# premade effeciency?



## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

I'm looking to add a setup to my new apartment, but things aren't going so good. My biggest issue is simply effeciency. Call me a SPL junkie, whatever, anyway, I like my stuff dynamic. 88db/1w/m drivers simply don't do it for me, they never really sound real. Any system that ever straight up wow'ed me was at least in the mid 90's? Most of the home audio I seem to find that caters to a high effeciency market has 2 problems. One, it's either nowhere near audiophile quality (klipsch) or is 30 years old (jbl). Does any major speaker manufacturer use drivers from companies like tad, phl, audax, b&C, selenium, EV,etc? I know SQ and high effeciency can go together for less than a $160,000 price point. (magico,etc) Anyway, since this is a diy site I'm also open to any kits. I simply don't have the tools to do full on fabrication work right now, if I did I think I'd be making my own speakers right now because this is ridiculous! However, putting together a kit would be doable, or simply finding someones used premade for sale.

Anyway, the closest I've found so far is the Pinnacle Classic Gold Aerogels, which I'm 99% sure uses an audax mid.

Size isn't a awfully big concern as long, up to the size of a fridge is fine. Mostly listening to 2 channel music, but will probably add extra channels anyway eventually. They will most likely end up in the corners of a room, so anything that likes being corner loaded is plus.


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## s2groove (May 18, 2007)

Have you ever tried to get some reference 3a mm de cappo's? fairly efficient speaker (92db). I love my set. You can get them used off of audiogon for a little over $1k a pair. There are tons of reviews for them. What price range were you looking for to build or buy speakers that were efficient?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

92 dB isn't high efficiency.

What's your budget?

Classic Audio Reproductions uses TAD drivers....but they aren't cheap.

I have Edgarhorn Slimline horns in my apartment (100dB efficient), and they sound good.

Basically without knowing how much you want to spend, what kind of electronics you have, and how much room you have, it will be hard to start pointing you in general direction,

Triangle reportably has some nice commercial high efficiency speakers.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> 92 dB isn't high efficiency.
> 
> What's your budget?
> 
> ...


I havent' purchased anything yet, I'm too careful with money. I usually like to get a good idea of my overall design before i purchase anything. The listening room itself is fairly small 9x15x8 or so. Budget for the mains, I'd like to stay under 2k if possible and am willing to buy used. I dont' care that much about lfe since I've got several subs sitting around collecting dust as is.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

http://tyleracoustics.com/pro_dynamics.html


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Maybe check out Pi Loudspeakers?


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## dan_f (Feb 6, 2008)

Ask yourself why are you so concerned about efficiency in an apartment? Power is cheap. The sound is what counts. I work with 101db 1W/1M speakers all day in the pro world but the technology we use means the sound does not come together for 20-30 feet. For near field listening just add more power if you want to annoy the neighbors.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Well, HE speakers do have a more live sound to them vs. low efficiency no matter how much power you put to them.


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## dan_f (Feb 6, 2008)

High efficiency speakers are generally horn loaded or bass reflex. The sound pattern is not suitable for near field listening. In a small room the tonal quality is poor, the frequency response is rough and there is a bad reverberation problem. I design powered loudspeakers for the professional sound industry. I do loads of listening to HE boxes and tons of measurements with modern tools like EASE-RA and for home listening the smaller sealed box cannot be beat for smoother high qiuaality sound. If you want to listen to sound like in most clubs where they are using long projection boxes in a small room, and put up with the distortion you get that is your right. But the HE boxes are designed for theatres, churches and other big rooms. To use them in a small room will indeed give you SPL and if all you want is to damage your hearing and annoy the neighbors, fine. Just do not try to consider it to be audiophile grade sound unless you can sit 20 feet away.

Dan


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

dan_f said:


> High efficiency speakers are generally horn loaded or bass reflex. The sound pattern is not suitable for near field listening. In a small room the tonal quality is poor, the frequency response is rough and there is a bad reverberation problem. I design powered loudspeakers for the professional sound industry. I do loads of listening to HE boxes and tons of measurements with modern tools like EASE-RA and for home listening the smaller sealed box cannot be beat for smoother high qiuaality sound. If you want to listen to sound like in most clubs where they are using long projection boxes in a small room, and put up with the distortion you get that is your right. But the HE boxes are designed for theatres, churches and other big rooms. To use them in a small room will indeed give you SPL and if all you want is to damage your hearing and annoy the neighbors, fine. Just do not try to consider it to be audiophile grade sound unless you can sit 20 feet away.
> 
> Dan


Tell that to Klipsch.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> Tell that to Klipsch.


And Meyer, JBL/Urei, TAD/pioneer, Augsburger, etc.


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## dan_f (Feb 6, 2008)

Actually I have told this to Klipsch. Klipsch speakers are very efficient but their horn loaded cabinets do not sound good near field because of the massive phase shift caused by the horn and bass driver being too far apart for near field listening. Plus, Klipsch often mount their horns from the rear of the front panel resulting in a flare discontinuity at the mouth. This results in about 5% to 10% additional THD at the high end. Too see horns done right look at the Complex Conic horns at www.renkus-heinz.com. 

While there is a lot of science behind it, what it comes down to is that sound from instruments with round flares, cannot be reproduced correctly from horns with sharp angles in them.

And do note that horns are meant for long distance projection. Unless, that is, they are too small to be decently efficient.

I've been in this business for a very long time, and I have seen it all, and when it comes down to near field listening in a home environment, for clean, clear sound it is hard to beat an acoustic suspension box with dome tweeters. Yes, their efficiency is low, but power is so cheap these days. I routinely put in 1000 W ICE Power modules (I am an ICE Power OEM) into speakers. The smallest one we use is 200 Watts. And my car amp designs are generally 500W amps because you don't save much money making them smaller. The need for high efficiency at home is a product of the times where 10 Watts was a lot of power. 

High efficiency speakers have a place, in large rooms if you are looking for good sound. If all you want is loud and don't care about the sound quality, then use a horn loaded cabinet in a small room. You'll get loud. Goodness knows you can. In our speaker torture room, which is about 10' X 12' I life test speakers with SPLs in the room well over 140db, and these are single boxes with single amps. Can't measure higher as the microphones in the SPL measuring equipment bottoms out and where sometimes it seems we are getting close to messing with the space time continuum. But sound good. No. We're just life testing the stuff we put in places like the Devil Rays Stadium and places like that.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

We're not disputing your findings (sort of). There's a ton of guys here with comparable years of experience with HE systems including Chad and Eric Stevens.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Generally for horns and compression drivers, you want to be atleast 1 wavelength away from the lowest frequency the horn will play. So it is hard to have nearfield midbass horns...lol.


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rf-83.aspx

power handling	250W RMS / 1000W Peak
sensitivity	100dB @ 2.83V / 1m


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

It's also VERY dependent on what you call nearfeild, for me it's the depth of the mixing console, for others it's across a small room.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

chad said:


> It's also VERY dependent on what you call nearfeild, for me it's the depth of the mixing console, for others it's across a small room.


It gets even more complicated/confusing when you are trying to compare nearfield vs direct field.

TO the OP, I know you want pre-made efficiency but why are you not looking at arrays? With your budget it's right up your alley.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

<- doesn't understand why people think Klipsch is all that.


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

How about listening at a distance 2m in a living room, very respectable.

Let's assume you're interested in a rather high continuous output level of 90dB at 2m, which requires 96dB at 1m. Now we'll need some headroom as to avoid heavy clipping of transients, but how much is enough? With Classical music, you can easily run into 20dB+ of dynamic range. 

With all that in mind, the speakers will have to provide 116dB at 1m to avoid clipping transients...pretty sobering when you factor in the low SPL of traditional high fidelity drivers and baffle step (~80-86dB). Can your midrange drivers handle 1kw+ without falling apart (serious power compression and/or poor distortion performance)?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> <- doesn't understand why people think Klipsch is all that.


Although I got my first "Hi-Fi lesson" on a set of Klipschorns I have to agree, But I'd love to have a set of beat-up la-scala's to tear the garage up with.... about all they are good for IMHO :blush:


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## havok20222 (Sep 5, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> <- doesn't understand why people think Klipsch is all that.


I don't think they are "all that". Not a huge fan. However, for a non-diy speaker, they are an great value for what you get for the cash. I hear their new high end babies are supposed to be great.... but at $20k+ per pair they should be.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

If you don't have a ton of room or a ton of money, the Edgarhorn Slimlines are pretty nice speakers. Not the prettiest things in the world, but they do sound good and are 100 dB efficient. I have set of them and upgraded the tweeters to Beyma CP21fs and they are even better. You will need a sub or 2 since they really don't do much below 70.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

What about a horn like this 
http://www.usspeaker.com/HORNS.htm it's the DDS CFD ENG 1-90 PRO - 1" 90°x 90° WAVEGUIDE HORN


They claim it's for nearfield listening, but I'l admit I've never heard of the brand, any PA guys wanna chime in. Something like this coupled with a few normal HE cone midranges/midbasses would work well, correct? If not I guess ribbons would be an alternative as they are effecient and not horn loaded.


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## Tommythecat (Apr 6, 2006)

That horn has been used by a few people, but I can never find anything beyond what the manufacturer has put out in the past. But it would probably be well paired to a 10" midrange and 15/18" midbass and some form of multi-driver subwoofer system.

And ribbons, while efficient, cannot produce the max spl that horns can. There is no comparison.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Tommythecat said:


> That horn has been used by a few people, but I can never find anything beyond what the manufacturer has put out in the past. But it would probably be well paired to a 10" midrange and 15/18" midbass and some form of multi-driver subwoofer system.
> 
> And ribbons, while efficient, cannot produce the max spl that horns can. There is no comparison.


You do know that ribbons are used in pro sound applications, correct?


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Tommythecat said:


> That horn has been used by a few people, but I can never find anything beyond what the manufacturer has put out in the past. But it would probably be well paired to a 10" midrange and 15/18" midbass and some form of multi-driver subwoofer system.
> 
> And ribbons, while efficient, cannot produce the max spl that horns can. There is no comparison.


ehh, sounds close to what I was planning actually, if I end up saying screw it and building something myself anyway.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Emerald Physics used that horn on their speaker from RMAF that everyone raved about. That, a 1" compression driver and 2 15s OB with built in amps and DEQX for processing.

That is a really nice horn for home use.


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