# 2014 Chevrolet Silverado Z71 LT (Non-Bose, No Center Console)



## sirbOOm

Okay folks, here comes yet another 2014 Silverado build (only this time FAR slower, without an OEM center console available, and mine is silver ).

I've begun my usual and painful process of deciding what I want to do with my new truck's audio system. The stock, non-Bose system sacrifices vocal clarity and low-end definition for boomy bass with its 6x9's in the doors that receive a full-range signal. Then, in the dash, there are 2.5" mid/tweeters that are crossed over with a capacitor, filtering out the low-end. These little speakers actually don't sound half bad - a bit on the "PA speaker" side of the spectrum, but not too bad. To be honest, the stock system is actually tolerable; a nice enhancement from my old 2011 Silverado's horse dung for OEM speakers. 

Today I figured out how to take off the dash piece that covers the dash speakers. This required removing the a-pillars first, then, carefully, popping up the dash piece along the bottom of the windshield. The clips to pop are on the seam facing inside of the car and there are about a zillion of them.

Once you open it up, you see this (screws already taken out in photo):









Take the little speaker out and you see this:









One could easily cut that speaker mount out of there and make a sealed enclosure still under the factory grill.

Depth is pretty deep and what's behind this speaker hole is MLV-ish material that I can push downward pretty far, so I can increase depth if needed.

The problem is, this hole is not big enough for a 3" midrange. You're about to see that I had to sort of deal with this while I sound tested the following three speakers. I tested using the OEM high-pass capacitor in-line with the + wire, no tweeter, placing each speaker within a towel and not within a towel, and always as best as I could in the stock location facing the stock direction. I simply shoved some speaker wire into the stock plug maintaining + to + and - and -. Simple... got the job done... and it was humid in my damn garage!

*The Speakers*









Audison Voce 3" (does not fit without modification)
H-Audio Trinity 3" (does not fit without modification; larger than Audison)
Pioneer Stage 4 2.5" (fits perfectly)

Now I'll tell you about my impressions of each speaker. I'm no professional speaker reviewer but I need to pick one of these and go with it. I'm trying not to go buy MORE friggin' audio gear. All of what I have is great stuff, but because I'm ridiculous, I may try the Dayton RS75 3" and its 2.5" baby brother if I just need something to break a tie. I'll make some iPod speakers out of them if I don't use them in the car (same probably goes for the Trinities).

All of this is by ear listening to the same 5 songs or so, none of which I can really remember the name of except Mannheim Steamroller's Carol of the Bells and F*uck You by Lilly Allen. No analysis equipment. All speakers were never used before and thus not "broken in". This was a *******-style A-B comparo.

*Listening to the Audison Voce 3"*









This was notably the most present (not bright, but just felt "closer to me") of the three on the same power. Whenever I fired this one up, I always thought to myself at first, yes - it's this one I want! But then listened more and began to lose that lust and starting thinking... well, maybe not. The issue for me is hard to describe - it's natural sounding, yes, but has apparent limitations. I liked it, but in many songs with higher vocals, said vocals sounded sometimes, while really, really detailed, like they were coming from a metal dome tweeter (smaller speaker). I usually hate metal tweeters so this sprung out at me. This was less the case when it was in a towel, but it was still there. Will this be an issue in an active 3-way configuration? Well, clearly this isn't rightly suited for full-range speaker duty and I'm sure it not being in any sort of enclosure didn't help either. But, this one, where it shined, sounded the clearest - it had a nice airy yet clinical level of detail and, when it was doing what it was designed to do, sounded the most natural. It also was best at producing snappy sounds like the snare drum or the wack of a slapped bass guitar string or the wack of a drum stick on the rail of a drum (and so forth). It's also, IMO, the best looking speaker - but it won't be seen where it'd be going so that doesn't matter. The speaker terminals are in the dumbest m'fing location, though. What a completely stupid design for those... IMO. Oh, and for some goofy reason this blended REALLY well with the stock 6x9.

*Listening to the H-Audio Trinity 3"*









This is clearly the full-range driver it claims to be. It handled life without the crossover I mentioned above (so 100% full range) better than its competition here. But my test was mostly with the cap in-line. It seemed to do every note the same way - nothing harsh, no note "missing" per say, all at the same volume. I didn't need the towel behind it to calm down, either. It did highs the best out of this group - there was, despite its size, some sparkle in the highs that neither of its competition could match. I did feel there was a good tweeter in the mix as well. But, then I found the fault that might break this one for me. It sounds sometimes "plastic-ey", especially with male vocals. What does this mean? Well... sometimes what I'm hearing sounds fake, manufactured. I would not have noticed this if I didn't have the Audison to compare it to, though, and I wonder if this will go away once properly installed with some batting behind it and more watts to eat up... probably. On the other hand, I have a distinct preference for (usually) silk/fabric tweeters and (almost always) paper/natural material speakers. I have a good batting average for picking out speakers that are metal or plastic based in even good installs... so this speaker might bother me. Not to mention, this is the biggest (cutout and depth) of the three so it'd be the hardest to place where I want it. I feel this one is the safest bet and I could get away with no tweeter, allowing me to just do 2-way active. Maybe. We'll see...

*Pioneer Stage 4 TS-S062PRS 2 5/8"*









This is actually the same midrange in my shops primary demo car. Do I like my shop's all Pioneer Stage 4 demo car's sound? It's good but not as good as I've heard. I've never heard JUST the midrange in that demo car but here's what I concluded. This midrange is good stuff, but it needs a tweeter (at least in my application, probably from 6/7,000+. It's warm - perhaps too warm... I kept thinking I'd like to mix in a little of the Audison Voce's detail. This one might be the least efficient, as well... it was the quietest by a little bit, especially noticeable if I went to the Audison right after it. That's not really an issue - I have enough watts to give it. It was equally as capable as the Audison and H-Audio at delving out the sound right before a guitar string is plucked with a pick... that plastic rubbing on metal "zztick zting zting" strum sound. Female vocals sounded very much like I was in an jazz club (or at least that's what I kept being reminded of) - there was a sort of melt in your ears reproduction that reminded me of Morel. This was great but also its weaknesses, as the Audison was capable of being more detailed albeit clearly less warm. The H-Audio's detail was about the same and it did have a warmth to it. It's a smaller speaker - it didn't make that obvious, no, but against the H-Audio... well the H-Audio kills it in Xmax so that'll handle bass that this Pioneer just cannot... but the Pioneer stood tall and was able to get loud. I still almost want to put two on each side for some reason... maybe something I want was missing that I cannot place. But hey, the plus side of this one is that it fits in the hole like it's supposed to be there and it didn't really sound like a smaller speaker against the Audison. No modification needed! Hmmm... and a tweeter fits next to it easily (though I'd probably cut one into the A-pillar).

*Conclusion?*
I have no flippin' idea which one I want to do. I kind of want to hook up the Audison Voce 3-way to see how that sounds altogether in the car. I've heard it on a demo board and liked it, hence my buying them, but the 3" was the biggest turn on then turn off roller coaster for me in my truck. I liked the H-Audio but am nervous about its sometimes fake sound in that test situation. I'll probably build around the Pioneer for now cuz it fits and, overall, I liked it. It didn't give me a hard on, per say, but I liked it. I really wish there were more 2.5" midranges out there. I'll probably order the Daytons to help me figure this out. I can aways change the speakers later, if I decide.

Now I need to decide if I want to use my Audison Voce tweeter, Alpine SPX-17PRO Tweeter, or the massive Infinity EMIT-R tweeters I have (which are my absolute fav tweeter of all time but likely not going to fit). And then which midbass, I have Audison Voce, Hertz Mille, and the Alpine SPX midbass from the 17PRO set. And I have Peerless SLS 8"s... hmmm.

Amplifiers will likely be ZED Leviathan III and Minotaur II... if I can find a place for them. Subwoofer... oh I think a Stereo Integrity mkIV might be finding its way in there. Although that sub amp is WAY to powerful for it... I do wish I could have gotten a dual 2-ohm VC so I can get a 4-ohm final resistance. Ohwell. May go JL HD amps, too... little easier to manage.


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## mires

So does that area open up into the dash? For the sake of not having to modify, it would be nice if you could find a way to like the Pioneer best. Hard to say without putting more power to it and having the ability to tune.


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## sirbOOm

mires said:


> So does that area open up into the dash? For the sake of not having to modify, it would be nice if you could find a way to like the Pioneer best. Hard to say without putting more power to it and having the ability to tune.


The "MLV" is in the way, but yes it does - for the most part.

I have a deck, amp, and bench power source I can run to these speakers to give them 50 watts, which is next step.


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## mrmill

So many choices so little time. You have good problems. I'd say the pioneer just for the sake of simplicity. Then you can move to the mid bass dilemma, and so on 


Sent from under your mom's bed


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## Fast Hot Rod

Good stuff! I appreciate you posting the pictures up like that... let's me know what I'm getting myself into later down the road. 

Any pics of the A-pillar area? Backs of the A-pillar itself? I'm curious to see what's going on in there. Thanks!


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## sirbOOm

FYI: dash speaker mounting hole cutout diameter is essentially 2 9/16". I figured this out because that's the cutout diameter of the Pioneer Stage 4 midrange and it DOES NOT move AT ALL in the hole. It fits in there like it was made for that specific hole.



Fast Hot Rod said:


> Any pics of the A-pillar area? Backs of the A-pillar itself? I'm curious to see what's going on in there. Thanks!


I can take some eventually, sure. But it's literally 30 seconds to pop them off if you don't have a handle there, 1-min. if there is a handle. Pull the seal down, yank it out up top first, then lift up and backwards, boom it's out. Then you can look and see. 

Speaking of A-pillars... I do have plans to put tweeters in the a-pillar probably, for now, using just a hole saw and flush mount. It will certainly come to a point where I do a little fiberglass to aim them better, but the finishing work will probably be out of my current budget situation. Being as picky as I am about finish quality, I'd have JPM Coachworks do it because I'd want some stitching done to match the rest of the vehicle interior (black "leather", white stitching) which I will not be doing myself... guaranteed fail.

In my own vehicles, I now never, ever cut into a panel that I do not have a replacement panel in-hand for (I suppose unless it is a custom car or something that will never be sold/traded-in... none of which I have). I learned that the hardway on my 2011 Silverado, where I was half-way done making a custom amp rack in the cubby hole under the bench seat, then had an opportunity to sell the truck for just about what I paid for it 22K miles prior! I had cut up this plastic tray to fit in wires and add fans, etc. figuring I'd just order another one when I get around to it. Well... no. Apparently the only way to get one was to raid a junkyard (none of which had what I needed), buy an ENTIRE center jump seat ($600+ for a plastic tray?!), or eBay a take off jump seat. That or do some fiberglassing. Luckily I found one with a stroke of luck, saving the day, but I learned my lesson and now I always get backup panels to "go back to stock".

A-Pillar P/Ns for My Truck:
- 22817382 -- Passenger side; Gray
- 22817386 -- Driver side; Gray

I also acquired a backup dash piece that covers the dash speakers. This goes entirely across the dash and also mounts the light sensor (or whatever that is in the middle of the dash right by the base of the windshield. I randomly found one at a car audio shop that was taken off for custom work, I guess, but I paid $60. Online they're over $100 and at the dealer like $140! I decided to get one of these in case I decide to do a little custom speaker enclosure work in the dash, thus having to cut out the OEM grill and/or potentially putting in a center channel speaker (highly unlikely, but... there is some depth there to do this).

Dash Speaker Grill "Extension" Panel
- 23134416 -- Instrument panel extension; Black

Hopefully the above information is useful to folks in the future as more systems (damage) are done in these trucks.

Additionally, in other news, I have ordered a set of the PEERLESS 830984 2-1/2" FULL RANGE WOOFER from Parts-Express. Apparently a lot of folks are using these in their BMWs to replace worn midranges and liking them, so I figured - maybe use it as a tie-breaker and it should fit in the given hole in the dash. I'm not expecting them to sound better than the competition here but if they do, sweet. If not, then I'll make desk speakers with them... getting into that sort of hobby as well.


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## sirbOOm

At lunch at work and was really thinking about my amplifiers for this install. Here are my options that I have in inventory and my thoughts around each.

ZED (Bought Barely Used)
- Leviathan III
- Minotaur II

Aside from being blue-lit and beautiful, these are some very powerful, clean, efficient amplifiers. I'm not swayed by their blue lights or looks as they'll be hidden, but I am interested in their efficiency and sound quality and, while I haven't run either of them yet for more than 15 minutes since I bought them (to A-B test against a set of Kenwood Excelon XR-series amplifiers I once had), I do have complete confidence that they're good to go. They certainly spanked the Kenwoods beyond all recognition in terms of midbass response, subwoofer output, and clearer sound. Was not a fair match-up...

But I have a concern. 190 watt-rated channels going to tweeters and midranges? Hmm.. this just makes me really nervous. I know I'll have headroom galore and can keep the gains way down, but still I am nervous. These ZEDs do deliver more than their rated power according to Mr. Mantz himself (and I don't take him as a guy who would lie).

JBL (All New)
- GTO 504EZ
- GTO 804EZ
- GTO 1001EZ

I like these amplifiers. They're underrated (from a reputation standpoint) and put out their rated power or more, without question. They look good, they are robust, and the 4-channels are actually class AB which doesn't mean much against class D now, but it did. I also really appreciate the large adjustment knobs and their location, which will allow me to get to them fairly easily from under the rear seat of my truck if I put them on the back wall. The 1001EZ is way more than I need for my sub stage, but less so than the ZED Minotaur II. I wish more people would install these in their cars at my shop!

Then, today, someone posts some Rainbow iPauls - all three are perfect for my setup both for wattage, size, and it's nice that they look nice. I don't have the free cash right now to go buying MORE amplifiers, but man... if I didn't have anything, those would be what I'd install without question. Thus... I've been a bit torn as to what to do.

...bit indecisive this build thread is, huh?


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## sirbOOm

Okay, so I tested all of the speakers this time each with a tweeter and running off of a JBL 504EZ, which puts out 50 watts at 4-ohms. My source was an iPod plugged in via RCAs. Crossover was HP at 220hz, as high as that amplifier would go. Tweeter crossover point was whatever the crossover point is on the Pioneer Stage 4 passive crossover.

This time, I was not running the midbass in the door, so everything sounded a bit PA speaker-ish and thus this is not an apples to apples comparison to the original listing test. I basically had wires running from the JBL amp I have mounted on my garage wall (used to power garage speakers) into the crossovers on my work bench, then 4 sets of speaker wire running into the vehicle. I wasn't interested in wiring up the door for this test.

So onto what I noticed...

The Pioneers really opened up and were better with power. Their faults dissapated (that warm but almost lazy sound they had) - they sprung up and were quick to action like the Audisons were in my original review. On the downside, they started to show their size (weren't putting out much of anything I'd side as being from the bass spectrum) as compared to the Audison and especially H-Audio, but the vocals were so much better than before and I figure if a midbass was in the picture, their sound would round off/blend nicely enough. I then plugged in the tweeter and well, it's confirmed, the Pioneer, at that axis, is NOT a full-ranger. I put Pioneer Stage 4 tweeters in numerous locations, trying to figure out what sounded best. I think I did find the nicest sounding location (the low area of my a-pillars firing toward the front dome lights) but that will require fabrication, which I'm not going to do in the first stage here. Everything together - Pioneer mid and tweeter - was very bright and harsh. But, this was the case with all of the combinations! All of these speakers need to break in (if that exists), for one, and two there was zero tuning.

For the Audisons, I used the Audison Voce tweeter to match vs. the Pioneer Stage 4 tweeter. I'd really like to say that these made my smile. The tweeter did, not so much the midrange. I did quite like the tweeter - it was much lighter (if that makes any sense) than the Stage 4 tweeter but I'd say the Stage 4 tweeter had an edge up in helping to make whatever stage I had seem more full - it filled the truck up better. Granted the Stage 4 was being run off of its own crossover vs. the Audison being run off of a crossover not made for it... but, in its defense, the Audison tweeter was still better overall. Some tuning on it and it'd be great (more tuning and the Stage 4 would be great, too). So, the midrange was kind of flat. I think it really wants to be in an enclosure of sorts, at least not sitting free air without any back wave separation. Stuffing a towel back there helped a lot and you started hearing what was missing from it (the throaty part of voices, some semblance of bass). I began to realize a 3" would be nice to have up there because it captures just that teeny bit of bass that might help bring the sub stage up.

The H-Audio? Well... I lied before. In this application, it would not suffice, for me, as a full ranger. I used both tweeters with this guy and the Pioneer sounded best with it (which is not what I expected). It still had that plastic sound but stuffing the back of the mount area with a towel started to solve that, though not as dramatically as with the Audison. This guy probably needs to be in an enclosure if it's going to be sitting in a dash firing up and toward the rearview mirror as is the case in my truck. I mean this is all a temporary rigged up install so it probably is more-so the install than anything. I expect all of these drivers to sound far better when installed properly (and coupled with their midbass). Anywho, what this bugger did great was upper end detail. Compared to the Pioneer, it was more natural on its higher ranges and more capable at the low end. I keep wanting to hear this driver in a proper enclosure/installation situation to see what it can do. The only full ranger of this caliber (by reputation) that I've heard in real life is a Hybrid something or other and that was excellent, but also in custom pods, which ain't happening. So, I've decided to scrap the H-Audio from the running and will either make little desktop speakers with it or sell the pair (used for, I'd say, 1-hour total in their entire life). 

The Dayton comes Friday. We'll see what that sounds like. Other than that, I'm thinking of doing the following - installing the Pioneer Stage 4 in its mounting cup (sealed enclosure). This will require an ever so slight shaving of the hole to make it bigger. It'd end up being big enough to house the Audison Voce at that point... almost. The lip of the Audison will require some shaving down of plastic that's kind of structural so I'll save the Audisons for stage 2 of my build, where I'll make or have made (probably have made) dash pods in these locations with more technically correct aiming, etc., like Jasons BRZ.

And so it goes... progress but no progress.


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## Darkrider

Sub'd.

Looking forward to see how this goes. I'm sure I'll end up working on one of these trucks soon enough.


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## sirbOOm

This truck seems like a good canvas and its built way better than the 2011 NNBS I had before, at least from an audio potential standpoint. I'm very happy with it and I hope it inspires more speaker manufacturers to make 2.5" midranges vs. always 3" or 4" as that is what fits in the dash without modification (or a tweeter...). 

The problem from a 12v power perspective with this truck is the battery and power wiring in the engine bay. The stock setup is complicated and, while possible to dismantle, it'd be obvious to a GM tech and you're asking for warranty issues.

OEM appears to be 4AWG wire from the alternator to the fused distribution pack on top of the battery, a very short 4AWG to the positive terminal on the battery, 4AWG main ground, smaller ground to the frame I think, and a bunch of big wires that go off to the fuse block two places somewhere down below. All of these big wires are wrapped in a huge flex loom tube very nicely including some areas where there's heat protection. Great build quality sometimes has its downsides, haha. It's got one of those fancy build-in fuse things, as just mentioned, but putting new battery terminals on it won't be tough... it just has one of those damn reverse, recessed terminal batteries so I once again can't use my Die Hard Platinum without surgery. 

Plus side, it does have an open 175A location (perhaps where GM routes power to a second battery?). I'm considering using that for a second battery run. Doing a Big 3 will be harder to make look "stock" because of all of this fancy stuff, but possible, and I'll once again have to pull the GM ground terminal because it's sort of this all-in one crimped deal vs. something I can cleanly bolt to. In my 2011, I did the Big 3 and you would have never noticed if it wasn't for the Die Hard Platinum in there.

Anyone know where I can get a 0AWG version of the GM negative battery terminal? I want it to look so stock that I won't catch the attention of a GM service technician. I will be adding a second battery in, probably. In the ideal world, I'd have a second alternator running a battery for the audio system only. That would be expensive...


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## casey

interesting comparisons for sure. I never used the pioneer tweeter on the stage 4 set but did enjoy the mid range quite a bit. I was putting 120w to them. Your original demo was a bit different than my impression but it looks like it is more in line with what I thought once you put some power to them. 

havent heard the other two but they all seem to have their ups and downs.


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## sirbOOm

What were your thoughts about it? I'd like to look for what you observed.


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## casey

It seemed to sound bigger than it was. I agree that the low midrange isnt as strong but its not a large driver. I ended up crossing mine from 400/18 up with 120w. I thought it was not laid back but not in your face. It had good detail. I had a very "temporary" mounting f them. drivers side was directly on axis, passenger side was 30-45* off axis Id guess. 

Unhook that stage 4 tweeter, play the midranges amped. If you used the x over from the 2 way set, that tweeter is playing from 2kish up with the mid range. with a 220 x over i wouldnt put more than 50 to them for testing purposes but they took 120+ where I had them no problem


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## RandyJ75

Sub'ed

Interested to see what mid you go with.

Sometimes having too many options is a bad thing...


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## sirbOOm

Too many options IS a bad thing... 

So another long-winded update. Today I did some experimenting giving signal from the stock head unit to the amplifier so that I can actually use the door speakers as midbasses, essentially (although 6x9 were getting a full range signal... is what it is). Having the midbass spectrum in play really changes the game here. The Pioneer blended very well, the Audison mid and tweet shined (also noticed how well they match my interior, which is nice), and, again, while the H-Audio was excellent, I wasn't in love with it... but I have GOT to chalk that up to the fact that it is just NOT in the environment it needs to be in and it's literally sitting stuffed in a small hole held in by pressure on its basket. Not ideal.

I focused my time and energy on the Pioneer because I've decided to move forward with them for now knowing that it will not be the death of me to change over to the Audisons in the future or some Ground Zero equipment (they have 2.5" midrange coming here soon). I guess changing out the door speaker would be annoying but I will just make 4 baffle sets instead of 2 when I make baffles and, aside from the door card pull, it'll be a quick swap. I do suspect, though, that the Pioneer midbass is better than the Audison midbass. From what I read about the Pioneer vs. the Audison, it seems the Pioneer is more capable... so a switch could never be necessary. Curiosity will kill me though, so I'll have to do it.


















As you can see in the photos above, I am strongly considering using the surface mount cup in this "sail panel" location. In fact, this is where the Musicar Northwest guys threw their tweeter, although they did some beautiful blend work to that panel and, it looks like, pointed the tweeters at each other vs. I'm going to be aiming them. I would have preferred to hide the tweeter under the dash grill by the midrange for the stock-est of looks, but not a single one of the tweeters I've tried sounded that great there and there's really only one spot they'd go (without cutting I'm not interested in doing just yet) and they all sort of cover the midrange a tad... so that is out of the question. This area in my vehicle, when the door is closed, essentially hides the ugliness of a surface mount cup - it's like a little cubby area for it and the surface cup bridges the gap between the sail panel itself and clears the a-pillar so I can aim it where it sounds the best, which seemed to be up toward the dome lights. I tried also a location on the lower A-pillars and, while it also sounded good, the stage narrowed noticeably. Blending (with the midrange) was good enough in either location but there'll be some tuning needed in this A-pillar location to address some reflections that would be more manageable if A-pillar mounted, I'm sure. This is the advantage of going to these SQ meets. I've been to three of them in three states plus I've heard my share of installs elsewhere, and I learned that I seem to like the tweeter closer to me and at least notably wider relative to the midrange. I'm guessing, in these instances, the reason I like this is because I am able to pick out the lead singer (who tends to have the highest fidelity to his/her audio track and thus the most detailed tweeter duty) and separate him/her from the background singers (who tend to be more faded and more biased toward the midrange speaker's range of duty). But I could just be making that up because my name isn't Bikinpunk or Scott Buwalda, haha.

So, in order to help me make progress, and as you may have picked up, I will be doing a "first stage" install that will not involve serious modifications first. The goal is to refine my ability to TUNE before I go getting nuts. Probably toward the end of the summer, I'll consider some fancier work and, like I think I said above, a transition to Ground Zero's midrange. I still am not LOVING the Pioneer, though it is much better. Honestly I think the iPod to the amplifier approach for a signal source wasn't ideal... I have a feeling that iPod is sending some ****ty signal because even with my home stereo music from it sounds iffy. I have all Apple's lossless on there... wonder if it doesn't like that? Hmm...

Oh, here's the tweeter in its cup. The tape on there is holding it in, I wasn't about to perm mount it in there with that clippy thing they give you (which I do not like the ideal of but I'm sure it'll work fine). This location opens out with the door so it needs to be strong so the tweeter doesn't pop off. I'll figure something out if it isn't. You can also see the tweeter housings that come with the Pioneer Stage 4 components are a (borderline cheesy, IMO) shiny black with a sort of brass/gold fleck to them. This blends nicely with the tweeter, which unfortunately has a gold tone to the membrane. Looks almost lit up from behind, even.


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## sirbOOm

Fast Hot Rod said:


> Any pics of the A-pillar area? Backs of the A-pillar itself? I'm curious to see what's going on in there. Thanks!


Here's your A-pillar pictures. The right side, with the handle, is different in the "handle region" but if you stick within up to about three inches up from the orange sticker in this photo, you can put a tweeter in there I think symmetric on both sides.


























In any event, you want to keep that clip in the middle by my thumb on the driver's side one because that houses a little wire that retains the A-pillar up there in the event of an accident that deploys the airbag. No A-pillars with fiberglassed speakers inside of them in the face is ideal.


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## Fast Hot Rod

Thanks for the pics!


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## sirbOOm

(Not much has been done for system progress.)

Bringing this to the top to request opinions on the amplification. I'm heading strongly toward a 3-way active. Thus, I've been considering NOT using the ZED amplifiers, which I can use in this situation. Instead, considering using the following:
- JL Audio XD800/8v2
- JL Audio XD1000/1v2

I'd bridge the last 4-channels of the 8-channel for the midbasses in a 3-way.

We've these but never a purposeful high SQ type install. The sub amps of these that we've installed haven't been all that amazing, IMO, but it has always been a sub I don't care for (like a W3, for example). Been in one vehicle that was high SQ oriented and he said he was just starting tuning or something so I guess I didn't have an idea of potential. JL HD's have been in competition-winning vehicles, has anyone ever come across JL XD's in competition "placing" vehicles? Thoughts on this setup? Just brainstorming... trying to stay with just two amplifiers if I can.


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## Darkrider

I've been thinking of swapping out the 2 Mosconi's in my Cruze (AS100.4 and AS200.4) for 2 x JL Audio XD1000/5v2's. All of the XD amps I have demo'd have sounded as good as the HD's to my ear. The XD's are plenty small as well.

I hear you on the sub amps though. They have the power on paper, but I haven't really been wowed by output of any of the XD or HD amps. I heard a Challenger that had 2 x HD750/1's running 2 x 10w6's and I wasn't very impressed. Then again, I might have lost my ability to be objective due to my Camaro.


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## sirbOOm

Haven't been doing anything with my truck. It will be going in to the dealer Monday - apparently Chevrolet has cheapened out on the frame/rear axle rust protection. I have more rust on both at 2K mi. (not serious but concerning nonetheless) than I did on my 2011 at 22K mi. (it had zero rust). I'm going to nip this hella-BS in the bud before I go installing things as I likely will be running the power wire on the outside of the vehicle (easier to hide, plus I want to run a supplementary ground wire back to the battery to hopefully never have noise). Shoulda bought the Toyota, says everyone I know...

In the mean time, I've been making some unique speaker gifts for some people.

This is my second speaker box, still under construction - a unique gift for a girl I'm dating who likes to cook (thank God). Basically an old wooden recipe box with two Peerless 830984's (8-ohm) firing in opposite directions. The mini amplifier is still in the mail, along with the speaker terminals and 250 μF capacitors, but hooked up to a cheap Lepai amp I have, it actually sounds pretty good. I'll stuff it a bit and might seal the cap to the top of it in an attempt to make a sealed box. I did cause a crack as you might see by not drilling a large enough hole for the speaker mounting screw, but I'll just call that character (and beginner's error... need to slow down). It's wood+super glued back together and won't come apart no matter what I do, haha. Oh well...


----------



## Coppertone

Very nicely done, is that a mini motorcycle next to it ? If so is it possible to see that and the story behind it ?


----------



## sirbOOm

Yeah, here's a better photo. A girl gave it to me as a birthday gift. No idea where she got it from but it weighs A LOT - it's all metal, like my Harley. No stamped plastic tanks for me!


















Anywho, I finally unboxed my Stereo Integrity BM mkIV (this is the sub I'll be using). And by unboxing, I mean unboxing about 5 different boxes just to get to the somabich. Nice, Nick... nice. It's a 12", that's for sure. Big around! I've only been dealing with 10" subwoofers in trucks and its bigger in-person than my measurements made it seem, so the original center console/passenger footwell idea is probably going to have to be pushed to the "Stage II" of my build. See photos. It's just a bit big for this area as is but I can make room for it by pulling the panels you see with the plugs and storage compartment where the OEM center console would slide into or build a completely new center console thus putting the subwoofer downfiring in-between the two seats kind of like the JL Stealthbox in the NNBS Silverado/Sierras. For now, I'm going to go with a standard-looking downfire box in the back that will be yielding the .5 cubes this bugger wants (though I'll be doing some stuffing, probably). This box will be built right but not the fancy custom kirfed stuff that we're seeing on this forum a lot. If I like the sound of it in the back, then I'll build that kind of seamless box. I've never kirfed before but Mark or one of the other guys at the shop will help me. (I don't get to build too many boxes to be honest.)

Anywho... I will be doing a separate review once this is installed. But I must say that I'm having a hard time NOT showing this thing off in some sort of plexiglass box. I mean look at it. It's not something you see every day. If I were rich, I'd jack my truck up and have wheels made to match this thing and have it down firing in a plexi box replacing the center console and you would be able to see it, but I'm not rich so that'd be a nope. Plus, haha, I need as much gas mileage as I can get, g'dammit.

Unboxing...

















































And playing around with placement...

































Honestly, if I do the center console or passenger foot well idea, I might have that built for me. Depends on how crafty I feel like getting in a brand new truck. It has to be perfect. BTW, I can't remove that black plastic you see behind/around the woofer - that covers up things like the heater core and ac thing and all that jumble juice that is behind there.


----------



## Electrodynamic

sirbOOm said:


> Anywho, I finally unboxed my Stereo Integrity BM mkIV (this is the sub I'll be using). And by unboxing, I mean unboxing about 5 different boxes just to get to the somabich. Nice, Nick... nice.


You're welcome.  I tend to go a little bit overboard with shipping on my high-end products. The BM mkIV's are shipped in triple boxes before being placed into 16x16x16" shipping boxes. You should see what I do for the 24" woofers - those are bagged, put into wooden crates, and then put into 28x28x21" shipping boxes.


----------



## mires

Electrodynamic said:


> You should see what I do for the 24" woofers - those are bagged, put into wooden crates, and then put into 28x28x21" shipping boxes.


Nuh uh. Send one to me so I can see


----------



## sirbOOm

Do need to work on your handwriting though - yikes!


----------



## plcrides

so thats what a new chevy looks like inside,hmm nice.i like how you threw in the part,its heavy,you know like my harley.lol


----------



## sirbOOm

Well... the dealership I took the truck to for the frame rust issue told me basically to go fly a kite and go back to the dealer I bought it at and "see what they say". I called GM about this and they were, of course, "OMG, how rude blah blah blah..." but didn't take any information unless I forced it upon them so, needless to say they don't give a flying F and this is going to be my third vehicle nightmare in less than a year's time. As such, I'm putting audio on hold for now because I will not have a vehicle that turns into a rotted frame 5 years from now. This is the same thing at early mileage that was happening to the first gen Toyota Tundras that eventually split in half due to frame rust in 4-5 years! It may just be that I find a way to dump this truck, too. I probably can't afford to, though. I'm too preoccupied with this to be screwing in speakers.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

Dang, man... that sucks. How bad is the rust? I ask because my LTZ Z-71 frame is totally coated with some kind of black wax/grease all over... it totally sucks to work on, because I get that crap all over the place.

I've had more than my fair share of Chevy products, and the only ones that became rust buckets were the ones that were driven around up north in the salt... and even then, they didn't have frame issues. (Bodies looked like Swiss cheese, though... salt does a real number on them.)


----------



## sirbOOm

Mine has the same coating but in 2014 they must have cheapened out or something...


----------



## jpf150

Should have bought a Ford Nick...haha. Just messing with ya. I hope everything works out for you.


----------



## sirbOOm

I honestly do not like the F-150 - ugly to me. Looks matter - I'm superficial, haha. I considered the Toyota but their gas mileage, especially considering it's a damn Toyota, is HORRIBLE comparatively. Alas... their frames are painted. I liked basically ONE model of the Dodge Ram (essentially the "Sport" one with no chrome) but it just didn't get me hard so I passed. The Nissan? Nope.

Update: another dealer today offered to do some undercoating work to repair the issues. It'll be a patch job but that's the best I can get from GM/Chevrolet/dealer right now and we'll see what GM gets me - might push for some sort of refund or extended warranty or something, I don't know - I'm very unhappy about this but at least someone is stepping up. That'll be done Friday. Weirdly nobody is offering up paperwork about my concern... this all seems under the table (i.e., no appointment necessary for a 3-4 hour job? Hmm). I'm going to insist on paperwork proving I had this done. I'll have an undercoating job done at a truck customization place, as well... I'm not interested in a rusty undercarriage. About $300.

And... that means... we're back in the game for audio.

But, nothing to report. I can't decide which gauge speaker wire I want to use. JK!

One of the Pioneer Stage 4 midbasses blew in a sealed box during bench testing so that's getting replaced. No idea WTF happened... I didn't treat it poorly. Amp checks out. Ohwell... at least it's getting replaced. Hopefully not a sign of things to come.

Hopefully I can begin some real work this weekend... been strapped for time. Sucks when you're needed at work - gets in the way of hobbies.


----------



## jpf150

Sounds like you thought of it all haha. To be honest, the newer style f150's haven't done much for me. But the raptor or an f250?..Now I'd love one of those. 

Good on that stealership at least trying to help you out. I would definitely get and keep all paperwork on it though just in case down the line something goes wrong.

I know how it goes with the whole work thing, but sometimes you just have to make time for audio so we can see some updates! lol. Good luck in your endeavors, and I'll be watching this thread since it's another truck build.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

Mine is a 2014 as well... it's a Crew Cab, so it's a Mexico truck vs. the others that are made in Indiana or Michigan. Maybe that's the difference?


----------



## sirbOOm

The Mexico and USA-built ones are both rusting at the frame. The SM at the second dealer was explaining to me that they do not dip the frames anymore, just paint the stuff on, that they have a different supplier for a spray-able coating, and that's why.

I found today that Kicker makes a factory integration subwoofer. I'm not interested in their plastic subwoofer box and subwoofer but I am interested in their T-harness that they use to get speaker signal. 

Kicker SoundGate factory upgrade for a Silverado

See the second picture in the link. The green plug in the dash has a T-harness coming out of it. I HATE, HATE, HATE tapping into and/or cutting OEM wiring when someone can just make a g'dam T-harness, yet nobody seems to. Well one is being made through Kicker here and I'm going to try and get them to sell me just that harness.

Does anyone know anyone at Kicker/Stillwater, haha! I already contacted Metra, they have no plans to make this.

Speaker wires are going into a RF360.3 for this install. I'm going to have to mitigate the LOUD AS FUDGE bongs and turn signal sounds being amplified to even louder-ness. Not sure what to do about them in this truck.


----------



## sirbOOm

Edit: Metra gave me the reverse harness P/N: 71-2107.

Hopefully we have it, not online anywhere. Gonna give that a try. I'd rather pay $ for a T-harness that tap/solder wires. Time is money.


----------



## DCSierra

^let me know how that works out as I plan on adding a sub to my Bose system


----------



## sirbOOm

This would not apply to the Bose system, the wiring signals for which are at the amplifier on the back wall. Reports online say not to use the factory Bose subwoofer high-level off of the Bose amp because it's crossed pretty sharply to handle only very low Hz range; instead just use the front or rear door signal and cut off where you want with your amplifier.


----------



## Coppertone

Sorry to barge into your posting, just curious as to whether you were able to sell your Lincoln.


----------



## sirbOOm

No, not sold yet. Only offers were from people that intend on making it a "donk" (big rims, poor restoration work, not taken care of) and I will not allow it.


----------



## Coppertone

Sorry to say but close to where I live is the capital of that lifestyle lol. They've got cars with $50,000 in mods done to them. All the while working at Burger King, hmmmmmmm.


----------



## sirbOOm

To each their own... to each their own. Ug. If someone has the plans to do that to this Lincoln, I simply do not want to know about it at the time of sale. I don't need to sell it so I get to be a pit picky, I guess.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

sirbOOm said:


> The Mexico and USA-built ones are both rusting at the frame. The SM at the second dealer was explaining to me that they do not dip the frames anymore, just paint the stuff on, that they have a different supplier for a spray-able coating, and that's why.
> 
> I found today that Kicker makes a factory integration subwoofer. I'm not interested in their plastic subwoofer box and subwoofer but I am interested in their T-harness that they use to get speaker signal.
> 
> Kicker SoundGate factory upgrade for a Silverado
> 
> See the second picture in the link. The green plug in the dash has a T-harness coming out of it. I HATE, HATE, HATE tapping into and/or cutting OEM wiring when someone can just make a g'dam T-harness, yet nobody seems to. Well one is being made through Kicker here and I'm going to try and get them to sell me just that harness.
> 
> Does anyone know anyone at Kicker/Stillwater, haha! I already contacted Metra, they have no plans to make this.


If Helm would get off their asses and release the factory Silverado service manuals, I'd by a set and have the Delco part numbers to make those harnesses... as it stands, I'm having to do some research to find them, and I'm not having much luck.



> Speaker wires are going into a RF360.3 for this install. I'm going to have to mitigate the LOUD AS FUDGE bongs and turn signal sounds being amplified to even louder-ness. Not sure what to do about them in this truck.


This was a problem on some of the Corvette installs, but it was figured out that the sound only came from one speaker... so it was easily bypassed/ignored.

If that's the case in our trucks, then maybe you could run the rear HU outputs to the RF360 for the main audio signal, then use a small speaker under the dash ran off the front left channel for the beeps/bongs? You would lose the ability to fade front/rear, but that could be added back in with one of those cheap RCA knob deals.


----------



## sirbOOm

I can do the rear speakers, yeah. I've done high-level to a processor/amplifier and not had overly loud bongs. Just the way you set things up sometimes. We'll see what happens.


----------



## Madcow

Try adjusting the warning chimes volume via the my link vehicle feature setting first. 


Sent from the future via a wifi time portal.


----------



## sirbOOm

Hmmmm... I should probably look at my manual for once. Had no idea you could do that.


----------



## Madcow

Check this video out. You can also change the door unlock setting and auto side mirror tilt features. 
http://youtu.be/A9rx59jXF3o


Sent from the future via a wifi time portal.


----------



## sirbOOm

Before I even signed a bit of paperwork, I'd make that dealer take off that huge, ugly dealer logo on the back. Why do dealers think they can bumper sticker cars? Good lord...


----------



## Madcow

I agree. Thankfully thats not my truck, my dealer didn't put any of that crap on mine. 


Sent from the future via a wifi time portal.


----------



## sirbOOm

Madcow said:


> Try adjusting the warning chimes volume via the my link vehicle feature setting first.
> 
> 
> Sent from the future via a wifi time portal.


My volume setting is adjusted all the way down and it's still loud. I'm going to complain to the dealer/GM about htis just to see if they might have a way to turn it down even more.


----------



## Madcow

If you register as a mylink app developer you will have access to all of the software on the mylink system


Sent from the future via a wifi time portal.


----------



## sirbOOm

I couldn't code to save my life.


----------



## Black Rain

Looking alright so far Nick. I'm curious, but are you going to use a 6.5" MB. If you have the ability to use an 8" I would probably do so. It will allow for more upfront low end, and also allow to blend in the sub much better.

I have read and heard all good reports on the Silver Flute 8"
The Madisound Speaker Store

I have been looking into them for my install and they are inexpensive at Madisound.


----------



## sirbOOm

I have Peerless SLS 8" that I'm going to see if they fit for giggles. Plan at the top of my head right now is to put a matching set of Pioneer Stage 4 mids in front and back doors, a semi-active 3-way front stage consisting of the Pioneer Stage 4 mid and a .5" Dayton tweeter from Parts-Express behind a self-made and simple 6K Hz crossover mounted really close to each other to maintain as good of time alignment on a shared channel as I can. The tweeter is just a small bitty one for air kind of like the Audible Physics concept using that little bitty AMT that I'd buy if I could just find them (will be a fun experiment, otherwise I'll french in a separate tweeter). Also thinking of Tang Band 6.9 subs for the door and, yes, the Peerless SLS 8's. But this will be a staged build no doubt so things might change even after "I'm done". As money and skill comes, changes will be made. I can install fine, but I'm not necessarily the fabricator some of the guys/gals on this forum are (not that baffles are hard to fabricate, thinking more of the subwoofer box stuff) so I want to start with a simple, high quality install first.  

Had a bit of a setback with my temporary box. Had it made (not at my shop, FYI) and, to keep it short, it's not going to fly at all. Going to try to get this resolved but may have to build the temporary box myself or might just do a fiberglass situation under the seat behind the driver for now... was hoping to not have to and to focus more on the speakers, wiring, and amplifier installations in my "Stage I" build here because of the complexity of my hopes and dreams for the subwoofer stage. Plus I have my Harley engine and my spare MEL 462 (Lincoln) engine apart for refresh work and I don't want MDF dust flying around anywhere near them.


----------



## casey

sounds like a good start, got some stuff to play with at least.

so you decided to go with the stage 4 mid range and mid bass?


----------



## sirbOOm

casey said:


> sounds like a good start, got some stuff to play with at least.
> 
> so you decided to go with the stage 4 mid range and mid bass?


Yeah, at least for now. The Pioneer Stage 4 stuff is a really great value, at the very least, and I hope will sound great. I'm not sure I'm going to love the tweeter but... I rarely love any tweeter than isn't an Infinity EMIT-R... haha. And that f'er is just too big.

To be honest... I'm trying to get over the "wiring hump". I do have all the wiring I need, I think... might not have enough power wire in my personal inventory but that's easily acquired, if needed. Just gotta do everything at once including deadening and I need a week with no rain predicted so I can reliably use my Harley for transportation ( HATE riding in the rain) vs. putting the truck back together every night just so I can go to work. Really only get a few hours a day to do "stuff in general" like errands and this and thats because of my work load right now... grrrrr.

Using Stinger 14AWG pro speaker wire everywhere (sub run and coils will get 12AWG, though), 0AWG OFC for amp power (only 2AWG OFC is needed, though), and I'll figure out a Big 3 for this truck that has really goofy + wiring in the engine bay and it must look STOCK in the engine bay - don't want to be bringing attention to my wiring work at the dealer. Also using mostly T-SPEC fused + and non-fused - distribution blocks and a GM OEM fuse box for the engine bay. Need to fabricate a fuse mount... getting there....


----------



## sirbOOm

Alrighty! Finally finished the recipe box speaker thingy that I was making (some photos of it were above). Working great, gets very loud. Not as good as your higher-end Bose sound dock sorta things but it's not bad actually. Should have crossed the drivers over higher but I'm not paying shipping for more caps... job is done. 


































The top is now sealed. The inside is filled with foam stuff that came as packaging padding in my Stereo Integrity box, haha. It uses a little bitty mini Chinese amplifier from Parts-Express and the wires you see are an AUX cable and the power cord. The knob there is the volume knob, of course. I didn't other with ports there because the ones I could find were not suited for as thick of wood (cedar, I think... smells like it when being drilled into) as the box is. Ohwell...

Here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PbRZnYRs5E

Not bad for a first "non car audio" speaker project, eh?


----------



## sirbOOm

Now back to the truck... haha. Gonna do some stuff this weekend me thinks.


----------



## Darkrider

sirbOOm said:


> Alrighty! Finally finished the recipe box speaker thingy that I was making (some photos of it were above). Working great, gets very loud. Not as good as your higher-end Bose sound dock sorta things but it's not bad actually. Should have crossed the drivers over higher but I'm not paying shipping for more caps... job is done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The top is now sealed. The inside is filled with foam stuff that came as packaging padding in my Stereo Integrity box, haha. It uses a little bitty mini Chinese amplifier from Parts-Express and the wires you see are an AUX cable and the power cord. The knob there is the volume knob, of course. I didn't other with ports there because the ones I could find were not suited for as thick of wood (cedar, I think... smells like it when being drilled into) as the box is. Ohwell...
> 
> Here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PbRZnYRs5E
> 
> Not bad for a first "non car audio" speaker project, eh?


I like it.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

sirbOOm said:


> The Pioneer Stage 4 stuff is a really great value


Please don't take this the wrong way... but 'value?' 

I had a set of the original TS-C720PRS in my C5 Corvette and thought they were great... and I got them on sale so I snatched them up. They rocked my bawlz off, no doubt.

...but I looked around and the only thing I find similar to that today is the Pioneer Stage 4 set of TS-C720PRS but they aren't cheap. I saw that Crutchfield has them, along with the Pioneer Stage 4 TS-S062PRS mids for $675 shipped.

Maybe I'm just a cheap-azz... but that's a lot of coin to drop on component speakers. (Unless you know where I can get some for less than that?)

Thanks!


----------



## sirbOOm

Considered the price of other branded 3-way component sets of a similar caliber, yes.

With Crutchfield's sale, it's a no-brainer option, IMO, for a first time 3-way setup, at the very least, and one to consider against the usual suspects. The midbass driver with these has been highly, highly regarded. In my research, the midrange has been loved every time I come across someone that has one. I haven't heard such love for the tweeter but I haven't heard anything bad about it. The Audison Voce 3-way set I have, without any sort of crossover, would cost more retail than the regular price of this Pioneer Stage 4 3-way and, while Voce is great, you can get even mor expensive pretty easily. As Al Gore would probably use for logic: trust me, I know value... I invented value.


----------



## sirbOOm

In other news... life has been getting in the way of progress and I am going to wait until the middle of the month to do anything. Not that anyone is paying attn to this anymore!


----------



## mires

sirbOOm said:


> In other news... life has been getting in the way of progress and I am going to wait until the middle of the month to do anything. Not that anyone is paying attn to this anymore!


Damn life. Always mucking things up.


----------



## sirbOOm

Okay. So I made a teeny bit of progress. Mounted the BM mkIV into its (temporary) standard issue underseat box. This is a .6 cf pre-fab box. Space under the 2014 Silverado Double Cab rear seats seems to be less than before, though my fiberglass box from my 2011 Silverado Extended Cab does fit nicely. But like I said, it's temporary. Either I'm doing some center console work in the future (hopefully before fall) or I'm going to do some fiberglassing and kerfing for a nice sealed box under the rear driver's side seat (something that looks like it belongs). Making some progress for now, though.

National Geographic-grade photo of the leads soldered to the terminal cup:







[/url]

The terminal cup in its home. Wooooowww!!!!









I used 8/32 Hurricane nuts on most screw holes. The sub is so big that in three places I had to use regular screws that go into pilot-drilled holes straight into the side boards. Mostly just wanted to practice using the hurricane nuts and figure if I have to take the subwoofer out I'll have less to worry about for stripped screw holes.









The BM mkIV being wired in series with 12AWG OFC. My amplifier, a ZED Minotaur II, is a beast so I decided it'd be better if I go series vs. parallel on this particular sub.









The other side. I have to say the way that the terminals are spaced on this subwoofer is really convenient. I was able to not have to twist and jive to get a wire from one side to the total opposite, basically only had to go 1/4 of the way around.









Here's how she looks in the box. As you can see... a "barely fit" situation. I had to have the box remade because the first time they made it, the hole was off-center and the flange hung over the edge. I have no identifiable air leaks. The gasket around the sub was kind of difficult to work with. The screw holes should be bigger for my bit and so they don't hold in a screw when backing them out. A minor inconvenience. And yes, I had it made... haha. I don't want MDF dust all over the friggin' place for a temp. box.









Interestingly, wiring these in series produced a 6.5-ohm load from a dual-4 ohm VC subwoofer. Not the worlds most accurate DMM but it's always been very close. This is the only time it's been essentially 1 ohm off from what I'd expect. Regardless, I doubt this is anything to worry about. The subwoofer works perfectly... 









It also looks shockingly similar to my KEF home theater setup subwoofer! That little sub is accompanied by a passive radiator and it gets very low and is great overall... wish it hit a bit harder but its like... 75 watts or something.  









I played the BM mkIV full range off of my Yamaha home theater receiver. I always do this just to make sure everybody is working - a bench test, basically. There is something very unique about this woofer. For one, it sounds better FULL RANGE than some speakers I've heard. I could literally hear cymbals crashing better than some 6.5" midbasses I've come across. I mean clearly it was missing treble like a somabich but it was a surprise. Just the other day I had been fooling with my Morel Ultimo 10" in its box off of my receiver and it wouldn't do that at all - or at least as well. Of course I don't need a sub to be a full-range speaker, but here's the kicker to it. The bass it was producing felt like it was just "coming from nature". While it was playing, I was cooking some pork chops. I came back into the room and watched me some "The Wire" (to continue my binge) and had forgotten I plugged the sub in. My KEF subwoofer was off. I kept thinking how there was a lot of very lowwwww bass during the end credit song of the wire that has some bass in it. Never heard that before - it was the BM mkIV! The bass coming from it sounded better, in this situation (so grain of salt), than both a Morel Ultimo 10" and 12" in their right-sized boxes off of the HT receiver. While I can't assume this will translate into the car environment (those Morels are sex to me), I am excited!


----------



## Electrodynamic

sirbOOm said:


> Okay. So I made a teeny bit of progress. Mounted the BM mkIV into its (temporary) standard issue underseat box. This is a .6 cf pre-fab box. Space under the 2014 Silverado Double Cab rear seats seems to be less than before, though my fiberglass box from my 2011 Silverado Extended Cab does fit nicely. But like I said, it's temporary. Either I'm doing some center console work in the future (hopefully before fall) or I'm going to do some fiberglassing and kerfing for a nice sealed box under the rear driver's side seat (something that looks like it belongs). Making some progress for now, though.
> 
> 
> The other side. I have to say the way that the terminals are spaced on this subwoofer is really convenient. I was able to not have to twist and jive to get a wire from one side to the total opposite, basically only had to go 1/4 of the way around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I played the BM mkIV full range off of my Yamaha home theater receiver. I always do this just to make sure everybody is working - a bench test, basically. There is something very unique about this woofer. For one, it sounds better FULL RANGE than some speakers I've heard. I could literally hear cymbals crashing better than some 6.5" midbasses I've come across. I mean clearly it was missing treble like a somabich but it was a surprise. Just the other day I had been fooling with my Morel Ultimo 10" in its box off of my receiver and it wouldn't do that at all - or at least as well. Of course I don't need a sub to be a full-range speaker, but here's the kicker to it. The bass it was producing felt like it was just "coming from nature". While it was playing, I was cooking some pork chops. I came back into the room and watched me some "The Wire" (to continue my binge) and had forgotten I plugged the sub in. My KEF subwoofer was off. I kept thinking how there was a lot of very lowwwww bass during the end credit song of the wire that has some bass in it. Never heard that before - it was the BM mkIV! The bass coming from it sounded better, in this situation (so grain of salt), than both a Morel Ultimo 10" and 12" in their right-sized boxes off of the HT receiver. While I can't assume this will translate into the car environment (those Morels are sex to me), I am excited!


When wired in series the terminals used for power are a good bit apart as you found out. And yes, you could mate up the BM mkIV to a dome mid and tweeter and have a full range system. Such are the benefits from a low inductance voice coil subwoofer.  Let us know what you think when you get it fired up in your vehicle.  Great preliminary review!


----------



## Electrodynamic

sirbOOm said:


> Interestingly, wiring these in series produced a 6.5-ohm load from a dual-4 ohm VC subwoofer. Not the worlds most accurate DMM but it's always been very close. This is the only time it's been essentially 1 ohm off from what I'd expect. Regardless, I doubt this is anything to worry about. The subwoofer works perfectly...


I just noticed this part of your post. Your DCR measurements are correct. I designed the woofer with a slightly lower DCR to get you guys more power into the woofer than a static 8.0 Ohm load would get you. More power into your speaker means higher SPL and every decent amplifier can handle the load because it's not _that_ much lower than what any decent amp can handle.


----------



## sirbOOm

Well, folks, I'm delaying again because I'm having FM/HD-FM reception issues with my truck. If I do any stereo work, they'll blame that vs. the actual, common issue. FM reception is terrible. My 1968 Lincoln will pickup stations better than it. HD radio cuts in and out and there's a delay between regular FM and HD-FM resulting in the radio being itolerable to listen to - you almost can't follow conversations in certain areas. All of this occurs in Atlanta, around Atlanta, all within a distance that every previous vehicle I've had has had zero issues with. It's almost as if the signal needs to be boosted. There's threads on these on Silverado/Sierra/GM forums and GM hasn't issued a fix, just a TSB stating that the FM/HD-FM switching is normal. Hell... even my lemon Mercedes had no issues with the radio reception. It is 2014...

Hear's my first video of the FM issue (turn the car off, get better reception???!?!?!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xljF6VSvHg

But at least I can put out a final build list for ya'll to judge and hate upon :

Power Wiring (tinned copper lugs, where needed):
- Main Power: 2AWG RADAFLEX (may upgrade to 1/0, but technically not needed)
- Main Ground Back to Battery + Redundant Body Ground: 2AWG RADAFLEX
- Power to Amplifiers: 4AWG RADAFLEX
- Distribution: T-SPEC fused (+) and regular (-) blocks

Amplifiers:
- Active 3-way: ZED Leviathan III
- Sub-stage: ZED Minotaur II

(I'm really hoping these do not show their blue light much from behind the rear seat where they'll be mounted. I actually don't care for the blue lighting outside of maybe a trunk install, but I'm worried leaking blue light will hamper my rear view at night.)

Speakers:
- Front/Tweeters & Midbass: Pioneer Stage 4 TS-C172PRS (going to try this tweeter, not sure I like it, may replace)
- Front-Midrange: Pioneer Stage 4 TS-S062PRS 
- Rear-Midbass: Pioneer Premier TS-C720PRS (not enough channels if I do an active 3-way up front, will attempt to use a passive crossover for mid-tweet)
- Sub: Stereo Integrity BM mkIV

Head Unit: OEM GM myLink
Processor: RF 360.3 via high-level input


----------



## sirbOOm

FYI for you 2014 Silverado owners. Found instructions for removing the door panel (front, at least). They are from AMP Research who make the retractable running boards.

http://www.amp-research.com/?dl_id=249

Thank you AMP Research for making my life easier. Sorry I can't afford your running boards!!!


----------



## blackknight87

sirbOOm said:


> FYI for you 2014 Silverado owners. Found instructions for removing the door panel (front, at least). They are from AMP Research who make the retractable running boards.
> 
> http://www.amp-research.com/?dl_id=249
> 
> Thank you AMP Research for making my life easier. Sorry I can't afford your running boards!!!


Cool. 

Random thought, they spent all that time having someone draw pictures of the installation process, when they could have just taken real pictures that show so much more detail, while they installed a set of steps on a truck.


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## sirbOOm

Technical drawings show what you need to see, not the entire picture.

I'll try and remember to take step by step photos but I'll only post them after I sell them to Crutchfield. 

Kidding... (or am I?)


----------



## mires

sirbOOm said:


> I'll try and remember to take step by step photos but I'll only post them after I sell them to Crutchfield.
> 
> Kidding... (or am I?)


Make that money so you can keep this build going lol.


----------



## sirbOOm

So I spent time tonight trying to reverse engineer Chevy's relevant wiring for + and - big 3 (4, really). Unlike my 2011, the ground wires coming from the battery head off into a vast abyss behind the engine vs. in front, so totally replacing these wires will be a lot of work. Then the + alternator wire comes form the alt, heads into a shared loom with two other thick wires, then splits past that loom at a fancy fused battery terminal bank (mentioned in previous posts). This certainly can be re-done but it means a lot of hanging over the front of my truck removing OEM wire tape and loom... ug! Point being, no wires are independent and just zip tied together, they share looms all over. The engine to chassis ground is the looniest one... comes from the engine up front, then goes into a shared loom with I think a + wire, then seems to go across the engine and, with the limited lighting I had, I lost it... will have to figure out where it's off to. 

Usually I replace all stock wiring so as to have minimal evidence of work having been done to power wiring. With this vehicle, it might be the first time I "add on" to stock wiring. Also can't find anywhere the same battery terminals for a Group 48/94R style battery where the terminals are sunk and thus I need something that lifts up about 1" or so... bleeping annoying. Talk about over engineering, but I guess they figure most people won't need to be adjusting any of this! Haha. I miss GM side-posts.


----------



## sirbOOm

Alrighty, did some preliminary planning for the worst part of car audio: wiring through the door jam. Luckily, someone at GM decided NOT to make this a f'ing bloody nightmare like on, for example, VW vehicles or even my 2011 Silverado. Thank the baby jeebus!

Awesomeness #1: the door-side does NOT have a molex
Awesomeness #2: the body side molex's rubber boot just pops right off (press top, pull back, off...)
Awesomeness #3: the body side molex can be unclipped (haven't tried to but will update with how later...)
Awesomeness #4: the door-side boot does not require a NASA rocket scientist to get back on... took me a couple seconds!

The front door body-side molex - boot unclipped:









Another option for the front doors is to use this unused rubber-booted hole (see the little rubber stopper there under the mount and above the molex boot? That's a hole if you pop out the rubber stopper doo-dad. You can drill a hole in the door with a 90-degree and a step bit fairly easily (there's a big flat spot that looks suitable above where the rubber boot goes in) and use one of these. I might do this to avoid drilling out my molex. Was not able to determine in this quick look if I can just stuff some 14AWG through it, no drilling. The holes look big enough and maybe minor, non-obtrusive drilling will be easy. Sometimes you drill these things and can break internals clippy things that hold the pins in (like is easily possible VWs...). I can't tell yet if that would be the case, probably not from my experience with other GM vehicles (i.e., not german-style over-engineered!).


















And here is the same situation in the rear doors (double cab, mind you... I'd bet the same in a crew cab... why would it be any different?). No unused hole here, though.


















The last picture gives you a good idea of the size/look/feel of the empty holes.

I also noticed, while doing this, that no half-ass power wire wiring through the door jam is likely in this truck... thankfully. Too much crap in the way behind the fender to allude to the idea that it'd be an option. I hate when I see that. I just want to flip.


----------



## Darkrider

sirbOOm said:


> Alrighty, did some preliminary planning for the worst part of car audio: wiring through the door jam. Luckily, someone at GM decided NOT to make this a f'ing bloody nightmare like on, for example, VW vehicles or even my 2011 Silverado. Thank the baby jeebus!
> 
> Awesomeness #1: the door-side does NOT have a molex
> Awesomeness #2: the body side molex's rubber boot just pops right off (press top, pull back, off...)
> Awesomeness #3: the body side molex can be unclipped (haven't tried to but will update with how later...)
> Awesomeness #4: the door-side boot does not require a NASA rocket scientist to get back on... took me a couple seconds!


That is fantastic. It probably took you a few seconds with Awesomeness #4 because you couldn't believe that they would make it that easy.


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## sirbOOm

Reason I haven't gone anywhere yet is I'm having the dreaded 4AWD GM truck downshift clunk between gears 1-2 and 3-4. I had this on my 2011 Silverado and it was considered normal but it happened rarely. Something about the driveline being loaded up when you let off the gas and then hit the gas right after causing this clunk was what I was told then. On this truck, it's happening too often for me to just work around it (I can tell when it'll clunk... the RPMs and transmission activity give it away and I just wait a bit before hitting the accelerator). To explain, if you let off the gas then go back on again (say when making an above average speed 90* turn or in stop and go traffic, the transmission - more likely the transfer case). So I'm waiting for when I can get the truck to the dealer but work is very busy right now (putting on a few events) so I have to be there vs. "work from home". This coming Friday is the appointment and believe me, GM corporate knows about this and will continue to get an earful from me - I'm so sick and tired of **** quality for $40K+ MSRP. GM should have engineered this out of the new model truck by now. Anyway, I don't want to have the system partially installed when I take it to the dealer - all I need is for the installation to be obvious and them blame my FM reception issues (and now this shifting issue) on the system. We all know that we drive around with seats out and door panels off during our builds... at least I do!

But anywho, I did some preparation work for the door speakers while I had some time today (aka, while my dog was preoccupied with his bone and not insisting on playing with his rope, haha). As you can see, I decided to join the Techflex and quick disconnect club. Seems to be all the rage on DIYMA although I do challenge the efficacy of Techflex as a protective sheathing - seems to be more cosmetic to me. Well I guess maybe it allows the wire to move without rubbing so much the actual wire sheathing. 

I digress... so these short wires will connect to the speaker wires coming into the door. Positive is marked with red shrink and negative with black, naturally. I found using the tip of a cheap soldering iron I bought for this purpose (vs. gunking up the tip on my nice one) to "cut" the Techflex back while it was wrapped around the speaker wire eliminated it from fraying and it sort of made it "stick" to the sheathing of the speaker wire so it held its place. I then used heat shrink with adhesive inside of it to lock it down and make it look schnazzy. I wish I had black heat shrink WITHOUT the lettering on it - kind of stands out, but whatever, not going to be seen.

Since I have like 1 billion feet of Techflex laying around, I'll at least be Techflexing the rest of the speaker wires where they go through and into doors (where possible), the dash area, and to consolidate multiple runs of wire headed for the same channel bank (aka, front left, front right, etc.). They'll split off to their respective speakers but those individual wires will get flexed from the split so everything is, yes, schnazzy.


----------



## casey

looks good so far. the Stage 4s are great looking speakers. Hopefully you can get the bugs worked out of your truck to keep on


----------



## Black Rain

Techflex all... wow. Those TS looking good. Are those the MBs or the MRs?


----------



## sirbOOm

They are the Stage 4 drivers, if that's what your asking.


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## sirbOOm

The bugs will hopefully work out. This is really a great ride. Stock stereo is tolerable even. I am a big fan of how freaking quiet it is inside. Onlya tad bit more road noise than my dad's Mercedes S430... and that is a very quiet car. 

Really wanting to make progress but if there's one thing I've learned at Sound sensations it is to do everything at once if you can. Running wiring twice, taking off panels more than once, etc is just a waste of time and sometimes damaging. I'm trying to deal with the tear down for wiring and cabin deadening once and be able to focus on the easy stuff last so I don't make mistakes from frustration or tiredness


----------



## JayinMI

sirbOOm said:


> (Not much has been done for system progress.)
> 
> Bringing this to the top to request opinions on the amplification. I'm heading strongly toward a 3-way active. Thus, I've been considering NOT using the ZED amplifiers, which I can use in this situation. Instead, considering using the following:
> - JL Audio XD800/8v2
> - JL Audio XD1000/1v2
> 
> I'd bridge the last 4-channels of the 8-channel for the midbasses in a 3-way.
> 
> We've these but never a purposeful high SQ type install. The sub amps of these that we've installed haven't been all that amazing, IMO, but it has always been a sub I don't care for (like a W3, for example). Been in one vehicle that was high SQ oriented and he said he was just starting tuning or something so I guess I didn't have an idea of potential. JL HD's have been in competition-winning vehicles, has anyone ever come across JL XD's in competition "placing" vehicles? Thoughts on this setup? Just brainstorming... trying to stay with just two amplifiers if I can.


I love W3's, but I agree, the XD sub amps usually haven't impressed me (same can be said for the Arc mini's). I recently used an XD 700/5 and XD 200/2 in a CTSV Wagon I did and was quite impressed. I don't know if they changed anything, or if they just worked really well in that car, but most of the other ones I've heard were "meh," at best. *NeilJ* used XD amps in his Mini Cooper and seemed pretty happy.

Jay


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## sirbOOm

Most of the XD amps are in v.2 now, I think. I know there was some improvements in the functionality of JL bass knobs being connected to them (i.e., adjustment across the range the knob spins vs. in chunks... at least in my experience). I don't know if they did anything more fundamental to make them sound better...


----------



## sirbOOm

Yay! I finally am getting the reverse harness I've mentioned above (P/N: 71-2107). This will ideally prevent me from having to cut/tap into wires, which I just don't like doing when something like this is supposed to be available. Nobody has it - not even my shop. Got in touch with Metra, they got me in touch with Installer.com. I'm paying a fortune for it but this will be cleaner and I can go in reverse much easier/cleaner when it comes time to sell.

Here's the URL to it - ideally they leave it up for others: REVERSE HARNESS FOR 2014 CHEVY/GMC 71-2107 METRA


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## EricB

Do you happen to know the part number to the other side of the harness ??? I.E what you would replace when adding an aftermarket head unit. Im gonna get both for mine. Much easier that way. 

Thanks, 

Eric


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## sirbOOm

I looked for that but so far I only found that PAC has it when you get their $150+ module that's necessary to entirely replace the OEM head unit, which requires dash modification, apparently - the screen is literally just a screen, not a "2DIN headunit", that connects to some modules. I know Kicker has a T-harness because that's what they include to plug in the ultra expensive aftermarket subwoofer package they offer. I asked them, they wouldn't sell it to me. But I just need the audio signal and won't need to retain stock speakers. Hopefully this works - done it before with reverse harnesses but we'll see. Contact Metra, maybe they can offer it. They actually respond to emails in like minutes... weird. If you want the entire PAC harness, visit PAC's website - it comes up when you put in the truck year make model. It's a new one that has everything in one module including steering wheel controls. If I didn't want to keep the stock head unit I would have just bought that. You'll need it to replace the head unit and retain vehicle functionality.


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## JayinMI

sirbOOm said:


> Really wanting to make progress but if there's one thing I've learned at Sound sensations it is to do everything at once if you can. Running wiring twice, taking off panels more than once, etc is just a waste of time and sometimes damaging.


Yeah, that's why (with my last major build) I started running wires for all my forseeable options and putting Deans (or Traxxas) connectors on the ends. If I ever decide to change something front or back, I don't have to re-run all my wires, I can just make new pigtails and go from there. 

My current car has 12ga KnuKonceptz OFC speaker wire run for a 3way setup up front, as well as high level audio (factory HU) and Optical. Anything I might do in this car should be able to work with that. lol

The new trucks took a while to grow on me, but I keep seeing a black "all-Terrain" edition GMC, and REALLY like it. 

Jay


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## CBS13WRX

I was wondering do you have the 4.3" or 8" Mylink screen? If you have a 4.3" screen could you swap out for the 8"?


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## sirbOOm

I have the 8". No idea if you can swap them. There's a YouTube video of some shop having put in a 2DIN in one of these trucks so I suppose that's possible and probably cheaper.


----------



## cwharris911

I have a 2014 Silverado I am looking to do some work in as well and am pretty new to car audio, can you expand on what you would be doing with the reverse harness? Don't you still have to move over the rest of the wires that are not speaker wires that go through it? Am I missing something?


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## sirbOOm

I'm told by a few sources that the harness for audio output is the green harness behind the screen and is a harness dedicated to audio signal only. If that is the case, this reverse harness should work for my intention of grabbing audio signal and bypassing stock speaker wiring without affecting it. If not, then I'll have to find a source for the other side of the harness to avoid tapping wires - otherwise I'll just tap wires. Eventually what I do will be in this thread.


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## sirbOOm

Okay - made templates for the front door speakers based off of the Metra adapters for this car. There are two template layers here, still stuck together with template tape because I was cutting out the speaker hole specific to my Pioneer driver. The bottom one is the base that would connect screw to the car door. As you can see I made a little mistake on the bottom right "tab" but that won't be in the final product (not that it matters). I'm probably going to router-copy the actual speaker from the truck for the base layer so that I can capture the pressure fit tab on the bottom better (had to cut it off the Metra adapter to get a flat surface, then realized I might have needed at least its shape to cover a potential hole in the car door). But, hey, it was slow at the shop and I decided to take advantage of a really nice router table setup and scrap material that was already in the garbage can. Plus this router has so much vacuum suction attached to it that there isn't a single spec of material that ends up "all over the damn place". 

The top layer (which would get stacked appropriately) is a final draft, I think. I like it.

FWIW: The Metra 6.5" and 6x9" adapters for this car are actually quite sturdy. The plastic composition still isn't dense and thick enough to my preference so that I can really torque down a screw without stripping it but at least they don't bend and flex like crazy like other Metra speaker adapters I've had to use before on GMs and other vehicles. This is due to their structural design, not the material. Conceivably, one could reinforce the Metra adapters as the backside is totally open but at that point, might as well just make your own baffles. You could even construct some sort of enclosure, come to think of it.


----------



## Lanson

Love your use of techflex, heatshrink and XT60 connectors.

Those are the best, IMO.


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## sirbOOm

fourthmeal said:


> Love your use of techflex, heatshrink and XT60 connectors.
> 
> Those are the best, IMO.


The XT60 connectors are nice but I wish the solder point on the male connector was deep like the female connector so that it'd hold the wire in place while I'm juggling to solder the wire in there.


----------



## Lanson

sirbOOm said:


> The XT60 connectors are nice but I wish the solder point on the male connector was deep like the female connector so that it'd hold the wire in place while I'm juggling to solder the wire in there.


The ones I bought had deep wire sockets on both sides. Got a close-up of the connector so I can see what you're saying? Here's mine:



























well damn, I thought I had a pic of them pre-install, but guess not...

I got them from eBay, in a big pack of like 20 pair for ~$20. I'm sure they aren't official original XT60's, but they are made well and they stick well. Also, they didn't readily melt down when soldering, which is a good sign. I was using two sets of 16 gauge paired up, from a 4 conductor in-wall wire (Monoprice.) I had to use "helping hands" so I didn't burn myself though, the conductivity was very high.


----------



## sirbOOm

Well the male has a solder point but no real HOLE for the wire to go into, the female solder points have a hole. It's not a big deal. The quality of mine are fine. I think the local RC/train store in my area might have these.


----------



## Fast Hot Rod

A friend of mine is an engineer that works for GM... they are looking up those harness plug part numbers for me. When I get it all figured out, I'll let you know.


----------



## sirbOOm

Had some time today so I decided to take my front passenger door panel off and get a lay of the land. Took a bunch of photos for those of you with a similar truck that I hope will help when you go to take your door panel off. But first, some observations:

Observations:
- You could put an 8" driver in here without much fuss. Pictured below is a Peerless SLS 8". Even mild craftiness will get you a baffle that can manage this, the only issue being the wide frame of 8" drivers and perhaps depth as there is a window guide you'll have to clear. Mounting low might solve that... I didn't experiment too much on this.
- You could put a 6.5" driver in low in the baffle and then a 2.5" / 3" (maybe 4") midrange above it if you wanted to do a midbass/midrange in the door and put the tweeter up in the dash. This will save you from doing any fabrication to a-pillars or futzing in a tweeter with a dash speaker, which would certainly require cutting (unless your tweeter is tiny). Maybe not the highest sound stage, though... something MS-8 worthy?
- The door, to my dismay, is not "sealed" with hard plastic, like my Ford Fiesta was. I thought it was. Maybe in the LTZ models? In my LT, it just has a soft sort of dense foam feeling weather seal with "tar" around the edges covering all the holes. Luckily the door metal is pretty flat and not goofy like my 2011 Silverado and there's no parts of the door card jutting into these holes so covering them will be a piece of cake.
- The stock 6x9 is not a separate speaker, like most GM speakers. The entire baffle frame is the speaker frame but, if you wanted, you could easily cut the stock speaker out, retain the stock speaker connector, and solder in the wires from the stock speaker connector in order to retain stock wiring. The only reason I'm not doing this is because I'd like to revert the truck back to stock (well, and I'm not using stock wiring, which appears to be 18AWG). 

The following is how I removed the door panel. By reading you understand you will be doing your own work at your own risk. I'm not responsible if you break something.

Step 1 - remove this beauty panel. I show the backside here but mine is a silver pattern - oooo aaaahhh. You need to remove FROM THE BOTTOM otherwise you might crack the clips along the top. I didn't do this and one of mine cracked. Luckily it was easily repaired with some super glue - wasn't a full break.

















Step 2 - remove the plastic panel behind your door handle. There's a little cut out you'll see where you can put in a tiny screw driver. That's where I started, but I used a panel tool so as not to mar the plastic. Popped right outa there.

















Step 3 - remove the plastic panel at the bottom of the hand cup area where you put your hand to close the door. I had to use a poker with a 45* angle on it to get this one out. Again there's a screwdriver area cutout but the poker popped it out better because I could push on the clip (in picture, on right) that's right under there without ever touching the plastic that would show. Boom.

















Step 4: Get your 7mm socket ready cuz you're gonna need 'er! Yes I am using the cheapest socket ever acquired by man. It was in my pile of sockets and I think it came with a $9.99 Walmart set I bought when I had trailer issues on a road trip. Haha. 









Step 5: Unscrew every 7mm screw you see. I didn't take photos of where each of these screws are but the above photos show most of them, then there are two on the bottom of the door card, and there's one recessed that you'll miss like me in the first photo above where I took off the beauty panel on the left... look for it, you'll need an extension. Please note that the screws behind the beauty panel are small, the screws from everywhere else around the door are medium and the screw that holds the speaker in is large. Do not mix them.

Step 6: unclip the door panel once you have removed every screw. Triple check. Don't try to remove it yet. I show a photo of the door panel for reference. I started from the speaker area first then worked my way around to the rear of the door - I always follow this route.










Step 7: once the door panel is loose (but not removed), you'll want to remove the plastic trim around the top of the door. Well, I don't know if you really need to but it was blocking me lifting the door panel off the top mount so I removed it. I started from the rear of the door and it sort of pressure fits in where the window meets the door without clips. Then you carefully pull it heading toward the front of the door. It's bendy and not brittle so it was easy to remove without risk. As you can see in the first photo, it is mashed in there under the door card so you have to finagle the door card out a bit to clear it from a pillion holding it in there and lift it up. Then on the speaker side of the door there is a clip that pops out then you do the same thing lifting the door card out a bit to clear a pillion and then it lifts totally out. Hopefully I find a way to put this back together easier because this process was kind of annoying.


























Step 8: Now remove the door panel. Since the top trim is gone, you can just lift the panel up (first ensuring all clips have been popped out and no screws are in there). Hold the panel in place though because you of course have to remove wires and the door handle thingy, as pictured below.

Door Handle Thingy. Easy to figure out on your own - much easier than 2011 Silverado. That white thing on the right which is half off picture is just a pressure clip that you press and poof it pops out of its mount like butter.









Then remove this german style clip. You have to press the ridged part where the black meets the gray handle first, then pull the handle out and the clip comes apart. You'll then need to pull out the pressure clippy thing that holes the wire in place as badly pictured below. You'll see it if you have any sense about you.

















Here's some visuals of the door and door card. 

















Make sure you keep the lock mechanism in its little home as pictured. Otherwise it'll go all over the place and probably break.









Bendy weather seal. Not hard plastic like I thought. Damnit!


























































Comparison of Pioneer speaker vs. stock. Pioneer is in a Metra adapter which I used to make my own baffle templates. Carving those out after I finish this post. I've said it before but the Metra baffles are actually really good for this vehicle. Hard and stiff and sized just right (that's what she said) 

























Gives you an idea of what the pioneer will look like in the door. Matches nicely... 


























This is how many screws came out. From left to right: medium, large, small.









The SLS 8" photo is attached.


----------



## sirbOOm

Fun router pictures. Oh, and this mess is what happens when you don't spring for the vacuum attachment 










Cutout for the Stage 4 drivers is 5.5"


















And I discovered that one of my rear seats that HAS NEVER F'ING BEEN SAT IN is torn at the seat cushion seam. Tell you what, my next car is going to be a f'ing Honda or something. Enough with the quality issues I have lately... UG!


----------



## sirbOOm

cwharris911 said:


> I have a 2014 Silverado I am looking to do some work in as well and am pretty new to car audio, can you expand on what you would be doing with the reverse harness? Don't you still have to move over the rest of the wires that are not speaker wires that go through it? Am I missing something?


Update on this. Yes, the harness is NOT just speaker wires. I can probably just relocate the stock speaker wire pins out of the stock harness and replace with the metra speaker wire pins. The cost of this harness is still cheaper than buying the pin tool that's like a million dollars to make new pins for the stock harness.


----------



## sirbOOm

Made new adapters out of IKEA cutting board. Problem with this stuff is that it's not real HDPE, maybe its LPDE or some other plastic. You can bend the 1/4" material but real 1/4" material of the same size will not bend. Also, it sort of retains a bit of the direction you bend it if it's warm. I suppose it'll work if you figure out how to adhere layers of 1/4" material but I'm going with real HDPE (at m'fing great expense... just will not put MDF in my door). 

These fit the front door 6x9 area of a 2014 GM truck like a glove. A few tries got them smooth and fitting like I wanted them (not that there is a need to be ultra perfect, this door doesn't need perfection like some).

On the plus the IKEA stuff makes a great template material for cheap. Though... the texture makes double stick tape not stick without constant pressure.

This is what I got: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00H3J5T6G/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A10RWI7IMZFD50

BTW, some may wonder why I don't just get plastic from Sound Sensations. At my shop we do use plastic in doors (never MDF...). I'd use our stuff (pictured in above photos) but I limit myself to scraps already in the garbage can if I'm lucky enough to catch some that I can work with and I don't want to be that guy using up new shop supplies that only get replenished every so often perhaps causing a real customer get delayed ... not that I've ever heard of there being a supply problem but, you know, I'm an installer first, the customers are the customers. Won't buy the last of an amp or speakers, either - same reason... I'd feel bad. Just doesn't seem "right". No I did not just get home from church... haha. And, frankly, I'm too impatient and not there enough to wait for the supplier to throw in an extra sheet for me. Honestly Sound Sensations is 1-hr from my house and not my full-time job.  Although, it wouldn't be a bad one.


----------



## sirbOOm

So I did the "Big 3" today. I still have to put a larger wire to the frame - making it a Big 4, really - but that I'll do tomorrow. The stock wire going to the frame is, I think, 8AWG. Frankly that's probably all that's necessary even with a system from what I can tell as the only thing grounding to the frame is lights and small electrics on this truck. The body is grounded to the engine block on the right side of the engine bay with one of those goofy grounding straps which I don't feel the need to double up because it matches the size of a 1/0 grounding strap I happen to have in my garage. So I figure that'll be fine, again especially since I'm running the ground to the battery. The OEM wire going to the engine block is, I think, 2 AWG. The stock power wiring was, I think, 2AWG as well. I say I think because it was as big as my 2AWG wire and didn't look like it was all shielding. Not bad! I suppose it could have been 4AWG. The wiring in my 2011 was for sure 4AWG but I don't have it to compare...

As I've whined about earlier and as you can sort of see in the photos, the '14 Silverado's electrical is not fun. So, against my personal preference, I added wires vs. totally replacing them. I tried to make it look as stock as possible. I'm still searching for a more aesthetic approach to connecting more wires (especially ground wires) to this 94R battery but I also wanted to retain, in stock form with its SAE post lug, the stock wiring - how is described below. Retaining stock form will allow me to fairly quickly remove everything in the event I need to. Just cut zip ties, pull, and return to OEM (not counting the power wires running to the back but those will be easily pulled, too, being that they are going to be run under the truck. Oh the joys of being still in warranty!

I'm not sure how necessary adding ground wires is going to be given I plan to run a ground straight back to the battery, but I figured it can't hurt. I used 2AWG Radaflex welding wire (almost as flexible, especially when it's hot out, as Stinger "car audio wire") for the added ground wire (vs. 1/0 as I'll be running a ground back) because it is the largest size that fits along with the stock wiring through the little electronic circle doo-dad that the ground wires go through. No freakin' idea what that does (it has an electrical connection going into it) but I figure it's there to detect voltage or some other electrical snafu's - I don't know. As I did with my 2011 Silverado, I figured it best to run wire through this vs. bypassing just in case, despite not knowing what it does. In the 2011 I replaced the stock wiring vs. added so I'm hoping this extra wire doesn't screw that thingy up.

Here's the "electrical doo-dad" I mentioned above. You'll see the three (vs. two) wires:









I grounded it to the front of the engine block in the same spot, actually, that my 2011 Silverado had its engine block ground. Perhaps they use this hole to drop the engine in? This took a pretty big bolt. You know that point when you've purchased so many bolts for stuff that were the wrong size that, later on, you end up having the right size bolt for something else later? Well, lucky me, I had this bugger sitting in my random bolt drawer!









This is the annoying "fused distribution block" atop the battery. There's an open slot fused at 125A that I'm told is used on diesel models that come with two batteries - that wire would run across the engine bay to the second battery. I have a second battery tray but I have no plans on putting in a second battery right now as I don't really listen to my stereo with the truck off - although, I do like drive-in movies... hmm. The bolt second to the right in the photo is where the alternator connects. The bolt farthest to the right has a wire (that I replaced with 1/0) that jumps to the battery post.









Nothing special here but you can see that I retained the stock boot that covers the alternator connection. You can't even tell I was there - that's always a goal for me.









New wire connected to the battery in an open post. It is not fused in-line - neither is the stock wire. That is the point of the fused distribution block atop the battery.









If you care, this is my crimp+solder work, lugs, and I show the 45* bend that I did to the terminal that connects to the ground on the battery so it'd fit nicely the way I chose to connect. The right terminal is a 3/8" hole. I actually cut that out and replaced it. I used the wrong lug when I took this photo - I replaced with a 5/16" lug. That was frustrating because I realized it after I was sweating my ass off hunched over the truck routing the wire. It's a pet peeve of mine - I have to use the right size lug. Luckily I also measured the wire wrong and had some extra slack! Haha. Fuuuuuuk.









And here we have my upgraded battery to distribution. I didn't have large enough shrink tube so I used those gaudy red boot covers for now. Didn't feel like going to the hardware store. I also oped to use these really huge and flat lugs I have because, to be honest, the 1/0 lugs that I ordered fit my 2AWG perfectly and wouldn't fit a 1/0 wire for the life of them. I was pissed. But I kind of like these, anyway. They're crimped and soldered, too (can't see that, though).









You'll also see in the photo above a KnuKnonceptz basic battery terminal. The design of these is great but they really do not like to hold to the battery post. I might find another solution but I really had to crank down on the nuts to get it to hold firm. The reason, I think, is that the post hole extends past the battery post which, in my experience, is a recipe for NOT locking down well to a battery post. The negative one, as you'll see in the next photo, was the worse. But thankfully I had the right size hex and I was able to lock it down... I hope!









And this is my solution to retaining stock wiring as-is while being able to add more. This is the negative of the KnuKnoceptz basic with one of there terminals. The terminal and the holes in each of these battery blocks is M8 1.25 threaded, FYI. This isn't the most beautiful approach but it's hidden pretty well in a dark back corner of the engine bay and really only one of two solutions I could figure. The other was to put that post in a MEGA fuse block (replacing one of the posts where the fuse would go to), jump the post to the next post in the fuse block, and then run a big wire to a marine style battery terminal. That would mean screwing in this contraption to my firewall which I decided to avoid as I could't figure out if anything important was behind where I would have had to screw in.

Now that this is done, and when my wire holders for running along the frame show up, I'll be running the power/ground back and then real progress can be made.

Oh... and today was the Atlanta meet. And I cancelled it because it was supposed to pour. It was a beautiful day and is just now, at 9:20PM, actually raining. G'dammit!


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## sirbOOm

Lucky me - my roof leaked again (for the 4th time since being replaced) and the contractor isn't being cooperative so I may have some unexpected expenses coming up... another roadblock. I have everything I need to complete the build but, damn... I have a destroyed ceiling and wall in my office, I can see it leaking through the roof board. UUUUGGG! I cannot get a f'ing break!


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## CaliIridium14

What's goin on sirBOOM! Very happy to have found this thread. Just bought a '14 sierra last friday and have been absolutely scouring the web trying to find a writeup on doing an amp/sub install. I've done a few amp/sub installs before but always on my older cars. Now that I've got a brand new truck I want everything done to the T. 

Thanks again for making this thread, happy to be here!


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## sirbOOm

Word.


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## CaliIridium14

You've got the crew cab right? I've got the double and man the space is TIGHT back there under the seats. Do you think I can get away with a pair of 10's, or are 8's gonna be my best bet?

I was leaning towards sundown: Sundown Audio SD-2 10" D4 500 Watt Dual 4 Ohm SD Series

have you decided on what subs you'll be using yet?


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## sirbOOm

I have a double cab. Space is very tight - a bit worse than my 2011 Extended Cab.

This is the build log so feel free to post questions on a new thread for your truck and I'll jump in there. In short, you can fit 10" with the right box... max of prolly .5 cubes per side. Could probably do up to 4 8" woofers if you fire them forward. 

But start a new thread if you want system design advice for your truck.


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## sirbOOm

Made a video how to remove the pins from the relevant green plug. Planning on swapping speaker wires from this metra plug into this (or vice versa as I sort of eluded to in the video) so that only the stock speaker wires are removed and tied off. Hopefully this makes sense (and hopefully this plan pans out!).


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## EricB

Great thread my man! Been watching eagerly as I am in the middle of my own 2014 crew cab install also. I will start my own thread with pics soon. Love your attention to detail so far!!! I was wondering if you have identified the closest color match carpet to your interior yet?? I am thinking Stinger Cinder is a better match than the black but don't have a piece to compare. Any thoughts??

Eric


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## Fast Hot Rod

As promised:

Delphi part number: 10847013

GM part number: 89047090

In searching for this connector, I found a cross reference to another manufacturer:

Yazaki part number: 7283-6453-60

Found a link to some specs for the Yazaki Part here.

Also found a PDF that has the plug and terminal information here: http://inventory.smdinc.com/search/pdf/7282-6453-60.pdf

Hope this helps.

Mark


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## sirbOOm

Some real progress made today in the "custom" department. Put holes into my a-pillars for placement of the tweeters. I'm coming up with some unique (I think, anyway) idea to pretty up the holes without doing bondo or fiberglass. For one I want to see if I can come up with something (the A-pillar isn't flat so I can't just flush mount the tweeter) and I'm also doing this because wrapping the right-side A-pillar will be a complete ***** as a result of it having a handle on it. Stay tuned for the plans - if it works. Waiting on a few options to arrive. 

In order to ensure the tweeter hole was drilled in the same spot on both pillars, I covered the area with painter's tape (I'd use the green, stickier version if I did it again). Then I found where I wanted to drill the hole on one of them and drilled a pilot hole. Then I took that painters tape off and transferred that to the other pillar and taped it down using regular Scotch tape, drilled a pilot hole. Then drilled my holes, which are 2". The cutout of the Pioneer tweeter is 1 7/8" for a flush mount. My plan requires a 2" cutout so hopefully that works out. Otherwise, I have backup pillars (which I want to keep on the side for a quick swap when going to the dealer for service to avoid attention to the system) or I just fiberglass to fix the fail and do "pods" if you will. But again, trying to do something else to see if the idea works. We'll see!


















Taped the template from above to this one upsidedown









I did 1,000 different reference point measurements and they line up same spot perfectly - photo doesn't really show that so well but they do.


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## sirbOOm

EricB said:


> Great thread my man! Been watching eagerly as I am in the middle of my own 2014 crew cab install also. I will start my own thread with pics soon. Love your attention to detail so far!!! I was wondering if you have identified the closest color match carpet to your interior yet?? I am thinking Stinger Cinder is a better match than the black but don't have a piece to compare. Any thoughts??
> 
> Eric


Color match for what, a sub box? 

I haven't even looked into that. Probably just use black - that's my interior.


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## EricB

I have the Ebony interior also..... however if you look closely or put something thats actually black against it, It really isnt as dark as black. I had heard that Cinder was a dead match but before I order a few yards, I figured I would ask around. 

Keep those pics coming!!!


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## sirbOOm

Good info! Yeah... my temporary sub box I mentioned above isn't a dead match but it's close enough that I really don't care... it'll work. If I were building a box I'd probably use bedliner like ProBox uses - I like that look. Or care a lot more about the carpet, at least.  I have to figure out how to stuff a 12" flat subwoofer somewhere in a double cab. If I had a crew cab, I'd be rollin' easy but I wanted the longer bed and not a $50K price tag.


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## sirbOOm

Video of me finalizing speaker (really tweeter) placement. This is one of two options that sound good. That is, this option has the tweeters essentially firing toward each other coming together at the center of the windshield under the rearview mirror. The other option was to have them firing about toward the lights in front sunglass holder on my roof about 4 - 5 inches back from where the windshield meets the ceiling headliner. I'm preferring the option depicted in the video - it'd end up being a lot more low profile which I like. Not particularly a huge fan of pods even for just tweeters in this truck - mockups make them stick out a little too much for me to "like". Other cars they blend better.


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## sirbOOm

I have been having no success with JPM Coachworks for my A-pillars. Andrew asked for pictures and then I have heard nothing. I'll call them today probably. Not a rush but... it's a rush (you know?). I emailed Mark out in NC to see what he thought about wrapping these and if he could do it. My thought is to just wrap the bottom and do a sort of stitched edge below the handle of the passenger side and in the same place on the driver side. That might keep costs down. Not as beautiful but I think it'd look okay enough.

Anywho... I used grill cloth and Weldwood contact cement (that stuff is amazing) to prepare the area for fiberglass. I've been so back and forth on how to finish these tweeter pods - use filler and paint, do a fiberglass approach, some other unique process. I decided to do the approach I did which will involve fiberglassing for shape.

I need to be careful around the area where the A-pillar trim meets the trim piece that covers the dash speakers, so that is why the shape is simply not reflective of stretched fabric over the edges of the A-pillar and that is why I am using the glue. I had to create a preliminary shape that leaves the stock thickness as close to the same as posssible.

In the photos you'll notice I taped up the entire pillar. This was a must when working with glue otherwise it'd end up on the pillar from my fingers. A must. Oh, and the Gorilla glue is what holds the actual tweeter mount in place. That plus the weldwood all around it - let's just say it'll be there for a long time (I hope).










































I'm doing the usual Labor Day weekend adventure so I won't get to more progress until next week. I do have the fiberglass and matte, if needed, in inventory as well as filler so the process hopefully only takes an evening after work. Hopefully.

Then back to the wrapping conundrum, haha.

Oh, if curious, you can use this Weldwood to secure even grill cloth vs. just a stretch over the edges of something if needed, but you'll want to use an ultra thin layer (which drys pretty quick. If you use too much, obviously it'll bleed through. I have some bleed through but I wasn't particularly looking for a presentable look and some of the bleed through was on purpose for extra glue in the area.


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## sirbOOm

Called JPM. I'm looking at probably $5-600 to wrap the pillars because of the handle. Nice.

I'm going to try my idea first. If it looks like poopy stix, then $600 is nothin'. I don't do ugly custom work... makes me very unhappy in my heart.


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## sirbOOm

I was anticipated this but hoping it wouldn't happen. The second fiberglass soaked through the grill cloth the glue gave up and the grill cloth came up, losing my shape. Either I need to fill the area with filler and shape it first or be less picky with the shape. Or find a glue that will not release when it gets wet with fiberglass... whatever that may be.


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## REGULARCAB

You know, that is a small enough area, I would just hit it with some duraglass and sand it to shape while its still green.


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## shutmdown

sirbOOm said:


> I was anticipated this but hoping it wouldn't happen. The second fiberglass soaked through the grill cloth the glue gave up and the grill cloth came up, losing my shape. Either I need to fill the area with filler and shape it first or be less picky with the shape. Or find a glue that will not release when it gets wet with fiberglass... whatever that may be.


CA glue tends to stay put. I'd say re do it, you worked so hard to make sure they're identical already...


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## sirbOOm

Making progress on my pillars. I didn't want to shape the shape with just filler but I decided I'd go for it because I would be able to create the exact shape I'm looking for - after hours of sanding, reapplying filler, sanding, sanding, sanding, sanding. Other than sanding, the downside of this approach is that, well, a lot of sanding causes wear on the surrounding parts, so I have had to be careful and creative and I'm most certainly committed now to a full wrap job vs. a partial job like I had been thinking about.

From my limited experience doing body work on some classic cars, I learned one thing that trumps all other lessons: it is what is under the filler that creates the strength. Still, I needed this pillar to remain in certain areas flexible so that I can get it back on without cracking the structure. So, I drilled numerous small holes in the areas I needed the pillar to be rigid and covered this area in a layer of fiberglass resin. Of course I sanded down the pillar plastic so that resin had something to grab onto. I don't have any pictures of this because I was in "figuring **** out mode" but the resin layer gave a good reliable base for the filler that'd be caked on top of it. 

To begin developing a shape, I started off using - unfortunately - Bondo brand fiberglass reinforced filler. It was what Autozone had and I don't have time to go on quests for anything better or wait for something to come in the mail right now. Sometimes I wish I did - it's long strand and was absolutely balls to work with. But it worked. It bonded just fine to the dried fiberglass resin under it and, after a ridiculous amount of sanding, I was able to develop this shape, which in concept I like.


















You can see that I was left with pits and pin holes galore but, given the composition of this stuff and the tight space I was working in, I expected to be up for a fight. I don't have pictures of the filler when first applied - frankly, I chose not to take any... it was embarrassing. I've never worked with fiberglass filler and, frankly, I don't see a reason to going forward in a space this tight. Never again.

The excessive sanding caused some shaving of the plastic tweeter pod in one spot on one of the pillars which won't end up a big deal. If I were painting these, I'd have to re-create the lip because the tweeter flushes up over it and without the lip there'd be a noticeable gap. 

Next I broke open the can of Rage Gold. I wonder if I should have just started with this stuff in the first place - it's worlds better to work with. But I figure I might have ended up doing more sanding in the end as it's not really geared toward creating a structure so much as a thicker filler might be. It'd probably have worked just fine, but I wanted to try the fiberglass stuff... oops.

After the Rage Gold, we're starting to see quality output here. I have one, probably two more thinner layers to apply and sand down to lock in the shape and finish but the fear that the fiberglass stuff left me shouldering has dwindled. You'll see I've made dots with a marker in areas I want to be making specific improvements to. These improvements are either obvious on the photo or not and thus in my head - essentially to round off a curve here or build up more structure there, etc. It looks like just a bunch of dots randomly placed but in real life you'd see what I outlined.


























Rage Gold is excellent. There are some pits/pin holes but this wasn't intended to be a final layer and the pits are actually the Rage filling in (but not all the way thanks to me missing in application) the moon surface that the fiberglass stuff left.

I'm going to take them into my shop tomorrow to get advice on what needs to be done next to make sure they can be covered without grave nightmarish pain and suffering or an overly stitched result, but I think the next layer or two will smooth it out nicely.


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## JayinMI

Can you post a pic of the rest of the tweeter mounting hardware? I'm trying to picture it in my head, but can't and I'm hoping that when you get them wrapped the tweeter will still fit in the cup. Would suck to go through all that work and pay someone $600 to wrap it just to have the tweeter not fit.

I've built a couple of tweeter/pillar dealy-do's where I used the tweeter cup that came with the set, and I've had them range from not fitting, to not being able to use the tweeter retention parts, and just had to use a pressure fit.

Jay


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## sirbOOm

Tweeter fits. I'll take a pic. Good advice.

I am worried about the wrapping work. They won't be able to put any material into the tweeter cup, just right up to the edge of the tweeter. I talked with JPM about this and they said it can be done. Doing so will make the tweeter look pretty flush vs. "on top of" the panel which will be cool. But I'm going to be depending on glue and a great stitched circle around the cup for longevity... that's why I'm not even going to try.


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## sirbOOm

I started taking off a few panels yesterday afternoon and by 10PM I had the roof covered in Stinger Roadkill with some foam. Shyte happens. I have tons of pix so if you're on a quest to do the same in a 2014-generation Silverado/Sierra, just ask me.

Because of how involved it would be to do so, I'm not posting here a how-to. In short, take out every panel and handle and thing holding up the headliner and down it falls. Beware of the wires glued to the underside of the headliner and the rear-most C-pillar panels that you need to remove very carefully otherwise the raised mounts will break off (don't ask me how I know).

Linked to below are videos of the before and after of the CLD on the roof. The video doesn't do the difference justice, unfortunately. I figured I'd go ahead and do this because in my 2011 Silverado I could get the headliner to vibrate against the roof metal if I had the sub really high plus if you go through a car wash it's like I'm being bombed - so much noise due to the roof panel being a big drum.

Before: https://flic.kr/p/oVUxnk
After: https://flic.kr/p/oVUU1p

Naked. You can just imagine how ringy and bangy this roof is. In a heavy rain it sounds like a thousand fingers tapping on it. Otherwise the vehicle is extremely quiet (quieter by far than my Mercedes I had before it... BY FAR).

















This is what the underside of the headliner looks like: 









Stinger Roadkill Expert (or whatever its called):







[/url]

Front foam; attached to headliner to make it easy to put where it'd be (hopefully) most useful. I did not foam the entire roof like I see on builds here sometimes. The truck already has foam in key places and I made a determination it wasn't necessary to do. I decided to use the stickiest spray glue that Autozone had - 3M Yellow. I had these foam rolls laying around so I used them. Otherwise I would have just gotten the sticky-backed ensolite from Raammat or somewhere. Spray glue is extra work.









Rear finished with foam (1/4"):









Oh, and hear's what I mean by the mounting stands/pylons/things breaking off on the C-pillar panels. They're sort of plasti-welded on there for a one-time use. I did not break them on the otherside of the car because I knew to stuff my fingers behind the panel where these were and push more evenly. The first panel came out in kind of a hailstorm - I pulled from the top rear by the window, literally got freaked out of my wits when my butt accidentally turned on my 90* air ratchet (just shocked me), this basically lead to a big yank on the panel and the whole thing popped off, breaking two of the stands/pylons. I have fixed them probably stronger than they were before but that was 30-min. of annoyance I didn't need all thanks to my tool mess and me, apparently, being scared of air tool sounds. I think I was more worried about the tool digging into the carpet or something -- yeah. 










I took the seats out, BTW. Have to really to do the headliner. Center console coming out in a few min after I post this. Going to run some speaker and signal wires now - hopefully I don't forget any. Stock wiring channels don't have much space so I'll need to be creative. Need to get at least my driver seat back in before Monday so I can get to work (probably with an airbag warning light... whatever). Taking the seats out of this is much easier than my 2011 Silverado. One wire connection for both seats, two bolts (not four). Nice. Very spacious in the truck with no seats.


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## sirbOOm

I decided to mock up the ZED Leviathan III and Minotaur II on the back wall before I do anything else. I'm a little nervous that these monsters will not fit behind the seats. As you can see in the photo below, I have about 1/4" inch to go before I reach how far out the window mechanism goes. Boy I wish I didn't get a truck with the rear window that opens - I never use it and it's taking up precious space! I guess the only way to find out if they fit is to make an amp board, which I'm going to have to do anyway, mount them, and put the seats in to see what happens. If they don't fit, I'll have to get different amps - maybe the JL XD series 8 channel and a mono or something else. I figure if Mosconi amps can fit back there, hopefully the ZEDs will... I think they're about the same height give or take.





































And here's the rear floor. You can see that the carpet is actually a front and back carpet in this year, which is AWESOME. The 2011 Silverado I had it was one piece of carpet and a PITA to deal with as a result.










This floor is why I do not recommend an extended cab to anyone who wants to do a simple audio system. It's not flat and, thus, a complete PITA to make a box for, buy a good pre-fab box for, and/or mount amps under. Sucks.


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## optimaprime

This is awesome awesome build. My brother I law picked up a new 2014 gmc crew cab with the new touch screen and I have driving it pulling trailer in the wind and you could hear a frog fart on the inside ! It was so quiet at 72 mph out here in panhandle of Oklahoma !


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## sirbOOm

Yes, in taking apart the truck I see a lot of REAL sound blocking material (i.e., MLV-type stuff), tons of that carpet padding stuff, and even 3M thinsulate-type material. They have even expandy foamed voids in certain areas, which I was surprised to see. The weakness is the C-pillar, IMO. I hear noise coming from the back sometimes and that might be why. After I do the doors, it'll be a very quiet ride, I think. I took a door off and there's not much for deadening/blocking which surprised me given how quiet the car is. Most road noise that you actually hear IME comes from the firewall area and footwell area, which they have blocked off well.


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## optimaprime

I want one super bad with that factory touch screen I really like it.


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## sirbOOm

Sell you mine for $40K


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## sirbOOm

Alright - starting to make progress in the actual AUDIO department. I put Stinger Roadkill on the floor pretty much everywhere that wouldn't be exposed from underneath the carpet (carpet has some spots where you see the floor/paint around seat mounts and what not) which also equates to places where the metal rang when tapped. I've been driving around without carpet and some panels off and only a driver's seat right now. Interesting hearing the transmission work - most of that sound is blocked off by the carpet padding. Thing sounds like its always doing something but what do I know.

This is what the stock stereo connections look like behind the screen:









My plan to use the reverse wiring harness worked perfectly. I used Speedwire which I soldered to the outputs from the reverse wiring harness. From the stock green plug I stole the + and - for the radio and put those into the reverse harness (obviously I had to take out the wires that were there already). The stock green plug is tied off and once I get some sticky foam I'll wrap it up so it doesn't get a chance to vibrate against anything, although it's tied off and hovering not touching anything but always good to play it safe. Anyway, really, really happy with the result. Zero cut or tapped wires. Stereo does play my test speakers through the 9-wire speaker wires no problem.

Getting prepped for soldering. Heat shrink is my friend.









All soldered up. Managed to get all the right color wires connected too! Super tough.









You can see the setup here with the stock plug tied off. The wire taped wire running in the middle left to right is the 9-wire not covered by the 9-wire's sheathing.









9-wire runs behind the radio cluster and then behind the glove boxes, which I removed. 

























All back together, less the silver trim panel but that just snapifies in there.









I will finish up running this when I run the speaker wires as they'll share a similar path so no reason to waste zip ties tying it down now. Weekend is over so maybe some evening work otherwise next weekend I'll be back at it.


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## jebcamaro

Nice truck!

I'm enjoying your build thread. I recently picked up a 2015 GMC Sierra SLT CrewCab 2500HD Duramax with console and factory Bose. I must say, the Bose system in my new truck is a far cry from the Bose in my 2010. I have been quite impressed with it overall. However, as good as it sounds, for a factory premium system, it still does not stimulate me. I have found absolutely nothing in regards to upgrading the Bose systems as of yet. I wait patiently for someone else to figure it all out before I begin to start replacing the Bose setup.

I noticed you played around with different size speakers in the doors, but have you recorded an actual depth that would be tolerable within the door cards?


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## sirbOOm

Because you're speaker adapter/baffle is going to come out of the door metal about 2.5" plus you have like 3" give or take in dept behind the metal depending on magnet size, I highly doubt you'll be having a problem with mounting depth.

I'd be more concerned about your box/subwoofer setup and where you'll be putting your amplifiers. That's challenging in these trucks, especially if you get an extended/dbl cab.


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## sinnerz

Your build is looking great sirb00m! hoping to get started on my wiring this week once my box is finished and wrapped. I noticed you mentioned your concerns about amp depth and clearance against the back seat. I finished my amp rack up this weekend so you might find this helpful, my thread is here: 

Aftermarket audio, subs, amps, speakers, w/ factory HU - Page 2 - 2014/2015 Silverado & Sierra Accessories & Modifications - GM-Trucks.com


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## sirbOOm

Thanks for the link. That amp rack looks great. Unfortunately I don't have access to a welder so metal work is essentially not an option. I suppose my neighbor might have a welder but he's a tool. I'm probably going to go with a 1/4 or .5 mdf board covered in a layer or two of fiberglass for strength and sealing, then carpeted. Not sure. I want the lightest option possible so I'll probably liquid nail the board straight to the wall.


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## jebcamaro

sirbOOm said:


> Because you're speaker adapter/baffle is going to come out of the door metal about 2.5" plus you have like 3" give or take in dept behind the metal depending on magnet size, I highly doubt you'll be having a problem with mounting depth.
> 
> I'd be more concerned about your box/subwoofer setup and where you'll be putting your amplifiers. That's challenging in these trucks, especially if you get an extended/dbl cab.


Are you saying there's about 5.5" inches of depth in the front doors for mounting drivers? If so, then I'm golden with my Exodus Anarchy's!



sirbOOm said:


> Thanks for the link. That amp rack looks great. Unfortunately I don't have access to a welder so metal work is essentially not an option. I suppose my neighbor might have a welder but he's a tool. I'm probably going to go with a 1/4 or .5 mdf board covered in a layer or two of fiberglass for strength and sealing, then carpeted. Not sure. I want the lightest option possible so I'll probably liquid nail the board straight to the wall.


If you need an amp bracket welded up, I'll fab one up for you and make it two-piece so you can bolt it together in the center. That way it will keep costs down low for shipping. Just send me the measurements, schematic and what you'd want it made from and I'll weld it up free of charge, minus material costs.

I manufacture these for a living, so I have a fab shop


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## sirbOOm

I managed to get the wires into the right spots for the front passenger side last night. Getting the wire through the door grommet was a royal *****. I opted to drill out the door wiring connector vs. using the existing grommet on the frame side and drilling a hole into the door (and then using the wiring tubes noted earlier in this thread). This worked out fine in the end but I just hate doing that from an anxiety level perspective (what if I screw something up!?) and from a time perspective. Plus drilling these things out sort of screws with the clamping mechanism for the pins, same as VWs. So, I chose to drill where there weren't "other wires" nearby. Hopefully I can do the same on the other side as getting a thick sheathed 14AWG Stinger wire through this thing wasn't fun. In addition to drilling, I used a long attachment to my soldering iron to (1) get rid of plastic in the way that the drill bit wouldn't get and (2) to essentially "weld" everything around the area back together sort of repairing damage in a way. It's solid and, once back together, everything in the door works.

On the interior plug (the one you have to pull out from inside of the car to get to), there was a wire I didn't see or expect in comparison to the door-side plug - it doesn't match up with any wire going into my door; it dead ends. I drilled the door-side one first, then realized this pin was there on the interior-side plug... fudge. Have to drill out the same pin areas to get the wire through, can't have any bends or the plugs won't clamp back together (especially with 14AWG wire). Anyway, the longest part of this was figuring out how to get that m'fing pin out of there (I just decided it would "hurt less" to move it to another open slot figuring better to retain it for whatever it might have been intended for that I didn't get on the options list). Basically, I created a "tool" with a small key ring. Straightened them out, stuck them all over the place until I was lucky enough to catch whatever was holding the wire in... 2 hours later literally. I had never removed a wire from one of these before and it just seemed to not want to come out... at all. Couldn't find a video. Couldn't find a thread. Too late to call up the shop. Damn. Well, I got it out, though. Hopefully I can move wires (if needed) faster on the driver's side.

Wiring runs cut to length. I just cut ~22' per after measuring a few examples with a tape measure and adding some extra for "just in case". I'm running the wires on both sides of the car so I can hide the wires in stock wiring channels (mostly), thus the lengths can be similar vs. the driver/passenger side being much longer to cross the floor. Again, 14AWG Stinger wire (chosen because it's black).









I decided to techflex wires going through the dash area but not everywhere in the car. The techflex makes the wires to non-bendy which actually works nicely in the dash where I can't always get behind there to ensure it's zip tied to something. I have it locked up against existing wires pretty damn good though. Pictures I took of that didn't turn out so hot - iPhone photo...


















And the door connector fun. Getting the interior side one out and into the open was a skin scrapping experience but I got it. Had to pull out some pressure clip wire holder-uppers but those went back in no problem with the help of my long pliers. 










This is the wire finally through the door-side connector. I guess I didn't take a picture of the other side... I was getting pretty tired at that point as I had been f'ing with that pin for hours and so forth. Gotta make sure, unlike this photo, that the wire goes under that purple handle so it can close and clamp the plug down. This is just when I first got it through. Notice how large the 14AWG wire is relative to the surrounding wires. Ug.










Got the speaker wire through the tube. That was pretty easy actually. Just gotta be conscious when doing this stuff that you can't be yanking too much on the wiring pins. They're strong but they can still pop or the wire can break... didn't happen for me but boy was I worried a few times when I caught myself not staying conscious of that. 









Here's the wire back looking stock-a-licious









The theme of speaker wiring we're going to notice here is that I am stacking htese very square wires on top of each other for their run down the car. This is to ensure I can control how much space that take up. Here's an example. This is also how they look when sheathed in techflex, if you care to know.









As you can see, lots of zip ties probably every 4" or so, even less at times when stock wiring zip locations vs. new wire zip ties happy to meet up. THis is why I stacked the wires. If they were just all over, it wouldn't have fit in this very tight, not very deep wiring channel. I just got everything to fit. Just. The blue 9-wire is about the same size as a 4AWG wire, for reference. The three speaker wires about another 4AWG wire or so. So I figure you can run through two runs of 4AWG here if you're crafty but NOT anything larger (well, maybe a 2AWG) as then they get too tall.


















And as you can see I was able to get the cover for the wiring channel back on... everyone is now protected, mingling, and having a good time. You can also see the Stinger Roadkill on the floor here. Made the mistake of not covering the seems/joints of the CLD with aluminum tape and then sitting there with my hot ass... got some of the rubber all melty and wonky all over my booty and in some areas on the painted floor but that'll clean and cover up once I get the tape this evening and take care of that.










These are all just photos showing things. Final wiring isn't done but is very tight so far.


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## sirbOOm

> If you need an amp bracket welded up, I'll fab one up for you and make it two-piece so you can bolt it together in the center. That way it will keep costs down low for shipping. Just send me the measurements, schematic and what you'd want it made from and I'll weld it up free of charge, minus material costs.
> 
> I manufacture these for a living, so I have a fab shop


Sweet! But can I get one of those Batmobile things, instead?

JK... What was material cost for you? Where did you get that glue?

I'll have to get to a point where I can measure that space out and then my amps and where they'd have to be relative to the seat back... wow... that sounds like no fun at all. Haha.


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## sinnerz

sirbOOm said:


> Thanks for the link. That amp rack looks great. Unfortunately I don't have access to a welder so metal work is essentially not an option. I suppose my neighbor might have a welder but he's a tool. I'm probably going to go with a 1/4 or .5 mdf board covered in a layer or two of fiberglass for strength and sealing, then carpeted. Not sure. I want the lightest option possible so I'll probably liquid nail the board straight to the wall.


After getting mine done, there was basically no purpose for using the metal..the only bonus there is the mdf sits 1/2 inch away from the wall so fasteners for my processor and wire management don't protrude through. Since I used solid square stock, I couldn't use self tappers to mount the mdf to the metal anyway, so I just ended up panel bonding the mdf to the steel square stock. If I had to do this all this all over again, I would just panel bond a 3/4 inch piece of mdf right to the cab wall. Might want to test the strength of liquid nails though...all the weight from the amps adds up as you know. MIght hold now, but I doubt it will be long term. You can buy this panel bond at any auto parts store that sells auto body material. This is what you want, the only really expensive part is the automix gun, but something tells me you will have use for it in the future! 

3M 08115 Panel Bonding Adhesive

The other cool thing is the adhesive can sit on the shelf, the tips go bad but you get 2 with each adhesive container. Also, it works best if the metal is bare, so a little buzz with the die-grinder and your good to go. 

Keep up the good work, sir! I might be pm'ing about some wiring questions I may have if thats cool! Had a straight up catastrophy with the factory blose amp this weekend, somehow over a gallon of water made it into the cab and filled it up with water where I relocated it over one of rear cab wall vents. Been trying to find out how the water got in, total headache!!


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## sirbOOm

Yeah, to be honest I like the idea of a wood board better just because I can adjust the location of things, if need be. Now that I see what you're talking about, yeah, we use that 3M stuff at Sound Sensations, actually - same gun, same epoxy, same applicators... so I can do it there. Once that stuff dries... man...

Feel free to PM me wiring questions.

As for your Bose amp, either your rear light is leaking (not uncommon) or you got water through your vent (go through any large pools of water?). No other way it could get in around that area.


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## jebcamaro

sirbOOm said:


> Sweet! But can I get one of those Batmobile things, instead?
> 
> JK... What was material cost for you? Where did you get that glue?
> 
> I'll have to get to a point where I can measure that space out and then my amps and where they'd have to be relative to the seat back... wow... that sounds like no fun at all. Haha.


Ha! Sure, I can work you up a special price for a fellow DIYer

It is actually a mower to cut grass on really steep slopes.

I wouldn't use any form of glue to attach a piece of wood permanently to your back wall. I would make a steel bracket that mounts permanently using the 3M panel bonding adhesive and then making it so a piece of wood could attach to the bracket. That way you can lay things out on the board outside the vehicle and then just attach it to the bracket when mounted. At a later date you decide to make changes, then you can just make a new piece of wood to fit your new configuration.


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## sirbOOm

Put the RF360.3 controller/remote/blue light special beacon in its new home. It's in a closing storage bin thing underneath the radio/climate stack - very stealthy yet accessible and I can close it to block out the bright-ass-fuuuuu blue lights on the 360's remote controller. Used rubber grommets where I passed through drilled out holes in plastic. The USB cable that connects to the laptop is also run with the remote's cable but comes out of the glove box with enough length to reach my laptop sitting atop the center console (not pictured yet).

Back of storage bin:









Back of plastic wire goes through behind storage bin (compelling footage, I know!):









Here's what it looks like. Not double stick taped... its screwed down and very solid. No pinching of wires (theres some space in-between the back of the bin and the plastic behind it), and it's level and centered where I want it to be so great success.


















I wired the 360.3's wiring separately (along many of the same paths but with discrete zip ties, etc.) because of the greater likelihood that I'll change processors vs. speaker wiring in the future... I just want the option to rip out the 360.3 quickly without ruining everything else in the process... thinking ahead. 

Let's just hope all this crap works because diagnosing wiring at this point will suck the biggest pair of bollix this side of the galaxy.


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## Inthuwind

Great thread and info!


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## cwharris911

I am going to be putting my(not as impressive) system in my 2014 crew cab in the next month or so. 


Do you have the pin outs for the reverse wiring harness? I am sure it wouldn't be too hard to figure out since they stock wires are all color coded to their door, but knowing what I am getting into ahead of time would be great. It looks to be 8 wires total from the speed wire, are you also grabbing your remote wire from the harness with the 9th wire or are you getting that somewhere else and running it separately? Also are there already wires coming out of the reverse wiring harness when you get it or do I need to get the pins separately, and if so what gauge delphi pens are they?


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## sirbOOm

No I dont. I couldn't find aux switched behind the radio. For now I tapped the general aux ign fuse on the driver side fuse panel. That only gets power when the ign is set to on not with just one key turn click to access like I prefer. I'll find it when I get to a pin schematic someday so I ran the wire but I can use speaker signal turn on so no bigs

There is such a wire in the headliner under the sunglass holder that I use for my dash cam. Didn't want to tap that but it's an easy option. Don't ask me which wire... search dash cam install for 2014 silverado it'll be around on Google.


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## sirbOOm

Well to be honest guys, it's looking like I won't be able to use the ZED amps. The Leviathan III is just too wide. Because I have a sliding rear window, the motor for it takes up the space where I'd put my power distribution and RF 360.3 - similar to the other SIlverado builds on this forum (they didn't seem to have the rear sliding window. I didn't want that feature but it was already on the truck. So basically a get a maximum of 41" in width. That would normally be enough but I have to make room for a center seatbelt mount. I'd just take that seatbelt out but I cannot get it fully removed... they installed it probably BEFORE they installed the rear window. I can get everything out except the buckle. Don't need the center seatbelt... have yet to have ANYONE sit in the rear center seat and only have had 2 people in the back once before. So... I'll see about taking apart the buckle to make it thinner to get it out of where it is bogging up... but it's not looking good.

I would just put the 360.3 under the passenger seat where I had it in my 2011 Silverado but there isn't enough room... unless I cut carpet. I could potentially put it under the carpet... but I'm going to have to ask the RF rep if they need a lot of airflow or not. I'm assuming at least some so maybe cut vents? Honestly I'd rather not cut carpet but we'll see.

So now I'm mocking up (cardboard cutouts) other amplifiers I'd consider. Crapola... I held onto these ZEDs for so long hoping to use them.


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## REGULARCAB

And here I thought you extended cab buttholes had all the luck...


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## sirbOOm

We do... this owner just subjected himself to a f'ing window motor that I promise will break right when the warranty ends.


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## sirbOOm

Spoke too soon. A different configuration, moving some electronic bit on my back wall (if I want decide to use my Streetwires/Audison + & - distibution block thing, and some very, very crafty wire management and I think I'll be able to pull it off. Just wish ZED put their terminals all on one side on the Minotaur - then it'd be cake (relatively). I'll get at it Sunday. Might run the power wire along the frame first which is the only thing holding me back from doing tests (no power... well that and I have to install the aftermarket speakers but that's trivial.

Now I'm worried about the rear of my seat getting damaged by the "sharpish" corners of the ZED amp. Might tape those over - won't seem 'em anyway. 

Oh, and my mockups found that the following amps fit with my big distribution block and the 360:

JL XD 800/8 + 600/1
Alpine PDXV9 + Alpine PDX-F4

Those are the only ones I mocked. This would mean though that the Arc Audio XDi series amps would work, too.

Lesson learned here is to not use ZED amps on the back wall of a pickup truck and use amps where all connections are on one side - SOOOOOOOO much easier to deal with in this situation (or any).


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## sirbOOm

I forgot to mention that I put Stinger Roadkill Carpet Pad under my carpet (where I could fit it) before I put the carpet back in. Forgot I had the stuff in the basement - boy does it stink for a while! The vehicle is noticeably quieter around the transmission hump area and I hear less general road noise. Very impressive!. I have probably one picture of this but it was pretty late at night when I was doing this so I missed the pix. I'll add the picture when I get my memory card into this computer if I do have one.

In other news, power wiring has been run - one + and - 1/0 from the battery to the back via the frame up into the cab. I'll post the pictures this evening as well as what I used to get the job done. I think it worked out really well and running these two wires is a huge milestone... now I can run tests and maybe have me a nice mocked up system to listen to while I'm getting toward the promise land. No music is killing me.

Stilling working on the amp mounting scenario. I got pissed about the lack of space and that bloody sliding window over the weekend so decided to step back from that stage of things. I'll come back to it this ewek.k

As well, I think over the course of this week I'll install the midranges and not-yet-finished a-pillars/tweeters along with the mids in the doors and do some test listens. Looking forward to figuring out a way to NOT amplify to oblivion the bongs and chimes. Hopefully, like in my 2011 Silverado when I used high-level, I will not have an issue.

Progress... progress...

I'll probably do a shortened build log as this has become somewhat of a journal... haha.


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## Darkrider

sirbOOm said:


> I forgot to mention that I put Stinger Roadkill Carpet Pad under my carpet (where I could fit it) before I put the carpet back in. Forgot I had the stuff in the basement - boy does it stink for a while! The vehicle is noticeably quieter around the transmission hump area and I hear less general road noise. Very impressive!. I have probably one picture of this but it was pretty late at night when I was doing this so I missed the pix. I'll add the picture when I get my memory card into this computer if I do have one.
> 
> In other news, power wiring has been run - one + and - 1/0 from the battery to the back via the frame up into the cab. I'll post the pictures this evening as well as what I used to get the job done. I think it worked out really well and running these two wires is a huge milestone... now I can run tests and maybe have me a nice mocked up system to listen to while I'm getting toward the promise land. No music is killing me.
> 
> Stilling working on the amp mounting scenario. I got pissed about the lack of space and that bloody sliding window over the weekend so decided to step back from that stage of things. I'll come back to it this ewek.k
> 
> As well, I think over the course of this week I'll install the midranges and not-yet-finished a-pillars/tweeters along with the mids in the doors and do some test listens. Looking forward to figuring out a way to NOT amplify to oblivion the bongs and chimes. Hopefully, like in my 2011 Silverado when I used high-level, I will not have an issue.
> 
> Progress... progress...
> 
> I'll probably do a shortened build log as this has become somewhat of a journal... haha.


Eh, I like the journal.

I had the issue with the chime amplification on my Camaro at first. Turns out, in the Camaro at least, that the chime volume was tied to the amp gain (input sensitivity). If I left the gain at minimum, the chimes were normal volume. If I adjusted the gains up 1/4, the chimes would be pretty loud. Any higher than 1/4 was obscene. That was all before I decided to replace the stock head unit though.

There was a guy on the Camaro forums that sent his stock head in to Panasonic (manufacturer of the stock Camaro head) and had them flatten the stock EQ and remove or reduce the chimes. He had the stock audio system though, not the "upgraded" Boston Audio system. He was also sponsored by JBL, so no telling what the head unit adjustments cost.

I'm looking forward to getting a demo at the GTG at Bertholomey's on Nov. 8th.


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## sirbOOm

Yes, I plan on being there with my system running if not done so that, hopefully, someone volunteers to help me tune the m'fer. I likely won't have my A-pillars covered by then but whatever... that's gonna be maybe December or January or maybe February due to budget constraints unless I learn how to stitch and weave myself from YouTube... haha.


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## cwharris911

How are you going to deal with the door dings? Won't they be amplified through this setup since you are running all the speakers through amps?


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## sirbOOm

Don't know yet. Wasn't a problem in my 2011 but may be here... I'd love to intercept the ding signal and have the volume control adjusted so I can actually reduce the volume vs. going from (stock speakers) loud to loud as fuuuuuuk. Must have made this truck with almost deaf construction jack hammer operators in mind or something. We'll see.


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## cwharris911

Something I found is that there is a volume control in the settings for it, just not sure if it will be enough. Just so you can check it out the setting is in settings->vehicle->comfort and convenience->chime volume.


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## sirbOOm

That's what I mean... even all the way down the bongs are too loud. Turn that up and they'll deafen you. MyLink is open source so putting it out there to have that adjusted so you can turn them down much lower would be the best approach. Usually NOT turning up your gain beyond 1/4 is fine and won't make bongs too loud.


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## sirbOOm

Lady and gentlemen... we have ZED!

ZED Leviathan III









ZED Minotaur II









Wired them up and got the "everything's okay" green light from the ZEDs.

Weirdly, Steve/ZED decided to use hex nuts on the Leviathan that require both metric and SAE hex wrenches and the remote turn-on lead on the Leviathan is a teeny hex where as on the Minotaur it's the same size hex as the speaker leads. That was annoying...

Did a hack up wire job to just the Stage 4 midranges (easiest to get to right now) to do a noise test... no noise. Excellent. I've wired in my little JBL GTO-504EZ right now crossing the midranges above 250Hz (as high as the JBL will go) and turning up the gain does notably increase the door open chime/bong volume but that's the way it's going to have to be unless I pull signal from just the rear speakers and then do some sort of under-dash speaker for the chimes and bluetooth (annoying). Keeping the gain down keeps the chime loudness down. That's about it. Now, I will obviously have my RF 360.3 in line and I have found having a processor or higher-end LOC (like an Audio Control) in-line converting high-level signal to low level (or in the case of the processor... the processed signal) helps mitigate this. Essentially keeping the radio volume down for the base signal and then using instead a secondary volume control (like the RF 360.3's controller) keeps bongs down. But, not always (or in some instances I'm doing it wrong). Anyway... all I have to do to keep bongs down is turn the radio volume down. The turn signal bong isn't actually bad... weirdly it didn't get any louder... it was almost inaudible - that has me a bit worried, actually. I'd love to know why that was the case...


----------



## sirbOOm

Here are the photos of the 1/0 Radaflex welding wire + and - going from the battery along the passenger side outside frame (opposite the exhaust) and up into the cab via an area I drilled out and prettied up with a little plastic panel through Streetwires firewall grommets. This area on the cab wall was reinforced after drilling with washers that were JB Welded to the outside metal (otherwise the metal was a little too bendy after the 1" holes were drilled for my taste. I'll get closer pictures of the panel and so forth when all is done but the point of this post is just to show the wire run, really.

Oh, worth noting that I primered, painted, then siliconed, and then undercoated the outside where these holes were drilled and on the inside there's the beauty panel and the holes were primered painted under that and, when I get to it, the surround of the beauty panel will be siliconed with black silicone (not that it's needed). So... if this area rusts... all I can say is I've done my best. I'd be less surprised if somewhere else on the truck rusts first after all the protection I gave it. So I'm not worried.

Oh, and to drill the holes I used this m'fing expensive step bit: Amazon.com: Irwin 10235 Unibit5 1/4-Inch to 1-3/8-Inch 1/2-Inch Shank Step Drill Bit: Home Improvement. If you'd like to rent it from me, I'll just charge what I paid for a deposit until you send it back. They're even more expensive at the hardware store and, frankly, you'll never use it again. Haha. I used silicone spray to lubricate the drilling and keep things cool. You must do this otherwise the sheet metal will bend/warp or you'll fudge up the bit. Silicone spray, drilling lubricant... all same difference.

Oh... and where I put the wires is great for just one wire. This is probably the only location in a double cab to use, IMO, but two wires is kind of a pain as I'll have to work them around the seat mount but they clear just fine. Lots of quadruple checking made sure of that! Never drill a hole into your car if you aren't certain you won't regret it later. And with that said, if you're going to use the same 1/0 gauge Streetwires-brand firewall grommets drill a 1" hole. Nothing larger! I've made this mistake before (i.e., drilling a hole the size of the wrong side of the grommet) and it is not fun to fix. In the event that you do need to fix it, doing what I did with 1" ID washers JB Welded to the metal will solve that issue. I didn't make a mistake this time but let's just say that's how I've mitigated said mistake once before (not in a customer's vehicle... but, well, my dad's a long time ago). But knowing how to mitigate it is what gave me the idea to strengthen the panel with the washers. Probably not necessary but I figured while I was neglecting my dog and messy house I'd make things strong. 

Anyway...

Here's the wires coming into the truck and my "beauty panel". It's made of 1/8" ABS plastic I got on clearance from Parts Express. If you bend the sheet of it back and forth really fast it makes a funny sound... my dog freaks out. The opposite side from what you see is a rough texture I chose to put on the backside to give the (yes, I know... overkill) JB Weld something to latch onto. The panel isn't going anywhere. The holes in it are drilled out to the max size the above drill bit would go and then I had to use a dremel drum sander to open it up more so that the entire firewall grommet would fit into it and I could still turn the thing clamp it around the wire. The grommet needs to seat against the cab wall, NOT the beauty panel... it doesn't have the depth for that. It looks better in-person and, regardless, you'll never see it as this is going to be behind the seats and sound deadening. But... might as well make things as profesh as can be. Oh, I used a manilla folder to create the shape, cut that out with a razor, traced it onto the plastic, then cut the plastic with a jig saw with a fine teeny blade atop some 1/4" MDF for stability. Then used my trust Makita sander thing to fix the imperfections and round off the edges and corners. Looks really good - almost router perfect (but I didn't have a hard template so I didn't use the router...). I can trace this for folks if you want it.

Oh, I should say, when you do this... route from the battery - get everything situated up in the engine bay or leave yourself slack there, THEN go to the back. Going the opposite way will lead to potential "oh ****" moments when you realize you don't have enough power wire slack inside the vehicle. I always run from the battery to the back. Only makes sense to go the other way if your amp or distribution block is already mounted where it'll be.










Here's an example of the wire run along the frame. You'll see some areas I touched up with the GM undercoating stuff that is still wet in the photos. I covered each screw with black silicone before seating it permanently into its drilled out hole. I drilled out the holes using a small bit. Then I took a .5" #10 self tapper with a bolt head to bore out the hole to the right size. Then I mounted up the wire holder zip tie thing (see this link) with a 1.5" #10 stainless screw with a bolt head. Then I painted over each screw so they'd be black vs. being ugly and obvious. I have a TON of these zip tie things left if anyone needs them. I had to buy bulk to get them unfortunately. I think I used about 10-12 of them every 4-5" or so along the upper part of the frame. 










More photos of this. You're seeing install in-process photos so the wire looks wonky sometimes. You'll see in this one how I went over the cab mounts. GM does the exact same thing on the driver side with the harness wiring. You'll also see I took the opportunity to do touchups on the fame coating since I was under there. That's why a lot of spots are darker black. The coating is a waxy substance - slippery so the drill bit slipped once or twice. That's why you see the coating sprayed where the mounts are... no big deal. It dries even and sort of melds with the rest of the waxy stuff after a while - barely noticeable. Apparently this waxy stuff is "self-healing" and that's why they use it. Just paint the f'ing frame, GM... damn.


















This one is the wires before they head up into the engine bay. I removed the front passenger wheel arch covering and turned the wheel left which gives me direct and easy-peezy access to right under the battery tray. Nice.










Here you can see the wires' path up toward the engine bay along the same path as a very securely mounted stock wire. I also found where the thin ground wire that goes to the battery meets the frame. Couldn't see where it went in earlier posts. I don't need to upgrade this because I'm not grounding to the frame but if I was, I'd be upgrading this stock 8AWG wire in a jiffy! Damn... I guess most stuff grounds to the body in this vehicle.

Oh, the plastic bag you see is to keep the wires from rubbing off the waxy coating in areas I couldn't see while I was running the wires. I hope it worked. 

Looks close to the exhaust but it's actually pretty far away.










For the negative, which is going to the side of the battery opposite the engine (close to the fender) I went under the battery try using existing holes and some GM-spec 3/4" wire holder clampy things. Available all over eBay. The same ones GM uses in the engine bay and to run wires along the frame. They are next to impossible to rip off so very secure (so long as they're in the right-sized hole and luckily GM left me with the exact holes in great places).


















You can see where it connects to the KnuKnoceptz Basic terminal. I HATE these things. Getting a clamp on the battery terminal is next to impossible. I can wiggle it right off. I contacted Knu, sent them my terminals they said they're in spec. Whatever... absolute garbage. I finally got a good clamp but I'm going to come up with another solution - just tried to retain OEM grounding wires and this was my only solution. Guess I'll cut the OEM wires after I get a battery that doesn't have the recessed terminals like this annoying Group 94R battery or have something custom done up.

None of this battery wiring is as pretty as I want it to be but GM had to put that damn fuse block right on top of the battery so... it is what it is.










Here's how these clampy things lock into the hole. Very strong... you wouldn't think but very strong.










Oh, and for what it's worth, here's the largest give or take you can cut an amp board for a double cab with the sliding rear window. I think the 12" height might have to be reduced to around 11 or 10.5" but I'm not there yet.










So... in summary - dealing with full copper 1/0 wire is a pain in the ass. Dealing with two of them contorting in odd positions upsidedown holding drills and screws and stuff in place?... a pain in the collective asses of the world.

And if you didn't notice it, the split loom is taped every few inches. Not going anywhere, the wires are on the topside of the frame same as stock wiring and I highly doubt they'll ever come into contact with anything... they're like, about 2' off the ground.

Don't have photos of the positive wire.. will deal with that when I get a fuse mount fabbed up and what not. Right now just have it jerry rigged.


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## sirbOOm

I've been talking with PAC Audio about creating a device that intercepts the bongs/chimes and outputs them instead to a separate speaker, similar to what they do with their RP5 and OS-4 adapter modules in the NNBS GM vehicles. They informed me that the chimes are created in the stereo head unit on non-bose models and they cannot be bypassed except by removing/changing the head unit. I may do this in the future when Alpine or someone comes up with a dash kit that will fit their 8" or 9" screen - I'm not replacing a 8" screen with a smaller screen... that'd be ludicrous. I can custom work it (more like get it custom worked) but I'm not in the mood or financial place for that right now.


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## SoulRebel

sirbOOm said:


> I've been talking with PAC Audio about creating a device that intercepts the bongs/chimes and outputs them instead to a separate speaker, similar to what they do with their RP5 and OS-4 adapter modules in the NNBS GM vehicles. They informed me that the chimes are created in the stereo head unit on non-bose models and they cannot be bypassed except by removing/changing the head unit. I may do this in the future when Alpine or someone comes up with a dash kit that will fit their 8" or 9" screen - I'm not replacing a 8" screen with a smaller screen... that'd be ludicrous. I can custom work it (more like get it custom worked) but I'm not in the mood or financial place for that right now.


Hello, I have a 2014 Silverado Crew Cab LTZ 4wd w/nav, non-bose that I'll be putting a system in. I got the nav and non-bose because I figured I'd replace the stock speakers, add amplifiers and use the head unit as the source. The more I research though, the more I'm leaning towards an after market HU like the Alpine X008U w/8" screen. If you look at the Perfect Fit Solutions under Products on the Alpine website, you'll see they have an installation kit for our trucks. Also, when used in combination with the iDatalink Maestro module you can keep factory controls and still be able to use the information screen in the gauge cluster.


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## sirbOOm

I just saw that last night shortly after my last post! When I got started and budgeted this out, it wasn't available and I really can't afford this stuff right now but it's next.

This is it: Alpine Electronics of America, Inc.

Thanks for chiming in on that! I wish I had known about it before...


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## EricB

So here is how i am tackling the problem, The bluetooth and chimes come through the front speaker so I am leaving my front dash tweeter/mid in. I am making a bridge across them to mount my tweetes on (I am running a two way active system with 6.5 in door). Then I am pulling signal from my rear speakers to my DSP. With the Headunit fade all the way to the rear, no music plays through the front dash speakers yet the chimes and bluetooth still work through them when the system takes over the head unit. THis works for me because I am running two way. The other option for 3 way is to remove the front dash speakers from their factory location and slide them over to the side. THere is plenty of room for the little guy to fit to the side/under where it was originally mounted. THen you could put an aftermarket mid in the factory location. Leave the originals ones still plugged in for their chime and bluetooth duties. Follow me??? I cant figure out any other way to do it for my case.


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## sirbOOm

^ Good plan. If I have bong volume issues with the RF 360.3 + ZED setup, I'll do the shifting of the dash speaker option. Simple take my radio cluster apart, replace the OEM front speaker wires into the harness. I'd just plug in the left speaker on the dash. The right one is of no use, I think, and there's actually less space on the right side of the dash to stuff a speaker off and away.


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## EricB

Bluetooth is stereo so the right speaker is playing also. Double checked that today.


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## SoulRebel

FWIW, the iDatalink Maestro is available with or without chime speaker. I was just on their website and I don't see the 2014 Silverado listed but I'm sure it's a matter of time if it's not out already. Just a matter of DLing an update I'm sure. Alpine also has a nice DSP that gives you a 31 band graphic eq for the speakers, 10 for the sub, time correction and other goodies.

As far as my future build, I'll be going with 3 BM MKIV's I ordered from Nick underneath my rear seats with a 1/2" lift and maybe some Morel Virtus 3-ways for the front stage and the 2-ways for rear fill in the doors. I was thinking of mounting the mid and tweeter for the 3-ways in some dash pods. If I use the footprint of the grill on the dash I should be able to build something nice. That way I don't have to f*** around with the pillars and the tweets and mids are on the same plane. Midbasses would go in the doors.


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## sirbOOm

Those dash pods are part of my next stage!! Good minds think alike. That's why I got a second panel door that part of the dash 

BT is stereo... never noticed. Good to know. Thx.


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## sirbOOm

I'm hoping on BK is good enough for my bass needs. Can't wait to hear the damn thing.


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## sirbOOm

I did a quick comparison tonight of the Pioneer Stage 4 midbass and my Image Dynamics X69 (6x9s) speakers in the doors today using just the Metra speaker adapters (quick and easy for some fun). I have the ID's from a cheap eBay find - figured maybe if the Pioneers don't give me enough midbass I can do the 6x9's. Note: these speakers were not bandpassed, just high-passed at around 60-70 Hz, so they were going into the realm of the Pioneer midranges I have mocked up (i.e., quickly connected and sitting in their holes held down by their own weight). Also note that I didn't have door panels on and the Metra adapters were not totally secured nor decoupled so they had a tendency to rattle in the middle area against the metal (design flaw of these actually, they sort of bow/come off the metal in the middle (heighth-wise) and even screwning them down on the bottom wouldn't really solve that without a healthy foam layer in-between... but that's typical of Metra adapters (they are too flexy to be great).

What I noticed immediately was that the ID doesn't blend with the Pioneer midranges so well. Again, not bandpassed so it's jumping into territory it shouldn't be going so really this is to be tolerated. The IDs produce (off of the 50 watt JBL GTO amp I was powering them with) very tight midbass and I'd argue that if you weren't an electronic/rap listener you wouldn't need subwoofers. They had zero trouble producing sub bass when given a full-range signal and really filled the cab with bass. Back to midbass though... you can really feel it in the knee/leg. I don't know the technical way to describe this so here we go... you know when you're putting a low note through a really big subwoofer (for example) and you hear the bass kind of this way: a constant buhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuh that you also feel as a pulsating in your chest? These do that which either is a good thing or bad thing, I don't know. Because, you'll see, when the Pioneers went in, it was a different reproduction. 

The Pioneers blended like a glove with the midrange. I almost didn't realize they weren't bandpassed. I suppose that's a very good thing as dealing with crossover points later might prove to be easier. Well... they were made to work together. Frankly I was expecting MUCH less midbass/bass from these compared to a beefy and well-respected 6x9 like the IDs. Wrong. They produced just as much if not more if it and there were zero peaks like were rarely but still present with the IDs (probably attributable to the half-ass installation more so than the speaker's limitations... but still). Now, these produced bass differently. I'll call it... faster? You did not get the buhbuhbuhbuhbuh but instead, with the same songs for A/B'ing to the IDs, you got just buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh. I could not discern that the speaker was moving AT ALL. With the IDs, I could but it was nontheless pleasant (I kind of like that buhbuhbuhbuh-produced bass). You did not feel the bass as much with these but you heard it just as loudly and more cleanly.

I did find, though, that the IDs did a better job of true midbass frequencies (which I'll call above 80 Hz because that's what I set the crossover to to cut off "sub bass" in the comparison). I think I can describe this this way: the IDs were not warm - they were, I guess, "clinical" - articulate, did everything right, but were maybe a bit hollow in the midbass region - didn't feel realism like I did with the Pioneers. Tuning needed. But with the Pioneers (and I noticed this in bench testing in a box I made) they sounded almost too warm, almost too capable with sub bass and not as capable with midbass. I did not hear that snap that the IDs did, even if the ID's snap sounded a bit... "not right". 

I noticed this with the Pioneers when I did an A/B in the box I mentioned above with the Audison Voce woofers, which seem to be made from a similar paper-ish type material as the IDs. The Audisons snapped/hit midbass notes with more presence, authority than the Pioneers. This worried me then and it worries me now. That said, I had the gains on the amp basically all the way down. I turned the gain up to the point where the JBL GTO setup CD test tone thing said I had reached clipping (or whatever the red light actually means) on the Pioneer midbass just to see what happened and they woke up.

Oh... the word "flat" comes to mind as I'm thinking about the Stage 4 demo car we have at the shop. They're very natural sounding but at the same time I'm just sensing a lack of impact in the true midbass area. Could have been my source material but in the demo car, flat or bland was the first thought I had about it when I listened to it (to be honest, it sounds great and has won awards but let's say its tune wouldn't be what I ended up with). Clearly there is room to tune with these though - they were barely moving and they were producing some of the smoothest vocals (when blended with the midranges) I've heard in any vehicle I've personally installed. I'm not lacking in bass ability with these 6.5" vs. a 6x9" so far so I am most likely going forward with the full Pioneer 3-way setup vs. a partial. I hope giving the speaker some better instruction from the processor will solve this. Nothing the Pioneers did was bad but when you can do an A/B comparison to other high-end woofers you hear the differences and there was something about them missing but everything else was sublime - I mean... even Janet Jackson songs were tolerable to listen to... that's what tuning is for!

I get the impression so far that the Pioneer Stage 4 two way would have a great sonic profile for my impression of what most country and electronic music should sound like. I'm not as confident when we're talking about high impact rock like the band Clutch that have a lot of distorted guitar/bass kicks but the band Bastille is like sex from these things. So... we'll see. 

Now back outside to do some Stinger Roadkilling to the passenger door, then I'm calling it a night. Slowing down a little bit here as I'm struggling at work not getting enough sleep due to fitting in the rest of my work/personal life and this install - whine, whine. Getting on the edge of rushing because of how close I am to a buttoned up and ready to tune system so I'm breaking things up which is now possible because my interior is mostly back together (except the back) and the truck is driveable. Can't drive a truck with no seats, no carpet, no headliner, etc.

I hope to be done this weekend or mid next week. Then I'll be on hear complaing about how terrible I am at advanced tuning compared to others and how I hope and pray people at the NC meet will help!


----------



## JayinMI

sirbOOm said:


> I get the impression so far that the Pioneer Stage 4 two way would have a great sonic profile for my impression of what most country and electronic music should sound like. I'm not as confident when we're talking about high impact rock like the band Clutch that have a lot of distorted guitar/bass kicks but the band Bastille is like sex from these things. So... we'll see.


Clutch is a hard band to get to sound great on a consistent basis.

Jay


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## sirbOOm

Got one door speaker in properly and the faults of the Pioneer I noted above are all but gone. Door deadened, sealed. HDPE baffle with each layer epoxied and screwed down. Baffles mounted using threaded rivets to the metal (don't have pix of that, sorry). 

Putting the door card back on these trucks is a NIGHTMARE! Ug... 

Oh, and yes... I redid my baffles to a backer (same as before) but just round layers on top to bring the speaker to the door card so I could clear the mounting screws. I did use fast rings but no pix as I put them in from under the door card to ensure the right cut. Speaker is pretty close to the grill anyway. Also used gasketing tape under the main baffle adapter to the door metal and the speaker. 

Zero vibrations/rattles so far.

Front driver door:









Passenger:









Mid installed (don't mind the epoxy and silver screws everywhere... I took care of that mess before buttoning it all up and sprayed the things black just in case i could see the screws through the grill - doubtful). All that mess on the metal was cleaned up too.









Oh, and all CLD seams were covered with aluminum tape... for what its worth. Makes it look cleaner.

Oh #2... the black things on the door are stock MLV-type stuff. Kept them. Noticeable difference driving when they aren't there. They stick right back on without a heat gun but I heated them up for extra stickification. :laugh:


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## cwharris911

The trick to putting the doors back together on these is to remove the molding at the top of the door, there are 4-5 clips that hold it onto the panel, you then position it on the door and then the panel basically snaps on, no sliding and lining up the lock, etc.

http://b.cdnbrm.com/images/info/AMP_Research/AMP_75154-01A.pdf has instructions for door panel removal and is where I got this gem, took me 30 min to get my first one back on and only 3 when I took the rubber molding off like it says to here. See page 9 steps 25-28.


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## sirbOOm

Now you tell me. Well I'm sure I'll have them off again if I decide to do luxury liner. Thanks!


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## sirbOOm

Well... I tried to finish this weekend but this boy got ill. Dog too. Chicken prolly. 

Felt a bit better this evening and so I made me a circuit breaker holder and hooked up the 360 and Leviathan for ****s and giggles. 

No tweeters yet just the mid and midbass. The midbass had no argument being crossed 30 hz up... not full power but that was a first for any of my own installs. I set it at 63 -400 and the mid at 400+ while I await the sub and tweeter install... at least have a bit of bass and top end. The Levi vs the JBL is almost night and day... interesting. Much, much tighter midbass (including now a mystery buzz I cannot for the life of me pinpoint... seems to be coming from the middle of the lower dash but putting pressure all over didn't resolved it yet. Boo!). Anyway sounds seem to have spread out notably... more definition of each sound I mean to say. This is with the Levi gains all the way down... didn't deal with amp tuning tonight. Not sure the method I'll go about that yet. Midbass is still a little on the warm/soft side for me so we'll see what tuning brings me. It isn't doing what the Alpine SPX17PRO's midbass (which is really not that great at midBASS) was great at... that tight defined upper midbass. Maybe its my baffle... we'll see. Different speakers sound different.

The circuit breaker mount is made of plate steel from Lowes or Depot whichever. Used a metal cut blade on my jigsaw to make it and straightened imperfections out with a sander. Looks pretty good but not CNC-machined proper tools available perfect... maybe something nicer later but no imperfection is really noticeable once installed so... humbug. Can post the dimensions if you want. 










Using 10/32 hurricane nuts to hold amps and 360 to the board. 10/32 is the biggest size screw that'll fit through the ZED amp mounting feet as-is. Write that down.  Hurricanes used so I can spread the load of the amps. Nuts were installed with a dab of epoxy in the hole so that they never come loose. Better not... they are tricky little f'ers sometimes when in MDF.










Not decided how I'm gonna mount this thing. With the amps on it it's gotta weigh like 30 lbs or at least it feels like it. Damn. The Leviathan is a beast - carry with two hands man. Minotaur too but weighs less. Will be covering the board in a layer of fiberglass or two to hopefully reinforce it. It doesn't bend per say but me trying to bend it is different than driving on a crappy road or something. Then carpet or some other covering. I don't have any carpet on me. Maybe I'll just use the 700 billion feet of black grill cloth I have. Nobody will see it anyway haha. Or just get carpet like I should. Will router then edges of the board before that so the material lays nicely.


















Oh... and I got the rear center seatbelt out. Don't need it. Its in the way of my preferred amp mounting so... goodbye. Got it out with a different approach angle and a good push. Boxed it up for when I sell the truck someday. Could have worked around it but I didn't want to... so yeah.


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## sirbOOm

So driving to work today I noticed that even with Apple Lossless songs coming from my iPhone sound not as good as the same song from a CD. Stock head unit limitation, I guess. That's unfortunate...


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## sirbOOm

Well I hit a couple roadblocks today in relation to the dash speakers... of course. 

1) Where I've been keeping the screws that came with the Stage 4 components (in the box) does not have the two screws that lock in the midrange's "pod" to the midrange. A screw goes into the back in the middle of the magnet that holds the pod in. Easy find at Lowes... I have the right size/thread but they're too long so just need some shorter ones. Bloody annoying. I probably vacuumed them up at some point between when I got them and now... teaches me for opening the box and playing with my new toys before the time was right... haha. That's the easy roadblock... more of speed bump.

2) Getting the midrange in its pod into the dash locations is going to be a damn near miracle. See, I have to hold down the speaker/pod so it presses down the MLV type stuff in the way under it. It'll go all the way down but the MLV stuff resists so it'll pop the speaker out unless I'm holding it down. This means either I cut that stuff (I don't want to do this... it blocks firewall noise, of course) or I come up with something to hold it down. Why do I need to hold it down? I need to very bloody carefully (so as not to poke a hole in them) screw them down. Of course I'm missing those screws that came with the midranges too (all were in one packet, no doubt) but, again, that's a speedbump. The roadblock is that I could do this with ease if I didn't have a windshield! But I do. So I need to figure out a way to mock up where the screw holes are going to need to be. Normally this would be elementary but here's the kicker. The midranges only fit into the pods one way because of the speaker terminals - they'll bottom out on the angled end of the pod (kind of like tweeter angle mount pods) so I need to have the midrange and pod lined up just right, screwed down, then put the screw holes where I need them to be. I think I'll only be able to manage 3 out of the 4 screws. And I need teeny tiny screws to get through the midranges screw holes and I am worried those bitty things won't bite enough into the plastic to hold the midrange down resisting against the MLV stuff below it. I have my ideas but I decided to step away tonight because I was royally ticked off and so I figured 17 billion hours of non-stop fetch with the pooch (he NEVER gets tired of it... EVER) was better time spent.

But... I did make non-roadblock-related progress. Finished up the circuit breaker and engine bay wiring (for now). Using a marine one because the last non-marine one of these sorts I used (Fosgate branded) ended up locking up for no damn reason - never got wet. I'd like to pretty this up later (i.e., wires going straight up and down from the breaker vs. how they are now... it'd look better). Also need to use a lock washer for the mount so it doesn't move the teeny bit that it does when I am torquing down the wires to the breaker. I corrected its slight angle (if you can even see it) after the photo. Fine for now - it doesn't budge unless I'm ratcheting on the breaker's terminal bolts with some balls so no worries... I like the outcome.


















And, prey tell, how did I get the Pioneer midrange cup in a hold that was too small? Well, I made the hole bigger to 2 11/16 like is needed. Original hole is 2 9/16. I just used my dremel VEWWWY CARFUWWY and then hand sanded the circle so it was nicer. Turned out nice. I have to do the other side but, as I went on and on about already, I decided to shut down the dash speaker quest for today. Didn't take much time at all. And, yes, I vacuumed out that mess with the trusty shop vac.


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## REGULARCAB

Ahhh you finally cut that hole. Looks nice n clean. Im also a fan of the wiring you did, it seems to blend in nicely and is routed with care and attention to detail.


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## sirbOOm

Thanks. It works. 

Damn. Someone would make a killing making midranges that fit here using the stock screws.


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## JoshHefnerX

If you need to shorten a screw, put a nut on it and cut it to length and use a file to very slightly taper the end. Taking the nut off will then clean up the threads.

Josh


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## sirbOOm

...and found the screws. In my Audison Voce tweeter box. Makes sense...

Went out and played with mounting of the midrange in the hole. Pressed in the right way I got very little resistance. I'm going to replace my POS Milwaukee scewdriver tomorrow (it locked up the very first time I used it... nice), get some bolts and associated nuts smaller than 6/32 (the holes in the mids are even smaller than that apparently) if I can find them. I think bolting them in will be easier than screwing. I can mark the hole, make a hole, then put the bolt up through the bottom and use a nice and short bit to lock them down. Will scratch the paint on the mid but they'll be under a grill so (aside from perhaps resale value) I don't care. Maybe I'll be lucky and find small enough rubber washers or maybe O-rings. The screws that came with the midrange aren't going to bite as well as I need them to I think and there's ZERO room for error as the lip Pioneer leaves you with when these are in the pods and there's a 2 11/16" hole is like... a millimeter or two. Dicks...

Noticed also that the pod doesn't seal to the speaker but that's why they provide foam. Using my own foam to decouple the speaker from its mount anyway but that's goofy. The pod design is just okay... obviously done to keep costs down. I would have made the pod itself a mounting contraption for dash locations that usually employ just two screws (mounting the speaker itself to the pod with 4 flat top screws into nutserts kind of like is in the speaker adapters that come with Alpine speakers. The flange would be a lot like the dash location tweeter mounts found with Audison Voce tweeters and many others -- a elongated hole to account for different dash designs. That would have probably cost Pioneer 4 times as much to make so understandable. Where's my damn 3D printer when I need it. Oh wait, I don't have one... crrraaaap. I'd "plastic weld" what I need to use the OEM screw locations but I do not want to risk ruining an irreplaceable item like these pods (doubt Pioneer would send me a another set because I melted the ones I had!).


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## sirbOOm

I got the midranges in their spots. Used the OEM screws and a washer to press them down, then spent forever getting the little screws that came with them locked down. Scratched up the midranges a bit with this method but that is how it has to be and nobody will see them anyway so it is what it is. I put some foam behind them... not sure that's going to do a single thing but I figured... might as well since I had it. Man... getting these things in there sucked. I really needed a teeny tiny drill so I didn't have to start screws with the screw itself...


























Put the unfinished a-pillars in for a test fit after putting the grill panel over the midranges back in. Nice to have that back in... whats under it reflects off the windshield and it was annoying driving with that. The tweeters are obviously just taped in right now because once they're locked in there's no easy way of getting them out. They fit in the cups perfectly. Looks good. I have to shape the passenger pillar a bit more and then they'll be ready for getting fancied up. The green tape and bondo kind of stands out, huh? 



















I set some preliminary crossover settings - Butterworth at 24db
- Midbass: 80-450
- Midrange: 450-6000
- Tweeter: 6000+

I tried a bunch of other combinations to play around and this is what I settled on for now. I can tune a two way but damn me if I can figure out a 3-way... ug.

Here's some issues that have popped up that I either had not noticed before or weren't there before:
- I have noise. Not alternator whine. Just an apparent weeeeeee that does not change with RPM, with the car off, or with the car on and just idling. Same thing every time. Adding a load to the electrical system will change it a bit - like turning on the AC. I was really hoping I would not have to contend against noise. Turning down levels on the 360 and amp make it go away but then I have next to no respectable volume so that's not going to work. IME high-level speaker signal isn't subject to noise as much as an RCA and the RCA's (Stinger 4000 17' 6-channel model for now) are not laid out near any power wires. I haven't attempted to diagnose but I plan on disconnecting the passenger side speakers to see if those wires are picking up noise. Kind of fruitless to do that because my signal comes along the passenger side as well (above the power wires on the frame outside of the vehicle. I didn't think the power wires outside with a layer of metal between would induce noise and hopefully it is not. I'm grounding straight to the battery, not the body, and I haven't done an Ohm test on that ground yet... figured I'd role in here for an update then I have to go out tonight so closed up shop. Not happy about this... 
- My midrange speakers are distorting at any volume but of course more notable at high volume around 250 Hz. Sounds like they're breaking up but they are barely moving. I turned down 250Hz and around it for now to address this but it's a fine line toward the music/vocals sounding hallow. I'm concerned that the ZED is too much for them, even if the gains are very low.
- I have a rattle in my door that literally sounds like it's coming from the speaker itself. So shortly I will be ripping off my door panels again to see what the deal is. I hope it's not the speaker complaining about the ZED's power as the door panel itself doesn't seem to be rattling... pressing on it usually would halt or reduce a rattle and that has no effect. Not sure what the deal is here... the speakers don't sound blown and BOTH of them in both doors make the exact same rattle sound (maybe its the same distortion as the midrange that's making this sound).

I'm beginning to wonder if my stock head unit is delivering quality signal. The 360 flattened it and one click down from max volume was where it clipped so it's at least putitng out a non-clipped signal. The EQ adjustments the 360 did to flatten the signal were very minimal - surprisingly so... so I thought I was getting lucky here.

I guess one thing I can do is rig up an aftermarket head unit I have to see if that signal addresses any of these issues. I also plan to add a chassis ground but I wasn't going to do that until I mount the amp rack to the back wall - haven't gotten to that yet.

I should note that I did notice the same distortion now that I think of it when I had the JBL amplifiers rigged up for testing on a few drives to work. So I'm crossing my fingers it's not the ZED amplifier that's the issue. We'll see. Really don't have time to address noise on top of finishing the install which now would equate to mounting the amp rack, running and cleaning up wires, some cosmetic stuff under the rear seats where you can see some aluminum tape (oops... I will put MLV stuff I have along these areas and you'll see the black MLV not the body paint and aluminum tape, which I like better anyway), and putting the rear seats back in. Then cleaning up my garage!

I had a noise issue with my 2011 Silverado... I was hoping that would not be a trend.

Any advice is welcome...


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## sirbOOm

I suppose I should also mention, unfortunately, that as it is now I am NOT happy with the sound. A futile (rushed) attempt at time alignment gets an okay center that's coming about from the back of the hood (the part closest to the windshield) but it gets a bit narrow. I had a great center with no tweeter for a week or so - loved it. Adding the tweeter screwed things up which I suppose is to be expected. But with this distortion I'm getting coupled with vocals sounding a bit... echoy?... I can't listen to anything but techno without becoming frustrated. I hope tuning solves this... translated, I hope whomever tunes this can solve it. Haha. I like installing but to be honest, I really am not a lover of tuning. I get the principles but with a 3-way I just don't know so well where to start and when I get somewhere, adjusting the next speaker set screws it up or only gets close. Just a lot of variables I am not yet able to manage on my own with confidence. Someday...

The Pioneers do blend nicely with each other and the tweeter is actually better than I originally gave it credit for. The weak link now is the midrange actually... that and I still am a bit unhappy with the midbasses. I think maybe the "tube" nature of my adapter baffle (essentially 3 speaker rings stacked) is causing me issues there... hopefully that's the only thing in the way from that midbass sounding right. I noticed flipping the phase on either the driver or passenger midbass really changed things A LOT so I'm thinking I might have switched a + and - in the door... hope not... maybe that's just how it is. I wont' say it's for the better but it does immediately bring bass up to the dash, which I can do with time alignment alright but it's a big difference. I lose something though when flipping the phase and I'm not comfortable with just a single door speaker's phase flipped - seems weird to me that that would solve something vs. an install mistake.


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## Beckerson1

Ground loop. Seeing your grounded to the battery (I assume amps and at least the 360.3) re ground the stock hu to the battery. This hopefully will get rid of your noise. Noticed with my 360.3 if every piece of audio equipment wasn't connected to the same ground i would have noise. Not a specific issue with the 360.3. Just what fixed my issue (similar noise to you btw)


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## sirbOOm

Ill try that, thanks. 

I disconnected the speaker wires, still noise. Disconnected RCAs, still noise. Turn up the AC noise gets louder. Hopefully me having run the signal from the radio across where the climate core is isn't the issue. Do this all the time though so... hope not.


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## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> Ill try that, thanks.
> 
> I disconnected the speaker wires, still noise. Disconnected RCAs, still noise. Turn up the AC noise gets louder. Hopefully me having run the signal from the radio across where the climate core is isn't the issue. Do this all the time though so... hope not.


If that was the issue it would have gone away after removing rcas though. Now my noise didn't get louder with the AC though. But still feel ground loop. Pesky little thing it is


----------



## sirbOOm

Alrighty. So some promising progress today, with a sprinkling of annoyance.

1) Isolatedthe 360 as the noise source. Bypass it and noise gone. Going out now to reground the OEM radio to the 360's ground as suggested to hopefully eliminate the noise but as you're about to read it may not even be worth my time. I'm remembering now as well that I got rid of noise in my other Silverado by using power and ground from the same points as the amps. Was part of a reinstall so I didn't even think of it as a solution. Idiot...

2) I rigged up my Clarion 9275 to the 360 and also direct to my Leviathan. The distortion I heard is totally and obviously gone. And man does that thing sound good! I had it for a while and never hooked it up to any car because, well, no USB input. But wow... the SQ blew the stock HU out of the water! Damnit! Now I'm gonna have to spring for the aforementioned Alpine 8" and dash kit. Was hoping to be able to avoid that expense. 

Even with the Clarion hooked up and stock HU bypassed I got noise when the 360 was in the signal path. That is the only thing concerning me still. Why would there be noise if the stock HU wasn't in the signal path? We'll see. 

I'm going to recalibrate the stock HU after regrounding it. I plan on lowering the volume it calibrates at first. If that doesn't do anything I'll lower the levels on the 360 during setup and see if that has a positive effect. Nice to know though that my Levi is fine. 

Man that Clarion... what a delight that was to hear.


----------



## Beckerson1

One thing to check also on the 360.3 would be the balanced/unbalanced switch. See if one improves the noise over the other.


----------



## sirbOOm

Okay so I regrounded the radio. No effect. That was futile anyway because the radio will turn on even without it's ground wire so its grounding through the antennas or something which equates to the body. So I grounded everything to the body this time not using my ground run to the battery at all. Still noise. 

I noticed that if I discinnect the high level inputs from the 360 the noise all but disappears which leads me to wonder if my high level signal is picking up noise along the way... which I never have had happen before. Only way to test this is to run a signal wire from the front and see if I get noise or not. But connecting my high level signal run to a test speaker yields zero noise so I think really it's the 360. If this 360 is bad, it'd be the 3rd 360 to go bad in me (this is my second warranty replacement direct from RF I'm installing here). If it's the culprit, I'm done with the 360. Done. Hopefully it's not as it was brand new in plastic before I hooker it up, not a refurb.


----------



## sirbOOm

If it's switched to Balanced the noise becomes exponentially worse. Sounds like a scary movie. Ree ree reeeeeer


----------



## sirbOOm

Ok. Last test. Just hooked up the high level signal direct to my amp. I get the noise although the Levi does a much better job of filtering it out. So I think the 360 is fine, 3rd's a charm right. Going to run a quick temporary new signal from the radio and see what happens. Maybe my signal is picking up noise from the climate core... that'd suck ass cuz I really don't want to lift panels again to run the signal on the opposite side. Grrrr


----------



## REGULARCAB

Totally different truck but I can somewhat relate to your issue. My god damn 2004 Silverado would pick up noise whenever I had the ac fan running. I had finally switched to some stinger twisted pair rca's and the issue was gone... tho that made no sense considering my amps "should" prefer simple shielded over a twisted pair.

Hopefully you get it figured out. Noise issues are a PITA!!!!!


----------



## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> If it's switched to Balanced the noise becomes exponentially worse. Sounds like a scary movie. Ree ree reeeeeer


ugh!!! I cringed when you said that.


----------



## sirbOOm

Well in my case I'm not using RCAs to deliver input signal. I'm using Stinger 4000 for RCAs from the 360 to the amps for now. Need to custom make RCAs because I need like... a foot length one and a 4' length one, haha.

One more test...

I gave the radio + and - from the same source as my amps/360. Interestingly the radio still turns on/off when it's not getting the power from its normal power wiring - gets turned on by computer, I guess. Then I bypassed my signal run with some speaker cable ran above the interior seats and what not down the center to the 360 and bypassing the 360 to the Leviathan. I get the noise in both instances but the Leviathan does a better job filtering it, which is why I may not have noticed it in other situations and thus started to blame the 360. The ONLY time the noise goes away is when high-level signal from the stock radio is eliminated! What the fruck! This is all with a common chassis ground, with a common direct to battery ground (for all audio-related stuff), and the original signal wire bundle that goes across the climate core moved far away from any other wiring.

I guess my only next step is to put this 1F Fosgate capacitor I have in line to the power and see if that perhaps filters out offending noise from the power input, but I just highly doubt that's going to do anything but waste cable and ring connectors. Or maybe see what a LOC does... but I don't have one of those sitting around. I hate the cheap ones and the expensive ones are expensive. Oy...

The Clarion HU connected with RCAs to the 360 and running off of the same power/ground as the stock HU now does not produce noise... dead silence. 

I guess it's possible that my head unit is either defective or even has somehow been damaged due to the work I've been doing (although I don't see how I could have done that... all I did was replace pins with new pins to bypass the stock speaker wiring while the connectors were disconnected and it runs speakers from my original signal wires bundle without any audible noise).

There's one instance where at the shop we had to put an MSD-branded electrical noise reducer to eliminate alternator whine in a system when nothing else worked. I don't have alternator wine, just a weerrr weerrrrr that stays the same unless you turn up the A/C. But all wiring that goes near the climate core has been bypassed... well except for the USB and Ethernet cord for the 360 but I disconnected those from the 360, still noise... and I'd cry if those induced noise into the entire system even when the 360 was bypassed... that'd just be ridiculous.

So... I know that an aftermarket HU eliminates the noise issue (and my distortion issue). I know that when I disconnect any audio signal from the head unit to directly to the amp or through the 360 the noise goes away... which is to be expected. I don't know if it is the head unit, though, or if it's something else I'm not considering. I guess I have no choice but to throw the capacitor in-line and see what happens. Honestly I've never had one of those do anything for me.

Really was hoping to wrap it up this weekend and finally have my rear seats back in. The road noise coming from the rear wall and cabin vents with no sound blocking stuff is driving me up a wall.


----------



## REGULARCAB

You would still have to take things apart again but I would re run the signal wires and would also twist em, see if that helps at all.


----------



## sirbOOm

Cap of course did nothing. Going to try a cheap LOC from Walmart tomorrow. Giving up tonight. Re-he-he-heally don't want to use LOC - SQ after those things is always less IME. Even with the good ones.


----------



## sirbOOm

REGULARCAB said:


> You would still have to take things apart again but I would re run the signal wires and would also twist em, see if that helps at all.


The signal wire is a Stinger or whomever brand 9-wire bundle which is already twisted within the sheathing. Regardless, I've bypassed that 9-wire bundle with a signal wire straight down the middle of the car not anywhere near anything that might create noise and I get the exact same noise.

Interestingly I found that if I connect just the negative or postive speaker wire for signal I get MORE noise. When the other wire is connected, less noise but still that noise. And if I connect one or the other wire I actually get audible music coming through into the processor or Leviathan. It's quiet and distorted, but I do get music and bong/chime sounds. That makes no sense. The + and - speaker wire should both have to be connected for any signal to pass - completing a circuit. This isn't an issue of a frayed wire because we're talking about the bypass signal wire which is brand new speaker wire and it's not compromised anywhere. I guess perhaps this may be the root of the issue? I mean why would just connecting a + or - (not both... just half) of a speaker wire signal actually transmit audible music/chimes into the 360 or Leviathan? Shouldn't I have to have both of them connected for signal to actually go through - complete circuit?


----------



## JoshHefnerX

If you try the clarion hu to the 360 via high level and it's making not noise it's going to be the factory head unit. Could you pull the factory head unit out and leave the antennas off to be sure that it's ONLY grounding through the ground wire? If that's clean then you can add the antenna back, and see what it does.


----------



## sirbOOm

The factory head unit equates to a screen and two modules behind it that contain the electronics. If I remove the ground wire to the "stereo" part of those electronics, the radio still turns on and produces sound which tells me it's grounding through the antenna(s). So, I disconnected all of them (there appear to be three, one AM/FM, one satellite, and another I guess might be for OnStar - or at least it looks like an antenna wire). I still get the noise - just as loud, too. In fact, I can't get the OEM radio to turn off by removing the ground wire to it and all antennas... it still stays on. So it is grounding to something somehow or I'm missing a ground wire entirely. I'm going to try that again tomorrow as I wasn't being methodical.

The Clarion doesn't have high-level outputs; it doesn't have an internal amplifier. That might be an experiment to try but I can get the noise bypassing the 360 and going straight to the amp. Anytime the stock HU connects to any audio equipment, no matter where it is grounded to (chassis or direct to the battery) I get the noise. It literally sounds like the noise they give alien spacecraft in movies - weeerrr weeerrrrrr rreeerrrrwwrrrer. Not even a 2AWG ground direct to stock grounding points or bare metal on the body eliminates the noise. It's absolutely ridiculous. The noise is not present when the stock radio is just playing a speaker.

I thought maybe I was getting noise from one side of the car via the output speaker wires. Totally unlikely but easy to disconnect the left and right and see what happens. No difference. Just noise on one side instead of the other. I tried the rear high-level outputs of the head unit vs. what I was using (the front)... no difference.

Flummoxed is the word. Flummoxed.

I don't have a Fluke-grade DMM to test Ohm with any sort of great sensitivity but I get a 0 resistance at the radio, 0 with my battery ground, 0 with the couple chassis grounds I tried, and 0 testing grounds of oem wiring just to compare. So obviously my DMM isn't telling me crap but you would think a direct wire to the battery would be fine. The only time a direct wire to the battery is really a potential issue is with alternator whine, so I'm told. This noise happens with the car off so no alternator. Plus I've done common chassis and battery grounding for all audio equipment, no effect.

I guess it's the stock HU... doesn't like being connected to aftermarket audio equipment. Or I am missing something. Gotta be missing something. I figure this because Musicar Northwest used the stock head unit (albeit pulling signal from the BOSE amplifier, which I do not have) and apparently they had no issues.


----------



## REGULARCAB

Its not something stupid like the chassis of the levi being grounded to metal? I wouldn't think so if the sound was at least quieter going straight to it.

I would imagine that you have connected and disconnected enough times that you don't simply have one of the signal wires polarity reversed.

That factory HU has to be grounded somewhere its not supposed to be. Or there is another ground you just haven't found yet. I know the sat radio and possibly onstar are also fed power along with a signal connection. I would imagine your wiring diagram tells you that however.

I would be fricken livid


----------



## REGULARCAB

Have you done an amp swap?

EDIT: nevermind im retarded


----------



## sirbOOm

The Levi is bolted to the amp board I have pictured above which is just laying on the floor of the truck right now (as I haven't figured how to mount it the way I want to mount it).

I'm really at a loss at this point as to what to do with this thing. A good chassis ground should have solved the issue if it was the fact that I had grounded the amps/360 direct to the battery. If it was the 360, the Levi wouldn't put the noise through if I just directly connected to it. But given that the stock HU will play music out of test speakers without producing that noise and it is only when the stock HU is connected to an aftermarket piece of audio equipment that it makes the noise, there either has to be a grounding issue at the head unit or it, for some reason, will not send clean signal to anything but speakers... which I don't understand how it would know the difference.

I was running a couple JBL amps before just to have music. Might as well throw one back in and see what happens, but I bet I'll just get noise with less SQ... haha.


----------



## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> The Levi is bolted to the amp board I have pictured above which is just laying on the floor of the truck right now (as I haven't figured how to mount it the way I want to mount it).
> 
> I'm really at a loss at this point as to what to do with this thing. A good chassis ground should have solved the issue if it was the fact that I had grounded the amps/360 direct to the battery. If it was the 360, the Levi wouldn't put the noise through if I just directly connected to it. But given that the stock HU will play music out of test speakers without producing that noise and it is only when the stock HU is connected to an aftermarket piece of audio equipment that it makes the noise, there either has to be a grounding issue at the head unit or it, for some reason, will not send clean signal to anything but speakers... which I don't understand how it would know the difference.
> 
> I was running a couple JBL amps before just to have music. Might as well throw one back in and see what happens, but I bet I'll just get noise with less SQ... haha.


Other then testing a known good oem hu there isn't much I can think of other then it has something to due with the internals of the hu. Be it corrosion, leaking part, solder point. Even though you can't hear the noise when you hook up a speaker directly off the hu doesn't mean there isn't any. Amps going to amplify what's in the signal. That includes noise. 

So the question is:

Take out the oem look and use a aftermarket hu or test some more with a different oem hu?

Aftermarket you know will produce a cleaner source. It doesn't look as nice and iirc you saying due to integration of the vehicle makes it much harder to work in the aftermarket unit. 

May have to do the extra work, to make it work. Pardon any auto correction


----------



## sirbOOm

It's a 6-month old truck, I should hope it doesn't have a bad HU... 

I just don't want to order up the Alpine dash kit and 8" if that won't solve the problem. Was hoping to hold off on that ridiculously expensive buy until next year.


----------



## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> It's a 6-month old truck, I should hope it doesn't have a bad HU...
> 
> I just don't want to order up the Alpine dash kit and 8" if that won't solve the problem. Was hoping to hold off on that ridiculously expensive buy until next year.


Age means nothing anymore. Well the aftermarket hu solved your issue didn't it? Other the complete utter bad luck I don't think you will have an issue with the alpine unit. Am I correct?

Buy authorized

Trust me I feel for you. I had bought 3 amps at one point and they went south, out of warranty and I huge loss on my part. 

Maybe for now you could temp wire in the Clarion


----------



## sirbOOm

Ok. Here's a new scoopy. 

I put the JBL amp I've got back in. No noise. 

I'm wondering if maybe it is the 360! When I get home I'm gonna put just the Levi in, no 360. I always had the 360 getting power even when I bypassed it I think so maybe if I just don't have it plugged in the issue might go away. 

Crossing fingers. Guess I'll have to spring for a different processor if it's the bloody 360. Mother of jeebus!!! Can't get a break with this system man. Haha.


----------



## REGULARCAB

What makes you think ots not the Levi? You already pulled the 360 and had noise running straight to the levi


----------



## sirbOOm

Better not be the Levi. Bought it from a forum member. Never used until almost a year later. Sat in the box except shortly after I got it I hooked it up to see how it sounded for about 10 min. Last I need is to have been sold a defective amp or for this thing to have dumped on me for no reason. That'd be a pain. If it really is the Levi I think I'll just get it fixed I guess.


----------



## Golden Ear

REGULARCAB said:


> What makes you think ots not the Levi? You already pulled the 360 and had noise running straight to the levi


That's what I was thinking. I've heard of lots of problems with those amps, just do a search. I have a 360 in my truck and I have a floor noise issue right now. I know your noise is different but if you find that it is the 360 I may have to examine mine a lot closer. 

Thanks for posting all your troubleshooting for others to learn from!


----------



## sirbOOm

That was the first series that had all the issues. I have the third. Supposedly they're fine. But about to test now. Be back in an hour or so. Flipping wiring around is a *****.


----------



## REGULARCAB

I hate trouble shooting with a passion. Installing is fun as hell, problems drive me nuts. Feel for ya man.


----------



## sirbOOm

Well, well, well... it just may be the Levi!!!! Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu


So here's what I did. Hooked up the Clarion to same + and - as the amp. Used the Clarions remote turn on too just to eliminate my in car turn on wire as the culprit (which is probably not possible). Volume all the way down, gains at 1/4 and guess what I hear? Weeerrrrrr weeeerrrr reeeerrrr. It's really quiet compared to when the 360 is in line because I had the levels up on it and the gains down on the Levi (use one or the other...). Quiet but it's there. 

Two more test up next. Reground to the chassis to see what happens. Then, if still noise, hook up the 360 + JBL amp just to see what happens. 

Damn you a Scuba Steve!!


----------



## REGULARCAB

I tried to find an emoji that adequately depicted the sadness that comes from a dead leviathan... There isn't one


----------



## sirbOOm

And the Levi has a tremendous noise floor - ssssshhhhhhhh no matter what gain underlying the weerr rererr sound. I'm not going to bother taking off the cover to see if anything is burnt out because my circuit board skills are limited to replacing capacitors on Samsung TV with a soldering iron, haha. Wouldn't know what I'm looking at.

Not sure how to approach this with Steve at ZED. I've heard two descriptions of him: old crusty-sounding man who thinks you're always wrong or the nicest, most helpful guy in the world. I hope I get the latter version of this legendary amp builder! Maybe I'll point him to this post - most of what I've done to try and find this issue is posted here so hopefully I can avoid the tech support-style troubleshooting stuff (sir, is the computer plugged in?). Hah...

The 360+JBL amp does not have any noise. Levi is the culprit, confirmed. So glad I have an extra amp around to diagnose with... what a relief.

Oh, and in this process, I threw in the SI sub hooked up to my Minotaur which seems to be working fine. I couldn't get much voltage/gain to it because I was daisy chaining off of the JBL amp's pre-amp output and it was getting high-level signal but with what I could tell, I think I'm going to be okay with this sub. It blended very well with the Pioneer midbass at 80Hz and down on whatever dB slope the Minotaur crosses at. I also tried out a Morel Ultimo 12" that needs a recone (voice coil is rattling; works but you can hear the rattling when it's working... just my luck, $1K sub + $1K amp needing repair). The Morel and the SI sounded in effect the same - again, next to nothing for volume coming out of it but turn it off and you notice the loss of bass regardless. I would say the Morel Ultimo 12" is thus far my second favorite sub (closely behind IDQ v.2's which have yet to be dethroned for me, even by all the other's best that I've had the opportunity to hear) and I need a flat sub that sounds either like the Morel or IDQs... I think the SI is going to fit the bill just fine - maybe even sound better. SI was just sitting on the ground facing up behind the driver seat in a prefab .6 cf sealed box that looks like absolute crap and the place that mad it should be ashamed of themselves for selling this... sticks out from under the seats like am amateur box builder (me) built it. Pitiful... but that's what you get for cheap, hahahaha.


----------



## gckless

sirbOOm said:


> And the Levi has a tremendous noise floor - ssssshhhhhhhh no matter what gain underlying the weerr rererr sound. I'm not going to bother taking off the cover to see if anything is burnt out because my circuit board skills are limited to replacing capacitors on Samsung TV with a soldering iron, haha. Wouldn't know what I'm looking at.
> 
> Not sure how to approach this with Steve at ZED. I've heard two descriptions of him: old crusty-sounding man who thinks you're always wrong or the nicest, most helpful guy in the world. I hope I get the latter version of this legendary amp builder! Maybe I'll point him to this post - most of what I've done to try and find this issue is posted here so hopefully I can avoid the tech support-style troubleshooting stuff (sir, is the computer plugged in?). Hah...
> 
> The 360+JBL amp does not have any noise. Levi is the culprit, confirmed. So glad I have an extra amp around to diagnose with... what a relief.
> 
> Oh, and in this process, I threw in the SI sub hooked up to my Minotaur which seems to be working fine. I couldn't get much voltage/gain to it because I was daisy chaining off of the JBL amp's pre-amp output and it was getting high-level signal but with what I could tell, I think I'm going to be okay with this sub. It blended very well with the Pioneer midbass at 80Hz and down on whatever dB slope the Minotaur crosses at. I also tried out a Morel Ultimo 12" that needs a recone (voice coil is rattling; works but you can hear the rattling when it's working... just my luck, $1K sub + $1K amp needing repair). The Morel and the SI sounded in effect the same - again, next to nothing for volume coming out of it but turn it off and you notice the loss of bass regardless. I would say the Morel Ultimo 12" is thus far my second favorite sub (closely behind IDQ v.2's which have yet to be dethroned for me, even by all the other's best that I've had the opportunity to hear) and I need a flat sub that sounds either like the Morel or IDQs... I think the SI is going to fit the bill just fine - maybe even sound better. SI was just sitting on the ground facing up behind the driver seat in a prefab .6 cf sealed box that looks like absolute crap and the place that mad it should be ashamed of themselves for selling this... sticks out from under the seats like am amateur box builder (me) built it. Pitiful... but that's what you get for cheap, hahahaha.


When I talked to him he was pretty helpful, so good luck lol.

I had to send my Levi in twice. First time it was a loose solder joint, from the factory. Just totally shut off. Second time it would cycle on/off really fast, like 5-6 times a second. This turned out to be a leaky capacitor. Both times I wasn't charged for repair, and the place I bought it from (Vertex Audio, they are awesome) paid for my shipping.

It's been fine the year I've had it since then.


----------



## Golden Ear

Sorry to hear about the amp. Glad it's not the processor. Good luck with Zed!


----------



## sirbOOm

Yeah, me too. I know how to use the Fosgate. They're all more or less the same but I just am familiar with it. Can't say I'm even a remotely good tuner (especially with an active 3-way) but... yeah. Although, I'm sure it'll cut out on me, too - seems to be some bad karma in my garage. Certainly not me... I'm an angel.


----------



## sirbOOm

Just tried calling ZED. He's at the doctor right now so can't talk... didn't know I was calling a cell phone.


----------



## Golden Ear

I have 1 (805) 526-5315 programmed into my phone from my unpleasant dealings with him. Is that the one on the site?


----------



## sirbOOm

Yes, but the new number is (805) 499-5559 - this is what the automated operator provided.

A woman answered with something like "Hello, this is..." - couldn't hear very well. Maybe it was Joyce? Anyway, she asked how she could help. I was explaining the issue and eventually she asked me to hold on and handed the phone to Steve. I didn't know him and his ?business partner/wife? weren't American; sounded German or Austrian. Guess it goes with the last name!

Anyway he said they were at the doctor's office and to call him in a couple of hours.

I'm going to call him around 4PM my time and see what the plan will be to get this pup in tip top shape again.


----------



## bkjay

I believe he is South African.


----------



## sirbOOm

Hahahaha... well, could be that, too. I have Sprint...


----------



## sirbOOm

Been eyeballing Fosgate's mini POWER amplifiers for an alternative if the ZED won't fit - still don't know FOR SURE if that bugger will fit back there, haha. Should but...


----------



## sirbOOm

Talked to Steve. We did a test I probabky did but don't remember doing so purposely. We turn the amp on without any RCA's going into it. He said that that essentially will replicate the amp being bench tested at his lab more or less. I did still get the noise. Thus he said it must be something wrong with the clock. I have no idea what that is but hopefully that is the case I haven't been hearing things and indeed the leviathan is bad. I think I'm also going to have him look at my Minotaur just because it will be essentially inaccessible once it's installed behind the rear seats. I think it's fine but frankly I'm willing to pay money to not have to take those damned seats out again.


----------



## optimaprime

Damn man what bummer .you said mini rf amps look at the mini diamond amps there pretty !


----------



## sirbOOm

What I need is a lottery ticket.


----------



## sirbOOm

The Leviathan is in the mail to Stephen at ZED. I put $1K insurance on it (which apparently only costs $9) and that resulted in me having to bring the box all the way to a UPS corporate customer drop point, not a UPS store. Annoying, but understandable. I figure it takes 3-4 days to get there, then I wait and see what comes out of this. I really hope he isn't busy so that he can crack it open and fix it for me right quick, but I'm not banking on it. I'm going to guestimate like 4-5 weeks so I don't get to worried. Hopefully he doesn't call me and say "nope, nothing is wrong with it" and then I have to go fishing again for that damn noise.

In the mean time, I really need to put back together the interior of my car before the last week of October starts so I got a line on some NIB Soundstream Tarantula Nano amplifiers - their 2-channel and 5-channel. I will probably need to rewire the SI sub down to 2-ohm instead of 8 (which is how it'll be presented to the Minotaur). I'm interested to see how these sound, actually. It'll be 85 wattages to my tweeties and midliciouses and then the 2-channel will shove 200 wattonies into the midbasses. Should be alright, and, according to this post these might be the same or pretty close to Hertz amplifiers, which are above average IMO (the Hertz ones, at least, get really hot IME). Once my ZED amps are back, I'll probably be throwing these Soundstreams up on the classifieds - I'll do a review, too. Why not.


----------



## sirbOOm

Well apparently the address on ZED's website is 10 months out of date. Luckily I sent Stephen an email with the tracking number and address I sent it to otherwise it would have been delivered to the location they were at 10 months ago. Why people do not update their websites is beyond me... but I was able to put an intercept on it and get it delivered (hopefully) to the right location.


----------



## REGULARCAB

Lol what a **** storm, at least you are able to intercept it.


----------



## sirbOOm

Well, we'll see. UPS says they'll charge me for the intercept IF (IF IF IF) the shipment is redirected.


----------



## Darkrider

sirbOOm said:


> Well, we'll see. UPS says they'll charge me for the intercept IF (IF IF IF) the shipment is redirected.


*"IF"?!?!?*

With $1k insurance, they might want to think hard about that intercept....

Nick,

I have a RF Power T800-4AD you could borrow if you need. Lots of power in a pretty small footprint, and it sounded great in my Camaro before I swapped to the Mosconi's.

How many channels do you need total? I have an old RF Punch Power 50.2 that works great on tweeters, mids, subs.....basically anything. It is one of the amps that had the Audiophile bypass mode.

I know it's not an optimal solution, but it was an idea I had.


----------



## sirbOOm

The insurance probably becomes null with an intercept - fine print, no doubt.

I need 6 full-range channels. I love those old RF Power amps, those looked so cool. I have some Soundstream Tarantula Nano amps (apparently same as/similar to Hertz amps) I'm going to pickup tomorrow to cover me for a bit - got a deal on 'em. Hopefully they're okay - hell, maybe I'll just leave them. I'd be concerned about borrowing because I don't have an amp rack on the wall yet so they'd be sitting attached to a piece of wood on the floor and I already gave my Minotaur a scratch... the last I need is to scratch your amps. Although, if all fails, I may buy that T800 from you if you're selling.  Thanks again.


----------



## REGULARCAB

Plus he bricked a leviathan and that has to be 7 years bad luck or something lol


----------



## sirbOOm

REGULARCAB said:


> Plus he bricked a leviathan and that has to be 7 years bad luck or something lol


Who's he? I just plugged the bloody thing in.

You just watch - Stephen will call me and say nothing is wrong with it. You just watch.


----------



## Darkrider

sirbOOm said:


> The insurance probably becomes null with an intercept - fine print, no doubt.
> 
> I need 6 full-range channels. I love those old RF Power amps, those looked so cool. I have some Soundstream Tarantula Nano amps (apparently same as/similar to Hertz amps) I'm going to pickup tomorrow to cover me for a bit - got a deal on 'em. Hopefully they're okay - hell, maybe I'll just leave them. I'd be concerned about borrowing because I don't have an amp rack on the wall yet so they'd be sitting attached to a piece of wood on the floor and I already gave my Minotaur a scratch... the last I need is to scratch your amps. Although, if all fails, I may buy that T800 from you if you're selling.  Thanks again.


The Power 50.2 is one of those old ones (like 98-99 era - silver with the black end caps, not gold) - can you even scratch those? The Power T800-4AD is one of the newer ones and I already put a scratch on the plastic top part on it. I'll probably bring them with me to the Fall GTG - you can take a look yourself and see if you like em. They're great amps, but I have pretty much Mosconi'ed myself to the max at this point.

Good luck man - I have had my share of issues with my Cruze install. My current issue is trying to figure out how to mount 2 x AS200.4's in what is left of my trunk.

I look forward to demoing your truck at the meet.


----------



## sirbOOm

Let's cross fingers that I have something to demo...

No, you could not damage the old Power series with a bloody nuclear bomb. They were physically bullet proof and electronically good enough. Their shape, though, took up all kinds of space. You can line up Mosconi's for yards at a 50x1 wattage ratio to those RFs... haha.


----------



## sirbOOm

Backup amps will be in my hands tomorrow. I will be rigging them up for a listen by Sunday. Have to finish changing out the cam chain tensioners on my Harley first - preventative maintenance, old ones looked good for 26K miles but still worn. Have been getting an low oil pressure warning for a couple seconds after startup which didn't happen before and those are usually the first culprit, so I'm told. Ridiculously bad design by Harley... bean counter move. All cams on Harleys should be gear drive... and there should only be ONE DAMN CAM, but now I'm mouthing off again. Aftermarket oil pump and cam plate look good. Just need to get me some o-rings and a gasket and I'll throw it all together. Let me tell you, adjustable pushrods are great and all, but take for FING EVER to put in and... adjust. Uuuuug!


----------



## sirbOOm

Mother of Jeebus can I get a break?!

One of the backup amps I picked up today (Soundstream TN5.950D) makes noise from the left channels (no RCA's hooked up yet). Switch right speaker wires into the left terminals and the problem switches sides. The other amp (Soundstream TN2.600) does not produce this noise. I will be trying out Pioneer's passives using the TN2.600 hooked to the tweeter and midbass now for sounds... will be interesting to see how the 2-way Stage 4 set would have sounded in my car if I wasn't going 3-way active.

It's like I have bad car audio karma or something... unbelievable.


----------



## REGULARCAB

REGULARCAB said:


> Plus he bricked a leviathan and that has to be 7 years bad luck or something lol


Just saying bro


----------



## sirbOOm

Yeah... I'm screwed. 

So about the Stage 4 two way with passives... it sucks. Maybe if the tweeter was closer to the mid but in my car... notable loss of vocal clarity without a midrange. Disappointing. Great detail from that tweeter though, liking it more and more. It's the mid, I don't think it's well suited to a 2-way. Could be my baffles which I've decided to redo - they're basically a tube cuz of the stacked adapter rings and I think maybe that's why it's peaky and muddy around 250-400. No wonder they were giving away that midrange.


----------



## sirbOOm

I wacked myself in the head at Sound Sensations today when I realized that at least I have enough amplifiers/channels to put together a full active 3-way. Somehow I forgot about the little JBL GTO504-EZ sitting on the shelf.

So put a makeshift situation together, as you can see in these photos:

























See the rear driver wheel of the '68 Lincon? 

Whipped everything together - looks like final product, huh? Pffffff... it doesn't move when I'm driving (velcro under the amp rack; SI BM mkIV in a .6 cf box wedged in place by bolts sticking up from the floor), so that's a plus.

So... how does it sound? First of all... no alien spacecraft noises. Not a one. Almost no voltage drop as measured with a fluke when the car is on or off. Now... I am running the sub's coils in series (8-ohm but measures to be about 6/6.5-ohm; see photos way back of me DMM'ing it). Here's my thoughts:

1) I was able to time align easier this time. I don't know why; probably having learned from the first situation. 
2) The RF 360.3 found distortion in the head unit much earlier this time (about halfway volume). The only real difference this time is I was summing the front and rear signal, which is unnecessary but I did it to see what the rear signal looked like, yada yada. Not entirely sure why it found distortion sooner (last time I could go all but a few clicks back from max) but whatever because the distortion I heard around 250Hz isn't there no mo. I'd really rather be able to use the head unit's volume because the 360's remote for volume SUCKS... it basically has about 8 levels - dead silent . . . . . . top volume. Dumb... I didn't pay attention much the last time but the 360 also found a ridiculous dip at 500 Hz in the stock signal (which I think is because of me summing the rear speakers; they have a different EQ situation going on). The 360 upped almost no frequencies with any significance but jacked up 500 Hz to give me a "flat" output. I'll have to experiment with that a bit... that's just goofy stuff.
3) Either my Minotaur is ALSO bad (like the Leviathan, purchased used on the forum here), it doesn't like 8-ohm loads, or the SI BK mkIV does not like the Minotaur because (mind you, no notable voltage drop, the amp will flip on/off if the gain is too high on either the 360 or the amp itself and the sub will make goofy clicking/bottoming noise. I nipped that in the bud right quick - the sub is fine. I didn't notice this at all with the 12" Morel Ultimo in, I think, a 1.5 cf box, presenting a 4-ohm load to the amp so I'm hoping the amp is fine and instead it has some sort of protection that knows when the sub isn't happy... I don't know. Not sure what wattages it's putting out at the ohm load its being presenting with... didn't get there; didn't crank the gain much at all. Left the amp at minimum gain and the 360 at about 3/4 and I could get to full volume without this happening and no audible distortion. It's too bad that that Soundstream 5-channel was DOA. I wanted to re-wire the SI sub's coils in parallel. The Soundstream is capable of 400 at 2-ohm so I'd run it at a safe low gain vs. whatever the Minotaur, which is capable of 1300 watts at 2-ohm, 700 at 4-ohm, and [mystery] at 8-ohm... guessing maybe 350 to 500 watts cold have crossed the wire as these Minotaurs are overbuilt.
4) Now, from what I can tell so far about this SI sub: 1st, it is smooth. It is butter smooth. So smooth the only time I really knew it was there was with a rap beat. I'm not used to that - I spend my sub installation time with usually different types of subwoofers from Planet Audio garbage to JL W6/W7's generally oriented for someone who is trying to crush their skull (on a budget, of course) so... nice change of pace to have something that naturally and purposefully blends. It time aligned with everything fairly well though I'm no expert and time aligning a sub - I can time align a front stage okay (keyword) but don't have easy luck with bringing a sub into the mix without somewhere to start from; so we'll see - need some practice. But anywho, very nice sub - wouldn't call it desirable for rap-type music just yet but I'm taking everything I didn't like with a grain of salt until I DMM test the output of this Minotaur and figure out what I'm dealing with... like 3AM right now. Box doesn't seem to have any leaks and is a teeny bit big. Because the box is so small one could think that it'd be a one note speaker but it's not... it's defying physics. It does almost every note flat... I did not pick up anything standing out in any of a number of songs I was playing, probably earning myself a lecture from a neighbor tomorrow. Very nice. I will be honest, I do want the sub to hit a little harder; I don't feel it so much. I know that's not "how it's supposed to be" per say but that is what I want. And in the one other vehicle I heard this thing in (mounted up front) it hit the chest just fine... so it can. God I hope that Minotaur is not having issues - that'd be two bad ZEDs bought on this forum... can't be.
5) Super de duper confirmed that, yes, the Pioneer Stage 4 *passive two way* is, well, junk (to me, in my car, with my current situation)... it needs that midrange like a fat kid needs cake. My vocals came back and present and full and sweet (and in need of some tuning) bringing it into the mix again... thank the baby jeebus. If you've ever listened to Plumb (good tuning songs, well recorded) her voice is right where the Stage 4 two way (with the passives) misses; the midrange recreates her voice with excellence.
6) The Soundstream 2-channel amp is not bad... in fact I'd say it's doing a great job. The JBL 504EZ? Well, it's amplifying, that's for sure. I have no concerns about loss of detail or anything of the sort - the tweeters and midranges sound good. But it is the culprit for some notably floor noise - hssssssss. I just think it's not suited for the situation at hand; better to just run some coaxials with it direct off a head unit RCA. Maybe all of that will go away when I re-run setup on the 360 to screw around with the input signal and see what changes; maybe I got unlucky. Or maybe it's the 360... that'd just be my luck, wouldn't it?! I didn't notice noise from it before when it was alone just powering the 2-way or in a couple other setups; dead silence. So we'll see what the deal is here... I'm guessing, for starters, it doesn't so much appreciate the 8v signal (potential) that the 360 will spit out (I do not have the level to the max on the 360 but I also didn't try reducing that 500 hz jack up it did, which might be the problem).
7) Finalizing wiring on this is going to be time consuming. SO MANY WIRES! Haha.

So I'm going to run what I got until my Minotaur comes back, experiment with a different amplifier or two on the SI sub ("borrow" a few amps from friends, etc.) and see what happens with it... also to help diagnose if that Minotaur has issues. Grrrr. 

Also going to spend a lot of time Sunday (today) doing a more profesh job of setting levels/gains on each amp. I have a DD-1 so maybe I'll see what that has to say; gonna see what actual V output is coming out of the 360's RCAs at varying levels, and, of course, experiment with tuning to see what sort of improvements I can swing on my own. As of right now, it's bit bright and narrow but I gots me a center stage that I've not yet achieved in any active 3-way build I've done already after like 30 min. of f'ing with the time alignment. This time I started with the tweeter vs. midrange and that worked for me... made tying everyone else together much better (though it makes no sense why, you align more with level with a tweeter... maybe I'm just justifying that it was easier to align this way with unrelated reasons). Uuuuhcourse I forgot that I had the sub in the back (cuz, really, the thing sounds like its not there... but there's bass) so I had to goof around with timing until I got somewhat close to hearing bass from the front. Honestly don't know how much better I can get it because the sub where it sits is literally the same distance from my ear as is the midrange/tweeters give or take an inch or two so no idea what to do there right now. Gonna do some reading up from ErinH's stuff and other tricks.

Oh, and after setting everything up and before setting the SI sub's crossover, I ran the SI sub full range for a few min. Arguably, that thing could probably be a sub/midbass combo on its own if you could have two on each side of the car up front somewhere. Never heard so much "non sub stuff" from a subwoofer before so cleanly reproduced. Did the bongs on my car like it was made for it... haha.

I'm happy I have an active system right now with no crapped out amplifiers to speak of. Now I can do something productive vs. sit and wait. And have tunes. It bothers me immensely that I have three different brands of amplifiers with three HUGELY different asthetics... I'm OCD about the same model line, same brand for amplifiers and if I could afford Mosconi or other brands that make the casing so you can basically line them up right next to each other to make them look like one big amp... I'd be doing that, haha.


----------



## Black Rain

Hey Nick, you mentioned thqt your 360 found certain frequency issues. How is it that you are getting those readings off of it? I have tried looking for that feature and just cant seem to access it.


----------



## sirbOOm

What do you mean? How did I know that it found, for example, a dip at 500 Hz? If that is the question, when you go through setup it does auto-leveling on track 1 and then it does [forget name of it] on track 2 of the CD, the latter of which is only done when you do high-level inputs. It basically sums and figures out what EQ adjustments it needs to do to give me as close to a flat baseline as possible. Two ways I know what it found: (1) the graphs during that track 2 step, once finished, show on a frequency plot what my input response is and (2) I can see the EQ adjustments it made to compensate for any dips or jumps in frequency response that the stock head unit does. To see the graphs you have to click "Read Results" for the input - it doesn't show anything unless you tell it to show you the results after that flattening process is completed.


----------



## Black Rain

Ok so its only allowable if you are using the HighLevel inputs? It wont allow this if using RCAs? So I guess I'd need an RTA to see this?


----------



## sirbOOm

You still need an RTA to flatten out your actual in car response at the driver seat. The 360 just flattens the input signal, not necessarily what you actually here. So... nothing to worry about, really. I guess RF assumes you're using an aftermarket deck with RCAs which puts out a totally flat signal anyway, unless it's something cheap or fancy pants.


----------



## sirbOOm

Well... shtypants! The Minotaur is either a week little bich (doubt it... people use these in SPL cars) or it's got something wrong with it. I can't even get it to light up the first orange peak output light without it making the sub go nuts. I put the JBL sub amp I have in there and I swear I can jack that thing up to kingdom come and it doesn't whine at all. I tried my 4 ohm Morel Ultimo 12 this time. I'm bloody pissed. Two bad ZEDs bought on this forum. Have to say, this now makes me second guess buying used. Especially ZEDs, I guess... This is the first time I hooked up the Minotaur II to a sub (I made sure it turned on when I got it but that's it) and the Leviathan I put in my last truck for about 20 min just to see if it worked but wasn't paying attention to noise... ran some speakers off of it for only a few min with music playing the whole time. I really hope I'm just doing something wrong (but I install amps all the time and never have the issues I'm having... ever; even Lanzar, Power Acoustik, Best Buy special stuff that people bring in). I don't think I'm over driving the Ultimo. The bloody thing eats up 1000 watts for breakfast and I have the gains set conservatively (actually, at their lowest setting and the 360 level at -20 out of 0 to -40) and I can get clean sound from the jbl and not from the Minotaur it just starts flipping on off and making the sub go crazy. I swear if that ZED blows a Morel Ultimo I'm going to strap it to a tree, point an AR-15 at it, and pull the trigger... maybe a little enraged right now. Haha.

I put a stinger voltage meter in in the power source. The voltage doesn't budge except maybe .1 or .2 if I'm pushing it. All copper welding or stinger wire 4 awg wire. Shouldn't have issues with that. 

I have to say... I'm at my witts end with these ZEDs and getting there with this stereo build. What the hell?!!!!

Maybe tomorrow I'll hookup my Clarion HU and see if I can make this Minotaur do the same thing with a signal direct from an RCA from a head unit vs. coming from the 360. I have to think that it's probably pretty hard to f-up a Minotaur and that I wasn't taken by the seller and instead something in the signal is wrong - benefit of the doubt - so I'm going to try this. Plus, might as well run the test as I'm going to have to explain what I did to test the amp to Steve. Two amps going to him from me - hell, if I were him, I'd be blaming me! You know what it's doing? It's doing the same thing a first gen Alpine PDX mono amp was doing that a customer brought in installed in his vehicle. He said it just started popping when it turned on (Minotaur doesn't do that... so not that part) but we benched it and even at the lowest gain it wanted to brick an Alpine Type X subwoofer (Type X... the big one) making it bottom out like my Ultimo and SI sub was subjected to for a second (had my hand on the volume knob...). That guy's Alpine sub survived an amp that would send an arc from the speaker wire to the terminal on the speaker box BEFORE it touched the speaker box terminal. That PDX was toast. Looked brand new inside of it.


The 360 doesn't seem to be having any errors whatsoever (thankfully). I'm finding minor limitations or glitches (really, slowness) in the software annoying lately but I'll live. For example, I really hate how it turns off the remote when you're using the software because the software based remote is slow and constantly resets the subwoofer level. I know why it's doing that but it's not intuitive. I want to crank up the subwoofer knob to max, then I want to tune the amp to it and the subs safe max, then I know that is as high as I can go. I know it's not that simple necessarily when you can tune individual frequencies and so forth but in general... I want the sub level knob maxed out and the amp/sub itself maxed out at the same point. The software, once I close the virtual remote, resets the virtual remote to the same level I have in the main window. Again, I know what it's doing, but it doesn't leave me confidence that if I turn up the bass knob on the remote that I'm not going PAST a safe threshold that I tuned. That's the biggest annoyance. Sometimes the software gets stuck "reading settings" from the 360 on the splash screen. Had to restart my computer once to clear that up, but I'd bet that's my computer more than the software as I never had that happen when running the software on a virtual machine on my mac. The trackpad on it went bonkers so I don't use it anymore... too much to get it fixed. 

Not to mention, after I put the intercept on the Leviathan on its way to Steve it has sat in a UPS distribution center on Doraville, GA for DAYS. If it doesn't make progress soon...


----------



## sirbOOm

If my replacement Soundstream amp sounds fine, I'm going to just go with these Soundstreams, I think. Not a huge fan of amps with a damn spider light on them but they are the PERFECT size (not TALL/less than 2" depth) and so far the 2-channel hasn't made me think anything bad of it other than it delays turn on about a second slower than the other two amps so my midbasses don't come on for a teeny bit... no big deal. If I do that I'll get the Minotaur fixed and get rid of it and the Leviathan and say goodbye to that fiasco.


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## claydo

Damn man.....lots of amp trouble for ya.....sorry bout that. Ya gotta get this thing playing by november.......


----------



## Darkrider

Nick - that is some seriously rough luck man. Did you date an actual witch once that may have put a curse on you?

Hope the replacement nano amp works out for you.


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## sirbOOm

Yeah... we'll see.


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## pjc

Good luck with the amp situation. Frustrating when it comes to troubleshooting. 

And props for listening to Plumb. Good stuff actually.


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## sirbOOm

Boys don't cry...


----------



## sirbOOm

My Leviathan has reached Cali. Should be delivered tomorrow. I'll call for an ETA on Thursday or Friday, perhaps learn how much it'll cost me to fix it. I'll wait until I get the Leviathan back and repaired and working before sending the Minotaur. I don't put all of my cards into one basket... just don't feel comfortable doing that.


----------



## sirbOOm

So I realized that my prefab box for the SI sub fits up front in the passenger footwell. 

In the words of that Soundman guy, "Hot damn!"

I guess this is the sweet spot in my truck for bass. Hopefully I can get close with it in the back but wow. The only complaint I have is that it doesn't hit the chest like the Ultimo 12 does but it's close and better at pretty much everything else in this location. Too bad there's no real way to put the sub there without either blocking the right midbass or losing feet space. I'm gonna leave it there until I get my ZEDs working (grrrrrr) and the JBL amp seems to love the job at 8 ohms... it seems like a really perfect match... very very smooth, deep, controlled, and blends pretty good with no attempt at tuning the sub channel yet with the 360 (how I'll do that I have no idea). Bass comes from up front but putting it there moved the midbass and lower vocals to the right of the windshield a bit do maybe I'll try time alignment adjustments and see what happens. Impressive... I've never heard such buttery bass in a pickup cabin before. 

I'm going to try and mount my amp rack this weekend. That'll allow me to put the plastic panels and sound blocking back before my end of month road trip so I don't pull my hair out hearing the damn exhaust and road noise. The 5.3 V8 in my 2011 Silverado sounded better than the new 5.3 in my 2014. This V8 or at least the stock exhaust makes a sort of turbo spool whine mixed with running nails across a chalkboard sound apparently around where my sound blocking is missing... there's a cat and muffler about right there. Just drives me nuts cuz it's one of those sounds that, well, drives me nuts. We all have em...

Steve has my Levi according to UPS. I've sick and out from work mostly in bed past couple days thanks to some kind of allergic or compensation reaction to Benydryl which I took the night before as I'm apparently allergic to ragweed. Who'd a thunk? Basically almost dropped to the floor at work, guy I work with put me in a chair, I was escorted to the nearest clinic. Feeling fine now but having some heart flutters and got hives and the doctor says my blood pressure was through the freakin roof and must have been even worse when I was at work. Nice. Said it can't be just from Benydryl. Explained to him about **** going on right now including (me over worrying) about my amps, parents getting divorced, etc. so now that I'm 30 I guess I'm no longer resilient to stress like I was before. Awesomesauce. Gonna start being one if those eat natural dickheads now... dammit.


----------



## sirbOOm

I got my replacement backup Soundstream 5 channel today. I had a pretty alright tune with the JBL amp and putting this Soundstream in made everything a bit honky and what center stage I did have drifted. Anyone that says amps don't sound any different is nuts. Interesting differences. The JBL was better IMO. The sub channel on it is acceptable even at just 8 ohm though. I haven't really tried hard setting gains and all that jazz so adjustments will help I think. Weird though because this Soundstream is supposed to be doing 85 watts and the JBL 50 watts but I had to up the gains more on the Soundstream to get the same output... nutty for an amp that's supposed to be essentially a Hertz 5 channel. 

Well. I'm gonna spend some time tonight trying to mount the amp rack using elevator bolts JB Welded to the wall like another Silverado build log on the forum (straight stole that idea). Of course it's the hardest bloody way to do it but I want to be able to remove the amp rack and in a double cab I'm not confident I can do a metal frame so the elevator boots will be set through hollow metal tubes in drilled holes in the wood then the wood amp rack will be bolted to the elevator bolts using big washers. Should work, just lining up the damn bolts and then getting them set will be a total ***** and a half. I've been avoiding it. 

I'll just screw in the Soundstreams and put my seats back in hopefully by Thursday if all goes to plan, then spend the rest of my free time before the trip I have coming up attempting to get a tolerable tune. Then just sitting and waiting for my ZED amps to come back. I was thinking maybe I'd keep the Soundstreams but first impression on the 5 channel wasn't as good as I needed it to be. So prolly will indeed put those ZEDs in. 

Gonna call Mantz now and see what's up. Haven't heard from him since he received the Leviathan last Wednesday so I'm gonna get an ETA at least.


----------



## sirbOOm

Okay just had a great call with Steve. He's planning on getting to it in a couple days and having it in the mail to me end of the week. That means I MIGHT have the ZEDs in for the NC meet which sort of negates any benefit of putting my cabin back together this week. Just gonna mount the amp rack, modify the OEM sound blocking, add some of my own, and put up the Soundstreams. I've returned to hopeful. Was nervous sending that amp across the country to the "country" of California.

And if anyone wants to know, he moved his factory 10 months ago basically to be closer to home. He drives 6 minutes to work. It takes me 45-1 hour to get to my job and 1 hour no traffic to get to Sound Sensations. Fuuuuuudge I'm jealous. But this guy (me) needs a big garage... can't find that in the city or near it for a price I'm willing to pay.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

It would be nice to get the Zeds right and base our setup all around those amps. Physically they are some of the best looking amps out there. But they have been hit or miss here on the firm, generally based off which generation you get.

I have considered getting a couple of them, then send them in and get them upgraded or what ever needs to be done and off I go.

Excited to see this turn out.


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## sirbOOm

I'm going to disagree that they are "good looking". The blue light, see through top, and gold everything really isn't a look I prefer - I'd rather have understated like Arc KS or JD HD or whatever. I didn't buy these for looks though. I'm not a show my amps kind of guy - these will be behind the rear seat, too, so out of sight and hopefully OUT OF MIND!

You shouldn't need to send in the latest generation ZED amps. The first generation versions were issue prone unfortunately. I bought both of mine (all latest version except now there is a Minotaur III) on the forum. I've since tracked down from whom I bought them from and haven't decided if I'm going to confront them or not because, frankly, it had been a long time between when I bought them and installed them and at this point. It's probably not worth it to - blame game city is what will happen. I sure didn't plan to have TWO bad amplifiers when I had the time to get the job done and now I'm well passed that window of opportunity waiting on repairs.

So far Stephen isn't much of a phone personality and isn't a "keep the customer updated" sorta guy but my last call with him was good and I hope to see my Leviathan in the mail by the end of this week, maybe early next week. I'm less concerned about the Minotaur as the JBL GTO 1001EZ amp is doing great with the SI BM mkIV right now.

I'm excited to see this turn out as well... if it ever does - goodness. I never use them nor do I ever really look at them but I want my m'fing back seats back in.


----------



## sirbOOm

Alright... the elevator bolt JB Welded to the back wall idea isn't working for me. I don't know why. Damn things just pop off and bring all the JB Weld with it which means it wasn't sticking to the back wall well.


----------



## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> I'm going to disagree that they are "good looking". The blue light, see through top, and gold everything really isn't a look I prefer - I'd rather have understated like Arc KS or JD HD or whatever. I didn't buy these for looks though. I'm not a show my amps kind of guy - these will be behind the rear seat, too, so out of sight and hopefully OUT OF MIND!
> 
> You shouldn't need to send in the latest generation ZED amps. The first generation versions were issue prone unfortunately. I bought both of mine (all latest version except now there is a Minotaur III) on the forum. I've since tracked down from whom I bought them from and haven't decided if I'm going to confront them or not because, frankly, it had been a long time between when I bought them and installed them and at this point. It's probably not worth it to - blame game city is what will happen. I sure didn't plan to have TWO bad amplifiers when I had the time to get the job done and now I'm well passed that window of opportunity waiting on repairs.
> 
> So far Stephen isn't much of a phone personality and isn't a "keep the customer updated" sorta guy but my last call with him was good and I hope to see my Leviathan in the mail by the end of this week, maybe early next week. I'm less concerned about the Minotaur as the JBL GTO 1001EZ amp is doing great with the SI BM mkIV right now.
> 
> I'm excited to see this turn out as well... if it ever does - goodness. I never use them nor do I ever really look at them but I want my m'fing back seats back in.


It will work out eventually. It has for me and many others who have had issues in the car audio world. Kinda sucks, I know I've been through it, but the final destination is SOOOO nice. I'm supper glade with the amps I have and the result is awesome. 

Keep a clear head, be patient, and you will be rewarded in the end.


----------



## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> Alright... the elevator bolt JB Welded to the back wall idea isn't working for me. I don't know why. Damn things just pop off and bring all the JB Weld with it which means it wasn't sticking to the back wall well.


Wow usually JB weld is great. Did you score the area your trying to adhere to? Sounds like it isn't biting.


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## sirbOOm

I did not score the area, which I will do this time. Just was hoping I didn't have to as that adds more work to ensure no exposed metal remians. It was like 45 degrees in my garage, too... I've personally not had good luck with JB Weld unless it was over 60 degrees outside... so I might try and space heat the area a bit or do it mid day.


----------



## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> I did not score the area, which I will do this time. Just was hoping I didn't have to as that adds more work to ensure no exposed metal remians. It was like 45 degrees in my garage, too... I've personally not had good luck with JB Weld unless it was over 60 degrees outside... so I might try and space heat the area a bit or do it mid day.


Ya if you don't score the area there isn't anything to bit when the JB weld is applied. Also the cold does effect its ability to adhere correctly. Heating the area before application (with a heat gun/hair dryer) and keeping the area warm would be ideal if your colder then recommended curing temp.


----------



## casey

Maybe use a hair dryer to heat the surface and even use the dryer on it after you add the catalyst to help it set up. 

Ive had my share of amp troubles and I know it sucks. I hope you get it resolved in a reasonable manner


----------



## sirbOOm

I have a fancy heat gun so I'll use that... it's yellow - that's what makes it fancy.


----------



## sirbOOm

Friday night I put the board on the back wall. 










I originally made one of MDF but it was concerningly flexible so I went and got some birch plywood that was far stiffer (and notably lighter). At the same time I decided to make some layered plywood furniture - give that a try! For another thread.

You see the blue tape on the top. That blue tape is covered up by plastic food wrap in the back so that the JB Weld that spreads past the elevator bolts does not stick to the wood. This allowed me to pull the panel off the wall using two handles that I screwed into the board. One bottom elevator bolt came off when I pulled the board but I resecured it and for all the bolts I put JB Weld around and on top of the flat part of the elevator bolt. It is very secure. On top, I made "L-brackets" (more like Z-brackets) to ensure the top does not want to pull from the wall as this is where a lot of weight will have the most gravitational effect when the big heavy ZEDs are in.

Now, I may carpet the board but I really don't care to. Instead, I think I will "carpet it" with Stinger Roadkill Carpet Pad which is very similar if not the same as Luxury Liner. This will ideally bridge the gap of lost sound blocking when I cut the factory jute and MLV barrier. 99.99999% of the noise in my truck - I've learned since doing this - is probably coming from the back wall (especially after my deadening and carpet pad applications) so I'd like to avoid letting any more in if I can.










Here's the Soundstream amps mounted up. I have holes and 10-32 tornado nuts placed out for the ZED amps already but these are just screwed in normal as they're temporary. Once I get finalized with my amps I'll deal with finishing the board.

I have like 100 feet of extra power wiring into the cabin it feels like and I now need to decide on final placement for my distribution block, cut wiring down, and get these temporary amps plugged in. Then I'd like to put my seats back in - hopefully by tonight.

My method of bringing the power wires into the cabin is making running the wire in the back area difficult but I've got a plan. Next time, I'd like to bring the wires up from the cabin floor or run wires inside the cabin instead of making life harder for myself. Part of me wanted to try the run wire outside of the truck experiment - I'll try and avoid that going forward. My welding wire is not as flexible as "car audio" 1/0 wire but pretty close... a little more flexibility would have helped but I just trust welding wire more.


----------



## optimaprime

That looks cool man ! I dig what you got going on here .


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## JoshHefnerX

I'm putting those TN amps in my car now, and am curious what you think about them vs Zed once you get them going.

Josh


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## sirbOOm

Compared to the ZED and even inexpensive JBL GTO EZ amplifiers, these TN amps are disappointing. The 2-channel is fine. The 5-channel made my music sound honky, not as easy to center, and less 3D / real / detailed. It was an apparent difference as I ran the JBL amplifier on the tweeter and midrange, then put in the 5-channel a few days ago. I've been able to get a nice center but the vocal range is tinny or a bit hollow.... just sounds like there's something in-between me and the speakers now. These won't last with me. On the plus side, the sub channel on the 5-channel is nice. The 2-channel, if you give it 4v input, does not distort even with the gain at maxium. With 4v, the 5-channel will distort on any channel at about 3/4 gain (all according to my DD-1).

I also have one hell of a noise floor... hisssssssss. I honestly think it's more to do (if not all to do) with my source being my stock radio with a mix of the RF 360.3. I had hiss with the JBL 4-channel, too (it was dead silent without the 360 in the mix). I have gains lower than they can go. I didn't get hiss the first time I setup the 360 so I must be doing something wrong.

These will hold me over until I find something else. I put my seats back in this evening so I have a whole car again for my trip. Leaving tomorrow. It is SO MUCH QUIETER with all my panels back on... very very silent in my car now... thank you jeebus.

As for my Leviathan - Stephen said he'd call me when it's done said probably end of the week. Didn't hear from him. I'm going to give him a ring Tuesday. If I don't have it back by about Friday the 31st, I probably won't have my ZEDs in for the meet and I'll have to suffer with "almost made it". Not much to show off. Ohwell. My Minotaur is out, too. Hell... I may just buy new amps..


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## sirbOOm

Well it looks like I'll have my Leviathan back on Wednesday! Stephen had to sync the power supply clock with the class D clock. I haven't the slightest idea what that means but as long as she's fixed, I'm happy. Unless he's put a bill in the box, he did it for free.

My Minotaur is still out but was just benched and passed every test exceeding power ratings. The problem I was having was not replicated. Maybe I was getting voltage drop but my VM wasn't showing it? We'll see when I try again installing it.

I'm really hoping to have both back in for the meet next weekend! Would rather demo (aka, shamelessly beg for tuning help) with the right amps in.


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## cwharris911

Just stopping by again to thank you for this build you are documenting, I just finished my system this weekend in my 2014 crew cab and it would not have turned out as clean if I had not found this thread. I used the plug that you found to pull the signal and am running through an LC7i using speed wire that I did not even know existed until I found this. I will definitely continue following your progress through the completion of your build, best of luck with your amps.


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## sirbOOm

I'll PM you my PayPal for the $1,000 fee I charge for my incredible knowledge.

(Post a build log!)


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## Dmack

I am sorry to post a question that's a bit of an aside from your build log, but I just took on a non-Bose MyLink 2014 Z71 as a side project and wanted to ask about the 360.3. 

The truck had a system installed at a local shop and, for a lack of a better work, it sounds atrocious--for several reason, but primary among these is the integration between the factory HU and the 360.3. I spoke to the installer, and he is very seasoned and knowledgeable, so I have no doubt that it was installed correctly. However, it was set up by the salesman who "went to school for this." 

The system has horrible floor hiss and output completely distorts to an unlistenable level above 1/3 volume. I have not torn into it yet, however, I attached the processor to my PC and reset the input levels. Unfortunately, this did little to mitigate the problem. Did you have any similar issues? If so, what have you done to fix this? Thanks.


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## sirbOOm

I have a ridiculous hiss too. Didn't the first time I configured the 360 so hoping I just goofed. The time I had no hiss was when it found distortion only one or two clicks below max volume. Now it finds distortion about 3/4 way up. Quirky. 

I don't know if it's the 360 yet or not. I will diagnose maybe this week cuz my ZED amps are back so it's worth doing now.


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## Darkrider

Dmack said:


> I am sorry to post a question that's a bit of an aside from your build log, but I just took on a non-Bose MyLink 2014 Z71 as a side project and wanted to ask about the 360.3.
> 
> The truck had a system installed at a local shop and, for a lack of a better work, it sounds atrocious--for several reason, but primary among these is the integration between the factory HU and the 360.3. I spoke to the installer, and he is very seasoned and knowledgeable, so I have no doubt that it was installed correctly. However, it was set up by the salesman who "went to school for this."
> 
> The system has horrible floor hiss and output completely distorts to an unlistenable level above 1/3 volume. I have not torn into it yet, however, I attached the processor to my PC and reset the input levels. Unfortunately, this did little to mitigate the problem. Did you have any similar issues? If so, what have you done to fix this? Thanks.


I have a 360.3 in my Cruze and it does not have hiss, though it did when it was in my Camaro. In my Cruze, I have my amp gains set to 0. When setting the 360.3 up, I turned up the volume on the head unit until the input level meters in the software turned red. I then backed the volume down just until it turned green again.

*Other important notes:* 
1. I am using the RCA pre-outs from an Alpine INE-S920HD as a source. 
2. I am only using the front left and front right as input signals. I had toyed with using the subwoofer pre-out as well, but it is currently only using the fronts.


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## nutdotnet

Are you the same sirboom that traded in his CLA due to rattles and sound system issues?


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## sirbOOm

Are you a murderer?


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## Dmack

sirbOOm said:


> Are you a murderer?


Even if he is, he's in Alaska. No murderer has the work ethic necessary to make the trip from Alaska to Georgia.


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## sirbOOm

Oddly lots of Alaska tax cheat plates in GA.


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## REGULARCAB

sirbOOm said:


> Are you a murderer?


Lol :laugh:


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## JoshHefnerX

Have a 360 running to factory headunit. no hiss at all. Do have a bit of alt whine but that's very faint and was there before the upgrade.


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## Dmack

Well, if the 360 does not treat me right, it'll be coming out to make room for an H800.


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## nutdotnet

sirbOOm said:


> Are you a murderer?




No. Just makes sense.

(I own a GLA)


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## sirbOOm

Okay, my ZEDs are back. The Minotaur tested fine. The Leviathan needed some clocks aligned. I put the Minotaur in first to test because it was the one cutting out. Well, it still cuts out. Again, it passed testing with flying colors. I'm getting no lights flickering on the Minotaur, no voltage drop that any of my methods of testing will pick up.

So, I decide to rig up my SMD DD-1 and do some distortion testing. Hook it up and find that the DD-1 is finding distortion at even very low volume on my head unit and the gain on the Minotaur down to as low as it'll go. Interesting. So I start backing up the signal chain and find that my L+ wire sends nothing but a distorted signal... at any volume except very low the DD-1 is picking up a clipped signal so bad that it barely can tell what frequency I'm sending it - 40hz/1000hz light comes on/off randomly but the red distortion light is always on. So I decide to test the L- wire... it finds zero distortion until I get a few clicks down on the volume of the head unit. I test the R+ and R- wire, zero distortion until the same spot on the volume as the L- wire. Test the ear speakers to and same deal, although they distort a couple clicks sooner than the fronts.

How the hell...????? The door is closed so there should be no bongs going off.

So I'm now going to yank out my radio and see if maybe I wired something wrong but first test the L+ signal right from the radio module behind my screen. If it distorts like the wire in the back of the cab, then we have a problem. If it doesn't, I have a wire issue. But I'm confused as all sin how the - wire does NOT distort but the + wire of the same side distorts. Maybe I don't know enough to know why this could happen but it's awfully fishy to say the least.

On top of this, I do not understand why the 360 did not find this distortion. Now, I should say that it allowed me to go to about the same volume spot as the DD-1 found distortion at on the other channels the very first time I set it up. Then the second time, it would only let me go up to about 3/4 volume. I considered it a fluke as most factory non-externally amplified heads I've actually tested only really go up to 3/4 before distorting in some way or another. 

Any ideas? I mean... WTF is with this g'dam install!!!?!?!?!?!


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## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> Okay, my ZEDs are back. The Minotaur tested fine. The Leviathan needed some clocks aligned. I put the Minotaur in first to test because it was the one cutting out. Well, it still cuts out. Again, it passed testing with flying colors. I'm getting no lights flickering on the Minotaur, no voltage drop that any of my methods of testing will pick up.
> 
> So, I decide to rig up my SMD DD-1 and do some distortion testing. Hook it up and find that the DD-1 is finding distortion at even very low volume on my head unit and the gain on the Minotaur down to as low as it'll go. Interesting. So I start backing up the signal chain and find that my L+ wire sends nothing but a distorted signal... at any volume except very low the DD-1 is picking up a clipped signal so bad that it barely can tell what frequency I'm sending it - 40hz/1000hz light comes on/off randomly but the red distortion light is always on. So I decide to test the L- wire... it finds zero distortion until I get a few clicks down on the volume of the head unit. I test the R+ and R- wire, zero distortion until the same spot on the volume as the L- wire. Test the ear speakers to and same deal, although they distort a couple clicks sooner than the fronts.
> 
> How the hell...????? The door is closed so there should be no bongs going off.
> 
> So I'm now going to yank out my radio and see if maybe I wired something wrong but first test the L+ signal right from the radio module behind my screen. If it distorts like the wire in the back of the cab, then we have a problem. If it doesn't, I have a wire issue. But I'm confused as all sin how the - wire does NOT distort but the + wire of the same side distorts. Maybe I don't know enough to know why this could happen but it's awfully fishy to say the least.
> 
> On top of this, I do not understand why the 360 did not find this distortion. Now, I should say that it allowed me to go to about the same volume spot as the DD-1 found distortion at on the other channels the very first time I set it up. Then the second time, it would only let me go up to about 3/4 volume. I considered it a fluke as most factory non-externally amplified heads I've actually tested only really go up to 3/4 before distorting in some way or another.
> 
> Any ideas? I mean... WTF is with this g'dam install!!!?!?!?!?!


360.3 doesn't see distortion from my understanding. There was a response to a post about this point some time back. Iirc it determines max input voltage from source unit. Not necessary distortion per say. This is my understanding so I may be wrong. Hopefully someone could chime in on this.


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## sirbOOm

Yeah, that's true. I was heated, using wrong terms.

So I took apart my dash. The L+ is wonky even without the signal to the back so it's not my wiring, thankfully. I hooked up the stock wiring and tested at the speaker on the dash and same thing. Either the head unit needs to see its regular load to output a proper signal or something internal went bad. Or maybe this is just the way it is because I can play a speaker off of the signal and hear zero distortion even with test tones... nothing.

I hooked up my Clarion HU to the Minotaur to rule out my OEM head unit and the Minotaur does the same thing with a direct RCA connection to the amp. Great...

Looks like the Minotaur is off to ZED tomorrow. Incredible luck I have... incredible. My Minotaur I was a perfect specimen and never had a single friggin' issue.


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## Huckleberry Sound

I thought the Minotaur came back all good and clean? Did I miss something or do you now need to send it in?


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## sirbOOm

Well... on top of all of this, my RF 360.3 just crapped out. I guess too much connecting, disconnecting amplifiers or something I don't know but it is now doing what my first RF 360.3 did, just shows a red light and will not output any sound. Was fused, too... fuse did not blow. Un-freakin'-believable. If RF doesn't replace this thing (now will be for the THIRD TIME I have had to replace a 360.3) I am done with it.

Good news is it seems as if my Leviathan is fixed... at least I do not hear the noise I used to hear. It makes a sort of tube TV whine sound - the amplifier itself - but so does my Minotaur so maybe that is normal.


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## REGULARCAB

Dude!!!!!... just step away. At this point its like a puzzle and you cant find that one damn piece. The first person to walk by is going to see it in 2 seconds.

Have someone else look at your install. I'm not saying you are incapable, im saying there are so damn many weird ass things happening that you must be glossing over something and just don't realize it.


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## sirbOOm

Huckleberry Sound said:


> I thought the Minotaur came back all good and clean? Did I miss something or do you now need to send it in?


The 360 went to get tested before I sent it to ZED. It tested fine on the bench but took TWO power supplies not to cut out so maybe that's the problem... maybe it's burning through power for no reason. My Minotaur I was a dream.


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## sirbOOm

REGULARCAB said:


> Dude!!!!!... just step away. At this point its like a puzzle and you cant find that one damn piece. The first person to walk by is going to see it in 2 seconds.
> 
> Have someone else look at your install. I'm not saying you are incapable, im saying there are so damn many weird ass things happening that you must be glossing over something and just don't realize it.


I'm done for the night. Was going to go to the NC meet but doubt that'll work. Going to have things looked at at my shop this weekend if I don't go to NC.


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## REGULARCAB

I would be livid man. I do wish you luck.


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## JoshHefnerX

you weren't having this problem w/ the tn amps right?

could there have been something shorting or drawing too much on the input on the minotar that may be re-causing further problems?


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## sirbOOm

No, TN amps are fine.


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## sirbOOm

Welp, I hooked up the Leviathan this evening. Noise issue gone, that's good.

BUT THE F'ING 3RD CHANNEL DOESN'T WORK! It did when I had it hooked up before.

This is absolutely f'ing unnecessary. Back to ZED with this one. I have spent now over $150 in shipping these things around to be looked at/fixed. 

If it wasn't for the noticeably better SQ out of this amp compared to 3 other amps I've been screwing with, I'd simply give up. It's probably worth it for me to just get these fixed and dump them and get something else... I really can't take this horseshit anymore. If I get something else I hit a budget constraint and the best I can do that works for me is probably JL XD800.8 and XD1000.

Hope you love the ghetto rig I setup. LOC to the Leviathan, Leviathan to crossovers for the tweeter and midrange and then channel 3 and 4 for the midbass. 5 and 6 for the sub bridged at 4-ohm (Ultimo... won't put in the SI subs until I get my seats in). Oh, the issue is not the LOC. It may be cheap but it works and always has.


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## 2167

I have three 360's two .2's and 1 .1 all been back to RF twice for the bluetooth...
never again rockford never again

i feel ur pain


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## Golden Ear

Sorry to hear about your amp. Now you know what some of us have been thru with Zed. Sold mine not too long after I bought it and I'm glad I did.


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## shutmdown

Wow sorry to hear about all this bad luck with the Zed amp. I'm surprised they didn't test it before sending it back out to you. They should cover the next round of shipping costs, it only seems fair.


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## sirbOOm

Well I figured out that it only cuts out the 3rd channel when that third channel is being bandpassed. 3rd channel comes on again when you high/low pass and full range 3 and 4. Fiddle with the switch that you select bandpass with and the sound from 3 and 4 will sometimes cut out entirely. So something is loose on the board. This could have been easy to miss because I was not using bandpass and thus it was set to full range when I sent the amp to him - I needed bandpass because I don't have a processor right now. Regardless, I need this amp at 100% because, quite frankly, I'd like to sell it and the Minotaur and move on. I'd love the Arc KS amps but two won't fit on my back wall it seems like unless I ditch the processor and move it somewhere else.


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## sirbOOm

Just looked up current consumption on the Minotaur II: 52A using a sine wave at 4-ohm. So if that number is correct, it needing almost 200 amps of bench power dimming the shop's lights during this test to reach clipping using a sine wave makes no sense whatsoever. This turn off/on thing happens with music at the same exact point on the gain so it's not just sine waves. Max current draw for music is supposed to be just 15A.


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## sirbOOm

Well Fosgate will be replacing my 360 so I will give it one more try...


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## sirbOOm

Well I might be reaching into my Christmas gift fund and be getting two Alpine PDX-F4 and one Alpine PDX-M6 amplifiers to replace my ZEDs (or the JL XDs, can't decide). I'm going to be road tripping for the holidays all over creation and the stereo needs to be done by the 22nd weekend. God knows I'm not going to see either of my ZED amps before then.

If I get new amps, I will probably fire sale the ZED amps on this site. They'll come back to me having been sign sealed delivered from Stephen himself but I'd sell at a lower than typical price to make them go the f'k away.


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## casey

Id do(and did) the same thing with my PG elite amps. Steve M actually looked at my elite.5 for PG CA when I sent it the last time, and said it performed flawlessly. 

I say dump them asap and get something you know is going to be reliable


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## ssmith100

Get the JL HD's and be done. I always end up coming back to them and I have never had one fail. 

Shane


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## sirbOOm

Probably far too expensive for my current financial situation. I'd need at least a 900/5 + 600/4 and I'd rather not use a 5-channel for subwoofer duty (never have much happiness with that), instead using a dedicated subwoofer amp with headroom to ensure at least 300 watts to each SI sub (not just 250), so that'd mean two 600/4s and one 750/1. Even with a discount that's mad amounts of money. And I don't mix amps... just can't bring myself to do it for some reason even though I won't see them once the install is done, haha. We'll see. I'll price some stuff out Saturday.


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## Golden Ear

Too bad you don't like 5 channel amps. 2 V9s would cost the same as 2 F4s and an M6 but would give you more power and take up less space. I have one in my Tahoe and it works great.


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## sirbOOm

Well... that's not a bad idea at all - run each SI sub at 2-ohm load and keep the gain down. Didn't think of two 5-channels option because of my bias, one for each sub. Kind of annoying that I'd have to level match the sub outputs. Well, not NEEDED as each sub is in its own chamber but... ya know.

Just always seem to end up with "sloppier" bass (not as tight, doesn't go as low) from a 5-channel's sub channel vs. a dedicated amp and I've used / installed most mainstream 5-channels except the JL HDs. Not that I was doing A/B comparisons (except once with a PDX-F6 vs. a Kenwood Excelon 5-channel that was supposed to put out 100 more watts... the dedicated PDX sub amp easily outperformed the Kenwood's sub channel in that case). 

Hmmm....

F'ing selecting amps is a plain in the booty.


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## sirbOOm

Back to rockin' the spider amps off of a LOC until I get a processor and amps again! Hah.

Have to say, flattening out the signal from the OEM HU in the processor makes worlds of difference. The stock HU must have 250 and 500 Hz jacked to high heaven. I had to do some funny stuff with crossovers to cut that out otherwise my midrange and midbass speakers literally would distort with the gains even halfway below the clipping point on the amp. Grrrrr. Last thing I need is to be blowing my speakers now... good lord.

The Minotaur reached Steve at ZED. The Leviathan will get there probably Tuesday. I expect a couple week turn around. If they'll be back before my holiday road trips begin I'll put them in and hope for the best. If not, come next weekend I'll have different amps altogether and I'll wrap this crap up.

I've noticed some buzzing in my doors with this factory non-flattened signal including my door handle itself buzzing. Wonderful. Will take the cards off this weekend when it warms up a bit and see about some additional dressings to shut that up.

The crossovers on the Soundstream amps are sufficient but suck compared to the processor. I've never trusted crossovers on amps and this reaffirms it. I swear these are not even 6 db crossovers... they don't do much unless you go way past what you figure would be the right spot... but of course they aren't labeled well so... 

Almost bought Alpine PDX amps yesterday but I just couldn't bring myself to spend the money hoping and praying that my Minotaur does have a fault that gets fixed and the Leviathan just needs a minor whatever and done. Hopefully Steve doesn't charge me an arm and a leg for both of them haha. He fixed the Leviathan for free but might not fix it again for free plus the Minotaur. Who knows...

Oh, and I figure I'll see my replacement 360.3 end of next week maybe the monday tuesday after. I don't want to be an early adopter for the new Helix DSP Pro and don't have $1K to dump on one right now so I guess I will just use the 360.3 and hope for the best this time... 4th times a charm. My shop has had ZERO issues with the 360 so far (and only one bad Bit.1) so I'm going to absorb the good karma over there this Saturday.

Off to the drive in theater now to watch that new space movie with my ****ty system.


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## cwharris911

I just put a pdx amp in my 14 a couple of weeks ago and love it, no noise issues and I stole your connection idea and am using the new connector and speed wire. No processor, just an lc7i. At this point I think you would be better off getting rid of the zeds and trying something else, no way I would stick with something that had given me that much trouble.


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## sirbOOm

I would be better off but if you've ever heard a ZED Leviathan... it's hard to give up. 

That and I really don't have the scrilla for new amps.


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## Dmack

As soon as I get the chance, I will post pics of the 2014 Z71 I am working on. I ended up going with Hybrid L3SEs in the dash and L6SEs in the doors. That is all that complete, so far. Amps will be Alpine PDX F4 on the L3s, F6 on the L6s, and M12 on a single ported Clarus 12.


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## sirbOOm

I'd love to see that. If I had my way, I'd have my Audison Voce 3-way set in the car instead of the Pioneer Stage 4 but I didn't find a way to fit the midrange without hacking and/or fiberglass and they need some form of enclosure to be their best, really. If not posting just PM me. Would love to hear this, too. I haven't heard my system in forever...


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## sirbOOm

I'm also thinking about putting my backup A-pillars in and making tweeter pods for them vs. the way I've been going. It's going to cost so much to cover these pillars because of the f'ing handle on the passenger side and I'm concerned they won't even go back in as the clearance between the A-pillar panel and the grill of the dash speaker is zero. We'll see...

Emailed Stephen. He's had my Minotaur since Wednesday or Thursday of next week. I'm trying hard not to seem pushy but I am beyond impatient at this point. That's not his problem really so not fair but dammit I have been sidelined by these things so long and I don't feel comfortable buying new amps. I just have this bad feeling I will not like the PDXs or HDs that are really my only option if I want to match amps, which is a must for me unfortunately - although I'm getting looser on that. My Leviathan will reach him Thursday. I'd be happy if I get it back before Thanksgiving week. I will be driving a total of over 60 hours around that week and will have to have a working amplifier rack. These TN amps are too obviously class D, if that makes sense. The JBL GTO amps (they were A/B except the sub amp) sounded better without question and they are just as cheap. Just won't fit on my amp rack (all three anyway... plus they're sold).


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## sirbOOm

Turns out my Minotaur is indeed faulty. Mantz said he fixed it. Don't know what was wrong with it yet but if it works it works. Don't think he's fixing this one for free though. Guess I can't expect that.


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## Dmack

Let me get the pics uploaded to photobucket and I will post them. It took a little work, but not too bad. I cut a ring for the L3s to mount to out of 1/4 MDF and glued them on top of the factory mounting surface. I had to trim away some of the plastic to make this happen. 

I then used sound deadener to close in the area around the baffle. Then, I went in on the inside and build up the walls with a mixture of resin, short strand fiberglass, and cabosil. The speakers now vent down into the dash cavity.


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## sirbOOm

Don't get what you did on the last part with the fiberglass but I'll see when you post. Thanks.

I've already widened my holes to 2 11/16" for the Pioneers... wasn't hard. Just loud and messy with the roto.


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## Dmack

Yeah, pictures always explain it better, so here you go. 

Test fitting for depth

Here you can see how I built a little pod out of sound deadening. 

I then took a mixture of fiberglass resin, short-strand fiberglass fibers, and cabosil (resin thickener) and mixed it up to give me a body filler consistency. I then coated the inside of the pod with the mixture, giving my a thickness of about .25".

Routed by wire into the pod and filled with polyfill. The L3 vents down into the dash cavity. 

Here is the driver's side done, just awaiting the trim. Please forgive my use of drywall screws--I did not have the proper fasteners on hand. This will be replaced. Plus, you know how hard it is to maneuver in these tight quarters. 

Here is the passenger side for good measure. You can see the acoustic foam I places around the speaker. This is to reduce reflections around the speaker area, which may occur as a result of the speaker being being below the dash trim and grills. 

Just a couple shots of deadener applied to the dash trim. 


And proof that it all goes back together like it should. 

And L6SEs in the doors for good measure.


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## sirbOOm

Excellent work. I was affraid adding baffle lifting the speaker would make it not clear the grill panel... guess I was wrong. Okay, one more question - how did you create the enclosure I see in the hole though? I see it looks like you fiberglassed a "cup" but I couldn't think of how you did that... put some material down in there and resin it or am I missing something? And how does it "vent" - through the speaker wire hole? 

Wasn't that f'ing wire by the midbass annoying hanging right by the speaker?! I ended up zip tying it away and then forgetting to put it back on when I put the door on, haha.

Are you getting any rattle from the upper rear of the door like where the door handle is? My door handles on both sides are rattling and I can hear it. It's going to kill me...


----------



## sirbOOm

Also, I see no reason to change out the drywall screws... they worked fine. Nobody is going to hold that against you.


----------



## Dmack

I created that "cup" with sound deadener, alone. I just used it to fill in the area around the baffle area, then I used a small piece of MDF that you can see in the pic to support the baffle while I used the resin mixture to build up the wall thickness from the inside. They vent down into the dash because I did not seal the bottom--it is still somewhat open. 

And I agree about the screws. They are just unsightly, especially when you can'y put them in perfectly straight. If anyone else every works on a vehicle behind me, I don't like to give them anything to nit pick. As far as the wiring harness in the door goes, there is a hole on the door panel where you pop in the friction clip on the harness. That keeps it out of the way. Yes, I did get a little rattle from the back edge of the door panel, near the latch. I am going to have to add some more deadener to the doors. If you have never installed any L6s, they beat down. Here is a little test run after getting the panel back on.


----------



## sirbOOm

I think I get it. Just looked like you made a cup down INTO the speaker hole and used resin which in theory would need something to be applied to. I was thinking of finding a small cup - like an actual dish cup - and then making an enclosure with that when inevitably I decide to change my current system, haha.

Damn that rattle... you can hear the door handle rattle on the outside of the car too. I'll try to deaden more but I think I might end up using MLV to just "block" that rattle sound as best as I can because I cannot "tighten" the door handle from what I can tell.

My Pioneer Stage 4 drivers will give a non deadened door a beat down too. So far only that little rattle in that area and if there's anything in the door pockets. I did not deaden the door card itself because that white Thinsulate stuff wasn't removable.


----------



## sirbOOm

Is that a 135 in the background? Please have that shipped to me. I will hold onto it for you.


----------



## sirbOOm

Question - how many inches did you come out of the door metal for the speaker baffle? I am 1.25" or a little more I think I could go another .5" to get the speaker closer to the grill.


----------



## Dmack

sirbOOm said:


> Is that a 135 in the background? Please have that shipped to me. I will hold onto it for you.


Good eye! Yeah that is my little mid 12 second daily driver.  If you could pan to the left, you'd see my Team Hybrids competition vehicle. I have some fun toys!


----------



## Dmack

sirbOOm said:


> Question - how many inches did you come out of the door metal for the speaker baffle? I am 1.25" or a little more I think I could go another .5" to get the speaker closer to the grill.


1.5"


----------



## Dmack

sirbOOm said:


> I think I get it. Just looked like you made a cup down INTO the speaker hole and used resin which in theory would need something to be applied to. I was thinking of finding a small cup - like an actual dish cup - and then making an enclosure with that when inevitably I decide to change my current system, haha.
> 
> Damn that rattle... you can hear the door handle rattle on the outside of the car too. I'll try to deaden more but I think I might end up using MLV to just "block" that rattle sound as best as I can because I cannot "tighten" the door handle from what I can tell.
> 
> My Pioneer Stage 4 drivers will give a non deadened door a beat down too. So far only that little rattle in that area and if there's anything in the door pockets. I did not deaden the door card itself because that white Thinsulate stuff wasn't removable.


The rattling you hear in the video is the plastic cup lid bouncing around. It is really not that bad. I did treat the cards, but only around the edges and around the speaker area.


----------



## Dmack

I will post pics of the enclosure/amp rack this weekend.


----------



## sirbOOm

So you're not sending me the 135 then? Hmmph.


----------



## Dmack

Tell you what--drive over to Montgomery and I'll take you for a spin.


----------



## sirbOOm

Done. Also want to hear your system. And might as well that Hybrid car of yours. And since we're hangin' out, drag race our trucks... why not?!

Hey does your truck have a clunky driveline (if its 4WD)?


----------



## Dmack

sirbOOm said:


> Done. Also want to hear your system. And might as well that Hybrid car of yours. And since we're hangin' out, drag race our trucks... why not?!
> 
> Hey does your truck have a clunky driveline (if its 4WD)?


The truck is actually not mine, so if you want to hear it, better make plans for a road trip around middle of next week. I have not installed professionally since 2000. I am now only a hobby-level enthusiast. However, I do take on the occasional high-end side job, done under my terms. It is a nice distraction from my day job. This truck belongs to a guy I went to high school with and who was really screwed over by a local shop. 

I will be finishing up the sub enclosure/amp rack this weekend. I will then need about a day to created all the tunes and save them. (I am intruducing him to SQ and possibly competition, however, he still likes to jam hard and also uses the truck for tailgating and road trips)


----------



## sirbOOm

Road trips to Atlanta??? Hint.

Sorry to hear he got screwed by a shop.


----------



## Dmack

I am at Hybrid HQ pretty often, but I would not be there in the truck.


----------



## sirbOOm

My replacement 360.3 arrives Tuesday. My ZEDs... unknown. This means I'm driving 12 hours to Chicago, 6 hours to Minneapolis, 6 hours back to Chicago, 12 hours back to Atlanta plus everywhere in-between with at times TWO dogs with just a rigged up stereo and tears. Oh, and the box that was made for me arrived broken...

Oh the ills of being cursed.


----------



## sirbOOm

My 360.3 is here and I'm just waiting on my repaired ZED amps from Steve and UPS. Both hopefully are good to go. Otherwise I have Alpine amps on hold for me at my shop. 

If everything comes by Wednesday, I should be able to have the amps and processor board and all associated wiring buttoned up by the 8th or 9th. I plan to take my door cards off again and do a bit more deadening - of the card itself, foam some places, etc. 

At that point, I will need to finish up my passenger A-pillar and then get them wrapped and conceivably everything but tuning which I'm going to attempt but ultimately pay someone to do after I have eliminated any rattles/buzzes should be done.


----------



## Dmack

I pretty much got that Z71 finished. I am uploading some pics to Photobucket right now. As soon as they're done, I will show you how things turned out.


----------



## Dmack

This is right after I sat the enclosure/amprack in the truck, so disregard the wires you see in the back. The enclosure houses a single Clarus 12 in 1.9^feet ported. The grills you see vent the sub on one side and the port on the other.


----------



## sirbOOm

Looks great. Must be nice having all that space under the seats in a crew cab!

Great looking box, too. I'd like to do a fancy box like that one day!


----------



## Dmack

I have still not fully tamed the nastiness of the factory HU. I think what we have decided to do is use the factory HU for radio and iPod functionality and install an Alpine DVA-9861 to use as a CD transport, using the optical between that HU and the H800 processor.


----------



## sirbOOm

My 360.3 flattens out the factory just fine, I thought. The factory in mine has some bumps in bass I think around 80 Hz, some bumps around 250 and 500 and it's alright on up from there. Without the flattening, my midbass sounds like absolute SHYTE. 

I'll get the Alpine head unit/perfect fit/8" setup once Maestro catches up with this model generation. Otherwise, if I was thinking of competing, I'd use my fancy pants Clarion HU for CD like you're thinking of doing with that Alpine. But I never play CDs, just lossless through USB so no actual point... Clarion doesn't have USB.


----------



## sirbOOm

Whatever a "sensing circuit" is is what was bad on the Minotaur according to the invoice. I should be able to test it out tomorrow. Crossing fingers. Leviathan came back with a clean bill of health as well so I'm hopefully good to go. 

Now begins the pain and suffering of running a lot of wires cleanly in a tight space... a gift at this point.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

It will turn out amazing!


----------



## Golden Ear

sirbOOm said:


> Whatever a "sensing circuit" is is what was bad on the Minotaur according to the invoice. I should be able to test it out tomorrow. Crossing fingers. Leviathan came back with a clean bill of health as well so I'm hopefully good to go.
> 
> Now begins the pain and suffering of running a lot of wires cleanly in a tight space... a gift at this point.


Are you still planning on selling them or are you going to run them?


----------



## Tnutt19

Love the subtle touch you added to the enclosure/amp rack, roll tide!!


----------



## sirbOOm

Golden Ear said:


> Are you still planning on selling them or are you going to run them?


I'm going to run them if they work. Can't afford new amps right now.


----------



## sirbOOm

Okie dokie... took the seats out in the back for the umteenth time now and we are clear for finishing up back there. I may have mentioned before but I intend to "carpet" the amp rack with MLV to block as much noise as I can now that the OEM noise blocking/absorbing stuff is mostly gone on the back to make way for the amp rack. I hate road noise so much.

Gotta bit of a work dinner this evening so nothing will happen today. Had a little incident outside my house last night so only got the seats out, no amp testification. So that'll happen Thursday instead. 

I also lost my f'ing staple gun that I have not even taken out of the package! Anyone know where I put it?


In other news...
Oh... while driving up to Chicago and back it was windier than very windy situation. I noticed some sort of rattle-like sound from the top side of the door above the window on both sides while going above 70MPH in side or head on winds (gas mileage sucked).

Having had a Ford Fiesta that I dearly miss that was known for making the same noises, the fix being to spray silicone lube on the door seal from time to time, I figured putting some breast implant on the seal would help. It did - rattle was really two pieces of rubbery stuff caressing together ever so softly.

So if you experience this mind-breaking noise, get yourself some silicone and spread it on the seal. See if that helps your situation. Do not get it on your hands... wear gloves and use a rag, of course.


----------



## FaceOfDeceit

Thanks so much for this thread! Install will be so much easier now! I hope you get it finished soon, and have better luck than you have been...cause, damn.


----------



## Dmack

Man, I really wish you could hear this truck. The Hybrid drivers are now properly broken in and re-tuned, and it is pure magic!!


----------



## sirbOOm

Nah... you're lying. I don't believe you.


----------



## bertholomey

That's good stuff Nick - I'm looking forward to seeing / hearing this truck once you get it knocked out!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sirbOOm

The MLV layer (quite dirty from cutting on the garage floor but that'll get wiped later) is up and the amps are mounted for wiring measurements and so forth. Cross your fingers these puppies decide to work... and the seats go back on!


























Measurements indicate I can fit one of those new 10-channel Helix DSP Pros in there so if I decide to have rear speakers again (not powered off of the head unit) then I'm glad I can fit one of those in there. Of course, I'd have to get different amps... don't have enough channels for a 4-way active setup unless I power the tweeties off of some bitty amp hidden somewhere which would have to be the case. I don't have the money nor the time to even figure that out right now so moving on...

I'm going to use off the shelf RCAs for now but it'll be a thousand times cleaner if I make my own RCAs to length. I'll do that over the summer unless I just cannot make my Stinger 4000s tuck in nicely. Hopefully they're all in good shape... at this point they've been all over my garage and who knows if one got crunched. In either case, I need RCAs with small barrels to fit the gap with ease between the processor and the Leviathan. 

Ug... every time I send my amps to Stephen he switches the orientation of the plexi cover and I have to unscrew the 50 billion little screws to switch it around. Whining now... 

I'm going to make some dinner, play with the dog that is having a straight fit sitting at the door of my office with the rope in his mouth giving me guilty eyes. Then I'll run out and do some testing just so I can actually sleep tonight and/or know if I need to head up to Sound Sensations and buy myself some Alpine PDX amps!

Wish me luck gents and one known lady. I hope for MANY MANY posts of luck wishing. Possibly some prayers in multiple religions. And if you know any of the Greek gods... give them a shout for me, too! Maybe Zues can hold off on the electrical shenanigans for me just this once. Thanks bro!


----------



## sirbOOm

I have to make a little board that'll go on the bottom left of the photo there to hold the distribution block or find somewhere else to put power distribution. I did not think hard enough about the fact that there is a jack right in that location that mounts to the floor and I have a strong feeling that somabich will not fit back in if I put power dist. there. Otherwise I will put the dist. block on the floor by where the center seatbelt mounted (my drill is pointing at that location). In fact... not a bad idea considering then I can get to fuses if I need to without ripping my seat off. Ideally I never need to get to fuses but... with my luck........

Oh... and I gave a little drive around the neighborhood to see if this layer of MLV stuff actually blocked some noise and it does... not a huge massive amount but noticeable. With the seat back on there isn't much more noise that stock (without the MLV) so having the MLV will be an exta bonus. Plus I think it doesn't look half bad. I would have liked to sort of sew it up to the OEM MLV panel thing but the ZED amps would not allow that... they are too big so it juts under the OEM layer on the top and driver side. On the passenger side you can see it stops which is about 2" past my amp board and that'll sit about 1" under the OEM MLV layer thing once I put it back down. You can sorta see it is being held up right now so I can work.

I tell ya... this amp board mounting approach with the bolts and so forth really is working out nicely. I didn't have to glue a thing to the amp board just drill some holes in the MLV for each screw and all the stuff on there holds it on for me. Time saved. And no need to spray glue, get high, and forget my name. Again...

OMG this wiring is going to be such a pain in the patooty... BUT I WILL OVERCOME!


----------



## shutmdown

nice to see it coming together!


----------



## casey

Glad it's coming back together. Crossing my fingers that your amp woes are over


----------



## Golden Ear

Good luck!!


----------



## sirbOOm

I'm happy to report that the Minotaur II appears to be working. Hooked it up quickly and used my iPhone to give it signal. DD-1'd it so I find clipping point... it never turned off. Played that "fire up the bass cannon" dubstep song and it acted normally. The Minotaur will go into some mode if it's sending a distorted signal but I was able to get it to operate at full gain and just over 3/4 volume on the iPhone which is an extreme situation, so we should be good to go. I haven't flipped on the Levi yet but it should be fine. Was in California twice already... it should be.


----------



## sirbOOm

Quick shot of the Streetwires distribution blocky thingy mounted where it is mounted. I routered out a piece of 1/4" ABS and epoxied it to the wall. Block is screwed in using 8/32 hurricane nuts which coincidentally is the biggest screw you'll be able to fit through the mounting holes. I will need to trim some of the OEM BLV/jute layer thing around here but my jack clears no problem. Wiring trickery will avoid the jack with the power/ground wires - won't be too difficult. Not too many options given the haaa-friggin'-uuuge size of my amplifiers but this works nicely, the fuses will be accessible with a little reach around under the passenger side rear seat, and everything will tuck pretty nicely. Wish they made an inverse model so that I can have my power wiring come out toward the driver side but... lay of the land.










Red wires for ground are just temporary until I get some ground wire tomorrow... all these amp changes and I cut too much of my black wire. Oops.

See my comparo of the Stinger Pro and MESA wire you see in the photo here.


----------



## sirbOOm

Well. I've had it...

The Leviathan or SOMETHING still makes the exact same noise most pronounced when it is behind the 360.3 even when the gains are all the way down on the amp.

I'm grounding to the battery directly with a 1/0 wire. That 1/0 wire does not go/fit through the electronic thing that the OEM ground wires go through. I can't see this being the cause of the noise but that's all I can think of right now if it's a ground issue. When you start the car while the amps/360 are on it makes all kinds of goofy sounds but doesn't follow the engine RPM. 

I'm going to try a better DMM from one of the guys at the shop and see if maybe grounding directly to the battery wasn't a good idea. I lost patience and haven't tried grounding everything to the frame of the vehicle yet but I will tomorrow I guess. Just weird that it is the same exact noise. 

I did disconnect the speaker level in and connect my phone via RCA to the 360 and the noise went away but I had a ridiculous floor his (gains down). This is a brand new 360.

I'm at a loss... considering those JBL amps I was using didn't have a single issue.

Seriously considering just putting this thing back to the stock audio system and adding a subwoofer and calling it done because I really can't afford to be dropping so much money into this anymore... took me a year and a half to comprise this build.


----------



## Golden Ear

Sorry to hear about the noise issues, Sir. Been there, done that. Don't give up tho! I don't know about you but almost every time I install or replace a system or parts of one I end up with some kind of an issue that I have to troubleshoot. The last one was a complete install of hu, amps, speakers, sub and all the wiring and the tweeters weren't working. So I checked everything I could think of and come to find out that the wire that came with the comp set for the tweeters was no good. Who would have thought that BOTH pieces of wire for the tweeters were bad?! Anyway, good luck and don't give up!


----------



## sirbOOm

Well the conclusion at the shop today was either bad amp, bad signal or most likely... don't ground direct to the battery. Will spend time tomorrow redoing my ground situation. Suggestion is to ground amps to frame then upgrade frame ground to battery.

Another installer did a Audison Voce setup with a 360 and the PDX V9 and it had midbass for days. Tweeters are harsh but that can be tuned. Makes me want to put my Vice 3 way in now. Haha.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

Grounding to the battery is a safety hazard, there's a thread on here. Are you changing any wiring when you put in the other amp or 360, could one of the rca's be grounding out someplace? There was a good thread on here about troubleshooting various noise by removing components and trying various grounding changes. Cant find that one right now. 


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...iscussion/41480-grounding-amp-battery-ok.html


----------



## Beezlebub

Wow, the dedication and amount of work going into this install is impressive. I like these trucks a lot, wish I could afford one.


----------



## Beckerson1

JoshHefnerX said:


> Grounding to the battery is a safety hazard, there's a thread on here. Are you changing any wiring when you put in the other amp or 360, could one of the rca's be grounding out someplace? There was a good thread on here about troubleshooting various noise by removing components and trying various grounding changes. Cant find that one right now.
> 
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...iscussion/41480-grounding-amp-battery-ok.html


Serious question and not really pointed directly at you either. I don't want to flood this thread about this either so this is more of a thought then anything. They rant and rant about IF the engine ground were to fail. So grounding your amps/audio equipment to the same place as your battery (chassis) ground would protect you from frying everything in the car. Well tell me this. Your engine ground were to fail and even though you followed this rule things still will get toasted. Am I correct in my thinking. You loose that route for ground, there are tons more potential grounding points which can be potentially hazardous. 

I agree with the fact that there is a RISK to grounding directly to battery but I feel this risk is still evident even if your ground directly to chassis as well. Diminished? 


As of now there is only ONE item in my install that is still grounded to chassis as far as audio is related and that's my antenna ground. I will relocate this as well once I figure how to get to it. At least I hope to be able to get to it. If not I can easily relocate a new antenna to eliminate this potential hazard. In theory if I were to relocate this ground to follow suit with my all my audio this potential threat of blowing up my radio in the case my engine ground were to fail is virtually eliminated? At least that's my thought seeing all audio is on its own circuit (battery being the distro block both + and -)


Basically what I'm getting at here is if you properly prevent such accidents (such as making sure slack is evident in the engine/chassis ground run) and take measure to protect this important wire you diminish this very rare instance from happening. Accidents happen and I'd be less worried about blowing up equipment, and more worried about my life. Things can be replaced but YOU/WE can't... So if OP wants to ground to the battery I say go ahead but make sure you use precautions while doing so. Calculated risk, we all do it every time we step foot inside our cars

Sorry SirbOOm for the winded post


----------



## sirbOOm

Well just my luck my second try at a box arrived broken. Two times it was broken. They need to use packing material on these damn things!

Played around with grounding to a seat bolt and I was able to reduce the noise or at least not hear it from where I was standing. I was literally holding a wire against the bolt that I wite brushed the coating off of and if I press and wrap the wore around it good the noise reduced. So we know it's a grounding issue now. Hopefully. Common system. Come the fk on!!!!


----------



## sirbOOm

I did a number of things today to try and quell this noise issue and concluded with the following test that, as far as I can fathom, isolates again the ZED Leviathan as the culprit.

I hooked up my midrange speakers (since I can hear the noise through these the easiest) to my Soundstream TN2600D amplifier. I also allowed the 360.3 to turn on both the Minotaur and the Leviathan but both amplifiers did not have any RCAs connected to them form the 360.3. Turned everyone on and heard then noise... again, only the Soundstream is connected to speakers and the 360.3.

I'm sitting in the seat wondering what the flapping birdshoot just happened.

Then I decided to pull the fuse for the Minotaur and Leviathan thinking I didn't need those in the picture to continue on my quest thinking "Oh, well I guess now we know it's a ground issue since another amp is doing this same noise now."

Pull fuse of the Minotaur... no change. I think this amp is just fine.
Pull fuse of the Leviathan... boom, noise gone.

Leviathan had ZERO audio signal going into it. Disconnected it, noise gone.

The more RCAs you plug into the Levithan, the more noise it makes. It does not make noise on its own when turned on with no RCAs connected to it but apparently if another amplifier is powered by the same power and ground and is getting RCA input from the 360.3 and outputting to speakers but the Leviathan is not, the Leviathan still is somehow introducing noise into the signal chain.

This is baffling...

All of this was grounding direct to the battery.

I made the same body ground that was recently suggested to me (bolt through cab floor) and typically what we will do at the shop with trucks and that had no effect. My wiring to the battery from the body is already upgraded to 2AWG from 4AWG stock so I really can't think it is the wiring up there in the engine bay since same noise direct to battery or grounded to body.


----------



## sirbOOm

The only thing stopping me from getting new amps (other than... money) is my fear that these new amps will do the same thing or some other noise. I can buy but I cannot return. I guess unless I buy from Crutchfield and pay full price which is something I rarely find myself doing. I really don't know how to isolate the head unit as the culprit because it plays speakers just fine and through a LOC I didn't get any noise, just some hiss (but it was a cheap LOC and I'm learning from folks PMing me reading this that the stock HU sends out a bit of a dirty signal above 1/2 vol).


----------



## bkjay

Is it possible to use another head unit and connect it directly to the amp. I think that's the only way to no for sure. Maybe you can borrow one from your shop you work at or a buddy of yours. Just a thought.


----------



## sirbOOm

I did that when I noticed the noise in the first place before sending to ZED...  still had the noise.


----------



## bradknob

I had close to the same issue with my Leviathan. Had 3 JBL amps with no noise, and direct replacement with the leviathan and boom... Noise. With 1 set of RCAs plugged in - no noise. 2 sets - a little noise that was inaudible after my head unit volume reached 6. 3 - sets of RCAs - a little louder than before and was inaudible after certain volume on the head unit.

Racked my brain for days yanking wires and this and that. Finally I realized that my DSP remote out was only putting out about 4 volts. I tried by passing the DSP and ran 12v remote directly from the head unit (aftermarket) and like magic. ZERO noise. DSP sent back for warranty.

Fast forward two weeks later. I relocated the amp and used a different grounding point, bolt that hold down front seat.... And there it was again, NOISE. I sanded a little more paint off and tossed the old copper, 18" long cable I was using and swapped with a 6" long piece of brand new cable... And boom again. ZERO noise.

Hopefully this helps some. I think the leviathans are super sensitive to noise. Hopefully u get it sorted out.


----------



## sirbOOm

Welp... I'm going to give these amp 5 evenings of chances this coming week before I go to the stock room and buy me some Alpine PDX amps and cross my fingers they are not as ridiculously sensitive to noise even with as good of a ground as I can get. I'm just not signing up for drilling holes all over my truck to find a spot to ground this thing, ya know? Damn what a pain in the ass. Even the cheap crap systems I do at the shop have zero noise. My own system... noise. What gives!


----------



## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> Welp... I'm going to give these amp 5 evenings of chances this coming week before I go to the stock room and buy me some Alpine PDX amps and cross my fingers they are not as ridiculously sensitive to noise even with as good of a ground as I can get. I'm just not signing up for drilling holes all over my truck to find a spot to ground this thing, ya know? Damn what a pain in the ass. Even the cheap crap systems I do at the shop have zero noise. My own system... noise. What gives!


I know sucks. I was fighting some tweeter noise for a long time and it came down to grounds. HU and 360.3 didn't like each other for some reason. It's way better now. I've virtually eliminated all noise issues. 

Have you tried absolutely NO DSP in the line? Just hook up 12V+ remote to your power wire, RCA's off HU and give that a try. Also I think I mentioned this before and it made it worse but did you switch the balanced/unbalanced switch on the 360.3


----------



## sirbOOm

Can't switch balanced/unbalanced - that makes it worse, yep.

I can't go direct into the Leviathan from my head unit... I'm using high-level. I'd need to use a LOC and when I did use a cheap LOC and fired up the Leviathan after it came back the first time, I don't remember hearing the noise. But then again I've plugged in the Leviathan with an aftermarket head unit before sending it in and heard the noise so I don't trust that memory. I'm going to be trying that again but what I really need is a different processor to try to see if the 360.3 and the Leviathan just don't work together. I mean it could be the 360.3 but... why / how? I mean this one is brand spankin' new and there's no reason it should have any issues. It's close to my power distribution block so I guess maybe it is picking up noise but I had my amps and 360.3 far far away from the distribution block when I first noticed this noise before sending it in for repair.

I'm going to call RF once they open up.

Here's a video of the noise.


----------



## Darkrider

Have you tried putting a cap in? All kinds of things can dirty the power in computer-controlled-everything cars. It's a long shot I know, but worth a shot if you have an old 0.5F or 1.0F cap you could try.


----------



## Beckerson1

Good lord that is awful. Sounds like a old school radio. Could be a RFI/EMI issue?


----------



## sirbOOm

I've tried a Fosgate 1F cap that previously was never used. Cappy no worky.


----------



## sirbOOm

Beckerson1 said:


> Good lord that is awful


Doesn't change when I rev the engine, not alternator whine. This is just "I do not want to work in this vehicle whine" or something.

I tell ya, every time I hear that noise I get closer and closer to taking the amp off the wall, taping it to my big tree in the backyard, and pointing my Beretta shot gun at it... and pulling the trigger. But then I'd have a very nice tree with a chunk taken out of it... nevermind the amp... and a criminal record. :mean:


----------



## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> Doesn't change when I rev the engine, not alternator whine. This is just "I do not want to work in this vehicle whine" or something.
> 
> I tell ya, every time I hear that noise I get closer and closer to taking the amp off the wall, taping it to my big tree in the backyard, and pointing my Beretta shot gun at it... and pulling the trigger. But then I'd have a very nice tree with a chunk taken out of it... nevermind the amp... and a criminal record. :mean:


OK here is the fix:

Take aluminum foil and make a little hat for the amp. This should eliminate the crazy communication between your amp and the aliens above.

Seriously though this would make me insane . I was going mad with my issue (not as bad as that but was similar in nature). It's as if the amp is causing RFI/RMI and its picking that up on the RCA inputs. It's like any shielding it has, is no more.


----------



## sirbOOm

Well what's funny is these Leviathans are known to reduce FM radio reception when on... and it does significantly in my vehicle which, from the factory, picks up less stations than my 1968 Lincoln Continental's 46 year old radio and still working mast antenna with no noise. 

I spent a lot of time over the weekend under my truck examining the floor pan and where I might put a hole for a bolt that is most convenient and still the right piece of metal for the job. I noticed the following, which was interesting:
- Seat mount bolts are actually part of a plate that wedges against the actual floor pan with what looks like a couple two/three rivets. The seat bots are not going into the frame or any otherwise substantial piece of metal.
- The screws for the bolts that hole down the jack are probably the most ideal OEM bolt location. There appears to be two layers of metal there which is consistent with that bolt also being base anchored with another piece of metal, but you'll need a very "long shafted" ring terminal to not cause any interference with the jack if you intend to put it back in the OEM location. I have not tried this location myself but I don't like the idea of the two layers of metal which both look maybe painted before the riveting??
- When the floor goes up toward the back wall from the foot area there is flat, exposed metal that will be out of the way of being seen from even laying under the car and easy to access to construct a proper bolt/nut setup. This is also under the carpet and the same situation on both sides of the car. Downside is that you're exposing the bolt to the elements but do your shaving of paint, get bare metal, then spray the underside and inside with bedliner or paint immediately after cleaning the area and you should be fine.
- I did try grounding to the bolts that the rear window motor bolts to and they worked which is really convenient but if you look at the construction of the rear wall you see that it is riveted in a bunch of places and has some sort of seal/glue in-between the meeting pieces of metal and I'd be more inclined to have the ground on the main floor pan instead vs. something that'd have the ground travel through rivet work. It may make no difference... but doesn't solve my noise issue so I haven't committed to it.
- SimplicityInSound looks to have found a grounding point that worked totally on the inside of the vehicle behind where the OEM rear left and right seatbelt rollers are. See their build log for a picture. In the picture it is a bolt, not a self tapper.

Now... I am willing to drill one hole in my floor for a ground, which I would have normally done if I wasn't all hibbity dibbity about doing more work than necessary with the ground wire back to the battery - thinking maybe the crazy SPL guys have something... wrong. If that doesn't eliminate the noise, I will not continue attempting to find "the perfect ground" for this amp and I will be forced to move on. I will be buying a single PDX 4-channel (I need two) and hooking it up sometime this coming weekend to see if it operates noise free in my truck. If it does, I will acquire the matching set I need as budget allows. In the mean time I still have a working (I hope) Minotaur, a Soundstreem t-channel, and then that PDX if I get it. 

At this point I'm committed to just seeing if I can get the Leviathan to work out of principle.


----------



## sirbOOm

Oh, and I actually try wrapping the Leviathan in aluminum foil Sunday night, haha. That didn't quite work.


----------



## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> Oh, and I actually try wrapping the Leviathan in aluminum foil Sunday night, haha. That didn't quite work.


Dang!!!! They must have upgraded lol

Anymore now-a-days it would almost be just as easy to run a dedicated ground from your rear grounding point to the front chassis ground point. I will say that you are correct in thinking every piece of metal is 100% painted. No matter the amount of layers. They do this to prevent rust/ect... Hence why anymore you can consider chassis ground to be the equivalent of 4 gauge wire or less.

In my case, due to potential power requirements, I will have to run 2 power and 2 ground runs from front to rear and I am going to have a dedicated distribution hub up front. I will be able to completely remove my rear chassis ground as at this point (when I get this built) it isn't needed. Chassis ground up front will go to the hub and also a direct ground to the alt mounting bracket is my engine to chassis ground right now. Hence why I said earlier that my entire audio system is 99.99999% on its own circuit. Just my antenna's amp is grounded to chassis and I have a feeling that when/if I replace this my radio quality (signal) will increase as well.


----------



## sirbOOm

Beckerson1 said:


> Dang!!!! They must have upgraded lol
> 
> Anymore now-a-days it would almost be just as easy to run a dedicated ground from your rear grounding point to the front chassis ground point. I will say that you are correct in thinking every piece of metal is 100% painted. No matter the amount of layers. They do this to prevent rust/ect... Hence why anymore you can consider chassis ground to be the equivalent of 4 gauge wire or less.


Considering I already have a big negative wire running along with my + wire, I am thinking of grounding my ground wire from the rear to a bolt welded to the frame. Then grounding the nearby body to that same point. Then upgrading my frame ground wire to the battery to 1/0 which would be easy.

That does a sort of "big 3" just in the rear of the vehicle. But I don't want to do this work if I just have a hopeless amp.


----------



## Dmack

Hey, your 360.3 is not switched to Balanced, is it? It's worth a look. Also, have you tried grounding the shield on your RCAs?


----------



## sirbOOm

360 is not on balanced mode. Switching to balanced makes it even worse.

I have not tried grounding an RCA. I feel as if I shouldn't have to be doing this with a $1K (when new) amplifier and I have zero interest in having amps on my wall with jumper wires running all over to solve a noise issue that should be managed internally in the amp. I will be trying that tonight to see if the noise goes away. If it does, then Stephen Mantz can tell me what he will do to fix the amplifier so I do not have to jump wires.


----------



## Dmack

Oh, I agree. Like I said, I had zero noise issues, other than floor hiss. I have to believe it is a bad component in the amp. Do you not have another amp you can just wire up to see if it's the same with another amp?


----------



## sirbOOm

Yes'r, I do and all I get with it is a little bit of tolerable hiss with other amps. I'll take that hiss that you can't hear past a couple clicks of volume anyway to avoid spending nearly $2,000 (retail, anyway) on that Alpine perfect fit setup that's not even fully baked yet with a Maestro - the PAC unit adapter in its place sucks comparatively.


----------



## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> Considering I already have a big negative wire running along with my + wire, I am thinking of grounding my ground wire from the rear to a bolt welded to the frame. Then grounding the nearby body to that same point. Then upgrading my frame ground wire to the battery to 1/0 which would be easy.
> 
> That does a sort of "big 3" just in the rear of the vehicle. But I don't want to do this work if I just have a hopeless amp.


Much agree'd


----------



## sirbOOm

Just found this poist: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1919866-post19.html

Guy having same issue as I have been.


----------



## sirbOOm

I just called RF about this to see what they had to say. They suggested as a first step to separate hte 360.3 physically from the Leviathan. Right now they are inches apart and always have been in these scenarios due to the limitations of my amp board.

Meanwhile, they are going to research the ZED amp and may have some other ideas tomorrow. And I also got a nice lecture about who actually founded car audio amplifiers after mentioning the Mantz name... haha. Someone named Rockford or Fosgate???


----------



## Notloudenuf

Some Jim Fosgate guy or something...who knows..   :laugh:


----------



## sirbOOm

Just to joke with the the guy I initially spoke with who hadn't really heard much of ZED amps or Stephen Mantz I was like, yeah back in the 70's or something some guy name Stephen Mantz and another named Robert Zeff invented the car audio amplifier. I had no idea of that was true... and he goes "See I was led to believe it was a guy named Fosgate in a garage in Arizona" or something close to that. I think he took me serious. Haha. 

Who did come up with the car audio amp? Was it really Fosgate?


----------



## JoshHefnerX

Is that leviathan class d? Was it not making that noise before the truck started?


----------



## JoshHefnerX

My buddy is a licensed HAM operator and said to try putting some ferrites on both the power and rca lines. Said it sounded like some interference. 

Also, see how much of that you can run from another batt - not using the trucks electrical. have you been able to bench test the 360/leviathan together? Perhaps there's something in the car - fuel pump or relay somewhere causing an issue that the amp is more susceptible to.

Josh


----------



## sirbOOm

It's class d. What's a ferrite?


----------



## JoshHefnerX

https://www.google.com/search?q=fer...a=X&ei=7T6GVIbKNoXqoASG6oLwCA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw

It almost sounds like old am radio when you drive under a power line.


vid had a whistle in it before the start. was that the amp or is it quiet key on engine off?

Josh


----------



## JoshHefnerX

see if you can isolate the if it's the power or signal side w/ the external batt or bench test.


----------



## Beckerson1

JoshHefnerX said:


> https://www.google.com/search?q=fer...a=X&ei=7T6GVIbKNoXqoASG6oLwCA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw
> 
> It almost sounds like old am radio when you drive under a power line.
> 
> 
> vid had a whistle in it before the start. was that the amp or is it quiet key on engine off?
> 
> Josh


Isn't a ferrite basically a weak magnet of sorts?


----------



## sirbOOm

The video doesn't do the noise perfect justice, especially when the truck is off plus having the hood up made for a lot more engine noise than when down... learned that when taking the video, was surprising. It doesn't pick up too well the reer reer when the vehicle is off. When you turn the vehicle on, the amp gets up to 14.9V vs. 12.6V when the alternator charges the batter back up after the start. If you let the car idle long enough the variable current alternator goes back down to 13.6 or 12 depending on where the battery is at. In this case, it went as high as it'll go in voltage because I have been hitting on the battery pretty good doing tests. Anywho... point being is that it makes more noise with more voltage and that's what you're hearing. The noise does not follow the engine rpm and reduces as voltage reduces from the alternator. No turning on or off of accessories changes the noise other than as a direct result of slight temporary voltage drop from an accessory turning on typical of any vehicle. It does change slightly right when I hit the gas but the voltage when I hit the gas increases slightly by .2 or .3 along with it. I really don't think it's alternator whine because why would it not follow the engine RPM and why would it make noise when the car is off? Ya know? I can correlated intensity of noise to voltage though... which in my car at least seems to be dependent on whatever the alternator variable voltage system feels like doing. I drove once to Florida in my 2011 Silverado blasting the stereo I had on my way to Spring Break Nationals and that truck never went over 12.6V from south Georgia all the way to SBN until I got gas... started it, it went to 14.X volts for about 10 min then back down to 12. This truck tends to over around 13.6 volts when stereo equipment is on and never drops much more than .1 or .2 even if I am cranking a subwoofer to kingdom come (measured with an actual voltage meter, not the dash voltage meter which reacts as slow as a sloth).

I'm aware of about 5 different 2014+ Silverado/Sierras we've done at our shop and 3 had a RF 360.3 processor (they're selling like hotcakes lately) and zero noise from either of them. We ground to the floor typically where it comes up from the foot area going vertical which is easy access from the bottom of a truck for a nice 5/16 bolt and associated lock washers and nuts and all those giblets. I did not do this because I like to make things more freakin' complicated than they need to be, I guess. Haha... plus those systems were about 1,000-1,200 watts at the highest RMS output that the amps could have done and usually a JL or Alpine 5-channel or in one case an old Planet Audio and Clarion amp if I remember correctly... I think the 4-channel was A/B in that one. Mine has a potenetial of 190x6 + 1300x1 which is 2540 at rated power and I already know the Minotaur will do 100 watts more than rated power at 4 ohm with a sine wave according to two people's tests now... strong amp. Both amps have coils in them the size of a flood light, too... and I noticed they make a whine sound from those coils and Steve Mantz said that's normal. I dunno if that's correlated or not. Plexi doesn't stop "electronic sounds" like aluminum casing would.


----------



## sirbOOm

Tried grounding an RCA no difference other than a new hissy sound. Only grounded one RCA... more? Tried moving the Levi to the opposite side of the car, no difference. Tried both, no difference.


----------



## sirbOOm

I noticed when I roll window down or turn lights off the noise changes for a second then continues. What's that?


----------



## sirbOOm

JoshHefnerX said:


> https://www.google.com/search?q=fer...a=X&ei=7T6GVIbKNoXqoASG6oLwCA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw
> 
> It almost sounds like old am radio when you drive under a power line.
> 
> 
> vid had a whistle in it before the start. was that the amp or is it quiet key on engine off?
> 
> Josh


I have one of those wrapped around my copper lines at the water heater. Never knew what that was until now. Wonder what they're there for.


----------



## sirbOOm

Fixing the Prius ground loop hum without sacrificing audio quality. | Streaming Freebies

Success with ferrites. Has as link to get them too. Guess I can try but should I REALLY need ferrites... friggin' hope not. I don't have a Hybrid car... that's for sure. My wallet is drained from gas station visits. Probably should have kept my Fiesta. HAha.


----------



## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> Fixing the Prius ground loop hum without sacrificing audio quality. | Streaming Freebies
> 
> Success with ferrites. Has as link to get them too. Guess I can try but should I REALLY need ferrites... friggin' hope not. I don't have a Hybrid car... that's for sure. My wallet is drained from gas station visits. Probably should have kept my Fiesta. HAha.


Hmmm. Worth a shot


----------



## WhereAmEye?

Post #363 beat me to it. Whoops.


----------



## sirbOOm

I can jump a remote wire with a full 12v+ whatever the amp is getting and still get the noise. Honestly, I cannot phathom how a remote wire can cause noise. It's sole purpose is to turn the amp on and, when it has no voltage, the amp turns off. No amp needs 12V to get the point to turn on and off... but I'm happy to be wrong.

My 360 doesn't have a low voltage remote turn on situation... max 1 amp of output but the voltage is expected.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

You work in one of the nicest car audio places in Georgia.
Can you not pull the amp, place it on a bench and give it a full test.
If that comes back clean on the bench. Then your connections to the amp could be faulty. 

Have you ever tried that?


----------



## sirbOOm

Our bench was down for a bit. Back up last time I was in but I was installing all day and I'm not there for my own purposes. But I'm gonna bench it with the 360 tomorrow actually. Just haven't gone for that because I was hoping to find the issue in the car where it'll be. 

EDIT: Come to think of it, I sort of already have. I've used an independent battery twice in testing and still got the noise. Granted... I was using the signal from the car so moot but... half there. Same exact noise... now I know the head unit was grounded elsewhere so that can cause problems but... same exact noise.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is my head unit... I mean... why would it be - speakers connected to the signal wire I have going to the back of the car exhibit no noise but why would other amps not have the issue. That's why I haven't done a full bench. 

I also wouldn't be surprised if the 360.3 just does not like ZED Leviathans...

Oh forgot to mention I was fiddling with the RCAs I was using for this test and when doing so I got clicking clatter white noisy sounds whenever moving the RCA. Tried a different set of RCAs, same thing. Wondering if maybe all along my ZED's RCA inputs aren't up to snuff... they look fine through the plexi but what do I know.


----------



## Golden Ear

sirbOOm said:


> hopeless amp.


Just sayin


----------



## sirbOOm

Haha. Well after this Amazon Prime episode of The Walking Dead I'm gonna do me a bench test outside of the car.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

My 360 is dead quiet too. You said it's not quiet when it's in another car on another battery, so I'd say we've eliminated your truck and environment. 

I'm not an engineer but my understanding of class d is that there's a switching speed that at least 10-20 times as high as the highest frequency that would be played. On higher quality amps it may be higher. So you're amp is switching it's power supply on and off in the low rf band. 

You've also stated that it's voltage dependent - it would be interesting to have a power supply where you could control the voltage precisely. 

I guess my point here is that there may be something "noisy" in the amp causing it's own interference and it gets worse when the voltage gets higher - being noise.

Which would also follow along w/ it sounding like the old am radio and causing reception problems w/ your terrestrial radio... 

But this is all a guess, I'm not an electrical engineer. I only know enough to be dangerous.

If there are any engineers on here or possibly old HAM operators in your area have a talk with them, that's all those guys deal with. Maybe they have some equipment that can detect that.

Josh


----------



## sirbOOm

Well I decided sleep is unnecessary.

I benched it on my desk in my office at home using a battery, some wire, and so forth.

While the noise is not as loud, I am indeed getting the base noise with the 360 plugged into it or not. It's a consistent reeeeeeee rrrr eeeeeeerrrr. I tried videoing it but I'm not picking it up well with my iPhone. It's MUCH louder and apparent in the car. I hope the noise on my desk vs. in the car are related vs. independent. I put my Soundstream amp on this "bench" and it made zero noise with or without the 360 connected to it.

I also learned a 360.3 tuning CD does not like being put into a computer. It made my computer's CD-ROM drive go absolutely ape **** so I had to put it into a CD player that I have not used in like 3 years to setup the 360 for the high-level input coming from my little desktop amplifier which outputs 15 watts at 8-ohm and 30 at 4-ohm. I have no idea what OHM the 360.3 makes speakers see but either case I did the setup quickly so I could get to the music playing part and was able to play music so I had it setup. Either case same noise with or without the 360.3 connected to it. 

The noise is about as loud as it was when I first decided to send it to ZED - the noise I heard without any RCAs connected to the Leviathan but powered on and having speakers connected to it. Same noise as that. In my car, if you put the 360 before it the noise got crazy. But on the bench the noise only changed slightly - a little louder more apparent but not very loud at all still. If you put the speaker up to your ear you really can hear the definition of the noise same noise as in the car and from across the room you can hear the base eeeeeeeeeeeeee sound that is always underlying - the sound you hear in the video in an earlier post.

So anywho I decided to open up the amp because at this point I can't make it worse.

This is what I found that "didn't look right". I noticed this flashing a flashlight through the amp cover when it came back from ZED but figured that was the bit that he changed. I sent it back to him and asked him to look at that and I guess he never did because he did nothing but imply that my Levi was fine when it sent it back to me.

Anyone know what that sort of "somehow affected looking" chip is? The material you see that seems sort of "disconnected" isn't metal. Looks like some sort of glue or goo. The blacked traces don't look bad at all without a bright DSLR flash blowing them out but I find that offputting, too. But if you let the camera flash anywhere on the board you see the same thing really. Without the flash it looks all uniform and normal and such. I can see the same sort of thing in the Minotaur so I am thinking maybe that's normal. But I have no idea what I'm looking at...


----------



## sirbOOm

Did some research and this chip appears to be a "rectifier".

ES3D-E3/9AT | ES3D Series 200 V 3 A 20 ns Surface Mount Ultrafast Rectifier - DO-214AB | VISHAY - Future Electronics

rec·ti·fi·er
ˈrektəˌfīər/Submit
noun
an electrical device that converts an alternating current into a direct one by allowing a current to flow through it in one direction only.

Perhaps it is "not working" and allowing current to backflow into my processor??????? Thus perhaps causing said noise???????


----------



## captainobvious

Sorry I haven't seen and responded thus far. Bertholomey just asked me to drop in and check out the noise issues you have been experiencing.

The noise issue I had with one of my Leviathan III's was completely different from yours. However, I would like to have you try a very specific set of troubleshooting steps to completely determine if this Leviathan is the culprit.

First, forget about the 360.3. We need to test one piece of equipment at a time to ensure that each piece is functioning properly before putting another one in the signal path.

1. Either get a bench power supply or use a known good, large car/truck battery. If you use a battery, completely disconnect it from any other sources (take it out of the vehicle and sit it on the bench).

2. Connect the amplifier to the battery/supply 12v+ and - connections along with a circuit breaker or inline fuse (You still want to protect it) on the 12v+ connection. I prefer a circuit breaker as it's extremely easy to apply and cut power while testing.

3. Connect a pair of speakers to the first channels of the amplifier (1 and 2).

3a. (We do not have any rcas or inputs going to the amplifier yet)

4. Keep amp gains down, crossovers defeated and turn on the power
-Do you hear any of the oscillation noise? What happens when you increase the gain? If not, try outputs 3/4, then 5/6.
IF you DO hear noise, it's a bad amplifier

5. If you didn't hear noise above, try putting a pair of speakers on all of the output pairs to make the amplifier see a load on all 6 channels.
-Do you hear noise now? What happens when you increase the gain? If so, it's a bad amplifier

6. If no noise from driving all channels with no input signal, lets move on to the next step. 

7. Use an ISOLATED source to supply audio input to the amplifier. My preference is a simple iPhone/iPod as it runs off a battery. Use a (new) basic headphone to stereo RCA cable to test with and connect it to channel pairs 1/2.

8. Run through the steps again with the audio source connected. You can use a digital silence/0 bit track for testing so that you're not blasting audio and can easier identify what you're hearing.

8a. To load all channels of the amp, you can use Y connectors and supply the other channels with additional RCAs.

9. Do you notice any oscillation noise with these tests? If so, you have a bad amplifier. If not, move to the next step.

10. Now that you've confirmed that the amplifier is good with an isolated source and on all outputs, check the crossover sections by enabling them and seeing what you get. (If you run the amps with crossovers defeated, then you can skip this)

11. If you've reached this point, the amplifier does not appear to be a problem in and of itself. Next steps would be to troubleshoot the installation first. You may have a difference in ground potential between the different devices connected. You may have a poor ground location as well. Use a DMM amd some very long leads. Connect the negative lead to the negative lead of the battery that's installed in the truck. Connect the positive lead to your potential ground location and then measure your impedance. You should be getting a direct short or _extremely _low resistance. If you're not grounding at the same location for all of your audio components, you'll want to check each ground location you're using to make sure they're seeing the same.


----------



## Tnutt19

Sounds to me it is a bad amplifier as he already essentially performed this test just not in this order.

As for the question of why the noise that was audible without the 360.3 became slightly louder with the 360.3 while benching that would most likely be because the 360.3 was sending higher voltage into the amplifiers RCA path. 

I would be curious to seem him perform this test though to see if it is bad on all channels or just 2.


----------



## sirbOOm

Thanks for the advice. I've already done what you suggested essentially. On the bench didn't matter which RCA ports I plugged into, no difference in whether I get noise or not or type of noise. It still makes the base eeeeeeeeee noise out of speakers without RCAs and if you put an RCA into it the noise gets a bit louder on the bench and goes absolutely ape **** in the car (this is what concerns me the most - it's worse in many different ways in the car and is only that bad when the 360.3 is in play). That is preceisely why I haven't just gone out and bought another amp set already (and money). I understand I could be hearing "switching" or the normal sound of the amp maybe but that's not acceptable for a $1,000 amplifier hooked up completely independent of a vehicle on a bench, especially.

I just got an email from Mantz and he said again that the amp was fine on his bench. I'm resending him the above pictures now which I guess he was not able to see. I don't have a good enough macro sort of lens to get a great photo of these little things. I'm half thinking about renting a car and taking it apart a bit to test this amplifier in it, hahah. No... that's just wrong.


----------



## sirbOOm

Well... I was hoping this wouldn't happen to me... I think the line of acceptable ways to talk to a customer who is having a problem with a $1K amplifier was just crossed with an email response from Mantz to me. Maybe he was just being sarcastic, but it was inappropriate. Not going to post the whole convo here and be a baby about it spending the rest of my day attacking him... you can PM me if you really want to see the emails but I got pissed instantly, basically was "talked down to" because I responded to a question of his saying that I didn't know what an SMD part meant. He responded with my comment highlighted in yellow and says "My point exactly" above it! Really? He's the expert, not me, and he just acted as if I bothered him showing him these pictures. I know the guy is busy but damn. He sent a second email seconds later informing me what's in the photos is a hand soldered diode that is why it looks not so good but it has nothing to do with noise. That's all he had to send. Excuse me for not being at his level. Excuse me for having an issue with his amplifier design and no other amplifier. Excuse me.

I assumed SMD meant Surface Mount Diode but I'm not going to proclaim knowledge I don't have to him.

Uuuuugg this experience has taken a year or two off my life.


----------



## Tnutt19

From everything you have posted it still sounds to me like the amplifier is the issue.
It was creating noise out of the car in a situation that your other amplifier did not. Something is goofy with the amplifier.

I would try a different amplifier in the car, would be nice if a friend or someone has one you can try.


----------



## bkjay

Surface Mount Device. It can be a diode, transistor and so on. I get your point though. No need for him to be rude.


----------



## diy.phil

oh wow that's a pretty bad representative there. Always vote these people out !!!


----------



## sirbOOm

Tnutt19 said:


> From everything you have posted it still sounds to me like the amplifier is the issue.
> It was creating noise out of the car in a situation that your other amplifier did not. Something is goofy with the amplifier.
> 
> I would try a different amplifier in the car, would be nice if a friend or someone has one you can try.


I have tried other amps - JBL GTO EZ amps (Class A/B) and Soundstream amps (Class D) and neither of them made noise. But... my fear is I go out, get a set of amps with close enough power, then find out the noise is somehow still there with those higher powered amplifiers. All of the other amps I've tried pale in comparison to what the ZED is supposed to be capable of power wise so... makes me nervous. I can't afford to screw around right now. Let's be honest, I'm trying to save for a 2016 Mustang GT.


----------



## sirbOOm

> oh wow that's a pretty bad representative there. Always vote these people out !!!


That wasn't a representative - that was Stephen Mantz himself.


----------



## diy.phil

yeah we still call that a representative man... I can't believe he did that to you.


----------



## captainobvious

sirbOOm said:


> Well... I was hoping this wouldn't happen to me... I think the line of acceptable ways to talk to a customer who is having a problem with a $1K amplifier was just crossed with an email response from Mantz to me. Maybe he was just being sarcastic, but it was inappropriate. Not going to post the whole convo here and be a baby about it spending the rest of my day attacking him... you can PM me if you really want to see the emails but I got pissed instantly, basically was "talked down to" because I responded to a question of his saying that I didn't know what an SMD part meant. He responded with my comment highlighted in yellow and says "My point exactly" above it! Really? He's the expert, not me, and he just acted as if I bothered him showing him these pictures. I know the guy is busy but damn. He sent a second email seconds later informing me what's in the photos is a hand soldered diode that is why it looks not so good but it has nothing to do with noise. That's all he had to send. Excuse me for not being at his level. Excuse me for having an issue with his amplifier design and no other amplifier. Excuse me.
> 
> I assumed SMD meant Surface Mount Diode but I'm not going to proclaim knowledge I don't have to him.
> 
> Uuuuugg this experience has taken a year or two off my life.



If the amp is making noise on the bench with no RCA input, its bad, plain and simple. He can either step up to the plate and actually make an attempt to rectify the situation through an actual repair, or hopefully simply provide a new unit.
Talking down to customers is a surefire way to LOSE customers. I'd simply state that the amplifier is most certainly making the noise on your test bench with no rca input voltage applied and basic speakers connected (everything outside of the car). Tell him you'd either like a new replacement or a refund. Shouldn't be a problem if he finds "nothing wrong" with the amplifier.


----------



## captainobvious

Personally, I'd be wanting a refund though. I tend to not want to give my hard earned dollars to someone who feels they're doing me a favor, no matter how good the product may appear to be.


----------



## captainobvious

sirbOOm said:


> I have tried other amps - JBL GTO EZ amps (Class A/B) and Soundstream amps (Class D) and neither of them made noise. But... my fear is I go out, get a set of amps with close enough power, then find out the noise is somehow still there with those higher powered amplifiers. All of the other amps I've tried pale in comparison to what the ZED is supposed to be capable of power wise so... makes me nervous. I can't afford to screw around right now. Let's be honest, I'm trying to save for a 2016 Mustang GT.



Let me be frank...do yourself a favor and go with different amplifiers. It's not worth the headache and you will be surprised about that "output" of the Zeds vs others. Dollar for dollar, I'd strongly recommend the Mosconi AS series, or if you want to go lower cost, look at the SS REF's. If you want smaller size, go with the JL HD's. I've played with enough amps and those would be my highest recommendations.


----------



## etroze

Yep the last few posts is really turning me away from buying any of his amps that need to be checked out specifically by him. Don't really care how good the product is there is always someone else out there that will do just as good of a job without being a jerk about it.


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## captainobvious

Don't get me wrong, when they work they perform well. One of my Leviathan's never had an issue and was great, although I was honestly expecting more output from it. 

They are beautiful amps but I'd relate them to something like a Jaguar. Sure they're pretty, but just pray you don't have an issue with it.


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## etroze

I'm on the same page, I have a buddy using 2 of them right now and so far sounds like he loves them. I just can't believe a guy trying to make money from a product would treat a person with total disrespect and talk down to them like that. Sorry for the derailment I'll get off my soap box now.


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## sirbOOm

Best I can do right now is amps from my shop and we have Alpine and JL and Audison and Hertz (no way, don't like their Class D stuff) and Kenwood and other brands I would not really consider. Anywho... the best I can afford is Alpine PDX or JL XD, not HD. Audisons won't fit where I need them and I've had Kenwood's amps before and I'm not in love. I can probably get an Arc XDI 1200.6 but wouldn't be able to get a matching subwoofer amplifier that works for me (need 600 wattifications at 4-ohms, not 2-ohms). So we'll see. This is just another big spend when I already spent. Pisses me off.


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## sirbOOm

I'm just confused. Does he not want to know WHY this amp is doing this?

I mean... let's say it's not the amp. Well, I can't figure out what is wrong with my INSTALL that could cause this and everything points to the amp and he DID INDEED fix something. 

I need like a second car or another Leviathan to rule out my own...

Alas... my other car is a 1968 Lincoln and that's not really an option.


----------



## sirbOOm

EDIT: Double Internet Brain Fart Post


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## sirbOOm

Oh boy. The truck wants an oil change soon. First time at dealer with mods. Eeeeek. 

I'd do it myself but the thing takes 8 friggin quarts and they do it free for two years.


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## JoshHefnerX

that D## silkscreened on the board signifies a diode number ## . The diode is like a 1-way valve for electricity. Thus how it turns your alternating current into dc. There's a couple of guys on here that fix amps. Trickyricky is one of them. They may be able to help you on that.

Josh


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## ntimd8n-k5

I just want to reiterate what Steve said, those amps are great UNLESS you have a problem with them. This current line has been problem ridden since v1. I had a set of the Levi v1s that were on the original preorder when he started doing amps for himself again. One of them needed the ICs changed because of turn on pop and there was a significant amount of those that had that problem. He is a smart dude and knows his stuff, but you can defintely tell you are talking to an engineer and designer when conversing with him. I don't think he means to come of brash, he just does.

On another note, after I dealt with the customer service and quality control that those v1s had, I decided that I would probably never own another Zed amp again.

I echo what everybody else is saying, get another amp.


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## sirbOOm

Well I talked to a guy who used to repair car audio amps at Sound Sensations, very helpful. Had me do a continuity test between the ground of the RCAs and the T1 lead of the transformer. I got complete continuity so that's a good thing.

In doing so, I found a little disc capacitor that had one of its leads disconnected. I've seen this only once before as the outcome of someone having reversed wire polarity in the terminals on accident blowing a 60 AMP fuse and this exact same looking cap was found floating around loose in the amp. That amp didn't work anymore. This was about a year or so ago in a PPI amp, the ones popular on this forum. He made a boo boo right in front of me, haha. No... I did not reverse polarity EVER. Yes my + and - wires are the same color but they are different brands Stinger and MECA and are easily told apart plus I was being extra careful anyway just because they were the same color. Never popped any fuses with this amp.









I resoldered it back on took a second. I guess this could have happened in shipping at some point but to think Mantz left it like that baffles me... I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Who the hell knows what it does, though... only him I guess. We tested the cap and its fine... just came disconnected probably because it's at such a goofy angle looks somehow pushed over as if on on purpose. Nothing is around it. Certainly wasn't me... I touched nothing but the two leads I was instructed to do so.

I also found this interesting little thingy with a phillips screwdriver. I wonder what that is, any ideas? Wonder if that is what aligns timing or something hahahah. I haven't played with it... but never seen anything like that found it funny.










Guess I'll get new amps... Visa, here I come.


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## sirbOOm

Okay so I worked a little more on it with the help of the guy (not naming because he doesn't do this anymore and doesn't want to). Anyway, that little dial I had in the photo above. That is a variable resister that changes the oscillating frequency of the pulse width modulator. Ubuhhhh... deep breath... just almost said flux capacitor. Okay...

So I decided to turn this dial. In doing so, the noise changed. Hmm.

I noticed that the noise was coming from the transformer (the colored windings in top right quadrant in photo below). I was told that a transformer should not be making noise, especially noise I can easily hear. This same exact noise translates to my speaker on my bench. Quieter, but same noise. Hmmm...










If you press lightly on certain parts of the transformer, you can reduce the noise. What is this noise you say? Apparently the noise is one or more of the little wires vibrating really really fast evidently depending on current. Hmmmmmmmmmm.... remember I said the noise changes with voltage!? And when that happens, the coating on these wires could have worn somewhere and that can cause all kinds of problems, including maybe the noise in my car. Also any of the enamel insulation on the vertical ferrite cores, noise chokes (no idea what these are or where they are on the amp but just repeating for color)... same coating getting worn can cause issues there too.

Anyway, I was able to adjust that white knob thing to a consistent point where I do not hear any noise from the transformer or my speaker. Interesting.

It's almost midnight. I'm debating whether or not to go out to my car and rig everything back up and see if I get any noise in my car now. I'm probably going to wait until tomorrow evening because I do not want to make any dumb mistakes.

I learned a lot about amplifiers in the past few hours... was really cool. I guess there's a silver lining. But bottom line... my transformer coil thing apparently should not be making the squeel sound it is and if you go back a bunch of posts you'll note that I had mentioned I heard this squeal sound before sending it to Steve calling it something like a tube TV and Steve told me on the phone (if I didn't mention it back then) that the squeal is normal. According to the guy I was working with, it is not normal. 

I also called my father who is an electrical and aeronautical engineer working in an area of a certain company that has certain curtains of secrecy, let's say. He also told me that such a thing should not be making noise if it is well made. He didn't go into details but... I find it interesting two people told me the thing isn't supposed to be making any sort of noise and it is. Granted, these folks didn't design this amp and don't know if in this case such a noise is normal but have YOU ever heard a tube tv sort of squeal coming from any car audio amplifier? I have not... but I haven't been near them all.


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## sirbOOm

Oh and he also noted that the little chip numbered IC801 is the "PWM IC" (no idea what that means) thats located under the white knob I described above is what controls everything in the power supply. The chip looks fine. I assume PWC = Pulse Width Modulator and IC = Internal Controller. I'm also realizing that my current career field is not nearly as fun as electronics engineering... ****.


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## JoshHefnerX

pwm would be your frequency controller in the power supply. Kinda like a sine wave generator. Outside of tubes warming up and relays and fans I've never heard electronics make noise... And those really are mechanical objects. Unless, there's some serious power involved. Like when the ham guys hook up a 1kw transmitter amp or the airbase nearby ramps up their radar....

Sounds to me like Zed didn't or didn't want to look that amp over very well.

Josh


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## sirbOOm

Steve responded to my email back to him calling him out (professionally...) for being rude. A good way to respond, IMO, so credit where credit is due. I don't want to be bashing him... just don't want to be stuck with an amp that no worky.


More than happy to get this Leviathan working well.

Please return it and let me have for at least 1 week.

I shall hook it up in a car together with a Minotaur and check all out

R

Steve


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## Beckerson1

Well seems like there has been some good initial progress on this. I'm crossing my fingers that this fixes your issue or at least things can be worked out and you can get a fully functional amp without having to spend a bunch more money.

BTW

Even seeing the word PPI gives me horrible flashbacks to my issues with 3 certain amps.


----------



## euromade

sirbOOm, 

Very impressed with your project! I have a 2014 Z71, no Bose. When I bought the truck I replaced the stock speakers with the Rockford Punch (component in the front and 2-way in the back). Would like to add a small amp (Rockford PBR300x4) just to add more power to the speakers. I do not need a sub as I need the storage under the back seat. Cl

Question:
Would this scenario work: 
1. Buy the Metra Reverse Harness, send the signal from the factory unit to the PBR300X4 and then connect the speakers to the amp? I would use both sides of the harness to eliminate any factory wires cutting/splicing
2. Are the in-dash tweeters connected to front door speakers or do they connect to the factory head unit (factory green harness)?
3. Where did you get the 9 wire bundle? It would definitely help out with reducing the number of loose wires.
4. My plan is to mount the amp where the Kicker OEM upgrade goes (on top of the breaker box, next to the brake paddle)...any thoughts? 

My hopes are this amp would breath some life into these speakers as the OEM head unit is very underpowered.
Thank you much for any input.


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## sirbOOm

Okay Steve just emailed me in response to my findings and told me that disc capacitor thing was disconnected by him and just left there "just in case" (his words). That is why it looks pushed over. I resoldered it not knowing that so I'm sure he'll be annoyed by that but whatever. I was at a point where I was like... ooo, disconnected cap, let's try resoldering it and see what happens. What do I have to lose. So if he's hurt about it, sorry. Haha. Don't know why he'd leave it there to sit in a vibrating car so close to its solder point though... that just doesn't seem logical to me. Anywho...

He had me do an ground continuity test from the RCA ground to each speaker ground which is the two middle ports for each of the 3 speaker port banks (2-channels each). That was weird cuz I thought the one labeled - would be the ground but for channel 1, the one labeled - is a ground and the one labeled + for channel 2 is a ground apparently. I tried this with another amp, same thing so... learn something new.

Here's my results using a Fluke DMM:
Channel 1 -: 0.3 ohm
Channel 2 +: 0.3 ohm
Channel 3 -: 0.4 ohm
Channel 4 +: 0.3 ohm
Channel 5 -: 0.3 ohm
Channel 6 +: 0.2 ohm

I have no flippin idea if those numbers mean good or bad and I'm willing to bet the differences are just negligible margin of error but I just don't know. I sort of feel like maybe it's the transformer that is bad. I'm thinking this because I contacted my uncle who is a McIntosh home audio collector just to hear his thoughts (times of desparation, you call an uncle you only know through Facebook really who lives in Arizona). Anywho, he said he had a McIntosh amp that had a humming coil like mine that also emitted that hum through the speakers. Replaced/fixed coil, problem solved... hmm.


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## sirbOOm

Question:
Would this scenario work: 
1. Buy the Metra Reverse Harness, send the signal from the factory unit to the PBR300X4 and then connect the speakers to the amp? I would use both sides of the harness to eliminate any factory wires cutting/splicing. _I don't see how this is possible. I think here you're thinking of a T-harness which Kicker has made for their amp add on kit but the a-holes won't sell individually. You can only use the reverse harness if you intend on bypassing factory wiring altogether as far as I can tell. Well, you could use factory wiring at the radio which you removed from the OEM green connector but you'd still have to cut the pins off of the stock speaker wiring that you took out of the OEM green connector or take some jacket off those wires and solder speaker wire to them (don't cut anything so do the latter). In your case, the OEM wiring will be fine enough for your door speakers and you will need to run a new wire to the tweeter. If you are using passive crossovers then you will tap into factory wiring for the door speakers after the crossover and run a new wire from the crossover to the tweeters_
2. Are the in-dash tweeters connected to front door speakers or do they connect to the factory head unit (factory green harness)? *Yes. The dash speakers are wired in parallel with the door speakers so it is only one + and - wire that comes out of the radio for both speakers. The split happens on each side of the dash somewhere behind the fuse panel covers that you can take off. At the very least, you will need to run a new wire for your tweeters... 18AWG wire is fine. *
3. Where did you get the 9 wire bundle? It would definitely help out with reducing the number of loose wires. *Any respectable car audio shop will sell some brand of 9-wire. We now refuse to use anything but when tapping into factory signals as it is cleaner, safer, and a thousand times easier to deal with. It costs extra for the customer but leads to a more easily reliable and correct installation. You can get it on Amazon just type in Stinger Speedwire into Google. Cheaper options are usually made of aluminum which is junk.*
4. My plan is to mount the amp where the Kicker OEM upgrade goes (on top of the breaker box, next to the brake paddle)...any thoughts? *If it fits, guess it can't hurt to try. Seems like it'd be a noisy area but if Kicker can pull it off... maybe it's fine*

My hopes are this amp would breath some life into these speakers as the OEM head unit is very underpowered. _It's powered just right for the speakers the car came with, but yes._


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## Golden Ear

Kudos for trying so hard to figure out exactly what was wrong with the amp and even trying to fix it yourself! Your tenacity is inspiring. If I ever have a problem I'll be turning to this thread to troubleshoot it. Thanks for documenting every step!


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## sirbOOm

I am going to send the Levi back to Mantz one more time. I hope I get it back before I end up having to go to Chicago for Jesus day and at this point all I have amplifier-wise for full range is... a single 2-channel. So I guess I can wire up the Pioneers with their crossover and do a passive two way again (which is terrible with these speakers, IMO... they need the midrange in my car) and have music for the drive. Or just not go up to Chicago and actually get some time off of work that matters... haha. Family is work when you're Italian...


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## Huckleberry Sound

sirbOOm said:


> I am going to send the Levi back to Mantz one more time. I hope I get it back before I end up having to go to Chicago for Jesus day and at this point all I have amplifier-wise for full range is... a single 2-channel. So I guess I can wire up the Pioneers with their crossover and do a passive two way again (which is terrible with these speakers, IMO... they need the midrange in my car) and have music for the drive. Or just not go up to Chicago and actually get some time off of work that matters... haha. Family is work when you're Italian...


Question - Is there a local tech you can find to do this? Or is Martz the one person that has this one part? Can he send you a new part to have replaced?


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## sirbOOm

I called multiple electronic repair places in the area and either they don't do car audio amps any more (one guy was a total dick the second I said car audio) or they cannot repair Class D amplifiers. The guy I worked with got out of that business years ago and said I wouldn't find anyone local who'd be willing/able to fix it.


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## Dmack

Contact Shawn King.


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## sirbOOm

Best to not put someone's email and number on a forum... they end up in databases quick.


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## Dmack

sirbOOm said:


> Best to not put someone's email and number on a forum... they end up in databases quick.


But now you have the information and the post has been edited.


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## sirbOOm

I put the Levi in my truck over lunch and fired it up. Noise but different than before.

So I decided to adjust that adjustment noted earlier in the car. Interestingly, I can make the noise go away as far as I can tell when the car is off. I did that and I was like, sweet! There was someone mowing the lawn nearby so maybe I wasn't hearing enough but I called that progress. But then I started the car. Noise... adjust the knob again, make noise inaudible in my environment. Great. Turn car off... noise.

So I can make the amp shutup with the car on or the car off but not both...

Just thought I'd add. I'll be on its way to California... again... Thursday.

I'm still going to put some money together for new amps as this is ridiculous but am thinking maybe targeting some Mosconi AS amps which will just barely fit on the wall and I'd have to move my processor to the floor against the wall which is alright I guess.

Otherwise Alpine PDX and call it a day.


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## sirbOOm

Dmack said:


> But now you have the information and the post has been edited.


Haha, well you'd think but I immediately went off to a meeting after typing that so no, I don't.


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## shutmdown

sirboom, how many channels and watts do you need for your setup?


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## aholland1198

Although I would rather have a JL HD 900/5, my Alpine PDX V-9 has suited me very well. Small size, little heat, low current draw etc etc. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sirbOOm

aholland1198 said:


> Although I would rather have a JL HD 900/5, my Alpine PDX V-9 has suited me very well. Small size, little heat, low current draw etc etc.


So far, everyone that works at my shop prefers the Alpine vs. JL HD. Everyone for varying reasons and these people hear examples every day.


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## Darkrider

sirbOOm said:


> I put the Levi in my truck over lunch and fired it up. Noise but different than before.
> 
> So I decided to adjust that adjustment noted earlier in the car. Interestingly, I can make the noise go away as far as I can tell when the car is off. I did that and I was like, sweet! There was someone mowing the lawn nearby so maybe I wasn't hearing enough but I called that progress. But then I started the car. Noise... adjust the knob again, make noise inaudible in my environment. Great. Turn car off... noise.
> 
> So I can make the amp shutup with the car on or the car off but not both...
> 
> Just thought I'd add. I'll be on its way to California... again... Thursday.
> 
> I'm still going to put some money together for new amps as this is ridiculous but am thinking maybe targeting some Mosconi AS amps which will just barely fit on the wall and I'd have to move my processor to the floor against the wall which is alright I guess.
> 
> Otherwise Alpine PDX and call it a day.


I love Mosconi AS amps (I have 4 x AS200.4's), but I'll warn you that behind that seat might not be a great place for them because they utilize active cooling. _Unless_ you're looking for a heated back seat - I hear that's a new option on the High Country model.....

Have you thought about trying out the Rockford Power series? I ran the Power series when I first got my Camaro and they were great. They're not near on the level of my Mosconi's, but they are/were great amps. Lots of power, small footprint, didn't get extremely hot. I have a T800-4AD you could audition if you need.


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## sirbOOm

shutmdown said:


> sirboom, how many channels and watts do you need for your setup?


Within approximately 41" inches of width, I need 6 full range channels and 2/mono channes for a sub. 8 channels total.

4 full range channels must be 100 watts at 4 ohm or more.
2 full range channels must be damn close to or more than 200 watts at 4 ohm.
Sub amp needs to output between 600-750 watts at 4 ohm (total).

Why?


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## sirbOOm

Darkrider said:


> I love Mosconi AS amps (I have 4 x AS200.4's), but I'll warn you that behind that seat might not be a great place for them because they utilize active cooling. _Unless_ you're looking for a heated back seat - I hear that's a new option on the High Country model.....
> 
> Have you thought about trying out the Rockford Power series? I ran the Power series when I first got my Camaro and they were great. They're not near on the level of my Mosconi's, but they are/were great amps. Lots of power, small footprint, didn't get extremely hot. I have a T800-4AD you could audition if you need.


I've always wondered what Mosconi has that apparently makes them sound so good. Take them apart and there is nothing really special in them from what I've been told. I wonder what makes them better than RF or any other A/B? Would love to try it out but I think I can't fit all the RF amps that I need where they needs to go. Amp brands must be the same for me... it's a sickness. Well, I could move the processor to the floor like I said. Man that'd be a lot of RF stuff. Might get called a fan boy, haha.

I have the Leviathan because I wanted both power and SQ and, if I get this thing working in my vehicle, I have no doubts it'll sound damn near to or the same as a high end A/B amp in SQ-ability. But... I don't know. May never know. The right thing to do is get new amps regardless of fixing the thing but I just don't want to drop the scrilla. Hmmph.


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## captainobvious

sirbOOm said:


> Haha, well you'd think but I immediately went off to a meeting after typing that so no, I don't.


He's ShawnK on the forum. If you need email contact for him, just pm me


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## Darkrider

sirbOOm said:


> I've always wondered what Mosconi has that apparently makes them sound so good. Take them apart and there is nothing really special in them from what I've been told. I wonder what makes them better than RF or any other A/B? Would love to try it out but I think I can't fit all the RF amps that I need where they needs to go. Amp brands must be the same for me... it's a sickness. Well, I could move the processor to the floor like I said. Man that'd be a lot of RF stuff. Might get called a fan boy, haha.
> 
> I have the Leviathan because I wanted both power and SQ and, if I get this thing working in my vehicle, I have no doubts it'll sound damn near to or the same as a high end A/B amp in SQ-ability. But... I don't know. May never know. The right thing to do is get new amps regardless of fixing the thing but I just don't want to drop the scrilla. Hmmph.


I think what might make them "better" is headroom. The AS200.4's are rated at [email protected], [email protected] That would make the AS200.4 equal to what most brands consider a 1280W amp, but it's size would suggest it is around 2000-2500W.

I love big amps, but I liked Brian's Fusion at the Fall GTG and he was running JL HD's. Until hearing his car, I had never heard an HD amp'd car that I thought sounded good at all. All of 'em were plenty loud, but never good. Brian's car was pretty darn good IMO - I don't dig surround sound (MS-8), but the warmth was there.

The RF Power series amps aren't that large. They're class D amps. My T800-4AD was only 13.66" wide. One more point - The T400-4, T800-4AD, and T1000-1bdCP all use the exact same chassis. So if you ran those 3, you would have a total of 9 channels and be right at 41".

The Mosconi AS100.4 is 13.77" wide.

Good luck Nick. I don't envy your position right now. Amps were a rough path for me as well, but once I got my Mosconi's I knew I was done buying any other kinds of amps.


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## euromade

Thank you for you elaborate respond. I watched you video again and realized the other part of the harness was not the "female" plug, therefore my install would not go the way I anticipated. At the present time there is no way around cutting and splicing into the OEM wiring as no one makes the T-shape bypass harness. Talked to the Kikckers guys and they do not want to sell their harness separately, for some reason. Will talk to my GM dealer to see if he can source these connectors but I'm not too hopeful.


P.S. I'm not giving up as I do a lot of custom installs on boats. Mercury Marine is in some aspects just as bad as any company, however I have managed to find bypass harnesses over the years. Someone will eventually make one and throw it one ebay for less than $10!



sirbOOm said:


> Question:
> Would this scenario work:
> 1. Buy the Metra Reverse Harness, send the signal from the factory unit to the PBR300X4 and then connect the speakers to the amp? I would use both sides of the harness to eliminate any factory wires cutting/splicing. _I don't see how this is possible. I think here you're thinking of a T-harness which Kicker has made for their amp add on kit but the a-holes won't sell individually. You can only use the reverse harness if you intend on bypassing factory wiring altogether as far as I can tell. Well, you could use factory wiring at the radio which you removed from the OEM green connector but you'd still have to cut the pins off of the stock speaker wiring that you took out of the OEM green connector or take some jacket off those wires and solder speaker wire to them (don't cut anything so do the latter). In your case, the OEM wiring will be fine enough for your door speakers and you will need to run a new wire to the tweeter. If you are using passive crossovers then you will tap into factory wiring for the door speakers after the crossover and run a new wire from the crossover to the tweeters_
> 2. Are the in-dash tweeters connected to front door speakers or do they connect to the factory head unit (factory green harness)? *Yes. The dash speakers are wired in parallel with the door speakers so it is only one + and - wire that comes out of the radio for both speakers. The split happens on each side of the dash somewhere behind the fuse panel covers that you can take off. At the very least, you will need to run a new wire for your tweeters... 18AWG wire is fine. *
> 3. Where did you get the 9 wire bundle? It would definitely help out with reducing the number of loose wires. *Any respectable car audio shop will sell some brand of 9-wire. We now refuse to use anything but when tapping into factory signals as it is cleaner, safer, and a thousand times easier to deal with. It costs extra for the customer but leads to a more easily reliable and correct installation. You can get it on Amazon just type in Stinger Speedwire into Google. Cheaper options are usually made of aluminum which is junk.*
> 4. My plan is to mount the amp where the Kicker OEM upgrade goes (on top of the breaker box, next to the brake paddle)...any thoughts? *If it fits, guess it can't hurt to try. Seems like it'd be a noisy area but if Kicker can pull it off... maybe it's fine*
> 
> My hopes are this amp would breath some life into these speakers as the OEM head unit is very underpowered. _It's powered just right for the speakers the car came with, but yes._


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## syncal1

I have to say I applaud your patience because I would have hit the roof if I spent as long as you have dealing with a damaged product. I sure hope good ole fashion customer service shows up at your door step because of what you have had to deal with. I don't know what could be done to compensate you for the time you have spent dealing with this issue, but I sure hope you are being taken care of for the repair as well as shipping. I was going to purchase Zed products for my next adventure in my toy; however, I sure as hell will be looking else where. I hope the remainder of your project flows seamlessly. Good luck.


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## quality_sound

sirbOOm said:


> I put the Levi in my truck over lunch and fired it up. Noise but different than before.
> 
> So I decided to adjust that adjustment noted earlier in the car. Interestingly, I can make the noise go away as far as I can tell when the car is off. I did that and I was like, sweet! There was someone mowing the lawn nearby so maybe I wasn't hearing enough but I called that progress. But then I started the car. Noise... adjust the knob again, make noise inaudible in my environment. Great. Turn car off... noise.
> 
> So I can make the amp shutup with the car on or the car off but not both...
> 
> Just thought I'd add. I'll be on its way to California... again... Thursday.
> 
> I'm still going to put some money together for new amps as this is ridiculous but am thinking maybe targeting some Mosconi AS amps which will just barely fit on the wall and I'd have to move my processor to the floor against the wall which is alright I guess.
> 
> Otherwise Alpine PDX and call it a day.



I'm selling my 100.4 and 200.2 if you're interested. I was going to try a Levi but after seeing your issues, probably not. Might do a 100.2 and 200.4 now. I was really hoping to find a one amp solution but the combo of 8-ohm horns, 2-ohm midbasses, and a sub I haven't decided on is making that dream a bit difficult. 


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## sirbOOm

I'd need two 100.4's and, to be honest, I probably can't afford Mosconi's... even used. Not right now, anyway. Thanks, though.


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## quality_sound

I hear ya. End of year is always tough. I think my pricing is pretty good and I'm always willing to work with people though. 


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## sirbOOm

So I was up by Sound Sensations today and I tripped and fell into the stockroom where the Alpine stuff is and as I came to something was in my hands, purchased, and in my truck waiting for installation. I don't know what happened... all a blur.

But one thing I do know is...















































































































































And...

Something must have been wrong with my Leviathan sound quality wise - not just noise - because these sound WAY the fiddle sticks better. Like... way better. Like... way, way, way better. Better.

*...AND NOISE FREE!*

So some wire cleanup here and there and then I think I might be able to put my seat back in, tend to some buzzes in my doors as mentioned ages ago, finish my a-pillars, and then be ready in time for the next spring SQ meet - barely. Got real cold tonight and I don't do door panel removal in the cold... if this is a trend, we will be delayed in that regard but....

NO NOISE!


----------



## casey

Awesome. I am glad you got it taken care of. Those look good in there


----------



## Babs

Nicely done! If I'm gonna trip and fall that's the kind of concussion I want to sustain.


----------



## sirbOOm

Yes... sometimes you just black out. 

Does anyone know if I can flip the Alpine logo on PDXs?

EDIT: Nevermind, I found a thread on this and it's more work than it should be. Alpine goofed with that design. Ohwell.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

rofl


----------



## BlackHHR

LMAO, i did the same thing a few weeks ago, walked out with the L8SE, W957HD,Rux800 and the H800 processor. Mind just went blank and i cannot remember how it got into my HHR. 
Rock on


----------



## sirbOOm

BlackHHR said:


> LMAO, i did the same thing a few weeks ago, walked out with the L8SE, W957HD,Rux800 and the H800 processor. Mind just went blank and i cannot remember how it got into my HHR.
> Rock on


From Sound Sensations?! We sell Hybrid?


----------



## BlackHHR

No, here at Hybrid, I was just saying i had the same sort of out of mind experience with the blur of events.


----------



## BlackHHR

BTW, I will be in your neighborhood next week to pick up product from a vendor.If i have a minute, i will swing by your store.


----------



## sirbOOm

I won't be there unless you come through Saturday.


----------



## sirbOOm

Unfortunately, Alpine didn't put a switch on the F4 (at least) so I can just run one set of RCA cables in and just internally split the input signal so I can bridge the midbasses - why they didn't do this I don't know... splitters are stupid? - so I have to go get me some Stinger SI42YM splitters today before buttoning up the back seat and what not. Off I go... I'll take external splitters over noise any day!


----------



## jpf150

Glad it's coming together for you Nick! I can't wait to hear it the next time you make it up to NC. What's the plan for the levi? Send it back and hope it gets fixed then sell?


----------



## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> Unfortunately, Alpine didn't put a switch on the F4 (at least) so I can just run one set of RCA cables in and just internally split the input signal so I can bridge the midbasses - why they didn't do this I don't know... splitters are stupid? - so I have to go get me some Stinger SI42YM splitters today before buttoning up the back seat and what not. Off I go... I'll take external splitters over noise any day!


Not on the F6 either. 


I absolutely love my Alpine's (F6, F4, M12 and soon to be another M12). Just leagues ahead of what I had in and the output is SO clean.


----------



## quality_sound

Nice chance! If I had the room, I'd do two F6s and an M12. I'm trying to decide between a Leviathan or an Audison AV5.1K.


----------



## Beckerson1

quality_sound said:


> Nice chance! If I had the room, I'd do two F6s and an M12. I'm trying to decide between a Leviathan or an Audison AV5.1K.


Go vertical!!!!!


----------



## brett

i'm glad you didn't give up and found a solution. let us know how things pan out after some tuning sessions


----------



## sirbOOm

Well I buttoned everything up today - tidied up all the wiring, put back all of the OEM sound blocking material on the back wall (where it still existed), put the rear seats back in, vacuumed the carpet, found my missing $20 under the carpet... etc.

I loaded the two Stereo Integrity BM mkIV subwoofers into my (broken) box which allots .55 cubic footaroonies per subwoofer in individual chambers. It's a downfire box.

Let me tell you about Audio Enhancers, who made this box. The first one I got had two broken corners. The replacement one had one broken corner (same corner). Why they cannot use some foam packaging or even round and reinforce corners baffles me. It pisses me off I can't even get a box home before it's broken. On top of that, while it is bedlinered, they did not caulk or seal any seam between two pieces of wood. Now, the bedlined should take care of that but I shouldn't have to depend on it. So of course I had to spend 30 min. caulking every seam... just such a disappointment. I really expected better from "Made in the USA" (the ZEDs and this box). Ohwell... I'd really like to do some sort of fancy box like the examples in other Silverado's in the build logs but I really don't have the scrilla for that right now. Plus I'd rather have the subs upfiring (always sounds better) but it is what it is for now.

Issues after buttoning everything up:
- Doors need some more deadening / maybe some foam
- Two SI subs are rattling something in the back... figure out what that is
- Heard unexpected distortion in my midranges in one song - might be the song
- Probably should deaden where the midranges mount

Demo'd the system (without subs) for Marc who owns Sound Sensations. First thing he said was - wow, and there's no subs in here? Yep... the Stage 4 woofers pound. He actually said that he might start stocking Pioneer Stage 4 speakers again now that "he has a new demo vehicle" to show people. I'll take that as he was impressed. He also complimented the tightness of the install - back wall was exposed. That'll be like the one and only compliment for that area because the seats are back in... can't see it unless you contort under the seat and go looking for the wiring.

It sounds pretty dang good - a bit bright - right off the bat (well, at the settings the RF 360.3 did to create a flat signal). I set the crossovers as follows... seem okay:

Tweets: 6000+ with a 24 Butter
Midranges: 450 to 6000 with a 24 Butter
Midbasses: 63 to 450 with a 24 Butter
Subs: 20 to 63 with a 24 Butter

Probably going to bring the midbasses up to 80 for the crossover... no point in being down the 63 with a subwoofer in play - that was the pre subwoofer setting. They played just fine although some rattles started popping up in the doors here and there.

I was able to do the ol measure distance of each speaker approach to get a halfway decent center. Then I adjusted starting with the midrange as needed to lock that up. Same with tweeter and midbass. I did not delay the subwoofer at this point. Farthest speaker form me is actually the passenger midbass, not the subs.

As for setting up the amps, I would like to put an o-scope on them but for the time being I left all of the gains down on the full ranges and the gain on the sub amp up 1/4. Doing so did not yield any sort of distortion audibly or using the DD-1 (which I no longer trust - half the time it says I have distortion when I don't... POS). But I'd like to have the gains all the way up on the 360.3 and then set the max gain on the amplifiers so I know I am getting max output, then deal with gain setting in the 360.3 only from then on. At this point, the system gets really freakin' loud so I might not even bother.

I also reconnected my factory rear speakers to the head unit. I can just fade all the way forward when I don't need them but over the holidays I tend to have some passengers in the car and when I last did I got comments about no speakers in the back so I figured I'd just placate those pleebs. When they're on I really only notice a slight pulling back of the stage.

With simple tuning (no rears) my stage is just over halfway up the windshield at eye level for me and sort of beyond outside it a little bit (which is exciting). When you have the rear speakers playing, the sound pulls back so it's right at the windshield and a little lower, which is still tolerable for me.

Okay... much more to say. Dog is whining like a baby wanting me to play rope.

Oh, I actually emailed Scott Buwalda and asked what it'd take for him to tune it. Hopefully the 360.3 isn't beneath him... I know it's limited compared to Helix which his shop is a dealer for.


----------



## sirbOOm

Pics of the (more or less) final wiring tidy job:


























The pix make it look like the wires are touching the floor but they are about 1" give or take from it at their lowest. Held up by the usual wire holder clamps and so forth. Everything is very solid and hard to move. Looks good to me... lotta wires to deal with.

The Streetwires distribution block and the window motor and all that is covered up with the OEM sound blocking material which you can sort of see is being held up. I actually used zip ties to sew the OEM material in one spot that I cut to be able to prop that area up without having to remove the entire thing again and that worked out really nicely. I didn't take a picture but I drilled holes along the edge on both sides and used zip ties like a stitch. I plan to do this when I sell the truck to return the OEM sound blocking material back to coverage of the entire wall.


----------



## sirbOOm

Oh, and remember back when I took out the center seat belt? 

Well, I forgot that that same assembly has the buckle for the driver side rear seat's seatbelt. I realized this when putting the rear seat back in. So what I did is - don't judge - I cut the buck part of the seatbelt off of the rest of the assembly. This is possible - I'll try and get a picture later but it'll still hold just fine. I already have a line on a total replacement assembly for when I sell the truck for $50... they're $95 new. So it's no big deal, really. If I had mounted the Alpine amps about 3" higher, I could have put the center seatbelt in but... I didn't really have 3"... so.

Oh, and here's how much space you have when the seat is back. That's the 360.3 scrunched in there.








[/url]

I can fit a finger in the space betweent he seat and the 360.3. 

Oh, and you can see the "MLV" layer under the seat mounting bracket there that covers the area where you'd normally see the paint of the floor but that material is now covering most of the backside of the truck up to where I put the Stinger stuff many threads back and has helped reduce road noise from the back noticeably.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

Will Scott tune your truck?


----------



## sirbOOm

I don't know. No response yet. I don't know if he or his team does it.


----------



## BlackHHR

If you are referring to the Scott Huck and I know mutually, then send him an email or call Monday morning. PM here is not the best way to get a response. 
If not, sorry for intruding on your thread.


----------



## captainobvious

BlackHHR said:


> LMAO, i did the same thing a few weeks ago, walked out with the L8SE, W957HD,Rux800 and the H800 processor. Mind just went blank and i cannot remember how it got into my HHR.
> Rock on


Nice! I'm definitely digging my Alpine combo (D800, H800 and C800 RUX). That w957 looks like a pretty killer source unit as well. I'm sure your pretty excited with all the nice new additions.


----------



## captainobvious

quality_sound said:


> Nice chance! If I had the room, I'd do two F6s and an M12. I'm trying to decide between a Leviathan or an Audison AV5.1K.


Meh, I'd steer clear of both of them. Leviathan for the already mentioned reasons, and the AV5.1K's could quite possibly the amps with the highest running temperature I've ever found. That doesn't bode well for longevity.


----------



## captainobvious

Nick-

Nice choice. I'm sure the Alpine's will serve you well. Ahh, the sweet sound of silence. Going to an all digital Alpine source/dsp setup and changing over to the Mosconi AS amps made a huge difference in my system. 
Congrats.


----------



## sirbOOm

Well I will be scheduling with Scott Buwalda to tune my truck once I finish up. That'll get scheduled in late January or early February. After that... I should be done and hopefully everything done in time for me to have something to show off at the next SQ meet.

Right now I'm busy selling off Harley stuff. I sold my Harley yesterday and have a HUGE amount of stuff that I no longer need including some pretty valuable stuff so I'm all over eBay right now - the same eBay that takes a cut of the exact shipping charges I charge using my own discounted shipping account... pisses me off so much!!!!

I will finish the body work on my driver a-pillar this weekend probably at the shop in-between head unit installation jobs (haha) and then I'll find someone to wrap them. I'm considering re-doing them a teeny bit though but... one thing at a time.

Going to pull my door panels today or tomorrow if it stays above 50 at some point and add some deadening and so forth so I can kill off some buzzes I'm getting.


----------



## sirbOOm

captainobvious said:


> Meh, I'd steer clear of both of them. Leviathan for the already mentioned reasons, and the AV5.1K's could quite possibly the amps with the highest running temperature I've ever found. That doesn't bode well for longevity.


Yes, they get real hot. We've installed quite a few (for a high end expensive as sin amp) and none have come back due to general failure attributable to heat. In fact... I don't know of one that has come back at all (it's such a high end rare to install amp relatively that it'd be something that's talked about). We just put one in a huge tow truck... guy had TVs and all kinds of stuff in that thing. One of those we buy your junk cars trucks. Haha.


----------



## quality_sound

captainobvious said:


> Meh, I'd steer clear of both of them. Leviathan for the already mentioned reasons, and the AV5.1K's could quite possibly the amps with the highest running temperature I've ever found. That doesn't bode well for longevity.



Sadly, there are few options for people that have 8 Ohm horns, 2 Ohm midbasses, and don't have a ton of room. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BlackHHR

Nick all joking aside, are the alpine amps living up to your expectations? Reason is I have been eyeing them for a month or so now and really thinking about pulling the trigger on them. Looking at the (2) PDX-F6 ( one left and one for right) and (1) PDX-M12 for the sub. 
I have second hand info on them and would like to get some first hand user info of that particular line from a trusted source.


----------



## sirbOOm

Well you'll see my amps performing in late January at Hybrid... 

My shop is full of PDX fan boys and they convinced me to go with these over JL HDs which was my only other option and, even with my discount, almost twice the price (granted, I have F4s and the HDs are more comparable to the F6s, but still). I think 100 watts potential to a tweeter and 100 watts potential to a midrange is just fine. Then bridged 200 watts to my midbasses and I am golden.

Do I like them... very much so. They are noticeably better at powering my speakers than the JBL A/B amps and Soundstream Class D amps that I was fooling with while my damn ZEDs were being repaired. I honestly have no complaints about them. They are noticeably not "Class D-sounding" like the Soundstreams were and sound better than the (albeit cheap and less powerful, but still A/B) JBL amps I was using.

I have no noise except for a slight floor hiss which we are getting pretty much always with these 2014+ radios no matter how stupendous of a ground we come up with. And that floor hiss less than any amp I've had in my truck including the ZED (when it briefly may or may not have worked... at this point the memory is gone). I also think they make my system sound better than the ZED did but that could have been its issues getting in the way of sonic accuracy, I don't know.

I recommend them.

What I don't like is the cheapiness of the trim ring on the top but not a big deal. I also don't like that I can't flip the top panel and logo - they seemingly put the pots and adjustments on the wrong side of the amp - should have switched the power and gain pots to opposite sides so people can wall mount these without them being upsiddown. We get annoyed by that at the shop where we put a lot of V9's in custom amp racks.

I haven't really heard many JL HD systems but I did spend far too much time on our properly tuned demo board at the shop and if I heard any difference between the F6 and the HD 4 channel (we didn't have an F4 running) it was that the HD was a bit more tinny at the very top end which some ears may consider as clinical or somehow "more accurate" while the PDX was warmer. Was almost a digital (HD) vs. tube (PDX) sort of difference but so minute that you really, really had to go looking for it and at that point... I may have just created it in my head to get to making a decision.

The JL HDs are a teensy bit cooler running, I'd say. 

The PDX's look better, IMO, and I don't like that JL HD amps if touched even ever so softly by the wrong gust of air end up with markings on them sometimes while the PDX, even if it did have markings on them, wouldn't show much cuz of the brushed black color. I also HATE blue lights on amps which the PDX has but I am not making a show piece here and they're behind the seat so I don't think about it.

I think you will be happy.

And feel free to buy them at Sound Sensations instead of through Hybrid for full price.  Hahah.

Oh, and the PDXs, IMO, look better in flush mounted situations and line up right next to each other easily and look better than HDs when they are, IMO.

Also, at my shop, we have had more problems with JL HDs than PDXs (which probably equates to like... one problem more and we don't have problems much at all with the stuff we sell which is why we sell it... owner is very conscious of stuff making it at least past the damn warranty period which is apparently why they stopped selling Morel... though that was a bit of hearsay)... for what it's worth. JL HDs don't seem to have much love by folks there... which surprised me.


----------



## BlackHHR

Well thanks for the in depth review of the amps and the nuances of them. Currently I am running older Phoenix Gold amps. The only down fall for me with them is I am out of room. We have one amp and the H800 hidden in the spare tire well. They will need to get out of there before the temperatures begin to rise in the spring. 
To do so, it will be a down size in the foot print of amps. The alpines seem like they are going to fit the space and match the processor that has worked extremely well for us. 
Blue lights, LOL ..... The PGold`s light up my car like a space ship .... blue ..


----------



## Beckerson1

sirbOOm said:


> Well you'll see my amps performing in late January at Hybrid...
> 
> My shop is full of PDX fan boys and they convinced me to go with these over JL HDs which was my only other option and, even with my discount, almost twice the price (granted, I have F4s and the HDs are more comparable to the F6s, but still). I think 100 watts potential to a tweeter and 100 watts potential to a midrange is just fine. Then bridged 200 watts to my midbasses and I am golden.
> 
> Do I like them... very much so. They are noticeably better at powering my speakers than the JBL A/B amps and Soundstream Class D amps that I was fooling with while my damn ZEDs were being repaired. I honestly have no complaints about them. They are noticeably not "Class D-sounding" like the Soundstreams were and sound better than the (albeit cheap and less powerful, but still A/B) JBL amps I was using.
> 
> I have no noise except for a slight floor hiss which we are getting pretty much always with these 2014+ radios no matter how stupendous of a ground we come up with. And that floor hiss less than any amp I've had in my truck including the ZED (when it briefly may or may not have worked... at this point the memory is gone). I also think they make my system sound better than the ZED did but that could have been its issues getting in the way of sonic accuracy, I don't know.
> 
> I recommend them.
> 
> What I don't like is the cheapiness of the trim ring on the top but not a big deal. I also don't like that I can't flip the top panel and logo - they seemingly put the pots and adjustments on the wrong side of the amp - should have switched the power and gain pots to opposite sides so people can wall mount these without them being upsiddown. We get annoyed by that at the shop where we put a lot of V9's in custom amp racks.
> 
> I haven't really heard many JL HD systems but I did spend far too much time on our properly tuned demo board at the shop and if I heard any difference between the F6 and the HD 4 channel (we didn't have an F4 running) it was that the HD was a bit more tinny at the very top end which some ears may consider as clinical or somehow "more accurate" while the PDX was warmer. Was almost a digital (HD) vs. tube (PDX) sort of difference but so minute that you really, really had to go looking for it and at that point... I may have just created it in my head to get to making a decision.
> 
> The JL HDs are a teensy bit cooler running, I'd say.
> 
> The PDX's look better, IMO, and I don't like that JL HD amps if touched even ever so softly by the wrong gust of air end up with markings on them sometimes while the PDX, even if it did have markings on them, wouldn't show much cuz of the brushed black color. I also HATE blue lights on amps which the PDX has but I am not making a show piece here and they're behind the seat so I don't think about it.
> 
> I think you will be happy.
> 
> And feel free to buy them at Sound Sensations instead of through Hybrid for full price.  Hahah.
> 
> Oh, and the PDXs, IMO, look better in flush mounted situations and line up right next to each other easily and look better than HDs when they are, IMO.
> 
> Also, at my shop, we have had more problems with JL HDs than PDXs (which probably equates to like... one problem more and we don't have problems much at all with the stuff we sell which is why we sell it... owner is very conscious of stuff making it at least past the damn warranty period which is apparently why they stopped selling Morel... though that was a bit of hearsay)... for what it's worth. JL HDs don't seem to have much love by folks there... which surprised me.


Fully agree on the little cosmetic issues with the PDX's amps. The trim rings would have looked sweet if they were a similar color yet metal in nature but its only a small part. Yet they do lead to many custom options as well. I'm prepping mine for a custom UV look, yet stock gloss black color when UV isn't present. It's possible but I will have to work hard on it to make it look the way I want.


----------



## lawmaster891

I joined this forum just to follow this build. I just purchased a 2015 sierra duramax that I want to upgrade the sound system in. Wow after reading this it seems like a headache. I thought about buying the kicker plug and play kit for ease but really dont like the price for what you get and im afraid I wont be satisfied. I have a rockford fosgate T600-4 and a set of rf component speakers left over from my last truck I removed before selling. My last truck I had 2 channels bridged for the probox sub and one channel to each front component setup. I was thinking of running a jl clean sweep, a set of components for the rear and a set for the front, my 4 channel amp to power them, a monoblock amp, and a probox 10 (I was very satisfied with the probox in my old truck). This would be my first install with a factory headunit. Yours is the first build i have seen on these trucks without cutting and splicing into the factory wiring which I like. The main part that confuses me is how you made that T adapter. Why did you do the T behind the dash instead of behind the door pillar where it is closer to the amp mounting?


----------



## lawmaster891

Alright I read this thread again and I am feeling a little better about it and have a better understanding. Did you ever figure out how to keep the door chimes from being real loud?


----------



## sirbOOm

Don't jack your gain up too much and it'll be the same as factory which is already too loud but whatever.


----------



## lawmaster891

I talked to kicker and they want $90 for the t harness that comes in the soundgate upgrade. Is that really worth it or does the way you ran the wiring suffice the same?


----------



## sirbOOm

You do not need the T-harness if you're running new speaker wires.


----------



## shutmdown

out of curiosity, what does Scott charge to tune a vehicle. If you don't want to post that information you can PM me.


----------



## sirbOOm

Call hybrid audio please.


----------



## sirbOOm

Well for what it's worth I drove 14 hours straight (one-f'ing-way) over the holiday with the amps on and no overheating issues even with hours of loud music. I did notice - could be my brain - that the sound was a teensy bit different when the alternator wasn't putting out anything above 13.8v. These amps don't seem to pull much power because my alternator doesn't sit at 14+v or 13.8v more often than it did without a stereo, so that's nice.

This week I am going to build a dock on my lake. I took out the ****ty floating on barrels dock some ******* built in the past and am going to reuse some of that wood (the stuff still good) for "extra support and structure" and treated for the rest. I am thinking around $1200 total for the build - wood is expensive.

After that is done, I will finish up the finish work on my passenger pillar and seek to have them covered finally. And while that's underway I'll take off my door panels and do a little more deadening and so forth to lock it all down.

Then new years, for which I will be sleeping with now TWO dogs who absolutely must sleep right up against me with their 400 lbs heads on my legs... cute but not helpful for someone like me that likes to move around before actually falling asleep. I move, they both go: grrarrrarrararrrrr and get annoyed and then face plant their heads right on my legs again when I stop moving. I suppose I'll get used to that... haha.


----------



## captainobvious

sirbOOm said:


> Well for what it's worth I drove 14 hours straight (one-f'ing-way) over the holiday with the amps on and no overheating issues even with hours of loud music. I did notice - could be my brain - that the sound was a teensy bit different when the alternator wasn't putting out anything above 13.8v. These amps don't seem to pull much power because my alternator doesn't sit at 14+v or 13.8v more often than it did without a stereo, so that's nice.
> 
> This week I am going to build a dock on my lake. I took out the ****ty floating on barrels dock some ******* built in the past and am going to reuse some of that wood (the stuff still good) for "extra support and structure" and treated for the rest. I am thinking around $1200 total for the build - wood is expensive.
> 
> After that is done, I will finish up the finish work on my passenger pillar and seek to have them covered finally. And while that's underway I'll take off my door panels and do a little more deadening and so forth to lock it all down.
> 
> Then new years, for which I will be sleeping with now TWO dogs who absolutely must sleep right up against me with their 400 lbs heads on my legs... cute but not helpful for someone like me that likes to move around before actually falling asleep. I move, they both go: grrarrrarrararrrrr and get annoyed and then face plant their heads right on my legs again when I stop moving. I suppose I'll get used to that... haha.



That's why I make mine sleep on the floor now (just one, but still). She sleeps on the floor everywhere else in the house so it's not a matter of comfort


----------



## Coppertone

Dang Steve, how many dogs do you guys have ? Lol


----------



## captainobvious

Just one. A golden retriever female.


----------



## sirbOOm

My dad's in town this week and the first thing he said when he got in my car is that the tweeters in my A-pillars don't look symmetrical, not pointing the same. So I gave it a look myself and... I think he's right. The driver's side doesn't seem to be pointing as I thought it was to the rearview mirror, a little down. Everything sounds fine but I can't have that. Given how bloody expensive it will be to finish these pillars right, I am thinking of scrapping the fiberglass pillar idea and going with pods or something in the corner of the dash that'll be easier to align properly. 

Dock building is going okay. Went to Lowes and dumped a ton of money on like... HALF... the wood I will need. Trying to decide if I should use screws or nails...


----------



## Notloudenuf

sirbOOm said:


> Dock building is going okay. Went to Lowes and dumped a ton of money on like... HALF... the wood I will need. Trying to decide if I should use screws or nails...


Build log for the dock?


----------



## sirbOOm

Checking in. Here's the dock. Build by me, my myself, all alone... with more "F" words dealt out during the course of the build than an entire Chicago Bears season. It's almost finished, I'm just going to build a bench in the "L" part top left using the old wood from the old dock that is still surprisingly perfect and then I plan to do a sort of paint that is kind of tough and it'll be a kinda of faded redish sort of color (have to wait for the treated wood to dry out a bit).

As for car audio... ****. I did a few nothing fancy builds for others to gather some cash for the 'ol stock market that I continue to suck at but beyond that I've been busy and haven't had time to do this or finish my A-pillars. I swear it'll probably take me 2 hours to finish them but... it's like doing dishes, I just don't want to start. I'm supposed to be at Hybrid Audio this Friday to get the car tuned by Scott... gotta get to it!!!

...and yes, the lake has been lowered. We can lower it.


----------



## sirbOOm

I might be selling my truck. Someone offered me $2K less than I paid for it at work. He wants the stereo but I didn't pay full price for anything so I guess it's "losing" $4K and my time, but this truck is killing me in gas so... maybe I will.

Got a dealership to the bones on a car that I should have bought after the lemon Mercedes but that would mean my 3rd car in 1.5 years! 

Someone stop me... god.


----------



## Coppertone

Ok before anyone beats me to it, what will the new vehicle be ?


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## sirbOOm

Lincoln MKZ Hybrid. Can get one almost fully loaded (just no pano sunroof) for $40,300 out the door. Truecar.com says I should pay $42K not including taxes and fees. I just for fun shopped multiple dealers and cornered one on bad service - guy would just completely ignore things I said and they decided to make me happy. I'd go in Tuesday to make the deal if I do it. It's really slow (188 hp total; a ridiculously low 130 tq) but so is the truck - same 0-60 time more or less and I have yet to find a reason to want more power. It would have the THX stereo which I've demo'd and, while it's not amazing, it's worlds better than the **** H/K stereo in the Mercedes and I really have GOT TO STOP spending money on stereo stuff.

I would love the new Mustang GT but... I have yet to find one single opportunity to go as fast as it can and it'd just be another gas hog. 

I don't know... I don't know...


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## bertholomey

My wife just opined......how about a new Honda Civic with a kick ass stereo?


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## sirbOOm

I'm gonna be honest with you here - I have never, ever... EVER liked (for me) Honda Civics. I do like, in that category, the newest Toyota Corolla. Something about digital speedos makes me want to diarrhea all over my carpet. No offense. 

I am going to test drive the Camry hybrid tomorrow. Unfortunately you can't get the sporty looking (not driving) SE model with the JBL stereo which is actually not bad. I'd have to get the XLE model which is soft to drive and doesn't have the schnazzy black grill. It baffles me as to why a grill and stiffer suspension precludes one from having a certain stereo. Baffles me...

I looked at VW TDI products but those damn things are so f'ing ugly. If I was an uber driver Id get me a Passat TDI but I'm not. Frankly I'm surprised those don't end up as limos as they're erally nice, cheap to drive and buy, and HUGE. I digress...

But for what my payment (finance) on my truck is plus monthly gas cost, I could LEASE a base model Tesla for $50 less per month not factoring in gov. tax stuff. Insurance about the same, too. Tesla is right by Sound Sensations in Atlanta so I'm going to walk in there and see how close my math actually is and for fun but there's got to be a catch. Just can't possibly be the case that it'd end up cheaper. Of course it's not OWNING it per say but the fact of the matter is, I have yet to keep a car more than 3 years. I pay loans off in 4. Financially it can't possible make sense... I don't believe it. I wish they had a $50K car with like a 200 mi range and then it would be a no brainer - not that that is cheap either but factoring in gas, less service, etc. Friend of mine did this and found he was saving money.


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## Notloudenuf

Nice work on the dock. I bet that will be enjoyable this summer.
I vote for Lincoln. My wife and I have been looking at the MKC since we have loved our Escape for the last 10 years.


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## sirbOOm

The MKC is really nice. Better stereo panel too - real knobs vs. that touch slide crap in the MKZ but... I use steering controls anyway so whatever.

I literally never went out on the dock I had. Mostly this is just part of the plan of increasing my home value. I'm not much of a fishing kind of guy but I find family out there when I get home all the time, haha. They say I should buy a boat (for them... nope). I have two budget bathroom jobs to do (small bathrooms so won't be too bad and I do it myself), might do fake hardwood on the main floor's living room, dining room and kitchen, and reface the kitchen cabinets and do a different counter top. All myself so it takes time but saves tons of labor. 

Haha.. right now my bathroom counter tops are pink and the other is purple. I got the house for a pretty damn low price being a negotiating a-hole, had a hail storm so insurance covered a new roof and siding and repainting most of the rooms so I had a massive budget free-up. It's not in my ideal neighborhood or city but... I like the quiet and the relative freedom vs. living downtown beholden to strict HOAs and stuff. And my garage is bigger by far than most car audio shops in Atlanta! Almost put a two post lift in it last year when I had my Lincoln Continental...

I am going to go to Hybrid tomorrow and get the tune done. Just to hear it. It's not a budget breaker to have it done and it'll be a fun hangout and I did all this work so I might as well hear what I did as good as it can get. I can tune to make the average Sound Sensations customer happy but not Scott Buwalda-grade tuning... in the least. Although now I can't stand, even with my tune on the truck, listening to cars at the shop with lower-end speakers... it's night and day. These Stage 4's really opened up for me. I'm very happy with them for the price and in general. Some downsides but... hopefully Scott gets them.


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## sirbOOm

At Hybrid right now, Scott is tuning and I'm sitting in the lobby "working" (aka, being online so people think I'm working but really I'm sitting on a leather couch looking at a ridiculous amount of trophies and super fancy pants home audio speakers using Hybrid drivers.

BlackHHR is here, got to demo his car. Straight up like I'm in front of a stage... very nice.


















If you want to see Hybrid's lineup in-person... this is where you want to go.









Also see Black Betty sitting in her cocoon. No pictures though... not overstepping!


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## Huckleberry Sound

Great people out there!!!


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## Babs

sirbOOm said:


> At Hybrid right now, Scott is tuning and I'm sitting in the lobby "working" (aka, being online so people think I'm working but really I'm sitting on a leather couch looking at a ridiculous amount of trophies and super fancy pants home audio speakers using Hybrid drivers.
> 
> BlackHHR is here, got to demo his car. Straight up like I'm in front of a stage... very nice.


No pics of fancy-pants HA home speakers?! I mean c'mon man! 
Yeah I suspect BlackHHR's ride is bangin' good in the SQ dept from what little I've heard on it.


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## BlackHHR

Here you go Babs.


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## BlackHHR

Come back anytime Nick. Thanks for listening to the HHR. 
Love the subs in your truck. Real nice low extension and very quick attack.


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## Huckleberry Sound

BlackHHR said:


> Here you go Babs.


How did your turn go. What were the results?


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## sirbOOm

Well Scott said that the tune I did wasn't bad on the RTA. There was a big narrow dip in the 2K-3K range, which I did purposefully as that arena bothers my ears. Its VERY clear that his ears are much better than mine like... physically. One of my ears is not nearly as good as the other unfortunately. He heard some raspeyness on one of my midranges and struggling in my midbasses that I did not know how to pinpoint or as much notice. As for the midrange, I had been suspecting lately that that one wasn't doing so well and I think I might get it warrantied. Overall, I think Scott's tonal preferences are different than mine, which is to be expected - everyone's are. I never have been a flat tune lover but boy did she turn out competition-style flat on the RTA - looked tight from what I could tell. That was a relief. 

Overall, he said it's a good setup but of course not without issue. He said that I need to separate the backwave from the front wave of my midranges in the dash. If you look at my photos earlier on, you'll see that the OEM location allows for massive backwave reflection back up through the grill so I'm getting some issues there. Some rattles in the door as the midbasses were brought to life but in general my midbasses were having a little trouble apparently. I knew all along those were going to be a pain - they were for me, I've complained about them a lot here... just seem limited in range in my application, a two way with mid and tweeter is hell no in my car with these midbasses, that's for sure. Maybe my baffle design isn't ideal... they don't have much venting on their basket structure and they're in a 2" tube before venting out into the door essentially... that could be an issue. We didn't talk about that much, though. Anyway, he said the tweeters and my a-pillar job were good (just to finish them... haha). He said the Stereo Integrity subs were the star of the show - he fixed every issue I was having with them with, unfortunately, a lot of EQ (downfiring straight into carpet, not much room to breath - just not ideal environment) and they were night and day. The subs took every bit of EQ without a fight.

My center stage didn't come out as narrow as we had hoped (7-9 inches?) - Scott did his best but the issues noted above with the midranges are likely the culprit. He centered with phase tracks and put the driver side mirange out of phase 180 vs. the right, which was surprising. I did time alignment with measurements which came out very different. I'm not going to say which I liked better as I haven't done any critical listening. His is most certainly more correct. I tend to time align slightly left of center and somehow lose vocal clarity, which he left a metric tone of with his tune compared to mine. I'm going to flip that mids phase just for giggles, see what happens - use it as a learning experience (and also check my wiring). His tune sounds much different than my tune. Mine was more Morel-ish I guess (soft, some detail washed, but not fatiguing ever) His was very typical of every car I've ever heard with a competition tune. In that I mean its flat, clinical in the sense that there's a slightly fatiguing (to me) but probably technically correct (within the limits of my speakers) gap in warmth in some voices, a good bit more detail on quality tracks, good bit more of noticing flaws in bad tracks (which sucks but that's the nature of the game), solved issues I had in general that I didn't know the first thing about fixing (like losing vocal clarity after time alignment, etc. I'm planning on turning down the tweeters some and getting rid of a teensy bit of brightness (probably around 2500K) that comes out looking flat on an RTA but I always am bothered by that area (as noted above). If you RTA anything I've tuned, I'd bet my life every time 2-3K is below flatline and maybe notable dips around 5K... just my ears, just what I do.

My ears were very tired by the time I got there because I played music for the 1.5 hour drive there very loud thinking I'd have a reference for the difference so I'm going to give it another listen tomorrow. Feel free to swing by Sound Sensations NEXT weekend (28th) and take a listen - would love to hear what anyone thinks.

If I keep the truck, Scott suggests that I do something to separate the backwave of the midranges as #1 priority and likes my idea of putting the midrange and tweeter in the same dash location with some fab work (which frankly may be out of my paygrade). The midrange is about a 1-2" away from the grill and its sounding like that gap and the backwave is giving me the most problems. Second priority would be to fix some rattles in the door - I never did foam in the door due to a time constraint so I would have to go back in there and I bet that'd solve most of it. Rattles are not noticeable on most songs and especially while driving so it's not life or death.

In the end, I like the effect the tuning had. Amazed actually. I will admit I do not like it 100% but I like it "many more percent" than my tune. It's just a bit bright for me right now - I lost some warmth I had with my tune which I think I know to correct (see above). But on the RTA - man... the bugger came out flat nice and tight. Scott did a competition sort of tune for my driving position which is what I asked for (I did not spend time adjusting things here and there to a daily driver liking - I will do that myself; tune is not seat all the way back which I have no use for). Moving the seat or my head affects time alignment MUCH MORE than my tune though, which is, I have to admit, annoying but expected. I think reducing the tweeter gain on the driver side is going to solve some brightness for me - I had the gain on the tweeters lower than he ended up with... I really get annoyed by tweeters. The only tweeter that has never bothered me is an Infinity EMIT-R - huge as fuuuuuk. 

But man... he really brought out those subs! Wow do they just drill down like beyond expectations. They were a bit one notish with my tune and now... man I'm hearing bass guitar like I've never heard. 

It was fun to hang out there. They were working on a BMW 135 and made some sail pods for a set of speakers that looked really nice. I'm just impressed that the owner of a company took half the day to tune my car for me... I guess I didn't expect Scott to have that kind of time, be so up front about everything, and offer to retune after changes. I also got a Hybrid Audio sticker for my toolbox... naturally.


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## sirbOOm

BlackHHR said:


> Come back anytime Nick. Thanks for listening to the HHR.
> Love the subs in your truck. Real nice low extension and very quick attack.


Thanks. The HHR sounded great. My truck's tune directionally reminded me in many ways of your system. That was a great outcome IMO.


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## bertholomey

Great write up Nick! Thanks for sharing with us. I had (at least I hope I can use past tense here) the same issue with the back wave on my mid range drivers - so that was cool to hear that was identified and can be fixed. Awesome to hear as well that the SI subwoofers performed well. Again, I had a very similar experience with mine before Mic pulled a few freqs down.


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## sirbOOm

Truck is gone. Build log closed.


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## Huckleberry Sound

Whats next!!! 
Small car with great gas milage?


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## sirbOOm

Buying a 2013 Volt with 28K miles loaded from a family member including a Level II charger. She's going to hold out for the Tesla Model X I guess. It has the ridiculous white iPad-like dash piece and accent panels but otherwise a keeper. These were over-engineered so as not to give GM a bad name in the hybrid market and given my commute and charge availability, I will probably get around 80 MPG (not including any road trips). Cannot put much for audio in these - no sufficient charging system. It has the Bose system which is all 80 Hz bass but that's to be expected. Maybe I'll do a low draw 5-channel setup but probably just going to leave it.


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## rton20s

If you get some wind noise from the mirrors on the Volt with the windows cracked/down, there is a fix from GM. It may be a fight with the dealership, but they should cover it. Matt Farrah talked about it on one of his Smoking Tire youtube videos.


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## sirbOOm

I saw that. Might but I never have windows down. I have phototobia and am sometimes overly sensitive to light from the side so I actually have a prescription for darker than legal tints. Only reason I didn't pursue becoming a fighter pilot actually. That and maths... haha.


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## Steve_AUtigers

Great write up! Thanks for all of the info.


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## Dmack

BlackHHR said:


> Come back anytime Nick. Thanks for listening to the HHR.
> Love the subs in your truck. Real nice low extension and very quick attack.


I'm sure this guy will give credit where it is due on that tune he has on his truck!! 

I am still doing some final touches on the the Chevy I have been working on so that it can compete this season. What did you end up doing with the doors? Midbass in this truck is really muddy, and I blame the huge hole in the inner door skin.


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## sirbOOm

I sealed the doors.


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## Babs

sirbOOm said:


> I saw that. Might but I never have windows down. I have phototobia and am sometimes overly sensitive to light from the side so I actually have a prescription for darker than legal tints. Only reason I didn't pursue becoming a fighter pilot actually. That and maths... haha.



Ok I'm going to the eye doctor. I have to do shades even in the morning. I guess when my ancestors lived where there is no summer and wore horns on their hats it may be a hereditary thing. But I'd kill for dark tint. Our tint laws simply blow!!

Nice car. They're very easy on the eyes I think.


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## Dmack

sirbOOm said:


> I sealed the doors.


Did you just use the moisture barrier as a template a cut a piece of 1/4 to replace it, or something like that? If you have pics, I would love to see them.


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## sirbOOm

There are pics earlier in this build log, actually. I put the moisture barrier back over what I did just because, haha.


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## Dmack

I must have missed it. I saw where you were building the baffles, but not where you tackled the large opening. I am really glad you liked Greg's HHR. Scott and I have been working on some new tuning methods--melding the best of both of out techniques--and really think we have a winning system. Greg's truck really turned out nicely! I would love for you to hear my Hybrid Jetta, as well. Maybe you can at of the upcoming shows at Hybrid. However, I have nothing of Greg's midbass!! At least, not right now!


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## Dmack

Also, the 2014 Z71 I am finishing up will be there. I would for you to check that one out, as well.


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## sirbOOm

Would love to.

As for the door holes, low temp bendy plastic double sticked or screwed over the holes where feasible then a layer of Stinger Roadkill over the entire door metal including the plastic is what this guy did. Probably can just used the CLD to seal the hole fine.


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## Dmack

I'll check that out this weekend. The truck has plenty of punch, but attack and decay suck!


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## sirbOOm

Gotta get the speaker as close to the grill as possible - my baffle was 1.5 inches off from the metal I believe. Attack and decay weren't the bestest but that's also a deficiency of the Stage 4 midbass, IMO (also per a review I saw, more or less). Downside of the Silverados for car audio is that they put the mid on the bottom corner of the door which is VERY far from the driver's ear and also from the midrange/tweeter situation on the dash. You really have to overlap in a 2-way to get good vocals, IME. As for a 3-way, crossing the dash midrange at 400 Hz was the sweet spot for me. 

Dodge/RAM gets it right by putting the 6x9s they come with higher up in the door. Those trucks sound great with just some Kenwood Excelons thrown in there...


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## Dmack

I have been crossing the L3SEs at 200, but I am thinking I will have to bump that up a bit. However, I don't want to go much above 300, as that's around where frequencies become much more localized.


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## sirbOOm

Up to you. I was happy with 400 and that also RTA'd the best. I really get uncomfortable (in my limited experience) crossing a midrange of the 3"-ish variety below 300. Just like the sound better below that from the midbass, even if I have localization fights.


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## danno14

sirbOOm said:


> Buying a 2013 Volt with 28K miles loaded from a family member including a Level II charger. She's going to hold out for the Tesla Model X I guess. It has the ridiculous white iPad-like dash piece and accent panels but otherwise a keeper. These were over-engineered so as not to give GM a bad name in the hybrid market and given my commute and charge availability, I will probably get around 80 MPG (not including any road trips). Cannot put much for audio in these - no sufficient charging system. It has the Bose system which is all 80 Hz bass but that's to be expected. Maybe I'll do a low draw 5-channel setup but probably just going to leave it.


Hah! Just thought to check your build log and saw this.... Welcome to the world of Volt. I debated one heavily myself before buying what I did, and wouldn't be surprised if we Get one for my wife next year. I'll let you do the system interface research for me 
Enjoy the fuel savings!


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## sirbOOm

System interface is the same essentially as a Chevy Cruze from a signal perspective. We've done some Volts at the shop, actually very easy considering the battery is in the back and there is a usable (for a conservative 5-channel) open fuse (at least in the one that I saw). Can't remember what amperage it was, though. Or just use your own.

If I do anything to this car, it'll be using my Audison Voce in my inventory up front in two way form (I have the midranges but I'm not in the mood for fabrication and all that amplification), I'll probably use the stock speakers in the rear or replace with some inexpensive bits, and a basic AudioControl LCQ-1 as the Bose system already has time alignment done quite well, actually, and I really don't want to get so serious with my own cars' audio systems going forward. Just use the LCQ to tone town the ultra-bass boost Bose/GM decided upon and deal with some other adjustments, remove the OEM subwoofer, use the cavity it sits in to house an amp rack (or a couple 8" woofers, maybe) and if not the 8" woofers, put one of my SI subs back there in a low profile box. Probably would be with an Alpine PDX-V9 or some other respectable hi-efficiency, small 5-channel and I will use the 2-way system's crossovers, powering the rears with the OEM amp which will have to stay in-line, unfortunately. Alas... I'll wait until it warms up. 

Oh, and the most strategic deadening job I've ever done.


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## danno14

I'm (somewhat) looking forward to picking up my new 'lectric scooter and figuring out what's what.... I haven't been able to find anyone with detail or knowledge in the audio aspect of them. "It has a 10 speaker Blows system!" Is pretty much it. No one that has dived into one for audio either. Ah well


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## jdunk54nl

Thank you for documenting all of this with pictures. It is really going to help me with my install!


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## jonyb

Nice build log sirboom!

Did you get the processor signal from the front/rear wires at the green harness of the OEM amp? Is that the amp output or in?


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## thylantyr

Sirboom;

You did some amazing things here;

1. You lured me to post a response to this thread when I retired from audio
forum posting; my last post here was in 2008.

2. I found this thread by accident and I was curious about the amplifier noise
issues and resolution. Recently, as strange as it may seem, I was interested
in knowing the status of old car audio celebrities and one of them happens to
be the same guy that designed your amplifier with the noise problems. 

Their website shows many discontinued amplifiers and this always raises a red
flag for me. I have a different and twisted view on audio in general and how
manufacturers “USE” consumers, but that’s another story.

My story is simple. 40 years electronics, 30 years audio experience.

It’s fascinating how the internet has created so much brand loyalty when the
evidence may point otherwise. You successfully proved that you had a bad
amplifier which led to more evidence later that the amplifier in question was
not only bad, the design of the amplifier is defective as the creator of the
design could not fix the current design. 

They prefer to sweep the problem under the rug and hope nobody looks.

This is how amplifier designers work. When they enter into new technology,
example, the world of class D audio design, they entered a new realm of study
and unfortunately, the consumers become the guinea pig as they start
development on a project that has not matured and they are eager to sell the product without thorough testing. 

As they learn this new art of design, the consumer has to deal with design
flaws until they master the art in which case, a new model of amplifier is
released. This situation happened when they studied classic amplifier design in
their youth where their initial designs were not good, but over time the design
matured and functioned well. It’s a design cycle when there is new tech.

I have followed the celebrity in question and experienced the old products 
that were not very good, but the designs improved over time and mastered
creating different iterations of the product. This was decades ago. For the
record, I have a stack of his good designs in storage because there was
some good iterations of the design if you know the series.

Sadly, in your case, you purchased an amplifier where the design was not mastered and you did a good job to prove the failure.

I have been in this situation before. You have a flawed product that you love, and now you want to fix the design; you want to open it up, examine it and 
wonder what magic tweak you can add inside to make it better. 

You went out of your element to tweak amplifier internals hoping the spruce
goose can fly again, but failure. Kudos for the amazing effort.


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## sirbOOm

^Award goes to this guy for the most organized post on earth.

One thing nice about ZED is that Stephen, the designer, is available in-person. But, he did not repair my Leviathan (at least such that it worked in my truck). He did repair the Minotaur, which had a clearly bad part. The Leviathan... he cut a capacitor instead of just removing it (vehicles vibrate, wires move) and he insisted nothing was wrong despite me being able to reproduce the noise outside of a car and in multiple cars. He said that they put the amp in a Focal demo car and it worked fine - I really have a hard time believing that Focal (or the owner) would be willing to remove an amplifier and put my defective one in, arguably inducing risk to the rest of that system. If I were the owner of said vehicle, I'd refuse that and I'm a pretty generous guy.

My life is now home remodels. Today I'm going to try and install two separate Moen shower/tub tempurature valves and a diverter attached to one of them to have a shower head, hand shower, and rain shower (with a separate temp control). And, in doing this plumbing, I found my original 45 year old copper pipes are damn near clogged with black **** so I'm going to replumb the house with a PEX manifold system. Luckily literally all of the plumbing in my house is easily accessible so this process will only take a day or two once my parts come in. Maybe I'll post a build log of that, hah.

God knows I miss my truck though. My current car, a Chevy Volt, is quite the work horse but I can't jump over curbs when dicks block the right turn at a stop light anymore and I don't have any V8 rumble. But that's what next year's for... MUSTANG! If I don't keep going massively over budget fixing this money pit of a house. Just noticed my sewage drainage system as it goes out of the house. 1 pipe coming out of the concrete is cut and has paper towel stuffed in it. No telling where that goes. Then there are two lines going out of the house but only one septic tank (that I know of) and some dickweed build a sunroom over the corner of that septic tank so that has to come down (replacing with a deck, thing leaks like crazy anyway).

Let's just say the home inspector and I almost went to court back when I bought the place because he gave the whole thing a clean bill of health and so far I've had to redo a lot of electrical (20' of live 12/2 wire coiled up easily found in the attic connected to nothing but air, for one). The list goes on. But maybe it's just my OCD... all must be done right or I will rip a wall out to make it right, haha. Right now my place is a disaster. Thank goodness I don't have a wife/girlfriend - I'd be single again, quick. Even my dog is starting to divorce me. But... this place is gonna look good in the end. And then I'll sell it and move, no doubt. And make zero money. Bygones...

But back to car audio, at this point I stick with Arc XD amps, Alpine PDX, or JL HD. Everything I install otherwise does not impress me for the dollar. The Arc 1200.6 amp I have is absolutely excellent... a marvel of "just right in every way". Sub output could use a little more oomph, I guess, but it's not a dedicated sub amp, so expected. The Arc amp was apparently designed by another car audio great, so there you go.


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