# How much RMS wattage do you run with one H/O Alternator & several Kinetiks?



## Izay123 (Jun 9, 2009)

I'm in the process of a big build on my Rover. My goal is to sound good from both seats & be able to reproduce MASSIVE dynamics unclipped.

I hope to be in the 150-155+ dB range for SPL competition when it's all said and done. I'm fairly confident that following the rated specs for power would be somewhat satisfying; but that's not what I'm shooting for. I want one-of-a-kind out-of-this-world clean dynamic potential. Looking at the Crown Professional amplifier selection guide as a reference, real live music often has peaks of 20-25+ decibels above average. To reproduce this (let's say 30db peak at most), I'd need ONE THOUSAND TIMES THE POWER of my normal listening level on tap at any moment. That means if I'm cranking it at 50watts total for the system, I'll need 50,000 WATTS on tap to deliver that kick drum hit/bass guitar pluck/Strat Riff. I want to be able to actually do that.

In a perfect world, we could just add amplifiers as we choose and have unlimited power on tap. That isn't the case though.

In my case, I will only play normal music 99%of the time--no decaf/chopped/skrewed music for my demos: I love playing music people know really well. 

With that in mind, I don't need my alternator/powercell bank to keep up with my RMS wattage--just be enough to supply the system during the peaks and maintain the rest of the time. Every once in a while I'll go to an SPL competition and burp for a few seconds, but that'll be few and far between ( I could possibly load up a trailer hitch rack with a few extra batts for the comps only)

For the sake of discussion, here's the farthest-out setup I could think of within reason (BTW the midbasses would be run at 4 ohms & the amp list is as follows in case the pic is too small) :

Six ZAPCO Z-3KD

Two ZAPCO Z-400.2 SP

One ZAPCO Z-150.2SP 

Two FOCAL FDP-900.6

Two SONY XM-GS4

The only class AB amps are for mids/tweets in the front.

Most of the time, the Focal amps will be physically turned off via a toggle on the Remote wire. They are for party mode only.

I'm already running 8 runs of OFC 1/0 gauge (4+/4-) and two Kinetik 3800 power cells along with an older Kinetik 1800. I may swap the older 1800 for a 2400 and add a 1400 if I can fit them in.

A custom Singer alternator will be ordered soon (320A). Because it's a Range Rover, there's no room in the engine bay for a second alt.


I have most of the gear except for the amps--I only have four so far, so I have some deciding to do. I'm also looking for the rest of the JBL W12GTI MKII's--I have four in hand and a lead on another semi-local pair. That leaves me one sub short. Please let me know if you know of one for sale (a couple posts in the classifieds look to be months old).

I'd like to hear what you think!


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## Izay123 (Jun 9, 2009)

Here's a skeleton sketch of how I'd fit the amps in (except for the SONYS that would fit into a fender well cubby)


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## few35t (Dec 10, 2014)

This is just... absurd.

LOVE IT


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## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

I'd ditch the Kinetiks and start thinking about lithium and cap banks. You'll save weight and space. 2 JY Power 80 Ah lithium should hold you just fine.


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## few35t (Dec 10, 2014)

WRONG THREAD


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## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

w35t_fg2 said:


> WRONG THREAD


????


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## few35t (Dec 10, 2014)

nineball76 said:


> ????


I clicked on this thread from my e-mail thinking it was intended for the thread I have open right now. I also have a Kinetik in the trunk and am looking at going to an HO alt but for like a 2400w system. I was like $1800 battery suggestion WTF?!?!? LOL, my mistake.


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## nineball76 (Mar 13, 2010)

Oh haha. I'll be running about that much on one of my upcoming builds and am leaning on using 1 bank of supercaps. I have a 270xp dc alt and 2 94r batteries under the hood. I don't need more reserve but the caps would supply faster demands.


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## Lycancatt (Apr 11, 2010)

one thing to remember.

I wont say all music, but 99.99999 percent of all music from 1950 to today has compression in it so rarely if ever has a 30 db swing in dynamics. so, my thought is, get as much power as you can fit, never need it all, and don't think you need 50k watts for peaks, you honestly don't.

I'm glad to see you change the tailgate subs for all matching drivers, at least that's what I'm guessing you did since you now need 4 more 12gtis.


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

The last Rover I saw that had that much power on tap needed 3 alternators and half of the engine bay rebuilt to accommodate them.


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## Izay123 (Jun 9, 2009)

Lycancatt said:


> one thing to remember.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks, Lycancatt.

Yes the 30DB was uncompressed--I'd like to add an expander if possible, just to play with. Have you ever used one? All I can think that's available are usually used with a compressor on vocals to keep up with the vocalist's poor microphone handling skills...

I like to play extremely loud music every once in a while--& when I do, the better/cleaner the peaks, the happier I am. I hate the sound of high freq distortion.

Yes, the subs are all matching drivers now--useable frequency bandwidth seems to increase with more drivers, as well as adding low end capability. I'll end up using less power with all seven playing and then I can set an eq curve for outdoor listening only & try to fill in the 60-80/100hz gap with midbass from the front doors.


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## Izay123 (Jun 9, 2009)

Onyx1136 said:


> The last Rover I saw that had that much power on tap needed 3 alternators and half of the engine bay rebuilt to accommodate them.



can you please point me in the direction of that build? I'm curious to see what year/model/engine it had & what they gave up to mount them...

I'm not shy about making mods that I know will add to the vehicle's appeal long-term.. 








Here's the initial progress on the Rover's inside front door weldment.


Even with just the angle iron frame and the screws holding it in for now, it feels stronger than any interior door panel I've felt in a car.


( the screws are to hold the angle iron frame in place; they will be replaced by 1/4" rivets after the enclosure is welded together & to the frame)








Once the structural work is complete & Im ready, Ill take it to Tom Miller to do the cosmetic work.

Below is the final cosmetic goal (cosmetic design & drawing by Tom Miller, number 1 installer in the nation 2014, of MusicarNW).


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

Had the build pics on my computer but the hard drive tanked on me s while back. I don't have a link to it that I can remember. It was started by Jeremy Carlson in Boston and finished by Doug Dobson down in Phoenix, Az after Carlson went to prison. It was almost an all Audison Thesis build, except for the JL W7 woofers. Put those names plus Range Rover into google image search and it should find it for you.


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## Izay123 (Jun 9, 2009)

Onyx1136 said:


> Had the build pics on my computer but the hard drive tanked on me s while back. I don't have a link to it that I can remember. It was started by Jeremy Carlson in Boston and finished by Doug Dobson down in Phoenix, Az after Carlson went to prison. It was almost an all Audison Thesis build, except for the JL W7 woofers. Put those names plus Range Rover into google image search and it should find it for you.




I remember seeing a YouTube video of it--looked like good craftsmanship!


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

It was pretty exceptional at the time. The amount of fabrication, rebuilding and relocating that went on under the hood was the highlight of the build. Unfortunately, most people were so caught up in the interior work that they never took the time to appreciate the fantastic craftsmanship in the engine bay.


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## Izay123 (Jun 9, 2009)

nineball76 said:


> I'd ditch the Kinetiks and start thinking about lithium and cap banks. You'll save weight and space. 2 JY Power 80 Ah lithium should hold you just fine.


Can I add Lithium in addition to the two KINETIK 3800s I currently have?

Here's a PDF showing WAAY more details than the compressed layout pic does.


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

Izay123 said:


> Can I add Lithium in addition to the two KINETIK 3800s I currently have?
> 
> Here's a PDF showing WAAY more details than the compressed layout pic does.


Absolutely not. It is never ok to mix lithium batteries with lead acid batteries. That's a recipe for fires and/or explosions. Do not do that in a vehicle that will be driven on the road.


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## Izay123 (Jun 9, 2009)

Onyx1136 said:


> Absolutely not. It is never ok to mix lithium batteries with lead acid batteries. That's a recipe for fires and/or explosions. Do not do that in a vehicle that will be driven on the road.


Bummer. Why is it that you can add Kinetiks to standard lead acid setups with no problems? 

I just bought the 3800 Kinetiks about two months ago--& I hate buying things for the same purpose twice.


I hadn't seriously considered lithium until I saw an 80AH for $1000 recently. It's still steep for power, but space, constant voltage & weight have to be worth something. 

I thought the Lithium were sealed & safe, just like the AGM? How could two different batteries cause a fire/explosion?


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

Izay123 said:


> Bummer. Why is it that you can add Kinetiks to standard lead acid setups with no problems?
> 
> I just bought the 3800 Kinetiks about two months ago--& I hate buying things for the same purpose twice.
> 
> ...


Because Kinetic batteries are just standard lead acid batteries. They just use AGM technology instead of the old flooded cells. 

Lithium batteries don't charge or discharge at the same rate as lead acid batteries. Ever notice how your drill with a lithium battery goes from having plenty of charge to being dead in like 10 seconds? Lithium batteries don't slowly drain down like lead batteries do. And they charge at a different rate as well. Those differences in charging and discharging rate plus the fact that lithium batteries are inherently unstable makes them incompatible with regular lead batteries of any kind.


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## Izay123 (Jun 9, 2009)

Onyx1136 said:


> Because Kinetic batteries are just standard lead acid batteries. They just use AGM technology instead of the old flooded cells.
> 
> 
> 
> Lithium batteries don't charge or discharge at the same rate as lead acid batteries. Ever notice how your drill with a lithium battery goes from having plenty of charge to being dead in like 10 seconds? Lithium batteries don't slowly drain down like lead batteries do. And they charge at a different rate as well. Those differences in charging and discharging rate plus the fact that lithium batteries are inherently unstable makes them incompatible with regular lead batteries of any kind.




Thanks for the info. Looks like I may want to stick with the Kinetiks for now...


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## Izay123 (Jun 9, 2009)

Onyx1136 said:


> Because Kinetic batteries are just standard lead acid batteries. They just use AGM technology instead of the old flooded cells.
> 
> 
> 
> Lithium batteries don't charge or discharge at the same rate as lead acid batteries. Ever notice how your drill with a lithium battery goes from having plenty of charge to being dead in like 10 seconds? Lithium batteries don't slowly drain down like lead batteries do. And they charge at a different rate as well. Those differences in charging and discharging rate plus the fact that lithium batteries are inherently unstable makes them incompatible with regular lead batteries of any kind.




I have since spoken with Lithium LifeP04 Suppliers & users, & THEY DO RECOMMEND USING THEM IN THE SAME CIRCUIT AS AGM BATTERIES. I AM CONTEMPLATING ADDING THE LARGEST LIMITLESS IN PLACE OF MY KINETIK HC1800, while keeping 270AH Agm capacity plus the limitless (80 REAL AH)


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

Izay123 said:


> I have since spoken with Lithium LifeP04 Suppliers & users, & THEY DO RECOMMEND USING THEM IN THE SAME CIRCUIT AS AGM BATTERIES. I AM CONTEMPLATING ADDING THE LARGEST LIMITLESS IN PLACE OF MY KINETIK HC1800, while keeping 270AH Agm capacity plus the limitless (80 REAL AH)


That's good to know. The several I have spoken with about that have told me flat out to never mix the 2. I wonder if they are doing something different with their batteries.


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## Rocketjones (Oct 23, 2008)

Just out of curiosity, what voltage do you plan on running?


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## Izay123 (Jun 9, 2009)

Rocketjones said:


> Just out of curiosity, what voltage do you plan on running?




Standard; sub 15V


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