# JL W7s still considered a SQL sub?



## SPAZ (Jan 7, 2009)

I remember when the W7's first came out people were hyping them to be the ultimate sub. Best SQ and SPL all in one package. Now I'm getting ready to build my sound system and I'm getting the idea that the W7's are no longer considered SQ subs? I'm not overly concerned about SPL I just want really good SQ from my subs. Which subs are considered the top SQ subs now? Back in the day it was Alchemy, Perfects, W7's, and IDQ's. As of right now I'm leaning towards putting an 12" IDQ v3.


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## capnxtreme (Feb 5, 2008)

It's certainly more sophisticated than an IDQ.

Just expensive.


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

It is a badass sub, there's no denying that. I find it a little bloated to listen to, but EQ and listening preference can fix that. I'd recommend you just build the box to the RIGHT spec for the sub to get about .7 Qtc, not just what JL says. They tend to build the box to handle higher power handling, which would be a smaller, less ideal box for a flat response.

EQ can fix a peak or valley in the response pretty well, and as long as you are sending it clean power and it is in a well-built box, I can't see a problem w/ using it.


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

I would take a look at the W6 or the FI audio FI.Q


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## ealvar (Mar 9, 2007)

SPAZ said:


> I remember when the W7's first came out people were hyping them to be the ultimate sub. Best SQ and SPL all in one package. Now I'm getting ready to build my sound system and I'm getting the idea that the W7's are no longer considered SQ subs? I'm not overly concerned about SPL I just want really good SQ from my subs. Which subs are considered the top SQ subs now? Back in the day it was Alchemy, Perfects, W7's, and IDQ's. As of right now I'm leaning towards putting an 12" IDQ v3.


The W7 is a really pretty sub. Also really expensive.

There are a number of smaller sub manufacturers that make fantastic SQ subs that often get missed when people are putting together lists of 'good subs'.

Take a look at some of the Fi subs. The great thing about these guys is that there are numerous build options available when you order one. You won't find a more customizable sub than Fi. Depending on your needs you can choose different coil, cooling, heat sink, pole, chamfer, and leadwire options.

The Fi car audio people are very active in the SSA forums.

Some other brands to be considered are Stereo Integrity, Sound Splinter, Elemental Designs, Incriminator....

If you're looking to spend the most buck for your bang, then the JL W7 is a great way to go. If you want the most bang for your buck I truly believe there are better options than the JL.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Acoustic Elegance AV series


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Why not go Loud -n- Proud with Digital Designs ?


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## shadowfactory (Oct 20, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> Why not go Loud -n- Proud with Digital Designs ?


x2

DD get overlooked a lot in the SQ realm.

Also the JBL wgti is a great sub.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Out of all the Cars I've seen in Los Angeles not one of them had a W7 in it; I seem to be the only one. There's just too many cheaper Subs that sound really good.


BTW

I bought mine before I got to DIYMA


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

Listening to Michaelsil1's car, you'd never guess there was a monster in his trunk. His W7 set-up is the only one I've heard that resists going stupid happy with the output.


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## Mr Marv (Aug 19, 2005)

I always scored very well in sub bass competing in IASCA with a single 10W7 and I also typically hit around 130 dbs _with my SQ setting_ since I would always forget to change it before the SPL judge came by :blush: (I'm sure it was capable of much more). The interesting thing is people would not believe it was a W7 until I showed them and they always commented "I thought the W7 was just an SPL sub"


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## m3gunner (Aug 6, 2008)

Hey Marv, how much power were you running to your sub?


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

Mr Marv said:


> I always scored very well in sub bass competing in IASCA with a single 10W7 and I also typically hit around 130 dbs _with my SQ setting_ since I would always forget to change it before the SPL judge came by :blush: (I'm sure it was capable of much more). The interesting thing is people would not believe it was a W7 until I showed them and they always commented "I thought the W7 was just an SPL sub"


Who said Tiger's couldn't *Purr*.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

shadowfactory said:


> x2
> 
> DD get overlooked a lot in the SQ realm.
> 
> Also the JBL wgti is a great sub.


X3 - DD subwoofers sound pretty good when you don't tune them so damn high!


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## GSlider (Jun 11, 2009)

The JL W7 is a nice sub. But, I have to agree with everyone there are far superior subs out there that offer better performance and sound for alot less money. DD, Fi, AE, SSA, SoundSplinter, AQ, Treo. There are several brands worth looking at over JL.


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## Mr Marv (Aug 19, 2005)

m3gunner said:


> Hey Marv, how much power were you running to your sub?


About 750 watts



GSlider said:


> The JL W7 is a nice sub. But, I have to agree with everyone there are far superior subs out there that offer better performance and sound for alot less money. DD, Fi, AE, SSA, SoundSplinter, AQ, Treo. There are several brands worth looking at over JL.


 What testing criteria did you use to determine this?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Considering one of the most renown mastering engineers recommends these under your monitors.... JL Audio: Products

I'd say that they are gonna be around for a while.


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## GSlider (Jun 11, 2009)

Mr Marv said:


> About 750 watts
> 
> 
> 
> What testing criteria did you use to determine this?


Its a personal opinion Marv. JL is like RF. They got to big to quick and forgot alot about the quality of the product for quanity. People are so quick to jump on the JL bandwagon because of the name. My point is there are so many other "not so popular" companies that make a better driver for equal or less money. Thats all.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

No matter how you put it the W7 is an impressive driver. At one time I had 2 13w7s on the drawing board but it fell though due to lack of funding. I think regardless of price these are very appealing, from the mounting mechanism to the bottomless design. 

BTW subs greater than 13 inches are feasible and perfectly ok, I have busted that myth for myself. I think their marketing department is on crack but otherwise very nice.


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## bass_lover1 (Dec 10, 2005)

GSlider said:


> The JL W7 is a nice sub. But, I have to agree with everyone there are far superior subs out there that offer better performance and sound for alot less money. DD, Fi, AE, SSA, SoundSplinter, AQ, Treo. There are several brands worth looking at over JL.


Superior? How so? Out of what you listed, the AE to me is the only one that has a decent motor, but for the most part your entire list is made up of generic overhung motors, with nothing special to lower inductance or to keep the motor linear over it's operating range, which means they're probably all going to sound very similar.

I always laugh to my self when the w7 comes up and people say there is something so much better out there, yet their reasoning is based on price alone. If the 12w7 was readily available for 300 bucks brand new with full warranty from JL, you'd definitely be singing a different tune.

Are they expensive? Yep, but that's not why I don't use them. For me, they don't work with my amp, and they don't work in the space I want, so I opt for something different.


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## enerlevel (Jun 6, 2009)

had a 13w7 sub in a 4.4cubic foot box (external) tuned to about 30hz. powered by 1100rms. i must say , its pretty loud , plus maintains its SQ aswell. can give almost all types of bass. loudness wise , i would rank it head to head with a 15" old school stroker. but quality wise and being able to produce all bass notes , i would says Jl13w7 hands down.


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

GSlider said:


> Its a personal opinion Marv. JL is like RF. They got to big to quick and forgot alot about the quality of the product for quanity. People are so quick to jump on the JL bandwagon because of the name. My point is there are so many other "not so popular" companies that make a better driver for equal or less money. Thats all.


Our focus on quality has never wavered. Our focus on product design has never wavered, either. That's why we the W7 is going into its eighth year of production, essentially unchanged, and is still a state-of-the-art product that is capable of the highest levels of performance for those who seek quality of bass and quantity of bass.

Every W7 is made in our factory in Florida, and I doubt you can find a subwoofer built under tighter quality procedures anywhere in the world. You can see a gallery of our production facility here:
Subwoofer Driver Production - Miramar, FL USA

Everyone likes to say there are better products out there, but there is rarely anything backing those statements up other than assertions and opinion. Anyone who is in the Fort Lauderdale is welcome to call us and we'll be happy to arrange a tour (during business hours), so you can see how our products are built.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.


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## enerlevel (Jun 6, 2009)

> That's why we the W7 is going into its eighth year of production, essentially unchanged,



if the product is unchanged then how come the 13w7 was 1000rms and now its 1500rms.... and the 12w7 was 750 now its 1000 .........


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

because lots of other companies have come out with higher power handling subs, and the marketing people have to keep up with the joneses.


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## enerlevel (Jun 6, 2009)

so u mean 13w7 is still a 1000rms sub which is now advertised as 1500rms? 
mayb thts y jl just has 1000/1 and not 1500/1  . Still 13w7 is one of the best subs i have heard so far.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

msmith said:


> Our focus on quality has never wavered. Our focus on product design has never wavered, either. That's why we the W7 is going into its eighth year of production, essentially unchanged, and is still a state-of-the-art product that is capable of the highest levels of performance for those who seek quality of bass and quantity of bass.
> 
> Every W7 is made in our factory in Florida, and I doubt you can find a subwoofer built under tighter quality procedures anywhere in the world. You can see a gallery of our production facility here:
> Subwoofer Driver Production - Miramar, FL USA
> ...


These guys would beg to differ Manville:

http://www.orioncaraudio.com/Promos/HCCA_Challenge_Results.aspx

Comedy at it's finest.


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## Eiswritsat (Nov 19, 2008)

GSlider said:


> Its a personal opinion Marv. JL is like RF. They got to big to quick and forgot alot about the quality of the product for quanity. People are so quick to jump on the JL bandwagon because of the name. My point is there are so many other "not so popular" companies that make a better driver for equal or less money. Thats all.


How has the quality changed? Have you taken apart and compared a newer built w7 to a older w7? Since were talking about bandwagon we sure do seem to have more jl bandwagon bashers and the " Internet boner subs" wagon riders then jl which is funny to me. The sub has been unchanged for damn near 8+ years. It didn't need a quad stacked magnet, 8 guage inputs and huge oversized basket and a 100,000 watts rme power handling claim to gy the Internet kiddies talking. If jl's quality sucked they would have gone the way of the t-rex. How many companies that were out when jl entered are still in business???? How many of the " Internet boner subs" companies will still be in business in 5 years???? Quality talks everything else is B.s


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

chad said:


> Considering one of the most renown mastering engineers recommends these under your monitors.... JL Audio: Products
> 
> I'd say that they are gonna be around for a while.


Every time a person bad mouths a W7 Chad whips out this *BAD BOY*


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## pikers (Oct 21, 2007)

You're asking if the W7 is a capable driver. Of course, the enclosure, power supplied to the driver, and the appropriateness in the chosen vehicle all decide whether it's going to perform well. In that regard, if executed well, the W7 is a great high-end driver.



GSlider said:


> Its a personal opinion Marv. JL is like RF. They got to big to quick and forgot alot about the quality of the product for quanity.


This is an assumption, typically proffered by owners of shops that sell against it. Also, I'm not sure where this stuff against a Rockford comes from. I suspect it's a mixture of their affiliation with Lightning Audio and nostalgia. They still make good stuff, despite their presence in store that typically sell garb.



> People are so quick to jump on the JL bandwagon because of the name. My point is there are so many other "not so popular" companies that make a better driver for equal or less money. Thats all.


Execution matters, for sure. But I would hesitate to discount a manufacturer simply because it's popular.


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## haakono (Apr 5, 2009)

enerlevel said:


> if the product is unchanged then how come the 13w7 was 1000rms and now its 1500rms.... and the 12w7 was 750 now its 1000 .........


This does not necessarily mean that the product is changed even if the producer has upped its rated power handlling. It may just have been underrated from the start and now its rated at its actual power handling. Or it may have been for instance a 2000w sub from the start, and still its underrated from its true power handling. If this applies to this specific product is unsure, but it might be the case. I for one bought a 10w7 when they first came out (2002) hooked up to a 1200w rms monoblock, never had any issues with power handling (or anything else for that matter).


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

bassfromspace said:


> These guys would beg to differ Manville:
> 
> ORION - ORION Sub Challenge Test Results
> 
> Comedy at it's finest.


Yeah, comedy in that at an 84db sensitivity, you're going to need nearly 2/3rds more the watts to get the same base output as compared to 86db from the JL W7. Not only that, but this test is not evaluating the quality of output at the optimum wattage input for both. This was a poor face-off presentation.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

tspence73 said:


> Yeah, comedy in that at an 84db sensitivity, you're going to need nearly 2/3rds more the watts to get the same base output as compared to 86db from the JL W7. Not only that, but this test is not evaluating the quality of output at the optimum wattage input for both. This was a poor face-off presentation.


I did note that 3 of the subs had 1/2 the power ratings, but remember the test wasnt about how it sounded, simply a "how much power can it take" thing.

They didnt even meter them to see what was loudest. I would have loved to see a sub using half the power metering higher...:laugh: but thats probably why they didnt do it.


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

A brick handles a lot of power, too. That doesn't make it a good woofer.

As for why the rating changed... it changed on all our subs a couple of years ago. We got tired of hearing from dealers that consumers thought our subwoofers didn't handle much power because of our conservative power ratings. So, we made the ratings higher to get closer to what other mfr's were doing. That's all.


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## iyamwutiam (Nov 20, 2006)

I have used the 13 w7 extensively for 2 years -very nice sub. I find it a bit boomy. I am presently using the Utopia 15. Personally thew best sub -I used was the 15 Phase Linear Aliante- which I now have HUGE seller's remorse.


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## SPAZ (Jan 7, 2009)

Keep in mind that I already have 2 10w7s. I guess the main reason I'm looking to switch them out to the new car is because I'm looking to minimize the subs from 2 to 1 12" in the cabin. So I'm basically looking for a kick ass sq sub to do that with. Of course if I can't do that I will probably stick with the 10w7s and put them in the truck. The only drawback is the amount of power necessary for these beasts. I had a us amps 2000x bridged at 6ohm and frankly it didn't get as loud as I expected. So a new amp for subs is in order either way I suppose.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

msmith said:


> A brick handles a lot of power, too. That doesn't make it a good woofer.


LMAO! :laugh:


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

GSlider said:


> Its a personal opinion Marv. JL is like RF. They got to big to quick and forgot alot about the quality of the product for quanity. People are so quick to jump on the JL bandwagon because of the name. My point is there are so many other "not so popular" companies that make a better *driver for equal or less money*. Thats all.


{ cheap ass ****  }

List just ONE  with a new patent {let alone this many for a sub  }
Quote>
W7 Subwoofer Drivers
The W7 embodies JL Audio’s commitment to pushing the envelope of speaker technology, with six patented technologies and a completely unique set of component parts.

(U.S. Patent #6,496,590)
(U.S. Patent #5,687,247 and #5,949,898)
(U.S. Patent #6,219,431, #6,229,902)
(U.S. Patent #6,243,479)
(U.S. Patent #6,501,844)
(U.S. Patent #6,118,884)


About JL Audio
Headquartered in Miramar, Florida, JL Audio has been manufacturing award-winning, aftermarket auto sound components since the* late 1980s.*

Where the hell do they get off...with over 30 yrs under their belt


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

michaelsil1 said:


> Every time a person bad mouths a W7 Chad whips out this *BAD BOY*



I'll admit, I was leery at first, but DAMN they do a great job! I still need to get pics up of that room. We have 2 of those run in stereo.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

msmith said:


> *A brick handles a lot of power, too. That doesn't make it a good woofer.*
> As for why the rating changed... it changed on all our subs a couple of years ago. We got tired of hearing from dealers that consumers thought our subwoofers didn't handle much power because of our conservative power ratings. So, we made the ratings higher to get closer to what other mfr's were doing. That's all.


Bingo.

Power ratings dont mean so much any way. Sensitivity is a much better number to go by. I like the W7's but havent gone with one yet personally just based on the price. I think I'd be bewteen a W7 and a JBL wGTi. Both excellent subs.


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## tgnylu (Aug 28, 2009)

bass_lover1 said:


> I always laugh to my self when the w7 comes up and people say there is something so much better out there, yet their reasoning is based on price alone.


This is the exact reasoning used by the local car audio shop. Come to find out after-the-fact that the owner of the company had a falling out with the JL Audio rep for our area.

Wouldn't it be nice to get advice from a sales rep that had no bias what-so-ever?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I wanna spend some time with a Gotham... or two.


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## PPI-ART (Mar 1, 2009)

I have spent some time with the JL Audio Gotham and let me tell you I about S--t myself when I heard It. It is by far, IMO the most unreal thing one can experience in Life. Its truely addicting. I thru some old school Bass Mekankik at it in about a 20x20 room and unleashed the raines on it and let me say this. I have been in the industry for over 18 years and have heard some pretty impressive subs in my day. But holy s--t the sound Q was next to none.And I have never heard a sub play so clear and smooth as the Gotham did. And as far as output. Its over shut the lights out folks Elvis has left the building. In a 20x20 room I could barley catch my breath. My inside felt like they were coming apart. now say what you will about being on the JL bandwagon but IMO as far as The Gotham G213 is concerned all others are fighting for 2nd Place.

As for the W7 car version I have done extensive testing for SQ regarding the 12w7. And what I found was, the sub as far as being one of the most linear out of all the big SPL drivers, it is right at the top in regards to Quality of the driver, compnents used etc. The W7 nomatter what sub you place next to it it will hold its own all day long. But the most interesting thing that i found was in regards to SQ was the Amplifier and the power range the sub was run at. I wont get into all the tech stuff but some amps at 1000 watts vs other amps at 1000 watts the sub sounded completly diff to me in the same enclosre same vehicle. The stuff dreams are made of, for me was when I hooked the 2 12w7 I am running to 2 Oldschool Lanzar OptiDrive 2500 bridged at 3ohm mono. Those subs came to life like I have never heard before as far as SQ is concerned. I currently am Running them both off A PPI A1200.2

the point being if you are going to drop the jing for a W7. Make sure you drop the jing for a good amp aswell or you probably wont be happy. todays amps are built for bruit power and thats it. there are alot of other specs on Amps that get overlooked just cause it says 2000 watts on the box.

extra note the W7 souded better on most of the Class A/B amps I ran them on. even better than the JL 1000/1 class D that JL recommends.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

What is SQL? Are you planning on competing in MECA's *S*ound *Q*uality *L*eague?


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## audiodepot101 (Jul 14, 2009)

I had a JLW7 until I seen two of them get smoke by one DD9512 which is a SQL sub, not bashing on JL that was my sub of choice even back in the early 90"s But those DD's are unreal and very clean sounding sub.


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## chadillac3 (Feb 3, 2006)

By smoked I'm assuming you must mean some sort of SPL competition, or a couple ground pounders doing there thing at the very least? Not exactly the means by which most of us on here evaluate a sub.

Edit: I still consider the W7's one of my favorite subs of all times...I found the W6v2 easier to integrate, but man the Dub Sevens are fun.


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## audiodepot101 (Jul 14, 2009)

I have had a lot of subs including Morel ultimo, Jl, Fi, focal, Jbl, and I just love the DD, not only does it sound awesome at the hz that a sub plays at, and we must remember there is very little musical information inforamtion below 60hz. So what I look for in a sub is for it to be deep and tight, I can pound if i want or I can jazz it up to a smooth roll off. this is what I get from a DDsub and a PKW design box. Its unreal, but thats my set-up. deep tight bass played high or low is not for everyone.
Peter W. Kulicki Designs


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## jbowers (May 3, 2009)

The competitors to my old shop loved to **** on JL - one in particular because JL pulled out of their store after they found them reselling to an internet dealer as well as selling ABOVE list price. Kids would come in with the same ******** stories about the W7 until I took em into the sound room and played the 12W7 in the spec box off a 1000/1. In an open sound room and without the benefit of the cabin gain of a car no one left there with their jaw not dragging the floor. Every one we sold brought dozens of word of mouth customers. Expensive? Yes. Worth it? If you have the power and the room for it it's worth every penny. Of course anyone would be happy with a couple of mid-range 12s with a properly designed box and decent power, but for a mainstream, readily available sub there's nothing really like it. My personal preference was the W6V2s, but when someone came in with a boner for huge bass and had the room there was nothing I'd recommend over the W7.


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## exist2serve (Jun 29, 2009)

I'm using a 10W7 in a sealed box, I find it very versatile. It is ever so slightly too boomy for my taste, but it is an extremely impressive woofer. It's probably the only thing in my system that won't get replaced until it dies.


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## divvide (Apr 4, 2009)

^^^yes jl is the leader when it comes to the commercial world. And they have the products to back it up... all comes down to is how much space and money you are willing to sacrifice. I found a 12w7 on ebay for $300 used. Sold it to some guy i know, and i gotta tell you this, SQL is the name of this sub.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I've been competing (IASCA SQC) with the 12W7 and I usually get hit for the Sub being too low; lately I'm getting hit for too much Bass. I'll find the compromise; dialing it in is a little hard it either wants to purr or roar.


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## ashlar (Dec 4, 2008)

If the W7 sub is so BAD then these guys most not know what they are talking about:

JL Audio 10W7-3 car audio woofer - Car Audio and Electronics Magazine


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## ashlar (Dec 4, 2008)

Here is another expert opinion of this so terrible sub. I couldn't find the actual copy of the review in pdf so I could post it as an attachment. Nevertheless, here goes:

"i'll comment-----the thing was incredible-------i have never been impressed with subs that absorb power------its only when they actually do something with the power that i am impressed-----it is a simple engineering feat to design a speaker that can handle "jillions" of watts-----but to actually have it respond and convert a large percentage of those electrical watts into acoustic watts is not so easy-------and converting those watts into "undistorted output" is a real feat--------and notice at what power level the speaker could produce undistorted output-----thats not a time function------simply the best woofer i've ever seen ( meaning measured) or heard-----i'm not personally fond of the mounting scheme since it entails a lot of extra effort but i guess it has it's usefulness in tight installs..........RC"
__________________
A2000Rich 


Terrible sub, just terrible.


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## ashlar (Dec 4, 2008)

^^^He was referring to the 13W7. I think he fed it something like 25,000 watts of power from his Crown Macro Tech amps, and it survived.

If anyone out there has the actual Carsound magazine test please send it to me as it seems like I have misplaced it.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

I would take 6 of these anyday over a gotham, casue thats how may I could get for the price of 1 gotham
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_138&products_id=891

I am not a huge fan of the w7 myself, I am not gonna say it isnt a great woofer, cause it is, but I always thought it was bloated and un-natural myself, not to my licking


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

ashlar said:


> ^^^He was referring to the 13W7. I think he fed it something like 25,000 watts of power from his Crown Macro Tech amps, and it survived.
> 
> If anyone out there has the actual Carsound magazine test please send it to me as it seems like I have misplaced it.


They wouldnt handle 25000 watts


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

BeatsDownLow said:


> They wouldnt handle 25000 watts


He actually ran something like 48k watts to it. And the amps he used were one-off's based on hospital equipment.

And he didn't blow it.

I think the Brahma handled 25k.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

ashlar said:


> ^^^He was referring to the 13W7. I think he fed it something like 25,000 watts of power from his Crown Macro Tech amps, and it survived.
> 
> If anyone out there has the actual Carsound magazine test please send it to me as it seems like I have misplaced it.


The test was unofficial. It was something RC did just out of curiosity and for the carsound crowd.


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## ashlar (Dec 4, 2008)

bassfromspace said:


> He actually ran something like 48k watts to it. And the amps he used were one-off's based on hospital equipment.
> 
> And he didn't blow it.
> 
> I think the Brahma handled 25k.



The review I was actually referring to was a 13W7 ONLY review that got published in the Carsound mag.

You are correct with what you said above. That review was a comparison review between done outside of Carsound magazine and was mentioned on the website. This did not get published in the magazine as the magazine has never done head-to-head comparison.

The amps he used were the Crown Macro Tech, originally designed by Crown for the hospital environment.


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## ashlar (Dec 4, 2008)

Found it. I had it saved on the desktop, instead. It is in pdf format.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

jbowers said:


> The competitors to my old shop loved to **** on JL - one in particular because JL pulled out of their store after they found them reselling to an internet dealer as well as selling ABOVE list price.


There's nothing in the dealer agreement that says you can't sell above list. The dealer dealer agreement just says you can't _advertise_ below M.A.P. It's still a free economy and a dealer is free to sell for whatever he'd like. You work or worked at a dealer, you should know this.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

quality_sound said:


> There's nothing in the dealer agreement that says you can't sell above list. The dealer dealer agreement just says you can't _advertise_ below M.A.P. It's still a free economy and a dealer is free to sell for whatever he'd like. You work or worked at a dealer, you should know this.


If that was the case, this local shop would have been out of business a long time ago. They started marking their merchandise above MSRP years ago, then kept it there when the "0% Interest Free Financing" came into play years ago. 

Also, their first negotiation when a customer balks at the price is to come back down to MSRP if paying by cash, check, or debit card. One can get them down to MAP if one haggles enough, but it is extremely rare that they will go down to MAP or sell below MAP unless they are clearing out merchandise.

Finally, the last time I went to this retailer was just over a year ago and they were complaining that the internet was kicking their ass. Hmm, wonder why?


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## jbowers (May 3, 2009)

quality_sound said:


> There's nothing in the dealer agreement that says you can't sell above list. The dealer dealer agreement just says you can't _advertise_ below M.A.P. It's still a free economy and a dealer is free to sell for whatever he'd like. You work or worked at a dealer, you should know this.


No denying that, it's just one of the points that were mentioned when the JL rep told us what went down. Whether or not it's allowed I saw it as an intentional rip-off and a big "**** you" to the customer. When someone put enough trust in me to hand over $3000 and up to design a system for them I felt a responsibility to treat them fairly and not just take them for everything they were worth. Our installs were expensive and we still kept a full install schedule - because people knew they were going to get quality. I just feel that if you do right by the customer and give them a quality product you will make more money than by trying to be shady. 



06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> If that was the case, this local shop would have been out of business a long time ago. They started marking their merchandise above MSRP years ago, then kept it there when the "0% Interest Free Financing" came into play years ago.
> 
> Also, their first negotiation when a customer balks at the price is to come back down to MSRP if paying by cash, check, or debit card. One can get them down to MAP if one haggles enough, but it is extremely rare that they will go down to MAP or sell below MAP unless they are clearing out merchandise.
> 
> Finally, the last time I went to this retailer was just over a year ago and they were complaining that the internet was kicking their ass. Hmm, wonder why?


The only way to fight internet pricing is by giving people something they can't get online - an excellent install and support after you take the money. The retail game has changed, but you can't buy a direct one on one experience with someone who knows how to make that gear work from fleabay. If I couldn't sell gear I'd take the install - make the kid happy and he'd come back next time when he's ready to do something crazy. It's all in what you do.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

IMO JL has never made a SQ product.

JL sells a 'well made' product that is 'good enough' for most consumers ...but that doesn't make it a SQ product.

>^..^<


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## jbowers (May 3, 2009)

Catman said:


> IMO JL has never made a SQ product.
> 
> JL sells a 'well made' product that is 'good enough' for most consumers ...but that doesn't make it a SQ product.
> 
> >^..^<


Compared to DIY gear that is purpose built specifically for SQ you are dead on. Compared to mass-market I'd say they're one of the few companies that's making an effort. Out of the mass market stuff that's out there, I'd consider the W6V2, the W7, the IDMax and the WGTi as very good sounding mass market subs, but compromised for marketing reasons - namely being a better sub than most but still capable of satisfying the logo whores and bass heads. 

The W7 wasn't engineered to be a SQ sub, but it's the best sounding thing I've ever heard that gets that ungodly loud.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

So a sub with low distortion, lots of travel, lots of power handling, and enough motor and suspension to control the cone at any output level is NOT an SQ sub?


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## jbowers (May 3, 2009)

quality_sound said:


> So a sub with low distortion, lots of travel, lots of power handling, and enough motor and suspension to control the cone at any output level is NOT an SQ sub?


I think the definition of SQ here is quite a bit different than the real world, and in my eyes the W7 IS an SQ sub...but it's absolute overkill by the "DIYMA" definition. If I had the room, power and money to run it, and didn't mind the weight penalty I'd do it - although I prefer the W6V2. However, if I can get similar output and SQ with two cheaper, lighter subs and I'm going that route. As much as I'd love a $375,000 Lamborghini, I could buy a Nissan GT-R for $80,000 and have money left over to blow on tires and the multiple clutches and sets of brakes I'd be sure to smoke. Would I rather have the Lambo? Undoubtedly, yes. The GT-R would still make me grin like a fat kid eating pudding.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

jbowers said:


> I think the definition of SQ here is quite a bit different than the real world, and in my eyes the W7 IS an SQ sub...but it's absolute overkill by the "DIYMA" definition.


Actually, I'm saying that in the 'money is no object' (serious SQ) catagory JL does not make SQ products ...they are kinda like the "Chevrolet" of the audio world ...they function adequately for the masses ...but don't come close when compared to 'high end' options ...and many 'mid-fi' options. JL makes a good product ...IMO it is overpriced ....but I'm not saying that it is bad ...it is just not SQ.

>^..^<


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## tgnylu (Aug 28, 2009)

GSlider said:


> The JL W7 is a nice sub. But, I have to agree with everyone there are far superior subs out there that offer better performance and sound for alot less money. DD, Fi, AE, SSA, SoundSplinter, AQ, Treo. There are several brands worth looking at over JL.


You sound like the dudes at Innovative Car Audio.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Catman said:


> Actually, I'm saying that in the 'money is no object' (serious SQ) catagory JL does not make SQ products ...they are kinda like the "Chevrolet" of the audio world ...they function adequately for the masses ...but don't come close when compared to 'high end' options ...and many 'mid-fi' options. JL makes a good product ...IMO it is overpriced ....but I'm not saying that it is bad ...it is just not SQ.
> 
> >^..^<


Why is it not "SQ" though? Simply being expensive is NOT a disqualifier. It's pretty universally accepted that the W7 are great souding subs. The only people I've known that don't like the W7 are people that have never heard clean low bass.


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## simplyclean (Jan 23, 2009)

Do you have to have a weird name sub that 99.999% of the population has never heard of in order for it to be considered "SQ"? Those home audiophile reviews on the gotham are pretty impressive. JL Audio makes great subwoofers and products in general. Too bad everyone hates on them because they've gotten big.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

tgnylu said:


> You sound like the dudes at Innovative Car Audio.


I was going to ask him what his username was on caraudio.com.:laugh:


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## fischman (Jan 3, 2007)

I believe the W7 is safely in the SQ dept. I think the hate comes from the price vs. performance aspect. There are ALOT of JL Fanboys that feel like they have to justify their large sums of money by talking about how godly the W7 is vs all others. Just imagine the opinion of the 12W7 if they retailed at $250 dollars everyday, all day. It would be priced similar to the likes of FI Q then. Now, I applaud JL for creating a great sub and being able to sell it for large sums of money, that's just a great business plan. However, many people do get tired of hearing about how it is the best thing in car audio since sliced bread. Now that's not so much on here, however locally, I find that most people feel that way solely based on the JL name, good reviews and the high price. Most could get similar or better quality for less money, but that doesn't mean the W7 is bad at all, just a bad price to quality ratio when compared to other options. Just my .02

Josh


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Why is it not "SQ" though? Simply being expensive is NOT a disqualifier. It's pretty universally accepted that the W7 are great souding subs. The only people I've known that don't like the W7 are people that have never heard clean low bass.


I find it a little funny that people talk sh*t about expensive Drivers. In the lanes (IASCA) people with cheap ass drivers don't do as well we're waiting for some cheapo to come along and blow us away, but it hasn't happened yet.

If you're happy with what you have great, but the 12W7 is a SQ Sub.


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

jbowers said:


> Compared to DIY gear that is purpose built specifically for SQ you are dead on. Compared to mass-market I'd say they're one of the few companies that's making an effort. Out of the mass market stuff that's out there, I'd consider the W6V2, the W7, the IDMax and the WGTi as very good sounding mass market subs, but compromised for marketing reasons - namely being a better sub than most but still capable of satisfying the logo whores and bass heads.
> 
> The W7 wasn't engineered to be a SQ sub, but it's the best sounding thing I've ever heard that gets that ungodly loud.


The W7 was specifically engineered as a low-distortion, high-output SQ-oriented subwoofer (I sat in on the meetings before and during development). The fact that our home subwoofers use them and have been given the highest accolades by the audiophile press supports this fact amply:

"The JL Audio Fathom is of reference quality and a benchmark by which all other subwoofers can be judged."
-Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound, March 2007

"Two JL Audio Fathom f113 subwoofers produced dramatic changes in my audio system. Never before had new audio gear reshaped the depth and width of the soundstage, doubled the dynamic range, and increased the transparency, all at the same time. The Fathoms' reproduction of double bass had ear-boggling dynamics and pace."
-Larry Greenhill, Stereophile, September 2007

More here: JL Audio: Products


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## ashlar (Dec 4, 2008)

Vance Dickason, Eric Holdaway and Richard Clark must all be idiots. Dickason, with all his years of designing subwoofers and Eric with all his years installing car audio and having built the famed Buick Grand National (people are still talking about that car today) and Richard Clark with over 40 years in pro audio, must not know what they are talking about.

Personally, I would hardly trust the opinion of others who seem to have an obvious chip on their shoulders or who otherwise have never proven themselves in this or any other industry. Mr. Chin once said, "good things no cheap, cheap things no good." Hey, if it is in your price range, buy it; if not, save towards it or look for something that you can afford.

Just remember that everyone has an opinion, but I will always be guided by the opinion of someone who has a proven track record. It doesn't mean that I will not listen to the opinion of others. It just means that their opinions will go through one ear and come out the other.

Be guided accordingly.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

fischman said:


> Most could get similar or better quality for less money,


Like what, for instance? Tere are some very well made drivers but I can't think of anything I've seen that's built better than a W7. 



michaelsil1 said:


> I find it a little funny that people talk sh*t about expensive Drivers. In the lanes (IASCA) people with cheap ass drivers don't do as well we're waiting for some cheapo to come along and blow us away, but it hasn't happened yet.
> 
> If you're happy with what you have great, but the 12W7 is a SQ Sub.


Right? Is it POSSIBLE to use cheap drivers and get good sound? Apparently as demonstrated by the info Patrick Bates posted but in a car, I think you're better off starting with a driver that's designed with the car environment in mind.


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## jbowers (May 3, 2009)

Catman said:


> Actually, I'm saying that in the 'money is no object' (serious SQ) catagory JL does not make SQ products ...they are kinda like the "Chevrolet" of the audio world ...they function adequately for the masses ...but don't come close when compared to 'high end' options ...and many 'mid-fi' options. JL makes a good product ...IMO it is overpriced ....but I'm not saying that it is bad ...it is just not SQ.
> 
> >^..^<


You could argue that - but honestly could any company really sell a "money is no object" SQ sub in brick and mortar stores? JL has to make a product that satisfies the bottom line objective of moving units just like any other company. A monster subwoofer that moves retarded amounts of air and still manages to sound very good is almost too much to ask for when you're a company competing with fartbox subs like Kicker. 

Sorry to the OP for taking this so far off track - honestly the definition of a SQ oriented sub is up to you. There's SQ, and there's "enough SQ for your purposes". Listen and let your ears tell you what you need to know.


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## jbowers (May 3, 2009)

msmith said:


> The W7 was specifically engineered as a low-distortion, high-output SQ-oriented subwoofer (I sat in on the meetings before and during development). The fact that our home subwoofers use them and have been given the highest accolades by the audiophile press supports this fact amply:
> 
> "The JL Audio Fathom is of reference quality and a benchmark by which all other subwoofers can be judged."
> -Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound, March 2007
> ...


Don't get me wrong - I would demo the W7 first each and every time someone came in asking for the "best sub". We installed enough of them for me to be a believer, although my personal taste was in favor of the W6V2. I think what people get hung up on is the sheer power of the W7. It's capable of far more output than what most people seem to prefer from an SQ sub, however I see it as dynamic range to spare and enough headroom to ensure you'd never get it past linearity. That much output makes it very easy to overpower the front stage and create obnoxious amounts of low end, leaving many SQ fanatics to deem it non-suitable for SQ. As I'm in a Jetta with relatively little trunk space and plans for autocross action next summer it's off my list - but there's no denying it's a very good sub. If I wasn't afraid of getting evicted from my apartment I'd certainly be looking at a Gotham


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## divvide (Apr 4, 2009)

It seems as if people always want to root for the underdog... it is deeply hidden is us to root for them.. it gives us hope in life in a weird sortta way... but the truth is... the jl 12w7 is perfection.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

simplyclean said:


> Do you have to have a weird name sub that 99.999% of the population has never heard of in order for it to be considered "SQ"? Those home audiophile reviews on the gotham are pretty impressive. JL Audio makes great subwoofers and products in general. Too bad everyone hates on them because they've gotten big.


I agree. For some reason, there is always backlash when a brand becomes "mainstream". And for whatever reason, many people think that "mainstream" automatically = POS. I spoke to a JL dealer a few months back and he told me he was thinking of ending his relationship with JL because the brand no longer had "panache". He had nothing bad to say about the actual items JL made and fully endorsed them, but thought about no longer being a dealer because he felt the prestige no longer existed. Ridiculous.


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## bass_lover1 (Dec 10, 2005)

audiodepot101 said:


> I had a JLW7 until I seen two of them get smoke by one DD9512 which is a SQL sub, not bashing on JL that was my sub of choice even back in the early 90"s But those DD's are unreal and very clean sounding sub.


Smoked, like the DDz rolled it up in a joint and smoked it? I'd pay good money to see that.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

rain27 said:


> I agree. For some reason, there is always backlash when a brand becomes "mainstream". And for whatever reason, many people think that "mainstream" automatically = POS. I spoke to a JL dealer a few months back and he told me he was thinking of ending his relationship with JL because the brand no longer had "panache". He had nothing bad to say about the actual items JL made and fully endorsed them, but thought about no longer being a dealer because he felt the prestige no longer existed. Ridiculous.


Unfortunately, that dealer is onto something.

People don't feel like they're "Sound Q" unless they're running some foreign brand with a name you can't pronounce.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

jbowers said:


> Sorry to the OP for taking this so far off track - honestly the definition of a SQ oriented sub is up to you. There's SQ, and there's "enough SQ for your purposes". Listen and let your ears tell you what you need to know.


I agree ...if JL is 'good enough' for anyone ...they should buy it. Just like Chevrolet is 'good enough' for most people ....heck ....Yugo was 'good enough' for many. American consumers strive for mediocrity. This is why more people drive Chevy than BMW ....more drink Bud than Bass ...more people shoot Smith & Wesson than Kimber. (the list is ENDLESS) The more 'average' a product ...the more popular is it. I won't 'settle' for JL. Even in the JL Stealthbox the ID's performed MUCH better ...played lower ...and was MUCH more musical. The JL's were not a 'one note wonder' ...but IMO they are more suited for SPL.

>^..^<


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

Catman said:


> I agree ...if JL is 'good enough' for anyone ...they should buy it. Just like Chevrolet is 'good enough' for most people ....heck ....Yugo was 'good enough' for many. American consumers strive for mediocrity. This is why more people drive Chevy than BMW ....more drink Bud than Bass ...more people shoot Smith & Wesson than Kimber. (the list is ENDLESS) The more 'average' a product ...the more popular is it. I won't 'settle' for JL. Even in the JL Stealthbox the ID's performed MUCH better ...played lower ...and was MUCH more musical. The JL's were not a 'one note wonder' ...but IMO they are more suited for SPL.
> 
> >^..^<


It's not about being "good enough". There are people who buy a W7 because they actually prefer it over anything else out there. They're not "settling". And by the way, more people drive a Chevy than a BMW because Chevy's are cheaper and that's what they can afford. They aren't striving for mediocrity, and perhaps, don't care to have a BMW anyway. Isn't the ID the "Chevy" in this scenario anyway? You can buy two ID's for the price of one W7.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

rain27 said:


> It's not about being "good enough". There are people who buy a W7 because they actually prefer it over anything else out there. They're not "settling". And by the way, more people drive a Chevy than a BMW because Chevy's are cheaper and that's what they can afford. They aren't striving for mediocrity, and perhaps, don't care to have a BMW anyway. Isn't the ID the "Chevy" in this scenario anyway? You can buy two ID's for the price of one W7.


I sounds like you are shopping by price ....the W7 *must* be good because it is expensive ...and you discount the ID's because they are cheap. My "Chevrolet" reference was about 'quality' ...not price.

>^..^<


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

All I mean to say is that mainstream products do not necessarily equate to inferior products. Price is not the only factor. A mainstream product can very well be the best there is. I personally do not own a W7, but I don't automatically bash a product because it is widely available and sold in chain stores. I'm not saying you do, but a lot of people dislike JL simply because it is popular and for no other reason.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

rain27 said:


> All I mean to say is that mainstream products do not necessarily equate to inferior products. Price is not the only factor. A mainstream product can very well be the best there is. I personally do not own a W7, but I don't automatically bash a product because it is widely available and sold in chain stores. I'm not saying you do, but a lot of people dislike JL simply because it is popular and for no other reason.


Funny thing is that if I tout a high end (expensive) product I'm called an elitist. Price or popularity or where it is sold has nothing to do with why I don't like JL ...I don't like JL because the SQ is not up to what I demand. JL products are well made ...but they are NO a SQ product. Sure ...they are better than the average 'flea market special' ...and even better than a lot of 'mid-fi' equipment ....but while JL is at the top of the 'mid-fi' offerings ...they are still 'mid-fi'.

>^..^<


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## tgnylu (Aug 28, 2009)

Chuck Norris got into a fight with a W7 and lost.


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

Catman said:


> Funny thing is that if I tout a high end (expensive) product I'm called an elitist. Price or popularity or where it is sold has nothing to do with why I don't like JL ...I don't like JL because the SQ is not up to what I demand. JL products are well made ...but they are NO a SQ product. Sure ...they are better than the average 'flea market special' ...and even better than a lot of 'mid-fi' equipment ....but while JL is at the top of the 'mid-fi' offerings ...they are still 'mid-fi'.
> 
> >^..^<


You're entitled to your opinion, of course. I know what goes into designing them and making them (here in the USA, I might add), and I also know what kind of results they produce in many different applications. If something else floats your boat more, then more power to you.


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

I wonder how people who are bashing jl audio never used or heard them. Back in the day if you wanted to win it was jl audio for subs.
.


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## divvide (Apr 4, 2009)

huh?? wha?? bah??..... did you even hear a w7?? it has the perfect balance between sq and spl.. hence the sql title it deserves. Ive been tuning up my friends jl 500/1 v2 jl amp which is pushing a 12w7.... Man this thing is no joke!!! i had my doubts..... but about 2 days ago they were all gone. The thing about the w7 is that it produces clean tonal sq bass with alot of authority..... shockingly seductive. to make matters worse... I had won this sub for $315 shipped and let my friend buy it at the time due to lack of funds. Im trying really hard to kick my own ass man... but its hard to reach


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Catman said:


> Funny thing is that if I tout a high end (expensive) product I'm called an elitist. Price or popularity or where it is sold has nothing to do with why I don't like JL ...I don't like JL because the SQ is not up to what I demand. JL products are well made ...but they are NO a SQ product. Sure ...they are better than the average 'flea market special' ...and even better than a lot of 'mid-fi' equipment ....but while JL is at the top of the 'mid-fi' offerings ...they are still 'mid-fi'.
> 
> >^..^<



Interesting that people get to listen to the best subs on the planet STILL call the W7s one of the best available anywhere, at any cost. 

The more you post the more I realize you have NO idea what you're talking about.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> Interesting that people get to listen to the best subs on the planet STILL call the W7s one of the best available anywhere, at any cost.
> 
> The more you post the more I realize you have NO idea what you're talking about.


People just like talking Sh*t!


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

Imo a pair of w7 looks better than a pair of idmax (sorry steven). W7 is pure sex


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## ashlar (Dec 4, 2008)

Catman said:


> I agree ...if JL is 'good enough' for anyone ...they should buy it. >^..^<


JL is good enough that's why Mark Eldridge uses it in his NASCAR. He must know something.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Catman said:


> Funny thing is that if I tout a high end (expensive) product I'm called an elitist. Price or popularity or where it is sold has nothing to do with why I don't like JL ...I don't like JL because the SQ is not up to what I demand. JL products are well made ...but they are NO a SQ product. Sure ...they are better than the average 'flea market special' ...and even better than a lot of 'mid-fi' equipment ....but while JL is at the top of the 'mid-fi' offerings ...they are still 'mid-fi'.
> 
> >^..^<


Explain your "hi-fi" criteria.

The w7 has EARNED it's reputation by succeeding in both objective and subjective testing.


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## simplyclean (Jan 23, 2009)

rain27 said:


> I agree. For some reason, there is always backlash when a brand becomes "mainstream". And for whatever reason, many people think that "mainstream" automatically = POS. I spoke to a JL dealer a few months back and he told me he was thinking of ending his relationship with JL because the brand no longer had "panache". He had nothing bad to say about the actual items JL made and fully endorsed them, but thought about no longer being a dealer because he felt the prestige no longer existed. Ridiculous.


I'm with you on that one. A Hertz/audison/whateverbrandbuilttoorder subwoofer setup would immediately considered high end and SQ, while a Alpine/Clarion/JL would not. the vifa/tymphanny(?) built SPX-17PROs, Zeff based DPX (arc audio "clones") and W7s are pretty nice products capable of delivering "SQ" whatever what your after. On the other hand, since most of us are in North America, the mainstream brands we get here which are not easily distributed as well in other parts of the world may be considered "high end" there. A lot of brand names have prestige, like cars. You can't compare a BMW to an Acura unless you get more info, like finding it's a 1 series versus an RL.

JL is a mainstream brand, but what's interesting is that it's really the only american company that remains and has grown considerably unlike all the others who have sold out and gone downhill. JL made great subwoofers back when they were taking all these trophies at the IASCA finals years ago and the make great subwoofers now and plenty of other things too. 

Mechanical and electrical parameters of a driver will change when it gets warm and at moderate to medium volume levels. Heat and stress are bad. Can you hear it? If you can it's probably in your head, just like how a W7 might be perceived to be sloppy sounding in regards to "SQ" because of what it is and how it looks. I believe with the W7, you're paying for the extra technology to minimize all this and retain your "SQ" with the option to play it retardedly loud reliably when you want, provided it's properly set up in the right application and properly tuned.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

starboy869 said:


> Imo a pair of w7 looks better than a pair of idmax (sorry steven). W7 is pure sex


You prove my point exactly ...the average consumer doesn't care about SQ as much as they care about 'looking cool' ....this is why people buy AudioBahn ....Chrome Flames.

JL is a lot like Bose ...they have created an 'illusion' of quality through marketing and high price. The average consumer strives to be part of the 'in crowd' and buys by 'name recognition'. People had rather brag about owning a Pioneer amp than own a McIntosh (that very few people have heard of).



msmith said:


> ....I know what goes into designing them and making them (here in the USA, I might add) ...


That really doesn't mean much ...I can think of very few products made in the USA that are not made better somewhere else. Made in USA is NOT a badge of honor ....it is (in most cases) an indication of crap. I'm in no way saying that JL is crap ...it is definitely not crap. It just doesn't compare when it comes to truly SQ products. As I have said MANY times ...JL makes a 'well made' product that is reliable ...OTOH it is 'marketed to the masses' ...like Budweiser and Chevrolet ...which means it is a COMPROMISE.



divvide said:


> huh?? wha?? bah??..... did you even hear a w7?? it has the perfect balance between sq and spl.. hence the sql title it deserves....


Yes ...I have heard the W7 ...and W6 ...and a few of the others ...not impressed with any of them. I think this is the problem ...they try to do both ...and FAIL. Remember ...."to do two things at once is to do neither well". IMO they should devote their efforts to either SQ ...or SPL ....not try to be SQL.

>^..^<


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## tgnylu (Aug 28, 2009)

Catman said:


> Remember ...."to do two things at once is to do neither well".


I think this has got to be the most ridiculous quote I've ever heard. So we should all compose our systems of components that do one only one thing well so that we can make sure it's in line with a cliche that you heard once?


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## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

-pisses on the fire that was once this thread-

there. ahhhh, satisfied.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I always get a laugh at the ca.com kiddies who say "There is better for less" every time someone wants to purchase a JL Audio subwoofer. It is even funnier when I ask them what equipment they are running, and their "system" consists of an amplifier and a subwoofer. Going further, their Korean amplifier and Chinese subwoofer together cost WAY less than the MSRP on a single JL Audio subwoofer. Sounds like "Sound Quality" was NOT their goal to begin with but rather they want to produce a lot of annoying bass.

Naturally, I will agree that there are subwoofers on the market that cost less than a JL Audio subwoofer. That "better" part is something I will disagree with most of the time.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Catman said:


> You prove my point exactly ...the average consumer doesn't care about SQ as much as they care about 'looking cool' ....this is why people buy AudioBahn ....Chrome Flames.


Which worked so well Audiobahn went out of business... Nice example of fail.



> JL is a lot like Bose ...they have created an 'illusion' of quality through marketing and high price.


I guess the people that get paid to listen to REAL SQ HT gear must be fooled by the illusion as well. 



> ...which means it is a COMPROMISE.


What ISN'T a compromise?



> Yes ...I have heard the W7 ...and W6 ...and a few of the others ...not impressed with any of them. I think this is the problem ...they try to do both ...and FAIL. Remember ...."to do two things at once is to do neither well". IMO they should devote their efforts to either SQ ...or SPL ....not try to be SQL.
> 
> >^..^<


Well since you're the all-knowing authority of what is and is not SQ why not give us a rundown of what you run on your car? Or is this where you backpedal and say some BS like "SQ isn't my goal?"


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

quality_sound said:


> Well since you're the all-knowing authority of what is and is not SQ why not give us a rundown of what you run on your car? Or is this where you backpedal and say some BS like "SQ isn't my goal?"


I realize this is going to turn into a pissing contest and that they JL Fanboi's will rip apart my systems...but here it is anyway.

*96R Miata

*Nakamichi CD700II HU
McIntosh MC4000 amp
FOCAL PolyGlass in doors
JL Stealthbox with upgraded ID8's


*97T Miata

*Nakamichi CD45z HU
Nakamichi EC200 / EC200H x-overs
Nakamichi PA400 / PA300 amps
Rainbow speakers
JL Stealthbox with upgraded ID8's

*89 Ferrari 328

*Nakamichi CD700II HU
Brax / Tru Amps
Morel Elates 
Peerless XLS 10" sub

*95 BMW 525iT

*Nakamichi CD400 HU
Soundstream Tarantula (TRA series) amps
Peerless mids / TBI Tweeters
2 Namamichi SP1010 subs

*2004 Chevy Work Van

*Nakamichi CD45z HU
Nak EC200 / EC2ooH x-overs
Soundstream Reference amps
Diamond speakers 
Currently redoing the van and undecided on subs


>^..^<


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Hmm... not seing a SINGLE sub you're using that's even in the same league as even a W6 let alone a W7. I won't comment on the rest of the gear as it's a very wide mix of low- to high-end.


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## divvide (Apr 4, 2009)

i think you should try one in your workvan..... listen to the variety of music you listen to.. And trust me... you'll like it.... Trust me... its like eating fried ants. How can you like it if you dont even try it!!

when i first heard all the hype of the w7's, i too had my doubts.... and i also tried to put them down and equal them to all the other drivers out there... but they are in a category of their own.


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## ashlar (Dec 4, 2008)

It is posts like those from the JL Audio dissenters that have me wanting to take a closer look at the W7. Don't we no longer have smart people out there? If it were me, and I do consider myself to be of average intelligence, after listening to all the positive things that have been said by the expert reviewers about this sub in their reviews and I still disagree, then I would seriously question my opinion regarding what I "perceive" as SQ. I would even go so far as to calling myself an idiot but no, wait, it is probably the expert reviewers who are idiots, but I seriously don't think so.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

ashlar said:


> It is posts like those from the JL Audio dissenters that have me wanting to take a closer look at the W7. Don't we no longer have smart people out there? If it were me, and I do consider myself to be of average intelligence, after listening to all the positive things that have been said by the expert reviewers about this sub in their reviews and I still disagree, then I would seriously question my opinion regarding what I "perceive" as SQ. I would even go so far as to calling myself an idiot but no, wait, it is probably the expert reviewers who are idiots, but I seriously don't think so.


SQ can be achieved for a minimal amount of money; it's when you want SQ at volume that it becomes expensive.


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## jbowers (May 3, 2009)

michaelsil1 said:


> SQ can be achieved for a minimal amount of money; it's when you want SQ at volume that it becomes expensive.


That's the point I was attempting to make earlier. There are plenty of subs that will produce tight accurate bass and provide a very good SQ, but I haven't heard one that will equal the SQ of a W7 at "rip your face off" volume levels.


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## ashlar (Dec 4, 2008)

michaelsil1 said:


> SQ can be achieved for a minimal amount of money; it's when you want SQ at volume that it becomes expensive.


Motor linearity, suspension linearity, linear excursion, distortion, extension, dynamic stability, real power handling, clean output comes cheap? OKAAAY.


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## jbowers (May 3, 2009)

ashlar said:


> Motor linearity, suspension linearity, linear excursion, distortion, extension, dynamic stability, real power handling, clean output comes cheap? OKAAAY.


100% uncompromising SQ doesn't come cheap, but tight accurate bass can be had with relatively inexpensive drivers. I seriously doubt anyone's referring to bargain basement $70 Best Buy subs, but there are plenty of very well received subs like the Shiva-X and the Peerless XXL that seem to provide plenty of SQ for what can be considered cheap compared to the W7. They'll never compare directly, but they seem to make an awful lot of people happy.


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## msmith (Nov 27, 2007)

Catman said:


> You prove my point exactly ...the average consumer doesn't care about SQ as much as they care about 'looking cool' ....this is why people buy AudioBahn ....Chrome Flames.
> 
> JL is a lot like Bose ...they have created an 'illusion' of quality through marketing and high price. The average consumer strives to be part of the 'in crowd' and buys by 'name recognition'. People had rather brag about owning a Pioneer amp than own a McIntosh (that very few people have heard of).


We earned our name recognition by delivering products that perform. It didn't happen because of brilliant marketing, as much as I would love to take credit for it. I can tell you that the products we build today are vastly better than the products that we built when we were a small, niche player. Having resources to tool things and invest in good equipment to help design and build the product has very significant advantages.



> That really doesn't mean much ...I can think of very few products made in the USA that are not made better somewhere else. Made in USA is NOT a badge of honor ....it is (in most cases) an indication of crap.


Really? It's a shame you feel that way. Lots of incredibly high quality products are made here in the USA and when you buy them you support American jobs and keep the profits at home. 

Penn fishing reels
Craftsman, SnapOn and Mac Tools
Remington Firearms
Boeing aircraft
Red Wing shoes
Cutco Cutlery
Harley Davidson motorcycles

and in the audio industry:
Krell
McIntosh
Thiel
Moog
B&K Components
Fender guitars (the good ones)


Plus, it's always nice to have the engineers that design the product a few feet away from where they're built. Helps keep the quality standards up. But, you're free to buy what you want.



> I'm in no way saying that JL is crap ...it is definitely not crap. It just doesn't compare when it comes to truly SQ products. As I have said MANY times ...JL makes a 'well made' product that is reliable ...OTOH it is 'marketed to the masses' ...like Budweiser and Chevrolet ...which means it is a COMPROMISE.


Budweiser and Chevrolet are not expensive and you said we are... so let's say we're more like BMW or Cadillac... premium products that sell in pretty good volume compared to niche brands, but nowhere near the volume of the less expensive stuff.

As for not being "truly SQ", you're entitled to your own opinions regarding what is SQ, but you need to realize that these are shaped by preconceptions and references that you have chosen to accept.



> Yes ...I have heard the W7 ...and W6 ...and a few of the others ...not impressed with any of them. I think this is the problem ...they try to do both ...and FAIL. Remember ...."to do two things at once is to do neither well". IMO they should devote their efforts to either SQ ...or SPL ....not try to be SQL.


Hey, we can't make everybody happy. Some people actually prefer the sound of distortion, for example, and we don't build products for them, either.


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## poochieone (Aug 25, 2005)

Catman,
you have a list of impressive brand names in your cars. I have used pretty much all of the 'high end' brands you mention including the Tru (copper, hybrid and tube), brax, Macs, Naks, Focals, Morel, to name a few. All fine brand names (albeit expensive as well). In using them and testing with as many A/B comparisons as possible i've come to piece my personal system with a variety of goods while not caring for brand matching or costs for that matter (that is, the cheaper i can attain X-level performance, the better). in choosing a subwoofer i took the same ideology and tested several sub lines with good reputation (JBL Gti, TC9, TC3k, JL W6 and W7, Vifa, Fosgate Power series, SI,Arc, Image Dynamics (W,Q,Max), and the list goes on) only to find that the JL W7 series was the only one that consistently fared well in all my tests and comparisons. maybe not perfect but as close to it as i've heard. aside from the weight i don't have a single complain about the subs. although i rarely recommend them to the average enthusiast (as it is above most people's budgets) , if ever anyone asks me for a price is no object high performance sub, the response is the W7. I'm far from a JL Fanboy (the W7 is the only JL product in my system) or any other company but i will give credit where its due and JL does make a seriously technologically advanced subwoofer. I can't imagine what you would see in the W7 series that makes them of poor quality , full of compromise, or poor sounding especially compared to the IDs you seem to be running. there is no accounting for taste, but if you think a W7 is not good enough for you yet you settle for an ID, then your reasoning is ill and you are definitely biased against JL. Some of your commentary is actually a bit outlandish!


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

quality_sound said:


> Hmm... not seing a SINGLE sub you're using that's even in the same league as even a W6 let alone a W7. I won't comment on the rest of the gear as it's a very wide mix of low- to high-end.


I did extensive A/B comparisons between the 8W6 and the ID8 in the JL Stealthbox in both of my Miatas. The ID were hand down the winner ...they played lower and were MUCH more musical than the 8W6 ...the JL's were a 'one note wonder' when compared to the ID's. The Nak SP1010's (and SP80's) are superior to anything from JL when it comes to SQ (JL wins if you want SPL) I have heard a few W7's ...and have not been impressed with any of them.

>^..^<


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

msmith said:


> Really? It's a shame you feel that way. Lots of incredibly high quality products are made here in the USA and when you buy them you support American jobs and keep the profits at home.
> 
> Penn fishing reels
> Craftsman, SnapOn and Mac Tools
> ...


So ...you are comparing yourself to 'average' products. I really don't give a rats rear about "buying American" or keeping American jobs here ....if I have to take a cut in quality to do it.

Penn fishing reels ...I'll take your word on it, as I'm not a fisherman and don't have any knowledge of their products.

Craftsman tools are pretty much average at best ...and will not compare to the finest from Germany. Snap-On and Mac are better than Craftsman ...but there are better.

Remington ....again ...typical American product ...aimed at the "good enough" market that doesn't have a clue about quality ...but at least they can impress their friends (who don't know any, better either). Remington is much like JL IMO ...they make a good / dependable product ...but cannot compare to 'real' quality. Nothing from Remington can compare to the firearms from Germany. Have you ever had the opportunity to hold / shoot an Anschutz, H&K (German), Steyr, Sako, Walther? NOTHING coming from the USA can compare.

Boeing ...I'm not an aircraft expert ...I have worked for Boeing. (aerospace) ...not sure how a 737 will compare to an AirBus.

Redwing shoes ...there again ...no experience.

Cutco ...they are better than most crap made in the USA ....but fall WAY short when compared to the finest Japanese / German cutlery such as Shun, Henckles and Al Mar. Same with pocket knives ...Case / Buck are a joke when compared to Hen & Rooster / Eye Brand / Puma.

Harley Davidson ...this is a weird one. Harley is the only bike I will ride ...but I don't think they are that great when it comes to technology / overall quality. IMO BMW is hands down ahead of HD in those areas.

Cars ...the 'best' USA made cars pale in comparison to Mercedes / Rolls Royce / Ferrari / BMW


and in the audio industry:

Moog

Fender guitars (the good ones)

Moog was an innovator ...not sure where they are in the market today 

Fender ...again ...and American tradition ...I'm sure there are better ...but I'm not a guitar player.

Percussion ...as a professional / semi-pro percussionist I can tell you that NOTHING from the USA compares. Ludwig SUCKS when compared to Sonor.

The list is endless. Also ...I said 'most' ...not 'all' USA products are 'second rate'.



poochieone said:


> .....I can't imagine what you would see in the W7 series that makes them of poor quality , full of compromise, or poor sounding especially compared to the IDs you seem to be running.....


I think people are misunderstanding what I've been saying ...I have not meant to imply that JL is bad / poor ....I'm saying that they are NOT great and that NOTHING from JL is a SQ product. But if someone wants to sound 'pretty good' while being loud (SQL) ...or just want to be heard a block away ...JL is probably 'good enough'.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Catman said:


> I did extensive A/B comparisons between the 8W6 and the ID8 in the JL Stealthbox in both of my Miatas. The ID were hand down the winner ...they played lower and were MUCH more musical than the 8W6 ...the JL's were a 'one note wonder' when compared to the ID's. The Nak SP1010's (and SP80's) are superior to anything from JL when it comes to SQ (JL wins if you want SPL) I have heard a few W7's ...and have not been impressed with any of them.
> 
> >^..^<


Amazing.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I hate Sonor drums, I turn gigs down because of Sonor drums.

"What drums do you have?"

"Sonor"

"No thanks, I'll stay home with the wife and kid"


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

ashlar said:


> Motor linearity, suspension linearity, linear excursion, distortion, extension, dynamic stability, real power handling, clean output comes cheap? OKAAAY.


SI Mag v.4 seems to fit those criteria  - that's why I bought a second one (cheap I may add). 

Kelvin


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Catman said:


> I did extensive A/B comparisons between the 8W6 and the ID8 in the JL Stealthbox in both of my Miatas. The ID were hand down the winner ...they played lower and were MUCH more musical than the 8W6 ...the JL's were a 'one note wonder' when compared to the ID's. The Nak SP1010's (and SP80's) are superior to anything from JL when it comes to SQ (JL wins if you want SPL) I have heard a few W7's ...and have not been impressed with any of them.
> 
> >^..^<


NONE of JLs subs sound all that great right out of the box, you have to let them break in...a lot. If you compared the ID8 and the 8W6 without getting the 8W6 throughly broken in you did yourself a HUGE disservice. 

I think your bias comes from not having heard a car with JL subs that was setup for SQ. Do it and I guarantee your mind will change. 

And having sold JL and Nakamichi I can tell you that the Naks aren't more musical, they just have no low end extension so a lot of people THINK they're cleaner sounding.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Catman said:


> Cars ...the 'best' USA made cars pale in comparison to Mercedes / Rolls Royce / Ferrari / BMW


Wow... BMWs are not the most high end cars in the world and neither are Mercedes. Have you ever been in a Rolls?? I'll leave it at that. Well built they're not. Bentley on the other hand, Bugatti and other TRUE high end cars walk all over everything you named but Ferrari. Everything you listed seems to be "good enough mid-fi" stuff you're saying you're too good for. 

And your argument about the "best" American cars not comparing is silly. Saleen S7 and Vector are two that come right to mind that SPANKED anything coming from overseas. But most people were too prejudiced to accept them, much like you. Then you've got all the stuff that companies like Hennssey makes.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

quality_sound said:


> NONE of JLs subs sound all that great right out of the box, you have to let them break in...a lot. If you compared the ID8 and the 8W6 without getting the 8W6 throughly broken in you did yourself a HUGE disservice.
> 
> I think your bias comes from not having heard a car with JL subs that was setup for SQ. Do it and I guarantee your mind will change.
> 
> And having sold JL and Nakamichi I can tell you that the Naks aren't more musical, they just have no low end extension so a lot of people THINK they're cleaner sounding.


My 12 W7 took months to break in.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I remember when you first put it in actually. The initial reviews were less than flattering IIRC.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

quality_sound said:


> And having sold JL and Nakamichi I can tell you that the Naks aren't more musical, they just have no low end extension so a lot of people THINK they're cleaner sounding.


Weren't some of the Nakamichi drivers manufactured by Credence?


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## ashlar (Dec 4, 2008)

jbowers said:


> 100% uncompromising SQ doesn't come cheap


Apparently, you are now beginning to see things my way, whithout actually realizing it. The above are the hallmarks of the JL Audio design, and they excel in all of the above-mentioned categories. That what all of the above reviewers were talking about. Mind you, that was just "some" of the stellar reviews. Maybe some people just do not know how to appreciate quality; maybe some peoples version of a quality standard is lower than that of others. That maybe just the case here, or could it be the inability of some people to actually own a W7 subwoofer that have caused them to be part of a smear campaign.



Catman said:


> I really don't give a rats rear about "buying American" or keeping American jobs here....


What???


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## jbowers (May 3, 2009)

ashlar said:


> Apparently, you are now beginning to see things my way, whithout actually realizing it. The above are the hallmarks of the JL Audio design, and they excel in all of the above-mentioned categories. That what all of the above reviewers were talking about. Mind you, that was just "some" of the stellar reviews. Maybe some people just do not know how to appreciate quality; maybe some peoples version of a quality standard is lower than that of others. That maybe just the case here, or could it be the inability of some people to actually own a W7 subwoofer that have caused them to be part of a smear campaign.


Heh, I don't think we were ever in disagreement, I've been a fan of the W7 since day one. IMO it and the W6V2 are two of the finest sounding drivers I've ever heard, and I sold hundreds of them to my customers over the years.

SQ means different things to different people, and some would say that anything that gets that ungodly loud isn't SQ. Some people think an SQ sub has to be overly damped or made of unobtanium...some people will just never be satisfied with something they don't want to be satisfied with. I used to sell against Kicker all day long, and some people actually liked the farty Solobaric and didn't know what to think of clean bass. I used to hear "yeah, it's loud but it's not punchy" when the W7 didn't demonstrate harmonic distortion even while it was rattling the doors of the home theater demo rooms 200 feet across the store.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> Weren't some of the Nakamichi drivers manufactured by Credence?


hey, they made some great sounding unreliable tape decks!


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## PPI-ART (Mar 1, 2009)

Catman said:


> You prove my point exactly ...the average consumer doesn't care about SQ as much as they care about 'looking cool' ....this is why people buy AudioBahn ....Chrome Flames.
> 
> JL is a lot like Bose ...they have created an 'illusion' of quality through marketing and high price. The average consumer strives to be part of the 'in crowd' and buys by 'name recognition'. People had rather brag about owning a Pioneer amp than own a McIntosh (that very few people have heard of).
> 
> ...


Catman
I have got to hand it to you, you speak your opinion, and thats cool. I can Respect that. But if you think JL products are not geared for SQ you are sadly misinformed or just have no Idea what the definition of SQ is IMO. I have been at Iasca events since, well hell a long ass time. And I can tell you JL has more wins at Iasca sactioned events than most all other manufacturers combined. and I am not talking SPL wins either. 
the thing is, Once you are the KING of the hill you will always have someone try to knock you off the pedastal. Its been that way since the beginning of time. There are alot of high Quality drivers out there no doubt. And to Each their own I say. But for you to think that the original W6 line all the way to the W7 are not SQ subs, I say you have never heard a JL product the way it was intended to be. I think maybe you heard some weekend warrior that thru a W7 in in a weekend with no prior planning or no audio knowledge and just put it in a box a powered it up with any old amp laying around and said here man listen to my W7. when you plan, design, tune, etc and put a high quality audio system together with all the proper fundamentals you will no the difference.
If you are ever in michigan I would be glad to show you what SQ is. And I will bet money you will have a change of heart.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

jbowers said:


> Don't get me wrong - I would demo the W7 first each and every time someone came in asking for the "best sub". We installed enough of them for me to be a believer, although my personal taste was in favor of the W6V2. I think what people get hung up on is the sheer power of the W7. It's capable of far more output than what most people seem to prefer from an SQ sub, however I see it as dynamic range to spare and enough headroom to ensure you'd never get it past linearity. That much output makes it very easy to overpower the front stage and create obnoxious amounts of low end, leaving many SQ fanatics to deem it non-suitable for SQ. As I'm in a Jetta with relatively little trunk space and plans for autocross action next summer it's off my list - but there's no denying it's a very good sub. If I wasn't afraid of getting evicted from my apartment I'd certainly be looking at a Gotham


To be honest, I find it pretty amazing to have a sub like a W7 (never own anything JL by the way), which has "too much" low end. 
I'd rather have a subwoofer designed to have obnoxious low end that fits in a normal sized box and EQ down to your taste than 
a subwoofer that was not designed to play real low which will need either a good amount of boost (might introduce distorsion) or a too big of a box to fit in most installs. 

Just my oppinion, 
Kelvin


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

quality_sound said:


> NONE of JLs subs sound all that great right out of the box, you have to let them break in...a lot. If you compared the ID8 and the 8W6 without getting the 8W6 throughly broken in you did yourself a HUGE disservice.


The 8W6's were at least 2-3 years old ...about as 'broken in' as possible.

>^..^<


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## jbowers (May 3, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> To be honest, I find it pretty amazing to have a sub like a W7 (never own anything JL by the way), which has "too much" low end.
> I'd rather have a subwoofer designed to have obnoxious low end that fits in a normal sized box and EQ down to your taste than
> a subwoofer that was not designed to play real low which will need either a good amount of boost (might introduce distorsion) or a too big of a box to fit in most installs.
> 
> ...


Sorry to be unclear, I was echoing the sentiment that I've seen basically stating that a high output sub cannot be an SQ sub, which is not something I personally agree with. I love having too much power and dialing something back to balance vs. having to boost to retarded levels of distortion.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

I love my 12w7! I have owned many a sub over the last 20 years, and this is without a doubt my favorite. I can tell you one thing though, it needs power to reach its potential, no less than 1000 watts RMS will do. Seriously. I had 700 on it then went to 1200, WOW~ what a diff it made!!!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

all less than 3dB?


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## eggyhustles (Sep 18, 2008)

w6 is one of the best subs i've ever heard

w7 is nice too....i do like the ssa xcon over both tho in sq and spl...


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## mSaLL150 (Aug 14, 2008)

tgnylu said:


> Chuck Norris got into a fight with a W7 and lost.


Best post of this whole thread.


subwoofery said:


> SI Mag v.4 seems to fit those criteria - that's why I bought a second one (cheap I may add).
> 
> Kelvin


Yeah but the W7 demolishes the Mag in output...much more appealing to the masses.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

I love how people want to discount JL audio because they feel they're an overnight success, a fad.

The reality is that nothing could be farther from the truth. It took a lot of hard work and smart moves over a very long period of time to get where they are now. 

And you can compare solid companies like JL to crooks like eD all you like but there are very few parallels between the companies aside from the obvious.


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

Sex Cells said:


> I love how people want to discount JL audio because they feel they're an overnight success, a fad.
> 
> The reality is that nothing could be farther from the truth. It took a lot of hard work and smart moves over a very long period of time to get where they are now.


I agree ...JL is where they are because of careful marketing ...not because they make 'great' equipment.

>^..^<


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

Catman said:


> I agree ...JL is where they are because of careful marketing ...not because they make 'great' equipment.
> 
> >^..^<


To say they're not where they are due (at least in part) to offering great equipment is a grossly inaccurate IMO.


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## tinctorus (Oct 5, 2009)

msmith said:


> Our focus on quality has never wavered. Our focus on product design has never wavered, either. That's why we the W7 is going into its eighth year of production, essentially unchanged, and is still a state-of-the-art product that is capable of the highest levels of performance for those who seek quality of bass and quantity of bass.
> 
> Every W7 is made in our factory in Florida, and I doubt you can find a subwoofer built under tighter quality procedures anywhere in the world. You can see a gallery of our production facility here:
> Subwoofer Driver Production - Miramar, FL USA
> ...


I did this when I worked for sound advice/tweeter when they were still around and I have to say the "tour" of your plant was simply awe inspiring.

To see QUALITY products MADE IN AMERICA was GREAT


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## betterbelizeit (Oct 4, 2009)

Well I think I found the right discussion here. I'm in the process of designing a new system and I'm definately in need of some help in the area of what subwoofer to use. My previous system used (2) JL12W7's, then I switch to (1) 13W7 and to be fair to JL, I loved how they played but I'm never going to put that kinda of weight in my ride again. When you take the weight of the actual sub and a properly built box/boxex, it's just not worth it to me. So this being said, what's a good alternative to W7? Trying to avoid unreasonable weight, wanting fast and very tight bass...I drive a SUV so that should be taken into consideration...a 10" won't suffice. Looking for recommendation for a 12" sub....any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

betterbelizeit said:


> Well I think I found the right discussion here. I'm in the process of designing a new system and I'm definately in need of some help in the area of what subwoofer to use. My previous system used (2) JL12W7's, then I switch to (1) 13W7 and to be fair to JL, I loved how they played but I'm never going to put that kinda of weight in my ride again. When you take the weight of the actual sub and a properly built box/boxex, it's just not worth it to me. So this being said, what's a good alternative to W7? Trying to avoid unreasonable weight, wanting fast and very tight bass...I drive a SUV so that should be taken into consideration...a 10" won't suffice. Looking for recommendation for a 12" sub....any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


I have to assume you had ported enclosures? I tell you what, with an SUV why not just drop in a 13w7 Prowedge? It weighs less than 100lbs and with 1000w RMS + will knock your socks off.... I am currently running a 12w7 Prowedge in my Honda Accord and love it!


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## Galante (Jun 10, 2009)

if you find the W7 expensive for your wallet then go get the W6's. It's also worth the bucks you'll spend. Good SQ/SQL sub.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

I also find the weight to be a problem (12W7 ProWedge), I just live with it.


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## stockman2010 (Jan 11, 2010)

i love the way the 10 w7 sounds in a 1.5 cf sealed box.


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## Phillips (Jan 12, 2010)

Personally, I love my Polk Audio SR10. 63hz down past 17hz without an issue. 30-40 hz is VERY strong. Down near 20hz where the sound starts turning into pressure, the Polk just keeps on moving air. I can sit in the drivers seat and play Bass I love you by Bassotronics (just as an example song that a lot of people know) and my clothes shake off my skin due to the pressure. The lowest 7hz notes in that song are not reproduced, but every other note is, with equal force. On the other hand, throw in some metal or hard rock and the bass is out on the windshield, AND beating your chest with pressure. Obviously I've had to tune this system to bring the bass up like that, but the Polk sub makes it EASY. No problems at all keeping up with my Polk SR5250 woofer in terms of matching its speed on the fast bass notes, drums, whatever.

That's only on 400 watts. (DVC sub)


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Catman said:


> I agree ...JL is where they are because of careful marketing ...not because they make 'great' equipment.
> 
> >^..^<


I don't even think its worth it at this point to get in on this discussion, but I do have to agree somewhat with Catman. I owned a 10w3v2 and did not like the sound, so I moved to a 10w6v2 and liked it better, but it always sounded heavy to me. I owned the sub for about 1 1/2 years and decided to try the iDQ10v2 and found it to be much cleaner sounding...more musical and without the heaviness of the JL. I actually SPL'd higher and it always felt very controlled whereas the JL would sound a little slow at times. 

I will say the JL build quality was excellent and I believe the part of what I was hearing was due to the power requirements of the JL. It seemed like the JL was built to boast the high wattage ratings and therefore wanted tons of power to sound good. I was not willing to go to a class D amp (a discussion it itself) and the class A/B I used only had about 200-300 real watts on hand at max. The JL definitely wanted more and therefore seemed slow, heavy and uncontrolled.

I heard a vehicle with 2 W6v2's at finals with a 1000/1 and it sounded much better than my experience. For my purpose, the more efficient iDQ did the job better. JL probably make the best mass market subs today, but I still would go with other offerings for the extremely picky. Again, enclosure build quality and matching the sub with the proper amp can make huge differences.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> I don't even think its worth it at this point to get in on this discussion, but I do have to agree somewhat with Catman. I owned a 10w3v2 and did not like the sound, so I moved to a 10w6v2 and liked it better, but it always sounded heavy to me. I owned the sub for about 1 1/2 years and decided to try the iDQ10v2 and found it to be much cleaner sounding...more musical and without the heaviness of the JL. I actually SPL'd higher and it always felt very controlled whereas the JL would sound a little slow at times.
> 
> I will say the JL build quality was excellent and I believe the part of what I was hearing was due to the power requirements of the JL. It seemed like the JL was built to boast the high wattage ratings and therefore wanted tons of power to sound good. I was not willing to go to a class D amp (a discussion it itself) and the class A/B I used only had about 200-300 real watts on hand at max. The JL definitely wanted more and therefore seemed slow, heavy and uncontrolled.
> 
> I heard a vehicle with 2 W6v2's at finals with a 1000/1 and it sounded much better than my experience. For my purpose, the more efficient iDQ did the job better. JL probably make the best mass market subs today, but I still would go with other offerings for the extremely picky. Again, enclosure build quality and matching the sub with the proper amp can make huge differences.


I'm not sure I see where you're agreeing with him by the example you posted.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Sex Cells said:


> I'm not sure I see where you're agreeing with him by the example you posted.


I said somewhat agree and even the better sounding car I heard at finals would not put the JL's on my list of top sq subs. The problem....even in that car, I heard the subs. I shouldn't be able to pick out the subs or any other speakers, should all blend seamlessly .


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Galante said:


> if you find the W7 expensive for your wallet then go get the W6's. It's also worth the bucks you'll spend. Good SQ/SQL sub.


Again with the "SQL" terminology. What is SQL? Is everyone referring to Meca's *S*ound *Q*uality *L*eague?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

ChrisB said:


> Again with the "SQL" terminology. What is SQL? Is everyone referring to Meca's *S*ound *Q*uality *L*eague?


No, it has nothing to do with Meca. It simply means a sub with high output (SPL) and high sound quality (SQ) = SQL.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Niebur3 said:


> No, it has nothing to do with Meca. It simply means a sub with high output (SPL) and high sound quality (SQ) = SQL.


So it is a made up term!


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Honestly, JL cut their teeth in competition when competition meant something. The fact that they're still making quality equipment (especially considering the route that some of their peers have taken) is a testament to their commitment to quality products.

Of course now days, people don't respect your system unless your running European products.


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## diamondjoequimby (Jun 30, 2009)

Catman said:


> I agree ...JL is where they are because of careful design and engineering ... in order to make 'great' equipment.
> 
> >^..^<


fixed


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

To be honest, the JL Audio Stealthbox, loaded with a 13w6v2, was about the best drop-in solution I have heard in the 2005 - 2009 Mustang. MTX made one that was utter fail. So did Rockford Fosgate for Saleen. There was also the Scosche enclosure that could house "some" 12" subwoofers.

Unfortunately, I NEVER liked the sound of my 10w3v2s. I tried them in two different vehicles with three different enclosures, and IMHO, the box has to be built WAY big to get rid of their "boomy" tendencies.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> I said somewhat agree and even the better sounding car I heard at finals would not put the JL's on my list of top sq subs. The problem....even in that car, I heard the subs. I shouldn't be able to pick out the subs or any other speakers, should all blend seamlessly .


His failure, and yours, are due to the install. Not necessarily the equipment.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Catman said:


> I agree ...JL is where they are because of careful marketing ...not because they make 'great' equipment.>^..^<



OH please stop it! JL Audio got their rep years ago in the lanes and in the streets waay before they had the marketing budget of the later years. Don't even begin to try and call them the "Bose" of the car audio industry. I remember a time when I did not know who the hell JL Audio was. I went down to my local shop that had all of the hot big name brands at the time. I asked my guy "what was JL Audio all about" and "why were all of the IASCA guys in the magazines running them for subs?" I was shocked to see that the prices were less than the Boston Pro subs I was so fond of at the time.

As far as the W7.....
I never owned one and never cared to pay that much for sub bass for the car but.......correct me if I am wrong but... *Does anyone remember when it came out and if there were any other subs out at the time that had as much low end output, measured clean and linear, and were built like tanks? *I know the price of the W7 was up there but it seems the sub pushed some new boundaries?

IMO, I think the sub gets a bad rap because it produces too much low end than what is really needed in the car. I think the transfer function or bass boost of the vehicle "bloats" the sound. Seems like a much better product for home use, maybe? I REALLY don't think guys remeber how well this thing measured compared to other subs of the day. 

I seriously doubt I would get one for the car but oh boy how nice would a PHANTOM or GOTHAM be in a home theater setup.


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## diamondjoequimby (Jun 30, 2009)

isn't it saying something when a sub introduced 8 years ago is still being used as a benchmark reference? Not only by enthusiasts but by other manufacturers.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

and recognized in the home audio, studio and PA market?

Trust me, the PA guys look at those things about once a year on PSW forums and try to figure out how to make a horn out of them.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Sex Cells said:


> His failure, and yours, are due to the install. Not necessarily the equipment.


Due to install...please. You know nothing about how it was installed so you can keep your opinion to yourself! 

I'm glad we take magazines as the ultimate authority on sound quality...have you even read an article in a magazine where they said the product sounded terrible? If the magazine doesn't say nice things, then the manufacturer will stop sending them product to review and enough of that and the magazines are out of business. So ya, they are completely objective.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

diamondjoequimby said:


> isn't it saying something when a sub introduced 8 years ago is still being used as a benchmark reference? Not only by enthusiasts but by other manufacturers.


Who is using it as a benchmark reference?


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> Due to install...please. You know nothing about how it was installed so you can keep your opinion to yourself!
> 
> I'm glad we take magazines as the ultimate authority on sound quality...have you even read an article in a magazine where they said the product sounded terrible? If the magazine doesn't say nice things, then the manufacturer will stop sending them product to review and enough of that and the magazines are out of business. So ya, they are completely objective.


Nobody has mentioned magazines. 

You said it yourself. The sub didn't sound right, but you were giving it half the recommended power, so you don't know.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

Regarding power requirements of a 12w7. I had 700 watts rms, did the 2 ohm mod on my ZPA 0.5 bringing my 3 ohm power to 1200w rms. NIGHT AND DAY DIFF ON THE WAY THE SUB SOUNDED!!! These are power hungry monsters that dont suffer fools with small amps! Bring AT LEAST 800w RMS with a quality amp or forget about it on a 12w7.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Sex Cells said:


> Nobody has mentioned magazines.
> 
> You said it yourself. The sub didn't sound right, but you were giving it half the recommended power, so you don't know.


Ummmm...did you actually read the thread? Several people have mentioned the great reviews it received in several magazines. According to the power chart, the minimum is 100 watts and max is 500. I gave it 200 min and probably 300 max good clean power. I didn't read the part where JL states that if you don't give it 500 watts or more, it will sound like ass.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

Niebur3 said:


> Ummmm...did you actually read the thread? Several people have mentioned the great reviews it received in several magazines. According to the power chart, the minimum is 100 watts and max is 500. I gave it 200 min and probably 300 max good clean power. I didn't read the part where JL states that if you don't give it 500 watts or more, it will sound like ass.


You were WAAAAY underpowered. And what amp were you running? Enclosure specs?


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> Ummmm...did you actually read the thread? Several people have mentioned the great reviews it received in several magazines. According to the power chart, the minimum is 100 watts and max is 500. I gave it 200 min and probably 300 max good clean power. I didn't read the part where JL states that if you don't give it 500 watts or more, it will sound like ass.


I'm talking about our dialog and your bs. Not the rest of the thread.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

zpaguy said:


> You were WAAAAY underpowered. And what amp were you running? Enclosure specs?


Mcintosh MC440 with the 2X100 channel bridged to 2ohm (amp was stable, but limited to do power supply) and .6 sealed enclosure made with 3/4 mdf and 1 1/2 inch front baffle with fiberfill and a perfect seal on a 10w6v2. I experienced the same as others with it being boomy and slow and great at high volumes (output wise) but overall it blended poorly. I did try a 500/1....major difference was the output, but overall sound quality was worse.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Sex Cells said:


> I'm talking about our dialog and your bs. Not the rest of the thread.


So, please enlighten me with the other subs you have compared the JL's with to determine the superiority of the JL.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> Mcintosh MC440 with the 2X100 channel bridged to 2ohm (amp was stable, but limited to do power supply) and .6 sealed enclosure made with 3/4 mdf and 1 1/2 inch front baffle with fiberfill and a perfect seal on a 10w6v2. I experienced the same as others with it being boomy and slow and great at high volumes (output wise) but overall it blended poorly. I did try a 500/1....major difference was the output, but overall sound quality was worse.





Niebur3 said:


> I will say the JL build quality was excellent and I believe the part of what I was hearing was due to the power requirements of the JL. It seemed like the JL was built to boast the high wattage ratings and therefore wanted tons of power to sound good. I was not willing to go to a class D amp (a discussion it itself) and the class A/B I used only had about 200-300 real watts on hand at max. The JL definitely wanted more and therefore seemed slow, heavy and uncontrolled.


Funny, you attribute those qualities as possibly being due to the lack of power. Only when someone brings up the obvious point that _perhaps you weren't using enough power_ you suddenly assert that you did, infact, use more power. Maybe it was just the evil class D technology.

How many other speakers have i compared JL's offerings to? How many have I A/B'd in an objective test? None. How many have I auditioned? Plenty. Including Arc & IDs offerings. 

Do i contend that JL makes the BEST equipment. No, best is far too subjective. And I don't think there are any areas where I would be qualified to call anything the BEST anyway. But this isn't about that.

Do I feel they make GREAT equipment? Well, I certainly do. JL making great equipment doesn't make any other manufacturers offerings any worse. If you can't see a case for that already then nothing I can say is going to clear it up for you. Honestly, I don't have a whole lot of faith in the logic you use anyway.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

Niebur3 said:


> Mcintosh MC440 with the 2X100 channel bridged to 2ohm (amp was stable, but limited to do power supply) and .6 sealed enclosure made with 3/4 mdf and 1 1/2 inch front baffle with fiberfill and a perfect seal on a 10w6v2. I experienced the same as others with it being boomy and slow and great at high volumes (output wise) but overall it blended poorly. I did try a 500/1....major difference was the output, but overall sound quality was worse.


Tiny (and underbuilt) box, small power= crappy sound.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

Ya its funny, first it was 200-300 watts max, now he tried 500 on it. the bs flag cant help but go up, lol!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Sex Cells said:


> Funny, you attribute those qualities as possibly being due to the lack of power. Only when someone brings up the obvious point that _perhaps you weren't using enough power_ you suddenly assert that you did, infact, use more power. Maybe it was just the evil class D technology.
> 
> How many other speakers have i compared JL's offerings to? How many have I A/B'd in an objective test? None. How many have I auditioned? Plenty. Including Arc & IDs offerings.
> 
> ...


What are you even talking about. Try reading and then talking. I agree with you that they make great stuff. I do have respect form them, but because they are not in my top 5 in terms of sq, I get jumped all over. They are a great blend and way better then the likes of Rockford and Kicker and many others. I never mentioned the 500/1 because I only ran that for maybe a day or two to see if there was a difference. Look, people are looking for different things with their equipment, and I personally don't car for JL...that's all. If you like them, then good for you...buy, install and be happy!


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

zpaguy said:


> Tiny (and underbuilt) box, small power= crappy sound.


In what way was the box tiny and underbuilt? Jl recommends 3/4 mdf at .625 cu ft. Again, which other subs have you tried???


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

Niebur3 said:


> In what way was the box tiny and underbuilt? Jl recommends 3/4 mdf at .625 cu ft. Again, which other subs have you tried???


Hmmm, my 12w7 manual says 1". Some of the subs I have personally owned and used for extended time in my car over the years:

Treo SSi
Treo Tsx
Alumapro Alchemy
PG Xmax
PG Rsdc 10"
Zapco CW-12
MTX Blue Thunder
Nakamichi SP1010's
Alpine 6015 (what a beast! anybody have one?)
Infinity Beta 12's and 10's
Jl Audio 12w7

This is just what I can remember, there has def been more. So how bout you??


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

zpaguy said:


> Hmmm, my 12w7 manual says 1". Some of the subs I have personally owned and used for extended time in my car over the years:
> 
> Treo SSi
> Treo Tsx
> ...


Reading seems to be a real issue on here.....I said I had a 10w6, not a w7.

I have used and heard:
10W3v2 (sealed enclosure)
Old Rockford Fosgate Power Series (AP Enclosure)
Original Kicker Solobaric (sealed enclosure)
10W6v2 (sealed)
iDQv2 (sealed)
iDQv3 (sealed)
Infinity Perfect (10 inch) (sealed)
MTX gold series a long time ago (sealed)
Focal Utopia's (not my car) (sealed/ported)
Morel Ultimo (not my car) (sealed)
Isaca and Usaci champion with 2 JLW7's (don't know)
Arc Audio (not my car - sealed)
Hertz Mille (not my car - sealed)
Kicker L7's - various sizes (not my car - sealed)

There could be more. Again, personal preference.


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

Niebur3 said:


> Reading seems to be a real issue on here.....I said I had a 10w6, not a w7.
> 
> I have used and heard:
> 10W3v2 (sealed enclosure)
> ...


I know what you said, I assumed it applied to the 10 also due to the heavy build. 

All the subs you "used" that werent in your vehicle dont really amount to a hill of beans if you ask me. I personally tuned, experimented and built all the boxes (w/ the exception of the prowedge) with every sub I listed. Setup can make a lower quality woofer sound good while it can also make great woofer sound terrible. When you use your gear on a daily basis it gives you time to tune and play with a setup while also allowing you to develop an ear (and taste). IMHO

Also why in the world would you put 200-300 watts on a 750 watt RMS woofer? What did you expect?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

zpaguy said:


> I know what you said, I assumed it applied to the 10 also due to the heavy build.
> 
> All the subs you "used" that werent in your vehicle dont really amount to a hill of beans if you ask me. I personally tuned, experimented and built all the boxes (w/ the exception of the prowedge) with every sub I listed. Setup can make a lower quality woofer sound good while it can also make great woofer sound terrible. When you use your gear on a daily basis it gives you time to tune and play with a setup while also allowing you to develop an ear (and taste). IMHO
> 
> Also why in the world would you put 200-300 watts on a 750 watt RMS woofer? What did you expect?


The specs on the JL10W6v2 now says 600 and shows a chart that says it ranges from 150 to about 800, but the older chart (still on JL's website showing all the subs at once shows what it did when I bought it and the power range is from 100 to about 550 with optimum in the 300 range. Not my fault JL has changed their specs. I have always built all my own boxes and I usually call the manufacturer before building to verify box size based on sq preferences.


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## betterbelizeit (Oct 4, 2009)

zpaguy said:


> I have to assume you had ported enclosures? I tell you what, with an SUV why not just drop in a 13w7 Prowedge? It weighs less than 100lbs and with 1000w RMS + will knock your socks off.... I am currently running a 12w7 Prowedge in my Honda Accord and love it!


Correct...it was ported. I'll loook into the prowedge and see where to go from there. Thanks!


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

betterbelizeit said:


> Correct...it was ported. I'll loook into the prowedge and see where to go from there. Thanks!


So what direction did you go?


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## AboveAK (Mar 3, 2009)

I might as well say something too...I've ran lots of drivers through the years in various types of enclosures. The JL w7 and w6 were my favorite for along time far as SQ and SPL. In fact i still like JL and i did install there stealthbox in my crew cab not because of what i wanted but because it was easy till i could tear my truck apart and put in something else.

Looking at just the w7 though, i wouldn't ever select it again for an install. Price not being the issue. I've used all types of enclosures for it. JL's HO, sealed, and my own custom enclosures.

This is all subjective of course and i can't say one is better than the other factually but musically to my ears the transient response, low end, and overall detail through its bandwidth wasn't as good as the SSA Icon. 

The only downside was the JL's are far more pretty to look at. I'd rather have perfomance than cosmetic any day. Anyway just thought i'd say a little something coming from the ex-JL boner club


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## HK_M3 (Sep 12, 2009)

For SQ it doesn't get much better than the W6v2....I prefer it to the sound of the W7


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