# Paying MSRP for anything car audio related.



## GRIFTER9931 (Aug 30, 2009)

I have read so many threads bashing a company for having an expensive product. Whether it be a Sub or an Amp or speaker etc...
I can't remember the last time I paid mrsp for anything, and all my equipment is purchased from many authorized dealers. 

Just look at all the threads that specifically targeted @ JL bashing for example. I don't get it, i know they (JL) have some of the more pricey gear on the market. It's up to the consumer to make an educated financial decision based on what he/she can afford, and really not be lazy and actually go out and do the research on the products for them selves.

Just a casual Observation, I had when I was researching components for my system.


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## slvrtsunami (Apr 18, 2008)

well, breakdown what MSRP stands for! it is the SUGGESTED retail price. The dealers set their own pricing. Unfortunately for them, with the influx of online purchasing and the willingness of manufactureres to have everybody carry their product, good or bad products, all they are interested in is moving boxes. For the consumer this is good as it allows them to purchase equipment for a lower price. For the dealer, they must differentiate themselves somehow to either pass for charging more or convince the consumer they are the best; or something to that effect.


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## GRIFTER9931 (Aug 30, 2009)

slvrtsunami said:


> well, breakdown what MSRP stands for! it is the SUGGESTED retail price. The dealers set their own pricing. Unfortunately for them, with the influx of online purchasing and the willingness of manufactureres to have everybody carry their product, good or bad products, all they are interested in is moving boxes. For the consumer this is good as it allows them to purchase equipment for a lower price. For the dealer, they must differentiate themselves somehow to either pass for charging more or convince the consumer they are the best; or something to that effect.


Either way it does not matter, No one really pays MSRP anymore. 
most of the bashing that goes on clearly states MSRP some where in the threads I have read. And i have read lots of them.
Its a myth that should be dispelled.


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

Dispel this IconTV & CriticalMASS Online Catalog - ULA-A2x700


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## PaulD (Nov 16, 2006)

you can't dispel stupidity


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

One of my local shops is famous for charging ABOVE MSRP! In 2008 they wanted $1,500 UP FRONT for a JL Audio Stealthbox for my Mustang and MSRP was $1,050. I told them that Crutchfield had it for $950 shipped and the sales associate said "Well order it from Crutchfield then" and proceeded to whine and moan about how the internet was killing their business. I tried to explain to him that charging me $450 above MSRP was BS, and his excuse was "we don't make as high of a profit on special order items". 

This past Saturday, I called one of the sister companies of that local shop and they wanted to charge me $60 for a  PAC SOEM-T. While it would have been nice to have one past weekend, I wasn't going to pay $60 for something with a MSRP of $29.95. When I asked the manager "Why so much" his reply was "That is what we are told to sell them for." Edit: I ordered one for $22 shipped!


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

How is this appropriate for this section of the forum?


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

what is a myth here?


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## GRIFTER9931 (Aug 30, 2009)

el_chupo_ said:


> what is a myth here?


That folks still pay MSRP for anything car audio related.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

lots of people do, especially at the majority of retail stores. And A LOT of sales happen at retail stores... Just because you (or the majority of people online) dont does not make it a myth.


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## GRIFTER9931 (Aug 30, 2009)

el_chupo_ said:


> lots of people do, especially at the majority of retail stores. And A LOT of sales happen at retail stores... Just because you (or the majority of people online) dont does not make it a myth.


I never said i bought any of my equipment on the internet. 
I support my local audio/installer. I know that it is not always the case but i have a good relationship with the guys i go to and i get treated accordingly.
If you look @ the threads and they are many, about JL and the outrageous prices. Almost always, some one is quoting MSRP somewhere in the thread. 

And since the advent of online purchasing.
A consumer with a internet connection & a credit card can purchase online or can go to your locale car audio shop and work out some type of deal.
So there is a myth of buying MSRP and its just not a valid statement any longer.

Since there is another avenue to get the same product with the same warranty. The back and forth about purchasing any particular item @ MSRP is pretty much a MYTH.


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## MyXsPtLk (Sep 6, 2009)

Long time ago MSRP probably meant something, but nowadays consumers have it in their head that to gauge a 'realistic' price, it would be maybe 5-10% lower than MSRP, give or take.

If a manufacturer set their MSRP at a proper, real-world, what-someone-should-be-paying-for-this-<insert product> price, the buyers would just want 10% off that because it's just what they've grown accustomed to and I think manufacturer's realise that.


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

The majority of a product's price (be it anything out there expensive) is usually R&D. Having the laboratories that crunch the numbers, design and test, engineers looking at speakers from every angle to determine the best way to incorporate technology into them and keep them cool, vented, accurate.......etc.. 

If you want to do the leg work, you can do it and crunch enough numbers to figure out what you want to use, but you are still at a disadvantage of having to use what is available rather than being able to design a speaker based on all your observations which is where the company wins. They put out a superior product that you have to compromise on when you DIY because even if you match 80% of the characteristics of the large brand item, you still can't put it all together in one package. You may need a full active stage just to do what some 2-way setups will do that were properly designed. 

PS- the context of MSRP is being grossly misused in this thread.


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## cgarnes (Apr 1, 2008)

I own a store in MS, and we don't list anything in the store at MSRP. However, as an authorized dealer we are required to price everything at what is called MAP price (Minimum Advertised Price). We sell most everything we sell at MAP price, and we are successful at making customers understand what the extra money is for when they buy from us versus eBay or any other website. If the internet has done anything positive it has FORCED brick and mortar stores (like me) to provide superior customer service to people that actually walk through our doors. I will say that if a business is willing to provide the service that they should have been providing all along they will be successful selling at a reasonable profit point.


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## GRIFTER9931 (Aug 30, 2009)

cgarnes said:


> I own a store in MS, and we don't list anything in the store at MSRP. However, as an authorized dealer we are required to price everything at what is called MAP price (Minimum Advertised Price). We sell most everything we sell at MAP price, and we are successful at making customers understand what the extra money is for when they buy from us versus eBay or any other website. If the internet has done anything positive it has FORCED brick and mortar stores (like me) to provide superior customer service to people that actually walk through our doors. I will say that if a business is willing to provide the service that they should have been providing all along they will be successful selling at a reasonable profit point.


Well said....


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## joemk69 (Dec 3, 2010)

msrp is a crock of ****. The mark ups on car audio products is nuts. A lot of stuff is marked up 100% Luckily I get most of my stuff at or around dealer cost


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## lpreston (Dec 29, 2006)

cgarnes said:


> I own a store in MS, and we don't list anything in the store at MSRP. However, as an authorized dealer we are required to price everything at what is called MAP price (Minimum Advertised Price). We sell most everything we sell at MAP price, and we are successful at making customers understand what the extra money is for when they buy from us versus eBay or any other website. If the internet has done anything positive it has FORCED brick and mortar stores (like me) to provide superior customer service to people that actually walk through our doors. I will say that if a business is willing to provide the service that they should have been providing all along they will be successful selling at a reasonable profit point.


Very well said!


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## cgarnes (Apr 1, 2008)

joemk69 said:


> msrp is a crock of ****. The mark ups on car audio products is nuts. A lot of stuff is marked up 100% Luckily I get most of my stuff at or around dealer cost


Do you honestly think there is not a HUGE markup on everything you do pay retail for at Wal-Mart? Or maybe that $300 pair of jeans I see guys wear into my store on a daily basis. 
I think that people have a hard time understanding that when you shop at a local dealer they are buying a whole heck of a lot more than the products inside the store. At least I hope they are buying more than that. For example, our store here in MS brings over 40 years of hands on experience to the table every time we talk to a customer. I won't let my younger guys talk to customers alone because they do not have the real world experience to answer every question a customer might have. 
I would encourage you to get out and meet some of the guys at your local shop(s). Ask questions and see if they are able to help you answer any questions you might have. They might even surprise you and earn your business. You might even become friends as I have with most of my repeat customers. If you're not satisfied continue as you are, but please don't under value what a quality shop offers in the way of helping its customers make the correct decisions about their system. You work for a living and you deserve a fair paycheck at the end of your day. So do I.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

I only pay MSRP for important investments coz I don't want fakes or damaged items for the price I pay. 

Reason why I paid MSRP for my Milbert. 

Kelvin


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## audiogodz1 (Jan 5, 2010)

joemk69 said:


> msrp is a crock of ****. The mark ups on car audio products is nuts. A lot of stuff is marked up 100% Luckily I get most of my stuff at or around dealer cost


"luckily"? That doesn't make you a customer or consumer it makes you a leech on the system. You are responsible for the demise of both the retailer and the manufacturer by only giving a damn about yourself and what you get it for versus supporting the balance of the system that makes it possible for there to be a manufacturer building the amp you want or a middle man there for you to scheme it off of. We all want a deal, but to brag on bypassing the system to get it at material cost pretty much makes you an enemy of the system. 

As far as huge markup, this isn't 1998. Your labor is all that is supporting the shops these days. Retailers can't make a dollar on products fighting the internet. If you were a _12v insider_ you'd know how bad it is.


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## cgarnes (Apr 1, 2008)

I also think it is amazing that a person will say they only pay MSRP for important things.
1,482 posts on diy alone. Car audio must be pretty important to you. You obviously spend a lot of time reading about it, and talking about it. I personally don't think your lucky. I think you're selfish. 
As a retailer I tell people all the time I'm happy to price match the internet, but they will also receive the same service. Don't call me with a question. Email me. I might even respond. If you believe you have a problem with your product box it up and send it to me shipping prepaid of course! And most importantly DO NOT as me any questions about the product before the sale. You had better do your own research when you walk through the door. I am merely a clerk at the mall. You obviously know more than me. I'm just the thief asking too much money for my products...


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## FAUEE (Jul 22, 2010)

I agree with both sides.

Customers who don't know what they want will pay MSRP because people help them find what they need. That difference between online price and MAP/MSRP is what pays for the shipping to the store, the store to be there, the sales people in the store, and the time they spend helping you decide what to buy.

There's nothing worse than having a customer come in, ask you a ton of questions, and even talk about what they want to buy and then order it all on ebay or some other place with gray market gear. I don't mind helping people decide what to buy. I recognize a lot of the time what they need isn't in stock and we need to order it from our warehouses or something, and I've been known to come up with the best solution for people even if some of it requires outside gear. But I HATE it when people come in and use my knowledge then go buy gray market gear and expect us to install it at a discount for them. 

As a rule, we install stuff from anywhere. We don't use cheapo amp kits or other critical parts like that as they can present a very real safety/liability hazard, but if you order your amp online we install it. A store not far from us had a customer that literally spent 6 hours in the store planning a system, amps, subs, components, everything. They had to pull an installer out of the shop to help sell this guy his stuff (that's a whole other issue entirely though). Finally they get this guy set up with countless demos, looking at every possible combination of stuff, getting him set for a great system. They even went over pros and cons of items they didn't even sell. Guy says he will be back to purchase everything (bad sign). So a week or so later the guy shows up with all the stuff that they had listed for him to buy at that store. But nobody in the sales staff knows anything about it. They start looking at what he's got and it's all old models and gray market crap off the internet. They were upset. Then the guy says that since he's bringing them all this stuff that they should cut him a big deal on the installation of it all. They say "you know what's weird is that we haven't sold this version of this stuff for a few years", he says "oh I got it online, you guys charged too much for it, why would i buy it from you when I could get it for way cheaper if I bought it online?". The installer who had worked with him was very upset at this point and said "Because then I would have installed it, I'm not installing your gray market stuff now. You came in and wasted my time and took my labor in having me pick out all this stuff, and then you didn't even have the decency to let my store get the credit for my work to keep the lights on and me employed. Then you come in here wanted me to take money off the installation as well, which we don't even make a whole lot off on a big job like this? Why don't you have the place that you bought it all from install it". The guy apparently just looked dumbfounded, said he was sorry and left. A few weeks later the guy came back in, ordered all the stuff through them, and got it all installed by them.

This story had a good ending, the guy actually realized that he was in fact putting the people who helped him out of business. But a lot of them never do. I couldn't tell you how many people would come in and refuse to pay our install prices since "they knew a guy" who could do it cheaper, then came back with all sorts of crap broken and messed up and wanted us to install it. I remember one guy who had got a stereo for his girlfriend. Well, "the guy he knew" hooked up the illumination wires wrong, and friend the illumination circuit. She was understandably upset at not being able to see her gauges at night. He begged us to fix it, but all the fuses were fine. We told him if he was lucky it was the dimmer switch, if not the BCM was trashed. Pretty sure she dumped him. We did get his CD player working though!


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## joemk69 (Dec 3, 2010)

audiogodz1 said:


> "luckily"? That doesn't make you a customer or consumer it makes you a leech on the system. You are responsible for the demise of both the retailer and the manufacturer by only giving a damn about yourself and what you get it for versus supporting the balance of the system that makes it possible for there to be a manufacturer building the amp you want or a middle man there for you to scheme it off of. We all want a deal, but to brag on bypassing the system to get it at material cost pretty much makes you an enemy of the system.
> 
> As far as huge markup, this isn't 1998. Your labor is all that is supporting the shops these days. Retailers can't make a dollar on products fighting the internet. If you were a _12v insider_ you'd know how bad it is.


2 friends of mine own shops, so I am not a leech. They chose to give me the products at the price I received them for. I purchased 3 amps 2 which msrp at $1400 each and the other was $3200. Their cost on those amps is half of the msrp. How can you justify somebody making a profit of $3000.00 off of one sale? That is just nuts, we all work hard for our money unfortunately I dont have a money tree in my back yard


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

cgarnes said:


> I also think it is amazing that a person will say they only pay MSRP for important things.
> 1,482 posts on diy alone. Car audio must be pretty important to you. You obviously spend a lot of time reading about it, and talking about it. I personally don't think your lucky. I think you're selfish.
> As a retailer I tell people all the time I'm happy to price match the internet, but they will also receive the same service. Don't call me with a question. Email me. I might even respond. If you believe you have a problem with your product box it up and send it to me shipping prepaid of course! And most importantly DO NOT as me any questions about the product before the sale. You had better do your own research when you walk through the door. I am merely a clerk at the mall. You obviously know more than me. I'm just the thief asking too much money for my products...


Not buying at MSRP prices (the one that's advertised on the manufacturer's website) doesn't mean I do not buy from dealers. 
I arrived on DIYMA after I bought some of my stuffs: 
Eclipse CD8455 - MSRP $599 - Bought from a US dealer for $450 
Eclipse CD7000 - MSRP $599 - Bought from a US dealer for $400 
Eclipse CD7200 mkII - MSRP $599 - Bought from a US dealer for $400 
Audison SRx2s - MSRP $450 - Bought from a French dealer for $360 
Audison LRx3.1k - MSRP $1430 - Bought from a French dealer for $1000 
Audiocontrol DQS - MSRP $599 - Bought from a US dealer for $450 
DLS A2+DLS A2+DLS A4 - MSRP ??? - Bought from a US dealer for $1300 
2xUS Amps TU-4360 - Bought from US Amps for $1000 
Focal K3P - MSRP ??? - Bought from a French dealer for $850 
2xFocal Utopia 27wx - MSRP ??? - Bought from a French dealer for $400 (old stock)
Hybrid Imagine 6 - Bought from HAT for $220 
Image Dynamics CD1e v.3 - Bought from ID for $299 
Image Dynamics X65 - Bought from ID for $350 
Memphis M1 - MSRP ??? - Bought from my cousin who's a dealer for $160 
SI Mag v.4 - Bought from SI used for ??? 
SI BM v.2 - Bought from SI for $430 

Might be many more that I forgot. Some I still own, some have been sold. 

Please don't tell me that I'm a bad customer for not paying MSRP and that it's because of people like me that the industry is dying. Money is hard to earn even for customers, therefore if I can save some money, I'd definitely try to get a bargain. 
As you can see, I deal with retailers... A LOT. 

Please... PLEASE, keep your comments for someone else. I know you work hard but I do too. 

Kelvin 

PS: Car Audio is my hobby, an expensive one. I'm still dealing with dealers coz I want to keep the same hobby...


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## Miniboom (Jul 15, 2010)

I remember being new to car audio, I relied on the local car audio shops both for buying and tips for installing. And let me say it, goddamn most of those guys are retarded, and they expect people to pay a ****load of cash for their advice. Naturally, I didn't realize that before I got some education myself - both in installing/choosing the right products AND price comparison. Also, after I started using overseas webshops/eBay/PayPal, a whole new world opened up, so to speak.

MSRP for a JL 10W7 in Norway was over $900. Yes. $900! Who the hell pays that much KNOWING they can get it online from the US for half that, shipped and taxed? Not that many, but I know a few. By going online to the US + getting some stuff used in Norway, *I saved more than $4000* on a JL 1000/1, a JL 450/4, two JL 10W7's, a Dayton/Vifa/TangBand front combo, and a Pioneer 5000DVD-receiver. 

Compared to the insane MSRP @ almost $7000 that is...

With the money I've saved by shopping overseas over the years, I've spent $2000 building a home subwoofer and speakers with a matching shelf/rack, plus renovated my apartment +++.  I'm not paying MSRP if I can avoid it. For the amounts I spend on car audio, and the money I save by going online, I can surely spend some time reading up on the theoretics.


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## Jaredturp (Apr 30, 2010)

My local shop tried to sell me a cheapo plastic terminal cup (same as on parts-express for under a dollar each) for 9 dollars.... That's not business, it's a scam. It's the same as preying on the old. Just because you can get someone to pay a rediculous price for something doesn't mean you should. The consumer has to maintain their living just like the shop has to make theirs. There is a ballance and both sides need to find a bit more morality. Shops need to be reasonable and consumers should realize that buying from ebay stores puts local businesses out of business.


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## GRIFTER9931 (Aug 30, 2009)

subwoofery said:


> Not buying at MSRP prices (the one that's advertised on the manufacturer's website) doesn't mean I do not buy from dealers.
> I arrived on DIYMA after I bought some of my stuffs:
> Eclipse CD8455 - MSRP $599 - Bought from a US dealer for $450
> Eclipse CD7000 - MSRP $599 - Bought from a US dealer for $400
> ...


The point of this particular thread was exactly what you said above...... You can purchase from dealers without paying MSRP.... Its all about having a relationship with your local Authorized dealer. But the none sense that is spouted about MSRP on this site and a few others is really ignorant and flat out incorrect. 

Buy the gear that sounds the best to you or what you can afford. We all love the music, its why we spend hours upon hours, tweaking and tinkering with this hobby and the gear we purchase. I have JL equipment for the most part. Had i believed 90% of what i read on here, i would have different equipment. 
But i asked and i got what amounts to be a pretty good deal on the gear i wanted, that was within my budget. 

Next time i may go more exotic and get something less main stream.
Zed amps, custom woofers and mid bass and see if i like that as much.
I highly doubt even then i will be paying MSRP...


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## carlton jones (May 29, 2009)

woould you do your job for less than what they pay you. then look at the shops in the same light. they are in business to stay in business. and to the online buyers who i dont blame but just think when or if it breaks you have no one to take it to and have it fixed. you have to take it out send it off and wait for it to get back.


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## Quagmire (Feb 27, 2006)

joemk69 said:


> 2 friends of mine own shops, so I am not a leech. They chose to give me the products at the price I received them for. I purchased 3 amps 2 which msrp at $1400 each and the other was $3200. Their cost on those amps is half of the msrp. How can you justify somebody making a profit of $3000.00 off of one sale? That is just nuts, we all work hard for our money unfortunately I dont have a money tree in my back yard


I agree with your second to last sentence wholeheartedly. The internet is not shutting down magically tomorrow, so wasting any energy hating on it, especially in front of a customer or worse yet TO a customer is insane. The easier ways to make money have changed drastically because of it, but fighting or cursing it brightly indicates to a customer that the retailer is incapable of moving with the flow and throws up flags that have the customer questioning said retailer's skills to do what the customer is in need of. 

Anyone that curses the internet or the iPod around me most certainly will not be touching my car to do a technically advanced installation of some device. I MIGHT let them clean my car after confirming that they are proficient with a vacuum, soap bucket, rag and chamois.


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## carlton jones (May 29, 2009)

that msrp price may just be what keeps them open the next month if they are having a slow period. and some lines are protected so the manufacturers keep they prices up to build value in their products


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## USS Enterprise (May 26, 2007)

I don't pay MSRP.
Most of what I buy is old school, and no longer available in shops.

Or else I buy used.

I have no problem with buying in shops, if the shop is good. Unfortunately, no shops in my area are good.

The last time I went into a shop was a few months ago. Asked them to install my HLCD's.
I at the time was unable to do it.

The head installer (and yes, I verified with him he was the HEAD installer) nice guy, about 30 proceeded to tell me it would be at least 300 bucks to install, if I had room under my front seats.

I kindly asked him what he was talking about, and he said that all HLCD's should be mounted under the front seats, pointing forward. The sound would roll up the dashboard.
He said even better, angle them towards the floor, and the sound would bounce up.

Granted, i'm no expert. But that is just asinine. Needless to say, I will never return. For anything. Regardless of price. I know HLCD's are a niche item, but if you don't know about something, admit it. Don't just make something up.

To make matters worse, I tried to kindly explain it to him, and he started to argue with me. So I just left.

That's our typical car audio shop in my area for you.


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## jeremyjay46 (Dec 20, 2010)

carlton jones said:


> woould you do your job for less than what they pay you. then look at the shops in the same light. they are in business to stay in business. and to the online buyers who i dont blame but just think when or if it breaks you have no one to take it to and have it fixed. you have to take it out send it off and wait for it to get back.



...which is what many of the dealers do too, unless they are an authorized service center. And, if they are, you can bring your unit for them to fix regardless of where you bought it. 

I don't mind spending a little more to keep money local. However, when a local shop has a product that isn't even the latest model, and they want full MSRP for it, it is insulting. My local shop wanted full MSRP for a model year old Alpine PDX amp... I was astounded. Same story with HUs... 2009 models and full MSRP. It's a racket, and I walked out with my money.


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## Miniboom (Jul 15, 2010)

Actually, is there really a good reason why local shops can't match online pricing?

It's a little naive thinking less customers and sales can be fixed by charging more per sale. You won't see a rising trend in sales that way. At least I don't think so...

I'm thinking maybe, just maybe, they could charge more from installing and try to get their prices closer to web prices plus shipping, and a small amount on top of that, so the customer would pay about the same amount at both places?

In my area some webshops that sell electrical goods have in fact started ordinary shops to get more customers. They have very small shops, and a larger storage in the back. They just have a few people working at the same time, and no products in the shop, just brochures and plaques. That way they can have a LOT of products displayed with no maintenance and no demo-used stuff that's collecting dust. 

When you find something you want to look at or buy, they get it at the storage and get it right away. They charge nothing more in the "real" shop vs. the webshop - and it seems to be going fine!


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## lesspaul77 (Dec 6, 2010)

This may be a stupid statement but if you can't brat them the join them. Have a brick and mortar storefront but also open up an online sales business. That way you can price match, get more sales, move more product, and still provide service to those customers that value said service.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

It costs a ****LOAD of money to sustain a shop. You guys ***** about how much it costs you to buy **** and ***** about how msrp is too much, too much for what, your bottom line? Why? Because of your cost of life?

Yes, it does cost money to make money.

To the guy who asked why retailers can't match or beat online prices.. sure retailers could, but they would go out of business. 

You buy the **** on credit usually, depending on your terms, if you don't sell it you end up paying interest on that item... just like your real life.. so that convenience of having the piece sitting there for you to come and pick up on a whim costs money, an internet retailer can trans-ship and never have to worry about stocking actual product.. images in cyberspace don't cost **** all compared to a real amp sitting on a real amp board that has a 2000 dollar power supply that is needed so you can listen to the ****ing thing.. 

I have no problem selling stuff for over MSRP if that is what it takes to stay in business. you don't like it, go **** yourself you can buy off the internet and have no protection/service/audition.

It takes a LONG time to pay off the infrastructure needed to support a shop/sales area. three phase power for your gigatic tablesaw, a gigantic tablesaw and all the supporting **** you need to support the installation of the product you sell. There is not some magic fairy that makes these things cheaper for a shop by a magnitude just as there is not a magic fairy that shows up at the end of the month and helps you pay your bills.

If I don't make a sale because some cheap prick can't handle paying what I need to stay open then who cares, if he can't afford it, wal-mart sells dual for an affordable price, or he can take his chance buying online, but bottom line it is not worth it for me to sacrifice my margin to make a sale to a guy who is probably going to buy his next gear on the internet because I didn't gut myself to satisfy his champagne taste on his beer budget. 

That is what DIY is about really, finding the stuff that is cheap because it is cheap and does the job properly because it is well designed, not gutting the bottom line out of mom and pop shops so you can rock top level gear for pennies on the dollar.


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## pikers (Oct 21, 2007)

The "myth" revolving around MSRP is that this is "extra" profit over fleabay or some other online garage sale site. I understand when dealers go over MSRP or something, but even selling item at that price is not unreasonable. That is, after all, what the manufacturer's suggested price is, by definition. It may be what that particular dealer needs to charge to pay good people and keep the lights on.

I see all the time people posting and whining about the poor service they get at local dealers, and at the same time, expect bargain basement pricing. You can't bring in a small amount of money to pay salaries and operating costs, and expect these places to pay solid employees. Look at the average difference in the quality of service and knowledge between good home A/V dealers and big box retailers. Note which ones sell items at massive discounts and which do not. Do the math.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

There are good shops and bad shops. Charging well over MSRP and providing nothing in return is just silly and is bad business. No one likes to be leveraged that way and retailers should stop thinking that the problem is the internet. 

Everything is available on google and everything can be shipped overnight. This means that local shops in all industries have to offer something other than or in addition to price and selection in order to do business. Friendly and knowledgeable staff is pretty helpful. Great service is a good one. That comes in many forms. 

For some reason, Americans believe that there's little better than a great deal--driving across town for cheap gas or to save 20 cents on a bar of soap--but we seem no longer to be willing to invest in anything other than our own short-term self interest, but we rarely use our brains in determining what we should pay for. In almost all areas of the country, tap water is clean and healthy, but we buy billions of dollars of bottled water each year which has to be transported in trucks. Why doesn't anyone ***** about paying more for water than for gasoline?

ON the flip-side, there's no good reason to pay more to be treated like ****. I once needed a wiring harness for an old Honda and went to a local retailer in NY to buy one. I was told by the sales guy that they would install the radio for me. I said no need--I just need the harness. I know how much these things cost and eventually paid 45-dollars for one so I could get the radio installed in my girlfriend's car the same day. I had to call the owner of the store on his cell phone while I was standing in the front of the store arguing with his sales person about whether I could even buy one. Preposterous, but guess what--they're out of business and no longer bitching about the internet.


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## jimbno1 (Apr 14, 2008)

I guess you haven't heard about the water in Chicago. It has "alarming levels" of Hexavalent Chromium. 
It’s the same metal that was cause for concern in the docu-drama, “Erin Brockovich.”


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

As a business owner, but husband and father first I can *see* both sides, of course that doesn't mean that I would agree with both. 

You wanna sit in your boxers and shop online because you are a DIYer ? No problem, but at least support the companies that will support you later - ie: Crutchfield. Looking for the cheapest price isn't always the best route for saving some coin. In the long run it could bite you in the ass ( incoming now of the naysayers). 

I almost Never charge full SRP, but then again my price are also hardly ever questioned either. Why ? I sell myself first, then the product follows. The majority of my clients understand what they are getting and also know I have a business to run and family to support like everyone else. 

With the internet shoppers ... when is the last time you negotiated a gallon of milk ? Gas ? How bout your last doctor visit ? You never did ? Why the hell not ?? You expect us to cave and give you bottom dollar, but you don't do this to everyone ? Not quite fair to us, is it ? 

We actually stock products, many etailers do not. If you are naive enough to believe that the 'in stock' icon is always correct, then perhaps you are already shopping in the right place. 

Let's not mention electricity, insurance, accountant, merchant fees, advertising, payroll, etc, etc do you know how expensive inventory CAN be ? Hell I have dead stock from years ago, sure it may be bypasses for remote starts, harness, dash kits, etc .. but that adds up and we sit on it. 

Wanna buy from the internet and have us install ? No problem. BUT that is exactly what we will do ... install it. Nothing more and nothing less. Have a problem with the product .. we can remove it and hand it to you. deal with your seller for the problem.

Why are you paying us more ? 

Experience - you have questions, that is what -specifically- we are here for. 

Bills, yes we have those pesky things too ! Did you think shops were free to run ? 
As mentioned earlier we have inventory, tools, electricity, etc to pay for. This is our job and the ones that are truly passionate about it do it for more than a weekly pay check, we do it FOR YOU. Please respect that. 

Inventory. Ok so you have a blown driver or a bad alarm brain. Generally I will swap it out on the spot for you. No RA, shipping, wait time, etc We do all that work for you. Do we not deserve to be compensated for our time ? What makes your time more valuable than ours ?

I can go on, but it is honestly frustrating to do so. If you have no local dealers, then prior to doing a google search for the cheapest or fastest place, try the manufacturer directly. In more cases than not they can point you in the right direction. Do I ship things ? Absofriggenlutely, but with FULL authorization from the manufacturer. I have bent over backwards to assist many people with purchases and a few quick searches can show this to be true.

Work rationally with your dealer and you will find you can get everything you need along with an actual person to work with and at a reasonable price. Respect them and it will be returned. Start off with " I found it on xxxxx.com for cheaper" and I would show you the door.


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## Low_e_Red (Aug 23, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> As a business owner, but husband and father first I can *see* both sides, of course that doesn't mean that I would agree with both.
> 
> You wanna sit in your boxers and shop online because you are a DIYer ? No problem, but at least support the companies that will support you later - ie: Crutchfield. Looking for the cheapest price isn't always the best route for saving some coin. In the long run it could bite you in the ass ( incoming now of the naysayers).
> 
> ...


AMEN Don!!! :thumbsup::rockon::bowdown:


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## GRIFTER9931 (Aug 30, 2009)

6spdcoupe said:


> As a business owner, but husband and father first I can *see* both sides, of course that doesn't mean that I would agree with both.
> 
> You wanna sit in your boxers and shop online because you are a DIYer ? No problem, but at least support the companies that will support you later - ie: Crutchfield. Looking for the cheapest price isn't always the best route for saving some coin. In the long run it could bite you in the ass ( incoming now of the naysayers).
> 
> ...



I wish more shops were as passionate as you are. But they aren't. I support my local guys and they treat me right. But I still don't pay MSRP and i do get some pretty good deals. It takes some searching, but good knowledgeable shops are hard to find. But they are out there. Like a good deal , good hunting and remember they will treat you as well as you treat them.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

The industry models are changing like most consumer industries. The world is such a different place and commerce is completely different now than when we were kids first being exposed to car audio. Good, bad, you decide.. It is what it is. When your only go-to was the shop down the street or the local circuit city (Lord help ya), then that was where it was at, and in some degree the service was probably better (on average - keywords) than now. 

As the brick/mortar business declined with declining margins, it's now two notches shy of a pawn shop on average and if you're not doing a full-on rock-hard install with tint, lights, etc, they're actually not interested. I couldn't even get a call-back about some tint work so no soup for them, which surprises me none.

It's kind of a catch 22 as the "DIY" thing has pretty much taken over and guys aren't scared ****less about installing a silly amp or head unit and have catalogs of install threads on forums to learn from, eventually DIY will be pretty much the ONLY option, like it or not, if you want a) any decent service, b) legit business practice, c) reasonable fair market pricing. 

Granted you get what you pay for, but sometimes you don't.. As the brick/mortar shops have been reduced to what they are now, more often than now, you can't get any or either of the above.

So, the money saved or not spent is made up in time and effort of folks having to get r done themselves, for better or worse. I know probably two amatuers who do installs for their friends because they know how and there's no "decent" shop to get it done locally.

This is huge actually, and I bet Andy can vouch for how it's changed marketing in the 12v industry as a whole. In larger cities it may not be as prevalent but in my town there's 1 (ONE) shop, and how they stay afloat is a mystery.. Tint work and ****-install fixes I'm guessing and the leftover numb-nuts that still go that route for their pimpin' $10k rides with ****-chrome dubs. There's still enough lower-food-chain to keep shady businesses in business, but legit customers don't go there.


What sucks about all this.. Now I'm a grown-up.. A professional earning a check. Now I can afford to just have it done, but I wouldn't let those guys near my car if I had to. I'll DIY it or go without, so without time to get it done, the ride remains stock.


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## jimbno1 (Apr 14, 2008)

All the B&M places I have approached have said they would be more than happy to install my equipment. Maybe I have just been lucky. 

One issue is that most of the shops don't necessarily carry what I may want to install. For instance Alpine F1 Scanspeak 3-ways, Scanspeak 15Ws and D3004/6020, Peerless Exclusive 4's. Does any B&M carry those? 

And I am sorry I am just not going to pay $900 for a JL HD 600/4 when I can get it for less than half that. I will take my chances that my "Grey Market" amp will hold up. Hell I can buy another one and still come out even. 

I have had some bad experiences in the past with B&M shops. For instance I bought a set of high end speakers (full MSRP) from a shop and had them install them. I asked for the tweeter to be mounted near the midbass in the door. When I go to pick up the car they had installed the tweeter high in the door well away from the midbass. The explanation? "It was a better spot". Even if it was they should have consulted me first. So I to am not completely trusting of B&M shops.

The other thing I seem to get from B&M is the attitude that if I am not competing then it is just OK to slap some speakers in the door and call it a day. While I don't want to spend more than is necessary, if I just wanted to slap something in the door I would do it myself. And I certainly would not be choosing Scanspeak, Hertz Milles, HAT Legatias, or the like to slap in there. It's like "well if you were competing we could do kick panels, A-Pillar Tweets, etc., but since you aren't then we can just build a door pod and put everything there." 

What I really need is help tuning and with fabrication. And I don't think it is unreasonable to enlist a B&M shop to do just that. And I expect to pay for it, and pay well if the estimates are any indication.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

I did the brick and mortar thing for a long time, selling and istalling

I always loved the DIYers.. it costs them a LOT more for me to fix their **** ups than it does to just do the job the first time. I always ended up making more money off of somebodies perceived personal ability than an install sold with a package.

Everybody always knows exactly what they're doing until they don't. See it in every facet of society really. It's not like it was thirty years ago when everybody was a farm boy and could do long division.. those guys, my grandpas age, really could do it all but now we have the genx'ers and their sense of entitlement assuming they can do it all because it can be done. It is really quite hilarious when they bring me their car with no working lights, or better yet have it delivered by a tow truck because they blew their computer trying to install their remote start.

The slice of the diy demographic represented by this site is such a small slice of the pie. People here tend to be able to get the job done despite whether or not they actually know what they are doing. Thumbing through the install logs on this site is quite hilarious seeing all these people who 'know' what they are doing and seeing the junk they pass off, and then seeing them ask about a whine in their system, or asking how to fix an error.. face it, you guys DON'T know what you are doing and know just enough to be dangerous.. my favorite type of customer.

With out a pictoral guide for you guys to figure out how to fit something in a dash, or solve a problem you are useless like human tits on a giraffe. It's hilarious that you come here and exalt the virtues of diy but your ignorance is your bliss.

I left the industry making over 60k a year to pursue a more rewarding career so now I diy. I've seen it all, twice or three times. The way the industry is going is conducive to morons being able to barely do a job and have it work, but such is life and the entire world is being dumbed down to monkey see monkey do mentality, but in the end just because it can be done by an amateur does not mean an amateur actually knows what he is doing. Thankfully, I have found a profession where that is not the case and the industry is protected from amateurs with half a clue and a screwdriver.

For the years I worked in Car Audio I enjoyed it, I was lucky enough to live and work through the glory days and built up an excellent reputation. I competed with the big box stores and kicked their ass because of my reputation as a professional. I won government contracts and expanded my business into markets I never thought possible.

I learned a lot of lessons, two were, haters be hating, and, there are far more ****ty diyers than ****ty professional installers.

EDIT: 

when I ran a shop I had two separate install rates, if you bought from me you got the cheaper rate, if you brought me third party equipment or a junk install you wanted gone through and fixed then you payed the higher shop rate.. shop rate was 90 bucks an hour.. oddly enough I was always booked weeks in advance, even through the crash in 08.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

jimbno1 said:


> One issue is that most of the shops don't necessarily carry what I may want to install. For instance Alpine F1 Scanspeak 3-ways, Scanspeak 15Ws and D3004/6020, Peerless Exclusive 4's. Does any B&M carry those?



Actually, yes I do.


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

I wasn't aware that internet stores operated for free with no electricity or employees to pay. They also don't have kids to feed and families to support? Interesting stuff... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

if you seriously think that the cost of running an internet retail outlet is anywhere near the cost of running a proper retail/install facility you gotta put down the doobie.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

BoostedNihilist said:


> if you seriously think that the cost of running an internet retail outlet is anywhere near the cost of running a proper retail/install facility you gotta put down the doobie.


Agreed. Especially considering the majority of them are simply just keyboard commandos and do it to generate EXTRA revenue.


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## jeremyjay46 (Dec 20, 2010)

Babs said:


> What sucks about all this.. Now I'm a grown-up.. A professional earning a check. Now I can afford to just have it done, but I wouldn't let those guys near my car if I had to. I'll DIY it or go without, so without time to get it done, the ride remains stock.


:thumbsup:

This is where I am at too... I've seen most of the local shops... and I sure as hell won't take my Z06 in for them to climb over.

Just by reading some of the posts on here, I can see certain business owners I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to go to, and certain ones I'd avoid like the plague because of their attitude, abrasiveness, and ignorance to today's commerce. As was said previously, it is what it is... so adapt, or go broke. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it's the reality. People talk about the "huge risk" of buying online. Yet when someone can get two new units for the price of one at msrp, pretty good odds say they will come out well ahead, if they are a DIY'er. Again, it's just a fact of life in this day and age.

I'm all about supporting good, clean, professional local businesses at slightly higher prices. But to buy a dusty, dirty, year old product at full msrp is a joke. Like one of the owners said above... you need to sell yourself first.. then the product. Otherwise, why should anyone care about giving you their business over a dot-com? Especially when they can install the equipment themselves, and not worry about what condition their pride and joy vehicle will come back to them in.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

I have to say the freedom of not having to keep up appearances for the sake of customer relations is *SO* liberating. My success in the industry is self evidence of the fact that the model still works. I left car audio on my own terms, at the top of my game in an outlet that didn't even feel a bump due to the financial troubles that killed most of my competitors. I am beyond the point of caring what random character judgments might fall on me because I speak my mind.

I work on equipment now that costs 1000x more than a z06, or even a ferrari. Car audio for me was what it is for most of the talent in the industry, a great stepping stone to bigger, way better things.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

American dream.. God love it! Good for you Boosted, sincerely.

Your No BS attitude truthfully I would have respect for if I were in your shop and would probably just let you do the job and there you go. You certainly sound far more straight-up than the one shop in my area. It's sad.

Goes to show it's the PERSON, not just a SHOP that makes a business, of any kind.

I should qualify my statements about DIY'ing.. I totally agree, make sure you can do a job before you go full-throttle Griswald.

It's all good if a person actually DOES know what the hell they're doing, otherwise just see the value in seeking someone who can actually do the job. There's no shame in specialization. I can do my simple iPod integration box or a couple amps, etc, but I'd have not problem seeing Boosted about an alarm install or some crazy 12V **** I have no business messing with.

I'm not on a ladder pulling out windows when I can call a window company who does the work day, granted I've had to call them back a couple times because they didn't seal it properly, of course but that's a different thread.

So there's value in hunting down a good local professional if you need the big work done.


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

I havent been in the biz for over a decade. Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't the canbus systems made alarm and remote start installation easier? Nearly all of the external relays have been replaced with an interface module. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jimbno1 (Apr 14, 2008)

6spdcoupe - I have to say I am impressed. Most shops I talk to don't know Scanspeak from a hole in the ground. I am curious how you would obtain the Alpine F1 3-ways since they are discontinued, but I am sure you have your sources. I am no where near Jersey or I would ask for an appointment. 

And I agree as some others have stated that I can handle wiring an amp and speakers. But for Alarms and fabricating a center channel for instance I would definately go to a shop. I don't want something looking like a horse's ass sitting in the middle of my dash. Looking like a horse's ass is my job!


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## jeremyjay46 (Dec 20, 2010)

BoostedNihilist said:


> I work on equipment now that costs 1000x more than a z06, or even a ferrari. Car audio for me was what it is for most of the talent in the industry, a great stepping stone to bigger, way better things.



I'm sorry you took my comment so personally. I also work on multi million dollar equipment... who cares? My point is, I'm not going to give some shop the keys to my pride and joy without fully knowing WHO is doing the work, the kind of work they put out, and their reputation in the industry. If you had all of those things covered, good for you! I was simply stating another reason why certain people who are capable of doing a clean, correct, custom installation of their own DO IT. Just part of the DIY world. I was speaking to the local shops I have seen... I don't know you or the shop you had. I'm sure if you were so successful, you can agree that it was partly due to the fact that a lot of shops SUCK... right?


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

jeremyjay46 said:


> I'm sorry you took my comment so personally. I also work on multi million dollar equipment... who cares? My point is, I'm not going to give some shop the keys to my pride and joy without fully knowing WHO is doing the work, the kind of work they put out, and their reputation in the industry. If you had all of those things covered, good for you! I was simply stating another reason why certain people who are capable of doing a clean, correct, custom installation of their own DO IT. Just part of the DIY world. I was speaking to the local shops I have seen... I don't know you or the shop you had. I'm sure if you were so successful, you can agree that it was partly due to the fact that a lot of shops SUCK... right?


Why you assumed I was responding to your post is beyond me.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

W8 a minute said:


> I havent been in the biz for over a decade. Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't the canbus systems made alarm and remote start installation easier? Nearly all of the external relays have been replaced with an interface module.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Easier ? Not always. More expensive ? Absolutely. Not to mentioned you NEED to always have backups when you have a bypass that just doesn't want to work or program. It's A LOT more expensive to stock several dozen bypasses than it is for a few dozen relays.

Easier doesn't always equate to better.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

jimbno1 said:


> 6spdcoupe - I have to say I am impressed. Most shops I talk to don't know Scanspeak from a hole in the ground. I am curious how you would obtain the Alpine F1 3-ways since they are discontinued, but I am sure you have your sources. I am no where near Jersey or I would ask for an appointment.
> 
> And I agree as some others have stated that I can handle wiring an amp and speakers. But for Alarms and fabricating a center channel for instance I would definately go to a shop. I don't want something looking like a horse's ass sitting in the middle of my dash. Looking like a horse's ass is my job!


Sorry I missed this earlier. When Alpine was dumping them, I sold a dozen or so sets. I still have a few places to grab em from as well, although at this point I would prefer the Scan route. Not only due to liking them better (personal opinion here), but the fact that there is a warranty to stand behind them for my clients.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

and this is why i am by appointment only, no retail. i cannot stand people who would waste ones time to audition or get advice from them with no intentions to buy from them.

makes me sick


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## cannan (Jan 19, 2010)

Porsche said:


> and this is why i am by appointment only, no retail. i cannot stand people who would waste ones time to audition or get advice from them with no intentions to buy from them.
> 
> makes me sick


Your attitude is becoming more and more prevalent for some retail owners / workers these days, but its totally understandable. At least to me 

I have a buddy in real estate and he's going to have a heart attack before he's 35 because he gets so worked up when he wines & dines, shares information, shows 10 houses. etc. to a potential client and they never call him back.


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## NeverEnuffBass (Oct 25, 2007)

USS Enterprise said:


> I don't pay MSRP.
> Most of what I buy is old school, and no longer available in shops.
> 
> Or else I buy used.
> ...


And where in CT are you?


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

Porsche said:


> and this is why i am by appointment only, no retail. i cannot stand people who would waste ones time to audition or get advice from them with no intentions to buy from them.
> 
> makes me sick


1) It's not the customers obligation to buy from you. It's your job to convince the customer. Who's fault is it if you can't close the deal? Not the customer's I assure you. God forbid a customer might want to shop around or educate themselves before making a purchase.

It seems you expect us to buy from you because we owe you something? Unfortunately this is the attitude of most retailers. I can tell you without hesitation that I owe you nothing. If potential customers make you sick then maybe it's time to quit?

2) Complaining that the internet is killing your business is a joke. The internet is a competitor and like any competitor they found a better way to do business. 

You seem to have a computer already. Maybe it's time to change your business model?

3) Straight from the factory many new cars can be started with a smart phone, have GPS, hard drives, and take voice commands. Now what are you going to do?

Build a better mouse trap, the cream always rises to the top, evolve or die, etc. It's really not something new. Some animals are extinct for a reason.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

his business model clearly works for him  who are you to tell him otherwise? 

The internet is not a competitor for him because he has chosen not to compete with internet sharks, good for him! He HAS built a better mousetrap  He no longer needs to deal with customers with an entitlement disorder.

While countless retailers have gone under gutting themselves to placate to the masses this guy has refined his business and seemingly perfected the art of qualifying his buyers, a key skill of ANY successful sales person.

Complaining about the internet killing your business IS a joke, if your business is susceptible to the price gouging of shady internet retailers selling unauthorized product then you have FAR bigger problems. The internet is *NOT* a better way to sell, or even buy, it is just CHEAPER way to obtain gear, with the associated risk. If you are okay with the risk then you can take advantage of the perceived rewards. I know many people who refuse to buy from internet retailers because of the all too common horror stories of deals gone bad. 

If the gov shuts down the internet tomorrow and there are no more retailers left.. do you think this guy would give you an appointment? Good thing new cars come with all that gear


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

W8 a minute said:


> 1) It's not the customers obligation to buy from you. It's your job to convince the customer. Who's fault is it if you can't close the deal? Not the customer's I assure you. God forbid a customer might want to shop around or educate themselves before making a purchase.
> 
> It seems you expect us to buy from you because we owe you something? Unfortunately this is the attitude of most retailers. I can tell you without hesitation that I owe you nothing. If potential customers make you sick then maybe it's time to quit?
> 
> ...


1) shop around with other dealers is fine, sport, using a shop to hear things and learn things is another if you have zero intentions to buy from them, 99% of the people on this forum will buy from the cheapest, not the best source, something tells me you are in the 99%

do you owe me something, if you come to me to listen to my gear, ask my advice, learn from me from my past experiences, etc than yes ********* you do owe me something, its called loyalty and not being a little whore wanting to get something for nothing

2) i never said the internet is killing or hurting my business. the internet is my competitor is comical, if you want to buy something from habeeb for cheap thats your perrogative

change my business model, thats funny, going on 13 years of my own home automation business, i cant complain

3) i agree the best will always rise to the top, i know i have

people like you are the problem and do not realize the point of paying a little more for ones experience and expertise, retail shops are typically morons, speciallty shops are not. you should want to pay them there price for being there for you, educating you, listening to you, etc etc

i bet you are the type of guy that goes to a car dealership and thinks you should get 25% off sticker cause you think they are ripping you off


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

Wow. You really seem to hate the general public. Every customer is assumed to be an idiot and we should be thankful you even permit us to purchase equipment from you. Good luck. Now I know why I avoid B&M's

And I don't think any of my comments pertained to home automation nor is every online retailer a "habeeb"

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

W8 a minute said:


> Wow. You really seem to hate the general public. Every customer is assumed to be an idiot and we should be thankful you even permit us to purchase equipment from you. Good luck. Now I know why I avoid B&M's
> 
> And I don't think any of my comments pertained to home automation nor is every online retailer a "habeeb"
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


you twist words, never did i say customers are idiots, perhaps you but not all. never did i say i hate the general public. you said i need to change my business model, i own a home automation company.

you dont buy from b&m's but i bet you use them to audition equipment, dont you


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

Porsche said:


> you twist words, never did i say customers are idiots, perhaps you but not all. never did i say i hate the general public. you said i need to change my business model, i own a home automation company.
> 
> you dont buy from b&m's but i bet you use them to audition equipment, dont you


You win. I didn't realize you were making irrelevant posts on a random topic and using your unrelated business to back up your Internet babblings. I assumed you were intelligent and posting about a business related to the thread. Silly me. 

But while you're here I assume you buy all of your supplies from a local B&M and avoid the lower priced mass merchants like lowes, the internet, or home depot? I would hate to hear about you purchasing saw blades and drill bits from some discount hooligan supplier. You buy from the same place each time regardless of cost. You have never switched suppliers to increase your bottom line, right?

I also assume you don't have an account on eBay or amazon in which you make purchases for personal items either? Other than Internet forums you're totally off the web, right? 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tao Jones (Oct 14, 2010)

What's with the "habeeb"?


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## joemk69 (Dec 3, 2010)

children, children are we in kindergarten? can't we all just get along?


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## Tao Jones (Oct 14, 2010)

There are so many grey areas. Some consumers are fed up with b&ms and vice versa. The stores in my town hardly have any inventory. It's been like this for years. That coupled with sales guys not willing to help and over charging for everything. Then why am I paying the extra money? 
On the other hand, I used to work retail in a music shop. People would come in and get advice for home studio set ups. They wouldnt buy anything. I knew they would use the knowledge to buy online. After a while I started "screening". I could tell most of the time who was going to buy and who wasn't. For the ones that would buy, I would give them 110%. For the Internet shoppers I would tell them to buy it online... It'd be cheaper, but don't expect info/help from me. 
I think most people would like to support the local stores... But with the retail/consumer mentality being the way it is. ("you're ripping me off!"/"you're just window shopping"!) both sides are always on guard alienating each other. I'm fortunate enough to have recently found a local car audio shop that I can trust. He doesn't charge me msrp for most things. When he has to he has to. Hes gotta pay bills too. It was like this since day one. He never BSed me so I take all my business to him. For some small items he's actually told me to save money and buy online.

I think there's just a general lack of trust in commerce. 
Yes, for some it's about saving money. But I think most often it's an issue of trust. I feel as though not too many people take pride in their work. And that 
has put me in a paranoid mind set when it comes to somebody working on my car. I've had bad work done and yes I asked the questions and spoke with the installers. Sometimes it's hard to tell. 

Ack I'm ranting... Just my 2 cents


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

Tao Jones said:


> What's with the "habeeb"?


I got it from this post where Porsche says we all owe him something. No God complex here. 



Porsche said:


> 1) shop around with other dealers is fine, sport, using a shop to hear things and learn things is another if you have zero intentions to buy from them, 99% of the people on this forum will buy from the cheapest, not the best source, something tells me you are in the 99%
> 
> do you owe me something, if you come to me to listen to my gear, ask my advice, learn from me from my past experiences, etc than yes ********* you do owe me something, its called loyalty and not being a little whore wanting to get something for nothing
> 
> ...


This post really set me off. It's chock full of the reasons to avoid a B&M store. Heck, he wants to be paid just for listening to your annoying voice. I would hate to walk into his store knowing he thinks you are an uneducated ape who can't make a decision without him telling you what that decision will be. And how dare you ask for a cheaper price? Just bend over and take it like a man you stupid customer!

Just for the record I would like to state that many online stores start out the same way as B&M stores. They have little more than a store front and a few items to sell. The goal is to GROW and become larger. I remember people bagging on SonicElectronics but now they seem to be a reputable company. I remember (before the internet) people being afraid to send a check to places like Madisound because they didn't trust a mail order company. They grew just like any other business that is run correctly.

There is a reason you can shop on Walmart.com or Target.com. The biggest B&M stores in the world realized they need to compete with the internet.


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## Tao Jones (Oct 14, 2010)

W8 a minute said:


> I got it from this post where Porsche says we all owe him something. No God complex here.


It wasn't directed at you. 

But yeah Porsche, are there a lot of habeebs selling car audio stuff online? I want something cheap.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

if you place no value on your time I guess the internet is the way to go. You have to do the research, comparisons, and make a judgment call on the product. If something goes wrong you have to deal with the shipping/receiving and the arguing over whether or not the merchandise is busted because of a lack of consumer know how or genuine product defect.

There are some people who buy solely online, I believe that these people are still in the minority, their skewed perspective is based solely on their own experience whereas the experience of an actual retailer transcends both the consumer and the sellers perspective, it has to by its nature. Retailers are more able to see the trends than a consumer whose view is myopic to say the least.

In the end, I don't care about people who buy off the internet because as a retailer (in times passed) I didn't need to.

Now as far as qualifying buyers, that is an absolutely essential skill when selling anything. I'm not going to waste a lot of time on a person who I know is not going to buy something from me, because that time is never going to be remunerated. Why should I waste time on somebody who feels entitled to my opinion simply because they are a 'consumer' My answer is, I shouldn't and wouldn't because they are not *MY* consumer. If they were, totally different situation, I would bend over backwards for people I believed would buy something from me.

Sometimes, I would tank a potential sale knowing the deal was going to be a pain in the ass. Some people commenting on this thread fall nicely into that category and no amount of merchandise sold to these people would be worth the time/effort/presence of these folks. Which is fine, there are a million places to buy gear. 

The internets impact on my sales was never noticed. Im sure it was happening but even competing with the internet my bottom line grew consistently every year because people like to be served.

If you feel that buying off the internet is better, for you, then great  there is still a vast majority of people who enjoy the social interaction of buying from somebody they can see and talk to, it makes them feel at ease.

I feel this site isn't representative of the majority of the market simply because it isn't geared towards the majority of the market. I believe this fact skews the perception of those with no actual industry experience and makes them look terribly ignorant when they post on such a topic, which is fine because their ignorance is their bliss.. but funny because it is pretty far removed from reality as it is.


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## hungry_eye (Apr 25, 2010)

To put things into perspective, I live in Canada, and only wish you could buy stuff at MSRP. There is an additional distributors that seem to raise the price. For example, a JL w7 costs over $700. No one can legitimately charge such a price, yet they do. Yet to cost of decks are not over inflated. 

I have a friend who works for a distributor and I am told the majority of mark up is made on entry level cheaper products and their cost for high end audio is less of a mark up. To me, it just makes me wonder how stores can stay in business by charing this much for something you can buy online for a fraction of this price.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

BoostedNihilist said:


> if you place no value on your time I guess the internet is the way to go. You have to do the research, comparisons, and make a judgment call on the product. If something goes wrong you have to deal with the shipping/receiving and the arguing over whether or not the merchandise is busted because of a lack of consumer know how or genuine product defect.
> 
> 
> I feel this site isn't representative of the majority of the market simply because it isn't geared towards the majority of the market.


Exactly.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

hungry_eye said:


> To put things into perspective, I live in Canada, and only wish you could buy stuff at MSRP. There is an additional distributors that seem to raise the price. For example, a JL w7 costs over $700. No one can legitimately charge such a price, yet they do. Yet to cost of decks are not over inflated.
> 
> I have a friend who works for a distributor and I am told the majority of mark up is made on entry level cheaper products and their cost for high end audio is less of a mark up. To me, it just makes me wonder how stores can stay in business by charing this much for something you can buy online for a fraction of this price.


Do you even know the dealer cost on a JL Audio w7 woofer? The 13inch has a MSRP of $1200. If you can buy it for $700, you're getting a deal  Where can you buy it for a fraction online from an _authorized_ dealer?:laugh:

The majority of markup is NOT on the entry level products. On the contrary, we make very little on entry level products. How much money do you think is actually being made on a $99 woofer or $69 headunit? Much more money is made on the higher priced/ higher level goods.


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## Miniboom (Jul 15, 2010)

Angrywhopper said:


> Do you even know the dealer cost on a JL Audio w7 woofer? The 13inch has a MSRP of $1200. If you can buy it for $700, you're getting a deal  Where can you buy it for a fraction online from an _authorized_ dealer?:laugh:
> 
> The majority of markup is NOT on the entry level products. On the contrary, we make very little on entry level products. How much money do you think is actually being made on a $99 woofer or $69 headunit? Much more money is made on the higher priced/ higher level goods.





Angrywhopper said:


> Do you even know the dealer cost on a JL Audio w7 woofer? The 13inch has a MSRP of $1200. If you can buy it for $700, you're getting a deal  Where can you buy it for a fraction online from an _authorized_ dealer?:laugh:
> 
> The majority of markup is NOT on the entry level products. On the contrary, we make very little on entry level products. How much money do you think is actually being made on a $99 woofer or $69 headunit? Much more money is made on the higher priced/ higher level goods.


Why not charge more for the ridiculously cheap entry level stuff and less for the price-inflated higher end stuff?

Not owning or working in a shop, I'll still go on and make the assumption that the smaller the price gap between product "classes", the easier it will be to convince the customer that he's better off buying something much better (and a little more expensive).

As for making money on the high end stuff, do you really think we should pay several 100's of $ extra PER ITEM just to keep an "authorized" dealer alive? As mentioned earlier in this thread, I saved a couple of thousand dollars (!) not buying from an "authorized" dealer (and a little used, though).

*Also, I'd rather see the dealer making money of ALL their customers, not just me because I'm looking to buy high end.*

Anyway, I really think the price difference gives me the "authorization" needed to give my local "authorized" dealers a peak at my very own "authorized" finger.


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## colek42 (Jan 24, 2011)

cgarnes said:


> I own a store in MS, and we don't list anything in the store at MSRP. However, as an authorized dealer we are required to price everything at what is called MAP price (Minimum Advertised Price). We sell most everything we sell at MAP price, and we are successful at making customers understand what the extra money is for when they buy from us versus eBay or any other website. If the internet has done anything positive it has FORCED brick and mortar stores (like me) to provide superior customer service to people that actually walk through our doors. I will say that if a business is willing to provide the service that they should have been providing all along they will be successful selling at a reasonable profit point.


True, I was willing to go in and drop $2500 on an install. Simply put the customer service was horrible, they didn't give me options, were not knowledgeable, etc. It is like he didn't want to sell me a system! So I said F* it and decided it may cost more in time, but will be much more fun to dive back into it and learn it all over again. The last time I messed around with car audio was probably 8 years ago. Now I have all my pieces on their way. My system will sound much better, be much louder, and it will be the way I want it not the way somebody thinks I want it. But, I am also an engineer so I get a kick out of this stuff.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

colek42 said:


> True, I was willing to go in and drop $2500 on an install. Simply put the customer service was horrible, they didn't give me options, were not knowledgeable, etc. It is like he didn't want to sell me a system! So I said F* it and decided it may cost more in time, but will be much more fun to dive back into it and learn it all over again. The last time I messed around with car audio was probably 8 years ago. Now I have all my pieces on their way. My system will sound much better, be much louder, and it will be the way I want it not the way somebody thinks I want it. But, I am also an engineer so I get a kick out of this stuff.


The brick and mortar stores wonder why they keep losing business to the internet, besides better prices, it has a lot to do with what you stated. Now a days, great customer services is all they have left to hang on too


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## colek42 (Jan 24, 2011)

trojan fan said:


> The brick and mortar stores wonder why they keep losing business to the internet, besides better prices, it has a lot to do with what you stated. Now a days, great customer services is all they have left to hang on too


Exactly! Here is the long story.

I go in and the power cuts out for the entire place and the guy tells me that he has to close. Now I live half an hour away and tell him that I just want to talk about what we can do with my truck...2010 F150, not some ****ty 3k beater. He continues to try to set me up with a bunch of RF Prime crap. Ask him about using a sound processor like a 3sixty.2 or something else and he has no idea what I'm talking about and the owner knows more and will give me a call as he deals more with the home audio. Well the owner never calls, I send him an email. He just sends me an invoice with the same RF Prime crap at MSRP.

Go to another shop, tell them my budget. Guy tells me the Audio guy has the day off and that I can leave my info and he will give me a call. Nothing!

My only other option was to go to a big box, and that sure as hell was not happening. The only time I ever bought from them was when I worked at CircuitCity back when they were around and I got my awesome at cost or special manuf. discount.

So unless I wanted to go somewhere 2 hours away and try to figure out how to deal with dropping off my truck there my only option was to rely on myself. Now with the time I have put into just research I would have gladly paid money. I'm busy and my time is worth a good bit of money. But alas, I start reading here and a few other places and I'm hooked again, just with a bigger budget this time.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

colek42 said:


> Exactly! Here is the long story.
> 
> I go in and the power cuts out for the entire place and the guy tells me that he has to close. Now I live half an hour away and tell him that I just want to talk about what we can do with my truck...2010 F150, not some ****ty 3k beater. He continues to try to set me up with a bunch of RF Prime crap. Ask him about using a sound processor like a 3sixty.2 or something else and he has no idea what I'm talking about and the owner knows more and will give me a call as he deals more with the home audio. Well the owner never calls, I send him an email. He just sends me an invoice with the same RF Prime crap at MSRP.
> 
> ...



They try hard to push products with the highest profit margins, over looking what the customer really wants, guys on this site will deny it


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## PaulD (Nov 16, 2006)

trojan fan said:


> They try hard to push products with the highest profit margins, over looking what the customer really wants, guys on this site will deny it


It used to be like that, now I just don't think they know any better. Most car audio shop kids wouldn't know an SQ system if they heard one - they would immediately look for the MP3 player and wanna crank up the bass 40 dB.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

the retailers are a product of their customer base.. dumb customers = dumb retailers.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

PaulD said:


> It used to be like that, now I just don't think they know any better. Most car audio shop kids wouldn't know an SQ system if they heard one - they would immediately look for the MP3 player and wanna crank up the bass 40 dB.





BoostedNihilist said:


> the retailers are a product of their customer base.. dumb customers = dumb retailers.



I have to agree with both of you


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## PaulD (Nov 16, 2006)

sounds like a vicious cycle .. no one knows or cares about SQ or basic car styereo in general , you have to hire SOMEBODY, those somebodies know nothing so they cannot enlighten the customers .. pretty soon you have ignorant people trying to help ignorant people. Sadly, when someone comes in that really DOES what they are talking about, the rest will look at him/her like they are stupid.


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

things change,
internet is to blame for everything!!!!
bad spelling
newspaper companies going out of business
book printing going out of business
car audio shops cant charge as much
computer stores are going out of business.


this is a very strange time to put it simply:
people want MORE for LESS
and companies want to give LESS for MORE.

it created imballance.
its like a kid looking at the chocolate cake but parents tell him he cant eat it so the kid starts freaking out after a while and throwing a fit.
thats the situation between the store and the customer.


alot of people REFUSE(or otherwise ignore) the fact that shops need money to run.

people think that when salesman charges him 30% on top of warehouse price hes ripping him off.
the shop owner didnt open a business to be a fkn santa claus and give away **** for free.
that 30% is broken down to employee paycecks/utilities bill for the business/buying more products/ insurance/ upgrades/maintenance and many other expenses.

so when some deuchebag comes in and argues about the price i start ignoring him.

i do bargain but i also understand the other side and dont throw a fit when i dont get the prce i ask.
bargain is an agreement on price so if a salesman agrees on your price it is fair, but if you cry and ***** then its a different story.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Shops can blame whoever they want to blame but they still have to follow a simple formula... Adapt and overcome by figuring out a way to compete with who/what ever offers the lower prices OR close the doors! All too many local "custom" shops have been closing their doors because they would rather sit around and whine about how the internet is kicking their ass. I say "custom" loosely because if it doesn't drop into one of their pre-fab solutions, 90% of the local "custom" shops don't want to do the install.

[Begin Rant]
I consulted several local shops when I did the system in my old 97 Civic and in my wife's former 2006 Tribute. Two of the three tried to sell me coaxial speakers telling me that components wouldn't work in either vehicle due to the factory tweeter. They actually sat there and told me with a straight face that coaxial drivers firing into the ankles would be better off than using component speakers in vehicles with a factory tweeter location.

Before I purchased my Alpine CDA-9887, another local shop tried to sell me on a Kenwood eXcelon receiver, stating that it could do full active with time alignment just like the Alpine. I like how he called front/rear highpass with a subwoofer output "full active."

Last example: The best was when a local shop sold this kid on a 5 farad capacitor to run a 2,000 watt RMS system in his 90 something Civic hatch. Yes, they actually told him that the 5 farad capacitor would make up for his 80 amp alternator trying to output 200 amps to feed the system. He called me and asked what I thought of it before purchasing the capacitor, then went with the shop over what I told him. Later, he called me again after two or three alternators died, and asked me how I overcame the itty bitty alternator and Honda's ELD circuit.
[End Rant]

With advice like the previously mentioned, that is why I don't deal with local shops. Poor customer service with horrific, and many times ABOVE MSRP, pricing makes me not want to step ONE foot in the door. Oh well, at least they can still prey on the uninformed.


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## PaulD (Nov 16, 2006)

wer had a shop here that used to routinely do that .. if the MSRP was say $300, the sign would say

MSPR $350
Your Low Price $300

I liked the guy but I would laugh inside when I would see that stuff


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## RongGe (Oct 25, 2010)

I feel bad for the guy who thinks that giving a demo or advice should entitle them a guarentee business deal. Rather than to blame the customer for shopping else where because they were offered a better pricing, if they felt that the time they spent with the customer was really worth something then they can simply charge an initial consultation fee.

Car audio in general is not difficult to learn. The total training required is minimum compared to other fields. Installation techiniques and instructions that range from beginner to advance can be found just about everywhere. Advice and suggestions can be found on the internet too.

With that being said, why should a customer pay 110-150% more for shopping locally? If it is because the extra money is to keep the local business alive, then they might as close their doors and jump into another field. A field where their trade secrets can't be learned so easily and a field where real training is required.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

If you paid MSRP, then you just got ripped off... Do some homework and save yourself some money, don't be afraid to negotiate


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## djcantr (Mar 1, 2011)

I might be in the minority. I don't mind paying a little bit more (within reason) than I would online in exchange for the service I get as well as tapping into their knowledge. I like spending locally as well.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

djcantr said:


> I might be in the minority. I don't mind paying a little bit more (within reason) than I would online in exchange for the service I get as well as tapping into their knowledge. I like spending locally as well.



The last of a dying breed...LOL


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Wow, with exception to a few this thread has turned from bad to worse. Although someone hit it on the head ... people want more for less. So if we reverse this, can I expect you to pay me more for less labor ? I am sure all you would drop you jaw at such a thought.

Yes, let's All learn how to do it ourselves because it really is that simple. I mean after all I only spent nearly 100k in tools for nothing. A trip to walmart and few hours on the internet I can install anything ! Let's follow that same train of thought for a moment though ..


I can also go online and learn how to rewire my entire house
I can learn how to dental work for my kids
I can learn how to put on a new roof
I can learn how to deliver a baby !

I can, but I won't. Why ? Simple .. everyone has their field of work. I hire someone with *Experience *and I actually *appreciate *what they do for me. Apparently others make it quite clear they do not.

Do I expect something from somebody if I demo for them and talk to them for hours about a potential setup ? YES ! Some gratitude. Do I feel that I deserve the sale ? That is up to the client if I did my job well enough. However for them to WASTE my time having the full intentions all along to go find it elsewhere UNAUTHORIZED on the net ? Yes, yes, I do deserve something for my time. If they visit another shop and buy it there, well then I didn't do my job well enough and shame on me.

It is funny though, I have seen a few people, spend three days shopping, countless hours on the phone and web, drive about 2hrs round trip and they saved less than a gross of $25. I actually find a great deal of humor in that. Since they A: Feel that their own time must be worth Nothing at all and gas/tolls is apparently free. The best part is when the said product doesn't work and they have to take the trip all over again. Karma .. she IS my best friend.

"If you paid SRP for something, you got ripped off". Well first, who exactly defines 'ripped off' ?? Have you put gas in your car recently ? Well guess what, YOU got ripped off ! That new shirt from Macys .. yea, you got ripped off. Well according to your theory anyway. Next time you catch the Flu, make sure you negotiate with your doctor on his charges, bring it right on over to CVS for your meds too.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

djcantr said:


> I might be in the minority. I don't mind paying a little bit more (within reason) than I would online in exchange for the service I get as well as tapping into their knowledge. I like spending locally as well.


Sincerely ... hats off to you sir.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> Wow, with exception to a few this thread has turned from bad to worse. Although someone hit it on the head ... people want more for less. So if we reverse this, can I expect you to pay me more for less labor ? I am sure all you would drop you jaw at such a thought.
> 
> Yes, let's All learn how to do it ourselves because it really is that simple. I mean after all I only spent nearly 100k in tools for nothing. A trip to walmart and few hours on the internet I can install anything ! Let's follow that same train of thought for a moment though ..
> 
> ...


So, are you trying to say that I should have paid $1,500 plus tax for the JL Audio Stealthbox to "support" my local shop when Crutchfield shipped it to me for $950?


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

ChrisB said:


> So, are you trying to say that I should have paid $1,500 plus tax for the JL Audio Stealthbox to "support" my local shop when Crutchfield shipped it to me for $950?


If you actually read what I just wrote, you would not need an answer to that. Where in any of what I wrote would lead to believe such a thing ?

Oh and ..


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> Yes, let's All learn how to do it ourselves because it really is that simple. I mean after all I only spent nearly 100k in tools for nothing. A trip to walmart and few hours on the internet I can install anything ! Let's follow that same train of thought for a moment though ..
> 
> 
> I can also go online and learn how to rewire my entire house
> ...


I can definitely understand your point of view, and it definitely has application to the majority of people who are interested in aftermarket car audio, but you're most likely preaching to the wrong crowd here, considering it's a DIY site.  Granted, many people here may not have the skill level you do when it comes to installation, but the majority of us are interested in buying our own gear for as inexpensive as possible (I buy almost all of my gear used) and doing our own installs. I can sympathize with someone who does it for a living, spent tons of money on tools and education, only to get slapped in the face when some 18 year old kid wants to buy from Sonicelectronix instead, but you've got to understand your audience here as well. I would never hire someone to install any audio gear in any of my vehicles; I enjoy the planning, the build process, the gear selection, the tuning, and the finished product. It's all part of the hobby for me, and it's very rewarding. If there is something I can't do, I'll come to a site like this and learn how to do it, or I'll modify my install plans. Since finding car audio sites on the internet a few years back, I've built several blowthroughs, learned how to work with fiberglass, discovered techniques on cleaning up installation (techflex, heatshrink, etc), and learned a million other things I had no idea about previously. All for free (well, for my time).

Are there people out there who want to drop off their car and pick it up finished? Obviously- it's why you're in business still. With the internet being a MASSIVE source of free knowledge and information these days though, most B&M shops are going to be a thing of the past. The information here may not be as personalized, but I've learned more for free from the experts here and other sites than I've ever learned from some guy at Kustom Kar Sound, Ultimate Electronics, Audio Express or Unique Car Audio. I decided the other day I wanted to install a pair of JBL W15GTi in an upcoming build. 10 years ago, my only option would have been retail at a local shop, unless a friend of a friend knew someone who got the hook-up. That's $650/woofer plus tax, install, enclosure, etc. Instead, I jump on the internet, take 5 minutes to post a WTB ad in the Classifieds section on several car audio sites, mix that with a few creative google searches that bring up Craigslist ads all over the country, and within 2 days I have a pair of mint woofers for under $500 shipped. I could buy and blow three pair of woofers for what it would have cost me to buy one new pair authorized, and that's assuming the shop would have warrantied them instead of giving me some runaround. Further, my local Woodworker's Source offers a 10% off coupon on their website for signing up for their e-newsletter, so I get my 1" MDF for a discount. 

The bottom line is, there are people who do not enjoy the process. They do not want to learn how to do something themselves, and it's worth it to them to pay retail to someone who does. The people who DON'T fit that description gravitate toward sites like DIYMA.


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

you kinda chopped up my idea a bit
"Although someone hit it on the head ... people want more for less" it has different meaning when its complete
people want more for less = shops want to get more for less. this equation is not possible.
this means each side wants to gain more than give. who is gonna make up the difference?

i do also TRY my best to support the shops that have done good to me by buying there once in a while and usually i dont argue with the price and if i can afford it i buy it.





lets look at it this way for those who are after cheapest price.

when you buy at the store you might pay a bit more.
1 you have a warranty through the store and dont have to pay return shipping.
2 you can see the product you are getting
3 shop can demo it for you (most of the time)
4 you have it right away and theres no(out of stock, will ship in a few weeks, DOA, i swear i shipped it last week IDK what happened ups must have lost it)



second

theres those of us who call ourselver audio inthisiasts
you can find sources and get equipment yourself and do the work because you know what you re doing.
and occasionally we go to a local shop for some advice.


and theres reglar people who dont know anything about car sudio.
they need a professional who can get their stereo replaced. and thats what they pay for( experience) and thats who the local shops are for.


when you go to legal advisor do you ask if he can give you some legal advise for free?
without giving a slightest **** that he spent about 300-400 thousand dollars to pay for his university degree?
or maybe they just said oh noews its ok braw well just edjucate you for free...


and finally to give you the last example the simplest one of all.


you open lil coffee shop. and you work there yourself cuz you dont want to pay sexy baristas to work for you( fak them you re sexy enough youll do ok)
after your calculations you spend about 1.50 per coffee cup to make it( including utilities, supplies,machines, and other business costs)

so why wouldnt you sell your coffee for a 1.55 a cup? and make 5 cents profit.

since thats what you want local shops to do for you. but WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR THEM? to keep them in business.


its sad that this topic even have to be explained. because deep down alot of people understand this but they are in complete denial, like a donkey that knows its gonna get whipped but doesnt move.

kinda like buying stolen parts. you just ignore the fact that you bought a part that belongs to someone else. but when your **** gets stolen you quickly change your opinion about buying stolen parts.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

mikey7182 said:


> I can definitely understand your point of view, and it definitely has application to the majority of people who are interested in aftermarket car audio, but you're most likely preaching to the wrong crowd here, considering it's a DIY site.  Granted, many people here may not have the skill level you do when it comes to installation, but the majority of us are interested in buying our own gear for as inexpensive as possible (I buy almost all of my gear used) and doing our own installs. I can sympathize with someone who does it for a living, spent tons of money on tools and education, only to get slapped in the face when some 18 year old kid wants to buy from Sonicelectronix instead, but you've got to understand your audience here as well. I would never hire someone to install any audio gear in any of my vehicles; I enjoy the planning, the build process, the gear selection, the tuning, and the finished product. It's all part of the hobby for me, and it's very rewarding. If there is something I can't do, I'll come to a site like this and learn how to do it, or I'll modify my install plans. Since finding car audio sites on the internet a few years back, I've built several blowthroughs, learned how to work with fiberglass, discovered techniques on cleaning up installation (techflex, heatshrink, etc), and learned a million other things I had no idea about previously. All for free (well, for my time).
> 
> Are there people out there who want to drop off their car and pick it up finished? Obviously- it's why you're in business still. With the internet being a MASSIVE source of free knowledge and information these days though, most B&M shops are going to be a thing of the past. The information here may not be as personalized, but I've learned more for free from the experts here and other sites than I've ever learned from some guy at Kustom Kar Sound, Ultimate Electronics, Audio Express or Unique Car Audio. I decided the other day I wanted to install a pair of JBL W15GTi in an upcoming build. 10 years ago, my only option would have been retail at a local shop, unless a friend of a friend knew someone who got the hook-up. That's $650/woofer plus tax, install, enclosure, etc. Instead, I jump on the internet, take 5 minutes to post a WTB ad in the Classifieds section on several car audio sites, mix that with a few creative google searches that bring up Craigslist ads all over the country, and within 2 days I have a pair of mint woofers for under $500 shipped. I could buy and blow three pair of woofers for what it would have cost me to buy one new pair authorized, and that's assuming the shop would have warrantied them instead of giving me some runaround. Further, my local Woodworker's Source offers a 10% off coupon on their website for signing up for their e-newsletter, so I get my 1" MDF for a discount.
> 
> The bottom line is, there are people who do not enjoy the process. They do not want to learn how to do something themselves, and it's worth it to them to pay retail to someone who does. The people who DON'T fit that description gravitate toward sites like DIYMA.



Point taken and appreciated. Please understand though I was speaking overall in general, not specific to this site. However good I may be at something, there is somebody better, and still someone better than that person. Hell it could even be a DIYer ! 23yrs ago that is how I started ! 

Many of my close friends started out as customers, they later became regulars and then friends, some even employees. So I certainly see your point. However what the person mentioned above seemed to be encouraging everyone to go out and do it themselves, find the parts themselves, learn themselves. As you pointed out not everyone has the time, energy or even capacity to do so.

I take a great deal of pride in what I do and many times I myself encourage people that are actually eager to learn and want to work on their own car to do so. But to blindly tell everyone this is what they should do is blatant ignorance. Hell if that were the case, we would all be geniuses in Every field and never need another person for anything. Of course this would take a few lifetimes to achieve.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

fuzzysig said:


> and finally to give you the last example the simplest one of all.
> 
> you open lil coffee shop. and you work there yourself cuz you dont want to pay sexy baristas to work for you( fak them you re sexy enough youll do ok)
> after your calculations you spend about 1.50 per coffee cup to make it( including utilities, supplies,machines, and other business costs)
> ...


While I would argue that the margin comparisons are off, I understand your point. The flawed reasoning here is the presumption that the coffee maker is the only one who determines his profit margins. What about the coffee shop across the street that offers the same, great-tasting coffee for $1.49? Or the coffee shop down the street who sells coffee for $1.75 and throws in a bagel? What if $1.55 is all his coffee is worth to the local patrons? The guy who spends $1.50 making each cup of coffee has a responsibility to stay competitive. That may include trying to reduce his overhead to increase his profit margin, rather than charging the customer more. It might include a reward card that gives loyalty discounts to repeat customers. 

Obviously every business has overhead, but I've seen markup on quite a bit of gear and it is borderline absurd. The typical minimum markup is 100%, meaning dealer cost on a component set is $300 and MSRP is $600. A local dealer's cost on the Alpine SPX-17PRO a few years back was $274 (he showed me the sheet). MSRP was $650. **** that. Obviously this varies, but it's a decent rule of thumb. So it's argued that this markup is needed to cover the stores' overhead and maintain profitability. What about the $80/hr the shop charges for install, or the $700 they charge you for custom kicks? What about the $3 wire harness and $4 dash kit they charge you $50 for? All of these things generate revenue. The bottom line is, like it or not, as a business you have to stay competitive. If you can't stay competitive AND profitable, you go out of business. It might suck, but that's how it works.


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## fuzzysig (Feb 4, 2010)

theres also a lil thing about how much your time is worth.

alot of people loose sight of the cost when they are chasing after that 5 dollar discount.

if you re making 60-300 dollars an hour in your field of work, it wouldnt make sense for you to try to spend hours and hours of your time doing it yourself in order to save 10-50 dollars on it.

if an hour of installer's time is worth 60 dollars (shop fee) and an hour of your time is worth 300 then....


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> Point taken and appreciated. Please understand though I was speaking overall in general, not specific to this site. However good I may be at something, there is somebody better, and still someone better than that person. Hell it could even be a DIYer ! 23yrs ago that is how I started !
> 
> Many of my close friends started out as customers, they later became regulars and then friends, some even employees. So I certainly see your point. However what the person mentioned above seemed to be encouraging everyone to go out and do it themselves, find the parts themselves, learn themselves. As you pointed out not everyone has the time, energy or even capacity to do so.
> 
> I take a great deal of pride in what I do and many times I myself encourage people that are actually eager to learn and want to work on their own car to do so. But to blindly tell everyone this is what they should do is blatant ignorance. Hell if that were the case, we would all be geniuses in Every field and never need another person for anything. Of course this would take a few lifetimes to achieve.


And that's what I figured. I have no desire to fix my leaky roof, much less learn how. It's why I called my landlord this afternoon instead.  Like I said, the majority of people out there who want to add a subwoofer or navigation don't know how to do it themselves, and it is more likely worth it for them to pay retail or at least pay someone like yourself for the installation, even if they bought the gear online for cheaper. God knows all we need are more kryptonitewhite car fires...  We're a niche group here, and I've literally invested thousands of hours reading and absorbing and learning and trying (and failing) and trying again. Not everyone gives that much of a **** about car audio. Hopefully enough people find value in the services you offer to keep you in business for a long time.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

fuzzysig said:


> theres also a lil thing about how much your time is worth.
> 
> alot of people loose sight of the cost when they are chasing after that 5 dollar discount.
> 
> ...


Anyone who's making $60-$300 an hour in their field of work probably doesn't give two ****s about researching anything for hours trying to save $10. Those are the people who go to Don and say "I have a budget of $13,000 for my new S-Class. Here's the keys. Make it go boom-boom."


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

mikey7182 said:


> Anyone who's making $60-$300 an hour in their field of work probably doesn't give two ****s about researching anything for hours trying to save $10. Those are the people who go to Don and say "I have a budget of $13,000 for my new S-Class. Here's the keys. Make it go boom-boom."


:laugh::laugh::laugh: Funny as ****, but oh so true ! I actually get briefly shopped by some of them too ! Oddly enough I have a 90% close rate with em. Usually their answers are .. fair pricing, you came 'highly recommended', 
you asked me a ton of questions about what *I wanted* and didn't try to sell me just anything. Usually the last one is their top answer.

I will say though, unless it is their first time, the more wealthy tend to be the more skeptical. Reasoning is simple .. they Have been burnt before. It's a general, but shameful stereotype that many shops prey on .. they see a $100K+ vehicle and their eyes turn green. I treat all alike, whether a basic remote start, HU or a full blown setup they are all treated the same ..


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

6spdcoupe said:


> :laugh::laugh::laugh: Funny as ****, but oh so true ! I actually get briefly shopped by some of them too ! Oddly enough I have a 90% close rate with em. Usually their answers are .. fair pricing, you came 'highly recommended',
> you asked me a ton of questions about what *I wanted* and didn't try to sell me just anything. Usually the last one is their top answer.
> 
> I will say though, unless it is their first time, the more wealthy tend to be the more skeptical. Reasoning is simple .. they Have been burnt before. It's a general, but shameful stereotype that many shops prey on .. they see a $100K+ vehicle and their eyes turn green. I treat all alike, whether a basic remote start, HU or a full blown setup they are all treated the same ..


I used to manage a store for a Verizon authorized dealer. I had a guy pull up once in a brand new 911 Turbo and he walked in all uppity like he had something to prove. He probably figured I was going to pitch him the most expensive phone we offered (Treo 700WX at the time) with all the data packages and accessories. Instead, I started out with the free flip phone by Samsung. You could tell he was taken aback because he knew I'd seen him pull up.

I learned a long time ago that there are plenty of people with money who don't flaunt it, and plenty of people with NO money who DO. I didn't look at him and think "man, that guy is rich!" I looked at him and thought "man, that guy has an expensive car." As a salesman and a person, that was an important distinction to make, and it allowed me to sell the customer what they actually wanted rather than what I thought they needed.

He ended up buying the Treo along with $100 in accessories, and sent his twin brother in the next day who pulled up in a new Jag (he was a dentist and the twin was an orthodontist). I still remember the Frost brothers.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

djcantr said:


> I might be in the minority. I don't mind paying a little bit more (within reason) than I would online in exchange for the service I get as well as tapping into their knowledge. I like spending locally as well.


You can come to my studio anytime


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## djcantr (Mar 1, 2011)

Porsche said:


> You can come to my studio anytime


How do people not see the value in that? I'm buying a HU locally for $950. I probably could have shopped around online and saved $50. The local shop is installing it for $50 plus parts. For that, it's not worth my time to spend a good part of the day installing it when I can be working on other portions of my install that would be much more expensive for the shop to do. Any time I have a problem with it I can go to him for warranty or troubleshooting. If I need help tuning he'll give me some guidance. The extra $50 is a good value to me.


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

djcantr said:


> How do people not see the value in that? I'm buying a HU locally for $950. I probably could have shopped around online and saved $50. The local shop is installing it for $50 plus parts. For that, it's not worth my time to spend a good part of the day installing it when I can be working on other portions of my install that would be much more expensive for the shop to do. Any time I have a problem with it I can go to him for warranty or troubleshooting. If I need help tuning he'll give me some guidance. The extra $50 is a good value to me.


I usually save waaaaaay more than 5% by shopping the internet. And I don't know of any shops that install for free. Even a simple install kit that cost $7 online cost $30 or $40 at a B&M.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

GRIFTER9931 said:


> I have read so many threads bashing a company for having an expensive product. Whether it be a Sub or an Amp or speaker etc...
> I can't remember the last time I paid mrsp for anything, and all my equipment is purchased from many authorized dealers.
> 
> Just look at all the threads that specifically targeted @ JL bashing for example. I don't get it, i know they (JL) have some of the more pricey gear on the market. It's up to the consumer to make an educated financial decision based on what he/she can afford, and really not be lazy and actually go out and do the research on the products for them selves.
> ...


JL gear is one of the harder ones to find below MSRP to be honest, it was a horible example lol. 

ive only ever paid msrp once, and it was for a discontinued product, and the only reason it was sold to me at msrp was because they were so hard to find at that point.


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## 000zero (Mar 12, 2011)

I'm all for supporting my local dealer as long as I know that they know what they're talking about, unfortunately shops where this is the case are very rare. The majority of shops just want to sell you what they make the most money off.

However, I'll admit there are times where I opt to buy gear off the internet and it is mostly due to me being a DIYer. Manufacturers will only honor the warrantyif it is bought AND installed by an authorized dealer. So they want me to pay full ticket and the price of the install? This doesn't make sense to me for something as simple as an amp or sub install when I have all of the wires ran already, even more so when I get the product for half price on ebay. I know its a risk but there is also a risk that the manufacturer can say 'oh you installed it yourself so were not going to honor the warranty', so for me it just depends on the situation. Also, even if I trust a shop I still want to install it myself, I might mess up and break some gear but once I figure it out I will never have to pay someone to install that particular product for me again. Another thing is I like to learn how to do this stuff it is a hobby of mine. If something is not right or I want to experiment with some settings I don't want to have to take my car into the shop every time. So even if I break a couple of items I buy I feel the knowledge I gain from the process is worth more then the item I broke, because you can bet I wont make the same mistake twice.


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## TheBigKahuna (Mar 14, 2011)

The days of online buying are going to come to an end soon. All the major companies, Kicker, JL, Memphis are all working on getting their products pulled off of the internet. The sales of their items at lower prices is diminishing the value of the product. Which in turn makes them lose dealers because nobody wants to sell a product they cant make any money at all off of. So no dealers means less sales for these companies. There is alot of money that go into these products. Alot of people think oh, this amp has a few circuits and processor boards in them, cant be worth more than a $100 or $200 in materials. What people dont realize is the 500 people working to design that product, or the countless hours in testing, and making changes to the parts. No one is saying parts should be marked ridiculously, but there needs to be some profit margin. Yeah maybe a stereo shop does make $3k off of 1 install. But its not like those type of sales are everyday, but you darn sure have to pay your employees everyday. We might sell 4 big stereo installs a month. As far as misc product bought online, we have no problem installing it, but when theres a problem with it, dont come crying to us. Its one thing to give good customer service, but a whole other thing to believe were going to support equipment that we dont even back.


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

If Kicker stopped grey market Internet sales they would be out of business in a week.


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## jam0o0 (Nov 30, 2010)

internet sails aren't going anywhere imo. the low overhead business model works. the fact that returns are harder means fewer people bother with small things. internet store fronts are way cheaper to run. as soon as i can't get something online it's off my list of "available". 90% of the local car audio shops around here have gone out of business since i got into this hobby. there is a reason. 

i really cant understand why car audio has such a low average sale price vers MSRP. are any other industries like this? cars, steel, computers, tires, etc.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

TheBigKahuna said:


> The days of online buying are going to come to an end soon. All the major companies, Kicker, JL, Memphis are all working on getting their products pulled off of the internet. The sales of their items at lower prices is diminishing the value of the product. Which in turn makes them lose dealers because nobody wants to sell a product they cant make any money at all off of. So no dealers means less sales for these companies. There is alot of money that go into these products.


The sales of their items at lower prices isn't diminishing the "value" of the product; since when is "value" directly proportional to "markup"? The only thing being diminished by online sales are the profits of B&M stores. And you're right in that these manufacturers will lose B&M dealers, but it's not because the dealers have tons of other options to choose from; it's because they go out of business. Sure, there are still a few companies left who carefully guard online sales and their MSRP, but most of them are high end and proprietary anyway, like Zapco, Genesis, etc. No dealers doesn't mean less sales for anyone; it simply means the bulk of the sales are transitioning to the online arena. 

Like is mentioned above, if companies like Kicker, Memphis, Kenwood, Pioneer, Alpine, and JBL completely did away with discounted sales on the internet, they'd close shop in a week. The ball is already rolling. People aren't going magically start paying retail at a B&M when they paid 60% of retail (and ZERO tax) at SonicElectronix last week for the same gear; they're going to go with another manufacturer who's still available on the internet. The only way for this to work would be if all the companies got together and agreed to cease internet sales, and that simply is not going to happen because they'd be shooting themselves in the foot financially. 

This isn't 1998. The gear sold on the internet doesn't fall off the back of a truck. It's not "grey-market" anymore. The majority of gear sold by places like SonicElectronix and Onlinecarstereo is provided directly from the manufacturers, whether they want to admit it or not. It HAS to be, if for no other reason than the sheer volume of gear available and sold by these places. Manufacturers go where the money is, and they're not going to sacrifice the majority of their revenue stream to protect the evermore obsolete network of B&M dealers. It's not a coincidence that places like Ultimate Electronics and Circuit City have both gone out of business in the last 2 years. Online sales haven't just affected car audio. 

I just bought a pair of Kenwood XR-4S refurbs for $360 shipped. They came with a 90 day warranty. In order to justify purchasing them at a B&M instead, they would BOTH have to go bad 3 times and I'd have to fund the replacements myself. B&M shops still have their place in the market, but with the internet knowledge base, the DIY crowd, and heavily discounted online sales, their customer base is growing smaller by the day.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

mikey7182 said:


> The sales of their items at lower prices isn't diminishing the "value" of the product; since when is "value" directly proportional to "markup"? The only thing being diminished by online sales are the profits of B&M stores. And you're right in that these manufacturers will lose B&M dealers, but it's not because the dealers have tons of other options to choose from; it's because they go out of business. Sure, there are still a few companies left who carefully guard online sales and their MSRP, but most of them are high end and proprietary anyway, like Zapco, Genesis, etc. No dealers doesn't mean less sales for anyone; it simply means the bulk of the sales are transitioning to the online arena.
> 
> Like is mentioned above, if companies like Kicker, Memphis, Kenwood, Pioneer, Alpine, and JBL completely did away with discounted sales on the internet, they'd close shop in a week. The ball is already rolling. People aren't going magically start paying retail at a B&M when they paid 60% of retail (and ZERO tax) at SonicElectronix last week for the same gear; they're going to go with another manufacturer who's still available on the internet. The only way for this to work would be if all the companies got together and agreed to cease internet sales, and that simply is not going to happen because they'd be shooting themselves in the foot financially.
> 
> ...


I was in a discussion like this about a year ago. 

First of all, B&M stores will always exist. The DIY community is very small compared to the general car audio buying market. Not everyone has the time/patience to lookup products on the internet or read a forum everyday for hours. Many would rather walk into a store, tell somebody what they want, and come back the next day to pick up their car complete and ready to go. If you're taking your executives out to lunch on Monday, you can't have the tweeter hanging out of the pod and the rear deck torn out sitting in your garage. Also, there are many people that are in a place in their life where they can afford to have someone else do the job for them. I know my father would rather spend his time with his family or working on his investments than to save a few dollars here and there. It's just simply not worth it when he has more important things going on his life.

Second, it's in the manufacturer's best interests to keep B&M dealers alive. No im not talking about HAT or Genesis or Sundown..these are very small companys compared to Alpine/Kicker/RF etc... They barely sell any product compared to the big guys and can rely on fanboys from the forums buying their stuff. It's the dealers that are able to demonstrate to a customer why they should purchase product X instead of product Y. How many people are comfortable with spending $1,500 on a set of Focal speakers without feeling, seeing, and hearing them first? Maybe a few here and there on the forums, but generally, people dropping that type of coin want to experience what $1,500 speakers sound like first. The internet can't offer a demonstration. Sonix and whoever else can't either. I feel that many of the higher end company's would either go out of business or be severly hurt without any B&M dealers.

The list goes on and on..if you really think that most consumers are DIYer's and that life would go on normal without B&M dealers, you are way off.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Angrywhopper said:


> I was in a discussion like this about a year ago.
> 
> First of all, B&M stores will always exist. The DIY community is very small compared to the general car audio buying market. Not everyone has the time/patience to lookup products on the internet or read a forum everyday for hours.


Your argument here makes the assumption that the only people who purchase product on the internet as opposed to locally at a B&M are DIY'ers. Again, reference my Ultimate Electronics/Circuit City example. This isn't just about car audio; it's a shift in the general marketplace. Amazon.com saw a significant increase in market share on big screen TVs last year, while retailers like Best Buy lost ground. It doesn't mean they're hanging them in their house themselves, but they're getting the products at a substantial discount by purchasing online, saving sales tax, and paying someone locally to do the labor. The same holds true for many people purchasing car audio product that may not be from the DIY crowd. It doesn't take hours and hours to pick out a $150 headunit with USB. You do a few google searches, read a few reviews, then find the most reputable online source for the cheapest price shipped and you click "Buy." You make it sound like buying on the internet is some treacherous, laborious process.  Now since they'll have to pay someone to do the labor, B&M shops may continue to hang around in that respect, but listen to how many guys are losing local shops. Listen to how many major retailers are going out of business and being replaced by online vendors. How many new car audio B&Ms have opened up in your city in the last 5 years, and how many of them are still in business, let alone thriving? I'm not just making this **** up... it's easily observable.



> Many would rather walk into a store, tell somebody what they want, and come back the next day to pick up their car complete and ready to go. If you're taking your executives out to lunch on Monday, you can't have the tweeter hanging out of the pod and the rear deck torn out sitting in your garage. Also, there are many people that are in a place in their life where they can afford to have someone else do the job for them. I know my father would rather spend his time with his family or working on his investments than to save a few dollars here and there. It's just simply not worth it when he has more important things going on his life.


Spending the time walking into a store is no less time-consuming than doing a google search and ordering something online. I'd rather read the reviews of 147 people who have bought product "x" than listen to some salesman pitch me on whichever subwoofer/BluRay player/LCD TV moves his bonus to the next tier that month. Sure there are people out there (like your father) who will drop off the car. There probably always will be. The point I'm making is how many of those people already buy (or will start buying) their gear online for half off instead of from the shop, then just drop off the car for the install? B&Ms may still be around in 10-20 years, but I think it will be more install-focused than a retail supplier for the audio equipment. As companies like Amazon and other major online retailers eat up more of the market share, it's inevitable.



> Second, it's in the manufacturer's best interests to keep B&M dealers alive. No im not talking about HAT or Genesis or Sundown..these are very small companys compared to Alpine/Kicker/RF etc... They barely sell any product compared to the big guys and can rely on fanboys from the forums buying their stuff. It's the dealers that are able to demonstrate to a customer why they should purchase product X instead of product Y. How many people are comfortable with spending $1,500 on a set of Focal speakers without feeling, seeing, and hearing them first? Maybe a few here and there on the forums, but generally, people dropping that type of coin want to experience what $1,500 speakers sound like first. The internet can't offer a demonstration. Sonix and whoever else can't either. I feel that many of the higher end company's would either go out of business or be severly hurt without any B&M dealers.
> 
> The list goes on and on..if you really think that most consumers are DIYer's and that life would go on normal without B&M dealers, you are way off.


I doubt many people would feel comfortable buying a $1500 set of Focals sight unseen, which is exactly the type of product I mentioned here:



mikey7182 said:


> Sure, there are still a few companies left who carefully guard online sales and their MSRP, but most of them are high end and proprietary anyway, like Zapco, Genesis, etc.


Now, how many of your "average" car audio customers are buying $1500 sets of Focals, compared to, say, $200 Alpine Type R component sets? As mentioned in my quote, there will most likely always be the high end retailers who cater to the more spendy crowd and regulate the online sales of their gear. However, the people who spend that kind of loot on speakers are probably even fewer in numbers, statistically speaking, than the DIY crowd.

We have phones now (myself included) that can scan a barcode at a retailer, do a quick google search and find the lowest prices for the same product online. As these things become more common, retailers are forced to either lower their prices, offer some additional value for their higher prices, or go out of business. 

I bought a Pioneer DEX-P99RS last week for $975 shipped, authorized, and on the internet. MSRP is between $1200-$1350, depending on where you look, plus another $100 or so for sales tax. I posted the link in the Hot Deals, and within 12 hours, 10 more were sold. Find me a single B&M store that can sell/has sold ELEVEN $1,000 headunits in a single business day.  Did it somehow devalue the headunit, because an online retailer with less overhead made $200 off my sale instead of some B&M making $600, and Uncle Sam pocketing an additional Benjamin?


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## Eastman474 (Jan 8, 2010)

mikey7182 said:


> I used to manage a store for a Verizon authorized dealer. I had a guy pull up once in a brand new 911 Turbo and he walked in all uppity like he had something to prove. He probably figured I was going to pitch him the most expensive phone we offered (Treo 700WX at the time) with all the data packages and accessories. Instead, I started out with the free flip phone by Samsung. You could tell he was taken aback because he knew I'd seen him pull up.
> 
> I learned a long time ago that there are plenty of people with money who don't flaunt it, and plenty of people with NO money who DO. I didn't look at him and think "man, that guy is rich!" I looked at him and thought "man, that guy has an expensive car." As a salesman and a person, that was an important distinction to make, and it allowed me to sell the customer what they actually wanted rather than what I thought they needed.
> 
> He ended up buying the Treo along with $100 in accessories, and sent his twin brother in the next day who pulled up in a new Jag (he was a dentist and the twin was an orthodontist). I still remember the Frost brothers.


:laugh: Funny 


mikey7182 said:


> This isn't 1998. The gear sold on the internet doesn't fall off the back of a truck. It's not "grey-market" anymore. The majority of gear sold by places like SonicElectronix and Onlinecarstereo is provided directly from the manufacturers, whether they want to admit it or not. It HAS to be, if for no other reason than the sheer volume of gear available and sold by these places. Manufacturers go where the money is, and they're not going to sacrifice the majority of their revenue stream to protect the evermore obsolete network of B&M dealers. It's not a coincidence that places like Ultimate Electronics and Circuit City have both gone out of business in the last 2 years. Online sales haven't just affected car audio.
> 
> I just bought a pair of Kenwood XR-4S refurbs for $360 shipped. They came with a 90 day warranty. In order to justify purchasing them at a B&M instead, they would BOTH have to go bad 3 times and I'd have to fund the replacements myself. B&M shops still have their place in the market, but with the internet knowledge base, the DIY crowd, and heavily discounted online sales, their customer base is growing smaller by the day.


And thats exactly true, most of the time when you buy from sonicelectronix.com and some other sites on the web, on top of the product being a good amount cheaper you get at least a 1 year warranty through them, spend $20 more and you get a 3 year warranty. As sad as it is to say most shops can't beat that.. I work at a local shop on weekends and a good amount of equipment comes in with customers purchased online and we still install it, based on the fact that we could not survive on just the sales of our product alone. If the cost is reasonably higher at a shop i will be glad to give them the money because i like them being around and having their knowledge to pick from, but a lot of times the cost cant even come close to internet sales.


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## W8 a minute (Aug 16, 2007)

You have to realize this isn't happening with car audio only. 

How much business has Summit taken away from local speed shops?
NOPI?
Jegs?
Rock Auto?
All of them are thriving online businesses. 

Heck, I can buy a 500hp crate engine online and shipped cheaper than the local engine rebuilder can do a simple rebuild on an engine.

Even the manufacturer's are closing the door on the brick and mortar businesses. All of my aftermarket Jeep parts I buy directly from the manufacturer. Why would I pay MSRP (or near) to a B&M when I can buy directly from the manufacturer? You can buy electronics directly from Harmon International on ebay. You can buy most electronics directly from the manufacurer if you want to.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

custom shops will always exist and folks that want to abuse them will as well. such is life


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## LGHT_ (Jan 12, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> Your argument here makes the assumption that the only people who purchase product on the internet as opposed to locally at a B&M are DIY'ers. Again, reference my Ultimate Electronics/Circuit City example. This isn't just about car audio; it's a shift in the general marketplace. Amazon.com saw a significant increase in market share on big screen TVs last year, while retailers like Best Buy lost ground. It doesn't mean they're hanging them in their house themselves, but they're getting the products at a substantial discount by purchasing online, saving sales tax, and paying someone locally to do the labor. The same holds true for many people purchasing car audio product that may not be from the DIY crowd. It doesn't take hours and hours to pick out a $150 headunit with USB. You do a few google searches, read a few reviews, then find the most reputable online source for the cheapest price shipped and you click "Buy." You make it sound like buying on the internet is some treacherous, laborious process.  Now since they'll have to pay someone to do the labor, B&M shops may continue to hang around in that respect, but listen to how many guys are losing local shops. Listen to how many major retailers are going out of business and being replaced by online vendors. How many new car audio B&Ms have opened up in your city in the last 5 years, and how many of them are still in business, let alone thriving? I'm not just making this **** up... it's easily observable.


Mikey is the man!! Dood you hit it right on the head, but keep in mind that "Angrywhopper" on the others only support the B&M model because they are a part of it and rely on it to buy their nice fancy cars by stealing from the consumers they are suppose to be supporting!!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

LGHT_ said:


> Mikey is the man!! Dood you hit it right on the head, but keep in mind that "Angrywhopper" on the others only support the B&M model because they are a part of it and rely on it to buy their nice fancy cars by stealing from the consumers they are suppose to be supporting!!


Well here's the deal- I'm all about people earning a living. And I don't think every B&M out there is dishonest and stealing from consumers, although I've definitely seen my fair share of those examples. It's actually what prompted my interest in DIY in the first place. But they have to earn a living just like everyone else. The issue is, they have rent to pay for, multiple employees to pay for, insurance to carry on the gear and the install bay, lights to keep on. In other words- tons of overhead. That's why MSRP is set up in the first place. There's always this idea defended by B&Ms that it's to "maintain the value of the product." That's ********. Overinflating the wholesale price of something by 100% doesn't build value; it covers overhead. And that's fine... no reason to lie about it. I don't value the $3200 in gear I just bought for $1800 any less just because I saved $1400. In fact, I value it more. I got more value for my dollar. It doesn't cheapen the equipment. But don't get your panties in a bunch when someone can sell the gear for much cheaper and still maintain profitability because they have a lower overhead. Figure out how to stay competitive, or go out of business. That's the nature of a free market economy. 

Like I said, I think B&Ms will stay in business to an extent, but a lot of them will go out of business because of the internet. It's a self-correcting market, just like everything else. No need for 100 B&Ms in a city whose customer base necessitates 8 stores.


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## flexdmc (Aug 14, 2009)

With the advent of the interweb thingy, why would anyone pay MSRP? Competition is healthy.


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## Resonant (Mar 20, 2011)

Usually buying used equipment can get me better gear than buying Ew anyways, but if I do buy new sometimes I'll pay MSRP to get it right away.


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## SoulFly (Mar 15, 2011)

got most of my stuff online for about half of retail, search with patience and often can be found lower. I got a brand new pre-enclosed ported JLA W6v2 for somewhere around $126 i think, i forget exactly but i think it was a fluke on their part. Love it though. 

One thing i don't like to do is build my own box. I'd rather pay more and i dont have built online cause i really don't want a 80lb box sitting at my doorstep and no one in my area actually does that sorta thing on any Professional level. So from now on i'm sticking with pre-enclosed, the boxes usually look nice, they match the sub...the end. Costs more but to some of us its worth it.

I do build my own computers though, save lots of money and its super easy. Thats another type of thing that most people would rather pay more for less at full retail price cause even online most Dell/HP computers arent much cheaper than local stores.


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## speakertime (Dec 6, 2010)

I've seen some of the "old school" threads and there are people paying over MSRP for the old stuff. It's all about supply and demand.


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## farfromovin (Mar 30, 2011)

When I started at age 16 (16 yrs ago), I learned everything I could from my local store and CA&E magazines. I used to hang out at the shop after school and on weekends just to discuss design and install techniques and theories with the salesman for hours on end. I learned everything there. I demo'd every product they had, and the salesman was happy to demo new stuff they just got in even though he knew I couldn't afford to buy anything. After a couple months I finally bought two RF Punch 12's and had them make a box. Then a few months later I bought a RF amp. So yeah, I might have spent about $1000 there but must have used up about 1000 hours of their time lol.

Fast forward to today- Go into a store to inquire about head units. I'm not even sure why I went into the store? Every question I asked couldn't be answered and I knew all the mis-information they were feeding me about different HU's. I have since decided on purchasing my own gear through grey market and or used avenues. Maybe I'm just a DIY'er at heart? I DO realize the value in true service though. When I bought my first new car, I paid $500 for the window tint in 2006 because the shop was truly professional and a step above all else. Now, If I had walked into a stereo store similar to this tint shop lately, maybe I would've just paid them to install a system? Hard to know...


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## Dremgragen (Jul 14, 2008)

GMB = grey market buyer

I have issues with other people being in/on/around my car without my direct supervision. I have 1 auto shop I take my car to for everything I won't do myself; no one else touches it. I should mention it isn't just because I love my cars, but I also drive one of a kind vehicles in a city of small population. If the kids that install my stuff know everything about my car and what I have in it (and probably my address in their computer), let me just say I would feel a lot less safe. 

I DIY audio because I don't trust people. I don't trust them to do it correctly and do it the way I'd want it (just so hard to force a mind-read these days).  I WISH I felt like I could trust local shops because I would LOVE to pay for an install and not have to do it myself. Those experienced and knowledgeable installers you guys talk about have moved on to different things or are now management and pay high school kids to do their work, here at least. I am dreading the install of everything into my new car. I am also a DIY/GMBer because all but 1 piece of my system cannot be purchased locally.

The 1 piece that could be bought locally, I did. I went in (they know I am a DIY/GMBer) and explained that I'd like to buy it from them authorized, but they would not be allowed to install it. They agreed, given the understanding they would only honor 1-year of warranty instead of 2. After we settled that score, they let me walk out with what I wanted at very reasonable price (about mid way between MSRP and lowest internet price at the time). I felt good about the purchase, knowing I could have saved a couple hundred had I bought online. 

I like the idea of buying locally, but it's not always what you hope for it to be. Today we have 2 shops. They both carry SPARSE inventory, and it's basically just entry level stuff with not much to audition and holes in their installation walls. One of them is an authorized Genesis dealer. When I was told this after inquiring about them online, I said to myself, "What? Really?" and went down to the shop. He didn't have a single piece of upper scale in stock. (And he doesn't tip his pizza delivery guy either - what kind of guy is that?) I understand times are tough and they're probably doing what they can, but a lot of people want to see/hear/touch what they are going to buy. That is supposed to be a perk of buying from your local dealer.

Lots of dealers frequenting in this thread. If anyone is an AVI dealer that will ship to internet customers, you should PM me. =)


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

GRIFTER9931 said:


> I can't remember the last time I paid mrsp for anything, and all my equipment is purchased from many authorized dealers.



Which illustrates the principle of establishing the value of building relationships with authorized, competent dealers quite nicely.



As with all things, the reality of what really goes on in a mobile electronics install bay has to be experienced firsthand in order to be appreciated in the proper context, but the basics of running a business must be satisfied in order to be successful regardless.

Sure, sometimes buying online makes sense if the products you require are not available locally or at a reasonable price, but do not expect manufacturer support from your local B&M if you bring it them to install, and expect to be charged for labor accordingly.

If you don't agree with that, or even see the logic in it, the DIY approach may be the best option for you. Time is money, and both are finite commodities. Choose wisely, or accept the consequences.


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## kattan_tha_man (Feb 2, 2021)

GRIFTER9931 said:


> I have read so many threads bashing a company for having an expensive product. Whether it be a Sub or an Amp or speaker etc...
> I can't remember the last time I paid mrsp for anything, and all my equipment is purchased from many authorized dealers.
> 
> Just look at all the threads that specifically targeted @ JL bashing for example. I don't get it, i know they (JL) have some of the more pricey gear on the market. It's up to the consumer to make an educated financial decision based on what he/she can afford, and really not be lazy and actually go out and do the research on the products for them selves.
> ...


Like you, I am always looking for a good deal. JL stuff is some seriously well made equipment and out of my price range.
I don't like the bashing and I know that every major part in my car was bought on some kind of sale.

Perfect example. Just bought a Rockville amp. 1500 RMS for $140, bought on sale. I know there has been a lot of rockville bashing lately. The amp may not last. The amp pushes some serious power and I know that my sub is dead for sure. Already saving up for new ones. 

In one day, I got a powerful amp and the opportunity to trade in my L7 12 for 2 15's- or 4 10's - or one beast 18.

In my opinion JL should be respected. If I had money I would have JL subs for sure. Expensive, but without a doubt you are getting some of the most advanced and well built audio equipment. They charge loads of money because it's worth it.

People bash Rockville because they try to produce good results on the cheap. They have miss badly on a few products, but redesigned them and tried again. When I listen to my sub and my eyeballs rattle and my vision goes blurry, I really don't care what brand my stuff is.

I wholehartedly agree with you and respect JL as well Rockville. JL is elite. Rockville is how i afford my passion, albeit at a risk.


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## blammo585 (Feb 1, 2020)

ChrisB said:


> One of my local shops is famous for charging ABOVE MSRP! In 2008 they wanted $1,500 UP FRONT for a JL Audio Stealthbox for my Mustang and MSRP was $1,050. I told them that Crutchfield had it for $950 shipped and the sales associate said "Well order it from Crutchfield then" and proceeded to whine and moan about how the internet was killing their business. I tried to explain to him that charging me $450 above MSRP was BS, and his excuse was "we don't make as high of a profit on special order items".
> 
> This past Saturday, I called one of the sister companies of that local shop and they wanted to charge me $60 for a  PAC SOEM-T. While it would have been nice to have one past weekend, I wasn't going to pay $60 for something with a MSRP of $29.95. When I asked the manager "Why so much" his reply was "That is what we are told to sell them for." Edit: I ordered one for $22 shipped!


I've never understood why places are content to let people go somewhere else to buy something cheaper rather than just putting their prices competitive in the first place. I've been in places and asked what the price of something is and it's way too high. They act like I don't know what the normal price is.


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

One decade later...


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