# Power Conditioners



## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

Who has one? WHen do you use one?

I have an "okay" setup, but am looking into these power conditioners as they are supposed to be better than just a normal surge protector.

Any thing I should read or understand?


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## Fiercetimbo17 (May 17, 2007)

they are kinda the capacitors of home audio..


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

I don't know enough about them. I seen them on a couple people's HT setups. What breaker box suggestions do you reccomend?


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## seagrasser (Feb 6, 2007)

I like the automation aspect of them (being able to turn on amplifiers using a remote trigger), and I do think that they offer some positives to the filtering at the line level (amps seems less noisier.....though the benefits, if any, are almost subliminal in nature).

The surge protection is what you are really looking for. Not only how much, but how fast it can implement it.

I really like the panamax products and recommend them.


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

I have used power conditioners for about 12 years now and they can definitely be of help. However, it helps to know their limitations. Unless you can really afford to spend a lot on one, and I really mean a lot, they will be somewhat limited in their capabilities, but are still quite useful.
Better ones can and do improve video (contrast, color depth, noise, etc.) and will help moderately in making your audio source units sound a bit better, and provide modest improvements for other low amerage items as well. Just don't count on plugging anything into them that requires a considerable amount of wattage, such as amps, receivers, subs, and powered speakers, etc. Only the very high end units are built with capailities to handle such power requirements without clipping the power to the connected items, despite what the manufacturers claim.
I would recommend companies such as Panamax and Monster cable, but only up to a point. Unless you really want or need some of their special features, or a lot of extra plugs, I wouldn't spend more than about $200-300 on one. Do some extensive web searches regarding any model you might be interested in and learn to tell the bs from the facts. Oh yeah, and they can filter out power spikes as well, so that is another plus. I have used both less expensive ($100-200) Panamax and Monster Cable units and ($500+) units and have found the expensive ones to be virtually no better than their cheaper models for the most part.
That being said I currently have an audiophile power conditioner, with which I also use special power cords, and what each of them on their own can do is absolutely amazing, but you'ld have to be prepared to sell your soul to afford them. I can actually plug my entire system into it (I use about 10 of 12 plugs on it), including powered front speakers, and it never falters.
Also, the better manufacturers actually use video testing to determine the usefulness of their parts as it is a more reliable method than listening tests, as listening results can be a bit subjective.


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

Monster what ever

Panamax is good

APC ftw

APC Product Information for Audio-Video Solutions


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## Steak (Mar 16, 2006)

s10scooter said:


> Who has one? WHen do you use one?
> 
> I have an "okay" setup, but am looking into these power conditioners as they are supposed to be better than just a normal surge protector.
> 
> Any thing I should read or understand?


Twice a week, after the power shampooooo :laugh:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Not at home, I DO have whole house suppressors on the house and shop much like the ones posted earlier. 

Live, I do simple surge suppression and/or voltage stabilization. When running digital consoles I go full hilt and use a UPS rig.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Auto Dupe Feature


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

As you can see there are many interpretations regarding how effective, or useful, power conditioners are. 
My best recommendation, would be to try demoing some units, if at all possible, and do some video comparisons, as these are the easiest to accurately notice. Make sure you get units that will allow you to not only plug in the tv and other general low to medium wattage items, but also allow you to connect your cable/satellite run through it.
Watch all your video sources beforehand, so that you are accustomed to their appearance, and then carefully watch them after adding the unit. If the pc is any good at all you should see a significant improvement in the quality of your video. I have had to readjust various video settings afterwards to accommodate some of the changes.
Do the same thing for all your audio sources and listen carefully for any changes/improvements. This is where it is a bit trickier because people are definitely more subjective regarding audio results. You won't generally hear any day and night differences, but you may definitely hear some significant differences depending upon your listening tastes and what you are accustomed to. Also, I would say that better equipment will usually begat better results, as the user will probably be a bit more attuned to critical listening. Not that others won't notice the difference, but they may just notice it without realizing that it is actually an improvement, so to speak.
As far as actual surge suppression, as someone stated earlier, the actual circuit switching time is very critical here, as if it is not fast enough your equipment can still get fried, if your home circuits get hit by a lightning strike or other system surge. I don't recall if there is an actual recommended switching time for this, but you might find it by doing a web search. I don’t think most manufacturers are very specific about this.
Bottom line: There are decent manufactures out there, but there is also a lot of snake oil as well, since so many manufactures have jumped on this money wagon. Just look at the ridiculous number of products that some manufacturers make. It's no wonder many people are so skeptical about these.
But check out sites like AVS Forum, etc., and search them for threads on 'power conditioners'.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

With lightning strikes.......

You are dealing with a bolt of electricity with enough vengeance to jump from a couple miles in the sky to the ground, a surge suppressor or conditioner ain't gonna do squat even IF the device survives the EMP.

THERE ARE some forms of lightning protection, my surge suppression does have gas discharge units in them as does my lightning suppression for my antennas on my tower, but these work marginally at best and can protect from a close strike bit NEVER a direct hit.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

duped again


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

I'm simply going by information I have seen reported from personal experiences with suppressors of the type that I now have. They have reported successful operation of their suppressors during such strikes and surges, in which not only their general equipment survived, but also their suppressors. Now that may not be the typical case, depending upon what type of surge or strike someone receives, but I will have to take their word for it for now, as I personally don't plan on testing it on mine.
My particular unit has a high speed magnetic circuit, with a closing speed of better than 1 nanosecond. If that is not enough, oh well!
As for its other general qualities, the one I have is used by the likes of mastering specialist Steve Hoffman and in the CBS audiophile listening room, which is exceptionally highly regarded, among others.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Q-Authority said:


> As for its other general qualities, the one I have is used by the likes of mastering specialist Steve Hoffman and in the CBS audiophile listening room, which is exceptionally highly regarded, among others.


Steve lost credit.... right... about... here.....

Google Image Result for http://www.shakti-innovations.com/images/Hoffman-pic-1.jpg


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

chad said:


> Steve lost credit.... right... about... here.....
> 
> Google Image Result for http://www.shakti-innovations.com/images/Hoffman-pic-1.jpg


Ha, ha, ha, ha!:laugh: Yeah, I can see where you're coming from on that aspect, although I can roughly see how they could be of actual use simply because of their refractional capabilities. However, I personally will stick with other more practical methods for now, until I win the lottery and just want to spend money, for the sake of spending it.


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> More likely than a lightning strike is something like a transformer or pole top breaker malfunction in my experience. Those can have some nasty effects but they don't touch a lightning strike.
> 
> Last lightning strike I was involved in absolutely destroyed the substation it hit. Burned a hole right through a big 13.6 breaker panel like it was made of paper. Not much hope for home audio stuff in a similar situation.


I would certainly agree with you on those terms, but thankfully that direct a hit and its type of destruction is relatively rare.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Well there ARE ways to protect, that was my job for a long time, in fact it was nothing for my towers in broadcast to get hit "rapid-fire" during a storm. My homehas been hit with no loss whatsoever as my Ham tower has been hit, the number one trick is:

What you can't get to ground at as close to the speed of light as possible you need to let ride and RAISE/LOWER the potential TO EVERYTHING to allow the gear to float it out, it's the difference in potential that kills the gear and starts fires, floating the remainder of the hit up or down from ground is the only way to survive. 

just like being a tech with one hand in your pocket, you can hang on to 500V all day long, because you are AT the 500V potential, like birds on a wire, but as soon as you get potential and current is generated the excitement ensues.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

dupe feature


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

chad said:


> Well there ARE ways to protect, that was my job for a long time, in fact it was nothing for my towers in broadcast to get hit "rapid-fire" during a storm. My homehas been hit with no loss whatsoever as my Ham tower has been hit, the number one trick is:
> 
> What you can't get to ground at as close to the speed of light as possible you need to let ride and RAISE/LOWER the potential TO EVERYTHING to allow the gear to float it out, it's the difference in potential that kills the gear and starts fires, floating the remainder of the hit up or down from ground is the only way to survive.
> 
> just like being a tech with one hand in your pocket, you can hang on to 500V all day long, because you are AT the 500V potential, like birds on a wire, but as soon as you get potential and current is generated the excitement ensues.


Okay, we're intersted, so now how do you do that for the home?

And what is with those annoying "Dupe Feature" posts of yours?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

For some reason my account likes to make duplicate posts, if it does it with this one I'll leave it 

The lightning protection thing is aq LONG drawn out process that would more than consume this thread.

BUT your main goal is to get as much sunk inot ground as quickly as possible over the most amount of area you can, a ground rod ain't gonna do nothing but ment, a radial system is best to maximize surface area, you wanna thump the ground not try to drill a hole in it, the more surface area you can attain the more you can sink into the ground, therefore that's less voltage you have to make up fr in your system rise. Ideally you want your rise to be at or just above your gas-tube clamp voltage then float up from there.

Kinda maybe see what I'm saying?


Increasing my ground surface area also helps out with the transmission of RF as it loweres the angle of radiation and can increase prorogation by not letting the ground absorb the RF signal bbut rather make it become a rather wonderful reflector.

Chad


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

For some reason my account likes to make duplicate posts, if it does it with this one I'll leave it 

The lightning protection thing is aq LONG drawn out process that would more than consume this thread.

BUT your main goal is to get as much sunk inot ground as quickly as possible over the most amount of area you can, a ground rod ain't gonna do nothing but ment, a radial system is best to maximize surface area, you wanna thump the ground not try to drill a hole in it, the more surface area you can attain the more you can sink into the ground, therefore that's less voltage you have to make up fr in your system rise. Ideally you want your rise to be at or just above your gas-tube clamp voltage then float up from there.

Kinda maybe see what I'm saying?


Increasing my ground surface area also helps out with the transmission of RF as it loweres the angle of radiation and can increase prorogation by not letting the ground absorb the RF signal bbut rather make it become a rather wonderful reflector.

Chad


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

annoying ain't it?


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

I'm running the cheapo Belkin pureav. Got it for $80 or so last year.

Amazon.com: BELKIN AP20800FC08-BLK 8-Outlet, PF30 Home Theater Power Console: Electronics


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

chad said:


> annoying ain't it?


Oh, you got the annoying part down, alright!

Yeah, sure, I understand the surface area bit, more or less. Maybe that's why some people prefer hollow ground pipes, instead of solid ones.
And I think my prorogated angle of reflection may be why I have to use viagra!:surprised:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Q-Authority said:


> Yeah, sure, I understand the surface area bit, more or less. Maybe that's why some people prefer hollow ground pipes, instead of solid ones.


Here comes a can of worms about to be opened.....

Audiophioles swear by Skin Effect claiming that audio signals only travel down the skin of the wire, when in fact they could not be farther from the truth because the frequency at which the wore is utilized is WAY PLENTY low for complete conductor penetration. BUT... Skin effect does indeed exist in RF and especially in lightning protection (no so in "safety grounding" where solid is still king)

Most of my grounding in my ham shack is copper strapping, strapping does VERY well for getting lightning moving around and as an RF ground also. Braid works well, followed by copper pipe. Solid/stranded wire is the worst for RF and lightning grounds.

Ahh, the complicated world of grounding, and you thought car audio was bad


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## D1g1tal V3n0m (Dec 24, 2008)

I run a Panamax 5400-EX on my stuff at the house. Was at a Best Buy that had a open box unit that had never been plugged in. I ended up paying 1/3 of the price for it. I had a PS Audio Duet but ended up selling it for more then I paid.


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## DaleCarter (Jan 3, 2008)

chad said:


> Steve lost credit.... right... about... here.....
> 
> Google Image Result for http://www.shakti-innovations.com/images/Hoffman-pic-1.jpg


Is it as bad as the Shakti Stones that reduce electromagnetic intereference. 

Dude THEY ARE FEKKIN' ROCKS!!!  (CORRECTION - they are not rocks, but some kind of magnetic absorber. Oh, hell that makes sense then )

From Hoff's site, first paragraph A pair of SHAKTI STONES appeared on my doorstep today... [Archive] - SH Forums


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## DaleCarter (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh it gets better. Not only will your audio sound better, but video will have higher resolution (more lines???) and your engine will make more horsepower!!!

From - audio/video

Placement on automotive CPUs has measurably increased engine horsepower. It also improves resolution for virtually all-major components in high definition audio/video systems. 




GREAT!! Now I'm going to be late for dinner. Can't drive becaseu I am laughing so hard.


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

You think those are funny?! Those aren't funny!

You want funny, check out the Denon AKDL1 Dedicated Link Cable and the several hundred reviews, virtually all spoofed, regarding it on Amazon.com, at Amazon.com: Denon AKDL1 Dedicated Link Cable: Electronics. It's basically a shielded Cat5 cable at a moon rock price.  A huge number of peolple have put a lot of time and effort into their comments and I spent a day or two going over most of them, when I first discovered it. Many are absolutely priceless, even more so as I just happened to be looking for an improved version of the oem denon-link for my system at the time I found it.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Check out 6moons website, I it makes me bipolar, Ilaugh and cry and get angry... all at once.


Voicing cable ain't easy mang


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Check out 6moons website, I it makes me bipolar, Ilaugh and cry and get angry... all at once.


Voicing cable ain't easy mang


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## DaleCarter (Jan 3, 2008)

I asked a friend in the recording biz (a REAL stuido with mics and little blinky light thingies) why reputable studios and engineers would even let a Shakti product into their building. His response was that guys like Hoff use the "esoteric voodoo" effect to help noobs think they are gurus and that studios have it in their inventory because suckers ask for it.

Being a musician and knowing other musicians as well as I do, I can totally see it. "Dude, my drums/amp/vocal/rig/keys/butt trumpet sounded killer and the engineer showed me all these tricked out magnets and cables that he said made it sound more open and airy, but still kick your ass. He's a fekkin Wizard, man!". 

Never heard something like that before, have you Chad?


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## DaleCarter (Jan 3, 2008)

6 Moons.... OMG!

The FuruTech carbon fiber wall plate covers and cable ends are pretty damned cool looking

FURUTECH

Carbon AND Stainless Edison plugs FTW!!

FURUTECH


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I grabbed a used conditioner off ebay for a friend of mine IIRC it was 150 new or something. Anyway this guy beats on his system. He says it goes louder he can turn it up about 4 more on his volume. He is running a 5.1, a stereo amp, and a sub amp. Yes it is more like a bar in there than SQ, it pounds. Don't know about video he has a dish, he wanted it more for power conditioning and it seems to work well for that. He has run a single 20A line for it but figures he needs another. The voltage will drop a little at full tilt. He might have four amps I am not sure some times he turns one off. The rack of stuff for audio is over my head, including 3 of those disk changers that hold 300 CDs or whatever. He just likes more stuff. This one shows lights for voltage and I think amperage? I forget that was last year.

Chad don't forget most all cell towers are grounded with solid wire, maybe 1ga I'd have to look it up. Yes a ground plane will help transmission.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

sqshoestring said:


> Chad don't forget most all cell towers are grounded with solid wire, maybe 1ga I'd have to look it up. Yes a ground plane will help transmission.


It would be better to ground it with a braid, much like a lightning rod. Don't need squat for a ground plane for a cell-tower tho  Freq is up there enough that a 6" long radial will do the trick. I think I'm running a foot long radial at 430 Meg, it may be less for 430 though since it's also a 144Meg antenna and they have to serve for that band too. Don't feel like busting out the wavelength calc :blush:


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Yeah all that stuff is sized for frequency. I worked with PCS that is all 1800-1900Mhz, the old analog is now digital 800-900. I think only Nextel has odd frequencies. We used 1 5/8 coax unless it was a short mount maybe under 100' high. You know some guy wrote up the tower plans/specs and that is why they are all that way (co. policy)...hard to say if it is the best way, we used to laugh about it. One issue might be durability, the solid wire was better that way and was galvanized too just like the tower. It will be a long time before anyone needs to touch one of those towers for maintenance. We were using these last time I was doing that job DAPA Communications Homepage I did a lot of propagation, that was fun. There was at the time a free tool on the net that worked pretty nice, it was close to the very expensive one we had.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I've come across many 100+ year old homes and barns that have had the lightning rod copper braid intact and functional


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

It was company policy, maybe they were worried about the people running around in there. You get 4 carriers on a tower and who knows who will be messing around in there and climbing on the tower. Some of those climbers were something I'll tell you. They would weld the wire to the tower with this weld stuff, it was like putty with magnesium or something in it. Just pack it on there and light it, was pretty cool burned kind of like a flare.


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

sqshoestring: Did your friend install the power conditioner at the same time as he upgraded to the 20 amp line? I have heard many times of significant improvement by just running dedicated power lines, as it appears he has done, and this would seem to be a more likely candidate for the immense improvement for a unit of that price range (not to say it is impossible though).

Additionally, was the unit he installed really a power conditioner or surge protector, as from what I have seen it is near impossible to run even single large to medium amps through a true power conditioner without their power getting clipped significantly (not to say it can't happen though, I suppose)?


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

He had the power line in, just plugged this in. I will dig and see if I can find the model of it. He must have about less than 40' of wire to the breaker box. I suppose the amp could have gone higher volume because it had less power, though that is the opposite of what it is supposed to do. We didn't have a db meter.


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## Vestax (Aug 16, 2005)

I was in store for a power conditioner and ran into this on Audioholics: APC H15 I was hoping somebody could comment on that piece.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

It was this Belkin: Belkin PureAV AP3080010 Surge Protector belkin ap30800-10
Think I paid $80 shipped used or something like that. Did have a few scratches but nothing major. Oh it was missing that little door in the front you plug stuff into.


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

sqshoestring said:


> It was this Belkin: Belkin PureAV AP3080010 Surge Protector belkin ap30800-10
> Think I paid $80 shipped used or something like that. Did have a few scratches but nothing major. Oh it was missing that little door in the front you plug stuff into.


Thanks for the info. I looked it up and found that it is more of a battery back-up type surge protector, and not so much a true power conditioner. I say it is not so much a true power conditioner because it does not do so in the normal use of the term (at least in the way that it is usually bandied about). It only provides power conditioning in the sense that it provides a somewhat more stable voltage (in at least a couple of ways), but it does not necessarily eliminate or have any effect upon such things as emi, which can creep in on power lines or can be disbursed from other sources nearby, such as other audio/video components and their higher voltage connections.
The fact that it does stabilize voltage to a degree may well be what helped and provided the apparent volume stabilization improvements. If one lives in an area that experiences significant sagging voltage issues, then it would probably be a decent addition, plus it also provides surge protection.
Overall, it sounds like it would probably provide easier to notice improvements than the more traditional power conditioners, at least audio wise. It is also a lot cheaper than many of the more traditional heavy duty voltage stabilizers.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Belkin : Belkin PureAV™ Home Theater Battery Backup with AVR Technology

Think that is it. I don't know a lot about them, just what he showed me. I questioned him when he ask me to look for one....happened to see it and got it for him.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

You guys are aware that computer UPSs have equivalent technology and cost half the price right?


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## Q-Authority (Mar 31, 2008)

chad said:


> You guys are aware that computer UPSs have equivalent technology and cost half the price right?


I would suppose that very much depends upon just how big of a voltge sag the particular unit is designed to deal with and just how fast it can handle a large sag. I would generally assume that computer related items would not be designed to handle the same power demands as one for audio/video equipment. And that is probably why the high end audio related devices cost so much. Of course then you're getting into subjective quantifications a bit again.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

You just said that they **** out when you run them with big amps, and considering a gamer machine can have a 500W supply EASY.........


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