweeps. Getting into the computer software and opening up 32 Bit and 192 Khz sampling rate has made for substantial improvements in making individual drivers blend seamlessly, getting Left channel / Right channel overall response curves almost identical, and taking advantage of the bass management feature of the Mini-DSP has left me speechless. ( BIG THANKS TO Ryan TRUTHUNTER who helped set up and remote tune the system ) 
The speaker locations and sound system itself has completely disappeared and the depth and realism just went off the charts. Pinpoint accurate bass imaging is now possible. 

I think the technology has now reached a point where Room Correction can fix issues with bass that have long been a problem. Such advances in technology gives the ability to attain detailed and articulate bass which images just like midrange and tweeter frequencies. It's truly amazing as to the advancement in our hobby which makes for amazingly accurate stereo reproduction.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

In vehicles, the localization is more a result of resonances and tactile feedback, OR in phase issues between sub/woofer.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

What you described means they are NOT localizable. If the sub is in the trunk and the bass sounds like it’s coming from the front stage then it is tuned well and the bass isn’t localizable to its actually location.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

captainobvious said:


> In vehicles, the localization is more a result of resonances and tactile feedback, OR in phase issues between sub/woofer.


This. any time you can pick out a subwoofer's location, you can guarantee it is caused by resonance, and occasionally being out of phase with the midbass drivers.


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## High Resolution Audio (Sep 12, 2014)

From reading the above comments, it seems the entire point that I was trying to make was missed. 

I'm not just describing normal up front bass. 

I'm talking about laser focused, razor sharp bass imaging. 

Precision pin point bass notes coming from a small quarter sized location well out front of the windshield that is extremely, tightly focused. 

This is what has taken place with the new changes to my system.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

High Resolution Audio said:


> From reading the above comments, it seems the entire point that I was trying to make was missed.
> 
> I'm not just describing normal up front bass.
> 
> ...


That illusion is possible because all of the other speakers are balanced correctly. When that happens the generic bass that doesn't sound like it's coming from anywhere specific now sounds like it's coming from the stage that was created by the other speakers. 

The fact that the subwoofer isn't physically in that spot means that the bass isn't localizable, since it's not localizable it can be placed correctly in the stage even thought that's not where the subwoofer physically resides.


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

High Resolution Audio said:


> From reading the above comments, it seems the entire point that I was trying to make was missed.
> 
> I'm not just describing normal up front bass.
> 
> ...


You are locating the higher frequency harmonics not the low bass notes original frequency.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

You will never have quarter-sized images at lower frequencies. Hell, most people struggle to get softball-sized, clean center images in the midrange lol


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Whens the next meet in Massachusetts? I wouldnt mind having a listen to that truck. 

Last time I checked though my subwoofer was still in the back. 🫣


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Sub bass should also be on the stage wherever it needs to be, not in one spot, tbh it sounds like you have a little bit of ‘in my head it sounds like this’ and psycho acoustics going on

as for remote tuning, it’s not possible to get a perfect tune remotely, if I show someone how to tune remotely (different from me doing a remote tune) I use different tracks and methods to illustrate what someone is listening for, but in reality it’s only as good as someone’s hearing and ability to pick things out is… plus everyone’s hearing is slightly different due to position of their ears in a car

I’ve lost count of the times I’ve listened to cars and the timing is way off or the passenger side drivers not so much pin point as it’s half the screen wide


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Also how high were you tuning to need a 192khz sample rate on a mic… asking for a friend 😉


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## Stoopalini (Apr 16, 2021)

High Resolution Audio said:


> From all that I have read, low bass notes are suppose to be non-directional and not easily determinable as to the location of origin for frequencies below 80 Hz. This is what the general consensus has been from novices to experts over the years. With the advancement of today's technology, I have to disagree with the consensus.
> 
> ...................................................
> 
> I think the technology has now reached a point where Room Correction can fix issues with bass that have long been a problem. Such advances in technology gives the ability to attain detailed and articulate bass which images just like midrange and tweeter frequencies. It's truly amazing as to the advancement in our hobby which makes for amazingly accurate stereo reproduction.


You're describing two different concepts here. The 1st one (low frequencies being omnidirectional) is a function of physics and biology. No matter of technological improvements will effect this, unless we get to the point of bioengineering for your hearing. The concept here is that the human ear & brain cannot locate the *source* of low frequencies. If you have a sub, and play a 30Hz tone from it, and there are no vibrations or harmonic resonance happening from the enclosure or anything around the enclosure ... you will not be able to close your eyes and tell from where the sound is originating.


The 2nd concept you're describing is related to leveraging technology to trick the brain into hearing the low frequency sounds coming from a specific, desired, location ... not the actual source. This is accomplished by tuning a system well, which causes your brain to locate the low frequency sounds as coming from the same place where the rest of the frequency range is imaged regardless of where the actual source is located (in the trunk for most car audio installs). 

You're able to do this because the brain uses higher frequency cues to locate sub frequencies in music. So when the bass guitar plays a low frequency, there is also a lot of higher frequency content within that instruments sound profile. You hear the subtlety of the pick attack, the higher harmonics being generated by the string vibration, and all the other higher frequency cues coming out of the instrument. There are a lot more higher frequency cues in instruments like synthbass, bass guitar, kick drum, etc ... than most people realize. 

There's also the other instruments playing higher (localizable) frequencies in time with the bass guitar. Those higher frequencies are being reproduced by other (non-subwoofer) speakers in your system, and to wherever they are imaged is where your brain will think the low frequencies are coming from when the system is tuned well and no rattles or vibrations are present near the actual source of the sub frequencies. 

You can do this *because* of the fact lower frequencies are non-localizable, not because technology has somehow enabled you to localize them from the source. It's also why it's almost impossible to do the same thing with mid-bass mounted in the rear. Mid-bass frequencies are higher in the spectrum, and therefore not omnidirectional ... so it's MUCH harder to trick the brain into perceiving them coming from the front if the speakers are mounted in the rear.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Stoopalini said:


> You're describing two different concepts here. The 1st one (low frequencies being omnidirectional) is a function of physics and biology. No matter of technological improvements will effect this, unless we get to the point of bioengineering for your hearing. The concept here is that the human ear & brain cannot locate the *source* of low frequencies. If you have a sub, and play a 30Hz tone from it, and there are no vibrations or harmonic resonance happening from the enclosure or anything around the enclosure ... you will not be able to close your eyes and tell from where the sound is originating.
> 
> 
> The 2nd concept you're describing is related to leveraging technology to trick the brain into hearing the low frequency sounds coming from a specific, desired, location ... not the actual source. This is accomplished by tuning a system well, which causes your brain to locate the low frequency sounds as coming from the same place where the rest of the frequency range is imaged regardless of where the actual source is located (in the trunk for most car audio installs).
> ...


You described this really well. You were much more patient and thorough with your explanation than I was with my half assed explanation.


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