# Helix vs. Jl audio dsp



## carmenjeff (Mar 26, 2011)

If I change out my Jl audio twk-88 to a Helix mini all else being equal, would I hear a difference in SQ? Thanks


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

depends on the tuning, but just exchanging like for like, you won't notice a difference. what makes you want to change it? if things aren't sounding right it's probably tuning first (since you have a DSP already) , install second, and equipment last ...


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Absolutely you will hear a difference. I went from twk88 to dsp.3. The first day I just set the channel levels, TA, and crossovers just so I would have sound before I got to tune it and with zero eq adjustments the helix sounded much better than the JL twk88. Not sure how or why but it did. I asked a few people what happened and how could it and they said because helix has better internals and processor. It was shocking to me a untuned helix sounded better than a tune I worked on for 6 months


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Selkec said:


> Absolutely you will hear a difference. I went from twk88 to dsp.3. The first day I just set the channel levels, TA, and crossovers just so I would have sound before I got to tune it and with zero eq adjustments the helix sounded much better than the JL twk88. Not sure how or why but it did. I asked a few people what happened and how could it and they said because helix has better internals and processor. It was shocking to me a untuned helix sounded better than a tune I worked on for 6 months


Idk what it is, but I do not find JL electronics to sound good at all.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> Idk what it is, but I do not find JL electronics to sound good at all.


I hard second this. Going back to the v1 slashes. I just started working at the jl dealer and could not wait. Got the 300/4 and 500/1. 
The 500/1 was ok but the 300 sounded idk off. 
I had listened to Keiths little cube that had the "new" c5 3 ways and they had this...idk how to explain it...i thought the midrange was just heavy or Keith just listened to a lot of talk radio and therefore did a tune...you know for talking. 
But then my truck sounded like that and all did was swap amps. P80 hu...THE **** to have back in like 2013. 
Jls new jd? Line i think. They sound pretty ok. Especially the 1000/1. But they are only like 250 a pop so jl prolly just put their name on it.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

I have literally swapped out my JL twk88 for a Helix DSP and set everything the same and I could not tell a difference. I think you guys are fooling yourselves if you think you can, lol. Now the helix is a more powerful DSP, but do you really need it?

I have a Helix P six MK2 on the way and I’ll put it up on my bench against my JL Vxi 800/8i using my amplifier switching device and I bet you I cant tell a difference.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

JCsAudio said:


> I have literally swapped out my JL twk88 for a Helix DSP and set everything the same and I could not tell a difference. I think you guys are fooling yourselves if you think you can, lol. Now the helix is a more powerful DSP, but do you really need it?
> 
> I have a Helix P six MK2 on the way and I’ll put it up on my bench against my JL Vxi 800/8i using my amplifier switching device and I bet you I cant tell a difference.


I haven't used either dsp. So i dont know how they sound. 
Im looking at picking one of the two up and since i dont care for their amps i was looking for someone to say this. 
I haven't had a chance to listen to the vxi either. I was also dismissing them based on prior experience. 
But im about to order the twk....if i dont like crutchfeild will take of me for sure. 
But....the whole ordeal is gonna be your fault. So if you wanna stop me.....


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## chrisp2493 (Apr 18, 2021)

Selkec said:


> Absolutely you will hear a difference. I went from twk88 to dsp.3. The first day I just set the channel levels, TA, and crossovers just so I would have sound before I got to tune it and with zero eq adjustments the helix sounded much better than the JL twk88. Not sure how or why but it did. I asked a few people what happened and how could it and they said because helix has better internals and processor. It was shocking to me a untuned helix sounded better than a tune I worked on for 6 months


I haven’t eq’d my helix yet either and it sounds really good. I had a TwK88 before also. Went from a Rockford Punch amp and TwK, to a zapco amp and helix DSP, just did some time alignment and brought the tweets up to match and it sounds better then the tune in the twk. More power from the zapco probably helped a lot too


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## chrisp2493 (Apr 18, 2021)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> I haven't used either dsp. So i dont know how they sound.
> Im looking at picking one of the two up and since i dont care for their amps i was looking for someone to say this.
> I haven't had a chance to listen to the vxi either. I was also dismissing them based on prior experience.
> But im about to order the twk....if i dont like crutchfeild will take of me for sure.
> But....the whole ordeal is gonna be your fault. So if you wanna stop me.....


I have a TwK for sale in the classifieds


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

chrisp2493 said:


> I haven’t eq’d my helix yet either and it sounds really good. I had a TwK88 before also. Went from a Rockford Punch amp and TwK, to a zapco amp and helix DSP, just did some time alignment and brought the tweets up to match and it sounds better then the tune in the twk. More power from the zapco probably helped a lot too


Jeeeeeeez....you swapped more than one thing at a time....


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

chrisp2493 said:


> I have a TwK for sale in the classifieds


Going new man. So easy with crutchfeilds return policy. But ill bump ya in a min


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## chrisp2493 (Apr 18, 2021)

The helix definitely has a much steeper learning curve. The JL is very easy to use, the helix, I spent quite a few hours getting things set up just to get sound out of it. There are way more options and menus to go through and set. One of the guys commenting above helped me out big time with getting it setup. Not impossible, but not exactly plug and play


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

chrisp2493 said:


> The helix definitely has a much steeper learning curve. The JL is very easy to use, the helix, I spent quite a few hours getting things set up just to get sound out of it. There are way more options and menus to go through and set. One of the guys commenting above helped me out big time with getting it setup. Not impossible, but not exactly plug and play


Thats what the owner of the shop i work at said when showed him the twk software. 
He is from the 90s. When 12 12s in the bed of s10s was a thing. 
500 watt blow throughs were spl oriented. You know....


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

DSPs are very finicky and must be designed very well as any small problem is then amplified by the amplifier.

Helix mixes good engineering with understanding of great sound and features people want. Helix has 31 eq bands, twk has I believe 10… Helix uses asahi kasei DAC and ADCs, Texas Instruments op amps, things that people claim make small differences… which is a lot of the time is true… if you are testing just that single component.

But when you start stacking things up one after another they combine to create something larger. I have went through 5 different DSPs and the helix is by far the clearest most natural sounding, combined with my favorite set of features and lastly but one of the most important things (if you have used cheap DSPs with problems you will understand)..they just work, it’s like an IPhone it just ****ing works yes it’s expensive but it just works and it works great!

anyways JL products are weird to me.. they are very well built for the most part but I also was never super impressed with the sound when comparing to other similarly priced products…. things like the XD series sounding way better to me than their higher end HD series just throws me off… like how? Some people disagree, That’s just my opinion take it for what it’s worth.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

JCsAudio said:


> I have literally swapped out my JL twk88 for a Helix DSP and set everything the same and I could not tell a difference. I think you guys are fooling yourselves if you think you can, lol. Now the helix is a more powerful DSP, but do you really need it?
> 
> I have a Helix P six MK2 on the way and I’ll put it up on my bench against my JL Vxi 800/8i using my amplifier switching device and I bet you I cant tell a difference.


Also, it's pretty easy to say "yeah no, I don't hear a difference." If I recall correctly from a Facebook post, there's money on the line?

I'm ready when you are 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

SkizeR said:


> Idk what it is, but I do not find JL electronics to sound good at all.



If that's the case. Why is it they out sell just about all the boutique brands you boys sell?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

evo9 said:


> If that's the case. Why is it they out sell just about all the boutique brands you boys sell?


What kind of silly question is that? I guess that would mean Skar is better than JL, and anything else else that matter since they pretty much crushed everything else in sales the past couple years... Seems more like a way to vent your frustrations with me than anything lol. How cute. 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> I haven't used either dsp. So i dont know how they sound.
> Im looking at picking one of the two up and since i dont care for their amps i was looking for someone to say this.
> I haven't had a chance to listen to the vxi either. I was also dismissing them based on prior experience.
> But im about to order the twk....if i dont like crutchfeild will take of me for sure.
> But....the whole ordeal is gonna be your fault. So if you wanna stop me.....


Lol, I cant stop you and wont. Your ability to install everything correctly, and especially your ability to tune is going to make the biggest difference. hardware differences are there but are minute (but the jury is out right now). The Helix DSP’s are better in terms of offering more features and adjustability to the user but with that comes a more complicated tuning process and difficulty in setting it up. The input EQ along on the HELIX is worth a lot when OEM integration is part of the install. If you are a serious 1% enthusiast and plan to compete, or are willing to put in the effort to get that last 5% then by all means get the HELIX. If you want a qaulity DSP that doesn't break the bank, is easy to learn how to use, and offers great SQ then get the JL. If you want to wait for my tests then, well.... We will see what happens then.

One thing Ive learned here over the years is taking the word from an internet enthusiast with limited experience as gospel may lead to something that has more to do with their beliefs than actual differences. This is why I run my own tests now. For example, when I test two amplifiers on my rig and know which one is playing I almost always pick the one that I believe is better, but when I do not know which one is playing then often I cannot tell a difference unless there is a real difference. Your mind plays tricks on you and it is not reliable.



SkizeR said:


> Also, it's pretty easy to say "yeah no, I don't hear a difference." If I recall correctly from a Facebook post, there's money on the line?
> 
> I'm ready when you are
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


I remember Nick, but that was your bet, not mine, lol. I know who you are and I know your experience (and respect it because its way more than mine) and since I’m a relatively smart person and I’ve been around for a while, I also have the wisdom to not put myself in that situation without arming myself with more knowledge/proof. As I said to you at a meet last year, I have lots of experience with some very talented people because of what I do. The jury is still out and that is why I made my own testing rig. So after I test this for myself in the comfort of my own home, I can then arm myself with the knowledge to say there is, or is not a real difference worth making bets on.  . Based on what I’ve done thus far though, I’m skeptical. It is also fun to do these tests and also let others experience it so hopefully there will be a meet near me where I can give others that opportunity to do so.


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

SkizeR said:


> What kind of silly question is that? I guess that would mean Skar is better than JL, and anything else else that matter since they pretty much crushed everything else in sales the past couple years... Seems more like a way to vent your frustrations with me than anything lol. How cute.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


Don't be an ass little man. You said their products don't sound good. So I asked you with your infinite wisdom and golden ears. Why this not so great sounding company is racking in over 70 mil per year? You also indicated that AF is also rubbish. Or was it Andy W that is rubbish? Hear is a free advice. *Sound is subjective* 

I probably should not waste my time reading or reply to your bias sales pitch. After all you are the guy who said you won't sell brand X because the mark up on the product is too high .


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

We were talking about this over on CAJ - and like I mentioned there, I really do think that whatever DSP you use first - and get used to - is the one that you will always think is "easier to use". 

For example, I used and learned the Helix DSP.3 first. Then, when I went to help someone tune a JL vxi amp (TUN software), I thought that it was much harder to use.  Yes, there are a lot of screens on the Helix due to how powerful and flexible it is, but really, other than the routing setup, everything else you need for tuning is on one single screen is so "intuitive" to me. All of the other screens on the Helix are for one-time setup items, software preferences, etc. Whereas, I found the TUN interface to be overly complex and confusing (routing is ugly with these long lines and + symbols you have to "link" and follow the lines to understand what inputs go to which outputs, little checkboxes that aren't labeled as to their function, etc. I just find it more cumbersome compared to the Helix interface. The Helix routing screen is drag-and-drop and really couldn't be any simpler, IMO.

I just find the Helix software so much cleaner and easier to understand and use. But again, that may simply be because I learned the Helix software first. I may think the exact opposite if I had used and gotten used to the JL TUN software first.


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## Likeabat (Aug 19, 2020)

JCsAudio said:


> I have literally swapped out my JL twk88 for a Helix DSP and set everything the same and I could not tell a difference. I think you guys are fooling yourselves if you think you can, lol.


I can’t remember if it was this forum or another I frequent but I remember a guy saying vocals sounded “warmer” after swapping to some high end RCA cables. 🙄🤣

There is a lot of “placebo” effect in car audio. I take a lot of what I read with a whole shaker of salt.


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

Likeabat said:


> I can’t remember if it was this forum or another I frequent but I remember a guy saying vocals sounded “warmer” after swapping to some high end RCA cables. 🙄🤣
> 
> *There is a lot of “placebo” effect in car audio. I take a lot of what I read with a whole shaker of salt.*



Exactly!
There are products that will help in certain situation. Sometimes when dealing with poor implementation/installation. But for the most part, there are a lot of BS artist on these forums. Not to mention the bias sales men waiting to capitalize on the weak. So yeah.... Take some of the stuff with a whole shaker of salt.

Or the Bonneville Salt Flats if you have to


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## GrM (Feb 11, 2021)

Just my $0.02 (without reading this entire thread), yes the helix undoubtedly has better hardware than the TwK. However, it’s the software that’s the only real difference, unless you’re down to splitting hairs with your system. helixes software is much more comprehensive and most importantly it has all-pass filters (I could be mistaken about this particular model, but I believe all Audiotec Fischer products use the same software) whereas the TwK does not.
If I were you I’d check out the software and do as much research as you can. If you think the software alone is a reason to get it then get it, if not put the money towards something else.

personally I really wanted Helixes 8ch DSP amp because of its software but I ended up going with a VXi because I would have had to make a 12 hour round trip toget one (not counting traveling in NYC). Or get one via the guy selling them new on eBay. That and I’d have had to sell my MacBook and get a PC, would have set me back a few hundred (but if I could easily have acquired a Helix I would have). I haven’t given up on a Helix but it’ll have to wait until the VXi dies.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

evo9 said:


> Don't be an ass little man. You said their products don't sound good. So I asked you with your infinite wisdom and golden ears. Why this not so great sounding company is racking in over 70 mil per year? You also indicated that AF is also rubbish. Or was it Andy W that is rubbish? Hear is some free advice. *Sound is subjective*
> 
> I probably should not waste my time reading or reply to your bias sales pitch. After all you are the guy who said you won't sell brand X because the mark up on the product is too high .


Little man.. lol. I honestly do not recall ever having any interaction with you, so I'm not sure what your problem is with me. If you have one, feel free to PM me and we can chat on the phone. If you don't pm me regarding it, I'll just assume I mistook your tone and will gladly shake your hand if we ever meet. But anyways, I'll make the layout of this easy for you to respond to so we can keep this organized.

1) I did not say all of their products don't sound good. I said their electronics. All of their amps and processors (minus the slash, its been a while since I've used one much less had a handful of cars with them) don't sound so hot. This is not something new and you can do some searching on this forum and you can see many others who agree. Don't agree? That's fine. I didn't say you had to. This isn't a totalitarian forum lol. But I do have a ton of experience with their product considering I used to work for a JL dealer before I opened my own shop. The reliability (IN MY EXPERIENCE) isn't great on them either. In the recent years, I've had 3 cars between 2 different customers supply me with 6 or 7 JL HD (and one XD amplifiers). Only one of those didn't exhibit problems related to their input section and needed repairs or in some cases just flat out swapped. (We no longer install customer supplied gear due to situations like these). 

2) I'll pretend that you're halfway educated on the topic, because you seem to have been here a while and probably know the general ins and outs of car audio... stop playing stupid to strengthen your argument. You know damn well performance has nothing to do with sales lol. This has to do with a few things. Knowing the market and catering to it, and a VERY strong dealer network with incentives to be a dealer of theirs. Ill let you in on a hint.. pick a shop, any shop outside of specialty shops such as my own. I promise you that sound quality isn't even on the top 3 reasons they sell X brand. 

3) Where did I say that AF is rubbish? I said their owner is rubbish. This, is what it is. Over the past year, Andy has become an insufferable ego-maniac to satisfy his own loneliness. The products are fine outside of some QC issues that he refuses to believe. 


Free advice is great and all, but the problem is, it ain't worth much 

Sound is absolutely 100% not subjective. A reproduced signal is either accurate to the input signal, or it is not accurate. If it is not 100% accurate (it never will be), how far off from the input signal is the difference. What your prefer on the other hand, 100% is subjective. There is a big difference between the two. 


Seriously, send me a PM and let me know what's up. Clearly you have something against me. Let's figure it out. 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

JCsAudio said:


> I remember Nick, but that was your bet, not mine, lol.


Ahh dang it lol

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

jtrosky said:


> We were talking about this over on CAJ - and like I mentioned there, I really do think that whatever DSP you use first - and get used to - is the one that you will always think is "easier to use".
> 
> For example, I used and learned the Helix DSP.3 first. Then, when I went to help someone tune a JL vxi amp (TUN software), I thought that it was much harder to use.  Yes, there are a lot of screens on the Helix due to how powerful and flexible it is, but really, other than the routing setup, everything else you need for tuning is on one single screen is so "intuitive" to me. All of the other screens on the Helix are for one-time setup items, software preferences, etc. Whereas, I found the TUN interface to be overly complex and confusing (routing is ugly with these long lines and + symbols you have to "link" and follow the lines to understand what inputs go to which outputs, little checkboxes that aren't labeled as to their function, etc. I just find it more cumbersome compared to the Helix interface. The Helix routing screen is drag-and-drop and really couldn't be any simpler, IMO.
> 
> I just find the Helix software so much cleaner and easier to understand and use. But again, that may simply be because I learned the Helix software first. I may think the exact opposite if I had used and gotten used to the JL TUN software first.



My first DSP was an Audio Control DXS back in 02. That was replaced by an Alto Mobile drive 30, then replaced by the UCS Pro. From the first to the 3rd there was audible improvements. But it had to do more with the higher capability from one to the other. The DXS had no software like the two Alto pieces. It was not a steep learning curve as I expected on the Alto pieces. The Alto's were replaced by the Zapco DSP6. The DSP6 software was relatively easy to use from what I can remember. Once the bugs were worked out on the Bit One, I jumped on that band wagon. That software too was pretty much straight forward. The Bit One was replaced by an Alpine PXA-H800. That was another easy software to navigate. As for the sound improvements from the Zapco to Bit One to the Alpine, there was really not much to rave about. I gained more on each units expandability. 

I currently have an Audio Control DM810 and Helix DSP Ultra to be installed in each of my cars. I choose those due to the ease of the software. I wanted to go with the Mosconi Gladen Aerospace, but at the time found the available software undesirable. They have since updated it so I might replace the DM810.


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

evo9 said:


> If that's the case. Why is it they out sell just about all the boutique brands you boys sell?


this is one of the dumbest post of 2021 and that says a lot


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Porsche said:


> this is one of the dumbest post of 2021 and that says a lot


I think you and I both know that he knows how silly that comment is. He just wants to prove... something? Still waiting for him to message me and let me know whats up. 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

GrM said:


> Just my $0.02 (without reading this entire thread), yes the helix undoubtedly has better hardware than the TwK. However, it’s the software that’s the only real difference, unless you’re down to splitting hairs with your system. helixes software is much more comprehensive and most importantly it has all-pass filters (I could be mistaken about this particular model, but I believe all Audiotec Fischer products use the same software) whereas the TwK does not.
> If I were you I’d check out the software and do as much research as you can. If you think the software alone is a reason to get it then get it, if not put the money towards something else.
> 
> personally I really wanted Helixes 8ch DSP amp because of its software but I ended up going with a VXi because I would have had to make a 12 hour round trip toget one (not counting traveling in NYC). Or get one via the guy selling them new on eBay. That and I’d have had to sell my MacBook and get a PC, would have set me back a few hundred (but if I could easily have acquired a Helix I would have). I haven’t given up on a Helix but it’ll have to wait until the VXi dies.


FYI it is interesting to note that the VXi amplifier DSP does have all pass filters, whereas the TWK 88 (which also uses the Tun software) does not. seems the VXi is the way to go.


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## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

I've noticed something I would like to mention about alot of DSP manufacturers. 

DSP's like I mentioned before are very finnicky and have alot of things that all need to be operating correctly at the right time for the sound to some out without noise, humm, coloration, distortion, etc. 

Some companies make a product, then they continue to sell that same revision of the product for years and years. Even when there are problems that need to be addressed. You can update software, which is also very important, but hardware updating it takes money and re tooling production, new board design , etc. Another common thing amoung alot of DSPs is to see low RCA output voltage. Some amps you dont need alot, but say Rockford Fosgate, Zapco LX, AP or TRU amps.. you want powerful line voltage to keep your gains low as their input sensitivity is 8v or more. Use a DSP with low output voltage then you turn your gains up and hear a humm/hiss when your volume is turned down. Its not good.

Audiocontrol, needs to update their DSPs to more powerful processors so they can have a parametric EQ on them. People have asked for years and they have not done this which likely means they are hardware limited. This is the reason alot of DSPs only have 10 EQ bands per channel, the designers are out of processing power available...

JL Audio, same thing, only 10 EQ bands. Yes alot of people wont need it, but in my car on my midwoofers i use like 15 bands. I think the TWK output voltage is 4v RMS so its a OK product, but not close to any Helix DSP.

Helix releases new revisions of their DSP's more than any other company. They have been improving software constantly and hardware more often than anyone else. Pro MK2 and ultra has 8v RMS output voltage while the lower/older models still have a respectable 6v RMS.

Why do alot of companies skimp on the output voltage? Because their circuits are **** and the extra gain creates noise. If you have a well designed circuit with high quality components and power supply filtering, etc. You can have high output voltage with no audible noise. ARC PS8, Audiocontrol, Mosconi, and Helix are the only ones I know that have 8v+ RMS output voltage but Audiocontrol doesnt have the Parametric EQ, Mosconi software is horrific, and the ARC.. is cool, I would actually use the ARC but I need more than 8 channels. They say you can link them together but you cant use one remote on two of them so yeah... 


Thats some of the problems I have went through and why I will stick with a Helix DSP... it was out of necessity, I was not a believer i thought why the heck woud someone pay this much for a DSP? No way I will ever be that dumb... I fought it by trying multiuple other products to try and save $ but they all fell short in one way or another. After months of research and products failing I developed a new respect and understanding for the amount of work and engineering it took to create a high quality DSP and that is where I am at today.


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Now there are some good reasons listed on why to choose one DSP over the other by @cman . Well said there sir and I forgot about the DSP line voltage > than 4 volts being an asset when trying to set gain structures as low as possible but still get the power required. 

I cant say having only 10 bands of EQ per channel has been an issue for me but I have three way fronts in two of the three vehicles so its easier to tune vs a two way where the need for more than 10 bands per channel could be needed on the midbass. I cant say I’ve had any noise issues with the three vehicles I’m running JL product in that are the fault of JL product but having a higher voltage output would lower the noise floor slightly if the input signal was clean. 

Last thing to consider is the HELIX DSP is more than 2x the price, so not exactly an apples to apples comparison when it comes to features and processing power. I would agree though that in the hands of the professional installer the HELIX is better. I would say for the average enthusiast the JL offers a lot for the money and has very good SQ. 

For someone like Nick who does high end installations for a living and does not want comebacks, the Audiotec Fischer products are better for him and allow him to get the fullest potential from the product with his skill set.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

An apples-to-apples comparison from an installer's perspective would be looking at the lines as a whole. I had a long thing typed out, but tbh, I don't think its even worth posting anymore. The long and short is, the lines as a whole are hardly comparable. They can both get the job done (at least most of the time for one), but they are just two totally different leagues.


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## Bass Face (May 31, 2021)

What an interesting discussion. I was actually facing the same dilemma between JL and Helix DSP. Interestingly enough I was also on the fence about Audiofrog. For me, I guess ignorance is bliss. I really like the value proposition that JL brings, in addition to their time in existence. They are very mainstream and a larger organization that has been around since the 1970s. To me that says something in the ever evolving car audio space. Sure there are lesser companies that have probably been around longer but I guess mainstream production has it's ups and downs.

My final decision was to move forward with JL DSP and amps with AF speakers. After the build is complete and tuned to my liking, I will probably be satisfied. I will likely never hear or care to hear a Helix unit in my setup. Could the Helix possibly sound better? Sure absolutely, but I won't ever hear one in action. I won't actively pursue it. Additionally, sound is very subjective. Do your own homework and buy what makes you comfortable. There really is no apples to apples comparison in this case. 

Side Note: Nick @SkizeR you the man. Thanks for always being real and real in a respectful way.


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## GrM (Feb 11, 2021)

vactor said:


> FYI it is interesting to note that the VXi amplifier DSP does have all pass filters, whereas the TWK 88 (which also uses the Tun software) does not. seems the VXi is the way to go.


But it doesn’t have shelf filters. Easier to live without than all-pass but still,… another reason to go with Helix if availability isn’t an issue.


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

GrM said:


> But it doesn’t have shelf filters. Easier to live without than all-pass but still,… another reason to go with Helix if availability isn’t an issue.


VXi has high and low shelf filters too


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## BillDaCat8 (Dec 6, 2020)

Clearly this is a hot af topic. 

I’m definitely no expert here. I’ll contribute this tho. JL and their VXi amps got my money. Having the dsp integrated with the amp was what sold me. The install was easy and clean. I was able to grasp their software well enough to be able to tune my system myself. Albeit with the help of a couple of very well written tutorials. 

That being said, I’ve never been happier with any system that I’ve done than this one. I think it sounds fantastic. Could it be even better? Probably. But, to me and my 49 year old ears, I honestly don’t care. 

Now, had I gone Helix from the get go, would I feel the same? Probably. My install would’ve been slightly more involved as I don’t think they offer any dsp integrated amps. And as others have said, the software is a bit more on the complex side. 
Another thought: What would I have spent? I’m running a VX700/5i. It was basically $1k to my door. I haven’t looked at the Helix site in a while. But, what would a comparable dsp/amp setup cost?


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## PaperLion (Aug 15, 2019)

BillDaCat8 said:


> Clearly this is a hot af topic.
> 
> I’m definitely no expert here. I’ll contribute this tho. JL and their VXi amps got my money. Having the dsp integrated with the amp was what sold me. The install was easy and clean. I was able to grasp their software well enough to be able to tune my system myself. Albeit with the help of a couple of very well written tutorials.
> 
> ...


They do make dsp integrated amps. I don't think those are expensive as comparable vxi amps.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

PaperLion said:


> They do make dsp integrated amps. I don't think those are expensive as comparable vxi amps.


comparing 8 channel vs 8 channel, the helix stuff costs less


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> comparing 8 channel vs 8 channel, the helix stuff costs less


I think everything is...the 8 channel is over 1500 after tax.....


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## Bass Face (May 31, 2021)

I have seen an interesting pattern across my years on this forum lurking. I've seen gear brands hit peak popularity and then completely fall flat regardless of how good or bad the gear is. For example, few years back Image Dynamics was a massive forum boner name. It was doing great up until the owner of ID and one specific very popular shop at that time had a falling out. The shop owners narrative completely changed from I love this gear to all of a sudden it's not good just by virtue of the relationships. This unfortunately was and is happening a whole lot. The point I'm making is often times a professional opinion of gear is backed by relationships, possible incentives to sell gear, and a slew of other things that may benefit a shop. By no way am I saying this is wrong, at the end everyone's got to eat. Just goes back to doing your own research and due diligence. Leverage the forum as a tool of reference but not necessarily the main driver. 

Final point, Helix might by the talk of the town right now. And I'm certain they make a fabulous product. But all it takes is that one bad relationship with a set of large players. JL on the other hand, if the continue to push funding to their R&D and make a decent commercial product that is readily available without having to jump through hoops and a decent price, they will be fine. They are large enough now as they function on a big box level and have corporate relationships instead of key shop dependency. I digress.


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## BillDaCat8 (Dec 6, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> comparing 8 channel vs 8 channel, the helix stuff costs less


Curious. What would a P SIX DSP cost me? 

Can the Helix dsp/amps be bridged to run a sub from a pair of channels? Doesn’t look like it. IIRC that was a dealbreaker for me.

I also find it very convenient to be able to just open up my iPad and tune the system wirelessly. Not sure that’s an option with our friends from Deutschland. (I ordered the BTC along with the VXi. That was part of the 1k initial purchase.) 

Looking at things. I think that the P SIX DSP is the closest dsp amp they offer to mine. And the specs are quite impressive really. The thing is a beast. At 2ohms, the E-F channels are both worth 230w. Not bad at all. But, alas, not bridgeable. 

As for the software. Which is what I believe this thread is actually about; I only have experience with the Tün. It was/is intuitive enough that I was able to make it work. I’d be lying if I said it was “easy” tho. At least not initially. The consensus seems to be that the Helix is a bit more complex.

For my next system (65 Continenal) I’ll seriously consider the Helix stuff. I really don’t think you can go wrong with either setup tho.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Bass Face said:


> I have seen an interesting pattern across my years on this forum lurking. I've seen gear brands hit peak popularity and then completely fall flat regardless of how good or bad the gear is. For example, few years back Image Dynamics was a massive forum boner name. It was doing great up until the owner of ID and one specific very popular shop at that time had a falling out. The shop owners narrative completely changed from I love this gear to all of a sudden it's not good just by virtue of the relationships. This unfortunately was and is happening a whole lot. The point I'm making is often times a professional opinion of gear is backed by relationships, possible incentives to sell gear, and a slew of other things that may benefit a shop. By no way am I saying this is wrong, at the end everyone's got to eat. Just goes back to doing your own research and due diligence. Leverage the forum as a tool of reference but not necessarily the main driver.
> 
> Final point, Helix might by the talk of the town right now. And I'm certain they make a fabulous product. But all it takes is that one bad relationship with a set of large players. JL on the other hand, if the continue to push funding to their R&D and make a decent commercial product that is readily available without having to jump through hoops and a decent price, they will be fine. They are large enough now as they function on a big box level and have corporate relationships instead of key shop dependency. I digress.


my relationship started with Helix as a hobbyist, where I also used the bit one, minidsp, zapco dc, H800, and a couple more. Once I started working for a shop, I signed them up to deal with the local helix rep. We started using them due to me pushing for it, because I knew what the potential was and what the product was vs the other options (this shop was doing a lot of bit ones back then). Then I left there and started working out of my driveway. Could have gotten a few brands of dsp's from a local distributor, but was paying full price for Helix DSP's and selling them to my customers for no profit for a bit because I knew they were that much better. I still to this day stick to helix, due to how well it performs and everything else about the product. In this time, US distribution changed 3 times, local reps changed 4 times. For me, this is about the product and the product only. My business is based on high-end audio. A new small business such as my own isn't big enough yet to just go for the money makers and deal with their BS. I need to deliver on every job, period. The Helix stuff does just that.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

BillDaCat8 said:


> Curious. What would a P SIX DSP cost me?
> 
> Can the Helix dsp/amps be bridged to run a sub from a pair of channels? Doesn’t look like it. IIRC that was a dealbreaker for me.
> 
> ...


The P Six mk2 has a list price of $1500 (yes, more than the V Eight Mk2. This is due to the DSP and amplifier modules are different). They are not brigeable since they are actually already internally bridged. But they have processed outputs. Just send that to a mono amp of your choice and there ya go.


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

It would be nice if Helix had a single amp that powered the regular speakers and the sub. I know multiple people that have went with JL or AudioControl simply because they can use a single device for everything - speaker amp, dsp and sub amp - all in one box. Just makes installation and setup a lot easier. Helix just don't have such a device - and that causes people to go elsewhere. I truly think that Helix is the superior product - but if they don't have a competing product, then people can't buy it from them. 

I know that I would like to have an "all in one" box, if possible (for example - 75W x 6 RMS and 500W x 1 RMS + DSP). Although, I'm personally willing to go with two separate amps too (separate sub amp) - would just prefer it all-in-one, if possible.


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

seems 7 channel amps will be the new hotness that 5 channel amps used too be


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## Bass Face (May 31, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> my relationship started with Helix as a hobbyist, where I also used the bit one, minidsp, zapco dc, H800, and a couple more. Once I started working for a shop, I signed them up to deal with the local helix rep. We started using them due to me pushing for it, because I knew what the potential was and what the product was vs the other options (this shop was doing a lot of bit ones back then). Then I left there and started working out of my driveway. Could have gotten a few brands of dsp's from a local distributor, but was paying full price for Helix DSP's and selling them to my customers for no profit for a bit because I knew they were that much better. I still to this day stick to helix, due to how well it performs and everything else about the product. In this time, US distribution changed 3 times, local reps changed 4 times. For me, this is about the product and the product only. My business is based on high-end audio. A new small business such as my own isn't big enough yet to just go for the money makers and deal with their BS. I need to deliver on every job, period. The Helix stuff does just that.


Yea, I can see that and how it makes sense. In the unlikely event you have a falling out with the Helix folks/management would you still promote their product?


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## Granite (Jun 3, 2020)

carmenjeff said:


> If I change out my Jl audio twk-88 to a Helix mini all else being equal, would I hear a difference in SQ? Thanks


I think you’ll hear a difference because there’s different AD/DA chips, different equipment on the boards, and different designs. 

Now whether you think that difference is a good thing is totally subjective. Usually the more money you spend, the better it sounds psychologically -because you convince yourself.

You could find out the truth though by doing a double blind A/B test.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

jtrosky said:


> It would be nice if Helix had a single amp that powered the regular speakers and the sub. I know multiple people that have went with JL or AudioControl simply because they can use a single device for everything - speaker amp, dsp and sub amp - all in one box. Just makes installation and setup a lot easier. Helix just don't have such a device - and that causes people to go elsewhere. I truly think that Helix is the superior product - but if they don't have a competing product, then people can't buy it from them.
> 
> I know that I would like to have an "all in one" box, if possible (for example - 75W x 6 RMS and 500W x 1 RMS + DSP). Although, I'm personally willing to go with two separate amps too (separate sub amp) - would just prefer it all-in-one, if possible.


They have the Match subs, which are quad 2 ohm. Get yourself a Helix V12 and you have 3 way plus rear, plus 600 watts on the sub. Or get any Dual 2-ohm sub and get 300 watts to it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Bass Face said:


> Yea, I can see that and how it makes sense. In the unlikely event you have a falling out with the Helix folks/management would you still promote their product?


Helix is literally the only brand I have a real problem with the idea of not working with.


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## Bass Face (May 31, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> Helix is literally the only brand I have a real problem with the idea of not working with.


Just curious, who's your second go to brand for amps and dsp?


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

SkizeR said:


> They have the Match subs, which are quad 2 ohm. Get yourself a Helix V12 and you have 3 way plus rear, plus 600 watts on the sub. Or get any Dual 2-ohm sub and get 300 watts to it.


The 6-channel one was just _my_ personal "want". The people that I mentioned - that wanted to go with a Helix DSP/Amp combo device, but couldn't - just wanted a 4-channel + sub amp/DSP device (that would work with their existing subs).

There are a couple of obvious issues with the V12 solution you mention above:

1. Price - the cost of a V12 - I'm guessing that it's close to $2k, if not more?
2. Requires at least a dual 2-ohm sub to actually work. 

Those two items will make it a non-starter for a lot of people.

JL has both amp-only and amp/dsp combo devices to handle these setups easily - at reasonable prices - and without having to potentially replace your sub. The people that I'm talking about really wanted a Helix DSP/Amp combo device for their 4-channel + sub setup - but *as far as I know*, Helix just doesn't offer such a thing (at anything near comparable cost - that would work with their existing subs). If there is some other Helix model (other than the V12) that could handle this, please do let me know!


JL has multiple 5-channel DSP/Amp combo devices that support 4-channels and a sub:

VX700/5i (~$1200) - 75W RMS x 4 at 4ohms (100W RMS x 4 at 2ohms) + 300W RMS x 1 at 2ohms
VX1000/5i (~$1400) - 75W RMS x 4 at 4ohms (100W RMS x 4 at 2ohms) + 600W RMS x 1 at 2ohms


AudioControl has this one:
- D-6.1200 (~$1200) - 125W RMS x 4 at 4ohms (200W RMS x 4 at 4ohms) + 400W RMS x 1 at 4ohms


Both people that I'm referring to actually ended up going with JL since their DSP is better (the AC DSP just sucks from my understanding). 

It would be nice if Helix had devices actually designed to support both regular speakers and subs - in the same device.


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## jheat2500 (Mar 1, 2021)

Find a local Helix dealer for prices. You should be able to purchase V12s for much less than $2k. If you're quoted MSRP, then move on to another dealer.

Edit:

Additionally, there are several different helix amplifiers with integrated dsp functions. Something like an M 4 dsp with a second amp would work for many people. Yes, you ultimately end up with two pieces of equipment versus a single unit, but paired with another small class D amp, most people should be able to make it work.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

jheat2500 said:


> Find a local Helix dealer for prices. You should be able to purchase V12s for much less than $2k. If you're quoted MSRP, then move on to another dealer.


LOL


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Bass Face said:


> Just curious, who's your second go to brand for amps and dsp?


I use no other dsp's anymore. Ive used about 20 different models of processors over the years. I see zero reason at this point to use anything else. It would be a step back as far as ease of install, as well as lower the overall performance of the build. For amps, we also use Mosconi. Our order of amps would be, from most price-friendly to pure performance.. Helix V8 or 12, Mosconi Pro, Helix C, Brax.


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Helix C over Mosconi Pro? Hmm. They sound that much better? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RyuTsuiSen (Jan 26, 2018)

MrGreen83 said:


> Helix C over Mosconi Pro? Hmm. That sound they much better?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No experience with either of those two amps, but I'm pretty sure the plexiglass makes the Helix C sound better 

In all seriousness, good thread read here, informative and interesting

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## jheat2500 (Mar 1, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> LOL


What's so funny?


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## Seadweller23 (Mar 21, 2021)

RyuTsuiSen said:


> In all seriousness, good thread read here, informative and interesting
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


I agree that this is a fascinating thread and I appreciate everyone’s perspective. I am most interested in the comments of the various DSP brand capabilities and user experience. This site has a bunch of posts about the Helix DSP. There is not as much on JL’s DSP. 

I have a VXI 1000/5I active system in my vehicle. I am really happy with it. From what I have learned on this forum, Helix makes a great DSP. 

I think the key is to find a quality DSP and get a shop that knows what they are doing to get a proper tune. If you know how to tune, all the better.


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## MrGreen83 (Jun 11, 2015)

Here’s a whole thread to thumb thru if u wanna hear all about the JL VXI stuff 









JL VXi amps


The new JL DSP amps just unveiled at Knowledgfest Indianapolis: https://www.facebook.com/jlaudio/videos/10160229660720523/ TuN 3.0 to come out soon. Mac support and mobile tablet support.




www.diymobileaudio.com






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seadweller23 (Mar 21, 2021)

MrGreen83 said:


> Here’s a whole thread to thumb thru if u wanna hear all about the JL VXI stuff
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, I have used that thread a lot. Manville Smith‘s comments in the thread were key to me going active with a VXI amp.


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## Hollywood (Dec 22, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> Our order of amps would be, from most price-friendly to pure performance.. Helix V8 or 12, Mosconi Pro, Helix C, Brax.


Which of those brands run the coolest? Is heat an issue on any of these? Can the v12 be mounted in a compartment in a trunk or would it need to be exposed in the open area to stay cool?
Thanks


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Hollywood said:


> Which of those brands run the coolest? Is heat an issue on any of these? Can the v12 be mounted in a compartment in a trunk or would it need to be exposed in the open area to stay cool?
> Thanks


The v8/12 and mosconi pro run the coolest. C4 idles pretty warm, but as you play it, it doesn't really get much warmer. The brax.... hot lol. Like painfully hot. But they handle it.


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## Hollywood (Dec 22, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> The v8/12 and mosconi pro run the coolest. C4 idles pretty warm, but as you play it, it doesn't really get much warmer. The brax.... hot lol. Like painfully hot. But they handle it.


Thank you!


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## TrashPanda (May 21, 2021)

Holy crap. Talk about audio porn. Reads like the “best of everything “









BRAX MX4 PRO


BRAX MATRIX MX4 PRO | 4-Channel Amplifier | Class AB | 4 x 300 Watts RMS at 4 Ohms | 4 x 240 Watts RMS at 2 Ohms | Bridged 2 x 480 Watt at 4 Ohms




www.audiotec-fischer.de


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

TrashPanda said:


> Holy crap. Talk about audio porn. Reads like the “best of everything “
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We're doing an install with all top-of-the-line gear soon that will feature a bunch of these along with their processor. Were gunna need a few fans lol


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> 3) Where did I say that AF is rubbish? I said their owner is rubbish. This, is what it is. Over the past year, Andy has become an insufferable ego-maniac to satisfy his own loneliness. The products are fine outside of some QC issues that he refuses to believe.


First, we take QC pretty seriously and when there's a mistake at the factory, we do our best to own the issues and make good. 

Second, you're a good fabricator and you seem to have a pretty good handle on tuning a Helix DSP and using most of REW. There's a lot more to audio than making beautiful panels and equalizing, but most products these days are good enough that a basic understanding is enough to get a guy who's been doing this for four or five years through most jobs. Keep experimenting and one day it'll all fall into place.


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## xray25P (Jun 19, 2021)

What about the audiocontrol dsp?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

GotFrogs said:


> First, we take QC pretty seriously and when there's a mistake at the factory, we do our best to own the issues and make good.


Then what is being done about the ****ty glue jobs? the slapping tinsel leads? the leads that arent long enough (which is actually why I wanted to buy one last set of GB12 to replace another set, which I didn't bother to warranty since you would just try to shame me instead of actually looking into it like every other time lol. coil and cone were fine. tinsel lead ripped and glue on the coil switch and part of the rubber covering the edge of the surround were peeling. All on one sub)..


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

xray25P said:


> What about the audiocontrol dsp?


to keep it short, dont bother


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> Then what is being done about the ****ty glue jobs? the slapping tinsel leads? the leads that arent long enough (which is actually why I wanted to buy one last set of GB12 to replace another set, which I didn't bother to warranty since you would just try to shame me instead of actually looking into it like every other time lol. coil and cone were fine. tinsel lead ripped and glue on the coil switch and part of the rubber covering the edge of the surround were peeling. All on one sub)..



Glue--basket tooling modified to add more surface area under the surround. Glue formulation changed. 
Slapping leads in some GS25--new positioning jig on the production line.
The lead between the outside edge of the spider and the switch hardly moves, but the lead was originally only soldered to the front of the PCB. It's now soldered on both sides and glued.

I'll be happy to provide warranty replacement for the customer, but not through you. 

Asking dealers to send speakers back to be checked isn't shaming. But why are you so worried about being shamed?


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

Thanks to the select few that have turned this thread, which was an interesting topic of conversation, into a total sh*t show. If you can't state an opinion without personally attacking someone why post? Show some respect and humility towards one another for crying out loud. I have interacted with two audio component company owners through this site. @GotFrogs and @Scott Buwalda. Both make outstanding products and both have been extremely helpful with my questions. Both have customer service that rates off the charts. I find it quite satisfying that they are willing to personally engage with us about their products. You got beef with someone take it to a private message or a phone call. No need to publicly bash each other or someone's business. As someone in business things may not always be 100% for everyone but its not the mistake so much as it is the response to the mistake. Thats what matters. Rant over.


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## Bass Face (May 31, 2021)

Dude, let them rock. I hope eventually they sort it out. I want to see Nick be an AudioFrog seller again. There is nothing wrong with either of their dialogue in this chat. I love the fact that they can professionally talk about this stuff. Just by virtue of their online transparency, I would be happy to do business with both parties. If airing it out like this ultimately gets both parties to connect, then so be it.


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

There was nothing professional about it, dude.


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## Bass Face (May 31, 2021)

I haven’t seen any intense profanity or anything like that. I used to be on this forum way back when and people would go in on each other like nobody’s business. To the point where threads would be locked users would be perma banned. Either this the peace maker types above have gotten ultra soft or my definition of professionalism is completely different. There is nothing “sh*t show” about this thread. 
Life Lesson: People will have grievances and have varying opinions. There will be colorful discussions. Good outcomes can come from those discussions.


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

Bass Face said:


> I haven’t seen any intense profanity or anything like that. I used to be on this forum way back when and people would go in on each other like nobody’s business. To the point where threads would be locked users would be perma banned. Either this the peace maker types above have gotten ultra soft or my definition of professionalism is completely different. There is nothing “sh*t show” about this thread.
> Life Lesson: People will have grievances and have varying opinions. There will be colorful discussions. Good outcomes can come from those discussions.


It’s the latter. You experience an issue or love a product then post about it. That’s what the forum is for. But personally attacking someone is uncalled for. You have a problem with a product then contact the company. The company’s response doesn’t satisfy you then tell us about it. But taking personal jabs is uncalled for. And I’m not just talking about interactions actions between company’s, vendors, and end users. I’m talking about regular forum members as well. It’s ok to disagree on any given subject but it doesn’t have to turn into personal insults. It’s not a good look as a person or as a business owner/vendor of a product. Does that analogy make me soft? But hey, you do you.


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Eatmore Bacon said:


> You have a problem with a product then contact the company. The company’s response doesn’t satisfy you then tell us about it.


That's just what nick did. Just so happened the owner of said company said something back. 
What about that scenario? Cause it's the only one that has happened and the only one you didn't say anything about.


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> 3) Where did I say that AF is rubbish? I said their owner is rubbish. This, is what it is. Over the past year, Andy has become an insufferable ego-maniac to satisfy his own loneliness. The products are fine outside of some QC issues that he refuses to believe.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


Guess you overlooked this?


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

Eatmore Bacon said:


> Guess you overlooked this?


No...Andy is here and present. He is also the owner. 
He can defend himself anyway he chooses. 
That is nicks opinion of him. The way in which the owner of a very prominent company handles that is just as important as the possibility of qc issues. Which were addressed professionally. 
This is more drama than that ever was.


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> No...Andy is here and present. He is also the owner.
> He can defend himself anyway he chooses.
> That is nicks opinion of him. The way in which the owner of a very prominent company handles that is just as important as the possibility of qc issues. Which were addressed professionally.
> This is more drama than that ever was.


Oh ok. I didn’t realize personal attacks were cool or professional. I stand corrected


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Pretty sure I haven't insulted anyone here, but considering the OP, this did go a bit off topic. Nick's online behavior cost him a brand and if that really didn't matter to him, he'd just let it go instead of calling me an insufferable egomaniac all over this forum, facebook reddit and wherever else.

As I mentioned before here and in other places. Nick is a good fabricator and a pretty good tuner. Integrating with factory systems requires a level of understanding that he doesn't seem to have to practice very often since his customer base is often interested in using a DAP or replacing the head unit. He seems to spend a lot of time and energy misrepresenting what I've tried for years to help people understand about making great sounding cars--I have primarily tried to help retailers do this work in a timely and predictable way because that's how they make a living, put their kids through school, buy food and take an occasional vacation. The DIY/Enthusiast perspective is a little different because it's a hobby and the continual experimentation is sometimes the objective. Nick suggests that what I try to teach is too basic to be useful to the experimenter, but those basics are really important in figuring out more complicated problems.

I don't really understand the maniacal focus on me, but hey. Maybe some kind of emotional problem. Calling me an insufferable piece of rubbish because I'm lonely seems silly to me. I dunno. When I was a kid, I behaved similarly and the guy I worked for at the time threatened me with my future and told me to go home and come back when I could be a different person. That was a wake up call that happened when I was about Nick's age. I'm thankful for that but I wasn't happy about it at the time. 

Nevertheless, Nick is one of many dealers who can do a nice job of building and tuning a great audio system. Most of the other ones don't have time for a YouTube channel.


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## carmenjeff (Mar 26, 2011)

GotFrogs said:


> Pretty sure I haven't insulted anyone here, but considering the OP, this did go a bit off topic. Nick's online behavior cost him a brand and if that really didn't matter to him, he'd just let it go instead of calling me an insufferable egomaniac all over this forum, facebook reddit and wherever else.
> 
> As I mentioned before here and in other places. Nick is a good fabricator and a pretty good tuner. Integrating with factory systems requires a level of understanding that he doesn't seem to have to practice very often since his customer base is often interested in using a DAP or replacing the head unit. He seems to spend a lot of time and energy misrepresenting what I've tried for years to help people understand about making great sounding cars--I have primarily tried to help retailers do this work in a timely and predictable way because that's how they make a living, put their kids through school, buy food and take an occasional vacation. The DIY/Enthusiast perspective is a little different because it's a hobby and the continual experimentation is sometimes the objective. Nick suggests that what I try to teach is too basic to be useful to the experimenter, but those basics are really important in figuring out more complicated problems.
> 
> ...


Hello Andy, You probably don't remember me, but I was the interested in your Calibrated Mic CD and I stopped by your warehouse and you traded me your Mic Kit for a brand new minidsp Umik-1 to get me going tuning my car. You left a great impression on me and I've told many people of that experience. You said It really doesn't matter the brand of equipment you have it's all about learning to Tune and proper installation. I believe you have left a great impression to many in the car audio community and given back in a way many owners of companies never will and I like many will not think otherwise no matter what anybody says. You have acted professional in this Thread and I wouldn't expect anything less. I appreciate all the feedback from everybody that took the time to contribute to this thread. I still have to take you up on the offer Andy, where you said you would help me Tune my car, If I was having issues, but I know your always busy.


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## Ayrton (Jan 17, 2006)

Can we get back to comparing DSP models? Where does miniDSP fall into this?


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## carmenjeff (Mar 26, 2011)

Ayrton said:


> Can we get back to comparing DSP models? Where does miniDSP fall into this?


the title says jl audio twk-88 vs. Helix, minidsp falls below both.


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

Ayrton said:


> Can we get back to comparing DSP models? Where does miniDSP fall into this?


I don't have any experience with the miniDSP but they sell quite a lot of them. Must not be too bad. I have a TWK-88 that I am listing in classifieds soon. I ordered a Helix DSP.3 today.


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## Ayrton (Jan 17, 2006)

carmenjeff said:


> the title says jl audio twk-88 vs. Helix, minidsp falls below both.


Perhaps you can explain how or why that is your opinion?


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## carmenjeff (Mar 26, 2011)

Ayrton said:


> Perhaps you can explain how or why that is your opinion?


Depends on the model your talking about, If your talking about the C-dsp 6x8 - jl audio twk-88 - first you have more inputs digital and rca, second higher output voltage and 11 selectable input voltages. Differential balanced inputs and the remote drc-200 is more flexible in programming and a few other things. Helix - more processing power and tuning flexibility just higher quality.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Bass Face said:


> Dude, let them rock. I hope eventually they sort it out. I want to see Nick be an AudioFrog seller again. There is nothing wrong with either of their dialogue in this chat. I love the fact that they can professionally talk about this stuff. Just by virtue of their online transparency, I would be happy to do business with both parties. If airing it out like this ultimately gets both parties to connect, then so be it.


I won't be. We have found more suitable replacements.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

GotFrogs said:


> As I mentioned before here and in other places. Nick is a good fabricator and a pretty good tuner. Integrating with factory systems requires a level of understanding that he doesn't seem to have to practice very often since his customer base is often interested in using a DAP or replacing the head unit.


Well this is pretty ignorant and shows how little you even paid attention to what we do. I cant even remember the last time we used a DAP in a customer's car. Looking back at our builds, we haven't used one since the corvette we did in march of 2020, and that DAP the owner just already had and we also integrated into the OEM system. Nearly every system, even if it does use a DAP, gets OEM integration or occasionally a traditional radio replacement. Looking back at our Facebook, 13 out of the past 16 builds have all had OEM integration. The other 3 were radio replacements. None featured a DAP.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

That said, i picked up a VXI the other day. Will be putting it on the bench with a helix and see whats up for myself, apples to apples.


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## Bass Face (May 31, 2021)

GotFrogs said:


> Pretty sure I haven't insulted anyone here, but considering the OP, this did go a bit off topic. Nick's online behavior cost him a brand and if that really didn't matter to him, he'd just let it go instead of calling me an insufferable egomaniac all over this forum, facebook reddit and wherever else.
> 
> As I mentioned before here and in other places. Nick is a good fabricator and a pretty good tuner. Integrating with factory systems requires a level of understanding that he doesn't seem to have to practice very often since his customer base is often interested in using a DAP or replacing the head unit. He seems to spend a lot of time and energy misrepresenting what I've tried for years to help people understand about making great sounding cars--I have primarily tried to help retailers do this work in a timely and predictable way because that's how they make a living, put their kids through school, buy food and take an occasional vacation. The DIY/Enthusiast perspective is a little different because it's a hobby and the continual experimentation is sometimes the objective. Nick suggests that what I try to teach is too basic to be useful to the experimenter, but those basics are really important in figuring out more complicated problems.
> 
> ...


Legitimately a stand up guy. Your approach and reasoning are sound and down to earth. I can appreciate that.


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## Bass Face (May 31, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> I won't be. We have found more suitable replacements.


BLAM FTW!!!


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## GrM (Feb 11, 2021)

vactor said:


> VXi has high and low shelf filters too


Hm. Thanks. Guess I’ve got some searching to do. I’d read they did when I decided to get it but couldn’t find it and google didn’t help. I guess I can add this to my list of “idiot mistakes etc.”.


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

GrM said:


> Hm. Thanks. Guess I’ve got some searching to do. I’d read they did when I decided to get it but couldn’t find it and google didn’t help. I guess I can add this to my list of “idiot mistakes etc.”.


As a current TWK88 owner I can attest to the lack of technical info on the web. YouTube has a few vids by a few guys. JL has had FB Live sessions on the TWK but they only cover setup. Not tuning with REW or troubleshooting.


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## carmenjeff (Mar 26, 2011)

Eatmore Bacon said:


> As a current TWK88 owner I can attest to the lack of technical info on the web. YouTube has a few vids by a few guys. JL has had FB Live sessions on the TWK but they only cover setup. Not tuning with REW or troubleshooting.


So what info on the web helped you be proficient in tuning the twk88?


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

Eatmore Bacon said:


> As a current TWK88 owner I can attest to the lack of technical info on the web. YouTube has a few vids by a few guys. JL has had FB Live sessions on the TWK but they only cover setup. Not tuning with REW or troubleshooting.


I’m not proficient, at all. I wanted to learn but ended up just having someone else tune it after I purchased the AF mic kit. I understand a lot more than I did before but I’m still not ready to tackle it on my own yet.


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

carmenjeff said:


> So what info on the web helped you be proficient in tuning the twk88?


And as one of my previous posts stated, I am moving to a Helix DSP.3 in a few weeks. Just waiting on it to arrive. I have been playing with the software in demo mode and the Helix software is pretty awesome


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## carmenjeff (Mar 26, 2011)

Eatmore Bacon said:


> I’m not proficient, at all. I wanted to learn but ended up just having someone else tune it after I purchased the AF mic kit. I understand a lot more than I did before but I’m still not ready to tackle it on my own yet.


Did you do in person or remote tuning?


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

I did a remote with the TWK but am doing an in person tune with the Helix. Same person. I intend to learn a good bit during the in person tune. But I will add that the remote tune was quite good. It all depends on the tuner, of course.


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## carmenjeff (Mar 26, 2011)

Eatmore Bacon said:


> I did a remote with the TWK but am doing an in person tune with the Helix. Same person. I intend to learn a good bit during the in person tune. But I will add that the remote tune was quite good. It all depends on the tuner, of course.


If you don’t mind, could you pm me the contact info for the remote tuner.


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## carmenjeff (Mar 26, 2011)

Eatmore Bacon said:


> I did a remote with the TWK but am doing an in person tune with the Helix. Same person. I intend to learn a good bit during the in person tune. But I will add that the remote tune was quite good. It all depends on the tuner, of course.


 may I ask why are you upgrading from the twk88?


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

carmenjeff said:


> If you don’t mind, could you pm me the contact info for the remote tuner.


Sure can.


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

carmenjeff said:


> may I ask why are you upgrading from the twk88?


The TWK is good. A good tuner can achieve really good sound from the TWK. I witnessed that first hand. The gentlemen that did my remote tune sparked my interest in Helix as he explained even though the TWK is good it’s not as good or great as the Helix due to the software. Helix can do a lot more with your sound than TWK. I could tell that just by fiddling with the demo software. It’s not too complicated either and their web site has some good tutorials on the different software pages and their use. 
I believe a good tuner can get really good sound out of any DSP. It just depends on how refined you want it to be. Maybe others will chime in.


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

SkizeR said:


> Well this is pretty ignorant and shows how little you even paid attention to what we do. I cant even remember the last time we used a DAP in a customer's car. Looking back at our builds, we haven't used one since the corvette we did in march of 2020, and that DAP the owner just already had and we also integrated into the OEM system. Nearly every system, even if it does use a DAP, gets OEM integration or occasionally a traditional radio replacement. Looking back at our Facebook, 13 out of the past 16 builds have all had OEM integration. The other 3 were radio replacements. None featured a DAP.


This is actually true. I haven't paid any attention.


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Why would I pay attention? After 35 years, what, besides happy customers, would be interesting about what you do?


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## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

carmenjeff said:


> If you don’t mind, could you pm me the contact info for the remote tuner.


I’ve also had tuning done by the same gentlemen, he is an excellent DSP tuner and a really good guy all around. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

Sirikenewtron said:


> I’ve also had tuning done by the same gentlemen, he is an excellent DSP tuner and a really good guy all around.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This. He is a really good dude.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

carmenjeff said:


> If you don’t mind, could you pm me the contact info for the remote tuner.


This is something I offer so long as its at night or early am


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## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

Eatmore Bacon said:


> This. He is a really good dude.


very down to earth as well which is huge to me when dealing with someone. Beyond reasonable price also, personally I don’t think he charges enough especially for all the after support he provides. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bass Face (May 31, 2021)

Sirikenewtron said:


> very down to earth as well which is huge to me when dealing with someone. Beyond reasonable price also, personally I don’t think he charges enough especially for all the after support he provides.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Who are you folks talking about? Reasonable priced, good at tuning, and nice!?


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## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Bass Face said:


> Who are you folks talking about? Reasonable priced, good at tuning, and nice!?


Bryce Hinton?


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## Bass Face (May 31, 2021)

GotFrogs said:


> Bryce Hinton?


If Bryce is for hire can you please pass along his contact information?


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## carmenjeff (Mar 26, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> This is something I offer so long as its at night or early am


I contacted you regarding


Sirikenewtron said:


> I’ve also had tuning done by the same gentlemen, he is an excellent DSP tuner and a really good guy all around.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i just contacted him and he’s a lot cheaper than other remote tuners and really nice, good availability too.


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

carmenjeff said:


> I contacted you regarding
> 
> i just contacted him and he’s a lot cheaper than other remote tuners and really nice, good availability too.


You won't be disappointed


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

If y’all are talking about Miguel you won’t be disappointed! Great guy and is knowledgeable. Go for it!


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

DaveG said:


> If y’all are talking about Miguel you won’t be disappointed! Great guy and is knowledgeable. Go for it!


Look, Dave. We are trying to keep this mystique thing going here. You can't just pop in and start slinging names around like that.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Eatmore Bacon said:


> Look, Dave. We are trying to keep this mystique thing going here. You can't just pop in and start slinging names around like that.


My bad! Should I edit?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Miguel Rios? Nice guy. Interesting that he's remote tuning now too.


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

DaveG said:


> My bad! Should I edit?


LOL. Its all good my friend.


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## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

It’s more of a hobby for him, he has a good regular 9-to-5 job. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bass Face (May 31, 2021)

I am starting to feel bamboozled a bit lol......

Are Bryce and Miguel the same person!???


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## x550ciLX (Jan 16, 2017)

Remote tuning is a tough gig. You're relying on the person on the other end to be competent enough to follow detailed instructions, and to have things set up to a particular usable standard before tuning starts. Usually, even during in-person tuning, the car needs to be fixed before anything can be done. Speakers out of phase, amp crossovers accidentally turned on, oem integration done incorrectly, etc etc etc. A good remote tuner knows how and when to ask these questions, and how to apply corrective action and/or instructions to the person on the other end.

If a "remote tuner" does happen to come across that rare someone with the microphone set up correctly, amp gains all the way down & crossovers off, input signal flat and useable, speakers wired correctly and installed in advantageous locations with proper resonance control, the process is pretty simple, as long as you keep it simple.

Unfortunately, most remote tuners are new guys who have tuned 10 cars, and fall into the same trap as "real world" tuners who tend to rely on high resolution measurements in order to chase a perfect target curve response in a single mic position. Spending 5 hours in order to justify whatever costs are involved.

If you choose to get a remote tune, be aware that they will likely not be able to tackle every issue present in the system. Part of the tuning process is verifying the outcome at the end. That requires a particular level of understanding and experience to know how things "should" sound considering the system spec.

Good remote tuners typically have tuned at least 100-200+ cars in real life. Nick is one of those, I believe. Bryce is one too. Unfortunately, once you reach that point of expertise and knowledge, your schedule gets filled up with highly profitable and audibly verifiable, local in-person tunes, so the remote tuning gets put on the backburner.


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## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

^^ amen to that. 
My Remote Tuning guy checks most all those boxes, more than a few times has had to tell people their system wasn't up to par or needed additional work. With that being said though it also worked out as a benefit to the person and they were able to get their system dialed in after being pointed in the direction by him. 
I was lucky enough to actually have an in person visit by him as well, he was able to verify his tuning that he did remotely, was pretty cool. 

I’ve definitely had a crappy remote tune in the past from someone else, great guy though, and apparently he “Learned from the best” The two different shops I had do tuning in person, who both were highly praised for their dsp tuning, were absolute garbage. Of course I know there's very good dsp tuners out there though. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

x550ciLX said:


> Unfortunately, most remote tuners are new guys who have tuned 10 cars


They seem to be guys that got the idea from me and also got one done from me to see what to do, then offer it themselves for whatever reason. The problem with remote tuning aside from not actually being able to see the setup and install is really knowing how to use measurements as effectively as possible, and also teaching someone how to use their ears and relay specific information to you, and quickly. If your remote tune guy is going purely off measurement then sending you on your way, there are still improvements to be made.


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

What a person hears is subjective. Measurements are not


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

SkizeR said:


> They seem to be guys that got the idea from me and also got one done from me to see what to do, then offer it themselves for whatever reason. The problem with remote tuning aside from not actually being able to see the setup and install is really knowing how to use measurements as effectively as possible, and also teaching someone how to use their ears and relay specific information to you, and quickly. If your remote tune guy is going purely off measurement then sending you on your way, there are still improvements to be made.


What do you charge for a remote tune Nick?


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## x550ciLX (Jan 16, 2017)

Eatmore Bacon said:


> What a person hears is subjective. Measurements are not


yeah, but it’s hard to get a measurement worth acting upon when the guy on the other side of the computer summed the wideband and midbass outputs in their Silverado with Bose with a fix82 or LC7i, and you have a huge dip in the response from the APF and the tuner is unaware, so they try to fix it with EQ.

that’s one example, but 80% of remote tuning is usually just a process of fixing problems and ensuring measurement integrity, then 20% is the actual tuning process.

remote tunes are usually between $100 (inexperienced hobby dude), and $500 for someone who can talk the talk and help people through the inevitable hiccups throughout the process.

it’s also helpful to be working with a tuner who has seen all of the MANY software glitches and idiosyncrasies that helix dsps have, JL, zapco, audiocontrol, mosconi, etc etc none of them are exempt.

for example, helix dsp’s have an issue where applying an allpass filter to a channel, and then removing it may SOMETIMES cause the APF to stay active on the channel and not show as active. Good luck tuning that side of the car if that happens lol.

I highly recommend getting a tune done locally, unless you’re willing to accept that the remote tune just might fall a bit short/be more of a chore than you’d hope for.


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

x550ciLX said:


> yeah, but it’s hard to get a measurement worth acting upon when the guy on the other side of the computer summed the wideband and midbass outputs in their Silverado with Bose with a fix82 or LC7i, and you have a huge dip in the response from the APF and the tuner is unaware, so they try to fix it with EQ.
> 
> that’s one example, but 80% of remote tuning is usually just a process of fixing problems and ensuring measurement integrity, then 20% is the actual tuning process.
> 
> ...


I’m not saying that remote tuning is the best way to go but everything you mention is predicated on how good the tuner is. A good tuner can recognize an issue and pin point it fairly quickly. It’s certainly more efficient when done in person if issues arise but there is a place in the market for remote tuning. You just have to have realistic expectations. A remote tune can be really really good but an in person tune can be next level great.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DaveG said:


> What do you charge for a remote tune Nick?


depends. Hardest part usually isn't the price. Its catching me with free time lol


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> depends. Hardest part usually isn't the price. Its catching me with free time lol


I understand that completely, how about a loose price range? $300-?? With rear fill and multi seat and without rear and single seat.


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

clange2485 said:


> I understand that completely, how about a loose price range? $300-?? With rear fill and multi seat and without rear and single seat.


What do you mean by multi seat? The drivers seat and then the passengers seat or all seats? If all seats then that should be pretty easy since no time delay can be used. Your results won’t be as good. If you look at people that have excellent sounding systems for all seats you are talking a huge system. I think Andy has like 24 speakers in his ride. Not sure how many Scott Buwalda has but it’s probably quite a few


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

if anyone says they will do 2 seat remote tuning, run lol


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## RyuTsuiSen (Jan 26, 2018)

I was gonna say, from the vague descriptions I've gotten about 2 seat tunes.... Doesn't remotely seem like something that could/should be tuned "remote"

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


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## JessSpec (Aug 17, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> That said, i picked up a VXI the other day. Will be putting it on the bench with a helix and see whats up for myself, apples to apples.


Hi SkizeR, could you do your tests? do you have a verdict?
VXi is a very acceptable proposal?

I would appreciate your answer


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

JessSpec said:


> Hi SkizeR, could you do your tests? do you have a verdict?
> VXi is a very acceptable proposal?
> 
> I would appreciate your answer


You should know he has a direct interest in saying that the helix is better. 
Helix is his bread and butter. He has dropped selling everyone else because they were not good enough.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Thomasluke7899 said:


> You should know he has a direct interest in saying that the helix is better.
> Helix is his bread and butter. He has dropped selling everyone else because they were not good enough.


Yes. exactly this. BUY HELIX 



On a serious note, there was a difference. We tested with 3 different people, on two different sets of speakers. The difference wasn't much, but we all know what we heard (btw, it was done blind, no one knew what was playing) and it fell in place with what I heard when installing them in vehicles.


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## GrM (Feb 11, 2021)

…and the verdict? Or, since anyone who read the last couple posts knows what it is, please elaborate. Test conditions, everything you feel like spending time on. Forgive me if I should know this but, which Helix was tested? As a reluctant VXi owner due to the fact that the closest Helix dealer (you) is a mere 7hr one way trip away I am quite interested to know how they compare (apart from the DSP, we all know there’s no comparing that).


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## Thomasluke7899 (Jan 4, 2020)

GrM said:


> …and the verdict? Or, since anyone who read the last couple posts knows what it is, please elaborate. Test conditions, everything you feel like spending time on. Forgive me if I should know this but, which Helix was tested? As a reluctant VXi owner due to the fact that the closest Helix dealer (you) is a mere 7hr one way trip away I am quite interested to know how they compare (apart from the DSP, we all know there’s no comparing that).


The Helix won dude. 3/0


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

good Lord, anyone that thinks the vxi is better than helix is not very bright, you want to say its equal or better simply because its less money, at the end of the day it comes down to how friendly it is to install, calibrate and IMO customer/tech support, etc and lets not forget its more exclusive and you make more money on it which is what our great country is all about, capitalism


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Porsche said:


> good Lord, anyone that thinks the vxi is better than helix is not very bright, you want to say its equal or better simply because its less money, at the end of the day it comes down to how friendly it is to install, calibrate and IMO customer/tech support, etc and lets not forget its more exclusive and you make more money on it which is what our great country is all about, capitalism


actually, you make less money on a V8 mk2 vs a VXI 800/8...


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## GrM (Feb 11, 2021)

Porsche said:


> good Lord, anyone that thinks the vxi is better than helix is not very bright, you want to say its equal or better simply because its less money, at the end of the day it comes down to how friendly it is to install, calibrate and IMO customer/tech support, etc and lets not forget its more exclusive and you make more money on it which is what our great country is all about, capitalism


You’re saying an amp designed and made in Germany is better than an amp designed in America and made wherever they could get the cheapest labor?

On a serious note, I’m satisfied with my VXi but I never would have got it if I wouldn’t have had to spend 14+ hrs driving to the nearest helix dealer. I’m still trying to figure out how much I regret not doing so and whether or not it’s worth selling it for a helix any time soon, hence my interest in how they compare. I know the helix is better, especially the DSP, just interested to know how much better it is and how (apart from the DSP).


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

GrM said:


> You’re saying an amp designed and made in Germany is better than an amp designed in America and made wherever they could get the cheapest labor?


i didn't say that, i said the helix is a better amp/dsp than the vxi


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## GrM (Feb 11, 2021)

Porsche said:


> i didn't say that, i said the helix is a better amp/dsp than the vxi


Sorry I wasn’t more clear about it but what I said was meant as a joke. Sometimes I forget it doesn’t always come across on mediums like this


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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

I have both and tested them recently against each other in my own blind test and found the JL Vxi to sound better than the Helix P-six. The Helix software is more capable but the TuN software is also very good. If I had one or the other then I wouldn't go out of my way to sell one for the other. 

I’m actually thinking about keepjng the Vxi800/8i I have and selling the P-six (both are NIB) but I dont need the money and I still want to do more testing so I’m in no rush. I could change my mind but my initial testing has me convinced for now. I’m actually hoping I can do a local meet near me and have a bunch of members experience this test for themselves. I think the Vxi will come out on top as the better sounding amp (as of now anyway).


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## Eatmore Bacon (Dec 17, 2020)

GrM said:


> You’re saying an amp designed and made in Germany is better than an amp designed in America and made wherever they could get the cheapest labor?
> 
> On a serious note, I’m satisfied with my VXi but I never would have got it if I wouldn’t have had to spend 14+ hrs driving to the nearest helix dealer. I’m still trying to figure out how much I regret not doing so and whether or not it’s worth selling it for a helix any time soon, hence my interest in how they compare. I know the helix is better, especially the DSP, just interested to know how much better it is and how (apart from the DSP).


I have had both and both are good. Anyone speaking about exceptional German engineering has never owned an Audi. Oh yeah, I have one of those too.


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