# The Far Out Son of Lung and the Ramblings of a Mad Man



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Last week I received an email asking about things I've tried that have worked, and things I've tried that were a dead end. Thought it would be fun to document that.

And, obviously, I'd be curious to find out what things have and haven't worked for you.

These are in no particular order.

Things that didn't work:











*Steep crossovers*
I find that steep crossovers 'ring', and that I'm particularly sensitive to this. When it comes to audio, all of use are sensitive to different things, and this is one type of 'signature' that I find particularly offensive. I generally use crossovers with a slope of 12dB to 24dB or so. It's difficult to achieve a true 6dB/octave rolloff because the drivers natural rolloff generally accelerates the slope dramatically. For this reason, if you use Linkwitz Riley crossovers on a driver, you typically end up with a rolloff on the order of 5th or 6th order. (The only time that this is NOT true is if you use a midrange and tweeter that are flat for at least one or two octaves above *and* below the xover point. For instance, if you have a tweeter with an Fb of 500hz and you cross over at 2khz. This is why Dynaudio tweeters are so big and beefy, they're designed for first-order slopes.)










*Vented boxes.*
If you look at the group delay of a vented box, there's a big 'spike' in the group delay which occurs at the tuning frequency. I find that this 'spike' makes the box sound sluggish and slow. You can minimize this, but I generally prefer sealed boxes, single reflex bandpass, front loaded horns and tapped horns.










*dual-reflex bandpass*
While I don't think these enclosures are hopeless, I find that they're very difficult to get right. I think it's telling that Bose has stopped selling them, after using them for almost twenty years, and now they're selling transmission lines. Also, Bose has a patent on dual-reflex, this is likely why you don't see a lot of them.










*really small tapped horns*
Theoretically, you can make a tapped horn as small as you'd like. You could even make one that was small enough to fit in your palm, if you were so inclined. As the box size gets smaller, the response will get worse. But you can offset some of that by using multiple drivers to smooth out the response. Well, theoretically anyways.

*In the real world, I found that very small tapped horns simply stop behaving like a tapped horn.* If you look at the impedance curve, it doesn't look like a tapped horn. Not sure if that was due to my crappy construction, or something else. But I'd argue that very small tapped horns are more trouble than they're worth. If you don't have enough space for a tapped horn, just use a sealed box. (Or if you *really* want a tapped horn, then use a woofer that's small enough so that the mouth of the horn is at least twice as large as the surface area of the driver.) Basically, be careful about making a tapped horn crazy-small, because at some point it seems to stop acting like a tapped horn.










*All of that audiophile nonsense*
Audiophiles seem to be wrapped up in a lot of stuff which is just completely inaudible in a car, or at least it is to me. I've never heard an expensive interconnect or speaker cable which made an audible difference. I've heard some *very* subtle differences in DACs, but nothing significant enough to deal with the hassle of listening to CDs instead of an iPod, iPad or iPhone. (All of my car sources are IOS, except for my head unit.)

I am completely mystified by the forum boner for amplifiers from the 90s. My favorite amps are Tripath, not because of some magic sonic signature, but simply because they have less noise than all the Class AB amps I've tried. For a couple years I was using fairly nice gear from Zapco, but I sold it as I didn't think it was sonically superior to a plain ol' Class T amp. If anything, it was inferior, simply because the Class T amp could get louder and had less noise.

I do have *one* concession to audiophile weirdnes - I've noticed that I'm very sensitive to timing problems, and I *do* find that high-jitter sources sound offensive.










*dome tweeters and ribbons*
On paper, ribbons and dome tweeters have a lot of advantages. They're easy to work with, and ribbons theoretically get you 'closer to the music', since they're such simple devices.
But the distortion just makes me nuts. The output levels that you can get from a compression driver are just so amazing. YES compression drivers are a complete p.i.t.a. to work with, but the results are just head and shoulders above what you can do with a dome or a ribbon.









*line arrays*
Never heard a line array that did anything right, except get really loud. Imaging is huge and bloated. It's a neat audio 'trick' if you've never heard it before, but it gets tedious when everything you listen to is ten feet tall. Can't figure out why the Absolute Sound is so obsessed with them. I agree with Danley's assessment here:http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/line-array-paper.pdf









*Underdash horns*
I spent years and years and years trying to get these things to sound good, and was never successful. If you look in the classifieds here, you'll see them for sale all the time. Seems like a lot of people give 'em a try for a while, get sick of trying to tame them, and give up. IMHO, there's one big problem with underdash horns. The first is that the directivity is narrow in one axis, and wide in the other. This directivity mismatch makes it nearly impossible to find a midrange or midbass that will blend. The solution to this problem is get the midranges onto the horn, which is what I do.

Full disclosure - the only commercial underdash horns I've heard are from USD. I've owned, listened to, and measured horns from 18Sound, QSC, Geddes, and JBL. But all of those horns were not intended for the car. The QSC horns are small enough to fit in the car.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Here's a list of things which *did* work. In no particular order:









*Infinite Baffle Midbasses*
Back in the 90s I took the wheels off of my Ford Escort, cut a hole in the car, and dropped Dynaudio midbasses in the hole. A la Earl Zausmer. (That's his car, not mine.)

This worked pretty well.










*Infinite Baffle Subwoofers *
If there's an easier way to get good bass in a car than infinite baffle subs, I don't know what it is. It doesn't take up a lot of space, and it gives you the luxury of using VERY high displacement woofers. It has the potential to sound better than any other subwoofer type.

IMHO, the reason that IB subs sound so good is because of group delay. If you look at the group delay curve of a subwoofer, you'll see that it gets very high at resonance. For instance, if you put a 12" sub with an FS of 25hz into a sealed box, the resonance will get bumped up to 40 or 50hz. *And at that frequency, the group delay will be very high, much higher than it is an octave above or below resonance.*

Why is this important? Because it can make the bass sound sluggish or slow.

In an infinite baffle, there is still a resonance, but it is much lower. For instance, instead of taking a 10" woofer with an FS of 25hz and sticking it in a sealed box where the FB goes to 40hz, we're taking a 15" woofer with an FS of 18hz and sticking it in an infinite baffle, where it might go to 20 or 22hz. *Due to the very large box size, the FB is lower in frequency, where it's less audible.* In fact, considering that there's very little music content below 30hz, the group delay may be damn near inaudible.









*Unity horns on the dash*
While they were ugly as sin, my Unity horns on the dash were probably the best sounding system I've every done. Unity horns do a bunch of things right, that other speakers do not. Intelligibility, articulation, the ability to take a magnifying glass to a recording. They're the only speakers I've ever heard which can come pretty close to making it sound like you're not listening to speakers in car. (Basically, on the right recording, it's almost like the whole dash disappears.)

If you've followed some of my threads, you'll notice that I've been utterly obsessed with getting these scaled down to a point where they can work in a car.

Unity horns are not perfect, but the main problem with them is making them small enough so that the car is still drivable. It's hard to get them to mate to a midbass because there's a real audible transition from midrange to midbass, which is the whole reason I obsess about getting them to play as much bandwidth as I can.

Also, if you use midranges or midbasses which are too large, the sound starts to get pretty rough. But this is a problem common to any horn. If the horn is too small, it doesn't sound good. (A horn is an impedance transformer. This is why I tend to use very small drivers with very light cones. The smaller and lighter the cone is, the smoother the response when the horn is too small.)









*Homster Horn*
I was floored by how much better the USD horns sounded when you add a roundover and reticulated foam. Night and day difference, and easy to implement. Measured results confirm that it's better.

On the downside, you still have the directivity problem that's common to all underdash horns IMHO, so that's why I'm not running underdash horns









*Paralines*
IMHO, the single most exciting thing I've seen in audio in years. Paralines solve so many problems in audio it's ridiculous. Paralines offer many of the benefits of underdash horns, but in a package that's 1.25" deep instead of six or eight inches deep.









*tweeters really close together*
This project was really a trip. It's documented in the thread titled 'anyone tried using one tweeter?'
Basically, this project was inspired by a masters project from a student in Florida. The student found that you can potentially use a mono tweeter at high frequency, instead of dual stereo tweeters. The reason that this (may) be possible is because our perception of location at high frequency is dictated by intensity. In other words, if your left and right speakers don't match 100%, high frequency sounds will NOT be centered. But the odd thing is that the actual location of the tweeters doesn't matter all that much, as long as they're at the right height! (Strange but true.)

It's a really strange project, one of those 'you wouldn't believe this unless you heard it' projects. But it really got me to re-assess how we hear things, and it had me screwing around with OPSODIS and ambiophonics for quite a while there.

In fact, I'd argue that the best soundstage I've ever heard was with an ambio setup.

The main reason that I ditched the ambio setup is that it only sounds good if you're seated right in front of the speakers, and in the car, that's impossible. (Unless you put both speakers on the drivers side, which I considered.)









*Phase-coherent crossovers*
Yes, I know there's an argument that phase is not audible. Perhaps I'm just very sensitive to it. But I also find it interesting that phase-coherent speakers from companies like Dynaudio, Vanderstien, and Quad have become classics. Coincidence? I don't think so.


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

Subscribed, since I want to know the result with line arrays project just to fulfill my curiousity. Heh heh heh

And Patrick why don't you mentioned about your tweeter spheres project? I've got great result with that enclosures. Thx you.


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## shnitz (Jun 13, 2011)

Man, do I agree with you about the "audiophile nonsense." Which is why I love the Audio Myths subforum here, where objective, educated discussions overrule the subjective placebo results, with people's personal prejudices coloring their results. You haven't heard an audible difference with interconnects because for the most part, there are no audible differences between interconnects, haha. With home audio, you'll see scrubs that pay $200 for a power cable and swear up and down that it did something to the sound quality. But then, they don't have an answer when you open up their wall and show them the cabling that the electricity took from the street to the wall outlet, or the power lines from the plant to their house. Whoops.

I definitely agree that sound quality is about equal between all the various headunits (Pioneer, Sony, Alpine, Kenwood/JVC, Clarion, etc). The difference is tuning options (number of EQ bands, HPF/LPF, etc) and convenience options (Bluetooth, HD radio, USB control, etc). Different companies may have different base EQ curves on the headunits, but overall quality is about equal. Heck, it's about equal between the lowest and highest model of a specific company's line!


I'll add overpowering speakers to the list as well. People are worried about headroom (nonsense), and providing enough power to a speaker, without realizing that when you don't have the volume cranked, you're really not sending that much power out! I always challenge people to go stick a digital multimeter or oscilloscope on their speaker leads when listening at normal volumes to their home audio or car audio setups, just to see how little wattage they are actually using at realistic listening levels. As long as you're not running into audible distortion, I don't see why people are over-building their car setups.

Also, I never got that nonsense about amps from the 90's either. I think at some point, people got into their heads that an amp making more than rated power was the primary consideration of whether an amp was good or not. So if there were two amps that were about the same spec-wise, down to even the price, but one was rated at 90Wx2 and another was rated at 60Wx2, even though they both provided the same power people would be ga-ga'ing over the 60Wx2 amp as if it were the second coming of Christ.


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

dont forget about bang and oulfsen wave reflectors... 











or mounting drivers far away using a 1\4 wave guide


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

asawendo said:


> Subscribed, since I want to know the result with line arrays project just to fulfill my curiousity. Heh heh heh
> 
> And Patrick why don't you mentioned about your tweeter spheres project? I've got great result with that enclosures. Thx you.


I never tried it myself!










The idea came from listening to my Gedlee Summas day in and day out for months, and being a bit mystified that such a large speaker could 'disappear.' I think the waveguide is part of it, but I have a hunch that the enclosure is playing a larger part. I've heard speakers with excellent waveguides that have square edges, and they just don't image the same way.

As you can see in the pic above, these are BIG speakers. That's a 55" TV that the Summas are sitting next to, and the Summa dwarfs it. Also, the reason why it looks like such a mess is that I took this pic while I was building the tapped horn that's there in the background. I had to build the sub *inside* of my house because it was too large to fit through the door.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

So -

What have you guys tried that worked well? *And what *didn't* work?*


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Didn't work well:

Rebuilding the dash in my old car.
Inefficient speakers
Resistive Damped Operation for the subs.

Worked well:

Aura Whispers...yeah I know what I said above, but I do love those little guys
Logic 7 with a big center and good surrounds.
Digital only output from my deck. What a PITA that was.
Horns and unity style horns.
Amps with no or little crossover distortion on high efficiency mids/highs.
Foam in the horns.

Potential to work well, didn't mess with enough:

Rear midbasses. Promising initial trials.
Unity horns. Larger horns with more mids would have given better output. May try again.


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## shnitz (Jun 13, 2011)

My "what worked well" is boring; it's just a list of solid advice you'd give to a beginner. I'd liken it to something like the Atkins fad: you can have a bunch of Harvard and Stanford educated nutritionists just giving good information about eating well, and you'd never hear their names. Then someone like Atkins comes along and says something outlandish like "cut out carbs," and he becomes a household name. So, I'm just going to happily live in obscurity with my "boring" enhancements that have worked well for me and are honestly the basis for good sound (big proponent of "Keep it simple, stupid"): enlarging the speaker holes in the doors to fit a larger transducer, kick panel speakers, components with the tweeters mounted in the A-pillars or upper door panels, etc. There's no magic about reproducing sound; it's just well-understood basic science. I lead a pretty happily boring life over here


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

I had tweeters in spheres mounted roughly 3/4" off the A-pillars. For the first time my tweeters had virtually disappeared even though they were in front of my eyes. It was great while they lasted.

I moved on to 2" widebanders on the dash with no tweeters. I'm loving that even more, although I wish the stage width and depth was greater.

6.5" subwoofers in the front doors is working well, although it took a lot of acoustic treatments to get that to "wow" me. I learned a lot about sound deadening from that project.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Thanks Patrick, for summing up some of your projects over the decades.

About the paraline... was that the one where the console was the divider between the speakers?


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

What has worked-
Midbass mounted/cut into the floor
Kick panels worked great in Cars 
Midrange and Tweeter more off-axis in more like rounded/sphere enclosures works well
Tweeters in sail panels actually worked better in many areas than in the A-Pillars
Rear fill actually worked, however still debating the outcome vs. cost, time, tuning
IB worked so well that anytime I can do IB that is what I do to include midbass drivers

What did not work well-
Kick panels in a truck and SUV
Midbass in the doors, tried this in cars, trucks and SUVs 
A-pillars midrange and tweeter on-axis, was just never a fan and could never get it to sound correct, sitting anywhere near the passenger seat was basically unlistenable when trying to tune for driver.
Truck cut through with sealed sub enclosure, never got it to sound right
Center console sub in the truck, never got this to sound right
large Trucks and SUV's are a huge pain the ass to get sound right vs. a car. It can be done but it takes a lot of modifications to get there. 


I have gotten both 2-way and 3-way to work very good. However I cannot say that a 3-way is far superior to just a 2-way. It is much harder to tune and IMO I can accomplish 95-97% and maybe 1% better with a 3-way.

Things in future to try-
Point Source driver set-up
AP enclosure in my own vehicle
AMT Tweeters in a vehicle


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## donnieL72 (Jun 20, 2012)

I used to do alot of off the wall stuff to try to make it sound good:

What didn't work:
Putting tweeters in the side window defrost ductwork. Sounded horrible. I was experimenting with widening the soundstage. 

Adjusting the crossovers to overlap to keep the "dip" out. Phase issues out the butt.

Using a Rockford Fosgate Symmetry. Nice unit, but it had a very high noise floor that I couldn't get to go away no matter how hard I tried. I put alot of time into the install of this and even put the control head flush mounted in my driver's side sun visor. I went back to the Audio Control EQTs.

Mounting tweeters on the rear view mirror facing the windshield. Made my soundstage sound like it was shaped like a backward W.

What did work:

Install a 4" midrange in my center air conditioning duct firing up. I powered this off of a Audio Control center channel processor with a built in amp. It was very stealthy and could be adjusted by just turning the control knob. 

Putting 6 1/2" mid basses in the rear deck. I played with adjusting the sound with resistors to lower the volume a bit and passive low pass crossovers to keep it under 200 Hz. They were ran off the same 2 channel amp that the front mid-basses were powered by. The sealed sub enclosure was sealed off from the trunk to keep the mid-basses happy.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Things that work for me... Vented enclosures... well.... purpose built ones. The Group delay does not bug me as much when tuned low.

Minimalistic EQ, I'm not against EQ, I'm against going batshit crazy with it.. It makes the phase response go to **** and this "I believe" is the fastest way to get a system to sound lifeless with no sense of cohesion.

Using the crossover AS an EQ. Instead of crossing at 2.5 K with both drivers then finding out you have a spike there, then cutting it with EQ. Do your attenuation with the crossover by avoiding it a bit.

Crossing the sub higher than most, it's really a no-brainer that most car audio guys don't understand because they run tiny enclosures and a low crossover which is nothing more than a crude Linkwitz alignment.

Therefore, enclosures that look good anechoic while ignoring "transfer function." I can EQ that **** out if I want, or, novel concept, turn the sub down. What most gain in "headroom" by quadrupling power I can achieve the same with a 6dB more efficient enclosure design. Read, less power compression and less sag on my electrical system.

Measurement based time alignment. I don't care who you are, period, you cannot see bacteria with reading glasses. You can get close, but by that time you can smell it too.

Taking my time and thinking something though, especially being older/experienced and having the realization that what seems like a great idea now is not going to be a good idea in a week.. Put the saw, or knife, or epoxy down.

What has not worked.. Things in kickpanels, ever. Before DSP it was a great way to get path-lengths equal, unfortunately any part of my body from the head down does not have ears, especially my knees and ankles. It never ever works for me, not even in cars where people say it works for them. I would, however, try dedicated midbasses or subs in the kicks someday, I do like that _idea_.

My most thought out mistake.... The first idea with the civic, knowing that the driver's side tweet was off axis by a predictable amount was to purchase a tweeter with a predictable and easily corrected off-axis response. So I did that, and corrected for it. What dipshit Chad forgot to account for was the early reflection OFF OF THE SPEEDO CLUSTER HUMP then off the window and into my left ear, subsequently making everything in my left eye a bit more vivid in color. That was "I shoulda had a V8 moment."

I tried an isobaric enclosure when I was way way younger.. all the bass half the space right? Huge failure.

Asking my wife for advice... Total buzzkill. We no longer ask each other advice about each other's hobbies... EVER.


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

Worked well

Tweeter/Full ranges in spheres









Aperiodic Membrane for Midbass










Didn't work

Large Ribbon Midrange


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

asawendo said:


> Worked well
> 
> Tweeter in spheres


I thought the whole point of using spheres was to eliminate/reduce diffraction. Seems to me as though the grill used in the pic above would basically undo everything the sphere was supposed to accomplish.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Didn't work:

-Large midbases in doors : Problem is the door isn't big enough for them to act as if they were really IB and didn't sound as good. Also midbase didn't get any better, they only were better at playing base and rattling. Moving my SLS8's from doors to a read deck IB really highlighted the difference. IB in the trunk, the midbase was phenominal compared to in smaller doors.

-having midrange and tweeters on the dash on axis.

-small sealed enclosured (dash pods, kick pannels) for relativly big speakers (6 1\2). Sound always comes out strange and unatural. .

What does work

Surround sound (Logic 7) with a center speaker: sounds good from all seats. Midbase and impact comes from up front without crossing over low.

Smaller door mounted drivers not crossed over to low.

subwoofer crossed close to higher... (80 to 100hz).


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Niebur3 said:


> I thought the whole point of using spheres was to eliminate/reduce diffraction. Seems to me as though the grill used in the pic above would basically undo everything the sphere was supposed to accomplish.


And the lip, you want the sphere basically behind the driver so there is literally no baffle at all.


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

Niebur3 said:


> I thought the whole point of using spheres was to eliminate/reduce diffraction. Seems to me as though the grill used in the pic above would basically undo everything the sphere was supposed to accomplish.


Heh heh all right all right... I put the grill just for temporary protection ( since I have a naughty son) 

Here is the actual pics in my car.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

What hasn't worked for me:
- small cars. Seriously  i would buy the biggest vehicle that I could if all I cared about was SQ. It will make so many problems go away. Large enclosures, amp mounting locations, getting "dry" bass with no standing waves or room modes... Less reflections, bigger dash, etc.. I could go on 
- every off-the shelf DSP and aftermarket head unit that I've tried (mostly for non-SQ reasons)
- expecting that an "auto tune" would be an easy way to make my car sound great
- three-way active has been a big PITA, barely worth it in the end.

Seems to have worked for me:
- Low inductance speakers with lots of power handling
- ring radiators
- Logic 7 and other phase steering techniques. Not a freebie, still needs lots of tuning to get the speakers to disappear. Still haven't found one that I'm 100% happy with, which really tempts me to write one myself that does exactly what I want.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Most of mine are dupes of others, so posting mostly for "+1" tally...

What worked: 
- IB 15" sub in back. I will IB every time I get a chance now. 
- Running the sub higher than ~90% of other people. Comeon guys, use that cone area where you have it. 
- Dayton 10HO ported. I've had other ported boxes that were OK, but this one rocked socks. Played high, played low, tons of free output. 
- 2" Peerless drivers in tennis balls on the dash. Ugly and got me made fun of by everyone I knew, but that was the best sounding and most realistic front-stage I've had to date. Working on building a less-ugly version for my current vehicle. 
- Augmented Wideband For Life - until I start whining about high-volume dynamics, or the Paraline work convinces me to get crazy, I will continue listening to music at Reasonable Listening Levels from the closest thing to point-source I have ever used. 

What didn't work: 
- Tweeters low in the door - never again will I be so crippled by "packaging concerns" 
- tweet or midrange in the the door sail/mirror panel - I have yet to see a result that was not improved my moving the speaker somewhere else. 
- "tweeters really close together" - I built the baffle and roundovers and everything, but could never get it to mate tightly-enough with the dash to make it coherent. Gave up on it after a couple hours of work. Had some promise though, and is the easiest way to package a front-stage, so I might try it more thoroughly at some point.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

94VG30DE said:


> - 2" Peerless drivers in tennis balls on the dash. Ugly and got me made fun of by everyone I knew, but that was the best sounding and most realistic front-stage I've had to date. Working on building a less-ugly version for my current vehicle.











It's funny that this driver came up again. You'll notice it pops up a lot in my projects. I am generally fairly practical about driver selection, and typically just buy the driver with the right set of parameters. But that Peerless is on my short list of maybe four or five drivers that just sound good *no matter what you throw at it.*

For instance, in my current Paraline project I am using the 2" midranges from Gento, the same ones that Bill Waslo is using. And literally *seconds* after I hooked it up, I said to myself "the Peerless sounds better."

I'm really a bit stumped by this. It's not like the Peerless measures all that different. But I could pick it out in a second in an A/B comparison.



My hunch - and this is only a hunch - is that paper coned woofers have some type of breakup which is readily recognizable.


Also, the Aura Whispers sound virtually identical to me. I use the Peerless mostly because the Whispers seem so fragile.









Another driver that I put in that 'will sound good no matter what' category is the Dayton dome midrange, the one that's made by Peerless.


If I'm not mistaken, all three of these drivers are underhung designs, with aluminum cones, so perhaps there's something to that combination that's viable.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Neil_J said:


> What hasn't worked for me:
> - small cars. Seriously  i would buy the biggest vehicle that I could if all I cared about was SQ. It will make so many problems go away. Large enclosures, amp mounting locations, *getting "dry" bass with no standing waves or room modes... *Less reflections, bigger dash, etc.. I could go on


May wanna re-think that.

Especially given the wavelengths we are talking. 

What works for you works, but that's not the reason because a smaller car is LESS susceptible to a "standing wave" or wavefront cancellation in the lower octaves.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

chad said:


> May wanna re-think that.
> 
> Especially given the wavelengths we are talking.
> 
> What works for you works, but that's not the reason because a smaller car is LESS susceptible to a "standing wave" or wavefront cancellation in the lower octaves.


Maybe bad choice of words, I think there can be such a thing as too much cabin gain in small cars. Doesn't sound very natural, not "dry" as myself or others have put it. I'm not a guru or an acoustics engineer, just my $0.02.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Neil_J said:


> Maybe bad choice of words, I think there can be such a thing as too much cabin gain in small cars. Doesn't sound very natural, not "dry" as myself or others have put it. I'm not a guru or an acoustics engineer, just my $0.02.


Totally agree, watching the transient response on mine was /is wild. When I first used SMAART it said my sub was 40 feet away. What was happening is that it was taking around 40mS for the car to "light up" and develop. This could be seen using accelerometers on the body panels.

There's ways around it, not easy, but if you take your time I find that you can get by with using MUCH LESS power than usual. So I find small cars as an advantage... But damn you will play hell with it till you really wrap your brain around it.

That's what makes this thread so damn cool.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

chad said:


> Totally agree, watching the transient response on mine was /is wild. When I first used SMAART it said my sub was 40 feet away. What was happening is that it was taking around 40mS for the car to "light up" and develop. This could be seen using accelerometers on the body panels.


Yep, I would go as far as to say that waterfall plots and other tools to look at spectral decay are currently under-used in the car audio community. There's a hell of a lot of stuff going on with resonances in the car and in the driver(s) that show up there, but not as much in a traditional RTA.. Not just in the sub-bass and bass frequencies, some tweeters ring like crazy well after they're supposed to shut up, on a small time scale.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It's where the cabin gain is occuring in the small cars. The smaller the space, the high in frequency you start to see the gain.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> It's where the cabin gain is occuring in the small cars. The smaller the space, the high in frequency you start to see the gain.


yup, not at a tweeter level, but that's where you start dealing with early reflections in a small cabin where car makers put weird humps to make room for instruments. See: most calculated mistake I ever made  Or something like that.

A small cabin is not a bad thing for SQ hell, I went from a single bench Dakota to a civic hatch, that was a SEA of palette.

BUT you have to understand that you cannot go at it knuckles first..

OTOH, doing SPL... hell yes. I have ONE TEN INCH SUBWOOFER, and some here have heard it, it has 250W hitting it, likely less in it's impedance passband. And it does not **** around.

Conversely, there was a lot of thought behind it.. AND I'm not a SPL guy. 

I'm trying to talk myself into another truck, sell the one I have and the vic possibly. I'm scared... srsly.


Another success story, A false floor sub, close to a boundary, lots of baffle, boundary loading.

I love this thread.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Has worked:
Shallow slopes. They are the reason I don't like steep slopes. They just sound better imo. 

Equal path lengths. Obviously. 

Crossing subs and tweeters high usually with a gap. I hate when people cross subs really low and expect their 6.5" mids to keep up. Just because it says that your 6.5" comp set will respond down to 45hz doesn't mean it'll sound good doing it.

Hasn't worked:
Crossing tweeters low. It took me a long time to realize that [email protected] isn't a magic xo point. I'm sure it's worked for some but never ever ever for me. 

Time alignment and EQ. I do not subscribe to these methods. I look at them as a band aid. There is nothing wrong with a -1 here and there but that's about as much eq as you should need.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Btw, Chad. About once a month I crack up about one of your posts from a while back. I can't remember it exactly but it was something about how your car stages and images well, yet you can't pick up unwed teenage mom's outside of the footlocker.:laugh: That's how I remember it anyway.


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## Mr.M (Apr 15, 2009)

such a cool thread....subscribed


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Spyke said:


> Btw, Chad. About once a month I crack up about one of your posts from a while back. I can't remember it exactly but it was something about how your car stages and images well, yet you can't pick up unwed teenage mom's outside of the footlocker.:laugh: That's how I remember it anyway.


The birthers of fatherless children 

So much win in those vids.


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## ampaholic (May 9, 2010)

What worked for me:

A "center" channel in a (small) Mustang GT, made by combining L&R.

Two 8 inch Phillips woofers IB on the rear deck of an old Buick, loved that sound.

What didn't work:

Trying to get a 635 BMW to sound good at volume - to much glass I think.


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## hilander999 (Jul 6, 2011)

Worked well

Tactile Transducers (bass Shakers) mounted to floor under front seats
6x9 subwoofer/midbass in rear deck ambient fill
L-R RCA patch cable to rear ambient fill amplifier
MLV behind door cards (huge bang for the buck)
Silk dome tweeters at ear level in A-Pillars
Time alignment - individual driver volume controll
Remote level controll for ambient rear fill & bass shakers on drivers seat controll panel

Did Not Work well

Coaxial speakers in rear deck
MLV under factory carpet (No measurable gain)


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

chad said:


> The birthers of fatherless children
> 
> So much win in those vids.


:laugh: That was it.. What vids?


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

hilander999 said:


> Worked well
> 
> Tactile Transducers (bass Shakers) mounted to floor under front seats
> 6x9 subwoofer/midbass in rear deck ambient fill
> ...


When I first glanced at that I started reading what did work backwards. I thought it said ball shakers at first. I wasn't even gonna be judgmental. If he wants a remote level control for his ball shakers then that's his business.:blush:


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## hilander999 (Jul 6, 2011)

Spyke said:


> When I first glanced at that I started reading what did work backwards. I thought it said ball shakers at first. I wasn't even gonna be judgmental. If he wants a remote level control for his ball shakers then that's his business.:blush:


Dude, I just laughed so hard I've got tears running down my face.
Thank you for making my whole day. :laugh:

Technically your not too far off, but take it to the other angle and put a hot chick, sitting in a car seat that vibrates... 
I think you see where I'm going with that one, The hotter the chick the more I turn up the volume.


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

I would like to know the OPs opinion on the qtc of a sealed box. Does it have any significance?


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

I could be wrong (it's been a long time), but I believe Earl Zausmer's enclosures were Aperiodic, not IB.

Thank you so much for this thread. I think this will give me plenty to research, and it certainly makes me excited to try some of the things you have discussed.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Got the article here. They were IB.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

What's worked for me:

9" Midbass in the doors regardless of whether I'm crossing them at 50hz or 70hz. More natural reproduction, less rattles.

Dual 15s IB. 

Ported and bandpass from my previous installs in the same car. Why would anyone go sealed when you can go ported, BP, or IB?

Good passives.

Class D amplification.

High crossover points.

Steep slopes and/or two different crossovers on a channel. For example, subs lowpassed at 70hz/24db and again at 100hz/24db.

3-way with midrange in the kicks IB.


What didn't work for me:

Midbass in the rear deck.

Infinity speakers. 

Certain processors.

Sealed enclosures.

6.5" midbass.

Using vibration damper as a sound barrier when I was a noob.

Nearly everything I tried more than 2 years ago.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

BuickGN said:


> What's worked for me:
> 
> 9" Midbass in the doors regardless of whether I'm crossing them at 50hz or 70hz. More natural reproduction, less rattles.
> 
> ...


I like this one. I'll bet you could have said the same thing 2 years ago and 2 years before that. I am curious about the infinity speakers. Any specifics on that? I ask because i'm using infinity woofers in one of my systems.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

LOL infinity speakers.


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## jamiebosco (Dec 10, 2011)

Spyke said:


> Has worked:
> Shallow slopes. They are the reason I don't like steep slopes. They just sound better imo.


Me too!I prefer the more natural "blending" I get with shallower slopes....that said I also like the reduced distortion that steeper slopes can provide.

May I ask what you consider a shallow slope? I've always considered 6dB/oct & 12dB/oct as shallow and 18dB & 24dB as steep,but with many people running processors allowing 30/36/42/48dB/oct,I probably have to rethink that lol

thanks

jamie


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## robtr8 (Dec 6, 2011)

Not: Listening to a Linn system in one of Overture Audio's listening rooms 15 years ago and thinking I could ever reproduce that experience.

Yup: Turn it down just a little so your ears can experience the dynamic range.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Spyke said:


> I like this one. I'll bet you could have said the same thing 2 years ago and 2 years before that. I am curious about the infinity speakers. Any specifics on that? I ask because i'm using infinity woofers in one of my systems.


Probably. The difference today is I'm using at least a little science learned from this board and have a budget over $500 for the whole system. I've always been good at picking out things I don't like but I'm finally able to put a name to them and attemp to fix them. I've learned that I'm extremely sensitive to phase issues and that my hearing goes to 20khz which is probably why what sounds bright to me is dull to others. The point being with the help of this board and my painfully slow but steady learning process, hopefully I will look back a few years from now and think the current system was pretty good.


Oh, many people seem to love the old infinty subs. I have an old Beta 300 amp that I really like. 1,000+ watts at 4 ohms and one of the first class D amps is pretty cool.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Spyke said:


> If he wants a remote level control for his ball shakers then that's his business.:blush:


Quoted for Awesome.


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

This thread has gotten me inspired to try new settings after getting quite comfortable with my preset. I wanted to get back to 6 dB slopes for the mid/tweeter transition, try crossing my subwoofer higher(I couldn't believe I'd had it at 45 Hz!), and get my midbasses high passed above the 50s. 

equipment run-down: Alpine head unit > PXA-H700 processor > 4-channel amp and monoblock for the sub
2" widebanders on the dash, 6.5" subwoofers in heavily deadened doors, 12" sub in the trunk in a sealed prefab box

I doubled the HPF on the widebanders to 1 kHz and cut the slope in half to 6 dB. I narrowed the bandwidth on the midbasses from ~50-~500 to 80-400. 24 dB HPF and 6 dB LPF. I moved the subwoofer LPF from 45 up to 71 and turned the level to roughly half of where I usually kept it(8 out of 15).

What I remembered from using the 6 dB slopes in the past was a clarity and more natural tone to vocals than I'd ever heard before. I believe I had been using 24 dB slopes prior to that. This time it went from 12 dB to 6 dB, and the change didn't seem so dramatic. However, based on how much I enjoy these new crossover and level settings I think I'm going to leave it this way.

Allowing my subwoofer to do more work so far seems like one of those "Duh! Idiot..." moments when I'd had smaller speakers doing all of the midbass duties. The punch of the kick drums on Pantera's "Cowboys From Hell" album is vicious. Nagging rattles in the rear of the car are keeping me from going higher than 80 Hz for the LPF, for now. I have a plan of attack.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

jamiebosco said:


> Me too!I prefer the more natural "blending" I get with shallower slopes....that said I also like the reduced distortion that steeper slopes can provide.





jamiebosco said:


> May I ask what you consider a shallow slope? I've always considered 6dB/oct & 12dB/oct as shallow and 18dB & 24dB as steep,but with many people running processors allowing 30/36/42/48dB/oct,I probably have to rethink that lol
> 
> thanks
> 
> jamie


6 or 12 would be shallow imo. 24 can seem abrupt to me, I can't imagine a 48.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

trumpet said:


> This thread has gotten me inspired to try new settings after getting quite comfortable with my preset. I wanted to get back to 6 dB slopes for the mid/tweeter transition, try crossing my subwoofer higher(I couldn't believe I'd had it at 45 Hz!), and get my midbasses high passed above the 50s.
> 
> equipment run-down: Alpine head unit > PXA-H700 processor > 4-channel amp and monoblock for the sub
> 2" widebanders on the dash, 6.5" subwoofers in heavily deadened doors, 12" sub in the trunk in a sealed prefab box
> ...


Now you're talking. Take it up to 100hz or use a shallower slope. You'll be amazed at how clean everything "can" get. I've crossed my subs as high as 125 with a 6db slope and loved the sound. The reason everyone crosses low with a steep slope is because they think it will delocalize it. True but it'll stress the hell out of the midbasses and then clarity goes to ****.

Edit: Oh, and fix those rattles. Or turn the sub down a little.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

chad said:


> LOL infinity speakers.


lol indeed


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## GS-R_Autotech (Oct 3, 2011)

Very nice thread.

subscribed


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## dozy_production (Mar 22, 2006)

Patrick Bateman said:


> It's funny that this driver came up again. You'll notice it pops up a lot in my projects. I am generally fairly practical about driver selection, and typically just buy the driver with the right set of parameters. But that Peerless is on my short list of maybe four or five drivers that just sound good *no matter what you throw at it.*


Can you add the peerless model #?


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

dozy_production said:


> Can you add the peerless model #?


I think original model number from the buyout run was 830970, but the replacement should be 830983. Looks like the color of the dust cap changed, and that was about it. 

Original thread on that can be found here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...n/72891-anyone-tried-using-one-tweeter-7.html


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## mitchyz250f (May 14, 2005)

Patrick Bateman said:


> It's funny that this driver came up again. You'll notice it pops up a lot in my projects. I am generally fairly practical about driver selection, and typically just buy the driver with the right set of parameters. But that Peerless is on my short list of maybe four or five drivers that just sound good *no matter what you throw at it.*
> 
> For instance, in my current Paraline project I am using the 2" midranges from Gento, the same ones that Bill Waslo is using. And literally *seconds* after I hooked it up, I said to myself "the Peerless sounds better."
> 
> ...


Patrick, Isn't that the Dayton RS-52 in the pic? I couldn't find any Peerless dome midrange that looked anything like that.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It's a Dayton, but I think he says it is made for them by Peerless.


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## dozy_production (Mar 22, 2006)

94VG30DE said:


> I think original model number from the buyout run was 830970, but the replacement should be 830983. Looks like the color of the dust cap changed, and that was about it.
> 
> Original thread on that can be found here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...n/72891-anyone-tried-using-one-tweeter-7.html


thanks!

Sorry I can't add anything to this conversation that hasn't already been said.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

BuickGN said:


> What's worked for me:
> 
> 9" Midbass in the doors regardless of whether I'm crossing them at 50hz or 70hz. More natural reproduction, less rattles.
> 
> ...


I owe you thanks for your hatred of infinity speakers.(it got me thinking) I actually had two systems with infinity midbasses. I had been struggling with them for a long time trying to tune them. I finally changed them out and bam, amazing improvement. All of the little colorations and annoyances were gone. The funny thing is that I was able to turn the tweeters and subs waayy down. Funny because you were saying how "infinity systems" were nothing but bass and treble. Well I think the reason for that is they are trying to cover up their horrible mids. Thanks again.


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

What has not worked recently:


Using CCF and MLV on the trunk lid to get the outer plastic trim to stop rattling. I was curious to try this for months, and it did require the more traditional method of placing a barrier between the surfaces that were rattling in order to stop the rattling.

What _has_ worked recently:

Adding another ~10 ms delay to the front speakers. I gained the stage depth I'd previously only read about. Amazing.
The CCF and MLV layered on the trunk lid(inside, of course  ) changed the sound of the bass in a way I never expected. It sounds more focused. I haven't confirmed this with any kind of measurements but something definitely changed.


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

Worked for me:
Augmented wideband speakers at dash height or above
Larger midbass drivers in my doors
Higher sensitivity drivers vs. more power
Time alignment
Full active systems
8-inch subs
Ported boxes designed w/WinISD
Down-firing subs
Full-range Class D amps
Zuki watts

Has not worked for me:
HLCD's
Passive crossovers
Auto EQ & T/A
MS-8


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

worked: 
mids and tweeters in the kicks
WAY too much power
2- way active plus sub
24db active crossovers
class D amps
circuit breakers
stealth install
keeping my spare tire.
every speaker with a dedicated amp channel and crossover output

what's NOT:
mids and tweets in the doors
lots of processing to make up for bad speaker locations
not enough sound deadening / solid mounting
poor quality interior trim buzzing
front / rear / center speakers. too much going on, relying too heavily on processing. simply works!!
low power amps
not having each speaker on it's own amp channel and crossover output

a simple system with choice speaker locations and a lot of power is the way to go for me. branding is much less important than a solid install, understanding basic physics and math and acoustics, and good planning.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

mitchyz250f said:


> Patrick, Isn't that the Dayton RS-52 in the pic? I couldn't find any Peerless dome midrange that looked anything like that.


Both the silver and the black midrange are made by companies named Peerless. But one is in India, one is in Denmark, and they're different companies  (Peerless in Denmark is owned by Tymphany iirc)


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Worked:

► Swallow slopes on tweets, using first order filters crossed high (6,3-8kHz)
► EQ by separating crossovers
► Fullrange speakers as midrange, crossovers tend to work as intended when an early rolloff is out of the question.
► 3" Midranges in kick panels
► Open cell foam under the dash (directly above your feet), tend to widen stage, at least with the midranges down there.
► Tweeters in sail panels ONAXIS
► Sealed (moderate to big for subwoofers), vented (tuned below 34Hz), single ported bandpass and IB!
► 5.25" and 6.5" midbass in really small enclosures (Patrick's idea...)
► Standalone DSPs (love parametric EQs, I believe L-R EQ is more important than T/A to get right. I'm not against using adequate amounts of EQ)
► Massive aluminum shielding on signal cables for noise rejection.
► Class D amps
► Capacitor directly on alternator output (that actually worked awesome lol)

Didn't work out very good:

► Too small sealed enclosures for subwoofers
► Midbass openair in doors (omg... the rattles)
► A-pillar mounting (narrowed stage, less depth, however better height)
► Using a 12F capacitor (long ago... only good it did was to drain my battery lol, most useless piece of crap I ever put in a car)
► Dual sub amps for dual subs... I still feel sorry for my alternator. Funny thing is that sub-bass improved once I removed one sub and amp. This was completely redundant to use in my system.
► Speakers firing against windshield... Never again.
► Measuring time data, failed like 15 attempts, then I did it by ear in 30min. However you can measure the effect it has on FR, but that's another story.
► Audiophile crap like expensive RCA, speaker wires and stuff. Complete BS imho, even in home audio. Hear no difference at all.
► Filling my iPod touch with lossless... Need like 300GB or so, mp3 works just as good after some listening, at least 256k+ with modern encoders.
► Installing a fuse where you can't replace it without removing half the trunk install... Actually managed to do this in my last build.
► High Q midwoofers in small sealed enclosures... nasty.
► Connecting GND to remote input, the amp did not like that, neither did I. After that one I'm not installing anything without adequate lighting.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

This thread is proving that there is no way anyone can give advice on someone elses system.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Spyke said:


> This thread is proving that there is no way anyone can give advice on someone elses system.


Lol. Someone should keep a tally of what worked and what didn't work and see how many of the same items are in the work and didn't work list.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

BuickGN said:


> Lol. Someone should keep a tally of what worked and what didn't work and see how many of the same items are in the work and didn't work list.


Looks like you just volunteered.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

Hanatsu said:


> Worked:
> 
> ► Swallow slopes on tweets, using first order filters crossed high (6,3-8kHz)


Curious. What points and slopes do you use on your midbass when crossing this high? Unless you are talking about a 3way. I usually end up crossed high and and shallow and think it sounds better than steep and low.


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

Hanatsu said:


> Worked:
> 
> ► Capacitor directly on alternator output (that actually worked awesome lol)


I looked into doing that to my own car after reading about that on this site. I only tried to fit one particular capacitor, but it's too big to go anywhere that radiant heat won't kill it. How did you install yours?

....just got an idea, I could probably put the cap within 12" of the alternator if I mounted the cap on the interior side of the firewall.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Spyke said:


> Curious. What points and slopes do you use on your midbass when crossing this high? Unless you are talking about a 3way. I usually end up crossed high and and shallow and think it sounds better than steep and low.


I'm using 3-way front. It definitively sound better than 12/18/24dB slopes at any frequency. The Peerless HDS can handle frequencies down to 1,6kHz good, so that's not the issue. Tweeter is in sail panel, midrange in kick panels. 

Tweeters: 7kHz/6dB Bessel HP
Midrange: 3,15kHz/6dB Bessel LP - 315Hz/12dB Bessel HP


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

trumpet said:


> I looked into doing that to my own car after reading about that on this site. I only tried to fit one particular capacitor, but it's too big to go anywhere that radiant heat won't kill it. How did you install yours?
> 
> ....just got an idea, I could probably put the cap within 12" of the alternator if I mounted the cap on the interior side of the firewall.


I built my own with 20x low ESR 50V 470uF caps in parallel (think I used a few MKP 100nF caps aswell). Sealed them in a plastic box directly below the alternator. Used a 4ga cable, around 5" long. Grounded both to engine and to chassis with 4ga.


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## bigguy2010 (May 18, 2010)

Probably the best thread I've come across in a while! 

What worked for me:

- Project/vehicle specific enclosures. I get mine through PWK, I've never got into designing just building them. I've had several from Pete and they've all been nothing short of outstanding. Just incredible how much output/intensity comes from so little power with a single driver sub stage. 

-Crimping ring terminals with Lineman's pliers and a clamp. Works great and I prefer it over the swedge-on tool I have. 

-Running +12V and ground front to back. It's cheap and easy to do. Some say the vehicle has more current carrying capacity then wire, which may be true. I'm talking about eliminating any possibility for a bad ground. This ensures you'll never have to worry about spot-welded sheet metal supporting your system. 

Don't have much that doesn't work, that I already haven't seen.


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

*Bump for a good thread!*

D.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Hanatsu said:


> <snip>
> 
> Didn't work out very good:
> 
> ► Filling my iPod touch with lossless... Need like 300GB or so, mp3 works just as good after some listening, at least 256k+ with modern encoders.


I am in the same boat, I generally can't hear much of a difference between compressed audio and FLAC. Maybe a little bit of a 'hardening' of the sound, but compressed audio is definitely 'listenable' in my book.

But I had something odd happen this weekend. I set up my Gedlee Summas outside, as I'm using them as the PA system at my wedding next week. And while listening to music, I could hear a TON of artifacts in the recording that I'd never noticed.

I didn't have uncompressed audio to compare it to. So it's possible that the artifacts were there in the original recording. But it *definitely* sounded like what you hear when you use low bitrate compression... But these files were all at 250k+ bitrates.


Here's my hypothesis:

MPEG compression works by finding similarities between frames. This is why JPEG compression has a hard time with things like black lines on a white background, and with video that moves fast. The algorithms work best on frames that are similar; if the frames change too fast you run out of bits.

So my hunch is that listening outside, away from any reflective surfaces, highlighted the compression. That the reflections in a room or in a car obscure what mpeg compression is throwing out.

It's also an interesting endorsement for dipoles and cardioids. I'd always noticed that they imaged better than sealed boxes, but never considered that they might be more revealing (because they interact with the room less.)


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Patrick Bateman said:


> But I had something odd happen this weekend. I set up my Gedlee Summas outside, as I'm using them as the PA system at my wedding next week.


Sweet setup for a great day, congrats. It's nice to be able to just reach over and have great hardware to use. When I reached in my pocket for my big day, all that came out was a pair of powered JBL PA speakers and a Mackie 12-channel


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

Mpeg codec is exploiting the masking effect. It might be as you say, "less mess" and the distortion is revealed. I've actually never listened to mp3s on a PA system outside. The recording (DR) is more important than the losdy compression imo... generally speaking. IME, everything above 256kBit/s is equivalent to CD quality if the ripping is done correctly. 

I bought a pair of new headphones a few days back... AKG Q701. Did the same test again but I still failed ABX test in foobar2000 between 256k mp3 and flac. Seems like I'm not very sensitive to those artifacts. My hearing is good to about 16,5-17kHz though. On the other hand, non-linear distortion in subwoofer frequencies are very audible to me (which are supposed to have low audibility according to the "masses"). Then again... I'm weird.

Tapaaatalk!!


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