# This is sickening



## Speakers4Weapons

item 260733217978
http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-4-DUAL-CONE...733217978?pt=Car_Speakers&hash=item3cb4e92cba


2 years ago when searching for "RARE" in car audio u got maybe 75 items. Now, everybody thinks there junk is worth more than its actually worth.
I dont care to hear about what people think things are worth. The point is, its rediculous. Theres good items on ebay but way ouuta control pricing is creatng a serious problem. When i try to tell these sellers this they say "F you" and I see them relist 5 times before they realize Im right.


----------



## nautic70

wow an old 4inch jbl wizzer cone deff worth 50 bucks???? but it's n.o.s so freaking stupid.


----------



## daudioman

That guy always has crazy prices...and trust me he will list something 25 times before he changes anything about his auction! Go figure...


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

And this isnt new. I mean the idea of it. Its ridiculous. Its a new trend. It came from the BIN that ebay created. People like this prick, wait and hope that some dingleberry will BIN! Ive seen an auction relisted for over a year! 
The sick thing is that these sellers really do have the patience like a predator, waiting for a stupid poor innocence little deer to just walk on up and take the bait... 
I see a bleak future for Ebay. And it will makes us all resort to looking for another auction site which will inevitably start the scams of yesteryear all over again.......


----------



## sweetsounds

So basically I'm hearing that i bothers you that 'you want something' and the seller won't drop his price to where you feel comfortable buying. 

So...move on to another seller. If the original seller's price is so crazy, then someone else must have the same item for much less that you're comparing it to. Buy the cheaper one and don't complain. 

If you own something...you can price it any way 'you' see fit because that's what it's worth for you to give up a particular item.

You then go further and make yourself sound like a hero because you're just trying to protect people (deer) that don't know any better and faul victim to this 'predator'. Well...nobody is being forced to buy anything. If you buy something that's over priced then you are the victim of your own lack of self control and reluctance to do your homework.

There's nothing 'sickening' about the practice you've mentioned. It's the seller's right just like it's the buyer's right to 'pass' on the item.


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

sweetsounds said:


> So basically I'm hearing that i bothers you that 'you want something' and the seller won't drop his price to where you feel comfortable buying.
> 
> So...move on to another seller. If the original seller's price is so crazy, then someone else must have the same item for much less that you're comparing it to. Buy the cheaper one and don't complain.
> 
> If you own something...you can price it any way 'you' see fit because that's what it's worth for you to give up a particular item.
> 
> You then go further and make yourself sound like a hero because you're just trying to protect people (deer) that don't know any better and faul victim to this 'predator'. Well...nobody is being forced to buy anything. If you buy something that's over priced then you are the victim of your own lack of self control and reluctance to do your homework.
> 
> There's nothing 'sickening' about the practice you've mentioned. It's the seller's right just like it's the buyer's right to 'pass' on the item.


No, he's simply bitching in an open forum about something that has absolutely NO bearing on life what-so-ever.. 

Who in their right mind would consider purchasing from that guy in the first place, all things considered, so WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE.... 

Move on with your life, god knows, it's not long enough to get bent over this kind of ****... 


CHEERS..!!


----------



## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX

Oh, and this ISN'T an open forum for you to ***** about ****... This is the Ebay Auction Links section... 

If you don't have an actual link, WTH did you post??










Go back to CA.com


----------



## starboy869

i think he's complaining about this item more from the same seller.

EMMETT KELLY JR WHISTLE WHILE YOU WORK SAN FRANmusicBOX on eBay.ca (item 260726111591 end time 21-Feb-11 11:30:46 EST)


----------



## ryan s

Welcome to the time when people see "old" and equate it with "worth a lot."

Think it's bad in car audio? Search vintage camera gear once. "RARE!" is used to describe some of the most heavily-produced cameras.

And then there's always Arsenal Photo...


----------



## starboy869

also if you think camera is bad. 

search nintendo and highest priced items first.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

people sell mcdonalds happy meal toys for ridiculous prices. It's simply whatever the market will bear, and unfortunately for some of us, there are idiots willing to pay out the wazoo.

It's all relative though: if somebody has $20M in the bank, then $500 for a piece of nostalgia is nothing.


----------



## jbreddawg

Speakers4Weapons said:


> item 260733217978
> 2 years ago when searching for "RARE" in car audio u got maybe 75 items. Now, everybody thinks there junk is worth more than its actually worth.
> I dont care to hear about what people think things are worth. The point is, its rediculous. Theres good items on ebay but way ouuta control pricing is creatng a serious problem. When i try to tell these sellers this they say "F you" and I see them relist 5 times before they realize Im right.


I'm kinda digging the 30 bucks shipping too :laugh:


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

Look, I figured id get at least one or 2 people telling me to just go elsewhere and take this as some kind of Hero tactic. well you are WRONG! 
If you cant see the point im making you are part of the problem. Maybe you are guilty of jacking up a price you know dam well is ridiculous hoping some idiot will pay while you laugh all the way to the bank thinking "boy i sure F##ed that dude" Is that something I want to see change? Yea! I do care about other people as well as myself and the future of the market on ebay. Why? Science shows that once everybody jumps on the bandwagon and starts jacking up prices we will have no choice but to pay stupid prices. We already do this for gas, electricity, Apt rent teh list goes on an don. But some of you think its ok cause thats the way the market works. PhSSht. Even if the person is a little stupid dont make it ok to jack up a price and make a turd look like a bar of gold. Its your responsibility as a respectful and caring individual to not only help others but also help yourself. You do want to be respectful and care about your neighbors dont you? Without each other we are a pile of dead ants. If you F##k over Tom then I guarantee you he will eventually have to F33k over Peter to get back what he thought was a decent buy till he realized he got jipped by you who thinks it was cool. And when he see you again I promise it wont be nice. This is the American way as of present and its ruining the country. And, look. Im nto interested in hearing the morals of making your own price or going elsewhere blah blah.. To sum it up if everybody of this forum decided to charge and stupid shipping price and high AZZ BIN price on an item that isnt even worth half the money, where you think it would lead this forum? Nowhere. But some of you dont care right? Cause there are other forums right? Well, Id rather try to educate, stimulate and not procrastinate on fixing the problem by Telling the sellers what I think. Im sure youre the same people that say, " Let someone else call the senator about the high taxes" And yes it isnt just car audio. people are getting really greedy cause its a perpetual machine of greed. If you overprice then someone else will have to do it. And that is NOT cool. We all wonder how we got in this serious problem. Also I want to point out the MAIN reason why I didnt post the entire link, rather just the item number is cause I wasnt allowed. Im required to pay! Or i can sit here for an hour and leave 30 or so comments which would waste my time from doin more productive things. it also just wasted others people time by having to do a search for the item number all cause someone thinks there price for joining, to having the ability to place a link on here is acceptable.. Pssht , whatever. You want my money, fine, gimme better incentive to pay. Similar to the auction I pointed out, its kinda ridiculous. Yea i can go elsewhere but like I said, I rather point out the problems then runaway from them.... Good day


----------



## trumpet

This "problem" you see wouldn't bother you if you realized what one person sees as a ridiculously high price is completely reasonable to someone else. Also, the "make an offer" option is active on that item. I list items on eBay every week and the way I see it, I'd be a fool for not setting a Buy It Now price that is on the high side. If you don't ask for it there's no chance of getting someone to pay that much.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

trumpet said:


> This "problem" you see wouldn't bother you if you realized *what one person sees as a ridiculously high price is completely reasonable to someone else.* Also, the "make an offer" option is active on that item. I list items on eBay every week and the way I see it, I'd be a fool for not setting a Buy It Now price that is on the high side. If you don't ask for it there's no chance of getting someone to pay that much.


this is so true. There is no inherent value in these products - their value is assigned based upon the demand that the seller perceives. If someone purchases the item at the price that is set, then somebody obviously thinks it's worth it.


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

All i ever hear is this same crap about "the price is relative" No it isnt! Who is is relative to? Cause like I said before, I see people relisting over and over and over many times. Also, how many people make $20 million like the one response stated earlier? very few. So when you go to the gas pump, do you say, boy this gas sure is expensive? Or do you say, Im sure this gas sure is expensive to someone, just not me.
Dont be a retard. Admit that allot of these auctions are just out of control. BIN WITH a offer is the best way other than a straight auction where you start and the buyer decides the end price. But to have a auction with no BIN that has high shipping and high main price on an item we can all see is nowhere near the value, well, you can get the point. 
This crap about he value depends on ones persons needs of the item is just lame. Cause like I said. We can ALLL be looking at the same item but just one person will beable to afford it cause he makes more money. Is that your value for the item? Psssht. Look, Times are getting rough, So people are using drastic, desperate measure to get money. One way they do it is to do what we see on ebay. They hope to get some dumb ass to BIN. And there will be some that will BIN on high item prices but for the majority of us that isnt value. Thats price gouging.


----------



## DAT

Wow this is crazy, you can't complain about Ebay auctions on here... 

But I feel quite a few guys on here are looking for everything low as can be... Yes everybody loves a deal even me  I usually list on here first and then move to Feebay.

So i listed a set Supremo 6's on here for $650 shipped, I got tons of lowball offers and then a guy asking for $575 shipped ( which is not bad ) but I knew these speakers were big sellers on EBay so I listed them there 2 days after listed here and had them on for $750 BIN or Best Offer + SHIPPING.... 2 hours later they sold for $750 + shipping.


So sometimes it's worth it.


----------



## ollschool

It can be so simple. If a price is high, just move on. There is allways a better deal for the same product, it seams to allways happen with patience. I do not sell very often, but i will not give my things away either, i think most will agree. I have known some ebay sellers in the past, and i still see them selling!! But they abuse their prices very badlly and are not at all into car audio. As they have different buyer names. For instance, no names, but i see a older esoteric diamond amp, i'll bet that was bought for around 300 to 500, then was put up for 999.99. Then no takers, then has been put up 3 more times. These people abuse it. I have never liked that. And never will. I stay clear away from those people. And i think most do. I will agree, some items are getting harder to find, not all beat to hell. I do agree RARE is overated. If i sell, i sell to upgrade or i just need money for house payment do to less work in the winter. I try to make a fair price, but i don't want to loose my ass either. Packaging is not cheep, for a good job and insurance. I will not do the if it fits, it ships, as i have gotten from some people as some do not claim responsibility for awfull packaging jobs. Just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## TrickyRicky

Nostalgia is like a drug. I know I still remenisce playing the Nintendo and the Sega Genesis. Anyone else got hooked on the NHL94 on the Genesis? And the funny part about it,,, I HATE HOCKEY!!! But loved playing the game.


----------



## Oliver

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> Oh, and this ISN'T an open forum for you to ***** about ****... This is the Ebay Auction Links section...
> 
> If you don't have an actual link, WTH did you post??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Go back to CA.com




*Tell him !!*


----------



## ryan s

Speakers4Weapons said:


> Look, I figured id get at least one or 2 people telling me to just go elsewhere and take this as some kind of Hero tactic. well you are WRONG!
> If you cant see the point im making you are part of the problem. Maybe you are guilty of jacking up a price you know dam well is ridiculous hoping some idiot will pay while you laugh all the way to the bank thinking "boy i sure F##ed that dude" Is that something I want to see change? Yea! I do care about other people as well as myself and the future of the market on ebay. Why? Science shows that once everybody jumps on the bandwagon and starts jacking up prices we will have no choice but to pay stupid prices. We already do this for gas, electricity, Apt rent teh list goes on an don. But some of you think its ok cause thats the way the market works. PhSSht. Even if the person is a little stupid dont make it ok to jack up a price and make a turd look like a bar of gold. Its your responsibility as a respectful and caring individual to not only help others but also help yourself. You do want to be respectful and care about your neighbors dont you? Without each other we are a pile of dead ants. If you F##k over Tom then I guarantee you he will eventually have to F33k over Peter to get back what he thought was a decent buy till he realized he got jipped by you who thinks it was cool. And when he see you again I promise it wont be nice. This is the American way as of present and its ruining the country. And, look. Im nto interested in hearing the morals of making your own price or going elsewhere blah blah.. To sum it up if everybody of this forum decided to charge and stupid shipping price and high AZZ BIN price on an item that isnt even worth half the money, where you think it would lead this forum? Nowhere. But some of you dont care right? Cause there are other forums right? Well, Id rather try to educate, stimulate and not procrastinate on fixing the problem by Telling the sellers what I think. Im sure youre the same people that say, " Let someone else call the senator about the high taxes" And yes it isnt just car audio. people are getting really greedy cause its a perpetual machine of greed. If you overprice then someone else will have to do it. And that is NOT cool. We all wonder how we got in this serious problem. Also I want to point out the MAIN reason why I didnt post the entire link, rather just the item number is cause I wasnt allowed. Im required to pay! Or i can sit here for an hour and leave 30 or so comments which would waste my time from doin more productive things. it also just wasted others people time by having to do a search for the item number all cause someone thinks there price for joining, to having the ability to place a link on here is acceptable.. Pssht , whatever. You want my money, fine, gimme better incentive to pay. Similar to the auction I pointed out, its kinda ridiculous. Yea i can go elsewhere but like I said, I rather point out the problems then runaway from them.... Good day





Speakers4Weapons said:


> All i ever hear is this same crap about "the price is relative" No it isnt! Who is is relative to? Cause like I said before, I see people relisting over and over and over many times. Also, how many people make $20 million like the one response stated earlier? very few. So when you go to the gas pump, do you say, boy this gas sure is expensive? Or do you say, Im sure this gas sure is expensive to someone, just not me.
> Dont be a retard. Admit that allot of these auctions are just out of control. BIN WITH a offer is the best way other than a straight auction where you start and the buyer decides the end price. But to have a auction with no BIN that has high shipping and high main price on an item we can all see is nowhere near the value, well, you can get the point.
> This crap about he value depends on ones persons needs of the item is just lame. Cause like I said. We can ALLL be looking at the same item but just one person will beable to afford it cause he makes more money. Is that your value for the item? Psssht. Look, Times are getting rough, So people are using drastic, desperate measure to get money. One way they do it is to do what we see on ebay. They hope to get some dumb ass to BIN. And there will be some that will BIN on high item prices but for the majority of us that isnt value. Thats price gouging.












The Enter key...utilize it.

If one person has a high BIN price, how does that have any effect on the market? Now, if everyone has a high BIN price...oh wait...then it's the "market value"  You consider it too high, keep looking around...or don't buy that item. I want a BMW M3, but I won't pay a dime over $3k :laugh:

Consider this: I looked far and wide to find a particular cell phone near to $100 as I could get. Closest I could find was $150. What were my choices? Go without a phone, or pay.

In the end, no one is forcing you to buy it. There's $1500 iPhones on ebay I bet. Everything sells, eventually...but maybe not for the asking price. If a buyer comes along then there's a market...if he agrees to your price, then that's a fair value. I thought that was the "beauty" of capitalism? I have something...you want it...you have to pay what I want for it in order to receive it


----------



## daudioman

ryan s said:


> The Enter key...utilize it.
> 
> If one person has a high BIN price, how does that have any effect on the market? Now, if everyone has a high BIN price...oh wait...then it's the "market value"  You consider it too high, keep looking around...or don't buy that item. I want a BMW M3, but I won't pay a dime over $3k :laugh:
> 
> Consider this: I looked far and wide to find a particular cell phone near to $100 as I could get. Closest I could find was $150. What were my choices? Go without a phone, or pay.
> 
> In the end, no one is forcing you to buy it. There's $1500 iPhones on ebay I bet. Everything sells, eventually...but maybe not for the asking price. If a buyer comes along then there's a market...if he agrees to your price, then that's a fair value. I thought that was the "beauty" of capitalism? I have something...you want it...you have to pay what I want for it in order to receive it


Damn Ryan...you took my sentiments right fom my mouth...well fingers or whatever! Well said!

To add to Ryan's coments: I personally have sold several things on ebay and while some have said my prices are high I know that with patience I can get more than those people are offering, typically! I remember when 13 years ago ebay was so small scale compared to today including eBay's available customers. Things are definitely different today. But what has not changed in any market (consider Who Moved My Cheese? for example...) 

Another example: Consider companies like Microsoft, Walmart. Most customers have a love hate relationship with them because of product, customer service and price or some combination thereof. But , they are two of the bidggest companies on the planet...why? Becasue people are motivated by price and availability mostly, there are other factors but those two are huge!

In the case of ebay sellers, several of them are selling something and they are trying to market their items like they have something special which to the right buyer can make the item more valuable (just good business as all sellers need some leverage for their product). But the bottom line is if no one ever buys the product no matter how special, the seller never really wanted to sell or they would lower their price. 

Considering the other economic models/options available for our country (Socialism, Communism, Monarchies, et al)...I prefer the ideal of capitalism. Besides with patience you can usually find what you want or you must reconsider what YOU THINK is resonable for that item (i.e. cough up the money or do without!)


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

While I agree to some of these responses to a certain extent you are all still missing the entire point. This fact alone is why we have high gas and food prices. Few people get it and see the major machine that is creating the high prices on everything.
Ill try to explain ti again. 
You have 65 responses to the word RARE on ebay in the Car Audio Section. They are all priced acceptable and do well as for as resale. Months go by and some people decide to start jacking up there prices on what is considered a Niche. Some do buy but its only the ones that can afford it and cant find it anywhere else and really dont have the time to wait months for another one to come up. Eventually 2 years pass and a trend is set. Now we see over 285 RARE auctions which are over priced and not selling well. Prices are inflated and peopel are holding out for the better price. BUT, Whats happens next is a situation we see in housing and food and gas and almost every industry. The price stays high. We are forced to pay for the high price cause now almost every seller has jumped on the train and put high prices on there RARE items. Over the past 2 years they saw others get away with it so maybe they can too. Even if there are less people buying, they will relist many times as we can see in the relisting statistics, The sellers wont go down on the prices so we are eventually made to pay or we just dot buy. If the price was $50K for an esoteric amp I could move on as you suggested but there will be someone withe the money that is stupid enough to pay. That starts the trend. Thats how all prices are made. There is no such thing as FREE market. Youre idea of a FREE market is skewed and misunderstood. 
One last example is the Apartment scene where I live. At one time the 2bed apts were 750 across the area. Then one company decided to go up. Ok well Ill go somehwere else. Well a few months later another and another jump on the train and increase there rent also. Now no matter where you go the price is higher even though the rooms are empty. People dont want to pay the higher 950 rent so they hold out thinking they will find a better price. Eventually the market is in a controlled state. You cant find any 2bed apts for 750 now. Thats what is happening with eBay. Not just in RARE items but with everything. 
We all want to make as much money as possible but you can expect to charge someone for an outrageous price that you yourself wouldnt pay. But what we are seeing is a historical movement on ebay to push the system into a controlled state of higher pricing. Just watch. The prices will get so high that eBay will be forced to change things or we will have to find yet another way to buy and sell. I saw this trend coming when they added the BIN. It forces us to pay or move on. If you move on you have to wait till you see a cheaper price. If everyone goes up on the price you have no choice but to buy or just forget about owning your favorite amp from yesteryear.......


----------



## W8 a minute

Let's see...

You've spent a year watching an auction and spent hours typing out responses on the internet to complain about it. Wouldn't it have just been easier to buy it already? How much is your time worth?


----------



## jbreddawg

Heres my little take on Ebay things. Just my opinion,take it or leave it. 
I have been buying and selling on there since 1999 so I feel I have a pretty good grasp of it. 

As a buyer, I look for the best deal I can find. Sometimes the cheapest is not the best deal. I check feedback,time selling on ebay,past sold auctions and then I make an educated purchase. 
Sometimes I find a BIN thats the bomb . I purchased a Mcintosh MC431 awhile back for 450.00 BIN and promptly flipped it for 800.00 . 
Not my fault seller was a dumbass and didnt research fair market value before listing. 

On the flip side as a seller I try to be honest and fair. I research fair market value and price a few dollars cheaper then whats selling on ebay . The buyer gets a great deal and I get a nice sale. I have some things I'm just not willing to let go unless I get my price. Thats my choice .
I also never overcharge for shipping and often lose a few dollars but oh well. 
I see head units at 50.00 shipping lol yea right, I usually ship them for free or 10.00 but thats just me. 

Now, as for the people selling on ebay and pricing things at three times market value then that is their business. I think it's crazy to price something so ridiculously high it will never sell but who am I to tell them what to do. I look, I laugh and I move on. 

I dont think the few people on ebay that are crazy are going to dictate the way pricing goes in the future of ebay. They just wont sell as much as a seller with better selling skills.


----------



## rommelrommel

Speakers4Weapons said:


> While I agree to some of these responses to a certain extent you are all still missing the entire point. This fact alone is why we have high gas and food prices. Few people get it and see the major machine that is creating the high prices on everything.
> Ill try to explain ti again.
> You have 65 responses to the word RARE on ebay in the Car Audio Section. They are all priced acceptable and do well as for as resale. Months go by and some people decide to start jacking up there prices on what is considered a Niche. Some do buy but its only the ones that can afford it and cant find it anywhere else and really dont have the time to wait months for another one to come up. Eventually 2 years pass and a trend is set. Now we see over 285 RARE auctions which are over priced and not selling well. Prices are inflated and peopel are holding out for the better price. BUT, Whats happens next is a situation we see in housing and food and gas and almost every industry. The price stays high. We are forced to pay for the high price cause now almost every seller has jumped on the train and put high prices on there RARE items. Over the past 2 years they saw others get away with it so maybe they can too. Even if there are less people buying, they will relist many times as we can see in the relisting statistics, The sellers wont go down on the prices so we are eventually made to pay or we just dot buy. If the price was $50K for an esoteric amp I could move on as you suggested but there will be someone withe the money that is stupid enough to pay. That starts the trend. Thats how all prices are made. There is no such thing as FREE market. Youre idea of a FREE market is skewed and misunderstood.
> One last example is the Apartment scene where I live. At one time the 2bed apts were 750 across the area. Then one company decided to go up. Ok well Ill go somehwere else. Well a few months later another and another jump on the train and increase there rent also. Now no matter where you go the price is higher even though the rooms are empty. People dont want to pay the higher 950 rent so they hold out thinking they will find a better price. Eventually the market is in a controlled state. You cant find any 2bed apts for 750 now. Thats what is happening with eBay. Not just in RARE items but with everything.
> We all want to make as much money as possible but you can expect to charge someone for an outrageous price that you yourself wouldnt pay. But what we are seeing is a historical movement on ebay to push the system into a controlled state of higher pricing. Just watch. The prices will get so high that eBay will be forced to change things or we will have to find yet another way to buy and sell. I saw this trend coming when they added the BIN. It forces us to pay or move on. If you move on you have to wait till you see a cheaper price. If everyone goes up on the price you have no choice but to buy or just forget about owning your favorite amp from yesteryear.......


I totally think the government should start legislating the prices of all goods/services available for sale, that way we can have lower prices and everyone will be happier.


----------



## hottcakes

rommelrommel said:


> I totally think the government should start legislating the prices of all goods/services available for sale, that way we can have lower prices and everyone will be happier.


maybe the government should just issue anything and everything we need and do away with the market altogether.


----------



## truckerfte

rommelrommel said:


> I totally think the government should start legislating the prices of all goods/services available for sale, that way we can have lower prices and everyone will be happier.



I was going to jump all over this, then realized where you are from. Its not your fault you were brought up in a socialist society. 

As for the guy bitching about apartment prices, no one is forcing anyone to live anywhere. No one has the right to housing.(Here comed the hate mail from mis-guided lefties). Did you stop to think that there may be a reason why those rents went up? I doubt someone just thought "hey, ill jack up the rates today". What I don't doubt is that the property taxes went up. I bet the insurance rates did too. So did the guys mowing the lawns. And the pool boy. And the maintenance crew. And rthe lady in the front office. I bet whatever utilities the complex is providing did as well. All that extra expense has to be paid for somehow. And some developer didn't built those apartrments to provide people housing. They did it to make a profit, and for no other reason. 

You don't like the price of living? Cut your lifestyle. Or make more money. Or both.


----------



## daudioman

Speakers4Weapons said:


> One last example is the Apartment scene where I live. At one time the 2bed apts were 750 across the area. Then one company decided to go up. Ok well Ill go somehwere else. Well a few months later another and another jump on the train and increase there rent also. Now no matter where you go the price is higher even though the rooms are empty. People dont want to pay the higher 950 rent so they hold out thinking they will find a better price. Eventually the market is in a controlled state. You cant find any 2bed apts for 750 now. Thats what is happening with eBay. Not just in RARE items but with everything.
> .......


Considering the apartment example there are some things to consider:

inflation price effects: self explanatory.

market self corrections: we all know ALL capitalistic markets eventually self correct at some point. So if everyone tries to sell for higher than consumers want to pay then no sales are made, and the market...you guessed it...self corrects! 

But the real problem is consumers can overspend for a variety of reasons that are way off topic for this discussion. Furthermore, IMHO the apartment example is inherently flawed considering you are comparing consumers spending habits concerning wants (car stereo items) vs. needs (housing). People spend on these categories differently for this reason alone. 

In its purest form capitalism is still the most efficient way for money to be exchanged for goods and services. Anything other economic system other than a barter economy just gets in the way of buyers and sellers. 

I think we have beat this topic to death and the funny thing is the message IMHO is being sent to what I think is the wrong audience! Ironically while I understand your point, I feel that the market will take care if itself. After all you cannot protect every uninformed consumer...

Caveat emptor!




truckerfte said:


> ...As for the guy bitching about apartment prices, no one is forcing anyone to live anywhere. No one has the right to housing..... Did you stop to think that there may be a reason why those rents went up? I doubt someone just thought "hey, ill jack up the rates today". ...


Well said...!


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

truckerfte said:


> I was going to jump all over this, then realized where you are from. Its not your fault you were brought up in a socialist society.
> 
> As for the guy bitching about apartment prices, no one is forcing anyone to live anywhere. No one has the right to housing.(Here comed the hate mail from mis-guided lefties). Did you stop to think that there may be a reason why those rents went up? I doubt someone just thought "hey, ill jack up the rates today". What I don't doubt is that the property taxes went up. I bet the insurance rates did too. So did the guys mowing the lawns. And the pool boy. And the maintenance crew. And rthe lady in the front office. I bet whatever utilities the complex is providing did as well. All that extra expense has to be paid for somehow. And some developer didn't built those apartrments to provide people housing. They did it to make a profit, and for no other reason.
> 
> You don't like the price of living? Cut your lifestyle. Or make more money. Or both.


Yea I can see why we are in such a F##ked up situationin the USA. Its attitude that you just expressed, pay up or be left out, that has caused poverty, crime etc etc. The reality is, rather than your grand dillusion of what you think is acceptable, is that people , companies do just decide to hike up prices for no reason. That alone causes me and you and everybody else to struggle for more money. You really think people can just go find a new job? You really think people can just say, "well since everybody just went up on there rent I just wont live here" ********! Its like saying, I just wont pay for gas casue everybody is at about $3 right now which I think is too high. In other words, you HAVE TO PAY cause the price is now across the board. You cant just say, " no one made you move into an apt" Yes i can. Or Ill be homeless you azzhole! And I really dont want to be calling you names but you have disrespected me by saying I should just pay up or shut up! Or that I should just drop dead as well as my kids!


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

The idea of "nobody forced you to buy" is ********! Especially when I have to pay for many things just to survive! Those things ARE going up in price all the time and I cant just say I wont buy them or go elsewhere cause the prices are high everywhere. And when we look at our time off from work, our hobbies, the things that make us smile and give us things to do besides being a slave a work, all those things such as car audio, computers, nintendo, they are all getting more and more expensive also because the sales person decided to go up in price. Its called Greed and it starts a chain reaction to make others struggle for more money in turn generating higher prices on other things. It isnt so easy to say, "Go elsewhere" when everybody has a stupid high price on the same item. The main fact I showed was the numbers. There is 3 times more RARE items being listed now and those items were the same items 2 years ago just MORE expensive. The reason why its now 280 rather than 65 is cause people arent buying! You see relistings over and over! Eventually we wont have any chance of buying the esoteric audio or whatever your favorite amp is cause it will be too expensive. Just as the gas is doing now. 
As for the pricks who say " no one forced you to buy" tell that to your kids when they start college and are forced to buy or rent books for hundreds of dollars which you cant get anywhere else. Tell your Grandparents that when they get sick and need the expensive medication only one pharmaceutical is selling. Tell that to yourself when you need to fill up on gas for a summer trip. Tell that to wife when you gotta pay a stupid amount of daycare for your new borne.
I posted one little item number and someone always has to respond with " if you dont like the price dont bid" No ****! I know that! 
Come up with better response
I know Im not forced to but the car amp or speakers but eventually, if things keep going in this direction everything, including your favorite amp will be too expensive.


----------



## JAX

cant beleive this became a post. its really not that important. got more important issues in the world than some overpriced speakers. heh?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

JAX said:


> cant beleive this became a post. its really not that important. got more important issues in the world than some overpriced speakers. heh?













Jax WINS!


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

I agree. Lets move on....


----------



## ryan s

jbreddawg said:


> Heres my little take on Ebay things. Just my opinion,take it or leave it.
> I have been buying and selling on there since 1999 so I feel I have a pretty good grasp of it.
> 
> As a buyer, I look for the best deal I can find. Sometimes the cheapest is not the best deal. I check feedback,time selling on ebay,past sold auctions and then I make an educated purchase.
> Sometimes I find a BIN thats the bomb . I purchased a Mcintosh MC431 awhile back for 450.00 BIN and promptly flipped it for 800.00 .
> Not my fault seller was a dumbass and didnt research fair market value before listing.
> 
> On the flip side as a seller I try to be honest and fair. I research fair market value and price a few dollars cheaper then whats selling on ebay . The buyer gets a great deal and I get a nice sale. I have some things I'm just not willing to let go unless I get my price. Thats my choice .
> I also never overcharge for shipping and often lose a few dollars but oh well.
> I see head units at 50.00 shipping lol yea right, I usually ship them for free or 10.00 but thats just me.
> 
> Now, as for the people selling on ebay and pricing things at three times market value then that is their business. I think it's crazy to price something so ridiculously high it will never sell but who am I to tell them what to do. I look, I laugh and I move on.
> 
> I dont think the few people on ebay that are crazy are going to dictate the way pricing goes in the future of ebay. They just wont sell as much as a seller with better selling skills.


Fully agreed.

I look at it two ways if you find a good deal:
1. The person has the same access to the same internet as you or I do
2. If they asked $450 for an amp, for example, and they get it...they're happy

And also, does not my knowledge of what something's worth come into play? If I see something for $10 and know it's worth $100, am I not entitled to use that *education *to turn around and sell it at a fair market price? 



Speakers4Weapons said:


> The idea of "nobody forced you to buy" is ********! Especially when I have to pay for many things just to survive! Those things ARE going up in price all the time and I cant just say I wont buy them or go elsewhere cause the prices are high everywhere. And when we look at our time off from work, our hobbies, the things that make us smile and give us things to do besides being a slave a work, all those things such as car audio, computers, nintendo, they are all getting more and more expensive also because the sales person decided to go up in price. Its called Greed and it starts a chain reaction to make others struggle for more money in turn generating higher prices on other things. It isnt so easy to say, "Go elsewhere" when everybody has a stupid high price on the same item. The main fact I showed was the numbers. There is 3 times more RARE items being listed now and those items were the same items 2 years ago just MORE expensive. The reason why its now 280 rather than 65 is cause people arent buying! You see relistings over and over! Eventually we wont have any chance of buying the esoteric audio or whatever your favorite amp is cause it will be too expensive. Just as the gas is doing now.
> As for the pricks who say " no one forced you to buy" tell that to your kids when they start college and are forced to buy or rent books for hundreds of dollars which you cant get anywhere else. Tell your Grandparents that when they get sick and need the expensive medication only one pharmaceutical is selling. Tell that to yourself when you need to fill up on gas for a summer trip. Tell that to wife when you gotta pay a stupid amount of daycare for your new borne.
> I posted one little item number and someone always has to respond with " if you dont like the price dont bid" No ****! I know that!
> Come up with better response
> I know Im not forced to but the car amp or speakers but eventually, if things keep going in this direction everything, including your favorite amp will be too expensive.


Again, welcome to A Heavily Deregulated Capitalistic Economy: 101.

While I agree with part about people not being able to afford necessities (housing, healthcare, etc) the rest is just backwards. You want something, you have to pay for it. You think gas is expensive, find ways to not consume it. Walk, bike, ride the bus, share rides, sell your car/truck and get something more fuel efficient. 

The argument is flawed because there's a distinct line between "food is becoming more expensive" and "that amp you've wanted since you were 16 becoming more expensive." Car audio is a *luxury *unless you're a professional. I'd be more pissed about stagnating wages for the middle class over the last 40 years than the price tag attached to a particular product...that affects 100% of your buying power. And that point leads to...

...the paradox of the situation: You have access to the internet (obviously...since this thread exists)...are you happy that access to the web is cheaper than it was 10 years ago?  Maybe take that savings and put it towards that old gear you want...look around at all the items and services which have become cheaper or have not gone up relative to inflation and reconsider old items in that light


----------



## 9mmmac

Mid 80's GM indash? Man, these remind me of doing delivery for the Chinese joint I used to work for. I could see speakers just like this every time I got in and out of the car. But for that price? I'd just whiz on 'em...


----------



## thehatedguy

Eh, been eBaying since the mid 90s. It turned to **** a long time a go and I thought everyone got the memo back in 2005.


----------



## rommelrommel

truckerfte said:


> I was going to jump all over this, then realized where you are from. Its not your fault you were brought up in a socialist society.


Apparent sarcasm fail on my part. Or maybe yours, it's not my fault that you were born in a state full of uneducated ********, right?


----------



## Wheres The Butta

rommelrommel said:


> Apparent sarcasm fail on my part. Or maybe yours, it's not my fault that you were born in a state full of uneducated ********, right?


I thought your sarcasm was obvious, lol


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

I guess Im just wishing the world would be more fair and more respectful. Reality is it sucks. Yea that dude with the whizzer cone speakers is just a POS. But then again he is doin what he thinks he gotta do to make ends meet. Im just sick about the world, the way it MAKES us do this kinda bullshyt so we can pay for what we need and want...


----------



## icu812

I've got Ocean side Property in Arizona for a BIN $50


----------



## thehatedguy

Would you take $30 and free shipping? My buddy just bought some on eBay for $25.


----------



## truckerfte

Speakers4Weapons said:


> Yea I can see why we are in such a F##ked up situationin the USA. Its attitude that you just expressed, pay up or be left out, that has caused poverty, crime etc etc. The reality is, rather than your grand dillusion of what you think is acceptable, is that people , companies do just decide to hike up prices for no reason. That alone causes me and you and everybody else to struggle for more money. You really think people can just go find a new job? You really think people can just say, "well since everybody just went up on there rent I just wont live here" ********! Its like saying, I just wont pay for gas casue everybody is at about $3 right now which I think is too high. In other words, you HAVE TO PAY cause the price is now across the board. You cant just say, " no one made you move into an apt" Yes i can. Or Ill be homeless you azzhole! And I really dont want to be calling you names but you have disrespected me by saying I should just pay up or shut up! Or that I should just drop dead as well as my kids!



poverty is a mental disease. in a free market society, prices are allowed to go up for any reason. if the market wont bear it, they come back down. I have given you a completely plausible explaniation as to why things like appt rents can go up. 

yes, i do think people can just up and go get another, higher paying job. even in this economy. thats why your too high gas prices are what they are, because i dont work for free(oilfield worker, and i am severely oversimplyifing the gas situation).Are you saying that i should take a pay cut so gas falls to a price that you find satisfactory? either pay the three bucks, or dont drive. it is that simple. 


maybe i am an *******, but at one time I WAS A HOMELESS *******!!! been there, done that. I have ZERO sympathy for any able-bodied person in that situation, because i have been there, done that. And busted my ass to get out of it. had i stayed there, it would have been my fault, and mine alone. Dont you dare blame a capitalist system for bringing people down. they do it to themselves. that same capitalist system has taken me to where i am today, and will take me to where i will be tomorrow. If you are struggling for money, figure out what you are doing wrong, and change it. Im not. Im not smarter than most people, stronger, or faster, or better than anyone. I just realized that POVERTY IS A MENTAL DISEASE, and decided that i didnt want to be there any more. I quit blaming my problems on situations, and got my ass in gear. IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE


Back on subject, if that guy can sell those speakers at that price, i have a job for him.


----------



## truckerfte

rommelrommel said:


> Apparent sarcasm fail on my part. Or maybe yours, it's not my fault that you were born in a state full of uneducated ********, right?


i got it, and responded in kind. lol, i thought everyone knew that those uneducated ******** came from oklahoma. and fyi, i was born in the state that is home to the worlds elite overly educated lefty folks...California


----------



## JAX

why are we still talking about this and what the hell is this guy so pissed about from an ebay add?

almost sounds like he is about to go postal.

enough already. crap...I hate to see you go to the grocery store to buy milk...or something.


----------



## truckerfte

JAX said:


> cant beleive this became a post. its really not that important. got more important issues in the world than some overpriced speakers. heh?


Agreed, there are issues more important. and the thread is headed into a tangent that just might be covering one of those issues......


----------



## daudioman

Speakers4Weapons said:


> The idea of "nobody forced you to buy" is ********! Especially when I have to pay for many things just to survive! Those things ARE going up in price all the time and I cant just say I wont buy them or go elsewhere cause the prices are high everywhere. ...


I'm truly not making this a personal attack but you (we) as consumers have more power especially than you realize...for example...





Speakers4Weapons said:


> ...As for the pricks who say " no one forced you to buy" tell that to your kids when they start college and are forced to buy or rent books for hundreds of dollars which you cant get anywhere else.


Been there done that. Been to college twice; Graduated once with a plain BS (what I can B*@LSH!T degree) and it combined with my ignorance and lack of motivation got me nowhere. Thats what happens when you go to school with daddy' s money!

Graduating in May 2011 with a better degree: BS in Electrical Engineering. *NOW *even in this ecenomy I will make better money and be able to afford all this stuff we love to buy...!!!

I took out school loans for the money (a good value for me considering what my lifetime earnings will be with this degree). Also consider also that I did not buy my books in the bookstore. That would be crazy! Why would I when the internet is available all you need is an ISBN and/or the Title with the author. For example, all of my books are International Editions (avg. $30 per book) that are pennies on the dollar (no exaggeration google it yourself). I even have some books on pdf. too! (thats harder to pull off but possible). I think I have had to actually buy one standard US Edition, but I still found it on eBay for about 70% off my schools bookstores new price.

One semester I even asked the professor if I could use the older edition of the book and he admitted to me that he preferred it so I checked the problems from the 10th edition (what I had) with the 11th edition (the new edition) when HW was due so I could do the HW. Funny thing is the book differences were done to require schools and students to buy them changing just enough to justify a new edition. Oh yeah, authors and publishing companies are trying to make a buck as College textbooks are big business! But I had to be more resourceful. ...

Bottom line, I laugh when I see people in line at the bookstore and wonder why they are paying so much for the same information? ...again its the choces you make...





Speakers4Weapons said:


> Tell your Grandparents that when they get sick and need the expensive medication only one pharmaceutical is selling.


Well admittedly thats a tougher one but people buy their drugs from Canada for example! LOL!!! Seriously, this problem is tougher to tackle therefore people need to be more proactive aboout "their" treatment. Its been shown with our medical system that their are conflicts of interest that arise with doctors, drug companies, hospitals, the government etc along with serious waste...and I dont evvy anyone with this situation. But again being resourceful is the key...make sure the treatment your are receiving is really what you need and not some agenda to line a drug companies/hospitals pocket!





Speakers4Weapons said:


> Tell that to yourself when you need to fill up on gas for a summer trip.


Too easy! Havent you heard of a staycation :laugh:!!!!!! anyways I would be too busy looking for deals on everything else to go on vacation!





Speakers4Weapons said:


> Tell that to wife when you gotta pay a stupid amount of daycare for your new borne.


Been there too. Two kids later and a wife currently in grad school while she stays at home with them until my youngest is old enough to go to school. Then she works, thus avoiding daycare costs! Again you have to overcome you situation by outpacing it!





Speakers4Weapons said:


> I posted one little item number and someone always has to respond with " if you dont like the price dont bid" No ****! I know that! Come up with better response...


I think my responses are well thoughtout and honestly I would challenge you to come up with something other than "the world need to lower its prices..." I realy dont think you are going to get very far with that argument whether your busy trying to convince others while not focusniog on yourself thus playing the victim. That will make you feel like your losing everytime!





Speakers4Weapons said:


> I know Im not forced to but the car amp or speakers but eventually, if things keep going in this direction everything, including your favorite amp will be too expensive.


I think you know the answer(s) to that one...(see above)!


----------



## truckerfte

daudioman said:


> Well admittedly thats a tougher one but people buy their drugs from Canada for example! LOL!!! Seriously, this problem is tougher to tackle therefore people need to be more proactive aboout "their" treatment. Its been shown with our medical system that their are conflicts of interest that arise with doctors, drug companies, hospitals, the government etc along with serious waste...and I dont evvy anyone with this situation. But again being resourceful is the key...make sure the treatment your are receiving is really what you need and not some agenda to line a drug companies/hospitals pocket!



From my own personal life, current events. The operation i am undergoing is not covered by insurance. I am having to pay for it out of pocket. I could hav sat around and whined and bitched about the high cost of healthcare in the US.
Instead, i did a little research. Turns out, there are other countries in the world not burdened by the cost of legislation, malpractice, and a leviathan govt oversight administration.I am having the operation done at a small fraction of the cost here. Even better, i am having an "updated" version of this surgery performed, instead of several more years of waiting(and expense of) to get fda approval.


...really, all it takes is a little more work, and less whining...

my surgery is scheduled for March 25th, in cancun, at about a quarter the cost of doing it here....with us educated surgeons. who, btw, have more experience at this type of procedure than most us doctors


----------



## ryan s

truckerfte said:


> i got it, and responded in kind. lol, i thought everyone knew that those uneducated ******** came from oklahoma. and fyi, i was born in the state that is home to the worlds elite overly educated lefty folks...California


Why are only "liberals" "elite"? Are there no "conservative" "elite"?

What's wrong with being "overly educated" anyway? The irony is that you're going to Mexico for a surgery and I quote:



> with us educated surgeons. who, btw, have more experience at this type of procedure than most us doctors


They should have stopped learning after they got their degree like the rest of America! :surprised: :laugh:


----------



## truckerfte

ryan s said:


> Why are only "liberals" "elite"? Are there no "conservative" "elite"?
> 
> What's wrong with being "overly educated" anyway? The irony is that you're going to Mexico for a surgery and I quote:
> 
> They should have stopped learning after they got their degree like the rest of America! :surprised: :laugh:



indeed there are conservative elites. but cali isnt exactly known for them now, are they? (nancy pelosi, 9th circuit court of appeals, ect)

nothing wrong with being overly educated, but "those" peopple seem to think that their academic pedigree means that they know how to run the lives of us "common people" (and that IS how they see us)


And as far as the surgeon thing goes, well, big brother is doing a good job of keeping innovation at bay in the US. in a way, US doctors have stopped learning after they got their degrees. Its pretty sad that i can have a safe, and proven procedure done in a third world country, but not here at home. hell, by the time the fda gets around to accepting my deal, the rest of the world will have already moved on to something else. The world leader is playing catch-up to the world these days. 

Come to think about it, the liberals, lack of innovation, and the cost of medical care aren't unrelated. Just wait until Obama care comes into full effect. you think our "health care system" is a joke now, just wait. people doing what i am are going to be the rule, not the exception. For now, my surgeon tells me percentage wise, he sees more canadian and european patients than american....wonder why the people who supposedly live under superior public health care systems are flocking to third world countries for their medical care......


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

At truckerfte- "poverty is a mental disease" ? WTF? Look I realize people need the last word which is a pride thing but this is such a dumb ass comment. Reading your responses is like reading about a kid who did something bad at school and the parents came to school to ***** at the teachers! Your that kid. Your ideologies are horrible. You have no real values. You dont see the big picture. You think you have the answers and post them as responses in hopes of getting appraisal from others just as you did back in school. Well. Grow up. Poverty isnt a mental disease. Its reality for millions of people unfortunate enough to even have a computer much less eat a slice of old bread. No matter how sad or happy there mental state , they are in a state of poverty. Have you seen the news lately? The world is crumbling. Or is that just another state of mentality. Dumb ass. And to show everybody just what kind of person you are you offer the guy (the ebay seller that charges a ridiculous amount on cheap speakers that everyone here is in disgust of) a job! As if anybody here will want to do biz with you now. I sure as hell wouldnt want too. Congrats on coming out of homelessness by treating people with utter disrespect just as you said yourself that you are an *******. Congrats on making it out of the homeless nation you were in by most likely, selling overpriced 20 year old garbage and labeling it as new RARE and must have like the ebay seller. Apparently that is what you did right? Cause I cant see you being honest at all! To show true colors even more you go on to tell us you are sick. You suddenly realized that the great Capitalist society you are so much in love with and got you out of the homeless state you were in, has made insurance, health and hospital programs ridiculously expensive! That realization has made you travel outside the USA to get your money worth and get you appropriate health care. Ironic. Why not stay in USA where you came out of homelessness and jack up your prices more so you can pay for your health care? That is what you recommend, or atleast condone after your statement of hiring someone that does such things. Well, good luck at the hospital there. Maybe when you get to the Dr there they will give you some Prozac and let you know that your sickness is all in your head. Its probably just a mental state! Have your last word then move on. As I said before, Move on so we can all seek other subjects to read upon. This subject has been elaborated upon and responded onto with enough thought. We dont need more of your lame ass ignorant input. And that IS my state of mentality on this here subject.


----------



## truckerfte

Im not so sure about people not wanting to do business with me in here....ive sold about $800 worth of goods on this site in the last 24 hours....without screwing anyone, and frankly, they all have gotten very good deals. so dont go worrying about my ability to take care of myself. 
instead of launching personal attacks, you should perhaps try and prove me wrong. what you feel is of no interest to me. 
You dont like my statement that poverty is a mental disease? don't read this next statement....THERE IS NO POVERTY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. No where else in the world is there such a privileged underclass. Even the poorest amongst us have access to food, shelter, clothing, plumbing, refrigeration,healthcare, electricity, internet, ect, ect, ect. For ****s sake, i watched a homeless guy whip out a cell phone the other day. 

As far as my choice to have my operation outside the US, i will be more than happy to defend my decision. First off, you need to understand WHY healthcare is so expensive in the US. This "poverty ridden" country is kind enough to provide anyone who walks through the ER doors with "free" medical care. If you can wrap your mind around the concept of a balance sheet, you will quickly understand why it is that paying customers are charged so much. Because they are paying for the people who could not pay as well.
Now, why are grandpa and grandpa's drugs so damn high? I bet you didn't know that it costs in the neighborhood of 5BILLION dollars to bring any particular drug to market. And there is only a short window before generic versions can become available. The evil companies are not in business to keep granny alive. They are here to turn a profit. They are(for now) allowed to do this. The minute there is no profit motivation, there is no innovation. Quit whining about it....had those innovations not been created, granny would have died 25 years ago. Im so sorry that you don't understand the correlation between us capitalist pigs, and granpa's heart meds keeping him alive. Again, this is an overly simplified version of the situation. And we haven't even gotten into the cost of regulations yet. 
Which brings me to Mexico. You may not grasp this, but very little of the cost of health care in the US is actually healthcare. You are paying for those people that the hospital is so kind to care for that cant afford it. You are paying for a long line of bureaucrats that regulate what should be a decision between a person and their doctor. You are paying for the hospitals, doctors, and everyone else's malpractice insurance.With the sue happy nature of outright scam artists these days, this amounts to a huge cost added to healthcare. 
Sad thing is, people with "your" mentality is causing the problem. You want the poor covered, you want new and cool procedures and drugs. you want to sue the doctor for millions of dollars if that broken leg didnt heal the way you think it should have. Yet you think it shouldnt be paid for?
That is why im going to mexico. the capitalists still run the private healthcare system there.....that poor third world country has absolutely smoked the us in that regard. I vote with my hard earned dollars.Im not having to pay to keep your granny alive there.....

Go ahead, call me all the names you want. Trust me, ive heard it all before. I have been in a lower place than you have ever been, i am in a higher place than you are now. and my journey isnt over yet. I do resent your attacks on my character. I have never screwed anyone over for anything. I just plain busted my ass to get to where i am. Im so sorry you feel that the world is such a ****ed up place that a person is either sentenced to a life of "poverty", or has to rape. pillage and plunder to claw his way out of that life. 

You have a defeatist attitude that will keep you right where you are in life

........and that my friend, is why i can say with ZERO uncertainty that

POVERTY IS A MENTAL DISEASE


----------



## ryan s

truckerfte said:


> indeed there are conservative elites. but cali isnt exactly known for them now, are they? (nancy pelosi, 9th circuit court of appeals, ect)


Ok, now that we have that established...


truckerfte said:


> nothing wrong with being overly educated, but "those" peopple seem to think that their academic pedigree means that they know how to run the lives of us "common people" (and that IS how they see us)


"Those" people...the "liberals," the "elite," or the "liberal elite"?

There is no one in a position of power today who is not an "elite"...whether they have an -R or -D or -I behind their name. Yet, regular people don't get elected...hmm.



truckerfte said:


> And as far as the surgeon thing goes, well, big brother is doing a good job of keeping innovation at bay in the US. in a way, US doctors have stopped learning after they got their degrees. Its pretty sad that i can have a safe, and proven procedure done in a third world country, but not here at home. hell, by the time the fda gets around to accepting my deal, the rest of the world will have already moved on to something else. The world leader is playing catch-up to the world these days.


Not even worth discussing once "Big Brother" is brought into it... :worried:


truckerfte said:


> Come to think about it, the liberals, lack of innovation, and the cost of medical care aren't unrelated. Just wait until Obama care comes into full effect. you think our "health care system" is a joke now, just wait. people doing what i am are going to be the rule, not the exception. For now, my surgeon tells me percentage wise, he sees more canadian and european patients than american....wonder why the people who supposedly live under superior public health care systems are flocking to third world countries for their medical care......


I feel like there's something you're leaving out here. Seeing a greater percentage of Europeans and Canadians leads me to think maybe this surgery isn't exactly...mainstream? As in, not quite perfected or proven? Because with a more liberal health care system (which you agree Europe and Canada practice) they would be more inclined to do the surgery...right? Right.

I'm not just going to take "my surgeon tells me so" as fact 

I definitely wouldn't hold up "third world" and "surgery" to be the pinnacle of, well, anything. Guatemalan plastic surgery, anyone?

Health care is a joke because insurance companies are allowed to do whatever they choose. Also, because you're paying for those who don't have coverage (yes, even American citizens ) it becomes more expensive for those paying...reducing that "load" is a goal of the ACA. Everyone pays. It may seem more OMGSocialist!!11 but we're already paying for those who can't.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

how did this turn into a healthcare referendum?

I might as well jump on the bandwagon and trumpet my opinion - I think I can sum up my beliefs in one sentence:

"American capitalism is cruel and soulless, but it's still better than everything else out there, like being the best cancer cell in a giant tumor."


----------



## truckerfte

Yes, there are elite types on both sides of the isle. I damn sure don't wave the flag for the gop either. 

The surgery IS mainstream. Everywhere else, but here. BHO himself even admitted last week in a speech that over-regulation is killing both business and medical innovation in the US. I don't see him actually doing much about it, but ill accept that things change in baby steps. But like I told SFw, with no profit motive, there will be no innovation. So if most red tape is cut, you still are going to have bio-med companies reluctant to invest in developing new "stuff", because with this new system coming upon us, they will be having to try to cover their costs and make a profit under a price control environment. 

Medical care is a consumer good. You do not have a right to it just because you exist. You have the right to acquire it, at your own expense. Yes, its a harsh stance. Its also fact. Doctors don't go to school for 12 years and set up a practice to be kind to hummanity. The bio-meds don't INVEST billions to bring a drug to market to feel good. They do it to get paid. It really is that simple. Sure there a few feel-good drs who want to heal the world. Most of them are in Africa somewhere. 

Just a couple of weeks ago the ever so popular Dr Drew was giving an interview. (Disclosure, it was on Howard Stern). He told his kids outright not to go into medicine. His reasoning was thart it is overly regulated, and that the patient-doctor relationship is now an adversarial one. 

What exactly do you think is going to happen when millions of people are suddenly put into a system that is short on resources as it is? The fact is OMGsocialism has failed every place it has been tried. With those elite-types running the show, they honestly believe that it will work this time because they are smarter, and america can do it better. 

If the new system lives( and I'm sure it will, people will always vote in thir best interest, no matter what the cost to someone else is), get back with me in 15 years and we will discuss how well it worked out!


----------



## truckerfte

bd5034 said:


> how did this turn into a healthcare referendum?
> 
> I might as well jump on the bandwagon and trumpet my opinion - I think I can sum up my beliefs in one sentence:
> 
> "American capitalism is cruel and soulless, but it's still better than everything else out there, like being the best cancer cell in a giant tumor."


Tangents happen. OP was complaining about the (inflated) cost of goods. A couple of us pointed out that there ARE alternatives, if you are willing to show a little self-interest and find them. It morphed from there.

I think that this should be moved to OT myself. 

And your quote is dead on. Either accept it and work with it, or you are screwed. Or go find some nice little socialist-leaning country to live in.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

truckerfte said:


> Yes, there are elite types on both sides of the isle. I damn sure don't wave the flag for the gop either.
> 
> The surgery IS mainstream. Everywhere else, but here. BHO himself even admitted last week in a speech that over-regulation is killing both business and medical innovation in the US. I don't see him actually doing much about it, but ill accept that things change in baby steps. But like I told SFw, with no profit motive, there will be no innovation. So if most red tape is cut, you still are going to have bio-med companies reluctant to invest in developing new "stuff", because with this new system coming upon us, they will be having to try to cover their costs and make a profit under a price control environment.
> 
> Medical care is a consumer good. You do not have a right to it just because you exist. You have the right to acquire it, at your own expense. Yes, its a harsh stance. Its also fact. *Doctors don't go to school for 12 years and set up a practice to be kind to hummanity.* The bio-meds don't INVEST billions to bring a drug to market to feel good. They do it to get paid. It really is that simple. Sure there a few feel-good drs who want to heal the world. Most of them are in Africa somewhere.
> 
> Just a couple of weeks ago the ever so popular Dr Drew was giving an interview. (Disclosure, it was on Howard Stern). He told his kids outright not to go into medicine. His reasoning was thart it is overly regulated, and that the patient-doctor relationship is now an adversarial one.
> 
> What exactly do you think is going to happen when millions of people are suddenly put into a system that is short on resources as it is? The fact is OMGsocialism has failed every place it has been tried. With those elite-types running the show, they honestly believe that it will work this time because they are smarter, and america can do it better.
> 
> If the new system lives( and I'm sure it will, people will always vote in thir best interest, no matter what the cost to someone else is), get back with me in 15 years and we will discuss how well it worked out!


I think you're wrong about that. If the doctors only cared about profit, they would have gone into finance. Less school, more profit, better perks, and you don't have to deal with sick people. 

Dr. Drew is right about one thing for sure - the doctor/patient relationship has changed, and patients just don't respect the doctors at all anymore. They think they know everything because they read a 3 paragraph summary on wikipedia. lol.


----------



## rommelrommel

I agree that's a problem with the patient doctor relationship but I think a lot of it is backlash from 100 years of doctors having ALL the information and not being willing to share it. Now people have access to arguably more information than the doctors have (not to say that it's all good information by any stretch) and a lot of doctors don't like that when they say "take drug A" some patients are now saying "well why not drug B or therapy C?"


----------



## Wheres The Butta

rommelrommel said:


> I agree that's a problem with the patient doctor relationship but I think a lot of it is backlash from 100 years of doctors having ALL the information and not being willing to share it. Now people have access to arguably more information than the doctors have (not to say that it's all good information by any stretch) and a lot of doctors don't like that when they say "take drug A" some patients are now saying "well why not drug B or therapy C?"


just for full disclosure, I am most definitely the guy who questions the wisdom of the doctor. :laugh: I always think I know what's best for me, even though I often don't have a clue!


----------



## truckerfte

rommelrommel said:


> I agree that's a problem with the patient doctor relationship but I think a lot of it is backlash from 100 years of doctors having ALL the information and not being willing to share it. Now people have access to arguably more information than the doctors have (not to say that it's all good information by any stretch) and a lot of doctors don't like that when they say "take drug A" some patients are now saying "well why not drug B or therapy C?"



I should clarify the Dr Drew thing. He was referring to litigation. His example was a dr could treat a guy for a sprained ankle, and 2 years later have a lawsuit for 10m against him because the guy says he can't walk right now....


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

again at truckerfte.
I didnt even bother reading your entire response. Maybe later when I feel I need to be more entertained by an idiot? IDK
Ill respond to the few things I gazed over. 
The thing about you thinking poverty is a mental state, well lets turn to the thousands who just happened to loose there homes due to the banking system! Lets also turn to look at the thousands who were robbed over the years by the IRS and had there homes taken. Im sure they will really love the statements you make about Poverty being a mental state and that its a great system we have, to screw over people into buyng things for higher than what they are worth. Look seriously, All of your responses about why the health care system is so flawed. True we do pay for the homeless people that cant afford healthcare but we there are people out there that pay for the $25 pill. The $7000 a month prescription. High copays, deductibles. You really think its ok to pay $15000 of hospital bills for just 3 days stay and nothing done but just laying in the bed? You really think that its ok to pay $1500 just to walk into an ER and do a basic blood test such as a cbc? I sure dont. Its isnt just cause we all pay for the ones who cant. Its to pay for the luxurious and rediculously over paid Doctors and there homes and lifestyles. Also even if it does $5billion to make a drug, which is a stupid exaggeration since you respond with hear say from odd websites, how is it that the UK andother places like Canada have the ability to sale there drugs at upto a 90% lower cost than the US? They all come from the same place.
And lets not forget the billions that WERE DONATED over the past decades to cure cancer and other sickness without ever finding ONE cure! Amazing how your capitalist, free market system that pulled you out of homelessness has managed to suck most of us dry and let us die! But you insist on going to a different country to seek health care? Yea it speaks volumes on your behalf. 
Hey I have a great idea for you. Why not become homeless again so you can have all of us on this forum pay for your surgery! *******!


----------



## rommelrommel

I don't think it's fair to say that it's ONLY a mental issue, but for a LOT of people it is. They are either mentally incompetant (I don't mean this in an unkind way, some people are just not mentally able to do things like pay bills) or just choose to live like that, or are just too ****ing lazy, or feel too entitled.


----------



## rommelrommel

Speakers4Weapons said:


> again at truckerfte.
> I didnt even bother reading your entire response. Maybe later when I feel I need to be more entertained by an idiot? IDK
> Ill respond to the few things I gazed over.
> The thing about you thinking poverty is a mental state, well lets turn to the thousands who just happened to loose there homes due to the banking system!


Losing your house doesn't automatically make you homeless.



> Lets also turn to look at the thousands who were robbed over the years by the IRS and had there homes taken.


See above. 



> Im sure they will really love the statements you make about Poverty being a mental state and that its a great system we have, to screw over people into buyng things for higher than what they are worth.


You really don't understand a free market at all do you? Things do not have inherent value, the market decides what they are worth in proportion to other things. 



> Look seriously, All of your responses about why the health care system is so flawed. True we do pay for the homeless people that cant afford healthcare but we there are people out there that pay for the $25 pill. The $7000 a month prescription.


Yeah well, I guess they decided that those things are worthwhile?



> High copays, deductibles. You really think its ok to pay $15000 of hospital bills for just 3 days stay and nothing done but just laying in the bed? You really think that its ok to pay $1500 just to walk into an ER and do a basic blood test such as a cbc? I sure dont.


No, that's not OK (imo), but high hospital costs can't be cured by price fixing. They're cured by reducing expenses. 



> Its isnt just cause we all pay for the ones who cant. Its to pay for the luxurious and rediculously over paid Doctors and there homes and lifestyles.


Look into what the average doctor NETS a year in comparison to their education costs (both money spend on education and time out of the workforce.) They aren't that ridiculously overpaid... underpaid is more like it in some sectors.



> Also even if it does $5billion to make a drug, which is a stupid exaggeration since you respond with hear say from odd websites, how is it that the UK andother places like Canada have the ability to sale there drugs at upto a 90% lower cost than the US?


Do you know the difference between manufacturing costs and R&D costs? Most countries fix the price of drugs. The US doesn't. Unfortunately the US market bears a disproportionate percentage of the R&D cost recovery. 

Item A cost me $1,000,000 to develop. It costs $1 per unit to make. In the time before something replaces it for whatever reason, I can sell 100,000 copies of it in the world market at the mandated price of $2 each. So, $200,000 in sales, $100,000 in profit. I'm not even coming close to recovering my R&D. But, in the US market I can sell it for $20 a piece. I sell another 100,000 copies of it, making 1.9 million, covering my R&D and making $900,000. If I sold in the US for $2 a piece like the rest of the world I may never make any money. If I'm not going to make any money, I'm not going to do the R&D, item A never gets developed, no one gets hired to develop or produce it, the spin off jobs never happen, etc, etc. 

Over simplified but it's the gist of it. 



> They all come from the same place. And lets not forget the billions that WERE DONATED over the past decades to cure cancer and other sickness without ever finding ONE cure! Amazing how your capitalist, free market system that pulled you out of homelessness has managed to suck most of us dry and let us die! But you insist on going to a different country to seek health care? Yea it speaks volumes on your behalf.
> Hey I have a great idea for you. Why not become homeless again so you can have all of us on this forum pay for your surgery! *******!


Umm, is life expectancy going up or down? 

Funny you call someone an idiot when the majority of your arguement betrays astonishing ignorance.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

rommelrommel said:


> I don't think it's fair to say that it's ONLY a mental issue, but for a LOT of people it is. They are either mentally incompetant (I don't mean this in an unkind way, some people are just not mentally able to do things like pay bills) or just choose to live like that, or are just too ****ing lazy, or feel too entitled.



you two aren't making an important distinction. One of you is talking about the poor in the USA and the other is talking about the poor elsewhere.

In our capitalist free market economy, poverty can be a mental state and can be self-inflicted. In that circumstance, we're talking about someone who has the skills and the natural ability to make lots of money, but chooses not to for whatever reason. This happens, to be sure. There are also people who have comparatively lesser skills but through a combination of luck, timing, and determination, make it to the top. However these people are outliers, and they are not the norm - to say that poverty is a mental state most of the time is flat incorrect. Most often poverty in this country is due to circumstances beyond control. One great example is catastrophic illness. A significant amount of the poor in this country endure an illness that prevents them from working. There is only so much that disability covers - it is barely enough to scrape by with the very lowest of living standards. These folks are poor and can't do anything about it. 

The other guy is talking about poverty as a systemic problem in countries that don't have upward mobility for various reasons. Something like poverty in authoritarian countries, or poverty in countries like India or China where huge parts of their society still survive on subsistence farming. Don't be mistaken, there are absolutely parts of the world where there is no hope for the poor.


----------



## ryan s

truckerfte said:


> The surgery IS mainstream. Everywhere else, but here. BHO himself even admitted last week in a speech that over-regulation is killing both business and medical innovation in the US. I don't see him actually doing much about it, but ill accept that things change in baby steps. But like I told SFw, with no profit motive, there will be no innovation. So if most red tape is cut, you still are going to have bio-med companies reluctant to invest in developing new "stuff", because with this new system coming upon us, they will be having to try to cover their costs and make a profit under a price control environment.


Every president must be "pro-business"...that's the name of the centrist, neo-globalist game.

Re: Price control...oil was de-regulated heavily by Carter, finished off by Reagan. News today is Saudi Arabia reports a 300 billion barrel reserve deficit...where will prices go?

We live in the most deregulated period in the last 40 years. Where is the "innovation," if it hasn't come already? Limit government, cut taxes for the rich, right?


truckerfte said:


> Medical care is a consumer good. You do not have a right to it just because you exist. You have the right to acquire it, at your own expense. Yes, its a harsh stance. Its also fact. Doctors don't go to school for 12 years and set up a practice to be kind to hummanity. The bio-meds don't INVEST billions to bring a drug to market to feel good. They do it to get paid. It really is that simple. Sure there a few feel-good drs who want to heal the world. Most of them are in Africa somewhere.


That's not a "harsh" stance, that's an *unbelievable *stance.

Quite frankly, I don't understand how anyone can be like "well, he doesn't have health insurance or the money for this life-saving operation...wheel him outside, we're not paying for his stay." 

"You pay, you can live." *Unbelievable *


truckerfte said:


> What exactly do you think is going to happen when millions of people are suddenly put into a system that is short on resources as it is? The fact is OMGsocialism has failed every place it has been tried. With those elite-types running the show, they honestly believe that it will work this time because they are smarter, and america can do it better.


Hmm, ~50 million people either paying a fine via tax or entering into a system ill equipped would mean, to logical thinkers:

-Increase of revenue
-Increase in infrastructure 
-Increase in health-related work

Also, socialism has not failed everywhere it's been tried. Pure, Utopian thought, yes, has been corrupted by human desires. What do we recognize as "failure"? Cuba is still communist...so that's a success (with wanton disregard for rights or quality of living; but we never specified that was one of the criterion :laugh. The USSR had a ~70 year run (longer than the US's post WWII "capitalism" has been going on ). Venezuela is vehemently socialist. Germany is a social democracy and considered one of top first-world countries. 

And speaking of Germany, after WWII and looking back on The New Deal, the new German government wanted to base their new rules more heavily on the US model..._because it has more social fall backs and they wanted social programs like Medicare _:laugh: Wrap your head around that one.


rommelrommel said:


> Funny you call someone an idiot when the majority of your arguement betrays astonishing ignorance.


:laugh:


----------



## rommelrommel

Who's talking about the poor in the third world? From context I thought that it was pretty clear that we were talking about the USA mostly and other first world nations by extension.


----------



## truckerfte

Bd, I concede that I did in fact fail to make that distinction. I did say however in a later post that poverty does not exist in the US. There are people in those countries you spoke of that would kill(or die) to come live in American poverty. 

Speakers. I have ZERO sympathy for people who bought houses they couldn't afford and lost them. Someone signed their names to a contract. You can't blame the banks for someone's stupidity. Guess what? Once again, I have first-hand experience with this. I was in the first wave of foreclosures. I signed a bad deal on a house that I couldn't afford.(And this has nothing to do with my being homeless, that was more than 15years prior). How could I blame a bank for an insane deal that I signed onto? I got what I deserved, and so did all those other people. 

I learn from my mistakes. Today I live in a house that I own outright. And worked my ass off to buy it. I don't just pull things out of my ass, I speak from personal experience. 


And my decision to go to mexico is a PERFECT example of capitalism at work. Someone offered me a better product at a better price than anyone else. Don't forget, this conversation is about you whining about the cost of things in a free market society. Frankly, all this stuff about the medical system is more of a tangent. 

And it is easy to stick your fingers in your ears and sing la-la-la. And its even easier to launch personal attacks on someone than come up with a well-thought and reasoned response. 

Do you have any way to counter me with fact, rather than what you feel, or being a punk about it? I have managed to make points without attacking you, other than offending your "kum-by-yah, the world is a pretty place where people don't have to take responsibility for their own well-being and futures" attitude


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

rommelrommel said:


> I don't think it's fair to say that it's ONLY a mental issue, but for a LOT of people it is. They are either mentally incompetant (I don't mean this in an unkind way, some people are just not mentally able to do things like pay bills) or just choose to live like that, or are just too ****ing lazy, or feel too entitled.


Very good. Glad you recognize poverty isnt a mental state. Although poverty CAN be created due to a person being left behind and themselves being a retard, they wont beable to take care of them selves therefor becoming a victim of starvation and homelessness.. But what Tryckerft whatever it is is saying that any homeless person can fix there situation by simply getting a new job which by the way he also says is very easy to do. Dumbass... Maybe since he now lives in another country he doesnt see the situation here. The situation is that we are in a recession, almost a depression, but he sees that as a state of mind. Depress/recession usually equals to poverty. So basically what he is saying is that the great depression was fake. All those millions of people that got in the soup lines were just mentally challenged. All they had to do, from what trucker turd said, is they just needed a job.. Wow... This dude is a idiot... Drank too much boose while homeless


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

rommelrommel said:


> Losing your house doesn't automatically make you homeless.
> 
> 
> 
> See above.
> 
> 
> 
> You really don't understand a free market at all do you? Things do not have inherent value, the market decides what they are worth in proportion to other things.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah well, I guess they decided that those things are worthwhile?
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's not OK (imo), but high hospital costs can't be cured by price fixing. They're cured by reducing expenses.
> 
> 
> 
> Look into what the average doctor NETS a year in comparison to their education costs (both money spend on education and time out of the workforce.) They aren't that ridiculously overpaid... underpaid is more like it in some sectors.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know the difference between manufacturing costs and R&D costs? Most countries fix the price of drugs. The US doesn't. Unfortunately the US market bears a disproportionate percentage of the R&D cost recovery.
> 
> Item A cost me $1,000,000 to develop. It costs $1 per unit to make. In the time before something replaces it for whatever reason, I can sell 100,000 copies of it in the world market at the mandated price of $2 each. So, $200,000 in sales, $100,000 in profit. I'm not even coming close to recovering my R&D. But, in the US market I can sell it for $20 a piece. I sell another 100,000 copies of it, making 1.9 million, covering my R&D and making $900,000. If I sold in the US for $2 a piece like the rest of the world I may never make any money. If I'm not going to make any money, I'm not going to do the R&D, item A never gets developed, no one gets hired to develop or produce it, the spin off jobs never happen, etc, etc.
> 
> Over simplified but it's the gist of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Umm, is life expectancy going up or down?
> 
> Funny you call someone an idiot when the majority of your arguement betrays astonishing ignorance.


Betrays or portrays? Cause an ignorant person usually cant use proper words such as yourself..
Yawn... These arguements are lame. You and some of the others see what the system lets you see. You dont see whats really goin on. The reality is that Exxon has made over 35Billion dollars PROFIT last year. Thats just one gas company. So how much supply and demand you think is required to lower the prices? Cause $3 a gallon is about $2 to much. Actually, there are countries where they pay .25 a gallon! They jack up the price over here cause they know we HAVE TO PAY or we walk! Thats your free market full throttle. Proud? Does it make you all warm inside that you live in a free market society where almost anybody can screw you over at anytime by creating monopolies and jacking up prices to ridiculous levels? All that free market system does for us is it makes delivery services have to jack up there price. That also makes you and me struggle to pay for everything. I heard all these same responses over and over from so many people when having discussion over coffee and lunch. Its tiresome to hear such old school, blocked, irrational ways of thinking when you have google to learn more about the subject rather than just say things you heard from someone else.


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

truckerfte said:


> Speakers. I have ZERO sympathy for people who bought houses they couldn't afford and lost them. Someone signed their names to a contract. You can't blame the banks for someone's stupidity. Guess what? Once again, I have first-hand experience with this. I was in the first wave of foreclosures. I signed a bad deal on a house that I couldn't afford



 LOL so you have no sympathy for yourself AND you even said you're a dumbass all in that one small paragraph!.. Bravo... Lets move on.. You are a buffoon


----------



## truckerfte

Ryan...thank you for making your points in a reasonable thought out manner. When I get to a PC I will be able to better respond to them point-by-point. 

Speakers, instead of diverting your attention to the oilfield companies, stick with the bio-meds. I will get to big oil later, after all, its the industry I happen to work in, so I have a ****-load to say there. No it was pretty well laid out for you in simple terms how the drug industry works. So please explain to us how that simple little model is wrong. You have been telling us it is, now show us. What you feel, or how you think it should be, does not matter here, fact does. 

It seems to me you are just resentful of people who have more than you do. That's at least twice now you have slammed people or businesses who have EARNED their money.(Three if you count me)


----------



## truckerfte

Speakers4Weapons said:


> LOL so you have no sympathy for yourself AND you even said you're a dumbass all in that one small paragraph!.. Bravo... Lets move on.. You are a buffoon


Not really a dumbass, just did a dumbass thing. Parrt of being a grown man is being able to admit to mistakes, correcting them, and moving on. I'm far from perfect. And have no problems saying so. Hmm...it seems you forgot to quote the next paragraph on that one. You know, there one that says where I have recovered, and put myself in a position where it never happens again. 


Really, do you actually have any points to make, or are you just perfectly content talking **** and calling names? Look at ryan's last post, and learn something. We have opposing points of view, and will be discussing them in an adult manner. Can you do the same? In some cirecles, your degeneration into name calling amounts to a concession.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

trucker, the problem with many of the foreclosures that people were griping about is the predatory nature of the lending that took place, and the lack of accountability displayed by those who perpetrated the crimes. Bankers were acting like grubby, shady salesmen, misrepresenting the risk to their customers and sometimes outright lying about the nature of the contract the customer was signing. We have zero financial education in our public education system, so our public is almost universally ignorant about finance. We can't have every citizen know everything about finance; it's not possible nor is it even desirable. They trusted bankers to look out for their best interest, however the bankers were cynical opportunists, and they sold them the brooklyn bridge. They basically took advantage of the ignorance and trust of the masses and signed up every tom "dick" and harry for a loan that they *knew* the person couldn't afford. They didn't care because once this happened they just sold the mortgages and banks chopped them up into debt backed securities. They were absolved of the risk. There was no accountability. Everybody was making money and getting laid, and it ballooned out of control because nobody was paying the piper.

These mortgage backed securities were insured, and AAA rated. Unfortunately these guys **** the bed, because they were clearly not AAA quality. The risk was way out of control, everyone was over-leveraged, and when everything started tumbling down, it turned out that the burden was shouldered by the public. It was absurd and outrageously unethical. Hopefully you don't think that it was the proper use of credit markets (because it's not). There is literally nobody who thinks that it was *supposed* to work that way. Not even the most conservative guys think it's desirable to privatize reward and socialize risk. Not even a fascist would say that. What happened was exploitation, plain and simple.

Just because our system is the best in the world (which it certainly is) doesn't mean that it's actually good. Remember my analogy? We're just the best cancer cell in the heap. Don't forget that we're just a cancer.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

oh and just to add - right now we are experiencing an abuse of public dollars (albeit on a much smaller scale) by universities that are recruiting people to sign up for federal college grants. They recruit people who have no desire to go to college, and they pay them a couple hundred bucks in order to get them to procure federal funding so that the university gets paid $5k+ 

Let me just outline this again. Universities (phoenix is among many schools accused) are paying homeless people hundreds of dollars each to fill out paperwork and enroll in a couple classes that they will never attend so that the university receives federal money. Unethical behavior where business is milking the taxpayers. Happens all the time.


edit: I'm not really sure how that's relevant, it just popped into my head. I'll leave it here because maybe somebody will have something to add.


----------



## truckerfte

Those are some good points. Unfortunately, like ryan, I just can't effectively give a good response untill I can get to a desktop. I want to be able to link credible sources, least our young outspoken friend here thinks I'm just pulling things out of my ass. 


But as bad as the banks were(I am in no way defending them) c'mon. That 50k a year guy in middle management knew damn well he couldn't swing a 350k mortgage. 

And don't forget, our benevolent gov't does not exactly have clean hands in this. The banks did have a mandate to follow.


----------



## Wheres The Butta

truckerfte said:


> Those are some good points. Unfortunately, like ryan, I just can't effectively give a good response untill I can get to a desktop. I want to be able to link credible sources, least our young outspoken friend here thinks I'm just pulling things out of my ass.
> 
> 
> But as bad as the banks were(I am in no way defending them) c'mon. That 50k a year guy in middle management knew damn well he couldn't swing a 350k mortgage.
> 
> And don't forget, our benevolent gov't does not exactly have clean hands in this. The banks did have a mandate to follow.


i'll give you that. the responsibility is shared, and lots of it falls on the individuals who knew better but behaved poorly anyway. And yeah I'm aware that there were *ahem* rules in place to direct the lending activity of the banks... The government fails too. So there's enough fail to go around lol... :laugh:


----------



## Patriot_tech

I can't believe some of the comments I've read in this thread. 

At the end of the day.......

One must take personal responsibility for himself and his family. If you want something, go work to get it. If you think the price is too high, don't buy it. You are owed nothing and should not expect anything from anyone, especially the government. Let's face it, life is not fair and attempts to make it that way end up destroying all of us.

The government should not exist to make your life as easy as possible. It should however, provide basic services and defense to allow you to pursue YOUR happiness. YOUR happiness does not mean anyone else has to contribute to it. It means you work your butt off to get where you want to be.

I quit my job with a 2 month old and a 4 year old to start a business. We saved as much as we could for the 2 years prior to that to have money in the bank to live on until 'hopefully' the business took off. Lucky for us it did. We still lived very tight for a year or two after that. The point is I have worked and sacrificed for EVERYTHING I have, as have many others on this forum and in this nation for that matter. 

Trucker, I could not agree with you more....
Speakers, use the enter key for pete's sake!


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

To Trucker and Patriot Tech: First let me say that to go looking for news clippings and links to prove what Ive been saying is a waste of my time. If you cant follow along like most people, on the recent news and understand simple things like Ponzy scams and Bankruptcy Bailouts, well, you are just stupid! So Im not gonna sit here and paste links to explain why our system is corrupt and broken. If you 2 like the way things are great! Make sure that when your kids grow up they have the same "LUCK" as you did Patriot. Thats about what you need these days to make it. Kids are spending years in college and when they get out they realize the jobs arent there. Trucker said he works in the oil field. Well to be honest the oil field operates on about 80% ********. They are mostly uneducated and desperate for money. The Oil field hires people with no license drivers due to drinking and driving. Convicted Felons. You get the picture Mr Homelses dont you? When the Oil field hires homeless and desperate people they pay them low wages but send them on jobs that pay 18 to 24hours a day and they will be required to spend the majority of there life on some nightmare of a oil rig. These oil workers will make 75 to 100K a year due to long hours but will pay 45% taxes! Are you happy about that? While Exxon makes there 30billion in profit you will be in another country hoping you get cured of whatever sickness you acquired in this so called lovely country you praise about. Ironic to me! DO I need to post links so I can prove the irony? No. Ive worked in the oil biz as well. Ive had many jobs. The system knows no race, color or gender. It just requires you to WORK! Not to work for you, not for your kids. but for them! Them meaning the ones who run the system! The fact that you make money is just an incentive to keep you going to work NOT to pay for your health or your kids college. They pay you to make sure you are able to make it back to work. They dont care about your luxuries. If you cant see that then your a sheep! And when you get old you realize the insurance companies dont want to help you cause it cost them money, so they pay for what they think is appropriate rather than to save you or your kids life. But you 2 say this system is fine as long as you WORK your ass off? WTH kinda world do you live in? wake up! Here we have a oil field worker having to go to another country to have proper health care and a parent who has to live on savings in HOPES of making a new busniness and you 2 want to praise about those situations by promoting the same system that put you in such a negative position? I tell you, you 2 are the PRIME examples of why the country is in a perpetual toilet flush. Cause you give in and accept the grim situation the system put in , then you promote it to others like its just great. As long as we act like you 2 right? LOL Bunch of idiots!! You are sheep. You are blinded and you are followers of THE GREAT LIE
Feel free to post links blah blah.. who cares.... Good luck on that surgery. Im not payin for it. You sure as hell wouldnt wanna pay for mine....


----------



## JAX

paragraphs would be nice.


----------



## daudioman

If this digressing conversation that a started from eBay seller prices to now the state of our country/world aims to really be constructive...lets try to keep our comments more focused on the topic and less on the personal stuff. After all its always easier to puff out your chest and name call on the internet than in person...if your the least bit wondering if this applies to you well.............. 

I'll start by quoting this:

_ * The Yale Book of Quotations by Fred R. Shapiro records: “‘Tis impossible to be sure of any thing but Death and Taxes,” from Christopher Bullock, The Cobler of Preston (1716) * _

Lets try to remember that their has to be some merit to each sides viewpoint to find a solution that address everyone's concerns...which are valid BTW. To what degree that solution has teeth though may vary...

For example: 

While I admire truckerfte's resourcefulness to solve his medical situation it is a shame that leaving the country has to be an option...this is the same country that you (we all including me) love so much. This free market may be the best option but it obviously needs improvement. I'm for self reliance/improvement as well but everyone (again degree varying) at some point needs help...



Also...



Speakers4Weapons said:


> WTH kinda world do you live in? wake up!
> 
> ... You are blinded and you are followers of THE GREAT LIE...


I have to ask you what this means? I would get into more details with you but other members have consistently asked you to break it down for all of us? I mean if you don't believe in "hard work"(...their words not mine) to meet your goals (be it financial or whatever) then what is the solution; and for that matter what is the problem... EXACTLY????????


do we hold corporations hostage...via spending dollars?
Do we start our own businesses (already espoused by another member)
Do we elect politicians that will fix the problem (and what politicians will do exactly that?)

(no more deflection or saying no one gets it or does not understand...make us understand your viewpoint....otherwise your viewpoint have less creditability). In any relationship personal, professional, spiritual, problems and solutions go hand in hand. But without offering solutions, then what are your views worth...seriously? 

Of course if I missed the solution entry please advise...! Please remember I'm not here to antagonize but really understand what you would like to see happen with all these different discussions in this thread...in detail...


----------



## truckerfte

wow. just wow. once again, you just cant make a point, so you digress to insults. 

first off, i don't HAVE to leave the country to get my healthcare. I chose to. The reasons i have stated already. First, yea its cheaper. Im not having to pay for people who would rather not EARN their healthcare. Second, im not paying a premium to cover an American DR's malpractice insurance. Its a crying shame that an educated person has to cover his ass because people love to play the litigation lottery. The simple fact is, i net more than my family practice Dr does. Third, the FDA is about 10 years behind the rest of the developed world in medical tech. My procedure just isnt available here, at any price. Fourth, my surgeon has more experience than 90% of anyone in the US.


You are right. Oilfield hands make a lot of money. Im on the high side of what you think we make. But, not everyone in the patch is out tripping pipe at 3am in the middle of winter. Some of us(like me) get to drive around, doing about an honest 3 hours of labor a shift. i might put in 10-12 hours a shift. Sure, its not 9-5, but i earn a lil more than your average bank teller. Yeah, there are a lot of ******** in the business. However, i don't see them crying that $3 a gallon for gas is too expensive. Seems these ******** have figured out what you have not...how to earn a living. Did i have to do a lot of ass-busting to get to this point? yes. its worth it when i don't have to worry about an extra dollar of gallon for gas cutting into my lifestyle..c'mon, for most people, thats about $10 a week. If you are cutting it that close, you have failed in life somewhere. 

Taxes suck. I employ someone to minimize that for me.I dont pay anywhere near 45%. But until something like the fair tax is put in place, it is what it is. You jump up and down screaming about how much money big oil makes. I don't see you saying much about how much THEY pay in taxes. iirc, exxon-mobil put about 8 billion in the us treasury's coffers last year. Now, if this evil corp didn't make this kind of profit, where exactly is the money gonna come from for the govt to pay for all the things you feel you are entitled to? The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of rich people to steal from. 

Back to the people in the oil patch. I think it would be a lot of fun to watch ya walk into a bar in pampa on a friday night and insult them like that. You won't make it out. Are they a rough group of people? yes. are they the knuckle dragging Neanderthals you claim them to be? No. Simple fact is, no one with a record like you describe is getting a decent paying job around here. For ****s sake, do you have any idea the hoops you have to jump through to get a HAZ-Mat endorsement? trust me, no one with a criminal background is working in MY part of the patch.

I dont work for some companies profit. I work for MY rational self-interest. I want my employer to make billlions of dollars a year. It insures that they can pay what i demand for my services. I have never worked for a broke man. 


what kind of system do i live in? a flawed one for sure. but one that allows a former homeless man to WORK his ass off, earn a nearly 6-figure paycheck, be able to do things like travel internationally to write a check for things he needs/wants.

i shudder to think what my life would look like if the world was ran as you think it should be. I promise i wouldnt be where i am now . 

im sorry you have an aversion to working, im sorry you don't understand the concept of sacrificing for long-term goals. The difference between you, myself, and patriot tech is this: 5 years from now, you will be exactly where you are now. PT and i will be signing the front side of payroll checks. 


......perhaps you should go spend some time under the dame bridge i did....maybe you will learn something. 

You seem to think you are a pretty bright guy. Go buy a book by AYN RAND called Atlas Shrugged. I know, its a little long, and there arent any pictures. But itll show ya what happens when the world is ran under your ideals. Problem is, there ain't gonna be a John Gault to save our asses. And if that extra dollar for gas is killing ya, im sure your local library has a copy for ya.


"I swear on my life, and my love of it, that i will not live for the sake of another man. Nor will i ask another man to live for the sake of mine." -Ayn Rand


----------



## Wheres The Butta

just FYI, capitalism is incredibly shortsighted and does a poor job of factoring in real cost of things. It only looks at the cost of what people are willing to pay - not the cost of what impact it has on the whole of society and the world at large, plus the irreversible effects to the land and ecosystems they occupy. If oil companies had to pay for the true cost of their activity, they would be out of business. The only reason they are allowed to operate the way they currently do is because we have no choice - we *NEED* their products in order to sustain our daily activity. Oil is society's heroin.

full disclosure - I am invested in oil. I own shares of both oil companies and USO as well.


----------



## truckerfte

Thank you for your full disclosure. Im not gonna take advantage of it. 

There ARE environmental concerns with all production. I won't hide from that. We all know about things like the Valdese, and Deep Horizon. Unfortunately, these things are the face. Of the oil industry. People don't hear about the other 15000 or so other holes drilled offshore that don't cause problems. They see a land rig in operation. They don't seem to notice the land restored to its natural state. They don't seem to notice the wind generator built next to it. They don't seem to notice that the foot prints of both these things are small enough than farming and ranching activities continue around them with no impact. 

Frankly, a lot of drilling could be greatly curtailed. For years people have talked about the possibilities of things like coal diesel and shale oil. The epa seems perfectly content to shut down one coal mine after another. Haliburton owns the process to convert shale oil pretty cheaply. But. Regulations are stopping this from happening.

I don't think people should run roughshod over mother earth. But I also don't think that progress should be halted by govt either. There are alternatives to a lot of hydrocarbon use. But I bet 90% of people would co into convulsions if you try to build a reactor near their city. 

Everyone wants their cake, and wants to eat it too. Find me a viable replacement for hydrocarbons, and ill use it. Find me a viable alternative to capitalism that does not interfere with my inherent inalienable rights to life, liberty, and property ownership, and ill look at it too. I don't think you are going to find either.


----------



## Patriot_tech

Speakers-

I can guarantee you that my kids will (and most likely already are) more capable of being self sufficient, productive members of society than you can ever dream of. 
You are bound by shackles of your beliefs, which will keep you down as long as you allow them to. Who knows better whats best for you....than YOU.

We work to improve the lives of ourselves and our families. Yes, many have to work for others, that's life. Have you been on the gov't dole so long that you don't understand that? I may have missed it earlier in this thread, but do we know what you do? How have you made your lot in life other than bitching about things not being easy enough for you.

This country has accomplished more in its time than any other in history and capitalism is the reason. You cannot deny that. In my opinion, we are now living and seeing the failure of liberalism (progressive) that started 100 years ago. As I said before, life has no guarantees and government obviously cannot provide any either. The more they try to make it fair for everyone, the less fair it actually is.

I urge you to take pride in YOURSELF and stop waiting for someone else to make your life better. Be your own man and make YOUR decisions. If you think a price is too high, don't buy. If you think you don't make enough money, figure out a way to make more. 

Or as Judge Smales said in Caddyshack "The world needs ditchdiggers too."

So which one are you.....Ditchdigger or the guy that the ditchdigger works for? You know which one I am.


----------



## JAX

ryan s said:


> Hmm, ~50 million people either paying a fine via tax or entering into a system ill equipped would mean, to logical thinkers:
> 
> -Increase of revenue
> -Increase in infrastructure
> -Increase in health-related work
> 
> Also, socialism has not failed everywhere it's been tried. Pure, Utopian thought, yes, has been corrupted by human desires. What do we recognize as "failure"? Cuba is still communist...so that's a success (with wanton disregard for rights or quality of living; but we never specified that was one of the criterion :laugh. The USSR had a ~70 year run (longer than the US's post WWII "capitalism" has been going on ). Venezuela is vehemently socialist. Germany is a social democracy and considered one of top first-world countries.
> 
> And speaking of Germany, after WWII and looking back on The New Deal, the new German government wanted to base their new rules more heavily on the US model..._because it has more social fall backs and they wanted social programs like Medicare _:laugh: Wrap your head around that one.
> 
> :laugh:



you make that assumption based on a healthy economy and things that are not garanteed.

How many people do you actually know in the medical field now ? How many have you talked to about how the changes or the results of the upcoming changes have told you what it has done to them or their practices?

yes. logically there would be an increase of money if 50 million people suddenly had to pay a fine. But there has to be an economy for any of this to work and the numbers on all this are based on situations that are not certain.

increase in work. decrease in quality of care more like it. Its already crap at the doctor unless you have a good doctor.

my wife sees more patients on a saturday or sunday than some other doctors see any day of the week. my wife is not a doctor. she is a nurse but nurses do much more than people think.


I dont know why people talk about this healthcare plan here in the US when its plain to see its all about more money in the governments hands.

I see where you logic takes you but we are talking about the US government. Not Cuba or any other place. 

out governments answer to everything is to tax the crap out of everything so they can spend it all on things that keep them in power.

IRS wants to hire 80 people to run around taxing people this year for tanning beds . these asshats make $150K to tax tanning bed owners. just so they can take that and spend it. 

you really think the money they collect now will actually be there in 3 yrs when the parts in the plan actually take effect? you naive if you think that.

every program we have is damn near broke busted or bankrupt.


----------



## ryan s

So much to tackle, not enough time :laugh: Ayn Rand...ugh.

But since I was quoted...



JAX said:


> you make that assumption based on a healthy economy and things that are not garanteed.
> 
> How many people do you actually know in the medical field now ? How many have you talked to about how the changes or the results of the upcoming changes have told you what it has done to them or their practices?
> 
> yes. logically there would be an increase of money if 50 million people suddenly had to pay a fine. But there has to be an economy for any of this to work and the numbers on all this are based on situations that are not certain.
> 
> increase in work. decrease in quality of care more like it. Its already crap at the doctor unless you have a good doctor.
> 
> my wife sees more patients on a saturday or sunday than some other doctors see any day of the week. my wife is not a doctor. she is a nurse but nurses do much more than people think.
> 
> 
> I dont know why people talk about this healthcare plan here in the US when its plain to see its all about more money in the governments hands.
> 
> I see where you logic takes you but we are talking about the US government. Not Cuba or any other place.
> 
> out governments answer to everything is to tax the crap out of everything so they can spend it all on things that keep them in power.
> 
> IRS wants to hire 80 people to run around taxing people this year for tanning beds . these asshats make $150K to tax tanning bed owners. just so they can take that and spend it.
> 
> you really think the money they collect now will actually be there in 3 yrs when the parts in the plan actually take effect? you naive if you think that.
> 
> every program we have is damn near broke busted or bankrupt.


When *is *the economy "guaranteed"? I see we've never had a recession since 1929--err, wait...we have a recession every 10 years or so. What has been definitively proven over the years, however, is that cutting revenue while preaching spending cuts (but actually spending more) doesn't work. Yep, Reagan is especially in that category. 

If we're going by "I talked to someone in the industry," who do you know in the IRS? How many people in the federal government do you know? See where I'm going with that?  (That's ignoring that the "lowest" people in an industry have the least influence on decision-making...except for *ahem* unions and their collective bargaining.)

I don't understand why "unhealthy" things shouldn't be taxed, though. You can say "this is America! We should be able to smoke and drink ourselves to death if we want, with a Big Mac in both hands!" Well, that's cool...except people don't die right away. Guess who pays for people's care if they get melanoma from a tanning bed...liver disease from drinking...lung cancer from smoking...and can't pay for their own care? We do! *You do*! That should piss you off more than taxes on **** you don't even utilize, like tanning beds.

Oh yeah, you'll have to provide proof that tax collectors make $150k a year collecting taxes on tanning bed owners..._and spend the money on themselves_. As bd5034 above noted, the money "isn't there" in a few years because capitalism is too short-sighted. Legislate for one year, put off anything for the next administration if possible, borrow from one program to fund another.

Speaking of funding programs we don't have money for: I notice conservatives won't touch the defense budget (besides the Pentagon's spending because they're part of the "dadgum gubmit, taxin n spendin") to balance our current fiscal issues, nor are they after the president to end the wars anymore. What's up with that?  Cut cut cut...but don't touch that 25% for defense.


----------



## JAX

I didnt say economy guaranteed. I said other things that were not gauranteed. 

there is no such thing. When I said that I am referring to the way the administration is setting up budgets and forecasts on the deficit based on taxes and other things that just assume will be there to take from US.

They left the 2008 tax rates alone due to the Republicans screaming , they didnt raise anything or lower anything for the most part . it wasnt a tax cut for anyone in reality cause nothing changed.

but the dems screamed it was a tax cut for rich because what it really was for them was a decrease in the amount of tax revenue that they were counting on when they changed the law and increased it.

it never happened so nothing changed at all but still it was/is called a tax cut .

it also wasnt for the rich. it was for just about every person who works. 

same thing with this new budget. I dont undestand how they can say it is going to cut the deficit by (insert amount) over 10yrs when they are not going to stop spending increases and they do not know how much revenue they are going to have. they are basing what they are doing on taxes they are going to get from people and business. 

when you do a budget for anything else its based on something you know. not what you hope to get. 



whats with the "conservatives wont touch the defense spending" comment? 

I am all for pulling out of all these dang wars. if we did that then we could have a defense of our country and still cut the budget. 

the 150K figure was from the 81 people they had to hire newly to take on this tax for tanning beds and divided by the amount they said it was going to cost. while it may not be all towards salary so I may be off there. just doing simple math on it. 

when I said spending the money on themselves I was really meaning that they were going to collect it for the government and the government was going to spend it on whatever they wanted and not towards healthcare alone or at all. its revenue from taxes. 

it goes wherever they want on whatever they want. 


what is it you wish to happen with this country exactly ? 

you live in Wisconsin. so does my Aunt and Uncle. and your state is broke. as in no money. many states are also in the same boat. 

when there is no money how is it we are spending it and borrowing it from whoever want to own a part of the USA? 

as for unions. cant stand them. 

there are millions of people right now that could do any Union job for less money and be thankful. 

I hope every one of them teachers get fired but I am sure they cant. or wont. 

I wish I had to only work 8 months a year and get $89K or more a year. and 75% of my salary when I retired for life. all off the backs of someone else.

wait , no I dont. cause I am not a greedy self centered prick.

I guess if they dont agree with the governor then he will just have to fire 5000 fools and they will not have squat. 

whats the union going to do for them? 

unions are nothing but organized thugs


----------



## ryan s

JAX said:


> I didnt say economy guaranteed. I said other things that were not gauranteed.
> 
> there is no such thing. When I said that I am referring to the way the administration is setting up budgets and forecasts on the deficit based on taxes and other things that just assume will be there to take from US.
> 
> They left the 2008 tax rates alone due to the Republicans screaming , they didnt raise anything or lower anything for the most part . it wasnt a tax cut for anyone in reality cause nothing changed.
> 
> but the dems screamed it was a tax cut for rich because what it really was for them was a decrease in the amount of tax revenue that they were counting on when they changed the law and increased it.
> 
> it never happened so nothing changed at all but still it was/is called a tax cut .


It was a _continuation _of a tax cut...and the top tax rate is actually lower now than under Reagan. 


JAX said:


> it also wasnt for the rich. it was for just about every person who works.


Absolutely false. 



JAX said:


> same thing with this new budget. I dont undestand how they can say it is going to cut the deficit by (insert amount) over 10yrs when they are not going to stop spending increases and they do not know how much revenue they are going to have. they are basing what they are doing on taxes they are going to get from people and business.
> 
> when you do a budget for anything else its based on something you know. not what you hope to get.


Business as usual. The 2012 budget is no different than any other.




JAX said:


> whats with the "conservatives wont touch the defense spending" comment?
> 
> I am all for pulling out of all these dang wars. if we did that then we could have a defense of our country and still cut the budget.


Republicans are all for cutting social security, Medicare/Medicaid...which are the other biggest expenses the government has, next to defense. So they'll want to cut benefits from those programs but won't touch defense...ever.

"Everything is on the table." Ever heard a law maker say that? Except spending on defense...that's *never *"on the table."


JAX said:


> the 150K figure was from the 81 people they had to hire newly to take on this tax for tanning beds and divided by the amount they said it was going to cost. while it may not be all towards salary so I may be off there. just doing simple math on it.
> 
> when I said spending the money on themselves I was really meaning that they were going to collect it for the government and the government was going to spend it on whatever they wanted and not towards healthcare alone or at all. its revenue from taxes.
> 
> it goes wherever they want on whatever they want.


Yeah, when X dollars are set aside for Y program, all the money doesn't go straight to salaries of the people working in them.

Taxes *are *for the government to spend :laugh: They don't have _carte blanche_ power to spend it willy-nilly...there's things called "laws" in the way of that.



JAX said:


> what is it you wish to happen with this country exactly ?
> 
> you live in Wisconsin. so does my Aunt and Uncle. and your state is broke. as in no money. many states are also in the same boat.
> 
> when there is no money how is it we are spending it and borrowing it from whoever want to own a part of the USA?


Bollocks.

Walker just recently cut $150M in taxes for the wealthy, but is trying to make back $130M by eliminating collective bargaining for public workers.

If we're soooooooooo broke, how can the governor go and cut taxes on the rich? 

Edit: Did this on PentaxForums too...should be millions, not billions. Total deficit in the $3*B* range.


JAX said:


> as for unions. cant stand them.
> 
> there are millions of people right now that could do any Union job for less money and be thankful.
> 
> I hope every one of them teachers get fired but I am sure they cant. or wont.
> 
> I wish I had to only work 8 months a year and get $89K or more a year. and 75% of my salary when I retired for life. all off the backs of someone else.
> 
> wait , no I dont. cause I am not a greedy self centered prick.
> 
> I guess if they dont agree with the governor then he will just have to fire 5000 fools and they will not have squat.
> 
> whats the union going to do for them?
> 
> unions are nothing but organized thugs


And this is why I will never agree with any facet of conservatism. *This *is "the race to the bottom" people are always railing against. *This *is the point of unions.

The fact that you don't know that teachers work through the summer (yes, they don't have a 3-month-straight vacation) shows your understanding of the matter. And around here, $89k is the absolute top salary for a 30 year+ tenured educator who is probably in a high administration position. If you think *all *teachers make that much, even after a few years in the district... :laugh:

I'd love to see what happens if you ever get downsized for someone fresh out of college. I assume there will be a thread blaming Obama/Democrats? If it's fair for your neighbors to be downsized from a union, it wouldn't be so bad for you either, right? Or is it a one-way street?

If Walker fires every union person, including firemen and police, there will not be people lined up to take their place. Believe it. Things will become "less than peaceful" if that occurs.


----------



## JAX

not even going to sit here and argue with some 26yr old who thinks he knows it all and has done it all and has all the answers to all the questions. 

since you feel you do then get to work and make it right. 

not even going to do it. even though I could ask you some things right now. 

not going to do it. going to go outside and play with my son. 

I got better things to do than to sit here and argue with anyone who has already point blank admitted he will never agree with anything unless it is the same as what he believes.


I got news for you there bro. you dont know **** about me so you cant claim to know what I might think is fair or not. or what I have been through or not.

its life. sometime we just got to deal with it.


----------



## ryan s

You don't agree with liberalism...yet you'll have a conversation with one.

I just came out and said the obvious...so? You hadn't figured out my position from my first posts in this thread? Jehovah's Witnesses will come and talk with devout Christians. Will either convert the other? Probably not. Does that stop either from talking about the benefits of their side?

I'll just be "living" inside while it sleets (or something?) outside, watching Purdue upset OSU


----------



## truckerfte

Im gonna try a different tack here. Honestly, a lot of this political discussion is prolly going to be over the op's head. And im not trying to be mean at all when i say that. 

I have given a personal example as to what i have done in my own life. The kid just does not get it. He likely never will. There is a pretty firm consensus that the system, is pretty ****ed. In spite of that people would still kill(or die) to get here. Any reference i have made about politics was merely to point out things that i personally have learned, and how i worked around them to provide myself a nice life. I have wasted a lot of electrons doing so.

So....the kid mentioned in particular that the higher costs of living might keep one from purchasing a wanted luxury. In this case an amp.So im going to spoon feed him on how I an building not one, but two systems. 

System one

Alpine CD105, with sirius tuner and full imprint kit
CDT 2 inch "tweets"
Anarchy mids
Undetermined subs 
MTX thunder 2300, 2160, 280(x2)

System 2.

Undetermined HU
MS-8
H-audio AR duo
AE IB15's
Massive Nano nx4, N3

I dont think that is too shabby of a list.

My "cash" outlay so far? about $300

I have used the evil capitalist to do this.

Ebay, Craigslist, and the forums are my friends here.

I started with a couple of hundred bucks on Ebay. Bought some older amps on the cheap. Tested them, shined them up. and listed them on CL for about $30 or so mark-up. Rolled that money into more amps, rinse, repeat. Eventually I had a growing inventory, and cashflow. No, i didn't make a killing on these items, what i did is make a little money on a lot of them. Eventually the equipment got better, and the forums came into play. Its all about the market. A CL buyer IS NOT interested in paying 150 for a little red amp that has 25x2 on it. I have learned the hard way that educating these buyers just isn't gonna work. BUT, some guy who's cousin gave him a pile of little red amps from the garage is a great seller. I managed to snag a very clean 225/250HCCA combo for $50 bucks. You dont make money on the sell, you make it on the buy. I missed an original Human Reign 4-channel for $150, by an hour. There are some smoking deals to be had, if you take the time to look. A new in box set of MB Quart separates misplaced on ebay were picked up for $30, and sold for $150 the day after the package came in the mail. The DSC amps I picked up here for $300 on the pair sold for $400 within 3 hours of listing on CL. Most deals don't go like that. typically, you can pick up a nice MTX amp for 30-50 shipped. They bring 70-90 all day long. Eventually, my poor little saturn became a test-bed/demo car. Now i sell entire packages. The next one up is a pair of smallish MTX amps(mtx, and RF are big sellers for me), a 12 in a prefab box, and prolly the MBQ RCE-216 in the car now. My cost on this stuff? about 190. it will bring me 350-400. I make a profit, and the buyer gets a better deal than he would have at the local bix-box store. And i always throw in a little "added value" .A quy over on CACO was kind enough to chop and screw about 1500 rap songs, and set them up to download for free. So a couple of bucks worth of blank discs, and you have a customer who is happy as a pig in ****, and sends his buddies to ya. Its not my taste in music or systems, but it sells. Found a place on ebay selling nice prefab sub-boxes. People were a little put off by the $90 shipping fee, so no bidders. I won all 14 from between .99 and 2.50. Spent $50 in gas to go pick them up in dallas. Three sold at 40, and i could chop the rest up for firewood for all i care, i made a profit. Im gonna go grab a bunch of those RF subs selling for 79 a pair shipped, load em up in the boxes, and ill get 150-180 per all day long. 

Last weekend i sold about 14 amps, And did very well. 

Its not all about audio though. Earlier this week, i gave a guy 150 for a clean saturn, with a blown engine. $600 for a used motor, $200 to have the guy down the street drop it in for me. $150 or so worth of inventory, and i have an $1100 investment, that will bring me 28-3000. 

A few months ago i saw a CL ad for a $300 olds 98. Had some time to kill, so i checked it out. Jumped it off, Drove it around the block, and handed over the cash. Grabbed a $49 battery on my way home, a couple of used tires for $50, and an ebay heater core for $29. $20 in quarters at the spray-n-wash and I had it shining like a diamond in a goats ass. Drove it a month, and put a for sale sign on it. Sold the next day for 1200. More amps bought, more money made. 

So i have bought some nice equipment for myself, and generated an income stream on the side. All from $200 worth of Ebay amps. 

Im not bragging. Im just showing how it is VERY possible to start small, and grow big. It didn't happen overnight. There were mistakes made along the way(i have a pile of broken amps from scammers to prove it).But i did it. You can too. There is no secret to what i have done, just a little planning, thinking, and work. I cleared a few hundred extra bucks last weekend. A lot of it generated from the evil sellers on ebay that you started this thread to trash.


----------



## JAX

I will have a conversation with anyone. But there is no point if you admit you don't belive I any conservative idea. Even I won't say something like that cause I don't know it all. There may be something I might agree upon at some point. But I will never agree its ok to steal from one to give to another if the other is able to do for themselves. Been working longer than you have been breathing air. Changed jobs more times than I care to count over something not fair. Its life. Life aint fair. Liberals scream about equality but union people get favorable reatment over private workers. But that's ok cause liberals and unions are in bed together. Union people keep liberals in power in turn liberals make deals that the rest of us pay for. Its easy to spend someone elses dime. If that doesn't bother you then you must have too much money or no responsibilty or bills. If neither applies yet you still feel its ok to give away everyone elses money then by all means you and all liberals start giving up Your money. Yours. I will be glad to take a donation from a liberal if its money they had to work for and not money they extorted from someone else. That is one area I will almost never agree on with a liberal on is money. Social security is toast. I have given in for 28yrs. Will not get a dime of it. ****ed over. Stupid politicians ****ed that up. Thx. You seem to think I will automatically go with any conservative idea and against any liberal one. I would never cut myself out of options without hearing them but problem is I keep hearing the same crap. I need to see where it worked and didn't bankrupt a town, state or country.


----------



## JAX

Bravo. You prooved the difference between a lot (not all) liberals and conservatives. You worked for it instead of witing for it to appear by itself. I am full time trying to raise my kid while working full time. When he is a little older I hope I can go back to school to advance myself. Right now I must tend to kid as wife already has 2 jobs. But if I have to I will. Tax cuts for rich? Not just apply to rich. Anyone who thinks that needs to explain that or stop repeating that. The gwb tax breaks put money in my pocket plain and simple. Take it away exactly opposite. People wouldn't keep getting taxes increased if local, state and federal governments would stop increase their expendatures. The only reason it happens is because they feel they can no matter what. Current admin follows no laws unless they choose to. They have made up more bs than anyone in years, possibly ever. Czars? For example. In ussr maybe not usa.


----------



## ryan s

truckerfte said:


> So i have bought some nice equipment for myself, and generated an income stream on the side. All from $200 worth of Ebay amps.
> 
> Im not bragging. Im just showing how it is VERY possible to start small, and grow big. It didn't happen overnight. There were mistakes made along the way(i have a pile of broken amps from scammers to prove it).But i did it. You can too. There is no secret to what i have done, just a little planning, thinking, and work. I cleared a few hundred extra bucks last weekend. A lot of it generated from the evil sellers on ebay that you started this thread to trash.


Finally, something we can agree on :laugh: 

It's the initial outlay of the principle, if you will, that's the hardest. There's stuff at, say $250, that's worth more...but one would need that money up front and have enough left over in the bank to let that $250 item sit, if need be.

Or $1000 or whatever value. My hobbies pay for themselves, as well 


JAX said:


> I will have a conversation with anyone. But there is no point if you admit you don't belive I any conservative idea. Even I won't say something like that cause I don't know it all. There may be something I might agree upon at some point. But I will never agree its ok to steal from one to give to another if the other is able to do for themselves. Been working longer than you have been breathing air. Changed jobs more times than I care to count over something not fair. Its life. Life aint fair. Liberals scream about equality but union people get favorable reatment over private workers. But that's ok cause liberals and unions are in bed together. Union people keep liberals in power in turn liberals make deals that the rest of us pay for. Its easy to spend someone elses dime. If that doesn't bother you then you must have too much money or no responsibilty or bills. If neither applies yet you still feel its ok to give away everyone elses money then by all means you and all liberals start giving up Your money. Yours. I will be glad to take a donation from a liberal if its money they had to work for and not money they extorted from someone else. That is one area I will almost never agree on with a liberal on is money. Social security is toast. I have given in for 28yrs. Will not get a dime of it. ****ed over. Stupid politicians ****ed that up. Thx. You seem to think I will automatically go with any conservative idea and against any liberal one. I would never cut myself out of options without hearing them but problem is I keep hearing the same crap. I need to see where it worked and didn't bankrupt a town, state or country.


Taxation isn't "giving money away" though...it's not "redistributing the wealth"...or any other buzzword way of describing it. 

Private in blue, public in red:









Ezra Klein - Are Wisconsin's state and local workers overpaid?

Quoted in part: http://www.epi.org/page/-/old/policy/EPI_PolicyMemorandum_173.pdf


> These increased benefit contributions would subject them to a pay cut greater than 10% and eliminate their collective bargaining rights.
> 
> But when we compare apples to apples, we find that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less in total compensation than comparable private sector workers. The comparisons—controlling for education, experience, hours of work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship, and disability—demonstrate that full-time state and local public employees earn lower wages and receive less in total compensation (including all benefits) than comparable private sector employees.
> 
> Why does it appear otherwise? Both nationally and within Wisconsin, public sector workers are significantly more educated than their private sector counterparts. Nationally, 54% of full-time state and local public sector workers hold at least a four-year college degree, compared with 35% of full-time private sector workers. In Wisconsin, the difference is even greater: 59% of full-time Wisconsin public sector workers hold at least a four-year college degree, compared with 30% of full-time private sector workers.
> 
> These stark educational differences arise for two reasons. First, many public employees are professionals and teachers in positions that require higher levels of education. Second, the movement to privatize public sector work has been accomplished in great part by moving low-skilled work from the public to private sector, where benefits are often more modest.
> 
> Public employees receive substantially lower wages, but much better benefits than their private sector counterparts. Wisconsin state and local governments pay public employees 14.2% lower annual wages than comparable private sector employees. On an hourly basis, they earn 10.7% less in wages. College-educated employees earn on average 28 percent less in wages and 25% less in total compensation in the public sector than in the private sector.


Also, what's the future like? No more social security, but do we have flying cars yet? Sorry...had to do it


----------



## JAX

what about the government makes you feel they arent wasting my money? they take it from us and no they dont just stand on the street handing it out, but they use it to pay for whatever they wish.

they dont send me a bill and state they need this for that and this much for that and so on and so forth . I dont then send them a check for each and they do not then pay for what it was.

they collect it as a whole and then spend or repay what they already spent. 

problem is they wont stop spending. if they werent continually increasing the amount they are spending then we could get by without constantly asking for more taxes, fees , hikes or whatever you wish to call it.

I have never heard a liberal say we have a spending issue. Its always we dont have enough money so we are going to have to make someone suffer cause you dont want to pay more tax. 

you just cant argue with me that there isnt a way to cut back and spend less. 

I said we could get out of the war business . But one thing is certain. all other countries that are able to are increasing their military one way or the other. 

I your sure you want to keep hacking away at our defense until we are just waiting to be owned? 


Your graph and story. hmm. I read it twice. still dont know the circumstances on how it was done and I know nothing about the Washington Post so I dont know that they arent biased with the story.

I honestly like it when I hear or read a story that was put out by a country other than the US when it comes to the US



There will be no flying cars in the future here in the USA. we will be riding donkeys and lving in huts. 

all the rich folk will be on another continent


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

truckerfte said:


> wow. just wow. once again, you just cant make a point, so you digress to insults.
> 
> first off, i don't HAVE to leave the country to get my healthcare. I chose to. The reasons i have stated already. First, yea its cheaper. Im not having to pay for people who would rather not EARN their healthcare. Second, im not paying a premium to cover an American DR's malpractice insurance. Its a crying shame that an educated person has to cover his ass because people love to play the litigation lottery. The simple fact is, i net more than my family practice Dr does. Third, the FDA is about 10 years behind the rest of the developed world in medical tech. My procedure just isnt available here, at any price. Fourth, my surgeon has more experience than 90% of anyone in the US.
> 
> 
> You are right. Oilfield hands make a lot of money. Im on the high side of what you think we make. But, not everyone in the patch is out tripping pipe at 3am in the middle of winter. Some of us(like me) get to drive around, doing about an honest 3 hours of labor a shift. i might put in 10-12 hours a shift. Sure, its not 9-5, but i earn a lil more than your average bank teller. Yeah, there are a lot of ******** in the business. However, i don't see them crying that $3 a gallon for gas is too expensive. Seems these ******** have figured out what you have not...how to earn a living. Did i have to do a lot of ass-busting to get to this point? yes. its worth it when i don't have to worry about an extra dollar of gallon for gas cutting into my lifestyle..c'mon, for most people, thats about $10 a week. If you are cutting it that close, you have failed in life somewhere.
> 
> Taxes suck. I employ someone to minimize that for me.I dont pay anywhere near 45%. But until something like the fair tax is put in place, it is what it is. You jump up and down screaming about how much money big oil makes. I don't see you saying much about how much THEY pay in taxes. iirc, exxon-mobil put about 8 billion in the us treasury's coffers last year. Now, if this evil corp didn't make this kind of profit, where exactly is the money gonna come from for the govt to pay for all the things you feel you are entitled to? The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of rich people to steal from.
> 
> Back to the people in the oil patch. I think it would be a lot of fun to watch ya walk into a bar in pampa on a friday night and insult them like that. You won't make it out. Are they a rough group of people? yes. are they the knuckle dragging Neanderthals you claim them to be? No. Simple fact is, no one with a record like you describe is getting a decent paying job around here. For ****s sake, do you have any idea the hoops you have to jump through to get a HAZ-Mat endorsement? trust me, no one with a criminal background is working in MY part of the patch.
> 
> I dont work for some companies profit. I work for MY rational self-interest. I want my employer to make billlions of dollars a year. It insures that they can pay what i demand for my services. I have never worked for a broke man.
> 
> 
> what kind of system do i live in? a flawed one for sure. but one that allows a former homeless man to WORK his ass off, earn a nearly 6-figure paycheck, be able to do things like travel internationally to write a check for things he needs/wants.
> 
> i shudder to think what my life would look like if the world was ran as you think it should be. I promise i wouldnt be where i am now .
> 
> im sorry you have an aversion to working, im sorry you don't understand the concept of sacrificing for long-term goals. The difference between you, myself, and patriot tech is this: 5 years from now, you will be exactly where you are now. PT and i will be signing the front side of payroll checks.
> 
> 
> ......perhaps you should go spend some time under the dame bridge i did....maybe you will learn something.
> 
> You seem to think you are a pretty bright guy. Go buy a book by AYN RAND called Atlas Shrugged. I know, its a little long, and there arent any pictures. But itll show ya what happens when the world is ran under your ideals. Problem is, there ain't gonna be a John Gault to save our asses. And if that extra dollar for gas is killing ya, im sure your local library has a copy for ya.
> 
> 
> "I swear on my life, and my love of it, that i will not live for the sake of another man. Nor will i ask another man to live for the sake of mine." -Ayn Rand


 Again. Didnt even bother reading the entire response. What I did read gives me the feeling ( as all your posts due) that your are full of pride and do boast. Actually you seem to bragg! For what I have no idea why? You were homeless! Wow who cares? You now make allot of money. Who cares. You buy and sale audio. Again, who cares. Cause at the end of the day you come off as a greedy old fart that kids cant stand. Kids are the future. And noone will like you. Quoting some ******* about not living for the sake of another is like saying you can care less about everybody else cause noone else cares about you. You suck! plain and simple.
I sure as hell aint gonna say I live for myself when my lil girl is all of my happiness and everything I live for. 
Not everybody is my kid but everybody is someones kid. 
Definition
sake 1 (sk)
n.
1. Purpose; motive: a quarrel only for the sake of argument.
2. Advantage; good: for the sake of his health.
3. Personal benefit or interest; welfare: for her own sake.
As we can see, you have no interest in anybodies health or welfare so why would anybody pay for your health? 
The absolute disrespect you show is just sickening! I cant take it! But there are people like you in the millions! Time for a change.....Its coming


----------



## truckerfte

> As we can see, you have no interest in anybodies health or welfare so why would anybody pay for your health?
> The absolute disrespect you show is just sickening! I cant take it! But there are people like you in the millions! Time for a change.....Its coming
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldnt want anyone to pay for my health...
> 
> Taking care of myself is disrespect?
> 
> There is change coming...and i PROMISE you won't like it.
> 
> 
> its your problem that i come off as a greedy old fart. yes, there is some pride in my remarks. im just doing what you say cant be done. no matter how impossible you seem to think things are, someone can overcome them. but you can't accept the fact that your preconceived notions are false. people can get ahead even in a recession. with work a homeless guy can not only get out from under the bridge, but have a better income and lifestyle than you do. you dont have to spend a fortune in cash to have a nice system.
> 
> im sorry these are things you just arent bright enough to wrap your head around. there is nothing else i can do for you. i mean really...one of the things you whined about was not being able to afford audio because of the price of gas. I WALKED YOU THROUGH A PROCESS TO GET WHAT YOU WANT!!! and instead of "hey thanks, ill try that" i get "greedy old fart that kids hate". C'mon, who is being disrespectful here?
> 
> 
> the rand quote isnt about not caring...its about SELF RELIANCE. a concept that completely baffles you.
> 
> I swear to god, a hundred years ago you would have been eaten on the way to the outhouse.
Click to expand...


----------



## JAX

I tell you what is sickening ..

sickening is hearing union people ***** if they are going to have to pay for part of their benefits like the rest of us already do but for much less.

if we all could only get the same kinds of deals union people get.

that is what is sickening.


----------



## Patriot_tech

truckerfte said:


> I swear to god, a hundred years ago you would have been eaten on the way to the outhouse.
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh: That's a great one!
> 
> Jax:
> 
> My brother and I are currently not on speaking terms because of SB 5 here in Ohio. He is a teacher (as are both my sister-in-laws and my wife) and is taking SB 5 as his cause. His rants are ridiculous at best. They are exactly what his union has put out as talking points.
> 
> 1) Repeat as much as needed "It's not about the money, it's about the kids."
> 2) Kids will be hurt by this
> 3) Repeat #1
> 
> The more they say its not about the money, the more we in the real world know it is. He feels he has a 'Right' to a job that pays him what HE feels he is worth. Usually, we get along and for a while I even had him convinced that Obama was bad for the nation. Now he says he'll never vote Republican again. To that I say 'Velcome to socialist republic of America, comrade!' which pisses him off.
> 
> Btw, my other brother is a cop who is on the fence and understands both sides.
Click to expand...


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

truckerfte said:


> As we can see, you have no interest in anybodies health or welfare so why would anybody pay for your health?
> The absolute disrespect you show is just sickening! I cant take it! But there are people like you in the millions! Time for a change.....Its coming
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldnt want anyone to pay for my health...
> 
> Taking care of myself is disrespect?
> 
> There is change coming...and i PROMISE you won't like it.
> 
> 
> its your problem that i come off as a greedy old fart. yes, there is some pride in my remarks. im just doing what you say cant be done. no matter how impossible you seem to think things are, someone can overcome them. but you can't accept the fact that your preconceived notions are false. people can get ahead even in a recession. with work a homeless guy can not only get out from under the bridge, but have a better income and lifestyle than you do. you dont have to spend a fortune in cash to have a nice system.
> 
> im sorry these are things you just arent bright enough to wrap your head around. there is nothing else i can do for you. i mean really...one of the things you whined about was not being able to afford audio because of the price of gas. I WALKED YOU THROUGH A PROCESS TO GET WHAT YOU WANT!!! and instead of "hey thanks, ill try that" i get "greedy old fart that kids hate". C'mon, who is being disrespectful here?
> 
> 
> the rand quote isnt about not caring...its about SELF RELIANCE. a concept that completely baffles you.
> 
> I swear to god, a hundred years ago you would have been eaten on the way to the outhouse.
> 
> 
> 
> Whining? Pshht... Hand to the face old man. Im saying what everybody else thinks. That is, **** is too expensive! So dont be calling people whiners when they get ripped off at gas stations etc etc And no, its your problem that you suck. Not mine. Also, overcoming an obstacle such as income or whatever the situation, is possible. But did you mention the total ******** people have to go through to make that happen? I really dont feel like buying 20 amps for a few bucks profit just to run into a potential PayPal problem down the road. Millions of people have to do things they dont want to do just to make ends meet. That sucks! Noone should have to be put through such ********. So yea people can eventually get back on there feet in a recession. But to you it is like magic where poof. All is good if you just make effort. It aint so easy. People have lost life savings! There entire home and income. Gone! You really think its so simple? Sometimes I just wonder if you are full of **** and were never homeless cause you act like you have no clue how bad it can be.
> We have really derailed from the original subject which was a simple auction that shows just how insane pricing is on ebay. Here you come along with the attitude that , that is actually an acceptable way of doin biz. If I dont like it all I have to do is not bid. Sure I can do that. We all can. But dont we all wish we could do that with gas, electricity, cable, internet, cell phone, list goes on and on? We cant! The system has locked us in on many items we need. And because we need these things they can rip us off and DO rip us off 24/7 cause we have no other avenue of obtaining these items. Now, with that in mind, my point was that eventually even ebay will be this way. The searches on ebay are resulting in more and more relistings everyday. This isnt a coincidence. Its due to people jacking up prices. People think they can wait and get a better deal. Them deals are getting few and far between. Eventually there wont be any deals. Trust me. The facts are in the searches.
> Also you have this idea that you make more money than me. You have no idea what I make. You assume I dont make a dime cause I dont like the way prices are set. Does it really mater anyway? All you are trying to do is portray me in "lower class". It doesnt matter if Im a broke ass bum or a millionaire. My points are well taken across the income spectrum. Fact is prices are just stupid.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## truckerfte

speakers, you have not proposed ONE solution to your problems. you are, simply put, a HATER. I imagine you feel it is acceptable for the Gov't to tax people like me into oblivion simply because we have done better at life than you have. At least i think you do. You have failed to offer a single solution. I imagine you have some ideas, but you know already that any idea you give will get you ripped to shreds in here. 

I have given you several examples from my own life that i have done in my own life to make things better for me. Instead of thanking me for throwing some ideas out there, you have done nothing but flame. ANYONE CAN DO WHAT I HAVE DONE. ANYONE. If a "baffoon" like me can do it, im sure a bright guy like you can. After all, you are an intellectually superior person to this simple truck driver. 

your unwillingness to help yourself is astonishing. Kid, you are a perfect example if why without a doubt i say

.................POVERTY IS A MENTAL DISEASE


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

truckerfte said:


> speakers, you have not proposed ONE solution to your problems. you are, simply put, a HATER. I imagine you feel it is acceptable for the Gov't to tax people like me into oblivion simply because we have done better at life than you have. At least i think you do. You have failed to offer a single solution. I imagine you have some ideas, but you know already that any idea you give will get you ripped to shreds in here.
> 
> I have given you several examples from my own life that i have done in my own life to make things better for me. Instead of thanking me for throwing some ideas out there, you have done nothing but flame. ANYONE CAN DO WHAT I HAVE DONE. ANYONE. If a "baffoon" like me can do it, im sure a bright guy like you can. After all, you are an intellectually superior person to this simple truck driver.
> 
> your unwillingness to help yourself is astonishing. Kid, you are a perfect example if why without a doubt i say
> 
> .................POVERTY IS A MENTAL DISEASE


Yea Im a hater. I hate the system! And these problems are not just mine. They are every bodies problems. Maybe you havent noticed but things are kinda f'ed up around here. The US has gone to ****! As if im the only person that buys gas and likes car audio. Dude you are really looking to get the last word arent you. Everytime you respond you say the oddest things. As if you pay no attention to what Im sayin, You want me to post links and give the ultimate answers to everybodies problems. So what you want is for me to be God? You act like its against the law to talk about problems without having the answer. Duh! Some things just dont have a quick fix. And even if I did have a fix how would I make it happen? I mean seriously. Should I just move on and bid elsewhere like you suggest and let the problem get worse? Or should I let the seller know how I feel Like I said in the beginning of this thread. Dude, you are just acting juvenile with this. I mean dam! You cant GET what Im saying? You cant understand the simple **** I just explained? Im sorry Im cursing and calling names but its like talking to a brick! I cant get through to you! At all. 
About the tax scenario you suggest I believe in. NO that isnt what I think is right. Actually what I think is acceptable is a flat 10% tax. That is fair. We have to pay for Military so we can be safe. And I think a small bit of tax should go to severely disabled people who cant live a life on there own power. I also belive that the few who are own disability, welfare and other government handouts should be monthly drug tested just like any other job that provides income. Ill tell you right off that just the drug tests would take out most of the useless scum sucking off of Uncle Sams tit. The gas issue is somewhat fixable by FIRST of all lifting teh moratorium in the Gulf. Its a stupid and most hurtful and evil thing to withhold jobs such as what they are doin in South. Open up the Gulf, Alaska, The midwest and the Pacific for Oil. While we drill and find oil there we start creating useful alternative energy sources that will save us money and free us from the eventual death of the oil usage. Its stupid that gas just went up due to some creepozoid ******* in Lybia. Who cares what that wackjob says. Kick his ass out like the other ******* from Egypt and be done with it! And STOP bailing out Companies that cant fix there won dam problems. Id like a bailout! Im sure we all would. We are at 5 Trillion in debt. One fact that is startling is that just the INTEREST alone on the loan from China is paying for 85% of Chinas military! LOL Its insane! As for ebay. I suggest doing away with BIN. That is the MAIN cause of high prices. Its an AUCTION not a store. When they went to the BIN they ruined the auction experience. There is far more fun in bidding wars and it actually gets items sold. You put teh sam eitem on a BIN and on a normal Auction starting at $1 and you will always see the auction sells and sells at a fair price. BIN sits there getting relisted over and over. Now, with alll this Im sure others will disagree. Thats life. But my opinions are based on facts that I have over time experimented with and studied upon. As for your suggestions of fixing things, I think they suck! Who really wants to buy 10 or 20 amps and dust them off to resell for a small profit? Sounds decent but theres time and effort looking and reselling. Theres better ways to make money. Also, we all dont want to drive a truck. It kinda sucks to sit in a truck for days. We have kids to grow up with. Patriot made a good effort to start a new biz. I applaud the effort. BUT the scary part is that most of the time that tactic fails. Nike, Sears, countless other huge international companies failed over 3 times when they first started. But they had help outside and had the ability to keep trying. We as individuals have one shot. If it fails we are screwed royally and that is dangerous to gamble in my opinion. And Poverty isnt a mental disease. Laziness is. Dont put Lazy with legitimate poverty. Noone wants to be in poverty. Even lazy people.


----------



## daudioman

I'm just glad that EVERYONE in ths thread has finally started discussing the actual probelms that started this thread and presenting solutions... without flaming...!


----------



## truckerfte

finally, some reason. as far as oil goes, you are on the right track

as far as taxes go, your idea needs refining. a flat tax rate would be a regressive tax on low income earners. im not as unreasonable as you seem to think i am. but i have ZERO tolerance for people who have the "woe is me" attitude you have expressed untill this point. a much better idea is the Fair Tax. 

The us has gone to ****. sitting around bitching about it won't help. you CAN make a difference. picking candidates who share your views is a good start. but it isnt nearly enough. contribute to their campaign funds. plant their colors in your front yard. talk to your friends and neighbors. volunteer as a campaign worker. go knock on some doors. 

better yet, run for office yourself. i know this is going to sound like bragging to you. but when my state house rep retired last cycle, i damn near ran for it. fortunately, a libertarian who shared my views stepped up at the last minute. as good as my comeback story is, i have a ****-ton of skeletons in my closet. 

you don't want to drive a truck, dont. im not sure where i said you should. HOWEVER, there are a ****load of people on unemployment right now who could be working. You dont always get to do what you want to. ill go flip burgers before i collect a govt check. i have done it before, and adjusted my lifestyle accordingly. unemployment is in the 9% range, yet the packing house 30mi from here has imported over 1000 workers from Burma and Somalia IN THE LAST YEAR. Right now my company is severely short-handed. The only thing saving our asses this month is a major refinery shutting down for repairs. This prolly wouldnt happen if the EPA bastards had let someone build a refinery since 1974. Or perhaps they could get off their collective asses and approve the last stretch of pipeline from alaska to the gulf. as it stands, there IS NO SHORTAGE OF OIL. the **** is stacked deep everywhere. we just cant refine it. There is where the bulk of high fuel prices comes from. Those record profits? it is from increased demand. percentage wise, they are making the same per refined gallon they always have. 

I dont stay out days at a time driving a truck. im home every day. You might be surprised how many Dr's, pharma techs, shrinks, chemists, and middle management types i have trained to drive a truck. these people decided that when their conditions changed, they needed to adapt to survive. malpractice insurance costs are driving the dr's out of the field. when i said earlier that i net more than my family dr, i was dead serious. 

you don't want to buy and sell amps? dont do it. i was simply offering an alternative to pay for your hobby. but it is effective, and it works. several of us here do it. thanks to the advent of the smartphone, i don't sacrifice much time doing it. I sit on location hours a day. nothing better to do than surf the net and pick up deals. so i make productive use of otherwise wasted time. i walked in the house 10 minutes ago from installing a setup for a customer to demo in the morning. it took me all of 10 minutes to purchase the subs for 100. the box came from the stack i bought from dallas. the amp took another 10 minutes, and a hundred bucks. 15 min to throw it in the car. the actual sale will take about 15min. so i have about an hour of my time tied up in this, and i will net 150. how much do you make an hour? and a always have 2-3 "big" deals like this going, besides the one-off amp sales. there IS risk. like i said before, i have a stack of bad amps, and speakers to prove it. it does cut into profit some, but its a cost of doing business. 

Yes, patriot may fail in his business, and only my operation has held me back from a planned trucking company start-up(im giving myself a few months recovery time) i will likely fail as well. 90% of all small businesses fail in the first year. its an inescapable fact that cant be hidden from. BUT THE RATE OF FAILURE OF BUSINESSES NOT STARTED IS 100%!! No risk, no reward. simply put, if you work for someone, you are putting money in their pocket. otherwise there is ZERO reason for your position. if you are comfortable with that, good for you. just keep in mind that it makes you just another in the flock of sheep you railed against earlier. 



now...back to the topic at hand. im sorry you feel you are talking to a brick. the simple fact is, you are wrong. the ebay market, like every other market, is self correcting. Im sorry you don't like BIN...about 25% of my ebay purchases are bin's. it has not hurt anything. the bin on the whizzer cone speakers has Zero effect on any other auction. one of two things is gonna happen to them. either they dont sell, or they do. most likely, they won't. but who knows, there may be some eccentric guy out there trying to build an exact replica of the chevette he owned back in 1989. the seller may have the only available set on the market. guess what? it is suddenly worth something to the buyer. the speaker set has ZERO value until someone exchanges money for it. then it is worth whatever the seller and buyer agree upon.

look at one make and model of amp. the mighty orion 225hcca. most of us would agree the value of these amps is 100-130 depending on condition. every few weeks, there are a handful of them with 175 bin's. and they sit. meanwhile, the cheaper ones move. this brings down the prices of the bin guys. because they want their items to sell. Remember that "pink floyd" 225hcca that sat with a bin of 500 for over a year? it started coming down. last time i saw it it was in the 250 range. the market dictated what it was worth. it did not bring up the average price of 225 hccas. his price came down.

same story with the ms8. there are people who still feel they are worth 650 ish. you know damn well one sold here nib in the low 400's just last night. the 500-550 "bin" guys didn't bring his price up, he is bringing theirs down. if suddenly there was some kind of shortage of them, then the market would automatically adjust. i don't see that happening. matter of fact, im anxiously awaiting for the new alpine unit to come out. no, i dont want one. but there will be a bunch of guys moving over to alpine, and a bunch of ms8's will hit the market. you think the price on these is going to go up because one of these guys decides to price his "bin" at 600? no, it just wont sell.


----------



## SB3BabyHuey

Cant believe this is still going.....wow


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

SB3BabyHuey said:


> Cant believe this is still going.....wow


LOL I agree...


----------



## daudioman

I'm glad its going on and back to being more on the original topic (although the other digressing comments were almost entertaining too.) Also glad that the two main contenders seem to have found some common ground...

...well sort of


----------



## truckerfte

daudioman said:


> I'm glad its going on and back to being more on the original topic (although the other digressing comments were almost entertaining too.) Also glad that the two main contenders seem to have found some common ground...
> 
> ...well sort of


all the op had to do was engage in rational discourse, instead of what has proceeded it. but the tangents the thread took aren't unrelated to the original intent of the thread. markets are markets whether its fleabay, or medical care, or gas prices, or the job market. they ALL follow the same rules. 90% of his counters to my statements have been what salesmen refer to as "false objections". they are only obstacles in this "buyers" mind. i just wasn't good enough to overcome them. i know im right about most of this. its all been done and proven. So the failure is mine. 

I knew from his very first post what he was saying. Im not a brick. Lets face it, regardless of what he says, this is a LOT deeper than BIN pricing on ebay. Its about his distaste for the system as a whole, and no offense, his apparent lack of knowledge on how it works, and how to make it work for him.


As much as i use ebay, i have a certain amount of distaste for parts of myself. My problem isnt that the highest bidder wins, its that the last bidder wins. When the clock runs out, i cant counter-bid. All i can see is what the highest current bid is. that does not tell me what another buyers highest proxy is, so i have no idea what i am up against. Its more like a gameshow than an auction. I did whine about it, even started a couple of threads about it like the op did. That got me nowhere.

I overcame this. I just started using a sniper. I put my bid in about 30 bucks or so lower than i think i can sell the amp for. Then forget about it. 90% of the time i win. no one knows what my bid is until a couple of seconds before the end time. or even that im bidding at all. i just don't worry about the nibblers anymore, because i either pay what i want(more often less) for the amp, or i dont get it.


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

truckerfte said:


> all the op had to do was engage in rational discourse, instead of what has proceeded it. but the tangents the thread took aren't unrelated to the original intent of the thread. markets are markets whether its fleabay, or medical care, or gas prices, or the job market. they ALL follow the same rules. 90% of his counters to my statements have been what salesmen refer to as "false objections". they are only obstacles in this "buyers" mind. i just wasn't good enough to overcome them. i know im right about most of this. its all been done and proven. So the failure is mine.
> 
> I knew from his very first post what he was saying. Im not a brick. Lets face it, regardless of what he says, this is a LOT deeper than BIN pricing on ebay. Its about his distaste for the system as a whole, and no offense, his apparent lack of knowledge on how it works, and how to make it work for him.
> 
> 
> As much as i use ebay, i have a certain amount of distaste for parts of myself. My problem isnt that the highest bidder wins, its that the last bidder wins. When the clock runs out, i cant counter-bid. All i can see is what the highest current bid is. that does not tell me what another buyers highest proxy is, so i have no idea what i am up against. Its more like a gameshow than an auction. I did whine about it, even started a couple of threads about it like the op did. That got me nowhere.
> 
> I overcame this. I just started using a sniper. I put my bid in about 30 bucks or so lower than i think i can sell the amp for. Then forget about it. 90% of the time i win. no one knows what my bid is until a couple of seconds before the end time. or even that im bidding at all. i just don't worry about the nibblers anymore, because i either pay what i want(more often less) for the amp, or i dont get it.


Sorry...but, who cares

LAST word


----------



## truckerfte

Speakers4Weapons said:


> Sorry...but, who cares
> 
> LAST word


Apparently you do, after all, you started a ****ing thread about it!

Look asswipe, you almost had me thinking you were going to have a reasoable conversation. Apparently you are just trolling. You start a topic, and when it became clear you were having your ass handed to you, you resorted to name-caling, diversion, and just being an ******* in general. If you want to start a topic, be ready to defend your point of view, or shut the **** up. Go on, live your life as you see fit. But stop bitching about what you CAN change, but are too big of a ***** to actually do anything about it. 


Final word? **** YOU

/thread


----------



## JAX

trucker I respect you for what you have done with your self in hard times . 

Bravo.


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

truckerfte said:


> Apparently you do, after all, you started a ****ing thread about it!
> 
> Look asswipe, you almost had me thinking you were going to have a reasoable conversation. Apparently you are just trolling. You start a topic, and when it became clear you were having your ass handed to you, you resorted to name-caling, diversion, and just being an ******* in general. If you want to start a topic, be ready to defend your point of view, or shut the **** up. Go on, live your life as you see fit. But stop bitching about what you CAN change, but are too big of a ***** to actually do anything about it.
> 
> 
> Final word? **** YOU
> 
> /thread


LOL Bla blah..... weak sauce old man........
horay for the homeless old prick that got a job.. YAY! Who cares. Not me.. 
My original post was about an auction. Thats what I care about. Not you or your tribulations in the garbage piles.
You had to turn it into, LOOK at me! Im a homeless dude who made a better life for himself! Blah Blah.... I actually explained it like 3 times! You COULD have just left the **** alone but you had to go respond again. You saw what the dude said. Cant believe this is still goin on! I cant either! Cause its like you just have to have the last word . You think you have to tell people about your rise from the garbage piles to get some kind of pat on the back like JAX just did. What a martyr.... Im weaping......


----------



## daudioman

Here we go again...

I will digress from the argument and agree that more DIYMA's members should use various sniping programs/websites (I use bidnip.com and I love it!). That alone would lower prices on eBay. There are so many uniformed fools who just bid away and jack up prices even more. 

...on the other hand those fools are the reason I sell so much on ebay and make some nice coin ;-)!!!!!!!!!

BTW keep this up SFW and you will have 50 posts so you could start selling on here instead of eBay :laugh: !!!!!!!!!


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

daudioman said:


> Here we go again...
> 
> I will digress from the argument and agree that more DIYMA's members should use various sniping programs/websites (I use bidnip.com and I love it!). That alone would lower prices on eBay. There are so many uniformed fools who just bid away and jack up prices even more.
> 
> ...on the other hand those fools are the reason I sell so much on ebay and make some nice coin ;-)!!!!!!!!!
> 
> BTW keep this up SFW and you will have 50 posts so you could start selling on here instead of eBay :laugh: !!!!!!!!!


 WOW really? Yawnnnn......


----------



## daudioman

Well I figure this:

If we are all going to ***** about eBay and the prices then someone should take advantage of the situation (free market at work I guess)! For example I just recently scored a $4000 win on eBay that is easily worth more than $7000 on there in a lot purchase. With discounts (ebay bucks etc...) I could have $3700 in the purchase. I simply stumbled on a purchase of some items that I personally know are worth double what the seller will receive. And funny thing is he thinks he got a great price... WOW!!! (For the record this will be one of my best flips ever!)

Now the only problem is I have to convince myself to sell it all as its BNIB primo stuff???? Maybe I'll sell enough to break even and keep the rest of it!!! 

You have eloquently made it clear that BIN prices are not "fair" on eBay. Also you are not wanting to do the "flip game" (on here or ebay). And you have made clear that you have the means to pay so that's not the issue.

Therefore my point is I have no problem saying things are rough, hard or too expensive but meanwhile what should we going to do about it?...or I should say whats the best plan to change it? ...At the end of the day its our collective tactions we take that defines us all. 

...and on that note I'm going to enjoy my $3K (tax free) I will make in about 2 hours of my time...not bad for trolling on eBay and knowing the market! :laugh:

Peace and Love SFW!!!!


----------



## Speakers4Weapons

daudioman said:


> Well I figure this:
> 
> If we are all going to ***** about eBay and the prices then someone should take advantage of the situation (free market at work I guess)! For example I just recently scored a $4000 win on eBay that is easily worth more than $7000 on there in a lot purchase. With discounts (ebay bucks etc...) I could have $3700 in the purchase. I simply stumbled on a purchase of some items that I personally know are worth double what the seller will receive. And funny thing is he thinks he got a great price... WOW!!! (For the record this will be one of my best flips ever!)
> 
> Now the only problem is I have to convince myself to sell it all as its BNIB primo stuff???? Maybe I'll sell enough to break even and keep the rest of it!!!
> 
> You have eloquently made it clear that BIN prices are not "fair" on eBay. Also you are not wanting to do the "flip game" (on here or ebay). And you have made clear that you have the means to pay so that's not the issue.
> 
> Therefore my point is I have no problem saying things are rough, hard or too expensive but meanwhile what should we going to do about it?...or I should say whats the best plan to change it? ...At the end of the day its our collective tactions we take that defines us all.
> 
> ...and on that note I'm going to enjoy my $3K (tax free) I will make in about 2 hours of my time...not bad for trolling on eBay and knowing the market! :laugh:
> 
> Peace and Love SFW!!!!


How did I eloquently make it clear that BIN is unfair?  Rather I think I at least tried to suggest that it shouldnt be on a AUCTION website where people bid! If you think its fair to buy one priced items on an auction website without any potential of bidding then yay for you. I can goto countless websites to click a button and BIN. BIN is just like any other website using point of sale pricing. BIN created the ,, and here it is Eloquently, high priced items we all see on ebay that get relisted all the time. Its a waste of time , space and money to put BIN on auction websites for the MOST part. SOmetimes we can get lucky and hit a cheap BIN. I think those are few and far between and the prices are increasing all the time. I just bought a new LED TV from the Local store. Ebay was higher! I see this often! Why? BIN! It has NO PLACE in a Auction! HAve you ever been to a real auction? They dont say " we have a new car amp for $150, no bids allowed" LOL Come on man! Im pulling my hair out cause I cant be the only person that sees this dumb move ebay made. But you are happy so yay for you! As for the Flip idea. WTF is this? A flip around on my words? Go ahead and buy cheap then resale all day I dont care. Just dont jack up the price so it looks like you wanna rape people! Is that so dam hard to calculate and understand? Cause thats what I been saying this whole thread. OR....Lets take Trucker the homeless wonder 's suggestions and you go ahead and ramp up the resale prices on your stuff cause thats the American way and Ill just hit the back button and pretend I never saw your ridiculous prices! LOL you people crack me up at the azz clown bullsht you all come up with. This is the last ****ing time I respond to this thread cause Im just done with explaining why a simple auction such as the one I posted SUCKS!


----------



## mine4118

unfortunately there are suckers out there that think price means quality...and ebay sellers are honest...


----------



## JAX

daudioman said:


> Well I figure this:
> 
> If we are all going to ***** about eBay and the prices then someone should take advantage of the situation (free market at work I guess)! For example I just recently scored a $4000 win on eBay that is easily worth more than $7000 on there in a lot purchase. With discounts (ebay bucks etc...) I could have $3700 in the purchase. I simply stumbled on a purchase of some items that I personally know are worth double what the seller will receive. And funny thing is he thinks he got a great price... WOW!!! (For the record this will be one of my best flips ever!)
> 
> Now the only problem is I have to convince myself to sell it all as its BNIB primo stuff???? Maybe I'll sell enough to break even and keep the rest of it!!!
> 
> You have eloquently made it clear that BIN prices are not "fair" on eBay. Also you are not wanting to do the "flip game" (on here or ebay). And you have made clear that you have the means to pay so that's not the issue.
> 
> Therefore my point is I have no problem saying things are rough, hard or too expensive but meanwhile what should we going to do about it?...or I should say whats the best plan to change it? ...At the end of the day its our collective tactions we take that defines us all.
> 
> ...and on that note I'm going to enjoy my $3K (tax free) I will make in about 2 hours of my time...not bad for trolling on eBay and knowing the market! :laugh:
> 
> Peace and Love SFW!!!!


since you have been bragging on your practices on here so much I dont know if your going to get any DIYMA members business.


----------



## JAX

mine4118 said:


> unfortunately there are suckers out there that think price means quality...and ebay sellers are honest...


some are honest.


----------



## daudioman

JAX said:


> since you have been bragging on your practices on here so much I dont know if your going to get any DIYMA members business.


So truckertfe can talk about flipping stuff with snipping tools, driving to get speaker boxes and hustling to get some cash and he gets your respect...


But I talk about one score on eBay and I'm bragging!?!?!? Explain that to me???

JAX I don’t think you are really being fair, we are both talking about the same thing. But its OK. My goal was not to brag but to inform how easy it can be to sell on eBay and make some money. Obviously I don’t get rich doing this but if it makes the hobby we love so much less expensive (while treating people fairly) allowing us to more easily enjoy it then I'm for it. Isn’t that the essence of this forum, to help out fellow members with anything concerning car audio? 

I do actually use a good bit of what I buy but most of it I don’t. But as for this particular flip honestly I probably will keep the stuff anyway. I would rather have this stuff for the insane price I found than the money 

It seems that that DIYMA members are obviously very informed car stereo users but we as a group can come off as sounding entitled as far as car stereo deals. For example can you really tell me why members would not buy from me because I said I bought this stuff so cheap? May be a psychological issue but consider the prices that I could sell this stuff for I think the vultures would forget my cost !!! 

How many members for example buy stuff at employee accommodation from a work/employment relationship and then resell it often times for more than for what they have into it? I have... 

If DIYMA members do not buy because as your saying "I'm bragging"...well that’s their choice I guess. I personally have sold stuff to a few members that have found me on eBay and have been plenty happy with my prices, product, integrity and shipping and I would think....me! So after 14 years of selling on there I wont be stopping anytime soon. It would be too bad for me if I don’t sell on here but honestly, I did not plan on it anyway. DIYMA is a VERY SPECIALIZED community market so most members don’t end up being my customers. We both know that the average DIYMA member is not paying what the typical market price is...they are waiting for the below market deal. Heck we have forums just to advertise that purpose (Craigslist, Ebay auction links, Hot links, etc...)!!!! 

So again I say why am I the criminal because I made some money from someone’s ignorance about the value of some car stereo electronics in the marketplace.....?

...I mean what should I do....not buy the stuff and turn down a $3K opportunity (while maintaining high integrity and ethics)....C’mon Jax that’s crazy! I know for a fact that everyone is happy with the deal I made...! My seller personally told me so!

If telling everyone on here risks my future sales on here then I have to question why would I even consider selling on here anyway? Then maybe we are not the community we advertise ourselves to be....and that would be sad for all of us!

But I do sincerely thank for your opinion and I'll consider how I approach my future sales because of you...


----------



## JAX

daudioman said:


> So truckertfe can talk about flipping stuff with snipping tools, driving to get speaker boxes and hustling to get some cash and he gets your respect...
> 
> 
> But I talk about one score on eBay and I'm bragging!?!?!? Explain that to me???
> 
> JAX I don’t think you are really being fair, we are both talking about the same thing. But its OK. My goal was not to brag but to inform how easy it can be to sell on eBay and make some money. Obviously I don’t get rich doing this but if it makes the hobby we love so much less expensive (while treating people fairly) allowing us to more easily enjoy it then I'm for it. Isn’t that the essence of this forum, to help out fellow members with anything concerning car audio?
> 
> I do actually use a good bit of what I buy but most of it I don’t. But as for this particular flip honestly I probably will keep the stuff anyway. I would rather have this stuff for the insane price I found than the money
> 
> It seems that that DIYMA members are obviously very informed car stereo users but we as a group can come off as sounding entitled as far as car stereo deals. For example can you really tell me why members would not buy from me because I said I bought this stuff so cheap? May be a psychological issue but consider the prices that I could sell this stuff for I think the vultures would forget my cost !!!
> 
> How many members for example buy stuff at employee accommodation from a work/employment relationship and then resell it often times for more than for what they have into it? I have...
> 
> If DIYMA members do not buy because as your saying "I'm bragging"...well that’s their choice I guess. I personally have sold stuff to a few members that have found me on eBay and have been plenty happy with my prices, product, integrity and shipping and I would think....me! So after 14 years of selling on there I wont be stopping anytime soon. It would be too bad for me if I don’t sell on here but honestly, I did not plan on it anyway. DIYMA is a VERY SPECIALIZED community market so most members don’t end up being my customers. We both know that the average DIYMA member is not paying what the typical market price is...they are waiting for the below market deal. Heck we have forums just to advertise that purpose (Craigslist, Ebay auction links, Hot links, etc...)!!!!
> 
> So again I say why am I the criminal because I made some money from someone’s ignorance about the value of some car stereo electronics in the marketplace.....?
> 
> ...I mean what should I do....not buy the stuff and turn down a $3K opportunity (while maintaining high integrity and ethics)....C’mon Jax that’s crazy! I know for a fact that everyone is happy with the deal I made...! My seller personally told me so!
> 
> If telling everyone on here risks my future sales on here then I have to question why would I even consider selling on here anyway? Then maybe we are not the community we advertise ourselves to be....and that would be sad for all of us!
> 
> But I do sincerely thank for your opinion and I'll consider how I approach my future sales because of you...


ok maybe that was unfair . let me state the difference in what I saw for example between you and trucker's post.

Trucker bought and sold mupltiple items and made somewhere in the neighborhood of $30-50 

you stated you bought some stuff and was selling it for $2-300 more.

now there is nothing wrong with it but its not something I would go around telling everyone as then it plants a seed in peoples heads that you go so much markup in your stuff that its overpriced.

it might be worth what you want, but just the fact that it may be in a persons mind that you didnt have that much invested is enough to make some people not buy.

your getting close to Andy and others territory then.

I have seen you on ebay . never bought it cause it was more than I was willing to pay but that is just my opinion.

my point is not that its wrong to buy and flip something. I just wouldnt be telling everyone how much you made off it. 

little less on the details. 

I should have explained a little more what I meant.

I have a rep for buying and selling but I assure you. right now I have only 3 amps. 2 in car 1 is for sale. thats it. 

I have wanted 98% of any amp I have tried. less than 2% of them have I bought to sell. 

I know most think I have a room full of stuff but I dont.


----------



## daudioman

JAX said:


> ok maybe that was unfair . let me state the difference in what I saw for example between you and trucker's post.
> 
> Trucker bought and sold mupltiple items and made somewhere in the neighborhood of $30-50
> 
> you stated you bought some stuff and was selling it for $2-300 more.
> 
> now there is nothing wrong with it but its not something I would go around telling everyone as then it plants a seed in peoples heads that you go so much markup in your stuff that its overpriced.
> 
> it might be worth what you want, but just the fact that it may be in a persons mind that you didnt have that much invested is enough to make some people not buy.
> 
> your getting close to Andy and others territory then.
> 
> I have seen you on ebay . never bought it cause it was more than I was willing to pay but that is just my opinion.
> 
> my point is not that its wrong to buy and flip something. I just wouldnt be telling everyone how much you made off it.
> 
> little less on the details.
> 
> I should have explained a little more what I meant.
> 
> I have a rep for buying and selling but I assure you. right now I have only 3 amps. 2 in car 1 is for sale. thats it.
> 
> I have wanted 98% of any amp I have tried. less than 2% of them have I bought to sell.
> 
> I know most think I have a room full of stuff but I dont.


Point well taken JAX.., now I understand...and you are absolutely right. People are less likely to buy if they know what someone else has in a product. But I was hoping (if I decide to sell this stuff...which I doubt) that people because of its rarity they would overlook that and buy anyway. I think it could go either way...just depends on how much someone wants this stuff...

I try to buy stuff that is NIB or EXTREMELY Mint and complete...that way it keeps its value. Plus my installing/fab skills are not the best, which is what attracted me to this forum to begin with (I need to improve desperately on that part of my car audio life...)

Again my excitement in my post and in for could be construed as me "over profiting" on my sales. Although I never really looked at it that way. I just sell for what the market wants IMHO. And honestly I cant say that I use even 75% of all my items. Some I do buy explicitly to resell. 

BUT....

I unlike a previously mentioned seller currently on eBay, would not currently sell $300 MA amp for $1499 OBO and act like I am giving a deal...now that's crazy!!! :laugh: :surprised: I mean he acts like people cant look up stuff on there and research what stuff will sell for in a given period. Now that is VERY insulting.

Your opinion on my prices is what I expected...and I respect that. And that is what I was trying to say earlier. Most DIYMAers are bargain hunters and they are patient also. Hence that's why they (we, us) can find the awesome deals! Nothing wrong with that. In fact that's why I like it here...help me find stuff at great prices and for the most part my experience getting involved has been nothing but positive!


My gaffe is like the prisoner that has to tell someone his story because its killing him to keep it to himself!! Funny thing is I sincerely am about to list a bunch of stuff on eBay but it wont be this lot of stuff. I'm going to do a "sell off" to pay for this purchase and keep it all. Again in 14 years on eBay will never see a sale of stuff like I found this come up again. It was pure luck on my part!

Thanks for your opinion and now that we have totally taken over this thread maybe we should rename it too!!!!!!!!!!!!! :laugh:


----------



## rommelrommel

I think another very important distinction is that Andy is a liar and would steal from his grandmother given the chance. 

If you're honest about what you're selling and someone wants to pay your price, what's the problem?


----------



## JAX

rommelrommel said:


> I think another very important distinction is that Andy is a liar and would steal from his grandmother given the chance.
> 
> If you're honest about what you're selling and someone wants to pay your price, what's the problem?



I dont care what anyone does and I shouldnt even had said anything here.

I have gotten flamed by someone else here for trying to sell a new set of speakers that were rare for $25 more than I paid. I saw it as I took the risk not them so I should be able to sell it and not just break even. 

I wasnt saying its wrong. just saying not to broadcast it that is all.

but anyone including Andy can do what they want. doestn mean it will sell. although he had a ESX that went for decent price the other day.


----------



## truckerfte

There IS risk on the buy. I've got my fair share of broken stuff to show for it. I have to build that risk into my mark-up. And that is what I offer, a low risk to my customers. 95% of my sales are local, to people who see the equipment in action before they buy. And the stuff I sell on here is tested, used in my car, and retested before I ship it off. Its vital for me to protect my reputation as a seller. 

Yes guys will whine if they think you make a buck off of it. They are free to cruise the net, find their own deals, and take their own risk of getting burned. If you score a good deal, and can sell at a fair market value, there shouldn't be an issue. And again, it depends on the market you are selling in. 

I am in no way calling him out, but here is a good example. One guy has had an older mtx amp that has been listed here for a while. Frankly, its not likely to sell HERE at his asking price. And he would get raped on it on ebay. But its a great buy for some kid just getting started. I could get his asking price for it in a day or two with no effort. Its all about knowing your market.

If I can sell a kid a great system for a fraction of the price of the big box stores, with better equipment, and make a buck, how is that anything but a win/win?


----------

