# Audi S4 active build with HAT, Zapco



## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Meet my 2004 Audi S4 in dolphin gray, which I picked up recently. Nappa leather Recaro seats behind a 4.2L V8, quattro AWD and sport suspension. Torque, handling, class, understatement and practicality all wrapped up in one dignified (though quite heavy and complex) German package.




























Goals: 
- SQ
- Quiet ride
- Maintain factory fit & finish
- Preserve trunk space

Here is the system. I consider it stage 1 of a work in progress. I'd like to add more power, amp channels, and deadening when I find the time. So I'm calling this install "Dolphin SQ V1.0" (named for the color).










I thought the removable 2-DIN stock head unit was an implicit nod by Audi to the audio aftermarket. WRONG! Audi does not approve of your audio project and doesn't want you screwing around with your car. There are lots of little things they did to make it difficult for people like us, including no ACC or illumination wires behind the deck (this stuff is apparently controlled by computer signals). VW/Audi apparently thinks that every car they create is Das Uber Auto, and that Bose makes Das Uber Stereo, and it will never require modification because it is the pinnacle of das Kraut engineering. 

But I guess some new cars are even more difficult, where you can't replace the deck at all. This was a major factor in my car purchase decision.

Anyway, I just put the Bose stuff where I put all factory car stereo stuff.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Now, on with the good stuff. Here is the interior layout. Mids are way forward in the doors and tweeters are facing each other. No steering wheel controls, nor would I want them. My goal is to mount RCA and USB input jacks but not intrude upon the interior fit and finish.










I bought the car with two Zapco Reference amps and a JL sub in a fitted box. Amazingly this stuff transferred owners twice before it got to me! For all the money the original owner must have spent on this equipment, the install was mediocre, with the amps mounted to the sides of the trunk, scary grounding, and other signs of a swift job done on the cheap. It would require some proper DIY attention.

Here are the amps. 

360.4










350.2










Of course, I had to open them up to blow the dust out and poke around...



















Here is the sub, as I found it, and as it will remain for now. It's a JL 10W1 and it ain't the best. Something better is on the wish list for Dolphin SQ V2.0. 










Eclipse CD7200 MKII, out of my previous car.










And some new Hybrid L6's for the doors. 



















The HAT speakers are brand new so I broke them in with pink noise at medium volume for about 30 hours on the bench system. Here's a video of a quick high-volume interval, where you can really see the cones jumping around. _Edit: click to view._




So that's the setup. Installation photos to follow.


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## DonH (Jun 25, 2009)

high quality.... i love it!


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## s4turn (Jun 17, 2009)

wicked car, Im starting to like audi's now 

Nice gear too


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

Ludemandan said:


> I thought the removable 2-DIN stock head unit was an implicit nod by Audi to the audio aftermarket. WRONG! Audi does not approve of your audio project and doesn't want you screwing around with your car. There are lots of little things they did to make it difficult for people like us, including no ACC or illumination wires behind the deck (this stuff is apparently controlled by computer signals). VW/Audi apparently thinks that every car they create is Das Uber Auto, and that Bose makes Das Uber Stereo, and it will never require modification because it is the pinnacle of das Kraut engineering.


This is so true, I just spent the weekend fighting with various pieces of das Kraut engineering, and came away with cut hands, and a non functioning stereo. Part of this was my fault, but Das Uber Stereo was a PITA to remove.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

naiku said:


> This is so true, I just spent the weekend fighting with various pieces of das Kraut engineering, and came away with cut hands, and a non functioning stereo. Part of this was my fault, but Das Uber Stereo was a PITA to remove.


What's up dude, you know me, I'm earthtodan on Audizine. I had a Prelude when I got into car audio and now I'm stuck with the name Ludemandan on this forum. :mean:


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## naiku (May 28, 2008)

Ludemandan said:


> What's up dude, you know me, I'm earthtodan on Audizine. I had a Prelude when I got into car audio and now I'm stuck with the name Ludemandan on this forum. :mean:


Haha yep, I know now, did you see my post on Audizine about my frigging nightmare weekend? or the post I started here?


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Yep, I responded on AZ, you should have received notification by now.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

I bought lots of deadening, both Raammat and Second Skin. Then I came across Sound Deadener Showdown and read his article, and learned that you don't have to load the doors with several full coverage layers of mat to stop them from resonating. According to Don of SDS, the edges of a panel don't resonate, only the middle, and the answer is to use a little damper and a lot of mass-loaded vinyl. MLV blocks noise. So I bought some from a place in CA. This stuff is heavy so I recommend ordering from your area of the country to save money on shipping. 

Also, Don sells a butyl rope that you stuff between your outer door and the side impact bar, to brace the sheet metal to the bar and cut down the resonant area. And here it is.










This is the gap we're trying to close. I never thought of it before, but it's low-hanging fruit in terms of a sound deadening technique.










And here's what it looks like with the stuff stuffed in, and deadener in the middle area of the remaining panel (I ended up adding more deadener than what is shown here).










The mass-loaded vinyl I bought has closed cell foam adhered to one side. The vinyl itself is kind of like a tire, but different. The idea is to cut it around the shape of your door skin, cut out where necessary and apply with industrial strength velcro. 

Foam side:










Vinyl side:










Then attach it to your door like this:










Unfortunately, too many parts of the Audi door skin are too close to the door for this to fit, and I could not press the panel back on. I started cutting holes, and then making them bigger, and it pretty quickly turned into swiss cheese that would not be very effective at blocking sound.

But all was not lost, because I put them inside the door instead. This is not easy with the multi-layer material. I had to fold it a couple times, stuff it through a hole and then unfold it inside the door. Then reach into the corners and take off the velcro backings. If my hands were any bigger, I wouldn't have been able to do it. This is a rear door with MLV applied inside.










Next I installed deflex pads from Second Skin. I bought them on impluse and I think they're overpriced. Whether they make a difference in my sound, I may never know.










I stuck them on with Stinger SAS, a professional grade spray adhesive.


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## Duncan345 (Apr 30, 2010)

Looks like a great setup! You are doing it the right way with the sound deadening... I can see Don pointed you in the right direction. He did the same thing for me. Unfortunately, I won't have time to install mine until January 3rd.

It might be a little too late for this, but some of the cars built by the Volkswagen group have removable outer door skins. If your car has them you will see torx bolts along the sides of the doors.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Duncan345 said:


> It might be a little too late for this, but some of the cars built by the Volkswagen group have removable outer door skins. If your car has them you will see torx bolts along the sides of the doors.


Yep, my roommate was able to do this with his GTI. Unfortunately it cannot be done on my S4.

By the way, I still have at least half the roll of butyl rope left over if someone wants to pick it up.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

It took two layers of 3/4" MDF to space out the speaker. This makes the L6 just fit between the window rail and the door grill. I made more than I needed, and I still have two left over if anyone wants them. I also have a PDF and CAD file of the shape that I can share. 










Rather than using the foam rings that come with the speakers, I used some DAP silicone caulk on both sides of the MDF. 










DAP requires you also use a dispenser gun, which was an extra $3.99 at the local hardware store. Trying to get the silicone out of the tube without this would be futile. 










Speaker mounted on driver's door:










In order to make the door panel go back on, I had to shave some material from the bottom flange, making the screw sit about 1/2" closer to the door.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

In order to make the door panels go back on, I also had to break off the plastic ring that seals the airspace around the stock speaker. 










I should probably make my own seal... that's on the to-do list. 

The tweeters simply pressed into the stock location behind the grills on the top of the doors.


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

Nice car.. Das Uber Cars, hmm, sure, ask me about the B5 that is in the garage with a clicking FPR that won't start. Oh and don't get me started on the Blose system or the door panels, err I mean the single sheet metal doors..


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

AccordUno said:


> Blose


Nice.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

And for the spare tire well, a quart of eDead V3 that I had sitting around.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Speaker wiring into the doors was a royal pain in the ass. The hole in the chassis is shaped for the Molex plug, which doesn't leave much extra room.










I don't think I'd have been able to complete this part of the install without the help of proper nutrition.










Racer 5 is, IMHO, one of NorCal's finest IPAs. And that's saying something! 

The Symbilink cables (balanced inputs, for those who are unfamiliar) went up through the passenger pillars and above the headliner. There is no easy way to stuff them under the carpet, and I didn't have the time or space to remove the front seats and carpeting. This was easier. 










The SLDIN balanced input converters are stashed above the glove compartment, behind the passenger airbag. There are three of them up there, although you can barely see two.


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## minibox (Mar 25, 2009)

Looking good and I love the car. 
I know space is an issue but I'd seriously consider sending more power to the L6's. I've heard them put out some fantastic sounding midbass with some more juice.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

One very important point about car audio installation is that Racer 5 actually tastes better when you pour it into a glass. The better the glass, the better it tastes. I think it just needs to breathe a little.













minibox said:


> Looking good and I love the car.
> I know space is an issue but I'd seriously consider sending more power to the L6's. I've heard them put out some fantastic sounding midbass with some more juice.


I dig what you're saying, and I actually have a plan for that. It will have to be executed at a later date. It will look something like this.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

The amps went upside-down under the trunk deck. Here's how it started out, with the factory sub removed. With bare chassis on the trunk ceiling from the factory, it would not be hard to maintain or improve upon.










I decided to make the rack out of ABS plastic instead of MDF to keep it lower profile and lighter. I used 3/16" ABS custom cut from my local Tap Plastics store. However, I'd recommend using at least 1/4". 

The piece required some more cutting on the corners. 










At each step I set the piece up with jack stands to test fit to its exact location.










While it was up there, I measured the depth from pre-existing holes in the trunk deck down to the amp rack, and cut some pieces from a rod of 3/4" delrin to match.










Then put it back on the jack stands and make sure it fits.










Then drilled holes for the wires, and applied carpet on both sides, again using Stinger SAS.



















I cut the edges of the carpet to match, and I think it came out okay, although you can't see it when it's mounted up.










The rack ended up hanging from 6 pieces of delrin (one of them is really short). Two of them use through bolts that thread into holes in the rear deck that used to be used for the sub; the rest use screws that are threaded into the plastic from both ends and seem to have a really high pullout strength. In the below picture, it's just hanging there so I can route the wires in through the top.










Secured to the top, with all the wires pushed through and ready to meet the amp terminals:


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

One of the things that makes an Audi hard to work on is the clips. They have a sharp angle going in, but an obtuse angle coming out, so they tend to stay stuck in the metal. 










With some effort, they can be fished out and reinstalled in the plastic. If you know how to work it, you should be able to put it all back together the way it was before without losing any clips.


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## SSCustoms (Oct 16, 2008)

Ludemandan said:


> One of the things that makes an Audi hard to work on is the clips. They have a sharp angle going in, but an obtuse angle coming out, so they tend to stay stuck in the metal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see Brian Parriott in the background!!!


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

SSCustoms said:


> I see Brian Parriott in the background!!!


You know Parriott? Dope! I used to turn work at AFM races, and I got that signed poster at one of the end-of-year events at Buttonwillow.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

All the wiring and adjustments are hidden when you open the trunk. All you see is two black blocks of aluminum across the top.

From the inside, the wiring and adjustments are accessible through the seats.










Which fold down in a 60/40 split...










To reveal amps, which roughly match the split of the seats.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

super clean trunk!


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Thanks! The patches on the side panels are where all the wiring used to protrude in the original owner's installation.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

I put a bunch of deadening and a layer of MLV on the rear wheel wells. This pushed the side panels out a little so the cargo clips would not fit. I had to cut a bit of the panel away.










And the clip fits again.










By the way, this install has taken me over a week, I didn't do it in the time it took me to post this thread. I actually took a week off work so I'd have all the time I needed.


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## jivitup (Nov 2, 2009)

Nice install! Never really thought about running wire through the headliner


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## RMF419 (Feb 13, 2008)

Great install, very neat and factory looking.


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## cannan (Jan 19, 2010)

Great install, I like how the amps are mounted on the rear deck. 

Out of curiosity what screws did you use to secure the mdf rings to the door panel?


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## Jh8909 (Nov 17, 2009)

that looks sick man, nice job. my buddy has an S4 as well, I'm gonna show this to him.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

cannan said:


> Great install, I like how the amps are mounted on the rear deck.
> 
> Out of curiosity what screws did you use to secure the mdf rings to the door panel?


I used 2" #8 pan head screws. The #8 thread, while not metric, seemed to match the torx bolts that mounted the original speaker baskets. In the photo there are washers, but those aren't necessary.

Meanwhile, I think I'm going to order some new torx bolts to mount the amplifiers, just to make them harder to steal.


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## jivitup (Nov 2, 2009)

How is the weight comparison to a same size piece of 3/4 mdf vs 1/4 abs? You know how sometimes mdf splits if you drill too close to an edge...does abs have the same issue?


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

jivitup said:


> How is the weight comparison to a same size piece of 3/4 mdf vs 1/4 abs? You know how sometimes mdf splits if you drill too close to an edge...does abs have the same issue?


Not sure about the weight difference, although I did weigh the ABS plastic at about 1 lb, but the difference is probably irrelevant. Especially in a car that already weighs almost 2 tons and has 302 lb-ft of torque. The main reason I used ABS over MDF was to keep it low profile.

Drilling toward the edge would be less of an issue with ABS, I can't imagine it splitting. It would just push outward at the edge of the hole. I'm sure you can get closer to the edge than you can with MDF. 

Again, if I were to redo this I would use 1/4" ABS minimum.


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## DonH (Jun 25, 2009)

so far GREAT WORK!


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## wdemetrius1 (Aug 16, 2007)

I agree with what everyone else has said, very nice install.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Notice how the power wires disappear right into the carpet. I did that with the help of these down-turned spade connectors that help avoid big wire loops.










Once I find room for some more amp channels, I'd like to take advantage of the rear doors. I'm thinking use them for delayed ambient rear fill, or maybe full range for passengers.

Or, maybe midbass from about 80-320hz, since that range should not be locatable fore and aft. I have a ton of clearance back there, so I can pretty much use anything I want. Anyone have suggestions?










I found some 1" thick adhesive foam that I think I got from McMaster-Carr a few years ago, so I'm going to use it as the front seal for the speakers. The door panels will compress them.



















And in the meantime while I have no speakers in the back, I'm leaving the scrap piece in the hole as a temporary sound blocker.










What sucks about these doors though, is the speaker grills, which are a funny shape and aren't really open all the way. Plus the grill material is pretty opaque. I'd like to make something custom but I don't have the skill or courage to hack them up.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Can you tell me about the foam you used? I got some from a seller on
ebay, its VERY high quality but I fear I wont have enough. Can you 
put some in a glass and see if it will soak up any water, or do you know
if it will? I'm going to need some that wont soak up any, like the other
stuff I have. Also, if your going to use it like above with a speaker in
it I would be a bit careful if it does soak in any water. I don't like to
state the obvious to people, just trying to help; if you didn't already
know.

Cheers, and I do enjoy your build....


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

This stuff is open cell, and definitely absorbs water. It's sealed from the inside of the door though, and I don't expect it to get wet. It's probably not the best thing for the purpose but I had it laying around.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Ludemandan said:


> The Symbilink cables (balanced inputs, for those who are unfamiliar) went up through the passenger pillars and above the headliner. There is no easy way to stuff them under the carpet, and I didn't have the time or space to remove the front seats and carpeting. This was easier.


Nice install, so far. I particularly like the amp rack! Are you sure your Symbilink cables clear the side curtain air bags?


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

CA4944 said:


> Nice install, so far. I particularly like the amp rack! Are you sure your Symbilink cables clear the side curtain air bags?


They do cross in front of the airbags once or twice. For the most part they avoid the airbags or are stuffed into the headliner. A couple people on the Audi forum gave me **** for not taking up the seats and carpet. I think when the day comes that I don't have to share a garage, I'll go back and put them underneath. 

Okay, I took some shots from the rear. 



















And, um, oh yeah... exposed wiring!  :shocked2: :dizzy: :uhoh: :freak: :anxious: Making a carpeted cover for this gap is high on my list.










I really lucked out on the dimensions of these amps, it's like they were designed to fit this installation. The back just clears the cargo handles.


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## astrochex (Aug 7, 2009)

subscribed. nice clean install. the commentary is also excellent!


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## jivitup (Nov 2, 2009)

Thats nice how it ended up being a perfect fit for the amps.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Ludemandan said:


> A couple people on the Audi forum gave me **** for not taking up the seats and carpet. I think when the day comes that I don't have to share a garage, I'll go back and put them underneath.


The carpet in these cars is the tightest I've ever encountered in a car. I ended up sending signal wires through the centre console, fished under the carpet. It was a tight squeeze. Also, it seemed as though you had to take the spare tire out to do anything!


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## Chayse (Nov 23, 2010)

How does this sound with 50 watts to each tweeter and mid? I just picked up a 650.6 to hopefully run my whole system. Plan to run 50 watts to each HAT L1 Pro and each HAT L6 and then bridge the 5/6 channels to run an SI BM MKIII. Is it loud enough, or, do you think you need more power? If so, where, mids?

Thanks

Fred


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Right now there's a little complication where I'm getting some warranty work done to the car, and I have to keep my stock head unit in the dash for a while so the warranty inspector can't use a H/U replacement to wiggle out of the liability. Sounds ridiculous, I know. Once my ABS module arrives from Germany and gets replaced, then I can throw the Eclipse deck in there and start tuning. I'll report back on how it sounds.


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## jivitup (Nov 2, 2009)

Chayse said:


> How does this sound with 50 watts to each tweeter and mid? I just picked up a 650.6 to hopefully run my whole system. Plan to run 50 watts to each HAT L1 Pro and each HAT L6 and then bridge the 5/6 channels to run an SI BM MKIII. Is it loud enough, or, do you think you need more power? If so, where, mids?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Fred


I think the mids will be weak. Maybe get another amp for the sub


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Ludemandan said:


> Right now there's a little complication where I'm getting some warranty work done to the car, and I have to keep my stock head unit in the dash for a while so the warranty inspector can't use a H/U replacement to wiggle out of the liability. Sounds ridiculous, I know. Once my ABS module arrives from Germany and gets replaced, then I can throw the Eclipse deck in there and start tuning. I'll report back on how it sounds.


I'm not sure if I mentioned this in your thread, or not, but the factory deck (at least, the RNS-E) is actually a pretty clean source if you ground the "BOSE" pin in the harness. Output is flat, the transport is pretty good, and there are line-level outs right in the harness to which you can graft RCAs. I ran mine into an EQ with 7V output and never looked back.


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## southpawskater (Feb 17, 2010)

That looks great I love the amprack!


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

CA4944 said:


> I'm not sure if I mentioned this in your thread, or not, but the factory deck (at least, the RNS-E) is actually a pretty clean source if you ground the "BOSE" pin in the harness. Output is flat, the transport is pretty good, and there are line-level outs right in the harness to which you can graft RCAs. I ran mine into an EQ with 7V output and never looked back.


That's interesting, and it would have a nice factory look, but those things command a pretty penny. Not sure I can justify the cost. Plus, I like that my dash doesn't have a big screen in the middle.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

I couldn't stand the wire gap in the trunk anymore, so I made a carpeted plug for it. Started out with a piece of MDF and measured the gap along various points, then transferred the measurements onto the piece and cut it with a jigsaw.










Wrapped it in carpet with spray adhesive.










And installed as a press fit. I was planning to get underneath it with some self-tapping screws, but there's no need, because it's kinda wedged in place. 

Look ma, no wire mess!










I wish I'd had the foresight to do this when I was building the amp rack, because that 2-piece split really bothers me. But it would be a royal pain in the ass to go back and redo it, so this is how it will remain. 

Dan


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

Very nice!

Subscribed!


D.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Maybe I missed it, but did you mention anything about treating the raw MDF speaker rings so that they don't swell up. The biggest problem when that happens is that it could warp the basket of the speaker in the process.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/60325-post13.html


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

That's a good point, you're the second person who has brought that up. I should go in there and at least seal it with glue or something.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Ludemandan said:


> That's a good point, you're the second person who has brought that up. I should go in there and at least seal it with glue or something.


Since it's up already and you've used silicon on the front, maybe a thin layer of the same silicon on any exposed area with work. Protecting MDF can by difficult since it absorbs whatever is spray on it if it's too thin, in effect resulting in what you are trying to prevent (just not to as a severe degree). But something thick and water tight like silicon should do a pretty good job.


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## Shod (Oct 6, 2008)

Just a little FYI didn't know if you knew this, but there is a act against dealers called the magnuson-moss warranty act that states the dealer cannot refuse to do warrenty work on the car just because you decided to enhance your audio system.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Shod said:


> Just a little FYI didn't know if you knew this, but there is a act against dealers called the magnuson-moss warranty act that states the dealer cannot refuse to do warrenty work on the car just because you decided to enhance your audio system.


That's interesting. However, I'm under an extended warranty, not a dealer warranty, so I don't know if that applies.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Ludemandan said:


> That's interesting. However, I'm under an extended warranty, not a dealer warranty, so I don't know if that applies.


Just be nice to them, they won't F you over knowing you will go tell 1000 people about their nit picking.


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## Jaredturp (Apr 30, 2010)

Such a nice, clean build. I would love to be able to do something similar in my own car. Keep up the good work!


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

New update. I got all the warranty stuff done and now it's time to install the visible stuff. Last night I tore into the center console to put in the USB and AUX jacks.

This Clarion USB extension cable will reach just about anywhere and installs in a 3/4" hole. 

Amazingly, the structure under the felt lined pocket under the armrest has a 3/4" hole.










I took a piece of ABS plastic and drilled holes for the USB and RCA chassis jacks, plus some screw holes to hold it down.










I was going to line it with felt but I never got any. Anyway, here is the reassembled center console with armrest, USB drive and RCA jacks. Bass knob may go here too.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

And with the deck installed.










Meanwhile, I've stockpiled a couple of Zapco I-force amps for sub and midbass duty. Soon I will free up some power to properly drive those HATs in the front.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

*Initial listening impressions*

Last week I did a 900 mile drive, and I had to get the stereo working in time. I hooked up the deck and did some tuning. The first, most obvious thing was that the sub did not integrate. I kept turning it down until it was almost out of the picture. So the night before I left I took a gamble and did a quick fix. 

I have a pair of Silver Flute woofers, the ones that are $30 each on Madisound and are supposed to be great for the money. 










I was going to experiment with them in front but for the trip I put them in the back doors for bass duty. I figured putting them in the cabin would help smooth out and integrate the bass.

I did not run new speaker wires into the rear doors. Too difficult. Instead I tapped into the Bose wiring, which is identifiable by a twisted pair. These wires terminate in the trunk. Thank you, Bose. I very carefully cut the cloth tape around the wire bundle and then cut the wires behind the speaker hole.










And mounted with double layer rings. 










Okay, now for the listening impressions. 

First, the rear door woofers worked surprisingly well. They don't extend down to the low notes, but they integrated better with the stage and provided satisfactory bass/midbass for the drive.

Now for the HATs. And this part is interesting. Here is the gap I arrived at between my tweeters and mids:
Tweeters, high pass: 8khz, 12 dB/octave
Mids low pass: 800 hz, 6 db/octave

That's a 3 octave gap! And I have 1.25 kHz turned way down on the EQ. If I bring the gap any closer, the vocals start to get nasty and hurt my ears. With this setup, there is no apparent loss in midrange information, it plays right on up from bottom to top. I visited the house of another audiophile I know and showed him the setup. We played around with crossover slopes and I wasn't tripping, it really does work set this way. He was just as surprised as me. Now maybe the deck really is funky, and I would get different results with different equipment. But for now, I'm a big believer in a crossover gap in the midrange.

After I got home, I took an ED 11kv2 in a sealed box I have sitting around and stuck it in the trunk. Still looking for a decent solution for bass. Initial impression is, overpowering, and once again, doesn't integrate that well. I will post back when I find a way to make something work.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Where is the woofer in the trunk? Did you try throwing a couple of big bags of clothes in the trunk with it to cut down on volume back there?


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

It's side-mounted. You can see it in the first few posts. However, I tried using a sealed box facing backward (which I have laying around) and it didn't do a whole lot better. I think there's going to be a lot of tuning ahead to get a subwoofer to blend with the stage.

Anyway... The Connects2 faceplate and Eclipse deck aren't working out as well as I'd hoped. The faceplate looks nice but doesn't fit that great, and doesn't latch on one side. Also it pushes up against the cupholder in the dash, which is now sticky going in and out. I'm plotting a return to the factory head unit, but with all the signal processing and outboard connectivity that the Eclipse deck has. 

Here is how I plan to add crossovers, EQ, time alignment, etc. to the factory unit. This little circuit board is the most AWESOME piece of consumer electronics I have discovered in a long time. It has been discussed already on DIYMA but I'm going to discuss it again because every audiophile/DIY project guy/gal should know about it:

MiniDSP

Discussion thread with explanation:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-product-reviews/80665-minidsp-excellent-alternative.html

And photo:










This is a 3"x3" circuit board with two RCA inputs and four outputs that will do all the hi-fi processing you could want. You buy the firmware you want for $10 and flash it, then adjust the settings with your computer via a USB interface. This means you can put it directly behind your stock head unit in the RCA signal path, have a USB wire sitting in your glove box, and plug your computer in whenever you want to make adjustments. And it's only $100. You could spend ten times that much on a bunch of outboard processors that take up 20 times as much space and do almost as much.

I bought two of them, and mounted one in my 12V bench system to experiment with. Here is a pic from yesterday. It is set up in my garage as an independent parametric EQ, active crossover, level adjust, time delay, and phase inversion controller for each channel. It also shows real-time input levels so you can adjust the input gain to match your source device.










They even have a delayed left-minus-right rear fill software! I'm very excited to see what I can accomplish with these bad boys.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

Great idea! What kind of output voltage do the MiniDSPs give you?


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

IIRC, when I read the other thread, it was something like 2v.

Jay


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Yep 2V. But I have line drivers in my Symbilink converters so it'll be 8V going into the amps.


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## TexZen (Jul 4, 2010)

Great & clean install. Damn' near the same gear I'm going to have in my Camaro. It's a shame that the 7200MkII doesn't seem to be working out for you. I'll definitely be interested in hearing how the MiniDSP setup works for you.

For simplicities sake, I wish I could just pop my HAT L1Pros into the door sails where the stock tweeters are, alas...no dice.


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## ckasinski (Jun 23, 2010)

Hey I was just wondering where the build is at? Also, where in the Bay Area are you? I'm down in San Jose.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm in San Mateo. The build is happening in my garage.


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## ghost0217 (Jan 27, 2011)

Excellent work. I hope you get it all sounding how you want, cause it too clean for you not to like how it sounds.

Ghost


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## h1-vltg (Mar 18, 2010)

Just read through this thread. I can hardly wait for it to warm up so I can start my build. (I don't have a garage anymore...well one that I could pull a car into at least)

I hope mine turns out as clean as yours. Really nice work!!!


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## KENNEY (Feb 23, 2011)

Very nice build sir. Im interested to find out what sub you end up going with. Which subs are on your list as of now? You might want to try the idqv2? they were very easy for me to integrate in a trunk car to the front stage, I'd vote for the Morel subs also.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

KENNEY said:


> Very nice build sir. Im interested to find out what sub you end up going with. Which subs are on your list as of now? You might want to try the idqv2? they were very easy for me to integrate in a trunk car to the front stage, I'd vote for the Morel subs also.


I bought an IDQ12, and it will go in a fiberglass box on the opposite side of the trunk, where there is room for 1 CF. I already sold the old box and sub. I'm going to redo the whole system basically, except for the front stage. I'm switching to a different pair of Zapco Reference amps, so my 360.4 and 350.2 are for sale. Also, since I'm a compulsive perfectionist I'm going to build a new amp rack using MDF so it's flatter, and make it all one piece. The original amp rack and carpeted spacer will be available after I use them as a template to make the new one.


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## jrs1006 (Sep 19, 2010)

Ludemandan said:


> I'm in San Mateo. The build is happening in my garage.


Thant is a sick install. I am subscribed. I live in San Jose so would love to hear it sometime and see the finished work on the MiniDSP's.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

me too, bring it back by after you are done, i wanna check those dsps out


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Great install! Where all did you lay MLV in the car? I'm kind of trying to get maximum results with minimum application of the stuff. I was thinking all four doors (WRX hatchback) and the hatchback/wheel well area in the back. From what you wrote it seems like that is the route you went. Good results?


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## kazlx (Feb 17, 2011)

Very nice install in one of my favorite cars. Will definitely be bookmarking this thread since I'm shopping for an Audi.


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## m3gunner (Aug 6, 2008)

Is it time for a Bay Area Meet and Greet? 

I could bring my Audi (but it ain't up to these standards...)


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

I only installed MLV in the doors. It got a little quieter, nothing drastic. I'm sure it would make a difference on the floor but I didn't get that far. 

I have this hare-brained idea to incorporate active noise cancellation. Stay tuned for that in like a year or something if I ever figure it out.

Thanks M3 - I'd be down to have a local SQ meet (at Bing's? hint hint) but there's a second install and a lot of tuning ahead first!


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Here's the for sale thread with some of my original equipment. 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...-more-ludemandans-garage-cleaning-thread.html

I'm making decent progress with the new MDF amp rack, and I am also making a dimensioned drawing with hole locations, which I will post so you can DIY. A couple of people have asked me about this.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

m3gunner said:


> Is it time for a Bay Area Meet and Greet?
> 
> I could bring my Audi (but it ain't up to these standards...)


i think its time to do another meet in a few months when it warms up a bit.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Fedex dropped by today! Here's the sub box from Los Labs. It's fiberglass inside a molded plastic shell with an MDF baffle, and overall it's pretty thin, maybe 1/4" wall thickness, or even less. It looks great, and it's light, but I might slap a layer of deadening on the outside. 











IDQ12 fits perfectly in the custom cut hole.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Weekend progress photo!


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## m0sdef (Nov 16, 2010)

This is sick build so far Ludemandan

A Bay Area meet and great would be awesome! As a noob i'd love to hear and see everyones setups!


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## h1-vltg (Mar 18, 2010)

Ludemandan said:


> Weekend progress photo!



*NICE!!!*


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Holy crap that's a clean sub setup! I wish I had an enclosed pocket like that in my car! How's that sub sounding (and how much power to it)?


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Very nice sub integration. Interested as well to hear your impressions of the HAT drivers with more tuning and more power. Beautiful car!


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

Nice install in the B6. After dealing with my B5, anyone that can install a competitive system in an Audi/VW car gets major Kudos.


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## jackp311 (Jun 7, 2010)

Man! I am loving this build. I wish I had some dough to throw at my S4. Still rocking the bose setup.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

ecbmxer said:


> Holy crap that's a clean sub setup! I wish I had an enclosed pocket like that in my car! How's that sub sounding (and how much power to it)?


Can't say how the sub sounds until all these wires hanging in the trunk get connected to something. It will be getting 500 watts of Zapco Reference power.










The amp rack is built and carpeted. Once I install it and verify that it fits, I will post dimensioned plans with instructions.


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## Drizzy (Dec 1, 2010)

Where are you in the Bay Area? I need to hear this when it's done! lol i'm located in Fremont. Very nice build.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

I bought a Massive Audio amp from DAT for the tweeters. A bit overkill at 120W per channel, but that's okay, and it fits perfectly where I need it to go. It arrived yesterday evening, and it was buried in the car and out of sight by the time I went to bed. Sort of too bad, because it's good looking. 










Put it to the bench test before burying it in the car. It did a quick protect delay before it powered up, and then it rocked a pair of small 8 ohm bookshelf speakers.










There's a hollow space next to the trunk floor under each side panel. On the left side, it's underneath where my sub box goes. On the right side, that's where the Nanoblock goes! 

Put it down with some self-tapping screws and it seems to be secure. Put a layer of MLV in front of the power and speaker wires to protect it from the metal pinch on the chassis. The only flaw with this location is that getting to the gain adjustment will require taking things apart again. :worried: I'll set it kind of high and then attenuate it with the DSP.


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

Install is looking good, and thanks for trying the Massive NX2 amp.


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## ilovebass (Jun 7, 2008)

awesome..I have an audi too..b7 to be exact and am considering the nx2 to power the ck6 and ditch out the nine.4 How big is that spot behind the panels ..I was considering putting an extra battery there.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

ilovebass said:


> awesome..I have an audi too..b7 to be exact and am considering the nx2 to power the ck6 and ditch out the nine.4 How big is that spot behind the panels ..I was considering putting an extra battery there.


It's not much bigger than the footprint of the Nx2, and maybe 4-5 inches deep. You would have to use a really small battery, like a motorcycle battery. It would probably be a good idea to improve the ventilation to the outside as well.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

And now with plans... here's how to build an amp rack for a B6 chassis Audi. I'm sure it's very close if not the same in a B7. 

A major flaw with my first rack was that it wasn't serviceable without removing the rear deck, which involves removing D-pillars, oh-**** handles, etc. The new design can be completely removed and reinstalled without removing the rear deck or any other panels. You will need to remove the rear deck once to install it the first time, but if you're clever at running wires even that is probably avoidable. You might even be able do it without ever folding down the seats. The trick is using the bolt holes for the child seat/racing harness/child racing harness anchors that are under the plastic covers in the rear deck. The function of these hooks will be preserved. 

I used 3/4" MDF. I wouldn't use anything thinner unless it's metal, and for even better strength use a 3/4" HDPE plastic cutting board. 










The three holes running across the middle correspond to the rear deck anchor points. The rack is suspended only in the middle, but it will stay in place by tightening up against the chassis on the front and back edges. Remove the stock M8-1.25 short bolts and replace them with M8-1.25 x 90mm bolts. They are available at OSH or probably HD and require 13mm tools. Also buy several washers and nuts, including three Nylock nuts. 










Pull off the plastic covers and replace the stock bolts with the 90mm. While you're at it, these make good grounding points for your amps. Use a grounding ring with a 3/8" opening, and it will be a press fit onto the mounting post when you tighten it down. Sand the metal first of course. Since these grounding points are under the removable covers they will always be easily accessible. 










Below view. Leave out the nut in the photo, it is not necessary and would only make things difficult later. 










Build the amp rack. Here is where I reveal the ugliness underneath, with more holes and metal things than necessary due to me figuring this out as I went along. However, the little metal things in a square pattern are T-nuts for the amp mounting points. If you use MDF I HIGHLY RECOMMEND you use T-nuts so you aren't relying on the MDF to hold a thread against the weight of your amps! 










Place your amps, find the mounting holes and all wire holes, and drill them out. Install T-nuts, drill out the holes for the M8 bolts, then take a flat spade bit and bore out at least a 1" diameter countersink with a flat bottom. The countersink diameter should correspond to the largest washer you can find (within reason). The large washer distributes the load. Amps are heavy and you don't want the amp rack hanging on the surface area of three nuts. The washers will be less likely to pull through the MDF. 

Apply carpet using the Stinger spray adhesive mentioned previously. Do this _after_ all holes are drilled. Drilling through carpet can cause it to catch on the drill bit and twist around. 










Pull wires through the holes and mount up against the rear deck. The tension along the mid line of the board will keep the rack tight against the chassis and make it stable and secure. 










Notice how the bolts are poking out in the above photo. It is necessary to start this way because it's almost impossible to push the rack up tight enough to use shorter bolts. Fix this by first installing it with the bolts too long, then remove one, and space it upward at the top with 10mm or whatever spacing is appropriate to make it recessed in the countersink. With the amp rack secured, it will be easy to do this one by one. 

Flush bolt with Nylock nut.










All bolts spaced upward and recessed in the countersink.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Mount your amps using the pre-installed T-nuts. 










I've ditched the Zapco 360.4 and 350.2, and replaced them with a 1000.4 and a 500.1, for the most power I can fit across 38 1/2 inches. 150 watts per channel to each of four midranges, and 500 watts to the sub. 










And connect wires. 











Having a solid board is WAY more satisfying than using a flexible plastic board. I don't know if it comes through in the photos but this time it's straighter, cleaner and stronger. And it's serviceable!


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## strong*I*bumpin (Oct 3, 2005)

Easy access & stealth,nicely done.


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## CA4944 (May 2, 2009)

VERY nicely done. I think it's time that I finally ditch the seat back mounting I'm using for mine and do this!


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## vwtoby (Oct 28, 2005)

Nice install, question. Has anyone who has run this type of amp rack (bolted to underside of rear deck) ever introduced a ground loop/noise issue? I installed a MDF rack like this and instantly got a whine, there is no metal from the amps touching the rear deck (separated by wood). All i can think of is that its "to" close to the metal? but that doesnt make much sense, or does it? Any ideas on why it introduces noise?

cheers


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

vwtoby said:


> Nice install, question. Has anyone who has run this type of amp rack (bolted to underside of rear deck) ever introduced a ground loop/noise issue? I installed a MDF rack like this and instantly got a whine, there is no metal from the amps touching the rear deck (separated by wood). All i can think of is that its "to" close to the metal? but that doesnt make much sense, or does it? Any ideas on why it introduces noise?
> 
> cheers


Should be unrelated. The amp chassis is grounded internally, so if anything you would eliminate that problem by running a jumper from amp to ground. But better yet, just reinforce your primary ground connection.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Very nice and clean, with a factory look...thanks for sharing the pics


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## memphiskane (Mar 9, 2011)

This is one of the best Audi's I have seen. Used to have an A4 and my install didn't even come close. I think i might have to steal some of your ideas for my 300.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Oh and how can I forget - Zapco bass knob in the center console.


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## tlow98 (Oct 8, 2009)

the only way this would look cleaner is if you vaccumed your trunk 

incredibly nice job here


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## Chayse (Nov 23, 2010)

Very Clean. I like it.


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## ilovebass (Jun 7, 2008)

looks awesome..what happened to the massive amp? I might have to change my amps from the side of the trunk to your setup! I hope my rear deck is the same as yours!


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

ilovebass said:


> I might have to change my amps from the side of the trunk to your setup!


It is under the right side trunk panel, below the cubbyhole that normally has a net. There's a hollow space under there. The disadvantage is that it's a PITA to get to, especially since I have to remove the amp rack to pull back the side panel. Also it's funny that I'm using a tweeter amp with unbalanced inputs because most noise is in the high frequencies.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

I hooked up a stack three miniDSPs. The signal path goes like this:

Head unit front line level output -> MiniDSP 1
MiniDSP 1 -> Tweeters and MiniDSP2
MiniDSP 2 -> Front mids and subwoofer
Head unit rear line level output -> MiniDSP 3
MiniDSP 3 -> Rear speakers with L-R delayed rear fill plug-in










I stuffed them up above/behind the glove compartment. There is an empty space back there about the size of a brick. I'm sure by the time I am done with this car there will be no hidden empty spaces anywhere, they will all be buzzing with electrical crap.



















I hooked it all up and turned it on, and waited for the moment of truth... and it didn't go so well. There is a noticeable noise floor from the tweeters with the car off. With the engine running it's a _whole_ different story... There's a huge din of buzzing and ticking and whining, both RPM related and not. It's like the car's whole internal talk is being broadcast through the speakers. And there's a lot of talk going on in an S4. If I could understand binary I would be probably able to tell how much fuel the ECU is telling the injectors to send, how rich my exhaust smells at startup, etc. 

Also, there was a massive thump on turn-off. I fixed that by hooking up a turn-off delay on the miniDSPs with a capacitor and a diode, but it didn't help the noise problem, or the occasional turn-on thump.

Also, the rear fill plug-in doesn't work. It produces no signal. I took it out and tried it on the test bench, where I know everything works, and again, no output from that plug-in. I e-mailed miniDSP and they're examining the problem.

I've spent a couple evenings and mornings before work trying to research and fix the noise problem. I re-grounded the DSPs to no avail. I found a paper on power supply noise isolation and I intend to read and understand it, but it makes proper noise isolation with no ill effects seem kind of complicated. 

This morning I removed the DSPs and hooked up the head unit outputs directly to the amps. No noise, not even when the car is running! But no crossing over or processing either, and only four channels available. But I can listen to talk radio and test all the channels for noise, which is enough to conclude that the DSPs are the source of the noise problem. I'm sure it's possible to defeat the noise with a separate switching power supply and some other stuff, but I want to get my system going before I bone up on electrical engineering. So, I'm going to pick up a real signal processor, either a Zapco DSP6 or an Audison BitOne.1. 

Each has pros and cons. The DSP6 will not fit up front, so I'd have to create a space in back for it, which would require more fab. Also it only has 6 channels and I'm running 7. The Audison has 8 channels and I think I could make a space for it in the glove box, but it has discrete pre-selected crossover points, a graphic EQ, and is known for reliability problems. So it may come down to price. Feel free to chime in if you have an opinion about one processor or the other.

I'm not saying I'm not hardcore enough to do the research and DIY a solution to the DSP noise problem, I just want to have my car stereo running while I do it. Neither of the big processors can do L-R delayed rear fill, so I'll have to hook up a DSP for that anyway. It's a non-essential component and I will be able to take all the time I need.


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## MaXius (Dec 18, 2009)

Just for fun, have you tried a couple of things:

External power supply for the MiniDSP (ie not the car)
External sound source for the MiniDSP (iPod?)
Both at the same time

Change positioning of the MiniDSP's (it might be getting noise from other electronics, seeing as it's not shielded?)

It'd be interesting to find if that makes any differences..


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

MaXius said:


> Just for fun, have you tried a couple of things:
> 
> External power supply for the MiniDSP (ie not the car)
> External sound source for the MiniDSP (iPod?)
> ...


Those are both interesting ideas that I could try pretty easily. But play time is at a premium these days...


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Well, this morning I got up early again and did some troubleshooting before work. I put a miniDSP back in the car sending a signal to the tweeters and a full range to the mids. But this time, I powered it from a 9V battery. No noise! I drove to work with full range music and no noise for the first time in quite a while. So now I have to figure out how to isolate noise from the car's power supply.


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## 4ofakind (Jan 22, 2010)

Its great you got rid of the noise. When you go to install it back in the car could you clearly document how you did it? I plan to get two Mini DSPs for my Car PC and the noise problem people have been reporting has me spooked.

Mal


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Well, I can't get rid of the noise from the miniDSPs no matter what I do. I could go study electrical engineering and design and build a noise rejection circuit, but that would take more time than I want to spend before getting my system up and running and tuned. Therefore, I admit defeat and I'll have to buy a proper signal processor, either a BitOne.1 or a DSP6. (This doesn't rule out me studying electrical engineering anyway).


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## matthewo (Jan 31, 2008)

let me know how you like the nx2 on your tweeters, i have to buy another amp to go full 3 way active, and i am between getting a nx2 for my tweeters, or letting my lrx5.1k do the tweeters and getting an nx4 for my midbasses and bridge it to 400watts per midbass woohoo headroom


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Yep, woohoo headroom is right. From the listening I've done with the miniDSP powered with a 9V battery, I can say the Nanoblock is not the source of noise. I like the Nano amp so far, it's physically nice and solid and I wouldn't hesitate to use them for a full system if I weren't running all Zapco.


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## MaXius (Dec 18, 2009)

I don't suppose you could whack a balun on the power wires and magically make the noise go away?

Also, where are you pulling the earth wire from for the MiniDSP's? Is it the same as the head unit? (Or are you introducing a ground loop issue)


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

A balun is a transformer, it would unground it but I don't think it would help clean up the power supply. I just went out and bought a Peripheral power wire noise filter, complete with shunt to ground, and it's still noisy. 

Plan of attack: Audison BitOne!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

bit-one to _solve_ a noise problem  now that would be have been a chuckle a year ago


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## anthonyott99 (Mar 21, 2011)

Very, Very clean Setup dude !! Impressed with your Work !!!


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## Motown (Mar 12, 2011)

This is CLEAN! Anxious to hear how the Audi treats the Audi.


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## matthewo (Jan 31, 2008)

If you keep working g on the mini dsp. Meanwell make budget dc-dc power supplies. They work well at cleaning up the signal, I used on when installing a wdtv live in my car and had video lines. It will take 11-16 volts and output a constant 12.05 volts. They have different models for voltage and amperage. Jameco sells them


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

I just placed a Parts Express order and included a DC-DC USB charger in that order. However, now I have a BitOne on the way so the miniDSP project is on the back burner.

Also, it's worth mentioning that I got the L-R rear fill plug-in to work on the bench, I just had to download the latest version of the software.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Bad news on the deadening front. I've been getting some glue on the outside of the right window glass when I roll it up. I tore it apart this morning and the MLV was unstuck from the Velcro and hanging down. 

Note, this is NOT how Don recommends installing it. We've had a wet winter here in the Bay Area, and water has gotten in between the MLV and the outer door skin. If you install it behind your door card like Don recommends, it should stay dry and stay put. 










Also, my MDF rings are getting wet. Time to think about making a new set out of plastic I guess.


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

Ludemandan said:


> I just placed a Parts Express order and included a DC-DC USB charger in that order. However, now I have a BitOne on the way so the miniDSP project is on the back burner.
> 
> Also, it's worth mentioning that I got the L-R rear fill plug-in to work on the bench, I just had to download the latest version of the software.


I really want the mini with L-R for rear fill. Here's hoping you eliminate noise and I can order mine


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Wet speaker rings. :surprised: I'll have to make some new ones out of plastic.


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## flipside1212 (Oct 21, 2008)

nice build


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## matthewo (Jan 31, 2008)

Yeah, mdf isn't going to last long getting wet

I had my untreated plywood adapters rot out after 2 years. I went with hdpe/cutting board/starboard material.

The stuff is great, dense, easy to work with. I siliconed and screws 2 peices together to get the width. And the stuff lasts forever. It's plastic

Btw don't be suprised, every car I have had water seems to run right to the bottom of the speaker ring and sit there, until it drys up, or is soaked up. I put extra silicone in that area and tried to modifly the door panel a bit to runoff extra water and keep it fr pooling there


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Yep, that is exactly what I have in mind. But I'm also thinking about trying small sealed chambers.


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## langlowe (Oct 11, 2010)

Very nice. 

Love the S4. That is one bad Audi.

Buddy of mine has one and it is wicked fast.


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## newsqguy (Apr 16, 2008)

Where's the water coming in from?


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## matthewo (Jan 31, 2008)

In between window and seal. All doors get wet on the inside that what vapor barriers are for


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## newsqguy (Apr 16, 2008)

Yea I figured as much..... Was hoping for a tighter seal I guess


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Ludemandan said:


> Wet speaker rings. :surprised: I'll have to make some new ones out of plastic.


Could dry them out and cover with resin. That's what I'll probably do.


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## CGlines (Sep 13, 2010)

Enjoyed reading through your build thread. Very clean install. Interested to hear what your impressions are once you get the Audison installed


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## odj23 (Jul 13, 2010)

I'm really liking this build, your attention to detail, and your willingness to tinker.




Ludemandan said:


> One very important point about car audio installation is that Racer 5 actually tastes better when you pour it into a glass. The better the glass, the better it tastes. I think it just needs to breathe a little.


If you're a fan of the Racer5, try Lagunitas New Dogtown Pale Ale, Caldera IPA, Rogue Brutal IPA, Lazy Boy IPA, and HUB Hopworks IPA. They're all somewhat similar and VERY tasty


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## TexZen (Jul 4, 2010)

odj23 said:


> I'm really liking this build, your attention to detail, and your willingness to tinker.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anything by Rogue is damn tasty! :beerchug:


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Yep, I'm always trying different microbrews and I'm always coming back to the Racer 5. But I'll make sure to dabble into your list!

I tore into the doors again and swapped around some speaker positions and formed some new opinions. Short story is, I'm not too impressed with the Hybrid L6 mids. A more lengthy review will follow when I'm not at work.


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

Ludemandan said:


> Yep, I'm always trying different microbrews and I'm always coming back to the Racer 5. But I'll make sure to dabble into your list!
> 
> I tore into the doors again and swapped around some speaker positions and formed some new opinions. Short story is, I'm not too impressed with the *Hybrid L6 mids*. A more lengthy review will follow when I'm not at work.



I have heard that before, seems them are more suited for midrange..

Talk to Scott maybe he has an idea.


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

odj23 said:


> I'm really liking this build, your attention to detail, and your willingness to tinker.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and you like a little hoppier, there's Coronado Islander IPA, Boulder Mojo Risin' Double IPA, Founders Double Trouble IPA, Victory Hop Wallop Ale, Southern Tier Double IPA, Stone Ruination IPA, Sly Fox 113 IPA. I have a 6 pack of Great Lakes Commodore Perry IPA in my fridge, I'll know tonight how that one goes down.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I'm very curious about your review of the L6 drivers. I have been extremely impressed with their midbass capabilities playing a bandpass in a 3 way set up.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Do you have them installed in the doors?


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Yesterday I cut some new speaker rings out of HDPE plastic. HDPE is a food-grade plastic meant for cutting boards. Think of it like a solid block of oil. Nothing will stick to it, including glue (there is a special glue for the purpose that has to be applied with a torch). It even moved around a little under the bar clamps when I was cutting it. I will seal them with DAP silicone like I always do, but retention to the door will be 100% mechanical. 










These are cut to fit the midbass I am planning to use for the next minor overhaul of my system as I search for the perfect sound.

Dan


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

BTW I sold the Eclipse HU long ago and put the stock Symphony II back in. It's a little clunky but I want to make it work. Here's a photo so the photo-only followers can keep up.










Also, yesterday I measured the frequency response of the above unit. The measurement hardware was like so:

Symphony II RCA-level output -> M-Audio Audiobuddy mic preamp -> Laptop running REW

Notice this does not use a microphone, it is HU direct to input. Here is the resulting FR graph that I put together in Excel.










I used 0dB 1/3 octave test tones burned to a CD, played each one individually, and wrote down the measured output on a piece of paper. All four channels appear to measure the same. This was at about 1/3 volume. I have not taken the time to see if the response changes with the volume level. What is clear is that the bass is boosted quite a bit. A +3 dB boost represents a doubling in power.

I'm just starting to learn how to use my preamp and REW, so I may have some more findings as I figure out what I can do.


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## strong*I*bumpin (Oct 3, 2005)

Alot more ppl are trying to stay stock(looking)if possible,would be interesting to see how it turns out.Atleast u dont have a cassette player


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## newsqguy (Apr 16, 2008)

yes i'm using my stock rnse HU in my audi. Lude what do you suggest for deading our doors? no mlv inside or outer skin? whats next in the attempt?


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Ludemandan said:


> Yesterday I cut some new speaker rings out of HDPE plastic. HDPE is a food-grade plastic meant for cutting boards.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This stuff is pretty much Starboard.
Marine Grade HDPE (Seaboard

You could prolly use CCF with better results for gasket or cork. over DAP


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

strong*I*bumpin said:


> Atleast u dont have a cassette player


Oh, but I do!



newsqguy said:


> yes i'm using my stock rnse HU in my audi. Lude what do you suggest for deading our doors? no mlv inside or outer skin? whats next in the attempt?


Don at SDS said the Amazon "High Strength" Velcro isn't the same as the product he sells by the same name. Granted, the logo on his is red and the logo on the Amazon product is blue. :shrug: Also, he said attach the CCF side outward instead of the MLV side and it will stick better. So maybe I'll try again when I'm not feeling poor. Right now all I can afford is necessities, like midbass drivers to experiment with.



> You could prolly use CCF with better results for gasket or cork. over DAP


Got it. I put two scraps of plastic together with some DAP and it's just not drying. I guess it dries on MDF because there's some airflow. I'll use CCF instead.


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## newsqguy (Apr 16, 2008)

Ludemandan said:


> Don at SDS said the Amazon "High Strength" Velcro isn't the same as the product he sells by the same name. Granted, the logo on his is red and the logo on the Amazon product is blue. :shrug: Also, he said attach the CCF side outward instead of the MLV side and it will stick better. So maybe I'll try again when I'm not feeling poor. Right now all I can afford is necessities, like midbass drivers to experiment with.


any chance of running ensolite under the door card instead of mlv?


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## Twisted Minis (Jan 22, 2009)

Awesome thread, and nice car. Do you know if that box you got will fit a B5 S4? I have an 01, but their site just says A4. No model range. Yours looks similar to the shape of the access panel for the 6 disc changer. Would be nice if this fit, I really like the way it looks.

And Racer 5 is great. I am in Windsor, right by their brewery and restaurant. Lagunitas is good, also very close to me. I like their seasonal beers, or weird stuff like WTF.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm not familiar enough with Audis to know i fit will fit a B5, but I suspect it can work, because it's just an approximate fit anyway.


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## Twisted Minis (Jan 22, 2009)

Thanks for the info. I'm only familiar with my chassis model.


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

I have a b5, but I had the box with the jack and changer in it. If you take that out, you have about the same room for that enclosure.. Not sure if that one will work with our cars, but something similar should work with no problem..


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## jackp311 (Jun 7, 2010)

Regarding your running of wires through the amp rack to the amps: I was going to ask you where you came out from behind the trunk liner. But, it looks like you fished them underneath the parcel shelf in the rear. In your opinion, does the shelf liner (the carpeted piece on the interior of the car) need to be removed to do this? Currently I am coming out from behind the trunk liner next to my amp rack that matches yours. The wires then just kind of run beside then behind the amp. I would love to re-do it the way you did. But, I do not want to remove the shelf liner. How hard was the top half of the back seats to remove? 

Also, a huge thanks for your amp rack plans. I followed them to a T and got a perfect amp rack on the first try. Can't ask for better help than that.

PS: Sorry for long post. Was going to PM you but realized that helps no one in future readings of this thread.


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## newsqguy (Apr 16, 2008)

jackp311 said:


> Regarding your running of wires through the amp rack to the amps: I was going to ask you where you came out from behind the trunk liner. But, it looks like you fished them underneath the parcel shelf in the rear. In your opinion, does the shelf liner (the carpeted piece on the interior of the car) need to be removed to do this? Currently I am coming out from behind the trunk liner next to my amp rack that matches yours. The wires then just kind of run beside then behind the amp. I would love to re-do it the way you did. But, I do not want to remove the shelf liner. How hard was the top half of the back seats to remove?
> 
> Also, a huge thanks for your amp rack plans. I followed them to a T and got a perfect amp rack on the first try. Can't ask for better help than that.
> 
> PS: Sorry for long post. Was going to PM you but realized that helps no one in future readings of this thread.


lets see the pics of your outcome!


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## newsqguy (Apr 16, 2008)

lude do you have any secrets for the molex plugs? i could use it as i will end up running wires myself!


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

jackp311 said:


> Regarding your running of wires through the amp rack to the amps: I was going to ask you where you came out from behind the trunk liner. But, it looks like you fished them underneath the parcel shelf in the rear. In your opinion, does the shelf liner (the carpeted piece on the interior of the car) need to be removed to do this? Currently I am coming out from behind the trunk liner next to my amp rack that matches yours. The wires then just kind of run beside then behind the amp. I would love to re-do it the way you did. But, I do not want to remove the shelf liner. How hard was the top half of the back seats to remove?
> 
> Also, a huge thanks for your amp rack plans. I followed them to a T and got a perfect amp rack on the first try. Can't ask for better help than that.
> 
> PS: Sorry for long post. Was going to PM you but realized that helps no one in future readings of this thread.


Glad it worked! Did the 3" cutouts at the corners fit okay? I actually ended up removing more material before I mounted mine, but I ended up removing more than I needed, so I'm not sure about the ideal shape.

Removing the rear deck requires removing the passenger oh-sh!t handles, then pulling out the D-pillars, disconnecting the wiring harness for the center brake light (and the retracting shade on the S) and then popping out the deck. There are a lot of interior clips involved and it's a pain. I have wires on top of the deck from my original tear-down, but it should be possible to run all your wires out from the side panels. Here's a photo of the wire-routing stage and you can see a mix of both.










Were you able to connect ground terminals without removing the deck?



newsqguy said:


> lude do you have any secrets for the molex plugs? i could use it as i will end up running wires myself!


I've never messed with Molex plugs. However, if you can get the tweeters out of the doors, you could just tap into the stock wiring and use that to connect to the midrange, and not run any extra wires. I actually think the left tweeter in the door is pretty bad for the soundstage, being so much closer than all the other drivers. I'm putting together a plan to fix this problem, so stay tuned.


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## newsqguy (Apr 16, 2008)

Lude I see some boxes in that pic is that a future setup


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

haha nope, those are huge. Those are boxes I built for my garage/12V bench system.


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## theunderfighter (Apr 4, 2011)

This thread was so damn good, I had to register to post and compliment on it. And your amp rack has inspired me to do the same. Unfortunately I have a Hyundai Elantra, so I'll have to develop my own plans and see if it's even possible. But its definitely a build I love! Love the design and how damn clean it is. I miss those full cone covers that JLs have, very nice. Fantastic build though man, I love it!


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Thanks! I'm not familiar with Hyundais but the key is to find pre-threaded holes in the deck.


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## theunderfighter (Apr 4, 2011)

Indeed! I've found various holes, haven't looked too in depth yet, still waiting on my amp to arrive. Though just a quick glance at mine I noticed I have quite a "lip" from the rear deck to the cabin where the seats split, which shouldn't be a big problem, but it won't work quite as well as yours. Also, just as I was looking around, I noticed it was quite hot on that inside of the trunk deck. Is yours the same way? Did you install any insulation or do you have any problems with the amps running hot?


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

newsqguy said:


> any chance of running ensolite under the door card instead of mlv?


Ensolite is not a substitute for MLV. It's marketed as a sound barrier but it's really just CCF like any other. It is useful as an isolation layer to keep MLV off metal panels, but it's not a sound barrier in itself. 


theunderfighter said:


> Indeed! I've found various holes, haven't looked too in depth yet, still waiting on my amp to arrive. Though just a quick glance at mine I noticed I have quite a "lip" from the rear deck to the cabin where the seats split, which shouldn't be a big problem, but it won't work quite as well as yours. Also, just as I was looking around, I noticed it was quite hot on that inside of the trunk deck. Is yours the same way? Did you install any insulation or do you have any problems with the amps running hot?


My car also has a barrier across the front of the deck, I think all cars do. I'm using it as the front bracing point. Just make sure your wire holes will fit behind it.

I did a 20 minute drive with the music at a decent listening volume, and the amps felt pretty warm afterward. Made me think seriously about putting fans in there. If you plan it beforehand, you could cut holes in the board and install fans blowing directly down onto the heat sinks, as long as you have a vent at the top of the deck cover for air intake.


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## theunderfighter (Apr 4, 2011)

Well when I emailed the manufacturer (elemental designs), they suggested a fan be used if the amp is mounted upside down. So I supposed in this set-up it'd be more of a necessity. And mount the fan behind the amps is a pretty good idea too, might have to do both. I could port a mini "air intake" to them...
So after that little test are you thinking about relocating, or just installing some ventilation, or just shrugging your shoulders at it?


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

I consider it a long-term wear issue, so for now I'm putting it on the back burner. One day I'll figure out a ventilation system when I have another reason to take it apart. Of course I want my Zapcos to last as long as possible but right now I have bigger distractions...


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Say Hello To My Little Friend!


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## matthewo (Jan 31, 2008)

Very nice, should be a lot most stable then those mini dsp


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Well... I played around with the MiniDSPs some more. I powered it with this and *it solved the noise problem!*

1205S DC-DC 5V(2Watt) Isolated Power Module. Ideal for 12V system

Of course, I fixed the miniDSP problem right after I bought an Audison BitOne. :foreheadslap: 

The DC-DC converter is rigged up with a breadboard and alligator clips, so I'm still in the R&D/laboratory stage. But it played noise-free with the engine running. 



















So, which processor to use for my install, now that I have both? The minis require a special power supply circuit, a turn-on delay circuit (capacitor and diode), and for the same amount of output channels they are really no smaller. The BitOne has 8 outputs in one chassis, an external controller, delayed turn-on, AUX inputs, etc, plus it's dead sexy. The miniDSPs have some advantages, including parametric EQs (the Audison only has GEQs) and the rear fill program. However I'll definitely be using the Audison, and with all the features it includes, it's definitely worth the extra few hundred bucks. I'll be keeping a couple miniDSPs around to experiment with rear fill and use in my bench system.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I'd do the B1 simply because of the rat's nest it would clean up with all of the wires running back and forth between the mini DSPs and the power supply.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Dear Diary,
This build has evolved from an innocent attempt at SQ to an evil living thing that dwells in my garage and feeds on my evenings and weekends, not to mention my paychecks. I would like to say it's almost done and it just needs a little tuning, but that would be a lie, as there are still big changes ahead. I can make it play and it sounds okay, but I'm not satisfied. My roommates think I'm crazy and want to hold an intervention. I am taking a knife to more parts of my car that I swore I would never modify. I have only gone mountain biking twice this year, partly due to heavy rain, but partly due to my car stereo. I get distracted a lot at work. I love car audio, but this can't go on forever.

Dan


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Haha, I know the feeling. I.ve been using every evening/weekend I have free to work on my stereo and I don't even have any sound coming out yet. I want to go backpacking or ride BMX but somehow the past few weekends are gone before I know if and I've been out in the driveway the whole time.


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## newsqguy (Apr 16, 2008)

Just imagine how much all of these changes and adjustments would cost if you were paying installers and fabricators.......


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

Twisted Minis said:


> Awesome thread, and nice car. Do you know if that box you got will fit a B5 S4? I have an 01, but their site just says A4. No model range. Yours looks similar to the shape of the access panel for the 6 disc changer. Would be nice if this fit, I really like the way it looks.
> 
> And Racer 5 is great. I am in Windsor, right by their brewery and restaurant. Lagunitas is good, also very close to me. I like their seasonal beers, or weird stuff like WTF.


yes the box ill fit in the car to your question,

Los Labs: Los Labs Automotive Firm: fiberglass boxes, custom car audio installs, fiberglass sub enclosures, speaker boxes, installations, and high end car audio equipment


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

After running the $460/pair Hybrid L6 mids in my work-in-progress setup for a while, I switched to the $60/pair Silver Flute mids from Madisound. People say they have similar tonality, and I just had to know. There were other variables in my system changing at the same time so I can't really post a fair listening comparison, and I won't post a separate review. But I do have an opinion that I will share in this thread, with emphasis on the fact that the comparison methodology was poor.

Silver Flute installed









These speakers have some physical similarities, which may or may not be meaningful. The depth is identical. The Silver Flute magnet is a little bigger. The cone dimensions are similar, and the surrounds are the same size, except one is inverted. The Hybrid surround fits perfectly inside the Silver Flute's surround, so that you can put one on top of the other. It's kind of funny actually.

The visible differences: The Hybrids have a phase plug and are paper. The Flutes have a dustcap and are wool. The Hybrids have nice spring-loaded wire terminals, while the SF has those awful flat terminals that most speakers have.






























First, I want to take a moment to address the claim by Scott Buwalda that his L6 mids can span 6 1/2 octaves (51 hz to 5100 hz), especially off-axis. Look at the L6 datasheet and think about what range you would want these to play based on the FR graph at the bottom. http://www.hybrid-audio.com/Legatia L6.pdf The usable range I found pretty much correlates with the published graph.

The response drops off below 100 hz, like any mid. Maybe with cabin gain you can get satisfactory response down to 51 hz, I don't know, but in my install this didn't happen. Neither speaker put out great midbass from my doors.

However, I want to focus on the upper end response. First of all, notice the dip around 3k and the peak around 4k-5k. The Silver Flute has a similar peak at 5k, although the graph appears to have more smoothing. This might be a result of cone break-up, which is a standing wave across the surface of the cone. Normally break-up is well above the crossover point, and the rated usable range is well below the first break-up mode. The audible result of break-up is a harsh or "ringing" sound due to the response peak. 

Also there is a phenomenon called beaming, where the dispersion narrows as the frequency rises. This is related to the diameter of the cone. If you look at a speaker straight on, all points on the speaker are about the same distance from you, but if you look at it from the side, the source is coming from various distances. Beaming happens when the wave from the near edge of the cone arrives out of phase with the wave from the far end of the cone, and cancels. If you think about it, this should only sync up perfectly at octave multiples, and the off-axis behavior of other wavelengths is harder to predict. The lower the frequency, the less phase cancellation you get. So, in my understanding, beaming and speaker break-up are the primary causes of the jagged response inherent in all speakers above the usable range. 

The Hybrids have a phase plug, which is supposed to push both beaming and break-up about an octave higher, thus extending the usable range at the expense of a little low-end response. Indeed, the Silver Flutes look like they extend a little lower, but their 5khz peak is in the same place. Probably no coincidence. The peaking with the SF is a little smoother, either because of the cone material or just because of how the graph is represented.

Beaming is very important in my install, and probably in most installs, because the left speaker is almost perfectly off-axis. I know Scott and his Hybrids have won lots of SQ competitions and I'm not saying great sound can't be had, but I bet they were more on axis than in my car. 

Also, in my car the center console is a big wall, so I'm sure I have a reflection problem across the footwells. Not a situation where I want horizontal beaming. 










In listening, when I had my Eclipse deck and the Hybrids installed, I was able to get a pretty good tonality using the PEQ. It was just good enough for an 800 mile round trip before I tore it out again (as logged in this thread). However, I had a mean crossover gap. I could not play the Hybrids well into the midrange without them sounding harsh. Also, I would describe the sound as being a little dry. Some stuff sounded good, some stuff didn't, and most stuff couldn't be turned up too loud. That is a sure sign that SQ has not been achieved. 

When I switched to the Silver Flutes, I was using the stock deck processed by a miniDSP or the Audison BitOne. Both of these have at least as much DSP capability as the Eclipse, but I didn't take as much time dialing the EQ because I knew it would be a temporary setup. However, the general tonality was pretty similar to the Hybrids. Kind of dry, accurate, they'll do the job just fine but they are not especially pleasing. I'm sure I could have got better results with more time. I had to cross them over no higher than about 4khz with a 24db slope. Any higher and they produced an audible harshness in the upper midrange, which agrees with the response peak in the graph.

In conclusion, I can't say the Flutes are just as good. I did get they Hybrids to sound better, and I should attribute this to the likelihood that they are just better speakers. Or, maybe it's because the Eclipse 7200 was a better source than my Audi's stock head unit. However, they aren't as far apart as $60 and $460 would suggest. I am confident in these points:

- The Hybrid L6 mids are a poor value, and I would not recommend them to anyone looking to spend a lot of hard-earned money on nice mids. Try something else. If you are set on using them they can be made to sound pretty decent, and possibly very good, in their usable range*.

- The Silver Flutes are a great value, and I would recommend them to anyone building a budget active setup. However, they aren't phenomenal, a diamond in the rough or anything like that. They have a similar usable range as the Hybrids.

- Both speakers sound a little sterile and a little dry.

- *Ignore the 6 octave usable range advertised in the literature, especially if used off-axis. I don't know how Scott can advertise 51hz to 5100hz in the same data sheet that has a graph showing a dropoff at 100hz and a jagged response from 4khz. And the farther off axis your speakers are mounted, the less they can be used into the upper frequencies. 


Dan


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

Interesting, are you going to stick with the Silver Flutes? I ran them a few years back, definitely a diamond in the rough, but for the price they can play nice with a little work.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Nope. I took them out today. I'm not going to put this install to rest until I have sound that I really love. To that end, my next step is to get the midrange out of the door by putting a 3" mid in the kicks, and using the door for a 7" dedicated midbass. I think the stock door grill really takes away from the vocal clarity. I don't have as much free time nowadays as I did over the winter, so installation updates will be less frequent.


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## AccordUno (Aug 7, 2009)

That's understandable. I need to finalize my A4 as well.. Kicks are being a real pain. but I need to finish it soon..


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## Disarm99 (Apr 24, 2011)

inspirational


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## hunter660 (Feb 23, 2009)

Nice install. Very similar to what I plan on doing to my VW Jetta. Especially regarding the amp rack.

As far as routing the wires, what was the complication with running them under the carpet? I'm wondering if I will have the same issues as you.


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## 330CK (Mar 4, 2008)

Very nice install. 

I spy a Park Tool stool. What kind of bike do you ride? (Sorry if you already answered that in the thread.)


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

hunter660 said:


> Nice install. Very similar to what I plan on doing to my VW Jetta. Especially regarding the amp rack.
> 
> As far as routing the wires, what was the complication with running them under the carpet? I'm wondering if I will have the same issues as you.


You might have an easier time of it. The Recaros in my car weigh over 70 lbs each, and I didn't feel like maneuvering them out of the car and back in while being careful not to smack anything with a hard part. Also the carpet is really tight and it's not so easy to get to all the corners and edges. Having the top half of my interior torn apart, I was already a little nervous about how it would go back together, and I decided to leave the floor alone.


330CK said:


> Very nice install.
> 
> I spy a Park Tool stool. What kind of bike do you ride? (Sorry if you already answered that in the thread.)


Santa Cruz Blur XC. It's a 2007, the last year the frames were handmade in the USA, thus it's not totally straight and it creaks a little at the pivots. But it's a great bike!


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## hunter660 (Feb 23, 2009)

Do you think the way you mounted your amp would work just as well with only the center bolt from the deck holding it up? I have not measured yet, but I don't think I want to make mine that wide.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

In that case I would suggest moving it to one side and using two bolts if possible. One bolt would work, but your wiring will be visible from inside the trunk. Also if you use one bolt, I suggest using a stronger material than MDF.


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## DenaliXTC (May 8, 2011)

clean install, nicely done.


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## billjohnson457 (Mar 29, 2011)

agreed, very nice install. Can I ask what grill are you using for your IDQ12?


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

billjohnson457 said:


> agreed, very nice install. Can I ask what grill are you using for your IDQ12?


I wish I knew, it's something that was sitting around at a local shop.


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## theunderfighter (Apr 4, 2011)

Thought you would appreciate this  Coaster from the bar at my work. Racer 5 is quite popular amongst us there, and I certainly enjoy it.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Nice, I've never been to the brewery but it might be a fun trip.


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## theunderfighter (Apr 4, 2011)

You definitely should, I'd imagine it's only about an hour away from ya or so?
I've heard the brewery trips are a blast! I'm down in southern california so I can't wait till I'm allowed to visit Stone, and AleSmith, and Port Brewing.


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## hc_TK (Jan 18, 2006)

where did you get the remote turn on, on the cd-player?


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Yes, fortunately the Symphony head unit has a remote turn-on lead for the stock Bose amp. It is a white wire. I ran it to a relay in the trunk.


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## hc_TK (Jan 18, 2006)

Lucky you. could find any remote out on my car 
I had the regular symphony stereo


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Same head unit, so you should be able to do the same thing. With a non-Bose car, they simply didn't include a wire in that position in the harness, but you could add one.


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## hc_TK (Jan 18, 2006)

Found white wire but there is to 12v on it. could try some more later maybe..


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

My SQ build fell off the back burner for a while due to the demands of work and summer (if "summer" is what you can call it here). Last week I finally picked it up again and got it playing. 

Audison BitOne controller is mounted in the ash tray, along with the Zapco bass knob. Everything is stealth with the lid closed. 




























Also, I spent some time this spring messing around with trying to put 3" mids in the kicks, but due to lack of time and fab skills, it didn't happen. So I put the Hybrid L6 mids back in the doors, and I'm going to try to give them another chance at sounding great.










Special thanks to 60ndown for the help with the initial tuning setup. We delayed the tweeters and brought the stage up higher. By attenuating the left tweeter, I can move the center image. The tweeter level slider in the BitOne software literally acts like a left/right center image adjustment. Try this if you have an active processor. Also, the BitOne has four memory settings, so I can easily switch between a time aligned/level adjusted setting for just the driver, or a centered setting for the driver and passenger. Life is good. 

I haven't played much with the EQ yet, or delayed everything relative to the sub, so the system is far from dialed. But, she's alive!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

love to take a listen this weekend Dan


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

Ludemandan said:


>



I'll send you a mix*tape* to check out :laugh:


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Haha, bonus points if it's recorded off the radio with your boom box.


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## thgem72 (Sep 29, 2010)

To the extent it might be helpful, I just finished replacing literally all of my speakers in a B7 S4. I went with the latest gen Hertz ML 280's (in place of ML 28's), Dynaudio Esotar 650's and the new Alpine Type R 8" 843-D all in the factory locations (sub mounted under the back deck). I removed a JLAudio10w6 which was in a custom side-mounted trunk enclosure. Just could never get quality base from a trunk location in this car! Also in part driven by my music tastes. Sounds pretty damn good to me so far, in particular given that nothing is broken in yet and the current tuning is a legacy from my prior setup.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

It's been a long and complicated road, but here is the system as it sits. K.I.S.S. is very much in effect here. 










I got it physically intact and trouble-free on Friday evening, spent an hour tuning, and went to Bing's local MECA event on Saturday afternoon to check out some cars. Bing talked me into entering the competition, since judging was still going on. I placed 6th out of 7 in Street class, with the tonality all over the place and the tune just getting off the ground. I got home and spent some more time making adjustments with test tones and music, and made improvements in strides. Things are finally looking (and sounding) good!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

come by someday and i'd love to take a listen hehe...did the feedback from Fred help you at all? that was my hopes...to give you a starting point to make some solid changes hehe


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## theunderfighter (Apr 4, 2011)

Notloudenuf said:


> I'll send you a mix*tape* to check out :laugh:


I actually did that for an old girlfriend who had an A4.


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## killahsharksjc (Apr 30, 2009)

Props to another DIYer installer... thumbs up....


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## killahsharksjc (Apr 30, 2009)

When you get it tuned I would like to give another listen...


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Measured the speaker distances for time alignment today. For reference, the layout is like so.










(Pictured is an A8L, but it will have to do.)

The left speakers are measured from my left ear, the right speakers are measured from my right ear, and the subwoofer is measured to the center of my head (without my head actually being there, lol). 

Left tweeter - 28"
Right tweeter - 47"
Left mid - 39"
Right mid - 54"
Subwoofer - 67"

Additionally, the left tweeter is attenuated -2 dB. This helps defeat the left tweeter dominance that is natural to the component layout. 

I input this as memory setting A. Memory setting B is time aligned between the seats, with no tweeter attenuation. Memory setting C is the mirror image of A. 

In terms of effort spent for benefit gained, this was one of the best 20 minutes I've ever spent tuning! Now when I switch between settings A and B, I can't believe I ever listened to long hours in a car with no time alignment and thought it sounded good. For the last week or so I have been using guesswork time alignment. My guesses were not far off, but now the image is noticably more focused and coherent. I can't wait to get my hands on Bing's imaging CD to test the voice placement and do some more fine tweaking.


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

That's a very nice way to graphically describe your install! I like it, 

(O:


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## ecbmxer (Dec 1, 2010)

Ludemandan said:


> Now when I switch between settings A and B, I can't believe I ever listened to long hours in a car with no time alignment and thought it sounded good.



I thought the same thing after I got my time alignment dialed in. Mine too is based off of measured distances and tweaked a bit from there. Have you tried that technique using pink noise that is posted up here somewhere? I couldn't hear the subtle changes fully to set it that way.


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## jboen (Jun 6, 2011)

Just wanted to say Thank you Ludemandan!

Your build inspired me to do the same to my B6 A4.

I have completed the amp rack, amplifier and BITONE installation.

I chose to go with the Audison LRX4.1, Hertz HSK165.4, HX250.5, BITONE and Connection Installation accessories.

By taking the time to answer my questions I was able to produce something I am EXTREMELY happy with.

I am currently re-doing my corner subwoofer enclosure as I was not happy with the original I did a year ago.

Time to tune!!


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

ecbmxer said:


> Have you tried that technique using pink noise that is posted up here somewhere? I couldn't hear the subtle changes fully to set it that way.


I've seen the topic but I haven't read the thread. It's on my back burner list. Also on my list is to align each pair of drivers by ear (with the rest muted) and see if I can't focus the image better.



jboen said:


> Just wanted to say Thank you Ludemandan!
> 
> Your build inspired me to do the same to my B6 A4.
> 
> ...


Awesome! Glad you found my build useful.


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## Arclight (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm really enjoying watching your build. I have a B6A4 and am slowly gathering up the parts to complete my build. I thought about going with DIN HU (an Alpine F1), but,have decided to go OEM+ for the HU and keep it looking as stock as possible.

Keep up the good work!


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## Arclight (Apr 29, 2011)

A question (if you answered it in the thread, I apologize): How did you deal with/bypass the stock HU internal amp for the front speakers? I know the rear doors and sub are powered by an amp in the trunk, however, the front stage is powered by in internal amp in the HU. I may have to go re-read the thread....


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

With Bose, the amp powers all four speakers, and it's fed by four RCA outs in the deck, so you have them if you want them. I just took one pair of RCA outs, put them into the BitOne, and crossed over from there. You can use front or rear RCA channels, it makes no difference.


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## Bluenote (Aug 29, 2008)

Ludemandan, it was good to meet and get a chance to hear your car at the last event!
It had a lot of potential then...but would love to hear it now! I've been working on my set up/tuning as well. Good job!


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## Arclight (Apr 29, 2011)

Ludemandan said:


> With Bose, the amp powers all four speakers, and it's fed by four RCA outs in the deck, so you have them if you want them. I just took one pair of RCA outs, put them into the BitOne, and crossed over from there. You can use front or rear RCA channels, it makes no difference.


Got it - do you have any pictures of the back side of your stock double-din amp? I don't recall seeing any RCA outs on the back of my factory HU. I could easily go purchase a different one though to get one w/ factory RCAs outs.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

It's not actual RCA wires, it's just normal wires in the harness that carry the line level signal, and you have to splice RCAs onto them. The four channels have a common ground, so this can be kind of tricky. You can accomplish the splice with one of these:
Amplifier Adapter - Audi RNS-E [33979] - $14.41 : Kufatec USA, Inc., The #1 Supplier of OEM Volkswagen & Audi Retrofit Harnesses in the World
Even if the website says it's out of stock, if you order it, they will send it.

Dan


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## Arclight (Apr 29, 2011)

Ludemandan said:


> It's not actual RCA wires, it's just normal wires in the harness that carry the line level signal, and you have to splice RCAs onto them. The four channels have a common ground, so this can be kind of tricky. You can accomplish the splice with one of these:
> Amplifier Adapter - Audi RNS-E [33979] - $14.41 : Kufatec USA, Inc., The #1 Supplier of OEM Volkswagen & Audi Retrofit Harnesses in the World
> Even if the website says it's out of stock, if you order it, they will send it.
> 
> Dan


Dan,
thanks for the link and the info. I have a non-Bose HU in my A4 so I wonder if the connections are the same (i.e. the amp is in the rear for all channels)? I'm going to have to do a bit more research or switch to a different Audi OEM HU. 

Do you have any links to Audi wiring harnesses or pinouts for the different HUs (before I start searching in earnest)?


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## ebrahim (Sep 21, 2009)

How deep are those mids?
How fast did you take this car before you lost control?

Thinking of getting this car but just wondering if it can handle 120 MPH + on the highway before spinning out.

Thank you.
Ebrahim




Ludemandan said:


> Meet my 2004 Audi S4 in dolphin gray, which I picked up recently. Nappa leather Recaro seats behind a 4.2L V8, quattro AWD and sport suspension. Torque, handling, class, understatement and practicality all wrapped up in one dignified (though quite heavy and complex) German package.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## theunderfighter (Apr 4, 2011)

ebrahim said:


> How deep are those mids?
> How fast did you take this car before you lost control?
> 
> Thinking of getting this car but just wondering if it can handle 120 MPH + on the highway before spinning out.
> ...


^
My old girlfriend had an A4 and I got it up to 133mph before slowing down. I just wanted to get it to 130 because apparently that's what it was governed to, and I surpassed that
But I would regularly have it around 110mph weaving in and out of cars/traffic.


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## suicidecl (Mar 25, 2010)

nice build


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

ebrahim said:


> How deep are those mids?
> How fast did you take this car before you lost control?
> 
> Thinking of getting this car but just wondering if it can handle 120 MPH + on the highway before spinning out.
> ...


You do understand that Audis, ALL Audis, are built for high speed cruising on the Autobahn, right? My freaking A4 Avant will cruise, rock-solid, at 130MPH all day long. It's cruise even faster if it was Euro spec and didn't have the limiter enabled. 

An S4 will cruise in the 150-160MPH range. Hell, I did about 3 straight hours at 160+MPH in my M3. German cars are built for this. You just need to maintain them and make sure you're not throwing some garbage tires on them and expecting it to be safe.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

theunderfighter said:


> ^
> My old girlfriend had an A4 and I got it up to 133mph before slowing down. I just wanted to get it to 130 because apparently that's what it was governed to, and I surpassed that
> *But I would regularly have it around 110mph weaving in and out of cars/traffic.*


You, sir, are a ****ing idiot.


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## theunderfighter (Apr 4, 2011)

quality_sound said:


> You, sir, are a ****ing idiot.


Yea, I've come to terms with that. I did a lot of stupid things in cars for a while. Mellowed out now. It's nothing I'm particularly proud of, but I figured my experiences with it would help answer his question.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

I finally got around to removing the Hybrid mids, because I could not get them to sound quite right. They are for sale. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/car-audio-classifieds/118407-hybrid-legatia-l6-mids.html

In their place, I installed some Scan-Speak 18W/4434G-00 7" midwoofers, which I bought from Bikinpunk (the test results from this particular pair of speakers are posted in his test forum). 
Scanspeak Discovery 18W/4434G-00, 7" Midwoofer, 4 ohm: Madisound Speaker Store

Although the Scan-Speak is described as a 7" midwoofer and the Hybrid is a 6.5", they are exactly the same size, with exactly the same bolt circle diameter, and the same depth, and the Scans dropped right in. The only difference is the Scans have 6 screws and the Hybrids have 4. 










The EQ curve had to be adjusted again, of course. I went through test tones a couple of times, made some tweaks, and got a curve not much different from the Hybrids. 

Here is the correction I had set for the Hybrid L6. 









Here is the correction I arrived on for the Scan-Speak, with about an hour of tuning and listening. A few bands had to be pushed down, but I was able to ease up on the 1khz band, which was massively offensive with the L6. 









It looks like the Scan-Speak should be a little quieter with more EQ suppression, but this is not the case. Interestingly, though the major EQ dips are shifted a little, the basic shape is the same, which leads me to believe I'm adjusting for my car doors, not the speakers themselves.

*One-day listening comparison:* These speakers sound remarkably similar; however, the Scan-Speak is livelier. The midbass is sweeter, and less dry, and I can cross them over lower. The vocals are more forward, which is why there is more suppression in the midrange EQ bands. In summary, it's a slightly more aggressive speaker. My first impression after dropping them in and using the old EQ curve was that they are just a shade less transparent, but it was a faint enough impression that I could have been imagining it. Your ears sound different from day to day.

The Hybrids are more laid back, which sounds good in theory and is why I bought them originally, but not in the way I imagined. The "laid back" non-aggressive sound goes hand in hand with a little dryness and a little staleness. Again, the effects I'm describing are subtle, because these speakers do sound fairly similar. But after tuning with the Scans and then driving on the freeway for two 45-minute trips with music on blast, I'm happier with them. With proper EQ tuning to get rid of your peaks, the aggressiveness I'm describing turns into a more lively musicality. 

Interestingly, I still can't set the HP filter above 2500 hz @ 12 dB/oct without the upper midrange assaulting my ears. So either these speakers are astoundingly similar, or this is a problem with all 6.5" mids off-axis, or it's an attribute of my car.

Summary: If you're considering these speakers, buy the Scan-Speaks, especially if you're paying for them new!


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## thetroublemaker (Nov 28, 2010)

Hi there! 

I have been reading this - i have a dolphin gray A4 also, mine is a 1.8t Quattro (190hp) mapped to 240hp, same as yours just not with recaros (or a v8 lol!!!) 

I am doing a similar install to yourself - the system goes like so.....

Pioneer P99RS running into 

DLS A2 powering HAT Legatia L1 Pro SE (8k up) in custom cnc bullet mounts. 
DLS TA2 powering HAT Legatia L3 SE (250hz - 8khz) in A pillar builds 
DLS A3 powering HAT Legatia L6 SE (50hz - 250hz) in oem door builds 
DLS A6 powering DLS Nordica 10 sub (1 or 2 subs, 50hz down) in rear shelf mount. 

I would be very keen to get the details from you on the MDF rings, so i can make something up this weekend. 

I am going to try the HATs in there, i do not envisage an issue there as i am running them as midbass units only, but we will see how we get along. 

great to see someone else doing something similar though and will get my own build log going soon!!!


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Thanks. I firmly believe that the way to make the midrange shine in this car is to get it out of the door and into a smaller speaker and/or one that isn't by your foot. I'll respond to your PM.


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## timbo2 (Apr 25, 2009)

newsqguy said:


> Yea I figured as much..... Was hoping for a tighter seal I guess


arnt we all? :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## werner sline (Mar 20, 2012)

Ludemandan said:


> Thanks. I firmly believe that the way to make the midrange shine in this car is to get it out of the door and into a smaller speaker and/or one that isn't by your foot. I'll respond to your PM.


yeah, I agree with that to. I don't know this car, but I have the Audi a4 b8 and I like to have freqs above 1Khz ( at least) on the dash. Doors always tend to shadow those important freqs...


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

It's been about a year since I put my car audio build on hold, but it's been just that - hold, not finished. I've been driving around unsatisfied and a little annoyed with myself that after all this work, there are still big problems with the sound.

*Cliff's note on the biggest problem:* The stock location of the woofers in the doors results in jagged frequency response off-axis due to beaming, so I can't cross them over well into the midrange. The stock tweeter locations are the size of a thimble, so I can't fit much there. So, I've had no speakers playing the ~ 2khz-6.5khz range, just rolloff from the crossover slopes. The midrange has been audible but flat. Yet the flatness has been less offensive than if I were to close the xover gap. 

Now, thanks to holiday vacation time, I've found a way to fit a pair of these babies:
ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6020-00 Tweeter Textile Dome










These will not fit in the stock tweeter locations. However, some people here on DIYMA have already posted on how to take them apart.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...an-speak-illuminator-d2004-60200-tweeter.html

So I put them in my bench vise, grabbed the backings with my several-16ths adjustable wrench and rotated them off. 



















Once you take the grills off, the guts fall out. Without the grills holding them together, you have to find another way. So I put a bead of Krazy Glue around the perimeter of the backing. They'll never come apart again, but I don't see why they would have to.










Needless to say, Krazy Glue is dangerous to work with. Several years ago I was repairing something and I held the cap in my lips for a second while I glued the part. Turns out there was some wet glue on the cap... almost glued my lips together that day.

Anyway, here's a side-by-side of the tweeter with and without the grill. Both the depth and diameter can be significantly reduced.










Here's what they look like next to the Hybrid Clarus tweeters I took out. The Scans with no grill are slightly larger than they Hybrids with their grill.










The Scan tweeters are also slightly larger than the stock tweeters, so they won't fit nicely into the plastic holder behind the grill. Yet there is just enough room to fit them in the top of the door. 

Here one sits on top of a rag.










To mount it, I stuffed a plastic bag inside the door. Then I took some Hilti filler foam and sprayed it into the bag. It's non-expanding and sets up rigid. 










Then I cut away the bag from around the opening.










And the tweeter just barely fits. You have to cut off the plastic that retained the stock tweeter from behind the cover. It's kind of a sloppy way to mount it, there's so little clearance that you can't get anything behind it.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

There was an immediate improvement in SQ, even before making any adjustments. These tweeters are smoother and easier to listen to than the Hybrids I removed - and that's just in the 6.5khz and up range in which I had them crossed. 

I had the Clarus tweeters high-passed at 6.5khz. They couldn't go lower without sounding awful. I have the Scan-Speak tweeters high passed at *2,750 hz, 24db/oct* and they sound great! I finally have something playing the midrange, and it's a revelation. Jazz trumpet features prominently in my playlists, and it's suddenly become well articulated and non-offensive. For EQ, I have a slight cut at 4k-5k and a big cut at 8khz. I've turned down the low-pass on the woofers to 1400 hz, to really keep them below the directivity threshold. My car stereo just became much more listenable, especially on midrange-heavy jazz and acoustic music. I can even listen to old Miles Davis recordings at a decent volume with satisfying fidelity and no fatiguing effects - not an easy task in car audio.

As it stands:









Next step: Experiment with midbasses, and more tuning work, especially with independent L/R EQ and phase matching.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

You know i'm steeling your idea with the tweeters, I though i would have to cut the round ages on them, or something and didn't want to damage them.. But Now I have found a new Trick!

Thank you for posting

B7 Owner here


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Extended listening report: The ScanSpeak tweeters are really marvelous. They're my favorite part of my system. I currently have them high passed at 2.25 khz, 24 db/oct. The limitations of the graphic EQ on my BitOne make it so that I can't really even out the in-car response, but that doesn't seem to be too problematic when listening to music. Hopefully someday I'll get a real DSP and be able to tune them even better, but for now I'm just enjoying the laid back sparkle of the highs. They're expensive at $125 each, but considering the massive outlays most of us have already put into car audio, and the ROI you get with these in terms of SQ, and the range they cover, they're well worth it. 

On a related note, I've also become a big believer in the low crossover frequency, with a gap. I'm currently running up to 1k on the mids and picking up again at 2.25k with the tweeters. This not only corresponds to the capability of the Scan tweeters, it also conveniently divides your mids and tweeters into the tuning realms of IID and ITD. Basically, below 1500 hz we localize sound based on time/phase differences, and above 2khz (depending on the distance between our ears) we localize based on intensity differences. I'm too lazy to find a good link right now but there are good explanations of this on DIYMA and elsewhere. 

The implication of all this is that time alignment doesn't matter much for tweeters, but it's crucial for woofers. A bit of experimenting in the car makes this abundantly clear. If I mute all the drivers except the tweeters, adjusting the delay makes no difference in my perception of the acoustic center. The dominant side is defined solely by the levels; and in finer resolution, by evening up the response of individual frequencies by EQing individual drivers. By adjusting the relative levels of each tweeter, I can make the center image slide left and right across the car.
By contrast, muting all the speakers except the woofers, adjusting the delay makes a major difference in the perceived center. I started with the delays determined from measured distances, as I posted earlier in this thread, but a bit of experimentation with only the woofers playing goes a long way toward getting it right. I would recommend setting it up this way. Of course levels make a difference as well (probably due to HD and other localization effects), but trying to achieve an acoustic center by playing with level differences in the low midrange is much harder.

The crux: Crossing over in the zone of ambiguity between IID and ITD localization has served me pretty conveniently in terms of centering the image using isolated pairs of drivers.


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

Alternatively, you can use an RTA or AutoEQ function to bring up the frequency response of the mids in the 2 to 5KHz region. I run Pioneer's AutoEQ and my HAT Imagines sound marvelously with woofer low passed at 6.3KHz, and tweeter HP at 6.3KHz. Or you can certainly get a high performance tweeter like above, and let it play down to 2KHz. This can get your frequency response right, but it can also make imaging less consistent, as the tweeter will play some of the vocal range frequencies. If your HP is at 2-2.5Hz, tweeter may still play audibly the frequencies below 2KHz. The issues can manifest when say male vocals appear to be centered, yet female vocals appear less stable. I use to note this issue when tweeters use HP at 3KHz or a shallow slope. So it this point, getting tweeter time aligned with the woofer on each side can be more important. Basically you have exchanged one tuning issue for another. I used HAT Imagine tweeter with a 6dB high pass filter, and I still could hear the impact of time alignment when only tweeters were playing. It was not strong, but it was there. (of course HAT tweeters sounded harsh with such shallow slope, even though that's their factory crossover setting)


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

I'm familiar with HAT's philosophy of crossing over high and having one driver cover the vocal range. I tried this with my original install (with HAT drivers) and the results were not good. In a home theater sweet-spot setting with all drivers on-axis, and a cone with no breakup, maybe this could work, but in a car there are severe off-axis problems, grill coverage problems, etc. I finally decided that the door speakers simply should have as limited bandwidth as possible. 

Also, as I covered previously, HAT's claim that their speakers can cover a range of 51 hz (Fs) to 6k to me sounds kind of absurd. I couldn't find anything that makes their 6.5" drivers different from any other performance woofer, their FR graphs look totally standard, and nobody else makes the same claim. IMHO, they're getting lots of mileage with their customers via the power of suggestion. In the real world, in a car, crossing over at 6k is trading one advantage for many disadvantages.


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

Ludemandan said:


> Also, as I covered previously, HAT's claim that their speakers can cover a range of 51 hz (Fs) to 6k to me sounds kind of absurd. I couldn't find anything that makes their 6.5" drivers different from any other performance woofer, their FR graphs look totally standard, and nobody else makes the same claim.



I believe in the reviews/klippel section on this web site there have been several tests of various L6 speakers showing relatively well behaved frequency response up to 5-6KHz. These tests were done on-axis of course. Compare this to the tests of raw drivers used in home audio such as Dayton RS/DA series on zaphadio.com. Ragged, irregular frequency response just above 2KHz. 

Of course, if a large woofer is to fill frequencies up to 5-6KHz in a car, then it needs to be installed closer to axis, such as in kick panels, or you need to adjust the equalizer. The result will depend on how many equalizer bands you have. Indeed, with zero tuning, a 2-way component system using crossover frequency at around 3KHz probably has a greater promise to sound "full" out of the box. HAT woofers are more sensitive to install details and will need good processing to perform best. It seems like a Focal Polyglass family of speakers behave in a similar way (it probably has to do with woofers made with processed paper, like HAT woofers). The Polyglass woofers are expected to fill FR up to 4-5KHz. I have seen test reviews involving measurements and they all have a big dip, up to -10dB, above 2KHz off axis.


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

Saying a driver has good frequency response if you just use a bunch of EQ is like saying, this car body is perfectly straight if you just pound out all the dents. Saying you just need lots of EQ bands is like saying you just need a big enough hammer. I can understand if people need to make excuses to justify their purchase or validate their beliefs, but I prefer to keep my analysis objective. 

And no, you can't fix ragged response from beaming with EQ. It's a consequence of speaker geometry, not cone material, and no amount of engineering or marketing can change that. Look at spec sheets from other manufacturers with 6 1/2" concave drivers with a similar xmax, and the FR charts span roughly the same usable range, but they don't make the same claims. I'm sure Hybrid drivers are perfectly good, but the price and the marketing are what turn me off (not to mention the sound).


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## ebrahim (Sep 21, 2009)

What crossover points did you cross the L6 and the tweeters?
Where did you get your headunit from?
Awesome build by the way.

Thank you.



Ludemandan said:


> Meet my 2004 Audi S4 in dolphin gray, which I picked up recently. Nappa leather Recaro seats behind a 4.2L V8, quattro AWD and sport suspension. Torque, handling, class, understatement and practicality all wrapped up in one dignified (though quite heavy and complex) German package.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## edzyy (Aug 18, 2011)

nice install

That trunk is begging for IB

Do it! Do it! Do it! Do it!


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

LOVE those seats. I wasn't aware the seats in the A4 were this
BA! Wish they would fit in my 911 but I'm sure they are far too
wide. One can only wish. Nice work on the install so far. 

How is the tuning going, is it meeting your expectations?


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

Did you put the 911 build on the shelf?

.....or is it medical issues again


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## Ludemandan (Jul 13, 2005)

ebrahim said:


> What crossover points did you cross the L6 and the tweeters?
> Where did you get your headunit from?
> Awesome build by the way.
> 
> Thank you.


Thanks. Everything in the original post has been replaced, it's all in the thread. Trying to find xover points on the Hybrid speakers was one of the problems. 



FLYONWALL9 said:


> LOVE those seats. I wasn't aware the seats in the A4 were this
> BA! Wish they would fit in my 911 but I'm sure they are far too
> wide. One can only wish. Nice work on the install so far.
> 
> How is the tuning going, is it meeting your expectations?


S4.  The seats in the A4 are nothing special.


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## ecobass (Oct 15, 2012)

Love this Audi S4 build, so much to learn here.


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## EuroS4 (May 7, 2013)

All of AZer's are ending up on here. lol

black99.5a4 here i have a noggy b5s4.


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## quickaudi07 (May 19, 2010)

You gave me a motivation to install Scan's tweeters in my doors as well,  I really enjoy them, I have them crossed from 4khz to about 22khz at @12db, I think you should play with the frequencies and crossovers points more, they are so smooth, and detailed... Love mines! 

As you said before, 125$ tweeters isn't too too bad! look at Morels MT23, 350$ if not more, and some other brands out there that cost so damn much money, Scan's for me it is!


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