# MLV from HomeDepot?



## Blorton

Is this the stuff I want to get?

4 ft. x 25 ft. Flooring Acoustical Underlayment-DB448X25IBX at The Home Depot

Thanks.


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## The A Train

Its slightly less dense as some specialty products (3/4lb compared to about a pound per square foot). But, for the price it does seem to be a decent option.


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## DaveRulz

The key here is that it's at a place where most people can get their hands on it easily. 

Don (Rudeboy), care to chime in? Is this even worth thinking about or are we better off looking elsewhere?


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## The A Train

Im not an expert like Rudeboy, but I believe the object of the MLV is to create a sound 'barrier.' You want to block all the road noise ect out with this. So, the denser the better. This stuff aint the best, but it sure as hell is leaps and bounds better than that pond liner many have tried. I may have to give this stuff a try for myself...


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## DaveRulz

Yeah, actually, my question is does it financially make sense. IE, the Cost per lb/sf. Does this stuff compare to the other materials available in terms of cost. 

One square foot of this stuff is $0.75 for .75lb/sf
One square foot of lead sheet is $7.00 for 2.5lb/sf
What does one square foot of the other options cost and how much does it weigh per sf?


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## The A Train

LLP from second skin is 1.2lb/sqft. 90sqft roll is 108lbs and costs 330. Should be about $3.06 per pound


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## DaveRulz

Thanks, just to put it all together:



> One square foot of this stuff is $0.75 for .75lb/sf
> One Square foot of SS LLP is $3.66 for 1.2lb/sf
> One square foot of lead sheet is $7.00 for 2.5lb/sf


So, you could put two layers of this, have 1.5lb/sf and still be under half the cost of the LLP. OR, for just under the cost of the LLP you could have 4 layers of this and 3lbs/sf. The only downside is probably the thickness you'll add. 

What other options are people using for MLV


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## pionkej

DaveRulz said:


> Yeah, actually, my question is does it financially make sense. IE, the Cost per lb/sf. Does this stuff compare to the other materials available in terms of cost.
> 
> One square foot of this stuff is $0.75 for .75lb/sf
> One square foot of lead sheet is $7.00 for 2.5lb/sf
> What does one square foot of the other options cost and how much does it weigh per sf?


If you can get "ship to store" for free, it sounds like a great deal to me. Looking at the specs (if they are accurate), it is only .75lb/sf BUT it's also only 75mil thick. That means you can double it to hit the same nominal thickness of MLV (1/8") and it then is 1.5lb/sf vs. 1.0lb/sf. 

The stuff from Don is around $2.00/sf plus shipping and I think the Second Skin stuff is even more. This means (again, if the specs are accurate) you can get a denser/cheaper material than MVL in the same footprint. 

Nothing is going to touch the density of lead, but it's also super expensive and toxic. Out of curiousity though, where did you get the $7.00 pricing from. Everything I have found in 2.5lbs has been double that or more.


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## Wattser93

Stupid question:

How does this adhere? I'd like to do this to my car, even if this isn't an optimal product, I'm tired of the noise floor in my car. I have a 2001 Denali, and it rides pretty quiet, but I'd like it to be quieter. With 100ft^2, I should be able to MLV most, if not all of my car.


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## DaveRulz

Home Depot carries lead for chimney flashing.

10 in. x 24 ft. Lead Step Flashing-LDFL10HDR at The Home Depot

50lbs/20sf = 2.5 lbs/sf 
140$/20sf = $7/sf


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## jtaudioacc

pionkej said:


> If you can get "ship to store" for free, it sounds like a great deal to me. Looking at the specs (if they are accurate), it is only .75lb/sf BUT it's also only 75mil thick. That means you can double it to hit the same nominal thickness of MLV (1/8") and it then is 1.5lb/sf vs. 1.0lb/sf.
> 
> The stuff from Don is around $2.00/sf plus shipping and I think the Second Skin stuff is even more. This means (again, if the specs are accurate) you can get a denser/cheaper material than MVL in the same footprint.
> 
> Nothing is going to touch the density of lead, but it's also super expensive and toxic. Out of curiousity though, where did you get the $7.00 pricing from. Everything I have found in 2.5lbs has been double that or more.


it actually says, "free shipping" which really makes helps the price, obviously


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## pionkej

DaveRulz said:


> Home Depot carries lead for chimney flashing.
> 
> 10 in. x 24 ft. Lead Step Flashing-LDFL10HDR at The Home Depot
> 
> 50lbs/20sf = 2.5 lbs/sf
> 140$/20sf = $7/sf


Good find. HD is looking better and better for deadening options (but you should still avoid Peal n' Seal).


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## DaveRulz

It would be even nicer if they carried the MLV in the store, but free shipping through the web is OK too I guess.


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## Blorton

Has anyone seen a suitable foam from these guys that would also work with this? All I've found is the super thin stuff meant to go under hardwood flooring.


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## Blorton

Wattser93 said:


> Stupid question:
> 
> How does this adhere? I'd like to do this to my car, even if this isn't an optimal product, I'm tired of the noise floor in my car. I have a 2001 Denali, and it rides pretty quiet, but I'd like it to be quieter. With 100ft^2, I should be able to MLV most, if not all of my car.


You would need to use something like a spray adhesive to apply this to vertical surfaces and the roof. For the floors, there's no need to glue it down.


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## pionkej

Blorton said:


> Has anyone seen a suitable foam from these guys that would also work with this? All I've found is the super thin stuff meant to go under hardwood flooring.


Try http://www.thefoamfactory.com/

It has some of the better pricing I've found and shipping is pretty cheap since foam is very light. Look under "Closed Cell Foam". Volara is what Raammat sells. I personally prefer the gymnastic rubber since it maintains performance after long periods of compression.


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## Mic10is

I get everything from foam factory


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## pionkej

Wattser93 said:


> Stupid question:
> 
> How does this adhere? I'd like to do this to my car, even if this isn't an optimal product, I'm tired of the noise floor in my car. I have a 2001 Denali, and it rides pretty quiet, but I'd like it to be quieter. With 100ft^2, I should be able to MLV most, if not all of my car.


Gorilla Tape (super strong Duct Tape) works great for vertical surfaces. It will hold fine but is easily removable. Just tape the entire perimiter. 

I have never bothered trying to put MLV on my roof. There is very little noise transmission there that can't be attenuated using a couple pieces of CLD and some foam. Just my .02, but it's coming from a guy who has lined his front doors with lead and foam-filled the entire chassis.


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## Sarthos

What kinda foam do you use on your roof? Only wondering cause I'd be wary of putting foam directly above the dome lights, not sure how much heat the stuff can withstand. Probably okay unless you use some really cheap crap.


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## Mic10is

armaflex sells some foam insulating tape in the HVAC section that I have used for many purposes including roof.

I wouldnt put anything right next to a light, Id leave at least an inch of space if possible. but its made for hvac systems so it prob could withstand heat from a dome light


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## Blorton

Thanks for the foam factory pointer!


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## Sarthos

Well my problem is the dome light can rattle at idle so I need something right near a light. Some stuff seems more heat resistant than others, especially certain stuff like that heatwave stuff that Second skin makes. But it might work well enough to just put a few layers of foil between the light and the foam.


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## pionkej

Sarthos said:


> Well my problem is the dome light can rattle at idle so I need something right near a light. Some stuff seems more heat resistant than others, especially certain stuff like that heatwave stuff that Second skin makes. But it might work well enough to just put a few layers of foil between the light and the foam.


Why not hit it with some silicone? It should stop the rattle, not be affected by the heat, and be easily removable with a razor blade and finesse.


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## Blorton

Great comments all around, thanks guys! While I'm threadjacking my own topic - which of the CLD options makes a good budget choice?


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## pionkej

Blorton said:


> Great comments all around, thanks guys! While I'm threadjacking my own topic - which of the CLD options makes a good budget choice?


This is the one place you don't want to go cheap. The quality of butyl (vs. asphalt) and aluminum thickness are both important. Don (from Sound Deadener Showdown - Your Source for Sound Deadening Products and Information) is who I always use. The stuff from Second Skin is good too. People like Raammat also. I don't think any of those three are bad options.

Don't forget that Don's advice is true, you really only need 25% coverage. Most cases anything above that is just a waste of money!


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## bonvivant

What do you do about the extra thickness that the sound deadening adds?


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## pionkej

bonvivant said:


> What do you do about the extra thickness that the sound deadening adds?


Do you mind specifying what area you're talking about? You have to think that the mass loaded vinyl (MLV) ,or MLV like material, is only 1/8" thick. The closed cell foam (CCF) only needs to be 1/8" also to decouple and will compress to nearly flat if needed. CLD tiles are only 1/16" thick. They should only cover 25% of the area and should go on large flat surfaces (that probably wouldn't be affected by that extra 1/16"). 

You are talking about adding a thickness slightly greater than 1/8" (MLV & compressed CCF) to less than 3/8" (CLD+CCF+MLV) in a proper application which isn't very hard to accomodate.


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## Lorin

You might try the bay for mlv. I was able to source 1 lb mlv for around $1.50 a foot shipped when purchased in large quantity.


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## Sarthos

pionkej said:


> Why not hit it with some silicone? It should stop the rattle, not be affected by the heat, and be easily removable with a razor blade and finesse.


Hit what with what kind of silicone? Fill the gap between my dome light and my roof with silicone?


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## HondAudio

pionkej said:


> If you can get "ship to store" for free, it sounds like a great deal to me. Looking at the specs (if they are accurate), it is only .75lb/sf BUT it's also only 75mil thick. That means you can double it to hit the same nominal thickness of MLV (1/8") and it then is 1.5lb/sf vs. 1.0lb/sf.
> 
> The stuff from Don is around $2.00/sf plus shipping and I think the Second Skin stuff is even more. This means (again, if the specs are accurate) you can get a denser/cheaper material than MVL in the same footprint.
> 
> Nothing is going to touch the density of lead, but it's also super expensive and toxic. Out of curiousity though, where did you get the $7.00 pricing from. Everything I have found in 2.5lbs has been double that or more.


This stuff looks extremely promising. After my local tax [8.95%], this comes to $0.817 per square foot. Doubled up, it's $1.63 per square foot, and 50% denser per square foot than standard MLV at the same 1/8" thickness.

I think we have a winner


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## pionkej

Sarthos said:


> Hit what with what kind of silicone? Fill the gap between my dome light and my roof with silicone?


That is what I was suggesting, but you should be able to just put it around the permiter. It will be solid enough to prevent surface to surface contact but also be easy to remove. If you are hesitant about it, you could always use some butyl "rope". You can pick this up at Autozone (or the like) in the windshield repair area. It is basically the same stuff that is on the back of CLD tiles, so you can remove it by hand if you ever need access again.


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## Rudeboy

DaveRulz said:


> The key here is that it's at a place where most people can get their hands on it easily.
> 
> Don (Rudeboy), care to chime in? Is this even worth thinking about or are we better off looking elsewhere?


This is the first I've seen of this particular product. Similar EVA products have been around for a while but have been less dense than this seems to be. You would want to use two layers since you'd lose 6 dB of attenuation at half the weight (not seeing the .75 lbs/ft² people are referring to, this instead:

• 0.5 lb / sq. ft. EVA layer on bottom
• 0.5 oz. Needled Fiber on top

I can't find any thickness spec on it. It appears to be fairly flexible, so theoretically 1 lb/ft² of limp mass is going to perform the same, no matter what it's made of. Might have to look at some. I'd be pretty happy not to have to ship MLV anymore.


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## Rudeboy

I see now that there's a .75 lb/ft² product for walls, might be better if it's flexible than the composite floor stuff. Just have to see some I guess. I'm a little skeptical of the numbers they are claiming. Drywall is heavy and stiff. The weight is good for blocking sound but the stiffness means it resonates at a fairly high frequency. At the material's resonant frequency, it becomes pretty much transparent to sound. 

That's why you want something that is heavy and limp, to move the resonant frequency below the audible range. Products like Green Glue work by reducing the amplitude of the resonance instead of shifting the frequency.

This isn't terribly important except that they are starting with a rigid material. I just weighed a sheet of 1/2" drywall and it weighed almost 1.5 lbs/ft². Doubling mass should get you 6 dB, so I'm not sure how they're getting the 75% reduction. All that does is make me suspicious of other things they are saying about the materials, again, if it weighs what they say, is limp and can be bonded, etc, it could be a good option.


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## ErinH

For home use...

So, if you wanted to double the layers here do you simply use cc foam in between like we do in the car audio world?

The site mentions laying it down directly in the floor. No decoupling. I'm trying to think of the best application here. Maybe the carpet padding, layer of this, layer of ccf, layer of this, carpet? 
Then for the walls, just a direct coupling or float a layer off the drywall?



I'm asking because I'm genuinely thinking this can be used in the HT.


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## Rudeboy

bikinpunk said:


> For home use...
> 
> So, if you wanted to double the layers here do you simply use cc foam in between like we do in the car audio world?
> 
> The site mentions laying it down directly in the floor. No decoupling. I'm trying to think of the best application here. Maybe the carpet padding, layer of this, layer of ccf, layer of this, carpet?
> Then for the walls, just a direct coupling or float a layer off the drywall?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm asking because I'm genuinely thinking this can be used in the HT.


Alternating high density / low density layers will get you additional attenuation at high frequencies, apart from decoupling. The suggested direct contact application for all of their products is what I was questioning.


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## DaveRulz

Rudeboy said:


> I can't find any thickness spec on it.


Thanks for chiming in Don, 

The description has a lot of information all over the place.
100 square feet, 1 piece per case. Case weight is 75 lbs (100sf/75lbs=.75 lbs/sf
Product thickness (mil) : .75


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## ErinH

Rudeboy said:


> The suggested direct contact application for all of their products is what I was questioning.



Had me curious as well.


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## Rudeboy

DaveRulz said:


> Thanks for chiming in Don,
> 
> The description has a lot of information all over the place.
> 100 square feet, 1 piece per case. Case weight is 75 lbs (100sf/75lbs=.75 lbs/sf
> Product thickness (mil) : .75


Can't be .75 mil 3/4 of 1/1000 inch. Approaching black hole density


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## Rudeboy

bikinpunk said:


> Had me curious as well.


I'm going to buy some. The most interesting product is the wall material at .75 lb/ft², but I can't find anything listed for composition. They also list one of the features as: Light Weight. Might just be marketing overtaking reality.

The direct to the wall installation can't work very well. I understand the marketing imperative - a product that can be installed after wall construction, but increasing the mass of the existing drywall by 50% is going to provide an improvement that is hovering right around the audible threshold. 

MLV is meant for the same general use, but during construction so you can suspend it between layers of drywall at the centers of studs. Laying i on top of suspended ceilings is another common application. 

Same goes for using at as an underlayment. Those products are intended to cushion impact transmission, probably the purpose of the cloth layer on the floor product.

Just because some of the claims are flaky and the specs are incomplete doesn't mean that there might not be something useful here.


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## super750

Let us know how this works out.


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## chrisfromalbany

I thinking that I could just apply it to the back of the doors cut holes for where plastic snap into the door frame. This way I don't need to glue it in place. 

if I tried this as a cheap MLV what would be the place to get cheap CCF to work with it?


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## La Crosse

I found the db 4looring at the HD site yesterday and was pretty enthused. I found some specs that appear to be contradictive and then I found the MSD and was less enthused. I just found this thread so I will comment.
As mentioned above the HD listing says case weight of 75 lb and at 100sq ft that would be .75 lb/sq ft.
I found the manufacturer site (United Plastics) and they have 2 products listed. That would be db 4looring (retail version at .5 lb/ and $83/100sq ft) and db 4looring Pro (commercial version at .75lb/ and $113/100sq ft). 
Since the HD listed price of $75 is less than the manufacturer lsited price of $83 I am reasonably sure HD is selling the .5 lb/sq ft version.
The MSD provided some disappointing information. The MSD will not list the exact composition of each ingredient but it does provide composition ranges.
The ingredient and ranges are:
Asphalt 2%-30%
Limestone Filler 50%-80%
Polyethylene/Vinyl Acetate 5%-20%
Polyester Fiber 0%-2%
The dissapointing ingredient is asphalt. This is not MLV in a pure sense. It is a flooring underlay as marketed. But I bet it will work.
There’s “perfect” and then there’s “good enough”. If this is an 80 % solution I would consider it a success.
I may just try it and use the Black Jack CCF underlay from HD as the decoupler. 
100 sq ft of both will total $115.


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## chrisfromalbany

anyone get this stuff install in there car? I order some from HD but doesnt come in until thursday


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## La Crosse

I also ordered a roll but probably wont see it until next week and will not install for several weeks. 
Also ordered ccf from Foam Factory. Decided not to go with Home Depot floor underlayment.


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## DaveRulz

La Crosse said:


> The MSD provided some disappointing information. The MSD will not list the exact composition of each ingredient but it does provide composition ranges.
> The ingredient and ranges are:
> Asphalt 2%-30%
> Limestone Filler 50%-80%
> Polyethylene/Vinyl Acetate 5%-20%
> Polyester Fiber 0%-2%
> The dissapointing ingredient is asphalt. This is not MLV in a pure sense.


It does not matter what the physical nature of the material is other than it is reasonably maleable to form to where you want to put it, and weights as much as possible per sq/ft.

MLV, Lead, This stuff, it doesn't matter what the actual make-up of the product is as long as it serves the purpose. Asphalt in this situation only means really one thing: More weight per sq/ft. 

We're not talking about CLD here where the composition would make a big difference between asphalt and butyl


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## Rudeboy

DaveRulz said:


> It does not matter what the physical nature of the material is other than it is reasonably maleable to form to where you want to put it, and weights as much as possible per sq/ft.
> 
> MLV, Lead, This stuff, it doesn't matter what the actual make-up of the product is as long as it serves the purpose. Asphalt in this situation only means really one thing: More weight per sq/ft.
> 
> We're not talking about CLD here where the composition would make a big difference between asphalt and butyl


It really needs to be more than reasonably malleable. You need a limp material to keep its resonant frequency below the audible range. I've seen some samples of these products and stiffness is an issue. This may because they use recycled materials. My MLV manufacturer is sending me samples of their EVA products using virgin material but have already told me that they expect them to be much to stiff for our application. Still haven't given up on the idea.


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## adrenalinejunkie

pionkej said:


> Try Foam by Mail, foam products, cushions, mattresses, pillows, seats, sound proofing, memory foams, mattress, pillow,
> 
> It has some of the better pricing I've found and shipping is pretty cheap since foam is very light. Look under "Closed Cell Foam". Volara is what Raammat sells. I personally prefer the gymnastic rubber since it maintains performance after long periods of compression.



As far as the CCF, is 1/8 thickness suffice to do the trick or is it best to get the 1/4? Thanks


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## Rudeboy

adrenalinejunkie said:


> As far as the CCF, is 1/8 thickness suffice to do the trick or is it best to get the 1/4? Thanks


Part of it depends on the compression set characteristics. My rule of thumb is 1/4" where it will be subject to compression, like in the foot wells. 1/8" everywhere else. Sometimes it's easier to go with all 1/8" and just double up where you need it.


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## bhammer

Rudeboy said:


> It really needs to be more than reasonably malleable. You need a limp material to keep its resonant frequency below the audible range. I've seen some samples of these products and stiffness is an issue. This may because they use recycled materials. My MLV manufacturer is sending me samples of their EVA products using virgin material but have already told me that they expect them to be much to stiff for our application. Still haven't given up on the idea.


I've been keeping up with this thread becasue I am working with you now for my order right after Christmas. I don't know the stiffness of your product, but at out local Lowes stores, they carry the same product (in less sq. ft.) and it is pretty darn stiff. My first thought was that I won't be able to have it lay flat around the tunnel and up the sides if sills. I wonder if heating it up with a heat gun would help the situation.


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## Rudeboy

bhammer said:


> I've been keeping up with this thread becasue I am working with you now for my order right after Christmas. I don't know the stiffness of your product, but at out local Lowes stores, they carry the same product (in less sq. ft.) and it is pretty darn stiff. My first thought was that I won't be able to have it lay flat around the tunnel and up the sides if sills. I wonder if heating it up with a heat gun would help the situation.


Is it in the flooring section? The samples I got are pretty small. I need to see larger pieces. It isn't just a question of getting the material to conform - its resonant frequency needs to be below the range we are trying to block.


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## UNBROKEN

Tell me more about lead vs MLV...or are they not used for the same thing ? I know lead sheets are hella expensive...but for some reason there's tons of rolls of that crap in my shop. Stuff my dad rat holed over the years. No idea where it came from or what it's purpose was....but it's about 1/16" thick with some kind of thick paper on one side. 

If it does the same thing as MLV I'd be crazy to not use it, right ?

I have a bare stripped F250 single cab I intend to deaden inside and out.


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## Rudeboy

UNBROKEN said:


> Tell me more about lead vs MLV...or are they not used for the same thing ? I know lead sheets are hella expensive...but for some reason there's tons of rolls of that crap in my shop. Stuff my dad rat holed over the years. No idea where it came from or what it's purpose was....but it's about 1/16" thick with some kind of thick paper on one side.
> 
> If it does the same thing as MLV I'd be crazy to not use it, right ?
> 
> I have a bare stripped F250 single cab I intend to deaden inside and out.


That should weigh about 12 lbs/ft². It would do a hell of a job but a full treatment would add about 700 pounds to the truck  (seriously).


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## UNBROKEN

I looked up 1/16" sheets...the place I looked said it was 4 lbs/ft ?
It may not be quite that thick either...I'm away from home and can't go actually measure it. Just going off memory.

Would it work as a good floor covering combined with the standard butyl based dampener and CCF over that ?

I know I've asked about Armaflex here before and was told it's not quite as good as other stuff out there, but I can get it anywhere form 1/8-1" thick at work for free....so I'm using 1/4" everywhere I can. Gotta save money when ya can....


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## Rudeboy

UNBROKEN said:


> I looked up 1/16" sheets...the place I looked said it was 4 lbs/ft ?
> It may not be quite that thick either...I'm away from home and can't go actually measure it. Just going off memory.
> 
> Would it work as a good floor covering combined with the standard butyl based dampener and CCF over that ?
> 
> I know I've asked about Armaflex here before and was told it's not quite as good as other stuff out there, but I can get it anywhere form 1/8-1" thick at work for free....so I'm using 1/4" everywhere I can. Gotta save money when ya can....


I could have sworn I saw you say it was 3/16". My bad. A regular cab F-150 will need about 70 of barrier, so 280 pounds. That's better. Lead is a great barrier, better than MLV. I'd use it. Free CCF and free lead and you're golden. A little vibration damper and you're good to go.


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## UNBROKEN

Rudeboy said:


> I could have sworn I saw you say it was 3/16".


You did...then I saw I fat fingered the keyboard and fixed it. LOL

Lead seems like it would be kinda hard to attach to vertical surfaces...regular MLV is probably better for the doors and rear cab wall, no ? For ease of installation if nothing else ?


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## jcollin76

I'm glad you guys are talking lead, as I've been considering it for my floor. I was just worried about any possible ill effects from it... I have kids. I imagine as long as they don't decide to gnaw on it, shouldn't be a problem. Right? Lol


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## Rudeboy

UNBROKEN said:


> You did...then I saw I fat fingered the keyboard and fixed it. LOL
> 
> Lead seems like it would be kinda hard to attach to vertical surfaces...regular MLV is probably better for the doors and rear cab wall, no ? For ease of installation if nothing else ?


I don't see why - I'd do it the same way. The only thing I'd be concerned about is putting it somewhere it might be subjected to friction creating dust. Should be fine under carpet. You just want to be sure you don't use it anywhere it could end up inside your body.


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## bhammer

Rudeboy said:


> Is it in the flooring section? The samples I got are pretty small. I need to see larger pieces. It isn't just a question of getting the material to conform - its resonant frequency needs to be below the range we are trying to block.


Here's the link for it. They had 2 boxes at the Lowes down the street from me. Shop 1/4" x 8' x 4' Sound Barrier at Lowes.com

EDIT: If you can find it at your local store, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this. That would save me a bit on shipping I would assume. I would think that the MLV is the cost driver for shipping.


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## jcollin76

Rudeboy said:


> I don't see why - I'd do it the same way. The only thing I'd be concerned about is putting it somewhere it might be subjected to friction creating dust. Should be fine under carpet. You just want to be sure you don't use it anywhere it could end up inside your body.


Thanks rude... 
Would you shoot for 1lbs. or 2lbs. per foot? The thickness is negligible, one of the reasons I want to use it. Lol it's for a crew cab silverado, so weight isn't as big of a deal as for a car.
Would there be a dramatic difference between the two otherwise?


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## Rudeboy

bhammer said:


> Here's the link for it. They had 2 boxes at the Lowes down the street from me. Shop 1/4" x 8' x 4' Sound Barrier at Lowes.com
> 
> The other concern is it has a thin fabric backing to one side. EDIT: If you can find it at your local store, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this. That would save me a bit on shipping I would assume. I would think that the MLV is the cost driver for shipping.


That's the .75 lb/ft² stuff that seems like a better candidate. I'll swing by my Lowe's on the way home from work and see if they have any. Where was it in the store?


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## Rudeboy

jcollin76 said:


> Thanks rude...
> Would you shoot for 1lbs. or 2lbs. per foot? The thickness is negligible, one of the reasons I want to use it. Lol it's for a crew cab silverado, so weight isn't as big of a deal as for a car.
> Would there be a dramatic difference between the two otherwise?


Doubling the mass of a barrier will get you an additional 6 dB of attenuation - significant. That's in an ideal situation so you'll get somewhat less in a vehicle. You also have to consider that yo u aren't starting at zero, so the difference will be based on the net change. Still, I'd go for 2 lbs/ft². That would get you to 1/4" for MLV in a pretty unmanageable form. Lead is completely different.


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## bhammer

Rudeboy said:


> That's the .75 lb/ft² stuff that seems like a better candidate. I'll swing by my Lowe's on the way home from work and see if they have any. Where was it in the store?


Flooring section with all the underlayment. It was right next to real thin foam used for hardwood flooring. The kid working the department got to talking to me and was surprised we are even thinking about using it in a car. He thought I was kidding him at first.

Update/EDIT:
I'd call them first to see if they have it. I just got off the phone with Lowes and no other stores in the region have it. When he pulls it up by item number, it isn't showing up in his system anymore. He thinks these two boxes were returned at some point and put back on the shelf and not logged during the last inventory. He's holding it for me (pulled from teh shelf) and I'll pick up on Thursday.


----------



## jcollin76

Rudeboy said:


> Doubling the mass of a barrier will get you an additional 6 dB of attenuation - significant. That's in an ideal situation so you'll get somewhat less in a vehicle. You also have to consider that yo u aren't starting at zero, so the difference will be based on the net change. Still, I'd go for 2 lbs/ft². That would get you to 1/4" for MLV in a pretty unmanageable form. Lead is completely different.


Think you sir, that sounds perfect. Appreciate your help very much!


----------



## Overkll

I ordered the stuff from Homedepot and will be picking it up tomorrow. I'll post back tomorrow night and snap some pics.

Kerry


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

If this stuff was doubled, how much would it actually cover? Is it worth applying on just the doors of my 01 S10 blazer 4 door.


----------



## DiMora

bhammer said:


> Here's the link for it. They had 2 boxes at the Lowes down the street from me. Shop 1/4" x 8' x 4' Sound Barrier at Lowes.com
> 
> EDIT: If you can find it at your local store, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this. That would save me a bit on shipping I would assume. I would think that the MLV is the cost driver for shipping.


The Lowes stuff is this:

dB-4-Walls


----------



## bhammer

Yes but I think folks are looking for a local source. Also, db4 sells a residential version that is not as dense as the commercial version. Plus, some have a cloth backing depending on the version. 

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rudeboy

DiMora said:


> The Lowes stuff is this:
> 
> dB-4-Walls


That's probably a better choice since it's .75 lb/ft². The floor stuff is .5. I didn't feel like going into Lowes last night because it was packed beyond belief. I'll try on my way in this morning. Lowes has this listed at 1/4" thick. Double up and you're at 1/2" of what seems to be fairly rigid material before you add a decoupler.


----------



## DiMora

bhammer said:


> Yes but I think folks are looking for a local source. Also, db4 sells a residential version that is not as dense as the commercial version. Plus, some have a cloth backing depending on the version.
> 
> Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk


Is Lowes not a local source? It certainly is to me.


----------



## Rudeboy

Don't have it at my local Lowe's. May order some but it's easier to drop $50 or $75 on a whim when it's right in front of me. I'll probably try to get some decent sized samples before I do that.

If anybody who's buying these products want to have some actual MLV to compare them to, send me an address and I'll mail you a 6"X10" piece for evaluation.


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

Rudeboy said:


> Don't have it at my local Lowe's. May order some but it's easier to drop $50 or $75 on a whim when it's right in front of me. I'll probably try to get some decent sized samples before I do that.
> 
> If anybody who's buying these products want to have some actual MLV to compare them to, send me an address and I'll mail you a 6"X10" piece for evaluation.



I plan to buy some MLV in the future, it'd be nice to have a sample of that stuff.


----------



## Overkll

Ok. I have the db4looring from Home Depot.

1. The $74.97 is the 0.75 lb/ft2 stuff... pkg. was 88 lbs shipped.
2. It's been a long time since I've held regular MLV... 
3. Two layers, a felt like backing and the MLV. Easily separated.
4. 1/8" total thickness
5. MLV 1/16", felt 1/16"
6. Don't have an accurate scale around but felt weight is negligible, almost all in MLV

I can answer any questions you have about it. I'm out of town of the holidays but can do a comparison if Rudeboy could ship me some. I have a US address now so no more BS Canadian shipping costs!

I haven't posted pics in a while, I can shoot them to someone's email if you PM.


----------



## trojan fan

****....just break down and buy the real stuff.....:laugh:


----------



## Overkll

How do you know this isn't the real stuff at a fraction of the cost? 

For $75 I bought and will compare. I can actually just ship a piece to Rudeboy so he can compare. If it's useful, great, if not I'll find another use for it.

DIY means trying new things.

Thx


----------



## bhammer

DiMora said:


> Is Lowes not a local source? It certainly is to me.


Sorry, I wasn't clear on my handheld. Where I was going with it was that Lowes is not going to carry it anymore. I stopped by my store tonight, the guy gave me the two boxes and they couldn't check me out. They wouldn't even sell it to me when I showed them the cost on their website. The manager showed me that you can not even order from their site anymore. 

He's checking with a district manager in the morning to see if there is a way to put a temporary sku number on it to sell it.


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

bhammer said:


> Sorry, I wasn't clear on my handheld. Where I was going with it was that Lowes is not going to carry it anymore. I stopped by my store tonight, the guy gave me the two boxes and they couldn't check me out. They wouldn't even sell it to me when I showed them the cost on their website. The manager showed me that you can not even order from their site anymore.
> 
> He's checking with a district manager in the morning to see if there is a way to put a temporary sku number on it to sell it.



Bummer, hopefully you're able to take it home, they shouldn't have stuff on there shelfs if they cn't sell it... Goodluck


----------



## chrisfromalbany

i got my order in from home depot and it was 88 lbs as well.. pretty heavy stuff.. and there was almost no packing material but some plastic wrap around.. By time got to the house part of the plastic wrap was beaten off in one corners.. there is a bright white side and hard black plastic side..


----------



## Rudeboy

Overkll said:


> How do you know this isn't the real stuff at a fraction of the cost?
> 
> For $75 I bought and will compare. I can actually just ship a piece to Rudeboy so he can compare. If it's useful, great, if not I'll find another use for it.
> 
> DIY means trying new things.
> 
> Thx


PM responded to, thanks.

It can't be the real stuff if by that you mean the same stuff since it has a completely different composition. It could be a functional alternative and that would be useful.


----------



## Overkll

Sorry, functional alternative is what I meant. I don't mind paying for the good MLV, but it's always cool to try something different. I drive a smart car so it's not like I need much anyway . 

I'll send some to you today or Monday and let you be the judge. 

Thanks!


----------



## sooperxtool

From the Home Depot version pictures, it appears there might be a layer of felt type material attached to the back... Can anyone confirm? I already bought a half roll of 2lb MLV but I am wondering about putting a layer of this on the *outer* skin of the doors... and possibly some other places like the roof etc. that are a little more difficult to install the 1/4" 2lb stuff. I am also curious how flexible it is. The only way I can think to be able to get MLV inside the door is to roll it up, slide through the large access hole, and then unroll when it is inside the door. I don't think my heavier stuff would be cooperative enough. Especially at 15lbs for a 2.5x3' sheet:shocked2:


----------



## Rudeboy

sooperxtool said:


> From the Home Depot version pictures, it appears there might be a layer of felt type material attached to the back... Can anyone confirm? I already bought a half roll of 2lb MLV but I am wondering about putting a layer of this on the *outer* skin of the doors... and possibly some other places like the roof etc. that are a little more difficult to install the 1/4" 2lb stuff. I am also curious how flexible it is. The only way I can think to be able to get MLV inside the door is to roll it up, slide through the large access hole, and then unroll when it is inside the door. I don't think my heavier stuff would be cooperative enough. Especially at 15lbs for a 2.5x3' sheet:shocked2:


Still haven't received the sample of the Home Depot stuff from Overkll but I did receive a very large sample from my MLV manufacturer. It's definitely interesting stuff. It's quite a bit less flexible than MLV and much less limp. Limpness may be an issue. My rep warned me that nothing would stick to it and so far he's right. Vinyl cements don't work, several different contact cements and miscellaneous glues don't work. No tape or PSA I've tried work either. It's like Teflon against adhesives. I really wonder how well the fabric layer is bonded to the HD version. I'd also worry about painting it or using spackle like they suggest for the wall version.

I've found that it is almost impossible to get a barrier on the outer skin without removing the glass unless you have a VW, Mini, Mazda, or other car where most of the inner skin is removable. On a positive note, removing the glass, weatherstripping, regulator, frame, etc. and putting it all back makes me feel like I know what I'm doing


----------



## sooperxtool

Rudeboy said:


> I've found that it is almost impossible to get a barrier on the outer skin without removing the glass unless you have a VW, Mini, Mazda, or other car where most of the inner skin is removable. On a positive note, removing the glass, weatherstripping, regulator, frame, etc. and putting it all back makes me feel like I know what I'm doing


Hmm. Well, I do need to replace at least my driver side window... It is severely scratched from being rolled up and down against a dirty window seal I would guess. (It's been that way since I bought the truck) So maybe I could try getting a layer in when I replace the window. The only issue I would have is thickness, there is a support on the outer skin that is pretty close to the window in the rolled down position. I may just go with a layer on inner skin only. From what I understand, the 2lb. barrier should do a pretty good job by itself, no?


----------



## Rudeboy

sooperxtool said:


> Hmm. Well, I do need to replace at least my driver side window... It is severely scratched from being rolled up and down against a dirty window seal I would guess. (It's been that way since I bought the truck) So maybe I could try getting a layer in when I replace the window. The only issue I would have is thickness, there is a support on the outer skin that is pretty close to the window in the rolled down position. I may just go with a layer on inner skin only. From what I understand, the 2lb. barrier should do a pretty good job by itself, no?


Inner skin is really the ideal placement if you can do it. That puts noise entering through the front, rear, top and bottom of the door behind the barrier. It's best to add a decoupling layer to the barrier but the MLV alone can work pretty well.


----------



## Overkll

Rudeboy said:


> Still haven't received the sample of the Home Depot stuff from Overkll but I did receive a very large sample from my MLV manufacturer. It's definitely interesting stuff. It's quite a bit less flexible than MLV and much less limp. Limpness may be an issue. My rep warned me that nothing would stick to it and so far he's right. Vinyl cements don't work, several different contact cements and miscellaneous glues don't work. No tape or PSA I've tried work either. It's like Teflon against adhesives. I really wonder how well the fabric layer is bonded to the HD version. I'd also worry about painting it or using spackle like they suggest for the wall version.
> 
> I've found that it is almost impossible to get a barrier on the outer skin without removing the glass unless you have a VW, Mini, Mazda, or other car where most of the inner skin is removable. On a positive note, removing the glass, weatherstripping, regulator, frame, etc. and putting it all back makes me feel like I know what I'm doing


Sorry I'm cross-country and forgot to send out the sample (which I did bring). I'll overnight it on Monday. The fabric layer comes off easily enough in a single piece, so not an issue. 

Kerry


----------



## Rudeboy

Overkll said:


> Sorry I'm cross-country and forgot to send out the sample (which I did bring). I'll overnight it on Monday. The fabric layer comes off easily enough in a single piece, so not an issue.
> 
> Kerry


Kerry,

Don't go to any extra expense - I can wait and I'm sure everyone else can too. The fabric layer coming off easily seems to support my guy's concern about getting anything to stick to it.


----------



## Blorton

That's discouraging. I should hope this stuff wouldn't require mechanical attachment...


----------



## La Crosse

Observations seem to be inconsistent about this material so I’ll chime in regarding my observations so far.
First, I want to make it clear that I am referring to the “db 4looring” that HD sells. I have seen recent posts about wall materials and such.
Several days ago I received a roll of the HD material and have noted a few physical characteristics that may be of interest.

The shipping weight, mentioned in other posts is 88 lbs. I weighed the roll and it came in at 82 lb. (bathroom scale accuracy, +- 2 lbs)
I was interested in how much mass was comprised of the felt so attempted to “peel” it away. This is where one of the inconsistencies is noted. The felt is adhered to the “dense material” very well. So well that the felt is the weak link. A thin layer of adhesive and felt remain on the “dense material” after attempting to peel it away.
I used a crude balance beam to estimate mass composition. The felt is approximately 8% of the total material. That would put the mass of the dense material at 75 lbs for the roll or .75 lb / sq ft. 

I measured the thickness of the dense material at .070” and the total thickness of the composite at .300”. Compressing the material at 5 psi for 5 minutes resulted in compressing the composite to .180”. The felt “sprang” back to original thickness almost instantly when pressure was removed. Long term compression characteristics are not known.

Removing all of the felt is not possible or practical. In all attempts a .010”-.015” layer of felt/adhesive remained. If you wanted to use the dense material without the felt, the minimum total thickness would be .080”-.085”. Keep in mind it will be a tedious task to remove the felt. It will rip away but care must be taken to maximize the amount removed.

I agree with other posts that the “dense material” is difficult to adhere to. I tried various adhesive materials lying around and none worked, except for one. GOOP, found at any Hardware store, adheres reasonably well. I don’t intend to do any shear or pull tests. What I observed is good enough for me. One note is that it would be impractical to coat the entire surface with GOOP. You would have to “spot” adhere if you intended to bond with CCF.

This material is stiffer than the available MLV’s. It is designed as a wood floor underlayment after all where no contours need to be considered. Installation in a vehicle will be more difficult.

So, what are the possibilities? It depends on vehicle and area of vehicle.
1)	Use as is without CCF. The decoupler (felt) wont be as good as CCF but maybe good enough. By the way, many adhesive are compatible with felt if you have the need to attach to vertical services or other. 
2)	Rip off felt and adhere that side to CCF. Whatever will adhere to CCF will adhere to felt remaining on dense material.
3)	Use with CCF if space permits. The felt may compress enough to be a decoupler against the interior trim.
4)	Double up on floors at 1.5 lbs/sq ft. Rip felt off one or both layers to keep total thickness under control.
5)	Your call.

Last comment. I have no illusions about this material being a direct substitute for commercially available MLV’s, CCF’s, and such. DB-4flooring will not attenuate as well or install as easy as materials designed specifically for vehicles. Companies in this business have spent years developing materials and processes that will provide known results if you follow their instructions. DB-4looring looks intriguing because a 100 sq ft can be dropped at your door for barely more than just the shipping costs of regular MLV. I’m always looking at price/performance trades. I can’t comment on the “pain in the ass factor” until I attempt to install. I’ve got a 100 sq ft now so guess what; I’m gonna use it. 

Good Luck. I hope this was helpful.


----------



## Overkll

thanks for the review. I agree on all points you made. The felt I removed was only from a small piece, so not sure about trying to remove it all. However, having a minimal layer left should be non-issue I believe? Especially if adhering since the felt could be glued down then? JMHO

I am heading back home tomorrow and will be using this in my car. I will post pics and give my impressions. I am using it with 1/8" neoprene from the foamfactory.com.

For the price I believe it is worthwhile to try out. 

Kerry


----------



## NRA4ever

I tried a butyl rubber foil backed home window wrap in my F250 doors & the cab of my Ranger. Its about 1/8 thick by 6 inches wide. It comes in a 200 ft roll for $20. It seems to do a good job in the F250. I put it on the outside & inner skins. It sealed the door well. I don't have the brand name but I hope to buy some soon. I'll post it when I do. It works & looks like Dynamat. Its so sticky you have trouble placing it inside the door.


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## adrenalinejunkie

NRA4ever said:


> I tried a butyl rubber foil backed home window wrap in my F250 doors & the cab of my Ranger. Its about 1/8 thick by 6 inches wide. It comes in a 200 ft roll for $20. It seems to do a good job in the F250. I put it on the outside & inner skins. It sealed the door well. I don't have the brand name but I hope to buy some soon. I'll post it when I do. It works & looks like Dynamat. Its so sticky you have trouble placing it inside the door.



Where can we find this stuff you speak of? PM me with details?  Thanks


----------



## mopar

I believe i know what it is. I bought a 9"x33' they also had 6"x25. It is called protecta wrap. I just did 1 door inner and outer today with it. My skins now only have a dull thud when you hit them. I thought everyone would laugh at me about doing this as im a newbie trying to cheap out on deadening process.

No one has really thrown the info out there yet as to whether this db 4looring or the db3 wall stuff is an acceptable solution to mlv. If it works ok then i will get some as well. Also it was mentioned in here about ccf as blackjack a namebrand. I looked at some of these but didnt notice name brands or anything. I looked at the type of foam that goes under the laminate crap flooring. Are all of them closed cell? they seem to be open cell to me as you can see right through them.

Very interested guys want to hear more about the mlv stuff


----------



## mopar

meant 6"x50 above. The protecta wrap isnt a foiled backing, but i noticed some other stuff there tonight called quick roof that is butyl rubber with foil backing that comes in the 6"x50' that may have been better than what i used but oh well.

I bought some of that blackjack stuff as well.

Can anyone tell me if the ccf does anything other than decouple? I thought the decoupler was supposed to be an absorber as well.


----------



## adrenalinejunkie

mopar said:


> meant 6"x50 above. The protecta wrap isnt a foiled backing, but i noticed some other stuff there tonight called quick roof that is butyl rubber with foil backing that comes in the 6"x50' that may have been better than what i used but oh well.
> 
> I bought some of that blackjack stuff as well.
> 
> Can anyone tell me if the ccf does anything other than decouple? I thought the decoupler was supposed to be an absorber as well.



CCF is suppose to help a bit with the higher frequencies.
Not sure if you've run into this, but here ya' go, hope it helps. 
Sound Deadener Showdown - Your Source for Sound Deadening Products and Information


----------



## mopar

thanks, yes i have read that i missed that point at the top of the page. It seems other places show more importance in the role of the ccf, but all is well he seems to be the leading source for this forum for sound solutions.

What happens to these threads anyways? I have been doing alot of reading on this forum from topics past to this one. Alot of info is thrown around and then the thread dies without any real closure for solutions/reviews or whatever. It happens all the time with speaker ?'s. The poster buys something and the thread dies without them ever saying crap about it. I was happy to see this thread was still new after i searched for mlv product alternatives.


----------



## Rudeboy

CCF really isn't great high frequency absorption either - it's useful to think of it as a mechanical rather than an acoustical material. It keeps things from touching each other.


----------



## mopar

ok so right now im focusing my attention on my doors and the rear bottom of the cab in my reg cab truck. I may do something with the floor later, but if i dampen the roof you're saying there isnt any point in putting ccf up there unless its rattling. I really dont want to put mlv on the ceiling. I have the heavy rubber floor matt so that is probably going to take the place of the mlv there


----------



## Rudeboy

mopar said:


> ok so right now im focusing my attention on my doors and the rear bottom of the cab in my reg cab truck. I may do something with the floor later, but if i dampen the roof you're saying there isnt any point in putting ccf up there unless its rattling. I really dont want to put mlv on the ceiling. I have the heavy rubber floor matt so that is probably going to take the place of the mlv there


There's not much to be gained from applying MLV to a roof, unless you're trying to make it harder to hear your music from outside the vehicle. Barriers primarily block sound coming at the vehicle in a straight line and there aren't many sources directly overhead.

You absolutely want to add vibration damper to the roof in all but luxury cars. It's a large, resonant panel directly over your head. I like to take advantage of the space between the headliner and roof to add absorbent material. It's also a great place for thermal insulation. CCF can be a good thermal insulator but most acoustical absorbers should have pretty good insulating properties as well.


----------



## ecbmxer

Is there any use in putting MLV over the front and rear wheel well areas and spare tire area (notoriously noisy in subaru hatchbacks), but not under the rest of the floor area? I notice most of the road noise in those areas specifically.


----------



## Rudeboy

ecbmxer said:


> Is there any use in putting MLV over the front and rear wheel well areas and spare tire area (notoriously noisy in subaru hatchbacks), but not under the rest of the floor area? I notice most of the road noise in those areas specifically.


It's hard to predict exactly how much impact treatments like that will have. The two critical things to consider are that sound will bend around obstacles and tire noise starts at the contact patch with the road and radiates out from there. It's possible that you'll catch enough of the sound to make a difference or that it won't make any audible difference at all.


----------



## mopar

thanks rudeboy

I was saying to dampen the roof but not use mlv up there. THat egg crate mattress topper is a decent absorber isnt it. I just have that blackjack subfloor stuff for ccf dont know how much it will do


----------



## Neeoo

mopar said:


> thanks rudeboy
> 
> I was saying to dampen the roof but not use mlv up there. THat egg crate mattress topper is a decent absorber isnt it. I just have that blackjack subfloor stuff for ccf dont know how much it will do


I would think that an easy way to test the black jack out is to lay some of it over a speaker that is playing some music you're familiar with and see if any of the sounds are missing. This may not be a very scientific approach but...


----------



## Rudeboy

mopar said:


> thanks rudeboy
> 
> I was saying to dampen the roof but not use mlv up there. THat egg crate mattress topper is a decent absorber isnt it. I just have that blackjack subfloor stuff for ccf dont know how much it will do


Not sure what mattress toppers are made of.


----------



## mopar

its some type of foam.

I will try the non scientific approach sounds good. I can try it doubled up too


----------



## hilander999

Mattress toppers are made from open cell foam that will absorb water and moisture, and will mold at some point no matter how you install it in a vehicle due to the fact that cars/trucks are not moisture controlled environments.

If a foam material absorbs water like a sponge, do not use it in a car.


----------



## mopar

yet another good point thanks alot guys


----------



## mopar

not having any luck finding mlv in my area, but i bought some ballistic damper to replace the window crap i used.

I have some industrial conveyer belt at my rents house. This stuff is at least 3/16th thick and dense. Its not soft and horribly flexible, but im considering trying it out until i locate some mlv or having money to have it shipped. I got this belt 11 years ago they had some softer stuff that would have probably been perfectly suited for this. Hindsight is 20 20 though


----------



## MDubYa

Old thread but worth a shout out...If you go to lowes, there is a roll of stuff for $75 that goes on the garage floor...this stuff is 1/8" thick and weighs a ton...its a pvc/rubber mixture. I want to say it was 4'x6'. It worked really well...the only issue is that I had to mount it with 3 sheet metal screws at the top and let it hang down...I wish I could find it online to show you, but in the mean time I'll keep looking


----------



## MDubYa

This might work...

Sears: Online department store featuring appliances, tools, fitness equipment and more

1/4" thick though


----------



## MDubYa

This may be it!

Shop Amorim Rubber 4' x 10' Mat Flooring (Color: Black) at Lowes.com - 5

came in roll at Lowes


----------



## mopar

If you had to use fasteners into the sheet metal doesnt this take away some of the effect of the decoupler? ccf

That looks like it may work to me. I have been looking for another flexible substance made of minerals. Rubber really doesnt have to many minerals in it, its all synthetic now. Hard to tell if it work work as well as mlv/lead


----------



## Neeoo

MDubYa said:


> Old thread but worth a shout out...If you go to lowes, there is a roll of stuff for $75 that goes on the garage floor...this stuff is 1/8" thick and weighs a ton...its a pvc/rubber mixture. I want to say it was 4'x6'. It worked really well...the only issue is that I had to mount it with 3 sheet metal screws at the top and let it hang down...I wish I could find it online to show you, but in the mean time I'll keep looking


At that price, why not just get the real thing? Sound Deadener Showdown has a method for hanging CCF+MLV that requires no screws.


----------



## MDubYa

mopar said:


> If you had to use fasteners into the sheet metal doesnt this take away some of the effect of the decoupler? ccf


Maybe a little, but I thought the whole goal of the mlv is to block the noise from coming in. So if you use cld tiles on the metal to stop vibrations, then mlv to keep noise out, then ccf to absorb the sound then you've done as much as you can...this is an honest question, do you think the screws really could have a large effect? Thanks!


----------



## mopar

pretty much what i was thinking. Those anti fatigue mats are just as expensive as mlv and dont have the same content.

After doing some searching on Home theatre applications ive found 1/2 mdf board has a similar stc rating of 28 as mlv 29. It certainly is a dense barrier. I have some 1/4 stuff here and put it over my surround sound speaker and blocked almost all sound. I know this will not work for almost everyone on here because its not flexible. My truck door skins are all but flat i think i can do something with mdf on my doors and back of cab. Considering it, thoughts?


----------



## mopar

mdubya i dont know to much about this stuff yet, but the ccf isnt for absorbing sound really. People here say it is only a decoupler which separates the mlv from the sheetmetal vibs. The ccf may absorb some really high frequencies but at the 1/8" thickness probably not even noticable. I have no idea if you fasteners have much affect on the process it was just an idea that ran through my head when i saw your post


----------



## Neeoo

MDubYa said:


> Maybe a little, but I thought the whole goal of the mlv is to block the noise from coming in. So if you use cld tiles on the metal to stop vibrations, then mlv to keep noise out, then ccf to absorb the sound then you've done as much as you can...this is an honest question, do you think the screws really could have a large effect? Thanks!


It sounds like you are going backwards. The CCF is supposed to go between the MLV and the source of the sound that you wish to block. (I understand using it on both sides though) If you are screwing your MLV directly to the vibration dampened source of noise, the MLV could serve to actually transmit that lowered vibration. That's why they recommend CCF. The CCF helps to separate the MLV from the source of sound/vibration so that all it does it isolate one side from the sound on the other.


----------



## MDubYa

Neeoo said:


> It sounds like you are going backwards. The CCF is supposed to go between the MLV and the source of the sound that you wish to block. (I understand using it on both sides though) If you are screwing your MLV directly to the vibration dampened source of noise, the MLV could serve to actually transmit that lowered vibration. That's why they recommend CCF. The CCF helps to separate the MLV from the source of sound/vibration so that all it does it isolate one side from the sound on the other.


Neeoo You are correct...I had them backwards... My bad! :stupid: I do have the ccf on both sides so I'm good there!

This is from Second Skins website about ccf...

Overkill and Overkill Pro are our closed cell foam decouplers. When used in conjunction with our CLD sound deadener mats, these sound deadening foams will accomplish several goals. When applied to the back of your cars upholstery, Overkill will kill automotive rattles and squeaks from your cars trim helping to make the ride feel more solid. When used under our Luxury Liner MLV, the sound deadening foam acts as a decoupler, allowing the mass loaded vinyl to provide the best sound deadening results possible.

Second Skin Overkill Closed Cell Foam - CCF

Look what can happen when I read...:bulb: learned a lot from this site...add another thing to the list!


----------



## Neeoo

MDubYa said:


> Neeoo You are correct...I had them backwards... My bad! :stupid:
> 
> This is from Second Skins website about ccf...
> 
> Overkill and Overkill Pro are our closed cell foam decouplers. When used in conjunction with our CLD sound deadener mats, these sound deadening foams will accomplish several goals. When applied to the back of your cars upholstery, Overkill will kill automotive rattles and squeaks from your cars trim helping to make the ride feel more solid. When used under our Luxury Liner MLV, the sound deadening foam acts as a decoupler, allowing the mass loaded vinyl to provide the best sound deadening results possible.
> 
> Second Skin Overkill Closed Cell Foam - CCF
> 
> Look what can happen when I read...:bulb:


Hah! No harm. If it helps you any, I just really researched the mess out of this topic and decided to go with Sound Deadener Showdowns CCF + MLV. I actually emailed Don there to confirm a few things and to ask a couple of questions. He was really cool and patiently responded to my questions and even offered some really helpful suggestions on how to tackle a couple problem areas in my car. Its really not as expensive as everyone makes it out to be. Sit down and figure out the square footage of your vehicle and I think it will surprise you how cheap it is to actually do it correctly.


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## Rudeboy

A few rigid mounting points aren't likely to transmit much energy into a limp barrier like MLV but they could into something rigid like MDF. That and the resonant frequency of stiff versus limp materials of the same thickness and density are the reasons you really want a limp barrier. 

CCF shouldn't be thought of as an absorber - it's strictly there to isolate the barrier layer form sheet metal, trim panels from barrier layers or sheet metal, etc. It's a gasket.


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## MDubYa

> It's a gasket.


Thats a perfect analogy!


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## mopar

Well i ended up jumping on some rubber matting. I found some at Tractor Supply that was 5 bucks a foot by 4ft wide. So just over a dollar a sq ft, but the texture weight and flexibility is what sold me. Im guessing my 4' by 6' piece weighed 25 -30 lbs it wasnt the easiest to work with when i put it on my 1 door so far, but manageable. I was on hold on deadening until i got mlv. I saw this and impulsively bought it. I havent driven the truck since install but with only 1 door done out of the whole vehicle i dont know if it would be noticeable to begin with. I did notice my little 5.25 speaker cone actually moving for once. I do believe the cavity is much better than it ever was for midbass


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## supermotofan

Good info here, thanks.


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## HondAudio

I did some selective deadening of the interior metal door skins on my xB this weekend. I took off the door panel, removed the vapor barrier and did my best to remove the black goo holding it on, then applied 1.5 square feet to each front door on the interior metal skin. The exterior skins will be done soon, and will be easy to access now that the vapor barriers have been removed.

I'll post pictures later... I had previously cut the deadener [Stinger RoadKill Pro] into 6"x12" sections, and I've used 3 per door so far. I further cut the pieces down into 6"x6" sections, 6"x3" sections, and 3"x3" pieces. I knocked applied it to the largest, flattest areas of the interior skins, and I think there's already been an audible effect. I even did both sides of the metal immediately next to the 6.5" OEM speakers, and sealed up a hole in the process.

Ah, here we go:


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## 67 Chevelle

Overkll said:


> thanks for the review. I agree on all points you made. The felt I removed was only from a small piece, so not sure about trying to remove it all. However, having a minimal layer left should be non-issue I believe? Especially if adhering since the felt could be glued down then? JMHO
> 
> I am heading back home tomorrow and will be using this in my car. I will post pics and give my impressions. I am using it with 1/8" neoprene from the foamfactory.com.
> 
> For the price I believe it is worthwhile to try out.
> 
> Kerry


Sorry to resurrect this thread but wondering what your impressions of the HD product were after install as I didn't see anything additional from you on this topic.


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## spl152db

get this instead of all that stuff. MLV With Foam


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## MDubYa

spl152db said:


> get this instead of all that stuff. MLV With Foam


Sweet mother how thick is that?? 1/4 for the foam and then ? for the vinyl? Jeez that could be 3/8 to 1/2 an inch. Not sure I could fit that in my doors, but the floor on the other hand it could work!


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## spl152db

oh the mlv is 1/8th and the ccf is 1/4. you end up at 3/8's total thickness.


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## MDubYa

spl152db said:


> oh the mlv is 1/8th and the ccf is 1/4. you end up at 3/8's total thickness.


Thanks, need to look into this!


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## adrenalinejunkie

Has anyone tried the Gorilla tape to hold the MLV on the door?


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## Rudeboy

adrenalinejunkie said:


> Has anyone tried the Gorilla tape to hold the MLV on the door?


MLV or EVA?


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## thomasluke

adrenalinejunkie said:


> Has anyone tried the Gorilla tape to hold the MLV on the door?


It's not gonna hold it to the side of a door but it will hold it in place on small inclines and flat surfaces.


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## phampau

just read through the whole tread, so what is the general consensus on the Home depot mlv?


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## Overkll

I've yet to install mine. MS8 just came in so will be installing soon.

I sent a sample to Rudeboy for his review. Maybe he could provide his impressions?


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## adrenalinejunkie

I've been thinking of picking some up from Don or get some from HD if it's a great alternative since i'd save on shipping..
Rudeboy's thought's would be nice.


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## Rudeboy

Overkll said:


> I've yet to install mine. MS8 just came in so will be installing soon.
> 
> I sent a sample to Rudeboy for his review. Maybe he could provide his impressions?


Sorry about that - thought I had. Remember now that I wrote it up and lost it to a computer lockup.

I compared the sample you sent to a 1 lb/ft² piece of virgin EVA barrier and a same sized piece of MLV. Both EVA barriers are much stiffer than traditional MLV. They can be softened with heat which will help for curves in one direction. MLV can't be forced to follow compound curves either but that can be compensated for by combining pieces.

That brings us to the biggest problem I'd have using either EVA material - I can't find any adhesive that will stick to it. The Home Depot, asphalt impregnated, material held slightly more with a few tapes, probably because of the asphalt content. There's a pressed fiber layer on the Home Depot stuff but I don't see any adhesive. I suspect it is added while the EVA/asphalt is molten and being extruded. Gorilla Tape will stick to all three - as long as there is no shear strain at all and it isn't carrying much weight. Torque it at all and it peels right off.

One other potential issue with Home Depot's product is the asphalt content itself. At 180°F it starts to melt out. Probably not an issue in Canada but an easy temperature to achieve in the door of a vehicle parked in the sum below the Mason-Dixon line.

So, lack of flexibility and incompatibility with adhesives are the biggest problems. Definitely an issue for seams and compound curves. You could use it in the floor pans and overlap adjoining sections by an inch or so. You could rivet it to door inner skins, but that's a really hard way to get a tight fit. Definitely better suited for architectural use where large flat areas and mechanical fasteners are the norm.


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## adrenalinejunkie

Rudeboy said:


> Sorry about that - thought I had. Remember now that I wrote it up and lost it to a computer lockup.
> 
> I compared the sample you sent to a 1 lb/ft² piece of virgin EVA barrier and a same sized piece of MLV. Both EVA barriers are much stiffer than traditional MLV. They can be softened with heat which will help for curves in one direction. MLV can't be forced to follow compound curves either but that can be compensated for by combining pieces.
> 
> That brings us to the biggest problem I'd have using either EVA material - I can't find any adhesive that will stick to it. The Home Depot, asphalt impregnated, material held slightly more with a few tapes, probably because of the asphalt content. There's a pressed fiber layer on the Home Depot stuff but I don't see any adhesive. I suspect it is added while the EVA/asphalt is molten and being extruded. Gorilla Tape will stick to all three - as long as there is no shear strain at all and it isn't carrying much weight. Torque it at all and it peels right off.
> 
> One other potential issue with Home Depot's product is the asphalt content itself. At 180°F it starts to melt out. Probably not an issue in Canada but an easy temperature to achieve in the door of a vehicle parked in the sum below the Mason-Dixon line.
> 
> So, lack of flexibility and incompatibility with adhesives are the biggest problems. Definitely an issue for seams and compound curves. You could use it in the floor pans and overlap adjoining sections by an inch or so. You could rivet it to door inner skins, but that's a really hard way to get a tight fit. Definitely better suited for architectural use where large flat areas and mechanical fasteners are the norm.



Thanks for that. HD stuff may not be the best since we get up to 114 degrees in my area in summer.


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## Rudeboy

adrenalinejunkie said:


> Thanks for that. HD stuff may not be the best since we get up to 114 degrees in my area in summer.


I really don't know how bad that might be. Molten asphalt is never a good thing to have in a vehicle but I didn't test for long enough to have a real clear idea of how that will play out. The stiffness and incompatibility with adhesives are greater immediate concerns - if you can't get it into the vehicle effectively, what happens in a year isn't the biggest concern  Remember too that the stiffer the material the higher its resonant frequency and the more likely it is to transmit sound.

If you're near San Diego may want to look at soundproofing.org. I can say they used to sell a decent MLV at a good price. I've stopped specifically recommending other sources because constant price increases have meant that what's being sold changes more quickly than I can stay on top of it. My general rule of thumb is that if the MLV isn't textured on either side, doesn't have a strong odor, is decently flexible and not super easy to tear, it's probably good enough to use in a vehicle. It's really only possible to determine that by handling the material. I've had customers order super cheap MLV on eBay and ended up having to tear it out of the car because of the odor.


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## adrenalinejunkie

Rudeboy said:


> I really don't know how bad that might be. Molten asphalt is never a good thing to have in a vehicle but I didn't test for long enough to have a real clear idea of how that will play out. The stiffness and incompatibility with adhesives are greater immediate concerns - if you can't get it into the vehicle effectively, what happens in a year isn't the biggest concern  Remember too that the stiffer the material the higher its resonant frequency and the more likely it is to transmit sound.
> 
> If you're near San Diego may want to look at soundproofing.org. I can say they used to sell a decent MLV at a good price. I've stopped specifically recommending other sources because constant price increases have meant that what's being sold changes more quickly than I can stay on top of it. My general rule of thumb is that if the MLV isn't textured on either side, doesn't have a strong odor, is decently flexible and not super easy to tear, it's probably good enough to use in a vehicle. It's really only possible to determine that by handling the material. I've had customers order super cheap MLV on eBay and ended up having to tear it out of the car because of the odor.


I'll keep them in mind for when i'm ready to invest on MLV. Thanks


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## Overkll

Rudeboy said:


> Sorry about that - thought I had. Remember now that I wrote it up and lost it to a computer lockup.


Hey, no problem! Thanks for the review.

I am planning on using the material only on the floor, given the stiffness, so fastening isn't an issue. I did plan on using multiple pieces. 

Did you test the material @ 180F? Just wondering if you could smell off-gassing or not. I may test it out in my lab out of curiosity. 

Kerry


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## Rudeboy

Overkll said:


> Hey, no problem! Thanks for the review.
> 
> I am planning on using the material only on the floor, given the stiffness, so fastening isn't an issue. I did plan on using multiple pieces.
> 
> Did you test the material @ 180F? Just wondering if you could smell off-gassing or not. I may test it out in my lab out of curiosity.
> 
> Kerry


I think I have photos somewhere - not sure. I gave it an hour or two at 180°F. Definite odor and some release of melted asphalt. Certainly nothing like heating Peel & Seal to 180°F. I'd be really interested to see what you come up with.


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## HondAudio

pionkej said:


> Why not hit it with some silicone? It should stop the rattle, not be affected by the heat, and be easily removable with a razor blade and finesse.


Sorry to threadjack, but would silicone also make an effective semi-permanent "glue" to adhere some plexiglass or metal sheets to inner door skins to seal them up? I say "semi-permanent" so the sheet material could be popped off in case something in the door needed to be serviced, and then the silicone could be peeled off and a new bead applied...?


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## Rudeboy

HondAudio said:


> Sorry to threadjack, but would silicone also make an effective semi-permanent "glue" to adhere some plexiglass or metal sheets to inner door skins to seal them up? I say "semi-permanent" so the sheet material could be popped off in case something in the door needed to be serviced, and then the silicone could be peeled off and a new bead applied...?


The issue I've had with silicone for this application is that you can never get it off the sheet metal without also removing the paint. That means that nothing other than more silicone will ever stick to that spot again. Probably not an issue for most people but I've had the problem more than once.


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## emilime75

Rudeboy said:


> That brings us to the biggest problem I'd have using either EVA material - I can't find any adhesive that will stick to it. The Home Depot, asphalt impregnated, material held slightly more with a few tapes, probably because of the asphalt content. There's a pressed fiber layer on the Home Depot stuff but I don't see any adhesive. I suspect it is added while the EVA/asphalt is molten and being extruded. Gorilla Tape will stick to all three - as long as there is no shear strain at all and it isn't carrying much weight. Torque it at all and it peels right off.


Is it not possible to glue the CCF directly to the felt side of the HD stuff? 

How is CCF/MLV typically installed on a car door? Is it glued directly to it over the entire surface, or draped and only attached at the top somehow?


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## Rudeboy

emilime75 said:


> Is it not possible to glue the CCF directly to the felt side of the HD stuff?
> 
> How is CCF/MLV typically installed on a car door? Is it glued directly to it over the entire surface, or draped and only attached at the top somehow?


You can glue almost anything to the felt side. The problem is combining pieces of the barrier material in a way that is strong and sound tight. The difficulty with any of these materials is that they can be bent in only one direction at a time. Covering a compound curve requires combining multiple pieces like this:









Doing this without leaving any gaps with something that can only be bonded on one side is a puzzle.

I use Velcro strips with a high temperature, vinyl compatible PSA to secure CCF and MLV to vertical surfaces and others places where they'd shift around. I really don't like to glue anything to the car that I don't need to. 

Here's the basic technique:









Here's how I try to position MLV in a door:


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## emilime75

My text in BLUE



Rudeboy said:


> You can glue almost anything to the felt side. The problem is combining pieces of the barrier material in a way that is strong and sound tight. The difficulty with any of these materials is that they can be bent in only one direction at a time. Covering a compound curve requires combining multiple pieces like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK. I understand now. If it was a flat surface where one piece of the HD stuff would cover it isn't a problem but, as soon as you introduce some compnd shapes it becomes an issue, and a bad one. Thanks.
> 
> 
> I use Velcro strips with a high temperature, vinyl compatible PSA to secure CCF and MLV to vertical surfaces and others places where they'd shift around. I really don't like to glue anything to the car that I don't need to.
> 
> Here's the basic technique:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's how I try to position MLV in a door:


So you attach one side of the velcro to the door, and the opposite side to the MLV. Cut a hole in the CCF so the 2 sides of the velcro can grip? Is that right? Do you do this just at the top and let the MLV/CCF drape down, or does it need to be attached in several places through out the panel?


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## Overkll

Rudeboy said:


> Doing this without leaving any gaps with something that can only be bonded on one side is a puzzle.


First felt down, second felt up, third felt down, fourth felt up. Not so nice!

Or seal from the felt side like you would installing carpeting. Butt seams and tape glue from the backside. 

Seems like a lot of work though!

Kerry


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## Rudeboy

emilime75 said:


> My text in BLUE
> 
> 
> 
> So you attach one side of the velcro to the door, and the opposite side to the MLV. Cut a hole in the CCF so the 2 sides of the velcro can grip? Is that right? Do you do this just at the top and let the MLV/CCF drape down, or does it need to be attached in several places through out the panel?


I generally anchor at 3 points across the top and the bottom corners. That door in that photo isn't finished either. I'd put enough CCF on the side of the MLV facing the trim panel to decouple the MLV and to compress slightly when the trim panel is put back on, just enough to press the CCF/MLV/CC sandwich against the inner skin.


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## Rudeboy

Overkll said:


> First felt down, second felt up, third felt down, fourth felt up. Not so nice!
> 
> Or seal from the felt side like you would installing carpeting. Butt seams and tape glue from the backside.
> 
> Seems like a lot of work though!
> 
> Kerry


It's a lot of work doing it with a flexible material that can be bonded on either side  Butting seams is really tough. Any gaps at the seams are functional gaps in the barrier. Even if you can cut it so that the seams meet perfectly, you need to be sure they won't move with time or as you reassemble the vehicle. You really want to overlap the seams.

I would expect improvement by laying this in the floor pans and running it as far up the firewall as you can, similar to adding heavy rubber, "all weather" type floor mats. Being able to use heat to facilitate bends in one direction is useful.


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## Rudeboy

adrenalinejunkie said:


> Has anyone tried the Gorilla tape to hold the MLV on the door?


I've done a week long test on this question. On first contact, Gorilla Tape barely sticks at all to MLV, virgin EVA or the Home Depot EVA/Asphalt. Much weaker for EVA than MLV. The bond gets much stronger over time on the EVA variants but not MLV. 

What I found most interesting is that if there is any tension at all on the tape it will gradually peel itself off of clean sheet metal. I guess that's fine for duct tape since you are really just sealing a gap between fixed surfaces.


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## Pitmaster

Some really great info, thank you Don


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## HondAudio

So... flexibility, "attachability", and melting and offgassing issues aside:

Does this product block noise as effectively as "pure" MLV?


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## Rudeboy

HondAudio said:


> So... flexibility, "attachability", and melting and offgassing issues aside:
> 
> Does this product block noise as effectively as "pure" MLV?


The sample Overkll sent me weighed 1 lb/ft². That means the only reason it wouldn't work as well as MLV is that it is stiffer. Stiffer means a higher resonant frequency. To the extent that the resonant frequency enters the audible range, the less effective it will be. That's going to vary all over the place with size and geometry. It should also be less of an issue under a carpet than in some other applications.

Basically: maybe, maybe not


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