# Amplifiers still made in U.S.A. ?



## M3NTAL

What are some amplifiers being built in U.S.A. still?

Don't turn this into a quality debate - this is purely an "inquiring minds" thread.


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## BLACKonBLACK98

tru technology is. i'm sure there are others as well.


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## AAAAAAA

The higher end lines of rockford, MTX Xtant and us amps


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## M3NTAL

You need to list actual product lines, not blanket statements that will confuse people.


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## drtool

Zapco CK Line


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## M3NTAL

As stated by Black on Black 98 all Tru Technology amplifiers are built in the U.S.A. according to their website.


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## Boostedrex

As far as I know:

Zed Audio
Tru
Zapco CK
Arc SE


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## [email protected]

AAAAAAA said:


> The higher end lines of rockford, MTX Xtant and us amps


none of these are us made anymore and I dont think xtant is around anymore


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## M3NTAL

Boostedrex might have the complete list there. Pretty sad.


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## Boostedrex

What about McIntosh? Are they U.S. made?


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## dual700

Boostedrex said:


> What about McIntosh? Are they U.S. made?


Yes, and add Lunar too.


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## Boostedrex

dual700 said:


> Yes, and add Lunar too.


So that brings the list to:

Zed Audio
Zapco CK
Arc SE
McIntosh
Lunar
Tru Technologies


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## txbonds

Boostedrex said:


> So that brings the list to:
> 
> Zed Audio
> Zapco CK
> Arc SE
> McIntosh
> Lunar
> Tru Technologies


Not saying it is or isn't, but if you go over to the Arc 125.4 thread going on and follow the links to UBUY, there is clearly a picture of what looks to be an Arc SE amp on their website, which leads me to belive it may be built in Tiawan also. I could be wrong though, just going on the picture on the website.

http://www.allproducts.com/ee/ubuy/supplier.html

http://www.arcaudio.com/productdescription_pages/amplifiers/signature-edition/se4200.asp


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## ChrisB

BeatsDownLow said:


> none of these are us made anymore and I dont think xtant is around anymore


I was shocked to NOT see a "Made in the USA" sticker on my 25 to Life Power 1000. I picked up a used Punch P5002 and a used Power 351S and both of them have "Made in the USA" but not my big daddy. In fact, my Power 1000 doesn't even say where it is made.... My guess is Korea or China?


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## skylar112

txbonds said:


> Not saying it is or isn't, but if you go over to the Arc 125.4 thread going on and follow the links to UBUY, there is clearly a picture of what looks to be an Arc SE amp on their website, which leads me to belive it may be built in Tiawan also. I could be wrong though, just going on the picture on the website.
> 
> http://www.allproducts.com/ee/ubuy/supplier.html
> 
> http://www.arcaudio.com/productdescription_pages/amplifiers/signature-edition/se4200.asp


I thought they were made in the US? Or at least I read somewhere that they said it was made here. It would be pretty wack if it wasn't.


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## Boostedrex

Nah, the SE line is the only line that is all U.S. for Arc. They are pretty big on that fact. (As well they should be IMHO)


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## chefhow

Arent MATTS Amps still made down in Fl? How about US Amps?


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## Boostedrex

chefhow said:


> Arent MATTS Amps still made down in Fl? How about US Amps?


I can't speak for their high end line, but the budget U.S. Amps X-terminator series are made in Asia. Don't know anything about MATTS current operation.


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## lyttleviet

I have my eye on a couple of TRUs...


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## 6spdcoupe

Interesting thread ...


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## M3NTAL

Is that honest or sarcastic 6spdcoupe?

I only ask because IMO you are well regarded here and other forums.


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## 6spdcoupe

It was honest. My curiosity peaked a bit to see the replies both already posted and to come.


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## Boostedrex

M3NTAL said:


> Is that honest or sarcastic 6spdcoupe?
> 
> I only ask because IMO you are well regarded here and other forums.


Nah, he just knows that you're a trouble maker Don. ROFL!!!


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## POLKAT

Harrison Labs


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## 6spdcoupe

Boostedrex said:


> Nah, he just knows that you're a trouble maker Don. ROFL!!!


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## M3NTAL

My mother actually used to hand build the amplifiers when I was younger. All the AZ companies used to sub-contract their builds out.

She made amps/x-overs/eq's for PPI, Fosgate and MTX. They were completely hand assembled and built in our house.. in the USA!

They eventually lost their contract when the companies purchased flow soldering machines. They were cheaper in the long run and faster. That is when everything went down hill quickly.

Most of my old "goodies" are long gone now. I donated a bunch of them to Guy at Soundwerks.


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## txbonds

Is JL Audio made in US?


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## M3NTAL

Good question, I was wondering that too. If they are.. I am defiantly going scoop some up.


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## ca90ss

txbonds said:


> Is JL Audio made in US?


No.


.


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## BLD MOVS

I emailed Treo here in Omaha. My guess is no, but I thought I'd give them a chance.


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## BLD MOVS

I just received an email response:

"All TREO subwoofers and SSX amplifiers are built in the USA."


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## M3NTAL

That is good to hear. Those are really nice amplifiers that are overlooked very often


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## ca90ss

Define "Made in the USA". What percentage of an amplifier has to be made here for it to be considered made in the USA?


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## M3NTAL

Research & Development 100% U.S.A
Heatsink: Extrusion, CNC Machine work 100% U.S.A
Blank P.C. Board 100% U.S.A
P.C. Board: Assembly & Final Assembly 100% U.S.A
Final Quality Control 100% U.S.A
Packaging 100% U.S.A
Parts U.S.A., Mexico, Europe, & Asia 


Something like that - taken from Tru Technologies website


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## txbonds

Are the Sundown's US Made?


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## M3NTAL

Nowhere on their website do the claim USA made (Sundown)


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## chefhow

BLD MOVS said:


> I just received an email response:
> 
> "All TREO subwoofers and SSX amplifiers are built in the USA."


Built in the US of 100% Korean parts...


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## AAAAAAA

Last I heard us amps AX series were USA built.
They had pictures of em building them in house in 07.


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## ChrisB

I have seen the latest marketing trend with some car audio manufacturers where they say "Designed in the USA". It is kind of sad when you think about it because I remember back in the late 80s and early 90s where one would be chastised for running an amplifier that was NOT Made in the USA!


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## Hispls

Boostedrex said:


> What about McIntosh? Are they U.S. made?


Local dealer told me their head units are now made by Clarion (NOT in USA). Who knows about their amps? You'd kind of hope so for the money huh?

Mmats claims 100% made in Florida (why did US Amps sell out )


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## sundownz

txbonds said:


> Are the Sundown's US Made?


They are not. All current models are South Korean and I am working on some in China.

I'd like to do a "flag-ship" line made in the USA one of these days


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## XC-C30

as far as I know McIntosh = clarion. MX406=HX-D2


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## MACS

Clarion has not owned McIntosh for a long time. They are now part of D&M Holdings. The MX-406 and MX-5000 are made in Japan. The McIntosh amps are Binghamton, NY. 

-------

What about Milbert amps?? Not mainstream, but seems like I remember them being US made.


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## AAAAAAA

Japan made is just a prestigeous as US made really.


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## rc10mike

Zapco Reference are made in the US.


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## drewpage55

ca90ss said:


> No.
> 
> 
> .


You sure? The JL 500/1 and 300/4 I have both say they're made in the USA...


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## ca90ss

drewpage55 said:


> You sure? The JL 500/1 and 300/4 I have both say they're made in the USA...


Korea


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## kyheng

Well, as long as not China I guess is still ok.....
Anyway A series also from Korea? As I opened my A6450 before, I cannot see where it is made from, only can see its complex circuit design unlike those made in China cheap amps.


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## jimboman

drewpage55 said:


> You sure? The JL 500/1 and 300/4 I have both say they're made in the USA...



Are they real? Refurbs? Something of that nature?

My 300/4 I had was Korea.


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## M3NTAL

The layout in the JL amps are defiantly original - non knock-offs, possibly USA, but production+assembly??? Need to get Manville in on that one.


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## dragnix

perhaps their HD line could at least be made in the US. But i doubt it


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## thehatedguy

JL amps are Korean made.


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## MACS

AAAAAAA said:


> Japan made is just a prestigeous as US made really.


Japan(Phass, Luxman) and the European amp companies(Brax, Sinfoni, Genesis, Steg, Audison, etc.) picked up the torch the American companies dropped. Those companies pretty much own the high end market.


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## drewpage55

ca90ss said:


> Korea


Its even worse, I looked at the amp boxes and they actually say "Manufactured in China". The subs boxes say Made in the USA, but then in smaller print be low say "with imported and domestic parts"


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## Oliver

Finest rice and chopsticks you can buy !

about 6 years ago I saw a company from Jakarta, Indonesia selling [ US amps ], that was the name of them.

Someday we will see "Proudly made in China" on a box


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## xanderin

Milbert http://www.milbert.com/ 
World's only 100% all-tube car amp handmade in USA since 1986. 

T3 Audio http://www.t3audio.com/core.mdv/about.html
3 Audio, a company developed from 18 years of competition proven technology, is based out of Gainesville Georgia, USA, with production and warehousing facilities located in Chattanooga Tennessee and Leesburg Florida as well.

Digital Designs http://www.ddaudio.com/dd/default.asp
Made in Oklahoma


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## Oliver

xanderin said:


> Digital Designs http://www.ddaudio.com/dd/default.asp
> Made in Oklahoma


You can get chopsticks with some of their amps !

Subwoofers are made in the usa


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## Hispls

AAAAAAA said:


> Japan made is just a prestigeous as US made really.


Agreed. Japan or Europe I'd say. But I'd wager the list from those counrties are equally short.


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## trebor

xanderin said:


> Digital Designs http://www.ddaudio.com/dd/default.asp
> Made in Oklahoma


DD amps are Korean made.


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## Daishi

Arc Audio stuff is not made in the states. It gets really shady as to what counts as built in the USA. I believe it only requires 60% to be assembled here to count as built here...but you can have the board already prebuilt and it counts as one part


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## chefhow

xanderin said:


> Milbert http://www.milbert.com/
> World's only 100% all-tube car amp handmade in USA since 1986.
> 
> T3 Audio http://www.t3audio.com/core.mdv/about.html
> 3 Audio, a company developed from 18 years of competition proven technology, is based out of Gainesville Georgia, USA, with production and warehousing facilities located in Chattanooga Tennessee and Leesburg Florida as well.
> 
> Digital Designs http://www.ddaudio.com/dd/default.asp
> Made in Oklahoma



T3 Audio is a speaker company, I dont think they make amps.


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## ChrisB

I just discovered a lie with my Orion HCCA 250 G4!

On the outside it says this:









On the inside it says this:









I think the G4 amps came AFTER the DEI buyout, so was my amp made in Korea? I have a HCCA 225 G5, and that one does NOT say "Made in the USA" on it!


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## jonnyanalog

AAAAAAA said:


> The higher end lines of rockford, MTX Xtant and us amps


RF stopped their US manufacturing in August. Everything now comes out of China.


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## foosman

Tru's certainly are.


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## AAAAAAA

jonnyanalog said:


> RF stopped their US manufacturing in August. Everything now comes out of China.


Yeah it's to bad that those 2 big names (MTX AND RF) are out of the country, well your country.


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## ChrisB

AAAAAAA said:


> Yeah it's to bad that those 2 big names (MTX AND RF) are out of the country, well your country.


Or our continent


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## BigRed

TRU dat!!


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## M3NTAL

Is there any reps on this site for TRU? I wouldn't mind getting a quote on one of their amplifiers.


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## anjing

Last time I check, Abyss(Korean company) used to supply the internal boards and heatsink for Tru.
Most people in USA doesn't know about this, but a lot of Car audio hobbyist from Asia(Especially S'pore, Malaysia and Indonesia) knows about this fact.

Here is what they(One of their distributor) said about TRU Amp;
---------------------------------------------------------------------
_Abyss were the manufacturer for TRU amplifier until 2005... for certain reason, the contact is terminated by Abyss and TRU moves to another company to work on their amplifier...

The former model of TRU amplifier such as T1, T2, T03, C7, C7T and A Class as well as the active crossovers are most likely 95% the same as Abyss CT series, MFA Series, TB Series and A Class... the major differences I noticed is only the cable used in TRU is Kimber while Abyss using BRAX... a minor components such as resistors or maybe capacitors were modified from Abyss...

As distributor of Abyss in anywhere in the world will struggle against TRU who claims to be the origin... so, I had a discussion with the Abyss International to make changes on the product lines... hopefully starting 2008, we can have a complete different model than before except for the Abyss A Class which is one of our masterpiece...

CT14750 & CT12500 = TRU T1 --> WILL NO LONGER AVAILABLE (Model change to CT2.300 & CT4.400 with higher output power and better speciication)
CT24400 & CT32500 = TRU T03 --> WILL NO LONGER AVAILABLE (New Model still in progress)
MFA7.4 & MFA7.2 = C7.2 & C7.4 --> We have upgrade the components as well as the power output
TB2150 & TB4100 = C7.2T & C7.4T --> Hasn't got any news
CT2000 = Hammer Series J Fairchiled --> NO LONGER AVAILABLE (New Model is Power 1.5K)
Abyss A Class = TRU A Class --> OUR BENCHMARK_
------------------------------------------------------------------
From What I heard, abyss terminated their contract with TRU because TRU actually use "Abyss's design" to be manufactured again in China,

Personally, I have listened both Abyss and Tru Amp (The Copper Class A series), I prefer Abyss amp. And ++++ It's a lot cheaper ! 

Sorry TRU user, Truth hurts.
Just my 2 Cent.

Links:
COPPER LINE:
http://en.iabyss.co.kr/product/product_view.html?no=47&jong0=abyss&jong1=AMP&page=1
http://en.iabyss.co.kr/product/product_view.html?no=39&jong0=abyss&jong1=AMP&page=2
http://en.iabyss.co.kr/product/product_view.html?no=38&jong0=abyss&jong1=AMP&page=2

TO-3 Line:
http://en.iabyss.co.kr/product/product_view.html?no=33&jong0=abyss&jong1=AMP&page=2

HUMMER:
http://en.iabyss.co.kr/product/product_view.html?no=35&jong0=abyss&jong1=AMP&page=2

My Dream amp: 
http://en.iabyss.co.kr/product/product_view.html?no=86&jong0=abyss&jong1=AMP&page=1
and also this:
http://en.iabyss.co.kr/product/product_view.html?no=43&jong0=zelos&jong1=AMP&page=1


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## AAAAAAA

interesting










http://en.iabyss.co.kr/company.html


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## 6spdcoupe

anjing said:


> Last time I check, Abyss(Korean company) used to supply the internal boards and heatsink for Tru.
> Most people in USA doesn't know about this, but a lot of Car audio hobbyist from Asia(Especially S'pore, Malaysia and Indonesia) knows about this fact.
> I have listened both Abyss and Tru Amp (The Copper Class A series), I prefer Abyss amp. ++++ It's a lot cheaper !
> 
> Just my 2 Cent.


THAT and the details behind it have no reflection on current offerings as it is not the case today.

Cheaper _should_ sound 'better', it's a placebo thing.


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## Eric Stevens

AAAAAAA said:


> interesting


The amps that shared anything with the Abyss or Korean made stuff was prior to the Billet series and now the Steel.

All are now as stated on their website.

Really good stuff can be made in just about any country, but it is easier in some and darn difficult in others.

Eric
ID


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## low

those abyss amps are still darn fine amps.  good ole usa stuff still exist if you look hard enough


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## skylar112

Who cares where its made, I'd buy something good, even if its from Zimbabwe. Irrelevant.


And I'm sure with such a engineer legend like John Fairchild, TRU need to buy designs from someone else. Who cares?!


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## anjing

I believe we all care. and you should care too if you try to discuss about "Amplifiers still made in U.S.A. ?"

Last time I check, we try to talk about which amp is still made in USA;
In my opinion, based on the fact I've seen, TRU Amp certainly are not.


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## 6spdcoupe

anjing said:


> I believe we all care. and you should care too if you try to discuss about "Amplifiers still made in U.S.A. ?"
> 
> Last time I check, we try to talk about which amp is still made in USA;
> In my opinion, based on the fact I've seen, TRU Amp certainly are not.


Fact? Care to elaborate and share this 'fact' that you have recently seen and can prove? I mean after all if it is a fact, proving it should be of no problem right?

Of course your statement does leave a bit to the imagination as stated: "In my opinion" goes to: " based on the *fact *I've seen". So which is it?


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## 6spdcoupe

anjing said:


> I believe we *all *care. and you should care too if you try to discuss about "Amplifiers still made in U.S.A. ?"



Oh and no, I could care less where manufactured provided it lives up to it's hype. Regardless of brand performance should meet or exceed as advertised. Of course all of this relies on said company holding up their end of the bargain and stating where it is actually made not 'assembled', 'designed' , 'engineered' or any other colorful words they may choose. Made in Antartica? I could give a crap as long as they don't try to hide that fact.


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## low

theres always one that pops up. sheesh....


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## 6spdcoupe

Sad, but true.


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## skylar112

anjing said:


> I believe we all care. and you should care too if you try to discuss about "Amplifiers still made in U.S.A. ?"
> 
> Last time I check, we try to talk about which amp is still made in USA;
> In my opinion, based on the fact I've seen, TRU Amp certainly are not.


What have you seen that concludes TRU amps aren't built in the USA? There's even some British guy who flew to California to build his own line driver, I suppose that that was fake too.

And I still don't care where its coming from, as long as at the end that I get the product with the performance I want out of it. Just being that the Steels and Billets are made in the USA, that's an added bonus. I've had plenty of talks about this, I understand the politics of TRU/Abyss. Trust me with John Fairchild(RIP) at that time, who's a genius there's no need for them to have Abyss design amps for them. It was the other way around, there's no way anyone would let that kind of talent go to waste. Abyss and TRU got together as a bunch of guys trying to save production cost, using a TRU/Fairchild design with agreements for Abyss to distribute only in Asia. It was a collaboration made to save production cost. That's it. If you want to believe that those Abyss amps sounded better than the TRUs at that time, then you are delusional. They were the same amps. You just discredit yourself. Today TRU and Abyss have severed their ties, TRU is its own company with zero affiliation to Abyss. TRU remains to be an American amp, made with enough American parts to make it made in USA. I gain nothing by telling any of this.


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## ChrisB

I would be willing to bet that Abyss ripped off TRU's design. After all, we have seen the Chinese steal other designs and mass produce them from electronics to firearms. I wouldn't put it past a Korean manufacturer to do the same thing.


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## dual700

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I would be willing to bet that Abyss ripped off TRU's design. After all, we have seen the Chinese steal other designs and mass produce them from electronics to firearms. I wouldn't put it past a Korean manufacturer to do the same thing.


Umm, no. Sorry.


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## bassfromspace

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> I would be willing to bet that Abyss ripped off TRU's design. After all, we have seen the Chinese steal other designs and mass produce them from electronics to firearms. I wouldn't put it past a Korean manufacturer to do the same thing.


It's actually the opposite.


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## low

good artists copy....great artists steal


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## M3NTAL

Don't turn this thread into a flamewar please.

This thread is not about QUALITY!

I am more interested in supporting the hard working people of America whenever possible.


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## bassfromspace

M3NTAL said:


> I am more interested in supporting the hard working people of America whenever possible.


Good Luck.


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## M3NTAL

It doesn't take luck. Do you do manual labor in America? Sketchy comment if you do.


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## GlasSman

thehatedguy said:


> JL amps are Korean made.


...by the Chunglam buildhouse.


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## br85

I find it interesting to watch people try their best to support their own country's economy/workers (it's just as bad here in aus as it is in USA) in a world that's very quickly picking up a unified economy. But aside from that, *why is an american worker or australian worker more deserving of our support than a chinese or korean worker? * 

It's a bit extreme to say, but from the perspective of a person with no real patriotism in them, it comes across as racism.

Ok, clearly many of those chinese and korean people are being exploited, and probably not seeing many of our pennys at all, but do we help them more by not paying for the product they've made? It's a tough one to grapple with, for sure.


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## anjing

6spdcoupe said:


> Oh and no, I could care less where manufactured provided it lives up to it's hype. Regardless of brand performance should meet or exceed as advertised. Of course all of this relies on said company holding up their end of the bargain and stating where it is actually made not 'assembled', 'designed' , 'engineered' or any other colorful words they may choose. Made in Antartica? I could give a crap as long as they don't try to hide that fact.


That's the point ! I am not questioning TRU amp performance or it's quality. But when someone trying the hide 'that fact' about where it is made in.

And I do give a crap where an amp is made, this is my I post my opinion in this topic called "Amplifiers still made in U.S.A. ?".

If anyone else doesn't give a crap where an amp is made, please have it posted in different topic discussion, maybe called "Who gives a crap where an amp is made from".


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## anjing

skylar112 said:


> What have you seen that concludes TRU amps aren't built in the USA? There's even some British guy who flew to California to build his own line driver, I suppose that that was fake too.
> 
> And I still don't care where its coming from, as long as at the end that I get the product with the performance I want out of it. Just being that the Steels and Billets are made in the USA, that's an added bonus. I've had plenty of talks about this, I understand the politics of TRU/Abyss. Trust me with John Fairchild(RIP) at that time, who's a genius there's no need for them to have Abyss design amps for them. It was the other way around, there's no way anyone would let that kind of talent go to waste. Abyss and TRU got together as a bunch of guys trying to save production cost, using a TRU/Fairchild design with agreements for Abyss to distribute only in Asia. It was a collaboration made to save production cost. That's it. If you want to believe that those Abyss amps sounded better than the TRUs at that time, then you are delusional. They were the same amps. You just discredit yourself. Today TRU and Abyss have severed their ties, TRU is its own company with zero affiliation to Abyss. TRU remains to be an American amp, made with enough American parts to make it made in USA. I gain nothing by telling any of this.


Even there're the same amp. The point is TRU amp is an american amp company that is made outside USA !!! 
I gain nothing too by telling any of this.


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## anjing

M3NTAL said:


> Don't turn this thread into a flamewar please.
> 
> This thread is not about QUALITY!
> 
> I am more interested in supporting the hard working people of America whenever possible.


AGREE !!! 

Read the title of the topic please !! It doesn't say anything about quality nor "who care where it's made from".

Let's go back in the main topics about *Amplifiers still made in U.S.A. *


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## kyheng

I'm a chinese anyway...
Anyway not to insult everyone one here, but take few things into considerations:
1. Most(can I use all?) of the manufacturers want to have a return for what they sell.
2. In first world countries like US and Australia(some others as well), human rights is very strong. So the pay increament is a must for every year. At such the return for manufacturers will be lesser. Don't forget that they have to do advertisments to promote thei stuffs too.
3. Pay for a worker at US maybe enough to pay 5-10 workers in Asia developing countries.

Bottom line : don't care where the amp is made from, what we have to care most is the quality of component used.


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## M3NTAL

None of the reasons you have listed are important to me.
My family members have lost their jobs multiple times from outsourcing. It makes it very rough for the whole family.




br85 said:


> I find it interesting to watch people try their best to support their own country's economy/workers (it's just as bad here in aus as it is in USA) in a world that's very quickly picking up a unified economy. But aside from that, *why is an american worker or australian worker more deserving of our support than a chinese or korean worker? *
> 
> It's a bit extreme to say, but from the perspective of a person with no real patriotism in them, it comes across as racism.
> 
> Ok, clearly many of those chinese and korean people are being exploited, and probably not seeing many of our pennys at all, but do we help them more by not paying for the product they've made? It's a tough one to grapple with, for sure.


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## ChrisB

low said:


> good artists copy....great artists steal


I stand corrected on the TRU thing, but I kind of agree with ^^^^^^


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## 6spdcoupe

anjing said:


> Even there're the same amp. The point is TRU amp is an american amp company that is made outside USA !!!
> I gain nothing too by telling any of this.


 Once I again I will ask for your proof, since you touted the 'fact' word proof should be easy. Yet you have failed to provide anything.


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## BigRed

amjing, your comments are false. I know for a fact and have seen with MY OWN EYES the steel series amps from tru being made while I was at their facility.....have you seen otherwise?? have you been to their facility lately?? and please, I don't give a rats ass about the past. RIGHT NOW, as we speak, the steel series is being made in california.

The answer to this thread is, YES, the tru steel series is being made here in the U.S. of A. I've seen it with my own eyes, not from behind a computer screen


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## M3NTAL

BigRed does this apply to the Billet series too?


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## 6spdcoupe

Yes it does.


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## 6spdcoupe

Here is a prime example of what can be done ...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45181

It's nice to know a company can do custom work upon request.


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## low

6spdcoupe said:


> Here is a prime example of what can be done ...
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45181
> 
> It's nice to know a company can do custom work upon request.


good stuff. theyve done this type of thing early on too.


----------



## CAMSHAFT

BigRed said:


> amjing, your comments are false. I know for a fact and have seen with MY OWN EYES the steel series amps from tru being made while I was at their facility.....have you seen otherwise?? have you been to their facility lately?? and please, I don't give a rats ass about the past. RIGHT NOW, as we speak, the steel series is being made in california.
> 
> The answer to this thread is, YES, the tru steel series is being made here in the U.S. of A. I've seen it with my own eyes, not from behind a computer screen


Not from behind a computer screen LOL!!! I have been to La Crescenta as well!! I saw quite a few amps being made in various stages of products! I was even given a demo with a half assembled amp on Dynaudio Home Contour Two ways---> beautiful BTW. Amjing you are mistaken!!!!!


----------



## AzGrower

Zuki?


----------



## Boostedrex

nevermind


----------



## Daishi

anjing said:


> Even there're the same amp. The point is TRU amp is an american amp company that is made outside USA !!!
> I gain nothing too by telling any of this.


DUDE!!!!!!!

TRU, up until 2005 WERE made outside of the US. They are NOW made in the US. Give it up


----------



## anjing

BigRed said:


> amjing, your comments are false. I know for a fact and have seen with MY OWN EYES the steel series amps from tru being made while I was at their facility.....have you seen otherwise?? have you been to their facility lately?? and please, I don't give a rats ass about the past. RIGHT NOW, as we speak, the steel series is being made in california.
> 
> The answer to this thread is, YES, the tru steel series is being made here in the U.S. of A. I've seen it with my own eyes, not from behind a computer screen


BigRed, I see your point.
However, Before year 2005, Abyss did make the amp for TRU, yet they claimed that it was made in USA.

I never been in their facility but my concern is that what makes you think that they would tell the truth about where's their current amp is made now if they didn't tell the truth in the past(before 2005 when they still had a contract with ABYSS).

But if you believe that they make it in USA for their current model, then it's good then.

After all, I think both Abyss and TRU are very well made amp and they both have a very high quality. but ONLY one of them is just a better deal for the money.



Just my 2 cent.


----------



## anjing

CAMSHAFT said:


> Not from behind a computer screen LOL!!! I have been to La Crescenta as well!! I saw quite a few amps being made in various stages of products! I was even given a demo with a half assembled amp on Dynaudio Home Contour Two ways---> beautiful BTW. Amjing you are mistaken!!!!!


I could be mistaken since I never been in their facility.

All I know, they didn't tell the Truth in the past about where's it was made.

I understand you were given a demo with half assembled. Did you actually see it it was Assembled(All the part was assembled together) or was it manufactured(From blank PCB board) ?


----------



## anjing

6spdcoupe said:


> Here is a prime example of what can be done ...
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45181
> 
> It's nice to know a company can do custom work upon request.


Not trying to be smart here, but I really didn't see any picture that demonstrated they were making the amp(from PCB board, etc).

It's great pictures you have that show how it was assembled.

So my vote now for TRU is no longer "Assembled outside USA".
It should be "Assembled in USA". One more step closer to "Made in USA". But NOT YET 

Alright, I have my fun discussing with you all.
Move on guys, 
let's talk about other AMPs that is made in USA.

Peace out.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

anjing said:


> Not trying to be smart here, but I really didn't see any picture that demonstrated they were making the amp(from PCB board, etc).
> 
> It's great pictures you have that show how it was assembled.
> 
> So my vote now for TRU is no longer "Assembled outside USA".
> It should be "Assembled in USA". One more step closer to "Made in USA". But NOT YET
> 
> Alright, I have my fun discussing with you all.
> Move on guys,
> let's talk about other AMPs that is made in USA.
> 
> Peace out.



That link was put there simply to show what can be done upon request. It was not an offer of 'proof' since I still remain Not needing that.

Quite humorous that you moved from definitely not at all made here AND you knew this for *fact* to now stating it is assembled here. Your too much my friend. 

I'll sit here and wait for these *facts* that you still have yet to show.


----------



## BigRed

check it out......I saw with MY OWN EYES blank boards in a box, probably 75 of them and watched with MY OWN EYES John doing assembly on my S45. I waited while John went and picked up from the silkscreener in burbank my casing for the S45. I saw with MY OWN EYES John assemble this casing to finish my amp off when he was done with all the other parts. 

I know they have had a rough past, and I'm not really interested in that as happiness begins when you realize your past isn't getting any better or different  I understand your concerns anjing about the past, but to stay on topic, the steel series is made in La Crescent, Ca. It qualifes as an amp made in the usa. 

no harm no foul


----------



## Daishi

But but but...you didn't see him hand lay the blank PCB (i.e. make the blank PCB itself before soldering on the components) or machine the heatsink from scratch. It's obviously not made here LOL.


----------



## BigRed

ok, but but but you have'nt seen any of these other "made in the usa" companies lay their pcb's either right? or have you? yeah John gets the blank boards, has them shipped to La Crescenta, and then ships them to china to be built so they can be shipped back when they are completed. yeah, you're right, you win Daishi. Thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## Daishi

Umm, you realize it was ****ing sarcasm right? Look at post #105


----------



## Daishi

Had to use it.


----------



## Lumadar

It's a BOLD move for a company to choose to produce products like these in the USA, especially when you have to figure that the "country of origin" is not exactly a huge qualifier for most of the buyers (young people). I myself am only 24, but I definitely appreciate the importance of keeping jobs and money in America if at all possible.

I salute the companies that are making an effort to keep THEIR efforts stateside.


----------



## FoxPro5

anjing said:


> I could be mistaken since I never been in their facility.


Not could, you are mistaken.

TRU buys parts for their amps from the local community in the LA area. For example, a shop down the street does the heat sink, another across town does something else, and so on. They source parts locally, put the amps together and sell them all over the world, not just the US. A lot of their business is overseas.

The engineer that designed their SSLD6 has posted on this very forum. I own one, and it's a great piece of equipment and i'd still say so even if had been manufactured by line driver gnomes living in a mystical forest off the coast of Madagascar.


----------



## CAMSHAFT

anjing said:


> I understand you were given a demo with half assembled. Did you actually see it it was Assembled(All the part was assembled together) or was it manufactured(From blank PCB board) ?


 The bottom plate and one of the side plates werent on. 

Again I saw multiple amps in various stages of manufacturing. In fact the day I was there John received heat sinks from the guy that CNC's them from BILLET!!! Yes he showed me blank PC boards, $5 op-amps (not sure on the price), and sexy little tubes... .


----------



## BigRed

sorry daishi, forgot about the other 100 posts  no offense taken.


----------



## jimboman

Lumadar said:


> especially when you have to figure that the "country of origin" is not exactly a huge qualifier for most of the buyers (young people).


Unfortunelty this seems true nowadays. When I was younger and starting out in car audio (mid 90's), it did matter to me, (but most big name brands were USA made then), and it still does... 

Now it just seems like people are just after the "bling" factor, and they don't give a hoot as to where its made.


----------



## M3NTAL

It seems that the ones still made in the U.S.A. are still considered highly regarded.


----------



## sr20det510

tvrift said:


> Zapco Reference are made in the US.


Black powder coated reference line were made in the USA! New ones are not!


----------



## thehatedguy

Some business do exactly that. That's how our Nike shoes get made...so it happens.



BigRed said:


> ok, but but but you have'nt seen any of these other "made in the usa" companies lay their pcb's either right? or have you? yeah John gets the blank boards, has them shipped to La Crescenta, and then ships them to china to be built so they can be shipped back when they are completed. yeah, you're right, you win Daishi. Thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## thehatedguy

I still want a pair or triplet of Tru Class A amps.


----------



## br85

M3NTAL said:


> None of the reasons you have listed are important to me.
> My family members have lost their jobs multiple times from outsourcing. It makes it very rough for the whole family.


That's fair enough, and I sympathize with your reasons for not buying outsourced (all "outsourcing" is really to do with slave labor anyway) car audio gear. Mind you, How do you feel about buying something like peerless speakers made in Denmark? No American has ever lost their job because of the fact that the founders of peerless want to make their drivers in their own country. And it's fairly well known that europe *generally* just kick ass at making good speakers.

It's not to say you should NOT buy american. It's just that it is easy to go overboard. I dare say you would have to be a very wealthy person indeed to not buy ANYTHING that is manufactured in china or korea, or you would just have to be a very minimalist consumer. 

Here in aus (don't know what it's like in america really) I would have to spend $90 for an aussie or USA made T-shirt equal in quality to a chinese one at $12. Also because there's very little demand for such expensive middle-of-the-road shirts, there are very few designs available, which in turn means that prices go up if the manufacturers are to survive. Something like garlic, too, chinese is like $1.99/kilogram, australian or russian garlic is $39.99/kilogram. I don't want to support outsourcing/slave labor, but I also aren't absolutely MADE of money (the whole minimum wage thing).


----------



## kevin k.

thehatedguy said:


> I still want a pair or triplet of Tru Class A amps.


Hey Jason 

Are you talking about the TRU 'A-Class' amps? That was the model name, if I'm not mistaken, although they seemed to get called "Class A" a lot. The high-bias AB's that were 200W/Ch with the first 20% to 25% being Class A? Nice looking amps. I imagine your horns would love 'em, although it's not like you're going without right now. 

Or was there a real and completely Class A amp offered that I missed?

Hope all's well with you.


----------



## Mooble

br85 said:


> Here in aus (don't know what it's like in america really) I would have to spend $90 for an aussie or USA made T-shirt equal in quality to a chinese one at $12. Also because there's very little demand for such expensive middle-of-the-road shirts, there are very few designs available, which in turn means that prices go up if the manufacturers are to survive. Something like garlic, too, chinese is like $1.99/kilogram, australian or russian garlic is $39.99/kilogram. I don't want to support outsourcing/slave labor, but I also aren't absolutely MADE of money (the whole minimum wage thing).


What happened to the famous Aussie tariffs? I haven't been there in many years, but Australia viciously protected local industry buy charging 300% tariffs on some imported goods, making domestic items much cheaper by comparison. I remember paying something like $120 for regular Levis in Australia that would cost me $30 in the USA.

It's important to keep local industry alive for independence sake. Once you lose the capacity to make something, you are at the mercy of what someone will charge. Once upon a time, America was oil independent. We were actually the world's largest oil exporter for many decades. Now we pay $100 for a barrel of oil when we should have taken those riches and invested in technology that we controlled. Car amplifiers are a poor example, but with something more vital like electronics components that are used in absolutely everything, we will be at the mercy of anyone who controls the supply. They can charge whatever they want or they can simply withold supply to cripple an economy. By the time it took to rebuild the factories and retrain the workforce, we'd already be DOA.

WOOHOO!!!! 1000 posts!!!!


----------



## GlasSman

thehatedguy said:


> I still want a pair or triplet of Tru Class A amps.



If those are now made in china.....I'll take the Abyss Class A's or least the CT series/Copper.


----------



## GlasSman

Boostedrex said:


> Nah, the SE line is the only line that is all U.S. for Arc. They are pretty big on that fact. (As well they should be IMHO)


Just read the ARc Mini 125.4 thread.

I hope they at least do final QC checks here in the US after pulling them off the pallet and before placing them in the black sock bags.


----------



## tomtomjr

Never knew it was that bad. Down to 3-4 amplifier makers in the USA. WOW... I remember 20-25 years ago, every major city had a car audio mfg company of some type. Things sure have changed since my boom days. I am guessing that is another reason the old-school USA amps are selling so well these days. 
I got lots of new in box amps that are made in the USA. Only thing is they are 20+ years old...Sucks to see all the companies go overseas. 
Think about if Orion or RF started making them here again. Would you pay the extra $ for the made in USA label? I would, but would most? Probably not. Most of the average people will want the best bang for the buck. Only a few of us care about where it was made anymore. Me personally, I want hand-built amps. Made in the USA. (Harrison?, yes I like them very much, and have 9 of their amps) 
I tried to see about getting an extra recone kit for one of my Clarion 32's, and kept getting transferred till finally I gave up. Years ago, I could call Zapco, and RF, and get to the maker of the amps. They could get you any part you wanted, and they had it in stock. Try that these days. Granted, they still have support, but it is not the same. Just my 2 cents...


----------



## quality_sound

GlasSman said:


> Just read the ARc Mini 125.4 thread.
> 
> I hope they at least do final QC checks here in the US after pulling them off the pallet and before placing them in the black sock bags.


Final assembly, CPU programming, final QC, and testing are all done in Modesto. You should see the power supplies they use to test the 4000SEs.


----------



## OldSkool_08

Reference Hi-Fi?

I am not sure but a member was selling an amplifier from this company and they stated they were made in Washington State.

Link: http://www.referencehifi.net/index.php


----------



## vjgli

quality_sound said:


> Final assembly, CPU programming, final QC, and testing are all done in Modesto. You should see the power supplies they use to test the 4000SEs.


Core Assembly:
Basically, PCB is completely stuffed, soldered and electrical qc in where?

Final Assembly:
Then ARC is merely slapping some grease and screw to heatsink which is probably extruded, machined, polished, painted and silk-screened where?

CPU Programming:
Uhh, 5 second of burning a chip in EPROM?

Final QC:
Quick 10sec power test.

So, it's still made in USA? This does not even encroach "Assembled in USA.

I do not see where this make it made in usa.

What is actually "Made" in USA?

I'm hungry to learn


----------



## M3NTAL

Massive used to be American made, but looking at their website now-a-days, it looks all down hill


----------



## Daishi

vjgli said:


> Core Assembly:
> Basically, PCB is completely stuffed, soldered and electrical qc in where?
> 
> Final Assembly:
> Then ARC is merely slapping some grease and screw to heatsink which is probably extruded, machined, polished, painted and silk-screened where?
> 
> CPU Programming:
> Uhh, 5 second of burning a chip in EPROM?
> 
> Final QC:
> Quick 10sec power test.
> 
> So, it's still made in USA? This does not even encroach "Assembled in USA.
> 
> I do not see where this make it made in usa.
> 
> What is actually "Made" in USA?
> 
> I'm hungry to learn


That's the point. You don't have to actually build everything or even most of the stuff in the US to count as "made in the USA".


----------



## quality_sound

vjgli said:


> Core Assembly:
> Basically, PCB is completely stuffed, soldered and electrical qc in where?
> 
> Final Assembly:
> Then ARC is merely slapping some grease and screw to heatsink which is probably extruded, machined, polished, painted and silk-screened where?
> 
> CPU Programming:
> Uhh, 5 second of burning a chip in EPROM?
> 
> Final QC:
> Quick 10sec power test.
> 
> So, it's still made in USA? This does not even encroach "Assembled in USA.
> 
> I do not see where this make it made in usa.
> 
> What is actually "Made" in USA?
> 
> I'm hungry to learn


No one's saying they're made in the USA. I was just clarifying what is done in Modesto. 

To me "Made in the U.S.A." means 100% of the stuffing, assembly and QC is done in the U.S.A. I don't care where the parts come from.


----------



## Daishi

Considering the boards are prebuilt overseas that blows your whole 100% idea out the window.


----------



## maoht

question is:

where to buy ABYSS????


----------



## maoht

anjing said:


> Last time I check, Abyss(Korean company) used to supply the internal boards and heatsink for Tru.
> Most people in USA doesn't know about this, but a lot of Car audio hobbyist from Asia(Especially S'pore, Malaysia and Indonesia) knows about this fact.
> 
> Here is what they(One of their distributor) said about TRU Amp;
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> _Abyss were the manufacturer for TRU amplifier until 2005... for certain reason, the contact is terminated by Abyss and TRU moves to another company to work on their amplifier...
> 
> The former model of TRU amplifier such as T1, T2, T03, C7, C7T and A Class as well as the active crossovers are most likely 95% the same as Abyss CT series, MFA Series, TB Series and A Class... the major differences I noticed is only the cable used in TRU is Kimber while Abyss using BRAX... a minor components such as resistors or maybe capacitors were modified from Abyss...
> 
> As distributor of Abyss in anywhere in the world will struggle against TRU who claims to be the origin... so, I had a discussion with the Abyss International to make changes on the product lines... hopefully starting 2008, we can have a complete different model than before except for the Abyss A Class which is one of our masterpiece...
> 
> CT14750 & CT12500 = TRU T1 --> WILL NO LONGER AVAILABLE (Model change to CT2.300 & CT4.400 with higher output power and better speciication)
> CT24400 & CT32500 = TRU T03 --> WILL NO LONGER AVAILABLE (New Model still in progress)
> MFA7.4 & MFA7.2 = C7.2 & C7.4 --> We have upgrade the components as well as the power output
> TB2150 & TB4100 = C7.2T & C7.4T --> Hasn't got any news
> CT2000 = Hammer Series J Fairchiled --> NO LONGER AVAILABLE (New Model is Power 1.5K)
> Abyss A Class = TRU A Class --> OUR BENCHMARK_
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> From What I heard, abyss terminated their contract with TRU because TRU actually use "Abyss's design" to be manufactured again in China,
> 
> Personally, I have listened both Abyss and Tru Amp (The Copper Class A series), I prefer Abyss amp. And ++++ It's a lot cheaper !
> 
> Sorry TRU user, Truth hurts.
> Just my 2 Cent.
> 
> Links:
> COPPER LINE:
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!
> 
> TO-3 Line:
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!
> 
> HUMMER:
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!
> 
> My Dream amp:
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!
> and also this:
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!



where to buy ABYSS??????


----------



## WRX/Z28

BeatsDownLow said:


> none of these are us made anymore and I dont think xtant is around anymore


Uhm, MTX definately makes their higher line amps here (EX. TE15001d).


----------



## WRX/Z28

maoht said:


> where to buy ABYSS??????


The Abyss DVD, 2002, Full Frame: items on eBay.com


----------



## JAX

maoht said:


> where to buy ABYSS??????


they have some nice stuff....that nobody can buy....


----------



## TREETOP

WRX/Z28 said:


> The Abyss DVD, 2002, Full Frame: items on eBay.com


I *sea* what you did there.


----------



## WRX/Z28

TREETOP said:


> I *sea* what you did there.


Whaaat? I was trying to help the guy out! He's looking for Abyss!  :laugh:


----------



## Big Pootie

I dont know if MMats is still producing amps in Florida or not, but the newer amps look kinda cheap. They remind me of the newer HiFonics amps. I hate that too, because I love all of my MMats amps!

Is Hafler still producing any amps?


----------



## WRX/Z28

Big Pootie said:


> I dont know if MMats is still producing amps in Florida or not, but the newer amps look kinda cheap. They remind me of the newer HiFonics amps. I hate that too, because I love all of my MMats amps!
> 
> Is Hafler still producing any amps?


IIRC Hafler was absorbed by Rockford Fosgate...

They used to be around the corner from me. Not anymore though...


----------



## man114

New to the forum, and actually came across this place looking for some more info on the new Zed Leviathan. Zed is still made in the USA, good customer service too. I emailed them when I learned of their new amps and asked if they'd still service amps they made (in my case the Planet Audio HVT-7150 and HVT-752), and they will. Doubt your Chinese company will be doing that for you, I don't even remember how long about I bought those amps but it has been a while, on top of that they still work fine.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

anjing said:


> Last time I check, Abyss(Korean company) used to supply the internal boards and heatsink for Tru.
> Most people in USA doesn't know about this, but a lot of Car audio hobbyist from Asia(Especially S'pore, Malaysia and Indonesia) knows about this fact.
> 
> Here is what they(One of their distributor) said about TRU Amp;
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> _Abyss were the manufacturer for TRU amplifier until 2005... for certain reason, the contact is terminated by Abyss and TRU moves to another company to work on their amplifier...
> 
> The former model of TRU amplifier such as T1, T2, T03, C7, C7T and A Class as well as the active crossovers are most likely 95% the same as Abyss CT series, MFA Series, TB Series and A Class... the major differences I noticed is only the cable used in TRU is Kimber while Abyss using BRAX... a minor components such as resistors or maybe capacitors were modified from Abyss...
> 
> As distributor of Abyss in anywhere in the world will struggle against TRU who claims to be the origin... so, I had a discussion with the Abyss International to make changes on the product lines... hopefully starting 2008, we can have a complete different model than before except for the Abyss A Class which is one of our masterpiece...
> 
> CT14750 & CT12500 = TRU T1 --> WILL NO LONGER AVAILABLE (Model change to CT2.300 & CT4.400 with higher output power and better speciication)
> CT24400 & CT32500 = TRU T03 --> WILL NO LONGER AVAILABLE (New Model still in progress)
> MFA7.4 & MFA7.2 = C7.2 & C7.4 --> We have upgrade the components as well as the power output
> TB2150 & TB4100 = C7.2T & C7.4T --> Hasn't got any news
> CT2000 = Hammer Series J Fairchiled --> NO LONGER AVAILABLE (New Model is Power 1.5K)
> Abyss A Class = TRU A Class --> OUR BENCHMARK_
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> From What I heard, abyss terminated their contract with TRU because TRU actually use "Abyss's design" to be manufactured again in China,
> 
> Personally, I have listened both Abyss and Tru Amp (The Copper Class A series), I prefer Abyss amp. And ++++ It's a lot cheaper !
> 
> Sorry TRU user, Truth hurts.
> Just my 2 Cent.
> 
> Links:
> COPPER LINE:
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!
> 
> TO-3 Line:
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!
> 
> HUMMER:
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!
> 
> My Dream amp:
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!
> and also this:
> WELCOME ABYSS INTERNATIONAL!!


You fly off with words like truth and facts, so then Please, really please as in I urge you - provide proof. Otherwise your 'truths' are hearsay and your 'facts' are thoughts.

Also while your at it, you are aware that Abyss is not an actual manufacturer, right ?


----------



## snaimpally

After checking out some of the amps on the Abyss website, I am interested - where I can buy an Abyss amplifier (no not the excellent James Cameron film - if you are going to view the movie, watch the extended Special Edition)?


----------



## Mooble

6spdcoupe said:


> You fly off with words like truth and facts, so then Please, really please as in I urge you - provide proof. Otherwise your 'truths' are hearsay and your 'facts' are thoughts.
> 
> Also while your at it, you are aware that Abyss is not an actual manufacturer, right ?


Even more to the point...Um, hello, why has Abyss not updated "their" copper amps?

To the Abyss supporters, you do realize that Tru discontinued those models 2 generations ago, right? Yes, that's right, there has already been a second generation Tru Copper series and the third generation is going to be out soon.

So please, "Abyss user", tell me the truth about your amps. Why have they not been updated whereas Tru is continually updating their products? Has Abyss even changed their website pictures once in 7 years?!?!

There's the truth for you!


----------



## f#1man

snaimpally said:


> After checking out some of the amps on the Abyss website, I am interested - where I can buy an Abyss amplifier (no not the excellent James Cameron film - if you are going to view the movie, watch the extended Special Edition)?


Tristan aka tristan20 on the board has connects to get Abyss gear. He also has/had an all-tube 4ch MONSTER amp for sale. There stuff is not cheap fyi.


----------



## Mooble

Oh now this is really too much!

Dear Abyss user,

You call your 4 channel copper amp an MFA-7 4CH. That is clearly stated on your website.

Please to tell me why then your own website uses a picture of it labeled as a C-7.4???

Did they forget to photoshop that one? :blush:










Ruh roh Raggy!

Why doesn't Abyss have one of these? Maybe they should update their product line.


----------



## WRX/Z28

snaimpally said:


> After checking out some of the amps on the Abyss website, I am interested - where I can buy an Abyss amplifier (no not the excellent James Cameron film - if you are going to view the movie, watch the extended Special Edition)?


You can get them here: TRU Technology Except these are newer versions. 



Mooble said:


> Oh now this is really too much!
> 
> Dear Abyss user,
> 
> You call your 4 channel copper amp an MFA-7 4CH. That is clearly stated on your website.
> 
> Please to tell me why then your own website uses a picture of it labeled as a C-7.4???
> 
> Did they forget to photoshop that one? :blush:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ruh roh Raggy!
> 
> Why doesn't Abyss have one of these? Maybe they should update their product line.



No no no... Tru bit off of Abyss silly!  (this was sarcasm for those who couldn't tell)

It's amazing the conclusions that some people draw without really knowing. 

Having talked to John Yi many times (and probably annoyed him with my indecision), I can tell you that they really do build their amps in Cali.


----------



## whatzzap

mfa is abyss old model when they still partnership with tru therefore there some similarity in their products. Both abyss and tru have their own version of c7(MFA), Hammer(ct2000), to3(CT-32500A). Eversince both companies split, abyss come out with the new line called mini aa and also ct series(wood design). They also discontinue their version of hammer and come out with a new line called power1.5k. While tru come out with the new billet series and the new copper series which is to me one of the sexiest amp ever.

And who said you cant get abyss in america, ask socal peeps if they ever seen any abyss set up in iasca . 

For Tru lover you have to understand that abyss is very famous in asia and a lot of ppl won competition using their products, and for abyss lover you guys have to understand that ini USA, Europe and some part of asia, tru amps is regards as a really good amp and a lot of competitor using it too. So no need to bash each other by saying one product is better than the other.

Personally i used both tru and abyss. To me abyss amp is a really good amp for midrange and tweeter, but not for midbass. Tru amps feels more dynamics, while abyss amp seems to be to slow for midbass duty. Tru also really good to run midrange n tweet especially copper series. Abyss amps also tend to run pretty warm after half hour. Dont even think to touch the amp after 1 hour running it.

Oh well thats just my 2 cents so dont bash me for what i dont know or something that you dont know. cheers


----------



## takashi

I've heard some Tru amps and they are worth every penny.


----------



## kilokhan

I love these threads. James Cameron... LMAO


----------



## GSlider

BeatsDownLow said:


> none of these are us made anymore and I dont think xtant is around anymore



Xtant is, but they are building some interesting products now. Component speakers made out of wood?

xtant ...vivid mobile audio


----------



## quality_sound

I gotta say, those Xtant amps and components are pretty. Not sure what the point of the leather subs is though. Could they not find anything heavier??


----------



## 6spdcoupe

For the Abyss debate, how bout this ... I will jump on a plane this weekend, fly out to LaCrescenta and look for myself. While there, I will jump around to machine and silkscreening shops as well. THEN, perhaps we could have some belief ? Proof ? Sure, I can take pics too !


----------



## WRX/Z28

6spdcoupe said:


> For the Abyss debate, how bout this ... I will jump on a plane this weekend, fly out to LaCrescenta and look for myself. While there, I will jump around to machine and silkscreening shops as well. THEN, perhaps we could have some belief ? Proof ? Sure, I can take pics too !



Gooooooooooo Don!!!

While your there, tell John I need a big sub amp, bigger than 600rms that the b2200 makes. Tell him we need a super billet mono amp, or bridgeable 2ch.


----------



## 6spdcoupe

WRX/Z28 said:


> Gooooooooooo Don!!!
> 
> While your there, tell John I need a big sub amp, bigger than 600rms that the b2200 makes. Tell him we need a super billet mono amp, or bridgeable 2ch.


Will do !

Have you tried the 2200 though ? You can get a 'few things done' to work a bit better for ya, ya know.


----------



## WRX/Z28

6spdcoupe said:


> Will do !
> 
> Have you tried the 2200 though ? You can get a 'few things done' to work a bit better for ya, ya know.


This is true... I've been talking to him about this for a while, along with upgrading the B4100 and B475 I have. $ is tight though, unless some people buy some more of my other USA built amps. 

I'd like to get to around 1200rms +/- and have it match my billets, if not i'll just use my Hammer H1.


----------



## Hispls

quality_sound said:


> I gotta say, those Xtant amps and components are pretty. Not sure what the point of the leather subs is though. Could they not find anything heavier??


Wood Cone Speakers

Hmmmm.....seems like marketing hokem but they do look kind of sexy.


----------



## putergod

That wood cone thing is retarded.... Paper is wood... Many cones are made of paper.

US Amps AX line are still made in USA.
I, personally, use/own old school SoundStream and US Amps, that I know for a fact are 100% handcrafted in the USA.


----------



## sam3535

putergod said:


> That wood cone thing is retarded.... Paper is wood... Many cones are made of paper.


Genius: your post is sig worthy.

http://www.sonusfaber.com/eng/home.html
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1176
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8592


----------



## Bumpinlex

Has anyone heard good or bad about the new Fosgate T1000-4 amplifier ?? Also are they still made in the USA, as the old style was but wasnt sure about this new model ??


----------



## Oliver

> Nov 13, 2009 ... Other than they are left over not used tweeters. These were bought at auction *when our local rf plant closed*. Made by: Rockford Fosgate ...
> cgi.ebay.com/Tweeters--Home-Audio--Rockford-Fosgate-FA-line-Tweeter_W0QQitemZ290369708410QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20091113?...


hmmmm


----------



## Hispls

Not quite an amp, but this PG line driver I got the other day from Sonicelectronics is marked "made in America" on the top:










Haven't tested it yet but now I have high hopes. Honestly I'm shocked that this is made in the states.


----------



## JAX

Hispls said:


> Not quite an amp, but this PG line driver I got the other day from Sonicelectronics is marked "made in America" on the top:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't tested it yet but now I have high hopes. Honestly I'm shocked that this is made in the states.



just the cover is made in USA....



just kidding....I dont remember.....hell I dont recall if the Tantrums were but I guess they were....I dont know...its been a while...


----------



## Oliver

The qualifiers have dropped very low now

It can say whatever it wants to , the question still remains where is it *actually manufactured*.

When the guys rode John Yi about installing Kimber Kable on the amp being enough to say made in the U.S.A. it was very enlightening

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/off-topic/69685-product-list-made-usa-stuffs.html


----------



## Mooble

putergod said:


> That wood cone thing is retarded.... Paper is wood... Many cones are made of paper.


Well, not exactly. Pulp is uniform whereas wood has rings. I'm not sure of the density of treated paper, but thump a sheet of MDF (giant slab of paper) and compare that to a board. They sound nothing alike.


----------



## Hispls

JAX said:


> just the cover is made in USA....
> 
> 
> 
> just kidding....I dont remember.....hell I dont recall if the Tantrums were but I guess they were....I dont know...its been a while...


I'm not even going to promise on the amps or other Tantrum line, but this is marked as such....and really NOTHING is marked made in USA anymore so I think we're beyond the point where manufacturers feel the need to lie about it.


----------



## Bumpinlex

Surprised nobody has any insight on the new Fosgate T1000-4, now really wondering just how good this unit is, being no one has rushed right out and bought one....hmmm. Maybe I will just go with the new Kraco system from K-mart, ha ha. Piece


----------



## 6spdcoupe

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/69724-truth-about-tru.html


----------



## simplicityinsound

this thread is um...lets say entertaining 

guys, you are all missing the REALLY important question!!!











is John Yi....




































MADE IN THE U.S.A???!?!?! :surprised::laugh::worried:


j/k


----------



## emperorjj1

Bumpinlex said:


> Has anyone heard good or bad about the new Fosgate T1000-4 amplifier ?? Also are they still made in the USA, as the old style was but wasnt sure about this new model ??


no rf no longer makes anything in the usa. 02 was the last midrange made in the US, in 04 they moved the punch subs overseas, then the amps in 08 not 100% sure when the power woofers were moved overseas

And US amps is not mad in the us either. any series


----------



## Bumpinlex

Wow now that is surprising, just a couple of years ago I had a rf power T15004 and it was made in USA, and at that time I remember the big talk was as long as you bought the POWER series amplifiers that they were still made in AZ. I guess the day of buying an american made amplifier is about over....which is very sad. I cant imagine sound off competitions being the same, as I use to compete and was sponsored by 'Linear Power' in the early 90's. I guess if you lived in china, sound off's would be pretty cool though.....its like, "hey my brother in law helped build your amplifier, oh really, yea he works there part time when he isnt serving dim sum". And you wonder why the economy is so "effed" up. Us americans cant made **** anymore I guess!!!!!


----------



## Hispls

Bumpinlex said:


> And you wonder why the economy is so "effed" up. Us americans cant made **** anymore I guess!!!!!



One of my hot-buttons too. We've been sold down the river for the last 30-40 years. Drive around some of our older cities and they're empty shells of factories and decline. It's really depressing.


----------



## emperorjj1

Bumpinlex said:


> Wow now that is surprising, just a couple of years ago I had a rf power T15004 and it was made in USA, and at that time I remember the big talk was as long as you bought the POWER series amplifiers that they were still made in AZ. I guess the day of buying an american made amplifier is about over....which is very sad. I cant imagine sound off competitions being the same, as I use to compete and was sponsored by 'Linear Power' in the early 90's. I guess if you lived in china, sound off's would be pretty cool though.....its like, "hey my brother in law helped build your amplifier, oh really, yea he works there part time when he isnt serving dim sum". And you wonder why the economy is so "effed" up. Us americans cant made **** anymore I guess!!!!!


Yup back then it was all the amps. I actually went to the az plant in 07 when the minis amps just came out and there was rumor the new amps were no longer USA made i actually held a T400-2 i believe right off the line. sadly the made in Malaysia sticker showed up mid 08


----------



## bruther

Made in the USA doesn't necessarily mean quality.


----------



## Hispls

bruther said:


> Made in the USA doesn't necessarily mean quality.


How about a list of POS amps made in the USA?:laugh:


----------



## WRX/Z28

Hispls said:


> How about a list of POS amps made in the USA?:laugh:


Well, there was.... no, no.... uhm, but then there was... no... not that one either. ****, can't think of any. lol


----------



## wadejg

To dredge up an old but pertinent thread,

The list as I have it:
Zed Audio
Zapco CK
Arc SE
McIntosh
Lunar
Tru Technologies 
Mmats


Are Zuki US made?

Regards,
Justin


----------



## basher8621

Ultra


----------



## Hispls

wadejg said:


> To dredge up an old but pertinent thread,
> 
> The list as I have it:
> Zed Audio
> Zapco CK
> Arc SE
> McIntosh
> Lunar
> Tru Technologies
> Mmats
> 
> 
> Are Zuki US made?
> 
> Regards,
> Justin


AFAIK McIntosh was bought out and I doubt they make their amps in the USA anymore (they def don't make their head units here).

The high end RF supposedly is and Mmats is for sure.

I'm pretty sure Zuki is made overseas.


----------



## kyheng

From my point of view, place that make the amp is not much a concern. What I concern more is the quality of the amp. You may have an amp that still made in US with poor quality because of no QC.


----------



## chefhow

kyheng said:


> From my point of view, place that make the amp is not much a concern. What I concern more is the quality of the amp. You may have an amp that still made in US with poor quality because of no QC.


X2!!!


----------



## kyheng

Korea makes some good quality amps(JL Audio for example)......


----------



## Hispls

kyheng said:


> From my point of view, place that make the amp is not much a concern. What I concern more is the quality of the amp. You may have an amp that still made in US with poor quality because of no QC.


This was discussed in this thread. I've seen good equipment made all over the place, but I'll say it again, name 3 Piece of Sh!t amps made in the USA?

Don't forget some people just like to buy American when possible to support OUR economy and working class.


----------



## ChrisB

wadejg said:


> To dredge up an old but pertinent thread,
> 
> The list as I have it:
> Zed Audio
> Zapco CK
> Arc SE
> McIntosh
> Lunar
> Tru Technologies
> Mmats
> 
> 
> Are Zuki US made?
> 
> Regards,
> Justin


The new Zed amplifiers are *NOT* made in the USA!


----------



## Hispls

ChrisB said:


> The new Zed amplifiers are *NOT* made in the USA!


Funny go to his website and the first thing you see is:

"we are prood to introduce a new line of amplifiers all made in the USA"

I believe he buys parts from all over the world, but they are certainly made here. (which is probably the case with almost anything these days)


----------



## ChrisB

Hispls said:


> Funny go to his website and the first thing you see is:
> 
> "we are prood to introduce a new line of amplifiers all made in the USA"
> 
> I believe he buys parts from all over the world, but they are certainly made here. (which is probably the case with almost anything these days)


IIRC, the final assembly is performed here but the boards are done by high speed machinery in Korea. So unless you count Zed's techs slapping a foreign manufactured circuit board into a heat sink as "Made in the USA" they are NOT 100% manufactured here!

EDIT: If you can decipher what Stephen said himself, I don't see how he counts his product as "Made in the USA":


STEPHENM said:


> A little info for you. FR4 PCB material is now entirely sourced form either China, Taiwan or Korea. The cost to make this in the USA is prohibitive.
> 
> All the surface mount resistors, capacitors, diodes, transistors, ICs are sourced in Asia. Why? Nobody in the USA makes these parts for commercial applications.
> 
> The power MOSFETs we use are from International Rectifier and Fairchild. None of them are fabricated in the USA even though these are USA companies.
> 
> All the inductors (coils) and transformers use cores from Mag-Inc (Pennsylvania) and Micrometals (Costa Mesa CA).
> 
> Potentiometers are from Tocos, a Japanese company.
> 
> RCA sockets are sourced in China.
> 
> Power and speaker connectors are sourced in either China or Korea.
> 
> So with this said, ALL amplifier manufacturers source the vast majority of their parts from Asia. Why? Price Price Price. I have ZERO problems with these parts, they are as good as any available.
> 
> For your edification I have a financial interest in a company in Korea which does lots of work with me and source parts which I require and specify.


----------



## kyheng

Hispls said:


> This was discussed in this thread. I've seen good equipment made all over the place, but I'll say it again, name 3 Piece of Sh!t amps made in the USA?
> 
> Don't forget some people just like to buy American when possible to support OUR economy and working class.


Well, most of the replies here are repeating, for 8 pages, we are keep on talking about same thing. And I guess such statement I state it before. Same like your question, it is still repeating question, the number might had changed, but question never.

Just like Intel and AMD, do they make the chips in USA? I only see these 2 factories in Malaysia. And both of them are reputable of making high performance CPUs.


----------



## putergod

ChrisB said:


> IIRC, the final assembly is performed here but the boards are done by high speed machinery in Korea. So unless you count Zed's techs slapping a foreign manufactured circuit board into a heat sink as "Made in the USA" they are NOT 100% manufactured here!
> 
> EDIT: If you can decipher what Stephen said himself, I don't see how he counts his product as "Made in the USA":


In my personal opinion, the most important part is final assembly. The worst thing about junk chinese amps is the fact that resistors blow off boards, or amps short and fry due to poor mass assembly.


----------



## tanakasan

wadejg said:


> Are Zuki US made?


AFAIK they are made in Las Vegas, NV.

Robert

image courtesy of soundbuggy.com review


----------



## wadejg

Hispls said:


> AFAIK McIntosh was bought out and I doubt they make their amps in the USA anymore (they def don't make their head units here).
> 
> The high end RF supposedly is and Mmats is for sure.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Zuki is made overseas.


I believe all Rockford has moved overseas.

McIntosh is still all made in New York state.

Have yet to hear confirmation on Zuki.

Regards,
Justin


----------



## emperorjj1

correct on the fosgate. nothing made in the usa anymore


----------



## MACS

Hispls said:


> AFAIK McIntosh was bought out and I doubt they make their amps in the USA anymore (they def don't make their head units here).
> 
> The high end RF supposedly is and Mmats is for sure.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Zuki is made overseas.


McIntosh never made their head units here....always from Japan. The amps are still coming out of Binghampton.


----------



## sn95chico

it all comes down to quality control and warranty


----------



## quality_sound

tanakasan said:


> AFAIK they are made in Las Vegas, NV.


Patrick is in LV but the amps are NOT made there.


----------



## ChrisB

putergod said:


> In my personal opinion, the most important part is final assembly. The worst thing about junk chinese amps is the fact that resistors blow off boards, or amps short and fry due to poor mass assembly.


So you would rather have something that looks like **THIS** from Zed as part of his "final" assembly process?


----------



## Hispls

ChrisB said:


> So you would rather have something that looks like **THIS** from Zed as part of his "final" assembly process?


I'm pretty sure you read that thread and know that wasn't done in manufacturing but after the fact as a fix for a problem some people have. From a lot of testing with mine I'm pretty convinced the "pop and protect" thing is dependent on head unit as I've been through quite a few HUs this year and it was happening occasionally with one, rarely with another, and never with two others. 

Also I predict that that guy will be the equivelant of the jamoke that filed the rip off report on the minilith that "caught on fire" for this line of amps.


Seems that at this point nobody could build an amp with entirely American made parts since many things aren't even made here anymore. The fact that people do ANY part of the production here sais something since I'm sure Stephen could have a Korean buildhouse put them together, and save a hundred large in costs in a year. Ditto for any other manufacturer that still has the desire to do things in house.


----------



## Hispls

wadejg said:


> I believe all Rockford has moved overseas.
> 
> McIntosh is still all made in New York state.
> 
> Have yet to hear confirmation on Zuki.
> 
> Regards,
> Justin



Interesting. I definitely saw on a LOOOOONG zuki thread here the owner say they were made overseas.


----------



## ChrisB

Hispls said:


> I'm pretty sure you read that thread and know that wasn't done in manufacturing but after the fact as a fix for a problem some people have. From a lot of testing with mine I'm pretty convinced the "pop and protect" thing is dependent on head unit as I've been through quite a few HUs this year and it was happening occasionally with one, rarely with another, and never with two others.


I also recall someone saying their tweeters were fried as a result of that "turn-on" pop, so I'd hardly say it was a Head unit related issue. In fact, Matnz himself admitted that he had received a faulty batch of chips in another thread that I can't be bothered to look up at the moment.



Hispls said:


> Also I predict that that guy will be the equivelant of the jamoke that filed the rip off report on the minilith that "caught on fire" for this line of amps.


If that is the same person I am thinking about from Lafayette, Louisiana, he was a master installer at one of the local custom shops. IIRC, he decided to vent his frustrations on the web after being given the shaft by Zed.




Hispls said:


> Seems that at this point nobody could build an amp with entirely American made parts since many things aren't even made here anymore. The fact that people do ANY part of the production here sais something since I'm sure Stephen could have a Korean buildhouse put them together, and save a hundred large in costs in a year. Ditto for any other manufacturer that still has the desire to do things in house.


I still don't see how you can count a board that was manufactured overseas with final assembly into a heat sink in the USA as "Made in the USA." 

I guess I should contract with Zenon to build a whole bunch of boards for me, then I will assemble them in my house and call them "Made in the USA" too. I'll mark them up accordingly since they are "made" here.


----------



## sam3535

Hispls said:


> Interesting. I definitely saw on a LOOOOONG zuki thread here the owner say they were made overseas.


That's the original eleets; there are now multiple amp lines, versions of those lines, classes, etc. From what I've seen some are USA designed, some USA assembled, and maybe some are USA "built/made".


----------



## PUREAUDIO

both my amps are built in the U.S.A.


----------



## tanakasan

quality_sound said:


> Patrick is in LV but the amps are NOT made there.


Ah! Good to know!

All I know is that the amps *seem* to be a quality item. Everything about them is solid and well thought out.

Wherever they were made, they seem to be a solid piece of hardware!

So, not that it matters, but where were they made?

Robert


----------



## wadejg

PUREAUDIO said:


> both my amps are built in the U.S.A.


Not trying to be snide but what who built your amps that were made in the USA? I couldn't figure it out from your sig.

Regards,
Justin Wade


----------



## ChrisB

wadejg said:


> Not trying to be snide but what who built your amps that were made in the USA? I couldn't figure it out from your sig.
> 
> Regards,
> Justin Wade


The same company who built the amplifier in my avatar.


----------



## audiogodz1

Made in the USA, designed and built by Zed, and modified on final production in 1994  No use arguing in "the way things are and alway have been". It's improvement and I'll take it.


----------



## MarkZ

Hispls said:


> Don't forget some people just like to buy American when possible to support OUR economy and working class.


If you spend more money for an amplifier just because it's manufactured in the US, then that's LESS money you have to spend on other things, like local restaurants, home repairs, and other things. This is why buying things in the US can be BAD for the economy, if you're paying more for the same item. 

Good economies are about improving your quality of life at the lowest possible cost (which means using the excess money to improve your quality of life even further, or to invest it -- which is also generally good for the economy). This is why, contrary to popular belief, discount chains like Wal-Mart are good for the economy. More product at lower prices.

"Buy american" isn't always the best idea. The better strategy is "bang for your buck."


----------



## PUREAUDIO

wadejg said:


> who built your amps that were made in the USA?


i built my amps  they are Lunar Amplifiers.


----------



## audiogodz1

MarkZ said:


> "Buy american" isn't always the best idea. The better strategy is "bang for your buck."


Ridiculous, that is the thinking that put us on the path to destruction in the first place.


----------



## MarkZ

audiogodz1 said:


> Ridiculous, that is the thinking that put us on the path to destruction in the first place.


What kind of thinking? This is established stuff. Nationalism is generally bad for the economy. We've known this for nearly 100 years. Protectorates, en masse, are bad for the economy. We've known this for nearly 200 years.

Let me put it this way. Suppose you have $1. You go out and buy 3 fruit loops, 2 candy canes, and a lollipop for $1. If, instead, your dollar only bought you 3 american made fruit loops because they were more expensive, then that means you'd be "poorer" by exactly 2 candy canes and a lollipop. Suppose you said, "I don't care, I don't really want candy canes and lollipops anyway." You'd still be "poorer", because the money you could have saved buying the cheaper fruit loops could have been used for other purchases elsewhere, or investment.

There's nothing wrong with importing. It makes both parties richer, which is ultimately good for everyone. Especially when you consider the political ramifications.

On a related note, this was one of my favorite things written during the auto bailouts, when people were (mistakenly) thinking that importing cars was bad for the american economy and that bailouts were a good idea:

The Iowa Car Crop



excerpt said:


> David’s observation is that there are two technologies for producing automobiles in America. One is to manufacture them in Detroit, and the other is to grow them in Iowa. Everybody knows about the first technology; let me tell you about the second. First, you plant seeds, which are the raw material from which automobiles are constructed. You wait a few months until wheat appears. Then you harvest the wheat, load it onto ships, and said the ships eastward into the Pacific Ocean. After a few months, the ships reappear with Toyotas on them.


----------



## Dillyyo

MarkZ said:


> What kind of thinking? This is established stuff. Nationalism is generally bad for the economy. We've known this for nearly 100 years. Protectorates, en masse, are bad for the economy. We've known this for nearly 200 years.
> 
> Let me put it this way. Suppose you have $1. You go out and buy 3 fruit loops, 2 candy canes, and a lollipop for $1. If, instead, your dollar only bought you 3 american made fruit loops because they were more expensive, then that means you'd be "poorer" by exactly 2 candy canes and a lollipop. Suppose you said, "I don't care, I don't really want candy canes and lollipops anyway." You'd still be "poorer", because the money you could have saved buying the cheaper fruit loops could have been used for other purchases elsewhere, or investment.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with importing. It makes both parties richer, which is ultimately good for everyone. Especially when you consider the political ramifications.
> 
> On a related note, this was one of my favorite things written during the auto bailouts, when people were (mistakenly) thinking that importing cars was bad for the american economy and that bailouts were a good idea:
> 
> The Iowa Car Crop


Especially when one thinks ad takes into account the whole premise of capitalism and companies. Who gives a fvck if I buy Ford, Chevy or any other "American" product when ANYONE can own their stocks. 

Perfect example is Ford and Honda. Honda probably employees more American workers and has a large percentage of their stuff assembled and made here yet the head brass are essentially a Japanese majority. Yet I can own stock in Honda and profit from their smart business and well made product. Ford does nothing but close plants, lay off workers, make an inferior product and has something like 70% of their parts and assembly come from other countries. Yet we are suppose to support them because Henry Ford was an American?! Last i checked Chinese billionaires can own stocks in Ford or any other American company.

Fact is screw the support your home company crap since that's a facade and go on who is giving me the best quality for the money as you stated.


----------



## quality_sound

tanakasan said:


> Ah! Good to know!
> 
> All I know is that the amps *seem* to be a quality item. Everything about them is solid and well thought out.
> 
> Wherever they were made, they seem to be a solid piece of hardware!
> 
> So, not that it matters, but where were they made?
> 
> Robert


I would have to double check with Zach or Patrick but I want to say it's in Korea.


----------



## wadejg

Well, sadly, unless I can find out otherwise, this is the final list:

The list as I have it:
Zed Audio
Zapco CK
Arc SE
McIntosh
Lunar
Tru Technologies
Mmats

It is funny, because many high quality home audio amps are still made in the USA, of course, they aren't cheap.

Regards,
Justin


----------



## ChrisB

I still disagree with the Zed amplifiers being made in the USA. If that is truly the case, could I purchase an off the shelf Sundown amplifier, disassemble it, then reassemble it and call it "Made in the USA"? After all, the final assembly would have been performed on my test bench, just as Zed's amplifiers containing PCBs machine assembled in Korea.


----------



## WRX/Z28

ChrisB said:


> I still disagree with the Zed amplifiers being made in the USA. If that is truly the case, could I purchase an off the shelf Sundown amplifier, disassemble it, then reassemble it and call it "Made in the USA"? After all, the final assembly would have been performed on my test bench, just as Zed's amplifiers containing PCBs machine assembled in Korea.


So wait, my Camaro isn't made in the usa because the tires were made in Japan? 

I know you have a hard on for Zed almost as bad as LP, but seriously, you're off base here. 

They were designed here. They are assembled here. The parts content is going to contain some oversea's parts. With the current availability of parts, it can't be avoided. 

They're about as american of an amp as you can get right now. Quit it with the bashing. It's massively annoying to see that as your #1 agenda lately...


----------



## tanakasan

quality_sound said:


> I would have to double check with Zach or Patrick but I want to say it's in Korea.


Thanks for the info!

OK, Korea...hey, they used to laugh at Nikon cameras, Sony TVs and Toyotas too!

Robert


----------



## ChrisB

WRX/Z28 said:


> So wait, my Camaro isn't made in the usa because the tires were made in Japan?
> 
> I know you have a hard on for Zed almost as bad as LP, but seriously, you're off base here.
> 
> They were designed here. They are assembled here. The parts content is going to contain some oversea's parts. With the current availability of parts, it can't be avoided.
> 
> They're about as american of an amp as you can get right now. Quit it with the bashing. It's massively annoying to see that as your #1 agenda lately...


It was my understanding that the whole circuit board was manufactured in Korea and slapped into a heat sink in California. If that is the case, it is NOT American made, PERIOD! Maybe Rockford Fosgate should go back to calling their amplifiers made in the USA because they are designed here too? Zed calling his latest amplifiers made in the USA is a flat out lie and misleading to the consumer. 

But, I'll drop the issue and do my talking another way, by taking my business and my money elsewhere!




Luke352 said:


> And as I understand it as I'm sure I read it in one of Steve's posts somewhere the actual board population was done in the US.


Well, if that is the case, then I stand corrected. That was not how I interpreted his jibberish when he spoke of the manufacturing company in Korea that he had a vested financial interest in.

Regardless, consider the issue dropped, and my money spent elsewhere!

EDIT: I will really drop the issue if someone posts a photo of the circuit board as it is received from Asia.

Also, How did my post show up before Luke's?


----------



## Luke352

ChrisB said:


> I still disagree with the Zed amplifiers being made in the USA. If that is truly the case, could I purchase an off the shelf Sundown amplifier, disassemble it, then reassemble it and call it "Made in the USA"? After all, the final assembly would have been performed on my test bench, just as Zed's amplifiers containing PCBs machine assembled in Korea.


And as I understand it as I'm sure I read it in one of Steve's posts somewhere the actual board population was done in the US. So the bare board and a good percentage of the parts may come from asia somewhere but all the population (or a large portion of it) and assembly was done stateside. I'm not going to go looking for the post since I have better things to do with my time then to find some obscure post or thread, i'll leave that to you since you seem to get a hard on over doing that.


----------



## WRX/Z28

ChrisB said:


> It was my understanding that the whole circuit board was manufactured in Korea and slapped into a heat sink in California. If that is the case, it is NOT American made, PERIOD! Maybe Rockford Fosgate should go back to calling their amplifiers made in the USA because they are designed here too? Zed calling his latest amplifiers made in the USA is a flat out lie and misleading to the consumer.
> 
> But, I'll drop the issue and do my talking another way, by taking my business and my money elsewhere!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if that is the case, then I stand corrected. That was not how I interpreted his jibberish when he spoke of the manufacturing company in Korea that he had a vested financial interest in.
> 
> Regardless, consider the issue dropped, and my money spent elsewhere!


Good for you! Today it's Lunar amplifiers for you (which are guaranteed to source parts from Asia as well). Tomorrow lunar will be big P.O.S.'s too, all it will take is one person badmouthing them, and you'll jump ship. 

I hate to bash yah, cause you don't seem like that bad of a guy, but you were adamantly bashing Zed as though it were fact that they're not US made (and as if you had proof of that fact), and then admitting that you didn't even know they stuffed their own boards. 

Ease up on the agenda there bud... we don't need to hear about LP and Zed being junk in every thread you're involved in....


----------



## ChrisB

WRX/Z28 said:


> Good for you! Today it's Lunar amplifiers for you (which are guaranteed to source parts from Asia as well). Tomorrow lunar will be big P.O.S.'s too, all it will take is one person badmouthing them, and you'll jump ship.
> 
> I hate to bash yah, cause you don't seem like that bad of a guy, but you were adamantly bashing Zed as though it were fact that they're not US made (and as if you had proof of that fact), and then admitting that you didn't even know they stuffed their own boards.
> 
> Ease up on the agenda there bud... we don't need to hear about LP and Zed being junk in every thread you're involved in....


Believe it or not, I don't ask for much. All I ask for is to be treated like a human being versus someone's cash cow trying to sell me services I do not need.

Another company that treated me well was Zuki, even though I have yet to do business with them. Patrick was kind, courteous, and professional via email and on the phone. 

Unfortunately I can't say the same for Zed or Linear Power. For your information, I have corresponded with Mantz and Ray too and they were both negative experiences. Well, Ray started out as pleasant, then it all went to hell whereas Mantz left a bad taste in my mouth from word one.


----------



## WRX/Z28

ChrisB said:


> EDIT: I will really drop the issue if someone posts a photo of the circuit board as it is received from Asia.
> 
> Also, How did my post show up before Luke's?


So wait, you'll drop it if you see proof, but otherwise you'll keep propogating ******** with no proof on your end?


----------



## WRX/Z28

ChrisB said:


> Believe it or not, I don't ask for much. All I ask for is to be treated like a human being versus someone's cash cow trying to sell me services I do not need.
> 
> Another company that treated me well was Zuki, even though I have yet to do business with them. Patrick was kind, courteous, and professional via email and on the phone.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't say the same for Zed or Linear Power. For your information, I have corresponded with Mantz and Ray too and they were both negative experiences. Well, Ray started out as pleasant, then it all went to hell whereas Mantz left a bad taste in my mouth from word one.


I own a couple LP amps. I've yet to have ray beating down my door to sell me any "upgrades". 

I sent a customers Autotek amp (non-Zed made) to CIA engineering where they kept it for 2+ years. You read that right. I finally got it back unrepaired. 

I sent it to Zed, he repaired it cleanly, and had it back to me inside of 3 weeks time (he's on the left coast, i'm on the right). He was easy to work with, and very helpful. The repair looked clean, and functioned perfectly. 

It's really funny that you pick two guys who design and repair amps in house to pick on. I don't get it, or what their products have done to injure you...


----------



## ChrisB

WRX/Z28 said:


> I own a couple LP amps. I've yet to have ray beating down my door to sell me any "upgrades".


Send one in for repair and tell me if the worthless upgrades get pushed or not.



WRX/Z28 said:


> I sent a customers Autotek amp (non-Zed made) to CIA engineering where they kept it for 2+ years. You read that right. I finally got it back unrepaired.
> 
> I sent it to Zed, he repaired it cleanly, and had it back to me inside of 3 weeks time (he's on the left coast, i'm on the right). He was easy to work with, and very helpful. The repair looked clean, and functioned perfectly.


I'll only use Chris at dB-r or Perry Babin to repair something of mine, assuming it isn't something simple that I can't fix myself. Perry is just over an hour away. 



WRX/Z28 said:


> It's really funny that you pick two guys who design and repair amps in house to pick on. I don't get it, or what their products have done to injure you...


If I sent you an amplifier for repair and asked you to replace all the electrolytic capacitors while you had the board out, citing I would pay for EVERYTHING, would you jump my ****? One of those two guys did that to me. Imagine how pissed off I was two or three months later when one of the electrolytic capacitors that he DID NOT replace because HE knew better bit the dust.

Yes, I know I could have replaced the caps myself, but that is not the issue. I figured while the amplifier was in for repair, it could have used a fresh set of capacitors. I didn't realize I would get the "Look buddy I don't tell you how to do your job so I would appreciate you not telling me how to do my job" spill from the individual I was PAYING to repair my amplifier. How's that for customer service?


----------



## WRX/Z28

ChrisB said:


> Send one in for repair and tell me if the worthless upgrades get pushed or not.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll only use Chris at dB-r or Perry Babin to repair something of mine, assuming it isn't something simple that I can't fix myself. Perry is just over an hour away.
> 
> 
> 
> If I sent you an amplifier for repair and asked you to replace all the electrolytic capacitors while you had the board out, citing I would pay for EVERYTHING, would you jump my ****? One of those two guys did that to me. Imagine how pissed off I was two or three months later when one of the electrolytic capacitors that he DID NOT replace because HE knew better bit the dust.
> 
> Yes, I know I could have replaced the caps myself, but that is not the issue. I figured while the amplifier was in for repair, it could have used a fresh set of capacitors. I didn't realize I would get the "Look buddy I don't tell you how to do your job so I would appreciate you not telling me how to do my job" spill from the individual I was PAYING to repair my amplifier. How's that for customer service?


Hey, I won't argue something I don't know anything about. I'm not sure what happened to your amp, but I can't imagine a reason why anyone would not replace components you requested replaced unless they were not available, or it was really deemed un-necessary. After the component failed, did you send it in for the repair shop to make it right?


----------



## ChrisB

WRX/Z28 said:


> Hey, I won't argue something I don't know anything about. I'm not sure what happened to your amp, but I can't imagine a reason why anyone would not replace components you requested replaced unless they were not available, or it was really deemed un-necessary. After the component failed, did you send it in for the repair shop to make it right?


Nope, ties were severed as a result of that awesome customer service. How do you think I discovered Chris from dB-r and Perry Babin?


----------



## WRX/Z28

ChrisB said:


> Nope, ties were severed as a result of that awesome customer service. How do you think I discovered Chris from dB-r and Perry Babin?


I think I might have told you about DB-R... Never dealt with Perry Babin...

Kinda funny not giving someone the opportunity to make it right, but whatever. Not my amps... i'll continue to support companies that make excellent products, and are willing to speak to you one on one even as the company owner... that's rare.

Not to excuse it, but think of it this way. How many "Forum idiots" do you think these guys have to talk to on a daily basis?


----------



## ChrisB

WRX/Z28 said:


> I think I might have told you about DB-R... Never dealt with Perry Babin...
> 
> Kinda funny not giving someone the opportunity to make it right, but whatever. Not my amps... i'll continue to support companies that make excellent products, and are willing to speak to you one on one even as the company owner... that's rare.


Oh the opportunity was given to make it right and I was given the 60 or 90 day warranty on the repair job spill. I had a meltdown as a result of it, especially when I felt it should have NEVER happened had the service I initially requested been performed in the first place.



WRX/Z28 said:


> Not to excuse it, but think of it this way. How many "Forum idiots" do you think these guys have to talk to on a daily basis?


Thanks to the internet, everyone is an expert these days.:laugh:


----------



## drbizerk

word!


----------



## The Baron Groog

skylar112 said:


> What have you seen that concludes TRU amps aren't built in the USA? There's even some British guy who flew to California to build his own line driver, I suppose that that was fake too.
> 
> And I still don't care where its coming from, as long as at the end that I get the product with the performance I want out of it. Just being that the Steels and Billets are made in the USA, that's an added bonus. I've had plenty of talks about this, I understand the politics of TRU/Abyss. Trust me with John Fairchild(RIP) at that time, who's a genius there's no need for them to have Abyss design amps for them. It was the other way around, there's no way anyone would let that kind of talent go to waste. Abyss and TRU got together as a bunch of guys trying to save production cost, using a TRU/Fairchild design with agreements for Abyss to distribute only in Asia. It was a collaboration made to save production cost. That's it. If you want to believe that those Abyss amps sounded better than the TRUs at that time, then you are delusional. They were the same amps. You just discredit yourself. Today TRU and Abyss have severed their ties, TRU is its own company with zero affiliation to Abyss. TRU remains to be an American amp, made with enough American parts to make it made in USA. I gain nothing by telling any of this.


Similar happened in th UK with Genesis and DLS. Genesis made the early DLS amps and they were badged as either/or/both. It was basically so the Genesis products could be distributed by DLS dealers in Scandanavia and DLS by UK Genesis dealers. Not sure why things stopped-i believe it's because DLS actually started making their own-which looked too similar to the Genesis:

http://www.dls.se/econtent/files/29/genesisser1.pdf


----------



## The Baron Groog

Hispls said:


> This was discussed in this thread. I've seen good equipment made all over the place, but I'll say it again, name 3 Piece of Sh!t amps made in the USA?
> 
> Don't forget some people just like to buy American when possible to support OUR economy and working class.


That's probably true to a point: PRICE

The same is the case here in the UK. Unfortunately since the internet came about MOST consumers buy on price/specs. They search the net, believe the specs and then find the retailer with the cheapest price>

Retailers fighting over prices and consumers demanding cheaper products leads to removal of features/quality in order to remain competetive>

Porducts being made somewhere cheaper>

Asia as wages are significantly lower.

Our higher standard of living also does not help-people who would have been happy to work in a factory now feel it's beneath them and if they have to they're not as keen as the Asian worker who'll do it for a fraction of the price and CARE about what he/she is doing. A largly "middle class" country will always suffer a lack of workforce for factory/menial jobs-hence America's reliance on migrant Mexican workers and the UK's reliance on Asian (Indian Sub-Continent) and Polish/EU migrant workers.

Because of the above it's only cost effective to build high end products in the USA and UK-where people are paying for the prestige of the product rather than just the component/assembly cost.


----------



## twosevennine

wadejg said:


> Well, sadly, unless I can find out otherwise, this is the final list:
> 
> The list as I have it:
> Zed Audio
> Zapco CK
> Arc SE
> McIntosh
> Lunar
> Tru Technologies
> Mmats
> 
> It is funny, because many high quality home audio amps are still made in the USA, of course, they aren't cheap.
> 
> Regards,
> Justin


I would like to "potentially" add 2 amplifiers to this list...
CDT SQA amps 
All the Ultra Subs amps


----------



## PimpMySound

The Ultra Sub amps are obviously Nikola engineered amps, and meanwhile you all should know, that Robert Zeff exclusively works for one single Asian OEM...
I doubt, that they have opened a new manufacturing facility in the US to manufacture Ultra Subs amps...


----------



## djm3311

ZAPCO is still made in the USA


----------



## 6spdcoupe

djm3311 said:


> ZAPCO is still made in the USA


Negative. Hasn't been for some time now.


----------



## chefhow

djm3311 said:


> ZAPCO is still made in the USA



Actually iirc only the Ck series of amps are built in the US, the rest are built overseas.


----------



## JAX

chefhow said:


> Actually iirc only the Ck series of amps are built in the US, the rest are built overseas.


notice they no longer say "made in USA" on them...


----------



## ChrisB

I thought I read somewhere that Zapco sold off their machinery therefore they couldn't build anything in the USA themselves.


----------



## chefhow

JAX said:


> notice they no longer say "made in USA" on them...


Its been so long since Ive seen a new one, I wasnt sure.


----------



## JAX

I remember owning some black and gold ones that said "made in USA" then suddenly the next series didnt which then told me someting had changed.

not that it matters. its still a zapco I guess.

so where are they now made? china?


----------



## bigdaddy'76

OldSkool_08 said:


> Reference Hi-Fi?
> 
> I am not sure but a member was selling an amplifier from this company and they stated they were made in Washington State.
> 
> Link: Reference Hi-Fi! Your Factory Authorized Dealer


Reference Hi-Fi is an in house brand, for a local car stereo shop (Super Stereo Warehouse). They're are built over seas, probability China. The Snohomish, WA address (which is within 20 minutes of my house) , on their web page, is the owner's home address. At first, I thought it was a brand associated with Carver or Sun Fire, seeing as those two companies are out of Snohomish, WA, as well. However, with a little investigating and research, I found out the real deal behind Reference Hi-Fi and it's nowhere near American made!!!


----------



## sidny

how about nakamichi pa-8001, pa-2002 and pa-2004?
as far as i know these amps was made by zed? correct me if i'm wrong?

do any of you guys have anything good/bad to say about these amps?
 i currantly sit on 2 pa-2004 that i'm going to use with my dynaudio esotec speakers with one amp bridged for midd's and the other one is getting 2 channels for tweeters and "rear" bridged for the sub, so i'm curious how they work in bridged mode

sorry for off-topic


----------



## cleansoundz

Are the better built amplifiers these days made in Korea?


----------



## birmy

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum.../108505-new-zapco-dps-help-zapco-improve.html

I wonder if this one will be made in the USA


----------



## PimpMySound

Of course, not!


----------



## xtremevette

What about Zuki? Doesn't Patrick make these by hand out of Nevada?

Could of sworn someone opened up an amp to find a nice note inside saying "built on xx/xx/2012 for "john doe". Sorry I don't remember the date or persons name. lol


----------



## WRX/Z28

LOL!!!


----------



## JAX

These days if made here in USA it would either be expensive or crap. 

There is no reason to do it unless you think your zed and deserve $800 per amp 


What is definition of made in USA ?


----------



## quality_sound

xtremevette said:


> What about Zuki? Doesn't Patrick make these by hand out of Nevada?
> 
> Could of sworn someone opened up an amp to find a nice note inside saying "built on xx/xx/2012 for "john doe". Sorry I don't remember the date or persons name. lol


Yep. I don't know if the board stuffing is done here or not, but everything else he does in Vegas.


----------



## WRX/Z28

JAX said:


> These days if made here in USA it would either be expensive or crap.
> 
> There is no reason to do it unless you think your zed and deserve $800 per amp
> 
> 
> What is definition of made in USA ?



Expense is the main drawback, but people are so accustomed to electronics costing less than it costs to produce the item that we're unfortunately very biased about how much we're willing to pay for an item. Once China changes, guess how much some of the disposable goods of today will cost. 

Personally, I think $800 for a 190x6 amp made in the U.S. is a steal...


----------



## putergod

WRX/Z28 said:


> Personally, I think $800 for a 190x6 amp made in the U.S. is a steal...


I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

I will not buy an amp not made in USA unless we ever get to a point that 100% of the amps in existance are made overseas. That will be both heart breaking and very unfortunate.

However, companies like Mmats, Krell, McIntosh. and until recently, Zapco and US Amps, have proven that you can stay profitable and keep amplifier manufacturing in the US. Sure, you might need a "mainstream" (read "cheap") line that is made overseas, but you can keep your higher range stuff made here, charge what they are worth, and those of us who want quality gear, and are willing to pay for it, can get what we want while the cheapskates can continue to get cheap chinese junk.
It's a "win-win" and everyone is happy.


----------



## quality_sound

If it was still profitable to make amps domestically, Zapco, US Amp, ALL of the old Big 3 and many, many others would still be doing it. People won't pay $600 for a 30x2 anymore. This isn't the 90s and people consider their gear throwaway now and spend accordingly.


----------



## ChrisB

JAX said:


> These days if made here in USA it would either be expensive or crap.
> 
> There is no reason to do it unless you think your zed and deserve $800 per amp
> 
> 
> What is definition of made in USA ?


It is clearly defined here: Complying with the Made in USA Standard | BCP Business Center*

What substantiation is required for a Made in USA claim?*

When a manufacturer or marketer makes an unqualified claim that a product is Made in USA, it should have — and rely on — a "reasonable basis" to support the claim at the time it is made. This means a manufacturer or marketer needs competent and reliable evidence to back up the claim that its product is *"all or virtually all"* made in the U.S.


Care to guess who is claiming "Made in USA" when the product is merely undergoing final assembly in the USA?


----------



## putergod

quality_sound said:


> If it was still profitable to make amps domestically, Zapco, US Amp, ALL of the old Big 3 and many, many others would still be doing it. People won't pay $600 for a 30x2 anymore. This isn't the 90s and people consider their gear throwaway now and spend accordingly.


First: if it wasn't profitable to make amplifiers in the US, NO ONE would do it... yet it is still being done - for profit, mind you.
Second: 30x2 was NEVER "$600", at least not in the 25 years that I have been into car audio. $1-$2 per watt has always been the "standard", and with the advent of technology, it's even gone down a little bit. I paid roughly $650 for my PPI A600, right at 1k for my SS Class A 10.0 (sure, this one was "rated" at 25x2, however, everyone with a brain knows this amp was never considered as anything less than 1kw), ~600 for my US Amps 4300x, ~800 for my US Amps 1000x, and just recently less than 2k combined for my Mmats SQ4160 and M3000 (over 4kw combined), and ~1200 for my Mmats HiFi-6150D. ALL of the above was $1 per watt or less (except for the PPI which was just a few cents higher) and ALL were made in the USA (some very recently).

Edit: I would also like to add that just because YOU consider your Chinese garbage "throw away" (which is an accurate assessment), please do not group the entire human race into this category! Some of us PEOPLE actually prefer quality, and, as you so eloquently put it, will spend accordingly.


----------



## MarkZ

And others are not so bigoted to think that the chinese can't or won't make a competently-constructed amp. People who think amplifiers are jewelry "spend accordingly".


----------



## putergod

MarkZ said:


> And others are not so bigoted to think that the chinese can't or won't make a competently-constructed amp. People who think amplifiers are jewelry "spend accordingly".


History speaks for itself. I haven't seen one yet...
Of all the chinese made amps I have ever "aquired", only one still functions, and that is because it got pulled quickly, after it's match went up and smoke, to be replaced be a quality US made product that hasn't had an issue.


And... you get what you pay for *.* (period)


----------



## MarkZ

putergod said:


> History speaks for itself. I haven't seen one yet...
> Of all the chinese made amps I have ever "aquired", only one still functions, and that is because it got pulled quickly, after it's match went up and smoke, to be replaced be a quality US made product that hasn't had an issue.


You might want to reevaluate what you're doing wrong then, because other people are using "cheap chinese crap" and have been for a long time. My sub amp, for example, has been going for about ten years.




> And... you get what you pay for *.* (period)


Is that so? You must be new to the forum...


----------



## JAX

putergod said:


> History speaks for itself. I haven't seen one yet...
> Of all the chinese made amps I have ever "aquired", only one still functions, and that is because it got pulled quickly, after it's match went up and smoke, to be replaced be a quality US made product that hasn't had an issue.
> 
> 
> And... you get what you pay for *.* (period)



I have had lots of amps made overseas. None of them failed on me. Only amp ever failed on me was from my own mistake. 


The ppi phantoms seem to be pretty popular. Might not be considered quality to some but they work and are small. 

The Zeff clones are all made overseas and they are all solid amps. The clarions are great amps. 

Basically most of all the amps made today can be improved no doubt. 

According to my source who is in this business, all boils down to cheap crap parts that are not designed to last that long. 85 degree caps instead of 105 for example. 

Even the new PG elite amps are made with some high end parts and supposedly the best amps they have ever made. But my tech looked and the board and told me he knows where it could be better. Those elite amps are expensive compared to most and yet can be improved. 

IMO the reason all the old stuff is so popular is because they were built with quality parts that last and 20yrs later they can still work. 

If chinese made amps were made with better parts then they coułd be every bit as good as anything made here ever was. But cost would be more 

How much more who knows. Do we know of any foreign made amp with high end parts to compare ? 

I think the "get what you pay for " us a clever marketing gimmick but really not true 


If I buy a old school amp for cheap then I get more than I paid for . 

But just cause you spend bunch of money doesn't automatically mean your getting what you think you are. 


My tech could absolutely destroy some myths about certain amps or companies . 

I would be suprised if Zuki is made totally here in states . I know the engineering parts is done here . Final assembly maybe , entire thing I don't know.

They sound good and function as they do because of engineering and parts

Not because some magic "made in USA fairy dust"


----------



## quality_sound

putergod said:


> First: if it wasn't profitable to make amplifiers in the US, NO ONE would do it... yet it is still being done - for profit, mind you.
> Second: 30x2 was NEVER "$600", at least not in the 25 years that I have been into car audio. $1-$2 per watt has always been the "standard", and with the advent of technology, it's even gone down a little bit. I paid roughly $650 for my PPI A600, right at 1k for my SS Class A 10.0 (sure, this one was "rated" at 25x2, however, everyone with a brain knows this amp was never considered as anything less than 1kw), ~600 for my US Amps 4300x, ~800 for my US Amps 1000x, and just recently less than 2k combined for my Mmats SQ4160 and M3000 (over 4kw combined), and ~1200 for my Mmats HiFi-6150D. ALL of the above was $1 per watt or less (except for the PPI which was just a few cents higher) and ALL were made in the USA (some very recently).
> 
> Edit: I would also like to add that just because YOU consider your Chinese garbage "throw away" (which is an accurate assessment), please do not group the entire human race into this category! Some of us PEOPLE actually prefer quality, and, as you so eloquently put it, will spend accordingly.


Go back and look through your CA&E Annual guides. $1-$2 didn't happen until well into the 2000s. $5-$6 Watt was very much the norm in the early and mid-90s. I'm the same age you are so we got into this probably about the same time and I absolutely remember how much my punch40dsm (20 Wattsx2) cost, and it was even more than $6/Watt. $1-$2/Watt would have been $40-$80....


----------



## quality_sound

putergod said:


> Edit: I would also like to add that just because YOU consider your Chinese garbage "throw away" (which is an accurate assessment), please do not group the entire human race into this category! Some of us PEOPLE actually prefer quality, and, as you so eloquently put it, will spend accordingly.


Reread my post and find ANYWHERE where I said MY gear was 1) Chinese or 2) throwaway. I DARE you.


----------



## ChrisB

quality_sound said:


> Go back and look through your CA&E Annual guides. $1-$2 didn't happen until well into the 2000s. $5-$6 Watt was very much the norm in the early and mid-90s. I'm the same age you are so we got into this probably about the same time and I absolutely remember how much my punch40dsm (20 Wattsx2) cost, and it was even more than $6/Watt. $1-$2/Watt would have been $40-$80....


I remember in high school, about 1989 or 1990, one of my friends put a Punch 75 on layaway. I want to say the cost was something like $330 for an amplifier rated to produce 75 watts RMS. According to my calculations that is $4.40 per watt and that was Rockford Fosgate's low end line at the time.


----------



## putergod

MarkZ said:


> You might want to reevaluate what you're doing wrong then, because other people are using "cheap chinese crap" and have been for a long time. My sub amp, for example, has been going for about ten years.


I have reevaluated what I do... I stopped acquiring trash and went back to quality. Haven't had a problem since.



MarkZ said:


> Is that so? You must be new to the forum...


Yup... Apr 2008 was yesterday. Thanks for the warm welcome...
And yes, that IS so... 90% of the time.



quality_sound said:


> Go back and look through your CA&E Annual guides. $1-$2 didn't happen until well into the 2000s. $5-$6 Watt was very much the norm in the early and mid-90s. I'm the same age you are so we got into this probably about the same time and I absolutely remember how much my punch40dsm (20 Wattsx2) cost, and it was even more than $6/Watt. $1-$2/Watt would have been $40-$80....


This is a very wrong statement. My PPI was bought in 1992. My 10.0 was bought in 1994. Both of the aforementioned US Amps were bought in 2000.



ChrisB said:


> I remember in high school, about 1989 or 1990, one of my friends put a Punch 75 on layaway. I want to say the cost was something like $330 for an amplifier rated to produce 75 watts RMS. According to my calculations that is $4.40 per watt and that was Rockford Fosgate's low end line at the time.


The punch 75 was NOT a "75w amp". It was actually about 300w. Therefore, that would be just over $1/watt. If you are actually as old as this post implies, one would venture to guess that you should remember that amps in that day were "underrated" for competition. Hello... the SS 10.0 was RATED at 25x2. As I said previously, no one with a brain ever considered that amp to be a 50w amp. The $1-$2/watt rule was based on ACTUAL capability. Most of those Chinese amps can't even put out there rated power, much less double, or in some cases of the high current models (like the 10.0) 20x their "rated" power like most high quality American made amps have been able to do since the 80's.

Y'all can continue to justify your purchases with drivel all you want. However the following remains true, whether you want to live in denial or not:
1. American quality FAR exceeds Chinese "quality" (or lack thereof).
2. Buying American made goods helps to IMPROVE our economy.
3. Buying Chinese made goods helps improve THEIR economy.
4. You get what you pay for.

I'm not going to waste my time continuing to argue the above. If you want to live in denial to justify your cheapskateness, that is fine. It's your life. If you want to continue buying cheap crap made in a communist country, that is also fine, as it's your money. I, for one, however, will continue to buy quality products that are made in America, by Americans, with pride, as long as the product is available. Even my tennis shoes were made in America and have outlasted every pair of Chinese shoes I've ever owned!


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

And so it begins again.....................................................................................


----------



## quality_sound

JAX said:


> I have had lots of amps made overseas. None of them failed on me. Only amp ever failed on me was from my own mistake.
> 
> 
> The ppi phantoms seem to be pretty popular. Might not be considered quality to some but they work and are small.
> 
> The Zeff clones are all made overseas and they are all solid amps. The clarions are great amps.
> 
> Basically most of all the amps made today can be improved no doubt.
> 
> According to my source who is in this business, all boils down to cheap crap parts that are not designed to last that long. 85 degree caps instead of 105 for example.
> 
> Even the new PG elite amps are made with some high end parts and supposedly the best amps they have ever made. But my tech looked and the board and told me he knows where it could be better. Those elite amps are expensive compared to most and yet can be improved.
> 
> IMO the reason all the old stuff is so popular is because they were built with quality parts that last and 20yrs later they can still work.
> 
> If chinese made amps were made with better parts then they coułd be every bit as good as anything made here ever was. But cost would be more
> 
> How much more who knows. Do we know of any foreign made amp with high end parts to compare ?
> 
> I think the "get what you pay for " us a clever marketing gimmick but really not true
> 
> 
> If I buy a old school amp for cheap then I get more than I paid for .
> 
> But just cause you spend bunch of money doesn't automatically mean your getting what you think you are.
> 
> 
> My tech could absolutely destroy some myths about certain amps or companies .
> 
> I would be suprised if Zuki is made totally here in states . I know the engineering parts is done here . Final assembly maybe , entire thing I don't know.
> 
> They sound good and function as they do because of engineering and parts
> 
> Not because some magic "made in USA fairy dust"


I'll just say this, I've never, EVER had an amp fail. I've owned flea market crap, RF, SS, LP, JL, PPI, Arc, Alpine, and Zuki. Some were made in America and some were not. None ever failed on me. Ever.


----------



## JAX

Boy I need to get my tech to respond. 

Nobody is in denial. 

A Korean amp can be every bit as good as any American amp if the good parts are used. Simple as that. 

If I want to order some amps from Ubuy and I specify they use only the best parts then they would make them like that. 

but most companies want their profit margin to be high as can be and sell as many as they can versus a mistake like a SS Human Reign version 1 or 2 . Badass amp but they couldn't move them even at a loss. It wasn't made in USA either 2nd time but you can't find a bad remark about them. 

I love old school soundstream. Always looking at them. 

I just had a pair of old school PPI . Couldn't run them cause they sucked the life right out of my electrical. 
I installed some Chinese junk JL XD amps and with 7 channels going full blast I have zero electrical issues and sounds great. 

I can even run stereo for few hours car off and not kill battery . 

Do I think they would last for 10yrs. ? No but I will have changed system long before that. If they break my tech can fix them. 

Did I spend a fortune on them ? No. 


PuterGod what amps are you running out of curiosity ?


----------



## putergod

JAX said:


> I have had lots of amps made overseas. None of them failed on me. Only amp ever failed on me was from my own mistake.





quality_sound said:


> I'll just say this, I've never, EVER had an amp fail. I've owned flea market crap, RF, SS, LP, JL, PPI, Arc, Alpine, and Zuki. Some were made in America and some were not. None ever failed on me. Ever.


Consider yourselves lucky.
SS Edge series 4 channel (can't remember the exact model number - I still have it at home somewhere, so I can look it up tonight). This amp was after the Epsilon buy-out (however, I did not know they were bought out at the time of purchase). This amp last 6 months driving my front stage and rear deck speakers in a 2001 GTP. When it failed, I opened it to see the problem and a resistor was dangling from the board. That there is complete CRAP in "build quality".
JL 500/1. This amp was driving a TC built Eclipse 10" at 2ohm. Bought used, so I honestly cannot vouch for it's early life, but within 3 months of owning, it stunk up the whole car when it went up in smoke. The JL 300/4 that was installed beside it was immediately pulled. These two were my final Chinese amps.

Ive had a couple wal-mart cheapies as well, and while they haven't actually "failed", they sounded so horrible with so much noise that they were quickly pulled in favor of something much more costly, and much better quality.

However, I must be honest and say that I have not owned many amps (compared to a lot of people my age). The reason? My american amps continue to work.
Here is a comprehensive list of every amp I can remember owning, and its fate (* means chinese):
*Jenson 4 channel (cant remember model): sounded like caca, pulled for better
*Jenson mono (cant remember model): sounded like caca, pulled for better
Carver M4120: Gave to a friend who needed an amp. Had already upgraded to the PPI and SS
PPI A600: Pulled in pursuit of more power/versatility
SS Class A 10.0: Ran a pair of CV 15's then a pair of SS SPL160's (always at 1ohm mono). Ran this amp from ~1994 till 2004. Was pulled shortly after the "Edge" blew in favor of running "matching amps" (US Amps below).
*SS Edge: Blew 6 mos after purchase
US Amps 4300x: Still have, works great! Pulled in favor of more powerful Mmats
US Amps 1000x: Still have, works great! Pulled in favor of more powerful Mmats
*JL 500/1: Blew up. Ran at 2ohm. Nothing more to say.
*JL 300/4: Pulled when "partner" blew up. Both of these replaced with US Amps AX5600
US Amps AX5600: Still in use in 2004 Saab 9-3
Mmats SQ4160: Still in use in 2006 GTO
Mmats M3000: Still in use in 2006 GTO
Mmats HiFi-6150D: Ready to be installed in 2008 Audi A4 Cabriolet


----------



## quality_sound

putergod said:


> This is a very wrong statement. My PPI was bought in 1992. My 10.0 was bought in 1994. Both of the aforementioned US Amps were bought in 2000.
> 
> 
> The punch 75 was NOT a "75w amp". It was actually about 300w. Therefore, that would be just over $1/watt. If you are actually as old as this post implies, one would venture to guess that you should remember that amps in that day were "underrated" for competition. Hello... the SS 10.0 was RATED at 25x2. As I said previously, no one with a brain ever considered that amp to be a 50w amp. The $1-$2/watt rule was based on ACTUAL capability. Most of those Chinese amps can't even put out there rated power, much less double, or in some cases of the high current models (like the 10.0) 20x their "rated" power like most high quality American made amps have been able to do since the 80's.


Slow down there, killer. You CAN NOT use max ratings as your basis for the argument. I bet you don't think a HU does 50Wx4, do you? If you don't believe that then STOP using max ratings as your basis for comparison. It makes you look silly. 

The punch75 was ABSOLUTELY a 75 Watt amp. Last time I looked, 37.5 + 37.5 was 75. Just like the 10.0 was a 50 Watt amp. They weren't underrated (well they were, just not as much as you think), they were designed to make more power under certain circumstances. However, if you ran them in a normal stereo configuration they were 75 and 50 Watt amps respectively. You could argue that they were a better value because of the extra power into mono and low-impedance loads, but you can't argue what they were.


----------



## MarkZ

putergod said:


> I have reevaluated what I do... I stopped acquiring trash and went back to quality. Haven't had a problem since.
> 
> 
> Yup... Apr 2008 was yesterday. Thanks for the warm welcome...
> And yes, that IS so... 90% of the time.


Totally missed the point...



> 2. Buying American made goods helps to IMPROVE our economy.


There are people who still believe that? :laugh:


----------



## quality_sound

putergod said:


> Consider yourselves lucky.
> SS Edge series 4 channel (can't remember the exact model number - I still have it at home somewhere, so I can look it up tonight). This amp was after the Epsilon buy-out (however, I did not know they were bought out at the time of purchase). This amp last 6 months driving my front stage and rear deck speakers in a 2001 GTP. When it failed, I opened it to see the problem and a resistor was dangling from the board. That there is complete CRAP in "build quality".
> JL 500/1. This amp was driving a TC built Eclipse 10" at 2ohm. Bought used, so I honestly cannot vouch for it's early life, but within 3 months of owning, it stunk up the whole car when it went up in smoke. The JL 300/4 that was installed beside it was immediately pulled. These two were my final Chinese amps.
> 
> Ive had a couple wal-mart cheapies as well, and while they haven't actually "failed", they sounded so horrible with so much noise that they were quickly pulled in favor of something much more costly, and much better quality.
> 
> However, I must be honest and say that I have not owned many amps (compared to a lot of people my age). The reason? My american amps continue to work.
> Here is a comprehensive list of every amp I can remember owning, and its fate (* means chinese):
> *Jenson 4 channel (cant remember model): sounded like caca, pulled for better
> *Jenson mono (cant remember model): sounded like caca, pulled for better
> Carver M4120: Gave to a friend who needed an amp. Had already upgraded to the PPI and SS
> PPI A600: Pulled in pursuit of more power/versatility
> SS Class A 10.0: Ran a pair of CV 15's then a pair of SS SPL160's (always at 1ohm mono). Ran this amp from ~1994 till 2004. Was pulled shortly after the "Edge" blew in favor of running "matching amps" (US Amps below).
> *SS Edge: Blew 6 mos after purchase
> US Amps 4300x: Still have, works great! Pulled in favor of more powerful Mmats
> US Amps 1000x: Still have, works great! Pulled in favor of more powerful Mmats
> *JL 500/1: Blew up. Ran at 2ohm. Nothing more to say.
> *JL 300/4: Pulled when "partner" blew up. Both of these replaced with US Amps AX5600
> US Amps AX5600: Still in use in 2004 Saab 9-3
> Mmats SQ4160: Still in use in 2006 GTO
> Mmats M3000: Still in use in 2006 GTO
> Mmats HiFi-6150D: Ready to be installed in 2008 Audi A4 Cabriolet


You think a JL slash amp is NOT well-made but the 10.0 IS? Well, we can finish this conversation right here as you clearly have NO idea what you're talking about. The 10.0s, while moderately less prone to blowing up than the References, was not, in anyone's book, reliable. They had a run of 4 or 5 years when I HATED selling and installing them because they were so prone to breaking. On the retaillevel you know what amps consistantly had the lowest failure rate of any line I ever sold, Sony. Up until 2000 when I got out of retail, Sony was the most reliable and we also carried RF, SS, Brax, PG, Alpine, and Crossfire. There were some short stints with other brands as well.


----------



## JAX

putergod said:


> Consider yourselves lucky.
> SS Edge series 4 channel (can't remember the exact model number - I still have it at home somewhere, so I can look it up tonight). This amp was after the Epsilon buy-out (however, I did not know they were bought out at the time of purchase). This amp last 6 months driving my front stage and rear deck speakers in a 2001 GTP. When it failed, I opened it to see the problem and a resistor was dangling from the board. That there is complete CRAP in "build quality".
> JL 500/1. This amp was driving a TC built Eclipse 10" at 2ohm. Bought used, so I honestly cannot vouch for it's early life, but within 3 months of owning, it stunk up the whole car when it went up in smoke. The JL 300/4 that was installed beside it was immediately pulled. These two were my final Chinese amps.
> 
> Ive had a couple wal-mart cheapies as well, and while they haven't actually "failed", they sounded so horrible with so much noise that they were quickly pulled in favor of something much more costly, and much better quality.
> 
> However, I must be honest and say that I have not owned many amps (compared to a lot of people my age). The reason? My american amps continue to work.
> Here is a comprehensive list of every amp I can remember owning, and its fate (* means chinese):
> *Jenson 4 channel (cant remember model): sounded like caca, pulled for better
> *Jenson mono (cant remember model): sounded like caca, pulled for better
> Carver M4120: Gave to a friend who needed an amp. Had already upgraded to the PPI and SS
> PPI A600: Pulled in pursuit of more power/versatility
> SS Class A 10.0: Ran a pair of CV 15's then a pair of SS SPL160's (always at 1ohm mono). Ran this amp from ~1994 till 2004. Was pulled shortly after the "Edge" blew in favor of running "matching amps" (US Amps below).
> *SS Edge: Blew 6 mos after purchase
> US Amps 4300x: Still have, works great! Pulled in favor of more powerful Mmats
> US Amps 1000x: Still have, works great! Pulled in favor of more powerful Mmats
> *JL 500/1: Blew up. Ran at 2ohm. Nothing more to say.
> *JL 300/4: Pulled when "partner" blew up. Both of these replaced with US Amps AX5600
> US Amps AX5600: Still in use in 2004 Saab 9-3
> Mmats SQ4160: Still in use in 2006 GTO
> Mmats M3000: Still in use in 2006 GTO
> Mmats HiFi-6150D: Ready to be installed in 2008 Audi A4 Cabriolet




SS edge amp ? That's what ? The low level from them at the time ? It couldn't possibly cost much and I don't think much of it. I wouldn't expect it too last 


JL Audio 500/1 . Interesting. I notice tons of these in eBay broke. I asked my tech and he said cause despite JL tainting them 1ohm stable they are not and they fail cause they can't handle the load. Other than that they are good solid amps. Lots of controls and Tiffany RCA jacks ( always love that)

The slash amps are pretty solid. I've had them b4. Would use again. 

The design is fairly good my engineer says 


US Amps ( love them b4 sell out , period ) 

Mmats - good stuff. 


So after some Jensen , a cheap ss and 1 JL audio you decided all foreign amps are junk

The JL was the only good one out of that bunch


----------



## putergod

quality_sound said:


> Slow down there, killer. You CAN NOT use max ratings as your basis for the argument. I bet you don't think a HU does 50Wx4, do you? If you don't believe that then STOP using max ratings as your basis for comparison. It makes you look silly.
> 
> The punch75 was ABSOLUTELY a 75 Watt amp. Last time I looked, 37.5 + 37.5 was 75. Just like the 10.0 was a 50 Watt amp. They weren't underrated (well they were, just not as much as you think), they were designed to make more power under certain circumstances. However, if you ran them in a normal stereo configuration they were 75 and 50 Watt amps respectively. You could argue that they were a better value because of the extra power into mono and low-impedance loads, but you can't argue what they were.


I don't use "max" or "peak" output as a basis for any comparisons (that's what cheap chinese manufacturers use). However, my statement stands very true. The Punch 75's birthsheets routinely showed 170-180 wpc RMS (root mean square, or continuous, not max or peak, output). It was VERY well known that the old school RF amps were VERY underrated.



MarkZ said:


> There are people who still believe that? :laugh:


Simple economics. So, yes, there are some people who still believe facts. Obviously not that many anymore, but still some.



quality_sound said:


> ... JL slash amp is NOT well-made but the 10.0 IS?


Correct.



JAX said:


> SS edge amp ? That's what ? The low level from them at the time ? It couldn't possibly cost much and I don't think much of it. I wouldn't expect it too last


The Van Gogh wasn't out at the time of purchase, or I didn't know about it. I was a SS fan based on my past experience with them. SS didn't make "low level amps" previously, so I had no inclination that they did at that time either. They were, in my mind, the absolute "best". It wasn't until the Edge blew that I did research and found out they has just sold out to a company that mass produces crap.



JAX said:


> JL Audio 500/1 . Interesting. I notice tons of these in eBay broke. I asked my tech and he said cause despite JL tainting them 1ohm stable they are not and they fail cause they can't handle the load. Other than that they are good solid amps. Lots of controls and Tiffany RCA jacks ( always love that)


I ran it at 2ohm (dual 4ohm sub).


Also, I never said that ALL amps were $1-$2 per watt... I said that was the "norm". Some (very few) amplifiers were, and still are, much higher (McIntosh for example), but they were the exception, not the norm.


----------



## JAX

cajunner said:


> My US Amps USA150 cost me 349, and I got a deal on it, back in '96-'97.
> 
> It was listed at 460, retail and they had just got them in, their display wasn't fully up and I said "plexy bottom?" and went with it.
> 
> I think that today it's not so much the "throwaway" mindset that dominates, (I still have my amp, on a shelf) but when problems arise, you can't find a tech today that works on an honest rate like in the old days.
> 
> I remember bringing stuff in, and if the guy had to spend 15 minutes of solid soldering, and 20 minutes of testing before and after, he charged for parts and 30 bucks in labor for what took him 35 minutes to do. If he spent 5 minutes on a cap and a transistor, he charged me a flat 10 bucks that included 1.85 worth of parts.
> 
> Today, you don't get that. You get somebody who says "75 bucks to look at it, and I'll apply 50 bucks towards the repair if you want it fixed"
> 
> so it's a higher buy-in to fix up something today.
> 
> I can buy brand new amplifiers for 75 bucks, I mean it's not that I want to throw anything away, you can't find people who walk out of a repair shop at the end of the day with 150 bucks into 6.5 hours of solder work, and say that's a good day.
> 
> 
> They want to make 150 bucks an hour, and not enough business competition to force prices downward makes it harder today to get a decent rate on a repair than ever before.




Your using the wrong tech. 

My local guy replace entire power supply on my Lanzar zed made opti for $50. He has fixed other stuff for me. Less than $20


My super tech had never charged me more than $75 to fix and hid turn around time is less than a day. He is cheaper than anyone in country because he is good


----------



## quality_sound

Well that an a lot of newer amps are very, very difficult to repair by anymore.


----------



## quality_sound

putergod said:


> I don't use "max" or "peak" output as a basis for any comparisons (that's what cheap chinese manufacturers use). However, my statement stands very true. The Punch 75's birthsheets routinely showed 170-180 wpc RMS (root mean square, or continuous, not max or peak, output). It was VERY well known that the old school RF amps were VERY underrated.


I said they were underrated. They were not, however, THAT underrated. Even if they were, it doesn't change the fact that you PAID for a 75 Watt amp. You based your buying decision on the RATED power. It was advertised as a 75 Watt amp. It's VALUE is based on it being a 75 Watt amp. Anything else is extra. 



> The Van Gogh wasn't out at the time of purchase, or I didn't know about it. I was a SS fan based on my past experience with them. SS didn't make "low level amps" previously, so I had no inclination that they did at that time either. They were, in my mind, the absolute "best". It wasn't until the Edge blew that I did research and found out they has just sold out to a company that mass produces crap.


What? You don't remember the Granites? The USAs? 



> Also, I never said that ALL amps were $1-$2 per watt... I said that was the "norm". Some (very few) amplifiers were, and still are, much higher (McIntosh for example), but they were the exception, not the norm.


No, anything of quality was considerably higher than that. Even Jensen, which BTW WAS made in America, was more than $1-$2 Watt.


----------



## MarkZ

putergod said:


> Simple economics. So, yes, there are some people who still believe facts. Obviously not that many anymore, but still some.


"Simple" is maybe not the word I had in mind.

Economists almost universally reject the idea, for the same reason that people reject the idea that it's financially beneficial for a household to sew its own clothes, cultivate and process its own wheat, build its own televisions, (and install its own car audio ). Financial "isolationism" may have some political benefits sometimes, but economically it's a really bad idea, and has never actually worked on any broad scale.

So the million-dollar question here is: why do you have such a horrible track record with amps, when others who have used the same amps (the JL or Jensen ones that you listed, for example) haven't had nearly the same level of problems that you have? Is it usage-related, install/design-related, or do you just have bad luck?


----------



## putergod

It's been my experience that good manufacturers will fix things even out of warranty.
In my early days of car audio, I blew a pair of CV XL15's. They were almost one year out of warranty. They blew from excessive clipping. CV reconed them for free, and even paid the shipping back to me (I had to ship them to them at my cost though).
SS replaced a bad dual diode for free in the 10.0, when the amp was 6 years old.

Any company that believes in their product, and cares about the customer, will work with you - even outside of warranty period.


----------



## quality_sound

True. Through hole is WAY easier.


----------



## putergod

quality_sound said:


> I said they were underrated. They were not, however, THAT underrated. Even if they were, it doesn't change the fact that you PAID for a 75 Watt amp. You based your buying decision on the RATED power. It was advertised as a 75 Watt amp. It's VALUE is based on it being a 75 Watt amp. Anything else is extra.


I guess Rockford Fosgate lied to its customers when they included an inflated birth sheet that was a fallacy.

Given your logic above, the SS 10.0 should have not been sold for more than $100 (at $2 a watt) since it was only a "50 watt amp".
The 10.0 was not truly a 50watt amp and the Punch 75 was not truly a 75 watt amp.



quality_sound said:


> What? You don't remember the Granites? The USAs?


Sure do. From the 80's. Even those were VERY good amps.



quality_sound said:


> No, anything of quality was considerably higher than that. Even Jensen, which BTW WAS made in America, was more than $1-$2 Watt.


Prove both of these statements.



MarkZ said:


> "Simple" is maybe not the word I had in mind.
> 
> Economists almost universally reject the idea, for the same reason that people reject the idea that it's financially beneficial for a household to sew its own clothes, cultivate and process its own wheat, build its own televisions, (and install its own car audio ). Financial "isolationism" may have some political benefits sometimes, but economically it's a really bad idea, and has never actually worked on any broad scale.


This is a load of crap. Remember our best times - most of the stuff in a common household was American. Our economy was booming. Unemployment was low. It's very simple. Buy American and Americans work.



MarkZ said:


> So the million-dollar question here is: why do you have such a horrible track record with amps, when others who have used the same amps (the JL or Jensen ones that you listed, for example) haven't had nearly the same level of problems that you have? Is it usage-related, install/design-related, or do you just have bad luck?


Quality related. Give me my million bucks!


----------



## MarkZ

putergod said:


> This is a load of crap. Remember our best times - most of the stuff in a common household was American. Our economy was booming. Employment was low. It's very simple. Buy American and Americans work.


How very Keynesian of you.




> Quality related. Give me my million bucks!


That logic doesn't fly. Other people don't have the same problems you have with "quality". So what are you doing differently that requires special "quality"? Maybe we can help you figure it out if you tell us what actually failed. "Blew up" doesn't actually tell us anything...


----------



## JAX

putergod said:


> It's been my experience that good manufacturers will fix things even out of warranty.
> In my early days of car audio, I blew a pair of CV XL15's. They were almost one year out of warranty. They blew from excessive clipping. CV reconed them for free, and even paid the shipping back to me (I had to ship them to them at my cost though).
> SS replaced a bad dual diode for free in the 10.0, when the amp was 6 years old.
> 
> Any company that believes in their product, and cares about the customer, will work with you - even outside of warranty period.



times they are a changing. 

that same Soundstream you liked back then is now making "chinese crap" 

when I said that JL will not do 1 ohm I was thinking that you were running 2ohm load but doesnt that load change with actual music ? so its possible it killed it due to the fact that it went below 2. 

not saying JL is the best, just that the put out good product in used market. you get a lot when you buy a used JL amp. I wouldnt pay for new one.


----------



## putergod

MarkZ said:


> How very Keynesian of you.


Thank you, 



MarkZ said:


> That logic doesn't fly. Other people don't have the same problems you have with "quality". So what are you doing differently that requires special "quality"? Maybe we can help you figure it out if you tell us what actually failed. "Blew up" doesn't actually tell us anything...


Don't need any help. I solved all my problems by buying American. Haven't had an issue since.

And, btw, I am an Electronics Technician in the US Navy (now, after several years, reservist). I know what I am doing. I also worked for Peavey Electronics as an "inspecter/tester" of amplifiers prior to joining the Navy. I know how to operate an O-Scope and tune my amplifiers using one. I know how to run cable and can read "positive and negative". A trained monkey could "hook up" an amp correctly. I also know how to read owners manuals.


----------



## quality_sound

putergod said:


> I guess Rockford Fosgate lied to its customers when they included an inflated birth sheet that was a fallacy.
> 
> Given your logic above, the SS 10.0 should have not been sold for more than $100 (at $2 a watt) since it was only a "50 watt amp".
> The 10.0 was not truly a 50watt amp and the Punch 75 was not truly a 75 watt amp.


That's YOUR argument, not mine. I'm saying it cost a hell of a lot more than $1-$2/Watt comment you made earlier and are now trying to backpedal from. 




> Sure do. From the 80's. Even those were VERY good amps.


You're a decade off. They both were sold in the NINETIES. The Granites were early 90s and the USAs in the mid 90s. 




> Prove both of these statements.


First part - Sorry, I don't have my receipts from 1992 but you've already glazed over the posts about how much I, and others, paid for our amps back then and it was in the $5-$6/Watt range. Another option, open a CA&E buyer's giude from the 90s. Wait, I feel like I've said this before. Oh yeah...

Second part - Open one up. Do a little research. Google is your friend. 




> This is a load of crap. Remember our best times - most of the stuff in a common household was American. Our economy was booming. Employment was low. It's very simple. Buy American and Americans work.


And then gov't entitlement reached a new high and brought with it personal entitlement where people thought **** was owed to them. Once you start down that path you stop valuing good products because you're not paying for them. You simply want what's free. Manufacturers want to stay in business so they cater and here we are today. It has nothing to do with buying American. It has to do with cheap, lazy Americans.


----------



## putergod

quality_sound said:


> That's YOUR argument, not mine. I'm saying it cost a hell of a lot more than $1-$2/Watt comment you made earlier and are now trying to backpedal from.


I'm not back peddling at all. What I am telling you, that you seem to have a REALLY hard time grasping, is that both the Punch 75, and the Class A 10.0 were MUCH more powerful than their "4ohm stereo rating". When I said $1-$2/watt I did NOT say "$1-$2/watt rated 4ohm stereo power". There is a reason the Punch 75 was $300+, and it's the same reason the 10.0 was $1k+ - that reason is because the power it actually put out was worth the price tag (at $1-$2/watt)!




quality_sound said:


> You're a decade off. They both were sold in the NINETIES. The Granites were early 90s and the USAs in the mid 90s.


You're right. I was thinking of the D series. But that doesn't change the fact those were still great, American made, amplifiers.




quality_sound said:


> First part - Sorry, I don't have my receipts from 1992 but you've already glazed over the posts about how much I, and others, paid for our amps back then and it was in the $5-$6/Watt range. Another option, open a CA&E buyer's giude from the 90s. Wait, I feel like I've said this before. Oh yeah...
> 
> Second part - Open one up. Do a little research. Google is your friend.


Not going to retype my first section above - just re-read it in response to this.




quality_sound said:


> And then gov't entitlement reached a new high and brought with it personal entitlement where people thought **** was owed to them. Once you start down that path you stop valuing good products because you're not paying for them. You simply want what's free. Manufacturers want to stay in business so they cater and here we are today. It has nothing to do with buying American. It has to do with cheap, lazy Americans.


Now THIS is something I can agree with. But I still believe in American quality, and supporting the American economy.


----------



## MarkZ

putergod said:


> Thank you,
> 
> 
> Don't need any help. I solved all my problems by buying American. Haven't had an issue since.
> 
> And, btw, I am an Electronics Technician in the US Navy (now, after several years, reservist). I know what I am doing. I also worked for Peavey Electronics as an "inspecter/tester" of amplifiers prior to joining the Navy. I know how to operate an O-Scope and tune my amplifiers using one. I know how to run cable and can read "positive and negative". A trained monkey could "hook up" an amp correctly. I also know how to read owners manuals.


So then you can tell us what went wrong with your amps and why.


----------



## quality_sound

putergod said:


> I'm not back peddling at all. What I am telling you, that you seem to have a REALLY hard time grasping, is that both the Punch 75, and the Class A 10.0 were MUCH more powerful than their "4ohm stereo rating". When I said $1-$2/watt I did NOT say "$1-$2/watt rated 4ohm stereo power". There is a reason the Punch 75 was $300+, and it's the same reason the 10.0 was $1k+ - that reason is because the power it actually put out was worth the price tag (at $1-$2/watt)!



Know, I know EXACTLY how much power they made. That's beside the point. No one bought them, at least at first, because they were underrated. They bought them based on the rated power and the associated price was in the $5-$6 range. Stop typing and THINK for a minute before you reply.


----------



## putergod

MarkZ said:


> So then you can tell us what went wrong with your amps and why.


Yes
Edge: Crappy soldering caused a resistor to fall off. I.E. poor build quality.
JL: Either poor design (not likely), poor build quality (most likely) or poor parts selection (somewhat likely) caused the amp to "burn up".



quality_sound said:


> Know, I know EXACTLY how much power they made. That's beside the point. No one bought them, at least at first, because they were underrated. They bought them based on the rated power and the associated price was in the $5-$6 range. Stop typing and THINK for a minute before you reply.


Unlike you, I cannot venture to assume why one person does "this" or another person does "that" since I am not inside their heads. I DO know what those amps were capable of and what they cost, which combined to meet the standard rule of thumb at the time.
How many times do I have to tell you that "4 Ohm Stereo rated power" has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that "most" good amps were around the cost of about $1-$2 per watt of real world power. The ONLY thing, at the time, that centered around the "4 Ohm Stereo Rated Power" was IASCA, as that was how they did their "power classes" back then, and EXACTLY why all these "cheater amps", as they were commonly called, were made and were so popular.
I just paid $1200 for a 900 watt amp, if you go by "4 Ohm Stereo Rated Power" - which I do not. So, I actually paid $1200 for a 1600 watt amp - and, based on my experience with this company, is almost assuredly very underrated at that figure.


----------



## WRX/Z28

quality_sound said:


> I said they were underrated. They were not, however, THAT underrated. Even if they were, it doesn't change the fact that you PAID for a 75 Watt amp. You based your buying decision on the RATED power. It was advertised as a 75 Watt amp. It's VALUE is based on it being a 75 Watt amp. Anything else is extra.


You do realize that Punch75 made [email protected] right? $330/150watts= $2.20 a watt. 


Any way you slice it, amps sound the same. Amp's do not have the same features, build quality, terminals, size, power ratings, thermal capabilities. 

The reason amps like the Art series are so popular is that they were engineered well, and would take abuse. They ran forever, hence my large collection of them that are around 15-20 years old. They were lacking some features though...

Today's amps are feature packed, and you can find well built amps that unfortunately are not made here anymore. They are typically still designed here, just not made here. Quality is obviously debatable. There is not, and never will be a universally accepted quality meter. We just have to agree to disagree. 

I'm a believer in "Buy american and american's work". Does it mean that i'm 100% certain that it helps the economy? No. Would I be willing to bet that in most instances it does. Yes. The short truth is the majority of our unemployment is in assembly line level jobs. These are the jobs being lost. 

You can argue til you're blue in the face that foreign products are not solely to blame, and maybe you're right, but buying american products never hurt america either.


----------



## SaturnSL1

How come you guys don't try fixing the stuff yourself? Techs are stupid expensive but parts are cheap


----------



## putergod

WRX/Z28 said:


> Any way you slice it, amps sound the same.


This is the only thing you said that I do not, necessarily, agree with.
I've had amps that sounded like utter crap (Jenson) and amps that sounded downright amazingly clean and clear (SoundStream).
In most instances, well designed and assembled amps are not discernable under normal/optimal conditions, but I can't/won't agree with the blanket statement that "all amps sound the same".

I've had this argument on here before, so before it restarts, that "idiot's" "amplifier challenge" involves using processing to MAKE two amps sound the same. If you have to use processing to make two different amps "sound the same", then they obviously do not.


----------



## MarkZ

putergod said:


> Yes
> Edge: Crappy soldering caused a resistor to fall off. I.E. poor build quality.
> JL: Either poor design (not likely), poor build quality (most likely) or poor parts selection (somewhat likely) caused the amp to "burn up".


"Burn up"? ...

What _happened_ to it? That's the question I asked. The truth is that you have no idea what the culprit is if you don't know what happened to it. You can guess about "poor design", "poor build quality", "poor parts selection", etc, as much as you want, but there's no possible way you can know if any of those things are the culprit if you don't actually know what went wrong with it. Your sample size is obviously way too small to be able to make any statements about build quality based strictly on failure rate. Especially since the consensus around here (with a much larger sample size than 1...) is that that line is fairly immune to failure.


----------



## WRX/Z28

putergod said:


> This is the only thing you said that I do not, necessarily, agree with.
> I've had amps that sounded like utter crap (Jenson) and amps that sounded downright amazingly clean and clear (SoundStream).
> In most instances, well designed and assembled amps are not discernable under normal/optimal conditions, but I can't/won't agree with the blanket statement that "all amps sound the same".
> 
> I've had this argument on here before, so before it restarts, that "idiot's" "amplifier challenge" involves using processing to MAKE two amps sound the same. If you have to use processing to make two different amps "sound the same", then they obviously do not.


I used to have the same oppinion you do. I had to prove it to myself. If there is a difference in sound, it is so minute, that the smallest change in processing (IE time alignment, eq, phase, input gain) can be much greater than any perceived difference in amp SQ. 

I've not been able to tell a difference between my ESX amps compared to my Art series, comared to clarion, compared to anything else, when all else was equal. That does not mean I believe in cheap amps, I prefer amps with a soft rollback on output power rather than a hard protection circuit, amps with flexible crossovers, solid controls, direct wire connections (as opposed to barrier strips). I'm willing to pay more for an amp I feel is built with these features in them, among many other considerations. I would also purchase a US made amp before overseas stuff when all else is equal again...


----------



## WRX/Z28

MarkZ said:


> "Burn up"? ...
> 
> What _happened_ to it? That's the question I asked. The truth is that you have no idea what the culprit is if you don't know what happened to it. You can guess about "poor design", "poor build quality", "poor parts selection", etc, as much as you want, but there's no possible way you can know if any of those things are the culprit if you don't actually know what went wrong with it. Your sample size is obviously way too small to be able to make any statements about build quality based strictly on failure rate. Especially since the consensus around here (with a much larger sample size than 1...) is that that line is fairly immune to failure.


Older JL slash series amps have a common daughter board seperation failure. This has been documented, and as a dealer I saw a bit of it. It was corrected in V2 and V3's of the slash series from what I saw. 

If you believe that slash didn't have a high failure rate, you must not be aware of the issue, or going off personal bias. 

FWIW, once the daughter board was properly secured, the slash series were pretty much bulletproof, except for their terminals which were easy to strip.


----------



## MarkZ

WRX/Z28 said:


> I'm a believer in "Buy american and american's work". Does it mean that i'm 100% certain that it helps the economy? No. Would I be willing to bet that in most instances it does. Yes. The short truth is the majority of our unemployment is in assembly line level jobs. These are the jobs being lost.


You're neglecting the fact that good economies are not the product of employment rates. Rather, high employment rates are the product of good economies. There are a ton of ways to artificially boost employment rates -- _including_ by spending more to buy american -- but they don't actually improve the economy. That strategy simply redistributes wealth... hence my crack earlier about it being a Keynesian approach. 

When you artificially manipulate employment, you can't use it as a barometer for economic success. By analogy, suppose you want to measure how loud your system is by measuring how much power your amplifier is outputting. Obviously, amplifier power is just one piece of the puzzle, but nevertheless power can still provide some information. But what happens when someone artificially increases the power output by adding a resistor in parallel with their speaker? [as you know, some people actually ask that question here... ]


----------



## MarkZ

WRX/Z28 said:


> Older JL slash series amps have a common daughter board seperation failure. This has been documented, and as a dealer I saw a bit of it. It was corrected in V2 and V3's of the slash series from what I saw.
> 
> If you believe that slash didn't have a high failure rate, you must not be aware of the issue, or going off personal bias.
> 
> FWIW, once the daughter board was properly secured, the slash series were pretty much bulletproof, except for their terminals which were easy to strip.


I have no horse in that race. I've never owned a JL amplifier and don't have any immediate plans to. My point was a broader one... that what he is labeling as "cheap chinese garbage" based on his limited exposure to four chinese amps is a logically bankrupt argument.


----------



## putergod

MarkZ said:


> "Burn up"? ...
> 
> What _happened_ to it? That's the question I asked. The truth is that you have no idea what the culprit is if you don't know what happened to it. You can guess about "poor design", "poor build quality", "poor parts selection", etc, as much as you want, but there's no possible way you can know if any of those things are the culprit if you don't actually know what went wrong with it. Your sample size is obviously way too small to be able to make any statements about build quality based strictly on failure rate. Especially since the consensus around here (with a much larger sample size than 1...) is that that line is fairly immune to failure.


Ummm... Obviously, heat generated through the parts in the product was too intense for the product to dissipate. Do I "know" what caused heat levels that the product obviously could not handle? Besides from just jamming to some good ole Christian Metal, no I do not. Nor did I care enough about the product, other than my money "burned up", to "find out" (all I did was open it, saw the fried resistors, closed it and told myself I was done experimenting with their crap). I bought those amps because I just wanted something "decent" (and budget oriented) in the Saab since the stock system was seriously lacking. I knew the modest amount of power I wanted, the price range I wanted, and wasn’t, at the time, concerned about “quality” as much as normal (my mistake). The GTO contains my "real system", and I wasn't interested in competition level audio in the Saab. However, after I got "burned" (pun intended), I went back to my roots and got what is still running strong in it today (2 years later), and ripped the Chinese crap out, and swore never to purchase another Chinese amp as long I lived and it remained possible to avoid. Sure, I paid a little more, but it was worth it.


----------



## MarkZ

putergod said:


> Ummm... Obviously, heat generated through the parts in the product was too intense for the product to dissipate.


You haven't made it clear why this is obvious. Amps can fail for LOTS of reasons. You're assuming that it overheated and that the thermal protection failed, but what are you basing this on? Do you remember which resistors fried? That might provide a clue.


----------



## WRX/Z28

MarkZ said:


> You're neglecting the fact that good economies are not the product of employment rates. Rather, high employment rates are the product of good economies. There are a ton of ways to artificially boost employment rates -- _including_ by spending more to buy american -- but they don't actually improve the economy. That strategy simply redistributes wealth... hence my crack earlier about it being a Keynesian approach.
> 
> When you artificially manipulate employment, you can't use it as a barometer for economic success. By analogy, suppose you want to measure how loud your system is by measuring how much power your amplifier is outputting. Obviously, amplifier power is just one piece of the puzzle, but nevertheless power can still provide some information. But what happens when someone artificially increases the power output by adding a resistor in parallel with their speaker? [as you know, some people actually ask that question here... ]


You can argue the chicken/egg theory... but I think you need both to keep the species alive. Employed people spend money, businesses have money being spent, profitability goes up, they pay suppliers for more product and the circle continues. Can't be missing a link in the chain, but it all begins with the consumer having money to spend IMO.


----------



## putergod

MarkZ said:


> You're neglecting the fact that good economies are not the product of employment rates. Rather, high employment rates are the product of good economies. There are a ton of ways to artificially boost employment rates -- _including_ by spending more to buy american -- but they don't actually improve the economy. That strategy simply redistributes wealth... hence my crack earlier about it being a Keynesian approach.
> 
> When you artificially manipulate employment, you can't use it as a barometer for economic success. By analogy, suppose you want to measure how loud your system is by measuring how much power your amplifier is outputting. Obviously, amplifier power is just one piece of the puzzle, but nevertheless power can still provide some information. But what happens when someone artificially increases the power output by adding a resistor in parallel with their speaker? [as you know, some people actually ask that question here... ]


Increasing American manufacturing increases jobs. That's not artificial. Therefore, supporting companies that use American manufacturing helps keep it here. That is also not artificial.



MarkZ said:


> I have no horse in that race. I've never owned a JL amplifier and don't have any immediate plans to. My point was a broader one... that what he is labeling as "cheap chinese garbage" based on his limited exposure to four chinese amps is a logically bankrupt argument.


Nothing bankrupt about MY OPINION. I already said that the rest of you can continue buying what you want, and believe what you want. I will continue buying what I want, and believe what I believe, from my own experience.



MarkZ said:


> You haven't made it clear why this is obvious. Amps can fail for LOTS of reasons. You're assuming that it overheated and that the thermal protection failed, but what are you basing this on? Do you remember which resistors fried? That might provide a clue.


It's obvious because parts were fried! If you catch a log on fire, it burns because the heat is too great for it to dissipate. I don't care WHY it fried, all I care about is that it did! SOMETHING failed in the amp, period. amps don't just burn-up like that otherwise. It was installed correctly, it was on a load that was well within it's "design limits" (according to the manufacturer) and it died. What, exactly, failed inside the amp is of no consequence to me. I will never use one of them again.

If you are really that "curious" about it, I will dig it out, and take pics for you, so much as though you agree that the amp failed, and understand that I don't really care about it. AND, you do not attempt some half baked "excuse" as to why this amp, that I percieve as a shoddy POS, failed in an attempt to try to excuse the "quality" of said amp in order to attempt to "change my mind" about it. Deal?


----------



## MarkZ

WRX/Z28 said:


> You can argue the chicken/egg theory... but I think you need both to keep the species alive. Employed people spend money, businesses have money being spent, profitability goes up, they pay suppliers for more product and the circle continues. Can't be missing a link in the chain, but it all begins with the consumer having money to spend IMO.


All of this is true -- the distribution of money within an economy _is_ important -- but manipulating it by favoring a particular industry is necessarily done at the expense of another. The parable of the broken window explains why this is the case. Good economies are about consumption and efficiency. Self-sufficiency for the sake of self-sufficiency reduces efficiency and therefore consumption and living standards. I used the example earlier of knitting your own clothes and harvesting your own food... it's not an economically beneficial strategy unless you can do those things more efficiently than suppliers can.


----------



## WRX/Z28

JAX said:


> SS edge amp ? That's what ? The low level from them at the time ? It couldn't possibly cost much and I don't think much of it. I wouldn't expect it too last
> 
> 
> JL Audio 500/1 . Interesting. I notice tons of these in eBay broke. I asked my tech and he said cause despite JL tainting them 1ohm stable they are not and they fail cause they can't handle the load. Other than that they are good solid amps. Lots of controls and Tiffany RCA jacks ( always love that)
> 
> The slash amps are pretty solid. I've had them b4. Would use again.
> 
> The design is fairly good my engineer says
> 
> 
> US Amps ( love them b4 sell out , period )
> 
> Mmats - good stuff.
> 
> 
> So after some Jensen , a cheap ss and 1 JL audio you decided all foreign amps are junk
> 
> The JL was the only good one out of that bunch


JL does not rate their slash series as 1ohm stable, rather 1.5 ohm (important distinction). A main failure as I said before was the daughter board seperation. This was aggravated by people mounting their amps to the sub box and exposing them to extra vibration. 

Amps are amps. Unless you need specific features, or desire a certain look, they all get the job done.


----------



## MarkZ

putergod said:


> Increasing American manufacturing increases jobs. That's not artificial. Therefore, supporting companies that use American manufacturing helps keep it here. That is also not artificial.


It is artificial when you're deliberately doing it, and price is no longer dictating the terms. It's like people who say they want to spend extra to support B&M stores instead of buying things online. That's fine, but it's not providing an economic boost.

These debates, by the way, are literally hundreds of years old. They were even more common during the industrial revolution, when people started lamenting the fact that you could achieve greater output with fewer workers. I think it's widely accepted now that this is good for the economy.



> Nothing bankrupt about MY OPINION. I already said that the rest of you can continue buying what you want, and believe what you want. I will continue buying what I want, and believe what I believe, from my own experience.


Haha, oh come on. When you said people could continue buying what they want, it was accompanied by some superiority complex crack that said something along the lines of, "if they want to keep buying chinese garbage that sounds bad and breaks, then they can go right ahead." (paraphrasing)




> It's obvious because parts were fried! If you catch a log on fire, it burns because the heat is too great for it to dissipate.


Ugh. As an electronics technician, I'm sure you're aware that "fried parts" don't necessarily mean that the conditions got too hot. You can have circuit failures that burn up a component that have nothing to do with temperature, heat, or the ability of the device to dissipate energy. For example, you mentioned that a resistor in one of your amps "fell off". Well, I can think of many resistors in an amp that if they fell off would cause a component to "fry". 

You're jumping to conclusions about an entire country's output -- which includes literally hundreds of manufacturers that develop products, some of which are very highly-regarded -- based on a few bad amps that you have no idea what happened to. You honestly don't see the problem with this logic? What if I said "I know three black people and they're all assholes, therefore black people suck." Do you understand the problem with that logic?


----------



## WRX/Z28

MarkZ said:


> It is artificial when you're deliberately doing it, and price is no longer dictating the terms. It's like people who say they want to spend extra to support B&M stores instead of buying things online. That's fine, but it's not providing an economic boost.



Debatable. I work partially in retail, and if you spend money in my store, I have money to spend elsewhere, so it does provide economic boost that way. 



MarkZ said:


> These debates, by the way, are literally hundreds of years old. They were even more common during the industrial revolution, when people started lamenting the fact that you could achieve greater output with fewer workers. I think it's widely accepted now that this is good for the economy.



Meh, cheaper goods are never a bad thing (when quality doesn't suffer), but loss of unskilled jobs is bad for the economy any way you slice it. 



MarkZ said:


> Haha, oh come on. When you said people could continue buying what they want, it was accompanied by some superiority complex crack that said something along the lines of, "if they want to keep buying chinese garbage that sounds bad and breaks, then they can go right ahead." (paraphrasing)


People today are driven by cheapest price far more than money well spent. I fully believe it should be the other way around. As consumers, we can't skirt the blame. We are turning into a nation of consumers and not producers. Nothing could be worse for us. 




MarkZ said:


> Ugh. As an electronics technician, I'm sure you're aware that "fried parts" don't necessarily mean that the conditions got too hot. You can have circuit failures that burn up a component that have nothing to do with temperature, heat, or the ability of the device to dissipate energy. For example, you mentioned that a resistor in one of your amps "fell off". Well, I can think of many resistors in an amp that if they fell off would cause a component to "fry".


Truth, typically components do not just fry from heat when the unit is competently designed/operated accordign to the instructions, however thermal failures can occur in poorly designed products. Definately more likely to have the product operating outside it's limits. 




MarkZ said:


> You're jumping to conclusions about an entire country's output -- which includes literally hundreds of manufacturers that develop products, some of which are very highly-regarded -- based on a few bad amps that you have no idea what happened to. You honestly don't see the problem with this logic? What if I said "I know three black people and they're all assholes, therefore black people suck." Do you understand the problem with that logic?


Obviously flawed logic, but people have grown so accustomed to such generalizations that it's the norm. Hence stereotypes. That doesn't mean that some stereotypes aren't true.


----------



## putergod

MarkZ said:


> It is artificial when you're deliberately doing it, and price is no longer dictating the terms. It's like people who say they want to spend extra to support B&M stores instead of buying things online. That's fine, but it's not providing an economic boost.


Again this is not true. It is very much real, and not artificial. Price ALWAYS dictates to some degree. The REASON chinese amps are cheaper is because it costs less to produce. Labor is cheaper, mass production is cheaper, etc. However, I still stand by "you get what you pay for". I spend extra to support my people, and I know I am getting better product, whether you agree with that or not.



MarkZ said:


> Haha, oh come on. When you said people could continue buying what they want, it was accompanied by some superiority complex crack that said something along the lines of, "if they want to keep buying chinese garbage that sounds bad and breaks, then they can go right ahead." (paraphrasing)


Yup. No argument with your assessment of my statement that I still stand behind.



MarkZ said:


> Ugh. As an electronics technician, I'm sure you're aware that "fried parts" don't necessarily mean that the conditions got too hot. You can have circuit failures that burn up a component that have nothing to do with temperature, heat, or the ability of the device to dissipate energy. For example, you mentioned that a resistor in one of your amps "fell off". Well, I can think of many resistors in an amp that if they fell off would cause a component to "fry".


This is partially incorrect. Electronics do NOT fry (any more than anything else) unless more energy than the componant can dissipate, runs through it. The REASON as to WHY more energy than the component can dissipate ran through it can come from many things, but the fact remains, it will not fry unless that happens. THAT is simple physics.



MarkZ said:


> You're jumping to conclusions about an entire country's output -- which includes literally hundreds of manufacturers that develop products, some of which are very highly-regarded -- based on a few bad amps that you have no idea what happened to. You honestly don't see the problem with this logic? What if I said "I know three black people and they're all assholes, therefore black people suck." Do you understand the problem with that logic?


Actually, my opinion of the "entire countries output" stems from MUCH more than just a few amps. I have owned many many products of China, as have just about anyone on the face of the planet, and time and time again the quality of those products are far below that of competing products built here, or even other countries (like those in Europe).


----------



## MarkZ

putergod said:


> Again this is not true. It is very much real, and not artificial. Price ALWAYS dictates to some degree. The REASON chinese amps are cheaper is because it costs less to produce. Labor is cheaper, mass production is cheaper, etc. However, I still stand by "you get what you pay for". I spend extra to support my people, and I know I am getting better product, whether you agree with that or not.


I don't agree with it because it is easy to demonstrate that it's not true. In fact, that's kinda what this forum started out as. There are many many many cases where you have high-performing low-cost equipment that outperforms much more expensive equipment in certain applications. That doesn't mean it's necessarily better, and it doesn't mean that people want it more. But it does mean that "you get what you pay for" is far too simplistic of a rule to be of any usefulness.




> This is partially incorrect. Electronics do NOT fry (any more than anything else) unless more energy than the componant can dissipate, runs through it. The REASON as to WHY more energy than the component can dissipate ran through it can come from many things, but the fact remains, it will not fry unless that happens. THAT is simple physics.


You totally missed the point. If your resistor falls off, your component can fry. Some circuits are even designed to do this (think of crowbar circuits, for example). That often has nothing to do with how well an amplifier can withstand abuse, how much heat it can handle, or robust it is. It's just a point of failure, sometimes even caused by misuse (see WRX's example of daughterboards). So, when you say your component "burned up", and have no idea what component burned up or how it burned up, it's tenuous at best to conclude that the amp just wasn't cut out for heavy duty or was designed poorly.





> Actually, my opinion of the "entire countries output" stems from MUCH more than just a few amps. I have owned many many products of China, as have just about anyone on the face of the planet, and time and time again the quality of those products are far below that of competing products built here, or even other countries (like those in Europe).


Sometimes. And then sometimes they're not.

You paint with a broad brush, my friend.


----------



## putergod

MarkZ said:


> I don't agree with it because it is easy to demonstrate that it's not true. In fact, that's kinda what this forum started out as. There are many many many cases where you have high-performing low-cost equipment that outperforms much more expensive equipment in certain applications. That doesn't mean it's necessarily better, and it doesn't mean that people want it more. But it does mean that "you get what you pay for" is far too simplistic of a rule to be of any usefulness.


Continue your self justification for boosting China's GDP and economy. If you must keep saying this so you don't feel bad about your decisions, then I understand. Nothing I've said changes, however.



MarkZ said:


> You totally missed the point. If your resistor falls off, your component can fry. Some circuits are even designed to do this (think of crowbar circuits, for example). That often has nothing to do with how well an amplifier can withstand abuse, how much heat it can handle, or robust it is. It's just a point of failure, sometimes even caused by misuse (see WRX's example of daughterboards). So, when you say your component "burned up", and have no idea what component burned up or how it burned up, it's tenuous at best to conclude that the amp just wasn't cut out for heavy duty or was designed poorly.


And YOU have totally missed MY point. You seem to be the type that "excuses" failures of "overhyped products". I.e., I have some people at work who are riding on Toyota's shlong. Yet, their vehicles have had to go in the shop far more than my "piece of crap GM product"; yet they somehow continue to "excuse it" because it is a Toyota (or Honda). However, if my car has to go in the shop for any reason it is automatically a POS.

Two of these people, along with myself, had to push a Camry out of the main drive at work and into the parking lot. It sat there for a week before it was finally towed away (the owner and her father was out there a few times working on it, obviously unsuccessfully). Yet, when I try and bring that fact up, it gets ignore because anytime a Toyota breaks down it's "ok, because all cars break down", but as soon as a GM or Ford breaks down it is a "POS". They are blinded by brand "hype". You seem blinded by JL's "brand hype".




MarkZ said:


> Sometimes. And then sometimes they're not.
> 
> You paint with a broad brush, my friend.


More often than not... MUCH more often than not.


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## MarkZ

Unlike you, I don't have a horse in this race. I have no reason to justify spending lots of money on amps or not spending lots of money on amps. I don't even think about amps on a personal level and haven't in a long time because I've had the two I'm using now for about ten years, and I'm all set. One is chinese garbage that has worked flawlessly for close to a decade. The other is... well, I don't know where the hell 90s-era a/d/s/ amps were constructed, nor do I give a ****. But I know this particular amp inside and out, and I know that with the exception of the crossovers (which I don't use), the design is not unique and it's basically like every other ****ing amp. It has a differential stage, a transconductance stage, and a few Toshiba output devices (those are Japanese... is that ok with you?). The SMPS is rather unremarkable, I forget what they use for FETs because it _doesn't really matter_.

I also know that I'm not "blinded" by JL Audio brand hype, because I don't own one, have never owned one, have no desire to own one, and really don't pay much attention to JL Audio products overall. You obviously have your mind made up about every manufacturer and every product ever made, and it's based strictly on the flag they fly outside their door. In short, you're ignorant.


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## quality_sound

WRX/Z28 said:


> You do realize that Punch75 made [email protected] right? $330/150watts= $2.20 a watt.
> 
> 
> Any way you slice it, amps sound the same. Amp's do not have the same features, build quality, terminals, size, power ratings, thermal capabilities.
> 
> The reason amps like the Art series are so popular is that they were engineered well, and would take abuse. They ran forever, hence my large collection of them that are around 15-20 years old. They were lacking some features though...
> 
> Today's amps are feature packed, and you can find well built amps that unfortunately are not made here anymore. They are typically still designed here, just not made here. Quality is obviously debatable. There is not, and never will be a universally accepted quality meter. We just have to agree to disagree.
> 
> I'm a believer in "Buy american and american's work". Does it mean that i'm 100% certain that it helps the economy? No. Would I be willing to bet that in most instances it does. Yes. The short truth is the majority of our unemployment is in assembly line level jobs. These are the jobs being lost.
> 
> You can argue til you're blue in the face that foreign products are not solely to blame, and maybe you're right, but buying american products never hurt america either.


Yes, I know how much power it made bridged. That's beside the point.


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## putergod

MarkZ said:


> I also know that I'm not "blinded" by JL Audio brand hype, because I don't own one, have never owned one, have no desire to own one, and really don't pay much attention to JL Audio products overall.


Your statements say otherwise, but whatever.



MarkZ said:


> You obviously have your mind made up about every manufacturer and every product ever made, and it's based strictly on the flag they fly outside their door. In short, you're ignorant.


First, ignorance is bliss. Second, I know what I am saying as I have experienced it. So, therefore, by definition, not ignorant.
You're not Chinese are you? Just trying to figure out where this blind dedication is coming from.

And I'm not worried about what you are running as that is your business, however, Japan > China. And old school A/D/S were American (some Japanese, but NONE Chinese). Not sure when the switch was made, so I don't know where your particular unit was made.



quality_sound said:


> Yes, I know how much power it made bridged. That's beside the point.


No, that is EXACTLY the point!


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## daveds50

JAX said:


> My super tech had never charged me more than $75 to fix and hid turn around time is less than a day. He is cheaper than anyone in country because he is good


 hah ha ! the real reason is because i am super high volume. i mostly deal with companies... but always make time for the "little guy". 
i am actually an engineer... that has always loved doing my own "hands on". i actually prefer ripping into a amp, head unit, home audio piece, more than i do sitting on front of a computer designing circuits. the only fun thing about that to me, is building my own prototypes from scratch. yeah, call me old school... but i actually dont mind getting my hands dirty. 



quality_sound said:


> Well that an a lot of newer amps are very, very difficult to repair by anymore.





quality_sound said:


> True. Through hole is WAY easier.


 totally disagree... but then again, most people that think they are repair techs, are not willing to invest in the proper SMT equipment to do the job. i have seen some real hack jobs by people that seem to get recommended a lot here. 
i am just waiting for someone to send me a class D full range that uses SMT FET's that some hack had previously attempted to worked on. thats going to be funny :laugh:



WRX/Z28 said:


> JL does not rate their slash series as 1ohm stable, rather 1.5 ohm (important distinction). A main failure as I said before was the daughter board seperation. This was aggravated by people mounting their amps to the sub box and exposing them to extra vibration.


 well... the most common amp sent to me from private parties, is JL of various flavors. around 30-50 a month. 

i use a JL 250/1 in my kids Powerwheel. i soldered the daughter board direct, as it had to be mounted in a place and way that is not exactly recommended. but the amp is modified and parts replaced with much higher grade parts, so it has been fine... seriously abused beyond what any amp should be subjected to, but fine. 

anyway, i'll stay out of the rest of this thread. all i will say, is that the build quality of some of the countries, has been getting better. there are some decent samples, even from China. not terrific, but decent. ( component quality is for a different story ) but there has been both good and poor quality from all countries since the beginning. i've seen some pretty awful made in the USA amps too.


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## ChrisB

The only dog I have in this fight is that anyone believing the current "Made in USA" claims is being deceived and falling for it hook, line, and sinker, since it is nearly impossible for substantially ALL of the components to be sourced in the USA from US manufacturers, made in the USA.

Good job guys, you are falling for clever marketing that is not within the current US FTC guidelines for meeting the true "Made in USA" standard that I posted earlier. They are preying on your emotions and your wallet and you are blindly letting them do so by not requiring that they prove to you exactly WHAT is made in the USA in their "Made in USA" products. Wake up, because you are being duped out of your hard earned cash over a lie!


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## JAX

daveds50 said:


> hah ha ! the real reason is because i am super high volume. i mostly deal with companies... but always make time for the "little guy".
> 
> i am just waiting for someone to send me a class D full range that uses SMT FET's that some hack had previously attempted to worked on. thats going to be funny :laugh:



well I am trying to make people undestand there is a difference in quality of work. I know you do volume because you have the right tools and equipment and therefore allows you to charge less and get product turned around fast..

it sounded better saying your "good" 


and if I keep the JL XD amps I will be sending them to you of course.


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## daveds50

ChrisB said:


> The only dog I have in this fight is that anyone believing the current "Made in USA" claims is being deceived and falling for it hook, line, and sinker, since it is nearly impossible for substantially ALL of the components to be sourced in the USA from US manufacturers, made in the USA.


 ah come on... they said that foreign cars were the best, so we bought a Mustang. 
and then they said to buy american, so we bought a Honda Accord. 

 

oh wait... we are talking about amps. 

no car amp is 100% USA, and never has been. if there was one, then certain parts would be inferior to what could be used. certain countries are masters at certain parts. and the USA is masters at other parts. a great amp can be a mixture of both. 

what i find funny, is the amps that say "Designed in the USA"... some of them, i open up, and all i see is low grade China parts with shoddy work. 

there are a few decent amps that are made in China, but most are a pretty low standard... funny thing is, people like some of those low standard amps.


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## JAX

daveds50 said:


> ah come on... they said that foreign cars were the best, so we bought a Mustang.
> and then they said to buy american, so we bought a Honda Accord.
> 
> 
> 
> oh wait... we are talking about amps.
> 
> no car amp is 100% USA, and never has been. if there was one, then certain parts would be inferior to what could be used. certain countries are masters at certain parts. and the USA is masters at other parts. a great amp can be a mixture of both.
> 
> what i find funny, is the amps that say "Designed in the USA"... some of them, i open up, and all i see is low grade China parts with shoddy work.
> 
> there are a few decent amps that are made in China, but most are a pretty low standard... funny thing is, people like some of those low standard amps.




Names.... Lol. 

If your not going to say which ones you feel are not as great as people think then tell me some you do like.


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## WRX/Z28

ChrisB said:


> The only dog I have in this fight is that anyone believing the current "Made in USA" claims is being deceived and falling for it hook, line, and sinker, since it is nearly impossible for substantially ALL of the components to be sourced in the USA from US manufacturers, made in the USA.
> 
> Good job guys, you are falling for clever marketing that is not within the current US FTC guidelines for meeting the true "Made in USA" standard that I posted earlier. They are preying on your emotions and your wallet and you are blindly letting them do so by not requiring that they prove to you exactly WHAT is made in the USA in their "Made in USA" products. Wake up, because you are being duped out of your hard earned cash over a lie!


I don't think anyone is dumb enough to believe that any piece of electronics could be completely made in the U.S. all parts included, however most of us believe that design, and final assembly can be done here. I'd consider that at least partially made in the U.S., and still supporting US workers. 

I liken it to my contractor helping me renovate a room. Doesn't matter if sheet rock is only made in canada (fictitious example), my american contractor still did the renovation. I wouldn't say the renovation was made in canada. I would say it was done here in my house.


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## lizardking

Hate to bring up a thread from the past, but I noticed that the JL HD series is "Made in China". I figured their top of the line amps would be made here or somewhere other than China. "Want it cheap and want it now" drives this. To me it's not about the people of China but rather they're working conditions, treatment and serious lack of compliance to ensure basic standards are followed in manufacturing.


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## JAX

lizardking said:


> Hate to bring up a thread from the past, but I noticed that the JL HD series is "Made in China". I figured their top of the line amps would be made here or somewhere other than China. "Want it cheap and want it now" drives this. To me it's not about the people of China but rather they're working conditions, treatment and serious lack of compliance to ensure basic standards are followed in manufacturing.




people dont spend like they used to. can hardly afford groceries now much less amps that cost way more than needed


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## ChrisB

I had absolutely zero problems with my HD900/5. I'd still be rocking it if I hadn't been in a hurry to get rid of the Mehstang. I guess that is what I get for trading a car in near the end of the year since the dealership was giving me a pretty good price for it in wrecked condition. That was one of those "Oh crap, you're going to give me full trade-in value even though there is a hole in the bumper" moments. SOLD!


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## lizardking

JAX said:


> people dont spend like they used to. can hardly afford groceries now much less amps that cost way more than needed



Exactly, which is why we should be investing here rather than support a Government that suppress its people. Made in America is slowly picking up steam and people are willing to pay more for it. As you mention, our people need jobs. US Companies must make the change.


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## JAX

lizardking said:


> Exactly, which is why we should be investing here rather than support a Government that suppress its people. Made in America is slowly picking up steam and people are willing to pay more for it. As you mention, our people need jobs. US Companies must make the change.



we are being de industrialized in this country. we make almost nothing and import almost everything and owe everyone. 

your fairy tale is over. never going to be what once was. the big corporations have the power to change this but they dont cause its owners want it this way.

you will have mega corporations owned by mega rich that will control the source of all things globally . 


what government are you referring to as suppressing its people? ours is doing a pretty good job right here of trying to suppress peoples rights to free speech and the constitution.


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## pyfocal

In the industry I work in I am seeing a lot of work come back here from overseas because of quality, delivery time and dedication of most American workers. I just did an install in New Hampshire where a company that was thinking of closing that facility a few years ago just put their faith in it and did a 20 million dollar expansion. We can make it happen if we work hard enough. I wouldn't have said this 10 years ago but I believe it today.


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## JAX

the people with the money make it happen. when I say money I mean the real money. 

and if they decide your not in their plans then they can also make it go away. 

entire cities are bankrupt. its pretty serious


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## lizardking

True....this Country was bought and sold 200 years ago. All they do is move things around every four years to give us the illusion we're in control.


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## PPI_GUY

There may be some folks participating in this thread that can help answer a few questions for me. Here goes...
We all know that only a few build houses in China and Korea are supplying the boards and components in 99% of the imported amps on the market today. So, why couldn't some American company open their own domestic build house using the same automated production techniques as China and Korea? Is it simply a cost problem to setup the assembly lines and purchase the equipment? Would sourcing components be a problem because an American company would need to either manufacture its own parts or import them from China/Korea?
I know I would buy something that says "Made In America" on it even if it was assembled in the same exact way as an item made in China or Korea. And if most of the assembly process is automated anyway, wouldn't labor costs be minimal or offset by the savings in logistics anyway?


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## benny

I didn't read the whole thread. Anybody mentioned Harrison Labs? They're still around.


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## ChrisB

PPI_GUY said:


> There may be some folks participating in this thread that can help answer a few questions for me. Here goes...
> We all know that only a few build houses in China and Korea are supplying the boards and components in 99% of the imported amps on the market today. So, why couldn't some American company open their own domestic build house using the same automated production techniques as China and Korea? Is it simply a cost problem to setup the assembly lines and purchase the equipment? Would sourcing components be a problem because an American company would need to either manufacture its own parts or import them from China/Korea?
> I know I would buy something that says "Made In America" on it even if it was assembled in the same exact way as an item made in China or Korea. And if most of the assembly process is automated anyway, wouldn't labor costs be minimal or offset by the savings in logistics anyway?


Most of the modern, high speed, electronics manufacturing machinery is in the Pacific Rim countries. Furthermore, most of the components that go in those amplifiers moved overseas because of the strict EPA and other guidelines to manufacture them here in the USA. Lastly, with most of the components being imported, a company will NEVER meet the strict guidelines of "Made in USA" as defined by the Federal Trade Commission. In fact, there is a certain company that is in direct violation of the FTC's definition yet many are still bragging how these amplifiers are made in the USA.

For example, they will never comply with this part:


> *The Standard For Unqualified Made In USA Claims*
> 
> *What is the standard for a product to be called Made in USA without qualification?*
> 
> For a product to be called Made in USA, or claimed to be of domestic origin without qualifications or limits on the claim, the product must be "all or virtually all" made in the U.S. The term "United States," as referred to in the Enforcement Policy Statement, includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the U.S. territories and possessions.
> *
> What does "all or virtually all" mean?*
> 
> "All or virtually all" means that all significant parts and processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin. That is, the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content.


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## Victor_inox

M3NTAL said:


> None of the reasons you have listed are important to me.
> My family members have lost their jobs multiple times from outsourcing. It makes it very rough for the whole family.


Blame American consumers, not Chinese workers or American corporations for that matter.


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## lizardking

That's true ^^^ the American way. We want our **** now, we want it cheap, and we don't care how you're treated to make it happen for us.


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## Hispls

WRX/Z28 said:


> I don't think anyone is dumb enough to believe that any piece of electronics could be completely made in the U.S. all parts included, however most of us believe that design, and final assembly can be done here. I'd consider that at least partially made in the U.S., and still supporting US workers.
> 
> I liken it to my contractor helping me renovate a room. Doesn't matter if sheet rock is only made in canada (fictitious example), my american contractor still did the renovation. I wouldn't say the renovation was made in canada. I would say it was done here in my house.


A friend of mine lost about a quarter million dollars on a spec house in Florida that was made with Chinese sheetrock that turned out to be unsafe so none of the houses using that were inhabitable. 

I bet he saved about 1000$ on the job using the cheap sheetrock though!

Pay now or pay later.


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## Victor_inox

What made in USa really means? 
in case of swiss watches is pretty straight forward, 51 % of parts must be made in Switzerland and final assembly as well. try assembling anything from non existing American components. damn, take apart military equipment, not much usa made components there. You will never find that in German or Russian weaponry.


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## Gloomis696969

thehatedguy said:


> JL amps are Korean made.


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## Gloomis696969

Not entirely true. All of the more budget-friendly JL amplifiers are made in Korea or China but all of the high-end models are made in the US, but may contain Japanese Chinese or Korean parts.


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## Lou Frasier2

e it by your user name that you are a fisherman?


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