# why not go 10's in doors?



## Kpg2713 (Feb 10, 2008)

If you have the room, the processing, and drivers to do a widebander 200-300 and up and 10" midbass in the doors playing 40 to 300 why would you not want to do it? I don't see many people running 10's in thier doors, and I assume it is because of the work it takes to fit them. However, since I went to 8's I want more. I wanna do some serious 10's and maybe try going without a sub. Just interested in anyones thought as far as other negatives to this scenario.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

no reason not to other than the work and implementation to get it right... you think a door buzzes with a 6.5" speaker... triple the cone area, then what?


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## rexroadj (Oct 31, 2008)

mattyjman said:


> no reason not to other than the work and implementation to get it right... you think a door buzzes with a 6.5" speaker... triple the cone area, then what?


x2!!!!!
concept sounds great! however with out fully modded doors (not talking about just dynamat and baffles here!) your likely to waste your time, energy, and $$. However, done properly, results could be spectacular. Its just way harder then it sounds, you cant just toss them in there!


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

Faital Pro W10N8-200 10" Mid-Bass Speakers -


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## elparner (Oct 20, 2007)

Morel Supremo 9"


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## jowens500 (Sep 5, 2008)

Like this? Kevin, when you see this post, you can tell them what speakers you have.


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## Kpg2713 (Feb 10, 2008)

Lol, I managed to get my **** ass 94 civic doors to not buzz or rattle with a pair of 8's. I'm not afraid of the work. I am excited at the outcome! I see recommendations already. I am limited to 120wpc at 4 ohms due to size of amplification. Obviously I want the 10's to play as low as possible too so is a pro driver like the faital really good for me? I want to try a pro driver but I feel like the limited xmax and higher fs are going to be working against me. I am running my usher 8's down to 55 right now and that is good but at 5mm xmax I get worried for thier well being.


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## Kpg2713 (Feb 10, 2008)

How about somethin like this beyma? Beyma Speakers - Beyma 10B60 speaker - Beyma 10B60 160 watt 10" woofer for all hi-fi and studio monitor bass speakers. Beyma 10B60 and other Beyma 10" speakers here.


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## redgst97 (Mar 12, 2008)

Have you thought about trying different 8s in what you have now? Maybe you dont have the "right" speaker for your tastes/needs yet?

Just a thought

Although, 10s would be cool.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I really wanted to try a 10" pro audio driver in the door when I was designing my system. However, it was easier to run the 6.5" that required very little fab work with a pair of 15s that play nicely up high and enough processing to make it all sound like it's coming from the front.


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## Kpg2713 (Feb 10, 2008)

I've tried sls's, aura ns8's, and now the ushers i currently have. I am pretty happy with the ushers 8170 or somethin like that, but I wanna try bigger in my new toy  The 10's are actually going in a different vehicle... a convertible.


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## Kpg2713 (Feb 10, 2008)

Oooh. How about this eminence Eminence Legend BP102 10" Bass Speakers - Eminence BP102 Legend 10" Speaker - Eminence Legend BP102 is a 10" bass guitar speaker. The Eminence Legend BP102 is a great upgrade or replacement 10" bass speaker. ? fs of 35 and 6.2mm xmax. sens of 92db too.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

jowens500 said:


> Like this? Kevin, when you see this post, you can tell them what speakers you have.



Faital Pro W10N8-200 10" Mid-Bass Speakers - Faital Pro W10N8-200 mid-bass speaker . This 10" speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro W10N8-200 400 watt 10" efficiency of 98dB SPL woofer for all high power mid-bass applications. 

These ^ that Aaron linked above. I have them high-passed @ 63hz, 36db slopes & they do just fine there. There are some days I'd like to have some SLS 10's in there to go lower & to compare to the Faitals, but I don't need to go any lower when I got a pair of AE IB15's that can play up high in the 80-100hz range. And like Matt mentioned above, rattles are a big problem that are slowly getting taken care of.

I would like to try the B&C 10NW64's with that 8mm of Xmax though.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

elparner said:


> Morel Supremo 9"



Is that the finished look?


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

elparner said:


> Morel Supremo 9"



Wow, you'd actually POST that on a PUBLIC forum..... 

Lemme guess, sawsall and silicone... ???










Poor Morel, it never did nothin to nobody.....


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Maybe a bit of painters tape in there for good measure. I would imagine that's gotta be a mid-progress picture?


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

BowDown said:


> Maybe a bit of painters tape in there for good measure. I would imagine that's gotta be a mid-progress picture?



God I would hope so... good call though...

I donno, if you look at the silicone peeling at the top, looks like someone knee has been riding on it for some time... peeling silicone, applying lint...


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> God I would hope so... good call though...
> 
> I donno, if you look at the silicone peeling at the top, looks like someone knee has been riding on it for some time... peeling silicone, applying lint...


Silcone, fiberglass? What's the diff.


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## EricP72 (Mar 23, 2008)

jowens500 said:


> Like this? Kevin, when you see this post, you can tell them what speakers you have.


You got a pm


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

jowens500 said:


> Like this? Kevin, when you see this post, you can tell them what speakers you have.


This is some very nice fab work here. Wife would KILL me if I got into a project like that. Besides the SLS's sound great.


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

Why not? Just the fab work, diminishing returns (especially if you are running a sub anyway), and door rattles. But yeah, why not? No one's stopping you.


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

TJ Mobile Audio said:


> Why not? Just the fab work, diminishing returns (especially if you are running a sub anyway), and door rattles. But yeah, why not? No one's stopping you.


My thread would start growing gray hairs if I took on another project. :laugh:


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

Yeah forget the doors, just throw 'em up in the dash. LOL.


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

That would be cool to just have a simple 2way setup. Didn't chefhow compete with something like that? (9.5" Morels and 3" Trinity wideband maybe?)


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

ecbmxer said:


> That would be cool to just have a simple 2way setup. Didn't chefhow compete with something like that? (9.5" Morels and 3" Trinity wideband maybe?)


Think he still does. I know his system doesn't go any higher than 16k as a result. But who really cares.. :laugh:


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## elparner (Oct 20, 2007)

trojan fan said:


> Is that the finished look?


Yup, exotic don't you think? 

to be honest that was some test i was doing to see if i liked the outcome of using such a big driver in the door and a mock up of how big i could make a decorative ring, then **** happened and i took all out to send the truck to repairs and in the meantime think of something else to try 

hint:







Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> Wow, you'd actually POST that on a PUBLIC forum.....
> 
> Lemme guess, sawsall and silicone... ???
> 
> Poor Morel, it never did nothin to nobody.....


Should i fell ashamed of that picture? :laugh:

yup you're right saw and silicone a couple of beers also :laugh: :laugh:


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## Kpg2713 (Feb 10, 2008)

BowDown said:


> Think he still does. I know his system doesn't go any higher than 16k as a result. But who really cares.. :laugh:


Pretty much what I am thinking. I won't be running a sub, so that is some of the motivation. Running fr88's I am used to not much above 16k anyway. Never really felt like I was missing much.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

BowDown said:


> Think he still does. I know his system doesn't go any higher than 16k as a result. But who really cares.. :laugh:



I'm pretty sure I've lost most of 16k and up by now... :laugh:


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> I'm pretty sure I've lost most of 16k and up by now... :laugh:


I think this is why many people who hear mine think it's missing some of the top end it should have. I can hear 20k very well and to my ears sometimes my system is bright but to my bass head friends with hearing loss it's dull up top. Just a theory.


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## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

BuickGN said:


> I really wanted to try a 10" pro audio driver in the door when I was designing my system. However, it was easier to run the 6.5" that required very little fab work with a pair of 15s that play nicely up high and enough processing to make it all sound like it's coming from the front.


How high are you running your AE IB 15's?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

100hz. I've played them past 200hz and they sound great but they start vibrating the seats too bad. At 100hz the bass is still up front and they sound excellent while giving my 6.5s in the doors a break.


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## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

10s in the doors is my ultimate goal in car audio. I cannot do it at the moment in my current car and yet remain stealth. But my next car purchase is going to revolve around the possiblity of fitting 10s in the front doors easily.

I've been throwing around the idea of using these cheap (yes, I know the brand is laughable) shallow mount 10s in my next car:

Boss DIABLO D10F Flat Woofer | Overstock.com


The T/S specs indicate that these would be ideal for IB (car door) use:


```
Fs:    50 Hz
Qts:   0.814
Qms:   5.416
Qes:   0.957
Vas:   0.692
Xmax:  5 mm
Re:    3.6
Sens:  94 dB
```
Probably would not be good for sub-bass, but I would use them solely for midbass; which they should be just perfect for


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

My car can't fit 10s unless I re-engineer the door locks and window mechanisms. Luckily this sls 6.5 seems to be a beast.

I would love to rock some 10s for midbass otherwise. It's kinda sad nobody runs 10s anymore in my circles, my old Accord and James Bang's Camry were the only two cars with tens I've heard and they were amazing. The door build took 2 months so never again.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

The 10NW64s are great midbasses but need a sub for the low end oomph. Keep in mind that they have vents on the bumped pole piece that require extra mounting depth. You put these things within an inch of the back of the box/door and they will whistle like nobody's business. Also, I don't like them IB. Some have used them successfully IB but they really come alive in a ported box (I know, tough to do in a door or kick).


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

There's a few of us happily running Dyn MW182s in our doors...Not quite 10" but very close at 9.4 (24cm).

They were actually an easier install than the 172s due to the smaller basket design. It was as close to an OEM drop in as you could imagine (baffles and tons of dynamat of course).

There are a few cars that will accommodate them, Infinity G coupe, I suspect the newer Corvettes, my CTS, etc.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

analogrocker said:


> 10s in the doors is my ultimate goal in car audio. I cannot do it at the moment in my current car and yet remain stealth. But my next car purchase is going to revolve around the possiblity of fitting 10s in the front doors easily.
> 
> I've been throwing around the idea of using these cheap (yes, I know the brand is laughable) shallow mount 10s in my next car:
> 
> ...


I posted about this a while ago and got little response. The pyle and lanzar look identical all around $40. I was only going to run them up to about 200 and run a 4" mid enclosed....providing it would all fit in there. Also watch the TS specs on those pyle seems to be the only one that lists them and some of the others may not be correct.

To the OP the old Ed shallow 10 had a really nice response curve was flat to 50, I figured it would work well in a door. Not sure they are made now? PE has a new one now they had the chart. Anyway I figure on ~100rms the cheap flat subs should work ok. The idea is more cone area means the driver has to work less. While the cone may have more mass and want to vibrate, it should not be working as hard as a smaller driver. Anyway I can handle vibration issues in the install either way. I can only fit about 3" depth so can't use a normal 8-10".


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Se7en said:


> There's a few of us happily running Dyn MW182s in our doors...Not quite 10" but very close at 9.4 (24cm).
> 
> They were actually an easier install than the 172s due to the smaller basket design. It was as close to an OEM drop in as you could imagine (baffles and tons of dynamat of course).
> 
> There are a few cars that will accommodate them, Infinity G coupe, I suspect the newer Corvettes, my CTS, etc.


The 10" Seas Prestige for example has a surface area of 350 cm2. The Dynaudio is 235 cm2, that's quite a bit less. The 8" Seas has an SD of 230 cm2. It's an 8" by the definition that matters.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> There's a few of us happily running Dyn MW182s in our doors...Not quite 10" but very close at 9.4 (24cm).
> 
> They were actually an easier install than the 172s due to the smaller basket design. It was as close to an OEM drop in as you could imagine (baffles and tons of dynamat of course).
> 
> There are a few cars that will accommodate them, Infinity G coupe, I suspect the newer Corvettes, my CTS, etc.


Se7en,

What year is your CTS? My V wouldn't even hold 6.5"s due to depth issues.


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## south east customz (Jan 17, 2011)

Definitely law of finishing returns.
Will probably be sluggish 
I would do something more like a real sub upfront and then a good quality midbass


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> The 10" Seas Prestige for example has a surface area of 350 cm2. The Dynaudio is 235 cm2, that's quite a bit less. The 8" Seas has an SD of 230 cm2. It's an 8" by the definition that matters.


Fair enough...




SSSnake said:


> Se7en,
> 
> What year is your CTS? My V wouldn't even hold 6.5"s due to depth issues.




Mine is an '09. The 182s dropped right in, no cutting, sound great. There's a build log around here somewhere if you do a name search.


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

south east customz said:


> Definitely law of finishing returns.


Agreed.



south east customz said:


> Will probably be sluggish


Why?



south east customz said:


> I would do something more like a real sub upfront and then a good quality midbass


Why?

Sorry to be dense, but I'd like to know the implicit reasoning to those two comments. Diminishing returns of course, but if you could fit one easily - say, with no headache or install snafus - are you really saying you wouldn't?


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## south east customz (Jan 17, 2011)

A 10 inch woofer used as a midbass would not have transient response of a convential midbass

I believe in using the best midbass u can, they are super important.

Having a sub up front would give u a real up front bass and image better

If u can do it just because then cooI.
I built a comp car with 12's in the floor/kick and 6's in the dash
(Illusion audio carbons)

Most of the successful high level competitors have had subs in the front of the car.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

I've had the SLS 8 (sub) & now the Faital Pro 10" pro audio (midbass) IB in my doors & they sound completely different. I know there's obviously a difference in cone area, but the Faitals are SO much more dynamic in the midbass region it's really no comparison.

And the high-pass crossover point between the two drivers is a whopping 13hz (50-63) so the upfront bass is there.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

south east customz said:


> A 10 inch woofer used as a midbass would not have transient response of a convential midbass
> 
> I believe in using the best midbass u can, they are super important.
> 
> ...


Agreed on the transient response but there are more aspects of sound reproduction that come into play, like nonlinear distortion and compression. Most 7's operate well outside of their linear range as a midbass, I think that would trump the transient response. Before testing the SLS I really didn't believe in 7" midbass. 

Subs in the front are ok for parking lot listening, that is true. Most enthusiasts would not be pleased with the output in a real world situation with road noise and the occasional ich to bump.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

The transient response arguement is a myth. 

Think about transient response as 0-60MPH performance. Saying a bigger woofer is slower is exactly the same as saying a bigger (or heavier) car isalways slower than a smaller or lighter one. Of course that's not true, because a big heavy car with 500HP is likely to beat a Yaris despite the difference in size or weight. what makes the difference? The engine. 

You don't need a huge midbass driver in the door to "go low" unless you require insanely high listening levels. This is why pro-sound midrange drivers can sometimes be 10" or 12" drivers. That makes them right for that application, but doesn't make them right for a car and there's no need to put subs in the front of the car unless you just can't tune or would rather spend 2 months mounting huge speakers in your doors instead of buying a good EQ.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The transient response arguement is a myth.
> 
> Think about transient response as 0-60MPH performance. Saying a bigger woofer is slower is exactly the same as saying a bigger (or heavier) car isalways slower than a smaller or lighter one. Of course that's not true, because a big heavy car with 500HP is likely to beat a Yaris despite the difference in size or weight. what makes the difference? The engine.
> 
> You don't need a huge midbass driver in the door to "go low" unless you require insanely high listening levels. This is why pro-sound midrange drivers can sometimes be 10" or 12" drivers. That makes them right for that application, but doesn't make them right for a car and there's no need to put subs in the front of the car unless you just can't tune or would rather spend 2 months mounting huge speakers in your doors instead of buying a good EQ.


WOW, I was reading through this thread and I was questioning these two schools of thought:

1.) Why the need for 10" mid-basses in a small space like a car?

and in contrast...

2.) What is with this large size = slow.... way of thinking?

Some of the best sounding midbass I have heard was in a recording studio and at a live performance. Both systems had LARGE driver and in no way shape or form was the midbass SLOW. While speaker design is complex it does not take a PhD to know that a designer counters a heavier moving mass with a more powerfull motor if he cares anything about "transient response" as it relates to midbass.

Still, the natural transfer function or cabin gain in a vehicle helps mid-bass more so then say....that in a home system.

But hey....I guess with OEM systems having 8's in the doors and subs in the rear.....a natural aftermarket upgrade path would be a couple of 10's in the doors, two 15's or three 12's all powered with 2-3K watts of power! The meaning of the word *IMPACT* varies depending on whom you talk to.


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## Metal Guru (Jun 14, 2011)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> You don't need a huge midbass driver in the door to "go low" unless *you require insanely high listening levels.*


This is exactly why I want large midbasses/midranges up front - because I like my midbass and midrange LOUD! Otherwise, I would just listen to a boombox in the car. I want that snare drum in-the-face impact I would normally get at a rock concert. Once I can achieve that concert like impact from the drums, my goal in car audio is done. I'm already using 8" mids in my doors, and while I'm pretty happy with the result, I know I can do better with 10s in there instead.


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The transient response arguement is a myth.
> 
> Think about transient response as 0-60MPH performance. Saying a bigger woofer is slower is exactly the same as saying a bigger (or heavier) car isalways slower than a smaller or lighter one. Of course that's not true, because a big heavy car with 500HP is likely to beat a Yaris despite the difference in size or weight. what makes the difference? The engine.
> 
> You don't need a huge midbass driver in the door to "go low" unless you require insanely high listening levels. This is why pro-sound midrange drivers can sometimes be 10" or 12" drivers. That makes them right for that application, but doesn't make them right for a car and there's no need to put subs in the front of the car unless you just can't tune or would rather spend 2 months mounting huge speakers in your doors instead of buying a good EQ.


I wanted to say it but thought I'd wait for someone more authoritative. Wish granted!


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

BowDown said:


> This is some very nice fab work here. Wife would KILL me if I got into a project like that. Besides the SLS's sound great.


but she doesn't for the 10" sub sitting in your dash? :laugh:


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Metal Guru said:


> This is exactly why I want large midbasses/midranges up front - because I like my midbass and midrange LOUD! Otherwise, I would just listen to a boombox in the car. I want that snare drum in-the-face impact I would normally get at a rock concert. Once I can achieve that concert like impact from the drums, my goal in car audio is done. I'm already using 8" mids in my doors, and while I'm pretty happy with the result, I know I can do better with 10s in there instead.


Snare drum in the face is not 60Hz or even 200Hz. It's between 1kHz and 10kHz. Focus on your mids and tweeters. If you don't believe me, turn off your mids and tweeters and listen to the snare drum through your woofers and midbass. Bass sounds like "mwaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmm" and midbass sounds like "bup". Mids and tweeters are the "thwack".


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## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> ... and there's no need to put subs in the front of the car unless you just can't tune or would rather spend 2 months mounting huge speakers in your doors instead of buying a good EQ.


Rear-mounting subs can often lead to dip or notch in the output near the upper end of the sub's response (~70 Hz). I wonder if front-mounted subs suffer from the same effect?


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I disagree with just buying a "good eq" and calling it a day. Its ALWAYS better to mechanically fix problems, before trying to electrically fix them. Electronic fixes are great for people who are average, but the people who consider 10's in the doors arent average, and they are the ones that would rather get something right mechanically, before resorting to use electronics to fix problems.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I disagree with just buying a "good eq" and calling it a day. Its ALWAYS better to mechanically fix problems, before trying to electrically fix them. Electronic fixes are great for people who are average, but *the people who consider 10's in the doors arent average, and they are the ones that would rather get something right mechanically, before resorting to use electronics to fix problems*.


Nawww....they are just bass heads trying to find mid bass to keep up with the 2 grand prowering their hellacious 100.4 sq. in. x 2 of surface area and 22 mm of stroke sub bass system in the rear! BAaaM!

J.K.....

I think it is assumed that to even put 8's in the doors and not have them sound like a buzzing, vibrating, and resonate debacle of a mid bass install ..... it requires work and mechanical soundness. Therefore, it is assumed that 10's require even more thought and skill. Even a 6.5" can sound dramatically different in the right enclosure in the door vs. just dropped right into the OEM position.

But lets not kid ourselves.....we all know that the "Best" sounding systems have a SOLID install FIRST....then some EQualization LAST to correct the ****ty ass reflective, absorptive, noisy space and non-symmetrical less than ideal listening postion we call.....a vehicles interior......regardless of the skill of the installer...i.e...NOVICE, AVERAGE, ENTHUSIAST, PRO, ETC.....

But when you get things right.....the vehicle can be a rolling private music listening oasis.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Agreed completely. I had a friend drop his jaw recently. He had always been a "sound deadening doesnt do anything" kind of guy. Had some $700 focals in his truck doors with no deadening. He had buzzes and rattles, and just not a lot of midbass output, so he had to use his sub to make it up. 

I let him listen to my dads truck, with some HAT imagines. His door is what I would consider half-assed dead. It has about 2 layers of damp pro covering all holes and the door skin. No metal added, no bracing. My dads are run off the stock head unit, my friends off of 100 watts. My dads setup easily had as much midbass as my friends. 

Fix your install, use the largest good quality speakers you can in the best positions and angles to reduce distortion, and tune it afterwords.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

What is this, a town hall meeting during a congresisonal recess? I didn't write, "Screw the installation, just buy an EQ". I did write that huge midbass drivers are unnecessary and that an EQ is, in comparison, more valuable...and it is.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Sorry if I came across that way, not what I meant. 

All I meant was that if you take a 6.5"mid, and the same quality 8" mid, the 8" mid will play the same volume level as the 6.5" mid with less distortion. This is something that cant be fixed with eq.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Snare drum in the face is not 60Hz or even 200Hz. It's between 1kHz and 10kHz. Focus on your mids and tweeters. If you don't believe me, turn off your mids and tweeters and listen to the snare drum through your woofers and midbass. Bass sounds like "mwaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmm" and midbass sounds like "bup". Mids and tweeters are the "thwack".


Agreed... Lot's of people, and not only *Metal Guru*, are focussing on the wrong freq range. 

Midbasses do not need to be much higher than 7" in order to have upfront bass either. 


Kelvin


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

It is a choice if you want to run an 8 or 10, or a 6.5 with much more EQ. (at least most 6.5). I can't see where using a larger driver with a lower Fs and a better response in the door IB down to 80-50Hz is all bad. Sure you don't have to, most don't run IBs 15s like I do that need nearly no EQ or trunk space. I would not put 10s in my doors for more output, though if I needed it sure it would be nice. I would use them for the flatter response IB, and in 10s the selection of drivers is much better as well as more cheaper possibilities exist. I don't know if those would work, but shallow 8s are few at any price...is 2" that much more hassle? Noting my need for 3" depth roughly. I can play tones all day and 80-150 hz is hurting in my car, and I don't want to play that on my subs. But I don't intend to play these high either at around 200 near any mid can pick up there or lower. I'd still prefer more of the musical spectrum come from those. If I don't use the 10s hardly, well then they will sit there at tiny xmax like my 15s do most of the time, making hardly any distortion.

btw great to see you around Andy. Seems that most are getting scared of having town hall meetings these days lol.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

With my 100hz lowpass on the subs and highpass on the midbass, I pulled the door panels off and cranked it as loud as I could stand with the bass boosted slightly on some bass heavy songs to give me a worst case scenario to check for excursion. I was tossing around the idea of an 8" to replace the 6.5" in order to reduce excursion. Since I'm getting ready to swap the dome mid with a 4" 430 that can play down to 250hz I figured the 8" might work really well. But when I watched the 6.5 it was barely moving, not enough to justify the expense and time. I would guess the need to move to a 10" would be directly related to the crossover points and SPL? Would there be any advantage whatsoever to moving up to a larger midbass that only plays from 100hz to 300hz assuming excursion is already very low?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The transient response arguement is a myth.
> 
> Think about transient response as 0-60MPH performance. Saying a bigger woofer is slower is exactly the same as saying a bigger (or heavier) car isalways slower than a smaller or lighter one. Of course that's not true, because a big heavy car with 500HP is likely to beat a Yaris despite the difference in size or weight. what makes the difference? The engine.
> 
> You don't need a huge midbass driver in the door to "go low" unless you require insanely high listening levels. This is why pro-sound midrange drivers can sometimes be 10" or 12" drivers. That makes them right for that application, but doesn't make them right for a car and there's no need to put subs in the front of the car unless you just can't tune or would rather spend 2 months mounting huge speakers in your doors instead of buying a good EQ.


It seems to me that small cones do decay faster. 

Evidence #1: Zaph posts CSD graphs of 8" drivers and smaller drivers on his site. Using the same testing settings: window, amplitude, frequency, time markers the small driver group looks like it decays much quicker. 

Evidence #2: Linkwitz's tone burst methodology places the small woofers in the group in the top spots for driver decay: _"The Vifa drivers 10 and 11 exhibited very good burst behavior, something one might have expected for the small cones. Unfortunately, they audibly strain even at the modest volume displacements of this test series. "_
Midrange distortion test

The original link didn't want to upload today, sorry.


The analogy of the engine here would be BL I presume. I though increasing motor strength in a speaker increases sensitivity wile leaving decay unchanged. Acceleration here would be sensitivity, and change in acceleration, or the jolt would be decay. 

The natural decay of the speaker and nonlinear distortion performance cannot be fixed with DSP compensation. That is the main reason large drivers are desirable to me. The alternative to increasing surface area is to increase stroke. Aside from the SLS 7", I haven't seen a test on a 7" that has the required clean stroke for midbass use.


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## Metal Guru (Jun 14, 2011)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Snare drum in the face is not 60Hz or even 200Hz. It's between 1kHz and 10kHz. Focus on your mids and tweeters. If you don't believe me, turn off your mids and tweeters and listen to the snare drum through your woofers and midbass. Bass sounds like "mwaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmm" and midbass sounds like "bup". Mids and tweeters are the "thwack".


Granted, the "twack" isn't midbass, but the fundamental frequency of a snare is around 100 Hz. It's not just snare impact I want - I want my car to sound like a live drummer is inside of it. 10s in the door _should_ give me that.


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## TJ Mobile Audio (May 6, 2009)

Metal Guru said:


> Granted, the "twack" isn't midbass, but the fundamental frequency of a snare is around 100 Hz. It's not just snare impact I want - I want my car to sound like a live drummer is inside of it. 10s in the door _should_ give me that.


I know it's semantics, but I must point out: I built a soundproof drumroom for my cousin, roughly 8' wide by 8' tall by 12' long. This is several times larger than the interior of any car. We put absorptive materials on the floor and some of the walls. She is used to playing rock concerts, but still has to wear earplugs when she practices in the drum room, I'd guess it's nearly 140 dB if not more when she practices in an enclosed space...

So, if you had a live drummer _in your car_ you would go deaf very quickly, unless you already are.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Metal Guru said:


> Granted, the "twack" isn't midbass, but *the fundamental frequency of a snare is around 100 Hz*. It's not just snare impact I want - I want my car to sound like a live drummer is inside of it. 10s in the door _should_ give me that.


Everybody knows that however Andy's post is correct. 
Try to find a car that has full size horns installed and listen to their system... The impact in the face will not come from their midbass but from the horns... The midbass+subwoofer will most likely give a kidney punch more than anything else <-- that one comes from tuning BTW. 

So you're focussing on the wrong range... 

FYI, if you really want to do 10s in doors, be prepared to do some extensive "taking down" of your doors. 10 layers of dynamat won't help you make those doors rattle-less 

Kelvin


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

BuickGN said:


> With my 100hz lowpass on the subs and highpass on the midbass, I pulled the door panels off and cranked it as loud as I could stand with the bass boosted slightly on some bass heavy songs to give me a worst case scenario to check for excursion. I was tossing around the idea of an 8" to replace the 6.5" in order to reduce excursion. Since I'm getting ready to swap the dome mid with a 4" 430 that can play down to 250hz I figured the 8" might work really well. But when I watched the 6.5 it was barely moving, not enough to justify the expense and time. I would guess the need to move to a 10" would be directly related to the crossover points and SPL? Would there be any advantage whatsoever to moving up to a larger midbass that only plays from 100hz to 300hz assuming excursion is already very low?


Ding Ding Ding...we have a winner! Nope, no need.


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## Metal Guru (Jun 14, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> FYI, if you really want to do 10s in doors, be prepared to do some extensive "taking down" of your doors. 10 layers of dynamat won't help you make those doors rattle-less


I think I am going to attempt it anyway. I don't mind cuttin' up door panels. It's easy with the right tools. Bracing the door for 10s might be a challenge, but I personally feel it's worth the extensive labor that it might require. And at the end of the day, when all is said and done, I can tell others the size of my door midbasses without any shame or embarrassment


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

The decay measurements are indications of the amount of energy stored and released in the various components of the speaker. Electrical energy is stored by inductance and capacitatance and the mechanical analogues are mass and compliance. The motor stores energy and releases through its inductance. The suspension and the cone store and release energy through the mass of the moving assembly and the compliance of the suspension. Since cones aren't completely rigid, there are additional breakup modes each with a resonance, which is a combination of mass and compliance. 

Linqwitz is quantifying several of these so that he can compare the drivers. What he's discovered is that two of the forms he's measured seem to be in opposition and he's chosen the "best" driver as the best compromise and has indicated at the end that further optimization would lead to other problems and cost a lot. 

So, what's the point? That blanket statements about one driver being "better" than another one based solely on one characteristic are oversimplified. 

The motor's job is to counteract the energy stored in the suspension and the suspension's job is to counteract the energy exerted by the motor. Diaphragm design is an exercise in choosing lots of small breakup modes or fewer huge ones. This sounds like a device DESIGNED to produce distortion, to me.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

BuickGN said:


> With my 100hz lowpass on the subs and highpass on the midbass, I pulled the door panels off and cranked it as loud as I could stand with the bass boosted slightly on some bass heavy songs to give me a worst case scenario to check for excursion. I was tossing around the idea of an 8" to replace the 6.5" in order to reduce excursion. Since I'm getting ready to swap the dome mid with a 4" 430 that can play down to 250hz I figured the 8" might work really well. But when I watched the 6.5 it was barely moving, not enough to justify the expense and time. I would guess the need to move to a 10" would be directly related to the crossover points and SPL? Would there be any advantage whatsoever to moving up to a larger midbass that only plays from 100hz to 300hz assuming excursion is already very low?





Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Ding Ding Ding...we have a winner! Nope, no need.


winner winner chicken dinner:laugh:


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The decay measurements are indications of the amount of energy stored and released in the various components of the speaker. Electrical energy is stored by inductance and capacitatance and the mechanical analogues are mass and compliance. The motor stores energy and releases through its inductance. The suspension and the cone store and release energy through the mass of the moving assembly and the compliance of the suspension. Since cones aren't completely rigid, there are additional breakup modes each with a resonance, which is a combination of mass and compliance.
> 
> Linqwitz is quantifying several of these so that he can compare the drivers. What he's discovered is that two of the forms he's measured seem to be in opposition and he's chosen the "best" driver as the best compromise and has indicated at the end that further optimization would lead to other problems and cost a lot.
> 
> ...


WOW...that is a lot to swallow


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

I think you need to lose the ten's

The can of worms might be too much


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> The decay measurements are indications of the amount of energy stored and released in the various components of the speaker. Electrical energy is stored by inductance and capacitatance and the mechanical analogues are mass and compliance. The motor stores energy and releases through its inductance. The suspension and the cone store and release energy through the mass of the moving assembly and the compliance of the suspension. Since cones aren't completely rigid, there are additional breakup modes each with a resonance, which is a combination of mass and compliance.
> 
> Linqwitz is quantifying several of these so that he can compare the drivers. What he's discovered is that two of the forms he's measured seem to be in opposition and he's chosen the "best" driver as the best compromise and has indicated at the end that further optimization would lead to other problems and cost a lot.
> 
> ...


In order to release the energy as quick as possible, if we are able to hold all other design parameters fixed, we could reduce the mass of the moving assembly could we not? The cone is part of that, so smaller cones decay quicker. I kinda lost you on devices designed to produce distortion. Is your point that a stronger motor can offset the weight of the diaphragm? I have no position on this but am willing to tag along for the learning experience. 

Linkwitz often has to make the choice between one type of distortion and another and his rankings reflect that. It's a bit of a black art I suppose. I did think that his position on small drivers being expected to decay faster was rather distinct. Speaker decay has recently peaked my interest so I've been hurling myself in any related topics. I want to know whether non convetional designs like planars, ribbons, AMTs really do decay quicker. Within that there is the small vs. big diaphragm debate.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

cvjoint said:


> In order to release the energy as quick as possible, if we are able to hold all other design parameters fixed, we could reduce the mass of the moving assembly could we not? The cone is part of that, so smaller cones decay quicker. I kinda lost you on devices designed to produce distortion. Is your point that a stronger motor can offset the weight of the diaphragm? I have no position on this but am willing to tag along for the learning experience.
> 
> Linkwitz often has to make the choice between one type of distortion and another and his rankings reflect that. It's a bit of a black art I suppose. I did think that his position on small drivers being expected to decay faster was rather distinct. Speaker decay has recently peaked my interest so I've been hurling myself in any related topics. I want to know whether non convetional designs like planars, ribbons, AMTs really do decay quicker. Within that there is the small vs. big diaphragm debate.



You guys are all way over thinking this


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Will a low mms sub sound noticeably different than a higher mms sub with all else being equal? The reason I ask is my 15s are pretty low at 152g and they do have some unique characteristics especially in the upper frequencies and the kick drum but obviously every parameter is different between the 3 different subs I've tried IB in this car and I'm assuming the mms would probably have the smallest effect of all the parameters.


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## s4k4zulu (Mar 2, 2010)

I need to sub. On this one.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

I agree with Andy wholeheartedly in this thread.

I used to be the dude that wanted 8" or 10" in doors. It just seemed uber car audio cool...I went out and put an 8" in my old Volvo. It was quite inspirational and nice for it's time. But now that I'm over that, the big thing now is dual 6.5s (or even 5.25s). 

Most 8" or 10" car audio drivers don't put out much more midbass than 6.5" or 7" drivers (midbass, NOT subbass). Cone area is nice but the curves of more modern drivers are not optimized to punch as hard in the 80-150 hz region...more focusing on the deeper bass. 

One thing for sure is that the majority of 8" and larger car audio drivers just do not have a whole lot in the 1-4 khz range compared to 5.25" and 6.5" drivers, and most guys using 8" in a 3 way cut it off at 300-700 hz further negating anything it had. 

A simple formula for lots of midbass and midrange punch is to maximize your performance from 80-3000 hz. A 6.5" playing this range will do lots for you....two will be even better. Even if you disagreed that 6.5" is more suitable than 8" try fitting dual 8s. 

Dual woofers just rock. You get the benefit of the smaller driver, but now you have more cone area than an 8" or a 10", plus the benefits of two motors instead of one. Pair them with horns and you're unbeatable in the impact department. 

Sub wise, multiple 8"-10" will be biased towards midbass more than 12" or 15", esp. the latter. This is a general statement relating to car audio subs that is true most of the time. 

All rules go out the window for home/pro audio since the drivers are designed differently. An ideal home audio dynamic super system would consist of 15" mid/woofers, 18" subs, and horns. So size isn't the end all be all, but it's important to understand the principles.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Yeah, I'm sure Andy will rave about 6.5" horizontal line arrays crossed at 3,000hz. Not.


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## BEAVER (May 26, 2007)

Why not go 10's in doors? To me a better question is, why go 10's in doors? 

I must be doing something wrong because I've always had more midbass than I care for with even 6 1/2" drivers. To please my ears, I seem to always have to use EQ cut in that region. I guess I'm weird...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

BEAVER said:


> Why not go 10's in doors? To me a better question is, why go 10's in doors?
> 
> I must be doing something wrong because I've always had more midbass than I care for with even 6 1/2" drivers. To please my ears, I seem to always have to use EQ cut in that region. I guess I'm weird...


Larger drivers have lower nonlinear distortion near the high pass crossover. That is where most of the nonlinear distortion comes to be in a midbass driver. Either increasing stroke or surface are will lower the distortion here where it matters most. The second effect is that larger drivers have more low end sensitivity and beefier coils make the most out of the power fed, reaching higher SPL levels at lower distortion and suffering less from power compression. This is actually in stark contrast to what FG79 is saying. A large woofer will have more low end sensitivity, not less compared to a similar lineup smaller driver. 

I used to underlap and cut a lot too in the 63hz-125hz area with the B&C 7". When I stepped up to the SLS I didn't feel the need to because the distortion dropped significantly. Heck the SLS sound quieter than the B&Cs in the midbass yet the meter shows a lot more output. Sometime we do cuts to reduce distortion, and I presume that's why you are doing it as well. It could also be the music you listen to is not very high on midbass. In that case you are fortunate to have a less challenging music style or listening habits.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> Yeah, I'm sure Andy will rave about 6.5" horizontal line arrays crossed at 3,000hz. Not.


A little too much theoretical reading and not enough real world experience maybe?


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## Kpg2713 (Feb 10, 2008)

FG79 said:


> I agree with Andy wholeheartedly in this thread.
> 
> I used to be the dude that wanted 8" or 10" in doors. It just seemed uber car audio cool...I went out and put an 8" in my old Volvo. It was quite inspirational and nice for it's time. But now that I'm over that, the big thing now is dual 6.5s (or even 5.25s).
> 
> ...


What is the benefit of a smaller driver if I only need it to play to 300, but want it to play down below 70? 

So if it is a subwoofer and an 8" it'll be great for midbass but if it's a normal woofer it won't? 

Also, wtf are you guys doing to your doors to make them rattle so much? I've done multiple 8" woofer installs with not much deadening mat and never had vibration issues. It seriously isn't a big deal if you do it right, use foam as well, and of course don't try to cram a driver somewhere it just won't fit. Just install the driver correctly, brace the door if required, seal it up and use foam between the door card and metal.


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## Kpg2713 (Feb 10, 2008)

BEAVER said:


> Why not go 10's in doors? To me a better question is, why go 10's in doors?
> 
> I must be doing something wrong because I've always had more midbass than I care for with even 6 1/2" drivers. To please my ears, I seem to always have to use EQ cut in that region. I guess I'm weird...


Really? Do you run your sub higher than 70hz?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

FG79 said:


> A little too much theoretical reading and not enough real world experience maybe?


Theory helps thin down the list of ideas to ones that could work. The only time you should be installing large drivers in a horizontal array is if you drive a carpet car and lay on your back. Even then there are things like comb filtering that should kill the potential of dual 7s up to 3,000hz.


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## cobra93 (Dec 22, 2009)

I currently have 4-6-1/2" sls woofers in sealed .3 c.f. enclosures in my front doors, I hate rattles.
This is in a 2000 ranger extended cab, BTW.

Everything sounds great, but with the subs right behind me I have to keep the x-over on them at 63hz., any higher and the bass is behind me.
I wish I had more output from them. Bass heavy tracks will bottom out these woofers if I'm not careful.

If you can fit a larger cone to do the job required, then why not go bigger?

I'm sure allot of the people responding to this topic have more experience/knowledge then I do, but people stating that a pair of 6-1/2" speakers is enough or more than necessary is their point of view, IMO.
I don't agree with this point of view.

To the OP, If you have the funds available and the time, go bigger.
Build some enclosures/baffles and try it, nobody knows what you like except for you.

I think bigger is better because you can always take some out if you don't need it. I like to put some 70-80's rock and have some bass/midbass like I do with the music that's recorded today.

The only comment I've ever heard someone say after listening to my system is "wow", "holy crap", or "damn, that sounds awesome".
I've never heard anyone state they didn't like something.
I'm listening and thinking I wish I had more up front, not less.

If I thought I could have fit them in the doors I'd have bought the aura ns 10's/12's while they were on sale at madisound a while ago.
This could've been a killer two way system and I regret not snagging a couple when I had the chance. Don't make the same mistake I did.
Good luck with your tens.


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## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

FG79 said:


> A simple formula for lots of midbass and midrange punch is to maximize your performance from 80-3000 hz. A 6.5" playing this range will do lots for you....two will be even better. Even if you disagreed that 6.5" is more suitable than 8" *try fitting dual 8s.*


Dual 8s, huh? :idea:

That would rock! If only I had the skills and space to pull it off!


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## Kpg2713 (Feb 10, 2008)

cobra93 said:


> I currently have 4-6-1/2" sls woofers in sealed .3 c.f. enclosures in my front doors, I hate rattles.
> This is in a 2000 ranger extended cab, BTW.
> 
> Everything sounds great, but with the subs right behind me I have to keep the x-over on them at 63hz., any higher and the bass is behind me.
> ...


Thanks for the positive reinforcement. Don't feel bad about not getting ns10's though. I used a pair of ns8's in my civic before going to usher's and they needed a LOT of eq in my install. I wasn't very impressed with them in the least.


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## cobra93 (Dec 22, 2009)

Kpg2713 said:


> Thanks for the positive reinforcement. Don't feel bad about not getting ns10's though. I used a pair of ns8's in my civic before going to usher's and they needed a LOT of eq in my install. I wasn't very impressed with them in the least.


Your Welcome Sir, somebody has do do it.

I don't know for sure, but I don't think the 8's are in the same league as the 10/12's I'm referring to. The ns 10/12 will reach plenty high enough for a widebander. I don't however think the the FR88 I'm currently using will get me the "thwack" I want in the upper frequencies I need to make it believable.
This was the one I was after. HTGuide Forum - View Single Post - Testing 1, 2, 3, testing...

I believe I do need to move to a 4" and a tweeter to get where I want to be.
I haven't because it's time for a new vehicle and new challenges.

I am a basshead. I don't deny that, but it has to sound good to me.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Kpg2713 said:


> Really? Do you run your sub higher than 70hz?


I do, been at 100hz for quite some time and anywhere between 50 and 150hz in the past. I actually liked 150hz for SQ listening but if I wanted to crank the subs it just didn't sound very good with the upper range boosted too. I have more then enough midbass as is with very little excursion. I'm always moving my foot away from the door mounted midbass because I don't like how it vibrates my pant leg and shoe. I agree with many that a 6.5 may not do 63hz that well but with a good processor like the MS8 I can let the 15s handle 20-100hz with no downsides and from 100hz to 900hz, there's hardly any excursion from the 6.5s. I'm not sure why more people who use processing don't run the subs up higher. It seems like the goal is to always get the midbass to play as low as possible.


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## jawn swagg3r (Aug 29, 2011)

That would be sick, but as Aaron said.. I would only do that if i could get it to look clean. It really wouldnt be worth it to look like elparners..... just my opinion.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

........and the beat goes on and on


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## Kpg2713 (Feb 10, 2008)

Well I for one never liked any subs I've owned playing up that high. It just never seemed natural sounding to me. Keeping it under 63 always let me get the oomph I wanted down low without the distortion up higher, on a sub that is. Idk if I am not running good enough equipment, but I doubt that is the issue with an eD 12O flatcone. 

I guess it comes down to the old saying, to each his own.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Kpg2713 said:


> Well I for one never liked any subs I've owned playing up that high. It just never seemed natural sounding to me. Keeping it under 63 always let me get the oomph I wanted down low without the distortion up higher, on a sub that is. Idk if I am not running good enough equipment, but I doubt that is the issue with an eD 12O flatcone.
> 
> I guess it comes down to the old saying, to each his own.


Some sound terrible up high. The particular subs I have, have a Le value as low as most midranges and a flat response out to 1,500hz. In the IB configuration they sound very good at 100hz and blend very well. FWIW, you would probably think the midbasses are playing those frequencies. It's just effortless on a pair of 15s vs a pair of 6.5s.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

BuickGN said:


> Some sound terrible up high. The particular subs I have, have a Le value as low as most midranges and a flat response out to 1,500hz. In the IB configuration they sound very good at 100hz and blend very well. FWIW, you would probably think the midbasses are playing those frequencies. It's just effortless on a pair of 15s vs a pair of 6.5s.


Here is a sub that extends out to 2,000hz in black. That is a test outside of the car. The red plot is the same sub in a 2002 Honda Accord. Note that because of the absorbtion of the seats and other things in the way the sub is -12db at 100hz. This is going to be hell to match well with a midbass going only as low as 100hz. 

This is just one reason why you may want to cross low, see here how 63hz would be a lot easier to implement. At 100hz you would have to boost the output from 63hz up A LOT. If your head unit does not permit it, maybe it doesn't have indpendent EQ per speaker like the P99 (blows) than you can't bump the sub but rather the midbass and sub together bringing non linear distortion to very high levels. This is why I cross the same AE drivers you have as low as 63hz. There are other reasons as well.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> Theory helps thin down the list of ideas to ones that could work. The only time you should be installing large drivers in a horizontal array is if you drive a carpet car and lay on your back. Even then there are things like comb filtering that should kill the potential of dual 7s up to 3,000hz.


Ok, you stick to what you think is the way (on paper) and I'll stick to my memories of what I've heard and enjoyed. ;-)

Theory would also suggest that analog tape, vinyl, tube amps are obsolete junk and that an amp with more distortion than another can't possibly sound better, but I've discovered the opposite with all of these things.

BTW, I'm a Professional Engineer for a living and I find it amusing how much relevance people in this hobby place on theory for home/car audio (which is as much art as science....if it was all science, everyone would have the perfect system). 

Meanwhile, all the great theory I had to learn in school and to become a licensed engineer is constantly being undermined by non engineer types who want to insist everything is simple and practical.....field experience and some certifications and they're as good or better. All of electrical engineering is Ohm's law and whatever is in the Ugly's handbook....

There is a legitimate compromise of theory and real world experience with the type of work I do, and that's totally fine. So why is it when it comes to sound, that practical knowledge of what ACTUALLY sounds good in real life is ignored, debated ad nauseum, etc?

Buwalda once told a story about a competition van that had speakers on the floor firing up towards the dash (right by the seats, pointing away from the driver) and that it had impressive stage height. At that point he said he threw out the idea that there are "rules" in car audio and changed it to guidelines.

IMO, the science of car audio is still not fully resolved when it comes down to all the complex issues. If you open up your mind a little, it will take you to the next level. I know it did for me.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

FG79 said:


> Ok, you stick to what you think is the way (on paper) and I'll stick to my memories of what I've heard and enjoyed. ;-)
> 
> Theory would also suggest that analog tape, vinyl, tube amps are obsolete junk and that an amp with more distortion than another can't possibly sound better, but I've discovered the opposite with all of these things.
> 
> ...


How do you explain the in-car test I posted right above your post? Is that home audio theory to you?

I'm not phased by your degree or appeal to authority. Show me that you understand the pitfalls of using large drivers in in horizontal line arrays in nearfield. Then show me actual empirical work in-car that refutes these drawbacks in a car application. Nothing in science is truly "resolved' but I'm sure you know that being a professional engineer or whatnot.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> BTW, I'm a Professional Engineer for a living and I find it amusing how much relevance people in this hobby place on theory for home/car audio (which is as much art as science....if it was all science, everyone would have the perfect system).


From one engineer to another, I understand and appreciate practical experience. However, I cannot agree that this hobby is as much art as it is science (unless you are talking about psychoacoustics aspects of audio - which it appears you are not). Just beacuse the average hobbyist (myself included) doesn't have the time or expertise to fully understand and model the speakers interaction with the automotive environment does NOT mean that the laws of physics break down once you sit down in the drivers seat (sometimes I wish they did). THIS IS ALL SCIENCE. Just because the average schmo does not understand or have the tools to properly apply the science in this complex environment does not mean the science has failed to explain the situation. It means we as hobbyist have failed to apply the scientific theories appropriately (more on this later).

I realize I will get the typical non-technical backlash from this post. Go ahead and swing away! The thing that bothers me so much is that if you are an engineer how you could post the previous comments. Remember that once upon a time people believed the world was flat. They lacked the knowledge/understanding to believe anything else. 

We are actually at a point where we have the tools (e.g. measurement equipment, processing power) to properly address the problems that have haunted car audio for years and you want to throw in the towel and claim all of this is black magic... Well, I will take another path. One that is guided by knowledge, experimentation, and a passion for this hobby. You are most certainly free to choose your own.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> Here is a sub that extends out to 2,000hz in black. That is a test outside of the car. The red plot is the same sub in a 2002 Honda Accord. Note that because of the absorbtion of the seats and other things in the way the sub is -12db at 100hz. This is going to be hell to match well with a midbass going only as low as 100hz.
> 
> This is just one reason why you may want to cross low, see here how 63hz would be a lot easier to implement. At 100hz you would have to boost the output from 63hz up A LOT. If your head unit does not permit it, maybe it doesn't have indpendent EQ per speaker like the P99 (blows) than you can't bump the sub but rather the midbass and sub together bringing non linear distortion to very high levels. This is why I cross the same AE drivers you have as low as 63hz. There are other reasons as well.


CV,

I don't believe many would argue that IN THE APPLICATION you mentioned running the subs to 100hz would be an unwise decision. GN may have a completely different transfer function that allowed the subs to play to 100hz without a major boost on the EQ. IMO it is all about the transfer functions and the trade-offs. 

I am having major problems with the mid/midbasses digging down to 80hz. Anechoically these things should be killing it at 80hz. WIth the expected cabin boost they should scream. They don't. I have a null sitting at 80hz for my midbasses. TO further complicate things, I have the same AE speakers (15" IB car version) playing through the back seat. They have significantly reduced output at that freq as well. SO what do you do? Boost the small speakers or boost the large? Well as a bandaid (until I can rebuild the kicks) I boost the large drivers because it takes them much less excursion to reach the desired output levels. BUT... this pulls the subbass somewhat to the rear. Solution, a little phase adjustment and for most music the bass is anchored up front. Still a compromise and the new kicks are in progress but this should illustrate that there is no one size fits all solution (even when using the same drivers). The car's transfer function plays a much larger role in the equation then anything else (something that took me a long time to believe even after hearing NPDang declare this years ago).


----------



## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

SSSnake said:


> From one engineer to another, I understand and appreciate practical experience. However, I cannot agree that this hobby is as much art as it is science (unless you are talking about psychoacoustics aspects of audio - which it appears you are not). Just beacuse the average hobbyist (myself included) doesn't have the time or expertise to fully understand and model the speakers interaction with the automotive environment does NOT mean that the laws of physics break down once you sit down in the drivers seat (sometimes I wish they did). THIS IS ALL SCIENCE. Just because the average schmo does not understand or have the tools to properly apply the science in this complex environment does not mean the science has failed to explain the situation. It means we as hobbyist have failed to apply the scientific theories appropriately (more on this later).


Well said. As someone who is educated in both art and science, this was more or less my initial reaction to the post by FG79. I would agree with the original poster somewhat. This hobby can be viewed as art and science. Just as long as you understand and accept that _art can be explained by science too_. This does not undermine the creative process, it just means we may not always understand the sicence behind it.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

FG79 said:


> ...Buwalda once told a story about a competition van that had speakers on the floor firing up towards the dash (right by the seats, pointing away from the driver) and that it had impressive stage height. At that point he said he threw out the idea that there are "rules" in car audio and changed it to guidelines.


Yeah, I remember back in 1999 there was a car that won Pro Class at IASCA Finals that had drivers in the floor. It was a Ford Probe ownd by Brian Morris of Team Ohio. I think they built an older VW Golf owned by Ron Buffingtn that won IASCA years earlier that had mids in the floor firing up. Cars like these definitely change the thinking of many as to what is possible. But there is science behind that as well..........don't go there...

Nevertheless, it's possible to get sharp, accurate midbass with impact using a 6.5", 7", and 8" driver. However, if one feels they need more....then say "F" whats normal and shoehorn in a 10", 12", 15" driver in the kicks, door, or floor. Make it do what it do...and be happy in our own skin! :rockon: And putting a 10" in the door of a vehicle is pure "ART"....takes the creative types to pull it off in most vehicles.

Hey...As much as I don't personally have a desire to put big drivers upfront....unless I land an old dream car of mine...an e34 1994 BMW 540i Sport with the LARGE kick panels....I might put 10's or 12's in the kicks of that car: http://milbert.com/Files/Autos/Earl/Caraudio3.jpg Hell yeah! Big drivers in the kicks....not in he door! :thumbsup:

...Anyway...getting back to my point...as much as I would not run 10's upront....I know that there are others that don't follow my way of thinking and more power to these guys. Hey, I actually have a friend that has TWO 21" subs in his truck....how many people can say that? No, I am not talking about a wall of multiple teenage subs...I am talking about TWO 21" adult subs! 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-spl-forum/82162-maelstrom-21-bass-how-low-can-you-go.html I need to update that thread with the latest pictures....

He has 8" midbasses now but I could see him running 10's upfront. Hell, he has a 6000 watt Soundstream XXX powering the two 21's!!! Duh!  A No Brainer....


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

SSSnake said:


> CV,
> 
> I don't believe many would argue that IN THE APPLICATION you mentioned running the subs to 100hz would be an unwise decision. GN may have a completely different transfer function that allowed the subs to play to 100hz without a major boost on the EQ. IMO it is all about the transfer functions and the trade-offs.
> 
> I am having major problems with the mid/midbasses digging down to 80hz. Anechoically these things should be killing it at 80hz. WIth the expected cabin boost they should scream. They don't. I have a null sitting at 80hz for my midbasses. TO further complicate things, I have the same AE speakers (15" IB car version) playing through the back seat. They have significantly reduced output at that freq as well. SO what do you do? Boost the small speakers or boost the large? Well as a bandaid (until I can rebuild the kicks) I boost the large drivers because it takes them much less excursion to reach the desired output levels. BUT... this pulls the subbass somewhat to the rear. Solution, a little phase adjustment and for most music the bass is anchored up front. Still a compromise and the new kicks are in progress but this should illustrate that there is no one size fits all solution (even when using the same drivers). The car's transfer function plays a much larger role in the equation then anything else (something that took me a long time to believe even after hearing NPDang declare this years ago).


Certainly but it's also not an outlier. I think that dip after 60hz is often found in a variety of vehicles. I believe the majority of it is due to absorbent materials between the cabin and the trunk. I hope to expand the California Test Bin and see more cars then we will know for sure. 

The choice you have to make is between soundstaging and nonlinear distortion. This where I wouldn't mind saying subjectivity enters into system design. However, people take subjectivity to be the underlying formula for system design which is just false. Proper tools and the understanding of it are essential to quantify and find problem areas. Without FR and CSD plots you don't know the degree of linear distortion. Without THD and IMD plots you don't know the degree of nonlinear distortion and so on. How can you choose which type of distortion to minimize if you don't know what you are dealing with? You can't just tune all of these things by ear, it's not good enough. So I agree with you that your situation entails compromises and that maybe is the subjective part of tuning, no real answer here.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

cvjoint said:


> How do you explain the in-car test I posted right above your post? Is that home audio theory to you?
> 
> I'm not phased by your degree or appeal to authority. Show me that you understand the pitfalls of using large drivers in in horizontal line arrays in nearfield. Then show me actual empirical work in-car that refutes these drawbacks in a car application. Nothing in science is truly "resolved' but I'm sure you know that being a professional engineer or whatnot.


Well, maybe I should have asked you what you meant exactly by line array of dual 7s playing up to 7khz....what the problem would be...tonal, impact, imaging?

And for the record CVJoint, nothing I could offer you empirical or otherwise would change your mind, especially with e-forum reputations at stake. 

I speak loudly for the hope that it will resonate with some and make them think about this theory vs. real world practice. 

When I used to be a forum junkie from '01 to '06, I had to assimilate knowledge on my own and come to my own conclusions but undeniably there was a general consensus on the forums about certain topics that became ingrained in me like it is for most people. I had to spend about 2 years unlearning a good share of the bad knowledge gained on forums because they were wrong or misguided. 

The one theme behind everything I post is that it's based on what I've heard or experienced in real life. If I haven't it might be me speaking on behalf of my mentor who taught me this stuff. Never will you hear me say "this can't work because of _________". If I haven't heard it, I won't comment on it. On paper I want to say that the Phass 4" paper cone full range driver would be absolutely amazing....my gut really feels that way, but I just can't say it until I hear it. 

I respect the theories so long as they are correct. IMO if certain accepted "truths" are disproven time and time again, I'm just not going to acknowledge them as truths. For example:

1) You probably would think it's impossible for an 8" or 10" home driver to have a frequency response of 40-10,000 hz (dynamic driver, not full range) or that it would "beam" above certain frequencies. Yet I've listened to a few speakers that sounded just fine that fit the bill. I'm sure you could write me a manuscript on beaming, and would never wish to take my word for it.

2) I've heard numerous low wattage amps that blow away high wattage amps (both confirmed to deliver their rated power). But a watt is a watt right?? I'm sure there's a bible on that somewhere. 

3) My friend had a very knowledge audio engineer/client come in, borrow two amplifiers and perform all sorts of measurements. The one amp that sounded noticeably better (e.g. more enjoyable) had worse measurements. 

4) I heard what a $200k amp can do to a $200 speaker. After that I was convinced it could cure world hunger (and anyone with functioning hearing would say the same). Still 90% of the audio community see amps as a distant #2 at best.

5) Everyone says active is better than passive in a car, hands down no debate...you go active you automatically are better than if you went passive. Yet I've heard more good passive installs than active installs (even installs with lots and lots of hours in tuning). Doesn't mean passive is better, but makes you wonder if active is worth it...EVERY SINGLE TIME?

There's so many examples, where do I stop? Dual woofers in a door should not be (and is not) a bad idea. 

The one thing that bothers me the most about the car audio community is this obsession with making things so complicated that you need a PhD in Electrical Engineering to have anything nice.

A car cannot sound good unless it meets a 3000 point checklist, has DSP, left/right EQ, etc.  Then I turn to another guy who does everything so simply and it sounds so great.

I have a knee jerk reaction to being upset when I see this behavior....it's hard to not be annoyed, lol. 



SSSnake said:


> From one engineer to another, I understand and appreciate practical experience. However, I cannot agree that this hobby is as much art as it is science (unless you are talking about psychoacoustics aspects of audio - which it appears you are not). Just beacuse the average hobbyist (myself included) doesn't have the time or expertise to fully understand and model the speakers interaction with the automotive environment does NOT mean that the laws of physics break down once you sit down in the drivers seat (sometimes I wish they did). THIS IS ALL SCIENCE. Just because the average schmo does not understand or have the tools to properly apply the science in this complex environment does not mean the science has failed to explain the situation. It means we as hobbyist have failed to apply the scientific theories appropriately (more on this later).
> 
> I realize I will get the typical non-technical backlash from this post. Go ahead and swing away! The thing that bothers me so much is that if you are an engineer how you could post the previous comments. Remember that once upon a time people believed the world was flat. They lacked the knowledge/understanding to believe anything else.
> 
> We are actually at a point where we have the tools (e.g. measurement equipment, processing power) to properly address the problems that have haunted car audio for years and you want to throw in the towel and claim all of this is black magic... Well, I will take another path. One that is guided by knowledge, experimentation, and a passion for this hobby. You are most certainly free to choose your own.


Like I mentioned to CV, I'm not sure what we are referring to here. If it's a general comment that they won't sound good then I will just not buy that. If it's an imaging thing, well that might be true....but IMO probably not the case, and probably an overrated concern. 

It's like saying it would be impossible for an average looking guy who wasn't rich and famous to date a sexy chick. Absolutely cannot happen under any circumstances.......lol.

There is some art to this sound game, I feel that way 100%. I'm an EE but I don't proclaim to have the answers and quite honestly I don't have the desire to study it to the level some guys do because it's too much work and there are no real rewards. I do dig it on a technical level, but I won't ingrain it to the level other guys do.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

FG79 said:


> A simple formula for lots of midbass and midrange punch is to maximize your performance from 80-3000 hz. A 6.5" playing this range will do lots for you....two will be even better. Even if you disagreed that 6.5" is more suitable than 8" try fitting dual 8s.
> Dual woofers just rock. You get the benefit of the smaller driver, but now you have more cone area than an 8" or a 10", plus the benefits of two motors instead of one. Pair them with horns and you're unbeatable in the impact department.





cvjoint said:


> Theory helps thin down the list of ideas to ones that could work. The only time you should be installing large drivers in a horizontal array is if you drive a carpet car and lay on your back. Even then there are things like comb filtering that should kill the potential of dual 7s up to 3,000hz.


 I remember seeing dual mids in cars during my early years into car audio and I never understood the theory behind it. I knew that there were gains but I knew there were negative effects as well.

Fast forward to today....Now that I know a little more about it....I still wonder about the use of dual mid drivers. I know companies do it all the time in their show cars for "the look" and to make them louder. However, companies like JL Audio tend to try and build good sounding Demo vehicles. I always wanted to hear more about their theories on the non standard use of dual drivers in several of their cars as well as the use of the non standard use of dual centered tweeters on the dash (was discussed a little bit here)

2001 Volkswagen GTI

Would love to hear what is involved in tuning a system like this to get things to work. Manville???


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

FG79: Horizontal and vertical line arrays are completely different animals. Try looking up the following key words, there is a lot of work done already: CTC spacing, interaural time difference, interaural intensity difference, bessel array, array dispersion, comb filtering. You don't need a Ph.D. to know these things but if you know them well enough you are on your way to one. It sure is easier to sit your but on the seat and use your ears but getting intimate with the research in the field it is a lot more rewarding. There are no gurantees that acoustics is an easy venture. As a hobby I suppose everyone wants it to be easy and straightforward, and it can be depending on your goals. Throwing two 8" together and claiming it's fine because it sounds good to you and everyone has been wrong and inexperienced is a bit far fetched. If you really want to disprove the single driver application you need to know the theory first and tells us where we are wrong. Your personal listening session (and well everybodys) is anecdotal evidence when there is so much good research out there.

As for 1-5, these things are way off topic so I wont delve. For 2-4 look up RC challenge. Someone has a better theory that is supported with some controlled testing. You can get me to believe anything as long as it is properly supported with a controlled study. Until you come up with a better one proving your beliefs I'll trust Richard.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

cvjoint said:


> Here is a sub that extends out to 2,000hz in black. That is a test outside of the car. The red plot is the same sub in a 2002 Honda Accord. Note that because of the absorbtion of the seats and other things in the way the sub is -12db at 100hz. This is going to be hell to match well with a midbass going only as low as 100hz.
> 
> This is just one reason why you may want to cross low, see here how 63hz would be a lot easier to implement. At 100hz you would have to boost the output from 63hz up A LOT. If your head unit does not permit it, maybe it doesn't have indpendent EQ per speaker like the P99 (blows) than you can't bump the sub but rather the midbass and sub together bringing non linear distortion to very high levels. This is why I cross the same AE drivers you have as low as 63hz. There are other reasons as well.


Thanks for the chart. I see your point but who knows how it would look in my car.

If I had a huge dip in the 80-100hz region, the MS8 hides it. The way I think of it is even if you have to boost in that region to get the 15s to play flat, they're still going to have no visible excursion at any sane SPL vs a 6.5 having to struggle.

I haven't RTA'd my car so I can't comment on what it's really doing. The only thing I can say is the 80-100hz region is more effortless and overall better sounding being played from the 15s. I really need to buy some basic tools for this hobby.

I've experimented with everything from 50hz to 150hz and I really like 100hz 90% of the time. The only real issue I have is that on the days I feel like cranking the sub level it doesn't sound as good when you're cranking 100hz too but for loud but balanced SQ listening it's great. 

Lately I've been playing the iPod through the headphones and immediately plugging it into the car on the same song I just listened to. Going back and forth my biggest issue seems to be the snare. I started trying to eq more snare into the system and to my surprise it's up around 1,000hz. I would have guessed 200hz lol. Hopefully when I get the Esotar 430 mid it will help in that department.

I did want to say that I'm enjoying this discussion. I'm still very new at this and learning a lot with each post. Even if I don't agree with everything, it makes me think.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

BuickGN said:


> Thanks for the chart. I see your point but who knows how it would look in my car.
> 
> If I had a huge dip in the 80-100hz region, the MS8 hides it. The way I think of it is even if you have to boost in that region to get the 15s to play flat, they're still going to have no visible excursion at any sane SPL vs a 6.5 having to struggle.
> 
> ...


I'm sure you've seen this or have it bookmarked but I'm just gonna post it again: Interactive Frequency Chart - Independent Recording Network 

My system sounds better now with extensive use of this site  

Kelvin


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

BuickGN said:


> Thanks for the chart. I see your point but who knows how it would look in my car.
> 
> If I had a huge dip in the 80-100hz region, the MS8 hides it. The way I think of it is even if you have to boost in that region to get the 15s to play flat, they're still going to have no visible excursion at any sane SPL vs a 6.5 having to struggle.
> 
> ...



I have a gain type bass boost and indeed it does sound better when the sub is crossed low at 63hz. I can do more boosting without getting in the 100hz region that way where it's less pleasing to boost. I call it my "subjectivity knob". At min the entire FR is fairly flat but depending on the music type a little boosting down low raises the subjectivity level as I add linear distortion theoretically. It's also very useful for top down driving when my transfer function changes. 

If you come to one of the So. Cal. meets I can throw the Seas sub in your car that way you know for sure what's going on in your application. It's really painless since it's all ran from my car, you don't even have to have the keys in the ignition.  Maybe I should try to test the most common cars first, more useful that way. 

Also note even my car in the graph has a dip in that area as well. The test sub was on the seat next to me because I have an IB setup which makes it even more interesting. I bet a lot of that dip is due to the distance between the driver and passenger door, or the car width. The rest is absorption and beaming. If that's true nearly all cars will have a dip of different magnitudes with a slight shift at the min point, 70hz to 80hz or so.


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## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

I have modeled many 10's for a door and I have found 2 drivers that model well. The first is the Morel CAW938, I have used this driver and it works well. The second is this driver.

Seas Prestige A26RE4 (H1411) 10" Paper Cone: Madisound Speaker Store

You can get low 40's with no problem. As many say implementing them into a door is a task.


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## Viejo Y Lento (Aug 31, 2011)

I'm going to put a set of old Phoenix Gold Ti951s in the front doors of my Tahoe. Hope it sounds at least as good as the Ti6.5 set I had in my pickup.
I'm just building a SG (sounds good) system not a SQ competition system.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

8675309 said:


> I have modeled many 10's for a door and I have found 2 drivers that model well. The first is the Morel CAW938, I have used this driver and it works well. The second is this driver.
> 
> Seas Prestige A26RE4 (H1411) 10" Paper Cone: Madisound Speaker Store
> 
> You can get low 40's with no problem. As many say implementing them into a door is a task.


What size enclosure do you usually use to model a leaky door as an enclosure? 

Thanks, 
Kelvin


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## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

Plenty of mat along with plate metal, birch, and oil based clay can seal the door up fairly well. Don’t get me wrong the door will leak but it’s not like you put a driver in 1 cube and cut a 4 inch hole in the bottom of the enclosure. I typically find a driver that model well in 1.8 to 3 cubes with very little change in response between 1.8 and 3 cube. What I have found is that if they model well in this, they typically sound good in a door. Note I said typically sound good in a door. 

In this car I had very little leakage in the door cavity. But the door was prepped properly 

SQ 2007 Nissan Maxima - Daily Drivers - Car Audio and Electronics

Thanks
AH



subwoofery said:


> What size enclosure do you usually use to model a leaky door as an enclosure?
> 
> Thanks,
> Kelvin


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

8675309 said:


> Plenty of mat along with plate metal, birch, and oil based clay can seal the door up fairly well. Don’t get me wrong the door will leak but it’s not like you put a driver in 1 cube and cut a 4 inch hole in the bottom of the enclosure. I typically find a driver that model well in 1.8 to 3 cubes with very little change in response between 1.8 and 3 cube. What I have found is that if they model well in this, they typically sound good in a door. Note I said typically sound good in a door.
> 
> In this car I had very little leakage in the door cavity. But the door was prepped properly
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info... I just needed to know what size you're using to know approximately how low I could go without risking damage due to over-excursion (even with a HP filter)... 

Kelvin


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## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

I think when I Modeled the SEAS driver I modeled it with 80 watts. I know the Morel CAW938 can handle 100 watts without over excursion in a door if setup properly. 

One thing I have found when using larger drivers in the door is you have to spend allot of time on the door panel itself. I ended up packing clay as thick as 3 inches on the white car with as much as 6 layers of 80mil mat. If I could have got away in my class I would have built door panels. If door panels were built you could resolve allot of the issue.

I always subsonic or band passes the front woofers in my install. Oddly one thing I have found that works well is subsonic or bandpass @ 40-50 Hz 24db and boosts the 50 Hz range. It gives a nice attack and still plays lower than 50 Hz without over excursion. Drivers I have done this with are the FOCAL 165KRX3 bass driver, Morel CAW938, and Focal 13KS sub. I am sure it would work with others.
I am strictly basing this off of what I have tried and note that it may not work for others. As far as using a larger driver as a midbass/woofer to a tweeter I tried this with the CAW938 and it just did not do the job. I am sure if I would have paired the CAW938 with a wideband driver it would have worked better. 




subwoofery said:


> Thanks for the info... I just needed to know what size you're using to know approximately how low I could go without risking damage due to over-excursion (even with a HP filter)...
> 
> Kelvin


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

8675309 said:


> I think when I Modeled the SEAS driver I modeled it with 80 watts. I know the Morel CAW938 can handle 100 watts without over excursion in a door if setup properly.
> 
> One thing I have found when using larger drivers in the door is you have to spend allot of time on the door panel itself. I ended up packing clay as thick as 3 inches on the white car with as much as 6 layers of 80mil mat. If I could have got away in my class I would have built door panels. If door panels were built you could resolve allot of the issue.
> 
> ...


Oki... Done  

I found my next driver: 6ND430 - LF Neodymium Driver 

I needed a speaker that was shallower yet still able to keep up with my horns...  

Gonna replace my X65 - those served me well for 2 years 

Kelvin


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## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

Funny I was just looking at that driver last night. 




subwoofery said:


> Oki... Done
> 
> I found my next driver: 6ND430 - LF Neodymium Driver
> 
> ...


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## Kpg2713 (Feb 10, 2008)

8675309 said:


> I think when I Modeled the SEAS driver I modeled it with 80 watts. I know the Morel CAW938 can handle 100 watts without over excursion in a door if setup properly.
> 
> One thing I have found when using larger drivers in the door is you have to spend allot of time on the door panel itself. I ended up packing clay as thick as 3 inches on the white car with as much as 6 layers of 80mil mat. If I could have got away in my class I would have built door panels. If door panels were built you could resolve allot of the issue.
> 
> ...


I always bandpass as well, and using this exact method worked wonders on the 8" usher 8137's I ran in my civic. I however, did not need more than 2 layers of damping material and really only used clay around the speaker itself. Closed cell foam took care of any rattle issues I had between the panel and door itself.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

8675309 said:


> Funny I was just looking at that driver last night.


I did not just looked at it... I ordered it  

Kelvin


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

8675309 said:


> I have modeled many 10's for a door and I have found 2 drivers that model well. The first is the Morel CAW938, I have used this driver and it works well. The second is this driver.
> 
> Seas Prestige A26RE4 (H1411) 10" Paper Cone: Madisound Speaker Store
> 
> You can get low 40's with no problem. As many say implementing them into a door is a task.


Imo go for the Excels, 9mm more depth I think but they are lower distortion. I used the 10" Magnesiums, and a 10" Prestige paper in my doors before.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

FG79 said:


> Ok, you stick to what you think is the way (on paper) and I'll stick to my memories of what I've heard and enjoyed. ;-)
> 
> Theory would also suggest that analog tape, vinyl, tube amps are obsolete junk and that an amp with more distortion than another can't possibly sound better, but I've discovered the opposite with all of these things.
> 
> ...


Here's a 'mental exercise' that can help explain why it sounds the way that it does.

Imagine that you put a speaker in the door of your car. The sound emanating from that speaker will hit the center console about two milliseconds after you hit 'play' on your CD.

Does that make sense?

It's like a second loudspeaker, playing the left signal, and located in the center of the car.

As you can imagine, that's going to narrow your stage, just as it would if the speaker was 'real' and not a reflection.

Now put that same speaker on the floor, and aim it at the ceiling.

You are going to get a reflection, *But the reflection will be above your head.*

I hope I'm explaining myself properly!

*So the speaker on the floor reflects on the ceiling, and drags the soundstage UP*

The speaker in the door reflects on the center console, and drags the soundstage TOWARDS THE CENTER.

So one location RAISES the stage, and the other one NARROWS the stage.

The key to all of this, as usual, is directivity. And large speakers are very directional. In fact, *the larger that a speaker is, the narrow and more directional it is.*

This is a bit counterintuitive, since some might think that a big speaker would have a wide beam, and vice versa. But this is not the case. Big speakers are directional, and small speakers are not.

You can do some bizarre tricks with this stuff, if you're in the mood to screw around with imaging tricks. Just remember that the reflection will drag the stage one way or the other. The great thing about reflected energy off the roof is that it drags the image UP.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

One's inability to understand the rules does not mean they don't exist. 

Patrick, in order to avoid further confusion, it's important to make it clear that ALL speakers have a wide dispersion at frequencies that have long wavelengths compared to the diameter of the driver and the dispersion narrows as frequency is increased. A big woofer has wide dispersion at low frequencies and so does a tweeter. A big woofer has narrow dispersion at high frequencies and so does a tweeter. The difference is the frequency at which the dispersion BEGINS to narrow. The trick is to know how to exploit this condition to get what you want.


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

The more I log on to this site, the more I realize I'm barely hanging onto the shoulders of Giants...


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## grantwb1 (Apr 4, 2010)

I often feel as if I have brought a pack of crayons and coloring book to an advanced physics class reading these types of threads. Its a square off at Knights of the Sound Table.  Thank you gents!!


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Same here. Every time I think I "get it" I'm shot right back down just to realize how little I know. I'm thankful for the crowd we have here. Just a year ago I thought large subs were slow and sloppy and my Infinties were awesome.


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## Ultimateherts (Nov 13, 2006)

I found a Vibe Audio 10" at Sonic's and it can play up to 2k!!!


VIBE Audio BDPRO10W-V1 (BDPRO10WV1) 10" Pro Car Audio Woofer


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## S3T (Sep 21, 2008)

Yeah, even 15" can play up to 8-16khz, *on axis*.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

S3T said:


> Yeah, even 15" can play up to 8-16khz, *on axis*.


Yep, I've done that before for fun. Mine will play female vocals surprisingly well.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

i would think floor mounted midbasses reduce the stage width. The band they would reproduce is more importamt for width cues than height cues. Larger drivers that have the desired dispersion also require lower cross points further negating the height advantages. Witty concept though. James you should raise your cross point on your flloor mounted midbasses at the next meet so we can experience this beast.


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## rawdawg (Apr 27, 2007)

I just might have to since I just scored some 2118's. As far as stage width is concerned, I still have the Lycan Circular Spread trick in my back pocket.


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## pickup1 (May 6, 2008)

how bout 4 10's in the doors!
Crescendo Scion tC Door Build - Car Audio Classifieds


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## grantwb1 (Apr 4, 2010)

24 speakers for the front stage? I bet that will be easy to tune...


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

A proper 3 way can easily exceed the OSHA recommended SPL for a few minutes (a song). With multiple drivers like that you are just ruining the sound quality for SPL that you should never be subject to. **** just don't make sense to me.


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## S3T (Sep 21, 2008)

10s in doors. won't let me go.

Okay, i've got an idea. Really cool idea - how to mount the 10s in the doors, easily, quickly, and ugly?
Mount 'em out-of-the-door.
Reverse mounting is all you need. No depth issues, no pods, nada, just a plain ol' mdf baffle/ring, a couple of bolts and a speaker.

Moreover, no moisture issues! (except passenger ones ). 

Could have a good looks, check out these guys:
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital pro 12fh500-1.htm


12s? who said 12s? 


That's kinda sick.


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## cobra93 (Dec 22, 2009)

Did I hear you say 15's? oke:
I'm pretty sure you did.


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## S3T (Sep 21, 2008)

15s are ok, as long as you have a large door volume. Otherwise it will need a "variovent" port to tame the peaky resonance of tiny enclosure. Actually, the doors are leaky, so this could work even better...

I need to check local PA junkyards for 15s.
My friend has a pair of oldschool JBL's 15" GTIs, but their magnet is too heavy for the doors. Unless you use some "door feets", like on the bikes.


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## cobra93 (Dec 22, 2009)

S3T said:


> 15s are ok, as long as you have a large door volume. Otherwise it will need a "variovent" port to tame the peaky resonance of tiny enclosure. Actually, the doors are leaky, so this could work even better...
> 
> I need to check local PA junkyards for 15s.
> My friend has a pair of oldschool JBL's 15" GTIs, but their magnet is too heavy for the doors. Unless you use some "door feets", like on the bikes.


O.K.. So 18's it is!

No problem, just use wheels with swivels at the bottom of the door training wheels.

I say this jokingly but, if they would be worth the effort, I could see giving it some thought.


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## S3T (Sep 21, 2008)

18s? No problem at all! The door "enclosure" finally will become freeair, as the outer skin will be ripped off by first stroke of 18.
How about 18' strokers in the front doors? 


I'm leaning towards a pair of 10s for myself, as i already have a pair of these - will make a nice 4ohm load at 97db efficiency if used in pairs. 200w per driver will make it to the 120s per side, 123db mixed power in halfspace. 
Midbass. Power. Rockz.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

S3T said:


> 18s? No problem at all! The door "enclosure" finally will become freeair, as the outer skin will be ripped off by first stroke of 18.
> How about 18' strokers in the front doors?
> 
> 
> ...


couple of things:

*is it stroke that ripps up door panels? What if we were to compare a 3" XBL driver with a 10" pro audio midrange. If the pro audio midrange has less excursion do you think it would rattle the door less?

*97db efficiency where? How well does it do at midbass frequencies?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

cvjoint said:


> A proper 3 way can easily exceed the OSHA recommended SPL for a few minutes (a song). With multiple drivers like that you are just ruining the sound quality for SPL that you should never be subject to. **** just don't make sense to me.


Agreed.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I thought I would bring this up from the dead. Just installed 10s in my doors.... The reason I'm bringing it up is several times it's been stated that the 10s would have much worse rattling than the 6.5s they replaced and that makes sense to me. But for some reason I've had just the opposite experience. Somehow at the same volume, I have absolutely no door rattles with the 10s where the 6.5s would hopelessly rattle the doors. I've taken the highpass down from 70 to 63hz and still less rattling. I've pushed them to a higher output than the 6.5s were capable of and same results. 

One difference to note, the 6.5s had a 3/4" MDF baffle between them and the doors. The 10s are mounted straight to the sheet metal with the supplied rubber gasket between.


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## adrenalinejunkie (Oct 17, 2010)

BuickGN said:


> I thought I would bring this up from the dead. Just installed 10s in my doors.... The reason I'm bringing it up is several times it's been stated that the 10s would have much worse rattling than the 6.5s they replaced and that makes sense to me. But for some reason I've had just the opposite experience. Somehow at the same volume, I have absolutely no door rattles with the 10s where the 6.5s would hopelessly rattle the doors. I've taken the highpass down from 70 to 63hz and still less rattling. I've pushed them to a higher output than the 6.5s were capable of and same results.
> 
> One difference to note, the 6.5s had a 3/4" MDF baffle between them and the doors. The 10s are mounted straight to the sheet metal with the supplied rubber gasket between.



You probably cut up what was causing the rattle.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Holy crap I been meaning to get back here but amazingly busy this summer. Anyway I think there are other factors such as the additional mass of the larger driver/its motor if the driver itself is causing the panel to vibrate. A larger driver installed could actually make a door stronger the way I see it, as the basket is going to be stiffer than the flat door metal. While the cone would have more mass, you would not need as much xmax to achieve the same output with a 10 as you had with a 6.5. I really want to go 10s but this summer has gone crazy on me so far or I'd have them in there. Still trying to get high speed to work on the AC blower and its hot here, can't even find where I hid my other sub amp so I can swap it back in that is pretty bad.


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## EricP72 (Mar 23, 2008)

Curious as to what 10" drivers u plan to use. And just how far up do u plan to x-over the 10" to mate with ur mid or fullrange? And would u use a shallow or step slope?


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

BuickGN said:


> I thought I would bring this up from the dead. Just installed 10s in my doors.... The reason I'm bringing it up is several times it's been stated that the 10s would have much worse rattling than the 6.5s they replaced and that makes sense to me. But for some reason I've had just the opposite experience. Somehow at the same volume, I have absolutely no door rattles with the 10s where the 6.5s would hopelessly rattle the doors. I've taken the highpass down from 70 to 63hz and still less rattling. I've pushed them to a higher output than the 6.5s were capable of and same results.
> 
> One difference to note, the 6.5s had a 3/4" MDF baffle between them and the doors. The 10s are mounted straight to the sheet metal with the supplied rubber gasket between.


WOW!!!! 10's in the doors:2thumbsup::rockon:


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

manish said:


> Curious as to what 10" drivers u plan to use. And just how far up do u plan to x-over the 10" to mate with ur mid or fullrange? And would u use a shallow or step slope?


I'm not sure if you're talking to me or not but I'll answer.

I have mine running 63-320hz at a 24db slope. I think the frequency and slope would have many other deciding factors but the additional displacement allows you more options. According to WinISD, I can safely put all 150w to these with a 35hz highpass. My mids play down to 200hz nicely so I have that option as well.

Mine is a Dyn MW182. While it's called a 10", it's a very small 10". The outer diameter measures only 9.5". Cone area is only 235cm^2 but I *think* Dyn does not count half of the surround roll in the cone area as is the standard but don't hold me to that. Xmax is 4.5mm one way and xmech is 14mm one way. Depth is 3" and the basket is very compact. I'm able to flush mount it with no mods other than cutting out the hole.


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## EricP72 (Mar 23, 2008)

Actually I meant u and sqshoestring. Im running the peerless 3" as a full range. No tweeter. im running a pair of sls 8". I loved running them down to 63hz! Which allows the subs to be xover even lower. But I want more out put as my sls gets muddy up top unless I raise my xover points to say 80hz. And when I say muddy its me nick picking. Im toying with a 10" idea and those dynaseem interesting. Hows the blend with ur mids working out?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

They blend very well but since I have an MS8 I have no idea what's going on behind the scenes. Overall thoroughly happy and I was already extremely happy with the 6.5s that were in there. To tell you the truth I was concerned it was going to be a step back but now with several days' of listening I feel a lot better about it.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

BuickGN said:


> .... The reason I'm bringing it up is several times it's been stated that the 10s would have much worse rattling than the 6.5s they replaced and that makes sense to me. But for some reason I've had just the opposite experience. Somehow at the same volume, I have absolutely no door rattles with the 10s where the 6.5s would hopelessly rattle the doors. I've taken the highpass down from 70 to 63hz and still less rattling. I've pushed them to a higher output than the 6.5s were capable of and same results.


Less excursion for same output + (larger mounting area + larger speaker basket = more bracing of surrounding metal) = less rattles.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

That must be true. Put the door panels back on finally and still fewer rattles. The 6.5s could make the side view mirrors nearly useless. The 10s have the potential to do that but it takes much more SPL before it happens. Right now at a sane but loud level, my mirrors are completely usable, I don't even notice them vibrating unless I stare and look for it.

One more thing, I'll go and look up the weights right now but by hand, the 10s feel very close in weight to the 6.5s I pulled out. So maybe it's not the mass of the speaker that helps to damp vibrations. I have double the cone area and Mms only went up by less than 50%. I agree that the larger frame of the speaker is a lot stronger than the door sheet metal so it helps to strengthen it. The part that doesn't make a whole lot of sense yet is less door panel vibrations. This area is a lot closer but I can no doubt still play the 10s louder before rattles set in. The nice thing is the rattle threshold has moved past any normal listening level to the "showing off" level so that's fine by me.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Interesting outcome for sure  

Kelvin


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Another thing I thought about in one of your other posts when you were considering the 10s, is the area in front of the cone that is pressurized. I am not sure if this is true, but I thought about it when there was a discussion about tactile ques. A smaller driver may give more tactile ques due to the fact that the cone pressurizes a smaller area directly in front of the cone. So for a given SPL, it seems likely that a smaller driver will have far greater pressure directly in front of the cone than a larger driver. Again, I may not be thinking about this correctly and actual math may prove differently, but my intuition of the physics tells me this is the case. I don't know how this plays into the vibrations of the door panels, but it could be related.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I was thinking of running a set of 4" comps I have that I liked in a previous install. Enclosing the 4" should not be bad to do then run 10s. I was hoping to xover at 200 or so and down to 40-50 to pick up to my IB 15s. It needs to get loud but likely not the same loud a lot of people here use lol. Right now my 150x4 kappa amp has plenty of power for anything I need and use about 500rms on the IB 15s, as a loose reference. I don't know how well the 4" will run to 200, I like my mids to go wide band as they can and this comp set has really small tweeters. I am tempted to try some flat subs since the band is fairly narrow, they have a FR pretty flat to 50 unlike most other MB drivers used. This car does not seem to have much cabin gain, boxes were lacking until I got the IB 15s in there now it has nice bottom and needs more MB.

Will be an install project in this car and no time right now. Almost 100F here now as well. Oh wait, thinking about this for more than a year lol. Even wondered what to put in for rears, yes I run rears in this car for various reasons. Liked the idea of 7x10s then I could say I have quad 10s and 15s...ha ha.....still say the 10s will sound good, and not pro 10s.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

sqshoestring said:


> I was thinking of running a set of 4" comps I have that I liked in a previous install. Enclosing the 4" should not be bad to do then run 10s. I was hoping to xover at 200 or so and down to 40-50 to pick up to my IB 15s. It needs to get loud but likely not the same loud a lot of people here use lol. Right now my 150x4 kappa amp has plenty of power for anything I need and use about 500rms on the IB 15s, as a loose reference. I don't know how well the 4" will run to 200, I like my mids to go wide band as they can and this comp set has really small tweeters. I am tempted to try some flat subs since the band is fairly narrow, they have a FR pretty flat to 50 unlike most other MB drivers used. This car does not seem to have much cabin gain, boxes were lacking until I got the IB 15s in there now it has nice bottom and needs more MB.
> 
> Will be an install project in this car and no time right now. Almost 100F here now as well. Oh wait, thinking about this for more than a year lol. Even wondered what to put in for rears, yes I run rears in this car for various reasons. Liked the idea of 7x10s then I could say I have quad 10s and 15s...ha ha.....still say the 10s will sound good, and not pro 10s.


Do it! I can't think of a single downside of 10s in a 3-way unless the installation makes it too difficult.


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## Woosey (Feb 2, 2011)

BuickGN said:


> That must be true. Put the door panels back on finally and still fewer rattles. The 6.5s could make the side view mirrors nearly useless. The 10s have the potential to do that but it takes much more SPL before it happens. Right now at a sane but loud level, my mirrors are completely usable, I don't even notice them vibrating unless I stare and look for it.
> 
> One more thing, I'll go and look up the weights right now but by hand, the 10s feel very close in weight to the 6.5s I pulled out. So maybe it's not the mass of the speaker that helps to damp vibrations. I have double the cone area and Mms only went up by less than 50%. I agree that the larger frame of the speaker is a lot stronger than the door sheet metal so it helps to strengthen it. The part that doesn't make a whole lot of sense yet is less door panel vibrations. This area is a lot closer but I can no doubt still play the 10s louder before rattles set in. The nice thing is the rattle threshold has moved past any normal listening level to the "showing off" level so that's fine by me.


Maybe with a smaller driver the air compresses more because of the smaller cone diameter? With the bigger cone the air in front of it is spread more evenly behind the panel? Just like ticking the panel with your fingertip or your whole hand...

My idea of this subject..


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Got one door completely finished with additional bracing and redoing some really crappy work I did years ago and apparently forgot about. Let's just say cardboard was used where metal or wood should have been used.

This is one of the single largest improvements I've made to the system. I can feel the midbass punch from drums in my legs from the passenger side midbass yet it doesn't seem out of place or too loud. Hotel California has a realism unlike never before. Drums would be the single largest improvement. Upfront bass is idiot proof. I don't think you could possibly not have upfront bass with a 10 in the door and a 63hz highpass. There's absolutely no disconnect from the subs to the midbass, it all seems to come from the front. If it wasn't for the sheer output, you would think the car was subless. They blend perfectly.

After experiencing this, I can never ask a 6.5", even a very high end 6.5" to do midbass duty again, assuming the install allows for something larger. It seems like adding a larger midbass is a natural benefit of a 3-way and very few take advantage of it. My eyes have been opened.


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## EricP72 (Mar 23, 2008)

Buickgn do u have any pics of ur door without the panel on showing the prep work? Im really considering going 10". But coming from a sls 8" I wonder how much of a improvement I will hear. I love the description u gave of ur initial impression. Thats exactly what I want. Im one of those guys who feel and like my subs sealed and only playing 60hz and down. set only loud enough to hear it or feel it when a musical passage calls for it. Basically disappearing until called for. I was toint with the idea of a fiberglassed sealed inclosure say about .1-.2 cubic ft for a alpine type r 8". But I like the idea of a 10" 2way ESP since im running a 3" full range.


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## analogrocker (Aug 1, 2009)

BuickGN said:


> Got one door completely finished with additional bracing and redoing some really crappy work I did years ago and apparently forgot about. Let's just say cardboard was used where metal or wood should have been used.
> 
> This is one of the single largest improvements I've made to the system. I can feel the midbass punch from drums in my legs from the passenger side midbass yet it doesn't seem out of place or too loud. Hotel California has a realism unlike never before. Drums would be the single largest improvement. Upfront bass is idiot proof. I don't think you could possibly not have upfront bass with a 10 in the door and a 63hz highpass. There's absolutely no disconnect from the subs to the midbass, it all seems to come from the front. If it wasn't for the sheer output, you would think the car was subless. They blend perfectly.
> 
> After experiencing this, I can never ask a 6.5", even a very high end 6.5" to do midbass duty again, assuming the install allows for something larger. It seems like adding a larger midbass is a natural benefit of a 3-way and very few take advantage of it. My eyes have been opened.


I envy you. I really wish I could fit 10s in my front doors. I have pro audio 12" midbasses in my rear quarter panels, but it's just not the same as having them up front. I don't know how Richard Clark, Harry Kimura and all the other rear midbass legends pulled it off. I have to admit that I haven't even begun to really tune my system because I am still a ways off from finishing my install, but from my quick listening time, I was very unhappy with how thin the bass sounds up front. I can certainly localize it to the rear and the low pass on the 12s is around 150 Hz, 4th order, with my front door mounted 8s high passed @ 150 Hz/24dB. It just does not sound right at all.

The only chance of me fitting 10s in my front doors is if I go with those pro Pyle 10s that TREETOP had in his Tahoe a few years back. And even then I am not sure if I would be able to put my door panels back on...


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

analogrocker said:


> I envy you. I really wish I could fit 10s in my front doors. I have pro audio 12" midbasses in my rear quarter panels, but it's just not the same as having them up front. I don't know how Richard Clark, Harry Kimura and all the other rear midbass legends pulled it off. I have to admit that I haven't even begun to really tune my system because I am still a ways off from finishing my install, but from my quick listening time, I was very unhappy with how thin the bass sounds up front. I can certainly localize it to the rear and the low pass on the 12s is around 150 Hz, 4th order, with my front door mounted 8s high passed @ 150 Hz/24dB. It just does not sound right at all.
> 
> The only chance of me fitting 10s in my front doors is if I go with those pro Pyle 10s that TREETOP had in his Tahoe a few years back. And even then I am not sure if I would be able to put my door panels back on...


I'm with you. I know some have had success with up front bass with a 120hz sub to midbass crossover point but I was never that successful. It was never bad and for the most part mostly up front but if I turned my head I could hear the subs and there always seemed to be a disconnect between the subs and midbass.

I call this up front bass for dummies. With the 63hz and lower highpass, I don't think you can not have up front bass. There's zero localization cues. My seatbacks no longer vibrate when I crank it up. The lower midbass region sounds full. 

With 8s, I would think yours could be crossed over lower. My Dyn 10s are closer to a really big 8 or a 9". WinISD shows I should be able to put full power (150w) to them with a 35hz highpass which is awesome. I don't plan on running them down there but I have to try it just for fun at least once.

The way I got the panels to fit was copying Kirk's ideas. Instead of using a MDF spacer, I mounted the speakers straight to the door with just a little deadener and the rubber gasket in between. With some trimming, it fits behind the door panel and on the outside looks completely stock. They're only 3" deep so the glass just barely clears them and the side impact beam clears with ease.

I have pictures, got to download them real quick.


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## d5sc (Aug 14, 2007)

BuickGN said:


> I'm with you. I know some have had success with up front bass with a 120hz sub to midbass crossover point but I was never that successful. It was never bad and for the most part mostly up front but if I turned my head I could hear the subs and there always seemed to be a disconnect between the subs and midbass.
> 
> I call this up front bass for dummies. With the 63hz and lower highpass, I don't think you can not have up front bass. There's zero localization cues. My seatbacks no longer vibrate when I crank it up. The lower midbass region sounds full.
> 
> ...


Very cool to see that you were able to squeeze the 10's into the doors with good results.

I was very tempted to install the AT 23's into the doors after seeing Kirk's install but decided to go with AT 18H's since it would not require any additional work.


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## m0sdef (Nov 16, 2010)

Man, I just got some morel 8"s to fit in my doors. I wish I could get some 10's to fit in there.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

Woosey said:


> Maybe with a smaller driver the air compresses more because of the smaller cone diameter? With the bigger cone the air in front of it is spread more evenly behind the panel? Just like ticking the panel with your fingertip or your whole hand...
> 
> My idea of this subject..


Pretty much my thought process...


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## Dzaazter (Apr 28, 2011)

I just added some Morel 9"s to my front doors. Fit perfectly in my G35...just had to add a 3/4 baffle and it dropped right in. I have been running subless for a couple of weeks. Thought I would've installed a sub by now but it sounds so good that I can wait and not rush to get my sub in. And you're right BuickGN, hotel california live sounds unbelievable in my car. Sounds like I'm sitting in the front row of the actual concert. They blend in well and I just tinkered with the crossover to make it blend. Thought there was gonna be some gap or odd sound but it sounds just right. I have mines passed at 60hz and it does dig deep when it has to, then lays back again. Never sounds too boomy or overpowering.


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## theoldguy (Nov 17, 2009)

Ive been running 10"s in my front doors and subless for several years now. Sometimes I miss a more powerfull low end, but its nothing to cry about. I love having 10"s in the doors.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Someone had to post on here just to remind me how I want 10s in my doors lol. Projects abound these days and time is short, not a good combo. I can't even find where I hid my favorite sub amp, but maybe I will buy some 10s soon and then I'll have to try to install them right? LOL.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

sqshoestring said:


> Someone had to post on here just to remind me how I want 10s in my doors lol. Projects abound these days and time is short, not a good combo. I can't even find where I hid my favorite sub amp, but maybe I will buy some 10s soon and then I'll have to try to install them right? LOL.



Yeah, you've been saying this for a while now.  Still looking at those shallow Tang Bands?


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

fish said:


> Yeah, you've been saying this for a while now.  Still looking at those shallow Tang Bands?


Lol, I moved on to some cheap shallow sub 10s because my pyle subs work so well, and its low power, and I only have about 3". They should work well enough. Mostly I'm worried about how much time it will take to mount the 4s in some kind of enclosure there, and the 10 next to or partially behind it. I think the 10s will go right in. No room for kicks in this car. I had thought of 3s under the dash but just don't trust that idea enough to invest in it. I have the 4s and like the sound so might as well use them. If I have to mount them to the door panel that will take even longer to beef that thing up. Have to put a tps and whatever on the car right now its not running quite right. Cracked it trying to adjust it and now the engine light is on lol. Its been brutal hot here this summer, put the hurt to those "extra" projects like car sound.


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## pickup1 (May 6, 2008)




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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I'm under the impression that using 10s in the doors as part of a 3-way is a lot like IB. It levels the playing field a bit between expensive and cheaper drivers. Just moving a lot of air is half of the battle. I chose the Dyn drivers because they were actually perfect in regards to Fs, Qts, and have a super shallow 3" mounting depth. They actually seem to be a good mix between a sub and a midbass. Otherwise I wouldn't mind going cheaper.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I'll have to think about this now, got a couple sensors on the car yesterday and its running way better....found my other sub amp and swapped that in this morning and re-wired my subs a little better. I'll dig through my winISD some of the shallow 10s modeled better than others...ok, the ones I could find specs for lol. There is no doubt; if I turn off my subs and dial up the ~80hz on the EQ it sounds better...primarily frequencies my subs do not or should not be playing. I have them set at 63Hz/12dB LP right now but will have to play with it for a bit since I changed the amp.


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## dimibo (Nov 24, 2011)

Here is my 9" in door. Complete Morel Supremo system.
Front door:








Rear door:


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## ansuser (Dec 18, 2011)

dimibo said:


> Here is my 9" in door. Complete Morel Supremo system.
> Front door:
> View attachment 38138
> 
> ...


m-m-m, Golf.

This is mine:


















not finished yet


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## dimibo (Nov 24, 2011)

ansuser said:


> m-m-m, Golf.
> 
> This is mine:
> ...................
> not finished yet


Skoda Superb Combi


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## ansuser (Dec 18, 2011)

dimibo said:


> Skoda Superb Combi


Well, door internals look pretty much like mkV golf/jetta, so it is easy to take a wrong guess. 
Do you have a sub in it as well?


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

What's your guys' opinions on the Morel 9's?


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

fish said:


> What's your guys' opinions on the Morel 9's?


Which ones? I have been looking at the MW265-4, MW266-4, and CAW938. Would like to hear some thoughts from users myself.


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## Wy2quiet (Jun 29, 2010)

How are you guys running 2 way front ends? (or are some of you?)

I kind of want to try 8's in the doors but it is hard to find a tweeter that will have the output of 8's and play down to the 8's beaming freq.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

beaming schmeaming! 

if the 8" is off axis enough, beaming shouldnt be a big deal.

but, you can go with HLCDs and get well below beaming.


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## ansuser (Dec 18, 2011)

fish said:


> What's your guys' opinions on the Morel 9's?


I've got ADMW-9 set and have yet to listen to them .
But common opinion in Russia on Morels is that they are 'slow' and 'laid back'

First system launch is planned in 2 weeks (can work on my install only on weekends ).


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Which ones? I have been looking at the MW265-4, MW266-4, and CAW938. Would like to hear some thoughts from users myself.


Any really... just trying to get an idea what they're capable of. I've been looking at the MW-1075.

There is a review from 8675439 (I think that's the right #) on the CAW938. From what I remember he liked their performance, but one or two drivers crapped out on him.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Wy2quiet said:


> How are you guys running 2 way front ends? (or are some of you?)
> 
> I kind of want to try 8's in the doors but it is hard to find a tweeter that will have the output of 8's and play down to the 8's beaming freq.


A common 2-way setup with 8's is with a 3" or 4" widebander.


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## dimibo (Nov 24, 2011)

ansuser said:


> Well, door internals look pretty much like mkV golf/jetta, so it is easy to take a wrong guess.
> Do you have a sub in it as well?


No, I don't need it.
These ones plays enough low and loud.

I cab say for Morel Supremo SW9 - they really need power, to see and to use their potential, that's why i am running them on Audison TH Quattro, very good quality and enough power to feed the Morels.
Supremo Piccolo is one of the best tweeters I ever heard. I am crossing them at 1800Hz.


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## Wy2quiet (Jun 29, 2010)

fish said:


> A common 2-way setup with 8's is with a 3" or 4" widebander.


I was going to try HLCD's but my dash just will not fit them as it is way too low and 2 vastly different heights.

See IMO a 3" Widebander just won't be loud enough without distortion to keep up with an 8". Tell me I am wrong though, I really don't know. I have seen the sensitivity ratings of some of the Fullrange drivers and they are terrible. I don't see how I am going to reach 110db or so in a car environment with those speakers and an 8".


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Wy2quiet said:


> I was going to try HLCD's but my dash just will not fit them as it is way too low and 2 vastly different heights.
> 
> See IMO a 3" Widebander just won't be loud enough without distortion to keep up with an 8". Tell me I am wrong though, I really don't know. I have seen the sensitivity ratings of some of the Fullrange drivers and they are terrible. I don't see how I am going to reach 110db or so in a car environment with those speakers and an 8".


My guess is it would partially depend on the highpass. My 3.5" midrange playing 320-6000hz has no issues keeping up with my 10s in the doors. The sensitivity is around 89db I think. I don't know how that compares to the widebanders in question.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Wy2quiet said:


> I was going to try HLCD's but my dash just will not fit them as it is way too low and 2 vastly different heights.
> 
> See IMO a 3" Widebander just won't be loud enough without distortion to keep up with an 8". Tell me I am wrong though, I really don't know. I have seen the sensitivity ratings of some of the Fullrange drivers and they are terrible. I don't see how I am going to reach 110db or so in a car environment with those speakers and an 8".


Not sure where you would plan on mounting a 3", but in the pillars on-axis they can reach a nice volume level (don't know db levels though).


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## Wy2quiet (Jun 29, 2010)

Well I made an executive decision for now and bought some Scanspeak 18W/4434G's to replace the CXS64 mids. I am just a little worried about the beaming and getting terrible off axis response for an 8 or 10 on the drivers side.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

If mated with a tweeter, yeah, you can run into that problem. Nice choice!


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## Woosey (Feb 2, 2011)

Wy2quiet said:


> Well I made an executive decision for now and bought some Scanspeak 18W/4434G's to replace the CXS64 mids. I am just a little worried about the beaming and getting terrible off axis response for an 8 or 10 on the drivers side.


Time for a fast system or 3 way imo


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## Wy2quiet (Jun 29, 2010)

Woosey said:


> Time for a fast system or 3 way imo


What would fast mean? 3 Way is doable from an amp and electronic standpoint as I have 4 way active capability...but only 2 way mounting at this point.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

pickup1 said:


>


Which Midbass are those? Are the the Volvo Dyns or something else (because they don't seem to be MW180/182's)?


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## Woosey (Feb 2, 2011)

Wy2quiet said:


> What would fast mean? 3 Way is doable from an amp and electronic standpoint as I have 4 way active capability...but only 2 way mounting at this point.


Fullrange and subwoofer technology aka widebander + sub for low extention


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Niebur3 said:


> Which Midbass are those? Are the the Volvo Dyns or something else (because they don't seem to be MW180/182's)?


Ya, they are the volvo variants, I sold them to him.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Got it, thought they looked slightly different.


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## Kpg2713 (Feb 10, 2008)

Wy2quiet said:


> I was going to try HLCD's but my dash just will not fit them as it is way too low and 2 vastly different heights.
> 
> See IMO a 3" Widebander just won't be loud enough without distortion to keep up with an 8". Tell me I am wrong though, I really don't know. I have seen the sensitivity ratings of some of the Fullrange drivers and they are terrible. I don't see how I am going to reach 110db or so in a car environment with those speakers and an 8".


Widebanders on the dash most certainly will keep up with an 8 or 10. Been done a lot and one of my personal favorite setups.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Its simple physics. A 3" with a sensitivity of 87 and power handling of 25 Watts will not keep up with a 10" with 87 DB sensitivity and 300 Watts power.

If it sounds good, more power to ya. Not it will never keep up

Sent from my phone using digital farts


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## Kpg2713 (Feb 10, 2008)

minbari said:


> Its simple physics. A 3" with a sensitivity of 87 and power handling of 25 Watts will not keep up with a 10" with 87 DB sensitivity and 300 Watts power.
> 
> If it sounds good, more power to ya. Not it will never keep up
> 
> Sent from my phone using digital farts


Actualy, there is more to it than that. You gotta consider more than a simple sensitivity rating when determining if a speaker can work with another.

Our ears are generally more sensitive to mid range frequencies, a widebander on axis on your dash may be simply closer to your ears than an 8 in your door, and fact that most people do not play thier systems full tilt are just a few of the other factors that come into play. Never mind that sensitivity is a rating at a certain frequency usually 1000hz at either 1w/m or 2.83v/m... A mid bass playing 63-500 hz with a sensitivity rated at 1000 really doesn't mean a thing. 

Obviously not all of the factors matter in every case, but look into things a little more before you say this works or that doesn't.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I would be very surprised if I needed over ~100w on 10s in doors. I've had 6x9 in doors and they put out, high power is only needed if you are wanting really high spl. The right 10 is going to be more efficient at 80-200hz than a 6.5 and should need less power to be comparable.

I'll try a 3" some day but I know the 4s I have work in that car. I had a system with 3.5 coax once that worked well, not sure how but it did. 3.5, midbass, and subs in a small truck.


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## junglejuice72 (Oct 2, 2008)

To the OP, I used to run 10's in the front doors years ago, I fitted power windows as the window winders wouldn't clear the speakers, I used quite a lot of sound deadening and built custom door trims to accomodate the drivers.
The speakers used were the Canton Rs 3.28 set, which comprised a 1" metal dome tweeter, a 5.25" paper cone mid, both of which were kick panel mounted with the bass drivers in the doors, the supplied passive crossovers were used with the set running full range, this meant that the 10's would run as low as they could go and would play very flat to at least 30hz.
At the same time I was running 3 JL10W6's and found that most of the time I would turn the subs off and just run the fronts full range which sounded great, a number of people in the local scene listen to my car at the time when I was trying to get some subs to play lower then my fron speakers and all were amazed at the sound quality from the fronts, eventually I opted for some Orion Xtr15's running IB.

Years later I removed the system and fitted it all into a newer car and just didn't sound as good, currently I run a Dynaudio sys360 with a pair of Soundstream Exact 12's in a sealed enclosure, still not as nice and dynamic sounding as the older system....


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## Ultimateherts (Nov 13, 2006)

Wy2quiet said:


> See IMO a 3" Widebander just won't be loud enough without distortion to keep up with an 8". Tell me I am wrong though, I really don't know. I have seen the sensitivity ratings of some of the Fullrange drivers and they are terrible. I don't see how I am going to reach 110db or so in a car environment with those speakers and an 8".


Simply not true at all. I have run 3" widebanders my last two setups and I bet I could have got you to leave the vehicle with their loudness. Also it depends on the 8".

As far as 10" goes I will hopefully be running Dayton RS270 10" mids on my next install. They can play clean up to 500HZ and then the 3" widebander will take over from there.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

My 3.5" midrange have absolutely no probelm keeping up with the 9s. I had them at 200hz for a while with the 9s. Now they're at 750hz with the 9s playing to 750hz as well and to say the least, no issues here. Don't know about a low sensitivity full range.


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## Thrill_House (Nov 20, 2008)

junglejuice72 said:


> To the OP, I used to run 10's in the front doors years ago, I fitted power windows as the window winders wouldn't clear the speakers, I used quite a lot of sound deadening and built custom door trims to accomodate the drivers.
> The speakers used were the Canton Rs 3.28 set, which comprised a 1" metal dome tweeter, a 5.25" paper cone mid, both of which were kick panel mounted with the bass drivers in the doors, the supplied passive crossovers were used with the set running full range, this meant that the 10's would run as low as they could go and would play very flat to at least 30hz.
> At the same time I was running 3 JL10W6's and found that most of the time I would turn the subs off and just run the fronts full range which sounded great, a number of people in the local scene listen to my car at the time when I was trying to get some subs to play lower then my fron speakers and all were amazed at the sound quality from the fronts, eventually I opted for some Orion Xtr15's running IB.
> Years later I removed the system and fitted it all into a newer car and just didn't sound as good, currently I run a Dynaudio sys360 with a pair of Soundstream Exact 12's in a sealed enclosure, still not as nice and dynamic sounding as the older system....


Do you happen to have any pics of the cantons installed in your old car?


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## junglejuice72 (Oct 2, 2008)

Thrill_House said:


> Do you happen to have any pics of the cantons installed in your old car?


I do but this was before digital cameras got affordable so the pics aren't at all great...

I had this front end....









Feeding this little guy....

















Which was pwering these...

















As I said the pics aren't great quality, it was some time ago now....

JJ


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## junglejuice72 (Oct 2, 2008)

Then I sold that car and fitted the gear into the next one....


















But I didn't like the fact that with the light grey interior it stood out too much, I like it a little more subtle....

So I went for this set up...










Which when installed looked something like this...


































Backed up by these...










And then swapped back to my old faithful favourites...


































I have since changed again but the Orion 2NT10dvc's are packed away for now, the Orion Xtr 15's are long gone...


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