# MS-8 Install in 2014 Limited with 8.4AN



## dengland (May 25, 2014)

This is a build log for my 2014 Ram 1500 Limited. I have been working on it for a few months already. I am replicating at least part of it over here to be able to point to it from within this forum. Compared to others on here, this is pretty "Plain Jane". 

Here is the shiny new truck from May.










My previous ride was a 2004 Tundra that had been modestly enhanced with an Excelon HU, less than $100/pr upgraded door speakers, modest 4ch amp, 300W old school RF Punch mono driving a pair of 8" Comp VRs under the rear bench in a Q-Logic enclosure. It sounded very good to me. Bass was deep and tight.

Stepping into the RAM with the "Premium" Alpine system with a 8.4AN HU was a clear step backwards sonically. The fundamental issue for me was boomy, muddy bass.

I bought a calibrated mic and took a bunch of measurements with REW. I characterized the factory system pretty well.

After a bunch of reading, I opted for the JBL MS-8 over the Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.3 because of two reasons: 

1) MS-8 has an8 channel amp that drive the speakers allowing me to upgrade in slowly in measured steps rather adding new amps and speaker all at the same time. 

and 

2) The auto tune features are probably smarter than I am. I can always tweak personal preferences after it does most of the heavy lifting.

This is what I consider to be the problem that I was fixing.










For reference the measurements I took are located here:

Factory Measurement


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

1st upgrade was replacing L and R dash speakers with Infinity REF 3032 speakers. Much better response with those speakers.










The above is measured external to the vehicle with an external amp. So, it won't directly compare to the thread mentioned in post #1.

I found the soundstage much better with the Center disconnected. With the Center in place, I found that everything seemed to emanate from dead center of the dash with very little separation.

I bought an MS-8 off of ebay for $260 and started studying how I was going to do the install. The two issues were how to connect to the factory wiring and where to actually mount the MS-8 with the thought that external amps are coming in the future.

Attacking the connecting to the factory harness problem, I located the amp under the dash. There are two connectors.



















I looked for awhile for to find something to plug that would prevent me from having to cut factory wires. I possibly found the automotive connectors at Mouser Electronics, but ultimately decided that would not have the crimp tools to populate the pins and the sockets to make the needed harnesses. I gave up on that and resigned myself to cutting into the harness. I looked at several connector configurations but opted for bullet connectors so I could reconfigure if necessary.

The second issue was location. Back wall was my initial thought but I ended up underneath the rear seat for now. I wanted to be able to get at the MS-8 without removing the seat. It will be easy to change in the future.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

It was obvious that Front Dash and Doors need to be summed to get full range. I used the high level inputs as input to the MS-8.

Planned Inputs:

1 Dash Left
2 Door Front Left
3 
4 Dash Right 
5 Door Front Right


Outputs planned:

1 Dash Left
2 Door Front Left
3 Center (Reconnecting it after reading the MS-8 FAQ thread)
4 Dash Right 
5 Door Front Right
6 Door Rear Left
7 Door Rear Right
8 Sub 

*If I had to do it over again, I would do the speakers in the following order to minimize the up and down arrows on the MS-8 when tuning:*

1 Door Front Left (FL Lo)
2 Dash Left (FL Hi)
3 Door Front Right (FR Lo)
4 Dash Right (FR Hi)
5 Center (Center)
6 Door Rear Left (SL)
7 Door Rear Right (SR)
8 Sub (Sub)

Ran a bunch of wires and tied into the factory wiring rather than running all new wires.














































Good view of the bullet connectors that I used. This proved to be a good idea as I took additional measurements later.










A look under the dash. The uncapped bullets are one of the headliner "mistakes" I made following the wiring diagram found online. Cables still needed to be dressed a but more, but you get the idea. I followed a convention of anything with a signal output got a socket and anything expecting a signal got a "pin".


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Initial impressions of the results were not entirely favorable. Best way I can describe it is that it sounds "thin". I suspected that I may have phase issues and the center channel sounded "different" from the left and right. It was still the factory 3.5".

I told the MS-8 that I had no rears/sides and listened to familiar music without rears going to and from work for awhile. I think I am hearing more detail out of the music and it doesn't sound overly "thin" if I have the volume loud enough. The content that has well defined Left and Right content sounds good (BNL's Gordon as an example). The thin comments refer to having Logic 7 turned only.

Since I had easy access to the leads to the speakers I was able to drive them with directly without going through the HU or MS-8. 

Left and right rear appear to be in phase with one another (Low frequencies decrease when I swap the leads for one speaker).










Rears seem out phase with Sub (red trace is when I reverse one lead):










Checking the front doors versus rear door, I can't figure it out from this graph. I ran out of time before moving the mic to a different spot to see if it changed.










Left and Right Dash look clearly in phase. (Blue is in phase)










Not sure what to think about Center speaker versus the right Dash speaker. 60Hz to 250Hz says that it is wired correctly, then the weird crossover. (Blue is in phase)










I also don't know what to think for the Front door (R) vs. Dash (R). (Red is in phase)


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Since the graphs were not totally evident, I took a different approach to determining if I had a phase issue.

I used two different tools. The 1st is an MP3 file that has information recorded in and out of phase.

persiconi.com at Directnic

The second was the same concept, but in some cases it was a bit easier because it went back and forth between in and out of phase. 






In both cases I fed the audio from the computer to a small amp to drive the speakers directly.










Dash Left and Right were in phase with each other.
Front Door Left and Right were in phase with each other.
Rear Door Left and Right were in phase with each other.

Dash Right and Sash Left were in Phase with Center.
Dash Right and Front Door Right were OUT of phase with each other.
Dash Right and Rear Door Right were OUT of phase with each other.
Front Door Right and Rear Door Right were IN phase with each other.
Front Door Right and Sub were OUT of phase with each other.
Rear Door Right and Sub were OUT of phase with each other.

So, Front Doors and Rear Doors were opposite how I initially labeled and connected them.

To correct I swapped the polarity on the MS-8 output channels 2, 5, 6, and 7.

*I did not change the input polarity to the MS 8 for Front Doors. MS-8 must figure it out and correct for it.*

Based on this post, I am thinking I should go change that thought now.



tbomb said:


> MS8 does not/can not correct for phase. You must make sure everything is correct prior to calibration.


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## dallasneon (Nov 3, 2005)

Nice! Subscribed.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

I have created what I think is the correct wiring info for the 2014 Limited. Rear Door speakers polarity swap was my fault. Front Door speakers info appears to be wrong at techauthorityonline. 

The C1 Connector:










The C2 Connector:










If I would have thought ahead, I would have made the ones I believe to be wrong the RED text, and the correct ones BLUE instead of the backwards way I did it.


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## bradknob (Oct 26, 2009)

In!

Glad you're doing a log here as well. Never enough ram builds.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

At this point (end of August 2014), my impressions were as follows:

Since the Center channel has different tonal qualities and appears to play louder, I have it adjusted down a bit. I am still waiting on a set of Infinity 3.5s. (When I called at day 5, I was told the speakers were on back order. 10 hours later, I got an email saying the same thing. I call yesterday to switch to the 3002s and was told they were on backorder as well. Not very happy with those folks...) 

I am impressed with the performance of the OEM front doors. Of course I am not asking them to do too much. Current Lo/High cross is 200Hz. Sub cross 80Hz. When I get the new center installed, I will play a bit more with the crossovers.

I think the OEM 8" sub is doing an amazing job with only one of the voice coils being driven by only 20W from the MS-8. Bottom end has authority that may be partially helped from the 6x9s in the front doors. Songs that have single strong bass lines like "Scream & Shout" by will.i.am, sounds very good. I think I am hearing a bit of distortion with more complex passages. It does not sound as strong as the dual 8's I had in the Tundra driven by 300W. No surprise there. I think it is completely passable at this point. It makes it a bit harder to commit to my currently planned Net Audio Dodge Ram Quad Cab Sub Box Single Low with a JL 10W3V3. ($250 for the box is cheap enough to avoid the do it yourself experiment based on my assessment of my "skills") 

The MS-8 was a good $260 investment. 

*An update from October 5, 2014:*

Infinity 3002s arrived on 9/17 and I installed one as the Center channel. Much to my surprise, doing the level channel test from the MS-8 still had the timbre of the center sounding brighter. 

Installing the speaker revealed that the "baffle" for the center is a very small space where as the left and right empty out from the dash to the floorboard. 

I still have yet to measure the 3002 and compare it to the previously measured 3032. I will do that for completeness.

I bought a 10W3V3-4 off of ebay for less than $150 shipped. I went to pick up a netaudio sub box and it was $80 more than I remember it. Dang. At $220 I was sold. At $300 I am pausing. 

*An update from October 19, 2014:*

I did order the NetAudio Low box. I just got a response from them saying that I am about 6th in line right now, so it should not be a long wait. Paul from Net Audio has been very helpful.

I picked up a JL Audio JX500/1D to drive the Sub.

That sub is sure bigger than a 3.5"!


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

bradknob said:


> In!
> 
> Glad you're doing a log here as well. Never enough ram builds.


:>)

(You are about to get a shout out...)


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

*An update from October 26, 2014:*

Per a suggestion from BradKnob, I raised the Front Hi/Lo front low crossover point to get more out of the 6x9s in the front doors.

I had been using this for awhile:

Sub/Front Cross: 80Hz/24dB slope
Front Lo/Hi Cross: 150Hz/24dB slope
Center Hi Pass: 150Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 50Hz/24dB slope

(with no other adjustments)

I raised the Front Lo/Hi Cross to: 350Hz/24dB slope. It sounded a bit thinner but raising the Bass tone control helped some. Front lows were still not supplying much energy. I spent several days riding around with this setup. I played a bit with the EQ, but never got to happy.

I tried raising Front Lo/Hi Cross to: 500Hz/24dB slope (with the Tone and EQ settings flat). The Center became VERY pronounced and overpowering. 

I had measured the following for the levels at the output diagnostic stage (from the driver's seat) during the setup process:

L: 52 dB
R: 52 dB
C: 54/55 dB
SL: 46 dB
SR: 46 dB
Sub: 42dB

After calibration, dialing back the center to the mid point greatly improved the imaging.

In preparation for the next experiment (inserting an amp with a crossover for the 8" sub while I wait for the real sub enclosure) I reworked the connection. Instead of the MS-8 driving one of the voice coils I wired the two of them in series to present ~ an 4 ohm load. I did not expect one, nor did I get a noticeable difference in bass. 

The next day I reworked my power distribution and added the JL JX500/1D to the mix and tried again.

Sub/Front Cross: 80Hz/24dB slope
*Front Lo/Hi Cross: 400Hz/24dB slope*
Center Hi Pass: 150Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 50Hz/24dB slope

I had the sensitivity way down and LPF of the amp set to 65Hz.

I had measured the following for the levels at the output diagnostic stage (from the driver's seat) during the setup process:

L: 52 dB
R: 52 dB
C: 54/55 dB
SL: 46 dB
SR: 46 dB
*Sub: 35dB*

Basically the 35dB is the noise floor.

Post calibration, I set the sub LPF to 80Hz.

This setup "woke up" the front 6x9s as the MS-8 was trying to overcome the lack of subwoofer output. The sound stage opened up and lost most of the center pronounced overbearing sound stage. While it is a little on the heavy side, this is the best results I have had.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Per another suggestion from Brad (at the other forum)



> if you haven't already, try dropping the sub/front x-over to 55-65ish or so. It may help pull the stage forward and blend the sub and mids a little better. Although I'm not sure what the stock 6x9 are designed to play down to but my understanding is that they receive a full signal in the factory setup anyway. plus I doubt 20 will damage them too much anyway.


I am pretty sure this is a good graph for the 6x9s using an external amp.










With the MS-8 output set at -20dB, I used the output diagnostic to measured speaker responses.

*Front Left Dash and Door:*










I measured about 3" from each of the speakers to minimize the modal effects of the cabin.

Hmmm....Crossing at 400Hz, might not be the best idea. Sort of a weird artifact at 400Hz. Same speaker in the rear, looked a bit different at that specific frequency.

*Front and Rear door Factory 6x9s:*










Center and Front High (Infinity 3.5" speakers) sure sound different even if the graph does NOT show it.










Zooming the scale in:










It appears that the difference is the environment that the two speakers play in. Left and Right dash basically fire up into the windshield and their back is mostly unobstructed down towards the floorboard. The Center only fires up due to some hard plastic preventing any sound from escaping towards the floorboard. As another way to capture how different they sound I did a little iPhone recording.

*Tonal difference between LEFT dash and CENTER dash speaker in Ram 1500.*







*The subwoofer diagnostics: *










It is a bit hard to measure a level at the driver's location in attempt to try and get the levels matched for the MS-8 to do its sweeps. Right now my set point for sensitivity is 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock (about 1/4 turn from all the way down)


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

OK, finally trying what was suggested ("dropping the sub/front x-over to 55-65ish")

Sub/Front Cross: 65Hz/24dB slope
Front Lo/Hi Cross: 400Hz/24dB slope
Center Hi Pass: 150Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 50Hz/24dB slope

LPF of the sub amp set to 65.

It blends pretty well. Certainly making progress. Center is too pronounced still. Dialing the level of the Center back using the MS-8 helped a bit.

Given that the Front Lo looked a bit "wonky" at the 400Hz level, I tried going up to 600Hz for the Front Lo/Hi cross. Also lowered the center to 100Hz..... YUCK.

Next try:

Sub/Front Cross: 65Hz/24dB slope
Front Lo/Hi Cross: *350Hz/24dB slope*
Center Hi Pass: *120Hz/24dB slope*
Side Hi Pass: 50Hz/24dB slope

LPF of the sub amp set to 65 for calibration, then adjusted to 80Hz.

The center was still too prominent. Physically disconnected the Center without recalibrating, and I think it sounds better. Still not happy. I have lost connection to the Factory starting point in my head since it has been so long since I have heard it. I know it clearly sounds very inferior to my very modest home set up. I think that is my stable reference point now as to what sounds good (enough).

Here is what remains constant through all of this. Songs with great L/R separation with a strong bass bottom end, played loud, sound good. (Talking Heads - Stay Up Late, Will.i.am - Scream and Shout, Green Day - Brain Stew, Muse - Madness and Uprising). Songs that don't are disappointing.


At this point I am still waiting for the Netaudio sub enclosure that should be getting close. I don't know if I am also fighting distortion from the plastic factory enclosure for the 8" sub flexing too much.










Not sure if I am wasting my time experimenting in the current configuration or if it is time well spent....


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

dallasneon said:


> Nice! Subscribed.


Thanks Dallas.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

From an earlier post



dengland said:


> Dash Left and Right were in phase with each other.
> Front Door Left and Right were in phase with each other.
> Rear Door Left and Right were in phase with each other.
> 
> ...


I went back swapped polarity on the MS-8 inputs for Channels 2 and 5. (The inputs are only channels 1/2 and 4/5)

I connected the center back up on ran a calibration on 11-11-14 with the following

Subsonic: 20Hz/12dB slope
Sub/Front Cross: 65Hz/24dB slope
Front Lo/Hi Cross: 300Hz/24dB slope
Center Hi Pass: 130Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 50Hz/24dB slope
Sweeps Level: -40

LPF of the sub amp set to 65 for the calibration and then adjusted up to 80Hz.

Latest sounds pretty good. I would say sound image is up front and very well defined. Bottom end is a bit heavy.

Overall Response 










MS-8 was set to "Driver" with the mic vertically oriented about where my nose is.

Looks to have quite the peak at 500Hz and a fair size valley at 220Hz. About a 20dB swing using a sweep on REW. Not sure if that is a visualization of my "thin" sound or not. I have not tried very hard with the graphic equalizer yet.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

I don't exactly see the same thing using pink noise from the the HSU test disc and running the RTA in REW.


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## vinnny (Dec 28, 2011)

dengland said:


> From an earlier post
> I went back swapped polarity on the MS-8 inputs for Channels 2 and 5. (The inputs are only channels 1/2 and 4/5)


Does post #7 have the latest wiring information?

Subscribed! I'll be installing an MS-8 in my '14 ram cc (alpine) in a couple weeks and will be using this and bradknob's threads as a guides. do you know of anyone else with ram build threads?


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

As far as I know it has the latest wiring information.

I started this thread over at ramforumz. In post 3 I have a few Dodge inspirations.

DODGE RAM FORUM - Ram Forums and Owners Club! - Dodge Truck Forum - View Single Post - MS-8 Install in 2014 Limited with 8.4AN

Welcome to the journey!


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

dengland said:


> At this point I am still waiting for the Netaudio sub enclosure that should be getting close. I don't know if I am also fighting distortion from the plastic factory enclosure for the 8" sub flexing too much.


Got a tracking number yesterday. NetAudio Sub enclosure will be delivered on Wednesday. I can get the factory 8" out of the equation and get the JL 10W3V3 in place. Looking forward to that.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

dengland said:


> Got a tracking number yesterday. NetAudio Sub enclosure will be delivered on Wednesday. I can get the factory 8" out of the equation and get the JL 10W3V3 in place. Looking forward to that.


Look what showed up a day early!





































Did a rough install


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## vinnny (Dec 28, 2011)

Nice! If I don't try building one myself I am definitely going with netaudio.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

So, after a bit of work (trimming the would I mounted my power distribution on), I pulled out the 8"OEM and dropped the 10W3V3 into the rear passenger storage space without adjusting anything with the MS-8. I bumped the level up just a bit (from 9 to 9:30 or 10 if the level control had a clock face).

Immediately I could hear a big difference. Everything just sounded richer. I returned the LPF on the JL amp to ~65Hz.

I measured the graph below using the output diagnostic. You can see how nice and flat the JL is from the LPF value and below.










I spent 2 hours driving in the truck today and sampled several different genres of music. My previous complaints of the center being too pronounced and overall sounding "thin" seems to have faded. Next action will be adjusting crossover points. 

Here is a better look at the Door (6x9), Dash (3.5") and Center (3.5")responses. 










I need to see how flat the 10W3V3 remains above 65Hz. That may tell me if the 6x9 hump is the speakers fault or the fault of the cabin.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Hmmmm......

I pulled the original sweep from the Alpine OEM EQed system and compared it to two sweeps using calibrations from November. Factory Trace is BLACK.










*The 11/11/2014 calibration:* (BLUE Trace)
Subsonic: 20Hz/12dB slope
Sub/Front Cross: 65Hz/24dB slope
Front Lo/Hi Cross: 300Hz/24dB slope
Center Hi Pass: 130Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 50Hz/24dB slope
Sweeps Level: -40

LPF of the sub amp set to 65 for the calibration and then adjusted up to 80Hz.


*The 11/28/2014 calibration:* (RED Trace)
Subsonic: 20Hz/12dB slope
Sub/Front Cross: 80Hz/24dB slope
Front Lo/Hi Cross: 300Hz/24dB slope
Center Hi Pass: 130Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 100Hz/24dB slope
Sweeps Level: -40

LPF of the sub amp set to 200 for the calibration.


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## vinnny (Dec 28, 2011)

where did you tap to get the remote trigger for the MS-8?


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

vinnny said:


> where did you tap to get the remote trigger for the MS-8?


I used the rear cig. lighter in my friends ram and had no popping issues or anything.

That Net enclosure looks GREAT. Had I known about them I wouldn't have made one from scratch. Lol. Although I wedged a 13TW5 in.

Awesome thread man. Thanks for sharing! I don't have the patience to document as I build.


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## vinnny (Dec 28, 2011)

JVD240 said:


> I used the rear cig. lighter in my friends ram and had no popping issues or anything.


Does this source turn on and off at same times as the factory head unit?


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

JVD240 said:


> I used the rear cig. lighter in my friends ram and had no popping issues or anything.
> 
> That Net enclosure looks GREAT. Had I known about them I wouldn't have made one from scratch. Lol. Although I wedged a 13TW5 in.
> 
> Awesome thread man. Thanks for sharing! I don't have the patience to document as I build.


Ditto - Rear cig. lighter.

NET Audio I am sure thanks you for the complement. All did was send them money!


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## JVD240 (Sep 7, 2009)

vinnny said:


> Does this source turn on and off at same times as the factory head unit?


I don't think so. It's probably just straight +12V IGN. Never had any pops or anything unusual turning the head unit off/on though.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

vinnny said:


> Does this source turn on and off at same times as the factory head unit?


No. It is on in accessory and after you start the vehicle. That means when you do a remote start from the Keyfob, the HU comes on but MS-8 does not. when I press the start button, the MS-8 will power on. It will stay on with the HU when you shut off the truck, and turn off when the door is opened.

I have a 2014 Limited - not sure if anything behaves differently on a different trim level. Good news is you can test the behavior just by plugging in a cell charger.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

A few weeks ago I started thinking that my 6x9s were not linear enough and were causing some grief. I posted this in the main MS-8 thread.










That starting post is *Here*

There were some suggestions made that I tried to run through. I did not make much progress.

Still thinking this is a problem:


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Time to try 3-way active that everyone raves about.

I got rid of the center and assigned Chanel 3 to FL Low and Channel 8 to FR Low.

No magic bullet.










Settings are :
Front HP: 20Hz/12dB slope
Low / Mid Cross: 90Hz/24dB slope
Mid / High Cross: 300Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 110Hz/24dB slope
MS-8 Level during calibration: -40
MS-8 Level post calibration: -6
LPF of the sub amp set to 100Hz. (calibration and post calibration)
Level of sub amp set to 9 o'clock (range is 7 o'clock to 5 o'clock).

Trying again:










Settings are :
Front HP: 20Hz/12dB slope
Low / Mid Cross: 80Hz/24dB slope
Mid / High Cross: 3500Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 110Hz/24dB slope
MS-8 Level during calibration: -40
MS-8 Level post calibration: -6
LPF of the sub amp set to 50Hz. (calibration and post calibration)
Level of sub amp set to 10 o'clock (range is 7 o'clock to 5 o'clock).


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## bradknob (Oct 26, 2009)

Nice. I think you will like the 3 way set up. 


I have that same dip in my midbass around 250hz just like you do. When measuring each side separately, I noticed that it's just the left side that has the dip. Nearly impossible to EQ out. I changed some x-over points and was able to tame it a little bit.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

*1-2-15 Calibrations:*

I am starting not to believe the RTA results. 










I am starting to think the HSU disc with the pink noise has level issues. I started using the RTAs versus sweeps since it is fast to get multiple measurements and average them. 

*EDIT: See post below about pink noise spectrum*

The curves above are as follows:

Front HP: 20Hz/12dB slope
Low / Mid Cross: 75Hz/24dB slope
Mid / High Cross: *3500Hz/24dB slope*
Side Hi Pass: 110Hz/24dB slope
MS-8 Level during calibration: -40
MS-8 Level post calibration: -6
LPF of the sub amp set to 50Hz. (calibration and post calibration)
Level of sub amp set to 7 o'clock (range is MIN=7 o'clock to MAX=5 o'clock).

AND

Front HP: 20Hz/12dB slope
Low / Mid Cross: 75Hz/24dB slope
Mid / High Cross: *600Hz/24dB slope*
Side Hi Pass: 110Hz/24dB slope
MS-8 Level during calibration: -40
MS-8 Level post calibration: -6
LPF of the sub amp set to 50Hz. (calibration and post calibration)
Level of sub amp set to 7 o'clock (range is MIN=7 o'clock to MAX=5 o'clock).

Going to try a different pink noise source today.

Putting the curve from 12-25 on top and adjusting levels, it is the same from 80-1K. So level of the sub or a peak from the sub is NOT changing anything.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

dengland said:


> I am starting not to believe the RTA results.
> 
> 
> I am starting to think the HSU disc with the pink noise has level issues. I started using the RTAs versus sweeps since it is fast to get multiple measurements and average them.


I am an idiot. 

Pink noise falls off at 3 dB per octave. (or 10dB per decade).

Here is an expected graph of pink noise.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Continuing ....

This is the 1-2-15 Calibration (sub Amp LPF=50 and gain at minimum) measured 3 different ways.

1) Red (mid/high cross 3500Hz) and Blue (mid/high cross at 600) lines are the RTA measurements using (~10 averages in the immediate area of the driver's head) the HSU stereo pink noise *played from the CD *(like the MS-8 setup.)

2) Green line is a standard sweep using REW. (Mid/high cross at 600 just like the blue line) *played through the AUX input*. (9 sweeps were averaged.)

3) Black line is REW generating a periodic Pink Noise *played through the AUX input.* (9 RTAs measurements were averaged.)

Levels were different and for better or worse, I aligned levels at 800Hz.











All I can really say is *WTF with the 40-200Hz*? That "W" looking thing is the front 6x9s I believe. The RTAs (Red, Blue, Black) rolling off is the expected pink noise energy roll off.

Really getting frustrated even trying to understand what I am looking at.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

*Does the small enclosure the sub is in cause the big hump in bass response?*

I don't think so. The following graphs were generated by using the output diagnostic of the MS-8 (Volume = -11) and taking and averaging ~10 measurements for each of the Amp LPF values. Microphone placement was in and around the driver's headrest. 

Full scale view:









Zoomed view:









No 15-20dB of problem introduced by the sub. That makes me feel better that my investment is not causing added grief.

*The front 6x9s in the door look to be an issue.*

The following graphs were generated by using the output diagnostic of the MS-8 (Volume = -11) and taking and averaging ~8 measurements for each. Microphone placement was in and around the driver's headrest. MS-8 volume was identical to the sub measurements.










Interestingly, the Front Right 6x9 (measured at the driver's position) contributes more to the 40-100Hz energy than the Front Left. 30dB from the 70Hz peak to the 500/600Hz valley is quite a bit away from flat.

Throwing everything on the same graph (without touching any levels) yields this:










Now the question is what part of that is due to the "room"? 

I have a set of inexpensive 6.5" Silver Flutes on order to find out.


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## bradknob (Oct 26, 2009)

As far as "room" effect, I think it has a great deal on the response. Although it should be able to be tamed with some tuning. My response looks similar with my Dynaudio mw172, but with no EQ applied...



With a decent bit of eq and level matching, I was able to get it here...



I assume your measurements are taken after the ms-8 applies Eq and all that good stuff? Bc it looks like nothing has been done, I'm wondering if the ms-8 would have had to make such drastic eq cut and boosts, that that's the best that could be done? That's probably all you should expect from a crappy factory speaker.


----------



## dengland (May 25, 2014)

bradknob said:


> As far as "room" effect, I think it has a great deal on the response. Although it should be able to be tamed with some tuning. My response looks similar with my Dynaudio mw172, but with no EQ applied...
> 
> I assume your measurements are taken after the ms-8 applies Eq and all that good stuff? Bc it looks like nothing has been done, I'm wondering if the ms-8 would have had to make such drastic eq cut and boosts, that that's the best that could be done? That's probably all you should expect from a crappy factory speaker.


NO - Output diagnostics are full range pink noise without the EQ.

You can EQ left and right separately?

If you get a chance, email me the .mdat files. I will look at curves and compare against mine.

I think I am going to take a timeout and wait for the speakers, adapters, and the Kolossus sound deadener to arrive. Everything else seems like I am beating my head against the wall.


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## bradknob (Oct 26, 2009)

Yes, I have the helix pro. I can eq each speaker seperately. One of the main reasons I switched from the ms-8.

Ms-8 applies eq during calibration, so if you're measuring before that, what ur measuring is not what ur actually hearing afterwards.

When I get home, I'll shoot over the files


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

bradknob said:


> Yes, I have the helix pro. I can eq each speaker seperately. One of the main reasons I switched from the ms-8.


Very cool.



> Ms-8 applies eq during calibration, so if you're measuring before that, what ur measuring is not what ur actually hearing afterwards.
> 
> When I get home, I'll shoot over the files


Yep. I know that. I was determining starting points with the speakers and the environment.

Thanks on the files. I am really interested.


----------



## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

bradknob said:


> Yes, I have the helix pro. I can eq each speaker seperately. One of the main reasons I switched from the ms-8.
> 
> Ms-8 applies eq during calibration, so if you're measuring before that, what ur measuring is not what ur actually hearing afterwards.
> 
> When I get home, I'll shoot over the files


Fa sho!

Cool thread, glad I found it. Sub'd


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

dengland said:


> I have a set of inexpensive 6.5" Silver Flutes on order to find out.


Silver Flutes arrived. Sound deadener arrived. 6x9 to 6.5" adapters arrived.

However










The speakers are too big.

I did measure the response of the Silver Flutes sitting in open air.


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## bradknob (Oct 26, 2009)

Nice, beefy lil dude. I'm sure they'll be much nicer than the factory 6x9s. Looking forward to what u think of em.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

OK, time to take the door apart.



















OEM Speaker out of the way.










Fit check the 6x9 to 6.5" adapter. I have estimated what needed to be removed from adapter to allow the speaker frame to fit inside. That is the blue sharpie line.










Installed some KnuKonceptz Kno Knoise Kolossus Sound Deadener (100Mil) where I could reach. Used a bit more than a sheet and a half. Rapping my knuckles on the outside door panel comparing treated versus untreated is a big difference. Hopefully, I got enough on there. The stuff is thick and has no smell. It was right at $4/sqft. And, the window still goes up and down!.



















I am took a box cutter to the adapters to enlarge the holes so the speaker would fit. It was a lot like whittling. I am pleased to report that a did not do a "Herman Merman" (Bad Santa reference). No blood was shed from the hole enlargement process. 

Here is the Silver Flute mounted.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

I only had time to get one of the 2 speakers installed yesterday, so, no new calibration. I did run the MS-8 output diagnostics to see if the Silver Flute was any different than the OEM 6x9.

Short answer is that it doesn't appear to be different.










Red is the Silver Flute.
Green is the OEM in the right door from a couple of weeks ago.
Blue is the right door.

All measurements are using the output diagnostic generated by the MS-8 and averaging multiple measurements from the head area of the driver's seat.


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## bradknob (Oct 26, 2009)

I wonder if the ms-8 built in amp could be part of the problem? My JBL amps were very peaky. When I switched to the leviathan, there was a noticable difference in the response with all setting kept the same from the JBLs.

I'll see if I have some graphs from both.


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## bradknob (Oct 26, 2009)

Also, you may want to try and get some deadener around the edges of the new baffle you installed. Will help get a better air tight seal.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

bradknob said:


> Also, you may want to try and get some deadener around the edges of the new baffle you installed. Will help get a better air tight seal.


Sure now you tell me... I finished the 2nd speaker earlier today. I do like the sound deadener. I will buy it again. One day I will pull out the rear seats again and put some up on the back wall.

I am starting to completely get why you went another direction than the MS-8. I continue to have trouble getting it to do what I need it to. I do think it is all about the levels and I only have one (sub amp) that I can play with. 

While the laptop was charging I used the iPhone SPL meter. I lowered the MS-8 Volume to -25 (I usually cal at -40). Using the output diagnostics I measure right about 60 dB from front doors, and L/R dash. Sub was way down. I opened up the LPF to 200 and cranked the gain up a bit. It never got to 60dB. Crossed the Lo/[email protected] 80 and the mid/high @ 3500. Calibrated at that -25 value. Testing left and right before the calibration ones was dead on 60dB for both left and right. SL and SR were in the 50s. Calibration tones were a bit louder than I am used to. The results were no bass to speak of, mid or otherwise. 

I then defeated the MS-8 processing and it came alive. Easily twice as loud and full of bass. I am actively fighting the MS-8. It was a bit much and I dialed back the Sub Amp LPF to 80 and adjusted the gain until it sounded well blended in the center of the car.

My next calibration is going to be with the sub just as it is new, but back do to lower levels (-40 on the MS-8).

Laptop is probably charged now.....


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## bradknob (Oct 26, 2009)

I feel your pain dude. At first I was scared to go full blown DSP bc I had no clue what I was doing. After dealing with the ms-8 always getting me almost there.... I made the jump.

Constantly battling the ms-8 gave me all the knowledge I needed to attempt it on my own. Best decision I ever made. U know what I'm gonna say next.....



U should look into getting a real processor. Lol


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Here are the output diagnostics with the sub adjusted by ear and averaging the Mids (Silver Flutes) and averaging the highs (Infinity 3.5s in the dash)










Looks pretty easy to auto EQ to me ....

I ran out of daylight before measuring what it did when with this MS-8 vol @ -35....

Based on this I should probably do the mid/high cross at 1500 Hz.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

dengland said:


> I ran out of daylight before measuring what it did when with this MS-8 vol @ -35....


Should read "I ran out of daylight before measuring what it did when with this MS-8 vol @ *-25...."*


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Final got to measure what was done the other day.

REW sweep yields the following:










Blue is the MS-8 processing the signal. Red is with Processing defeated.

A couple of months ago, I think I proved to myself that the Aux input on the MS-8 was yielding curves that were similar to using the HU as a source. So I think the MS-8 is unEQing the HU adequately. 

MS-8 settings were:

Front HP: 20Hz/24dB slope
Low / Mid Cross: 80Hz/24dB slope
Mid / High Cross: 3500Hz/24dB slope (1KHz - 2KHz would probably be better)
Side Hi Pass: 110Hz/24dB slope
MS-8 Level during calibration: -35
MS-8 Level post calibration: -6
LPF of the sub amp set to 100Hz. (calibration and post calibration)
Level of sub amp set to 10 o'clock (range is MIN=7 o'clock to MAX=5 o'clock).

I also took periodic pink noise measurements.










Looks analogous.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

bradknob said:


> I wonder if the ms-8 built in amp could be part of the problem? My JBL amps were very peaky. When I switched to the leviathan, there was a noticable difference in the response with all setting kept the same from the JBLs.
> 
> I'll see if I have some graphs from both.


I hear you... 



bradknob said:


> I feel your pain dude. At first I was scared to go full blown DSP bc I had no clue what I was doing. After dealing with the ms-8 always getting me almost there.... I made the jump.
> 
> Constantly battling the ms-8 gave me all the knowledge I needed to attempt it on my own. Best decision I ever made. U know what I'm gonna say next.....
> 
> ...


Yep, I knew that was coming! I do feel good about using the internal amps to date as I have been experimenting. I feel like I have been on the hairy edge of enough power. Could I be happy enough? Number of channels needed was somewhat in question for me. Can I sneak by with 4 channels, or do I need to buy 8? Center yes, versus center no? I have not really had to face those questions. And then there is the fact that I only ran 4 gauge power with an 85 amp fuse.

Kaigoss replied to my post in the main MS-8 thread and thought I probably needed to amplify the doors and apply filtering with the Amp.

Once I make the jump to external amps, then a more configurable DSP is certainly an option.

Do you still have your JBL MS-A1004?


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## bradknob (Oct 26, 2009)

Wow, funny too see how much the ms-8 kills 400hz and down after calibration.

I sold all my MS amps to fund the new gear. Kinda wish I could have hung on to them, cool little amps.


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## vinnny (Dec 28, 2011)

dengland said:


> I have created what I think is the correct wiring info for the 2014 Limited. Rear Door speakers polarity swap was my fault. Front Door speakers info appears to be wrong at techauthorityonline.
> 
> The C1 Connector:
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to post all of this info. You and others like you have no doubt helped a ton of people.

Before I get started tearing into my wiring, can you confirm your above diagram corrections are still up-to-date? I am doing a similar install of factory alpine to MS8. Thanks!


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

vinnny said:


> Thanks for taking the time to post all of this info. You and others like you have no doubt helped a ton of people.
> 
> Before I get started tearing into my wiring, can you confirm your above diagram corrections are still up-to-date? I am doing a similar install of factory alpine to MS8. Thanks!


You are welcome. Just building off of others. As far as I know it is.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

vinnny said:


> Thanks for taking the time to post all of this info. You and others like you have no doubt helped a ton of people.
> 
> Before I get started tearing into my wiring, can you confirm your above diagram corrections are still up-to-date? I am doing a similar install of factory alpine to MS8. Thanks!


Might want to pause.... I am starting to question if my front door corrections are wrong. Sorry.

Ordered this to really check.

http://www.dx.com/p/fh-168-car-phase-testing-meter-for-speaker-amplifier-black-282908#.VNaI-k05BUQ


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## vinnny (Dec 28, 2011)

Can't the polarity be checked with a multimeter? I put mine on ohms and got a negative number using factory diagram, but swapped to your diagram and got a positive number. Seems like you got it correct, but I am no expert with a multimeter,


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## vinnny (Dec 28, 2011)

dengland said:


> Might want to pause.... I am starting to question if my front door corrections are wrong. Sorry.
> 
> Ordered this to really check.
> 
> FH-168 Car Phase Testing Meter for Speaker / Amplifier - Black - Free Shipping - DealExtreme


Any updated on your phase testing?


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

vinnny said:


> Any updated on your phase testing?


I have been out of town. Unfortunately, the mail man has not delivered the device yet. Maybe tomorrow will be a delivery day.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Been a long time since an update. The Magic device for checking polarity still has not shown up. It was probably a good thing because I discovered I already had the capability within the Audio Tools App that I had on my iPhone and iPad.

The AudioTools Platform | Studio Six Digital

Been corresponding with RPR on his BitOne struggles with his 8.4AN. He was seeing some strange waveforms from Dash outputs from the HU.










I bought a cheap pocket oscilloscope to be able to look at the same signals.

JYE Tech: DIY Oscilloscopes, DIY Kits for Hobbyists










After a false start thinking RPR was talking about the front door HU outputs post factory amp (inputs to his BitOne / My MS-8 input), I checked the front Dash output for distortion. 

To make this check I fed a 1K signal from the iPad to the AUX in on the HU. I maxed the HU volume to 38. Scope is on the MS-8 input.

The result was a clean waveform.



















If I set the iPad to absolute max volume , I could generate a similar waveform.










RPR was able to get the amp replaced. Ultimately, he attributed the distortion to the level of the CD being much higher level than the AUX input. So nothing really fundamentally wrong with using the front dash as an input.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

This led to some further measurements of what was coming out to the OEM amp. (Have to do something with the scope just because I have one...)

The following table shows what I measured at the input to the MS-8 and the resulting SPL in the cab with the HU on 20.










I tried the HU on 38, and did not get clipping on any waveform.

As RPR pointed out to me, the Voltages look extremely low. The acoustic measurements we taken a day later. I listened at the values that measured the voltages at ([email protected]). They were quieter than I expected. I think it was because the headset volume on the iPad was low (even though the digital volume inside the App was high). 

I did not remeasure at a different iPad output level. What I think that can be taken from this is that voltage being supplied to the MS-8 from just the Front Doors and Dash is not enough.

For the MS-8 to say OK, OK, OK on the level checks, the HU Volume has to be 28.

I ran 2 more pair of wires to pick up the Rear doors as inputs to the MS-8 and made another run at checking the phase....


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## patricia (Mar 27, 2015)

dengland said:


> I don't exactly see the same thing using pink noise from the the HSU test disc and running the RTA in REW.


 will be using this and bradknob's threads as a guides


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

To make the test, I used the Audio Tools app.

Here it is in action (This particular clip shows how it is changing being above or below the Dash speaker. Below would mean the speaker excursion is moving away with a positive pules and towards with a negative pulse.)






This is how I see the world relative to wiring.










What I have set as absolute is pin and wire color per the Chrysler diagram. Channel 6 (right rear door) does not fit the pattern. The pluses and minuses in Column C and P match the Chrysler diagram except Rear door left. They are colored orange in my image to highlight that.

The "User Input Wire" is how I am getting from under the dash to the rear of the cab where the MS-8 is.

The "User Speaker Wire" is how I get from the MS-8 output to the factory wiring going to the speakers.

*Testing Phase on the MS-8 Inputs:*

I feed the speaker wire pair under test (column ‘G” wire was connected to the (+) of a bookshelf speaker) the mono signal from the speaker test app fed from the headphone jack of the iPad to ‘AUX in’ on the HU. If I saw a ‘+’ on the display, I connected the ‘+’ to the ‘+’ on the MS-8 input. If I saw a negative, I swapped it.

*Testing Phase on the MS-8 Outputs:*

I fed the signal from the mono speaker test app from the headphone jack of the iPad to an external amp (120V 20W Stereo). The "User Speaker Wire" with the stripe was connected '+' on the external amp. If I saw a ‘+’ on the display, I connected the ‘+’ to the ‘+’ on the MS-8 output. If I saw a negative, I swapped it.

The MS-8 inputs and outputs highlighted in yellow are swaps at the MS-8. 

I feel very confident that things are correct, because if I go to the MS-8 diagnostic screen and go into bypass mode, all speakers pass the polarity test with the entire chain (AUX in on HU->MS-8->Speakers). Same for all of the MS-8 processing active. This was NOT the case before. Dramatic differences were heard between Bypass/Processing Active/Processing defeated.

This is the difference between the three.










Red=Pass through
Blue=Processing Defeated
Black=Normal

It was a terrible week driving around with that mess.

I am not ready yet to declare the factory diagram wrong because I am still confused as to why I had to do what I did.

Next updates will be REW curves using 6 inputs to the MS-8.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Now that I think the phase is good all the way through it was time to try a tune with all six inputs:

*Inputs:*

1 Dash Left
2 Door Front Left
3 
4 Dash Right 
5 Door Front Right
6 Door Rear Left
7 Door Rear Right

Running and Active 3-way Front stage. The outputs are assigned as follows:

1 Dash Left (FL Hi)
2 Door Front Left (FL Mid)
3 Sub (FL Lo)
4 Dash Right (FR Hi)
5 Door Front Right (FR Mid)
6 Door Rear Left (SL)
7 Door Rear Right (SR)
8 Sub (FR Lo)

Front HP: 20Hz/12dB slope
Low / Mid Cross: 80Hz/24dB slope
Mid / High Cross: 1500Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 110Hz/24dB slope
MS-8 Level during calibration: -35
MS-8 Level post calibration: -6
LPF of the sub amp set to 100Hz. (calibration and post calibration)
Level of sub amp set to between 10 and 11 o'clock (range is 7 o'clock to 5 o'clock).

During the calibration sequence the MS-8 was happy at HU volume at 22 versus the usual 28. So, the MS-8 was seeing a larger signal with six input channels versus 4.

When it was done calibrating it was much louder and stronger. I suspect I had corrected some phase cancelations too. 

Post calibration it was not a spectacularly good tune from a balanced frequency response point of view. It was very easy to overdrive and cause distortion (something I never had the ability to do before). It was distorting with the HU above 25.










YIKES! I cut down the 400 – 2K range using the 31 Band Equalizer. I also faded to the front to lower signal from the rears that would show up on the MS-8 inputs.










It was better. I reran the calibration and ended up with a similar curve that I could still drive to distortion.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

I did my best to match the MS-8 target curve.

*Before:*










*After* (Actually it looks more like the "Andy" curve rather than the MS-8. I must have loaded the wrong one then labeled it MS-8 Curve)










Adjustments were

25: +10
32: +10
40: +8
50: +6
63: +8
80: +4
200: +2
250: +1
400: -4
500: -9
630: -9
800: -9
1K: -6
1.25K: -3
1.6K: -3
2.5K: +3
3.15K: +2
5K: -5
6.3K: -4
12.5K: -8
16K: -10

I got a bit carried away with the bass. Some of that was increasing the SW level in the MS-8 controls. I have since backed them down a bit. It is sounding pretty good.


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## bradknob (Oct 26, 2009)

Nice job. Response is looking much better. 

Would u say it's the best it's sounded thus far?


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Wow I missed this thread, I need to re-read it to compare to my ms8 measurements. 
But quick questions:
- do you really like this huge bass boost?
- how did you load the target curve?
thx!


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

bradknob said:


> Nice job. Response is looking much better.
> 
> Would u say it's the best it's sounded thus far?


Definitely. I backed off the bass and have not remeasured. It is still missing something that I have not been able to put my finger on. I have not tried too hard yet. I want to pick a different 6.5" to 3.5" crossover point and recalibrate. I want to raise it a bit. I have a harshness in the sound and I think I want to get some energy out of the 3.5s.

In a moment of weakness, I bought a PPI 900.4. So now I will be able to vary the levels between the Front doors, Front Dash, and Sub. A new level of complexity! I will probably take a week or two to install it.

I am also getting a PPI 600.2 as part of the deal. So, I am capable of eliminating the 20W amps in the MS-8 if I install that. I will have to redo power though. I only ran 4Ga. (Fused at 85A). I am not excited about that work.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Elgrosso said:


> Wow I missed this thread, I need to re-read it to compare to my ms8 measurements.
> But quick questions:
> - do you really like this huge bass boost?
> - how did you load the target curve?
> thx!


It does not blend too well. I have dialed it back a bit.

Loading the target curve is found under Preferences>House Curve. It will be visible with Equalizer function. Let me know if it is not helpful enough and I will try harder. I have not figured out how to get to show up other places.

Files are located here:
Link to Target Curve Thread


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

dengland said:


> It does not blend too well. I have dialed it back a bit.
> 
> Loading the target curve is found under Preferences>House Curve. It will be visible with Equalizer function. Let me know if it is not helpful enough and I will try harder. I have not figured out how to get to show up other places.
> 
> ...


Ok got it, I thought we could access it on regular windows, thanks!


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

The PPI 900.4 and 600.2 amps arrived last week, but I needed a few ancillary things before connecting anything.










I created the permanent resting place with a carpeted board while I waited on parts. 










I played with layouts of 3 amps under the rear passenger seat.










Back amp was a bit too tall. But I was only adding the 900.4 for the front Dash and doors so I did not need 3 on the board. which is good because the 12V power is underrated for 3 amps and the MS-8. That is a future fix.

When the MS-8 was initially installed, I had the rear seat out and had access to both sides of the unit. After the seat was reinstalled it was a bit harder. When the sub amp was added, plugging into the lineout had to be done by feel and counting holes blindly.










So, I added a mounting board to allow me to pull it out for easy access. 










Back to the PPI 900.4 Install.... 

Power additions (When I upgrade the 12V distribution, I will replace the temp power mounting and place it on a carpeted board).










And the amps mounted.


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## tulse (Mar 16, 2010)

Thanks for documenting all this. I have the 8.4AN in a 2015 Jeep and an MS-8, too. Perfect primer here. 

Can I ask where you got the wiring diagrams on page 1 from, especially the part from the screen shot below. My rear left door speaker wires are gray with either a lightish (lime) green or darkish green stripe. Colors are pretty close. I'm trying to find polarity on them.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

tulse said:


> Thanks for documenting all this. I have the 8.4AN in a 2015 Jeep and an MS-8, too. Perfect primer here.
> 
> Can I ask where you got the wiring diagrams on page 1 from, especially the part from the screen shot below. My rear left door speaker wires are gray with either a lightish (lime) green or darkish green stripe. Colors are pretty close. I'm trying to find polarity on them.


https://techauthorityonlinedemo.extra.chrysler.com/service/repair/wiring/view/classic.htm

I believe the diagram on this one... Lime (or light green stripe) is the positive.


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## tulse (Mar 16, 2010)

dengland said:


> https://techauthorityonlinedemo.extra.chrysler.com/service/repair/wiring/view/classic.htm
> 
> I believe the diagram on this one... Lime (or light green stripe) is the positive.


Great resource there. You, Sir, are awesome. Thanks!


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

dengland said:


> I have been out of town. Unfortunately, the mail man has not delivered the device yet. Maybe tomorrow will be a delivery day.


The device arrived on 5/15.










It looks that it went from China to Sweden to Florida. Pretty crazy.










Good thing I found another way to check the phase.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Starting to think I want to try and abandon the 3.5's in the dash and go with tweets in the sails.

I guess like everything else, you can spend any amount of money. I took a look at what Bradknob was doing for the newly acquired Jeep

scanspeak-illuminator-r3004

Those are about $280 for the pair. Or, I can spend $8 for a pair of highly rated Power Acoustics NB.1s from Sonic. Not exactly sure where to start to balance risk versus reward for an experiment since I have to cut plastic to mount them.

Help!


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Highly rated power acoustic? Does that exist


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## bradknob (Oct 26, 2009)

dengland said:


> Starting to think I want to try and abandon the 3.5's in the dash and go with tweets in the sails.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'd stay away from power acoustic.... Period. There are plenty good quality lower prices tweeters on parts express. Vifa, tang band, to name a couple. What is your budget? I'll recommend a few.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Thanks guys. 

I was not advocating for the NBs. (They did have 4.4 stars with 81 reviews/comments)

Power Acoustik NB-1 (nb1) 1" Surface/Angle-Mount Micro Dome

Good question on price threshold. Absolute top is $100 for the pair. 

My Silver Flutes were only $60 for the pair. I don't know if I am going to make things better or worse with the installation of tweeters. So, I don't want to get too far out of line.

I had seen the Vifa XT 25 tweeter in some threads here. Something already in an enclosure would be a bonus. (i.e. all I have to do is cut a round hole).


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## Echo42987 (Dec 25, 2008)

Does the JBL sum the signal coming out of it? Because I know on our vehicles that the front right only pull a certain hz range and the dash speakers only send out a certain range. They aren't full bands. Does the JBL take those signals and sum them together to make sure that you are getting a full band? 

JL Audio FiX-82 - Processors

I just purchased one of these and am installing the Alpine processor. Nice right up. I will use your diagram for sure to connect from the internal amp to the signal processor.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

The MS-8 will sum all 8 inputs. I am using 6 inputs (3 left and 3 right). I added the rear doors to pick up rear parking alerts.

I am not familiar with the JL Audio FiX-82 - Processor.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Finally broke down and added the CDT DRT-26S in the dash locations in lieu of the Infinity 3032s and re-tuned.

Sort of an epic fail with the 1st attempt. RED is with processing and BLUE is with it defeated.

This was attempted after matching dB levels of MS-8 diagnostic output of Doors (ch 2 and 5), tweeters (ch 1 and 4), and sub (ch 3 and 8) to the SL/SR (Ch 6 and 7) levels as suggested in the MS-8 thread.




Running and Active 3-way Front stage. The outputs are assigned as follows:

1 Dash Left (FL Hi)
2 Door Front Left (FL Mid)
3 Sub (FL Lo)
4 Dash Right (FR Hi)
5 Door Front Right (FR Mid)
6 Door Rear Left (SL)
7 Door Rear Right (SR)
8 Sub (FR Lo)

Front HP: 20Hz/24dB slope
Low / Mid Cross: 80Hz/24dB slope
Mid / High Cross: 3000Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 80Hz/24dB slope
MS-8 Level during calibration: -35


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Output diagnostic of the CDT DRT-26S in the dash locations.

This is measured from the driver's headrest position.

Right tweeter has a definite hump at ~1.4K. The right tweeter is noticeably louder If I use just a simple SPL reading, it is about 3dB hotter (z-weighted).


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

The response was positional. Must be a ton of reflections. If I moved the microphone about 5 inches to the right, the response flattens out as seen in the RED trace.



The 3 locations are drivers seat left of the headrest, right of the headrest and center of the headrest.

The level still appears to be an issue. Graph below shows the average right response versus average left response of the positions described above.


----------



## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Tried again to adjust the levels before a calibration run. 

Tweeters were about 44dB from 1.8K-6K.



6" Doors about 43dB. But really hard to tell.



SL and SR were 55dB from 50Hz to 150Hz and about 38 dB from 200Hz to 700Hz. Since these are fed from the MS-8, there was no way to adjust the levels of the sides.

The sub was really low as all of the suggestions in the MS-8 Thread. 50dB for 70 and below.



Tried the calibration with the following:
3-Way
Front HP: 20Hz/6dB slope
Low / Mid Cross: 75Hz/24dB slope
*Mid / High Cross: 1600Hz/24dB slope*
Side Hi Pass: 100Hz/24dB slope
MS-8 Level during calibration: -40

When complete, there was noticeable hiss with no signal. Crossover was WAY too low. I expected that coming in to the tune. It was way too harsh sounding even after the EQ that dialed it in pretty good (RED trace). The Bottom end was better than I have ever gotten before. Getting much closer.



DEFEATing the MS-8 sounded truly horrid (BLACK trace)!



Next attempt I am going to leave the Amp levels where they currently are and just change the mid/high crossover point.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

One more pic... Before EQ (what the MS-8 thought was good - BLUE trace) versus Defeating the MS-8 processing (BLACK trace).

DEFEATed there is a huge spike at 5.76K and the MS-8 thinks a huge dip at 7.56K is the way to go.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Have you tried not doing it as a 3 way? Sub/mid/tweeter


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

DDfusion said:


> Have you tried not doing it as a 3 way? Sub/mid/tweeter


I switched to 3 way a while ago from 2 way, center + sub. 

I have NOT tried 2 way in the current amp configuration. When I was 2 way I believe I was using the internal amps in the MS-8.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Taken a few more measurements in a better manner. RTA measurements with about 90 measurements moving from ear to ear in an arc.

MS-8 thread is a bit unclear with respect to crossovers.


> The pink noise in Output Diagnostics is sent to combinations of speakers identified as Front Right, Front Left, etc. It is filtered by the crossovers. The pink noise in the secret menu is full range (not filtered by the crossovers) and is sent to individual channels.


Looks like crossovers are in play. I was using the Output diagnostic via the secret menu. 

3-Way Front
Front HP: 20Hz/6dB slope
Low / Mid Cross: 75Hz/24dB slope
Mid / High Cross: 4000Hz/24dB slope

Left and right tweets are particularly unbalanced.



Looking at the average levels.



Big gap in the 300 to 1.35KHz range. I guess it explains the tune the MS-8 created.



It did EQ to a reasonable sound. It took +10s and -10s. Bass clips in some cases.

I think the 3.5's are going back in. The Silver Flutes are not covering the range I expected.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I think the flutes are very over hyped. 

Anyway. Where do you have the gains during calibration? I think you might be clipping. 
Try it around half of where you normally set it. Calibration volume at 35-40. If it's not loud enough add a touch of gain, even on every channel


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Thanks for the response. Starting to think the same about the Silver Flutes. They were a very inexpensive experiment to see if the factory 6x9 were having a negative influence. When I bought those, I had not added external amps.

The tweets were an inexpensive (~$50) experiment as well.

MS-8 Volume at -35. Sweeps should not be to loud. I probably have as many -40s as -35s.

If I switch to a Helix Pro, I probably need to get rid of all the $25 speakers.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Where in Florida are you? Me and the MS-8 are very close friends. When it's off its off. But when it's on its golden.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

I'm surprise by your results and the big deviations.
Did you try hanatsu's method with REW?
That's the one that gave me the best results when I had the ms8, to optimize xo & levels.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

I'm surprise by your results and the big deviations.
Did you try hanatsu's method with REW?
That's the one that gave me the best results when I had the ms8, to optimize xo & levels.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

DDfusion said:


> Where in Florida are you? Me and the MS-8 are very close friends. When it's off its off. But when it's on its golden.


East Central Florida. North of Melbourne


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Elgrosso said:


> I'm surprise by your results and the big deviations.
> Did you try hanatsu's method with REW?
> That's the one that gave me the best results when I had the ms8, to optimize xo & levels.


I don't remember if I have seen that or not. I have tried to EQ to his curve before. I will go looking for that. I assume on this forum?


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

I was able to confirm that one of my tweeters is bad. Not sure if one is under performing or if one is over performing. 

The CDT DRT-26S has a replaceable driver. I swapped the Left and the Right drivers while leaving the wiring and "cup" and the problem moved with the driver.

The 3.5" Infinity 2-ways are reinstalled in the dash. I got what I feel is a very good set of measurements using the RTA function of REW.



Looks like the 3002 coaxial has a cross at about 2K. Next chance I get I will lower the mid/high cross down to about 350 or 400. I need to level adjust 5-10dB first.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

dengland said:


> I don't remember if I have seen that or not. I have tried to EQ to his curve before. I will go looking for that. I assume on this forum?


Yes here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...first-timers-guide-measuring-your-system.html

I didn't mean you did wrong, it's just that it's easy to focus on something that is finally only due to the point(s) of measurements (I do it all the time).


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Elgrosso said:


> Yes here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...first-timers-guide-measuring-your-system.html
> 
> I didn't mean you did wrong, it's just that it's easy to focus on something that is finally only due to the point(s) of measurements (I do it all the time).


Thanks. It does look familiar. I will take a fresh look when I have a fresh brain.

Thanks again.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

dengland said:


> Thanks. It does look familiar. I will take a fresh look when I have a fresh brain.
> 
> Thanks again.


The 1st few pages looked familiar, but not all of it. Looks like I have some reading to do. Thanks for pointing it out.


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## adrianp89 (Oct 14, 2007)

Where in Florida are you?


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

the727kid said:


> Where in Florida are you?


East Central Florida. North of Melbourne. Town is called Rockledge.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Elgrosso said:


> Yes here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...first-timers-guide-measuring-your-system.html
> 
> I didn't mean you did wrong, it's just that it's easy to focus on something that is finally only due to the point(s) of measurements (I do it all the time).


And this one by Hanatsu:
*How to get the most out of your system*


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## adrianp89 (Oct 14, 2007)

dengland said:


> East Central Florida. North of Melbourne. Town is called Rockledge.


If you ever make a trip to the Tampa Bay area, I would love to take a listen. I am slowly working on my Ram and will be using a MS-8 as well.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Made another run yesterday AM at setting levels with some proximity to the target curve. Since I am using the MS-8, I could not adjust things like the "first-timers guide" suggested. I only measured the left for setting the levels.

What I adjusted the levels to be used as a the starting levels:

BLUE is sub
RED is the front left 6.5" door
GREEN is the 3.5" coax speaker in the dash
BLACK is the Generic House Curve

I used RTA in one location to get the levels (left side) 



MS-8 parameters were set up as a 3-Way Front with the following:
Front HP: 20Hz/6dB slope
Low / Mid Cross: 80 Hz/24dB slope
Mid / High Cross: 350 Hz/24dB slope

It yielded a familiar shaped curve (1/6 smoothing).



Looks like I can EQ it down to a reasonable Hanatsu curve with some significant cuts. The resultant tune is shown with 1/12 smoothing.



Something that I have never done is remove the sides from the equation. Those speakers are factory rear doors using the internal amp of the MS-8.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Went ahead and remeasured the speakers using RTA and the output test from the test menu on the MS-8. Measurement was continuous sweep from Left to Right ear while seated in the driver's seat. At least 80 averages were used.

The 6.5's in the doors looked like this:


Discovered that I had the HPF on the amp feeding the dash 3.5's. Ooops. 


Even without the 1:1 smoothing the left and right track on the 3.5's pretty well.

The sub which is used as the L and R Low I had opened up the LPF to 200Hz on the amp to get the full range for establishing the capabilities was creating a bit of a hump or knee. 



I lowered the LPF to the min of 50Hz.

The levels look as close to the Hanatsu generic house curve (Bright RED trace) as possible before turning the MS-8 loose to auto tune.



Zooming in it looks like around 70 Hz is the right place for the Lo/Mid cross depending on highest level or lowest level from the 6.5".



Zooming in it looks like around 350 Hz is the right place for the Mid/High cross depending on highest level or lowest level from the 6.5". If I go back to where the left and the right levels are close to equal for the 6.5", I would be in the 160Hz range. 



And the resultant curve is again familiar with a ton of energy between 300Hz and 1K.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

dengland said:


> Something that I have never done is remove the sides from the equation. Those speakers are factory rear doors using the internal amp of the MS-8.


Sides do not change the tune. Just some level differences.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

*Average Levels used for crossover*

I averaged the left and the rights and looked for the crossover points to use.



I chose 67Hz for the low/mid cross and 300 for the mid/hi cross. I did not expect it to be measurably different and it wasn't. Same strange boost from 300Hz to 1KHz.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

DDfusion said:


> Have you tried not doing it as a 3 way? Sub/mid/tweeter


Here you go comparing the 2 way versus the 3 way. Cross at 67 and 300Hz.

RED is the 3-way
BLUE is the 2-way



3-Way slope is a bit steeper dropping off beginning at 60Hz. Obvious level difference with the low end too.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

It was suggested in the main MS-8 thread that I should reverse the sub.

I had switched from a 3-way to a 2-way since posting with a sub/low cross @60Hz. 

RED trace is the 2-way with no manual EQ applied. Swapping the sub phase resulted in steeper cut and a bigger suck out from 60Hz to 100Hz(GREEN trace). So, I don't think there is a phase issue with the sub. 



Staring at the data this AM for several additional measurements I made yesterday, I am bit confused about the graph below. 

RED is still the starting reference as above.

With the sub polarity swapped, disconnecting both doors (PURPLE) decreased levels above 60Hz, which makes sense based on a 60Hz/24dB cross.

Same for left door disconnected with the sub polarity swapped (BLUE), slightly less of a decrease above 60Hz then when both are disconnected.

However, with the Right door disconnected and sub polarity swapped (GREEN), levels are lower from 60Hz and lower.




I need to look at that again and make sure nothing else is going on.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Tried an experiment of telling the MS-8 there was a sub while it was actually disconnected. Then reconnected it.

Without changing the sub level that was established on 6-18. When the sub was reconnected, it was overdriven and distorted.

Graph below was turning the sub level as low as possible. Still extremely boomy.




Trying the tune with the sub turned all the way down yielded the following:


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

No sub connected. Sub / Mid cross is at 60Hz/24dB slope. GREEN line is mids with the same phase (actually both are reversed from normal as an artifact of previous testing).

BLUE line is with the mids out of phase with one another. So, looks like my mids are connected correctly with respect to phase between the two.



Restored the mids to their original phases and the 200-400 "W" dip in the GREEN trace above goes away. GOLD trace has the sub connected again as a reference point.



I decided the extreme drop from 60-80Hz is at least partially because of the LPF on the sub amp being set too low. I opened it up to 125Hz.

*It looks more like it may be a modal issue to me now. *

In the picture below the sub gain is slightly higher with the LPF set @ 125Hz. Sub/Mid crossed at 80Hz/24dB. I measured the response at 3 different locations in the truck cab. (i.e., Driver's seat, Passenger's Seat, and mic on the Center Console between the two seats)



The GREEN trace from the passenger seat is more uniform other than that ugly null at 65Hz.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

With the same levels as in the previous post, the crossover was changed from 80Hz to 50Hz. Sub gain @ 10 O'clock. LPF on sub amp @ 125Hz



60Hz - 160Hz looks much better.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

I raised the level on the sub prior to calibration. RED and GREEN are the Left and Right doors.



2-Way front with Sub

Subsonic: 20Hz/6dB slope
Sub/Front Cross: 50Hz/24dB slope
Front Lo/Hi Cross: 300Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: 100Hz/24dB slope
MS-8 Level during calibration: -35 

Got one of the better tunes with those parameters and increased sub level. 

*MS-8 Target*


*Hanatsu Target*


It sounds pretty good just quickly knocking down the 400-800Hz.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Copying from the main MS-8 thread:



Elgrosso said:


> Ok,
> I might be wrong since I didn't re-read everything you tried, and you might not need any help if you like the final tune.
> But it seems that you can optimize the measurements, in order to not waste too much time on minor things, just my 2 cts.
> 
> ...


Spend a good part of Sunday morning making measurements. I definitely have data, but I am not sure I derived information from it.

The channels are:

1&4: 3.5" Coaxial in the Dash
2&5: 6.5" Wool and Paper Driver in the front doors
3: 10" in a sealed enclosure under the rear seat of the truck cab

Sides off. 2-way front with Sub.
Crossed at 70Hz and 300Hz for consistency with previous measurements.

Six measurements were made for each driver, with and without processing "active". Left and right ear positions for the 3 head positions. those 6 measurements were averaged.

First up the 3.5" drivers:

*Channel 1 (Left Dash):*

DSP on (PURPLE Trace) declines at about 5dB/octave from about 500Hz to 10KHz. DSP off (RED Trace) holds a lot closer to flat.



*Channel 4 (Right Dash):*

DSP on (GREEN Trace) is close to flat from 350Hz to 900Hz and then declines. DSP off is not what I would consider better.




The 6/5" drivers:

*Channel 2 (Left Door):*

DSP on (BLUE Trace) and DSP off (PURPLE Trace) look close to the same. 



*Channel 5 (Right Door):* 

DSP on (RED Trace) looks better and more linear than the DSP off (GREEN Trace).



*Channel 8 (Sub):* 

DSP on (PURPLE Trace) looks about 3dB hotter than the DSP off (GREEN Trace).



SO, no intelligent observations from me by taking the data.

It does appear that the levels are our of whack prior to starting a tune if I am using the AUX in on the MS-8 with sweeps rather than PN from the hidden menu Output identifier

As a reminder, the levels I got then looked like this. They look well balanced and it looked like the obvious lo/high cross should be at 300Hz.



I have changed the sub level a couple of times, but not for the 3.5's or the 6.5's. Those are exactly at the same amp gain as in the picture above.

Looking at the levels using sweeps, it appears that the levels need to be closer before doing a tune. I plan to lower the 6.5 and sub levels.

*DSP on*




*DSP off*




Before I adjust the levels, I want to measure again with a much higher crossover between the 6.5's and the 3.5's to see how linear the MS-8 can keep the 6.5s


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

dengland said:


> SO, no intelligent observations from me by taking the data.
> It does appear that the levels are our of whack prior to starting a tune if I am using the AUX in on the MS-8 with sweeps rather than PN from the hidden menu Output identifier
> As a reminder, the levels I got then looked like this. They look well balanced and it looked like the obvious lo/high cross should be at 300Hz.


Agree it almost looks like white/pink noise difference.
I never measured the noise form ms8 so I don’t know (maybe it’s white?).
But I remember it was a pain to use the hidden menu compared to simple sweeps.
I'm also surprised by the levels (135db on sub?), do you have a calibrated mic?

For the dsp on/off it’s really strange, I mean the big steps at each XO.
Ms8 has a lot of juice to boost/cut, here it seems it did almost nothing on the overall shape.
Did you measure the exact same calibration with same amp settings etc?



dengland said:


> I have changed the sub level a couple of times, but not for the 3.5's or the 6.5's. Those are exactly at the same amp gain as in the picture above.
> Looking at the levels using sweeps, it appears that the levels need to be closer before doing a tune. I plan to lower the 6.5 and sub levels.
> 
> Before I adjust the levels, I want to measure again with a much higher crossover between the 6.5's and the 3.5's to see how linear the MS-8 can keep the 6.5s


A bit hard to read since you changed the scale, but for the dsp on/off the ms8 seems to do a good job on L/R match, especially midbass.
How do you like the sound? It looks painful but maybe it;s ok?

Based on these I'd say:
- be sure to do all measures in the same session if you don't have a calibrated mic (or calibrate it with an spl meter)
- try -15/-20db on sub & midbass before Cal
- try no smoothing, or psycho, or var to get all details, to decide on XO, to find modals etc (and nulls with L+R that is missing here)
- are you sure your 3.5" can accept playing that low boosted at 300hz? I would try at least 400
- use the ms8/jbl target as reference instead of Hanatsu for now (Hanatsu would be used for EQ later)
- if you kept all independent sweeps, you can try different averaging method, like only ear sides, or 4/2, or a mix to see the difference with the 6.
Don’t forget to use no smoothing before averaging, or you would double smooth.
(Also, for sub and midbass you can probably use only 2 ear sweeps to save time)
Then check distortion for the XO points
And phase before/after, that's where the ms8 should do a lot.

I would also add that the most important is the L/R deviation/summing/time coherence, more than the target match.
For the target you can play with EQ and your ears.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Elgrosso said:


> Agree it almost looks like white/pink noise difference.
> I never measured the noise form ms8 so I don’t know (maybe it’s white?).
> But I remember it was a pain to use the hidden menu compared to simple sweeps.
> I'm also surprised by the levels (135db on sub?), do you have a calibrated mic?


First off, thanks for the time you are taking. I really appreciate it. 

I was a bit surprised by the levels as well. AUX in is definitely hotter than the input from the head unit.

I do have a calibrated mic. UMIK-1. I was using the Narrow 0 degree calibration file.



> For the dsp on/off it’s really strange, I mean the big steps at each XO.
> Ms8 has a lot of juice to boost/cut, here it seems it did almost nothing on the overall shape.
> Did you measure the exact same calibration with same amp settings etc?


No changes whatsoever on the amps or calibration files. MS-8 Vol was at -10dB.

For these measurements, the 6.5 and 3.5 amp levels are from 6/18 or before. So, I have several runs of measurements at those levels in earlier posts.



> A bit hard to read since you changed the scale, but for the dsp on/off the ms8 seems to do a good job on L/R match, especially midbass.
> How do you like the sound? It looks painful but maybe it;s ok?
> 
> Based on these I'd say:
> ...


I do still have all of the files before the averaging, so I could redo the averaging.

Since the measurements I posted, I have lowered the midbass by ~15dB and adjusted the sub. That tune was very strange. 400Hz - 1K was higher than the low end. I did not take much in the way of measurements.

I plan to get out today and repeat the measurements with a wider active range of the 6.5's in the doors (60-1K) and the new lower level. I want to get a better look at what the MS-8 can/will do to those.

Thanks again for the help.


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

Over the past year of calibrating and recalibrating a few dozen times I found gold. 
Sub gain maxed out so it won't boost it. After cal I bring it back down to just before clipping. 

Mids and tweeters with the gain all the way down and bring them up to 2v ish after cal. 

Crossovers are all -24
25-80
80-2000


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Elgrosso said:


> Agree it almost looks like white/pink noise difference.
> I never measured the noise form ms8 so I don’t know (maybe it’s white?).
> But I remember it was a pain to use the hidden menu compared to simple sweeps.
> I'm also surprised by the levels (135db on sub?), do you have a calibrated mic?


I just noticed that this was not in the main MS-8 thread. I was a little self-conscience taking up so much room there.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

DDFusionV2 said:


> Over the past year of calibrating and recalibrating a few dozen times I found gold.
> Sub gain maxed out so it won't boost it. After cal I bring it back down to just before clipping.
> 
> Mids and tweeters with the gain all the way down and bring them up to 2v ish after cal.
> ...


I was about 1/2 way through remeasuring when I took a break and saw your post. It took a lot of self control not to stop and try it right then and there. I will definitely be giving that a shot tonight.

To clarify, what size speaker do you have playing 80-2000?


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## DDFusionV2 (Jul 11, 2016)

6.5..


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

dengland said:


> I plan to get out today and repeat the measurements with a wider active range of the 6.5's in the doors (60-1K) and the new lower level. I want to get a better look at what the MS-8 can/will do to those.


Here comes another set of data.

2-Way front with Sub

Subsonic: 20Hz/6dB slope
Sub/Front Cross: 60Hz/24dB slope
Front Lo/Hi Cross: 1000Hz/24dB slope
Side Hi Pass: NONE
MS-8 Level during calibration: -35 

Sub LPF=125. Sub Volume = 10 O'clock.

Compared to the 7-10-2016 data, the mid and sub amp levels were reduced. Levels of the 3.5" were held constant. 

I think this time I can get more information from the data. Some of that comes from comparing to the 7-10-2016 data.

Note that the overall volume is lower today, yet exact same MS-8 master volume, same level out of the computer for the sweeps.

First up the 3.5" drivers:

*Channel 1 (Left Dash) and Chanel 4 (right Dash):*

DSP ON clearly lowers the level of the 3.5" drivers. RED and GOLD traces are with DSP OFF and AQUA and RED are with the DSP ON. 



Next are the 6.5" drivers.

*Channel 2 (Left Door):*

DSP Off (BLUE Trace) and DSP ON (PURPLE Trace) do not look as close to the same as they did with the smaller response window. . 



*Channel 5 (Right Door):*

DSP Off (PURPLE Trace) and DSP ON (GREEN Trace) 


*Channel 8 (Sub): *

DSP on (PURPLE Trace) looks about 10dB hotter than the DSP off (Aqua Trace). Last time it was 3dB hotter with the DSP ON. So, in both cases, the MS-8 is raising the sub. That tells me that I need to raise the sub HIGHER than it was on 7-10.





Elgrosso said:


> Based on these I'd say:
> - try -15/-20db on sub & midbass before Cal


The above basically is what you suggested.

As a comparison point, I measured with the output ID (s/b Pink Noise) from the hidden menu and got the following:



Sub level is not too far off even thought the MS-8 boosted it greatly. Doors are way below where I think they should be before any DSP help. The 3.5" traces were nearly identical, so I only showed one of them.

Going back to what I measure through the HU (not AUX)



Comparing HU sweep against the individual drivers swept through AUX in on MS-8. 



It is not a spike between 400HZ and 1.2K, it is missing sound from 100-500Hz.

Is this something on the input side from the HU to the MS-8? I am summing front and rear to get ParkSense tones and a stronger signal. 6 signals all together.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Looks like you're on the right track! Better than before no?
At least you clearly see what it does.
So now you can help it a bit, by increasing midbass like you said (+7db?) and maybe sub (but it handles it fine, sub level has big impact on the cal algortithm, so just try several)
Did you check the phases/distortion graph?

About the HU summing, I never used it so I can't say anything. Maybe you'll find good infos in the big thread.
But,
On the comparison hu/sweep, it looks like you have a modal around 450hz (that you would see on non smoothed), and I guess the ms8 tries to fill it by boosting this area too much, so you get a peak around 700hz on both midbass and midranges. 
it gives this strange effect between 400/1.2k.
You can fix it with eq, but it won't be very clean (too much overlap).
With ms8 you can't specify different XO per driver, so here I'd suggest to use around 1800hz between midbass and midranges. This should clean the 800hz peak, well maybe...
Or lower than 300hz if the coax can accept it (I doubt it).
Then adjust the sub 55hz peak with EQ, and boost below 40hz if it can accept it.
same over 5k to flat it out a bit, but with rta this time since it's more tricky for highs.

But you didn't say how it sounds?
Because it should be the real judge.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Tried to figure out some input summing things but nothing was obvious to me.

Signal from the rears is stronger than the signal from the front dash and front doors.

Going to regroup this AM and try a tune without the HU to separate input from output.



DDFusionV2 said:


> Over the past year of calibrating and recalibrating a few dozen times I found gold.
> Sub gain maxed out so it won't boost it. After cal I bring it back down to just before clipping.
> 
> Mids and tweeters with the gain all the way down and bring them up to 2v ish after cal.
> ...



Since I was playing around, I went ahead quickly did this. Just blindly returning the 6.5's and 3.5's to ~2V, it did not sound good. I did not measure to see why.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Elgrosso said:


> Looks like you're on the right track! Better than before no?
> At least you clearly see what it does.
> So now you can help it a bit, by increasing midbass like you said (+7db?) and maybe sub (but it handles it fine, sub level has big impact on the cal algortithm, so just try several)
> Did you check the phases/distortion graph?


I have not checked any phase/distortion with REW. Not sure I know what to do for that. I will look into it.



> On the comparison hu/sweep, it looks like you have a modal around 450hz (that you would see on non smoothed), and I guess the ms8 tries to fill it by boosting this area too much, so you get a peak around 700hz on both midbass and midranges.
> it gives this strange effect between 400/1.2k.
> You can fix it with eq, but it won't be very clean (too much overlap).
> With ms8 you can't specify different XO per driver, so here I'd suggest to use around 1800hz between midbass and midranges. This should clean the 800hz peak, well maybe...
> ...


Thanks with the XO help. I have been trying to change one thing at a time since there are so many variables in play at a time. 3 amp levels, 2 XO points, etc. XOs seem to be the thing to figure out 1st. Fs of the 3.5 is 115Hz from the spec sheet. Not sure that provides data or not. I thought read somewhere not to cross below 2 times that value.

Here is the picture without smoothing.



Heading out to the truck to try and take the HU out of the equation....

Thanks again.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Quick post. I bypassed the HU and tuned only using the AUX in.

My theory of the 6 inputs contributing to problem in NO GOOD.

RED trace is the AUX sweeps.
GREEN trace is the unaltered (not adjusted flat) HU output sweep going through the AUX based tune.



Still the same overall shape as before.

Crosses were at 60 and 300Hz for consistency.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Elgrosso said:


> On the comparison hu/sweep, it looks like you have a modal around 450hz (that you would see on non smoothed), and I guess the ms8 tries to fill it by boosting this area too much, so you get a peak around 700hz on both midbass and midranges.
> it gives this strange effect between 400/1.2k.
> You can fix it with eq, but it won't be very clean (too much overlap).
> *With ms8 you can't specify different XO per driver, so here I'd suggest to use around 1800hz between midbass and midranges.* This should clean the 800hz peak, well maybe...
> ...


I was able to circle back to try the 1800Hz cross. Strangely no change in shape. There was a change in amplitude.

Graph below shows the 350 cross versus the 1800 cross. Variable smoothing was used to make the graph more readable.

RED trace is the crossover @ 1800Hz. GREEN trace is the crossover @ 350Hz. About a 6dB difference using the exact same levels.



If I align the levels of the low end, you can clearly see the shape of the curve is unaltered.



For a long trip in the truck later in the later in the day, I reverted back to the 350Hz cross and turned the sides back on. Sides turned on did not alter the tune.

I have avoided answering how it sounds for a couple of weeks.... With some EQ, I can get the bottom end sounding nice and full. That was a previous complaint of mine. Even with knocking down the 300Hz to 1kHz peaks, it still sounds a bit tiring. It is definitely usable. I am going to remeasure to see how the EQ adjustments actually effected the curve.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

A few changes with the RAM since the last post.

In late August, I picked up a set of Hertz HSK 165XLs from RPR. (Thanks Rich!)



Getting the 3.5's out of the dash was a positive move. I put the HT28s in 1st and left the Silver Flutes in the door. That change was a positive one. I crossed at 2.2KHz.

A few days later I got the 165XLs installed in the doors and retuned.

Not a bad job trying to match the MS-8 Curve



SQ was pretty good. I had 4 hours in the car and did some solid listening. Definitely sounds better than it ever has. I still think there is some real room to get better. Some songs sound outstanding and others sound good. It is the mid-range that has a bit of an issue that I most identify.

I finally ran the 0 gauge power wire to replace the 4 gauge.

Since I had things torn up, I went ahead and added KnoKnoise Kolossus Edition to the back wall.



I installed the PPI 600.2 to give the 165XLs some more juice. 

I subsequently had a nice poker win the next day.… The money started burning a hole in my pocket! That accelerated ordering the Helix PRO. 

I could have dialed in the MS-8 with the 2nd PPI and lived with it for a while.

So ends my journey with the MS-8.


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## brodiem (Jun 28, 2016)

dengland,

I'll be doing an install in my 14 Sport CC next week (w/ Alpine premium). I think if I followed the thread correctly, since you originally posted wiring diagrams for the factory integration, some corrections were made. I'm pretty uncertain at this point which set of diagrams are correct, and wondered if you had something current? Most people reference the techauthority site, but the diagrams have been removed it seems. I have been using this one for reference, but they don't appear to match yours:

revbase.com /BBBMotor/Wd/DownloadPdf?id=1067374

Could I also ask what you ended up with for input channels? It looks like you only used 6 channels. I would have figured the sub channels would help fill in the low end, no? Otherwise I guess I'm just curious why you didn't opt to include 8 channels to help build the strongest input signaling. Thanks for posting the progress updates!


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

brodiem said:


> dengland,
> 
> I'll be doing an install in my 14 Sport CC next week (w/ Alpine premium). I think if I followed the thread correctly, since you originally posted wiring diagrams for the factory integration, some corrections were made. I'm pretty uncertain at this point which set of diagrams are correct, and wondered if you had something current? Most people reference the techauthority site, but the diagrams have been removed it seems. I have been using this one for reference, but they don't appear to match yours:
> 
> ...


Not sure what happened to the Tech Authority site. I will have to study the rebase diagram. I just don't have time tonight. Sorry. 

Post 64 was the best understanding of the inputs and outputs that I have. I swapped the polarity of the 4 of the inputs and 2 of the outputs. Those are highlighted in yellow in the table.

Front signals (doors and dash) are much weaker than the rears. Like an order of magnitude. I am relooking at things now that I have the Helix Pro. The MS-8 summed front and rear together, so it was less of a deal to me. Helix does not create the rears with "Logic 7" type of info.

I can confirm that I did not use the sub inputs. I have been thinking that may have been a blunder. There is a slope down from 50Hz that may have been filtering on the doors. I expect to experiment in the next couple of weeks with the sub signals. 

Sorry for the less than thorough response.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

brodiem said:


> dengland,
> 
> I'll be doing an install in my 14 Sport CC next week (w/ Alpine premium). I think if I followed the thread correctly, since you originally posted wiring diagrams for the factory integration, some corrections were made. I'm pretty uncertain at this point which set of diagrams are correct, and wondered if you had something current? Most people reference the techauthority site, but the diagrams have been removed it seems. I have been using this one for reference, but they don't appear to match yours:
> 
> ...


I went through and compared the revbase to the tech authority and they match pin numbers. 

I would start by trusting the diagrams. Let the audio tell you if there are phase shifts. There could be a couple of things going on for me and what I think I see. Easiest answer is in my multitude of connections I have reversed something and don't realize it. There could be some phase shifts going through the factory HW (on purpose).

If you start a build thread, I will follow along. Everyone loves pictures, so don't be stingy.


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## brodiem (Jun 28, 2016)

dengland said:


> I went through and compared the revbase to the tech authority and they match pin numbers.
> 
> I would start by trusting the diagrams. Let the audio tell you if there are phase shifts. There could be a couple of things going on for me and what I think I see. Easiest answer is in my multitude of connections I have reversed something and don't realize it. There could be some phase shifts going through the factory HW (on purpose).
> 
> If you start a build thread, I will follow along. Everyone loves pictures, so don't be stingy.


I had just realized in the mean time that the techauthority diagrams were still available (for a fee), so I had gone ahead and got a temporary subscription to verify wiring. Yeah, I'll get a build thread going here shortly, I'm just about to get started on the install. Thanks for checking out the diagrams.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

brodiem said:


> I had just realized in the mean time that the techauthority diagrams were still available (for a fee), so I had gone ahead and got a temporary subscription to verify wiring. Yeah, I'll get a build thread going here shortly, I'm just about to get started on the install. Thanks for checking out the diagrams.


Did you make any progress?

I think it was good advice to follow MFG diagrams. I had some non-obvious (to me) things going on which made me go back and check the phase with my connections.

I drove a small speaker from the factory amp. The HU was fed from AudioTools App, speaker polarity test.

As a result I normalized Right dash, Front Right door, and Rear Right door. I believe the diagrams are correct.

I still believe the Left Rear door is INCORRECT in the diagrams. I left those connections reversed.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

*Helix PRO DSP era*

In September I replaced the MS-8 with the Helix PRO DSP. Slowly, I have been working to determine how best to set it up since it is basically a blank canvas.

Today I installed Hertz HCX-165 in the rear doors.

Summary of EQ is as follows:

PPI 600.2 driving Hertz HV 165XLs in the front doors
PPI 900.4 driving Hertz HT 28 tweeters in the dash and the HCX-165 Coaxial in the rear doors.


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## brodiem (Jun 28, 2016)

dengland said:


> Did you make any progress?
> 
> I think it was good advice to follow MFG diagrams. I had some non-obvious (to me) things going on which made me go back and check the phase with my connections.
> 
> ...



I've made quite a bit of progress, there's a build thread here


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Here is the audio routing in place:



HT-28s in the dash setup:



165XL in the front doors setup:



HCX-165s in the rear doors setup:


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Director installed.



Now I can control the bass from the front seat and have 22 profiles.

I still need to work some sort of a bracket to keep the Director at the right angle and not moving as I press the screen and knob.

Running wire is such a PITA.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Been living with this tune for a couple of weeks. 



Measured using Hanatsu's correlated Pink Noise captured in RTA modes (1/48th octave). 

MB is crossed at 61Hz
Tweeters are crossed at ~2KHz
Sub crossed at 50Hz

While the MB is crossed at 61Hz, there is a fair amount of EQing being done.



It is definitely sounding the best it ever has.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Deleted duplicate post


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

dengland said:


> Been living with this tune for a couple of weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yikes. 
Couple tips. Raise your sub crossover. Whats your sub look like full range? You definitely need to fill the gap between sub and midbass. 

That gap at 2.8khz also looks pretty drastic. When you say these are your crossovers. Do you mean electrical or acoustic?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Yikes.
> Couple tips. Raise your sub crossover. Whats your sub look like full range? You definitely need to fill the gap between sub and midbass.
> 
> That gap at 2.8khz also looks pretty drastic. When you say these are your crossovers. Do you mean electrical or acoustic?


Thanks Jscoyne. I appreciate the advice. I cannot find my full range sub measurement, I will have to remeasure and post this afternoon.

The amps do not have crossovers enabled. The crossover numbers mentioned above are set in the Helix PRO. I think you would still consider that electrical.

I had raised the sub crossover a bit (up to 80Hz) since measuring what was posted above. Yesterday I got distracted with measuring the horrid starting signals rather than measuring the resultant curve with the higher sub crossover.

Curves below are single input signal with no filters or EQ applied by the Helix, played through the Hertz midbass in the corresponding door measured in the driver's seat. Factory HU imparts some serious EQ. I know I need to give up on that and just accept no ParkSense, Nav, steering wheel controls, etc.





The graph below is the source I am currently using for the front doors. It is Front Low inputs and a Full range rear inputs 50/50.



Thanks again for the advice. I will try and spend some car time today. I have a home construction project getting in the way.


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

The first is my 3in midranges after eq is done. They are in kickpanels.

The second and third is my stereo integrity Tm65s in fully deadened doors. The spacing is 5db each I believe. They are more midbass drivers so they naturally drop off harsh at 2khz or so.

The measurements are done with a freq sweeps and averaging different spots. Not using pink noise. 



Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

> Whats your sub look like full range? You definitely need to fill the gap between sub and midbass.


This is the Sub response measured today.

No filtering in the Helix DSP PRO.
Amp had a 120Hz LPF 
Pink noise and RTA used to capture the response from the driver's seat



Zoomed in:


I will have to see if the input signal is band limited. I can do that fairly easy with the DSP. I did not think of it until I started typing this up. I will probably use sweeps since I do not know if the source Pink Noise falls off below 30Hz. (Again it could also be the band pass of the input signal.)


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

Im a little confused on everything. Whats your lmb and rmb look like full range with no eq applied?

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Im a little confused on everything. Whats your lmb and rmb look like full range with no eq applied?


Sorry for the delay....It is a mess!



The above is from sweeps versus the Pink Noise RTA of the previous posts. 5 measurement take and then averaged for each.

I have an FiiO X3 coming today. I can bypass the HU completely and see what might be modal versus an artifact of the HU EQ or the way the (7) inputs are summing the DSP from the HU.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

*Bypassing the HU and using digital in to the Helix DSP Pro*

Measurements were taken using the REW RTA function. Pink noise was played from the Fiio X3. Pink Noise file is 192Kbs -3dBFS WAV file from audiocheck.net.

High Quality Pink Noise | wav mp3 Audio Files Download

A 1K Crossover was applied to the tweeters for protection. The following was measured from the individual drivers before any adjustments. Smoothing is 1/1. Black line is an MS-8 curve that has a bit more bottom end than the Andy curve.



Strangely, the tweeters were low. Not what I usually see going thorough the HU.

*Looking at the individual pairs*

Tweeters

Level is pretty good between left and right. At about 4.8KHz the tweeters are about 4.8dB lower than the reference curve.



Midbass

Level is frequency dependent between left and right. 



To see if it was modal I measured from the passenger seat.




Left looks like measured Right and vice versa if I swap seats,



Not sure what the heck that is going to do as I try and fix it for the Driver's seat.

Subwoofer (no attenuation)

Sub has a 125Hz LPF at the Amp. 



Not sure if it is the source or not, but it falls off quicker on the bottom end than I measured using the output diagnostics on the MS-8


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## Nefariousram15 (Feb 18, 2017)

I thank you for all your time and effort. You have convinced me to seek out a professional to tune my setup.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Nefariousram15 said:


> I thank you for all your time and effort. You have convinced me to seek out a professional to tune my setup.


I busted out laughing when I saw this.

I have managed to convince some not to even try! I would be all set if I could convince myself to give up.

In all sincerity, I appreciate the kind words. 

Please report back how you make out.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

New toy ...



Install planned for this weekend.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

dengland said:


> New toy ...
> 
> 
> Install planned for this weekend.


Ooops... I needed the AP4-CH41 not AP4-CH21


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## Hemi007 (Mar 7, 2017)

dengland said:


> Ooops... I needed the AP4-CH41 not AP4-CH21


Yes you do! . They are out of stock everywhere . . . 2-4 week wait!


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Found -41 last night on eBay. Same $249. I think I got #5 out of 6 that were listed. It has shipped and scheduled for Wed delivery. So, I lost a week.


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## Hemi007 (Mar 7, 2017)

Good on 'ya! These are going to sell as fast as they come in . . . Including one for me, too!


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## Gurpreet (Sep 6, 2011)

dengland said:


> Found -41 last night on eBay. Same $249. I think I got #5 out of 6 that were listed. It has shipped and scheduled for Wed delivery. So, I lost a week.




Your lucky. I'm still waiting for mine!

I've followed your build. Great job. I have the same truck and plan on starting my install in the next couple weeks. Look forward to your review on the


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Gurpreet said:


> Your lucky. I'm still waiting for mine!
> 
> I've followed your build. Great job. I have the same truck and plan on starting my install in the next couple weeks. Look forward to your review on the


Thanks for the kind words.

Make sure you start a build thread too.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Got the right one a while back.



Not cool that it came postage due....



Did the install.





I ran 2 more pairs of wires from the back to the front for a possible 3 way if I ever get motivated enough to put the tweeters in the door.

The PAC has the ability to put front and rear chimes all in the front channels. For now I left rear chimes in the rear.

In testing, I have turned the HU volume to max without hearing any noticeable distortion.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Starting points of the mids was a bit raggedy. That big center console is really wreaking havoc on a balanced response.



and 



I modeled some initial minor corrections using a couple of parametric EQs in REW.

For the LEFT MID these filters were applied to the above signal:


The predicted curve was:



The Actual measured result was:



For the RIGHT MID these filters were applied to the above signal:


The predicted curve was:



The Actual measured result was:



Both could use some additional adjustments. However, in another THREAD Jscoyne2 commented that I could have some sound proofing issues that were affecting my measurements. Using the signal generator in REW, I slowly followed the frequency response curve of the left mid and discovered some significant rattles that were measurable in the response. Especially that huge dip at 146Hz in the LEFT MID. No more tweaks until I take the doors apart and do a better job with deadening.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Sub looks pretty good.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Finally got around to adding some polyfil to the sub enclosure. I think I used about 1/2 lb. I was a bit unsure how tight to pack it. It made a measureable difference. Especially, between 20 and 30Hz. Pretty steep drop from 21Hz to 20Hz.

Green is with the polyfil.




If I were to do 1lb/cuft, I need a bit more in the enclosure.

Enclosure is NetAudio with 0.8 CuFT.

https://www.netaudiowf.com/product/2009-2017-dodge-ram-crew-cab-sub-box-single-low-passenger-side/


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

So hows your tuning process coming along with the sub enclosure? How are you liking the Helix DSP Pro?

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


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## Swaglife81 (Oct 15, 2016)

I read the first 3 pages because of the tuning aspect. No matter what it seems audiophiles always end up with a Helix even when happy with other brand DSPs. 

What was the reason you added polyfill. Seems like it did alot for 20-21hz but made the 20-30hz range less smooth but more output. 2-4db increase in the 20-30hz range. I'm just wondering where the need to add polyfill was at. You have dsp and can use a subsonic filter for that 22hz and below range. Or were you wanting more output in the 30+hz range.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Two comments in a single day... heavy traffic for my thread!

Hi guys.



Black Rain said:


> So hows your tuning process coming along with the sub enclosure? How are you liking the Helix DSP Pro?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


I have not done much lately. I am about to try the 3.5s in the dash location and set the tweeters aside for a bit before deciding on 3-way. Spade lugs that would fit the HL70s arrived on Monday, but they don't drop right into the holes in the dash. That has slowed me down a bit.

Honestly, it sounds good enough and I am a bit hesitant to mess it up.

Weather should start cooling off a bit. I may get a bit more motivated.



Swaglife81 said:


> I read the first 3 pages because of the tuning aspect. No matter what it seems audiophiles always end up with a Helix even when happy with other brand DSPs.
> 
> What was the reason you added polyfill. Seems like it did alot for 20-21hz but made the 20-30hz range less smooth but more output. 2-4db increase in the 20-30hz range. I'm just wondering where the need to add polyfill was at. You have dsp and can use a subsonic filter for that 22hz and below range. Or were you wanting more output in the 30+hz range.


I chuckle a bit at being in the audiophile group. I don't consider myself there. I like the Helix because I can tweak everything. I think the MS-8 was definitely hobbled by the starting signals. I think I am a bit hobbled with my ability to tune.

The roll off was greater than I thought it should be. I had read that a small enclosure would do better with the polyfil. I think the enclosure is just a bit small for the sub I have. I was surprise to see as much of a difference in the curve as I did. 

I wish I had measurements of my 2004 Tundra. It sounded great to me with a pair of 8's in a sealed enclosure specifically built for the Tundra. The single 10 in the Ram never quite measured up.

I still need to go back and flatten the response. See the note above about getting more motivated when the weather cools a bit.


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Spade Lugs?.... what spade lugs for the HL300s? I am confused.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Where in FLORIDA are you? Maybe I can get a demo and look at the work?

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

Black Rain said:


> Spade Lugs?.... what spade lugs for the HL300s? I am confused.




I am in Rockledge. We are close.

I regularly head down to Club 52 in Melbourne on Sundays to play poker. That would be a pretty good place for show and tell some time. PM me and I will send you an email address.


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## WilliamS (Oct 1, 2016)

First of all, holy cow. 2nd, holy cow. Im about to start my ms8 build and notice you didnt get it to really do what you needed. My setup is not alpine so I hope my signal is easier to tame.

3rd, you are in Rockledge, small world as I was born there a short 35 years ago. Born in Wuesthoff Memorial. 

Cant wait to start my build and I hope it goes better!


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## vinnny (Dec 28, 2011)

I have very similar setup to what you had previously (2014 Ram 8.4 Alpine to MS8). I have never been happy with the setup and now I am looking at stepping up to the Helix with input from the AP4-CH41. I noticed on the AP4-CH41 product page that there is an optical option ($50) which could feed the Helix. Did you use RCA or Optical? Just curious why you chose one vs. the other. Thanks!


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

vinnny said:


> I have very similar setup to what you had previously (2014 Ram 8.4 Alpine to MS8). I have never been happy with the setup and now I am looking at stepping up to the Helix with input from the AP4-CH41. I noticed on the AP4-CH41 product page that there is an optical option ($50) which could feed the Helix. Did you use RCA or Optical? Just curious why you chose one vs. the other. Thanks!


I did RCA. I am not sure I thought much about optical. Does the optical do 4 channels? I wanted front and rears for the Parksense tones (even though I have only been running a front stage for the entire time I had the PAC unit.)

I never had any hum that I needed to isolate. Optical would not be better if there is nothing wrong with the electrical signal. I never observed anything wrong with the electrical signal.

RCAs would also give me an ability to troubleshoot easier. (I can break the signal in more places.)


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## vinnny (Dec 28, 2011)

Thanks for responding!

Did you use the AP4-CH41 with the MS8 at all? Any reason to think I would hear an improvement by getting the MS8 a line level input from the AP4-CH41 instead of speaker-level after the factory amp like I have now?


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

vinnny said:


> Thanks for responding!
> 
> Did you use the AP4-CH41 with the MS8 at all? Any reason to think I would hear an improvement by getting the MS8 a line level input from the AP4-CH41 instead of speaker-level after the factory amp like I have now?


No. Just the Helix. 

I think life would have been a lot easier for the MS-8 if had the AP4 in the mix. I never got the good results that others got. I think at least in part to the crazy EQ curve on the speaker level outs. It was hard to find the right combination of fader position. Rear signal was the strongest and most complete. Front was split between the doors and dash.

I have thought about putting the MS-8 back in just to see how it would EQ with a better input signal, but that would be a fair amount of work. I do miss having the a driver setting, passanger setting, and compromise setting.


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## vinnny (Dec 28, 2011)

In the AP4-CH41 interface, did you disable the 3-band eq or change the minimum volume level? Seems like I should disable the eq if its feeding a DSP but I can't seem to find info on this.


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## HOIRiIZON (Apr 3, 2016)

dengland said:


> Since the graphs were not totally evident, I took a different approach to determining if I had a phase issue.
> 
> I used two different tools. The 1st is an MP3 file that has information recorded in and out of phase.
> 
> ...


You should have just bought the PAC Audio amp pro and then you don’t cut any wires lol. Then you could have went optical to the DSP.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

HOIRiIZON said:


> You should have just bought the PAC Audio amp pro and then you don’t cut any wires lol. Then you could have went optical to the DSP.


If it would have existed when I started I would have! :>)


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## WilliamS (Oct 1, 2016)

HOIRiIZON said:


> You should have just bought the PAC Audio amp pro and then you don’t cut any wires lol. Then you could have went optical to the DSP.


Isnt the AmpPro only for the factory amplified systems that the radio is set for low level outputs?


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## HOIRiIZON (Apr 3, 2016)

dengland said:


> If it would have existed when I started I would have! :>)


Ok that makes sense. It’s been out for about 8 months here.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

vinnny said:


> In the AP4-CH41 interface, did you disable the 3-band eq or change the minimum volume level? Seems like I should disable the eq if its feeding a DSP but I can't seem to find info on this.


It was either disabled or flat. It has been too long since the install. I know there is a newer version of the SW for the interface that I have not bothered to flash. It could be either version 6 or 7. I did the install on March 17, 2017. V7 came out on March 14, so likely V7.

I did NOT change the minimum volume level.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

WilliamS said:


> Isnt the AmpPro only for the factory amplified systems that the radio is set for low level outputs?


I think that is a true statement. I am not 100% sure why the AmpPro requires the Alpine upgrade (and leaving the factory amp connected). It is grabbing the Audio out of the HU and reading the CAN bus to know what to do to it (volume, warning indicators, etc.. I think the audio out of the HU is at a fixed level.


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## dengland (May 25, 2014)

And last night I traded the truck in on a 2020 Limited. I left all the equipment in there and now I get to start over. I wonder if it will be easier this time....


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