# what is midbass???



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

all i hear these days is midbass midbass midbass....seems to the be the catch phrase for CA ...getting kind of sick of it to be honest.

what does midbass mean to you?


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

miniSQ said:


> all i hear these days is midbass midbass midbass....seems to the be the catch phrase for CA ...getting kind of sick of it to be honest.
> 
> what does midbass mean to you?


Well from the people who never seem to have enough, I take is a wanting their mids to play down to 45hz so they can barely run their sub at all. Maybe it's just my car, but my EQ work almost invariably brings me to lowering my actual midbass levels as my car has rediculous gain in that area. I've got a wideband parametric cut of 3db's at 160hz and I've never heard anyone say my car lacks midbass, drums and guitars still cut into you at high volumes and I can make my jeans vibrate (note vibrate not flap from 40hz tones).


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

IMO opinion Midbass is more the 70hz to 200hz region, having you midbass units p0llay to 40hz is kinda a waste, you have this big thing in your trunk called a subwoofer to do that region and it's able to do it much more efficiently with a lot less distortion then an overstressed 8" or 6" driver will ever manage.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

^^^I agree. Many people that don't ever seem to have enough midbass are people that are trying to run their 6.5" mid down to 50hz or less for absolutely no reason. Let the sub do it's thing, playing up to around 80hz and let the mids do theirs and you'll probably have enough midbass, or at least a lot more.

It's like people think it makes them extra cool to run their mids way down and barely utilize the sub. It makes zero sense to me. One other thread, something like "What low pass do you use" someone actually said they use a low pass of 32hz on their sub. If that's true, just **** can the sub since it isn't doing anything unless you listen to organ pipe music.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

it depends on what you are trying to accomplish....sometimes 80hz does'nt do the job in terms of recreating the stage because if there is any tactical response that creates noise or draws your attention to the subs, you have ruined your stage. if you are one of those guys that just wants to crank it up and have it sound good, that may work for you. I'm big into staging and imaging....its just my thing......it is'nt for alot of others. I've had my subs at 31hz, and there is more information that comes thru than you may think. Like I try to tell people, try it first, and report your findings. There are alot of internet guru's that "think" it can't or won't work with no real experience. It really comes down to what sounds right to you


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

BigRed said:


> it depends on what you are trying to accomplish....sometimes 80hz does'nt do the job in terms of recreating the stage because if there is any tactical response that creates noise or draws your attention to the subs, you have ruined your stage. if you are one of those guys that just wants to crank it up and have it sound good, that may work for you. I'm big into staging and imaging....its just my thing......it is'nt for alot of others. I've had my subs at 31hz, and there is more information that comes thru than you may think. Like I try to tell people, try it first, and report your findings. There are alot of internet guru's that "think" it can't or won't work with no real experience. It really comes down to what sounds right to you


If you can crank it and have it sound good with your mids bottoming out playing a 30hz tone more power to ya lol. I agree with the tactile response issue. For tuning i usually run the sub as high as I can without it drawing the stage back. Once I find that point I then run my mids and high as I can without noticing any gap in the frequency response. For me that's a good comprimise between staging and tonality.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

I can see the idea of using a low subwoofer crossover point, ONLY if you have woofers up front capable of low bass. Most 5.25/6.5's are not and I see people trying to run them way down, it's a waste of speakers. 8" woofers are a different story, they probably can get pretty low. With that said, I still find low pass crossover points of below 50hz a little weird.

Whenever I finally get serious about the system in my Magnum, I plan on using 8's up front, and that will allow me to run a lower crossover point, but I've never been able to do it with anything up to 6.5".


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

89grand said:


> I can see the idea of using a low subwoofer crossover point, ONLY if you have woofers up front capable of low bass. Most 5.25/6.5's are not and I see people trying to run them way down, it's a waste of speakers. 8" woofers are a different story, they probably can get pretty low. With that said, I still find low pass crossover points of below 50hz a little weird.
> 
> Whenever I finally get serious about the system in my Magnum, I plan on using 8's up front, and that will allow me to run a lower crossover point, but I've never been able to do it with anything up to 6.5".


For me I use 8's to get the crossover points that most people try to use on their 6.5's. My last setup using 8's were crossed at 60hz IIRC, maybe 53, it's been a bit. 6.5's invariably end up at 70-80, the xs69's I'm using right now I still ususually keep at 70 or 80.


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

people cross midbasses lower to help pull the image towards the front. my guess is that midbass fiends listen to a lot of metal, etc where a strong midbass really makes the drums come alive.


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## kamguy (Nov 15, 2009)

It does seem like it's a new idea. Old timer SQ guys including myself and alot of other guys around here have been trying to achieve this for 20 years. We used to talk more about getting the bass up front. Trial and error along with better/more drivers led to more of a 4 way system kinda thing. 
We all have been trying to get people to fade it forward since the begining and many still think no rears or rear fill is a radical new idea. 

Whats old is new again!
BK


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

T3mpest said:


> For me I use 8's to get the crossover points that most people try to use on their 6.5's. My last setup using 8's were crossed at 60hz IIRC, maybe 53, it's been a bit. 6.5's invariably end up at 70-80, the xs69's I'm using right now I still ususually keep at 70 or 80.


Yeah, in fact I'm going to use 8"s and would happy running them down to a solid 60hz.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Thumper26 said:


> people cross midbasses lower to help pull the image towards the front. my guess is that midbass fiends listen to a lot of metal, etc where a strong midbass really makes the drums come alive.


I think people try to use real low crossover points to try and bring, not the image, but the bass up front. I've used 80hz crossover points and had the illusion of subs up front. It can be done.


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

kamguy said:


> It does seem like it's a new idea. Old timer SQ guys including myself and alot of other guys around here have been trying to achieve this for 20 years. We used to talk more about getting the bass up front. Trial and error along with better/more drivers led to more of a 4 way system kinda thing.
> We all have been trying to get people to fade it forward since the begining and many still think no rears or rear fill is a radical new idea.
> 
> Whats old is new again!
> BK


I run a 4 way front stage a passive set of DLS UR36S's and then a pair of Morel HCW8" midbasses with no highpass but they drop off very steeply below about 70hz so no need for a high pass and play up to 200hz on a 24db slope, For what I use them for they are great wih fantastic dynamics and realism to things like bass quitars and drums. Now I just need to put my sub back in as I have very little information below about 60hz coming through.


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

89grand said:


> I think people try to use real low crossover points to try and bring, not the image, but the bass up front. I've used 80hz crossover points and had the illusion of subs up front. It can be done.


with one comes the other. the less i have to screw with from a phase/ta perspective, the better. that's also part of paying for a quality mid. if it can play it, put it in the right enclosure and let it play it.


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## MazdaFan (Aug 13, 2008)

I run my Midbass drivers 63-200hz, and the sub from 63 downwards, both on a 24db/oct slope. The upfront bass is pretty decent.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

MazdaFan said:


> I run my Midbass drivers 63-200hz, and the sub from 63 downwards, both on a 24db/oct slope. The upfront bass is pretty decent.


Yeah, it probably is. 63hz with a steep slope "should" give the illusion of up front bass.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

its all a trade off. I can run my midbass at 90hz 12db, and sub at 53hz 6db, and get up front bass. the problem is when you start turning the volume knob up, any tactical response gives it away. I have heard many systems at 80hz that gave the up front bass illusion. Also, cabin gain can be your friend in these situations


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Regarding ‘up front bass’… what will really blow your mind is when you shut the subs off, cross the midbasses at 50hz (located in the kicks) and still feel the impact _in your back_.
That really messes with you. In my case, it’s not the sub giving it’s location away… it’s the midbasses making you think something’s behind you. I’ve yet to resolve this, but it’s on my list of things to work on.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

had the same problem bikin


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

i bet it's a resonant frequency issue...


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

I guess the question should have been what does midbass "SOUND" like to you....


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Thumper26 said:


> i bet it's a resonant frequency issue...


pretty sure that's not exactly it. 

we've tried a lot of things. including ruling that out.


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## DoingItTheHardWay (Aug 31, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> pretty sure that's not exactly it.
> 
> we've tried a lot of things. including ruling that out.


Same thing here. I think it's resonance through the floor that goes into the seat rail. There is alot of metal in some automotive seats. I assume its transfer of energy through that metal ...


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

I've seen quite alot of discussion over using quite high sub xover points 150-200hz, though in most cases about 150hz is as high as most people can push it. Now there reasons for doing this is to improve midbass response since the sub is helping here (you need a good sub) and also greatly helps integration from one range to the other. Now I've heard a particular car that was setup like this and there was absolutely no sensation or any cues to give away the location of the sub in the boot. The bass was right up front on the dash and the impact was incredible. So the argument that you need to have a low xover point to get away with the up front bass illusion is not true.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> I guess the question should have been what does midbass "SOUND" like to you....


You mean a discussion like this???


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## XllentAudio (Jun 29, 2009)

I like my sub at 63hz at 24 db/oc. I used to think it sounded better at 50 hz at 12 db/oc but 63 does the job for in your face electronic music. It's better for heavy metal too.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> pretty sure that's not exactly it.
> 
> we've tried a lot of things. including ruling that out.


x3. I don't even have subs right now and even with my xs69's crossed over at 80 I get that effect. I assumed it was because I had leather seats.


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## meisguy (Jan 16, 2009)

I think one of the most important things to acheiving accurate and deep midbass is the install. If you have a 6.5 in a factory location behind the door skin, open air there is no way it can get down to 60hz with authority. Not to mention the terrible resonance and sq. Personally i think 6.5's have no place in a three way front stage. I prefer 8's minimum for midbass. Even with 8's I have had little success bridging the gap. I never want to cross my sub over higher than 60hz, which means that midbass driver has to play down to the sub with authority. I'm not relying on cabin gain. I need a driver that can flat out do it! I agree with the alot of the people here about keeping the soundstage in tact. Nothing worse than hearing a kickdrum from behind


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## maxxis (Jun 10, 2008)

Nothing wrong with running midbass down to 50hz or even lower. I have mine at 50hz with a 12db slope and it works perfectly.

Ive played them down to 40hz in the past with great success. Nothing wrong with it either. In the end it comes down to what works in your car. 

Nobody can tell you its wrong.


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## maxxis (Jun 10, 2008)

MazdaFan said:


> I run my Midbass drivers 63-200hz, and the sub from 63 downwards, both on a 24db/oct slope. The upfront bass is pretty decent.


Welcome to a real forum buddy. Glad to see you here.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

maxxis said:


> Nothing wrong with running midbass down to 50hz or even lower. I have mine at 50hz with a 12db slope and it works perfectly.
> 
> Ive played them down to 40hz in the past with great success. Nothing wrong with it either. In the end it comes down to what works in your car.
> 
> Nobody can tell you its wrong.


There's nothing wrong with it IF your midbass drivers allow for it. And that's a BIG if.

I see you have 6.5" mids, I can't see how you can get a solid 50, let alone 40hz out of them at any reasonable volume level unless you have them in a ported enclosure especially with just a 12db slope.

Have you ever analyzed the response to see how much it's down between 40-80hz? I'm not saying you couldn't run them down that low because I haven't heard your system, but I'm skeptical.


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## maxxis (Jun 10, 2008)

Analyzed, scoped, tested, listened, RTA'd etc etc etc etc and it just works for me. 50hz is perfect for the car.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

Well I'll toss in my thoughts on this...for what it counts 

My sub handles the lows just fine...80Hz and below. Ideally, it would be crossed at 63Hz. My mids can't handle anything lower than 80Hz, so I get a response that shows the sub running out of steam and the mids stretching to hit 80Hz.

So at 30~63Hz I'm covered...down below 100Hz, I could use more help down to 63Hz (63Hz because that's what XO my headunit has).


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## David_Edwards (Nov 12, 2008)

Each year, for competition, I have ran my midbass down to [email protected](which it plays at reference level) and have the sub from [email protected] with no problems at all....


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

ahhh...cmon dave, be honest....































mo trophies......mo problems


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

ok...let me try a 3rd time...

how can you tell good midbass from bad midbass? Is it in the vocals?


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## 03blueSI (Feb 5, 2006)

Kick drum. The best midbass I had was from a set of prototype DLS 8s in my doors off of 150 watts. Crossed at 63-200 and you could feel the kick drum in your chest with the sub off. Now that is what I am trying to get back in my current install I am just starting on. The other thing is a good transition from midbass to sub. Use upright bass and cello to get this transition right depending on your crossover points.


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

Whoever has a diyma R12 you need to try crossing them around 200... I'm currently crossing mine at 230 and there is no giveaway of the location of the subs. I've got the ppi 355cs set which is a 5.25" mid and midbass sucks. So i decided to try my subs up really high and it worked out really well. It sounds/feels like its coming from the doors upfront!

















Oh yes, Be jealous.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

experimentation is key  glad to see you trying something unorthodox and getting good results Austin


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> ok...let me try a 3rd time...
> 
> how can you tell good midbass from bad midbass? Is it in the vocals?


bass guitar will point out bad midbass easily. 
listen to a reference system and play songs with bass guitar (early self titled RATM album comes to mind).


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

BigRed said:


> experimentation is key  glad to see you trying something unorthodox and getting good results Austin


I was really surprised because with past subs if i had it crossed too high it sounded like garbage.


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## Luke352 (Jul 24, 2006)

Austin said:


> Whoever has a diyma R12 you need to try crossing them around 200... I'm currently crossing mine at 230 and there is no giveaway of the location of the subs. I've got the ppi 355cs set which is a 5.25" mid and midbass sucks. So i decided to try my subs up really high and it worked out really well. It sounds/feels like its coming from the doors upfront!
> 
> Oh yes, Be jealous.




I made this point earlier in the thread, and it can work very well with the correct sub, the car I heard was running a 13" Focal sub and the sound was excellent none of that ringing you normally hear when running a sub too high, and the impact was great, and at no point was there any sensation of the sound coming from behind


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

03blueSI said:


> Kick drum. The best midbass I had was from a set of prototype DLS 8s in my doors off of 150 watts. Crossed at 63-200 and you could feel the kick drum in your chest with the sub off. Now that is what I am trying to get back in my current install I am just starting on. The other thing is a good transition from midbass to sub. Use upright bass and cello to get this transition right depending on your crossover points.


Well said 

Either the sub won't go high enough, or the mids won't go low enough. 63Hz is low enough for mids  For me at least.


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## michaelsil1 (May 24, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> ok...let me try a 3rd time...
> 
> how can you tell good midbass from bad midbass? Is it in the vocals?


Very good question!

I've seen guys cross there Mid Bass Drivers at all kinds of crazy crossover points and the Mid Bass sounds decent. Where I find an issue is with the Drums, crossing Mid Bass Drivers too low will muddy up the Drums you no longer get a good crack, snap, pop off of them.


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