# Eric Stevens MB8 2 ohm or 4 ohm??



## Nocturnal Thunder

So I'm about ready to buy some Stevens Audio CompNeo full size HCLD and his MB8 midbass in a week (waiting for payday) and I see he has the MB8 in 2 ohm or 4 ohm. They will both be powered with a Digital Designs SS4b amplifier that puts out 350 watts at 2 ohms and 250 watts at 4 ohms. Is there a noticeable difference between the 2 ohm and 4 ohm ones? If I remember correctly, his MB8 runs on 225 watts RMS so should I buy the 4 ohm version and feed it 250 watts from my DD amp or should I buy the 2 ohm version and feed it 350 watts RMS. I do listen to heavy metal music super loud and I have blown many 6.5 midbasses from Focal and Alpine, which is why I'm stepping up to 8" midbasses, I'm sick of blowing up 6.5 midbasses because I want to listen to Metallica or Pantera at super high volumes.

So what do you think?? 2 ohm or 4 ohm??

Javier


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## dcfis

Grab the two ohm


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## 420tabbycat

Following


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## Holmz

Do they have specs for sensitivity and power so as to compare the two?
How did the other speakers you had get blown?


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## Nocturnal Thunder

Holmz said:


> Do they have specs for sensitivity and power so as to compare the two?
> How did the other speakers you had get blown?


That's a good question. I had some Hertz midbasses installed in my front doors being powered my my Arc Audio 900.6 and they only lasted 6 months until I blew them up. Then I went to another shop and bought the Focal K2 which were expensive as hell. I blew up 4 pairs of the 6.5" until Focal refused to replace them anymore (they were powered with my Arc Audio KS300.4). I thought maybe the installers sucked, so I went to Speakerworks in Orange and got some Alpine RS69C 6X9 components being powered by my Arc Audio KS300.4 and they only lasted 3 weeks and now the midbasses are blown. Three different shops and all the midbasses could not take my punishment. That is why I'm going to 8" midbasses....6.5" cannot take my brutality. Also, Eric has such an awesome reputation that I figured since I'm buying his horns, why not use his 8" midbass??

I don't think the shops understand how loud I listen to music.. each time after the install they would crank it up and say "listen to how loud these are" and I would cackle in laughter because that is not even close to loud for me, that is normal listening volume. The other thing is that I don't listen to Rap, Hip Hop, or test tones. I listen to thrash metal and death metal where the kick drums are super punchy and at crazy inhuman speeds. Here are three examples of the death metal I listen to:

Fleshgod Apocalypse - The Violation 




Infant Annihilator - Three Bastards 




Nile - Churning the Maelstrom


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## 420tabbycat

_Are you playing the midbass too low? Wait, I don’t see anything about a subwoofer in your setup. Perhaps a subwoofer would handle the bass with more of a stride. _


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## dcfis

So what you are really saying is you need some JBL 2206 in your doors


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## Nocturnal Thunder

420tabbycat said:


> _Are you playing the midbass too low? Wait, I don’t see anything about a subwoofer in your setup. Perhaps a subwoofer would handle the bass with more of a stride. _


I have 2 Digital Design 10" 9500 supercharged subwoofers with ESP being powered by a Digital Designs M4b amplifier. Those subs can handle anything I throw at it like nothing. The midbasses are just to fill out the midbass...they don't need to play below 70 or 80Hz. They just need to fill in the gaps between the subs and the horns. Most of the metal music I listen to doesn't go down to 30 or 40Hz that I'm aware of.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

dcfis said:


> So what you are really saying is you need some JBL 2206 in your doors


There is no way in hell I can fit 12" speaker in my front doors. The stock speakers for my Dodge Charger SXT is a 6X9 and getting an 8" speaker is going to be tough. I just don't see any way that I would be able to fit in any larger speakers than an 8" speaker.


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## 420tabbycat

I just had a long thread on this called “humor me” consider crossing the midbass drivers higher and keep em around for more than 5 minutes.


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## 420tabbycat

Humor me, Dayton HF 8” Free air in my front doors.


Most of the forum regulars are probably aware of my big “fiberglass baffle on my front door” boner currently. I’m generally under the impression that the midbass drivers don’t really need to go below ~80hz. Recently a member wrote about his midbasses playing really low ported and achieving a...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## Holmz

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> That's a good question. I had some Hertz midbasses installed in my front doors being powered my my Arc Audio 900.6 and they only lasted 6 months until I blew them up. Then I went to another shop and bought the Focal K2 which were expensive as hell. I blew up 4 pairs of the 6.5" until Focal refused to replace them anymore (they were powered with my Arc Audio KS300.4). I thought maybe the installers sucked, so I went to Speakerworks in Orange and got some Alpine RS69C 6X9 components being powered by my Arc Audio KS300.4 and they only lasted 3 weeks and now the midbasses are blown. Three different shops and all the midbasses could not take my punishment. That is why I'm going to 8" midbasses....6.5" cannot take my brutality. Also, Eric has such an awesome reputation that I figured since I'm buying his horns, why not use his 8" midbass??
> 
> I don't think the shops understand how loud I listen to music.. each time after the install they would crank it up and say "listen to how loud these are" and I would cackle in laughter because that is not even close to loud for me, that is normal listening volume. The other thing is that I don't listen to Rap, Hip Hop, or test tones. I listen to thrash metal and death metal where the kick drums are super punchy and at crazy inhuman speeds. Here are three examples of the death metal I listen to:


I am not even going to play the death metal.

Were the speakers ripped, or burnt up?

Mid bass maybe is a higher frequency than low bass?
So...
You probably want them tuned higher than 80-Hz and with a steep slope.
It does not matter what reputation of the manufacturer is if they are over powered and playing at a frequency below what's they are capable of.

If you are going to do that, then maybe get the 4-ohm as it would be slightly harder to overpower them?


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## Nocturnal Thunder

420tabbycat said:


> I just had a long thread on this called “humor me” consider crossing the midbass drivers higher and keep em around for more than 5 minutes.


I will consider that. I figured crossing them at 70 or 80Hz at 24db would be fine but maybe I do need to go higher. I'll need to ask Eric what frequency I should cross them at. I figured a 24db slope would be good but we'll see what he thinks since those are his speakers that he designed.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

420tabbycat said:


> Humor me, Dayton HF 8” Free air in my front doors.
> 
> 
> Most of the forum regulars are probably aware of my big “fiberglass baffle on my front door” boner currently. I’m generally under the impression that the midbass drivers don’t really need to go below ~80hz. Recently a member wrote about his midbasses playing really low ported and achieving a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.diymobileaudio.com


I'll start reading the thread...thanks dude!!!


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## Holmz

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> I will consider that. I figured crossing them at 70 or 80Hz at 24db would be fine but maybe I do need to go higher. I'll need to ask Eric what frequency I should cross them at. I figured a 24db slope would be good but we'll see what he thinks since those are his speakers that he designed.


Maybe start at 140 Hz and work down to 110-Hz.
And SPL were the blown ones pushing?


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## 420tabbycat

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> I'll start reading the thread...thanks dude!!!


You’ll notice that the first posts are about how big peoples midbass drivers d:cks are and how low they hang, but nothing about what is being achieved in doing so. Then it gets into what is actually needed and why. 🍻


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## Nocturnal Thunder

Holmz said:


> I am not even going to play the death metal.
> 
> Were the speakers ripped, or burnt up?
> 
> Mid bass maybe is a higher frequency than low bass?
> So...
> You probably want them tuned higher than 80-Hz and with a steep slope.
> It does not matter what reputation of the manufacturer is if they are over powered and playing at a frequency below what's they are capable of.
> 
> If you are going to do that, then maybe get the 4-ohm as it would be slightly harder to overpower them?


That's cool...death metal is not everyone's cup of tea so I understand.

They were not ripped just burnt up...I could smell them when they blew up...they have that speaker burnt smell that I'm unfortunately too familiar with.

I'm considering tuning them higher, but I'll consult Eric to see what frequency I should tune them to. As far as the slope, I figured 24db would be steep enough but I'll need to check that out. My Audison bit One can go as high at 48db slope so maybe I will need a steeper slope. I'll also check with Eric about that one.

I can understand if they were being over powered or playing a frequency below what they are capable of but my Arc Audio amps weren't producing so much power that they were destroying the speakers, they were slightly above RMS but way below peak power. As far as frequency, I had them around 70Hz to 80Hz so I might need to consider having them higher.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

Holmz said:


> Maybe start at 140 Hz and work down to 110-Hz.
> And SPL were the blown ones pushing?


Sounds good. I don't know about the SPL, I'm not a competition dude so I didn't measure them. I just love my metal music incredibly loud.


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## 420tabbycat

You have dsp correct? Are you tuning to a normal realistic listening curve? Or is the throttle cracked on the mid basses.


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## ckirocz28

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> I have 2 Digital Design 10" 9500 supercharged subwoofers with ESP being powered by a Digital Designs M4b amplifier. Those subs can handle anything I throw at it like nothing. The midbasses are just to fill out the midbass...they don't need to play below 70 or 80Hz. They just need to fill in the gaps between the subs and the horns. Most of the metal music I listen to doesn't go down to 30 or 40Hz that I'm aware of.


Metal music has lots of sub 40 hz content.


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## 420tabbycat

Silly question but are you sure you’re not clipping the midbass amp


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## 420tabbycat

Machine gun posts but we might have you walking away from this thread with some 6-7” pro sound woofers highpassed at ~125hz sub at ~90.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

420tabbycat said:


> You have dsp correct? Are you tuning to a normal realistic listening curve? Or is the throttle cracked on the mid basses.


Not sure...I'm not knowledgeable enough to tune my car so I have always had the shops do the tuning since I don't know jack s**t about tuning. Yes I have dsp, I have an Audison bit One.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

ckirocz28 said:


> Metal music has lots of sub 40 hz content.


Really?? I never noticed on the metal music I listen to. If there are bass drops (like 808 bombs) then I can see that but I've never noticed sub bass on my music, just rap stuff which I don't listen to. The lowest I've heard is the kick drum sound off Metallica's ...And Justice for All. That kick drum seems to have a 50Hz low end along with the clicky mid which gives it a distinctive choo choo sound.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

420tabbycat said:


> Silly question but are you sure you’re not clipping the midbass amp


Nope...that I'm sure of. All the shops have also thought about that but it seems the midbass amps were not clipping.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

420tabbycat said:


> Machine gun posts but we might have you walking away from this thread with some 6-7” pro sound woofers highpassed at ~125hz sub at ~90.


At this point, I'm open to anything so I can stop blowing up my midbasses. I know for sure I cannot blow up my subs and I highly, highly doubt I'll blow up Eric's HCLD so I just need to figure out my midbass situation. I am willing to try the Stevens Audio MB8 but if I blow those up too, then I will consider a pro sound woofer. However, after all the carnage I have caused to various midbasses, I will NEVER use 6.5" speakers ever the hell again. I'm definitely going to use 8" speakers. 

Just looking at 6.5" speakers give me the heebie jeebies.


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## Holmz

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> ...
> They were not ripped just burnt up...I could smell them when they blew up...they have that speaker burnt smell that I'm unfortunately too familiar with.
> ...
> I can understand if they were being over powered or playing a frequency below what they are capable of but my Arc Audio amps weren't producing so much power that they were destroying the speakers, ...
> ...


Usually overpowered is associated with speakers stinking.
When one has multiple pairs of speakers burnt up, it is safe to say that they've all been overpowered.




Nocturnal Thunder said:


> At this point, I'm open to anything so I can stop blowing up my midbasses. I know for sure I cannot blow up my...


Alro'ighty then... here are some things to be open too:


lower volum levels
less power
higher (ohm) impedence speakers.
higher cross over frequency
steeper cross over slopes


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## dcfis

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> At this point, I'm open to anything so I can stop blowing up my midbasses. I know for sure I cannot blow up my subs and I highly, highly doubt I'll blow up Eric's HCLD so I just need to figure out my midbass situation. I am willing to try the Stevens Audio MB8 but if I blow those up too, then I will consider a pro sound woofer. However, after all the carnage I have caused to various midbasses, I will NEVER use 6.5" speakers ever the hell again. I'm definitely going to use 8" speakers.
> 
> Just looking at 6.5" speakers give me the heebie jeebies.


Don't be silly. There is a common denominator here with absolutely no thought given that might be the cause.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

Holmz said:


> Usually overpowered is associated with speakers stinking.
> When one has multiple pairs of speakers burnt up, it is safe to say that they've all been overpowered.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alro'ighty then... here are some things to be open too:
> 
> 
> lower volum levels
> less power
> higher (ohm) impedence speakers.
> higher cross over frequency
> steeper cross over slopes


I'll consider the fact they may have been overpowered. So for instance, the Focal Ks 2 ES165K2 I had had a rating of 100 watts RMS with peak power at 200 watts. My Arc Audio put out 175 watts at 2 ohms so maybe there is something there.

things to be open too:
1. lower volume level - F*CK NO!!! I listen to my music super loud. Period. No exceptions whatsoever. Period.
2. lower power level - sounds legit. If I get the MB8 at 4 ohms, my DD amp puts out 250 watts at 4 ohms and 350 watts at 2 ohms and the MB8 can take 225 RMS so that sounds good.
3. higher impedance speakers - since Eric makes speakers at 2 and 4 ohm resistance, I could see myself getting the 4 ohm impedance so that sounds good.
4. higher cross over frequency - sounds legit. I may set up the frequency to 100Hz to 140Hz instead of 70Hz to 80Hz.
5. steeper crossover slopes - sounds legit. I can go higher that 24dB with my bit One. I might consider setting it at 36dB or even up to 48dB.

Thanks for the considerations.!!


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## Nocturnal Thunder

dcfis said:


> Don't be silly. There is a common denominator here with absolutely no thought given that might be the cause.


I can't help it, I have blown so many 6.5" speakers that I would rather go bigger to an 8" speaker. I don't trust 6.5" midbasses anymore...I have a speaker graveyard of 6.5" speakers.


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## ckirocz28

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> Really?? I never noticed on the metal music I listen to. If there are bass drops (like 808 bombs) then I can see that but I've never noticed sub bass on my music, just rap stuff which I don't listen to. The lowest I've heard is the kick drum sound off Metallica's ...And Justice for All. That kick drum seems to have a 50Hz low end along with the clicky mid which gives it a distinctive choo choo sound.


Yeah, it comes mostly from the kick drum and the bass guitar.


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## ckirocz28

Holmz said:


> Usually overpowered is associated with speakers stinking.
> When one has multiple pairs of speakers burnt up, it is safe to say that they've all been overpowered.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alro'ighty then... here are some things to be open too:
> 
> 
> lower volum levels
> less power
> higher (ohm) impedence speakers.
> higher cross over frequency
> steeper cross over slopes


12 inch midbasses in the form of shallow mount 12 inch subwoofers?


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## Nocturnal Thunder

ckirocz28 said:


> Yeah, it comes mostly from the kick drum and the bass guitar.


Interesting...most bass guitar is not that prominent in death metal compared to regular hard rock. As far as the kicks, they don't seem to have crazy impact because they seem to be mixed with more mids to get the definition out of the speed of the double kicks. Most double kick drums hit anywhere from 270 bpm up to 320 bpm...it just sounds so crazy fast it's almost inhuman. I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen the drummers pull off this crazy speed live.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

ckirocz28 said:


> 12 inch midbasses in the form of shallow mount 12 inch subwoofers?


I really don't know how I would be able to fit them in my doors...the 8 will be a challenge as it is. Here is a picture of a dodge charger door without the panels. I'm not sure how I could fit them in my door.


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## ckirocz28

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> I really don't know how I would be able to fit them in my doors...the 8 will be a challenge as it is. Here is a picture of a dodge charger door without the panels. I'm not sure how I could fit them in my door.
> 
> View attachment 285754


Custom door panels.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

ckirocz28 said:


> Custom door panels.


I'm just having a problem visualizing 12" speakers in my doors. I have 10" subs so seeing 12" speakers in my doors just seems impossible. I am having a problem with having speakers in my doors bigger than my subs. I'm still going to lean towards 8" speakers. I also can't imagine the cost of custom door panels...they must be $1000 a piece and that is just too much for me. I may work at Amazon but I'm not Jeff Bezos.


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## Holmz

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> I can't help it, I have blown so many 6.5" speakers that I would rather go bigger to an 8" speaker. I don't trust 6.5" midbasses anymore...I have a speaker graveyard of 6.5" speakers.


If you are looking for pro audio levels of SPL, and at a low frequency, then I think you are expecting more than most MB drivers are designed for...

Maybe you also need a bigger sub woofer, and cross it over higher?


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## The Italian

You started out this thread with this statement. The thing that stands out about this is that you asked if you should feed the speakers 250 or 350 watts while mentioning that the drivers are rated for 225 watts. You also mentioned max vs. RMS somewhere. I think you should run your music as loud as you want but I suggest that you look for drivers that can handle much more power than what your amps put out and only consider RMS. I would leave max power out of your vocabulary given your previous experiences. Just something to consider.

**I realize that this goes against general principles but given the OP's issues, I doubt he'll ever be underpowering his speakers **



Nocturnal Thunder said:


> They will both be powered with a Digital Designs SS4b amplifier that puts out 350 watts at 2 ohms and 250 watts at 4 ohms. Is there a noticeable difference between the 2 ohm and 4 ohm ones? If I remember correctly, his MB8 runs on 225 watts RMS so should I buy the 4 ohm version and feed it 250 watts from my DD amp or should I buy the 2 ohm version and feed it 350 watts RMS.


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## The Italian

This is what I'm referring to. 



Nocturnal Thunder said:


> ... They were slightly above RMS but way below peak power...


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## The Italian

How much have you spent already? A single long term solution has to be preferable to continuing to spend money trying new drivers over and over. 



Nocturnal Thunder said:


> ... I also can't imagine the cost of custom door panels...they must be $1000 a piece and that is just too much for me. I may work at Amazon but I'm not Jeff Bezos.


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## The Italian

And one last thing. I know nothing about your amp (I'm not going to scroll back because it doesn't change the point) but there was a time when some manufacturers would underrate their amps. A lot of old school guys like me understand this and take that into consideration when selecting drivers.


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## 420tabbycat

Pink Noise, White Noise and Why Your Tweeters Never Get 150 ...


What’s the difference? I’ve always read and been told that “White noise is equal energy at every frequency and pink noise is equal energy in every oct...




www.audiofrog.com





I think after corresponding with Stevens Audio you should have a better idea. You may be able to run 6-7” and save the fabrication. Even if an 8” is needed a 10 or more just seems absurd. This is a good article by Audio Frog. Basically as frequently is doubled the power required is halved, assuming that your overall response is set up to a normal curve. Going from 70hz to 120hz on the midbass will *seriously* lower the required power and excursion.
The whole point of the thread I linked last night was me desperately trying to not have to install large doors midbass. While I was ready and willing to build in 8” subwoofers, I really didn’t want to. Assuming you’re cooking your midbass drivers, maybe just a simple matter of crossover frequency.
You probably should inquire within the Audio shop about why the specific crossover points were chosen as well. Depending on your system goals there may be a response anomaly in the 100hz+ range. But thinking about it, I don’t think you’re going for a exquisitely centered absolute SQ build, you just want everything to survive ...


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## 420tabbycat

The speaker grill looks like it’s pretty big, bigger than 6” I’m guessing. Doing an 8” might be fairly straight forward with some spacers.


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## jtrosky

However - would installing bigger midbass speakers _really_ solve the problem or would it just result in bigger blown speakers? 

Maybe it's just me, but the type of music that someone listens to really shouldn't cause someone to constantly blow speakers if the system is setup properly, should it (regardless of the speaker size)? If the amp and speaker power levels are matched appropriately and the systems gain structure is setup properly, then it should not matter what type of music the person listens to, right?

I haven't seen any complaints about the amount of midbass provided - just that the midbass speakers are constantly blowing. Installing bigger speakers will probably just result in the same problem (just bigger blown speakers) unless the "root cause" of the issue is identified and corrected. 

It just seems like the type of music, desired volume level and midbass speaker size are being labeled as the "root cause" of the problem even though they really shouldn't be in my mind, especially since he seems to be happy with the midbass output. But maybe I'm wrong - I'm still pretty new at this stuff. Just thinking out loud.

Would it be wise to slow down and concentrate more on matching the speakers to the amp power levels and system tuning before hacking up the door in order to install bigger speakers? It just doesn't seem right that he should be blowing so many speakers just because he likes to listen to metal at loud levels - something else is wrong (in my mind).


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## 420tabbycat

jtrosky said:


> However - would installing bigger midbass speakers _really_ solve the problem or would it just result in bigger blown speakers?
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but the type of music that someone listens to really shouldn't cause someone to constantly blow speakers if the system is setup properly, should it (regardless of the speaker size)? If the amp and speaker power levels are matched appropriately and the systems gain structure is setup properly, then it should not matter what type of music the person listens to, right?
> 
> I haven't seen any complaints about the amount of midbass provided - just that the midbass speakers are constantly blowing. Installing bigger speakers will probably just result in the same problem (just bigger blown speakers) unless the "root cause" of the issue is identified and corrected.
> 
> It just seems like the type of music, desired volume level and midbass speaker size are being labeled as the "root cause" of the problem even though they really shouldn't be in my mind, especially since he seems to be happy with the midbass output. But maybe I'm wrong - I'm still pretty new at this stuff. Just thinking out loud.
> 
> Would it be wise to slow down and concentrate more on matching the speakers to the amp power levels and system tuning before hacking up the door in order to install bigger speakers? It just doesn't seem right that he should be blowing so many speakers just because he likes to listen to metal at loud levels - something else is wrong (in my mind).


I’m wondering if the shop doing the tuning heard heavy metal and tuned for “enhanced” midbass response. I’m in your boat J, I think an appropriately tuned 6-7” should be fine. I also think op’s hearing is blown out and he isn’t hearing the drivers tapping out...


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## dcfis

Was the DD amp in there for the whole time when all the speakers blew? It might do some nasty stuff at the clipping point


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## Fish Chris 2

Holmz said:


> Do they have specs for sensitivity and power so as to compare the two?
> How did the other speakers you had get blown?


Okay, so along these same lines, Holmz or anybody who knows, are mid bass or mid range speakers able to take quite a bit more power than they are rated for (like subwoofers can) as long as they are not sent a clipped signal, and crossed over properly ?

I was looking at my 4 ch amp, and it can actually make 415 RMS into 2 ohms, bridged. They don't list it bridged into 4 ohms, but I'd assume 250'ish ?
I think I'd want at least 10" mid bass drivers, if not 12"s anyway, but just curious.


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## Fish Chris 2

#####


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## Holmz

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Okay, so along these same lines, Holmz or anybody who knows, are mid bass or mid range speakers able to take quite a bit more power than they are rated for (like subwoofers can) as long as they are not sent a clipped signal, and crossed over properly ?
> 
> I was looking at my 4 ch amp, and it can actually make 415 RMS into 2 ohms, bridged. They don't list it bridged into 4 ohms, but I'd assume 250'ish ?
> I think I'd want at least 10" mid bass drivers, if not 12"s anyway, but just curious.


I am no expert on absurd levels of SPL, however the pro audio drivers seem like the area to be looking into.

But If a speaker is rated for a certain power, then having more power seems like it should blow them? Since the OP is consistently blowing them, then something is being overdone.
Having more power available than they are rated for, is different than consistently providing more power than they are rated for.
Going from 100W to 200W is 3dB, and from 100W to 415W is 6dB. One can keep going, but the bottom line is that when the numbers for SPL are 10dB higher than normal, or 15-20dB higher than normal, then the SPL gets absurd, and the wattage gets absurd. And the hearing loss should be happening?

As the volume is last thing that they want to look at reducing, then the options are becoming limited.

I am interested in what Mr Stevens says and recommends, with the history of speakers that have been cooked.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

Holmz said:


> If you are looking for pro audio levels of SPL, and at a low frequency, then I think you are expecting more than most MB drivers are designed for...
> 
> Maybe you also need a bigger sub woofer, and cross it over higher?


My subs are actually great. They hit like a prime Mike Tyson and no matter what volume levels I have thrown at them, they just keep kicking ass and not even breaking a sweat. I'm so happy with my subs that I'm keeping them. For whatever reason, it is the midbasses I keep blowing up. I haven't even blown up a tweeter. What's weird is I have my subs doing the low end, I just want my midbasses to fill in the frequency above the subs so I think I'm going to cross them over higher at this point.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

The Italian said:


> You started out this thread with this statement. The thing that stands out about this is that you asked if you should feed the speakers 250 or 350 watts while mentioning that the drivers are rated for 225 watts. You also mentioned max vs. RMS somewhere. I think you should run your music as loud as you want but I suggest that you look for drivers that can handle much more power than what your amps put out and only consider RMS. I would leave max power out of your vocabulary given your previous experiences. Just something to consider.
> 
> **I realize that this goes against general principles but given the OP's issues, I doubt he'll ever be underpowering his speakers **


Sounds good, I'm only looking at RMS at this point and for the midbasses, I will be looking for ones that can handle more power than what the amps can put out. Thanks.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

The Italian said:


> How much have you spent already? A single long term solution has to be preferable to continuing to spend money trying new drivers over and over.


It's depressing the amount of money I have spent on midbasses, but all the other speakers have held up no problem, so at this point, the midbasses are the only issue I'm having. Everything else has been great and I've been happy with every other component of my system. The single long them solution is to find the right midbass and then I'll be set.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

The Italian said:


> And one last thing. I know nothing about your amp (I'm not going to scroll back because it doesn't change the point) but there was a time when some manufacturers would underrate their amps. A lot of old school guys like me understand this and take that into consideration when selecting drivers.


The only amps I have used for midbasses is my Arc Audio amps. I'll be getting a 4 channel DD amp because I have been so happy with my DD M4b that I'm going to ditch my Arc Audio amps even though I have been happy with them. I'm really satisfied with DD.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

420tabbycat said:


> Pink Noise, White Noise and Why Your Tweeters Never Get 150 ...
> 
> 
> What’s the difference? I’ve always read and been told that “White noise is equal energy at every frequency and pink noise is equal energy in every oct...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.audiofrog.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think after corresponding with Stevens Audio you should have a better idea. You may be able to run 6-7” and save the fabrication. Even if an 8” is needed a 10 or more just seems absurd. This is a good article by Audio Frog. Basically as frequently is doubled the power required is halved, assuming that your overall response is set up to a normal curve. Going from 70hz to 120hz on the midbass will *seriously* lower the required power and excursion.
> The whole point of the thread I linked last night was me desperately trying to not have to install large doors midbass. While I was ready and willing to build in 8” subwoofers, I really didn’t want to. Assuming you’re cooking your midbass drivers, maybe just a simple matter of crossover frequency.
> You probably should inquire within the Audio shop about why the specific crossover points were chosen as well. Depending on your system goals there may be a response anomaly in the 100hz+ range. But thinking about it, I don’t think you’re going for a exquisitely centered absolute SQ build, you just want everything to survive ...


I'm pretty sure I can fit 8" speakers no problem. I just can't believe I need a 10", I'm sure I can use an 8" if I find the right speaker. I'm sure at this point it must be crossover frequency because I haven't ever blown up a tweeter, and I've been feeding them crazy power with not one problem. And you are correct, I'm not going for an exquisitely centered absolute SQ build, I just want the midbasses to survive the onslaught I'm throwing at them. Loud and clean is all I'm going for...I'm just unsure why I keep cooking midbasses but everything else is taking everything I'm throwing at them with not one problem.


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

420tabbycat said:


> View attachment 285756
> 
> 
> The speaker grill looks like it’s pretty big, bigger than 6” I’m guessing. Doing an 8” might be fairly straight forward with some spacers.


That is why I'm sure I can fit an 8" speaker no problem, so that is why I'm stepping up to them from 6.5".


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

jtrosky said:


> However - would installing bigger midbass speakers _really_ solve the problem or would it just result in bigger blown speakers?
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but the type of music that someone listens to really shouldn't cause someone to constantly blow speakers if the system is setup properly, should it (regardless of the speaker size)? If the amp and speaker power levels are matched appropriately and the systems gain structure is setup properly, then it should not matter what type of music the person listens to, right?
> 
> I haven't seen any complaints about the amount of midbass provided - just that the midbass speakers are constantly blowing. Installing bigger speakers will probably just result in the same problem (just bigger blown speakers) unless the "root cause" of the issue is identified and corrected.
> 
> It just seems like the type of music, desired volume level and midbass speaker size are being labeled as the "root cause" of the problem even though they really shouldn't be in my mind, especially since he seems to be happy with the midbass output. But maybe I'm wrong - I'm still pretty new at this stuff. Just thinking out loud.
> 
> Would it be wise to slow down and concentrate more on matching the speakers to the amp power levels and system tuning before hacking up the door in order to install bigger speakers? It just doesn't seem right that he should be blowing so many speakers just because he likes to listen to metal at loud levels - something else is wrong (in my mind).


That's a good question. I can't believe the music I listen to is the problem. The amount of midbass isn't the problem just the speaker surviving. At this point, I'm trying to concentrate on matching the speakers to the amp power levels and I always have pros tuning the system because I am too much of a noob to tune a system...that needs to be left to professionals that know how to tune.


----------



## Holmz

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> My subs are actually great. ...
> .. What's weird is I have my subs doing the low end, I just want my midbasses to fill in the frequency above the subs so I think I'm going to cross them over higher at this point.


Ok... what band are the subs playing in?
What bands were the MB speakers recommended to play in?


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

420tabbycat said:


> I’m wondering if the shop doing the tuning heard heavy metal and tuned for “enhanced” midbass response. I’m in your boat J, I think an appropriately tuned 6-7” should be fine. I also think op’s hearing is blown out and he isn’t hearing the drivers tapping out...


Surprisingly my hearing is good by some miracle. Maybe I have adapted to super loud volumes because I use to be a drummer for thrash metal, death metal, and black metal bands since 1988. I used to tour with the death metal and black metal bands and play at clubs where the volume was loud. Not to mention, my drumset is loud at hell and I've had is since 1994. As for the shops, I'm not sure but I have gone to 3 different shops with the same results.


----------



## 420tabbycat

I’m confident of two things here.

1 You don’t need to run midbass below-125~140 with 24db/octave. The geometry of the head and ears can’t really “tell” in general.

2 You will almost half the power needed to match the rest of the systems response.

Aside from that, is it possible that the midbass is playing louder than needed to match the systems overall response?


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

dcfis said:


> Was the DD amp in there for the whole time when all the speakers blew? It might do some nasty stuff at the clipping point


No, the Arc Audio amps have been. I'm switching to DD when I get the HCLD and new midbass drivers because I'm very happy with DD products.


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

Holmz said:


> Ok... what band are the subs playing in?
> What bands were the MB speakers recommended to play in?


I'm not sure about the subs, I'd have to ask the last shop that set them up. For the midbasses, I think they set it to 80Hz but I'm not sure up to what. They never told me because I never asked, I just told them what music I listen to and what volume level I listen to on a regular basis. Now that I'm going with the HCLD, my guess is I'll have them playing from 100Hz to maybe 1500Hz or 2000Hz and let the horns do their thing above that frequency.


----------



## 420tabbycat

Maybe invest in some cheaper 6-7” With 100w rms, write it off on your taxes as R&D. Crossover them at 140 24db, level match them. Proceed to pound the sh;t out of them. Send me $20 bucks if they survive. Buy the stevens and repeat steps 1-5🍻


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

420tabbycat said:


> I’m confident of two things here.
> 
> 1 You don’t need to run midbass below-125~140 with 24db/octave. The geometry of the head and ears can’t really “tell” in general.
> 
> 2 You will almost half the power needed to match the rest of the systems response.
> 
> Aside from that, is it possible that the midbass is playing louder than needed to match the systems overall response?


I agree with you. At this point, I will never cross the midbasses at 80Hz ever the hell again. Anywhere from 100Hz to 140Hz sounds good to me. The power will always be there if the speakers need it, I don't want to underpower any of my speakers. I'm not sure is the midbass is playing louder than they need to but my subs can hit eye watering volume levels and the horns will be able to hit crazy volume levels too, so I just need to figure out the midbass situation and I'll be ok.


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

420tabbycat said:


> Maybe invest in some cheaper 6-7” With 100w rms, write it off on your taxes as R&D. Crossover them at 140 24db, level match them. Proceed to pound the sh;t out of them. Send me $20 bucks if they survive. Buy the stevens and repeat steps 1-5🍻


LOL


----------



## Holmz

Or maybe invest in an app and see what response the subs are playing?



Nocturnal Thunder said:


> I agree with you. At this point, I will never cross the midbasses at 80Hz ever the hell again. Anywhere from 100Hz to 140Hz sounds good to me. ...
> ...


What do the manufacturerers say about it?
Do they have frequencies that they recommend?


----------



## 420tabbycat

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> LOL


Oh, sell the cheap drivers on Facebook as owned by “mature audio enthusiast“ and lightly used afterwards 🤷🏼‍♂️


----------



## Fish Chris 2

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> My subs are actually great. They hit like a prime Mike Tyson and no matter what volume levels I have thrown at them, they just keep kicking ass and not even breaking a sweat. I'm so happy with my subs that I'm keeping them. For whatever reason, it is the midbasses I keep blowing up. I haven't even blown up a tweeter. What's weird is I have my subs doing the low end, I just want my midbasses to fill in the frequency above the subs so I think I'm going to cross them over higher at this point.


Yes, sub woofer seem to be a different matter when it comes to giving them more power than they are rated for. But then again, with subwoofers, you have the impedance drop thing going on too, so when you might assume your giving a subwoofer 1000 wts, based on the amplifiers ratings, you might actually only be giving it 600 or 700 wts RMS.
My amplifier has been bench tested and shown to put out 2635 wts RMS into 1 ohm, but because of impedance drop and other factors, when I model my sub woofer, I call it 2000 wts.

Anyway, I'm not sure, but I don't think mid bass or mid drivers cause much impedance drop, and therefore, reduced power.


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

Right now, the 8" midbasses I'm considering are the Stevens Audio MB8 at 4 ohms, the Beyma 8G40 at 4 ohms, or the PRV audio 8MB700FT-NDY at 4 ohms. The MB8 has a power handling of 225 watts RMS/450 watts peak, the 8G40 has a power handling of 250 watts RMS/500 watts peak, and the 8MB700FT-NDY has a power handling of 350 watts RMS/700 watts peak. They all have the same sensitivity of 95dB at 1W/1m except for the 8MB700FT-NdY which is at 98dB at 1W/1m. I'm not sure about fs, xmax and all those other terms that get thrown around because I'm not sure what those values really mean. As far as frequency response, the MB8 seems to be 60Hz to 4Khz,, the 8G40 seems to be 65Hz to 6.5Khz, and the 8MB700FT-NDY seems to be 70Hz to 5.6Khz. Since the DD amp puts out 250 watts at 4 ohms, I'll need to do some research to see the best midbass for me. I'll still buy the HCLD on payday but I'm holding off on the midbasses until I can figure out which 8" is going to be the best for me.

Thank you everyone for the help, you have all enlightened me tremendously about the crossover tuning and the slope. Does anyone know of a good place to start where I can research what stuff like fs, xmax, qts, le and stuff like that means. I see these values but I have no clue what they mean. Maybe by knowing what they mean I might be able to pick out the right midbass and avoid damaging any more speakers.

Once again, thanks to everyone, this thread had helped me out tremendously. This is the exact reason why I joined this forum. The education that I'm getting here is valuable.


----------



## Holmz

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> My subs are actually great. They hit like a prime Mike Tyson ...


Looks like you need some help with the literary parts ^there^.

Here you go:


Nocturnal Thunder said:


> My Midbass, playing death metal, bite like a prime Mike Tyson...


----------



## seafish

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Yes, sub woofer seem to be a different matter when it comes to giving them more power than they are rated for....I'm not sure, but I don't think mid bass or mid drivers cause much impedance drop, and therefore, reduced power.


Subwoofers handle more power simply because SIZE (of the voice coil) MATTERS !!!! LOL ... but true.

The larger diameter and length VC allow them to handle more heat and thus more power. Additionally, almost all subwoofers are designed to cool the VC by moving air around it and the substantial Xmax advantage that Subs have over midwoofers also pushes more air... letting the sub run cooler longer.

just my .02


----------



## 420tabbycat

Google t/s parameters.

Fs is the resonance frequency, basically it’s like a guitar string that vibrates freely at a given frequency. 
Xmax is the total amount of cone movement while still being controlled by the magnet. 6mm one way for example means after the cone is pushed to 6mm the magnetic force(bl) has greatly diminished.
Qts has to do with the way the response lowers below fs. .30 likely better for ported, .44 ish better for sealed and.50-70 best for free air, generally speaking. One thing that might stick out is the higher the Fs the higher the sensitivity, generally.


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

420tabbycat said:


> Google t/s parameters.
> 
> Fs is the resonance frequency, basically it’s like a guitar string that vibrates freely at a given frequency.
> Xmax is the total amount of cone movement while still being controlled by the magnet. 6mm one way for example means after the cone is pushed to 6mm the magnetic force(bl) has greatly diminished.
> Qts has to do with the way the response lowers below fs. .30 likely better for ported, .44 ish better for sealed and.50-70 best for free air, generally speaking. One thing that might stick out is the higher the Fs the higher the sensitivity, generally.


Cool, thank you . I'll start researching t/s parameters.


----------



## Holmz

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> Cool, thank you . I'll start researching t/s parameters.


I wouldn't waste the time on t/s parameters unless you are somehow using that learning to make a decision.

This is probably more relevant to your current situation with blown 6.5":








Use your subwoofer to get better midbass


In this video I discuss why I recommend using your subwoofer to improve midbass response. Get your pitchforks ready!... I’m suggesting to run your sub higher than 30hz! :D This isn’t truly a shocking revelation. Plenty of people already do what I suggest. It just goes against intuition and...




www.diymobileaudio.com


----------



## The Italian

@Nocturnal Thunder 

This might help brother


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

The Italian said:


> @Nocturnal Thunder
> 
> This might help brother


Wow!! Cool...thanks very much. Now I can get the value for each speaker, put them into excel and be able to compare the values. Thanks!!!


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

MB88G408MB700FT-NDY-4Le0.358 mH at 10kHz1.3 mH at ?kHz0.266 mH at 1kHzFo57Hz70Hz59.6HzBl7.6 tm12.2 tm11.3 tmQms6.96.833.81Qes0.320.380.24Qts0.30.360.22Sd220 cm²220 cm²249 cm²VAS30.9 L17 L24.97 LMmd15.2 g18.5 g22.45 gXmax11mm6.5 mm3.75mm


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

Time for dinner, but now I can start comparing them to see which one is better. I've already contacted Eric about buying his HCLD and I gave him a link to the thread so maybe we'll get his input on them. 

Thanks everybody!!!


----------



## NW JLUR

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Okay, so along these same lines, Holmz or anybody who knows, are mid bass or mid range speakers able to take quite a bit more power than they are rated for (like subwoofers can) as long as they are not sent a clipped signal, and crossed over properly ?
> 
> I was looking at my 4 ch amp, and it can actually make 415 RMS into 2 ohms, bridged. They don't list it bridged into 4 ohms, but I'd assume 250'ish ?
> I think I'd want at least 10" mid bass drivers, if not 12"s anyway, but just curious.


I’m running a temporary 6.5” midbass driver with recommended 30 watts, 60 watts max on 200 watts. Haven’t blown it in the 4 or so months I’ve been using it. Granted it’s probably not at the level the OP is listening at but they have done fine, get loud, and sound great. I do plan on swapping them out with an MB-6 midbass soon.


----------



## Coolhand20th

Know a couple people now with the PRV's in the 6.5" and 10" range. Both of them have run the 6.5", the 8" and the 10" versions so far and each one was the samething, the more power they have thrown at them the more they like it. I know Parts Express sells them as well in a few different models.









Home


PRV Audio 8MB450-4 v2 8" Pro Audio Midbass Speaker 4 OhmThe 8MB450-4 v2 8" from PRV Audio is a pro audio midbass woofer that offers smooth lower response through a punchy midbass range and the frequency response that takes your applications smoothly through the 7,500 Hz range.The 2" voice coil...




www.parts-express.com













Home


PRV Audio 8MR400-NDY-4 8" Neodymium Midrange Speaker 4 OhmThe 8MR400-NDY-4 offers slim design for narrow and shallow profile installation without sacrificing performance. This professional mid-woofer delivers smooth clear vocals that will impress any listener and the efficiency makes it easy to...




www.parts-express.com













Home


PRV Audio 8MR500-NDY-4 v2 8" Neodymium Pro Midrange Speaker 4 OhmPRV Audio's new 8MR500-NDY-4 v2 8" midrange has everything you want in a mid-range pro audio loudspeaker. Without sacrificing performance, we have designed a shallow and adaptable footprint with a mere 3" of mounting depth. Its...




www.parts-express.com













Home


PRV Audio 8MR600X-4 8" Pro Audio Midrange Speaker 4 OhmPRV Audio's 8MR600X-4 engulfs you with low distortion and stellar sounds in small spaces. Designed to preform, the 2" copper clad aluminum wire is wound in a double layer using a high temperature resin adhesive on a strong polyimide former...




www.parts-express.com





All of those look to be a nice setup from PRV. I am thinking of picking up a set of their 6.5" as well for the price. The last link is 300 RMS and 600 max with a 98DB. PRV really does make a nice solid product and not very expensive overall either.


----------



## dumdum

Fish Chris 2 said:


> Yes, sub woofer seem to be a different matter when it comes to giving them more power than they are rated for. But then again, with subwoofers, you have the impedance drop thing going on too, so when you might assume your giving a subwoofer 1000 wts, based on the amplifiers ratings, you might actually only be giving it 600 or 700 wts RMS.
> My amplifier has been bench tested and shown to put out 2635 wts RMS into 1 ohm, but because of impedance drop and other factors, when I model my sub woofer, I call it 2000 wts.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not sure, but I don't think mid bass or mid drivers cause much impedance drop, and therefore, reduced power.


All speakers have impedence rise... subs don’t all handle more anymore than any other driver

subs ratings are made to match an amplifier power to it, a 2000w sub is made for a 2000w amplifier, it doesn’t mean it can actually take 2k through its coils for days if you ‘allow’ for impedence rise... see home audio drivers for accurate power ratings... drivers in cars are likely rated at five times a non ‘bull****’ number to sell product would have on them 😂

2600watts vs 2000watts is not a lot of extra heat, that’s a reasonable match, especially if set up well, your 2600 watts is likely way less than you think if measured, it is 3db less at 40-80 vs 20-40 even if set up flat... so for most music it’s likely under 500rms most of the time

If you had double the power and turned it up it would likely still see under 1k

the new fad of putting bigger and bigger amps on subs because of ‘impedence rise’ is not a good thing unless you know what you’re doing 👍🏼


----------



## Fish Chris 2

dumdum said:


> All speakers have impedence rise... subs don’t all handle more anymore than any other driver
> 
> subs ratings are made to match an amplifier power to it, a 2000w sub is made for a 2000w amplifier, it doesn’t mean it can actually take 2k through its coils for days if you ‘allow’ for impedence rise... see home audio drivers for accurate power ratings... drivers in cars are likely rated at five times a non ‘bull****’ number to sell product would have on them 😂
> 
> 2600watts vs 2000watts is not a lot of extra heat, that’s a reasonable match, especially if set up well, your 2600 watts is likely way less than you think if measured, it is 3db less at 40-80 vs 20-40 even if set up flat... so for most music it’s likely under 500rms most of the time
> 
> If you had double the power and turned it up it would likely still see under 1k
> 
> the new fad of putting bigger and bigger amps on subs because of ‘impedence rise’ is not a good thing unless you know what you’re doing 👍🏼


Okay well, my subwoofer is actually only rated for 1600 wts RMS, and I have the amp which has been been bench tested at 2635 wts RMS. No problems with the subwoofer whatsoever. Now my passive radiators are a little different story 🙂 lol 
I beat the chit out of that subwoofer too, but I am super critical about not clipping my amp even a tiny bit.... Meaning, not even on the kick drums (for more than the second or two it takes me to back it off) and never on any long continuous notes.
Btw, I've never put the wattage clamp on my system, but I have to believe I'm giving that sub at least 1000 wts continuous, with spikes of around 2 Kwts.
Maybe one day soon, I'll be able to verify that. I'll definitely post my findings here.


----------



## Eric Stevens

The MB8 will be fine with 250 or 350 so either choice will work just fine.Key is keeping distortion to a tolerable level and proper crossover. My suggestion is 70Hz @24 dB LR high pass. 4 ohm would be marginally safer for the speaker if its loud enough to satisfy you need to jam. I am a power junky so will always lean towards more power though.

Only possible issue would be from low supply voltage causing amplfier clipping which can damage the speaker mechanically and thermally.


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

Eric Stevens said:


> The MB8 will be fine with 250 or 350 so either choice will work just fine.Key is keeping distortion to a tolerable level and proper crossover. My suggestion is 70Hz @24 dB LR high pass. 4 ohm would be marginally safer for the speaker if its loud enough to satisfy you need to jam. I am a power junky so will always lean towards more power though.
> 
> Only possible issue would be from low supply voltage causing amplfier clipping which can damage the speaker mechanically and thermally.


Awesome!! I'm a power junkie too so I think I'll try the 2 ohm version so I can crank it up hard!! I'll be contacting you shortly so I can purchase all the stuff. Thanks Eric, I can't wait to blast the living hell out of your speakers with some Metallica!!!

Javier


----------



## ckirocz28

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> I'm just having a problem visualizing 12" speakers in my doors. I have 10" subs so seeing 12" speakers in my doors just seems impossible. I am having a problem with having speakers in my doors bigger than my subs. I'm still going to lean towards 8" speakers. I also can't imagine the cost of custom door panels...they must be $1000 a piece and that is just too much for me. I may work at Amazon but I'm not Jeff Bezos.


Do-it-yourself.


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

ckirocz28 said:


> Do-it-yourself.


No way am I going to attempt to put 12" woofers myself. I've already talked to Eric and I'm going with the MB8 for my doors. They will be able to go into my doors easily.


----------



## 420tabbycat

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> No way am I going to attempt to put 12" woofers myself. I've already talked to Eric and I'm going with the MB8 for my doors. They will be able to go into my doors easily.


I like Eric’s confidence in running 350w or more to each MB8. Should be the end of the blown speakers. 👍


----------



## Nocturnal Thunder

420tabbycat said:


> I like Eric’s confidence in running 350w or more to each MB8. Should be the end of the blown speakers. 👍


Yep. However he is out of the 2 ohm version so I'm going with the 4 ohm version. Either way, I honestly believe my days of blown midbasses are over. I'm crossing my fingers but I feel good about this.


----------



## CrimsonCountry

Curious to see how this turns out. I cant imagine you being dissatisfied with the MB8s. Just make sure to watch for clipping as it sounds like you'll be throwing some power to them (as you should). Eric has been a driving force in HLCDs for decades so why wouldn't his mids be a great match for his horns. IMO, his drivers are a great balance between PA/HE drivers and traditional drivers.

I'm planning to go the same or similar route with the 4 ohm version so I can bridge my 4 channel for about 450w (love "overhead"). That or the 8G40 but I'm leaning towards MB8 to avoid the the extra depth of the Beyma. I've ran the 2118H for a while now with my Mini horns but want more low-end midbass grunt. The 2118s die out under 200hz.

Talking about crazy midbass PA drivers, I've got a set of the 14" JBL 2217s. No idea how I'd install them but i'm considering a crazy 3way in my next truck.


----------



## Holmz

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> Yep. However he is out of the 2 ohm version so I'm going with the 4 ohm version. Either way, I honestly believe my days of blown midbasses are over. I'm crossing my fingers but I feel good about this.


I would suggest making full use of whatever he tells you... both the to do and the not to do.


----------



## sapphari

I've read 2/3rds of this thread and my impression is aligned with others' - the speakers are seeing clipped signal. You can feed a 300W RMS speaker 50 watts of clipped signal and it will burn up the coil, even if your XO point and slope are conservative. BTW, burnt coils do not suggest that the XO point slope is too low or slope too shallow, it indicates too much thermal accumulation in the coil (which can be caused by clipping). 

You need to find the maximum output of the head unit that puts out unclipped signal (never turn it up past that or you'll roast your coils), then dial the gain on the amp to match that voltage. A DD1 is your friend in this situation (you can test clipping from the HU and amp with this). 

Eric's point about voltage drop is also relevant - even if your gains are set correctly, if your electrical system is dropping voltage, that will also create clipping and burn your coils. Test your voltage and consider adding or swapping your battery.

Also just wanted to say, that is awesome that you are uncompromising about turning your music down.


----------



## DeLander

The Italian said:


> @Nocturnal Thunder
> 
> This might help brother


Hi. I have been looking at this site. Thanks for posting it.

But, what do the blue and red lines represent ?


----------



## 420tabbycat

I just realized I have an oscilloscope in my Audio tools app, I’m interested in checking out my amp/headunit. It seems to me that the iPhone speaker should be able to handle accurately picking up a wave, thoughts?


----------



## sapphari

That could work. You should check several frequencies if you can. It's best to use the same source as you use when you listen to music. If that's Spotify though your phone, see if there are test tones (and check the reference level on the tones) in Spotify. Most HU, stock or aftermarket, will start clipping before max output.


----------



## 420tabbycat

What would one need to consider/do knowing the reference level?


----------



## The Italian

DeLander said:


> Hi. I have been looking at this site. Thanks for posting it.
> 
> But, what do the blue and red lines represent ?


I'm not looking at the site right now but I believe what you're referring to are the max SPL (red) and the frequency response (blue). I'm sure others are probably experts on this, which I am not. Just trying to help out.


----------



## sapphari

The reference level is basically the level at which the track (or in this case sign wave) is recorded. A higher reference level is louder. The higher the reference you use to find clipping, the safer you will be. Eg, if you use a -5dB reference to find clipping, this is safer than using a -10dB reference. The reason is because actual songs are recorded and have content across a range of levels (some songs or parts of sounds are louder than others). If the loudest snippet of the loudest song you listen to is -7dB, you would not reach clipping if you used -5dB reference. But you would be well into clipping while listening to this content if you used -10dB reference.

More info to accomplish what you are trying to do is in this manual: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0756/7235/files/DD-1_Owners_Manual_Rev_9.pdf?v=1603402603

The only difference is you will not use the test CD that comes with the DD-1, you will use test tones. And you will not use the DD-1 to measure, you will use your phone's microphone/app.

You can use 0dB reference to find the clipping point of the HU, and I'd suggest trying -10dB reference to find clipping of the amp, to start. Move to a louder reference (-7 or -5dB) for the amp measurement if you hear clipping/distortion.


----------



## Holmz

420tabbycat said:


> I just realized I have an oscilloscope in my Audio tools app, I’m interested in checking out my amp/headunit. It seems to me that the iPhone speaker should be able to handle accurately picking up a wave, thoughts?


Ideaally one wants to look at the electrical signal for clippingand getting a square wave in the time domain.

The accoustic signal will present clipping as harmonics in the frequency domain..


----------



## 420tabbycat

I figured a wave would be a simple measurement. The harmonics will create a plateau?


----------



## sapphari

Good point @Holmz 

Might get better results testing just a single speaker. Try a door speaker and open that door. Place the mic close to the driver. Subs could be tough to measure - again, try opening your trunk and putting the mic close to the driver. Good luck!


----------



## 420tabbycat

sapphari said:


> Good point @Holmz
> 
> Might get better results testing just a single speaker. Try a door speaker and open that door. Place the mic close to the driver. Subs could be tough to measure - again, try opening your trunk and putting the mic close to the driver. Good luck!


Listening to my system at boring levels I usually set my headunit to about 2/3 when setting amp gains. I rarely ever crank it.


----------



## sapphari

You must crank it. It is they only way.... jk

Your HU likely doesn't clip at 2/3rd volume.


----------



## 420tabbycat

sapphari said:


> You must crank it. It is they only way.... jk
> 
> Your HU likely doesn't clip at 2/3rd volume.


That’s the point, I don’t need loud so I set with a very safe HU level. Realistically I go a little higher than 2/3 I just didn’t want to break out the common denominators to have a more accurate fraction 11/16🤷🏼‍♂️ I saw some inexpensive oscilloscopes that would be cool to play with.


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## sapphari

Yeah I've seen those cheap scopes too. For most purposes I think they'd work just fine and be accurate enough. The display is one of the more important features I'd think.


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## Holmz

420tabbycat said:


> Listening to my system at boring levels I usually set my headunit to about 2/3 when setting amp gains. I rarely ever crank it.


And it is probably what the shop did for the OP.
They should have set it to max and dialled the amps back.

One would do it your way fopeople that listen to different music and need to turn up the classical and quiet recordings, and have the louder ones turned down.

Once a pair of speakers, or two, or three where cooked, it means that the user needs to protect them for being clipped to buggery... by turning down the gains. If it was the same shop, then they did not twig that the volume must be too high. This is assuming that was either clipped out of the HU or later...??


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## 420tabbycat

Holmz said:


> And it is probably what the shop did for the OP.
> They should have set it to max and dialled the amps back.
> 
> One would do it your way fopeople that listen to different music and need to turn up the classical and quiet recordings, and have the louder ones turned down.
> 
> Once a pair of speakers, or two, or three where cooked, it means that the user needs to protect them for being clipped to buggery... by turning down the gains. If it was the same shop, then they did not twig that the volume must be too high. This is assuming that was either clipped out of the HU or later...??


This thread has kinda been on my mind over the last few days, for a few reasons. The OPs ability to nuke many fairly priey drivers only to replace immediately and re-nuke immediately. The constant pain inducing metal decibels perpetually being omitted from midbass drivers frantically trying to remember the safe word. Even the fact that after repeated failures no “pro shop” could muster such suggestions as found In this thread. None of the shops tried a higher crossover? Clipping absolutely was not the problem? Just throw a different 6.5 brand in and let us know if we need to throw some more in??? I continually wonder how one could hear clipping and other distressing speaker pleas when the music purposely contains such heavy distortion. Just reinforces my belief that unless you have the money to spend on install and tuning, and a shop that is absolutely in the know about install and tuning, it’s better to learn the craft and be the master of one’s own universe.


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## dumdum

sapphari said:


> I've read 2/3rds of this thread and my impression is aligned with others' - the speakers are seeing clipped signal. You can feed a 300W RMS speaker 50 watts of clipped signal and it will burn up the coil, even if your XO point and slope are conservative. BTW, burnt coils do not suggest that the XO point slope is too low or slope too shallow, it indicates too much thermal accumulation in the coil (which can be caused by clipping).
> 
> You need to find the maximum output of the head unit that puts out unclipped signal (never turn it up past that or you'll roast your coils), then dial the gain on the amp to match that voltage. A DD1 is your friend in this situation (you can test clipping from the HU and amp with this).
> 
> Eric's point about voltage drop is also relevant - even if your gains are set correctly, if your electrical system is dropping voltage, that will also create clipping and burn your coils. Test your voltage and consider adding or swapping your battery.
> 
> Also just wanted to say, that is awesome that you are uncompromising about turning your music down.


What you based that on about a 50 watt clipped signal is not factually correct, a square wave of measured power of 50watts won’t burn a 300w rated coil regardless... a 300watt coil of rated correctly will take 50watts of whatever easily

if you mean a 50 watt rms amp clipped even if made into a square wave continuously it wouldn’t kill a 300watt coil, a 50 watt amp outputting a square wave would put out 50/0.707 which I make to be 71 watts give or take... if you get to a 250 wrms amp and square wave it you then get 353 watts... maybe that might do it... but it would have to be square waves for 100% duty

however does the sine wave not having a full duty cycle change it? Perhaps as the coil doesn’t get a break from heat so it compounds the issue and also doesn’t move in and out so regularly and therefore gets a little less cooling also... so maybe if you said a 150wrms amp you may be more like... but the 50watt amp even if driven to a full square wave will not burn up a 300wrms accurately rated coil... ever!



how low a rating with full clip do you claim will burn it? 1watt fully squared? 50watts is a silly low figure and will not do damage

voltage drop may not help, someone did a very good guide in the U.K. to the power an amps voltage rails can support at various voltages, if an amp isn’t regulated it will certainly drop its output power and then make the gain be inaccurate and clip... but again... an amp set for 50watts rms clean with voltage drop will only ever make less than the 50w driven to a full square wave, the voltage rails drop so the area under the square wave (effectively the power) drops and it still won’t burn the 300wrms coil 🤷🏽‍♂️

you are also incorrect on the crossover, as you go an octave lower in a flat responding speaker you need 3db extra power for every octave so take a midbass if it gets 300watts at 40-80, to be linear it then gets 150watts at 80-160hz, it’s how pink noise works and how we hear... so increasing a crossover from 40hz high pass to 80hz high pass does indeed reduce the power going to the driver with all other things being equal

Sorry but giving out technical information with no basis in actual science other than your opinion is a bit pointless and not really useful to anyone as it’s pretty much worthless aside from telling people how not to do stuff


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## Holmz

dumdum said:


> What you based that on ...
> ...


I am not even sure I understand the 350W rating?

Is it saying 350W of RMS delivered power?
Or that it does 350W RMS pink noise rated in a 20-20k Hz band, which becomes whatever power remains from 70 Hz to some value < 20kHz?
Or 350W of pink noise, if it was a 4 ohm load without any impedence gain?
Or yet something else?


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## dumdum

Holmz said:


> I am not even sure I understand the 350W rating?
> 
> Is it saying 350W of RMS delivered power?
> Or that it does 350W RMS pink noise rated in a 20-20k Hz band, which becomes whatever power remains from 70 Hz to some value < 20kHz?
> Or 350W of pink noise, if it was a 4 ohm load without any impedence gain?
> Or yet something else?


Erm which post is the 350 watts in relationship to you’re referring to? I don’t see it in mine or his?


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## Nocturnal Thunder

Here is an update. I just bought the HCLD and MB8 (4 ohm) from Eric and I'll be getting them on Friday. I also went to a place in Victorville called Audioistics and they will be installing all the equipment into my car. It looks like Digital Designs has discontinued the amp I wanted so I'll be running 2 Arc Audio amps that I have, I'll use my Arc Audio KS 300.2 for the horns. It produces 180 watts per channel at 4 ohms but since the HCLD is 8 ohms, they will only be getting 90 watts per channel which is more than enough for the HCLD. Then I'll use my Arc Audio KS 300.4 for the MB8 but they will be bridged at 4 ohms which will provide 350 watts per channel which is also more than enough for the MB8.

As far as Audioistics, they are far away from me (72 miles from my house) but I don't care, I'm not trusting just any shop to do the work since I got screwed over by other shops. They have the expertise that I'm looking for and I have seen the different projects they have done and the quality is the best I have seen so far in southern California. They will be deadening the inside of my door as well as the sheet metal part of my door, installing the HCLD, setting up both amps as well as the bit One and tuning the system as well. They have a separate building for fabrication with CNC machines and they will custom make a speaker adaptor for the MB8 that will fit into my door. I've also told them about all the midbasses I have destroyed and they will check to make sure there is no clipping going on...they have some SMD instrument that let's them check for that. I will leave my car there for a week so that there is no rush and so they can take their sweet time installing and setting up my system. 

It'll be interesting to see what they do about the emergency brake and hood latch opener so that they can fit the HCLD in their proper location. I don't care about the little blue alarm light that is there, they can get rid of it for all I care, I have had a Lo Jack system in my car since I bought it. Here are some pictures of what that area looks like now, so it'll be interesting to see how they fit the HCLD in there.


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## DeLander

Concerning the MB-8 midbasses, anybody know the optimum sized sealed and ported boxes for these ?
I'm considering moving mine from mounting in doors to door mounted enclosures.


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## dumdum

I think it’s something in your setup clipping, or your music has very high levels of distortion in the mix, so any amount of setting up won’t stop it killing drivers unless it’s done specifically for your music and not generic sine waves at -5db or whatever has been used in the past, then have an installer sit with you once set up and give it as much stick as you do daily, I predict they should then hear what’s wrong, if they don’t then you likely need to find a new installer or lower your expectations of volume somewhat and dial stuff back somewhat


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## Holmz

dumdum said:


> Erm which post is the 350 watts in relationship to you’re referring to? I don’t see it in mine or his?


Any general rating of the speakers, whether 200, 250, or whatever the numbers are.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

Holmz said:


> Any general rating of the speakers, whether 200, 250, or whatever the numbers are.


If you are talking about the MB8 midbass, the RMS rating for them is 225 watts and their peak or maximum is 450 watts I believe. The amplifier I'm using to power them is an Arc Audio 300.4 which will be bridged to 4 ohms to provide 350 watts per channel.


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## dumdum

Holmz said:


> Any general rating of the speakers, whether 200, 250, or whatever the numbers are.


an amplifier that is rated at the same into the same impedance load will be a good match, impedence rise is taken care off, however car audio drivers are given a massive rating, home audio drivers tend to be 100hr tests so the power rating is actually what they can take, and to further complicate it some are rated with a full range signal, so with the addition of a crossover they can handle more

often with tweeters they will specify a power handling, then put an asterisk next to it figure and a little note below saying what filter was used for the test... for example 50 wrms * with a 2500 12db filter

people start pushing things... for example “I put a 5000w amp on my sub rated at 2000watts because with impedence rise it will only ever see 2000w...”

this is all good except what most people don’t realise is at the impedence dip above the peak it’s very possible to have close to the dc resistance and a massive excess of power, it’s worse than clipping of you don’t know what your doing... “with great power comes great responsibility” has never been more apt 😂


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## The Italian

dumdum said:


> an amplifier that is rated at the same into the same impedance load will be a good match, impedence rise is taken care off, however car audio drivers are given a massive rating, home audio drivers tend to be 100hr tests so the power rating is actually what they can take, and to further complicate it some are rated with a full range signal, so with the addition of a crossover they can handle more
> 
> often with tweeters they will specify a power handling, then put an asterisk next to it figure and a little note below saying what filter was used for the test... for example 50 wrms * with a 2500 12db filter
> 
> people start pushing things... for example “I put a 5000w amp on my sub rated at 2000watts because with impedence rise it will only ever see 2000w...”
> 
> this is all good except what most people don’t realise is at the impedence dip above the peak it’s very possible to have close to the dc resistance and a massive excess of power, it’s worse than clipping of you don’t know what your doing... “with great power comes great responsibility” has never been more apt 😂


And this is why I warned the OP about being conservative. He has a long track record of blowing speakers and tends to look at the ratings between RMS & peak. No offense brother, I think we're all just trying to help. There is danger both above and below the right ratings. You have to find a good middle ground to pull off your goals of maximum SPL and not killing any components. 

Honestly, I think the most sound advice is to find an installer you trust who also understands what you want. The rest of us have little chance of providing better advice than a real professional with the car in his bay.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

So I've booked a week at the car audio shop on January 2nd to January 9th to have all the stuff installed and tuned so I'll keep everyone up to date on the whole install. We will try to install it under the dash, but if worse comes to worse, we will install it under the seat firing towards the dash. However, I think we will be able to install it under the dash because we will take the hood release and move it further up and to the left. I'm not sure about the parking brake though, so we may just have the HCLD right next to it since I do need to use the parking brake for safety reasons. I'll be getting the HCLD and midbasses any day now so I'll be able to do some test fits to see how this works out. 

Thanks for the advice everybody!!! They will make sure my Arc Audio amps are not giving a clipped signal and I have checked all my music on my phone to make sure there is no clipping coming from the actual music I'm listening to. I feel real good about this so once everything is done, I'll take pictures and give a review of how they sound.


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## The Italian

Sounds great! Why don't you give us a review of the shop you're using while you're at it.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

The Italian said:


> Sounds great! Why don't you give us a review of the shop you're using while you're at it.


Sounds good. Here is the shop I'm taking it to:









Audiotistics


Audiotistics




www.audiotistics.com





I got to see a ton of the vehicles they have done and the work they do is insane. I also got to see both buildings: the showroom where they have the trophies, plaques, tons of pictures of their stuff in magazines and competitions, and their products. Then I saw the other building where they do the fabrication/installations: it's huge!!!

I also met up with Eric Stevens when I picked up my stuff...holy ****!!! He is one of the smartest people in car audio I have ever met. Really nice guy and gave me tons of advice, so I'm really excited about getting all this stuff installed. This system is going to rock super hard!!! He took a look at my car and everything should be good. He doesn't think there is a chance in hell that I'm going to blowup the MB8 as long as everything is legit, so I'm feeling really confident right now.

I'll post pictures and a review once everything is in and tuned.


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## ckirocz28

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> Sounds good. Here is the shop I'm taking it to:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Audiotistics
> 
> 
> Audiotistics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.audiotistics.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I got to see a ton of the vehicles they have done and the work they do is insane. I also got to see both buildings: the showroom where they have the trophies, plaques, tons of pictures of their stuff in magazines and competitions, and their products. Then I saw the other building where they do the fabrication/installations: it's huge!!!
> 
> I also met up with Eric Stevens when I picked up my stuff...holy ****!!! He is one of the smartest people in car audio I have ever met. Really nice guy and gave me tons of advice, so I'm really excited about getting all this stuff installed. This system is going to rock super hard!!! He took a look at my car and everything should be good. He doesn't think there is a chance in hell that I'm going to blowup the MB8 as long as everything is legit, so I'm feeling really confident right now.
> 
> I'll post pictures and a review once everything is in and tuned.


Right up front with it aren't they?
"Good work ain't cheap and cheap work ain't good" - Audiotistics


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## Nocturnal Thunder

ckirocz28 said:


> Right up front with it aren't they?
> "Good work ain't cheap and cheap work ain't good" - Audiotistics


Yep, I'm not taking any chances. That is why I'm driving 72 miles from home to them...I wanted people that know what the hell they are doing. These folks know what they are doing and the quality of the work they do is top notch. I want this to be my forever system so I don't care about the cost, I wanted the best to do it so if it cost me a little, then so be it. They already quoted me the price for all this work and I can afford it so all is good.


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## The Italian

That sounds awesome! Looking forward to seeing how things turn out. I'm excited for you brother.


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## blonde

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> That's a good question. I had some Hertz midbasses installed in my front doors being powered my my Arc Audio 900.6 and they only lasted 6 months until I blew them up. Then I went to another shop and bought the Focal K2 which were expensive as hell. I blew up 4 pairs of the 6.5" until Focal refused to replace them anymore (they were powered with my Arc Audio KS300.4). I thought maybe the installers sucked, so I went to Speakerworks in Orange and got some Alpine RS69C 6X9 components being powered by my Arc Audio KS300.4 and they only lasted 3 weeks and now the midbasses are blown. Three different shops and all the midbasses could not take my punishment. That is why I'm going to 8" midbasses....6.5" cannot take my brutality. Also, Eric has such an awesome reputation that I figured since I'm buying his horns, why not use his 8" midbass??
> 
> I don't think the shops understand how loud I listen to music.. each time after the install they would crank it up and say "listen to how loud these are" and I would cackle in laughter because that is not even close to loud for me, that is normal listening volume. The other thing is that I don't listen to Rap, Hip Hop, or test tones. I listen to thrash metal and death metal where the kick drums are super punchy and at crazy inhuman speeds. Here are three examples of the death metal I listen to:
> 
> Fleshgod Apocalypse - The Violation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infant Annihilator - Three Bastards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nile - Churning the Maelstrom


my buddy Eyal Levi produced that Fleshgod album. said their very talented musicians. what subs are you gonna be using. im definitely tuned in


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## Nocturnal Thunder

blonde said:


> my buddy Eyal Levi produced that Fleshgod album. said their very talented musicians. what subs are you gonna be using. im definitely tuned in


I have a pair of Digital Designs supercharged 9510K subwoofers with ESP. I have a Digital Designs M4b amplifier for the subs. What I love about my subs is that they can keep up with that super fast double kick. On the song "The Violation", that tempo is 270 bpm and the double kick is crazy fast. My subs can reproduce every single hit cleanly and with such tremendous force, it's almost like a pressure wave but really crazy. 

Next week I'm getting the horns and midbasses installed along with my DSP unit. The subs will be done later this year...either spring or summer. I want to get the trunk build going before we finish up with the subs.


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## Holmz

Oh Well... we will not get to see how all this works out.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

Holmz said:


> Oh Well... we will not get to see how all this works out.


You will get to see how my system works out but it has to be done in stages. The first stage is the HCLD, midbasses and DSP. The second stage is the trunk build. The third stage is my subs in a baltic birch plywood box.


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## dcfis

Please explain the part about them wanting to fit the horns under the seats?? That's got me pondering some weird **** going on


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## Nocturnal Thunder

dcfis said:


> Please explain the part about them wanting to fit the horns under the seats?? That's got me pondering some weird **** going on


Supposedly they can sound good under the seats firing towards the dash, but I'm not buying it. I'm going under the dash...the traditional way. There is just something that bothers me about putting speakers under the seats...I just don't buy it.


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## dumdum

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> Supposedly they can sound good under the knees on the floor firing up towards the dash, but I'm not buying it. I'm going under the dash...the traditional way. There is just something that bothers me about putting speakers under the seats...I just don't buy it.


Six by nines placed under the seats can actually work very well, the reflection off the screen creates an illusion of the sound source being right in front of you, it’s most odd but it does work


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## nyquistrate

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> Supposedly they can sound good under the seats firing towards the dash, but I'm not buying it. I'm going under the dash...the traditional way. There is just something that bothers me about putting speakers under the seats...I just don't buy it.





Eric Stevens said:


> Yes the HLCD for the car have a design that is intended for under dash mounting and with a dispersion pattern that has a cross-firing dispersion pattern that creates very good imaging and staging.





Eric Stevens said:


> Start with them as far left and right as possible and push back under dash as far as possible.
> 
> You need to make sure the underside of the dash in front of the horn is finished off though. Carpeted double wall cardboard is sufficient.


I wouldn't touch under-seat mounting for horns. They were designed to use the dash as an extension of the waveguide.


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## Nocturnal Thunder

nyquistrate said:


> I wouldn't touch under-seat mounting for horns. They were designed to use the dash as an extension of the waveguide.


I agree 100%. Luckily tomorrow I pick up my car from the shop after leaving it there for a week. I'll be able to see and hear the HCLD and MB8 perform. I'll have a review tomorrow night.


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## MythosDreamLab

Nocturnal Thunder said:


> *I'll be able to see and hear* the HCLD and MB8 perform.


(And if you turn it up as loud as you have stated): *So will everyone around you...*

Lol, good luck...


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## Nocturnal Thunder

MythosDreamLab said:


> (And if you turn it up as loud as you have stated): *So will everyone around you...*
> 
> Lol, good luck...


LOL!! Don't worry, I really only open it up when I'm on the freeway or an empty road. I don't care about others hearing me, the loud music is for myself. I usually have my windows up so I can keep that crazy volume in the car as much as possible.


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## Isaradia

420tabbycat said:


> I like Eric’s confidence in running 350w or more to each MB8. Should be the end of the blown speakers. 👍


sorry im late, reading for info, but for anyone else doing the same, we put some MB-8's in a rather loud system, turned them down because they were beating the **** out of the door before they were having any issues. cant wait til we treat the doors on that car


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## dcfis

I dropped 250 on mb6 and am about to do it again


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## Isaradia

update, rattle out of 1 mb8-2, oddly enough though the radio was downgraded about a month ago and the system hasn't been played at full tilt since, so i'm not sure if it was a power related problem....
@Eric Stevens


edit: the mb8's had been HP'd via HU at 70hz with a 24db/o slope, the radio he put in only does 12db/o slope, and he still used 70hz, that's probably what killed it


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## Petererc

just read this thread, where’s the rest of it?


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