# USD waveguides in Dodge Ram crewcab



## scoott

So I bought a set of used waveguides with selenium drivers with the idea of trying them in my 2012 Dodge ram crewcab. It's a semi-work truck that I use for business and hauling dirt bikes around.

So the questions are how much midbass to keep up with the horns. A 6.5, 8, 10 or ???? 

should I run a midbass in the door to 200hz, a midrange in the kick to 800-1,000hz? Or just run the door midbass up to 800-1,000hz. 

I don't want to rebuid the doors, especially since my 92 SHO got it's stereo ripped off. So stealth is important as well as tough. It is a work truck, and as a landlord, wheat farmer, race promoter , it will get used and dirty.

Could I run 6.5's in both front and back doors, let the rears go up to 4,000or 5,000hz and call them rear fills. While augmenting the midbass?

Or are the USD waveguides not worth the trouble?

Any help/thoughts appreciated.


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## basshead

It look like you have 6x9 in the doors, I would use that

A good 6x9 like the Hybrid Audio Imagine will have the same surface area as an 8", just don't use the tweeter and put the phase plug in instead. Solidly seal any holes in the doors, heavily deaden them and you will be surprise by those 6x9.

I would only run the 6x9 with the horn. 

you could pair another set of 6x9 in the read doors, but you will need to have time alignment set to make sure it doesn't cancel out the front one.

will you run a sub?


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## scoott

basshead said:


> It look like you have 6x9 in the doors, I would use that
> 
> A good 6x9 like the Hybrid Audio Imagine will have the same surface area as an 8", just don't use the tweeter and put the phase plug in instead. Solidly seal any holes in the doors, heavily deaden them and you will be surprise by those 6x9.
> 
> I would only run the 6x9 with the horn.
> 
> you could pair another set of 6x9 in the read doors, but you will need to have time alignment set to make sure it doesn't cancel out the front one.
> 
> will you run a sub?


 I have 2 Boston Acoustics pro 12.5 lf that I plan to put under the back seat in 1 cu. ft /ea. sealed enclosure( NOT a foxbox!)

If I can fit an 8" in the doors, I would rather go that way than a 6x9 because of sonics AND good 8"s can be picked up much cheaper.

4 or 5 sets of 8" legatia's for sale on DIYMA between $200-$275 used to bnib.

NO quality 6x9's to be found.

I do have a JBL ms-8 for TA, understand there may be issues with horn application.


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## minbari

basshead said:


> It look like you have 6x9 in the doors, I would use that
> 
> A good 6x9 like the Hybrid Audio Imagine will have the same surface area as an 8", just don't use the tweeter and put the phase plug in instead. Solidly seal any holes in the doors, heavily deaden them and you will be surprise by those 6x9.
> 
> I would only run the 6x9 with the horn.
> 
> you could pair another set of 6x9 in the read doors, but you will need to have time alignment set to make sure it doesn't cancel out the front one.
> 
> will you run a sub?


Image Dynamics makes a damn fine 6x9 as well. 

what you want is something around 92-93db 1w/1m to pair up with HLCDs. anything less and you will need a ****-ton of power for the midbass, go too far the other way and the midbass will ussualy lack bass. (good ol hoffmans)


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## preston

I just did horns in a 2003 Dodge Quad Cab. I went with L8's in the doors and they sounded great and had plenty of volume. Now, I did end up moving to a high efficiency pro audio driver 8" (Beyma) and it did sound better (livelier, more dynamic) but its not like a huge difference. My point being, a set of L8's are a good speaker and would "keep up" just fine. I don't know how the 2012 door is, but the L8's also fit behind the stock trim panel, whereas the giant magnet on the Beyma's forced me to cut open the trim panel and paint and attache a large grille. It looks pretty low key, but nothing is as stealth as stock trim panels. (BTW I have a pair of L8's in fs in the classifieds LOL). 

I went with L4's in the rear doors just because I had them (and an Alpine 12" in the center console).

What worked for me is 8" from 100Hz - 800Hz, horns up from there. The L4's are running from 200-3000Hz wired in mono bridged across a small amplifier with some extra delay on them. I play around a lot with these, flipping one or the other input signal out of phase but I always seem to end up leaving them in phase when I'm done. I'm a huge fan of rear fill, not sure why some people are so against it, I find it enhances the stage. The xover on those rears is not really set in stone, I move it around a bunch but its not that critical.

Back to the doors - for a big truck the doors are pretty flimsy, I have a ****load of dynamat/RAAMat on the outside and inside of the doors and the trim panel, the baffle I built is 3/4" MDF "shimmed" against the rest of the door with 1/2" mdf and screwed and glued and clayed and layered with mat, point being its a pretty solid install, doors are really dead when you do the knocktest. I put some ensolite on top of everything as well. Door holes riveted up with aluminum panels, even the window rails and rollers have some mat on them, and I still can't really play the 8" below 100Hz or I get resonance. So I just wanted to make that point about x-overs. 

I'm really digging the horns though, they seem to work good in a truck. Most people comment on the dynamics of them, which I like, but after listening to them for a few weeks I think the imaging is what's amazing. I tried the dash speakers for awhile and did quite a bit of tuning. They sounded okay but the staging was just never there. I think you would need a-pillar pods to get good imaging and that would lose your stealth.


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## scoott

preston said:


> I just did horns in a 2003 Dodge Quad Cab. I went with L8's in the doors and they sounded great and had plenty of volume. Now, I did end up moving to a high efficiency pro audio driver 8" (Beyma) and it did sound better (livelier, more dynamic) but its not like a huge difference. My point being, a set of L8's are a good speaker and would "keep up" just fine. I don't know how the 2012 door is, but the L8's also fit behind the stock trim panel, whereas the giant magnet on the Beyma's forced me to cut open the trim panel and paint and attache a large grille. It looks pretty low key, but nothing is as stealth as stock trim panels. (BTW I have a pair of L8's in fs in the classifieds LOL).
> 
> I went with L4's in the rear doors just because I had them (and an Alpine 12" in the center console).
> 
> What worked for me is 8" from 100Hz - 800Hz, horns up from there. The L4's are running from 200-3000Hz wired in mono bridged across a small amplifier with some extra delay on them. I play around a lot with these, flipping one or the other input signal out of phase but I always seem to end up leaving them in phase when I'm done. I'm a huge fan of rear fill, not sure why some people are so against it, I find it enhances the stage. The xover on those rears is not really set in stone, I move it around a bunch but its not that critical.
> 
> Back to the doors - for a big truck the doors are pretty flimsy, I have a ****load of dynamat/RAAMat on the outside and inside of the doors and the trim panel, the baffle I built is 3/4" MDF "shimmed" against the rest of the door with 1/2" mdf and screwed and glued and clayed and layered with mat, point being its a pretty solid install, doors are really dead when you do the knocktest. I put some ensolite on top of everything as well. Door holes riveted up with aluminum panels, even the window rails and rollers have some mat on them, and I still can't really play the 8" below 100Hz or I get resonance. So I just wanted to make that point about x-overs.
> 
> I'm really digging the horns though, they seem to work good in a truck. Most people comment on the dynamics of them, which I like, but after listening to them for a few weeks I think the imaging is what's amazing. I tried the dash speakers for awhile and did quite a bit of tuning. They sounded okay but the staging was just never there. I think you would need a-pillar pods to get good imaging and that would lose your stealth.


 Questions-questions-questions!

Which Beyma's did you use?

How close are the L8's ? 10%,20% , 50%?

What would you want for the L8's?

Do you ever get over to the dry side?

Wouldn't ride dirt bikes by chance? ( I have a bribe if you did)

I would LOVE to hear your truck!

Stage height with the horns? Which horns/drivers?

What are you driving each with powerwise? RMS available

Any chance of pics of the front doors and the horns?

And thanks for the comments!

Scott


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## mattyjman

minbari said:


> Image Dynamics makes a damn fine 6x9 as well.
> 
> what you want is something around 92-93db 1w/1m to pair up with HLCDs. anything less and you will need a ****-ton of power for the midbass, go too far the other way and the midbass will ussualy lack bass. (good ol hoffmans)


my 2206h's are 95 db efficient 

but seriously, for the OP, you need to stay in the high sensitivity range like mini said... 

hybrids won't cut it because of lower efficiency... the ID 6x9's are solid, but you are right about being able to pick up some good 8's. a lot of people have had good luck with B&C, 18sound, Beyma, etc. and JBL


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## jpeezy

faitel pro 8's very affordable, and fairly cheap.


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## scoott

mattyjman said:


> my 2206h's are 95 db efficient
> 
> but seriously, for the OP, you need to stay in the high sensitivity range like mini said...
> 
> hybrids won't cut it because of lower efficiency... the ID 6x9's are solid, but you are right about being able to pick up some good 8's. a lot of people have had good luck with B&C, 18sound, Beyma, etc. and JBL


 I am assuming that the 2206h is the pro audio version of the original 1200GTI.

Wonderful speakers. Require a little too much room to use in my dodge ram crewcab. I also love and have old school 1500 gti's and a pair of 1800 gti's in my home theater system for subs.

What would be the highest quality JBL 8's that would fit in the doors? I know how big the magnets on the GTI's are.......no way I'm trying to fit them.


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## subwoofery

Just do horn+midbass - no need for a separate midrange since this is your work truck. 

Get a pair of these Faital 8FE200 (the 4 ohm version), install them and enjoy... 

Kelvin


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## scoott

Comparing specs on :

Hybrid Hat L8 4ohm 88db sen. 40-2,500 fr. 40 fs. 200w rms

Faital 8fe200 4ohm 95db 60-5000fr ? 130w rms

Faital w8n8-200 8ohm 92db 80-5000fr ? 200w rms

Beyma pro8-mi 4ohm 98db 150-7,000 ? 200w rms

Beyma 8br40/n 8ohm 90 35-6,000 ? 50w rms

Dayton rs-225 4ohm 89 35-2,000 ? 80w rms

To my untrained eye, looks like the Faital 8fe200 has the best balance of freq. response vs. power handling vs. efficiency.

Beyma pro8-mi are most efficient with excellent power handling.....but don't go as low. Would you hear the difference between 50hz vs. 150hz?

Or could you give it a nudge with eq because of the high efficiency. 


Planning on cutting the mid asses around 800 to turn it over to the horns.

So has anyone listened to the Faital 8fe200 AND the Beyma pro8-mi? If so, what do you think?

The Hat L8's have the lowest freq. response with the best power handling, but the low sensitivity lowers the overall output.

Love to hear opinions based on experience and subjective listening.


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## minbari

Imho, yes. If it only plays to 150 hz it will sound anemic, loud, but lacking

Sent from my motorola electrify using digital farts


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## thehatedguy

What about the Beyma 8G40 or 8P300Fe?


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## rockin

I'm running USDs with the piezo driver. Was using four 6.5 " Diamond HEX MB (2 in each door) The soundstage was very low with lower freqs being particularly low (per IASCA and I agree)
So I removed the rearmost 6.5 from each door and mounted it in on axis in the kickpanel keeping the forward most 6.5 in each door. 70HZ HP 225HZ LP @ 24db/oct. L-R
Used 3.5" in my dash in the OEM locations 250HZ HP 750LP @24db/oct. L-R
Guides @800+ same X over
What a huge difference in stage height, and it makes all imaging better. Center seems better, too. More focused. I don't know if this is any help to you at all but just thought I'd share my experience (This is my 3rd vehicle with USD guides, second W/ piezos.)

BEFORE







AFTER


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## preston

> Which Beyma's did you use?
> 
> How close are the L8's ? 10%,20% , 50%?
> 
> What would you want for the L8's?
> 
> Do you ever get over to the dry side?
> 
> Wouldn't ride dirt bikes by chance? ( I have a bribe if you did)
> 
> I would LOVE to hear your truck!
> 
> Stage height with the horns? Which horns/drivers?
> 
> What are you driving each with powerwise? RMS available
> 
> Any chance of pics of the front doors and the horns?


I used Beyma 8g40 in 4 ohm version. That's something nice about the Beyma's, most of the pro audio drivers are only 8 ohm which means half the power from your amp. These were recommended by Eric Steven's, not something I though up on my own.
I would say they were a "10%" improvement, although if you think about it even a 10% improvement in your audio is HUGE, so more realistically 3%, but in my mind anything that you definitely notice is worth it. IOW, sometimes I make a change and I don't really hear a difference, or I hear a difference but i'm not sure its better, just different. In this case I definitely noticed an increase in clarity and dynamics, but I wouldn't start gushing and say it was night and day. I mean, the L8's sounded great, its just that the Beyma's were a bit better. But the magnet was huge, even though the mounting depth was the same they presented a big challenge during install. The L8's fit behind the trim panel and the Beymas didn't, not if I wanted to roll my window down anyway.

I'd want $200 firm for the L8's, but I'd include shipping since you're in WA.

I ride mountain bikes all over the state, but I don't have much reason to get to Goldendale ! BIL used to live there but he has moved on.

Horns are Eric "EJS Audio" Stevens full size horns with the Pro driver (this is below the full out Ultra driver). I"m sure someone on here can tell use exactly what OEM driver that is but I"m not sure. Stage height is perfect, they image so much better than the dash mounted speakers. I have a more reference Hybrid system in my Cadillac (kick mids, dash tweets, door woofs) and the truck has better staging and imaging, right on top of the dash, and image is better centered to the driver. I know, some say the center is the center of the car not the center of the driver, but my Cad is centered in the car it seems and always feels biased right to me. Just my preference but the truck feels right in front of me although the stage is a bit narrow until I turn on the rear fill.

I will try to post a pic tonight - one warning, some might feel the horn interferes with the brake pedal, I am used to it and it feels fine although I might add a pedal extension later, but I have 10.5 feet, if you have very large feet you may have more of an issue then I did.

I am feeding 60wrms to the horns, and 300wrms to each mid. But who knows - I don't really listen all that loudly, I have no idea if I really need that much power, but power is cheap so I buy as much as makes sense limited more by size than dollars. I don't really believe in high dollar amplifiers I guess, my whole system is run by those tiny Pioneer PRS-D800 amps except the sub that is getting [email protected] ohms from a Rockford Fosgate Prime amp. I have no idea how much power I"m actually using, but if my ears feel fatigued when I am done listening then I am mad at myself because I don't want to impact my hearing. I already can't hear a damn thing above 10k.


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## preston

Thinking of riding in Wenatchee or Cashmere on Saturday the 25th, but that's a long ways from Goldendale.


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## preston

nice job on those kicks, rockin'. They look very nice, and sounds like they sound nice too.


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## scoott

preston said:


> Thinking of riding in Wenatchee or Cashmere on Saturday the 25th, but that's a long ways from Goldendale.


 I'm busy most weekends with one of two offroad tracks I have. Eddieville or Starvation Ridge.

I understand the loudness issue. I used to limit myself to no more than 3 songs cranked in my 92 SHO. It measured out at 133db set for semi-SQ.
I like it loud once in awhile.

Are you using a processor? if so ,what kind?

I ordered a set of PRV midbasses this am, going to try those out. They use Neo magnets so fit should be relatively easy.


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## preston

I am using a Pioneer 99prs deck as my control. I originally was going to go double din so I could have a backup camera. I hadn't researched equipment in years and I was anticipating a wonderful world of media and ipod/iphone apps and SQ features. I was totally disappointed to find no decks that had advanced DSP features. I was doubly amazed to find none that had digital out for proper feeding to an outboard DSP. I actually bought an Alpine H800 and Rux control unit but decided I preferred the clean signal path of the Pioneer. I was also attracted to its simple elegance sitting in the dash and the ease of tuning - sometimes I don't touch it for weeks on end but other times (especially when new) I tweak constantly. Note the Alpine is the only outboard DSP that you can tune without a laptop -it is BNIB and for sale btw  ($600 for both units)

here are some pictures of my install - as you know a 2012 will be significantly different. Note the nicely color matched 10" grille to cover up the butchery of the 8" Beymas sticking out. Love the factory matching paint, even if it was $16 for a tiny 5 oz can. The brake pedal clearance looks horrendous but its really a non-issue, and the wiring on the under dash shot is much more tucked up and out of the way than it might look. On the 2003 you have to shave down one of the heater box mounting brackets, not sure what you will face in 2012. I have plans to mount grilles over the horns and cover them with beige speaker cloth but they are so low key now I haven't been in a rush to do it.


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## scoott

I've got the USD roto-mounts, so I think they will fit fairly easy. ( I hope!)

I was thinking of lowering the park brake so I could move the horn over close to the kickpanel. I picked up a ms-8 that I was going to use with a full hat Clarus/unity/legatia system. I'll try it with the horns, if I don't like it ' I'll move it over to my 2004 Ram with the hat stuff.


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## preston

I originally tried to fit 8" in the kick panels - cut the holes, made double 3/4" baffles, opened up ventilation, sounded like ass. The point being I spaced the e-brake out 1.25" to do that. After that failed experiment I didn't want to deal with the e-brake anymore. In my truck its a huge f'in assembly I think it would be very difficult to lower it and get any more clearance (and I am a pretty good fabricator). I don't have any urge to either as my image is perfectly focused for me although not so much for the passenger. Its definitely not a 2 seat vehicle. Anyway just my thought on it.


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## rockin

Looks nice. I think it will look sweet with a grille over the guides. So your 8 plays up to what freq? 700 -1000 somewhere? Your 8s look pretty high up in the door. How is your soundstage? Is it high, low, middle? Are you happy with it? Just curious how other HLCD setups sound. Wish I could hear a lot more of them.
Just read your other post describing your front stage and I guess the horns are better than your other direct radiating setup. Meaning higher too? That is pretty impressive, I've always had a low soundstage using a 2 way horn / MB front stage.


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## roduk

rockin said:


> Looks nice. I think it will look sweet with a grille over the guides. So your 8 plays up to what freq? 700 -1000 somewhere? Your 8s look pretty high up in the door. How is your soundstage? Is it high, low, middle? Are you happy with it? Just curious how other HLCD setups sound. Wish I could hear a lot more of them.
> Just read your other post describing your front stage and I guess the horns are better than your other direct radiating setup. Meaning higher too? That is pretty impressive, I've always had a low soundstage using a 2 way horn / MB front stage.


If your getting a low stage with horns and those mb in the kicks, just turn the MB gains/levels down a touch - that should lift it a bit. I had a horn stage up middle of the screen and a foot out down the bonnet in a dead straight line left to right, it was bloody wonderful - trying to get the same from a set of Uni-q KEF in the kicks atm and nearly there. Lacks a little impact, but tonality is better as it's point source with no high/mid TA. Love your install, especially those kick builds.

Your still using the MB in the doors too though aren't you?? Your stage will move further out if you disconnect them and just use the ones in the firewall.. Give it a shot..


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## rockin

roduk said:


> If your getting a low stage with horns and those mb in the kicks, just turn the MB gains/levels down a touch - that should lift it a bit. I had a horn stage up middle of the screen and a foot out down the bonnet in a dead straight line left to right, it was bloody wonderful - trying to get the same from a set of Uni-q KEF in the kicks atm and nearly there. Lacks a little impact, but tonality is better as it's point source with no high/mid TA. Love your install, especially those kick builds.
> 
> Your still using the MB in the doors too though aren't you?? Your stage will move further out if you disconnect them and just use the ones in the firewall.. Give it a shot..


I gave up trying to do it with a 2 way setup and installed 3.5" in my oem dash locations. Now my horn / dash setup plays down to 250hz so I'm really happy with the height. The Diamond HEX I'm using play low, but their sensitivity isn't great. In order to keep up with the horns I am using 4 of them. For competition I could probably disconnect the door MB, but for the other 99% of the time (real world) I need the door pair to overcome the V8, road noise, plus the car has T Tops which I love to remove and it makes such a difference having the additional MB. Thanks for the compliments on the kicks guys.


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## preston

> So your 8 plays up to what freq? 700 -1000 somewhere? Your 8s look pretty high up in the door. How is your soundstage? Is it high, low, middle? Are you happy with it? Just curious how other HLCD setups sound. Wish I could hear a lot more of them.
> Just read your other post describing your front stage and I guess the horns are better than your other direct radiating setup. Meaning higher too? That is pretty impressive, I've always had a low soundstage using a 2 way horn / MB front stage.


Yeah 8's go to 800Hz, I seem to prefer them rolling off at 12db, although the horns roll off at 24db. Occasionally certain instruments will "rainbow" a bit down into the doors but its pretty subtle and not at all a problem. The stage is plenty high , no problem with it being low and very focused, but note that running rear fill really works for me and adds a bit of presence to my stage as well. Also, flipping polarity on one or both horns can move it around quite a bit. In the end I always prefer the tonality of everything being in phase, but I assume that phase flips help your stage you can EQ the correct tonality back in. The 8's may seem high but I think it works well perhaps because they are so close to the horns and nowhere near beaming frequency. I'd like to hear them in the kicks or floor just to compare but it didn't work out (not enough airspace, muffled bass, massive resonance in the upper a-pillar where I couldn't effectively deaden). 

I wouldn't want to go to far in comparing the staging of my Cad vs Truck as a test bed of conventional drivers vs horns, as the cabs are so totally different. The Truck is very high of course, and wide, with many hard surfaces, the Cad has off axis mounted kicks with a lot of deadening and sound absorption under the dash and many soft surfaces. I have a lot of problem balancing left/right in the Cad - the sound always seems to pull to the right even with a 1-3dB gain on the left side mid. One thing I'd like to do in my Cad is move the kick speakers (Hybrid L4) more on axis as I think that would make a big difference. Would probably focus the stage a bit more as well. I will say that I think the Cad still has the edge in warmth and maybe tonality, while at the same time saying I now prefer the truck because it has more clarity, dynamics, and realism. Strange combination huh ? I enjoy both systems and yet they sound quite a bit different, but like I said I am definitely more psyched about the truck these days. My Cad could also use rear fill, I never put rear speakers in and have always missed them, and they add a lot (3%) of ambience in the truck. 

As many of you may know, very few normal people have any interest in mobile audio whatsoever or even appreciate good fidelity - I so appreciate being able to hang out on this forum and actually converse with somebody who gives a crap !


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## scoott

preston said:


> Yeah 8's go to 800Hz, I seem to prefer them rolling off at 12db, although the horns roll off at 24db. Occasionally certain instruments will "rainbow" a bit down into the doors but its pretty subtle and not at all a problem. The stage is plenty high , no problem with it being low and very focused, but note that running rear fill really works for me and adds a bit of presence to my stage as well. Also, flipping polarity on one or both horns can move it around quite a bit. In the end I always prefer the tonality of everything being in phase, but I assume that phase flips help your stage you can EQ the correct tonality back in. The 8's may seem high but I think it works well perhaps because they are so close to the horns and nowhere near beaming frequency. I'd like to hear them in the kicks or floor just to compare but it didn't work out (not enough airspace, muffled bass, massive resonance in the upper a-pillar where I couldn't effectively deaden).
> 
> I wouldn't want to go to far in comparing the staging of my Cad vs Truck as a test bed of conventional drivers vs horns, as the cabs are so totally different. The Truck is very high of course, and wide, with many hard surfaces, the Cad has off axis mounted kicks with a lot of deadening and sound absorption under the dash and many soft surfaces. I have a lot of problem balancing left/right in the Cad - the sound always seems to pull to the right even with a 1-3dB gain on the left side mid. One thing I'd like to do in my Cad is move the kick speakers (Hybrid L4) more on axis as I think that would make a big difference. Would probably focus the stage a bit more as well. I will say that I think the Cad still has the edge in warmth and maybe tonality, while at the same time saying I now prefer the truck because it has more clarity, dynamics, and realism. Strange combination huh ? I enjoy both systems and yet they sound quite a bit different, but like I said I am definitely more psyched about the truck these days. My Cad could also use rear fill, I never put rear speakers in and have always missed them, and they add a lot (3%) of ambience in the truck.
> 
> As many of you may know, very few normal people have any interest in mobile audio whatsoever or even appreciate good fidelity - I so appreciate being able to hang out on this forum and actually converse with somebody who gives a crap !


 I second that!

20 years ago, I stopped by a car toys store in Portland,Or. to get me 93 Chev extended cab work truck RTA'd. They were having a free competition so I entered the truck to get the RTA for free ( as well as the evaluation).

Install was rated down because the truck was dirty. ( just came out of the woods to get parts for logging equipment).

But the sound judges ( one in each seat) LOVED the truck. When they got out, one of them asked me why I put a system like that in a work truck?

I told them, " I spend 3 to 8 hours a day in that truck....why not?)

Truck had 51/4 MB quart & 1 inch tweet (Reference series) in modified Q form kickpanels, 2 6 1/2' MB quart midbasses in each door, 2 JL audio 10w6's in a custom console between the front buckets. CD changer under back seat, Pioneer 7-way electronic crossover after early pioneer DSP, Phoenix Gold (ms-75 & ms 2125) and ads pq-20 amps. everything fully active.

So this truck I am not afraid of putting the best I kind hear and afford. I'll probably listen to it for 10 or 20 years. ( Just traded the 93 in this year on the new Dodge.)

I just got a set of PRV 8" neo midbasses in, have high hopes from specs and recomendations. I am dithering about whether to run the ms-8 or the old pioneer premier 7-way elctronic crossover ( cd-1000), with an Audio Control 6 channel DQS. Any thoughts, advice, opinions.

I like the option of running 3" speakers in the dash to raise the stage if needed, but that would use up all the channels of the MS-8 unless I dropped a center and sub.

With the pioneer crossover, I could go sub, 3 way front, 3 way rear. So lots of possibilities'

I can see a year of testing just to go through the options.

Hope to get started with the install Memorial weekend, pulling everything out of the cab. Putting in wiring and enough cables to cover any possibilities, and getting started. soundeadening the doors, floor, walls


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## rockin

you won't need a center channel with the waveguides, you will need as many EQ bands as possible. Not familiar with the MS-8 config, other than power for rear speakers. You already have it? I would use Audison Bit 1 or ARC ps-8 if I had my choice of processors.


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## scoott

rockin said:


> I'm running USDs with the piezo driver. Was using four 6.5 " Diamond HEX MB (2 in each door) The soundstage was very low with lower freqs being particularly low (per IASCA and I agree)
> So I removed the rearmost 6.5 from each door and mounted it in on axis in the kickpanel keeping the forward most 6.5 in each door. 70HZ HP 225HZ LP @ 24db/oct. L-R
> Used 3.5" in my dash in the OEM locations 250HZ HP 750LP @24db/oct. L-R
> Guides @800+ same X over
> What a huge difference in stage height, and it makes all imaging better. Center seems better, too. More focused. I don't know if this is any help to you at all but just thought I'd share my experience (This is my 3rd vehicle with USD guides, second W/ piezos.)
> 
> BEFORE
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AFTER


 What 3"s are you using? How much power to them vs. the horns? What happens at higher volume levels? 

I would think the 3"s would run out way before the horns , doing nasty things to the balance/stage?


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## preston

I don't have any personal experience with the MS-8, but everything I've read on this forum seems to indicate that it doesn't handle horns well. Of course you can work with it to do what you want, but its really designed to do an auto-tune and then be mildly tweaked. Andy of JBL has said they never considered a horn installation in its software. Just what I've read, so my recommendation FWIW would be to go a different route if you are using horns. 

I have the equipment and everything I need to go 3 way up front but haven't felt a need for it. If anything, a super-tweeter might be more useful than mid-range. I can't hear above 10k so no need. I do see the RTA rolling off pretty good after 10k with my full size horns, but obviously I don't care. 

as far as you other decisions, may as well just start with 8's and the horns, and see what you think from there. I can tell you in my rig there is absolutely no need to "raise" the stage, the magic of horns. As mentioned above it might be tough to find a sensitive 3" that can keep up with the horns anwya. I'm a believer int eh simple audio path, less speakers is better to a certain extent.


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## rockin

scoott said:


> What 3"s are you using? How much power to them vs. the horns? What happens at higher volume levels?
> 
> I would think the 3"s would run out way before the horns , doing nasty things to the balance/stage?[/QU
> 
> In this setup I went from a PG 232 EQ to an Audison Bit 1, so levels are not an issue as you have total control of each channel's level. However, if I were still analog, I'd just increase the amp gain on the 3" to match the horn. The 3" would be dictating how loud the system got. I have a D7054 on the horns and 3" so horns see 25 watts ea. 3" see 50.
> 
> When I first decided to try this I was using some 2 way Pioneers that were in the car when I bought it! LOL. After I decided to go this way I bought some CDT ES03s from a nice guy on here. Can't tell you the results yet because I'm leaving them at the same X over point as the old 3s to break in for about 50 hours. Then I will see if I can lower the HP to 225 or 200.
> 
> The system is plenty loud for me. IASCA SQ testing is at 90 db...the setup probably does 130 db easily.


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## scoott

Raining over the weekend so I'm working in my shop on dirt bikes and stereo.

I play the USD horns on my stereo in the shop. Horns sitting on a 42" high counter. They sound okay like that untill you start to turn them up over conversation level.

I wrap one of the horns with two layers of GT matt. I'm going to use the mat on the trucks interior. Then I raise the volume on the deadened horn untill it just starts to get nasty. At that point I unplug the deadened horn running solo and plug it into the unwrapped horn next to it, leaving the volume setting alone.........

WOW!!!!! What a difference! The untreated horn is soo harsh, my 3 friends cover their ears and refexively turn away! I try it the other way, turning up the untreated horn and then switchhing back to the treated horn. After switching back to the treated horn it is noticeably smoother . 
Then I wrap the other USD horn and try the test again. I can't tell a difference between them at that point, with them both equally smooth.

I'm going to try the same thing with the PVC matched to the bottom edge and see how that sounds.


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## boardthis74

Hey Scoott, I have a similar truck and have always wanted to do waveguides ever since I was a teen. So I'm anxiously awaiting your install and opinions. Probably no chance you'll have it done by the first week of July huh. I'm driving back home (olympia area) and would love to give it a listen.

Jared


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## scoott

boardthis74 said:


> Hey Scoott, I have a similar truck and have always wanted to do waveguides ever since I was a teen. So I'm anxiously awaiting your install and opinions. Probably no chance you'll have it done by the first week of July huh. I'm driving back home (olympia area) and would love to give it a listen.
> 
> Jared


 I will be lucky to get everything done by july. I just bought a set of horns from patrick bateman....so I will buy some drivers and evaluate which pair I like better for sound/fit/ etc.

I am also gearing up to build a box under the back seat out of mdf/fiberglass for two boston 12.5 subs. Got a foxbox for 10,s that I'm putting in my older 2004 Dodge ram.Didn't think the foxbox would do well SQ or reliability under big power. Doing a conventional install on the 2004 ....maybe.

You might try contacting Preston in this thread about listening to his Ram. I would love to do that if I was closer/ less busy. He's just north of you in Kirkland.


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