# What is the Car Audio Equivelant of a home audio power conditioner?



## Libertyguy20 (Jun 6, 2012)

The subject says it all

Would it be some kind of regulated power supply (ie, R.I.P.S.), or a higher quality battery and/or alternator, or none of the above?


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

A capacitor.


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

trumpet said:


> A capacitor.


That's debatable and not even going to start going down that path... Having a good solid electrical system will probably suffice..

Cap discussion


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

A cap will act as a highpass filter in parallel. That's a fact and one of the two reasons you install a cap. The other reason would be to keep headlights from dimming since the cap wants to maintain the highest amount of voltage (the alternator) it's fed with. But I agree, it's not really needed, lot of people use them for the wrong reasons.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

AccordUno said:


> That's debatable and not even going to start going down that path... Having a good solid electrical system will probably suffice..
> 
> Cap discussion


It not really open for debating, caps are used in home audio to filter/condition the power line. Same thing as the bank of caps in your power supply of your car amp. Sure we can debate the practicality of using another one since amps have them in them already. But his answer is correct for the question asked.


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

I'll use a cap as a filter to filter out the noise.... Which needs to be calculated properly....


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Libertyguy20 said:


> The subject says it all
> 
> Would it be some kind of regulated power supply (ie, R.I.P.S.), or a higher quality battery and/or alternator, or none of the above?


big bottle of snake oil 

those home audio "power conditioners" are just fancy talk for "power strip" they might cost alot and have alot of dials and lights. but they do nearly nothing.

an amplifier in a car already has a good supply of DC, there is not much you need to condition, if everything is installed correctly.

if you have an amplifier that is a tightly regulated P/S that might help some.


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## Darth SQ (Sep 17, 2010)

minbari said:


> big bottle of snake oil
> 
> those home audio "power conditioners" are just fancy talk for "power strip" they might cost alot and have alot of dials and lights. but they do nearly nothing.
> 
> ...


Absolutely love the new avatar pic Min.

"The Shadows"

One of the best SciFi evil alien races of all time.

Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> Absolutely love the new avatar pic Min.
> 
> "The Shadows"
> 
> ...


Love B5


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

BeatsDownLow said:


> It not really open for debating, caps are used in home audio to filter/condition the power line. Same thing as the bank of caps in your power supply of your car amp. Sure we can debate the practicality of using another one since amps have them in them already. But his answer is correct for the question asked.


I understand that it's used in Home Audio, we are talking about car audio, the question was do we have something similar, yes and no. In home audio you don't have a battery, while in car audio you do. 

Okay, so if the cap is the solution then calculate the # & size of caps needed. So how many competitors these days use caps vs adding additional batteries? 

once again, it's debatable and not sure if we need another thread about if caps work or don't work as it's been hashed out here and other car audio forums for several years now.


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## Libertyguy20 (Jun 6, 2012)

My furman home audio power conditioner was very much needed due to how messed up the electrical is in my home. Voltage spikes and drops oddly. Home built in 60, and original owner was a "master" electrition. Now the voltage is protected, regulated, will shut off if in dangerous levels, has reserve power for audio demands if needed, and cleans up the electrical signal vs plugging into a wall.

So actually mini, its quite needed for some of us, as I don't want my home receiver to blow because I'm watching Prometheus at crazy loud levels, or will be . Also had a pre and post video calibration done by a friend in the business and he said I had many fewer picture artifacts impacting the picture quality after running the furman(sq not too sure), but that is neither here nor there.

I Definately agree on some of those lower end panamax models that one might as well buy a power strip.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

minbari said:


> big bottle of snake oil
> 
> those home audio "power conditioners" are just fancy talk for "power strip" they might cost alot and have alot of dials and lights. but they do nearly nothing.
> 
> ...


100% correct. stupid people buying those 1000 dollars power conditioners when in fact they don`t do much If you want clean electricity for some reason( unnecessary because your equipment power supply does that just fine but if you have more money then common sense then buy always on UPS box, they can be two different types. one switching type, very fast switch to battery feed if current interrupted for a few or few hundred milliseconds( every cheap ups box that is) or second type when output always fed by battery and dc to ac converter. I tested output with oscilloscope- almost ideal sine wave. those are great but costly. 
APC is one of the main manufacturers of these. you can find one on Craigslist really cheap. nothing of that caliber in car audio i`m aware of. your amp power supply does that task with no drama nor additional spending.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Libertyguy20 said:


> My furman home audio power conditioner was very much needed due to how messed up the electrical is in my home. Voltage spikes and drops oddly. Home built in 60, and original owner was a "master" electrition. Now the voltage is protected, regulated, will shut off if in dangerous levels, has reserve power for audio demands if needed, and cleans up the electrical signal vs plugging into a wall.
> 
> So actually mini, its quite needed for some of us, as I don't want my home receiver to blow because I'm watching Prometheus at crazy loud levels, or will be . Also had a pre and post video calibration done by a friend in the business and he said I had many fewer picture artifacts impacting the picture quality after running the furman(sq not too sure), but that is neither here nor there.
> 
> I Definately agree on some of those lower end panamax models that one might as well buy a power strip.


Dont worry about those guys, they obviously have not been around dirty power to actually notice a difference, which is fine, but they are wrong to say they are pointless. 

Furman Elite-15 PFi Linear Filter AC Power Conditioner - Photo Gallery of the Furman Elite-15 PFi Linear Filter AC Power Conditioner

That does not look like any old "power strip" Employs a cap for reducing ripples in current plus a voltage stabilizer. Both lead to clean more consistant power delivery.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Right, I bet you can tell a difference between regular and $1800 power cord.
Futuretech Powerflux: The Most Expensive Power Cable Ever 
power stabilizers actually works, power conditioners doesn`t. Google the difference.furman in your link is a waste of money IMO.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

Libertyguy20 said:


> My furman home audio power conditioner was very much needed due to how messed up the electrical is in my home.


First of all, ignore victor_inox.

Second, I believe you might have noticed a difference, but you should take a closer look at what might be wrong with your amp. The difference between a good amp and a bad amp is that a good amp has a "power conditioner" built into it already.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Victor_inox said:


> Right, I bet you can tell a difference between regular and $1800 power cord.
> Futuretech Powerflux: The Most Expensive Power Cable Ever
> power stabilizers actually works, power conditioners doesn`t. Google the difference.furman in your link is a waste of money IMO.


I never said the furman was deal. I was just using it as an example. So if a cap does not work, why are they there before a power supply in a car amp? Its not for the capacitance to feed the power supply. That would be the same reason a external cap is said not to work, not enough capacitance. So whats the reason then? 

And lets not start to put words in my mouth or assume things about me again, that really didnt get you far before  I am not doing that to you.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

MarkZ said:


> First of all, ignore victor_inox.
> 
> Second, I believe you might have noticed a difference, but you should take a closer look at what might be wrong with your amp. The difference between a good amp and a bad amp is that a good amp has a "power conditioner" built into it already.


first of all **** off, second of all how is your statement contradicts what i was saying.


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

There is dirty AC power and more interface in home audio. Period 
I've lived in an apartment where you could turn on a hairdryer or even microwave and see static-like lines on the tv as well as hear it in audio system. A mid-line monster conditioner fixed the problem. After that I spent years comparing different cables and interconnects. Yes... you can hear a difference in a high end home stereo system. I could go on and on....

Now look at all the AC power cords, speaker cables and interconnects crammed behind a home system. If you think noise rejecting power cable and interconnects don't make a difference you are ignorant. Sorry. 

I do not feel it is needed in speaker cables. You just need efficient conductor there. I'll agree that the crazy elegant pricy cables and conditioners are a waste of money.

As for the original question.... some high end home conditioners simply turn AC signal to DC and back. Basicly DC is void of noise. Sometimes a cap can help. It does have it's place but MOST likely noise in a car can be due to grounding issues or re-routing cables.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I'll give you 1000 dollars if you prove to me that 1000 power cable makes any difference in comparison with regular quality cable. See I put my money where my mouth is.I dare you

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2


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## robert_wrath (Apr 24, 2011)

Watch it there, "regular power cable" may be referred to 16 gauge/3 conductor as oppose to 14/3.


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

BeatsDownLow said:


> It not really open for debating, caps are used in home audio to filter/condition the power line. Same thing as the bank of caps in your power supply of your car amp. Sure we can debate the practicality of using another one since amps have them in them already. But his answer is correct for the question asked.


A capacitor was my first thought, as well.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

robert_wrath said:


> Watch it there, "regular power cable" may be referred to 16 gauge/3 conductor as oppose to 14/3.


regular quality cable. that`s what I said it could be 12/3 and shielded but still cost $20.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

The rail voltage coming off a power supply doesn't vary from moderate fluctuations in the voltage coming in. This is an area heavily explored in amplification, but also in supplying power to electronics. Put simply: Your amp's power supply is a line conditioner.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

AccordUno said:


> I understand that it's used in Home Audio, we are talking about car audio, the question was do we have something similar, yes and no. In home audio you don't have a battery, while in car audio you do.
> 
> Okay, so if the cap is the solution then calculate the # & size of caps needed. So how many competitors these days use caps vs adding additional batteries?
> 
> once again, it's debatable and not sure if we need another thread about if caps work or don't work as it's been hashed out here and other car audio forums for several years now.


Your referring to other threads that are talking about using them to fix a dropping voltage problem. That is not whats up for discussion here.


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

I actually have a few high end power cables that I acquired here and there and I do use them. Do they make audio sound better? NO! But, I do believe AC power cables without proper shielding can interfere with signals of other cables. Mostly analog interconnects without great shielding themselves or at least made with some noise cancelling geometry. 
Something to point out though.... you will NEVER achieve the delicate precise sound in a car that you will in a dedicated home hi-fi system with perfectly placed speakers, proper sound panels, excellent source and speakers costing 10 times the best car audio drivers. So it's really a different game.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Accuvolt


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

gotta love these threads


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Porsche said:


> gotta love these threads


Yeah I HAD to reply just to subscribe for the lols.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bigfastmike said:


> I actually have a few high end power cables that I acquired here and there and I do use them. Do they make audio sound better? NO! But, I do believe AC power cables without proper shielding can interfere with signals of other cables. Mostly analog interconnects without great shielding themselves or at least made with some noise cancelling geometry.
> Something to point out though.... you will NEVER achieve the delicate precise sound in a car that you will in a dedicated home hi-fi system with perfectly placed speakers, proper sound panels, excellent source and speakers costing 10 times the best car audio drivers. So it's really a different game.


exactly right!


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## robert_wrath (Apr 24, 2011)

I have New / Old Stock on a Accuvolt FR 375.


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

chad said:


> Yeah I HAD to reply just to subscribe for the lols.


Pardon me, sir, but around here, we call them "lulz". ;D


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## sirvent_95 (Feb 14, 2011)

minbari said:


> big bottle of snake oil
> 
> those home audio "power conditioners" are just fancy talk for "power strip" they might cost alot and have alot of dials and lights. but they do nearly nothing.
> 
> ...


In the home arena power conditioners are legit. And they get more legit the more you spend. Is the cheapest Monster Power Center gonna help you? Doubtful. But if you have a few grand tied up in your system you'll probably buy a better conditioner than their cheapest. 

As far as car power conditioning goes my experience has been that cheap amps let more noise through and higher quality amps do not. However, even the best amp cannot always filter out serious noise in your system. I've had at least one install in which the cars alternator had a leaking rectifier (possible poor terminology) that was polluting the cars power system with AC noise. No matter what we did to our install the noise was always there.

Power conditioners are traditionally employed in home systems that have been tuned to the ultimate level. We're talking about guys who put foam panels on their walls to limit echos and resonance. Guys who can hear a bird fart in the tree outside usually use good power conditioners. I don't think that you would be able to hear an improvement by using any kind of power conditioning in a vehicle other than a high quality amplifier with a good power supply already built in . 

I think that's why there are no automotive power conditioners.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

sirvent_95 said:


> As far as car power conditioning goes my experience has been that cheap amps let more noise through and higher quality amps do not. However, even the best amp cannot always filter out serious noise in your system. I've had at least one install in which the cars alternator had a leaking rectifier (possible poor terminology) that was polluting the cars power system with AC noise. No matter what we did to our install the noise was always there.


I have first-hand evidence of exactly this. I had my JL Audio XD700.5 on the bench, powered by a cheap (but beefy) ham radio DC power supply, which happens to be VERY noisy, I'm talking like 1/2-volt square wave riding on top of the DC, and sure enough, the little Tang Bands on the bench are hissing and squealing. I would have thought that the XD would have filtered it out, but it doesn't. Now, in my MINI, I have had similar issues that happen, even with just an iPod hooked directly to the amp. The car has a very noisy supply, and my guess is that some of it can only be fixed by presenting it with cleaner power. No amount of gain and grounding changes have fixed it yet. It's pretty quiet, but it's there. IIRC, the JL XD series use an unregulated switching supply, which is probably the culprit. The HD series would probably be immune, as they do regulate (changing amps is out of the question for me at this point). I'll be following up in my build log when I have more time to investigate.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

sirvent_95 said:


> In the home arena power conditioners are legit. And they get more legit the more you spend. Is the cheapest Monster Power Center gonna help you? Doubtful. But if you have a few grand tied up in your system you'll probably buy a better conditioner than their cheapest.


If someone has a few grand tied up in his system, why didn't he buy an amp with a SMPS in it?


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

MarkZ said:


> If someone has a few grand tied up in his system, why didn't he buy an amp with a SMPS in it?


Personally I'm my list of qualities to look for in my home gear SMPS isn't high up there. I got a high end monster conditioner years ago so it's one less concern now.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bigfastmike said:


> Personally I'm my list of qualities to look for in my home gear SMPS isn't high up there. I got a high end monster conditioner years ago so it's one less concern now.


Why isn't it on your list?


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Libertyguy20 said:


> My furman home audio power conditioner was very much needed due to how messed up the electrical is in my home. Voltage spikes and drops oddly. Home built in 60, and original owner was a "master" electrition. Now the voltage is protected, regulated, will shut off if in dangerous levels, has reserve power for audio demands if needed, and cleans up the electrical signal vs plugging into a wall.
> 
> *So actually mini, its quite needed for some of us, as I don't want my home receiver to blow because I'm watching Prometheus at crazy loud levels, or will be . Also had a pre and post video calibration done by a friend in the business and he said I had many fewer picture artifacts impacting the picture quality after running the furman(sq not too sure), but that is neither here nor there.*
> 
> I Definately agree on some of those lower end panamax models that one might as well buy a power strip.



so it regulated spikes? I can get that for a $50-100 isobar and a small ups. I dont need to spend $700 on those crazy expensive conditioners that supposedly help correct 60hz to be more 60hertzier. your power company does a fine job of creating 60hz and it doesnt drift more than 1/2 a hertz on a bad day.

if you get brownouts and spikes within your own house, then fix the wiring for gods sake. a brownout that is not the power companies fault is caused by too much load on too small a wire. this is a fire waiting to happen.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The thing about the high end home speakers is they don't always use high end drivers. There are 20k speakers out there using worse quality speakers than what a lot of guys are running in their cars. But I do know that it costs money to run a low volume business like building home speakers- cabinets, crossovers, marketing, shows, overhead, etc.

I just don't look at price tags as indicators of performance.


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

MarkZ said:


> Why isn't it on your list?


I'm not sure what you are asking. As stated, I have a quality conditioner for all components so why look for an amp that has?


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

MarkZ said:


> If someone has a few grand tied up in his system, why didn't he buy an amp with a SMPS in it?


I wouldn't want an SMPS on an expensive tube amp, just sayin'. I'd love me a good unregulated SET dual 300B design with a sweet set of high efficiency towers. I would be all about putting some power conditioning on it, being unregulated and all, but none of that Monster Cable / audiophile nonsense.


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

thehatedguy said:


> The thing about the high end home speakers is they don't always use high end drivers. There are 20k speakers out there using worse quality speakers than what a lot of guys are running in their cars. But I do know that it costs money to run a low volume business like building home speakers- cabinets, crossovers, marketing, shows, overhead, etc.
> 
> I just don't look at price tags as indicators of performance.


Well duh! Lol. Jk. I think that is one area where DIY car audio has helped me identify better home speakers. I said earlier home and car audio are different games but in that aspect a lot can be learned from the other.


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Your referring to other threads that are talking about using them to fix a dropping voltage problem. That is not whats up for discussion here.


Okay, let's continue this shall we.. What is the purpose of a capacitor in the way you are describing it. Filter or backup power for those deep transients where current draw is higher? 
Decoupling Capacitor

if you read thru that, basically the use if for


> The decoupling capacitor works as the device’s local energy storage


Once again, I reiterate that external caps are BS, you are better off upgrading your wiring and adding a secondary battery as it will help maintain a constant level of voltage and if you have good quality amplifiers. 

BTW, BeatsDownLow so how many Multi-year SQ Champions have secondary batteries vs capacitors, that might shed some light on this discussion. And btw, if caps are all that I got few caps (3 -1/4 farad and 1 farad caps you are welcome to, just pay for shipping), I'll stick to my Kinetik 800 battery instead. 

Also, to throw this into a loop, copper is copper. :laugh:


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

Also, to throw this into a loop, copper is copper. :laugh:[/QUOTE]

Nuh uh. 

But I do agree with the rest of your comments


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

HondAudio said:


> Pardon me, sir, but around here, we call them "lulz". ;D


I had originally typed that, but I had no cat pic on deck and ready to go.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

AccordUno said:


> Okay, let's continue this shall we.. What is the purpose of a capacitor in the way you are describing it. Filter or backup power for those deep transients where current draw is higher?
> Decoupling Capacitor
> 
> if you read thru that, basically the use if for
> ...


Firstly, I dont give a **** what the SQ guys do in their cars. What they do and dont do is not a end to anything. And does not even pertain one bit to the discussion here. If I did, I would run HAT speakers and Mosconi amps since they obviously must be the best since SQ competitors use them 

This thread is not about using an external cap as a storage bank, it is not about decoupling different electronic devices in a circuit. Its is about filtering the incoming power line. Understand that, then go find me some more link thats state something else that we are not even talking about here. 

Once again I will ask, if a external cap is not sufficient for power reserve, what are the caps in your car audio amp there for before the power supply?

Here is some math for you

1 microfarad (μF) = one millionth (10-6) of a farad

There we can clearly see that your amps maybe 6000-20000 uF before the power supply does not amount to **** for current storage. 20000 uf is equal to .02 farad, so if an external cap is not good for current storage, then there is no possible way the INPUT FILTERING CAPS in your amp have any purpose for current storage. So go ahead and tell me what they are there for.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Neil_J said:


> I have first-hand evidence of exactly this. I had my JL Audio XD700.5 on the bench, powered by a cheap (but beefy) ham radio DC power supply, which happens to be VERY noisy, I'm talking like 1/2-volt square wave riding on top of the DC,


What power supply is that so I can avoid it like herpes? Because Ham radio **** is rather sensitive to that.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Neil_J said:


> I wouldn't want an SMPS on an expensive tube amp, just sayin'. I'd love me a good unregulated SET dual 300B design with a sweet set of high efficiency towers. I would be all about putting some power conditioning on it, being unregulated and all, but none of that Monster Cable / audiophile nonsense.


noting cracks me up more than "SET amplifiers" with solid state rectification.


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

BeatsDownLow, the proof in the pudding, so show me an example in a 12v environment where this has worked? I mean you are preaching it so show me. BTW, I have been around for a while and it's not my first rodeo with Car Audio. And we aren't talking internal amplifiers either, we are talking about adding an external capacitor to help clean up noise in the electrical input of an amplifier (once again not the internals of an amplifier).


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

AccordUno said:


> BeatsDownLow, the proof in the pudding, so show me an example in a 12v environment where this has worked? I mean you are preaching it so show me. BTW, I have been around for a while and it's not my first rodeo with Car Audio. And we aren't talking internal amplifiers either, we are talking about adding an external capacitor to help clean up noise in the electrical input of an amplifier (once again not the internals of an amplifier).



You still cant grasp the fact that the OP was asking about filter/conditioning of the line in a car as compared to inside the house. Not current storage. 

If you cant answer the question I ask, move on.

If you could read and comprehend what you read, you can clearly see in the first my first post of mine in this thread, I said it is debatable to use another cap (external cap) as a filtering source because your amp already has it in it (the caps before the power supply)

SO in the end, I think you need a few more rodeos to learn from :laugh:


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I run a cap straight from the output of my alt just to suppress any ripple before it gets to the car. Dunno how well it works, but I had one and upgraded all 12 factory ground and charging points to 4ga...car is known to be electrically noisy.

It was free so why not.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

chad said:


> noting cracks me up more than "SET amplifiers" with solid state rectification.


Nah, I'd use all tubes, probably a 5U4 per channel. Homemade from scratch with love. Softer turnon than a semiconductor diode, and it adds more pretty orange glow.. Mmmm..


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Tubes...mmm


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

chad said:


> What power supply is that so I can avoid it like herpes? Because Ham radio **** is rather sensitive to that.


Tripp Lite PR-60


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Neil_J said:


> Nah, I'd use all tubes, probably a 5U4 per channel. Homemade from scratch with love. Softer turnon than a semiconductor diode, and it adds more pretty orange glow.. Mmmm..


Actually can sag and just sounds better when wound out IMHO.

And 5U4s/direct heated cathodes are just sexier.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

AccordUno said:


> Okay, let's continue this shall we.. What is the purpose of a capacitor in the way you are describing it. Filter or backup power for those deep transients where current draw is higher?
> Decoupling Capacitor
> 
> if you read thru that, basically the use if for


Decoupling capacitors are different from filter/"stiffening" capacitors. They serve different purposes, and are usually on the other side of the transformer. Generally, you need both in an amp.



> Once again, I reiterate that external caps are BS, you are better off upgrading your wiring and adding a secondary battery as it will help maintain a constant level of voltage and if you have good quality amplifiers.


I agree with this, even though I'm a bit of a capacitor advocate in the car. If your amp is that susceptible to issues stemming from the supply voltage, then IMO it's not a good amp (your old school tube amps included ). However, in the car (and usually to a lesser extent in the home...) the rest of the electrical system can be impacted by the amp, so a capacitor often serves the role of reducing effects on headlights, for example. The analogue to this in the home would be to put your lamp on a "stiffening" circuit if it dims with the music.


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## Libertyguy20 (Jun 6, 2012)

minbari said:


> so it regulated spikes? I can get that for a $50-100 isobar and a small ups. I dont need to spend $700 on those crazy expensive conditioners that supposedly help correct 60hz to be more 60hertzier. your power company does a fine job of creating 60hz and it doesnt drift more than 1/2 a hertz on a bad day.
> 
> if you get brownouts and spikes within your own house, then fix the wiring for gods sake. a brownout that is not the power companies fault is caused by too much load on too small a wire. this is a fire waiting to happen.


 
My friend, you would be mistaken to think that due to the voltage drops and boosts in my home that a fire is gonna happen simply due to too much load on a wire. The electrical that I have is made up of a rare combination of breakers, high voltage switches, low voltage switches, and much much more that i am pretty sure you have never even seen in your life. To summerize....it is pretty f_cking crazy. Why do i say all this? Because after hiring 3 different (and well respected) electritions to give me a quote on fixing it or to determine if it is a safety problem, they each, independantly, told me it was not a safety problem, that it wouldn't be worth fixing (apart from a new panel), and that the wiring was so geniously constructed that they have never in their life seen such intricacies. So, fixing the wiring in my house would be a massive expense and not worth it, but that isn't the issue nor reason for my original post....obviously. 

All of that said....back to my point to you earlier. Since I have some rather expensive home audio equippment totalling close to 10k, I'm gonna spend a measily little $450 bucks more (I don't buy at retail prices) to give me a little peace of mind for my rather expensive and beefy amp. Any additional benefits that the power conditioner is giving me is a bonus. I say all this because it is arguably very logical and appropriate that one in my position would and should do the same if they could. 

As it relates to my car, I wasn't sure if there was anything definate that was similar to a home audio power conditioner, and from what it sounds, "yes" and "no". Since my lights are not dimming and my amp isn't ****, I think I'm fine, but was just curious and after being out of the SQ game for 5+ years (i had a cap in my old comp. system). 

The home audio industry is really where the quality levels of products have increased IMHO over the past 5+ years and the mobile industry has *mostly* produced cheaper products that are more attractive to consumers since mobile audio has dipped in its popularity compared to before.


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

I gotta agree with adding a second battery if you're going with the batshit clean power approach. Getting a new source of clean power seems more logical than trying to filter dirty power (garbags in, garbage out, etc). A lot of the IASCA and MECA pros have used them, and also the Magic Bus, IIRC. Jon used one of those marine disconnects like you buy at the boat shop.. I beleive it is in parallel with the main charging system, with the ability to disconnect it so the amps and HU are hooked directly and exclusively to the second battery (correct me if I got that wrong).


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

> They serve different purposes, and are usually on the other side of the transformer. Generally, you need both in an amp.


In an amp, not external.

BLD, I know exactly what the OP was asking, someone mention caps, I said it was debatable, you continue to say that it works, ok, show me an example. show me a car that needed this, where the results prove that they work.

Sure everyone rushed out to get caps back in the day because winning Comp Cars had them and Richard Clark among other were pushing it (BTW, Autosound 2000 was selling them). The thing is, were talking Car Audio here and not Home. none of the caps being sold are sold as "filtering caps". Now if you would have said, modify your amps to include quality caps or something to that nature (modifying the internals of the amp), then sure you statements would be valid, from the get go, but you didn't. I stated External caps where BS. So here we are. Shall we continue down this rabbit hole?


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## Neil_J (Mar 2, 2011)

Libertyguy20 said:


> The home audio industry is really where the quality levels of products have increased IMHO over the past 5+ years and the mobile industry has *mostly* produced cheaper products that are more attractive to consumers since mobile audio has dipped in its popularity compared to before.


There's not that much reason to go the batshit home audio approach in a car, with the nearfield environment, reflections, unequal path lengths, rattly panels, and road noise. No need for silver wire when the acoustics are what they are. Apples and oranges. People like me that do take the batshit approach in the car probably won't ever reap what was put in, labor and cost wise.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Libertyguy20 said:


> My friend, you would be mistaken to think that due to the voltage drops and boosts in my home that a fire is gonna happen simply due to too much load on a wire. The electrical that I have is made up of a rare combination of breakers, high voltage switches, low voltage switches, and much much more that i am pretty sure you have never even seen in your life. To summerize....it is pretty f_cking crazy. Why do i say all this? Because after hiring 3 different (and well respected) electritions to give me a quote on fixing it or to determine if it is a safety problem, they each, independantly, told me it was not a safety problem, that it wouldn't be worth fixing (apart from a new panel), and that the wiring was so geniously constructed that they have never in their life seen such intricacies. So, fixing the wiring in my house would be a massive expense and not worth it, but that isn't the issue nor reason for my original post....obviously.
> 
> All of that said....back to my point to you earlier. Since I have some rather expensive home audio equippment totalling close to 10k, I'm gonna spend a measily little $450 bucks more (I don't buy at retail prices) to give me a little peace of mind for my rather expensive and beefy amp. Any additional benefits that the power conditioner is giving me is a bonus. I say all this because it is arguably very logical and appropriate that one in my position would and should do the same if they could.
> 
> ...


First off, correct, and even with a new panel the problem may still exist depending on the wiring in your neighborhood and the sizing of the service transformer/mains feed. Power factor correction also plays a role here.

Second off, for 450 bucks you are not getting sinusoidal REGULATION that is substantial enough for a "beefy amp" you can have over-voltage quenching, transient supression, and RFI supression, but for that much but you sure ain't getting full out regulation. Unless your idea of my idea of "beefy amp" differ greatly.

Translation, your amp still sees low voltage conditions. IF it is regulating then it is current starving at that price point.


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

I'd have to say home audio is just as susceptible to mass market consumer products as the car audio is. My proof is the proliferation of HTIB systems.

You may have spent $10,000 on your home audio but some people have spent just as much on their car systems. It's not a matter of how much you spent. That's HiFi voodooism working its way into your system and is only one step away from spiking your speakers and using ceramic speaker wire elevators.

You could probably have done a better job of isolating noise and surges by running a full sine wave UPS than a fancy line power conditioner because this is 100% isolation from your power lines. A conditioner isn't, my first clue that power conditioners might be voodoo is that Monster Audio makes one.

Oh yeah and the way your equipment works a lot was probably made with regulated switching power supplies which already isolates all the sensitive electronics from power spikes. So much so that a lot of the stuff in my home theater can run on anywhere from 90-240 VAC from 50-60 hz. A lot of HiFi now is made for a world market and for efficiency reasons it makes sense to use regulated switching power supplies just for the ability to run nearly any power available worldwide, regulation, power filtering and lighter weight are an added benefit to using these also.

So if all your components are already well regulated why would you need to "condition" the power to begin with. All you need to do to protect your equipment is protect from surges with a good surge protector.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

AccordUno said:


> In an amp, not external.
> 
> BLD, I know exactly what the OP was asking, someone mention caps, I said it was debatable, you continue to say that it works, ok, show me an example. show me a car that needed this, where the results prove that they work.
> 
> Sure everyone rushed out to get caps back in the day because winning Comp Cars had them and Richard Clark among other were pushing it (BTW, Autosound 2000 was selling them). The thing is, were talking Car Audio here and not Home. none of the caps being sold are sold as "filtering caps". Now if you would have said, modify your amps to include quality caps or something to that nature (modifying the internals of the amp), then sure you statements would be valid, from the get go, but you didn't. I stated External caps where BS. So here we are. Shall we continue down this rabbit hole?


 If a battery was all that is needed to filter it out, the amps wouldnt have them in it, plain and simple. Look at the power and ground inputs of a amps. Where does it run? It usually runs to the fuse first (if its fused on the amp, hence usually), then directly to a series of small caps. 

I have said 3 times now that it could be debatable about putting another one inline since the amps have them before the torrids. I am done repeating myself to you.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

BeatsDownLow said:


> If a battery was all that is needed to filter it out, the amps wouldnt have them in it, plain and simple. Look at the power and ground inputs of a amps. Where does it run? It usually runs to the fuse first (if its fused on the amp, hence usually), then directly to a series of small caps.


In all fairness they very much act as low pass filters to keep the switching hash from the power supply FETs out of the rest of the electrical system.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

AccordUno said:


> In an amp, not external.
> 
> BLD, I know exactly what the OP was asking, someone mention caps, I said it was debatable, you continue to say that it works, ok, show me an example. show me a car that needed this, where the results prove that they work.


 It works to reduce dimming all the time. Dozens of people in this forum have reported this, let alone other forums. It's pretty easy to understand why this would be the case, and to get an idea for the situations where it might be useful in this role.

But if we're talking about it reducing noise, or making your amp do something it couldn't do before, ... well, that's a lot less likely. Even if it did those things, it makes me wonder what was wrong with the amp to begin with where it needed more voltage stabilization than what it, itself, could provide. A good amp is usually designed to be able to operate under a range of voltages, and to filter out noise on the supply line.


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

MarkZ said:


> It works to reduce dimming all the time. Dozens of people in this forum have reported this, let alone other forums. It's pretty easy to understand why this would be the case, and to get an idea for the situations where it might be useful in this role.


Don't be, because that is what I'm saying, not filtering, but more on demand source to handle transients. Hence the reason, why my original post point to the previous discussion on caps and the history of them. But then again, I guess I'm speaking spanish or have something sticking out of my forehead.. 




MarkZ said:


> But if we're talking about it reducing noise, or making your amp do something it couldn't do before, ... well, that's a lot less likely. Even if it did those things, it makes me wonder what was wrong with the amp to begin with where it needed more voltage stabilization than what it, itself, could provide. A good amp is usually designed to be able to operate under a range of voltages, and to filter out noise on the supply line.


Agreed, a good amp.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Okay gentelmen, so what would be the ideal setup or configuration in a car (if I want to go batshit) to create a clean/filtered/noise-free power supply to my amps, source units, processors, etc? ...without being too impractical.

For the above, I'm not concerned for the moment with low-voltage dips/using a capacitor to remedy dimming headlights, but if it is an added bonus of the total system, that's a plus.

???


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

don't run your car, don't turn your headlights on, and toss a decent power supply in parallel with the battery like an iota, etc.

Done.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

bbfoto said:


> Okay gentelmen, so what would be the ideal setup or configuration in a car (if I want to go batshit) to create a clean/filtered/noise-free power supply to my amps, source units, processors, etc? ...without being too impractical.


Buy equipment that has a proven track record of reliability and noise performance.


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## Libertyguy20 (Jun 6, 2012)

qwertydude said:


> I'd have to say home audio is just as susceptible to mass market consumer products as the car audio is. My proof is the proliferation of HTIB systems.
> 
> You may have spent $10,000 on your home audio but some people have spent just as much on their car systems. It's not a matter of how much you spent. That's HiFi voodooism working its way into your system and is only one step away from spiking your speakers and using ceramic speaker wire elevators.
> 
> ...


I totally agree and can relate to the fact that the same figure and way much more could be spent on a car, as my last car had a similar investment. My reason for giving an actual figure was that i didn't buy some base model Best Buy Sony system with an all in one (power/pre-amp/dvd) unit using pushing out a whopping 1000w (peak power of course) and then hook it up to a Furman power conditioner. Perhaps I could have used a cheaper conditioner or something that better regulates the voltage, but I'm quite comfortable and not comlaining...perhaps that is the joy of my ignorance. I'll take my chances on Furman....they don't make **** products, but feel free to disagree

I think MarkZ answered my OP a few posts back in summerizing what most people agree is the answer (ie., there is no equivelancy in mobile audio to a power conditioner) since at best the cap will help with dimming, but not in cleaning up any system noise, since that is the amps responsibility (or lack thereof).


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## qwertydude (Dec 22, 2008)

I thought this little thread is a funny example.

Why I Rail Against Power Conditioners

In particular this post that quotes of another's experience with the magical abilities of a power line conditioner and also a good look into the psychology of the HiFi world.



> I'll take you up on why I rail against power conditioners.... all three rails. hot, neutral and ground...
> 
> Because of morons like the guy that wrote the testimonial right on the front page of PS Audio's site...
> 
> ...


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

Trying. To. 

Ignore. Misinformed. People's. Comments...... 

ugggg! :banghead:



Ha-ha... but as in any long thread there are tidbits of useful information.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Buy equipment that has a proven track record of reliability and noise performance.


Mark, that's way too easy dude!  Let's say I've already done that, but I still want to remedy my vehicles noisy electrical system?

　


chad said:


> don't run your car, don't turn your headlights on, and toss a decent power supply in parallel with the battery like an iota, etc.
> Done.


Okay [email protected],  I said the solution had to be practical, lol. I already do what you suggest when I'm at home in the garage while I'm tuning or just listening using a Cascade Audio/iota APS-75 connected to the battery. 

So what if I'm driving, at night (need headlights on), I have a vehicle with a very noisy electrical system, and I don't want to replace any of my existing gear?

The large Accuvolts are no longer in production. Same goes for the U.S. Amps "Optimizer"...hmmm...looks familiar, wonder why? 










so...

Harrison Labs Flux-Cap? FluxCap tm 100 Amp Step-up Power Supply | eBay


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

I love "gigasmic and gratifying experience." that`s signature worthy.
I`d also have gigasmic and gratifying experience. if i spent 2300 dollars on power conditioner.If it cost that much it must work wonders, isn`t it.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

bbfoto said:


> Mark, that's way too easy dude!  Let's say I've already done that, but I still want to remedy my vehicles noisy electrical system?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually that US amp thingy looks like it should work. 
Usually if something no longer in production means that it was not selling well what usually means that it was bull **** anyway.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

That US Amps thing looks like an amplifier power supply. I like to buy amps that already have them in it. 

It seems pointless to me to stick a SMPS in series with a SMPS, unless you're trying really hard to keep hash from entering your amplifier through induction. That's a very uncommon source of noise, IMO.

But **** dude, you could put one of those things in your headlight circuit and probably never get dimming again.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> That US Amps thing looks like an amplifier power supply. I like to buy amps that already have them in it.


Yep, that was kind of my point of posting the photo, and the "looks familiar...wonder why?" comment.


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## Woosey (Feb 2, 2011)

Why not buy a 12 to 110v power inverter, connect a nice highest end power conditioner to it, then a big 110 to 13.8v powersupply and let the amps work with some kleen powah?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> But **** dude, you could put one of those things in your headlight circuit and probably never get dimming again.


Fuken-A


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> But **** dude, you could put one of those things in your headlight circuit and probably never get dimming again.





chad said:


> Fuken-A


lulz. Sorry no obligatory cat photo handy, either.


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