# Car Audio Tuning Basics help...



## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Hi all - new DIYMA user here. I recently installed a Rockford Fosgate DSR1 and an Alpine XD600/6v2 amp in my 2018 Dodge Challenger. Everything works as expected and I've done some basic "by ear" tuning, but I want to explore some of the more "technical" and "proper" ways to tune.

Since the DSR1 is controlled from a mobile device, I'm trying to stick with the "mobie device" tools in order to get a baseline tune and then adjust for preference from there. 

I have the Dayton Audio IMM-6 mic (and calibrated using the calibration file for it's serial number) and purchased the Android AudioTool app. I have my crossovers set (properly or not is up for debate!). 

I have a 6-speaker system (do NOT want subs in the trunk, but have an under-the-seat sub on the way to help a little with lower bass):

- (2) 3.5" Infinity Reference speakers in the dash (2-way speakers)
- (2) 6"x9" Infinity Reference speakers in the doors (2-way speakers, but using them for bass only at this point)
- (2) 6.5" Infinity Reference speakers in the rear-deck (2-way speakers)

Currently, I have the crossovers for the door speakers set to a LP of 450hz and the dash speakers set to a HP of 450hz (24db Linkwitz Riley). I've been experimenting with the crossovers for the rear-deck speakers and a bandpass of 60hz->500hz seems to sound the best - but honestly, I'm not sure if I should technically have them play mid/highs as well or not. I've tried 60-5000, 60-7000, etc - but it seems to 'spoil" the front-stange sound when I use it for the higher frequencies. But honestly, I'm not worried about the rear-deck speakers for now - so I don't want to waste too much time on those here. Right now, getting the front stage setup properly is what I want to work on.

*I'm trying to unstand the following a little better:

1. How to best set the levels bwtween the door 6"x9" and the dash 3.5" speakers. Not quite sure how to determine the proper level for the the 3.5" speakers. Do I play pink noise on each separately and just match the DB level? Does it matter if I use db, dBa or dBc for this? Obviously, the 3.5" speakers are way too "in your face" at full level. Right now I think I have them at like -8db - but I want to understand how to set that level properly to match the 6x9 level in the doors.

2. How to get the speaker response "flat" before adjusting for preference. Since I'm not using REW or or sort of "target curve", I just want to adjust the EQ so they are truly "flat" - and then adjust for prefernce from there. I know that I would use AudioTool to do this, but not quite sure if I should be using Flat, A-weighted or C-weighted in AudioTool when reviewing the frequency response of each speaker. Do I just play pink noise from each speaker and adjust EQ until it's "flat"? Do I use A- or C- weighted when doing this?*

I guess let's just leave it at that for now. The DSR'1 sets time alignment based on distance measurements, so I can get "in the ballpark" with that. I'm just not sure how to accomplish #1 and #2 above. I know that there is a lot more to this - but I want to understand those two items a little better before I go much further. 

I know I have a lot to learn - but trying to take it a step at a time. 

Thank you in advance.


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## disconnected (May 10, 2017)

Working with the equipment that you have, you are starting already crippled. You would have been 500% better had you installed 6.5" midbass speakers in 6x9 adapters in your doors and 1" tweeters in 3.5" adapters in your dash. 

1. Use pink noise and a db meter or REW.

2. Use REW.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Thank you for the reply. I appreciate the input, but the whole point of this excercise is to learn to tune using a basic RTA - and not needing to use a Windows laptop and something like REW.  I kind of want to learn things using basic tools and methods first. I mean there are LOTS of installers out there that tune this way, so I don't think that is "out of line" at all. I may eventually explore REW, but I feel that I would learn a lot more by learning how to properly use a basic RTA first. 

At this point, the equipment I have (speakers, amps, processors, etc) is NOT going to change. I *just* purchased and installed all of this grear.  I am NOT looking for a "SQ competition"-level system - just a great sounding system for the average person - using the equipment that I already have.

I've already "tuned by ear" and the system generally sounds great - but I'm sure it could get even better if I tuned it properly.

Thanks.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

No, really turn off the rear deck speakers. They are just causing cancellation and location assessment issues. If the sub is on the way, fine. If it's not going to be installed for a while you are better off running the 6.5's in the door 90hz and up and the 6x9's in the rear deck 45-50ish-90. You might be surprised how much low end can come fro a 6x9. However I have know idea the true capability of your speakers.

Right now you have 6 tweeters. Unacceptable at any level of hobbyist. I would de-solder or clip and tape the tweets on the 6.5 and 6x9's (both ways are reversible). No one can help you get a flat signal with all that same frequency intermingling. 

Suggesting you use REW is not skipping the basics. It's called starting without a handicap. REW can be as simple or as advanced as you make it.

I have used the imm-6 and audio tool to get an initial idea of where I'm at. It works. Match your initial speaker levels by ear via amp gain. As you move on take several measurements around your head in the same places each time and average it. Then match it. Different frequency loundness is perceived differently so use your ears. Make sure you set your time alignment. There is a couple tuning tutorials on here that are very good. The one by Skizer for rew can be applied to any dsp.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Have a read of the ‘audiofrog tuning guide for a one seat car’ , that will reveal a hell of a lot, easy to follow and very explainable ?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Theslaking said:


> No, really turn off the rear deck speakers. They are just causing cancellation and location assessment issues. If the sub is on the way, fine. If it's not going to be installed for a while you are better off running the 6.5's in the door 90hz and up and the 6x9's in the rear deck 45-50ish-90. You might be surprised how much low end can come fro a 6x9. However I have know idea the true capability of your speakers.
> 
> Right now you have 6 tweeters. Unacceptable at any level of hobbyist. I would de-solder or clip and tape the tweets on the 6.5 and 6x9's (both ways are reversible). No one can help you get a flat signal with all that same frequency intermingling.
> 
> ...



Thank you. Just to clarify a few things - just so we're all on the same page:

1. The 6x9 speakers are in my door and the 6.5" speakers are in the rear-deck (you understood it backwards). Right now, I am basically just using the rear-deck 6.5" speakers to provide some additional bass (based on my crossover settings). But I have no problem completely turning them off for now in order to get the front stage setup properly. 

2. While all of the speakers are 2-way speakers and physically have tweeters, the only tweeters actually being used are those on the 3.5" dash speakers - all of the others are disabled by the crossover settings in the DSR-1 DSP. 

3. Yes, I have been pretty impressed with the bass response from the 6x9 speakers in the doors - much better bass response than the 6.5" speakers (but a lot of that is most likely based on the location where they are installed).

4. At least at this point, I really don't want to use REW. First, I don't have any Windows laptops - at least nothing current that has even been powered on in the last few years.  Second, I have a lot to learn just with the "basics" here - I don't want to add even more to that learning curve by needing to learn REW as well - again, at least not yet. I want to tune using an RTA. I appreciate everyone saying to use REW - but that really is not my goal at this point. If that means that I'm starting with a handicap, then so be it. I like doing things the hard way (I've found that I tend to learn better than way!). 

5. Regarding setting the speaker levels by ear via amp gain - keep in mind that I currently have all gains set the same on all amp channels on the amp itself - using the JL Audio recommended procedure to set gains using a multimeter - I know it's not "perfect", but that's as good as I can get with the tools I have. I'm controlling the levels of each speaker via the DSR1 DSP (lowering if/as needed on the DSP). Is there any advantage to using the gains on the amp itself over adjusting the levels on the DSR1? Obviously, adjusting the levels on the DSR1 is a lot easier since I can adjust them while sitting in the drivers seat listening to tones/music.

6. I guess I was under the impression that the whole point of tuning was to get the system to a "baseline", accurate setup using measurements first - and then make any final adjustments by ear to adjust for "preference", etc. I've already tuned by ear - but I'm sure it can get better, which is why I want to create a new profile and tune with measurements first - and then adjust by ear as needed.


Thanks again for your input - everybody that responds gives me some useful information!! I truly do appreciate any and all input as I try to learn this stuff.





dumdum said:


> Have a read of the ‘audiofrog tuning guide for a one seat car’ , that will reveal a hell of a lot, easy to follow and very explainable


Thank you - I will make sure to search and find that!


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

jtrosky said:


> Thank you. Just to clarify a few things - just so we're all on the same page:
> 
> 1. The 6x9 speakers are in my door and the 6.5" speakers are in the rear-deck (you understood it backwards). Right now, I am basically just using the rear-deck 6.5" speakers to provide some additional bass (based on my crossover settings). But I have no problem completely turning them off for now in order to get the front stage setup properly.
> 
> ...


The point is valid about rew, it has very good functionality as an rta and once you’ve started to learn the basics it carry’s through when you wish to go more advanced, otherwise you will sort using your phone which can take a while, then have to learn rew and take time doing that... as said rew can be as simple or as complex as you make it, I’d start by using the best tool for the job in a simple manner and work from there being very honest ?? Definitely don’t worry about a new laptop, rew is relatively simple in resource requirements, a 10year old laptop will run it just fine ??


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I think my questions are regarding pretty basic use of an RTA - regardless of what application you use specifically - so I think they would apply to REW too - meaning I would have the exact same questions even if I were using REW, simply because they are very "basic" question about tuning fundamentals.

That being said, based on the help here and more research in general, I *think* I have the answers to my two simple questions...

1. When reviewing frequency response from my speakers on an RTA (both individually and combined), I should use the "flat" mode of the RTA (not a- or c-weighted) - then adjust for preference from there.
2. To level-match my door and dash speakers, I should just play pink noise on each one separately and use the dB reading from a SPL meter to get them at the same level - then adjust by ear manually from there if needed.

The DSR-1 sets time alignment based on simple measurements - so I'm not concerned with time alignment "how-to" - I'm covered there (at least as a good starting point - and can adjust as needed by ear from there). My under-the-seat sub has arrived, so I will be installing that soon as well to help with the bottom end.

So I think I have everything I need for now. Still have a lot to learn and may eventually look into REW. I have what I think is a pretty complete set of tools with the Android AudioTool app for now.

Interestingly, I've been watching a lot of videos from places like Five Star Car Stereo and Car Audio Fabrication and I don't think I've ever once seen them use or even reference REW. They seem to do all of their tuning with tools such as AudioTool - and have even recommended some of the best tools for tuning (mobile device apps) - or even a real hardware RTA device (I've seen a lot of professional tuners using those). For the level of tuning that I'm looking to get into at this point, it just seems that I should be able to do everything I need using these basic tools pretty easily. We'll see about using REW in the future.

Thanks again for all of the input - I really do appreciate it!


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Let me ask you guys something on a different subject... My 2018 Challenger (6 speaker Alpine amplified system) comes from the factory with the dash speakers wired in reverse polarity. I thought that was really strange, but have confirmed 500% that they are - both with a polarity checking tool and by actually checking wiring diagrams and figuring out which terminal is positive and which is negative on the stock speakers with the 9-volt battery trick, since they aren't marked in any way.

Any idea why that would be? And what are your thoughts on keeping them that way when tuning? I'm assuming they do this for a reason, but maybe it's just to compensate for crappy speakers in some way? The stock dash speakers are single-cone 3.5" speakers. In fact, none of the 6 stock speakers have a dedicated tweeter - they are all single-cone "1-way" speakers.

While playing around tuning by ear, I have had them sound good either way, depending on EQ/levels, etc...

But I also see that just about every tuning guide says to make sure polarity is "normal" to start with... Assuming I should set them to normal polarity, but just wanted to get some input.

Thanks again!

By the way, I just went through a pretty quick "tuning session" and even though the EQ's are set in a way that I would never expect, it actually sounds pretty damn good! There just may be something to this measurement stuff! ;-) Now if I could just keep my battery charged up while tuning, I'd be in good shape!  Guess I need to get a trickle charger or something....


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## Blu (Nov 3, 2008)

jtrosky said:


> Guess I need to get a trickle charger or something....


https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/417693-55-amp-power-supply-cascade-audio-engineering-aps-55-a.html

Worth taking a look at this For Sale post.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Blu said:


> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...upply-cascade-audio-engineering-aps-55-a.html
> 
> 
> 
> Worth taking a look at this For Sale post.


Hmm - so how do you conect these to the car? I'm assuming you don't connect directly to the battery? Or do you? I'm guessing that they would be better than the average car battery charger when it comes to noise (or the lack thereof)?

Interested to hear how you would use these. I just checked my battery this morning with a battery tester and while the health is still at 100%, it was down to a 30% charge!! So I definitely need to come up with something. Would rather not keep running it down and recharging it (right now, I have it charging with a regular car battery charger).

Thanks!


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## Blu (Nov 3, 2008)

http://cascadeaudio.com/power_converters/pdf/APS_Manual.pdf


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## Souths1der (Aug 27, 2014)

jtrosky said:


> Let me ask you guys something on a different subject... My 2018 Challenger (6 speaker Alpine amplified system) comes from the factory with the dash speakers wired in reverse polarity. I thought that was really strange, but have confirmed 500% that they are - both with a polarity checking tool and by actually checking wiring diagrams and figuring out which terminal is positive and which is negative on the stock speakers with the 9-volt battery trick, since they aren't marked in any way.
> 
> Any idea why that would be? And what are your thoughts on keeping them that way when tuning? I'm assuming they do this for a reason, but maybe it's just to compensate for crappy speakers in some way? The stock dash speakers are single-cone 3.5" speakers. In fact, none of the 6 stock speakers have a dedicated tweeter - they are all single-cone "1-way" speakers.
> 
> ...


I just sold my 2016 Challenger with that same 6-speaker Alpine system, and I can confirm the dash 3.5's were reverse polarity. I never could figure out why, my probably wrong guess was it was a poor mans way to correct phase between the dash and door speakers.

You should also notice that the dash speakers and door speakers do not get a full signal. The amp had a crossover between both speakers that was around the 200-300hz area. Those two signals need to be summed to get a full signal, but I assume your DSP is doing that automatically. Another funny thing about that Challenger audio system is the dash speakers are amplified and the door speakers are not. When I started with the Challenger I tried the RF 360.3 and it couldn't quite sum those signals with different amplification properly and I would clip between 200-300Hz under moderate power no matter what I tried. The only manual settings that wouldn't clip made the system sound like crap. When I finally just bit the bullet and got a Helix everything came together. Just some food for thought if you start to hear some clipping, check that frequency range.

I ran Hybrid U69's in the door, Scan 3" widebanders in the dash, and Scan tweeters velcro'd on my dash, sub in the trunk. Ditch those rear speakers!


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

It was my understanding that all 6 speakers are amplified - in that the stock amp has 4 channels of input (from the head-unit) and creates 6 channels of output from it. As you said, the doors get only bass (~400hz and under), the dash gets mids/high (~400hz and over) and the rear-deck gets a full-signal (but doesn't really play highs due to the lack of a tweeter). I can't see how the door 6x9s could not be amplfied - they produce quite a bit of bass for what they are - probably the majority of the sound in the car - and we all knwo that bass requires more power than mids/highs! 

Regardless, I no longer use the stock amp at all (not even connected anymore) - with the DSR1, it generaters 8 full-range channels of output directly from the head-unit that you can do whatever you want with. I'm feeding 6 of them to a 6-channel amp so that I can send whatever I want to any of the channels (but basically, I'm doing the same thing as the stock amp - lows to doors and mids/highs to dash).

Is there any reason not to use the rear-deck speakers for bass only - especially since I don't have a sub hooked up yet? I mean if I run them just for 60hz -> 250hz, for example, that shouldn't mess up my front stage (especially if I lower the levels of them), yet they should still provide some extra bass, right?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ok, more stupid questiion time... 

1. Since my front stage is an active setup with 6.5" speakers in the doors (mid-bass only) and 3.5" speakers in the dash (mids/highs only) - each going to dedicated amplifier channels (not wired in parallel on the same channel) and crossed over at 450hz, do I tune them with pink noise playing from both speakers at the same time (left door and left dash) or do I tune with pink-noise playing from them one speaker at a time (for the frequency range they are playing)? If I do it separately, do I then go back and play them both at the same time when done in order to make sure the crosover area looks correct? 

2. When I start playing pink noise and raise the volume to a certain level - let's say an average of 85db in order to work on EQ - I'm not clear on how to determine what db level to use as the "target" for "flat" tuning. I mean one frequency could be 15 db higher than another before I adjust anything. If I am only to cut frequencies and not boost them, then I would have to use the frequency with the lowest db level and do a LOT of very significant cuts, which would really limit the overall output level. Is that the proper way (use the frequency with the lowest level and cut every other frequency down to that level)?

I was REALLY surprised how "un-even" the pink noise frequency response was - especially on my 3.5" dash spekers. The 2khz-3khz range seemed especially low - so low that I would REALLY have to cut other frequenices (up to 15 db) to get them as low as the 2k-3k range response. It was that way on both left and right channels. Makes me really question the accuracy of the microphone (inexpensive Dayton Audio IMM-6 calibrated mic). I guess the device could also be problematic (using an old Nexus 9) too?

Thank you!


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ok, so after some further testing, I've found that I'm getting drastically-different readings from different Android devices - even though I'm using the same microphone, so I've given up on the Android/IMM-6 combination of doing measurements.

Insteading of wasting my time, I just ordered a miniDSP UMIK-1 and will find a device to run REW on. I was really hoping to just use a simple RTA on an Android device, but i'm since every Android device is reporting drastically different results with the same MIC, it's just not going to work. I'm assuming the audio "internals" of these devices must really wreck havoc with the TRRS mic measurements.

I REALLY didn't want to spend ~$100 on a MIC, but it is what is.... I should have just listened to those that are more experienced with this stuff from the start.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> Ok, so after some further testing, I've found that I'm getting drastically-different readings from different Android devices - even though I'm using the same microphone, so I've given up on the Android/IMM-6 combination of doing measurements.
> 
> Insteading of wasting my time, I just ordered a miniDSP UMIK-1 and will find a device to run REW on. I was really hoping to just use a simple RTA on an Android device, but i'm since every Android device is reporting drastically different results with the same MIC, it's just not going to work. I'm assuming the audio "internals" of these devices must really wreck havoc with the TRRS mic measurements.
> 
> I REALLY didn't want to spend ~$100 on a MIC, but it is what is.... I should have just listened to those that are more experienced with this stuff from the start.



REW is lightyears better than the best android analyzers. I measure everything with it lol. Desk speakers, home theater , car. My bass guitar rig.
Its changed my life when it come to audio.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

jtrosky said:


> Hmm - so how do you conect these to the car? I'm assuming you don't connect directly to the battery? Or do you? I'm guessing that they would be better than the average car battery charger when it comes to noise (or the lack thereof)
> 
> Thanks!


You hook it up directly to the battery. I cut 6 gauge battery jumper cables in half to use as hookups. I bought 4 APS 55 power supplies from gtmike and he is an excellent seller. I use just one to tune for hours and you can leave it hooked up to the battery when in 13.5 volt mode and it won’t over charge the battery because it varies the current down to millivolts. It also puts out cleaner current and more stable voltage compared to a battery charger, which was designed to charge a battery, not run high current 12 volt electronics like a power supply. 

You can also gang these together up to 4 for massive current supply which is what I did for my amplifier shootout.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

JCsAudio said:


> You hook it up directly to the battery. I cut 6 gauge battery jumper cables in half to use as hookups. I bought 4 APS 55 power supplies from gtmike and he is an excellent seller. I use just one to tune for hours and you can leave it hooked up to the battery when in 13.5 volt mode and it won’t over charge the battery because it varies the current down to millivolts. It also puts out cleaner current and more stable voltage compared to a battery charger, which was designed to charge a battery, not run high current 12 volt electronics like a power supply.
> 
> 
> 
> You can also gang these together up to 4 for massive current supply which is what I did for my amplifier shootout.


It's tempting, but I think I'm going to try my reqular battery charger first. Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but I was under the impression that the cars electronics would still be run from the battery and then the battery charger would just recharge the battery as-needed - just so it doesn't dischage to nothing (just like the alternator would do if the car was running). Meaning that the battery would still be the main power source (instead of the charger/power supply itself). I guess the question is if a regular charger would introduce any noise into the system while doing this. With my car, I normally connect the battery charger to "jump points" under the hood - and my actual battery is in the trunk. But I've never tried actually using the car electronics while it was being charged before...

Please correct me if my understanding of how this works is incorrect.

I don't mind spending money for the 'good stuff' when/where needed, but this is not something that I plan on doing on a regular basis. I'm hoping that after a few tuning "sessions", I will no longer need to spend hours at a time tuning.  My original goal was just to make my stock system a little louder - but it seems that every day, I keep on going a little further down the rabbit hole with equipment and tools (for example - tools needed to crimp battey lugs, under-the-seat sub, better tuning mcrophone, etc). Just trying not to spend $$$ on something that I'll use very little - especially if I already have another way to do it (such as a regular battery charger).

But please - if you feel there is any way that I can "damage" anything by using a regular battery charger, please speak up. I know that someone else with a Dodge Challenger uses a trickle-charger on the under-the-hood jump points while tuning and is seems to work fine for him.

Thank you!


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## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

I've had good luck with a regular battery charger. The one I use will trickle or put out 10 or 50 amps. I just set it at 10 and my battery doesn't drop at all. I've also tuned for up to an hour or so without any charger. I have a cigarette lighter display that shows voltage. I try to stay above 12v.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

jtrosky, once a vehicle is started and the alternator is spinning everything then runs from the alternator and the alternator also charges up the battery because it takes up to 300 amps to turn the starter motor and crank the engine. The sole purpose of the battery is to provide enough juice to start the engine and then the alternator takes over. Now there are benefits to having the battery connect all the time such as assisting in smoothing out any electrical fluctuations and it also helps smooth out electrical fluctuations from say a battery charger with a dirty discharge. It can also help with any sudden short term electrical demand such as from a big monoblock amplifier that exceed the reserve capacity of the alternator during big bas kicks.

When I was tuning on a battery charger I found that sometimes the 10 amp setting wasn’t enough and sometimes it was too much and started over charging the battery. This may not be the case with yours, especially if you have an automatic charger. I actually blew a monoblock amplifier screwing around with test tones when the 10 amp setting wasn’t enough and the next click on the dial was the 40 amp setting. About 6 seconds after I switched it to that 40 amp setting the amplifier popped a mosfet and went up in smoke. With my current 55 amp power supplies the current and voltage is regulated by electrical demand up to 55 amps per unit so it can’t overcharge a battery even if I leave it on for days and the electrical current coming out is cleaner because it’s designed for this purpose. 

If you use the battery charger just be careful and monitor the voltage. I’d also keep the current setting to no more than 10 amps. A lot of people get by doing it this way.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Thanks guys - as usual, I appreciate the input!

As I try to learn the basics of REW and come up with a game plan to start tuning using REW, I've been reviewing as many REW tuning tutorials as I can. However, there seems to be a "fork in the road" and I'm not sure which way to go yet. 

One of the most detailed tutorials I've found (Hanatsu's tutorial) uses Sine Sweeps to tune everything - whereas most other tutorials use averaged Pink Noise for tuning (but those tutorials are much less detailed).

So - any recommendations as to which method is best? Keep in mind that I'm a tuning noob and my equipment is on the low-end of the scale (inexpensive Infinity Reference speakers, for example) - if that plays into the recommended method at all. I'm looking for "Average Joe" great sound, not "Audiophile Joe" *perfect* sound. 

Looking forward to messing with REW in-car - only problem is that it's been so damn hot that it would be impossible to sit in a car that isn't running, with the windows up, for any significant amount of time - so will probably need to do this very late at night or very early in the morning, which really limits my ability to actually get this done....


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## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

Use rta with pink noise. It's faster and you get enough info to do eq. Here are my RTA settings.

Once you are done saving a few measurements you can smooth further than 1/12 smoothing.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Hey guys - Ok, so I'm now using REW and have a few questions...


1. Would you recommend that I use the latest stable version of REW or the latest beta version?

2. If I want to match the levels of my door speakers (mid-bass) and my dash speakers (mids/highs - 2-way 3.5" speaker), can I just use the "Input RMS" dB values that I get from the individual speaker pink-noise RTA sessions (where I move the MIC around while it averages) and then match them using those dB values? I'm assuming that those valiues are the "average" levels. I'm finding that just getting the proper levels for the door and dash speakers is something that I'm struggling with in order to get them to "mesh" well. I'd rather not just set them "by ear" - the whole point of this is to at least get a proper baseline with measurements instead of guessing "by ear".

3. All of the tutorials I watch, it almost seems like they are tuning an already-tuned (or almost tuned) system.  Meaning when they take invididual speaker measurements, they are already pretty damn "flat"! I don't seem to be getting those types of results. Is it somewhat normal to have to cut some frequencies over 10dB in order to get your speakers to match one of the house curves?? Since I'm cutting so much with the EQ, I think I'll have to end up raising my amp gains in order to get the sound levels back to where they should be after EQ'ing - otherwise, the volume levels just won't be there since I'm cutting so many dB's... Maybe my un-EQ'd results just suck becuase I'm using low-end speakers? 

4. Do you recommend using the REW signal generator for pink noise over a pink noise .wav file? I've been using a pink noise .wav file that I got from JL Audios's site, but not sure if it is "correct" for REW. Also, if I use REW's signal generator (Pink Noise (PN), I'm assuming), which setting do I use ("Speaker Cal" or "Full Range")? For a sub, I'm assuming I use the "Sub Cal", but not really sure if I should be using "Speaker Cal" or "Full Range" for my mid-bass and mid/high speakers. I'm thinking I should use "Full Range", but not 100% sure ("Speaker Cal" and "Full Rane" sound very different)!!

5. SInce I have a DSR-1 DSP, should I manually enter my default parametric EQ frequencies into the "EQ Filters" window (as "Manual" entries) - so that REW generated values for those specific frequencies - or should I just let it pick everything and get as close as I can with the DSR-1 parametric EQ? Since you can't get exact with the DSR-1, I guess I just get as close as I can - unless I'm better off forcing REW to use the default freqs in the DSR-1 parameteric EQ?

Thank you all for your help and patience! I'm starting to get the hang of REW, but a lot of the tutorials don't go into the "Controls" settings at all for the different functions (RTA, EQ, etc), so a lot of those I'm just leaving at defaults or "guessing" what they should be - and I haven't yet found a tutorial specific for the DSR-1 - most use the Helix DSP, it seems.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> Hey guys - Ok, so I'm now using REW and have a few questions...
> 
> 
> 1. Would you recommend that I use the latest stable version of REW or the latest beta version?
> ...


Every care is different. My stock locations have as much as 15db swings.
In one side 1.5khz and 500hz are up 15db on the other its 200hz and 7000hz. 
I have a VERY ugly response.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

drop1 said:


> Every care is different. My stock locations have as much as 15db swings.
> In one side 1.5khz and 500hz are up 15db on the other its 200hz and 7000hz.
> I have a VERY ugly response.


Ok, thanks - that is very helpful! I wasn't sure if I was doing something majorly wrong or if that is "just the way it is" sometimes (high dB swings). At least now I understand that my results may be completely normal.  

Sure makes my EQ look VERY bad - but I guess what really matters is the actual response after it's EQ'd, not what the EQ looks like. 

After I get everything EQ'd, I'll just re-adjust my gains appropriately. I'm just setting gains via teh JL Audio multimeter method, (xx volts on the speaker outputs after all EQ'ing is done).

Oh - one more question. SInce I have to turn my dash speakers down, is there really any difference whether I turn them down via the amp gain or via the DSP trim level settings? In my mind, while using the DSP to do it is easier, I'd probably be better off lowering the gains on the amp itself for those channels. I'm *thinking* (which could be wrong), that it would lower the noise floor and even use less power if I lower them with amp gain instead of DSP trim levels?

Thank you!


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > Every care is different. My stock locations have as much as 15db swings.
> ...


If given the choice I prefer to to turn the amp down when possible though down is down so its really not a big deal to do it in the dsp.
I'm just ocd and like my dsp gains at the default position.

And yes it's the final eq that matters.

But, there is a reason good instillation was stressed here for so many years. 

When you have situations like ours where we are cutting stuff in severe amounts, we lose some performance.

The amp see those eq cuts as huge peaks everywhere we didnt cut.
So instead of being able to play all the frequcies with the same power, the amp has to work hard at all those frequcies we didnt cut.



It's not the end of the world. Just something to be aware of.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Speaking of proper installation - that is something else that I need to do - some sound deadening, which may help clear up some of the issues with the 6x9 door speakers... I need to get a power window issue addressed under warranty before I go sealing up the doors though. I just absolutely hate going to dealerships though....


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> Speaking of proper installation - that is something else that I need to do - some sound deadening, which may help clear up some of the issues with the 6x9 door speakers... I need to get a power window issue addressed under warranty before I go sealing up the doors though. I just absolutely hate going to dealerships though....


It really does help. Inner and outer door skins, the back of the door panels, some stiff foam between the door panel and inner door skin and some mlv there as well. Can help a ton.

Still, none of that is as good as a custom install and taking your sweet time angling the drivers while listening and measuring.
In the old days, car required that. Dsp's have gotten so good we can easily get away with stock locations now.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Man, I'm really struggling to get my new system tuned properly using REW. If I measure the frequency respons of each of the speakers and use EQ to get them to match a "house curve", it sounds like crap. 

If I simply increase some bass and treble bands by 2db->3db (like the smiley face method with a graphical EQ), I can get it to sound so much better... Obviously, I'm missing something - or tuning to the wrong curve maybe?

I like a bass-heavy, "warm" sounding system. I have been setting my speaker EQ to the Hanatsu house curve using REW and pink noise. After EQ"ing, the speakers actually match up pretty well (at least *way* better than they did before any EQ'ing!) - but the results just don't sound good to me?

If I post some screeenshots of the response of each speaker from REW (or share the REW .mdat files), can anyone help me to a) confirm that things look correct and b) make improvements? Is there anyone that offers a "remote tuning" service, where I take the measurements, supply the data and someone gives me the tune settings for my DSR-1?  I'd gladly pay for someones expertise! I just want a correct, good sounding system to keep me happy while I learn and play more....

Thank you.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Skizer for remote tuning help. Post your location for potential local help.

It's possible you don't like what an SQ started sounds like. Most people don't like distortion free subs. That principle also applies to the rest of the speakers.

It is however more likely you just don't know how to tune to what you like. I'm sure after your post help is on the way!

P.S. graphs do help


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> Man, I'm really struggling to get my new system tuned properly using REW. If I measure the frequency respons of each of the speakers and use EQ to get them to match a "house curve", it sounds like crap. ?
> 
> If I simply increase some bass and treble bands by 2db->3db (like the smiley face method with a graphical EQ), I can get it to sound so much better... Obviously, I'm missing something - or tuning to the wrong curve maybe?
> 
> ...


That an sq car sounds like is a normal stereo, with a bit more bass. 

Go anywhere that sells bookshelf speakers. Find a decent set walk up and stand directly in the middle of a pair and play some music. That's it. It's not magic. 
Our cars naturally increase what we feel and that makes it more impressive than it really is. 


Actually. Scrap that. Go somewhere like guitar center that sells studio monitors. Listen to every pair you can, (they all sound a little different) that's about as close as you can get to what a true sq car sounds like out side a car. I prefer a bit more bass and a bit of treble too but I'm closer to true sq that not.
Also, if it sounds like you dont have enough bass, the tune is usually out of wack.

Something important I've never seen mentioned.

When it comes to eq. Half way eqed is not a good place to be. It really needs to be the best you can do to get the best results. The closer you get to right with phase, time alignment and eq, the more small problems will stand out. That's because you are getting a clearer sound every step of the way and it's hard to pull away from that jumbled up mess that is most car stereos.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I'm located in West Grove, PA (about 1 hour West of Philadelphia, PA). Zip code is 19390. Just in case anyone reading this is close by and interested in tuning the DSR-1 for me. 

I'm going to keep messing with it, but it's a real PITA repeatedly getting measurements in a hot-ass car while the battery runs down. If I play around for an hour, my battery usually goes down to like 35% and then it takes hours to get it charged back up. Buying one of those power supplies mentioned earlier in this thread is looking better and better every day.  My 10amp battery charger just can't keep up with the electrical demand and keep the battery charged while tuning.

I'll work on posting some "before and after" pictures of the response of each speaker - just to show what the initial measurements looked like and what they look like after the first EQ attempt - just to give some idea of what I'm working with. 

Still struggling to understand how to set the level of each spaeker properly. Previously, I was trying to match the "average" dB level of all speakers, but realized that is not correct - (mids and tweeters should be at lower levels that mid-bass speakers, for example - based on the curve I am tuning to) - so I should lower levels to match the house curve. I think that will become more clear once I get current measurements of the door/dash speakers playing at the same time.

Also not clear what is meant by making the EQ curve between the left and right drivers "match". I thought the whole purpose was to EQ each driver separately - but then we want to make the left and right drivers match anyway (not sure how you can have both - where the EQ of each speaker is correct *and* the left and right match in terms of EQ?). 

Just still have a long way to go in terms of understanding the details. I am getting good at measuring frequency respone of each driver and even using the REW auto-EQ features though. 

Thanks everyone.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

Theslaking said:


> Skizer for remote tuning help. Post your location for potential local help.
> 
> It's possible you don't like what an SQ started sounds like. Most people don't like distortion free subs. That principle also applies to the rest of the speakers.
> 
> ...


It can definitely be a trade off. My truck tuned for SQ competition sounds absolutely beautiful, but you sacrifice a lot of the ambient low frequencies. It’ll still get low and hits hard in midrange frequencies when called upon to do so, but it’s not unusual to forget that the subs back there working...at least on a lot of live recordings I listen to. When the drummer hammers the bass drum or the bass guitarist gets froggy though....just pure sweetness. 

Most folks like their music tuned differently than I do. My goal is pure realism.

I have a two seat tune that is more “dynamic” for those that prefer such things...like my significant other. She enjoys sitting in the driver’s seat with the SQ tune, but then I’m unhappy...and we can’t have that...lol.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> I'm located in West Grove, PA (about 1 hour West of Philadelphia, PA). Zip code is 19390. Just in case anyone reading this is close by and interested in tuning the DSR-1 for me. ?
> 
> I'm going to keep messing with it, but it's a real PITA repeatedly getting measurements in a hot-ass car while the battery runs down. If I play around for an hour, my battery usually goes down to like 35% and then it takes hours to get it charged back up. Buying one of those power supplies mentioned earlier in this thread is looking better and better every day. ? My 10amp battery charger just can't keep up with the electrical demand and keep the battery charged while tuning.
> 
> ...


Brother screw sitting in a hot car. For real.

Go out there with your mic and take 1 single rta measurement while moving the mic ear to ear then start the car and take another. If you are measuring close to your listening volume, I bet the rta shows NO DIFFERENCE in the mesusmrents. I never tune with my truck off. Never. I did once for a single compition. Never again. I cant honestly see how it's any different. 

I can list a bunch of technical reasons for measuring with the car off but it just doesnt make much difference In the real world unless you have a really loud car and loud ac


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

drop1 said:


> Brother screw sitting in a hot car. For real.
> 
> Go out there with your mic and take 1 single rta measurement while moving the mic ear to ear then start the car and take another. If you are measuring close to your listening volume, I bet the rta shows NO DIFFERENCE in the mesusmrents. I never tune with my truck off. Never. I did once for a single compition. Never again. I cant honestly see how it's any different.
> 
> I can list a bunch of technical reasons for measuring with the car off but it just doesnt make much difference In the real world unless you have a really loud car and loud ac


Interesting - very good point. I just saw that most tuning guides recommended the car be off, so that is what I did. I was basically taking measurements early in the morning or late at night when it wasn't so hot out. Plus, having the car running will slow down the battery drain. Not sure if the alternator can power the system at idle all by itself, but it will at least help a little. My system only draws a max of about 50-60 amps (main 600W amp and the 150W under-the-seat sub).

I'm definitely getting enough bass now with that under-the-seat sub. It may not be the deepest bass, but the bass that it does produce is definitely enough. In fact, I actually have to turn it down some more at this point. What a difference a sub makes, even just an 8" under-the-seat sub!


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > Brother screw sitting in a hot car. For real.
> ...


You need subs in a car. Really. You can get away with not having them but it will usually sound better with subs any time the car is running. They fill out the last octave or 2. 
Just understand that loud bass is usually distorted bass. Booming and sq dont go toghter


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Seriously though. Got to an audio shop that sells home gear. Take some sq tracks with you. Listen to the best set of 2 way speakers you can find. That sound is your goal. It takes always all the confusion about how the car should sound.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Oh, I know how good sound should sound. I've always been into home audio - right now I have a decent setup at home (mainly for home theatre, but music also sounds great on it). I definitely know what I want it to sound like - but was just surprised how far off the sound in my car was after tuning it via measurements (as opposed to just using the 31-band PEQ to increase some bass and treble frequencies by ear). 

In my home, I have an older Pioneer Elite receiver and tower speakers (along with a powered sub). I was originally using some older Boston Accoustics tower speakers, but ended up moving them to the rear for surround speakers and put some, believe it or not, Advent tower speakers up front - those things sound freaking amazing - better than the Bostons for sure!

But with the home system, it's easy to tune (at least a very good starting point) since they have those auto-tuning systems.  I wish they had that for the car (kind of like the KIcker KEY180.4 amp does!).


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> I'm located in West Grove, PA (about 1 hour West of Philadelphia, PA).


If you can make it - I highly recommend coming up to this event on August 18th. Some of us will be there competing. You'll be able to demo some of the nations top sq cars and talk car audio all day. Someone there may offer to help with your tuning issues too 

https://mecaevents.com/events/2546


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> But with the home system, it's easy to tune (at least a very good starting point) since they have those auto-tuning systems.  I wish they had that for the car (kind of like the KIcker KEY180.4 amp does!).


https://www.minidsp.com/products/car-audio-dsp/cdsp-8x12-dl

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/418115-minidsp-cdsp-dl-8x12-dirac-live-upgrade-new-release-help.html


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Unfortunately, I've already gone too far down the rabbit hole that I'm in (DSR-1, REW, UMIK-1, etc). To switch to that miniDSP product, I'd need to spend another $1200+ (dump the DSR-1, get a PAC Audio Amp Pro 4 and this MiniDSP product - then re-wire everything, etc).

I may have missed it in the description, but I'm assuming that MiniDSP system does auto-tuning?

The miniDSP products seem like great products. The DSR-1 lured me due to it's cost and "on-paper" functionality. It's a decent system (especially considering the integration aspect and cost!), but DSP's like Helix and MiniDSP are just so much more "mature", "standard" and bug-free it seems. Once I get things setup properly, the DSR-1 will be fine for me - but it's a very steep learning curve to get the most out of it. Even something like setting the PEQ according to what REW recommends is a real pain since you can't just key in values (EQ freq, gain, Q) in the DSR-1 app - plus you can't use the exact same freqs that REW recommends - unless you setup the DSR-1 PEQ freqs as "Manual" entries in the REW "EQ FIlters" screen and only have REW adjust gain and Q of those freqs - plus, that way I can easily do the same thing on left and right channels (since all freqs will match) - such as raise 120hz by 2db, for example). Have to work around a lot of the DSR-1 limitations when using REW to auto-tune.


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> I may have missed it in the description, but I'm assuming that MiniDSP system does auto-tuning?


Yes, with Dirac Live - time delay and eq is automated.




jtrosky said:


> The miniDSP products seem like great products. The DSR-1 lured me due to it's cost and "on-paper" functionality. It's a decent system (especially considering the integration aspect and cost!), but DSP's like Helix and MiniDSP are just so much more "mature", "standard" and bug-free it seems. Once I get things setup properly, the DSR-1 will be fine for me - but it's a very steep learning curve to get the most out of it. Even something like setting the PEQ according to what REW recommends is a real pain since you can't just key in values (EQ freq, gain, Q) in the DSR-1 app - plus you can't use the exact same freqs that REW recommends - unless you setup the DSR-1 PEQ freqs as "Manual" entries in the REW "EQ FIlters" screen and only have REW adjust gain and Q of those freqs - plus, that way I can easily do the same thing on left and right channels (since all freqs will match) - such as raise 120hz by 2db, for example). Have to work around a lot of the DSR-1 limitations when using REW to auto-tune.


Can't any frequency be selected for "PEQ" in the DSR-1?



May I suggest a much simpler way to get good sound quickly that has worked for me:
Don't concern yourself with individual driver EQ or matching L/R EQ at this point.
Just enter the time delays by distance, enter xovers freq's that are reasonable for your drivers - use LR24 slopes so as to keep large phase anomolies between drivers at a minimum. Then take RTA/pink noise measurement with everything playing. Use level adjustments to balance out the different driver type freq' ranges. Then use global EQ (EQ affecting all channels) to smooth out to your target. Use balance control on the HU to center up the image. Done.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Truthunter said:


> Can't any frequency be selected for "PEQ" in the DSR-1?


No - there are 31 bands per channel and while you can change the frequency, gain and Q, you can't pick a specific frequency. For the very low bands, it does change in increments of 1, but at mid/high frequencies, the increment can be 10 or even 100. Same with the gain - gain can only be adjusted in multiples of .5. The DSR-1 is tuned by a phone/tablet app (can't tune it with Windows at all - just iOS or Android). So everything is 'touch" based with very little "keyboard input" (mainly just time alignment measurements can be keyed in).





Truthunter said:


> May I suggest a much simpler way to get good sound quickly that has worked for me:
> 
> Don't concern yourself with individual driver EQ or matching L/R EQ at this point.
> 
> Just enter the time delays by distance, enter xovers freq's that are reasonable for your drivers - use LR24 slopes so as to keep large phase anomolies between drivers at a minimum. Then take RTA/pink noise measurement with everything playing. Use level adjustments to balance out the different driver type freq' ranges. Then use global EQ (EQ affecting all channels) to smooth out to your target. Use balance control on the HU to center up the image. Done.


I guess I can try that - I haven't even taken measurements with everything playing yet. There is no "global EQ" capability on the DSR-1, but I can change the EQ values for different channels separately though. The only way to get "global EQ" is if I disable the Bass/Mid/Treble settings on the head-unit - that will give me a "global" 7-band GEQ on the DSR-1 that I could use. But it's just a 7-band GEQ - and besides, I like having the Bass/Mid/Treble available on the head-unit in case I'm listening to a bad recording or something like that (basically, I guess the head-unit bass/mid/treble controls adjust the 7-band EQ behind the scenes). But you can only have the head-unit controls or the DSR-1 7-band GEQ enabled - not both.

Honestly, I'm OK with the individual channel EQ - I can do that successfully - and get things VERY close to the target curve relatively easy. Setting time alignment is easy too - it's done wth measurements on the DSR-1. It's just that when I set everything up, it sounds like crap - at least compared to what I can do manually by ear.  But I'm *sure* it can get better than my "by ear" setup too.

I'll take some more measurements today (L/R pairs, door/dash pairs all speakers, etc) to see if playing them together causes any major issues. So far, I've maninly only done individual speaker EQ. WIll spend some more time with it. I feel like I'm pretty close - but must be missing something...


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I'm starting to think that a "SQ car" just isn't for me.  I must have quite the hearing loss on upper frequencies, because I really have to boost upper frequencies to get something that sounds good to me. My current "by ear" tune frequency response actually increases in the treble area where every other house cuve i've seen decreases in that area. 

Oh well, it is what is. I'll enjoy my "by ear" tune for now while I continue to mess with tuning by measurements. So far, the measurement tuning just doesn't seem to work out for me - hopefully that changes as I learn more though.

If I can ever find a local shop to tune my DSR-1 system, I may just pay them to tune in professionly just to see if it's better. Anyone know of any good tuning shops that work with the DSR-1 in the SouthEast PA/Delware area (I live in area code 19390)? 

Honestly, I doubt that I would ever travel to New York for a SQ meet - just not that "into it" at this point. 

Thanks everyone!


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

If you make plans to meet with someone that can work with you for an hour or two driving there will probably save you time.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> I'm starting to think that a "SQ car" just isn't for me. ? I must have quite the hearing loss on upper frequencies, because I really have to boost upper frequencies to get something that sounds good to me. My current "by ear" tune frequency response actually increases in the treble area where every other house cuve i've seen decreases in that area.
> 
> Oh well, it is what is. I'll enjoy my "by ear" tune for now while I continue to mess with tuning by measurements. So far, the measurement tuning just doesn't seem to work out for me - hopefully that changes as I learn more though.
> 
> ...


Its definently not that. If you need to boost treble to make it sound good you are just using treble to mask problems. The treble is adding some clarity by overpowering the issues in the mid range. 
Its not easy brother. I suffered for a long time starting out. Always too much bass and too much treble because I never took the time to really dial in the mids. 

You may prefer a different curve but everyone loves clear powerful music and clear is the goal. It takes work. 

I know what you are doing because I've done it 1000 times. Boost bass, scoop the mids and push the treble up. That give the illusion of clear sound but trust me it sounds horrible compared to the real deal.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

I wish you had a helix. I could give you instructions to get really decent sound in minutes.

Its auto eq isnt perfect but it gives a good head start. Good enough for most people to not want to go any further. The helix also makes it really easy to fine tune. 

I spent almost 20 years in your situation. I learned everything the hard way. Trial and error were the name of the game. Then the internet came out and all the pieces started coming together. Now its second nature but the journey was so long.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I'll keep poking along and see what I can figure out. At least the "by ear" tune that I made even better today will keep me happy until I get this stuff under control.

I really do want to have it tuned correctly - I guess it will just take longer than I thought.  I think some of the DSR-1 limitations make it even harder for a 'noob' like myself.

I'll eventually get there with some help from you guys though!

Thanks again - I really do appreciate all of the help.

WIll work on some EQ'ing and post some graphs of what I'm seeing (before and after for each speaker, paris of speakers, etc). Even though the response of my drivers looks SO much better after EQ'ing, they just don't actually sound better to me. I probably just have a lot more to learn.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Very important point... you can’t use a multimeter to set gains once you’ve eq’d a system!! Reason being if you apply... for example... a 6db cut at a frequency you use to set the gains and you then re-set the gains using the eq but you also boosted elsewhere by 6db you would then have the amp trying to make 12db worth of extra power at the boosted frequency! That’s a whole lot of clip of you maxed out the cut frequency!! When eq’d you will find the louder parts get turned down but the quieter parts are still maxing out the amps power so in reality you are expecting far too much from your system I think

What you can do though is set the gains with -3 or -6db test tones and then use the law of averages to say that most music is recorded at that level anyway and use your ears to tell you if it gets nasty

Unfortunately there is no easy way around this, the car environment isn’t a nice one to make sound in so we have to make compromises

Also sound deaden the car... It will make the environment a load better with no buzzes and rattles from trim etc ?? And you will probably find your rta gets smoother and nicer with a more focused stage and image without rattles to draw the ear away from pure harmonious sound ??


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Regarding the setting of gains with a multimeter. The reason that I mentioned re-setting the gains after EQ was because that is what the JL Audio manual for the XD600/6v2 amp says to do. Basically, they have you set the gains with all EQ off. Then, at the end of the procedure, is says that if you've increased anything via EQ, you should reset the gains after EQ.

Honestly, I have a feeling (aka a guess) that my gains are actually set pretty low - simply because the volume control of my stock head-unit could be turned all of the way up without any audible distortion with the stock amp. The volume control seems very "conservative". It goes up to 39 - but the volume really doesn't start "coming on" until after 20 and doesn't start actually get "loud" until 27+. It just seems like they designed the stock radio so that it could be turned all of the way up without distortion (audible, at least). Other cars I've had, it was pretty obvious that you couldn't turn the volume all of the way up. I really need a SMD distorton detector I guess (but that is yet something else that I'd use only a few times). Wish you could rent those things!  But since the procedure below has you set the head-unit to 3/4's volume, I have a feeling that my gains are actually lower than they could be.

Anyway, here is the JL Audio 9-step gain setting process from the manual that I used:


```
[b][u]APPENDIX A: Input  Sensitivity  Level  Setting[/b][/u]

Following the directions below will allow the installer to adjust the input sensitivity of each amplifier channel pair simply and easily in just a few minutes using equipment which is commonly available in installation bays. 

[b][u]Necessary Equipment[/u][/b]
 • Digital AC Voltmeter
 • CD with a sine-wave test tone recorded at 0 dB reference level in the frequency range to be amplified for that set of channels  (50 Hz for subwoofer channels, 1 kHz for a midrange application). Do not use attenuated test tones (-10 dB, -20 dB, etc.). 

[b][u]The Nine-Step  Procedure[/u][/b] 

   [indent]1)    Disconnect the speaker(s) from the amplifier’s speaker output connectors. 

   2)    Turn off all processing (bass/treble, loudness, EQ, etc.) on the source unit, processors (if used) and amplifier. Set the fader control to center position and the subwoofer level control to 3/4 of maximum (if used to feed   the  XD600/6v2). 

   3)Switch  the  “Input  Voltage”  switch to  “Low” and turn all three “Input Sens.” controls all the way  down. 

   4)    Set the source unit volume to 3/4 of full volume. This will allow for reasonable gain overlap with moderate clipping at full volume. 

   5)    Using the chart on this page, determine the target voltage for input sensitivity adjustment according to the nominal impedance of the speaker system connected to the amplifier outputs. 

   6)    Verify that you have disconnected the speakers before proceeding. Play a track with an appropriate sine wave (within the frequency range to be amplified by the XD600/6v2) at 3/4 source unit volume. 

   7)    Connect the AC voltmeter to the speaker output connectors of the amplifier. Make sure you test the voltage at the correct connectors (+ and –). 

   8)    Increase the “Input Sens.” control until the target voltage is observed with the voltmeter. 

   9)    Once you have adjusted each channel section on the XD600/6v2 to its maximum low-distortion output level, reconnect the speaker(s). The  “Input  Sens.”  controls can now be adjusted  downward if the amplifier requires attenuation to achieve the desired system balance. [/indent]

[b]IMPORTANT[/b]
Do not increase any “Input Sens.” setting for any amplifier channel or channel pair in the system beyond the maximum level established during this procedure. Doing so will result in audible distortion and possible speaker damage. 

[b][u]It will be necessary to re-adjust the  “Input Sens.”  if any equalizer boost is activated after setting the  “Input  Sens.”  with  this  procedure. This applies to any EQ boost circuit, including source unit tone controls or EQ circuits. EQ cuts will not require re-adjustment.[/b][/u]
```


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Yes you can do that... but it must be at the frequency with the highest level so in effect you will end up turning it down or at most keeping it as is if you haven’t boosted anything... in other words it won’t get any louder than it is now

The fact the source unit isn’t at full output means the gains are already higher than you’d set them, sorry but your not quite grasping the implications of turning a headunit up, it isn’t 3/4 volume is 3/4 signal... 3/4 volume will be maybe 1/10th or lower of signal as decibels are a complete head wrecker as they are logarithmic

So my pioneer headunit is a 4v output, it does 4v at 58 out of 62, if I turn it down 3 notches to it does 2.8v which is roughly 0.707 (3db) down, another three notches to 52 and it does just under 2 volts which is 1/4 power... in six notches out of 58

So what jl have done is allowed for signal material not being recorded at a 0db level and then expect you to turn the headunit over 3/4 to compensate for this, however to expect it to get much louder Simply won’t happen without potentially killing speakers from excessive heat from distortion, especially if you remeasure at freqs that aren’t boosted (hence the reason they say if you’ve only cut certain frequencys you don’t need to readjust anything... in other words as I’ve said, unless you are turning it down it won’t be getting adjusted if any slider is still on 0db, and if it’s over you definitely will be turning the amp down ??


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

dumdum said:


> Yes you can do that... but it must be at the frequency with the highest level so in effect you will end up turning it down or at most keeping it as is if you haven’t boosted anything... in other words it won’t get any louder than it is now


Hmm - when you say that it "must be at the frequency with the highest level", are you saying that I have to use a test tone at the frequency that is boosted the most via EQ when setting gains (instead of the 1000hz tone I was using originally)? 

I'm not sure how this process works, as in what the speaker output voltage really represnts, but let's say that the speaker-out voltage level decreases after EQ'ing becuase of all of the cuts I make (way more dB in cuts than boosts), wouldn't the voltage coming out of the amp actually decrease? Meaning that I really would end up increasing the gain on the amps when re-setting them after EQ, wouldn't I? Or doesn't it work that way? 

What I'm worried about is that after making all of these cuts via EQ to flatten out the frequency response, that my volume level will be substantially reduced. While i love great sounding music, it doesn't do me much good if I can't enjoy it becuase it won't get loud enough (I really like LOUD music - especially if it sonds great). I guess I was under the impression that 75W x 6 RMS would be more than enough for the 6 car speakers.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

jtrosky said:


> Hmm - when you say that it "must be at the frequency with the highest level", are you saying that I have to use a test tone at the frequency that is boosted the most via EQ when setting gains (instead of the 1000hz tone I was using originally)?
> 
> I'm not sure how this process works, as in what the speaker output voltage really represnts, but let's say that the speaker-out voltage level decreases after EQ'ing becuase of all of the cuts I make (way more dB in cuts than boosts), wouldn't the voltage coming out of the amp actually decrease? Meaning that I really would end up increasing the gain on the amps when re-setting them after EQ, wouldn't I? Or doesn't it work that way?
> 
> What I'm worried about is that after making all of these cuts via EQ to flatten out the frequency response, that my volume level will be substantially reduced. While i love great sounding music, it doesn't do me much good if I can't enjoy it becuase it won't get loud enough (I really like LOUD music - especially if it sonds great). I guess I was under the impression that 75W x 6 RMS would be more than enough for the 6 car speakers.


Yes that’s exactly what I’m saying, the amplifier has a set voltage at any given frequency, that’s it’s max before clip in theory, so by setting a voltage you’ve ensured that all frequencies (let’s assume the amps frequency response is linear) are clean and not clipping and you have set the amp for 20 volts (the power rails voltage in the amplifier that decides it’s peak voltage output) in this theoretical example

So you’ve then cut 1khz by 3db (-3db in electrical power terms is basically times the voltage by 0.707, so your amp is now doing 14v give or take at 1khz, while doing this the only other band you altered was 400hz, this you boosted by 3db, so at 400hz your now making 20v divided by 0.707 or 28.2v...

there’s the rub, the amplifiers power rails will only make 20v, so now you need to reduce the gain so that 28.2v becomes 20v so the frequencies you’ve not altered now have to use less power and are running off of 14v and the one you cut is now even less, approx 10.8v off the top of my head

If you don’t turn the amplifiers down to match the highest voltage to the max the amp can do it will clip and cut the tops off the waves ??


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Basically the output gain has to be set lower if you boost a single frequency and cut 29, the maximum the amp can produce is the same at every given frequency so the one becomes the deciding factor on where the gains are set ?? It doesn’t average over the lot, it’s simply the outputs will make x amount of voltage, there is no way around that for you

However I will say if it doesn’t sound distorted I wouldn’t turn it down, however you may wish to advance past 3/4 very carefully and see what it sounds like


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

disconnected said:


> Working with the equipment that you have, you are starting already crippled. You would have been 500% better had you installed 6.5" midbass speakers in 6x9 adapters in your doors and 1" tweeters in 3.5" adapters in your dash.
> 
> 1. Use pink noise and a db meter or REW.
> 
> 2. Use REW.


I'm sorry, but this is 100% horse ****.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

dumdum said:


> Basically the output gain has to be set lower if you boost a single frequency and cut 29, the maximum the amp can produce is the same at every given frequency so the one becomes the deciding factor on where the gains are set  It doesn’t average over the lot, it’s simply the outputs will make x amount of voltage, there is no way around that for you
> 
> 
> 
> However I will say if it doesn’t sound distorted I wouldn’t turn it down, however you may wish to advance past 3/4 very carefully and see what it sounds like


Ok, thanks. I guess I assumed that the voltages were averages and that by cutting a bunch of frequencies and boosting on a few, that the voltage would end up being lower. Sounds like that's not the case though. 

I guess I really need to invest in a SMD DD-1 if I want to get the most out of this amp. JL Audio does say that the amps are underrated. I have definitely turned the head-unit volume over 3/4, even with my "boost only" by-ear tune (multiple freqs boosted by up to 2.5db) and didn't hear any distortion whatsoever, but no idea if there is distortiion that i'm not hearing....

I just hate to spend $150 on something that I'll use once or twice. 

Is the SMD DD-1 the cheapest way to set gains properly? Or could I buy a $60 oscilliscope like this to set them properly?

https://www.amazon.com/JYETech-Batt...&pd_rd_r=36e4d8f2-23f9-4b65-bb44-194e6941abb2


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> dumdum said:
> 
> 
> > Basically the output gain has to be set lower if you boost a single frequency and cut 29, the maximum the amp can produce is the same at every given frequency so the one becomes the deciding factor on where the gains are set  It doesn’t average over the lot, it’s simply the outputs will make x amount of voltage, there is no way around that for you
> ...


There is an easier way to ball park it. Find the frequncy you've boosted the most and play a sine wave at that frequncy. Turn it up until it stops sounding smooth then back off until it's not distorted. You can use a slightly negative db since if youd like. 

Its pretty easy to hear when a pure sine wave distorts


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

jtrosky said:


> Ok, thanks. I guess I assumed that the voltages were averages and that by cutting a bunch of frequencies and boosting on a few, that the voltage would end up being lower. Sounds like that's not the case though.
> 
> I guess I really need to invest in a SMD DD-1 if I want to get the most out of this amp. JL Audio does say that the amps are underrated. I have definitely turned the head-unit volume over 3/4, even with my "boost only" by-ear tune (multiple freqs boosted by up to 2.5db) and didn't hear any distortion whatsoever, but no idea if there is distortiion that i'm not hearing....
> 
> ...


You don’t need to buy a DD1 for an amplifier running midbass and tweeters for a SQ type of setup. It’s helpful for a sub stage if you are into SPL competition but not really necessary otherwise. The basics is to set the sub amplifier to just under clipping and then to adjust the gains on the amplifier running the midbass and tweeters to match the sub stage against your target curve. This especially works well if you have a powerful amplifier for the front stage due to headroom on the midbass. 

The theory is it doesn’t take much power to match the SPL of say a 1000 watt sub stage especially if your speakers have higher sensitivity ratings. The subwoofer will always require the most power in your system and everything else has to match that sub stage to be balanced. If your midbass is rated at 90 db @ 1 watt than literally it produces 90 decibels at just 1 watt, 93 db at 2 watts, and 96 db at 4 watts. On music power it doesn’t take much to get loud with a midbass and especially a tweeter. The most a tweeter will use to match a system in this power range is about 8 watts max. If you have an amplifier rated for 75 wpc than setting the gain for it to clipping only makes you have to turn down the gain in the DSP a ton and you just raise the noise floor on the amplifier, which becomes noticeable on tweeters. So you are tricked into feeling good because you think setting the gain to clipping for the tweeter is the right thing to do and you get more noise and risk popping the tweeter in the event something does go wrong because the amplifier can send 75 watts to it with something like a speaker pop when the tweeter only needs less than 8 watts to match the 1000 watt subwoofer.

Just saying you will be much better off doing some research to better understand how things work and then use this knowledge to help you make informed decisions instead of just buying stuff hoping it helps. The other option is to hire professional tuner to help you maximize your systems potential. They can even help you understand the process so you can try that process later on your own.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

JCsAudio said:


> Just saying you will be much better off doing some research to better understand how things work and then use this knowledge to help you make informed decisions instead of just buying stuff hoping it helps. The other option is to hire professional tuner to help you maximize your systems potential. They can even help you understand the process so you can try that process later on your own.


And that is exactly why I'm here asking these questions!  The whole point of buying a MIC, learning how to use REW and spending tons of time looking like a weird-o in my car while tuning it is to try and learn how to do this stuff myself (with the help of you all, of course!). 

In my case, I have both mids and highs on the same channel (the 3.5", 2-way speakers in my dash) and mid-bass speakers in my doors are on another channel. While I am turning down the 3.5" speakers in my dash via the DSP, I am not doing that for the 6x9 door speakers - they are running full-tilt in terms of the DSP levels (other than reducing one to make it match the level of the other). I just want to make sure I'm getting the most volume I can, while still sounding good, that's all. I've always read that setting gains properly is super-important to get the most from your system.

Keep in mind - I dont' have real subs (and will not be getting real subs). All of my bass is coming from the 6x9 door speakers (and maybe some from the 6.5" rear-deck speakers at some point) and my little 8" under-seat sub. I think I have a total of 600 watts, *including* the sub.  Surprisingly, the 145W RMS under-seat sub seems to be able to keep up with and even surpass the levels produced by the door speakers - so it actually seems that I need to tune everything down towards the max volume produced by my 6x9" door speakers in my case (which comes back to me wanting to have the gains set properly so that I can get the most output from those door speakers).


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

jtrosky said:


> And that is exactly why I'm here asking these questions!  The whole point of buying a MIC, learning how to use REW and spending tons of time looking like a weird-o in my car while tuning it is to try and learn how to do this stuff myself (with the help of you all, of course!).
> 
> In my case, I have both mids and highs on the same channel (the 3.5", 2-way speakers in my dash) and mid-bass speakers in my doors are on another channel. While I am turning down the 3.5" speakers in my dash via the DSP, I am not doing that for the 6x9 door speakers - they are running full-tilt in terms of the DSP levels (other than reducing one to make it match the level of the other). I just want to make sure I'm getting the most volume I can, while still sounding good, that's all. I've always read that setting gains properly is super-important to get the most from your system.
> 
> Keep in mind - I dont' have real subs (and will not be getting real subs). All of my bass is coming from the 6x9 door speakers (and maybe some from the 6.5" rear-deck speakers at some point) and my little 8" under-seat sub. I think I have a total of 600 watts, *including* the sub.  Surprisingly, the 145W RMS under-seat sub seems to be able to keep up with and even surpass the levels produced by the door speakers - so it actually seems that I need to tune everything down towards the max volume produced by my 6x9" door speakers in my case (which comes back to me wanting to have the gains set properly so that I can get the most output from those door speakers).


But that 8” under seat subwoofer is a real subwoofer so you shouldn’t be making the 6x9 do any work below 70/80 Hz regardless. So off the top of my head you might want to look into band passing the 6x9 from 70-~500 Hz and HP the 3.5” coaxial speakers at the same 500 Hz. You may have to cross the 6x9 to the dash 3.5 as high as 1000 Hz depending on how it sounds. Use 24 db L-R filters for both HP and LP filters in the DSP. LP the subwoofer at 1/2 octave below the midbass so if the 6x9 is HP @ 80 Hz than LP the subwoofer at 60 Hz. This is where I would start if I was going to attempt tuning that system. 

So the order should be:

Check the polarity of your speakers to assure they are all in phase. + goes to red and - goes to black. Use a polarity checker (phone app) to verify this.

Measure the distance from your speakers (center of cone) to listening position (center of your head off headrest) and input this into your DSP according to the instructions for you particular DSP. Once this is done do not change them ever for anything. You set it and forget it. They can be a little off (1”) and you won’t hear it. Measure in a straight line and ignore things like seats (no bending around things). 

Then you play pink noise in REW with only the left side 6x9, 3.5, and subwoofer playing and EQ the left side to your house curve or whatever you like. Try not to boost frequencies, only cut but you can boost some in certain situations.

Now mute the left side once you are finished and work on the right side so that is matches the left side in FR as closely as possible.

Wife is yelling, have to go so PM me and I’ll give you more.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

JCsAudio said:


> But that 8” under seat subwoofer is a real subwoofer so you shouldn’t be making the 6x9 do any work below 70/80 Hz regardless. So off the top of my head you might want to look into band passing the 6x9 from 70-~500 Hz and HP the 3.5” coaxial speakers at the same 500 Hz. You may have to cross the 6x9 to the dash 3.5 as high as 1000 Hz depending on how it sounds. Use 24 db L-R filters for both HP and LP filters in the DSP. LP the subwoofer at 1/2 octave below the midbass so if the 6x9 is HP @ 80 Hz than LP the subwoofer at 60 Hz. This is where I would start if I was going to attempt tuning that system.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great info - thank you! When I say that I'm getting bass from the 6x9 door speakers, I guess I should call it "mid-bass". 

RIght now, I'm actually not too far off what you've stated. I have the 6x9 door speakers band-passed at 80hz / 450hz, the 3.5" dash speakers high-passed at 450hz and the sub low-passed at 80hz. All 24db LinkwitzRiley.

But I really wasn't sure how to know if those crossover points were actually "correct". Maybe I'll try crossing them over at a higher frequency, just to see what that does. Actually, before I do that, I'll adjust the sub crossover down to 60hz and then get some good measurements and post them here, along with some other measurements (such as what things look like before any EQ).

Time alignment has been set by measurements already. 

One thing that I've been curious about. I've found that the dash speakers come from the factory wired in reverse-polarity - and when I replaced the dash speakers, I wasn't aware of that - so they are still reverse poliarity now with the aftermarket speakers. To "account" for this, I just reversed the polarity for them in my DSP (which should put them back to "normal" polarity) - would that still work ok? Or would it be better to *physically* correct the polarity at the speakers themselves?

Again, thank you very much. I'll post some follow-up graphs of where I'm at next - along with recapping the exact setup (speakers, gear, etc). I'd rather keep all of this on the forums instead of PM so that some other noob may also gain something from it in the future, if that is OK with you.

Thanks again - will be back in touch!


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> JCsAudio said:
> 
> 
> > But that 8” under seat subwoofer is a real subwoofer so you shouldn’t be making the 6x9 do any work below 70/80 Hz regardless. So off the top of my head you might want to look into band passing the 6x9 from 70-~500 Hz and HP the 3.5” coaxial speakers at the same 500 Hz. You may have to cross the 6x9 to the dash 3.5 as high as 1000 Hz depending on how it sounds. Use 24 db L-R filters for both HP and LP filters in the DSP. LP the subwoofer at 1/2 octave below the midbass so if the 6x9 is HP @ 80 Hz than LP the subwoofer at 60 Hz. This is where I would start if I was going to attempt tuning that system.
> ...


What matters most is that they are correct polarity sonically. How you do that, digital or physical does not matter.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

drop1 said:


> What matters most is that they are correct polarity sonically. How you do that, digital or physical does not matter.


Thanks - I assumed that was the case, but I wasn't 100% sure.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

The correct way is to wire them according to the markings on the speaker but you can also reverse the polarity in the DSP to get them all in phase/the same phase. You can download an app with a polarity checker that uses clicks with your microphone to verify if it is correct. It costs a few bucks but is well worth it. AudioControl has one of these apps and I think I paid like $5 at the time. 

You set the crossovers according to what the speakers are designed to play most efficient in and the beaming characteristics of each driver. The larger the cone the sooner the speaker will beam so in order for you to easily tune it you want the reflected sounds to be as close to the same as the direct sounds from the speaker. This is the best when the dispersion of the speaker is wide but as the speaker goes into beaming as it plays higher the direct off axis sound becomes more different than the reflected sounds. The lower you can LP that 6x9, the better but you have to HP the 3.5” in an area that it can comfortably play the lower octaves without distortion. Usually a good place to start is just above the fs of the mid but the further you are away from the fs, the less distortion the speaker will have. If you had an active tweeter than 1.5 to 2 times the fs of the tweeter is where you can start to HP a tweeter but the higher the happier the tweeter will be. So your constraints are beaming of the bigger driver and the resonant frequency and associated distortion of the next bigger driver. Get it right between these constraints and you have your crossover point.

It’s really as simple as that! 

Also, make sure the back wave from that 3.5 in your dash doesn’t meet the front wave or you’ll get some cancellations from it.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

JCsAudio said:


> The correct way is to wire them according to the markings on the speaker but you can also reverse the polarity in the DSP to get them all in phase/the same phase. You can download an app with a polarity checker that uses clicks with your microphone to verify if it is correct. It costs a few bucks but is well worth it. AudioControl has one of these apps and I think I paid like $5 at the time.


Yeah, I'll eventually fix the wiring on the speaker iteself, but wanted to know if the DSP phase change would be OK for now since I have to tear the dash apart to fix them the right way. The problem was that there were absolutely no markings or any hints of positive/negative on the stock speaker - and I just used speaker wire adapters from Crutchfield so that I didn't have to cut any wires. The speaker wire adapters "retained" the stock polarity - I just had no clue that the stock setup was reverse poliarity for the dash until I bought a $10 polarity-checking tool on Amazon (nice to have!) - does the same thing as the phone app, but it's a physical, dedciated tool. I'm sure you've seen them before. That was purchased before I had any plans of all of this tuning, $100 microphones, REW, etc...  




JCsAudio said:


> You set the crossovers according to what the speakers are designed to play most efficient in and the beaming characteristics of each driver. The larger the cone the sooner the speaker will beam so in order for you to easily tune it you want the reflected sounds to be as close as the direct sounds. This is the best when the dispersion of the speaker is wide but as the speaker goes into beaming as it plays higher the reflected sound becomes more different than the direct sound. The lower you can LP that 6x9 the better but you have to HP the 3.5” in an area that it can comfortably play the lower octaves without distortion. Usually a good place to start is just above the fs of the mid but the further you are away from the fs the less distortion the speaker will have. If you had an active tweeter than 1.5 to 2 times fs is where you can HP a tweeter but the higher the happier the tweeter will be. So your constraints are beaming of the bigger driver and resonant frequency and distortion of the next bigger driver. Get it right between these and you have your crossover point.
> 
> 
> 
> It’s really as simple as that!


I've seen this information during my research (been doing a LOT of research, trust me!), but the problem is that with these inexpensive speakers, the manufacturer doesn't list things like the speaker "fs" values. If I knew those, I could approach the setting of the crossover more "scientifically" - but I have no idea. Hell, they don't even give you as much as a frequency response graph or even state the +-db value for the frequency response.  They do list a frequncy response, but I'm sure they are not very accurate (for example, they list the 3.5" speaker frequency range as 85hz - 21,000hz) - but I can guarantee you that it doesn't go down to 85hz with any accuracy!. In fact, the bass blockers they give you are for 196hz.  Since the 6x9 is a two-way speaker, they only list the overall frequency response - not the response of the individual drivers.

I did try setting the crossover point to 250hz at one point, but did not like the results, which is when I went back to 450hz.

I'm not looking for perfection here. I mean the system actually sounds pretty damn good (to me) with my "by-ear, raise bass and treble by a few dB" tune - but I'm sure that it would have to get better if *properly* tuned, right??


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

jtrosky said:


> Yeah, I'll eventually fix the wiring on the speaker iteself, but wanted to know if the DSP phase change would be OK for now since I have to tear the dash apart to fix them the right way. The problem was that there were absolutely no markings or any hints of positive/negative on the stock speaker - and I just used speaker wire adapters from Crutchfield so that I didn't have to cut any wires. The speaker wire adapters "retained" the stock polarity - I just had no clue that the stock setup was reverse poliarity for the dash until I bought a $10 polarity-checking tool on Amazon (nice to have!) - does the same thing as the phone app, but it's a physical, dedciated tool. I'm sure you've seen them before. That was purchased before I had any plans of all of this tuning, $100 microphones, REW, etc...  right??


I wouldn’t worry too much about switching the wire at this point if you fixed the polarity in the DSP. By fixing the polarity you fix/put everything in phase so only change the wire if you really want to because otherwise it makes no difference in the end. 






jtrosky said:


> I've seen this information during my research (been doing a LOT of research, trust me!), but the problem is that with these inexpensive speakers, the manufacturer doesn't list things like the speaker "fs" values. If I knew those, I could approach the setting of the crossover more "scientifically" - but I have no idea. Hell, they don't even give you as much as a frequency response graph or even state the +-db value for the frequency response.  They do list a frequncy response, but I'm sure they are not very accurate (for example, they list the 3.5" speaker frequency range as 85hz - 21,000hz) - but I can guarantee you that it doesn't go down to 85hz with any accuracy!. In fact, the bass blockers they give you are for 196hz.  Since the 6x9 is a two-way speaker, they only list the overall frequency response - not the response of the individual drivers.
> 
> I did try setting the crossover point to 250hz at one point, but did not like the results, which is when I went back to 450hz.
> 
> I'm not looking for perfection here. I mean the system actually sounds pretty damn good (to me) with my "by-ear, raise bass and treble by a few dB" tune - but I'm sure that it would have to get better if *properly* tuned, right??


Try band passing the 6x9 from 80 to 500 and see what that does. You’re well below beaming of the 6x9 and in safe territory for the 3.5. Even with 1000 Hz you should have wide dispersion from that 6x9. It’s very possible to get this to sound very good with a good tune. I’ve done some amazing stuff with a DSP, and an amplifier on stock speakers and had people in disbelief when I told them that after they had a listen. If you ever change things out focus on getting a good tweeter because distortion from a tweeter is very noticeable, especially a tweeter used for a two way active setup. If you someday decide to make an improvement than I would consider changing that 3.5 coaxial speaker for something better. That $150 you were about to spend on a DD1 could buy a set of SB Acoustics SB29RDCN neo magnet tweeters, an excellent large format tweeter from Madisound. 

Keep researching and trying. I have a feeling you can do much better. It took me a long time to learn too because there is a lot of know and I’m still learning and having fun doing it too.

Also, once you get the tune dialed in and you want more bass try putting a LP butterworth filter at 12 db octave at 60 Hz or 1/2 octave below the HP for the midbass and see if that helps. Sometimes this works out great. Keep the midbass HP filter at 24 80 Hz 24 db Linkwitz–Riley filter though.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

jtrosky said:


> Hi all - new DIYMA user here. I recently installed a Rockford Fosgate DSR1 and an Alpine XD600/6v2 amp in my 2018 Dodge Challenger. Everything works as expected and I've done some basic "by ear" tuning, but I want to explore some of the more "technical" and "proper" ways to tune.
> 
> Since the DSR1 is controlled from a mobile device, I'm trying to stick with the "mobie device" tools in order to get a baseline tune and then adjust for preference from there.
> 
> ...


#1) Properly individually eq those speakers, then using a 450hz test tone and a db meter (Audiotool, REW) set the gains to match the db levels, properly set the 6x9 gain first, then match the 3.5's to that db.
#2) Someone else said it, use REW.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

jtrosky said:


> Ok, so after some further testing, I've found that I'm getting drastically-different readings from different Android devices - even though I'm using the same microphone, so I've given up on the Android/IMM-6 combination of doing measurements.
> 
> Insteading of wasting my time, I just ordered a miniDSP UMIK-1 and will find a device to run REW on. I was really hoping to just use a simple RTA on an Android device, but i'm since every Android device is reporting drastically different results with the same MIC, it's just not going to work. I'm assuming the audio "internals" of these devices must really wreck havoc with the TRRS mic measurements.
> 
> I REALLY didn't want to spend ~$100 on a MIC, but it is what is.... I should have just listened to those that are more experienced with this stuff from the start.


You can load a calibration file for the mic in Audiotool.


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## thedynoguy (Jan 5, 2019)

I'll let you know what I run into. I'm canning my DSR1, and installing the PacAudio interface with Helix DSP.3 through a toslink cable. I'm just fed up with the DSR at this point. I'm a week away from getting the rest of the equipment to begin the changeover. I'll keep you posted... 



jtrosky said:


> Unfortunately, I've already gone too far down the rabbit hole that I'm in (DSR-1, REW, UMIK-1, etc). To switch to that miniDSP product, I'd need to spend another $1200+ (dump the DSR-1, get a PAC Audio Amp Pro 4 and this MiniDSP product - then re-wire everything, etc).
> 
> I may have missed it in the description, but I'm assuming that MiniDSP system does auto-tuning?
> 
> The miniDSP products seem like great products. The DSR-1 lured me due to it's cost and "on-paper" functionality. It's a decent system (especially considering the integration aspect and cost!), but DSP's like Helix and MiniDSP are just so much more "mature", "standard" and bug-free it seems. Once I get things setup properly, the DSR-1 will be fine for me - but it's a very steep learning curve to get the most out of it. Even something like setting the PEQ according to what REW recommends is a real pain since you can't just key in values (EQ freq, gain, Q) in the DSR-1 app - plus you can't use the exact same freqs that REW recommends - unless you setup the DSR-1 PEQ freqs as "Manual" entries in the REW "EQ FIlters" screen and only have REW adjust gain and Q of those freqs - plus, that way I can easily do the same thing on left and right channels (since all freqs will match) - such as raise 120hz by 2db, for example). Have to work around a lot of the DSR-1 limitations when using REW to auto-tune.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ha! So I went out this morning to get some measurements of the different measurement-based tunes (one corrected using freqs, gains and Qs recommended by REW and one corrected using the DSR-1 default PEQ freqs, with gain and Q adjustments recommended by REW - both end up looking basically the same though) to post here and after looking at the left-side measurement, I quickly realized that something was very wrong.... Here I had put a +6db into my PEQ instead of a -6db for one of the bands (and this particular band used a Q of 1.0, so the effect was pretty dramatic)!  ooppss....

So I've fixed that and will re-measure shortly so that I can show some graphs of what I'm hearing. I'll be able to post graphs of the "measurement" based tune, which doesn't sound very good to me - along with measurements from the "raise bass and treble by a few DB" tune that acutally *does* sound good to me *and* some completely un-EQ'd measurements - just so you all can see what I'm working with to start. Maybe the comparisons will help someone to help me figure out why the measurement-based tune just doesn't sound good to me.  

Even though the bass and mid measurements look pretty good to me after individual EQ, I just don't seem to have enough treble with the measurement-based tunes. Maybe I truly do just have upper freq hearing loss that requires extra treble for things to sound good to me - who knows? Maybe it's just as simple as boosing the upper freqs a little with the measurement-based tunes - and that will allow them to sound even better than the simple "By ear" tune I like. We'll see what you guys think after I post the graphs.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ok, finally, for your laughing pleasure, some graphs of my system (take it easy on me - I'm new at this!!!). 

Quick recap of my system:

*2018 Dodge Challenger*
- 6-speaker (+ under-seat sub) system
- (2) 3.5" Infinity Reference two-way speakers in dash (HP at 450hz - 24db LR slope)
- (2) 6"x9" Infinity Reference two-way speakers in doors (BP at 80hz and 450hz - 24db LR slope)
- (2) 6.5" Infinity Reference two-way speakers in rear-deck (Leaving these out of the picture for now)
- (1) JBL BassPro SL under-seat subwoofer (relatively new - still trying to tune this into system - LP at 70hz - 24db LR slope)​
*BEFORE - Here are the "before" graphs - no EQ done - crossovers, levels and time-alignment set*

*Left Side*









*Right Side*









*Both Sides*







​

*AFTER - Here are teh "after" graphs - EQ's done by setting DSR-1 default freq bands in REW and letting REW adjust gains and Q's to Hanatsu curve*

*Left Side*









*Right Side*









*Both Sides*







​
The "after" isn't actually as bad as I thought. I definitely feel that I need to increase treble a little (just bumping up treble from head-unit one line seemed to help a lot), but I can probably make this work with a few adjustments. Will try spending some time with it....

Comments?

Thank you!!!


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

You're still in the realm of sq. I'd dig out a bit more around 200 hz and get it a bit closer to flat. That will add clarity. If you want more treble just reduce the roll off by a couple db.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

I can see now why you are complaining about not enough treble as that house curve is taking a nose dive. Try the AudioFrog house curve and if you still want more treble than don’t let it taper as much towards the end. https://www.audiofrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Audiofrog-Target-Curve-REW.csv


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Also can you change the resolution on the rta. At minimum I'd like to see in 5db increments and 24 points per octave. That will tell us a lot more about what you need.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Thanks guys - at least I know I'm on the right track (I think?).  

I honestly had no idea which house curve to "aim" for. I think I took the Hanatsu curve simply because it seemed to be the most bass-heavy. While I don't have big subs in an actual enclosure in the trunk, I still do like a somewhat bass-heavy sound (I prefer to call it a "warm" sounding system) - and I figured I'd want to emphesize the bass as much as possible considering the "limited" sub that I do have. 

Honestly, I've actually been pretty impressed with the JBL BassPro SL. While it's not going to give you *deep* bass, it actually does a really good job considering what it is. At the very least, it takes all of that strain off of the 6x9 door speakers (which means it should also help to reduce vibration-related sounds from the doors, which aren't deadened yet). Those coming from a big sub in the trunk powered by 1000's of watts obviously wouldn't be happy with the under-seat sub, but for me, it's quite an improvement.

Now I'm starting to see why the DSR-1 PEQ is not as great as it seems on paper - because even though I have 31 bands per channel, I can't utilize them with very much flexibility. A lot of times, many of the 31 bands go un-used when I could use them elsewhere in the frequency spectrum to "fine tune" things if I was able to use them with any frequency I wanted. REW kind of goes crazy when setting up the GAINs and Qs (two bands right next to each other doing the exact oppoiste in terms of gain, but with wildly different Q's in order to try and "level" things out). Makes it hard to make small adjustments where I want to later....

But at the very least, at least i'm starting out with a much better response curve that I would have without it.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

drop1 said:


> Also can you change the resolution on the rta. At minimum I'd like to see in 5db increments and 24 points per octave. That will tell us a lot more about what you need.


Yeah, I *meant* to make the graphs 5db increments (that what I like to view the response with) - but obviously failed when creating the pictures with the little camera icon.  Not sure what you mean by "24 points per octave", but I'll take a look and figure out how to do that.

Is 6db smoothing enough, or should I show 12db or every 24db instead (or is that what you mean by "24 points per octave - 1/24 smoothing?)


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

Most of the target curves I've seen have a roll-off on the high end. Myself & people I know don't roll off on the high end. Try to aim more flat or slight incline after 4khz.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Actually, would it be easier for everyone involed if I just share the REW files? That way you can look at things how *you* normally like to look at them?


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Truthunter said:


> Most of the target curves I've seen have a roll-off on the high end. Myself & people I know don't roll off on the high end. Try to aim more flat or slight incline after 4khz.


This is basically what I do too and I start to level out around 160-200 Hz from sub to midbass and taper off after 6k slightly because I like a little more treble.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> Thanks guys - at least I know I'm on the right track (I think?). ?
> 
> I honestly had no idea which house curve to "aim" for. I think I took the Hanatsu curve simply because it seemed to be the most bass-heavy. While I don't have big subs in an actual enclosure in the trunk, I still do like a somewhat bass-heavy sound (I prefer to call it a "warm" sounding system) - and I figured I'd want to emphesize the bass as much as possible considering the "limited" sub that I do have.
> 
> ...



When you get it right it will jump out at you. I like bass too and forgot to unmute my subs last night. I did not even notice they were off until I played a dance track.

That's what you are after. The music will sound huge and full and wont even "need" subs to thump you in the chest. 

Believe me, once you get there you'll understand.

I've said it before, go find the best 2 channel home system in a showroom you can find and jam with it. 

Its It's something you have to hear for yourself.

When I started this all my sq tunes sounded thin and weak. That's because they were wrong. 

It should sound just like it does when you are standing in front of a band. That same power and feel. I play bass and trust me when I tell you most bassist remove subbass not add it. That power you feel at a concert comes from much higher up in frequency. It comes from the attach of the notes and most instruments attack starts in the treble or high mids. 

That's why it's so important to get a smooth response. Left to right balance is also critical. 

Have you ever been to a concert ? That's it. That's the sound.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

jtrosky said:


> Thanks guys - at least I know I'm on the right track (I think?).
> 
> I honestly had no idea which house curve to "aim" for. I think I took the Hanatsu curve simply because it seemed to be the most bass-heavy. While I don't have big subs in an actual enclosure in the trunk, I still do like a somewhat bass-heavy sound (I prefer to call it a "warm" sounding system) - and I figured I'd want to emphesize the bass as much as possible considering the "limited" sub that I do have.
> 
> ...


I'm going to second JCsAudio recommendation of the AudioFrog house curve, it's very nice sounding, and fits your description of warm.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

ckirocz28 said:


> jtrosky said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks guys - at least I know I'm on the right track (I think?). ?
> ...


Third. I run very close the AF curve but with more low bass. About 8 db up at 35hz.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

I’ll second what drop1 says also and get out and establish a baseline for what a sound qaulity system sounds like. A good home audio system is a good baseline. There are also meets posted on this forum from time to time and it’s real interesting to go to these and get some listening time in other like minded people’s cars.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

drop1 said:


> Third. I run very close the AF curve but with more low bass. About 8 db up at 35hz.


If I'm not mistaken, the AF curve is at nearly +10 db at 35 hz, are you suggesting another +8 db?


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

JCsAudio said:


> I’ll second what drop1 says also and get out and establish a baseline for what a sound qaulity system sounds like. A good home audio system is a good baseline. There are also meets posted on this forum from time to time and it’s real interesting to go to these and get some listening time in other like minded people’s cars.


I've met so many people that have never heard a good system. We all have an idea if what we think is good sound but when you hear a great truly system it changes things so much. 
Just dont go falling in love with $200,000 speakers LOL.

I sit in front of a pair of Focal 3 way monitors every day. I've come to accept my tuning skills will never be good enough to achieve that in my truck but I've heard others get really close. 

I had a lot of help on the eq a couple years ago. My cousin is a Grammy nominated mix engineer. 
That dude did more with 5 bands of eq across the whole system than I can do with 30 bands. The way he nailed the tonality was incredible and it took him maybe 5 minutes. I had done all the dirty works as far as set up went but that final touch was amazing.
I'm off on a tangent. Sorry.

Definitely go listen to the best system you can. I can't preach that enough. If I had done that 20 years ago I could have saved myself so much trouble.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

I believe my truck is as close to perfect as the install allows. I saved my original tune, prior to the SQ 1 seat and 2 seat tunes, for an a/b comparison. All I could say was “Holy Crap”. I’ve never sat in a world class SQ car and listened. Hopefully I will soon in Nashville. However, I’d bet any amount of money that it won’t sound drastically different (better) than my truck. It is the most accurate reproduction of sound that I’ve ever heard. My home system (Yamaha and Klipsch) is close, but I’d rather sit and listen in my truck now. 

It took 2.5 straight days of tuning to get it where’s its at. I paid one of the, if not the, best tuners in the state to dial it in. What he accomplished is nothing short of magical. I only thought I knew what music in an automobile was capable of...I couldn’t have been more wrong. I’ll be competing throughout the rest of the year and will try to earn enough points for nationals. I’ll compete in KY either way. For a “Street” vehicle, I couldn’t be more blown away.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ignore. Posted in wrong thread.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Man, I'm ready to give up. I've tried setting my door/dash crossovers at 350hz, 450hz, 700hz and 900hz. I can actually match target curves the best with the 350hz crossover, but then it just sounds like most of the sound is coming from the dash, no matter how much I turn down the dash speakers (while still keeping appropriate treble). I've tried multiple different "target curves" including the AudioFrog curve, but whenever I "flatten out" the speaker response to match the target curves, it just doesn't sound very good - it sounds "lifeless" and bland.

Everything I'm looking at in REW after tuning and measuring says that it *should* sound good, but it doesn't. 

However, if I simply raise the last 8 bands of my dash speaekrs (5000hz+) and the first few bands of my door speakers (80hz->315hz) a few notches (between .5 and 2.5db) - like the good 'ol "smile" setup with a GEQ, it sounds great. 

I've spent COUNTLESS hours taking measurements and making adjustments and it just doesn't sound good to me when I tune it "correctly". 

Is it just maybe because that's the "sound" that I'm "used to"?? 

I think I'm going to measure my "by ear" tune to see what it looks like and then maybe try to setup a target curve with those general features? At least that way, I can flatten out some of the spectrum while still getting the general "sound signature" that I seem to like? Not sure what else to do at this point. Frustrating. Just can't pinpoint what I'm missing...

It's not that I don't know what "good" sounds like - like I said, I have a decent home system - but I just can't get it to sound good when tuned "correctly".

I've been using the "90 degree" calibration file for my UMIK1 since I hold the MIC straight up and down while tuning - is that correct?

Thanks.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Are you holding the mic in the same position when measuring while it’s pointing upwards?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I'm moving the MIC back and forth from ear to ear while it keeps averaging (pink noise playing) - while always keeping the mic straight up and down as I move it back and forth - like I've seen Kyle do in his videos.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> Man, I'm ready to give up. I've tried setting my door/dash crossovers at 350hz, 450hz, 700hz and 900hz. I can actually match target curves the best with the 350hz crossover, but then it just sounds like most of the sound is coming from the dash, no matter how much I turn down the dash speakers (while still keeping appropriate treble). I've tried multiple different "target curves" including the AudioFrog curve, but whenever I "flatten out" the speaker response to match the target curves, it just doesn't sound very good - it sounds "lifeless" and bland.
> 
> Everything I'm looking at in REW after tuning and measuring says that it *should* sound good, but it doesn't. ?
> 
> ...


Dont sweat it. Make it sound good to you. This is my daily for electronic ,Rock and pop. It sounds larger than life, absoluty huge. I posted in the lowest resolution so you could see the actual curve.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

drop1 said:


> Dont sweat it. Make it sound good to you. This is my daily for electronic ,Rock and pop. It sounds larger than life, absoluty huge. I posted in the lowest resolution so you could see the actual curve.


That is actually pretty similar to what my "sounds good to me" curve looks like. I think I'll just go ahead and create a custom target curve and tune to that and see what happens. 

Interestingly, I've noticed a few things:

1. My mic seems to drop off over 12.5k (UMIK1)? Either that or my speakers aren't outputting anything over 12.5k, which I can't believe is the case.
2. I can never get REW to use filters above 12k, even when I manually add them and they could/should be used to help my response match the curve above 12.5k. Not sure why... REW never seems to use all 20 bands either when I have it auto-EQ - it always seems to leave at least two "blank".

Something else that I just realized with the DSR1. While the Android app only lets you select certain frequencies and gains in .5 increments with it's PEQ, the PerfectTune app has an export/import function - and with it, you can actually use any freqs and gain settings you want. You can export the tune (exports to text file), manually enter the data and then import the tune and the custom values you use actually show up in PerfectTune correctly - even though you can't set them values via the app... Just a handy trick if you ever wanted to set very specific values in PerfecTune that you couldn't otherwise set from the app interface itself. I think most of the DSR1 limitations are mainly app-related - not hardware related. So technically, the 31 band PEQ can be used like it can with a Helix, for example - where I could let REW pick freqs, gains and Q's - and match them exactly in the DSR1. PITA to do, but can be done.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > Dont sweat it. Make it sound good to you. This is my daily for electronic ,Rock and pop. It sounds larger than life, absoluty huge. I posted in the lowest resolution so you could see the actual curve.
> ...


Are you setting the dsp setting to generic in REW? 

I have a major dip around 10khz in my truck the rew doesnt see.

I dont believe your tweeters are missing the frequcies more likely it's a phase thing. Those cant be boosted and if it's bad I believe REW sees the lack of input and doesnt try. It will do a max 6db boost but if theres nothing there to boost it wont even try. I'm just guessing. I have a spot at 400hz and another at 10khz REW wont touch even if I put the entire reading above the target curve and do 100 percent cutting.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

drop1 said:


> Are you setting the dsp setting to generic in REW?
> 
> I have a major dip around 10khz in my truck the rew doesnt see.
> 
> I dont believe your tweeters are missing the frequcies more likely it's a phase thing. Those cant be boosted and if it's bad I believe REW sees the lack of input and doesnt try. It will do a max 6db boost but if theres nothing there to boost it wont even try. I'm just guessing. I have a spot at 400hz and another at 10khz REW wont touch even if I put the entire reading above the target curve and do 100 percent cutting.


Yes, I'm setting the DSP to Generic in REW. I've actually become quite proficient with the REW RTA and EQ filters.  

The good news is that I created a new "target curve" customized to my liking - and now it sounds even better than my "by ear GEQ-style smile tune".  I swaer that I must have a hearing loss at the upper frequencies and they need to be higher than normal to sound good to me. I'm just happy that I'm finally making some progress. 

Thanks to everyone for all of the help - after I get things dialed in a little more, I'll post what target curve worked for me... 

The DSR1 sure does fight you all of the way though. Little stuff like when you change a profile, sometimes it doesn't actually change *everything*! Sometimes values from the old profile "stick" - even though the PerfectTune app shows you the correct settings! Can really make it hard to tune properly. I'm learning more and more how to work around it's shortcomings, but man....


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> I'm moving the MIC back and forth from ear to ear while it keeps averaging (pink noise playing) - while always keeping the mic straight up and down as I move it back and forth - like I've seen Kyle do in his videos.


I find spending more time around the ears helps. I figure what the mic pics up going around the front of my head is not as important as what it pics up at my ears.
What I do is small ~3-4" figure 8s around 1 ear for 15sec, then move to the other ear and do the same for 15sec, then I go back to the first ear and keep the mic right at my ear opening while I move my head & mic at the same time forward/backward & side to side a few inches in each direction for another 15sec, then move back to the other ear and do the same. It ends up being about a minute of averages for each measurement.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

So something else that was causing me grief - besides the fact that I was using target curves that weren't "right" for me.... I was cutting way too many dB off of my midbass speakers while trying to get REW to match the target curve somewhat-well (due to the roller-coaster frequency response). While I'd get a close match to the target curve, I'd lose a LOT of volume in the process! I've also found that you shouldn't be afraid to add a few "manual" EQ filters to fix some things that REW doesn't, for whatever reason. For my door midbass speakers, REW didn't seem to care that much about matching the "back" part of the midbass curve (the left side) - and I'm finding that it's just not as important, since that part is actually something that the sub is mostly handling anyway.

My radio is starting to sound REALLY good now (at least to me). 

Here are some pics of the LEFT and RIGHT midbass speaker:

LEFT:










RIGHT:










Before, if I would try to get REW to match the target curve more "completely", I would have to cut the dB by up to 5dB or more. This was problematic. 


EDIT: Oh - by the way - what the hell do the dB numbers in the EQ filter window "legend" mean? One might say "39.4dB" in that legend, but that same measurement in the "main" window will have numbers like 73.34dB! So many different dB numbers throughout REW and I can't find anything in the documentation to say what they each are actually indicating...


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

jtrosky said:


> *SNIP* I swaer that I must have a hearing loss at the upper frequencies and they need to be higher than normal to sound good to me. I'm just happy that I'm finally making some progress. *SNIP*


Same here. If I roll off from 10k down like most people do, it sounds really dull and totally uncrisp and too mid heavy. I generally have a flat response curve all the way till the 2" driver rolls off naturally ~18k. I can't hear **** past 14k-15k anyways.

Maybe because I run a two way front as well. I just don't want to spend the time on a 3 way tweeter when my 2" plays far higher than I Can realistically hear.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Wow... So I just went on my first real drive since getting my target curve and associated tune dialed in a little more towards my liking. All I can say is "WOW"s. It's amazing how much of a difference getting the tune "just right" can make!  It's not even that the measurements look *that* different in REW, but just the slight differences make a HUGE difference in the overall sound quality level.

I'm sure I won't quit tweaking just yet, but even if I did, I'd be VERY happy with the system as it is right now. 

Thank you all SO much for helping me out along the way - I honestly couldn't have done it without you guys!


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> Wow... So I just went on my first real drive since getting my target curve and associated tune dialed in a little more towards my liking. All I can say is "WOW"s. It's amazing how much of a difference getting the tune "just right" can make! ? It's not even that the measurements look *that* different in REW, but just the slight differences make a HUGE difference in the overall sound quality level.
> 
> I'm sure I won't quit tweaking just yet, but even if I did, I'd be VERY happy with the system as it is right now. ?
> 
> Thank you all SO much for helping me out along the way - I honestly couldn't have done it without you guys!


Tiny adjustments are what we do. 

I have some tips for you if you have a few bands of unused eq. It works better when its across the whole system but can work on a driver to driver basis. 

Find you about 5 unused bands and set them at 80hz, 300hz, 900hz, 2000gz and 6000hz.

Set the q to 1. Then gently boost and cut each one while you are listening. 
This is the easiest/fastest way to nail down the tone . It uses broad strokes and can really push the tonality and clarity to another level. We are talking 1 db at a time. Take away just a little too much and put it back stopping when its perfect.
Repeat this 3 or 4 times and it will bring your system to life


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Thanks - that's good info to have. That is one thing that I wish the DSR1 did better - "global" EQ. It's hard to EQ each speaker one a time and really hear and compare the differences.

However, what I *can* easily do is this... The DSR1 has what they call a "Basic" tuning mode where it gives you 7 bands of "global" EQ - however, I have it setup so that those are actually controlled via the head-unit Bass/Mid/Treble controls (you can either have the head-unit bass/mid/treble work *or* the 7-band "global" EQ via the PerfectTune app - but not both). I chose having the head-unit bass/mid/treble active so that I can quickly and easily make minor "global" adjustments as needed. At least I *think* the head-unit bass/mid/treble and the 7 global bands are "linked" - still need to test that theory now that I can view and modify the PerfectTune config directly via the export/import functions.

The "default" 7 global bands are:

- 63
- 160
- 400
- 1000
- 2500
- 6400
- 15900

All with a default Q of 1.414.

However, I believe that I can customize those bands and their Q's via the export/import function - and still be able to control them via the bass/mid/treble controls on the head-unit.

I'll have to do some testing to see if this all works like I expect it to. Normally, PerfectTune doesn't allow you to change any of the bands or Q's for the 7 global bands - but I can export a profile, change them to whatever I want and then re-import the profile - and then I *think* I can actually adjust the gains for them "on the fly" via my head-unit bass/mid/treble (to a point - I think it uses those three controls to adjust the 7 bands - so it will be a compromise).

Lots to learn and figure out yet.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ok, so I have a question for you guys... The stock system in my 2018 Challenger, which has an upgraded "276W Premium 6-Speaker Alpine System" from the factory (that is 276W MAX - not RMS, by the way!) comes with the 3.5" dash speakers wired in reverse polarity (both of them). This whole time, I've been tuning by putting them back into normal polarity via the DSR1 DSP (since the aftermarket speakers are still wired in reverse polarity since I didn't realize it until after I replace them).

Well, today after tinkering with my tune some more, I decided to try putting them back to reverse polarity while listening to some music. I tried back and forth between normal and reverse polarity during multiple songs. To my surprise, putting them back to reverse polarity really made things sound significantly better - while still keeping the image dead center.

While tuning the system, I kept having a "harshness" from the dash speakers, no matter what I do (especially at very high volumes during certain songs). It's hard to explain what I'm talking about, but things definitely get better when they are in reverse polarity - the overall "tone" just sounds better. 

So my question is this - does this maybe indicate a reason why the dash speakers were wired in reverse polarity from the factory (maybe something to do with the 3.5" mids firing right into the windshield or something)? Is there anything "wrong" about doing it that way? I mean , in the end, if it sounds better, it sounds better, right? 

Just wanted to get some input on this...

EDIT: Meh... scratch that - didn't sound so great with reverse polarity after all... Took an actual drive and wasn't as impressed. Will keep messing with it though...


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ok, I know I mentioned this before, but I'm really curious as to the best way to ensure that I'm not clipping. I set my JL Audio amp gains via the "multimeter method", which I know is not the most accurate. Other than using an oscilloscope, I'm not sure how to know for sure if I'm "safe" at higher volumes.

After using REW to EQ the speakers, then measuring, then having REW EQ the speakers again, then measuring again and having REW EQ the speakers one last time, I really am not sure exactly how much gain REW added to each of the channels. It may add 6db of gain at one spot the first time, with a low Q value - but also subtract 24db of gain with a low Q value later that might lower the first overall gain increase.

How do I know if I'm really pushing the amp to clip at certain frequencies? The ending "overall" EQ curve may show everything as less than +6db, but from the amps point of view, is that really the case? This part is still confusing to me. Like I mentioned previously, I want to get the most volume that I can out of my 6x9 mid-bass speakers - but I also don't want to destroy them by clipping at high volumes.

Here are the EQ curves from the Rockford Fosgate PerfecTune app for each of my front speakers (dash and door):

Front Dash (3.5" mid/high speakers):

















Door Speakers (6"x9" mid-bass speakers):

















When having REW do EQ, I usually use a flatness of 1, max individual boost of 6db and max overall boost of 6db - but like I said, I'll run a speaker response through REW up to three different times, so those limits are kind of meaningless with more than one EQ session, I would think?

Thoughts?

EDIT: Those screenshots didn't come out perfectly. The labels on the left side of the screen a 6db and the one below that is *-*3db.... Just FYi.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I have been able to EQ my left and right dash speakers really well though (at least I think it's done really well!). 

Before and afters....


*BEFORE*









*AFTER*


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> I have been able to EQ my left and right dash speakers really well though (at least I think it's done really well!). ?
> 
> Before and afters....
> 
> ...



Looks good. Have you measured the combined response of each set of drivers ?

Doing so can reveal timing issues. If all of a sudden you combine them and find the response isnt staying relatively smooth you likely have a timing issue. It's an easy way to tell. 

Measuring with a tape will get you close but close is still compromised. It will never sound as smooth, tall, deep or wide as when you nail the timing. Just a touch our of time causes comb filtering and results in a slightly blurry image. The detail in the ambiance really suffers.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Yes, actually the combined speaker pair graphs (left/right dash only, left/right door only) look VERY close to the original single-speaker graphs - just a little louder and with a combination of the very small peaks and dips of each separate speaker. I've also not been able to identify any significant "nulls" that would be the result of cancelation or anyting like that. All in all, the system seems to be doing what it's supposed to. I guess using LR 24db crossover slopes help a lot there (from what I've been reading). When I play all speakers, it basically looks the same as playing a single side, just louder.  

I'm still amazed at the imaging. The vocals seems ot come from the windshield above the center-speaker grille - and I don't even have a center speaker (the grille is there for some of the higher-level audio systems for the car which DO have a center speaker). 

Still making small changes to my target curve in regards to overall "tone", but I've been "refining" the EQ for the this last target curve and am very happy so far. 

I know that most don't like rear fill, but I do. I'm using the rears with the same bandpassed crossover that I use for the 6x9 mid-bass speakers (80hz/450hz) - and at an attenuated level (~ -9db) just to give a little more "presence" and a little more mid-bass (I like bass). Doesn't seem to cause any staging issues - vocals are still rock-solid in the center of the windshield. 

Thanks again to everyone for their help along the way - I've come a LONG way thanks to you all!! Sill have a LOT to learn, but way better off than I was a month ago.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

One of the cool things about having a 3 way or 4 way system is you can bump it reduce pairs of drivers by a db or so and alter the curve a bit without ever having to touch the eq. And yeah, 24db lr crossovers sure do make things a bit more pleasant to deal with.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Absolutely... Now that I have my 3.5" dash speakers dialed in really good, I'm experimenting with the mid-bass speakers in the doors. Right night, I have a significant about of mid-bass - maybe even too much (although I generally like it like that). However, I'm going to try a tune where the 6x9's in the doors have significantly reduced midbass (100hz-200hz) - just to see if I like that at all. 

Coming from a "Bass/Mid/Treble" stock system to the DSR1 will all of the EQ and time-alignment adjustments is like paradise.  Lots to play with....


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

thedynoguy said:


> I'll let you know what I run into. I'm canning my DSR1, and installing the PacAudio interface with Helix DSP.3 through a toslink cable. I'm just fed up with the DSR at this point. I'm a week away from getting the rest of the equipment to begin the changeover. I'll keep you posted...


I'm curious - did you ever replace your DSR1 with the AmpPro4 / Helix 3? Just curious what the results were.


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## thedynoguy (Jan 5, 2019)

jtrosky said:


> I'm curious - did you ever replace your DSR1 with the AmpPro4 / Helix 3? Just curious what the results were.


I just got everything installed yesterday. The setup was more involved than I expected, complicated by the Helix Director being defective from the factory. With the help of Doug @ MSC we figured out the fix, and I was up and running. I've not done any real tuning on it yet, other than baseline distance measurements for each speaker. The one thing that I miss from the DSR-1 is the iPad interface. Making changes with a big (clunky) laptop is cumbersome, and the Helix tool (interface) isn't intuitive for me yet. So I guess the big question is, does the system sound different? Yes, it does. The "thinness" that plagued my DSR-1 from the beginning is gone. Now, the system can play loud without the listener fatigue that the DSR-1 provoked. So, now I have find the time and attempt the tune. IMHO, it will only get better...


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

thedynoguy said:


> I just got everything installed yesterday. The setup was more involved than I expected, complicated by the Helix Director being defective from the factory. With the help of Doug @ MSC we figured out the fix, and I was up and running. I've not done any real tuning on it yet, other than baseline distance measurements for each speaker. The one thing that I miss from the DSR-1 is the iPad interface. Making changes with a big (clunky) laptop is cumbersome, and the Helix tool (interface) isn't intuitive for me yet. So I guess the big question is, does the system sound different? Yes, it does. The "thinness" that plagued my DSR-1 from the beginning is gone. Now, the system can play loud without the listener fatigue that the DSR-1 provoked. So, now I have find the time and attempt the tune. IMHO, it will only get better...


I too hated using a big clunky laptop just for taking measurements with REW. Then I realized that I had a couple of these Windows 10/Android 5.x dual-boot tablets w/detachable keyboards laying around from a few years ago - it's the previous model of this (doesn't look like they are dual-boot anymore, but...):

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JQJTB2...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

This thing is perfect for using REW on - very small and light...  Might want to consider something like it for tuning the Helix (and using REW).

Glad to hear that you are having good results with the AmpPro4/Helix. As of late, I can get my system sounding fantastic except for when I *really* turn it up loud to the extreme - then my 3.5" dash speakers can sound "harsh"/"hollow". I'm not sure if it's the speakers ($89 Infinity Reference speakers) or what. Going to see if adding something "behind" the speakers helps (some sort of deadening material - right now it's like a hollow plastic hole behind them). I also bought a cheap multi-meter/oscilloscope to check to see what the signals look like coming from head-unit/DSP/amp, etc... Kind of curious what things look like (to see if I'm clipping at all).

Please keep up updated on your install. If I do ever upgrade, I think it would be to the AP4/Helix combination, so I'm interested in your experience! 


Sent from my ASUS Chromebook Flip C302 using Tapatalk


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## thedynoguy (Jan 5, 2019)

thanks for the tip on the tablet. I might order one. I bought the cheapest W10 laptop I could find on Amazon, and coming from multi MacBook Pro's it is indeed a big, clunky POS.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I continue to get a little better at this tuning thing every day...  At first, I *thought* that I liked the treble to actually increase instead of "roll off" - however, I've found that it was only becuase I had way too much mid-bass.  Once I got the mid-bass levels down to where they actually should be, I found that I really do like to have the treble roll off, just like everyone else does.... 

So, I'm getting closer and closer to a great sounding system - just took lots of help from you guys, LOTS of time and LOTS AND LOTS of trial and error to get my "target curve" to where I really wanted it (not sure I'm 100% there yet, but getting much closer). Today was the first day that I thoroughly enjoyed the music coming from system while actually driving around (instead of sitting in the car in the garage without it running).

Again, thank you all SO much for your assistance and patience as I learn - I truly do appreciate it.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

So I've been wondering if the measured frequency response from my Infinity Reference speakers is as bad as it seems... I've never measured the frequency response of car speakers before, so I'm not sure if this is "bad" or "normal". These are the response curves taken from my seating position using pink noise. No crossevers, except for the 3.5" dash speakers - I put 250hz LR crossovers on those. 

The 6x9 door speakers have a pretty bug dip at around 600hz (especially the right door!) that really makes it hard to pick a good crossover point for them. Basically, 350hz crossover is about the highest I can go without that big dip causing me grief... Like I said, just curious how good or bad these responses actually are. They are all 2-way speakers - no sound deadening yet either (is that maybe the problem?).

*Left Dash*:










*Right Dash*:










*Left Door*:










*Right Door*:









Thank you!


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

Those uncorrected responses look pretty typical. All the interfering reflections wreak havoc on sound waves in a car.

It's nice to see your making progress and learning new things. Your ears are getting trained too. Though you may deny it now - I can see you continuing to make improvements in the sound till you reach the limitations of the equipment and wanting to upgrade further. It happens - I know from experience LOL


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

jtrosky said:


> So I've been wondering if the measured frequency response from my Infinity Reference speakers is as bad as it seems... I've never measured the frequency response of car speakers before, so I'm not sure if this is "bad" or "normal". These are the response curves taken from my seating position using pink noise. No crossevers, except for the 3.5" dash speakers - I put 250hz LR crossovers on those.
> 
> The 6x9 door speakers have a pretty bug dip at around 600hz (especially the right door!) that really makes it hard to pick a good crossover point for them. Basically, 350hz crossover is about the highest I can go without that big dip causing me grief... Like I said, just curious how good or bad these responses actually are. They are all 2-way speakers - no sound deadening yet either (is that maybe the problem?).
> 
> ...


What Truthhunter said^^
Welcome to car audio! Those dips are frustrating, don't try to completely wipe them out with eq, 10 db of boost or cut is a huge amount, you likely aren't hearing that much of a difference. This problem is where measurement mics and ears don't agree, a large portion of those big dips will be phase issues that you probably can't hear but the mic can measure. Just be careful and good luck.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Yeah, I think I've been "over EQ'ing" in my quest to get perfectly-flat response curves. Since you're not supposed to boost much, I've had to cut so much to get things somewhat "flat", that it then impacts the volume level too much.

So I guess I need to learn how to EQ without "over EQ'ing". 

Now - once I EQ things, what else can I do with REW to make things "better"? Should I be using REW to check for phase issues? If so, I guess I need to do some sweep measurements? Just looking at speaker pair pink noise measurements (L+R midbass, or L+R dash speakers, for example), I don't see any substantial difference between the single-speaker measurements and the speaker-pair measurements, so I was under the assumption that I didn't have any major phase issues. 

At the end of the day, I'm still just not satisfied with this audio upgrade. I have spent a substantial amount of $$$ and I would have assumed that going from my stock "276 watt" (that is 276 watt MAX, not RMS - so we're talking 46Wx6 MAX - or around 20W x 6 RMS) amp with Bass/Mid/Treble and Fader controls - to an aftermarket JL Audio 75Wx6 RMS amp (450 watts RMS) with DSR-1 DSP system, that volume level would no longer be an issue and that I would end up with *SUBSTANTIALLY* better sound quality. 

So far, however, I'm struggling with both of those goals (louder and better sound). Like I said, I think the volume level issue is due to the fact that I've been cutting so much during EQ *and* the fact that I'm really not using the 150W RMS that is "allocated" to the rear-deck speakers. As for the sound quality, it's just not there yet. Every time I think I have things where I want them, it ends up not sounding so great in real life while actually driving the car - or it sounds good at moderate volume, but not good at loud volume levels - or sounds great with a few songs, but not great with most other songs... I really wish I had measurements from the stock system, just to get some idea of what it was doing.

I'm definitely still missing something somewhere... Most music just sounds "shallow" and "thin" with the majority of the sound coming from the two 3.5" coaxial speakers in the dash (basically, they are playing all freqs from 350hz - 20khz). I think I need to go back and do more experimenting with higher crossover values. Previously, that major dip at ~600hz on the door 6x9 speakers kept me from using a crossover point over 350hz or 450hz. Maybe I'll try some higher crossover points - 800hz or 900hz, for example - just so I get a little more "balance" between the door and dash speakers. 

Maybe I'll also take a step back and see what kind of results I can get with the DSR-1 "basic" 7-band graphical EQ in the DSR-1 - just to see if I can get close to what I'm looking for that way. Maybe I'm doing more harm than good trying to utilize the the 186 bands of parametric EQ (31 bands x 6) - even with REWs help.... 

Open to suggestions!  Thanks everyone.


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## thedynoguy (Jan 5, 2019)

jtrosky said:


> Every time I think I have things where I want them, it ends up not sounding so great in real life while actually driving the car - or it sounds good at moderate volume, but not good at loud volume levels - or sounds great with a few songs, but not great with most other songs...


Those are exactly the issues I was having with the DSR-1. While I am still VERY early in the tuning process with the Helix DSP.3, those issues seem to be gone. I'm on vacation this week, so I won't be playing with the system for awhile. I'll keep you posted as to my results when I get back into it...


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

It is perfectly possible that your system has things that arent perfect. Speaker positions and reflections can wreck havoc on your sound.

Weather people admit it or not, all speakers have a sound and it has little to do with frequncy. You may not like the way your speakers reproduce music. I hate the focal flax set for instance. 

In your system some compromises may need to be made. The only way to know for sure is to take it to a pro known for quality tuning. Otherwise you are shooting in the dark hoping to stumble across something you like.

For now I'd say tune it close to the AF curve and leaving it alone for a week or so. Just listen. Take notes. Step away for a bit. Our emotions play a huge role in how good something sounds to us. Operating from a place of frustration will never lead to good things.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I think the low crossover point may have been a big part of the issue. I just tried a quick tune with the crossovers (door <-> dash) set at 900hz, without trying to get a perfectly flat frequency response from the door speakers (so not cutting tons of dBs) and I seem to have a much "fuller" sound that way. When you think about it, asking 3.5" speakers to play such a huge range of frequencies - when mounted in the dash, pointing straight up into the windshield, probably isn't the best idea...

I'm going to leave it as-is for a few days and see how it goes. But the initial results seemed really good.

Is it ever "correct" to "overlap" the crossover points? So, for example, have the door speakers play 80hz -> 1200hz, and the dash speakers play 800hz -> 20khz? Or is it never "correct" to overalp crossovers like that? Just curious.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

thedynoguy said:


> Those are exactly the issues I was having with the DSR-1. While I am still VERY early in the tuning process with the Helix DSP.3, those issues seem to be gone. I'm on vacation this week, so I won't be playing with the system for awhile. I'll keep you posted as to my results when I get back into it...


Ha - I purchased an "Open Box" DSR-1 from Crutchfield - probably got one of the ones you returned. ;-)

But seriously, I just find it hard to believe that the DSR-1 is *that* bad, where you can't even get a decent-sounding system. I mean, at the very least, it should still be able to produce significantly better sound than the lowly factory "DSP" system... You also have to remember that I am not a true "audiophile" - the DSR-1 should be more than sufficient for someone like me - at least I would think so....

I also think that the way their "Presets" work can be the source of a lot of issues where you're not hearing the tune that you think you're hearing. That part of the DSR-1 is more confusing that it needs to be. I hate the way they use the term "synchronize" - they should have an "upload to DSR1" button and a "download from DSR-1" button - would make things so much more straight forward.

I really am very interested to hear your results though. I think it's a little too early to claim that the DSR-1 was absolutely the problem in your case - let's give it a good month or two for you to get things tuned and spend some time with the results.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

drop1 said:


> Weather people admit it or not, all speakers have a sound and it has little to do with frequncy. You may not like the way your speakers reproduce music. I hate the focal flax set for instance.


It's funny you mention that, I was just looking around on Crutchfield this morning and noticed that they have a "feature" where you can compare the sound of different speakers. Basically, you select the type of headphones you are using (exact brand and model) and then you can listed to about 10 different songs from different genres - and actually hear how the different speakers sound. No idea how accurate it is, but just selecting a random headphone type and listening to the different speakers on the cheap speakers in my Chromebook, every speaker definitely had a different sound to it. If at all accurate, that is a really cool feature. I'll have to try it with a decent set of headphones next.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

You could always try tuning by ear.

Use raw only to knock down the largest peaks and set the tone by ear. This gives a flounder more lively sound instead of a hyper focused sound. While not technically correct, it can sound much fuller and overcomes road noise a lot better. That's how we did it pre dsp days.


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## Phobos223 (Aug 20, 2019)

New DIYMA member here, about to embark on a similar journey. Great thread, I feel motivated already!


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## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

Phobos223 said:


> New DIYMA member here, about to embark on a similar journey. Great thread, I feel motivated already! <img src="http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />


Welcome to the club.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

jtrosky said:


> A lot of times, many of the 31 bands go un-used when I could use them elsewhere in the frequency spectrum to "fine tune" things if I was able to use them with any frequency I wanted.



You can slide the center frequency up or down up on each of the 31 bands. I.E., you could do one at 400 and slide the 500 down to 450.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

therapture said:


> You can slide the center frequency up or down up on each of the 31 bands. I.E., you could do one at 400 and slide the 500 down to 450.


Yeah, I understand that - but you can't use all 31 bands up high, for a tweeter, for example - you can only move them around between the "boundries" of the bands around it - and even then, only in certain limited increments.

However, I found a way around that limitation - I can now set any/all of the 31 bands to the *exact* frequncies that I want. I could use all 31 bands between 5000hz and 20000hz if I wanted to - and can set them to *specific* frequencies now too (which lets me use the exact EQ filters suggested by REW). Like I said, you just export the preset, edit the export text file and then re-import it - this let's you assign the 31 parametric bands to *anything* you want instead of being limited by the PerfectTune app interface.

I have the process down to a science now and can actually set up tunes much faster than I can by hand using the PerfectTune interface (which can be tedious if you are using lots of bands). 

The main goal of doing this was so I could use the REW-suggested EQ filters as-is, like you would do on a Helix, for example.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

jtrosky said:


> Yeah, I understand that - but you can't use all 31 bands up high, for a tweeter, for example - you can only move them around between the "boundries" of the bands around it - and even then, only in certain limited increments.
> 
> However, I found a way around that limitation - I can now set any/all of the 31 bands to the *exact* frequncies that I want. I could use all 31 bands between 5000hz and 20000hz if I wanted to - and can set them to *specific* frequencies now too (which lets me use the exact EQ filters suggested by REW). Like I said, you just export the preset, edit the export text file and then re-import it - this let's you assign the 31 parametric bands to *anything* you want instead of being limited by the PerfectTune app interface.
> 
> ...





jtrosky said:


> Yeah, I understand that - but you can't use all 31 bands up high, for a tweeter, for example - you can only move them around between the "boundries" of the bands around it - and even then, only in certain limited increments.
> 
> However, I found a way around that limitation - I can now set any/all of the 31 bands to the *exact* frequncies that I want. I could use all 31 bands between 5000hz and 20000hz if I wanted to - and can set them to *specific* frequencies now too (which lets me use the exact EQ filters suggested by REW). Like I said, you just export the preset, edit the export text file and then re-import it - this let's you assign the 31 parametric bands to *anything* you want instead of being limited by the PerfectTune app interface.
> 
> ...



soooooo....if I import this file back...would that let me set my tweets EQ to say, 600-20k and my midbass to 0-5k, and my sub to 0-2k ?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

therapture said:


> soooooo....if I import this file back...would that let me set my tweets EQ to say, 600-20k and my midbass to 0-5k, and my sub to 0-2k ?


I'm not sure I understand the question - but once you export the "preset", you can then edit it (it's just a text file) and set ANY value to whatever you want (frequency, gain and Q) - so you have 31 bands per channel and you can assign them to ANYTHING you want. 

It's a little "cryptic" at first, but when you look at the file, you'll see how it's laid out. I actually export the REW filters to a text file and then use a small unix script to parse that file and output the format needed for the PerfectTune export file - makes setting the values a lot easier.  But you can also just edit the file by hand. 

Export a preset and then take a look at the file in WIndows Notepad, for example. After you make changes to it, then you simply import it back in to a new Preset.

Hope that makes sense.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

I can understand working with what you have but damn I'd be looking for a used jl twk for like $200 before I made myself go through all that.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

It's actually really quick and easy once you come up with a "system" (I'm a Unix Systems Engineer by trade, which is why I put together a small unix shell script to parse the REW-generated filters, which makes it easier). 

So I export a "preset" from PerfectTune on my phone (press a button in the app), copy that file to my NAS (all from my phone), then I type 3 commands on my NAS to parse the REW filter data and display the data in the correct format for PerfectTune - and then I just copy and paste that ouput into the preset file and import the preset file back into PerfectTune. 

It's actually much quicker and easier than it sounds. Certainly faster than setting up the PEQ bands "manually" (unless you have one where REW writes directly to the DSP) - and MUCH, MUCH faster than setting up the PEQ bands manually in the PerfectTune app (setting up PEQ bands via the PerfectTune app is normally very time consuming since it's all done on your phone via "finger-swiping") - not to mention it also allows me to use any freq, any gain and any Q (the PerfecTune app limits the values you can use). Win/win/win/win - quicker, easier, more foolproof AND more flexible.  Basically, this allows me to have the flexibility of something like a Helix with my $250 DSR1.

I can take my measurement data for each speaker, EQ it in REW and then "transfer" up to 186 bands of PEQ data (31 channels x 6), including freqs, gains and Q's for each one, from REW to the PerfectTune app, in about 15 minutes this way. Would take WAY longer to do that manually with the PerfectTune app.

I honestly don't think you could do the same thing as fast on another DSP.  Plus, you're not going to find another $250 device that offers a full 31 bands of parametric EQ per channel to begin with - even used (I think the JL TWK has maybe 10 bands?).  Not to mention that the DSR1 also performs my stock radio integration. Really, the whole DSP part is basically just a free "extra" with the DSR1 (when compared with the AmpPRO 4). 

So... This method is not only faster, easier and more foolproof - but it also removes the limitations imposed by the PerfectTune app.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> It's actually really quick and easy once you come up with a "system" (I'm a Unix Systems Engineer by trade, which is why I put together a small unix shell script to parse the REW-generated filters, which makes it easier).
> 
> So I export a "preset" from PerfectTune on my phone (press a button in the app), copy that file to my NAS (all from my phone), then I type 3 commands on my NAS to parse the REW filter data and display the data in the correct format for PerfectTune - and then I just copy and paste that ouput into the preset file and import the preset file back into PerfectTune.
> 
> ...


You will neve need more then 10 bands per driver and it's not setting up REW files that would bother me. Those can be saved and imported whenever. If I remember correctly the twk has always been able to directly import REW text files. 
What would bug me is not being able to go in and just change a frequncy when I felt the need. 

If you are just counting on REW to make you car sound great , you're gonna have a bad time. It will get you in the ball park but often you'll have to undo some stuff it's done, especially in areas where the phase isnt just right and it boost the crap out of a frequncy that diesnt need boosting.

That being said, all dsp's have their quirks and learning to work around them is part of the process and it sounds like you've found a way.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

drop1 said:


> You will neve need more then 10 bands per driver and it's not setting up REW files that would bother me. Those can be saved and imported whenever. If I remember correctly the twk has always been able to directly import REW text files.
> What would bug me is not being able to go in and just change a frequncy when I felt the need.
> 
> If you are just counting on REW to make you car sound great , you're gonna have a bad time. It will get you in the ball park but often you'll have to undo some stuff it's done, especially in areas where the phase isnt just right and it boost the crap out of a frequncy that diesnt need boosting.
> ...


Yeah, I'm just trying to squeeze the most functionality out of the DSR-1 as possible, that's all. This process allows me to do that.

Dont get me wrong, I can still go in and change things in the PerfectTune app after I've imported the files... This export/import process is just an easy way to get REW filters transferred over to the PerfectTune app "as-is" - otherwise, PerfectTune won't let you use the exact values REW recommends if you try to enter them "manually" via the app interface. But once in PerfectTune, you can still go in and change things "on the fly" - albeit within the PerfectTune limitations. So if REW recommends a frequency of 289 with a gain of 1.6 and a Q of 3.65 - once imported into PerfectTune, I can still change those settings - but, for example, I can only change gain in increments of .5 and maybe only change the frequency in increments of 10 or even 100, depending on the exact frequency.

At least in my case, REW certainly does use more than 10 bands when trying to EQ my speakers!  It's not uncommon for it to recommend 17 or more bands per driver on the first run - and if I want to get them even "flatter", I can re-measure and then run them through REW again and it will use even more bands to flatten them out. Since my 3.5" dash speakers are combined mids and tweeters (coaxials), there is a huge range of frequencies to EQ and flatten out. I'm sure you could get most of the way there with only 10 bands, but having 31 bands sure does make it easier. There is no way I could get my dash speakers to match a target curve as well as I've been able to with only 10 bands though. From what I've seen, all of the better DSP systems include 31-band parametric EQ per channel - I have to assume they provide 31 bands per channel for a reason. Like I said, if you are using any coaxials, having more than 10 bands definitely comes in handy. Maybe not "required" , but certainly nice to have. At this point, going backwards to only 10 bands per channel just doesn't sound appealing. 

Maybe I've put a little too much "faith" into REW? Every question I would ask, people would say to "use REW", so I was under the impression that using REW to get your speakers as "flat" as possible (to a "target curve") was the primary way to tune things. I mean it certainly does a better job of EQ'ing to a target curve than I could ever do manually. My main problem was been getting the target curve just where i want it, so I've been using REW quite a bit. Update target curve, re-EQ, measure & listen - rinse and repeat. Of course, I'm trying to learn along the way too, so that makes things a lot harder. 

My "goal" is to get the system to sound as good as possible via REW's auto-EQ function. Once I reach that point, I can fine tune from there. Haven't gotten that far yet though.


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## Mahapederdon (Aug 19, 2016)

The jl twk is great but it can't import text files. And when using rew to generate filyers you have to divide the q by 2 or they won't be right.


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## Wiseben (Aug 9, 2019)

What about that new Sennheizer Technology?
I guess pink noise it is..


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ok, so I wanted to post my progress and where I'm at. I'm going to post a lot of pictures here (before/after EQ). I could probably leave it like this and be 100% happy - it seems to sound good with various music types. My plan has always been to get it as close as possible via a "target curve" and then tweak if/as needed from there. So I'll probably enable the DSR-1 7-band "global" EQ and see if any "tweaks" improve things.

Thoughts? See anything that sticks out as a problem from these graphs?

I appreciate any and all input!


Here are my front stage speakers "before EQ":

*Left Dash*










*Right Dash*










*Left Door*











*RIght Door*











Here are some "after EQ" graphs - individual speakers, left/right side, dash/door pairs and "all":

*Left Dash*










*Right Dash*










*Left Door*










*Right Door*










*Left Side*










*Right SIde*










*Both Dash*










*Both Door*










*Both Dash and Both Door*










*All (Dash, Door, Rear Deck and Sub)*


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

By the way, I know it looks like my sub level is crazy-high, but it's really not. Not sure if that is realted to the fact that it's an under-seat sub that is right next to me or what - but it's not nearly as loud as the graphs make it out to be. I mean I think it's a 150W RMS 8" sub that is 3" high - how much bass can it *really* create? I think I have the gain level on it about half way and I'm still turning it down a few dB in the DSR-1. Obviously, it could be a little "deeper", but it does a good job for what it is.

Also - now that I'm happy with overall sound and frequency response - what's next? Should I be checking phase somehow via measurements? Or would/do the graphs above already tell me if I have any phase issues or not?

One more comment. I have my door mid-bass speakers going down to 65hz and the sub crossover over at 80hz. Not sure if this is "right" or "wrong", but it just gives me a little more bass since I'm only working with a small 8" sub....

The rear deck speakers are band-passed at 75hz / 800hz right now - and lowered by 7dB. I like some sound coming from the rear and that seems to work well wihtout messing with the front stage too much. Like I said, I'm no true "audiophile", so I may not do things "by the book" - just doing what makes me happy.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

The sub isnt crazy high but unfortually fir you it diesnt sustain very low. I dont like that much 60hz in a car. If it were oeaking at 35 hz it sound better. I dont think you have enough box to pull that off though. At least not at the volume you like.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

drop1 said:


> The sub isnt crazy high but unfortually fir you it diesnt sustain very low. I dont like that much 60hz in a car. If it were oeaking at 35 hz it sound better. I dont think you have enough box to pull that off though. At least not at the volume you like.


Really? Most of the target curves I see have 60hz at about 9 or 10dB higher than the mids/highs - whereas mine is about 22dB higher!  I honestly thought that would be considered "crazy high" when compared to the rest of the levels.....

Or don't the target curves take the sub into account? Hnestly, I didn't see any need to "EQ" the sub, so I just tuned my mid-bass and mid/tweeter coaxial to the target curve. I really haven't played with the sub much yet - I'm not sure there is much I could do with it anyway - it just does what it does. The sub does have a "bass boost" feature, but I think it bosts 70hz. Don't use it. The DSR-1 does have a "Punch EQ" setting that says it boosts the 40hz range. Maybe I can see if that does anything to give me lower bass via the sub.... I typically avoid "bass boost" features like that, but maybe it would actually help in this case....

By the way - do you happen to have some frequency response graphs from your system? Unfortunately, I don't see many graphs posted - and I'm kind of curious what other peoples systems "look" like...


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > The sub isnt crazy high but unfortually fir you it diesnt sustain very low. I dont like that much 60hz in a car. If it were oeaking at 35 hz it sound better. I dont think you have enough box to pull that off though. At least not at the volume you like.
> ...


I always shoot flat from 20 to 60 then down. Then I give back and reduce 45 through 70 about 3 db. That way you can run a little more bottom without the sub pulling away from the dash. I can get your sub curve with zero eq lol that what my trucks natural sub response looks like


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

drop1 said:


> I always shoot flat from 20 to 60 then down. Then I give back and reduce 45 through 70 about 3 db. That way you can run a little more bottom without the sub pulling away from the dash. *I can get your sub curve with zero eq lol that what my trucks natural sub response looks like*


Not sure I'm following.... I didn't EQ the sub at all either - that is just the sub playing as-is with no EQ. What I was saying is that the DSR-1 does have a feature called "Punch EQ" that says it boosts 40hz - maybe I can give that a shot to see if it helps my sub do better on the low end.

I think I'm misunderstanding what you meant though.

Do you have some overall frequency response graphs of your system? Like I said, I really haven't seen any other graphs on here (not that I went looking for them, but...). I'm just curious to see what the graphs look like on some other peoples systems - just to get an idea of what is "typical".


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## rayray881 (Jul 15, 2013)

Midbass region looks out of phase to me. Might be the rear speakers.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> drop1 said:
> 
> 
> > I always shoot flat from 20 to 60 then down. Then I give back and reduce 45 through 70 about 3 db. That way you can run a little more bottom without the sub pulling away from the dash. *I can get your sub curve with zero eq lol that what my trucks natural sub response looks like*
> ...


With your setup, I'd put 1 band on the sub at 65hz, a q of 2 and -4 db, then turn the sub back up +4db and see how that sounds. 

Eq on subs can affect how on time the sub feels. 
If that doesnt work try eqing the sub flat from 25 to 60hz and adding volume to taste. It looks like it sounds "peaky" right now.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

rayray881 said:


> Midbass region looks out of phase to me. Might be the rear speakers.


See - that's the kind of input I'm looking for. I'm not up to speed on "phase" yet - or how to even know if I'm having phase issues or not.  If you are talking about the funkyness in the very last "All speakers" graph, then yes, that it probably due to the added mis-bass from the rear speakers. I don't see that funkyness when I play left side or right side (without the rear speakers) - only when I add the rear speakers (basically, it just increases part of the mid-bass area). I haven't EQ'd the rear speakers yet either - and they are nowhere near as "formed" as the door mid-bass speakers. However, to me, the whole system just sounds more "full" and "complete" when I have those rear speakers playing that 75hz - 900hz. I've always liked "rear fill" and I'm just not able to get away from it.  The system just sounds better to me with it. Now I may still EQ the rear speakers a little or even alter the bandpass crossover I'm using with them - need to mess around with that a little more.

I do know for sure that the polaity of all of the speakers are correct (I have a little polarity-checking tool, so I'm 100% sure about that).

Are there any measurements I can take help identify potential phase issues?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

drop1 said:


> With your setup, I'd put 1 band on the sub at 65hz, a q of 2 and -4 db, then turn the sub back up +4db and see how that sounds.
> 
> Eq on subs can affect how on time the sub feels.
> If that doesnt work try eqing the sub flat from 25 to 60hz and adding volume to taste. It looks like it sounds "peaky" right now.


Ok, thanks - I'll start messing with the sub a little now that I have the rest of the speakers where I want them.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> rayray881 said:
> 
> 
> > Midbass region looks out of phase to me. Might be the rear speakers.
> ...


If you have a solid center and the sound isnt pulling away from your dash, your speakers are in the correct polarity 
The ohsse he was talking about has to do with time alignment. If your ta is off, it causes comb filtering. That creates valleys and peaks when you combine the speakers


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

I will add that I have found it very difficult through the years to get rear speakers to play nice with the fronts . If you could find a way to get those midbass into your front doors youd be in so much better shape.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I do have mid-bass speakers in the doors - I have 6"x9" speakers in the doors. I have 3.5" coaxials in the dash, 6"x9" in the doors and 6.5" in the rear deck - actually, they are all coaxial 2-way speakers, but only the tweeters on the 3.5" dash spaekers are actually used. The speakers were selected and installed before I ever really planned on going this far with amps and DSPs. To be honest, my original goal was just to have the system be a little louder - I wasn't even that dissatisfied with the sound quality of the factory "premium" Alpine system. 

To me, whether technically right or wrong, I just like having some sound come from the rear. I know that most people don't like "rear fill", but it is what it is... If I'm listening to music and I turn off those rear speakers, the system just don't sound as good to me. I'm not going for "technical SQ" - just what sounds good to me. Like I said, maybe it's not technically "correct", but for something like that, I'm not going to "suffer" with something I don't like just to say that it's technically "correct". 

The rears are at a low enough level that you don't realize there is sound coming from the rear while everything is playing - but if I turn them off, I miss it.  It just adds a "fullness" to the sound. 

Before this current setup, I would actually always fade to the rear a little - so that tells you something....  I'm not your typical "technical SQ" guy...


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

By the way, it would be interesting to go back to the stock system, just to hear the sound quality difference between my current setup and the stock setup. I've been messing with this stuff so much over the past month, that I have a feeling that my stock system (which I was generally happy with in terms of sound quality) would probably sound like crap in comparison. Unfortunately, it's really hard to fully realize the difference when it's been so long in between (we have very short term "audio" memory, from my understanding).

I know one thing, I briefly tried the system with no EQ real quick and it sounded horrible in comparison to what it does now - so I truly believe that getting the EQ part just right is very important - maybe the most important part?

Is there anything further I can do with measurements/REW? I spent the money for the MIC and invested the time to get REW up and running - just wanted to see what else I can use it for in the car (besides EQ)....

Anyone else care to post up any frequency response graphs of their system? I'd love to see some just to see what others have done/are doing!


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> I do have mid-bass speakers in the doors - I have 6"x9" speakers in the doors. I have 3.5" coaxials in the dash, 6"x9" in the doors and 6.5" in the rear deck - actually, they are all coaxial 2-way speakers, but only the tweeters on the 3.5" dash spaekers are actually used. The speakers were selected and installed before I ever really planned on going this far with amps and DSPs. To be honest, my original goal was just to have the system be a little louder - I wasn't even that dissatisfied with the sound quality of the factory "premium" Alpine system.
> 
> To me, whether technically right or wrong, I just like having some sound come from the rear. I know that most people don't like "rear fill", but it is what it is... If I'm listening to music and I turn off those rear speakers, the system just don't sound as good to me. I'm not going for "technical SQ" - just what sounds good to me. Like I said, maybe it's not technically "correct", but for something like that, I'm not going to "suffer" with something I don't like just to say that it's technically "correct".
> 
> ...


You need some time in a well tuned car. I used to be you! A good front stage sounds absolutely incredible, full and TIGHT. 
Old habits are hard to kill. All this taking about staging and imaging is pointless in your case. Just do the best you can to keep the sound centered. The rest of our advice is of absolutely no use to you. All my post about tone were for shaping the sound of a high front stage.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Yeah, honestly, I could have probably just used the DSR-1 7-band EQ and been happy - but since I had the DSR-1 (I needed it for OEM integration), I figured that I might as well try and take advantage of some of its DSP functionality. I mean why not start out with speakers that are EQ'd to each other instead of using a system where each speaker has a dramatically different frequency response at the listening position? 

Just the EQ and time alignment features alone can make a dramatic difference. WIthout time alignment, there was NO "center image" at all - you can just hear the vocals coming from the corners of the car and the front-left dash speaker dominated the sound. Setting time alignment with measurements put the vocals right in the middle of my windshield and makes it hard to tell where the sound is actually coming from. Then the EQ just lets me tailor the overall sound to my liking. Really, that is what I was looking for to start off with. Anything else at this point is "gravy". 

This whole DSP/REW/MIC stuff was all new to me - so baby steps.  

When I get bored with EQ and time alignment, I'll start working on the next "item" and go from there.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> Yeah, honestly, I could have probably just used the DSR-1 7-band EQ and been happy - but since I had the DSR-1 (I needed it for OEM integration), I figured that I might as well try and take advantage of some of its DSP functionality. I mean why not start out with speakers that are EQ'd to each other instead of using a system where each speaker has a dramatically different frequency response at the listening position?
> 
> Just the EQ and time alignment features alone can make a dramatic difference. WIthout time alignment, there was NO "center image" at all - you can just hear the vocals coming from the corners of the car and the front-left dash speaker dominated the sound. Setting time alignment with measurements put the vocals right in the middle of my windshield and makes it hard to tell where the sound is actually coming from. Then the EQ just lets me tailor the overall sound to my liking. Really, that is what I was looking for to start off with. Anything else at this point is "gravy".
> 
> ...


You can get that sounding good you can make it sound like you are wearing headphones . I use to tune like that. Its pretty awesome actually and you can get a ridiculous amount of volume that way. The procedure is different though.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

If I were to post the base measurements for my 6"x9" door speakers and 3.5" dash speakers (in rew .mdat file), would someone be willing to EQ it - just so I can get an idea of how others are doing it? I'm certainly not looking for someone else to "do the work for me" - I've EQ them dozens of times - but I'm curious if I'm EQ'ing them correctly - and would REALLY like to see how someone more experienced than I would do it...

Just in case, here it is....  I am using 400hz 24dB LR crossovers for this.....

www.hochladen.to/files/fRWgE1567348026.html

I would REALLY appreciate it. Doesn't matter what target curve you EQ to (Audiofrog is fine) - I'm just looking to see how you'd EQ it in general... 

Thank you VERY much in advance!


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Ok, didn't seem to get any "takers" willing to show me how *they* would EQ my speakers (generally speaking)....  I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm over-EQ'ing - and draining the "life" (and volume level) from the speakers in the process. My issue is that I'm not sure how much to really EQ these things (door or dash speakers). If I EQ to make them hit a target curve accurately, it just takes away too much. But its also hard to just "get rid of the big peaks" without over EQ'ing too... If I just try to get rid of the big peaks, I'm still seems that I'm taking away way too much. I actually decided to try a tune using 900hz as the crossover point without ANY EQ on the individual speakers AT ALL - just some minor EQ changes with a 7-band "global" EQ - and that seems to give me the "full" sound that I've been looking for - actually seems the best of any tune I've done so far! Go figure...

So would I be better off just concentrating on getting the EQ between left and right to match - including the big peaks and dips - instead of trying to eliminate the peaks completely? Or am I still missing something?

I'm also still struggling trying to determine the best crossover point between my 6"x9" door speakers (mid-bass) and my 3.5" coaxial dash speakers (mids and highs). I sure seem to get better results with higher crossovers (such as 900hz instead of 350hz or 450hz) - it just seems to have a much better "balance" of sound coming from each speaker when using a 900hz crossover point - lower crossover points seem to cause the dash speakers to produce the bulk of the sound, which sounds "thin" instead of "balanced" and "full".

Based on this, I'm assuming that a 400hz tone (for example) coming from a 3.5" speaker and a 400hz tone coming from a 6x9" speaker will actually be different, right - especially at higher volume levels? The 3.5" speaker just doesn't seem to play the sound to where is causes vibrations that you can *feel*, like the 6"x9" speakers does (giving it that "fuller" sound). So - what is the frequency where the vibrations that you can "feel" are no longer present? I think I want to keep all of the frequencies that you can "feel" coming from the 6x9 - which would help be figure out the proper crossover frequency that I'm looking for. 

Thanks for any input you may have!


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

At the 2500hz mark of both dash speakers, if you have no eq on, and you were to boost 2500hz, does that dip go away? 

It looks like you are cutting down to that dip. If you boost it and it doesn't change, then it is an install/vehicle issue and then you can "ignore" it as no matter the EQ, it won't change. I always find the dips that I can't fix no matter amount of boost and ignore those ones. The tune that I do that always sounds the best to my ears. When I cut down to those, I am taking away too much and everything else sounds weak.

In that case, you would set your level around the 64db mark at the other dips of the left dash speakers.

I could be wrong about that process, but cutting to dips that I can't fix never seems pleasing to me.

You can also see if that dip is actually a dip. In REW, go to generator and tone generator. Play the tone starting with the lowest for that speaker and just hold the increase button. The tones will increase and you can hear if one area is truly higher than the other or lower.


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

Your 6x9 also seems like it is dropping too fast at 400hz. It is around 70db throughout the playing range and like 56db at 400hz. LR should only be 6db down at the crossover point so it should be at like 64db at 400hz. You've lost another 10db.

Do you have your crossovers set exactly at 400hz? You may need to increase the 6x9 crossover electrically to get it to 400hz acoustically match.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

jdunk54nl said:


> At the 2500hz mark of both dash speakers, if you have no eq on, and you were to boost 2500hz, does that dip go away?
> 
> It looks like you are cutting down to that dip. If you boost it and it doesn't change, then it is an install/vehicle issue and then you can "ignore" it as no matter the EQ, it won't change. I always find the dips that I can't fix no matter amount of boost and ignore those ones. The tune that I do that always sounds the best to my ears. When I cut down to those, I am taking away too much and everything else sounds weak.
> 
> ...


First - thanks for the reply - I really do appreciate it!

I just tested this and yes, adjusting 2500hz while watching the RTA *does* adjust the dip. Honestly, so far, EQ seems to adjust all of the dips/peaks that I see. I don't have any that EQ doesn't work for. If I add/cut enough dB, I can get the response to match any curve just about perfectly - but unfortunately, there are so many dips/peaks and they are so large that flattening them out just cuts too much from the speaker. So I'll have to do the best I can and just try to make left/right match as much as possible. 

I haven't tried messing with the tone generator yet, but that is a good idea - thanks for that.



jdunk54nl said:


> Your 6x9 also seems like it is dropping too fast at 400hz. It is around 70db throughout the playing range and like 56db at 400hz. LR should only be 6db down at the crossover point so it should be at like 64db at 400hz. You've lost another 10db.
> 
> Do you have your crossovers set exactly at 400hz? You may need to increase the 6x9 crossover electrically to get it to 400hz acoustically match.


Yes, I do have the crossovers set at 400hz exactly in those graphs. I'm just EQ'ing to the curves (24dB LR crossovers) that REW recommends. I think a lot of issues around the crossover is due to the different levels between the door mid-bass and dash mid/highs. I have the mid/highs dash speaker at a much lower level, which causes the crossover area to not be "flat". I'm experimenting with 900hz crossovers now. I think that blends the door and dash speakers much better - but there is a huge dip at 600hz (~8db) for the door speakers that really interferes with things. Again, EQ *does* adjust that dip, but adding 8dB of gain there isn't such a great idea either.  Again, I think I'll just have to try and match left and right match as best as I can with minimal gains that I *can* do.

I've also decided to try a different set of speakers - just ordered a set of Kenwood Excelon KFC-XP6903 speakers - it's a 6"x9"/3.5" component set with silk dome tweeters that will drop right in. I just think that might be a better option in this vehicle. Interestingly, that set uses 800hz crossovers between the doors and dash speakers (if you use the included passive crossovers).  I'll be using active crossovers on my DSP, but the 3.5" speaker even has a listed frequency response starting at 800hz+. Very different from my Infinity 3.5" speakers which starts at 85hz (or something like that). I ordered through Amazon, so if they turn out to be complete crap, I can easily return them (although, I *hate* returning things!). Another Dodge Challenger owner tried them and said they sound really good though. Just not sure the Infinity Reference speakers I'm using are the best speakers for this install - the 3.5" speakers just have a "harshness" to them....


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

Just an FYI, you don't need your electrical crossovers set exactly to what you want acoustically. 

Example, I have my mids set to like 2600hz and 2400hz to get me a 2500hz accoustic crossover. My tweeters are like 2400hz and 2300hz to get a 2500hz accoustic crossover.

Those numbers aren't exact but that is close to what I had to do with my electric crossovers to get those acoustic crossovers.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

What is the advantage of setting the electrical crossovers differently like that? It almost sounds like you are setting them differently on purpose?

Another question... Does it really matter *exactly* where each side crosses over acoustically? I mean is it really a big deal if one side crosses over at 425hz and the other side crosses over at 480hz?


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

jtrosky said:


> What is the advantage of setting the electrical crossovers differently like that? It almost sounds like you are setting them differently on purpose?
> 
> Another question... Does it really matter *exactly* where each side crosses over acoustically? I mean is it really a big deal if one side crosses over at 425hz and the other side crosses over at 480hz?



I did do that on purpose. I measured my system and had a 2500hz 24db LR crossover on the screen so I could see how close my acoustic response out of the speaker matched that response. I then adjusted the electrical crossover until it was the closest possible at the crossover point acoustically prior to any eq.

Electrically it does not matter what number you have it set as long as your speaker can play that. Acoustically phase is the reason.

But I could have misinterpreted things I have read and watched along the way with crossovers, but this seems to work well for me.

Check out these resources
https://www.audiofrog.com/community/tech-tips/

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYVlZcJp-V5Igh6-wR1hKOj3WbZ9ZH9Ei


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

There goes that damn "phase" word again.  That, to me, is one of those big "mysteries" right now that I simply do not understand how to measure - or fix if I were able to measure phase issues. 

Thanks for the links - I'll do some more reading. I need to get a better understanding of how to identify phase issues and then how to fix them.

Those graphs that I posted were definitely not my best. I do have some where the crossovers on each side match *exactly* - where they sound be. I've found that getting the slopes EQ'd so they are *just right* will make the acoustical crossovers line up just right. However, then I had other different issues. I'm learning. 

Thanks for all of the input - much appreciated.


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

Don't worry I am still learning (and re-learning from a few years ago) too.....

When I first got back into this again a couple months ago, I could get a curve to match perfectly acoustically with REW but it sounded like crap. SO I have been reading/watching videos and adjusting and trying some different things. A big one was re-learning to figure out what you can actually fix prior to any EQ and making sure your crossovers are set up properly.

Also to actually listen with my ears instead of with my eyes.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Amen to that! I'm going through the exact same thing. Spent TONS of time trying to come up with a custom target curve, EQ'ing and re-EQ'ing - and while I can match the target curve almost exactly, it sounded like crap - and I took away so many dB's during the EQ'ing that the system wasn't loud enough either. So after all of that money I spent on amps, wires, OEM integration - and the TON of time invested, I ended up with a system that sounded terrible and was barely as loud as my OEM system.  

So yes, I'm learning too... Honestly, I had my best results so far by not EQ'ing any of the speakers individually and just using a 7-band "global" EQ.  Then I had full power and it actually sounded pretty damn good - simply because I had enough power available to make the system sound "fulll" again.  So now I'm going to concentrate on crossovers and learn to EQ "sparingly" - and then fine-tune with the "global" 7-band GEQ of my DSR-1.... 

Definitely not an "easy" hobby.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

If and when I upgrade my system to a higher-end DSP, what DSP out there supports full 31-band-per-channel parametric EQ and true rear fill options (L-R, attenuated and delayed 20ms+, etc)? 

I see a lot of Helix DSP.2's coming up for sale cheap, but I'm having a hard time determining what they actually support. I don't even see anything in the specs about EQ capabilities, etc - so I'm really not sure what they can and can't do. 

Any other DSP's that you can get used that support 31-band-per-channel parametric EQ and true rear-fill options?

Thank you!


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

So after changing my speakers (dash and door), I'm now a happy camper!  Turns out that the Infinity Reference speakers just weren't my cup of tea. The Infinity 3.5" dash speakers just didn't sound good at louder volumes - they had a "harsh" sound to me at higher volumes. I could get them to sound good at lower volumes, but then they were overly bright and harsh at higher volume levels. 

I replaced them with a set of Kenwood Excelon XP6903C component speakers (a 6"x9" midbass driver for the door and a 3.5" coaxial for the dash). I MUCH prefer the sound from these speakers. 

Interestingly, the actual frequency response isn't *that* different (it's now obvious that most of the FR issues are related to the car interior - since the exact same problem areas exist on both sets of speakers), but they still sound different - and better.

I also noticed that the Kenwood 3.5" dash speakers required more power than the Infinity dash speakers (the Infinity speakers have higher sensitivity specs and are considered '3-ohm" speakers - whereas the Kenwoods are regular 4-ohm speakers). The Kenwoods just compliment each other better than the Infinity speakers did.

I ended up crossing them at 600hz - and have left/right frequency response matched VERY well (in my opinion). Some REW measurements - I've also learned not to "over EQ" - and keep some of the "natural" shape of the speaker frequency response:

*Left & Right 3.5" Dash Speakers*









*Left & Right 6"x9" Door Speakers*









*Left & Right Door and Dash Speakers*









As you can see, I have left and right matched up really well - and the actual crossovers match exactly as well (slightly lower than the 600hz electrical crossover).

Thoughts? I know these are just inexpensive mass-produced speakers to you guys (AudioFrog seem to be the new norm around here!), but for what they are, they sound really good. I'm just not to the point where I'm willing to spend thousands of dollars for car speakers.  I'm not even a "real" SQ guy - just want things to sound good to me - regardless of how "technically correct" it is. I even like "rear sound" (see how I didn't call it "rear fill"!). RIght now, I'm using attenuated 80hz-850hz for the rears and like what it adds.


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

From 4k+ seems like it would be fairly bright compared to the 700-4k. Also it seems like your mid is quite a bit higher than the 3.5". If you notice harshness/ear fatigue after some time listening, that would be why. 

But if it is what you like, so be it and enjoy it. That would just be a too much mid for my taste.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Yeah, I honestly believe that I must have a hearing loss in the treble area (I know I had some sort of hearing loss since birth, but the only person that would know the details is my Mother and she just passed in February, so I'm really not sure what area the hearing loss is in or how bad it is). But I've tried MANY different curves (including the AudioFrog curve) and the curves that taper off in the treble area really sound "muffled" to me. And I've found that the 1k-3k region is VERY sensitive for me - so I typically have to reduce that area. 

Either that or I just like my "elevated bass and treble" sound!  Like I said, I'm not a true "SQ" guy - so I'm just going with what sounds good to me. This was also the first time I've used the REW "Trace Arithmetic" function to get left and right to match so closely, which I think helped as well.

These measurements are before any "global EQ" - but I've since tried some "global EQ" with the DSR-1 7-band EQ and honestly, I really didn't change much - I only reduced 1k, 6.3k and 15.9k by .5dB each - otherwise, I left it as-is. So far, so good - definitely the best I've had so far. The speaker change really made the difference.

Will listen for a while and see how it goes.

EDIT: By the way - I'd love to see the FR of some other peoples vehicles for comparison! It's like pulling teeth to get people to post graphs of their systems though!


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

For what its worth, these aren't the latest, but the latest I have on the computer I am on currently

Left mid: Pink
Right Mid : Red
left Tweeter: Orange
Right Tweeter: Greeen
Mid Curve: Green
Tweeter Curve: Brown

Note: Dips at 120 and 400 are vehicle related and no EQ helps. Same with the fall off at 100hz and below. They aren't there when near field measurement is taken.


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

jdunk54nl said:


> For what its worth, these aren't the latest, but the latest I have on the computer I am on currently
> 
> Left mid: Pink
> Right Mid : Red
> ...


I mentioned before that you maybjist not like the way your speakers sound.

The differences are a lot smaller the higher end you go but mid tier speakers can sound very very different from each other. Glad you got closer to where you want to be


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

jdunk54nl said:


> For what its worth, these aren't the latest, but the latest I have on the computer I am on currently
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm curious if you have any "before EQ" graphs? I'm just curious how much you EQ'd the speakers. I've previously EQ'd my speakers to death in order to match target curves perfectly and when I did that, it literally took the life out of the speakers and they sounded lifeless, bland and had no volume left. 

This time, I went for as little EQ as possible while still removing some of the largest peaks where I could - I was more concerned with matching left/right and getting the overall shape of the target curve (which is a custom curve that suits my preferences). I specifically wanted to avoid cutting them by 15dB-20dB in areas, just to get the response to match a target curve perfectly - especially since I knew I didn't like the results of that anyway (albeit with different speakers). 

I'll have to do some more playing around with these new speakers to see if any of the target curves out there work better for me now, But so far, I'm pretty damn happy with things as they are - even as "technically improper" as they are. 

Thank you for sharing the graphs - I appreciate that! So many people seem "afraid" to share their graphs.  If you have any un-EQ'd graphs of the same speakers, I'd love to see them - just to see how much you had to EQ things to get them to match the target curve.


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

Here are some before and after

Order of pictures
Left mid
Right mid
left tweeter
right tweeter
left mid crossovers set no eq
right mid crossovers set no eq

Note: The left mid crossovers and the original I must have had at a slightly different volume on my DSP....that is the only thing I can think of as to why it is not at the same level.... I thought I had previously level matched them but these graphs must have been before that and after level matching.


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

drop1 said:


> I mentioned before that you maybjist not like the way your speakers sound.
> 
> The differences are a lot smaller the higher end you go but mid tier speakers can sound very very different from each other. Glad you got closer to where you want to be


I was definitely over eq'ing at that point...By that I mean I was trying to fix speaker placement issues that can't be fixed due to location of install. 

That was definitely a re-learning process for me to check what does actually respond to EQ prior to EQ'ing. Otherwise I was cutting too much to match the 400hz dip and make it perfectly flat and then when I listened with my ears, the 400hz still dipped. Once I set my reference level to a higher, different low point, everything came together nicely.

I love the way these speakers sound now. I have the m3's sitting in my office waiting to be installed, but I need to save more of my fun money to buy the valicar stuttgart pods.

I have been switching between my wife's suv and my truck the past couple of weeks when she needs the truck. She has a dayton 408, active ID xs65 and xs28 2 way, Pioneer shallow mount 10" in their box, and Alpine pdr-v75 amp.

I can tell you hands down, the stereo integrity stuff is well above that setup.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

If and when I decide to upgrade from my DSR-1 to a PAC Audio AmpPro4 and separate DSP, what DSP would you guys recommend? I'd love to have the ability for "real" rear-fill, but not 100% needed. I know that some people say that 31-bands of parametric EQ per channel isn't needed, but I would prefer 31-bands. While you may never need to use the full 31 bands, I'm finding that a lot of times, having more than 10 bands is very useful. I guess I'd rather have it and not need it than not have and need it.  Especially when you are dealing with co-axial speakers - sometimes it takes more than 10 bands to fully EQ such a wide frequency range. I would also like an optical digital input (so I connect to the AP4 via optical cable).

I'm thinking that it would be between a Helix and a MiniDSP 8x12 (would LOVE the Dirac-enabled version, but not sure I'm willing to spend $900 on a DSP) - although it might be worth it instead of having to pay a pro to do the tuning with a non-Dirac DSP (in case I can't get it tuned like I want it).  I can get used Helix DSP's for $350-$500. Any particular Helix model to look for or avoid? I know there is a Helix DSP Pro for sale now (NOT the MK2 version though) - for $550 OBO. I'm assuming that would be a good choice? I need at least 4 input channels and 8 output channels and like I said, a digital input.

I have a Dayton Audio DSP-408 that I bought for $70, but it seems pretty limited (only 10 bands of parametric EQ per channel, no digital input, no rear-fill options, etc). It does have a nice Android app to control it though, which is nice.

Thank you! I'm still not 100% convinced that the DSR-1 is my "problem", but my system still doesn't sound as good as I was expecting. Do you think the 3.5" co-axial dash speakers facing directly up into the windshield might be a limiting factor? System just doesn't sound as "full" as I'd expect and higher-volumes seem to lose some overall sound quality. The dash speakers just seem a little "overbearing" at high volumes - but if you turn them down, then you lose too much. Hard to explain exactly what the problem is.


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## Vx220 (Nov 30, 2015)

Maybe try this to see if tweeters reflecting off the windscreen is the issue?

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...mpletely-different-windshield-foam.html?amp=1

Worth a quick and dirty try out?


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

You can do rear fill with the dsr1, you would just need to wire the rear speakers at the amp and not in the software. But you can bandpass, (I believe delay enough which is ~20ms), and attenuate.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Vx220 said:


> Maybe try this to see if tweeters reflecting off the windscreen is the issue?
> 
> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...mpletely-different-windshield-foam.html?amp=1
> 
> Worth a quick and dirty try out?


Interesting.... I guess that is something that I could attempt, just to see if it helps things. It's like if I put the treble to where it makes things sound good at lower volumes, they are just overbearing at higher volumes. It's really hard to pinpoint exactly what the problem is, but it just not "right".  However, I'm a noob at car audio DSP tuning, so I'm not entirely sure if it's equipment-related (some people have reported similar issues with the DSR-1) - or if I'm just not tuning it right. Can't seem to find any good audio shops nearby or I'd just pay someone to tune it professionally.



jdunk54nl said:


> You can do rear fill with the dsr1, you would just need to wire the rear speakers at the amp and not in the software. But you can bandpass, (I believe delay enough which is ~20ms), and attenuate.


Unfortunately, the time delay on the DSR-1 only goes up to 10ms, so true rear-fill is not really any option with the DSR-1.

I don't remember the stock system having this issue - but then again, it used paper cone 3.5" speakers (no actual tweeter) and even wired the 3.5" dash speakers in reverse-polarity from the factory. Could that possibly be a "solution" - to wire the 3.5" speakers in reverse-polarity? It seems to sound better with normal polarity, but maybe I'm just not accounting for the reverse-polarity in the tune (if anything needs done differently in the tune?).

I *really* wish I had taken some measurements of the stock system before I pulled it. Would be interesting to know what crossover freq they used between door and dash. The dash speakers just don't seem to "mesh" well with the door speakers. Tried all sorts of different crossover points. Anything over 500hz causes issues though due to a huge dip with the door speakers at around 700hz (dip does respond to EQ, but would need way too much boost to account for the dip). I may even reconnect the stock system just for kicks, just to see how it's tuned from the factory (has a stock "premium" Alpine system with a DSP'd amp).

Maybe I should deaden the doors before I do anything else (need to get a power window issue addressed under warranty before I deaden them, which is the only reason it''s not already done). 

It's my first car with 3.5" dash speakers. Other recent cars used small tweeters in the a-pillars from the factory...


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## Vx220 (Nov 30, 2015)

Ball up a pair of socks for each side, wedge them in and listen, "tuning" might not get any quicker or easier! lol

Also, not sure if this has been mentioned, but does the head unit have a "loudness" feature engaged? Or the DSP?


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## Vx220 (Nov 30, 2015)

Also, IIRC there was a thread about a Toyota with dash speakers that sounded better with the OEM grills removed, they caused comb filtering


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## drop1 (Jul 26, 2015)

Vx220 said:


> Also, IIRC there was a thread about a Toyota with dash speakers that sounded better with the OEM grills removed, they caused comb filtering


My door grilles do this but arent removable. I'm getting to the point where I'm thinking about cutting them out and making new ones.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

So I finally got my dash speakers to "blend" better with my door speakers. For whatever reason, I really had to increase some of the midbass frequency levels (200hz -> 400hz) via EQ in order to get them to blend properly with the dash speakers - then everything just came together nicely. Otherwise, the dash speakers just dominated the sound too much - even though they matched levels with the door speakers according to the target curve (many different target curves). Between that and using the rear speakers a little more, I now have it sounding really good (to me, at least) - a nice, "full" sound. I really need to get these doors sound-deadened. They are very large doors (2-door car - Dodge Challenger) and I think that will really help in the midbass department. Would have been done already, but I need to get a power-window issue fixed under the car warranty and don't want to deaden the doors until that is taken care of.

That being said, I still decided to replace the DSR-1 with an AmpPro 4 and Helix DSP.3. Based on the experience of others that are much more experienced than myself, I just can't stop wondering how much the DSR-1 was holding me back in terms of overall sound quality. As I continue to learn how to tune properly, I figured that I might as well just remove the possibilty that the DSR-1 is the "bottleneck" - otherwise, I would always wonder if the DSR-1 was the "problem". I have also been realizing that the noise floor of my system is higher than I'd like. Not a huge deal, but definitely something that can be improved upon. The Helix and AP4 should help in that area.

I am going to go full digital this time. My understanding is that the only real "con" is that I'll lose the ability to do fading from the head-unit. If there are any other "cons", please let me know! I managed to score an AP4 that someone bought and couldn't use (they didn't have a stock amp in their vehicle, so it wouldn't work) - it came with the Toslink adapter already installed and a long optical cable. Got everything for only $163 shipped, so that was a no-brainer. When the Helix DSP.3 gets here, I plan to do the conversion. Looking forward to the full power of the Helix!


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I have a stupid question for you guys... My Kenwood Excelon dash speakers (3.5" mid/high coaxial) list their frequency response as *800hz*-23khz. I have never seen a 3.5" speaker with such a frequency response spec (the 800hz part). Most 3.5" coaxial speakers like this list the lower frequency as 80hz, 85hz, etc... Could there really be a valid reason why they list the lower frequency as 800hz?? I'm currently running them with an active 500hz 24dB LR high-pass crossover and the response is fine (could ever go lower). If I didn't know better, I'd swear that the spec was a mistake and that it's really supposed to be 80hz, like most of the other mass-produced, inexpensive 3.5" coaxial speakers.  But surely, Kenwood couldn't make such a silly mistake, could they (it's listed that way everywhere, including Kenwoods site).

I actually have the 6x9/3.5" component set they sell (but they sell the same 3.5" speaker separately), the included passive crossover for that set is a 850hz crossover (maybe just because it has a lower slope - 6dB or 12dB, I'm assuming?).

Could I possibly damage the speakers running them with a 500hz 24dB LR HP crossover?? Like I said, they sound great and the measured response looks fine below 800hz, but I just wanted to get the input of those with more knowledge/experience.  Just curious.

The speaker in question is the 3.5" included in the KFC-XP6903C- - but the same 3.5" is also available separately as the KFC-X3C.

Thank you.


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## HCWLSU101 (Apr 30, 2009)

I know this is an old thread, but I would really appreciate any tips Jtrosky you worked out in the end. I have been tuning for days and like you find the end results lifeless even though they match the target curves perfectly. I too am having to make serious cuts and it sucks the life out of the system.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

HCWLSU101 said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I would really appreciate any tips Jtrosky you worked out in the end. I have been tuning for days and like you find the end results lifeless even though they match the target curves perfectly. I too am having to make serious cuts and it sucks the life out of the system.


Don’t make as severe cuts... try smoothing the response using a little boost, a little cut and then see what it sounds like (as opposed to making it match the house curve like your life depended on it)


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## HCWLSU101 (Apr 30, 2009)

dumdum said:


> Don’t make as severe cuts... try smoothing the response using a little boost, a little cut and then see what it sounds like (as opposed to making it match the house curve like your life depended on it)


Thanks. I read through this thread and started laughing. This is so the situation I am in right now.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

HCWLSU101 said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I would really appreciate any tips Jtrosky you worked out in the end. I have been tuning for days and like you find the end results lifeless even though they match the target curves perfectly. I too am having to make serious cuts and it sucks the life out of the system.


Yes, I actually have quite a few "tips" that I've learned along the way. Let me put together a quick list of things that helped me improve the sound quality of my system dramatically. I was a complete noob when I started this thread and thanks to this forum and it's members, I have learned _so_ much since I started this thread. 

Be back shortly with my list.


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## HCWLSU101 (Apr 30, 2009)

Thanks


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Here are some of the items that I feel contributed to getting my system to where I wanted it (I'm _still_ messing with the system tuning, but mainly just VERY, VERY, VERY small, incremental improvements). I realize that you have personally already done a lot of these, but just including the whole list.

This list is in no particular order and I'm sure others will disagree with some of the items, but again, there items are what actually helped me get my system to where _I_ enjoy it the most. 

1. *Get a good DSP!* The Rockford DSR-1 that I started with is great in terms of cost, but it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of functionality, performance and even stability. I upgraded to a PAC AmpPro 4/Helix DSP.3 combo instead of the DSR-1 and that was a huge upgrade, in terms of sound quality (less noise especially) and flexibility.

2. *Get a decent USB measurement MIC*. I initially tried the cheap Dayton IMM-6 with an Android device and that was a waste of time.

3. *Learn Room EQ Wizard! * Spend some time with REW learning the ins and outs of at least it's RTA/EQ functionality. Initially, I was "resisting" REW and wanted to use "simple" Android apps to tune - thinking that learning with the most basic tools was the best route. I was also trying to tune to a "flat" response first and then adjust for "preference" from there (instead of just tuning towards a house curve from the start). Both things were completely wrong and a waste of time.  Huge mistake resisting REW.

4. *Come up with your own house curve!* After trying to tune towards just every pre-defined curve out there, I gave up on them completely. It was obvious that the sound I was going for was NOT what a true "SQ" sound is. I ended up making my own curve based on what sounded good to me. Basically, I just EQ'd things "by ear" and took a measurement to get a rough estimate of what kind of overall curve "shape" I liked. Then I created a smooth, custom curve based on that response - and made many, many, many changes to that curve over time.

5. *Get decent speakers* I upgraded my inexpensive speakers to higher-quality speakers. I don't feel that you need "top of the line" speakers, but I do feel that you are better off with some "middle of the line" speakers.

6. *LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of time/experimentation when it comes to tuning!* In my opinion, the DSP is probably the single-most important part of the system. Learning how to tune the DSP can make a HUGE difference. Don't be afraid to try something "different" or "unconventional".

7. *Tune, Tune, Tune...* Time-alignment is easy, IMO - I just used tape measure measurements and left it be. I didn't feel to need to constantly try and adjust the time alignment. Levels - get the levels of each speaker correct - they are "correct" when the overall measurement matches your target curve. EQ - don't be afraid to boost on the electrical side! Sometimes, even a 6dB electrical boost still ends up as a net cut depending on the other EQ cuts you have defined. 

8. *Rear fill*I personally found that I absolutely needed rear speakers. I tried going with fronts-only for quite a while and it just didn't work for me.

9. *Tune to what you like, not what everyone else says is "correct".* This was a huge one for me. At first, I was determined to follow all of the "rules" for a true "SQ" system - only to find that I didn't like a true "SQ" system!  I like having rear speakers (even more than true "differential rear fill"). I like playing my 6x9 midbass speakers down low (I think I'm at a 58hz electrical highpass setting). I like a bass-heavy sound. I like overlapping my 6x9 midbass speakers and my underseat sub a little. I just recently found that I also like overlapping my door midbass speakers and my dash widebands a little as well - it really seems to help "mesh" the two speakers better. 

10. *Match left and right speakers response as closely as possible.* Use as many EQ bands as you want - I don't care if I have to use all 31 bands of EQ to get the frequency response where I want it. I have no problem with using EQ to help address install-related issues. People will tell you that if you need more than xx bands of EQ, something is wrong. At the end of the day, I use however many EQ bands I need to in order to make the system sound better to me. To me, if I'm not using bands to improve the frequency response, I'm "wasting" them.  Also, the closer that frequency response matches between left and right, the closer the phase response will match as well (what is known as a "minimum phase" environment). Generally speaking, a car behaves like a minimum phase environment.

11. *Allpass filters.* I don't have a phase-measurement system (Smaart, etc). I "measure" phase by looking at the frequency response of "multiple speakers". If my left and right individual responses are the same, then my combined L+R response should look the same as the individual responses (only louder). If the combined L+R response is a different "shape' than the individual responses, then it is probably a phase issue (usually shows up as narrow dips). I've had great success using allpass filters to fix these phase issues. Same thing for "whole side measurements" - I've successfully used allpass filters to get better crossover summation if/as needed.

My system actually sounds pretty awesome right now. Is it a true "SQ" car? Nope. Do _I_ like the way it sounds? YEP.  That is all that really matters to me. I wasted WAY too much time trying to get my system to sound like someone else thinks it should sound. Once I concentrated on the way that _I_ wanted it to sound, I had much better success and was much happier.


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## HCWLSU101 (Apr 30, 2009)

Thanks for this. I have all the right equipment, but I too am struggling with the sound I’m getting from typical house curves. I’m either too muddy bass or sterile in sound. When I try to adjust one, I screw the other up. I got so frustrated this morning that I almost threw my RTA mic and laptop out the window. I think I’m just going to make some manual adjustments by ear and back into it that way.. frustrating to say the least.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

If you are interested, here is my current curve - you can import it as a house curve in REW and try EQ'ing to it and see if you like it. Obviously, you will have to adjust it for your preferences, but may give you a starting point....

A few others have tried it and liked the results...

JT_Curve.txt


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

I like your House Curve, I may try it in the future. One question, do you find the vocals to be very strong, maybe too pronounced, and maybe a little harsh? Only asking because the 200hz through 450hz range is boosted a lot more than standard house curves.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

tjk_bail said:


> I like your House Curve, I may try it in the future. One question, do you find the vocals to be very strong, maybe too pronounced, and maybe a little harsh? Only asking because the 200hz through 450hz range is boosted a lot more than standard house curves.


Honestly, no. I've typically adjusted higher frequencies when I wanted to boost/cut vocals - like 800hz - 2500hz or so (estimate). I've found that having the 200hz-450hz (and even a little higher) boosted more than most curves just gives me more of a midbass-heavy sound.

Like I mentioned, with 500hz xovers, my voices are coming from primarily from above the dash. There may be some minor voice content coming from the mdbass speakers, but it's very little and the only way I can actually tell is if I mute the dash speakers.


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## HCWLSU101 (Apr 30, 2009)

the curve I am working with is actually very close to yours. I agree the slight bump in the 200-400 range adds some fullness.


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## tjk_bail (Feb 2, 2012)

I like the mid-bass heavy sound too. I would rather have lots of low mid-base base, then a loud sub base, to me mid-base base sounds better then sub-base base, if that makes sense. But I also like the sparkle of Mid-Range and Highs. Its very difficult to achieve the sound I want... My tunes end up either to bassy or to much high-end stuff, I cant seem to find the right balance. JT's curve looks like it might be what I've been looking for. I think i'll give it a shot sometime soon.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

I will also mention that my tune may sound a little bass-heavy while sitting in a non-running car, but while actually driving the car, I've found the extra bass actually sounds more "normal" since I seem to lose some midbass while actually driving down the road.

I would constantly have what I thought was the "perfect" balance while sitting in my non-running car in the garage tuning - but then when I actually went for a drive, I found the bass to be lacking a little, so I've learned to make it a little more bass-heavy to compensate. 

Also - not sure if this matters, but I only have a small self-contained under-seat sub (JBL BassPro SL), so not sure if that changes anything - that is also why my bass starts nose-diving at about 35hz - that's just as good as my under-seat sub will do (it's an 8" sub in a tiny 3" high enclosure, with only a 125 watt RMS built-in amp). It actually does a pretty damn good job considering the small size and low power. It's under my passenger seat. Although, it does make sure that all of my bass is "up front" bass. ;-)


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## THX0849 (Sep 24, 2019)

Subd

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## HCWLSU101 (Apr 30, 2009)

tjk_bail said:


> I like the mid-bass heavy sound too. I would rather have lots of low mid-base base, then a loud sub base, to me mid-base base sounds better then sub-base base, if that makes sense. But I also like the sparkle of Mid-Range and Highs. Its very difficult to achieve the sound I want... My tunes end up either to bassy or to much high-end stuff, I cant seem to find the right balance. JT's curve looks like it might be what I've been looking for. I think i'll give it a shot sometime soon.


I am having the same struggle right now. I am after tight Midbass and a “lively” sound. I seem to get tight Midbass and the upper end is off or I get a great upper end and no Midbass. The struggle is real.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

HCWLSU101 said:


> I am having the same struggle right now. I am after tight Midbass and a “lively” sound. I seem to get tight Midbass and the upper end is off or I get a great upper end and no Midbass. The struggle is real.


Have you taken "multiple speaker" measurements? For example, measurements with L+R speaker "pairs" playing together? I just want to make sure you're not having some major phase-related issues. The L+R speaker pair measurements should match the individual speakers measurements in terms of "shape" - just a little louder. 

Same with "whole left side" and "whole right side" to make sure that your crossover regions are summing correctly.

Can you post some actual measurements? If you could post individual and combined speaker measurements, maybe someone can spot an issue.


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## HCWLSU101 (Apr 30, 2009)

jtrosky said:


> Have you taken "multiple speaker" measurements? For example, measurements with L+R speaker "pairs" playing together? I just want to make sure you're not having some major phase-related issues. The L+R speaker pair measurements should match the individual speakers measurements in terms of "shape" - just a little louder.
> 
> Same with "whole left side" and "whole right side" to make sure that your crossover regions are summing correctly.
> 
> Can you post some actual measurements? If you could post individual and combined speaker measurements, maybe someone can spot an issue.



So I believe some of my issues were caused in how I was measuring. I was holding the microphone at a 90 degree angle and going from ear to ear. I adjusted some today just with my ears and when I only moved the mic slowly from temple to temple I saw on the screen what I was hearing with my ears. I am posting some pics of my latest tune which sounds pretty good but still needs some adjustment. The bass is still off and not quite as tight as I would like:

Front Stage









Left Side:










Right Side:











Left Mid to Sub









Right Mid to Sub










All Playing together:


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## HCWLSU101 (Apr 30, 2009)

My ears are obviously looking for a sound similar to what you like also. Your house curve was really close JT:


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