# Vehicle Jerks to Subwoofer Beat While Accelerating



## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

I have a 2011 Range Rover Supercharged (full size) and for like 5-6 years I didn't have any problems but now when I am accelerating, the vehicle slightly jerks when the subwoofer hits. If I am driving at a constant speed, you can feel the vehicle lose some power as if you let off the gas and on again very quick or quickly tapped the brake; you can also see the bump in the RPM on the gauge as well. When climbing a hill, it is very noticeable too.



We first thought it was an old battery problem and replaced the battery; that didn't help. Next, we found out the alternator had issues and that was replaced with a new one; that didn't help with the jerking.



I am about to purchase a new capacitor, likley a 3 farad and installing that to see if it gets better.



Does anyone have any idea where the problem might be?



The set up is as follows:



2 Alpine Type X suboofers

2 Alpine PDXM12 1200W amplifiers

1 Farad Pheonix Gold Capacitor



Thank you.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

how loud is it when this happens?
any way to monitor voltage?

good possibility the ECU is browning out?

caps are worthless, wont help the problem at all, unless you put the cap on the electronic part that is being effected by the voltage sag


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

It is at higher volumes that this happens.. when it is turned down, then it is okay.. The louder it gets, the stronger it jerks.

How should I test the voltage? 

I am not sure how to tell if the ECU is browning out..


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

It's a range rover, you can search the rest of your life for electrical problems and never scratch the surface. It's engineered in


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

is that the knock sensor telling ya don't turn it up to 11


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Jasdip said:


> It is at higher volumes that this happens.. when it is turned down, then it is okay.. The louder it gets, the stronger it jerks.
> 
> How should I test the voltage?
> 
> I am not sure how to tell if the ECU is browning out..


if you were to play a really strong tone, like 40hz, really loud. can you kill the vehicle for a longer time? try to isolate if you have a loose connection or if it is literally pulling down the voltage and making the electronics freak out.

does it do it if you are sitting still?

the only real way to monitor the voltage in real time would be an oscope.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

If I play a hard constant tone, it won’t kill the vehicle out..

The connections are all good and tight..

Even if the voltage was dropping when the bass hits, what am I left to fix/upgrade? Keep in mind, it works fine with this exact set up for several years and the battery and alternator were replaced..


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

When sitting still, you can very slightly see the RPM nudge but not nearly what it’s like while driving or accelerating.. you would think it would be less noticible while driving since the RPM is higher and alternator is probably producing more..


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Jasdip said:


> If I play a hard constant tone, it won’t kill the vehicle out..
> 
> *The connections are all good and tight..*
> 
> Even if the voltage was dropping when the bass hits, what am I left to fix/upgrade? Keep in mind, it works fine with this exact set up for several years and the battery and alternator were replaced..


I meant a connection of the vehicle electrical system. since this has just started, something changed.

something to try, leave the stereo off and find a crazy bumpy road and drive fast on it and see if the impacts and vibrations of that will make it cut out.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

Jasdip said:


> When sitting still, you can very slightly see the RPM nudge but not nearly what it’s like while driving or accelerating.. you would think it would be less noticible while driving since the RPM is higher and alternator is probably producing more..


ya, but at higher RPM and WOT, you are demanding more of the ignition system and if that is the problem you would see it more then than at idle.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

I would think that Land Rover checked the vehicle electrical system when they replaced the alternator.. they looked into this issue as well since I still have warranty on it.. but they blamed the sound system since they can’t replicate it with the sound system off.. something to look at perhaps..

Driving on bumpy roads does not cause anything to clip out.. even cranking the factory sound system very high with the aftermarket amps switched off doesn’t lead it to jerk the vehicle at all.. it has the Harmon kardon 19 speaker upgraded sound system..


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

You are running 2400 watts RMS (2 Alpine PDXM12 1200W amplifiers) on stock electrical? I would say that is your issue. Another 2nd battery may help but a bigger alternator may be the only save there. 

Check the voltage at the amplifier while the subs are playing at the volume that this happens (vehicle sitting idle) and if it dips below 13 volts than your stock electrical cannot keep up, assuming you have good grounds and connections with good solid power and ground wiring too. Stock electrical voltage should be between 13.2 volts and 14.4 volts and most are around 13.8 volts.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

V8toilet said:


> You are running 2400 watts RMS (2 Alpine PDXM12 1200W amplifiers) on stock electrical? I would say that is your issue. Another 2nd battery may help but a bigger alternator may be the only save there.
> 
> Check the voltage at the amplifier while the subs are playing at the volume that this happens (vehicle sitting idle) and if it dips below 13 volts than your stock electrical cannot keep up, assuming you have good grounds and connections with good solid power and ground wiring too. Stock electrical voltage should be between 13.2 volts and 14.4 volts and most are around 13.8 volts.


I would agree except he did this for 5 years with no issues and he recently replaced the battery and the alt.

IMHO, something is loose.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

minbari said:


> I would agree except he did this for 5 years with no issues and he recently replaced the battery and the alt.
> 
> IMHO, something is loose.


O-missed that minor detail. Surprised he didn't have an issue on stock electrical from the start. yeah, that has to be a connection/ground issue somewhere between the alternator, battery, and amplifiers.


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

Your alternator is loading down the engine when it's in full field. Same thing that happens when the a/c compressor kicks on and off. I know when the alt in my car is under extreme load I have to almost floor the car to keep acceleration normal (although I'm also hauling around ~1000 extra lbs of gear and it's a Neon).

As for why it's happening you need to monitor voltage, preferably from at least a couple points. You can monitor "car" voltage by measuring at the battery terminals when the system is turned up and the electrical is under load. You can also use something like a voltmeter that plugs into your cig lighter for when you're driving around town. It would also be good to measure at the amp's + and - terminals under load to make sure it closely matches the same readings you see at the battery.

If you are dropping below 12v with any regularity you need to turn down the gain on your sub amps.

It could also be some random loose connection that gets jostled enough to have intermittent contact when the bass shakes the car, but check your voltage first.


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

My g/f had an Isuzu Rodeo that did something similar before the fuel pump went out. New fuel pump went in and it never did it again. I’m not saying that’s for sure your issue, but stranger things have happened. Just have the dealership put in a new one and that’ll tell you if that’s the problem or not. Fuel pump on a Range Rover can’t cost more than 3, maybe 4 thousand bucks to swap out, right? Bam, problem solved.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

I regards to it being a weak alternator or not enough battery power, again, it worked flawlessly for several years with the stock equipment.. the battery was replaced with a better battery than original as well when I replaced it, so in a better position than original.. 

In regards to the fuel pump comment.. oddly enough, my truck is going in on Monday to have something done related to fuel.. I had a “check fuel cap” light come on recently (which stopped coming) then the yellow check engine light which stays on.. they mentioned something about fuel pressure releasing or something.. however, that only came on a few weeks ago and this problem started about a year ago.. fingers crossed that it will fix the problem but I doubt it lol 

P.s. spark plugs were replaced recently as well..


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

I will get some help from someone and check the voltages as you guys have suggested as well


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## RockamyZ (Apr 29, 2017)

Any diagnostic codes? Also, a new part is not always a good part.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

SPLEclipse said:


> Your alternator is loading down the engine when it's in full field. Same thing that happens when the a/c compressor kicks on and off. I know when the alt in my car is under extreme load I have to almost floor the car to keep acceleration normal (although I'm also hauling around ~1000 extra lbs of gear and it's a Neon).
> 
> As for why it's happening you need to monitor voltage, preferably from at least a couple points. You can monitor "car" voltage by measuring at the battery terminals when the system is turned up and the electrical is under load. You can also use something like a voltmeter that plugs into your cig lighter for when you're driving around town. It would also be good to measure at the amp's + and - terminals under load to make sure it closely matches the same readings you see at the battery.
> 
> ...


^This^ looks correct. However let's look at the other causal mechanisms.

The fuel pump pressure has some voltage dependancy, and if it has a regulator then the injectors still have an opening and closing response that is voltage dependant. (The injector is a linear motor just like a speaker).

Most Fuel Injection (FI) systems have some 1/pressure^2 factor for fuel pressure and tables for "injector opening dwell time" versus voltage.

If the fuel pressure was actually low, then a "fuel log" is a capacitor of sorts for the fuel pressure. That would help for transients, but would not work if the whole system is being pulled down.

We should assume that the injectors tables are used and implemented correctly... as all EU4 emissions require that as well as humidity sensors etc.

Another mechanism is the spark coils. And they also have a dwell value that is voltage dependent. But they usually either miss or spark... So we can probably discount that.


In any case there are mechanisms which are related to variable voltage that can (and should already) be used to as strategies to account for input voltage.

If the voltage going low is correlated with the loss of power then finding the mechanism is worthwhile.

We think it is a case of the voltage going low, but we do not yet have proof that the voltage is going low.


If the battery and/or alternator was changed and then the problem reared its head, it may be cable related or some secondary effect of something close by damaged or changed.

I think you need to measure the voltage as was previously mentioned... But a capacitor will not hurt anything.


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

A "check fuel cap" code means you have a leak in the evap system. When your car is off the gas inside the tank will heat up and expand. The extra gas vapor is sequestered into a charcoal canister near the tank, and when the car is started again there is a purge valve that releases the stored gas in the canister into the engine. In older cars this gas vapor was just lost to the atmosphere, but that's bad for the environment and fuel economy (and also kind of unsafe).

An evap problem would not cause the problem you are experiencing. Typically the only thing you would see is a small loss on fuel economy. Check all rubber lines under the car around the gas tank for leaks and check the purge solenoid (typically in the engine bay) for leaks as well. A shop can run a purge solenoid test in a few minutes, and they can smoke the entire evap system to check for leaks as well. Diagnosis should take less than an hour.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

They didn’t check the diagnostic codes yet, they will when I drop it off on Monday.. but what SPLEclipse described is exactly what they told me they suspected it to be.. so I guess that’s not going to solve my problem


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

All of the ideas already mentioned are very good. I'll restate them here so that they are in a complete checklist...

#1. Double or Triple Check ALL Power & Ground Connections in the audio system AGAIN. You can't always SEE a bad connection. It must be physically tested.

#2. First Check Voltage without the system running. Then check during bass hits with the system running, at the Battery's Terminals AND at the Amplifier's Terminals. You will need a high quality (i.e. FAST) DMM to read the fluctuations.

#3. Remove the Power Stiffening Capacitor and test the system! Capacitors are one of the first types of electrical components to fail. Especially when they are in constant, heavy use. They vent and dry out and will short circuit and bulge which creates an increased load on the system. They will actually "suck up" the power by essentially becoming a large power resistor. Remove or Replace!

#4. Even if the Fuel Evaporation Recovery System cannot be at fault and is unrelated, a Waning Fuel Pump _could_ be the issue. They will become more sensitive to power fluctuations as the motor and/or bearings degrade. They usually become a bit noisier when they are on their last legs, but you won't hear this with the audio system pounding. Listen near the fuel tank with the stereo system off. If you notice a bit louder than normal whirring or muted air compressor type sound, it may be a bad fuel pump. Kind of similar to a lower level sound of the good old Ford noisy power steering pumps.

#5. Obvious, but I suspect the problem is caused by a temporary loss of Voltage or Current to the Fuel Pump, Fuel Injectors, Ignition Coils, or a Combination of those. The question is WHY & WHAT? See #3 or #6 below.

#6. AMPLIFIERS! This could be caused the amplifiers themselves. As with the power stiffening capacitor, the capacitors inside the amplifiers can and will degrade over time, especially when the amplifier is consistently pushed hard under load on a daily basis and high heat.

Disconnect the power or remove the fuses and pop the covers off of the amps. If you see any Leaking Goo on the PCB, or Bulging of the Capacitors, or browning/burnt spots on the PCB, those are most likely your culprit. This will create more constant AND intermittent current draw on the electrical system. But usually the bass hits or load created are not long enough to blow the fuse(s) until other components in the amp fail. Eventually the faulty capacitor(s) will cause the failure of resistors and/or power transistors on the board, which might permanently damage the traces on the PCB.

My top three to check are (in no particular order):

A) The Power & Ground Connections.
B) The Stiffening Capacitor
C) The Amplifiers

Good luck.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Thank you for that great summary bbfoto, I will keep that handy with my when I do my testing.. I am going to try to do this before I go in to Land Rover on Monday so I have some information to give them as well since they’re not going to do all that.. I will report back with what I find


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## WilliamS (Oct 1, 2016)

dcfis said:


> It's a range rover, you can search the rest of your life for electrical problems and never scratch the surface. It's engineered in


Its funny because its true. Ill bet the battery is going bad. It sounds crazy but rovers are very bad when a battery gets weak. Heck they will turn off a headlight to save power. You will chase that bulb down, then the ballast, and so on just to figure out its a weak battery.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

The battery was the first thing we looked at.. it was showing that the original one was still ok in battery tests but I replaced it with a new one anyways but it didn’t make any difference


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Jasdip said:


> The battery was the first thing we looked at.. it was showing that the original one was still ok in battery tests but I replaced it with a new one anyways but it didn’t make any difference


The larger question is if your charging system can keep up with the demands of your amplifiers are placing on it.


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## brewmastr (Jul 3, 2015)

So this may take a little homework on your end but shouldnt be that hard. I am making some assumptions here but as a high end luxury diagnostic expert I am pretty confident there is a way to do this with your vehicle that will give some insight into what is happening. So with that being said on most all modern vehicles there is a way to monitor the vehicle voltage through the instrument cluster. If there is not straight up an option in the menu of the instrument cluster there will be a hidden service mode for sure you can get into and watch vehicle voltage. Once you have that up it is real time and I use it a lot during road tests when I am diagnosing voltage blip type issues. Get that reading and go drive it and bump it hard. See what the voltage does. Google will be your friend in this venture on how to get that voltage display up.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

brewmastr said:


> So this may take a little homework on your end but shouldnt be that hard. I am making some assumptions here but as a high end luxury diagnostic expert I am pretty confident there is a way to do this with your vehicle that will give some insight into what is happening. So with that being said on most all modern vehicles there is a way to monitor the vehicle voltage through the instrument cluster. If there is not straight up an option in the menu of the instrument cluster there will be a hidden service mode for sure you can get into and watch vehicle voltage. Once you have that up it is real time and I use it a lot during road tests when I am diagnosing voltage blip type issues. Get that reading and go drive it and bump it hard. See what the voltage does. Google will be your friend in this venture on how to get that voltage display up.


I'm pretty sure that we already know that it is a voltage drop issue. It only happens when the audio system is turned on and it happens exactly when a low & loud subwoofer note hits. And I don't think the IP voltage reading will tell us WHAT the cause is, unless it is also producing a Check Engine or error code.

You can purchase a Bluetooth Capable OBDII reader/scanner module very inexpensively and it will show the voltage that the ECU is reporting (same as the IP) via a Smartphone or Tablet app, along with any Error Codes. There are others, but this one has good reviews and is inexpensive...

*Amazon - BAFX Products Bluetooth Diagnostic OBDII Reader/Scanner*


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## brewmastr (Jul 3, 2015)

bbfoto said:


> I'm pretty sure that we already know that it is a voltage drop issue. It only happens when the audio system is turned on and it happens exactly when a low & loud subwoofer note hits.
> 
> You can purchase a Bluetooth Capable OBDII reader/scanner module very inexpensively and it will show the voltage that the ECU is reporting (same as the IP) via a Smartphone or Tablet app. There are others, but this one has good reviews and is inexpensive...
> 
> *Amazon - BAFX Products Bluetooth Diagnostic OBDII Reader/Scanner*


Right.... But without knowing where the threshold and voltage reading is when the problem happens, it is utterly useless to state we know this is a voltage drop issue. There is more to diagnosis then being captain obvious.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

OBDII reader above will give you that info straight from the ECU, and it's easy...no hassle or requirement for putting the IP in diagnostic mode. It will also give you a sh!t ton of other information/sensor readouts, etc.

Just trying to offer an easier solution.

The voltage readings using a DMM at the battery terminals and at the amplifier terminals will also provide the voltage delta, so you'll have additional data points combined with what the ECU is reporting.

The first thing I would do and test is to remove the power (stiffening) capacitor from the voltage supply to the amplifiers. Wire the amps straight to the ( + ) and ( - ) ground without the stiffening cap in the circuit and test the system.


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## brewmastr (Jul 3, 2015)

bbfoto said:


> OBDII reader above will give you that info straight from the ECU, and it's easy...no hassle or requirement for putting the IP in diagnostic mode. It will also five you a sh!t ton of other information/sensor readouts, etc.


However it is done is chefs choice, Just keep in mind the entire reason automakers engineer that info into the instrument cluster is so a professional can drive the vehicle and monitor the information without having to fumble around with any additional equipment. It is in front of your face in an easy and safe to read spot. Regardless.... It is information that is needed to know so we can determine at what volume the problem starts occuring, then most likely we need to see what the amp draw is at that point and see if it correlates to a normal amp draw we would expect to see at the battery. If it is higher than normal there may very well be some internal fault in an amplifier causing this issue. If it is normal with what we would be expecting to see we may be dealing with a loose wiring connection. The entire key here is gathering as much information as we can to make an educated decision on where the problem lies within the system.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

bbfoto said:


> I'm pretty sure that we already know that it is a voltage drop issue. It only happens when the audio system is turned on and it happens exactly when a low & loud subwoofer note hits. And I don't think the IP voltage reading will tell us WHAT the cause is, unless it is also producing a Check Engine or error code.
> 
> You can purchase a Bluetooth Capable OBDII reader/scanner module very inexpensively and it will show the voltage that the ECU is reporting (same as the IP) via a Smartphone or Tablet app, along with any Error Codes. There are others, but this one has good reviews and is inexpensive...
> 
> *Amazon - BAFX Products Bluetooth Diagnostic OBDII Reader/Scanner*


We "know" it is a voltage issue, but I would like to see it proved.

Is it a voltage issue that traces back to the battery itself?
(It could be a bad battery ground. Or some just some circuit that the ECU is part of?)

And we have no idea what the magnitude of the problem is without a measurement, nor are we even 100%sure it is correlated with a voltage issue.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Holmz said:


> We "know" it is a voltage issue, but I would like to see it proved.
> 
> Is it a voltage issue that traces back to the battery itself?
> (It could be a bad battery ground. Or some just some circuit that the ECU is part of?)
> ...


Ummm...back to Post #23.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

bbfoto said:


> Ummm...back to Post #23.


I concur...
That post #23 was good.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Ok, so I did some testing with a good friend of mine (whose pretty good with sound systems and electrical stuff) and here is what we found:

With the sound system off:

Battery: 14.3v
Amplifiers, capacitor, circuit breaker: about 14v

With sound system on and bass turned to full and volume blasted (lowest values which were hit):

Battery: 13v
Rear Fuse Panel: 11.2v
Amplifiers: under 12v (between 11-12)

We also noticed that the system was installed with a 4 gauge wire which was not even independently run to the battery in the front, it is piggy-backing off the rear fuse box power which also has a 4 gauge running to the battery. When I was at land rover today, the service manager confirmed that everything behind the fuel tank and a lot of stuff related to fuel pumps, injectors, etc. are controlled from that box and it's basically a small computer which also needs power and, as we suspected, that could likely be causing the jerking.. See image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wwku1vfuj10kdc2/IMG_9160.JPG?dl=0

The service manager did say that people normally run a second battery in those trucks.. and the Bentley's and others come stock with 2 batteries as well and one runs the electronics.. 

My friend said that he feels that the capacitor is probably shot as well and replacing that with a higher powered one (he suggests 10 or even 20 farad, even though I think a 3 farad would suffice) may help with the issue but recommends also running a 0 gauge power wire to the battery (adding a second battery is ideal of course but that is way too much more work/cost).. 

Let me know your thoughts..


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## brewmastr (Jul 3, 2015)

I dont really think a cap is needed at all. I would agree that the cap being bad can be causing your problem but for sure having that voltage feed off the rear fuse panel is no good. You need to have your battery + to your amps direct from the battery and your ground direct to the body of the vehicle. Im not sure where your battery is in your vehicle in relation to your amp but I would think you would want 1/0 into a 4 awg distro block at that power level for those 2 amps.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

brewmastr said:


> I dont really think a cap is needed at all. I would agree that the cap being bad can be causing your problem but for sure having that voltage feed off the rear fuse panel is no good. You need to have your battery + to your amps direct from the battery and your ground direct to the body of the vehicle. Im not sure where your battery is in your vehicle in relation to your amp but I would think you would want 1/0 into a 4 awg distro block at that power level for those 2 amps.


My battery it at the front under the hood.. amps are in the back of course..


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## brewmastr (Jul 3, 2015)

yeah i would run fused 1/0 back to a fused distrubution block that feeds the 4awg to both your amps. Ditch the cap. That should fix you up.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

brewmastr said:


> I dont really think a cap is needed at all. I would agree that the cap being bad can be causing your problem but for sure having that voltage feed off the rear fuse panel is no good. You need to have your battery + to your amps direct from the battery and your ground direct to the body of the vehicle. Im not sure where your battery is in your vehicle in relation to your amp but I would think you would want 1/0 into a 4 awg distro block at that power level for those 2 amps.


If the engine is more important than the sound, then maybe there is still a need for the capacitor on the rear fuse panel.

And running the separate cable to the amps will relieve voltage drop from the rear fuse block which feeds the engine... hence that makes sense. And then running the capacitor there may work as good or better than on the rear fuse block?


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

brewmastr said:


> yeah i would run fused 1/0 back to a fused distrubution block that feeds the 4awg to both your amps. Ditch the cap. That should fix you up.


Yup!

First off. Only use high-quality "AWG" designated OFC power wire (pure copper), NOT Copper Clad Aluminum (CCA) wire! A good option for high-quality but less expensive power wire is Welding Wire or Cable from a local welding supply or Online. Otherwise I really like the *Kicker Hyper-Flex* and *KnuKonceptz Kolossus Flex Kable*.

Remove the Power Capacitor and don't replace it for the time being. It is just another extra load on your battery and alternator. The amplifiers are already designed with enough of their own power stiffening capacitors within their power supply as long as you provide the proper size power & ground wiring.

(However, we still have not determined the condition of the capacitors and/or other components inside your amplifiers. If you do all of the below actions and you still have problems, CHECK the condition of the amplifiers).

I would leave the existing 4ga gauge (+) run of wire to the OEM fuse block in place.

Then ADD a new 1/0ga (+) wire with its own circuit breaker or fuse within 18" of the battery, and run this wire to the Rear into a Fused Distribution Block with a fuse for Each 4ga wire going to the amplifiers.

Place the Fused Distro Block in the rear as close to the amps as possible, and keep the 4ga (+) wires coming out of this Distro Block and into your amplifiers as short as possible. This will reduce resistance and power loss.

We haven't seen how your amplifiers are Grounded to the chassis (-). Try to make sure that your grounding point is good by measuring the resistance in Ohms with a DMM between the ground point in the rear and the battery's Negative Terminal (-). The less resistance the better.

If you see another area that might work as a solid grounding point in the rear that is closer to the amplifiers, test it with the DMM. If it has less resistance, use it! Keep the 4ga (-) ground wires to your amplifiers as short as possible.

Make sure that the Negative (-) wire terminals connected to the ground bolt(s) and/or chassis metal at all grounding points make complete contact with clean, paint-free, rust-free, bare metal.

Use a small wire brush or sandpaper to clean the ground bolt and metal surface respectively. Protect the connections after they are secured with *NO-OX-ID Electrical Conductive Contact Grease*, or *Burndy Penetrox A-13 Conductive Electrical Joint Compound*, or a rust-preventing spray paint.

Do NOT solder or braze ring terminals to large gauge power wire! They WILL fail eventually!

Buy, borrow, or rent a proper hydraulic or HD crimper to crimp the proper size ring terminals to the wire. Do NOT use the "hammer-on-concrete method".

Your service manager at the dealer may be able and willing to do proper crimp terminals for you. Or, I'm not sure where you are located, but most NAPA Auto Parts Stores have good copper ring terminals and will crimp them onto your wire. Make sure that you choose the correct size hole diameter on your ring terminals for the bolts they will be connected to.

***And there are eBay sellers who will make USA-made OFC custom length and custom crimped battery and power cables at very reasonable prices...search for "Custom Battery Cables" and make sure to get AWG OFC cable.

If you cannot have proper crimps done, buy the  *Streetwires 0 Gauge & 4 Gauge Inter-Lok Ring Terminals*. You can use the conductive grease mentioned above on the terminal's joining threads and the entry point of the wire into the ring terminal to prevent oxidation. If used properly, these work very well, and can be easily re-used if your system changes or you get a new vehicle.

Upgrade the OEM Ground Wire at the Negative (-) Battery Terminal to the Vehicle's Chassis under the hood with 1/0ga wire. Again, make sure the connection point is to clean, bare metal and makes thorough contact. A protective grease or paint on this connection is recommended to prevent oxidation & corrosion.

If you need to replace the battery terminals to accommodate any of this, the ones made for multiple ring terminals are best IMO. I like the higher conductivity marine/miltary ZINC terminals..."Grote (84-9581) Military"

But if you need to retain a battery top post-type connection in addition to ring terminals, check out the KnuKonceptz "Bassik" battery terminals. They accept ring terminals but you can also buy a separate screw-in positive or negative brass battery post (#TPA-POS). The add-on post can go in any of the terminal screw holes...right side, top, or left side.

You can use more than one battery post adapter if needed, though clearance might be an issue. As shown in the photos on the website, this battery terminal will allow you to attach up to 5 Ring Terminals if they are oriented properly. See the website below for photos.

*KnuKonceptz Bassik battery terminals with add-on battery post*

*KnuKonceptz #TPA-POS top post adapter (+)*

Consult your dealer's service manager about upgrading the (+) wire from the alternator to the (+) battery terminal. In many cases the OEM (+) alternator wire has what is called a "Fuseable Link" which is a special type of in-line fuse that just looks like it's part of the wire itself (but usually covered with what looks like a several inch long piece of black heat shrink tubing). Or this wire may have a voltage/current sensor connected to it that is spec'd for the OEM wire.


If you follow these steps, you should be able to completely eliminate your problem, as long as the condition of your amplifiers are not also contributing to the problem.

Other DIYMA members please double-check my suggestions.

Good luck.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

bbfoto said:


> Yup!
> 
> First off. Only use high-quality "AWG" designated OFC power wire (pure copper), NOT Copper Clad Aluminum (CCA) wire! A good option for high-quality but less expensive power wire is Welding Wire or Cable from a local welding supply or Online. Otherwise I really like the *Kicker Hyper-Flex* and *KnuKonceptz Kolossus Flex Kable*.


 3......2........1
Here comes the arguing.


> Do NOT solder or braze ring terminals to large gauge power wire! They WILL fail eventually!
> 
> .
> 
> Good luck.


Lol, not if you do it right. I have a 10 year old soldered ring on 4ga wire. Good as the day I it.

Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


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## Gramps (Jul 10, 2018)

Hi, sorry to hear about your problem, and I’m needing to stress that I’m in no means a mechanic or a audio/electrical engineer, but i do have some insights into performance vehicles with forced induction and i have a few suggestions that may be worth at least a think.

1stly, don’t ever assume that a NEW part is 100%, i once went through 3 alternators (all brand new and reputable brands) and heaps of hair pulling (perhaps why I’m now bald) searching for a solution to a problem in my 1st car.

2nd, since your car is forced induction, every tiny little electric issue will have an impact on your performance, so maybe if your fuel pump and regulators were still “testing” fine, they may be at the lowest passable tolerance “under normal circumstances”, however running 2400wrms is not really a “normal circumstance” so i would really be pushing for a look into the fuel system, and as a failsafe, at stoich meter under load driving while your experiencing the issue, if it tends to lean out a little then you will know its a fuel issue and i would get it sorted asap, under load and boost a lean mix will be doing damage to your pistons.

Does your supercharger run a clutch system that’s based on a vacuum signal or an elaborate electrical system??
This is pretty far flung, but could be plausible, its more likely an electrical system that will deactivate the clutch on the supercharger allowing it to boost depending on throttle position, while they were changing the alternator they may have bumped the plug and it maybe moving around under the bass vibration or not having enough of a connection to complete the circuit efficiently enough so when there is extra draw on the system its enough to engage the clutch and stop the super charger producing any boost.
An easy way to check this is with a boost gauge, see if its producing boost or the boost drops while you experience the problem.

I also have an issue in explaining things, so if me explanations don’t make any sense i can try to explain them in a different way

Hope you can sort out this annoying problem without it costing an arm and a leg, 
Some of the other suggestions sound plausible, but I don’t see the need to throw $$ on new stuff to see if it makes a difference, it could be $$ wasted.

Or, since I’ve been reading thru my post, I’ve just thought of this, 
Put the car on a Dyno to see if you can get it to experience the issue, it will have a boost readout, fuel pressure, a/f ratio’s and will data log all of the cars vitals, all in the one place at the same time, plus while your there, you could get it re mapped, get more power and most possibly better fuel economy:beerchug::beerchug::beerchug:

Krem


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## RockamyZ (Apr 29, 2017)

That voltage at the rear fuse panel is very low. If said vehicle has a variably controlled fuel pump, it could possibly mess with the controller. Just a thought. As always, look for the stupid **** first. Usually is something stupid.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> 1stly, don’t ever assume that a NEW part is 100%, i once went through 3 alternators (all brand new and reputable brands) and heaps of hair pulling (perhaps why I’m now bald) searching for a solution to a problem in my 1st car.
> 
> 2nd, since your car is forced induction, every tiny little electric issue will have an impact on your performance, so maybe if your fuel pump and regulators were still “testing” fine, they may be at the lowest passable tolerance “under normal circumstances”, however running 2400wrms is not really a “normal circumstance” so i would really be pushing for a look into the fuel system, and as a failsafe, at stoich meter under load driving while your experiencing the issue, if it tends to lean out a little then you will know its a fuel issue and i would get it sorted asap, under load and boost a lean mix will be doing damage to your pistons.


A couple of comments on this...

First we have established that the maximum voltage output is within operating specs at 14.3V. To go further you would need to load test the alt. Most people don't have the equipment to do that but you can get it done at most high volume auto parts stores (Auto Zone and etc.). However, given it is outputting 14.3V and other factors described herein (the amps being powered off of the rear fuse box which is fed by 4 gauge is the biggest factor) *I wouldn't go through the trouble yet.
*

Second we have established there is a large voltage drop 22% [(14.3-11.2)/14.3]. This is enough to cause lots of problems, particularly on a supercharged vehicle under load.

Your comment about fuel AFR going lean is true but the voltage fluctuation is enough to cause this issue. The fuel injectors open and closed more slowly at lower voltages. The tune in the vehicle attempts to address this with a look up table but with the voltage dancing all over the place this will not be a very accurate adjustment. The voltage also effects the flow rate out of the fuel pump. Most of the tunes I have edited do not address voltage fluctuation but rather seek to minimize the fluctuation through the power supply in the fuel pump circuitry. At this level of fluctuation I would not expect the power supply circuitry to be successful. Bottom line - *you don't need to replace other components you need to limit the voltage fluctuation*.

While pre-ignition and detonation can cause damage to pistons this is typically not a cumulative effect. They are either damaged or not. If he is good so far he is likely fine.



> Put the car on a Dyno to see if you can get it to experience the issue, it will have a boost readout, fuel pressure, a/f ratio’s and will data log all of the cars vitals, all in the one place at the same time, plus while your there, you could get it re mapped, get more power and most possibly better fuel economy


Dynos, at least in my neck of the woods are expensive. *At best the dyno will confirm that he is losing power when the bass hits* - if you can convince the dyno operator to allow the music to blare while testing the car. I am not sure how he would benefit from this activity - it would tell him what he already knows. Also a tune isn't something that is done is a few minutes. It takes quite a bit of time to do it right. Unless he has added aftermarket performance parts it is completely unnecessary as you are not going to add substantial performance over the factory tune without decreasing safety margins (which I would not do on a Rover with 2400W of stereo). There are exceptions to that statement such as the pontiac solstice but even it requires a few aftermarket parts to enjoy the benefits of a tune. IMO - Waaaaay too much risk versus reward.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

minbari said:


> 3......2........1
> Here comes the arguing.
> 
> Lol, not if you do it right. I have a 10 year old soldered ring on 4ga wire. Good as the day I it.


You can do whatever you want. But do an industry-standard pull test on it and see what happens compared to a properly crimped terminal. 

I can just tell you that you will not find any OEM automobile manufacturers, airlines, the military, or aerospace companies soldering or brazing large gauge power wire to crimp terminals. Might be a good reason why.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

SSSnake said:


> A couple of comments on this...
> 
> First we have established that the maximum voltage output is within operating specs at 14.3V. To go further you would need to load test the alt. Most people don't have the equipment to do that but you can get it done at most high volume auto parts stores (Auto Zone and etc.). However, given it is outputting 14.3V and other factors described herein (the amps being powered off of the rear fuse box which is fed by 4 gauge is the biggest factor) *I wouldn't go through the trouble yet.
> *
> ...


I think we need to compare the 11.2V with whatever the voltage is at the battery... (which will be lower than 14.3).

In any case, If the amp is trying to draw enough amperes at 14.3, then it will be ~23% more amperes at 23% less voltage. So the alternator will be working harder again.

---

The only thing manifesting itself as being affected by low voltage is the engine. So if anything needs a capacitor it is the fuel pump, injectors and ECU... But in reality the whole of the system is tied together on the + side, so a capacitor can, in theory, go anywhere.

In practice though...
Having that voltage drop on the 4ga cable is only affecting the engine because that same cable is also feeding the fuel pump etc. Moving the amp over to a dedicated line should make the existing rear-block be closer to battery voltage if the current draw is low.

If that new amp cable is large then the battery will be going fluctuating more, and not less. If the new cable was a 4ga cable, then it it may still be hitting down at 11.2, and a capacitor on that side would be potentially more helpful than if it was a 0ga cable.

The OP probably wants the amp on a separate amp cable, and the capacitor on that side should make things more smooth overall. A 0-ga cable may minimise loss and lower alternator current, but any separate cable will result in less voltage drop on the more important cable. 

Google "Lucas Prince of Darkness".


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

I had a ford probe on my rack many years ago for this exact problem. 

It had been to many shops before the owner brought it to our ford dealership. 

I found it almost right away, just by a total fluke. 

While i was revving it up i accidently hit the driver's side kick panel with the toe of my boot. 
The problem manifested instantly and i could repeat this at will. 

So i pulled the kick panel cover and looked at the fuse box, which had been done before by previous mechanics. 
The fuse panel was the glass tube style and i found one of the holding tangs was cracked just enough to keep the fuse there but not enough to make good contact. As soon as i gave it a tweak the tang broke right off. 
It was the 5 amp ecm fuse. 
Soldered a new jumper/fuse between the two contacts and it was good to go. 

Sometimes problems like this are very simple yet very hard to track down.


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## riceandpho (Dec 30, 2009)

i thought the battery is in the rear of the car? isnt that usually for euro cars?


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

bbfoto said:


> You can do whatever you want. But do an industry-standard pull test on it and see what happens compared to a properly crimped terminal.
> 
> I can just tell you that you will not find any OEM automobile manufacturers, airlines, the military, or aerospace companies soldering or brazing large gauge power wire to crimp terminals. Might be a good reason why.


Lol. I will keep that in mind if I need to tow a car with my power wire.

Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

minbari said:


> Lol. I will keep that in mind if I need to tow a car with my power wire.


LOL, okay (never say never, stranger things have been done)! 

But the "pull test" is not done just so you can "tug" on the wire and know that it'll be "okay". It is simply the best way to test & confirm that the crimp in fact makes a thorough, solid, strong, and Air-Tight connection that will not fail under extreme vibration, or extreme hot/cold cycles, and will not be subject to oxidation that may compromise & degrade the quality of the connection.

In the automotive environment, any one or all of these can be a factor, and the wiring is subject to a lot of these conditions on a daily, monthly, and yearly basis.

Let's say you live in Buffalo, NY and it's winter. You own a Diesel powered 4x4 truck and you have a 4 gauge power wire using a soldered-on crimp-style ring terminal that is connected to the battery terminal under the hood.

While your truck sits parked overnight it is exposed to sub-freezing temperatures. Then you get in your truck to drive off to work or wherever in the morning for a 30 minute or longer drive. 

The engine and exhaust manifolds bring the under-hood temperatures up to 70°F, well above freezing. And during the trip it's exposed to constant vibration, both from the engine and road/tires/suspension.

You get to your destination and other than the engine block, the temps under the hood drop again fairly quickly.

You drive back and forth to lunch and this cycle repeats all over again. 

Then you drive home and this cycle repeats once again.

Maybe you go out for dinner and a movie....this cycle repeats yet again.

So just in that one day you have 4 fairly extreme cold/hot/cold cycles, with a good bit of vibration thrown into the mix.

Rinse & Repeat...every day, for months, and the months turn into years, and so on.

And in summer, the ambient heat combined with the under-hood engine temps may actually be enough to at least slightly soften the lead solder.

Lead solder is a very soft metal that also has a very low melting point. It expands and contracts quite a bit and quite easily with temperature changes. This is generally a beneficial property of solder for most applications where a very small amount and thin layer of solder makes the connections.

But a large mass of solder expands and contracts exponentially more in these same conditions, AND at a much different rate and amount compared to other metals in the joint. In addition, there is something called Galvanic or Bimetallic Corrosion that happens when different types of metal are used in a joint or connection.

All of this leads to way more _potential_ for the joint to fail. It may never completely fail, but the quality of the connection will certainly degrade over time.

TL;DR **** (Below)

True story. A friend that I work with occasionally came out to my place so I could check out his stereo system in his older Ford Explorer and advise him on what, if anything, he could upgrade or do to improve the system. He lives in Joshua Tree, CA...the high desert where it gets fairly cold in the winter (but dry) and obviously really hot in the summer.

He had a nice system, but was having problems recently with the subwoofer amplifier cutting out and going into protect mode. The subs and amps were correctly wired for a 2-ohm load to the amps. He said that he had 0 ga power wire run from the battery to a distro block in the rear for his amps and that his ground connections in the back were also 0 ga with a solid connection.

As per my normal M.O., I always start diagnosing any system by checking all of the power and ground connections, making sure that everything is fused properly, etc.

Everything looked good in the back where the amplifiers were mounted, but I did notice that one of the 4 ga wires going to the 4-channel amp had a soldered-on ring terminal. I closely inspected it and it looked like a good connection. I gave it a "Yank" test and it held tight. Good enough for me to not suspect this as being the main problem. 

Unfortunately, everything checked out as OK in the back...I say "unfortunately" because I was hoping to find the problem there. 

On to the battery, power wiring, and fuses under the hood. Everything was nicely organized and there was an appropriate fuse holder & fuse on the 0 ga (+) wire connected a short distance away from the battery.

The OEM chassis ground from the battery was also upgraded to 0 gauge. It had a crimped ring terminal at the chassis connection ground bolt and the cable looked like an off-the-shelf battery cable from an industrial truck supplier.

I checked the Allen/Hex screws that were securing the main fuse in the fuse holder and checked the condition of the fuse. All good.

The battery terminals were covered with boots. I removed the boots and found that the Negative (-) terminal had been replaced with a typical car audio battery terminal that had 0 ga & 4ga drilled openings with Hex set screws to secure the wires. Not my favorite type of terminal, but I re-tightened all of the set screws which were already fairly tight, and gave all of the wires a good tug. All secure.

For the Positive (+) battery terminal, my friend had just used the OEM battery terminal, and connected the ring terminal of the 0 ga power wire under the nut & washer of the main bolt that tightens the terminal to the battery post, which actually makes a decent connection.


****There was red heat shrink tubing over the Positive (+) ring terminal, but you could see that it had been roughly flattened, and sure enough, my buddy said that he and another friend had hammered the terminal onto the wire, and then soldered it "to be safe".

I gave it a good "yank" and slammed the back side of my hand into the hood hinge...OUCH!!!

The 0 ga wire had come right out of the terminal with hardly any resistance. The solder that was left on the surface of the wire was white, powdery, and in a "crumbling" like state. "Houston, I think we FOUND our problem!"

I replaced this ring terminal and the one that was soldered in the back with the Streetwires 0ga & 4ga "Inter-Lok" terminals and all was good. I did have to drill out the hole in the 0 ga ring terminal a bit on the drill press so it would fit the OEM terminal bolt, but the bass was back in business. 


Anyway...It's neither difficult nor expensive to do proper crimped power terminals these days (see the resources I provided in a previous post). So WHY risk it???

No joke, we are dealing with something that could potentially cause a vehicle fire, and/or damage OEM or aftermarket equipment, cost us a lot of money, stress, and possibly cause injuries to ourselves or our family. You just go right ahead and use those soldered connections, bro. 

If I had any soldered or brazed power terminals in my system I'd be sure to periodically check them and they would always be nagging the OCD in the back of my mind.

I apologize in advance to the OP for the thread derail!


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## brewmastr (Jul 3, 2015)

bbfoto is correct. Crimped connections are far less prone to failure when done correctly and easier to identify a correctly done crimp joint vs solder joint. There are many large gauge wires that actually are soldered in vehicles. On my vehicle the factory has 1/0 from the alternator under the hood to the trunk where the battery is and it is soldered at the positive battery terminal, and I have seen this on many other makes and models of vehicles that i work on too. The caveat here....... They are also crimped. So crimp/solder or just crimp. Never just solder a large awg wire to a ring terminal.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

brewmastr said:


> bbfoto is correct. Crimped connections are far less prone to failure when done correctly and easier to identify a correctly done crimp joint vs solder joint. There are many large gauge wires that actually are soldered in vehicles. On my vehicle the factory has 1/0 from the alternator under the hood to the trunk where the battery is and it is soldered at the positive battery terminal, and I have seen this on many other makes and models of vehicles that i work on too. The caveat here....... They are also crimped. So crimp/solder or just crimp. Never just solder a large awg wire to a ring terminal.


Interesting. I have never seen an OEM crimped AND soldered large gauge power terminal. I would think that the OEM uses a special high-temperature/melting-point solder, perhaps with other special properties.

But this is strange because all of the "white papers" that I've read from companies that manufacture and supply industrial crimping tools and terminals (it's usually a system) show that when the crimp is done properly the wire and the terminal become "cold-welded" into basically a solid mass where there would be absolutely no air gaps or crevices for the solder to flow or wick into.

Are you sure that this is not simply a corrosion-resistant hot-dipped Zinc coating that looks like solder? I've seen this in the marine industry.


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## brewmastr (Jul 3, 2015)

Took me a second to find an example that was clearly visable. Mercedes does this to all there large gauge battery cables, they are all crimped and then soldered. Here is a photo of a negative battery cable from a 2003 SL500. https://dudazps6njn84.cloudfront.net/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/z/4HgAAOSwc-tY59lM/$_57.JPG?set_id=8800005007

Edit: Here is another example https://cdn3.volusion.com/r4zy7.bgtw9/v/vspfiles/photos/AUTH-006448-3.jpg?1523814406


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

brewmastr said:


> Took me a second to find an example that was clearly visable. Mercedes does this to all there large gauge battery cables, they are all crimped and then soldered. Here is a photo of a negative battery cable from a 2003 SL500.
> 
> https://dudazps6njn84.cloudfront.net/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/z/4HgAAOSwc-tY59lM/$_57.JPG?set_id=8800005007
> 
> ...



Thanks! I had a new at the time 2001 SL430 and I replaced the battery terminals during an audio install and didn't notice any solder in the terminals on the power wire at that point in time. Hmmm. Again, this goes against everything I've read and seen from crimp terminal & crimp systems manufacturers. Weird.

But as you said, it's important to note that the terminals were properly crimped as well.

Thanks again for posting. ?

v Thanks Nick. Better to not derail this thread any further!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Your welcome..

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/fabrication-tools-tricks-trade/379530-crimps-vs-solder.html

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...rminals-those-who-were-looking-more-info.html


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> If that new amp cable is large then the battery will be going fluctuating more, and not less. If the new cable was a 4ga cable, then it it may still be hitting down at 11.2, and a capacitor on that side would be potentially more helpful than if it was a 0ga cable.


It is possible that the fluctuation will be larger but i doubt it. The voltage drop means the cable is heating up and disappating energy. This has likely damaged the cable over the years in effect making it smaller than a 4 gauge wire. I would replace the 4 gauge with fresh wire and put the amps on their own 1/0. If the problem persists the maybe a cap at the amps.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

SSSnake said:


> It is possible that the fluctuation will be larger but i doubt it. The voltage drop means the cable is heating up and disappating energy. This has likely damaged the cable over the years in effect making it smaller than a 4 gauge wire. I would replace the 4 gauge with fresh wire and put the amps on their own 1/0. If the problem persists the maybe a cap at the amps.


The cable heating up and the voltage drop are related...
There is a causal mechanis, and the energy has to come out somewhere, which is heat.

However I have never heard of copper evaporating away over time out of a cable.

How one tells if a cable is damaged is by measuring the resistance. There are no magic modes, just resistance.
Of course in the real world almost all the problems happen at the interfaces... so the usual connector to cable interface should be checked.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

SSSnake said:


> It is possible that the fluctuation will be larger but i doubt it. The voltage drop means the cable is heating up and disappating energy. This has likely damaged the cable over the years in effect making it smaller than a 4 gauge wire. I would replace the 4 gauge with fresh wire and put the amps on their own 1/0. If the problem persists the maybe a cap at the amps.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Do you have any idea how hot copper has to get to melt? This is not the problem

Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Just a heads up guys.. Land Rover took a whole week with my truck when it was supposed to be 3 days.. I won’t have time to check everything out and try the new capacitor and update you guys until I get back from vacation.. I take off on Tuesday.. didn’t want anyone to think I dissapeared after sorting it out and didn’t respond or share the solution!


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Jasdip said:


> Just a heads up guys.. Land Rover took a whole week with my truck when it was supposed to be 3 days.. I won’t have time to check everything out and try the new capacitor and update you guys until I get back from vacation.. I take off on Tuesday.. didn’t want anyone to think I dissapeared after sorting it out and didn’t respond or share the solution!


Bummer that your Rover was out of commission for so long, but Enjoy your vacation!

Please do come back and report your findings when you have the time, as I'm sure that we're all interested to know what was going on, and the solution(s). It might help someone else with a similar issue in the future.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

SPLEclipse said:


> A "check fuel cap" code means you have a leak in the evap system. When your car is off the gas inside the tank will heat up and expand. The extra gas vapor is sequestered into a charcoal canister near the tank, and when the car is started again there is a purge valve that releases the stored gas in the canister into the engine. In older cars this gas vapor was just lost to the atmosphere, but that's bad for the environment and fuel economy (and also kind of unsafe).
> 
> An evap problem would not cause the problem you are experiencing. Typically the only thing you would see is a small loss on fuel economy. Check all rubber lines under the car around the gas tank for leaks and check the purge solenoid (typically in the engine bay) for leaks as well. A shop can run a purge solenoid test in a few minutes, and they can smoke the entire evap system to check for leaks as well. Diagnosis should take less than an hour.


Just a quick update regarding this.. I got my truck back with a $700 bill to fix pretty much what SPLEclipse described, but the check fuel cap light and yellow check engine light still come on:|


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## SPLEclipse (Aug 17, 2012)

Your vehicle might need to go through a certain number of drive cycles in order to self-clear the code(s). It's also possible that the codes have to be cleared externally, although I'm not sure why the shop wouldn't do that. Of course...the problem could also still be there. Call the shop and see what they say.


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## adrianp89 (Oct 14, 2007)

Was the core issue ever fixed? It seems like a lot of discussion when clearly piggy backing 2400 watts off a fuse panel is the problem.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Hey guys, sorry to bring this back from the dead.. I had a lot of stuff going on over the last several months and had to put this on the back burner.. 

I did swap the capacitor out to a different one a few months back. It was not brand new, it was a friend’s old one which I put in just for testing in case mine was gone bad. This one has a digital gauge built in as well. The gauge shows 14V’ish at idle and drops under 12V under major load which is pretty consistent with the previous capacitor.

I temporarily turned the gains down on the amps as well but it didn’t really help too much, although I didn’t turn them down too much either. I’ve just not been turning the system up as loud while driving to avoid damage to the electrical system or other vehicle components due to the voltage drops.

I reviewed this entire thread again, I will be getting a new power cable and running a dedicated line to the battery for testing. My guess is that it will resolve the jerking issue since the rear fuse box won’t be strained anymore, but you never know. I will report back with what the outcome.

I will also check all the connections and crimp new connections on if it looks like I need to. I will check the grounds as well. Checking the connections on the alternator will be more difficult for me so I’ll save that for later but prior to considering a replacement high output alternator.


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

Bud, we had a trooper that WAS doing the same thing. Had a sundown 3k on subs and when it hit bout shut the trooper down. Put a secondary batter in and never happened again. No alt upgrades etc. just an excide battery and ran a set of cables to the back from the main battery.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

I decided to just get the power wire run by a professional since I should be moving it off the rear fuse box regardless. The installer recommended running a 4 gauge wire from the battery to the capacitor and said that would be good enough. I was thinking to go with a 0 or 1/0 gauge (OFC) given the power of the sound system. My appointment is for next week. What are your guys’ thought for the wire thickness?

If this doesn’t work out, I suppose I can consider using that new wire to connect into a second battery in the back. Is it possible to run into an issue with that second battery draining when the sound is going hard for a long time or would the alternator/primary battery be able to feed it fast enough for it not to affect the sound system?


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## Collazo (Feb 28, 2016)

I would just do the 0 gauge (OFC for sure) to be safe. 2400watts at 13.7volts and ~15ft puts you at 2 gauge range according to the common charts on this topic. I wouldn't try to skimp since you've already had issues. I run 0 gauge every time to give myself headroom.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

The installer was charging me like $16 (CAD) per foot for the 0 gauge wire which was pretty high. I ended up ordering the KnuKonceptz Kolossus Flex Kable (OFC) as per bbfoto’s suggestion which worked out to about $5.50 per foot on Amazon and will be supplying it to him for install.

I’ll report back with the results..


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## Dwright803 (Mar 20, 2020)

Jasdip said:


> The installer was charging me like $16 (CAD) per foot for the 0 gauge wire which was pretty high. I ended up ordering the KnuKonceptz Kolossus Flex Kable (OFC) as per bbfoto’s suggestion which worked out to about $5.50 per foot on Amazon and will be supplying it to him for install.
> 
> I’ll report back with the results..


I have a 2012 lincoln mkx. 2 12 skar evil, with skar 2000 watt amp. Running 0 gauge wire and a second battery. Have had this hooked up in 2011 chevy malibu no problems. But with this truck, my rpms are going up when the bass hits hard and I do feel jerking when at stop lights. Did your problem get figured out?


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

I have an appointment on Thursday to get the new wire run and I will let you guys know if it solves the problem.

My power wire is currently running from the 2 amplifiers to the capacitor, then capacitor to the rear fuse box. The rear fuse box is fed from the main battery as per the factory wiring. Our theory is that some of the fuel injectors and other electronics related to acceleration are connected to the rear fuse box and when the bass hits and the rear fuse box drops to or under 12V, that is when there is a hiccup in the RPM due to those electronics being starved of power. My RPM doesn't go up when the bass hits as you mentioned, my truck actually struggles to maintain steady RPM and while accelerating and it actually pulls back on the steady increase in RPM just as the bass hits. I also don't notice very much while stopped at a light, maybe a slight shake in the RPM needle if anything.

Do you have a battery isolator installed as well or are your batteries just wired in parallel without it?


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## Dwright803 (Mar 20, 2020)

No battery isolator. But have fuses between batteries and fuse between second battery and amp. I dont listen without truck on. I checked both batteries and their solid 12.6. Alternator seems to fluctuate a tad when bass is on but still stays between 14.2 and 14.6. I've heard of rpms dropping but never jumping . I'm stumped


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

I was considering adding a second battery too but have been getting mixed reviews. I've read that when your vehicle is started, a second battery won't make much of a difference and is actually more of a load on your alternator. Have you tried to bypass the second battery?

I know your situation is a bit different with the RPM jumping up; however, for my issue, I would think that getting a high output alternator may be a better option since I don't listen to my music with the vehicle off either. 

Perhaps someone else can weigh in..


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## Dwright803 (Mar 20, 2020)

Good idea. I may try to just run the main battery tomorrow. Whem I first got the system I had a capacitor and it just wasn't enough to keep my lights from going way dim, so I got the battery. It cured that situation. I ran the same system in a 2011 chevy malibu for over a year and never had a problem. I didnt do the big 3 or a different alternator. I've always ran my power wire direct from the main battery then fuse to second battery then another fuse to my amp. Then I ran my ground from a bolt to my car frame to second battery then into amp. If running the one battery doesn't work I may try a different ground. Have you tried running your power wire directly to your battery to capacitor then to amps?


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Let’s see how your’s does by bypassing the second battery, but it sounds like your lights might dim like before.. 

I thought I would try to run the new wire myself directly to the battery and bypassing the rear fuse box but after I ripped all the bottom panels off on the passenger side of my truck, I realized the 0 gauge wire was too thick to run through there.. I will just have to let the professional do it lol

When I took the panels off under the passenger side glove box area, it looked like the power wire from the rear fuse boxes connects to something else there too. I didn’t start opening more up but there is another fuse box located behind the glove box and I have a feeling that the rear one might be fed from that one which is likely fed from the battery. This would in turn be potentially causing a voltage drop to that fuse box too which may be controlling some critics components, making the problem worse than originally expected.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Hope you get this figured out! I also have the exact same issue in my VW CC. I’ve installed a 370 amp alternator w/15v regulator. Big 3 and two runs of 1/0 to a second battery. It’s done it with two completely different sound systems also. I have very little of any volt fluctuations. And have an obdeleven for VW that shows nothing going on in the logs.... I gave up trying to figure it out.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Hey guys, so this is what I have done and figured out in the last week:

The professional installer that I had an appointment with cancelled after I arrived to have the new 1/0 gauge wire run, so I decided to do it on my own. This was very tough with the 1/0 gauge but I managed to do a clean install running it down the passenger side under the panels. If anyone would like to know details on how, just send me a message.

I ran the 1/0 gauge wire directly from the battery to the back and connected it into the capacitor (I replaced the original capacitor a while back with the current one). I tested the sound system and the jerking did not go away. Almost no difference after bypassing the rear fuse box.

Next, I installed a second battery in the back, after fully charging it first. I connected the batteries in parallel (I did not put a fuse/circuit breaker between the back battery and the amps just for testing, but there is one between the first main battery and second). I do notice a decrease in the jerking when the bass hits but it did not go away. It is probably at least half of what it was before the second battery was installed. The bass also seems to be louder/stronger with this set up as well (hopefully its not just in my head).

I am thinking about permanently installing the second battery in the back to lighten the load on the factory electrical system. If I do, should I be adding any solenoid in the setup, or fuse between the second battery and amps, or anything else to ensure proper charging and safety? I don't ever listen to my music without the truck running so I am not worried about draining the battery with the engine off.

Second, since there is still jerking when the bass hits, any idea what the problem could be at this point? Would a high output alternator solve this issue? Would it be able to solve the issue without installing a second battery?

P.S. I am going to disconnect the power wire from the main battery today so I run on the second battery only and see what happens.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

I would not disconnect the main battery.
Maybe putting the/a capacitor closer to the ECU?

Just changing things to see what happens is somewhat of a lottery approach to it.
Putting an o-scope close to the ECU may be worthwhile?
I am assuming it is the ECU that is being affected???

You probably need to figure what the voltage is that cause the bawking, and what the system voltage is being pulled down to? And what component I should being affected.

E.g. If the second battery is connected to the ECU does the bawling stop?


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

I disconnected the main battery just to test what would happen with the sound system running from only the second dedicated battery. The result was that the truck was still jerking when the bass hit. The only relation to the truck the sound system has with that set up is that the ground wire on the second battery is still connected to the chassis. The lights still very slightly dim (same as before) as well. Does this change anyone's opinion about their thoughts?



Holmz said:


> Putting an o-scope close to the ECU may be worthwhile?


I don't have access to an o-scope so just trying to exhaust everything else before trying to find one.



Holmz said:


> You probably need to figure what the voltage is that cause the bawking, and what the system voltage is being pulled down to? And what component I should being affected.


With the sound system off:

Battery: 14.3v
Amplifiers, capacitor, circuit breaker: about 14v

With sound system on and bass turned to full and volume blasted (lowest values which were hit):

Battery: 13v
Rear Fuse Panel: 11.2v
Capacitor: under 12v
Amplifiers: under 12v (between 11-12)

*This was before bypassing the rear fuse box and running a direct 1/0 gauge from the battery to the system and before installing the second battery in the back.

By the way, I also took the power wires out of the amp connectors since they were showing some corrosion. I decided to cut the ends, strip them back, and connect them again. I saw that both the ground and positive wires going into the amps are corroded. They are green around the outside perimeter of the wire. The center in pretty clean. The speaker wire appears to be similar from what i can see through the clear jacket but I haven't taken those apart and stripped them back. These are about 9 years old. I was thinking to replace all of the wiring perhaps and replaced the soldered "Y" connections to the amps with power distribution units. See image of one of the positive 8 gauge wires going into the amp. Could this be causing a problem? The ground wire to the chassis looks good however.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Are ^those numbers^ at the amp, the battery, or at the ECU?


This could also help:
Measure from the battery to the positive at the amp
And then from the ground at the battery to the negative at the amp.

See what those voltages read tell you drop in the positive and the drop in the ground wires... they should low... around 0-1V


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

I indicated on my post where those readings were taken for each one. I suppose I will have to do the test again after having bypassed the rear fuse box and add in the ground connections as you mentioned.

The grounds should only have 0-1v under heavy load? What would be an indicator that something is wrong, they would be higher readings?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

I wouldn’t count on a high output alt fixing this issue as a 370 amp alt did nothing to make my exact same issue better.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Jasdip said:


> I indicated on my post where those readings were taken for each one. I suppose I will have to do the test again after having bypassed the rear fuse box and add in the ground connections as you mentioned.
> 
> The grounds should only have 0-1v under heavy load? What would be an indicator that something is wrong, they would be higher readings?


The current and resistance resukt in a voltage drop.
You could grab the resistance/foot and measure or,estimate the current and be bel,to predict the voltage drop.

Most modestly sized cables are pretty low resistance and hence not much voltage drop.
Howeve rsomething is jacked up, like a rust ground to chassis bolt, or paint on the surface, or corroded ends where they go into them ampmormbattery then an abnormally high reading would be found.




Selkec said:


> I wouldn’t count on a high output alt fixing this issue as a 370 amp alt did nothing to make my exact same issue better.


Particularly if the alternator takes a while to say to itself, "whoa I need to crank up the output"... then the sub beat can come-n-go with the alternator always playing catch up.

I suppose I feel the alternator was rated at X, and the system is drawing >X, then more alternator should help. Maybe it need to go back a read how much power is being drawn and how much the alternator is capable of.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

I hope you figure it out as I have done everything and added everything possible besides supercap banks which I am tempted to try now


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Maybe try to figure out what part is being affected.

The spark plug coils are either a coil or a coil on plug, or coil park.
They often are programed to have more dwell with lower voltage.

The injectors are quite often programed to have fuel pressure compensation, and the fuel pump pressure can be affected by fuel pump voltage.

I cannot think of anything else. But Murphey's probably puts in another.

The problem is that a lambda measurement goes up in both scenarios.

A bad ground could possible do it.
How is your engine to battery ground?
How is you fuel pump ground?


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Selkec said:


> I wouldn’t count on a high output alt fixing this issue as a 370 amp alt did nothing to make my exact same issue better.


This is one of the only things holdings me back from just buying the alternator!



Selkec said:


> I hope you figure it out as I have done everything and added everything possible besides supercap banks which I am tempted to try now


Have you considered one of those 20 or 50 farad capacitors like the ones Rockville has? I'm not sure what people's opinions are on those..


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Holmz said:


> Particularly if the alternator takes a while to say to itself, "whoa I need to crank up the output"... then the sub beat can come-n-go with the alternator always playing catch up.


Perhaps in that case a combination of the alternator and high farad capacitor would be necessary..



Holmz said:


> Maybe try to figure out what part is being affected.
> 
> The spark plug coils are either a coil or a coil on plug, or coil park.
> They often are programed to have more dwell with lower voltage.
> ...


These are all good points. I'm not even sure where to start to check all of those. I have still yet to go find the engine ground wire on my truck!

I am planning to do the Big 3 upgrade and am ordering wires for that as a next step and replace all the power and speaker wires due to corrosion on those.

Even if I found a sensor or coil, etc. being a problem, unless it was defective, I would probably still need to supply more power to resolve it anyways. 

How exactly is the ground wire related to the vehicle's electrical? When I had the amps only on the second battery positive, I just had the ground to chassis and remote wire connected to the truck. Why did I still get the jerking and lights dimming? Due to the ground or remote?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Jasdip said:


> ...
> These are all good points. I'm not even sure where to start to check all of those. I have still yet to go find the engine ground wire on my truck!
> ...


Put a jumper cable on the block to the battery... zip tie out of the way of belts...

If seems like it loss of power... but could we have missed something like stability control?
Example... the brakes coming because a sensor thinks that the vehicle,is yawning from either voltage or magnetic fields affecting a yaw sensor?



Jasdip said:


> ...
> Even if I found a sensor or coil, etc. being a problem, unless it was defective, I would probably still need to supply more power to resolve it anyways.
> ...


Maybe if it was a bad coil pack then you just replace that...
We would need to find what is causing the balking first. And how it is causing it. It most likely either voltage or a magnetic field... at least I cannot think of anything else?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Jasdip, I might try a xs power super bank. Or a cheaper version of a bank of super caps off eBay... from my experience I don’t feel like small caps like the Rockwell and others do enough to help voltage drops. They do filter out engine noise though. 
The super banks are hundreds if not thousands times more powerful that the traditional caps. You can start cars with the damn things. Lol. If they wouldn’t work to stop the issue we both have. Especially with me having a 370 amp 15v alternator nothing would stop it. I rarely even drop below 14v yet the issue still occurs. 
I’m gonna get on the vw forum and see if someone can tell me what sensors and things I can log with my obd device.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Edit: I read through a little more... Really hope this gets resolved


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Holmz said:


> Put a jumper cable on the block to the battery... zip tie out of the way of belts...


Is this just rule out a bad engine ground for testing so it is doubled up? Or does it serve another purpose?




Holmz said:


> If seems like it loss of power... but could we have missed something like stability control?
> Example... the brakes coming because a sensor thinks that the vehicle,is yawning from either voltage or magnetic fields affecting a yaw sensor?


I suppose the easiest way to figure out if the truck was applying the brakes might be to see if the brake lights come on from a following driver? Or maybe just pull the yaw sensor fuse and let it disable completely for testing?




Holmz said:


> Maybe if it was a bad coil pack then you just replace that...
> We would need to find what is causing the balking first. And how it is causing it. It most likely either voltage or a magnetic field... at least I cannot think of anything else?


I started researching how to test coil packs and spark plugs. I think I’ve figured out how to check the resistance on them and will give it a shot. However, I think I need to test if the voltage is dropping to them when the bass hits too so I’m going to try to check the connectors if it’s possible. Still researching.




Selkec said:


> Especially with me having a 370 amp 15v alternator nothing would stop it. I rarely even drop below 14v yet the issue still occurs.


My situation is a little different maybe, I actually do drop under 12v under heavy load. My alternator is also 150A (I believe) and my amplifiers alone draw 100A each. That’s 200A plus the vehicle’s electronics. I understand that you put 370A alternator but it didn’t help as well.

Also, I checked the resistance on some of my wires so far and will be doing more voltage testing today. So far I’ve found the following:

Capacitor ground wire: 0.3-0.5 ohms

Power wires to amp through “Y” connection from capacitor: both 0.2-0.3 ohms

Ground wires to amp through “Y” connection From capacitor: both 0.1-0.2 ohms

I noticed the capacitor to ground wire is a bit on the higher side for resistance but not sure if it’s enough to make a difference.

I did also pull it off the bolt it was under and notice that there wasn’t a flat surface behind it. See my image attached. I moved it to a new location and oddly enough, it seems like the RPM jerking as improved a bit. I also switched back from the second battery to capacitor since I had to modify quite a bit of stuff to keep it there (had temporary testing situation going).

EDIT: When I say I feel like it may have improved, that is improved from capacitor set up before which was worse than with second battery set up. It is more similar to the second battery setup now but with the capacitor I feel.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Jasdip said:


> I did also pull it off the bolt it was under and notice that there wasn’t a flat surface behind it. See my image attached. I moved it to a new location and oddly enough, it seems like the RPM jerking as improved a bit. I also switched back from the second battery to capacitor since I had to modify quite a bit of stuff to keep it there (had temporary testing situation going).
> View attachment 264344
> View attachment 264345


Looking at the condition of that ground point, I I wouldn't waste ANY time thinking that a yaw sensor is applying your brakes in order to compensate for the Hall effect caused by your subwoofer. LOL that's just nonsense.

That said, the the frame looks to be PAINTED, you need to grind or sand it down to BARE metal and also apply a large preferably copper washer to ensure good contact with the bare metal. You can even add a start type locking washer between the frame and copper so that the teeth dig into both the frame and copper washer.
Furthermore, the BOLT also looks like it is coated or painted, though I can't tell for suer, it might just be black oxide.

IMO, and that is NOT a good ground, though you ought to be able to turn it into one with a little elbow grease.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

If I put a large washer underneath so that it increases the surface area of contact then I’ll be ok with that spot? I’ll take a picture of where I moved it to which seems a lot cleaner. Although there is some coating there too which I should sand down.

That previous bolt definitely has some black coating on it.

is the resistance on the wire ok though? It doesn’t visually appear corroded or anything either.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Resistance of .2 ohm is OK...fix the ground point by sanding to bare frame. Replace the bolt IF you can easily, otherwise use the nut/washer to sandwich the wire terminal between two large copper washers while still adding another LARGE star type lock washer between the bare frame and the lower copper washer so that the teeth of the lock washer dig into the bare frame. 

That said, it even looks like that nut and washer are coated with something ???


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

seafish said:


> Resistance of .2 ohm is OK...fix the ground point by sanding to bare frame. Replace the bolt IF you can easily, otherwise use the nut/washer to sandwich the wire terminal between two large copper washers while still adding another LARGE star type lock washer between the bare frame and the lower copper washer so that the teeth of the lock washer dig into the bare frame.
> 
> That said, it even looks like that nut and washer are coated with something ???


The ground wire from capacitor to chassis has 0.3 to 0.5 ohms, the wires going into the amps are 0.2-0.3.

I’m going to send a picture of the new ground spot, I think it will be easier to sand that down and use that than going out to get those washers. Let me know your thoughts on that one.

The nut and washer could be coated too, kind of looks like it from the scratches on them.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Jumper was just for testing.

Using the fuse ratings of the amp give the maximum... but to what it actually draws requires a current measurement.
If you drawing a lot of current then a bigger alternator is needed. Is it bouncing down to 12V, or pretty steady at 12V?

I doubt that yaw control (if it even has it) would like the brake lights... there is usually a switch on the Pedel for that. I would pull fuse and try it, then put the fuse back in after the test.

I would try a junk yard and get the connectors for the coil pack, and maybe a coil pack...
Then rig up some way to supply separate power?
But I would try and measure the real current draw with a clamp meter before looking at the coils packs,


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Holmz said:


> Using the fuse ratings of the amp give the maximum... but to what it actually draws requires a current measurement.
> If you drawing a lot of current then a bigger alternator is needed. Is it bouncing down to 12V, or pretty steady at 12V?


I did some testing with a clamp meter for current today. I’m not sure if it was done incorrectly or not but I set it to AC 400A and I was getting the reading jumping all over but it looks like it was generally staying under 20A.

Here are some results for the voltage tests I can do more if needed:

1. Sound system turned completely down:

14.7v at the battery, fuse box under the hood, rear fuse box, and capacitor. These locations were all consistent with each other for the tests below as well.

2. Sound system high volume:

Voltage drops to around 12v and stays around there. It recovers to a higher number when the there is a break in the bass but comes back down when the bass starts hitting again.

3. Sound system turned all the way down but multiple accessories on (fan full, heat up, front two heated seats on with rear heated seats off, heating steering wheel on, heated windshield on, everything else off like wipers, rear fan, and sound system):

Consistently at 12v, even dropped to slightly under 12v momentarily.

4. Accessories on as indicated above and sound system turned up, not even near full volume:

Didn’t check voltage but sound started clipping out (including factory speakers) so I turned it down before damaging anything.

Looks like the truck can’t maintain a consistent even 13v+ with only the accessories on.

P.S. I mentioned in a previous post that it appeared to be better after moving the ground; however, I noticed today that it was about the same. It’s possible that less accessories were on the last time, I don’t know



Holmz said:


> I doubt that yaw control (if it even has it) would like the brake lights... there is usually a switch on the Pedel for that. I would pull fuse and try it, then put the fuse back in after the test.


I’ll try pulling the fuse for this but not spend too much time on it.




Holmz said:


> I would try a junk yard and get the connectors for the coil pack, and maybe a coil pack...
> Then rig up some way to supply separate power?
> But I would try and measure the real current draw with a clamp meter before looking at the coils packs,


Rigging up a way to supply power and then closing the hood and going for a drive will be difficult. The battery supplies the fuse box under the hood which supplies the ECM which sends the signal to the coil pack from what I found out. Sending the power separately and signal from ECM separately and creating a new connector seems very difficult for all 8 of them especially. I don’t think that will be feasible for me.

Maybe the information above will point to something new?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

I would put that clamp meter right around the subwoofer amp.
How big of a wire is going to the back?
Is the extra battery/capacitor in the back near the amp?

It needs to be pulling a lot more than 20A for the voltage to drop like that....

Maybe take the jumpers and do an end run from the front to the amp/capacitor and see if that changes anything. Since you can test it parked, then this should work...
And try to find some music with more extended bass to get a measurement that is more "steady State"?

That voltage going low should be addressed before the yaw... which only belongs here to be thorough.


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

If you clamped at the power wire the setting should be DC on the meter.
Try again ....


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Ground resistance should never be more than .5. If you have a bad ground it will back up the system so to speak. Electricity has to follow continuously. If it's getting "clogged up" by a lot of resistance then it will slow the entire flow of electricity. An alternator will not fix voltage drop. Batteries regulate voltage. You don't have enough or draw from the system to worry about it.

Your most recent test indicates you have a problem not related to the stereo system. Maybe the stereo just amplifies the system.


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## Sine Swept (Sep 3, 2010)

Curious, does this Rover have an aluminum factory harness?

Have you ran a dedicated ground wire from engine/chassis to rear amp connections?


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Holmz said:


> I would put that clamp meter right around the subwoofer amp.
> How big of a wire is going to the back?
> Is the extra battery/capacitor in the back near the amp?


I put the power wire from the battery to capacitor in between the clamp loop close to the capacitor. It is a 1/0 gauge wire. The capacitor is about right beside the amp




Holmz said:


> It needs to be pulling a lot more than 20A for the voltage to drop like that....


That is what I thought too which is why I wasn’t sure if something was incorrectly done.




Holmz said:


> Maybe take the jumpers and do an end run from the front to the amp/capacitor and see if that changes anything. Since you can test it parked, then this should work...


You mean from the battery negative to the capacitor negative? I don’t have jumpers long enough to reach the front of the truck to the capacitor in the back. It’s a full size Range Rover..




lurch said:


> If you clamped at the power wire the setting should be DC on the meter.
> Try again ....


This is what I thought too but when I spoke to an electrician, he said it would work either way. This is what I thought may have been giving me the wrong reading. My meter didn’t have DC amps on it. I will try get a hold of another one and check again.




Theslaking said:


> Ground resistance should never be more than .5. If you have a bad ground it will back up the system so to speak. Electricity has to follow continuously. If it's getting "clogged up" by a lot of resistance then it will slow the entire flow of electricity.


The 0.3 to 0.5 is just the resistance on the amplifier ground wire itself from end to end when it is disconnected. Can you suggest which various points I should include for the resistance tests and how to do those tests (eg where to put the probes)?

Due to the truck dropping to 12v with the sound system even turned down, it seems like the “clogging” might be somewhere else, maybe battery ground (even though it visually looks great) or engine to ground perhaps? I’ll try jumper cable from engine to battery negative and battery negative to chassis which should be easy enough.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

Jasdip said:


> Can you suggest which various points I should include for the resistance tests


Test at the point where you connect your ground to the car. Take one probe to your negative terminal take the other to the grounding point. You'll probably need an extension. Play your music loud. If no voltage, likely a good ground. I say likely because it's possible to seem like a good ground but not be however if it seems bad it is.

I honestly think it's one of the grounds in the engine bay. All you done says it has nothing to do with the aftermarket system.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Theslaking said:


> Test at the point where you connect your ground to the car. Take one probe to your negative terminal take the other to the grounding point. You'll probably need an extension. Play your music loud. If no voltage, likely a good ground. I say likely because it's possible to seem like a good ground but not be however if it seems bad it is.


So I connect one probe to battery negative and other one to where my capacitor’s negative is connected to the truck in the back. I check to make sure there is no voltage, correct?




Theslaking said:


> I honestly think it's one of the grounds in the engine bay. All you done says it has nothing to do with the aftermarket system.


I am going to try putting a jumper cable from engine directly to battery negative. Also, battery negative to chassis. Also, both at the same time. If I am still getting voltage drop when turning accessories all on, could it be some of the accessories having bad ground and Causing the voltage drop?


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Sine Swept said:


> Curious, does this Rover have an aluminum factory harness?
> 
> Have you ran a dedicated ground wire from engine/chassis to rear amp connections?


I’m not sure which harness you are referring to. This 2001 model didn’t have the aluminum body though, it is steel.

I will be running a jumper cable (daisy chain probably) from the battery negative to the capacitor negative and see if the voltage still drops. I will also try to get a DC clamp meter to check current again.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Theslaking said:


> Test at the point where you connect your ground to the car. Take one probe to your negative terminal take the other to the grounding point. You'll probably need an extension. Play your music loud. If no voltage, likely a good ground. I say likely because it's possible to seem like a good ground but not be however if it seems bad it is.
> 
> I honestly think it's one of the grounds in the engine bay. All you done says it has nothing to do with the aftermarket system.


I use a small 22ga with with a banana for the DMM and go all the way to the battery... that does the ground gonnextion, the chassis, and any chassis to the battery...

And that holistic measurement would be inline with proving Thelaking's theory.

Repeat the deal on the positive side, and ideally using a not-too-loud test tone.



Jasdip said:


> I’m not sure which harness you are referring to. This 2001 model didn’t have the aluminum body though, it is steel.
> 
> I will be running a jumper cable (daisy chain probably) from the battery negative to the capacitor negative and see if the voltage still drops. I will also try to get a DC clamp meter to check current again.


Those are not cheap... but once you are set up with the cables you could always seek out a sparky who has a meter.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Update after some testing today:

My clamp meter was AC only and I got a DC meter and got correct readings now. I tried about 3-4 different music tracks during testing.

First off, I found out that when the voltage was dropping to 12v with only the accessories turned on (music off), it was the heated windshield sucking most of that up. With that turned off, It went from low to mid 12’s to 14v. I tried putting a jumper cable from the engine block to battery negative while heated windshield was on but it didn’t make a difference. I think it is safe to assume that the factory electrical is ok and not draining the voltage.

With the music volume high (at or near max), I noticed an amperage draw usually between about 60-90ish Amps but as high as about 120A. 

With music on high volume with a lot of bass, the voltage dropped to around 12.5v today. When revving the truck up to about 1500-2000 RPM, the voltage increased to about 14.5v and even hit 15v when there was a break in the bass output. Note: when I’m driving and the jerking happens, I’m at 1500-2500 RPM.

What’s strange is that the jerking motion while driving happens fairly badly for example during the song Unforgettable by French Montana, when the repeated beat/bass hits (not the constant bass part); however, the voltage reading during that time is around 13.8v and the Amps draw is low too at around 40A. It’s not constant bass when that happens but just repeated short thumps. During the constant bass part, it hits about 110A being drawn.

I connected two jumper cables together to get from the battery negative to the back and did a resistance test from negative on capacitor to the jumper cable (battery negative with truck turned off), the reading jumped around the settled at 0. The resistance with the truck started and music on was still 0. Strange thing is the on just that ground wire connecting the capacitor negative to the chassis was showing 0.3 to 0.5 ohms when disconnected and tested alone. So I’m not sure if this was correct.

Capacitor negative to battery negative (jumper cable) with music on low showed about 1mv. Music on high volume showed about 162mv. I suppose this means the sound system ground is good?

I also turned the gain down on the amps by about 1 “line notch” putting it to just less than half way. It didn’t seem to make much of a difference. I even turned the subwoofer setting on the factory head unit all the way to 0 which turned the subwoofers off completely, but when it’s at even the very first setting, it still has the jerking problem (not AS bad).

I am going to try to turn the gains down further tomorrow and also try the second battery again. This time I am going to not ground the second battery to the chassis so the aftermarket sound system circuit stays within itself. Last time the battery was still grounded to the chassis while the amps were fed from only that second battery (main battery was disconnected from the second). This HAS to work! If not, it is only the speaker level input taken from the rear subwoofer that is still connected to the after market sound system which shouldn’t affect it I think.

I am very tempted to go with the high output alternator but just don’t want to waste all that money for no reason.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Use the 0.162 V and the resistance of the wire resistance from the net, and see if the measured current jives with the voltage drop.

I think in your case that the alternator rated around 130-150 and the measurement being around... coupled with the windscreen heater probably be worth using... sort or points to either using a lower volume or upgrading the alternator.
I cannot say show us proof, because you just did.

Possibly as important as a higher output, is that it reacts fast enough. But you are using more amps than it is rated for, so you need to find that energy somewhere... 

It seems like you have a reason to shove innthe alternator, or go to using less power, or moving to a higher gain box.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Holmz said:


> Use the 0.162 V and the resistance of the wire resistance from the net, and see if the measured current jives with the voltage drop.
> 
> I think in your case that the alternator rated around 130-150 and the measurement being around... coupled with the windscreen heater probably be worth using... sort or points to either using a lower volume or upgrading the alternator.
> I cannot say show us proof, because you just did.
> ...


Any recommendations for reputable high output alternators for 2011 Range Rover full size?

what did you mean by “going to higher gain box”?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

If the sub is sealed, and you want to keep the same SPL, then going ported would reduce the required watts.
If it is ported, then going to bandpass will do the same...

^With other side effects.^

An alternator is probably easier, and the measurements indicate that you need more amperes than the alternator is rated to supply.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

I would rather keep it a sealed box. Making a new box wouldn't be worth the trouble over replacing the alternator I think. I'm going to try a couple of more things, otherwise look into the alternator.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Well I am usually pretty adamant about not doing something without a proven reason to do it. Like the alternator without knowing what you are asking is more than it can supply.

It would be hard for me to now go against my own advice, and say to test something else, or not act upon the results of the test.

But it would interesting to know what thos either things are that you are thinking of trying.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Believe me, I don’t want to have to have to buy an alternator either, that’s not going to be cheap! I will probably get rid of this truck within a year or two I think anyways or give it to family who won’t use that sound system. A high output alternator would’ve made more sense a few years ago.

I was going to try these things from my last post:

1. I am going to try to turn the gains down further just to see what happens are a very low level. It should technically eliminate it at very low levels but even minor disruptions wouldn’t make sense at those levels.

2. Try the second battery again. This time I am going to not ground the second battery to the chassis so the aftermarket sound system circuit stays within itself. Last time the battery was still grounded to the chassis while the amplifiers were fed from only that second battery (main battery was disconnected from the second). This HAS to work! If not, it is only the speaker level input taken from the rear subwoofer that is still connected to the after market sound system which shouldn’t affect it I think. However, I was told that the ground sounding make a difference anyways.
I kind of want #2 to not solve the problem. This could then point to the line input (which would be strange) or the possibility of vibration causing something weird.. nothing else would have any connection to the truck.

3. I suppose if #2 doesn’t work then lastly I could try a different source to send the music to the subwoofers such as an iPhone or laptop? Then other than remote wire turning on the amps, there is nothing left. (I guess I could change the remote wire to somewhere else too as a last last resort lol)


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## Bman427 (Feb 21, 2020)

I didnt read all of the responses but I would guess its the fuel pump that is seeing a voltage drop. I bet if you hooked up a fuel pressure guage its dropping off at high volume and under a load. Not sure how to measure the voltage at the pump when that is happening... but if your losing fuel pressure that's what is happening. 

Kenne Bell makes a fuel pump voltage regulator that is primarily used for per performance (forced induction) called a Boost a Pump. That would be a quick easy fix and you can get them on ebay used for $100-$150. 

Not sure that's it... but would make sense given your description of the problem...


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

I do think it’s something related to the fuel entering the engine properly but I am not sure where and how to test the voltage for the related items. I got as far as looking into testing the voltage going into the coil packs but it was getting pretty complicated. I suppose if it was a fuel pressure issue then it would probably be present at idle too but maybe not as obvious perhaps.


Does boost a pump just regulate voltage or will it inject more fuel all the time and/or burn more fuel too?

I thought I’d try what’s in my last post first and if it doesn’t resolve the problem then I can get back to the complicated stuff. But then again, if I had a high output alternator, would that not keep the voltage more stable too?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Bman427 said:


> I didnt read all of the responses but I would guess its the fuel pump that is seeing a voltage drop. I bet if you hooked up a fuel pressure guage its dropping off at high volume and under a load. Not sure how to measure the voltage at the pump when that is happening... but if your losing fuel pressure that's what is happening.
> 
> Kenne Bell makes a fuel pump voltage regulator that is primarily used for per performance (forced induction) called a Boost a Pump. That would be a quick easy fix and you can get them on ebay used for $100-$150.
> 
> Not sure that's it... but would make sense given your description of the problem...


Yeah fuel pressure and coil pack dwell usually have voltage related compensation in high end ECU tuning.

Either one should show up as lambda increasing whether at idle or under load.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

So I basically need to do a fuel pressure check at idle with music loud and voltage dropping.

I’m sure the voltage would be dropping at the pump anyways since it drops at all the fuse boxes already, so that might not be too helpful..

Now just need to get my hands on a fuel pressure gauge..

Lets say the fuel pressure is dropping, wouldn’t I still need a high output alternator anyways? Even if the voltage regulator on the fuel pump works, aren’t the other electronics and computers still being starved of power and at risk of failure?


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## Bman427 (Feb 21, 2020)

Again just my guess. I think your fuel pump is in its last legs. How many miles on the vehicle? 

Your motor uses what fuel it needs regardless of what size injector or fuel pump you install. . Given the tuning is correct. Adding a boost a pump would not effect mileage and it only stabilizes the voltage the fuel pump gets.

You are not going to be able to see an issue at idle. I'm not familiar with your vehicle but just as a sanity check I would want to see what the fuel pressure is doing when the power is being cut. I'm almost certain it's a fuel issue, not ignition. If it was ignition (coils) I would think you would see issues not only under load. 

I also do not think a bigger alternator would correct the issue. A few ways to check the fuel pressure... install a temporary guage, a conventional guage or check and see if an Auto Meter dash link will pick up fuel pressure on your vehicle. It plugs into to your OBII port and reads the oem sensors. Call a mechanic and ask them what they would charge to check fuel pressure, any decent mechanic should be able to verify this easily. If you can access the fuel pump wiring harness you could run some test leads and have a friend watch the voltage being sent when power is being sent .. your fuel pump is most likely inside the fuel tank. Sometimes the harness can be fairly easy to get to though. 

I am not a mechanic by trade, just an ex drag racer that has done about everything you can do to a car ..lol.


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## Bman427 (Feb 21, 2020)

I'm going off the assumption you said there has been no issue for years. If you are seeing a voltage drop across the whole car then that's a different story 

How many amps is your stereo drawing from the alternator? Can you alternator handle it? It might not be the fuel pump but its fairly easy to eliminate it as being the issue


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

A lambda meter should show fuel going down even at idle. And every tuning shop has one to shove up a tail pipe.

You will not likely see the fuel pressure decreasing during a sub woofer thump by eye.
I would looking at the injector's response as it is a function of the voltage to its coil, which looks a lot like a subwoofer coil. 

Seriously... If you are only going to keep it for a year, then just lower the sub volume, and move on.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Isn't a car sposed to jump around when you get your subs set up right?  Plus I wouldn't take all this **** about a range rover. It's not like you're driving a Jeep LOL.

I haven't read the entire thread, just the first page, so sorry if I'm repeating what someone else has said. But I just had an install done in my turbo diesel Mitsubishi challenger that included three Hertz SPL Show HP802 Amps under a false floor in the back of the station wagon end which is a long way from the battery and alternator. Max current draw 100 Amps each. I have no idea if they get close to that, they will each put out 330 RMS per channel into 4ohms and they are dialed back a little so some drunk dickhead doesn't jump into the car and turn them up to 11 and fry my voice coils as my subs are rated at 200 continuous and front and rear splits 150 continuous. Now despite having the biggest heavy duty battery I can get in this car that's only 6 months old my installer insisted on a 2nd battery behind the panel past the rear wheel arch and all the regulating electrics to go with it so I have a fully functional 2 battery system. He actually wanted to rip out the lead acid battery and put 2 lithiums in but I'd just paid $350 for a new battery so maybe I'll do that next time a battery dies. Now in Australia lotsa 4WDs with stock stereos have dual battery systems cos you don't want to be 1000 km away from the nearest battery supplier in the middle of a desert surrounded by the ten most deadly snakes species in the world and have your only battery fail  But anyway my point is it might not be the physical/mechanical impact of the subs. It might be the current drawn by the amps. I think that's much more likely. Cheers, Sam

EDIT oh and my installer also specializes in proper off road vehicles and does a lot of work on Toyota landcruisers and hiluxes and vehicles that are really designed to take you out into the middle of nowhere and back and actually do that, and vehicles that people drive across deserts and the outback in Australia where the closest thing to a road is some tyre tracks the last person left 5 years ago, or 1000 km of sand dunes with no tyre tracks, dry salt lakes that never end or the savannah where the grass comes up higher than the window sills, not just the soccer mum's SUV that parking on the lawn is considered off road  .


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## Bman427 (Feb 21, 2020)

That is exactly what I think is happening... I think the changing (excessive)current draw from the amps has shortened the life of the fuel pump or is preventing the fuel pump from getting the proper current/voltage under a high load. Not sure what else it could be but if what I am saying is happening, the description of the issue would match the OP's description....


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Bman427 said:


> That is exactly what I think is happening... I think the changing (excessive)current draw from the amps has shortened the life of the fuel pump or is preventing the fuel pump from getting the proper current/voltage under a high load. Not sure what else it could be but if what I am saying is happening, the description of the issue would match the OP's description....


It could also be the spark plugs, some part of the ignition, the coil, or anything else that ****s itself without enough current or voltage.


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## Bman427 (Feb 21, 2020)

I'm betting on a fuel issue.. Ive seen fuel issues on other cars due to voltage issues under load (wot). I've never seen voltage issues with the ignition system caused by car audio. Not saying its impossible, I just haven't seen it.... just my guess its surging due to a fuel shortage


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

*Vehicle Jerks [me off] to Subwoofer Beat While Accelerating*
I don't see your issue man 🤣


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Bman427 said:


> Again just my guess. I think your fuel pump is in its last legs. How many miles on the vehicle?


At about 130,000km (not miles)



Bman427 said:


> You are not going to be able to see an issue at idle. I'm not familiar with your vehicle but just as a sanity check I would want to see what the fuel pressure is doing when the power is being cut.


I did some searching, does this mean I would have to tape the gauge to my windshield and test while driving?

Also, the workshop manual for the truck says that my ECM drives:


Fuel injectors
Ignition coils
Main relay and fuel pump relay
Tank Leakage Detection (NAS)
Secondary Air Injection Pump
Secondary Air Injection valve
VCC Valves
Electrically heated thermostat
Air conditioning compressor (relay drive).

The ECM provides other systems with information regarding the:


Engine speed
Driver demand
ATC request
Automatic Transmission
Fuel used
Auxiliary cooling fan.

Since I already know that the fuse box supplying the ECM is also dropping in voltage, couldn't it simply be that due to the lack of voltage that the fuel pump is not getting the proper signal? Therefore, not a fault fuel pump but back to the lack of voltage issue? Or any of the above listed parts for that matter.



Bman427 said:


> How many amps is your stereo drawing from the alternator? Can you alternator handle it? It might not be the fuel pump but its fairly easy to eliminate it as being the issue


The amps have a maximum draw of 100A each (x 2). During my testing, I saw them drawing upto about 120A combined. But it wasn't that high during certain parts of music that still causes the jerking motion. The alternator I believe is 150A.



Holmz said:


> You will not likely see the fuel pressure decreasing during a sub woofer thump by eye.


If it fluctuates during a steady increase in RPM then this may be true and hard to determine from the gauge.



Holmz said:


> Seriously... If you are only going to keep it for a year, then just lower the sub volume, and move on.


Last resort would be the alternator, then quit. I have to go veryyy low (almost off for the subs) for it to eliminate and even with a bit there at the lower volumes, there is something going on and I just don't want to damage the vehicle's electrical system or something else.



captainbuff said:


> *Vehicle Jerks [me off] to Subwoofer Beat While Accelerating*
> I don't see your issue man 🤣


Probably could've chosen a better term but it ended up being that and now I have to see it through loll


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

There is no better term for change of acceleration... the official term is jerk.

Most motorsports use dataloggers, as it is difficult to look at a garage 100 times and seconds and remember the numbers, and drive.

You either need to decide to fix it, or decide to avoid that much bass and just sell it.
Fixing it means you need to know what to fix... voltage drop is a solid correlation with jerk.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Holmz said:


> There is no better term for change of acceleration... the official term is jerk.
> 
> Most motorsports use dataloggers, as it is difficult to look at a garage 100 times and seconds and remember the numbers, and drive.
> 
> ...


Just an update, I did some further testing and when my second battery is disconnected from the main battery, the jerking does not happen. I previously said that it did and it made no sense to me but during the last test (which I verified a second time), it did not happen. This makes more sense now. This was my test #2 from my post #113 in this thread. The second battery being grounded to the truck this time was fine and still no jerking. Therefore, the vibration from the subwoofers is not the problem.

Although this issue was eliminated when I tried the second battery in place of the capacitor, I was reading around online about how to test capacitors if they are working. I read that I should connect the capacitor to the main battery, let it charge for about 10 min, check voltage (should be around 12.x), wait 10 min, check voltage again. If voltage drops then capacitor is no good. Once I plugged the capacitor (1 farad) in for 10 minutes, disconnected it, then checked the voltage, it was about 0.5v on one of them and the same test gave about 0.5mv on the other spare capacitor I tried. Is this test done correctly and are my capacitors garbage? I disconnected the capacitors and tested with the power wire directly to the amps and the issue is still the same without the extra load of the capacitors and battery.

Should I be trying a new maybe 4 farad capacitor? I suppose this was one of the things that must've been working (it was about 5 years old) when I first got this truck and had no problems..

I still have the corroded wires which haven't been replaced yet.

I'm actively looking for a high output alternator for my truck which isn't easy to find. I've only found one option so far which is about $840 CAD shipped to me from the US plus any brokerage, duties, taxes at the border plus install!


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Selkec said:


> I hope you figure it out as I have done everything and added everything possible besides supercap banks which I am tempted to try now


So I just ordered the 17V 567 Farad Maxwell capacitor bank from Amazon.. arrives this Friday hopefully.. let’s see what happens lol


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## captainbuff (Mar 11, 2017)

Jasdip said:


> Probably could've chosen a better term but it ended up being that and now I have to see it through loll


Mate...apologies. Just trying to have a bit of a chuckle; didn't want to denigrate your post in any way.
Peace


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

I received the Maxwell 567 Farad 17v supercapacitor and installed in my truck. The one I ordered from Amazon looks like a knock off product to me; however, I will try to verify its authenticity through Maxwell if I can. It is the . Nevertheless, I hooked it up and here is what happened:

I connected the capacitor with the circuit to the front battery turned off and my my truck turned off.
Once all connected, I activated the circuit breaker to complete the circuit (truck still off).
All the lights in my truck immediately dimmed down and after about 2 seconds or so the circuit breaker tripped. I checked the voltage on the capacitors and it was at about 2.0v (started at almost 0v). I didn't have a resistor to slowly charge and felt it was slowly charging and continued.
I switched the circuit on again and same thing but this time it came up to 4v. Then same thing up to 6v. 
The last time I switched it on, it went up to the battery voltage around 12.6v or so. I was satisfied that the capacitor bank was now charged.

The results were as follows:

I went for a drive and tested the music at high volumes, I realized that the jerking was greatly reduced. It is still there but it has improved significantly. However, when I did voltage tests, the front battery voltage drops down to about 12.6v and at the rear it came down to about 12.3v. Therefore, the voltage readings don't seem to have improved very much. Correct me if I am wrong but, I am guessing this means that alternator is maxed out and the voltage is coming from the main battery?

Supercapacitor Tests:

Once I finished the testing, I tested the capacitor's ability to hold charge. With the circuit connected to the main battery, the capacitor was showing 12.65v. Once I disconnected the main battery (and the amps) from the capacitor, it jumped up to 12.76v. Approximately every 2 minutes after that for the next 20 minutes, the voltage dropped by about .01v. 

There was a loss on average of:

0.24v per hour during the first 10 minutes
0.24v per hour during the first 20 minutes
0.174v per hour during the first 1 hour and 40 minutes
0.08v per hour during the first 11 hours and 35 minutes

If I take the average during the first 11.5 hours, I am losing about 1.92v per 24 hours. Would this potentially drain my battery if the truck is left off for a few days?

Also of concern is that if I disconnect the circuit in the case that I won't be driving for a few days, I have to "pump" the capacitors but up with the circuit breaker since they trip the circuit, this is a bit awkward to have to do and I don't want to damage anything either or drain the main battery in the process. Is it safe to do this with the truck started (i.e. even higher voltage going through than with the battery alone and truck off)?

Another issue is trying to build some proper box to safely protect that capacitor. Would an wood or MDF box suffice or not a good idea?

I am waiting for my new set of wires to come in to replace all of the corroded ones and will report back on what happens with those replaced.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

I may be mistaken but a capacitor should charge up to whatever your alternator is putting out. So if the alternator puts out 14.7v then the cap should charge up to 14.7v A good working cap will take the charge voltage your putting into it. Something isn’t right if it’s not taking the alternators voltage. Then again I suppose the batteries could possibly be draining it down somehow


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Selkec said:


> I may be mistaken but a capacitor should charge up to whatever your alternator is putting out. So if the alternator puts out 14.7v then the cap should charge up to 14.7v A good working cap will take the charge voltage your putting into it. Something isn’t right if it’s not taking the alternators voltage. Then again I suppose the batteries could possibly be draining it down somehow


When the truck is running, the capacitor does go up to the alternator's voltage. When I said 12.65v while the circuit is connected to the battery, that was with the truck turned off. I'm guessing the capacitor levels itself out with the battery's resting voltage of 12.65v.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

I have yet to fix my car bucking to the bass. I was wondering what if a diode based battery isolator was installed? This would separate the front battery to let it work with the car and the rear battery’s To work the car audio. Since they are separated I would think the car should run as if there was no high power stereo system installed. Done get a diode isolator mixed up with a relay isolator. With a relay isolator when the car is running the batteries are not separated .

Anyone have thoughts on if this would work.
Or possibly a ultra capacitor bank like this pic?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Selkec said:


> I have yet to fix my car bucking to the bass. I was wondering what if a diode based battery isolator was installed? This would separate the front battery to let it work with the car and the rear battery’s To work the car audio. Since they are separated I would think the car should run as if there was no high power stereo system installed. Done get a diode isolator mixed up with a relay isolator. With a relay isolator when the car is running the batteries are not separated .


Wouldn't you want the alternator to supply current to the sound system while the vehicle is started? The alternator would supply higher amperage than the battery isolated wouldn't it? Also, it would have to work to charge that battery anyways since it would be getting drained while using the sound system at loud volumes.



Selkec said:


> Anyone have thoughts on if this would work.
> Or possibly a ultra capacitor bank like this pic?


I purchased the one from your previous amazon post! This one here:






Maxwell 17V 567Farad Super Capacitor Battery 12V Graphene car Audio Amplifier ultracapacitor Automotive Battery case: Amazon.ca: Electronics


Maxwell 17V 567Farad Super Capacitor Battery 12V Graphene car Audio Amplifier ultracapacitor Automotive Battery case: Amazon.ca: Electronics



www.amazon.ca





However, I have just come to realize that it is a knock off. There are a number of things on these that don't match the original capacitor's on Maxwell's website. I won't get into it all right now..

The one you posted isn't Maxwell either. In the Item Specifics you'll see it says Unbranded/Generic. The capacitors also don't say Maxwell on them. Below is a link to what they should look like:



https://www.maxwell.com/images/documents/K2_2_85V_DS_3000619EN_3_.pdf


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Yeah I know they are knock offs but what is really a knock off? Freakin XS uses yinlong and if we seen some lakes yinlong on eBay we would say that is also a knock off.
About the first response the isolator still
Let’s the alternator charge both batteries when the car is running. It just doesn’t let each battery run parallel. It separates them completely so the front battery would run the car and the rear battery the stereo. All while still charging both.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Selkec said:


> Yeah I know they are knock offs but what is really a knock off? Freakin XS uses yinlong and if we seen some lakes yinlong on eBay we would say that is also a knock off.


Well, I would call it a knock off and/or fraud if they're saying that the item is an authentic Maxwell when it is not. When paying $385 plus import fees and taxes, I expected the real deal.



Selkec said:


> Let’s the alternator charge both batteries when the car is running. It just doesn’t let each battery run parallel. It separates them completely so the front battery would run the car and the rear battery the stereo. All while still charging both.


I suppose this is probably the best bet in that case. To make it better, add a supercapacitor after the secondary battery maybe. In your case you have a high output alternator as well which can support the two batteries and the current flow as well. I don't have that option currently.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Yeah I would not be happy if I paid 385$ For maxwell and got knock off. Do you have pics of yours? I would have complained to Amazon and got a refund and got the one I posted for 230$ cheaper and almost the same specs.

I’m going to add that cap bank above sometime before using a diode isolator because I don’t want the voltage drop it causes.

you would think a 370amp15v alternator I wouldnt have these issues but damn VW cars can be picky


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Selkec said:


> Yeah I would not be happy if I paid 385$ For maxwell and got knock off. Do you have pics of yours? I would have complained to Amazon and got a refund and got the one I posted for 230$ cheaper and almost the same specs.


I tried to reach out to the seller first but he is just being a dick and offered a $50 CAD refund. Filing the complaint through Amazon next. You're right, if I'm getting a knock off, I'd rather get the one you posted for way cheaper.



Selkec said:


> you would think a 370amp15v alternator I wouldnt have these issues but damn VW cars can be picky


I know you have a voltage regulator and all, otherwise I would have thought that the alternator just isn't able to handle and adapt to the fluctuations as fast. Let me know if you do order that one off ebay and how it works out.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

I like to use the term "buccacki solutions" when referring to these problems.
It is sort of human nature to come across lots of solutions as an attempt to solve a problem... in the hope that one of the solutions covers the actual problem's cause.

If you are only keeping it a year, which would be 11 months now, then I would not do much.

One really needs to know what is issue, in order to find the optimal solution.
Right now we know that the thing is bucking/jerking when the voltage is low.
But the low voltage is NOT causing the jerking.
It is either fuel, spark, or brakes, or something being affected by the low voltage.

Whether it is supposed to work at that voltage or not is the question.
It could be a weak coil pack, or bad injector, or something else that is 2/3 failed.

It is going to a bit of work to isolate both batteries, so the question becomes... is it worth it.
But that should cure the effect, without knowing and understanding the problem.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Low voltage could be causing the issue because the fuel pump will not pump as much fuel with lower voltage. That is one thing something like a Kenne bell Boost-a-pump could fix. One thing it does is regulate the voltage going to the fuel pump.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Maybe it is the injectors and not the pressure?
How could one tell?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

One can’t tell. I’ve googled for months and have only found threads like this one with people having same issue and no one ever figures it out... I had a 80 mile drive today so I monitored the fuel pressure just to see. Set cruise control and had steady pressure even with really long drawn out bass. No pressure drop. Not even a single pound. Maybe next week it will get fixed because I am swapping out my group 34 Agm for a XS power d3100 I’m getting brand new for 225$. Also trading my small stinger spp680 to a friend for a brand new Odyssey group 31agm. Adding two 1/0 grounds from alternator to front battery negating, a second ground from negating to frame. And a second 1/0 power from alternator to battery. I have two 1/0 runs to the rear allready. Might one day add a ground from front to back. Going to Possibly add a small Maxwell supercap bank under the hood of it still jerks hoping maybe that will help it. And adding the big cap bank to the rear. This is the small one. I really hope someone figures this out


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## farfromovin (Mar 30, 2011)

Add a ground from front to back. You can’t have grounds that are too good. Think about it in general, you go huge with power wire, huge ground to chassis in the rear, and a huge big 3 or big 4 upgrade up front. Everything is great, except that chassis. I’d run a ground sufficient for everything in the rear all the way up front and tie into where your alternator grounds at on the chassis up front.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Selkec said:


> One can’t tell. I’ve googled for months and have only found threads like this one with people having same issue and no one ever figures it out... I
> ...


One would usually have some data logging on something like the inject, or flow checlmthe injectors.

Coils packs would be a similar deal... either motored in-situ, or removed and tested.

We assume it is either fuel or spark, but again... one needs to know exactly what causes bucking/jerking before they can try to figure out what is lying underneath that.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Selkec said:


> Maybe next week it will get fixed because I am swapping out my group 34 Agm for a XS power d3100 I’m getting brand new for 225$. Also trading my small stinger spp680 to a friend for a brand new Odyssey group 31agm.


Let us know if you notice any changes..



Selkec said:


> Going to Possibly add a small Maxwell supercap bank under the hood


Where in the setup would you add this in the front?



farfromovin said:


> I’d run a ground sufficient for everything in the rear all the way up front and tie into where your alternator grounds at on the chassis up front.


I wouldn't done this but I barely found room to squeeze the 1/0 gauge power wire to the front. Had to take out the passenger seat and pretty much every panel along the passenger side from the back, became quite the job.



Holmz said:


> Maybe it is the injectors and not the pressure?
> How could one tell?


I'm going to try to get into Land Rover in the next couple of weeks or so if possible and see if they can run some tests on the alternator, battery, coil packs, spark plugs, fuel injectors, and fuel pump. However, that may cost an arm and a leg lol


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Yeah, I’m going to add the small maxwell up front. Just got more 2/0 welding wire from wireandsupply.com I spoke with them and all their wire is 100% copper. You can get 3/0 cheaper than 1/0 car audio branded cable and free shipping.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Selkec said:


> Yeah, I’m going to add the small maxwell up front.


Are you going to add it between the alternator and battery?



Selkec said:


> Just got more 2/0 welding wire from wireandsupply.com I spoke with them and all their wire is 100% copper. You can get 3/0 cheaper than 1/0 car audio branded cable and free shipping.


I order a new set of all wires and distribution blocks from Knukonceptz and paid just over $30 USD for shipping to Canada on a 2-7 day service. I ordered on the April 19 and no updates on the tracking number since April 22. I reached out to Knukonceptz and literally the worst customer service ever. They just tell me that it's at Customs for clearance, I asked for them to follow up with the courier and they give me ******** responses and can't even do a simple follow up. I ordered the supercapacitor after those wires which shipped from China, cleared Customs, and arrived on the 27th. It's been almost two weeks these wires have apparently been sitting in Customs and they refuse to help me with anything. I even asked them to refund my order so I can order from somewhere else, and nothing.

The only difference with the welding cable is that it's not as flexible right? I heard it's pretty much the same otherwise too, aside from not being tinned copper. One thing I noticed is that wireandsupply.com 1/0 gauge cable says 1026 strands and Knukonceptz one says over 5000, does that matter?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Welding cable is more flexible.

In any case if you are only keeping it a year, then how much $ does you want to poor/pour into it?


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Well, I've been saying another year or so for a couple of years lol.. It runs well for the most part.. timing of getting rid of it depends on a some other things going on.. so, I could have it for a while.. I just don't want to damage something in the meanwhile as a result of the voltage drops and have it end up costing more than the fix might..


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

It is possible that one could put on a dyno, or shove a lambda meter up the tail pipe, if it balks at idle.
I could be difficult to tell if it is fuel or spark from lambda, but if it was spark at the least the exhaust would smell of fuel.

If it was neither fuelling or spark, then there is more chin scratching.

Measuring voltage between the engine black and battery maybe be useful.
The coil packs and injectors could be tied more to the blocks ground??
(Dunno)


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## farfromovin (Mar 30, 2011)

Jasdip said:


> Are you going to add it between the alternator and battery?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, knukonceptz almost never even sends email tracking info, you just go by their word it’s shipped. Also, they’ve screwed up my order more than once lately with the fuse sizes on distribution blocks. But, I love their stuff. With the welding cable vs audio cable, there’s plenty of youtube videos about it but basically audio cable is much more flexible and has many more strands which helps with the surface area as current travels on the surface of the copper. But, if you’re comparing 3/0 welding cable to 1/0 audio cable, my money says 3/0 will carry more juice before melting. But, most accessories are made for 1/0 so that’s what I use, overkill as it is for my small install anyway.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Holmz said:


> It is possible that one could put on a dyno, or shove a lambda meter up the tail pipe, if it balks at idle.
> I could be difficult to tell if it is fuel or spark from lambda, but if it was spark at the least the exhaust would smell of fuel.
> 
> If it was neither fuelling or spark, then there is more chin scratching.
> ...


Something I have noticed in the last while is that when I am idling, I feel/hear a smooth rumble (I have a Magnaflow exhaust system), then randomly there will be a slightly loud thump here and there.. This happen more when the truck is colder, so when first starting to drive in the morning or after work.. If I am outside behind the truck, you can hear this from the exhaust side as well.. It's not very persistent though throughout the drive, and I cannot reproduce it on demand usually... does that ring any bells in terms of the things you mentioned?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Jasdip said:


> Something I have noticed in the last while is that when I am idling, I feel/hear a smooth rumble (I have a Magnaflow exhaust system), then randomly there will be a slightly loud thump here and there.. This happen more when the truck is colder, so when first starting to drive in the morning or after work.. If I am outside behind the truck, you can hear this from the exhaust side as well.. It's not very persistent though throughout the drive, and I cannot reproduce it on demand usually... does that ring any bells in terms of the things you mentioned?


Yeah.

Can you make "random" correlate with the subwoofer volume?


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Holmz said:


> Yeah.
> 
> Can you make "random" correlate with the subwoofer volume?


no way, I would never hear or feel that over the subwoofers.. it doesn’t show in the RPM either at idle


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Maybe you do not hear it at idle?
- But under throttle load then when the subwoofer thumps it correlates with the jerk?

If you try it out of car with the doors shut, then maybe it would be worth a 1/2 minute test?
(To see if it also happens just at idle?)


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

“I could be difficult to tell if it is fuel or spark from lambda, but if it was spark at the least the exhaust would smell of fuel.”

my car always smells... it has a 103 octane tune with water/methanol injection. Anyways. What would one look for or watch in Lambda? I have zero misfires so doesn’t that prove my coils are firing correctly? I’m starting to think it’s my actual gas pedal. I hate the VW pedals. It has like 1/2” of Nothing then bam it goes and it is too sensitive. I think I’ll monitor the pedal position when this happens because I’ve always thought maybe it’s vibrating my foot back slightly. When I watched the fuel pressure the other day with cruise on I actually don’t think I could not feel it bucking. Which would also kind of point towards the pedal (for my situation)


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Selkec said:


> “I could be difficult to tell if it is fuel or spark from lambda, but if it was spark at the least the exhaust would smell of fuel.”
> 
> my car always smells... it has a 103 octane tune with water/methanol injection. Anyways. What would one look for or watch in Lambda? I have zero misfires so doesn’t that prove my coils are firing correctly? I’m starting to think it’s my actual gas pedal. I hate the VW pedals. It has like 1/2” of Nothing then bam it goes and it is too sensitive. I think I’ll monitor the pedal position when this happens because I’ve always thought maybe it’s vibrating my foot back slightly. When I watched the fuel pressure the other day with cruise on I actually don’t think I could not feel it bucking. Which would also kind of point towards the pedal (for my situation)


If the lambda is constant, then the fuel and the spark are both good.

If it is the peddle then that should show up on something that could be logged... or wriggle the wires, and maybe the bass is causing them to make some intermittent connection?

I think we are getting closer to finding causality...

Is it possible to monitor the voltage at the pedel or log that through the OBDII port?


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

Holmz said:


> Maybe you do not hear it at idle?
> - But under throttle load then when the subwoofer thumps it correlates with the jerk?
> 
> If you try it out of car with the doors shut, then maybe it would be worth a 1/2 minute test?
> (To see if it also happens just at idle?)


It would be very difficult to hear it from the back from the exhaust with the music up, but I will try listening for it from under the hood. First I need to hear it without the music to see what I'm listening for from under the hood. I'm also not sure if it happens at idle in Park, or just while in Drive (foot on brakes). I will look into that too. I'll let you know what I find.

Finding a lambda meter is gonna be a headache too lol but I will try..

My issue is definitely not a pedal issue since it happens on cruise control as well.. also, adding the capacitor made a difference and adding/removing secondary battery also affected it..


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Jasdip said:


> It would be very difficult to hear it from the back from the exhaust with the music up, but I will try listening for it from under the hood. First I need to hear it without the music to see what I'm listening for from under the hood. I'm also not sure if it happens at idle in Park, or just while in Drive (foot on brakes). I will look into that too. I'll let you know what I find.
> 
> Finding a lambda meter is gonna be a headache too lol but I will try..
> 
> My issue is definitely not a pedal issue since it happens on cruise control as well.. also, adding the capacitor made a difference and adding/removing secondary battery also affected it..


Staying on realistically achievable things, let's skip thoughts on lambda and coil packs, and injectors.

The idea of the "throttle position sensor" (TPS) and any "Mass Air Flow" (MAF) sensor, would indicate that those could be voltage sensitive... so maybe the capacitor needs to be near the ECU or some other place?

And if it only balks at mid throttle, and not at idle or full throttle, that would make some sense for a TPS... it would be harder for coils and injectors to stay working under more load.


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

It is nearly impossible for me to find space under the hood to place this supercapacitor.. To get it between the battery and ECU/ECM means it has to go under the hood and I'm already trying to be super careful how I protect this deadly looking thing lol.. Or would you suggest somewhere else?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

I think you would be better off seeing if there is something to be gleaned from logging an OBDII stream to see if the TPS is wriggling around.

We keep wanting to go right to solving the problem, but we are not yet certain as to what the problem actually is...

Once it is found, then maybe a smaller cap on one part will fix it all, or having something other than sport mode on the TP might do it?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

“Is it possible to monitor the voltage at the pedel or log that through the OBDII port”

I’m not sure but I may check it out today


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Well it could be the TPS, but the fact you hear a thump in the exhaust means a lot.
Is that well correlated?


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Installed a d3100 that I got new for 225$ last night. Glad I installed led strips under the hood. Made it easy to work at night.







Got it to fit barely! Anyways, I didn’t notice the car jerking when I just tested it out. Will test more after my doc appointment.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Had my alternator tested and it has bad diodes. Putting out over 4v AC! So that can’t be good! Probably what is causing my issues with the jerking and also with the alternator whine in the speakers. Ugh but at least I have found a problem to address finally


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## Jasdip (Jul 14, 2018)

So did the new battery fix your problem? Or was it still there and now you’re looking at the alternator? P.s. clean set up with the wires!

I’ve got my supercapacitor probably installed now in the back, it made a big difference to my jerking problem. It’s still not 100% gone but it definitely helped significantly. I don’t think I’ll spend much more time and money on this. I will however get the battery and alternator tested when I end up making my appointment at Land Rover. I’ll see what they say. The voltage drops are still there however under heavy load.


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