# which round 12" subwoofer hits as HARD as a 10" kicker solobaric sub ?



## mikemareen (Apr 20, 2006)

given that the 10" kicker solobaric has about the same cone area as a standard 12" round subwoofer, which 12" round subwoofer would hit as HARD as a 10" kicker solobaric ?

when I say HARD, I am talking HARD HITTING SOLOBARIC STYLE BASS !


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## septimus (Mar 8, 2006)

Any sub that has more displacement with enough power going to it.


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## NaamanF (Jan 18, 2006)

I would venture to guess any high excursion, high power sub.


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## Antnee77 (Aug 1, 2006)

May not exactly hit like the Kicker, but I guarantee it sounds better: 12w7


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## septimus (Mar 8, 2006)

12w7 will def hit harder than a kicker, just feed it plenty of power. (like 1 kwatt)

also mtx 9500


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## tard (Jul 13, 2006)

digital desings > mtx, jl, kicker.......

on paper and in theory don't always tell the whole story.


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## mongo22 (Aug 7, 2006)

Well i did a bit of investigating since this sounded like an interesting problem. I looked up the specs on three 12 inch subs that are high output and are regarded for thier sound quality. Heres what i found:


Kicker Solo-Baric S10L7 10-inch subwoofer
Xmax: .51 inch one-way linear
Effective Piston Area :100 sq. in (?)
Max power 600W RMS
Sealed box .75 cu/ft recommended

JL Audio 12W6v2 12-inch subwoofer
Xmax: .65 inch one way linear
Effective Piston Area :77.8 sq. in
Max power 750W RMS/optimum 400W RMS 
Sealed box 1.25 cu/ft recommended

JL Audio 12W7 12-inch subwoofer
Xmax: 1.15 inch one way linear
Effective Piston Area :84 sq. in
Max power 1500W RMS/optimum 750W RMS 
Sealed box 1.37 cu/ft recommended

Image Dynamics IDMAX12 12-inch subwoofer
Xmax: .96 inch one way linear
Effective Piston Area :78 sq. in
Max power 1000W RMS
Sealed box 1.20 cu/ft recommended

I couldnt find an exact number for the cone area of the Solo-Baric so im going to assume its roughly 10 inches square. Someone who actually owns one please measure it and let us know.

Looks like the JL 12W6v2 being slightly smaller in cone area but having a slight bit more excursion (xmax) then the Solo-Baric S10L7 might be a close match. Aprox same power handling as well. I dont know about sound quality for the Kicker but the 12W6v2 is awesome sounding so that may be the only difference between these two.

When we move up to the 12W7 things change. The 12W7 has a little more cone area then the 12W6v2 but the excursion goes up to MORE then double that of the Solo-Baric. That makes the 12W7's output at roughly DOUBLE that of the S10L7. Added to this you can give the 12W7 aprox twice the power and gain another 3db on top of that. More then twice the output and awesome sound quality makes the 12W7 hard to beat.

The Image Dynamics IDMAX12 falls somewhere inbetween the JL Audio subwoofers but closer to the 12W7. Again, excelent sound and great output.

Hope this helps.


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## w00tah (Feb 5, 2006)

tard said:


> *digital designs* > mtx, jl, kicker.......
> 
> on paper and in theory don't always tell the whole story.


fixed.


And, yes, DD > MTX, JL, Kicker, etc. But AudioQue is pretty much the same thing (same man owns both, DD is more dealer-oriented, AQ is factory direct) and are cheaper for 90-95% of the DD performance. I'm getting me an SD2 8" for either Christmas or my b-day, dunno when I want to drop the cash. Probably Christmas though....


Morgan


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## tard (Jul 13, 2006)

resonance inc. is family operated.

audioque isn't made like DD. but you're right that the perfmance is still great, quality is still top notch, and the price is less. it's economics. when you double the quality and performance, cost quadruples +/-.


mongo22- just cause a speaker "displaces" more air,... doesn't mean it's going to be louder. that's the kind of "on paper" salesman pitches companies like mtx want to trick you into believing.


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

The Sd of a solobaric 10 is only about 68 in^2 w/ someting like .5" excursion. Just about any decent 12" round sub will be able to displace more air per stroke., let alone high end models like W7 & IDMax.

As for "hard hitting solobaric-style bass" - whatever that is - that will depend on the enclosure design and power application.


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## septimus (Mar 8, 2006)

> just cause a speaker "displaces" more air,... doesn't mean it's going to be louder. that's the kind of "on paper" salesman pitches companies like mtx want to trick you into believing.


The more air a speaker displaces, the louder it will play provided you are talking about using a box thats been tuned properly, playing in the same area, with enough power to reach full excursion.

Its not a pitch, its physics.

Also, I'm sure http://www.soundsplinter.com/rls_series/rls12_inch_LMT_DIY_car_home_subwoofer_information.html
would crush the L7 as well.

All of these subs play much louder and move more air than necessary in a car. When I was working at tweeter, we had a kid put a JL1000.1 amp to a 12w7 in a JL box in the trunk of his '03 jetta. Testing it out was insane. His trunk was flexing like crazy, and the back windshield looked like it was about to pop out. Given one month of that thing, and i'm sure his car would literally have problems from the vibration.

I've never figured out what people are looking for when they take it this far.


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

^if you don't mind the box size, cost, or power requirements  

Everyone's on a good track. If you're looking for similar output capabilities, you're looking at shear output, cone area(Sd) and excursion(Xmax - linear output). This will translate to the capable, clean volume output a speaker can move. If you're worried about loudness(SPL) and low end capability(lower Hz needs more volume movement), these will be important. The route to get these will vary.

Consider other requirements and limitations. You have an amp already that is capable of outputing X amount of power at various ohm loads. If you don't plan on buying a new amp to match your new subs, this will be a design constraint. Your choice in a sub or subs(may consider a dual sub route too) will depend on power available and which subs can work well with that level of power.

Besides power, you have size. You either have a current box of a given size that you may reuse, or you are planning to build a new one. Whichever route, you are again constrained. If you have 3 ft^3 max to work with, you'll be looking for woofer options that can work within that limitation. This may mean you're looking for a single 12" or maybe even 15" sub that works well in a sealed 3 ft^3 box. You may want to go ported, so you're limitting yourself to subs that will work in a ported box of 3 ft^3 or less. If you consider a dual sub route, you'll cut that size in half for each. All these options are plenty doable, but each will have a different set of "appropriate" subwoofers.

After you get these constraints nailed down, you start looking at sub specs. You may have 5 good candidates to work with for a particular design route. You start looking at specs and understand how each will vary from one another. There was a relatively recent thread discussiong Theil/Small perameters and what they mean. Understanding these specs can give you an idea of how these various speakers are geared. The T/S specs will tell you things like moving mass, efficiency, suspension stiffness, etc. and give you ideas about how low or high a particular sub may play as well as if it's geared for a relatively small or large box or even if it's primarily designed to run in a sealed or ported box. Then programs like WinISD or BassBox can model up the frequency response of any particular sub and show you how one sub varies from another for any particular box size or configuration. These programs just model estimated curves(of various accuracies) off the T/S specs. They aren't end-all results as your car also introduces cabin gain that can greatly modify the end result.

Anyways, have fun. There are a ton of good choices out there. I can't really suggest anything as you have stated zero constraints, so as far as I'm concerned, almost anything and everything out there is still an option for you.

Pick some limitations:
-max power available and in what ohm loads
-max box size you're willing to stuff in your car
-cost limitations for this project
-any size constraints that would limit woofer size or woofer depth
-desired playable frequency range(how low/high would you like it to play)
-minimum desired loudness(I'd assume the capable output of your Solobaric as the minimum)


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

tard said:


> mongo22- just cause a speaker "displaces" more air,... doesn't mean it's going to be louder. that's the kind of "on paper" salesman pitches companies like mtx want to trick you into believing.


I guess when it comes to SPL, there's no physics involved?

Your typical spl subs might peak at higher note, which makes it sounds louder, will NOT outdisplaces a larger woofer with more displacement at lower frequencies. 

Do a bit of reading on the Fletcher-Munson curve about your ears vs. spl

*edit*
didn't see the 2 replies above when i posted this


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## rbenz27 (Mar 9, 2006)

In case it hasn't been mentioned, an Image Dynamics IDMAX would definitely hit hard.


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## IceWaLL (May 30, 2005)

just thought id add as an owner of both dd and audioque subs they are one and the same when it comes to motors and baskets/ soft parts as well.

the difference is in machining and tooling which costs a LOT.

I have experience in the dd9515d and e series and the audioque hd3 12" and all are VERY similar. (of course the d is different but it was just one of the ones ive owned)


and audioque is not owned by the same person that owns DD. its (jassa's) his father that owns it (DJ i believe).


listen to mvw2... he obviously knows his stuff and im not going to repeat what was already said.

just make sure you look at build quality first as thats the most important thing... unless you like subs that break!!!


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## tard (Jul 13, 2006)

septimus-

so because i have a 2L and someone else has a 350ci, they automaticly have more power because they displace more ci?

doesn't work that way with engines and it doesn't work that way with speakers.

vol displacement is only one factor. you need to look at the big picture and not just one piece in the puzzle.

put 500w to your sub @ 50hz and then @ 20hz. sure does move a lot more air @ 20hz, but it isn't louder now is it.

i suggest you go buy a DD and then run it against a comparable sub with more throw. same box, same enviro, up to each of their potential. then explain why the DD is just as loud with only moving 1/2 as much. and the answer isn't an optical illusion of different excursion. do you think that energy/time also needs to be considered in for the loudness calculation?

try it, really. i think you will re-evaluate your stand point on vol displacement. 15 years ago i was on the same thought pattern. ran on a few physics and engineering thought processes. until someone showed me the light.





so if AQ and DD uses all the same parts.... why would they tell me different?


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

^true. But, this would also mean that one or both of the subs may not be reproducing the sound accurately and the cone is moving improperly to the wave pattern. On one end, you may have something that sounds very vague and sloppy with no real definition or impact, and on the other end you could have something very detailed and crisp that comes off as tight and hard hitting. The sloppy one may have a tone of cone movement, but since there's no real definition or force to the output, bass seems weak. The very tight sub provides strong, sharp hits that are much more noticable. It can sound loud without as much movement.

I don't pretend ot know everything. I've been around car audio for over 10 years in one way or another and have really dug into the hobby over the last few years. I'll be the first to tell you I still feel like I know squat. I have very little first-hand experience with subs and amps. I know the concepts behind them and fully understand what I'm doing with them be it subwoofer choice, box design, or any other apect. Bassfreak over on CAF even has helped me quite a bit understanding T/S parameters and how they influence the sound behavior of speakers. He loves DD and Audioque and I'm sure for good reason.

I look at car audio as a whole system. I like to take a top down approach and working from an overall "this is what I want" down to the details based off any goals, constraints, and limitations. There's no "best" out there, not for HUs, amps, speakers, or subs. It's all "best fit" or what works best in this particular application. I think most people completely overlook that aspect. They pick brand X, model Z because everyone else loves it. Well, it may suck for his application. He may have half the box volume available that is needed and a third of the power needed. Then what? Maybe he picked a sub that won't play low enough for his liking(for his box size/configuration)? Maybe it doesn't even sound right. You have to pick appropriately for your design constraints. Figure out your goals, define any limitations, and pick whatever fits best.

It does still come down to basic physics. You need volume movement to create loudness. But, yes, you also need the proper cone movement to even create an impact. It's the idea of impulses in physics, force over a given time. Two subs may provide the same amount of volume movement, but if one can move that volume faster over a shorter period of time, the impulse is stronger. It's like the difference between someone shoving you and someone punching you. In the end, both methods may provide the same amount of overall work done on you, but the punch due to its higher speed(shorter duration, higher force) will feel much stronger than just a slow shove. In this reguard, you can get away with less overall work and still have it "feel" equal or greater. 

However, at some point you have to start wondering about accuracy. Can it be too fast? How fast is too fast? Waves aren't square. It's not just on and off.

As well, with this idea of two subs pitted against each other. Wouldn't one have to consider if the box was built appropriately for the sub? If one sub is moving sloppily, maybe the box is too large. Woudn't the sub tighten up and offer more impact if put in a smaller box? What if the DD sub was put in a larger box? Wouldn't it eventually become sloppy and vague? The box does play an important role in the end sound. Of course, it's not an end-all. Some subs are simply built better or at least built to suit a wider range of uses more easily. You might be able to throw the DD you suggested into a 1 ft^3 box or simply IB and it may work decently well either way. The only long throw sub may requre a more specific design to work well.

There's just too many factors to simply say sub A sucks and sub B rocks. Build quality and a good design approach will determine which subs can generally fair better, yet it's all still "best fit."


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## tard (Jul 13, 2006)

well said.

but no, the test i've done the box is acceptabel on paper and real world to both subs. like you mention, some subs like a narrow box range and can perform terribly. even though the Q alignment from their T/S para's indicate the box is acceptable. but that's just another example where theory doesn't always meet real world performance.

there is also spl sensor to judge output aside from my ears. yes, the DD's kick like a mule. very strong transience to them. where as some other subs are "smoother" on the bass response.

it is like you described above. push and punch. same end energy, different time and stroke to get there. so maybe some can understand the concept with your analogy as to why vol displacement is not the only factor to govern if sub A is louder than sub B.


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## icemancm (Aug 9, 2006)

DD1012 in a slot port enclosure. DD's can kick it hard maybe even harder than the solo... just my two cents.


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## mikemareen (Apr 20, 2006)

tard said:


> well said.
> 
> but no, the test i've done the box is acceptabel on paper and real world to both subs. like you mention, some subs like a narrow box range and can perform terribly. even though the Q alignment from their T/S para's indicate the box is acceptable. but that's just another example where theory doesn't always meet real world performance.
> 
> ...


wow's so the DD's are more of a "punch" sub rather than a smothering "push" sub ?

any other subs that you guys would consider more of a "PUNCH" sub ?


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## septimus (Mar 8, 2006)

tard, lemme know when you come out with some crazy 1" woofers that don't move any air, but hit louder than a w7.


I think you feel this way because of your experience with "real world" performances. Like you hear one sub, in one box, in one car, with one amp with one eq setting, then you hear another sub that moves a little less air, in a different box, in a different car, with a different amp with a different eq. Those aren't side by side comparisons, they are completely different and irrelevant.

same thing with engines, a high strung 2L with a turbo on it and a state of the art computer controlled injection, ignition, and turbo system may have more power than joe blows 350 chevy with a carb. but they are set up all different. the fact remains that a certain amount of gas, with a certain amount of air has a certain potential energy to burn, and the more of it you're engine can burn in a given period of time, the more it is possible to make.


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

Tard,
It's as simple as this.

Sub with high thermal handling, good-decent throw in a box designed to maximize SPL to a certain peak in the car will "sound" loud.

There's no magic to it. The transfer function of the car dictates to where the car peaks. SPL guys know this and tune their boxes to that certain peak. Thus, high SPL within that very region.

Another thing about sound is that a 20hz note just doesn't "sound" as loud as a 60hz midbass note given both are at the same spl. A good mic will measure sound accurately. But, your ears hear the sound all very differently. 
Check out this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour


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## tard (Jul 13, 2006)

and you guys don't think i have a TL or a full spectrum mic? you don't think i've done spl? you don't think i've done fair A vs B with all apples equal?

i don't just make this stuff up from a bias standpoint, partial tests, etc.. you can't only look at one idea and use it as the only governing factor. that is what i'm saying here.

and exactly about the 2L and 350. there's more factors to equate in output than just bore x stroke!!!

tell me you also know more about spl, etc than these guys....
(type this whole address in, it won't link)
http://www.team-gh.de/blows_windshield[1].mpa

i must not know who any of them are, don't have phone #'s, don't live a few hours from one of them, never talk with them to learn their knowlendge and experience to add with mine either.

don't waste your time argueing with a numbskull like me. run the tests and then evaluate the results yourself.


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

Provided there is sufficient BL for a given speaker, there are only TWO things that determine a speakers output capabilities (looking only at the speaker). EXCURSION AND CONE AREA. Thats it. End of story!

Since this is more of an SQ oriented board, we tend to look for X-MAX to determine excursion.

If looking for an SPL fart cannon, look for a speaker with considerably more X-SUS/X-MECH than X-MAX (such as some DD subs).

The rest, as everyone has stated, is install/box/car related.

Thanks for playing.


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## tard (Jul 13, 2006)

i'll try and put all this in a different perspective.

septimus- your example of a W7 and a 1" woofer doesn't float.

you cannot only look at 1 spec on paper and base your 2 cents of predicted output from that. that's what audio shop salesman do. you go in one shop and they'll tell you this brand woofer is the best because it has this spec. and this spec is more than all the others. you go in the next shop and a different sub is the best because it has this different, therefore it's the best. it's all a bunch of crap.

this whole conversation is about people being tunnel visioned on only 1 factor out of the many. you have to consider all the factors and not just 1. never did i say bore x stroke had no bearing in the out come. i am saying it is not the only factor as some of you only want to use only it in your evaluations. you are the ones doing partial reviews, not me.

here's an analogy. matt hughes running around saying he's champion is only talk. just like looking at specs on paper is only talk. talk is useless. matt hughes going into the ring and kicking butt earning his champion belt is what matters. just like how a speaker performs is what matters. so don't argue about useless talk and you can't dispute someone's walk because someone else is the best talker. that is why i hold more regard to what a sub does rather than what the specs say.

now, i used those guys (old team "toys with noise") as an example. because just a couple weeks ago i was talking with one and we were comparing results and charictaristics of different speakers. in some of both of our real world findings, the issue of some speakers being just as loud with 1/2 the throw came up. and he had the same thing to say as i did with some of the brands being compared.


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

From a measured SPL standpoint, the specs I listed are perfectly adequate for predicting output (again, ONLY looking at the speaker).

For subjective SPL, thats a ****load of variables.


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

tard said:


> the issue of some speakers being just as loud with 1/2 the throw came up. and he had the same thing to say as i did with some of the brands being compared.


Again, a speaker can have considerably more X-SUS/X-MECH than X-MAX, and therefore sound and measure greatly louder than its X-MAX suggests.

A speaker driven well past X-MAX will likely produce significant 2nd and 3rd order distortions, which "could" cause the speaker to sound "louder" because of the distortion being further up the audible spectrum. See Fletcher/Munson curve.


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## tard (Jul 13, 2006)

PlanetGranite said:


> ........ and therefore sound and measure greatly louder than its X-MAX suggests.


haven't i been pretty much saying that? and that being my whole point. 

you need not post the physics for me. i'd be glad to learn any new info you have to present. but as far as all the common knowledge ideas, been there. along with all the different arguements presented by various engineers why their speakers will be louder.


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

Its still a matter of cone area and displacement is it not? I never said anything about only looking at X-MAX.

Sooooo ...... if two speakers have more than adequate BL, and each have exactly the same X-SUS/X-MECH, are you trying to say that one could still somehow be measurably louder (looking only at the speaker)?????

Oh yeah - equal cone area also.

P.S. - Sorry to jack your thread mikemareen. My bad. :blush:


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## tard (Jul 13, 2006)

yes, not meaning to jack your thread. but at least trying to provide some ideas what to look for and not be decieved by.

here's what i argue against.....

the misconception that bore x stroke vol displacement is going to equal louder.

i say, vol disp is only ONE factor involved and not the only one to consider. and i provided some crude examples.

bringing in BL, and other paramaters...... is just proof that there is more to capability of loudness than just volume displacement.

i have to assume that you are side tracked in what i have said from the beginning.

only respond to what is posed in this question. don't bring in any other factors.

is on paper vol displacement the ONLY factor to evaluate if one speaker is going to be louder than another (looking at speaker only)?


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## mikemareen (Apr 20, 2006)

imo I really don't like long xmax subs. I'd rather have a strong, powerful motor with nice cone area and short xmax.

I tried a boston 10" G5, a very long xmax woofer and very loud but there were some bass notes that shouldn't be there.

I was like "hmm, where did that come from" ?. 

I guess that would be the cerwin vega stroker and kicker solo's.

HIT HARD AND FAST. that's the way subs should sound.


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## SteveLPfreak (Sep 26, 2005)

Check out the old school JBL GTi series for great SQ subs with small Xmax.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I tend to agree EXEPT I don't seem to have that problem with the Daytron Reference sub, maybe the shorting rings help?

Before that I had old-skool JBL 1500GTi's those were quick! They were modeled after the JBL2226 G/H pro drivers, using the same frame, and motor. Wish they still had recone kits available, some recone place SOMEWHERE has to have one laying around. I have a dead one and would love to see someone here give it a great home. It's a wonderful sub, It was a CA&E test unit. Te pair was split up and it's brother is still going strong! I got the sick one back.
Chad


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## mikemareen (Apr 20, 2006)

SteveLPfreak said:


> Check out the old school JBL GTi series for great SQ subs with small Xmax.



u talkin bout this ?


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## badlieu (Jul 13, 2005)

mikemareen said:


> u talkin bout this ?


I don't think so - probably refering to the paper cone with folder surround.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

mikemareen said:


> imo I really don't like long xmax subs. I'd rather have a strong, powerful motor with nice cone area and short xmax.
> 
> I tried a boston 10" G5, a very long xmax woofer and very loud but there were some bass notes that shouldn't be there.
> 
> ...


 There's not enough information there to conclude that because this driver had a long xmax that it would be sloppy. Quite the opposite in fact, that all things being equal a longer excursion driver will have less distortion... and less "bass that shouldn't be there".


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## SteveLPfreak (Sep 26, 2005)

badlieu got it. Not the newer ones (which I heard are very nice) but the older models Chad mentioned that are based on the pro units. Require a big box but had great sensitivity and power handling. Last forever. Still got (3) 1500GTis.

Here's a 18" on eBay now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-18-sub-woof...oryZ3275QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

PlanetGranite said:


> Its still a matter of cone area and displacement is it not? I never said anything about only looking at X-MAX.
> 
> Sooooo ...... if two speakers have more than adequate BL, and each have exactly the same X-SUS/X-MECH, are you trying to say that one could still somehow be measurably louder (looking only at the speaker)?????
> 
> ...


 Sensitivity, powerhandling, and assists... room and or box/pr. etc. not to mention frequency. A 100hz tone is considerably louder than a 20hz tone. There are alot of factors at play in determining subjective loudness.

Perhaps not a fair comparison, but even small horn loaded bullet tweeters can reach painfully loud levels with the smallest excursion. 

You'll also find some drivers whose sensitivity and thermal powerhandling is so relatively poor, that despite their large excursion capabilities they cannot achieve a subjective louder sound.


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## PlanetGranite (Apr 12, 2005)

npdang said:


> Sensitivity, powerhandling, and assists... room and or box/pr. etc. not to mention frequency. A 100hz tone is considerably louder than a 20hz tone. There are alot of factors at play in determining subjective loudness.
> 
> Perhaps not a fair comparison, but even small horn loaded bullet tweeters can reach painfully loud levels with the smallest excursion.
> 
> You'll also find some drivers whose sensitivity and thermal powerhandling is so relatively poor, that despite their large excursion capabilities they cannot achieve a subjective louder sound.


Totally agree. I was looking purely at objective/measured SPL - and only at the speaker itself (not external influences) - all with the addendum that there is sufficient BL in said hypothetical speaker.


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