# Is Loud and Accurate even possible



## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

Ok first off this is my first post and I wanted to thank everyone for an extremely informative site. From the general discussion to the reviews to the tutorials and the installs, everything is very well done and very clear and easy to understand and although im not a rookie at this im not an expert by any means at all so reading through pages and pages of the information provided on this site was a nice couple days of gaining knowledge. 

Now for my dilema... i'm a bass head, yes i like my bass loud enough to set off car alarms and to agrivate those driving close by. Not because i truly enjoy it all the time(although sometimes its not bad) but because i live in south florida and everyone down here is rockin L7's and W7's so they are loud and think they have the greatest systems. 

If i JUST wanted to be loud i could do it, i have a standard cab ram with about 7cubes behind the seats, a couple RE SX's 15's and a couple thousand watts and i could out pound most anything around here

The problem is i want accurate TIGHT bass, something along the lines of IDmax's or in the same ballpark.

*so here is the question at hand is it possible to have ear bleeding loud(when i want to turn it up to drown out the CRAP) AND to also have extremely tight, like double pedal system of the down tight bass?*

and my original idea for subwoofers btw was either 6-RE10's 2 oz ME-12's 2-SE12's or my most recent idea since i read the review on the phoenix gold RSD's vs the idmax and how identical they were, 4 RSD12's

ok guys... let a rip


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Yes it is... the key being that the rest of your system keeps up. The trick to tight bass is spectral balance. Excessive distortion, or large peaks in amplitude are going to make your bass heavy, thick, and slow sounding.


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## DonovanM (Nov 1, 2006)

So you're just talking about bass then?

DID YOU LEARN NOTHING AT ALL?!

Just kidding 

I would say go with something like two 18's sealed. There's a guy on ICIX who fit 2 eD 19Ov.2's behind the seats of a single cab Ram, but I wouldn't recommend those drivers, they're kind of cheap.

I don't remember if he said how much airspace was available but do you think you could fit 8 cubes back there? Maybe build the boxes a bit higher. If you could I would say go with 2 Fi Q 18's sealed, then get 2000W worth of amplification.

Loud and reasonably accurate is possible... with lots of cone area, power, and a sealed box.


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

Loud *and* accurate ??? 



*POWER is the key ....*


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2007)

AVI said:


> Loud *and* accurate ???
> 
> 
> 
> *POWER is the key ....*


nah ... accurate power is easy to come by, even at "large" levels.

Accurate drivers, at "large" levels .... that's another story.


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## zukiaudio (Jan 31, 2007)

you won't accomplish what you want 

with a standard cab truck

without a cut through of some kind 

into the bed 

and some kind of box/enclosure in the bed

if you have a standard cab ram pick up


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## tRidiot (Jun 29, 2006)

In my experience, yes this is attainable, but you have to drastically *overbuild* your system.

I'm running 2800 watts, and barely use 1/4 of that most of the time, probably even less. But when I want to crank it, I need that power.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

high efficiency pro audio drivers for the front stage so it can keep up with your low end. 
+
Multiple layers of dampening mat + ensolite (absorber) + other barrier products like Vertax barrier pad.
+
properly designed sub box.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Can it be done?

Yes

It just takes a lot of work dampening the vehicle and a well designed enclosure for a very linear low-distortion subwoofer. Matched with strong midbass woofers, you should be able to have it loud and clear at the same time.

Out of curiosity though: What is your idea of 'loud'?

I think anything over 130 is pretty crazy, but I have heard systems which approach 140 that are still fairly clear even at full tilt.
If you want to drive around with the ability to surpass 140 at your fingertips and still have great SQ, I can appreciate that, but it is going to be a challenge to pull off.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

my idea of loud is 140-145 territory. I'm not saying this would be easy, and lord knows it wont be cheap, but i want to know if its possible. tRdoc had the basic idea I was asking about, overbuild a system with say 1000watts for daily listening purposes with another 1000watts+ on tapp for those need be loud moments. and maybe i should also clear this up.... I'm not expecting to hit 140-145 territory and still have it perfect, but i want the ability to rank it up that loud when i need to, but still have excellent quality around 130-135 territory. 

Any comments on my variety of drivers i had rolling around in my head. You all are saying lots of cone area and lots of power, 2-SE12's(1200watts) 6-RE10's(1200watts) 4-RSD12's(2000watts) 2-ME12's(1400watts)

And as far as amps go, when i went to my local RE dealer, the guy was HOOKED on US amps Merlin line... any opinions?


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

OK, that makes more sense.

It sounds like you are on the right track by planning to 'overbuild' your substage for those times you really want the boom. 

I can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe what you need is to use one of those bass-control knobs that come with some of the bigger mono amps that are out there. Not the ones with an eq or frequency boost mind you - I'm talking about straight variable input voltage capability. Or maybe even a deck that has a separate subwoofer volume control function.
Either way, you could set your gains higher at the amp and dial down the output level of the subs for daily listening purposes. Then when you need to crank it up, you just need to make sure that you won't be clipping the signal at the maximum output level and you should be fine.

As for US Amps, they aren't what they used to be but I suppose you could do a lot worse. 

To accomplish what you seem to be after, I would probably use something like one of the big RF Power series sub amps and a pair of high-excursion 12" subs with a very linear motors. TC Sounds products & JL W7 come to mind.


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## 02bluesuperroo (Oct 31, 2006)

Bobditts? Is that you?


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the frontstage? You need the power and drivers up front to *keep up* with the low end. Namely larger mids in the 6.5" to 7" range. They have the volume needed to keep up. I know Winslow over on ECA believes in using large mids. 

He busts on anyone using PUNY 4" or 5" driver. And I share his reasoning.

Have you considered horns? You won't need as much power since they're UBER effiecient.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

^that's what I was refering to about the midbass drivers before.

An old favorite at comps used to be running 8" midbass with horns up front, and then some large high-powered subs in the back. Systems like that could really tear your head off while still playing cleanly at lower volumes. 
With the way most vehicles are built these days, it's just so hard to fit horns under the dash or find enough room in the footwells for larger midbass enclosures.

Cars today simply do not accommodate stereo systems like they used to...

(Buick Regal FTW)


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Chaos said:


> ^that's what I was refering to about the midbass drivers before.
> 
> An old favorite at comps used to be running 8" midbass with horns up front, and then some large high-powered subs in the back. Systems like that could really tear your head off while still playing cleanly at lower volumes.
> With the way most vehicles are built these days, it's just so hard to fit horns under the dash or find enough room in the footwells for larger midbass enclosures.
> ...


My Dads older Buick Century would do the trick. 

Chaos...this is why I'm sticking to a few basics with my next setup. Midbass encolsures in the doors only playing up to 150ish. I'll have enough airspace for my IDQ8's....and a 7" mid with a good amount of power to keep up with those midbasses.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

for front stage, i was thinking about either some 8" 3ways per recomendation of this forum... or the only ones i had in mind at the moment were ID CXS6 the 7" componants. I want loud, all around loud not just bass loud, i want to be able to feel like im sitting front stage at a concert with deafening volume and clarity (from time to time... obviously not on a regular basis or i wont be able to hear the music after a few weeks)


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

zukiaudio said:


> you won't accomplish what you want
> 
> with a standard cab truck
> 
> ...



yes you can....it's being done currently in matt roberts truck


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

GlasSman said:


> Why hasn't anyone mentioned the frontstage? You need the power and drivers up front to *keep up* with the low end. Namely larger mids in the 6.5" to 7" range. They have the volume needed to keep up. I know Winslow over on ECA believes in using large mids.
> 
> He busts on anyone using PUNY 4" or 5" driver. And I share his reasoning.
> 
> Have you considered horns? You won't need as much power since they're UBER effiecient.


you would be surprised what a puny 4 can do....guys it comes down to tuning and installation...tuning for identical freq response from both L and R and it comes down to getting the phasing and time alignment down...and installation for proper placement...and over built enclosures etc...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah, but a 4 isn't the same as a 6 or a 7.

Can't make a 4 pull off recreating a piano in it's size and space at real unamplified levels.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

He believes the same thing over here too  



GlasSman said:


> Why hasn't anyone mentioned the frontstage? You need the power and drivers up front to *keep up* with the low end. Namely larger mids in the 6.5" to 7" range. They have the volume needed to keep up. I know Winslow over on ECA believes in using large mids.
> 
> He busts on anyone using PUNY 4" or 5" driver. And I share his reasoning.
> 
> Have you considered horns? You won't need as much power since they're UBER effiecient.


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah, but a 4 isn't the same as a 6 or a 7.
> 
> Can't make a 4 pull off recreating a piano in it's size and space at real unamplified levels.


dude...your idea of loud and mine,hell the rest of the world for that matter is totally different  ...well maybe eldridge, clark, holdaway and stevens to


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Nah, that last group of people have it right.

Mark's old 4 Runner would get dumb loud.

Eric's car would do 132s on L'daddy using the front stage only.

Come on man, get with the old school...lol.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

i don't mean to be rude, but instead of fighting with eachother about small drivers vs large, how about everyone give me their personal opinion with a reasoning behind it and i'll choose what seems to be the best option for me. I'm not trying to be rude just don't want everyone fighting over this. any opinion on the ID 7" comp set?


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2007)

_loudness_ is one of the easiest things to QUANTIFY in audio ... no need to argue


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

No one is fighting...

I say the pros for large midranges are:
More output, less distortion, able to recreate instruments in a realistic size/space/volume level.

Cons- harder to position correctly.

Smaller midranges are the opposite of that IMO.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

alright anyone done an 8" driver in a dodge ram door? its a factory 6x9 and i understand theres 3.75" depth with a .75" baffel and from lookin at it with my own eyes with some trimming of the factory metal it SHOULD work, but im curious if anyones done it. And if so what a good 8" 3 way comp set under say 500$


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah, no problems with that truck.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah, but a 4 isn't the same as a 6 or a 7.
> 
> Can't make a 4 pull off recreating a piano in it's size and space at real unamplified levels.



Remind me to never let you judge my car. Too much bias and I'd automatically loose 

I'd agree a smaller mid would probably never get down in it's lower range and play at high levels, but I think it could easily do it if the crossover were high enough. Example, a 3" would probably never be able to play 250Hz at high levels without a bit of distortion, but as you go up in crossover frequency it should able to handle more power.

At the risk of creating an arguement, and oversimplifiying this scenario: 
If a person was listening to a 6" and a 3" in a bandpass situation and the 3 is played within it's limits and tuned to sound the same as a 6" played at the same level, would anyone be able to pick out which is which if it were a blind ABX test?


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Spencer321 said:


> my idea of loud is 140-145 territory.


Is that strictly for your lowend or are you talking everything needs to play that loud?


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

everything, i don't plan on metering it unless someone wants to do it for free, but everything playing not just subs. full power full blast. Like i said the best analogy i can give is sitting front stage at a rock concert. i wanna feel the bass in my chest and i want the music to sing in my ears. I wanna close my eyes and see the band playing. I've heard an RESX12 in an spl enclosure burped at 2000watts to 145, if i can get that kinda loud... tight an accurate in my truck with a frontstage to keep up, i will have accomplished my goals.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Nobody has really mentioned it yet, or at least I think but.....

I feel an accurate system has to have the ability to get loud to cover dynamics to BE accurate, But unfortunately it don't go both ways.

Chad


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah, you aren't getting 140 dB from your frontstage.

But Chad is right.

And what I said aren't in black and white terms, it is all a sliding scale of gray.

But limiting 2 speakers within a certain range of output and asking which one is the larger speaker is like driving a Cavalier at 55 mph and driving a Ford GT at 55 mph, and asking which is faster.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah, you aren't getting 140 dB from your frontstage.
> 
> But Chad is right.
> 
> ...



could you elaborate on that just a touch?

and can anyone recommend me a 8" 3 way comp front stage?


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Spencer321 said:


> everything, i don't plan on metering it unless someone wants to do it for free, but everything playing not just subs. full power full blast. Like i said the best analogy i can give is sitting front stage at a rock concert. i wanna feel the bass in my chest and i want the music to sing in my ears. I wanna close my eyes and see the band playing. I've heard an RESX12 in an spl enclosure burped at 2000watts to 145, if i can get that kinda loud... tight an accurate in my truck with a frontstage to keep up, i will have accomplished my goals.


I had a single 12" JL12W6V2 ina sealed box playing music in my hatch of my civic. It was fully capable of hitting 145db with about 400Wrms. My front stage hitting 145db... no way in hell.



thehatedguy said:


> But limiting 2 speakers within a certain range of output and asking which one is the larger speaker is like driving a Cavalier at 55 mph and driving a Ford GT at 55 mph, and asking which is faster.


Thank you.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

One thing to remember is that the human ear is much less sensitive to low frequencies than it is to high frequencies. 

145 db at 50 Hz will elicit a response of "Damn, that's loud!"

145 db at 1000 Hz will elicit a response of "Get me to the hospital, someone has stabbed me in the ears."


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

145 dB at 1000k hertz will make you deaf, really really really fast.


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

You definitely do not want to listen to your whole frontstage at 130dB continously for any more than a few seconds at a time. Your ears will thank you when you get older.

However, you can probably tolerate a bit of high spl bass moreso than the midrange/highs. Like werewolf already mentioned, loud is quantifiable, accurate can be done too. 

Here's what I'd generally do when I design a system. 
-start out with realistic goals (which is what you're doing)
-know your system's limits (extreme high spl and low distortion generally do not go together)
-choosing speakers that fit into your goals (no 3" midrange will get you into 135dB catetory, no single conventional dome tweeter will get you max 135dB either)
-amplification, processing, etc all are important.


BTW, Jason, I don't think you can compare an unamplified concert at 120dB with a car's system at 120dB full tilt. Both can have the same freq. response, same level of spl (let's even forget room acoustics for now) They still won't sound the same. One without distortion will always sound different from one with some distortions/color added.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

durwood said:


> I had a single 12" JL12W6V2 ina sealed box playing music in my hatch of my civic. It was fully capable of hitting 145db with about 400Wrms. My front stage hitting 145db... no way in hell.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.


what do you mean no way in hell?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Who said anything about that?



sqkev said:


> BTW, Jason, I don't think you can compare an unamplified concert at 120dB with a car's system at 120dB full tilt. Both can have the same freq. response, same level of spl (let's even forget room acoustics for now) They still won't sound the same. One without distortion will always sound different from one with some distortions/color added.


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah, you aren't getting 140 dB from your frontstage.
> 
> .


I have peaks with the subs turned off near 130.  

I can prove it to.   

I can't even FATHOM 140 db's full range. ****, with mine cranked, I had to wear ear protection. But it sounds damn good outside the car about 400' away!  Sounds like an AC/DC concert on wheels!


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## chadillac3 (Feb 3, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> 145 dB at *1000k* hertz will make you deaf, really really really fast.


Hmm, 1 MHz?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That might levitate you...lol.

Yeah, one too many zeros.


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

chadillac3 said:


> Hmm, 1 MHz?


 
I can hear my phone and it says 2.4ghz


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Spencer321 said:


> what do you mean no way in hell?





dawgdan said:


> One thing to remember is that the human ear is much less sensitive to low frequencies than it is to high frequencies.
> 
> 145 db at 50 Hz will elicit a response of "Damn, that's loud!"
> 
> 145 db at 1000 Hz from 2 feet awaywill elicit a response of "Get me to the hospital, someone has stabbed me in the ears."


That's what I mean


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> That might levitate you...lol.
> 
> Yeah, one too many zeros.


No, one too many K's


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Who said anything about that?


had about 3-4 hours of sleep and I guess I read into things? :blush:


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

ahh i understand im not expecting my front stage to play at 145dbs no way, but if my subs play in the 145db range when i want them too... and my front stage will keep up clear and accurate when my subs are turned down a bit, thats what im going for, its still deafening loud but i dont expect my front stage to keep up with 145db. 

CAN ANYONE RECOMMEND A 8" 3 WAY COMP SET???


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

can you fit a pair of 10" drivers up front in the kickpanels? 

If you can, I got what you need..


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

i don't think 10's in the kickpanels is going to work... if i would i wouldnt bother with 4-12's lol


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

these are midrange drivers...not as deep as a sub.


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## 02bluesuperroo (Oct 31, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Yeah, one too many zeros.


Try 3 too many....


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

10's still aren't going to fit regardless, but i would really like suggestion on a 8" 3 way comp set if anyone wants to shoot me some ideas. I was originally lookin at the matrix elite 3 way, the 380, but its only a 6.5" and i can fit an 8" so i would like a suggestion. Unless everyone thinks the ME 3 ways are good


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## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

Your hearing is far more important that bassing out someone else's vehicle. 130db over a span of time can cause permenant damage . . . I wouldn't risk my hearing unless you plan on dying young.

Trucks, bah. If you can fit go with Digital Design subs, "loud and accurate" subs. We have a Tacoma back at home that wins sq comps with a DD sub, which also gets tons of points for spl as well. Good luck.

-Fixtion


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

You won't find too many 8" 3-way sets out there. I think Dynaudio makes one, but they aren't known for massive SPL, more smoothness than anything else.

You'll probably need to select individual drivers to achieve your goals. I'd say you may be a good candidate for Hybrid Audio.. get an L8 in each door, an L4 in the kicks, and the L1 in your a-pillars. Of course, you'd need active processing and individual channels available for each driver - passive crossover networks likely won't handle the amount of power you'll need to get really loud.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-8NDL51-1.htm


http://www.woodhorn.com/BMS/bms_4552nd.htm


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

L841... where can i get a set of those... and how much. Looks good, if anyone else has an opinion on the matter. I've only ever dealt with the passive crossovers that come with the component sets, what else would i need, a dedicated channel on an amp per speaker im assuming... and then?


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Oh yea definently possible, and even wanted in some cases......Headroom pretty much. Used to run a single Tempest and it could dip low and very cleanly, didn't have as beefy of midbasses then as i do now, but my setup now blows it out of the water with ease. Its all based around to midbass/sub integration and moving air, lots of air, both subs and midbasses..


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> L841... where can i get a set of those... and how much. Looks good, if anyone else has an opinion on the matter. I've only ever dealt with the passive crossovers that come with the component sets, what else would i need, a dedicated channel on an amp per speaker im assuming... and then?


You'd need to contact Scott directly at [email protected]. Scott is a great guy and very willing to help anyone.

As far as power, you can probably discuss a lot of that with Scott. I'm not sure if he sells amps anymore, but he can definitely make some recommendations. You'll need processing, and a W205/H701 combo would really be ideal for your setup.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

ok were getting into a little more money than i was lookin at, lets try to stay inside of 1200$ for frontstage (not including HU). how about DLS Reference 6.3 3 ways... or the Ultimate series UP6 2 ways? i know im going to catch hell for this but im going to stay passive at the moment, i know i wont be able to go as loud and as clear and i originally wanted to but ive had what i would call good luck with passive componant crossovers.


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## tRidiot (Jun 29, 2006)

I think you'd be better off going for a DIY front stage made for maximum output than for an all-in-one 3-way setup... as mentioned above Dynaudio makes a 3-way System 360 and DLS has an Iridium 8.3 set. I think there are also a few more out there... CDT comes to mind.

Personally, I went with a 4" mid (gasp!) that blows my damn socks off... CDT ES-04. These babies get frigging LOUD playing down to 250Hz, and my 8" Oz 200Hs take over from there.

I can turn off my sub and probably break mid 120s, I'd guess. I'd dunno, though never had it metered. I cross my sub low-low (like 40Hz) most of the time and all it does is add a little punch to the midbasses and totally makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. 

Of course, that pair of 12s really fills things up when I crank up 1800 RMS on them when I'm running full-tilt on the highway. 

I'll be replacing the 2 Directed Studio 12s and American Bass xd1800 with a pair of Ampman Revolution amps (1500RMS each) and a trio of TC Sounds TC-9 12s... whenever I get off my lazy ass and build the new enclosure and amprack.  I think my final setup will net me exactly what it is you've been looking for, as well. Even right now, I'm EXTREMELY happy with the output, and I've been through many systems looking for pounding heavy midbass and a smallish midrange (in kickpanels) that can keep up.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

what would i need if i pieced it together myself, 3 way active crossover? or a seperate amp channel for each componant? a 4way for the tweets and 4" and a seperate 2way for the 8"


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## Whiterabbit (May 26, 2006)

yep, an active crossover will require one amplifier channel per driver.

if you are really referring to passive crossovers (with unpowered components), then you can choose to wire them all up in parallel to run on one pair of amplifier channels or again use sepearate channels per driver. Your choice.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

I think one of the positives of going active in your case is that you'll be limited by the drivers themselves rather than their passive crossover components. For instance, the DLS Iridium 8.3 set is rated at 100 watts RMS per side - there are people on here that power their tweeters with 100 watts RMS alone. 

Active processing and using a single channel for each speaker will let you run much more power than that. With careful tuning, 800-1000 watts just for your front speakers probably isn't far out of reach.

With a 3-way front stage plus subs, you'll need a 4-way crossover. The H701, PPI DCX-730, and the Clarion DRZ9255 will allow you to do all this and more. Zapco DC Reference amps are also fully programmable - cost no object, this would be the route I'd choose.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

im assuming a seperate channel per driver is the best for SQ? so for a 3 way i would need 6channels of amplified power. I like the simplicity of running a single channel to a crossover and 3 channels out... but i guess simplicity and mobile audio SQ don't really go hand in hand. well if im going that route COULD i do a 2 way 4" componant set passive in the kicks and then run the 8" in the doors active off a seperate amp... Clarion 7band eq to control everything?


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> No one is fighting...
> 
> I say the pros for large midranges are:
> More output, less distortion, able to recreate instruments in a realistic size/space/volume level.
> ...


EXACTLY.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> im assuming a seperate channel per driver is the best for SQ? so for a 3 way i would need 6channels of amplified power. I like the simplicity of running a single channel to a crossover and 3 channels out... but i guess simplicity and mobile audio SQ don't really go hand in hand. well if im going that route COULD i do a 2 way 4" componant set passive in the kicks and then run the 8" in the doors active off a seperate amp... Clarion 7band eq to control everything?


You could do that but passives rob power. 

And could you at least fit a 5.25" mid?

A truck like yours can fit a 6.5" without too much protrusion into the kick area. Theres a truck similar to yours in the Install section.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

you mean like 5.25" midranges in the kicks and 8" in the doors? yeah that should fit without a whole lot of effort. Question, tweets better in the floor, the sail or the a-pillar?


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

why not look into pro audio drivers?


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

i'm not super familiar with all the exclusive SQ companys like seas and brax and dls, im decent with subs... but as far as SQ companys go consider me an infant and educate me a little bit. I'm beggining to get a better idea about what im doing and i made the mistake of coming at this subs first... 

Now im thinkin how can i make my front stage perfect, crystal clear and earbleeding loud. 

Right now im thinking the ID CSX5 5.25" componants along with some 8" midbass driver (dont know what... i was reading a review on the new lotus 8" midbass that looked promising)


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> you mean like 5.25" midranges in the kicks and 8" in the doors? yeah that should fit without a whole lot of effort. Question, tweets better in the floor, the sail or the a-pillar?


Thats the thing. You have to experiment. It's *ultra important* to find out the locations that work in your vehicle.

But I've never seen a truck with A-Pillar tweets. More than likely kicks are you best option with a pair of 5" or 6" woofers along with 8" midbass drivers in the doors.

And believe me I know how it is to think you have to have drivers from the same manufacturer.

Thats the beauty of going *active*.....you can use whatever driver that works best.


----------



## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

ok... can you get me active 3 way with 8" in the doors and 5.25" w/tweets in the kicks for under 1200$ lol


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

GlasSman said:


> But I've never seen a truck with A-Pillar tweets. More than likely kicks are you best option with a pair of 5" or 6" woofers along with 8" midbass drivers in the doors.


I have.  

These are LPGs in the pillars in my Ram. I run pro-audio 8s in the doors, 5.25" in the kicks and tweets in the pillars although I currently have large format tweets in the dash instead of the pillars.











Here are pillar tweets in Mr. Seller's truck.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

what are the benefits to running them in the dash/pillar/sails/kicks? so many options WHY COULDN'T I HAVE A CUT AND DRY VEHICLE!!


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## bottom3 (Jul 30, 2007)

It's hard to beat a basic active system, you have the ability to not only choose from any drivers out there, but you can deal with phase and acoustic dips for your vehicle vs a one size fits all component set, not to mention that you can get cheaper drivers to sound excellent to your taste, along with more power to them. You can pick up new and refurbed crossfire amps on e-bay right now with 50x2 4ohm, 100x2 2ohm, 200x1 bridged 4ohm all at 12v for around $20 a pop. I run 3 Cfa 202's and a sub amp. That's 1 for the tweets, 1 for the mids, and 1 bridged for the midbass along with a sub amp. Paint the amps or tuck them away and you have a great sounding tweakable system. I agree anything over 130 and upwards of 135 and above is extremely loud, especially if your system is balanced, thosee levels are not really enjoyable personally. Headroom is good though.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

so wait if i can bridge the 8's in the doors... could i do a 5channel amp or are those not recommended?


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## bottom3 (Jul 30, 2007)

You can do a 5 channel amp, but there aren't that many out there. The memphis bell might work for you it has a large sub section in it, but they are expensive and pretty large, sometimes it's easier to tuck away several smaller amps than to manage a monster. I think DLS makes a nice one if I remember right Eclipse makes a class d 5channel, I don't remember the power rating though. I mentioned the Crossfire amps to show that a high power active system can be done reasonably.


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## Mlstrass (Apr 22, 2006)

My system goals were exactly as yours. Nice SQ front stage, but the ability to get stupid loud when I want to, but still sound good. 

Here's a few things I did that worked well in my application:

Bass remote knob for the sub amps. I run 2 15's ported with 3500watts, but when dialing down the bass knob they blend very nicely. Crank them up and the bass punches you in the chest. Box is tuned low for a flat response. You don't want a high tuned SPL box as it will sound horrible for music. So you want to over build in the sub department. 

Front stage is a pair of AA poly mids per door with a Vifa XT25 running active. Not audiophile gear, but it sounds very nice to me and will get pretty loud. 

Lastly I run rear coax's off a separate amp wired to a toggle switch, so I can add them in when I want to be very loud. Obviously ultimate SQ/soundstage concerns go out the window at this point, but it is VERY loud and sounds very good at those volumes. Think front row at an AC/DC concert and yes I've done that a few times when I was young and foolish. 

Good luck on picking out your pieces and making it all work...


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## Preacher (May 8, 2006)

These are pretty nice and could get stupid loud. I don't know how you'd implement them, but its a start. 


96db 1w1m
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=294-651

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=294-654

I'll be interested to see where this project goes.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

thank you for the suggestion but cant run 120 or 200watts rms at 8ohms, never going to be able to get that kind of power. 

And for trass, thanks that pretty much what im shootin for, 

and bottom3, i understand what your saying aobut the seperate amps, i may do 3 2 channels or 1 4 channel and a 2 channel, i was just wondering about amp quality of those crossfires. I kinda freaked when i saw 3 amps because i was lookin at high quality amps and 3 of those are out of my price range flat out


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> thank you for the suggestion but cant run 120 or 200watts rms at 8ohms, never going to be able to get that kind of power.


Sure you can. Any high-quality 75x4 amp up to 100x4 will bridge nicely into 300-400 at 4 ohms. That should net you 150-200 at 8 ohms.

Nothing at all wrong with running 8 ohm drivers.


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## B&K (Sep 20, 2005)

I still think you need to run horns, it was brought up once but it is really the only answer to keep up. A nice pro audio 8" like the B&C:
http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=2&id_descrizione=44&prodotto=53
Along with a horn under your dash is about the only way to really keep up. Get ready to implement some serious eq to tame the response of the horns though.

Oh, and a side. There is no 3 way passive set that will do what you want, not even close. Your choice is really to go active or not meet your goals. Considering you haven't done an active setup before I would recommend sticking to a 2way which of course basically means you have to use a horn of some type on the top and considering your desire for loud a pro audio mid on the bottom is the solution.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

where would i put horns?

i do have one strange oddball rookie question. With the crossover on the amp you can have a certain channel play this frequency and below (LPF) or this frequency and above (HPF) how do you create a window... for instance i want my midbass to play 60-180, my midrange to play 180-3000, and my tweets 3000+ 

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-376

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=295-370

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-070

and a general poll.... clarion amps... or US amps


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Bandpass = lpf & hpf, you set the low and high


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

what amps have a bandpass crossover style

i apologize for sounding ignorant... bare in mind im used to having people come to me for BASS... im 19, ive been building systems since i was 15, and i was always exceptional at building custom ported boxes and eventually had a reputatoin for the loudest systems in my high school and then i branched out into neighboring highschools (charged the enemy more money of course) but no one ever asked me to make their system sound blissful lol So im clueless to THIS SIDE of the car audio world.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Are you opposed to buying used or out of production amps?


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

yes and no on the used or out of production amp question. Just had bad luck in the past with used amps and put a bad taste in my mouth. Right now i have 4 old school hifonics amps(eagle, falcon, thor, samson) with 2 old school bostwik 3.5's in my truck just for a little something in the mean time untill i get my new system laid out in place. not opposed to old school or used but i would much rather go with new componants... even if that means saving for a little longer and spending a little bit more money.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

Spencer321 said:


> where would i put horns?
> 
> i do have one strange oddball rookie question. With the crossover on the amp you can have a certain channel play this frequency and below (LPF) or this frequency and above (HPF) how do you create a window... for instance i want my midbass to play 60-180, my midrange to play 180-3000, and my tweets 3000+
> 
> ...


http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_245_316&products_id=1677

ok im thinkin these instead of the daytons for midrange, daytons just dont take enough power


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> what amps have a bandpass crossover style


If you use a processor like the H701, you won't need to use any amp crossovers at all. It does everything.  Just set the amp filters to "all pass".


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## B&K (Sep 20, 2005)

Spencer321 said:


> http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_245_316&products_id=1677
> 
> ok im thinkin these instead of the daytons for midrange, daytons just dont take enough power


Those won't even come close to "keeping up"


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## Mlstrass (Apr 22, 2006)

2 amps I know that will let you bandpass mids:

Helix Dark Blue 4 channel - I use this in my current install

Sundown 100.4 - I've used that one active for a few customer installs

Personally I see no reason for horns from a volume perspective. Plenty of solid tweets that can sound good and make your ears about bleed. 

My substage probably meters mid 140's and my front stage keeps up no problem and I always have the loud rears when needed...


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

seriously, if you want big sound, stop thinking about 3 ways with tiny midrange drivers.

you are going to want horns and as big a mid as possible.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Must not have ever heard a horn system full tilt...



Mlstrass said:


> 2 amps I know that will let you bandpass mids:
> 
> Helix Dark Blue 4 channel - I use this in my current install
> 
> ...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

An interesting point was made eariler...about the distortion causing a system to sound different given everything else is equal. Question is, which has more distortion- the actual instrument or the played back recording?


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## jearhart (Jul 28, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_245_316&products_id=1677
> 
> ok im thinkin these instead of the daytons for midrange, daytons just dont take enough power


i have the dayton 8s, im running 160w to each and they take it no problem


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

i appreciate everyones efforts, but i do i really have no alternative but to spend thousands of dollars. i want loud, but im talking 800watts to the front stage and 1200 to the subs in a standard cab pickup.... its like the equivalent of JUST the front seat in your car, do i really need to spend 1000$ on 6 speakers another 600-1000$ on amps and another 1000$ between the head unit the H701 and the controller for the H701... why cant i just run a simple 3way active crossover 2 amps for the front stage 1 for the substage with a decent headunit with a built in EQ and be done with it... that wont be loud enough? 100watts to each the tweeter the 5.25" mid and 150watts to the 8" midbass ?


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## jearhart (Jul 28, 2006)

i have a friend that is doing the same thing as you. he has a single cab dodge ram. i think what you should do is get a three way active HU(he is running an eclipse 7000 i think) and run an 8 that can play high(im thinking a seas of some sort for him) and a tweeter that can play low, even a large format if you can find a spot for it. 

subs he is buying my 2 12 FI Qs. im building a ported box for him and getting a sundownz 1500d for a sub amp. probably getting a sundownz 100.4 for the front stage.


i think you should avoid a 3way active front stage because first of all the money goes through the roof, and finding places to put several amps, processors and wiring. two way you can control it with the HU and not have to worry about a processor, you can run two amps. also the tuning and fabrication is on a whole other level than 2way.


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## jearhart (Jul 28, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> i appreciate everyones efforts, but i do i really have no alternative but to spend thousands of dollars. i want loud, but im talking 800watts to the front stage and 1200 to the subs in a standard cab pickup.... its like the equivalent of JUST the front seat in your car, do i really need to spend 1000$ on 6 speakers another 600-1000$ on amps and another 1000$ between the head unit the H701 and the controller for the H701... why cant i just run a simple 3way active crossover 2 amps for the front stage 1 for the substage with a decent headunit with a built in EQ and be done with it... that wont be loud enough? 100watts to each the tweeter the 5.25" mid and 150watts to the 8" midbass ?


you need to understand that the massive power to the frontsage to get loud. the guys that do that it is for headroom. but a certain amount of power doesnt mean a certain loudness.

Andy Jones for example is running 200w to each tweet(last i knew) but i seriously doubt his system would be considered loud by you.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

ok maybe i should change my goals just a little bit... i want loud frontstage not world record breaking loud but loud enough that i dont feel the need to turn it all the way up

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=14900

how about that? 5volt pre outs, front, rear, sub, high and low pass filters, 9band eq....?


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

power does not a loud system make.. 

helps with distortion/dynamics, but speakers don't need a ton to get going. 

Plus, volume is all quantifiable, so it's not something that needs argued.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

internecine said:


> seriously, if you want big sound, stop thinking about 3 ways with tiny midrange drivers.
> 
> you are going to want horns and as big a mid as possible.


i like the simplicity... where am i going to put horns?


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

backwoods said:


> power does not a loud system make..
> 
> helps with distortion/dynamics, but speakers don't need a ton to get going.
> 
> Plus, volume is all quantifiable, so it's not something that needs argued.


what do you think about the dayton 3way i had up? or even take out the midrage and just do 8" in the door with dome tweet in the kicks or the dash, or the horn setup although im still wanting to know where to put it.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Hu
http://cgi.ebay.com/PIONEER-DEH-P880PRS-PREMIER-CD-MP3-AAC-WMA-OEL-DISPLAY_W0QQitemZ120166118561QQihZ002QQcategoryZ39752QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Midbass
http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-8NDL51-1.htm

Midbass amp
http://cgi.ebay.com/PLANET-AUDIO-4-CHANNEL-800-WATT-MOSFET-AMPLIFIER_W0QQitemZ190156928182QQihZ009QQcategoryZ39739QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Horn driver
http://www.woodhorn.com/BMS/bms_4552nd.htm

Horn amp
http://cgi.ebay.com/PLANET-AUDIO-2-CHANNEL-400-WATT-MOSFET-AMPLIFIER_W0QQitemZ190157279435QQihZ009QQcategoryZ39732QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Spencer321 said:


> i like the simplicity... where am i going to put horns?


Under the dash


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> what do you think about the dayton 3way i had up? or even take out the midrage and just do 8" in the door with dome tweet in the kicks or the dash, or the horn setup although im still wanting to know where to put it.




You're not talking LOUD with no accuracy

You want accurate dynamic sound

My beliefs are a *quality * sound system should be able to be played at elevated levels without audible distortion

It's what seperates the men from the boys

Try the new SX series midbass drivers from Image Dynamics. That might be a good place to start. Apparently they're amazing drivers.


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

GlasSman said:


> Try the new SX series midbass drivers from Image Dynamics. That might be a good place to start. Apparently they're amazing drivers.


Drivers alone never make or break midbass, it is the install part and picking the correct driver for the job...


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## photocrazy8 (Sep 27, 2007)

GlasSman said:


> You're not talking LOUD with no accuracy
> 
> You want accurate dynamic sound
> 
> ...


I agree i would also try some of the TC sounds driver. Their LMS and LMT driver have just about 0 mechanical noise, with amazing sound quality...


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=294-602

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=294-618

http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-8NDL51-1.htm


Will that get loud and clear enough 8's from 60-2000, horns from 2000+
???


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## jearhart (Jul 28, 2006)

i would stay away from horns if i were you. they are hard to use and get good results. i think for your first attempt do a simple 2 way with conventional drivers. this will get your feet wet and then if you still arent happy try horns. also i would stay away from pro audio drivers unless you have a lot of eq to use. 

im not saying you cant make horns/pro audio drivers work, but i just want you to know that it might not get you what you want.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

jearhart said:


> i would stay away from horns if i were you. they are hard to use and get good results.


Not really


jearhart said:


> i would stay away from pro audio drivers unless you have a lot of eq to use.



What makes you say that?


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## bottom3 (Jul 30, 2007)

I agree, horns are going to be really hard to get eq'ed right, also think pro drivers are going to add more probs. Your probobly going to find that getting good midbass, is the hard the part. Also there's nothing wrong with refurbished products, for instance I think the kicker zx amps are awesome, but people kill them all the time, and you can get them refurbed everywhere, the key is getting an amp that you don't have to drive to it's limits, it won't work as hard and it will last decades. Also most speakers will handle way over there rms ratings with clean power, much longer than you should expose them to your ears.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=295-376

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=275-070

yes? no?


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## CBRworm (Sep 1, 2006)

I think you may want to change your goals just a little bit.

I am running a basic DLS iridium front stage which running active through 2 amps rated as 85X4 + 320x2 will sustain a clear 129db on my (non-radio shack) meter without sounding harsh or in any way bad. My response is mid-bass heavy, but fairly well balanced. I keep the volume below audible distortion.

When you add the sub into this, the whole system becomes fairly impressive - though certainly not 145+ db territory. My single 12 with an XXK2500 is the weak link at high volumes - but is still more than sufficient.

If I drive two exits on the interstate with it at this volume without the sub, Listening to clear, undistorted music, my ears will ring for two days. That is with your average 3 way DLS system running active with a total of not a lot of watts, no rear speakers and sounding well balanced an musical. No sibilance, no shrills unless there are trumpets or some reed instruments playing.

I think your goals of having the front keep up into the 140db territory will cause you to be deaf very quickly. When I was tuning my system I wore ear plugs. What you are talking about is way way way over what I have.

As for bass, I also live in south florida. I lived through and still have many CD's from the miami bass wars. I wouldn't do it myself (anymore), but you can have a tremendous amount of bass, and the people you are trying to impress won't notice that the front can't keep up because they probably wont even be inside your truck. What is worse is that from the outside they will be able to hear your front speakers distorting easier than you can from the inside. If they are in your truck with the bass levels that high, their ears will not be able to tell if the front is distorting because you will be temporarily deaf in a matter of seconds. 

Being in south florida I assume you have done some shooting. A single gunshot is 140db, you ever notice that after a single gunshot you are deaf for a number of minutes? That is 100ms of 140db.



I say go for lots of bass, and keep the front simple and clean. You don't need the front to do anywhere near 140db around here. Make it so the front can't distort, or make your ears bleed.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

thats kind of what i was trying to say a couple pages ago. I realized my goal was a little off camber not to mention hazardous for my health. What SHOULD i be lookin for with an active 2way setup. I picked out the 225 dayton and the dome style tweets... is that a "good" setup provided that i deliver clear undistorted power to the drivers.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

if you can go large format tweets, and spend a bit more money, get something really nice. 

owII or peerless HDS tweets coupled with a nice 8" peerless mid. the dayton stuff is good, but its budget good. the peerless stuff is still not expensive but it is great.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_257&products_id=1614

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_270_324&products_id=792

better?


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> Ok first off this is my first post and I wanted to thank everyone for an extremely informative site. From the general discussion to the reviews to the tutorials and the installs, everything is very well done and very clear and easy to understand and although im not a rookie at this im not an expert by any means at all so reading through pages and pages of the information provided on this site was a nice couple days of gaining knowledge.
> 
> Now for my dilema... i'm a bass head, yes i like my bass loud enough to set off car alarms and to agrivate those driving close by. Not because i truly enjoy it all the time(although sometimes its not bad) but because i live in south florida and everyone down here is rockin L7's and W7's so they are loud and think they have the greatest systems.
> 
> ...


You may want to learn a thing or two before going on this quest... If you are really after loud sound quality, subwoofer part will be the least of your worries... And if you are really serious about sound quality, never set SPL limit to it. If you do, you are just kidding yourself and confuse others. Install skills and imagination should be your main tool to achieve this... And yes, it is possible but it takes lots of work...


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

Spencer321 said:


> i'm not super familiar with all the exclusive SQ companys like seas and brax and dls, im decent with subs... but as far as SQ companys go consider me an infant and educate me a little bit. I'm beggining to get a better idea about what im doing and i made the mistake of coming at this subs first...


i already realized i came at this from the wrong angle, im trying like hell to get a good opinion on how to set up an active 8" two way


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> i already realized i came at this from the wrong angle, im trying like hell to get a good opinion on how to set up an active 8" two way


active 8in system is a bad idea unless you like and can install horns to go with those 8s... And do not go by high end companies, plenty of very good stuff out there for little money, it is all mainly in your install. Right after you learn to match drivers to compliment each other...


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

no one on here agrees with eachother a couple people tell me horns are the only way to go and others tell me they are a nightmare to tune and get to sound right, everyone tells me as big of midbass as i can get but if im doing a 2way theres too much seperation, so we go 3 way but 3 ways too complicated so back to 2way, except were stuck on an 8" mid, and cant decide on a normal tweeter or a horn style.


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> no one on here agrees with eachother a couple people tell me horns are the only way to go and others tell me they are a nightmare to tune and get to sound right, everyone tells me as big of midbass as i can get but if im doing a 2way theres too much seperation, so we go 3 way but 3 ways too complicated so back to 2way, except were stuck on an 8" mid, and cant decide on a normal tweeter or a horn style.


I did not mean you have to go with horns, I simply pointed out that matching 8in woofer and any tweeters outside of horns would not be a good idea for variety of reasons... This can work at home but rarely in a car...


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

the dayton 8's and the peerless 8's both play well up to 2k hertz, and the tweets ive chosen both the daytons and the peerless play from 1.5k hertz to 25khertz .... can someone enlighten me to the problem because i truthfully just dont understand


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

alpine 9887 has a 3way active crossover built in? a low pass, a bandpass, and a hipass? i was reading the review... did i read that correctly?


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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)

Spencer321 said:


> alpine 9887 has a 3way active crossover built in? a low pass, a bandpass, and a hipass? i was reading the review... did i read that correctly?


You are correct.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

ok going with an alpine 9887 head unit,

Dayton RS225 8" midbass in the doors

Dayton RS125 5" midrange in the kicks

Dayton DC28F-8 1-1/8" Silk Dome Tweeters... someone either dash or kicks

Clarion APX4360 4 channel for the tweets and midranges

Clarion APX2180 2 channel for the midbass

4 phoenix gold RSD12's

Clarion DPX11500 D-class mono block 1500watts/1ohm 


What does everyone think, and yes i know its way overkill on the subs but i dont plan to have them full tilt 98% of the time


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Spencer321 said:


> What does everyone think,


Headunit choice looks good.


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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)

Spencer321 said:


> ok going with an alpine 9887 head unit,
> 
> Dayton RS225 8" midbass in the doors
> 
> ...


Installing 8s in MKIV GTi will take some modifications. It will be quite a task.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

um, i drive an 02 dodge ram


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## Preacher (May 8, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> ok going with an alpine 9887 head unit,
> 
> Dayton RS225 8" midbass in the doors
> Dayton RS125 5" midrange in the kicks
> ...


If I get a couple of projects done this is basically my next setup. I'm going to use the 225's 125's and seas textile neo's; If I were you I'd look at those or some other seas tweeter. If you want a large format tweeter there are plenty with better power handling, sensitivity, low distortion, and at not that much more. Otherwise I think you're going to be very happy after a bit of tight tuning. and a bit deaf me thinks


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

THANK YOU... thats the kind of response i was lookin for

how about these http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_270_324&products_id=1591

I know i dont like titanium or alum dome tweeters, way too harsh and too hard to calm down, i like soft domes and silk domes


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> the dayton 8's and the peerless 8's both play well up to 2k hertz, and the tweets ive chosen both the daytons and the peerless play from 1.5k hertz to 25khertz .... can someone enlighten me to the problem because i truthfully just dont understand


I guess nobody bothered to enlighten you on the subject of speaker size and dispersion patterns/beaming to be considered when setting up a stage that is well positioned and provides adeqate imaging to make music play out in more realistic way. In essence, the larger the speaker diameter, the lower the upper frequency limit at which the sound becomes directional. If you want to run your 8's up to 2k, among other issues you will face the problem with midrange frequencies playing down low, unless you are able to point them in the way they point toward some imaginary stage setting that makes you happy. Tweeters are easier to manipulate for the same reasons although there are other issues involved... So, if you are just concerned with FR, yeah, you could use these sizes (although it is very difficult to accomplish both punchy low end and upper end without any break ups with woofers of this size, not to mention a strong possibility of your midbass sounding "muddy"). If you really want a high output system, hi passing any tweeters at 2k, will severely limit their thermal power handling and cause power compression and other good stuff. Good luck with this but IMO, you are dreaming...


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## Preacher (May 8, 2006)

Spencer321 said:


> THANK YOU... thats the kind of response i was lookin for how about these http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_270_324&products_id=1591
> 
> I know i dont like titanium or alum dome tweeters, way too harsh and too hard to calm down, i like soft domes and silk domes


That's a nice looking tweeter; I wondered how the "wave guide" would benefit cars. However, this is the large format that gets me excited 
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_270_324&products_id=792

check out the fs on these two. 

Also Blowup is right ^^ Your selections are good, but playing your door speakers that high will mess up imaging use the 8's and tweets to get the best clean tones out of the rs 125's. The 125 needs to be cut off with a steep lpf to stop distortion.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

blowup said:


> I guess nobody bothered to enlighten you on the subject of speaker size and dispersion patterns/beaming to be considered when setting up a stage that is well positioned and provides adeqate imaging to make music play out in more realistic way. In essence, the larger the speaker diameter, the lower the upper frequency limit at which the sound becomes directional. If you want to run your 8's up to 2k, among other issues you will face the problem with midrange frequencies playing down low, unless you are able to point them in the way they point toward some imaginary stage setting that makes you happy. Tweeters are easier to manipulate for the same reasons although there are other issues involved... So, if you are just concerned with FR, yeah, you could use these sizes (although it is very difficult to accomplish both punchy low end and upper end without any break ups with woofers of this size, not to mention a strong possibility of your midbass sounding "muddy"). If you really want a high output system, hi passing any tweeters at 2k, will severely limit their thermal power handling and cause power compression and other good stuff. Good luck with this but IMO, you are dreaming...


i realized this... that is why im back to an active 3 way, i realized its about the only way im going to get what i want.

Now that in mind i dont know if you look a look at the speakers i had picked out, RS225 RS125 and either the seas or the dayton tweeter not sure yet.
Where should i cross over? i was going to run the 225 80-200 the RS125 200-3500 and the tweeter 3500+
and then the 4 12's 25-80

does that sound about right or am i still way off?


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

Preacher said:


> That's a nice looking tweeter; I wondered how the "wave guide" would benefit cars. However, this is the large format that gets me excited
> http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_270_324&products_id=792
> 
> check out the fs on these two.
> ...


i actually had those posted earlier, im not sure of the dynamics of a textile tweeter vs a silk/cloth tweeter... can someone describe the sound difference


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You guys are smoking REALLY good **** if you think a Peerless or Dayton 8 with any tweeter in a 2 way will come REMOTELY close to the output of a proaudio 8 and horns.

You guys are seriously seriously misinformed if you think pro drivers are bad and need more work to sound good. Same goes for horns.

What would you rather have- a speaker made to sound good, take abuse, and play loud...or the one meant to hop a long at 95 dB in someone's HT system?

There is so much misinformation on this thread by people who have no experience with any of the products that it isn't even funny.


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> There is so much misinformation on this thread by people who have no experience with any of the products that it isn't even funny.


 
amazing isn't it? I don't know where people get the idea that drivers made SPECIFICALLY for professional use, would be inferior to home consumer products.

Can't think of one market that functions that way...


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

thehatedguy you have a PM

I do have a question... would running a 3 way with horns for the highs be redundant?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Spencer321 said:


> thehatedguy you have a PM
> 
> I do have a question... would running a 3 way with horns for the highs be redundant?


Proper horns with good drivers can play MUCH lower than a conventional tweeter. Mids really aren't needed. Mated with a proper pro 8" things will be covered nicely. Keep in mind, cone pro drivers can play pretty damn high too. 2K out of a pro 12" is entirely possible


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

No, not that redundent, a 3 way gets you more cone area and more voice coils to handle power. But I wouldn't do a 3 way horn setup with anything smaller than a 6" midrange driver. A large 2 way would be nice, but getting a badassed pro 12 in the front of a car with be hard to do...so you can split the duties up with a 3 way.

My last car had horns, 8" midranges (proaudio midranges, not some midbass playing midrange), and 8" midbasses. About 1500 watts on the front stage. She got loud...WAY louder than what these guys are trying to tell you this Dayton 2 way or 3 way with a dome mid would get.

A lot of using a 2 or a 3 way would be based on what compression drivers you are using, space in the front of the car, and what horn bodies you have.

Wya back when, it wasn't uncommon for IASCA SQ cars with horns and 8" or larger midbasses to be doing 132-135 on L'daddy with just the front stage. And I don't know how many people on here have heard 130 dB of midrange, but it's LOUD. What most people on here are calling "loud" is probably in the 105-110 dB range...not bad, but really not in the realm of what another speaker system could do.


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> No, not that redundent, a 3 way gets you more cone area and more voice coils to handle power. But I wouldn't do a 3 way horn setup with anything smaller than a 6" midrange driver. A large 2 way would be nice, but getting a badassed pro 12 in the front of a car with be hard to do...so you can split the duties up with a 3 way.
> 
> My last car had horns, 8" midranges (proaudio midranges, not some midbass playing midrange), and 8" midbasses. About 1500 watts on the front stage. She got loud...WAY louder than what these guys are trying to tell you this Dayton 2 way or 3 way with a dome mid would get.
> 
> ...


Horn set up is like sour cream flavored cereal... Sure it is nutritious but it needs to be tasted first before buying a big box Just because a horn set up can get very loud and is extremely efficient (at the horn part at least), it does not mean that everyone will like it... It is a very unique staging and imaging flavor, even more so than running kickpanel speakers. He should really audition this stuff before committing to spending money and doing elaborate install (horns typically require that). If he likes it after hearing it, then let him do it by all means... He seems to be not up to speed on this stuff so I seriously doubt he knows what horns sound like...


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Wya back when, it wasn't uncommon for IASCA SQ cars with horns and 8" or larger midbasses to be doing 132-135 on L'daddy with just the front stage. And I don't know how many people on here have heard 130 dB of midrange, but it's LOUD. What most people on here are calling "loud" is probably in the 105-110 dB range...not bad, but really not in the realm of what another speaker system could do.





the other hated guy said:


> dude...your idea of loud and mine,hell the rest of the world for that matter is totally different  ...well maybe eldridge, clark, holdaway and stevens to


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Wya back when, it wasn't uncommon for IASCA SQ cars with horns and 8" or larger midbasses to be doing 132-135 on L'daddy with just the front stage. And I don't know how many people on here have heard 130 dB of midrange, but it's LOUD. What most people on here are calling "loud" is probably in the 105-110 dB range...not bad, but really not in the realm of what another speaker system could do.


I've heard loud. When standing and vocals can cause vertigo and weak knees... then it's loud IMHO.


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

blowup said:


> If you really want a high output system, hi passing any tweeters at 2k, will severely limit their *thermal* power handling and cause power compression and other good stuff. Good luck with this but IMO, you are dreaming...


i think that you meant a lower crossover frequency will severely limit the tweeter's mechanical power handling, as they will reach xmax at lwoer volume levels since they are reproducing lower frequencies. that's a mechanical issue and not a thermal, heat power issue ...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

vactor said:


> i think that you meant a lower crossover frequency will severely limit the tweeter's mechanical power handling, as they will reach xmax at lwoer volume levels since they are reproducing lower frequencies. that's a mechanical issue and not a thermal, heat power issue ...


Well, it's both, there's just more energy at lower frequencies, BUT I must say that Blowup's statement was pretty broad, there are many dome tweeters out there that can handle some serious power at lower frequencies and do just fine.

There's a certain female singer out there that WILL NOT tolerate a horn in her stage monitor, domes are used, robust ones, from a brand that some of use around here 

Will they get as LOUD as a horn, no, but they can handle some power, their sensitivity limits max output from the first watt going in.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

alright, im going to try and find somewhere where i can demo the horn idea, otherwise were just going with a 3way with the RS225 RS125 and the seas tweeters. that should be more than loud enough for me to enjoy it in the cab, and if i need to blow the people outside away... ill do a seperate bed install with 20 5.25 coax's (kidding)


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

chad said:


> Well, it's both, there's just more energy at lower frequencies, BUT I must say that Blowup's statement was pretty broad, there are many dome tweeters out there that can handle some serious power at lower frequencies and do just fine.
> 
> There's a certain female singer out there that WILL NOT tolerate a horn in her stage monitor, domes are used, robust ones, from a brand that some of use around here
> 
> Will they get as LOUD as a horn, no, but they can handle some power, their sensitivity limits max output from the first watt going in.


My statement was not really that broad, it all depends on how loud is loud to someone...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Spencer321 said:


> alright, im going to try and find somewhere where i can demo the horn idea, otherwise were just going with a 3way with the RS225 RS125 and the seas tweeters. that should be more than loud enough for me to enjoy it in the cab, and if i need to blow the people outside away... ill do a seperate bed install with 20 5.25 coax's (kidding)


What EXACTLY are you trying to accomplish volume-wise? What is loud enough for you? That begs the question.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

blowup said:


> My statement was not really that broad, it all depends on how loud is loud to someone...


Damn..... We posted at the same time where I said pretty much the same thing 

By broad I meant by throwing a blanket 2KHz figure out.


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

vactor said:


> i think that you meant a lower crossover frequency will severely limit the tweeter's mechanical power handling, as they will reach xmax at lwoer volume levels since they are reproducing lower frequencies. that's a mechanical issue and not a thermal, heat power issue ...


As already said, it would be both although mechanical one would be the one that would be way more noticable and right away, thus much easier to deal with... I would be more concerned with the thermal because it is much harder to notice but it definitively will be there and it takes a trained ear to notice power compression... There are tweeters out there with better cooling than others but they all get warm and eventually toasty depending on how loud is loud, how low they play, music material itself and duration of that loud playing...


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## Whitebread (Jul 5, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> You guys are smoking REALLY good **** if you think a Peerless or Dayton 8 with any tweeter in a 2 way will come REMOTELY close to the output of a proaudio 8 and horns.
> 
> You guys are seriously seriously misinformed if you think pro drivers are bad and need more work to sound good. Same goes for horns.
> 
> ...


Hoffmans iron law owns you if you actually want to retain a usable footwell while using proaudio 8's. I have long planned on installing horns in my car and I really wanted to install some high efficiency pro audio woofers like the ones linked to in this thread. If you do install proaudio 8's, your going to need to provided them with a large ported enclosure to get them to play down to acceptable levels. FAR larger than anything a "normal" 8 inch woofer would require.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

chad said:


> What EXACTLY are you trying to accomplish volume-wise? What is loud enough for you? That begs the question.


i dont have a decibal level to hit or anything of the sort, my idea of loud would be loud enough that i can sing along and not hear myself... which i have done with 75watts on a 2 channel to some alpine type R componants with the passive crossover. so 3 ways active should be more than loud enough for me.


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

Whitebread said:


> Hoffmans iron law owns you if you actually want to retain a usable footwell while using proaudio 8's. I have long planned on installing horns in my car and I really wanted to install some high efficiency pro audio woofers like the ones linked to in this thread. If you do install proaudio 8's, your going to need to provided them with a large ported enclosure to get them to play down to acceptable levels. FAR larger than anything a "normal" 8 inch woofer would require.


aren't "efficient" and "pro audio driver" typically mutually exclusive?


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## Whitebread (Jul 5, 2005)

I meant to say sensitivity, pardon.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Spencer321 said:


> i dont have a decibal level to hit or anything of the sort, my idea of loud would be loud enough that i can sing along and not hear myself... which i have done with 75watts on a 2 channel to some alpine type R componants with the passive crossover. so 3 ways active should be more than loud enough for me.


There you have it


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

exactly, so my listed setup RS225 RS125 and the seas domes are more than enough to accomplish that goal


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2007)

chad said:


> There you have it


word.

why even debate something like "loudness" from purely a subjective/opinion foundation, when "loudness" is just about the easiest thing in all of audio to _quantify_?

My advice : establish an SPL volume level you want to achieve. _Quantify_ it. Hell ... buy a Radio Shack SPL meter and start listening to music, noises, etc. Then, pick drivers and associated power requirements to reach the goal.

It's about the simplest "dimension" that you can design a system around. No need to endlessly debate various "opinions" on what's louder, how loud is loud, etc.


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

werewolf said:


> word.
> 
> why even debate something like "loudness" from purely a subjective/opinion foundation, when "loudness" is just about the easiest thing in all of audio to _quantify_?
> 
> ...


why would you give this advice? This makes absolutely no sense to me at all...


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2007)

By the way, referring back to the original question of the thread ...

Both _loudness_ and _accuracy_ lend themselves completely to objective analysis. We just covered _loudness_  The catgeory of "pleasing" or "sound quality' may have other dimensions, but _accuracy_ is revealed through solid, non-subjective analysis.

Accuracy means low distortion (for sinusoidal steady-state) and good transient response.

First step : set an SPL level you want to achieve. Next, recognizing that accurate power is very easy to come by, so you really only need to focus on accurate drivers ... that can deliver low distortion, and good transient response at the SPL levels desired. Make sure you understand and apply T/S parameters, as well as the large-signal parameters like xmax.

The search for _loudness_ and _accuracy_ are NOT subjective.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2007)

blowup said:


> why would you give this advice? This makes absolutely no sense to me at all...


loudness is completely QUANTIFIABLE.

This makes no sense to you?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

blowup said:


> why would you give this advice? This makes absolutely no sense to me at all...


Oh Jesus, don't get out much do you? What was "loud" to your mom? Did you find that loud too?

I see the "different levels at which different people call loud" battle every day.

Chad


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Well, Hoffman's Iron law is great if you put your speakers in free space. That little thing we have called cabin gain works out really well in our favor for getting lowend back.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2007)

chad said:


> Oh Jesus, don't get out much do you? What was "loud" to your mom? Did you find that loud too?
> 
> I see the "different levels at which different people call loud" battle every day.
> 
> Chad


me too. It frustrates me to no end, when people don't attach a meaningful, measurable SPL number on it.

Don't just say "i like it loud". Instead, say "i like midrange at 120dB ... i know, because i measured it." That way, when someone else wants to discuss "how loud they like it", there is something we call an OBJECTIVE FRAMEWORK for comparison and discussion.

If this sounds absurd to anyone, you really need to study some most basic principles of science and logic.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

What? Pretty much mutally INCLUSIVE.



blowup said:


> aren't "efficient" and "pro audio driver" typically mutually exclusive?


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## Whitebread (Jul 5, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Well, Hoffman's Iron law is great if you put your speakers in free space. That little thing we have called cabin gain works out really well in our favor for getting lowend back.


Even at 60-70hz? Ehhhh, I'm not so sure about that. Unless you've got a tiny, tiny car.


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## Whitebread (Jul 5, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> What? Pretty much mutally INCLUSIVE.


True, but I meant to say sensitivity anyway.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2007)

by the way, if you are looking for the extreme data point in the accuracy/loudness chart ... you'll probably find it with horns, as already suggested. Horns efficiently couple to the radiating airspace, meaning they deliver a given SPL with (probably) the least amount of driver movement. Things tend to be more linear (from a harmonic or intermod perspective) at small excursions. Hence, horn drivers tend to get you loud, accurately 

Yes, the other concern is frequency response accuracy ... and horns tend to require some work in this regard (as i understand it).


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## Whitebread (Jul 5, 2005)

werewolf said:


> by the way, if you are looking for the extreme data point in the accuracy/loudness chart ... you'll probably find it with horns, as already suggested. Horns efficiently couple to the radiating airspace, meaning they deliver a given SPL with (probably) the least amount of driver movement. Things tend to be more linear (from a harmonic or intermod perspective) at small excursions. Hence, horn drivers tend to get you loud, accurately
> 
> Yes, the other concern is frequency response accuracy ... and horns tend to require some work in this regard (as i understand it).


Yeah, so who wants to design a folding horn to put in my trunk with me? Eh??


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

chad said:


> Oh Jesus, don't get out much do you? What was "loud" to your mom? Did you find that loud too?
> 
> I see the "different levels at which different people call loud" battle every day.
> 
> Chad


I do get out, setting up systems to play them loud... Setting SPL number to a loud system ahead of time, unless you compete and SPL is your obective, is retarded... Assuming this system is designed to play music, you have to first establish the tonal balance at the level you want to achieve... This level is dictated by your ears, not by SPL numbers, this is the level where accuracy and tonality can still be maintained by all drivers in your system.... Unless you are into playing test tones... You can measure the SPL level corresponding to your idea of loudness afterwards if you are curious...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Why do you them to play that low?


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

werewolf said:


> by the way, if you are looking for the extreme data point in the accuracy/loudness chart ... you'll probably find it with horns, as already suggested. Horns efficiently couple to the radiating airspace, meaning they deliver a given SPL with (probably) the least amount of driver movement. Things tend to be more linear (from a harmonic or intermod perspective) at small excursions. Hence, horn drivers tend to get you loud, accurately
> 
> Yes, the other concern is frequency response accuracy ... and horns tend to require some work in this regard (as i understand it).


no disrespect to you or anyone else but you should start experimenting with some systems capable of getting loud in real life instead of theory...


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## Whitebread (Jul 5, 2005)

blowup said:


> no disrespect to you or anyone else but you should start experimenting with some systems capable of getting loud in real life instead of theory...


He has, just not with horns.


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Well, Hoffman's Iron law is great if you put your speakers in free space. That little thing we have called cabin gain works out really well in our favor for getting lowend back.


Perhaps an alternative viewpoint: the transfer function of your vehicle will undoubtedly raise SPL at lower frequencies, but the whole "size, low end, efficiency" rule also ties into the Qtc of the enclosure; yes, you can go smaller and keep some efficiency and low end because of the transfer function of your vehicle, but you still have a higher Q alignment with more ringing.

And with a speaker, you can go go with higher efficiency in smaller enclosures if you give up the bottom end, but you must recoup this performance via the enclosure and listening area, but efficiency below Fs is usually pretty poor regardless.

Still, I admit that I subscribe to small sealed in a vehicle with an LT.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Whitebread said:


> Even at 60-70hz? Ehhhh, I'm not so sure about that. Unless you've got a tiny, tiny car.


Oh yeah there is cabin gain there, certainly!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

werewolf said:


> me too. It frustrates me to no end, when people don't attach a meaningful, measurable SPL number on it.
> 
> Don't just say "i like it loud". Instead, say "i like midrange at 120dB ... i know, because i measured it." That way, when someone else wants to discuss "how loud they like it", there is something we call an OBJECTIVE FRAMEWORK for comparison and discussion.
> 
> If this sounds absurd to anyone, you really need to study some most basic principles of science and logic.


And psychology. For example, when I mix a rock band I go for the most powerful sound I can, it does not have to be balls out loud to derive this. For all intensive purposes the room will dictate the level at which you have to/ or can play at. Some guys do it with sheer volume and power, but by putting yout power in the right place and working on balance you can achieve a really loud dynamic "sound" and barely break 100 dBA. And I ain't talking raising average levels either, it's all about knowing your **** and how the human mind reacts to things.

Chad


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

<--- wants to learn more about that.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

blowup said:


> I do get out, setting up systems to play them loud... Setting SPL number to a loud system ahead of time, unless you compete and SPL is your obective, is retarded... Assuming this system is designed to play music, you have to first establish the tonal balance at the level you want to achieve... This level is dictated by your ears, not by SPL numbers, this is the level where accuracy and tonality can still be maintained by all drivers in your system.... Unless you are into playing test tones... You can measure the SPL level corresponding to your idea of loudness afterwards if you are curious...


So, you just basically just said that loud is objective


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

chad said:


> So, you just basically just said that loud is objective


I find someone flatulating in an empty room as very loud but cannot hear people yelling a couple of feet away from me while on freeway at 70 mph... How could that be?


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2007)

blowup said:


> no disrespect to you or anyone else but you should start experimenting with some systems capable of getting loud in real life instead of theory...


now that's funny!

so loudness _isn't_ objectively quantifiable?  

"i know loud when i hear it! my ears are all i need to tell me loud!" 

"you think that's loud? you don't know loud!"

LMFAO

amazing, this hobby of ours ....


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

werewolf said:


> now that's funny!
> 
> so loudness _isn't_ objectively quantifiable?
> 
> amazing, this hobby of ours ....


if you consider a collection of subjective opinions as an objective one, then I guess it would be... Of course you may be hard pressed arguing the point with a cop issuing a ticket under local noise control ordinances... Then again, I am sure if you present him with your explanation, he will be objective enough to listen...


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

blowup said:


> if you consider a collection of subjective opinions as an objective one, then I guess it would be... Of course you may be hard pressed arguing the point with a cop issuing a ticket under local noise control ordinances... Then again, I am sure if you present him with your explanation, he will be objective enough to listen...



I don't see why it's hard for you to accept werewolf's point.

Loudness can be measured and it's up to YOU to define your point of threshold. 

If you want loud, pls do tell how loud in decibles and not, "loud enough for me to beat the kid on the block"


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

sqkev said:


> I don't see why it's hard for you to accept werewolf's point.
> 
> Loudness can be measured and it's up to YOU to define your point of threshold.
> 
> If you want loud, pls do tell how loud in decibles and not, "loud enough for me to beat the kid on the block"


I do not know why... maybe that cause and effect thing?


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## solacedagony (May 18, 2006)

blowup said:


> I find someone flatulating in an empty room as very loud but cannot hear people yelling a couple of feet away from me while on freeway at 70 mph... How could that be?


That's probably because of perceived loudness due to noise floor. Obviously background noise will make it harder to hear something if that something stays the same volume (or SPL).


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2007)

blowup said:


> if you consider a collection of subjective opinions as an objective one, then I guess it would be... Of course you may be hard pressed arguing the point with a cop issuing a ticket under local noise control ordinances... Then again, I am sure if you present him with your explanation, he will be objective enough to listen...


dude, you really are clueless. i'll try it one more time.

Certainly, what one person considers to be "loud" is completely different than what another considers to be "loud". That should be obvious, to anyone.

HOWEVER, this does not mean that loudness is unquantifiable  In fact, just the opposite ... difference in _taste_ highlights the need for _objective_ measure. And it just so happens that "loudness", as SPL, is one of the easiest things to measure in audio. It is more easily quantifiable, perhaps, than any other aspect of acoustic radiation in a medium.

The VALUE of quantifying is without compare, in a discussion such as this. Person A "likes it loud". no no no ... person B likes it "really loud". What the hell does all that mean? Absolutely NOTHING ... without objective measure. And discussions like this 20 page thread illustrate that point perfectly.

One of the whole damn points of objective measure, and science in general, is to provide an _objectve framework_ for discussion. When someone says i like my midrange to be able to achieve 120dB SPL, that provides a MEANINGFUL basis for COMPARISON. Do you REALLY not understand this simple point?

FURTHERMORE, it provides a meaningful foundation for audio system design. Without it, you are wandering aimlessly in the dark (and yes, i do realize that aimless wandering is how many "experts" really do set up their systems LOL). How do you know if your 3" midrange with 20 watts of power will achieve your "loudness" goals ... without applying a logical, scientific process (efficiency, xmax, SPL at a given distance and frequency)? The answer is, you don't. And we spend endless time in threads like this, debating if driver x with power y is "LOUD".


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

solacedagony said:


> That's probably because of perceived loudness due to noise floor. Obviously background noise will make it harder to hear something if that something stays the same volume (or SPL).


now, there is an interesting concept that I have not seen mentioned yet...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

blowup said:


> if you consider a collection of subjective opinions as an objective one, then I guess it would be... Of course you may be hard pressed arguing the point with a cop issuing a ticket under local noise control ordinances... Then again, I am sure if you present him with your explanation, he will be objective enough to listen...


I have worked UNDER noise control situations with a dick next to me holding an SPL meter. As in "here's your big ass PA and a metal band, the "speed limit" is 100dB. Get there as fast as you want, do whatever you want but we are watching your every move on a meter. "

I still had to make it FEEL or APPEAR loud to the audience, it's all about giving the paying audience what the expect, to have their ass handed to them by a metal band. It's entirely possible and happens every day. Different people see loud as a different level or spectral balance, that's all there is to it and it's a well known fact.


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

werewolf said:


> dude, you really are clueless.


ouch... 

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/phon.html


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

So, if would have read that, you would have indeed seen that under ALL conditions other than with a tone, spectral balance can very much determine what is preceived as loud.

And you mom may think it's still too loud.


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

chad said:


> So, if would have read that, you would have indeed seen that under ALL conditions other than with a tone, spectral balance can very much determine what is preceived as loud.
> 
> And you mom may think it's still too loud.


Wow, what a brilliant thought... BTW, any references to my mother are uncalled for since this is not WOT...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

blowup said:


> BTW, any references to my mother are uncalled for since this is not WOT...


Considering circumstances elsewhere around here, I DID get a hell of a chuckle out of that.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2007)

blowup said:


> ouch...
> 
> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/phon.html


you are, without a doubt, more clueless than anyone would have guessed.

The link you provided mearly shows that perceived "loudness" is ALSO a function of frequency. In other words, a given SPL at 100 Hz will not have the same _perceived_ loudness at 1,000Hz.

No kidding!

And you think that means loudness is NOT quantifiable? Is that your conclusion? Oh no ... SPL also depends on frequency !!!! I guess we'll just have to abandon science altogether, and stick with words like "reall, really loud." 

Forget basic science and logic ... do you even know what these terms (SPL, frequency) mean?  

i can't stop laughing at this nonsense! I hope nobody reading actually takes your posts seriously  

By the way ... you've been on other boards, under different screen names, haven't you??


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

chad said:


> Considering circumstances elsewhere around here, I DID get a hell of a chuckle out of that.


I am glad YOU did


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## Peter_Euro (Oct 25, 2006)

werewolf said:


> you are, without a doubt, more clueless than anyone would have guessed.
> 
> The link you provided mearly shows that perceived "loudness" is ALSO a function of frequency. In other words, a given SPL at 100 Hz will not have the same _perceived_ loudness at 1,000Hz.
> 
> ...


I would not give you this link if I did not think it could not be quantifiable... I am fully aware it is... I use the same screenname BTW and keep on chuckling reading your stuff...


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## Preacher (May 8, 2006)

I want my sound system to double as my proctologist. 


dun been quantified.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Preacher said:


> I want my sound system to double as my proctologist.
> 
> 
> dun been quantified.


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## skylar112 (Dec 8, 2005)

ca90ss said:


>




hahaha I can't stop reading the whole post, and then looking at your icon the combination is funny.


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## jay (Sep 12, 2005)

werewolf said:


> you are, without a doubt, more clueless than anyone would have guessed.
> 
> The link you provided mearly shows that perceived "loudness" is ALSO a function of frequency. In other words, a given SPL at 100 Hz will not have the same _perceived_ loudness at 1,000Hz.
> 
> ...


jeff, you didn't get the memo? forwarding pm now


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

blowup= SQ4ME2


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## bottom3 (Jul 30, 2007)

"Hoffmans iron law owns you if you actually want to retain a usable footwell while using proaudio 8's. I have long planned on installing horns in my car and I really wanted to install some high efficiency pro audio woofers like the ones linked to in this thread. If you do install proaudio 8's, your going to need to provided them with a large ported enclosure to get them to play down to acceptable levels. FAR larger than anything a "normal" 8 inch woofer would require."

This is one reason I'm against pro-drivers, their parameters are never designed with small cabinet size in mind, at least not small in the car audio world. I mean you want loud, sure through an 18" peavy sub in their while your at it, it might play down to 38htz with a 8 cubic foot box. Can horns sound good, no doubt cymbols and vocals on horns can really really sound good, but can they sound harsh and scream at you, more often than not, yes.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And consumer speakers that really need 1.5 cubes ported to get lowend is much better suited for the car? Not to mention proaudio equipment is made to handle harsh weather and temp changes...they are over built for a reason.

Funny you mention large boxes...my JBL 2204Hs model really nice in .25-.3 cubes sealed, and they are 12" midbasses. My IDW15s want about 1.5 cubes sealed.


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## bottom3 (Jul 30, 2007)

I can wear a size 15 shoe, but I can't get into an 8.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And that means what?


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## bottom3 (Jul 30, 2007)

If the shoe fits wear it.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

So you have consumer grade equipment that needs large ported boxes or pro grade equipment that needs smaller sealed boxes...you get a larger driver per box size with the pro stuff.


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## bottom3 (Jul 30, 2007)

The pro drivers I've run numbers on require large enclosures. I use pro audio amps in my home system, because they deliver big time and are built like tanks. Most the drivers put spl before anything else, and to me it sounds like it.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Maybe you need to hear better setups.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

Spencer321 said:


> *so here is the question at hand is it possible to have ear bleeding loud(when i want to turn it up to drown out the CRAP) AND to also have extremely tight, like double pedal system of the down tight bass?*


depending on the vehicle,

yup, 

2 x 12w7 a strong electrical system 2000+ wrms and a good install. (horns probably)


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## bottom3 (Jul 30, 2007)

Maybe, I have to go by what I know. Plenty of headroom, active crossovers certain things tend to work for me. Horns haven't without lots of Eq, and pro drivers like I said tend to need large enclosures, even sealed.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

What proaudio horns have you used?


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## bottom3 (Jul 30, 2007)

My first experience with horns was with Klipsch, over time I've played with various seperates, the soundstage always lacks depth to me, sometimes they reveal too much in recordings, for me every track seeems to change the amount of Eq needed. Just never can get them in their sweet spot.


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

bottom3 said:


> My first experience with horns was with Klipsch, over time I've played with various seperates, the soundstage always lacks depth to me, sometimes they reveal too much in recordings, for me every track seeems to change the amount of Eq needed. Just never can get them in their sweet spot.


rtaftmfw.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

With all due respect the PWK, his speakers aren't the first nor the last word in horn design.


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## bottom3 (Jul 30, 2007)

Definitely not the IDQ horns I heard sounded good, but it took several hundred for the IDQ eq's also. The person in this thread doesn't want to spend that much.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

right! i mean i understand you dont get a great system for 300$ im lookin at 1200-1500 for headunit, 3ways, and amps to power them... basically 1200-1500 for everything except subwoofers and subwoofer amp. 

Cheap, loud, quality.... pick two


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

Spencer321 said:


> Cheap, loud, quality.... pick two


buy used and get all 3.


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

i cant win! lol


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

lukeboa said:


> buy used and get all 3.


THats what I said a few days ago....but does anyone listen to me?


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## Spencer321 (Sep 26, 2007)

i had a bad experience!


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## CBRworm (Sep 1, 2006)

What I recommend is that you go listen to some other people's systems and start from there. You should be able to at least narrow down the possiblities of what you want to run, and how much effort is involved.

Some people like the sound of MB Quart or Focal (which many people think are too bright) You might like DLS or Dynaudio (more expensive, and more laidback sound which some people don't like)

If I were to setup a basic front stage I would probably use the Seas Neo tweeter of your choice (good sound, easy to mount, inexpensive). I had good luck with the Seas CA21RNX for low mid-bass - it may or may not have the output you desire (you did say you could fit an 8 in the door correct?), then choose a mid of your choice. I choose the DLS IR3 dome - again easy to mount, good sound right out of the box. All of those drivers are very forgiving and don't require major equalization if the install is close. 

I am leary of the dayton metal drivers just because you need to know what you are doing to tame resonances. I have not played with any Dayton paper drivers. 

I would recommend the Alpine W200/205 head unit and an H701 processor -but that is only because I have had good luck with it and am familiar with it.

Amplifiers - I usually get the best I can afford. I look for the best quality for the mids/tweets - then something more affordable for midbass. I believe in good amps for the subs as well because they are switching a lot of current and I don't want something cheap in my car with a 200 amp fuse. 

Your on your own for the Bass Wall.


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