# 2015 Porsche 911 Carrera



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

I own a 2015 Porsche Carrera, and this is my build log. Welcome!




The car came with the stock Sound Package Plus (no Bose or Burmester upgrades). The head unit has stock low-level output and remote to an ASK amplifier that lives under the passenger seat, and that amplifier drives 9 speakers. There's a center channel in the dash, two tweeters in the dash (that a wired in parallel with a 4" in the each door), 4" in the doors, 8" in the doors, and two 4" in the rear.



Schematic of the PCM (head unit) output, and amp/speaker wiring.


You can see my journey up this point in my previous thread, over in the "Help me choose" forum: https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...nt-my-car/413729-3-way-system-2015-911-a.html

Cliffs Notes: I wasn't impressed with the stock Sound Package Plus package in my C2. I replaced the tweeters in the stock locations first with some inexpensive DA tweeters that impressed me, but I had plans to go further. Removed the stock amp, made wiring harness adapters, and installed a Helix V Eight DSP and ran some new speaker wires for the tweeters. Still not enough, I installed some DA RS100p's and Focal ISS-200's in the doors. Did some Noico deadening on the outer door, inner door skin, and door panel. That leads us to here.

Some pics so far...


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

So what's next? 

I'm going to swap the front stage for Esotec MD-102 tweeters, MD-142 mids, and MW-172 woofers. I'll 3D print new brackets for the tweeters and mids, and I'll re-use the adapter I made for the ISS-200. These should be in by end of next week. I also plan to pull the inner door card when I have the panel off again & add some more Noico; when I did it the first time I just reached up through the 8" woofer hole, and only part of the outer door is covered. May as well do the rest, I have a ton of the stuff left.

I'm also going to have Mobile Toys in College Station, TX design & build a subwoofer box for me. It's going to go on the rear parcel shelf. I know this is DIY mobile audio, but I want it to look GOOOD, and I trust them to do exactly that. It'll be an Illusion Audio C10 driven by a Mosconi D2 500.1. The Mosconi will be installed under the seat with the Helix.

Hope to have this all installed by the end of the month. I have plans to have the sub box built & installed the week after next, so if everything goes right, in two weeks or so, this should be a fully installed. I can't wait.

I'll update the thread with pictures & info as I make progress.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Followed the bread crumbs over. I look forward to seeing the updates.


----------



## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Good stuff! Looking forward to seeing the speaker swap update. As I mentioned in the other thread the boys at Mobile Toys will do a good job with the sub box. Maybe they could get a base tune on the car as well. 

They have some amazing comps in College Station - I’ve been to a couple of them - there’s some guys you need to hook up with like Howard and Chad - several others. Look up the Aggieland comps on DIYMA - could compete or just go and listen to great cars. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

I dig what's going on here ! Nice gear and killer car. Love that interior . Makes me want a PB and J 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## phroenips (Nov 20, 2018)

Very nice. 

Where did you source the OEM style speaker connectors? Or is it an actual Porsche part? If so, could you share the part number?


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

phroenips said:


> Where did you source the OEM style speaker connectors? Or is it an actual Porsche part? If so, could you share the part number?


There are two different connectors in use. The tweeters and front/rear 4" use one, and the woofer use a different. I just cut them off and replaced them with different connectors. The others are clipped into the speakers I took out, they'll be easy to replace.

Here are the connectors I'm using for the speakers: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XBLLG5S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I didn't cut the amp wiring harness, though. I got a 987 Cayman amp and removed the connectors; they're nearly identical. And I made wiring adapters from those connectors.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

Sunday evening update.

I pulled the door panels off to do some more Noico on the outer door wall. I pulled the door panel, removed the speakers, and then mostly removed the inner door skin - enough for me to reach in & add some more Noico to the sides of the doors I couldn't reach through the woofer hole.

PS> Yeah, I know my pics suck. They're always an afterthought and the lighting in the garage sucks. :shrug:

Pile of door panels:

Door with speakers out:

Between the inner door panel & the outer door metal:



After I got the inner door panels back on, I started thinking about mounting the MD-142's. Turns out, they won't fit in the holes I have. And I don't know if you can remove the speakers from the cup they're shipped in, to mount them in something custom. I posted about it here: https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...n/415105-dynaudio-md-102-md-142-mounting.html

So yeah, I'm 50/50 about whether or not I think you can de-cup the MD-142. And so I decided to go with speakers I know will fit, and i was able to change the order from MD-142's to Esotar 430's. So I've got that going for me, which is nice.

Since I had the doors apart, I decided to go ahead & mount the MW-172's. I wasn't happy with the brackets I made the first time; the HDPE rings were great, but CA glue WILL NOT adhere to HDPE, and I ended up rings screwed to the ABS adapter, and it just bugged me. So I re-used the rings, routered out new ABS adapters, and glued them together with some JB Weld plastics epoxy I got at the Home Despot. I also drilled & tapped 6 4mm holes for metric fasteners as well from the back side. Those adapters are now super-solid. I could drive over them in my car & they'd be fine. For posterity & google searches: The ABS brackets are .236" thick, and the HDPE rings are 1" thick. The window doesn't hit the speakers, which I was little concerned about at first (they're deeper than the Focal's they replaced).

So here's a bad picture of the MW-172's in the doors:


The car now has the DA ND20FB-4 tweeters in the dash, MW-172's in the doors, and a pair of DA RS100p-4 in the rear speaker positions. I'm waiting on the MD-102 tweeters for the dash swap, and the Esotar 430's for the doors.

I've also been prototyping a DIY remote for the Helix. Here's the first prototype of the box; I've wired up an ethernet cable to an 8-pin Mini-DIN connector to connect to the Helix already. This has changed a bunch; I'm making something more complex to mount under the passenger seat within easy reach of the driver's seat. I don't want it visible, putting it in the glovebox sounds like a PITA to get to, and I don't want to give up any center console storage space. I only want the one remote for sub volume, and a switch for swapping DSP presets; I don't care about the system volume, so a second knob like the URC.3 is almost a downside for me. The LED changes color based on which way the switch is thrown; think I'm going to delete that, as you don't need it under the seat. And I'll be able to feel which way the switch is pointed.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

MD-102's and Esotar 430's should be delivered tomorrow! Things are progressing nicely.

My custom Helix remote control is nearly done. I'm done with the box and cabling, all I have to do is solder in a couple of connections in the box, and then it's testing in the car time. There's a convenient ledge under the passenger seat that I'm planning on velcro-ing it to. There's a potentiometer to control sub volume, a switch to swap between two presets, a cut-through to secure it tightly with velro, and a mount for an ethernet keystone jack (the type you see in a wall plate). I used an ethernet cable, and went from Mini-Din 8 (the connector at the Helix) to a Cat5 ethernet plug. This will plug into the remote box, so I can disassemble & change if I ever want to.

Box with a 3-D printed potentiometer knob:


Cable:


A mock-up for the mount of the keystone ethernet jack... needed to prototype it before burning it into the full box:


And I'm getting ready to kick off the printer with two adapters for the Esotar 430's. This is Tinkercad; it's a free, simple, online CAD that any dummy can use and learn quickly if you can stack shapes and holes:


As long as those E430 adapters work, I just have to finish up the tweeter bracket design, print them, and put it all together! Exciting. They system sounds remarkably good with just a pair of MW-172's and the DA 3/4" tweets in it; I can't wait to see how it sounds with the MD-102's and the E430's. And then next week, the sub goes in if everything goes to plan!

Speaking of the MD-102, I'm planning on putting 22uF caps in series with them and "oh **** I screwed up a crossover" ejection handles. The DC resistance of the MD-102 is 5.6ohm, and with a 22uF cap, it gives me 1300Hz. This is exactly the Fs of the MD-102, and it's ~1.5 octaves below where my crossovers will likely be set. I have 33uF (lower freq than I'd like) and 10uF (less that 1 octave clearance from 5kHz). If anyone thinks I should use a different cap, I'd love to know.


----------



## JoshC1 (Mar 11, 2018)

I really like that car, looking good!


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

Got a package!


----------



## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Sweet!!! I think you will be extremely happy with those! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

Incredible mids!!



flgfish said:


> Got a package!


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

The ****ing holes don't line up. Did I read the drawing wrong? It says 4mm holes on 110mm centers. ARGGGHH more hours of printing before I can install them now.



I did get the tweeter brackets drawn. I'm printing a low res version of the cup to make sure I got it right....


----------



## Dan750iL (Jan 16, 2016)

flgfish said:


> The ****ing holes don't line up. Did I read the drawing wrong? It says 4mm holes on 110mm centers. ARGGGHH more hours of printing before I can install them now.
> 
> 
> 
> I did get the tweeter brackets drawn. I'm printing a low res version of the cup to make sure I got it right....


101mm centers

https://dynaudiodata.blob.core.windows.net/media/2532/esotar2_430.pdf


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

Dan750iL said:


> 101mm centers
> 
> https://dynaudiodata.blob.core.windows.net/media/2532/esotar2_430.pdf



Yeah, 110. Ugh.
And now Tinkercad has corrupted all three of the files I'm working on. It's not going well at present. Argh.


----------



## Dan750iL (Jan 16, 2016)

The holes are 101. The outside diameter of the speaker is 110.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

Dan750iL said:


> The holes are 101. The outside diameter of the speaker is 110.


Yeah, I see what I did wrong. That was a bad joke above. I had the drawing up on my second monitor while doing it, so I'm not sure how I screwed it up. Can't divide 101 by 2 maybe? Or I just got 110 in my head like a dummy. Who knows? Anyway, I screwed it up.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

Progress! Since I had to redraw & reprint the Esotar 430 brackets, and I had the door panels off, I took the time to add some Noico around the MW-172's. I've had the door panels on & off enough now that I was reasonably comfortable nothing would hinder me getting the panel back on by doing it. The panels aren't like others I've worked on; they have hooks on the outer panel that slide into retainers on the inner panel. So there's some vertical motion getting the panel off & on; it doesn't just bolt straight on. It's just these hooks/loops retainers and 4 bolts. This is one of the several reasons I'm also not going to mess with Fast Rings; I'm pretty sure they'd just get fubared when the outer panel goes back on.



Then I spent some time finishing up the remote control. It's done! Came out pretty well, for what it is.





And finally, the new brackets finished printing. I recessed some 3mm nuts into the bracket this time for mounting the speakers; it worked great.


----------



## DavidRam (Nov 2, 2014)

Very nice, man!!!


----------



## Dan750iL (Jan 16, 2016)

flgfish said:


> Yeah, I see what I did wrong. That was a bad joke above. I had the drawing up on my second monitor while doing it, so I'm not sure how I screwed it up. Can't divide 101 by 2 maybe? Or I just got 110 in my head like a dummy. Who knows? Anyway, I screwed it up.


I wish I could say I'd never done something like that. My measure twice cut wrong anyway technique has never been a winner! D'oh!


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

Dan750iL said:


> I wish I could say I'd never done something like that. My measure twice cut wrong anyway technique has never been a winner! D'oh!


I wish I could say I only messed up the measurements on that drawing, but the holes for the mounting screws were oval instead of 3mm circles for some reason as well. I was really on my game that evening!

Here's the new bracket that works. These will end up on Thingiverse if anyone wants them.


Adding the link: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3449073


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

So both Esotar 430's are in. They're incredible. Wow. No EQ or anything at this point, standard LR 24dB crossovers. MW172 set at 50-500, E430 at 500-4000, tweeters at 4000+. This will need work but it's a safe starting point for now. Suggestions for massaging this to start would be appreciated.

I'm finishing up the tweeter brackets. I had to modify the cup a bit - the printed cup was just a smidge too small for the tweeter. It would fit, but it took more force than I'd like to get it in. So I'm reprinting it.

I took the old tweeters out, and thankfully the new Porsche Burmester grills showed up. In my SPP setup & the Bose setup, the tweeter actually mounts to the grill. In the Burmester setup, the grill has a much larger cutout & the tweeter mounts to tabs in the actual dash. I'm going to use those tabs, so I needed the Burmester grill. It'll be obvious why when you see the pictures below.






I also made the appointment for Mobile Toys to build & install the sub. March 19th/20th it'll be at their shop.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

I've stayed up way too late tonight, dicking around with my 3D printer. But we have tweeters!





Couple notes on the 3D printed model, in case anyone wants to duplicate this. I printed the cup & the base seperately & used CA glue and woodworking clamp to join the two parts. The CA glue bond appears stronger than the PLA it's holding together, so I have no worries. Also, the speaker legs are too long for the depth of the mounting area, so I'm going to have to cut them shorter. No big deal, I'll still have plenty of area to solder to. I also think I'm going to find a different mounting solution than the one they came with - Ace hardware down the street has a large selection of fasteners...

I'm printing the second now, it'll be done in the morning and then I'll get them soldered up & installed tomorrow afternoon, if all goes well.

I'm really glad my first meeting isn't until 10 tomorrow.


----------



## asianinvasion21 (Sep 24, 2012)

Nice work! That's crazy the car comes with 8 inch mids in the doors. I had to make kick panels to get my mw172's in the car. Are you using a full size 3D printer? Or is it one of the mini 3D printers?


----------



## asianinvasion21 (Sep 24, 2012)

Nice work! That's crazy the car comes with 8 inch mids in the doors. I had to make kick panels to get my mw172's in the car. Are you using a full size 3D printer? Or is it one of the mini 3D printers?


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

asianinvasion21 said:


> Nice work! That's crazy the car comes with 8 inch mids in the doors. I had to make kick panels to get my mw172's in the car. Are you using a full size 3D printer? Or is it one of the mini 3D printers?


They'll fit the 9-inch Morel MW9's and CAW938's as well. It's a good size hole and very nice to work with.

I'm using an Ender 3. It has a 200x200 bed, which is why I didn't do the 8" brackets on it; didn't want to print them in two pieces & join them. It's been a great learning printer, but I really wish I'd have gotten something with a self-leveling bed, like a Prusa 3. The Prusa was 2x the money though, and this is my first personal printer. I've been printing these the brackets in PLA, but I think I'm going to re-do them in ABS before the summer gets here. The car gets hot parked outdoors in the summer in Houston, and I don't want to have to worry about the PLA brackets warping or something. I didn't even consider it until this morning; I was doing some shrinkwrap on the tweeters and the heat gun made the PLA soft. That got me thinking....


----------



## asianinvasion21 (Sep 24, 2012)

flgfish said:


> They'll fit the 9-inch Morel MW9's and CAW138's as well. It's a good size hole and very nice to work with.
> 
> I'm using an Ender 3. It's been a great learning printer, but I really wish I'd have gotten something with a self-leveling bed, like a Prusa 3. The Prusa was 2x the money though, and this is my first personal printer. I've been printing these the brackets in PLA, but I think I'm going to re-do them in ABS before the summer gets here. The car gets hot parked outdoors in the summer in Houston, and I don't want to have to worry about the PLA brackets warping or something. I didn't even consider it until this morning; I was doing some shrinkwrap on the tweeters and the heat gun made the PLA soft. That got me thinking....


Maybe a layer of truck bed liner or fiberglass resin might help. I was looking at the mono price 3d printer which was very affordable as well. Do you think the Ender 3 is a better choice? I would love to have one for projects like this. I've always wanted to 3D print some tweeter pods or dash pieces. What is the maximum size for printing?


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

The first tweeter is in, and the second bracket should finish printing any moment. I redid a couple of things on it; I made the cup 2mm deeper to be 100% sure the speaker cone would be below the grill; I changed the mounting screw to a 4mm cap head from the one that came with the speaker. I soldered it up with a 22uF cap, put a bit of CA glue on the cap to make sure it didn't bounce around, and it's in. I used speed nuts and 1/4" hex head machine screws to bolt it to the holes that were in the car.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

asianinvasion21 said:


> Maybe a layer of truck bed liner or fiberglass resin might help. I was looking at the mono price 3d printer which was very affordable as well. Do you think the Ender 3 is a better choice? I would love to have one for projects like this. I've always wanted to 3D print some tweeter pods or dash pieces. What is the maximum size for printing?


You can anneal PLA in 212F hot water - it hardens up & becomes more resistant to heat thereafter. It also shrinks. The bedliner & fiberglass are good ideas, but honestly, just printing it in ABS or PETG will easier. ABS for sure will be fine; there's a lot of it already used in our cars. Injection molded ABS is some large percentage of the stuff under the dash...

I looked at the monoprice ones. Pretty sure the recommended one & the Ender are both based on the Prusa 2 design, so they're probably pretty close. The Ender was on sale & Amazon got it to me in 2 days (yay for impulse control), so I went Ender. I've been very happy with it, once I got done fiddling with it enough to get it printing rock solid. The CR10 is a good choice if you want to do larger stuff; it's basically the Ender with a larger bed. I can do 200x200 on my Ender (that's about 7.8" x 7.8"), and you go do longer stuff on a diagonal but it can't be as wide. I'm not even sure how tall it'll print, I haven't done anyting over 50mm tall or so.


----------



## asianinvasion21 (Sep 24, 2012)

flgfish said:


> You can anneal PLA in 212F hot water - it hardens up & becomes more resistant to heat thereafter. It also shrinks. The bedliner & fiberglass are good ideas, but honestly, just printing it in ABS or PETG will easier. ABS for sure will be fine; there's a lot of it already used in our cars. Injection molded ABS is some large percentage of the stuff under the dash...
> 
> I looked at the monoprice ones. Pretty sure the recommended one & the Ender are both based on the Prusa 2 design, so they're probably pretty close. The Ender was on sale & Amazon got it to me in 2 days (yay for impulse control), so I went Ender. I've been very happy with it, once I got done fiddling with it enough to get it printing rock solid. The CR10 is a good choice if you want to do larger stuff; it's basically the Ender with a larger bed. I can do 200x200 on my Ender (that's about 7.8" x 7.8"), and you go do longer stuff on a diagonal but it can't be as wide. I'm not even sure how tall it'll print, I haven't done anyting over 50mm tall or so.


Thanks for the input! I will probably go with something under $200 just to get started. 200x200 is plenty enough for small pieces. I suppose you could always design the pieces and link them together if you need to make something bigger.


----------



## asianinvasion21 (Sep 24, 2012)

Those tweeter brackets you made look great btw.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

asianinvasion21 said:


> Thanks for the input! I will probably go with something under $200 just to get started. 200x200 is plenty enough for small pieces. I suppose you could always design the pieces and link them together if you need to make something bigger.


I think I paid $280 for my Ender 3. You'll want to upgrade a couple small things - the bed springs primarily, but those are all cheap parts. You can also print upgrades for it once it's running - I've built a different mount for the PLA spool to mount it lower on the frame, and a new "brain box" fan shroud, for instance. People have tons of upgrades and mods for different printers on Thingiverse.

People do solvent welding on 3D prints; acetone works on ABS, and chloroform works on PLA. I can tell you that CA glue (superglue) seems to be stronger than the PLA it's mounted to, I just use that. I used CA glue to join the two pieces of the tweeter bracket, for instance. That was the best way to get a clean print without any big overhangs.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

My Helix did something strange today. After I got the tweeters installed, I went to turn on the system & play with it. And there was no sound! The amp didn't load a profile, and it wouldn't connect via USB - it was in a strange "connecting" loop. I had to pull the passenger seat and reset the amp. After that, it updated and I reloaded the profiles. It seemed fine and I drove the car to dinner. After dinner, same thing. I reloaded the profiles and scratched my head the entire drive home. I parked the car for an hour, went out again and the amp started right up. However, it would only let me connect to Profile 1 - if I tried to load Profile 2, it went back into the connecting/loading/disconnecting loop. Scratched my head some more and decided I may have hit a software bug in v4.42b. Uninstalled the app from my PC, reset the amp again, installed v4.31b, and all seems good now. I can switch between profiles, all is normal once more. Strange thing is, it worked fine for the first two weeks or so I had the amp in; I guess it got into this state when I futzed with it last night, playing with the Esotar 430's after I got them in. I don't know if it truly was a software bug, maybe my installation on my PC got borked, or something else. Hopefully it's smooth sailing from here. My seat is still out, so if I need to mess with it more this weekend, then I can easily.

Since the seat was out, I went ahead and did two more things. First, I changed the USB cable for one that winds up into reel. This will let me keep it in the car and wind it up under the seat when I'm not using it. It's pretty handy. 

I also tested & installed the remote. Works great. I used zip ties to mount it to a bracket under the passenger seat, inside easy reach of the driver's seat. I didn't want to give up any console space (there's not much to begin with), and I didn't want it visible anywhere. Under the seat seemed like a reasonable place to stick it. I was going to mount it with Velcro loop, but it turns out zip ties are easier to use and result in a much more solid mount. 

The picture sucks, but it was an afterthought as I was walking out.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

I've decided I don't like the mount under the seat. It's too hard to reach. I thought it would be closer than it turned out to be. I'm working on a new solution now.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

In progress...





I only wired up a subwoofer knob. It's going to live in the center ashtray. It works in testing, the wires are all run, I just have to finish making the mounting insert & I can put it all back together. It's a much better solution than under the seat, for sure.


----------



## AAAple (Mar 15, 2019)

Hi, I have a 2013 C2S cab with the Bose system and am thinking of replacing the stock tweeters with the Esotec DM-102s like you. But I'm not doing anything else. Do you think I just need to add the 22uF cap and nothing else? Do you have any idea what the Musicar guys are doing for a crossover? The Dynaudio brochure shows an impedance compensation circuit. Did you consider adding that? Thanks for any feedback!


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

AAAple said:


> Hi, I have a 2013 C2S cab with the Bose system and am thinking of replacing the stock tweeters with the Esotec DM-102s like you. But I'm not doing anything else. Do you think I just need to add the 22uF cap and nothing else? Do you have any idea what the Musicar guys are doing for a crossover? The Dynaudio brochure shows an impedance compensation circuit. Did you consider adding that? Thanks for any feedback!


With the Bose system, there is a 4.7uF cap in series with the tweeter. That tweeter is in parallel with the door 4" mid, and it's there as a 1st order crossover. I put a 10uF cap in with the Dayton Audio tweeters I put in first, because I wanted it to play lower frequencies than the 4.7uF would allow. 

22uF is going to be too large to be an effective crossover for your tweeter. I'd be thinking about something more in the 10uF range. I chose 22uF specifically to get it at over an octave from where my crossover from the tweeter would be set. It's only there in case I screw up the crossover programming, or my amp goes sideways... it's a fail-safe to protect the speaker.

To be honest, if you're not upgrading anything else, I'd look at the DA tweeters I used. Give them a go. It'll cost you 40 bucks and two hours to try out, and I was really impressed with them. I only changed them because I was upgrading everything else as well. With the MD-102 upgrade, you also have to buy the Burmester grills ($100/each), the tweeters (~$300) and then figure out how to mount them (you can print my brackets if you have a printer, and you can get the speed nuts and bolts at Ace Hardware) and connect them (I used different connectors). You're also going to only be able to send them the power you have with the Bose amp, and they're always going to be in parallel with a 4" mid speaker.

As for Musicar, no, I don't know what they're doing. If you look at pictures of their kit, there is a bunch of epoxy on the bottom which I assume covers a capacitor and their solder connections for their connector. I also don't know where to get that connector, but I didn't look very long for it either.

I didn't worry about any impedance compensation circuit. I guess I could look at it in the brochure, but honestly, impedance is variable with frequency. That's why manufacturers publish those impedance charts. I don't want more circuitry in the signal path, burning power. All of this is tunable on my DSP anyway, as far as I care about it.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

Couple pictures of where I am with my ashtray sub knob. I've got the shape nailed, but I've been playing with different 3D printed plastics & finishes. This one is ABS that I sanded a bit and used acetone to give it a bit of a shine. It's not perfect, but my favorite so far. I did an insert and knob in PLA and sanded it, painted it and finished it with a clear acrylic as well; it looks GREAT, but the finish is a bit soft. Clear poly or nail polish may work better. I also did ABS and tried to do acetone vapor smoothing; they looked great but got a little "melty". I guess I left them in vapor too long. Anyway, more experimentation here in the future.

I mounted the insert simply, and it's not permanent since I know I'll want to try different finishes as I play with stuff. There are a couple legs under the top that hold it in place (and leave room for the 10Kohm potentiometer underneath). Those are just stuck into some sticky wall-hanging adhesive we had around the house; it's kind of like Silly Putty, if you remember that stuff.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

i cleaned the car today, so I took a couple pics in the garage. I'm heading to College Station for the sub box install, should be done Tuesday afternoon. Excited to hear it, especially since some pros are going to tune the whole system as well...


----------



## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Excited for you! Would be cool to get a full description of what they did once you get back.


----------



## AAAple (Mar 15, 2019)

Must be nice to live in a warm climate. My car is still in storage (MN).


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

bertholomey said:


> Excited for you! Would be cool to get a full description of what they did once you get back.


Thanks! Car is in the shop now & I'm just hanging out. Should be done tomorrow afternoon. They have a red 488 GTB in there as well, getting the full meal deal (audio + countermeasures). My 911 looks positively pedestrian next to that beauty!


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

I got home too late to get decent pics of the sub box. It's dark, and the lighting is terrible. I'll post some later. I'm pleased with how it came out. How about a teaser pic from the mid-build?


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

So here are some more pictures of the build process & the final install. The Mosconi D2 500.1 was installed under the driver's seat. Chris did a tune on the system & it sounds great. The sub jams, and the entire system is superb. The team at MTI did a great job, very professional crew & their shop is like a wonderland if you're a fabrication nerd. They had a sweet 488GTB in the shop next to my car, and a couple full custom builds going on at the same time as well as their other production work.

We ended up going with an L10 instead of a C10 woofer. The L10 saves about 3/4" of vertical space, and that matters when you're trying to build the shortest box possible. I'm happy with how it turned out. The vinyl texture matches the OEM vinyl, and the silver accents tie in great with the rest of the interior. "It really ties the room together!" as The Dude would say.

Seats out, finishing up the amp install & wiring.


The D2 500.1 under the driver's seat.


Some pics of the box while they were finishing it up.













And the finished product.











Yeah, it's pretty sweet. They did a much better job than I ever could have! It's audio artwork, a fusion of vision & execution. Worth it. I also need to give credit to Chris Pate for nearly all of the pictures, thanks again Chris!


----------



## SPAZ (Jan 7, 2009)

Wow nice work!


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Man, that looks fantastic! Blends into the interior really nicely.

How is the box secured to the vehicle? And not that you'd be taking it in and out a lot, but is it relatively easy to remove?

Okay, don't think that I'm being a hater here, but...

While the design is really, really cool, it looks as if they wasted A LOT of MDF with that interior box design & cross-bracing scheme, and also lost A LOT of interior air volume.  I'd assume this a sealed enclosure? I'm not sure I would want to closely-encircle/surround the back of the subwoofer in the MDF rings like that either, even if there are gaps or spaces between the rings. I'd imagine it's probably a non-issue though.

If the internal structure of the enclosure was a design element that was going to be on display, I could definitely understand the reasoning for the interior design & construction, but IMO it seems a bit unnecessary and wasteful in achieving the final result... in addition to being more time-consuming to build, i.e. more material AND labor $$$.

I realize that the outer perimeter is a complex shape, but that should have been easily achieved with a more traditional top & bottom plate/baffle design, without wasting so much sheet material and losing so much internal airspace.

I would think that they might have even fit TWO L10 subs in the same overall exterior space...one placed in each far Left & Right corner for better boundary-loading, which results in more output+less distortion with the same amount of power, while still maintaining the nice, flowing exterior design.

And it's probably just my personal OCD, but I also like to minimize any bright or shiny bits that create distracting reflections in the window glass.

Sorry, I don't mean to be a d!ck and poo poo on their design decisions or work (it is definitely top-notch quality!), but some of the fabrication & design work I see sometimes has me scratching my head.

It really does look fantastic and I'd be stoked as well. Ultimately, all that matters is that it sounds great and that you're happy with it, so I'll just STFU now.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

bbfoto said:


> Man, that looks fantastic! Blends into the interior really nicely.
> 
> How is the box secured to the vehicle? And not that you'd be taking it in and out a lot, but is it relatively easy to remove?


There are some strap points underneath it. It's easy to get out if I want to. It also fits exactly into the curvature of the back, so it can't bounce up & down at all even if it wanted to. There's a little ledge back there that it backs up into. 



> Okay, don't think that I'm being a hater here, but...
> 
> While the design is really, really cool, it looks as if they wasted A LOT of MDF with that interior box design & cross-bracing scheme, and also lost A LOT of interior air volume.  I'd assume this a sealed enclosure? I'm not sure I would want to closely-encircle/surround the back of the subwoofer in the MDF rings like that either, even if there are gaps or spaces between the rings. I'd imagine it's probably a non-issue though.
> 
> If the internal structure of the enclosure was a design element that was going to be on display, I could definitely understand the reasoning for the interior design & construction, but IMO it seems a bit unnecessary and wasteful in achieving the final result... in addition to being more time-consuming to build, i.e. more material AND labor $$$.


It was all cut on a CNC. I'm not sure how much extra labor it took, but the wood was going to be used anyway. I didn't actually talk to Chris about why he designed it the way he did, but I do know the internal volume is calculated exactly in the CAD software. It is a sealed box.



> I would think that they might have even fit TWO L10 subs in the same overall exterior space...one placed in each far Left & Right corner for better boundary-loading, which results in more output+less distortion with the same amount of power, while still maintaining the nice, flowing exterior design.


Yeah, I asked him to build a box for one sub, and keep it as shallow as could. Told him he could have the entire length & width of the back parcel shelf. So the limiter to the design was really the height of the sub + thickness of the wood, plus whatever gapping he needed from bottom of the sub to the enclosure.



> And it's probably just my personal OCD, but I also like to minimize any bright or shiny bits that create distracting reflections in the window glass.


You can't see them at all when you're driving the car (no reflections that I've noticed, may have something to do with the dark window tint), and the silver matches exactly with the interior trim on the dash & doors. It's one of my favorite design pieces, honestly.


----------



## broncoupe (Jun 16, 2016)

Great right up 
got me excited to do my own car a 2015 RHD Carrera
The only problem I have if you could give me some pointers 
I have noise on the RCAs 
I basically looked at the wiring diagram cut the cables and soldered on RCA plugs
But I have noise 
used 2 stinger ground loop isolators which helped a lot but didn't totally kill the noise 
cheers


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

I made a wiring harness. Went from the connector directly to RCAs, so it sounds like I did exactly what you did. Do you have the SPP system as well (not Bose)?

If so, I’m not sure. You may have a wire routing or shielding issue - see if you route the power in the other side of the seat well, maybe that will help?


----------



## broncoupe (Jun 16, 2016)

The base system so the same just the Ask amp
Because RHD it was easier to feed the power cable directly to the battery
The earth is to the earth point under the seat 
Power and earth cables same diameter
I must admit I was very surprised to hear any interference
I did read some where that the head unit output is not a signal and ground in the old sense, but that they share the signal over both cables to reduce noise 
Not in my case
Maybe someone can shed some light on this 
Sounds good though so it is still a win


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

I used 4ga power and ground, if I remember correctly.
I did use the power in the footwell, not the battery directly.


----------



## broncoupe (Jun 16, 2016)

will post what I find 
So basically you have no noise even at minimum volume


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

Not that I can hear... but I’m old and have listened to loud music for several decades...

The guys at Mobile Toys seemed impressed though, and I know Chris has good ears.


----------



## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

Beautiful work, and beautiful car. I love the details on the sub box.


----------



## broncoupe (Jun 16, 2016)

To help others
so a recap i have noise on the RCAs 
i tried everthing moving grounds ground cable matches power cable even tried earthing PCM to amp piont including cutting factory earth cable
Nothing still bloody noise on RCAs 
Used Stinger ground loop isolators 80% reduction in noise tried grounding isolators no differance 
Now a break through of sorts
Even with ground loop isolator plugged in only to the amp signal RCAs disconnected I still had noise moving the ground loop isolator I could increase and decrease the noise so moved until no noise 
Now reconnected the RCAs no noise 
So I would say original issue maybe with factory PCM internally but I have been able to get silence


----------



## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Thank You for posting this! I’m having a tiny bit of noise as well through the RCAs, and we are working on figuring it out - mine may be similar, so this is very helpful. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## broncoupe (Jun 16, 2016)

let me know how yours turned out 
Because my car is RHD i had to take power direct from battery have also now turned the amp round so RCA terminals are nearest centre console 
there is a lot of wiring on that sill and also a crash sensor


----------



## broncoupe (Jun 16, 2016)

What an obvious mistake I made 
With all the reading I did I assumed the signal from the PCM was a low line signal 
In the Uk we take this as an RCA signal so soldering the RCAs on just seemed to confirm this 
In fact once I removed the PCM you can see the outputs are infact low level in power but speaker lines because of there location in the Quadlock plug
one press 1 button on the Mosconi low level high level button 
NO NOISE silence 
Hope sharing my stupidity helps others


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

The PCM configuration must be different in the UK than in the US! Now that you mention it, the base in the US is the "sound package plus" kit, and I do think in Europe there is a spec below that...

Glad you figured it out.


----------



## Tbone310 (Sep 8, 2013)

AAAple said:


> Do you have any idea what the Musicar guys are doing for a crossover?


I asked them that question and they said they do not cap those tweeters. I used a 10uF.


----------



## ejeffrey (Oct 8, 2015)

Just saw this build... love the car! Tons of really cool details in here with the 3D printer and the wiring with the factory harness. Those Dyns are great sounding speakers, too. I also like the design on the sub box and how it really compliments the interior.

This is probably the last kick I need to start learning CAD with some online tutorials. There's a few things on my current build that would be cool to do with 3D printing. Thanks for sharing your work!


----------



## accdealer (May 4, 2020)

great write up and thanks for posting the 3-d drawings, i used then to make the rings and tweeter mountings. i have a bunch of questions:

1. did you notice a drastic improvement when you put the es430’s in? do you think it was worth essentially 30x as much money as the daytons?

2. was the mw172 worth the upgrade from the focals? again, from a dollars and cents point of view.

3. the sub box, you mentioned it was done on a cnc, do you think they would replicate it if i wanted to buy one and at what cost?


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

> 1. did you notice a drastic improvement when you put the es430’s in? do you think it was worth essentially 30x as much money as the daytons?


I never tried tuning the Daytons. Once it was tuned, yeah... really large difference. But untuned Daytons to tuned Esotars? Eh not at lowish volumes really.



> 2. was the mw172 worth the upgrade from the focals? again, from a dollars and cents point of view.


Yes, I think so. I was not impressed with the focals. Very, very shallow and short throw depth.



> 3. the sub box, you mentioned it was done on a cnc, do you think they would replicate it if i wanted to buy one and at what cost?


You'd have to ask the guys at Mobile Toys. I'd imagine they still have the drawings.


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

I should add, if I was doing this again, I'd try to skip the sub. The car is so noisy that you lose the low frequency content in the road noise very quickly unless you're at ear-damaging SPL levels.
I'd use an amp with a bridgeable 3rd/4th channel for the 8" woofers, and I'd delete the rear speakers. Do the tweeters & the mids, and get great 8" woofers. Tune to taste.
Don't get me wrong, I love my setup, but it's overkill and probably a waste of money for very little upside when you're driving.


----------



## accdealer (May 4, 2020)

thanks for the response. yeah, i pretty much have decided that i won’t do the sub. i think the risk reward isn’t there. 

one more question, i don’t have my burmester grilles yet, what was the reasoning for sinking the tweeter into the mount? is there no clearance once the grill is on if you surface mount the tweeter?


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

accdealer said:


> thanks for the response. yeah, i pretty much have decided that i won’t do the sub. i think the risk reward isn’t there.
> 
> one more question, i don’t have my burmester grilles yet, what was the reasoning for sinking the tweeter into the mount? is there no clearance once the grill is on if you surface mount the tweeter?


The sub + amp install basically cost me the same as the rest of the install as well. It was pricey. The box was expensive.

I sunk it in just to make sure the clearance was correct. I wasn't sure how much there was with the grill installed so I went conservative.


----------



## accdealer (May 4, 2020)

thanks again for the reply, appreciate the info. i cheaped out on the 8’s and went with the caw938’s. went with the daytons because your rings are made for them, but i might swap them in the future. got some down and dirty morel tweets, figuring for the price, how bad can they be, mdt112 or something like that. again, if they’re total ****, i’ll get something else, but at 36/each, i have to try them before shelling out a few hundred. should have it in this week. 

i’m not trying to build a monster system, those days are behind me. i was in the business 28 years ago for a long time and can count on one hand how many systems i’ve built in the last 20 years. but i got a 991tt and somebody did a hack job on it, so here i am trying to piece the stereo back together with something that sounds reasonably ok.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

WOW!!! I just ran across your build log. Excellent job. You gave me some ideas for my Macan S. I'm currently looking for a mid-bass solution for the front door 8" midbass. Thanks for the feedback on the Focals. They were on my list. Of course the MW172's are as well. They are just shallow enough to fit. What do you have powering yours? The Helix V Eight?

Ge0


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

i have a NIB pair of mw172, pm if interested


----------



## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

Ge0 said:


> WOW!!! I just ran across your build log. Excellent job. You gave me some ideas for my Macan S. I'm currently looking for a mid-bass solution for the front door 8" midbass. Thanks for the feedback on the Focals. They were on my list. Of course the MW172's are as well. They are just shallow enough to fit. What do you have powering yours? The Helix V Eight?


There are a lot of people running the Morel MW-9 in these doors as well.
I have a Helix V Eight powering the tweeters, door mids and woofers. There's a Mosconi D2 500 pushing the sub.
I think if I was going to do this again, I'd skip the sub and do this with an amp with bridgeable channels for the 8".
Remove the center channel and rears. MD-102 tweeters, Esotar 430 and MW-172 or Morel MW-9 in the doors pushed with something like a JL VX800/8i with bridgeable channels for the 8" would be an ideal daily setup for these cars.
I like the sub, but the low frequencies get drowned out quickly by road noise and it really did blow up the cost of the build.

ps: I bought my speakers from Porsche (guy above), he's super solid...


----------



## accdealer (May 4, 2020)

got my build done last night and i have to say everything worked out nicely, especially with your 3d printed adapters. i’m actually shocked at how good the cheap dayton mids sound with the cheap morel md12 tweeters i got. however, now that the build is done and i’m more familiar with what i can and can’t fit in the doors, i think i’m going to yank the cheapies and put my focal 100krs set in there instead. question is, how hard would it be for you to change the dimensions on your adapter to fit the focal mid? i can get the tweeter into your adapter no problem. naturally, i’d pay you for your time.

as footnote, no offense to Porsche, the caw938’s perform extremely well given the price. they did need a little break in period and definitely need some power to get them going. ended up bridging the sub channels and running them in parallel to get them going. have them crossed over at 120hz, but now that they’re mono, i want to get them a little lower. i don’t think the daytons like 100hz, which is part of the reason why i want to put my focal set in.


----------



## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

accdealer said:


> got my build done last night and i have to say everything worked out nicely, especially with your 3d printed adapters. i’m actually shocked at how good the cheap dayton mids sound with the cheap morel md12 tweeters i got. however, now that the build is done and i’m more familiar with what i can and can’t fit in the doors, i think i’m going to yank the cheapies and put my focal 100krs set in there instead. question is, how hard would it be for you to change the dimensions on your adapter to fit the focal mid? i can get the tweeter into your adapter no problem. naturally, i’d pay you for your time.
> 
> as footnote, no offense to Porsche, the caw938’s perform extremely well given the price. they did need a little break in period and definitely need some power to get them going. ended up bridging the sub channels and running them in parallel to get them going. have them crossed over at 120hz, but now that they’re mono, i want to get them a little lower. i don’t think the daytons like 100hz, which is part of the reason why i want to put my focal set in.


You're running your midbass mono? Please elaborate your latest cross-over points.

Ge0


----------



## accdealer (May 4, 2020)

i’m using them as subs, current xover point is 120hz. target xover point is 90-100hz


----------



## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

broncoupe said:


> What an obvious mistake I made
> With all the reading I did I assumed the signal from the PCM was a low line signal
> In the Uk we take this as an RCA signal so soldering the RCAs on just seemed to confirm this
> In fact once I removed the PCM you can see the outputs are infact low level in power but speaker lines because of there location in the Quadlock plug
> ...


Yeah so I looked into this, you need a differential input on the low level mode, mosconi only has it on the high level. So you're left with either no gain, or lots of noise. Have a look at my thread on it.


----------



## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

flgfish said:


> I should add, if I was doing this again, I'd try to skip the sub. The car is so noisy that you lose the low frequency content in the road noise very quickly unless you're at ear-damaging SPL levels.
> I'd use an amp with a bridgeable 3rd/4th channel for the 8" woofers, and I'd delete the rear speakers. Do the tweeters & the mids, and get great 8" woofers. Tune to taste.
> Don't get me wrong, I love my setup, but it's overkill and probably a waste of money for very little upside when you're driving.


The new audiofrog 8" dual 2 ohm drivers would work well here, you could run them two channels off a 8 Chan amp and get say 260w into them. You'll want liberal amounts of deadening on the doors tho.


----------

