# What's up with this? Class disparity.



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

OK, so I was on the MECA site checking out points standings for my class and was humbled by the number of people in the 80s and 90s. I was thrilled to see that I was in the top ten of the bunch, but the disparity is significant. Then for grins I called up the scores for ModEx to see how I fared compared to my buddy Joe Wallis. Overall the numbers appear to be lower in ModEx than Mod, especially with that gorgeous 94.5 sitting at the top of the board in Modified.

I would have expected ModEx cars to score higher on average and have a higher peak score. What's the deal?

-Todd


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Todd, you would think that the ModEx guys would score higher, us Street guys are in the high 70's and pushing the 80 mark but none of us have hit it YET....


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I've wondered the same.

I think the real telling story would be how _the same judge_ ranks each type of car.

Looking at overall scores, IMO, is a wash. You need to look at trends. Different judges will score differently. It stinks, but that's just how it is when you have a human being a judge. Some judges are much more critical, whereas others are not as much. 
So, again, the real telling story will be how cars at the same event compare. 

I used to watch the top scores thing... I had an 86 my first show and I'm not on it. So, I don't know exactly how that works. My 2nd show I got a 73 (or something like that), and my 3rd show I got a 78.5. All different judges.

I've seen the case where a guy got a 95 or so, the next day get a 78. With NO changes to his system at all. Explain that.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

From looking at the rules the Modified class and ModEx class are very close in rules. The ability to mode the dash is the biggest difference I see that would make a difference. But at the level when you start modding the dash pads are just as easy and will get just as good or nearly the same results.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> I've wondered the same.
> 
> I think the real telling story would be how _the same judge_ ranks each type of car.
> 
> ...


True, But as long as it is consistent with in the class with the same judge it should be ok for that show. And as long as that judge stay true to his judging style all year.

But

That is why I love the top 30 money rounds. Then you see who has the best sounding cars. As all the top guys are put up against each other and the judges scores are averaged.


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Mod the dash, vent outside the vehicle, and extended frame rails.


My buddy's car is Focal sponsored and `pro-built in College Station, Texas`. It doesn't image and you can hear the crossover points. He's in ModEx because he added 2" to his seat rails in a Mustang (convertible). Outscores me handily and I wish I could tell you why.

I don't want to bash the way things are scored or judges or any of that. I was just wondering why a class that should allow you the modifications required to take it to the next level seems to underperform.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Again, are you comparing competitors at the same event?

I see it. Heck, I just got beat by 7.5 points last week by a guy in 'stock' class. I don't feel bad about it... he's cleaned the floor with just about everyone who's ever competed. He knows what to listen for and has a very great sounding car. He's had time to develop it through the years. I think he would be the first to tell you that experience is what really helps you take your car to the next level. It's a rare thing for someone to jump right in with little to no experience and start placing well; even if they do have advantageous to their install itself.
If you took the a newer guy, and gave him two cars: one for stock and one for modex and told him to go, I'm willing to bet the differences in scoring wouldn't be much different. He'd probably have a couple extra points, if that, but I doubt it would be vastly different, because at the end of the day he doesn't know exactly how to take advantage of his system's ability.

I think the real thing is regardless of the class, you still have the same goal. If you don't know exactly what to listen for and exactly how to make certain fixes, the install advantages won't help you.


I could be wrong, though. Just my $.02.


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

H-Audio - AKA - Here-I-Come said:


> From looking at the rules the Modified class and ModEx class are very close in rules. The ability to mode the dash is the biggest difference I see that would make a difference. But at the level when you start modding the dash pads are just as easy and will get just as good or nearly the same results.


Plus:
- The ability to vent drivers outside of the vehicle
- The ability to install a sub in the dash
- The ability to run pro audio processing units (Behringer, Rane, etc...)

ModEx actually has several advantages over Modified IMHO. However, like most things in car audio the more intricate things become the harder it is to get everything dialed in perfectly. That might be why you're seeing lower scores in a class like ModEx compared to Modified or even ModStreet. I know a few ModStreet cars that would kill my car and I'm in Modified. Just my .02 on the subject.

Zach


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Boostedrex said:


> Plus:
> - The ability to vent drivers outside of the vehicle
> - The ability to install a sub in the dash
> - The ability to run pro audio processing units (Behringer, Rane, etc...)
> ...


Furthermore, I wonder how many of the people in modex are taking advantage of all these aspects? I know I'm not. I'm only venting to the outside. The rest of my car would be classed in modified, I believe. 

I definitely understand what the OP is saying, but I don't think there's a simple answer for it.


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

You're right Erin. Except for your AP midbass, you would be in Mod. And I'm so glad you aren't. LOL!! 

I'd like to step up to ModEx, but I won't do it just because I would not be taking advantage of enough perks to make it worth while IMHO. That and I honestly don't think that anyone in MECA is going to beat Scott Welch in ModEx. That car is a MONSTER!!!!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

good to hear about Scott's car. Gives me something to shoot for. 

I was hoping Steve Cook would come back, but I'm not sure if he is or not this year. That truck is a beast. Hopefully things pick up and we have a large turnout at Finals this year. If you CA guys make it out, I think it'll be friggin' awesome!


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

If I get a bid to Nationals then I plan on making the journey out. Last I heard, several of the CA guys are planning to go out.

But Regionals is first on my list. Still need 10 points to qualify for that event.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

how many points do you have to have for regionals and finals?

I thought you only needed 40 for finals. You've already got 30, right (I just checked). Didn't know you had to qualify for regionals. Guess I need to read up, because I've only got 23pts.


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> how many points do you have to have for regionals and finals?
> 
> I thought you only needed 40 for finals. You've already got 30, right (I just checked). Didn't know you had to qualify for regionals. Guess I need to read up, because I've only got 23pts.


Maybe I'm backwards. I thought you needed 40 points for Regionals and a Top 2-3 finish in Regionals to get a bid to Nationals. Maybe I need to do some more reading myself.  And yes, I do have 30 points with a 2X event and a 3X event in the next 30 days so I should be ok.


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Isn't there something in there about 2-seat judging as well? I thought you had to have competed in one or two for Nationals.

Anyone in that category? Two seat car?

I know I'm not... lol


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Here we go. Right out of the 2010 rule book.

"*11. Competitors must be MECA members and obtain a minimum of 40 points to qualify for State Champion and World Finals
Soundfest. The member must compete in at least 2 events with the vehicle intended for World Finals Soundfest competition.*"

At least 2 events in the car that you plan on taking to Nationals, not SQ2 at 2 events. And it does look like 40 points qualifies you for both Regionals and Nationals. Nice!!


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Boostedrex said:


> Here we go. Right out of the 2010 rule book.
> 
> "*11. Competitors must be MECA members and obtain a minimum of 40 points to qualify for State Champion and World Finals
> Soundfest. The member must compete in at least 2 events with the vehicle intended for World Finals Soundfest competition.*"
> ...



Agreed, but if you keep reading...
"D. Sound Quality Contests and Classes

5. SQ2 will be an open class, with sound quality score sheets for driver and passenger seats judged simultaneously. Both score sheets
are added together. Highest score wins. *MECA Members must compete in two (2) SQ2 contests to qualify for State Championships*and SQ2 entry at Finals."

Do you interpret this differently?
They may have intended to say "If you want to compete SQ2 at the state or Finals level, you must have first previously competed in 2 other SQ2 events", but it isn't what they said.


----------



## David_Edwards (Nov 12, 2008)

This makes me miss my days of playing in ModEx class.....aaahhhhh the memories.


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

highly said:


> Agreed, but if you keep reading...
> "D. Sound Quality Contests and Classes
> 
> 5. SQ2 will be an open class, with sound quality score sheets for driver and passenger seats judged simultaneously. Both score sheets
> ...


That is what they're saying. "to qualify for State Championships and *SQ2 entry* at Finals." Or at least that's how I read it. I think we're on the same page here, just seeing it differently. That way you don't get someone who competes in 1 class all season, then re-does their install and compete in a totally different class at Finals. They didn't really "earn their spot" in Finals if they weren't in that class for at least part of the season. You know?


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

I take it to intend to mean the same thing, but considering where in the rulebook they put it and the words that they use to say it, I think clarification may be in order. I'd like to think I don't have to have a 2-seat detune on a 1-seat car just to qualify for finals, but if that *is* the case I'd rather know early. They make no mention of having to, say, judge install at 2 shows prior to judging install at Finals. They specifically picked SQ2 out, and worded it so you aren't really certain.

But then again I'm currently reading between the rules. I'm looking to do some acoustical treatments that are technically not _disallowed_ by the rules specifically so I am reading the rulebook from the "What didn't they say" standpoint atm.


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

I was going to start in Stock and then move up to the Street Class after a few shows but was told that you couldnt transfer points between classes and if you change classes you forefet your points, I just started in Street and went from there.


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

chefhow said:


> if you change classes you forefet your points


I didn't know that. I know it's a one-way ride, but didn't realize that you forfeit your points along the way. Good to know.

-T


----------



## ramos (Mar 14, 2006)

Maybe those sorry low scoring modex guys are still working on stuff  




chefhow said:


> Todd, you would think that the ModEx guys would score higher, us Street guys are in the high 70's and pushing the 80 mark but none of us have hit it YET....


You will get there.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> Again, are you comparing competitors at the same event?
> 
> I see it. Heck, I just got beat by 7.5 points last week by a guy in 'stock' class. I don't feel bad about it... he's cleaned the floor with just about everyone who's ever competed. He knows what to listen for and has a very great sounding car. He's had time to develop it through the years. I think he would be the first to tell you that experience is what really helps you take your car to the next level. It's a rare thing for someone to jump right in with little to no experience and start placing well; even if they do have advantageous to their install itself.
> If you took the a newer guy, and gave him two cars: one for stock and one for modex and told him to go, I'm willing to bet the differences in scoring wouldn't be much different. He'd probably have a couple extra points, if that, but I doubt it would be vastly different, because at the end of the day he doesn't know exactly how to take advantage of his system's ability.
> ...





bikinpunk said:


> Furthermore, I wonder how many of the people in modex are taking advantage of all these aspects? I know I'm not. I'm only venting to the outside. The rest of my car would be classed in modified, I believe.
> 
> I definitely understand what the OP is saying, but I don't think there's a simple answer for it.



My points exactly in both replies.

Isn't Kirks car in stock? Isn't he using all Factory location? I could be wrong.


----------



## ramos (Mar 14, 2006)

H-Audio - AKA - Here-I-Come said:


> My points exactly in both replies.
> 
> Isn't Kirks car in stock? Isn't he using all Factory location? I could be wrong.



Kirk was in Street, I think he changed class this year.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Man you guys got me like a crack head over here. I'm itching to get in the lanes now. Well the itch more then likely will go away once my A** is handed to me in the Master class at Elite. When is National? Elite more then likely will be my first show and I need to get the points to qualify. Hope I have enough shows close enough to make the drive to after Elite to gather the points need to qualify. If I make it, I will be competing in Master and the 2 seat class.


----------



## ramos (Mar 14, 2006)

Finals is October 16th and 17th.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

ramos said:


> Finals is October 16th and 17th.


Thank you. So I will have about 2 months after Elite on August 7th.


----------



## ramos (Mar 14, 2006)

yep two months to go from sweating bullets , to freezing the nay nays off. Hopefully it won't be cold in TN in October. Wasn't too bad last year


----------



## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

Between Elite and Finals are all the State Finals. They are all 3X. Easy to make up points there. The State Finals have always been a confusing issue to me. If David ever stops by here again he can explain it a lot better.

The rules are to keep similar builds competing against each other. Moving from Street to Street Mod, Mod to Extreme, does not equal a 'step up' just different restrictions. Less install restrictions also makes room for more error.


----------



## Velozity (Jul 6, 2007)

Between Stock and Modified I don't really consider one class to be better than the other. Fact is there are just too many variables. If you have a car with great factory locations (tweets in pillars, mids on dash, midbass far forward in door) then you already have a huge advantage in Stock and Street. If your factory locations suck then you will have to deal with the poor placement by using extensive processing (moving you to Street or higher) and by modifiying the size, location and angles of your speakers. That's pretty much the difference between those 4 classes. If you go to ModEx or Extreme then you're going the extra mile to acheive sonic perfection. You have free reign to cut, carve, mold, and process to your heart's content. You really have to have a lot of tuning and installation experience (or a fat wallet) to take advantage of those classes. If you don't know what you're doing then you wont get any higher of a score than you would in the other classes.


----------



## sqhhr (Mar 11, 2008)

Kirk's car uses factory locations. He was in street until this year he moving to extreme. Thank goodness. The car that scored 95 then 77ish next day is a mid 80's scoring car. The 95 comes from a judge who happens to like it, but its not necessarily legit. The 77 was on a day the weather made a huge impact on scores. There's only a select few judges I actually take scores seriously from. The others are just point shows. Inexperienced judges can hurt more than help. I know they gotta learn also but take what they say and scores knowing their knowledge of judging.


----------



## SQrules (May 25, 2007)

highly said:


> OK, so I was on the MECA site checking out points standings for my class and was humbled by the number of people in the 80s and 90s. I was thrilled to see that I was in the top ten of the bunch, but the disparity is significant. Then for grins I called up the scores for ModEx to see how I fared compared to my buddy Joe Wallis. Overall the numbers appear to be lower in ModEx than Mod, especially with that gorgeous 94.5 sitting at the top of the board in Modified.
> 
> I would have expected ModEx cars to score higher on average and have a higher peak score. What's the deal?
> 
> -Todd


Guys try not to get caught up in the numbers when it comes to subjective judging from different judges all over the country. As much as we would like all of us to be an the same page, it doesn't happen. The only way to compare is on the same judge on the same day. Every class is judged on the same level. Just because your in Stock doesn't mean you are given any breaks. This allows for a true Best of Show winner. I have been to many shows where the lowest class was given the BOS honor.


----------



## SQrules (May 25, 2007)

H-Audio - AKA - Here-I-Come said:


> True, But as long as it is consistent with in the class with the same judge it should be ok for that show. And as long as that judge stay true to his judging style all year.
> 
> But
> 
> That is why I love the top 30 money rounds. Then you see who has the best sounding cars. As all the top guys are put up against each other and the judges scores are avenged.


I to enjoy the Top 30 shows, but more so when it's the judges choice on the music for each judge. That allows the best car to shine when you can put any type of music in and you just want to keep trying another and another CD. But MECA has been doing this for 10 years at every 3X pt show but with the MECA judging CD's. You will get three judges for every vehicle with an averaged score across all classes. So call it a Top "x" show where "x" is the number of competitors at the show. The BOS is up for grabs from any class, and you can see how you stack up against anyone in any class based on your scores.


----------



## SQrules (May 25, 2007)

Ok Everyone, Most States will have a State Final at the end of the year. Anyone can compete and obtain points (no minimum points needed to compete) at this event towards their own State Record. Your State Final is the last event that you can get points to count towards your State Record. To get a State Record you have to have at least 40 points and then have the most points in your class in your State. Anyone can go to any State Final. Just because you win at a different State Final does not make you that State Champion. You don't even have to have the highest SQ score to be a State Champion; it's who ever has the most points in their class. You can continue to go to shows after your State Final and accrue points towards World Finals qualifications or go for a SQ class Champion. At Finals there are awards for overall class champions for who ever has the most points in each class and overall SQ Champion who has the most points in any class.

Now for World Finals, you have to have 40 points, by the last show on the schedule before Finals, in the class that you want to compete in and the vehicle that you want to bring to Finals must have competed in at least 2 shows. You don't actually forfeit your points if you change class, but they will not transfer to another class. You can only compete in one class at Finals and your vehicle most qualify for that class at Finals. This includes Install and RTA if you want to compete at Finals in these formats. You must have 40 pts in your Install class and RTA to compete. At Finals you will pay one price for SQ and be entered in SQ, Install and RTA if you are qualified for all three.

For SQ2, you must compete in at least 2 events to qualify for Finals (no minimum pts). Anyone can compete in SQ2, it's an open class...no install limited classification. At Finals SQ2 requires an additional entry fee.

Hope this clears some things up.
Thanks,
David Hogan


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

SQrules said:


> For SQ2, you must compete in at least 2 events to qualify for Finals (no minimum pts). Anyone can compete in SQ2, it's an open class...no install limited classification. At Finals SQ2 requires an additional entry fee.
> 
> Hope this clears some things up.
> Thanks,
> David Hogan


That's good to hear (read). I was a little concerned about a couple of lines in the rule book that didn't seem to say what I thought they meant. From your indication above, it appears that the following statement should be read to mean 'If you want to compete *in SQ2* at State or Finals, you must have previously competed in a minimum of two SQ2 events' instead of 'A competitor must have competed in a minimum of two previous SQ2 events in order to qualify to compete in the State or Finals *SQ events*'. Given where this statement is located in the rulebook (general SQ rules vice SQ2-specific rules) and the ambiguity of the wording, it's easy to mis-take the intended meaning.

"D. Sound Quality Contests and Classes
...
5. SQ2 will be an open class, with sound quality score sheets for driver and passenger seats judged simultaneously. Both score sheets
are added together. Highest score wins. *MECA Members must compete in two (2) SQ2 contests to qualify for State Championships* and SQ2 entry at Finals."


----------



## SQrules (May 25, 2007)

MECA Members must compete in two (2) SQ2 contests to qualify for State Championships and SQ2 entry at Finals."

Don't confuse " qualify for State Championships" to mean you must compete at 2 SQ2 events to allow you to compete at State Finals. To quailfy for a State record in SQ2, your State Finals can be your second event. You must also have the highest points total in SQ2 in your State to be SQ2 State Champion.


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

SQrules said:


> Don't confuse " qualify for State Championships" to mean you must compete at 2 SQ2 events to allow you to compete at State Finals.


Precisely what I did. Thanks for the sanity check!
-Todd


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

David,

Thank you for clearing that up. I do have one question remaining. You stated:

"*This includes Install and RTA if you want to compete at Finals in these formats. You must have 40 pts in your Install class and RTA to compete.*"

Now does this mean that a competitor that has been doing SQ only and NOT install or RTA all season won't qualify for Finals? Or just that they cannot compete in the install and RTA portions of Finals? I hope I didn't word that too poorly and thank you for your time/insight.

Zach


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

whatever class you want to enter at finals, you must have 40 points in the class accrued via comps throughout the season.

ie: you want to enter RTA, install, and mod class at finals
You have to have 40 points in each class.


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Wow. 
Without some serious travel that makes it _very_ difficult to even get invited based on the number and values of the points shows here in Oklahoma. There are a total of 4 single (3 have passed) 5 double (1 has passed) and 1 triple point shows in the entire season here in the state, all of the shows being > 3 hour drive from Oklahoma City, and some being 4.5 hrs away. I've already missed one double points show and a single back in October, so if I make every other show *and* take first in my class at each of them I will have a shot at 45 points total. If I do the same for install, I will have 40 points. That's not a lot of wiggle room. 
I just checked, and there are NO shows in border states till the end of the season (Kansas, Texas, Arkansas).

Guess I just have to make them all count!
-Todd


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

highly said:


> Wow.
> Without some serious travel that makes it _very_ difficult to even get invited based on the number and values of the points shows here in Oklahoma. There are a total of 4 single (3 have passed) 5 double (1 has passed) and 1 triple point shows in the entire season here in the state, all of the shows being > 3 hour drive from Oklahoma City, and some being 4.5 hrs away. I've already missed one double points show and a single back in October, so if I make every other show *and* take first in my class at each of them I will have a shot at 45 points total. If I do the same for install, I will have 40 points. That's not a lot of wiggle room.
> I just checked, and there are NO shows in border states till the end of the season (Kansas, Texas, Arkansas).
> 
> ...


My shortest drive to a show has been 3 hours. I have done 1 that was 5 and 1 that was almost 4. The closest one to me this year so far will be a little over 2 hours north in July. I can TOTALLY sympathize with you.


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Todd, just win every comp you enter. Then you don't have to worry about it.


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

Boostedrex said:


> Todd, just win every comp you enter. Then you don't have to worry about it.


Dude, can't you see I'm tryin'?!


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

highly said:


> Dude, can't you see I'm tryin'?!


"Do or do not. There is no try." Yeah, I went there. LOL!!!!


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

:facepalm:

...I should have seen that coming....:laugh:


----------



## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Boostedrex said:


> "Do or do not. There is no try." Yeah, I went there. LOL!!!!


THAT WAS EPIC!!!! You do know that Tuesday was Star Wars day...


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

May the 4th be with you!


----------



## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

highly said:


> :facepalm:
> 
> ...I should have seen that coming....:laugh:





chefhow said:


> THAT WAS EPIC!!!! You do know that Tuesday was Star Wars day...


Thank you, thank you. I'm here all week. :Takes bow: LOL!


----------



## SQrules (May 25, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> whatever class you want to enter at finals, you must have 40 points in the class accrued via comps throughout the season.
> 
> ie: you want to enter RTA, install, and mod class at finals
> You have to have 40 points in each class.


Erin is correct. 

It's going to be tough for competitors in these new areas to get their points without doing a lot of traveling. But it's got to start somewhere. I started competing in MECA in 2003 and a few years later I became an Event Director so I could get more shows started in my own state (AL) so my fellow competitors didn't have travel to TN every time the wanted to compete. Give it some time and MECA will spread out west even more. So glad to see your enthusiasm out there.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

David, what about the guys in the more rural areas putting on their own show? Kind of how we have GTG's, they could just make it a comp? Is that something that takes a lot of work to get together (I assume finding the judges would be the tough part)? Is it an option for them?

Just wondering.

Thanks.


----------



## SQrules (May 25, 2007)

I know Steve Stern let's shops hold single point shows and use their own people to do judging, but I haven't seen it done at a GTG. Give Steve a call and see what he would require.


----------



## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

At Daytona we were flat out told we would be scored low in Mod Ex. I think it would be based on the judge and show in question.


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

8675309 said:


> At Daytona we were flat out told we would be scored low in Mod Ex. I think it would be based on the judge and show in question.


I kinda thought the whole point of the rulebook meant that everyone was judged by the same criteria no matter the class. By that logic, if two competitors in the same comp by the same judge each scored a 92.5 but one was a street class car and one was a master class car, they would each be equally good sounding vehicles (probably different deficits, but overall equal). If they both scored 3's for staging, you would expect each car to stage equally well. You would expect each higher class to remove a level of handicap (factory placement, limited airspace, etc.) and therefore the likelihood of a 90+ point car in street is much lower than a 90+ point master class car. Generalizations, clearly, but the scale isn't supposed to slide. It's one ruler for all classes. Or so I thought.

-Todd

bikinpunk:
I like the way you think. That's an interesting question. I think if the judge was MECA certified, a comp is a comp, no? I'd be interested to hear where that leads.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Well, I was going to ask about it myself a while back. I was actually asking for you. 

Shoot Steve an email. He's a cool dude. I'm sure he'll be happy to at least answer you.


----------



## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

My point is the highest score at SBN was 81.9. A competitor with a high score at SBN now has a score of almost 13 points higher. This goes back to it being based on the judges. In other words all judges hear different and may judge on a different criteria. It is the same thing in Iasca and Usaci. Having a standard all the way across the board is hard to do, without using the same judges at every show. It also comes back to the judge’s discretion.

Now based on the same show it would be uniform but from one show with one set of judges to another show with a different set of judges the scores will be dif.



highly said:


> I kinda thought the whole point of the rulebook meant that everyone was judged by the same criteria no matter the class. By that logic, if two competitors in the same comp by the same judge each scored a 92.5 but one was a street class car and one was a master class car, they would each be equally good sounding vehicles (probably different deficits, but overall equal). If they both scored 3's for staging, you would expect each car to stage equally well. You would expect each higher class to remove a level of handicap (factory placement, limited airspace, etc.) and therefore the likelihood of a 90+ point car in street is much lower than a 90+ point master class car. Generalizations, clearly, but the scale isn't supposed to slide. It's one ruler for all classes. Or so I thought.
> 
> -Todd
> 
> ...


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

And I expect judges from one show to the next to differ. At one show, with one judge, I would hope that in spite of the class a competitor was in that they judge based on the car, not the class. I've only been to two shows and they both had the same judge. Those things that did not change in my car stayed the same on the scoresheet, so I see him as a particularly consistent judge. Those things that improved showed improvement. I just don't expect an individual judge to bias his scores based on the class you're in. More points in Street than in Masters. If the cars aren't equal they shouldn't score the same. From what I can tell of the one judge I've had in my car, he was (reasonably) impartial, but tough. 
When you say that you were told at SBN that your class would have lower than normal scores were the other classes held to the same standard? If so, then it's as it should be IMHO. It was a tough contest, not a tough class. Sounds like what I would expect. I expect my score at a given show to reflect where my car stands against the other cars at the same show, assuming the same judge.

-Todd


----------



## highly (Jan 30, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Well, I was going to ask about it myself a while back. I was actually asking for you.
> 
> Shoot Steve an email. He's a cool dude. I'm sure he'll be happy to at least answer you.


I'd love to follow up on that, but I'd need to then find other people in the area to hold such a GTG with. Lol. I only know one other competitor in my area...and he's the one candidate for a judge as he's been to the MECA training. Methinks me dropping by Joe's place, getting the car judged, and taking home a first place napkin isn't what it's all about...

I think all of the shows in the state are put together by Tony at Sound Designs in Durant. Unfortunately for me, Durant is hell and gone from anywhere. It's halfway from here to Dallas, then turn left and head into the boonies. Just past BFE, hang a right and you'll find yourself in Durant. I think if it wasn't for Tony there would be no MECA in OK, and I'd be trying to find the nearest IASCA show...

I don't know why none of the local shops here, in Tulsa, or in Stillwater have stepped up to the plate, but they haven't. Maybe I need to begin campaigning for next season to try to expand the field a little in the state?

If I did know a group that fit the bill for a GTG, I would very seriously consider it! After all, we DO have a judge handy...

-Todd


----------



## PaulD (Nov 16, 2006)

my experiences have been that I score higher with any particular judge after he/she has heard my car 2 or 3 times. I know one judge scord my car like 15-20 pts higher the 2nd time around.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

highly said:


> I'd love to follow up on that, but I'd need to then find other people in the area to hold such a GTG with. Lol. I only know one other competitor in my area...and he's the one candidate for a judge as he's been to the MECA training. Methinks me dropping by Joe's place, getting the car judged, and taking home a first place napkin isn't what it's all about...
> 
> I think all of the shows in the state are put together by Tony at Sound Designs in Durant. Unfortunately for me, Durant is hell and gone from anywhere. It's halfway from here to Dallas, then turn left and head into the boonies. Just past BFE, hang a right and you'll find yourself in Durant. I think if it wasn't for Tony there would be no MECA in OK, and I'd be trying to find the nearest IASCA show...
> 
> ...



Make it happen.

Post up a thread about a Tex/Ok GTG event and try to coordinate with Steve/MECA to get something going. You don't have to have one in your hometown. You can have it somewhere else.

But realize that some people are willing to drive quite a way to go to a GTG or comp. You may find you have enough interest in it to make it worthwhile. Won't know until you try.


----------



## 8675309 (Jan 8, 2007)

Yes that is correct they judged that way for everyone. I am not arguing the fact that they judge the same at one show or the same judge scores the same at another. My point, scores are not consistent from show to show and that is because of different judges. The same car scoring 13 points difference in Meca is a huge difference. If it was consistent then that car would have scored around the same score at SBN? That is my point.



highly said:


> And I expect judges from one show to the next to differ. At one show, with one judge, I would hope that in spite of the class a competitor was in that they judge based on the car, not the class. I've only been to two shows and they both had the same judge. Those things that did not change in my car stayed the same on the scoresheet, so I see him as a particularly consistent judge. Those things that improved showed improvement. I just don't expect an individual judge to bias his scores based on the class you're in. More points in Street than in Masters. If the cars aren't equal they shouldn't score the same. From what I can tell of the one judge I've had in my car, he was (reasonably) impartial, but tough.
> When you say that you were told at SBN that your class would have lower than normal scores were the other classes held to the same standard? If so, then it's as it should be IMHO. It was a tough contest, not a tough class. Sounds like what I would expect. I expect my score at a given show to reflect where my car stands against the other cars at the same show, assuming the same judge.
> 
> -Todd


----------

