# Need SQ subwoofer and box ideas



## JoeyC (Apr 10, 2019)

I'm trying to transition from SPL to an SQ build. What do you guys use for the low end? 10", 12", 15". What boxes, IB, ported, sealed, 4th, 6th? How much power, 300w 500w 2000w? 

What are some good SQ subs, and what constitutes a SQ sub, High Qts? 

Front stage is focal kx3.

Thanks.


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## jdunk54nl (Apr 25, 2015)

What is your price range and how much room do you have? Do you need a shallow mount?

If I were to buy a new sub today it would be one (maybe two) of these in a sealed box. I would probably choose the SI as I need a shallow mount for my truck. But, if I had trunk space, I would probably go Audio frog.

AudioFrog GB10/12 subs 

Stereo Integrity BM MKIV or MKV


I currently have a 10" JL Audio TW3 in a JL PowerWedge box. While it is no slouch, as it is nearly flat without EQ and fairly smooth sounding, it is not on the level of the two above from the few cars I have heard with them (one of them being Andy's car which I don't know if that really counts).


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## JoeyC (Apr 10, 2019)

jdunk54nl said:


> What is your price range and how much room do you have? Do you need a shallow mount?
> 
> If I were to buy a new sub today it would be one (maybe two) of these in a sealed box. I would probably choose the SI as I need a shallow mount for my truck. But, if I had trunk space, I would probably go Audio frog.
> 
> ...


Oh I forgot the room. It's about 3.5 cubic ft. 36w/15h/15d

Price isn't a whole lot. I hear subs are the least important part of an SQ build. So $300 to $600 range.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

If you want sealed, I’d recommend a pair of SI RM-12s. I’ve had several people PM me about how nice the sub is. I haven’t heard such good feedback with it ported but who knows if the enclosures were built correctly. So I’d say the RM-12 is a beefy SQ sub with SQL capabilities.


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## JoeyC (Apr 10, 2019)

dgage said:


> If you want sealed, I’d recommend a pair of SI RM-12s. I’ve had several people PM me about how nice the sub is. I haven’t heard such good feedback with it ported but who knows if the enclosures were built correctly. So I’d say the RM-12 is a beefy SQ sub with SQL capabilities.


Damn do you really need dual 12s for an SQ build? I have one sa12 on 2k 36hz and it pounds. Should I just keep the sa12?


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

JoeyC said:


> Damn do you really need dual 12s for an SQ build? I have one sa12 on 2k 36hz and it pounds. Should I just keep the sa12?


Who knows, each person is different. Coming from an SPL viewpoint, a pair of RM-12s would get you tremendous output potential while having top-tier sound quality. And with the space you have available, you have plenty of room for a pair of RM-12s each in a 1 cu.ft. sealed enclosure. 

For most people a single RM-12 or AF GB-12 would be plenty of bass. Others would want much more.

Regarding your current sub, if you have it, I’d at least give it a shot. But since you’re asking for additional sub options, I’m assuming you’re looking for something different. I don’t know how the SA12 would compare but the AF GB12 and SI RM12 would give great sound quality with the RM12 having a bit more output capability due to its 30% greater Xmax though the GB12 is a little more sensitive.

But I’d always start with the sub you have and see if it gives you the sound quality and output you’re looking for.


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## JoeyC (Apr 10, 2019)

dgage said:


> JoeyC said:
> 
> 
> > Damn do you really need dual 12s for an SQ build? I have one sa12 on 2k 36hz and it pounds. Should I just keep the sa12?
> ...


The sundown sa12 is a boomy sub. Tons of deep low bass but really nothing else. Some songs I have no bass at all. Others it over powers the front stage.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

JoeyC said:


> The sundown sa12 is a boomy sub. Tons of deep low bass but really nothing else. Some songs I have no bass at all. Others it over powers the front stage.


Then the AF GB12 and SI RM-12 in sealed enclosures (~1 cuft) should give you what you're looking for in terms of high sound quality with some solid output capability. There are other good subs out there (JL W6, etc) but those are some of the most recommended recently.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

If subwoofer distortion is a factor for SQ, then does a band pass enclosure become favoured over a sealed enclosure?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

JoeyC said:


> Damn do you really need dual 12s for an SQ build? I have one sa12 on 2k 36hz and it pounds. Should I just keep the sa12?


nope... a single RM-12 sealed is perfect.

And sure you can keep the SA12...SQ build is about the tune.


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## mumbles (Jul 26, 2010)

JoeyC said:


> The sundown sa12 is a boomy sub. Tons of deep low bass but really nothing else. Some songs I have no bass at all. Others it over powers the front stage.


What freq do you have your sundown crossed at? That and the type of enclosure can have a big impact on output and sound quality.


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## ManBearPig (Jul 18, 2016)

Is the SI RM really that good? Every time one of these threads pop up people suggest the RM wether they have experience with it or not.
Also whether it fits the Ops needs or not.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

JoeyC said:


> Damn do you really need dual 12s for an SQ build? I have one sa12 on 2k 36hz and it pounds. Should I just keep the sa12?


You may want to listen to a few set ups before buying. You are leaving 2k watts on a big high tuned ported sub. Also you may have to get used to the sound. I have heard a few SA set ups and they didn't sound that good. They all were loud and had good hit, just wouldn't say they sounded that good doing it. I think in the right box with the right set up, they could. 

I have never had anything other than sealed box with single subs. I don't think I have ever had over 800 rms on a sub set up and have never complained about output. 

I also am hearing that the SI subs are good, but would like to actually hear one. Maybe at some point, I will get to demo them in car


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## JoeyC (Apr 10, 2019)

mumbles said:


> JoeyC said:
> 
> 
> > The sundown sa12 is a boomy sub. Tons of deep low bass but really nothing else. Some songs I have no bass at all. Others it over powers the front stage.
> ...


It's tuned to 36hz in a 2 cubic ft box. Birch wood.


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## JoeyC (Apr 10, 2019)

Jroo said:


> JoeyC said:
> 
> 
> > Damn do you really need dual 12s for an SQ build? I have one sa12 on 2k 36hz and it pounds. Should I just keep the sa12?
> ...


Yea I don't like the sound of the sa12 at all. Sure it was fun when all i wanted was to be heard two blocks away. But now, it's annoying.


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## Promit (Oct 10, 2017)

The thing with SQ is that it's always about quality _at a particular output level_. The desired output level heavily influences the choices of equipment. You can't really go too high on the amount of woofer surface area and watts in that respect. Sealed usually provides the absolute maximum tightness of bass (no group delay or phase issues) but there are plenty of solid highly accurate ported designs given good tuning. Bandpass and other more complex box types are often difficult to physically fit in a car once they're built with the bandwidth required for SQ.

The easiest thing to do is to select low distortion components, and build the rest of the system around the requirements of those components. Illusion and Audiofrog 12s are excellent starting points for the sub. Dual 12s just gives you SQ at higher volumes, but requires a larger box. You can't read SQ off a set of T-S parameters, as those don't capture the real world woofer behavior under power.


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## JoeyC (Apr 10, 2019)

Promit said:


> The thing with SQ is that it's always about quality _at a particular output level_. The desired output level heavily influences the choices of equipment. You can't really go too high on the amount of woofer surface area and watts in that respect. Sealed usually provides the absolute maximum tightness of bass (no group delay or phase issues) but there are plenty of solid highly accurate ported designs given good tuning. Bandpass and other more complex box types are often difficult to physically fit in a car once they're built with the bandwidth required for SQ.
> 
> The easiest thing to do is to select low distortion components, and build the rest of the system around the requirements of those components. Illusion and Audiofrog 12s are excellent starting points for the sub. Dual 12s just gives you SQ at higher volumes, but requires a larger box. You can't read SQ off a set of T-S parameters, as those don't capture the real world woofer behavior under power.


Thanks


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## skylineqrt4 (Jun 1, 2009)

You might want to check out Adire audio. They have there brahma 12in sub in a sealed stained birch box for 500. It comes with a XBL2 motor which trades some efficiency for lower distortion at higher excursion levels. 

I don't know if its a possibility with your car but going IB is an excellent option. Both Fi audio and Acoustic Elegance have some IB focused subs that are excellent. 

As far as box type, the vehicle and the driver will determine whats best. Hexibase on youtube has some excellent video's on the topic.

Hopefully this helps.


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## JoeyC (Apr 10, 2019)

skylineqrt4 said:


> You might want to check out Adire audio. They have there brahma 12in sub in a sealed stained birch box for 500. It comes with a XBL2 motor which trades some efficiency for lower distortion at higher excursion levels.
> 
> I don't know if its a possibility with your car but going IB is an excellent option. Both Fi audio and Acoustic Elegance have some IB focused subs that are excellent.
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## skylineqrt4 (Jun 1, 2009)

I just realized I said excellent 3 times in a few sentences. Please excuse my crappy writing skills.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

ManBearPig said:


> Is the SI RM really that good? Every time one of these threads pop up people suggest the RM wether they have experience with it or not.
> Also whether it fits the Ops needs or not.


yup, its that good.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

I always swear by Alumapro SX sq version, and the mx version for a sq build.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

skylineqrt4 said:


> You might want to check out Adire audio. They have there brahma 12in sub in a sealed stained birch box for 500. It comes with a XBL2 motor which trades some efficiency for lower distortion at higher excursion levels.
> 
> I don't know if its a possibility with your car but going IB is an excellent option. Both Fi audio and Acoustic Elegance have some IB focused subs that are excellent.
> 
> ...


The problem with the Adire Audio Brahma is that you’re looking at a subwoofer design that is over 12 years old and subwoofer technology has come a long way since then. It had quite the reputation back in the day but there would be no way I’d choose it over an AF GB12 or SI RM12 today. I’m glad they restored the brand and I hope they come out with new designs but as of now, it seems like they are living off of the original brand’s name cachet.

And to build on that, since it was recommended in this thread, Illusion Audio was a brand I had back in the day that closed and then reopened. When the Illusion Audio brand came back, they brought updated designs and really had a good product. Unfortunately, it looks like Illusion Audio is no more or on life support so I wouldn’t recommend that brand either.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

dgage said:


> The problem with the Adire Audio Brahma is that you’re looking at a subwoofer design that is over 12 years old and subwoofer technology has come a long way since then. It had quite the reputation back in the day but there would be no way I’d choose it over an AF GB12 or SI RM12 today. I’m glad they restored the brand and I hope they come out with new designs but as of now, it seems like they are living off of the original brand’s name cachet.
> .


In terms of speaker technology especially subs, does it matter? I am throwing this question to see what peoples thought are. I see a lot of times especially companies say the speaker technology has changed and I wonder should I care. Basically to me, it is still a speaker going in a box playing a range of music, lets say 100hz down. The only thing that I really see that has changed is box sizes have gotten smaller and in some cases the power handling has gotten higher. I have never heard a Brahma, but know people talk about them. If the thing sounds good and is priced decent, and fits the application would there be an real advantage over going with a newer tech sub? BTW, I am in no way saying any brand is better than another, just hearing peoples thoughts are. 

I will also say that I have never heard a bad thing about any AF product. I do hear that people say I can find comparable at a lower price, but never that AF doesnt sound good.


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## mumbles (Jul 26, 2010)

JoeyC said:


> It's tuned to 36hz in a 2 cubic ft box. Birch wood.


So a ported box then... one thing worth thinking about is that if you have been listening to a "boom" type system and then switch to an sq type system, you might be disappointed with the new level of output. Not saying it will happen, but a consideration.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Jroo said:


> In terms of speaker technology especially subs, does it matter? I am throwing this question to see what peoples thought are. I see a lot of times especially companies say the speaker technology has changed and I wonder should I care. Basically to me, it is still a speaker going in a box playing a range of music, lets say 100hz down. The only thing that I really see that has changed is box sizes have gotten smaller and in some cases the power handling has gotten higher. I have never heard a Brahma, but know people talk about them. If the thing sounds good and is priced decent, and fits the application would there be an real advantage over going with a newer tech sub? BTW, I am in no way saying any brand is better than another, just hearing peoples thoughts are.
> 
> I will also say that I have never heard a bad thing about any AF product. I do hear that people say I can find comparable at a lower price, but never that AF doesnt sound good.


I’d say it matters more for high-excursion subs than it does normal speakers/subs. Early high excursion subs had control issues near the limits but that has pretty much been addressed with technology over the past 5-10 years.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

dgage said:


> And to build on that, since it was recommended in this thread, Illusion Audio was a brand I had back in the day that closed and then reopened. When the Illusion Audio brand came back, they brought updated designs and really had a good product. Unfortunately, it looks like Illusion Audio is no more or on life support so I wouldn’t recommend that brand either.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

dgage said:


> The problem with the Adire Audio Brahma is that you’re looking at a subwoofer design that is over 12 years old and subwoofer technology has come a long way since then. It had quite the reputation back in the day but there would be no way I’d choose it over an AF GB12 or SI RM12 today. I’m glad they restored the brand and I hope they come out with new designs but as of now, it seems like they are living off of the original brand’s name cachet.
> 
> And to build on that, since it was recommended in this thread, Illusion Audio was a brand I had back in the day that closed and then reopened. When the Illusion Audio brand came back, they brought updated designs and really had a good product. Unfortunately, it looks like Illusion Audio is no more or on life support so I wouldn’t recommend that brand either.


Do those Bramas use a caste basket?
It would be sorta timely if Illusion Audio gets reincarnated again.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

dgage said:


> The problem with the Adire Audio Brahma is that you’re looking at a subwoofer design that is over 12 years old and subwoofer technology has come a long way since then. It had quite the reputation back in the day but there would be no way I’d choose it over an AF GB12 or SI RM12 today. I’m glad they restored the brand and I hope they come out with new designs but as of now, it seems like they are living off of the original brand’s name cachet.
> 
> And to build on that, since it was recommended in this thread, Illusion Audio was a brand I had back in the day that closed and then reopened. When the Illusion Audio brand came back, they brought updated designs and really had a good product. Unfortunately, it looks like Illusion Audio is no more or on life support so I wouldn’t recommend that brand either.


Just curious what new technology was used in the GB12 or RM12 that is not in the AA?


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

I contend that SA12 is an SQ sub, provided you put it in a box that suits it


36hz port tune isn't it. Seal up that existing box, re-calibrate your EQ so the overal response curve matches a useful house curve, and you'll find that sub isn't the problem.


Source: I've run the SA12 and SA18 in sq builds.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

fourthmeal said:


> I contend that SA12 is an SQ sub, provided you put it in a box that suits it
> 
> 
> 36hz port tune isn't it. Seal up that existing box, re-calibrate your EQ so the overal response curve matches a useful house curve, and you'll find that sub isn't the problem.
> ...


I was thinking the same thing. Before making any big purchases or dramatic changes, do as fourthmeal suggests. Plug up your port and re-tune the system. No, it won't be as loud, but I bet it will sound a whole lot better.


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## JoeyC (Apr 10, 2019)

fourthmeal said:


> I contend that SA12 is an SQ sub, provided you put it in a box that suits it
> 
> 
> 36hz port tune isn't it. Seal up that existing box, re-calibrate your EQ so the overal response curve matches a useful house curve, and you'll find that sub isn't the problem.
> ...


I didn't know that about the sundown being a good SQ sub in a sealed box. Thanks for that info and advice.

What size of a box would you recommend? Is it true for SQ build a large box? Like 2 or 3 cubic ft for one 12"


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

JoeyC said:


> I didn't know that about the sundown being a good SQ sub in a sealed box. Thanks for that info and advice.
> 
> What size of a box would you recommend? Is it true for SQ build a large box? Like 2 or 3 cubic ft for one 12"


You could do IB, which would be a full trunk or 15-20 cu.ft. IB subs play low and clean and don’t need much power (300w or so). As a matter of fact, if you put too much power, you could damage the driver.

Sealed enclosures are also known as acoustic suspension because the enclosed air volume helps control the subwoofer’s suspension. Going too large means the enclosure is not helping to control the subwoofer’s suspension. So if you go larger than normal, be careful with the power as you could easily destroy a driver. If you’re not experienced, I’d recommend the manufacturer’s recommended enclosure.


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## Hammer1 (Jan 30, 2011)

dgage said:


> The problem with the Adire Audio Brahma is that you’re looking at a subwoofer design that is over 12 years old and subwoofer technology has come a long way since then. It had quite the reputation back in the day but there would be no way I’d choose it over an AF GB12 or SI RM12 today. I’m glad they restored the brand and I hope they come out with new designs but as of now, it seems like they are living off of the original brand’s name cachet.
> 
> And to build on that, since it was recommended in this thread, Illusion Audio was a brand I had back in the day that closed and then reopened. When the Illusion Audio brand came back, they brought updated designs and really had a good product. Unfortunately, it looks like Illusion Audio is no more or on life support so I wouldn’t recommend that brand either.


Illusion Audio is not gone or on life support. The Factory in India had some problems and now they are back on track. They make one of the best SQ subs out there.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Hammer1 said:


> Illusion Audio is not gone or on life support. The Factory in India had some problems and now they are back on track. They make one of the best SQ subs out there.


I've heard people say the same thing yet others have tried to purchase the C3CX and have not been able to. I hope they are indeed fine but at this point the situation seems concerning. Time will tell.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

JoeyC said:


> I didn't know that about the sundown being a good SQ sub in a sealed box. Thanks for that info and advice.
> 
> What size of a box would you recommend? Is it true for SQ build a large box? Like 2 or 3 cubic ft for one 12"


I've heard that this is one place the SA performs poorly - sealed enclosures. I use one in a SQ setup with a ported enclosure though. It doesn't nail transients like my sealed SD but sounds great on 99.9% of tracks and digs low effortlessly. Since you're coming from SPL it can help with the transition as it downright boogies when I ask it to. Speaking of the SD (at least the SD3), it sounds amazing in a small sealed enclosure.


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## rob feature (Nov 15, 2015)

JoeyC said:


> The sundown sa12 is a boomy sub. Tons of deep low bass but really nothing else. Some songs I have no bass at all. Others it over powers the front stage.


Sounds like an enclosure & perhaps tuning problem. I play mine to 100 Hz and it blends with the front stage surprisingly well.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Hammer1 said:


> Illusion Audio is not gone or on life support. The Factory in India had some problems and now they are back on track. They make one of the best SQ subs out there.



Correct. New factory is online. 




dgage said:


> I've heard people say the same thing yet others have tried to purchase the C3CX and have not been able to. I hope they are indeed fine but at this point the situation seems concerning. Time will tell.


Availability was/is an issue currently. That is due to the problems Hammer1 alluded to. Those issues have been resolved and production is getting back on track. I would expect to see product availability in the US to be back to normal soon, and support of the product from Orca hasn't changed at all.


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## skylineqrt4 (Jun 1, 2009)

Holmz said:


> Do those Bramas use a caste basket?
> It would be sorta timely if Illusion Audio gets reincarnated again.


The basket is caste


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

dgage said:


> The problem with the Adire Audio Brahma is that you’re looking at a subwoofer design that is over 12 years old and subwoofer technology has come a long way since then. It had quite the reputation back in the day but there would be no way I’d choose it over an AF GB12 or SI RM12 today. I’m glad they restored the brand and I hope they come out with new designs but as of now, it seems like they are living off of the original brand’s name cachet.
> 
> And to build on that, since it was recommended in this thread, Illusion Audio was a brand I had back in the day that closed and then reopened. When the Illusion Audio brand came back, they brought updated designs and really had a good product. Unfortunately, it looks like Illusion Audio is no more or on life support so I wouldn’t recommend that brand either.


The motor design in the Brahma is still a top contender compared to any over-hung design you can present, because it addresses the [arguably] largest component of non-linear distortion: the linearity of the BL curve vs displacement. It is said that a non-linear BL curve (meaning the standard "parabolic" drooping shape of an overhung topology) is responsible for nearly 70% of non-linear distortion. Please share what _"subwoofer technology has come a long way since then"_. I love to learn about new technologies. Especially any new motor technology not previously seen by anyone, in the AF BG12. Can't seem to find anything being touted on their website.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

dgage said:


> The problem with the Adire Audio Brahma is that you’re looking at a subwoofer design that is over 12 years old and subwoofer technology has come a long way since then.


I completely disagree. Loudspeeaker tech has not changed much at all since it's invention about a hundred years ago. We've gotten some better materials, and a couple of distortion reducing tricks, but that's about it. The loudspeaker is very, very similar now to what it was 50 years or more ago. 

Subwoofers are very simple speakers, and even the shorting rings, and other designs that reduce distortion aren't usually needed in a subwoofer (although they do help, you can get great results from very simple subwoofers). Most people prefer high distortion subs over low distortion subs, even in SQ builds. We do not perceive low frequency distortion the same way we perceive high frequency distortion. We tolerate up to 100% distortion at 40hz. 

OP, I don't see any reason at all to buy a new sub, but I certainly would build a new box to broaden and lower the frequency response. A nice, big sealed box would be perfect, or maybe even IB if you could manage, but I don't think you'll see a lot of improvement that you can't get from a new box by buying new subs.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

I disagree, like anything with audio and really technology in general, the steps are pretty small but do make a difference. There have most definitely been some improvements in the materials as I’ve worked with speaker makers to develop some sub and speaker designs. The improvements aren’t huge but they are there.


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

dgage said:


> I disagree, like anything with audio and really technology in general, the steps are pretty small but do make a difference. There have most definitely been some improvements in the materials as I’ve worked with speaker makers to develop some sub and speaker designs. The improvements aren’t huge but they are there.


While I agree with you with that statement, I wouldn't call "some improvements" in materials alone "subwoofer technology", as an inclusive conglomerate of all technologies that apply to a subwoofer. You made it sound like there are completely different motor or suspension topologies being used now that weren't used 12 years ago. What exact materials do you speak of and where is the data analysis that accompanies these developments? Don't worry, I'm pretty good with numbers.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Oscar said:


> While I agree with you with that statement, I wouldn't call "some improvements" in materials alone "subwoofer technology", as an inclusive conglomerate of all technologies that apply to a subwoofer. You made it sound like there are completely different motor or suspension topologies being used now that weren't used 12 years ago. What exact materials do you speak of and where is the data analysis that accompanies these developments? Don't worry, I'm pretty good with numbers.


Good call. I inadvertently overstated though I think the capabilities with voice coil wiring, magnet materials (not only neo which has been out for a while but other materials and their orientation to get stronger magnets), better machining of the motor gap, etc. XBL2 is still a major technology with many advantages but some of the newer materials and machining capabilities give some additional opportunities for improvements. To me, all of these little improvements do add up to making a pretty big difference, even what I’ve been able to do now compared to 5 years ago seems pretty amazing. Then again, like anything in audio, you pay quite a bit for small incremental improvements.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

gijoe said:


> I completely disagree. ...
> ...
> 
> ... Most people prefer high distortion subs over low distortion subs, even in SQ builds. We do not perceive low frequency distortion the same way we perceive high frequency distortion. We tolerate up to 100% distortion at 40hz.
> ...


The one exception where high distortion might not be good is if the distortion helps in localising the subs...in that case lower distortion is arguably higher fidelity. (Even if most people prefer high distortion)

Another benefit with lower distortion, is that it can be crossed over higher up in frequency, but that also starts to rely on steeper cross overs.

If the OP likes high distortion, or does not prefer it... then that helps form what SQ means in their context.


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## Nirvana (Sep 18, 2009)

Holmz said:


> Do those Bramas use a caste basket?
> It would be sorta timely if Illusion Audio gets reincarnated again.


Illusion Audio would be untouchable.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Nirvana said:


> Illusion Audio would be untouchable.


Be careful, your fandom is showing. Comparing the Illusion Audio C12XL, it has 1mm less xmax than the AF GB12 and 12mm less than the SI RM-12. The C12XL also has a major sensitivity disadvantage when compared to the AF GB12 though less of a disadvantage to the RM-12. Power handling is similar with the C12XL and GB12 but half of the rated power of the RM-12.

So those are all specs and you could say the Illusion Audio uses better technology but they use XBL2, which is the same technology used in the RM-12. I’m not familiar with the design of the AF GB12 but it has proven to be a very high quality design.

So with all that said, the RM-12 will have the most output capability followed by the GB-12 and the C12XL would trail some. All of the subs are high-quality, low-distortion subwoofers so sound quality should be similar between all of them, meaning at the top of the list.

The Illusion Audio C12XL is a very good sub but untouchable? Not even close.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Nirvana said:


> Illusion Audio would be untouchable.


^Nice^


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

dgage said:


> So those are all specs and you could say the Illusion Audio uses better technology *but they use XBL2, which is the same technology used in the RM-12*.


Really? You should stop now since you clearly don't know what you're talking about. This the SI RM-12 motor. Look inside the red square. Case closed. Please study some more. We can help. Just have to be open to actually learning. 













OP, you want SQ, irregardless of your actual preference? Adire Audio Brahma, JBL WGTi's if you can find them, or CSS SDX10 or SDX 12. I would be willing to bet money the CSS SDX12 has the lowest sub-bass distortion of all of them. That one actually uses XBL² technology _and _uses dual copper flux shorting rings. No other commercially available subwoofer has that combination.

Image belongs to CSS.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

dgage said:


> Be careful, your fandom is showing. Comparing the Illusion Audio C12XL, it has 1mm less xmax than the AF GB12 and 12mm less than the SI RM-12. The C12XL also has a major sensitivity disadvantage when compared to the AF GB12 though less of a disadvantage to the RM-12. Power handling is similar with the C12XL and GB12 but half of the rated power of the RM-12.
> 
> So those are all specs and you could say the Illusion Audio uses better technology but they use XBL2, which is the same technology used in the RM-12. I’m not familiar with the design of the AF GB12 but it has proven to be a very high quality design.
> 
> ...


Are you saying that both the RM and the AI subs use the XBL2 technology? I am not aware that either of them does, and i own the RM12


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## Oscar (Jun 20, 2010)

miniSQ said:


> Are you saying that both the RM and the AI subs use the XBL2 technology? I am not aware that either of them does, and i own the RM12


He's in over his head, as we can all clearly see the RM-12 does not. But it's ok, he has us here to help him, as long as he is willing to learn. 


Ohhh, I see Adire also brought back the Tumult 12/15's. Basically the old RE XXX's! I had one of them that I regrettably sold. I remember they sold for $375 direct back in the day! My how things have changed! $600 for one! lol. No big deal. I'mma pick up a couple and never let them go this time!

MMMmmmm delicious!

Photo belongs to Adire Audio.










dgage, lesson #1: high excursion subwoofers that utilize XBL² have _MASSIVELY _thick top plates. That is where XBL² lives. 


But then again, the CSS SDX12's are only $350ea, and they have triple shorting rings inside the motor due to the modular construction of the plates. That is sooo enticing! Short of the Aura neo-radial motor, it doesn't get much better than that. Two of those, with 2-4 of the Earthquake high excursion PR's should sound absolutely killer.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Nirvana said:


> Illusion Audio would be untouchable.





Holmz said:


> ^Nice^


Dammit. Good one! I missed that one so late at night.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Oscar said:


> Really? You should stop now since you clearly don't know what you're talking about. This the SI RM-12 motor. Look inside the red square. Case closed. Please study some more. We can help. Just have to be open to actually learning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was wrong. I apparently misunderstood Nick when we were talking about subs a few months ago. I know he licenses XBL2 from Dan Wiggins for many of his designs and I thought he said it was used in the RM-12. I was wrong, thanks for correcting me.

I do have a pair of RM-12 and RM-15s that I’ll pickup next month but I haven’t had a chance to work with them yet. I have had several people PM about them and how happy they are with them sealed, not ported. I do have an Audiofrog GB10D4 and that is a very nice subwoofer. I’d choose the GB12 over an Illusion Audio C12XL just due to the sensitivity advantage of the GB12 as well as price. And with any of these designs being discussed, with the proper install or tune, the subs are of such high quality that one won’t be able to distinguish differences in distortion level until pushed hard and even then, it would have to be parked with the car off.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

Oscar said:


> He's in over his head, as we can all clearly see the RM-12 does not. But it's ok, he has us here to help him, as long as he is willing to learn.
> 
> 
> Ohhh, I see Adire also brought back the Tumult 12/15's. Basically the old RE XXX's! I had one of them that I regrettably sold. I remember they sold for $375 direct back in the day! My how things have changed! $600 for one! lol. No big deal. I'mma pick up a couple and never let them go this time!
> ...


Thanks for the info Oscar. Frankly, I build HT sub designs but I work with driver builders to get the performance characteristics I want. I just don’t get excited by those details any more so I don’t pay attention to the T/S specs to identify which would work better sealed or ported, or which designs might lead to higher inductance. I know that some decisions we have to make might lead to a higher inductance design but I know how to DSP around it. I was an engineer by schooling but definitely don’t act like that as much anymore.


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