# Making some 2 way fronts...need help



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I've never built any floor standing front speakers and I'm kinda excited to get into it. These will not necessarily be for me; in fact, if they turn out well they will be for a friend of mine. He doesn't have a sub so they will be the main/only speakers in the system. I've never done anything custom but sub stages so I'm not very experienced with crossovers and pairing things...so I'll need help 

*Goals*
-Impact and good bass response even down low without a sub
-Great Sq in all areas
-Fairly efficient
-Under $300

Initially I had started with the idea to go with a dual 6.5" setup with a single tweeter, but, keeping it under the target price range will be tough. So I've come to the conclusion that a single ported 8" woofer with a single tweeter would be a good option. I'll get the advantage in cone area for output and it will also have a lower Fs when comparing to the same driver in 6.5" form.

I've sort of landed on the Peerless Exclusive 830884 8" woofer. Great Sq, very nice low end without sacrificing smoothness in the higher frequency spectrum. I've modeled them out in UniBox and I can get decent response pretty far down with the suggested 44L tuned to 31hz. Madisound's site says to use a 2" port but I feel like an 8" speaker would need a larger port. Would I be better off with a 3" port tuned to the same frequency?

For the tweeter I was thinking of using the Dayton DC28F-8 1-1/8" Silk Dome Tweeter. Fairly cheap but I've read good reviews and they seem to be a decent value. I've read that they can be crossed over very low with good results which is something that would be useful considering that I'll be pairing it with an 8. 

I don't really know how to do a custom X-overs so I was looking at some of the pre-built ones that partsexpress has. If I ended up using the above drivers; what would my X-over frequency be? I was thinking 2500hz would be decent and would keep the Peerless driver from having to play too high.

So how does my plan sound? All comments welcome; I know I need the help!

PS: Links to both drivers...
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_257&products_id=1605
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-070


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

I think you should do something along the lines of an 8 or 10" woofer, with a 2" driver for the top end.

That will keep you crossover point low, keeping polar response good, which increases off-axis response. Top end will suffer marginally, but not much if you pick the right 2" driver. 

The Linkwitz Pluto utilizes a design like this. He uses the L16 for the bottom end, but you can do something with better low end extension.

Maybe something along these lines. They're cheap, and will extend very low.

The enclosures will be fairly large, but what the hell, you only live once.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_258&products_id=222

Find a 2" Tang Band driver that looks pretty to you, fork over the $15.00-$20.00 each, and call it a day. I recommend the TB specifically because, while they don't have any extension below 500 hz, they're efficient enough to match up to a larger mid. 

Of course this will not be an audiophile grade system, but it will be cheap, dig deep, and sound good, given the crossover work is well done. 

I'll have some tips for you if you go this route that will greatly simplify crossover design.


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

So are you saying that a setup like that would sound better than my original plan?

You're right, the box for those would be quite large and I'm wanting to keep these kinda smallish if at all possible so I'm not really sure that would work out for me. 

I looked at a bunch of Tang Band drivers but I didn't find one that I liked that was 8ohms. Only reason I wanted the 8ohms was because that crossover system that PE sells needed an 8ohm tweet but the mid could be either 8 or 4ohm.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Oh, you're going to want to design your own crossover. Like I said, I can give you tips to greatly simplify the crossover design for a system like the one I suggested. 

You can probably get away with a first order on both ends. We can take that one offline if you want.

If you're looking for a smaller box, you'll lose the low end extension. The Dayton RS225, or 270 could be an option. They'll need much smaller enclosures. 

However, I wouldn't hesitate on this driver. http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_257&products_id=1512

Nice low end, down to 32 hz in the right enclosure. 

The PE crossover is a joke. There's no tweeter attenuation, the crossover point is arbitrary, and no baffle step compensation. In other words, complete crap and a waste of money.

Google "FRD Consortium". I unfortunately don't have the link with me on this computer. However, there is a great website that takes you through the loudspeaker building process that's fairly accurate without having to have a ton of measurement equipment at your disposal. It's all based on manufacturer specs and response graphs.

That's your best bet.

Loudspeaker design is extremely complicated and can be complicated enough to write disserations on. Just slapping two drivers together in a box, with a random crossover will yield nothing but complete crap.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Also take a look a look at the Dayton Classic series drivers. They actually dig pretty deep. The 6.5" is pretty impressive. It won't win any distortion competions, and it will yell at you when you drive it too hard, but for what you're looking to do, it might be a good, inexpensive option. Check out either the 8 or 10" option.

I'd still lean toward a 10" if you can find one that would require a suitably small enclosure. You can use the natural roll off of a 10" driver, coupled with the roll off of the baffle step, after compensation, which I'll recommend a simple inductor in series, targeted VERY low (i.e 150-200hz) which will compensate for the baffle step, while also aiding in top end roll off. Then you can build the 2" driver into a sealed enclosure giving a natural roll off on the bottom end. The TB drivers will have a roll off starting around 500 hz in a properly sized sealed enclosure. You add a cap, to once again combat baffle step, and you have a very simple crossover, with little phase offset. The target points of the crossover components will be determined by the enclosure, and the baffle itself. However, it's very doable, and VERY inexpensive.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Here's the link I was talking about.

http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/FRDtools.html


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

That M8a driver you suggested doesn't have very descriptive specs on their site; have you heard/used it before with good results? It's FS is about 2hz lower than the Peerless Exclusive 8" but it looks like the top end suffers significantly. The box requirements look to be about the same between the two drivers.

I didn't know there was that much to learn about crossovers. If you wouldn't mind helping me design something I would really like to try and make one specifically for the application like you suggested.

I like the idea of a 10 but like I said; space is an issue. Also, I'd like to keep the number of drivers down to 2 if possible. That being said, I'd sacrifice a little low end to make sure everything up top is clean.

My original plan is loosely based on this parts express DIY...http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Noah8

I was planning on using a design similar to that with the Peerless Exclusive 8. Would there be a problem using that driver in that type of arrangement? I'm sure the Dayton DC200 is fine but I want flawless top end response and I feel like it will fall short there.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

I will never be okay with a 8" + tweeter for a two way system. Just too many compromises. The tweeter really needs to be spectacular to make that kind of system worthwhile, and I just can't think of any budget tweeters that fit the bill.

The loudspeakers that you linked to are probably nice little speakers. However, I can GUARANTEE that polar, and power response sucks. On-axis they're probably decent enough.

However, taking from the design, I don't see an reason not to the Dayton DC200-8. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-310

Here's a link on ebay for the Tang Band driver. It's half the price of PE, so it's a pretty damn good deal.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Speaker-Driver-...oryZ3276QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The HiVi 2" drivers look nice as well, however, their sensitivity is really low. 

I say go for the above that I've linked to, and you can build this system for less than $100.00 (not including materials). 

If you want to stay simple, and feel overwhelmed, go with the 8" design you linked to, and just copy that. 

I think if you follow the instructions on that website I linked you to, that you'll get much more satisfaction out of the final product. A lot more work, but it will be something you designed. And in the end, you'll have a much greater understanding of "loudspeaker" design. Then you'll understand why I rant about crossovers. 

I can help guide you through the process, and offer suggestions and tips. However, the legwork will have to be done by you. Feel free to ask questions.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

When you figure out your baffle step compensation. See where your sensitivity is on the 8".

If you're sitting around 80 db, then go with the HiVi A2S, for cheaper, smaller solution. If you want more sensitivity, double up the 8's (I know bigger cabinet), and use the Tang Band. 

The Tang Band's that I listed in the ebay link tested out at 89-90 db 1w/1m. So, they're very sensitive. The drawback being low end extension. However, I haven't found a 2" driver yet, that I'd use below 500 hz due to harmonic distortion. So, the TB is a winner in my book.

The HiVi A2S looks like it has a better top end than the Tang Band. I'd have to hear both together to make that determination. 

This could be a very fun project. I love this ****.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Damnit, just did some leg work. 

The Dayton Classic 8" will work well in a 1.25 cuft vented box, tuned to 30-32 hz. 

There's not enough Xmax to have a ton of power handling down low, but the drivers are modeling out to 87 db 1w/1m which is pretty nice. Have to see where they are after baffle step is compensated for.

Man, I could do this project for SOOOOO cheap. 

Throw a 20 watt padding resistor (basically a dump resistor) on the 2" driver to raise impedance, and lower sensitivity, and I bet I could build this crossover with 3-4 components. That's a pretty nice challenge. I might just do that.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Autiophile said:


> From what I've read on the PE forum the a3n is even better. Here's John Krutke's FR plot for the a3n. I'm trying to get the details on the Rubyks project with these little drivers.


Breakup on the top end concerns me. It's not audible on a lot of content, but when you notice it, it's really annoying. I find it particularly bad on techno, and metal where the drummer is smashing his cymbals like a maniac.

Plus, I just find, I don't need the low end that a 3" provides. I know that's just me, but it's hard to get past. 

If I were doing a couple of side firing 10's, with a line array of 3" drivers, that's a different story. But talk about large cabinets.


----------



## Preacher (May 8, 2006)

I've got a set of 8" two ways actively crossed in my daugter's room using the A2s and these seas woofers 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Seas-CA21-8-shi...VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

They don't sound too bad, but with a better design I imagine they could sound pretty good. 

Impedance might be a deal breaker though.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

I can't have another project where I'm actually modeling and testing going on right now, but thanks for the offer. 

The thing that's killing me about the A2, and B2 is the sensitivity. The light paper cone of the TB really helps out in that area. However, I'm SURE that distortion is increased on the TB (F2 is probably pretty high) due to the light paper cone, that's probably flexing. In this case, I'm willing to be it's a fair trade off.

I'm currently starting a project where I'm building a WMTMW using the TB in a MTM configuration with the ND20 tweeter, and a pair of Aura NS4's for the woofers and low end. 

So, another project with 2" drivers just isn't feasible right now. 

However, I may model up a design, just to see how it works out. I'd prefer the OP to do some legwork though. He could really benefit from this.


----------



## Griffith (Jul 10, 2008)

MiniVanMan said:


> Just slapping two drivers together in a box, with a random crossover will yield nothing but complete crap.


Fortunately for me, I've had a lot of luck doing this.  

And the sound I get is pretty damn good.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Griffith said:


> Fortunately for me, I've had a lot of luck doing this.
> 
> And the sound I get is pretty damn good.


Are you trying to start a fight?


----------



## Griffith (Jul 10, 2008)

Not at all. 

I'm just saying that your statement was a bit strong, of how mating drivers with random crossovers will make a system sound like crap. Thing is, I've had the opportunity of owning some reputable bookshelf setups. I simply switched drivers and the differences were night and day in terms of output, clarity, and overall performance. It did not sound like crap. Performance was improved.


----------



## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

can you build this for $100?

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ATLS300

i doubt it.

i have a pair of these and they are GREAT.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ATWS15


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Alright, just got back from kicking my own ass on the mountain biking trail....looks like you guys were busy while I was gone.


First off, thanks for all the suggestions guys, much more than I was expecting. I just want to point out that I have no idea what a baffle step is; can we get a quick explanation on that? Like was stated above, those dayton 8 didn't have very much Xmax so that was my first concern wit it. 

So in that partsexpress project that I was looking at; what did they do to make using the dayton tweeter and an 8" speaker sound good? You guys seem to be against it but obviously they had good results with it. 

I do really like the idea of using a 2" instead of the tweeter; that could be really interesting. That would allow me to use some VERY interesting 8" speakers since they don't have to play as high.

I'm going to have to do a little more browsing.


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I just found these on madisound....http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_257&products_id=1509

They model up well in Unibox but they run out of Xmax down about 38hz when I have them in about 40L tuned to 35. The frequency graphs look good but they run out of Xmax and that's all she wrote. They are on sale though so if you guys thought they would work that would be one of my picks.

Another driver I spotted on Madisound was this Seas H511
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_257&products_id=834

Great response up high that would lead me to believe that I could actually get away with a two way alignment. The site says they stay totally smooth to about 3k. I had a look at the PDF spec sheet but it wont let me zoom in on the graph so I can't really tell what it's doing. Modeling them in Unibox they look good down low. Not quite as good as that F8 I listed but the Seas has more Xmax and wont break up down low when it runs out of excursion.


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Autiophile, are these the HiFi mids you were talking about?


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Griffith said:


> Not at all.
> 
> I'm just saying that your statement was a bit strong, of how mating drivers with random crossovers will make a system sound like crap. Thing is, I've had the opportunity of owning some reputable bookshelf setups. I simply switched drivers and the differences were night and day in terms of output, clarity, and overall performance. It did not sound like crap. Performance was improved.


Autiophile handled it nicely. My statement was not strong.

For the OP, baffle step is a condition where you have a 6 db difference between your bottom end and your top end based on baffle width. It's unavoidable, but controllable. Google "Baffle Step Compensation" and see what you come up with. 

It's a concern because your low end will be about 6 dbs lower than your midrange in the 1khz range. It really depends on the width of the baffle. It basically happen when the waveform starts to wrap back around the sides of the loudspeaker. You'll read around about BSC and see that people recommend that you keep your speakers about 2' from the wall. This is given that baffle step is compensated for. The baffle, when combined with a wall will change your step response. The reason that you don't put a loudspeaker up against a wall is due to diffraction artifacts that happen because you have a bandwidth of wavelengths that will have loss due to the depth of the loudspeaker from front to back. For example a 10" wide x 10" deep loudspeaker would have a varying decrease in output for wavelengths between 10" and 20" long. Not to mention that you'll get phasing problems with reflected waves over 20" arriving later than waves less that 10" long. 

Clear as mud? It's hard to explain, but once you understand it, it seems like a simple concept.

The thing to take from this is baffle step is a critical part of loudspeaker design. 

Take a look at my "Basic Guide to Crossover Part II" thread. I model up a loudspeaker in there, where you'll notice that the response of the driver at 1k is about 6 db higher in the graph, when mounted in it's enclosure, on it's baffle, than the manufacturer measurement which is taken on an IEC baffle. 

Again, it's not hard to compensate for, but ignoring it because you don't understand it is not a good idea.


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> Is there supposed to be a link or a picture? I'm not seeing anything currently.


blahhhh, yeah...I forgot the link
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_234_263&products_id=1499


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Autiophile said:


> Nope, those aren't the ones I have. Here's the a2s http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?=&PartNumber=297-426&raid=1&rak=hi_vi_a2s
> 
> and the a3n on the right in this pic
> http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=730&d=1221163312


They look nice; very wide frequency spectrum. What is the difference between the two other than the obvious mounting shapes?

I found these Tang Bands that will go up to 20k; any idea if they are worth a look?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-815


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Wow, there are so many of these little wide range drivers on their site that I didn't even know about. I think one of those with a good 8 that can hit low would do outstanding. Now I just have to pick some out.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

ItalynStylion said:


> Wow, there are so many of these little wide range drivers on their site that I didn't even know about. I think one of those with a good 8 that can hit low would do outstanding. Now I just have to pick some out.


You have to figure out the sensitivity of the 8" "after" baffle step compensation. Because it will be dramatically different than manufacturer advertised numbers. 

If you follow the instructions on the website I linked to, you'll learn how to model up different drivers. That's the best way to find out which driver will suit you best. It's a lot of work. But building a loudspeaker correctly is not a simple task.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

I said I wouldn't do it, but I'm going to. I have all the data loaded. Some from drivers I have lying around (the TB W852SH), and from the manufacturers (the Dayton DC200). 

The crossover is proving to be a bit more complicated than I initially thought it would. I've gotten close, but getting some peaking in areas that I'm not willing to say is acceptable. It's sort of unexplained at this point. In the next couple of days, I'll have a design ready, I think.


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

lol, couldn't resist could you?

Where were the peaks/problems? Was it more from the daytons or the TB's?


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

The Dayton has a nasty peak, and rising response in the 1-2k range. Trying to kill that so it doesn't affect the response of the TB driver is proving to be quite difficult. 

Due to the rising baffle step, which is somewhat compensated for by the dip in midrange response for the Dayton is causing some problem. On paper it looks like it should clean right up. However, adding filter components seems to excite it, and I'm getting problems. Not to mention the TB is experiencing baffle step as well.

So, killing the baffle step on both drivers is taking some serious components. However, when I go too high, to kill the baffle step, my phase gets thrown completely out of whack. 

Arrrrgggghhhhhhh!!!!! It's a challenge, but I'll get this SOB. Next step is throwing some contour filters at this thing.


----------



## Arc (Aug 25, 2006)

I have a pair of RS225's and a pair of TB 871's sitting around that I have always wanted to do something with. 

I am watching what goes on in here...


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Autiophile said:


> MVM, are you using soundeasy for your modeling?


SpeakerWorkshop. I'm a cheap bastard.

*Update*

Okay, I've settled on a simple First Order Series network. It seems the only way to get this to work is with a 6 db network. That's kind of what I thought going into this. A typical First Order Parallel (traditional) network might work as well, but I seem to be having the most luck with the Series. 

So, far it is the Series network with a Contour Network thrown in. It's only 4 components right now, but I need to notch the DC200's breakup, and that's kicking my ass. If that breakup wasn't there, I'd be done.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Okay, by the time I get the crossover figured out to make the DC200's work, I can spend a bit more money on a better driver.

This experience has taught me to look for a driver with a MUCH smoother roll off on the top end. That will eliminate just about all metal coned drivers. 

So, searching around, next up is this....

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_257&products_id=849

Being a 4 ohm driver, in series it will sum to close to 8 ohms. This should provide a very easy load on your typical HT receiver. 

We'll see how this goes. Just have to figure out low end extension. However, if this driver works the way I think it will, I'll end up with a 4 component crossover. SWEET!!!


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Funny you should post that driver. I had been looking at it too. It says the cone is made of wool and I wasn't sure if that was a good or a bad thing so I kept it on the back burner. Since it's a 4ohm are you suggesting that it be run with two of them in a single cabinet and then either a full range or a tweeter? 

They have a very high sensitivity rating and a fairly low FS. They could do pretty well.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

GOT IT!!!!

It's ugly, complicated, and not conventional, but it should be a working crossover.

The drivers are the Dayton DC200, and the TB W2-852SH.

I'll post the entire project, and details in a bit. However, it is completed, and it was a nightmare. RC contours, with RL notches in series, with a high Q notch cap as well. YUCK!


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Here's the crossover with the final response.










This is not a pretty crossover by any means.

You have a First Order Series network in L1 and C1. C2 and Rc1 are a contour network, C4 and L3 are a Parallel Notch filter. Both are parallel circuits ran in series with each other. In other words, C2/Rc1 are parallel, and C4/L3 are parallel. Then the two individual circuits are ran in series. C2/Rc1 is designed to smooth out midrange response. C4/L3 is designed to tame the very top end which had a nasty peak at 20khz.

C3/L2 is a notch that targets the DC200's breakup node. The breakup presents itself as a spike. This seems to null it out a bit. You might be able to live without C3, but L2 is critical. It's sort of a baffle step compensation.

I'm not sure how much all of this will cost. I'll find out the closest values I can find on Parts Express and then input them into the model and tweak as necessary. The preliminary cost is about a $100.00 in crossover components. That's worth crapping yourself over. The big cost is L1 and C1. That's pretty much unavoidable. C1 is $34.00 for the two. 

Again, I might need to look for another driver. However, I'm not sure I'll come up with much less in the cost arena. There will be sacrifices somewhere. I need good impedance data for the Silver Flute 8", so they'd have to be bought before I could model them up.


----------



## Preacher (May 8, 2006)

MVM do you own a pair of Hivi A2's ?


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

But the question I've been asking this whole time (that you've been ignoring) is why not use better drivers to avoid spending so much on crossover components and having to build a lavish crossover system?


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

ItalynStylion said:


> But the question I've been asking this whole time (that you've been ignoring) is why not use better drivers to avoid spending so much on crossover components and having to build a lavish crossover system?


Actually, it's the same amount of components as a stripped down LR4 network, or LR2 network with a Zobel, and L-Pad. 

The killer is the 75 uF cap. However, if you were running a standard two way with a tweeter it's be just as expensive. My Dayton project in the "Tutorials" section is a more expensive crossover. 

The only other driver I saw in the $30-40.00 price range that had a smooth enough response was the Silver Flute. I'd have to buy that driver and measure it for good impedance data. The money it would save in the crossover would about equal out with the higher cost of the driver.

There are two components of the crossover that could "possibly" be eliminated with drivers that have smoother responses. First is C4/L3 (I just noticed L3 isn't labeled. It's under C4), the other is L2/C3. Both are just a fraction of the overall cost. 

Any of the other options I would need to have drivers on hand. So, if somebody wants to send me an Aura Whisper, and some HiVi 2" drivers, then I can model the impedance, and made the crossover a bit simpler that way as well.

An 8 ohm wideband driver would allow me to cut the C1 value in half. That would save money, but at the cost of overall system efficiency. I could go to a typical parallel network though, and that would help system efficiency. 

However, there are two areas that drove the cost up, and that's due to the breakup of the DC200 and the TB W2-852SH. Find me two drivers that have no breakup, match up relatively close in cone material, and are inexpensive, and it'll probably still come out to close the same overall price. 

I welcome any opportunities to test out some drivers for a project like this. The HiVi B2S and A2S, while lacking sensitivity have the kind of response I'd need. Though, less efficient. The Whisper is a nice option as well, but with not as much top end. Probably not a bad thing as it has the efficiency I'd need. Once again though, I'd need at least one on hand to get good impedance data off of. 

There will be sacrifices everywhere, but in the end, for under $200.00 including material, you'd be VERY hard pressed to do better, for a complete pair of loudspeakers.


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

So going off what you told me; I'm looking for....
-8ohm speaker to keep the load down on the receiver
-Something with less break up high up in the spectrum
-Close in cone material
-fairly inexpensive.


I haven't modeled them yet, but I was able to find the full specs of those Hi-Vi M8a's that you posted earlier. Partsexpress has them for $10 cheaper and lists the specs. If you paired those with the Peerless 2" full range 830970 do you think it would be at least worth modeling up?

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_241_283&products_id=8267
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=297-446


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

In a series crossover, impedance isn't a big deal. Final load will be fairly high. In fact, using two 4 ohm drivers would be just fine as well. 

The Peerless 2" full range is a nice little driver. I've had very good success with it in my car, and have all the data I need for that driver. 

The M8N will experience the same problem that I had with the DC200. That spike at 2khz. Would I take the M8N over the DC200? Probably not for double the price for this project. The crossover will still look similar. However, there's probably no question the M8N is a better overall driver in terms of harmonic distortion, etc. Just for this project, I'm not sure how much better.

The F8 by HiVi would have the response needed. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=297-445

However, now we're getting pricey, and I'm not sure the extra performance would really be worth it. 

Also, just to be clear, the crossover I've modeled would be $100.00 for 'both' crossovers, not each. Plus a bit under $60.00 for drivers, then you build your cabinet. Like I said, it's pretty damn good for under $200.00.

The cabinet is another story. That's going to take some work. This design is dependent on some very specific conditions for the cabinet.

In the end, we need to understand expectations. Cheap, sound good, subwooferless, efficient and small are some very lofty expectations. I'd say pick 3 of the 5 as your actual expectations, and be ready to sacrifice the others. Anything other than that and we're into "6 of one, and half a dozen of another". The above modeled system is 3 of the 45 with the sacrifice being overall quality, and efficiency. It'll sound decent, but not anything near reference. It'll be a budget system, that'll still be worth more than you'll end up paying for it. 

However, the expectations you've laid out are not realistic. You want all 5? Fork over the cash, and we're talking thousands. 

Here's an example of 4 out of 5. That's pretty damn good.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Wood%20Artistry%20LL-home.htm

It's the "Pluto" on that page.


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I looked at those F8's when I first started the thread. They modeled up well in Unibox and had the best low end response out of everything I modeled. Only reason I counted them out was because Madisound was out of them. If they ever get them back in stock they would be a sure fire winner; considering they have them for $38. Maybe it's worth the wait; I know I'm in no hurry.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

ItalynStylion said:


> I looked at those F8's when I first started the thread. They modeled up well in Unibox and had the best low end response out of everything I modeled. Only reason I counted them out was because Madisound was out of them. If they ever get them back in stock they would be a sure fire winner; considering they have them for $38. Maybe it's worth the wait; I know I'm in no hurry.


At $40.00 a driver, they may be worth it. You won't save $40.00 in crossover components but you will get a bit better performance.

However, you may want to give Madisound a call. Usually when they mark a driver down like that they want to get rid of stock, and have no intention of stocking it again. Make sure, because you don't want to be sitting, and waiting for nothing.


----------



## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Madisound said it was a sell out and they weren't going to order more.......balls


----------

