# Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Like many before me, I'm having the "up front bass" issue. I sat in my car for an hour and just can't get it right the way I want it.

I started off with doing major T/A adjustments getting as high up as 4.x ms from as low as 1.5 ms. I simply raised all speaker t/a values the same amount, 9 steps one time, 3 the next, etc. It seemed to _help_ but then it really started to mess with the dynamics. No matter what left/right adjustments I did after that I couldn't get the image to pull back toward my side...but it did center pretty well. I kinda just prefer it to have a driver's side bias, though. 

I also messed with my x-overs but it didn't do anything for me. Plus, I really like the settings the way they are. Phase did nothing but make the bass much more subtle...but as I type this I wonder if I can simply raise the bass level back up with it flipped at 180*. Hmmm...I do have *plenty* of headroom on the bass. 

I'm going to run some RTA measurements tonight when it cools, but I'd like to have some more ideas to go into this issue with tonight. 

Again, I hate to post something that seems so common, but all the info/suggestions I can get will *really* help. It's very likely there's just something I haven't thought to try, or a certain method to follow.


----------



## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

have you tried level settings?


----------



## c0mpl3x (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Yea, turn down the gain on the sub.  

Thats usually the root of the problem for most because if you want it to "blend" in then exaggerated subbass isn't going to help.  You may not like the sound of the sub that low but it works.


----------



## Whiterabbit (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



bikinpunk said:


> ...I'm having the "up front bass" issue. ......just can't get it right the way I want it.......I started off with doing major T/A adjustments .....


Theres your problem. Start with gain and crossover. Phase. Guarantee thatll get you SO MUCH farther.


----------



## c0mpl3x (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



Whiterabbit said:


> Theres your problem. Start with gain and crossover. Phase. Guarantee thatll get you SO MUCH farther.


X2 I don't have any T/A on my sub at all and it blends seemlessly up front.


----------



## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

What? your too lazy to carry it to the front seat? 

One of the most important aspects of sub woofer integration with the mid bass is group delay. Quite simply the mid woofer should be using a similar group delay as the sub.
Since the primary precursor of the amount of group delay is the network complexity, this should be evaluated.

IE 
Passive radiator, drone clone NLC etc is about 29 dB
Reflex, ported etc is about 24 dB
Reflex and "packed" is about 18 dB
Sealed is about 12 dB
Infinite baffle (I hate that term), open baffle, sealed box where the volume is over 2 times VAS is about 6 dB

If you have an electronic filter (crossover) in this range, you will have to sum it to obtain the network complexity.

I recommend therefore using a suitable matching crossover on the mid bass.

Start without the sub, get your front stage right first.
Then add the sub woofer.


----------



## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Try something a little more simple.

Turn off the time alignment that you're doing for the sub.

Turn off any eq on your sub, and turn off any highpass/lowpass filters.

Try reversing polarity until you find one that "blends in" better.

Lower the volume to a level where it kind of blends in upfront, but kind of doesn't. Play with every combination of xover you can reasonably do until you achieve the best results you can.

Now turn down the volume on the sub until it sounds completely transparent/upfront, and slowly increase it until it doesn't. Try to figure out where the slight boominess is coming from. Use an EQ and sweep across until it sounds upfront again. Continue to increase the volume again and sweep with the EQ or cut further until it sounds upfront again. Keep doing this until you reach a point where you can't go further.


----------



## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

you may be "feeling the bass" which will kill any chance of gettign the bass in front of you.


----------



## Kuztimrodder (Jan 10, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

I agree with everything mentioned. You have a pretty powerful sub setup. Unless you're a basshead, I'd say you have too much for the rest of your system to keep up with. The L18's should keep up fine but may require moe power than you have to do so. More power to the midbass would help pull the bass forward with the sub power your using now, but the TG9 would'nt keep up in the midrange. For well blending sub bass in your setup, you will have to sacrafice some SPL's. IMO it will sound so much better that you wont miss it. For quick sub increases, turn the sub level in the head unit down low and set your sub amps gains. When the time comes to go boom, just turn the sub level up. It may not sound as good but you can get your bass fix.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Guys, thanks for the advice. I think the root of the problem may be as many of you suggested; that I simply have the level too high. 

Abmolech, I'm having some trouble following exactly what you're saying about summing the crossover in the range. What does summing refer to, and what range? The midbass/subbass range?

Just to help give an idea of what my setup currently is:
midbass: 71-250hz. 18db and 24db slope, respectively.
Sub: xx-63hz. Slope at 24db on high end.

When I started the setup process a while back, which I have been using since, I started with midrange, then tweeter, then midbass, then added subwoofer. 

Dang, no specific comment towards your feedback. All good advice, and I'll do that.

Tim, I think I'm just having issues coming from my basshead days. I've finally gotten to where my subwoofer sounds "loud" enough, and that's a far cry from where "loud" used to be for me. 

Thanks for the feedback again, all. If you have anything else to add, I'm all ears (eyes & brain).


----------



## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Drop the midbass x-over lower - sub will be up front. 100% money back gaurentee.

-aaron


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



ArcL100 said:


> Drop the midbass x-over lower - sub will be up front. 100% money back gaurentee.
> 
> -aaron


I'm scared to do that....what the heck, guess it won't hurt. 63 @ 24db slope.


----------



## Kuztimrodder (Jan 10, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



bikinpunk said:


> I'm scared to do that....what the heck, guess it won't hurt. 63 @ 24db slope.


ArcL100 makes a good point. Plus you get your money back Wont hurt to try. If you have your mibdass highpassed at 71hz and the sub at 63hz then that could very well help. While you're at it, drop the sub to say 50ish so that only the low hits will power through. The lower the hz the less directional right?


----------



## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Sure,
Networks are made up of various components, in this case the enclosure type has a direct effect on how the driver will respond at lower frequencies. Effectively it is a filter. Perhaps a more dramatic example might be a bandpass enclosure, you will grasp that this type of enclosure will set the bottom and top roll offs (Assuming the driver inductance, capacitance and electronic filters are not having an effect inside the bandpass range). 

There is more to the network than just the enclosure, how about the driver capacitance acting as a filter? Or perhaps you have added a filter (crossover) which if it is in the frequency range of either of these two systems, should be added (summed)

Perhaps a good example of this is on a open baffle, the drivers capacitance sets the roll off.



> I'm scared to do that....what the heck, guess it won't hurt. 63 @ 24db slope.


If your using a reflex enclosure, good idea, if your using sealed I would not recommend a 24 dB slope.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



Abmolech said:


> Sure,
> Networks are made up of various components, in this case the enclosure type has a direct effect on how the driver will respond at lower frequencies. Effectively it is a filter. Perhaps a more dramatic example might be a bandpass enclosure, you will grasp that this type of enclosure will set the bottom and top roll offs (Assuming the driver inductance, capacitance and electronic filters are not having an effect inside the bandpass range).
> 
> There is more to the network than just the enclosure, how about the driver inductance acting as a filter? Or perhaps you have added a filter (crossover) which if it is in the frequency range of either of these two systems, should be added (summed)
> ...


Makes a little more sense, lol. 

I have a ported box tuned to 27/28hz... at least that's the _plan_.


----------



## low (Jun 2, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

did you try a different amp? ive read on other boards that if you change your amp, you will have bass up front..kekekek


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



low said:


> did you try a different amp? ive read on other boards that if you change your amp, you will have bass up front..kekekek


At first I thought you were serious. I was like "wtf"...


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

So if I understand Abmolech
Reflex, ported etc is about 24 dB
plus this
I recommend therefore using a suitable matching crossover on the mid bass.
plus what you said
midbass: 71-250hz. 18db and 24db slope, respectively
should you change your lower slope to 24dB?


----------



## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



> did you try a different amp? ive read on other boards that if you change your amp, you will have bass up front..kekekek


L33t post.



> should you change your lower slope to 24dB?


Yes.


----------



## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Is there any panel/s or anything resonating at all? If you can hear it, no amount of tuning will bring your sub up front.


----------



## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

sounds like you want your sub at a level that is fun and enjoyable for you, that most likely isn't the best SQ setup. not necessarily a bad thing, its just what you like. no one here should hate on you if you like your music to be a bit bass heavy. but dont expect it to blend seamlessly. when the bass is matched to the rest of the system, its not very prevalent that there is a 12w7 in your trunk, may sound like there is no sub at all.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



sqkev said:


> Is there any panel/s or anything resonating at all? If you can hear it, no amount of tuning will bring your sub up front.


Not really. There is one panel that has worked itself "loose" again, but it's nothing that's all of a sudden causing me an issue.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



internecine said:


> sounds like you want your sub at a level that is fun and enjoyable for you, that most likely isn't the best SQ setup. not necessarily a bad thing, its just what you like. no one here should hate on you if you like your music to be a bit bass heavy. but dont expect it to blend seamlessly. when the bass is matched to the rest of the system, its not very prevalent that there is a 12w7 in your trunk, may sound like there is no sub at all.


I truly think this is the truth, for my situation especially.

Buuut, there's no reason why i can't try the other suggestions to get as close as I can. 

Crazy thing is, that the subbass feels like it's coming from _under_ my seat after playing with the EQ for a few.


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

All of the suggestions have been very good so far.

When I work to blend subbass with midbass for a seamless transition for the best UFB "illusion". It starts 1st with level setting and crossover points. Actually it starts with having a capable midbass driver with the ability to play at least 60hz at a reasonable volume without major power loss. Larger cone area displaces more air, so the larger the driver up front you can have, the better it will be. Dont expect spectacular and realistic recreation of sound from anything smaller than a 6.5 up front.
Next is level setting and XO points. Go as low as possible and use a steep slope. Sleeper slopes will allow less bleed through of higher freqs which can makes the sound more localized. I have never done a rear mounted sub system and went above 60hz w/ good realistic results. I usually end up between 45 and 56hz @24db/octave. I usually use processing to cut the level of the sub to make it easier to "have fun" when driving and also b/c of the SPL section of the score sheet, messing with amp gains all the time is less consistent. The sub shouldnt "pound", it should sound quick or fast or "punchy", it should have no real "sound", its there to create pressure and for tactile information. All those terms describe midbass.


Next play with phase. As Npdang mentioned, listen to a few different tracks, imparticular something like Planet Krypton from the IASCA disc or something similar that is actually real music with actual subbass (below 50hz information).
listen to it several times, in phase, out of phase. One will be more obvious that it pulls toward the rear more than the other. The best you can get may be feeling it under your seat in your ass, which for Planet Krypton there alot of tactile information which you should feel as pressure and then at the crescendo it becomes a nice rumble that youll feel in your ass, but it shouldnt be in your back. 

Next move onto Time Delay. I usually end up around 3-5ms of TA on the subs.
This will help push it out farther in front of you since the subs are for more tactile information than anything audible.

EQ wise, I usually end up boosting 20hz some. Cutting 25hz. and usually leave 40 and 50hz alone. I think once I had a small peak in the 40hz area, but it was only a db or 2 that was cut.


----------



## Captain Paintball (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

I just spent an hour in a parking lot listening to music, and noticing how nice and "up front" my bass sounds! :blush: 

From what I remember, in the beginning, It came down to something as simple as crossover setting on the sub. Then for "anality," (That's a word I made up. It means the ability to be really anal retentive about something") I messed around with phase on my head unit. 

But before I had any "fancy" equipment, the most important thing was to cross over the sub at a point where it is no longer audible in the rear, BUT with no noticeable "holes" or major dips in the frequency response where the sub ends and the front speakers take over. 

I guess you can get around that by having a built in RTA and auto EQ to compensate, but you can only do that so much before it stresses the mids. If you only have 5.25"s in the front like me, you have to be careful. Luckily for me, everything's kosher.


----------



## JAG (May 6, 2006)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

OK .... There is a definite misconception going on here .... You CAN have your sub very loud , and up front at the same time. It takes more work/experience , but it is very , very possible. Ask Shinjohn about my car


----------



## SQ4ME2 (Jul 22, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



bikinpunk said:


> Like many before me, I'm having the "up front bass" issue. I sat in my car for an hour and just can't get it right the way I want it.
> 
> I started off with doing major T/A adjustments getting as high up as 4.x ms from as low as 1.5 ms. I simply raised all speaker t/a values the same amount, 9 steps one time, 3 the next, etc. It seemed to _help_ but then it really started to mess with the dynamics. No matter what left/right adjustments I did after that I couldn't get the image to pull back toward my side...but it did center pretty well. I kinda just prefer it to have a driver's side bias, though.
> 
> ...


remember when adusting your system to through the sub on the dash, "its not what you add, its what you take away"! if you had muddy bass you sure as hell wouldn't add freqs above 5k to muffle it would ya


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



Mic10is said:


> Next move onto Time Delay. I usually end up around 3-5ms of TA on the subs.
> This will help push it out farther in front of you since the subs are for more tactile information than anything audible.


This was my main question. When you say you TA the sub 3-5ms, do you mean that you delay your front stage 3-5ms so that your subwoofer is essentially placed in further in front of you? This is the direction I was headed in after exhausting eq & x-overs.


----------



## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



bikinpunk said:


> Like many before me, I'm having the "up front bass" issue. I sat in my car for an hour and just can't get it right the way I want it.
> 
> I started off with doing major T/A adjustments getting as high up as 4.x ms from as low as 1.5 ms. I simply raised all speaker t/a values the same amount, 9 steps one time, 3 the next, etc. It seemed to _help_ but then it really started to mess with the dynamics. No matter what left/right adjustments I did after that I couldn't get the image to pull back toward my side...but it did center pretty well. I kinda just prefer it to have a driver's side bias, though.
> 
> ...


delay the speakers by the distance behind you the sub is.


^ perfect english.


----------



## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



bikinpunk said:


> This was my main question. When you say you TA the sub 3-5ms, do you mean that you delay your front stage 3-5ms so that your subwoofer is essentially placed in further in front of you? This is the direction I was headed in after exhausting eq & x-overs.


yes, the output from the sub should arrive at you ears at the same time as the output from the speakers. and the sub is farther away.so speakers need to be delayed a little.


----------



## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



AVI said:


> OK .... There is a definite misconception going on here .... You CAN have your sub very loud , and up front at the same time. It takes more work/experience , but it is very , very possible. Ask Shinjohn about my car


or mine.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

How much time delay can you put on each part of your whole sound system?

Have you ever been on a teeter-totter and gone all the way up and all the way down, quite an experience, wasn't it.

Did you die, well good, I'm glad to hear that you tried it in all of it's positions.

Experiment!

If Mic said he put time delay on his sub 3-5ms, How did you get that he put time delay on something else?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



Hic said:


> How much time delay can you put on each part of your whole sound system?
> 
> Have you ever been on a teeter-totter and gone all the way up and all the way down, quite an experience, wasn't it.
> 
> ...


You can take that to mean two different things if you're in my situation. Logic would be what I posted; everything else is delayed 3-5ms. But, if you take what he said, literally, then the subwoofer would be delayed 3-5ms. That's how I read it at least.

As for my ability of T/A values, I think I have up to 10ms, IIRC.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

You may never have heard of "Chuck Music", this tutorial is so wide ranging in its scope, the only you are left asking....is, who is CM 
http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showthread.php?threadid=98293


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



Hic said:


> You may never have heard of "Chuck Music", this tutorial is so wide ranging in its scope, the only you are left asking....is, who is CM
> http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showthread.php?threadid=98293


I have that page bookmarked on two different computers so that when I begin tuning again (this weekend) I'll have it ready to go. Best part? I forgot entirely about that page. lol. Thanks for the refresher.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Like I've said to you before, you are in the area of the Schil Acoustic Team, and they pretty much dominate MECA and the top 30 rounds at SQ competitions...they are all great guys and you really should get someone who knows what they are doing to help you tune.


----------



## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

I do know for a fact that you may need eqing around 40-50hz on your sub, i found that playing my midbasses down to 63hz 24db, and playing my sub up to 63hz, 18db, i needed some eq work at 40 and 50hz on the sub to keep the subbass from being localizable and putting the notes more towards midbass pressence instead of subpressence. Also had to use massive EQ on my midbasses to be able to go to 63hz because the extremi are so sensitive down low, got them right finally now dipping low at nice output levels even open window road, very snappy depening on source material, and blend very well with the sub and midranges.


----------



## Fellippe (Sep 15, 2006)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



demon2091tb said:


> I do know for a fact that you may need eqing around 40-50hz on your sub, i found that playing my midbasses down to 63hz 24db, and playing my sub up to 63hz, 18db, i needed some eq work at 40 and 50hz on the sub to keep the subbass from being localizable and putting the notes more towards midbass pressence instead of subpressence. Also had to use massive EQ on my midbasses to be able to go to 63hz because the extremi are so sensitive down low, got them right finally now dipping low at nice output levels even open window road, very snappy depening on source material, and blend very well with the sub and midranges.


I agree 100% here...

What Demon says is right....more midbass presence than subbass presence? A lot of people enjoy low bass (myself included), but too much of it in certain frequency bands just emphasizes sub too much and pulls the stage back. 

The lower you can bring the crossover point on the midbasses the better....cliche statement but very true. And I've found that even if the overall output up front isn't enormous, just the fact that you can play down to 50, 60 hz without distortion does wonders to bring the illusion up front. I get away with 50 hz @ 18db and it's great. If I could get away with 40 hz, even better. 

Also, another counterintuitive idea is to try a higher sub crossover point. I have been against this for the longest, but I succumbed recently to go from 55 hz to 80 hz, and found it to blend better. With more emphasis on the midbass region, I find the transient performance improved, and of course more punch as well. This is not a one size fits all solution, but it worked right away so maybe give it a try. 

While some people may be against a subwoofer gain knob up front, it's interesting to play around with to get instant up front results. I have it setup where the halfway mark is "ideal" and often times find myself lowering it. Rarely kick it up past halfway...maybe 3/4 if a particular song is really sounding lean. 

There's always the rare exception of a few songs where the subbass is so present, you'll just have to put up with bass from the rear for a little while. But for most SQ listening, bass up front is very achievable.

"You can never have enough midbass" - Albert Einstein


----------



## Kuztimrodder (Jan 10, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



demon2091tb said:


> I do know for a fact that you may need eqing around 40-50hz on your sub, i found that playing my midbasses down to 63hz 24db, and playing my sub up to 63hz, 18db, i needed some eq work at 40 and 50hz on the sub to keep the subbass from being localizable and putting the notes more towards midbass pressence instead of subpressence. Also had to use massive EQ on my midbasses to be able to go to 63hz because the extremi are so sensitive down low, got them right finally now dipping low at nice output levels even open window road, very snappy depening on source material, and blend very well with the sub and midranges.


That is a better explained way of what I was getting at previously. Doing this helped tremedously in the last system I had with two 12" subs and a 6 1/2" component set front stage. The only difference was that I kept the midbass at 18db and had to keep the level down more than I would've liked, but that was due to the drivers inabilities..


----------



## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



bikinpunk said:


> This was my main question. When you say you TA the sub 3-5ms, do you mean that you delay your front stage 3-5ms so that your subwoofer is essentially placed in further in front of you? This is the direction I was headed in after exhausting eq & x-overs.



NO i meant exactly what I said. I delayed the sub 3-5ms. Processing I am using is Alpine H700.
Rest of the system uses some parallel TA to align each driver better, sub is somewhat separate to bring it farther in front AFTER the rest of the system is done.
I think my TA settings when I won finals 2 years ago. Front stage midrange/highs were around 1.2ms, Midbass was around 2ms. then sub was around 3.5ms.


----------



## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Try to drop the xover point less than 50Hz for your sub and use very steep slope. In my experience, the secret to good sub bass and sub bass integration is good midbass...try putting your midbass in an enclosure that would really reinforce your upfront bass presence.


----------



## Diru (May 23, 2006)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

ummm , i know there are pages of stuff im skipping but


your at 63 on your sub , go lower 40's to 50's

your midbass to the 60's

then as steep a slope that you can do.

you might even try a gap[40 on the sub 60 on the midbass]


----------



## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

you also might want to make sure that ALL RATTLES BUZZES PINGS and ANY other resonance inside the cabin are dead. often the localization of low frequencies happens when a higher freuquency resonance happens at the same time and at a fundamental of the low note being played by the sub. your ears cannot tell where the 50 Hz bass drum comes from, but can hear a fundamental of the 50Hz if an interior panel is buzzing in the rear at the same time and to the same rythm as the sub.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



Mic10is said:


> NO i meant exactly what I said. I delayed the sub 3-5ms. Processing I am using is Alpine H700.
> Rest of the system uses some parallel TA to align each driver better, sub is somewhat separate to bring it farther in front AFTER the rest of the system is done.
> I think my TA settings when I won finals 2 years ago. Front stage midrange/highs were around 1.2ms, Midbass was around 2ms. then sub was around 3.5ms.


Thank You Mic!


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



Hic said:


> How much time delay can you put on each part of your whole sound system?
> 
> Have you ever been on a teeter-totter and gone all the way up and all the way down, quite an experience, wasn't it.
> I'm glad to hear that you tried it in all of it's positions.
> ...


What I'm asking you to do here is just try things, even if you think it's wrong, do it.
What "The "06" World Champ", was saying, seemed wrong to you, so you turned the words around to make it go with what you believed.

Try the positions that you think are wrong.

If it is as you suspected, your ears will confirm it !


----------



## tRidiot (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

I usually run my midbasses with no HPF and my subs LP'd at 40 or 50Hz at 36dB/oct... I have great up-front midbass at reasonable volume. My biggest problem is rattles and such, which localizes alot of sound, obviously.

Do I have 'competition' sound? No way, and damn proud of it!


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



Hic said:


> What I'm asking you to do here is just try things, even if you think it's wrong, do it.
> What "The "06" World Champ", was saying, seemed wrong to you, so you turned the words around to make it go with what you believed.
> 
> Try the positions that you think are wrong.
> ...


I didn't mean to say he was "wrong", the statement just went against what I'm used to. Don't wanna piss any champs off, lol.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Bikinpunk, I definately picked up on that, hence the set it to the max 10ms on sub, OK, since you feel this is wrong, then your ears will tell you that you are right!

In Chuck Music's tuning tutorial, he says if you lower this frequency it will move the sound stage farther away, and if you raise this frequency it will make the soundstage rise, further on he explains how to shift the center by using left and right EQ adjustments.

Now what if you were to go down to the subbass frequencies and try the tricks he used to make the soundstage move farther away?
excerpt:
13. In tuning you will find some eq bands will raise, lower, move the sound closer, or farther away if adjusted in certain manners. For example, lowering 5 KHz will generally move the soundstage farther away and raising 2 KHz will make the soundstage rise. Each vehicle and system will have different settings that will be the best. The best way to achieve awesome sound is to constantly adjust.


----------



## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

forget milliseconds trust your ears, play some music with some quality bass lines and play with the TA (while music is playing) until you hear/feel the bass up front. theres a ton of anomalies that could make cars/processors perform differently.

trust your ears not your settings.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Not confused enough?

Excerpt from "Scott Buwalda"


5. Adjust time domain character to account of impulse response of larger drivers. This is a big benefit for cars with subwoofers mounted behind the listener. Also account for some time domain manipulation with larger midbass. 

6. For two-seat cars, adjust time in speaker pairs, with respect to the distance of the speaker farthest away from you. So if the midrange is the farthest speaker away, adjust your midbass and subwoofers accordingly, not only for impulse, as noted above, but for position relative to your ears. Remember, time alignment above 1,000 Hz is rendered virtually useless. Tis is all amplitude by that point. 

...a few things to get you started


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



Hic said:


> 13. In tuning you will find some eq bands will raise, lower, move the sound closer, or farther away if adjusted in certain manners. For example, *lowering 5 KHz will generally move the soundstage farther* away and raising 2 KHz will make the soundstage rise. Each vehicle and system will have different settings that will be the best. The best way to achieve awesome sound is to constantly adjust.


Funny you chose this quote. I actually noticed that after a couple hours tuning yesterday that my soundstage has been pushed further away from me, but I did manage to get my sub bass more focused in front of me. So, today I have to work on getting my stage a bit closer to me again. 

If it isn't one thing it's the other...


What's sad is that in a month or so I"ll be starting from scratch again.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Well, that is great news  ,eventually you will get this down to a science  

I hope you have continued success !!


----------



## Kuztimrodder (Jan 10, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



lukeboa said:


> forget milliseconds trust your ears, play some music with some quality bass lines and play with the TA (while music is playing) until you hear/feel the bass up front. theres a ton of anomalies that could make cars/processors perform differently.
> 
> trust your ears not your settings.


In the end you will find this to be very true. 

Erin, you mentioned having to do it all over again in a month. You will remember all this the next time around...well most of it,lol. A helpful hint; always write down your final settings and keep it in your glove box. Last week a cell went dead in my battery and had I not written down all the settings, I would've had to start from scratch again. Your final settings now wont be the same when you switch things around but it's a good starting point and will serve as a reminder of the steps your are taking now.


----------



## SQ4ME2 (Jul 22, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



bikinpunk said:


> Funny you chose this quote. I actually noticed that after a couple hours tuning yesterday that my soundstage has been pushed further away from me, but I did manage to get my sub bass more focused in front of me. So, today I have to work on getting my stage a bit closer to me again.
> 
> If it isn't one thing it's the other...
> 
> ...


remember this as well. barometric pressure changes when going to another city or living in humid places. we did sony nationals one year and after adusting the alpine digimax for proper alignment and time and when we left oregon and got to monteray california and had to do it all again before the event


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



Kuztimrodder said:


> In the end you will find this to be very true.
> 
> Erin, you mentioned having to do it all over again in a month. You will remember all this the next time around...well most of it,lol. A helpful hint; always write down your final settings and keep it in your glove box. Last week a cell went dead in my battery and had I not written down all the settings, I would've had to start from scratch again. Your final settings now wont be the same when you switch things around but it's a good starting point and will serve as a reminder of the steps your are taking now.


Thank god for Alpine's 6 memory functions.


----------



## Kuztimrodder (Jan 10, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



bikinpunk said:


> Thank god for Alpine's 6 memory functions.


Does that work when the battery is disconnected?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



Kuztimrodder said:


> Does that work when the battery is disconnected?


I'm pretty sure. *tries to recall*

Yes, I think so. It stores it and even if you have the battery disconnected it'll still save it.


----------



## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

You can't audibly locate frequencies that low... what might give it away are clues such as vibrating seats, rattling panels, etc.

I think low crossover points for subs are great for ease of tuning, but not required. It's much easier in my experience for people to just cross the sub at 50hz and run a stronger midbass, than it is for them to figure out the time delay/phase, eq, etc. that would enable them to use a significantly higher xover point. And in general, the lower you cross your midbass the more ringing you will have in your doors/kicks and higher distortion into the lower midrange and higher imd.


----------



## legend94 (Mar 15, 2006)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



npdang said:


> Try something a little more simple.
> 
> Turn off the time alignment that you're doing for the sub.
> 
> ...



he could have just bought a diyma sub


----------



## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



SQ4ME2 said:


> remember this as well. barometric pressure changes when going to another city or living in humid places. we did sony nationals one year and after adusting the alpine digimax for proper alignment and time and when we left oregon and got to monteray california and had to do it all again before the event


i believe it but its,

insane, absurd and crazy.

imagine going for a drive in a mountainous region and having to tweak your settings as you go up 1 hill and down the next :blush: 

or if it started or stopped raining  

car audio at this level is pure madness imo.

what does a world iasca winner get?

a $70 trophy?

a set of components?

seriously, what prize could motivate anyone to spend 3000 hours and $25,000 on a car system?

best prize ever for a car audio comp win?


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

The winner at The Masters in Perry, GA used to win $25,000.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Richard Clark on his Buick Grand National...Here it is:

"No it didn't set an spl record--when i got it it had alresdy won two world championships--I refined it into a car that no one was able to beat--I campaigned the car for two years with zero losses including the masters tournament and iasca finals twice--and that was back when there was some serious prize money--$25.5 K for the 90 masters show alone--i am pretty sure it holds the record for the most money earned in a single season--almost $60K it was an incredible sounding car


----------



## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



lukeboa said:


> what does a world iasca winner get?
> 
> a $70 trophy?
> 
> a set of components?


Last year it was an 18" X-Box marketing device.


----------



## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

meh, 

$60,000


divide that money by the hours of work put into the vehicle plus the cost of equipment and i dont think its anywhere near worth the effort. id rather have $2000 of good used equipment and enjoy my bump and spend my time and money elsewhere.fixing the house, vacations, travell new toys etc etc.

if your a manufaturer of product and want to increase sales i geddit how winning a comp would be good, but for your average jo...nah


----------



## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



npdang said:


> You can't audibly locate frequencies that low... what might give it away are clues such as vibrating seats, rattling panels, etc.
> 
> I think low crossover points for subs are great for ease of tuning, but not required. It's much easier in my experience for people to just cross the sub at 50hz and run a stronger midbass, than it is for them to figure out the time delay/phase, eq, etc. that would enable them to use a significantly higher xover point. And in general, the lower you cross your midbass the more ringing you will have in your doors/kicks and higher distortion into the lower midrange and higher imd.



That's basically what I told him on SoundDomain. Lower the crossover to 50hz, eliminate as much panel resonance as possible, and play your mid-bass from 50-200hz (max). Of course to do that you would need a mid-range capable of playing down to 200hz without distortion. That's about as much as you can do with a ported enclosure.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



DigitalBoomer said:


> That's basically what I told him on SoundDomain. Lower the crossover to 50hz, eliminate as much panel resonance as possible, and play your mid-bass from 50-200hz (max). Of course to do that you would need a mid-range capable of playing down to 200hz without distortion. That's about as much as you can do with a ported enclosure.


You told me this on sounddomain? 

I've never posted this question on SD as far as I can remember. 

Regardless, thanks for the advice you already gave me.


----------



## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



bikinpunk said:


> You told me this on sounddomain?
> 
> I've never posted this question on SD as far as I can remember.
> 
> Regardless, thanks for the advice you already gave me.


I thought it was you.  Oh well, what can I say....I'm old.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



DigitalBoomer said:


> I thought it was you.  Oh well, what can I say....I'm old.


lol. Tis okay.

I was like "did I post this on SD?". It's been a while since I've posted any questions there so you had me like "wtf". lol


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Conisdering he bought the car as a world champ, he didn't spend any money or time building it.

You are hating...have your hateraide this morning?



lukeboa said:


> meh,
> 
> $60,000
> 
> ...


----------



## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



thehatedguy said:


> Conisdering he bought the car as a world champ, he didn't spend any money or time building it.


He remained unbeaten for another 2 years without any more time or money investment? Must of been some weak competition.

-aaron


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

No weak competition, he was doing things the others weren't doing and it took a while for everyone to catch up.

Gary Biggs was undefeated for 7 years (I think), can't call all of his competition weak b/c of that. His car pretty much stayed the same minus changing sponsors.


----------



## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



ArcL100 said:


> He remained unbeaten for another 2 years without any more time or money investment? Must of been some weak competition.
> 
> -aaron



Actually, he probably could have competed even longer with it. That car sounded phenomenal, I got a chance to hear it once at the 1990 IASCA finals in Phoenix.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

I know this is old, but I totally disagree with the need to have a low x-over point on the mid bass, especially when referring to a mid bass that is in front of your ears. You can get excellent results with a sub playing way higher than 50hz, and for that matter with the mid bass behind your head. Playing with x-over slopes (think phase), eq-ing, amplitude, and path lengths can get it on the other side of the windshield. Also, try mass loading your seats Take your seat out of the car and kneel down so your ears are at the same point as your seated position and compare. And as previously stated, eliminate all panel resonance from the rear bumper to the front of the dash.


----------



## ixi (Jul 26, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

The only way I've ever been satisfied with realistic "bass up front" is with an x-over of 50.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

If done properly you can have drivers (seperate subs & mid bass) behind your head playing from 20 to 350~400hz and it will sound like it is on the dash.


----------



## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

I have tried and tried to make a sub LP of 80hz or so to work. This is what Eric Stevens of ID recommends, and I trust him wholeheartedly.

I hope to get more processing going for the subs i.e. parametric eq. Maybe that will help.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

I really wish that DSP's like the H-701 would let one, at the very least, use the graphic eq for the highs and the parametric for the subs. Ideally I would like to be able to use both at the same time.

80 hz shouldn't be a problem. A lot of the time it is due to improper box design, not saying that the box was not built to spec out at .707, but that when that box is in the car everything will change. And if it gets boomy and muddy sounding, you can't eq that out and it makes it very hard to have the bass sound as if it is coming from the front of the car. A sub/box combo that produced a very tight low end with very fast decay is super easy to fool your ears and get it in the front of the car.


----------



## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

My subs are 2 AE IB15's @500 watts 2 ohms (JL 500/1). Front stage is ID Ultra mini horns and x69's in kicks. Eric just responded to a my post on his forum stating that the x69's and IB15's may not be playing nice together due to conflicting design of the two. I'd be lying if I said I understood what he was saying.:blush:

Got some homework to do.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Someone should do a tutorial on here about the relationship between x-over slopes, phase, and how to use MLS measurements to show what is going on and how changing slopes can help with the transition frequencies . I don't think there is a comprehensive tutorial with that narrow of focus. Also, it might be a good idea for a "how to" forum just on tuning.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

back from the dead... lol.

I've gotten good results with the midbasses crossed at 80hz 24db, and the sub at 50hz 36dB. You don't have to cross your mids/subs low to get up front bass. You just have to really work with the dsp you have, though. 

Also, it's a good idea to figure out where your cabin gain point is and toy with cutting that down via EQ. This is one of the biggest helps in my car as it gets rid of a lot of the tactile feedback and helps your front stand out more instead of being swallowed by the subs in the back.


----------



## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



jbholsters said:


> Someone should do a tutorial on here about the relationship between x-over slopes, phase, and how to use MLS measurements to show what is going on and how changing slopes can help with the transition frequencies . I don't think there is a comprehensive tutorial with that narrow of focus. Also, it might be a good idea for a "how to" forum just on tuning.


Or just search for "tuning". The one from cmusic is excellent.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

You must be running IB with that gap you created.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



sam3535 said:


> Or just search for "tuning". The one from cmusic is excellent.


Wasn't thinking of myself on that one, but just a good way to organize all the tuning tutorials. cmusic's doesn't really get into what I was talking about. Wasn't it just how to use MLS to set arrival times?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



jbholsters said:


> You must be running IB with that gap you created.


Yes, but I don't see how that really matters.

Cabin gain can really do a lot of things to your car. Many people I've talked to run a gap in their sub/midbass.


----------



## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

I have a lot to learn about tuning but I have my sub crossed at 80hz...might help that it is physically in front of me too in the center console....but you cannot locate it and it blends with the mid bass's in the doors perfectly.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



bikinpunk said:


> Yes, but I don't see how that really matters.


The problem with IB is that you can't account for cabin gain. Unless you are running servos (not gain servos, but servo piston drivers) which would take up the entire trunk, or apply resistive membrane to the front of the drivers but then it is no longer IB  The membrane if you do it properly will make them sound wonderful, and by wonderful I mean accurate.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



UNBROKEN said:


> I have a lot to learn about tuning but I have my sub crossed at 80hz...might help that it is physically in front of me too in the center console....but you cannot locate it and it blends with the mid bass's in the doors perfectly.


Neat, I'm glad it worked out for you. Biggs car sounded real nice with that sub up front. I've heard a few cars, believe it or not with subs in front where there was, what I call a stream effect from front to back of the vehicle, it was very odd. The bass went past your ear as if it were a stream. The one that stands out the most was a blue 911 from TX. We were doing the install judging on the car (at a Regional in KY) and when we were sitting in the car scoring the guy had the IASCA disc playing and Lil Daddy sounded really weird. Def. a phase issue.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



jbholsters said:


> The problem with IB is that you can't account for cabin gain. Unless you are running servos (not gain servos, but servo piston drivers) which would take up the entire trunk, or apply resistive membrane to the front of the drivers but then it is no longer IB  The membrane if you do it properly will make them sound wonderful, and by wonderful I mean accurate.


I'm not really sure what you mean or what you expect to need to account for cabin gain with an IB setup. 

I simply cut 40hz as there's more natural resonance in the cabin around that frequency. I found this by use of the RTA, yes, but moreso just some toying around with things. Took about 5 minutes to get it down to 40 & 50hz.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



bikinpunk said:


> I'm not really sure what you mean or what you expect to need to account for cabin gain with an IB setup.
> .


Your trunk is a box, unless you cut a big hole in the trunk it is not truly IB. If you placed that sub in a box the size of your trunk, the response would not be the same as said woofers mounted in your trunk. More to the point, very few IB setups (don't flame me as a lot on hear run IB) don't sound that spectacular IMO. You can't trick the sub into doing what you want in an IB setup. An RTA can not make a speaker have those characteristics that it would have in a more controlled environment. It is not a cure all for the acoustics of an automobile. If a system is set up properly you should be able to get a pretty smooth response without the RTA. Nothing to do with you, but generally anytime you have to gap x-over points there is something else going on. It's a band aid, just like an Eq, there is nothing wrong with it. It is what it is.

EDIT: A simpler way to say it that you can't build an IB setup to use cabin gain in your favor, as you could with other options.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

I'm with you entirely. Which is why I didn't understand what you were trying to say. In fact, I thought you were trying to say that because it's IB, it won't suffer from cabin gain. 


I understand where you are coming from now, though. 
I can't explain to you why or why it doesn't work, other than the simple fact that leaving the gap does work for me. Could be any number of reasons.

My typical setting is now with the MB at 70hz 24dB and the sub at 50hz 48dB. There's something going on in the 63hz region and it seems to me that when the sub is crossed higher there's acoustic coupling going on which results in a pull to the rear. This is where proper levels come in. But, then again, you may have noticed that some also like to boost their low end. I just prefer to keep my gain for the sub set at a moderate level and cross it lower so the upper end of the sub's passband doesn't cause the subs to 'show their place'. This, in effect, is the same thing some folks do by EQ'ing out certain issues; I'm just letting my crossover handle it. So far it seems to be the best solution in my car, coupled with knocking 40hz down. 
Make sense? I hope so... I'm not sure I understand what I just said.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Have you tried any MLS sweeps while your x-over is set from 50~100 Hz and each one at different slopes? You may find some answers with that. 


Also, some day you are bored, get some grill mess, and bust out the router and try making some AP membranes for over the front of the cones. You might like it.

As an aside, the last competition car I built for myself way back in 93-94? was done to use the cabin gain in my favor. I was running Rockford Pro 12's, which were, at the time, usually run in huge enclosures. We built a ported box, .97 each side with 18" ports. The ports stuck out of the box, ran into the rear fender wells that were filled in waterproof insulation. Those subs played down to 15 Hz, flat (I pulled a 36 at one event without an eq) and when a drum hit it felt like someone hit you with a baseball bat, very tight and controlled. Each sub had juiced up PPI A600.2's on each sub


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Are you running a bit1? Wish I my 701 had slopes that steep. All it has is hiss.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

A vehicle will still experience the effects of transfer function regardless of the "IB definition" it's still in a closed space. Door speakers are even further from IB and also experience the effects of closed space gains.


----------



## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Bass-up-front is all about frequency response and eliminating rattles. No TA is necessary between subs and the rest so long as the crossover is about 80Hz or below.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Yeah, 55 Hz n down seems great


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Bass-up-front is all about frequency response and eliminating rattles. No TA is necessary between subs and the rest so long as the crossover is about 80Hz or below.


Not sure if this was directed at me, but I wasn't (or didn't mean to) suggest using the MLS measurements to alter arrival times, simply to look at what phase issues may be going on at a given x-over frequency and slope.

I've heard several cars that didn't play anything approaching sub bass or mid bass for that matter in the front of the vehicle that had bass up front. A certain Honda and GN come to mind :surprised:

Stay away from leather seats. Even if you vent the subs via a pass through, the leather in the rear seats acts like a giant passive radiator of sorts and can make some very annoying cues.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



jbholsters said:


> I've heard several cars that didn't play anything approaching sub bass or mid bass for that matter in the front of the vehicle that had bass up front. A certain Honda and GN come to mind :surprised:


A certain GN also had the seats treated to reduce tactile cues too. Many if not most people are still very primal in the aspect of location via feel, if I touched your shoulder your back you would know I was behind you right?


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Exactly, in the car I metioned above (Regal) the seats had hard plastic covers (factory) that were attached to the seat backs, so we pulled them off, attached a lead sheet to the frame, beefed up the seat frame, and packed a crap load of clay in there as well before putting the seats back together.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Another easy trick (for kicks, at least) is to put in a set of floor mats like those offered from WeatherTech. Helps to decouple your feet from the floor.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



jbholsters said:


> Exactly, in the car I metioned above (Regal) the seats had hard plastic covers (factory) that were attached to the seat backs, so we pulled them off, attached a lead sheet to the frame, beefed up the seat frame, and packed a crap load of clay in there as well before putting the seats back together.


I still say, as you proved, that much of the "bass in back" is due to tactile issues. many with beefy midbasses up front have complained of "bass in back" with the subs shut completely off.

Some cue to it, some don't, depends on the person.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Yes, mass loading seat backs and the undersides helps. I need to mass load the leather in my rear seats  as it sounds like the beginning of Hot for Teacher when playing 30~50 Hz sign waves  Luckely it is at a much lower amplitude than the frequency, so it doesn't draw the bass to the rear of the vehicle.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

For a good demo if this can help you (mass loading seats), pull your seat out of the car, and sit where it was and see if the bass is still back behind you as much.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



chad said:


> many with beefy midbasses up front have complained of "bass in back" with the subs shut completely off.
> 
> Some cue to it, some don't, depends on the person.


That would be me.
It’s amazing to me that you literally can feel like you’re getting punched in the back with the subs even off. Midbasses in kicks.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



bikinpunk said:


> That would be me.
> It’s amazing to me that you literally can feel like you’re getting punched in the back with the subs even off. Midbasses in kicks.


Fix that issue and bass up front will be simplified


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

I agree.
Problem is, how do I fix it?

My seats don’t dismantle. Well, they do, but they don’t go back together.  
So that rules out adding lead or clay, etc to the seat back. 

I have used rubber washers on the seatbolts themselves but I can’t say it’s worked very well. Never really thought about it as it was just something I did as part of my install; not something I did one day to A/B the difference.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

They dismantle, they have to so you can get the cover on. Mine have a zipper.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

Is the material attached to the frame with metal rings? If so it's a simple matter of removing them and peeling off the fabric. But if you are nervous about doing it, you could always get a spare set of seats from a salvage yard, have an upholstry shop remove the covers, do your thing, have them re-intall the covers and you are good to go. Also, try the floor mats if you feel any vibration on the floor (put them on top of your factory mats). The factory mats kind of decouple the rubber, which is heavy (think MLV). Come to think of it having a set of custom mats made with mass loading and a cushion layer might work too.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

mine definately do not have a zipper. I checked for that.

I'll look into it again, but I recall seeing a 'diy seat fabric replace’ on the civic forum and remember thinking that it looked like a major pita. I’ll try to take another look at it again soon, though.


How exactly are you getting the clay to stay put in there? Just piling it up?


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

my floors are just fine. I have a few things going on down there to decouple my feet. 

the seats are a different story.


found the DIY seat fabric change:
http://www.8thcivic.com/Seats.pdf

You can see the inside of the seat. Doesn't look too bad to remove the back at all.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

The lead was attached to a frame made of angle iron (like 1/4" X 1/4"). Then 1/4" steel was welded in a checkerboard pattern and the clay was filled into those squares. A thin layer of hard insolation was screwed into the steel. The frame was welded to the seats between the upright frame rails.

EDIT: If you do this make sure you have some help to get the seats back it. They will weigh a LOT


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

You know it would not hurt to do a sweep and find out where the seat goes nuts and how wide said bandwidth is


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

If I'm looking at those pics correctly, you should be able to just mass load the hell out of the steel sheet metal in the seat back. I would also mass load the metal rails and the plasic while panel on the seat bottom. You could just use 4/5 layers of Damplifier Pro or Dynamat Extreme.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



jbholsters said:


> The lead was attached to a frame made of angle iron (like 1/4" X 1/4"). Then 1/4" steel was welded in a checkerboard pattern and the clay was filled into those squares. A thin layer of hard insolation was screwed into the steel. The frame was welded to the seats between the upright frame rails.
> 
> EDIT: If you do this make sure you have some help to get the seats back it. They will weigh a LOT


Wow…. 

Man, I think I’ll just deal with getting punched in the back, LOL. 
Thanks for the detail… I think that just requires more craftsmanship (and tools) than I have. 


I’ll look at my seats sometime soon, though. Maybe I can come up with an alternative that won’t require so much work on my part. If I had the means to do as you’ve suggested I’d give it a go, though.


----------



## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*



jbholsters said:


> If I'm looking at those pics correctly, you should be able to just mass load the hell out of the steel sheet metal in the seat back. I would also mass load the metal rails and the plasic while panel on the seat bottom. You could just use 4/5 layers of Damplifier Pro or Dynamat Extreme.


That or just do some sort of sandwiching?

I'll have to look at my seats. The link I posted doesn’t really do me much good as I can’t tell where things are at exactly.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

yeah, anything you can do that will absorb energy. It may work somewhat without it being attached per say, but getting it mechanically or metallurgically (welded) attached would be a more ideal solution.


----------



## jbholsters (Jun 17, 2009)

*Re: Just spent an hour tuning and still can't get the subbass to get "in front" of me*

I only went that far since it was a competion car, not that I ran it through line much LOL. I never liked competing in shows that I judged. Made a great demo car for the shop though. I wish I still had my pix of it.


----------

