# 92 chevy wagon, large format midbass, horns, ib subs



## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

Ive owned this car for over 5 years now, and have been working on the audio since i got it.
Im finally nearing completion of my first real build, and felt ike Id go ahead and post what I have at this point.

First, the equipmet
2 elemental designs 190v.2 18" subs. These are currently in a wall, and I am reworking this part in order to run them IB under a false floor, properly vented to the outside.
midbass are undecided, but Im working on a floor mounted, externally vented idea for a couple of 10 or 12" drivers
top end (800 hz +) is currently a set of id full bodied cd1ev.2 horns.
processing is an eclpse 8443 along with 2 of the cadence 1/3 octave eqs (not useing the eqs as of now, waiting until Im done before I add them in.
Amplifiers are passable right now, but an upgrade is immenent, I have an ed 9.1 (no problems here) on subs, a 9.2 on horns (also fine now) and a hifonics nemesis (serious noise floor issues here) which I want to replace with either 2 9.2s or 9.2xs for some more power available on midbass
sound deadening is a huge conglomeration of edead, second skin, raamat, and hushmat. I still need to do the front floors, and possible roof.

so onto progress
here my charging system. It consists of two iraggi alternators, a 180 and a 220. I get close to 300 amps as idle, if its cool outside.
I have 2 runs of 1/0 going to the rear, not because I need it for my current power demands, but because Im tired of replacing wiring, I figured this way it will never be an issue again

























The runs to the back are external, run along the frame rail, supported every 6 inches by plumbers strapping and is covered in techflex. Its been this way for months, with no issues so far, but Im keeping an eye on it. I have some solid conduit I can use if I start seeing signs of wear.
I never have voltage below 14 when running, no matter what Im playing, including 0db test tones at full tilt.

heres the horns Ive been working with. I bought them for a hell of a deal, but the catch was they had been sitting in a shop unprotected for years, so I completely disassembled and cleaned them before using them.



































Here are the horns, being test fit.
They arent quite to the outside, but without losing my e brake its the best I can manage yet
























that stage height and width was awesome, even without processing, but I had some harshness. I have not had the horns in for over a month, as I ave been working on making a baffle in order to completely couple them with the dash, and making a bottom cover, so my floor mounted midbass wont be trapped by the horn bodies and the bottom of the dash.
Ive got the front baffle built, but it still needs some fine tuning, hopeflly next month Ill get that done up.

Thats most of it for now, but Ill show some of the plans I have


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

here is where the subs are now, and where the spare tire is is where the subs will be mounted IB. They will be directly vented to the outside, with some gortex or some other air permeable, but waterproof material to block water and condensation.
The amps will also be back here, covered by a false floor. At most Ill have to elevate the false floor by two inches, possibly none at all.











Heres my custom made rcas and speaker cables. I will have 6 channels of the hand made ones I made, and 6 channels of speaker cable. Im going to oleave the 3 rca sets in place that I have been using, just in case I decie to add more processing or amps. I figure this way, unless I go optical or balanced I wont have to remove my inerior after Im done, I can just swap equipment.

rcas and speaker cables
these are nueritk ends (nys something or other, with gepco 61801ez cable)
the heat shrink is color coded, red for highs, yellow on mids, and blue for subs
white is passenger side, black is driver, and the red and black at the ends of the speaker cables is for polarity





























thats the extent of what Ive done so far, next will probably be reinstalling the horns, then IB subs, then new midbass.


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## niceguy (Mar 12, 2006)

Off to a good start....Large format midbasses sound like fun...


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## tintbox (Oct 25, 2008)

hell yeah!


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

okay, so I made some progress today while my kid was sleeping. Basically I ran my custom rcas and cleaned up my existing wiring




























The power and ground wires are still a mess. I will clean them up once I permanently mount the amps under the floor


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## slvrtsunami (Apr 18, 2008)

hmmmm, sub'd


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

So Im working on the IB setup in the rear, but Im running into a problem with the venting. I havent been able to locate any sort of water tight/breathable barrier that Im happy with yet. The best decision I have come up with is wrapping a home air conditioner vent with some sort of open cell foam, but Im concerned with mildew or mold. The next option I considered was getting 4 or 5 4" 90 degree pvc elbows, and pointing them to the back of the car. I know Ill avoid any major water entry like that, but I will get some condensation into the manifold area of the setup. Id like to make this a "fix it and forget it" type thing, but worried about having problems down the road with either of these setups.

I dont want to use gortex, since it would become disgustingly gross after a while, but maybe an ac vent or wet dry vac filter over the tops of the pvc piping?

Id appreciate any input here, thanks in advance


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

cheap k/n air filter knock-offs . they will probably resist moisture a little better than paper elements from a shop vac...


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

stinky06 said:


> cheap k/n air filter knock-offs . they will probably resist moisture a little better than paper elements from a shop vac...


thats not a bad idea, plus with the band clamps they use it would be easy to replace if needed


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

any more sugegstions on a less expensive waterproof membrane?
It appears the the pvcelbows are my best bet, and may not need anything besides some cloth covering the ends, but Id like something more permanant.


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

Ive been working on the venting for the IB substage today. I originally planned on using 2 6" pvc tubes about 6 inches long. Im concerned that this may not be enough, now that Ive cut the holes. The subs have 22 mm xmax, and Illbe running less than 600wrms per sub. Does anyone know why two 6" x 6" round vents wouldnt work?


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

give it a whirl.... you can always come back and enlarge the vent area, if needed


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

thats my plan. I got the basics of the manifold done tonight, and will hopefully have the amp rack and sub baffle done tommorrow. Ill update with pics then. i probably wont have music till saturday. Im pretty pumped, my first IB build

Im off work until next thursday, so I have close to a weel to get the rear of the car done and finished out


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

so I had around ten hours today. My kids at my parents, my wife was at work, and Im on vacation. So what do I do? Bust my ass all day.

Heres a section of the venting I cut... Think I have enough deadener here?









I used my 4" holesaw to drill a "pilot hole" of sorts, then enlarged it with my sawzall.











Heres the basic mounting system I used. I later "filled in the blanks" with some scrap and then covered it with a layer of 3/4" MDF










Heres a view from underneath, the pvc was later trimmed down and painted black to blend in better









This is the result of killing a sheet of cardboard and burning up my jigsaw blade.
Fits like a glove now










I tried to use spray paint from underneath to shadow where the holes were, I was really proud of this insight, until i cur the hole and they were too big. I used some more expanding foam and shaved it down. Its water tight, but ugly.











I bought these grills at Lowes, thinking I was pretty smart. They had a big red label that said "22.5" I start working with them and realize something isnt quite right. Theyre really only about 17" across, I guess the 22.5" was the size grill they fit. Back to the drawing board on this I guess










Heres the manifold for the subs, its a very tight fit.










Heres the bottom of the amp rack, I will be putting the equipment on there tommorrow, I have an hour and a half drive to pick up my kid, so tunes are needed


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

The subs were a very tight fit on the manifold. They actually over hang the edges. I flushmounted them, and will be sourcing a grill soon hopefully.




























Im going to build a beauty panel that covers the back. I have about .8" between the tailgate and sub enclosure. Almost like I planned it or something.










Heres the basic idea of how Im going to lay the amp rack out. I stll need to build plexi covers for the ID cd1ev.2 crossovers and the cadence eqs.









And heres a pic of the car










So tommorrow Im going to mount the subs and waterproof the manifold/enclosure with some latex paint, mount the subs with some t nuts, and get the amp rack back in and running. The amp rack cover and grills may not be ready tommorrow, but hopefully Ill have music for the trip. Any suggestions are welcome, this is a "by the seat of the pants" type of install, probably why it took all day and I didnt finish


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

cool & unique build. When you say "manifold" you mean baffle, right?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You need atleast a third of the Sd of the speaker for it to work IB, and a half would be better still. So you are needing 2 10" holes at the minimum.


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> You need atleast a third of the Sd of the speaker for it to work IB, and a half would be better still. So you are needing 2 10" holes at the minimum.


well hell, Ill have to do that later. I only had 12" (too big to fit) and 6" pvc here, Ill source some in a few weeks, this is gonna have to do for now though. Ill give the subs a test run tommorrow, and see if its bearable for a bit


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

sydmonster said:


> cool & unique build. When you say "manifold" you mean baffle, right?


yeah, I always use both terms, never sure which was correct


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## sydmonster (Oct 5, 2009)

pff, this is DIY, were allowed what ever terms you want ! No grammar checks here, I was just clarifying.


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

well Im going to test it with both subs and a single, and see which works best. Luckily I saved my cutouts, so I can easily reseal one of the mounting holes if needed. Will add some pics tommorrow of the amp rack and a few more of the build.


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

well the equipment rack and sub went in today. I had to seal the second sub cutout, but it was easy as I hadnt dumped off my scrap yet.











Heres where I ended up makin my own ground distribution block





















I ended up spending about an hour chasing leaks, when I secured the mounting baffle to the sides apparently my measuring was off, and I ended up pulling about a 1/4" gap in the side of the baffle without a sub mounted. Nothing some "great stuff" couldnt take care of. Now Im off to lowes to see about returning the two small grills I bought and getting one thats slightly larger.

I havent done any tuning besides gain setting for the new two ohm load, but I didnt lose much, if any output, and have a much better low end now.

Hopefully tommorrow Ill get the covers done and be able to carpet it all soon


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

So heres some more progress.

I have the covers and grill for the sub finished, just waiting for the damn in laws to clear my shop out (they parked their belongings in there during a move) so I can do the trim panels and get it carpeted









the grill is a shelf that I cut in half and mounted a supporting piece of aluminum down the middle. Its ugly, but itll be covered soon









and the view from the front. My spare tire fits on top of this and is just below the seat line. Its bizarre being able to see out the back glass again.

heres everything uncovered, I have the flase floor cut into two sections, and hinged, so it slides up and rests on the sides of the amp rack for easy equipment access.











and heres my remote gain and voltage meter reinsalled in the glove box area.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> You need atleast a third of the Sd of the speaker for it to work IB, and a half would be better still. So you are needing 2 10" holes at the minimum.


This is kind of bleeding edge stuff. I've only seen one company that built a box like this.







Here's the speaker that does this. Emerald Physics CS2.3. One side of the woofer is on an open baffle, and the other side fires into a ported chamber.

Savagebee is doing the same thing in his car, but the woofer is flipped the other way.

That's the good news. The bad news is that the results are difficult to predict. You'd need Akabak or Hornresp to model it properly. I tried to model it using Hornresp, posted the results on diyaudio, and gave up due to wonky results. That's not a knock against Hornresp - this is just a really peculiar alighment, and there isn't a program out there which is well suited to simulating it. As usual, Akabak can probably do it, but you'd really need to know the program well.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

As mentioned in the last post, I am not aware of a program which is well suited to simulate the box that you are building. This is one of those situations where all you can do is build it and measure it. Having said that, here are some general rules when it comes to ported loudspeakers; these might enable you to sort this thing out.


Ports are like loudspeakers - the bigger they are, the more efficient they are. 90% of the loudspeaker programs out there do not simulate the affect of this. They treat ports as if they're perfect, and they're not. Enlarging the port on your loudspeaker can increase your SPL as much as 6dB. It's NOT a subtle difference. That's like quadrupling your amplifier's power.
As Winslow noted, a port that's too small simply doesn't work. You get to a point where the efficiency is so poor, it basically stops behaving in a predictable manner. The port that you are using is so small, it's going to be impossible to predict how it will behave.
A REALLY big port is ideal, but the sizes get out of control in a hurry. One way that you can cheat is to flare the heck out of both ends. And I don't mean an inch or something. I'm talking about a HUGE flare, like an eight inch mouth on a four inch piece of PVC pipe.







Big flared ports aren't just cosmetic. The flare improves performance substantially. It can literally make a 500watt amp sound like a 1000watt amp, if done properly.

Do you have the ability to measure the impedance curve, or measure the SPL response? If so, use those tools to adjust the port length for maximum output.

If you do not have these tools, here's some things you might try:


If you can't tune that port, then you want to make it acoustically "invisible." The way that you make it disappear is to make the port length EXTRAORDINARILY short, or the diameter EXTRAORDINARILY large, or both. For instance, a port with a diameter of nine inches and a depth of less than an inch will be virtually invisible. By "invisible", I mean that there won't be a measurable Helmholtz resonance. The speaker cone won't "see" the port.
Cutting a nine inch hole in your car is fairly looney. I did it to one of my cars back in the day, to mount some Dynaudios in the firewall, and it basically ruined the resale value of the car.
Since cutting a huge hole is going to ruin your car, you might consider an array of small holes. For instance, eighty one ports that are an inch in diameter will behave the same as a nine inch port.
To keep water and crud out of the car, I would install a layer of open cell foam. Heck, you could fill up the entire box with the stuff. Open cell foam behaves like polyfill, and will reduce high frequency output. (Since this is a sub, that's not a problem.)
The reason that I would recommend open cell foam over polyfill is that the foam is rigid, so it won't settle. And it will also do a better job of keeping crud out of the box. It's the same stuff they use in aquarium filters.

To sum it up, I think there are a couple of options here. If you have the tools to measure the impedance and the SPL output, use those tools to optimize this enclosure. It's a weird one, so there aren't any programs that can model this easily. If you do not have those tools, you'll need to make that port "disappear" by enlarging it's diameter, shortening it's depth, or both. The easiest solution would be to use an array of ports. For instance, nine ports that are three inches in diameter can move as much air as a single nine inch port.


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## slvrtsunami (Apr 18, 2008)

Patrick Bateman said:


> This is kind of bleeding edge stuff. I've only seen one company that built a box like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
:Looks like something you would only see at CES, what was the hotel called? It was not in the convention center.......


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

I have actually modified the ports pretty heavily, and recently.
They are now about 3" long, and 6" wide. My loentw endseemed to improve quite a bit, and Im fairly happy with the sound and spl of it at present.

Next i plan on trying the foam inside the box


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

Also, I have changed my front stage, at least for now.
I have some of those cult following tang band 3" bamboos and some dayton rs225s
Hopefully Ill get my shop back in order and find some free time to do some testing.

I think I will be able to get the 8"s in the floor now, since I wont be using the horns.


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

heres my question PB, since the rear wave and front wave are completely seperated in my application, would this not act as a true IB woofer alignment?

especially since my ports have been cut down so short?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

savagebee said:


> Also, I have changed my front stage, at least for now.
> I have some of those cult following tang band 3" bamboos and some dayton rs225s
> Hopefully Ill get my shop back in order and find some free time to do some testing.
> 
> I think I will be able to get the 8"s in the floor now, since I wont be using the horns.


Ack! Horns rule.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

savagebee said:


> heres my question PB, since the rear wave and front wave are completely seperated in my application, would this not act as a true IB woofer alignment?
> 
> especially since my ports have been cut down so short?


In a "true" infinite baffle the front and the back wave are completely isolated. This kind of alignment is one of the most efficient of all; done properly, it's like having TWO sealed boxes that are infinitely large. Basically you get massive output, with great transient response, and it plays very deep.

The problem is getting a baffle that's sufficiently large. Even an entire sheet of MDF is barely large enough. In a previous thread I mentioned that I built one that was 96" x 96" and it worked nicely. But that's not easy to fit in a car 

When you put a coupling chamber in front of a woofer it rolls off the highs. Go to quarter-wave.com, you can download documentation on how this works. So right off the bat, you DON'T have an infinite baffle. You have an infinite baffle on one side (the car's cabin), and a coupling chamber on the other side.

As the port in the coupling chamber becomes wider and shorter, it begins to be acoustically transparent.

That's why things sounded better when you made the port larger.

Also, there's a "sweet spot" where the coupling chamber and the ports are sized properly, but you won't be able to find "the sweet spot" without a mic and a woofer tester. That's why I'd recommend eliminating the effect of the coupling chamber by enlarging the port diameter and shortening the ports.


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Ack! Horns rule.


Im going to be doing some side by side comparisons, so the horns may win out. lol
Im trying to get the point source on the dash, as I havent been able to get my stage high enough. I still have a few treatments I can do to improve that, so we'll see.


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

So I finally got my TB 3" bamboo cone widebanders put in last night. I made a test enclosure out of 4" pvc and some MDF discs. I stuffed the enclosures with poly fill, and made some quick disconnect wiring terminals to make swapping easier.

I directly compared these to my elemental designs edi 6500 tweets, as well as my horns

The tang bands won out overall, much smoother response, adequate output (I may add a second on each side if I can manage it).

I had them playing with no eq, minimal t/a, just adjusting the aiming and t/a appropriately. 

I auditioned some bela fleck as well as some rage against the machine and some parliment to see what everything did.

The door mounted tweets came in last, for obvious reasons, low stage height, being blocked by my leg, plus most of the information was coming through my edi 6500 mid, which is behind the door panel and also blocked by my leg. smooth response as can be expected by the textile dome, but lacking in stage height and upper end response. Moving them to the dash made large improvements, but i was still unhappy due to most of the vocal range coming from my ankles. I got the stage height up to about mid way through the dash after messing with the t/a for a while.




The underdash horns were right behind the 3"s. The image waas nice and high, but my width was suffering. I need to do some more underdash work to make the horns couple better with the dash, but with the work Ive done it wasnt enough to overcome the advantages of the dash mounted 3"s. The eq wasnt used here, but I was looking for height and width in this comparison, so the tonality wasnt a hige concern. Ive had the horns sounding good several times before, so i know that they are capable of it.




The 3" bamboos were too easy. They sounded very good with no eq, and the width was much improved over the horns and tweets. The width should get better if i decide to permanatly install them, as the enclosures I made up protrude out several inches further than necessary if I molded them into the corners. The 3"s are firing about 30 degress off axis, and has a good sound in both seats. The depth was pretty good, but will also imprve with a more permanant enclosure made up for them, as they are about 4" further out than necassary due to the size of my enclosures.

The biggest advantage here was that I needed minimal tuning to get some good sound. It was fairly plug and play, with the exception of the t/a

Once I get my dayton rs225s installed in the floor I will again compare the horns to the 3"s, along with some better coupling between the horn body and the dash.


Ill post some pictures once I get home from work


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

So I was one of the lucky ones that won the free 40 Pack of SPL tiles on here a few weeks back. I have had a nasty floor resonance since I put some mid bass in the car, but have never got around to correcting the problem. So along came Ant and his promotion for forum members, so I jumped on it and got lucky


My first impression? Holy **** these are some heavy duty sheets of sound deadening. The foil (or is it mylar?) layer is extremely thick, but very easy to form around the contours of the floor pan. The adhesve is very strong, and grips curves very very well.


Unfortunately, I wasnt able to strip out my interior for this, but since the resonance issues were coming from the floors in front of and behind the front seats I was able to do this by pulling the carpet up and working like that.

heres the car














The resonance I had in front of the passenger seat was the worst, and it is still slightly present unfortunately. The good news is, is that after applying about 7 sheets to the passenger front floor pan I cannot hear the resonance with the carpet back down, so it worked very well. The noises that came from my floor was very very irritating, it was almost a ringing sound that happened any time I got up to about 65 or so. The SPL tiles completely fixed that issue, and reduced the resonance from the sub and mid bass to a level that i can definately live with.

So, on to the pictures.









Heres the driver side floorboard before cleaning and installation. By striking the bare metal with my hands i would get a nasty resonance that would last for several seconds, no exaggeration. 




























Heres the reason I had the time to do this. My little one had to leave daycare due to her having some pinkeye, so she wanted to go outside, so I put her to work throwing trash away. After installing the deadener over here I was shocked at the reduction I had in resonance. It was alomost dead to the ears when I hit it, so this is definately looking good.


heres some pics of the passenger side. For some reason the resonance over here was much worse, and is still slightly present. I added almost ten sheets to this side, but I was quickly approaching the point of ridiculously dimishing returns. Its probably a loose pinch weld somewhere, so I decided to save my efforts for elsewhere.

The resonance was significantly decreased however, and was inaudible with the carpet back down.


















Here is the rear driverside floor, didnt need much here, it was pretty dead already, but three pices, two on the floor and one of the transmission tunnel side made a noticable improvement.









This picture is to show how flexible this stuff is, even though it is so thick. You can see how well it follows the dips and ridges of the corrugated floor pan.









So, long story short, I like this stuff. Very thick, very effective, very affordable, and very easy to work with, in spit of its thickness. I have used several other types of deadener. I have some second skin sludge, some elemental designs edead v2, as well as their liquid stuff, some fatmat, some rammat, and some peal and seal. This i my favorite. The small size of the tiles along with the good adhesive and the massive thickness makes these a very good option, especially with floorboards and roofs. It may be a little more difficult to use on doors, because it is so thick it may not bend well on the more extreme angles found on doors.

All in all a good product, and it doesnt take a lot to do a lot, due to the mass in the small package available here.

Two thumbs up.


Also, be careful when using it. I cut the **** out of my finger on the foil layer.


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## savagebee (Sep 12, 2006)

Heres some pics





































I played with the aiming some today, and have been able to get a fairly coherent and stable center, but I need to do some serious t/a and eq work to get the stage deeper and wider.

Hopefully Im going to do the radio shack spl meter tuning trick soon, Im fairly hopeful Im going to get some pretty good results


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