# 2"-3" midrange/full range speaker for sail panels?



## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Any recommendations on 2" or 3" full range/midrange drivers for sail panel install? I've looked through them all on Madisound and Parts Express, just wondering if anybody has much experience. I know that Fostek driver seems to be the buzz right now ...

I'd like to keep it around $100 or so, but could extend some if there is a particular piece of value ...


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

infiniti23 said:


> Any recommendations on 2" or 3" full range/midrange drivers for sail panel install? I've looked through them all on Madisound and Parts Express, just wondering if anybody has much experience. I know that Fostek driver seems to be the buzz right now ...
> 
> I'd like to keep it around $100 or so, but could extend some if there is a particular piece of value ...


I think $100 pretty reasonable. What are your space contraints? What car is this going in? If you are looking for a TRUE full range driver I would tell you to look at Tang Band, Mark Audio, CSS (creative sound solutions), and Fostex. They are the manufacturers that really seem to have a thing for full range drivers. I work with Mark Audio and CSS so if you need any specific info on their stuff let me know.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Doesn't have to be full range, I already have Dynaudio MD102 tweets installed ...

Car is G35, sail panel mount, not going to be able to get much of an enclosure there, maybe 4" x 4" x 3" ....

Needs to play down to 250 or so ...


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

How about this one from Tang Band ...

Parts-Express.com:Tang Band W3-1364SA 3" Bamboo Cone Driver | tangband tb neo newband tangband-41108


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## dashan (Apr 7, 2009)

I may also need the same mid speakers.
Infiniti23, what are your mid bass speakers?


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Given the sail panel of a 2003 G35 sedan, I don't think you'll get enough airspace to really push a 2-3" driver down in the 250 range with a lot of authority. Your Dyns have the ability to play up to 500 quite well and without beaming, you can probably play around in that range and see what works best. 

No, I don't own a G35, no, I never have, no, I've never installed anything in a G35, yes, I do sell G35 parts, yes, I know them pretty well.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Just for clarification, you’re running Dyn 180’s (or 182’s) for midbass, and the 102’s for tweeters, correct?
I know I’m probably really going to get flamed for this, and to be honest, I hate even saying it because I know the backlash I’m going to get, but you’ve got some very nice midbasses/tweeters going in… why not expand your budget a bit more to fit something a bit ‘higher end’. I’m not saying that $100 budget won’t work; certainly not saying that. But, I guess it’s somewhat implied. 
I’d recommend the scan 12m’s but they’re a 4.5” driver when it’s said and done and almost triple the budget. What about the dyn midranges? 

/is going to regret even posting the above



Is anyone aware of anything peerless is currently offering that might fit the bill here?
Anything by focal? Seems I’ve read or seen somewhere that they make a nice 3” midrange… dunno if it’s going to fit that $100 budget, though.


Also, do you have any constraints that would limit how you’re going to install these (ie: stealth, so they can’t stick out past the pillars x amount)? Are you more keen on trying some on/off axis, or are you willing to experiment? Obviously the latter would be recommended, but some folks are really against protruding dash installs which often would rule out anything on-axis.
I don't know the inside of the g35 at all, so I don't know what you have to work with.



PS: If you’d like, I’ll let you hear the scans in my car, no tuning/eq/etc so you can get a feel for them, if you haven’t heard them already. Again, I believe they’re probably totally out of the running for you, but just figured I’d offer it up.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

I'd put any of those drivers up against more expensive stuff....without a doubt


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

At the moment the Peerless 830986/87 3" for 15 bux each at madisound is a deal hard to beat. This is one great sounding midrange. Also for 10 bux more each the Fountek FR88-ex is a slighter better option. The fountek plays higher and a little lower cleaner then the Peerless, just seem to be a little more control and well behaved. 

I have some inside info on how to make the Fountek slightly warmer sounding if you like. At these price these two are hard to beat and yes I have test both.

Fountek FR88-EX 3" Full Range from Madisound

Peerless 830986, 3" Full Range from Madisound

Peerless 830987 3" Full Range 8 ohm from Madisound


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

Here-I-Come said:


> At the moment the Peerless 830986/87 3" for 15 bux each at madisound is a deal hard to beat. This is one great sounding midrange. Also for 10 bux more each the Fountek FR88-ex is a slighter better option. The fountek plays higher and a little lower cleaner then the Peerless, just seem to be a little more control and well behaved.
> 
> I have some inside info on how to make the Fountek slightly warmer sounding if you like. At these price these two are hard to beat and yes I have test both.
> 
> ...


Sounds great, but power handling is 10 watts, and the sensitivity is 84db, so they won't get very loud in a car environment before destroying themselves.

An array of them would be nice though.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Foglght said:


> Sounds great, but power handling is 10 watts, and the sensitivity is 84db, so they won't get very loud in a car environment before destroying themselves.


If I am not mistaken, most power handling figures are done using a full-range signal. I recall reading something about this last week, but can't find the thread. So yeah, sending a 20Hz-20KHz signal to these would implode them. 

But with playing music and using a proper crossover so as not to let the speaker distort, one can safely use a bit more power than that number suggests.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

dawgdan said:


> If I am not mistaken, most power handling figures are done using a full-range signal. I recall reading something about this last week, but can't find the thread. So yeah, sending a 20Hz-20KHz signal to these would implode them.
> 
> But with playing music and using a proper crossover so as not to let the speaker distort, one can safely use a bit more power than that number suggests.


I would hope they don't use a full range signal for something that has a 90hz fs to give power handling. Maybe they do though.

Lots of these specs are clear as mud. 

Then again, you would have to determine at what point the speaker could handle more than the published RMS rating, because many people use pink noise to test/tune systems.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/38490-more-tinkering-santa-fe.html


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Just for clarification, you’re running Dyn 180’s (or 182’s) for midbass, and the 102’s for tweeters, correct?
> I know I’m probably really going to get flamed for this, and to be honest, I hate even saying it because I know the backlash I’m going to get, but you’ve got some very nice midbasses/tweeters going in… why not expand your budget a bit more to fit something a bit ‘higher end’. I’m not saying that $100 budget won’t work; certainly not saying that. But, I guess it’s somewhat implied.
> I’d recommend the scan 12m’s but they’re a 4.5” driver when it’s said and done and almost triple the budget. What about the dyn midranges?
> 
> ...


I definitely hope nobody flames you. I appreciate you open mind, especially in your install ...

I actually just sold a pair of Scan 12m's. Love the driver, just no way it would fit in that sail panel. After moving the Dyn 102's into the A-pillar, and loving the result, I want to do the same with the midrange ...

The only thing I am not willing to do is cut the dash. I can build the sail panel out and up a little bit. I absolutely will not have the drivers on-axis. I'm really not that picky honestly to where they have to be positions, well, "perfectly" ...

Also, the $100 budget is more of a starting point. I don't know how midrange mounted in the sail panel of the G is going to go. I guess the best way to put it is I don't want to spend alot of money until I am certain this is how I am going to go. A pair of these $20 drivers may be a great starting point to see if I will like it ...

The Dyn 142 are on my radar, but they are a little bigger. I wish I could have found a way to get those Scan 12m in those panels ....


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

infiniti23 said:


> Also, the $100 budget is more of a starting point. I don't know how midrange mounted in the sail panel of the G is going to go. I guess the best way to put it is I don't want to spend alot of money until I am certain this is how I am going to go. A pair of these $20 drivers may be a great starting point to see if I will like it ...


Great point, and completely understood.

In that case, what about vifa tg9? I had them for a bit… think you need some good power, but would be a good starting point.
I then went to the hybrid L3’s. I’m not a hybrid fan, just because it isn’t my liking, but you may like ‘em. If you can find a set of L3’s used, you might be able to implement those. I think they are a step above the tg9’s.

The hybrid L4’s are out of the question if the scans are, due to size. The l3’s are a bit smaller. 
If you’re interested in the hybrid L3’s, hit up Scott Buwalda on here. He’s the company owner. I believe he was selling some b-stock a while back for pretty dang cheap… I’ve actually seen pairs of them for $100 on here a couple times, iirc.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Here-I-Come said:


> At the moment the Peerless 830986/87 3" for 15 bux each at madisound is a deal hard to beat. This is one great sounding midrange. Also for 10 bux more each the Fountek FR88-ex is a slighter better option. The fountek plays higher and a little lower cleaner then the Peerless, just seem to be a little more control and well behaved.
> 
> I have some inside info on how to make the Fountek slightly warmer sounding if you like. At these price these two are hard to beat and yes I have test both.
> 
> ...


Do you have a review of the Fountek posted?


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

kfish323 said:


> Do you have a review of the Fountek posted?


This is what I am wondering. The Fountek has an F3 of 150 in 46 cubic inches, which is a very small box ....

Very interested in this one ...


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Foglght said:


> Sounds great, but power handling is 10 watts, and the sensitivity is 84db, so they won't get very loud in a car environment before destroying themselves.
> 
> An array of them would be nice though.


Dawgdan is correct. 

Do not let the 10 watt ratting fool you. It is done fullrange with highpass crossover. I tested it in a .75 liter enclosure with 75 watts rms from SS MC300 (so more then likely a little more the 75 watts rms) crossover from 200hz upto 7khz and it did have a problem with it. I don't have a review post on the Fountek yet, working on some other things first. Going to mod it first.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

Here-I-Come said:


> Dawgdan is correct.
> 
> Do not let the 10 watt ratting fool you. It is done fullrange with highpass crossover. I tested it in a .75 liter enclosure with 75 watts rms from SS MC300 (so more then likely a little more the 75 watts rms) crossover from 200hz upto 7khz and it did have a problem with it. I don't have a review post on the Fountek yet, working on some other things first. Going to mod it first.


I'm not trying to beat this into the ground, but did you test to see if you were actually putting 75 watts to it? I mean, I have technically 115W going to my Hybrid L3's off my Diamond D700, but I only give it around 1V input to the amp. 

Either people are screwing with customers in power handling, or something isn't adding up. 

Sure you can overpower it, but the heat should build significantly in the coil and overheat that sucker so it would go into power compression pretty quickly. At least, that's what I read around here.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Zaph tested the FR88-EX no comment yet, but all data is up.


Zaph|Audio


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

why sail panels? you need to minimizing PLD's and providing the correct airspace for any driver.. and you won't accomplish either with that placement


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

the other hated guy said:


> why sail panels? you need to minimizing PLD's and providing the correct airspace for any driver.. and you won't accomplish either with that placement


There are many, many, many A-pillar / sail panel designs out there that have yielded good results for people, not to mention dash mounts. I'm not looking to win world championships ...

I'm really liking the 2.5" full range Peerless drivers on Madisound. 

This one:

Peerless 830985 2.5" Full Range 4 ohm from Madisound

Has an F3 of 150 hz in a 30 cubic inch box. I could do that in sail panel. What ye all think? Should I give it a shot?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

infiniti23 said:


> There are many, many, many A-pillar / sail panel designs out there that have yielded good results for people. I'm not looking to win world championships ...
> 
> I'm really liking the 2.5" full range Peerless drivers on Madisound.
> 
> ...


In that setup you probably _will be_ limited to the published power handling spec. Note on the pdf for their drivers that they state a 150Hz 4th order highpass for the power rating.

Edit: That one is 100Hz though.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> In that setup you probably _will be_ limited to the published power handling spec. Note on the pdf for their drivers that they state a 150Hz 4th order highpass for the power rating.
> 
> Edit: That one is 100Hz though.


Eeeek ...

Here's a question. What are the inherent problems with, persay, having an A-pillar mounted tweeter and a kick panel mounted mid range driver?


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

infiniti23 said:


> Eeeek ...
> 
> Here's a question. What are the inherent problems with, persay, having an A-pillar mounted tweeter and a kick panel mounted mid range driver?



Not much as long as your midrange can play from about 250-400hz - 6khz without any bad side effects. But if I was going to go to the kicks I would use a 3" or larger midrange.


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

now I know why I stopped even logging into this **** train


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

the other hated guy said:


> now I know why I stopped even logging into this **** train


So what was that all about Randy?


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

the other hated guy said:


> now I know why I stopped even logging into this **** train


Good, you can leave again.

Not everybody has the opportunity you have. Many people have to make compromises. 

It's fine if you make suggestions on a better way. However, you don't do it that way. You come in here with your chest all puffed out proclaiming your way is the only way. 

There's a way to get your point across with coming off as a douche, but you don't really care, and for that we really don't care if you ever come around. I don't remember seeing any threads lamenting the fact that you weren't posting regularly here. 

Go back to CA.com. They're much more mature over there.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

Here-I-Come said:


> So what was that all about Randy?


sand..............vagina...............they got mixed up together.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> In that setup you probably _will be_ limited to the published power handling spec. Note on the pdf for their drivers that they state a 150Hz 4th order highpass for the power rating.
> 
> Edit: That one is 100Hz though.


Maybe this is not an easy question to answer, but any guesses how much power it could handle crossed at 250 or maybe even 350?


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Possible to use 2 3" full range drivers on each side in the kicks? I only ask because alot of these DIY drivers are 8-ohm and I figure I could maximize output wiring a pair in parallel ...


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## invinsible (May 4, 2009)

Hi, I am as well looking out for 2 3" midrange may be dome or so for ease of installation. Have a Dotech Ovation 6" comps and I plan to run the woofer of it active and than add the midrange to its crossover (passive) along with the Tweeter. I have a clarion 785 so will go with 3 way with 6" woofers active, sub active, midrange and tweets active via passive xover.
What are your views on Cadence ZRS-2M dome midrange ? Anyone tried these. 
I also came across these ES-02 - CDT Audio 2" Extended Range Mid tweeter Drivers, really leaning towards these. As I will be using them with xover.
How good are these ? Anyone heard these ? 
And than there's DLS iridium 2.5/3" Midrange ? Read somewhere they can play down from 315hz ? Hows the sound from these ? 
Sorry don't mean to Hijack this thread just thought of putting this question since we share the same interest.


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## 5xkmw (Mar 1, 2009)

I've got the Dayton RS-100-4's mounted in pods just under the pull on my truck. They blend very well with my infinitys mounted in the stock door location. Definitely brought up the sound stage.


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## Crawling Chaos (Jan 26, 2009)

I bougth a pair of Peerless 830970 (4 ohm) for my A pillars, but they are not installed yet. I have tested them in an improvised enclosure and they sound fine for me. I am about to finish my install probably on July, when I will be able to point out if they realy sound fine.

[]'s
Crawling Chaos


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

How critical is enclosure size for one of these smaller drivers? Persay, if the box is undersized and there is a boost, will the boost matter if I and crossing over much higher than the spike?

If there were maybe 3 dB boost at 125 hz, and I cut it at 250 hz where it's flat, will it matter?


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

FWIW ...I'm looking at doing a MTM or a MMTMM with the Peerless 830970 from PartsExpress. I will be using the B&G Neo 3 planars or the TBI tweeters. I'm just looking to get them to play down to 220hz @ 18db if possible. And have the kickpanels play 100-220hz.

Parts-Express.comeerless P830970 2" Full Range Driver 4 Ohm | Peerless P830983 2" Full Range Driver tymphany vifa danish speaker technology dst lat250

This may be an exercise in futility ...but I've been bored lately.

>^..^<


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## invinsible (May 4, 2009)

Guys anyone here has a clue on these 2" Dome Cadence ZRS-2M midrange or the CDT audio 2" ES-02 extended midrange? I am really leaning on these. 

Can someone help!


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

invinsible said:


> Guys anyone here has a clue on these 2" Dome Cadence ZRS-2M midrange or the CDT audio 2" ES-02 extended midrange? I am really leaning on these.
> 
> Can someone help!


Got a secret on the CDT 2". Wanna know what it is?

Parts-Express.com:Tang Band W2-852SH 2" Shielded Driver | full range driver 2" woofer extended range driver tang band tb speakers tangband-41108

Look around on ebay. You can find that TB full range for under $10.00 each.

I know nothing of the Cadence. I'd have to see it before I believe that it's capable of the low end it's boasting without significant distortion, and/or really low power handling.


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## infiniti23 (Dec 4, 2008)

Just info on this thread, seems like a wide variety of DIY 2"-4" drivers out there that you couldn't go wrong with from Peerless, to Tang Band, Dayton, etc ...


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## invinsible (May 4, 2009)

MiniVanMan said:


> Got a secret on the CDT 2". Wanna know what it is?


Surely, now I hope whatever it is, hope its positive.
Will these work in passive on passive xover from morel ovation along with their tweets, hp at 400 or so? will use its woofer in active.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

MiniVanMan said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/38490-more-tinkering-santa-fe.html


Parts-Express.comeerless P830970 2" Full Range Driver 4 Ohm | Peerless P830983 2" Full Range Driver tymphany vifa danish speaker technology dst lat250


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

invinsible said:


> Surely, now I hope whatever it is, hope its positive.
> Will these work in passive on passive xover from morel ovation along with their tweets, hp at 400 or so? will use its woofer in active.


The secret is the CDT 2" is the TB 2", just modified a bit. 

You won't get a good 400 hz out of them.


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## AudioBob (May 21, 2007)

I have a pair of the CDT 2" speakers that I purchased with the intention of running a 3-way with an 8" woofer. I currently have one of them as my center channel running off of a AudioControl ESP-3 and a two channels of a JL 300/4 bridged (150 watts rms) crossed over at 500Hz @ 12db/octave. I don't think that they will have any problem with 400Hz but you might need to run using a steeper slope.

I was thinking about putting these in my kick panels running 400Hz and up along with a pair of 8" woofers in the doors. I have a pair of Seas Neo Textiles in my sail panels. The major difference that I see in the CDT is that there is a coating on the speaker that is most likely for weather protection and they have a built-in grill and mounting hardware that make installation in a car simple. You need to put them in a small enclosure like a 2" PVC cap in order for them to perform well and handle any amount of power.


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## invinsible (May 4, 2009)

AudioBob said:


> You need to put them in a small enclosure like a 2" PVC cap in order for them to perform well and handle any amount of power.


Thanks for the info. Really helpful. I can build that 2" PVC cap for them. What is the required size ? How deep it's suppose to be ? Hows the SQ from them ? 

I have a Clarion DXZ785USB and I don't think it can do more than 18db slope. Would that be fine?
My issue is I will be running them on the Morel Dotech ovation xover which has cut of for mids at 3200hz with 6db slope. After which the tweeter takes on. I suppose there shouldn't be much audible difference between going 300 to 400hz. If the CDT's can do even 400hz comfortably I will be fine with it as below that the midbass will take car as the placed more little high up that the bottom low of the door and it's a hatchback. The Passive set which would be along with the Morel Tweeter would get the power from the Alpine Amp MRP F550 close to 80-90 RMS. I guess they should be fine at this output doing 400hz up. 


I read somewhere on the forum that *DLS iridium 3"* can perform from 315hz, just that they are more like 4". 
The reason I look for these as I don't think I will be modifying the A piller for the pods or something but would just place them on the dash may be in PVC cap facing more like eachother.

How good are the *Dayton RS52AN 2"* Dome Midrange in SQ, these come enclosed? How low can they get ?


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## AudioBob (May 21, 2007)

Just go to your local hardware store and get a regular 2" pvc cap and that is fine as far as volume. They are not too particular on the volume, just need an enclosure more than anything.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

ItalynStylion said:


> I think $100 pretty reasonable. What are your space contraints? What car is this going in? If you are looking for a TRUE full range driver I would tell you to look at Tang Band, Mark Audio, CSS (creative sound solutions), and Fostex. They are the manufacturers that really seem to have a thing for full range drivers. I work with Mark Audio and CSS so if you need any specific info on their stuff let me know.


Hi, I'm very interested on the Alpire line from Mark Audio. They look very nice.
Do you have experience with them?

I like the Alpire 6, by specs. The CHR 70 is cheaper and have a different, more conventional design.

The Alpires has very low mass and no spider. (like a mid dome?).
The power handling specs are very low but I'm sure they should get loud.

They offer a combo, Alpire 5 and SDX7 midbass. I use the Mpyre65 for midbass, a very similar driver.

How they compare to a Legatia L3?
Thanks!


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## dashan (Apr 7, 2009)

MiniVanMan said:


> The secret is the CDT 2" is the TB 2", just modified a bit.
> 
> You won't get a good 400 hz out of them.


How to modified the TBs? Thanks


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...zaphs-test-fountek-fr88-ex-3-wide-bander.html


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

Hernan said:


> The Alpires has very low mass and no spider. (like a mid dome?).
> The power handling specs are very low but I'm sure they should get loud.
> 
> How they compare to a Legatia L3?
> Thanks!


Still not sure how they can get loud if they have low spl sensitivity AND low power handling?

Can anyone actually explain this yet? 

I mean this makes sense:

Recommended Minimum Crossover Frequency
200 Hz at 24 dB/octave highpass
Pnom Rated Power Input (No Crossover)
25 watts (AES Standard)
Pmax Rated Power Input (No Crossover)
50 watts (AES Standard)
Pmax (With Recommended Minimum Crossover)
125 watts
Frequency Range
129 Hz - 10,000 Hz, +/- 3 dB
Sensitivity
85 dB at 1 watt/1meter

So for max listening level at 106db, 125 watts with a proper crossover for THAT speaker.

106 isn't all that much and for a speaker that totes a 10W rating......much less the 125 watt rating the L3 boasts here with proper crossover. Now we have differing opinions on how that number is extrapolated. 

Seems silly and a waste of time to buy drivers rated for 10 watts, in an environment that requires a lot of dynamic headroom to be effective, especially if the driver you are looking at has ~10-12db of dyanmic range. 

Basically, you are all just guessing. 

Zaph doesn't test these things in cars.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Foglght said:


> So for max listening level at 106db, 125 watts with a proper crossover for THAT speaker.


I know I don't like listening to FR at 106 db. Hell, 100 db is a bit loud for my tastes at full range (had an RTA out in a home theater). I'll take the 32 watts to get to 100 db. Plenty loud for me.  

Get horns if you want loud.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

dawgdan said:


> I know I don't like listening to FR at 106 db. Hell, 100 db is a bit loud for my tastes at full range (had an RTA out in a home theater). I'll take the 32 watts to get to 100 db. Plenty loud for me.
> 
> Get horns if you want loud.


That's fine if you just listen to home theater. These were being used for a car. 100db in a car moving on the freeway at 70mph is quite a bit different than 100db in a 45db home theater base. Add 30db to that, if not more. 

So, again, you and the others sluff off the question.

The point is to get some discussion going about that subject. Also, it would be nice to discuss if there is a direct (linear or other) relationship between setting the x-over and power handling capability.

It might even be nice to discuss why one would want a higher wattage driver so one wouldn't be pushing a driver so hard all the time because the driver you are talking about probably has much higher distortion levels at its limits, rather than a driver that isn't working all that hard. So, if you figure you don't want to drive this thing all that hard and ACTUALLY RETAIN SOUND QUALITY IN A MOVING VEHICLE, it might not be the best idea, unless of course we can discuss how power handling might go up to 50-100w if using a hp x-over of above 500hz. 

This site actually used to be about discussion.

Sometimes I don't blame "the other hated guy" for saying the stuff he does.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Foglght said:


> That's fine if you just listen to home theater. These were being used for a car. 100db in a car moving on the freeway at 70mph is quite a bit different than 100db in a 45db home theater base. Add 30db to that, if not more.
> 
> So, again, you and the others sluff off the question.


The only question I saw you ask was about explaining low power handling and low sensitivity and getting loud. The answer is relatively simple. "Loud" is subjective. Now obviously there is going to be some cancellation going on from road noise, but how much? Who knows. Varies from car to car. 

But regardless, I still maintain that 100 db is a 100 db whether it's from 3 feet away or 10 feet away. If it's 100 db when it reaches your ear, it's loud, to me anyway. Try it for yourself and see. Disconnect your subs and high-pass your mids at 500 Hz and put a cheap Rat Shack meter on. Crank it up until it says 100 db. It's not fun. Then go on the freeway at 75 mph and crank it up again. It's still not fun.



> The point is to get some discussion going about that subject. Also, it would be nice to discuss if there is a direct (linear or other) relationship between setting the x-over and power handling capability.
> 
> It might even be nice to discuss why one would want a higher wattage driver so one wouldn't be pushing a driver so hard all the time because the driver you are talking about probably has much higher distortion levels at its limits, rather than a driver that isn't working all that hard. So, if you figure you don't want to drive this thing all that hard and ACTUALLY RETAIN SOUND QUALITY IN A MOVING VEHICLE, it might not be the best idea, unless of course we can discuss how power handling might go up to 50-100w if using a hp x-over of above 500hz.


You're assuming that 50-100 watts is constant. It's not. Not ever unless you enjoy the calming din of a test tone. Transients are the only time when these drivers will see full power from the amp unless you're getting stupid with your gain adjustments and volume knob. Put a DMM on the speaker terminals of your amp while playing music and watch the volts bounce around. The key is to be smart with your gains. You've been around here long enough to know that.

Let me also say I have not used this driver, so I cannot comment on its performance as far as crossover and slope. All I said was that 100 db was loud when played full range.

And then you pull this on me:



> This site actually used to be about discussion.
> 
> Sometimes I don't blame "the other hated guy" for saying the stuff he does.


I'm not sure why you're so agitated about this, but it's pretty ridiculous. There's no reason to resort to douche-baggery. And don't preach to me about what this site was once about. I've been here quite awhile myself. 

Hurry up, Randy's waiting for ya.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Some people need to take a crash course on music dynamics. 

I think its safe to say that we shouldn't be talking in absolutes when it comes to playing music. As stated above, the driver will not be receiving anywhere near the power while playing music. I would be VERY surprised if the average power surpassed 20watts under moderately loud to painful conditions (depending on the efficiency) unless you are playing music that is horrible compressed. 

For example, I have VU meters on my home amp that is powering Fostex FF85K (actual measurement for these specific, modified versions is a hair below 86db 1w/1m) and they never cross the 10w levels when I have the level pretty cranked. 

In addition, im tired of people going off the manufacture power ratings. For the last time, generally these ratings are with a FULL RANGE SIGNAL. What does that mean? No crossover, which means they are mechanically limited. Throw in a crossover between 150hz-300hz and I guarantee they will take the power just fine in sealed enclosures with minimal excursion. My RS100s receiving 130 watts each pair move about 2mm P-P under heavy passages crossed over at 125hz with a 2nd order slope. Sealed in 0.02 cubes each. 

In other words, please keep your opinion to yourselves until you actually try it in real life. Too often I see people rely on calculations and theory. Its more of a guideline then fact. Obviously, don't expect to get 100hz out of these driver, but do expect them to play the lower midrange and upper midbass with ease. 

That being said, two inch drivers are too small. I have tried them. Though they excel in off axis performance when compared to their 3 inch and 4 inch counterparts, they are limited in output below 400hz. Treat them as you would most dome mids and expect to cross over the midbass higher to compensate.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

^Truth be told. I'm going to play with some in my car later this week when mine come in.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Yeah you can drive a speaker way beyond it's "rated" power when the low bass is removed. I mean there are 5.25 drivers that are rated for 50 watts, but could easily take 200 if crossed over high enough.

The power ratings on these small drivers is meaningless for the most part since we would be using them crossed over between 200-250hz. The excursion at 250hz is a fraction of what it is when truly be driven with a full range signal so therefore they can handle much more. If these 3" full range drivers could not take more than 10 watts even when crossed over at 250hz, most tweeters would only take 2 watts.

Also like was mentioned, the actual amount of power delivered to a speaker while listening to music would shock a lot of people that seem to think they are sending a speaker 50 watts, when in reality a 50 watt amp probably averages just a few watts per channel even at higher listening levels.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

It would be fun to install an in-line "watt meter" (if such a thing exists) so you could see how many watts you are using at a given volume. I think most people would be tapping it, wondering if it was broken, lol!


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

89grand said:


> Yeah you can drive a speaker way beyond it's "rated" power when the low bass is removed. I mean there are 5.25 drivers that are rated for 50 watts, but could easily take 200 if crossed over high enough.
> 
> The power ratings on these small drivers is meaningless for the most part since we would be using them crossed over between 200-250hz. The excursion at 250hz is a fraction of what it is when truly be driven with a full range signal so therefore they can handle much more. If these 3" full range drivers could not take more than 10 watts even when crossed over at 250hz, most tweeters would only take 2 watts.
> 
> Also like was mentioned, the actual amount of power delivered to a speaker while listening to music would shock a lot of people that seem to think they are sending a speaker 50 watts, when in reality a 50 watt amp probably averages just a few watts per channel even at higher listening levels.


Sure, Scott lists the L3 as 200hz hp @24db giving power handling at 125 watts, which is a far cry from the 25 watts not crossed over.

There was already one person who stated earlier in the thread that the speakers are tested WITH a HP filter. Then another says they are tested without. Not sure which one it is.

Took a jaunt in the car and set the fluke meter to read max, and avg.

For the L3, avg was 9v, with peak at 13v. So, using on average, and even though its not perfect because the speaker doesn't have a flat impedance curve, about 20W avg. and 43W peak. Don't really listen to my system all that loud either. 

So, sure, one could use those speakers but they'd probably be playing at their limit, depending on x-over. The next question is what do the distortion specs look like playing toward the upper end of their capability?


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

the other hated guy said:


> why sail panels? you need to minimizing PLD's and providing the correct airspace for any driver.. and you won't accomplish either with that placement


I totally agree, actually. Take your measurements...that pass side MR is WAY over there in a one-seater. Either that, or the driver's side is right in your face. I've thought about putting small MR's up there many a time, but always shy away for this very reason. Localization and directionality FTL. Get the MR as far away from you as possible IMHO.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Foglght said:


> So, sure, one could use those speakers but they'd probably be playing at their limit, depending on x-over.


Powered by what amp? Rated power is not continuous power. Music dynamics? How about speaker efficiency. Got that driver on a suitable baffle? Power smower...f'in light that mofo up! Sorry, don't agree with your case here at all.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

I have to say, that Alpire Gold looks really nice... They are not as good as the Founteks at the Zaph test. Lower sensitivity and higher distorsion.

I have a lot of experience with the Auras NS3. Their power specs are very low but I'm using them as rear fill satelites, connected in serial, powered by a 280w mono channel and they hold @ 300hz HP, as good my frontstage.

Up to date, my midranges are the RS52 domes. Very different driver. High sensitivity, low Xmax, very low distorsión up to 3K. Their F3 distortion is not very good above that and I don't like them playing higher than 900 to 2.5/18. That is a very narrow bandpass. No problem because my tws plays nice 2,5 and up but.. As a lot lf people at this forum, I feel... changing is fun!


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

FoxPro5 said:


> Powered by what amp?


An amp that will power a 10w speaker.



FoxPro5 said:


> Rated power is not continuous power.


Thanks captain obvious.



FoxPro5 said:


> Music dynamics?


Yup talked about that earlier. I took an average when I tested, and I don't remember what the fluke sampling rate was but I'd imagine it had a few data points.



FoxPro5 said:


> How about speaker efficiency.


Those speakers were low at like 85db. 



FoxPro5 said:


> Got that driver on a suitable baffle? Power smower...f'in light that mofo up! Sorry, don't agree with your case here at all.


IB config for my case. 

I don't really care if you agree or not. If any of you had anything more than "it'll work" it might be a little better. Pointing people into this grey blob saying that as long as you have an x-over don't worry about power handling.......sorry that doesn't say much. I bring the facts that say this driver will continuously handle 10 watts. I said on average I use more than that. Facts that are printed......you know, something people can come back to rather than reading through endless amounts of drivel and hyperbole. Post a link refuting the 10W, and maybe we have a discussion.

I'm all about trying drivers, but this seems like pissing money away for sure.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Foglght said:


> FoxPro5 said:
> 
> 
> > Rated power is not continuous power.
> ...


I think you still may be missing the point here. 

What amp is currently powering your L3's? How much RMS power does it make per channel according to the manufacturer?

EDIT: I totally blew by your post about taking a ride in your car. That was the point I'm making. Plus, your version of "loud" is again, subjective. But still, you quoting 10 watts power handling is like me quoting 25 watts power handling for the L3's. I'm sure they're both using the AES standard for that number, which is pretty much by the book for most home audio manufacturers. If I am not mistaken, that's without crossover, pink noise, open baffle, anechoic chamber, nearfield measurement. Basically the opposite of everything we practice in everyday use in our vehicles. 

I'm still not sure what you're after here. Maybe affirmation that your L3's are superior to any other 3" driver out there? Just asking.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

dawgdan said:


> I think you still may be missing the point here.
> 
> What amp is currently powering your L3's? How much RMS power does it make per channel according to the manufacturer?


Irrelavent, but fine.......115w/channel, though I'm only driving 1-2V to it max, so it won't ever make that power. 



dawgdan said:


> I'm sure they're both using the AES standard for that number, which is pretty much by the book for most home audio manufacturers. If I am not mistaken, that's without crossover, pink noise, open baffle, anechoic chamber, nearfield measurement. Basically the opposite of everything we practice in everyday use in our vehicles.


Is that the standard? Someone else in here already contradicted you on that, so which is it? 



dawgdan said:


> I'm still not sure what you're after here. Maybe affirmation that your L3's are superior to any other 3" driver out there? Just asking.


Oh **** off. Seriously. Its the only driver I have currently that fits this thread of 2-3" speakers that would fit in a sail panel. Talking about the peerless 6.5 wouldn't make a ton of sense, and neither would any of the seas mids. We are talking about low power, small speakers.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

> Is that the standard? Someone else in here already contradicted you on that, so which is it?


As far as what Here-I-Come said, I PM'd him to clarify and maybe he'll jump back in this thread. You'd have to call the manufacturer directly to confirm whether their power handling numbers are AES standard or not. But for further clarification, I found a decent writeup by an a/v engineer on another forum about AES standard vs. RMS. Call it speculation or whatever, I don't care.. it appears to be genuinely knowledgable info. The text in bold I found particularly interesting:



> I believe that RMS power is a misnomer, it has become commonly used but it really is a meaningless value and is actually the calculated power based on RMS voltage and current measurements. Also realize that Program and Peak ratings are calculated rather than measured values, the AES test signal used has a 6dB crest factor, the peaks are 6dB above the average, so the "peak" power is 6dB (4X) the continuous power while "Program" is essentially a made up rating to reflect that the test signal is not the same as a typical program source such as music and it is typically simply 3dB (2X) above the continuous rating.
> 
> *There are numerous different speaker power rating schemes, some intended for individual drivers and some for full range devices. AES ratings are quite common and you might see IEC/EIA ratings as well. A few manufacturers use their own proprietary hybrid or modifications of some of the standard test methods. Many of the differences relate to the driving signal applied (bandwidth, filter slopes, crest factor, etc.) and the time the signal is applied. There are pros and cons to each method. And do not think that marketing is not a factor in this, how many people really understand or even notice the differences in the test methods or specifics of the ratings versus those that simply look at the numbers? So if your competition changes the test methods used or how the information is reported then from a sales perspective there is definitely some pressure to do the same.
> *
> ...


 


> Oh **** off. Seriously. Its the only driver I have currently that fits this thread of 2-3" speakers that would fit in a sail panel. Talking about the peerless 6.5 wouldn't make a ton of sense, and neither would any of the seas mids. We are talking about low power, small speakers.


Look, I'm trying to take the high road and have a discussion here, like you asked. You keep wanting to be a total ass about all of this when there's no reason. It's the internet. Calm down. Go have a smoke. Take a Xanax or a Zoloft if you need to.

Seriously.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

dawgdan said:


> As far as what Here-I-Come said, I PM'd him to clarify and maybe he'll jump back in this thread. You'd have to call the manufacturer directly to confirm whether their power handling numbers are AES standard or not. But for further clarification, I found a decent writeup by an a/v engineer on another forum about AES standard vs. RMS. Call it speculation or whatever, I don't care.. it appears to be genuinely knowledgable info.


This is what I can find on AES:



> AES power handling is perhaps one of the best defined ratings for loudspeakers.
> 
> It is simply pink noise filtered between 125Hz and 8kHz with a peak to average ratio of 6dB and applied over a period of two hours. It is one of the better indicators of both the thermal and mechanical aspects of power handling.


So, back to square one? This could be bandpassed? And so if that IS AES rated on the Founteks, the bandpassing with the test changes a few things.

Look I feel its important for people reading this site to understand more than a passing comment from people that don't even seem to have their facts straight. 




dawgdan said:


> Look, I'm trying to take the high road and have a discussion here, like you asked. You keep wanting to be a total ass about all of this when there's no reason. It's the internet. Calm down. Go have a smoke. Take a Xanax or a Zoloft if you need to.
> 
> Seriously.


You weren't anywhere near the high road. If you wanted to do that, don't post attempting to make me look like some Hybrid pimping fanboi.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Foglght said:


> So, back to square one? This could be bandpassed? And so if that IS AES rated on the Founteks, the bandpassing with the test changes a few things.


Maybe, maybe not. The post I quoted indicates that manufacturers are wildly inconsistent with their methods of rating power handling. The best way to determine how a manufacturer comes to this number is by contacting the manufacturer. I don't care enough about that number, to be honest.



> Look I feel its important for people reading this site to understand more than a passing comment from people that don't even seem to have their facts straight.


And I'm with you there. I'm learning, too. It's not about me not having my facts straight. I believe I have enough experience in 15+ years in this hobby to safely speculate that this driver could work well in a car with a car amplifier. I've yet to unintentionally blow a speaker and don't plan on it any time soon. I'm not tspence, just speculating wildly. There are numerous people on this board who run similar wideband drivers exceeding manufacturer power ratings with no problem at all.



> You weren't anywhere near the high road. If you wanted to do that, don't post attempting to make me look like some Hybrid pimping fanboi.


Sure, maybe it was a bit of an off-handed remark, but it was in response to your general pissy attitude earlier. I have no problem with Hybrid stuff - I know Scott personally and I think his products are some of the best on the market. It just _seemed_ like you were touting some specs on the L3 as being superior to the Fountek. I think both drivers could work well in a car environment.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

dawgdan said:


> Maybe, maybe not. The post I quoted indicates that manufacturers are wildly inconsistent with their methods of rating power handling. The best way to determine how a manufacturer comes to this number is by contacting the manufacturer. I don't care enough about that number, to be honest.


But many people, when putting together a system, before the actual install at least should be looking at these specs to determine if what they are buying will fit their system. 

Having a driver that will take 50W rms, and running it at 20W avg. should perform notably beter than a driver rated for 10W rms being overpowered at 20W avg. The thermal capabilities are some of the limiting factors here. 



dawgdan said:


> And I'm with you there. I'm learning, too. It's not about me not having my facts straight. I believe I have enough experience in 15+ years in this hobby to safely speculate that this driver could work well in a car with a car amplifier. I've yet to unintentionally blow a speaker and don't plan on it any time soon. I'm not tspence, just speculating wildly. There are numerous people on this board who run similar wideband drivers exceeding manufacturer power ratings with no problem at all.


 Many of these guys change drivers as much as they change underwear.

I don't know how one could expect good results from something that, on paper, screams "this won't work."





dawgdan said:


> Sure, maybe it was a bit of an off-handed remark, but it was in response to your general pissy attitude earlier. I have no problem with Hybrid stuff - I know Scott personally and I think his products are some of the best on the market. It just _seemed_ like you were touting some specs on the L3 as being superior to the Fountek. I think both drivers could work well in a car environment.


I get a pissy attitude because of the general consensus that some people come to and delving into the "black magic" of car audio. Like we have found out so far, it is still undetermined on how they come up with the power handling specs, and AES and RMS are the two most common. If it doesn't say either, did it get tested reliably?

It doesn't just stick for these drivers, but a lot of other drivers. 

The next question is at what x-over frequency can one assume that its safe to overdrive the speaker past whatever its rated for? 

These are just simple things that can help people when looking for drivers. Even the banter about how much power you really use. If I'm running a 3-way front active stage, knowing that the AES rating is sloped hp at 125hz, makes a difference when comparing it with other drivers. 

Then again, I don't know what the RMS test is, just the numbers associated with it.


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## iyamwutiam (Nov 20, 2006)

The EJ Jordan 2 inch drivers are th ebest I have ever heard in a car - they need to be in a stuffed 1 liter box. They have low sensitivity -etc.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

iyamwutiam said:


> The EJ Jordan 2 inch drivers are th ebest I have ever heard in a car


What are these? Link please. Thx.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

FoxPro5 said:


> What are these? Link please. Thx.


Don't even bother with these.

Haven't you heard, if it doesn't look good on paper, they are useless in a car. I'm sure sensitivity and power handling written on the spec sheet are low therefore they are garbage.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

89grand said:


> Don't even bother with these.
> 
> Haven't you heard, if it doesn't look good on paper, they are useless in a car. I'm sure sensitivity and power handling written on the spec sheet are low therefore they are garbage.


So go **** yourself.

And you know, the ****ed up part is that quite a few of you act exactly like the people you ***** about at CA.com. You have no facts or information to back anything up, and if someone comes in questioning it, you play it off, make no attempt to justify your position, and generally act like a ****ing woman. 

No wonder so many ****ing people left. So many of you act like elitest pieces of **** when you barely know more than the local **** at Best Buy. There were like 3 people total over the last 4 years on this site that actually seemed to know anything, and the rest of you just spew what they used to say. 

Good luck beating each other off with what you don't know.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

You have mental problems.

You act like no one has put a ****ing full range driver in their car and no one could possibly have any idea whether it would work. Like we are talking about time travel.

They are speakers, nothing too hard to comprehend about them.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Sorry for the mix up. I should have proof read my post.

As for as the FR88-ex goes, it is test without a highpass crossover, so there for you have a low rms power rating. After all it is market as a fullrange driver so it is tested as such. 

I know this because I have talk to the designer of this unit personally. And as I stated I test it myself in .75 liters from a Soundstream MC300 crossed at 200hz and it had no problems.

As with all the other small wide-band units I have tested.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

I will also found out about the power rating being of AES standard from the designer.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Thanks, Mark, for the clarification.


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## Fast1one (Apr 6, 2007)

Foglght said:


> So go **** yourself.
> 
> And you know, the ****ed up part is that quite a few of you act exactly like the people you ***** about at CA.com. You have no facts or information to back anything up, and if someone comes in questioning it, you play it off, make no attempt to justify your position, and generally act like a ****ing woman.
> 
> ...


Seems like you are the one acting like an elitist here. You and the-other-hated-one came out with guns loaded, while most of us are just sharing our experiences or ideas. 

I never use the manufactures rating for the specific reason that many DON'T use a standard whatsoever. Debating whether a rating is accurate or not is a moot point. If the driver appears to be of quality, and others have found the driver to be excellent (speaking of Zaph and the Fountek), then the next step is to stop dwelling on the specifications and try the driver yourself in your application.

Personally, I tried my RS100s sealed (notice, SEALED, not IB, better cone control) and found that it takes a whole lot of power for them to strain with a mid/low-100hz crossover, way beyond my personal listening preferences. Guess what, YOUR preferences may be vastly different than mine. Those who are considering these drivers should have some common sense. Its a 3 inch driver, you can't expect it to do wonders. In addition, the x-max value (assuming it was done correctly) is a good indicator of he limits of the driver. Sound is all about moving air. Efficiency becomes irrelevant if you have enough power, just takes more to get to point B  Car amplification is CHEAP these days.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Foglght said:


> The point is to get some discussion going about that subject.
> 
> This site actually used to be about discussion.





Foglght said:


> So go **** yourself.
> 
> And you know, the ****ed up part is that quite a few of you act exactly like the people you ***** about at CA.com. You have no facts or information to back anything up, and if someone comes in questioning it, you play it off, make no attempt to justify your position, and generally act like a ****ing woman.
> 
> ...


Makes sense to me.


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