# An exercise in frog...err...space utilization :) 15 Genesis Sedan Build - AF, Mosconi



## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

We have been fortunate enough over the years to work with some great clients...people that seek us out from near and far...this particular client is definitely on the "far" end of the spectrum: He shipped us three cars from Georgia, all for SQ projects.  This is the first build log out of the three.

The car is a 2015 Hyundai Genesis sedan, as some of you may remember, i did a rather extensive build in a 2012 model a few years back: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...cal-illusion-2012-genesis-sedan-600-pics.html

The knowledge i gained from that build really helped me on this one. though the exterior and interior changed drastically, audio wise it remained very similar, though there were some key differences. In addition, the availability of the mosconi AMAS streaming system allowed us to not solely rely on the factory signal source, something i compensated with an external changer on the last build, but the AMAS is a far easier and modern approach.

lets first take a look at the car, a loaded 5.0liter model. IMO the new design works really well, it totally changes the look of the car and is neither better nor worse than the previous model, its just different, perhaps more focused on luxury than sportiness? 




























now lets review the goals:

1. to achieve a nice level of sound quality and integrate the mosconi AMAS streaming device into the mix

2. maintain a classy and low key appearance on the interior

3. have a bit of show factor in the trunk but still keep things clean, classy

4. this last bit i added myself: to keep a 100 percent oem floor height and appearance

on point 4, allow me to expand briefly. the genesis sedan has a very wide, long but not very tall trunk. the last big install i did in one, due to the gigantic amps used, featured a floor that was raised by about 4 to 5", resulting in an even shorter trunk. This time around, though we are still using a ton of gear, i was determined to somehow fit everything within the confines of the spare tire well.

this posed a challenge in that the oem full size battery also resides in the spare tire well, just like the 2012 model...working around it and still figuring out a classy way to display everything was quite a challenge. I have seemingly crammed a lot of gear into a tight space before, but this one, imo was perhaps the most difficult, if not because the build needed some show factor to it as well, rather than just a clean finish.

lets get started...Joey built the A pillars and the mosconi controller mounting, while i did everything else.

Using the AMAS streaming device means that once you are streaming, the factor volume controls no longer worked as you are bypassing the stock signal source completely. To that end, you have to use a mosconi dsp controller and locate it upfront somewhere. 

Joey chose the factory tray in the center console that housed the oem 12v outlets and the usb/aux input panel.

here is the view with the door closed:











and this is what it used to look like. we made the decision with the customer to sacrifice one of the 12v outlets:










and here is what joey came up with:










as you can see, its pretty much an OEM finish, but the simplicity belies the complexity of the work as everything had to be relocated and refinished.

first, hey made a quick jig, one for the mosconi RC-Mini controller, and one for the oem usb/aux plate:










he then transffer those two shapes, along with a round hole for the remaining 12v plug, onto a piece of clear acrylic that has been cut to shape to match the stock plate:










then using filler, he built up a transition to the two oem pieces and then painted everything with sem black:










here you see the mounting system for the mosconi controller:










and here it is, secured back into the factory tray, before going back into the vehicle:










for the speakers on this car, we went full frog...as in audio frog.  a GB three way system was picked for the front stage.

first, i ran new speaker wires into the doors, lined the outter metal door with blackhole tiles, and due to the shapes of the interior door panel, i chose to put pieces of CLD on the outside surfaces of the interior door panel, so you cant see them but they serve their purpose:










i then fabricated two adapter baffles that matches the oem speaker mounting basket, and coated them with several layers of truck bedliner to protect them against the lements:



















this was then bolted to the door using stock hardware and mounting points:










the audiofrog GB60 midbass driver was then wired up and secured in place:



















the outer door card had a nice pillowy barrier that covered the entire door, thus negating the need for a foam barreir, i applied as much cld as i could around the speaker, but there is no real way to show that its literally a squeeze job by lifting the stock barrier one section at a time 











the same process was then repeated on the passenger side door:























































moving onto the midrange and tweeter...these are located in the a pillars, molded by Joey. he wanted to do something slight different than the normal bafle, and came up with a pretty cool shape that featured a sharp crease down the front side of the pillar. its hard to describe in words, so here are the pics, but it matched the interior very well. the pillars, along with the rest of the interior above the doors, were finished in alcantara by Finishline Customs in Santa Clara, CA 

note that the grilles for the audiofrogs have been painted to match the alcantara, with the logo stickers still on them 


















































































So joey forgot to take the build pics of the pillars, but basically, the AF supplied rings were aimed, attached, and then after everything dried, Joey applied a lot of filler and carefully sanded them into the desired shape...

i finished them with some final fine sanding, and here is what they looked like right before the car went off to the upholstey shop for the alcantara job:




























a week later, they came back looking like this, ready for speaker installation:




















one really cool thing about the audiofrog speakers is that their grilles are specifically designed to be painted....infact, they supply two sets of extra logo decals just for this purpose. 

so after some light scuffing and priming, i painted the grilles, and then re applied the logo stickers to them:


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

so thats it for the front stage work, next comes the wiring pics that show the bundle traveling from the front of the car to the back, ziptied to the stock looms every few inches. along the B pillar, i routed them through the factory plastic channels as well. as is common practice for us with any rear battery car, we tried to run ALL signal wires down the opposite side of the car from the main oem cable connecting the battery and the alternator.
thus, all wires are run down the driver side of the car:


















































































and here you see the bundle meets up with the signal cables i soldered onto the OEM lexicon amp's output plugs:










the only other thing on the interior was to remove all the oem speakers from the rear deck, and sound proof it fully with CLD, once again, a nice factory barrer provided decoupling to the stock rear deck cover:


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

so, moving onto the main attraction, the trunk. due to the rather small opening of the trunk and the color/texture of the materials involved, it was kind hard to get good pics of the final product. but here it is in normal covered up mode:

as you can see, the stock floor height has been completely retained, a new center floor section, trimmed in black alcantara, replaced the factory floor cover. there is a big cutout int he middle that has a press fit breathable cover wrapped in black carpet. because the light bounces off the different materials quite differently, the different in shade is more dramatic in these pics than in real life  but either way, hes left with a fully usable trunk and very little hint of a system, esepecially after a cargo mat goes in in the future:





























lift off the grille, and you are greeted with...well pardon my french, a **** ton of gear  three mosconi zero amps are in a stacked amp rack to the driver side, a zero3 powering the subs bridged, a zero3 sending 250 watts to the midbass, and a zero4 sending 100 and 200 watts to the tweeter and midranges, respecrively. a mosconi 6to8v8 dsp is infront of them in its own rack, with all the mosconi AMAS gear installed. Two audiofrog GB12 12" subwoofers at towards the middle of the well, while the power and ground distribution blocks are on the right with a blanking panel that features a raised texture surface is infront of it.

if you take into consideration that a full size (eurosize) battery is also down in the well, it sorta puts things into perspective. after nearly two days of mocking up, this configuration was literally the only one that i came up with that allowed fitment of everyhting within the confines of the spare tire well, and if any gear was just another half an inch bigger, even this configuration would not have worked...talk about a tight squeeze 

there are several layers that make up the top floor trim around all the gear. at the very top, is the main floor covered in alcantara, then right below it, is a very thin layer in black vinyl, which is then followed by another layer of black alcantara, and a layer of acrylic painted chrome silver to accent the openings.























































the customer also wanted some blue lighting effects, and i came up with a slight variation of my usual edge lit plexi theme and did an indirect lighting effect. basically, there is yet another layer under the silver painted acrylic layer, recessed back from that layer, that is edge lit with blue LED strips. so you cant see that edge, but instead, all the openings are bathed in a blue light when a switch is flipped:




























of course, a better view of this lighting effect would be in the dark, so here are some shots with the car in the shop and lights turned off. with oem trunk light on, the colors look a bit sharper in contrast so i took a few pics of this as well:




























and finally, with the blue lights turned on for maximum effect in the dark:




























a prett neat perspective looking back from the folded down armrest opening:


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

so thats it for the finished pics, now lets see how all this stuff found their way into the trunk.

so here is the stock spare tire well, it is quite big, but the battery on the passenger side is definitely a problem. not only do i have to work around it, i wanted to make sure that it is not a herculean task to change a battery should there be a need to do so...you will read more about this later.










the first thing i did was to apply a layer of STP cld damper to the area that will have the sub enclosure and racks:










then, laid down 6 layers of glass to the area, forming the very bottom of the sub enclosure.










when that cured, i pulled it out, and trimmed it to the desired shape:



















then i created the top baffle for this mold with a big cutout for toe top portion of the subbox to mate to, and a smaller opening for a bolt to secure the entire structure using the oem spare tire retaining hole. in other words, not a single other hole was drilled into the car










i then maded the two pieces together, filled in the seams, and attached a spacer for the DSP rack tot he front corner of the box. with how tight everything is in there, almost every surface and piece has to have a dual purpose. and the spacer not only spaces up the dsp rack, it also is a mounting space for barrier strips, as you will see layer.

the very but wide bottom subbox serves two purposes as well, one is to give the subs a little extra room (estimated about .25 cubic foot), and also provide a sturdy, flat mounting surface for everyhting else. if you look closely, you can see a bunch of threaded inserts embedded into the wood for that second purpose:




























this structure was then bolted to the floor of the well, and some prewiring done to barrier strips:




























i then built the top portion of the subbox, which is about 1.8 cubic foot in air note the slot cutout in the bottom to match the cutout int eh bottom portion. and the little indentation portion on the left side, that will give me room to wire the bottom zero 3 subamp into the box via two bolts and threaded inserts. there is also a top trim panel that flushes the two subs, a small strip towards the front left side of the box gives the dsp rack some additional support:














































select surfaces were then coverd in black vinyl, the sides that were vinyl will be the right hand side wall to the amp rack, while the main fuse block for the system is located on the right front corner again, multipurpose everything 





































then i turned my attention to the amp rack, which consists of these pieces. the two support platforms for the middle and upper amps will be secured via rivet nuts installed onto the two edges, also note the slots cutout on the sides of the main walls that will allow venting of the amps via their outlets, while a bigger cutout on the back wall is for a low profile fan that will help to circulate air throughout the rack










these pieces were then wrapped in vinyl:










and then the floor and the main side walls were secured together, and the first amp, the zero3 sub amp, was wired up and bolted in place:










then the 2nd tier platform was bolted in place, and the middle zero3 for the midbasses wired up and secured:



















next, the top platform was bolted in, and the zero4 installed. the fan was also wired up and installed on the back wall, thus finishing the amp rack:
































































note the holes in the edges of the amp rack floor, those will have bolts that go into threaded inserts on the bottom portion of the subbox to secure the entire structure:

this module and the subbox top portion was then bolted to the bottom portion of the subbox and wired up, here you can see just how tight things are:










then i fabricated the racks for the power/ground distribution blocks and the dsp.










first hte dsp holder was also covered in vinyl, note the surface the dsp sits on is actually lower than the rest of the rack...i actually needed this 1/4" of clearance to make sure the dsp fits at the same level as the rest of the gear.










here you can see the two threaded inserts on the top of the support platform that allows me to bolt the dsp rack in place:










and finally, the dsp rack and dsp is installed and wired up:










moving onto the distribution block rack. as mentioned, i wanted the ability to remove and reinstall the battery without tearing out a bunch of things...so here is the view of the wiring etc going to the battery area...i upgraded the stock ground as well. note also a thin ledge attached to the side of the subbox that will support the dblock rack:










so the unique thing about this dblock rack, as it is the only structure that sits ontop of the stock battery, ist hat it is not bolted in at all, instead, the left side of the rack slides into a slot on the right side of the subbox, while three strong neodymium magnets firmly secure it to the metal wall of the spare tire well on the other side. this, coupled with a tight press fit tolerance, means the rack is firmly in place, but can easily be removed by hand. all you would need to do is disconnect the main ground cable going into the dblock and flip it out of the way to access the battery:



















here is the rack secured and wired up:










so at this point, all the main audio wiring is done, and since there wll be additional layers secured to the cutouts, i took some pics at this stage to showcase the wiring organization:


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

next comes the two plexi layers...here it is hard to see, but there is one layer that is bigger than the other. the bigger one will be painted silver, the smaller layer clouded to be used for edge lighting:



















so here are the bigger pieces after sanding, priming, and painting:










and here are the smaller pieces after being clouded:










these two pieces are then bonded together with acrylic epoxy, again, hard to see in this picture:










this is a better view that shows the two layers together:










then clouded layer then got a blue led strip all around the outter edge, and black duct tape was used to prevent any light leaking out from unwanted surfaces:



















the same was done for all the other cutouts over equipment:























































at this point, these were installed ontop the top of the various racks, the wires combined, and secured, again you can see just how tight thing are, to give room for the led strips:




























the top floor consists of three main layers of mdf. this is a piece of 1/2:, with the edge rounded over. i intentionally raised the bit higher to form a small recessed edge along the openings. this is so i can then wrap the inner surface only with black alcantara, leaving the bare wood to bond with the layer above it with wood glue:



















this is a very thin 1/8" layer of mdf that was covered in black vinyl:



















and then two layers bonded together using wood glue to form a single layer:










this is the balck portion of the top floor before and after alcantara:



















and since i had no gear below the front right hand corner of the well, i built a quick wooden board with a kefed piece of 1/4" mdf, wrapped it in vinyl, to provide some visual balance to that corner of the top board. 



















then this was secured to the cutout, and the layers secured together to form a single top panel:



















the main led lighting stack, and silver painted acrylic, is featured on the front right and cutout:










this is the front portion of the floor, before and after alcantara:



















and finally, here is the main breathable grill, before and after carpeting:




















so thats it! 

how does it sound? well, lets first look at the stock signal coming out of the lexicon amp.

i was expecting virtually the same signal as before, but oddly, its slightly different, the new signal seems to have a lot more dips and peaks built into it...this, coupled with what looks to be cheaper oem speakers i removed, seems to suggest that like many car manufacturers these days, hyundai has gone downmarket on audio from the last generation 

but here is the stock sub signal at various volume levels, pretty good to use:










here is the stock door woofer signal, which is a lot more peaky than before:










and here is the stock tweeter/mid signal at various volumes, again, not as good as before imo:










and here is the unmodified summed front woofer and front mid/high signal, as you can see, looks a bit like the sierra nevadas 










after some work with the mosconi's input EQ, i was able to flatten it down to this...the sub signal i basically didnt change as it was adequate to use for the sub:










by stark comparison, here is the mosconi AMAS signal playing pink noise: 










Overall, on AMAS, the car sounds really good. the audiofrogs again, have their natural tendencies shine through...very smooth and natural but with very good detail as well. the GB60 provides a lot of punch cleanly, even at high volumes, and the two AF12s does a very good job at providing ample bottom end, and everything blends well.

imaging wise, the center is pretty good, hovering a a about 8 inches above the dash ove the center channel speak grille, width is pillar to pillar, and deptih is to the windshield. just pleasant to listen to with a wide variety of music at all volume levels.

the stock signal source basically sounds like the amas but at about 80 percent performance level. probabably the weakest part is the stock sub signal. the subs sounds a bit more boomy with more overhang, and less blending than the amas, while providing less impact as well, center imagine is also less steady and focused than amas. i would be willing to bet the stock surround and processing cannot be turned off completely. it isnt bad, and isnt too far off the other genesis sedan i did, which IMO had a much better stock signal, but when you compare the same songs back to back with amas, it pales in comparison for sure.

this suits the customer well as 99 percent of his musical listening will be from a dedicated ipod via BT, with the stock headunit mostly for talk radio. 

in summary, while the install and my own desire to keep things stealthy definitely presented their challenges, i am pretty happy with how it came out 

hope you enjoyed this one, i will have the two remaining build logs from this client up soon!

Cheers!

Bing


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

great install as usual. but how did you manage to paint the grills, but keep the audiofrog logo?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

^^The speakers come with new logo stickers.

Visually I can't see the 1.8ft^3 or .25ft^3 out of the bottom for the subs. Seems like the box is too small. I modeled them needing a little larger box, but as long as they sound good.


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## funkalicious (Oct 8, 2007)

The skills you guys consistently exhibit is amazing. Just trying to conceptualize that trunk would have melted my brain. That is a truly outstanding piece of work!


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## mark620 (Dec 8, 2010)

Nice nice nice...I am blown away with how much better the AMAS signal is. I must say I have to go with the AMAs on my 6-8 

I wait for your logs they are like candy to a audio addict..


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## gckless (Oct 11, 2012)

My god. Dat trunk install. 

Amazing work.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Niebur3 said:


> ^^The speakers come with new logo stickers.
> 
> Visually I can't see the 1.8ft^3 or .25ft^3 out of the bottom for the subs. Seems like the box is too small. I modeled them needing a little larger box, but as long as they sound good.


Maybe a hair under...i tend to count the effect of the blackhile stuff too haha verified by the smd meters. But the main box is roughly 14 x 28 x8.25, and the lower part is 28x22ish x maybe an average of 3/4inch tall of space

Close enough no? Maybe 1.6 to 1.7 and .25 but we've seen up to a 20 percent increase in measured volume with black hole stuff. 

What did u model them to work best in? On the rta afterwards it was pretty flat down to 30hz, 20hz or lower when u open a window  how did the ones you did do in the bigger enclosure?


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> great install as usual. but how did you manage to paint the grills, but keep the audiofrog logo?


Ancient chinese dark magic trick!

Oh damn jerry already let the cat out of the bag. Haha


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## moparman79 (Jan 31, 2008)

Great build as usual guys. I would think since it a newer model genesis, that they would have a better setup then previous model from the factory.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

customaudioman said:


> Great build as usual guys. I would think since it a newer model genesis, that they would have a better setup then previous model from the factory.


As far as audio goes, thats very rarely the case these days...imo bmw 3 series also went down market from e90 to f30


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## aholland1198 (Oct 7, 2009)

Wow, that trunk is amazing. Stellar craftsmanship and attention to detail. 

I do have to ask, it seems that most of your pillar installs are normally pretty far off axis. Now, I do feel that looks much better, but is it really an aesthetics decision or do you just favor the sound of off axis setups. Yes, I know cars vary drastically in how they react to installs but I'm just curious. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## optimaprime (Aug 16, 2007)

Moreeeeeeeeeeee please!!!!!!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Which speakers are in the pillars?


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## req (Aug 4, 2007)

as always bing and joey, my goodness. you fellas never cease to impress.


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

Another amazing job......


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## Inferno333 (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm always amazed at how much gear you can get under a false floor.

Great job Bing and Joey!


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## jb4674 (Jan 29, 2015)

Looks great! 

Just a positive observation (and this is just the neat freak in me)... I would've added black techflex to all the exposed wires, to keep the aesthetics of the color motif....










Really nice build though!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

jb4674 said:


> Looks great!
> 
> Just a positive observation (and this is just the neat freak in me)... I would've added black techflex to all the exposed wires, to keep the aesthetics of the color motif....
> 
> ...


for sure, the only thing is, i am against doing techflex only for show, if i am doing it, i would do the entire thing...but gosh darnit does it take more time and thus labor budget...usually i do it for cars with specific requests and/or competition builds. 

the last genesis build had a LOT of techflex


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

This belongs to car audio museum! Well maybe with the exception of almost hanging woofer on the edge there, but DAMN this is a neat looking install !



simplicityinsound said:


>


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## tjswarbrick (Nov 27, 2013)

Another great looking Genesis.
As others here are, I'm very, very impressed with your solution in the trunk. Very clean, tight, practical, and attractive.


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## eric3514 (Nov 5, 2013)

Awesome install simplicityinsound! Keep it up man!!


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Those pillars are so sweet, first time I see some gb painted.
I really like the S edge line around going in between.
Why this sharp angle below the mids, to match some lines in the interior?

Edit: Ho I see, the "S" was just a shadow effect:









Thanks for the inspiration!


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

Elgrosso said:


> Those pillars are so sweet, first time I see some gb painted.
> I really like the S edge line around going in between.
> Why this sharp angle below the mids, to match some lines in the interior?
> 
> ...


you callin me a "ho"!? hahaha

yeah JOey took inspiration from the interior lines in creating that set


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

simplicityinsound said:


> you callin me a "ho"!? hahaha
> 
> yeah JOey took inspiration from the interior lines in creating that set


I meant Oh maybe, well my english is too bad to get this one


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Someday, I'll actually get to hear some of the froggy drivers.


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

rton20s said:


> Someday, I'll actually get to hear some of the froggy drivers.



if you are ever up here, the two way wrx build we did, the owner is on standby for us to demo it to anyone who wants to hear it 

b


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## WhiteL02 (Jul 25, 2014)

simplicityinsound said:


> if you are ever up here, the two way wrx build we did, the owner is on standby for us to demo it to anyone who wants to hear it
> 
> b


How do those compare to the Gladen aerospace components?


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## simplicityinsound (Feb 2, 2007)

WhiteL02 said:


> How do those compare to the Gladen aerospace components?


i would honestly say they are very comparable speakers based on my limited experience. the gladen is quite a bit more expensive, and i am sure if someone took it down to do measurements, there may be difference in them.

i think also if you ask 10 different people who have heard both, you may get 10 different opinions 

to me, they are both very natural, easy to tune, and if installed and tuned well, can sound great 

the AF offers a lot more in terms of installation variety and adapters though. 

imo if you can get either one of these sets, you are doing well.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Would you mind sharing why you didn't pick the stock door location?
The 2.5" might have fit, even partially masked maybe.
Just wondering since I kind of like this car...
Thx!


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Just reviewing both of these Sonata builds.
Especially the intricacy of the trunk work.
Bing you're on a completely different level.


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## beatswork (Oct 3, 2015)

Simply amazing! Were adapter plates on front door to accommodate 6 3/4 or depth?


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Babs said:


> Just reviewing both of these Sonata builds.
> Especially the intricacy of the trunk work.
> Bing you're on a completely different level.


Sonata builds. Lol...Don't let the Genesis Sedan owners hear you say that.
The Genesis is 2 levels above the Sonata, and about twice the price. lol

Jay


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## Victor_inox (Apr 27, 2012)

Once again a reminder why some of us should just drop the hobby and pay you guys to do install.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

JayinMI said:


> Sonata builds. Lol...Don't let the Genesis Sedan owners hear you say that.
> 
> The Genesis is 2 levels above the Sonata, and about twice the price. lol
> 
> ...



Ah. Oops. One o them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## sq2k1 (Oct 31, 2015)

Very nice install to say the least.... wish I had the abilities you guys have for this type of work... always nice work. Thanks for sharing.


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## Nineteen69Mach1 (May 30, 2017)

Great post!


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## 1FinalInstall (Oct 13, 2013)

What an awesome install!


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## mikebrooks (Feb 12, 2012)

That's a beautiful install. I recently purchased a 2015 Genesis 5.0 sedan & I'm gathering ideas to upgrade the sound system in it. So far, without getting into details, I'm not finding a whole lot of installs with this particular make/model. Would love to know if any more installations have been performed with model since this article was originally posted.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

mikebrooks said:


> That's a beautiful install. I recently purchased a 2015 Genesis 5.0 sedan & I'm gathering ideas to upgrade the sound system in it. So far, without getting into details, I'm not finding a whole lot of installs with this particular make/model. Would love to know if any more installations have been performed with model since this article was originally posted.


The guys at IIAF have a Genesis that they fully outfitted with PHD amps and IIAF drivers done by MTI in College Station
The Mercury Audio demo car is also a Genesis done by Steve Head in Ocala Fl.


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## mfenske (Feb 7, 2006)

mikebrooks said:


> That's a beautiful install. I recently purchased a 2015 Genesis 5.0 sedan & I'm gathering ideas to upgrade the sound system in it. So far, without getting into details, I'm not finding a whole lot of installs with this particular make/model. Would love to know if any more installations have been performed with model since this article was originally posted.


That's probably my biggest gripe about the Genesis and Stinger platform in that there's not a huge community to gain information from.


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