# amp choice ?



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

What topology do you like ?









> Class AB amplifiers are almost the same as Class B amplifiers
> in that they have two driven transistors. However, Class AB
> amplifiers differ from Class B amplifiers in that they have a
> small idle current flowing from positive supply to negative
> ...


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## SoundChaser (Apr 3, 2009)

clean and powerful


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## mdechgan (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't think class is important as "brand name", power, price, then class.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

It depends! I prefer an amplifier that produces clean power while holding up under my abusive listening habits. Unfortunately, it took some time to find a product that met my needs.


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

mdechgan said:


> I don't think class is important as "brand name", power, price, then class.


You cannot be serious.


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## mdechgan (Dec 16, 2010)

FartinInTheTub said:


> You cannot be serious.


I am serious.

Most people out there check out the brand reputation first before selecting the amp in general. Usually in general the people have already decided what brand amp they want before they even walk in the store. Usually in advertisements or magazine or word of mouth or whoever won this competition using that, etc.

Then they choose the power/price option.

In my experience I have never had a customer ask if it was a class a/b or d. It was always Zapco, orion, ppi, mcintosh, soundstream, etc. Then they would ask how much? "Come on give me a deal." Most people wouldn't care in the world if it was a class a or d or h amp. As long as it was the brand they wanted, had the power and in their price range.

In fact I don't even care. If I wanted a class D but if I could get a good deal on a McIntosh, why not?

On ebay do people search for brand name and model number or do they type class a/b amp?

They only exception were the class a amps by soundstream. Mainly because they were the only mainstream class a amp manufacturer back in the day.


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## mdechgan (Dec 16, 2010)

Is there a class B amp on the market?
What about tube?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

mdechgan said:


> Is there a class B amp on the market?


I can't think of any true Class B amplifiers for the 12v environment.



mdechgan said:


> What about tube?


The only tube amplifiers that come to mind are the marketing gimmicks that used tube drivers on the input stage of the amplifier, Butler, US Amps, etc.


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## Durry (Oct 9, 2010)

mdechgan said:


> Is there a class B amp on the market?
> What about tube?


JL J2 320.4 is a class B amp

i used to have one but i sold it because they told me that it creates a lot of distortion.


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## mdechgan (Dec 16, 2010)

Durry said:


> JL J2 320.4 is a class B amp
> 
> i used to have one but i sold it because they told me that it creates a lot of distortion.


I've never heard a class B amp before.
How did it sound?


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## Durry (Oct 9, 2010)

mdechgan said:


> I've never heard a class B amp before.
> How did it sound?


well i never got to install it, i sold it because of the amp being type b
i've searched and read about amp types, and heard that amp type b are the one with most distortions...


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## pat_smith1969 (Feb 17, 2010)

IMO it really depends on the manufacture and model. I have a kenwood (KAC-X4R) and LOVE it. It is real quiet and sounds really good (it is debatable if it sounds as good as an A/B but regardless it sounds good). Conversely I have another Kenwood driving my sub and it is CRAP. It is supposedly 2 ohm stable but is clipping and cutting in/out (I have a 2ohm load on it) it is also class D. 

Now, there are a lot of poeple on here that will say that class D sucks and I am stupid for thinking it sounds good. There is another group of people who will say that the first group is dumb for thinking they can tell the difference between amps (they will quote some challange where a lot of money is offered to anyone who can tell the difference in a blind test). And the flame wars will begin.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

I learned firsthand that it doesn't take a bonerriffic sound quality amplifier to drive subwoofers. I'd rather go for the topology of class d as the efficient choice versus the power sapping class ab alternatives when it comes to sub bass amplification.

Besides, the sooner everyone faces up to the fact that the car is the absolute WORST environment for audio reproduction, the sooner we can then get along as one, big, happy family.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

There is a really nice tube amp by DLS, the Ultimate TA2. Those who have heard it says it's a wonderful amp. It's quite expensive though, in the 2500 USD range >.<


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

Chris, I don't see what the issue is about the vehicle being the worst listening environment. You raise that on a lot of your posts. Yes, it's terrible...And?

If you're searching for converts to home audio, I submit that we're already here. It is my opinion still that it takes a bit more work and talent to make a car audio system sound good versus a home audio setup. Why not be down for the challenge?

The idea or insinuation that a car can't sound great is ludicrous. Yes, a purpose built listening room will give a much bigger and deeper soundstage (among other things), but this is about the challenge of turning a diamond in the rough into something better. It's easy to start with a perfect level playing field...


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## FartinInTheTub (May 25, 2010)

sqcomp said:


> Chris, I don't see what the issue is about the vehicle being the worst listening environment. You raise that on a lot of your posts. Yes, it's terrible...And?
> 
> If you're searching for converts to home audio, I submit that we're already here. It is my opinion still that it takes a bit more work and talent to make a car audio system sound good versus a home audio setup. Why not be down for the challenge?
> 
> The idea or insinuation that a car can't sound great is ludicrous. Yes, a purpose built listening room will give a much bigger and deeper soundstage (among other things), but this is about the challenge of turning a diamond in the rough into something better. It's easy to start with a perfect level playing field...


I second that notion.


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

Perhaps I came off as a little "trollish" with that. Chris, don't take offense how I phrased my response. It was more of an observation than anything else.


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## PPI_GUY (Dec 20, 2007)

ChrisB said:


> I learned firsthand that it doesn't take a bonerriffic sound quality amplifier to drive subwoofers. I'd rather go for the topology of class d as the efficient choice versus the power sapping class ab alternatives when it comes to sub bass amplification.



^^^This, this, this!
Class D for subs. Class A/B for everything else...with lots of headroom!


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## RangOH (Jul 25, 2009)

> Class D for subs. Class A/B for everything else...with lots of headroom!


 If that was on the poll that would be my vote. I don't want my sub eating up all of the available current. im just a rookie though. I really don't have too much experience with different amplifier topologys only class A\B and D.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

sqcomp said:


> Chris, I don't see what the issue is about the vehicle being the worst listening environment. You raise that on a lot of your posts. Yes, it's terrible...And?
> 
> If you're searching for converts to home audio, I submit that we're already here. It is my opinion still that it takes a bit more work and talent to make a car audio system sound good versus a home audio setup. Why not be down for the challenge?
> 
> The idea or insinuation that a car can't sound great is ludicrous. Yes, a purpose built listening room will give a much bigger and deeper soundstage (among other things), but this is about the challenge of turning a diamond in the rough into something better. It's easy to start with a perfect level playing field...


My only goal these days are to get the car as good sounding as I can without spending a fortune. I've learned that it can be done but I wasted a lot of money over the years to learn this lesson.

Maybe my disdain towards the automobile stems from the fact that I am real good friends with a home theater guru. He can build a home stereo for $1,000 that will rival ANY car stereo built with that same $1,000.


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## nino_evo (Nov 25, 2009)

Tweeters Class A.

Woofer and midrange... High current


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## Bugflipper (Apr 16, 2010)

I was the first vote for tube so I guess I have to respond why. I wont get into all the pretentious mumbo jumbo. I just like the warm sound in the mids. I have my first solid state setup in 15 years or so, a class ab. Even on HAT comps it is a little too harsh in the mids and I had to cut a bit. When I get in one of the other cars the recognition is instant. The sound is not terrible with a solid state. It is just a little different.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

To make a very good full-range Class D amplifier, the switching
frequency must be well above 40,000 Hz. Also, the amplifier must be
followed by* a very good low-pass filter that will remove all of
the switching noise without causing power loss,* *phase-shift*, or
*distortion*.

Tall order !


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## 3fish (Jul 12, 2009)

mdechgan said:


> I am serious.


I took this to mean 'my' amp choice, not 3rd party decisions...


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## Dr_jitsu (Dec 17, 2010)

I will have a 3600 watt D powering my subs, an 800 watt D powering my mid base and a 670 watt AB for my mid range and tweets.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Boss DD3600 MONOBLOCK CLASS D CAR AMPLIFIER 3600W NEW! $159.99. 
Soundstorm Force Class D Monoblock Power Amplifier (3600w) - 313.00 - sears.com
Pyle-pro Dryver 3600 Watt Mono Block Mosfet Digital Ampli ... - 214.99 - ecost.com 

BrandX XXLW8004D 800-watt 4-channel Full Range Marine Amplifier $402.49


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

WiFi amps, speakers ... the whole shebang


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## oddiofile (Jan 8, 2009)

As an engineering student, I agree with the statements about D-Class eventually catching up to class A/B in terms of SQ. With that said, from the amateur radio exam: A > AB > B > D. The Class H looks like a very intelligent design although ive never heard a Class H amp. Most of the amps Ive run are class A/B and I have only ever had a D on subs.


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## jbreddawg (Dec 28, 2009)

What about class T amps ? Did they go the way of the dodo bird ? I just recently purchased a class T amp by Alpine "MRD-F757" It seems to have a pretty good reputation, I'll see how it sounds but wont hesitate to switch it out if I'm unhappy with it. 
I remember back when Class T was the next big thing but never tried one.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Tripath - Class T Amp



jbreddawg said:


> What about class T amps ? Did they go the way of the dodo bird ? I just recently purchased a class T amp by Alpine "MRD-F757" It seems to have a pretty good reputation, I'll see how it sounds but wont hesitate to switch it out if I'm unhappy with it.
> I remember back when Class T was the next big thing but never tried one.


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## jacampb2 (Dec 3, 2010)

Tripath is long gone. All the DIY class T amp projects were, last I heard, just burning through over stock of the Tripath stuff. When I did a bunch of research into this, I found one of the big semiconductor manufacturers had purchased the Tripath intellectual property, but as of 2-3 years ago they were not doing anything with it and had no plans to bring more product to market. 

A "Class T" was still actually a Class D amp, but the driver IC's that Tripath made were way ahead of their time. I believe that when they came to the market, they were basically the only full range Class D amp available. IIRC, Tripath just trademarked the "Class T" name. 

As for my choice in topology, it is AB, I will run Class D for subs, but I still would rather run AB sub amp if I can. 

Later,
Jason


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

ChrisB said:


> I learned firsthand that it doesn't take a bonerriffic sound quality amplifier to drive subwoofers. I'd rather go for the topology of class d as the efficient choice versus the power sapping class ab alternatives when it comes to sub bass amplification.
> 
> Besides, the sooner everyone faces up to the fact that the car is the absolute WORST environment for audio reproduction, the sooner we can then get along as one, big, happy family.


Mr. Negative posts another negative comment.

Why are you even here? Why do you even install equipment in your car if you want to pose this argument? It's not the best environment...sure...we all know that. That doesn't mean your ears can't hear SQ in a car. I have a fairly high end home audio system too and guess what......I still want the best SQ I can get in my car.

You have already stated you would rather run an efficient ok sounding amp over running a great SQ amp and have to upgrade your electrical. That's fine. That's your choice. We all aren't as lazy as you and care more about the sound of our music than you do. It's as simple as that.


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## Dave88LX (Dec 12, 2010)

A guy at the local stereo shop suggested that I run this amp. I'm not sold on anything yet, I'm still doing my research.

JL Audio XD700/5 Amplifiers - Car Audio Amps & Amplifiers

"Description: Five-Channel, Class D System Amplifier"

Does that mean it would not be a good amp for the mids/highs, that I'd be better off with a D for the subs, and find an A/B for my mids/highs?

Also, the amp is tiny. How does that work...


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

You'd be better off with a/b all around if you want sq. Class d amps smell like poop when they warm up....matches their sound.


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

cajunner said:


> And the class D, will be ubiquitous. Class AB will be an extravagance, like Class A is now, with Tube Class A being the most extravagant of all.
> 
> 
> 
> Like, in 5 years close, 10 years at the outside, we'll rarely see a class AB amplifier still being produced in quantity because they will be sonically inferior, they will be viewed as current hogs, unacceptable in their inefficiencies.


These two statements contradict each other. How will a/b be considered sonically inferior but then be considered an extravagance at the same time. If they were truely sonically inferior then they wouldnt be sought after.

Also, what most people forget is that class d amps ARE NOT greatly more efficient than class a/b. The efficiency gains are minimal and also depend on your listening levels. There is a much larger efficiency difference going from TRUE class a to class a/b than going from class a/b to class d. Its not a fair comparison.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

jimmy2345 said:


> Why are you even here?


I often wonder that myself.



jimmy2345 said:


> Why do you even install equipment in your car if you want to pose this argument? It's not the best environment...sure...we all know that. That doesn't mean your ears can't hear SQ in a car. I have a fairly high end home audio system too and guess what......I still want the best SQ I can get in my car.


Between the unequal path lengths, reflective surfaces, and extraneous noise injected into the system, I often wonder why I bothered myself.



jimmy2345 said:


> You have already stated you would rather run an efficient ok sounding amp over running a great SQ amp and *have to upgrade your electrical.*


Where did I ever mention NOT upgrading my electrical system? I am a firm believer in the phrase that it takes power to make power. After all, I went through painstaking steps to ensure that my Civic had a 175 amp alternator while disabling Honda's ELD circuit. That was no easy task to pull off and made the vehicle emissions illegal in the process. Unfortunately, that vehicle is now rusting in peace.

My Mustang currently has a re-wound alternator that was alleged to output 200 amps by the electrical shop who did the work. 



jimmy2345 said:


> That's fine. That's your choice. We all aren't as lazy as you and care more about the sound of our music than you do. It's as simple as that.


:laugh: Lazy, good one. This coming from the person pushing 15 year old relics from the past as the best SQ products available ever. It's cool though because I realized the error of my ways and decided to embrace that thing called technological advances whereas you choose to stick with the Alpine 7909 and Linear Power DPS amplifiers.

I'll dedicate this song to you:


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## jimmy2345 (Jul 12, 2010)

I dont run a 7909 nor even own one at the moment. You have no clue what I run currently so keep making ASSumptions....we all know it suits you. 

Age of equipment has nothing to do with sound. I wouldnt expect someone as hypocritical, argumentative, and unsure of themselves as you to understand that.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

The current ICEpower amps are similar class D to the tripaths but much newer design, the class D section is done with an IC rather than discrete, though I don't design amps lol. More or less an amp maker can buy this circuit and plug it into their amp and it works well, then still make their own power supply and preamp sections. Its cheaper I'm told, though making the class D part yourself is getting easier all the time.

Class D will eventually take over most amp designs, why make something else? Class D can deliver all the sonic excellence any human can hear long as its built and used properly much like any other amp...and it takes less power. Sure you don't notice much until you make bass with the amp, then you really see the efficiency difference.

The class G/H are usually a class AB with a varied power supply. A class AB is less efficient when the power supply has high voltage and the amp is producing a low power signal, so the power supply lowers its output when its not needed thus increasing efficiency. The class H is more complex it follows power usage more closely: Electronic amplifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The JL hybrid are said to be near the same efficiency as class D.

On the other hand the power difference (efficiency class D vs AB) is limited with mid/highs it really does not matter that much if you use class D or AB...unless you are power limited such as a portable system/parked car or boat/tiny alternator/etc., then any savings helps. 

I always use class D on sub over about 300rms, since most cars can run a class AB 300rms with no problems plus your mid/highs amplifiers; it hardly matters until you get larger on subs. Unless I was doing a retro system I guess. Class AB amps are very mature, even some slop shop in China can make one cheap and an off the shelf design will work fairly well.

I'd love to try a Leviathon or similar and be happy with it, some day. One thing I do prefer is an amp that is just large enough and clips nicely and the only ones that do seem to be very expensive such as a Mac, or some old school amps. Mostly because I hate installing huge amps and I'd rather not use an amp that can blow my brains (or drivers) out if I get the urge. For subs though, mostly I could care less its class D over 300rms. This is not what most people do, who just use a ton of wattage on everything. I don't really care if it clips at full tilt, I'll adjust amp size to determine that point, however how it clips then becomes important and its not a rated spec. A lot of people are talking about the sound of an amp breaking up when they say they don't like it.

Also note here Kenwood - KAC-X4R it says digital amplifier, that only means it has DSP. It says nothing about class D. It does say class D here though wonder why that is Kenwood Excelon KAC-X4R 4 Channel Amplifiers - Car Amplifiers at Onlinecarstereo.com This is not the only amp with this problem. So who thinks a manufacturer would sell a class D and not say it was? Class D is digital but so is DSP.

So in the end excepting the power draw of bass, you can run whatever kind of amp you want. A real class A will take a crap load of power though and very few real class A were made most were high bias AB...and AB works just fine anyway. So there is really no big reason not to use class AB a mature and well researched topology, so why would it go away that fast in car audio...or long as its easier/cheaper to make than class D/G/H. Since class D can be done all digital I think at some point it will be cheaper (all on ICs) and can accomplish full digital and DSP to the outputs, it is coming some are doing it now. Some factory systems are all DSP tuned to the car but I don't know that much about them. I have iirc a mark levin factory amp I looked at and it has a huge DSP chip running it, the DSP is the whole preamp. You can make a great amp with any of the above designs, it really does depend on your needs and the quality of the amp itself.


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## junebug (Jan 19, 2007)

Zed Audio is producing a 4 channel tube amp on both input and output circuits that is due in Feb, this should be interesting...


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

sqshoestring said:


> *Class D is digital but so is DSP*.
> 
> Since class D can be done all digital I think at some point it will be cheaper (all on ICs) and can accomplish full digital and DSP to the outputs, it is coming some are doing it now.


*Maybe in your head*

*The Truth About Digital (Class D) Amplifiers*
by Bruno Putzeys — last modified* August 29, 2004*

The Truth About Digital (Class D) Amplifiers — Reviews and News from Audioholics



> 3) A pulse-edge delay error compensating amp. The idea behind such amplifiers is to measure the difference between the power stage and a "reference pwm node". The reference PWM node is a small switching stage that delivers no current and can be made very precise. When the power stage makes a timing error or an amplitude error (which it does) the error correction circuit will modify the duty cycle to compensate for that, so that the low-frequency content better matches that of the PWM reference node.
> 3.1) Is the PWM reference node digital? Clearly not. The correction scheme explicitly looks at the low-frequency content at the PWM node so any noise added there will be reproduced at the output with great fidelity. Actually you could replace the PWM input with a stable square wave and superimpose an analogue input signal and you'll get that signal at the output.
> The PWM reference node may look like a flip-flop, it functions as a DAC. The power stage works synchronously to the DAC but this is merely confusing matters (apart from removing ripple aliasing, which is outside the scope of this post).
> 3.2) Is the signal going to the reference flip-flop digital? Yes. (explanation is left as an exercise to the reader).
> ...


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

> "Digital" Amplifiers: *There really is no such thing as a “digital” amplifier*, although the marketplace sometimes tends to promote certain amplifiers as being “digital”. When the term digital is associated with a power amplifier, it is often a buzz word used by the vendor that may refer to the design of the power supply and/or the design of the output stage. Some amplifiers use power supplies that are the switching type (sometimes referred to as a DC - DC converter). The term "digital" is also sometimes associated with amplifiers of the more exotic classes (class G, H, S, *and especially D*). Class G, H and S amplifiers use special switching circuits that try to minimize the voltage that is dropped in the output semiconductor devices (thus resulting in higher efficiency). Class D uses a totally different scheme for amplification (and is the most legitimate class to be termed "digital", although Class D is still an analog circuit design). NOTE: An amp touting itself as digital in no way means that it is inherently better at producing sound from "digital" sources such as CDs!!! Most all car stereo amps (those above about 10 watts per channel) use a switching power supply. What advantages does a switching power supply offer? For car audio (which runs on a 13.8 VDC power source) there is no way to get high power to speakers without boosting the amplifier’s power supply rail voltage to higher levels.


They do both start with *the letter D* [ mebbe that's it ].


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

jimmy2345 said:


> You'd be better off with a/b all around if you want sq. Class d amps smell like poop when they warm up....matches their sound.


LOL !!! That was an EPIC post !!! True also ...


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## KrackerG (Jan 18, 2011)

i prefer to buy an amp based on reputation!!?? i have always bought soundstream, earthquake, or hifonics..something i believe it, not the rating. if i had to choose, i would say A all the way!


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

All I've ever owned and used is class A/B amps (Linear Power) ... 
Sounds Great for SQ and capable of putting up impressive SPL numbers too ...


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

I want an amplifier with the most possible headroom, with the lowest audible distortion in the smallest footprint that I can find. Oh, and it should sound good, too...


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

Chaos said:


> I want an amplifier with the most possible headroom, with the lowest audible distortion in the smallest footprint that I can find. Oh, and it should sound good, too...


Just a suggestion please ... Try Linear Power DPS350 or DPS500 ... or my personal favorite, the Linear Power 2.2hv ...


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Doh! I selected AB before I noticed the tube option. But I own a hybrid anyway.. :lol:

ClassAB just gives you the love. If I was pushing more power than I would explore a ClassD alternative just for less strain on my electrical system.


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

BowDown said:


> Doh! I selected AB before I noticed the tube option. But I own a hybrid anyway.. :lol:
> 
> ClassAB just gives you the love. If I was pushing more power than I would explore a ClassD alternative just for less strain on my electrical system.


What is a hybrid ?? And how would a class D have LESS strain on a electrical system ??


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

I prefer redheads with big hooters!


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Cablguy184 said:


> What is a hybrid ?? And how would a class D have LESS strain on a electrical system ??



Hybrid would be Class GH which is what some of the Arc Audio other uBuy amplifiers run. It has the same sound characteristic of a class ab amplifier but is more efficient due to the switching power supply.

At lower volume, a Class D amplifier WILL produce LESS strain on an electrical system because of its ability to switch off the unused FETs in the power supply. Some of my old school class AB amplifiers were a whopping 5 to 20 percent efficient at 1/3 volume which can equate to a LOT of current draw if you are talking about a big boy. 

For another example, I own one amp that would pull a whopping 110 amps to make 200 watts RMS per channel (400 watts RMS total) into a 4 ohm stereo load. I recently had it re-biased towards the middle versus more towards class A where it was initially biased to back down that draw. Right now, it is on standby just in case I don't like the half-bridge class d amplifier that I recently purchased.

Lastly, I never know if I am going to like something or not unless I try it out!


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

Cool ... I will keep what I got ... Until the New Lineup rolls out ... 
(even then I will NEVER let go of my "old School" amps ...


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## Chaos (Oct 27, 2005)

Cablguy184 said:


> Just a suggestion please ... Try Linear Power DPS350 or DPS500 ... or my personal favorite, the Linear Power 2.2hv ...


If they met any of my requirements, I would. I've always been curious about LP, but they are old tech and are not a good value.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

You need to upgrade the electrical system of your vehicle , if you plan to run them to their full potential !

*It takes the most power to make the cleanest sound !*

amp draw on dem babies is* S-E-R-I-O-U-S ![*/SIZE]


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## kvndoom (Nov 13, 2009)

Durry said:


> JL J2 320.4 is a class B amp
> 
> i used to have one but i sold it because they told me that it creates a lot of distortion.


Because "they" told you...? That's kind of funny.  I'm not too sure the "Class B" wasn't a typo, especially since its successor, the JX series, is now listed as AB (dunno, maybe Manville could clarify this). I did own one, and it was a nice solid low-cost amp. They go for 120$ now... can't go wrong at that price if you're on a budget.


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

Chaos said:


> If they met any of my requirements, I would. I've always been curious about LP, but they are old tech and are not a good value.


I'd be willing to bet that if you set in my truck and listen to a demo, you would change your mind on this ... 
They put out the cleanest sound, VERY powerfull, WELL worth their money, and best of all - Built in the USA !!!!!!!!!!


Oliver said:


> You need to upgrade the electrical system of your vehicle , if you plan to run them to their full potential !
> It takes the most power to make the cleanest sound !
> amp draw on dem babies is S-E-R-I-O-U-S !


This is true ... I have 5 batteries, upgraded wiring, & a stronger alternator. 
These type of things needs to be done to just about any strong system built these days ...


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Cablguy184 said:


> This is true ... I have 5 batteries, upgraded wiring, & a stronger alternator.
> These type of things needs to be done to just about any strong system built these days ...


Ever put a clamp on your setup to see exactly how much current your amps pull at full tilt and lower volume?


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

ChrisB said:


> Ever put a clamp on your setup to see exactly how much current your amps pull at full tilt and lower volume?


No sir ... My system was designed and built by Robert Rayfield and Mike Flanagan.
I have never had any problems out of my system to ever question the integrity of it ... Full tilt or critical listening, it performs WELL beyond any of my expectations ...


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Interesting thread here... I'm not sure which I actually prefer though I have always ran A/B for everything. I will admit the only two class D amps I've used (BP300.1, BP1200.1) didn't run any where near as hot as a bridged A/B. As for the 1200, bass was noticeably improved, but that could have been a result of headroom as it was only running about 100 watts more @ 4 ohms than the bridged amp it replaced.

With that said, which is more important, topology, efficiency, or headroom?


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

When it comes to what sounds "the best" to many, they tend to choose those Class AB which is biased a tad bit more towards class A (sorry, not mentioning any brand names here). Why? Because biasing towards Class A adds a bit of distortion to the music versus an amp that is true to the signal that it is amplifying. For some reason, they prefer the "sound" with that distortion versus an amplifier that does not produce it. 

Of course, there is a tradeoff for this unique sonic signature because it will make the amplifier less efficient.


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Hmmm..... very interesting!! I am familiar with that theory. I remember doing some reading a long while ago about such. IIRC the consensus (feel free to correct me) was that if the sound was too pure & clean, some felt it was lifeless, more digitized so to speak. They felt a minute bit of distortion sort of added warmth, more realness to it. Very odd there, but I could see that point having grown up around records & tapes. First listening to a digital recording was rather odd to me as well, but you learn to adjust fast.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Bayboy said:


> Hmmm..... very interesting!! I am familiar with that theory. I remember doing some reading a long while ago about such. IIRC the consensus (feel free to correct me) was that if the sound was too pure & clean, some felt it was lifeless, more digitized so to speak. They felt a minute bit of distortion sort of added warmth, more realness to it. Very odd there, but I could see that point having grown up around records & tapes. First listening to a digital recording was rather odd to me as well, but you learn to adjust fast.


That is exactly why some of the old school "purists" don't like the new technology full-range Class D amplifiers. The JL Audio HD and even Zed's offerings are pretty much ruler flat from 20 Hz to 20 kHz whereas their precious class AB amplifiers introduce a unique sonic signature due to their biasing towards class A. Hence the reason terms like cold, flat, dull, and lifeless are used to describe their experience with the full range class D offerings available.

Of course, with subs, I still say the most efficient choice is the better to use when going for big power. After all, what do subs reproduce, a whopping 2 octaves of musical content? Why not use the most efficient technology here while using what sounds best to you on your mids and highs? I have another thread here that notates exactly how many amplifiers I've gone through since 2007 only to learn that what some deem a SQ subwoofer doesn't necessarily need a SQ amplifier to power it!


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## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Vague question, but what do you consider big power in regards to your post?

How about a link to that post as I am considering some options for an upcoming personal install? Currently my setup consists of all A/B, but the other option consists of a class D for the sub. I want to include cosmetics as well so matching the amps is important. This will have major bearing on if I need to acquire the other amps to do so.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Bayboy said:


> Vague question, but what do you consider big power in regards to your post?
> 
> How about a link to that post as I am considering some options for an upcoming personal install? Currently my setup consists of all A/B, but the other option consists of a class D for the sub. I want to include cosmetics as well so matching the amps is important. This will have major bearing on if I need to acquire the other amps to do so.


When I say "big power", I am talking 1,000 watts RMS or more from a single amplifier. Granted, the class GH amplifiers aren't bad solutions for monoblocks, but their efficiency is still around 70% whereas class D amplifiers can have efficiencies in the 90% range. 

Also, those larger Class AB amplifiers that tout efficiencies in the 60% range become highly inefficient at lower volume levels due to their inability to switch off the unneeded components in the amp. When I say highly inefficient, I am talking about those Class AB amplifiers that are only 20 to 40 percent efficient at "normal" listening levels. There is nothing like watching a 500 watt Class AB amplifier pull 20 to 40 amps to produce 100 watts RMS whereas a Class D counterpart will pull less than 10 amps.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

and it sounds like **** doing it..


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## Gary S (Dec 11, 2007)

I hate to crash the party, but you won't hear distortion differences from unclipped amplifiers. This is because the distortion figure for speakers are many times higher, and will effectively mask any distortion the amplifier has. Go look up a distortion figure for a midrange speaker and see what I mean... if you can find one... the figures are so high, the manufacturers are probably embarrassed to publish them in most cases.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

yep you can hear it..
no amp goes in my car without going thru the home system first.. and NO class D g h or FULL RANGE switching amp has ever made past the home.. and not just with me but many many listeners.. and FYI my SUB amp is a CROWN K2 switching amp. SUB AMP!

and I can hear test tone distortion downs to 0.0X% I apparently am one of the unlucky few who are very sensitive to distortion. sorry your argument for high speaker distortion does not cut it.. ever listened to a HALCRO amp (0.0005% or better -120db).. suggest you do sometimes against an amp that puts out clean power a 0.1% dist.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

biasing towards class A does not introduce distortion.. it changes the point where the amp switches to a/b mode..depending on the topology.. a class A amp has NO switching distortion.. the outputs are on all the time. class A = less distortion.. it depends on the topology of the amp.. but that statement is totally incorrect.. sorry chris.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

tnbubba said:


> biasing towards class A does not introduce distortion.. it changes the point where the amp switches to a/b mode..depending on the topology.. a class A amp has NO switching distortion.. the outputs are on all the time. class A = less distortion.. it depends on the topology of the amp.. but that statement is totally incorrect.. sorry chris.


Splain this boneriffic, SQ distortion level then:









Yes, that is distortion crossing the signal threshold.  Modderiffice Ess Quez for your ear drumz yo!:laugh: 

I wonder if their pretty colors were a pun on their sound coloration?

Edit, I measured this before:









and this after:









Sadly, I was able to repeat the distortion/non-flat frequency response on the "mystery amp" multiple times. I wanted to make sure that what I was seeing was NOT a mistake because I couldn't believe my eyes. Now I see why their followers swear that the maker of the "mystery" amp sound different than anything else they ever heard. It is because it DOES through audible coloration of the sound via distortion and equalization.

Congrats, all that detail they are claiming to hear with that certain brand of amp that they never heard with any other amp is coloration and IS NOT there.


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

i said SWITCHING distortion.. hell a ****ty class A amp can distort..
just like tube amps do.. again go listen to and measure a halcro..


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

What is a halcro


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## ATOMICTECH62 (Jan 24, 2009)

There is a lot of good good reading in this thread.A lot of different opinions.What I would like to know is WTF is up with the Kicker Warhorse?

Class DXZ?


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## tnbubba (Mar 1, 2008)

halcro dm series ..lowest distortion amps ever produced.....
by admission of many audio designers of the few that have seen the inside of a ripped apart $50000 amp, looks nothing like a typical amplifier circuit.


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> There is a lot of good good reading in this thread.A lot of different opinions.What I would like to know is WTF is up with the Kicker Warhorse?
> 
> Class DXZ?


If companies could label their amps "Class Yabba-Dabba-Do" and make a few more bucks doing so; they would.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

I've only run a few A/Bs and a couple Ds but I would have to say class D without a doubt. I don't believe you can hear the difference other than eq and power and the class D are so much more convenient in several ways. I have to laugh at my JL HD600/4 next to my McIntosh 430. I don't think I could power the entire 3-way plus subs plus center with just two McIntoshes under the seats.


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## lizardking (Nov 8, 2008)

Class D for me as well. I'm sorry, but I cannot hear the difference in these newer Class D's. For example the PPI Phantoms. Outstanding performers! Outstanding cost! Outstanding size!


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## CLE (Sep 29, 2007)

I have always preferred A/B, but the older class G amps were very close in sound quality without requiring as much current draw.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I prefer AB if for no other reason than the clipping characteristics. Yeah, they're bigger but when they do break up they don't make me want to throw them out the window.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> I prefer AB if for no other reason than the clipping characteristics. Yeah, they're bigger but when they do break up they don't make me want to throw them out the window.


How do they differ?


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

I've mostly had class A/B amplifiers over the years. I'm not really an amplifier class nazi or anything, but I am brand conscious and that has mostly lead me to pick Class A/B topology. I've had Precision Power Art Series, and PowerClass amps in older cars, and Audison amps in my last 2 cars.

One thing I will mention is that in my older cars, amplifier power consumption was always an issue for me. Whether it was my old Honda, Acura or Lexus... they all had problems with lights dimming, even with capacitors. I'm sure that stronger alternators might have made a difference, but more efficient amps certainly could have helped.

Heat was another issue. I had a JL Audio HD750/1 running a 12W6v2 subwoofer @ 2 ohms for a while in my previous car, and it was excellent. Never got hot no matter how hard I pushed it. My Audison LRx4.1k 4 channel that was running my fronts for a while... that thing got so hot it was dangerous. Could burn you very easily if you touched it.

Never tried class D on mids or highs, however. I believe that when I get my wife her new car I will run all JL HD series amps for her. I'm very curious to see if I can really hear the difference.

The current amp in my system is 5 channels with a mix of Class A, Class A/B and Class D. I think it is a great amp, but I have found myself wanting more power, especially on the midbass. That's why I have some new amps ready to go in soon.  There will be a true Class A going on the horns, and a pair of Class A/B amps (each bridged mono) running the midbass, and a Class A/B (bridged mono) to run the subs.


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## Hanatsu (Nov 9, 2010)

The good ol' class topology debate :snacks:


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## subterFUSE (Sep 21, 2009)

Hanatsu said:


> The good ol' class topology debate :snacks:


How about MP3 vs. FLAC? :laugh:


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Lol, my infinity 4x125 class D sounds awesome and has plenty of power for me. Maybe why the woman keeps driving my car now and I don't get to listen to it.

So at least for a bass amp, why would you need to let it clip? Just get a class D large enough for you. My 500rms is fine on IB subs the roof vibrates, but I'd just grab 800-1Kw for a box. With today's tech unless the amp is cheaper than dirt it sounds exactly like the maker wanted it to, if you clip it then that is your fault though I agree I have run selected AB amps because they clipped much nicer. Now I just run way more power and don't clip it.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

SkizeR said:


> How do they differ?


ABs clip much more softly. I'll see if I can find the good article about it but if you're not clipping then it doesn't matter. If you get into clipping, I like AB better.


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## mercury02 (Jul 20, 2014)

as of today walk into a store buy brand new off the shelf
for mid-bass and highs
Mercury Tube MS-90 
Class A/B
Linear Power
Mosconi
Audison
Brax
Sinfoni
subs Class D
RE Audio
Mercury MS-1500
Shok Industries
Addictive Audio


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

Currently running JL slash ab for highs/mb and slash D for sub duties.

Will be running all JL HD class D next year when I change all the amps out and retire the slash series amps. I will be doing it so I can save space and be able to run the bridged HD600/4's to my mids and MB and split 150X4 to my tweets and rears. Sub will get the HD1200/1.

No way my charging system would survive any more abuse by keeping class AB.


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

5 years old poll, you people bored?


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## Grindcore (Dec 12, 2012)

Never used class d for mids or highs but always used one for sub stage...well that was up until recently...just switched it out for the Zapco DC1101...it doesnt run much warmer than what the class D did...i cant say anything either about it being more power hungry....sound wise i dunno i cant hear a difference! but i mainly bought it for the extra processing power the amp has.


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## mmnjtwa (Apr 6, 2015)

cajunner said:


> let's assume that there are factors that affect the sound quality of a class D amplifier with the road blocks being of a parts nature.
> 
> Circuits that should sound great, cannot because the state of semiconductor art, doesn't allow it.
> 
> ...


We're coming up on your five year mark, and people are already arguing that the class D technology is there.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

Oliver said:


> To make a very good full-range Class D amplifier, the switching
> frequency must be well above 40,000 Hz. Also, the amplifier must be
> followed by* a very good low-pass filter that will remove all of
> the switching noise without causing power loss,* *phase-shift*, or
> ...


I forget who it was that told me that Alpine does a good job at this as they were somewhat pioneers at using classD in the amps. (?)


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## Hoptologist (Sep 14, 2012)

Class G/H for the wi........never mind.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

If class D amp does not sound great full range, its because the maker didn't want it to....same as with any other amp. Think about it, think about the PC in your phone and tell me there is not technology to make a cheap class D car amp. Soon you might have to find some old retired engineer to design one, or a high school kid in Asia. My Kappa amp rocks, does exactly what its supposed to and takes less power all the time....oh and its smaller too and does not get hot. I love my old amps, but really need to figure out what to do with them.


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## Alias essSQuee (Dec 22, 2009)

Traditionally, people select Class-A/B amps because they 'clip' with a more pleasant sound, but if you're not going to 'clip' the amplifier, then you aren't going to get an audible difference, at least not one you can ABX.

I am using a tube preamp from Victor on my tweeter line from an MS-8 processor. So far, the effect is very subtle, almost inaudible, but I like it. I'm going to be permanently keeping this. I have all Class-D JL Audio HD amplifiers. I very nearly went with the JBL MS amplifiers but wanted that extra little bit of headroom and the better S/N ratio of a super high end amplifier design. I probably wasted a chunk of cash on the JL HD amps though as they are dramatic overkill on the power needs.


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## teldzc1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Considering how much headroom we actually build into our systems, do we actually hit clipping if gains are set correctly? 

There's more to amps than output topology. I'll go out on a limb and say that much of the audible differences in amps come from their front end circuit rather than the output.


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## zapcoaudio (Sep 26, 2015)

Using all AB class amps


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