# FOCAL's POOR CUSTOMER SUPPORT



## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

hey guys,




was interested in purchasing Focal's PK21 wiring kit, looking closer I noticed 
that the wire doesnt state OFC on it like the older EK21 kit did so I asked Focal reps 

A) if it is Tinned OFC or CCA (Copperclad aluminium) 
B) number of strands used (as its shown on ek21 I assume they would know)


1) initially I asked wooferset whom claims stock and sells the product, no clue extremely poor guidance.


2) asked Orca, they stated they dont carry these in stock, yet one asks himself then how did wooferset get them 

3) I asked FOCAL EU not once but 3 times in a few weeks not even an automated file number,nothing! 



wow, definatley note what I expected in year 2018, hell even entry level family companies atleast give the curtosy to respond and know there product here I'am asking 3 key contacts and they either dont know or dont give a damn


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

by the way,



this is Focal's EK21 kit, look closer and you will see it states 35mm on the power cable yet it also states 4AWG 

https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foc...g/document/elite-ek21-specification-sheet.pdf

35mm is 2AWG so I ask guys at Wooferset, guess what there response was? 

well we dont know but you can cut the wire down to what your amp can accept (true 4 awg) if it is indeed 35mm.



I'am going to buy a hi end companies supposedly hi end wire at spec and then MacGyver it to fit


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## bigaudiofanatic (Mar 1, 2009)

I have to agree with focal having crappy support. The issue I had was a K2 woofer froze and I contacted them about a rebuild. They said they don't do that I said ok how about purchasing just the woofer. Nope can't do that either, I would have to buy an entire new set just for the wooferm. Very sad to hear sense my K2 are one of my favorites.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Why do people mess with this company? There are multiple manufacture here that make exceptional product and Support it and us!


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

audiocholic said:


> hey guys,
> 
> was interested in purchasing Focal's PK21 wiring kit, looking closer I noticed that the wire doesnt state OFC on it like the older EK21 kit did so I asked Focal reps
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but I think you're making something out of nothing...

The technical spec sheet clearly says:

The cables are 100% OFC.
The power cable is 1862 strands of 100% OFC.
The RCA's are 100% OFC.
https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foc...g/document/elite-ek21-specification-sheet.pdf

As for the 35mm diameter on the power cable... simple typo.
In all other instances, it claims that the power and ground are 21mm (4awg)

Did you really phone Woofers and expect them to rip one of these open and measure with a set of calipers? 
Take a look at it on their website... it has very clear high resolution pictures, that show it being 4awg / 21mm cable...

EK21 - Focal 4 AWG Elite Series Amplifier Wiring Kit


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## bigaudiofanatic (Mar 1, 2009)

dcfis said:


> Why do people mess with this company? There are multiple manufacture here that make exceptional product and Support it and us!


See above?


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

jimmydee said:


> I'm sorry, but I think you're making something out of nothing...
> 
> The technical spec sheet clearly says:
> 
> ...





I assume you missunderstood all so I will repeat:


the product in question is not the EK21 , in the initial statement I pointed our I'am asking about the PK21 not EK21


All I said was there is the specs on the EK21 (and there wrong too 2awg vs 4awg)

but there is no specs on the PK21 which is the hassle and I surely do not want to simply guess

https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foc...document/pk8-pk21-pr5-specification-sheet.pdf


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

My system consists of Focal K2 165KRX3, ES 165k and two pairs of ES 100k. Around 5k of speakers, all installed and purchased new from a Focal authorized dealer.

The speakers sound great but, I will never buy Focal products again because of their support. Because of the way Focal (Orcale) wired my 165KRX3 crossovers for bi-amping, it creates a loud turn on pop. 

They admit that it is their problem but, offer no solutions other than buy the new ES series 3 ways.

Needless to say, I am not happy with Focal customer support either.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

audiocholic said:


> I assume you missunderstood all so I will repeat:
> 
> the product in question is not the EK21 , in the initial statement I pointed our I'am asking about the PK21 not EK21
> 
> ...


Ah yes... I see what you're asking now.
The PK21 is definitely lacking in product information...
My apology for the misunderstanding of your original post.

Here's my best suggestion;
Forget about using a Focal wiring kit. Especially, if they can't tell you what it's made of. 
The reality is that, Focal doesn't masnufacture a single part of this kit. They buy it from an offshore manufacturer, and put their label on the packaging.

There is nothing enticing about this product, that would make it better than any other brand.

If the following statement from their sales sheet, is the best they can offer, then they aren't offering anything, other than basic 4awg (probably tinned), and standard RCA's:

WHAT MAKES THE DIFFERENCE
• “All in one” solution (amplifier and speakers)
• High-flexibility power cable (multiple braiding)
• 90° RCA connectors for easier access
• Ready-for-use kit for optimal assembly of quality installations.


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

jimmydee said:


> Ah yes... I see what you're asking now.
> The PK21 is definitely lacking in product information...
> My apology for the misunderstanding of your original post.
> 
> ...




no problem,thanks mate for kind & informative response.




I too gathered this kit is exactly as you stated but simply wanted to share my experience as this isnt the first either of Focals support lacking to say the least.




from my experience with other brands so far:


No 1 on my list: without a doubt JL Audio takes the lead, within seconds I recieve an automated response,a file to follow up, a response that is very very detailed.


no 2: Crutchfield, identical performance to no1



no 3: Stinger ,these guys did the same as the above knowing with %110 certainty I wouldnt be purchasing from them


no 4: Alpine, again same performance but lacked on sharing some of the critical information requested 


no 5: Optima, response was quick but clearly they were using an outsourced and very obviously overseas call centre that lacked heavily but nevertheless they responded several times with good intentions.



Focal= by far the worst I have seen so far and this is the first time in my life I'am writing a review/complaint if thats what we can call it on the net.


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Get Knu's power cable. I'm pretty sure with the price of Focal, you can get a very nice custom order set from Knu. I prefer tinned OFC at any 1 time.


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## What? (Jun 5, 2008)

I have ordered single drivers from Focal (orca).


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

What? said:


> I have ordered single drivers from Focal (orca).


So have I but, Orca and Focal still can't provide me with crossovers that don't cause a turn on pop. Even though it is their fault.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Everyone loves to **** on Focal (with good cause), but I will give them credit that they are very good with QC on their drivers. I did T/S measurements with 2 of their flax series component sets and each pair of drivers (woofers, mids, tweets) were dead on with each other. I was surprised and impressed. That doesn’t mean they’d be my choice of drivers to run though.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

Hello,

I would like to post some simple replies in hopes to clearing up some misinformation in this thread. 



audiocholic said:


> 2) asked Orca, they stated they dont carry these in stock, yet one asks himself then how did wooferset get them
> 
> 3) I asked FOCAL EU not once but 3 times in a few weeks not even an automated file number,nothing!
> 
> wow, definatley note what I expected in year 2018, hell even entry level family companies atleast give the curtosy to respond and know there product here I'am asking 3 key contacts and they either dont know or dont give a damn


In the follow-up email you have from me directly, I completely explained our position regarding your concerns about how the US outlet got the products when the US distributor discontinued them in 2014. Since 2014 we have not continued with the wiring products, so your inquiries regarding a 2017/2018 product line cannot be answered by us. Also, it is highly likely that Focal has forwarded your information to the Distributor for Turkey (similar to what they do with us when a consumer enters USA into the country box), and they have not answered your inquiries. Since our dealers are not allowed to ship out of country, asking questions to the US distributor, regarding a product line we do not offer, has put us in a difficult place, and now we are here.

I addressed your questions as best we could with the information we have, regarding a product line we don't carry.



bigaudiofanatic said:


> I have to agree with focal having crappy support. The issue I had was a K2 woofer froze and I contacted them about a rebuild. They said they don't do that I said ok how about purchasing just the woofer. Nope can't do that either, I would have to buy an entire new set just for the wooferm. Very sad to hear sense my K2 are one of my favorites.


Individual parts are available from our network of authorized retailers, as they have been for a considerable amount of time. I am not sure who you spoke with, but what you are explaining is not the case. See Below.



What? said:


> I have ordered single drivers from Focal (orca).





KillerBox said:


> Because of the way Focal (Orcale) wired my 165KRX3 crossovers for bi-amping, it creates a loud turn on pop.
> 
> They admit that it is their problem but, offer no solutions other than buy the new ES series 3 ways.


I am not at all sure who you spoke with about this that said what you are claiming, but I spoke with our engineer and his explanation was exactly as I had though. See below. With regard to "buy the new..." this would also not have been correct as your tweeters are not compatible with the new crossover, so you would have to buy the new crossovers and tweeters, which also wouldn't fix your turn on pop issue. 

"A turn on pop is caused by a DC voltage step.
A DC blocking capacitor allows the leading edge of the pulse to pass through because the step is an AC event.

If the crossover had some defect that caused a low impedance or a short circuit then the amplifier would go into protection and not play music.

It is impossible for a "passive device" like a crossover to create energy to cause a turn on pop. The energy has to come from the amplifier or something in front of it. The amplifier might need a longer turn on delay time to allow components in front of it to turn on and stabilize first."

If anyone ever has questions, i do invite you to contact me directly, either through here, or though the company. Hearsay doesn't get anyone anywhere, and this honestly feels like a bunch of hearsay, or omission.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

Seems really defensive with no mention of actually helping these blokes with speakers or info.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> So have I but, Orca and Focal still can't provide me with crossovers that don't cause a turn on pop. Even though it is their fault.


passive crossover that CAUSES turn on pop? so if you take the crossover out it doesn't pop? that would be a first for me. lol


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

cobb2819 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I would like to post some simple replies in hopes to clearing up some misinformation in this thread.
> 
> ...


I've had nothing but excellent support from Orca, love my C8s and C10XL that I compete with.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

I sent you a PM Cobb2819

To answer everyone's questions, turn on pop only happens when you wire bi-amp Focal's passive crossover to 4 different amplifier channels. 

The turn on pop doesn't not happen when you use the same 4 channels on 4 test speakers or if you take the passive crossovers out of the signal chain.

Tried 3 different Arc Audio 1200.6 xDI amplifiers with headunit and DSP disconnected and they all had the turn on pop through the Focal passive crossovers.

But, Focal doesn't have to convince me. Just tell my local authorized dealer how to fix it and I will let them convince me when I no longer have a turn on pop.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> I sent you a PM Cobb2819
> 
> To answer everyone's questions, turn on pop only happens when you wire bi-amp Focal's passive crossover to 4 different amplifier channels.
> 
> ...



i'd love to see a video of that.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> i'd love to see a video of that.


Maybe they can accommodate you when they fix it because I just want it fixed!


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

locoface said:


> cobb2819 said:
> 
> 
> > Hello,
> ...


Awesome speakers are you sponsored?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> Maybe they can accommodate you when they fix it because I just want it fixed!


This is the system if anyone wants to see it:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...exus-lx-470-landcruiser-finally-finished.html


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

dcfis said:


> Awesome speakers are you sponsored?


I can only dream of that day to happen... I compete for MECA out here in SoCal with them.


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## bigaudiofanatic (Mar 1, 2009)

cobb2819 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I would like to post some simple replies in hopes to clearing up some misinformation in this thread.
> 
> ...


I would love a link of where I can buy my woofer. They've been sitting in my basement collecting dust.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

bigaudiofanatic said:


> I would love a link of where I can buy my woofer. They've been sitting in my basement collecting dust.


What speakers are they? Specific model please.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

dcfis said:


> Seems really defensive with no mention of actually helping these blokes with speakers or info.


LOL. There is no winning with some people.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Angrywhopper said:


> LOL. There is no winning with some people.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Angrywhopper said:


> LOL. There is no winning with some people.


They can win with me. As I said above & in a private message, just let me know when to bring my SUV to their Authorized Dealer that did my install to get it fixed!


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

cobb2819 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I would like to post some simple replies in hopes to clearing up some misinformation in this thread.
> 
> ...



Mate, if you notice the only area I wrote anything negative about Orca is about your claim and thats not to you too thats directly questioning Wooferset.



you claim you havent imported any wiring kits which I do not question but then hey , how did wooferset get there hands on these kits if the only LEGAL distributor in there country claims they havent brought any kits for 4 years.


the PK21 is a product after 2014 so it cant be old stock either, please view wooferset website, as clearly shown it states in stock.


PK21 - Focal 4 AWG Performance Series Power Amplifier Wiring Kit

so my comment there went to woofersets loyalty more then to you and I appologize for the situation I have put you in but I'am truely pissed at them and a far far more bit to Focal themselves then Orca.



by the way you are skipping one very important detail which I did state to you, I'am not in Turkey but in the US (and will be for a few months)so indeed my contacts are correct.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Audiocholic did anyone with Focal help you with your concerns?


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

KillerBox said:


> Audiocholic did anyone with Focal help you with your concerns?



5 emails to them not a single reply over months (initial email goes back as far as 2016 actually on other products which again I got nothing)



last email I post this thread and state my aggression towards them within a few hours we get the email response here from Orca (might be a coincedence who knows)


what pisses me off more is that I kept getting told to contact the Turkish dealer while I had told them several times I'am in the US (Cali) at the moment.

even though they were unprofessional enough to have the Turkish dealer respond telling me to call him (yeah ok with a 12hr timezone difference) and speak to him in Turkish.


all along it takes you what 1min to simply write sir we recieved your email thanks and yeah its OFC or yeah its CCA?  

man, my rate to these guys are subzero, would give them -10 over a 10 rating if I could,just terrible to say the least.

I wouldnt be so hard on them if there competition wasnt completely the opposite with automated response of acceptance of my email, a file number to follow, an actual tech response within hours, a very good cooperative dialog and detailed ,helpfull assistance.

but this is the case so yeah Focal lacks big time..


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## bigaudiofanatic (Mar 1, 2009)

cobb2819 said:


> What speakers are they? Specific model please.


Focal K2 Power 165KR2


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

audiocholic said:


> 5 emails to them not a single reply over months (initial email goes back as far as 2016 actually on other products which again I got nothing)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One thing that might help all of us understand, is if you can clearly define where you are contacting Focal and where you are contacting Orca along with their subsequent responses. 

From what I can tell, Orca has done what they can to help you on their end. You are inquiring in the US about a product that is not being sold in the US through official channels. 

And while Woofers Etc. might be the company selected by Focal/Orca to sell old stock, etc., it doesn't mean that Woofers Etc. isn't continuing to operate under their historic business model. They are known to bring in goods though unauthorized channels and sell them in the US. Those items have no support and no warranty through official channels. 

Lastly, it is an amp kit. Yes, I get it.. "If you have this much trouble with something as simple as an amp kit..." But, I don't think it is fair to judge an entire company (Focal) and their regional representative (Orca) based on a non-supported, out of region product that is such an insignificant part of the company's offerings.


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

rton20s said:


> One thing that might help all of us understand, is if you can clearly define where you are contacting Focal and where you are contacting Orca along with their subsequent responses.
> 
> From what I can tell, Orca has done what they can to help you on their end. You are inquiring in the US about a product that is not being sold in the US through official channels.
> 
> ...




I want one thing to be super clear, I'am not in anyway judging Orca!

as mentioned before my aggresion is completely towards Wooferset and more importantly/mainly to Focal as in Focal directly not there distributor.




hey If I had to comment about Orca it would definatley be positive and I assume the others that are refering to poor customer support they are getting this poor performance due to Focal not Orca for example what can Orca do if Focal isnt selling the speaker parts as replacements right?


I also want all to understand this is not the only case I have had with Focal,I had sent them questions in the past about there 3 way flax series, nada

sent them an email about the latest es series k power 3 way,nada


guess who was kind/generous enought to reply with super detail even though I was not in there territory and wouldnt by from them? it was Orca or Duane Pilgrim to be exact (very very nice gentlemen)




but yes I still state Focal has very crappy customer support line, by the way do not look at there amp kit as a non important item either there previous EK21 consisted of very fine multi strain ofc cable and more importantly very high end Tchernov rca cable so yeah it was really good stuff and praised for in the EU.


its a pitty there replacement PK21 has nothing to do with the EK21, I mean the wire looks crap, the rca looks crap its nothing alike the EK21 that for some reason they stop selling


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> They can win with me. As I said above & in a private message, just let me know when to bring my SUV to their Authorized Dealer that did my install to get it fixed!


They can still win with me but, the longer this process takes the worse it is going to look on Focal and Orca. 

I have sent them every bit of information they requested but, they still haven't fixed my problem.


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## bigaudiofanatic (Mar 1, 2009)

cobb2819 any info where I can get that replacement mid?


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> They can still win with me but, the longer this process takes the worse it is going to look on Focal and Orca.
> 
> I have sent them every bit of information they requested but, they still haven't fixed my problem.


I have been speaking with out engineer about this with the information you have provided to me, about how this is possibly caused by the passive networks. All crossovers were modified exactly the same way, and your set seem to be the ones misbehaving and causing a pop.

My first suggestion would be to have the install swap them with your spare set and see if the issue goes away. If it does, they are covered under warranty due to your record keeping, and use of proper channels. If the issue does not go away, then it isn't a fault of the crossover directly, and something else is misbehaving with the overall install. 



bigaudiofanatic said:


> cobb2819 any info where I can get that replacement mid?


Regretfully, since that set of speakers was discontinued in January of 2016, replacement parts are no longer available; however, you could purchase a replacement set of the W/ES165K2 from the new versions. Any independent authorized retailer can order you the new single parts.


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## bigaudiofanatic (Mar 1, 2009)

What's funny is when I contacted them back in the end of 2015, that's when they stated I had to.buy a whole new set. Again such a shame.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> I have been speaking with out engineer about this with the information you have provided to me, about how this is possibly caused by the passive networks. All crossovers were modified exactly the same way, and your set seem to be the ones misbehaving and causing a pop.
> 
> My first suggestion would be to have the install swap them with your spare set and see if the issue goes away. If it does, they are covered under warranty due to your record keeping, and use of proper channels. If the issue does not go away, then it isn't a fault of the crossover directly, and something else is misbehaving with the overall install.


As I have previously stated, my authorized Focal dealer that installed my Focal products says to contact Focal about my popping problem. The dealer says they contacted Focal and the dealer can't help me any further.

Then Focal tells me to contact my authorized dealer or to find the problem myself.

I don't mind using my spare parts to determine which part is not working properly but, I don't have time to try to swap the parts out myself.

This can be fixed easy by you discussing with my dealer and then letting me know when I can bring my SUV in to get it fixed.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> As I have previously stated, my authorized Focal dealer that installed my Focal products says to contact Focal about my popping problem. The dealer says they contacted Focal and the dealer can't help me any further.
> 
> Then Focal tells me to contact my authorized dealer or to find the problem myself.
> 
> ...


Still here, still waiting, got nothing better to do other than bump these threads for 5 days a week and dream of no turn on pop.


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## terryna (Mar 15, 2018)

subscribed, this seems like a very interesting thread


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

just opened the PK21 kit, dear god !!!



how do you go from full OFC power cable with super fine strands,Tchernov RCA wires,
a proper quality fuse rated at 150amps to this crap.



the whole kit is very very basic flea market street wires priced x5 ,no wonder they never had the guts to share anything in written.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

terryna said:


> subscribed, this seems like a very interesting thread


Enjoy your stay & we will be here everyday for all summer long or until Focal makes it right! Please don’t forget to tip your bartender & waitresses ?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Bump


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

I almost forgot about my daily bump, so I set an alarm on my phone’s calendar.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Bump


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

KillerBox said:


> I don't mind using my spare parts to determine which part is not working properly but, *I don't have time to try to swap the parts out myself.*


You're sure contradicting yourself.

Do yourself a favor, swap out the passives and go from there.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQram said:


> You're sure contradicting yourself.
> 
> Do yourself a favor, swap out the passives and go from there.


I don't see how I am contradicting myself. So let me see if I can make my problem clear:

I have spare component sets (for almost everything in my system) that are being stored in my home closet. I do this because I like keep my vehicles for 10+ years. I almost never have time away from work to experiment, tune and swap out parts when any manufacture says my components are "obsolete".

So I don't mind the Focal authorized dealer that installed my Focal system using my spare parts to determine my turn on pop problem.

The local dealer says it is a Focal's crossover problem and to contact Focal. I contacted Focal and it seems to be they want me to determine what the problem is myself. 

I don't have time to find problems myself that is why I went with a premium product and let their authorized dealer install it.

In my opinion, if you are going to sell your products at a premium then you should have premium support from the manufacture to the dealer. And I have 10k worth of Focal products in my system and closet, so I don't mind paying the premium. 

So like the original poster said "FOCAL's POOR CUSTOMER SUPPORT"


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

KillerBox said:


> I don't see how I am contradicting myself.


FYI -- You are contradicting yourself by repeatedly posting this on a forum called "DO IT YOURSELF" Mobile Audio.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

seafish said:


> FYI -- You are contradicting yourself by posting this on a forum called "DO IT YOURSELF" Mobile Audio.


Oh in that case, why in the world would anyone in this forum buy a Focal's component sets? If it is truly "DO IT YOURSELF" just buy only raw speakers from places like Madisound and Parts Express.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

looking at your install, i see a few potential issues. i'd take it back and have the people who installed it fix it.


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## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

I'm in the planning stages of an install. Threads like this has helped push me away from Focal.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> looking at your install, i see a few potential issues. i'd take it back and have the people who installed it fix it.


I did and the Focal authorized dealer determine it was because of how Focal or Orca bi-amped the passive crossovers. And they said that Focal wasn't going to do anything about it. 

I kept my mouth shut until someone else brought up "FOCAL's POOR CUSTOMER SUPPORT". 

After this going back and forth, I am starting to believe that Focal really isn't interested in fixing the problem.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> I did and the Focal authorized dealer determine it was because of how Focal or Orca bi-amped the passive crossovers. And they said that Focal wasn't going to do anything about it.
> 
> I kept my mouth shut until someone else brought up "FOCAL's POOR CUSTOMER SUPPORT".
> 
> After this going back and forth, I am starting to believe that Focal really isn't interested in fixing the problem.


did you ask them what they did to determine it was the crossovers? you might want to try taking it to another shop, having them fix it, then bill the first.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> did you ask them what they did to determine it was the crossovers? you might want to try taking it to another shop, having them fix it, then bill the first.


With no Focal passive crossover and wired directly to the Focal speakers, then no turn on pop.

With the Focal passive crossover hooked up to just 2 channels of amplifier outputs, no turn on pop.

As soon as you bi-amped the Focal passive crossover, then a very loud turn on pop.

Before anyone says don't bi-amp the passive crossovers then. You have bi-amp these Focal speakers because even though they are rated as 4 ohm speakers, they dip down to 0.8 ohms. Most Class D amps can't handle this low ohm level drop. The shop and I found this out the hard way.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

KillerBox said:


> With no Focal passive crossover and wired directly to the Focal speakers, then no turn on pop.
> 
> With the Focal passive crossover hooked up to just 2 channels of amplifier outputs, no turn on pop.
> 
> ...


I did a quick search for those particular speakers, the passives are not designed for bi-amping (they only have one input)?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQram said:


> I did a quick search for those particular speakers, the passives are not designed for bi-amping (they only have one input)?


They originally were not made for bi-amping but, then Focal realized that with the extremely low ohm level dip that most Class D amps couldn't go down to a 0.8 ohm load.

My understanding at this point is Focal had Orca install another set of inputs and they also solder two wires on the backs of the crossover's circuit board.


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

seafish said:


> FYI -- You are contradicting yourself by repeatedly posting this on a forum called "DO IT YOURSELF" Mobile Audio.


Please,  that's nothing. Half the stuff I see on this site anymore has been installed, fabbed, or tuned by professionals.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

KillerBox said:


> With no Focal passive crossover and wired directly to the Focal speakers, then no turn on pop.
> 
> With the Focal passive crossover hooked up to just 2 channels of amplifier outputs, no turn on pop.
> 
> ...


I'd be highly skeptical of that, speakers are both resistive and inductive loads. The resistive load to the amplifier will not change regardless of the signal applied to it. Measure the DCR with a meter or look up the RE spec for the woofer, that is the "lowest" possible load the amplifier will see if inductance was ignored. My guess is that it's in the 2-3ohm range, but I couldn't find the spec's for the speaker online.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

KillerBox said:


> They originally were not made for bi-amping but, then Focal realized that with the extremely low ohm level dip that most Class D amps couldn't go down to a 0.8 ohm load.
> 
> My understanding at this point is Focal had Orca install another set of inputs and they also solder two wires on the backs of the crossover's circuit board.


You sure the shop didn't modify the passives? That doesn't sound like something Focal or Orca would do?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQram said:


> You sure the shop didn't modify the passives? That doesn't sound like something Focal or Orca would do?


Focal or Orca differently did modified them but, then they realized this patch job created this turn on pop on some systems.

A quick search and I found this thread about the Focal165KRX3 crossover problems but, there are others too: 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...2-need-help-focal-165krx3-crossover-asap.html


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQram said:


> I'd be highly skeptical of that, speakers are both resistive and inductive loads. The resistive load to the amplifier will not change regardless of the signal applied to it. Measure the DCR with a meter or look up the RE spec for the woofer, that is the "lowest" possible load the amplifier will see if inductance was ignored. My guess is that it's in the 2-3ohm range, but I couldn't find the spec's for the speaker online.



Number #6 on this thread addresses the 0.8 ohm load drop too:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...2-need-help-focal-165krx3-crossover-asap.html


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQram said:


> You sure the shop didn't modify the passives? That doesn't sound like something Focal or Orca would do?


Here is where they added the last page on the manual:

https://pdf.crutchfieldonline.com/ImageBank/v20091203104100/Manuals/091/091165KRX2.PDF

The first set of Focal K2 Power 165 KRX3 didn't have this added sheet in the manual but, the crossovers were modified. So we didn't bi-amp and after my Arc Audio xDI 1200.6 kept going into protection mode and killed one of my Focal 3" speakers, then I found out about the low ohm load.

My spare set (in my closet) of Focal K2 Power 165 KRX3 came with the manual's added page.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

KillerBox said:


> Number #6 on this thread addresses the 0.8 ohm load drop too:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...2-need-help-focal-165krx3-crossover-asap.html


Just read it, that is bizzare. Sounds like a design issue for sure. Best of luck.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQram said:


> Just read it, that is bizzare. Sounds like a design issue for sure. Best of luck.


Thank you and like I told Focal and my local dealer, I am not out to beat anyone out of anything. I just want my system to preform like it is supposed too.

I went to this shop because it is Focal's authorized retailer. It is not like it is convenient for me to get rides back and forth to my neighboring city to drop off and pickup my SUV. About 60 miles round trip and the shop's work hours are the same as mine.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

If you're just looking for a solution, you could remove the midbass from the passive crossover and use the bandpass crossover in the amplifier? Or if the midbass are on dedicated channels in the DSP, configure crossovers there?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQram said:


> If you're just looking for a solution, you could remove the midbass from the passive crossover and use the bandpass crossover in the amplifier? Or if the midbass are on dedicated channels in the DSP, configure crossovers there?


Thank you and yes sir, we tried to remove the midbass from the passive crossover and using the crossover built into the amplifier.

3 different people agreed that it sounded better with the midbass going through the passive crossover. I know this goes against what most say on DIYMA and I don't know why but, it did. My guess is that Focal uses the passive crossovers to smooth out the frequency response some.

In my Logic7 system a 8 channel JBL MS8 DSP handles the lowpass crossovers between the midbass (or midrange) speakers and subwoofers. I use the supplied Focal passive crossovers between the midranges and tweeters.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I did and the Focal authorized dealer determine it was because of how Focal or Orca bi-amped the passive crossovers. And they said that Focal wasn't going to do anything about it.
> 
> I kept my mouth shut until someone else brought up "FOCAL's POOR CUSTOMER SUPPORT".
> 
> After this going back and forth, I am starting to believe that Focal really isn't interested in fixing the problem.


Maybe I missed it, but did you ever follow through with the request/suggestion from cobb2819 listed in the quote below? It seems that Orca is trying to take care of you, but your local dealer is wanting to be done with the situation. 

I would make an appt with your dealer to have them swap out the crossovers. Based on the pics on your install thread, that shouldn't take but a few minutes to do. They can test and confirm whether or not the turn on pop takes place with the replacement passives. If it goes away, the passives are covered under warranty according to Orca. If the pop doesn't go away, as stated by Orca, it is probably something else within the system. 

Until you are willing to do your part to confirm the problem is actually a warranty issue for Orca, I can't see them being under any obligation to just start shipping you out replacement parts at no charge. 



cobb2819 said:


> I have been speaking with out engineer about this with the information you have provided to me, about how this is possibly caused by the passive networks. All crossovers were modified exactly the same way, and your set seem to be the ones misbehaving and causing a pop.
> 
> My first suggestion would be to have the install swap them with your spare set and see if the issue goes away. If it does, they are covered under warranty due to your record keeping, and use of proper channels. If the issue does not go away, then it isn't a fault of the crossover directly, and something else is misbehaving with the overall install.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

Bizarroterl said:


> I'm in the planning stages of an install. Threads like this has helped push me away from Focal.


It shouldn't. I don't see OPs issue as a legitimate one.


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## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

Angrywhopper said:


> It shouldn't. I don't see OPs issue as a legitimate one.


I'll be using digital amps (Biketronics), the MS-8, and may be using a passive for the mid/tweets on both sides. The problems the OP is having are directly applicable (and legitimate).


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Angrywhopper said:


> It shouldn't. I don't see OPs issue as a legitimate one.


Agreed. Especially since, if you're dealing with Focal in the US, you are dealing with Orca. Orca has an excellent track record for customer support. Also, the product in question in the OP isn't a product that is supported in the US, but has shown up at a non-authorized (for this product) US vendor. Don't let this thread be a reason to dissuade you from using any of the products Orca supports.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Maybe I missed it, but did you ever follow through with the request/suggestion from cobb2819 listed in the quote below? It seems that Orca is trying to take care of you, but your local dealer is wanting to be done with the situation.
> 
> I would make an appt with your dealer to have them swap out the crossovers. Based on the pics on your install thread, that shouldn't take but a few minutes to do. They can test and confirm whether or not the turn on pop takes place with the replacement passives. If it goes away, the passives are covered under warranty according to Orca. If the pop doesn't go away, as stated by Orca, it is probably something else within the system.
> 
> Until you are willing to do your part to confirm the problem is actually a warranty issue for Orca, I can't see them being under any obligation to just start shipping you out replacement parts at no charge.


I am typing this on my phone so forgive any mistakes.

First: I never asked Orca to send me any replacement parts at no charge. I asked them to get with my local Authorized dealer to get the problem fixed.

Second: My local Authorzied dealer troubleshooted & told me the problem was with the passive crossovers.

Third: How would Orca determine if it was the crossover problem for other people that didn’t have spare parts like me?

Fourth: If I have to find someone to fix it or do it myself, then in my opinion FOCAL’s CUSTOMER SERVICE needs some improvement. In that case, isn’t that what this thread is about?

Fifth: I don’t mind them using my spare parts to fix my problem. I just want them to fix it.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I am typing this on my phone so forgive any mistakes.
> 
> First: I never asked Orca to send me any replacement parts at no charge. I asked them to get with my local Authorized dealer to get the problem fixed.


And then you posted in here. And you got what I would consider an "official" response from Orca on a path to resolution. (I have no idea if other conversations have taken place via PM, email or other means of communication.) I suspect that if your dealer contacted Orca, they would likely give them the same exact answer. 



KillerBox said:


> Second: My local Authorzied dealer troubleshooted & told me the problem was with the passive crossovers.


And Orca has provided you with a path to resolution. I've seen more than just Orca question whether or not the passives could actually be the source for your turn on pop issues. They want to be sure that whatever is done actually corrects the issue.



KillerBox said:


> Third: How would Orca determine if it was the crossover problem for other people that didn’t have spare parts like me?


I'm not Orca, but likely send the necessary parts to an authorized dealer to perform the necessary testing. If they didn't already have the part in stock. 



KillerBox said:


> Fourth: If I have to find someone to fix it or do it myself, then in my opinion FOCAL’s CUSTOMER SERVICE needs some improvement. In that case, isn’t that what this thread is about?


By "fix it" do you mean swap out the crossovers to confirm that the originals are defective? Is that really too much to ask of your installer? Or of you, if you don't want to go back to the installer? 

What do you expect Orca to do? Should cobb fly out personally to swap the passive crossovers? I understand your frustration, but refusing to take your vehicle back to the dealer or to do the swap yourself while you continue to bump a thread in an attempt to motivate Orca to help you does nothing but make you look bad. 



KillerBox said:


> Fifth: I don’t mind them using my spare parts to fix my problem. I just want them to fix it.


So, swap the passives with your spares. That should confirm whether it is an issue with the crossovers or if it is something else in the system.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

I will address your points tomorrow when I am on a desktop computer but, if all ORCA thinks customer service is to exchange defective parts then we are of 2 totally different opinions of what I considered as premium customer service.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> I will address your points tomorrow when I am on a desktop computer but, if all ORCA thinks customer service is to exchange defective parts then we are of 2 totally different opinions of what I considered as premium customer service.


Seems to me your biggest problem is the dealer you bought the equipment from and had install it. The dealer should have done whatever is necessary to fix the issue and then they can take it up with Focal/Orca after. You shouldn't have to do anything beyond taking it to the dealer and tell them to fix it.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

ca90ss said:


> Seems to me your biggest problem is the dealer you bought the equipment from and had install it. The dealer should have done whatever is necessary to fix the issue and then they can take it up with Focal/Orca after. You shouldn't have to do anything beyond taking it to the dealer and tell them to fix it.


^^ this.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> I will address your points tomorrow when I am on a desktop computer but, if all ORCA thinks customer service is to exchange defective parts then we are of 2 totally different opinions of what I considered as premium customer service.


Dude, what else do you want? The manufacturer has exchanged what potentially could be a defective part(s) with a new one. Did you want the company to fly out to you and lay down on their knees and beg for mercy? It's a business. You get your product, they get money. That's it. Get off your high horse.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Angrywhopper said:


> Dude, what else do you want? The manufacturer has exchanged what potentially could be a defective part(s) with a new one. Did you want the company to fly out to you and lay down on their knees and beg for mercy? It's a business. You get your product, they get money. That's it. Get off your high horse.


The manufacture hasn’t exchanged anything, so why do you automatically assume so? The manufacture hasn’t done anything except send me a message. 

So what is your connection to Focal or Orca? Are they sponsoring you or something else?

And to be honest, I don’t care how they fix or who fixes it (besides me). So until I get my product working properly, I will say what I please, as many times as I please and on any horse that I choose.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Seems to me your biggest problem is the dealer you bought the equipment from and had install it. The dealer should have done whatever is necessary to fix the issue and then they can take it up with Focal/Orca after. You shouldn't have to do anything beyond taking it to the dealer and tell them to fix it.


I agree that the retail customer shouldn’t be bothered. This is one of the biggest reasons why I go through authorized dealers.

Btw the dealer tried to fix the problem but, it is a flaw in the modifications that ORCA did to the crossovers.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> Btw the dealer tried to fix the problem but, it is a flaw in the modifications that ORCA did to the crossovers.


So far we haven't determined whether the problem is the crossover or not but either way, that is still the dealers problem to deal with whether they're getting the support they need from Focal or not.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I will address your points tomorrow when I am on a desktop computer but, if all ORCA thinks customer service is to exchange defective parts then we are of 2 totally different opinions of what I considered as premium customer service.


Uhhh, what else did you want them to do? 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> Uhhh, what else did you want them to do?


It is so simple that even a caveman could do it! 

I have said since day 1 that Focal/Orca should contact their authorized dealer in my area & instruct them on how to fix my problem. Then I as a retail consumer, I should drop off my SUV & arrive back to a fixed SUV. Easy Peasy

I shouldn’t feel like I have been in a very long, 3-way Ping Pong game between Focal, Orca & the local authorized dealer.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> So far we haven't determined whether the problem is the crossover or not


The dealer tested it and told me that it was the Focal crossovers. I have no reason to doubt him.

The Focal's passive crossover was originally built to be powered by a 2 channel amplifier. 

Due to the wild ohm level swing and some Class D amplifiers not be able to handle the drop to 0.8 ohms, ORCA modified Focal's passive crossovers to bi-amp with a 4 channel amplifier.

My guess is that the unmodified 2 channel crossovers had some built in crossover lap and now being bi-amped the channels aren't 100% isolated from each other.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> And then you posted in here. And you got what I would consider an "official" response from Orca on a path to resolution. (I have no idea if other conversations have taken place via PM, email or other means of communication.) I suspect that if your dealer contacted Orca, they would likely give them the same exact answer.


The dealer said he contacted Orca and the response that I got was pretty much that Orca it is a design flaw and they wouldn't do anything about it.




rton20s said:


> And Orca has provided you with a path to resolution. I've seen more than just Orca question whether or not the passives could actually be the source for your turn on pop issues. They want to be sure that whatever is done actually corrects the issue.


My feeling about "official" response I got from Orca here was that after I determine exactly what the problem was myself. I could send the defective part in to be judged by Orca to see if they believed it was defective. 




rton20s said:


> I'm not Orca, but likely send the necessary parts to an authorized dealer to perform the necessary testing. If they didn't already have the part in stock.


Believe it or not but, I had better service than this from Maxxsonics. My son's amplifier went into fault mode. I called the dealer and set up a time. We dropped off his truck and picked it up that afternoon with a new amplifier and 100% fully working system.




rton20s said:


> By "fix it" do you mean swap out the crossovers to confirm that the originals are defective? Is that really too much to ask of your installer? Or of you, if you don't want to go back to the installer?


As I have said, the installer did troubleshoot. They told me to contact Focal. 




rton20s said:


> What do you expect Orca to do? Should cobb fly out personally to swap the passive crossovers? I understand your frustration, but refusing to take your vehicle back to the dealer or to do the swap yourself while you continue to bump a thread in an attempt to motivate Orca to help you does nothing but make you look bad.


I expect Focal/Orca to have better customer service. I don't care who fixes my problem (as long as it isn't me). I have taken the vehicle back and they told me to contact Focal.

If I have to find and fix the problem myself, then I am definitely bumping the right thread! And I couldn't possibly care less of how I look.




rton20s said:


> So, swap the passives with your spares. That should confirm whether it is an issue with the crossovers or if it is something else in the system.


Focal's authorized dealer told me that it was Focal's passive crossovers. Surely Focal will believe their dealer's opinion more than mine?



My question to you rton20 is what is your connection to Focal or Orca? Are you a dealer, are they sponsoring you or anything else?


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

rton20s said:


> Agreed. Especially since, if you're dealing with Focal in the US, you are dealing with Orca. Orca has an excellent track record for customer support. Also, the product in question in the OP isn't a product that is supported in the US, but has shown up at a non-authorized (for this product) US vendor. Don't let this thread be a reason to dissuade you from using any of the products Orca supports.


This is the point I am confused with, you mention these products were not supported in the US, but they were pretty obviously sold to Killerbox through an authorized dealer. *EDIT: You may have been refering to the wiring kits in the OP, not these particular speakers?*

If you read the links he's posted up here, Nick Wingate pretty clearly states there is a design flaw in the passive network:



Mitsu1grn said:


> Greetings All!!
> 
> What we have run into with the 165 KRX3 is that a lot of amplifiers in the market today,( especially those that are based on full range class D), will not run this system. The reason behind this is an ohm load swing in the bass driver around 150hz. When the system is pushed, the impedance drop is to around .8 ohms stereo. Now, it is not for very long, but some of the amplifiers out there will not handle this and the go into protection.
> 
> ...


So I'm curious, did Orca indeed sell these sets through authorized dealers? If so, I'd be a little upset as well.

Orca has been good to me in the past, and I've never owned any Focal products, but this wouldn't sit right with me either. I might not know all the details though...?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQram said:


> This is the point I am confused with, you mention these products were not supported in the US, but they were pretty obviously sold to Killerbox through an authorized dealer. *EDIT: You may have been refering to the wiring kits in the OP, not these particular speakers?*
> 
> If you read the links he's posted up here, Nick Wingate pretty clearly states there is a design flaw in the passive network:
> 
> ...


Everything purchased by me was purchased through Focal Authorized Dealers and installed through a Focal Authorized Dealer. 

I have also provided Orca with the invoice dates and invoice numbers. 

All eight separate sets of speakers are still in the warranty periods. Four sets are installed in my SUV and four sets are spares in my climate controlled closet.

The spare sets were purchased because I normally keep my vehicles for very long times and I will have spare parts to keep my stuff running properly, when the manufactures don't.


And before anyone thinks I have any type of alternative motive, I will give full disclosure: 

I don't work in any shape, form or fashion in any audio business. I have no close friends in the business either. 

I have never even been to a car stereo sound competition or electronics show. 

I purchased my first custom car stereo over 30+ years ago and still own my system from 25+ years ago. I am 100% a retail customer and I will not be happy until my system is functioning properly.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

KillerBox said:


> Everything purchased by me was purchased through Focal Authorized Dealers and installed through a Focal Authorized Dealer.
> 
> I have also provided Orca with the invoice dates and invoice numbers.
> 
> ...


Yes, you've made all that pretty clear a few times. My reply was directed at rton20s, not you. Not sure why you quoted me?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQram said:


> Yes, you've made all that pretty clear a few times. My reply was directed at rton20s, not you. Not sure why you quoted me?


Sorry SQram, it was a mistake on my part.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Lot's of replies since last night, so I'll start with the ones that addressed or replied to me specifically. 



KillerBox said:


> The dealer said he contacted Orca and the response that I got was pretty much that Orca it is a design flaw and they wouldn't do anything about it.


What the dealer told you and what you have heard directly from Orca do not coincide. Orca replied here because you piggybacked onto someone else's post. You've been provided what seems to be a very simple path to resolution. 

Make an appointment with your dealer.



KillerBox said:


> My feeling about "official" response I got from Orca here was that after I determine exactly what the problem was myself. I could send the defective part in to be judged by Orca to see if they believed it was defective.


I suggested that you do it yourself because you seemed unwilling to go back to your dealer. 

Make an appointment with your dealer.



KillerBox said:


> Believe it or not but, I had better service than this from Maxxsonics. My son's amplifier went into fault mode. I called the dealer and set up a time. We dropped off his truck and picked it up that afternoon with a new amplifier and 100% fully working system.


That is great. Similar stories can probably be said for most brands. Every issue I have ever had with an Orca supported product has been addressed quickly and to my satisfaction. In some instances through the dealer I purchased from, in others by doing my own testing at Orca's request. This was done for MY CONVENIENCE, not theirs.

Make an appointment with your dealer.



KillerBox said:


> As I have said, the installer did troubleshoot. They told me to contact Focal.


In my opinion, this is a failure on the dealer's part. They should be the one dealing with you and Focal. They shouldn't be washing their hands of their install and telling you to contact the manufacturer. 

Make an appointment with your dealer.



KillerBox said:


> I expect Focal/Orca to have better customer service. I don't care who fixes my problem (as long as it isn't me). I have taken the vehicle back and they told me to contact Focal.
> 
> If I have to find and fix the problem myself, then I am definitely bumping the right thread! And I couldn't possibly care less of how I look.


I'm not sure how you look to others, but for me you look like a petulant child. Not very different from my 3 year old when he hasn't had enough sleep. 

Make an appointment with your dealer.



KillerBox said:


> Focal's authorized dealer told me that it was Focal's passive crossovers. Surely Focal will believe their dealer's opinion more than mine?


I am sure Focal/Orca will believe the dealer once they have done the testing/equipment swap they have asked for. 

Make an appointment with your dealer.



KillerBox said:


> My question to you rton20 is what is your connection to Focal or Orca? Are you a dealer, are they sponsoring you or anything else?


My only connection is that I own Illusion, Mosconi and Raven products. Oh, and a pair of Focal tweeter cups. I am not a dealer and I am not sponsored by Orca in any way. I do know cobb personally, and I met him through his role at Orca. 



SQram said:


> This is the point I am confused with, you mention these products were not supported in the US, but they were pretty obviously sold to Killerbox through an authorized dealer. *EDIT: You may have been refering to the wiring kits in the OP, not these particular speakers?*


I deleted the rest of you post, because my post was in regard to the OP purchasing the amp kit. As you caught in your edit.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

In case you missed it somehow, the dealer has already troubleshooted my problem on more than one occasion. 

THEY SAID IT IS A DESIGN PROBLEM WITH FOCAL'S PASSIVE CROSSOVERS!

So I will not waste my time going to see them again until Focal instructs them on how to fix it!


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

rton20s said:


> I deleted the rest of you post, because my post was in regard to the OP purchasing the amp kit. As you caught in your edit.


You deleted the most important part in regards to the current conversation. The Elephant in the room:



Mitsu1grn said:


> Greetings All!!
> 
> What we have run into with the 165 KRX3 is that a lot of amplifiers in the market today,( especially those that are based on full range class D), will not run this system. The reason behind this is an ohm load swing in the bass driver around 150hz. When the system is pushed, the impedance drop is to around .8 ohms stereo. Now, it is not for very long, but some of the amplifiers out there will not handle this and the go into protection.
> 
> ...


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Wouldn't it be a lot easier for Focal/Orca to call their own dealer with a solution than would be for me to drive 60 miles round trip to hear that I need to contact Focal again?

But if getting a customer upset and these type of threads spreading is easier than picking up the phone to their dealer, then by all means I am fully prepared to continue & in the end no one will win.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SQram said:


> You deleted the most important part in regards to the current conversation. The Elephant in the room:


I didn't delete the most important part. I deleted the part that was not relevant to the post of mine that you quoted. 

I've addressed KillerBox directly with the issues that he is having. The more he posts, the more I realize that he cares less about having the problem resolved and more about getting attention because people aren't bending over backward to cater to him.


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## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

You're kind of drifting off here. Might be a good time to take a step back.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> The manufacture hasn’t exchanged anything, so why do you automatically assume so? The manufacture hasn’t done anything except send me a message.
> 
> So what is your connection to Focal or Orca? Are they sponsoring you or something else?
> 
> And to be honest, I don’t care how they fix or who fixes it (besides me). So until I get my product working properly, I will say what I please, as many times as I please and on any horse that I choose.


I have no vested interest in Orca. I do, however, dislike whiny entitled individuals. Screaming and shouting like a child won't get you any resolution. As rton said, make an appointment with your dealer. Yes, put in the effort of driving. That's life. Deal with it.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Angrywhopper said:


> I have no vested interest in Orca. I do, however, dislike whiny entitled individuals. Screaming and shouting like a child won't get you any resolution. As rton said, make an appointment with your dealer. Yes, put in the effort of driving. That's life. Deal with it.


We can keep this up forever. I will make an appointment as soon as Focal tells my dealer how to fix my problem.

Also, I could say some negative and childish things too. But, you carry on because everyone deserves to be a tough guy once in their lives.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> I didn't delete the most important part. I deleted the part that was not relevant to the post of mine that you quoted.
> 
> I've addressed KillerBox directly with the issues that he is having. The more he posts, the more I realize that he cares less about having the problem resolved and more about getting attention because people aren't bending over backward to cater to him.


You did delete the most important part. 

Orca is not wanting to fix my problem because their modifications to the passive crossovers is what it causing it.


----------



## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

rton20s said:


> I didn't delete the most important part. I deleted the part that was not relevant to the post of mine that you quoted.
> 
> I've addressed KillerBox directly with the issues that he is having. The more he posts, the more I realize that he cares less about having the problem resolved and more about getting attention because people aren't bending over backward to cater to him.


You didn't address the fact that Focal (and Orca) clearly admit the passive has a design flaw and can only be used with select amplifiers?

The whining was driving me nuts too which I why I posted in here, but if I were in his boots, or even the shops boots, I'd point the finger back at Focal/Orca as well.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> You did delete the most important part.


No I didn't. Your whining was not relevant to my specific post that was quoted. I stated that I was specifically talking about the OP (Original Poster) and was responding to Angrywhopper who was also specifically talking about the OP.












KillerBox said:


> Orca is not wanting to fix my problem because their modifications to the passive crossovers is what it causing it.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SQram said:


> You didn't address the fact that Focal (and Orca) clearly admit the passive has a design flaw and can only be used with select amplifiers?


Nor would I. That post wasn't about KillerBox or his situation. That is why we quote posts when we reply. Context.



SQram said:


> The whining was driving me nuts too which I why I posted in here, but if I were in his boots, or even the shops boots, I'd point the finger back at Focal/Orca as well.


Let me make this a little easier to follow for those getting lost in the fray...



cobb2819 said:


> I am not at all sure who you spoke with about this that said what you are claiming, but *I spoke with our engineer* and his explanation was exactly as I had though. See below. With regard to "buy the new..." this would also not have been correct as your tweeters are not compatible with the new crossover, so you would have to buy the new crossovers and tweeters, which also wouldn't fix your turn on pop issue.
> 
> "A turn on pop is caused by a DC voltage step.
> A DC blocking capacitor allows the leading edge of the pulse to pass through because the step is an AC event.
> ...





cobb2819 said:


> *I have been speaking with out engineer about this* with the information you have provided to me, about how this is possibly caused by the passive networks. All crossovers were modified exactly the same way, and *your set seem to be the ones misbehaving and causing a pop.*
> 
> My first suggestion would be to have the install *swap them with your spare set and see if the issue goes away. If it does, they are covered under warranty* due to your record keeping, and use of proper channels. *If the issue does not go away, then it isn't a fault of the crossover directly*, and something else is misbehaving with the overall install.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

I don't know how many times that I have to say this but, here we go again. 

The dealer tested it and the is a problem is with Focal's passive crossovers. 

The dealer also says they can't do anything else from their end because Orca tells them that it couldn't possibly be caused by the crossovers.

Orca definitely modified Focal's passive crossovers themselves. 

I informed cobb2819 of this by a private message.


Orca seems to have no interest in fixing my crossovers because of their modifications and Focal doesn't produce them anymore.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I sent you a PM Cobb2819
> 
> To answer everyone's questions, turn on pop only happens when you wire bi-amp Focal's passive crossover to 4 different amplifier channels.
> 
> ...


My quote from 3 weeks ago


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

rton20s said:


> Nor would I. That post wasn't about KillerBox or his situation. That is why we quote posts when we reply. Context.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me make this a little easier to follow for those getting lost in the fray...


I'm not lost in the fray. I work as an electrical engineer and do both design and fault analysis for a living. 

What you quoted suggests the passive is injecting a disturbance directly into the system which we all know is not possible, what he didn't say (and is probably the case) is that the passive may be presenting an unstable "load" to the amplifier causing it to malfunction or go into protect on start up. It looks as though the channels are bridged on his 6 channel, so it will be even more sensitive to low impedances. Nick clearly states that low impedances are the root of the issues in the passives, and why they offered a "fix" as he stated.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I guess I am just a glutton for punishment. 



KillerBox said:


> I don't know how many times that I have to say this but, here we go again.
> 
> The dealer tested it and the is a problem is with Focal's passive crossovers.


Did the dealer ever test the system with a spare set of the same passive crossovers? Yours or theirs? This has never been made clear. Just a repetitious, "it has been tested, the crossovers are at fault." Without any further explanation.



KillerBox said:


> The dealer also says they can't do anything else from their end because Orca tells them that it couldn't possibly be caused by the crossovers.


See my previous question.



KillerBox said:


> Orca definitely modified Focal's passive crossovers themselves.
> 
> I informed cobb2819 of this by a private message.


Is there a point to that? They were attempting to address a SEPARATE ISSUE where an impedance dip could cause issues with some amps (especially class D). 



KillerBox said:


> Orca seems to have no interest in fixing my crossovers because of their modifications and Focal doesn't produce them anymore.


You know that isn't true and evidence to the contrary has been posted in this thread several times.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Did the dealer ever test the system with a spare set of the same passive crossovers? Yours or theirs? This has never been made clear. Just a repetitious, "it has been tested, the crossovers are at fault." Without any further explanation.


They didn't say they used a spare set of the same passive crossovers and I know they didn't use mine. They did take the passive crossovers out of the signal chain and no more turn on pop.




rton20s said:


> Is there a point to that? They were attempting to address a SEPARATE ISSUE where an impedance dip could cause issues with some amps (especially class D).


I think the modification is the heart of the problem but, all of this is above my pay grade. My best guess each side of the amplifier might be turning on at sightly different times and they are not 100% isolated in the crossover. 





rton20s said:


> You know that isn't true and evidence to the contrary has been posted in this thread several times.


Hogwash! As far as I know, no one from Focal or Orca has contacted my dealer to get my problem corrected. All I have heard is lip service.


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## charles.beener (Mar 31, 2016)

I'd expect the manufacturer to make this right.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

I would like to ask a simple question, or maybe questions. 

1) Who, at Orca, did you speak with regarding this when the install was performed, that explained to you that the passive crossover networks were modified improperly to cause a turn on pop. 

2) If this were a design flaw, why would we have modified thousands of crossovers without a change in the design after so many years?

3) In all of the troubleshooting, and keeping in mind that the crossover mod was performed to eliminate a problem common to class D amps, did you ever try using an amplifier that wasn't a class D amp?

4) If you feel the Bi-Amp modification is at fault, did the dealer try running the crossovers with a jumper between the input terminals? This would effectively remove the Bi-Amp modification and return it to factory. 

I ask these questions because you say that the fault is ours, but you are the only reported (to my knowledge) case of turn on pop " caused by our design flaw ", and i just found out about it in this thread, not when the install was performed. I am not trying to be difficult, but you are asking for a solution that does not exist without trying to troubleshoot, and being able to answer the questions i've been asking. I suggest that I blindly call a retailer, about an install that was performed a year ago, and tell them how to fix it, when a fix isn't simple.

As a consumer, which I also am, I never would have signed for the release of my vehicle until the pop was solved, and I think every person in this thread agrees with that. 

Another option is, and a LOT of people here will agree and based on things as you have explained, run the 3-Way system active, without the passives, get a proper processor that will support ALL of the channels you need, and have the system professionally tuned. This eliminated the pop, as you have explained that is "caused by the passives design flaw", and give your far more capability than passives will allow.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SQram said:


> What you quoted suggests the passive is injecting a disturbance directly into the system which we all know is not possible, what he didn't say (and is probably the case) is that the passive may be presenting an unstable "load" to the amplifier causing it to malfunction or go into protect on start up. It looks as though the channels are bridged on his 6 channel, so it will be even more sensitive to low impedances. Nick clearly states that low impedances are the root of the issues in the passives, and why they offered a "fix" as he stated.


So what you're saying is, that a quick study of a picture provided by the consumer, shows a possible/probable system design flaw that might be caused by the amplifiers protection circuity? So you're saying that maybe switching to a more stable amplifier that is not bridged might actually be the key to this problem? Interesting. All assuming that amps are bridged, that is.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

cobb2819 said:


> So what you're saying is, that a quick study of a picture provided by the consumer, shows a possible/probable system design flaw that might be caused by the amplifiers protection circuity? So you're saying that maybe switching to a more stable amplifier that is not bridged might actually be the key to this problem? Interesting. All assuming that amps are bridged, that is.


No, I didn't say any of that. Nick Wingate mentioned a design flaw and "fix" in another thread. I didn't suggest switching amps, I suggested a possible theory as to what causes the amp to pop. KillerBox has stated several times that the passives have been removed and the system works fine in the same configuration. This was done at the authorized dealer.

I don't have any beef in this, I was offering suggestions. Orca has always been good to me.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SQram said:


> No, I didn't say any of that. Nick Wingate mentioned a design flaw and "fix" in another thread. I didn't suggest switching amps, I suggested a possible theory as to what causes the amp to pop. KillerBox has stated several times that the passives have been removed and the system works fine in the same configuration. This was done at the authorized dealer.
> 
> I don't have any beef in this, I was offering suggestions. Orca has always been good to me.


No man, I'm impressed that you caught that. What you are explaining would make complete sense as to what is going on, if it is indeed wired that way.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> The dealer tested it and told me that it was the Focal crossovers. I have no reason to doubt him.


If you're confident in the dealer knowing it's the crossover then why didn't they try one of your extras? Or, in the amount of time you've been posting in this thread you could have done this yourself. Seems at this point to be the simplest way to know what the problem is.


KillerBox said:


> Believe it or not but, I had better service than this from Maxxsonics. My son's amplifier went into fault mode. I called the dealer and set up a time. We dropped off his truck and picked it up that afternoon with a new amplifier and 100% fully working system.


You got better service from a Maxxsonics dealer, not Maxxsonics. Kind of like you getting bad service from a Focal dealer, not Focal.





> As I have said, the installer did troubleshoot. They told me to contact Focal.


That right there is your biggest problem. If they sold and installed the equipment it's their job to make sure everything is right before giving back your car. They should never give you an improperly working system and then tell you to contact the manufacturer about fixing it. The dealer is who should be fixing it and the dealer is who you should be blaming. 




> I have taken the vehicle back and they told me to contact Focal.


Again, the dealer should never tell you that, the dealer is the problem.




KillerBox said:


> The dealer also says they can't do anything else from their end because Orca tells them that it couldn't possibly be caused by the crossovers.


There is a lot of things the dealer could be doing, they just don't seem to want to do anything other than shift the blame to Focal.


----------



## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

cobb2819 said:


> No man, I'm impressed that you caught that. What you are explaining would make complete sense as to what is going on, if it is indeed wired that way.




Ahh gotcha. Just a theory. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> 1) Who, at Orca, did you speak with regarding this when the install was performed, that explained to you that the passive crossover networks were modified improperly to cause a turn on pop.


As I have previously stated, I talked to Focal’s authorized retailer. He informed me that the crossovers were causing the turn on pop. I don’t know who he talked to at Focal because I am not privy to that information.



cobb2819 said:


> 2) If this were a design flaw, why would we have modified thousands of crossovers without a change in the design after so many years?


I don’t know. You tell me why I still have turn on pop after taking my SUV many times to an authorized retailer to get it fixed?



cobb2819 said:


> 3) In all of the troubleshooting, and keeping in mind that the crossover mod was performed to eliminate a problem common to class D amps, did you ever try using an amplifier that wasn't a class D amp?


As far as I know, only my class D Arc Audio xDI 1200.6 amps were used in troubleshooting. If it is only my amps, how come no other of the Focal passive crossovers in my system have the turn on pop? 



cobb2819 said:


> 4) If you feel the Bi-Amp modification is at fault, did the dealer try running the crossovers with a jumper between the input terminals? This would effectively remove the Bi-Amp modification and return it to factory.


Funny that you ask this question, my first set of Focal 165KRX3 came with the bi-amp modification but, without the bi-amp modification added to the product manual. 

So I ran the Focal 165KRX3 with a jumper on just two channels until the dealer found out that the wild ohm swing was putting the amplifier into protection mode. But with a jumper on two channels, I had no turn on pop.



cobb2819 said:


> I ask these questions because you say that the fault is ours, but you are the only reported (to my knowledge) case of turn on pop "caused by our design flaw ", and i just found out about it in this thread, not when the install was performed. I am not trying to be difficult, but you are asking for a solution that does not exist without trying to troubleshoot, and being able to answer the questions i've been asking. I suggest that I blindly call a retailer, about an install that was performed a year ago, and tell them how to fix it, when a fix isn't simple.


Clearly the fault isn’t mine why the system has a turn on pop and isn’t my Focal equipment still under warranty?



cobb2819 said:


> As a consumer, which I also am, I never would have signed for the release of my vehicle until the pop was solved, and I think every person in this thread agrees with that.


When I paid the dealer, I didn’t have a turn on pop because I wasn’t bi-amping the Focal 165KRX3. 

It wasn’t until after a couple of weeks, that the amp was going into fault mode that we found about the wild ohm swing. So at that time, they installed a third Arc Audio xDI 1200.6 just to because I didn’t have anymore available channels to use to bi-amp. 



cobb2819 said:


> Another option is, and a LOT of people here will agree and based on things as you have explained, run the 3-Way system active, without the passives, get a proper processor that will support ALL of the channels you need, and have the system professionally tuned. This eliminated the pop, as you have explained that is "caused by the passives design flaw", and give your far more capability than passives will allow.


Show me a “proper processor” that has enough channels for a 7.2 system with steering logic for a center channel and I will go completely active! I have 20 speakers (if you include the two subwoofers). Until then, please give me passive crossovers that don’t cause my turn on pop noise.



cobb2819 said:


> So what you're saying is, that a quick study of a picture provided by the consumer, shows a possible/probable system design flaw that might be caused by the amplifiers protection circuity? So you're saying that maybe switching to a more stable amplifier that is not bridged might actually be the key to this problem? Interesting. All assuming that amps are bridged, that is.


The only amplifier channels that are bridged are the channels going to the subwoofers. The bottom amp runs nothing but, the Focal 165KRX3. The top amps run the two subwoofers, the center channel Focal ES 100K, the rear door Focal ES 165K and the speakers behind the 3rd seating row Focal ES 100K.



ca90ss said:


> If you're confident in the dealer knowing it's the crossover then why didn't they try one of your extras? Or, in the amount of time you've been posting in this thread you could have done this yourself. Seems at this point to be the simplest way to know what the problem is.


I don’t have a lot of time of free time to diagnosis problems but, I agree because Focal Customer Support is not doing anything for me. 

So this thread and others are perfect to inform future potential buyers so they can make informed decisions.




ca90ss said:


> You got better service from a Maxxsonics dealer, not Maxxsonics. Kind of like you getting bad service from a Focal dealer, not Focal.


3 years ago I would thought that you were pulling my leg, if you told me that Maxxsonics Service and Dealer Network had better service than Focal Service and Dealer Network!




ca90ss said:


> That right there is your biggest problem. If they sold and installed the equipment it's their job to make sure everything is right before giving back your car. They should never give you an improperly working system and then tell you to contact the manufacturer about fixing it. The dealer is who should be fixing it and the dealer is who you should be blaming.


When I paid the dealer, I didn’t have a turn on pop because I wasn’t bi-amping the Focal 165KRX3. 

It wasn’t until after a couple of weeks, that the amp was going into fault mode that we found about the wild ohm swing. So at that time, they installed a third Arc Audio xDI 1200.6 just to because I didn’t have anymore available channels to use to bi-amp. 



ca90ss said:


> Again, the dealer should never tell you that, the dealer is the problem.


Maxxsonics Service and Dealer Network wins a second time?




ca90ss said:


> There is a lot of things the dealer could be doing, they just don't seem to want to do anything other than shift the blame to Focal.


Maxxsonics Service and Dealer Network won three in a row?



I think I have answered everyone’s comments and questions. So in conclusion I would like to state, the Focal’s Service and Dealer Network has been very little help to me. 

In my opinion, Focal’s Customer Service looks for loopholes on how not warranty or take care of customers problems. Also in my opinion, Focal’s Authorized Network has little or no control over Focal’s Authorized Dealers installation quality.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

KillerBox said:


> The only amplifier channels that are bridged are the channels going to the subwoofers. The bottom amp runs nothing but, the Focal 165KRX3. The top amps run the two subwoofers, the center channel Focal ES 100K, the rear door Focal ES 165K and the speakers behind the 3rd seating row Focal ES 100K.


My mistake, just a guess based off your pictures. I stand corrected.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> 3 years ago I would thought that you were pulling my leg, if you told me that Maxxsonics Service and Dealer Network had better service than Focal Service and Dealer Network!
> 
> 
> Maxxsonics Service and Dealer Network wins a second time?
> ...


You have experience with one Focal dealer out of how many and are bashing the brand over a single bad dealer experience. There are bad dealers for every brand, you just happened to find one for Focal, it sucks but it happens. 

Swap the crossovers, have your dealer swap the crossovers or find a different dealer. If you're not willing to do one of those things I don't see how you expect to get your problem fixed.


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## GreatLaBroski (Jan 20, 2018)

Holy unsub


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> You have experience with one Focal dealer out of how many and are bashing the brand over a single bad dealer experience. There are bad dealers for every brand, you just happened to find one for Focal, it sucks but it happens.
> 
> Swap the crossovers, have your dealer swap the crossovers or find a different dealer. If you're not willing to do one of those things I don't see how you expect to get your problem fixed.


Focal has no more dealers in a 100 mile radius from where I live. 

The one dealer in my area says the problem is the crossovers for me to contact Focal and you see how successful that has been.

So I will eventually find the time to correct the problem on my own. 

Thank you for your help with this ca90ss!


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SQram said:


> Ahh gotcha. Just a theory.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Theories are a good basis for troubleshooting, and I like theories. This is why forums are still a good thing in my mind. 

It looks like the theory doesn't hold in this case, but it was still a good catch.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> So I will eventually find the time to correct the problem on my own.
> 
> Thank you for your help with this ca90ss!


Good, should take all of 20 minutes at the most to swap them out. If you’re still struggling to find that much time you can always take a 5 gallon bucket out to your car and fix it while you take your morning dump.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Good, should take all of 20 minutes at the most to swap them out. If you’re still struggling to find that much time you can always take a 5 gallon bucket out to your car and fix it while you take your morning dump.


:laugh: Good idea because nothing I do ever mechanically goes that quickly. Somehow it always snowballs into something else.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

You have an entire thread of people trying to point you in the right direction, and you refuse to do any troubleshooting. You have extra crossovers, you won't swap them. You found ways to eliminate pop, you won't do them. 



KillerBox said:


> Show me a “proper processor” that has enough channels for a 7.2 system with steering logic for a center channel and I will go completely active! I have 20 speakers (if you include the two subwoofers). Until then, please give me passive crossovers that don’t cause my turn on pop noise.


Mosconi 8ti12 with a little math. It's not a licensed center channel, but it'll do everything most people need. I'm sure there are other 12 channel options out there that will do exactly what you need, without branding. 



KillerBox said:


> As far as I know, only *my* class D Arc Audio xDI 1200.6 amps were used in troubleshooting. If it is only *my* amps, how come no other of the Focal passive crossovers in my system have the turn on pop?


As far as i am aware, your install is the only one with pop, so what is it about your install that is generating this. 

Is the 1200.6 running the KRX3 only being used on 4 channels? This can cause odd situations in amplifiers, not sure about the Arc protection networks, but it's possible.

I am here, trying to help, but you only want an answer, a fix, and an admission of fault, but you are not willing to try anything that anyone has suggested here. Tech support is just that, support, and that is what we are trying to do, everyone in this thread actually. Are your products under warranty? Yes. Is the warranty handled through the retailer from which you purchased the product? Yes. When the install is maintained by an authorized retailer, you still have your 3 year warranty intact.

In the time you have been on this forum, I'm not sure you even care of much of my time has been spent trying to find answers, but because I have not told you how to fix a problem that I do not believe is our fault, you continue to say our support is horrible. For that , I am sorry. If you will not return to your dealer, who you paid a lot of money to, for a system that is not working properly, for that I am also sorry. There is nothing I can do from here, except guide you through trouble shooting steps. You have extra crossovers, swap them, try a different amp that is not another 1200.6, maybe a nice 4 channel Class AB. 

Your whole basis for this is someone said something a year ago and wiped their hands clean of my install by saying it is someone else fault. You said "they told me to call Focal" and "you see how successful that has been" but you didn't at the time. You waited a year, until this thread popped up, and that strikes me as odd. Here we are, still trying to help you, a lot of people. Again, I am not trying to be difficult, I am trying to help troubleshoot this install just as I would every other install the needs help.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> You have an entire thread of people trying to point you in the right direction, and you refuse to do any troubleshooting. You have extra crossovers, you won't swap them. You found ways to eliminate pop, you won't do them.


I will do the troubleshooting myself and yes I honestly believe that Focal's Customer Support needs some improvements.




cobb2819 said:


> Mosconi 8ti12 with a little math. It's not a licensed center channel, but it'll do everything most people need. I'm sure there are other 12 channel options out there that will do exactly what you need, without branding.


 As far as I know, this processor has no center channel steering logic. I had center channel steering logic since the 1980s and I really don't want to own a system without it.




cobb2819 said:


> As far as i am aware, your install is the only one with pop, so what is it about your install that is generating this.
> 
> 
> Is the 1200.6 running the KRX3 only being used on 4 channels? This can cause odd situations in amplifiers, not sure about the Arc protection networks, but it's possible.


Yes, it is only using 4 channels. 

But, so is the second 1200.6 that runs one sub bridged and the center channel and it has no turn on pop noise. 

Furthermore why would it only do it with the KRX3 Passive Crossovers connected?




cobb2819 said:


> I am here, trying to help, but you only want an answer, a fix, and an admission of fault, but you are not willing to try anything that anyone has suggested here. Tech support is just that, support, and that is what we are trying to do, everyone in this thread actually. Are your products under warranty? Yes. Is the warranty handled through the retailer from which you purchased the product? Yes. When the install is maintained by an authorized retailer, you still have your 3 year warranty intact.


All I want is it to be fixed. I don't care who is at fault or anything else you listed.




cobb2819 said:


> In the time you have been on this forum, I'm not sure you even care of much of my time has been spent trying to find answers, but because I have not told you how to fix a problem that I do not believe is our fault, you continue to say our support is horrible. For that , I am sorry. If you will not return to your dealer, who you paid a lot of money to, for a system that is not working properly, for that I am also sorry. There is nothing I can do from here, except guide you through trouble shooting steps. You have extra crossovers, swap them, try a different amp that is not another 1200.6, maybe a nice 4 channel Class AB.


It has been to the dealer more times than I can count on one hand. Yes, I am not a big fan of Focal's support so far. 

My 3rd row seat is only about 2 inches off of the Class D amps. Based on my previous systems, a +100w x 4 Class AB wouldn't have enough ventilation. 

So it would be easier to find some speakers that didn't have such wild ohm swings.




cobb2819 said:


> Your whole basis for this is someone said something a year ago and wiped their hands clean of my install by saying it is someone else fault. You said "they told me to call Focal" and "you see how successful that has been" but you didn't at the time. You waited a year, until this thread popped up, and that strikes me as odd. Here we are, still trying to help you, a lot of people. Again, I am not trying to be difficult, I am trying to help troubleshoot this install just as I would every other install the needs help.


I didn't contact Focal right away because after dealing with my SUV staying at the install shop for 4 months for the initial install, then another month of troubleshooting and installing the third amp because of the ohm swings, then after they kept it another three weeks because the brand new HO alternator went out and then another two weeks to diagnosis the turn on pop noise. 

So nothing odd other than I wanted to finally enjoy listening to it! In case you don't believe any part of this story, I will send you the Toyota maintenance records that shows my SUV was driven less than 4,000 miles last year and almost no miles for 6 months straight.

So maybe now you can understand my reluctance to take it back for another couple of weeks to hear the same story?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> When the install is maintained by an authorized retailer, you still have your 3 year warranty intact.


For us non-professionals, what exactly does this mean? 

Does it mean if I maintain my system, then my 3 year warranty is no longer any good? 

And in that case, wouldn't changing components be classified as maintaining?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Since you seem to be communicating and somewhat willing to work with cobb2819 at this point, I will not address the rest of your post. 



KillerBox said:


> As far as I know, this processor has no center channel steering logic. I had center channel steering logic since the 1980s and I really don't want to own a system without it.


On the DSP front, you already have the MS8 to handle all of your center channel steering and surround processing. That DSP is sending out 8 channels of processed/upmixed signal. You could always piggyback off of that processor to handle any additional active crossover needs you might have. If you don't want to spend the money an an 8to12 Pro or Aerospace, there are lower cost options like the miniDSP C-DSP 8x12. 

If you do decide to piggyback, I would run all 8 channels into the second DSP to assure that all drivers get the same additional delay created by the second processor.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> For us non-professionals, what exactly does this mean?
> 
> Does it mean if I maintain my system, then my 3 year warranty is no longer any good?
> 
> And in that case, wouldn't changing components be classified as maintaining?


I would like to clear up these questions before I void my warranty by changing components.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I would like to clear up these questions before I void my warranty by changing components.


it seems like it means if anyone but an authorized focal dealer messes with anything in the install, the warranty is void


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> it seems like it means if anyone but an authorized focal dealer messes with anything in the install, the warranty is void


This.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> This.


is this actually enforceable?

'Warranty Void If Removed' Stickers Are Illegal, FTC Says | Fortune


https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/ne9qdq/warranty-void-if-removed-stickers-illegal-ftc


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> When the install is maintained by an authorized retailer, you still have your 3 year warranty intact.





KillerBox said:


> For us non-professionals, what exactly does this mean?
> 
> Does it mean if I maintain my system, then my 3 year warranty is no longer any good?
> 
> And in that case, wouldn't changing components be classified as maintaining?





KillerBox said:


> I would like to clear up these questions before I void my warranty by changing components.





SkizeR said:


> it seems like it means if anyone but an authorized focal dealer messes with anything in the install, the warranty is void





cobb2819 said:


> This.


This is one of the things that I dislike about Focal’s Service. In my opinion, Focal’s Customer Support could have spent 5 minutes calling the local Authorized Dealer and saying *“hey buddy please check out this car for me again.” *

*But instead Focal’s Customer Service seems to be for two main functions: 

1. Making sure you bought from Authorized USA only Dealers.
2. Then looking for loopholes on something the customer did incorrectly.*

As I told Cobb2819 in a private message, I am not out to beat anyone out of anything. If I was then I wouldn’t have so many spare BNIB Focal speaker sets purchased from an Authorized Dealer in my closet.

I just wanted Focal’s Customer Support to call the local dealer and ask him to look at my system for the fourth time while in direct contact with Focal's Customer Support. But, I guess in the end this was easier for Focal's Customer Support.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

OK, so that is what *you* want Focal (Orca) to do. I don't work in tech support, but I have used tech support through multiple car audio companies. Service tickets and return authorizations typically have to come from authorized dealers. (There have been exceptions, especially when it is a continuing issue.) This helps keep all of the paperwork in order and assures that the procedures set forth in the warranty agreement are followed. This may be part of why cobb2819 has asked you multiple times to contact the authorized dealer who sold you the product and performed the install. 

I guess, I am still left wondering... Why are you so averse to contacting your dealer to make the appointment?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> I guess, I am still left wondering... Why are you so averse to contacting your dealer to make the appointment?


*I have dropped my SUV off 3 times for this same issue.* The last time, they said that they couldn't do anything else because it is in the passive crossovers themselves and to contact Focal.

The dealer is only open Monday - Friday and is 60 miles round trip from my house. So I don't want to catch rides and miss work again to hear they can't do anything for me again.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> is this actually enforceable?
> 
> 'Warranty Void If Removed' Stickers Are Illegal, FTC Says | Fortune
> 
> ...


Since it is a warranty "perk" that is offered on top of the manufacturer warranty, yes, we can enforce it. We are not talking about voiding the warranty, just the additional warranty if installed by and maintained by an authorized retailer.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> Since it is a warranty "perk" that is offered on top of the manufacturer warranty, yes, we can enforce it. We are not talking about voiding the warranty, just the additional warranty if installed by and maintained by an authorized retailer.


Ahh okay. I was wondering how well that "warranty void of removed is illegal" actually holds up. I guess this is different though

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

I'm almost afraid to ask, especially if i missed it in one of the previous posts.

Have you toubleshooted..troubleshot...this to figure out if its one crossover or both that is causing this? And does the one crossover that is the culprit cause turn on pop when used on both amp channels? 

IOW is it repeatable and predictable on a single bad passive XO? Or is it happening on every one of your many passive XO's?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> *I have dropped my SUV off 3 times for this same issue.* The last time, they said that they couldn't do anything else because it is in the passive crossovers themselves and to contact Focal.
> 
> The dealer is only open Monday - Friday and is 60 miles round trip from my house. So I don't want to catch rides and miss work again to hear they can't do anything for me again.


We're going around in circles. No matter what, to get this issue resolved, it sounds like you're going to have to take it back to the dealer/installer. Call them. Make the appointment. Tell them you have been in contact with Orca and that is what they instructed you to do. Tell the dealer to contact Orca prior to the appointment to confirm if you'd like. Explain the travel situation as well to see what they can do to expedite the trouble shooting and fix.

I get it. You're frustrated. You don't want to make the trip. I would be in the same position. Except, I would recognize that Focal (Orca) has provided me a path to finally get this resolved. And while you are responsible to get the vehicle to your installer, it is the installers responsibility (with Orca's help and support) to troubleshoot the issue and provide you a resolution. 

YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO FIND A FIX FOR A SYSTEM THAT NEVER SHOULD HAVE LEFT THE INSTALLER'S BAY IN THE FIRST PLACE. Let your installer work it out with the manufacturer.


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## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

cobb2819 said:


> Since it is a warranty "perk" that is offered on top of the manufacturer warranty, yes, we can enforce it. We are not talking about voiding the warranty, just the additional warranty if installed by and maintained by an authorized retailer.


So if Killer tries swapping out the crossovers he loses the additional warranty?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO FIND A FIX FOR A SYSTEM THAT NEVER SHOULD HAVE LEFT THE INSTALLER'S BAY IN THE FIRST PLACE.


I will answer the rest of this when I get back to a computer but, I will try to explain this now. 

When my system was first installed, the dealer nor I knew about the low ohm swing, so I only had two 1200.6 amps installed. The speakers were not bi-amped & I had no turn on pop.

Then after taking it home & only on some songs when I would turn the volume up, the amp would go into protection mode. So I went back to diagnose the problem & I then purchased & they installed a third 1200.6 just to bi-amp the Focal front door Speakers.

When they bi-amped the speakers, I then got the nasty turn on pop.

Btw, the first set of Focal 3-ways were modified by Orca for bi-amp mode but, they did not have the added page in the manual. The second set were modified by Orca & the extra page was added to the manual.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)




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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> I'm almost afraid to ask, especially if i missed it in one of the previous posts.
> Have you toubleshooted..troubleshot...this to figure out if its one crossover or both that is causing this? And does the one crossover that is the culprit cause turn on pop when used on both amp channels?
> IOW is it repeatable and predictable on a single bad passive XO? Or is it happening on every one of your many passive XO's?


Don’t be afraid to ask me anything because I am an open book. 

To answer your questions:

1.) The turn on pop noise is only on the Focal KRX3 that are bi-amped. The Focal KRX3 are only bi-amped because even though they are rated at 4 ohms, they dip down to a very low ohm level.

2.) The turn on pop noise was not present until the Focal KRX3 were bi-amped.

3.) The turn on pop noise is on both the left and right side Focal KRX3. So it is not a single crossover.

4.) The turn on pop noise happens in both the left and right side Focal KRX3 everytime I turn on the headunit. 

5.) The Authorized Focal dealer that installed my system troubleshooted. And my understanding is the turn on pop noise was not present on a test speaker, when the passive crossovers were not bi-amped and when the passive crossovers were bypassed.

6.) Before the dealer realized it was the passive crossovers. He unplugged the RCA inputs to the amps. Tried 3 different Arc Audio xDI 1200.6 amps. A diode on the amps remote wire. Test speakers. Not bi-amping the passive crossovers. Bypassing the passive crossovers.

7.) The other Focal speakers with their passive crossovers in my system have no turn on pop noise.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> When the install is maintained by an authorized retailer, you still have your 3 year warranty intact.





KillerBox said:


> For us non-professionals, what exactly does this mean?
> 
> Does it mean if I maintain my system, then my 3 year warranty is no longer any good?
> 
> And in that case, wouldn't changing components be classified as maintaining?





KillerBox said:


> I would like to clear up these questions before I void my warranty by changing components.





SkizeR said:


> it seems like it means if anyone but an authorized focal dealer messes with anything in the install, the warranty is void





cobb2819 said:


> This.


This is one of the main things that I dislike about Focal’s Service. In my opinion, Focal’s Customer Support could have spent 5 minutes calling the local Authorized Dealer and saying *“hey buddy please check out this car for me again.” *

But instead *Focal’s Customer Service seems to be for two main functions: 
1. Making sure you bought from Authorized USA only Dealers.
2. Looking for loopholes on something the customer did incorrectly.*

As I told Cobb2819 in a private message, I am not out to beat anyone out of anything. If I was then I wouldn’t have so many spare BNIB Focal speaker sets purchased from an Authorized Dealer in my closet.

I just wanted Focal’s Customer Support to call the local dealer and ask him to look at my system for the fourth time. But, I guess this was easier for Cobb2819.


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## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

This thread seems to be mucked up. I'm getting new post notifications but they're not here nor are the posts I've made.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Bizarroterl said:


> This thread seems to be mucked up. I'm getting new post notifications but they're not here nor are the posts I've made.


I think the thread is working now, if you have your missing posts saved?


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## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

Yeah, it looks to be back.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

KillerBox said:


> Don’t be afraid to ask me anything because I am an open book.
> 
> To answer your questions:
> 
> ...


are you still using the Arc amps? How are they being turned on? I assume you have tried autosense, and a standard remote? How about a relay? How about something to delay the audio signal until the amp is fully on? I know these are are silly basic questions, but a turn on pop should not present this much trouble to fix.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> are you still using the Arc amps? How are they being turned on? I assume you have tried autosense, and a standard remote? How about a relay? How about something to delay the audio signal until the amp is fully on? I know these are are silly basic questions, but a turn on pop should not present this much trouble to fix.


With all do respect, you should read the links that Killerbox posted earlier in the thread, Focal basically admits that this particular set will indeed send certain class D amps into protect due to low impedance with the passive connected. It's absolutely bizarre, and someone should step up and rectify the situation.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

SQram said:


> With all do respect, you should read the links that Killerbox posted earlier in the thread, Focal basically admits that this particular set will indeed send certain class D amps into protect due to low impedance with the passive connected. It's absolutely bizarre, and someone should step up and rectify the situation.


well true, i should, but i was just trying to tick some things off the list to try and solve the turn on pop issue. I did read thru the thread and i did read that there is an issue with the build of the XO and the class D low imp thing.

I did not know the current install involved low imp, or that the amp was going into protect. 

i just thought the guy was trying to solve the turn on pop thing, and was offering suggestions.

If you are saying he wants Focal to fix the XO design, then that has no business in the forums and should be between KB and focal.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> Ahh okay. I was wondering how well that "warranty void of removed is illegal" actually holds up. I guess this is different though
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is essentially in place to keep manufacturers honest. If you lower a car, the engine warranty isn't voided; however, "The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance."


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

miniSQ said:


> well true, i should, but i was just trying to tick some things off the list to try and solve the turn on pop issue. I did read thru the thread and i did read that there is an issue with the build of the XO and the class D low imp thing.
> 
> I did not know the current install involved low imp, or that the amp was going into protect.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying anything on Killerbox's behalf, I'm saying Focal admits there is a problem with the passive crossover/Class D amps. As has been said before, this thread is going around and around in circles. 

Again, I mean that respectfully, not trying to provoke you at all.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

SQram said:


> I'm not saying anything on Killerbox's behalf, I'm saying Focal admits there is a problem with the passive crossover/Class D amps. As has been said before, this thread is going around and around in circles.
> 
> Again, I mean that respectfully, not trying to provoke you at all.


no worries, i'm not provoked, and i have no skin in the game. I have nothing against Focal, Orca or KB. I am just hoping there is maybe a short term solution to the problem while someone figures out a modification to the XO.

I believe the speakers KB owns are no longer in production, so it would have to be a modification to the XO, and not an upgrade to the line.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SQram said:


> I'm not saying anything on Killerbox's behalf, *I'm saying Focal admits there is a problem with the passive crossover/Class D amps.* As has been said before, this thread is going around and around in circles.


The low impedance swings in this kit drop below 1 ohm. This causes issues with the power supply systems in some amps. The Bi-amp modification it done to spread the load between multiple amp channels, keeping the amps within operational range. 

The fact that he has turn on pop, and to the best of my knowledge, the only reported turn on pop reported in the time i've been with Orca, is not because of the crossover bi-amp design, or it would effect all amps or have popped on every crossover. How do we know this isn't a design flaw with the amplifier, since the only amps to have ever popped in his install, are his xdi 6 channel amps, and only when running 4 channels (two unloaded) to our component system. 

There is not a lot we can do until the vehicle is in the possession of the dealer, and that is not up to us.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> This is one of the main things that I dislike about Focal’s Service. In my opinion, Focal’s Customer Support could have spent 5 minutes calling the local Authorized Dealer and saying *“hey buddy please check out this car for me again.” *


Over 2 weeks ago Orca told you to have them swap your crossovers and so far you haven't made any effort to do that. At this point you are the problem. Call your dealer.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> The low impedance swings in this kit drop below 1 ohm. This causes issues with the power supply systems in some amps. The Bi-amp modification it done to spread the load between multiple amp channels, keeping the amps within operational range.
> 
> The fact that he has turn on pop, and to the best of my knowledge, the only reported turn on pop reported in the time i've been with Orca, is not because of the crossover bi-amp design, or it would effect all amps or have popped on every crossover. How do we know this isn't a design flaw with the amplifier, since the only amps to have ever popped in his install, are his xdi 6 channel amps, and only when running 4 channels (two unloaded) to our component system.
> 
> There is not a lot we can do until the vehicle is in the possession of the dealer, and that is not up to us.


As people have said, here we go again in circles. 

As previously discussed, the Focal 165KRX3 speaker system is rated at 4 ohms but, drops to below 1 ohm. So at this point the 165KRX3 passive crossovers were modified by Focal or Focal's distributor in the USA. (I have found out more than I have ever wanted to know about Focal's distribution chain.) 

The passive crossovers were modified because most full range Class D amps can not handle the below 1 ohm drop. I didn't know any of this when I purchased my Focal 165KRX3 speaker system.


1.) Are you saying the *Focal’s Authorized Dealer is mistaken* about the diagnosis of the passive crossovers being my problem?

2.) Anyway you answer question 1, *it is not reassuring me to take my SUV back for the fourth time unless they do something different about my problem.* In case you don’t understand what I have been saying, this is where Focal’s Support should do more.





ca90ss said:


> Over 2 weeks ago Orca told you to have them swap your crossovers and so far you haven't made any effort to do that. At this point you are the problem. Call your dealer.


1.) Orca told me to swap the crossovers but, then followed up with a cryptic message about if I do anything to my system then my 3 year warranty can be voided. As previously stated “Looking for loopholes on something the customer did incorrectly.”

2.) I am not wild about returning my SUV for the same problem for the fourth time unless something changes. So far I haven’t been reassured of anything this time being one bit different.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

This thread is about *FOCAL's POOR CUSTOMER SUPPORT.* I feel like that is what I have received.


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## Mike Bober (Apr 11, 2013)

If your not going to return to dealer just be quiet about it then! Damn!!


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Mike Bober said:


> If your not going to return to dealer just be quiet about it then! Damn!!


How many times should I return it and the dealer telling me to contact Focal before I should say something? 2 times? 3 times? 10 times? 30 times?


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> How many times should I return it and the dealer telling me to contact Focal before I should say something? 2 times? 3 times? 10 times? 30 times?



until the dealer fixes it to your satisfaction. there really shouldn't have to be any customer interaction with focal.


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## Mike Bober (Apr 11, 2013)

KillerBox said:


> How many times should I return it and the dealer telling me to contact Focal before I should say something? 2 times? 3 times? 10 times? 30 times?


Every time you speak going forward your just looking more and more foolish for not listening to the Company trying to help you out with your problem....its not going to fix itself with you whining like a little girl all day. Talk to your installer about scheduling to take care of it with Orca's help or just drop it!


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## 01LSi (Jul 27, 2012)

Wow. Here's what I've read simply. Everyone's so ready to pull the trigger on annoyance and outrage (the forum not working for paid members is fair and actually also just as much an example as this OPs thread is about someone posting something that makes sense, and a decent chunk of people losing their mind afterwards). But it's more like anything slightly reasonable an OP posts gets lots of anger. 

- OP had shop install gear he paid through for authorized dealer which grants him special benefits (warranty on parts and labor). That's the reason people pay!!!! After reading this wow good thing I bought my Focal products off market. I will say though that if I did buy from the dealer I do frequent and have purchased other parts from (amps subs stereos alot) would've made it right one way or another and has warrantied my stuff and done what the OP is asking (which is totally reasonable) so major kudos to ABT electronics audio department and install bay for keeping the bar high it looks like the place this guy took it to is failing him. (Side note: that solid customer service doesn't translate to buying a mattress from there though their policy on that is horrible.)

- Pretty reasonable for him to expect that before he goes once again to this authorized dealer, that by the time he gets there they'll have done all the homework possible / spoken with someone at Focal and know how to take care of it one way or another and be able to communicate that. Not that he should once again go without knowing this for sure. He's already put in the effort of going a couple times and given them the benefit of the doubt. Especially since it's so far away. People are taking a dump on killer. 

- Then he's asking about if his warranty will get voided he doesn't know and it still doesn't sound clear to me even if it will or not but maybe they're speaking privately

Such an overreaction. Real problem. Real attempts that have led to OPs mental exhaustion. True lack of clarity if it's wise for him to start swapping parts and troubleshooting without consequences. Legitimate anger that the dealer hasn't made it right like he should pay, you pay the big bucks to the dealer this kind of stuff so you don't have to create a thread like this one with the headache they do. People are still freaking out at him anyways. He wants to know that the dealer will know what to do to make it right when he gets there, wants them to correspond with Focal. Almost like it's the end of the world.

I could see *generally speaking* how him swapping parts out and the dealer or manufacturer going on a technicality to void and blame and that with his experience he has some hesitation. And not that the customer should always be opposed to guided instruction by the dealer/manufacturer, however OP paid for not just the install, but also the assurance of the warranty to take the headache off of him... Warranty sales pitches are successfully made sales pitches as "Buy this for your peace of mind". That's how you regularly sell warrantied under that banner. That means you don't deal with the stress or headache, you keep your sanity and peace of mind, and someone else will take a bite out of theirs, because you paid them to.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

I am conflicted. Not with Orca or Focal service, but with the Dealer's service. They say they can't fix and it is Focal's fault. But there is a warranty on the product and hopefully a warranty on the install itself. If there is a turn on pop, then the installer is at fault here, especially if he has blown it off and said it was Focal's fault.

I agree with JT here. This never should have gone from customer to manufacturer. This should have just stayed with customer getting satisfactory service from the dealer. If it were me, I would demand that the dealer fix my issue, I have been here 3 times already, and this is the 4th time still with no results. Fix the issue or we will get my lawyers involved, because the dealer is voiding their own warranty on the install. 

Just my .03 cents, 2 for the statement, 1 for inflation.


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## 01LSi (Jul 27, 2012)

SQ Audi said:


> I am conflicted. Not with Orca or Focal service, but with the Dealer's service. They say they can't fix and it is Focal's fault. But there is a warranty on the product and hopefully a warranty on the install itself. If there is a turn on pop, then the installer is at fault here, especially if he has blown it off and said it was Focal's fault.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That analysis sounds about right to me. A lot of us probably have no experience with lawyers or that process whatsoever though unfortunately. And it's an ugly way to coerce a place you'd still maybe want to otherwise keep in good graces (edit) but you just reasonably wish would fulfill the work they sold you on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 01LSi (Jul 27, 2012)

Bdubz said:


> That analysis sounds about right to me. A lot of us probably have no experience with lawyers or that process whatsoever though unfortunately. And it's an ugly way to coerce a place you'd still maybe want to otherwise keep in good graces (edit) but you just reasonably wish would fulfill the work they sold you on.
> 
> Edit another addition - I could easily see how OP would conclude this is a proper form of escalation. And I don't know if I disagree with him. I don't think it should have ever gotten here. Which maybe means that focal should maybe consider not supporting this guy's dealer anymore. Because I think most people would make that logical jump.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> How many times should I return it and the dealer telling me to contact Focal before I should say something? 2 times? 3 times? 10 times? 30 times?


You did contact Focal and they told you to have them swap the crossover. Call your dealer.


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## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

He's been to the dealer several times. The dealer says deal with Focal. Focal says deal with the dealer. He wants Focal to deal with the dealer so that it'll be fixed next time he takes it back in. As it is, they're catch-22'ing him, and it stinks.

It's really simple, and any of us would expect Focal to step up in the same circumstances. All they need to do is communicate with THEIR dealer, come up with a solution, and then have KB bring the vehicle in with assurances his problem will be fixed. They aren't.

Calling KB a poopy head doesn't help and just demonstrates a kindergarten mentality.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Bizarroterl said:


> He's been to the dealer several times. The dealer says deal with Focal. Focal says deal with the dealer. He wants Focal to deal with the dealer so that it'll be fixed next time he takes it back in. As it is, they're catch-22'ing him, and it stinks.
> 
> It's really simple, and any of us would expect Focal to step up in the same circumstances. All they need to do is communicate with THEIR dealer, come up with a solution, and then have KB bring the vehicle in with assurances his problem will be fixed. They aren't.
> 
> Calling KB a poopy head doesn't help and just demonstrates a kindergarten mentality.


Have you not read the thread? Orca offered a solution over 2 weeks ago and he still hasn’t made any effort to call his dealer. In the time it takes him to make a single post here he could of instead made that call. He needs to call the dealer.


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## Mike Bober (Apr 11, 2013)

Bizarroterl said:


> He's been to the dealer several times. The dealer says deal with Focal. Focal says deal with the dealer. He wants Focal to deal with the dealer so that it'll be fixed next time he takes it back in. As it is, they're catch-22'ing him, and it stinks.
> 
> It's really simple, and any of us would expect Focal to step up in the same circumstances. All they need to do is communicate with THEIR dealer, come up with a solution, and then have KB bring the vehicle in with assurances his problem will be fixed. They aren't.
> 
> Calling KB a poopy head doesn't help and just demonstrates a kindergarten mentality.


This from Focal support above (There is not a lot we can do until the vehicle is in the possession of the dealer, and that is not up to us.)


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)




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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Bdubz said:


> Wow. Here's what I've read simply. Everyone's so ready to pull the trigger on annoyance and outrage (the forum not working for paid members is fair and actually also just as much an example as this OPs thread is about someone posting something that makes sense, and a decent chunk of people losing their mind afterwards). But it's more like anything slightly reasonable an OP posts gets lots of anger.
> 
> - OP had shop install gear he paid through for authorized dealer which grants him special benefits (warranty on parts and labor). That's the reason people pay!!!! After reading this wow good thing I bought my Focal products off market. I will say though that if I did buy from the dealer I do frequent and have purchased other parts from (amps subs stereos alot) would've made it right one way or another and has warrantied my stuff and done what the OP is asking (which is totally reasonable) so major kudos to ABT electronics audio department and install bay for keeping the bar high it looks like the place this guy took it to is failing him. (Side note: that solid customer service doesn't translate to buying a mattress from there though their policy on that is horrible.)
> 
> ...


Thank you this is what I have been trying to say and I refuse to get pulled into the personal insults.

Based on the past 3 times, I have zero confidence that Focal (Orca) will fix this but, I just sent my Authorized Focal Dealer an email about setting up a date to check my system again.

I sent them an email because dealing with Focal (Orca) I found that I need to prove everything I say. I will let this thread know what they say.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Bizarroterl said:


> He's been to the dealer several times. The dealer says deal with Focal. Focal says deal with the dealer. He wants Focal to deal with the dealer so that it'll be fixed next time he takes it back in. As it is, they're catch-22'ing him, and it stinks.
> 
> It's really simple, and any of us would expect Focal to step up in the same circumstances. All they need to do is communicate with THEIR dealer, come up with a solution, and then have KB bring the vehicle in with assurances his problem will be fixed. They aren't.
> 
> Calling KB a poopy head doesn't help and just demonstrates a kindergarten mentality.


+1 Day - in case anyone cares. No one has called me back from my email, so I called & left a message for the dealer's owner. 

Maybe it is the best case scenario, the Dealer and Orca are talking about a course of action before they call me back!


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

The dealer has agreed to look at my SUV again this morning. 

Hopefully I will have some good news to post soon!


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> The dealer has agreed to look at my SUV again this morning.
> 
> Hopefully I will have some good news to post soon!


No news to report for today other than the dealer is keeping my SUV overnight.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Did they say why? They should have been able to swap the crossovers in <15 minutes.


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

I'm actually impressed that this thread soldiers on for over a month, and 7 pages....


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Did they say why? They should have been able to swap the crossovers in <15 minutes.


Not really. When I dropped it off @ 9:00am, they said they wouldn’t keep it overnight.

Hopefully between the dealer & Focal they can get it fixed. They have my spare Focal KRX3 & Arc Audio xDI 1200.6 to troubleshoot with.


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## 01LSi (Jul 27, 2012)

RRizz said:


> I'm actually impressed that this thread soldiers on for over a month, and 7 pages....




I'm impressed when I ask simple questions and I don't get an a direct answer or hardly a reply or two (to be clear, I appreciate when I do, and I don't believe I'm entitled to one), but then I watch other people ask similar questions and get thorough detailed down to the T replies. 

Or I watch a thread like this explode. I'm still trying to figure out what capacitor value I can just buy to protect my Tweeter and finally once and for all go active. I finally did receive a reply but they don't make it in the uf recommended to me in that reply so I'm right back to square one holding on to my passives.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 01LSi (Jul 27, 2012)

Anyhow good luck killerbox


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Bdubz said:


> I'm impressed when I ask simple questions and I don't get an a direct answer or hardly a reply or two (to be clear, I appreciate when I do, and I don't believe I'm entitled to one), but then I watch other people ask similar questions and get thorough detailed down to the T replies.
> 
> Or I watch a thread like this explode. I'm still trying to figure out what capacitor value I can just buy to protect my Tweeter and finally once and for all go active. I finally did receive a reply but they don't make it in the uf recommended to me in that reply so I'm right back to square one holding on to my passives.
> 
> ...


I can’t personally help you with active but, I will share what Andy @ AudioFrog recommended in a post. I hope it helps you.

In active systems, is everyone installing capacitors on the tweeters to protect them from damage?

If not, you should be. 20uF is fine.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I can’t personally help you with active but, I will share what Andy @ AudioFrog recommended in a post. I hope it helps you.
> 
> In active systems, is everyone installing capacitors on the tweeters to protect them from damage?
> 
> If not, you should be. 20uF is fine.


Another post from Andy on same thread: We aren't talking about using a cap as the crossover, just as a protection device in case something else fails.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Bdubz said:


> I'm still trying to figure out what capacitor value I can just buy to protect my Tweeter and finally once and for all go active.


Iirc it was recommended to find a cap that will high pass your tweeters at around half of your desired crossover point. So if you're planning on crossing them at 3k use a cap that will give you a high pass of around 1500hz. If you can't find the exact value find one that's close and you should be ok.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> Not really. When I dropped it off @ 9:00am, they said they wouldn’t keep it overnight.
> 
> Hopefully between the dealer & Focal they can get it fixed. They have my spare Focal KRX3 & Arc Audio xDI 1200.6 to troubleshoot with.


The dealer and Focal are still brainstorming and they want to keep my SUV for a second night.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Bdubz said:


> I'm impressed when I ask simple questions and I don't get an a direct answer or hardly a reply or two (to be clear, I appreciate when I do, and I don't believe I'm entitled to one), but then I watch other people ask similar questions and get thorough detailed down to the T replies.
> 
> Or I watch a thread like this explode. I'm still trying to figure out what capacitor value I can just buy to protect my Tweeter and finally once and for all go active. I finally did receive a reply but they don't make it in the uf recommended to me in that reply so I'm right back to square one holding on to my passives.
> 
> ...


68uF at 100v for tweeter protection.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> The dealer and Focal are still brainstorming and they want to keep my SUV for a second night.


On my way to get my SUV, three days is long enough.

I was hoping the fourth time to the shop with the same problem would be enough but, needless to say nothing is fixed and I am beyond upset!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> On my way to get my SUV, three days is long enough.
> 
> I was hoping the fourth time to the shop with the same problem would be enough but, needless to say nothing is fixed and I am beyond upset!


So what did your dealer say? 

What did he do while he had everything in his possession?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> So what did your dealer say?
> 
> What did he do while he had everything in his possession?


I don't know what he did nor do I care. I keep getting the same story and all I know is that I have done everything in my power to get it fixed.

*I regret ever buying these Finky Focal speakers.*


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

KillerBox said:


> I don't know what he did nor do I care. I keep getting the same story and all I know is that I have done everything in my power to get it fixed.
> 
> *I regret ever buying these Finky Focal speakers.*


Did i read that there is a new focal 3 way set that is an upgrade to the set you own? I would think It would be time to ask Focal to take your defective speakers back and upgrade you to the new set?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> Did i read that there is a new focal 3 way set that is an upgrade to the set you own? I would think It would be time to ask Focal to take your defective speakers back and upgrade you to the new set?


There is a new set of Focal 3 Ways out but, I am not out to beat them out of anything. 

I just want my stuff to work properly and I grow tired of people joking about how long my SUV has been in the shop. It has probably spent more time at the stereo shop in the past 365 days than it has spent at my house.

This is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Sell them and get something else. 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

KillerBox said:


> There is a new set of Focal 3 Ways out but, I am not out to beat them out of anything.
> 
> I just want my stuff to work properly and I grow tired of people joking about how long my SUV has been in the shop. It has probably spent more time at the stereo shop in the past 365 days than it has spent at my house.
> 
> This is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby!


i wouldn't consider it beating them out of anything. But not my speakers.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SkizeR said:


> Sell them and get something else.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


Nick if I didn't have 4 complete sets of component Focal Speakers in my SUV, I would have already ripped them out.

And the way I feel right now, I would probably just run over them.

And I know it is going to get worse before it gets better because the shop has probably adjusted my settings and I will have to re-tune stuff.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> So what did your dealer say?
> 
> What did he do while he had everything in his possession?


I am sitting the dealer’s parking lot right now. He told me that the problem is in the Focal’s passive crossover network. He started talking about putting something in to discharge the caps in the crossovers. But in my opinion, they are no closer to a solution than they were months ago.

Needless to say I told him I am tired of talking about it & it should have already been fixed. The Dealer, Orca & Focal have known the problem exists.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> He started talking about putting something in to discharge the caps in the crossovers.


wow.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

That sucks the dealer is so incompetent. If you want to try tackling it yourself I can talk you through fixing it. A $3 timer and a couple relays should be all you need.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> That sucks the dealer is so incompetent.


In the end it is still a Focal Support Network problem & now after being called out publicly, they can’t hide in the shadows anymore. I have been fighting this ping pong battle for months with no positive results.

Like I said before Focal’s support exists for 2 reasons only:

1. Making sure you bought from Authorized USA only Dealers.
2. Then looking for loopholes on something the customer did incorrectly.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> In the end it is still a Focal Support Network problem & now after being called out publicly, they can’t hide in the shadows anymore. I have been fighting this ping pong battle for months with no positive results.
> 
> Like I said before Focal’s support exists for 2 reasons only:
> 
> ...


you bought and had everything installed but the same dealer? it should have been fixed somehow the first time. 

i'd consider taking it to another dealer and billing the first by this point.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> you bought and had everything installed but the same dealer? it should have been fixed somehow the first time.
> 
> i'd consider taking it to another dealer and billing the first by this point.


And who is going to pay for that & how would I make them? I seriously doubt that Focal or the Dealer give a damn about my system.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> And who is going to pay for that & how would I make them? I seriously doubt that Focal or the Dealer give a damn about my system.


bill the first dealer since you didnt get what you paid for. If they dont wanna pay, small claims court im guessing


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Sounds like you should be telling the dealer that if they can't fix it then they need to take it all out and give you a refund so you can take your business elsewhere.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> There is not a lot we can do until the vehicle is in the possession of the dealer, and that is not up to us.


There is not a lot you can do with the vehicle in possession of the dealer either! 

Now that you are out of loopholes & going quiet isn’t going to make me go away.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Good, should take all of 20 minutes at the most to swap them out. If you’re still struggling to find that much time you can always take a 5 gallon bucket out to your car and fix it while you take your morning dump.


This comment makes me wonder why Focal Customer Service kept my SUV for 3 days this past time? And it is the 4th time to the dealer with the same problem & nothing is fixed!


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> This comment makes me wonder why Focal Customer Service kept my SUV for 3 days this past time? And it is the 4th time to the dealer with the same problem & nothing is fixed!


this whole thread make me wonder why your dealer hasn't fixed this to your satisfaction. did you truly buy and have everything installed there? if so, it should have been fixed the first time. 

there must be more to this story than what's being posted. otherwise, you found the worst dealer in north america.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> this whole thread make me wonder why your dealer hasn't fixed this to your satisfaction. did you truly buy and have everything installed there? if so, it should have been fixed the first time.
> 
> there must be more to this story than what's being posted. otherwise, you found the worst dealer in north america.


Everything is still under warranty. Everything was purchased from a Focal Authorized dealer. Everything was installed by a Focal Authoritized dealer.

The Authorized Focal dealer has said on 4 different trips that is Focal’s passive crossovers. Focal’s Customer Service just looks for ways not to warranty anything and that is one of the main reasons I will not touch it. No easy Loopholes from me! 

I know some of you have Orca blinders on but, everyone saw how tried to slide in the loophole if I changed the crossovers myself then they can void my warranty!


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

P.S. Focal is who agreed to make him their Authorized dealer. So no matter what Focal’s problem!


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## 01LSi (Jul 27, 2012)

jtaudioacc said:


> this whole thread make me wonder why your dealer hasn't fixed this to your satisfaction. did you truly buy and have everything installed there? if so, it should have been fixed the first time.
> 
> 
> 
> there must be more to this story than what's being posted. otherwise, you found the worst dealer in north america.




Car service dealers love to find reasons to deny coverage or do incomplete work. Ideally that would not be true but I'm not surprised at all with his story in my life's personal experience. I feel more often than not you gotta / they want you to scream and yell before they finally do what they're obligated to do. See it at the Apple store for example... I've definitely had both amazing and conversely terrible warranty experiences there. But randomly you'll be there and someone just abruptly starts screaming at the top of their lungs then all of a sudden their problems are solved. Wow. Maybe they are wrong. But if they're right and entitled to warranty repair, why the hell didn't they just do right by the customer. Is that decent and right to provoke a customer to get a service they're entitled to under the terms without loophole excuses. Its a business tactic to exhaust the customer to give up. Anyone who screeches and tells uncontrollably will almost always win. Comcast is another great example. You're right. They know you're right. They know they overcharged you for something you didn't ask for for a two year period, but they blame you, and you have to spend the equivalent of 40-50 hours on the phone to make it right. Now I just all Comcast once, and if they're BSing me. Straight to the Illinois attorney general complaint form and BBB and FCC and then all of a sudden they do the right thing immediately! Wow. Could have just been honest and decent to begin with right?

I'm not the type to behave that way and I hold them to a moral standard. "listen, I treat you with integrity and decency and have had good faith in you throughout the process. Its fair that this had gone on long enough for you to make it 100 percent right, right? I'm treating you with respect, phrase reciprocate that to me as well and just finally once and for all make this right one way or another. Don't you think that's fair and decent after all I've gone through and our conversations together? If you expect me to be decent and respectful and reasonable I hope you expect that from yourself to solve this problem, Please just make it right"

I'm getting charged right now by Acura for a rattling spoiler piece that's supposed to be under warranty. Is that right? And do I really wanna fight it or fix it myself. This sh** is pretty regular. That's why when I find someone exceptional. I praise them to high heaven and pay them the extra because they're decent and excellent at their craft. They stand behind their work. Skizer/nick from all the reviews and feedback I see here seems to be that kind of provider. Not many shot for excellence, they shoot for excuses.

It could be that killer is missing a point of sharing as well. There are always two sides to the story. But I mean his car is there now again... He did it on good faith. Again!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> This comment makes me wonder why Focal Customer Service kept my SUV for 3 days this past time? And it is the 4th time to the dealer with the same problem & nothing is fixed!


It's a <10 minute job for a shop, they should have been able to do it while you waited when you brought it in.



KillerBox said:


> Everything is still under warranty. Everything was purchased from a Focal Authorized dealer. Everything was installed by a Focal Authoritized dealer.
> 
> The Authorized Focal dealer has said on 4 different trips that is Focal’s passive crossovers. Focal’s Customer Service just looks for ways not to warranty anything and that is one of the main reasons I will not touch it. No easy Loopholes from me!
> 
> I know some of you have Orca blinders on but, everyone saw how tried to slide in the loophole if I changed the crossovers myself then they can void my warranty!


At this point what is Focal supposed to warranty? After this last trip to the dealer are we any closer to knowing what the problem is? Did the dealer actually swap the crossovers? Did the dealer actually contact Focal? Did the dealer do anything at all? I'm sure Focal would have no problem providing warranty if they knew what part needed to be warrantied.



KillerBox said:


> P.S. Focal is who agreed to make him their Authorized dealer. So no matter what Focal’s problem!


I don't know about Focal specifically but all it takes for most brands to become an authorized dealer is buying X amount of product per year. Unfortunately there really isn't any sort of vetting process.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> It's a <10 minute job for a shop, they should have been able to do it while you waited when you brought it in.
> 
> 
> At this point what is Focal supposed to warranty? After this last trip to the dealer are we any closer to knowing what the problem is? Did the dealer actually swap the crossovers? Did the dealer actually contact Focal? Did the dealer do anything at all? I'm sure Focal would have no problem providing warranty if they knew what part needed to be warrantied.


The dealer said that Focal wanted them to video of problem & they did. Focal knew the SUV was in for service. Focal’s passive crossovers are BAD & Orca shouldn’t have modified them the way that they did!


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> Focal’s passive crossovers are BAD & Orca shouldn’t have modified them the way that they did!


How do we know? Did the dealer do anything beyond taking a video? If the modifications are bad then why are you the only one experiencing this particular problem?


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

since you hate focal so much at this point, i don't see why you haven't had them install something else, or gotten your money back.

the shop thinks that's the entire reason for your problem right? so, swap speakers, and done. no more wasted time for either of you.

me, i would have just fixed the problem.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> How do we know? Did the dealer do anything beyond taking a video? If the modifications are bad then why are you the only one experiencing this particular problem?


I am not allow to touch it & I can’t be in the shop area. I have done my part 4 different times.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

ca90ss said:


> I don't know about Focal specifically but all it takes for most brands to become an authorized dealer is buying X amount of product per year. Unfortunately there really isn't any sort of vetting process.


Wrong. There is some standards.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Angrywhopper said:


> Wrong. There is some standards.


Some brands may be different but that's not the case from what I've seen.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> since you hate focal so much at this point, i don't see why you haven't had them install something else, or gotten your money back.
> 
> the shop thinks that's the entire reason for your problem right? so, swap speakers, and done. no more wasted time for either of you.
> 
> me, i would have just fixed the problem.


No one in Focal’s entire network has offered to exchange anything for something that works correctly. And with 4 complete sets of Focal components in my SUV, I am too far down the rabbit hole just to exchange 1 set from another manufacture.

I wished someone would have warned me about Focal’s polices before I purchased from them. 

So I will continue to inform others until Focal fixes the problem. The others can decide for themselves.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> No one in Focal’s entire network has offered to exchange anything for something that works correctly. And with 4 complete sets of Focal components in my SUV, I am too far down the rabbit hole just to exchange 1 set from another manufacture.
> 
> I wished someone would have warned me about Focal’s polices before I purchased from them.
> 
> So I will continue to inform others until Focal fixes the problem. The others can decide for themselves.


can we see the bench test video? they did bench test it right? 

you know what, never mind. i have to say, the shop is good to have you this convinced they can't fix it themselves.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> can we see the bench test video? they did bench test it right?
> 
> you know what, never mind. i have to say, the shop is good to have you this convinced they can't fix it themselves.


Just like everything else in Focal’s Network, I am not privy to that information. 

You will notice that Orca has went quiet since I told them that I would take it back the dealer again. They know that I am calling their bluff.

They love to sit back & wait until you say one thing wrong or they can shift the blame to someone else.

I have done my part 4 different times. It is Focal’s time to do their part 1 time!


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

While dealer ought to have done whatever it takes to make it right, it seems clear to me that they're trying to wear you down.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Grinder said:


> it seems clear to me that they're trying to wear you down.


I agree. Wear me down or wait me out until my warranty expires.


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

i could be wrong, but i think since you notified them of the problem DURING the warranty period even after it expires they have to still take care of it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Angrywhopper said:


> Wrong. There is some standards.


i dont think thats the case with focal. when i was some kid working out of my driveway all the local reps wanted was a big opening order and xx,xxx amount ordered per year. nothing more


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

KillerBox said:


> Just like everything else in Focal’s Network, I am not privy to that information.
> 
> You will notice that Orca has went quiet since I told them that I would take it back the dealer again. They know that I am calling their bluff.
> 
> ...


what do you mean you are not privy to that information, it is your vehicle in wich you have paid a lot of money to have this stuff installed, buddy,you need to be way more aggressive in making them show you the findings, sound very fishy to me, maybe look into talking to a lawyer and see what your options are,,just a suggestion


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> what do you mean you are not privy to that information, it is your vehicle in wich you have paid a lot of money to have this stuff installed, buddy,you need to be way more aggressive in making them show you the findings, sound very fishy to me


Do you smell what I am stepping in? 

Focal’s Network might take care of some special Focal Huggers but, it is not for the average retail customer’s protection. 

The main purpose of Focal’s Network is to protect Focal’s interests only.


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## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

Bringing in a lawyer could easily cost more that all the equipment and install with no guarantee of any resolution. There is the way things should be and the way things are.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

If, as you say:


KillerBox said:


> ….
> The main purpose of Focal’s Network is to protect Focal’s interests only.



And to the extent that they’re trying to:


KillerBox said:


> …wear (you) down or wait (you) out until (your) warranty expires.


…said warranty would seem to be of little or no use to you.



And given the likelihood that:


Bizarroterl said:


> Bringing in a lawyer could easily cost more than all the equipment and install with no guarantee of any resolution…



And bearing in mind that:


ca90ss said:


> …the dealer is so incompetent….



…it seems to me that, all things considered, you have nothing to lose by simply fixing it yourself (or paying someone to do it for you):


ca90ss said:


> …If you want to try tackling it yourself I can talk you through fixing it. A $3 timer and a couple relays should be all you need.



...because, unfortunately:


Bizarroterl said:


> There is the way things should be, and the way things are.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Grinder said:


> If, as you say:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Eventually I will figure out how to fix the crossovers or just replace the entire system. 

After 4 times to the dealer with the same exact problem and 4 times receiving the same exact results, I have came to the conclusion that I can't count of Focal's Customer Support Network.

I mistakenly assumed since they are selling Premium Products at Premium Prices, then their Network would be Premium too.

So all I can do is to keep informing others of what has happened to me to the best of my abilities because I wished someone would have informed me.


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## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

More and more it seems like you have a totally **** dealer or you are being a total ass to the dealer. I mean after all this trouble don't you think by now the dealer would do whatever it takes to make you happy?


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

wizzi001 said:


> More and more it seems like you have a totally **** dealer or you are being a total ass to the dealer. I mean after all this trouble don't you think by now the dealer would do whatever it takes to make you happy?


I'd bet it's a totally **** dealer.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

wizzi001 said:


> More and more it seems like you have a totally **** dealer or you are being a total ass to the dealer. I mean after all this trouble don't you think by now the dealer would do whatever it takes to make you happy?


I don't think he is a bad dealer. The owner is a hands on type of guy and has been in business under the same name and same location for over 35+ years.

As far as me, I don't think I have been. I hardly ever even get upset. 

Even this past Friday I didn't show my butt. I just told him that I expected my SUV to finally be fixed and for the fourth time, I hear the exact same thing. 

Focal's Passive Crossover Design is causing my problem and no one seems have an easy answer on how to fix it.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KillerBox said:


> I don't think he is a bad dealer. The owner is a hands on type of guy and has been in business under the same name and same location for over 35+ years.
> 
> As far as me, I don't think I have been. I hardly ever even get upset.
> 
> ...


I am truly baffled by your reticence to place any blame on the dealer (whom I see as the most to blame for your dissatisfaction).


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Grinder said:


> I am truly baffled by your reticence to place any blame on the dealer (whom I see as the most to blame for your dissatisfaction).


I don't know who is at blame but, what I do know is the dealer has never had a problem warranty and fixing my stuff in the past. 

The main difference between the past and now is that this is my first system with Focal products.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

To those putting blame on the dealer, keep in mind Focal has admitted there is a design flaw in the speaker component "package", hence the redesigned crossover.


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## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

Moving on, is there another manufacturer's crossover you could use?


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## Kapn.K (May 13, 2009)

It looks like the flaw dates back to 2009, at least. I saw your comment, there.

Can't post link but google 165KRX3 bi amp. It will bring you to the thread on this forum.

It seems like your amp and these components will never play well.

I don't think this should have ever left the dealer when it was installed. 
I think the dealer should have offered up some options, exchanged for some non-affected model, go active, etc. 

I would be pissed if the dealer told me to contact the manufacturer. A Nissan dealer did that to me, once.

I don't think anyone could blame you if you never purchased or spoke favorably about focal, again. Especially if your dealer provided them with a video of the crossover swap.

I've owned and still own some focals and think they are pretty sweet. I don't think they provided any more magic than my first MB Quarts 20 years ago, Bostons, CDT's. I'm a lot more knowledgeable about drivers than I was in my teens. I don't think I could ever drop a grand or 2 on components but I do dream about some Steven's HLCDs. I wouldn't run them passive.

That said, I think it would be in Orca and Focal's best interest to swap you out with something that would make you happy. Even if they had to eat a little bit. 

"It takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently."

Good luck, man.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Kapn.K said:


> It looks like the flaw dates back to 2009, at least. I saw your comment, there.
> 
> Can't post link but google 165KRX3 bi amp. It will bring you to the thread on this forum.
> 
> ...


I think that ^^^^^ pretty well sums it up.


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## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

SQram said:


> To those putting blame on the dealer, keep in mind Focal has admitted there is a design flaw in the speaker component "package", hence the redesigned crossover.


that's fine and dandy, but at what point does the dealer say enough is enough and replace gear of comparable value into the vehicle and then deal with focal/orca directly?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQram said:


> To those putting blame on the dealer, keep in mind Focal has admitted there is a design flaw in the speaker component "package", hence the redesigned crossover.


Since Focal's Network has been no help again. I would like to thank everyone that tried to help me with this situation. I do appreciate the help! 

I will even thank the guys that were originally taking Focal's side too. Next time though, let's keep the personal type insults to a minimum.

Like I have said before, I will eventually find a way to fix it myself or replace the Focal 165KRX3 with something different. 

I still feel like I should continue to inform others of what happened to me because I wished someone would have informed me. So anyone that wants to unsubscribe, this is a good jumping off point


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> Since Focal's Network has been no help again. I would like to thank everyone that tried to help me with this situation. I do appreciate the help!
> 
> I will even thank the guys that were originally taking Focal's side too. Next time though, let's keep the personal type insults to a minimum.
> 
> ...


Dude, no one is taking "sides". This isn't high school.

Also, there are hundreds of Focal speakers sold _everyday_ across the world. If it truly was a design issue, it would have been public knowledge by now. 

When modifying a vehicle to accommodate aftermarket electronics, there will be instances where incompatibilities arise. Sh*t happens, fix it and move on.

This whole scenario should have never got to this point. It really was/is a simple fix from the get go. The dealer should have taken all the Focal speakers out of your car and replaced them with insert brand here.


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## Kapn.K (May 13, 2009)

Angrywhopper said:


> Dude, no one is taking "sides". This isn't high school.
> 
> Also, there are hundreds of Focal speakers sold _everyday_ across the world. If it truly was a design issue, it would have been public knowledge by now.
> 
> ...



I was taking sides. With Focal. By the time I read through all of it, I came back to the dealer should have helped the customer navigate this mess. I think Focal missed the mark a bit and so did the dealer. All the customer did was come in with a pile of cash and said dope my ride out. 

I've been happy with some Focals but I've never tried their $1100/set 3 way mentioned here so I can't first hand comment but it's definitely something I didn't believe was possible from a passive component. 

From the thread I can't link: 

"Greetings All!!

What we have run into with the 165 KRX3 is that a lot of amplifiers in the market today,( especially those that are based on full range class D), will not run this system. The reason behind this is an ohm load swing in the bass driver around 150hz. When the system is pushed, the impedance drop is to around .8 ohms stereo. Now, it is not for very long, but some of the amplifiers out there will not handle this and the go into protection. 

The "fix" for this is to Bi-amp the system. Now, there are amplifiers out there that will run the KRX3's without having to Bi-amp the system. As many of you know, this 3 way system is very good and can be extremely demanding on any amplifier. They are extremely dynamic and can be taxing on any amplifier. Take care when considering what kind of amplifier you are going to use!!

Nick Wingate Jr.
National Sales Training Coordinator
Focal America"

Sounds like a design "consideration" at least. Maybe have a HCL for it when they run into something like this?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...2-need-help-focal-165krx3-crossover-asap.html


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## Kapn.K (May 13, 2009)

Actually, it did let me link. Must have hit my 5th post since 2009!


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

Angrywhopper said:


> Also, there are hundreds of Focal speakers sold _everyday_ across the world. If it truly was a design issue, it would have been public knowledge by now.
> 
> When modifying a vehicle to accommodate aftermarket electronics, there will be instances where incompatibilities arise. Sh*t happens, fix it and move on.


Focal admits design error on the passive, you need to go read the links provided earlier. It IS public knowledge.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

SQram said:


> Focal admits design error on the passive, you need to go read the links provided earlier. It IS public knowledge.


Perfect. In that case, as I stated before, there are incompatibilities with the amp choice/system layout and these speakers. Easy fix. Install other speakers!


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

Angrywhopper said:


> Dude, no one is taking "sides". This isn't high school.
> 
> Also, there are hundreds of Focal speakers sold _everyday_ across the world. If it truly was a design issue, it would have been public knowledge by now.
> 
> ...



that's what should have happened. or, at the very least, a work around. different amp, system setup, etc. etc.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Just because there are issues with the component set with the non-modified passive crossovers presenting a low ohm load that can cause SOME (class D) amplifiers to go into protect, does not mean that anything and everything that can go wrong with a system can be blamed on the component system. Especially an issue that from all appearances seems to be isolated to a single system. 

I understand KillerBox's frustration. I really do. I would probably be livid to have spent so much money and time and repeated trips to the dealer on a system just to have it fail to meet expectations. And quite frankly, not work properly. And maybe he just hasn't shared it, but I haven't seen a single piece of evidence that the dealer has actually done any trouble shooting. We haven't seen the video they claimed to have made or even been told whether or not the customer's own spare equipment (passive crossovers and amplifier) were swapped out for testing.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

I wished I knew before I purchased my stuff that Focal's Customer Service is just for replacing a broken part(s) whenever Focal's Dealer discovers it and if Customer Service doesn't believe the problem was caused by another component. 

Because I know I would have saved money buying from European sources (as long as they aren't counterfeits) and then replacing any broken parts out of my own pocket on an as needed basis. Remember my SUV has 4 sets of K2 speakers in it and I have 4 complete sets of K2 for spares in my closet. (I have so many spares because I keep my all vehicles for 10+ years.)

But, I went through Focal's Authorized Network because I thought that I wouldn't have to troubleshoot stuff myself. 

So to put it all together in one nutshell: I have paid more than I had to purchase my Focal equipment, left my SUV for at least 17 days at the shop - 4 different trips for the same problem and if I troubleshot the problem myself, I probably have to pay for any broken parts out of my own pocket (because I know how Orca likes a loophole).

So yes, I am going to be vocal about it


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> I wished I knew before I purchased my stuff that Focal's Customer Service is just for replacing a broken part(s) whenever Focal's Dealer discovers it and if Customer Service doesn't believe the problem was caused by another component.
> 
> Because I know I would have saved money buying from European sources (as long as they aren't counterfeits) and then replacing any broken parts out of my own pocket on an as needed basis. Remember my SUV has 4 sets of K2 speakers in it and I have 4 complete sets of K2 for spares in my closet. (I have so many spares because I keep my all vehicles for 10+ years.)
> 
> ...




seriously, what has the dealer given you to solutions? they've not once given you other options to fix it? 

new speakers, new amp, rewire differently. those are all solutions i or any half decent shop would have done.

i still got to believe we aren't hearing the whole story here.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I wished I knew before I purchased my stuff that Focal's Customer Service is just for replacing a broken part(s) whenever Focal's Dealer discovers it and if Customer Service doesn't believe the problem was caused by another component.


Perhaps it has been provided to Focal America, but you haven't given us any proof that your dealer actually did anything to troubleshoot the issue when you took the vehicle to them. Did he give you proof? Did he outline the steps he went through, what he provided to Orca and how they responded?

If I were in your shoes and had to drop my vehicle off for several days, yet again with no fix, I would want to know exactly what happened with my vehicle from the time I dropped it off until the time I picked it up. I would want to know what my dealer did, and if he is laying blame at the manufacturer's feet, I would want to know what their response was. 

As I've stated before, I've never had an issue like this of Orca's customer service. Sure, they have procedures in place to protect themselves and their dealers. But, when you follow the procedures and testing shows that there is an issue with their product within the warranty period they take care of it. And just to be clear, install issues are not product issues. 



KillerBox said:


> Because I know I would have saved money buying from European sources (as long as they aren't counterfeits) and then replacing any broken parts out of my own pocket on an as needed basis. Remember my SUV has 4 sets of K2 speakers in it and I have 4 complete sets of K2 for spares in my closet. (I have so many spares because I keep my all vehicles for 10+ years.)


Buying from out of country sources is always an option. If you can get a reliable dealer to transship and aren't worried about warranty or counterfeit products, it is one method to save some money. For some, it is worth the risk. For others, not so much.



KillerBox said:


> But, I went through Focal's Authorized Network because I thought that I wouldn't have to troubleshoot stuff myself.


You shouldn't have to. Your dealer should be addressing the issue. Whether this is an issue with defective product or install, it is his to deal with. Not yours. 



KillerBox said:


> So to put it all together in one nutshell: I have paid more than I had to purchase my Focal equipment, left my SUV for at least 17 days at the shop - 4 different trips for the same problem and if I troubleshot the problem myself, I probably have to pay for any broken parts out of my own pocket (because I know how Orca likes a loophole).


Until proven otherwise, I'm just go ahead and assume your dealer is going to be no help on this issue. Swap the passive crossover with your spares yourself. It should only take a few minutes and you can see for yourself whether or not the issue persists. (Don't worry, it will be out little secret. No one will tell Orca.) 



KillerBox said:


> So yes, I am going to be vocal about it


You have every right to be vocal. And understand, that for the most part, we're all just trying to help you get the issue resolved. It is better for everyone (customer, dealer, distributor, manufacturer) for this to come to a positive resolution. I just think you're being most vocal about the wrong party in that list. I'd take a hint from what some of the other installers/dealers have posted in this thread.


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

You can be vocal about it, but (at least through the internet), you sound like a whiny child with their hands over their ears. 

As stated before, the combination of amplifier/speakers is the issue here. It really is an easy fix. Swap amps or Swap speakers. Done.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Angrywhopper said:


> You can be vocal about it, but (at least through the internet), you sound like a whiny child with their hands over their ears.
> 
> As stated before, the combination of amplifier/speakers is the issue here. It really is an easy fix. Swap amps or Swap speakers. Done.


Not sure swapping amps is an option, but he has said at least 20 times he is not interested in swapping speakers.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Angrywhopper said:


> You can be vocal about it, but (at least through the internet), you sound like a whiny child with their hands over their ears.
> 
> As stated before, the combination of amplifier/speakers is the issue here. It really is an easy fix. Swap amps or Swap speakers. Done.


I know swapping the speakers should cure my problem but, the other problem is Focal’s support & that bothers me too.

So I will continue to inform others and if you think it is a whiny child, then you can click unsubscribe (or not because I don’t care)


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> seriously, what has the dealer given you to solutions? they've not once given you other options to fix it?
> 
> new speakers, new amp, rewire differently. those are all solutions i or any half decent shop would have done.
> 
> i still got to believe we aren't hearing the whole story here.


The options I have been given basically is I can buy new speakers, buy new amps or contact Focal. 

And I have no reason to hide anything, so maybe you should ask others the same question?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)




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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Perhaps it has been provided to Focal America, but you haven't given us any proof that your dealer actually did anything to troubleshoot the issue when you took the vehicle to them. Did he give you proof? Did he outline the steps he went through, what he provided to Orca and how they responded?


I don’t know what steps he took. His only response was given a few more days, he might could rig up something to discharge the caps in the crossovers. I paid to much for a patched up & rigged up job.

Orca knew the problem existed & they knew the SUV was there, so you think they might talk. I know I asked Orca too!


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


>


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


>


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

KillerBox said:


> Do you smell what I am stepping in?
> 
> Focal’s Network might take care of some special Focal Huggers but, it is not for the average retail customer’s protection.
> 
> The main purpose of Focal’s Network is to protect Focal’s interests only.


yes sir i definitely do, i just dont like seeing people being taken advantage of and it seems to me that maybe they are doing this to you, hopefully something good will come out of this mess


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> His only response was given a few more days, he might could rig up something to discharge the caps in the crossovers.


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## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> The options I have been given basically is I can buy new speakers, buy new amps or contact Focal.
> 
> And I have no reason to hide anything, so maybe you should ask others the same question?


See the dealer is ****ty as hell. If they were a real dealer they would make you whole and not leave you hanging high and dry.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

wizzi001 said:


> See the dealer is ****ty as hell. If they were a real dealer they would make you whole and not leave you hanging high and dry.


I have 1 Authorized Focal dealer in a 100 mile radius. 

So anyone with a pile of cash to order a lot of products can be authorized? If that is the case, The Dealer Network needs improving!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I have 1 Authorized Focal dealer in a 100 mile radius.
> 
> So anyone with a pile of cash to order a lot of products can be authorized? If that is the case, The Dealer Network needs improving!


I think at this point, it would be fair to ask... Who is your dealer? I am sure many of us can speculate, but at this point, I think it is appropriate that you fill us in. You've been relentless to call out Focal and Orca, and I understand why you feel the need to do so. But, for whatever reason you've not once mentioned who your dealer is.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

rton20s said:


> I think at this point, it would be fair to ask... Who is your dealer? I am sure many of us can speculate, but at this point, I think it is appropriate that you fill us in.


There’s only 2 that show up on their dealer locator if you search Mobile, Al. One 5 miles away and one 90 miles away and considering he says there’s only one within 100 miles it’s probably a pretty safe bet it’s the closer one.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> There’s only 2 that show up on their dealer locator if you search Mobile, Al. One 5 miles away and one 90 miles away and considering he says there’s only one within 100 miles it’s probably a pretty safe bet it’s the closer one.


"I do believe you have got it surrounded, Mr. Morden." And I live 30 miles away from Mobile, AL. so I have 120 mile drive each way to the 2nd dealer.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> There’s only 2 that show up on their dealer locator if you search Mobile, Al. One 5 miles away and one 90 miles away and considering he says there’s only one within 100 miles it’s probably a pretty safe bet it’s the closer one.


I checked out the dealer locator as well, but I didn't want to make an assumption. 



KillerBox said:


> "I do believe you have got it surrounded, Mr. Morden." And I live 30 miles away from Mobile, AL. so I have 120 mile drive each way to the 2nd dealer.


So, this is your way of vaguely not confirming that it is most likely TNT Car Stereo. Probably. Maybe.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> So, this is your way of vaguely not confirming that it is most likely TNT Car Stereo. Probably. Maybe.


Unlike others, I really don't like vague answers. So yes, they are my dealer and installer.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

What happened to SQ Audi's post? 

"Well evidently they have an A+ rating on BBB. Maybe that will change soon."


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

This has been an interesting thread to follow... 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

rton20s said:


> What happened to SQ Audi's post?
> 
> "Well evidently they have an A+ rating on BBB. Maybe that will change soon."


It would be interesting and perhaps helpful to hear from them, i'm sure someone from here has already picked up the phone and called in a favor


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## Angrywhopper (Jan 20, 2010)

I agree. Two sides to a story. I'd like to hear the other side now.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Angrywhopper said:


> I agree. *Three* sides to *this* story. I'd like to hear the other *two sides* now.


FTFY


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Angrywhopper said:


> I agree. Two sides to a story. I'd like to hear the other side now.


Hell so would I!


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> I agree. Three sides to this story. I'd like to hear the other two sides now. FTFY


Seriously if y'all hear another side to the story and it is something I did wrong, I would really like to know.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I did and the Focal authorized dealer determine it was because of how Focal or Orca bi-amped the passive crossovers. And they said that Focal wasn't going to do anything about it.
> 
> I kept my mouth shut until someone else brought up "FOCAL's POOR CUSTOMER SUPPORT".
> 
> After this going back and forth, I am starting to believe that Focal really isn't interested in fixing the problem.


And I still believe it!


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

KillerBox said:


> rton20s said:
> 
> 
> > So, this is your way of vaguely not confirming that it is most likely TNT Car Stereo. Probably. Maybe.
> ...


I am very sorry you have been thru this. A buddy of mine has had headaches w/ his 12 speaker Audiofrog GB system from 2 authorized AF dealers, he is on his 3rd installer now * According to him *AF said they would help correct the install if he came to Cali, when it came time AF dropped communication.

You said there is one Focal dealer when there is two, have you tried the other authorized dealer that is closer? You said one dealer is 90 miles away but there is an authorized dealer 5 miles away from Mobile.

I didn’t like how Orca slyly threw in that warranty void statement either. Makes me think twice about purchasing Mosconi amp and dsp. 

Why we’re you not forthcoming about the dealer name and company til 27 pages in? I understand you believe the dealer is not at fault & they are doing things correctly, however, after the second time having a repeat issue they should have made the call to pull the focal out ASAP..

I could be wrong but you seem set on these Focal speakers & that’s why the dealer told you to call Orca / Focal after the continued issue.. 
Is Focal speaker’s a status thing for you? If so it’s okay, I have my name brand material things that I want & make me happy like Ralph Lauren Polo boxers and t shirts ??

There are much better speakers out there for the $ than focal. 

Did anyone reach out to the dealer? I am interested to see if there is more info/ sides to this or Any resolution yet?


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

ChaseUTB said:


> I am very sorry you have been thru this. A buddy of mine has had headaches w/ his 12 speaker Audiofrog GB system from 2 authorized AF dealers, he is on his 3rd installer now * According to him *AF said they would help correct the install if he came to Cali, when it came time AF dropped communication.


 OH SNAP! Now you went and done it. Prepare for the beat down....


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

RRizz said:


> ChaseUTB said:
> 
> 
> > I am very sorry you have been thru this. A buddy of mine has had headaches w/ his 12 speaker Audiofrog GB system from 2 authorized AF dealers, he is on his 3rd installer now * According to him *AF said they would help correct the install if he came to Cali, when it came time AF dropped communication.
> ...


I’m not sure what you mean by this, I haven’t done anything. Life has done a pretty good job of beating me down at times, I’m sure I can handle whatever you throw at me. 

I just found out today that Andy has had cancer and been going thru chemo. I did it realize that was the level sick he was. At this point, I hope he kicks the cancer’s ass and get healthy ASAP. Everything else is a non issue... Have a good one


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

I meant by bad mouthing the frogs. Dont you know that Diyma is frog country?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ChaseUTB said:


> You said there is one Focal dealer when there is two, have you tried the other authorized dealer that is closer? You said one dealer is 90 miles away but there is an authorized dealer 5 miles away from Mobile.


I have only tried the Focal dealer that is closest to me. That dealer has done installs for me in the past and has always taken care of my problems. The other dealer is 120 miles away (240 miles round trip).



ChaseUTB said:


> I didn’t like how Orca slyly threw in that warranty void statement either. Makes me think twice about purchasing Mosconi amp and dsp.


It seems to me like they have a standard checklist:

1.) Was the item purchased from our Authorized Dealers? If no, warranty is void. If yes, move to question two.

2.) Has the warranty date expired? If no, warranty is void. If yes, move to question three.

3.) Can we blame the installer? If yes, no warranty claim. If no, move to question four.

4.) Can we blame some other piece of equipment in the system that is not ours? If yes, no warranty claim. If no, move to question five.

5.) Can we delay until the warranty is expired? If yes, no warranty claim. If no, shutdown all communications because these warranty things are going to cut into our profits.




ChaseUTB said:


> Why we’re you not forthcoming about the dealer name and company til 27 pages in? I understand you believe the dealer is not at fault & they are doing things correctly, however, after the second time having a repeat issue they should have made the call to pull the focal out ASAP.


 The local dealer has always stood behind his products and work. The only difference I can come up with is this is my first time with Focal products.



ChaseUTB said:


> I could be wrong but you seem set on these Focal speakers & that’s why the dealer told you to call Orca / Focal after the continued issue.


 In my current system, I have 4 complete Focal K2 or ES component speaker sets. I am trying my best to keep all speaker sets the same.



ChaseUTB said:


> There are much better speakers out there for the $ than focal.


 At this point in my life, I don't have much free time. So instead of swapping equipment to find what might work for a better price, I would rather just buy a matched system. 

In my opinion, the Focal speakers sound great (other than the turn on pop caused by the crossovers) but, if they don't fix their problem, I will never buy from Focal again.



ChaseUTB said:


> Did anyone reach out to the dealer? I am interested to see if there is more info/ sides to this or Any resolution yet?


 Not as far as I know besides me, even though I asked Orca too before I took my SUV back to the dealer for the 4th time. 

In my opinion, Orca knows there is only two ways to solve their problem and either way is going to cost them something. So they will let me ***** and moan until my warranty is expired.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

this is so simple. dealer installed the equipment you bought. they should make it right. how many amps did they test that do this same thing? they should have never told you to call focal. 

if you wanted a matched set, you should have used focal amps. 

still seems like there has to be more to this story. hard to believe even the crappiest dealer wouldn't take care of you/


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> this is so simple. dealer installed the equipment you bought. they should make it right. how many amps did they test that do this same thing? they should have never told you to call focal.


Like I have said before, I don't know how many amps they tested. I agree that I should have never been told to contact Focal.



jtaudioacc said:


> if you wanted a matched set, you should have used focal amps.


 I wanted matched speaker sets only. I didn't want to have to match everything from the headunit, speaker wires, power wires, DSP, amplifiers, RCAs and speakers.



jtaudioacc said:


> still seems like there has to be more to this story. hard to believe even the crappiest dealer wouldn't take care of you/


 Focal and Orca going quiet and I am still here with the same problem, should tell everyone how well they have taken care of my problem.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> Focal and Orca going quit and I am still here with the same problem, should tell everyone how they taken care of my problem.


exactly, i'd warn people about your dealer if they don't fix their problem.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> exactly, i'd warn people about your dealer if they don't fix their problem.


You Say 'Tomato', I say 'Tomato'... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ3fjQa5Hls

Either way Focal's Authorized Dealer and/or Focal's Customer Support, Focal's Network needs help!


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## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> Like I have said before, I don't know how many amps they tested. I agree that I should have never been told to contact Focal.
> 
> I wanted matched speaker sets only. I didn't want to have to match everything from the headunit, speaker wires, power wires, DSP, amplifiers, RCAs and speakers.
> 
> Focal and Orca going quiet and I am still here with the same problem, should tell everyone how well they have taken care of my problem.


Your dealer has also went quiet on you. Like I said your dealer should be making you whole yet you seem to think they aren't part of the problem.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

wizzi001 said:


> Your dealer has also went quiet on you. Like I said your dealer should be making you whole yet you seem to think they aren't part of the problem.


The dealer said that could patch up something that would work. I paid too much money for a patched up something.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but why not ask for a full refund of the Focal product and have a different brand installed? 

The definition of insanity is trying the same thing and expecting different results.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Maybe I missed it somewhere, but why not ask for a full refund of the Focal product and have a different brand installed?


Because I have 4 sets of Focal speakers installed in the same SUV. I did offer to add some extra "boot" money to get the newer or older Focal model and I was denied.

But they did offer to sell me a new set at full retail and I could sell my old KRX3 on my own 



Niebur3 said:


> The definition of insanity is trying the same thing and expecting different results.


I agree but, people on DIYMA talked me into taking my SUV back to the dealer for the 4th time for the exact same result! So now, I am just informing others of what happened to me.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Did you buy the speakers new from the dealer? If so, have them remove the defective set and replace them with a comparable set from a different brand....problem solved!


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Did you buy the speakers new from the dealer? If so, have them remove the defective set and replace them with a comparable set from a different brand....problem solved!


Only if they are going to do all 4 sets of speakers because I am trying to keep them timbre matching as much as possible.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Did you ask?

Also, with rears to front, timber matching isn't really a big deal, IMHO.


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## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> The dealer said that could patch up something that would work. I paid too much money for a patched up something.


I am talking about taking everything out and giving you something comparable or better.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Did you ask?
> 
> Also, with rears to front, timber matching isn't really a big deal, IMHO.


No, I did not ask about another brand. If I was going to do that, I already have some old school Coustic DR series, old school MB Quart Q series and new school AudioFrog GB series in my closet that I would run.

I still want everything timbre matched. Right now my current system is all Focal speakers (except for the subwoofers) Center Channel ES 100k, Front Door KRX3, Rear Door ES 165k and third row seating ES 100k.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

wizzi001 said:


> I am talking about taking everything out and giving you something comparable or better.


As far as I know, this dealer's has Focal, Rockford, Polk Audio, AudioPipe, PowerBass, Kenwood and Pioneer.

So I offered to add some extra "boot" money to get the newer or older Focal model and I was denied.

But they did offer to sell me a new set at full retail and I could sell my old KRX3 on my own


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

why the hell is this thread still going?


----------



## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

Because KB wasn't supported well by Focal and members of this forum don't read the thread before they post "what you should do is".


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

Bizarroterl said:


> Because KB wasn't supported well by Focal and members of this forum don't read the thread before they post "what you should do is".


untrue. all his dealer needs to do is fix the problem. they've screwed him over but for some reason, he thinks it's only the crossovers fault. there are solutions, but they don't want to fix it for him.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> untrue. all his dealer needs to do is fix the problem. they've screwed him over but for some reason, he thinks it's only the crossovers fault. there are solutions, but they don't want to fix it for him.


In a nutshell for those just tuning in:

1.) Focal's Authorized Dealer says that the problem is in the Focal's Passive Crossovers. 

2.) Focal's Passive Crossovers were modified by Focal's Only Authorized Distributor in the USA because even though they are rated as 4 ohm speakers, they dip down to 0.8 ohm at certain frequencies. This was not disclosed anywhere in the owner's manual.

3.) Focal's Customer Support asked for proof again. So I provide Focal Customer Support with everything they require to make a warranty claim. 

4.) I asked Focal's Only Authorized Distributor in the USA to step in and give their Authorized Dealer detailed instructions on how to fix my problem.

5.) Focal's Customer Support said they couldn't do anything unless I took my car to the Focal Authorized Dealer again. 

6.) Focal's Only Authorized Distributor in the USA said that Focal's Authorized Dealers are the only people authorized to maintain my system, if I wanted to keep my warranty.

7.) So my SUV was dropped off at Focal's Authorized Dealer for the 4th time.

8.) Focal's Only Authorized Distributor is either incapable, neutered or doesn't care enough to fix my problem.

In my opinion, I feel like Focal Authorized Network is like playing a game of 3 card Monty and I just want my system fixed. Throughout this ordeal, I have found out way more than I have ever wanted to know about Focal's Authorized Network.

So until someone in Focal Authorized Network fixes my problem, I will continue to inform people of what has happened to me.


----------



## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> In a nutshell for those just tuning in:
> 
> 1.) Focal's Authorized Dealer says that the problem is in the Focal's Passive Crossovers.
> 
> ...



again, your dealer didn't do what's necessary to remedy your issue. i'd only be upset with focal if their speakers didn't work with their amps. 

you must own the shop you are going to or something. again, this just can't be the whole story.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> again, your dealer didn't do what's necessary to remedy your issue.


If my dealer didn't do what's necessary to remedy my issue, in my opinion that is still a Focal Network Problem. Focal is the one that made them an Authorized Dealer.




jtaudioacc said:


> i'd only be upset with focal if their speakers didn't work with their amps.


No where in Focal's information did it state that the only way my warranty was valid, if I bought all Focal equipment. 

Furthermore, I have a feeling if I did buy Focal amplifiers then they would just blame the DSP. And when I purchased a Focal DSP, then would probably blame the speaker wire, RCAs, vehicle or etc. 



jtaudioacc said:


> you must own the shop you are going to or something.


I don't own and will never own a stereo shop. I have never even been to a stereo competition. I am 100% a longtime retail consumer of car stereo equipment. I do this strictly because it is a hobby since the mid 1980s.



jtaudioacc said:


> again, this just can't be the whole story.


And again, I have no reason to lie to anyone because I have nothing to gain. 

Furthermore after answering every question for past 12 pages, if I was lieing, I am sure someone on here would have called me on it.

So my questions to you are: 
1.) How come Focal's Customer Support has went quiet? 
2.) Why is Focal's Customer Support going quiet and not fixing anything acceptable? 
3.) And why don't you automatically think that I am not telling the whole story to the best of my ability?


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

jtaudioacc said:


> again, your dealer didn't do what's necessary to remedy your issue. i'd only be upset with focal if their speakers didn't work with their amps.
> 
> you must own the shop you are going to or something. again, this just can't be the whole story.


I disagree. Orca (Focal) has some responsibility in this, that is their product being sold through the retailer. They have admitted there is a design flaw in the component set, now whether or not it is causing this specific problem, we don't know, and nor do you.

When Volkswagon was caught in the whole dieselgate fiasco (improper design whether intentional or not), did the dealerships foot the bill and admit liability, or did the manufacturer?


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

SQram said:


> I disagree. Orca (Focal) has some responsibility in this, that is their product being sold through the retailer. They have admitted there is a design flaw in the component set, now whether or not it is causing this specific problem, we don't know, and nor do you.
> 
> When Volkswagon was caught in the whole dieselgate fiasco (improper design whether intentional or not), did the dealerships foot the bill and admit liability, or did the manufacturer?


they made an adjustment, only in the US, because some class d amplifiers not being able to handle a low resistance on occasion. amps that came out after the speakers. if he used a Focal amp and Focal speakers, they'd take care of it. wether by fixing it, or refunding his money. of course, after correct troubleshooting. 

if the dealer did testing to figure out why only their install, makes passive crossovers have turn on pop or turn off pop, i'm sure an easy solution could be made. just remember, this is the only system they know of with this problem out of thousands of the same crossovers being used. 

so yes, you are right we don't know because the correct troubleshooting hasn't been done in 4 trips. what would you want orca to do? 

i'd just get it all replaced at this point or money refunded since the dealer can't fix their problem, and go somewhere else.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

SQram said:


> now whether or not it is causing this specific problem, we don't know, and nor do you.


So since we still don't know the cause of the problem isn't it premature to blame Focal until we know for sure what the problem is?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> they made an adjustment, only in the US, because some class d amplifiers not being able to handle a low resistance on occasion. amps that came out after the speakers. if he used a Focal amp and Focal speakers, they'd take care of it.


So buy an all Focal system to correct for Focal's wild ohm swings? Yeah, that is much better than Focal making a rated 4 ohm system that is actually 4 ohms 



jtaudioacc said:


> if the dealer did testing to figure out why only their install, makes passive crossovers have turn on pop or turn off pop, i'm sure an easy solution could be made. just remember, this is the only system they know of with this problem out of thousands of the same crossovers being used.


If the solution is easy, why hasn't Focal's Authorized Network fixed it?



jtaudioacc said:


> so yes, you are right we don't know because the correct troubleshooting hasn't been done in 4 trips. what would you want orca to do?


The solution is easy... Do whatever they need to fix their stinking problem!



jtaudioacc said:


> i'd just get it all replaced at this point or money refunded since the dealer can't fix their problem, and go somewhere else.


If that was an option, I would have done it after my 2nd or 3rd trip!

Btw, you still haven't answered my questions:

1.) How come Focal's Customer Support has went quiet? 

2.) Why is Focal's Customer Support going quiet and not fixing anything acceptable? 

3.) And why don't you automatically think that I am not telling the whole story to the best of my ability?


----------



## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> So since we still don't know the cause of the problem isn't it premature to blame Focal until we know for sure what the problem is?


Did you skim right over the part where I said "some responsibility" and type up a retort? Here:



SQram said:


> I disagree. Orca (Focal) has *some responsibility* in this, that is their product being sold through the retailer.


"Some" as in that's their authorized dealer associated to their product.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> So since we still don't know the cause of the problem isn't it premature to blame Focal until we know for sure what the problem is?


And Focal will never be to blame, if they can't even believe their own Authorized Dealer!


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

SQram said:


> Did you skim right over the part where I said "some responsibility" and type up a retort? Here:
> 
> 
> 
> "Some" as in that's their authorized dealer associated to their product.


He has a turn on pop, nobody here has ever seen or heard of a passive crossover causing a turn on pop. Focal isn't the only brand of equipment installed in the vehicle. How do we know the problem is the Focal equipment and not the Arc amp or any other piece of equipment in the system?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> He has a turn on pop, nobody here has ever seen or heard of a passive crossover causing a turn on pop. Focal isn't the only brand of equipment installed in the vehicle. How do we know the problem is the Focal equipment and not the Arc amp or any other piece of equipment in the system?


Because Focal's Authorized Dealer has said it was Focal's Passive Crossovers on 4 separate occasions. And if Focal - Orca can't believe their own dealers, how in hell are they ever going to believe a retail customer like me???


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> So buy an all Focal system to correct for Focal's wild ohm swings? Yeah, that is much better than Focal making a rated 4 ohm system that is actually 4 ohms
> 
> 
> 
> ...



jesus

1. because they need info to help your issue that hasn't every happened in any other system with those same crossovers. you are the only one.

2. again, out of thousands of the same crossover being used, you are the only one with this issue. 

3. because it's hard to believe a dealer would screw you over this much and not do what they can to help remedy the situation.

there's a BIG part of me that thinks you don't want it to be fixed and just want to complain.  #unsub


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

OP =


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jtaudioacc said:


> jesus
> 
> 1. because they need info to help your issue that hasn't every happened in any other system with those same crossovers. you are the only one.
> 
> ...


1.) They have their own Authorized Dealer telling them exactly what I am saying here!

2.) Do you have any proof that I am the only one?

3.) I can't help what you might believe. I can only answer everyone's questions a clearly as possible.

I want it fixed but, how many times do I need to let Focal's Network pull my chain with nothing being done and receiving the same answer?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Grinder said:


> OP =
> View attachment 227775


Yep and I will continue until they fix their problem. Thank you very much!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Don't you have the amp channels available to run active? 

Ditch the passives. 

Run Active. 

Done.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Don't you have the amp channels available to run active?
> 
> Ditch the passives.
> 
> ...


The Authorized Dealer tried to wire the 6.5" up active and about 4 of us agreed that it sounded better running through the passive crossovers.

I know this goes against popular thinking here and I don't know why but, it did.

So Focal can fix their problem and Done!


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

“He was going to live forever, or die in the attempt.” 
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> He has a turn on pop, nobody here has ever seen or heard of a passive crossover causing a turn on pop. Focal isn't the only brand of equipment installed in the vehicle. How do we know the problem is the Focal equipment and not the Arc amp or any other piece of equipment in the system?



How do you know what everybody on the site has ever seen or heard?

I'm an electrical designer, I design circuitry for a living. 

Theory: The passive network in combination with the speaker coils is/are presenting an unstable load to the amplifier, thus causing either protection circuitry to engage or a momentarily fault in the power supply. I don't know the turn on sequence in the amplifier, ARC would need to comment on that.

When the passive is removed, the total "system" impedance is most likely higher, thus no issues. I'm speculating, but I would guess there is an issue with the values of the inductors connected in parallel across the speaker coils (the high pass section of both the tweeter and/or the woofer if applicable). 

Remove an inductor (such as a speaker coil), put it on a separate channel (as with the redesigned passive network) and your overall system impedance changes.

Again, I'm speculating because I do not know the design of either the passive network, nor the amplifier. But it sure as hell make more sense to chase that therory down rather than telling your customer "just replace your $10,000+ system with a different brand (as another member suggested).


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KillerBox said:


> The Authorized Dealer tried to wire the 6.5" up active and about 4 of us agreed that it sounded better running through the passive crossovers.
> 
> I know this goes against popular thinking here and I don't know why but, it did.
> 
> So Focal can fix their problem and Done!


WOW! Those really are some magical passives, eh?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> The Authorized Dealer tried to wire the 6.5" up active and about 4 of us agreed that it sounded better running through the passive crossovers.
> 
> I know this goes against popular thinking here and I don't know why but, it did.
> 
> So Focal can fix their problem and Done!


So... 

Do a better job tuning. 

Done.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

rton20s said:


> So...
> 
> Do a better job tuning.
> 
> Done.


:dead_horse:


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> So...
> 
> Do a better job tuning.
> 
> Done.


How come your only solutions are me composing instead of Focal fixing their mistakes? 

If their speaker system isn’t 4 ohms, then why rate it as 4 ohms & then modify the crossovers to bi-amp because they go down 0.8 ohms?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> How come your only solutions are me composing instead of Focal fixing their mistakes?
> 
> If their speaker system isn’t 4 ohms, then why rate it as 4 ohms & then modify the crossovers to bi-amp because they go down 0.8 ohms?


Because this isn't strictly a Focal issue. Your dealer put together a system of components that apparently does not play well together. He has refused or is not capable of fixing your issues. 

You've answered your own question as to why they created the bi-amp fix. 

Perhaps you could point your dealer to this thread and ask him to defend his poor performance. Maybe he can walk us through exactly what he has done to troubleshoot and correct your turn on pop issues. Until then, I'm not convinced he has done anything more than let your vehicle take up shop space every time you dropped it off.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

rton20s said:


> So...
> 
> Do a better job tuning.
> 
> Done.


You know, I'd consider you a reputable member here, but comments like this really irk me and degrade this site in general.

He has a valid point in this situation, and he paid a lot of money for his system and it doesn't work properly. Just because members here and his installer for that matter don't understand it (electrical voodoo), doesn't mean it's not valid.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

SQram said:


> You know, I'd consider you a reputable member here, but comments like this really irk me and degrade this site in general.
> 
> He has a valid point in this situation, and he paid a lot of money for his system and it doesn't work properly. Just because members here and his installer for that matter don't understand it (electrical voodoo), doesn't mean it's not valid.


Honestly, my post was intended to irk. I'm good with that. 

This is 13 pages of mostly nonsense, caused primarily by a dealer who either can't or won't do his job. Other dealers have spoken up, Orca has spoken up, DIYers have spoken up, his dealer (while he owes us absolutely nothing) has not said a word. Solutions have been offered and between KB and his dealer, they aren't willing to pursue any of them. 

Live with the pop or pursue a fix. I don't even know what KB expects to be done by Orca or anyone else at this point. Run the drivers active and do a better job tuning seems like the simplest, no cost solution. (Other than a couple hours of the dealers time.) 

If KB insists on running the Focals passive, he might want to try a different amp. We don't even know if this has been tried. It would be interesting to know if switching to a different amp solves the problem.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

SQram said:


> How do you know what everybody on the site has ever seen or heard?


Besides the current situation in which we haven't positively determined this to be the case can you cite one real world example of this happening?




> Theory: The passive network in combination with the speaker coils is/are presenting an unstable load to the amplifier, thus causing either protection circuitry to engage or a momentarily fault in the power supply. I don't know the turn on sequence in the amplifier, ARC would need to comment on that.


We still have two pieces of equipment here, how can you positively identify the speakers as the problem? Maybe there's a stability problem with the amp. Has he ever tried putting a different brand or model of amp in there? All we know for sure is these two pieces of equipment don't play well together. The amp could be fine with any number of other speakers and the speakers could be fine with any number of other amps. This is not a hard issue to troubleshoot or fix, it just seems the dealer has no interest in taking care of his customer.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Like I have stated, I think Focal should ultimately be responsible for their authorized dealers or the Authorized Dealer Network is just about worthless to us consumers.

As far as what I want Focal or Orca to do is to fix their problem. I paid money for a 4 ohm system that works properly. I have already had to buy an extra amp to bi-amp the crossovers to handle their Wild Ohm swings.

When the crossovers were bi-amped is when the turn on pops started.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Perhaps you could point your dealer to this thread and ask him to defend his poor performance. Maybe he can walk us through exactly what he has done to troubleshoot and correct your turn on pop issues. Until then, I'm not convinced he has done anything more than let your vehicle take up shop space every time you dropped it off.


It is not my job to police Focal’s Authorized Dealers. In my opinion, that is what Focal’s Authorized Network should be doing.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

You know, there has been all of this talk and focus on Focal, their dealer network and the value of buying from an authorized dealer. So much so, that several of us looked up who the local Focal dealer was to confirm who did the work and that the product was actually authorized. 

I never bothered to look (and I'm not sure if anyone else did) to see if the same shop was authorized dealer for the Arc amps. If the information on Arc's dealer locator page is up to date, it would appear that TNT is not an authorized dealer. 

Did you buy the Arc amps through TNT KillerBox? If so, and they aren't an authorized dealer, this may provide some explanation as to why they are dead set on blaming any issues on the Focal products rather than Arc. And if you did get them from TNT, I bet Fred & co. would be curious to know where TNT sourced the amps.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> You know, there has been all of this talk and focus on Focal, their dealer network and the value of buying from an authorized dealer. So much so, that several of us looked up who the local Focal dealer was to confirm who did the work and that the product was actually authorized.
> 
> I never bothered to look (and I'm not sure if anyone else did) to see if the same shop was authorized dealer for the Arc amps. If the information on Arc's dealer locator page is up to date, it would appear that TNT is not an authorized dealer.
> 
> Did you buy the Arc amps through TNT KillerBox? If so, and they aren't an authorized dealer, this may provide some explanation as to why they are dead set on blaming any issues on the Focal products rather than Arc. And if you did get them from TNT, I bet Fred & co. would be curious to know where TNT sourced the amps.


No, two amps were from my prior system. The 3rd & 4th amp were bought from an Authorized dealer here on DIYMA. I wanted to keep all the amps the same all four are xDI 1200.6


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQram said:


> But it sure as hell make more sense to chase that theory down rather than telling your customer "just replace your $10,000+ system with a different brand (as another member suggested).



Thank you!


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> No, two amps were from my prior system. The 3rd & 4th amp were bought from an Authorized dealer here on DIYMA. I wanted to keep all the amps the same all four are xDI 1200.6


somehow i got a damn email notification. so i unsubscribed again. it was working for a bit it seems. damn focal.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Besides the current situation in which we haven't positively determined this to be the case can you cite one real world example of this happening?


I didn't make any blanket statements about every forum members opinion here, you did. You answered my question with a question. 



ca90ss said:


> We still have two pieces of equipment here, how can you positively identify the speakers as the problem? Maybe there's a stability problem with the amp. Has he ever tried putting a different brand or model of amp in there? All we know for sure is these two pieces of equipment don't play well together. The amp could be fine with any number of other speakers and the speakers could be fine with any number of other amps. This is not a hard issue to troubleshoot or fix, it just seems the dealer has no interest in taking care of his customer.


I never said I "positively identify" the speakers as the problem, in fact I quoted your post earlier and said:



SQram said:


> Did you skim right over the part where I said "some responsibility" and type up a retort? Here:
> 
> "Some" as in that's their authorized dealer associated to their product.


I posted up a "theory" as to why the system pops based on ohms law, and *the fact Focal/Orca has admitted a flaw in their design (based on ohms law)*. Are you familiar with simple RLC circuit design? 

In you're infinite wisdom you have suggested taking the vehicle back to the dealer for the 5th time as a solution. Throwing endless amounts of cash at a problem is not a viable solution for some people, or perhaps even a dealer for that matter.

Are you familiar with lemon laws, or product recalls when goods are improperly designed/manufacturered? Who foots those bills? The dealers? The customer?


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

SQram said:


> I didn't make any blanket statements about every forum members opinion here, you did. You answered my question with a question.


Whether this has or hasn't happened before is not a matter of opinion, either it has or it hasn't.



> I never said I "positively identify" the speakers as the problem, in fact I quoted your post earlier and said:


Again, how can Focal be responsible either partially or fully if we haven't positively identified that the Focal equipment is the problem? I wouldn't expect Focal to fix a problem with another manufacturers equipment.




> In you're infinite wisdom you have suggested taking the vehicle back to the dealer for the 5th time as a solution. Throwing endless amounts of cash at a problem is not a viable solution for some people, or perhaps even a dealer for that matter.


If you had read the entire thread after his latest trip to the dealer I suggested fixing it himself and even offered to walk him through troubleshooting and fixing it. He shouldn't have to throw any more money at it, he paid the dealer for a working system and that's not what he got. The dealer should do whatever is necessary to fix it and then take it up with Focal or whoever else they need to after. The dealer has shown their incompetence so it seems his options at this point is to take it to a different dealer or fix it himself. Neither of which he is willing to do.




> Are you familiar with lemon laws, or product recalls when goods are improperly designed/manufacturered? Who foots those bills? The dealers? The customer?


When a car has a recall do you have to take the car to the factory to get it repaired or do you take it to a dealer?


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

has there been a video posted showing the problem?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> When a car has a recall do you have to take the car to the factory to get it repaired or do you take it to a dealer?


I take it to the dealer for the first few times. Then when I don't get satisfactory results, I get in touch with the Car Manufacture's Customer Support and let them instruct and/or support the dealer until my car is fixed.

I think that is exactly what I did with Focal's Customer Support. 

Thank you for your example!


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KillerBox said:


> I take it to the dealer for the first few times. Then when I don't get satisfactory results, I get in touch with the Car Manufacture's Customer Support and let them instruct and/or support the dealer until my car is fixed.
> 
> I think that is exactly what I did with Focal's Customer Support.
> 
> Thank you for your example!


You seem to have missed (or dodged) the point.

In your case, the dealer completely dropped the ball ...and then told you to take it up with the manufacturer.

The point is, the manufacturer should foot the bill if the fault is theirs; such issues should be worked out between the dealer and the manufacturer; and the customer shouldn't have to act as an intermediary between the dealer and the manufacturer.


----------



## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Whether this has or hasn't happened before is not a matter of opinion, either it has or it hasn't.


Allow me to refresh your memory:



ca90ss said:


> He has a turn on pop, *nobody here has *ever seen or heard of a passive crossover causing a turn on pop.


You posted an opinion. Your opinion included "nobody here" which is not a fact, that's your opinion.



ca90ss said:


> Again,* how can Focal be responsible* either partially or fully if we haven't positively identified that the Focal equipment is the problem? I wouldn't expect Focal to fix a problem with another manufacturers equipment.


Again, allow me to refresh your memory as per Orca:

What we have run into with the 165 KRX3 is that a lot of amplifiers in the market today,( especially those that are based on full range class D), will not run this system. The* reason behind this is an ohm load swing in the bass driver around 150hz*. When the system is pushed, the *impedance drop is to around .8 ohms stereo*. Now, it is not for very long, but some of the amplifiers out there will not handle this and the go into protection

I'm not a lawyer, but I think that would hold up in court.




ca90ss said:


> If you had read the entire thread after his latest trip to the dealer I suggested fixing it himself and even offered to walk him through troubleshooting and fixing it. He shouldn't have to throw any more money at it, he paid the dealer for a working system and that's not what he got. The dealer should do whatever is necessary to fix it and then take it up with Focal or whoever else they need to after. The dealer has shown their incompetence so it seems his options at this point is to take it to a different dealer or fix it himself. Neither of which he is willing to do.


I've read the thread many times. I've stated I am an electrical designer, and I do electrical fault analysis for a living. I have suggested a theory based on Orca's admission of a design flaw, and a solid understanding of ohms law. You've suggested taking the vehicle back to the dealer for the 5th time. The dealer did not design the equipment, they simply installed it in the car. 





ca90ss said:


> When a car has a recall do you have to take the car to the factory to get it repaired or do you take it to a dealer?


The dealer, *and then the manufacturer foots the bill*. He's been to the dealer 4 times, has the manufacturer offered any solutions? The manufacturer has admitted there is a design flaw but refuses to offer any solutions. The dealer did not design the equipment, the manufacturer did.


----------



## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

Does this issue still hold water with a class A/B amplifier? Maybe a Class A? How about Class G/H?

Seems to me the only issue is using a full range Class D amp. This information should have been known to the dealer. If they keep in touch with Orca or attend the training seminars that Focal puts on at KFest. 

But I digress. Contact Focal, nor Orca, and get them to refund the money, or the speakers, or the crossover, or even give you a new system. But you will need to stipulate that you are running a Class D amp full range so they can match you correctly to your needs. 

All this thread is becoming is a ***** fest. My personal opinion is that the dealer should replace the speakers with the new ones that are compatible with his amp, and they should then hash it out with the US distributor. It should never have gone to the distributor in the first place.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQ Audi said:


> Does this issue still hold water with a class A/B amplifier? Maybe a Class A? How about Class G/H?


As I have previously stated, I don't know. According to Orca, my warranty is only valid if Focal's Authorized Dealer maintains my equipment.



SQ Audi said:


> Seems to me the only issue is using a full range Class D amp. This information should have been known to the dealer. If they keep in touch with Orca or attend the training seminars that Focal puts on at KFest.


To carry on with the vehicle scenarios, when you take your 2013 Hyundai Equus into the Hyundai Dealer, do you know what information that the dealer knows or doesn't know? Or do you think that Hyundai would have some standards?



SQ Audi said:


> But I digress. Contact Focal, nor Orca, and get them to refund the money, or the speakers, or the crossover, or even give you a new system. But you will need to stipulate that you are running a Class D amp full range so they can match you correctly to your needs.


Please give me an email and contact information on someone from Focal. When I purchased my Focal speakers, I had never even heard of Orca. And I really don't care of how Focal's Network operates. I just want them to provide a product that is not flawed.



SQ Audi said:


> All this thread is becoming is a ***** fest.


You can unsubscribe anytime that you would like too but, I will stay here until I get a satisfactory product.



SQ Audi said:


> My personal opinion is that the dealer should replace the speakers with the new ones that are compatible with his amp, and they should then hash it out with the US distributor. It should never have gone to the distributor in the first place.


I mostly agree with your point but, at this point I just want anyone with Focal's Authorized Network to fix it. I don't care what tier level they come from! But, that doesn't seem to be working for me. So I will stay here until I get a satisfactory product.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

SQram said:


> You posted an opinion. Your opinion included "nobody here" which is not a fact, that's your opinion.


There is no opinion here, either I am %100 right or %100 wrong. That is a fact. 



> Again, allow me to refresh your memory as per Orca:
> 
> What we have run into with the 165 KRX3 is that a lot of amplifiers in the market today,( especially those that are based on full range class D), will not run this system. The* reason behind this is an ohm load swing in the bass driver around 150hz*. When the system is pushed, the *impedance drop is to around .8 ohms stereo*. Now, it is not for very long, but some of the amplifiers out there will not handle this and the go into protection
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, but I think that would hold up in court.


And their solution to this problem is to bi-amp the speakers which is what he is now doing. Since according to Orca this solution has worked successfully for others and they haven't experienced this problem before then once again, how do we know the Focal equipment is to blame here and not a design issue with the amp?



> I've read the thread many times. I've stated I am an electrical designer, and I do electrical fault analysis for a living. I have suggested a theory based on Orca's admission of a design flaw, and a solid understanding of ohms law. You've suggested taking the vehicle back to the dealer for the 5th time. The dealer did not design the equipment, they simply installed it in the car.


This is not a hard issue to troubleshoot or fix. A competent dealer could have fixed this in under an hour. 





> The dealer, *and then the manufacturer foots the bill*


Exactly.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

Here is the link to Focal Contact. Took me all of 30 seconds to find it for you. This is not Focal-america (which is Orca), this is Focal.com, the french company. Good luck.

Focal France Contact


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQ Audi said:


> Here is the link to Focal Contact. Took me all of 30 seconds to find it for you. This is not Focal-america (which is Orca), this is Focal.com, the french company. Good luck.
> 
> Focal France Contact


Oh, I thought that you might have a personal contact. I have sent emails to that address before and haven't had a response.

But, I will send another one this afternoon.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

It's not a matter of going silent, I just have not seen a proposed " fix " that would make you happy, when you / your installer have not done all of what has been talked about in this thread. I'm not shifting anything to anyone, I'm just trying to ask questions, and present solutions, as I have earlier, and via messaging. 

If your installer swapped the crossovers with your backup set, and the pop is still present, then it's not the crossovers' direct fault. It's likely the amps protection circuit. You have two unloaded amp channels on this amp as well as a component kit, and class D amps do not exactly like to be unloaded since there is a passive network inside of the amp. Your original install, with a single amp, was fully loaded and the bi-amp mod was bypassed. You had no pop, but the amp was installed as intended. You experienced issues because the instructions included with the components were ignored, regarding the Bi-Amp modification, and why it is there. Also, a low impedance warning and recommendation of high quality amplifier are in the owners manual, that has been the same since 2008. 

If you run your 6 channel amp to just the crossovers and bypass the mods and run only 2 channels, leaving 4 unloaded, and even if the pop goes away, this doesn't mean that it is the crossovers, it still COULD be the amp's protection circuit fighting with something. If the crossover pops with other models of amps, then it's a crossover issue, if it only pops with your xdi 1200.6, then it's an isolated issue with your amp configuration. All products do not always work with each other. 

You / Your installer / An installer could also try bridging the 3&4 and 5&6 outputs of the amp to the woofer inputs of the crossover and try and load the unused channels and see if that doesn't solve the issue. I'm not sure if that has been done, but I don't remember reading it. 

You were told the issue is because of the crossovers, but to the best of my knowledge, yours is the only reported case. If the crossovers were swapped and you have two pair presenting the same issue, then again, I (as an installer) would look up stream. You took the installer amps and tied his/her hands and said this is the amp I'm using. Due to this, you are telling us the fault it ours and we need to fix this, but again, how? This was not addressed with us at the time of install, or we would have told the dealer to try a different model of amplifier that is better suited for the situation, and installed as intended. You waited almost a year to bring it to our attention, and now expect a " fix ". 

My recommendation, along with many others here, is run active and spend time tuning, or try swapping the xdi 1200.6 for a higher quality, non class D 4 channel amplifier. If the speaker set still pops with a different amp, then we have something to worry about. 

As for the repeated claims that Focal / Orca admits a faulty crossover, this is honestly just semantics on how you read it. Focal designed a crossover that works, for what they were trying to do. This crossover tends to lead lower quality or some class D amps to issue because of the impedance swings and issues with amp design. We fixed this in the US by reworking the crossover to be able to be used with more class d amps. We are the only country to perform this modification on all kits. I guess other countries just don't run entry level amps on high end components.

So I ask again, and all previous posts aside, how do you propose that we " fix " this? You are unwilling to try a different amplifier to see if that could be the cause of the problem, just because you want all your amps to be the same amp, so what exact fix do you want done in your vehicle. I know that no matter what I say or do here, I'm going to be wrong, because you say it's out fault, and that we need to fix it because we are at fault, but i'm trying to look at this like an installer. What would I do in my shop to help TRULY fix your problem, not just bandaid over it, and not just blame people without knowing the true cause, just because someone said so.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> There is no opinion here, either I am %100 right or %100 wrong. That is a fact.


A fact can be proven with supporting documentation or evidence. Please show us supporting proof that:



ca90ss said:


> nobody here has ever seen or heard of a passive crossover causing a turn on pop.


If you can't, that is known as an opinion. Those are your words, not mine.



ca90ss said:


> *And their solution to this problem* is to bi-amp the speakers which is what he is now doing. Since according to Orca this solution has worked successfully for others and they haven't experienced this problem before then once again, how do we know the Focal equipment is to blame here and not a design issue with the amp?


Excellent, you admit there is a design problem which required a solution. So it is entirely possible that the Focal speakers could cause an issue with the amplifier, I'm glad you've come around.



ca90ss said:


> This is not a hard issue to troubleshoot or fix. A competent dealer could have fixed this in under an hour.


Again, I do electrical fault analysis on a much larger scale than a car audio shop for a living. Replacing equipment is not troubleshooting, it's just replacing equipment. Troubleshooting is testing, analyzing, finding the underlying issue, understanding it, and investigating possible solutions. Not simply throwing money at it by replacing equipment with different equipment. That's called pissing money away. 



ca90ss said:


> Exactly.


 Great, you agree. He's been to the dealer 4 times for a problem the manufacturer admits exists, at what point are they obligated to help?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

SQram said:


> Excellent, you admit there is a design problem which required a solution. So it is entirely possible that the Focal speakers could cause an issue with the amplifier, I'm glad you've come around.


There was a different problem that was solved by the crossover modification. There is no evidence that the current issue is caused by the same issue.





> Again, I do electrical fault analysis on a much larger scale than a car audio shop for a living. Replacing equipment is not troubleshooting, it's just replacing equipment. Troubleshooting is testing, analyzing, finding the underlying issue, understanding it, and investigating possible solutions. Not simply throwing money at it by replacing equipment with different equipment. That's called pissing money away.


What's more important to him, having a working system or knowing why it doesn't work? I never said he had to keep throwing money at new equipment, cobb just suggested several potential solutions and if none of those work it could likely be fixed with a timer and a relay.



> you agree. He's been to the dealer 4 times for a problem the manufacturer admits exists, at what point are they obligated to help?


I agree that the dealer should have fixed it and then taken the issue up with the manufacturer after fixing it. Again, the distributor admits there was a problem, not this specific problem. How do they solve a problem not knowing whether of not this is their problem to solve?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> It's not a matter of going silent, I just have not seen a proposed " fix " that would make you happy, when you / your installer have not done all of what has been talked about in this thread. I'm not shifting anything to anyone, I'm just trying to ask questions, and present solutions, as I have earlier, and via messaging.


Our question and answer time should have been over when I dropped my vehicle off at Focal's Authorized Dealer for the 4th time because I will quote your response below:


cobb2819 said:


> There is not a lot we can do until the vehicle is in the possession of the dealer, and that is not up to us.


The vehicle was dropped off per your request and my problem still exists.




cobb2819 said:


> If your installer swapped the crossovers with your backup set, and the pop is still present, then it's not the crossovers' direct fault. It's likely the amps protection circuit.


Stop the presses right here! Don't just call him my installer because this is also your Authorized Dealer and I asked you to get in touch with them so that my problem would be fixed.




cobb2819 said:


> Also, a low impedance warning and recommendation of high quality amplifier are in the owners manual, that has been the same since 2008.


This is not true because my first set did not have the added sheet in owner manual. Furthermore you would think that if Focal realized since 2008 that the speaker set dropped down to 0.8 ohms that they might quit rating this system as 4 ohms?




cobb2819 said:


> You / Your installer / An installer could also try bridging the 3&4 and 5&6 outputs of the amp to the woofer inputs of the crossover and try and load the unused channels and see if that doesn't solve the issue. I'm not sure if that has been done, but I don't remember reading it.


You would think that your Authorized Dealer and you would have discussed this as a possible solution before I brought the vehicle in again for the 4th time!



cobb2819 said:


> You took the installer amps and tied his/her hands and said this is the amp I'm using. Due to this, you are telling us the fault it ours and we need to fix this, but again, how?


Let me use some Focal style of reasoning... I can't believe that you tied Focal's Authorized Installer hands by supplying a speaker system with Wild Ohm swings but, it was rated as a 4 ohm system. Due to this, you are telling me that the fault is mine because my amps don't like to dip down to .8 ohms???



cobb2819 said:


> My recommendation, along with many others here, is run active and spend time tuning, or try swapping the xdi 1200.6 for a higher quality, non class D 4 channel amplifier. If the speaker set still pops with a different amp, then we have something to worry about.


My first recommendation is to rate your speakers at the right ohms ratings in the first place. My second recommendation is to pick up the phone and talk with your dealers when customers come to you with a problem. My third recommendation is you to discuss with your Authorized Dealer in troubleshooting methods because I don't care how y'all fix it as long as it is fixed. 



cobb2819 said:


> I guess other countries just don't run entry level amps on high end components.


I didn't know that Arc Audio xDI 1200.6 amps were entry level amps. To me they preform exactly to their specs which is more than I can say about my 0.8 ohm but rated 4 ohm Focal speakers.



cobb2819 said:


> So I ask again, and all previous posts aside, how do you propose that we " fix " this? You are unwilling to try a different amplifier to see if that could be the cause of the problem, just because you want all your amps to be the same amp, so what exact fix do you want done in your vehicle. I know that no matter what I say or do here, I'm going to be wrong, because you say it's out fault, and that we need to fix it because we are at fault, but i'm trying to look at this like an installer. What would I do in my shop to help TRULY fix your problem, not just bandaid over it, and not just blame people without knowing the true cause, just because someone said so.


I want to drop my vehicle off at Focal's Authorized Dealer and then pick it up say within 3 days and my system work properly. As I have said before, I am not out to beat anyone out of anything. So what about this, Focal's Customer Service actually talk with Focal's Authorized Dealer and y'all let me know what you purpose to fix it.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SQram said:


> Great, you agree. He's been to the dealer 4 times for a problem the manufacturer admits exists, at what point are they obligated to help?


Different problem, not original problem. Manufacturer never admits turn on pop problem is widespread. It seems isolated in this case, so...not the problem. In the owners manual this is started, and not an issues with a quality Class A/B or Class A amplifier, which these speakers were designed to be paired with.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

cobb2819 said:


> Different problem, not original problem. Manufacturer never admits turn on pop problem is widespread. It seems isolated in this case, so...not the problem.


Maybe I should be doing your job? Here is another case:



terryna said:


> interesting, i had the same problem


From this post:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/69522-need-help-focal-165krx3-crossover-asap-2.html


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SQram said:


> Maybe I should be doing your job? Here is another case:
> 
> From this post:
> 
> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/69522-need-help-focal-165krx3-crossover-asap-2.html


A user from Germany who has 12 posts, all form the same day, all of which are the same/or variations of "interesting, i had the same problem" or "interesting, I have the same". I'm gonna go with not a real situation.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/search.php?searchid=29997223

What is your solution to this, since my job is so easy?


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

cobb2819 said:


> A user from Germany who has 12 posts, all form the same day, all of which are the same/or variations of "interesting, i had the same problem" or "interesting, I have the same". I'm gonna go with not a real situation.
> 
> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/search.php?searchid=29997223
> 
> What is your solution to this, since my job is so easy?


What the hell does post count have to do with amplifier/speaker issues? Is that what you ask your customers when they call you up for support? Whats your call count?

Here's your problem, this is right out of the product manual. If there are no issues with this component set, who ever slipped this "revision" in should be fired, like right now. 

*"This set up creates extreme impedance loads for the amplifiers not designed to handle loads less than 1 ohm"
*


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SQram said:


> What the hell does post count have to do with amplifier/speaker issues? Is that what you ask your customers when they call you up for support? Whats your call count?
> 
> Here's your problem, this is right out of the product manual. If there are no issues with this component set, who ever slipped this "revision" in should be fired, like right now.
> 
> ...


Dude, did you click on the link I posted? it has nothing to do with post count, it was a bot or a user trying to build a post count, and not an actual person with "the same problem."

As for the person that " Slipped in this revision ", why should they be fired exactly? I'm really curious.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

This has turned into such a pissing match, I heard Trump is cancelling his next rally and bringing some Russian hookers to join in. 




> Stop the presses right here! Don't just call him my installer because this is also your Authorized Dealer and I asked you to get in touch with them so that my problem would be fixed.


I'm not sure how that's relevant to the question you were asked. Did TNT ever swap the passives out for the backup passives? If so, did the pop go away?



> This is not true because my first set did not have the added sheet in owner manual. Furthermore you would think that if Focal realized since 2008 that the speaker set dropped down to 0.8 ohms that they might quit rating this system as 4 ohms?





> Let me use some Focal style of reasoning... I can't believe that you tied Focal's Authorized Installer hands by supplying a speaker system with Wild Ohm swings but, it was rated as a 4 ohm system. Due to this, you are telling me that the fault is mine because my amps don't like to dip down to .8 ohms???





> My first recommendation is to rate your speakers at the right ohms ratings in the first place.


Methinks you've not ever looked at an impedance curve. Granted 0.8 is pretty extreme, but you realize speakers don't stay at 4 ohms constantly, right? It is dependent on frequency, among other things. If you were "seeing" a 0.8 ohm load for any significant amount of time, your amp would likely give you the middle finger and head into Protectland. The load an amplifier sees when you're listening to music, and the resistance of the coil at rest are not the same thing. 




> My second recommendation is to pick up the phone and talk with your dealers when customers come to you with a problem. My third recommendation is you to discuss with your Authorized Dealer in troubleshooting methods because I don't care how y'all fix it as long as it is fixed. I want to drop my vehicle off at Focal's Authorized Dealer and then pick it up say within 3 days and my system work properly. As I have said before, I am not out to beat anyone out of anything. So what about this, Focal's Customer Service actually talk with Focal's Authorized Dealer and y'all let me know what you purpose to fix it.





> In a nutshell for those just tuning in:
> 
> 1.) Focal's Authorized Dealer says that the problem is in the Focal's Passive Crossovers.
> 
> ...




We get you're frustrated and you have a right to be. Nobody wants their **** not working, especially when they've shelled out money. What I don't get is why at this point, you're essentially folding your arms and pouting. Since you are either unwilling or unable to answer any questions about what has been tried already, it sounds to me like if ORCA calls the shop and tells them exactly what was just typed here in terms of instructions/options, it will either A) solve your problem or B ) isolate the problem. The amp config suggestions/passive swap seem like a pretty logical place to start. If it ends up that your Arc amps don't work well with the Focal impedance swing, then you can hopefully exchange for a different set, or find an A/B Arc amp that will tolerate the load shifts better. I hope you get it figured out.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

cobb2819 said:


> Dude, did you click on the link I posted? it has nothing to do with post count, it was a bot or a user trying to build a post count, and not an actual person with "the same problem."



Is this absolutely a fact by checking the ip address or is it just assumed? If it is absolutely a fact, then why haven't they been banned yet?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Niebur3 said:


> Is this absolutely a fact by checking the ip address or is it just assumed? If it is absolutely a fact, then why haven't they been banned yet?


I think it's more "the only other alleged case of this is from a guy who post-whored on the forum in one day with a single vague reply about having the same problem." Look at all of his posts. I don't see a reason to suspend our usual "spot-a-post-whore" tactics here. 

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/search.php?searchid=29997375


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Is this absolutely a fact by checking the ip address or is it just assumed? If it is absolutely a fact, then why haven't they been banned yet?


it's the first that it's ever been brought this user the attention of mods. I just clicked the link and investigated the situation. If you'd like me to ban them, now that there are other witnesses to the situation, then I can have another mod confirm and do so, but that will delete posts, and I don't want to make it look like i was trying to cover something up.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

IMG_0113 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr

Click the picture, watch the video, listen for the pop at the end /thread.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

terryna said:


> subscribed, this seems like a very interesting thread


He even replied in this thread. He's having the same problem but all he has to say is that this thread seems "very interesting"?  :laugh:


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> IMG_0113 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/, on Flickr
> 
> Click the picture, watch the video, listen for the pop at the end /thread.


That is not even close to how loud my turn on pop is. And mine is absolutely quiet on turn off.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> That is not even close to how loud my turn on pop is. And mine is absolutely quiet on turn off.





> I didn't know that Arc Audio xDI 1200.6 amps were entry level amps. To me they preform exactly to their specs which is more than I can say about my 0.8 ohm but rated 4 ohm Focal speakers.


What you might be more concerned with is, why is another XDI demonstrating a turn-on pop with a different set of speakers, on a test bench? With unloaded channels, no less, like ORCA just stated. Does your pop come through the mid or the tweeter? That may have something to do with how loud it is...


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> That is not even close to how loud my turn on pop is. And mine is absolutely quiet on turn off.


*facepalm* does your amps led turn on when you turn it off? :laugh::laugh:


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> That is not even close to how loud my turn on pop is. And mine is absolutely quiet on turn off.


Different speakers, different crossover but there is still a pop. The difference in volume could be due to a number of reasons but the fact remains that it's there and there are no Focal speakers in sight. Mine is also silent on turn off.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Btw, my Focal FDP 4.600 hooked up in the exact same way has no turn on pop.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

The amps did not pop in the prior system & they did not pop when they were not bi-amped in this system.

Furthermore I would hope that Focal’s duly Authorized Dealers would know how to check for that issue after say the 3rd time that I took my SUV in for the same problem. Unless Focal’s Dealer Authorization is totally & completely worthless?


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> The amps did not pop in the prior system & they did not pop when they were not bi-amped in this system.
> 
> Furthermore I would hope that Focal’s duly Authorized Dealers would know how to check for that issue after say the 3rd time that I took my SUV in for the same problem. Unless Focal’s Dealer Authorization is totally & completely worthless?


:laugh::laugh:


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> The amps did not pop in the prior system & they did not pop when they were not bi-amped in this system.
> 
> Furthermore I would hope that Focal’s duly Authorized Dealers would know how to check for that issue after say the 3rd time that I took my SUV in for the same problem. Unless Focal’s Dealer Authorization is totally & completely worthless?


It's not a Focal issue. You're blaming Focal for a problem with an Arc amp. The dealer is also authorized to sell several different brands, if you're going to blame Focal then why not blame those brands as well for allowing him to be a dealer?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> It's not a Focal issue. You're blaming Focal for a problem with an Arc amp. The dealer is also authorized to sell several different brands, if you're going to blame Focal then why not blame those brands as well for allowing him to be a dealer?


A Focal Dealer told me the problem is with Focal’s passive crossovers. I have no reason to doubt Focal’s Dealer on this.

Even if Focal’s Dealer is incompetent that is still Focal’s problem & it shouldn’t be mine. So I asked Focal’s Customer Service for help & all I have gotten is lip service.


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## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> A Focal Dealer told me the problem is with Focal’s passive crossovers. I have no reason to doubt Focal’s Dealer on this.
> 
> Even if Focal’s Dealer is incompetent that is still Focal’s problem & it shouldn’t be mine. So I asked Focal’s Customer Service for help & all I have gotten is lip service.


So, the real question is did the dealer use a different amplifier to test the setup and see if the arc amp is the issue? If not, why not?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Furthermore my other 2 Arc Audio amps that are powering the other 3 sets of Focal ES speakers don’t pop. It is only when any of Arc Audio is powering the modified passive crossovers on the KRX3 Speakers do any of the amps pop.

So in my opinion & Focal’s Authorized Dealer’s opinion the Arc Audio amps are NOT the problem.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> So in my opinion & Focal’s Authorized Dealer’s opinion the Arc Audio amps are NOT the problem.


My video seems to indicate otherwise.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

wizzi001 said:


> So, the real question is did the dealer use a different amplifier to test the setup and see if the arc amp is the issue? If not, why not?


I don’t know what they used to test with. They did not give me their test procedures. But, I did ask Focal Customer Service to talk with them before I took my SUV back in for the fourth time. 

So maybe Focal Customer Sevice can answer those questions


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> My video seems to indicate otherwise.


Maybe you should train their Authorized Dealers


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

cobb2819 said:


> Dude, did you click on the link I posted? it has nothing to do with post count, it was a bot or a user trying to build a post count, and not an actual person with "the same problem."
> 
> As for the person that " Slipped in this revision ", why should they be fired exactly? I'm really curious.


Cobb, I'll try and explain why this is an issue, if I type this all out I would expect the same consideration from you and you try and understand where I'm going with this. I have avoided trying to explain this because I do not know the amplifier design nor the passive network design, so this is a high level theory.


The filter section in a class D amplifier contains inductors and capacitors that form a low pass filter or choke to filter out the switching noise from the power supply

A speaker voice coil is an inductor

In general terms, a passive crossover is a combination of inductors and capacitors that form high pass and or low pass filters depending on the design

Here's the important part, *all of the components listed above form one large RLC circuit in a Class D amplifier. * Class A/B amplifiers do not have output filters because the power supplies are linear. That's why they work with your set.

So, how does a Class D amplifier manufacturer design the output filter in the amplifier if the speaker components are part of the calculation? They assume a 2-4 ohm final impedance load will be connected to the outputs, this can then be used to calculate the entire RLC circuit and select the values of the components for the filter section in the amplifier. If you'd like a solid explanation with pictures, "Google Class D output filter". 

So lets say a speaker manufacturer makes a component set outside of the usual 2-4 ohm impedance, and it has an overall impedance of .8 ohms. The overall circuit impedance including the filter in the amplifier goes down, and currents go up. The protection circuitry in the amplifer is set to a value that differs from amplifier to amplifier, some trip, some don't. Your speaker engineer who redesigned the passive network and added the "revision" in the manual was aware of this, hence the warning.

So, how could this be related to turn on pop? Inductors (in the amp, passive, and voice coil) draw maximum current when they are initially charged and decay as CEMF rises over 5 time constants. So, if a protection circuit is close to engaging, *the inrush current may be just enough to momentarily engage the circuit.* With the passive connected, the overall circuit impedance is different than with out it, thus why it may work in one configuration, and not the other (current is inversely proportional to impedance),

Again, this is just a hunch, not solid proof. So, Focal has designed and sold a speaker set with an abnormal impedance and included a warning with their speakers. The amplifier was designed to work with a load with a final impedance above 2 ohms (and probably does so just fine). Who's at fault? Thats for you to decide, but this sure doesn't look good on Focal/Orca's behalf if you understand RLC circuits.

If I was your customer, I would be pissed if my dealer told me to replace the entire system because it doesn't work (jtaudio I'm looking at you now that you resubscribed).


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Using the class of the amp as a scape goat is BS. I’ve used dozens of class ds and never had issues. Never. 
A speaker is not designed for a certain class. 
It may very well be a faulty amp but no rep should ever have that class is the issue mindset. That sounds like something you hear on IJWB Facebook.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

Red Saber said:


> Using the class of the amp as a scape goat is BS. I’ve used dozens of class ds and never had issues. Never.
> A speaker is not designed for a certain class.
> It may very well be a faulty amp but no rep should ever have that class is the issue mindset. That sounds like something you hear on IJWB Facebook.


It does matter, Class D amps have "filters" on the outputs. Read above.


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

SQram said:


> If I was your customer, I would be pissed if my dealer told me to replace the entire system because it doesn't work (jtaudio I'm looking at you now that you resubscribed).


because the dude got screwed. he keeps blaming focal. any installer in this thread knows there wasn't sufficient testing done. that's clearly obvious, yet, it's "focals fault". 

people just Can't Understand Normal Thinking. :laugh::laugh:

since it's "Focal's fault", get rid of all it. seems simple enough. keyboard technicians for the win!! :laugh::laugh:


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> Maybe you should train their Authorized Dealers


It's not a problem exclusive to Focal. 



KillerBox said:


> As far as I know, this dealer's has Focal, Rockford, Polk Audio, AudioPipe, PowerBass, Kenwood and Pioneer.


Apparently none of these brands train their dealers either since their authorized dealer couldn't fix a simple issue. Hell, it took me <15 minutes to duplicate your problem with different speakers and figure out an easy way to fix it.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> It's not a problem exclusive to Focal.
> 
> Apparently none of these brands train their dealers either since their authorized dealer couldn't fix a simple issue. Hell, it took me <15 minutes to duplicate your problem with different speakers and figure out an easy way to fix it.


I didn’t see were you duplicated my problem. If you are talking about that video, you aren’t even close.

Furthermore I didn’t get those other brands installed but, if I did & my installer said they were causing my problem, I would definitely try to get them to stand behind their product and dealer.

So I will state again, Focal’s Dealer said on 4 different occasions that the problem is with the passive crossovers on the KRX3 System.

The KRX3 System is the only passive crossovers that cause the problem.

The KRX3 System only creates the problem when it is bi-amped.

So I agree with Focal’s Authorized Dealer that the passive crossovers are causing the problem.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> I didn’t see were you duplicated my problem. If you are talking about that video, you aren’t even close.
> 
> Furthermore I didn’t get those other brands installed but, if I did & my installer said they were causing my problem, I would definitely try to get them to stand behind their product and dealer.
> 
> ...


Then post a video of your problem, so we can compare the issue you're having to the one he recreated. 

I feel like at this point, you're seeing only what you want to see. 

You've been asked several times if you swapped the passives for your spares. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see you answer that. 

You've been asked if you tried bridging your mids so there are no unused channels on your Arc- an incredibly simple solution that also provides tons more headroom to your mids- and I don't see any acknowledgement of you/TNT trying that either.

You either have no idea if TNT tried other amps, or you're not willing to, in order to rule out that your Arc amp could just as easily be causing the problem. The exact same amp was just demonstrated by ca90ss to have a turn-on pop through a tweeter with unloaded channels, just like yours, with a different brand of speaker. Your response? "Mine is WAY louder than that." 

Focal has acknowledged that the set has the potential to create issues, and created a workaround, even though there are thousands of sets in circulation currently and yours seems to be one of the only ones anyone can find that is having a problem, and the US is the only place where this workaround has been implemented, meaning people overseas are making these sets work just the way they come.

We are a community that thrives on troubleshooting as a means of solving problems, which is why we're all brainstorming; you on the other hand, seem to be here simply to ***** as a means of publicly forcing Focal/ORCA/TNT into "making this right" and you've even said you have little interest in what the fix entails so long as it gets fixed. With that attitude, all the suggestions from members here are falling on deaf ears. Or ears with fingers in them, while you say "my expensive speakers make a noise, and it's not my amp's fault. I want some new ones."


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

According to Orca, my warranty is void if I maintain my Focal system (unless somehow you missed their sly little disclaimer?)

As far as I know, no one has tried bridging the Arc Audio channels because we didn’t want to send them amps into protection mode because of the Wild Ohm Swings.

Furthermore the experts on this thread told me to take my SUV back to Focal’s Authorized Dealer for the 4th & they would make it right. I knew then that it was lip service & 3 days without my vehicle again & sure enough more Focal lip service.

I will say one more time, I don’t know what procedures Focal’s Dealer used to determine that Focal’s crossovers are faulty. That is something Focal needs to ask their dealer.

Let me say this too, in my opinion Focal’s Customer Service has done nothing other than give me lip service & the time for lip service has passed when I took my SUV back in for the 4th time.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> According to Orca, my warranty is void if I maintain my Focal system (unless somehow you missed their sly little disclaimer?)
> 
> Furthermore the experts on this thread told me to take my SUV back to Focal’s Authorized Dealer for the 4th & they would make it right. I knew then that it was lip service & 3 days without my vehicle again & sure enough more Focal lip service.
> 
> ...


So take your passives down to TNT and watch them do it.  All I'm saying is if this was my car, I would have been way more invested in the attempted fixes, instead of folding my arms going "I don't care how you fix this and I don't care to know; it's your fault so just make it right." For how much you're griping about the whole thing, you don't seem very involved in what's actually been happening to your car. The first time it went back to the shop, I'd ask exactly what they tried, and why it did or didn't work, and what they planned to try next. This whole withdrawn, legal-ish mantra you keep repeating about "I don't know what _Focal_ told _Focal's dealer_ to blah blah blah..."  Reach down and find your stones, bro.

Edit:


> As far as I know, no one has tried bridging the Arc Audio channels because we didn’t want to send them amps into protection mode because of the *Wild Ohm Swings*.


I don't know why, but every time you use that phrase, all I can picture is:

*Buffalo Wild Ohm Swings*

Stop capitalizing it like it's a proper noun, for Christ's sake. :laugh:


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

jtaudioacc said:


> because the dude got screwed. he keeps blaming focal. any installer in this thread knows there wasn't sufficient testing done. that's clearly obvious, yet, it's "focals fault".
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If you read the entire post and try and understand it, you’ll see Focal designed a component set out side of “an industry standard “. Amplifier manufactures can not build an amplifier without knowing what impedance the load will present on the outputs, that’s why they have impedance ratings. IE- 75W per at 4 ohms per channel. Notice the 4 ohm part? That is part of the design parameters of the amplifier. In simple terms, that’s their way of saying “we made this to work with a 4 ohm impedance across the outputs, anything less and it may not work properly”.

Orca knows their component set does not fall within the industry standard (greater than 2 ohms). Their own engineer even states that in the manual in vague terms: Warning: our set may or may not work with your amplifier. Nick has mentioned the impedance drop on this forum.

So yes, Focal/Orca definitely should shoulder some responsibility. Saying “you bought a component set that does not work so get rid of it” is asinine. 

I hope you weren’t referring to me as a keyboard technician, I’d be glad to compare credentials with you. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> So take your passives down to TNT and watch them do it.  All I'm saying is if this was my car, I would have been way more invested in the attempted fixes, instead of folding my arms going "I don't care how you fix this and I don't care to know; it's your fault so just make it right." For how much you're griping about the whole thing, you don't seem very involved in what's actually been happening to your car. The first time it went back to the shop, I'd ask exactly what they tried, and why it did or didn't work, and what they planned to try next. This whole withdrawn, legal-ish mantra you keep repeating about "I don't know what _Focal_ told _Focal's dealer_ to blah blah blah..."  Reach down and find your stones, bro.


Yep, he didn't ask the dealer the questions that needed to be asked and he is blaming Focal for not communicating with him. He is just as guilty of not communicating with the dealer to try real troubleshooting. I mean this may not even be Focal's problem, but he keeps blaming Focal for it.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

SQram said:


> If you read the entire post and try and understand it, you’ll see Focal designed a component set out side of “an industry standard “. Amplifier manufactures can not build an amplifier without knowing what impedance the load will present on the outputs, that’s why they have impedance ratings. IE- 75W per at 4 ohms per channel. Notice the 4 ohm part? That is part of the design parameters of the amplifier. In simple terms, that’s their way of saying “we made this to work with a 4 ohm impedance across the outputs, anything less and it may not work properly”.
> 
> Orca knows their component set does not fall within the industry standard (greater than 2 ohms). Their own engineer even states that in the manual in vague terms: Warning: our set may or may not work with your amplifier. Nick has mentioned the impedance drop on this forum.
> 
> ...


Why don't you just post some images of your diploma and licensing credentials and get it over with? Those blue balls have to be excruciating by now.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

wizzi001 said:


> I mean this may not even be Focal's problem, but he keeps blaming Focal for it.


Focal’s Dealer says it is a Focal problem. Focal also admits to modifying the crossovers. So yes, I blame Focal for it.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> This whole withdrawn, legal-ish mantra you keep repeating about "I don't know what _Focal_ told _Focal's dealer_ to blah blah blah..."  Reach down and find your stones, bro.


My stones are just fine! I will say what I want & when I want & as much as I want. I have done what I was supposed to do & Focal Network and/or Product are what failed. 

Besides Orca is the one that hardly & vaguely answers in legal-ish mantra & for some reason y’all just accept it from them. 

I seriously think some people on this thread is somehow connected to Focal or Orca’s representive buddy.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

mikey7182 said:


> Why don't you just post some images of your diploma and licensing credentials and get it over with? Those blue balls have to be excruciating by now.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

If the OP can't work on the problem due to warranty being void or because he doesn't know enough to really help the situation, why is he required to? I'm sure his dealer would love him coming in and saying, "people on the internet told me to try this....". 

I see both sides, but the OP shouldn't have to get a degree in electrical engineering to help his installer or Focal fix the issue. 

I just had to have the Vtec Actuator replaced (under warranty) on my car and it took me 3-4 times to the dealer and anytime I mentioned the "internet", they rolled their eyes and wouldn't listen. I had to research myself and really press to get the warranty work done. The dealer at one point knew of a workaround and would use it to show me there wasn't a problem and it wasn't until I refused to let them start my car that I was able to duplicate the issue. 

I don't think people should have to go to this extent to get something fixed that isn't working right. I think it is ****ty that his installer isn't doing everything in their power to get this corrected. I think it is equally as ****ty that Focal just slaps a disclaimer that their product that has a known issue without standing behind the dealer/customer with a simple fix. 

If it was my car, I would buy a processor and go active and have MUCH better sound than any passive can give me.....and then throw the passives in a bon fire and post that video !


BTW, CA90SS, aren't you employed by ORCA?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> My stones are just fine! I will say what I want & when I want & as much as I want. I have done what I was supposed to do & Focal Network and/or Product are what failed.
> 
> Besides Orca is the one that hardly & vaguely answers in legal-ish mantra & for some reason y’all just accept it from them.
> 
> I seriously think some people on this thread is somehow connected to Focal or Orca’s representive buddy.


"My stones are just fine!"

"I'll continue to whine and wait for someone else to solve this for me, rather than advocate for myself!"

I swear, you couldn't make some of this stuff up. You really would rather whine about this than go down to TNT and ask them what they did specifically to troubleshoot? How can you say you have no reason to doubt their diagnosis of the issue when you have no idea what they did to troubleshoot the install??

If my S4 was having problems surging after I installed my intake, and I took it back to the shop, and all they said was "well CTS Turbo modified the O2 sensor here, so it's clearly that. You'll have to take it up with CTS Turbo" I'd ask them to list everything they did to actually diagnose the problem and rule out other possibilities, especially when there are thousands of other cars running the same CTS Turbo CAI with NO PROBLEMS. And if someone posted a video on Audizine showing that another piece of equipment I was running demonstrated having the same issue, I'd sure as **** pay attention to that instead of dismissing it, if my goal was to _resolve my issue_ as opposed to _having it resolved for me for free._ If it is determined to be the intake, my shop who is a CTS Turbo dealer and who SOLD me the intake and installed it, should be replacing the intake with one that does not have the O2 sensor issue. It has nothing to do with CTS Turbo. That dealer replaces the faulty gear and deals with recovering the return with the manufacturer separately. That has nothing to do with the consumer and should never involve them, unless the consumer purchased the equipment directly from the manufacturer to begin with.

How many times do we have to ask you what's been done already, while you ignore the question and keep repeating the same nonsense about it being Focal's fault? You know that list you made a few pages back, for "those just tuning in" to catch everyone up? How about you make one of those, detailing what's been tried on your car to remedy this? 

Here's my take: TNT gets your car in after the initial install, and can't figure it out. Focal states that their crossovers have been modified as a patch/fix for a potential issue when being used with certain amplifiers- which, by the way, is NOT the same as admitting fault, as you keep repeating. The modification was a remedy to a potential issue, not the cause of the issue. TNT leans on this- probably because they're tired of dealing with you and it's easy to point a finger at the modified crossover being the problem rather than actually spend much time diagnosing and chasing down other potential causes- then passes the buck to the manufacturer, stating that as a dealer, their hands are tied and at this point it's "up to Focal to decide what to do." Now you're caught in the middle of a volleyball game that you aren't a player in, watching the blame get passed back and forth, when the game never would have started at all had you asserted yourself and asked for a detailed list of what the shop did to try and figure out where the problem was.

You don't want it to be the Arc amp, because an Arc amp won't get replaced for free. You can't ***** at Arc the way you're bitching at Focal, and allowing the Arc amp to become a factor in the issue you're having draws blame away from Focal which you've tried very hard to maintain. It's easier to keep repeating "Focal admitted modifying the passive which = admitting fault" and "Focal's dealer told Focal that it's Focal's fault." You won't post a video showing us what it's doing. You won't provide a list of what's been tried to rule out it being the Arc amp or any other piece of the install. Just keep repeating your mantra until it hopefully sticks. You can either be the squeaky wheel, or you can be the grease.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Niebur3 said:


> BTW, CA90SS, aren't you employed by ORCA?


Nope, I do live about 20 minutes away from them but I do boat electronics.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

FOCAL's POOR CUSTOMER SUPPORT in my matter has been very poor at best.

And for some reason y’all give them a free pass on this, on my car going to their dealer 4 times, the way they answer stuff in legalizee and how they can void my warranty if I touch my Focal equipment. Why is that?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Nope, I do live about 20 minutes away from them but I do boat electronics.


So have you ever did any type of work, contracted or installed stuff for Orca or Focal?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> So have you ever did any type of work, contracted or installed stuff for Orca or Focal?


Nope, haven't done car audio in any way other than as a hobby.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> FOCAL's POOR CUSTOMER SUPPORT in my matter has been very poor at best.
> 
> And for some reason y’all give them a free pass on this, on my car going to their dealer 4 times, the way they answer stuff in legalizee and how they can void my warranty if I touch my Focal equipment. Why is that?


First off, you haven't ever heard from Focal. You've heard from ORCA and TNT. This is why members have told you to be clear about who you're communicating with. 

Nobody is giving anyone a free pass. If the problem is Focal product, then TNT should have made this right, as their dealer. That's the point of having dealers: there aren't "Focal stores" like there are Apple stores. There is absolutely no reason it should have ended up at a national distributor unless you lived too far from an authorized dealer. 

If I go to a Best Buy and purchase a Pioneer head unit, and end up having some issue with my speakers, I take it back to Best Buy, where they say one of two things:

1) "our techs looked at it, and it turns out the issue is the Pioneer HU you bought- there's a design flaw in the PICO fuse they use and it's causing engine noise. Sorry for the inconvenience; We'll exchange that faulty HU for a different one." 

Or 2) "Your Pioneer HU is fine. The issue is being caused by a loose speaker terminal, etc. etc. Here are some replacement options for you." 

Best Buy doesn't say "It's your Pioneer HU. You'll have to contact the national distributor for Pioneer and resolve it with them in order to get approval for a replacement." So why is it that TNT is telling you to deal with their distributor, or the manufacturer directly? What is it you're missing here? You see why we're skeptical? Particularly when you seem hell-bent on avoiding providing any details as to the troubleshooting process, let alone the timeframe? When did you originally purchase the speakers? When were they installed? How long after the purchase did you start having issues? How long has this been going on for?


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## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

Isn't cobb2819 Focal/Orca? His/her last post sure was a dance on how to avoid taking responsibility.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Bizarroterl said:


> Isn't cobb2819 Focal/Orca? His/her last post sure was a dance on how to avoid taking responsibility.


Yes, Cobb is Focal/Orca. Definitely all of his posts are a dance on how to avoid responsibility. But for some reason, he can do this & some people around defend him


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Bizarroterl said:


> Isn't cobb2819 Focal/Orca? His/her last post sure was a dance on how to avoid taking responsibility.


Responsibility for what, a problem with a different manufacturers amp? If his transmission goes out should he blame Focal for that too? Just because he had a separate problem with the Focal equipment in his system doesn't mean every problem in his system is their fault. Seems to me the person that should be taking responsibility is his installer for his shoddy work.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Responsibility for his Legal Sleaze style of answers


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> Responsibility for his Legal Sleaze style of answers


I see no problem with them protecting themselves from people like you who falsely blame them for issues that aren't their fault.

We're just trying to help you but it's obvious you're more concerned with whining about it that actually fixing it. Enjoy your broken system, at this point you only have yourself to blame.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Enjoy your broken system, at this point you only have yourself to blame.


Didn’t you say something very similar that was my fault if I didn’t take it back to the dealer for the 4th time? I did & FOCAL's CUSTOMER SUPPORT did nothing again.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SQram said:


> Again, this is just a hunch, not solid proof. So, Focal has designed and sold a speaker set with an abnormal impedance and included a warning with their speakers. The amplifier was designed to work with a load with a final impedance above 2 ohms (and probably does so just fine). Who's at fault? Thats for you to decide, but this sure doesn't look good on Focal/Orca's behalf if you understand RLC circuits.


Thanks for helping people understand this part that we've been talking about. One of the big parts to remember is how long this speaker set ran for, when it was designed, and what it was designed to be used with. The speaker set was designed from 2005-2007 and released in 2008. Class D amps were not common in full range, high end builds during this time. When I think back to the shops i worked in during the development time, they were mostly class a/b with class d subwoofer counterparts, or BIG class a/b sub amps. The Focal FP and FPS amps for example were class a/b on the multichannel amps. Never in my life would I have sold a class D of the time with a series of speakers like this. The goto amps in this time, for these levels of speakers were class A/B, so output filters were not a concern, as you mentioned. But, as times changed so did the technology. This is why the Bi-Amp modification was done, to help with the influx of Class D amps that were beginning to be of better quality.

The low impedance swing isn't the issue that is being discussed though, it's the pop, and the pop isn't a "known issue" or whatever people have been calling it. It's isolated, to his install. So i'm trying to ask all the questions and make all the suggestion I can to make sure it gets fixed. I want it fixed as bad as he does, but I'm a technician, trying to do my job, and i'm just getting yelled at. (not by you)

The other thing, when referring to the revision paperwork. The right side explanation / warning is how the crossover came from the factory. This is also printed in the OE owners manual that was still included in the box, and also the same for all other countries, as they were not modified. The left portion is the modification we did, to eliminate the low impedance swings during playback. By separating the mid bass circuit, we could eliminate the extreme drop, while still maintaining all the EQing and adjustment that the Focal engineers had built in. On a Class A/B amp, you could run either way, and if you ran into protection circuitry issues, with certain amps, Bi-Amping the crossovers was the fix, so that a customer didn't need to buy new replacement speakers. 

Neibur,

I guess my question would be that if you had gone onto the forums, and had a thread like this, and had all of the information given to you about your vtec solenoid, and the dealer kept saying there is nothing wrong, and you didn't say anything, who's fault would that be? I'm not saying that he should be doing all the troubleshooting and have electrical degrees, i'm just stating that if he is going to be the voice, he should have some answers. If he's going to be here, that communication should be going both ways. I'm asking him questions about his car, and what was tried. I'm sure, with your attention to detail, that you would never just tell a customer "i tried everything, it's not my problem, call the manufacturer." I would also agree about processor and active and make it better. I think rton20s suggested that back in the first couple of pages. He has the amplifier channels already running in this install.

Everyone,

I've been accused of things from talking in legal mumbo jumbo, to denying responsibility, and probably many other things that just haven't been typed out. I'm a tech, through and through. I'm here, on my day off, trying to continue to help someone that continues to blame myself and my employer for an issue with a product that has never been reported before, but yet continues to claim it's out fault. This install was done almost a year ago and was never brought to the attention of myself, or Orca, at any point until this thread. At no point has myself, any guys in my department, our trainer, or our engineer, been contacted about this most recent situation with the exception of this forum, and yet here I am, still trying to help, amongst all the slander and bull associated with this thread. 

I've been here trying to come up with solution after solution after solution to try and make him happy, but until all proper trouble shooting steps are done, there is NO WAY TO KNOW that the crossover design is what is causing the problem. I am speaking here the same why i would to any installer, have you tried this and that? no? cool, see what you find out and let me know. This isn't a simple it doesn't turn on, it's an if/then/when/but situation, and those take time to properly chase down. 

As Mikey said, this is why we have authorized retailers. I am here to help guide them in troubleshooting, but only if they involve me in the conversation and in what they've done. Focal's Product (with Orca Modification) has had no reported issues except your install. Maybe your flailing should be less blame and more asking for legitimate help and information you can pass along to your installer.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Responsibility for what, a problem with a different manufacturers amp?* If his transmission goes out should he blame Focal for that too? *Just because he had a separate problem with the Focal equipment in his system doesn't mean every problem in his system is their fault. Seems to me the person that should be taking responsibility is his installer for his shoddy work.


I know you clearly don't have an understanding of electrical circuits, amplifier design, or even impedance for that matter, so lets further explore your automotive analogy, maybe that will turn on a light bulb.

You buy a new car, that car was designed to run on 87 octane fuel because that is the automotive "standard" for fuels. The car manufacturer does not manufacture the fuel, they rely on other companies to manufacture fuel that will burn properly and not destroy the engine. You fill up the new car at a gas station, the pump says "87 octane" but the fuel is actually 75 octane. You motor begins to detonate and grenades. 

So, you research the problem, and post your experience online. Now you have a bunch of guys on the internet telling you to just start replacing parts, start with the cyclinder heads, then the camshaft, maybe the crank too. But your pissed, why should you foot the bill? You bought a car that was designed to run on 87 octane and you thought you bought 87 octane fuel. Pissing match ensues, people clearly don't understand what happened so their best bet is to start hurling insults online, maybe throw up a classy youtube video or two rather than any useful information. But the problem remains. The fuel manufacturer didn't meet the industry standard for the fuel they sell. Sure that fuel still burns, it might even run in other engines. But it didn't meet the design "standard" the automotive industry designs their engines to. Luckily for us this is regulated by the government so **** like this doesn't happen too often.

The mobile audio world is no different, except it is not regulated by the government. Amplifier manufacturer have to design their amps to a standard, that standard happens to be 2 ohms or greater because you can't design an amplifier power any load conceivable. Amplifiers can't be hooked up to a dead short, if you don't believe me, try it on one of your boat installs.

Focal designed a speaker set that does not fall within the industry accepted impedance tolerance, they even put a warning in the manual. This is a 4 ohm set, but is may dip to .8 ohms. Imagine if a fuel manufacture did that with the fuel above, "our fuel is rated at 87 octanne, but it might be 82 octane, it could be extremely dangerous to your vehicle, use at your own risk". Would you buy it?

K, time for another youtube insult, ball is in your court. You too mikey7182.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

cobb2819 said:


> Thanks for helping people understand this part that we've been talking about. One of the big parts to remember is how long this speaker set ran for, when it was designed, and what it was designed to be used with. The speaker set was designed from 2005-2007 and released in 2008. Class D amps were not common in full range, high end builds during this time. When I think back to the shops i worked in during the development time, they were mostly class a/b with class d subwoofer counterparts, or BIG class a/b sub amps. The Focal FP and FPS amps for example were class a/b on the multichannel amps. Never in my life would I have sold a class D of the time with a series of speakers like this. The goto amps in this time, for these levels of speakers were class A/B, so output filters were not a concern, as you mentioned. But, as times changed so did the technology. This is why the Bi-Amp modification was done, to help with the influx of Class D amps that were beginning to be of better quality.


I appreciate the response and the explanation. I wasn't aware these speakers were so old. However, they still fall outside of the normal 2-4 ohm design window, Nick mentioned that. From what I googled, they are rated at 4 ohms.



cobb2819 said:


> The low impedance swing isn't the issue that is being discussed though, it's the pop, and the pop isn't a "known issue" or whatever people have been calling it. It's isolated, to his install. So i'm trying to ask all the questions and make all the suggestion I can to make sure it gets fixed. I want it fixed as bad as he does, but I'm a technician, trying to do my job, and i'm just getting yelled at. (not by you)


There are two cases of it on this board, you called one of them a bot which I don't think is acceptable. I offered a theory as to why the pop exists (inrush current due to so many inductors).



cobb2819 said:


> The other thing, when referring to the revision paperwork. The right side explanation / warning is how the crossover came from the factory. This is also printed in the OE owners manual that was still included in the box, and also the same for all other countries, as they were not modified. The left portion is the modification we did, to eliminate the low impedance swings during playback. By separating the mid bass circuit, we could eliminate the extreme drop, while still maintaining all the EQing and adjustment that the Focal engineers had built in. On a Class A/B amp, you could run either way, and if you ran into protection circuitry issues, with certain amps, Bi-Amping the crossovers was the fix, so that a customer didn't need to buy new replacement speakers.


I understand exactly why the warning is there and what your engineer was trying to prevent, it makes perfect sense to me. But if you include a warning with the speakers, you have to be willing to accept some responsibility if there are issues.



cobb2819 said:


> Everyone,
> 
> I've been accused of things from talking in legal mumbo jumbo, to denying responsibility, and probably many other things that just haven't been typed out. I'm a tech, through and through. I'm here, on my day off, trying to continue to help someone that continues to blame myself and my employer for an issue with a product that has never been reported before, but yet continues to claim it's out fault. This install was done almost a year ago and was never brought to the attention of myself, or Orca, at any point until this thread. At no point has myself, any guys in my department, our trainer, or our engineer, been contacted about this most recent situation with the exception of this forum, and yet here I am, still trying to help, amongst all the slander and bull associated with this thread.
> 
> ...


Call your dealer, kick him in the ass, and make this go away somehow. Split the cost with them, or some other solution, but this doesn't look good on anyone's part. I honestly believe the problem lies in your speaker set, you eluded to that above. I don't think Arc has any fault in this. Good luck.


----------



## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SQram said:


> The mobile audio world is no different, except it is not regulated by the government. Amplifier manufacturer have to design their amps to a standard, that standard happens to be 2 ohms or greater because you can't design an amplifier power any load conceivable. Amplifiers can't be hooked up to a dead short, if you don't believe me, try it on one of your boat installs.
> 
> Focal designed a speaker set that does not fall within the industry accepted impedance tolerance, they even put a warning in the manual. This is a 4 ohm set, but is may dip to .8ohms. Imagine if a fuel manufacture did that with the fuel above, "our fuel is rated at 87 octance, but it might be 82 octane, it could be extremely dangerous to your vehicle, use at your own risk". Would you buy it?


This isn't just an issue with this set of speakers. There are home audio brands that say they are 8 ohm, but dip to 2, so if you don't use these particular amps, then you're SOL. 

Again, this really isn't the issue that this conversation has been centered around. This is the issue that Orca fixed with this mod, that he is claiming the mod is the cause of his problems. Some here are stating that the cause of his problem is the way the amp is wired, or the amp itself, and he cannot confirm if the possible fixes were tested. 

The flip side of the fuel analogy is "this car requires 91 octane to run properly because we didn't want to sacrifice power and performance for fuel economy, so please keep this in mind and run the appropriate fuel" according to the manual, and "Please use 91 or equivalent", according to the fuel door. You choose to run 87 because you don't exactly know the difference, or did not read the manual or warning sticker in the fuel door.

But again, we have remapped the ECU and timing curve to allow you to run 87, but then maybe your fuel filter is clogged causing an issue?


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

SQram said:


> I know you clearly don't have an understanding of electrical circuits, amplifier design, or even impedance for that matter, so lets further explore your automotive analogy, maybe that will turn on a light bulb.
> 
> You buy a new car, that car was designed to run on 87 octane fuel because that is the automotive "standard" for fuels. The car manufacturer does not manufacture the fuel, they rely on other companies to manufacture fuel that will burn properly and not destroy the engine. You fill up the new car at a gas station, the pump says "87 octane" but the fuel is actually 75 octane. You motor begins to detonate and grenades.
> 
> ...


Did you miss the video I posted or are you just ignoring it because it doesn't fit within your little theory? What about how I was able to get a turn on pop with the same amplifier and a completely different speaker and crossover? What's your theory on that one? How many sets of speakers would you like me to recreate the problem with before you admit it's the amplifier?


----------



## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

cobb2819 said:


> This isn't just an issue with this set of speakers. There are home audio brands that say they are 8 ohm, but dip to 2, so if you don't use these particular amps, then you're SOL.
> 
> Again, this really isn't the issue that this conversation has been centered around. This is the issue that Orca fixed with this mod, that he is claiming is the cause of his problems. Many here are stating that the cause of his problem is the way the amp is wired, and he cannot confirm if the possibles fixes were tested.
> 
> ...


This is wrong, all of it. You missed my point all together. He bought am amplifier capable of running a 4 ohm load. He bought a 4 ohm load speaker set. He didn't buy 91 engine and use 87. He bought a 87 engine and used 87. 

Good luck, I'm out.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

SQram said:


> There are two cases of it on this board, you called one of them a bot which I don't think is acceptable...


Bot or nut, that post is clearly BS.


----------



## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Did you miss the video I posted or are you just ignoring it because it doesn't fit within your little theory? What about how I was able to get a turn on pop with the same amplifier and a completely different speaker and crossover? What's your theory on that one? How many sets of speakers would you like me to recreate the problem with before you admit it's the amplifier?


You havent answered one question I've asked you, you keep answering my questions with different questions. It's like arguing with a barbeque.

I don't rely on youtube video's when I understand electrical theory. 

I'm done, I'm out. Focal/Orca can drag their name through the mud all they want, I don't have a horse in this race.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

Grinder said:


> Bot or nut, that post is clearly BS.


You deleted the most important part of the post, let me throw it back in there for you:



SQram said:


> There are two cases of it on this board, you called one of them a bot which I don't think is acceptable. I offered a theory as to why the pop exists (inrush current due to so many inductors).


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

SQram said:


> You havent answered one question I've asked you, you keep answering my questions with different questions. It's like arguing with a barbeque.
> 
> I don't rely on youtube video's when I understand electrical theory.
> 
> I'm done, I'm out. Focal/Orca can drag their name through the mud all they want, I don't have a horse in this race.


You have a theory, I have a solution. Which one do you think is more important to the customer?


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

SQram said:


> I appreciate the response and the explanation. I wasn't aware these speakers were so old. However, they still fall outside of the normal 2-4 ohm design window, Nick mentioned that. From what I googled, they are rated at 4 ohms.
> 
> There are two cases of it on this board, you called one of them a bot which I don't think is acceptable. I offered a theory as to why the pop exists (inrush current due to so many inductors).
> 
> I understand exactly why the warning is there and what your engineer was trying to prevent, it makes perfect sense to me. But if you include a warning with the speakers, you have to be willing to accept some responsibility if there are issues.


Nominal Impedance is 4 ohm, and they are rated using the same industry standard method used in home, car, and professional. During playback, in certain switch configurations, impedance drops, and there are warning for this. For amps with issues we did provide a solution, the bi-amped passive crossover networks, available to the US market only. This was an Orca decision, not a Focal decision, we wanted to make sure our customers were able to use the amp brands they wanted. We corrected Focal's design to work with a wider variety of amps, when used properly.

As for your "second case of the same issue", take a look that their "posts", this is obviously not someone with a case, this is someone who posted on 12 consecutive posts with the same generic type of "me too" message. If you don't see the same thing I do, and others did, then i'm glad we'll never be on a grand jury together, because I think it would be super entertaining, not mean or insulting in any way, just would be entertaining.

You keep saying "you", but are you referring to Orca, or Focal? Because i think you are combining the two. The warning from Focal is there, as stated by their engineer. The correction and rework from Orca is also there, as stated from our engineer. 

If we look at it this way, maybe you can see where I come from. 

In this case, the customer buys an (insert name here) amp, and a Focal 165KRX3. He runs the OE passive crossover configuration, and encounters an issue. Focal says, sorry, you're SOL because your amp doesn't support our speakers, as it's stated in the manual. We (Orca) went...that's not cool, we need to fix this because some people are (insert name here) dealers. We modify all the crossovers that come through our doors. No more problems, except the dealers that didn't read the instructions that were included in every box shipped from us. That dealer swaps for a 4 channel, problem solved. 

In this case, dealer installed as originally stated, then needed to swap the amp (add) because he's out of channels. Customer provides a 6 channel, uses 4, and now there is a pop. 

You want to keep saying that "we need to accept and acknowledge" or however you want to put it, that Focal designed a no nonsense / doesn't work with everything set of components that may cause a fault in some amplifiers, and we did, by adding the bi-amp mod to almost EVERY KRX3 that was imported to the US. I'm still not sure what you want from us now, considering this set of speakers was also discontinued in January of 2016?!?

According to Focal and Orca, the original layout for these crossovers don't work with all amps, more commonly, entry level and/or some class d full range amp. This is stated in the manual. We (Orca) have designed a passive crossover network that will allow you (consumer / installer) to Bi-Amp the configuration to correct this impedance swing.

Is that what you want? A decade after the case? and almost 3 years after the set was discontinued, and after the Bi-Amp mod had been done on almost every set imported? Well we did that, when we started modifying the crossovers, a LONG time ago.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

SQram said:


> I know you clearly don't have an understanding of electrical circuits, amplifier design, or even impedance for that matter, so lets further explore your automotive analogy, maybe that will turn on a light bulb.
> 
> You buy a new car, that car was designed to run on 87 octane fuel because that is the automotive "standard" for fuels. The car manufacturer does not manufacture the fuel, they rely on other companies to manufacture fuel that will burn properly and not destroy the engine. You fill up the new car at a gas station, the pump says "87 octane" but the fuel is actually 75 octane. You motor begins to detonate and grenades.
> 
> ...


Oh, you're gonna be fine.  I think you've only mentioned in this thread that you're an electrical engineer about 9 times. We get that you design circuits. Maybe just put it in your signature and save yourself the time of typing it out, that way you can be a little more passive-aggressive in how you throw it in people's faces when comparing credentials?  Your input in this thread stood on its own merits, is all I was getting at. You come across as very learned; no need to get defensive about your education or training. 



> This is wrong, all of it. You missed my point all together. He bought am amplifier capable of running a 4 ohm load. He bought a 4 ohm load speaker set. He didn't buy 91 engine and use 87. He bought a 87 engine and used 87.


I also don't know exactly why you and others continue to perseverate over these types of examples. You know (as a circuit designer) that speakers that are rated for a nominal load often dip significantly below that load at certain frequencies, as well as raise significantly above that load at other frequencies, which is all these Focals are doing. The swing is a bit more dramatic, so a fix was put in place to retrofit them to work with newer amplifiers that you yourself pointed out are more particular in functionality. Running at a rated/nominal 4 ohms and very briefly seeing 0.8 ohms are not mutually exclusive. People ought to stop implying that this is somehow a "0.8 ohm component set."

Your analogy of the gas is not accurate, in this regard. It would be more like if he bought a 91 octane rated engine, and ran 91 in it from Circle K, but for some reason this gas was formulated such that when the outside temperature hit a certain degree, it temporarily burned at 85, then jumped back up to 91- and was even advertised to do so right at the pump. Unfortunately, his new ecoBoost- which wasn't around when this gas was originally formulated- couldn't tolerate the temporary dip in octane, and it knocked every time he started the car.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

cobb2819 said:


> Nominal Impedance is 4 ohm, and they are rated using the same industry standard method used in home, car, and professional. During playback, in certain switch configurations, impedance drops, and there are warning for this. For amps with issues we did provide a solution, the bi-amped passive crossover networks, available to the US market only. This was an Orca decision, not a Focal decision, we wanted to make sure our customers were able to use the amp brands they wanted. We corrected Focal's design to work with a wider variety of amps, when used properly.
> 
> As for your "second case of the same issue", take a look that their "posts", this is obviously not someone with a case, this is someone who posted on 12 consecutive posts with the same generic type of "me too" message. If you don't see the same thing I do, and others did, then i'm glad we'll never be on a grand jury together, because I think it would be super entertaining, not mean or insulting in any way, just would be entertaining.
> 
> ...


And you guys contacted the dealer and have been working with the dealer on a solution for this customer?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> And you guys contacted the dealer and have been working with the dealer on a solution for this customer?


No sir, I don’t believe they have even after repeated requests too.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

As far as the 165KRX3 age, one set was purchased in 2016 & the other set was purchased in 2017.

And as stated before my Arc Audio amps were purchased at least a year before I purchased the 165KRX3


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

SQram said:


> You deleted the most important part of the post, let me throw it back in there for you:


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> So i'm trying to ask all the questions and make all the suggestion I can to make sure it gets fixed. I want it fixed as bad as he does, but I'm a technician, trying to do my job, and i'm just getting yelled at. (not by you)
> 
> Everyone,
> 
> ...


I brought this problem to you publicly & privately over a month ago. I then asked Orca for help because I was tired of Focal’s Authorized Dealer saying it was Focal’s passive crossovers causing my problem & Orca wasn’t going to do anything it.

You said that you couldn’t do anything about fixing it without my vehicle being in your dealer’s possession. So I dropped it off for the 4th time & made several public announcements before I did it so you would know.

So I have two simple & direct questions:

1.) How many times has Orca discussed my problem with their Authorized Dealer in Mobile, Al. in the past month?

2.) And after those discussion(s), what test procedures & conclusions did you all try to get my problem fixed?


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## jrgreene1968 (Jul 7, 2008)

It sucks to have a problem like this.. but you have wayyyy more patience then me. I’d have done throwed in the towel and bought new stuff
Guess that’s why I do all my own work.. that way I’m the only person to blame when it don’t work.
I still don’t see why you don’t just TRY a different amp
None of my business though.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jrgreene1968 said:


> It sucks to have a problem like this.. but you have wayyyy more patience then me. I’d have done throwed in the towel and bought new stuff
> 
> I still don’t see why you don’t just TRY a different amp


Oh, I have thought about throwing in the towel and most people would have especially after some of these insulting comments on this thread. But, that is exactly what they would prefer for me to do. So I will stay the course until they make it right.

1.). It is because I have 3 of the same amps in my install & 1 spare amp in my closet. 
2.) I like for all the amps to match. 
3.) I know a Class A/b will get too hot because I don’t have that much clearance between the top of the amps & the back of the 3rd row seats.
4.) I used two of these amps in my prior system & they produced no turn on pop.


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## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> Oh, I have thought about throwing in the towel and most people would have especially after some of these insulting comments on this thread. But, that is exactly what they would prefer for me to do. So I will stay the course until they make it right.
> 
> 1.). It is because I have 3 of the same amps in my install & 1 spare amp in my closet.
> 2.) I like for all the amps to match.
> ...


Yet, you still haven't tried switching amps just to see if it is a speaker or amp issue. All trouble shooting has not been done, but you want to keep insisting you know exactly what part of your system is the issue.


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Does the OP have the Orca modified XO's?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

wizzi001 said:


> Yet, you still haven't tried switching amps just to see if it is a speaker or amp issue. All trouble shooting has not been done, but you want to keep insisting you know exactly what part of your system is the issue.


I am just repeating what Focal’s Authorized Dealer said was causing my turn on pop. I don’t know how they troubleshooted it but, I also have no reason to doubt them either.

That is why I asked Focal-Orca above what they had done and Focal (Orca) also said they would void my warranty if I touched it.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> Does the OP have the Orca modified XO's?


Yes, I believe that I do


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## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I am just repeating what Focal’s Authorized Dealer said was causing my turn on pop. I don’t know how they troubleshooted it but, I also have no reason to doubt them either.
> 
> That is why I asked Focal-Orca above what they had done and Focal (Orca) also said they would void my warranty if I touched it.


Why are you asking Orca/Focal what the dealer did for troubleshooting? You should be communicating with the dealer directly as to what they have done to troubleshoot. Why would you want secondhand information when you can get it directly from the dealer. it's as though you don't want to know the truth and are just hoping orca/Focal will get tired of dealing with you and either give you new replacements or a refund.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

wizzi001 said:


> Why are you asking Orca/Focal what the dealer did for troubleshooting? You should be communicating with the dealer directly as to what they have done to troubleshoot. Why would you want secondhand information when you can get it directly from the dealer. it's as though you don't want to know the truth and are just hoping orca/Focal will get tired of dealing with you and either give you new replacements or a refund.


This is a known issue by Focal and Orca. Both should be contacting the dealer help make sure the issue gets resolved for the customer. Orca is, I assume who supplied the product to the dealer, so IMHO, it should be them. Obviously the dealer isn't able to on their own for whatever reason, but Focal/Orca should be there to help.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Niebur3 said:


> This is a known issue by Focal and Orca.


It's not a known issue, this is the first time they've seen this problem and it still hasn't been definitively proven that the problem is with the Focal equipment and not the amp or install.


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

ca90ss said:


> It's not a known issue, this is the first time they've seen this problem and it still hasn't been definitively proven that the problem is with the Focal equipment and not the amp or install.


But Brawndo's got electrolytes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAqIJZeeXEc


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> I've been accused of things from talking in legal mumbo jumbo, to denying responsibility, and probably many other things that just haven't been typed out. I'm a tech, through and through. *I'm here, on my day off, trying to continue to help someone* that continues to blame myself and my employer for an issue with a product that has never been reported before, but yet continues to claim it's out fault.


Cobb2819 clearly states that he is trying to solve my problem. Even on his off days, if this is the case I appreciate it!

Now I have two very simple & direct questions for Cobb2819 only please:

1.) How many times has Cobb2819 discussed the turn on problem with Focal's Authorized Dealer in Mobile, Al. since I took my vehicle back in for the 4th time?

2.) And after those discussion(s), what test procedures & conclusions did Focal's Network try to get my problem fixed?


----------



## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> This is a known issue by Focal and Orca. Both should be contacting the dealer help make sure the issue gets resolved for the customer. Orca is, I assume who supplied the product to the dealer, so IMHO, it should be them. Obviously the dealer isn't able to on their own for whatever reason, but Focal/Orca should be there to help.


What you state has no bearing on why he doesn't communicate directly with the dealer and why he hasn't asked the dealer if they tried a different type of amp during troubleshooting.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KillerBox said:


> Cobb2819 clearly states that he is trying to solve my problem. Even on his off days, *if this is the case I appreciate it!*


It clearly is the case, and you clearly do not appreciate it.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

wizzi001 said:


> What you state has no bearing on why he doesn't communicate directly with the dealer and why he hasn't asked the dealer if they tried a different type of amp during troubleshooting.


I have communicated with the dealer too much over this past year. 4 different occasions the dealer has said it is Focal's passive crossovers causing my problems.

I don't need a 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th occasion. So at this point, Focal can either step in and do something or others will know my story and that they are unwilling or incapable of doing anything.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Grinder said:


> It clearly is the case, and you clearly do not appreciate it.


Shhh... Cobb is a grown man and I am sure he is more than capable of answering my two little questions.


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KillerBox said:


> Shhh... Cobb is a grown man and I am sure he is more than capable of answering my two little questions.


You know the difference between a statement and a question.


----------



## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

Please stop trolling.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KillerBox said:


> I have communicated with the dealer too much over this past year. 4 different occasions the dealer has said it is Focal's passive crossovers causing my problems.
> 
> I don't need a 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th occasion. So at this point, Focal can either step in and do something or *others will know my story and that they are unwilling or incapable of doing anything*.


People will draw their own conclusions.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Grinder said:


> People will draw their own conclusions.


Good! That is why I wanted to this publicly


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

So back to my two simple questions.



cobb2819 said:


> I've been accused of things from talking in legal mumbo jumbo, to denying responsibility, and probably many other things that just haven't been typed out. I'm a tech, through and through. *I'm here, on my day off, trying to continue to help someone* that continues to blame myself and my employer for an issue with a product that has never been reported before, but yet continues to claim it's out fault.


Cobb2819 clearly states that he is trying to solve my problem. Even on his off days, if this is the case I appreciate it!

Now I have two very simple & direct questions for Cobb2819 only please:

1.) How many times has Cobb2819 discussed the turn on problem with Focal's Authorized Dealer in Mobile, Al. since I took my vehicle back in for the 4th time?

2.) And after those discussion(s), what test procedures & conclusions did Focal's Network try to get my problem fixed?


----------



## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

mikey7182 said:


> Oh, you're gonna be fine.  I think you've only mentioned in this thread that you're an electrical engineer about 9 times. We get that you design circuits. Maybe just put it in your signature and save yourself the time of typing it out, that way you can be a little more passive-aggressive in how you throw it in people's faces when comparing credentials?  Your input in this thread stood on its own merits, is all I was getting at. You come across as very learned; no need to get defensive about your education or training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know what's funny? I'm not an engineer. You didn't take the time to read any of my posts correctly or understand what I was trying to say, much like several others here. You assumed that, and stated I said it 9 times, but I haven't, so please drop the blue ball ball/signature ********. Just like a bunch of people here are assuming what the problem is and pointing fingers. I only offered a theory, and clearly stated it was a theory. I understand amplifiers, speakers etc., that's all.

If I come accross as passive agressive, then I apologize, I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. It's frustrating as hell when you can clearly see where a problem *potentially* lies, but people don't want to listen and would rather put up whitty youtube video's or classy mimes. That's why this forum is what it is today, just a shell of what it once was.

I work on industrial electrical systems (not trying to be egotistical). I do a lot of fault analysis. I currently work/design on a 10 Megawatt system. If I told my boss we were going to find a fault in the system by replacing equipment one piece at a time, I'd likely be shown the door. Granted, the stuff I work on costs far more than car audio equipment but none the less the fault analysis is the same. 

The whole 87/91 octane thing was just an analogy, people can spin it any way they like. I don't buy the whole Focal set is "high performance" as stated from the representative. From an electrical perspective it's a simple copper coil in an overhung magnetic gap, that's 100 year old technology right there. Same for the crossover, there have been no new developments for decades. So if you buy the whole, 91 octane/high performance analogy, then what can I say, that's your opinion. All they have done is design a voice coil/passive arrangement with low inductive reactance (which varies with frequency, thus the 150Hz/.8ohm impedance). It's too low for "some" Class D amplifiers due to the filter required on the outputs.

I said I was out, so I won't offer anymore theory's here. I certainly wont be buying any more Mosconi/Illusion gear in the future if this is how customer service is handed. To be fair, I wouldn't visit the dealer either.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQram said:


> I said I was out, so I won't offer anymore theory's here. I certainly wont be buying any more Mosconi/Illusion gear in the future if this is how customer service is handed. To be fair, I wouldn't visit the dealer either.



Thank you for your open mind and thanks to your post I just learned something new too.

I didn't know that Orca is the only Authorized Distributor in the USA for Focal, Mosconi, Gladen and Illusion


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

SQram said:


> You know what's funny? I'm not an engineer. You didn't take the time to read any of my posts correctly or understand what I was trying to say, much like several others here. You assumed that, and stated I said it 9 times, but I haven't, so please drop the blue ball ball/signature ********. Just like a bunch of people here are assuming what the problem is and pointing fingers. I only offered a theory, and clearly stated it was a theory. I understand amplifiers, speakers etc., that's all.
> 
> If I come accross as passive agressive, then I apologize, I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. It's frustrating as hell when you can clearly see where a problem *potentially* lies, but people don't want to listen and would rather put up whitty youtube video's or classy mimes. That's why this forum is what it is today, just a shell of what it once was.
> 
> ...


The irony is, you didn't read what I wrote, apparently. I read (and understood- to the extent that I can) what you wrote, and agreed with all of it. I think your theory was/is spot-on, and Jacob even gave you accolades for it last month, when from looking at a single diagram image, you came up with that theory and basically nailed it. I think the issue here is the Class D amp and its filtered outputs. What none of us know is whether or not that was tested by TNT by swapping out with different amplifiers. 

I never once said (nor do I subscribe to the idea) that the Focal set is somehow "high performance" and is thus causing an extra load on this amp. I was merely building off your analogy because the issue is more complex than "he bought a 4 ohm system and what he got was a 0.8 ohm component set" which is essentially what the 87/91 translates into. Reading through the posts in the other thread about this set, back from 2009, and reading Jacob's earlier posts in this thread, these types of Class D amps were not really mainstream back when this set was originally designed. It has nothing to do with being "high end" or what not, but the average customer purchasing this set wasn't powering them with a Class D full range amplifier, either. They used A or A/B, which have all been demonstrated not to replicate this issue (along with a number of Class D amps). So for those stating that "this is a known issue" it is NOT. Clearly. There is not some long, documented history of the turn-on pop KB is experiencing; just documentation of the 0.8 ohms @150hz, and lots of guys not having any trouble amplifying said set. I think we both agree on that. 

The reason I busted your balls was (as I stated in my previous post) this whole "wanna compare credentials?" nonsense. I was being hyperbolic with the "9 count" obviously, but you've brought up more than once what your official background is. Your thoughts and expertise stand on their own merit. Don't turn this into some pissing contest by feeling threatened and attempting to see whose job title or education is the most prestigious. And your response is to split hairs over my use of the word "engineer"?  You said you design circuits, right? Or did I read that wrong? I'm trying to think of another word for "design"...  This is why you were hit with Youtube videos and blue ball jokes. Lighten up. And buy some Mosconi gear in the future. It's solid (and so is their customer support network).


----------



## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

mikey7182 said:


> The irony is, you didn't read what I wrote, apparently. I read (and understood- to the extent that I can) what you wrote, and agreed with all of it. I think your theory was/is spot-on, and Jacob even gave you accolades for it last month, when from looking at a single diagram image, you came up with that theory and basically nailed it. I think the issue here is the Class D amp and its filtered outputs. What none of us know is whether or not that was tested by TNT by swapping out with different amplifiers.
> 
> I never once said (nor do I subscribe to the idea) that the Focal set is somehow "high performance" and is thus causing an extra load on this amp. I was merely building off your analogy because the issue is more complex than "he bought a 4 ohm system and what he got was a 0.8 ohm component set" which is essentially what the 87/91 translates into. Reading through the posts in the other thread about this set, back from 2009, and reading Jacob's earlier posts in this thread, these types of Class D amps were not really mainstream back when this set was originally designed. It has nothing to do with being "high end" or what not, but the average customer purchasing this set wasn't powering them with a Class D full range amplifier, either. They used A or A/B, which have all been demonstrated not to replicate this issue (along with a number of Class D amps). So for those stating that "this is a known issue" it is NOT. Clearly. There is not some long, documented history of the turn-on pop KB is experiencing; just documentation of the 0.8 ohms @150hz, and lots of guys not having any trouble amplifying said set. I think we both agree on that.
> 
> The reason I busted your balls was (as I stated in my previous post) this whole "wanna compare credentials?" nonsense. I was being hyperbolic with the "9 count" obviously, but you've brought up more than once what your official background is. Your thoughts and expertise stand on their own merit. Don't turn this into some pissing contest by feeling threatened and attempting to see whose job title or education is the most prestigious. And your response is to split hairs over my use of the word "engineer"?  You said you design circuits, right? Or did I read that wrong? I'm trying to think of another word for "design"...  This is why you were hit with Youtube videos and blue ball jokes. Lighten up. And buy some Mosconi gear in the future. It's solid (and so is their customer support network).


Fair enough. No pissing match required. 

Cobb said the component set was "high performance" and requires a high performance amplifier with his 91 octane analogy, that's salesman speak, not technical support. It rubbed me the wrong way. I can understand if this is an old design from a time when Class D amplifiers were not prevalent, so I guess the question should be asked, why are they still being sold through retailers? That's another can of worms I'm not getting into.

Jtaudio threw out the whole "keyboard technicians for the win" comment, I assume he was aiming that at me because he quoted my post. That's why I threw out the "let's compare credentials". I mentioned I design circuits for a living because lets be honest, most people here do not understand RLC circuit design. If it comes accross as arrogant, my appologies.

ca90ss has posted up lame you tube video insults but has contributed absolutely nothing to the thread (Yes i did watch his amplifier video and it's completely irrelavant if you understand what the problem is). Somehow he's a moderator here? This is why the forum continues to spiral into the dumpster, and quite frankly pisses me off. I've been around since the sounddomain/reccaraudio days and you see it happen in every forum until people just up and leave. Remember werewolf?

So anyways, I apologize if I come across as an arrogant pr**k. I'm pretty much the only guy willing to stick my neck out here for a problem that could be considered partially the responsibility of both sides of this fight. I never once said it was entirely Focal/Orca's fault (and I'm not claiming you insinuated that).

:beerchug:


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

SQram said:


> Fair enough. No pissing match required.
> 
> Cobb said the component set was "high performance" and requires a high performance amplifier with his 91 octane analogy, that's salesman speak, not technical support. It rubbed me the wrong way. I can understand if this is an old design from a time when Class D amplifiers were not prevalent, so I guess the question should be asked, why are they still being sold through retailers? That's another can of worms I'm not getting into.


I can understand that. I think he said the set was discontinued in early 2016, which makes me wonder how KB purchased them authorized?  Were they sitting on the shelf at TNT for 18 months? Does/did TNT carry the full line of Focal products? Were they sourced from somewhere else and are getting lumped in with the rest of his Focal purchase? 



> Jtaudio threw out the whole "keyboard technicians for the win" comment, I assume he was aiming that at me because he quoted my post. That's why I threw out the "let's compare credentials". I mentioned I design circuits for a living because lets be honest, most people here do not understand RLC circuit design. If it comes accross as arrogant, my appologies.


I saw that; I think the comment was directed at everyone posting here in general. I for one have no clue about RLC circuit design. Now brain circuit design, I can get into. I'm a mental health nurse pursuing my Doctorate as a Psych Nurse Practitioner.  



> ca90ss has posted up lame you tube video insults but has contributed absolutely nothing to the thread (Yes i did watch his amplifier video and it's completely irrelavant if you understand what the problem is). Somehow he's a moderator here? This is why the forum continues to spiral into the dumpster, and quite frankly pisses me off. I've been around since the sounddomain/reccaraudio days and you see it happen in every forum until people just up and leave. Remember werewolf?


I remember Werewolf. And Chad. and Bob Ditts. and lots of other guys. Hell, my friend Dave (ClinesSelect) never comes around anymore. He's the entire reason I have run pro audio and horns for the last 9 years. 



> So anyways, I apologize if I come across as an arrogant pr**k. I'm pretty much the only guy willing to stick my neck out here for a problem that could be considered partially the responsibility of both sides of this fight. I never once said it was entirely Focal/Orca's fault (and I'm not claiming you insinuated that).
> 
> :beerchug:


My apologies too, that a well-intentioned ribbing came across as ****ty. Your analysis of the possible problems here ought to be investigated by TNT by having them switch out amps, or bi-amp the mids so there are no empty channels on the amplifier. KB's concern that "this would send the amp into protect because of the 0.8 ohm drop" is precisely why amplifiers have protection built in. It's not going to hurt anything to try.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

SQram said:


> ca90ss has posted up lame you tube video insults but has contributed absolutely nothing to the thread (Yes i did watch his amplifier video and it's completely irrelavant if you understand what the problem is). Somehow he's a moderator here? This is why the forum continues to spiral into the dumpster, and quite frankly pisses me off. I've been around since the sounddomain/reccaraudio days and you see it happen in every forum until people just up and leave. Remember werewolf?


Let’s see, I understand that he has a turn on pop, I understand that I can recreate the problem with the same amp and a different set of speakers. I also understand that I have a solution that allows him to keep the amp and the speakers he loves so much but you’re right, because I lack a complete understanding of every aspect of circuit design my contribution and solution to his problems is completely useless and irrelevant. So, you win, I’m an idiot and you are the Einstein of our time. So, using your theory, what is the solution to his turn on pop?


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

ca90ss said:


> So, using your theory, what is the solution to his turn on pop?


Inquiring minds want to know. I am only on this thread to see what I need to do to strengthen the passive crossovers I have for my lines, so that this sort of thing doesn't happen to me.


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## SQram (Aug 17, 2007)

SQ Audi said:


> Inquiring minds want to know. I am only on this thread to see what I need to do to strengthen the passive crossovers I have for my lines, so that this sort of thing doesn't happen to me.


Another witty comment that deserves a witty reply, so:

That's for Orca/TNT to decide. I don't work in customer service, nor do I have any experience in it, therefore I won't comment. See how that works?

I was strictly offering a "theory" as to why the problem was occuring. Take it for what it's worth.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

So I posted this a few days ago, and you never replied: 



> Best Buy doesn't say "It's your Pioneer HU. You'll have to contact the national distributor for Pioneer and resolve it with them in order to get approval for a replacement." So why is it that TNT is telling you to deal with their distributor, or the manufacturer directly? What is it you're missing here? You see why we're skeptical? Particularly when you seem hell-bent on avoiding providing any details as to the troubleshooting process, let alone the timeframe? When did you originally purchase the speakers? When were they installed? How long after the purchase did you start having issues? How long has this been going on for?


I have my suspicions as to why. You've sort of implied throughout this entire thing that since TNT did your install, and they are a Focal Authorized Dealer, that that's where you sourced all your Focal equipment. But after Jacob said the other day that this series was discontinued in early 2016, it got me wondering about that again. So I'll ask you- the OP- some simple, direct questions:

1) Where did you buy the Focal component set that you think is the source of all your issues?

2) What was the purchase date of these speakers, seeing as how they were discontinued 30 months ago?

3) What was the install date for these speakers?

4) Was your vehicle in for any other issues at TNT, either before, or after they installed the new component set in question?

4) What were the dates your car was in for service at TNT?

5) Has any of the other gear in this install given you issues? If so, what was the outcome? Did TNT or ORCA/Focal replace it?

If I had to guess, you have avoided answering because it would shed light on why this whole thing has been such a problem. My guess is that you did NOT buy the Focals from TNT; you bought them from somewhere else. Since your warranty is allegedly being honored, that would leave either an online retailer (I can only think of one or two) that would have kept them in stock after they were discontinued, or from TNT if they had them sitting on their shelf for awhile after they were discontinued (which is not common at brick n' mortars). 

Assuming you didn't buy them from TNT, this would explain why instead of them simply swapping the set out for a different/comparable set, that you're trying to involve ORCA/Focal. It would also make sense why TNT has allegedly "determined" that the source of the problem is that crossover design, despite there being virtually no other documented case of turn-on pop with this Focal set. This is because TNT would rather take an easy way out and assume the problem lies in a passive crossover that has been modified, because they didn't sell you that set, rather than spend hours chasing down other potential problems. Companies usually aren't reluctant to help a customer, unless that help has been abused. Am I getting warm?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> I can understand that. I think he said the set was discontinued in early 2016, which makes me wonder how KB purchased them authorized?  Were they sitting on the shelf at TNT for 18 months? Does/did TNT carry the full line of Focal products? Were they sourced from somewhere else and are getting lumped in with the rest of his Focal purchase?


All 4 sets of my Focal speakers in my SUV and all 4 spare sets in my closet are still under warranty. One set was purchased in 2016 and the other 7 sets in 2017. The serial numbers have been provided and accepted by Orca.

Like I said before I have 4 spare Focal K2 Speakers sets in my closet, so clearly I am not out to beat Orca out of anything.

I also have spare BNIB MB Quart Q series, Coustic DR series, AudioFrog GB series and more in the same closet.

I purchased my newer stuff like Focal, AudioFrog and Arc Audio amps without ever hearing any of them based on recommendations on forums like this. Because there are not a lot of SQ Hi-End shops in my area. For an example: all 3 different local dealers had no Focal K2s, AudioFrog GBs or Arc Audio amps for me to hear.

The first set of Focal K2 165KRX3 were purchased in 2016 was so that I could inspect their quality before purchasing anymore.

To me this matter is simple, I will pay whatever I have to for premium equipment but, if a problem occurs during the warranty period I expected premium service until the problem is fixed. 

If they don't offer premium service, I would like to be warned and I will avoid companies like that.

So after playing this 3 card monty with Focal's Authorized Network for the past year, the Focal's Authorized Dealer says it is the passive crossovers. Focal's Customer Service says it is anything but, the passive crossovers. Both of them come with some jury rigged solutions on how to fix it. I paid too much money for jury rigged.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> All 4 sets of my Focal speakers in my SUV and all 4 spare sets in my closet are still under warranty. One set was purchased in 2016 and the other 7 sets in 2017. The serial numbers have been provided and accepted by Orca.
> 
> Like I said before I have 4 spare Focal K2 Speakers sets in my closet, so clearly I am not out to beat Orca out of anything.
> 
> ...


You virtually avoided answering any of my questions, except the year you bought the gear. Shocker. So I can assume that you did not buy them from TNT, since they did not stock K2s. Since Focal's service department is so horrible, have you had any other warranty claims with Focal/ORCA with this system, or any Focal gear in general in the past several years? If so, how did that go?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

So that my simple question doesn't get lost in all this mumbo jumbo, I will ask again.



cobb2819 said:


> I've been accused of things from talking in legal mumbo jumbo, to denying responsibility, and probably many other things that just haven't been typed out. I'm a tech, through and through. *I'm here, on my day off, trying to continue to help someone* that continues to blame myself and my employer for an issue with a product that has never been reported before, but yet continues to claim it's out fault.


Cobb2819 clearly states that he is trying to solve my problem. Even on his off days, if this is the case I appreciate it!

Now I have two very simple & direct questions for Cobb2819 only please:

1.) How many times has Cobb2819 discussed the turn on problem with Focal's Authorized Dealer in Mobile, Al. since I took my vehicle back in for the 4th time?

2.) And after those discussion(s), what test procedures & conclusions did Focal's Network try to get my problem fixed?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> So that my simple question doesn't get lost in all this mumbo jumbo, I will ask again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


By mumbo jumbo, do you mean you avoiding answering really simple, direct questions that paint a comprehensive picture of your situation rather than the cherry-picked one you've managed to convey thus far? This is the third time you've copied and pasted this, but why do you expect someone to answer direct questions when you refuse to do the same?  Have you had any other warranty claims with Focal with this system or any others in the past few years? If so, how was it resolved?

You even phrase your questions in a way that leads one to believe that ORCA and TNT have been in contact regarding OTHER ISSUES you've had, as you go out of your way to specify whether they've discussed solutions for your turn-on pop...


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

**waits for KB to undermine his credibility and complaint with an honest response**


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I'm also curious, as long as I'm asking questions you're going to avoid answering...

The link to your build log shows you posted pics (now gone for some reason or not visible to me) in June 2017, and commented on how "awesome it sounds" so I can assume it was done. Included in your gear list in that thread is the KRX3 component set. Your first post about the turn-on pop was in April 2018, reviving that thread from 2009. So was it fine for 10 months and then started popping? What changed? (Was it the addition of the Arc amp?)


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Obviously y'all are some Keyboard raiders and type a lot faster than I do. I have been typing as fast as I can! 



mikey7182 said:


> So I posted this a few days ago, and you never replied:
> 
> I have my suspicions as to why. You've sort of implied throughout this entire thing that since TNT did your install, and they are a Focal Authorized Dealer, that that's where you sourced all your Focal equipment. But after Jacob said the other day that this series was discontinued in early 2016, it got me wondering about that again. So I'll ask you- the OP- some simple, direct questions:
> 
> 1) Where did you buy the Focal component set that you think is the source of all your issues?


Mickey I didn't answer you the other day because I feel like this extra mumbo jumbo is just clouding up the issue. But, I am a 100% open book and I have no reason to hide anything!

So instead of having to retype everything, I will answer this question by an email sent directly to Cobb2819 on May 14, 2018.

The following 8 items are the Focal speakers that I have purchased. As you can tell, I always buy a bunch of spare parts because I keep my stuff forever and I can’t stand when manufactures don’t have replacement parts because they say they are obsolete. 

1.) First set of Focal K2 Power 165 KRX3 Crutchfield Invoice #24058738 Order Date 04/11/2016 installed in my front doors of my SUV by TNT Car Stereo in Mobile, AL. starting in 02/2017 and finishing 06/2017.

2.) Second set of Focal K2 Power 165 KRX3 Crutchfield Invoice # 25269365 Order Date 07/12/2017 – Bought for spares so in my closet.

3.) First set of Focal K2 Power 100KRS Crutchfield Invoice #: 25194224 Order Date 06/14/2017 - Bought for spares so in my closet.

4.) Second set of Focal K2 Power 100KRS Crutchfield Invoice #: 25218178 Order Date 06/23/2017 – Bought for spares so in my closet.

5.) Third set of Focal K2 Power 100KRS Crutchfield Invoice #: 25218178 Order Date 06/23/2017 – Bought for spares so in my closet.

6.) Only set of Focal ES 165K purchased from TNT Car Stereo & installed by TNT Car Stereo in my rear doors of my SUV by TNT Car Stereo in Mobile, AL. starting in 02/2017 and finishing 06/2017.

7.) First set of Focal ES 100K purchased from TNT Car Stereo & installed by TNT Car Stereo as my center channel of my SUV by TNT Car Stereo in Mobile, AL. starting in 02/2017 and finishing 06/2017.

8.) Second set of Focal ES 100K purchased from TNT Car Stereo & installed by TNT Car Stereo behind the 3rd row of my SUV by TNT Car Stereo in Mobile, AL. starting in 02/2017 and finishing 06/2017.

My build thread: Lexus LX 470 (LandCruiser) finally finished!!!

I am not out to cheat anyone and I don't mind paying for quality stuff. I would like for my stuff to work right. Thank you for your help!





mikey7182 said:


> 2) What was the purchase date of these speakers, seeing as how they were discontinued 30 months ago?


See answer above.




mikey7182 said:


> 3) What was the install date for these speakers?


See answer above.



mikey7182 said:


> 4) Was your vehicle in for any other issues at TNT, either before, or after they installed the new component set in question?


All 4 sets of speakers, HO alternator, 2 extra batteries, subwoofers, subwoofer box, DSP, headunit and two of the Arc Audio xDI 1200.6 amps were installed at the same time. The third Arc Audio xDI 1200.6 amp was installed about 1 month after because neither TNT or I knew anything about the low ohm drop on the speakers. My original manual didn't include the bi-amp modification on it.

About 1 month after the third Arc Audio xDI 1200.6 amp, my brand new HO alternator went out a month or so after my install was completed. Then it has been back in 4 times for the turn on pop noise. So my SUV spent the better half of 2017 at Focal's Authorized Dealer.



mikey7182 said:


> 4) What were the dates your car was in for service at TNT?


I have the exact dates written down at work, if you really need them. But, in short my my SUV has spent over 6 months at Focal's Authorized Dealer.




mikey7182 said:


> 5) Has any of the other gear in this install given you issues? If so, what was the outcome? Did TNT or ORCA/Focal replace it?


TNT replaced the alternator with no problem. TNT even replaced one of the 3" midranges from the 165KRX3 set because it got blown when I only had two Arc Audio 1200.6 xDI installed and the low ohm swing was driving the amp into protection mode at high volumes. TNT has never charged me or complained about any of this warranty work.


Now if you want to hear my theory, Focal/ORCA doesn't want to warranty the older series 165KRX3 and TNT is trying to keep me happy and their hands are tied. I have dealt with TNT since around 1990 and probably had 5 or more systems installed there. I had my son's and my father's systems installed there also. 

So for 25+ years, I have never had a problem with TNT until Focal's 165KRX3 turn on pop. And I am afraid after all this turmoil on DIYMA and y'all Focal FanBoy detectives, that it has probably hurt my relationship with them. But, I know that I am right on this situation and I am 100% dedicated to seeing it though (even if it takes years)! 

P.S.: TNT is actually told me to buy the 165KRX3 from Crutchfield because Focal gave Crutchfield some type of special deal and they were being sold for cheaper than TNT could even buy them for.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

So back to my two simple questions.



cobb2819 said:


> I've been accused of things from talking in legal mumbo jumbo, to denying responsibility, and probably many other things that just haven't been typed out. I'm a tech, through and through. *I'm here, on my day off, trying to continue to help someone* that continues to blame myself and my employer for an issue with a product that has never been reported before, but yet continues to claim it's out fault.


Cobb2819 clearly states that he is trying to solve my problem. Even on his off days, if this is the case I appreciate it!

Now I have two very simple & direct questions for Cobb2819 only please:

1.) How many times has Cobb2819 discussed the turn on problem with Focal's Authorized Dealer in Mobile, Al. since I took my vehicle back in for the 4th time?

2.) And after those discussion(s), what test procedures & conclusions did Focal's Network try to get my problem fixed?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> 1.) How many times has Cobb2819 discussed the turn on problem with Focal's Authorized Dealer in Mobile, Al. since I took my vehicle back in for the 4th time?
> 
> 2.) And after those discussion(s), what test procedures & conclusions did Focal's Network try to get my problem fixed?


These are questions you should be directing to your installer (I don't know that we can call him your dealer) on the multiple occasions you have been dealing with him directly. If you have, and he has provided you with answers, none of that has been conveyed in this thread. Very little of what has taken place at your dealer or even with your vehicle has actually been shared. 



KillerBox said:


> Both of them come with some jury rigged solutions on how to fix it.


Pretty much every suggestion I have seen from Orca, other installers and DIYers have been far from "jury-rigging." They just don't comply with _your preferences_ for the system configuration. There is a big difference between jury-rigging and not meeting a preference. 

Until you (or your installer) at least take the minimal effort to do the following, I don't know why anyone would pay you any attention. 


Bridge 4 channels of your XDI 1200.6 to your mids.
Reset your gains.
Re-run the MS8 setup.

From much of the information that has been shared here, there is a high potential that keeping the system bi-amped and using all of the channels of your Arc amp will both eliminate the low impedance condition AND the pop.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> These are questions you should be directing to your installer (I don't know that we can call him your dealer) on the multiple occasions you have been dealing with him directly. If you have, and he has provided you with answers, none of that has been conveyed in this thread. Very little of what has taken place at your dealer or even with your vehicle has actually been shared. We can't even get straight answers as to where you source your product.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input but, Orca has said if I touch the system then they have a reason to void my warranty.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

So now the ball is in Cobb's court for simple answers.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

The reason people are riding you for information is because despite you saying "I have nothing to hide" you continue to get squeezed for details repeatedly, and continue perseverating over the same "I don't care how it's fixed as long as it is" then you get all flustered when you finally provide answers to the questions people have asked repeatedly. So just to confirm- *none of the other Focal drivers in your install have ever been warrantied? Just that single 3"? None of the amps or subs either? *The reason I keep driving this home, is because it sounds like you've had numerous issues with this install. The alternator, a blown 3" mid right after install, etc. So if, for example, you had blown a sub, or also blown another Focal component (maybe even several), and those had been warrantied without questions asked, and here you are a year later trying to make yet another warranty claim, I could see how TNT or ORCA- having eaten significant costs at this point- would be reluctant to help you further, because there is only so much gear that can fail before it is not the fault of the gear.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> Thank you for your input but, Orca has said if I touch the system then they have a reason to void my warranty.


Yes, he did. As would any tech in their right mind. Why would he state anything on a public forum that was contrary to company policy?!

Support | Focal America

So, you have some choices to make. 

Sit on your hands, continue to complain on this forum and FB (even on unrelated posts) and hope a car audio fairy comes along to fix your install.
Take the car back to your dealer again, and press him to make sure he is in contact with Focal and has an action plan prior to delivery.
Take the risk and DIY.

I know where I would place my bet.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> So back to my two simple questions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1&2) Simple answer with no "mumbo jumbo", never. Neither I, nor anyone else have been in contact with the shop, at all. Now, let that sink in for a moment...

When your vehicle was there, I was unavailable and had no idea is was there. They didn't call us saying hey...this truck is here, help. They told you they spoke with us, and there is nothing they could do, how is that possible? Now that i'm back in the office, it's on my list of things to get done. There were plenty of people available to help while I was unavailable, but none of them were contacted either.

And just to show in this one particular case, that we are trying to help, if you modify your install, I'll keep you product warranty intact, the warranty against manufacturing defect, not burned or damaged products. 

So feel free. Now, I cannot speak on behalf of the retailer, your warranty with their labor might be gone, which has nothing to do with us, but i'll continue to protect your product against manufacturing defect. There are enough people here that i'm sure will help walk you through the specifics of your amp and the wiring to try and knock a couple of things off the check list, even if the dealer told you they already did it.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> The reason people are riding you for information is because despite you saying "I have nothing to hide" you continue to get squeezed for details repeatedly, and continue perseverating over the same "I don't care how it's fixed as long as it is" then you get all flustered when you finally provide answers to the questions people have asked repeatedly. So just to confirm- *none of the other Focal drivers in your install have ever been warrantied? Just that single 3"? None of the amps or subs either? *The reason I keep driving this home, is because it sounds like you've had numerous issues with this install. The alternator, a blown 3" mid right after install, etc. So if, for example, you had blown a sub, or also blown another Focal component (maybe even several), and those had been warrantied without questions asked, and here you are a year later trying to make yet another warranty claim, I could see how TNT or ORCA- having eaten significant costs at this point- would be reluctant to help you further, because there is only so much gear that can fail before it is not the fault of the gear.


The only other thing that I can recall is one of my AudioFrog GB10D2 subs ohm level slide switches was moving at high volume. Andy offered to send me one sight unseen but, I told him that I fixed it myself with a dab of glue & there was no reason to send a new one.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> perseverating


We get it. You're working on your Doctorate in Clinical Psychology.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Yes, he did. As would any tech in their right mind. Why would he state anything on a public forum that was contrary to company policy?!
> 
> Support | Focal America
> 
> ...



How many times am I supposed to go without my SUV & hear the same answers!


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

rton20s said:


> We get it. You're working on your Doctorate in Clinical Psychology.


With a minor in circuit design


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> 1&2) Simple answer with no "mumbo jumbo", never. Neither I, nor anyone else have been in contact with the shop, at all. Now, let that sink in for a moment...
> 
> When your vehicle was there, I was unavailable and had no idea is was there. They didn't call us saying hey...this truck is here, help. They told you they spoke with us, and there is nothing they could do, how is that possible? Now that i'm back in the office, it's on my list of things to get done. There were plenty of people available to help while I was unavailable, but none of them were contacted either.


I am calling BS on at least part of this story because they said that Orca wanted them to send video of the popping.

Other than that now it is time for Orca to either do something because y’all only have one more shot at it!


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> 1&2) Simple answer with no "mumbo jumbo", never. Neither I, nor anyone else have been in contact with the shop, at all. Now, let that sink in for a moment...
> 
> When your vehicle was there, I was unavailable and had no idea is was there. They didn't call us saying hey...this truck is here, help. They told you they spoke with us, and there is nothing they could do, how is that possible? Now that i'm back in the office, it's on my list of things to get done. There were plenty of people available to help while I was unavailable, but none of them were contacted either.














mikey7182 said:


> With a minor in circuit design


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


>


I don’t see where this post is adding anything other than some more mumbo jumbo so please troll somewhere else


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> I am calling BS on at least part of this story because they said that Orca wanted them to send video of the popping.
> 
> Other than that now it is time for Orca to either do something because y’all only have one more shot at it!


That’s funny, considering JT said he’d love to see a video of that at the beginning of this thread and your response was “so would I! Just as soon as ORCA tells TNT what to do!” ? 

So did TNT take a video and send it to ORCA?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> That’s funny, considering JT said he’d love to see a video of that at the beginning of this thread and your response was “so would I! Just as soon as ORCA tells TNT what to do!” ?
> 
> So did TNT take a video and send it to ORCA?


I assume they did but, I don’t know. I have never seen the video though.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

P.S. I love how y’all let Cobb get away with, he wasn’t in the office & didn’t know about my SUV going back in for the 4th time. It was clearly posted here at least 5 times for at least a week or more!


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I am calling BS on at least part of this story because they said that Orca wanted them to send video of the popping.
> 
> Other than that now it is time for Orca to either do something because y’all only have one more shot at it!


Well then i'll be a monkey's uncle, because I asked everyone that would have received that call if they spoke with the shop regarding the issue, and they all said no. So I guess I'm lying, again. 

I'm done. I get told i'm not doing enough, now i'm lying about doing nothing in the time frame mentioned.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> P.S. I love how y’all let Cobb get away with, he wasn’t in the office & didn’t know about my SUV going back in for the 4th time. It was clearly posted here at least 5 times for at least a week or more!


Vacation


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> Well then i'll be a monkey's uncle, because I asked everyone that would have received that call if they spoke with the shop regarding the issue, and they all said no. So I guess I'm lying, again.
> 
> I'm done. I get told i'm not doing enough, now i'm lying about doing nothing in the time frame mentioned.


You are done because you know that I am right & it will cost Orca some money to fix this problem. I think I said that over a month ago too!


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> 1&2) Simple answer with no "mumbo jumbo", never. Neither I, nor anyone else have been in contact with the shop, at all. Now, let that sink in for a moment...


And if I am not mistaken, didn’t you elude the other day that multiple people had been trying to figure out my problem? 

And now you are saying during all this brainstorming that not one of y’all called y’alls dealer to ask them anything?


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## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

first off Cobb is one of the most awesome people on this board. You wont find anyone here who is more willing to help you than him...so don't **** that up.

second...its time to close this thread to the public, after 11k plus views...and over a thousand, nothing more to add is there?

JMO.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> And if I am not mistaken, didn’t you elude the other day that multiple people had been trying to figure out my problem?
> 
> And now you are saying during all this brainstorming that not one of y’all called y’alls dealer to ask them anything?


Prior to the time frame in question, I didn't elude to anything, I flat out told you. In the timeframe in question, no, other then my reply 3 days ago, which is the first we had talked about it since I left for vacation. Our engineer and I talked at length about this on that Friday, and we are both still under the impression its the amp. 

I have a real question. At any point have you talked to Arc about this? Or is it solely because a dealer told you that it's our fault, that it cannot possibly be anything else? I'm not trying to get out of anything, I'm still honestly trying to figure out the troubleshooting steps.

You mention that I'm worried this will cost money. IF its out problem, we'll fix it, but there has been no documented proof that says it is our problem, and there has been no contact to the tech support department from the retailer giving us any reason to thing that there is. Myself, our engineer, our trainer, several car audio techs, and several DIY members all believe the same thing, amp issue. You say it can only possibly be one thing, the passive part of the system, so...get we all get to work now and try and actually solve this problem with all of the information found in the 19 pages of this thread?


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

cobb2819 said:


> Prior to the time frame in question, I didn't elude to anything, I flat out told you. In the timeframe in question, no, other then my reply 3 days ago, which is the first we had talked about it since I left for vacation. Our engineer and I talked at length about this on that Friday, and we are both still under the impression its the amp.
> 
> I have a real question. At any point have you talked to Arc about this? Or is it solely because a dealer told you that it's our fault, that it cannot possibly be anything else? I'm not trying to get out of anything, I'm still honestly trying to figure out the troubleshooting steps.
> 
> You mention that I'm worried this will cost money. IF its out problem, we'll fix it, but there has been no documented proof that says it is our problem, and there has been no contact to the tech support department from the retailer giving us any reason to thing that there is. Myself, our engineer, our trainer, several car audio techs, and several DIY members all believe the same thing, amp issue. You say it can only possibly be one thing, the passive part of the system, so...get we all get to work now and try and actually solve this problem with all of the information found in the 19 pages of this thread?


I did ask Arc & I provided the information to TNT. Afterwards, TNT determined that the problem was with Focal’s passive crossovers. But, I provide it here too:

Have you found the source of the pop? The XDi amplifiers pop protection is imbedded in the Infineon IC we use in the outputs. 

Have you tried pulling the inputs off the amps before turn-on? That’s the next test. 

The XDi amplifier all use a balanced input that is pretty immune to noise but it still requires a ground reference with the source. The source in this case starts at the Kenwood head unit. The output shield of the RCA in this case is signal ground but I’m pretty sure the MS8 has a balanced input. This breaks that connection so no signal ground for the MS8 other than the power ground. The same thing happens between the MS8 and the 1200.6s. 

It looks like you have 1 big ground that ties to all 3 amps before working its way back to the body. Probably 6 feet. Hopefully the MS8 is grounded to the same location. You may need to tie all your grounds into this point. I’m not sure how much panel bonding they used on that car.

Relays are noisy too and really not necessary in this case. The XDi amps take last them 1mA to turn on. The MS8 should be able to turn on 100+ XDi amps. 

So, pull the RCAs and left me know what happens. 

Regards, 

Brad Ott
ARC Audio
Technical Support
209-543-8706


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> first off Cobb is one of the most awesome people on this board. You wont find anyone here who is more willing to help you than him...so don't **** that up.


I don’t want to get Cobb mad. I just want my system fixed!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> P.S. I love how y’all let Cobb get away with, he wasn’t in the office & didn’t know about my SUV going back in for the 4th time. It was clearly posted here at least 5 times for at least a week or more!


He was out of the office, on vacation, picking up the Passat I built that he bought from Dan.  You are out of your element, dude. He is immensely helpful on this board. You’ve been a whiny child for 19 pages, ignoring everyone’s suggestions including his. Man up, make an appointment with your shop to try an Arc XDi600.4 (which you should have done in the first place), or some other amp, and rule out everything but the component set, or swap them out with your spare passives. Or bridge your 1200! Then, if it’s been determined definitively that it is the passives, I can venture to guess that ORCA (and Jacob) will take care of you to make sure you are happy. Probably even if you keep calling him a liar! Because I’d be willing to put money on that this has cost both ORCA and TNT more money than you’re letting on. And based on the way you’re presenting yourself here, and the problems you’ve admitted to having, I’m guessing we still don’t have the full story.


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Cobb said you could do some things mentioned here and he would still warranty the speakers. As this drags on with out you willing to do much except complain, I'm feeling like it is yourself and your dealer and not ORCA that is failing you. 

Who did your dealer say he spoke to at ORCA?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> He was out of the office, on vacation, picking up the Passat I built that he bought from Dan.  You are out of your element, dude. He is immensely helpful on this board. You’ve been a whiny child for 19 pages, ignoring everyone’s suggestions including his. Man up, make an appointment with your shop to try an Arc XDi600.4 (which you should have done in the first place), or some other amp, and rule out everything but the component set, or swap them out with your spare passives. Or bridge your 1200! Then, if it’s been determined definitively that it is the passives, I can venture to guess that ORCA (and Jacob) will take care of you to make sure you are happy. Probably even if you keep calling him a liar! Because I’d be willing to put money on that this has cost both ORCA and TNT more money than you’re letting on. And based on the way you’re presenting yourself here, and the problems you’ve admitted to having, I’m guessing we still don’t have the full story.


Y’all have the full story but, I didn’t know that I had to give my life story just to get Focal fix their system.

P.S. I will be as whiny as I want to be, thank you very much.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Cobb said you could do some things mentioned here and he would still warranty the speakers. As this drags on with out you willing to do much except complain, I'm feeling like it is yourself and your dealer and not ORCA that is failing you.
> 
> Who did your dealer say he spoke to at ORCA?


I don’t know who they spoke too.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> I don’t know who they spoke too.


Ask them....get a name. Takes 2 seconds and then let Cobb know. 

Or maybe they aren't telling you the full truth. Just because things have always been good in the past, doesn't make them a good dealer. You find out more about someone when there is an issue than when everything goes right....keep that in mind.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Ask them....get a name. Takes 2 seconds and then let Cobb know.
> 
> Or maybe they aren't telling you the full truth. Just because things have always been good in the past, doesn't make them a good dealer. You find out more about someone when there is an issue than when everything goes right....keep that in mind.


If Cobb needs to know then he can ask them. Focal/Orca can either step up to the plate or not because at this point I am tired of all the burden of proof being on me.


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## jrgreene1968 (Jul 7, 2008)

KB.. Cobb offered to keep warranty intact, so you could test the amps etc. what else do you want.. for Cobb to jump a plane and come do it?
Some people can’t be satisfied , and I’m beginning to think your one of them kind of people. All this back and forth, he said she said etc, hasn’t solved 1 thing, and you seem to have your mind made up beyond a shadow of a doubt that it’s the focals..when there’s a 50/50 chance it’s the amps, or something entirely different. 
I think you may have to much faith in your installer
Cobb, you have thicker skin than me, cause I’d have done went ballistic!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I don’t see where this post is adding anything other than some more mumbo jumbo so please troll somewhere else


"P.S. I will be as trolly as I want to be, thank you very much."


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

SQram said:


> Another witty comment that deserves a witty reply, so:
> 
> That's for Orca/TNT to decide. I don't work in customer service, nor do I have any experience in it, therefore I won't comment. See how that works?
> 
> I was strictly offering a "theory" as to why the problem was occuring. Take it for what it's worth.


So just to be clear, my solution is irrelevant because you have a theory but you're unable to provide a solution using this special theory and I'm the one who's contributed nothing here. Makes complete sense.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> If Cobb needs to know then he can ask them. Focal/Orca can either step up to the plate or not because at this point I am tired of all the burden of proof being on me.


Seriously???? 

Cobb said your dealer didn't call. Your dealer said they did. Asking the dealer who they talked to is a valid question. Lift a finger to help your cause or you will lose any/all support you have here. 

I'm personally starting to wonder if your vagina is getting sore from all that bitching.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

If Orca is still willing to help even after you've called them liars they're more than welcome to borrow a 1200.6 or two from me if they'd like.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jrgreene1968 said:


> KB.. Cobb offered to keep warranty intact, so you could test the amps etc. what else do you want.. for Cobb to jump a plane and come do it?
> Some people can’t be satisfied , and I’m beginning to think your one of them kind of people. All this back and forth, he said she said etc, hasn’t solved 1 thing, and you seem to have your mind made up beyond a shadow of a doubt that it’s the focals..when there’s a 50/50 chance it’s the amps, or something entirely different.
> I think you may have to much faith in your installer
> Cobb, you have thicker skin than me, cause I’d have done went ballistic!


What did he say because I must have missed it. I am trying to answer all these questions from everyone on a iPhone


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> If Orca is still willing to help even after you've called them liars they're more than welcome to borrow a 1200.6 or two from me if they'd like.


I provided TNT with an extra BNIB 1200.6 & 165KRX3 the last time I took my SUV in


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> What did he say because I must have missed it. I am trying to answer all these questions from everyone on a iPhone


Right here...



cobb2819 said:


> 1&2) Simple answer with no "mumbo jumbo", never. Neither I, nor anyone else have been in contact with the shop, at all. Now, let that sink in for a moment...
> 
> When your vehicle was there, I was unavailable and had no idea is was there. They didn't call us saying hey...this truck is here, help. They told you they spoke with us, and there is nothing they could do, how is that possible? Now that i'm back in the office, it's on my list of things to get done. There were plenty of people available to help while I was unavailable, but none of them were contacted either.
> 
> ...


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> If Orca is still willing to help even after you've called them liars they're more than welcome to borrow a 1200.6 or two from me if they'd like.


I provided TNT with a BNIB 1200.6 & 165KRX3 the last time I took my SUV in. As far as my comment, I probably could have worded it better but, I still have a hard time believing they didn’t know.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> If Cobb needs to know then he can ask them. Focal/Orca can either step up to the plate or not because at this point I am tired of all the burden of proof being on me.


The burden of proof IS on you! This is mind blowing, seriously. You are the one making the claims! You come in here claiming there’s a turn-on pop in your components. You’re claiming further that TNT did the troubleshooting and determined it was the passives. You’re claiming that TNT says they called ORCA and talked to someone who requested a video of the issue. 

1) You have posted no video showing turn-on pop. After 20 pages. It takes 10 seconds to make and post a video. No proof that you even have a problem, let alone what it is. Just that it exists and that TNT says it’s Focal’s fault.

2) We have nobody from TNT conforming that there is a problem, or what they did to troubleshoot. Or that they actually called ORCA to figure it out! 

3) ORCA IS here, saying nobody from TNT has ever contacted them about this. 

You roll in here, saying ORCA and Focal are dodging an issue and providing you with poor service. As far as we know, they’re the only ones providing anything, including potential solutions. All we have beyond that are your claims. Who else would the burden of proof be on?! ?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Seriously????
> 
> Cobb said your dealer didn't call. Your dealer said they did. Asking the dealer who they talked to is a valid question. Lift a finger to help your cause or you will lose any/all support you have here.
> 
> I'm personally starting to wonder if your vagina is getting sore from all that bitching.


So y’all can call me whatever you like but, I can’t call Orca out? I see how it works here.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> The burden of proof IS on you! This is mind blowing, seriously. You are the one making the claims! You come in here claiming there’s a turn-on pop in your components. You’re claiming further that TNT did the troubleshooting and determined it was the passives. You’re claiming that TNT says they called ORCA and talked to someone who requested a video of the issue.
> 
> 1) You have posted no video showing turn-on pop. After 20 pages. It takes 10 seconds to make and post a video. No proof that you even have a problem, let alone what it is. Just that it exists and that TNT says it’s Focal’s fault.
> 
> ...


Orca can get whatever they need from their dealer.


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## jrgreene1968 (Jul 7, 2008)

Lol.. your to much man!!
Are you sure you ain’t a young rich kid?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> I provided TNT with a BNIB 1200.6 & 165KRX3 the last time I took my SUV in. As far as my comment, I probably could have worded it better but, I still have a hard time believing they didn’t know.


So far there's no evidence that TNT did anything other than keep your car for a few days so they could make it look like they tried.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I also bought 9 sets of Focal components from TNT. They installed them last week in my SmartCar because I asked for the “surround sound special.” I just got back to AZ after the 3,500 mile round trip. Now they’re all blown and it’s Focal’s fault cuz I said TNT said so. TNT also called ORCA and you should believe me cuz I can repeat myself better than Rainman at a carnival. Fix it, ORCA!!

My orders: Invoice #234678 on 6/15/18 from TNT Car Audio


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> So far there's no evidence that TNT did anything other than keep your car for a few days so they could make it look like they tried.


If that is the case, then in my opinion Focal/Orca should think removing them as Focal Authorized Dealer because they sure aren’t helping Focal’s corporate image.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> I also bought 9 sets of Focal components from TNT. They installed them last week in my SmartCar because I asked for the “surround sound special.” I just got back to AZ after the 3,500 mile round trip. Now they’re all blown and it’s Focal’s fault. TNT said they called ORCA and you should believe me cuz I can repeat myself better than Rainman at a carnival. Fix it, ORCA!!


Good for you Troll


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> So y’all can call me whatever you like but, I can’t call Orca out? I see how it works here.


You have and you did......but a some point sanity comes into play and you need to work toward a solution, not just hide behind a keyboard and *****. 

All I asked was who your dealer talked with and you can't answer and are unwilling to find out, something that should be VERY easy to find out. You let Cobb know and that is that. He busts some asses and treats you like the King you wanted to be treated like.

But in all honestly, your dealer hasn't done **** to try and fix this. They haven't called ORCA or tried simple troubleshooting.....and for whatever reason, you don't want to admit this to this forum or yourself. Maybe they are friends of yours or something. I would think YOU would want to know who they spoke with. But you don't, because you know they didn't. 

You seem to be trying to protect them and you are making them look like the worst installer, maybe in the USA. Maybe they would like to know what is being said here. Any of us could make that simple courtesy call.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jrgreene1968 said:


> Lol.. your to much man!!
> Are you sure you ain’t a young rich kid?


Thank you very much. Now go troll somewhere else


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> You have and you did......but a some point sanity comes into play and you need to work toward a solution, not just hide behind a keyboard and *****.
> 
> All I asked was who your dealer talked with and you can't answer and are unwilling to find out, something that should be VERY easy to find out. You let Cobb know and that is that. He busts some asses and treats you like the King you wanted to be treated like.
> 
> ...


If they are the worse installer, then in my opinion that is still a Focal/Orca problem because they Authorized them.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> Good for you Troll


You quoted before I edited in my valuable invoice info! Who’s fast on the keyboard now?? 

Truth be told, you are bringing all of this upon yourself. You even have an offer from Jacob to honor your manufacturers defect warranty if you swap out parts yourself. How do you type so fast with your fingers in your ears though?


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> If they are the worse installer, then in my opinion that is still a Focal/Orca problem because they Authorized them.


So did Arc, you dunce!


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## jrgreene1968 (Jul 7, 2008)

Ok, how about this. Since you have a dozen new sets of comps in your closet, and your hellbound convinced the focals installed are bad. Stick one of your other sets in your vehicle and send the suspected bad ones to focal, and let them test them. Or that won’t due either?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> You quoted before I edited in my valuable invoice info! Who’s fast on the keyboard now??
> 
> Truth be told, you are bringing all of this upon yourself. You even have an offer from Jacob to honor your manufacturers defect warranty if you swap out parts yourself. How do you type so fast with your fingers in your ears though?


I am off for tonight. I will answer any legitimate questions in the morning.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> I am off for tonight. I will answer any legitimate questions in the morning.


I think instead of fielding questions, you should just spend that time taking videos of your turn-on pop, then videos of you swapping out the crossovers or bridging your amp and the problem going away. Post them all here so we know you got the problem resolved on your own, and then ORCA can reevaluate TNT’s dealer status. ?


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> I think instead of fielding questions, you should just spend that time taking videos of your turn-on pop, then videos of you swapping out the crossovers or bridging your amp and the problem going away. Post them all here so we know you got the problem resolved on your own, and then ORCA can reevaluate TNT’s dealer status. ?


Ideally I would prefer for Focal’s Network to fix it but, I will try. Hopefully I will have some time Saturday or Sunday. So y’all don’t get your panties in a wad if I don’t know anything until then.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

mikey7182 said:


> or bridging your amp and the problem going away.


That will only partially work but so far I'm up to 3 solutions and one that may work but he would have to try it to be sure.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> That will only partially work but so far I'm up to 3 solutions and one that may work but he would have to try it to be sure.


The entire purpose of this forum. ^^^


----------



## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

jrgreene1968 said:


> Lol.. your to much man!!
> Are you sure you ain’t a young rich kid?


it is spelled too,


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> it is spelled too,


And it's you're, not your.


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

ca90ss said:


> And it's you're, not your.


While we're at it, it's allude to, not elude to.


----------



## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

ca90ss said:


> And it's you're, not your.


hahahaahahahaahahha,damnit


----------



## el_bob-o (Nov 8, 2008)

What did Crutchfield have to say when you brought up the issues with the speakers you purchased from them? I only ask because Crutchfield is known for their excellent customer support.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

el_bob-o said:


> What did Crutchfield have to say when you brought up the issues with the speakers you purchased from them? I only ask because Crutchfield is known for their excellent customer support.


Crutchfield told me to send them back & they would send me a full refund. I am have been tempted to do it & put in some less finky speakers.


----------



## el_bob-o (Nov 8, 2008)

That's great that they make it relatively easy to exchange speakers. If nothing else satisfactory happens in this situation at least you made the decision to buy from one of the best retailers out there as far as being easy to work with.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> That will only partially work but so far I'm up to 3 solutions and one that may work but he would have to try it to be sure.


Please give me a list of all your solutions so that I can easily have them on hand when I attempt to fix this problem.


----------



## billw (Jun 30, 2008)

Seriously?? Take the refund, buy something else, and move on. Life's too short.



KillerBox said:


> Crutchfield told me to send them back & they would send me a full refund. I am have been tempted to do it & put in some less finky speakers.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> Truth be told, you are bringing all of this upon yourself. You even have an offer from Jacob to honor your manufacturers defect warranty if you swap out parts yourself.


Also who is Jacob?


----------



## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> Also who is Jacob?


Cobb.


----------



## Hammer1 (Jan 30, 2011)

After reading all of this, I think the title of this thread should be changed to TNTs poor customer support.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

billw said:


> Seriously?? Take the refund, buy something else, and move on. Life's too short.


I agree and if it was only one set of speakers installed, *they would be sent back especially after yesterday insults. *


*One other thing, if this is the best that Orca's Authorized Network can do is a customer is finding his own problem, I will never buy a Focal, Mosconi, Gladen and Illusion product.* And before anyone gets upset about that statement, it is not because I am mad at Cobb. I understand that Cobb is probably just doing his job in the guidelines that Orca gave him.


It is strictly because I paid *premium money* for a *premium product* to be installed by a *premium authorized dealer* because I don't have the time or knowledge to do it. *I just want a good sounding stereo for a stress reliever and if anything, dealing with Focal's Network has been anything but that.*


----------



## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

Hammer1 said:


> After reading all of this, I think the title of this thread should be changed to TNTs poor customer support.


I disagree. It should be changed to someone bought a lot of equipment, used the manufacturer's authorized dealer to install it, had problems, and got trolled for it.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> Crutchfield told me to send them back & they would send me a full refund. I am have been tempted to do it & put in some less finky speakers.


Do it and ****ing end this fiasco already

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

KillerBox said:


> I agree and if it was only one set of speakers installed, *they would be sent back especially after yesterday insults. *
> 
> 
> *One other thing, if this is the best that Orca's Authorized Network can do is a customer is finding his own problem, I will never buy a Focal, Mosconi, Gladen and Illusion product.* And before anyone gets upset about that statement, it is not because I am mad at Cobb. I understand that Cobb is probably just doing his job in the guidelines that Orca gave him.
> ...


I suggest you just do the return and move on. This thread has turned into a platform for trolling attacks. You've been very reasonable but this is the Internet, where reason is often lacking. Staying on will just open you to more and more attacks. Life's too short.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> I agree and if it was only one set of speakers installed, *they would be sent back especially after yesterday insults. *
> 
> 
> *One other thing, if this is the best that Orca's Authorized Network can do is a customer is finding his own problem, I will never buy a Focal, Mosconi, Gladen and Illusion product.* And before anyone gets upset about that statement, it is not because I am mad at Cobb. I understand that Cobb is probably just doing his job in the guidelines that Orca gave him.
> ...


Premium money? You got the KRXs at a close-out discount from Crutchfield man. You even said TNT told you to buy them because they had them for cheaper than you could get them. And still, when you toasted a 3”, TNT (Focal’s network- meaning approved by and sent from ORCA) replaced it. And this entire time you’ve been camping on the fact that Crutchfield- also part of this authorized network- has offered you a full refund?? Which you could then take the money, “pay your difference” as you’ve said, and get a new component set from TNT? Also meanwhile, ORCA is here offering technical and customer support to you in this thread, and you’re upset because you couldn’t force them to call your dealer when you haven’t provided any evidence that a problem even exists? ??*♂ 

On top of all this, I know why TNT only exchanged the Arc amps for more 1200.6... because they are not Arc dealers, so naturally they didn’t have any 600.4 in stock. 

Essentially, you pieced together a stereo from the internet, took it to a shop you’ve used forever, ordered a few Focal sets from them, and now you’re upset because you’re having problems, and haven’t wanted to touch any of it yourself for fear of voiding warranties. Send them back to Crutchfield (who is probably going to get credit back from ORCA anyway- that’s how this chain is supposed to work), get your money back, and move on.


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Bizarroterl said:


> I suggest you just do the return and move on. This thread has turned into a platform for trolling attacks. You've been very reasonable but this is the Internet, where reason is often lacking. Staying on will just open you to more and more attacks. Life's too short.


This is a public forum, not a circle jerk or safe space. 

No one has been attacked; and at any rate, no one is responsible for anyone else's feelings.

Perhaps those who are easily offended by differing opinions and mild sarcasm ought to refrain from posting in a public forum.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> Premium money? You got the KRXs at a close-out discount from Crutchfield man. You even said TNT told you to buy them because they had them for cheaper than you could get them. And still, when you toasted a 3”, TNT (Focal’s network- meaning approved by and sent from ORCA) replaced it. And this entire time you’ve been camping on the fact that Crutchfield- also part of this authorized network- has offered you a full refund?? Which you could then take the money, “pay your difference” as you’ve said, and get a new component set from TNT? Also meanwhile, ORCA is here offering technical and customer support to you in this thread, and you’re upset because you couldn’t force them to call your dealer when you haven’t provided any evidence that a problem even exists? ??*♂
> 
> On top of all this, I know why TNT only exchanged the Arc amps for more 1200.6... because they are not Arc dealers, so naturally they didn’t have any 600.4 in stock.
> 
> Essentially, you pieced together a stereo from the internet, took it to a shop you’ve used forever, ordered a few Focal sets from them, and now you’re upset because you’re having problems, and haven’t wanted to touch any of it yourself for fear of voiding warranties. Send them back to Crutchfield (who is probably going to get credit back from ORCA anyway- that’s how this chain is supposed to work), get your money back, and move on.


It looks like the Cobbknobblers are up and spewing their trolling again!


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Grinder said:


> This is a public forum, not a circle jerk or safe space.
> 
> No one has been attacked; and at any rate, no one is responsible for anyone else's feelings.
> 
> Perhaps those who are easily offended by differing opinions and mild sarcasm ought to refrain from posting in a public forum.


It looks like the Cobbknobblers are up and spewing their trolling again!


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

If you’d come in this thread initially and said:



> I bought a set of Focal KRX on closeout from Crutchfield, some Arc amps from another source, and had them installed locally at a Focal dealer. The comps have a turn-on pop that my shop thinks is from a mod to the passives. ORCA thinks it may be the amps. Crutchfield offered me a full refund on the comps and I’m happy to pay the difference between these and a different set; I just want them to work.. What do you guys think I should do?


... do you think this thread would have ended up here, at 21 pages? ?


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> It looks like the Cobbknobblers are up and spewing their trolling again!


It’s not trolling when it’s accurate. You can throw labels around all you like, but you have made yourself out to be a victim when no crime has occurred.

If anything, this thread serves as a warning to sellers doing potential business with you, rather than buyers potentially doing business with Focal/ORCA.


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

seriously time to close this thread.


----------



## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)




----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> It’s not trolling when it’s accurate. You can throw labels around all you like, but you have made yourself out to be a victim when no crime has occurred.


Focal's service definitely needs improving and I refuse to get on my knees like the Cobbknobblers do.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> seriously time to close this thread.


I am not going to be insulted forever and not say something back. And we can continue this on any forum that y'all choose because what has happened to me isn't right.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> I am not going to be insulted forever and not say something back. And we can continue this on any forum that y'all choose because what has happened to me isn't right.


Yes, what a travesty that you bought speakers that may or may not have an issue and were offered a complete refund by the dealer who sold them to you! The horror!


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

miniSQ said:


> seriously time to close this thread.


Absolutely. Over 500 posts ...and a complete waste of time.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Grinder said:


> Absolutely. Over 500 posts ...and a complete waste of time.


Let's make it 1,000 because if it doesn't happen here, it will just happen somewhere else. 

In my opinion, Orca's Customer Service needs improvements and there is no other nicer way to say it.


----------



## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

Lol, get called out on your bs and non-communication and then start calling people names. It is too damn funny.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> Let's make it 1,000 because if it doesn't happen here, it will just happen somewhere else.


You're the Louis CK victim of the customer service #metoo movement.


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KillerBox said:


> Let's make it 1,000 because if it doesn't happen here, it will just happen somewhere else...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egoMcUXNgow


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

wizzi001 said:


> Lol, get called out on your bs and non-communication and then start calling people names. It is too damn funny.


If this comment is directed at me, I haven't BS on anything and I have communicated more than I ever should have too. 

So enjoy the laughs because when the Cobbslobbers close down this thread to protect their buddy, it will just start over somewhere else.


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KillerBox said:


> .... So enjoy the laughs because when the Cobbslobbers close down this thread to protect their buddy, it will just start over somewhere else.


#crickets


----------



## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> If this comment is directed at me, I haven't BS on anything and I have communicated more than I ever should have too.
> 
> So enjoy the laughs because when the Cobbslobbers close down this thread to protect their buddy, it will just start over somewhere else.



You haven't posted a video of the issue, you haven't communicated with the dealer, you haven't even troubleshooted properly.


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

KillerBox said:


> If this comment is directed at me, I haven't BS on anything and I have communicated more than I ever should have too.
> 
> So enjoy the laughs because when the Cobbslobbers close down this thread to protect their buddy, it will just start over somewhere else.



may i suggest taking this to Focal's forum or facebook page? DIYMA has put up with your long enough, you have worn out your welcome.


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

KillerBox said:


> If this comment is directed at me, I haven't BS on anything and I have communicated more than I ever should have too.
> 
> So enjoy the laughs because when the Cobbslobbers close down this thread to protect their buddy, it will just start over somewhere else.



may i suggest taking this to Focal's forum or facebook page? DIYMA has put up with your crap long enough, you have worn out your welcome.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

wizzi001 said:


> You haven't posted a video of the issue, you haven't communicated with the dealer, you haven't even troubleshooted properly.


It is not my job to post a video. I informed Orca and I took the SUV to the Focal Authorized Dealer for the 4th time. 

I don't even know exactly what to troubleshoot yet and I was just cleared for working on it yesterday afternoon. So I will try to fix it this weekend.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> may i suggest taking this to Focal's forum or facebook page? DIYMA has put up with your crap long enough, you have worn out your welcome.


Thanks for the idea! But, I am not leaving here because I have done nothing wrong.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> It is not my job to post a video. I informed Orca and I took the SUV to the Focal Authorized Dealer for the 4th time.
> 
> I don't even know exactly what to troubleshoot yet and I was just cleared for working on it yesterday afternoon. So I will try to fix it this weekend.


Every time I see your username, I think of that horror movie where that vagina has teeth. As this thread has devolved into the non-issue that it is now, that’s precisely what you are: a whiny vagina with teeth. #KillerBox 

Love, 

Cobbslobber #13


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> Every time I see your username, I think of that horror movie where that vagina has teeth. As this thread has devolved into the non-issue that it is now, that’s precisely what you are: a whiny vagina with teeth. #KillerBox
> 
> Love,
> 
> Cobbslobber #13


At this point, I have already been insulted. So now you ban me from here and I have to find and fix my own system. Oh no, I was going to have to do that anyway! 

*Either way if this is the best that Orca's Authorized Network can do is a customer is finding his own problem, I will inform everyone that I can about Focal, Mosconi, Gladen and Illusion's product support team.*


----------



## jrgreene1968 (Jul 7, 2008)

This has done become STUPID.. you have been offered several things to check, have been offered a full refund, etc etc, and you continue to come on here bitching. Time to grow a pair and move on.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

jrgreene1968 said:


> This has done become STUPID.. you have been offered several things to check, have been offered a full refund, etc etc, and you continue to come on here bitching. Time to grow a pair and move on.


You call it bitching and I call it being railroaded. I don't know what Focal in France will call it but, either way we will see.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

jrgreene1968 said:


> This has done become STUPID.. you have been offered several things to check, have been offered a full refund, etc etc, and you continue to come on here bitching. *Time to grow a pair and move on*.


Yup. But we know that's not going to happen any time soon.

It's become clear that we're being trolled. Time for us to stop feeding the troll.


----------



## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

mikey7182 said:


> Every time I see your username, I think of that horror movie where that vagina has teeth. As this thread has devolved into the non-issue that it is now, that’s precisely what you are: a whiny vagina with teeth. #KillerBox
> 
> Love,
> 
> Cobbslobber #13


Please stop trolling.


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I love that when you get called out for doing exactly what you have stated you have done you resort to further claims of victimhood and name calling.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Bizarroterl said:


> Please stop trolling.


I’ve spent substantial time in here trying to offer suggestions, uncover exactly what the OP’s issues and options are, and am labeled a Cobbgobbler because I disagree with the assertion that the OP is in the right? At best, I’m trolling the troll.


----------



## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

mikey7182 said:


> I’ve spent substantial time in here trying to offer suggestions, uncover exactly what the OP’s issues and options are, and am labeled a Cobbgobbler because I disagree with the assertion that the OP is in the right? At best, I’m trolling the troll.


Then please stop trolling.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


> I love that when you get called out for doing exactly what you have stated you have done you resort to further claims of victimhood and name calling.


I see the situation totally different than you and others here. 

But that is fine with me, because I knew people were going to get upset as soon as I said something about their favorite product and/or buddy.

The way I see it, I was going to have to fix the problem myself if I didn't comment and now after 20+ pages, I am still going to have to fix the problem myself. 

I commented on this page because I wanted to shine light on Focal's Customer Support Network. Either to make them fix their stuff or to inform others. 

Some will believe my side and some will believe Focal's Network side. Either way is better than just playing a ping pong game between the Focal Dealer and Focal Customer Service in the shadows.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> I see the situation totally different than you and others here.
> 
> But that is fine with me, because I knew people were going to get upset as soon as I said something about their favorite product and/or buddy.
> 
> ...


You know, since page 1 of this thread, any time someone questioned what you had tried, or done anything other than commiserate with you re: your troubles, you instinctively responded with "So what affiliation do you have with Focal/ORCA??" Members here who were genuinely trying to help you solve your problem were met with accusations of some insider industry BS. 

The irony is, the main reason I ever became friends with Jacob in the first place, is BECAUSE of the type of customer support he provides, and I wasn't even his ****ing customer!  I met him several years back at a show, where I demo'd my now-pseudo-famous S-10 for him, and he gave me tips and pointers on tuning, and subsequently answered a bunch of dumb questions I had, when I wasn't even running any gear he rep'd. The reason you see Gladen and Mosconi gear in my sig now, is because he has always been helpful and knowledgeable, even when I didn't have any skin in the ORCA game, and even though I was a P99 fanboy, he earned my business. I still, to this day, have no affiliation whatsoever with ORCA. 

You can call names and point fingers and make unfounded assumptions all you want in an attempt to deflect attention away from what a whiny child you've been. It doesn't change the fact that you have absolutely nothing to complain about, and whether you take Jacob up on his offer to honor your warranty by tinkering with things yourself, or if you take Crutchfield up on their offer to refund your money, you are accomplishing exactly what you said you wanted to in the beginning of this thread. It was completely unnecessary to come in here and try to **** on Focal/ORCA.


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KillerBox said:


> I see the situation totally different than you and others here.
> 
> But that is fine with me, because* I knew people were going to get upset as soon as I said something about their favorite product and/or buddy*.
> 
> ...


.....



Bizarroterl said:


> Please stop trolling.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> You know, since page 1 of this thread, any time someone questioned what you had tried, or done anything other than commiserate with you re: your troubles, you instinctively responded with "So what affiliation do you have with Focal/ORCA??" Members here who were genuinely trying to help you solve your problem were met with accusations of some insider industry BS.
> 
> The irony is, the main reason I ever became friends with Jacob in the first place, is BECAUSE of the type of customer support he provides, and I wasn't even his ****ing customer!  I met him several years back at a show, where I demo'd my now-pseudo-famous S-10 for him, and he gave me tips and pointers on tuning, and subsequently answered a bunch of dumb questions I had, when I wasn't even running any gear he rep'd. The reason you see Gladen and Mosconi gear in my sig now, is because he has always been helpful and knowledgeable, even when I didn't have any skin in the ORCA game, and even though I was a P99 fanboy, he earned my business. I still, to this day, have no affiliation whatsoever with ORCA.
> 
> You can call names and point fingers and make unfounded assumptions all you want in an attempt to deflect attention away from what a whiny child you've been. It doesn't change the fact that you have absolutely nothing to complain about, and whether you take Jacob up on his offer to honor your warranty by tinkering with things yourself, or if you take Crutchfield up on their offer to refund your money, you are accomplishing exactly what you said you wanted to in the beginning of this thread. It was completely unnecessary to come in here and try to **** on Focal/ORCA.


I am glad that Cobb gave you good service. That is all that I wanted.

In my opinion, the proper way after 3 previous tries would be for Focal/Orca to fix my problem would be for them to call their dealer and discuss a plan to fix it. Then after the discussion is for me to show up for the 4th time and leave as a happy customer.

But that is not what happened here. Instead we got 1 month+ plus of talking and I am still fixing my own problem.

As I have said before, I don't want 4 sets of mix matched speakers in my SUV. So all 4 sets of Focal stay or all 4 sets of Focal are taken out. This is why I haven't taken Crutchfield up on their offer. 

Also, if the 4 sets in my SUV are removed then I no longer need the 4 spares in my closet. So all 8 sets would either be sent back (if they would accept them), sold to an individual or burned in my fire pit put on YouTube with the story of why.

Anyway *now people know that this is Orca's solution for me* and they after reading these type of threads can make their own minds up. Either way, I am good and I will eventually fixed it myself or remove it.


----------



## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> In my opinion, the proper way after 3 previous tries would be for Focal/Orca to fix my problem would be for them to call their dealer and discuss a plan to fix it. Then after the discussion is for me to show up for the 4th time and leave as a happy customer.
> 
> But that is not what happened here. Instead we got 1 month+ plus of talking and I am still fixing my own problem.


Wait...wait...is that all you wanted? For Orca/Focal to fix the problem they already stated is not a designated problem. They gave you options, they gave you advise, tons of people here gave you advise. You have 1 plus months of talking here...did you really think that taking your bitchfest to a public forum was going to get your **** done? I am sorry sir. It does not work that way. The minute you take what should be a private discussion between you and your DEALER (who may take it up with their Factory Rep, who then would take it up with the US Distributor (who is Orca), then maybe something would be done.

I think Jacob went above and beyond what is required for customer service, and the sad thing here is, you aren't appreciative. Reminds me of a Dell customer who bought a laptop, said laptop had turn on issues. (was a well known issue with that motherboard). Dell offered to replace the laptop, but customer didn't want that. He wanted it fixed. The only mother boards that work with that laptop were the ones that were broke from the factory. The fix is to replace. But no, that wasn't good enough. Had to take it above his salesman's head, above his manager's head, above the engineer's head, above the regional sales manager's head, above the national sales manager's head, and onto the desk of Michael Dell himself. Only to be told this. "We can replace your laptop with a new one."

Drop this...seriously. Your credibility in this forum is already crapped out, and you are seriously digging yourself a huge hole to bury yourself in it.

This is (to me) the main reason that the internet killed the brick and mortar install dealers.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> I am glad that Cobb gave you good service. That is all that I wanted.
> 
> In my opinion, the proper way after 3 previous tries would be for Focal/Orca to fix my problem would be for them to call their dealer and discuss a plan to fix it. Then after the discussion is for me to show up for the 4th time and leave as a happy customer.
> 
> ...


https://www.crutchfield.com/fg_410_FFBrand|Focal/Focal-Component-Speakers.html?&pg=2

It appears Crutchfield has current stock on multiple sets of components that would match or closely match the other sets you’d leave in. If not, you’d get a refund on the “bad” set and take that money and buy a matching set from another authorized dealer (like TNT). Once again, you’re creating a problem where one does not exist which leads us to believe you’d rather complain than find a solution. There is no reason why you’d have to return all 8 sets of components. That’s insane.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I sent you a PM Cobb2819
> 
> To answer everyone's questions, turn on pop only happens when you wire bi-amp Focal's passive crossover to 4 different amplifier channels.
> 
> ...


I think this was my 2nd or maybe 3rd post on this topic after my 3rd trip to the dealer. Two months ago on May 09, 2018:

*But, Focal doesn't have to convince me. Just tell my local authorized dealer how to fix it and I will let them convince me when I no longer have a turn on pop.* Cloud up the issue however you all like but, this is what I wanted. Now everyone knows that *Orca either doesn't want to provide or is incapable of providing.*


----------



## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Bizarroterl said:


> Then please stop trolling.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> There is no reason why you’d have to return all 8 sets of components. That’s insane.


Because I am done with Focal/Orca


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

> As I have said before, I don't want 4 sets of mix matched speakers in my SUV. So all 4 sets of Focal stay or all 4 sets of Focal are taken out. This is why I haven't taken Crutchfield up on their offer.
> 
> Also, if the 4 sets in my SUV are removed then I no longer need the 4 spares in my closet. So all 8 sets would either be sent back (if they would accept them), sold to an individual or burned in my fire pit put on YouTube with the story of why.





KillerBox said:


> Because I am done with Focal/Orca


So you weren't sure, and now you are? You made up your mind in the past 20 minutes? No company ever wants to lose a customer, but I think in this case, an exception might be made. What did Goldmember say?


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

In honor of your inflexible, no-compromise approach to being a human being:

https://youtu.be/CQSRPMFDTSs


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQ Audi said:


> Drop this...seriously. Your credibility in this forum is already crapped out, and you are seriously digging yourself a huge hole to bury yourself in it.


I am ok with my credibility crapping out. I am ok with huge holes. I am ok with some forum members not liking me. The way I see it:

If I didn't bring out in the open = Fixing the problem myself

If I did bring it out in the open = Fixing the problem myself 

If I keep bringing it out in the open = Fixing the problem myself


I don't know how you look at it but, from where I sit, I got a crappy hand dealing with Focal/Orca no matter which way that I go!!!


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> I am ok with my credibility crapping out. I am ok with huge holes. I am ok with some forum members not liking me. The way I see it:
> 
> If I didn't bring out in the open = Fixing the problem myself
> 
> ...


Fixing the problem yourself = being an adult. And it's not like Crutchfield left you hanging out to dry, so how is that "fixing it yourself?" You don't even know what the problem is! And neither does anyone else because you refuse to troubleshoot, or disclose what's been tried other than some vagueries. 

If Crutchfield had given you the finger, I could see escalating it to ORCA, since that's where you sourced your gear in question. But they did not. And you didn't bother disclosing that you bought from Crutchfield, or that they had offered you a full refund, until the end of this thread. Why would ORCA call TNT and tell them to exchange your set for a different set, when TNT is not who you bought the gear from? Do you buy Pioneer speakers online from Walmart, and then have them installed at Best Buy, and then expect Pioneer to call Best Buy when you have an issue that hasn't even been proven to be a Pioneer speaker flaw, and leave Walmart out of the entire thing? I can't wrap my mind around what you're missing here.


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

KillerBox said:


> I am glad that Cobb gave you good service. That is all that I wanted.
> 
> In my opinion, the proper way after 3 previous tries would be for Focal/Orca to fix my problem would be for them to call their dealer and discuss a plan to fix it. Then after the discussion is for me to show up for the 4th time and leave as a happy customer.
> 
> ...


Problem with your idiotic theory here, is that anyone who reads this thread is going to see what Cobb tried to do to help you , and how a dozen people tried to help you and you became a complete prick. So if anything Cobb's responses will help sell more Orca product.

PS. Not a lot of love for Focal here anyway, and don't get me started on how f'd up your whole system must sound with 4 sets of comps in it. I'm assuming the turn on pop is the best sounding part of it.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> If Crutchfield had given you the finger, I could see escalating it to ORCA, since that's where you sourced your gear in question. But they did not. And you didn't bother disclosing that you bought from Crutchfield, or that they had offered you a full refund, until the end of this thread. Why would ORCA call TNT and tell them to exchange your set for a different set, when TNT is not who you bought the gear from? Do you buy Pioneer speakers online from Walmart, and then have them installed at Best Buy, and then expect Pioneer to call Best Buy when you have an issue that hasn't even been proven to be a Pioneer speaker flaw, and leave Walmart out of the entire thing? I can't wrap my mind around what you're missing here.


I can't help what you can't wrap your mind around.

Focal/Orca should fix their problems. They are either incapable or unwilling to do so. So I will fix it myself and continue to inform people of what type of Product Support that Focal gives.

Simple as pie for even the small minded people to understand!


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

miniSQ said:


> Problem with your idiotic theory here, is that anyone who reads this thread is going to see what Cobb tried to do to help you , and how a dozen people tried to help you and you became a complete prick. So if anything Cobb's responses will help sell more Orca product.
> 
> PS. Not a lot of love for Focal here anyway, and don't get me started on how f'd up your whole system must sound with 4 sets of comps in it. I'm assuming the turn on pop is the best sounding part of it.


Cobb has done nothing but, type on this forum to cover up for his company. As far as I can tell, he hasn't done one thing for me other than type response here. Cobb didn't even pick up the phone when I asked him to repeatedly.

So your opinion is about my theory is noted and I still think I am correct and Focal/Orca Service needs a lot of improvements!


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## pjhabit (Aug 12, 2008)




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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Btw, I am most likely off here for the evening because I have a family function to go too. But, we can carry on again tomorrow and everyday past that point because I still believe that I am right.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

pjhabit said:


>


Yes because stuff like that really helps the conversation move forward!


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> I can't help what you can't wrap your mind around.
> 
> Focal/Orca should fix their problems. They are either incapable or unwilling to do so. So I will fix it myself and continue to inform people of what type of Product Support that Focal gives.
> 
> Simple as pie for even the small minded people to understand!


I don't need (or anticipate) your help wrapping my mind around anything; you're preoccupied enough intellectually as it is. It isn't their problem (or hasn't been proven to be aside from you alleging that TNT says it is). Limited product support is a risk you took when you purchased gear at a discount that had been advertised as discontinued. And yet still, more than TWO YEARS after purchase, and after a year of having the set installed, your authorized Focal dealer (Crutchfield) is STILL willing to fully honor your warranty by providing you with a full refund, on a product that has been out of production for almost 3 years. On top of that, an ORCA rep has offered to honor your manufacturer's warranty if you decide to swap out gear yourself to troubleshoot. This is exactly how a manufacturer/distributor/dealer network chain is supposed to function. He and other members have also offered you numerous ideas for figuring this out to determine if it is in fact a Focal issue. In the face of this hurricane of support, all you can do is cling, white-knuckled to the "but... but TNT said it's Focal!!" flag pole, with no word from TNT, and no contact from TNT to ORCA, except for you saying that they said they called them.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> I don't need (or anticipate) your help wrapping my mind around anything; you're preoccupied enough intellectually as it is. It isn't their problem (or hasn't been proven to be aside from you alleging that TNT says it is). Limited product support is a risk you took when you purchased gear at a discount that had been advertised as discontinued. And yet still, more than TWO YEARS after purchase, and after a year of having the set installed, your authorized Focal dealer (Crutchfield) is STILL willing to fully honor your warranty by providing you with a full refund, on a product that has been out of production for almost 3 years. On top of that, an ORCA rep has offered to honor your manufacturer's warranty if you decide to swap out gear yourself to troubleshoot. This is exactly how a manufacturer/distributor/dealer network chain is supposed to function. He and other members have also offered you numerous ideas for figuring this out to determine if it is in fact a Focal issue. In the face of this hurricane of support, all you can do is cling, white-knuckled to the "but... but TNT said!!" flag pole, with no word from TNT, and no contact from TNT to ORCA, except for you saying that they said they called them.


I didn't read 1/2 of what you said because I got somewhere to be but, my Focal product came with a 3 year warranty (even the way that I purchased it) don't believe me then ask Cobb.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> I didn't read 1/2 of what you said because I got somewhere to be but, my Focal product came with a 3 year warranty (even the way that I purchased it) don't believe me then ask Cobb.


I know the warranty is 3 years, and guess what? It's being honored by the authorized Focal dealer you purchased it from. So what's your complaint again? Focal's customer service is poor because their dealer is willing to refund your purchase price on your gear, even though nobody knows if it's even an issue with the Focal passives since yours is the only documented case? Or because you're frustrated with the limited product support you have on discontinued product, through a separate Focal dealer because you pieced your system together on the internet two years ago and are having system issues that may be unrelated to the Focal gear?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> I know the warranty is 3 years, and guess what? It's being honored by the authorized Focal dealer you purchased it from. So what's your complaint again? Focal's customer service is poor because their dealer is willing to refund your purchase price on your gear, even though nobody knows if it's even an issue with the Focal passives since yours is the only documented case? Or because you're frustrated with the limited product support you have on discontinued product, through a separate Focal dealer because you pieced your system together on the internet two years ago and are having system issues that may be unrelated to the Focal gear?


Easy to figure it out, Focal Authorized Dealer install Focal equipment. Authorized Dealer says Focal equipment is ****ty. 


Focal Customer Service says Focal Authorized Dealer never contacted them. 


I tell Focal Customer Service that I am bringing it back in for service since that was their previous excuse of why they couldn't fix it. 

Focal Customer Service now says they didn't know that I had brought it back in.

Some of the ****ty Service that I have ever seen!!!


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

KillerBox said:


> I don't know how you look at it but, from where I sit, I got a crappy hand dealing with Focal/Orca no matter which way that I go!!!


Unless, of course, your pop problem is NOT being caused by your Focal speakers but rather by something else in the install (perhaps the amp), in which case Orca has NOTHING to do with it.

In all actuality, the ONLY way to see it is that you got a crappy hand from your installer who also HAPPENS to be a Focal authorized dealer. And while I'll even admit that while it is certainly possible that the Focal speaker impedance swings are the cause of your turn on pop, based on the COMPLETE LACK of more DETAILED INFORMATION about the trouble shooting process (except of course when they observed the problem went away when using the beamed active install), as well as the complete absence of COMMUNICATION on your installers part (except to place the blame on Focal/Orca) it is still impossible to say without a doubt that the actual cause of your turn on pop is. 



And it certainly seems to me that at least some members here, INCLUDING Cobb (who I don't know buy certainly seems to be trying to help your situation out...at least short of flying down there on his own time to fix your problem), have been trying to help you determine the cause of your turn on pop definitively so that you can THEN move forward with a solution, which might well involve Focal/Orca warranty on parts. But like ANY trouble shooting case, until the cause is DEFINITIVELY determined, there is no way forward to a solution.

Just my .02


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> I know the warranty is 3 years, and guess what? It's being honored by the authorized Focal dealer you purchased it from. So what's your complaint again? Focal's customer service is poor because their dealer is willing to refund your purchase price on your gear, even though nobody knows if it's even an issue with the Focal passives since yours is the only documented case? Or because you're frustrated with the limited product support you have on discontinued product, through a separate Focal dealer because you pieced your system together on the internet two years ago and are having system issues that may be unrelated to the Focal gear?


Or because Orca's customer service has stated publicly that they are willing to maintain the 3 year warranty (against published policy) even if you attempt to troubleshoot this issue yourself. An a apparent necessity based on the claims that your installer (their authorized retailer) was unable to correct the issue with your system after four trips?


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

seafish said:


> Unless, of course, your pop problem is NOT being caused by your Focal speakers but rather by something else in the install (perhaps the amp), in which case Orca has NOTHING to do with it.
> 
> In all actuality, the ONLY way to see it is that you got a crappy hand from your installer who also HAPPENS to be a Focal authorized dealer. And while I'll even admit that while it is certainly possible that the Focal speaker impedance swings are the cause of your turn on pop, based on the COMPLETE LACK of more detailed INFORMATION and trouble shooting, as well as the complete absence of COMMUNICATION on your installers part (except to place the blame on Focal/Orca) it is still impossible to say without a doubt that the actual cause of your turn on pop is.


This right here, is why ORCA is not breathing down TNT's throat trying to resolve this. It's not a manufacturer's job to hunt down every problem at a shop to figure out whether or not that problem is related to their product, or another product, especially when that dealer has not reached out to the manufacturer for support, and especially considering you did not buy the product from that dealer. You're essentially trying to circumvent having to return product to the store you bought it from, without it even being established that the gear is faulty, and you're mad that the distributor isn't playing ball.

Had there been substantiated claims by TNT, listing what they'd done for troubleshooting, then sure- ORCA needs to step up. Had there been a documented history of other turn-on pops with this set, then sure... ORCA needs to step up. But neither of those things exist. The fact that the only thing TNT did to troubleshoot according to you was remove the passives, and swap in other 1200.6 amps that you supplied them, leaves us right where we started: wondering if it is an issue with the unused channels on the amplifier, or an issue with the turn-on pop on that particular amplifier that has been demonstrated in a video here by ca90ss. And we have no idea if TNT has tried those things. And you're hung up on the fact that ORCA doesn't call TNT to tell them to do those things?  That this is Focal's fault is far from definitive, no matter how often you repeat it. If TNT is refusing to work on it again without direction from ORCA, then go down there and have them call ORCA in front of you, because obviously they're jerking your chain. Short of that, bridge the amp, or buy a 600.4 to test it, Or get a refund from Crutchfield. All viable options, that you don't want to hear.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

*You guys all realize this is like arguing politics at this point and nothing you are going to say to the OP, no matter how clever or what meme or gif you use, will change is him about who is at fault.

Since the mods won't close this thread.....STOP REPLYING TO HIM!!!! Then he will go away. Quit the endless posts that he won't listen to.....quit wasting your time.....seriously we all have MUCH better things to do. 

QUIT RUBBERNECKING THE CAR WRECK ALREADY!!!!!! *


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## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

rton20s said:


> Or because Orca's customer service has stated publicly that they are willing to maintain the 3 year warranty (against published policy) even if you attempt to troubleshoot this issue yourself. An a apparent necessity based on the claims that your installer (their authorized retailer) was unable to correct the issue with your system after four trips?


I must of missed that post. If this is true why the hell is he at least not swapping an amp out to see if the amp is the issue? It sounds like he just wants to rant and rave with no actual results.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> Please give me a list of all your solutions so that I can easily have them on hand when I attempt to fix this problem.


Here's the problem, all of my solutions involve your amp and the way it's wired. None of my solutions point to the Focal speakers themselves as being the problem and yet you continue to blame them. So since my solution points to the amp and you're adamant that it's not the amp I don't really see much of a point in wasting 20 minutes writing a detailed response on how to troubleshoot your system that will fall on deaf ears. So at this point it's your call, you can continue to bash and blame Focal and a few pages ago there was a brilliant theory that will be absolutely no help to you that you can use to assist with troubleshooting or you can admit the possibility that it's not the Focal speakers and that all of the bashing you've done to this point was premature and uncalled for and I'll be glad to help.


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## Hammer1 (Jan 30, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> *Either way if this is the best that Orca's Authorized Network can do is a customer is finding his own problem, I will inform everyone that I can about Focal, Mosconi, Gladen and Illusion's product support team.*


How do you know what the support is on Mosconi ,Illusion and Gladen is. Orca’s job is to support the Dealer and from what has been said by Jacob they have not even called Orca. But you keep bad mouthing Jacob and orca but not the shop that installed it and the shop and you have not provided one bit of evidence to prove the Focals are the problem. Send the Focals back,get your money and buy something else. Problem solved


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

First, *I would like to thank *the few people that have sent me private messages and emails. Your words of encouragements do help.

Second, we are all grown people here *so let’s cut out the personal insults and bullying tactics.*

Third, after returning my SUV to the Focal Authorized Dealer that did my install for the 4th time, I obviously need help on understanding what the Focal Network does to help and protect an average customer. So I would like to ask what exactly does the sign *“Focal Authorized Dealer” mean for the average customer* that buys from the average dealer in any average city in the USA?

Here is the list that I could come up with so far about how the “Focal Authorized Dealer” benefits the average customer but, feel free to correct or add anything that will help an average customer have a better understanding of the *benefits from buying from a Focal’s Authorized Network*:

1.) It is an extra layer of security against counterfeits. Notice I didn’t say it guarantees no counterfeits because *no one outside the dealer (except in rare cases) is physically checking what is being sold or installed*. So this might or not help the average customer.

2.) The local dealer can call Orca for a problem they cannot solve themselves. *This does not guarantee the dealer will call because according to Orca my dealer did not.* So this might or not help the average customer.

3.) Orca might or might not warranty the items being sold. That is up to Orca to decide if the product has a manufacturing defect because Orca clearly states they will cover burned or damaged products.
So this might or not help the average customer.


cobb2819 said:


> And just to show in this one particular case, that we are trying to help, if you modify your install, I'll keep you product warranty intact, the warranty against manufacturing defect, not burned or damaged products.


4.) If the *average customer maintains their own system*, Orca may or may not void their warranty. So this might or not help the average customer.


cobb2819 said:


> Are your products under warranty? Yes. Is the warranty handled through the retailer from which you purchased the product? Yes. When the install is maintained by an authorized retailer, you still have your 3 year warranty intact.


5.) After a problem is brought to *Orca’s attention they may or may not call the Focal Authorized Dealer.* In my case, even after repeatedly being asked to Orca did not. So this might or not help the average customer.

6.) Is the Focal Authorized Dealer continuously trained and physically observed in proper installation procedures? *I doubt it because Orca themselves don’t seem to believe* that their crossovers are causing my problems even though the *Focal Authorized Dealer has said on 4 occasions otherwise.*

7.) The *Focal Authorized Dealer might be selling newly designed items or old designs.* Before anyone says, nowhere on Crutchfield at the time I purchased in 2016 did my 165KRX3 did it say they were old designs, closeouts or discontinued items. Sure Crutchfield says now they are discontinued since they are all sold but, at the time Crutchfield said they were a “special buy”.


cobb2819 said:


> The speaker set was designed from 2005-2007 and released in 2008. Class D amps were not common in full range, high end builds during this time. When I think back to the shops i worked in during the development time, they were mostly class a/b with class d subwoofer counterparts, or BIG class a/b sub amps. The Focal FP and FPS amps for example were class a/b on the multichannel amps. Never in my life would I have sold a class D of the time with a series of speakers like this.


8.) If an average customer buys and get your equipment installed from a Focal Authorized Dealer and the Focal Network can’t get it to work properly, the average customer may remove the equipment themselves be careful not to damage it and receive a refund (depending on the individual dealer’s policies). So this might or not help the average customer *because not all of us have the skills to take a vehicle apart and not to damage the Focal equipment in the process.* I know this is why some of us had the Focal Authorized Dealer install the equipment in the first place! 


9.)


10.)


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

Looks about right. Hope you get resolution in some form or another.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> But, we can carry on again tomorrow and everyday past that point because I still believe that I am right.



You seem to be the type of person who would rather be right at all costs. 

I fear that there is no help for you regardless if there is a fix for this situation. As you stated, you will likely have to fix it yourself. Which brings me to this question....Why are you still here on this forum? This isn't anyone's fault here but your own. For not following up with Crutchfield in the first place. Just because TNT is an authorized Focal establishment, if you didn't purchase from them, they are not obligated to do anything for you outside of their own installation warranty.

If they stated it was the speakers, go directly to the place that you purchased the speakers from. Have them fix the issue for you. 

As you so proudly keep saying... "It's not rocket science."


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQ Audi said:


> You seem to be the type of person who would rather be right at all costs.
> 
> I fear that there is no help for you regardless if there is a fix for this situation. As you stated, you will likely have to fix it yourself. Which brings me to this question....Why are you still here on this forum? Pull up your big boy panties, come into the sunlight outside Mommy's basement, and fix the issue. This isn't anyone's fault here but your own. For not following up with Crutchfield in the first place. Just because TNT is an authorized Focal establishment, if you didn't purchase from them, they are not obligated to do anything for you outside of their own installation warranty.
> 
> ...


I am right and you can disprove anything that I stated by adding or correcting to the list right above.

So I will continue saying what I want, when I want and to whoever I want. And your personal insults are not going to stop me.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

9) Focal and their Authorized Dealer Network do not offer technical support or warranty products manufactured by Arc Audio.

Not once in this entire thread have you considered (or been willing to consider) that the diagnosis you allege TNT came up with is wrong. Is there any chance in your mind that TNT did not do everything necessary to rule out the issue being the Focal set? Or will you just continue to repeat “a Focal Dealer says it’s a Focal problem and I have no reason to doubt them”?

The way I see it, you have two choices: trust TNT’s diagnosis and return your products to Crutchfield for a full refund, or ask TNT to perform further diagnosis as outlined in this thread. The end.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> 9) Focal and their Authorized Dealer Network do not offer technical support or warranty products manufactured by Arc Audio.
> 
> Not once in this entire thread have you considered (or been willing to consider) that the diagnosis you allege TNT came up with is wrong. Is there any chance in your mind that TNT did not do everything necessary to rule out the issue being the Focal set? Or will you just continue to repeat “a Focal Dealer says it’s a Focal problem and I have no reason to doubt them”?
> 
> The way I see it, you have two choices: trust TNT’s diagnosis and return your products to Crutchfield for a full refund, or ask TNT to perform further diagnosis as outlined in this thread. The end.


I think your number 9 was covered by my number 6 :laugh:


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> I think your number 9 was covered by my number 6 :laugh:


You can lead a horse to water, as they say. I don’t care if they tried it 8 times. Because they happen to be a Focal dealer doesn’t mean they are aware that leaving unused channels on the Arc might very well be causing this. You’ve got your mind made up though. No reason to keep going rounds with you. Good luck to you, KB.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Actually, I will address a few more of your points that I take issue with:



KillerBox said:


> 3.) Orca might or might not warranty the items being sold. That is up to Orca to decide if the product has a manufacturing defect because Orca clearly states they will cover burned or damaged products.
> So this might or not help the average customer.


 This is industry standard, and pretty much worldwide standard as far as product support, so it's not worth mentioning as if it's significant.



> 4.) If the *average customer maintains their own system*, Orca may or may not void their warranty. So this might or not help the average customer.


This too.




> 5.) After a problem is brought to *Orca’s attention they may or may not call the Focal Authorized Dealer.* In my case, even after repeatedly being asked to Orca did not. So this might or not help the average customer.


Your problem has not been determined to be a Focal issue (or the shop has not informed ORCA that it is- see below). 



> 6.) Is the Focal Authorized Dealer continuously trained and physically observed in proper installation procedures? *I doubt it because Orca themselves don’t seem to believe* that their crossovers are causing my problems even though the *Focal Authorized Dealer has said on 4 occasions otherwise.*


That the shop might not have diagnosed this issue properly is no more a reflection on Focal than it is any of the other brands they are authorized to sell. The fact that there are other possible causes that have nothing to do with Focal reinforces this point. You wouldn't blame Arc Audio's dealer network nor make generalized statements about them if this turns out to be the passive crossovers, right?  To make generalized statements about the entire authorized dealer network is absurd, honestly. It seems your tactic has switched from forcing ORCA to call TNT by making it public, to forcing ORCA to call TNT through shaming the alleged incompetence of their dealer network. 




> 8.) If an average customer buys and get your equipment installed from a Focal Authorized Dealer and the Focal Network can’t get it to work properly, the average customer may remove the equipment themselves be careful not to damage it and receive a refund (depending on the individual dealer’s policies). So this might or not help the average customer *because not all of us have the skills to take a vehicle apart and not to damage the Focal equipment in the process.* I know this is why some of us had the Focal Authorized Dealer install the equipment in the first place!


Is there something prohibiting you from having TNT uninstall the Focal set before you send it back to Crutchfield?  Nobody is forcing you to take it out yourself. IF there is a cost incurred, that is your own fault for not doing your due diligence as a consumer prior to purchasing equipment from one retailer, and having another install it. Simple questions like "since I bought this at Crutchfield, in the event of any warranty claims, will TNT charge me to remove the gear?"

The long and short of it is, you sound like the type of customer that needs to purchase products locally, with plenty of established local support. Had you bought these from TNT, instead of trying to save a few bucks at their suggestion by purchasing through Crutchfield, they would have uninstalled them and sent them back to ORCA, who would have tested the set in person to verify defect, then warrantied or denied the claim. And I would speculate that they’d test it on an A/B amp, or a class D with no unused channels, and experience ZERO turn-on pop. I guess we will never know.


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

Man, I see alot of people in here that have some growing up to do. This guy is getting relentlessly bashed by many in here who are like a dog with a bone. Whether hes right or wrong, whether he has taken the whole process in the right direction or not, Is on him.
It is between Him, His Installer, His retailer, and Focal (Orca) IF it turns out to be their issue.
Now I realize that he brought this to an open forum, and is subject to commentary from others (whether they are right or wrong, as well) But some of you guys just keep going, and going, and going like you have a position in all this. This thread would literally be 5 pages long if it were not for all the flaming, insults, and other relentless garbage posted in here.
Some have commented that they realize hes the type of guy whos mind can't be changed, but have posted 25 times after that arguing with him. Ridiculous.
You know who looks bad in all this? EVERYONE involved, But mostly, DIYMA as a whole for the treatment of the poster who just wanted help with a problem, regardless.
Sad, Sad showing from this community, I Must say.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

He got help with a problem. Lots of help. He doesn’t want help, otherwise, he would accept it gladly and try the suggestions this community (and ORCA) have provided. You know what would have made this thread 5 pages long? Hint: I posted it once before. 

I think those of us who continue to push, are frustrated knowing how easily this could be remedied, while he continues to repeat himself and ignore sound advice. Gluttons for punishment, perhaps. Trolls? Occasionally. One thing we aren’t guilty of though, is not providing help. There are 20+ pages of that. If he wanted to keep this between himself, TNT, ORCA, and now Crutchfield, as we recently learned was a new player in the game, then he should have kept it private. He came in, bashed a company, bashed anyone who tried to help him, accusing them of being insiders, bashed Jacob from ORCA and ignored his helpful suggestions. As far as I’m concerned, he’s brought this on himself. This is the Internet. It’s not a safe place, as the anonymity of it encourages an openness that most of us don’t use in face to face interaction, but my comments stand. The OP is either a troll, a dunce, or a stubborn *******. I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

RRizz said:


> You know who looks bad in all this? EVERYONE involved, But mostly, DIYMA as a whole for the treatment of the poster who just wanted help with a problem, regardless.
> Sad, Sad showing from this community, I Must say.


After 24 pages of this, you and I must be reading different threads. This isn't KB's thread, but it has been hijacked and became about him. IMHO, exactly what he wanted. This was his initial post to the thread. It was not about him seeking help, it was him seizing a #metoo moment and bashing Focal. 



KillerBox said:


> My system consists of Focal K2 165KRX3, ES 165k and two pairs of ES 100k. Around 5k of speakers, all installed and purchased new from a Focal authorized dealer.
> 
> The speakers sound great but, I will never buy Focal products again because of their support. Because of the way Focal (Orcale) wired my 165KRX3 crossovers for bi-amping, it creates a loud turn on pop.
> 
> ...


Ryan (KB) is here seeking attention and empathy. The last couple days should make that crystal clear to anyone willing to take an objective look at the help/solutions that have been offered and the responses he has provided.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> Ideally I would prefer for Focal’s Network to fix it but, I will try. Hopefully I will have some time Saturday or Sunday. So y’all don’t get your panties in a wad if I don’t know anything until then.


This is where I said yesterday that I was going to try to find the problem myself (even though I didn't feel like it was right) but, you guys continued on. 

I wasn’t comfortable with that before but, now thanks to y’alls comments, I am way past doing my own repairs.




mikey7182 said:


> Is there something prohibiting you from having TNT uninstall the Focal set before you send it back to Crutchfield?  Nobody is forcing you to take it out yourself. IF there is a cost incurred, that is your own fault for not doing your due diligence as a consumer prior to purchasing equipment from one retailer, and having another install it. Simple questions like "since I bought this at Crutchfield, in the event of any warranty claims, will TNT charge me to remove the gear?"


It is not a money thing that is holding me back from TNT removing the gear. It is I don’t want my SUV to be there for another 2+ weeks, removing the equipment and reinstalling another manufacture’s equipment.





mikey7182 said:


> The long and short of it is, you sound like the type of customer that needs to purchase products locally, with plenty of established local support. Had you bought these from TNT, instead of trying to save a few bucks at their suggestion by purchasing through Crutchfield, they would have uninstalled them and sent them back to ORCA, who would have tested the set in person to verify defect, then warrantied or denied the claim. And I would speculate that they’d test it on an A/B amp, or a class D with no unused channels, and experience ZERO turn-on pop. I guess we will never know.


I am sorry that I don’t know the rules in the audio business. So after reading your comments, it brings up another question. Why would anyone ever buy Focal products from Crutchfield? 

1.) If the customer install themselves, Focal’s warranty is only good for 1 year. But, the local Authorized Focal Dealer doesn’t want to install stuff not purchased from them.

2.) Focal price locks all their dealers on any newly designed products. So you can get the same price at a local dealer.

3.) Any Focal items that you can save any money on at Crutchfield are most likely “Special Buys” and they are going to be very old models that may or may not work with some newly designed equipment.

4.)

5.)




rton20s said:


> Ryan (KB) is here seeking attention and empathy. The last couple days should make that crystal clear to anyone willing to take an objective look at the help/solutions that have been offered and the responses he has provided.


RTon you go again with the lies.

I am seeking one thing and one thing only. My Focal Dealer said that Focal Passive Crossovers are causing my problem and I want Focal to fix my problem.

Focal can either fix my problem or they can keep listening to me. At this point, I don’t care which it is!

Also Rton, I am glad you know my name. I haven’t hid it. If you want, I will give you my address so you can come visit me or send me a care package. Either way, I look forward to it


----------



## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

cobb2819 said:


> I am not at all sure who you spoke with about this that said what you are claiming, but I spoke with our engineer and his explanation was exactly as I had though. See below. With regard to "buy the new..." this would also not have been correct as your tweeters are not compatible with the new crossover, so you would have to buy the new crossovers and tweeters, which also wouldn't fix your turn on pop issue.
> 
> "A turn on pop is caused by a DC voltage step.
> A DC blocking capacitor allows the leading edge of the pulse to pass through because the step is an AC event.
> ...



This is Cobb's first post concerning this issue. The engineer stated what is truth, as the passive crossover cannot produce power, it is like a passive switch in networking talk. It just separates frequencies to the specific drivers. IMHO, this is where this should have stopped. It shouldn't have gone any further.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQ Audi said:


> This is Cobb's first post concerning this issue. The engineer stated what is truth, as the passive crossover cannot produce power, it is like a passive switch in networking talk. It just separates frequencies to the specific drivers. IMHO, this is where this should have stopped. It shouldn't have gone any further.


Cobb doesn't need to inform me of that I am just a paying customer.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> This is where I said yesterday that I was going to try to find the problem myself (even though I didn't feel like it was right) but, you guys continued on.
> 
> I wasn’t comfortable with that before but, now thanks to y’alls comments, I am way past doing my own repairs.


You're way past doing your own repairs because we carried on with this thread after you said you'd try to do it this weekend?  I try not to let my actions and decisions be governed by strangers' conversations on the internet, but to each their own. 



> It is not a money thing that is holding me back from TNT removing the gear. It is I don’t want my SUV to be there for another 2+ weeks, removing the equipment and reinstalling another manufacture’s equipment.


How would this be different had you purchased the set from TNT instead of Crutchfield? Buy whatever other set you're getting to have them on hand, have them remove the Focal set, install the new ones, and then package up the Focals and send them to Crutchfield. TNT's turnaround time is not relevant to this thread or your complaints about Focal/ORCA. If you aren't satisfied with the time it takes them to do things (as you've alluded to several times), maybe it's time to find a different shop after 25 years. 



> I am sorry that I don’t know the rules in the audio business. So after reading your comments, it brings up another question. Why would anyone ever buy Focal products from Crutchfield?


The same reason they decide to purchase products from anywhere else. Some people feel that the price of the Focal products is justified by their quality. They aren't "spending a premium" to get a 3 year warranty; they're spending a premium to get a premium product. Why do people decide to buy used Focal on forums? Why do people shop at brick and mortar stores? Your line of questioning doesn't make sense. What you SHOULD be asking is, "Why did *I * decide to buy Focal products from Crutchfield?" This is not exclusive to Focal, by the way. 



> 1.) If the customer install themselves, Focal’s warranty is only good for 1 year. But, the local Authorized Focal Dealer doesn’t want to install stuff not purchased from them.


I thought TNT installed all your Focal gear, including the gear you bought from Crutchfield?? What are you talking about?



> 2.) Focal price locks all their dealers on any newly designed products. So you can get the same price at a local dealer.


So does virtually every other company, particularly high end ones. Did you get a substantial discount on your Arc amps by purchasing them authorized online? 


> 3.) Any Focal items that you can save any money on at Crutchfield are most likely “Special Buys” and they are going to be very old models that may or may not work with some newly designed equipment.


That you were not aware of this at the time of purchase is not really anyone's fault but your own. Your claim that "I didn't know they were on closeout because nowhere on Crutchfield's site did they mention that the line was closeout" is ********. Here is your thread, here on DIYMA, from 2016, inquiring about the $1380 KRX3 special on Crutchfield:

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hot-deals/267489-focal-k2-power-165-krx3-$1380-crutchfield.html

Post #5 by DDFusion:



> They are closing out stock since the ES came out


As for this last part:



> I am seeking one thing and one thing only. My Focal Dealer said that Focal Passive Crossovers are causing my problem and I want Focal to fix my problem.
> 
> Focal can either fix my problem or they can keep listening to me. At this point, I don’t care which it is!





> Cobb doesn't need to inform me of that I am just a paying customer.


What Cobb informed you of is that your shop is most likely lying to you, since the odds of a passive crossover causing an active turn-on pop in the chain is next to ZERO. This has nothing to do with being a paying customer; this has to do with actively choosing ignorance over knowledge. Your shop is, in this case, most likely full of ****. Deal with it.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> You're way past doing your own repairs because we carried on with this thread after you said you'd try to do it this weekend?  I try not to let my actions and decisions be governed by strangers' conversations on the internet, but to each their own.


Good now Focal can either fix their problem or not. Either way they go, I will be good but, now everyone will know what they can expect for service from them.




mikey7182 said:


> I thought TNT installed all your Focal gear, including the gear you bought from Crutchfield?? What are you talking about?


TNT did install all my gear. I am just asking for Car Audio knowledge since everyone assumes that I should already know this stuff.




mikey7182 said:


> That you were not aware of this at the time of purchase is not really anyone's fault but your own. Your claim that "Nowhere on Crutchfield's site did they mention that the line was closeout" is ********. Here is your thread, here on DIYMA, from 2016, inquiring about the $1380 KRX3 special on Crutchfield:
> 
> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hot-deals/267489-focal-k2-power-165-krx3-$1380-crutchfield.html



Post #5 by DDFusion: [/QUOTE]

Show me exactly where that it says, discontinued? It just says they are coming out with an ES!




mikey7182 said:


> What Cobb informed you of is that your shop is most likely lying to you, since the odds of a passive crossover causing an active turn-on pop in the chain is next to ZERO. This has nothing to do with being a paying customer; this has to do with actively choosing ignorance over knowledge. Your shop is, in this case, most likely full of ****. Deal with it.


Still a Focal issue!


KillerBox said:


> 6.) Are the Focal Authorized Dealer continuously trained and physically observed in proper installation procedures? *I doubt it because Orca themselves don’t seem to believe* that their crossovers are causing my problems even though the *Focal Authorized Dealer has said on 4 occasions otherwise.*


----------



## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> Cobb doesn't need to inform me of that I am just a paying customer.


In my opinion, Cobb shouldn't have to worry about it, because the issue most likely is the amplifier. So I would definitely call Arc Audio before you start crapping on Focal, which most likely is not the issue here.

Geebus man...

Post #5 by DDFusion: 

Show me exactly where that it says, discontinued? It just says they are coming out with an ES! 

Closing out means discontinued. When I have closeouts I am phasing out my stock for the new stock to come in. When Pontiac was discontinuing their sale of Firebirds, they had close out specials. Now you are just be argumentative. I have no use for ignorance. Not stupidity. But Ignorance. You refuse to hear the truth, so you are ignorant of it.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQ Audi said:


> In my opinion, Cobb shouldn't have to worry about it, because the issue most likely is the amplifier. So I would definitely call Arc Audio before you start crapping on Focal, which most likely is not the issue here.


I have been told 4 different times otherwise.



KillerBox said:


> 6.) Is the Focal Authorized Dealer continuously trained and physically observed in proper installation procedures? *I doubt it because Orca themselves don’t seem to believe* that their crossovers are causing my problems even though the *Focal Authorized Dealer has said on 4 occasions otherwise.*


----------



## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> I have been told 4 different times otherwise.


By the same dealer that hasn't called Orca to confirm. yes, you are right. You have been told some serious BS..and yet you believe them.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> Post #5 by DDFusion:
> 
> Show me exactly where that it says, discontinued? It just says they are coming out with an ES!
> 
> Still a Focal issue!


He said they are *closing out stock*! What in the hell else could that have meant? Are you seriously that willfully obtuse?! You're like a ****ing child caught by their parents who denies repeatedly that he hit his sister, only to confirm when prodded that "I didn't hit her; I _kicked_ her." 

I'm starting to see why TNT shuffled you off to ORCA. It wasn't the right move on their part, but I can't even imagine you across a products counter from me, if you can't even grasp basic concepts of inference. ****, not even inference! He flat-out said they were closing out the stock! Did you think he meant the stock market? My god, dude.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

SQ Audi said:


> Closing out means discontinued. When I have closeouts I am phasing out my stock for the new stock to come in. When Pontiac was discontinuing their sale of Firebirds, they had close out specials. Now you are just be argumentative. I have no use for ignorance. Not stupidity. But Ignorance. You refuse to hear the truth, so you are ignorant of it.


Don't even bother. Anyone who can't conclude that "this product is cheaper than everywhere else and I just found out that it's because they're closing out stock due to a new product line release, so closing out = discontinued" and then argues the point, should have their driver's license revoked. 

KB- you've been buying car audio for 30 years? So you're at least 45+? How have you managed to live this long, honestly? Do you lick gas pumps because they don't explicitly state not to? I'm trolling hard right now, but I'm partially serious. You're too much, man. Too much.


----------



## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I am right and you can disprove anything that I stated by adding or correcting to the list right above.
> 
> So I will continue saying what I want, when I want and to whoever I want. And your personal insults are not going to stop me.


Stop the bullying.


----------



## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> Don't even bother. Anyone who can't conclude that "this product is cheaper than everywhere else and I just found out that it's because they're closing out stock due to a new product line release, so closing out = discontinued" and then argues the point, should have their driver's license revoked.
> 
> KB- you've been buying car audio for 30 years? So you're at least 45+? How have you managed to live this long, honestly? Do you lick gas pumps because they don't explicitly state not to? I'm trolling hard right now, but I'm partially serious. You're too much, man. Too much.


At this point he is probably some 14 year old troll who doesn't even own a car. I mean why not have a short video of what his amplifiers are doing to his system?


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> He said they are *closing out stock*! What in the hell else could that have meant? Are you seriously that willfully obtuse?! You're like a ****ing child caught by their parents who denies repeatedly that he hit his sister, only to confirm when prodded that "I didn't hit her; I _kicked_ her."
> 
> I'm starting to see why TNT shuffled you off to ORCA. It wasn't the right move on their part, but I can't even imagine you across a products counter from me, if you can't even grasp basic concepts of inference. ****, not even inference! He flat-out said they were closing out the stock! Did you think he meant the stock market? My god, dude.


Even if Crutchfield was closing out stock, that has nothing to do with Orca discontinuing a product. And even then, it was advertised as a "Special Buy" and not "Discontinued". 

So cuss me all you like but, I am not going to cuss you back because that will give the moderators a reason to close down the thread :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

wizzi001 said:


> At this point he is probably some 14 year old troll who doesn't even own a car. I mean why not have a short video of what his amplifiers are doing to his system?


Because Orca either hasn't requested them from their dealer or they have and don't think you are worthy! :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> Don't even bother. Anyone who can't conclude that "this product is cheaper than everywhere else and I just found out that it's because they're closing out stock due to a new product line release, so closing out = discontinued" and then argues the point, should have their driver's license revoked.
> 
> KB- you've been buying car audio for 30 years? So you're at least 45+? How have you managed to live this long, honestly? Do you lick gas pumps because they don't explicitly state not to? I'm trolling hard right now, but I'm partially serious. You're too much, man. Too much.


Thank you but, crap like this is just clouding up the issue. To me it is simple, Focal is either going to fix my Focal crossovers or they are not and I will keep informing people of my story. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

wizzi001 said:


> Stop the bullying.


I haven't bullied anyone here but, they have tried it with me :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> It looks like the Cobbknobblers are up and spewing their trolling again!





KillerBox said:


> It looks like the Cobbknobblers are up and spewing their trolling again!





KillerBox said:


> Focal's service definitely needs improving and I refuse to get on my knees like the Cobbknobblers do.





KillerBox said:


> If this comment is directed at me, I haven't BS on anything and I have communicated more than I ever should have too.
> 
> So enjoy the laughs because when the Cobbslobbers close down this thread to protect their buddy, it will just start over somewhere else.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> Because Orca either hasn't requested them from their dealer or they have and don't think you are worthy! :laugh::laugh::laugh:


I feel like I've wasted all this time and energy and it's gonna get to the end and you come out of the troll closet wearing your helmet. I'll be like a disappointed kid when his parents tell him Jesus and Santa aren't real. 

If you invested 1% of the time you spent typing replies here, in taking a video on the iPhone you've said you're posting from and uploading it, maybe we could all see what the problem is that you're having. 

My guess is, there is no turn-on pop. You're an uneducated kid with a decent sized bank account, who managed to survive deeper into adulthood than the doctors ever thought you would, doesn't understand **** #1 about mobile audio, wants "all his speakers to match" and had a little buyers' remorse after blowing a few Focal speakers and wanted to start fresh. Imagine the days before the internet where I'd have to stop for gas in a town I shouldn't, just to find out people like you exist? :laugh:


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQ Audi said:


> Closing out means discontinued. When I have closeouts I am phasing out my stock for the new stock to come in. When Pontiac was discontinuing their sale of Firebirds, they had close out specials. Now you are just be argumentative. I have no use for ignorance. Not stupidity. But Ignorance. You refuse to hear the truth, so you are ignorant of it.


So you are saying just because Pontiac deliberately false advertised then that give others the right to do it?

In my opinion, one store closing out their stock does not mean the manufacture is discontinuing an item. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> Thank you but, crap like this is just clouding up the issue. To me it is simple, Focal is either going to fix my Focal crossovers or they are not and I will keep informing people of my story. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


Oh they're not going to, because you can't fix something that isn't broken. And you can't determine if something is broken without a proper rule-out diagnosis. 

The guys at TNT sound like they're drinking from the same mercury pond you are.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

rton20s said:


>


That was only after being attacked by the same group. Now I am past trying to convince you of anything. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Focal can either fix their problem or not!


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

https://www.logicalfallacies.info/


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> Oh they're not going to, because you can't fix something that isn't broken. And you can't determine if something is broken without a proper rule-out diagnosis.
> 
> The guys at TNT sound like they're drinking from the same mercury pond you are.


Good and now everyone will know what type of FOCAL's POOR CUSTOMER SUPPORT


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

I am going home for today but, we can continue with this tomorrow.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> I am going home for today but, we can continue with this tomorrow.


It's almost like a crane fell on your head. :laugh:


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

KillerBox said:


> So you are saying just because Pontiac deliberately false advertised then that give others the right to do it?
> 
> In my opinion, one store closing out their stock does not mean the manufacture is discontinuing an item. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


I am done here.

Would you rather be right? Or would you rather be happy. In this situation, you cannot be both. 

enjoy life, however miserable it will be. I doubt you can comprehend this, but you have been called out as to being a liar, with posts that DDaudio and Mikey listed. It has been widely agreed upon that a crossover cannot produce a turn on pop because it cannot produce power. It has been proven by your own admission that TNT didn't call Focal like they said they did. And it is has been proven time and time again in this thread alone that you don't know what the hell you are talking about. The final bit of proof is this...you are acting like an entitled child. I have been in your shoes before. I thought something was wrong and that the installer or the product was the fault, in the end, it was a fuse that the solder had melted from within the connecting cups, and was not visible to the naked eye. It was my own fault for not testing each fuse, instead I trusted my eyes.

Ever beer goggled. You can never trust your eyes fully. In all seriousness. I am done trying to help you. Can you try this, instead of using only 4 channels of a 6 channel amp, can you bridge the back 4 channels to represent only two channels, re-hook it up, and see if your "pop" goes away.

If not, at least THEN...you have tried some troubleshooting and your argument will gain some weight. Not much...but some.

I will leave you with this. I noticed in the last three or four posts, you have ended your post with :laugh::laugh::laugh:

To that I say...Ignorance is bliss.


----------



## Bizarroterl (Aug 5, 2009)

This thread has really lowered my estimation of many on this forum. KB, good luck with you project. As for me, time to unsubscribe.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

RRizz said:


> It is between Him, His Installer, His retailer, and Focal (Orca) IF it turns out to be their issue.


It WAS just between all them until he started posting on a public forum.

The fact that he absolutely REFUSES to follow ANY advice given is what makes people believe he is an absolute dumbass. He could easily unhook the focal speakers and plug ANY speaker into his amp and listen for a turn on pop. He could even do it without making it obvious that he "tampered" with the install.

If there is no pop, then then problem lies within the Focal gear. If there is a pop, and there most likely will be, the the problem lies somewhere else. But he doesn't want to do this basic test because it might shatter his idea that TNT is infallible.



SQ Audi said:


> This is Cobb's first post concerning this issue. The engineer stated what is truth, as the passive crossover cannot produce power, it is like a passive switch in networking talk. It just separates frequencies to the specific drivers. IMHO, this is where this should have stopped. It shouldn't have gone any further.


You are right, and all KB has to do to prove you wrong is unhook his 
Focal gear and plug ANY speakers into the amp and turn the system on. Literally ANY speaker he has laying around that isn't already dead. He can use something from his home theater, a bookshelf speaker, and old raw driver, even an old factory speaker from the car in question. It doesn't even have to be in an enclosure.

But he won't, because he is too scared he was barking up the wrong tree the whole time.


----------



## miniSQ (Aug 4, 2009)

Bizarroterl said:


> This thread has really lowered my estimation of many on this forum. KB, good luck with you project. As for me, time to unsubscribe.


Go back and start from the beginning...everyone (including myself) was on his side and trying to help him, but he turned into a complete JA. Sorry if you were let down, but he brought it on himself.


----------



## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

LumbermanSVO said:


> It WAS just between all them until he started posting on a public forum.
> 
> The fact that he absolutely REFUSES to follow ANY advice given is what makes people believe he is an absolute dumbass. He could easily unhook the focal speakers and plug ANY speaker into his amp and listen for a turn on pop. He could even do it without making it obvious that he "tampered" with the install.
> 
> ...


 At least if your going to quote me, be kind enough not to edit.----------------------------------It is between Him, His Installer, His retailer, and Focal (Orca) IF it turns out to be their issue.
Now I realize that he brought this to an open forum, and is subject to commentary from others (whether they are right or wrong, as well) But some of you guys just keep going, and going, and going like you have a position in all this. -----------


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

SQ Audi said:


> Can you try this, instead of using only 4 channels of a 6 channel amp, can you bridge the back 4 channels to represent only two channels, re-hook it up, and see if your "pop" goes away.


The problem isn't the unused channels on the amp but depending on how he does this there is a chance it will eliminate his problem.




LumbermanSVO said:


> You are right, and all KB has to do to prove you wrong is unhook his
> Focal gear and plug ANY speakers into the amp and turn the system on. Literally ANY speaker he has laying around that isn't already dead. He can use something from his home theater, a bookshelf speaker, and old raw driver, even an old factory speaker from the car in question. It doesn't even have to be in an enclosure.


The pop with these amps isn't there in every situation so it's possible he could hook up several speakers and not have a pop. In the situations that there is a pop it is possible to eliminate it though.


----------



## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

mikey7182 said:


> I feel like I've wasted all this time and energy and it's gonna get to the end and you come out of the troll closet wearing your helmet. I'll be like a disappointed kid when his parents tell him Jesus and Santa aren't real.
> 
> If you invested 1% of the time you spent typing replies here, in taking a video on the iPhone you've said you're posting from and uploading it, maybe we could all see what the problem is that you're having.
> 
> My guess is, there is no turn-on pop. You're an uneducated kid with a decent sized bank account, who managed to survive deeper into adulthood than the doctors ever thought you would, doesn't understand **** #1 about mobile audio, wants "all his speakers to match" and had a little buyers' remorse after blowing a few Focal speakers and wanted to start fresh. Imagine the days before the internet where I'd have to stop for gas in a town I shouldn't, just to find out people like you exist? :laugh:


what exactly is the point of the insults here bro?


----------



## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> what exactly is the point of the insults here bro?


It one thing to decide he is hopeless, but you are right, the insults have gone a little far. This isn't Off Topic. Not sure where the Mods are that are supposed to keep things civil. A couple are active in the thread, yet doing nothing about the insults. Isn't that kinda the point of having mods???

Anyway, I think everyone in this thread is a tad insane. We are all doing the same thing and expecting different results. 

Just leave the thread already.


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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

i myself am truly hoping the op can get his system squared away and continue to stay here


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> i myself am truly hoping the op can get his system squared away and continue to stay here



The op got his answer. KB just chimed in a few posts later.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

KillerBox has TNT wiped their hands with you? They have “ supposedly “ been caught lying to you about calling Orca as well as troubleshooting this problem “ 3 “ times which they “ haven’t”. Why do you believe anything they say? ( going off what you have said) (Shame TNT isn’t here to add their input. )

Also you have proven with your statements that you are unhappy with TNT, you keep making comments alluding to this throughout your posts. 

The Orca engineer also stated TNT assumption regarding passive crossovers is wrong and provided data as to why. Orca & Cobb HAS been trying to HELP you. They really have. There are more variables that need to be accounted for before this prob can be fixed for you! Orca needs YOU/ TNT / or the other Focal shop in Mobile that’s closer to you to HELP them Help you! You have to work together as a TEAM ?

Take the SUV to the other Focal dealer 5 minutes away from you. If they disprove TNT then TNT will have to foot the bill. B/C TNT, from your story, has not properly installed the system you paid them for. ( again sucks TNT isn’t here to defend themselves ) 

Your motive seems to be to out Focal & Orca and bash them. You admitted you don’t have the knowledge to even know if that blame on Orca is correct. That’s why I say go to the closest Focal shop not TNT for a second option since you don’t think Orca is helping.

At the new shop an amp swap should take 10 minutes. If it has the same pop, you have ruled out the Arc amps. If the popping persists then It should take 1-2 Hours to swap speakers and make further diagnosis.

Like ARC Audio said, it could be your grounds, they recommend/ day one frame ground and a ground distribution block for the rest of the system, is this how your system is installed? If you don’t know, go to the Focal shop that is close to you. 

I wish you the best! You have to take the initiative if you want this resolved.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Lou Frasier2 said:


> what exactly is the point of the insults here bro?


Probably a combination of pettiness, frustration, sleeplessness, desperation, and my own amusement. I stopped taking this guy seriously 4 pages ago, and I don’t mean any of my snarky remarks with any malice; just sharpening my sarcasm, which doesn’t always come across as funny. Probably not my finest hour, but oh well. Welcome to the internet. 

I will say that anyone who saw me reference Louis CK twice and is still sad about my “insults” has missed my sense of humor. I won’t defend it, and I won’t apologize for it.  

KB, I don’t actually think you wear a helmet. You may be a willfully ignorant and obstinate, but I would like to think you mean well. I offered help, and then when that failed, I tried to push buttons to see if you were actually just a troll. This thread has become a **** show, which I happily contributed to just as much or more than everyone else. It’s always interesting to me to see where different people draw the line.  There’s definitely nothing else of substance to add here.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Niebur3 said:


> It one thing to decide he is hopeless, but you are right, the insults have gone a little far. This isn't Off Topic. Not sure where the Mods are that are supposed to keep things civil. A couple are active in the thread, yet doing nothing about the insults. Isn't that kinda the point of having mods???
> 
> Anyway, I think everyone in this thread is a tad insane. We are all doing the same thing and expecting different results.
> 
> Just leave the thread already.


You do raise an interesting point, that as an internet society, we have this unspoken agreement that insults are fine so long as they occur in a thread that’s located in a certain section of a forum. ? We can sling mud without judgment, just so long as it isn’t in the General Car Audio section?! ? We are strange creatures.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

mikey7182 said:


> You do raise an interesting point, that as an internet society, we have this unspoken agreement that insults are fine so long as they occur in a thread that’s located in a certain section of a forum. ? We can sling mud without judgment, just so long as it isn’t in the General Car Audio section?! ? We are strange creatures.


While it seems all is subject to interpretation of the Mods, for better or worse there seems to be little or no difference between general forum rules and O.T. rules, with regard to insults, rudeness, coarse language, and the like.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...tes/88391-diyma-general-behavioral-rules.html

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...pdates/84348-diyma-off-topic-forum-rules.html


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

...in any case, I essentially agree:


Niebur3 said:


> It one thing to decide he is hopeless, but you are right, *the insults have gone a little far*. This isn't Off Topic. Not sure where the Mods are that are supposed to keep things civil. A couple are active in the thread, yet doing nothing about the insults. Isn't that kinda the point of having mods???
> 
> Anyway, *I think everyone in this thread is a tad insane. We are all doing the same thing and expecting different results*.
> 
> Just leave the thread already.


...and I sincerely apologize to everyone involved, for my part in all of this nonsense ^^^^^. :blush:


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Since we are going to treat each other with respect and be totally honest, I will be too. You can twist my words but, this is honestly what happened to this point and worded as nicely as I possibly can.

1.) I never wanted the personal insults to start. I think it is bad for this forum, hobby and/or industry. 

2.) I am 100% a retail customer that has loved and has had car stereo systems for 30+ years. I have no connections with anyone in car stereos outside of forums and Facebook. My friends and family don’t even know why I even do it. After this entire ordeal from installation to this thread, I am not sure why I do either. 

3.) When I contacted the dealer about bringing him my SUV back for the 4th time, I sent him a link to this thread because I have nothing to hide and just want them to fix my SUV.

4.) My closest authorized dealer is 30 miles away and they 100% did all my installation. The next dealer is 120 miles away.

5.) I asked my closest dealer to see if they could even get close (I would have accepted anything within a couple of hundred dollars) to the 165KRX3 from Crutchfield. The dealer was not exactly happy that Focal was letting them sell them so cheap and they were not being offered the same deal. I can 100% understand the dealer’s view point on this. They said they understood and if it was their money, they would buy them at Crutchfield too.

6.) My first installation was two 1200.6 amplifiers and I had no turn on pop but, at high volume the amplifiers were going into protection mode. I didn’t know about the high volume protection mode for at least a week after I paid in full because I wouldn’t crank up the stereo until everything was broken in.

7.) After bringing the SUV back to them with this problem, they were having difficulty trying to find the problem. I then found about the low ohm swing on the 165KRX3 here on DIYMA and informed them about it. We then tried to run the 1200.6 in 2 ohm mode but, the 165KRX3 would still send the amplifier into protection mode. Also as stated before, this set of 165KRX3 honestly did not come with extra page added to the manual.

8.) So then I approached the dealer about adding the third BNIB 1200.6 that I had for a spare. So the dealer changed up the amplifier rack and etc. to add the other 1200.6 and they replace the 3” speaker on the 165KRX3 set at no charge because I guess when the amplifier went into protection mode at high volume it was spiked.

9.) At this time, I wasn’t happy about the 165KRX3 low ohm swing either because I wanted to enjoy my stereo and it had spent the better part of 6 months at the stereo shop for initial installation and then back and forth for the low ohm swing problem, diagnosis and fix. Plus I had to buy a fourth 1200.6 to have a spare but, that is not that big of a deal.

10.) After the third 1200.6 amp was added, the turn on pop presented itself. No one told me about it before I arrived to pick up my SUV and I needed the SUV for a trip. So I made an appointment to bring the SUV back to them when I returned from my trip.

11.) The first time in for turn on problem: After a couple of weeks at the shop I needed my SUV again and the turn on pop hadn’t been fixed, so I got the SUV and after this trip made an appointment to return it. I was informed then that they didn’t know what was causing it and they were going to try a time relay and I think they said a diode.

12.) At this time, I got in touch with Arc Audio to find out what they thought that might be causing the turn on pop. Arc sent me the email that I posted on this thread and I emailed it to the dealer and printed out a paper copy for the installer.

13.) I then took the SUV in for second time for the turn on problem: After a couple of weeks, I was frustrated because I bought my SUV and stereo to enjoy. I went to pick it up again and was informed that they had narrowed my problem down something funny is going on with the 165KRX3 passive crossovers. But, I was assured they were talking to Focal rep and they would definitely be able to fix it no matter what.

14.) So after a couple more weeks, I made an appointment and returned. After a couple of weeks, I still had a turn on pop and was informed the problem still was with the 165KRX3 passive crossovers. I was pretty much told that Focal wasn’t interested in this set because they had discontinued it. But if I wanted to buy a new set from the new series, then I probably wouldn’t have the turn on pop problem.

15.) At this point, I felt like I was being taken advantage and just lived with the turn on pop because I try to avoid conflict because I try to be a nice guy and I have a hard time controlling myself in physical confrontations. 

16.) Then this thread popped up and it was a way to voice my frustration and to try to get my problem fixed.

17.) All that I honestly wanted to do was a Focal rep to call the dealer and say “hey buddy let’s get this customer’s SUV fixed and I think this is what we should do”. If the Focal rep wasn’t capable of doing that then, then it would be confirmed to me that Focal really wasn’t interested in this set because they had discontinued it.


So where do we go from here. I will eventually fix it or replace it. I honestly don’t have much free time to do this and that is why I paid someone to install it in the first place. When I fix it, I will inform people of whatever the fix may be even if it is someone else’s fault.


But no matter what is the fix, I still believe 100% that Focal’s entire network needs improvements in customer satisfaction. I don’t care what the industry standard is because I know if it was my business and even if I didn’t think I was at fault. I would have been on the telephone with the dealer the minute that I knew the problem existed. I would have given him step by step instruction of what to check on my equipment and some tips that I might know for other’s equipment. This goes double for a company that sales are based on premium priced products.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Grinder said:


> While it seems all is subject to interpretation of the Mods, for better or worse there seems to be little or no difference between general forum rules and O.T. rules, with regard to insults, rudeness, coarse language, and the like.
> 
> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...tes/88391-diyma-general-behavioral-rules.html
> 
> https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...pdates/84348-diyma-off-topic-forum-rules.html


Yes, the rules are fairly cut and dry, and I imagine at least a few of my posts will disappear (although they were honestly just me being dark intentionally, and I probably forgot my audience and got carried away trying to eek some emotional, human response out of the OP). I was more referring to the general mentality that people have varying levels of tolerance for insults/memes/trolling depending on where those insults are typed and posted.  

KB- your most recent explanation is the most honest or candid thing I’ve read from you, and I for one appreciate it. You’ve kept your cool through this entire thing, almost to a fault, and I respect that. Based on what you wrote, it sounds like TNT (or your interpretation of the experience with them anyway) has been subpar. I don’t think they were honest with you. I hope they troubleshoot things thoroughly and you get your setup up and running the way it is intended to function.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

mikey7182 said:


> KB- your most recent explanation is the most honest or candid thing I’ve read from you, and I for one appreciate it. You’ve kept your cool through this entire thing, almost to a fault, and I respect that. Based on what you wrote, it sounds like TNT (or your interpretation of the experience with them anyway) has been subpar. I don’t think they were honest with you. I hope they troubleshoot things thoroughly and you get your setup up and running the way it is intended to function.


Here Here. KB, I too sincerely hope you get the service you need. 130 miles is not that far to get better service. My installer is 400 miles from me. Good luck in the future.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

SQ Audi said:


> _Hear! Hear!_ KB, I too sincerely hope you get the service you need .... Good luck in the future.


x3

(FIFY )


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## Red Saber (Jul 5, 2018)

Is the shop in Mobile called TNT? If so I talked to them once and didn’t get a good vibe

Never mind. I see it is. Yeah I would go somewhere else. 
Try UAF


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Red Saber said:


> Is the shop in Mobile called TNT? If so I talked to them once and didn’t get a good vibe
> 
> Never mind. I see it is. Yeah I would go somewhere else.
> Try UAF


Yes, that is them. It has always had the same owner, established the mid 1980s and he is a very much a hands on guy. I have dealt with him since the early 1990s.


The top picture here shows the amp rack before we knew about the low ohm swings and just two 1200.6 amps mounted. In my opinion, everything looks nice and tidy.

The bottom picture shows the amp rack after we had to add the 3rd amp. In my opinion, I can visible see their frustration of making the changes to accommodate the low ohm swing of the 165KRX3.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

KillerBox said:


> Yes, that is them. It has always had the same owner, established the mid 1980s and he is a very much a hands on guy. I have dealt with him since the early 1990s.
> 
> 
> *The top picture here shows the amp rack before we knew about the low ohm swings and just two 1200.6 amps mounted. In my opinion, everything looks nice and tidy.
> ...


Sad, really. The difference is like night and day.


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## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

mikey7182 said:


> Yes, the rules are fairly cut and dry, and I imagine at least a few of my posts will disappear (although they were honestly just me being dark intentionally, and I probably forgot my audience and got carried away trying to eek some emotional, human response out of the OP). I was more referring to the general mentality that people have varying levels of tolerance for insults/memes/trolling depending on where those insults are typed and posted.
> 
> KB- your most recent explanation is the most honest or candid thing I’ve read from you, and I for one appreciate it. You’ve kept your cool through this entire thing, almost to a fault, and I respect that. Based on what you wrote, it sounds like TNT (or your interpretation of the experience with them anyway) has been subpar. I don’t think they were honest with you. I hope they troubleshoot things thoroughly and you get your setup up and running the way it is intended to function.


I told him the dealer was crap and he wouldn't listen and just kept on bagging on Focal/orca and never acknowledging that the dealer is indeed ****.


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

wizzi001 said:


> *I told him the dealer was crap* and he wouldn't listen and just kept on bagging on Focal/orca and never acknowledging that the dealer is indeed ****.


I think most of us did, in one way or another. 

Can we move on?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Grinder said:


> I think most of us did, in one way or another.
> 
> Can we move on?


Why didn't I blame the dealer in the beginning of this thread?

I am glad you asked :laugh: 

It is because I think he is frustrated too. I don't know if it is because of the changes he had to make to compensate the low ohm swings on the 165KRX3, tired of seeing my system or with Focal's Network in general (my guesses would be the special prices offered to Crutchfield, finky speakers sets or warranty support).

All I can say is this, I have had him install over 8 systems or alarms for me and my family over the past 25+ years. I have never once had a problem that he didn't fix until this Focal 165KRX3 thing.


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## jrgreene1968 (Jul 7, 2008)

Hopefully they get you fixed up, but I’m still thinking TNT should get most of the blame.

I can see your frustration though. Alpine pissed me off real good a few years ago when I loaded up there update on my headunit and it bricked it, there reply was.. it came with a disclaimer. Needless to say I wanted to scream after my 1200 dollar HU was now a door stop. But in the end, they were correct, it did come with a disclaimer and I eventually got over it.. and like a big dummy, bought another Alpine, lol.. hope you get it straight and get back to jammin


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

After looking at the setup, it is pretty obvious that KB isn't a child. A teen or even a college student wouldn't spend the money for some KX speakers for rear fill. They most likely wouldn't have them. KB, is this a 5.1 setup? Would love to see the rest of the install too.

I don't know what to think about the current situation. It is so convoluted that who knows which way is up and which way is down. I just hope a remedy is available soon.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQ Audi said:


> After looking at the setup, it is pretty obvious that KB isn't a child. A teen or even a college student wouldn't spend the money for some KX speakers for rear fill. They most likely wouldn't have them. KB, is this a 5.1 setup? Would love to see the rest of the install too.
> 
> I don't know what to think about the current situation. It is so convoluted that who knows which way is up and which way is down. I just hope a remedy is available soon.


Thanks SQ Audi and short story about surround sound systems and my age: 

When I was 14 in 1985, I helped my cousin (16) that could & would tear up an anvil install a car stereo. It was loud for the time but, I didn't get into car stereo scene. In case you are wondering what the system was a Sony Cassette, Roadmaster EQ/Booster and two big 3-way Sansui home stereo speaker in their factory cabinets in the back hatch of a Ford Mustang.

When I turned 16, I pieced together a SQ setup of a Nakamichi TD-400, PPI 2075, PPI 2050, Nakamichi speakers front and Coustic DR subwoofers. A simple 2.1 system that sounded very good for the time period and my area. Needless to say, I still felt like I was missing something. After hearing a DJ friend of mine's home system with a reverb, I knew what I was missing.

I immediately purchased a small 9 volt Radio Shack Realistic reverb (with only 4 or 5 adjustments sliders), another PPI 2050 and some rear speakers. The reverb only on the rear speakers and I only used the reverb slightly. I had finally the Live Concert sound that I was looking for. I know this probably makes some people here cringe!


I had this system for a few years, until I heard a Fosgate Gavotte. The Fosgate Gavotte sounded better than my Reverb system. So I sold that car, bought a 1989 Ford Probe that I still own. And continued my journey into trying to get live sound from a car stereo. So every system that I have owned since the early 1990s has been a 5.1 or more.


This system in my SUV is a Logic7 - 7.2 system. It sounds very good with studio recorded music but, still sounds similar to 2.1 system. With a well recorded Live Concert Album, it makes me forget that I am in vehicle and it makes me feel like I have the perfect seats at a Concert.

Others hear will say something about how do you keep tonal accuracy & etc? 
Most headphones are accurate but, at least to me I know that something is missing. I would rather give up some accuracy to gain soundstage width and ambiance depth. 

I will probably never own an aftermarket stereo that is not a 5.1 system or better. And to be honest the KX speakers are overkill for the surround sound speakers because all they do is add ambiance and a little width. But I plan on keeping this vehicle for a long time, so I didn't want to second guess my rear speakers in the future and then want to start upgrading equipment. 


Btw in case anyone is wondering, my family wasn't home last night so I started piddling with my turn on pop in the dark until it started raining. The turn on pop is coming from the 165KRX3 3" and the tweeters. I had to put my ear up the 6.5" speakers to hear the slightest pop from them. I wired another set of 4 ohm speakers to the unused amplifier channels (channels 3 & 4) on that amp, so there were no unused channels and no change in the turn on pop.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Some pictures of the install


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

A few more


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## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Nice!!!

...bummer about that slapdash wiring though.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> Btw in case anyone is wondering, my family wasn't home last night so I started piddling with my turn on pop in the dark until it started raining. The turn on pop is coming from the 165KRX3 3" and the tweeters. I had to put my ear up the 6.5" speakers to hear the slightest pop from them. I wired another set of 4 ohm speakers to the unused amplifier channels (channels 3 & 4) on that amp, so there were no unused channels and no change in the turn on pop.


Bridge the channels feeding the 3" and tweeters.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

If there is a shop 120 miles away, try to plan a day trip for a second opinion. ( I know it’s sucks ) 

Yes TNT has, as this issue prolongs, probably gotten very frustrated. I imagine they aren’t being paid for troubleshooting. Still it’s not your fault, and their action towards you hasn’t been the best from what you have described. 

KB, have you paid anything the third and fourth time to TNT? This is probably why it’s not being resolved, b/c if it is the Arc audio amps and TNT isn’t an Arc Audio dealer then they have no one to bill for all the labor and warranty. If they persist it is the Focal, TNT can. That’s my half ass guess lol 

I know this is an extreme rare case but I kind of see why some dealers/ installers want you to purchase the gear thru them. I understand how a biz needs to protect itself as well as servicing the customer correctly. 

Good luck KB, sending positive vibes your way!


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Bridge the channels feeding the 3" and tweeters.


I will try this weekend. Even though I don't think it will help because the other set of speakers that I wired up last night on channels 3 & 4 had no turn on pop.

Just so I am being clear:
Channels 1 & 2 = Focal 165KRX3's 3" and tweeters - Loud Turn On Pop in both of the 3" and tweeters
Channels 3 & 4 = Coustic DR-304's - No Turn On Pop
Channels 5 & 6 = Focal 165KRX3 6.5" - Almost no Turn On Pop

Unplugged the Channels 1 & 2 so that Focal's 3" and tweeters were completely disconnected = No Turn On Pop with Coustic or 6.5"


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

KillerBox said:


> I will try this weekend. Even though I don't think it will help because the other set of speakers that I wired up last night on channels 3 & 4 had no turn on pop.
> 
> Just so I am being clear:
> Channels 1 & 2 = Focal 165KRX3's 3" and tweeters - Loud Turn On Pop in both of the 3" and tweeters
> ...


Again, unused channels aren’t the problem. The pop goes away when bridging. Stop trying to think of reasons it won’t work and try it.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Glad to see some troubleshooting occurring! Hoping you get this resolved soon.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Again, unused channels aren’t the problem. The pop goes away when bridging. Stop trying to think of reasons it won’t work and try it.


I have spent today trying to troubleshoot my 165KRX3 turn on pop problems.

I bridged the 165KRX3 - 3” & tweeter on left side to channels 1 & 2. Channels 3 & 4 on the right side 3” & tweeter. It made the turn on louder. It also seemed to increase the turn on pop in the 6.5” speakers & neither they or their gains were not touched.

So then I replaced the 165KRX3 passive crossovers with my spare pair. Turn on pop remained but, the turn on pop might have been a tad quieter but, it is hard to tell.

So then I got the idea of leaving the 3” & tweeters on old set of passive crossovers & the 6.5” on the other new set of passive crossovers & the turn on pop pretty much went away! You have to hold your ear up to the speakers to hear anything.

Then I disconnected the passive crossovers from the 6.5” speakers & turn on pop was just about like it was when I had all 4 passive crossovers hooked up. But, the 6.5” does not seem to sound as good.

Any suggestions besides leaving all 4 passive crossovers hooked up because they are very big & I don’t have room for 4 of them?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

What happens if you disconnect channels 5 and 6 with 1+2 and 3+4 bridged to the 3's and tweeters? What if you connect the 3's and tweeters to channels 5+6 or bridge a single 3 and tweeter on 5+6? What happens if you unplug the speakers and then plug them back in after the amp has powered up?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> What happens if you disconnect channels 5 and 6 with 1+2 and 3+4 bridged to the 3's and tweeters?


If I leave the 6.5” disconnected, then virtually no turn on pop with the 3” & tweeters.

It is only when the 6.5” & 3” are bi-amped on the same passive crossover then the turn on pop happens.

I hope I am making sense


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

It looks like you have a couple spare channels on one of your other amps, what happens if you hook up the 6.5's to that amp and leave the 3 and tweeters on the amp they're already on?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> It looks like you have a couple spare channels on one of your other amps, what happens if you hook up the 6.5's to that amp and leave the 3 and tweeters on the amp they're already on?


I haven’t tried that. So I will give it a try.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

There should be a combination you can find of where each speaker is hooked up and whether or not the channels are bridged that works. In my testing the pop was much quieter on 5+6 than on 1-4. If all else fails try plugging in the 6.5's after the amp has turned on.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

I wanted to tell you (if you were waiting around for results) that I ran into another problem.

I don’t know what type of RCAs cords these are going into the Arc amps but, you never have to worry about one vibrating out! They are the tightest RCAs plugs that I have ever seen. 

I was having to use a set needle nose pliers to remove them. Needless to say I accidentally snagged a RCA cord because the pliers slipped & now my son is gone to get me a soldering iron so I can reconnect the cord.

So we are down for a little while.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

I wouldn't worry about swapping the rca cables around yet. I'd swap the speaker wires around until you find a combination that eliminates the pop and then move the rca's to the appropriate inputs after.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> There should be a combination you can find of where each speaker is hooked up and whether or not the channels are bridged that works. In my testing the pop was much quieter on 5+6 than on 1-4. If all else fails try plugging in the 6.5's after the amp has turned on.


I had on set of 3” & tweeters bridged on Channel 1+2. The other side 3” & tweeters on Channel 3+4. 

Nothing in Channels 5 & 6 at amp start up and no turn on pop. As soon as I connected the 6.5”to channels to 5 & 6 and after the amp was already turned on, a turn on pop occurred in the 3” and tweeters. When the pop occurred the 3” and tweeters were already playing and delaying plugging up the 6.5” had no effect. 



ca90ss said:


> It looks like you have a couple spare channels on one of your other amps, what happens if you hook up the 6.5's to that amp and leave the 3 and tweeters on the amp they're already on?


This is when it got interesting! I left the 3” & tweeters on the bridged channels 1+2 & 3+4 on amp #1. I then hooked up the 6.5” on channels 3 & 4 on amp #2. The best way, I can describe it as a double turn on pop (and it sounded like it was in stereo if that is possible). It was only like a ¼ second delay in the pops.

I then left the 3” & tweeters on the bridged channels 1+2 & 3+4 on amp #1. I then hooked up the 6.5” on bridged channels 1+2 & 3 + 4 on amp #2. When I did this, the turn on pop was louder than it has ever been.



ca90ss said:


> I wouldn't worry about swapping the rca cables around yet. I'd swap the speaker wires around until you find a combination that eliminates the pop and then move the rca's to the appropriate inputs after.


Ok, I took your advice after my RCA plug problem. I ended up disconnecting the RCAs from the JBL MS8 so that should take the MS-8 and Kenwood 9903s from the signal path. But that did not have any effect on the turn on pop.

Hopefully I did all your suggestions. Any other ideas because I am ready to throw in the towel.


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## SQ Audi (Dec 21, 2010)

Man KB, I hate this crap for you. Sounds like you are getting things done though. Don't give up the fight though.

Thank you ca90ss for helping him.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

SQ Audi said:


> Man KB, I hate this crap for you. Sounds like you are getting things done though. Don't give up the fight though.
> 
> Thank you ca90ss for helping him.


I would like to say a big Thank you to ca90ss!

Thank you too SQ Audi and like I told my son when the RCA plug pulled out that this is kinda stuff always happens to me.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Did you try the 6.5"s alone on their own amp, either bridged or on channels 5+6 and then the 3 and tweeters on the spare channels on the other amp?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Did you try the 6.5"s alone on their own amp, either bridged or on channels 5+6 and then the 3 and tweeters on the spare channels on the other amp?


Yes sir, I stated it above but, I wasn't clear.


This is when it got interesting! I left the 3” & tweeters on the bridged channels 1+2 & 3+4 on *amp #1*. I then hooked up the 6.5” on channels 3 & 4 on *amp #2*. The best way, I can describe it as a double turn on pop (and it sounded like it was in stereo if that is possible). It was only like a ¼ second delay in the pops.

I then left the 3” & tweeters on the bridged channels 1+2 & 3+4 on *amp #1*. I then hooked up the 6.5” on bridged channels 1+2 & 3 + 4 on *amp #2*. When I did this, the turn on pop was louder than it has ever been.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Now I can see why the Focal Dealer says the problem is the 165KRX3 crossovers. 

I am going to hook everything back up tonight so that I can drive my SUV unless anyone else has another suggestion?


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## jrgreene1968 (Jul 7, 2008)

Can you go active? I ran those speakers for awhile and never had the pop, but mine were active


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

KillerBox said:


> Now I can see why the Focal Dealer says the problem is the 165KRX3 crossovers.
> 
> I am going to hook everything back up tonight so that I can drive my SUV unless anyone else has another suggestion?


Have you tried removing the 3” speaker completely? Can you call Arc Audio and direct them to the this thread so they can see what you have done & possibly help a loyal heavily invested customer?

Do you have other any other amps to try at all? If not can you go to the other focal dealer and try a new amp? Have you called the other focal dealer & discussed your issue for a 2nd/ 3rd opinion? Maybe they have a fix? 

I think you already tried your other backup focal speakers with current crossovers, same pop? Did you try backup focal and backup x over and got same pop? 

I would take out whatever is causing the pop ( focal equipment, maybe arc amps) and get you a nice refund from Crutchfield on them & get something new. Send back the problems sets and x overs only. Get the new focal with the refund or try Audiofrog / Audible Physics/ Hybrid Audio / Morel/ if you don’t mind mix and match system! 

Again I wish you the best and am sorry you had to go thru this when just trying to enjoy car audio.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

jrgreene1968 said:


> Can you go active? I ran those speakers for awhile and never had the pop, but mine were active


He runs a 7.1 surround system I believe so he would need an Aerospace 8 to 12 / top of the line helix or bit one HD or equivalent with lots of outs and processing for center channel and rear fill.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Did you try leaving the 6.5 plugged in and then wait until the amp is on before connecting the 3 and tweeters? It seems that everything that worked with mine isn’t working on yours. If I had the same set of speakers to test with I could probably find a fix but when I was at the local dealer he didn’t have any on hand that I could borrow. So at this point it looks like running the 6.5’s active using the amps crossover, trying a different amp or finding a place to hide your spare crossovers so you can hook the 6.5s up to their own crossover are your best options.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ca90ss said:


> Did you try leaving the 6.5 plugged in and then wait until the amp is on before connecting the 3 and tweeters? It seems that everything that worked with mine isn’t working on yours.


I tried this last night and the turn on pop was quieter.

I am not an expert (heck I am not even a good amateur). My guess is the something in the passive crossovers is letting voltage back-feed to the different set of amplifier channels. And the amplifier different channels turn on at different times (even if it is just a few milliseconds difference)

As we discussed before, the turn on pop only appears when you are using the passive crossovers that have the modified bi-amp configuration.


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## ChaseUTB (Mar 28, 2018)

Hey KB hope you are up and running or troubleshooting and still making progress! Best of luck to you Sir!


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ChaseUTB said:


> Hey KB hope you are up and running or troubleshooting and still making progress! Best of luck to you Sir!


Thanks ChaseUTB! 

It is definitely the Focal's 165KRX3 passive crossovers causing it and Focal isn't interested because they have moved on to their newer products (my speakers are still under warranty). 

So I am living with the problem and I am still not happy with Focal's (or Orca's) response to my problem.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Just a FYI, I contacted Focal again weeks ago and still no response from them. So I just sent another email.


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## audiocholic (Dec 5, 2016)

as the thread starter I want to point out the following:



1) my complaint was directly to Focal as in Focal France not Orca the US distributor


2) I also was unhappy with Woofersets approach


3) I always recieved very detailed,helpfull and most importly sincere responses to even private messages from Orca staff even though it was very clear for them that there wouldnt be any financial benefit for them as Iam abroad.





I'am terribly sorry that within the thread some of the responses hold Orca in question,
I would without a doubt purchase from them and mostly choose them over anyone else if I were in the U.S



seriously regretful of the thread and cheers to Orca's team members as 2 of the contacts I know turned out to be sincere gentlemen,something very hard to find these days..


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

audiocholic said:


> as the thread starter I want to point out the following:
> 
> 
> 1) my complaint was directly to Focal as in Focal France not Orca the US distributor
> ...


I am glad Orca got you taken care of! 

As far as me, Orca didn't do anything for me other than try to deign any responsibility and waste my time. 

My system is no better off today than before I took it to the Focal Dealer 4 times, having to bum rides for over 10 days, hours of typing on this thread, emails and to many hours of trying to troubleshoot it myself. To come to the same conclusion that the Focal dealer came up with that *Focal's Passive Network is causing my problem and Focal doesn't want to do anything about it.*

So in conclusion if this is the best they can do, then others need to know and I wished I had never bought a Focal product!


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Focal's Customer Support still needs improvements


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

My opinion on Focal’s Customer Support is still the same


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

Good to know....how long you gonna milk this cow?


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Good to know....how long you gonna milk this cow?


At least as long as I have a valid warranty. Thanks for asking


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

KillerBox said:


> I have communicated with the dealer too much over this past year. 4 different occasions the dealer has said it is Focal's passive crossovers causing my problems.
> 
> I don't need a 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th occasion. So at this point, Focal can either step in and do something or others will know my story and that they are unwilling or incapable of doing anything.


Another week has gone by and Focal still hasn't done anything!


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Definition of Insanity "Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

JayinMI said:


> Definition of Insanity "Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."


Obviously Focal doesn’t care & I have nothing left to lose.

Others can judge for themselves. Thanks for your input though.


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## jae35 (Apr 2, 2018)

Jumping into the fire here but thought i'd ask the question lol...I have a damaged krx3 6.5 woofer...anyone have any advice on getting it repaired or options one might have? Having a hell of a time trying to find a replacement.


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## GEM592 (Jun 19, 2015)

jae35 said:


> Jumping into the fire here but thought i'd ask the question lol...I have a damaged krx3 6.5 woofer...anyone have any advice on getting it repaired or options one might have? Having a hell of a time trying to find a replacement.


I actually think the last of those have been sold pretty much. For the last couple of years they have been clearing out.

I am all ears regarding repair options, but focal doesn't do recones (you are mainly paying for the cone and coil when you buy the speaker anyhow) and I think you probably have a handsome yellow-coned doorstop.


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## rockytophigh (Apr 16, 2008)

I'll jump in here and give my .02. As someone who owns Brax, Audio Development, Abyss, etc. and a **** ton of Soundstream....I'll never buy a Focal product based on this thread. It would have taken a simple speaker swap to diagnose the issue within network but they couldn't pull that off. This dude has spent a metric ****ton of money and I'm 100% behind him. Get with your damn dealer and make this right. Support your clients. It's a known issue...fix it.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)




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## Lou Frasier2 (Jul 17, 2012)

apparently people are so bored they have to bring up old threads


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## MikeS (May 23, 2015)

jae35 said:


> Jumping into the fire here but thought i'd ask the question lol...I have a damaged krx3 6.5 woofer...anyone have any advice on getting it repaired or options one might have? Having a hell of a time trying to find a replacement.


This one? https://www.ebay.de/itm/Fokale-K2-P...m-Ersatz-Set-KRX3-MADE-IN-FRANCE/302962269989

Quite pricey though.


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## GEM592 (Jun 19, 2015)

MikeS said:


> This one? https://www.ebay.de/itm/Fokale-K2-P...m-Ersatz-Set-KRX3-MADE-IN-FRANCE/302962269989
> 
> Quite pricey though.


For a while that dealer was quite cheap on that exact driver, and many other similar ones from the k2 options. Not anymore lol.


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## wizzi001 (Apr 29, 2011)

rockytophigh said:


> I'll jump in here and give my .02. As someone who owns Brax, Audio Development, Abyss, etc. and a **** ton of Soundstream....I'll never buy a Focal product based on this thread. It would have taken a simple speaker swap to diagnose the issue within network but they couldn't pull that off. This dude has spent a metric ****ton of money and I'm 100% behind him. Get with your damn dealer and make this right. Support your clients. It's a known issue...fix it.


Dude bought speakers on clearance from Crutchfield. Wanted the installerand focal to eat the costs of all the troubleshooting, took his time actually contacting people if he ever did reach out, and never contacted Crutchfield for warranty service. Everyone involved probably has equal fault in this thread hijack.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

wizzi001 said:


> Dude bought speakers on clearance from Crutchfield. Wanted the installerand focal to eat the costs of all the troubleshooting, took his time actually contacting people if he ever did reach out, and never contacted Crutchfield for warranty service. Everyone involved probably has equal fault in this thread hijack.


The “dude” bought the K2 speakers from Crutchfield because they were a special buy and NOT presented as a clearance item. My dealer told me that he would buy them from Crutchfield too because they were selling them cheaper than he could get them.

I bought the other 3 sets of Focal ES speakers from the dealer because I found out that Focal had released a newer speaker.

I took my SUV back 4 different times to the Focal dealer that installed all my equipment including the Focal speakers that I bought from Crutchfield.

Needless to say, the turn on pop has been verified to be caused by the modification that Orca made to the Focal crossovers. Orca told the dealer that they were not going to fix their known problem because it only happened to a small number of the crossovers and they were the older models.


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## MikeS (May 23, 2015)

Why not take out the focal crossovers and run the set active with the amplifier crossovers as it should be capable?


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

MikeS said:


> Why not take out the focal crossovers and run the set active with the amplifier crossovers as it should be capable?


Don't go there (he has been told this numerous times). He just wants to ***** at this point, not actually solve anything.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> Don't go there (he has been told this numerous times). He just wants to ***** at this point, not actually solve anything.


Why do you defend Focal & Orca? I didn’t design & sell a crappy crossover, Focal-Orca did!

As far a running active, my system is a Logic7 system with 18 speakers plus 2 subs. I don’t want to increase my tuning hassles because of Focal’s crappy crossovers. If I wanted to do that I would have bought raw drivers & saved hundreds of dollars. 

The main reason to buy a complete set of speakers is they should have all the problems worked out.


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## Niebur3 (Jul 11, 2008)

KillerBox said:


> Why do you defend Focal & Orca? I didn’t design & sell a crappy crossover, Focal-Orca did!
> 
> As far a running active, my system is a Logic7 system with 18 speakers plus 2 subs. I don’t want to increase my tuning hassles because of Focal’s crappy crossovers. If I wanted to do that I would have bought raw drivers & saved hundreds of dollars.
> 
> The main reason to buy a complete set of speakers is they should have all the problems worked out.


I'm not defending them. I never liked or sold their product. 

But enough is enough.....go on with your life. These are just speakers. Just car audio. I know you feel you are wronged beyond belief, but at some point you need to spend your energy elsewhere. You act like this is the worst thing in your life; if that is the case, you are an extremely lucky person.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Niebur3 said:


> I'm not defending them. I never liked or sold their product.
> 
> But enough is enough.....go on with your life. These are just speakers. Just car audio. I know you feel you are wronged beyond belief, but at some point you need to spend your energy elsewhere. You act like this is the worst thing in your life; if that is the case, you are an extremely lucky person.


I wished someone would have warned me of their customer service before I spent over $6,000.00 just in Focal speakers (not including installation). So I will continue to inform until Focal or Orca makes it right.


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