# BM mkV sneak peek



## Electrodynamic

I have been keeping this drivers development very close to the chest for many months but I think now is a good time to release information about this very unique woofer. I am extremely excited about the woofer and while there are still a few details to iron out the design is very close to coming to fruition. Tooling has begun on almost every part so here are details and pictures:

First thing to get out of the way are key elements / design criteria for this woofer. My goal with this driver was to unleash the coolest, baddest, shallow'ish woofer. Using the BM mkIII and mkIV as inspiration yielded the following:

12" diamter subwoofer
Solid neo slug XBL^2 motor
Full length copper pole sleeve for reduced inductance
3" diameter, 6 layer, copper windings Dual 2 Ohm voice coil
18mm Xmax with 24mm Xmech (both are one-way measurements)
REV surround for excellent linearity and extended diaphragm travel ability
Aluminum reverse diaphragm carrier for increased clearance which will yield increased peak throw ability
Aluminum dome cone/diaphragm 
Completely modular aluminum basket
8 3/8" nomex spider
Modular aluminum spider carrier that will also bolt to the motor for a unique look
Mounting depth of under 4.0" (3.95" mounting depth)

The woofer will still work in a 0.5 ft^3 sealed box as the BM mkIV while having a better Qtc alignment with the same extremely deep bass extension capability. 

Pictures:

This reverse carrier and dome are no taller than the surround on the BM mkIV so mounting clearance is not hindered. Here you can see where the coil attaches to the center of the carrier with five stiffening arms that lead out to the surround landing:









Here is the carrier mated with the REV surround:









The dome applied to the carrier:









The modular basket arms mated to the spider landing and motor carrier:









The modular mounting lip attached to the latter:









Motor attached to the latter:









The carrier added in position:









Everything assembled and a cutaway added to the drawing:









Fully assembled hard parts:









Ignore the colors of the pieces in these drawings. The colors are there to separate the pieces for easier part isolation. I am toying around with the idea of either making painting or anodizing the dome a specific color prior to assembly for an extra fee. The driver will come with a polished aluminum dome with the Stereo Integrity logo "printed" (it will look more like the logo has been sand blasted) on the dome for production. But again, I may offer customized dome finishes or colors. For the modular basket I am going to look into a gunmetal grey anodlized finish. 

You are seeing the assembled image correctly - the basket arms do not meet up with the motor. It is like that on purpose. The motor will look like it is floating inside the speaker but the motor will be supported by the arms of the spider landing / motor carrier. 

This driver will not be a $1000 driver. I am also not going to give them away. I hope to meet a price point of $500 for each woofer. Hopefully lower but I know a price for sure once all the parts are finished being tooled and I have everything in hand. 

If things go well I hope to have two finished prototypes by March or April 2015.


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## quality_sound

What's the target release date?


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## Electrodynamic

quality_sound said:


> What's the target release date?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Shortly after the prototypes are finished. Tooling has already begun on all of the parts so progress should be pretty quick.


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## Weightless

Can we assume that it is a 12? Or maybe a 15 with a 4" depth that will play in a .5 cu ft?


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## spyders03

Very impressive sir, great work as always. Can't wait to see the finished product!


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## Electrodynamic

Weightless said:


> Can we assume that it is a 12? Or maybe a 15 with a 4" depth that will play in a .5 cu ft?


Oops, sorry, this is a 12" woofer. 

No magic of a 42" woofer that works in a 0.1 ft^3 sealed box, etc.


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## bigdexxx

What will the voice coil configuration be on this speaker?


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## Electrodynamic

bigdexxx said:


> What will the voice coil configuration be on this speaker?


Dual 2 Ohm. Power handling will be rated at 750 watts RMS.


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## Weightless

Electrodynamic said:


> Oops, sorry, this is a 12" woofer.
> 
> No magic of a 42" woofer that works in a 0.1 ft^3 sealed box, etc.


That would be sick. You could have called it the "frisbee". Haha.

I don't even know how that would be possible. The box would be like a lid...


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## Weightless

If you are offering custom domes, would a naked dome be an option? Non branded?


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## Electrodynamic

Weightless said:


> That would be sick. You could have called it the "frisbee". Haha.
> 
> I don't even know how that would be possible. The box would be like a lid...


It's not possible. Well, technically it is possible but it would perform horribly and not fit in anything.


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## Electrodynamic

Weightless said:


> If you are offering custom domes, would a naked dome be an option? Non branded?


A non-logo dust cap is not an option. The BM mkIII's and BM mkIV's have been non-branded and no further shallow SI offering will be non-branded.


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## bigdexxx

A carbon fiber dome would actually be pretty nice on this sub.


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## Electrodynamic

bigdexxx said:


> A carbon fiber dome would actually be pretty nice on this sub.


If you want to personalize the dome you are more than welcome to do whatever you want to do to the woofer after you receive it but the dome will not be replaced with a carbon fiber dome as CF does not weigh enough to reach the design goals of the driver. If a CF dome was used the woofer would not play nearly as low.


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## edzyy

That red looks awesome although it isn't real =[

In for more progress


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## Electrodynamic

edzyy said:


> That red looks awesome although it isn't real =[
> 
> In for more progress


I agree, I love the dark red. I was thinking of the dark red on the new Lexus IS cars but if I did that color people with blue, yellow, etc, cars would not not buy it because of the color. Hence the decision to go with a polished aluminum dome with dark grey anodized frame.


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## Brian Steele

Nice. I'm not too sure I like the "suspended motor" look though. Don't discount the ability for those arms to wick heat away from the motor if they were connected to it in some manner


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## Electrodynamic

Brian Steele said:


> Nice. I'm not too sure I like the "suspended motor" look though. Don't discount the ability for those arms to wick heat away from the motor if they were connected to it in some manner


Thanks.  

By the time the backplate would be hot enough for the small arms to wick away enough heat to justify connecting the small surface area arms to the motor the coil would be toast.


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## RandomBeat

awesome as always from si!


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## Brian Steele

Electrodynamic said:


> Thanks.
> 
> By the time the backplate would be hot enough for the small arms to wick away enough heat to justify connecting the small surface area arms to the motor the coil would be toast.


I was thinking more along the lines of connecting the arms together with a metal sleeve that slips over and bolts on to the motor. That should give the "wick" a bit more surface area to work with.

I'm just thinking of Infinity's 122.7W: - 12" driver, 3" coil, 12mm Xmax, rated at 350W RMS however, neo magnet motor (not enough motor strength IMO, but that's another story), pole vent and surrounded by a pretty large heat sink....


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## WhereAmEye?

Is that a solidworks rendering?


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## Electrodynamic

Brian Steele said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of connecting the arms together with a metal sleeve that slips over and bolts on to the motor. That should give the "wick" a bit more surface area to work with.
> 
> I'm just thinking of Infinity's 122.7W: - 12" driver, 3" coil, 12mm Xmax, rated at 350W RMS however, neo magnet motor (not enough motor strength IMO, but that's another story), pole vent and surrounded by a pretty large heat sink....


Again, not enough surface area even with a solid sleeve around the OD of the backplate to justify "wicking" away heat at the OD of the backplate. Maybe another 5 watts of power handling. Nothing substantial to justify the cost. Taking heat away from the coil initially via the gap vents and the ratio of the coil ID: pole OD and winding OD:TopPlate ID and gap vent structure/relationship is more important than trying to soak up heat through the OD of the magnet structure.


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## Electrodynamic

WhereAmEye? said:


> Is that a solidworks rendering?


Yes.


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## 2010hummerguy

I am probably in for two of these for a new build this summer


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## Gomer Pilot

Just about to install the two Mark IVs and now I'll have to work a plan to implement these later on. Killing me Nick!


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## sundownz

It's going to be pretty epic


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## sundownz

One of the coolest looking drivers I've laid eyes on in a while too; besides the fact that performance will be better than the MKIV in every way (and the MKIV is a great driver).


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## bertholomey

I am anxiously waiting to see / hear this driver as well. The 'teases' have been hard to bear.....especially when I get in the car and am constantly amazed by the mkVI's performance.....how could it be better? Very cool that a designer / builder would share this level of detail about an upcoming product on DIYMA. 


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## Old Skewl

Another awesome design Nick! Still impressed by my MKIV. Can't wait to hear one of these beasts


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## ImK'ed

Good stuff nick!


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## YukonXL04

Wow. Thats just awesome! Excellent work!


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## casey

Trying to think if there's a .5" to spare on the back of my box for my two mkIV. Dammit


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## quality_sound

Well dammit. I was going to pick up the MkIVs but I guess I'm waiting for the V now. 


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## 2010hummerguy

casey said:


> Trying to think if there's a .5" to spare on the back of my box for my two mkIV. Dammit


Think another baffle would work?


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## AAAAAAA

Love the floating look


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## Manic1!

Too bad my amp does 800 at 2 ohms or I would be all over one of these.


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## LMS

Hmmm... Debating between this or the mag v3 re-release...


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## jsnstanley

Will the FS goal be similar to that of the IV? This seems to out displace even the King of shallow displacement woofers. Still SQ orientated with a higher spl?


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## Souldrop

That sub looks awesome. May have to finally add some SI to my xbl collection


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## Electrodynamic

jsnstanley said:


> Will the FS goal be similar to that of the IV? This seems to out displace even the King of shallow displacement woofers. Still SQ orientated with a higher spl?


Yes, Fs will be similar to the BM mkIV. Yes the BM mkV will still be SQ oriented but with more output than any of the previous versions.


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## AtlasMick

Electrodynamic said:


> Dual 2 Ohm. Power handling will be rated at 750 watts RMS.



YES! I would love to try these guys out. If you want me to drive down and pop four of these bad boys in my car lemme know!


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## AtlasMick

What was the xmech of the BM mk IV?


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## Electrodynamic

AtlasMick said:


> YES! I would love to try these guys out. If you want me to drive down and pop four of these bad boys in my car lemme know!


Driving all the way from Nevada to NC? That's a hike!



AtlasMick said:


> What was the xmech of the BM mk IV?


18mm


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## dgage

I'm with Manic...I'd like a Dual 1 so I can wire my amp at 2 ohms with a single BM MK V. Come on Nick, give the public what they want! You know you want to.


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## quality_sound

Wire it at 4. It'll be just as good and have more headroom. 


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## ErinH

is it me, or is the rendering just really cool looking? Definitely nice to see Nick's progression. Now, I'm waiting for Nick to start making some 3" mids.


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## seafish

Well I know what I'll be using in my truck whenever I can upgrade from the single IDQ10v2 that I use right now.


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## Souldrop

Any plans to do a similar platform in a 10?


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## dgage

quality_sound said:


> Wire it at 4. It'll be just as good and have more headroom.


Well my tiny Soundstream Picasso Nano PN1.650D sub amp puts out 650w at 2 ohm and 400w at 4 ohm. So I guess I'll have to look at the T/S parameters when they're available to see if the BM MK IV at 2 ohms is a better fit for me than the BM MK V at 4 ohms.


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## dgage

ErinH said:


> is it me, or is the rendering just really cool looking? Definitely nice to see Nick's progression. Now, I'm waiting for Nick to start making some 3" mids.


It is cool...very, very cool!


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## rxonmymind

ErinH said:


> is it me, or is the rendering just really cool looking? Definitely nice to see Nick's progression. Now, I'm waiting for Nick to start making some 3" mids.


THAT would be killer. He's done big very well. Now let'see if small can be done too. I'd not hesitate to buy.


Fantastic looking sub.


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## 2010hummerguy

It just occurred to me that these could possibly be Illusion C12XL killers.


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## captainobvious

Looks like another promising woofer from you Nick. Nice job.

How much of a performance increase would a user see vs the already excellent mkIV?

I'd also love a larger diameter subwoofer with the low frequency capability of the BM mkIV with a significant increase in output. (15"?)


-Steve


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## sierrarider

Wow! This is going to be very hard to resist in a truck center console installation. I'll have to see how much volume is available there. Impressive.


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## Guest

Very, Very nice looking subwoofer.... Love that a US manufacturer is having success and exercising the option to be so open to his customers...!

BIG thumbs UP !


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## sundownz

Architect7 said:


> It just occurred to me that these could possibly be Illusion C12XL killers.


IMHO... absolutely.


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## captainobvious

Manic1! said:


> Too bad my amp does 800 at 2 ohms or I would be all over one of these.


If the sensitivity is decent enough, You'd still be fine.


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## captainobvious

SQ_TSX said:


> Very, Very nice looking subwoofer.... Love that a US manufacturer is having success and exercising the option to be so open to his customers...!
> 
> BIG thumbs UP !



Totally agreed. And it's a high quality product as well.


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## Treesive

Architect7 said:


> I am probably in for two of these for a new build this summer


Mark me down as interested as well in a pair depending on tsps but SI subs ussually are in my ballpark for specs. Now I need to start another savings venture as I will be in on the Mag release as well...


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## captainobvious

Treesive said:


> Mark me down as interested as well in a pair depending on tsps but SI subs ussually are in my ballpark for specs. Now I need to start another savings venture as I will be in on the Mag release as well...


Is that a release of the 12" or 15"

I'd be all over a 15.


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## Treesive

captainobvious said:


> Is that a release of the 12" or 15"
> 
> I'd be all over a 15.


12's not that I would be against a 15 but i think for what the sub is supposed to be shallow mount, small box, I can see 15's being a minor thought upfront.


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## AtlasMick

Electrodynamic said:


> Driving all the way from Nevada to NC? That's a hike!


Oops, actually in KY. I meant to put Lex Vegas, which is what we call Lexington, KY around here.


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## dgage

AtlasMick said:


> Oops, actually in KY. I meant to put Lex Vegas, which is what we call Lexington, KY around here.


That's better than what we call Lexington here in East TN. HAHA! I kid, I kid, just a little friendly SEC rivalry. And interestingly enough, they refer to Knoxville as Knox Vegas. A lot of wishing going on apparently.


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## bertholomey

AtlasMick said:


> Oops, actually in KY. I meant to put Lex Vegas, which is what we call Lexington, KY around here.


Funny - I flew into Nashville today and drove up to Madisonville, KY


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## Audiophilefred

C12xl killers? Dam now I'm listening


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## strakele

Souldrop said:


> Any plans to do a similar platform in a 10?


I'm interested in the answer to this as well.


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## onebadmonte

How much $ ?


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## foreman

Earlier in tue thread Nick said $500 ish is the target







onebadmonte said:


> How much $ ?


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## PatFitz9

Guess it's time to sell my mkIV's


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## onebadmonte

Any thoughs of including a removable grill like some of the JL products?


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## nucci

I want one in a front footwell...

I already had plans to try another MKIV up front as I have one in an upward-firing trunk box.


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## buguy

I cant even imagine something being better than the IV. I was at a red light yesterday and whatever song was on must have hit a random ultra low note and I thought someone ran into the back of my car. Love that sub!


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## james2266

OOooooohhhh...... I was considering grabbing an mk4 before but was worried about giving it too much power and possibly not getting enough output for my needs. Also, the wife lost her job which shelved all my plans for a while. This V really does seem to answer all of these concerns. I think I might just have to find a way to try one of these things out. Hopefully, by the time it is available, our financial situation will have improved drastically.

Funny about that c12xl killer comment as that is one of the first things that went through my mind. If it that good then it will be an absolute must have for me. Half the box size requirement and half the price? Sounds like a major win if it does compare to the Illusion driver in sq. Most definitely going to follow this one.


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## DavidRam

Awesome stuff Nick! +1 on the red, too.


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## JayinMI

captainobvious said:


> Looks like another promising woofer from you Nick. Nice job.
> 
> How much of a performance increase would a user see vs the already excellent mkIV?
> 
> I'd also love a larger diameter subwoofer with the low frequency capability of the BM mkIV with a significant increase in output. (15"?)
> 
> 
> -Steve


Gonna make Mark fit it in the glovebox? lol


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## Electrodynamic

Small update - the basket may end up being one piece. Modular is definitely very cool but after talking to a few of my vendors at CES this past week either CNC or cast may be more do-able. Modular pieces are going to raise the price to around $700. CNC or cast would keep it at/near $500.


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## kmbkk

Electrodynamic said:


> Small update - the basket may end up being one piece. Modular is definitely very cool but after talking to a few of my vendors at CES this past week either CNC or cast may be more do-able. Modular pieces are going to raise the price to around $700. CNC or cast would keep it at/near $500.


Well Nick, either way you'll have my money for at least 1...now the wait begins!


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## Bruneti

Electrodynamic said:


> Small update - the basket may end up being one piece. Modular is definitely very cool but after talking to a few of my vendors at CES this past week either CNC or cast may be more do-able. Modular pieces are going to raise the price to around $700. CNC or cast would keep it at/near $500.


That may be similar to how some of the OnCore baskets are constructed.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2222190-post105.html


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## captainobvious

JayinMI said:


> Gonna make Mark fit it in the glovebox? lol


:laugh:

No way. The mkIV is definitely the right driver for me- I'm extremely happy with it. You can only get so much performance in some areas without sacrificing in others. The mkIV does everything I want a sub to do, I just want a little more output. Simply adding some more cone area with more mkIV's is definitely the way I want to go. I couldn't fit the larger mkV up front either way


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## quality_sound

captainobvious said:


> :laugh:
> 
> No way. The mkIV is definitely the right driver for me- I'm extremely happy with it. You can only get so much performance in some areas without sacrificing in others. The mkIV does everything I want a sub to do, I just want a little more output. Simply adding some more cone area with more mkIV's is definitely the way I want to go. I couldn't fit the larger mkV up front either way


Larger? It's still a 12", right? Yeah it's a little deeper but not much. It shoudl be noticeably louder though.


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## deeppinkdiver

So should wd expect a pre-order option on these? Design looks great! I e been very close to pulling the trigger on a couple IV the last few weeks and after seeing this I may hold off for the V.

Being a CNC machinist by trade working with castings on a daily basis I cant help but wonder what type of material your considering for the basket. Im surprised there isnt an option to print your basket at a comparable shop rate. 3D printing in metals has come a long way in a short time already.. I personally have seen the progress myself with these printers, its crazy what they are capable of.. An expensive venture either way.


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## mark620

I am so onboard for this one...This site will kill any set-up you have planned. By the time you are ready to install it something else comes alone that catches your eye...This hobby is stressful.. 

I am very impressed with nicks passion to share the development of this with us. That says a lot about his quality and product. Not to many companies would do that in fear of someone duping it.


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## cajunner

I'd use the "pressure-forged" aluminum casting process used in higher end cookware on the aluminum, for a stronger design using less material.

I think the uniformity in heat distribution, is also extended to the structural integrity and harmonics of the basket resonance, as a superior manufacturing method.

of course, I know nothing about what Chinese suppliers are willing to do for a small upcharge in the material costs.


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## deeppinkdiver

mark620 said:


> This site will kill any set-up you have planned.


So true, haha.. Gotta love it though.


I agree that forgings are much stronger and have a more uniform molecular structure. Very important for this application I would think.


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## dgage

Mark620 said:


> I am so onboard for this one...This site will kill any set-up you have planned. By the time you are ready to install it something else comes alone that catches your eye...This hobby is stressful..





deeppinkdiver said:


> So true, haha.. Gotta love it though.


If you think DIYMA is bad, stay away from AVSForum...home theater can get MUCH more expensive.


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## truckguy

I'm a vote for a 4ohm DVC so it can be wired for 2ohm. Is it possible to have 2 versions of the sub? I have no idea how difficult that is for a company. I'm willing to beg if needed!

I have a JL 12w6V3 in an undersized .8 cube sealed box. I know I'm missing out on some low end and would love get to my hands on this sub when it comes out. My amp though puts out 1200 at 2ohms and 650 at 4ohms. I'm sure 650 would be fine but I'd rather have the headroom so I know I'm giving the sub all the power it needs plus a little extra. Would it be an even swap or an improvement if I did go through with it? JLw6v3 in .8 cube sealed with 1200 watts vs SI V in correct size sealed box at 650?


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## casey

looks like the mkV will have 18mm vs the jl's 19mm one way excursion. im sure cone area is going to be about the same as well. Output difference between 1200 and 650 is going to be less than 3db. The SI will have more low end.


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## 1fishman

Looking forwardto this one.
Is there a reason for the structural carriers going from 4 legs to 5 legs? It would appear to have one side stronger than the other. The 12 o'clock position looks like it will be weaker, with greater distance between support legs.




Electrodynamic said:


> Iontent/uploads/BM-mkV-ArmsAndCarrier2.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> The modular mounting lip attached to the latter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Motor attached to the latter:


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## Guest

I'm pretty sure the support legs are equidistant....


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## captainobvious

He's looking at the 5 outer legs in relation to the 4 inner legs. However, the point to look at is the contact points of the outer basket with the inner basket and it's perfectly symmetrically loaded at all 5 points. I see no issue. That said, I seriously doubt that strength will be an issue with the rigidity of the materials being used.


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## deeppinkdiver

I agree with Cap'nObvious. I do not see where strength is an issue. The inner basket has 5 mounting points (equally spaced) at the top of its top flange with spot faced through holes which allow it to directly bolt to the outer basket at its mid point evenly with each support. The bottom flange of the inner basket appears to then bolt to the top of the magnet at 4 points (also evenly spaced) which should in turn create a very rigid set up. My .02


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## Coppertone

Bottom line, Nick built it we support it, we enjoy it lol...


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## WhereAmEye?

deeppinkdiver said:


> I agree with Cap'nObvious. I do not see where strength is an issue. The inner basket has 5 mounting points (equally spaced) at the top of its top flange with spot faced through holes which allow it to directly bolt to the outer basket at its mid point evenly with each support. The bottom flange of the inner basket appears to then bolt to the top of the magnet at 4 points (also evenly spaced) which should in turn create a very rigid set up. My .02


Can't argue with a CNC machinist on structural integrity with metal parts


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## 1fishman

Edited


Coppertone said:


> Bottom line, Nick built it we support it, we enjoy it lol...


I'm sure he'll test every thing before final product


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## RandomBeat

did you ever decide on the coil config? dual 2 gets my vote...


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## Manic1!

truckguy said:


> I'm a vote for a 4ohm DVC so it can be wired for 2ohm. Is it possible to have 2 versions of the sub? I have no idea how difficult that is for a company. I'm willing to beg if needed!
> 
> I have a JL 12w6V3 in an undersized .8 cube sealed box. I know I'm missing out on some low end and would love get to my hands on this sub when it comes out. My amp though puts out 1200 at 2ohms and 650 at 4ohms. I'm sure 650 would be fine but I'd rather have the headroom so I know I'm giving the sub all the power it needs plus a little extra. Would it be an even swap or an improvement if I did go through with it? JLw6v3 in .8 cube sealed with 1200 watts vs SI V in correct size sealed box at 650?


I second that.


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## Electrodynamic

Manic1! said:


> I second that.


A dual 4 Ohm coil is an option but note that the gap geometry will not be changed to accomodate the smaller D4 coil, meaning that BL will be lower, Qts will be higher, etc. Unless you guys want to start a group buy on a D4 Ohm version and you are able to reach an MOQ of 100pcs for D4 configuration pre-order at which point I will revise the gap geometry to accomodate a D4 Ohm coil.


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## Coppertone

Well let me start the party by putting myself down for one please.


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## Treesive

Electrodynamic said:


> A dual 4 Ohm coil is an option but note that the gap geometry will not be changed to accomodate the smaller D4 coil, meaning that BL will be lower, Qts will be higher, etc. Unless you guys want to start a group buy on a D4 Ohm version and you are able to reach an MOQ of 100pcs for D4 configuration pre-order at which point I will revise the gap geometry to accomodate a D4 Ohm coil.


I have enough amps in my arsenal that I will get proper power at whatever ohm load. Perks of being an amp hoarder!!


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## foreman

Nick, for those of us that may have limited power at 4 ohms, what will it take to get these to jam out do you think?  400-500ish watts make it happen or will it need closer to 650?


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## dgage

foreman said:


> Nick, for those of us that may have limited power at 4 ohms, what will it take to get these to jam out do you think?  400-500ish watts make it happen or will it need closer to 650?


And to coincide with that question...what about the MKIV at 650w compared to the MKV at 400w? I'm seriously wondering if there would be a $200 performance difference there. Which brings me to another question...since there are several of us asking about D4, will the MKIV be completely retired after the MKV comes out or might you continue to offer both? Probably a long shot but worth the ask since there is a price difference and potential situations where a MKIV might fit better for some. Either way...awesome job in don'tI using to push the envelope and I prove your offerings.


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## dgage

1fishman said:


> Looking forwardto this one.
> Is there a reason for the structural carriers going from 4 legs to 5 legs? It would appear to have one side stronger than the other. The 12 o'clock position looks like it will be weaker, with greater distance between support legs.


Assuming the 4 legs are strong enough, which I assume they would be, there is also the thought that going from 5 to 4 will reduce the chances of amplified resonance. We'd have to take the mass of each component but if you had a 5 leg support and a 5 leg mount with similar mass, their resonant frequencies could potentially be additive and MIGHT be audible. By making sure the masses are different, any resonant frequency of one component would be different from the resonant frequency of another component. 

Might not be applicable with the steel/aluminum components here but when I build sub boxes, I make sure to unevenly brace the different walls of the enclosure to ensure all supported sides result in mismatched sizes of unsupported walls. An example would be a 12" wall; I'd put the brace at 5" or 7" as opposed to right in the center. A 5" wall and a 7" wall have different resonant frequencies while a pair of 6" unsupported walls would have the same resonant frequency, which would be additive and in the worst case scenario...audible.


----------



## kmbkk

dgage said:


> And to coincide with that question...what about the MKIV at 650w compared to the MKV at 400w? I'm seriously wondering if there would be a $200 performance difference there. Which brings me to another question...since there are several of us asking about D4, will the MKIV be completely retired after the MKV comes out or might you continue to offer both? Probably a long shot but worth the ask since there is a price difference and potential situations where a MKIV might fit better for some. Either way...awesome job in don'tI using to push the envelope and I prove your offerings.


A couple of things:

1. You have the power ratings off, it's 750 watts for the V (projected) and 450 watts for the IV

2. Nick has already stated he's discontinued the IV and there won't be anymore after his current stock is exhausted.


----------



## dgage

kmbkk said:


> A couple of things:
> 
> 1. You have the power ratings off, it's 750 watts for the V (projected) and 450 watts for the IV
> 
> 2. Nick has already stated he's discontinued the IV and there won't be anymore after his current stock is exhausted.


1. Nope. That's what my amp can put out at 2 and 4 ohms. I know I'm giving a little more to the MKIV but I'm careful...usually.

2. Thanks. Figured but didn't remember reading it.


----------



## truckguy

dgage said:


> 1. Nope. That's what my amp can put out at 2 and 4 ohms. I know I'm giving a little more to the MKIV but I'm careful...usually.
> 
> 2. Thanks. Figured but didn't remember reading it.


I need a new sub like a hole in the head but it so tempting. I'm with you on the debating with my amp, 2 vs 4ohm, and the amount of power I'll be sending the V. It would be great if the 2ohm version had with same specs as Nick stated above. For me, a smaller enclosure, better low end and SQ than my current sub might push me over. Especially for the 2ohm.


----------



## kmbkk

dgage said:


> 1. Nope. That's what my amp can put out at 2 and 4 ohms. I know I'm giving a little more to the MKIV but I'm careful...usually.
> 
> 2. Thanks. Figured but didn't remember reading it.


My apologies, I misunderstood what you were saying. I got it now!


----------



## kmbkk

Double post


----------



## 1fishman

dgage said:


> Assuming the 4 legs are strong enough, which I assume they would be, there is also the thought that going from 5 to 4 will reduce the chances of amplified resonance. We'd have to take the mass of each component but if you had a 5 leg support and a 5 leg mount with similar mass, their resonant frequencies could potentially be additive and MIGHT be audible. By making sure the masses are different, any resonant frequency of one component would be different from the resonant frequency of another component.
> 
> Might not be applicable with the steel/aluminum components here but when I build sub boxes, I make sure to unevenly brace the different walls of the enclosure to ensure all supported sides result in mismatched sizes of unsupported walls. An example would be a 12" wall; I'd put the brace at 5" or 7" as opposed to right in the center. A 5" wall and a 7" wall have different resonant frequencies while a pair of 6" unsupported walls would have the same resonant frequency, which would be additive and in the worst case scenario...audible.


That's on the line of what i was thinking. I do see the 4 leg's load issue, but my first attention went to the horizontal section of the load transfer points. I Never notice this kind of design before, it will be interesting.


----------



## Electrodynamic

1fishman said:


> That's on the line of what i was thinking. I do see the 4 leg's load issue, but my first attention went to the horizontal section of the load transfer points. I Never notice this kind of design before, it will be interesting.


How did this conversation go towards an erroneous amount of legs of the basket? The basket has five (5) arms, not four (4). The legs are very thick and will have ZERO audible effect on the sound. You may want to ask every other manufacturer the same question even if they use stamped steel as the material is MUCH thinner and will resonate more than cast aluminum. Long story short those baskets do not resonate as you have eluded to which means that wether we used 4 arms or 5 arms does not hold any negative impact on the performance of the woofer. But if anyone has any Klippel data supporting four thick cast aluminum arms resonating more than five thick cast aluminum arms I would like to see it.


----------



## WhiteL02

I already have the Mark IV and what a great sub, but the V just might make in into the car with a new amp if dual 2 ohm. Can't wait to see final outcome!


----------



## Guest

It sure sounds like the mark V version will take the wonderful virtues of the III and IV and improve upon them exponentially....!

Wonderful stuff coming out of NC... So glad for your success and your active membership here !


----------



## foreman

Now, to set money aside until the prebuy!!!


----------



## 2010hummerguy

foreman said:


> Now, to set money aside until the prebuy!!!


Already planning to trade the Esotar for the MKV?


----------



## captainobvious

Electrodynamic said:


> How did this conversation go towards an erroneous amount of legs of the basket? The basket has five (5) arms, not four (4). The legs are very thick and will have ZERO audible effect on the sound. You may want to ask every other manufacturer the same question even if they use stamped steel as the material is MUCH thinner and will resonate more than cast aluminum. Long story short those baskets do not resonate as you have eluded to which means that wether we used 4 arms or 5 arms does not hold any negative impact on the performance of the woofer. But if anyone has any Klippel data supporting four thick cast aluminum arms resonating more than five thick cast aluminum arms I would like to see it.




When I hold the 4 cast aluminum leg basket to my ear I hear more vibration when the aliens fly overhead than when I hold the 5 cast aluminum leg basket in the same place. But when I wear my aluminum foil hat to keep the death rays and NSA out, it also eliminates the vibration from both the 4 leg and 5 leg cast aluminum models.




:uhoh:

:uhoh:

:biggrinflip:

:freak:


:rolleyes2:


----------



## foreman

Haha, no i dont know if ill ever get rid of that sub, but id love to try out the new sub. Just a junkie i guess 




Architect7 said:


> Already planning to trade the Esotar for the MKV?


----------



## 2010hummerguy

foreman said:


> Haha, no i dont know if ill ever get rid of that sub, but id love to try out the new sub. Just a junkie i guess


LOL likewise, definitely not passing this one up!


----------



## Bruneti

Nick - I have a JL HD900/5 amp that I am planning on installing with a BM MKIV. The HD amps are somewhat unique with the same max sub channel output (500W) from 1.5-4 ohm loads. Would there be any appreciable difference in output or performance between the MKIV (dual4 [email protected]) and MKV (dual2 [email protected]) if they are both getting max 500W? Same enclosure volume, same power. It doesn't seem like I would be taking advantage of the MKV's capability unless I had more power on tap. Then it has a clear power handling and output advantage over the MKIV. Is this accurate?


----------



## 1fishman

Electrodynamic said:


> How did this conversation go towards an erroneous amount of legs of the basket? The basket has five (5) arms, not four (4). The legs are very thick and will have ZERO audible effect on the sound. You may want to ask every other manufacturer the same question even if they use stamped steel as the material is MUCH thinner and will resonate more than cast aluminum. Long story short those baskets do not resonate as you have eluded to which means that wether we used 4 arms or 5 arms does not hold any negative impact on the performance of the woofer. But if anyone has any Klippel data supporting four thick cast aluminum arms resonating more than five thick cast aluminum arms I would like to see it.


_ My concerns have nothing to do with the load on the legs, or strength of the legs, it has to do with the horizontal surface of the motor carrier that support the 5 arms._

Maybe i'm reading your drawing wrong. But what I see is 5 "arms" attached to the "motor carrier" which has 4 legs, and combined these supports the motor. 
Simple put, It's like a 5 leg table, on top of a 4 leg table (motor carrier). 

Like a kitchen table, these tables have strong points, and weak points. *A table can support much more weight when the load is directly over it's legs*,(strong point) the further from the legs you move the load the more the table bows, bends, flexes & possibly fails. 

In your drawing, the 5 leg table is transferring it's load to some week points and some stronger points of the 4 leg table. The weakest load transfer points are on one side of the 4 table, and the stronger load transfer point are on the other side. So the strength of this structure does not look symmetrical. 

I originally thought you did this on purpose for some reason unknown to me and that's why i asked about it. 

Hey, I know a little bit about metal construction, but I don't know squat about speakers construction, in my line of work a drawing like this would raise concerns, with your speaker it may not matter much if at all, but a speakers can pound with 700 watts (1 hp) of power. So maybe it was the worth discussion.

The modular basket arms mated to the spider landing and motor carrier:


----------



## captainobvious

Would you have slept better at night if the outside ring had 4 legs and 4 symmetrically spaced connection points? More connection points means more strength, so 5 would be better than 4 on the outer ring, no? 

How about if the entire carrier were a solid piece with 5 connection points on the outside, symmetrically spaced for connection of the legs, and 4 inside connection points symmetrically spaced for the motor? It appears to be a perfectly sound design. We're not talking about wood here. Its thick, cast aluminum. I'd venture to guess it's actually OVER-built, not under- especially for this application.


----------



## 1fishman

captainobvious said:


> Would you have slept better at night if the outside ring had 4 legs and 4 symmetrically spaced connection points? More connection points means more strength, *so 5 would be better than 4 on the outer ring, no? *


*Actually no. * 
In a case like this 4 Arms/legs should very well be stronger than 5 misplaced arms. You and I both know that the further from support leg a load gets the integrity weakens in some cases exponentially. 
Tension/ compression strength can be many times stronger than the shear strength of a given metal. 

Like in the kitchen table example, the compression/tension load over a support leg can hold a 1000bs were 100 lbs in the center can cause bowing. 



captainobvious said:


> How about if the entire carrier were a solid piece with 5 connection points on the outside, symmetrically spaced for connection of the legs, and 4 inside connection points symmetrically spaced for the motor? It appears to be a perfectly sound design. We're not talking about wood here. Its thick, cast aluminum. I'd venture to guess it's actually OVER-built, not under- especially for this application.


I'm not saying its not strong enough for the job, there's not enough info here to determine that. I'm just saying the strength is not equal. 

I originally brought this up because I thought it might have a reason for this type of offset, and i always want to learn new things.
Edit. My intent was not to be critical of this design. I'm just a curios person. I enjoy my BMIV and look forward to the TM65s.


----------



## legend94

It's a ****ing miracle that we have a company like SI on this forum so willing to share design information and be so helpful. 

Could you please take this bs somewhere else. The history of the subs designer speaks for itself.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

^ Amen! And to that clever note I love what we have seen so far and can not wait to see more, if you decide to continue to share here Nick.

I would like to try one of these as soon as possible, I missed out on the MK IV first go round and plan to not let that happen again this go round.

Thank You Nick for what you do, thank you for your efforts and your epic transparency regardless of some trying to tare the walls down of the structure you build your company on. Pun intended.


----------



## quality_sound

^^^that. I kick myself every day for not getting in on the MkIV pre-sale. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2010hummerguy

legend94 said:


> It's a ****ing miracle that we have a company like SI on this forum so willing to share design information and be so helpful.
> 
> Could you please take this bs somewhere else. The history of the subs designer speaks for itself.


Agreed. It's not like the sub is being designed for a 300lb man to jump up and down on it.


----------



## dgage

I think we should look at Nick's track record at SI. What has he really done? What successful products has he released? 

I could talk about several/many of his products but it doesn't matter. I liked his HS24 so much I started a home theater subwoofer company based on it.


----------



## foreman

Holy Sh!^ that looks sweet! 
Nick, who gets to test the prototype?


----------



## cajunner

it's probably going to be one-piece cast and not modular anyway, leaving various changes in size and proportion up to the designer and parts supplier negotiations.


so, whether or not it is proportionally symmetrical in load bearing between support stanchions, it is unlikely to be unsubstantial to the point of failure and flexural modulus creating destructive resonances within the basket.

I think the design is probably 30% or more, aesthetic and having no benefit towards sonics, but that is a very uneducated guess. The 70% of the animal that does work to move air, is well-proportioned and uses known acceptable engineering principles so any worry towards cost/benefit ratios are less supportable, based on these preliminary idea sketches.

Is 30% a lot? Maybe, but not in commercial sales viability, as there are hugely disproportionate outlays of capital based on aesthetics and not on performance, in most all products available on the market today.


we won't be sending these subwoofers into space, there is no maxim that underlines a theoretical point at which the product must perform, beyond the obvious bouncing around in a car trunk or whatever...

but all of that is just why it's great to peek under the curtain of the wizards of audio, who sketch out their dreams and then work to turn them into sale-worthy product. If being an armchair speaker designer is a sin, let me cast the first stone...


----------



## jriggs

quality_sound said:


> ^^^that. I kick myself every day for not getting in on the MkIV pre-sale.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Really, you can still get one for $30 more than previous sale. $30 has been stopping you?


----------



## quality_sound

jriggs said:


> Really, you can still get one for $30 more than previous sale. $30 has been stopping you?


Last I looked it was more than that. At this point though, I'll just wait for the V.


----------



## rxonmymind

captainobvious said:


> Would you have slept better at night if the outside ring had 4 legs and 4 symmetrically spaced connection points? More connection points means more strength, so 5 would be better than 4 on the outer ring, no?
> 
> How about if the entire carrier were a solid piece with 5 connection points on the outside, symmetrically spaced for connection of the legs, and 4 inside connection points symmetrically spaced for the motor? It appears to be a perfectly sound design. We're not talking about wood here. Its thick, cast aluminum. I'd venture to guess it's actually OVER-built, not under- especially for this application.


Titanium. That's what we need. Ti-ta-ni-um. See? Problem solved.


----------



## Bruneti

I don't claim to have an understanding of all the forces involved, but 5 arms on the motor carrier spaced the same as the 5 modular basket arms might be a more even distribution of the loads. I have trust that Nick will have a good design. This may be a new concept for him, but it isn't his first rodeo...


----------



## foreman

Holy crap forget the arms!!!!!!!!!!! The only arms i care about are my 2 arms! When i'm taking it from the delivery guy and loading it in the box


----------



## TadCat

And I was so set on picking up some of those mag re-releases xD


----------



## Electrodynamic

6 layer copper coil pictures:


----------



## Electrodynamic

Bruneti said:


> I don't claim to have an understanding of all the forces involved, but 5 arms on the motor carrier spaced the same as the 5 modular basket arms might be a more even distribution of the loads. I have trust that Nick will have a good design. This may be a new concept for him, but it isn't his first rodeo...


Do you have FEM data to support your post knowing all of the dimenstions of all of the parts (which I have not posted)? I am all for FEM analysis to back up a post. Contrary to popular belief I have been around the block a few times and know that this design will work (unless imperical FEM data is presented that proves otherwise).


----------



## legend94

Will you be at the Greensboro meet coming up? If so I can walk you through my thought process of your design


----------



## Electrodynamic

legend94 said:


> Will you be at the Greensboro meet coming up? If so I can walk you through my thought process of your design


You are more than welcome to talk to me about the design but the design is finalized. With the thirty years of design experience involved in this woofer there is little/zero space for revisions. We can shoot the $hit though!


----------



## legend94

Electrodynamic said:


> You are more than welcome to talk to me about the design but the design is finalized. With the thirty years of design experience involved in this woofer there is little/zero space for revisions. We can shoot the $hit though!


In the time it takes to shake hands I could tell you all I know about speaker design :laugh:

I just wanted to know if you would be there this year with any gear on display


----------



## Electrodynamic

I don't think any of the tooling willl be done before the Greensboro meet so I won't have any parts. I may swing by my machine shop and see if they can make a sample modular basket in a few weeks.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

Electrodynamic said:


> I have been keeping this drivers development...by March or April 2015.


Can this driver be mounted infinite baffle?


----------



## jsnstanley

Any thoughts on the mounting ring design to further enhance it’s space saving capabilities? Such as being able to mount one or more in tighter/closer tolerances.


----------



## JSM-FA5

Subscribed! I've hears great things about the mkIV. Might have to give this one a try!


----------



## Electrodynamic

Parts are tooled and samples have been produced. 

Three things first:
1) The carrier was made out of fireproof ABS plastic and not aluminum. 
2) The logo on the dust cap/dome looks great!
3) The surround turned out perfect.

Pictures:

Carrier and surround:

















Dust cap/dome:

















The carrier being plastic instead of aluminum only presented one concern and that is weight. The five armed aluminum carrier weighed the exact same as the eight armed plastic carrier found on the mkIV. You might be thinking "less weight equals faster bass" but you would be wrong. Weight is needed to play low in a small sealed cabinet so the weight needs to be the same on the two pieces, or stay the same overall. My initial drawing also had "plastic" in the materials designation because I modified the mkIV's plastic drawing to make the mkV drawing so it was partially my mistake why the new carrier is plastic instead of aluminum. You can state something until you are blue in the face but manufacturing goes by what is in the drawing. 

The good news is multi-faceted: Mass is easy to add to the assembly of the carrier and dome to bring it back up to spec. The spider has sewn-on flat leads. If the carrier was aluminum and the driver was taken up to full stroke the back of the carrier would hit the top of the spider causing a short / spark / fire.  Plastic will not cause any issues even if the driver is being beaten on an the back of the carrier hits the top of the spider. 

The parts shown in this post along with the new coils are being shipped over to me early next week which means I may have them in my hands by end of next week. 

I have two manufacturers quoting the basket as a one-piece basket. Multiple piece basket was going to be really neat but unfortunately it is very expensive compared to a single tooling. I also have two local machinists quoting me for sample single-piece baskets. I hope to have fully functional samples by the end of this month.


----------



## kmbkk

Looks great Nick! I, like most everyone else appreciate the updates and transparency. I can't wait to get my hands on one!


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Looks very nice Nick. Im also looking forward to getting one as soon as they are available.

I love to hear machinist mentioned in this hobby  We can make anything!


----------



## Electrodynamic

deeppinkdiver said:


> Looks very nice Nick. Im also looking forward to getting one as soon as they are available.
> 
> I love to hear machinist mentioned in this hobby  We can make anything!


Thanks.  

Can you shoot me an email at the main email address listed on my site? I'm having a hard time getting responses back from local machinists, or they are too busy, etc. If you have some time I'd like for you to take a look at the IGS file for the assembled one-piece basket and see if you can give me a quote.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Absolutely. Id be glad to try and help. Email coming soon!


----------



## Electrodynamic

Also a bunch of good news: The soft parts showed up today and to my surprise the BM mkV coil/carrier/surround/dome weigh within 5g of the BM mkIV's coil/carrier/surround/diaphragm. You read that correctl- the BM mkV's 3" coil and associated parts weigh the same as the BM mkIV's 2.5" coil and associated parts. 

The dome is raw aluminum that has been finished and then the logo "printed" on. I used quotes around the word "printed" because it's not printed but is rather etched onto the aluminum. The finish looks really good and really raw / natural.

Picture of the assembly on my desk:









Side view of the dome:


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Very cool


----------



## seafish

Please, please, PLEASE consider eventually making a 10" version of this sub.


----------



## rton20s

I think I know where you are sourcing your domes from...


----------



## piyush7243

Very nice. Attaining the same weight as mkIV is a great achievement as the voice coil is 3 inch now


----------



## casey

Looks awesome Nick. These things are going to pound. If I wasnt so happy with my 2 MkIV(finally got some reliable amp power on them!) Id get these. These are going to blow peoples minds for clarity and output.


----------



## Viggen

deeppinkdiver said:


> I love to hear machinist mentioned in this hobby  We can make anything!


For me it's not just the word machinist.... But LOCAL machinist!!

Thank you for not outsourcing everything to China! Scary world we live in and it's great to see products made stateside. Makes me want to throw one (or two) of these in my miata.... If they will fit


----------



## seafish

Viggen said:


> For me it's not just the word machinist.... But LOCAL machinist!!
> 
> Thank you for not outsourcing everything to China! Scary world we live in and it's great to see products made stateside. Makes me want to throw one (or two) of these in my miata.... If they will fit


Wait a minute, your Miata was made in Japan... lol


----------



## Weightless

Yeah, but it's a japanese brand car. Si is an american brand.


----------



## Viggen

seafish said:


> Wait a minute, your Miata was made in Japan... lol


Japan > China and It's also my first japanese car due to no other options


----------



## seafish

Hey I was just teasing…the cats been out of the bag for losing US jobs to overseas production for decades now, though it IS about to get a lot worse if the corporate endowed US congress passes the new Trans Pacific Free Trade Agreement, of which you don't even hear a whisper about on the corporate endowed US media. 

OOOPS….I'll shuddup now, NOT trying to derail an awesome build thread.


----------



## cajunner

1fishman said:


> Edit. My intent was not to be critical of this design. I'm just a curios person. I enjoy my BMIV and look forward to the TM65s.


as a site dedicated to free thinker mentality, it is my opinion that you shouldn't have to substantiate your concerns as to whether or not they are critical, or intrude on the designer's design choices.

some people here will disagree, saying that just having the designers here willing to share the details of their process, is everything we need.

I submit that the designers here are using these details, as "grass roots" advertising materials that cost very little, and if the back and forth by people interested in the design process actually wears a little of that freebie advertising down, the cost of this kind of advertising should be taken into account.


if it's basically nothing to put out details of a new design, in the hopes of attracting seed money in the form of a pre-sale, then how do you take away something from nothing?

The net result is overwhelmingly positive and the designer who is willing to defend their design based on aesthetic grounds, or accept that it is not 100% engineered for maximum response, should be something that is accommodated, or at least accepted in the round.


it's not Audiobahn's chromed out bling, after all...


----------



## legend94

Viggen said:


> For me it's not just the word machinist.... But LOCAL machinist!!
> 
> Thank you for not outsourcing everything to China! Scary world we live in and it's great to see products made stateside. Makes me want to throw one (or two) of these in my miata.... If they will fit


Are these going to be made in the US?


----------



## Viggen

seafish said:


> Hey I was just teasing…


I know you were  

Living in Dayton, Ohio... which USE to be the tool and die capital of the world.... hopefully it will not get wors


----------



## Treesive

Viggen said:


> I know you were
> 
> Living in Dayton, Ohio... which USE to be the tool and die capital of the world.... hopefully it will not get wors


Yeah Dayton took a beating the past several years as with American manufacturing in general. I am also in the tool and die/ manufacturing business.


----------



## Treesive

seafish said:


> Hey I was just teasing…the cats been out of the bag for losing US jobs to overseas production for decades now, though it IS about to get a lot worse if the corporate endowed US congress passes the new Trans Pacific Free Trade Agreement, of which you don't even hear a whisper about on the corporate endowed US media.
> 
> OOOPS….I'll shuddup now, NOT trying to derail an awesome build thread.


Thumbs UP :2thumbsup: for knowing about the TPP. If only the rest of America cared about real life issues. Sorry for off topic reply...


----------



## Electrodynamic

legend94 said:


> Are these going to be made in the US?


Yes. I will be personally assembling all of the mkV's.


----------



## Electrodynamic

rton20s said:


> I think I know where you are sourcing your domes from...


Haha, that's awesome.


----------



## Viggen

Treesive said:


> Yeah Dayton took a beating the past several years as with American manufacturing in general. I am also in the tool and die/ manufacturing business.


Do you happen to work at one of the casket companies? I have a body shop ..... I mean funeral home


----------



## Treesive

Viggen said:


> Do you happen to work at one of the casket companies? I have a body shop ..... I mean funeral home



Haha, no they are across town. I'm literally in the tool and die trade although we are mainly a manufacturing company now. 

Batesville Tool & Die


----------



## Electrodynamic

cajunner said:


> as a site dedicated to free thinker mentality, it is my opinion that you shouldn't have to substantiate your concerns as to whether or not they are critical, or intrude on the designer's design choices.
> 
> some people here will disagree, saying that just having the designers here willing to share the details of their process, is everything we need.
> 
> I submit that the designers here are using these details, as "grass roots" advertising materials that cost very little, and if the back and forth by people interested in the design process actually wears a little of that freebie advertising down, the cost of this kind of advertising should be taken into account.
> 
> 
> if it's basically nothing to put out details of a new design, in the hopes of attracting seed money in the form of a pre-sale, then how do you take away something from nothing?
> 
> The net result is overwhelmingly positive and the designer who is willing to defend their design based on aesthetic grounds,* or accept that it is not 100% engineered for maximum response,* should be something that is accommodated, or at least accepted in the round.
> 
> 
> it's not Audiobahn's chromed out bling, after all...



Now do I care about how it looks? Yes. I'd much rather spend hours in CAD to design a basket that meets all the design criteria for the speaker but also looks good rather than hollow out a brick with a spoon in hopes that the parts glue up in the right spots. Yes I care about how it looks but I care about how it performs primary. But why not design a great performing speaker that also looks good? I don't want a troll covered in turds to be the focal point of my subwoofer system when I show someone "here is my subwoofer."


----------



## dgage

I want a carbon fiber basket on my HS24s as the current ones look ugly.  Let me guess, you were more focused on the outstanding performance than how it looked? Just kidding!


----------



## kmbkk

Electrodynamic said:


> Now do I care about how it looks? Yes. I'd much rather spend hours in CAD to design a basket that meets all the design criteria for the speaker but also looks good rather than hollow out a brick with a spoon in hopes that the parts glue up in the right spots. Yes I care about how it looks but I care about how it performs primary. But why not design a great performing speaker that also looks good? I don't want a troll covered in turds to be the focal point of my subwoofer system when I show someone "here is my subwoofer."


If only we could make a sub look like a boob that performs well...I'd buy 2!


----------



## subwoofery

kmbkk said:


> If only we could make a sub look like a boob that performs well...I'd buy 2!


You'd pay for boobs? Would not like to be in your shoes 

Kelvin


----------



## dgage

subwoofery said:


> You'd pay for boobs? Would not like to be in your shoes
> 
> Kelvin


No you boob...he said he'd buy specially shaped subwoofers.


----------



## kmbkk

subwoofery said:


> You'd pay for boobs? Would not like to be in your shoes
> 
> Kelvin


Don't need to pay for boobs, just looking for the breast sub!


----------



## subwoofery

kmbkk said:


> Don't, need to pay for books, just looking for the breast sub!


Don't need breast subs... Just need the right enclosure: 











Kelvin


----------



## deeppinkdiver

^ hahaaa there you go! Sweet


----------



## rxonmymind

seafish said:


> Please, please, PLEASE consider eventually making a 10" version of this sub.


Ooohh. That would be a battle of the Titans. JL Audio vs SI. Both made in the USA. Pay per view please! :laugh: 

seriously though MUCH appreciation for the making of this sub and providing jobs here. Cool beans. Thanks.

Let me also add that even though I have the JL I'd SOMEHOW find a reason to buy a 10" version. Maybe even two.


----------



## Electrodynamic

rxonmymind said:


> Ooohh. That would be a battle of the Titans. JL Audio vs SI. Both made in the USA. Pay per view please! :laugh:
> 
> seriously though MUCH appreciation for the making of this sub and providing jobs here. Cool beans. Thanks.
> 
> *Let me also add that even though I have the JL I'd SOMEHOW find a reason to buy a 10" version. Maybe even two.*


If someone wants to organize a 10" version buy-in with 100% deposit for 100pcs I will make a 10" version. Literally that is what it will take for me to make a 10" version of this woofer. Every other "please make a 10" version" request has resulted in a 20pcs or 30pcs of actual orders [other companies I have managed] which is not enough to justify putting forth the capitol for a 10" version of the BM mkV unless 100pcs are sold/ordered.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

Electrodynamic said:


> If someone wants to organize a 10" version buy-in with 100% deposit for 100pcs I will make a 10" version. Literally that is what it will take for me to make a 10" version of this woofer. Every other "please make a 10" version" request has resulted in a 20pcs or 30pcs of actual orders [other companies I have managed] which is not enough to justify putting forth the capitol for a 10" version of the BM mkV unless 100pcs are sold/ordered.


Wow, that is a great idea. I'm curious did you hit that 100 mark with 12" you are creating. Or have you started taking orders for it yet?


----------



## foreman

I don't know about all that, i just wish Nick would hurry with the prebuy so he can take my money!!!!!


----------



## seafish

I'd be in on a 10" version.


----------



## Electrodynamic

Huckleberry Sound said:


> Wow, that is a great idea. I'm curious did you hit that 100 mark with 12" you are creating. Or have you started taking orders for it yet?


I haven't started taking any pre-orders for the BM mkV 12" yet as I am still waiting on the prototype motors and baskets to arrive. I am moving ahead with the 12" size because I know it sells and I personally like 12's over 10's. I am fully aware that some people simply cannot fit a 12" speaker in their install (under truck seats, etc) but a lot of people can fit a shallow 12". The BM mkIV was/is only available in a 12" size and it has been a great success, hence me moving forward with an upgraded version of it in the same diameter. 

Pre-order the mkV will definitely crest over any quanitity requirements. Again, I've seen it happen a LOT where people say they want 10's only to not order when 10's become available. There is too much tooling in these woofers to come out with a different size and have it flop. Literally everything will need to be re-tooled except the coil and the motor. That's a new basket, surround, carrier, and dome that would need tooled up in order to make a 10" version.

So in closing - no 10" version. Right now I am focused on perfecting the 12" BM mkV for its release. Only after the 12" BM mkV is realesed will I entertain the idea of a smaller 10" size with the previously outlined order criteria as a must to make sure the cost of tooling all the parts will be covered / worth it.


----------



## skippytech

ErinH said:


> is it me, or is the rendering just really cool looking? Definitely nice to see Nick's progression. Now, I'm waiting for Nick to start making some 3" mids.


 I will second that. Wouldnt that be something? Mkv tm65 and 3"mid. Just the thought makes me teary eyed. Thanks Nick for the great products, cant wait to get my mkiv installed. Now you got me thinking about the mkv. I was already thinking of getting a second mkiv. The mkv will add that much more!!
No need for a second sub,Drooling


----------



## kmbkk

Nick are you still looking at a late April-May time frame for the MkV pre-order?


----------



## Electrodynamic

kmbkk said:


> Nick are you still looking at a late April-May time frame for the MkV pre-order?


Honestly pre-order is the last thing on my mind. The first, and most important, thing on my mind is getting this driver dialed in 100% before I initiate production.


----------



## Treesive

Electrodynamic said:


> Honestly pre-order is the last thing on my mind. The first, and most important, thing on my mind is getting this driver dialed in 100% before I initiate production.


I like where your mind is. Put 100% into it. Don't just throw something half done on the market because of our impatience. We will get over it when we see the final product.


----------



## GoMax

Just ordered a mkIV, but I'm glad to see these being engineered and built. How cool is it to see someone make something awesome from the ground up. 

Can't wait to see how it all turns out!


----------



## A-Ron

Sub!! I want 2&#55357;&#56842;


----------



## aznlunatic

I'm probably in for two when pre orders come up, not in a hurry since I currently own two MKIV's running off channel 5&6 from a arc audio xdi 1200.6 so I'm curious how the new MKv's perform off 300 watts, if need be I'll get a arc audio xdi 1100.1 to power the new mkv's and sell my two MKIV's


----------



## ntimd8n-k5

In for updates


----------



## Electrodynamic

Still waiting to hear back from US CNC manufacturers before I make the call and move the CNC work overseas for the sample baskets. Chinese new year just ended so the vendors are just now getting back into the swing of things. Hopefully the two sample motors will be completed before this weeks end.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

^ this sounds more promising than everything else we know at this point.


----------



## diy.phil

Maybe should look for CNC shops in Mexico too. That seems to be the in thing lately. Big companies set up shops across the border as labor costs less. Some US CNC companies do this too (added factories there for production, while their sales/account services are still in the US). Sometimes they set up in Canada too. It's far enough to cost less (labor/operations cost) and close enough they can hear us since everyone is in the same/similar time zones. Shipping/trucking stuff across the border isn't a problem (much faster than across a really big ocean, and then the west coast port guys decide to go on strike too often). The more labor intensive (people/time/ manual work) is involved, the lower the cost becomes. Maybe just tell them to match the other overseas prices if they can do it.


----------



## Electrodynamic

diy.phil said:


> Maybe should look for CNC shops in Mexico too. That seems to be the in thing lately. Big companies set up shops across the border as labor costs less. Some US CNC companies do this too (added factories there for production, while their sales/account services are still in the US). Sometimes they set up in Canada too. It's far enough to cost less (labor/operations cost) and close enough they can hear us since everyone is in the same/similar time zones. Shipping/trucking stuff across the border isn't a problem (much faster than across a really big ocean, and then the west coast port guys decide to go on strike too often). The more labor intensive (people/time/ manual work) is involved, the lower the cost becomes. Maybe just tell them to match the other overseas prices if they can do it.


What experience do you have with international import shipments? Have you performed the due dilegence for import tax on various countires? How much _less_ does it cost to import from Canada from any other country?

Cutting everything short - I am NOT going to change my ways and adjust who/what I use to make my speakers. I am a direct company. My customers want the best product they can purchase for a moderate cost. They are not after a "cheap" solution. The Canadian example is far from a cost effective solution. If my customers were after a "cheap" solution they would have purchased Funky Pup subwoofers. 

I do not, and will not, detail the import tax of the parts that I use. Flat-out, I am a professional that is providing the best possible solution for the DIY community. If you feel like you can do better, by all means go ahead and start your own companny and provide a better product for the money.

Sitting here reading your post makes me think of your misunderstanding of my posts. If you think that I have not considered every other solution speaks volumes of what you think about how I/we are going about this woofer. ...which makes me consider not posting any data at all on this forum. 

As of this moment I am going silent and will release data upon full 100% completion. 

Have fun guys.


----------



## brumledb

Well damn.


----------



## Treesive

diy.phil said:


> Maybe should look for CNC shops in Mexico too. That seems to be the in thing lately. Big companies set up shops across the border as labor costs less. Some US CNC companies do this too (added factories there for production, while their sales/account services are still in the US). Sometimes they set up in Canada too. It's far enough to cost less (labor/operations cost) and close enough they can hear us since everyone is in the same/similar time zones. Shipping/trucking stuff across the border isn't a problem (much faster than across a really big ocean, and then the west coast port guys decide to go on strike too often). The more labor intensive (people/time/ manual work) is involved, the lower the cost becomes. Maybe just tell them to match the other overseas prices if they can do it.


No more talking... I like being involved in the design/build operations companies have to go through to get their product just right and SI was one company who was willing to share parts of that insight with us DIY people. If you screwed that up I will not forgive you. It is his product and concept and anyone who knows him will knows Nick will strive for it to be great.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

As the world says. It only takes one.


----------



## ImK'ed

Nick is this sub going to be a dual 2? I know earlier on this was your plan


----------



## quality_sound

Huckleberry Sound said:


> As the world says. It only takes one.


And it's always the FNG


----------



## mark620

I do not think everyone who reads the thread understands Nick is out to do things the right way all around. He is not a Box store name company and looks at his product in true enthusiast form. It just sucks that one $%^& throws a wrench in a really cool experience of see how a speaker is brought to life from a idea...


----------



## 2010hummerguy

On the internet, everyone is a supply chain manager.


----------



## Electrodynamic

Architect7 said:


> On the internet, everyone is a supply chain manager.


Exactly.

Let me know what driver you guys end up coming out with. Should be killer. 

In the mean time I am going to stick to my word and not post any updates on this forum about the development of the mkV design. Updates are being posted on SI's FB page. Progress is moving along nicely.


----------



## dgage

I'm not sure if I'd trust this Nick guy with my money. He has all sorts of supply chain issues. It took him an entire two weeks to get my meager order together. oke: :laugh4:


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Holy $hit batman!!! What is all that gonna break in half? lol


----------



## dgage

Hopefully many homes...I'm starting a home theater subwoofer company.


----------



## legend94

dgage said:


> Hopefully many homes...I'm starting a home theater subwoofer company.


Which part of TN are you in?


----------



## deeppinkdiver

dgage said:


> Hopefully many homes...I'm starting a home theater subwoofer company.


Well great choice in woofers to start things off! What would be your best "all around" theater sub design? (sub, power, enclosure design of choice)


----------



## WhiteL02

WOW


----------



## Safeway

I think that other posters in this thread were unnecessarily dismissed when they brought up potential loading/flexion issue.

Do I think that the design is problematic given the level of loading and the materials being used? *NOT AT ALL.*

However, I don't think that this is the optimal arrangement, either. Regardless of a lack of testing data that quantitatively reveals the differential flexion of this assembly, it is obvious that certain mounting points will flex more than other mounting points. As shown.

Again, as I said, the level of flexion will be minuscule all around. It simply doesn't matter that it is designed this way.

Credentials: BS/MS in Engineering, with focus on materials, and practicing patent attorney working in the fields of networking, telecom, navigation, UI, materials, manufacturing processes, etc.


----------



## Treesive

Safeway said:


> I think that other posters in this thread were unnecessarily dismissed when they brought up potential loading/flexion issue.
> 
> Do I think that the design is problematic given the level of loading and the materials being used? *NOT AT ALL.*
> 
> However, I don't think that this is the optimal arrangement, either. Regardless of a lack of testing data that quantitatively reveals the differential flexion of this assembly, it is obvious that certain mounting points will flex more than other mounting points. As shown.
> 
> Again, as I said, the level of flexion will be minuscule all around. It simply doesn't matter that it is designed this way.
> 
> Credentials: BS/MS in Engineering, with focus on materials, and practicing patent attorney working in the fields of networking, telecom, navigation, UI, materials, manufacturing processes, etc.


Go make one then. I'm an engineer as well and I hate nothing more than the common engineer thought process of I am better and their design is flawed. There is no perfect. You stated yourself that it will not matter. Why even add anything after that. It does not matter.


----------



## seafish

Safeway said:


> I think that other posters in this thread were unnecessarily dismissed when they brought up potential loading/flexion issue.
> 
> Do I think that the design is problematic given the level of loading and the materials being used? *NOT AT ALL.*
> 
> However, I don't think that this is the optimal arrangement, either. Regardless of a lack of testing data that quantitatively reveals the differential flexion of this assembly, it is obvious that certain mounting points will flex more than other mounting points. As shown.
> 
> Again, as I said, the level of flexion will be minuscule all around. It simply doesn't matter that it is designed this way.
> 
> Credentials: BS/MS in Engineering, with focus on materials, and practicing patent attorney working in the fields of networking, telecom, navigation, UI, materials, manufacturing processes, etc.


What an interesting (not!!) post…you yourself dismiss the claims that you say were unnecessarily dismissed by Electrodynamic.


----------



## quality_sound

^^^That.


----------



## cajunner

this forum isn't just an information dissemination portal for manufacturers.

let's at least acknowledge that armchair quarterbacking is part of the game of getting internet publicity for your products.

anyone who is so tightly wound that they would take their ball and go home if someone says "I see potential for optimizing YOUR design" as a premise for posting, is probably not giving enough credit to anonymous nobodies that arrive from nowhere to critique designs.

that being said, it's all entertainment now.


----------



## 1fishman

cajunner said:


> this forum isn't just an information dissemination portal for manufacturers.
> 
> let's at least acknowledge that armchair quarterbacking is part of the game of getting internet publicity for your products.
> 
> anyone who is so tightly wound that they would take their ball and go home if someone says "I see potential for optimizing YOUR design" as a premise for posting, is probably not giving enough credit to anonymous nobodies that arrive from nowhere to critique designs.
> 
> that being said, it's all entertainment now.


Amen!


----------



## ntimd8n-k5

Safeway said:


> I think that other posters in this thread were unnecessarily dismissed when they brought up potential loading/flexion issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Do I think that the design is problematic given the level of loading and the materials being used? *NOT AT ALL.*
> 
> 
> 
> However, I don't think that this is the optimal arrangement, either. Regardless of a lack of testing data that quantitatively reveals the differential flexion of this assembly, it is obvious that certain mounting points will flex more than other mounting points. As shown.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, as I said, the level of flexion will be minuscule all around. It simply doesn't matter that it is designed this way.
> 
> 
> 
> Credentials: BS/MS in Engineering, with focus on materials, and practicing patent attorney working in the fields of networking, telecom, navigation, UI, materials, manufacturing processes, etc.



It is a freaking subwoofer, not a bridge. Nick's credentials are enough for me. I have owned every car audio subwoofer he has made since the Magv4 and none of them have disappointed me.


----------



## brumledb

cajunner said:


> as a site dedicated to free thinker mentality, it is my opinion that you shouldn't have to substantiate your concerns as to whether or not they are critical, or intrude on the designer's design choices.
> 
> some people here will disagree, saying that just having the designers here willing to share the details of their process, is everything we need.
> 
> I submit that the designers here are using these details, as "grass roots" advertising materials that cost very little, and if the back and forth by people interested in the design process actually wears a little of that freebie advertising down, the cost of this kind of advertising should be taken into account.
> 
> 
> if it's basically nothing to put out details of a new design, in the hopes of attracting seed money in the form of a pre-sale, then how do you take away something from nothing?
> 
> The net result is overwhelmingly positive and the designer who is willing to defend their design based on aesthetic grounds, or accept that it is not 100% engineered for maximum response, should be something that is accommodated, or at least accepted in the round.
> 
> 
> it's not Audiobahn's chromed out bling, after all...





cajunner said:


> this forum isn't just an information dissemination portal for manufacturers.
> 
> let's at least acknowledge that armchair quarterbacking is part of the game of getting internet publicity for your products.
> 
> anyone who is so tightly wound that they would take their ball and go home if someone says "I see potential for optimizing YOUR design" as a premise for posting, is probably not giving enough credit to anonymous nobodies that arrive from nowhere to critique designs.
> 
> that being said, it's all entertainment now.


I agree that this forum isn't only for manufacturer information dissemination but that was probably the intent of this particular thread. Although it might should be expected, I doubt Nick expected to have his design and supply chain choices critiqued. I understand your viewpoint that Nick is gaining promotion of his products through this forum and therefore its members should be allowed dialogue about information he posts.However, in a thread such as this where we are being given access to a process that many of us would not get otherwise it is probably best to adhere to the old rule of: 
"If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all."


----------



## legend94

Thankfully it's not a bridge or it would end up being as long as amps sound funny thread.


----------



## legend94

ntimd8n-k5 said:


> Nick's credentials are enough for me. I have owned every car audio subwoofer he has made since the Magv4 and none of them have disappointed me.


I have to concur, this is not his first subwoofer. Lol. Has He ever had a major issue with anything he has designed? Not to my knowledge.


----------



## cajunner

brumledb said:


> I agree that this forum isn't only for manufacturer information dissemination but that was probably the intent of this particular thread. Although it might should be expected, I doubt Nick expected to have his design and supply chain choices critiqued. I understand your viewpoint that Nick is gaining promotion of his products through this forum and therefore its members should be allowed dialogue about information he posts.However, in a thread such as this where we are being given access to a process that many of us would not get otherwise it is probably best to adhere to the old rule of:
> "If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all."


and I'm inclined to agree with this.

but this isn't the only time a nose got bent out of shape, when nobody threw a punch.

suggesting someone look towards Mexico as a potential source of lower cost CNC labor, isn't really being "not nice" as much as it is just making conversation.

and the problem with egos in this forum is exacerbated by the hero worship, and the blind follower mentality that results.


let's pretend we have some social skills even if we're engineers and don't work the front desk very well, huh?


haha...


----------



## cajunner

brumledb said:


> I agree that this forum isn't only for manufacturer information dissemination but that was probably the intent of this particular thread.


let's look at the title.

a "sneak peek" is to me, like when car companies show concept vehicles at car shows.

it's still in design phase, and some feedback might alter the end result.

that could just be me, interpreting his intent incorrectly, though.

I think that there's a zone between asking what people think, and then being given critical assessments, that gets kind of fuzzy.

What if someone does actually give Nick a reason to alter his prototype, should he then give the person who prompted the change, credit of some type, is he liable for taking the idea?


I mean, there's a lot of gray area, here.


----------



## brumledb

cajunner said:


> let's look at the title.
> 
> a "sneak peek" is to me, like when car companies show concept vehicles at car shows.
> 
> it's still in design phase, and some feedback might alter the end result.
> 
> that could just be me, interpreting his intent incorrectly, though.
> 
> I think that there's a zone between asking what people think, and then being given critical assessments, that gets kind of fuzzy.
> 
> What if someone does actually give Nick a reason to alter his prototype, should he then give the person who prompted the change, credit of some type, is he liable for taking the idea?
> 
> 
> I mean, there's a lot of gray area, here.


Semantics always makes for a good argument because it cannot be proven. Is whether or not he wanted feedback debatable, sure (Although, I will say that looking back through his posts I did not see him at any point ask for opinions). Is whether or not he should have "taken his ball and gone home" because of the opinions offered, sure. 

Like I stated before, whether or not he wanted feedback he probably should have expected it.You know what they say about opinions.

My point is just simply that in this situation people should consider what they are saying to someone who is an experienced owner/speaker designer, has undoubtedly spent a long time designing this speaker, was simply providing this as FYI, and did not want/ask for their opinion.


----------



## cajunner

brumledb said:


> Semantics always makes for a good argument because it cannot be proven. Is whether or not he wanted feedback debatable, sure (Although, I will say that looking back through his posts I did not see him at any point ask for opinions). Is whether or not he should have "taken his ball and gone home" because of the opinions offered, sure.
> 
> Like I stated before, whether or not he wanted feedback he probably should have expected it.You know what they say about opinions.
> 
> My point is just simply that in this situation people should consider what they are saying to someone who is an experienced owner/speaker designer, has undoubtedly spent a long time designing this speaker, was simply providing this as FYI, and did not want/ask for their opinion.


Electrodynamic has a history of asking what people think, I think possibly more than any other manufacturer on the board.

he's done polls, he's given stuff away for reviews, he even titled a thread, "To make the BM mkIII's or not to? Choice is yours."

so let's not pretend that he was unaware of the possibility of interactive thread content, right?

And I understand how someone simply throwing ideas around, could be construed as having put forth a design gauntlet and then how to go about defending one's personal choices in making products.


I myself have been accused as one of these types, when in fact I'm just a guy who throws ideas around.

A lot, so that's just the way it is.

on the internets.


----------



## lv_v

Glad I found this thread. This sub is exactly what I've been dreaming of. Hope details on the prototypes are coming soon!


----------



## Electrodynamic

cajunner said:


> Electrodynamic has a history of asking what people think, I think possibly more than any other manufacturer on the board.
> 
> he's done polls, he's given stuff away for reviews, he even titled a thread, "To make the BM mkIII's or not to? Choice is yours."
> 
> so let's not pretend that he was unaware of the possibility of interactive thread content, right?
> 
> And I understand how someone simply throwing ideas around, could be construed as having put forth a design gauntlet and then how to go about defending one's personal choices in making products.
> 
> 
> I myself have been accused as one of these types, when in fact I'm just a guy who throws ideas around.
> 
> A lot, so that's just the way it is.
> 
> on the internets.


It's pretty funny really. I have posted this data for YOUR [anyone reading this thread] benefit. Not for my benefit. As narcissistic as that sounds I do NOT need recommendations as where to manufacture my toolings. As I stated previously, you can say what you want to say and I hope your own personal subwoofer offerings are everything that you [whoever it is making wild un-educated statements] claim them to be.

I hoped that this thread did not de-rail into the "you should look at tooling in the South Pole because labor is less expensive" or "your basket arm is far too smooth for the goal" but it went that way and I am disinclined to provide further updates due to all of the arm-chair quarterbacking. I used to post updates such as I started to with this thread but the "you should have done this" attitude was not there in previous years. So now you can follow on our FB page instead of getting up to the day/week updates on this forum. 

It has been fun reading through the posts in here and I will continue to post updates on our FB page. Have fun guys.


----------



## ben54b

Electrodynamic said:


> It's pretty funny really. I have posted this data for YOUR [anyone reading this thread] benefit. Not for my benefit. As narcissistic as that sounds I do NOT need recommendations as where to manufacture my toolings. As I stated previously, you can say what you want to say and I hope your own personal subwoofer offerings are everything that you [whoever it is making wild un-educated statements] claim them to be.
> 
> 
> 
> I hoped that this thread did not de-rail into the "you should look at tooling in the South Pole because labor is less expensive" or "your basket arm is far too smooth for the goal" but it went that way and I am disinclined to provide further updates due to all of the arm-chair quarterbacking. I used to post updates such as I started to with this thread but the "you should have done this" attitude was not there in previous years. So now you can follow on our FB page instead of getting up to the day/week updates on this forum.
> 
> 
> 
> It has been fun reading through the posts in here and I will continue to post updates on our FB page. Have fun guys.



I find this disappointing as I am very seriously considering your subs and have been following this thread on and off. While I agree with some of your points, I don't have fakebook and will not be able to follow any of it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cajunner

Electrodynamic said:


> It's pretty funny really. I have posted this data for YOUR [anyone reading this thread] benefit. Not for my benefit. As narcissistic as that sounds I do NOT need recommendations as where to manufacture my toolings. As I stated previously, you can say what you want to say and I hope your own personal subwoofer offerings are everything that you [whoever it is making wild un-educated statements] claim them to be.
> 
> I hoped that this thread did not de-rail into the "you should look at tooling in the South Pole because labor is less expensive" or "your basket arm is far too smooth for the goal" but it went that way and I am disinclined to provide further updates due to all of the arm-chair quarterbacking. I used to post updates such as I started to with this thread but the "you should have done this" attitude was not there in previous years. So now you can follow on our FB page instead of getting up to the day/week updates on this forum.
> 
> It has been fun reading through the posts in here and I will continue to post updates on our FB page. Have fun guys.


as a successful speaker designer and manufacturer, I think everybody already assumes you "do NOT need recommendations" and I really haven't seen that kind of intent in posts that make your objection warranted. You apparently feel some sort of challenge to your authority or expertise, that isn't really there in the instance of things I've said, and I could make the case that you have demeaned things I've said, in error. But I don't mind that much, after all I continue to promote your products in other threads and hope you do well in your advertisements and promotion here in the sweet spot of internet customer bases.

It just might be that I don't have the sensitivity, to see what provokes and in this case, this thread and these last few posts, where the justification is in your response.

But it's your ball, and if you want to take it to facebook because you find people here aren't treating you fairly or whatever, I think reasonable people will look at that decision and not come away with a positive... 


but what do I know?


----------



## legend94

ben54b said:


> I find this disappointing as I am very seriously considering your subs and have been following this thread on and off. While I agree with some of your points, I don't have fakebook and will not be able to follow any of it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can view the facebook page without having an account. Obviously you can't post but if you just want information it's easy. I don't have facebook either


----------



## quality_sound

cajunner said:


> as a successful speaker designer and manufacturer, I think everybody already assumes you "do NOT need recommendations" and I really haven't seen that kind of intent in posts that make your objection warranted. You apparently feel some sort of challenge to your authority or expertise, that isn't really there in the instance of things I've said, and I could make the case that you have demeaned things I've said, in error. But I don't mind that much, after all I continue to promote your products in other threads and hope you do well in your advertisements and promotion here in the sweet spot of internet customer bases.
> 
> It just might be that I don't have the sensitivity, to see what provokes and in this case, this thread and these last few posts, where the justification is in your response.
> 
> But it's your ball, and if you want to take it to facebook because you find people here aren't treating you fairly or whatever, I think reasonable people will look at that decision and not come away with a positive...
> 
> 
> but what do I know?



I disagree. I've seen multiple people suggest other logistical solutions and a few have tried to tell him the design was flawed. Funny that this is the ONLY of Nick's threads that's gone this way. 

Also, the feedback he's asked for in the past was on whether or not she should even build certain products, not HOW he shoudl build them. HUGE difference.


----------



## cajunner

quality_sound said:


> I disagree. I've seen multiple people suggest other logistical solutions and a few have tried to tell him the design was flawed. Funny that this is the ONLY of Nick's threads that's gone this way.
> 
> Also, the feedback he's asked for in the past was on whether or not she should even build certain products, not HOW he shoudl build them. HUGE difference.


yeah, I can agree with much of that. I think I went off the rails at the point where I felt like I was being handed the dunce cap for running Electrodynamic off, when he was really using the "universal you" a lot, in response to my post.

I didn't want to be construed as having been negative in his thread, and my perspective as an interested bystander is such that I appreciate going in-depth with some of the process, maybe even more than the next guy...

and I imagine some people were in the spirit of DIY, offering their own advice and counsel like we do, not considering how the speaker designer himself might take to such commentary.

I know if I'm discussing something I'm doing and someone can show me a better way or a fault within my process or bullet-point a checklist I wasn't aware of, I'm better off for having had the lesson, but I guess that doesn't apply to everyone.


----------



## quality_sound

I agree with that and to be fair, I think was much more, if not receptive, at least courteous, to the first few comments. When they started coming more often is when I saw him get annoyed. I don't believe anyone thinks that you specifically drove him off though.


----------



## Electrodynamic

After thinking much about me leaving this forum/thread due to a few sour apples [and yes the person replying recently was one of the reasons] making ill-formed attempts at _telling_ me instead of making suggestions I have decided that I ultimately do not care what other people are _telling_ me when they could have simply asked. 

I have been a member of this forum for a very long time. A VERY long time. And I'm not going to let a few self-appointed eliteists ruin the view of developing a class leading subwoofer for everyone else. 

I am working on a single cast version of the BM mkV basket. I am also having the previously pictured modular basket CNC machined by CNC TEK. There will only be two prototypes of the BM mkV's as pictured in this thread, and those drivers will be my personal drivers. The production drivers will have a cast basket and will utilize all of the same physical limitations and the production drivers will still look very very nice. They just won't be modular. 

The two modular baskets that I will personally own will be anodized either candy apple blue or the darker Lexus red found on their newer vehicles. The dome diaphragms will be sprayed a semi-clear Lexus red for the two samples.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

All great to hear Nick!! Im very very happy you finalized somone to source the basket from for your test subs. All the best to you, dont let a couple things on here detour your spirit or drive to build some of the best subs on the planet.

I can not wait to get my hands on a pair of the MK V!


----------



## quality_sound

Dammit, now I want some badass machines ones painted to match my car. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Treesive

quality_sound said:


> Dammit, now I want some badass machines ones painted to match my car.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


haha ditto


----------



## rton20s

Sounds like there might be a market for a BM mkV LE (Limited Edition) with custom machined and anodized baskets.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Oh snap... That one wil be super pricey! Cant imagine what poor Nick is having to spend to verify his masterpiece.. Well actually I've got a pretty good idea, not cheap. 

But definitely "LE"!


----------



## rton20s

I never said anything about pricing. You'll have to dig deep boys.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Cant buy into "Custom or Limited Edition" concerned about a few hundred (or so) extra bucks!


----------



## ben54b

Electrodynamic said:


> After thinking much about me leaving this forum/thread due to a few sour apples [and yes the person replying recently was one of the reasons] making ill-formed attempts at _telling_ me instead of making suggestions I have decided that I ultimately do not care what other people are _telling_ me when they could have simply asked.
> 
> I have been a member of this forum for a very long time. A VERY long time. And I'm not going to let a few self-appointed eliteists ruin the view of developing a class leading subwoofer for everyone else.
> 
> I am working on a single cast version of the BM mkV basket. I am also having the previously pictured modular basket CNC machined by CNC TEK. There will only be two prototypes of the BM mkV's as pictured in this thread, and those drivers will be my personal drivers. The production drivers will have a cast basket and will utilize all of the same physical limitations and the production drivers will still look very very nice. They just won't be modular.
> 
> The two modular baskets that I will personally own will be anodized either candy apple blue or the darker Lexus red found on their newer vehicles. The dome diaphragms will be sprayed a semi-clear Lexus red for the two samples.



That's great news on the moving forward. Look forward to seeing how these improve on the mkiv



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## foreman

Thanks for staying with the thread Nick, i think most of us are eager enough to watch this and throw more money at you


----------



## Electrodynamic

Nathan at CNC TEK has begun working on the basket.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

Electrodynamic said:


> Nathan at CNC TEK has begun working on the basket.
> 
> Keep pushing, keep pressing. You are doing an amazing job!!!


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## deeppinkdiver

That's what we call a big hog out.. ( tons of material getting machined from a solid chunk )

Lookin good from here! It is sad so many passed up on this work from you..


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## jdsoldger

Oh that is purdy. I love a nice piece of machining. I guess the production ones will be cast?


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## Electrodynamic

jdsoldger said:


> Oh that is purdy. I love a nice piece of machining. I guess the production ones will be cast?


Not sure yet. I'm still working on the drawing for the cast basket. I'll know more after these two CNC baskets are completed and I get final pricing from CNC TEK for production quantities. Same goes for the cast baskets - I'll know more once I get the tooling cost and item cost. The decision will come down to what price you guys want the driver at. I think I've said this previously but the CNC baskets or the cast baskets may impact the total cost of each driver by $200 or more. For example each BM mkV may cost $500 or $700 depending on which basket is used. Would you honestly pay the difference or just say you would pay the difference in a forum reply but actually choose another driver to save $200?

But let me get quotes first. Keep in mind these are pictures of prototypes, not of a selection of items that have been priced and/or tooled for production.  I need more time for baskets to actually be made and for more prices for basket options.


----------



## ben54b

Personally I'm more likely to go with the cast. Price is always a factor. But that's just me. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cajunner

I think the difference in a shallow sub design is more important, since machined from billet should be quite a bit more rigid than the cast, but these woofers are being targeted with 1000W RMS of input, I believe? I don't know if the extra toughness and closer tolerances of the machined make sense in a functional capacity for the added cost even if you have the added "cashay" of billet in the advertising... I believe if I had 500 to spend on the ultimate shallow sub, I'd probably get the 700 if that's how it came but I'm too cheap to spend 500 on a sub so this question is more for people with better spending power than me... so...

if I had to guess, and I believe I do, have to guess... 

I've seen where it was stated that in large subs, say 12" or bigger, the steel frame is good enough for up to 600W RMS, depending on whether or not you go with the really good thickness/design basket. That's not hybrid baskets, or funny business.

Then the average cast sub, we've seen take up to 2.5KW, in the claw baskets, but maybe topping out at 1.25KW on recommendations, then you get into the TC Sounds semi-custom basket design, with the deep draw designs. JBL WGTI, Diamond, SoundStream DaVinci, stuff like that.

But shallow sub design compresses the parts into the smallest window of clearances, and the engineered part of the frame is under higher stresses than a deep-draw design, simply because you have more to do, in less space. It's a lot like the cone angle in the cones. You go with a shallow cone, it will produce more unwanted artifacts than a deep cone will, based simply on physics. You can take a shallow frame sub, and apply vibrational stress to it, and it will crack before a regular frame sub will, all things equal but the machined shallow frame will possibly resist deformation or breakage, before the regular framed cast sub will... wild-assed guess, here...

So a machined frame seems like a top tier design strategy, and pricing will have to reflect that. I think the question of one man, not known for patents and design baubles to hang from the wall, being capable of designing something even better than huge R&D departments from multi-national companies with decades of design under the belt, is the nagging one, the one that has to be proven, each and every time...

I think he's up for the task, and if it's 500 to 700 for the "no holds barred" billet build version, I think since he's building these himself that the cast version makes the most sense, because you can get volume prices down over the machined, which there are less economies of scale involved... but that billet design will be a watermark-

many people will step up, for the best. And the economy is on the way up, according to the kind liberal media and the president...


----------



## legend94

Can you cliff note that?


----------



## cajunner

legend94 said:


> Can you cliff note that?


sure.

to the specific question of whether or not I'd pay 700 and actually buy the sub, compared to 500 I can't afford either choice.

a sub that changes the shallow sub landscape to an ever better degree and has noticeable improvements over the last two versions, should be worth quite a bit more, but suddenly entering the Illusion Carbon/Critical Mass/JL W7 tiers in a shallow offering might be skirting with disaster. I think when SoundStream made the DaVinci dual-gap subs, they were retail for quite a bit, but didn't sell that well.

Of course, that's a deep draw, comparison and nothing in shallow sub land will compete with this sub, cast or machined for the SQ enthusiast who likes to push it a bit...


that said, I'd run for 500 at cast basket production, then do an updated, billet frame version that could be converted using the same motor at the factory, or warehouse where Electrodynamic personally oversees the upgrade. This would cost 250, where the machined baskets could be done on an as-needed basis, keeping inventory down. 

The additional exclusivity from such a build would make many jump, a Signature Edition using perhaps, copper Faraday and a Rohacell cone version for the people who find the carbon fiber a bit, uh... heavy.


lol...


----------



## legend94

Makes sense and I appreciate the cliff notes but I think he already hit on the point of people saying they will buy versus actually buying. 

I take it you don't have a twitter account?


----------



## cajunner

legend94 said:


> Makes sense and I appreciate the cliff notes but I think he already hit on the point of people saying they will buy versus actually buying.
> 
> I take it you don't have a twitter account?


no twitter.


no facebook.


no instagram, no snapchat, no photobucket, no online digital footprints at all.


except for message boards, which I am sorry to say, is far and away enough entertainment to waste away my precious hours of life so that I do feel guilt, when I ponder on it.


I am not one to look at another and say "that's too much!" but I suspect there are some people who have substituted an actual life, for a digital one and some of those people leave messages here.

but that's okay. I mean, I'm okay with it, different strokes and all. Enough about me, what do you think about going with a cast basket design, is it going to help you make a purchase? I guess if JL and Alpine can charge 600 retail for their shallow, neodymium subs there should be a small market, niche product version that is just plain better, with the price that reflects that...


----------



## legend94

My price point ends at about 350 for a single 12 so I am out of the conversation as well. However, if the price point is at 450-500 and people start reviewing the sub as the best of all time I might splurge!

To me i could care less what it's made out of as long as the structural integrity is there, of which I have no doubt.

Thanks for the new signature.


----------



## Electrodynamic

The price example was just that - an example. You can take it as $200 compared to $400 or $300 compared to $500 or $400 compared to $600, etc. 

There is no doubt the mkV is going to cost more than the mkIV. The mkV is a much higher performance subwoofer than the mkIV - more linear stroke, much higher peak stroke, higher power handling. larger voice coil, a lot more neo in the motor, an improved inductance control system, etc. How much more the mkV will cost will be determined when all of the basket pricing and options have been explored.


----------



## sirbOOm

Certainly, even at full price, the IV was underpriced against the competition that it out spec'd, out applied, and out-sounded.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Agreed^. Billet or cast, I don't care unless one performs significantly better. Price be damned, I'll be in for at least 2.

Nick just as a quick question, if someone was to use a mkiv in a office while waiting to be able to start their car build, what size box would you recommend. Not likely I'll need more than 150 watts or so to get the output I need, just curious about box size without cabin gain.


----------



## Weightless

I have mine in the .5cf box that i built for my work truck, but that fell through. So now I am using it with a 200w amp at 8ohm and it sounds really good! Effortless is a great discriptor if i was to describe it. 

In fact I am so pleased with it that i will be adding a second. 

Im currently pairing it with my kef mains until i can get my rd75's built, but that wont be until mid summer.

Keep in mind that i am using it in a small room, so not much low end is needed.

I cant imagine what these sound like in car...


----------



## Electrodynamic

Weightless said:


> I have mine in the .5cf box that i built for my work truck, but that fell through. So now I am using it with a 200w amp at 8ohm and it sounds really good! Effortless is a great discriptor if i was to describe it.
> 
> In fact I am so pleased with it that i will be adding a second.
> 
> Im currently pairing it with my kef mains until i can get my rd75's built, but that wont be until mid summer.
> 
> Keep in mind that i am using it in a small room, so not much low end is needed.
> 
> I cant imagine what these sound like in car...


Pretty typical experience really. I was able to shell out 110 dB of output from a single BM mkIV 12" in 0.5 ft^3 sealed enclosure in my 11'x11' spare bedroom.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Sounds good, mines in .6cf.


----------



## Electrodynamic

sirbOOm said:


> Certainly, even at full price, the IV was underpriced against the competition that it out spec'd, out applied, and out-sounded.


Nick, did you ever post up a full review of your BM mkIV?


----------



## Treesive

I love the idea of a machined basket and think there would be a "Sig Edition" type crowd out there to buy it for the extra cost. On a full production type scale I think cast is probably the way to go for most people. I would be very interested in a sig edition powder coated machined basket mkv Nick special type sub. I think if kept at a smaller quantity it could be a trial to see the consumer want for the machined basket as well as giving you the opportunity to see if the basket differences cause any noticeable change in performance (I would guess not anything noticeable except for some cosmetic greatness).


----------



## sirbOOm

Electrodynamic said:


> Nick, did you ever post up a full review of your BM mkIV?


Well, I wrote a draft Word but never finalized/posted it because I was focused on getting my system done with my **** ZED amps being crap and then getting it tuned and then shortly after I got an offer on the truck and sold the truck for a really great price. Plus you stopped making them so I figured it wasn't needed and instead answered tons of PMs and made man replies about the subs proclaiming their superiority to the JL 13 that I get to hear often.

But I will post it later if you want. Unfortunately I'm not using them anymore. I'm going to get a V for the new car (Volt) if I do a system in it.  I'll pay full price though (although I really would prefer a 10", hint).


----------



## sirbOOm

Treesive said:


> I love the idea of a machined basket and think there would be a "Sig Edition" type crowd out there to buy it for the extra cost. On a full production type scale I think cast is probably the way to go for most people. I would be very interested in a sig edition powder coated machined basket mkv Nick special type sub. I think if kept at a smaller quantity it could be a trial to see the consumer want for the machined basket as well as giving you the opportunity to see if the basket differences cause any noticeable change in performance (I would guess not anything noticeable except for some cosmetic greatness).


I can care less what the basket looks like, personally. I am not the type to show off the backside of a sub in some sort of plexi box or invert it so it could be hot pink and have big cocks and balls screen printed on it for all I care. A fancy basket is just marketing ot me. A basket that gets the job done but is otherwise boring and uneventful in a great speaker tells me that my money went to speaker quality, not the marketing guy from Audiobahn.


----------



## Electrodynamic

Nathan at CNC TEK has been busting his arse! 



















And one of the basket arms:


----------



## Electrodynamic

Double post


----------



## deeppinkdiver

I love where this is going Nick! Someone cares about their customer being happy and kept up to date clearly. I like this guy already, Nathan from CNC TEK


----------



## Electrodynamic

deeppinkdiver said:


> I love where this is going Nick! Someone cares about their customer being happy and kept up to date clearly. I like this guy already, Nathan from CNC TEK


Yeah me too. Nathan has been fantastic. I honestly did not expect this type of up-to-date progress notifications along with pictures.


----------



## WhereAmEye?

I love machining; watching a chunk of steel/ aluminum become a useable piece of engineering is a beautiful thing. Keep the pics coming!


----------



## jdsoldger

WhereAmEye? said:


> I love machining; watching a chunk of steel/ aluminum become a useable piece of engineering is a beautiful thing. Keep the pics coming!


As someone working toward a mechanical engineering tech degree.... very much this.


----------



## Positrack

From what I've gathered in this thread, the Mark V is going to be a little larger/deeper than the Mark IV, correct? I was planning to order a Mk IV for my truck given it's limited space (as in absolutely for sure ordering one), but that was before I heard about the newer version. Can you give any exact specs on mounting depth yet? I'm VERY space limited and I'd like to know if the Mk V would fit or if I should order a Mk IV (or two...) now while they are still available. Thanks.


----------



## SHAGGS

Being a CNC programmer, now those are some pics I can appreciate!


----------



## deeppinkdiver

SHAGGS said:


> Being a CNC programmer, now those are some pics I can appreciate!




Dido! Exactly.. Also a programmer/machinist. Those are the kind of pics that turn us on..lol.


----------



## jriggs

Positrack said:


> Can you give any exact specs on mounting depth yet? I'm VERY space limited and I'd like to know if the Mk V would fit


Have you read the first post on the first page of this thread?


----------



## bbfoto

Treesive said:


> I love the idea of a machined basket and think there would be a "Sig Edition" type crowd out there to buy it for the extra cost. On a full production type scale I think cast is probably the way to go for most people. I would be very interested in a sig edition powder coated machined basket mkv Nick special type sub. I think if kept at a smaller quantity it could be a trial to see the consumer want for the machined basket as well as giving you the opportunity to see if the basket differences cause any noticeable change in performance (I would guess not anything noticeable except for some cosmetic greatness).





sirbOOm said:


> I can care less what the basket looks like, personally. I am not the type to show off the backside of a sub in some sort of plexi box or invert it so it could be hot pink and have big cocks and balls screen printed on it for all I care. A fancy basket is just marketing ot me. A basket that gets the job done but is otherwise boring and uneventful in a great speaker tells me that my money went to speaker quality, not the marketing guy from Audiobahn.


Agreed. Although like anybody I love seeing beautiful, high-quality machine work, I think that a performance-proven cast basket would be the way to go, or whatever material & manufacturing process brings down the cost for the end consumer without compromising performance. I'm sure that Nick can create a very nice looking cast basket design.

Of course, by design the BM subs are Shallow-Mount. That means that the consumer is mainly buying and using this sub because they need a really good subwoofer to tuck away where standard designs will not fit, and it will almost always be hidden from view under a seat, under a false floor, etc. Also, these are not designed to be "exposed" IB subs (CMIIW). So I'd say that even the front of the sub will be hidden from view in 98% of the installs that these will go into. IMO it doesn't make sense to increase the cost for both production and to the end consumer to accommodate that ~2% of the market.

I feel that Nick's profit margin and end sales would be higher with a cast basket/lower price point as well. There will be an exponentially higher number of us that will realistically shell out $400 for a sub as opposed to $600+ each. And I don't know about you (not you specifically), but A LOT of us will want to install at least two. That's where the cost difference really starts to become a factor. Like Justin, I become more & more hesitant to pull the trigger on a sub when the price rises above the ~$350 mark. That's where other options might start to become feasible, even if there might be some sort of compromise in performance or install flexibility.

I'm sure that the machined basket could be an option for those few who really want it and are willing to pay for it ($$$). Now, if the difference in cost between the cast and machined basket was within ~$50-$80, then the decision becomes much more difficult. :blush:


----------



## sirbOOm

I would need a single 2 ohm or dual 4 ohm model if I get one of these for the Volt.


----------



## bbfoto

^This! 4-Ohm DVC, please.


----------



## Positrack

jriggs said:


> Have you read the first post on the first page of this thread?


Yeah, I read the whole thread; I don't know how I missed that. It was late - reading comprehension must have gone bye-bye... Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.


As to prices/construction costs, FWIW, I'd probably spend $400, maaaaybe $500 for a really good sub, but beyond that I'm pretty much priced out. That's part of the reason I was so excited about the Mk IV. I haven't read anything but high praise about its SQ, and it comes in at a pretty affordable price point.


----------



## foreman

I'm really hoping this sub has the characteristics of the MKIV with a lot more volume as Nick is shooting for. I've been trying to find the perfect sub for my custom enclosure for a while now and Nicks offerings seem to be the only ones that can pull off the mounting depth and sound quality. I wanna try one!!!!


----------



## 2010hummerguy

foreman said:


> I'm really hoping this sub has the characteristics of the MKIV with a lot more volume as Nick is shooting for. I've been trying to find the perfect sub for my custom enclosure for a while now and Nicks offerings seem to be the only ones that can pull off the mounting depth and sound quality. I wanna try one!!!!


Trading the Esotar for an MKV?


----------



## foreman

Haha not just yet bud, but i wish i had more power to throw at the dyn. WIth the power i have the MKV might be a bit more viable. Test those mids yet? lol


----------



## jgarcia1925

Well, im new to this forum but getting back in the game car audio wise holy crap am i impressed so far by this sub and company. being an engineer and seeing the progress on this sub and seeing his designs, i think i may have found the one. i would rather wait and buy something quality. wasn't looking for a 12" but im sure i can make this work in my GTI. awesome stuff, looking forward to launch date and price! now to upgrade the interior speakers and find a good amp for this. been out way too long, don't even know what to look for anymore. lol


----------



## Treesive

jgarcia1925 said:


> Well, im new to this forum but getting back in the game car audio wise holy crap am i impressed so far by this sub and company. being an engineer and seeing the progress on this sub and seeing his designs, i think i may have found the one. i would rather wait and buy something quality. wasn't looking for a 12" but im sure i can make this work in my GTI. awesome stuff, looking forward to launch date and price! now to upgrade the interior speakers and find a good amp for this. been out way too long, don't even know what to look for anymore. lol


Just start a thread on the forums. You will get plenty of advice.


----------



## Electrodynamic

Positrack said:


> From what I've gathered in this thread, the Mark V is going to be a little larger/deeper than the Mark IV, correct? I was planning to order a Mk IV for my truck given it's limited space (as in absolutely for sure ordering one), but that was before I heard about the newer version. Can you give any exact specs on mounting depth yet? I'm VERY space limited and I'd like to know if the Mk V would fit or if I should order a Mk IV (or two...) now while they are still available. Thanks.


I think the only thing I may have left out is the actual mounting depth of the mkV which is 3.95". Mount the woofer onto a piece of 3/4" material and the woofer will sit inside the enclosure 3.2"


----------



## jgarcia1925

Treesive said:


> Just start a thread on the forums. You will get plenty of advice.



Already started. If it wasn't for me beginning to do track days and such, I would have started the audio build, I must admit this company has started the itch again. I will be budgeting this sub in soon! Great stuff here 


Sent from my distraction device


----------



## captainobvious

Electrodynamic said:


> I think the only thing I may have left out is the actual mounting depth of the mkV which is 3.95". Mount the woofer onto a piece of 3/4" material and the woofer will sit inside the enclosure 3.2"


Only 3/4" deeper than the mkIV with a significant increase in performance- I like


----------



## rton20s

captainobvious said:


> Only 3/4" deeper than the mkIV with a significant increase in performance- I like


I don't think the additional depth is an issue, but 3/4" is actually quite a bit when you are talking about shallow subwoofers. That is over a 23% increase in depth.


----------



## gstokes

Finally got around to reading this thread and I must admit that my interest is peaked like so many others, I am currently using a 3.2 cu ft Net vented enclosure which is 36" wide x 16.25" tall x 14.5" deep and it sacrifices 1/3 of the storage space under the bed in the back of my van. 
A .5 cu ft enclosure could fit behind the drivers seat and open up the entire floor under the bed for storage of camping gear, tools, spare tire, etc.. 
I wouldn't have even considered spending +/- $500 for a subwoofer before but something like this would surely help justify the expense..
I'm new to the shallow subwoofer market and never gave it much thought because i didn't need too but now I'm watching and listening and learning..
Another caveat of using a subwoofer and enclosure that fits behind the seat is time alignment issues or should i say complete lack of time alignment issues, the subwoofer would be for all practical purposes the same distance from my ears as the tweeters and the mids.. 
I'm running 3-way full-active and have serious issues with time-alignment on the subwoofers and have been contemplating a DSP to correct the delay but now I have a whole different mindset and realizing how a shallow subwoofer in .5 cu ft enclosure would kill two birds with one stone..
All hail the great and powerful "Electrodynamic" :bowdown:


----------



## Electrodynamic

Prototype motors are finished:

Big slug of neo and a full length pole sleeve











Yes there is clear plastic on the back plate to protect it during shipping


----------



## WhiteL02

Coming along quite nicely.


----------



## jgarcia1925

Cannot wait 


Sent from my distraction device


----------



## Hugg727

Looks good, any ETA on availability?


----------



## onebadmonte

Any chance of offering the same motor on a standard basket and cone for those with space to give but shallow wallets?


----------



## Electrodynamic

onebadmonte said:


> Any chance of offering the same motor on a standard basket and cone for those with space to give but shallow wallets?


No chance. Not being rude but it simply won't work at all. What you asked about would be a totally different driver.


----------



## shillermanlite

Electrodynamic said:


> No chance. Not being rude but it simply won't work at all. What you asked about would be a totally different driver.


Sounds good to me. The best thing about the shallow profile is it can fit under the back seat of most pickups.(From a total sum of potential customers standpoint). The F150, Silverado and Ram are the top 3 selling vehicles in America and these subs are a top choice for that application. Much respect!


----------



## Manic1!

bbfoto said:


> ^This! 4-Ohm DVC, please.


Alot of people including myself have asked but for some reason it's a no go.


----------



## Electrodynamic

CNC baskets are finished. There have only been two CNC baskets made and that will be it. No more CNC baskets. The baskets are very expensive and would bring the cost of the BM mkV to over $1000 each. But these baskets are dimensionally correct and will allow us to test the soft parts and make sure that the parts have the proper clearances.

So onto the pics:


----------



## Electrodynamic

Double post.


----------



## bertholomey

They look fantastic!


----------



## Electrodynamic

bertholomey said:


> They look fantastic!


Thanks Jason.  The baskets should be here on Monday. Wanna take a guess on what I'll be doing on Monday?


----------



## Black Rain

What is your projection on them at this point? Maybe, late May?


----------



## Weightless

Holy sexiness Batman! Those look great. Can't wait to see the finished product.


----------



## Gomer Pilot

Beautiful!


----------



## captainobvious

That's some fine milling work. Awesome Nick- those are going to look great displayed in your vehicle


----------



## foreman

I want one!!! Nick, if these aren't available until June, would you ship it to Texas where I'll be instead of my PayPal confirmed address???


----------



## Inferno333

Gorgeous!


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Congrats on finally getting these going Nick! Everything looks great.


----------



## lizardking

How many BM MKIV's do you have left in stock?


----------



## bertholomey

Now I can agree with that statement- there are other brands out there. Feel free to enjoy them. 

There are many happy customers of Stereo Integrity products and of Nick. It is a shame you have had such bad experiences and that you are so vocal about them.


----------



## gstokes

Nick made it quite clear what the waiting time was for the mids, 4 weeks just for the previous orders and longer for current orders, if that deadline had not been met then we would have reason to question delivery times but not before then so ..


----------



## seafish

legend94 said:


> You will also see some of my si subs up for sale soon


NOT like you'll have any problem selling them, but please DO pm me and we can work a deal out!!!


----------



## Electrodynamic

captainobvious said:


> That's some fine milling work. Awesome Nick- those are going to look great displayed in your vehicle


Even though the front of the BM mkV's is going to look very good I'm going to mount these two prototypes inverted. Can you blame me?


----------



## SHAGGS

WOW! Those baskets turned out amazing!


----------



## JayinMI

I've actually had a couple of MkIV's come through my hands (for a customer) and was quite impressed. And the MkV's look like quite a step up. All I can say is I don't want to rebuild my hatch. lol

Jay


----------



## Electrodynamic

Modular CNC machined basket showed up today along with the prototype mkV solid neo slug motors. Progress pictures:

I really have to thank Nathan from CNC TEK again for the parts - they look phenomenal in person and everything was actually above what I expected. It's a small touch but he even included the M4 allen screws to assemble the motor with along with an allen tool to use to tighten them down with. He did not need to do that but it was a very nice touch. The basket parts were wrapped snug with shop towells (the soft blue one's) and then wrapped in bubble wrap. Super nice packing job. 

Basket in raw parts:










Modular basket parts with the motor:










Arms added on:



















Fully assembled basket and motor flipped upside down:










Complete mockup with everything sitting in place:


----------



## sundownz

This thing is beautiful -- it's awesome to see it take shape in reality after drooling over Nick's drawings with him for so long


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

Great Job!!!


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Truely stunning! Has that ultimate classy look like the high end machined MP drivers. Very impressive assembly Nick. Congrats!


----------



## jsnstanley

Will mkV ultimately have a gasket reminiscent of previous versions? Looks Awesome btw!


----------



## foreman

Super sexy....very nice looking mock up. Can't wait for testing....


----------



## Electrodynamic

jsnstanley said:


> Will mkV ultimately have a gasket reminiscent of previous versions? Looks Awesome btw!


Possibly. Too early to give an official Yes or No.


----------



## WhiteL02

Wow!!!


----------



## crea_78

Wow!! Looks very nice Nick! Too bad I have no desire in upgrading my awesome MKIVs.


----------



## jdsoldger

Beautiful sub!

Actually! Do you mind if I ask a question? I have searched and cannot ever find a good answer and noone seems to be able to tell me the answer, but you should be able to if you are willing to say.

What kind of glue is used to glue the spider to the basket?

I have some drivers that, due to age and a bit of abuse, the spiders have come undone. I have tried cyanoacrylate, but that just hasn't held up.


----------



## mark620

That's a work of art ...Looks really sweet


----------



## onebadmonte

Looks great.


----------



## lv_v

Jesus H.. I may have to buy one just to put on my desk to stare at all day.


----------



## rton20s

It looks great. The machining work is certainly impressive. 

One question... In looking at the picture below, it would appear that the cutout won't be a simple circle, but would actually have to be notched to accommodate the basket arms. Is this correct? It seems that the diameter of the mounting hole circle is smaller than the outer diameter of the basket arms. 










If the design remains in tact through production would you provide some sort of router guide/template for the cut out?


----------



## deeppinkdiver

I see what your saying here. Good catch, ones accounted for that would make for a very strong mounting surface! If in fact the finish design is similar im sure we could work around those posts. Damn this thing is sexxxy


----------



## bertholomey

Man, I hope I don't screw this up, and Nick can certainly clarify....but I believe this was the original intent of the design, but when he needed to move from this CNC basket to the cast basket.....the cut out changed. If I am not entirely wrong, I believe the cast basket will be a 'normal' circle. These special CNC ones should be the only ones with the 'arms'.


----------



## ErinH

I think you're right, Jason. The way I understood it, this basket is basically a one-off (or two-off) so he can get the soft parts built up and make sure everything lines up the way he needs (ie; voice coil, spider, etc).


----------



## rton20s

I've read (and just re-read) all of Nick's posts both here and on FB. I was aware that he would be going to a cast basket for production and that he is currently (or rather was currently at the time of his posts) working on revised drawings for said cast basket. I just haven't seen any images of the cast basket yet and was curious if the "overlapping arm" design element was something that would make it into the production run. 

I don't think it is a big deal, either way. It just makes installation a bit more complicated. Hence my question/suggestion of providing a cheap plastic template that could be used as a router guide (or traced if using a jigsaw).


----------



## Electrodynamic

rton20s said:


> It looks great. The machining work is certainly impressive.
> 
> One question... In looking at the picture below, it would appear that the cutout won't be a simple circle, but would actually have to be notched to accommodate the basket arms. Is this correct? It seems that the diameter of the mounting hole circle is smaller than the outer diameter of the basket arms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the design remains in tact through production would you provide some sort of router guide/template for the cut out?





bertholomey said:


> Man, I hope I don't screw this up, and Nick can certainly clarify....but I believe this was the original intent of the design, but when he needed to move from this CNC basket to the cast basket.....the cut out changed. If I am not entirely wrong, I believe the cast basket will be a 'normal' circle. These special CNC ones should be the only ones with the 'arms'.





rton20s said:


> I've read (and just re-read) all of Nick's posts both here and on FB. I was aware that he would be going to a cast basket for production and that he is currently (or rather was currently at the time of his posts) working on revised drawings for said cast basket. I just haven't seen any images of the cast basket yet and was curious if the "overlapping arm" design element was something that would make it into the production run.
> 
> I don't think it is a big deal, either way. It just makes installation a bit more complicated. Hence my question/suggestion of providing a cheap plastic template that could be used as a router guide (or traced if using a jigsaw).


Correct on most accounts. These baskets are custom pieces and the five cutouts necessary to mount the driver are not a big issue - if you can't make five notches you [whoever is installing it] need to have someone else install it, haha.  But these particular prototypes should be mounted inverse. It's a good thing I'm keeping them to make sure they are inverse mounted. 

The cast basket used on production models will have a normal circle cutout. I haven't posted a drawing of the cast rendering because the drawing is not finished yet. I needed to build up this/these prototypes to take measurements to ensure everything had correct clearances between all of the parts. If something needs to be adjusted I can do so on the cast drawing so everything is perfect.


----------



## cajunner

cast baskets using the same dimensional specs would seem, to be vulnerable to shock if just going by looks, in my hugely unqualified unprofessional opinion.

I mean, not just a rough bounce over some expansion joints obviously, but a drop on a loaded enclosure from say, 20 inches, because someone's hands slip, where a regular 4 spoke would take the hit.

and I don't mean to say it's because of the 5 arm/4 spoke mismatch, because that's not where it looks the most vulnerable (of course, as a single, uneducated guess and totally unsubstantiated opinion), the general size and spacing of the material seems to be spread too thin. The elegance of the design would still be considerable should a stiffer, thicker proportioned basket be substituted for production....


again, in my considerably undercompensated, non-professional vantage point, which is just an opinion, and in no way meant to cause harm or damage to anyone....


----------



## gstokes

cajunner said:


> cast baskets using the same dimensional specs would seem, to be vulnerable to shock if just going by looks, in my hugely unqualified unprofessional opinion.
> 
> again, in my considerably undercompensated, non-professional vantage point, which is just an opinion, and in no way meant to cause harm or damage to anyone....


I didn't realize the 20" drop test was part of a subwoofers evaluation


----------



## legend94

gstokes said:


> I didn't realize the 20" drop test was part of a subwoofers evaluation


That actually made me laugh out loud. I wish could say I've never dropped a speaker. It was a mid not a subwoofer luckily.

I doubt many subs could survive a fall like that with zero damage.

Nice avatar btw.


----------



## cajunner

gstokes said:


> I didn't realize the 20" drop test was part of a subwoofers evaluation and if that kind of treatment is normal to you then perhaps a more durable ABS plastic shock resistant subwoofer is better suited for your application


okay, so in less, neutral terms, I think I see a design flaw regarding the spacing, then...

and yes, I established a hugely inappropriate test to conceal exposing this flaw, as something that would be inferred...


but since you put me on the spot, I am just going to say it plain. A cast version of the basket as is, does not look very durable based on my judgment.


my unprofessional, undereducated, non-engineer schooled, smartass armchair quarterback opinion.



it's not the end of the world, and since the actual cast dimensions are already said to be differing from the machined "one-offs" of these prototype parts, it's not actually going to matter what I think, or what I've brought forward.

It's just a guy looking at someone else's design and thinking how I would possibly do it differently, or just with a little different emphasis on the structured parts that are used to produce the floated motor aspect.

It's not meant as an insult, or a demand, or some kind of glory-seeking internet attack that sensitive people would misinterpret as a device of some sort....

but whatever, right? Hey, if the design itself cannot be discussed, AT ALL, then what is it doing here?

Is that my bad?


----------



## Electrodynamic

cajunner said:


> okay, so in less, neutral terms, I think I see a design flaw regarding the spacing, then...
> 
> and yes, I established a hugely inappropriate test to conceal exposing this flaw, as something that would be inferred...
> 
> 
> but since you put me on the spot, I am just going to say it plain. A cast version of the basket as is, does not look very durable based on my judgment.
> 
> 
> my unprofessional, undereducated, non-engineer schooled, smartass armchair quarterback opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> it's not the end of the world, and since the actual cast dimensions are already said to be differing from the machined "one-offs" of these prototype parts, it's not actually going to matter what I think, or what I've brought forward.
> 
> It's just a guy looking at someone else's design and thinking how I would possibly do it differently, or just with a little different emphasis on the structured parts that are used to produce the floated motor aspect.
> 
> It's not meant as an insult, or a demand, or some kind of glory-seeking internet attack that sensitive people would misinterpret as a device of some sort....
> 
> but whatever, right? Hey, if the design itself cannot be discussed, AT ALL, then what is it doing here?
> 
> Is that my bad?


Don't assume that the cast version will be as open as this CNC version. Assuming/knowing that you think the cast version will be a replica of this CNC version I agree in that it would not be strong enough. However, the cast version will have a thicker mid-section (area below the spider landing) with large holes for ventilation. The cast version will not look exactly like this CNC version. Again, and hopefully for the last time, this CNC version is to ensure that the spacing, tolerances, distances, etc, are all adequate before production. If something needs to be changed on the cast version vs. the CNC version [regarding distances, clearances, etc] they will be changed for the final cast version. Lastly I am not tooling this basket to withstand a direct drop onto concrete from two feet in the air with the motor attached. If someone is doing the latter the basket breaking should be their last concern.


----------



## cajunner

Electrodynamic said:


> Don't assume that the cast version will be as open as this CNC version. Assuming/knowing that you think the cast version will be a replica of this CNC version I agree in that it would not be strong enough. However, the cast version will have a thicker mid-section (area below the spider landing) with large holes for ventilation. The cast version will not look exactly like this CNC version. Again, and hopefully for the last time, this CNC version is to ensure that the spacing, tolerances, distances, etc, are all adequate before production. If something needs to be changed on the cast version vs. the CNC version [regarding distances, clearances, etc] they will be changed for the final cast version. Lastly I am not tooling this basket to withstand a direct drop onto concrete from two feet in the air with the motor attached. If someone is doing the latter the basket breaking should be their last concern.


that sounds reasonable enough, I'm also going to say, (with my foot in my mouth, obviously) that the angle you have on the mid-section does not look like it will be enough once you add in the corrugation of the spider, unless you're using a raised spider landing...

and the dome of the original cone assembly appears to be flat now? Is that because you won't have easily produced versions of the cone structure until you order the run?


edit*

the cone is a dome, haha.. just looked again more closely at the provided pics...

edit*

I could see, instead of a gun-metal gray something contrasting like the arms in blued steel, and the modular basket using a pink copper...

but that's crazy.


thanks for clearing up those build details, the design looks a little like Gil Hibben knives..


----------



## gstokes

cajunner said:


> okay, so in less, neutral terms, I think I see a design flaw regarding the spacing, then...
> 
> and yes, I established a hugely inappropriate test to conceal exposing this flaw, as something that would be inferred...
> 
> 
> but since you put me on the spot, I am just going to say it plain. A cast version of the basket as is, does not look very durable based on my judgment.
> 
> my unprofessional, undereducated, non-engineer schooled, smartass armchair quarterback opinion.
> 
> Is that my bad?


I was just oke: fun at ya brother, we're all friends here at DIYMA..


----------



## Treesive

When using a cnc basket design like Nick did you can thin the basket down much more than you could with cast. Cast Iron is much more brittle than steel and can vary wildly on its properties mainly due to much of china using very bad foundry techniques(this also spills over into their steels but is much more prevalent in tooling steels than regular 1006/1010 etc). Now some benefits of cast iron over steel in most cases would be the rigidity, cost, and mainly the ability to mold into any shape without worrying about it shrinking a bunch after it cools. In audio it is important for the basket to not deform easily which could lead to interference etc. Cast does not deform well at all. It holds its shape or breaks/chips period. Steel will bend, flex, smash, etc.

There is a rough, simple introduction into the properties of some common Iron based materials for all of you knowledge seekers out there and how they would impact some things from an audio perspective.


----------



## chrisuns

Not to sure if this has been asked, yet ; but when do you think these would be shipping?


----------



## cajunner

Treesive said:


> When using a cnc basket design like Nick did you can thin the basket down much more than you could with cast. Cast Iron is much more brittle than steel and can vary wildly on its properties mainly due to much of china using very bad foundry techniques(this also spills over into their steels but is much more prevalent in tooling steels than regular 1006/1010 etc). Now some benefits of cast iron over steel in most cases would be the rigidity, cost, and mainly the ability to mold into any shape without worrying about it shrinking a bunch after it cools. In audio it is important for the basket to not deform easily which could lead to interference etc. Cast does not deform well at all. It holds its shape or breaks/chips period. Steel will bend, flex, smash, etc.
> 
> There is a rough, simple introduction into the properties of some common Iron based materials for all of you knowledge seekers out there and how they would impact some things from an audio perspective.


it's not likely that the baskets would be made in cast iron. The cast aluminum that is more likely, is also subject to porosity and various maladies that aren't found in the 6061 likely used in the billet machining for the one-offs.

Iron-based materials kind of suck in speaker manufacture due to the variable nature of eddy currents and how a big magnetic mass in the vicinity of the motor, can alter the field from both the coil and from the permanent magnet, to degrade the response, measurably...

but even as that may be true, the use of a billet model to produce 3-dimensional proof of concept, is pretty cool and somebody could have built it in plastic with a 3-D printer for that purpose...


although I suspect there will be rounds of various tests dealing with BL and excursion limits and maybe some air pressure/turbulence near vents, and whatnot...

maybe it's just me but I now feel like I am capable of designing a subwoofer based on the "concept car" entertainment value, sort of like how those guys that build custom knives do their thing...

now I'm not saying it would be easy or simple but as the process has been laid out here, it doesn't look altogether complicated, does anyone else get that respective notion?

And I think that's the trick of it, we only see the end results of hours and days, maybe weeks and even months, of preparatory work by what appears to be the single design author, when speaker companies have R & D departments farming out each design feature for the patent people to process and they can stick some tag of uniqueness on the new skids...

and understanding the purpose of a basket composition, remains an artistic, and therefore trademark-"able" feature set..

look at Alphasonik, with their weird greek letter built into their basket/shroud casting, like that was engineered for functionality, haha..


----------



## jgarcia1925

Wow. Just caught up. **** it im buying this. Hands down beautiful looking woofer. Unless I find a deal on a MKIV I can live with that too


Sent from my distraction device


----------



## Treesive

cajunner said:


> it's not likely that the baskets would be made in cast iron. The cast aluminum that is more likely, is also subject to porosity and various maladies that aren't found in the 6061 likely used in the billet machining for the one-offs.
> 
> Iron-based materials kind of suck in speaker manufacture due to the variable nature of eddy currents and how a big magnetic mass in the vicinity of the motor, can alter the field from both the coil and from the permanent magnet, to degrade the response, measurably...


You are correct. I'm not sure why I went with iron as my medium of choice in my example. Just the first thing that comes to mind when I hear cast I guess.


----------



## gstokes

cajunner said:


> look at Alphasonik, with their weird greek letter built into their basket/shroud casting, like that was engineered for functionality, haha..


Or Audiobahn with their murdered out series of subwoofers


----------



## gstokes

Electrodynamic said:


> .. these particular prototypes should be mounted inverse.


do you mean bolted to the inside of a cabinet and not like a traditional subwoofer that you drop into an enclosure from the outside ?


----------



## Electrodynamic

Excursion video of the prototype in action:


----------



## etroze

Man that thing moves for a shallow mount sub.


----------



## Bmxnick101

Nice!!!


----------



## LaserSVT

Well that gives me a new problem. My MK IVs are only 1" above the floor and it looks like the MK V will hit it when pushed hard.


----------



## quality_sound

What's the actual excursion limit? It looks like you were barely tickling that thing. There was a LOT of unused surround.


----------



## jsnstanley

18mm one way according to the first post.


----------



## Electrodynamic

quality_sound said:


> What's the actual excursion limit? It looks like you were barely tickling that thing. There was a LOT of unused surround.





jsnstanley said:


> 18mm one way according to the first post.


18mm linear. 22mm peak. One way. The good thing about this modular basket is it shows where we need to adjust clearances to allow proper excursion. I used cap head screws and also brought the motor support arms too close to the gap so the spider is hitting the motor support arms and the screw heads on this iteration. Obviously the latter will be changed for the cast basket which will allow approximately 0.5" more stroke than the video shows.

And yes the surround was poised perfectly. It was supposed to be that way. The result will be a very flat Kms/Cms curve. 

FWIW, the diaphragm is still larger on the mkV than the mkIV so there is more surface area.


----------



## quality_sound

I knew it had more potential. This thing is going to be silly good. It's pretty damned quiet too. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Looks like a winner so far Nick! Great job on the design.


----------



## captainobvious

cajunner said:


> okay, so in less, neutral terms, I think I see a *design flaw* regarding the spacing, then...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my *unprofessional, undereducated, non-engineer schooled, smartass armchair quarterback opinion.*


I'm not sure why you think posts like these would be helpful. You admit to knowing nothing about the design and have no backround, experience or education in that department but feel qualified to point out potential "design flaws" publicly in Nicks thread? And this is not the first time.

Why? 

Then people complain that Nick is short in some of his postings here. People- this is exactly why! He could just as easily manufacture the product while keeping us in the dark of the process. I'm quite certain he knows what he is doing and is not 'making it up as he goes along' throwing darts at the wall and seeing what sticks.


----------



## 1fishman

captainobvious said:


> I'm not sure why you think posts like these would be helpful. You admit to knowing nothing about the design and have no backround, experience or education in that department but feel qualified to point out potential "design flaws" publicly in Nicks thread? And this is not the first time.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Then people complain that Nick is short in some of his postings here. People- this is exactly why! He could just as easily manufacture the product while keeping us in the dark of the process. I'm quite certain he knows what he is doing and is not 'making it up as he goes along' throwing darts at the wall and seeing what sticks.


You don't have to be an expert to have opinion. You shouldn't have to be an expert to have a question about the structure or anything else.
The conflict that happened about shipping resulted in flat rate shipping that saved All his customers a lot of money. it was a Win Win! So is it bad to question some things? 

If you saw your house being framed were structural support beams on the second floor, were being placed on top of - first floor non load bearing walls, would you not question that? I don't think you have to be an expert to want to no the reasoning behind that. It's only a question! 

I'm a retired structural aircraft mechanic and i don't consider myself a expert ether. I have seen and repaired hundreds of flaws in structures that were designed by teams of very highly qualified engineers, only to later improve those original designs... The dozens engineers I've worked with over the years really appreciated feedback form us when we saw a potential issue with a design. The design issue, (4 spokes 5 arms) that was point out earlier is a fact not a opinion. Weather it would effect performance or durability is a opinion from my perspective, without more info. Personally, even though this version of the BMV looks absolutely amazing, i'm glad he's changing it for production.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Since the 4 spoke to 5 spoke thing keeps coming up, let me ask a question. Did anyone consider that this "may" have been done purposely? Similar to the golden ratio idea of spreading out the resonances? With 5 equal spokes on both parts, mounting up all equally, all 5 spokes, and semi-circles are going to resonate near the same frequency. With the mismatch, you spread out the resonances among multiple frequencies.



Now, I'm not saying this is what and or why what nick did or did not do. I really don't care, because if it reaches his performance indicators he listed on the first page, and they are reliable, it's a complete non-issue.


----------



## gstokes

Well, it doesn't take an aircraft structural mechanic to see that if Nick's subwoofer had wings, it would fly..

But that's just my unqualified opinion


----------



## 1fishman

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Since the 4 spoke to 5 spoke thing keeps coming up, let me ask a question. Did anyone consider that this "may" have been done purposely? Similar to the golden ratio idea of spreading out the resonances? .


Yes, that was exactly the original question.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

My only point was that as long as it's reliable, and reaches performance expectations, it doesn't really matter. And there are some things that nick just might not want to reveal as far as his reasons. It could be something he saw as a competitive advantage by keeping the reasoning to himself. 

In the end, everyone has the right to ask questions, he has the right not to give answers that he doesn't want to reveal. And if he makes it clear that he doesn't want to reveal something, people should continue to push for an answer. At that point it becomes trolling.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Or put another way...

If nick had designed this thing in secret, tested it, and it was finished and shipping with the performance that was promised, would anyone not buy it because of the spokes?


----------



## captainobvious

1fishman said:


> You don't have to be an expert to have opinion. You shouldn't have to be an expert to have a question about the structure or anything else.
> The conflict that happened about shipping resulted in flat rate shipping that saved All his customers a lot of money. it was a Win Win! So is it bad to question some things?
> 
> If you saw your house being framed were structural support beams on the second floor, were being placed on top of - first floor non load bearing walls, would you not question that? I don't think you have to be an expert to want to no the reasoning behind that. It's only a question!
> 
> I'm a retired structural aircraft mechanic and i don't consider myself a expert ether. I have seen and repaired hundreds of flaws in structures that were designed by teams of very highly qualified engineers, only to later improve those original designs... The dozens engineers I've worked with over the years really appreciated feedback form us when we saw a potential issue with a design. The design issue, (4 spokes 5 arms) that was point out earlier is a fact not a opinion. Weather it would effect performance or durability is a opinion from my perspective, without more info. Personally, even though this version of the BMV looks absolutely amazing, i'm glad he's changing it for production.



I understand what you're saying, however, please point out the actual question you're referring to in this post (below). I haven't seen one. Only conjecture and chaff pointing out how he would do it differently and the "flaws" he sees in the design in one breath, while self admitting he knows nothing about the mechanics, physics, etc involved in another. 

If someone has questions, great- ask a question respectfully to the designer, there's no problem with that. This is not what is happening here though.
Nick has already chimed in on the 4 spokes, 5 arms* non-issue*. That is a fact. It is also a fact that this is a one-off sample set for testing purposes and is not indicative of the end production product. 

That's all I have to say on that matter. I'm off to do some drop tests of subwoofers...  :laugh:




cajunner said:


> okay, so in less, neutral terms, I think I see a design flaw regarding the spacing, then...
> 
> and yes, I established a hugely inappropriate test to conceal exposing this flaw, as something that would be inferred...
> 
> 
> but since you put me on the spot, I am just going to say it plain. A cast version of the basket as is, does not look very durable based on my judgment.
> 
> 
> my unprofessional, undereducated, non-engineer schooled, smartass armchair quarterback opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> it's not the end of the world, and since the actual cast dimensions are already said to be differing from the machined "one-offs" of these prototype parts, it's not actually going to matter what I think, or what I've brought forward.
> 
> It's just a guy looking at someone else's design and thinking how I would possibly do it differently, or just with a little different emphasis on the structured parts that are used to produce the floated motor aspect.
> 
> It's not meant as an insult, or a demand, or some kind of glory-seeking internet attack that sensitive people would misinterpret as a device of some sort....
> 
> but whatever, right? Hey, if the design itself cannot be discussed, AT ALL, then what is it doing here?
> 
> Is that my bad?


----------



## Electrodynamic

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Since the 4 spoke to 5 spoke thing keeps coming up, let me ask a question. Did anyone consider that this "may" have been done purposely? Similar to the golden ratio idea of spreading out the resonances? With 5 equal spokes on both parts, mounting up all equally, all 5 spokes, and semi-circles are going to resonate near the same frequency. With the mismatch, you spread out the resonances among multiple frequencies.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, I'm not saying this is what and or why what nick did or did not do. I really don't care, because if it reaches his performance indicators he listed on the first page, and they are reliable, it's a complete non-issue.


Good point. It was done for form and function. Hind-sight the spider landing and motor bolt pattern should have five matching areas with the basket arms but I drew the motor bolt pattern months before I drew the basket. Five arms is plenty strong enough to hold the light weight motor. It would be totally different if the motor weighed 70 lbs, but the entire driver weighs less than 20 lbs.


----------



## cajunner

captainobvious said:


> I understand what you're saying, however, please point out the actual question you're referring to in this post (below). I haven't seen one. Only conjecture and chaff pointing out how he would do it differently and the "flaws" he sees in the design in one breath, while self admitting he knows nothing about the mechanics, physics, etc involved in another.
> 
> If someone has questions, great- ask a question respectfully to the designer, there's no problem with that. This is not what is happening here though.
> Nick has already chimed in on the 4 spokes, 5 arms* non-issue*. That is a fact. It is also a fact that this is a one-off sample set for testing purposes and is not indicative of the end production product.
> 
> That's all I have to say on that matter. I'm off to do some drop tests of subwoofers...  :laugh:


first, let me say that by questioning my "questioning" as a matter of "chaff and conjecture" let's remember what happened last time someone 


asked questions.


of course, you may not realize that the questions were asked, going off of drawings and here you have a prototype, so the new line of intent, or content, as it were, deals with something you might have missed in your zeal to call out anyone who would dare...

ask.

the problems with internet back and forth have been laid out many times, and the post you have a problem with, is at least half filled with what I call, "smoothing" parts.

you know why?

because I don't want it to be twisted, I don't want people to accuse me of running off a speaker designer who shares how and why he does things, on account of some misunderstanding.

half of what you call "chaff and conjecture" is just the obviating and the proofing of a point, that could have been much more concisely approached and answered if not for previous attempts reaching a different locale in the online back and forth, kiddie table of discussion grounds.

so if we don't have to run around in circles because people prefer to bark at others, let's get on with it.


----------



## gstokes

captainobvious said:


> That's all I have to say on that matter. I'm off to do some drop tests of subwoofers...  :laugh:


ROFLMAO !!!!!

But seriously, I about fell out of my wheelchair


----------



## cajunner

Electrodynamic said:


> Good point. It was done for form and function. Hind-sight the spider landing and motor bolt pattern should have five matching areas with the basket arms but I drew the motor bolt pattern months before I drew the basket. Five arms is plenty strong enough to hold the light weight motor. It would be totally different if the motor weighed 70 lbs, but the entire driver weighs less than 20 lbs.


wow.

very big of you to admit this, imho.

brings a lot of the conjecture and the chaff of wondering how it may have happened, to a collective close.

this kind of transparency makes your brand name.


----------



## quality_sound

1fishman said:


> You don't have to be an expert to have opinion. You shouldn't have to be an expert to have a question about the structure or anything else.
> The conflict that happened about shipping resulted in flat rate shipping that saved All his customers a lot of money. it was a Win Win! So is it bad to question some things?
> 
> If you saw your house being framed were structural support beams on the second floor, were being placed on top of - first floor non load bearing walls, would you not question that? I don't think you have to be an expert to want to no the reasoning behind that. It's only a question!
> 
> I'm a retired structural aircraft mechanic and i don't consider myself a expert ether. I have seen and repaired hundreds of flaws in structures that were designed by teams of very highly qualified engineers, only to later improve those original designs... The dozens engineers I've worked with over the years really appreciated feedback form us when we saw a potential issue with a design. The design issue, (4 spokes 5 arms) that was point out earlier is a fact not a opinion. Weather it would effect performance or durability is a opinion from my perspective, without more info. Personally, even though this version of the BMV looks absolutely amazing, i'm glad he's changing it for production.


]

That's true, opinions are like assholes. One should, however, be an expert or a measure of experience in a field before questioning another.


----------



## LaserSVT

Just struck a deal on a new amp just for these subs.


----------



## jgarcia1925

LaserSVT said:


> Just struck a deal on a new amp just for these subs.



I need to find out what people are planning to run on these. Time to shop around. 


Sent from my distraction device


----------



## LaserSVT

I plan on running a hair over a kilowatt to a pair of them.


----------



## Gomer Pilot

Need to do some measuring to see if I have the depth or need to solve that problem. The dual V9s should be fine.


----------



## Electrodynamic

After seeing the mkV in action I decided to make the driver a little shallower for a small sacrifice in Xmech. Instead of 25mm one-way Xmech the driver will have 23mm of one-way Xmech. The driver will be slightly shallower than 3.95" and will use a slightly different motor. The motor will be the same physical size but it will look different as it will not have a pole vent. I've also adjusted the topology a little bit for better BL symmetry which also shaved 0.5mm off of the mounting depth. Here is a cutaway of how the new motor will look. The blue part is the pole sleeve and the green part is the magnet - simply colored that way for easy distinction. The bolt pattern will be a five bolt pattern to match up with the five arms of the basket and the bolt pattern has been shoved as far out as possible without impacting structural integrity so the basket will not interfere with rearward excursion at all.


----------



## jgarcia1925

My goodness being an engineer, I have seriously been sold by the amount of thought that has been put into these. Holy crap. I'm either buying a used MKIV or just saving and getting this one. Wow


Sent from my distraction device


----------



## Inferno333

I'm always impressed by the design work put into your drivers. 

And I'm especially fond of the machined in ledge to align the magnet so it's perfect every time.


----------



## F150SQguy

I'm hoping my hd1200/1 will be enough for 2 of these beauties


----------



## kmbkk

jgarcia1925 said:


> I need to find out what people are planning to run on these. Time to shop around.
> 
> 
> Sent from my distraction device


I'm going to run a Mosconi AS300.2 on one of the subs.


----------



## WhiteL02

F150SQguy said:


> I'm hoping my hd1200/1 will be enough for 2 of these beauties


I would say that running a little bit bigger box that 1200 will make them dance!


----------



## jgarcia1925

Thanks for the inputs guys. Really looking for a good amp that can handle one of these, and that hopefully has a small footprint. I will look into these amps you guys mentioned. Feel free to message me with suggestions of you guys see this post 


Sent from my distraction device


----------



## Electrodynamic

F150SQguy said:


> I'm hoping my hd1200/1 will be enough for 2 of these beauties





kmbkk said:


> I'm going to run a Mosconi AS300.2 on one of the subs.


Power handling and power requirement are two totally different things. Thermal vs. excursion limited. Power needed vs. power required. Etc. All of the latter are different variables you[we] need to think about when desinging a system. Sure the mkV has a larger diameter coil but the coil is not indestructible. Neither is the mkV going to be excursion unlimited - it has its limits.


----------



## jgarcia1925

Electrodynamic said:


> Power handling and power requirement are two totally different things. Thermal vs. excursion limited. Power needed vs. power required. Etc. All of the latter are different variables you[we] need to think about when desinging a system. Sure the mkV has a larger diameter coil but the coil is not indestructible. Neither is the mkV going to be excursion unlimited - it has its limits.



Maybe I'm asking too much, but is there a certain amp you would recommend for this subwoofer? I'm really considering this sub so I would like to have a and amp ready. I'm itching to get something soon 


Sent from my distraction device


----------



## kmbkk

jgarcia1925 said:


> Maybe I'm asking too much, but is there a certain amp you would recommend for this subwoofer? I'm really considering this sub so I would like to have a and amp ready. I'm itching to get something soon
> 
> 
> Sent from my distraction device


Nick originally said the sub will handle 750 watts RMS, so you can look at amps in that power range. I know my amp (AS300.2) is a little overkill, so I can always adjust the gains.


----------



## gstokes

jgarcia1925 said:


> Maybe I'm asking too much, but is there a certain amp you would recommend for this subwoofer?


Class D Monoblock..


----------



## lv_v

jgarcia1925 said:


> Maybe I'm asking too much, but is there a certain amp you would recommend for this subwoofer? I'm really considering this sub so I would like to have a and amp ready. I'm itching to get something soon
> 
> 
> Sent from my distraction device


I believe I just saw several JL HD750/1's in the classified section. A great option for you and this MkV.


----------



## jgarcia1925

Excellent guys. Will be looking out for them now. Now to start making the mold for a fiberglass box. That should be fun 


Sent from my distraction device


----------



## Electrodynamic

jgarcia1925 said:


> Maybe I'm asking too much, but is there a certain amp you would recommend for this subwoofer? I'm really considering this sub so I would like to have a and amp ready. I'm itching to get something soon
> 
> 
> Sent from my distraction device


Before we do any real-world testing we are preliminarily stating a power rating of 700 watts RMS. Once the official prototype is finished and tested we will provide more information.


----------



## jgarcia1925

Electrodynamic said:


> Before we do any real-world testing we are preliminarily stating a power rating of 700 watts RMS. Once the official prototype is finished and tested we will provide more information.



Thank you. Regardless I wanna say thanks for the excellent work. Cannot wait for the final product 


Sent from my distraction device


----------



## Electrodynamic

I received to new motor prices - one quote for a motor without a pole sleeve and a normal grade neo and one quote for a motor that utilizes a pole sleeve with a stronger grade neo. The price is literally $3.87 different between the two motors so needless to say I am getting one motor sample with the pole sleeve and the stronger grade neo. I'll keep the forum updated about when the sample should be finished, when it arrives, etc. 

PS: The sample I will be getting is the motor cutaway I posted a picture of one page back.


----------



## Electrodynamic

Inferno333 said:


> I'm always impressed by the design work put into your drivers.
> 
> And I'm especially fond of the machined in ledge to align the magnet so it's perfect every time.


Thanks.  It's the little things that you_ learn on a continuous basis like that machined ledge to ensure the magnet is centered every time without the need for a shim, the motor mounting bolts are M5's instead of M6's because M6's take away too much of the steel, and using regular steel M5 bolts instead of stainless steel bolts because stainless steel has no magnetic properties much like copper or aluminum, the gap vents are pushed outside of the OD of the pole sleeve so the sleeve does not interfere with gap vent air flow, etc. You'll also notice that the top of the pole piece is rounded over 1mm providing smooth airflow over the sleeve reducing air noise inside the motor. 

...but I think I may have just threw parts up in the air and when they landed they resembed a speaker. _


----------



## LaserSVT

Electrodynamic said:


> ...but I think I may have just threw parts up in the air and when they landed they resembled a speaker.


LOL!! :laugh:


----------



## WhiteL02

Electrodynamic said:


> Thanks.  It's the little things that you_ learn on a continuous basis like that machined ledge to ensure the magnet is centered every time without the need for a shim, the motor mounting bolts are M5's instead of M6's because M6's take away too much of the steel, and using regular steel M5 bolts instead of stainless steel bolts because stainless steel has no magnetic properties much like copper or aluminum, the gap vents are pushed outside of the OD of the pole sleeve so the sleeve does not interfere with gap vent air flow, etc. You'll also notice that the top of the pole piece is rounded over 1mm providing smooth airflow over the sleeve reducing air noise inside the motor.
> 
> ...but I think I may have just threw parts up in the air and when they landed they resembed a speaker. _


_

That's why I will be getting the V also. The IV is great so I know the V will be epic!_


----------



## nineball76

Ugh waiting is the hardest part. Any idea on eta for the pre-order? I think these will be the best option for under the seats of my new Ram 2500! 2 on an arc 4000se. Mmmm


----------



## quality_sound

Two of these on a 4000SE won't last very long if you get too happy with the volume. The 4000SE can easily get to 6KW if your charging system will support it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Black Rain

These SI V are suppose to handle 750w. Those Arcs will fry the SIs.


----------



## legend94

Black Rain said:


> These SI V are suppose to handle 750w. Those Arcs will fry the SIs.


only if the user is ignorant


----------



## WhereAmEye?

legend94 said:


> only if the user is ignorant


Everyone gets ignorant when they get into the music


----------



## lv_v

WhereAmEye? said:


> Everyone gets ignorant when they get into the music


^^ what he said! 20% over rated power, ok. 200% over rated power, good luck!


----------



## rton20s

WhereAmEye? said:


> Everyone gets ignorant when they get into the music





lv_v said:


> ^^ what he said! 20% over rated power, ok. 200% over rated power, good luck!


Really? This is DIYMA right? Since when have we forgotten how to properly set gains and make use of headroom? My tweeters are run on amp channels rated for 600% of the tweeter's rating.


----------



## legend94

rton20s said:


> Really? This is DIYMA right? Since when have we forgotten how to properly set gains and make use of headroom? My tweeters are run on amp channels rated for 600% of the tweeter's rating.


WE are on the same page but apparently physics change when subwoofers are introduced.

I have only 600 watts on my diyma12 and wonder if I could gain anything by putting 1200 on it


----------



## WhereAmEye?

Haha chill out guys, it was just a comment about enjoying music. This is diyma right


----------



## nineball76

quality_sound said:


> Two of these on a 4000SE won't last very long if you get too happy with the volume. The 4000SE can easily get to 6KW if your charging system will support it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



2 of these will be at 2 ohm. So barely over 2k to the pair. Also they're regulated amps, they do the same on 12v as they do on 17v.


----------



## nineball76

rton20s said:


> Really? This is DIYMA right? Since when have we forgotten how to properly set gains and make use of headroom? My tweeters are run on amp channels rated for 600% of the tweeter's rating.



Thank you. It seems everyone else thinks the 4kse is only capable of being ran at 110% @.5. Like no one uses it @2 ohm with the gains properly adjusted. 

750 rms doesn't mean it'll die if it sees a 1k burst for second. It should have 750 for some reasonable time, of which the dynamics of music will not allow.


----------



## schmiddr2

How to mount one of these inverse in a fiberglass enclosure?


----------



## cajunner

schmiddr2 said:


> How to mount one of these inverse in a fiberglass enclosure?


might help to see the production version first, since the basket is now going to include mounting arms that integrate with the spider landing/supports.


I hope these don't have any sag issue, it appears the cone made from what appears to be machined, spun aluminum and the supporting structure, along with a 5" voice coil with ample sizing on the gauge for the coils, will contribute to a high mass moving assembly with a softer suspension design goal...

:worried:


----------



## Black Rain

rton20s said:


> Really? This is DIYMA right? Since when have we forgotten how to properly set gains and make use of headroom? My tweeters are run on amp channels rated for 600% of the tweeter's rating.


You are right Rton20, I'm sure that 2 mkV @1000w each will yield some really good headroom. We sometimes get a lapse in judgement and forget the baselines in tuning. 

I am interested in this sub myself. I will be running it off a Zapco Z1kd, as long as they come in D2 models.


----------



## quality_sound

rton20s said:


> Really? This is DIYMA right? Since when have we forgotten how to properly set gains and make use of headroom? My tweeters are run on amp channels rated for 600% of the tweeter's rating.


It's not just about the available power, it's also about the demand of the driver and a sub will demand more than a tweeter will. I understand gain setting, I'm just saying you are so far beyond just adding power for headroom it's not even funny. I'm not against it, I'm just saying that **** happens. 



nineball76 said:


> 2 of these will be at 2 ohm. So barely over 2k to the pair. Also they're regulated amps, they do the same on 12v as they do on 17v.


Which is still 33% more power, even at 2 Ohms, that they can handle thermally, and there's still all that power available for dynamics. The regulated supply might actually be worse in this case because as he hammers on it most amps would make less power, this one won't. 



nineball76 said:


> Thank you. It seems everyone else thinks the 4kse is only capable of being ran at 110% @.5. Like no one uses it @2 ohm with the gains properly adjusted.
> 
> 750 rms doesn't mean it'll die if it sees a 1k burst for second. It should have 750 for some reasonable time, of which the dynamics of music will not allow.


That will depend on the music he's listening to. If it's got any kind of a repetitive beat, like rap or hip-hop, those dynamics go right out the window. I don't know his listening habits, again, just saying to be careful.



Black Rain said:


> You are right Rton20, I'm sure that 2 mkV @1000w each will yield some really good headroom. We sometimes get a lapse in judgement and forget the baselines in tuning.
> 
> I am interested in this sub myself. I will be running it off a Zapco Z1kd, as long as they come in D2 models.


I don't think anyone's forgotten baseline tuning. I've seen people set the gains on a 4000SE conservatively trying to do what rton is doing and still blow subs with more thermal capacity. I know how it's rated and I know my experiences with it. Lord knows I'm all for overpowering. Again, just playing devil's advocate.


----------



## rton20s

OK, we get it Captain Save A Sub. 

Seriously though, erring on the side of caution certainly would not be a bad thing. And I appreciate anyone who is trying to look out for other's best interests.


----------



## nineball76

quality_sound said:


> It's not just about the available power, it's also about the demand of the driver and a sub will demand more than a tweeter will. I understand gain setting, I'm just saying you are so far beyond just adding power for headroom it's not even funny. I'm not against it, I'm just saying that **** happens.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is still 33% more power, even at 2 Ohms, that they can handle thermally, and there's still all that power available for dynamics. The regulated supply might actually be worse in this case because as he hammers on it most amps would make less power, this one won't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That will depend on the music he's listening to. If it's got any kind of a repetitive beat, like rap or hip-hop, those dynamics go right out the window. I don't know his listening habits, again, just saying to be careful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone's forgotten baseline tuning. I've seen people set the gains on a 4000SE conservatively trying to do what rton is doing and still blow subs with more thermal capacity. I know how it's rated and I know my experiences with it. Lord knows I'm all for overpowering. Again, just playing devil's advocate.



Listening will be 90% rock, 10% anything else with little to no rap. Again, if rated properly, 750 is not a millisecond capacity of the sub, rather a constant ability of handling that for an extended period of time, where music will not allow that. Think about how Arc rates their subs and speakers, black 12's are 500 rms/1000 music. I'd think these would be 7-750 rms / 1500 music. Roughly.


----------



## Electrodynamic

cajunner said:


> might help to see the production version first, since the basket is now going to include mounting arms that integrate with the spider landing/supports.
> 
> 
> I hope these don't have any sag issue, it appears the cone made from what appears to be machined, spun aluminum and the supporting structure, along with a 5" voice coil with ample sizing on the gauge for the coils, will contribute to a high mass moving assembly with a softer suspension design goal...
> 
> :worried:


Where did I post that the BM mkV will use a 5" coil? It will use a 3" coil, not a 5" coil. You can not speculate on sag if you do not know the mass or the suspension compliance. Neither of the latter has been solidified or posted about yet.

:should ask for deails before posting a worried emoticon:


----------



## LaserSVT

Headroom is a glorious thing. I just doubled the power to my MKIVs and even though I am listening to music at the same levels as i had before it is surprising how much the subs cleaned up with rappid attack bass. I am only exceeding rated power by 10% now but have yet to use it all.

Now I can tell you that 500rms rated amp on a single MKIV rated at 450 watts will make a solid "whack!" during a brief bass transition as the sub reaches xmech. So I wouldnt take that 750 rating on the MKV to mean "Well thats if I just throw a single tone at it for 5 minutes." No, I think its more like dont give the damn thing more than 750 watts.

But I am no tech by any means and several on this page have far superior knowledge than I. Its just how I see it and what I have seen/heard with my own ears.


----------



## Electrodynamic

LaserSVT said:


> Headroom is a glorious thing. I just doubled the power to my MKIVs and even though I am listening to music at the same levels as i had before it is surprising how much the subs cleaned up with rappid attack bass. I am only exceeding rated power by 10% now but have yet to use it all.
> 
> Now I can tell you that 500rms rated amp on a single MKIV rated at 450 watts will make a solid "whack!" during a brief bass transition as the sub reaches xmech. So I wouldnt take that 750 rating on the MKV to mean "Well thats if I just throw a single tone at it for 5 minutes." No, I think its more like dont give the damn thing more than 750 watts.
> 
> But I am no tech by any means and several on this page have far superior knowledge than I. Its just how I see it and what I have seen/heard with my own ears.


Nice signature picture.  The BM mkV is going to have a LOT of suspension travel. I'll post another video of excursion once I get the new motor sample and also a new motor carrier piece made.


----------



## Electrodynamic

New motor pieces pictures:

Neo slug:



















Aluminum shorting ring:










Shoring ring and neo disk together:










Now the t-yoke needs to be finished along with the top plates, then assembly, and lastly shipment over to us so I can build the next prototype.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Any word on a release date Nick? Are you taking preorders yet?


----------



## Electrodynamic

deeppinkdiver said:


> Any word on a release date Nick? Are you taking preorders yet?


Nope. Gotta wait on the new, revised, fully functional prototype motor to arrive. Then I need to have Nathan at CNC TEK make me a new motor carrier. Lastly I need to get the one-piece cast aluminum basket design finished and tooled up. 

...then I can open up pre-ordering.


----------



## Arete

Electrodynamic said:


> Nope. Gotta wait on the new, revised, fully functional prototype motor to arrive. Then I need to have Nathan at CNC TEK make me a new motor carrier. Lastly I need to get the one-piece cast aluminum basket design finished and tooled up.
> 
> ...then I can open up pre-ordering.


Waiting sux.  Do you have any of the previous version left? I'm probably going to wait for the new ones... just curious. Oh and have you determined power handling and Xmax yet? I heard 750 rms thrown around at one point...


----------



## ImK'ed

These are gonna kick ass! Im still amazed at how loud and low the mkiv can get i have 50 percent more power available than the subs rated power but im Very conservative with gains and used a dmm to get an idea how much power they will see and i still have it reduced at headunit. My subs probably only seeing 3-400 on music and its enough for and i still consider my self a bass lover so 450-500 on these subs is definetly enough.


----------



## LaserSVT

Please hold off on these for a bit. I am trying to get a P99. If these appear first ...... im screwed. LOL


----------



## Souldrop

I can't wait to see the final product!


----------



## Electrodynamic

Arete said:


> Waiting sux.  Do you have any of the previous version left? I'm probably going to wait for the new ones... just curious. Oh and have you determined power handling and Xmax yet? I heard 750 rms thrown around at one point...


Power handling will probably be rated at 750 watts RMS. Xmax is going to be 17mm or 18mm depending on how well the final prototype measures on Klippel. In FEM it is a hair over 17mm but with a few little extra design touches inside the motor it might Klippel at/near 18mm. Enclosure size and type will be the same - 0.5 ft^3 sealed.

PS: Is anyone good with CAD? If so please send me an email. The guy I have been using for CAD work over the past two years has fallen off the face of the planet so I need someone that can assist in CAD drawings using Solidworks. I can use build house CAD workers but that usually takes a very very long time to get everything measured and drawn to spec. I can even pay in speakers/woofer(s) if you prefer.


----------



## ThreeMan

Wow.


----------



## Electrodynamic

ThreeMan said:


> Wow.


You're located in Charlotte? I live less than 10 minutes away from the north part of Charlotte.


----------



## cajunner

Electrodynamic said:


> Where did I post that the BM mkV will use a 5" coil? It will use a 3" coil, not a 5" coil. You can not speculate on sag if you do not know the mass or the suspension compliance. Neither of the latter has been solidified or posted about yet.
> 
> :should ask for deails before posting a worried emoticon:


sorry, I don't know how I got that 5" coil spec, I must be mixing and matching ideas while on powerful medications, I'll try and do better in my speculation.

here's a no worries smiley emoticon, 

and I am glad you are pushing forward with the new sub instead of dragging your feet on it and making people excited about audio.


----------



## shillermanlite

Electrodynamic said:


> Nope. Gotta wait on the new, revised, fully functional prototype motor to arrive. Then I need to have Nathan at CNC TEK make me a new motor carrier. Lastly I need to get the one-piece cast aluminum basket design finished and tooled up.
> 
> ...then I can open up pre-ordering.


Hey Nick,
Will you please provide a rough estimate for the opening of the pre-order on the MKV? I think that would be great for people that missed out on the MKIV. I have your MKIV sub and it is awesome. I can't image how much better this will be.


----------



## ThreeMan

Electrodynamic said:


> You're located in Charlotte? I live less than 10 minutes away from the north part of Charlotte.


I know! I am fortunate that you are close and have neglected to get up there and pick up some MKIVs before they were gone. 

Now I have to wait to try one or two or three of these beauties!


----------



## Arete

Electrodynamic said:


> Power handling will probably be rated at 750 watts RMS. Xmax is going to be 17mm or 18mm depending on how well the final prototype measures on Klippel. In FEM it is a hair over 17mm but with a few little extra design touches inside the motor it might Klippel at/near 18mm. Enclosure size and type will be the same - 0.5 ft^3 sealed.
> 
> PS: Is anyone good with CAD? If so please send me an email. The guy I have been using for CAD work over the past two years has fallen off the face of the planet so I need someone that can assist in CAD drawings using Solidworks. I can use build house CAD workers but that usually takes a very very long time to get everything measured and drawn to spec. I can even pay in speakers/woofer(s) if you prefer.


If it's 18mm Xmax it will be 2 mm more then the JL TW3 and Alpine and higher power handling AND requires a smaller box. Sweet! I want to do a sub install in the corner of my trunk. .5 would be perfect. I just wish I knew when the preorders might open. Are you willing to give any sort of time frame? 1 month? 3 months? 5months?


----------



## Treesive

Electrodynamic said:


> PS: Is anyone good with CAD? If so please send me an email. The guy I have been using for CAD work over the past two years has fallen off the face of the planet so I need someone that can assist in CAD drawings using Solidworks. I can use build house CAD workers but that usually takes a very very long time to get everything measured and drawn to spec. I can even pay in speakers/woofer(s) if you prefer.


I am a tooling designer but I do not use Solidworks so that may be an issue on your end that can not be overcome. If still interested I may be able to help out.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Nick I may beable to help in Unigraphics. (NX) it is a CAD based design system, very strong tool. Ill PM you my work email

Email sent to you from work-


----------



## Electrodynamic

Arete said:


> If it's 18mm Xmax it will be 2 mm more then the JL TW3 and Alpine and higher power handling AND requires a smaller box. Sweet! I want to do a sub install in the corner of my trunk. .5 would be perfect. I just wish I knew when the preorders might open. Are you willing to give any sort of time frame? 1 month? 3 months? 5months?


I know someone else asked as well about the time frame. Honestly pre-ordering is at least 3 months out. The carrier has to be modified, new surround material[composition] will be tested, basket drawing needs finished, etc. I can test the other parts besides the basket thanks to Nathan at CNC TEK making me the modular basket so I don't have to wait on the tooling for the one-piece cast basket to be finished before solidifying the design. 

I'll keep the forum updated though. Right now the funds for the new prototype motor just got sent because my bank thought it was fraud that I wanted to send funds to a new vendor, haha.


----------



## Electrodynamic

deeppinkdiver said:


> Nick I may beable to help in Unigraphics. (NX) it is a CAD based design system, very strong tool. Ill PM you my work email
> 
> Email sent to you from work-


My PM's are disabled. But as fate would have it I just got an email from my CAD guy and he promises pictures or renderings of the new basket in a few days. Figures he sends me an email right when I reach out to other people, haha.


----------



## Arete

Electrodynamic said:


> I know someone else asked as well about the time frame. Honestly pre-ordering is at least 3 months out. The carrier has to be modified, new surround material[composition] will be tested, basket drawing needs finished, etc. I can test the other parts besides the basket thanks to Nathan at CNC TEK making me the modular basket so I don't have to wait on the tooling for the one-piece cast basket to be finished before solidifying the design.
> 
> I'll keep the forum updated though. Right now the funds for the new prototype motor just got sent because my bank thought it was fraud that I wanted to send funds to a new vendor, haha.


Thanks for throwing me a bone.  Looks like I will have to get me a little something to fill the void while I wait. Probably the Alpine. JL requires to large of a box. It will be nice to be able to compare the two when I switch.


----------



## Jboogie

I missed out on the IV's. Gonna have to keep a close eye on the V's.


----------



## Electrodynamic

Motor is finished:

Backplate:









Yoke:









Yoke and magnet:









Completed assembly:


----------



## captainobvious

Hmmmm

I'm no structural or acoustic design engineer, but

I'm worried about the spacing proximity of those mounting holes in relation to the edge of the magnet assembly. I'd also recommend a 6 leg carrier for that 5 hole mounting point to evenly space out the odd numbered configuration. Also I think white's may be better for this design than yolks- much less cholesterol.






Looks great Nick!


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Very nice


----------



## Electrodynamic

captainobvious said:


> Hmmmm
> 
> I'm no structural or acoustic design engineer, but
> 
> I'm worried about the spacing proximity of those mounting holes in relation to the edge of the magnet assembly. I'd also recommend a 6 leg carrier for that 5 hole mounting point to evenly space out the odd numbered configuration. Also I think white's may be better for this design than yolks- much less cholesterol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks great Nick!


If the top plate was aluminum you could worry about the proximity of the bolt holes to the OD of the plate but the material is 1018 steel with the total weight of the motor weighing in at less than 15 lbs. I'm also using five arms, not six. The motor weighs so little I could use three arms and be solid, but I'm using five arms because I like the look of five arms better than six arms. And I ate an egg white the morning that I designed the motor...does that help?


----------



## Bmxnick101

Had an employer who always said things are more aesthetically pleasing in odd numbers. Have to say, I agree.


----------



## sundownz

Looks horrible -- should have 3D printed the whole thing


----------



## ImK'ed

Nick how much power would be needed to reach xmax in recommended enclosure?


----------



## LaserSVT

Bmxnick101 said:


> Had an employer who always said things are more aesthetically pleasing in odd numbers. Have to say, I agree.


Does he not like boobs?


----------



## shillermanlite

LaserSVT said:


> Does he not like boobs?


Must be a she?


----------



## ImK'ed

LaserSVT said:


> Does he not like boobs?


****ing classic! Made me laugh my ass off! Unless you include the ***** aswel and make it a trio but thats not always on show until after a little later


----------



## 1fishman

LaserSVT said:


> Does he not like boobs?


You've never seen a girl with 3 boobs


----------



## ImK'ed

1fishman said:


> You've never seen a girl with 3 boobs


Total recall?


----------



## CDT FAN

LaserSVT said:


> Does he not like boobs?


Only the ones in Total Recall.

http://i48.tinypic.com/22hohg.jpg


----------



## Bmxnick101

LaserSVT said:


> Does he not like boobs?



Lol, sometimes I wondered.


----------



## Electrodynamic

New prototype motor showed up a few days ago. This motor is literally 3x stronger than the previous motor. In all honesty the first pair of prototype motors were not packaged properly and they hit against each other during shipping essentially demagnetizing both motors. When they arrived each motor measured 2300 gauss. 

This new single, revised, sample measures slightly over 6000 gauss. Solid pole design, tighter gap, revised gap geometry/symmetry which reduced mounting depth by 0.5mm, larger slug of neo (smaller ID), etc. 

I'm having the spider landing / motor carrier re-drawn for the modular CNC basket along with a revised/heavier coil:dome carrier for the next time I assemble the driver. I'll keep you guys in the loop. I'm super busy for the next three weeks but I'll report back as soon as possible.  

Side shot of the motor:









Motor and 6-layer copper coil:









Motor with coil inserted to show gap (relax cajunner, the coil is forward for demonstration purposes only)  :


















Gauss reading:


----------



## sirbOOm

Not proud of what I'm about to say but - GET THIS F'R OUT CUZ I'M IMPATIENT!


----------



## quality_sound

Maybe it's just me, but I VERY strongly dislike the chrome on the TM65s and it looks like this motor is the same. Something about the finish looks cheap. I know it's great quality but aesthetically it doesn't convey "class". If you can change the finish, personally, I would. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ImK'ed

Nick what would be the recommended power for this? I know the max rms i mean whats the minimum you would recommend for full excursion?


----------



## WhiteL02

Looking good!


----------



## gckless

quality_sound said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I VERY strongly dislike the chrome on the TM65s and it looks like this motor is the same. Something about the finish looks cheap. I know it's great quality but aesthetically it doesn't convey "class". If you can change the finish, personally, I would.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That bad? To each their own I guess, I like the finish. What would you change it to?


----------



## quality_sound

gckless said:


> That bad? To each their own I guess, I like the finish. What would you change it to?


It looks like chromed plastic or a bad metal chrome job. It's because the finish isn't smooth. I'd either go polished or leave it black.


----------



## Electrodynamic

quality_sound said:


> It looks like chromed plastic or a bad metal chrome job. It's because the finish isn't smooth. I'd either go polished or leave it black.


You think this is a bad chrome job?









The pictures I have posted of the prototype motor are pictures of the one prototype motor. Production motors will have a more consistent finish to the chrome. And the finish of the mkV motor is staying chrome. Not black, green, blue, red, etc.


----------



## legend94

Looks good to me. What does it matter anyways? 

I guess if you had an acrylic box or inverted them, probably less than one percent of buyers.


----------



## bbfoto

Just my opinion as well, but I agree that it and the TM65 looks somewhat "AudioBahn-ish" with the chrome.  Of course, I've never even seen a final production unit in person, so there's that.  We all know that this will be a quality product and not a Polished Turd, haha, but yeah, I'm not a big fan of da chrome either, even if it's "good" chrome...it just ain't my style I guess. 

I don't think it really matters though, as I wouldn't think shallow subwoofers are often implemented with the @ss-end out.

Does the chrome job add much to the manufacturing/production cost? If so, and there is a simpler and less expensive option, then yes, I would bee keen to lose the chrome as well.

Either way it's the sound that matters, and I would hardly ever see even the front cone once it or they were installed, so you can make them hot pink with purple polka-dots if you'd like. 

I do have one serious question, though. Will this one be available with a 4-Ohm DVC? I'd unfortunately have to give them a pass again if not.  

Glad to hear that you are busy, Nick. Hopefully it means that you are bringing home the bacon and that there are lots of happy customers getting some [email protected] speakers. I'm eager to see this particular driver come to fruition, though!


----------



## deeppinkdiver

I think some of the finish issues guys are pointing fingers at is the cut finish of the actual material before it is chromed. Looks like "chatter" to me, only way to not have chatter in some cases is to grind the finish, that is another operation and more money. I think they look great for their intended purpose and use. Im much more concerned about how amazing they are going to sound!


----------



## quality_sound

Electrodynamic said:


> You think this is a bad chrome job?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pictures I have posted of the prototype motor are pictures of the one prototype motor. Production motors will have a more consistent finish to the chrome. And the finish of the mkV motor is staying chrome. Not black, green, blue, red, etc.


I didn't say it WAS a bad chrome job, just that it LOOKED like a bad chrome job. And the finish on my TM65s was not smooth like that. Again, not saying it IS bad, just LOOKS that way.


----------



## quality_sound

deeppinkdiver said:


> I think some of the finish issues guys are pointing fingers at is the cut finish of the actual material before it is chromed. Looks like "chatter" to me, only way to not have chatter in some cases is to grind the finish, that is another operation and more money. I think they look great for their intended purpose and use. Im much more concerned about how amazing they are going to sound!


I didn't know the terminology but that's probably the case. Again, not unhappy with mine, just a suggestion for a cosmetic improvement. I've owned BM MkIVs, I have TM65's, and I'll probably buy the MkV's. I have ZERO issues with the product's performance, just the road Nick is going down cosmetically. I thought the MkIV's were damn near perfect, cosmetically.


----------



## LaserSVT

Are they done yet? Have you sent out my first pair? Hurry up!


----------



## Electrodynamic

bbfoto said:


> Just my opinion as well, but I agree that it and the TM65 looks somewhat "AudioBahn-ish" with the chrome.  Of course, I've never even seen a final production unit in person, so there's that.  We all know that this will be a quality product and not a Polished Turd, haha, but yeah, I'm not a big fan of da chrome either, even if it's "good" chrome...it just ain't my style I guess.
> 
> I don't think it really matters though, as I wouldn't think shallow subwoofers are often implemented with the @ss-end out.
> 
> Does the chrome job add much to the manufacturing/production cost? If so, and there is a simpler and less expensive option, then yes, I would bee keen to lose the chrome as well.
> 
> Either way it's the sound that matters, and I would hardly ever see even the front cone once it or they were installed, so you can make them hot pink with purple polka-dots if you'd like.
> 
> I do have one serious question, though. Will this one be available with a 4-Ohm DVC? I'd unfortunately have to give them a pass again if not.
> 
> Glad to hear that you are busy, Nick. Hopefully it means that you are bringing home the bacon and that there are lots of happy customers getting some [email protected] speakers. I'm eager to see this particular driver come to fruition, though!


Thanks for your light-hearted post. Not much of that around these days.  

Regarding the chrome finish - it does cost extra but only by a single dollar per production unit. The sonic advantages of chrome plating are worth the cost. Black, red, green, etc, colors are available but I am going to use a chrome finish on the mkV motors. If you want to change the color the motor on your mkV you have every right to paint it any color of your choice. 

Unfortunately the mkV will not be available in a D4 configuration. The mkV will only be available in a D2 configuration. 

I am very busy these days but I'm not sitting back raking in funds with a football-field-sized rake (despite popular belief). However, I am the only person that builds all HST drivers and HS-24's so I am extremely busy for the next three weeks building multiple OEM orders.


----------



## quality_sound

The chrome improves the sonics? How so? I'm all for functional improvements. 

The black with the screens on the MkIV was just SO sexy.


----------



## LaserSVT

I am also curious as to the benefits of chrome. Do you have a rough eta on them? I want the first set and will pay whenever you tell me to. So over the Mk iv they should be louder and hit lower buy still sound the same and work in the same size box?


----------



## Gomer Pilot

I don't know how much lower they could possibly hit. Mounting depth may be the only issue some MKIV users run into from my current understanding.


----------



## Electrodynamic

quality_sound said:


> *
> The chrome improves the sonics? How so?* I'm all for functional improvements.
> 
> The black with the screens on the MkIV was just SO sexy.


Read about the procedure. Your answer is in that information. Here's a hint, it rhymes with flopper.


----------



## Electrodynamic

LaserSVT said:


> I am also curious as to the benefits of chrome. Do you have a rough eta on them? I want the first set and will pay whenever you tell me to. So over the Mk iv they should be louder and hit lower buy still sound the same and work in the same size box?


F3 should be about the same in the same 0.5 ft^3 enclosure. Maybe a touch lower but not much. A substantial increase in LFE would hit the efficiency of the driver too much since its target is such a tiny sealed box. I am going to stay close to the sensitivity of the mkIV while the mkV offers improved power handling and higher linear and peak stroke and a more linear suspension (as if that was needed - the mkIV already had a VERY linear suspension).


----------



## ImK'ed

Nick do you think with 500rms available if your comparing both mkiv and mkv, do you think the mkv will produce and extra 1-2db of output?


----------



## Electrodynamic

ImK'ed said:


> Nick do you think with 500rms available if your comparing both mkiv and mkv, do you think the mkv will produce and extra 1-2db of output?


The mkIV won't handle that kind of power so yes the mkV will have output at that power level where as the mkIV will be blown at that level.


----------



## Blu

What is the total depth of the driver expected to be?


----------



## seafish

Blu said:


> What is the total depth of the driver expected to be?


In the first post he says less then 4".

IIRC, in later posts which have the mock ups, depth is only a little more then the mkIV version., so that would be somewhere between 3.5" and 4"


----------



## Electrodynamic

seafish said:


> In the first post he says less then 4".
> 
> IIRC, in later posts which have the mock ups, depth is only a little more then the mkIV version., so that would be somewhere between 3.5" and 4"


Correct. The prototype is sitting right at 3.95" now but the new motor will bring it down to 3.90" and the revised one-piece cast basket for production may bring it down to 3.75" in the end. I'll know more once I get the new moving parts in hand and build the next prototype for the mkV.


----------



## Velozity

I'm so ready for this to be released. I'm glad for the D2 coils because I need a bridged 4 ohm load for my new amp. Patiently waiting...


----------



## Black Rain

Electrodynamic said:


> The mkIV won't handle that kind of power so yes the mkV will have output at that power level where as the mkIV will be blown at that level.


I thought the new mkV was going to rms @750w not 500w?


----------



## Electrodynamic

Black Rain said:


> I thought the new mkV was going to rms @750w not 500w?


I didn't say power handling would be 500 watts. I said the mkV would not be blown at 500 watts.


----------



## Velozity

I plan to be well within it's capabilities then with a conservative 300 watts.


----------



## Blu

Electrodynamic said:


> Correct. The prototype is sitting right at 3.95" now but the new motor will bring it down to 3.90" and the revised one-piece cast basket for production may bring it down to 3.75" in the end. I'll know more once I get the new moving parts in hand and build the next prototype for the mkV.


Thanks for the clarification - I had seen a few different numbers mentioned, along with some of the revisions made along the way, and wasn't sure what the current expectation was.

I too, am eagerly looking forward to this new sub!

Kind regards,


----------



## ImK'ed

Running the mkiv now ive had those who appreciate the sense of blending into the front stage and those who say i cant hear the bass , but when i mute the sub they soon realise how much work it was actually doing. With more linear throw this mkv will be an epic replacement for already an amazing sub and i really appreciate the mounting depth as i now need a push chair in my hatchback


----------



## sotelomichael

quality_sound said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I VERY strongly dislike the chrome on the TM65s and it looks like this motor is the same. Something about the finish looks cheap. I know it's great quality but aesthetically it doesn't convey "class". If you can change the finish, personally, I would.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Some chrome can look nice, for example the Diamond Audio Macdaddy







. Beautiful subs


----------



## LSU777

Whats the eta?


----------



## quality_sound

sotelomichael said:


> Some chrome can look nice, for example the Diamond Audio Macdaddy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Beautiful subs



No one has said chrome can't look good. All
I've said was MINE didn't look good. It was simply a suggestion and at the end of the day it won't change my decision to buy or not. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Electrodynamic

LSU777 said:


> Whats the eta?


I just got finished with a TeamViewer meeting with my CAD guy and he will deliver a revised spider landing / motor support to use with the modular basket to use and take measurements and gather data before finalizing the measurements for the tooled basket mold. Moving along nicely yet safely to ensure the final mkV is proper.


----------



## Electrodynamic

Revised motor carrier and spider landing to adapt up to the new motor with an enlarged bolt pattern to eliminate the spider hitting the bolts during rearward excursion. Spider landing is also wider and the speaker terminal landing tabs have been moved down so the bolt does not interfere with rearward excursion. Nathan at CNC TEK will machine one of these for me in the near future so I can assemble the modular basket to the new motor:


----------



## LaserSVT

Is this an end of summer, end of year or next year thing?


----------



## nucci

That looks like a lot more economical basket. I like it!


----------



## edouble101

I am ready for the pre-order!


----------



## vinyfiny

edouble101 said:


> I am ready for the pre-order!


Ditto!


----------



## deeppinkdiver

I just cant wait, picked up another pair of MK IV.


----------



## Electrodynamic

LaserSVT said:


> Is this an end of summer, end of year or next year thing?


With the testing that needs to be done on the new set of moving parts along with the above motor/spider support along with the actual tooling of a new basket it will be more towards the end of the year.


----------



## vinyfiny

deeppinkdiver said:


> I just cant wait, picked up another pair of MK IV.


Where are people finding MK IV's f/s??? I'd like to buy one for my dad as he's looking for a shallow mount to go under the rear seat of his Tundra. Every time I find a f/s thread the sub is already gone:mean:.


----------



## LaserSVT

Electrodynamic said:


> With the testing that needs to be done on the new set of moving parts along with the above motor/spider support along with the actual tooling of a new basket it will be more towards the end of the year.


Okay. Serial number 1 & 2 are mine right?


----------



## Electrodynamic

LaserSVT said:


> Okay. Serial number 1 & 2 are mine right?


Sure thing! 


...only because the two CNC machined basket prototypes are mine, haha.


----------



## Innovative

What about me! LOL

Nathan


----------



## kmbkk

I'm not picky... I'll take #3!


----------



## Electrodynamic

Innovative said:


> What about me! LOL
> 
> Nathan


Hell, you make the CNC baskets so you can make your own parts and send them to me to make drivers from. That way there would be only 4 CNC basketed mkV's in the world. 

...until someone wanted to purchase the CNC versions. Nathan, could you CNC the basket arms to have serial numbers on them designating which CNC basket number the driver is? Just a thought.


----------



## Innovative

Electrodynamic said:


> Hell, you make the CNC baskets so you can make your own parts and send them to me to make drivers from. That way there would be only 4 CNC basketed mkV's in the world.
> 
> ...until someone wanted to purchase the CNC versions. Nathan, could you CNC the basket arms to have serial numbers on them designating which CNC basket number the driver is? Just a thought.


We could do that.


----------



## sotelomichael

quality_sound said:


> No one has said chrome can't look good. All
> I've said was MINE didn't look good. It was simply a suggestion and at the end of the day it won't change my decision to buy or not.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree, I don't believe I stated that you don't like the look of it, I just showed an example of good looking chrome. Not directed at you


----------



## Dr. PeePee

Hi electrodynamic! I thought this would be a great opportunity to ask: What amplifier(s) do you recommend for the Mk v?


----------



## Electrodynamic

Dr. PeePee said:


> Hi electrodynamic! I thought this would be a great opportunity to ask: What amplifier(s) do you recommend for the Mk v?


Any solid amplifier that produces 750 watts at 4 Ohms or 1 Ohm. Read - NO micro-amps (Audiopipe Mini style)!!


----------



## Ted J

Hey Electrodynamic, do you by chance have a drawing from the side and also from the top with estimated measurements? If you could have a BM mkiV measurements on a drawing as well (from the side and top as well) that would be great! I'm mostly concerned with how deep it is and also what the diameter of those little horns that stick out are and how deep they are.

I ask for I'm in the process of building out the enclosure for my BM mkiV and I might be able to make the back of the enclosure a little bigger to make it so if I wanted to upgrade to the BM mkV later might be possible but wanted to get some measurements to try and make a more educated guess.

Thanks!

Ted


----------



## LaserSVT

I swear to gawd Nick, if you paint those cones red I will kick you in the nuts.

And depending on cost I may be down for a pair of CNC ones.


----------



## Nismo

I'd love to have a high-Q 10" BM. I have about 4" of depth to work with, where my 6x9s and 4" are now (I'd remove them both, and use a pair of BMs). Having an IB BM would be tits.

I know this won't happen at this point, but I really don't like giving up the space in my trunk.

Sub looks great, Nick!

Eric


----------



## Dr. PeePee

Would this sub work well in a downward firing setup?


----------



## Gomer Pilot

Most likely, the MKIV works fantastic down firing.


----------



## LaserSVT

Gomer Pilot said:


> Most likely, the MKIV works fantastic down firing.


+1 big time. I have much stronger bass than the shops car with two SPG555s


----------



## Electrodynamic

Let me see if I can reply in order:

I've supplied mounting depth many times in this thread but the mounting depth will be between 3.95" and 3.90". It probably won't change much from that on production. I also need to make two prototypes using the new revised spider landing / motor carrier that I pictured last. After that I can get started on the one-piece cast basket. The modular frame is fantastic - allowing changes to the spider landing / motor carrier on the fly by only making a few new pieces instead of tooling up something only to find out it did not work 100% as planned and then having to re-tool it. 

Laser, the raw aluminum is going to be stock. Each user can paint any part of the BM mkV any color they wish. I am probably going to paint the dome of my mkV's in a semi-clear Lexus Matador Red Mica so you can still see the logo. But I'm not sure yet because regular aluminum will match my current silver VW color. 

Yes it will work down-firing.


----------



## Electrodynamic

Another update:

Since the carrier can not be modified significantly from its current state it is being left alone. Changing the carrier over to aluminum is a new charge of $9,000 so the material will stay plastic. To recap - the carrier was always spec'd to be made of aluminum but the mfg took it upon themselves to make it out of plastic because the two previous carriers were made of fireproof plastic. In hind-sight it's not so bad because if the carrier were made of aluminum it would short out against the flat sewn-on leads on top of the spider when the driver reached full stroke. Now being made out of slightly fiberglass impregnated ABS plstic (high temperature) the latter will never happen. The only downside was a sizeable reduction in weight. Thankfully the dome is easily changed and has been exactly doubled in thickness to make up for the carriers reduced plastic weight.

The surround material has been changed to a more firm rubber to help offset any voice coil offset due to the weight of the 6-layer copper coil. Same profile, shape, etc, just a different material composition.

This picture really doesn't look much different than before but the dome is thicker and the surround is made out of a different rubber material:


----------



## Cochese

Electrodynamic said:


> Any solid amplifier that produces 750 watts at 4 Ohms or 1 Ohm. Read - NO micro-amps (Audiopipe Mini style)!!


Not even my my 6150?


----------



## Ted J

Electrodynamic said:


> Let me see if I can reply in order:
> 
> I've supplied mounting depth many times in this thread but the mounting depth will be between 3.95" and 3.90".


Yes you have, but unless I missed it you didn't give specs on the diameter and depth of the horns as they taper down to where the motor is at and also how deep the horns are and the diameter of the motor at it's deepest part. That's the parts I'm most curious about.

The reason I ask is because if I need to upgrade to a BM mkV I wanted to make the enclosure more than likely fit it right away so I have an option if I happen to have any issues with my mkIV since getting one on shorter notice might be an issue.

If you don't want give out the measurements because you haven't got a final design of it done yet that is fine, but just saying that you gave the depth of a complex shaped designed doesn't help a whole lot when designing a fiberglass enclosure that will taper around some of the sides of the back of the speaker.


----------



## quality_sound

Ted J said:


> Yes you have, but unless I missed it you didn't give specs on the diameter and depth of the horns as they taper down to where the motor is at and also how deep the horns are and the diameter of the motor at it's deepest part. That's the parts I'm most curious about.
> 
> The reason I ask is because if I need to upgrade to a BM mkV I wanted to make the enclosure more than likely fit it right away so I have an option if I happen to have any issues with my mkIV since getting one on shorter notice might be an issue.
> 
> If you don't want give out the measurements because you haven't got a final design of it done yet that is fine, but just saying that you gave the depth of a complex shaped designed doesn't help a whole lot when designing a fiberglass enclosure that will taper around some of the sides of the back of the speaker.


Does your enclosure drastically taper in from the mounting cutout? I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be a direct swap.


----------



## Electrodynamic

Ted J said:


> Yes you have, but unless I missed it you didn't give specs on the diameter and depth of the horns as they taper down to where the motor is at and also how deep the horns are and the diameter of the motor at it's deepest part. That's the parts I'm most curious about.
> 
> The reason I ask is because if I need to upgrade to a BM mkV I wanted to make the enclosure more than likely fit it right away so I have an option if I happen to have any issues with my mkIV since getting one on shorter notice might be an issue.
> 
> If you don't want give out the measurements because you haven't got a final design of it done yet that is fine, but just saying that you gave the depth of a complex shaped designed doesn't help a whole lot when designing a fiberglass enclosure that will taper around some of the sides of the back of the speaker.


Ok, I understand now. Unfortunately I can't give you any more data yet because the one-piece cast frame has not been drawn to spec yet. I am holding off tooling the basket until the final prototype is built using the modular CNC frame.


----------



## Ted J

quality_sound said:


> Does your enclosure drastically taper in from the mounting cutout? I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be a direct swap.


Yes, I am needing the enclosure to taper in pretty quickly for the back of the enclosure is the part that will be needing to be shaped to fit an area if that makes sense. I have some wiggle room and I think i can make the mkV fit though by extending it out some to play for the future type thing.


----------



## Ted J

Electrodynamic said:


> Ok, I understand now. Unfortunately I can't give you any more data yet because the one-piece cast frame has not been drawn to spec yet. I am holding off tooling the basket until the final prototype is built using the modular CNC frame.


Makes sense and thanks for the info! I'll just do my best to make enough room for what I think will work and if it doesn't fit it doesn't fit. The BM mkIV is so freakin cool with how low profile it is and I pretty sure it will have plenty of output for me so I should be fine with it and probably just planning this for well, hearing that the mkIV isn't made anymore worries me for issues I could have but probably worrying for nothing.


----------



## Flinchy

2 minutes ago i was super sad when i realized i could no longer buy a pair of BM MkIV's come tax return... especially at their runout price

this makes me a tad happier though lol

is this going to have a SIMILAR depth/mounting profile to the MkIV? that's what was mainly drawing me to it, in combination with the quality.

ED: ooh a reasonably large amount more power handling over the IV too? that's nice... on the downside, i won't have enough amp to max out 2


----------



## quality_sound

The mounting depth has been talked about ad nauseum. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Flinchy

quality_sound said:


> The mounting depth has been talked about ad nauseum.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


my bad for not reading all 21 pages completely... i'll go back and do so then.


----------



## jriggs

Flinchy said:


> my bad for not reading all 21 pages completely... i'll go back and do so then.


Not necessary. Just the very first post that launched the thread.


----------



## quality_sound

People get all butt hurt when you tell them to search a thread. If only there was a way to search through a thread. Wait...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## legend94

if this sub has even 25-35 percent more output than the mkiv it will be epic.

you still too mad at me to sell me one, Nick?


----------



## deeppinkdiver

^ I knew you would come crawlin back..lol

Cant wait to get my 4 mkiv in my truck


----------



## legend94

deeppinkdiver said:


> ^ I knew you would come crawlin back..lol
> 
> Cant wait to get my 4 mkiv in my truck


yea yea, with having 4 mkiv in a truck you won't need to upgrade. but then again need and want are different


----------



## bertholomey

Well, I had what I would term a privilege to see the modular mkV the other day. It was a beautiful piece of art. Not trying to be funny when I say, if I were going to buy a mkV with the modular basket, I would buy 2.....one to mount in the car, and one to display in the Living Room. 

The cone and surround is stunning, but the floating arms and the motor are amazing to see. Nick hooked it up to the home amp and made it wiggle, wiggle, wiggle ?

Awesome to see the parts and pieces..... Much better to see it in action - doing what it was designed to do. Amazing job Nick!


----------



## Flinchy

quality_sound said:


> People get all butt hurt when you tell them to search a thread. If only there was a way to search through a thread. Wait...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


except you need very specific search terms to get the result you want..

and my bad, missed the one line mention in the first post, don't need to get all butthurt over a simple question

you know what could have prevented 2 replies bitching about the question, then 2 more replies bitching about the bitching?

answering it.


----------



## quality_sound

Flinchy said:


> except you need very specific search terms to get the result you want..
> 
> and my bad, missed the one line mention in the first post, don't need to get all butthurt over a simple question
> 
> you know what could have prevented 2 replies bitching about the question, then 2 more replies bitching about the bitching?
> 
> answering it.


And you could have saved ALL of that by simply searching for "depth"... What's so hard about that?


----------



## rton20s




----------



## legend94

rton20s said:


>


Lol

Let's petition Webster to add butthurt in 2016!


----------



## subwoofery

quality_sound said:


> People get all butt hurt when you tell them to search a thread. If only there was a way to search through a thread. Wait...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


To be honest, I do agree with your post. 

When I first joined the forum, I was all about reading and learning, searching and reading some more... Now, I'm like  "He's not even using the search button" 

I'm not telling people to do a search, I just skip their post - although, I get the ich to do it lol 

There's so much resources and knowledge, it's a shame that most people don't go back to very old threads to find their answers... 

Kelvin


----------



## legend94

subwoofery said:


> To be honest, I do agree with your post.
> 
> When I first joined the forum, I was all about reading and learning, searching and reading some more... Now, I'm like  "He's not even using the search button"
> 
> I'm not telling people to do a search, I just skip their post - although, I get the ich to do it lol
> 
> There's so much resources and knowledge, it's a shame that most people don't go back to very old threads to find their answers...
> 
> Kelvin


I agree as long as some bastard does not ask why they bumped the 3 year old thread. That irritates me because I like the continuation of old threads.


----------



## cajunner

legend94 said:


> I agree as long as some bastard does not ask why they bumped the 3 year old thread. That irritates me because I like the continuation of old threads.


yeah, like is the information invalidated because of age?

is the sphere of personal liability for information capped off when an expiry is approaching?

whose expiry, what gave cause for such expiry?

of course, I like the word expiry, why do you ask...


----------



## LaserSVT

cajunner said:


> yeah, like is the information invalidated because of age?
> 
> is the sphere of personal liability for information capped off when an expiry is approaching?
> 
> whose expiry, what gave cause for such expiry?
> 
> of course, I like the word expiry, why do you ask...


This is why you cant afford expensive speakers. You spend it on expensive words.


----------



## Alrojoca

Subbed finally

It seems like I can't be on the the right side for an optimal scenario. With the 4, I wanted a 4 nominal with the current power, now with the 5, I will not have enough power at 4 ohms. (500 @4, or 800 @2) Maybe I will have to get a bigger amp


----------



## sundownz

bertholomey said:


> Well, I had what I would term a privilege to see the modular mkV the other day. It was a beautiful piece of art. Not trying to be funny when I say, if I were going to buy a mkV with the modular basket, I would buy 2.....one to mount in the car, and one to display in the Living Room.
> 
> The cone and surround is stunning, but the floating arms and the motor are amazing to see. Nick hooked it up to the home amp and made it wiggle, wiggle, wiggle ?
> 
> Awesome to see the parts and pieces..... Much better to see it in action - doing what it was designed to do. Amazing job Nick!


Yes indeed -- it's a piece of subwoofer art


----------



## nineball76

Nick I have a question! Is it possible to see a comparable rendering of the mkv and mkiv side by side? I'm trying to see how the shape of the motors and baskets differ. If it's going to be possible to try to squeeze a third mkv into a spot where 3 mkivs have fit. (BradKnobs ram build if you want to see what I mean) where the wall of the enclosure slopes downward, the mkiv barely clears but the mkv seems to have more curve to it all it may clear it easier.


----------



## Electrodynamic

nineball76 said:


> Nick I have a question! Is it possible to see a comparable rendering of the mkv and mkiv side by side? I'm trying to see how the shape of the motors and baskets differ. If it's going to be possible to try to squeeze a third mkv into a spot where 3 mkivs have fit. (BradKnobs ram build if you want to see what I mean) where the wall of the enclosure slopes downward, the mkiv barely clears but the mkv seems to have more curve to it all it may clear it easier.


Without a full rendering of the cast basket being available the rendering of the modular CNC basket prototype basket mkV next to a mkIV would not be of any help. The physical OD of the mkV motor is the same as the mkIV but the heights of the motors are slightly different and the overall mounting depth is different between the two models. The cutout and flange OD is going to be as close as possible (if not exact) on the mkV as the mkIV.


----------



## Gomer Pilot

Excellent news about the outside diameter. Thanks again, Nick, for keeping us so informed.


----------



## nineball76

This is what I'd be working with....


















Images courtesy of BradKnob build log


----------



## Electrodynamic

nineball76 said:


> This is what I'd be working with....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Images courtesy of BradKnob build log


Gotcha. The mkV's basket is going to come down at an angle more than the fairly straight sides of the mkIV so you should be set. The mkV's cast basket is going to have very similar shaped arms to the modular basket prototype.


----------



## nineball76

Electrodynamic said:


> Gotcha. The mkV's basket is going to come down at an angle more than the fairly straight sides of the mkIV so you should be set. The mkV's cast basket is going to have very similar shaped arms to the modular basket prototype.



Awesome, sign me up for 3!


----------



## Electrodynamic

Another look at the revised spider landing / motor support that will be CNC machined for the modular CNC basket:










I feel I need to specify again that the above image is not an image of the entire basket - the image is only of the spider landing / motor carrier for the mkV platform. 

Here is an image of the spider landing / motor support used to build the first mkIV prototype:










The new piece has a larger spider landing OD (no change to ID of the landing), stronger midway support section, a solid ring around the flush mounting bolts for the motor along with a new five bolt pattern [compared to the smaller radius four bolt pattern previously], with a much larger bolt pattern overall to eliminate the spider hitting the bolts during maximum rearward travel, and the terminal block area has been lowered by 10mm to eliminate the terminal studs from hitting the carrier under maximum excursion. 

I should be receiving two of the revised pieces shown above (first picture) by the end of next week at which point I will begin building one new BM mkV prototype using the new motor, carrier, dome, and surround, which should be enough to solidify the numbers so I can have a meeting with my CAD guy about the one-piece cast aluminum basket drawing. After the latter, pre-ordering will be closer than ever to opening.  Once the T/S's are confirmed (hopefully from this next prototype) I will open up pre-ordering once the one-piece basket drawing has been completed and tooling has begun on the basket because that that point the basket is the only item left to tool.


----------



## deeppinkdiver

Looks good Nick. More supportive and rigid, nice improvements.


----------



## vwjmkv

would love to own 1 or 2 of these when done. 

looking forward to the end product!


----------



## FishingBen

Dang... I haven't even mounted my mkIV's yet... LOL


----------



## Cochese

I'm basically building a system in anticipation of this release LOL. Just picked up a new mono amp to drive it (Alpine PDX-M12)


----------



## Kriszilla

Cochese said:


> I'm basically building a system in anticipation of this release LOL. Just picked up a new mono amp to drive it (Alpine PDX-M12)


Great minds. I picked up an M12 as well so that I can run 3 of the MKIV's at 400 RMS each. I can't wait to upgrade them to MKV's.


----------



## Electrodynamic

I just received an email regarding the new CNC machined spider landing / motor carrier and the two sample pieces are being shipped out early next week. The next step after the new CNC piece arrives is to build up another prototype.


----------



## FishingBen

My build sheet keeps changing before I can even get it finalized. Lol


----------



## mbachman9

Electrodynamic said:


> Dual 2 Ohm. Power handling will be rated at 750 watts RMS.


Are the specs finalized? Since the BMK IV is a dual 4 ohm, didn't know if there was a chance this would go back to the same design. I'm about to purchase an amp, but dual 2 ohm vs dual 4 ohm will result in different amps. Thanks!


----------



## Electrodynamic

mbachman9 said:


> Are the specs finalized? Since the BMK IV is a dual 4 ohm, didn't know if there was a chance this would go back to the same design. I'm about to purchase an amp, but dual 2 ohm vs dual 4 ohm will result in different amps. Thanks!


No change in the impedance. The mkV will be a dual 2 Ohm driver.


----------



## Coppertone

^^^. Great to hear as I'm gathering my gear for my new build, which includes (2) of these...


----------



## Electrodynamic

Coppertone said:


> ^^^. Great to hear as I'm gathering my gear for my new build, which includes (2) of these...


FWIW the power rating I have given the mkV at this point is the thermal limit of the coil. The suspension may be modified during the testing phases but even if I use a slightly less compliant (harder) suspension for production the power handling rating will not increase. Over years of seeing what customers power their subwoofers with the power handling rating will not be increased even if the suspension could handle an increase. Yes it is a 3.03"/77.0mm ID former coil but the WW (height of the windings) is fairly short being an XBL^2 motor.


----------



## Cochese

I can't recall seeing SI doing custom subs, so I'm guessing there won't be any options for the mkV. Would it be possible to acquire a custom recone for one of these, or for a mkIV?


----------



## FishingBen

After talking to Nick on the phone today I'm reminded of why I like so very much to do business within my own country with true craftsman with deliberately helpful customer service. What a class act! The new mkV is gonna be The Jam! I'm going to get me a set of these!


----------



## Electrodynamic

Cochese said:


> *I can't recall seeing SI doing custom subs*, so I'm guessing there won't be any options for the mkV. *Would it be possible to acquire a custom recone for one of these, or for a mkIV?*


You may be missing that I build all of the HST sizes and HS-24 by hand with two different coil options. 

Drop-in's are not available for any of the BM series. They are extremely difficult to rebuild and must be rebuilt by a seasoned professional in the industry. I would only allow one other person to rebuild the BM series other than one person here at the shop besides myself and that is David Moore but the parts and the driver would have to be sent to him for him to rebuild it. But again, drop-in's are not shipped out for different impedance options for the BM series. Also the change in impedance will impact the performance significantly due to the smaller coil OD for higher impedance so yes the impedance will be changed but the box requirement will go up substantially and power handling will be reduced substantially.


----------



## LaserSVT

Electrodynamic said:


> No change in the impedance. The mkV will be a dual 2 Ohm driver.


I must have missed or forgotten about that. I didnt realize they were going to be 2 ohm coils. Sweet! That will allow me to get all 1850 watts out of my Zero3.


----------



## bbfoto

LaserSVT said:


> I must have missed or forgotten about that. I didnt realize they were going to be 2 ohm coils. Sweet! That will allow me to get all 1850 watts out of my Zero3.


...wait for it...











...It'll.only take a second longer....







...POOOOF! ...and she's gone, up in smoke.


----------



## LaserSVT

Dynamic head room yo!


----------



## nineball76

bbfoto said:


> ...wait for it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...It'll.only take a second longer....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...POOOOF! ...and she's gone, up in smoke.



Thought we already discussed this previously. I don't see how a 750 rated sub can blow on a few hundred more. 

Like I mentioned 2k going into a pair. That doesn't mean that 2k will always be going to them. That means at full tilt, the pair would see 2k for short period bursts. Musical transients. If the sub blows on that, then a don't see 750 as a rms but as a peak rating. And maybe it needs a continuous trading of closer to 300


----------



## LaserSVT

He rates the BM MKIV at 450 rms and thats about perfect from my many hours of abuse. They handle 9/10ths of what the amp can throw at them but nothing more. They will play perfectly to that point and if you ask a little more they will "slap" and remind you to turn the damn volume down you hooligan!
I am sure the 750 is right on the money.


----------



## Electrodynamic

nineball76 said:


> Thought we already discussed this previously. I don't see how a 750 rated sub can blow on a few hundred more.
> 
> *Like I mentioned 2k going into a pair.* That doesn't mean that 2k will always be going to them. That means at full tilt, the pair would see 2k for short period bursts. Musical transients. *If the sub blows on that, then a don't see 750 as a rms but as a peak rating.* And maybe it needs a continuous trading of closer to 300


Your thinking, or belief, is opposite of how loudspeakers are rated. A loudspeaker is not rated at 100 watts RMS because the loudspeaker can not handle 300 watts RMS. Now if a manufacturer wants to dive into CEA-CEB19 ratings or power compression and voice coil temperatures from Klippel results is is up to them, which is what I do. The driver will be rated at 500 to 750 watts RMS depending on tests performed at our shop along with the latter test results (mainly Klippel). The mkV has a larger voice coil, stiffer suspension, and better voice coil cooling so power handling rating is going to be increased compared to the mkIV.


----------



## Electrodynamic

New CNC machined spider landing and motor carrier arrived today. I'll start building up the prototype early this coming week. Here are pictures:










Sorry for the blurry pic:









A few close-up pictures:


----------



## seafish

Yet another thing of impending beauty that you are building…kudos!!


----------



## Kriszilla




----------



## Electrodynamic

Kriszilla said:


>


LOL! 

Just wait until I get it assembled.


----------



## subwoofery

Electrodynamic said:


> Your thinking, or belief, is opposite of how loudspeakers are rated. A loudspeaker is not rated at 100 watts RMS because the loudspeaker can not handle 300 watts RMS. Now if a manufacturer wants to dive into CEA-CEB19 ratings or power compression and voice coil temperatures from Klippel results is is up to them, which is what I do. The driver will be rated at 500 to 750 watts RMS depending on tests performed at our shop along with the latter test results (mainly Klippel). The mkV has a larger voice coil, stiffer suspension, and better voice coil cooling so power handling rating is going to be increased compared to the mkIV.


My thinking, exactly... 

Kelvin


----------



## nineball76

Electrodynamic said:


> Your thinking, or belief, is opposite of how loudspeakers are rated. A loudspeaker is not rated at 100 watts RMS because the loudspeaker can not handle 300 watts RMS. Now if a manufacturer wants to dive into CEA-CEB19 ratings or power compression and voice coil temperatures from Klippel results is is up to them, which is what I do. The driver will be rated at 500 to 750 watts RMS depending on tests performed at our shop along with the latter test results (mainly Klippel). The mkV has a larger voice coil, stiffer suspension, and better voice coil cooling so power handling rating is going to be increased compared to the mkIV.



I understand. And I accept that your rating is on point. My argument is that a 750 rms driver can take very short bursts of slightly more. Just because I set my amp to do 2k at full, and I'm not listening to anything with sustained low frequency, we're talking maybe a 1k kick drum at full volume, which is never. I'll set everything to reach its max at max volume and only play to 70 or 80% .


----------



## cajunner

I think of these as sound quality subs. I guess if you need more output the choices are endless, you can literally throw a dart and hit on dozens of subs designed to take kilowatts, I am surprised that these will get such a high rating, look at the general wimpy of the coil, that's not that much copper to dissipate so much heat.

People thinking they are going to treat these the same way as those SPL-centric woofa's, burp monsters, and plant 2X RMS into their svelte frames and expect a long-lasting relationship, will likely find themselves a heartbroken bee-atch, going into unsatisfactory phone/email/text conversations with dented cones and burned copper bits telling a story that needs no explanations.

I would remind myself of the design goals, a musical shallow/compact enclosure sub with the best FR for sonic bliss, and forget the bass party with poolside PA aspirations, just by leaving the doors open on the hoopty.


----------



## nineball76

cajunner said:


> I think of these as sound quality subs. I guess if you need more output the choices are endless, you can literally throw a dart and hit on dozens of subs designed to take kilowatts, I am surprised that these will get such a high rating, look at the general wimpy of the coil, that's not that much copper to dissipate so much heat.
> 
> People thinking they are going to treat these the same way as those SPL-centric woofa's, burp monsters, and plant 2X RMS into their svelte frames and expect a long-lasting relationship, will likely find themselves a heartbroken bee-atch, going into unsatisfactory phone/email/text conversations with dented cones and burned copper bits telling a story that needs no explanations.
> 
> I would remind myself of the design goals, a musical shallow/compact enclosure sub with the best FR for sonic bliss, and forget the bass party with poolside PA aspirations, just by leaving the doors open on the hoopty.



Let me clarify with examples of non spl subs and their ratings. Arc black. Rated 500 rms 1k music. Morel ultimo 1000 rms 3000 10ms transient. 

Spl and sq are not designated by their wattage classes. I've seen sq cars using thousands of watts on front stage, and spl cars using 500 watts into their subs. 

When I see rms, I see "continuous" rating. Maybe Im wrong in that but it's what I've known for as long as I can remember. By 2k I mean into a pair, but that's not an average continuous power supply on the type of music I listen to. Haven't blown a sub since '93, guess I'm doing it all wrong. I know what I mean, but I'm just a GED holding high school drop out that doesn't know big words.


----------



## cajunner

nineball76 said:


> Let me clarify with examples of non spl subs and their ratings. Arc black. Rated 500 rms 1k music. Morel ultimo 1000 rms 3000 10ms transient.
> 
> Spl and sq are not designated by their wattage classes. I've seen sq cars using thousands of watts on front stage, and spl cars using 500 watts into their subs.
> 
> When I see rms, I see "continuous" rating. Maybe Im wrong in that but it's what I've known for as long as I can remember. By 2k I mean into a pair, but that's not an average continuous power supply on the type of music I listen to. Haven't blown a sub since '93, guess I'm doing it all wrong. I know what I mean, but I'm just a GED holding high school drop out that doesn't know big words.


RMS means clean, to me.

If an amp is rated for 2KW in RMS calculations, meaning 20-20Khz plus/minus 3 db, @.3% THD or less, it's probably capable of making nearly 4KW of dynamic square wave, 80% THD @ 1Khz.

I like to err on the side of caution, in that I'd assume someone who sets gains with a DMM and calculates the voltage and all, leaving little room for even slight clipping like on 10% or so will not have any trouble with using amps that are only 25% over the RMS rating of the sub.

Which, 1500 watts of coil and 2KW of amp, is just 25% more, right?

that math don't seem perfect but it's close enough.

The thing I'm trying to say is some people out there might get the impression, if Nick says "you should be good, given your install skills" then everybody wants to make these subs 1KW RMS, you know what I mean?

And XBL subs, because they have so much less copper built into their design, the area/mass ratio comes into play where something like the Ultimo, with it's 5.1" diameter coil may not play the same way.

And so far, since no tests have yet happened, these subs may not be able to absorb high power in peaks, like most of the subs on the market today that are rated that way, the margin may be a bit more narrow.

The Ultimo can do 3KW in peaks, 1KW in RMS. That's similar to the way Pioneer rates their subs, or JBL wGti, high RMS but huge MAX numbers. Possibly because their subs can take it, possibly a numbers game for marketing purposes to compete in a competitive marketplace.


It makes sense to give an RMS rating, but not fall into the unsafe marketing of Peak/MAX figures and Nick may choose to scale RMS up or down, based on testing.

It's funny that we're caught in a no-man's land of what if, since the subs haven't even been prototyped yet in their final configuration.

for system design purposes, I'd probably want to keep headroom in the picture but judging how often I've heard that the BM3 and BM4 were caught "slapping" I would suspect that there's not a huge bunch of room for mechanical Xmax, after reaching the linear Xmax in these shallow frame designs. Since the rating so far is only for the thermal on the coil, and preliminary, this whole post is actually just a big old guess anyways.

which means none of the big words count for anything, so there.


----------



## Electrodynamic

nineball76 said:


> I understand. And I accept that your rating is on point. My argument is that a 750 rms driver can take very short bursts of slightly more. Just because I set my amp to do 2k at full, and I'm not listening to anything with sustained low frequency, we're talking maybe a 1k kick drum at full volume, which is never. I'll set everything to reach its max at max volume and only play to 70 or 80% .


You are one of the few that honestly do that. I use the same example for amplifiers and engines - just because you have 500hp available doesn't you MUST use all of it all the time.


----------



## Electrodynamic

cajunner said:


> I think of these as sound quality subs. I guess if you need more output the choices are endless, you can literally throw a dart and hit on dozens of subs designed to take kilowatts, I am surprised that these will get such a high rating, look at the [small WW] coil, that's not that much copper to dissipate so much heat.
> 
> People thinking they are going to treat these the same way as those SPL-centric woofa's, burp monsters, and plant 2X RMS into their svelte frames and expect a long-lasting relationship, will likely find themselves a heartbroken bee-atch, going into unsatisfactory phone/email/text conversations with dented cones and burned copper bits telling a story that needs no explanations.
> 
> I would remind myself of the design goals, a musical shallow/compact enclosure sub with the best FR for sonic bliss, and forget the bass party with poolside PA aspirations, just by leaving the doors open on the hoopty.


I completely agree with your post. These drivers are *not* for those whose main goal is making your rear view mirror vibrate uncontrollably and must hit 145 dB during every ride even if that same person gets online and says they are about "sound quality". I was able to get a single BM mkIV to 130 dB in its 0.5 ft^3 sealed box regularly when I had it installed in my CRX. Note that accomplishing that score on a TermLab involved tossing the warranty out the window from too much power and I only did that a few times.


----------



## Electrodynamic

I built the prototype today and everything measured great. Here are pictures from the build this afternoon followed by a list of preliminary T/S's. I say 'preliminary' because after Patrick tests it for Klippel it will be thoroughly broken in and the Qt will be lower, Vas a little larger, Fs a little lower, etc. 

Here are pictures:

New spider landing/motor carrier on the left compared to the previous spider landing/motor carrier on the right:









Modular basket assembled onto the new motor:









Side shot without moving parts:









Side shot with most of the moving parts [minus the dome]:









Completed shots:


















I used 4 AWG terminals for this prototype but I will not be using terminals this big on production. There will be 10 AWG terminals on the production drivers that look much better than these monsters:










T/S Parameters:

Re: 3.6 Ohms
Fs: 25.6 Hz
Qes: .44
Qms: 3.42
Qts: 0.39
Le: 1.8 mH
Sd: 82.51 in^2 (53235.9 mm^2)
Vas: 44.5 L
BL: 21.2
Mms: 348.1 g
Cms: 110 uM/N
SPL (1W/1M): 84.0 dB
SPL (2.83 V/1M): 87.4 dB

Preliminary recommended enclosures are:
Sealed: 0.5 to 0.7 ft^3
Ported: 1.4 ft^3 tuned to 25 Hz


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

great job


----------



## nineball76

Absolutely gorgeous. If ever a sub was worthy of being in a plexi enclosure, it's this one.


----------



## Guest

Sir, that's a work of art !


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

Electrodynamic said:


> I built...


Will this subwoofer be able to perform in an infinite baffle install?


----------



## Electrodynamic

Huckleberry Sound said:


> Will this subwoofer be able to perform in an infinite baffle install?


Yes. I do not recommend it for IB (Qt is too low for IB in my oppinion) but you can use it in IB if you need to.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

Electrodynamic said:


> Yes.


Thank you! I will be awaiting the final price for this. Great job. Take your time! It is coming along well!


----------



## nineball76

Since its in your hands, could you get a cutout and outside diameter measurement?


----------



## DavidRam

Electrodynamic said:


> I built the prototype today and everything measured great. Here are pictures from the build this afternoon followed by a list of preliminary T/S's. I say 'preliminary' because after Patrick tests it for Klippel it will be thoroughly broken in and the Qt will be lower, Vas a little larger, Fs a little lower, etc.
> 
> Here are pictures:
> 
> New spider landing/motor carrier on the left compared to the previous spider landing/motor carrier on the right:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Modular basket assembled onto the new motor:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Side shot without moving parts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Side shot with most of the moving parts [minus the dome]:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Completed shots:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used 4 AWG terminals for this prototype but I will not be using terminals this big on production. There will be 10 AWG terminals on the production drivers that look much better than these monsters:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T/S Parameters:
> 
> Re: 3.6 Ohms
> Fs: 25.6 Hz
> Qes: .44
> Qms: 3.42
> Qts: 0.39
> Le: 1.8 mH
> Sd: 82.51 in^2 (53235.9 mm^2)
> Vas: 44.5 L
> BL: 21.2
> Mms: 348.1 g
> Cms: 110 uM/N
> SPL (1W/1M): 84.0 dB
> SPL (2.83 V/1M): 87.4 dB
> 
> Preliminary recommended enclosures are:
> Sealed: 0.5 to 0.7 ft^3
> Ported: 1.4 ft^3 tuned to 25 Hz


Damn, that thing is beautiful!


----------



## Electrodynamic

nineball76 said:


> Since its in your hands, could you get a cutout and outside diameter measurement?


This particular modular frame prototype needs not only a regular cutout but also five notches made into the cutout to allow the five basket arms to clear. I will have an exact cutout once the one piece cast frame is drawn and tooled.


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## redit

Electrodynamic said:


>


So how often do you get asked to produce a custom, one-off, all-machined woofer? And how much would a few of those rigs run a guy? Four figures or five? There's gotta be a market, no?


----------



## Electrodynamic

redit said:


> So how often do you get asked to produce a custom, one-off, all-machined woofer? And how much would a few of those rigs run a guy? Four figures or five? There's gotta be a market, no?


Answer to your first question is every now and again but I never hear back from them once I tell them the price. 

Answer to your second question is five figures. Each of these CNC machined aluminum baskets costs me $1,000 plus shipping (about $20 to get the parts to my shop). It is very early to give a dead-nuts figure on this exact basket because I am still looking around at other ways to get this basket done in anodized colors, etc. I'll definitely keep the forum updated. But rest assured that if the CNC machined basket is an option in the drop-down menu for BM mkV ordering you are looking at adding a considerable amount to the total cost of, and lead time for, the driver. ...unless a "group buy" (no discount, just a total amount of customers) is initiated for the CNC basket versions - I could have all of the baskets machined at once which may lower the cost a tiny amount.


----------



## bertholomey

Fantastic job Nick! More beautiful even than what I had envisioned!


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## LaserSVT

Argh, cant wait to try these things out! Ready to send the money whenever you are.


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## cajunner

nice photography!

I wonder if it's all the same, one could chamfer (round off) the openings of the motor carrier to carry forward the 5 arms theme of a rounded aesthetic that could match the radius on the motor outside edge, giving it a congruence, or engineered for acoustic transparency for the geek speak, ad copy...

for the production version, since it will be cast as one piece and the work of chamfering would be built-in.

I like the billet look with the way it is now, but could see it using more rounded edges as a refinement.

Unless it would take away too much material, then I'd leave it as is. Also the backplate...

it's a bit plain with just those vent holes and no angle at all, maybe have the back plate show a small grade from the center, even if it costs a mm extra in steel and mounting depth...

just my thinking aloud musings, please don't take offense since I don't mean any harm by it.


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## Inferno333

Looking good Nick!


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## Treesive

Electrodynamic said:


> I built the prototype today and everything measured great. Here are pictures from the build this afternoon followed by a list of preliminary T/S's. I say 'preliminary' because after Patrick tests it for Klippel it will be thoroughly broken in and the Qt will be lower, Vas a little larger, Fs a little lower, etc.
> 
> T/S Parameters:
> 
> Re: 3.6 Ohms
> Fs: 25.6 Hz
> Qes: .44
> Qms: 3.42
> Qts: 0.39
> Le: 1.8 mH
> Sd: 82.51 in^2 (53235.9 mm^2)
> Vas: 44.5 L
> BL: 21.2
> Mms: 348.1 g
> Cms: 110 uM/N
> SPL (1W/1M): 84.0 dB
> SPL (2.83 V/1M): 87.4 dB
> 
> Preliminary recommended enclosures are:
> Sealed: 0.5 to 0.7 ft^3
> Ported: 1.4 ft^3 tuned to 25 Hz


I'm a little surprised that the Qts is that low. Was figuring something in the high .4's as the lowest.


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## WhereAmEye?

Electrodynamic said:


> This particular modular frame prototype needs not only a regular cutout but also five notches made into the cutout to allow the five basket arms to clear. I will have an exact cutout once the one piece cast frame is drawn and tooled.


Could you possibly make this cutout a thin piece of plastic trim so that one could use a flush trim router bit? That would make installation a breeze, for those with a router table anyway.


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## jcande2

Is there an ETA when we can buy the MKv's?


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## edouble101

Electrodynamic said:


> Answer to your first question is every now and again but I never hear back from them once I tell them the price.
> 
> Answer to your second question is five figures. Each of these CNC machined aluminum baskets costs me $1,000 plus shipping (about $20 to get the parts to my shop). It is very early to give a dead-nuts figure on this exact basket because I am still looking around at other ways to get this basket done in anodized colors, etc. I'll definitely keep the forum updated. But rest assured that if the CNC machined basket is an option in the drop-down menu for BM mkV ordering you are looking at adding a considerable amount to the total cost of, and lead time for, the driver. ...unless a "group buy" (no discount, just a total amount of customers) is initiated for the CNC basket versions - I could have all of the baskets machined at once which may lower the cost a tiny amount.


Based on the popularity of the CNC basket in this thread there will be a few knuckleheads like myself that would throw down the coin for it!


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## sundownz

Electrodynamic said:


> T/S Parameters:
> 
> Re: 3.6 Ohms
> Fs: 25.6 Hz
> Qes: .44
> Qms: 3.42
> Qts: 0.39
> Le: 1.8 mH
> Sd: 82.51 in^2 (53235.9 mm^2)
> Vas: 44.5 L
> BL: 21.2
> Mms: 348.1 g
> Cms: 110 uM/N
> SPL (1W/1M): 84.0 dB
> SPL (2.83 V/1M): 87.4 dB
> 
> Preliminary recommended enclosures are:
> Sealed: 0.5 to 0.7 ft^3
> Ported: 1.4 ft^3 tuned to 25 Hz


Turned out awesome, Nick! I'm sad I missed the build process =)


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## vwjmkv

Electrodynamic said:


> Excursion video of the prototype in action:


kind of got a stiffy from that vid... lol

can't wait for these to be finished. i'll gladly replace my JLs for 2 of these.

will i have to get a new sub amp to run 2 of these?
i have a JL 750/1HD


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## bbfoto

Nick, that latest iteration looks amazing. How much would a light "sandblasted" type of finish add to the cost of the cast basket...just a raw finish without paint? ...something similar to the texture of 400-to-600 grit sandpaper in the natural metal's dull silver-gray.


And gents, I thought that the "tongue smiley" at the end of my "POOOOF!" comment would indicate that I was being sarcastic and that I was just prodding fun at _LaserSVT_'s 1,850 watt amp power comment, LOL. I didn't intend to open the "RMS/Transient Peak" can o' worms for the bazillionth time. :-/ It's all good though because it resulted in more accurate information being brought to light, and reiterated, and I feel that any noobs reading these threads will benefit from this information coming straight from a respected speaker designer & builder.

Carry on with the awesome work, Nick. The voice coil configuration won't work for any of my current installs, but I'm sure that they will prove useful to a few of my friends that that are looking to have a system installed.


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## redit

Electrodynamic said:


> Answer to your first question is every now and again but I never hear back from them once I tell them the price.
> 
> Answer to your second question is five figures. Each of these CNC machined aluminum baskets costs me $1,000 plus shipping (about $20 to get the parts to my shop). It is very early to give a dead-nuts figure on this exact basket because I am still looking around at other ways to get this basket done in anodized colors, etc. I'll definitely keep the forum updated. But rest assured that if the CNC machined basket is an option in the drop-down menu for BM mkV ordering you are looking at adding a considerable amount to the total cost of, and lead time for, the driver. ...unless a "group buy" (no discount, just a total amount of customers) is initiated for the CNC basket versions - I could have all of the baskets machined at once which may lower the cost a tiny amount.


If I had the means you would hear back from me. Even with that basket buried in a box, I'd be happy just knowing it was there.


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## bertholomey

No need for the little white sticker on the cone to see the amount of travel 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Electrodynamic

Treesive said:


> I'm a little surprised that the Qts is that low. Was figuring something in the high .4's as the lowest.


If I used a less compliant [harder] suspension the Qt would go up. Remember that Qt and Vas are inversely proportional when changes to the suspension, basically keeping the enclosure volume the same but changing the response due to Q. This suspension is on-point. I do not want it any harder or any softer. 

And yes the Qts is low because the motor is so strong.


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## Electrodynamic

WhereAmEye? said:


> Could you possibly make this cutout a thin piece of plastic trim so that one could use a flush trim router bit? That would make installation a breeze, for those with a router table anyway.


When a modular CNC basket version is purchased it will come with a cutout template.


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## Electrodynamic

bbfoto said:


> Nick, that latest iteration looks amazing. How much would a light "sandblasted" type of finish add to the cost of the cast basket...just a raw finish without paint? ...something similar to the texture of 400-to-600 grit sandpaper in the natural metal's dull silver-gray.
> 
> 
> And gents, I thought that the "tongue smiley" at the end of my "POOOOF!" comment would indicate that I was being sarcastic and that I was just prodding fun at _LaserSVT_'s 1,850 watt amp power comment, LOL. I didn't intend to open the "RMS/Transient Peak" can o' worms for the bazillionth time. :-/ It's all good though because it resulted in more accurate information being brought to light, and reiterated, and I feel that any noobs reading these threads will benefit from this information coming straight from a respected speaker designer & builder.
> 
> Carry on with the awesome work, Nick. The voice coil configuration won't work for any of my current installs, but I'm sure that they will prove useful to a few of my friends that that are looking to have a system installed.


When the one-piece cast basket is finished it will only be one color/finish. I could get extra baskets but they will be finished the same way the production baskets will be. I would have to tear down a perfectly good driver and have the basket finished as you desired and then build up a new [your] driver. So you're looking at about 2.5 or 3x the cost of a production unit.


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## bbfoto

Electrodynamic said:


> When the one-piece cast basket is finished it will only be one color/finish. I could get extra baskets but they will be finished the same way the production baskets will be. I would have to tear down a perfectly good driver and have the basket finished as you desired and then build up a new [your] driver. So you're looking at about 2.5 or 3x the cost of a production unit.


No worries. Just thought I'd ask.  Thanks. In retrospect, it doesn't really make sense to "pretty up" this type of driver to show off its @ss end in an install, with the primary design goal being the ability to tuck it away in a small, tight, hidden, stealthy location. It's quite a looker though.


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## sirbOOm

Electrodynamic said:


> Answer to your first question is every now and again but I never hear back from them once I tell them the price.
> 
> Answer to your second question is five figures. Each of these CNC machined aluminum baskets costs me $1,000 plus shipping (about $20 to get the parts to my shop). It is very early to give a dead-nuts figure on this exact basket because I am still looking around at other ways to get this basket done in anodized colors, etc. I'll definitely keep the forum updated. But rest assured that if the CNC machined basket is an option in the drop-down menu for BM mkV ordering you are looking at adding a considerable amount to the total cost of, and lead time for, the driver. ...unless a "group buy" (no discount, just a total amount of customers) is initiated for the CNC basket versions - I could have all of the baskets machined at once which may lower the cost a tiny amount.


If you want to try Powdercoating: thepowderpro.com. I used him for all of my Harley stuff and it was like an impenetrable shield of color.


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## cajunner

bbfoto said:


> No worries. Just thought I'd ask.  Thanks. In retrospect, it doesn't really make sense to "pretty up" this type of driver to show off its @ss end in an install, with the primary design goal being the ability to tuck it away in a small, tight, hidden, stealthy location. It's quite a looker though.


I have different thoughts on this, I would like to see the "floating motor" in a Plexy window, it would work really well in a downfire console or under rear truck seat application, imho.

The design seems to be genuinely novel, and all that reflective chrome on the motor with the satin finished aluminum arms, begs for a few LED's to light it up.


If the finished product is using nickel-plate on the neodymium slug, and the steel is chrome-plated, it'll be quite shiny.

I wonder how it would look if the neodymium/nickel plate was the only shiny metal, sort of a floating disc between two layers of steel finished with either black thermal emission coating, or a titanium anodized rainbow effect?

Also, the arms could be anodized in colors and the dome cap could match, which would be pretty cool...


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## sirbOOm

I don't give a flying F what the basket and what not of the subwoofer looks like. I do care about what the cone, surround, and flange look like but I'm easy... plain, lean, and functional. One reason I loved the mk IV was because it was a flat all black everything on what you saw up front. No damn 3D block text logos, no dumb colors, nothing. The backside was beautiful, and I made that comment in a post somewhere, but it was functional and that is what I care about. I want a sub that sounds amazing, I personally invest no value in a sub that has a basket and so forth that looks amazing (specifically just for the sake of looks... not function). If that look is actually just what superb functionality for a true purpose looks like, fine. But this guy (me) still isn't going to plexi glass a damn thing in his car, hahahaha. To each their own, I'm not trying to bash a single person, but just being part of the convo. It's a beautiful sub, but I care 100% about how it sounds and I know it'll sound bonerific. And if fancy looks make it cost too much... it loses value to a guy like me.


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## bbfoto

sirbOOm said:


> I don't give a flying F what the basket and what not of the subwoofer looks like. I do care about what the cone, surround, and flange look like but I'm easy... plain, lean, and functional. One reason I loved the mk IV was because it was a flat all black everything on what you saw up front. No damn 3D block text logos, no dumb colors, nothing. The backside was beautiful, and I made that comment in a post somewhere, but it was functional and that is what I care about. I want a sub that sounds amazing, I personally invest no value in a sub that has a basket and so forth that looks amazing (specifically just for the sake of looks... not function). If that look is actually just what superb functionality for a true purpose looks like, fine. But this guy (me) still isn't going to plexi glass a damn thing in his car, hahahaha. To each their own, I'm not trying to bash a single person, but just being part of the convo. It's a beautiful sub, but I care 100% about how it sounds and I know it'll sound bonerific. And if fancy looks make it cost too much... it loses value to a guy like me.


Well said. I agree on all points. :thumbsup:


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## ImK'ed

Just to bump up a future legendary product. Any updates nick?
Also quite excited that the mkv will be able to be used ported that will help me get more output from my amp (hd 900/5)


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## Cochese

Still planning to pre-order soon and ship late this year?


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## Electrodynamic

Cochese said:


> Still planning to pre-order soon and ship late this year?


Unfortunately not. I've got a lot more items to tidy up before I can give the go-ahead on any type of production.


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## ImK'ed

Thats ok still enjoying my mkiv.


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## Electrodynamic

Little update about the options I am exploring. The picture explains itself. Carbon fiber honeycomb flat diaphragm and the S surround:


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## etroze

Oh that's epic.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## drop1

3.9 inchs. Whis gonna be the first to cram these into a door?


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## adriancp

That sir, is Bad Ass!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## foreman

I agree, that cone is a great idea. Beautiful.


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## rnr808

very nice


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## lv_v

Oof pure sex


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## Cochese

I'm afraid you're going to have to make that sub a little bit uglier, or I'll be forced to cut up my pristine GTO interior so that it's visible. Get right on that, please.


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## kmbkk

Yep, definitely like the CF diaphragm!


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## piyush7243

Beautiful cone. Looks kickass

Sent from my X9076 using Tapatalk


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## InstantCrush

Looks good. Hopefully it sounds just as good.


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## vwdave

As soon as you are taking pre-orders I'm in. I have money earmarked for one of these. Should sound nice running off a ZPA0.5.


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## LaserSVT

OK, that settles it. When they are ready I still want two for my truck and a third for the Audi. I bet they can make me a box big enough since it already holds a Type R 10"





But with the cars carbon interior and how everything is accented with brushed aluminum this thing is a match made in heaven!











Anyone good at photoshop?


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## ImK'ed

Nick i know cost was mentioned earlier on, has there been a change? What are you aiming to sell at?


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## Tom Westling

Electrodynamic said:


> Little update about the options I am exploring. The picture explains itself. Carbon fiber honeycomb flat diaphragm and the S surround:


I love the look of the carbon fiber honeycomb. Sign me up!


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## Topless Stang

ImK'ed said:


> Nick i know cost was mentioned earlier on, has there been a change? What are you aiming to sell at?


Also interested so I can set the funds aside.


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## vwdave

I might be in the minority's but I'd much prefer an aluminum cone over carbon fiber. CF just seems too tuner/cliche at this point. Heck, I'd even like a plain black anodized aluminum cone. It's about class for me.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I couldn't care less about cf if the performance is better.


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## Bluenote

CF is nice, but prefer the Aluminum too...on this driver.


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## LaserSVT

For me if it performs better go for it! But in my applications, one you never get to see the subs and in the other the CF setup is a perfect match for my car so I want it! LOL


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## Electrodynamic

Final shots of the CF BM mkV:


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## mikechec9

epper:...oh my


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## deeppinkdiver

That is sexy.. Awaiting your email response Nick.


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## Audiophilefred

What a beauty, I'm sure Jacob will keep the Dream alive


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## kmbkk

Audiophilefred said:


> What a beauty, I'm sure Jacob will keep the Dream alive


We can only hope!


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## ThreeMan

Can't wait for this...beautiful work!


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## cajunner

maybe it would have been a good driver, there appears to be the requisite chunk of neodymium in the motor, it looks nearly as large as those used in Lightning Audio Storm X series or TC Sounds' version.

would have been one of those subs where the parts explain the retail, like the way JL broke down the W7 series so many years ago.


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## kmbkk

ThreeMan said:


> Can't wait for this...beautiful work!


Uh, it's not getting produced, at least not by SI. We'll wait to see if Sundown takes it up.


----------



## Kjekz

Could someone fill me in on what i've missed?
Not gettin produced?
Or only referring to the modular version?


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## vwjmkv

Kjekz said:


> Could someone fill me in on what i've missed?
> Not gettin produced?
> Or only referring to the modular version?


This will fill you in.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/218897-big-stereo-integrity-news.html

i hope we can be as informed by Sundown in regards to the build once they take over production and sale of these. i had hoped these would be my first SI products. now we will only see. also, i hope they don't over use their logo on these beautiful drivers! keep them simple guys! please. keep. them. simple!


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## Electrodynamic

I received the fully built carbon fiber diaphragm BM mkV today and tested it out a little bit. I know I said that I might let one of the two prototypes go if someone had very deep pockets but after seeing the driver in person and also seeing the flat diaphragm move almost 2" peak to peak I have decided to keep both prototype units: One driver with the domed aluminum diaphragm and also the carbon fiber unit. I'm going to use the single carbon fiber unit in my car and I'll keep the single aluminum dome unit for my office as a reminder of what I ended up making at the end and also to show to people later on. The prototype carbon fiber diaphragm prototype with the machined aluminum modular basket and neo slug motor is absolutely beautiful and I'm going to keep it. 

I also talked to Jake today about the driver and how it will be produced on his end. I think the driver will end up using the carbon fiber flat diaphragm with the S surround without any logo on the front side. When Jake tools up a basket it will have the Sundown Audio logo on it but from the front it may not carry any company badging at all. We are going to add a pole vent for the production drivers to keep the air noise down as the solid pole prototypes have a lot of air coming out of the gap vents. Nothing you would ever hear when installed in a sealed cabinet but you might hear it if you inverted the driver and had it installed behind your head. A small pole vent will solve that.


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## drop1

Electrodynamic said:


> I received the fully built carbon fiber diaphragm BM mkV today and tested it out a little bit. I know I said that I might let one of the two prototypes go if someone had very deep pockets but after seeing the driver in person and also seeing the flat diaphragm move almost 2" peak to peak I have decided to keep both prototype units: One driver with the domed aluminum diaphragm and also the carbon fiber unit. I'm going to use the single carbon fiber unit in my car and I'll keep the single aluminum dome unit for my office as a reminder of what I ended up making at the end and also to show to people later on. The prototype carbon fiber diaphragm prototype with the machined aluminum modular basket and neo slug motor is absolutely beautiful and I'm going to keep it.
> 
> I also talked to Jake today about the driver and how it will be produced on his end. I think the driver will end up using the carbon fiber flat diaphragm with the S surround without any logo on the front side. When Jake tools up a basket it will have the Sundown Audio logo on it but from the front it may not carry any company badging at all. We are going to add a pole vent for the production drivers to keep the air noise down as the solid pole prototypes have a lot of air coming out of the gap vents. Nothing you would ever hear when installed in a sealed cabinet but you might hear it if you inverted the driver and had it installed behind your head. A small pole vent will solve that.


That thing is so elegant. I wouldn't know what to do with it. Can't figure out if I'd run it seamlessly into the vehicle or give it a lit box with the full custom plexiglass treatment.
Man I could see these in a listening room with a clear paneld hand carved box. Even if it sounds like crap it's still a thing of beauty.


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## Electrodynamic

drop1 said:


> That thing is so elegant. I wouldn't know what to do with it. Can't figure out if I'd run it seamlessly into the vehicle or give it a lit box with the full custom plexiglass treatment.
> Man I could see these in a listening room with a clear paneld hand carved box. *Even if it sounds like crap* it's still a thing of beauty.


It won't "sound like crap." 

Parameters on the CF piston version are:

Qes: 0.604
Qms: 3.9
Qts: .523
Fs: 29 Hz
Vas: 52.3 Liters
Mms: 211.2 g
Cms: 142.6uM/N
Re: 3.6 Ohms
Xmax: 18mm
Xsus: 22.0mm
Pe: 650 watts
SPL: 85.28 dB 1W/1M
SPL: 88.75 dB 2.8V/1M

By comparison a particular forum favorite $999 12" driver has the following parameters:

Qes: 0.510
Qms: 3.10
Qts: .438
Fs: 22.5 Hz
Vas: 88.13 Liters
Mms: 226 g
Cms: 221.4 uM/N
Re: 3.5 Ohms
Xmax: 13.5mm
Xsus: 16.4mm
Pe: 1000 watts
SPL: 84.97 dB 1W/1M
SPL: 88.54 dB 2.8V/1M


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## Electrodynamic

Through product development our FEMM modeling has been within 10% of Klippel measurements. The CNC machined modular basket carbon fiber diaphragm BM mkV has not been Klippel tested yet and I will leave the testing to Jake at Sundown Audio once he takes over the product. But in all fairness we purchased an Illusion Audio C12XL many months ago and had it Klippel tested. Below are the two main screen shots of data:



















If certain members of DIYMA want to latch onto Le variation, like they do/did to other drivers like the TM65, the C12XL is good for about 3.9mm of total one-way stroke. Even at 70% BL variation it is good to 13.5mm. Cms/Kms is about 14mm giving it the benefit of the doubt.


----------

