# Ribbit Ribbit MDX :) Audio Frog SQ build with review, with Arc, Mosconi and Illusion



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

New car audio brands, especially high end ones, are pretty rare these days...maybe its the shrinking market, maybe its the fact that most business people just want to make a quick profit versus truly delivering a fantastic product; regardless, it seems that a lot of the new names I gander at CES (not pre-established overseas brands that are making an entry into the US) are of the low rent, vaguely (or blatantly) copy cat variety from China. 

So imagine by surprise and delight when long time industry friend Andy Wehmeyer told me about his new venture, a high end car audio brand called Audio Frog. My respect for Andy and his expertise instantly gave credibility to the brand, a credibility that was further reinforced when i found that Gary Biggs was also part of it...Gary is someone who has built cars that i have long stared at, someone i have no hopes of ever coming close to matching in the field and someone i respect a huge amount...since talking about it in detail at the 2014 CES, i have eagerly awaited the physical product arrival.

Despite all the faith i have in guys like Andy and Gary, to me, in the end, only one thing matters: the actual performance of the products themselves. So when Andy asked if i would be interested in trying out an pre/early production set and give him my impression, i jumped on the chance. The only thing was to find the right vehicle for the job as we are always prebooked with existing product selections.

In the end, it didnt take long, a good friend of mine, who has had three previous cars done by me, just purchased a brand new Acura MDX...after a quick look at the car and some discussions, it was decided that this vehicle would be my foray into the Audio Frog brand.

To be honest, one of the biggest reasons i wanted to do AF in a car like the MDX is that i know integrating with the oem system to produce a great sounding car has some challenges. With its datalink amp volume control, you have to tap the signal AFTER the stock amp, and that is often less ideal and requires more work than going with an aftermarket system or tapping a oem system pre-amp. I figured, if i can get the AF set to sound good in this car, it would absolutely excel in any environment.

so...lets get started with the goals:

1. achieve a nice level of SQ utilizing the top of the line AudioFrog three way set

2. locate midrange and tweeter onto the A pillars but still try to maintain a low key appearance.

3. Build a completely stealth set up in the back that takes up no room above the trunk floor, so basically, everything had to be located in the stock storage bin.

so...lets get to the log.

First up, a quick shot at the metal fuse holder bracket that Jesse made for underhood, it houses a single stinger 0 ga dual midi fuseholder:










to make this happen, Jesse installed two rivetnuts into the metal side panel, and then fabricated a metal plate that bolts to those rivet nuts and had threaded holes for the fuse holder to bolt down into it:



















moving onto the signal source, which of course remains completely stock, the only change was a mosconi RCD-Mini DSP controller custom mounted in the ashtray area. This gives the customer master volume, subwoofer volume, and preset changing on the flay. framing the controller is a little trim panel that has been flocked black to match the finish in the oem tray:



















a few quick build pics of this piece, first here is the factory tray and the controller side by side:










the controller mounting wasnt hard, the side of the astray was cut out a bit, allowing the controller to sit on a piece of 1/8" mdf and then the bolts supplied with the controller bolts through the bottom of the tray and into the threaded holes of the controller, and secures it tightly.

i then fabricated a small mounting plate out of 1/4" mdf, put it in, and backfilled the edges with duraglass:










when that cured, i took it out of the car and sanded it down, applied a little more filler at various areas until the shape is what i desired:










i then test fitted one last time in the car:










and then i flocked it with black nylon fibers, let it cure, and press fitted it into the tray:










moving onto the front stage, which consists of the Audiofrong GB60 midbass, the GB25 2.5" midrange, and the GB10 small tweeter. the GB60 went into the stock lower door location.

Lets take a quick look at the GB60. it is quite a beefy little driver, with what looks like a surround capable of supporting very good excursion. but what really impresses me is the awesome build quality of the product. the fit and finish, the design and just the overall end result ooozes quality. Two set screw terminals eliminate the need for spade connectors, though i would recommend tinning the wire leads before inserting them as the set screw is not huge. its a shame such a beautiful driver will be completely hidden, but anyway, here you go 




























so first, jesse applied a bunch of blackhole tiles on the outter door to help with resonance:



















some CLD damper went around the factory speaker mounting location, new speaker wires were run into the door, and a honda/acura spacer ring was bolted in place, it is then sealed inside and out with butyl rope:



















then, the rest of the door received full coverage with focal BAM XXXL composite damper:










and the GB60 secured in place:



















the outter door skin also received ample attention from STP CLD damper:










the same treatment went onto the passenger side:























































moving onto the A pillar for the GB25 and GB10...lets first take a look at the finished product. after consulting with Andy on aiming, the GB25 midrange was aimed 90 degress off axis at each other, while the GB10 tweeter was tilted back aiming at the opposite listener. this helped produce an A pillar that was not too obtrusive and Andy told me they would perform well in this orientation.

What i REALLY love is the chromed accent rings around the speakers, normally, to achieve this look a ton of fabrication would be required, but thanks to the unique design of these speakers (more on them below), it was very straightforward. the metal rings matches well with all the shiny accents in the car. the pillars were finished in highgrade german vinyl:























































some close in shots of the Audio Frogs:























































and three quick pics of the entire front end:


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

now lets take a look at these drivers, first, here they are in their mounting hardware:










and here is a exploded view of the mounting hardware, pay special close attention to the midrange mounting solution:










so the midrange mounting has four actual parts, ALL made out of metal. a main baffle, an under plate that goes below the baffle with threaded holes for the speaker to bolt into, a metal ring that can be installed at various heights (allowing for the thickness of vinyl), and a press fit metal grille that you wrap a rubber gasket ring around to form a tight, yet soft seal










and here are the raw pics of the drivers themselves, the same high quality look found on the GB60 is also present on them...the GB25 is unlike any automotive midrange i have seen before, it actually looks like a mini subwoofer  feast your eyes out:




























onto the build pics...now the coolest thing about the design of the midrange mounting is that the ring baffle is designed to be molded into the pillar versus sitting ontop of a fabricated baffle, so here they are along with rings for the tweeter, aimed and secured to the factory pillar:










then i forgot to take a pic but you guys know what came next, mold cloth was pulled, resin applied, allowed to cure, and reinforced from the inside via a filler/resin mixture. after that it was all abou filler, sanding, more filler and more sanding, until the shape is what i wanted them to be:










a close up shot of the midrange mounting baffle, you see that little ledge that is right on the outter top perimeter? that is where you tuck the vinyl into...this is truly a design after an installers heart!:










then, i wrapped the pillars in vinyl, note what i said before about having the vinyl go into that little ledge and trimmed:



















next, those beautiful accent rings presses onto the pillar, sandwiching the vinyl in that ledge/groove, and then four supplied hex bolts secure them to the main baffle, depending on the thickness of the material you use (or no material at all, you can slide the rings on their tabs and secure them at various heights. very cool:










next, the GB25 was wired up and bolted in:



















and the same goes for the GB10:










and here are the finished pillars ready go be mounted back in the vehicle:





































so thats it for the front stage, next come wiring pics...i made up some "braided look" rca cables using primary wire to tap into the factory signal at the front main amplifier and the rear subwoofer:



















and jesse ran then back, ziptied to the factory loom every few inches:





































moving onto the back, which as mentioned before, is to be totally stealth and hidden. i can take up the room in the stock storage bin, but nothing else.

so here is the normal view, with his pet protector in place, as you can see, complete stock:










this is the stock storage bin area i talked about:











open that up and its pretty simply, a single cover with an opening for an illusion audio C10, chosen for its shallow depth and small enclosure requirement. nothing else visible:




























pull off the top cover and you see the dsp and amps. a mosconi 6to8DSP controls the entire system, an Arc Audio Xdiv2 1200.6 powers the sub with 600 watts, and sends 150 watts a piece to the GB25 and GB10, while a 600.4 is bridged powering the GB60s with 300 watts a piece. the small footprint of the XdiV2s, combined with their abundance in power, made them a nice choice for this project:




























onto the build process of this back, which is actually pretty simple, first, a piece of MDF was bolted down onto the metal via rivet nuts, this gives the enclosure/amp rack a steady and flat surface to mount to. note the two locating holes on either side, and a centered threaded insert...and also notice that all the tools for the spar tire are in a foam bin at the front, more on this later:










then, a subbox was fabricated that is about .5 cubic foot, wtih a taller section on the left, and a flatter section on the right, so that the subs and amps, when mounted sits at the same height:










the box was then wrapped in black carpet and the illusion C10 installed:










this is the top cover before and after carpeting:


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

now, while its great that everything hidden in the storage tray, it wouldnt be very good if the customer cannot access the spare tire or the tools for it when an emergency strikes. so i came up with a system for that, and to access both takes just a single phillips screw driver and about 2 minutes.

so here is the process:

1. open the tray:










2. remove top cover:










3. note that there is notch cut around the spare tire lowering mechanism:










4. and a bolt hidden in the middle of the tray, this secures the entire structure to the threaded insert on the foundational board, while two dowels slide into those locating holes to properly align and locate the structure. simply take a screw driver and unbolt this:










5. and then remove the factory carpet walls of the tray, which has already been trimmed for easily removal:










6. and just lift the entire structure out of the hole and sit it on the ledge, now you can access all the tools and just put the box back into its place and lower the spare


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

*so thats it for the build log. lets do the review!*


As mentioned at the top of this log, one of the reasons i chose this car to do the AudioFrog build is due to its less than ideal signal source...a speaker set that can be made to sound good in this environment speaks volumes to me.

so, just how bad is the signal coming out of the stock amp? well, check this picture out. this is pink noise played on the headunit, and the analysis of the three channels i used for signal, the midbass, the front high freq, and the sub.

note that none of them seem to be really crossed over much, the sub extends well into the higher frequencies, while the highs channel does the same in the opposite direction, while the midrange, seems to be ALMOST a full range signal with a strange dip below 500hz...interesting indeed:










so after a lot of time using the Mosconi DSP's summing and input EQ, i ended up with a signal that looks like this, not terrible, but far from ideal:










with the signal source figured out, i set the xovers with instructions from Andy. the xover points are: 70, 300 and 3500, all with 24db linkwitz filters. 

what i usually like to do this point is to just fire it up and start listening for a short while. to me, a system without any eq will give me a rough idea on the natural characteristics of the front stage, and will also tell me just how much work will be required to make it sound right. I always prefer a speaker system that sounds decent like this, not crazy problems. 

To me delight, the AF set was really good in this regard, sure the balance tonally was all off, but there wasnt anything that screamed out to me...a great start.

then i ran through all my time alignment, and did some time on the RTA via pink noise...and once again, my initial impressions was true. these speakers did not look too bad at all on the rta, and i manage to smoothout the response very quickly, infact, maybe among the quickest in a three way system.

then i jumped back in the car and did more tuning by ear.

here are my impressions:

Words that immediately come to mind about the Audiofrog set are: Smooth, Natural, Open, Airy, Well Behaved, and Robust.

Midbass: perhaps the weakest point of the factory signal is in the midbass region, with that dip below 500hz. but the GB60 did a great job at producing the signal between 70 and 300hz range. There may be more speakers that have slightly more snap, but this thing just seem so controlled. it had effortless extension, very good impact, and blended superbly with both the bass and the midrange. it handled high volume music with a shrug...so think of it as a midbass that has muscle, but yet can do the delicate stuff just as well.

Midrange: the GB25, despite its tiny size, easily went down to the 300hz cutoff with no distortion, even when pushed on some songs, they dont seem to struggle. the resolution is superb and again, the whole presentation is super smooth. to be honest, as much as i dislike harsh tweeters, a harsh midrange is probably just as bad for me...i hate it when it seems like certain singlers, especially slightly lower female vocals, seem to SHOUT at me for no reason, but these did do that at all. 

Highs: the GB10 picks up where the GB25 leaves out seamlessly. To be honest, i was worried that this would be a pretty hot tweeter, but honestly, its just like some of my favorite high end tweeters out there, such as the seas lotus reference or the morel supremo piccolo, its just effortlessly smooth but not loosing any detail at the same time. super super balanced.

now there is one thing i like to do which may seem kinda odd. after tuning, i like to jack up the gains on the midrange and the tweeter to see at what point, they become unbearably harsh. this is so i know what i have left to work with if the customers listening taste is brighter than my own...which admittedly, is on the laid back side.

this is where i had the biggest revelation about the AF set. as i started turning up the gains on the dsp, i kept on waiting for the threshold where the upper frequencies go from just bright to downright painful. using the intro part of Eagles hotel california live recording as a marker. the initial claps of the crowed can quickly sound like someones slapping your ear drums as you turn the gains. But soon enough, the beeps on the computer told me i had reached the maximum threshold on the gain adjustment on those channels, a full 8 db above where i had set them initially...and i still reach that point of crazy harshness! i listened to it time and again, and yes, it was blaring, and yes, it was completely overwhelming the midbass and unbalanced, but it wasnt painful, it was just really really loud. I dont believe i have experienced this sensation too many times, with the morel elate and supremo drivers coming closest. Bravo!

Despite having no dash mat and the angles of the pillar pods, the center image is dead on and well focused. the car has a center channel grille so it is very easy to see if the center is well behaved...and literally, song after song, the center sounds like its coming right front the center spekaer grille, despite the speaker itself not hooked up at all. i think with a dash mat, the image can be even better focused.

stage height is about 6 inches above the dash with very little rainbowing, depth is right at the edge of the windshield, and width is just inside of each pillar.

using the same demo disc i have been using for years:

1. hotel california: just really open and airy...if i close my eyes, i can easily imagine being in a big stadium or concert hall. this is again, despite a crappy signal source. when the big drum notes hit, the C10 blended really well with the front. some credit goes to the c10 of course for its smooth bass reproduction, but also it shows that the GB60 can produce that impact with authority. i listend to this track a few times with the sub completely off, and you can hear the AF driver extend down effortlessly from its 70hz xover point. no distortion or break ups.

2. The best is yet to come - Michael buble: the vocals are really natural with the right amount tonal balance, and the snaps are crisp with very nice echo effect after each snap. when the orchestra hits, again, the well behaved nature of the midrange and highs come through, even at high volumes, its loud but never offensive.

3. The way you make me feel - Michael Jaskson: the intro drum beats was really nice and powerful, with nice full bodied feel against indicative of how wellt he midbass works with the sub. when MJ starts singing, a lot of speakers can get quite harsh, or too dull if you have the highs muted too much, but this one seemed to be just right for me, i can really crank it and they remain smooth and balanced.

4. keith dont go - Nils Lofgren: three things i listen for in this, the reverb of the guitar evertime he stops plucking, the details of the string plugs themselves, and nils voice. the reverb is nice and natural, trailing off each time to the point that you can hear them all the way until the next pluck...the highs are again, really detailed yet never harsh. but his voice really impressed...it has that right crisp feeling to it but doesnt make him sound too low or too high like a boy, just again, i hate sounding like a broken record, well behaved.

5. Simple - Collective Soul: i love this rock song, starts with a strange out of phase intro, and at the 30 second mark, all the drums and guitars comes at once. which the AF set did with aplomb...but when the vocals came in, they really shined...on some systems, when you turn it up to a certain volume, the singer can sound like hes ripping his throat out and it becomes raspy and unpleasant, but they didnt suffer that issue here, his voice remained natural and controlled.

6. Axel F - Harold Faltermeyer: the instantly recognizable tune is just silk with the AF, its fully bodied, has that top frequency yet not even close to sounding harsh or piercing, when the drum beats start, they definitely have that snap like they should. these midbasses arent in your face type of beasts, but just provides the right amount of impact with seemingly very little effort.

7. Eyes on Fire - Blue Foundation: far from a SQ track, this is just a cool dubstep song i like. the vocals are recorded really harsh, to the point that in most cars, i just want the bass to come on to balance it out. it is still very hot in this car, but less piercing than most, like i dont feel like there is that ringing sensation in my ear. this big suv, with a single 10 buried in the back, is no bass monster, so when the big notes came, i mostly listened to see if i can sense any breakup in the midbass...and again, i couldnt tell any. 

so thats my short review.

the thing that i am most impressed with is just how well these speakers behave, especially int he midrange and the highs. nothing seems to throw them out of sync to produce unpleasant harshness. and keeping mind that this isnt result of a bunch of additional tuning and infact, i may have spent less time tuning this than many other 3 way sets we have done. Like the seas and morel that i love, these are also great at making you feel like you are in a larger environment than a car's interior, with things sounding big and airy always. 

I am honestly sold on them 100 percent...and you can expect to see many more them from us in the future.

now, maybe lets talk about some shortcomings of the set so you dont think i am being paid by AF or something haha

1. maybe some people are not keen on the Audio Frog name, and i initially was one of them. but honestly, for us, WE are the brand that we push, so the customers have full confidence in us and what ever we recommend. in addition, you have to admit that a name like Audio Frog wont get lost in a sea of brand names in the industry 

2. The grilles over the drivers are very untraditional looking. some have remarked they look like sink drains or strainers. it may be one of those you love it or hate it things. but i know for one despite their more restrictive look, they dont detract from the sound at all. and i know that the drivers were voiced with the grilles in place.

3. the set screws on the speaker mounting holes could be bigger. on the tweeter especially, the screws are microscopic, and while they do give you a similarly microscopic allen wrench to tighten it, i am always fearful of stripping it or loosing the wrench. also, having such a small screw means that its best to tin the wire ends on the speaker wires and then inserting them into the holes. I was able to wire up all three speakers with no problems. and i think Andy may have mentioned that some changes are coming in the true production models.

4. the baffles are quite large. as you can see on the 2.5" midrange, the baffle itself is the size of a lot of 4" drivers. they do have a system in place so you can use just the ring and the grille into a fabricated baffle, but if i wanted to use that nice curved baffle that the speaker came with, it does require some room.

5. tonally, there is very very little to fault with them, as evident by my review. Comparing with my favorite speaker line up currently, the morel elate 603, they compare very well, with the midrange able to go a little lower and similar smooth and airy highs, perhaps the AF is even better at walking that balanced line of detailed yet smooth. But in this car, i do think the morel MW6 has a bit more snap and impact to them than the AF, i dont know how much it has to do with the factory signal on this thing, and i will reserve my judgement until i get to play wtih a set of GB60s in a more ideal signal source environment. 

So in the end, my advice to you is this...if you are in the market for a high end speaker set, Audio Frog should definitely be on your mind. The GB series is among the best i have ever sampled and the fact that its from a brand new company is quite impressive. 

I hate to hype anything, and again, i dont want you guys to think these are some how miles and miles better than other speakers in their price range, other speakers from brands like Morel, Focal, HAT, Dyn all produce awesome awesome speakers that rival the AF set.

what i find most pleasing about the Audiofrogs is its balance...i think there are speakers as mentioned, that may do one thing in particular stronger than the AF, however, i think it will be very hard to come up with anything that rivals them from an overall standpoint.

So there you go, i know some of you have been asking me about them ever since we showed them at our last meet, and i am very happy that i finally can give them an initial review. 

Cheers,

Bing


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

SWEET!!!!!!!!!!


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)




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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

That is an incredibly simple and beautiful install and a great review...MANY thanks for putting time into writing it up. I ESPECIALLY like the Mosconi controller in the ashtray!!

A question, can you post the mounting dimensions for the 3 AF drivers that you used??


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

Got a question? How come you made a wood ring for the tweeters and use the metal factory rings for the mids?

Josh


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## sunshinefc3s (Jun 23, 2010)

JoshHefnerX said:


> Got a question? How come you made a wood ring for the tweeters and use the metal factory rings for the mids?
> 
> Josh


haha. that's the first thing I saw too. The grey of the tweet mounting jumps out to me. 

BUT...its easy to armchair. AMAZING build and about damn time we get some AF details.
-a


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

JoshHefnerX said:


> Got a question? How come you made a wood ring for the tweeters and use the metal factory rings for the mids?
> 
> Josh


the mid had that channel to allow for vinyl tucking, i could be wrong, but i dont believe the tweeter had the same allowance for the vinyl to tuck in between the grey outter cup and the tweeter itself 

look at this pic:









see the channel right on the inside opening of the mid grille to tuck the vinyl into:

and then see this pic:









see how the tweeter sits just completely flush with the grey mounting cup, leaving no room to tuck vinyl into.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

I've browsed those beautiful pics and fully intend to give this a full read at work... The sick people will just have to wait


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## Dodslobber (Jan 3, 2013)

I'm really glad to hear that AF is a success in your opinion. I had no doubt it would be considering who is behind the company. Sadly I'll never hear these most likely. They are well above my price range, due to my personal priorities, not because they are over priced.

Beautiful install as always, and great write-up.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Awesome. Thanks Bing.

BTW, I sometimes use the 6" grilles as colanders when i need to wash veggies.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

They're also good for trapping frogs.


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

simplicityinsound said:


> the mid had that channel to allow for vinyl tucking, i could be wrong, but i dont believe the tweeter had the same allowance for the vinyl to tuck in between the grey outter cup and the tweeter itself


I follow what you're saying, but I guess my questions would have been better asked as why not make a wood ring for the mid. The rings on those mids look nice but they're huge compared to the speaker themselves. Maybe could have been a bit smaller...?

Don't take it as a slight, just curiosity. I think you guys do awesome work.

Josh


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

JoshHefnerX said:


> I follow what you're saying, but I guess my questions would have been better asked as why not make a wood ring for the mid. The rings on those mids look nice but they're huge compared to the speaker themselves. Maybe could have been a bit smaller...?
> 
> Don't take it as a slight, just curiosity. I think you guys do awesome work.
> 
> Josh




i get what you are saying, i guess i really wanted to try this new idea on molding the supplied baffle in on this car


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## JoshHefnerX (Jun 13, 2008)

You pulled it off because it looks great. Did you rough up that surface to make the filler/resin stick?

Josh


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## SilkySlim (Oct 24, 2012)

Thanks bing those look great!!! Great review!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

JoshHefnerX said:


> You pulled it off because it looks great. Did you rough up that surface to make the filler/resin stick?
> 
> Josh


i took a DA sander with rough grit to it, once the paint is off, the filler stuck to the metal like a champ.


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## upgrayedd (Apr 19, 2011)

Beautiful install. That is one of very few pillar installs that i like. I think the grills actually help that. IMO, they look OEM


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

gregerst22 said:


> Nice writeup bing! I'll admit when i saw the title I was a bit excited to read a review on the AF speakers and didn't pay a lot of attention to the install.
> It sounds like they didn't disappoint. Question is, How much better will they sound in a vehicle that has a clean pre-amp signal..


Hopefully thats coming soon


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

What will be price on these speakers ? Or to early for that?


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)

optimaprime said:


> What will be price on these speakers ? Or to early for that?


Check out crutchfield.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Great review, and those speakers look beautiful. I guess the subwoofer is not available in even a prototype version yet?


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## ron_c1 (Apr 8, 2008)

miniSQ said:


> Great review, and those speakers look beautiful. I guess the subwoofer is not available in even a prototype version yet?


The sub was available - but did not fit based on the design requirements.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

ron_c1 said:


> The sub was available - but did not fit based on the design requirements.


Comon u dont need the cargo.space


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Another beautiful stealth build, guys.
Thanks for the detailed review of the Frogs. Very well done.


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## Rs roms (Jul 12, 2012)

I am curiously waiting for AF drivers to come out and can't wait to try them. Beautiful work done by Bing which these AF deserved and a awesome review which got my excitement levels very high.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

The install looks great. As was mentioned, with the supplied grills they look almost OEM. 

So, now the big question... When is the next get together where the rest of us can get some ears on?


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

As for the install - just no need to further say WOW, I"m speechless, unbelievable... because it is always like this with SIS installs. 

But the Audiofrog speaker set is simply SEXY!!!! I'm drooling 


And as well seeing Andy involved always make a read better and better.

I'm not sure if I missed it as there is a lot of read to go on this thread but is there a link to see this set? prices? 

Eye candy!

OK - found their website easily - just speechless!

After further viewing this thread I now understand that Andy himself is standing behind the name Audiofrog, after reading a lot of his writing over here - impressive!


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

FWIW, I agree that the aluminum grille rings are big. The intent with the grille kits was to provide a really cool platform for custom installers (and DIYers) to do all kinds of stuff. 

The big rings are aluminum so you can cut them down to size and use them in custom builds instead of making wooden rings. The chrome ring is intended to finish off the inside edge of whatever custom install you do and provide a straightforward way to attach a grille. They're also designed so that the speaker loads from the FRONT of the panel. 

There are some diagrams of how these parts can be assembled in the owner's manual, but there are so many different ways to use these things that there's no way to illustrate all of them in the manual. Plus, no one reads manuals anyway. 

Gary is working on some videos that show how these can be used and those will be up on the website when he finishes them. 

For some installations (like a small mid in the top of the door or a 4" in the door of a late model BMW), the grille kits can be used without the giant ring so that the only thing that shows from the front of the panel is the chrome ring and the grille. The grilles can be painted to match the interior and we provide two sets of replacement rub-off logos that can be applied after they are painted. There's one set for dark grilles and one set to be used if you paint the grilles a lighter color.


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Hi Andy, 

I hope I am not hijacking the thread but I have a question about AF - in specific the GB15 

Just like bing wrote about him self, I am really not a big fan of tweeters, it takes some EQ and XO work for me to get them the way I want them to sound while when I take a wide bander and just let it go it sounds better to me with so much less effort on spending all that required on a third element in a speaker set - much much easier. 

But sometimes indeed they lack that high end a tweeter would be best for.

So when I've first seen Audison's Violino which is a 2inch tweeter I had a feeling it would be much more of a mid-tweeter due to the diameter and really it is my favorite up so far - only issue, they do not make them anymore. 

And now I've noticed the GB15 and it really caught my eye.

So to the question - what really are the differences between the GB10 to the GB15? 

Is it only in the ability to go lower or should the GB15 have as well a more gentile, should I say mild high end? 

Does the GB15 has a specific use? does it fit better a 2way set while the GB10 would be recommended on a 3way set? 

That is a really interesting element not to mention the entire product line.

Any plans for user friendly horns which are not in the width of the entire glove compartment by any chance? :blush:

Oh Oh and one more - As for the xover points between the midbass and mid beeing steep on the mid section I understand that you don't want the mid to go any lower than 300hz

But why not use a shallow slope on the woofer higher end? Cutting the woofer at 300hz but with a shallow slope and it should still not be beaming no? asking in the soul purpose of learning.

Andy - I've been reading much of your material and still have so much to go, really an honor!

Thanks, 

Eddie

P.S - Currently I am using CDT ES-02s in a small sealed (very small) enclosure cut at 1.2Khz up to 20Khz direct dead on-axis.


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## SilkySlim (Oct 24, 2012)

Major kudos for the rings and mounting design!!!!!!  love it. They look great too!!

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

eddieg said:


> Just like bing wrote about him self, I am really not a big fan of tweeters, it takes some EQ and XO work for me to get them the way I want them to sound while when I take a wide bander and just let it go it sounds better to me with so much less effort on spending all that required on a third element in a speaker set - much much easier. .


quick note, i like tweeters  i meant i dont like tweets that require a lot of tuning to sound natural


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Yes, I know just did not explain my self too well, I like tweeters too but only those who are soft and warm to our ears.

After having both l3se and the cdt I've decided to go midtweeter and that is it. Until I find a tweeter that id really like and the GB15 got my attention.

As well up so far Andy's explanations about speaker beaming speaks logic to me and it makes AF automatically an interesting brand!

Thanks!


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## CoLd_FuSiOn (Jun 25, 2012)

Amazing review,another fantastic install and was eagerly awaiting someone's word on them.Am a big fan and admirer of the person behind the install and the person behind the speakers.

Best of luck to Audio Frog and would love to listen to them one day.Two thumbs up 

p.s I'm pretty sure they'd sound even more epic paired up with a great source.


Cheers...


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

eddieg said:


> Hi Andy,
> 
> I hope I am not hijacking the thread but I have a question about AF - in specific the GB15
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how to describe the sound using prose. The GB15 is designed to be used in a 2-way with the 6" because it can play a little lower than the GB10. Both tweeters are soft domes and both include a copper ring on the polepiece which reduces distortion and both include ferrofluid in the gap which helps to cool the coil and also adds some damping to reduce the Q. Besides reducing distortion, the copper ring also reduces inductance, so even the 1.5" dome has flat response out to 20k.

In a 3-way, you don't need a tweeter that plays so low, because the mid still has wide dispersion at the crossover. If you just want to use a big tweeter in a 3-way, that's fine too. 

The GB25 will go down to 200 Hz, no problem, and that's how we power test them--to 200Hz with shaped noise that has an average level of 100 watts and peaks of 300 watts. that test is 100 hours long. 

I prefer steep slopes in cars because the speakers are NEVER mounted on a flat baffle. Home speaker design is NOT the same as mounting speakers in cars. passive crossover networks for home speakers are designed for a specific orientation on a specific baffle. In that case, the overlap at the crossover can be easily predicted. Having two speakers play the same thing makes the phase relationship between them important for the acoustic sum. In cars, the shapes are irregular, the baffles aren't flat, and so on and so forth. In addition, most car audio EQs aren't very powerful (31 band graphic is a nice drawing tool, but not great for fixing real acoustic issues). because of that, I like steeper slopes to minimize the band of frequencies where the drivers interact. Makes tuning easier and protects the speakers from power at lower frequencies. 

I don't like the tweeterless thing because I find that the images are tiny, very precise and there's a reduced sense of space that comes from the reflections at high frequencies. High frequency reflections are pleasant for most listeners. It's reflection in the midrange that cause problems in cars and in the bass in homes. If you like IASCA cars, then tweeterless will probably get you some points. I don't really like the IASCA tune. I like it when the space sounds believable, and for that reason, I prefer multichannel, rear speakers and tweeters.


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## sunshinefc3s (Jun 23, 2010)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> I'm not sure how to describe the sound using prose. The GB15 is designed to be used in a 2-way with the 6" because it can play a little lower than the GB10. Both tweeters are soft domes and both include a copper ring on the polepiece which reduces distortion and both include ferrofluid in the gap which helps to cool the coil and also adds some damping to reduce the Q. Besides reducing distortion, the copper ring also reduces inductance, so even the 1.5" dome has flat response out to 20k.
> 
> In a 3-way, you don't need a tweeter that plays so low, because the mid still has wide dispersion at the crossover. If you just want to use a big tweeter in a 3-way, that's fine too.
> 
> ...


These are the kinds of posts that earn customers! Great work Andy and Bing!


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

hmmm... the boss AW said multichannel, rear speakers and tweeters! (said other good stuff too)


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Hi Andy,

So it is just the lower end, I see.

I am using the wide banders on axis due to narrow beam and to avoid as much reflections as well placed the as far away as I could from glass and will soon work on a wave guide.

I guess that if a mid works wide then no point aiming and reflections would be anyway.

For me steeper slopes seemed to bring a cleaner output but less dynamics and depth so there is a tradeoff.

Indeed I have a well focused stage but a bit narrow, can get those seven sticks at the edges to be wide enough, time to add tweeters I guess.

Adding rears is on the road map and a center too.

Any general directions and advice would be welcomed

Andy, Bing

Thanks!

Eddie


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

The seven sticks will NEVER appear far outside the speakers. A guitar recorded in only the left channel will appear at the left speaker location or maybe a few inches outside. It IS possible to render the space around the instruments (think about the stage in a concert hall) larger than the car. 

Look at it this way. The image is the placement of the musicians. the stage is the space in which the musicians perform. The rest of the room extends to the sides and to the rear. That space can be made to seem larger than the car. The image will be confined to the space between the speakers.

With no tweeter, only the on-axis sound will include high frequencies. Everything below that will be dispersed also into the reflected field. You hear the sum of the direct and reflected sound, but the direct sound mostly determines the image. With no tweeter, you'll probably need to boost the treble for a natural sound.

Check out "Sound Reproduction" by Dr. Floyd Toole. His book explains much of this in greater detail and it's not so hard to read.


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## tbomb (Nov 28, 2007)

I like the grills. Kinda reminds me of Bang&Olufsen


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## chasintrane (Jul 29, 2012)

This thread is full of win! Thanks Andy and Bing!


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The seven sticks will NEVER appear far outside the speakers. A guitar recorded in only the left channel will appear at the left speaker location or maybe a few inches outside. It IS possible to render the space around the instruments (think about the stage in a concert hall) larger than the car.
> 
> Look at it this way. The image is the placement of the musicians. the stage is the space in which the musicians perform. The rest of the room extends to the sides and to the rear. That space can be made to seem larger than the car. The image will be confined to the space between the speakers.
> 
> ...


Andy, 

thanks a lot! especially for being tolerant. 

Well in my case the speakers would be mounted on a flat buffle - I will just try all possible options to get best results. 

As for what you've mentioned about the seven sticks it now gives me a better idea on what it is I am looking for and the speaker placement but this is as far as I go hijacking this wonderful install! 

Eddie


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## iasca judge (Jan 5, 2010)

Great install as always guys. Looks great


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## foreman (Apr 18, 2007)

I like the grill myself as they give the appearance of a stock speaker, but not in a cheap way. Giving you stealthy look and maintaining a pleasing aesthetic.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bing, when you say you used a Honda/Acura spacer for the door speakers, were these not fabricated by you?

Curious if there is a high quality spacer that can be bought off the shelf for Hondas/Acuras.


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

rain27 said:


> Bing, when you say you used a Honda/Acura spacer for the door speakers, were these not fabricated by you?


Good catch.
I'm so used to SiS fabbing them out of MDF and spraying with bedliner, I didn't notice that this one appears to be plastic.

It looks just like the Best Kits or American International ones. I have no experience with them, though, so hopefully Bing and the team will chime in with what they used, and how satisfied they are with it.


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## Serieus (May 27, 2011)

i actually contacted bing about these speaker adapters awhile back since i noticed they use it in all the honda builds - they use the bestkits ones. i picked up a set and they're quite nice, but on my car (2013 fit) i had to put some foam in between the adapters and the sheet metal as there was a bit of a gap at the bottom. fits well, though, and sure made it easy!


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## strong*I*bumpin (Oct 3, 2005)

Serieus said:


> i actually contacted bing about these speaker adapters awhile back since i noticed they use it in all the honda builds - they use the bestkits ones. i picked up a set and they're quite nice, but on my car (2013 fit) i had to put some foam in between the adapters and the sheet metal as there was a bit of a gap at the bottom. fits well, though, and sure made it easy!


I have a Honda as well and this got to be the weirdest(dumbest) opening for a speaker I ever saw.Would like to know the depth of the best kits.The OEM speaker/bracket depth is 1'' according to my tape measure.


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## Serieus (May 27, 2011)

strong*I*bumpin said:


> I have a Honda as well and this got to be the weirdest(dumbest) opening for a speaker I ever saw.Would like to know the depth of the best kits.The OEM speaker/bracket depth is 1'' according to my tape measure.


it's similar in depth but i don't think it's exactly the same, at least not with a speaker mounted on top of them since from the factory, the speaker is built into that weird crap. i never thought to measure it, though...


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Yeah on most newer hondas and acuras i use the platic adapter because it can hook and bolt to the car without having to drille more holes in the door panel. .these and certain new chevys r the main ones i do this with for the same reason


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## strong*I*bumpin (Oct 3, 2005)

Thanks for your input serieus & Bing.I wanted to try some Silver Flutes I had lying around from when they 1st came out (man I thought I sold them ).I would need to do 1" in depth to get these suckers in b/c they're are beastly drivers but also taking into account excursion.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the info on the speaker adapters...much rather do this.


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## chalankanoa (Jan 18, 2009)

is there a link to these Honda speaker adapters?


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Www.metraonline.com and enter ur car and if they accept the adapter it should pop up


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## nstaln (Feb 11, 2009)

Beautiful build.

Can anyone tell me what the mounting diameter is for the black grill insert for the 2.5inch mid? Not the grey metal ring or the chrome trim ring, just the grill insert itself. Thank you!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

being that we are doing another car with them right now, i can tell you the black grille is a hair over 3.25" maybe a 16th over at the most. maybe a 32nd.


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## nstaln (Feb 11, 2009)

simplicityinsound said:


> being that we are doing another car with them right now, i can tell you the black grille is a hair over 3.25" maybe a 16th over at the most. maybe a 32nd.


Excellent. Thank you!


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## jgarcia1925 (Oct 29, 2014)

wow... im just amazed every time i find a vehicle made by you guys, this has been my inspiration to bring back my true love for audio. cant wait to bring the system in my 2013 gti to life. my lord this would be a dream come true to have these skills later on.


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## jgarcia1925 (Oct 29, 2014)

im wondering if these speakers will fit my gti. they look fantastic.


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