# E36 M3 basic SQ install - PPI, CDT



## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

What started as a need to upgrade the stock speakers in my winter car is becoming a typical trip down the rabbit hole of car audio. 

I spent a bit of time playing around with car audio back in the 90's, with a collection of PPI products, JBL GTI components, and some nice old Alpine CD transports. Then I graduated University and had to pay back the student loans that funded most of my car audio addiction for the many years I was in school... 

As the car is daily driven, I didn't want an obvious outward appearing or flashy install. Just something basic to keep me company on the long rides stuck in traffic in the daily commute. 

First, you have to start with the customary look at the car. I am fortunate to have indoor parking at work, which makes winters up here in Canada that much more bearable. The car is a 1998 BMW E36 M3, with numerous performance and suspension mods, and is fairly clean considering its age and original paint. 










The overall goals of this install will be simple:

1) to keep a factory look for the interior, 
2) maintain full use of the trunk,
3) not compromise the spare tire, and
4) add Ipod and hands-free phone connectivity to the car.

I also don't really want to modify the sheet metal, not because I am a BMW M fanatic, but because I don't feel it necessary to achieve decent results. 

Components

Being a 1998 vehicle, it came stock with a tape deck with CD changer control. The changer being mounted in the trunk. I looked at several options for head units, and ended up with a CD43 - BMW's standard fare for in-dash CD players from the 2000's. This will handle the need for CD's and radio when required. It also looks absolutely factory, which is a huge theft deterrent. 

To deal with the Ipod and phone integration, I looked at several options - using a DICE kit or equivalent to integrate into the CD43, but ultimately I decided to try the Parrot Asteroid mini, which has both Ipod control, Bluetooth phone connectivity and A2DP streaming, and some other features like apps and a GPS module. 










For the Parrot 4x3 display, I was planning on integrating it into the dash cubby, but I ended up integrating it into the rear view mirror. I trialed my way through creating a one-way mirror; first attempt was using Plexiglas with mirror tint. As a mirror, that concept worked well up close, but the view distance rearward was horrible. I ended up using glass and silvering, which gives the all the properties of the stock mirror, without the tilt/dim function. I also integrated a homelink transmitter into the mirror while I was at it, so I could get into my garages at home and work without carrying the clickers in the car - not that there is much storage in the E36 at the best of times.

The mirror display works well - although when doing another, I would put the display to the right side as I tend to use the left when I mirror check. 




















to be continued.


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

****ing cool man ! Keep up the updates!


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

I love where this is going so far...


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## KyngHype (Sep 7, 2009)

That mirror mod is the t!ts. In for M3.


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## casey (Dec 4, 2006)

I love esotril blue m's and can't wait to see the outcome


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## carlr (Feb 27, 2011)

Very nice looking E36!


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## 07azhhr (Dec 28, 2011)

I have always loved that color on those cars. 

That mirror mod is awesome. Keep up the good work.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

swest1970 said:


> For the Parrot 4x3 display, I was planning on integrating it into the dash cubby, but I ended up integrating it into the rear view mirror. I trialed my way through creating a one-way mirror; first attempt was using Plexiglas with mirror tint. As a mirror, that concept worked well up close, but the view distance rearward was horrible. I ended up using glass and silvering, which gives the all the properties of the stock mirror, without the tilt/dim function. I also integrated a homelink transmitter into the mirror while I was at it, so I could get into my garages at home and work without carrying the clickers in the car - not that there is much storage in the E36 at the best of times.
> 
> The mirror display works well - although when doing another, I would put the display to the right side as I tend to use the left when I mirror check.
> 
> ...


Do you have any links on how you did the glass cutting and silvering? Or where to get the stuff to do it? I am working on a similar project, and was planning to use 2 way plexi mirror (that I already have), but if that doesn't work out I'd like to look at other options.

When I took apart the several rear view mirrors I got from the junkyard, I noticed all the glass was kind of wedge shaped, which I assume has to do with the night/day functionality...Could you strip the coating off the factory glass, do what you need to and perhaps retain the night/day function?

Thanks.

Jay


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## Old Skewl (May 30, 2011)

Beautiful E36 M. Very nice condition for a DD. Interesting approach to updating the Audio so far. I'm in for the ride as I have a E46 M and might pick up an idea or 2.


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Curious, what CDT speakers are you intending on using?


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

JayinMI said:


> Do you have any links on how you did the glass cutting and silvering? Or where to get the stuff to do it? I am working on a similar project, and was planning to use 2 way plexi mirror (that I already have), but if that doesn't work out I'd like to look at other options.
> 
> When I took apart the several rear view mirrors I got from the junkyard, I noticed all the glass was kind of wedge shaped, which I assume has to do with the night/day functionality...Could you strip the coating off the factory glass, do what you need to and perhaps retain the night/day function?
> 
> ...


Jay,

You are correct in that the beveled shape of the rear view mirror glass is what gives it its night/day dim function. I tried to strip the coating off the stock mirror glass with no success. That stuff is _on there_. I then tried to use plexi with mirror tint. No matter how many times I tried, I couldn't get the tint to lay perfectly on the plexi - there were always mini pinholes of air. This concept worked fine as a mirror up close, but in the car, the rear view was horrible. Anything outside the car - say 40 feet back, was blurry. Not very useful as a rear view mirror. I then got a bunch of cheap frames from Walmart, and used the glass from them to practice cutting the mirror shape. There are some great vids on Youtube to show you the correct way to cut curves on glass. I then used the mirror tint on the glass, which gives a very good result. This mirror was usable. It does not have the dim functions of the factory beveled glass, but my car has tinted windows, so night driving was not an issue. This version (glass with mirror tint) was in the pics on the page. The final result was done using silver nitrate, sodium hydroxide, household ammonia, and sugar. The components (silver nitrate and sodium hydroxide (lye)) are relatively hard to source. The process is quite easy, and there are several videos (again on Youtube) of how to accomplish this process. Once silvered, you would typically coat the silvered side with copper paint. Simply omitting this step gives you a one-way mirror. I coated the areas where the screen was not showing with black paint. The only important part is to remember to completely cover the front side of the mirror when silvering - any seepage around the edges will result in silvering applied to the front of the glass as well. Took me a few trials to get it right. Also, do this outside or in your garage with the door open and lots of ventilation. There is a risk of some pretty nasty chemicals that can be generated if you overheat (boil) the silver nitrate solution while silvering.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

So with the CD43 handling the CD and radio duties, and the Parrot handling the Ipod and phone functions, I needed looked for an elegant way to switch sources, and add some DSP functions. I was also looking for the ability to switch from the CD source to the phone automatically if an incoming call was registered.

here is the head unit installed











The PPI DSP 88R appeared to have the functions I was looking for, and for the price, I figured I would try it.

I built a blanking plate out of carbon fibre and mounted the controller for the DSP in the lower portion of the dash. The stock PPI controller has this incredibly bright white LED glow to it, which did not work with the rest of the interior lighting. I decided to change the LED's to red. Seeing as how at my age I can barely see the SMT LEDs, let alone solder new ones in place, I simply used translucent red plastic paint and painted the inside of the display. Looked good enough for me.










Speakers - Front stage

For the front stage, the car originally used had a 3 way setup, with mids in the kick panels and tweeters near the front of the door panels - a significant distance away. I wanted to maintain the three way front stage, and stay active so I could play with the mid output to balance the kickpanel mounted midbass and the high door mount tweeter. I chose to stay with the factory locations to simplify the install; that and I didn't want to crowd the kickpanel area with pods or build outs. 

I usually audition speakers before I purchase, however in this case I took a risk on CDT Audio components. I was looking for a laid-back tweeter, and the ES-010WD's came recommended. I coupled those with the HD-03 mid and the HD-M6 midbass. The midbass compared to the stock is shown below:










The midbasses required some dremel work to get the baskets to fit, but there is plenty of room in the M3 coupe kick panels. After dynamat and some fibrefill, the drivers fit well. The kick panel covers needed trimming to clear the driver surrounds, and while I was expecting to have to build custom grills if I encountered vibrations at full excursion in the panels, they appear to be resonance free so far.

A bit of cutting required - 



















driver side installed - 










passenger side installed - 










I installed the 3" mid in the factory location, replacing the 1.5" driver that was there before. The factory mids and tweeters are installed in cups which are inserted through the door panel and retained with threaded rings. The CDT mid was attached to the threaded ring, and the cup was cut down to leave about one complete thread left. Just enough to couple the mid to the grille on the front of the door panel. I added a bead of glue to make sure the mid stayed attached to the door panel.

here is what they look like from the back side:










and installed from the front:


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

For sub duties, I knew the only way to keep the trunk usable and maintain the spare tire was to go with an IB setup. My car has fold down rear seats, and I wanted to keep that function. This led me to using rear deck mounted subs. Several others have used Tang Band 6x9's on the internet, so I decided to try that setup first. 

On paper, with their limited excursion, they are not really suited for IB duty. Modelling in WinISD led me to expect limited output in the lower octaves. I don't listed to music that typically has a lot of bass, and I got a pair locally really cheap, so it was going to be no loss if it didn't work out. 

I made spacer panels out of MDF which matched the factory speaker mounting location on the underside of the rear deck. These adapter plates were bolted through from the top side of the deck. 










I powered these with a JL JX500 that I had lying around. The JL has a remote sub level control, which I installed in the trim panel below the DSP controller. The sub amp is mounted along the left side of the trunk - as can be seen below - and the trunk carpet needed to be worked to clear the amp location. 

Sub amp (you can see the DSP mounted in the original factory amp location)










and controller










For those wondering why I didn't mount the sub level control in the carbon plate, the reason is that the subs were actually installed first - at a time the factory system was still being used. The mess of wiring is the result of the DSP integration and amp install, and has yet to be cleared up due to the onset of winter. Winter sucks.

I also like rear fill in my systems. I know the purists disagree, but to me, it seems like something is missing if I leave out the rears.

As I had used the stock rear locations for the subs, and the E36 convertibles use rear quarter locations for the rear speakers, I fabbed up some mounting plates and installed a set of CDT CL5 mids and some leftover MB Quart tweeters. 










I bought sets of speaker grilles (mids and tweets) from the convertible E36 and will install these in my coupe rear trim panels. I have since acquired another set of ES-010's to replace the el-cheapo Quarts, but the tweeter install and rear panel finish work will have to wait until spring. 

Amps

The PPI DSP feeds a pair of PPI P-900.4, with 8 channels at 145 watts into 4 ohms. Each driver is individually amplified, resulting in an active 4 way setup. The rears are passively crossed at 2900 hz. The subs are powered by the JL, with about 180 watts to the pair. A subsonic filter on the subs combined with the power limiting should keep them within their excursion limit (according to WinISD).










The DSP is 8 output channels (for those paying attention) but I have 9 channels of amplification (mono subs). I had to make a choice on the DSP to cross either the midbass to mid using the amplifier built-in crossover, or the mid to tweeter. I chose the mid to tweeter. I may change this if I need more resolution in the crossover slope and setpoint during the tuning stage of this project. The amp crossover is limited to 12 db/oct, and using the dials the crossover point is a best-guess for setup. Once installed, I used frequency sweeps (looking for 3db down) to set the mid to tweeter crossover at 3000 hz, with the midbass to mid at 800 hz. This leaves the mid with a limited bandwidth, but it is a starting point. Subs are crossed to the midbasses at 80 hz, and the midbasses play down to 55 hz. The overlap was to try and bring the bass forward in the cabin, and to support the output of the smallish subs. Might need some EQ to smooth out the response, or raise the midbass high pass if they can't handle the frequency range.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

Gains were set using a DMM and test tones - 40 hz for the sub amp, 200 hz for the midbass and my ears for the mids and tweeters. The rears were set 18 db down from the front stage. 

I have a few tracks that I use to tune and evaluate systems with. The first track I loaded up on the system was the live version of "Hotel California" from the Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" album. 

First impressions were the power of the kick drum being delivered from the mids and subs. The 6x9's give the impression of much larger bass drivers - I was not expecting much, but I was pleasantly surprised. Bass was forward in the cabin - the subs did not pull the stage rearward at all. 

Next I loaded up "Bird on a Wire" from Jennifer Warnes "Famous Blue Raincoat". I was smiling. Even while breaking the components in, I was hugely impressed by the dynamics of the CDT drivers. With no time alignment on the front stage, the image was reasonably centred and stable, about even with the top of the dash in height. The tweeters are smooth and non-fatiguing - exactly what I was hoping for. 

There is a bit of thickness to the lower midbass range, especially noted on Chris Coles' "No Sanctuary". 

Overall, very pleased with the baseline I have to work with. Now comes the fun part - tuning. And the not-so-fun part, cleaning up the mess of wires in the trunk and finishing work.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

swest1970 said:


> Jay,
> 
> You are correct in that the beveled shape of the rear view mirror glass is what gives it its night/day dim function. I tried to strip the coating off the stock mirror glass with no success.


After posting my original response, I did a quick Google search regarding silvering and found some videos. The one I watched said you could use Hydrochloric acid to clean silvering off of areas where you didn't want it. They didn't say if it would damage the surface, tho. What did you attempt to use? I know a guy I used to work with had used a razon blade to strip small areas of the coating off to put radar detector displays inside the mirror housing.



swest1970 said:


> I then tried to use plexi with mirror tint. No matter how many times I tried, I couldn't get the tint to lay perfectly on the plexi - there were always mini pinholes of air. This concept worked fine as a mirror up close, but in the car, the rear view was horrible. Anything outside the car - say 40 feet back, was blurry. Not very useful as a rear view mirror.


I had bought a 12x12" square of one way mirrored plexi (they call it two way but still) with the "tint" already applied. The company I bought it from had pictures of people using it to hide TV's and such behind that you would be able to see when they were on, but would disappear at night. I'm going to give it a shot first, since I already have the stuff to do it, but your solution looks so much better and may be a future project.



swest1970 said:


> The final result was done using silver nitrate, sodium hydroxide, household ammonia, and sugar. The components (silver nitrate and sodium hydroxide (lye)) are relatively hard to source. The process is quite easy, and there are several videos (again on Youtube) of how to accomplish this process. Once silvered, you would typically coat the silvered side with copper paint. Simply omitting this step gives you a one-way mirror. I coated the areas where the screen was not showing with black paint. The only important part is to remember to completely cover the front side of the mirror when silvering - any seepage around the edges will result in silvering applied to the front of the glass as well. Took me a few trials to get it right. Also, do this outside or in your garage with the door open and lots of ventilation. There is a risk of some pretty nasty chemicals that can be generated if you overheat (boil) the silver nitrate solution while silvering.


The only issue I have with doing it outside is that I don't have anyway to heat it. Guess I'll have to try and find a little two-burner cooktop or something to borrow. I saw some warnings that said if you don't do the silvering within 2 hrs it can make a poisonous gas. 

Jay


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

So I'm going to take a guess that since you already had speaker openings in the kicks that the M6s are vented to the exterior or are they sealed somehow (factory)?

Either way, looking forward to see what you views are of the CDTs when you are ready. Especially the M6s.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

JayinMI said:


> After posting my original response, I did a quick Google search regarding silvering and found some videos. The one I watched said you could use Hydrochloric acid to clean silvering off of areas where you didn't want it. They didn't say if it would damage the surface, tho. What did you attempt to use? I know a guy I used to work with had used a razon blade to strip small areas of the coating off to put radar detector displays inside the mirror housing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If the mirrored plexi was done professionally, it may work better than my experiences. 

I read those same disclaimers around the silvering process too. That is why I did the work in my garage, using an electric hot plate. With the doors open. I used a disposable glass dish to lay the glass in while silvering. Disposable, as the dish was mirrored when I was done. With the risk on boiling the solution, I would stay away from the Coleman stove idea. Too hard to regulate the heat output.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

Black Rain said:


> So I'm going to take a guess that since you already had speaker openings in the kicks that the M6s are vented to the exterior or are they sealed somehow (factory)?
> 
> Either way, looking forward to see what you views are of the CDTs when you are ready. Especially the M6s.


The stock E36's have cut-outs for a 5.25 in the kick panel. The cavity behind is not truly sealed to the inside, but it is not vented to the outside. The airspace can be effectively sealed with dynamat. I added layers internally too to damp vibrations in the metal panels, then filled the space with fibre insulation. I would estimate the area to be about 0.2 cubic feet of airspace, without the driver.

I have had the system up and running for a couple of weeks now. Just taking the time to post about it, as it is too cold to work outside and my garage is not heated.

The CDT HD M6 midbasses are playing from 55 to 800. They have a steep 18 db/oct slope on the highpass, and they are driven with 145 watts each. With the 55 hz cutoff, they deliver a decent amount of bass, and have impressive impact, with no audible distress. With the subs off, the front stage will play clean to over 105 db with music, which is loud enough for me. (I don't know what the limit is - mathematically it shouldn't be much more - however I stopped looking at the SPL meter when I deemed the music "loud enough" and before any breakup was noticed.)

I am really impressed with the ES-010WD tweeters. With the factory installation location, flat on the door panel and aimed across the car at each other, I was expecting less than optimal performance. Boy was I wrong. The stage is wide and higher than I expected, and they do a great job of centralizing the image, even with no time alignment. I like smooth tweeters, and I prefer fabric domes to metal. The ES-010 tweeters are among the nicest I have heard - they aren't the best, but they do nothing wrong. Their price makes them attractive as well.

The PPI DSP is another story. It has great potential, but I am encountering strange, intermittent behaviour.

The way I have the DSP set up is I am running the headunit to the high level inputs, and the Parrot to the RCA aux input. According to the manual (and the wiring harness) there are mute triggers that enable auto switching to the Aux input - a feature I was hoping to utilize to override music when a receiving a call. I have been unsuccessful getting that to work. The unit mutes correctly, but does not enable the Aux input. As usual, tech support has been useless on that matter. The inputs can be easily selected from the controller, and I listen to music on the ipod most of the time anyways, so this is not a priority item to get resolved. It can wait until Spring.

While I haven't had any of the resetting issues or loss of programming that others have reported, I am seeing two annoyances. The first is when you turn on the system, the DSP randomly decides to not output any sound. Simply turning it off and back on rectifies the problem. The lights all come on (except for the volume level indication on the controller), and the unit appears to be functional, but no sound output. Not sure what to do about that one.

The second issue is intermittent noise - what sounds like mild alternator whine, but will vary in output with the unit's volume control and gain settings. Somedays, like this morning, it is perfectly quiet. I have proven it to be the DSP (by systematically removing components upstream and downstream). It is only mildly annoying, but I hate noise. Another item that will be a Springtime fix - or upgrade to another DSP; Mosconi maybe?

The Parrot has potential as well, but it also has flaws. The biggest complaint is the boot up time. Seriously, it takes about a minute to initiate, and another minute to see the USB connected Ipod. The phone features work well, as does the ipod control.


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## Dr. T (Jan 27, 2015)

Nice work!


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## NealfromNZ (Sep 3, 2013)

Great install ideas. Like the red translucent paint on your dip-88r. The mirror idea is genius. Radarmirror.com is another way if you wanted to run auto dim.

Your dip-88r is typical behaviour. Mine does the same thing. The aux will get a buzz every now and then (I use iphone on the input) and I also get the no sound but remote works.

With the no sound I'm using the factory system for remote on. During stating the BMW (e46) drops the remote on signal for a couple of seconds and the dsp-88r will sometimes lock up at this point. 

I suspect a remote on hold timer circuit would stop the lock up from happening. The unit almost always will start correctly going from ignition off to position 1.
I can't remember if the e36 behaves in the same way.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

NealfromNZ said:


> Great install ideas. Like the red translucent paint on your dip-88r. The mirror idea is genius. Radarmirror.com is another way if you wanted to run auto dim.
> 
> Your dip-88r is typical behaviour. Mine does the same thing. The aux will get a buzz every now and then (I use iphone on the input) and I also get the no sound but remote works.
> 
> ...


I think you are correct about the timer option - if I turn the ignition to the ON position, wait for the unit to turn on, then start the car, it powers up properly every time. If I am rushed, and simply twist the ignition immediately to START, the DSP fails to output music 50% of the time, and requires a cycle of the power to get it to play music. Must be a BMW thing.

I have seen the Radar mirror site before, and knew I had a backup plan if I couldn't get it to work. Figuring out how to do stuff is part of the fun - especially for engineers.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

From what I saw on the radarmirror site, they didn't do custom ones, and the radar ones were like $500. The way the OP did it would be WAY more economical.

Jay


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## Black Rain (Feb 27, 2011)

Do you believe that you would get better performance out of your M6s if you gave them a bridged signal from one of your PPI 900.4?


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

Black Rain said:


> Do you believe that you would get better performance out of your M6s if you gave them a bridged signal from one of your PPI 900.4?


Can't really say - I don't have any amplification channels spare to bridge and try. I don't really notice any conditions where the mids seem like they are running out of power or hitting excursion limits, although more headroom can't hurt. 

I got mine through the discount section on CDT's website. For the price I paid, they are proving to be an excellent choice.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

JayinMI said:


> From what I saw on the radarmirror site, they didn't do custom ones, and the radar ones were like $500. The way the OP did it would be WAY more economical.
> 
> Jay


Thanks Jay - I looked at the Radar mirror site when I was searching around to install a Valentine One display into the mirror of my AMG. As it was a new car, I didn't want to try it myself. I never looked into whether or not they could do custom work, like a screen install.

Cheers,
Scott.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

Had this system up and running for a few months now, and with the onset of nice weather up here I have started trying to fix the outstanding issues.

I have been experiencing random and intermittent periods where the PPI DSP 88 will not output any sound on any of the inputs. Sometimes the remote display will appear to be fully functional, other times it will lock up or go dark. These audio blackouts last anywhere from 30 seconds to several minutes and start only after the unit has been operating for about 10 to 20 minutes, and only when the car is driving. I have tried running different power and ground connections, constant power to the remote in, verified the connections to the unit, even obtained a second unit and swapped everything one piece at a time from the remote, the control cable, and finally, the unit itself. The frequency with which the blackouts happen changes, but I haven't eliminated it. There is no heat build-up, no overdriving the inputs, and it happens on both units. The amps remain powered up too while this occurs. I even tried running a separate battery in the car just to power the DSP - to no effect. This one has me stumped.

I was also getting alternator whine on the aux inputs (on both units, to differing levels). I reconfigured the sources to only use the high level inputs to the DSP, which has eliminated the alternator noise, however the unit itself has a relatively high noise floor - especially with the internal gains turned up to compensate for not supplying a high enough voltage on the inlet. The digital input seems to have the least amount of noise, and is the best sounding input.

I haven't had any of the other reported issues, like the unit losing settings. I did have a period of no rear output and weak bass from the subs, however that was traced to a source wire that came loose from the terminal strip I was using for temporary configurations.

When it comes to signal summing with the unit, there are not any user adjustable settings to sum inputs. Trial and error testing has proven that using front and rear high level inputs to the DSP, the front channels are mapped to A/B/C/D outputs which are connected to my midbasses and mid/tweeters, and the rear channels feed the E/F/G/H channels of the DSP - which are my rear full range and subs. The aux inputs map to all output channels of the DSP.

Time alignment and EQ settings work well with no real issues. Playing around with the TA and X-over settings enabled me to reduce some response holes, which has resulted in a satisfying final tune. 

Muting each channel pair and running test tone sweeps has highlighted some resonance issues with interior panels that will need to be dampened this spring. 

The 6x9 subs sound great for most types of music and most listening conditions. They simply run out of output and can't keep up with the front array when driving with the window down or at really high volumes (I have tried to limit excursion with power and a steep 20 hz highpass to prevent bottoming). This will be fixed this summer with a set of AE IB10's, which should net a significant increase in output according to the sims.

If I can't fix the DSP blackout issue, then I will be swapping units. I really like the master volume on the remote control, as I have multiple sources - one of which does not have any volume indication - this enables me to set each source using a oscilloscope to its maximum unclipped output, and then use the DSP remote as the system master volume.


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## NealfromNZ (Sep 3, 2013)

I've had most of the issues you've stated with the DSP

My 30 second no audio issues was the voltage dropping too low on the remote on output signal ( two amps connected and it would only produce 10.4 volts of system power on). The amps where going into protection mode thinking the supply voltage was too low.
I've bypass this and power the amps on via a different method and no longer have the issue. When I last checked the DSP was only putting out about 200 - 300 millivolts rather than the 12 volts it should be doing.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

NealfromNZ said:


> I've had most of the issues you've stated with the DSP
> 
> My 30 second no audio issues was the voltage dropping too low on the remote on output signal ( two amps connected and it would only produce 10.4 volts of system power on). The amps where going into protection mode thinking the supply voltage was too low.
> I've bypass this and power the amps on via a different method and no longer have the issue. When I last checked the DSP was only putting out about 200 - 300 millivolts rather than the 12 volts it should be doing.


Thanks Neal. I will check into that. 

I have a 12vdc timer relay board lying around somewhere - I can reconfigure the amps to power up using that and the ignition ACC. 

As an aside, on any of the initial power-on instances where the DSP fails to start properly (BMW dropping the power to the DSP during engine cranking), mine usually starts working in a bout 30 seconds to a minute if left alone.


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## NealfromNZ (Sep 3, 2013)

Under engine cranking (mines an e46 bmw) the remote on into the dsp drops for about 3 seconds and comes up again. My DSP never recovers and stays locked up under this situation. Mine is a unit from last year so might have slightly different firmware which could be why yours recovers.

Btw. Was about to send mine back but warranty is only 3 months for diy install so don't get caught out thinking its a year.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

NealfromNZ said:


> Under engine cranking (mines an e46 bmw) the remote on into the dsp drops for about 3 seconds and comes up again. My DSP never recovers and stays locked up under this situation. Mine is a unit from last year so might have slightly different firmware which could be why yours recovers.
> 
> Btw. Was about to send mine back but warranty is only 3 months for diy install so don't get caught out thinking its a year.


On the way home last night, the unit locked up - yet again. This time I pulled over and verified that the amps remain powered up when my unit locks up. No amount of swapping inputs or changing sources has any affect. Just have to wait it out or reboot - which in my case means cycling the ignition. The worst part is that it is totally random and intermittent. 

I'm done with this unit. I ordered an RF 360.3.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

swest1970 said:


> On the way home last night, the unit locked up - yet again. This time I pulled over and verified that the amps remain powered up when my unit locks up. No amount of swapping inputs or changing sources has any affect. Just have to wait it out or reboot - which in my case means cycling the ignition. The worst part is that it is totally random and intermittent.
> 
> I'm done with this unit. I ordered an RF 360.3.


OK so maybe my last post was mostly out of frustration. 

I did what was suggested by NealfromNZ (thanks) and isolated the amplifier turn on from the DSP. Stupid thing has worked without any "blackouts" since my last post. Clearly this DSP is not designed to work with multiple amps, nor does it have the power to drive a standard automotive relay. 

In my case, the amps were staying turned-on during these blackouts, but the DSP would lock up. Overdriving the remote-out circuit was causing strange, intermittent behaviour from the DSP. It worked fine for a couple of months, then started having issues - the random lockups. 

I now have the DSP and amps turning on from the same circuit (from the ignition), with the amps delayed about 5 seconds. So far, silent turn-on and off - no pops.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

Started working on finishing up the interior - namely adding speaker grilles to the rear interior panels and installing a matching set of CD ES tweeters in the rear.

The E36 coupe never came with speakers in the rear interior quarters - opting for a full range setup on the rear package shelf. The convertible did however, and my plan all along was to use the convertible speaker grilles on the coupe rear quarter interior pieces to give a stock look. I have rear deck mounted subs, and the convertible rear locations seemed like a reasonable option for rear fill.

I picked up another set of CDT ES-01 tweeters to match the ES-010WD's that I have in the front array. I was unsure as to how I was going to install these, so I painted the grilles and tweeter bodies black in case the recessed install wasn't going to work and if I ended up surface mounting. 




I obtained a set of E36 convertible rear speaker grilles, and set out making the cutouts using an adjustable circle cutter. This tool is typically used with a drill press, but I freehanded it with my cordless and it worked perfectly. Lucky for me, the leather on my rear panels is still glued to the card material, so the cuts were clean. Some minor clean up around the edges and the grilles fit perfectly.





Here I have installed the new tweeters next to the CDT CL5 mids in a 3/4" MDF baffle plate screwed to the recess where the speaker pods would be installed in a convertible. I covered the panel with dynamat to reduce resonance, and the existing vinyl sound deadener cover was trimmed to fit around the speaker pair and was glued and taped in place.





The last photo shows the finished panel re-installed in the car. The clearance between the mid/tweeter and the back of the panel is about 10mm, and the sound is much improved over the cheap MB Quart tweeters I had installed temporarily last fall.



The next project will be to upgrade the subs and finish the trunk wiring and re-install the carpets. I have a line on some new subs to replace the 6x9 tang bands I currently have installed. The 6x9's work perfectly fine for most situations - however I like to drive with my windows open when cruising down the highway, and sadly they lack the ability to keep up. I do like the mounting location in the rear deck - so with some slight reinforcing, I will be hopefully installing a pair of tang band W8Q-1071f's which are a 8x12 oval subwoofer. These have double the cone area of the 6x9's, and should fit in the same location which will leave me with my spare tire and trunk space. These speakers are not available in North America, so there is still some chance that the set I located doesn't make it to me, in which case I will be looking for other options.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

My new subs finally arrived!

Immediately set to the task of removing the old Tang Band 6x9's to figure out how to integrate these new units in a similar IB rear deck configuration. These new units are 8 x 12, with a 4 ohm voice coil and 12 mm xmax. These are a low Qts driver, with a 27 hz Fs - which should work well in IB. These 8 x 12's have the cone area approaching that of a 12". Modelling suggests I can expect similar output from two of these Tang Band oval subs to that of a single vented 12", which is about 4 times the output of the 6x9's. 

Anyways, here is a pic of these:



I was planning on installing these new subs on a 1" thick MDF baffle directly attached to the underside of the rear deck. The subs would be under-hung and play through the existing perforations in the deck - I was planning on adding another pair of speaker grilles to complement the factory grilles in the corners of the package tray to let the subs breathe better, matching up with some of the existing holes on the deck. 



The rear portion of the E36 coupe rear deck underside is totally flat - installing some sheet metal anchors will take care of mounting the baffle to the deck at the rear. The front edge of the deck offers some challenges as it is not flat, nor does it have any proper flange to use that runs the width of the deck. I test fit a scrap of 3/4" material to see what options and clearances I was working with. 



I am totally open to anyone who might have been down a similar road or has any ideas. It looks like I can drill down and fasten the baffle from the top in the corners, and again in the middle, but the forward edge may end up being partially unsupported - sealed, but unsupported over a 12" span on each side due to the uneven front edge.


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## 1Sik1500 (May 19, 2015)

Do you have a Link for those 8x12 Subs? Id like to check them out..


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## NealfromNZ (Sep 3, 2013)

swest1970 said:


> My new subs finally arrived!
> 
> Immediately set to the task of removing the old Tang Band 6x9's to figure out how to integrate these new units in a similar IB rear deck configuration. These new units are 8 x 12, with a 4 ohm voice coil and 12 mm xmax. These are a low Qts driver, with a 27 hz Fs - which should work well in IB. These 8 x 12's have the cone area approaching that of a 12". Modelling suggests I can expect similar output from two of these Tang Band oval subs to that of a single vented 12", which is about 4 times the output of the 6x9's.
> 
> ...


What about using some m6 rivnuts in the rear parcel shelf. Use a m6 bolts and stand offs to fill the gap close to the unsupported edge .


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

1Sik1500 said:


> Do you have a Link for those 8x12 Subs? Id like to check them out..


W8Q-1071F - 8x12" Paper Subwoofer - TB SPEAKER CO., LTD.

These are only available in Europe since Parts Express stopped carrying them. I got mine through Europe Audio, but Tang Band customer service told me Blue planet has them in stock (blue planet acoustic).


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

Here is what I was thinking - sounds like you would try the same thing.



For the wood standoff, I think I will match the triangular profile of the upper sheet metal to give support across the full front to back width of the gap. I would then lag bolt through the deck, anchoring into T-nuts on the underside of the baffle - putting the wood in compression between the deck and the baffle. It looks like I can do this procedure at 4 places along the width of the baffle without interfering with the proposed speaker location (I want the majority of the cone area to fire directly into the triangular void space under the rear deck so I minimize compression loading the front of the driver). 

The combined area of the original speaker hole and the two square vents (sort of visible in the photo above) give me the effective area of a 7" circular vent on the front of each driver. I modeled this as a 4th order enclosure with a 0.1 ft3 front chamber and a really short vent equal to the open area and it looks like no effects over the 20 to 100 hz range. Hopefully I get some time this weekend to work on it...


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

Here is the concept from the top...



The 1" thick baffle should do a decent job of supporting the driver - the rear deck is pretty flimsy on its own. I did stock up on dynamat so I can seal and deaden the deck and where required. just need to find some Rivet nuts locally.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

After a few months of trying to find some time to work on the car, I have managed to get to the 8x12 oval subs installed. 

I still have to take it all apart again, as the car is getting stripped for a restoration this winter, after which I will put it all back together properly next spring.

Here is what I came up with:

First I made 1" thick baffle plates, laminated from 1/2" MDF. This was done to match the differing mounting heights between the front and rear of the baffle. i also built up stand offs to match the contour of the rear deck panel, which is an angular rise across the centre of the deck. This is the left side - the right is a mirror image of this.



I used a combination of M5 and M6 rivnuts and bolt hardware to secure the baffles to the underside of the rear deck. A bunch of drilling while upside down, after much review on the best places to drill... Also had to relocate the rear deck wiring harness, which originally ran through a hole in the rear deck, to running through a pass through in the rear firewall and over the right top of the deck - just to provide a smooth underside surface to bolt the baffle plates to.

Here is a view of the underside of the rear deck, the shiny silver holes are the M6 rivnuts. 



This image shows the front bolt locations, also using rivnuts.



Here is one of the subs mounted to the baffle plate - the plates are installed as left and right units separately as the one baffle was too long to install.



Right side installed:



Left side:



Top view;



from the back, (poor photo skills, looking into the sun while trying to shoot a dark space)



After some initial testing, considering I have put zero sound deadening into this setup, nor sealed the subs properly to the baffles and the baffles to the rear deck, I must say it sounds amazing. Huge improvement over the 6x9's that were in there before.

This setup still leaves me with the majority of my trunk space, still provides pass through access to the cabin when I fold down the seats, and still retains the spare tire. 

The two 8x12 oval subs have at least, if not more output than a single ported 12". These subs present a 2 ohm load to the amp, so they will have about 450 watts RMS available.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Nice work!


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NealfromNZ (Sep 3, 2013)

Well thought out bass install. Looks great


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback!

The car is getting restored/repainted (in the original estoril blue) professionally this winter, and the restoration requires stripping the car completely (glass, interior, etc) before winter hits - hence the unfinished photos. Once they were in to check fitment, I just had to power them up... I have resisted doing any kind of tuning on them though. Not much point in that right now.

I will do all the finish work and dampening install when I reinstall the interior next spring.

I haven't decided whether to carpet or cover the sub plates with vinyl. All I do know is that I need to replace my sub amp, as it has been giving me some problems over the summer cutting out (going into protection mode) randomly. Probably going to go with a PPI phantom 1000 to match the rest.


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## NealfromNZ (Sep 3, 2013)

You could get the baffles paint the same colour as the trunk paint when you paint the car. Btw the amp protection mode could be the dsp-88r power on circuitry failing . My amps were doing this before it failed for good. I power the remote on the to the amps separately now . No issues with protection mode any more. Importantly I get no clicks or pops when the dsp starts/stops. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

NealfromNZ said:


> You could get the baffles paint the same colour as the trunk paint when you paint the car. Btw the amp protection mode could be the dsp-88r power on circuitry failing . My amps were doing this before it failed for good. I power the remote on the to the amps separately now . No issues with protection mode any more. Importantly I get no clicks or pops when the dsp starts/stops.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks Neal,

I use a digital relay timer from the accessory power to switch on all of the amps separately from the DSP - so that isn't the issue. I changed to the relay for the amps as my DSP lockups were from pulling too much current on the remote out circuit. Ever since I changed to the relay timer to switch on the amps, the DSP hasn't had any issues.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Very sharp install and way to go being creative with the mirror. Can I see a photo of your AMG please, as I'm not used to seeing a white one.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

Coppertone said:


> Very sharp install and way to go being creative with the mirror. Can I see a photo of your AMG please, as I'm not used to seeing a white one.


here you go...



and I especially like this one...


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

^^^. I can see your point behind that lol.


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

totally not audio related, but someone managed to get a neat shot of my M3 while on a cruise this summer with one of the local BMW clubs...


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## Baby M3 (Jun 4, 2014)

Very cool cars you have. 

Funny. We both have E36 M3s and fast white sedans. In my case, it's a BMW M5, not an AMG. 

Great photo of your M3! Though I am partial to my wheels, I personally think AC Schnizter and BBS RS-GT wheels look the best on an Estroil Blue E36.

Sorry for taking this thread off topic. Love the mirror mod.!

Jon


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## swest1970 (Oct 23, 2014)

So as winter is approaching and my M3 will be going into the restoration shop early in the new year, I resurrected an old Chev Cavalier to be my winter beater.






Obviously, it needed tunes. 

I figured I would take one nice day from this long weekend and install something quickly. No laughing - as I said, this was done quickly.

I got the car off a young kid a while ago and I was intending to give it to my kid. Strange enough, my kid had no interest in the car, so it sat around until a hail storm totalled it. I got the payout which was more than I paid for it, and the insurance company let me keep the car. I figured I would use it someday. 

I had to rip out the air conditioning, as the compressor had seized, and replace the sparkplugs as it was running on two cylinders. After that, and driving around a while to scrape the rust off the brakes, it seems to run just fine.

The previous owner had installed a sub in the trunk and an aftermarket deck and speakers in the factory locations in the doors, so it already had power wires going to the trunk, dedicated speaker wires to the doors and a scosche adapter for the deck. Good enough for a temporary install. 

I dug through my audio collection and settled on a simple setup - 

Kenwood Excelon X995 deck for CD/ipod control, phone (rescued from my kids car before it got towed to the scrap yard)
Alpine pdx-4.150 (had lying around from a previous install)
Hertz HSK 165xl front separates (got these 70% off at a local stores boxing day sale and have been waiting for an opportunity to use these)
Energy 12" sub enclosure (my local audio store was practically giving these away during a clearout - had it in the garage as a sub)

The front two channels of the amp power the passive two way 165xls, and bridge the rear two channels for the sub.

This install only has to last the winter and next spring, so it is very temporary.

here's what I got done in a day:

deck installed - used the previous owners deck adapter and RCA's and turn on wire. Had to splice and solder the deck power, ground and lighting. Took about 5 minutes to get the dash apart in this car - over half of the screws were missing. 



I built some new spacers for the Hertz midbasses out of 0.75" MDF and coated them with bedliner. Turns out they were nowhere near thick enough to clear the window. So I added a 0.25" spacer to the back of the MDF, which was too close for comfort, so I added another ring on the front to be safe. 







I used my old dynamat to cover up the door openings and stuffed some denim insulation in the the plastic panels to stop vibration.














When I put the door panel back on, the speaker hit the grille, so out came the jigsaw again. I now had huge clearance holes in the door panels - but at least the speakers fit.





I needed to cover up the midbass - not because of the huge hole I cut in the door panel, but because the hertz drivers look tempting to steal. So I made a couple of grilles out of mdf, covered them with bedliner and grille cloth and screwed them to the door panel. No, both sides do not match - I was in a hurry.

here is the cover attached to the door.




For the tweeters, I hacked up the sail panels, glued in some holesaw cut trim rings with popsicle sticks and covered the mess with grille cloth. looks pretty good for about an hours work.



I had to wrap the tweeter bucket with a lot of masking tape to get it to wedge firmly into the holesaw ring. 

That took most of the day. I screwed the Alpine amp to the back of the rear seat and stuffed the sub box in the trunk. 





The Hertz crossovers were just ziptied up under the dash and set at -2db on the tweeters.


I will play with the deck settings tomorrow, but it actually sounds pretty decent.


Hopefully the rust and overall poor condition of the exterior of the car will be enough of a theft deterrent. I know I wouldn't look twice at it.


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