# horns!



## eviling

im thinking about running horns, i really honestly know nothing , but i think it's what I wanna run, im looking to do kick panels for my mids, with a 3 way setup, i have all my speakers, hybrid L8, L4SE, and i was thinking of doing a set of horns to keep it kind of stelth. i was gonna do tweeters up top with L1R2's in a pillars but i think it'll be a much better image with horns in my knee panels and the L4SE's in kicks :mean:

so if you guys could point me at some horns to look at, budget isn't to tight since i already have the R2's and i have a buyer whos lined up, i think ima just use that moneyt o swap out.


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## bassfromspace

eviling said:


> i'm dropping my tweeters, i plan on kick panels, and since i wanna run the mids in kicks (3 way setup) i just had the thought maybe I should run horns out of my knee pannels and see how they work, but i dont know much about horns. so could you guys point me in some directions that'd be super helpful  i mean the only THE ONLY set of horns ive ever heard were some high end image dynamic horns and i really enjoyed them.


There's a horn subforum here.


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## HIFIJIM

Buy these Image Dynamic Mini-horns:

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

these Selenium HLCDs:

Selenium D2500Ti-Nd-8 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8-18

and these adapters:

Selenium ADF25-25 Horn Adapter

If you set them up correctly with proper location, processing (active crossovers and high quality EQing like an Audison BitOne), I promise you will never, EVER go without horns again. After decades of running many, many high-end drivers, I went to this setup and will never go back. I now put horns in everything. ;-)

Also, if by some freak chance, you blow these HLCDs (I assure you, it WON'T be for lack of SPL), you can get these replacement diaphragms for next to nothing:

Selenium RPD220Ti-8 Diaphragm for D220Ti and D2500Ti

This means no more replacing expensive tweeters and you are good to go forever.


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## eviling

ahhh yeah i found those horn baffles on ebay, as well the 3 types ID seems to have,t heirs a 600$ set, a 350$ set, and another 350$ set with a dif style bezel. 

uhm, idk though im looking real high end, i am gonna run a 3sixty.3 for proecessing (once it comes out) currently run an ms-8. 

this is my current setup. 









i'm swaping out the l6's for L8's, the 10f's for hybrid L4SE's, and the tweeters for horns, is this a practical setup? from what im reading, horns tend to roll off in the upper end, i mean really only in the 15k range, which isnt to bad considering you really only hear up to 10k that really effts how things sound. but is this a good setup for horns? i read somehting abotu the amp on the horns needing a dedicated amp because of the impendence of the horns them selves push the amps kind of hard. so i do have some NX2's laying around i could swap in, but idk. i dont like mixing amps  but don't really matter. i run 2 pdx 4.150's and one pdx 1.1000. i'll be swaping out that single 12" for dual 15"s in IB.


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## HIFIJIM

Running the horns instead of tweeters is ideal because of their extended range (down to 1000hz before the mid takes over). That is the beauty of horns. Regarding your three-way setup, the point of horns is to run them in a two-way setup because this reduces the amount of drivers and subsequent crossover points. Less crossover manipulation equates to less phase shifting, etc. which equates to SIGNIFICANT sound quality improvement. 

You really won't notice the higher range (15k) roll-off on these. I have tried adding tweeters in my A-pillars, but I really do not like the way it makes my horns sound (too bright and unnatural). As far as high-end, it does not get any better than Image Dynamics for horn design. These are simply the BEST there is. Run the large bodies if you have the room (down to around 800hz) or run the mini bodies if you don't (down to 1000hz). That being said, the compression drivers are where you spend the money to get high-end sound quality. I run the Seleniums because they perform excellent, but for more money there are even better drivers out there. I personally wouldn't waste more money on pricier drivers because my setup performs fundamentally beyond what can possibly be accomplished in a vehicle environment. What I mean by that is when you consider the myriad of problems in a vehicle like phasing shifts, imaging, stage height, noise, distortion, etc., those issues will have the greatest affect on sound quality and in fact destroy what a good, solid system can do in an anechoic chamber. Basically, get high quality gear (like you already have) and invest the time with an O-scope and RTA. These things will set your system apart from all the rest because those are ALWAYS major issues.


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## HIFIJIM

Eric Stevens (the designer of ID horns) recently left the Image Dynamics company and started a new forum with his partner Matt Borgardt. This is an excellent place to ask questions and do some further research into horns.

http://www.backyardinstallers.com/forum/

The forum is down tonight for some reason, but I would imagine it should be back tomorrow. Probably too much traffic for their servers ;-)


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## eviling

hmmm, well really the biggest selling point to me is the imaging of a horn, plus a horn's physical instilation will save me days of fabrication on pillars. I am still unsure really if this is a good move but its starting to look like it's not done often with a 3 way setup in the tweeter ranges, in fact, they seem to be used as mid ranges more often than tweeters in 3 way setups from what ive read so far.

but these L4SE's can pretty much run tweeterless so running them only to 1200 is quite a waste of talent, BUT if we get a good image and sound out of it..maybe? we'll see I guess


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## MBorgardt

Sorry my forums are down for a bit doing some changes... any questions I will be happy to answer or Eric on the subject of horns.


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## TokoSpeaker

Mr. Matt Borgardt, nice to see you again in this forum.

I need your advise for HPF and LPF if my systems like this below :
1. RAAL 70-10D AM 
2. HLCD CDUltra MH.
3. Accuton C90-6-78 / Seas Excel W16NX001 / Micro Precision Z100.
4. Accuton C173-6-191. / Image Dynamics XS69 / Skaaning 7" / Dynaudio Esotar2 E650 /Seas Excel W18EX001.

Which midrange or mid bass better?
How about the cutting frequency for HPF and LPF?

Thank you.


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## eviling

MBorgardt said:


> Sorry my forums are down for a bit doing some changes... any questions I will be happy to answer or Eric on the subject of horns.


I would love to hear some expert opinion on horns on the high end of a 3 way setup.





TokoSpeaker said:


> Mr. Matt Borgardt, nice to see you again in this forum.
> 
> I need your advise for HPF and LPF if my systems like this below :
> 1. RAAL 70-10D AM
> 2. HLCD CDUltra MH.
> 3. Accuton C90-6-78 / Seas Excel W16NX001 / Micro Precision Z100.
> 4. Accuton C173-6-191. / Image Dynamics XS69 / Skaaning 7" / Dynaudio Esotar2 E650 /Seas Excel W18EX001.
> 
> Which midrange or mid bass better?
> How about the cutting frequency for HPF and LPF?
> 
> Thank you.


no thread jacking, make your own thread or PM him if you have a question, in a normal topic a little off topic is fine but this is not the place.


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## Horsemanwill

in all honesty if your gonna run 3 way with horns you won't need any midrange. most that run a 3 waysetup with horns go for a super tweet. you get an effecient mid to keep up with the horns and you won't need anything else. as for the sound stage make sure you have it properly installed as far under and out as possible use to be the rule of thumb. 

if u have the ms8 right now matt loves it paired with the horns.


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## TokoSpeaker

eviling said:


> I would love to hear some expert opinion on horns on the high end of a 3 way setup.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no thread jacking, make your own thread or PM him if you have a question, in a normal topic a little off topic is fine but this is not the place.


I apologize before...
Thank you.


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## subwoofery

eviling said:


> im thinking about running horns, i really honestly know nothing , but i think it's what I wanna run, im looking to do kick panels for my mids, with a 3 way setup, i have all my speakers, hybrid L8, L4SE, and i was thinking of doing a set of horns to keep it kind of stelth. i was gonna do tweeters up top with L1R2's in a pillars but i think it'll be a much better image with horns in my knee panels and the L4SE's in kicks :mean:
> 
> so if you guys could point me at some horns to look at, budget isn't to tight since i already have the R2's and i have a buyer whos lined up, i think ima just use that moneyt o swap out.


You have to read up about horns a bit more before buying some for your system. The main selling points of horns are: shorter PLD, efficiency and low distorsion. 
If you plan to use some HLCD, then you will need to sell your L4SE, your L6 and your L8 - not efficient enough and those drivers will only keep your system under the water. 

If you take the ID CD1e v.3 (107dB 1w/1m) and put 1 watt, you'll need around 150-170 watts to your L8 (85.xxdB 1w/1m) in order to be able to play at the same level. 2 watts and you'll need 300-340 watts to your L8. This is not taking power compression into account... 

Trust me, I have an X65 (91.xxdB 1w/1m) with 200 watts and I have my gains set almost all the way down on my ID CD1e v.3 and had a hard time getting them to blend correctly (level wise). 

Kelvin 

Kelvin


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## HIFIJIM

As you can see, others are saying the same things that I explained. Basically, one must commit to horns and then redesign the entire system around them in order to do it correctly and effectively. You need the correct amps (ultra-clean, low power for the horns and high power for the mids) and the correct drivers (high quality HLCDs and some highly efficient mids (many people run pro audio drivers here)). Basically, most ditch the high-end, conventional drivers and start from scratch.


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## eviling

sounds like this plans a flop


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## Horsemanwill

browse this forum read on what a few of the horn ppl in here are using to team up with the horns they have and look at the power ratio. your gonna want it about 1:3:3


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## minbari

currently I have a pair of ID x65 in the doors and I am giving them about 20-25 watts and the horns are getting about 1-2 watts. the horns are still too loud sometimes, lol. 

if you want to do horns, you are really looking at starting over. you wont be able to just slap a pair of horn in and call it good. a pair of really efficient 8" or a pair of 6.5" per door (4 total) then add about 200 watts of power to the doors and 25-50 watts to the horns and you will should be doing pretty well.

also, if you dont have an EQ in the mix, seriously consider it. the freq response of the horns has a couple peaks that will need to be cut to tame them down a bit. (just my opinion on this)


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## masswork

Instead of choosing amps, speakers that match with horn,
we can also match it using digital level adjustment.

So, just find a processor or HU that's capable of playing active and allow level adjustment individually per channel. 

I've just setup my friend's ID mini horn last weekend. 3 way configuration.
In the processor i set -6dB for horn, and set the gain a little lower.
The sound is spectacular. Really worth it.


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## subwoofery

masswork said:


> Instead of choosing amps, speakers that match with horn,
> we can also match it using digital level adjustment.
> 
> So, just find a processor or HU that's capable of playing active and allow level adjustment individually per channel.
> 
> I've just setup my friend's ID mini horn last weekend. 3 way configuration.
> In the processor i set -6dB for horn, and set the gain a little lower.
> The sound is spectacular. Really worth it.


You're still holding your system down that way. Low distorsion, efficiency and dynamics are the reason why horns are used. 

Kelvin


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## Eric Stevens

masswork said:


> Instead of choosing amps, speakers that match with horn,
> we can also match it using digital level adjustment.
> 
> So, just find a processor or HU that's capable of playing active and allow level adjustment individually per channel.
> 
> I've just setup my friend's ID mini horn last weekend. 3 way configuration.
> In the processor i set -6dB for horn, and set the gain a little lower.
> The sound is spectacular. Really worth it.


While this works great and is a good way to get started. You are not getting the full potential.

If you liked what you heard, then you are in for even more enjoyment when you get the system designed and set up as a whole.

When you get an efficient midbass with the proper power distribution with the horns it brings the dynamics to life and gives you live life like sound.

Eric


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## masswork

Eric Stevens said:


> While this works great and is a good way to get started. You are not getting the full potential.
> 
> If you liked what you heard, then you are in for even more enjoyment when you get the system designed and set up as a whole.
> 
> When you get an efficient midbass with the proper power distribution with the horns it brings the dynamics to life and gives you live life like sound.
> 
> Eric


Really really really like it!

I think my friend who own the system contacted you several days ago. asking for tips  
He uses horn to replace Scan 12M - big difference. 

And now he's a happy and proud owner


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## Eric Stevens

masswork said:


> Really really really like it!
> 
> I think my friend who own the system contacted you several days ago. asking for tips
> He uses horn to replace Scan 12M - big difference.
> 
> And now he's a happy and proud owner


Glad you like it 

Yep I have been helping someone from Indo.

If it is the same person he has Silver Flute midbass which are a high efficiency mid bass driver.

Putting more power to it just makes it all that much better and corrupts you for life turning you into a certified power junky always in search of more 

Eric


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## masswork

Yep,
that's him 

I think he's using ARC amp bridged for the silver flute. 

Me, like it? 
Well... everybody  
He gave demo to some people, and everybody says it's amazing.

Makes me think to put one in my car too


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## TokoSpeaker

masswork said:


> Yep,
> that's him
> 
> I think he's using ARC amp bridged for the silver flute.
> 
> Me, like it?
> Well... everybody
> He gave demo to some people, and everybody says it's amazing.
> 
> Makes me think to put one in my car too


Indonesia people not very familiar with HLCD tuning, with your help Mr. Masswork the tuning for this HLCD will be better.

You can contact me to buy this HLCD.

HLCD Eric Stevens Audio is one of the best in the world.


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## Fully.lebay

masswork said:


> Instead of choosing amps, speakers that match with horn,
> we can also match it using digital level adjustment.
> 
> So, just find a processor or HU that's capable of playing active and allow level adjustment individually per channel.
> 
> I've just setup my friend's ID mini horn last weekend. 3 way configuration.
> In the processor i set -6dB for horn, and set the gain a little lower.
> The sound is spectacular. Really worth it.


Agree, it's amazing sound for me, very live and dynamic

every body happy, me and them (my installers) 

I run silver flute mid with arc ks300.4 bridged, but still need more gain adjusting to match the horn sound (very much loud)


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## masswork

TokoSpeaker said:


> Indonesia people not very familiar with HLCD tuning, with your help Mr. Masswork the tuning for this HLCD will be better.
> 
> You can contact me to buy this HLCD.
> 
> HLCD Eric Stevens Audio is one of the best in the world.


After my ribbon project okay?

Before hijacking this thread.
My post was just to give an idea to the TS of what can be done.
Since he already have other speakers in hand.


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## TokoSpeaker

Fully.lebay said:


> Agree, it's amazing sound for me, very live and dynamic
> 
> every body happy, me and them (my installers)
> 
> I run silver flute mid with arc ks300.4 bridged, but still need more gain adjusting to match the horn sound (very much loud)


I remember the first time you bought the HLCD.
You did not believe that these HLCD will sound great and very beautiful.
And you did not believe about the sound stage that will created by HLCD.

   

Now, you realized about what I said about the beautiful sound that can produce by HLCD.
Once you listen to HLCD, you will never looked back to conventional drivers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

About two months ago, there was a JBL MS-8 AutoSound Competition in Jakarta.
My team from Bandung joined the FFA Class, which judge by Mr. Garry Biggs.

He said this HLCD has a great tonal balance among other contestants.

Unlucky, I did not get the chance to win this competition.
A lot of points loses because of the headunit that I use was McIntosh MX4000 which did not have the remote control, also I did not put the centre speaker and surround speakers.

Our team got the 4th place which points only 118, while the 1st winner is 126.

Thank you so much for the testimonial, Mr. Full Lebay.


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## subwoofery

masswork said:


> Instead of choosing amps, speakers that match with horn,
> we can also match it using digital level adjustment.
> 
> So, just find a processor or HU that's capable of playing active and allow level adjustment individually per channel.
> 
> I've just setup my friend's ID mini horn last weekend. 3 way configuration.
> In the processor i set -6dB for horn, and set the gain a little lower.
> The sound is spectacular. Really worth it.


-6dB with a 91dB efficient driver (Silver Flute). Just imagine with the L8 (85dB efficient driver), you'll need to use a -12dB setting. Not worth it IMO - he'll be better off with conventional drivers. 

Kelvin


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## Fully.lebay

subwoofery said:


> You're still holding your system down that way. Low distorsion, efficiency and dynamics are the reason why horns are used.
> 
> Kelvin


No doubt, with horn we'll get magical tonal when turn it up loud enough  not in small volume

just curious, how others listen and enjoy your horn ... ehhehehhe ..  I get headache and my ear is sick :laugh: 

currently I have 2 system, horn and scanspeak 2way .. when need to enjoy sweet music I'll go ss .. for stress release purpose with Horn of course .. :laugh::laugh::laugh: ... sorry joking


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## eviling

subwoofery said:


> -6dB with a 91dB efficient driver (Silver Flute). Just imagine with the L8 (85dB efficient driver), you'll need to use a -12dB setting. Not worth it IMO - he'll be better off with conventional drivers.
> 
> Kelvin


I agree. although the L1R2's are 91 efficiant. your saying the horns are 97db efficiant. I also very much am thinking about doing something like the DLS scandinavians. their much larger though, the install with the R2's will look better, although the scan's will look good too, just not as clean as the R2's but idk. I guess i'll have to wait to get some testing in with my new drivers in different positions, its gonna be allot of position testing too because i wanna try tweeters in A pillars with mids in kicks, but we'll see how that works i guess.


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## minbari

eviling said:


> I agree. although the L1R2's are 91 efficiant. your saying the horns are 97db efficiant. ..............


they are actually 107-110 dB depending which model you get.


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## eviling

minbari said:


> they are actually 107-110 dB depending which model you get.


I believe it. their loud by their very nature.


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