# audi A4 b8 2011 : werner's hifi



## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

*audi A4 b8 2011 : werner's car hifi built*

Hello,

I realized I never posted my car. I've been modifying it since 2011.

I choose this car because it has a lot of details I like : 
- it's a good size ( not too big, not too small ), well looking car with a nice 211 HP motor with a nice torque ( 350 Nm )
- it has stock 20cm door speaker, 8.5cm midtones on the dashboard !

I choose the Bang and olufsen stock audio setup but didn't expect much of it.
My previous car had a nice home made hifi setup with cool stuff ( pioneer P9, front subwoofer ) , here to see : http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...30-werners-peugoet-406-small-heavy-hi-fi.html


for the record, this is what the stock setup looks like, for any of you having a similar audi :


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

and well, the sound of the stock setup didn't sound nice at all for me ! harsh, no dynamic bass...
But I understand some choices AUDI made : they wanted light, efficient loudspeakers. all the B&O loudspeakers are plastic and paper... today's cars have to light : so lighters speakers, lighter amplifiers, lighters sound damping ...

anyway, I didn't wait very long to change the speaker : 2 weeks later I first tested other speakers on the dashboard : even cheap Boss speaker worked better than the stock ones
I had to grind them to fit them in , but it worked ! :laugh:


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

it was a nice start

then I went for other speakers in the doors : 20 cm focal 
by the way, the doors are very easy to knock down, I love them.

it made a nice improvement. but I wasn't satisfied yet...


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

the stock subwoofer in the rear didn't fit to the sound. As I was used to 100% front bass from my previous car ( subwoofers front ) , I couldn't stand a subwoofer in the rear...

the stock electronics couldn't provide a balanced sound staging and I was missing my beloved headunit pioneer p9 which provides so many adjustements...

So I studied how to fit in an aftermarket headunit : well what a headache ! nothing is made to fit another head unit : no one makes a plastic headunit adapter to this dashboard and if you remove the stock unit, the central display screen shuts off ! 

thank you modern cars ! 

So as I am stubborn, I made it my way !

As I am forced to keep the stock cd player , I will built a second audio setup in the car ! 

So I built a part to hold the pioneer headunit and put the stock cd player in the glovesbox !! I had to cut the stock CD player !
by the way, I don't have the GPS, so there was a place in the glovebox ...

This was in 2011, I didn't search if any one provided an aftermaket solution since then...

anyway, this works for me since 6 years, so I'm glad I made it !

notice that the ESP OFF button had to go in the glovebox too


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

So I was very happy to have a very good base for a nice hifi setup !
the pioneer P9 with the q9 unit allows to control 8 speakers.

full digital filters on 8 speakers with time correction on each speakers
31 band L + R independant equalizer


I could now install my amplifiers. at first I used a nice Mc intosh and a pioneer.

mc intosh 4 channel for the mid/tweet on the dash board + the doors and the pioneer for a future subwoofer


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

so where to put a front subwoofer ?
in my previous car, I had 2 25cm subwoofer under each front seat, facing the legs ! I worked nice !

So I tryied to make the same thing ! but this time, I would use nice small focal subwoofer : utopia 13ws

I made a few test in a wooden sub box. I sounded very good. incredible little things !
but it would even be better with 2 pcs in a bigger glassfiber box !


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

here goes the glass fiber sub box , only 1 pcs under the passenger seat. 
Why not 2 ? well my previous car learned me that the left subwoofer under the driver tends to disturb the staging : phase problems occurs that time correction can't arrange

so 1 box under the passenger works very good. Notice that I don't compete in sound competitions and that all that matters is for me, the driver, to have the best sound !

actually, if I drive with someone, I turn down the music and talk !

anyway, here goes the built :

fitting tests with the seat on a very low position then fitting on a honeycomb like material that absorbs the polyester liquid


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

after that, the usual glassfiber reinforcement

volume turned out to be 5L


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

I made myself a little guilty pleasure and add some carbon fiber even if it can't be really seen actually

notice how the box doesn't stick out. actually no one noticed it when they climb in


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

then the front part and some carpet.
I made a separate front plate so that I can access easily in the box when putting the fiber.

damn it !! I can't find any picture of the finished sub box ! I will take some and post them soon, 5 years later after the built !! :laugh:


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

took some pictures today, 5 years after the built of this subwooferbox :surprised:
even found some nice legs to fit in the car ! show purpose only ! :laugh:

so how does it sound : well, believe it or not, those 2 little guys provide a nice punchy, round bass at a surprising level !
Of course, those are not deep bass killers : I ease their job a bit by filtering them @ 20 Hz , 36Db/oct .
I have to add 4Db in this deep bass range : 20 Hz to 30 Hz

So they won't make the whole car vibrate like a sub in the trunk box but they complete the front sound very very nicely and hit very happily !
I cut them @ 100 Hz, 18Db/oct

another grat point is that this little box in just attached to the car ; not fixed by screws . This means that no vibrations are transmitted to the car : you got nothing ratteling , yet a great quantity of bass !

overall, I'm truly satisfied with the bass : I love how any drum will hit , kick at a high level of sound. any music rich with bass is very enjoyable ( just heard the roots at full level but the girlfriend couldn't stand this spl ! )

you got to hear it to believe it !


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

sound deadening : well, when I first drove the audi a4, I was quite disapointed : you hear way too much the noise of the road !
Of course, this car is not a mercedes S class , but the A4 is quite expensive and you could expect it to be a much quieter drive

But I can understand why modern cars are not as silent as the older ones :

- chassis are now made of thinner steel sheet ( various thickness in the right places )
this cost less steel , is still stiff if not stiffer than previous cars and makes the car lighter and thus more agile
BUT roadnoises can easily come inside the car

- tires are larger than previously : mine has 245/45R17 tires : this means more roadnoises. I even think the stock michelin are quite noisy.
In fact, I even went for another size : 225/55R16 , toyo C1s : much less noise and more confort. Of course, a worse handling in fast turns

- Modern cars have to stay light , so manufacturers uses less damping material. Actually I didn't found any oldshool black "tar" damping matt. 
I only found a grey foam. this is because people buy a car does uses less gasoline, therefore it has to be lighter.
Sound deadening is far under in the list of priorities.

- underneath the car, manufacturers used to put a thick coat of damping material to protect the chassis ; modern car have plastic underbodies : it's lighter, cheaper and gives a better aerodynamic : BUT is it not efficient in sound deadening !

don't you agree with me ?

so well, let's pull out some stuff and stick some other stuff in it !!


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

So I started with the fender : once again, modern car changed the technology for good results or worse results
Modern car use inner fender made of thin fleece : it's lighter, cheaper and the dirt doesn't stick.
older cars had thicker plastic inner fenders that, well, you know, had better sound deadening performances ! 

anyway, I glued some damping matt wherever I could

Results were quite lame, but it had to be done !


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

time for some serious work : let's access to the floor !

to reduce the road noises, I decided to take out the floor mattress and put some serious sound deadening.

First I took out the stock foam, too light in my opinion


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

I used regular deadening matt + some reknown dynamat

I decided to go really NUTS by adding STEEL plates too ! hey, you don't want to redo the job ! and it's all about weight !

so all the large aeras of the chassis that sounded empty are covered. I used my finger and clock on the chassis like a door to hear the sound !

I even drove the car without the floor mattress to make some sound check , roadnoises check and well , this results gave some great results !

I also added a thick rubber mattress and stuffed foam in any holes !


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

I also sticked some rubber pads on the large interior plastic panels


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

Same work has to be done in the front doors. I never done the rear ones... yeah I got lazy !

sticking pads + steel plate : nothing has to move or vibrate !


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

all back in and final test : well, this hard work gave great results : Car is quieter and you can enjoy some nice silence when driving on any type of road. The car feels like a really expensive one now !

I added approx 20 - 25 kg inside + doors

I wasn't expecting that but the Bass is clearly louder ! bass improved like a 6Db boost ! and this just listening to the 16cm in the doors ! with the focal 20cm, you could even listen to music without the subwoofer ( when parked, not driving )


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Yeah Nouméa ! Expat' ?
Keep posting it's interesting!
Did you think about adding a small trunk sub for the low end to complement?
Seat boxes are really not popular here (well I think).
I did try them once, sort of dual midbass with one in door/one in seat, and it worked surprisingly well.


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

Elgrosso said:


> Yeah Nouméa ! Expat' ?
> Keep posting it's interesting!
> Did you think about adding a small trunk sub for the low end to complement?
> Seat boxes are really not popular here (well I think).
> I did try them once, sort of dual midbass with one in door/one in seat, and it worked surprisingly well.


hey there ! actually I was born and raised here, in this nice but small place 

the pioneer P90/q90 that I use can filter 8 loudspeakers : that's what I do so there is no place left for an additionnal subwoofer!
But I don't mind the ultra low end that is not powerful : You can hear deep bass where it is intendend even if it doesn't shake the seat.
Actually, it is even more realistic : after all, when you listen music at home, you don't have the whole seat shaked by infrabass !

seat box are indeed a great idea for sub , bass and kick !


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

Tweeters !

I first removed the stock tweeters and placed the ones from the focal IS 200 kit. I like soft tweeters so that i can listen to very loud heavy metal music without aching !

I had to modify them slightly to fit in. I kept this setup for a very while because it was OK, even if it wasn't tremendous or very detailed. I kept on working on the other speakers and locations

The stock grill is very badly pointed ( downwards ! ) so it actually mutes the tweeter !

in my setup the tweeters don't have so much work : the mid on the dashboard can be run very high, like 5 - 6 KHz. so the tweeters just work above those freqs


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

mid on the dashboards : So i had this nice 2 way little BOSS speakers installed for a while 

I kind of glued them in place with this sticky material.

sounded nice fir a first setup but of missing details and power.
Notice that the big magnet fits tighly in place witha little grinding ! yes, i grinded a few millimeters of the magnet !


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

and this happened when removing them !  because well, they were well glued and I used a screwdriver to reach them !

anyway, I wanted to better ones !


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

as I like to play and test various speakers, I went for some goofyness : small 40mm mylard speakers ( used for computers ) ; just for fun

this little cheap things are fun : they can provide some sound, but mostly high frequences, like a big tweeter. basic sound, no details or dynamic and quite soft !

It's part of the fun in this hobby : testing, trying different positions and settings

of course, the fully digital ajustable filters, time alignement from the pioneer makes this very simple


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

seriously, those are the midrange I choose : FOUNTK FR 88 EX

these little fellow are very cheap : I bought them 20 USD each back in 2012


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

werner sline said:


> It's part of the fun in this hobby : testing, trying different positions and...


I'll say AMEN to that! 

I am testing a center channel setup these days using an old Logitec 2.1 satellite speaker (computer speakers) as a donner 

Wires are as thin as they can gat, cheap plastic box, some acrylic Scotch tape 

And it sounds pretty awesome! 

I'll bet those Mylard don't really sound as bad as they seem. 


I'll soon replace the center channel with a FaitalPro 3FE22 4 ohm in a 3D printed POD 

But I am also going to test a MICCA COVO-S - you should check them out, wonderful set of speakers for about 40USD!!!


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

eddieg said:


> I'll say AMEN to that!
> 
> I am testing a center channel setup these days using an old Logitec 2.1 satellite speaker (computer speakers) as a donner
> 
> ...


thank you ! it's all about fun and the universal pleasure of listening to your own favorite music !
I hear SO MANY different type of music , no one around me has so many various favorite artists ! 

I can slip a gangstarr CD then change to simply red , try some german rap from Fettes brot and end with some french De palmas ! Then the next day I will love to hear some robert cray , hoobastank, some good old steel pulse reggae and go nuts with some foo fighters ! 

hifi in a car is your own personal space to rock to your favourite songs as loud and as long as you want ! 
Sometimes I put my girlfriend or my father at the wheel to listen to music they like or that we both like. I try to share the unique pleasure of Car hifi this way ! 

Well, eddieg, just like you I like to try various speakers. Sometimes only for a few hours ! just like those myllard speakers !
then I put them on a shelf and forget about them. Until one day I have evolved enough on my setups and tricks to want to try them again !!

The little micca box could indeed be fun to test, maybe right under the dash board with some separate tweeters. I have some trouble putting box on the dashboard : that's big for me.


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

I am using a 128GB MP3 inventory full of music types from every possible end of the earth I could lay my hands on. 

And I am growing out of space looking for a better smartphone - thinking of the Xiaomi MI MIX with 256GB internal storage + a Micro SD along with it 

Any ways the MICCAs are source point - they have a tweeter embedded instead of the usual dust cap.

This is why I am testing the FaitalPro in conjunction to the MICCAs

Oh and thanks for the opinion about the Mylars!


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

eddieg said:


> I am using a 128GB MP3 inventory full of music types from every possible end of the earth I could lay my hands on.
> 
> And I am growing out of space looking for a better smartphone - thinking of the Xiaomi MI MIX with 256GB internal storage + a Micro SD along with it
> 
> ...


any pics of your setup ? I didn't know the faitalpro loudspeakers


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Currently I am using a Logitech temporary center speaker - the FP pod is on its way from printing and the MICCAs are on their way over seas. 

Will take a few good weeks until I get to it. 

you can see my curent setup (without the center) - here 

The Logitech speaker is currently simply taped in the middle of the dash


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

about mids on the dash, here are my FOUNTEK FR88ex

cheap, aluminium cone, large band, small magnet


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

but a tiny bit too big

so well, let's CUT THEM !
it's ok, I bought 4 of those mids if I mess it up ! :laugh:

so it went well, speakers fit perfectly and, man, do they sound well !! 

these little thing bring SO MUCH ! I've found my favorite setup to be an awkward filtering :
from 3.5KHz @ 6Db/oct to 6KHz @ 12 Db/oct

why starting so high ? why not a traditionnal 350 - 500 Hz @ 12 Db/oct ?

well midtones ( 500 - 800 Hz ) tend to sound a bit too loud and harsh when playing very loud. maybe because of the dashboard / windshield angle , maybe because of the tiny volume under the speackers...

cutting at a very soft slope like 6Db/oct makes the mids speackers give some soft midtones, yep quite deep in the down mid/low range and that will help the doors up 

at man, those mids do bring exactly what's missing between a loudspeaker in the door and the tweeter !
you don't have to cut your tweeter too low and you don't have to expect your speakers in the door to play the upper midrange

plus the FOUNTEK can play very loud and soft !

in fact, I got them in the car since 5 years now and I never wanted to change them !


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

So since 5 years I got 2 things I never changed because I was satisfied:

- the sub box with 2 focal subwoofers
- the midrange speakers in the dashboard

2 years ago I found some satisfying tweeters : Helix C1t

I did some testing : tweeter are easy to test, no need to build a box !

So I compaired with the various tweeters I had 
- on one picture you can even see the helix dome midrange... that I didn't like !
- you can see a big VIFA tweeters : impressive one, but too "ssshh" on the voices ( ehm, can somebody help my english :blush: ? )

My personnal goal is to be able to listen to rock, hard rock, blues as it should be : LOUD ! but electric guitars should not make my ears bleed !
In my opinion, those are the music where higher notes very important.
I also listened to some music where the sound stage should sound far away )

by the way :Maybe I am too sensitive, but I always turned down the 2 - 3 KHz area. right in the electric guitar range ! ( I don't play any instrument... )

Listening loud is so much enjoyable, it brings a live feeling ! so I do whatever strange filtering it takes to get the best out of the speakers

for example, those C1t tweeters are at their best above 8 Khz @ 12Db / oct !
very high, uh ? In fact they are able to play very low BUT agressively in my opinion. With this setting, they still bring at of frequencies under the cutting point ( with the pioneer P90, you can turn off every speakers and listen to the tweeters alone : weird but very interesting ! )

The helix bring at of details to the light : it's really enjoable to listen to all your favorite tracks again hear NEW sounds or details you didn't notice !

ISN'T THAT WHAT WE ALL LIKE TO DO ?? :laugh: :laugh:

So I decided to let the mids to 6.3KHz and the tweeters start at 8 KHz
sometimes I try to change this setup but always come back to it !


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

So for the first time in this car, I built a part you can actually see.

I choose the door triangle position to get a wide staging. 

I choose to aim the center of the opposite window and started to modify the original plastic triangle : there is not turning back !

I used a focal plastic shell for tweeter and glued it in place. Then, as usually I shaped the final form with black plastic bond used for repairing car bumpers

I spray glued some black fabric to make it very discreet.

I 'm very satisfied with the end results, It's still ok after 2 years in our shiny country
the last picture show the original tweeter triangle, I will post pictures of my finished triangles !


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## bilbo6209 (Oct 12, 2015)

werner sline said:


> So for the first time in this car, I built a part you can actually see.
> 
> I choose the door triangle position to get a wide staging.
> 
> ...


How does it look with the drivers side door closed? At least on the A5 the door sail is pretty close to the dash, I was looking for a way to maybe modify the tweeter position too.


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Lovely speakers, the Founteks that is. 

They are a bit "flat" to the feel, some do call it "soft" as you've mentioned. 
For me they are a bit lacking power when compare them to leading Tier 1-3 speakers such as scan speaks, Hybrid audio etc etc 

But it isn't a disadvantage, it's a matter of taste and tuning.
To me they were on the neutral side (not natural, neutral) not here not there... simply good speakers especially for what they cost - money well spent! 

The Vifa's I guess those are the X25's ? right - ring radiator tweeters. 

It is very important to aim right, on axis, most ring radiators I've had sounded a bit sharp and yes with a bit of a hiss to them, turn them a bit sideways off axis and it may give you much better results. 

For me, usually the 5Khz is the most problematic area to tune but it depends on so many variables - what I like about this thread is that you do what you like and although you try and test constantly new options - you know very well what to stick to.

And if that is not enough - a wonderful, wonderful car!


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

bilbo6209 said:


> How does it look with the drivers side door closed? At least on the A5 the door sail is pretty close to the dash, I was looking for a way to maybe modify the tweeter position too.


indeed, I will post pictures
that's why I build my tweeters much more higher than the stock ones

check where I drill the hole and how I aimed them


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

eddieg said:


> Lovely speakers, the Founteks that is.
> 
> They are a bit "flat" to the feel, some do call it "soft" as you've mentioned.
> For me they are a bit lacking power when compare them to leading Tier 1-3 speakers such as scan speaks, Hybrid audio etc etc
> ...


thank you
good to hear that we both had the same feelings about products we both tested. it is not easy because each person tends to love a different sound and listens in a different car, with different settings and electronics.
What better 8cm could I try ?

actually I may not go in a serious, scientific way of doing things. I even have an ISSUE WITH LOUDSPEAKERS :
let me explain you ; imagine me as a stand up comedian !

" loudspeakers are like women for me ! when I see one, i stare at her, check out how she's made : i'm all in love and full of hope : I want this one all for me !!
I can see myself touching the cones, softly screwing her in , and finally, the moment of extasy ; I hear how she sounds !
Then I get to touch all her buttons, find her best sound, get the best out of our relation to the maximum level !
and well, then I realize we don't fit together : actually, my ears can't stand her anymore from this moment on !
I NEED NEW LOUDSPEAKERS ! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

well, don't get me wrong : in fact, it's just about loudspeakers ! I got the same woman since 9 years but I went through 50 loudspeakers since 1996 !
I can change loudspeakers all day long without problems. Try that with women, you will have tons of problems !! :laugh: "

anyway, that my little addiction, nothing major though

so well , how does it show in my car ?
well in the DOORS !

these are the speakers I tested, once, twice and more. And I still got them all ! and will put them in again to see what my experience of setting brings

- focal is200 20cm
- vifa 13cm
- hertz mille 16cm
- dynaudio mgt160 16cm
- jvc 16cm coax
- trump 16cm ( triangle copy )


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## bilbo6209 (Oct 12, 2015)

I see you are running 2 amps... Any idea what the max draw is on the two? I'm debating on my build going with 2 genesis profile 3 amps with a total max draw of just under 140amps, or a single class D (jl hd900/5 or Arc xdi 1200.6) with a draw of around 60amps 

Did you do anything to upgrade the cars electrical system ie big 3 bigger alternator etc?


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

bilbo6209 said:


> I see you are running 2 amps... Any idea what the max draw is on the two? I'm debating on my build going with 2 genesis profile 3 amps with a total max draw of just under 140amps, or a single class D (jl hd900/5 or Arc xdi 1200.6) with a draw of around 60amps
> 
> Did you do anything to upgrade the cars electrical system ie big 3 bigger alternator etc?


I think the max draw is what the amp could POSSIBLY draw : I mean if you put same speakers on 1 or 2 amps, they will still draw the same current because the load stays the same
I didn't modify anything on my car : still got the same battery, the same alternator. At maximum SPL, there is no obvious signs of underpowering

But I run small loudspeakers !
Back in 1996 I ran 2 big 12 inch subwoofer in a small car, for ground shaking bass : the battery was a small 55 amp ! there you could see headlights getting weaker at each bass line !! :laugh:

And in my opinion, a modified alternator is only for very powerfull sound systems with 2 big battery to charge

and by the way, audi must have a very special alternator because it is also START & STOP ...

what subwoofer will you use and are you a bass freak ?


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

a propos amps, 

WHAT ARE THE BEST AMPLIFIERS YOU CAN PUT IN A A4 ?

WELL? A4's from HELIX !! 

ok sorry, i didn't choose those for the name only !
I choose those amps because they are... famous and thin, very thin

I use my trunk to put pushbikes, baggages and any material that i buy, so I NEED MY TRUNK !
those amps are 35mm thick, so I just had to put them on a wooden plate. the Q90 processor is sunk in the wood ( it has nice little plates to screw it in place )

those are in the car since end 2012 and provided a great milestones to continue the purchase of the sound of my dream !


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## bilbo6209 (Oct 12, 2015)

werner sline said:


> I think the max draw is what the amp could POSSIBLY draw : I mean if you put same speakers on 1 or 2 amps, they will still draw the same current because the load stays the same
> 
> 
> what subwoofer will you use and are you a bass freak ?


Well I am looking at 2 class A/G amps I know they aren't nearly as efficient as class D amps... So yes the speakers will draw the same but if a class D is lets say 80% efficient and a class A/G is 50% efficient the class D will take considerably less power to put out the same RMS. Hence the 2 class A/G amps have a total of [email protected] fuses vs [email protected] for the class D amps. 

No I'm not a bass head lol I'm running 1 idmax 10.


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

yes you're right about efficiency
a 10 inch sub shouldn't be a problem

you might also consider if you listen to music while driving or parked ?


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

werner sline said:


> thank you
> good to hear that we both had the same feelings about products we both tested. it is not easy because each person tends to love a different sound and listens in a different car, with different settings and electronics.
> What better 8cm could I try ?
> 
> ...


When you upgrade software "girlfriend 7.0" to be "wife 1.0" yes, you may have a problem after several years 

Which other 8cm? - The options of amazing speakers are endless. 

I've had the HAT L3SE's and found them to be amazing, with or without a tweeter. 

But for me, that taste of old good glass of wine would always be Morel speakers, the CDM midranges for me are "magical" speakers.

I love the way they sound right off the bat! 

The way I see it, if you don't have a big budget look for cheap speakers that get great reviews and many of them. 

Install them and then tune them like hell! 

If you do have a big budget then this is where you buy speakers by the description of how they sound and if they fit the type of sound you are looking for and you then install them and see if with minimum tuning they just sound like what you've hoped for. 

This is one of the reasons to buy high end speakers - the vendor put so much R&D and effort to make them sound good right off the shelf (given a good installation and rest of the chain with good equipment too). 

Mainly if I buy a high end speaker it is because - 

it would sound well on minimum efforts.
it would perform well. 

Other wise - I look for a cheap speaker with good reviews and tune tune tune it until it sounds the way I want it to, hopefully - I get there most of the times. 

As for which 8 cms I would like to try? 

Currently I would love to get my hands on these: 

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...-10m-4614g06-3-fiberglass-cone-midrange-each/

Or the Illusion Audio C3CX's 


But I am curious just the same as for the FaitalPro's and the MICCAs 


Regarding amplifiers and technologies (not just classes) - Check out the XDI series and the KS mini series, pretty impressive products. 

If you want to try different technologies try OEM integrators such as Audison Prima Bit series or solutions from both Helix and Mosconi

Read about Audison's FullDA solutions or Clarion's FDS technology - but these are different game fields in terms of signal handling while we are speaking about speakers and amplifier classes.


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

man you're seeing the future : my GF will indeed be changed into a wife ! and I might soon have to talk about the famous W.A.F ! wife acceptency factor !! but so far she's ok with all the stupid things I do ( I'm mainly into radio controled buggies lately )

anyway

the midrange you showed me are very tempting ! it makes me want to pull the trigger on one !
plus the midrange are the easiest loudspeakers to change in my car.
I got to keep my mind cool and work on the doors first !

So you like the morel dome midrange ? CDM88 ? funnily, I had a pair too, 10 years ago. But I didn't take the time to get the best out of them. I think i always want to make them play too low. How do you filter them ?

DOME MIDRANGE IN THE A4 : I also tested the expensive HELIX C2M midrange. or should I say "upper midrange". Because, in my opinion, they can't play the range the specs show :

Power handling RMS / max.	40 / 80 Watts
Frequency response	550 Hz - 7,000 Hz
Resonance frequency	520 Hz
Sensitivity	93 dB 1W / 1m
Impedance	4 Ohms
Diameter	54 mm; 2.1"
Installation depth	31 mm / 1.22"
Installation diameter	78 mm; 3.07"
Cone material	Silk dome

somehow they also bother me because they sound agressiv ! maybe the famous 2 - 3 KHz range. even after I tried to equalize them...
Interesting thing with those smaller dome : you can put them in various location, no box needed. I tried them on the dashboard and under the dashboard. Even next to the feet, far away under the dash...
maybe I should work on them again... I kept them


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

CURRENTLY in my DOORS

ok, don't laugh at me : I bought these old fashioned JVC 16cm speakers a while ago and always wondered what they are able to
I think I was appealed by the " old school sounds better " theory... or maybe because the speakers were looking at me screaming : " save us !! " :laugh: 

I got them in the car since a month now and well, it's very disturbing ; they bring lots of details to life in the upper midrange !
I came to cut them from 50hz @ 12Db/oct to 2Khz @ 12 Db/oct

so I guess their little tweeter doesn't work in this range so it's the main cone that works actually. fact is that I heard dozen of CDs and often heard new things
for example, the BRIAN ADAMS's song "room service" has a nice electric guitar that I never heard so clearly previously !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9-C85muwqo

and DYNAMIC : this things have dynamic too ! at very loud level ! 
the track gangstarr/the roots "lift your fist" , that already sounds easily very good, sounds brutal with the JVC speakers : The clap is as loud as a man with big hands claping in your ears ! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvkgn6qd9I0

One interesting discovery too is the bass : the JVC are intented for trunk / doors : well in my doors, they got a major bump at 100-150 Hz ! at first I thought the war is over, I can't deal with that. But whatever, lets shave 6db from this area until is it acceptable, and well it works except on some songs: the bass line from some bass guitar is still too loud : should I shave more off ? I'll still working on this aera
but the thing is : the equalizer also affect other loudspeakers in the same frequence range ; for instance, my subwoofer

So I compensated : I took off some deepbass with the equalizer ( from 20 to 63 Hz ) and raised the level of the subwoofer
In MY HIFI world you can cheat : important thing is what you EARS get !

and well, my ears are impressed : the JVC brilliantely complete the subwoofer : Each beat or drum is nicely reproduced and nicely dynamic even if the JVC don't play any bass : they just complete the sub in the right area. Reminder : my subs play up to 100 Hz @ 18Db/oct

I had to listen to ROBYN's " crash and burn " 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE4k1R4m4gY
This is one funny song : the beat is tremendous and wakes up the SPL competitor in you ! It's like chocolate, you want more of it ! and well, I got my dosis : this beat hits in the chest like a crazy ex girlfriend !! You win if you can play this track without hearing anything rattle in your car !

then I wanted to hear ROBERT CRAY's "you move me" : loud as a live club, well almost : What a pleasure ! bassline is a bit too present, I had to tune down the 80Hz a few Db... 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81qEmfr43M0

so conclusion : crazy JVC things ! they impressed me with details, sound level. But if I can't get the bass to sound natural on every bass line, I will have to take them off !!

PICTURES : the special ring I built didn't made it : it's too thick, I can't put the stock grill back in ! So I made regular flat MDF rings...

EDIT : I hope you enjoyed the youtube links : It's nice too actually talk about the main subject : MUSIC !


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

TWEETERS : more pics

I mounted both tweeters as high as possible because of the dashboard left

I like to shut off all other loudspeakers and listen to the tweeters alone. I adjust the time alignement, try various cut off

the helix C1t tweeters can play at a very low cut off, like 2 - 3 Khz @ 6Db/oct ; that what some brax/helix lovers do. 
But I can't stand this !! put some loud heavy metal and it will rip your head off !
I went to 8Khz @ 12Db/oct : still have lots of details and no more harshness

the little midrange on the dashboard play from 3.15KHz @ 6Db/oct to 6.3KHz @ 12Db/oct


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## bilbo6209 (Oct 12, 2015)

werner sline said:


> TWEETERS : more pics
> 
> I mounted both tweeters as high as possible because of the dashboard left
> 
> ...


Thank you for the tweeter pics! I like the finished look, I will have to go with something similar.


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

you're welcome
I used black loudspeaker fabric. it's elastic so quite easy to fit.

SETUP
here it is how it looks ( ok I changed the doors loudspeakers for the JVCs )

why a different slope at high pass filter at 50hz on the doors between left ( 18Db/oct ) and right ( 12 Db/oct ) ?
well I noticed that even with a time alignement correction, the bass slipes to the left side ; probably because of phase problem

So I tried to raise the slope on the left speaker and it sounded better : the bass ( in this case the range from 63Hz - 80Hz approx ) can be located in the center of the dashboard
A drummer set has to hit nicely in the center of the dashboard, I love that !

so once again, it is a strange solution, but it works for me !


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Happy New Week :laugh:

Don't worry, once she becomes Wife 1.0 - W.A.F == -1 ! 

Morel have a very bad tendency to write misleading guides when it comes to xover points and power transfer point. 

What ever you will read in their manual about the CDM XOVER settings, reality is a bit different, I'll explain. 

Now don't get me wrong, the guides are correct but what most people understand as Xover points and how Morel point of view for xover points may be - are very, VERY, different. 

I've had a personal conversation, face to face, not on the phone, with Oren Mordechai which is today's Morel CEO (He is the son of the factory founder), it was done during a tour at their factory at which I was invited in person - you can read about it here - tour at Morel - you would require to google translate the page. 

About the CDM drivers (880 or 88 for this reference):

If you'll read the technical specs of the passive xover you will get illogical xover points for the CDM lower end (High pass), in fact for active setup (without a passive xover) Morel recommended to cut them at 450Hz 12db 

Working for many years with CDMs - the 54s the 88 and now the 880 I know very well that if I cut them 450hz at 12db - they will go straight to hell withing the first time I'll play them loud enough.

So I figured out what Morel are telling me that at 450Hz they should already be cut down by 12db!!! Meaning at 12db the xover settings should be 900Hz! 

So what is happening? why are they doing that? 

After a conversation with Morel (Oren) I understood that at their passive Xover they are cutting the CDM at arround 550Hz with a shallow slope (don't recall right now if it is 6 or 12 db) but they also use a compensation circuit to cut down drastically the power under 550Hz 

Why do they do that? why not just cut it at 24db hz -

I guess it is both because a 24db passive Xover would be HUGE and Expensive to manufacture and as well a better phase alignment.


For me, I cut the CDM at 650Hz 24db 

The woofers (Morel Hybrid 2) are playing well and wide until 700hz so I get a very good connection between the two and a very good stage height. 


For me, and for me alone, I'm not saying it's the way to go it's just how I find it to get along at most cases - if you want to get a speaker as low as possible to it FS - Cut it with a steep slope as possible, other wise pick a higher xover point and a shallower slope. 

Speaking with Morel engineers they mentioned that as a rule of thumb for tweeters it is recommended to cut them when using a shallow slope - about three times than the FS they are measured with and for a midrange about 1.5 times the FS value and for woofers you can cut them very near to the FS it self - but it is just a rule of thumb so no guaranty hear, I don't want to be blamed about something I may have not understood in full. 

Speakers and tuning in general - 

I used to like speaker experiments in the past but at a certain point I got tired of it and wanted to stay with a brand that really speaks to me, that brand is Morel mainly.

I just figured out I want to be able to tune each system I have no matter what it is, to my liking. 

And it is really hard to do it "blind" without getting some basic knowledge about what your curve is - I use SPL meters and RTA (umik-1 by mdsp and REW) to get a basic starting point and I tune from there by ear.

As for having a bass bias to either left or right - changing an entire speaker slope, might be a very rough, hard action - like using an axe instead of a scalpel, sometimes a small tweak at the EQ may do the trick.

Run an RTA measurement for each midbass (at the same volume level) and compare between the two and you would probably see at which frequency one of them is stronger - focus on that area and see if you can tweak it (if not, you may have a cancellation issue for which changing the install of the mid-bass themselves may solve).


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

very interesting mate ! right into specific details ! thank for the writing, this will help me

I also thought that passiv crossover make more than just filtering ; you confirmed it !

I even think that some manufacturers show low cut off frequency just advertising purpose ! because for example, well all want a tweeter that you can filter very low !

you re also right about the way to work and study your own hifi setup : tools are required ! but a RTA measurement won't tell why some SSS sound slip left !
Do you have this problem ? most SSS sound from the singer ( each time the singer pronounces a word with S ) is located in center as it should. But sometimes, it comes from the left ! phase problem ?


by the way I evolved on my tweeter filtering : i noticed i had a bad tendancy to put too much higher notes above 7-8 KHz and filtered my tweeter badly ( 8Khz @12Db/oct )
So I turned the tweeter a few Db down and filtered them lower : 5KHz @ 12 Db/oct. 
So that I still can enjoy loud heavy metal without hurting my ears
like this one for example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gayvNjmf4lc


sometimes you got to RESET your ears ! how come ?

In fact, this was due to one opportunity i had : I listened to CABASSE HIGH END SPHERE speakers at the local dealer shop in a special room. And by hi end, i mean the 150 000 USD WORTH hifi setup ! some crazy rich people do buy those ! I couldn't / wouldn't !

those giant balls have 4 speakers in the same axe , from 55cm to the tweeter. I had the chance to put my own CD's : brian adams, robert cray but I couldn't "zap" through many CD's as i like to do...
and well, I was disapointed : of course the sound is "BIG", loud and dynamic, a sound stage can be "seen" but some notes hurt my ears : guitars sound agressiv, robert's voice had low medium colorations...

The salesman ( which I know quite well ) put some other CD's : some blues, some joe cocker : he told me " this is the TRUE sound " , CABASSE himself came to adjust the setup.
I joked a bit with him and asked him if he wasn't anoyed by some frequences too and he told me : " you're accustomed to your own sound all this years in your car ! " 
Which is true, i don't mind. 

that's like religion ! each one has his own belief ! some who don't think just believe what other say ! 

anyway, I got back in my car and turned on the CD player : well, the sound got "tiny", but hey, no more annoying frequences and a dynamic midbass as i like it !
but indeed, this cabasse session made me realize my 8 - 12 khz were too loud : i corrected the higher notes from my car by turning down the tweeters. I'm not stubborned ! all I want is the drumer high hat to sound realistic !

here some pictures of the cabasse I listened to ( pictures from the internet from an other shop )


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

i put my good old DYNAUDIO 160 GT in the doors again, just to re-check what I think of them
well, those are not very entertaining ! no midbass at all... I filtered them at 50Hz @ 12db/oct to 2KHz @ 12Db/Oct and raised the bass section on the equaliser : nothing... no punch...

I tested them as full bass speaker ( no filter in the low section ) and well they seems to do a subwoofer kind of job. But I need a midbass that replaces the subwoofer. its job should be to complete the 80 - 150 hz section with dynamic

medium range is ok, but the 300-400hz section show some coloration/resonance with my door. power is good, it can play really loud and controlled but I mostly need a midbass that kicks

so , it didn't take long for me to put it back on a shelf and re-try the next one !

once again, don't take my word for the ultimate truth ! that's just my opinion in my setyp with my pair of ears !! some would say that the dynaudio 160gt is a very good very well known speaker !


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

werner sline said:


> Do you have this problem ? most SSS sound from the singer ( each time the singer pronounces a word with S ) is located in center as it should. But sometimes, it comes from the left ! phase problem ?
> 
> sometimes you got to RESET your ears ! how come ?
> 
> ...


Notice the emphasize on the fact that the person you were speaking to is a salesman :laugh:

As for the hiss of the tweeters - It could be a way too less forgiving high pass filter for tweeters that have way too much power at their higher end.

It could be a phase/timing issue between left and right tweeters or even an angle/aiming issue. 

You can try "tricks" such as paying with a tiny margin of time corrections for the tweeter which is closer to you - about 0.02 to 0.1 jump at the settings and it may do wonders to the hissing issue.

You can try aiming the tweeter or place it behind an acoustic fabric/cloth (speaker grill cloth) 

But mainly I would advise to download Dr. Floyd E Tool (I hope I am not misspelling his name) from Harman "How to listen" look it up at one of ErinH's threads if I recall correctly. 

You will find it very funny how most people tend to "over color" with the high notes about 8-20Khz which is mainly blinding your ability to distinguish details and locations and blinding your ability to separate between the instruments. 

Exact measurements can provide you with an enormous amount of details and knowledge about your sound systems that your ears just can't 

Now I am not too knoledgable about it as I wish I wanted to be - there are higher Guru's in this wonderful forum to learn from, I'm speaking about people that it is their profession and some which have a past a NASA that do respond here - wonderful people to learn from!!!

You can get the group delays charted out pointing about possible cancellations in conjunction to SPL/RTA graphs...
You can understand what is ringing/echoing at your system and then attend to the speaker from which it is sourced from 

And so on and so on... 

But "at the end of the day" your ears and brain are the ones the count! trust them for the final tuning, they always have the last say!

And yes for some it is pure science and for some it is much more of a "religion" - I believe it is a bit of both. 

I use science to base my foundations but I build it with emotions. 

And YES - you do need to RESET your ears! 

This is what listening fatigue is all about.

When you tune a system - try not to go past the 30-40 minutes between each sessions. 

Change the musical tracks and only then go back to the past ones so that you can tell yourself truly if there is a difference or not. 

When you do changes - try to drive a few days with two presets at least so that you can go back and fourth between the "before" and "after" to understand which one you like more.

They say "Rome wasn't built in a day" but they also say "all roads lead to rome" - you'll get there, enjoy the ride! it is what that counts more.


I find it that you can get to "Rome" many many of times - but each time it would be beautiful in a different way - and speaking of "way" I always like to travel in different paths - you never know what you may find during.


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

eddieg said:


> Notice the emphasize on the fact that the person you were speaking to is a salesman :laugh:
> 
> As for the hiss of the tweeters - It could be a way too less forgiving high pass filter for tweeters that have way too much power at their higher end.
> 
> ...


very interesting, as usual. and nice thoughts, i like it as it is not all about technic. I will check your suggestions

meanwhile...
I bought new speakers !
yeah, I couldn't resist. I was surprised that a local shop had AUDISON speakers and I bought their best : a AUDISON K6 kit : 165mm woofers + tweeters

It should be interesting

once again, the name is a joke ; "son" means sound in french so : AUDISON ? to put SON in a AUDI ?? seriously ?? :laugh: 

And my question to you dear Eddieg : audison has this little midrange, VOCE 3.0 that fits in my dashboard : any thoughs about this little guy ?

I check the midrange you suggested and 88mm is my maximum diameter ( i will even have to grind some bit away ) : the only ones that fits from your list is the carbon c3x


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Hey  

Well the K6 is also a part of the Voce series but their best and highest are the Thesis line which was discontinued and now are again manufactured at version 2! 

But currently only the tweeters are available and woofers are still expected a new release.

The Thesis are out of this earth sounding speakers! 

The Voce series are more on par with Hertz series somewhat between the mille to the hi-energy lines. 

The Voce 3.0 is supposed to be equivalent to the ML70 from hertz for what I recall it is a very good midrange but it is the Thesis line "voce" midrange which is one of the most amazing midranges I've ever heard - too bad though they are not going to publish a new release for this one, the thesis line for what I know would continue to version 2 as a 2 way set only. 

Thesis line: 

Audison TH Speakers

Voce line: 

Audison Voce Speakers


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

thanks for the quick reply. by " their best " , i meant the shop's best. I red about the thesis line but even if it was available, i'm not sure I would put so much money in it.
I will try to get the little 3.0 midrange just for the fun of having 6 loudspeakers from the same brand, which never happened ( and isn't a guarantee of a better sound ! )

it's funny because right now i run the HERTZ MILLE 165mm in my doors. It's the previous version, like the picture i attached ( found on internet ) 

and it's a good loudspeaker : dynamic, powerful, it bring depth to the sound stage.
I like how it completes the little subwoofers.
I have some peaks i had to flaten with the equalizer but it is not perfect .

I can't wait to hear if the audison is better or bitter !


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Comparing them to the Hertz Mille you might be disappointed. 

But if I had a redundant amount of money in my hands and I would have spent it on speakers the Thesis would be the first in line, they are absolutely among my favorite three series I loved most. 

And I've heared Bewith, Scan speaks, ADS, HAT (I've owned a full line of Legatia SE - twice!!!), Morel (My favorite brand yet till this day) 

The Thesis always get me unprepared, jaws down.


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

eddieg said:


> Comparing them to the Hertz Mille you might be disappointed.
> 
> But if I had a redundant amount of money in my hands and I would have spent it on speakers the Thesis would be the first in line, they are absolutely among my favorite three series I loved most.
> 
> ...


very nice sum up, that's what i wanted to know. so you had all this speakers in your car ? nice !

now how much thesis is actually in the voce ? hmm... the voce 3.0 is about 120 Eur
I will try to find a shop that send them to my little country, any suggestion ?

In the meanwhile I have to give the HELIX C2M dome I got another try.


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Ahhh no  

The one's I've had from the known brands are Morel, RenAudio (Morel USA or their Israeli equivalent Omega Audio which is Morel's biological brother owned company - the one I've had was the triumph tweeter which is a Supremo based) 

I've had many many sets of this brand and still am using them today.

I've had the elate series, the millenium (old puls series) the Dotech series, Elate and as well Hybrid ovation. 

I've tried few products from Infinity but mostly I liked their Kappa and Kappa perfect series. 

And for about 6 years I was installing in my car Hybrid Audio Technology Legatia series (still using the L1V1 in my current setup, had the R2 which are amazing but the L1V1 8Ohms works best for me).

In my own cars it had always been either Morel or HAT but we have here a small community and we have had a lot of get togethers... A good friend of mine had a full Thesis setup at two of his cars - HV Venti with a custome built Xover for the Thesis orchestra And I've heared the Thesis line on at least different other five cars 

Each time! each time... no matter if the system was tuned or not, the sound comming out of them just had that wow effect. 

I can say the very same for Scan speaks products but the Thesis I find to be a bit more to my liking. 

And yet, I always somehow, fallback to Morel speakers - They just have that "I don't know" thing in them that feels to me like home and I am not sure at all it is really sound related but the fact that it is manufactured in the small country were I live, that warm sound, that warm climate - call it magic but it works on me. 


As for how to get them - contact Eletromedia which are Audison and Hertz main distributes, they work on a solistic contract basis with dealers at each region (just like an Italian mob  -> How do I know, a very good friend of mine is their local dealer at Israel. 

Locate your local dealer or just make a special order from the shop you purchased the Voce from, most shops in small countries don't keep in their inventory the top merchandise as it is very hard to sell so there is no point ordering without a customer making a preorder in advance. 

Just to be clear, I am a Hi-Tech industry engineer, I don't make my livelihood from car audio. I do run a local car audio forum out here but it is strictly by volunteering - I do this for the sake of my heart.


Oh! and one amazing set of Mid-Tweeters I simply adored were the CDT ES-02 they are less than 200$ a couple and they are simply outstanding!!! 

The real variety of speaker brands I've had were with subwoofers - Among the good ones:

Infinity Kappa 12"
AuraSound NS 513 10" 
AA Assasin 
SounDown Audio SA-10 
SEAS Lotus 300i 
Alpine SGB-BR44 
DD 8 Inch in a TL enclosure
CDT QES-820 
JL Microsub 1W8 
JL AUDIO 8W7 (sealed) 
ARC Audio BLACK10 
And probably had a few more but these are the ones worth mentioning.

Currently Audsion Basso (Thesis line) which is simply the best sub I ever had or heared!!! For me that is.


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

very interesting, lots of stuff I don't even know
I googled CDT ES 02 and found your review on amazon !

"
I've bought them with hesitation though I always wanted to try CDT drivers as reading many fantastic reviews about the TM.

I was looking for a wide bander speaker that could act both as Midrange and a Tweeter and up so far was using a HAT L3SE which is a brilliant driver but was looking for something which has a frequency range that can extend up to the 20KHz.

The ES-02 were just that thing and at a very good price tag, I couldn't refuse.

Installed them in a tiny hair gel round boxes I've had at volume of 0.15 Litter - could not cross them very low due to that fact, crossed them at 1.2Khz at 12db slope and they are simply fantastic!

I do admit they are better midrange than tweeter but when aimed directly on axis - they are pretty awesome as tweeters as well.

The sound is simply sweet, detailed and very natural sounding.
They have a lot of warmth to them without distorting and at the same time are cleaned and very detailed.

Highly recommended to people that listen to music up to the 120 decibels (sane volume listening and a bit more).
Highly recommended to those who wish to avoid the use of a tweeters or to those who are looking for a simply incredible midrange driver at a relative low cost.

Eddie "

sound very cool , i'm definitely tempted ! 
- can this little guy play loud ?
- will they work on my dashboard in the stock location , free air ?
I know it isn't an audiophil setup but i'm not willing to build a pod for a midrange right now

I will the other refs you gave, thanks again for the detailed answer

today i worked a bit the voice from this great tune from simply red
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKtqjnoT7Sw

I listened quite loud, as usual : the hertz mille give mike's voice some harsh sounds at various freqs around 500 - 1khz : too much to correct ! how come ?


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Ummm For the CDTs look right here (taken from my previous car build thread)

You can definitely use them free air but don't cut them below 2Khz at slope 6 that way
Or don't go below 900Hz at 24db slope


As for the tuning of Simply Red - can't tell without taking measurments and that as well does not fully assure that just by looking at graphs it would be possible to tell specifically if there is an install issue or a tuning issue.

But as a rule of thumb when I hit a problematic musical part, I play it over and over again sometimes each speaker apart or sometimes by just removing one speaker (mute option) until I pin point were the issue is sourced from. 

Then I try to cut the frequency range until the issue is eliminated letting me narrow down on exactly its whereabouts and only then I try to attack it using the EQ 

If the EQ does not improve the results or hardly makes a change then I suspect either an issue at the driver it self or the install. 

If you can move that frequency area to be played by one of the other speakers - it may be a good way to work around it 

For example with the CDTs I could go all the way down to 1200hz on slope 6 when I ran than in the enclosures but it does not mean in fact that my midabss could not play up to the 1800hz better than the CDTs - in fact, this is how I've ended up - the CDTs were cut between 1800hz to 6Khz


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

those little CDT look so promising, i had to order them ! Eddie I checked your review and i can't wait to test them !

meanwhile I tried the midrange DOME HELIX C2M again. I compaired them directly to the fountek cone midrange : one fountek on the left side, and the helix c2m on the right

check out the picture : the dome is as big as the cone ! the cone is dusty, it was time to clean it after 2 years...
see how I had to cut the poor fountek to fit it in the dashboard. tight fit . the dome doesn't fit in the dashboard !

i could play with various cut off : from 400Hz to 3.15KHz with various slope : 6Db/oct, 12Db/oct

I also tested various position for the helix dome : flat in the dashboard or facing to me
I tested each midrange alone or with the other speakers 

I tested some brian adams for the guitars, mike hucknall and robert cray for the voices, some hoobastank for the dynamic and guitars

I like the fountek because they are soft and can play loud. nothing hurt my hears, no correction needed. I found them to play at best from 2.5KHz @ 6Db/oct to 4KHz @ 12 Db/oct. I can't go lower because of the dashboard : it has a horn effect and the 400 - 800 hz range comes much louder


the helix c2m has a nice dynamic, much details and plays on the clear side : but man, i must clearly have a problem : this thing are agressiv ! I had to lower the 2Khz + 3.15Kz - 6Db because each guitars just ripped my ears ! but even with this correction and a soft cut off like 2.5Khz @ 6Db/oct , those dome fatigue my ears...

I made the same conclusion 2 years ago when putting them back in their box

Which is a pity because these are supposed to be audiophil loudspeaker 

I guess i am not meant for too much "audiophilness " because I like heavy metal ! in my opinion, a good setup should be able to play loud without nothing hurting your ears


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Wow  - I did not expect to have such an influence so I hope you won't get disappointed, after all, it is a matter of personal taste. 

But they are truly (the CDTs) outstanding drivers - really! 

Dome mid ranges have the tendency to be "peaky" in the mid of their range, if you cut them narrow enough, aiming them is almost meaningless and as well you get a better control over their volume so you can attenuate as needed the speaker it self and use less EQ correction. 

Up to the 800hz area - if you are having issues with your midranges that you can't fix by changing the install (aiming, location, harnessing and restraining) then don't sweat it too much because you midbasses would probably be able to play these frequencies better if no less and as well frequencies until the 800hz-ish are omni directional and if that is not enough most 6.5 speakers would play at a very wide disperse/angle until 700-800hz so you can get away with it easily. 

Enjoy the ES-02! I can't wait for you to review them.

They are based on a very cheap tang bands speakers but CDT did something to them, they treated them and designed them to fit better a car install - for what they cost, it is a no brainer even if their original model from tang band are way much cheaper.


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

of course you have influence man ! the force is strong in you !

I appreciated that you have a nice and understanding approach : I know i got some flaws and I don't have the good way of working on my setup : I probably made tons of error and wasted money ( for example i had DLS dome that were probably rebranded morel and i never properly used them and let them rust in the dust ! )

anyway, the little CDT look interesting and it is a good suggestion


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

by the way, what can a heavy metal fan do to improve his car hifi setup ?

PUT SOME STEEL ! :laugh:


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

yeah i had some fun because that is an old idea i have seen on german cars ( i use to read car hifi magazin in germany 20 years ago...) : put a heavy metallic ring so that the loudspeaker sits on a heavy base to counteract any vibrations : this would bring more dynamic

i didn't take the time to make things properly because I mad 2 changes at the same time : new loudspeakers + steel rings
I was in a hurry ! sorry Eddie ! 

so i can't compair for sure what the rings really bring

but i did compair the audison voce 165mm k6 with steel ring to the hertz mille 165mm on MDF rings : one in the left door and the other on the right door 

of course the audison voce is brand new and not broke in yet so...

the first obvious impression is that the audison voce is a real kickbass : no other speaker i ever had make so much bass : i doesn't want to play like a subwoofer, it play like a midbass : which is very nice to complete properly a subwoofer : this brings a more detailed bass. The hertz doesn't bring so much details in the bass range

I used the 50Hz @ 12 Db/oct cut off I had then i changed it to 40Hz @ 12Db/oct : the audison can handle this !

the other obvious thing is that the hertz mille plays the upper range ( about 1KHz to 2KHz ) much more clearly and detailed : which could be a problem in the a 2 way setup : but it isn't my case : I use a small midrange cut of at 2.5KHz @ 6Db/oct

I tried to compair some details in the midrange to check if the audison would play in the same range as the more expensive hertz mille and i think that yes, it should be ok ( i compaired some echos in some voices ) 

so here you go : i'm breaking in 2 brand new audison voce 165mm with some nice heavy rings. I will take this time to stop thinking too hard about the setup.
Sometimes you got to laid back and stop thinking too much about the unique ideal setup for all the songs you like
Does it exist anyway ?

here some pictures : i mounted the steel ring to MDF ring with some grey sticky stuff


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

The audison line are resembling PA equipment (professional amplification or PRO speakers)

They use surrounds that mostly seen on pro speakers, they are very sensitive (SPL) and have a higher FS and smaller low end than most car midbasses/woofers have. 

For example I have examined the specifications of the Mille Legend 8 inch in front of the Audison Prima 8 inch (now I know that this is entry level in front of a flagship product) and you can see how much wider to both extent the frequency of the Mille legend is but if I will use the Prima 8 inch as a big diameter mid bass only meaning it will play any where beteen the 90hz to 700hz - 

Do I really need to spend all that much on the Mille??? 

Probably not. 

But if I would use a 2 way set then the Mille is the right way to go. 

So it depends. 

As for having multiple presets in appose to one preset for all music types - I guess no rules about that either. 

Of course, different type of music would sound better or worse on a different kind of power response, spectral balance what ever we name it... 

But I find it very fatiguing (I hope I got the word right) - I get tired of going between presets very fast and don't like it, it drives me nuts. 

So I prefer the "master" preset approach and actually I have to say that I am able to dial in to such a preset but the compromise, the way I find it, is at the choice of speakers 

For example if you go for soft tweeters like Morel Elate for example, you may find it very difficult to dial in a good setup at which distortion included music such as heavy metal, would sound well for another example applause, standing ovations -> sound more like rain drops than hand clapping etc etc 

But Jazz, vocals and other relaxed tracks are simply a piece of heaven to listen to.

Not that it is impossible to get it right for such types of music with soft speakers but it require a lot of work and tuning and at the end you may find yourself killing the sound just to get it right for one type of listening. 


And then again - even if you do get to one real good setup, how long does it take before you get board of a system tune or of the result of some of your speakers before you will change that anyways? right? 


As for DLS and Morel - it as a very old history and there are many versions of it but for what I remember Morel only shared for a certain point of time the same speaker baskets for some of their series other than that no real connection between the two.

If I am not wrong (need a memory check anyways) Dynaudio and Morel had common engineers and so did DLS and Dynaudio for what I know (not sure if true or not) so it explains why many of the three vendors speakers during the history resemble each other when you simply look at them, but no real connection other than that.


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

yeah indeed, the perfect allround setup doesn' exist

you always got to make at least some bass and treeble mods between CD's and it's true that jazz/vocals music would need an "audiophil" setup : full clarity, nothing hidden ! which is painful on loud electric guitars !

maybe that's only me ?

or maybe rock and roll / heavy metal is meant to hurt the ears ??! 
one of my favourite band, the FOO FIGHTERS made their album " waisting light " home and as soon as a first CD was burnt they went in theirs car and tested it : then they tuned the sound in studio to fit the car. 
I guess they added some loudness effect. i also guess they had stock audio system in their cars
but this album sounds nice and can be played loud without struggle

for example :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbpqZT_56Ns

when listening other CDs from any artist, I always have in mind : how do they record this CD ? how much did they care ? are stereo effects really equally leveled between left and right ?
why did they add so much treeble ??

anyway
the audison voce 165mm i installed in the doors seem to do a nice job so far, I can't complain about them. YET !
I like their good job in the bass section and they complete very nicely the 88mm midrange, nothing hurt my ears so far

eddie g : i'm reading the complete " 2" thread " : i'm not finished yet but it's interesting to see the same good old debate about sound physics in a car : each person has their own point of view but some are more opened to discussion
one thing is sure : stubborned people who don't doubt about their knowledge don't go far ! you got to be open minded and question yourself !

as caraudio is mostly about cheating, you can do whatever sounds better !

for instance, i always put identical cut off between left and right speakers

I recently played and tried different slopes and it improved the center stage : for example, the 165mm in doors : 
- Left 50Hz @ 18Db/Oct - 2Khz @ 12 Db/oct
- right 50Hz @ 12 Db/oct - 1,6 KHz @ 12Db/oct
I did the because of the bad aiming of those speakers and bass phase troubles

same thing for the midrange :
- left 2.5Khz @ 6 Db/oct - 4 Khz @ 18 Db/oct
- right 2.5Khz @ 6 Db/oct - 4 Khz @ 12 Db/oct
i did this to hide too much "shh" effect on the left side. but i'm still working on it...

a hobby in which you are ever evolving should be quite boring uh ?


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

I remember that on one of the threads about the es-02 I was experimenting a lot with psycho acoustic effects so I intentionally wrote stuff that tends to make many people angry. 

For example the fact that some people reported a change of stage height when they reverse a single speaker polarity - for example only the right midbass is playing, some people report that the bass such as a drum, changes its height.

Surprisingly it worked on me too even though I know it is total BS - so how come it worked? -> because I convinced my self, I wanted to believe in it.

And just like all rest of the "scientists" out there I know it is not really possible - yet our mind makes it so as long as it chooses to believe. 

One of the so many various reasons why such a hobby can never be boring.


Yes, some people tend to be narrow minded, ego driven, rude and none accepting different views and opinions if they find it non scientific or simply wrong if it does not fit their knowledge. 

Yes I've seen people tune other peoples cars by looking at their graphs only! 
And so on and so on...

But you know what - if it works, I'll accept it! Then I will try to understand why it worked. 

Having in addition to all the above a troublesome identity does not help it a bit neither 

I try to be open minded, knowing that we are humans after all. (first of all and most of all).


The ES-02 mounting diameter (inner ring cut) is 52-53mm by the way. 


What ever works, but with an educated mind.


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

you are one little kinky fellow ! lol , don't fool around, some people take caraudio very seriously ! lol

anyway, even if you asked me, i will never reverse only one speaker !

but I did buy one very interesting device from one very interesting man : the french ingénieur m. CLAUDE CARPENTIER

Syst?me audio automobile : car audio system - Stereo Controls

he works like a mad scientist on caraudio acoustic and I bought him the IMAGER 5 : this little box corrects the phase for door loudspeakers
It can totally replace the usual time alignement
you also can adjust left and right to get a perfect sound stage

http://www.stereocontrols.com/upload/pdf/Notice DBS-IMAGER.pdf

and it works ! compaired to the usual TA, voices coming from corrected speakers sound much more realistic, as if the singer has a real chest !
bass also gets better, more direct and dynamic
I used it a long time but as i went for medium on the dashboard it sounded ripped apart : because the dash worked on TA and the doors on phase adjustement
I somehow never got both to work together


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Looks like a very interesting old school technique of phase shifting/leveling and bass interpolation. 

I really liked at the days AudioControl's stuff. 

I hope I'll get some time to post my current setup.


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

i added a picture and a link in my previous post

how is your french ?

a propos, check this picture of an ES2 : is 53mm right at this spot ? I will use them like this guy

thank you eddie-G AKA "hey- DJ "

and yes, let me know how is your new car


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

I've studied a bit French at high school actually so I can understand a bit but we live in the days of google translate so... 

Yes the size for the ES-02 is correct. 

If I take of its mounting ring I can seat it right into the housing of my Subaru legacy original mid-tweeters (after cutting away the speaker membrane and basket from the housing) it is a legacy model of 2010-2012 it is supplied with 2.5" tweeters that can also be replaced with a 3.5" driver as long as the screw holes gap is 92mm which is industry standard.


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

is it like on the outback ?

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-6vfNuPf3QS8/learn/2010-2014-subaru-outback.html


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Yes, 

The outback is basically a station wagon legacy (estate) with lifted suspensions. 

Mine is a sedan legacy but it is basically the same car.


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

received the CDT audio little midrange

cute little things. i took off the aluminium ring to mount them directly on my home made steel adapter.
the goal is to let them breath as much as possible

I prepared the steel adapter thanks to the diameter Eddie G confirmed me.

I used this grey sticky stuff " body caulking " : it sticks but you can take it off and adjust it. It can stand high temperature ( warm sunny days ) without moving or shrinking

I mounted one CDT audio on one side on my dashboard and could make a first direct compairison to the fountek ff85k on the other side of the dashboard

this was just to get a first glimpse.

thanks to the pioneer processor i could cut all the other loudspeaker and swith from one midrange to the other

i could test various cut offs frequencie

i first used the same cut off freqs as before : 2.5Khz @ 6Db/oct to 5 Khz @ 12 Db/oct

first obvious thing is that the CDT show much more dynamic. drumers strike harder ! i like that !
the CDT also give more room informations : as if some one turned on the lights in a dark room ! you can see what's the size of the room ! 
the fountek also gaved informations but somehow they lack of depth. 


I always liked that the fountek can play very loud but that's because they are soft, thus in fact missing true dynamic
YOU DON'T HAVE TO PLAY LOUD TO HAVE DYNAMIC : i sometimes forget that and like to turn the volume button very loud to "feel" the music...
I guess we all love to put music loud and feel the GOOD vibrations ! that's a privilege you can have in your car daily !

but can i get loud AND audiophil ? i'm not sure about that...

as i tested if the CDT audio can pay loud, some frequencies started to hurt my ears : colorations ? need to get played in ?
I will spend more time tuning the equalizer but i already shaved some 3.15Khz away...

cut off freq : these little guys can indeed go quite low : i tried some 800 hz @ 12 Db/oct and if softly used and well equalized the CDT audio midrange could do the job.
But i felt them more confortable at higher cut off freqs and soft slopes like 1.25 Khz @ 6 Db/oct. I will study longer this when both are mounted...

I can't wait to discover their full potential, so thanks EDDIE G for the tip, its a very nice product !


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## eddieg (Dec 20, 2009)

Happy to see these pics!

These are awesome little drivers and yes, the imaging with them is very clear.
They are very natural sounding speakers.

Their fs is somewhere around 150Hz measured in a sealed box if I recall about 3L so free air I'm quite sure it would be higher, to be honest I wouldn't go anywhere lower than the 700-800hz with them at 24db! when they are free air.

For 6db don't go lower than 1500hz free air, in a small sealed enclosure don't go below 1200hz at 6db 

Consider using RTA to find where your peaks are at "problematic" or should I say "challenging" tracks - then it would give you a good idea where to "shave off" with the eq. 

Going load and still being clear is a mixture of signal clarity and being in the correct house curve. 

The better SNR, THD, damping factor, channel separation you'll get from your amplifiers and HU/DSPs the cleaner your signal would be. 

The better interlink in between your devices would be - the cleaner and quieter your system would be, this is why I chose a FullDA technology for my system topology - Optics do not pick up noise from the environment - it is not really a signal but an information stream more to say, if the noise is evident in the recording or transmitted as audio from the source to begin with, of course you will hear it.

The better your source of recordings are - the cleaner your system would be. 

The less reflections you'll get from your car and vibrations - the cleaner it would be. 

Electrical system efficiency and the amplifiers PSU efficiency are as well a major factor.

Using power capacitors as noise filters and stabilizers etc etc 

It all comes in to play. 

All the above would enable you to maintain clarity as the volume rises up. 


Keep playing around with them, see if you can give them 15 to 30 degree angle and use them as wide range tweeters as well.


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## Asgardloki (Dec 22, 2020)

This has been a really great read, thanks for sharing, I have a 2017 A4 i'm looking to upgrade the system on and have found this very helpful.

what was the ultimate speaker setup you had in the car?


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