# ZAPCO Z Series Amplifiers



## Izay123

I first heard about the new Z series from a local shop that does high-end car audio: I was on the hunt for some new high-end amps that had the massive power I needed, the sound signature I wanted, respectable build quality, and a price that wasn't completely out-of-this-world.

Enter:ZAPCO Z series amps.

Model: Z150.6
Channels: 6
Power Ratings:

150 watts x 6 @ 4 ohms
225 watts x 6 @ 2 ohms
450 watts x 3 @ 4 ohms

I ordered my new ZAPCO amps from Kramer's in Oregon (Great dealer BTW--very knowledgeable & upstanding. PM me if you want their contact info). I received 2 150.6 amps (more to follow) in October. I took off the bottom cover and marveled at the size and number of output devices surrounding the board clipped to the heatsink. The amplifier is deceptively heavy: the heatsink must be close to 3/4 " thick on each side. 

I noticed right away that the ZAPCO doesn't have active cooling. Most class AB amps with this level of output use fans to move air through the heatsink to prevent overheating. ZAPCO doesn't. I have mixed feelings on this: I like that the engineers didn't expect fans to be needed, but I am somewhat concerned about longterm, high-output use in a hot trunk during the summer. Can they just come up with an optional DIY Watercooled heatsink kit? 

Zapco has one extrusion profile for all their new Z-series amps and it's also used for a couple of ZX amps. The extrusion is just cut to different lengths prior to anodizing. This makes system design/install more straightforward. I only wish they had a more powerful sub amp in that extrusion (but that's another subject).


After I finished inspecting the board, the dual massive hand-wound power supplies, and the bank of capacitors, I put the cover back on and looked at the outside: DEAD SEXXXY!!! 

The top of the amp is a dark grey anodized aluminum look with raised ZAPCO logo in the center. The RCAs and adjustments are on one end while the Power and speaker connections are on the other. The power connectors feature large terminals: 1/0 gauge power and ground; 8 gauge speaker outs. The best part? ALL wire connections/adjustments on the amplifier can be made with a standard phillips & flathead screwdriver. Even the smaller connections (REM wire) are widened out to allow standard size screwdrivers--no more hunting around for the allen wrench or mini driver!!!

The amp sat in my living room for a couple weeks--so I could enjoy looking at it everyday and showing it to curious friends--before I installed it into my trunk.

The install was a breeze! & when I climbed into the driver's seat to give a listen.....



BAM!!! It only took 30 seconds for me to be happy with my purchase. This was an instant, plug-and-play difference. This was amazing.

Before installing the ZAPCO amp, I had been using 3 Boston GT2300's. I could envision the SQ qualities that were deficient from the Bostons before I installed the ZAPCOs. When I did the swap, the ZAPCOs covered all the deficiencies that the Boston had and more. I had all internal amp processing bypassed on all amps--full range so no crossovers/bass boost would alter my impressions.

I had exceptional clarity & detail I hadn't yet heard in this set-up. I am really impressed with the tonal quality of this amp. It displays a timbre that is very addictive & warm while still being detailed on the top end. I have been a longtime oldschool PPI fan, and I've had good success achieving the sound I wanted with the old PPI amps. They have a warmer tone than many other amps--& MUCH warmer than most class D full range amps.

This ZAPCO sounds like a blast from the past. THIS IS WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR. If you're looking for an amp that has exceptional sound quality and you can make it fit, you MUST demo the ZAPCO Z-series. If you believe all amps sound the same, go look somewhere else--buy a pyle or rockwood etc. But if you care about the nuances of how your music sounds, you NEED to demo this amp.

Oh and before I forget--This amp has MAJOR BALLZ!!! It has the power to GET DOWN when needed--it never sounds strained or out of juice, even during intense passages.


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## highspeed

Thanks for the review! Would love to see some pix of your install. How hot do the amps get under normal conditions?


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## Izay123

highspeed said:


> Thanks for the review! Would love to see some pix of your install. How hot do the amps get under normal conditions?


I'll get some pics up a little later next week once I get them on my computer...

I felt them a couple times and they never were hot to the touch. I'll have to jam on them soon for an hour or so then feel them. I'll post the results of that.

I am mostly interested in watercooling because I'll soon have 4-5 Amps stacked vertically with little space inbetween and very little airspace in the trunk--not because I think it'd be necessary in a normal install.


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## darrenforeal

Good review. And I can't say enough good things about the Zseries. I have 4 150.2s running my front stage in my BMW and I am also using 4 150.2s and a 2KD in my truck install I am building. Love these amps. GREAT GREAT SQ and powwwweeerrful.

Will make a more detailed review soon with pics. awesome amps


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## aj1735

I will have to agree with the previous posts. I have a z150.4 for my midrange and tweets and a zx200.4 for my mids and subs. It will put out over 1000 watts bridged at 2 ohms. Supposed to be easily able to handle it. I have just ran the zx200.4 just at 4 ohms so far for a couple of JL 8W3V3'S until I get my box made for my focal 27kx. I don't have it all done yet but it sounds great in my 2 way now with my alpine spx17pros so far. I can't wait to get it all done. I just wish that they were a little bit smaller in size. 

My only other suggestion would be to make a more standard size for them. I know some have more internals that others but I would guess it would be a cleaner install for some people. I was reading on their site some of the specs of the different models, and everyone is a different length. Just might make cosmetics a little harder in the install. Like the slash series, the 300/2, 300/4 and 500/1 were the same size and so were the 450/4 and 1000/1. Just made things more uniform. Not bad that my only suggestion is a cosmetic thing. Great amps and great customer service.


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## Richv72

SO did you take some pictures of the guts when you had the cover off?


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## lucky

I love Zapco amps, my old ref350 is still going strong. Sadly, its just too much trouble to stealth mount wakeboard size amps.


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## Coppertone

Great to hear some solid reviews on these amps. I'm running tow amps now and have always wanted to go back to one in my Subaru. My current amps are Mosconi AS100.4 & Mosconi Zero3. I had told myself not to swap this out as it gave me all that I wanted and more. But this Zapco has me really wanting to go down to one amp.


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## Izay123

Richv72 said:


> SO did you take some pictures of the guts when you had the cover off?


Yes I have a gut pic--looks pretty sweet. Will post it soon


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## rgiorgio

I also have the the 150.6. What an amp and so versatile. Love it. I used to 4 of the old Competition amps and thought they were the holy grail, these are better for less money.

Sizing is difficult. Need another one, 2 channel, wont fit


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## Coppertone

Sent you a pm.


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## aj1735

rgiorgio said:


> I also have the the 150.6. What an amp and so versatile. Love it. I used to 4 of the old Competition amps and thought they were the holy grail, these are better for less money.
> 
> Sizing is difficult. Need another one, 2 channel, wont fit


I thought about the 150.6 but I just went with the 150.4 and the zx200.4. That gave me all 8 channels that I need plus plenty for my subs. I just wish they were a little smaller. Oh well, can't have everything.


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## Izay123

Coppertone said:


> Sent you a pm.


Pm replied to


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## Golden Ear

There are no prices on the 150.6 & 150.4 on the website. I'm planning on getting one or the other depending on if I go 3-way or 2-way active. How much are they?


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## rgiorgio

Your looking at about $1100 for the 150.6


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## Golden Ear

Wow! How about the 150.4?


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## BigRed

I have 4 150x2 and a 6.5k for subs. loving em


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## Izay123

Izay123 said:


> Yes I have a gut pic--looks pretty sweet. Will post it soon


Here it is!!!


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## Golden Ear

Very nice!


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## Izay123

BigRed said:


> I have 4 150x2 and a 6.5k for subs. loving em


The 6.5k is running your dual w15gti's in the series tuned bandpass enclosure correct?

Would you mind posting your thoughts on the performance of the 6.5k imparticular? I'm hoping to get more reviews on the thread, including the subwoofer amps of the z/zx series. It'd be great To hear your opinion on it because of your extensive knowledge & experience.


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## subwoofery

Izay123 said:


> Here it is!!!


Need much bigger pics... Can't see the brand on anything  

Kelvin


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## rgiorgio

At Golden Ear, that's not alot for what your are getting. When i purchased mine, i thought it would be more. You are getting a Zapco 4 channel amp and a 2 channel amp in one. 2 amps of that quality and output will cost you more.


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## Golden Ear

I meant "wow, that's a good price"  I have a 25 year old Zapco z220 that still sounds amazing and I think they were in the $500 range back then! Those amps made me a Zapco fan but for some dumb reason I have bought other amps that haven't impressed me like those z220s. My next purchase will definitely be Zapco, tho. An installer I met told me that Zapco amps are now made in china, any truth to that? I was born about 30 mins from Zapco hq so I hope it ain't true


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## rgiorgio

I read somewhere on here that they are made outside of the country now. It wasnt China, i forget where. Wherever they are made, they are still just as good and now an even better value. I am very happy with my 150.6. Cant wait to here my new Rainbow 3 way hooked up to it next week.


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## BigRed

Golden Ear said:


> I meant "wow, that's a good price"  I have a 25 year old Zapco z220 that still sounds amazing and I think they were in the $500 range back then! Those amps made me a Zapco fan but for some dumb reason I have bought other amps that haven't impressed me like those z220s. My next purchase will definitely be Zapco, tho. An installer I met told me that Zapco amps are now made in china, any truth to that? I was born about 30 mins from Zapco hq so I hope it ain't true


Korea


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## BigRed

Izay123 said:


> The 6.5k is running your dual w15gti's in the series tuned bandpass enclosure correct?
> 
> Would you mind posting your thoughts on the performance of the 6.5k imparticular? I'm hoping to get more reviews on the thread, including the subwoofer amps of the z/zx series. It'd be great To hear your opinion on it because of your extensive knowledge & experience.



very powerful and clean in output. I have the gain way down. its got plenty left in the tank


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## Golden Ear

So they are being made "Oppa Gangnam style"?


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## vivmike

I purchased a Z 150.4 today. Got a pretty good deal.


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## RandyJ75

vivmike said:


> I purchased a Z 150.4 today. Got a pretty good deal.


I just bought one of these as well. I also have 2 of the Z150.2's that I will be using in my build. 

Glad to hear so many people like them.

Can't wait to get them installed.

Randy


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## aj1735

I just bought a second z150.4 for my next build. I am already using a z150.4 and zx200.4 in my truck and think I'm going to go the same route again. I was thinking about going with c2k but I really like my z's. Good luck with yours.


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## vivmike

RandyJ75 said:


> I just bought one of these as well. I also have 2 of the Z150.2's that I will be using in my build.
> 
> Glad to hear so many people like them.
> 
> Can't wait to get them installed.
> 
> Randy


Let me know what u think once installed? Mine still hasn't arrived.


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## vivmike

aj1735 said:


> I just bought a second z150.4 for my next build. I am already using a z150.4 and zx200.4 in my truck and think I'm going to go the same route again. I was thinking about going with c2k but I really like my z's. Good luck with yours.



What type of results can i expect....upgrading from a Hifonics Zues 600/4? Lol.


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## aj1735

vivmike said:


> What type of results can i expect....upgrading from a Hifonics Zues 600/4? Lol.


I don't know much about the Zeus but I do know that the zapco z150.4 is a very powerful clean amp and really like the way it sounds. I changed to it from a JL 450/4 and noticed the music just start to come alive with the zapco. I was really happy with the upgrade. I am just waiting on installing my second one into my second system. I still sometime want to try the C2k amps but that's going to be a while yet. Have you tried yours out yet compared to the old one?


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## Richv72

aj1735 said:


> I don't know much about the Zeus but I do know that the zapco z150.4 is a very powerful clean amp and really like the way it sounds. I changed to it from a JL 450/4 and noticed the music just start to come alive with the zapco. I was really happy with the upgrade. I am just waiting on installing my second one into my second system. I still sometime want to try the C2k amps but that's going to be a while yet. Have you tried yours out yet compared to the old one?


So you are saying you could hear the difference between the zapco and the jl audio amp?.


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## vivmike

aj1735 said:


> I don't know much about the Zeus but I do know that the zapco z150.4 is a very powerful clean amp and really like the way it sounds. I changed to it from a JL 450/4 and noticed the music just start to come alive with the zapco. I was really happy with the upgrade. I am just waiting on installing my second one into my second system. I still sometime want to try the C2k amps but that's going to be a while yet. Have you tried yours out yet compared to the old one?


Not yet. I'm waiting for the local dealer to recieve it from Zapco. Which RCA cables do you suggest?


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## aj1735

Richv72 said:


> So you are saying you could hear the difference between the zapco and the jl audio amp?.


Yes, I could tell a difference. I think that it became more detailed, richer and more dynamic. I don't know how much is the more power but I think that it sounds a lot better. It did jump up from 75x2 in the jl 450/4 to 150x2 in the zapco z150.4, the other channel is the same at 150x2 also. Now I also have 200x2 on the mid bass from the zx200.4. 

I'm just using 4 nice sets of ixos rcas and they work great and I have no noise whatsoever.


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## TrickyRicky

Izay123 said:


> Here it is!!!


Higher resolution pics please. Looks like those "critical mass" amplifiers that are cookie cutters. 

I wonder what outputs they use??? TIP35/36?


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## Golden Ear

TrickyRicky said:


> Looks like those "critical mass" amplifiers that are cookie cutters.


Oh no, say it ain't so!


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## TrickyRicky

Sorry but by the looks of it, there's a highly probability that the same Korean factory that makes those amps for everyone else (massive, critical mass, and a bunch of others discussed in other threads....LOOK UNDER CRITICAL MASS RIP OFF".

You guys do know that Zapco was sold from the last American owner to a company at a disclosed amount of money two years ago right? Now their milking Zapco for every last penny they can get....


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## Golden Ear

Kinda makes me glad I went with the jl hd600/4.


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## vivmike

Isn't JL made in China and Korea as well?


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## TrickyRicky

Am pretty sure majority of the boards are manufacture in other countries. You first need to know how an amplifier is made/manufacture in order to understand that an all American amplifier is pretty much out of the question.


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## Golden Ear

vivmike said:


> Isn't JL made in China and Korea as well?


Could be. But I don't think you'll find the same amp with a different name for 1/2 the price.


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## vivmike

True.


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## vivmike

Holy **** the Zapco Z sounds clean!


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## Richv72

While I love the old zapco, the new zapco scares me a little. Ive seen a few new ones for sale and have decided to wait. They just look like every other korean amp out there now. When I look at the new zapco amps the first thing that comes to mind is cheap looking. The case and terminals look cheap. I dont trust zapco as a company anymore. Zapco used to be a cutting edge company whos products were on a whole nother level from the rest, now they seem average.


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## TrickyRicky

Richv72 said:


> While I love the old zapco, the new zapco scares me a little. Ive seen a few new ones for sale and have decided to wait. They just look like every other korean amp out there now. When I look at the new zapco amps the first thing that comes to mind is cheap looking. The case and terminals look cheap. I dont trust zapco as a company anymore.


Heck you should know...didn't you buy that critical mass amp on-sale and turned out to be just like every other Korean amp (same board, same lay out, same design...one or two different components..lol).


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## Richv72

TrickyRicky said:


> Heck you should know...didn't you buy that critical mass amp on-sale and turned out to be just like every other Korean amp (same board, same lay out, same design...one or two different components..lol).


Yeah and I learned my lesson.


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## Golden Ear

Man, I'm bummed to hear that about Zapco. I hope they don't fall all the way down like Pyle and some of the others that used to make good stuff and now make flea market junk.


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## TrickyRicky

New owners....new business ideas.


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## highspeed

I respectfully disagree with the critics on this thread. The Z amps look fantastic in person. Very classy and they feel solid, very well built. Performance is top shelf, they can compete in every category for best sound, only personal taste will dictate weather you prefer a Zapco over another brand.
Made in Korea? What's wrong with that? You all have great products built in Asia. Design is key. I don't care where it's made as long as they keep performing how they are now. The Zapco Z amps I installed months ago are now the crown jewel in the best system I've ever had. I would recommend them to anyone looking for the best.


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## TrickyRicky

I apologize but I did say "looks like" never said "IT IS". I don't have one and haven't seen one in person so in reality my opinion means *NOTHING*.



TrickyRicky said:


> Higher resolution pics please.* Looks like *those "critical mass" amplifiers that are cookie cutters.


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## vivmike

This Zapco Z 150.4 looks and performs great. My installer had a huge smile on his face.


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## weshole

I replaced a Reference 1100.1 and 1000.4 with a Z2KD and Z400.2 and have to say these perform even better than the Reference amps. I have nothing but good to say about these amps in *every* way.


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## Treesive

I bought a z150.4 & 2kd not to long ago. Haven't finished the amp rack for the 2kd but have been using the 150.4 for a month or so and it had been as advertised. Very clean and powerful and I have no problem with the cosmetics. They look good but yes I would say they have that common Korean styled look.


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## weshole

I know that the Z2KD and the IA20.1 look identical (in layout and Korean made) and I know many people love their 20.1's. 
On a further note, the 400.2 has balls and gives my front stage all it can handle and doing so without any sonic impurity.


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## RandyJ75

Well, It seems that the people who are using these amps love them.

I am going to use them in my build.

Thanks for every ones input.

Randy


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## Richv72

You cant go wrong with zapco randy, they still are one of the best amps out there. Korean or not they are still good quality.


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## goodguyocom

just bought 2 z150.2 hope it don't dissappoint me


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## DJ Welfare

To those who own this amp, what are the dimensions? I see a different size on the specs on different sidees and has me confused. Thanks in advance


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## weshole

The Zapco site has them listed accurately


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## DJ Welfare

Thanks I was double checking but knew zapco's site had to be correct. All I know trying to fit 18.75" under my seat is gonna be a challenge.


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## Doc69

Ok so Im new here but had a question...I just bought the Zapco 150.6 but have not installed it yet. So the question I have is Channels 1-4 has a selector switch of LP/HP/FULL on the crossover but Channel 5-6 only have LP and FULL. So what I'm wanting to do is run a set of 2-way components on channels 1 and 2. A set of 3-way components on channels 3 and 4. And finally a set of co-axial speakers in the rear door with channels 5 and 6. So what I'm wanting to know is where do I set the channels 1 thru 4 and then 5 thru 6 to accomplish this set up? I will be running a seperate amp for my subs. Thanks for any suggestions. The component speakers I am looking at are the Morel Elates and the Focal KRX series...hard to choose between these to sets though 

Thanks again


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## Treesive

Doc69 said:


> Ok so Im new here but had a question...I just bought the Zapco 150.6 but have not installed it yet. So the question I have is Channels 1-4 has a selector switch of LP/HP/FULL on the crossover but Channel 5-6 only have LP and FULL. So what I'm wanting to do is run a set of 2-way components on channels 1 and 2. A set of 3-way components on channels 3 and 4. And finally a set of co-axial speakers in the rear door with channels 5 and 6. So what I'm wanting to know is where do I set the channels 1 thru 4 and then 5 thru 6 to accomplish this set up? I will be running a seperate amp for my subs. Thanks for any suggestions. The component speakers I am looking at are the Morel Elates and the Focal KRX series...hard to choose between these to sets though
> 
> Thanks again


Depends on if you have crossover capabilities on your headunit or some other piece earlier in the chain. I have all my amps set at full except my amp for subs which I set at low. I use a pioneer 80prs to set my crossover points but I know a lot of people use the amp to do this. I am a proponent of apps being gain blocks only. I don't like using their onboard crossover etc.


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## Doc69

Treesive said:


> Depends on if you have crossover capabilities on your headunit or some other piece earlier in the chain. I have all my amps set at full except my amp for subs which I set at low. I use a pioneer 80prs to set my crossover points but I know a lot of people use the amp to do this. I am a proponent of apps being gain blocks only. I don't like using their onboard crossover etc.


The guy at the car stereo store suggested I sell my old set of Focal Utopia's and run the Morel Elate 903's with that amp having 1 channel per speaker and using the Audison Bit One for the processor. I have the Pioneer AVH-X7500BT HU. Do you think this was be the better way to go than what I had previously posted?


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## Treesive

Doc69 said:


> The guy at the car stereo store suggested I sell my old set of Focal Utopia's and run the Morel Elate 903's with that amp having 1 channel per speaker and using the Audison Bit One for the processor. I have the Pioneer AVH-X7500BT HU. Do you think this was be the better way to go than what I had previously posted?


He is telling you in short to run active which to be honest is not easy to set up. If you go that route you will only be able to run 6 speakers total so your idea of a 2 way and 3 way set is not really in the cards for a quality sounding system. It is really up to you and how you feel comfort wise with individual tuning. I myself haven't gotten the results I wanted active and have always had better luck with passive setups where I fine tune from there to flatten response. I also have a big suv so a single component set has never been enough output. All things you need to ask yourself.


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## gckless

Good info here. Would really enjoy some more gut shots 

Couple questions: Any evidence for the aforementioned similarity to lesser amps? 

I am considering unloading my Zed Leviathan III (having a couple issues right now) for a Zapco Z-150.6. Has anyone ever done a comparison, or had listening experience with both? I would think the Zed would be more efficient, but the Zap would probably be sonically superior. Also wondering about power; the Zed is rated higher and has been shown to do at or above rated, just wondering what real-world performance would reveal.

Do the new Z's require Symbilink?


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## Doc69

Treesive said:


> He is telling you in short to run active which to be honest is not easy to set up. If you go that route you will only be able to run 6 speakers total so your idea of a 2 way and 3 way set is not really in the cards for a quality sounding system. It is really up to you and how you feel comfort wise with individual tuning. I myself haven't gotten the results I wanted active and have always had better luck with passive setups where I fine tune from there to flatten response. I also have a big suv so a single component set has never been enough output. All things you need to ask yourself.



Yea I think I'm gonna take your advice and just run passive...I decided on the Focal KRX3's and I might pick up a set of KRX2's once they come in and I can hear them first hand. Yea I don't think I would have the time or patience to tune and active setup.


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## Golden Ear

Doc69 said:


> Yea I think I'm gonna take your advice and just run passive...I decided on the Focal KRX3's and I might pick up a set of KRX2's once they come in and I can hear them first hand. Yea I don't think I would have the time or patience to tune and active setup.


The jbl ms-8 has auto-tuning and auto-t/a. Sounds way better than passive...just saying


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## gckless

As does the 80PRS. It's biz


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## Jagged Corn Flakes

So Zeff has nothing to do with Zapco board design anymore?


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## Treesive

Jagged Corn Flakes said:


> So Zeff has nothing to do with Zapco board design anymore?


Nope


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## Golden Ear

gckless said:


> As does the 80PRS. It's biz


Yup, I have one of those too and I like it very much.


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## samual

Did Robert Zapp designed this z series Zapco? I've heard from a trusted source that he is among the best in amplifier designer.


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## Jagged Corn Flakes

samual said:


> Did Robert Zapp designed this z series Zapco? I've heard from a trusted source that he is among the best in amplifier designer.


Never heard of him.


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## gckless

samual said:


> Did Robert Zapp designed this z series Zapco? I've heard from a trusted source that he is among the best in amplifier designer.


:inquisitive: :thumbsdown:

Do you mean Robert _Zeff_?


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## vivmike

Love the clean, powerful Zapco SQ.


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## Doc69

So which Zapco amp would be equal to or have more power than the JL 1000/1? My friend has a JL 1000/1 and I cant be showed up LOL...I'm currently looking at either the Zapco 2-KD (570w @ 4ohm and/or 1100w @ 2ohms) or the 3-KD (900w @ 4ohm and/or 1800w @ 2ohms). I know the Zapco's will go higher wattage with the lower ohm loads. And I know the JL stays the same wattage with different ohm loads (Not sure how this works). But I am wanting to run a single 12" Digital Design 9512i (800-1600w RMS) on one of these Amps...and I really dont want to go JL. Kinda partial to Zapco from all the good things I have read about them. Let me know y'alls thought on this...Thanks


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## neo_styles

Doc69 said:


> So which Zapco amp would be equal to or have more power than the JL 1000/1? My friend has a JL 1000/1 and I cant be showed up LOL...I'm currently looking at either the Zapco 2-KD (570w @ 4ohm and/or 1100w @ 2ohms) or the 3-KD (900w @ 4ohm and/or 1800w @ 2ohms). I know the Zapco's will go higher wattage with the lower ohm loads. And I know the JL stays the same wattage with different ohm loads (Not sure how this works). But I am wanting to run a single 12" Digital Design 9512i (800-1600w RMS) on one of these Amps...and I really dont want to go JL. Kinda partial to Zapco from all the good things I have read about them. Let me know y'alls thought on this...Thanks


Your best bet would be either the Z-2KD or, if your electrical is super-solid, the ZX-200.4 would blow that Slash amp out of the water. Only reason I don't recommend the 3KD is that there's a pretty hefty price hike between the 2KD and it, but if price is no object, your DD will appreciate the headroom. I've been considering a 2KD myself, but instead decided on a Zed Minotaur II for its more compact stature. If [email protected] isn't enough for me, I can always get a second and strap it for just about the same cost of a single 2KD.


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## Doc69

neo_styles said:


> Your best bet would be either the Z-2KD or, if your electrical is super-solid, the ZX-200.4 would blow that Slash amp out of the water. Only reason I don't recommend the 3KD is that there's a pretty hefty price hike between the 2KD and it, but if price is no object, your DD will appreciate the headroom. I've been considering a 2KD myself, but instead decided on a Zed Minotaur II for its more compact stature. If [email protected] isn't enough for me, I can always get a second and strap it for just about the same cost of a single 2KD.


Hmmm hadn't thought about ZX-200.4...I figured it was more for like mids and highs due to being multi channeled. What would this put out in single channel?


----------



## neo_styles

Doc69 said:


> Hmmm hadn't thought about ZX-200.4...I figured it was more for like mids and highs due to being multi channeled. What would this put out in single channel?


At 2 ohms, 1000W x 2.


----------



## Richv72

neo_styles said:


> At 2 ohms, 1000W x 2.


Why would you want 1000x2?. I would just get a mono amp for subs.


----------



## aj1735

Doc69 said:


> Hmmm hadn't thought about ZX-200.4...I figured it was more for like mids and highs due to being multi channeled. What would this put out in single channel?


I have a z150.4 and zx200.4 right now and run the z150.4 for the tweets and mids and then the zx200.4 for the mid bass and bridge the other pair for the sub. I can't think of that much better of a 4 way active a/b amp set up out of just two amps than that. I was going to sell thep air but now I think that I am going to find a way to make them work. I had them in my truck but the zx200.4 is to big to mount where I wanted it under my back seat. I switched to a c2k 2.0x, 3.0x, 6.0x, and 6.0x for the same set up. I am getting ready to build my second car but still saving for a deck for it. I will be using dyn 3 ways.


----------



## gckless

Anyone compare a Zed Leviathan to a Z-150.6? Really considering swapping out my Levi.


----------



## Richv72

Do leviatans come with birth sheets?.


----------



## gckless

Richv72 said:


> Do leviatans come with birth sheets?.


They do not.


----------



## darrenforeal

Ill still say it. I really really like my 150.2s Great amps.


----------



## Klifton Keplinger

Yes, the Z150.2 is a truly incredible amplifier. In every way.


----------



## Richv72

I have noticed the new zapcos do not hold their value well. Seems like once you buy it, you are stuck with it. I also noticed ac john hasnt posted here since 3/2/13. Seems like the guy was on every other day when the product was being marketed.


----------



## killerb87

The new amps just don't seem to get the same respect as the old ones.


----------



## darrenforeal

Well... I'll say it again, I've had both new and old and the new Z series are just as good if not better.


----------



## captainobvious

They look great and sound clean...and put out rated power easily.

My only criticisms would be the size and price. They are large, and they are not cheap. But they will certainly not be the "weak link" in a system. My first competition using them in both IASCA ProAm and MECA Modex was very successful. The Z-150.6 is a powerful amp that performs quite well.


----------



## darrenforeal

If we're going to look at size and price, look at the arc se, trus, genesis etc etc. the z series really aren't that big for an a/b and their price is better than any other compariable amp. The z 150.2 is pretty small for what it is. I'm not here as a fan boy or something as I acknowledge there are a ton of other great amps. But I just don't like to see bad info come about.


----------



## Golden Ear

The mosconi amps are pretty comporable in size, also.


----------



## darrenforeal

Golden Ear said:


> The mosconi amps are pretty comporable in size, also.


Case in point. Another fantastic sq amp that have similar sizes.


----------



## Richv72

Yeah but the mosconi's, tru's, audisons, and arcs all look cool and unique. The zapcos just dont look cool and they certainly dont look unique at all. They look like every other korean amp out there. The insides are made with good parts but when I look at the case I immediately think cheap outsourced amplifier with upgraded capacitors. How did they go from making a gorgeous amp like the c2k to not caring about style at all in the new z's.


----------



## darrenforeal

Richv72 said:


> Yeah but the mosconi's, tru's, audisons, and arcs all look cool and unique. The zapcos just dont look cool and they certainly dont look unique at all. They look like every other korean amp out there. The insides are made with good parts but when I look at the case I immediately think cheap outsourced amplifier with upgraded capacitors. How did they go from making a gorgeous amp like the c2k to not caring about style at all in the new z's.


i suppose that comes down to personal opinion. Because I like the looks just fine. That said function over form is more important to me even if I didn't like the looks.


----------



## Elektra

TrickyRicky said:


> Sorry but by the looks of it, there's a highly probability that the same Korean factory that makes those amps for everyone else (massive, critical mass, and a bunch of others discussed in other threads....LOOK UNDER CRITICAL MASS RIP OFF".
> 
> You guys do know that Zapco was sold from the last American owner to a company at a disclosed amount of money two years ago right? Now their milking Zapco for every last penny they can get....


100% .... Zapco today isn't in the same ball park as the older amps!

All of you loyalists that rant and rave as to how beautiful and how brilliant they sound should really get their ears tested! 

They sound terrible! No other way to describe them! Using cheap components and selling them for ridiculous prices is only going to be undoing of a great American company who used to sell great products! 

Really their are products that will knock the guts out of these amps at a quarter of the price!

Have you noticed how a $1000 amp which is 6 months old can't even sell for $500 on eBay - their is a Z150.6 for sale that has been there for months and they reduced the price and still can't sell it!

The older C2K amps are fetching higher prices! And more sort after!

Those of you who go onto a public forum and praise the new Z amps are either sponsored or friends to spread the word on the new amps to generate public Interest! Anyone with a decent pair of ears can easily tell the difference between the new and old and choose the old every time!


----------



## darrenforeal

Elektra said:


> 100% .... Zapco today isn't in the same ball park as the older amps!
> 
> All of you loyalists that rant and rave as to how beautiful and how brilliant they sound should really get their ears tested!
> 
> They sound terrible! No other way to describe them! Using cheap components and selling them for ridiculous prices is only going to be undoing of a great American company who used to sell great products!
> 
> Really their are products that will knock the guts out of these amps at a quarter of the price!
> 
> Have you noticed how a $1000 amp which is 6 months old can't even sell for $500 on eBay - their is a Z150.6 for sale that has been there for months and they reduced the price and still can't sell it!
> 
> The older C2K amps are fetching higher prices! And more sort after!
> 
> Those of you who go onto a public forum and praise the new Z amps are either sponsored or friends to spread the word on the new amps to generate public Interest! Anyone with a decent pair of ears can easily tell the difference between the new and old and choose the old every time!


here you are again with your overuse of exclamation points. Get a life man, and *stop acting like your opinions are facts*. *WE GET IT, YOU DON'T LIKE THEM.* We've been down this road and everyone knows your deal.

And i am neither sponsored nor "friends." *When you make suppositions like that you just expose your foolishness, bias, and ignorance.*


----------



## Richv72

darrenforeal said:


> here you are again with your overuse of exclamation points. Get a life man, and *stop acting like your opinions are facts*. *WE GET IT, YOU DON'T LIKE THEM.* We've been down this road and everyone knows your deal.
> 
> And i am neither sponsored nor "friends." *When you make suppositions like that you just expose your foolishness, bias, and ignorance.*


In all fairness darren you have been swinging from zapcos balls since they came out with these amps, didnt they even send you a special paragraphic crossover thing as well that isnt even available to the general public?. Your opinion is even more biased as electras opinion, because you got extra stuff from them. 

Edit: My bad darren it was big red that got the free stuff.


----------



## darrenforeal

Richv72 said:


> In all fairness darren you have been swinging from zapcos balls since they came out with these amps, didnt they even send you a special paragraphic crossover thing as well that isnt even available to the general public?. Your opinion is even more biased as electras opinion, because you got extra stuff from them.


I think you have me mistaken for someone else. I received nothing extra or free from them. Further I just said I really like the amps and think they are a good bang for your buck when compared to their top competitor, arc se. I never said they were objectively better than a mosconi, arc or the like. Simply that IMO I really like them and think they are excellent. But unlike Electra, I don't say that they are the best thing ever and if you don't like them you are deaf, friends with their competitors, or paid( sponsored) by other companies to dislike them. Just like I didn't say you were blind and lacked taste for disliking the looks. Does that clarify things for you?


----------



## Treesive

I really do dislike that they went with a cheap generic look. Doesn't scream zapco at all and that is a shame.


----------



## BigRed

Elektra said:


> 100% .... Zapco today isn't in the same ball park as the older amps!
> 
> All of you loyalists that rant and rave as to how beautiful and how brilliant they sound should really get their ears tested!
> 
> They sound terrible! No other way to describe them! Using cheap components and selling them for ridiculous prices is only going to be undoing of a great American company who used to sell great products!
> 
> Really their are products that will knock the guts out of these amps at a quarter of the price!
> 
> Have you noticed how a $1000 amp which is 6 months old can't even sell for $500 on eBay - their is a Z150.6 for sale that has been there for months and they reduced the price and still can't sell it!
> 
> The older C2K amps are fetching higher prices! And more sort after!
> 
> Those of you who go onto a public forum and praise the new Z amps are either sponsored or friends to spread the word on the new amps to generate public Interest! Anyone with a decent pair of ears can easily tell the difference between the new and old and choose the old every time!


Hey Electra! You seem obsessed with putting the amps down now. You are trolling ebay and finding somebody that can't sell the amp at a certain price? LMAO!! dude, relax! There are tons of amps for sale on there, as well as this site that don't sell for what they paid for them. Its call free trade!

I guess all the judges at finals this year are deaf too. The amps did fairly well. Like more world championships than any other amp mfgr there. You don't like them. We get it. But you seem obsessed with trying to stick your dick in their ass every chance you get with your comments.

And to whoever said I got something that wasn't available, it was a controller with presets for the processor, NOT the amps. And for the record, I don't need FREE ****! I can run whatever I want. I paid for my amps just like everybody else. I happen to like them and think they sound really good for a deaf guy


----------



## reno.sa

Why do people get so upset when someone posts a negative review. Everyone has a right to state their own opinion, and should not be told off by die hard fans that don't agree with them. I have also installed and played around with the new Z series amps. (z150.4, z150.6 as well as the Z1k) and to be honest I was not happy with the sound they produced I opened them up and saw that a lot of the internals were Korean parts which are not really well know for SQ (from what I have read up on the net) most of the capacitors that I saw in the amps are a brand called Lelon which I tried reading up on the net and cant find anything good about them. I even considered replacing the lelon caps with Elna Silmic2, Panasonic T-UP or T-HA but it wasn't cost effective ( Bad capacitors ) (the website where I read up on the capacitors)

I removed the amps from the vehicle and put them on the market and manged to sell them eventually after 4 months at half their retail selling price. I am now searching for the C2K range of amps which have got great reviews over the years. I managed to get a C2K 2.5x which I have installed and IMO it is easier to listen to with no harshness or coloration in the sound. Want to see a professional reviewer take on the z series amplifiers and compare it to other SQ brands like Brax, Sinfoni, arc, audison etc.

Then again I can see where Zapco is coming from as the SQ market is getting smaller and smaller and not many people are willing to spend $2000+ plus for a amplifier. The majority of People will rather buy a cheap nasty amp. So they also have to adapt to the market to offer the best possible but affordable products to target the masses to make it viable for the company to be profitable.


----------



## darrenforeal

^I respect that. Your impression. Your opinion. No problem. Where I take issue, with anything, is when people state their opinion as if it is a fact. Especially when an individual then attacks those who do like them and say they need to have their ears examined. On top of that it is a person that only only posts here to **** on things. Even then that is their discretion, but don't confusions opinions with facts.


----------



## captainobvious

darrenforeal said:


> If we're going to look at size and price, look at the arc se, trus, genesis etc etc. the z series really aren't that big for an a/b and their price is better than any other compariable amp. The z 150.2 is pretty small for what it is. I'm not here as a fan boy or something as I acknowledge there are a ton of other great amps. But I just don't like to see bad info come about.


There's nothing "bad" intended by what I just said. And it's not "bad info" either.


My (direct) experience is only with the (larger) six channel  . I'm quite sure the 4 channel is in line with other A/B four channel offerings. In fact, I'd say they are pretty comparable to the Arc cxlr series I used previously. I say the six channel amps are 'large' in general. But seeing the amount of power they put out, all class A/B- I can understand why. The fact remains though, they ARE large. I'd say half of the people who have seen them in my vehicle have said this very thing. There is no issue with the power or sound with these units, that's for sure.


----------



## papasin

I use the Mosconi A-class and Zero3 amps and am super happy with them. Similarly, I have fellow competitors who run the Zapco Z Series amps. To be frank, those amps do equally well in the competition circuit and I've heard several vehicles that use them...and to my ears, they are equally competitive as the others being mentioned (i.e. Mosconi, Arc, etc.).

IMHO, it is disrespectful to say things about folks that run the Z amps (or any other product) when assumptions are made/given about the individuals as people and why they run those products without having the facts straight. Many of us who compete don't get anything for free (especially big ticket items like amps). In fact, it is more and more the case in these economic times that we make our choices as individuals much as everyone else is. As already been stated, people are entitled to their opinions and I perfectly respect that. Just don't make assumptions and make sure when you are stating things about people, that you aren't stating something that is off base as it can quickly blow up in your own face.

I know BigRed reasonably well and I'm sure he doesn't need me defending him, but think about it for a second. The "controller" that he got for free as stated was for the Z8 as he plainly put it out there. Despite that, care to guess what processor he uses for his competition vehicle? It's not the Z8 as he indicated in his build thread, so folks need to realize that it's not all about brand loyalty or "free items" that motivates many of us that compete when we select our equipment.


----------



## captainobvious

Elektra said:


> 100% .... Zapco today isn't in the same ball park as the older amps!
> 
> All of you loyalists that rant and rave as to how beautiful and how brilliant they sound should really get their ears tested!
> 
> They sound terrible! No other way to describe them! Using cheap components and selling them for ridiculous prices is only going to be undoing of a great American company who used to sell great products!
> 
> *Really their are products that will knock the guts out of these amps at a quarter of the price!*
> 
> Have you noticed how a $1000 amp which is 6 months old can't even sell for $500 on eBay - their is a Z150.6 for sale that has been there for months and they reduced the price and still can't sell it!
> 
> The older C2K amps are fetching higher prices! And more sort after!
> 
> Those of you who go onto a public forum and praise the new Z amps are either sponsored or friends to spread the word on the new amps to generate public Interest! Anyone with a decent pair of ears can easily tell the difference between the new and old and choose the old every time!



You're clearly jaded about your experience with the new amps and hey, that's fine. I probably wouldn't go out of my way to recommend a product I had a bad experience with either. However, I don't share your opinion about the Z series amps. The Z-150.6 amps I use sound neutral (as a quality amp should) and provide ample power.


I find the bolded part actually comical. If you're talking retail price, I'd love to hear which 6 channel you've used that "knocks the guts out" of the Z-150.6 at a quarter of the price.

??


.


----------



## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> here you are again with your overuse of exclamation points. Get a life man, and *stop acting like your opinions are facts*. *WE GET IT, YOU DON'T LIKE THEM.* We've been down this road and everyone knows your deal.
> 
> And i am neither sponsored nor "friends." *When you make suppositions like that you just expose your foolishness, bias, and ignorance.*


Bud.....!!!!

Ignorance is plaguing you like a fat kid with his hand in a cookie jar! It's not my fault you can't speak or write proper English! 

To me I am stating facts as I have tested numerous products against the new Z and every time it wasn't the weapon of choice! 

If I were you I take the blinkers off and start looking left and right cause yo will be left behind before you know it!

This forum isn't a Zapco ass kissing forum - so if you don't like my opinions or correct English - then get a life! 

People who know Zapco by name and reputation are being fooled by some of the posts in here - they will be buying a $1000 amp thinking it's going outplay a $5000 amp! Instead they will come to the realization that they wasted their cash on depreciating asset that's worth nothing in the real world as people are no longer buying in Korean products masquerading as all American products! Like they used to be - just read any of their older manuals and all the things that they claim was great like - "Made in the USA" and "balanced line inputs" heck they even show a diagram explaining why it's so much better! And Damping factors in the 1000's and high transient numbers with a statement that said "100% overbuilt"

So where is that now?? Where are the international reviews supporting this forums claims? All I have seen is how a $100 MTX amp beat a $700 Z amp...,

That's pathetic! Even the newer Soundstream amps did better... 

I get the impression that even if someone physically showed you - you still won't believe it and call snake oil!


----------



## sqnut

Elektra said:


> Damping factors in the 1000's and high transient numbers with a statement that said "100% overbuilt"


Damping factor? Seriously?


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> Damping factor? Seriously?


Ok so most of the amps are rated 1000! - so yeah seriously!


----------



## sqnut

Damping factor is a BS spec cooked up by the marketing teams to sell more amps. Once an amp is past 50 it's enough. ALL amps will hit this number. You're not going to hear any difference on account of an amp having a DF of 1000.


----------



## captainobvious

Still waiting for Elektra to produce a list of the amps that "knock the guts out of these at a quarter of the price".


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> Still waiting for Elektra to produce a list of the amps that "knock the guts out of these at a quarter of the price".


Thought I did...

Maybe didn't send! I had a long story before but it's late here so I'll say this 
1) Helix A6 - own one these and yes tested it
2) Brax Platinum 6 - yes own one and yes no contest
3) Tru Super billet 6 - just looking at the internals will suggest superiority
4) EOS AE 980 LE + AE 2170 - own older versions and new ones are purportedly have even better internals to the old ones - these are better than the Z - I know these are not 6 channel amps but the combined value is less than the Z150.6 

I could go on...


----------



## Elektra

sqnut said:


> Damping factor is a BS spec cooked up by the marketing teams to sell more amps. Once an amp is past 50 it's enough. ALL amps will hit this number. You're not going to hear any difference on account of an amp having a DF of 1000.


I of agree! Still it was a key point in the marketing strategy kind of like saying look at me I have a big brain... Lol! You get my drift!


----------



## captainobvious

Elektra said:


> Thought I did...
> 
> Maybe didn't send! I had a long story before but it's late here so I'll say this
> 1) Helix A6 - own one these and yes tested it
> 2) Brax Platinum 6 - yes own one and yes no contest
> 3) Tru Super billet 6 - just looking at the internals will suggest superiority
> 4) EOS AE 980 LE + AE 2170 - own older versions and new ones are purportedly have even better internals to the old ones - these are better than the Z - I know these are not 6 channel amps but the combined value is less than the Z150.6
> 
> I could go on...


The Helix A6 puts out half the power at a similar price.
Both the Brax and the Tru are WAYYYY more expensive then the Zapco.

Wait a second...did you mean to say that you know of amps that outperform the Z-150.6 at 4 times the price...? :laugh:


----------



## darrenforeal

I had a stage 3 super billet 6. Great amp. Retails at something stupid like 5k. Amazing quality internals. I sold this to switch to the zapcos. And I feel that I did not down grade. Even when using a line driver with the tru, my z150.2s have a lower noise floor. Tonality for both were excellent in my install. Oh and also after installing the zapcos with a slight retune for the amp change, the car scored higher with the same meca judge that had heard it with the tru. I'm not saying the z150.2 is the best amp ever made, but the proof is in the pudding with the majority of the happy deaf consumers, competitors and judges.


----------



## Richv72

I think some people like zapco more now thats its a non us company. Not me though. Wait till you need to get it serviced in 5 years, I bet it wont be easy. Zapco doesn't even repair old zapco amps anymore which is a disgrace.


----------



## WestCo

Richv72 said:


> I think some people like zapco more now thats its a non us company. Not me though. Wait till you need to get it serviced in 5 years, I bet it wont be easy. Zapco doesn't even repair old zapco amps anymore which is a disgrace.


Damn it!
Who is gonna service my zapco amp now?? ((((


----------



## BigRed

Richv72 said:


> I think some people like zapco more now thats its a non us company. Not me though. Wait till you need to get it serviced in 5 years, I bet it wont be easy. *Zapco doesn't even repair old zapco amps anymore which is a disgrace*.


you are absolutely 100% INCORRECT!! Zapco repairs all of their amps, including the older ones. My buddy sent his older amp in a month ago and has it back working fine. Where do you get these facts?


----------



## Golden Ear

I'm not sure how far back their service goes because I have a couple Z220s that are approx 25 years old and they would not work on them, I called and asked when one of them stopped working. I can't blame them since, I'm sure, no one from 1988 still works there I heard a truck that is using Zapco Z amps and it was very impressive. I don't own any myself but I wouldn't hesitate to buy them.


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> The Helix A6 puts out half the power at a similar price.
> Both the Brax and the Tru are WAYYYY more expensive then the Zapco.
> 
> Wait a second...did you mean to say that you know of amps that outperform the Z-150.6 at 4 times the price...? :laugh:


The Helix A6 sounds better... Period! Most of the time 60rms is sufficient for a high end SQ system... We are talking SQ here aren't we? 

I listed the others as better sounding amps - the EOS murderers the entire Z range - not for outright power but for SQ! As we are comparing a middle/entry level amp against the worlds best amps - according to some on this forum! 

EOS makes hybrid valve amp also which I have not heard but costs the same as a Z amp - these are rated higher than the EOS amps I have and if that's the case makes this amp probably better than anything Zapco has ever produced! 

Of course the Z amp is the best right? So we can say that the entry level EOS is better than anything Zapco has ever produced!

The most expensive EOS costs less than the Z150.6..., if I am not mistaken!


----------



## BigRed

Elektra said:


> The Helix A6 sounds better... Period! Most of the time 60rms is sufficient for a high end SQ system... We are talking SQ here aren't we?
> 
> I listed the others as better sounding amps - the EOS murderers the entire Z range - not for outright power but for SQ! As we are comparing a middle/entry level amp against the worlds best amps - according to some on this forum!
> 
> EOS makes hybrid valve amp also which I have not heard but costs the same as a Z amp - these are rated higher than the EOS amps I have and if that's the case makes this amp probably better than anything Zapco has ever produced!
> 
> Of course the Z amp is the best right? So we can say that the entry level EOS is better than anything Zapco has ever produced!
> 
> The most expensive EOS costs less than the Z150.6..., if I am not mistaken!


LMFAO!! So now you are comparing an amp you have not heard and saying it will blow the z series away? LOL!!! The ONLY amp you can come up with that costs the same as a Z150.6, and obviously you have gotten away from the 1/4 price remark! All the amps you have mentioned originally are a ton more than Z150.6 as someone already mentioned.

So what makes you such an expert on what sounds good? What is your resume with SQ?

There are lots of great amps out there. I happen to think after trying lots of brands, they are as good as any I have tried.


----------



## captainobvious

My favorite amps had always been the Arc CXLR series. I've always loved their looks and their incredible sound. While I still prefer their visuals slightly over the Z series, the Z's are in the car right now...and that's saying something.


----------



## vivmike

I think the Z's sound very clean. Never read someone hate Zapco so much.


----------



## reno.sa

If I may ask how much did you sell the super billit 6 for? I would have loved to have gotten my hands on a good condition amp like that. Is the amp sold or is the sale still pending?

(Quote for darenforeal)


----------



## Richv72

BigRed said:


> you are absolutely 100% INCORRECT!! Zapco repairs all of their amps, including the older ones. My buddy sent his older amp in a month ago and has it back working fine. Where do you get these facts?


They dont repair z220's or anything else from the mid 90's. My question is where do you get your information?. I actually talked to them about it. Dont worry though zed audio will fix it for a fee, because apparently zed can fix zapco amps, but zapco cant get parts for zapco amps anymore. That right there soured me on zapco and made me think very negatively about the company. When your main competitor from the beginning of car audio can fix your amps and you cant, then you are no longer respectable. Just box them up when they get off the ship from korea I guess, and dont bother wasting the time on a birthsheet because your customers arent worth it I guess.


----------



## Elektra

BigRed said:


> LMFAO!! So now you are comparing an amp you have not heard and saying it will blow the z series away? LOL!!! The ONLY amp you can come up with that costs the same as a Z150.6, and obviously you have gotten away from the 1/4 price remark! All the amps you have mentioned originally are a ton more than Z150.6 as someone already mentioned.
> 
> So what makes you such an expert on what sounds good? What is your resume with SQ?
> 
> There are lots of great amps out there. I happen to think after trying lots of brands, they are as good as any I have tried.


I think your selective reading here!

I said the EOS amps that I have are better than the Z series amps!

Those amps are entry level and cost 1/4 of the Z series amps!

What resume would you like? Must I list all the equipment I have owned in the last 20years? Or that I have never been beaten in a SQ comp? 

At the end of the day it isn't a dick measuring comp - it's about what is the best you can get for the $$$ your prepared to spend!

I have to LMAO when I read how passionate you guys are about a brand that used to be American and now it's Korean - the fact that you guys support a company that would rather employ Koreans than give jobs to Americans who actually need the work - all to make a higher profit at the end of the day!

With a cheaper product - to me that would make me think about where my loyalty is - at least I know my priorities and that is the best possible SQ - if that means a Chinese company makes it then so be it - until something else comes along that is an improvement to my ears - doesn't matter who makes it!

You should all be in line thanking me for giving you all a option on an alternative - if SQ is your game then why not? What do you have to lose? 

I once listened to the old importer of Zapco car - he had Iforce amps and the Zapco SQ speakers - I think they were the blue ones or red can't remember and he had 2 Atomic subs running of the OEM BMW radio with a line convertor - and I remember leaving his car thinking that was not bad at all! 

If I had to compare how I felt after both times I would honestly say that the Iforce setup sounded better!


----------



## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> I had a stage 3 super billet 6. Great amp. Retails at something stupid like 5k. Amazing quality internals. I sold this to switch to the zapcos. And I feel that I did not down grade. Even when using a line driver with the tru, my z150.2s have a lower noise floor. Tonality for both were excellent in my install. Oh and also after installing the zapcos with a slight retune for the amp change, the car scored higher with the same meca judge that had heard it with the tru. I'm not saying the z150.2 is the best amp ever made, but the proof is in the pudding with the majority of the happy deaf consumers, competitors and judges.


Daren are you for real! You swopped a super billet 6 for a Zapco Z amp????

Dude how is your butt hole? Sore I would imagine - that is the stupidest thing I have read in a long time! 

LMAO!!!! Is an understatement of the century!!!


----------



## captainobvious

Richv72 said:


> They dont repair z220's or anything else from the mid 90's. My question is where do you get your information?. I actually talked to them about it. Dont worry though zed audio will fix it for a fee, because apparently zed can fix zapco amps, but zapco cant get parts for zapco amps anymore. That right there soured me on zapco and made me think very negatively about the company. When your main competitor from the beginning of car audio can fix your amps and you cant, then you are no longer respectable. Just box them up when they get off the ship from korea I guess, and dont bother wasting the time on a birthsheet because your customers arent worth it I guess.


I can understand your frustration with the repair thing for sure. I wanted to do the same with some old Arc amps and they weren't able to repair/refurbish them either. Here's the thing...these companies simply don't continue to produce and stock parts for amplifiers that are this old. It's not just a Zapco or Arc thing, that's pretty much common practice. Can you imagine the amount of warehouse space it would take to keep all of the tooling, molds and parts to properly repair/refurbish all of the equipment you've ever produced? 
I think it's reasonable to expect a company to provide these services for a certain post-life-cycle of a product. Beyond that, we have other industry resources for that.

As for the birthsheet thing...Personally I find it overrated and basically useless. What do you need a birthsheet for, really?


----------



## captainobvious

Elektra said:


> Daren are you for real! You swopped a super billet 6 for a Zapco Z amp????
> 
> Dude how is your butt hole? Sore I would imagine - that is the stupidest thing I have read in a long time!
> 
> LMAO!!!! Is an understatement of the century!!!



Imagine that...someone with ACTUAL owner experience with both units. You know, who has an *actual* base for comparison of the units and not just the pretty pictures and internet fluff. Then you criticize as though you were able to make that same comparison... Dope.

And he probably saved a boatload of cash in the process too. This is a game of diminishing returns. Do you get $3K more performance out of the amp? Think about it.



Perhaps the clean, neutral sound of the Zapco's simply exposed other system flaws you're experiencing which a more "colored" amp is helping to 'mask'...Nothing wrong with that. But just because you didn't like it and it didn't work for YOU in YOUR system, doesn't mean the amps aren't performing brilliantly for others. They have certainly fared very well in the SQ competition lanes...
You seem to be so stuck on the "Korean made" thing. You say in one breath that you want your dollars to go to American workers and berate us for supporting a company who went from US manufacturing to Korean, then in the next, you say SQ is your main priority and you'd go with a Chinese product. You're chock full of nonsense and contradiction. You can't even get your own story straight.

You have a yap, but THINK before you use it.


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> Imagine that...someone with ACTUAL owner experience with both units. You know, who has an *actual* base for comparison of the units and not just the pretty pictures and internet fluff. Then you criticize as though you were able to make that same comparison... Dope.
> 
> And he probably saved a boatload of cash in the process too. This is a game of diminishing returns. Do you get $3K more performance out of the amp? Think about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps the clean, neutral sound of the Zapco's simply exposed other system flaws you're experiencing which a more "colored" amp is helping to 'mask'...Nothing wrong with that. But just because you didn't like it and it didn't work for YOU in YOUR system, doesn't mean the amps aren't performing brilliantly for others. They have certainly fared very well in the SQ competition lanes...
> You seem to be so stuck on the "Korean made" thing. You say in one breath that you want your dollars to go to American workers and berate us for supporting a company who went from US manufacturing to Korean, then in the next, you say SQ is your main priority and you'd go with a Chinese product. You're chock full of nonsense and contradiction. You can't even get your own story straight.
> 
> You have a yap, but THINK before you use it.



Dude firstly I am not American.... So if I support a Chinese made Russian branded product that's my issue as I said I want SQ not a name brand

That fluff you mentioned is their for a reason! And if you think it's just fluff then and go around telling people that your an ignorant fool who should not post anything anywhere as your input is really useless! 

I mean Kimber Cable high end components ... $100's of of high end stuff someone at TRU is LHAO at the profoundly dumb statement!

Whether you get $3500 more improvement - bud if you even dream to call yourself an audiophile and go around giving people opinions on SQ and products you will know that a true audiophile will spend the $3500 even for a 10% improvement! 

All I can say is WOW!! I can't believe what I just read! 

And Darrenforreal thinks he made the right decision then he has more cents than brains!


----------



## captainobvious

Elektra said:


> Dude firstly I am not American.... So if I support a Chinese made Russian branded product that's my issue as I said I want SQ not a name brand


I said you contradict yourself- which you do.

Case in point:



Elektra said:


> the fact that you guys support a company that would rather employ Koreans than give jobs to Americans who actually need the work - all to make a higher profit at the end of the day!





Elektra said:


> at least I know my priorities and that is the best possible SQ - if that means a Chinese company makes it then so be it ... - doesn't matter who makes it!


CONTRADICTION



Elektra said:


> At the end of the day it isn't a dick measuring comp





Elektra said:


> You should all be in line thanking me for giving you all a option on an alternative


CONTRADICTION



sqnut said:


> Damping factor is a BS spec cooked up by the marketing teams to sell more amps. Once an amp is past 50 it's enough. ALL amps will hit this number. You're not going to hear any difference on account of an amp having a DF of 1000.





Elektra said:


> *I of agree!* Still it was a key point in the marketing strategy kind of like saying look at me I have a big brain... Lol! You get my drift!





Elektra said:


> That fluff you mentioned is their for a reason! And if you think it's just fluff then and go around telling people that your an ignorant fool who should not post anything anywhere as your input is really useless!


CONTRADICTION

Sooooo you agree it's fluff, but then you don't agree it's fluff. It's not meaningful, unless it's meaningful to make your point about one amplifier being better than another based on a damping factor stat that you agree isn't important? Oh I C....:laugh:

So who's input is useless here again...? 




Elektra said:


> I listed the others as better sounding amps - the EOS murderers the entire Z range


So then you purchased the entire Z range, installed them in your system and came upon this conclusion...yes...? 



Elektra said:


> EOS makes hybrid valve amp also *which I have not heard* but costs the same as a Z amp - these are* rated higher* than the EOS amps I have and if that's the case makes this amp probably better than anything Zapco has ever produced!


You make broad assumptions about a product you _*admittedly*_ have NEVER heard and use that as a basis for fact. Good job fruit cake.






Elektra said:


> All I can say is WOW!! I can't believe what I just read!


Something we finally agree on.


----------



## Treesive

My quick two cents on the z series. I personally own the 2kd and 150.4 and have had great results with them like every other zapco product I have used. On the performance side I have nothing to complain about. Unfortunately I am an old school type person and really hate the cosmetic sellout to a generic Korean heatsink. Zapco was one of several high class brands that you could distinguish in a heartbeat just by looking at them if no writing was present. That is no longer true and literally sucks imo. I'm sure zapco has a reason for it but I don't know.


----------



## BigRed

Elektra said:


> The Helix A6 sounds better... Period! Most of the time 60rms is sufficient for a high end SQ system... We are talking SQ here aren't we?
> 
> I listed the others as better sounding amps - the EOS murderers the entire Z range - not for outright power but for SQ! As we are comparing a middle/entry level amp against the worlds best amps - according to some on this forum!
> 
> EOS makes hybrid valve amp also which* I have not heard but costs the same as a Z amp *- these are rated higher than the EOS amps I have and if that's the case makes this amp probably better than anything Zapco has ever produced!
> 
> Of course the Z amp is the best right? So we can say that the entry level EOS is better than anything Zapco has ever produced!
> 
> The most expensive EOS costs less than the Z150.6..., if I am not mistaken!


Electra - You wrote it douchebag!! Lmao!! This is the amp that you said is comparable in price to the Z amps, but not even 1/4 price idiot!

I find you amusing on this site. You only post here to put things down, which is fine, but it does lead one to believe your real motive. That is why I questioned your resume. 

I don't care where something is made. A human being is a human being putting stuff together. I'm sure you have things in your home that are made in china, or have parts from Korea. Lets be honest here, most electronics have parts from the pacific rim...end of story. I guess you should get rid of your tv and head unit because its made in china/korea? lol If this comes as a revelation to you Electra, post those items for sale on here, maybe somebody will buy them. Just don't expect to get full nut!


----------



## darrenforeal

It was not a dumb decision and my butthole is just fine thanks. The tonality is just as good as the tru and the noise floor is lower. They also have just as much clean power. I have experience with both, others have heard the two in my car, judges have judged it with both. The consensus was the z150.2 was as good as the tru with a lower notice floor. But none of that matters cause we are all deaf and delusional right!?!


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> I said you contradict yourself- which you do.
> 
> Case in point:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CONTRADICTION
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CONTRADICTION
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CONTRADICTION
> 
> Sooooo you agree it's fluff, but then you don't agree it's fluff. It's not meaningful, unless it's meaningful to make your point about one amplifier being better than another based on a damping factor stat that you agree isn't important? Oh I C....:laugh:
> 
> So who's input is useless here again...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So then you purchased the entire Z range, installed them in your system and came upon this conclusion...yes...?
> 
> 
> 
> You make broad assumptions about a product you _*admittedly*_ have NEVER heard and use that as a basis for fact. Good job fruit cake.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something we finally agree on.


Sorry what assumptions? 

The assumption the the top of the range valve amp is better than the entry level class AB amp I have already? You don't need a brain to assume that an amp in the same company which is double the price is not better? I think we can assume?

I actually don't agree with any thing you say - their is a reason why a cap cost 10 times more than another and cabling cost 10 times more than the other..,

Do you think an RCA cable that costs 1$ sounds the same as a 10$ cable? If you believe this then stick to medioucrasy and leave the audiophile stuff to the grown ups..

If you read carefully you will see that I have not contradicted myself at all... Your just clutching straws to justify your opinion. 

Just to make it clear.., an amp that has the right quality internals with a decent board layout will always sound better than an amp with a decent board layout but using cheap components - that's not my opinion it's fact!

Deal with this audiophile revelation - it's been around for a while...


----------



## captainobvious

Elektra said:


> Sorry what assumptions?
> 
> The assumption the the top of the range valve amp is better than the entry level class AB amp I have already? You don't need a brain to assume that an amp in the same company which is double the price is not better? I think we can assume?
> 
> I actually don't agree with any thing you say - their is a reason why a cap cost 10 times more than another and cabling cost 10 times more than the other..,
> 
> Do you think an RCA cable that costs 1$ sounds the same as a 10$ cable? If you believe this then stick to medioucrasy and leave the audiophile stuff to the grown ups..


If it measures the same and delivers the signal as effectively, then YES. Rub all the magic SQ juice you want onto your directional electron compressing, gold plated, diamond coated RCA cables sheathed in unicorn foreskin and sprinkled with fairy dust- then support them with your rosewood 'cable stands' and kick back with a pint of your favorite ice cold snake oil enjoy the good life. 





Elektra said:


> If you read carefully you will see that I have not contradicted myself at all... Your just clutching straws to justify your opinion.


Perhaps you need to re-read your own posts that I have carefully laid out for you above, take a moment to digest...and then rebut.



Elektra said:


> Just to make it clear.., an amp that has the right quality internals with a decent board layout will always sound better than an amp with a decent board layout but using cheap components - that's not my opinion it's fact!


That would again be your OPINION. You have ZERO clue about what the right quality internals are unless you implicitly understand the design of the amplifier, what locations,number, types, sizes and tolerances are needed for proper operation, etc.
If you take 93 octane gas and put it in your econobox DESIGNED for 87, do you think you're increasing your performance? Don't be a donkey.




Elektra said:


> Deal with this audiophile revelation - it's been around for a while...


Audiophools like you are why the "audiophile" moniker is these days associated with jackassery. Please educate yourself and realize that your singular experience does not equal the experience of all others.


----------



## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> It was not a dumb decision and my butthole is just fine thanks. The tonality is just as good as the tru and the noise floor is lower. They also have just as much clean power. I have experience with both, others have heard the two in my car, judges have judged it with both. The consensus was the z150.2 was as good as the tru with a lower notice floor. But none of that matters cause we are all deaf and delusional right!?!


Thanks funny cos the thing I noticed is that I could hear the background hiss - that was most annoying - you say the Z had lower noise - I somehow doubt it! Cos neither my EOS, Brax, DC amp had that much noise infact with all my other amps I could not hear the noise but with the Z it was like dogs balls..


----------



## darrenforeal

Elektra said:


> Thanks funny cos the thing I noticed is that I could hear the background hiss - that was most annoying - you say the Z had lower noise - I somehow doubt it! Cos neither my EOS, Brax, DC amp had that much noise infact with all my other amps I could not hear the noise but with the Z it was like dogs balls..


Doubt it if you must. I'm not mistaken in my case. I don't invalidate your OPINION or experience, so no reason to tell me my experience was untrue/wrong or inaccurate. Doing that says a lot about you. If the zapcos weren't as good I would have kept the tru then taken a hit and sold the 150.2s. Iirc your experience was with a 150.6. The source unit is also a factor; my drz9255 has less noise than my p99 in my other car. A lot of variables can be involved.


----------



## captainobvious

Probably due to the overbuilt isolated DC-DC power supply on the DRZ. It's a beautiful piece. 

If it had a more modern featureset, I never would have sold mine.


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> If it measures the same and delivers the signal as effectively, then YES. Rub all the magic SQ juice you want onto your directional electron compressing, gold plated, diamond coated RCA cables sheathed in unicorn foreskin and sprinkled with fairy dust- then support them with your rosewood 'cable stands' and kick back with a pint of your favorite ice cold snake oil enjoy the good life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps you need to re-read your own posts that I have carefully laid out for you above, take a moment to digest...and then rebut.
> 
> 
> 
> That would again be your OPINION. You have ZERO clue about what the right quality internals are unless you implicitly understand the design of the amplifier, what locations,number, types, sizes and tolerances are needed for proper operation, etc.
> If you take 93 octane gas and put it in your econobox DESIGNED for 87, do you think you're increasing your performance? Don't be a donkey.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Audiophools like you are why the "audiophile" moniker is these days associated with jackassery. Please educate yourself and realize that your singular experience does not equal the experience of all others.


So Van den Hul, Monster, Audio Quest etc.... Are selling snake oil? I tested Audioquest cable with the owner of the store present (he obviously didn't want high value cables leaving his store unattended) I had a setup which allowed me to swop 1m cables out easily - I tried AQ king cobra through to SKY so for those who don't know $250 - $2000 each and through every swop out I could hear a difference - it all depended on how much cash you were willing to spend! 

I am not a rich individual so I could not afford $2000 x 4 sets but if I were I would spend it. So I settled for King Cobra on the RCA's and coffee on the IPod cable

Captain your obviously hand cuffed to the Zapco bed so our discussions are going nowhere as much as I love ragging people on this forum - it would be nice to get people to have an educated discussion about SQ and product!

Fact is that time will tell if the Z series will save Zapco or not but in my books it's become just another amp selling for more than its worth! 

I can see talking about high end components such as Munforf Elna etc are never going convince anyone anything! Fluff as it has been explained to me - All I can say is if you put racing fuel in a donkey it will perform better but if you had a donkey to start off with you'll never get a race horse out of it without major surgery!

I do believe John knows his stuff without question - had Zapco given him an open cheque book would the new Z amps been better - certainly! 

Captain take some time and go to a hifi store and demo different cable - you will see it isn't snake oil!

No one says you should spend $1000's on cable if your car value is only $2000 but $200 is about right! 

You guys should not be so ignorant and closed minded accept the fact that their are better amps out their and the Z cannot possible sound better than a TRU with a stage 3 conversion! Come now that's just silly talk!


----------



## captainobvious

Elektra said:


> So Van den Hul, Monster, Audio Quest etc.... Are selling snake oil?


In short...yes.

Think about that for a second. How ****ty does a 1 meter cable have to be to make a noticeable effect on the sound? All you need is a good connection, proper shielding/noise rejection and proper inductor size for the voltage being passed for the given length of the cable. Once you get that (easy to do in a $5 cable), you're not gaining any significant improvement in signal quality.
Now if you like the pretty jacket and colors, or prefer different materials and connectors for longevity or aesthetics...sure I can see that. But outside of that, you're just handing over money to the marketing machine.


----------



## darrenforeal

Elektra said:


> You guys should not be so ignorant and closed minded accept the fact that their are better amps out their and the Z cannot possible sound better than a TRU with a stage 3 conversion! Come now that's just silly talk!


Yep but all the experienced people who firsthand heard both setups in my car were deaf, ignorant idiots. You're right everyone else is wrong. You're awesome I suck. Got it.


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> In short...yes.
> 
> Think about that for a second. How ****ty does a 1 meter cable have to be to make a noticeable effect on the sound? All you need is a good connection, proper shielding/noise rejection and proper inductor size for the voltage being passed for the given length of the cable. Once you get that (easy to do in a $5 cable), you're not gaining any significant improvement in signal quality.
> Now if you like the pretty jacket and colors, or prefer different materials and connectors for longevity or aesthetics...sure I can see that. But outside of that, you're just handing over money to the marketing machine.


Hearing is believing... I've done the exercise!


----------



## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> Yep but all the experienced people who firsthand heard both setups in my car were deaf, ignorant idiots. You're right everyone else is wrong. You're awesome I suck. Got it.


Finally!!!


----------



## darrenforeal

Elektra said:


> Hearing is believing... I've done the exercise!


*The same situation occurred when I'm noting my and others experience with the tru and zapco. Yet you won't believe it or even accept it. You are asking others to so the same. That is the definition of hypocricy.*


----------



## captainobvious

Elektra said:


> Hearing is believing... I've done the exercise!











"Ignorance is bliss..."


.


----------



## darrenforeal

Elektra said:


> Finally!!!


You are so transparent it's not even funny. What an absolute joke you are.


----------



## captainobvious

darrenforeal said:


> You are so transparent it's not even funny. What an absolute joke you are.



Post #133 says it all.


----------



## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> Yep but all the experienced people who firsthand heard both setups in my car were deaf, ignorant idiots. You're right everyone else is wrong. You're awesome I suck. Got it.


Finally!!! 

You know unless your doing an AB test one after the other it's almost impossible to remember what the other sounded like - so unless the judges were sitting patiently outside your car while you swopped the amps around - it's unlikely that a judge who heard your car a while back after listening to many cars in between is likely to firstly remember how your car sounded and secondly you have take a few factors into consideration like ear fatigue was your car the first car he heard or the last car? Those factors makes difference! 

So in short no I don't believe the Z was better - you may have tuned your car differently to attain a higher score - other factors to factor in is was it the same judge both times?


----------



## Elektra

Elektra said:


> Finally!!!
> 
> You know unless your doing an AB test one after the other it's almost impossible to remember what the other sounded like - so unless the judges were sitting patiently outside your car while you swopped the amps around - it's unlikely that a judge who heard your car a while back after listening to many cars in between is likely to firstly remember how your car sounded and secondly you have take a few factors into consideration like ear fatigue was your car the first car he heard or the last car? Those factors makes difference!
> 
> So in short no I don't believe the Z was better - you may have tuned your car differently to attain a higher score - other factors to factor in is was it the same judge both times?


Your comparing a super high end highly modified extremely high value amp to an amp that was built by the lowest bidder with the cheapest components - when you say it sounds better I call BS!

When I say hearing is believing with cables - I am referring to triple shielded Teflon coated perfect surface copper with pure silver connectors cold welded to run of the mill radio shack rip cord which Captain says is snake oil - hearing is believing!

You see you have to take it in the context it was said!


----------



## subwoofery

Elektra said:


> Your comparing a super high end highly modified extremely high value amp to an amp that was built by the lowest bidder with the cheapest components - when you say it sounds better I call BS!
> 
> When I say hearing is believing with cables - I am referring to triple shielded Teflon coated perfect surface copper with pure silver connectors cold welded to run of the mill radio shack rip cord which Captain says is snake oil - hearing is believing!
> 
> You see you have to take it in the context it was said!


You now have enough posts to access the classifieds and sell your Zapco amp  

Good job!!!!!
Kelvin


----------



## Richv72

Make sure you price it low or you wont be able to sell it because they have almost no resale value.


----------



## Elektra

subwoofery said:


> You now have enough posts to access the classifieds and sell your Zapco amp
> 
> Good job!!!!!
> Kelvin


? Not selling anything here - but thanks!


----------



## Elektra

Richv72 said:


> Make sure you price it low or you wont be able to sell it because they have almost no resale value.


Ain't that the truth...!


----------



## clix`g35

Guys, Elektra is obviously super human, he can hear such minute nuances that an oscilloscope cant measure, please show more respect.


----------



## reno.sa

I remember on the old Zapco Page, they said that they don't have any online dealers, and that if anyone bought anything online they would not cover the warranty. How come woofersetc has become a authorized dealer now? 

Amplifiers


----------



## Elektra

clix`g35 said:


> Guys, Elektra is obviously super human, he can hear such minute nuances that an oscilloscope cant measure, please show more respect.


Gee whizz thanks g35...!


----------



## Elektra

reno.sa said:


> I remember on the old Zapco Page, they said that they don't have any online dealers, and that if anyone bought anything online they would not cover the warranty. How come woofersetc has become a authorized dealer now?
> 
> Amplifiers


I remember emailing John about this a year ago and he said he was against Wooferetc - I guess things have changed.... 

I wonder what else has changed in the last year...


----------



## captainobvious

reno.sa said:


> I remember on the old Zapco Page, they said that they don't have any online dealers, and that if anyone bought anything online they would not cover the warranty. How come woofersetc has become a authorized dealer now?
> 
> Amplifiers



I remember people used to listen to cassettes and watch VHS as well.


----------



## reno.sa

captainobvious said:


> I remember people used to listen to cassettes and watch VHS as well.


Only reason I brought it up is cause I remember they were pretty adamant about not purchasing zapco products online, they even had a section on there site where they listed sites or company's who are not authorized and should not buy from them. Looks like to me they are looking to mass produce their product to target the masses as I said before. 

Seems like they are following the foot steps of Soundstream and Orion which used to be amazing brands till they were also sold and new owners went the more economical route. Most if not all their products are manufactured in the far east. I personally have not seen any great reviews on their new products when it comes to SQ, nearly all the old school Orion or Soundstream products had great reviews be it professional or user, and unfortunately that's the reality. IMO those products have no longer got soul. A friend of mine that used to be the Orion importer for Cyprus and was a qualified repair technician had stopped importing Orion once it changed ownership and told me that they are nothing like they used to be, and had started importing DLS, Helix and Brax and has not looked back. Really hope Zapco doesn't go that route


----------



## captainobvious

Yeah I can understand that. Look at the JL Audio model though too. As long as you regulate price, limit e-retail and keep it consistent between the online and B&M stores, I think it works well. I don't think Zapco is gearing toward the mass market, less profit vs higher volume type of sales model. As long as they continue to put out quality product at prices people are willing to pay and back it, they can be successful.
JL Audio has been a prime example and probably the best model to follow.


----------



## weshole

As far as buying from Woofers ETC. I don't believe they carry the same 3 year warranty available to the guy who purchases it from any other authorized dealer and had them install it.
And along those lines. If I recall correctly.. The big reason that they did not allow online sales of their products was first to protect the brick and mortar businesses from price gouging and keeping the pricing level. Also to also make sure that the products were being installed correctly by an authorized dealer. Not some back woods fella that has no experience. If you look closely, Woofers Etc. is adhering to strictly controlled pricing and I will guarantee if they waiver from that in any way, their status as an authorized internet dealer will be swiftly revoked and all sales of said product will probably lose warranty.

Online companies are not always such a bad thing especially when there is not a local dealer in your area. As long as they are on the same playing field as the rest of the retailers.

Edit - Only a 1 year warranty when purchased from woofers etc.


----------



## reno.sa

captainobvious said:


> Yeah I can understand that. Look at the JL Audio model though too. As long as you regulate price, limit e-retail and keep it consistent between the online and B&M stores, I think it works well. I don't think Zapco is gearing toward the mass market, less profit vs higher volume type of sales model. As long as they continue to put out quality product at prices people are willing to pay and back it, they can be successful.
> JL Audio has been a prime example and probably the best model to follow.


Only time will tell.


----------



## reno.sa

weshole said:


> As far as buying from Woofers ETC. I don't believe they carry the same 3 year warranty available to the guy who purchases it from any other authorized dealer and had them install it.
> And along those lines. If I recall correctly.. The big reason that they did not allow online sales of their products was first to protect the brick and mortar businesses from price gouging and keeping the pricing level. Also to also make sure that the products were being installed correctly by an authorized dealer. Not some back woods fella that has no experience. If you look closely, Woofers Etc. is adhering to strictly controlled pricing and I will guarantee if they waiver from that in any way, their status as an authorized internet dealer will be swiftly revoked and all sales of said product will probably lose warranty.
> 
> Online companies are not always such a bad thing especially when there is not a local dealer in your area. As long as they are on the same playing field as the rest of the retailers.
> 
> Edit - Only a 1 year warranty when purchased from woofers etc.




Not trying to cause a argument but they have already started discounting the products. 

Z150.4 from $939.99 to $799.99, 
Z150.6 from $1199.99 to $999.99

that could be one of the reasons why they are not holding there value.


----------



## vivmike

^^^ fine with me.


----------



## vivmike

I just read through the last 4 pages.

So, Elektra is pretty much a ****ing idiot? Is that a fair assessment?


----------



## Treesive

Is there some kind of epidemic going around? What is with all the bad language, name calling, etc that has been going on within the forums recently? I don't see a need for it and really get annoyed trying to read through posts and it is just a spewing of degenerate thoughts. Can we get back to being a little more civil? I have been guilty if it as well but it is getting thick.


----------



## weshole

reno.sa said:


> Not trying to cause a argument but they have already started discounting the products.
> 
> Z150.4 from $939.99 to $799.99,
> Z150.6 from $1199.99 to $999.99
> 
> that could be one of the reasons why they are not holding there value.


Those are MSRP and MAP prices. That is just fine.


----------



## Elektra

vivmike said:


> I just read through the last 4 pages.
> 
> So, Elektra is pretty much a ****ing idiot? Is that a fair assessment?


Why because I called BS on the whole TRU thing or that I say cables make a difference or that the amps you listed at the bottom of your handle are a load of rubbish?

You can call me what you like I don't really care - but the only idiot here are the ones who are not open to suggestions and call themselves enthusiasts! 

Dim wit!!


----------



## Elektra

weshole said:


> Those are MSRP and MAP prices. That is just fine.


I know from experience that the whole reason in being an authorize agent is so that a install shop can sell a customer a product and install it - that forms part of the agreement that they have with the manufacturer. Now is if a manufacturer sells to anyone which is now the case at wooferetc this effectively bypasses the shop. 

Selling an amp is not going to keep an install shop in business unless they doing volumes - they make more money in doing installs where more ancillary products can be sold like cables, damping etc..

I can tell you they won't be happy! And IMO the dealers won't punt Zapco anymore as their is no point cos Wooferetc can discount the product to such an extent that it isn't worth it for the guys on the ground!

This will ruin ZAPCO's reputation and liken it other cheap brands on the market!


----------



## Elektra

Elektra said:


> I know from experience that the whole reason in being an authorize agent is so that a install shop can sell a customer a product and install it - that forms part of the agreement that they have with the manufacturer. Now is if a manufacturer sells to anyone which is now the case at wooferetc this effectively bypasses the shop.
> 
> Selling an amp is not going to keep an install shop in business unless they doing volumes - they make more money in doing installs where more ancillary products can be sold like cables, damping etc..
> 
> I can tell you they won't be happy! And IMO the dealers won't punt Zapco anymore as their is no point cos Wooferetc can discount the product to such an extent that it isn't worth it for the guys on the ground!
> 
> This will ruin ZAPCO's reputation and liken it other cheap brands on the market!


Zapco effectively gave its loyal dealers - guys like on this forum who can't and won't say a bad thing about anything to do with Zapco the finger!

As to become a dealer for a company like Zapco you should not be any Joe Soap off the street as your company reputation is in their hands

Do you think for minute that wooferetc give a rats ass about Zapco? They will easily sell a client something else if it's too much effort to sweet talk a potential client

Install shops build relationships with potential buyers which prompts the clients to return this won't happen anymore!


----------



## captainobvious

reno.sa said:


> Not trying to cause a argument but they have already started discounting the products.
> 
> Z150.4 from $939.99 to $799.99,
> Z150.6 from $1199.99 to $999.99
> 
> that could be one of the reasons why they are not holding there value.


I think you'll find the same discounts through the local dealer


----------



## Richv72

Damn we got 90% of the zapco amp owners in this one thread, thats awesome. Maybe the 4 or 5 of you can form a zapco club. maybe get some t-shirts made for the club that say zapco club on them, with racing stripes.


----------



## weshole

Im a proud owner of Zapco products both old and new. Ill admit to being skeptical when hearing they went overseas for manufacturing. But, I took the chance and ordered some new Z series amplifiers, installed them, and compared them back to back to my reference series thay would replace. I was more than pleased with how they performed. So much so that I felt it safe to get rid of my Reference series amps.
Are there better out there? Sure. Are there better out there for the money? Possibly. Is Zapco sound quality worse than before. In my eyes and ears, *I think* not.


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> I think you'll find the same discounts through the local dealer


I can get a Z150.6 for $650 new from the authorized dealer here! But I think he trying to off load them to recover his costs as this amp has been with him for over a year as he only brought in 2 - one for me and one for someone else I know - I gave mine back and swopped it out for 2 EOS amps and the other was just recently sold after being in the market for nearly a year! So the one for sale is most probably the amp I gave back over a year ago!

Good amps they seem to be flying out the shops! Lol!


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> I remember people used to listen to cassettes and watch VHS as well.


The only people in the market that should make use of wooferetc should be the people who really want the product but the product is simply not available in their country!

There are plenty complaints about them online - dealing in dodgy fake products , selling products with serial numbers removed (Johns biggest headache by the way) selling products that are marked available but in reality are not! 

Too much of a risk for me... Better to deal face to face especially in the USA Zapco should be available everywhere!


----------



## captainobvious

Elektra said:


> I know from experience that the whole reason in being an authorize agent is so that a install shop can sell a customer a product and install it - that forms part of the agreement that they have with the manufacturer. Now is if a manufacturer sells to anyone which is now the case at wooferetc this effectively bypasses the shop.
> 
> Selling an amp is not going to keep an install shop in business unless they doing volumes - they make more money in doing installs where more ancillary products can be sold like cables, damping etc..
> 
> I can tell you they won't be happy! And IMO the dealers won't punt Zapco anymore as their is no point cos Wooferetc can discount the product to such an extent that it isn't worth it for the guys on the ground!
> 
> This will ruin ZAPCO's reputation and liken it other cheap brands on the market!





Elektra said:


> Zapco effectively gave its loyal dealers - guys like on this forum who can't and won't say a bad thing about anything to do with Zapco the finger!
> 
> As to become a dealer for a company like Zapco you should not be any Joe Soap off the street as your company reputation is in their hands
> 
> Do you think for minute that wooferetc give a rats ass about Zapco? They will easily sell a client something else if it's too much effort to sweet talk a potential client
> 
> Install shops build relationships with potential buyers which prompts the clients to return this won't happen anymore!


Please see below...



weshole said:


> Those are MSRP and MAP prices. That is just fine.





Elektra said:


> I can get a Z150.6 for $650 new from the authorized dealer here! But I think he trying to off load them to recover his costs as this amp has been with him for over a year as he only brought in 2 - one for me and one for someone else I know - I gave mine back and swopped it out for 2 EOS amps and the other was just recently sold after being in the market for nearly a year! So the one for sale is most probably the amp I gave back over a year ago!
> 
> Good amps they seem to be flying out the shops! Lol!



I would be willing to bet he is losing money at that price. And if it's a used amplifier, well then that can make for a tougher sale too.

What other high level brands does your dealer carry?






Elektra said:


> Too much of a risk for me... Better to deal face to face especially in the USA Zapco should be available everywhere!


Believe it or not, Zapco is actually more rare than common here in the states. It's a higher dollar brand and most shops don't carry it. Some of the higher end shops do but dealers pick and choose as it's expensive to carry many brands. In fact, most of the dollars are made from lower end brands in volume and install so even around these parts where Zapco is likely much better known than in South Africa, you still end up with dealers who can't sell them in quantity. It's not an issue with the quality or performance of the product, it's based on the demographics of their customers and shop locations.


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> Please see below...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would be willing to bet he is losing money at that price. And if it's a used amplifier, well then that can make for a tougher sale too.
> 
> What other high level brands does your dealer carry?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not, Zapco is actually more rare than common here in the states. It's a higher dollar brand and most shops don't carry it. Some of the higher end shops do but dealers pick and choose as it's expensive to carry many brands. In fact, most of the dollars are made from lower end brands in volume and install so even around these parts where Zapco is likely much better known than in South Africa, you still end up with dealers who can't sell them in quantity. It's not an issue with the quality or performance of the product, it's based on the demographics of their customers and shop locations.



Unfortunately in South Africa Zapco was very expensive I mean a C2K 4.0 would have set us back $3000!! So the brand was made iconic in a way cos it was so expensive it was like owning a unicorn! If you told someone you own a Zapco they immediately thought you were loaded!

It was almost disappointing to see that you could get that very same amp for $400 on eBay! 

I must say the Brax pricing was more in line with overseas pricing so I can't complain too much about that!

Unfortunately the new agents for Zapco is a complete douche bag as he distributed his own line of products which he got made in China - that's how I ended up with the 2 EOS amps as the factory making those amps for him also manufactured the EOS amps amongst others like the Ground Zero Reference Amps - coincidence would have it that the EOS 4 channel board is remarkably similar in design and components to the GZ reference 4

Any way he was handed Zapco and brought in some products - and this is where the loyalist will cry foul - I installed the Z150.6 at his warehouse with his help - he even helped with initial tuning and I think you could sense a bit a disbelief in what he heard. His partner initially listened to the DC360.4 that I had running at the time and sat in my car for about 20min then changed over to the Z amp and you could see his reactions to one track where the crowd started to scream in the recording and he actually cringed as it was ear piercing! 

He subsequently left that company and started his own company and at the last SQ comp I bumped into him and actually mentioned how bad my car sounded with the Z and commented on how good the DC setup sounded 

I demo'd my car with the EOS and immediately asked if I wanted to distribute the product! In fact everybody who listened to my car was very surprised at how good it sounded! 

The dealer might just be covering his costs at $650 the amp is sold as new as it never was mounted in my car and the fact I gave it back 2 days later!

By the way I agree that the lower priced stuff sells in boat loads - I remember over hearing this guy on the phone talking about his product and that he would not spend $10 more to manufacture an amp even if it had better internals - his brand was aimed a very entry level! 

That folks is the whole story!


----------



## BigRed

I just confirmed Zapco fixes anything but the 220 series because of parts sorry about your luck richv


----------



## rton20s

My only comment is that I find it ironic that the guy who completely disregards one person's subjective opinion in one breath will hold his own subjective opinion up as gospel in the next. 

Elektra, you do realize that the fact that your did not do a blind A/B comparison of your RCA cables makes your comparison just as "invalid" as the ones you dicredit, right? 

(For reference, I have no horse in the race and own no Zapco products. I did find the thread an interesting read though.)


----------



## Elektra

rton20s said:


> My only comment is that I find it ironic that the guy who completely disregards one person's subjective opinion in one breath will hold his own subjective opinion up as gospel in the next.
> 
> Elektra, you do realize that the fact that your did not do a blind A/B comparison of your RCA cables makes your comparison just as "invalid" as the ones you dicredit, right?
> 
> (For reference, I have no horse in the race and own no Zapco products. I did find the thread an interesting read though.)


Dude swopping RCAs took less than 2min it was as near as blind AB test as your going to get!

If the soundstage suddenly changed and the female voices became more real and bottom end bass improved - what part of this test needed to be a blind test?


----------



## darrenforeal

rton20s said:


> My only comment is that I find it ironic that the guy who completely disregards one person's subjective opinion in one breath will hold his own subjective opinion up as gospel in the next.


That sums it up right there.


----------



## rton20s

Elektra said:


> Dude swopping RCAs took less than 2min it was as near as blind AB test as your going to get!


No. It isn't. And if you can not comprehend that, there truly is no helping you.


----------



## BigRed

2 minutes is 1:59 too long to do an a/b on anything. you're evaluation of amps and your opinion are dropping like a cliff eshrektra


----------



## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> That sums it up right there.


Yeah your right at least I am not saying something along the lines of $7000 amp sounds the same if not worse than a $1000 amp - 

I am at least saying a more logical thing like a $100 rca sounds better than a $10 RCA - Which statement sounds more likely? 

Like saying your KIA is a better car to a AMG merc! 

Cos that's exactly what you have just said in a sense of comparisons!

That my friend sums it up about right


----------



## Elektra

BigRed said:


> 2 minutes is 1:59 too long to do an a/b on anything. you're evaluation of amps and your opinion are dropping like a cliff eshrektra


Lol ... So you can tell the difference in tonality, soundstage, midrange, bass depth, separation all in 1 sec? 

That's either hillbilly logic or your gifted! 

I somehow doubt it's the latter...


----------



## darrenforeal

Elektra said:


> Yeah your right at least I am not saying something along the lines of $7000 amp sounds the same if not worse than a $1000 amp -
> 
> I am at least saying a more logical thing like a $100 rca sounds better than a $10 RCA - Which statement sounds more likely?
> 
> Like saying your KIA is a better car to a AMG merc!
> 
> Cos that's exactly what you have just said in a sense of comparisons!
> 
> That my friend sums it up about right


Now youre saying your logic is based on you believing more expensive has to be better. This shows your lack of understanding of the law of diminishing returns. Let alone basic economics, marketing, sociology and psycology in general.


----------



## Elektra

rton20s said:


> No. It isn't. And if you can not comprehend that, there truly is no helping you.


If you should say so... You should think about helping your mates here I think they need all the help they can get!


----------



## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> Now youre saying your logic is based on you believing more expensive has to be better. This shows your lack of understanding of the law of diminishing returns. Let alone basic economics, marketing, sociology and psycology in general.


Dude their is a guy here that is offering some help - I suggest you two get together to help each other out....

Why don't you buy an amp that has all the worst rated caps cheapest components and be happy with it as things like Mundorf and Elna caps are completely wasted on you....

Hang on here ... Stop the bus! Your already did! Congrats!! Pat yourself on the back as no one else will!

I still can't believe what you did! 

Your statement on the TRU amp sounds so far fetched I am having trouble believing that you had one in the first place - you didn't even get the retail price right you said $3500 those amps retail for $7000 if I had an amp like that I would sure as hell remember the ticket price even if I bought it 2nd hand for less it's still a $7000 amp!


----------



## rton20s

BigRed said:


> 2 minutes is 1:59 too long to do an a/b on anything. you're evaluation of amps and your opinion are dropping like a cliff eshrektra


Not to mention that fact that he knew exactly which cables were being used and when. Sort of completely missed the "blind" part of the comparison. 

Simply put, it is very likely your $100 cable sounded better because you wanted it to sound better. I'm glad you're happy with your purchase.


----------



## darrenforeal

Elektra said:


> Dude their is a guy here that is offering some help - I suggest you two get together to help each other out....
> 
> Why don't you buy an amp that has all the worst rated caps cheapest components and be happy with it as things like Mundorf and Elna caps are completely wasted on you....
> 
> Hang on here ... Stop the bus! Your already did! Congrats!! Pat yourself on the back as no one else will!
> 
> I still can't believe what you did!
> 
> Your statement on the TRU amp sounds so far fetched I am having trouble believing that you had one in the first place - you didn't even get the retail price right you said $3500 those amps retail for $7000 if I had an amp like that I would sure as hell remember the ticket price even if I bought it 2nd hand for less it's still a $7000 amp!


Dude. Put a fork in yourself. You're done. 

Your responses continue to show your lack of insight toward your own faulty thinking patterns. Most recently it again shows your lack of understanding of concepts mentioned; not to mention the sub par reading comprehension. And you've just put the cherry on top with manufacturing information about the specifics about a situation you know nothing of. You've clearly not heard the phrase, " when you've dug yourself into a hole, stop digging."


----------



## BigRed

Here...let me bury you with this...I just found out Electra emails Zapco 3 times a month on average asking about the best components for amps etc...AND owns Zapco's...WTF!! Really?? You are beyond help my friend! LMAO!!

These are the RCA's I use. They were $2.49 at Fry's LOL!! They make my system sound mah-va-lis!!


----------



## jonesy22645

damn big red! lol


----------



## vivmike

Elektra said:


> Dim wit!!


Your mama. :laugh:


----------



## Richv72

Not even ofc cables?. Thats a waste of time even installing them. Well at least they are made in china like the rest of your system.


----------



## darrenforeal

Richv72 said:


> Not even ofc cables?. Thats a waste of time even installing them. Well at least they are made in china like the rest of your system.


I believe that same system took 1st in its class with very respectable score at CA MECA state finals. And I think was .2 of a point less than the car which won the iasca world championship in its class 2 weeks later in AL. Not that these facts would cause you to question your beliefs on equipment even a slight bit, right?


----------



## BigRed

Richv72 said:


> Not even ofc cables?. Thats a waste of time even installing them. Well at least they are made in china like the rest of your system.


They were out of the $100 monster cable ones that for the record are made in China too


----------



## subwoofery

Elektra said:


> Yeah your right at least I am not saying something along the lines of $7000 amp sounds the same if not worse than a $1000 amp -
> 
> I am at least saying a more logical thing like a $100 rca sounds better than a $10 RCA - Which statement sounds more likely?
> 
> Like saying your KIA is a better car to a AMG merc!
> 
> Cos that's exactly what you have just said in a sense of comparisons!
> 
> That my friend sums it up about right


If I were to put a high price to a cheap cable ($2 Worth) and name it with a fancy name brand - you would still think that my $500 sounds better than the $100 you heard. 

That's what we've been trying to tell you the whole time - a blind test is really that: a BLIND test where you don't know when your friend switches the cable for you 
^ reason why BigRed told you that switching between cables was 1:59 too long... 

There's 1 vid on youtube that explains how humains perceive things. 
One guy installed a switch that made a small click so that people could hear it when they are doing the blind test with the *exact *same amp - yet people heard huge differences from 1 click to another. 

Think about it 
Kelvin


----------



## Richv72

BigRed said:


> They were out of the $100 monster cable ones that for the record are made in China too



I was just kidding, you got a nice system.


----------



## papasin

darrenforeal said:


> I believe that same system took 1st in its class with very respectable score at CA MECA state finals. And I think was .2 of a point less than the car which won the iasca world championship in its class 2 weeks later in AL. Not that these facts would cause you to question your beliefs on equipment even a slight bit, right?


Was there. BigRed's cheapy RCA cabled truck with these "suspect" Zapco amps took 1st place for MECA state finals Master class (highest class in MECA). Care to also guess who won last year? Just happened to slap together the truck just a week before the show, but was less than .125 points averaged over 3 judges for overall SQ best of show for the whole comp. And for that car that edged BigRed's truck and ended up with the IASCA Pro world championship, you forgot to mention what amps it runs Darren . Also forgot to mention that the car that took highest score at AL for IASCA what amps that car runs (hint, it's a TL with 6 amps...care to guess?).

I have no dog in the fight about the Z amps. Super happy with my Mosconis. But all this focus on these specific amps and unicorn laced cables, makes me wonder why people don't ask the other question, other than these amps, what makes these cars so competitive in the SQ lanes? Hmmm, I wonder if tuning and install had anything to do with it? Just sayin


----------



## darrenforeal

You're absolutely right Richard. But yeah tune and install in car audio almost trump everything.


----------



## captainobvious

papasin said:


> Was there. BigRed's cheapy RCA cabled truck with these "suspect" Zapco amps took 1st place for MECA state finals Master class (highest class in MECA). Care to also guess who won last year? Just happened to slap together the truck just a week before the show, but was less than .125 points averaged over 3 judges for overall SQ best of show for the whole comp. And for that car that edged BigRed's truck and ended up with the IASCA Pro world championship, you forgot to mention what amps it runs Darren . Also forgot to mention that the car that took highest score at AL for IASCA what amps that car runs (hint, it's a TL with 6 amps...care to guess?).
> 
> I have no dog in the fight about the Z amps. Super happy with my Mosconis. But all this focus on these specific amps and unicorn laced cables, makes me wonder why people don't ask the other question, other than these amps, what makes these cars so competitive in the SQ lanes? Hmmm, I wonder if tuning and install had anything to do with it? Just sayin



I'm not on the same level as mr Big Red there, but the Z's did quite well for me at the PA state finals for MECA/IASCA as well 

The results don't lie. They do exactly what they were designed to and what I bought them for- to sound terrific and provide tons of clean power.


----------



## papasin

captainobvious said:


> I'm not on the same level as mr Big Red there, but the Z's did quite well for me at the PA state finals for MECA/IASCA as well
> 
> The results don't lie. They do exactly what they were designed to and what I bought them for- to sound terrific and provide tons of clean power.


Awesome job Steve. I also give the credit to your install and those killer mid basses you use.


----------



## Elektra

BigRed said:


> Here...let me bury you with this...I just found out Electra emails Zapco 3 times a month on average asking about the best components for amps etc...AND owns Zapco's...WTF!! Really?? You are beyond help my friend! LMAO!!
> 
> These are the RCA's I use. They were $2.49 at Fry's LOL!! They make my system sound mah-va-lis!!


Dude no one said you should spend 1000$ on cable but their is a regarded statement in the HIFi world that that's that you should spend 10% of the total value on cable 

Dude do you think for a second that if I had a $2000 system I would use that junk? Kindof like putting retreads on your F1 car and expect it to take pole position!

Do you even conceive the amount of research that these reputable companies spend in testing and manufacturing of the cables and if it's as you say it it is then the world world have told them to shut down their doors as they are selling BS!

I am not going to comment on how your comps work that side but here the best car isn't always the best sounding car - we get point for soundstage, height install etc... You could have the best sounding car by far but come last! 

But I am glad you used unsheilded rip cord in a supposedly high end system just to save a buck! 

I mean who needs triple shielded pure copper with solid silver plugs that's just wasteful silly me... The copper plated stuff barely shielded stuff is identical! Someone should have told AQ..,


----------



## darrenforeal

Elektra said:


> if it's as you say it it is then the world world have told them to shut down their doors as they are selling BS!


people have. A LOT. Here _for starters_:

Pear Cables Earns Honors in Yahoo's Worst Tech Products of 2007 | Audioholics

Pear Cable Redux: How to Combat Scam with Science | Audioholics

and

$7,250 Speaker Cables Turn You Into a Dancin' Fool

James Randi Offers $1 Million If Audiophiles Can Prove $7250 Speaker Cables Are Better



Like I said, put a fork in yourself. You're done.


----------



## Richv72

Those tests are bs though, it isnt just guess the right one, they want you to jump through hoops, plus the tests are rigged.


----------



## BigRed

I would use coat hangers if I could but they are just so hard to get the bends right 

Monster Cables face off against Coat Hangers | Geeks are Sexy Technology News


----------



## Richv72

75db test... I could use 2 cans and a string and you wouldnt be able to tell the difference.


----------



## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> Dude. Put a fork in yourself. You're done.
> 
> Your responses continue to show your lack of insight toward your own faulty thinking patterns. Most recently it again shows your lack of understanding of concepts mentioned; not to mention the sub par reading comprehension. And you've just put the cherry on top with manufacturing information about the specifics about a situation you know nothing of. You've clearly not heard the phrase, " when you've dug yourself into a hole, stop digging."


Dude your awesome!

Still want to hear about the TRU amp..,


----------



## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> people have. A LOT. Here _for starters_:
> 
> Pear Cables Earns Honors in Yahoo's Worst Tech Products of 2007 | Audioholics
> 
> Pear Cable Redux: How to Combat Scam with Science | Audioholics
> 
> and
> 
> $7,250 Speaker Cables Turn You Into a Dancin' Fool
> 
> James Randi Offers $1 Million If Audiophiles Can Prove $7250 Speaker Cables Are Better
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, put a fork in yourself. You're done.


Love the fork... Lol!

What about Richard Clark's $10000 amp challenge then? Can you hear the difference between 2 amps? 

That's right you can as you stated the whole TRU fable ... So is Richard Clark a liar? 

Personally I can and by the sounds of things a lot of you can as well so why offer a ridiculous challenge? 

For every review claiming snake oil their are 10 reviews saying otherwise...


----------



## Elektra

BigRed said:


> I would use coat hangers if I could but they are just so hard to get the bends right
> 
> Monster Cables face off against Coat Hangers | Geeks are Sexy Technology News


Dude how on earth would you know that " on average I would email Zapco 3 times a month on upgrades!" 

To set the record straight - I emailed John maybe twice on this topic and it was twice because the first time I didn't get an response from him. He later did respond saying that guys would use different boards in their amps at comps - he was referring to the Studio 500 and Z300 apparently they shared the same board - that was the context of the discussion as I was looking to maybe purchase a Studio 500 on eBay and I was looking to find out some info on them 

Now... I can think of only 2 reasons you may know this ...,

A) you a Zapco employee in some way that has access to their emails - this would make Everything you said unbelievable and totally biased
B) your big mates with John - this would make everything you said unbelievable and totally biased as who would say something bad about a mate?

This also leads me to think that your gear isn't exactly standard - your such big mates / employed with Zapco you could have gotten modded amps by say Matt Roberts - another big mate of Zapco who has already started on mods for the Z series

Who's to say? 

I believe the expression goes "your mama"!


----------



## Elektra

BigRed said:


> I would use coat hangers if I could but they are just so hard to get the bends right
> 
> Monster Cables face off against Coat Hangers | Geeks are Sexy Technology News


You have gotten me intrigued here...

What exactly are you running in your truck? 

Hangers are just a PITA to install why don't you just rip off your shoe laces instead it will also work out cheaper and faster to install...

If you use those really thick ones it may even sound better than AQ RCA 

That reminds me to inform AQ to close their doors and lay off 100's of people as hangers and shoe laces do the same job... 

I think you just saved the world!


----------



## Richv72

I doubt zapco can mod amps in this country anymore, Its probably just a boxing up facility or someones house. I mean what do you need a shop for if you dont build anything?. Probably just a P.O. BOx office or a storage locker or something.


----------



## Elektra

Richv72 said:


> I doubt zapco can mod amps in this country anymore, Its probably just a boxing up facility or someones house. I mean what do you need a shop for if you dont build anything?. Probably just a P.O. BOx office or a storage locker or something.


Zapco don't do it... But I did read an email from Matt Roberts sent to a friend of mine stating that he has already modded them with better results.


----------



## Coppertone

BigRed said:


> I would use coat hangers if I could but they are just so hard to get the bends right
> 
> Monster Cables face off against Coat Hangers | Geeks are Sexy Technology News


Wow, not that I am a firm believer in advertised magical high end rca's, but to be honest I always convince myself that for them if I'm paying more I am getting more right? Those are the times when I know my meds aren't working and it's time for lockdown again lol.


----------



## Elektra

Coppertone said:


> Wow, not that I am a firm believer in advertised magical high end rca's, but to be honest I always convince myself that for them if I'm paying more I am getting more right? Those are the times when I know my meds aren't working and it's time for lockdown again lol.


Monster Cable was a very reputable cable company in the 90's you would never find their products in supermarkets and flea markets as you do now. They don't even sell high end RCA's anymore... 

A more dedicated cable company like AudioQuest will see a better product and will not be available in supermarkets and flea markets 

People need to realize that just because they bought a expensive cable it does not always yield the perceived results your head was hoping for. 

If you run a entry level system save $500 -$1000 I would say any rca cable is good enough as long as it's shielded and OFC with proper plugs at each end as your systems outright potential for detail does not exceed the cables ability to extract the information given

On the other hand if you run say a 3000$ system a basic cable as explained above is not going to extract your systems full potential for out right detail - it goes without saying that you should match your system to the cable - 10% spend on your audio cable should be sufficient

There will come a time when you will struggle to hear a difference after a certain value at that point diminished returns starts to apply.

But a simple demo at a reputable hifi store can demo different grades of cable for you and you can experience first hand if they are selling you snake oil or not!


----------



## captainobvious

Elektra said:


> Dude no one said you should spend 1000$ on cable but their is a regarded statement in the HIFi world that that's that you should spend 10% of the total value on cable


That's what you call the 'blind leading the blind'.




Elektra said:


> Dude do you think for a second that if I had a $2000 system I would use that junk? Kindof like putting retreads on your F1 car and expect it to take pole position!


No, actually its not even close to that comparison. A retread vs a fresh tire is a vast difference and easily measureable. Like I said before, you can dip and wrap those cables in any SQ sauce you want, if you have a properly shielded cable with the correct inductor size for the voltage being passed and length of the cable provided and the signal arrives there clean, everything else is moot from a signal standpoint.



Elektra said:


> Do you even conceive the amount of *MARKETING* research that these _"reputable"_ companies spend on cables and if it's as you say it it is then the world world have told them to shut down their doors as they are selling BS!


^^There, I fixed it for ya.



Elektra said:


> I am not going to comment on how your comps work that side but here the best car isn't always the best sounding car - we get point for soundstage, height install etc... You could have the best sounding car by far but come last!


Well then you should get along just fine with the "audiophiles" over there as you'll share a common ground of broken logic. An SQ competition where the best sounding cars come in last- awesome!



Elektra said:


> But I am glad you used unsheilded rip cord in a supposedly high end system just to save a buck!
> 
> *I mean who needs triple shielded pure copper with solid silver plugs* that's just wasteful silly me... The copper plated stuff barely shielded stuff is identical! Someone should have told AQ..,


You don't. 
BTW, well shielded cable is extremely cheap. If you want to pay 20-40 times the cost because it's been prettied up with makeup and a push-up bra, go for it.


----------



## captainobvious

papasin said:


> Awesome job Steve. I also give the credit to your install and those killer mid basses you use.


Thanks Richard


:laugh: Yeah, they're ok


----------



## Klifton Keplinger

Never wrestle with a pig. 

You get dirty and the pig likes it.


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> That's what you call the 'blind leading the blind'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually its not even close to that comparison. A retread vs a fresh tire is a vast difference and easily measureable. Like I said before, you can dip and wrap those cables in any SQ sauce you want, if you have a properly shielded cable with the correct inductor size for the voltage being passed and length of the cable provided and the signal arrives there clean, everything else is moot from a signal standpoint.
> 
> 
> 
> ^^There, I fixed it for ya.
> 
> 
> Well then you should get along just fine with the "audiophiles" over there as you'll share a common ground of broken logic. An SQ competition where the best sounding cars come in last- awesome!
> 
> 
> 
> You don't.
> BTW, well shielded cable is extremely cheap. If you want to pay 20-40 times the cost because it's been prettied up with makeup and a push-up bra, go for it.



Ok guys... This topic is going nowhere... I think agree to disagree!

Let's leave it I'll buy what I hear is best and you guys buy the lamp chord that way we are all happy!

Cool?


----------



## Elektra

captainobvious said:


> That's what you call the 'blind leading the blind'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, actually its not even close to that comparison. A retread vs a fresh tire is a vast difference and easily measureable. Like I said before, you can dip and wrap those cables in any SQ sauce you want, if you have a properly shielded cable with the correct inductor size for the voltage being passed and length of the cable provided and the signal arrives there clean, everything else is moot from a signal standpoint.
> 
> 
> 
> ^^There, I fixed it for ya.
> 
> 
> Well then you should get along just fine with the "audiophiles" over there as you'll share a common ground of broken logic. An SQ competition where the best sounding cars come in last- awesome!
> 
> 
> 
> You don't.
> BTW, well shielded cable is extremely cheap. If you want to pay 20-40 times the cost because it's been prettied up with makeup and a push-up bra, go for it.


Captain... Over here our comps are judged in 2 parts - technical accuracy I.e. Soundstage etc and install the actual component for listening pleasure and tonality only counts 50 points considering that the winner may have 500 points 

So in short you could get 50/50 for listening pleasure and tonality which suggests that you have the best sounding car but only score 400 points in total which could make you end up last! If the field was strong...


----------



## pjc

I've always heard "don't argue with an idiot... They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." 




Klifton Keplinger said:


> Never wrestle with a pig.
> 
> You get dirty and the pig likes it.


----------



## Golden Ear

Elektra said:


> Captain... Over here our comps are judged in 2 parts - technical accuracy I.e. Soundstage etc and install the actual component for listening pleasure and tonality only counts 50 points considering that the winner may have 500 points
> 
> So in short you could get 50/50 for listening pleasure and tonality which suggests that you have the best sounding car but only score 400 points in total which could make you end up last! If the field was strong...


This follows the same logic as the expensive cables are better sounding than the cheap ones. Better looking installs beat better sounding cars in a SOUND QUALITY competition.


----------



## jonesy22645

I don't think Matt was modding anything anymore due to his hectic schedule. If he is modding Z series I know it will be the bomb. He put is elbow in my MS-8 and its really good.


----------



## Golden Ear

Elektra said:


> Dude no one said you should spend 1000$ on cable but their is a regarded statement in the HIFi world that that's that you should spend 10% of the total value on cable


Who do you think came up with this piece of marketing genius, audiophiles? I bet it was a company that sells expensive cables, and some people ate it up.


----------



## BigRed

Elektra said:


> Dude how on earth would you know that " on average I would email Zapco 3 times a month on upgrades!"
> 
> To set the record straight - I emailed John maybe twice on this topic and it was twice because the first time I didn't get an response from him. He later did respond saying that guys would use different boards in their amps at comps - he was referring to the Studio 500 and Z300 apparently they shared the same board - that was the context of the discussion as I was looking to maybe purchase a Studio 500 on eBay and I was looking to find out some info on them
> 
> Now... I can think of only 2 reasons you may know this ...,
> 
> A) you a Zapco employee in some way that has access to their emails - this would make Everything you said unbelievable and totally biased
> B) your big mates with John - this would make everything you said unbelievable and totally biased as who would say something bad about a mate?
> 
> This also leads me to think that your gear isn't exactly standard - your such big mates / employed with Zapco you could have gotten modded amps by say Matt Roberts - another big mate of Zapco who has already started on mods for the Z series
> 
> Who's to say?
> 
> *I believe the expression goes "your mama"!*


There is nothing wrong with attacking me personally because you and I don't agree with an amp or how it performs etc. BUT when you bring my Mother into it, who happened to die 1.5 years ago suddenly, that's when I have to say **** YOU!! I will no longer argue with such a piece of **** like you.


----------



## darrenforeal

Elektra said:


> Ok guys... This topic is going nowhere... I think agree to disagree!
> 
> Let's leave it I'll buy what I hear is best and you guys buy the lamp chord that way we are all happy!
> 
> Cool?


Sure. Yet I doubt you'll be able to contain yourself.


----------



## rton20s

Elektra said:


> Monster Cable was a very reputable cable company in the 90's...


If nothing else in this thread disqualified you from legitimate contributions to the topic, this did.


----------



## subwoofery

Elektra said:


> Ok guys... This topic is going nowhere... I think agree to disagree!
> 
> Let's leave it I'll buy what I hear is best and you guys buy the lamp chord that way we are all happy!
> 
> Cool?


Before you leave, read post $200 then watch this 




^ the above workshop might open your mind a bit

Kelvin


----------



## Elektra

Golden Ear said:


> This follows the same logic as the expensive cables are better sounding than the cheap ones. Better looking installs beat better sounding cars in a SOUND QUALITY competition.


We don't follow the IASCA rules we follow the EMMA rules - I believe their is a bit of a difference... 

It kind of makes sense - your install is just as important as setup!


----------



## Elektra

rton20s said:


> If nothing else in this thread disqualified you from legitimate contributions to the topic, this did.


Well let's qualify that statement - am I right or wrong? Monster sold cable for over a $1000 once upon a time - do they still do that? 

Not what I remember going through their website - they do a lot of iPod stuff which seems to be their main focus...

If your going to argue at least do us a favour and explain yourself!


----------



## Elektra

darrenforeal said:


> Sure. Yet I doubt you'll be able to contain yourself.


Scouts honor...


----------



## Elektra

jonesy22645 said:


> I don't think Matt was modding anything anymore due to his hectic schedule. If he is modding Z series I know it will be the bomb. He put is elbow in my MS-8 and its really good.


Yes I do believe he knows his stuff!! From what I hear..


----------



## Elektra

Golden Ear said:


> Who do you think came up with this piece of marketing genius, audiophiles? I bet it was a company that sells expensive cables, and some people ate it up.


Your a audiophiles worst nightmare!!!


----------



## rton20s

Elektra said:


> Well let's qualify that statement - am I right or wrong? Monster sold cable for over a $1000 once upon a time - do they still do that?
> 
> Not what I remember going through their website - they do a lot of iPod stuff which seems to be their main focus...
> 
> If your going to argue at least do us a favour and explain yourself!


Simply put, Monster is a marketing company who seeks out product categories with high margins and a target demographic susceptible to their marketing techniques. 

They certainly are not alone in this description, especially in the market we are discussing.


----------



## Elektra

BigRed said:


> There is nothing wrong with attacking me personally because you and I don't agree with an amp or how it performs etc. BUT when you bring my Mother into it, who happened to die 1.5 years ago suddenly, that's when I have to say **** YOU!! I will no longer argue with such a piece of **** like you.


Firstly I am sorry for your loss... Nobody should lose a loved one especially a parent!

Secondly I believe "your mama" is an well known expression around the world - and especially is the USA when is very commonly used! 

It does not mean literally your "mama" but more a figure of speech or expression like when a black guy calls another black guy ****** it's not meant in a derogatory fashion or when a friend calls another friend a mother ****er - I don't think he actually means he had intercourse with someone's mother!

Anyway I don't recall you having a complaint about "your mama" when someone else uses it on another person as was the case with a fellow forum member directed at me...

So as much as I do sympathize with your loss - you should really not have double standards...

So in short **** you too! If you can't take it don't dish it! Or allow others who clearly respect you to do the same if you feel so strongly about the expression you should have drawn the line!

But you didn't - did you?


----------



## Elektra

rton20s said:


> Simply put, Monster is a marketing company who seeks out product categories with high margins and a target demographic susceptible to their marketing techniques.
> 
> They certainly are not alone in this description, especially in the market we are discussing.


True.. But isn't that the strategy of most companies - 1200$ for a Z150.6 do you think Zapco are not making a killing?

I give you an example - I mentioned in one of my posts about the Zapco dealer who has his own line of products made in China..

He told me that he visited a factory in china that was in a really bad part of china in the part he went to a factory that manufactured amps etc for some very high end companies after that visit he mistakenly received an invoice from them for Ground Zero Reference amps - you wanna know what each unit costs!!!

$300!! Those amps retail for over $2000 so yeah no difference to Monster's business strategy!!


----------



## jonesy22645

Huh? What? Just sincerely apologize for the comment. This is a prime example of why a person should not make such comments because you don't know how it will affect the person..now drawing a comparison to "blacks" using the word ****** is foolish. SMH!


----------



## Elektra

jonesy22645 said:


> Huh? What? Just sincerely apologize for the comment. This is a prime example of why a person should not make such comments because you don't know how it will affect the person..now drawing a comparison to "blacks" using the word ****** is foolish. SMH!


All I can say is OMG!!!! 

Do you even know the term expression? I suggest you stop looking for trouble that isn't there to be found! 

I actually did apologize!


----------



## jonesy22645

you got me!! i don't know the expression. As a black man that lives in the south, that has lived in the inner city NYC I have not idea about that term. Awesome apology, a man takes offense to what you say because he lost his mom. Then you follow it up with a **** you. Classy.


----------



## jonesy22645

im going to remove myself from the discussion. sorry for saying anything.


----------



## Elektra

jonesy22645 said:


> you got me!! i don't know the expression. As a black man that lives in the south, that has lived in the inner city NYC I have not idea about that term. Awesome apology, a man takes offense to what you say because he lost his mom. Then you follow it up with a **** you. Classy.


So let me see if this is about right?

We discuss the merits of a well known product and their ability to produce an amp that is befitting the name and reputation called Zapco - which I find it very hard to believe that absolutely NO ONE can say anything bad about it - not even the fact it doesn't even come with a manual! Or that it's not made in the USA which Americans are famous for being so patriotic! 

To discussing cable - to discussing death - to discussing racial insecurities!

Exactly what are we going to discuss next ... The after life , religion? 

This is such a biased uniformative forum where the only fun one gets is ragging everyone! But it would seem that some don't like to be ragged on! But the same some like to dish it out at the same time! 

This is clearly a Forum to boost ZAPCO's image as to the fact that everyone jerks off over their amps - no one on this forum can honestly call themselves enthusiasts or audiophiles as they won't explore other products that might enhance there quest for audio nirvana! Like my mama once said don't put all your eggs in one basket! 

You guys clearly do! 

Their are few things one should consider everyone claims that Zapco doesn't look after them but for some Zapco does - I have read such outlandish comments that range from Z's being better than super billet 6 TRU amps to my emails being public knowledge - this all smacks of a PR exercise designed to fool unsuspecting purchasers

Fact remains that the only review done by an international reviewer chose an amp that cost 7 times less over a Z amp - I have asked many times to see the reviews that support this forums claims - but alas I have not seen them - every time I make an accusation for instance - "I don't believe you owned a TRU amp" everything else in that quote was torn apart EXCEPT the biggest statement! I also made an accusation of someone being a Zapco employee as he has emails I sent to Zapco - that accusation wasn't dealt with only "your mama" as if he was the only one who suffered a loss - what about my family? But I didn't make a big deal about it!

Fact remains that I don't know anyone who shares this forums claims... 

I own some of the best equipment on the market today - and if find something better I have no issues to off load what I have for a better product - that my friend is an enthusiast and an audiophile! 

Unlike you guys my equipment is worth something and as of yet I haven't really lost money on my equipment - your Z amps are losing value before you even buy them! New Z amps are selling for under $300 on eBay! 20 year old Zapco amps are selling for higher!

Can't wait for Auto HiFi to review these amps ... When they do that will be the end of Zapco! As they are about the most reputable reviewers and when people see the ratings compared to the old amps - this forum will not be able to argue with anything! Except call it snake oil! 

I'll be sure to post the review on this forum...


----------



## Golden Ear

Elektra said:


> Your a audiophiles worst nightmare!!!


Fine by me


----------



## WestCo

subwoofery said:


> Before you leave, read post $200 then watch this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ the above workshop might open your mind a bit
> 
> Kelvin


Great video, even better quote in your signature.

I think one real way to rectify some of the placebo effects is to remove expectations from testing and keeping an open mind. Blind is better of course...

For the z-series amps I felt they were less flat sounding when the speaker impedance was higher 6ohms vs 4ohms. (considerably so)

I'll have to be more careful when I do A/B tests with respect to volume levels.


----------



## darrenforeal

Elektra said:


> Scouts honor...





Elektra said:


> So let me see if this is about right?
> 
> We discuss the merits of a well known product and their ability to produce an amp that is befitting the name and reputation called Zapco - which I find it very hard to believe that absolutely NO ONE can say anything bad about it - not even the fact it doesn't even come with a manual! Or that it's not made in the USA which Americans are famous for being so patriotic!
> 
> To discussing cable - to discussing death - to discussing racial insecurities!
> 
> Exactly what are we going to discuss next ... The after life , religion?
> 
> This is such a biased uniformative forum where the only fun one gets is ragging everyone! But it would seem that some don't like to be ragged on! But the same some like to dish it out at the same time!
> 
> This is clearly a Forum to boost ZAPCO's image as to the fact that everyone jerks off over their amps - no one on this forum can honestly call themselves enthusiasts or audiophiles as they won't explore other products that might enhance there quest for audio nirvana! Like my mama once said don't put all your eggs in one basket!
> 
> You guys clearly do!
> 
> Their are few things one should consider everyone claims that Zapco doesn't look after them but for some Zapco does - I have read such outlandish comments that range from Z's being better than super billet 6 TRU amps to my emails being public knowledge - this all smacks of a PR exercise designed to fool unsuspecting purchasers
> 
> Fact remains that the only review done by an international reviewer chose an amp that cost 7 times less over a Z amp - I have asked many times to see the reviews that support this forums claims - but alas I have not seen them - every time I make an accusation for instance - "I don't believe you owned a TRU amp" everything else in that quote was torn apart EXCEPT the biggest statement! I also made an accusation of someone being a Zapco employee as he has emails I sent to Zapco - that accusation wasn't dealt with only "your mama" as if he was the only one who suffered a loss - what about my family? But I didn't make a big deal about it!
> 
> Fact remains that I don't know anyone who shares this forums claims...
> 
> I own some of the best equipment on the market today - and if find something better I have no issues to off load what I have for a better product - that my friend is an enthusiast and an audiophile!
> 
> Unlike you guys my equipment is worth something and as of yet I haven't really lost money on my equipment - your Z amps are losing value before you even buy them! New Z amps are selling for under $300 on eBay! 20 year old Zapco amps are selling for higher!
> 
> Can't wait for Auto HiFi to review these amps ... When they do that will be the end of Zapco! As they are about the most reputable reviewers and when people see the ratings compared to the old amps - this forum will not be able to argue with anything! Except call it snake oil!
> 
> I'll be sure to post the review on this forum...


In thought you said "scout's honor."Again, you're full of it. Also I don't need to prove crap to you. If you really needed proof that I owned the tru, then you would have looked for the pics of it on a build thread I probably have on here or the for sale add. But not that that would convince you of anything. Idiot. And for the record, I never said the z150.2 was better. I said it sounds as good as the tru I had, has a lower noise floor, and is a hell of a lot cheaper. Why the hell do you think people have such a hard time selling the super billets for over 2k. Because regardless of their retail cost, they aren't worth the $. Again, another concept that your ineptitude to address further demostrates your lack of understanding. I suggest you take some continuing education courses in economics, marketing and psychology. But alas, I expect nothing of you and you will probably sectively read and respond to this post, just like every other time you did so. I'm done. I hope you continue to enjoy displaying your ignorance and lack of understanding of logical thinking. Keep on rolling in the mud and dragging others down into it like the pig you are.

PS
My last gift to appease you...Put this in your pipe and smoke it you pickle smoker.

























































Beautiful huh??? But guess what??? I like these better... So do those who heard both.











Now go sit on a fat one you ass clown.


----------



## [email protected]

I shouldnt comment


----------



## WestCo

[email protected] said:


> I shouldnt comment


Please comment.
Things are how they are. I'll read any review and take it at face value


----------



## Richv72

I used to use speaker box carpet on amp racks, then I got a job. Looks like a 3rd grade art contest, did you win 1st prize?.


----------



## rton20s

Multiple choice time! 

What I have learned in this thread...

A. Zapco Z series have been killing it in SQ comps.
B. Some people are plagued by social issues. 
C. Some people appear to have some sot of mental disability. 
D. Some people are nothing more than trolls. 
E. All of the above.


----------



## Richv72

Provide a link to these supposed "killing it" sq comps.


----------



## WestCo

Richv72 said:


> Provide a link to these supposed "killing it" sq comps.


Back again for links as well.

I mean for sq comps I have seen 

JL Hd's 
Arc Se amps
Mosconi

All pretty solid performers. Not a huge fan of the Jl's personally


----------



## rton20s

I'd say read this thread, and what the people who have posted accomplished with them. It was my take away. (And no, I am not saying that other amps can't perform just as well.) 

This seems to say a bit for them, as well. 

















And of course, this one might look a little familiar...


----------



## captainobvious

Richv72 said:


> Provide a link to these supposed "killing it" sq comps.



Jeebus, did you read the thread at all? 

:laugh:


----------



## papasin

Dustin, Darren, Steve, etc., I believe Klifton hit the nail on the head with his short, but very enlightening post. What the one or two guys on here that you guys have been going back and forth with only accomplished is helping rack up their post counts, and pretty much proved their knowledge and experience. For those of us who are aspiring and wanting to learn and grow in this hobby, well, I for one am checking out because there's nothing here that I am learning from. Continuing down this road, there really isn't much to gain.

I've said it before, I have nothing for or against Zapco, don't run any of their gear. But the awards and accomplishments of the men and women posted above are very well earned, and the gear is part of the equation, but I've already stated my $0.02 on how that impacts the entire equation. Further, the two cups displayed are the highest awards in MECA & IASCA, and anyone berating any of those accomplishments, well, there was a utensil already discussed, and I don't even want to go there...but you would be wise to learn from some of these folks that have made significant achievements. Oh well, can't save the world I suppose.


----------



## papasin

Richv72 said:


> I used to use speaker box carpet on amp racks, then I got a job. Looks like a 3rd grade art contest, did you win 1st prize?.


One last post for me, since one of you is local and content sitting behind your keyboard and calling out folks, come out and showcase your work in person. I'm organizing a gtg next month and since you say you're in NorCal, please come on over. Details here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-gtg-simplicityinsound-december-7-2013-a.html

BigRed might make an appearance if you do. Heck, Darren might even make the drive up. Pretty sure I can get SQ and install judges too if you want to make it interesting and put up your work against theirs, name your format, SQ, install, MECA, IASCA, take your pick...


----------



## palldat

papasin said:


> One last post for me, since one of you is local and content sitting behind your keyboard and calling out folks, come out and showcase your work in person. I'm organizing a gtg next month and since you say you're in NorCal, please come on over. Details here:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...tg-simplicityinsound-december-7-2013-a-2.html
> 
> BigRed might make an appearance if you do. Heck, Darren might even make the drive up. Pretty sure I can get SQ and install judges too if you want to make it interesting and put up your work against theirs, name your format, SQ, install, MECA, IASCA, take your pick...


Dammmmmmnn!!!! Don't hurt them Papa!:laugh:


----------



## rton20s

papasin said:


> One last post for me, since one of you is local and content sitting behind your keyboard and calling out folks, come out and showcase your work in person. I'm organizing a gtg next month and since you say you're in NorCal, please come on over. Details here:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-gtg-simplicityinsound-december-7-2013-a.html
> 
> BigRed might make an appearance if you do. Heck, Darren might even make the drive up. Pretty sure I can get SQ and install judges too if you want to make it interesting and put up your work against theirs, name your format, SQ, install, MECA, IASCA, take your pick...



:lurk:


----------



## Golden Ear

papasin said:


> One last post for me, since one of you is local and content sitting behind your keyboard and calling out folks, come out and showcase your work in person. I'm organizing a gtg next month and since you say you're in NorCal, please come on over. Details here:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-gtg-simplicityinsound-december-7-2013-a.html
> 
> BigRed might make an appearance if you do. Heck, Darren might even make the drive up. Pretty sure I can get SQ and install judges too if you want to make it interesting and put up your work against theirs, name your format, SQ, install, MECA, IASCA, take your pick...


Bam! This right here^


----------



## Richv72

papasin said:


> One last post for me, since one of you is local and content sitting behind your keyboard and calling out folks, come out and showcase your work in person. I'm organizing a gtg next month and since you say you're in NorCal, please come on over. Details here:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-gtg-simplicityinsound-december-7-2013-a.html
> 
> BigRed might make an appearance if you do. Heck, Darren might even make the drive up. Pretty sure I can get SQ and install judges too if you want to make it interesting and put up your work against theirs, name your format, SQ, install, MECA, IASCA, take your pick...


Sounds like fun but ill pass.


----------



## Golden Ear

Richv72 said:


> Sounds like fun but ill pass.


What's the matter, scared that some 3rd graders with carpeted enclosures are going to have better looking and sounding cars than you?:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Funny how much crap people talk until its time to put up. You've been called out buddy, and that's how you're going out?


----------



## vivmike

Skeered.


----------



## Richv72

Golden Ear said:


> What's the matter, scared that some 3rd graders with carpeted enclosures are going to have better looking and sounding cars than you?:laugh::laugh::laugh:
> Funny how much crap people talk until its time to put up. You've been called out buddy, and that's how you're going out?


Why would I drive over an hour to be around people who I dont get along with. I saw what I needed to see already, the pictures were plenty. Plus I just love walking into wierd traps, Thanks ill pass.


----------



## neo_styles

Just wanted to mention that I learned something else in this thread and that's how God-awfully annoying it is to read entire paragraphs punctuated with nothing but exclamation points.

Here's my take on the new Zap: the consumers are really to blame for the move overseas. We want the same Zap quality, but don't want to spend more. Something has to give in the equation. So they moved their facility overseas, so what? They took the time to find a buildhouse that could do the work to Zapco's standards and managed to keep their production costs low.

Elektra, quite obviously, had two objectives in this thread. One: be the sole voice of "Zapco sucks," expecting rallying support with insubstantial evidence. Surprisingly enough (not) that didn't happen. But wait, there's more! A Zap dealer friend of his starts making a new line and he has nothing but AWESOME things to say about it. So diss competitor, pimp own product. Yeah, that sounds about right.

I'm not even going to touch the cables argument. Perfectly happy with my $20 AT Premiums here and I know they cost a fraction of that to make. Suffice to say I buy what's conveniently available.

FWIW, I'm in SoCal now, but moving to WA. Would love to join one of the NorCal meets and hear BigRed's truck. I'll be sure to tell you how PPI Art would stomp all over it, too 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

neo_styles said:


> Just wanted to mention that I learned something else in this thread and that's how God-awfully annoying it is to read entire paragraphs punctuated with nothing but exclamation points.
> 
> Here's my take on the new Zap: the consumers are really to blame for the move overseas. We want the same Zap quality, but don't want to spend more. Something has to give in the equation. So they moved their facility overseas, so what? They took the time to find a buildhouse that could do the work to Zapco's standards and managed to keep their production costs low.
> 
> Elektra, quite obviously, had two objectives in this thread. One: be the sole voice of "Zapco sucks," expecting rallying support with insubstantial evidence. Surprisingly enough (not) that didn't happen. But wait, there's more! A Zap dealer friend of his starts making a new line and he has nothing but AWESOME things to say about it. So diss competitor, pimp own product. Yeah, that sounds about right.
> 
> I'm not even going to touch the cables argument. Perfectly happy with my $20 AT Premiums here and I know they cost a fraction of that to make. Suffice to say I buy what's conveniently available.
> 
> FWIW, I'm in SoCal now, but moving to WA. Would love to join one of the NorCal meets and hear BigRed's truck. I'll be sure to tell you how PPI Art would stomp all over it, too
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


That Zap dealer deals in his own brand called Reference audio he has been doing business in that line for years - google it

I would not touch that stuff even if he gave it to me for free!


----------



## neo_styles

Elektra said:


> That Zap dealer deals in his own brand called Reference audio he has been doing business in that line for years - google it
> 
> I would not touch that stuff even if he gave it to me for free!


You've made the point quite clear, yet stick around to push whatever agenda of yours you have. Please leave as you've more than overstayed your welcome.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

neo_styles said:


> You've made the point quite clear, yet stick around to push whatever agenda of yours you have. Please leave as you've more than overstayed your welcome.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


I would but you directed an incorrect statement to me directly - so the only correct thing to do is respond accordingly. 

But if you read all the posts you would know that instead of making assumptions.

You guys are a barrel if laughs really.... I just having so much fun here it's hard to resist - you guys make it soooo easy! 

Anyway I am getting bored of ragging you half wits! 

"Your mama" lol!!!


----------



## neo_styles

Elektra said:


> I would but you directed an incorrect statement to me directly - so the only correct thing to do is respond accordingly.
> 
> But if you read all the posts you would know that instead of making assumptions.
> 
> You guys are a barrel if laughs really.... I just having so much fun here it's hard to resist - you guys make it soooo easy!
> 
> Anyway I am getting bored of ragging you half wits!
> 
> "Your mama" lol!!!


Kindly **** off. Thank you. And cultural barrier aside, you don't have the right to use "YO mama" anywhere.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## Elektra

neo_styles said:


> Kindly **** off. Thank you. And cultural barrier aside, you don't have the right to use "YO mama" anywhere.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


Yo Papa?


----------



## Elektra

rton20s said:


> Multiple choice time!
> 
> What I have learned in this thread...
> 
> A. Zapco Z series have been killing it in SQ comps.
> B. Some people are plagued by social issues.
> C. Some people appear to have some sot of mental disability.
> D. Some people are nothing more than trolls.
> E. All of above
> 
> Hmmm .... Tough choice! I think I'll go for A.... No wait... B! Arrrr... Can't choose! I think E! .... Yes that's best describes the people on this forum...
> 
> Isn't this like your school exams? Explains a lot!


----------



## vivmike

^^^ Simple Jack.


----------



## Elektra

neo_styles said:


> You've made the point quite clear, yet stick around to push whatever agenda of yours you have. Please leave as you've more than overstayed your welcome.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


I was referring to Reference Audio!


----------



## neo_styles

vivmike said:


> ^^^ Simple Jack.


I love you


----------



## Elektra

neo_styles said:


> I love you


Would you two like a room?


----------



## WestCo

Zapco lost one of their top designers to arc, before the release of the z-series.

Z-series amps do rated power and cleanly. Solid construction, well built overall.

Would I slap a "SQ" label on them... probably not, I wasn't impressed when we a/b/c'ed the zap z400.2 to a mcintosh and to a leviathan v3. 

You can argue back and forth about preconceived notions, placebo effects, whatever. I honestly expected the zapco to be around the same caliber as the other two, and unfortunately it was very dry sounding, with a serious lack of detail. 

That was in a home system at 4 ohms. It seemed to preform much better on drivers running at 6ohms, less muffled with more detail (full range response). So, in the appropriate setup I am sure they can do well. 

Again that's one amp in the z-series lineup. The others maybe more solid performers.


----------



## neo_styles

Elektra said:


> Would you two like a room?


If it means we don't have to hear your attempts at being relevant, I'm all for it.


----------



## Elektra

WestCo said:


> Zapco lost one of their top designers to arc, before the release of the z-series.
> 
> Z-series amps do rated power and cleanly. Solid construction, well built overall.
> 
> Would I slap a "SQ" label on them... probably not, I wasn't impressed when we a/b/c'ed the zap z400.2 to a mcintosh and to a leviathan v3.
> 
> You can argue back and forth about preconceived notions, placebo effects, whatever. I honestly expected the zapco to be around the same caliber as the other two, and unfortunately it was very dry sounding, with a serious lack of detail.
> 
> That was in a home system at 4 ohms. It seemed to preform much better on drivers running at 6ohms, less muffled with more detail (full range response). So, in the appropriate setup I am sure they can do well.
> 
> 
> 
> Again that's one amp in the z-series lineup. The others maybe more solid performers.



Don't kid yourself..

What car audio speakers apart from tweeters are rated 6ohms? So the only chance to get the amp sounding ok is to use speakers that come from a very limited pool of choice if any!

Careful bud! They will start with snake oil on you! And say your biased or something to that effect!

The amp sounded better probably due to the higher damping factor by running a 6ohm load - in truth your other amps in that test probably sounded better with a 6ohm load as well!


----------



## Elektra

neo_styles said:


> If it means we don't have to hear your attempts at being relevant, I'm all for it.


Use condoms please! Practice safe sex! It's the responsible thing to do....


----------



## neo_styles

Elektra said:


> Don't kid yourself..
> 
> What car audio speakers apart from tweeters are rated 6ohms? So the only chance to get the amp sounding ok is to use speakers that come from a very limited pool of choice if any!
> 
> Careful bud! They will start with snake oil on you! And say your biased or something to that effect!
> 
> The amp sounded better probably due to the higher damping factor by running a 6ohm load - in truth your other amps in that test probably sounded better with a 6ohm load as well!


That's funny, because Stephen Mantz has done extensive testing on several different ohm loads and noticed some pretty profound differences when going from just 8 to 4 ohms, so I feel YET AGAIN you choose to act like an authority without clout.



Elektra said:


> Use condoms please! Practice safe sex! It's the responsible thing to do....


Don't kid yourself. This advice is just as useless as your 90-something other posts-worth. Please stop posting.


----------



## Elektra

neo_styles said:


> That's funny, because Stephen Mantz has done extensive testing on several different ohm loads and noticed some pretty profound differences when going from just 8 to 4 ohms, so I feel YET AGAIN you choose to act like an authority without clout.
> 
> 
> Don't kid yourself. This advice is just as useless as your 90-something other posts-worth. Please stop posting.


So what your saying is that 8ohms sounds better than 4ohms? But isn't that what I said 4ohms to 6ohms sounds better?

I am confused!


----------



## Elektra

neo_styles said:


> That's funny, because Stephen Mantz has done extensive testing on several different ohm loads and noticed some pretty profound differences when going from just 8 to 4 ohms, so I feel YET AGAIN you choose to act like an authority without clout.
> 
> 
> Don't kid yourself. This advice is just as useless as your 90-something other posts-worth. Please stop posting.


So what your saying is that 8ohms sounds better than 4ohms? But isn't that what I said 4ohms to 6ohms sounds better?

I am confused! 

Aren't all amps tested and played at 4ohms (95% of the time) so only the 5% of people using Z amps are getting ok sound - PROVIDED that they use 8ohm loads 

Is it just me or do 90% of CAR audio manufacturers make 4ohm speakers?

Wow! That's kind of a small choice of speakers to use with your Z amps!


----------



## Elektra

neo_styles said:


> That's funny, because Stephen Mantz has done extensive testing on several different ohm loads and noticed some pretty profound differences when going from just 8 to 4 ohms, so I feel YET AGAIN you choose to act like an authority without clout.
> 
> 
> Don't kid yourself. This advice is just as useless as your 90-something other posts-worth. Please stop posting.


So you go bare back then? Brave!


----------



## Elektra

Elektra said:


> So you go bare back then? Brave!


Name me 5 sets of speakers that are 8ohms... And are cheaper than a Z amp! Bet you can't! 

So your amps are doomed for a lack of 8ohm speakers! Shame what a pity that all of you guys are in this predicament! 

Maybe the boys in Korea can slap a few sets of 8ohm drivers for you guys... Lol!


----------



## rton20s

Well... here is a quick start that took all of 1 minute to find.

Midrange, Midbass & Full-Range Speakers in the Speaker Components Department at Parts Express | 16 - 497|3920;498|3938

Oh, and you would probably want tweeters, too. There might be a couple of those out there. 
http://www.parts-express.com/cat/tweeters/17?kg=498|3938


----------



## neo_styles

Don't forget pro audio offerings like the PWX or even the Exodus Anarchy, Vifa NE-123, Scan 12M, and Dayton RS180. That's 5, right?


----------



## Elektra

neo_styles said:


> Don't forget pro audio offerings like the PWX or even the Exodus Anarchy, Vifa NE-123, Scan 12M, and Dayton RS180. That's 5, right?


Boys boys... I said CAR audio not home audio! I could have also said Madisound as well.... We talking a guy walking into a install place and picking up a brochure , Pioneer, Alpine etc we talking a layman here not audio experts! What does a layman know about Scanspeak and Vifa?

You guys are not reading the post properly come now focus here!


----------



## rton20s

Elektra said:


> Name me 5 sets of speakers that are 8ohms... And are cheaper than a Z amp! Bet you can't!





Elektra said:


> Boys boys... I said CAR audio not home audio! I could have also said Madisound as well.... We talking a guy walking into a install place and picking up a brochure , Pioneer, Alpine etc we talking a layman here not audio experts! What does a layman know about Scanspeak and Vifa?
> 
> You guys are not reading the post properly come now focus here!


You've obviously got mental issues. Done.


----------



## neo_styles

He just has to keep tweaking his requirements until he's right. Funny, everybody else I've ever met from South Africa was respectable, poised, and knew the English language better than 50% of Americans. Guess there's an exception to any rule.


----------



## reno.sa

What would the rated power drop to if using 8 ohm speakers instead of 4 ohms? Most probably wont be worth even experimenting with it as the speakers cost more and the amp might even become underpowered due to the 8 ohm load. So either way you don't come out on top.


----------



## neo_styles

reno.sa said:


> What would the rated power drop to if using 8 ohm speakers instead of 4 ohms? Most probably wont be worth even experimenting with it as the speakers cost more and the amp might even become underpowered due to the 8 ohm load. So either way you don't come out on top.


Keep generalizing. You're talking about a 3dB difference stepping from 4 to 8 ohms, assuming that there's a halving of power at the amplifier each time you double impedance. Also, most 8 ohm drivers are priced identical to their 4ohm counterpoints


----------



## reno.sa

neo_styles said:


> Keep generalizing. You're talking about a 3dB difference stepping from 4 to 8 ohms, assuming that there's a halving of power at the amplifier each time you double impedance. Also, most 8 ohm drivers are priced identical to their 4ohm counterpoints


I never mentioned anything about the power being halved, and I said "WHAT" would the rated power drop to? I didn't generalize anything you assumed that. Your looking for a argument. I never said anything to annoy or irritate you. And read what I wrote, I used words like MIGHT, MOST PROBABLY. I didn't say it WILL. Calm down no need to jump on people.


----------



## neo_styles

reno.sa said:


> I never mentioned anything about the power being halved, and I said "WHAT" would the rated power drop to? I didn't generalize anything you assumed that. Your looking for a argument. I never said anything to annoy or irritate you. And read what I wrote, I used words like MIGHT, MOST PROBABLY. I didn't say it WILL. Calm down no need to jump on people.


Please go back, reread your question, and understand why you were replied to in such a manner. If you don't know the answer, end with the question. Running a forum myself, it really rubs me raw when someone new to CA sees posts like that, gets it stuck in their head, and proceeds to regurgitate said post as gospel truth for the rest of their car audio life. I understand your view and apologize if I gave you the impression that I was looking for a fight, but realize the answers to your questions already exist here in a thread dedicated to drivers running at 8 ohms. It would help you to find and read said thread as a lot of your questions would be answered.

Again, sorry if I came off harsh to you. Not my intent.


----------



## captainobvious

neo_styles said:


> He just has to keep tweaking his requirements until he's right. Funny, everybody else I've ever met from South Africa was respectable, poised, and knew the English language better than 50% of Americans. Guess there's an exception to any rule.


Just like in America, you can't blame the South African school system for not being able to get through to all of the children.


----------



## captainobvious

Allow me...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...d-our-members/31-real-deal-8-ohm-drivers.html

.


----------



## reno.sa

WestCo said:


> Zapco lost one of their top designers to arc, before the release of the z-series.
> 
> Z-series amps do rated power and cleanly. Solid construction, well built overall.
> 
> Would I slap a "SQ" label on them... probably not, I wasn't impressed when we a/b/c'ed the zap z400.2 to a mcintosh and to a leviathan v3.
> 
> You can argue back and forth about preconceived notions, placebo effects, whatever. I honestly expected the zapco to be around the same caliber as the other two, and unfortunately it was very dry sounding, with a serious lack of detail.
> 
> That was in a home system at 4 ohms. It seemed to preform much better on drivers running at 6ohms, less muffled with more detail (full range response). So, in the appropriate setup I am sure they can do well.
> 
> Again that's one amp in the z-series lineup. The others maybe more solid performers.


Which Z Model did you test?


----------



## Klifton Keplinger

WestCo said:


> Zapco lost one of their top designers to arc, before the release of the z-series.


Who?


----------



## reno.sa

Think he is talking about Robert Zeff.


----------



## Klifton Keplinger

Robert Zeff was gone from Zapco before the C2K series...


----------



## captainobvious

Personally I like the understated look of the amps. The only thing I might change is the label. It would look nicer engraved.


----------



## subwoofery

Elektra said:


> Don't kid yourself..
> 
> What car audio speakers apart from tweeters are rated 6ohms? So the only chance to get the amp sounding ok is to use speakers that come from a very limited pool of choice if any!
> 
> Careful bud! They will start with snake oil on you! And say your biased or something to that effect!
> 
> *The amp sounded better probably due to the higher damping factor by running a 6ohm load - in truth your other amps in that test probably sounded better with a 6ohm load as well!*





subwoofery said:


> Damping factor doesn't do anything and is not an important spec either:
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/449977-post34.html
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/605531-post11.html
> 
> Kelvin


Quoting myself coz I'm lazy 

Kelvin


----------



## Tnutt19

subwoofery said:


> Quoting myself coz I'm lazy
> 
> Kelvin





Elektra said:


> So let me see if this is about right?
> 
> We discuss the merits of a well known product and their ability to produce an amp that is befitting the name and reputation called Zapco - which I find it very hard to believe that absolutely NO ONE can say anything bad about it - not even the fact it doesn't even come with a manual! Or that it's not made in the USA which Americans are famous for being so patriotic!
> 
> To discussing cable - to discussing death - to discussing racial insecurities!
> 
> Exactly what are we going to discuss next ... The after life , religion?
> 
> This is such a biased uniformative forum where the only fun one gets is ragging everyone! But it would seem that some don't like to be ragged on! But the same some like to dish it out at the same time!
> 
> This is clearly a Forum to boost ZAPCO's image as to the fact that everyone jerks off over their amps - no one on this forum can honestly call themselves enthusiasts or audiophiles as they won't explore other products that might enhance there quest for audio nirvana! Like my mama once said don't put all your eggs in one basket!
> 
> You guys clearly do!
> 
> Their are few things one should consider everyone claims that Zapco doesn't look after them but for some Zapco does - I have read such outlandish comments that range from Z's being better than super billet 6 TRU amps to my emails being public knowledge - this all smacks of a PR exercise designed to fool unsuspecting purchasers
> 
> Fact remains that the only review done by an international reviewer chose an amp that cost 7 times less over a Z amp - I have asked many times to see the reviews that support this forums claims - but alas I have not seen them - every time I make an accusation for instance - "I don't believe you owned a TRU amp" everything else in that quote was torn apart EXCEPT the biggest statement! I also made an accusation of someone being a Zapco employee as he has emails I sent to Zapco - that accusation wasn't dealt with only "your mama" as if he was the only one who suffered a loss - what about my family? But I didn't make a big deal about it!
> 
> Fact remains that I don't know anyone who shares this forums claims...
> 
> I own some of the best equipment on the market today - and if find something better I have no issues to off load what I have for a better product - that my friend is an enthusiast and an audiophile!
> 
> Unlike you guys my equipment is worth something and as of yet I haven't really lost money on my equipment - your Z amps are losing value before you even buy them! New Z amps are selling for under $300 on eBay! 20 year old Zapco amps are selling for higher!
> 
> Can't wait for Auto HiFi to review these amps ... When they do that will be the end of Zapco! As they are about the most reputable reviewers and when people see the ratings compared to the old amps - this forum will not be able to argue with anything! Except call it snake oil!
> 
> I'll be sure to post the review on this forum...


Why do you go to ever thread searching for fights. You don't like the forum, then leave! Once again we get it you don't like the Zapco amps, that's fine. But when your making it your life mission to derail every thread on them that is straight up bashing. Anyone curious about them can do a history search and see any of your 2000 negative marks about them, so you put it out there. There is someone in the world that does not find the Zapco amplifiers to be satisfying. If you don't have anything new to add then it might be time to try a new topic and move in. 
And your understanding of slang is a little off, guessing because of movies, who knows, but you should think twice before saying certain things. Luckily for you it's a friendly online forum, if you were in NYC, Chicago, LA, Atlanta or a several other cities it could be very fatal. Especially the racist comments.

Time to move on


----------



## cutra

Well one of my first real systems was this in my car. It was awesome. I since moved to the Z series from the 90's and loved them even more. Can't say more than they were awesome pieces of work which I still own and would NEVER sell..


----------



## Richv72

cutra said:


> Well one of my first real systems was this in my car. It was awesome. I since moved to the Z series from the 90's and loved them even more. Can't say more than they were awesome pieces of work which I still own and would NEVER sell..


I agree the old stuff was awesome. That was when zapco was really zapco.


----------



## Tnutt19

It seems though if the new stuff is being used in vehicles winning world championships then the potential of the new amps are plenty good right? And they are priced to be more affordable so what's the problem, if you are looking to break the bank then go buy some thesis amps, other wise the price point is pretty impressive.

And in all seriousness I trust Korean manufacturing above US at this point, those that are complaining about the quality being down because they are made in Korea, have any of you actually been to Korea?


----------



## Darth SQ

13 pages, 8 of them crap.
What a waste of time.
And still no decent gut pics.

Elektra, stop being a troll.
You now have the undivided attention of the mod staff.
Consider it your official warning.

Rich72, I would personally like to meet you at the gtg whether you bring your car or not.
It will be a fun time and no one's going to play you.
It's a great group of people and there will be a lot DIYMA member's cars to audition.
PM me if you have any questions about going. 


(addendum)
I can not believe even the "N" word came up in this thread.......unbelievable.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Elektra

Tnutt19 said:


> Why do you go to ever thread searching for fights. You don't like the forum, then leave! Once again we get it you don't like the Zapco amps, that's fine. But when your making it your life mission to derail every thread on them that is straight up bashing. Anyone curious about them can do a history search and see any of your 2000 negative marks about them, so you put it out there. There is someone in the world that does not find the Zapco amplifiers to be satisfying. If you don't have anything new to add then it might be time to try a new topic and move in.
> And your understanding of slang is a little off, guessing because of movies, who knows, but you should think twice before saying certain things. Luckily for you it's a friendly online forum, if you were in NYC, Chicago, LA, Atlanta or a several other cities it could be very fatal. Especially the racist comments.
> 
> Time to move on


I have but the whole racial think smacks of stupidity! 

I reiterate IT WAS A EXPRESSION! If your too stupid to know the difference then go back to school...


----------



## Elektra

PPI-ART COLLECTOR said:


> 13 pages, 8 of them crap.
> What a waste of time.
> And still no decent gut pics.
> 
> Elektra, stop being a troll.
> You now have the undivided attention of the mod staff.
> Consider it your official warning.
> 
> Rich72, I would personally like to meet you at the gtg whether you bring your car or not.
> It will be a fun time and no one's going to play you.
> It's a great group of people and there will be a lot DIYMA member's cars to audition.
> PM me if you have any questions about going.
> 
> 
> (addendum)
> I can not believe even the "N" word came up in this thread.......unbelievable.
> 
> 
> Bret
> PPI-ART COLLECTOR


 Bret ....

Like I said many times on this forum - a figure of speech or expression is not directed to anyone personally! I really can't understand why people are making such a big deal about this?

You can read anything you want to read and make it any issue if want shows lack of maturity and intelligence I assume everyone on this forum is above 12?


----------



## Richv72

It wasnt a waste of time if we all had fun.


----------



## Darth SQ

Elektra said:


> Bret ....
> 
> Like I said many times on this forum - a figure of speech or expression is not directed to anyone personally! I really can't understand why people are making such a big deal about this?
> 
> You can read anything you want to read and make it any issue if want shows lack of maturity and intelligence I assume everyone on this forum is above 12?


Because you came in this thread with sharp elbows and guns blazin.
What did you think was going to happen?


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Elektra

neo_styles said:


> He just has to keep tweaking his requirements until he's right. Funny, everybody else I've ever met from South Africa was respectable, poised, and knew the English language better than 50% of Americans. Guess there's an exception to any rule.


I thought my requirements were very clear... Name me 5 sets of speakers that are 8ohms and cost less than a Z amp for car audio? Cos Zapco is a car audio brand you want to use first and foremost car audio brands - right?

Were did my requirements get tweaked? 

Trust me I know the English language better than anyone on this forum... Judging by the language and punctuation used here.


----------



## Darth SQ

Elektra said:


> I thought my requirements were very clear... Name me 5 sets of speakers that are 8ohms and cost less than a Z amp for car audio? Cos Zapco is a car audio brand you want to use first and foremost car audio brands - right?
> 
> Were did my requirements get tweaked?
> 
> Trust me I know the English language better than anyone on this forum... Judging by the language and punctuation used here.


And you're still insulting others.
I don't think you know how to stop.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------



## Darth SQ

Ok, this thread's done.
Closed before someone gets kicked to the curb.


Bret
PPI-ART COLLECTOR


----------

