# Multiple cheaper subs will sound the same as one high end.



## Ultimateherts

Multiple cheaper subs will sound the same as one high end. I have always heard people say this, but never understood why? So let's say a JL W7 vs multiple W0's.


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## theoldguy

sound the same? Im thinking no. Several of the same sub will sound exactly the same as the same sub by itself, it will just be much louder. I am strictly talking about the musicality. "how it sounds". If you are talking about SPL, then yes, several cheap crappy subs will eventually at some point be louder than a single sub of any other caliber.


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## Huckleberry Sound

But at the end of the day when I am placing my time and heart in to a into my car or some else discussion, I always consider quality over quantity.

Consider the time it would take to get 4 subs to sound right vs to quaily subs to sound right. When you start to place more drivers of any kind you have to know there is more room for error. Also the cost of putting in 4 drivers of cheap could cost you more, time, space, wattage, wire, power and etc. 

I have always thought about this. If you are going to do it right, take your time do it right the first time. Put in what you can afford and make sure the install is sound. I have seen plenty of people take less expensive drivers and make them sound amazing! 

Its your time you are placing into this.


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## cajunner

any reasonably built subwoofer has the potential to fill in the bottom end.

the exceptional ones do more things right, and you can't get that with several lesser woofers, you're just multiplying weaknesses to some extent unless you're able to equalize heavily and even then, the distortion from a weak motor/heavy cone substitute, will be easily audible in comparison.


this debate seems to center around people who want to get around the high cost of the best examples on the market, and naturally attract those who want to believe their mid-grade is just as good as the guy with the high end.

It's another attempt to fight the age-old maxim that you get what you pay for.


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## req

ok lets hold the phone for a second.

the idea stems from the fact that LESS EXCURSION = HIGHER FIDELITY. the reason this happens is because the voice coil stays in the highest flux area of motor strength, AND the less excursion a speaker commits to a given SPL, the less distortion due to suspension loosing its hold on linearity. along those lines, a speaker that is more efficient will have a lighter cone and more often than not less excursion. to make up for the lost excursion, a second speaker is an easy remidy.

therefore instead of wanting 130db from a single 10, why not add a second speaker and spread it out more evenly.

so;

1. coil staying in BL flux = better control & higher transient response
2. less excursion for given SPL = better control of soft parts
3. more cone area = easier to achieve given SPL
4. more coil\motor = spread out heat dissapation (power compression)
5. more cone area = easier to reproduce lower frequencies at given SPL

the list goes on. i would rather have a few well built subwoofers than one really expensive one. this is just my opinnion. many people out there compete and win with a single subwoofer.

we should not be comparing 4 sony xplod 12's to a single dynaudio E1200 esotair 12. it would be like comparing four geo metro's to a bugatti veyron. they are both cars and they both have 16 cylanders - but i daresay they are in a league together.

this discssion is way more complex than "more cheap subs are better than a single expensive sub" or "a single expensive sub is better than more cheap subs"


it mostly falls upon goals of the stereo, budget of the stereo, and installation quality than anything else.


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## cajunner

req said:


> ok lets hold the phone for a second.
> 
> the idea stems from the fact that LESS EXCURSION = HIGHER FIDELITY. the reason this happens is because the voice coil stays in the highest flux area of motor strength, AND the less excursion a speaker commits to a given SPL, the less distortion due to suspension loosing its hold on linearity. along those lines, a speaker that is more efficient will have a lighter cone and more often than not less excursion. to make up for the lost excursion, a second speaker is an easy remidy.
> 
> therefore instead of wanting 130db from a single 10, why not add a second speaker and spread it out more evenly.
> 
> so;
> 
> 1. coil staying in BL flux = better control & higher transient response
> 2. less excursion for given SPL = better control of soft parts
> 3. more cone area = easier to achieve given SPL
> 4. more coil\motor = spread out heat dissapation (power compression)
> 5. more cone area = easier to reproduce lower frequencies at given SPL
> 
> the list goes on. i would rather have a few well built subwoofers than one really expensive one. this is just my opinnion. many people out there compete and win with a single subwoofer.
> 
> we should not be comparing 4 sony xplod 12's to a single dynaudio E1200 esotair 12. it would be like comparing four geo metro's to a bugatti veyron. they are both cars and they both have 16 cylanders - but i daresay they are in a league together.
> 
> this discssion is way more complex than "more cheap subs are better than a single expensive sub" or "a single expensive sub is better than more cheap subs"
> 
> 
> it mostly falls upon goals of the stereo, budget of the stereo, and installation quality than anything else.


the four metro's will be able to transport 4 times as many passengers....





but you make a valid point, and points.

I guess I had taken the case question and brought it to it's logical extreme, when I should have stayed with the original premise.

4 W3's, for my purposes, is likely installed, or meant to obtain SPL. One W3, may be meant to fill in the bottom end.

One W7, could be meant to fill in the bottom end, but many have used them to gain SPL.

Personally, I like the sound of professional woofers as subwoofers, because although the industry lean, demands excursion as a trend, I value surface area and less distortion over the musical frequency range of what I want to hear.

These heavy coned tone generators that are useful in reproducing rap songs, don't really excite me in the sense that I'm getting into the music, they are like Beats headphones in that they exaggerate the bass and are more for an effect than fidelity.

I rarely need to hear fundamentals below 30 hz, and with cabin gain you don't really need to have 20 mm of excursion available, unless you're just looking for that rush that comes with having your tonsils flutter. 

Low distortion professional subwoofers, with 9 mm of Xmax, seem to do plenty before you're hearing them strain.


wait, that wasn't the question. I need some coffee...


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## cubdenno

We worry to much about bass... the easiest thing to achieve in a car.

Req nails it. Keeping cone movement down to achieve a specified SPL over the given frequency range is the way to go. The less cone movement required, the more linear the mechanical parts are and the less distortion and compression. 

As for brand, If you start with a decent driver, place it in a proper enclosure, I still have not found an earth shattering difference in high dollar vs low dollar. 

It will come down to how a single sub handles the SPL requirements the user desires. Does the single sub stay composed the louder you turn it up. Since to maintain the same output across the FR, every halving of frequency requires 4 times the cone movement. The louder you go the more that cone moves the more distortion creeps in. It can be easier to just rock more speakers. Problem is, the limited space in a vehicle. we can't do what the home guys can as easy.


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## Jroo

Ultimateherts said:


> Multiple cheaper subs will sound the same as one high end. I have always heard people say this, but never understood why? So let's say a JL W7 vs multiple W0's.


When you say sound the same, what do you mean? I have heard multiple cheap subs get louder, but not sound better. The biggest thing is the box. I have certainly heard cheaper subs sound better in a better designed box vs a more expensive sub in a not so great box.


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## req

cubdenno said:


> Req nails it.


thank you sir 


a decent subwoofer in a correctly built enclosure can throw down at a SQ compeition. ive been there and seen cheap(er) subwoofers perform well. 

i always look at the price\performance ratio. if im paying 50% more and only getting 2% - i will not be "upgrading" if you know what i mean.


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## [email protected]

I gotta say, the 4 c10's in my tundra sound really, really good..


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## Coppertone

Do us a favor and treat us to a video of these subs playing please.


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## Victor_inox

4 woofers mounted in the same baffle perform like one. Kinda impractical in the car... sound better though...


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## BuickGN

One other thing to think about, a 13W7 will be cruising at 20mm excursion with Bl being flat and the suspension hardly working. Just as two cheaper subs will have less distortion than a single cheap sub, a high excursion sub will have less distortion at a given xmax. A single 13W7 might very well be cleaner than a pair of cheaper subs at the same output and use a pair of 13W7s and you're not likely to stress them very often. 

I think the answer comes down to which single sub vs which pair of subs. Personally I would rather do 2-3 expensive subs and have it all.


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## SkizeR

where the hell have you heard this?


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## BlkRamRt

IMO why put more equipment in you car/truck than you have to. Another factor that comes into play (mentioned above) is would you rather have quality or quantity. sometimes less is more. just my opinion.


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## Victor_inox

req said:


> ok lets hold the phone for a second.
> 
> the idea stems from the fact that LESS EXCURSION = HIGHER FIDELITY. the reason this happens is because the voice coil stays in the highest flux area of motor strength, AND the less excursion a speaker commits to a given SPL, the less distortion due to suspension loosing its hold on linearity. along those lines, a speaker that is more efficient will have a lighter cone and more often than not less excursion. to make up for the lost excursion, a second speaker is an easy remidy.
> 
> therefore instead of wanting 130db from a single 10, why not add a second speaker and spread it out more evenly.
> 
> so;
> 
> 1. coil staying in BL flux = better control & higher transient response
> 2. less excursion for given SPL = better control of soft parts
> 3. more cone area = easier to achieve given SPL
> 4. more coil\motor = spread out heat dissapation (power compression)
> 5. more cone area = easier to reproduce lower frequencies at given SPL
> 
> the list goes on. i would rather have a few well built subwoofers than one really expensive one. this is just my opinnion. many people out there compete and win with a single subwoofer.
> 
> we should not be comparing 4 sony xplod 12's to a single dynaudio E1200 esotair 12. it would be like comparing four geo metro's to a bugatti veyron. they are both cars and they both have 16 cylanders - but i daresay they are in a league together.
> 
> this discssion is way more complex than "more cheap subs are better than a single expensive sub" or "a single expensive sub is better than more cheap subs"
> 
> 
> it mostly falls upon goals of the stereo, budget of the stereo, and installation quality than anything else.


While a agree with most points you were making here, geo metro vs veyron is incomplete. let`s say you need to move 16 people, what combination you`d prefer? Acoustically 4 drivers with 2mm excursion squarely mounted in the same baffle perform better than 1 with 8mm and same cone area, end of story. Less distortion that is.


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## Victor_inox

SkizeR said:


> where the hell have you heard this?


Use quote next time please.


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## Victor_inox

BlkRamRt said:


> IMO why put more equipment in you car/truck than you have to. Another factor that comes into play (mentioned above) is would you rather have quality or quantity. sometimes less is more. just my opinion.


 Because we can... since when less means more quality?


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## Victor_inox

BuickGN said:


> One other thing to think about, a 13W7 will be cruising at 20mm excursion with Bl being flat and the suspension hardly working. Just as two cheaper subs will have less distortion than a single cheap sub, a high excursion sub will have less distortion at a given xmax. A single 13W7 might very well be cleaner than a pair of cheaper subs at the same output and use a pair of 13W7s and you're not likely to stress them very often.
> 
> I think the answer comes down to which single sub vs which pair of subs. Personally I would rather do 2-3 expensive subs and have it all.


Very easy approach... when you have more money than knowledge/experience.


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## Sound Suggestions

:z: Ouch, touché


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## [email protected]

Victor_inox said:


> 4 woofers mounted in the same baffle perform like one. Kinda impractical in the car... sound better though...


Not so impractical if you don't mind cutting the floor!!!


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## Victor_inox

[email protected] said:


> Not so impractical if you don't mind cutting the floor!!!


and roof to be symmetrical. nice install BTW


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## SkizeR

Victor_inox said:


> Use quote next time please.


to the OP


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## BigDNY

I took this idea to heart when I built a competition SQ system a decade ago and it proved to be true I suppose. Hard to say if multiple cheap subs are truly better than a single pricey sub in the same application, but I can confirm that multiple cheap subs can perform well. 

I used 4 12" subs as 2 isobaric pairs. These were really cheap subs. I think they were made by Pyle, but with no name plate on them. They came in a prefab band pass box I picked up off of ebay for about $75 for two. I trashed the boxes and made my own ported box. SQ was great and they could get loud. They were part of my system that won USAC championships that year. I took them out shortly after the comp due to the size of the box.


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## Nismo

req said:


> i always look at the price\performance ratio. if im paying 50% more and only getting 2% - i will not be "upgrading" if you know what i mean.


I paid $80 for a working 12" Brahma. I'm going to spend another $110 to make it a 15" reconed Brahma. $190 total for a sub that 10 years ago was over $400. I call that performance at a great price! 

Eric


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## BuickGN

Victor_inox said:


> Very easy approach... when you have more money than knowledge/experience.


True. Or you might not be smart enough to realize that having multiple high end subs will mean lower distortion than multiple cheap subs or a single expensive sub 

The only thing worse would be having no knowledge/experience and no money, it sucks to be you. I'm sorry you're a mid 40 something yr old burn out with a teenager mentality and the grammar skills of a 5yr old, and I usually just laugh at your nonsense but I'm going to call you on this one.

I'm currently running $333 (new, shipped to my door) worth of subs. Does this make me smart since I'm running multiple cheap subs with lots of cone area? Is my IQ going to fall a few points when I go back to a pair of 13W7s because based on several years of experience the W7s sounded better?

Back to the topic at hand, why don't you attempt to disprove my statement without getting personal. I know its hard when you are a man child with little money and experience but give it a try. I said a 13W7 at 20mm excursion is just coasting with little distortion, way under it's xmax rating of 32mm one way while a pair of cheaper subs (pretend each one has the same cone area as the W7) might have more distortion at 10mm each. What is not true about my statement that multiple high end, high xmax subs would not be better than multiple cheap subs? Why would you think a single high end sub could not sound as good or better and get louder than a pair of cheap subs? 

I'm all about cone area but if I had to run a box like most do I would probably go with a 12 or 13W7 or any high end sub over a pair of cheap subs if only for the space savings while retaining great output and SQ. IMO the single more expensive sub (that will get as loud and sound as good) is worth it for the space savings, not to mention they're usually better built and will last longer between failures. That has to be factored into price as well. One expensive sub that will last 12 years or a pair of cheap subs for almost the same price as the expensive sub that might give you 5 years. Sure, not all expensive subs last longer and some cheap subs last a long time but generally, the more expensive stuff will last longer.

Speaking of experience, I've run the 13W7 IB and I've been running the pair of IB15s for a couple years now. My decision to go back to the W7s is based on experience. I know it's hard to believe but in this case the more expensive subs sound better and get louder despite having less cone area. In the end it comes down to which expensive subs and which cheap subs we're talking about. I'm sure it could swing either way.


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## hurrication

Just remember that low excursion in a cheap sub doesn't always equal less distortion. It truly depends on the design and specs of the cheaper subs, so a blanket statement of "low excursion = low distortion" isn't always true.


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## BuickGN

hurrication said:


> Just remember that low excursion in a cheap sub doesn't always equal less distortion. It truly depends on the design and specs of the cheaper subs, so a blanket statement of "low excursion = low distortion" isn't always true.


I think the only blanket statement that applies is lower excursion means lower distortion but it might not be low distortion.


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## minbari

I think two things are at work here.

1) your system will only sound as good as the components. If they sound bad, it doesnt really matter how many of them you have. It will just sound bad more loudly. I dont think we are talking about putting Dual 12" against Morel or Dyns. "Cheaper" just meaning good quality, less expensive and not Walmart crap.

2) cheaper subs with less excursion <> they sound bad within their rated xmax. push any speaker beyond its limits and it will sound bad, less expensive speakers will hit that limit sooner. Its a trade off.

I think my system is a good example. Those Pyle subs are nothing special and maybe they dont have the SQ of an JL W7, but they cost about 20 times less too!  The JL are 100% not a 20X better speaker.
So, as long as you get a speaker that sounds good in the install you intend it for, you can make up for a super long excursion, smaller sub with a larger, lower excursion sub in multiples.


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## quality_sound

Twenty times?? Really?? 

Sent from my Moto X using Tapatalk


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## minbari

JL Audio 13W7AE-D1.5 Anniversary Edition W7 Series 13.5" subwoofer with dual 1.5-ohm voice coils at Crutchfield.com

JL 13W7 - $1299.00

Pyle PL1590BL 15" Blue Label DVC Subwoofer | 292-139

Pyle 15" sub - $57

so, 22.7 times more


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## cubdenno

And in a vehicle, motor running, are you really going to be able to tell the difference of even walmart speakers at normal listening levels in the correct enclosure?

I truly believe no. Dial them in with correct integration with the rest of the system and much like the amp test, if you didn't know what was playing, most would be very hard pressed to tell a sony xplode from a morel or dyn.

Obviously going louder will probably start to strain the cheaper sub. Hopefully!


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## hurrication

cubdenno said:


> And in a vehicle, motor running, are you really going to be able to tell the difference of even walmart speakers at normal listening levels in the correct enclosure?
> 
> I truly believe no. Dial them in with correct integration with the rest of the system and much like the amp test, if you didn't know what was playing, most would be very hard pressed to tell a sony xplode from a morel or dyn.


Seriously?


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## NateZ28

BuickGN said:


> True. Or you might not be smart enough to realize that having multiple high end subs will mean lower distortion than multiple cheap subs or a single expensive sub
> 
> The only thing worse would be having no knowledge/experience and no money, it sucks to be you. I'm sorry you're a mid 40 something yr old burn out with a teenager mentality and the grammar skills of a 5yr old, and I usually just laugh at your nonsense but I'm going to call you on this one.
> 
> I'm currently running $333 (new, shipped to my door) worth of subs. Does this make me smart since I'm running multiple cheap subs with lots of cone area? Is my IQ going to fall a few points when I go back to a pair of 13W7s because based on several years of experience the W7s sounded better?
> 
> Back to the topic at hand, why don't you attempt to disprove my statement without getting personal. I know its hard when you are a man child with little money and experience but give it a try. I said a 13W7 at 20mm excursion is just coasting with little distortion, way under it's xmax rating of 32mm one way while a pair of cheaper subs (pretend each one has the same cone area as the W7) might have more distortion at 10mm each. What is not true about my statement that multiple high end, high xmax subs would not be better than multiple cheap subs? Why would you think a single high end sub could not sound as good or better and get louder than a pair of cheap subs?
> 
> I'm all about cone area but if I had to run a box like most do I would probably go with a 12 or 13W7 or any high end sub over a pair of cheap subs if only for the space savings while retaining great output and SQ. IMO the single more expensive sub (that will get as loud and sound as good) is worth it for the space savings, not to mention they're usually better built and will last longer between failures. That has to be factored into price as well. One expensive sub that will last 12 years or a pair of cheap subs for almost the same price as the expensive sub that might give you 5 years. Sure, not all expensive subs last longer and some cheap subs last a long time but generally, the more expensive stuff will last longer.
> 
> Speaking of experience, I've run the 13W7 IB and I've been running the pair of IB15s for a couple years now. My decision to go back to the W7s is based on experience. I know it's hard to believe but in this case the more expensive subs sound better and get louder despite having less cone area. In the end it comes down to which expensive subs and which cheap subs we're talking about. I'm sure it could swing either way.


I have two 10W7's in a sealed box. They're powered by a single JL HD 750. They hit very hard and go very low. I have the JL HD remote knob and almost never turn it up more than 50%. The W7's are much louder than the two "competition grade" 900W RMS 12 inch subwoofers I had prior and sound much, much better. The lack of distortion is what's so impressive. The subwoofer's ability to go so low, to the point where I feel the bass more than hear it is simply awesome. Once you hear a sub that sounds like the W7, without distorting, you'll never want to go back.
Have you ever heard anything that sounded better than W7's BuickGN?



cubdenno said:


> And in a vehicle, motor running, are you really going to be able to tell the difference of even walmart speakers at normal listening levels in the correct enclosure?
> 
> I truly believe no. Dial them in with correct integration with the rest of the system and much like the amp test, if you didn't know what was playing, most would be very hard pressed to tell a sony xplode from a morel or dyn.
> 
> Obviously going louder will probably start to strain the cheaper sub. Hopefully!


I think anyone who has a musical ear and doesn't have tinnitus can tell you the difference.
Are you srsly?


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## cubdenno

I is srsly. It amazes me the discussions regarding which sub is better. It's fekkin bass. In a car. 

No one said **** when buwalda shows up and wins some sq show with four six inch subs.

Why? If someone else of a much lesser pedigree did that and exclaimed the sq-ness of that particular set up, even throwing in the fact of a band pass enclosure being used... Oh dear god noooo.

Look at what minbari uses to great effect. A Pyle subwoofer. He claims sq. Oh wait. Is it because it's IB?

Put a speaker in the correct enclosure for that speaker. Play it in its "comfort" zone. Match that output to the rest of the system. 
You will have a hard time telling a 120 dollar sub from a 1200 dollar sub in a car. 

Use the wrong enclosure or ask for more than that speaker can put out and yeah, you are probably going to hear it. 

People like to justify the high dollar price of certain things and sometimes it's worth it. But sometimes especially with an electro-mechanical device reproducing sound, it just doesn't performance wise.


I have no golden ear. Probably the normal amount of tinnitus for a guy my age, with the industry I work in. Plus I love my music loud and clear when I rock out. Add in the facts of searching for that great white whale and unicorn with subs and amps and let my experiences save you money and time. If it's just the "prestige" of owning a certain brand or having a particular aesthetic, knock yourself out. I don't have to understand it and we don't have to agree. Ford Chevy debate.


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## NateZ28

cubdenno said:


> I is srsly. It amazes me the discussions regarding which sub is better. It's fekkin bass. In a car.
> 
> No one said **** when buwalda shows up and wins some sq show with four six inch subs.
> 
> Why? If someone else of a much lesser pedigree did that and exclaimed the sq-ness of that particular set up, even throwing in the fact of a band pass enclosure being used... Oh dear god noooo.
> 
> Look at what minbari uses to great effect. A Pyle subwoofer. He claims sq. Oh wait. Is it because it's IB?
> 
> Put a speaker in the correct enclosure for that speaker. Play it in its "comfort" zone. Match that output to the rest of the system.
> You will have a hard time telling a 120 dollar sub from a 1200 dollar sub in a car.
> 
> Use the wrong enclosure or ask for more than that speaker can put out and yeah, you are probably going to hear it.
> 
> People like to justify the high dollar price of certain things and sometimes it's worth it. But sometimes especially with an electro-mechanical device reproducing sound, it just doesn't performance wise.
> 
> 
> I have no golden ear. Probably the normal amount of tinnitus for a guy my age, with the industry I work in. Plus I love my music loud and clear when I rock out. Add in the facts of searching for that great white whale and unicorn with subs and amps and let my experiences save you money and time. If it's just the "prestige" of owning a certain brand or having a particular aesthetic, knock yourself out. I don't have to understand it and we don't have to agree. Ford Chevy debate.


I can agree with you that at a certain level, high end subwoofers are hard to tell apart. But I can hear a clear audible difference between a JL W3, in a box built to spec, and a JL W7 in a box built to spec.
I've listened to mid-grade subwoofers, such as the Diamond Audio, Rockford Fosgate P3, and JL W6. My girlfriend has a pair of P3's so I get to listen to them quite often. Her P3's are getting about 250w more than my W7's in fact. But they sound boomy and cannot hit the same low, gut turning bass that my W7's reproduce. When her subwoofers go high I can hear the distortion. But I've been listening to different subwoofer setups for years, maybe I've trained myself to hear the difference.

But if you're talking about a JL 12W7 compared to a Dynaudio Esotar 1200, I would have a hard time telling you the difference.


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## Sound Suggestions

^Don't want to debate too much here but "W6" you consider mid grade? My old 10w6v2 sounded better then my old 10w7 or 12w7, loudness does not represent better quality


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## cubdenno

Nate, you are missing my point. I bet I could fool you on your set up and your girlfriends set up. The difference is integration with the rest of the system and what constitutes a correct enclosure, not a manufacturer recommended one. Plus at most the subs would not be played over 100-105 db. 

I have heard a metric **** ton of sub set ups as well. Train all you want. The application and implementation will fool you every time.


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## cubdenno

I am driving Atlanta to Decatur Alabama. Leaving now. Will continue from my end when I get in.


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## NateZ28

Sound Suggestions said:


> ^Don't want to debate too much here but "W6" you consider mid grade? My old 10w6v2 sounded better then my old 10w7 or 12w7, loudness does not represent better quality


What kind of box and amps were you using in those set ups? Was it the same car/environment all three times? The W6 requires less air space and power than the W7. But technically it shouldn't sound "better" unless the W7's weren't using a proper enclosure or lacked power.


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## subwoofery

If you're using JL subs in the recommended (by JL) enclosure, IME it's too small. 

Kelvin


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## NateZ28

subwoofery said:


> If you're using JL subs in the recommended (by JL) enclosure, IME it's too small.
> 
> Kelvin


Why would they recommend smaller than what's required? This is for sound quality.


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## subwoofery

NateZ28 said:


> Why would they recommend smaller than what's required? This is for sound quality.


It's because you use it in a car, if they recommend a box too big, they wouldn't attract customers like they do. 
Secondly, most customers/users require a bump in sub response around 40Hz-50Hz for most commercial music (RnB, Rap, etc...) whereas most SQ setup decrease that range enough to not have it much louder than the rest of the sub range. In order to do that you can either use an EQ or use the subwoofer in a bigger enclosure. 
The bigger enclosure will give you more output and be more efficient below 40Hz - this added to the cabin gain, you can then focus on lowering what is not needed below 40Hz (again with an EQ) therefore lowering the excursion = lowering distortion. 

Others, can confirm - JL recommended enclosure can sound great yet it's slightly on the small side. 

Kelvin


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## BuickGN

I fully agree. I've tried them in the recommended size, larger sealed, and eventually IB. The larger sealed sounded better than the recommended sealed and IB sounded better than both. That goes for the W6 and W7 but the W7 seems slightly less affected by too small of an enclosure size.


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## NateZ28

BuickGN said:


> I fully agree. I've tried them in the recommended size, larger sealed, and eventually IB. The larger sealed sounded better than the recommended sealed and IB sounded better than both. That goes for the W6 and W7 but the W7 seems slightly less affected by too small of an enclosure size.


Hmm well it kind of sucks I paid $400 for this custom box. Now there is a partial divider inside my box as well as several braces. Would it be worth it to try to modify my existing box or even building a new one just for a little more air space?


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## BuickGN

Sound Suggestions said:


> ^Don't want to debate too much here but "W6" you consider mid grade? My old 10w6v2 sounded better then my old 10w7 or 12w7, loudness does not represent better quality


The W7 is their top SQ sub first and foremost and it happens to get loud too. Too many put them in a more SPL oriented high tuned ported enclosure but in the right low tuned ported or large sealed they sound absolutely fantastic. I've run both IB as well so they had identical airspace and the W7 was the better sounding (harder hitting, "quicker" and more accurate sounding) sub to me. 

Loudness does not mean it wasn't designed primarily for SQ. It happens to have a broad flat Bl curve and a great suspension which helps SQ and output.


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## cubdenno

subwoofery said:


> It's because you use it in a car, if they recommend a box too big, they wouldn't attract customers like they do.
> Secondly, most customers/users require a bump in sub response around 40Hz-50Hz for most commercial music (RnB, Rap, etc...) whereas most SQ setup decrease that range enough to not have it much louder than the rest of the sub range. In order to do that you can either use an EQ or use the subwoofer in a bigger enclosure.
> The bigger enclosure will give you more output and be more efficient below 40Hz - this added to the cabin gain, you can then focus on lowering what is not needed below 40Hz (again with an EQ) therefore lowering the excursion = lowering distortion.
> 
> Others, can confirm - JL recommended enclosure can sound great yet it's slightly on the small side.
> 
> Kelvin


Spot on kelvin!

Add in smaller enclosures allow a much higher power rating mechanically. 

Oh yeah, this is not a JL phenomena. Most car audio branded subs are marketed this way. Keep the speaker in a small enclosure and you reduce warranty replacements.


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## Sound Suggestions

^I disagree (with my personal history), now I did enjoy my w7's but the w6 seems to be more enjoyable (blended better, disappeared without completely disappearing if you follow me) both were running of well in excess of 1000w in sealed enclosure recommended by JL (now the w6, didn't like that much power, had to be careful there) anyhow I have since moved on and found my IDMAX to be a much better driver....and now on to the Morel's which I have yet to install...remember sound is very subjective, what sounds good to me may not sound the best to you

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## Sound Suggestions

But I do agree manufacturer recommend too small of an enclosure

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## cubdenno

NateZ28 said:


> Hmm well it kind of sucks I paid $400 for this custom box. Now there is a partial divider inside my box as well as several braces. Would it be worth it to try to modify my existing box or even building a new one just for a little more air space?


Probably not. The money is spent. You are happy with the results. Be happy. 

Most you would likely gain is a tiny bit lower extension, and a slight increase in output on your existing power. Most likely not audible. 

This is where modeling can be fun. Model your subs in the current enclosure. Look at the predicted response. You know what that sounds like in your vehicle. Now play with the size/volume of the sealed enclosure. Make it bigger and smaller. You can guesstimate what the changes would sound like. Since it's sealed usually not much difference or rather not enough to make sense of dropping a wad of cash on a new enclosure. If you have measuring capabilities like Rew or an Omnimic, you can look at the actual performance in the car. And that allows you to look at the modeled response and better predict as well...

Sorry gettin wordy.


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## BuickGN

Sound Suggestions said:


> ^I disagree (with my personal history), now I did enjoy my w7's but the w6 seems to be more enjoyable (blended better, disappeared without completely disappearing if you follow me) both were running of well in excess of 1000w in sealed enclosure recommended by JL (now the w6, didn't like that much power, had to be careful there) anyhow I have since moved on and found my IDMAX to be a much better driver....and now on to the Morel's which I have yet to install...remember sound is very subjective, what sounds good to me may not sound the best to you
> 
> New to Tapatalk! It's not bad


Your W7 needed a larger box. My 12W6s didn't blend well when they were in a small sealed box. Once IB, you couldn't tell where the subs ended and midbasses began and that was with no other changes. I had the 13W7 almost solely IB so I can't comment on how it sounded sealed since my time was limited but it also had no problem blending with the fronts and that was with little 6.5" drivers. 

In what way do you think the IDMax is a better driver? Better than the W7??? Same car, same amp, same sized/type of enclosure?


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## Hanatsu

Manufacturers 'always' recommend too small enclosures to increase mechanical power handling. Less warranty issues I guess.


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## Sound Suggestions

Well the 12" IDmax was in a sealed enclosure recommended by the manufacturer (lol, as was the 12w7) same car BMW 323i both running of an arc audio 2300se and I was able to switch the enclosure back n forth, just found the ID to be more delicate, lean at times it just reproduced a nice smooth sound free of artifacts...it didn't add anything funny to the sound, like it was always on time, it was free of that grunt sound but still went down so low and smooth...it helped the overall sound by getting louder and keeping up with the front stage but it never brought too much attention to itself 

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## Sound Suggestions

Sold the 12w7 to a friend (he's very happy) and sold one of my 12" IDmax to another friend (he's also very happy)...to be honest I don't think you could go wrong with any of these drivers 

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## NateZ28

I really love my W7's. I can't imagine something sounding "better". Most people are shocked when I tell them I only have two 10's in a sealed box running off of 750 watts.

I cannot wait to get my Dyn Esotar's installed so I actually have some decent components with mid-bass in my car. Right now my door speakers output nothing below 200 Hz.


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## Ultimateherts

NateZ28 said:


> Most people are shocked when I tell them I only have two 10's in a sealed box running off of 750 watts.


It's not the size it's how you use it!!!!


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## steveholt

quality over quantity or quantity over quality


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## Patrick Bateman

Ultimateherts said:


> Multiple cheaper subs will sound the same as one high end. I have always heard people say this, but never understood why? So let's say a JL W7 vs multiple W0's.


Sure, this is true.

A few people answered this already, but I'll chime in anyways:

1) Due to Hoffman's Iron Law, output is largely dictated by box size, displacement, and the amount of power that's available. You can tweak any of those variables, but when you do, there's an impact on the other two. For instance, you can make the box bigger and you'll need less power.
2) When using multiple cheap subs, the box will generally be bigger, and this reduces the amount of power required, which will then increase your headroom if the amount of power is fixed.
3) Adding cone area reduces excursion, and reducing excurion reduces distortion.

All of this is kind of academic though. Particularly in a home situation, the reason your subs sound like crap is because of room modes. You can have a subwoofer with ultra low distortion, and if there's a big peak at 60hz due to a room mode it's still going to sound ****ty.

Then again, the use of multiple subs reduces room modes, whether the subs cost $50 each or $500 each.


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