# 2010 MX-5 / Miata Build



## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Today I picked up my new car. It looks great and I wouldn't be surprised to learn had it been garaged it's whole life. Everything at the dealer went super smooth, I was in and out in about 90 minutes, including the test drive. As soon as I let the clutch out I knew I was right in wanting one of these cars. What a wonderful piece of machinery to drive! 

On the way home I plugged in my phone and turned on the stereo. At first I was like, "Ok, I can deal with this." It wasn't fantastic sounding, but wasn't absolute ****. Then a song with a little bit of bass came on, and at even a moderate volume, it didn't take much for everything to fall apart. The bass pulled enough power to destroy everything else. 

I was going to leave it alone for awhile, but it's too terrible to do that. I don't want to get all crazy with it, mostly just drop in stuff. Lucky for me, it's not a Bose system, so it should be fairly easy to work on. 

I have a bunch of gear laying around. Throwing my 800PRS in is a no-brainer. Perhaps running it in network mode off the internal amp is all I'll need to hold me over for awhile. If I need more power, I can easily add an amp.

There is pretty much no room for subs. Some people have put a single 8 in the passenger foots well, but I'm not looking to lose any passenger space. Like the rest of the car, the trunk is tiny. Even worse, it's pretty much sealed off from the rest of the car, so good luck getting any bass into the passenger area. That pretty much leaves sacrificing the storage bins behind the seats. There is a shop in Florida that made a box for 2 8's that went in the soft top storage area, and the top was still able to fully fold up, so that's an idea.

For the rest of the speakers, I have to mock it up, but it looks like horns will fit. The doors should fit 8's pretty easily. Perhaps something like the Silver Flutes could play from 50-ish all the way up to the horns and I could go without subs. I'm not looking for crazy loud, so that could work and it would be awfully nice to only have one amp to hide.

Any thoughts or suggestions?


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

It didn't take long to start ordering parts:

Metra Dash Kit
Metra Harness
Metra ASWC-1 Steering Wheel control adaptor
Pro-Clip Phone Mount
1 Foot long HDMI Cable
Used Steering Wheel
New Brake Switch

So, a few items need to be explained. I purposely got a no-option car because I'm just not a fan how hard it can be to replace failing electronic bits when a car gets old. The other problem is with they way the factory bundles options. Check one box to get a feature you want, and suddenly you wind up with a feature you don't want, and I don't want nanny features, like traction/stability control. So in my case, I looked for a car with as few options as I could find.

One feature I did want is cruise control. I did the research, and cruise control was a $500 option when the car was new. A 2009-1025 MX-5 has a Dive By Wire throttle body, all the wiring for cruise control, and every ECU is already programmed for Cruise Control. So to add Cruise Control, all you have to do is remove the blank trim pieces from the steering wheel and replace them with the trim pieces with switches, getting a used steering wheel is the easiest way to get the switches. I found one on Ebay for $50. The only other difference is the brake switch. The car with factory Cruise have a 4-pin switch, two high current for the brake lights, and two low current for the Cruise. The non-Cruise cars have a 2-pin switch. A new 4-pin switch is less than $20 and drops right in.

The Cruise switches also come with radio controls, so I got the adaptor to make them control the 800PRS. The only catch is, the Metra wiring harness doesn't come with a pin to connect the steering wheel controls, so I had to order a second harness so I have the extra pin I need.

I ordered the iPhone mount, but do really was to plug in two cables every time I get in the car, so I figured I could just use a Lightning to HDMI adaptor and Audio de-embedder that I have on the shelf. Then I can plug into the AUX in on the 800PRS. Of course, I then started wondering about the quality of the DAC in the $15 de-embedder when I realized I have a REALLY good DAC in the APL1 I'm currently not using. 

So the plan is to go from the iPhone, to HIDMI, to digital coax into the APL1 and analog out into the 800PRS. It should be fun to see how it all works out.


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## bullyx2 (Jun 27, 2007)

LumbermanSVO said:


> Today I picked up my new car. It looks great and I wouldn't be surprised to learn had it been garaged it's whole life. Everything at the dealer went super smooth, I was in and out in about 90 minutes, including the test drive. As soon as I let the clutch out I knew I was right in wanting one of these cars. What a wonderful piece of machinery to drive!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Congrats man. You're going to love it. I have 3 cars, the other 2 being faster and more comfortable than my 06 Miata, but I still drive that car every day the weather permits. I think my car is the one you're referring to when you mentioned the shop in Florida. Five and a half years later and it's still sounds great. I am considering replacing the subs with some Type R's if they'll physically fit but honestly not needed. 

http://www.soundwavesoftampa.com/photo_gallery.html?Cat=8&SCat=29


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

bullyx2 said:


> Congrats man. You're going to love it. I have 3 cars, the other 2 being faster and more comfortable than my 06 Miata, but I still drive that car every day the weather permits. I think my car is the one you're referring to when you mentioned the shop in Florida. Five and a half years later and it's still sounds great. I am considering replacing the subs with some Type R's if they'll physically fit but honestly not needed.
> 
> Soundwaves of Tampa, Florida (813) 849-1104 - Photo Gallery
> 
> ...


Thanks! Yep, it's your box I saw. I already contacted the shop about building a duplicate box, but they are only interested if I bring my car to them, bummer.


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## grinkeeper (Jun 26, 2015)

this is interesting I am excited for the updates


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I mocked up my current CD2 Comps on the big bodies today. The driver side almost fits and wouldn't need much work. The passenger side isn't even close. It's funny how big they look compared to the car.



















I've contacted Eric to see if he can make a straight entry body that might work. Even if he can, the driver needs to be less than 2.75 inches deep to fit between the blower motor and sheet metal.

On the plus side, all my wiring showed up and I can get to sorting that out. Also, my phone mount showed up:


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I talked to Eric today, and it looks like the CD2 Mini body is the way to go, so I'll be buying a set of those with his current drivers.

A bunch of stuff arrived today, so I got to work, but not before grabbing this picture and over editing it  :










I'm not sure if the Miata makes the Bronco look big, or if the Bronco makes the Miata look small. 

The 800PRS mounted in the dash kit:










Below it is a Voltage Gauge, USB charging ports and a 12V power outlet. The 12V power outlet will get constant power so that when I park for long periods of time I can throw one of my solar panels on the dash to maintain the battery.










I made up the little textured ABS piece and used CA glue to mount it to the dash kit. I haven't used CA glue before, damn that stuff is impressive!

After getting the physical fit down, I fired up the soldering iron:










Here we have the 800PRS, APL1, Steering wheel control interface, HDMI audio de-embedder and Lightning to HDMI dongle. I also have an extra 12V power outlet that has a Scosche dual USB plug in it, both ports are high current. One port to charge my phone, the other is to power the HDMI audio de-embedder.

And last, I reclaimed some old RCA connectors off of some older custom cables and made some new ones for this project. One is the digital for into the APL1, and the other two are for analog out the the APL1 and into the 800PRS.










Tomorrow my new steering wheel and brake switch should arrive. It should be a big day for the new ride.


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

LumbermanSVO said:


> I'm not sure if the Miata makes the Bronco look big, or if the Bronco makes the Miata look small.


Yes.


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## few35t (Dec 10, 2014)

Good stuff!


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Lets start with a look at the factory steering wheel and radio:










The first thing I did was install the cruise control components. On the left is the non-cruise brake switch, and on the right is the cruise switch. If you con't mind laying with your back over the door sill, you can swap these parts without tools. All 2009-2015 cars have the same plugs and wiring, so the new switch plugs right in.










Next up is the steering wheel. I started by removing the stock wheel:










That is pretty straight forward. Next I needed to connect the horn to the new wheel, the plugs are different. I dipped into my weatherpack kit and used a single pin connector:










Next is to torque down the new wheel and plug in the wiring. The plug you need is already installed and has all the proper wiring.










Install the airbag/horn assembly and you are set. A quick test drive proved that the cruise and radio controls work! It took less than an hour, including test drive.

Next up is the radio. I spent an absurd amount of time trying to figure out where to stuff the APL1, I'm not used to having so little extra space. I wound up stuffing it under the carpet on the passenger side of the transmission tunnel. I hope it doesn't get too hot! In this pic you can just barely see the RCA connectors facing up, and the HDMI audio de-embedder on top of the transmission tunnel:










I was able to stuff the bulk of the new wiring harness in a hole between the center stack and glove box then pop the head unit in place.










Before buttoning everything up I tested it. The steering wheel controls worked right away, the gauges and power ports all work right. But the left door wasn't making any sound, grrr. I spent way too long poking around trying to find the problem only to eventually find that it was a pin on the Metra harness that was in the wrong hole. I fixed that and was good to go!

With that fixed I buttoned it up, tested everything again only to find that I had forgotten to plug the HVAC controls back in. I was chasing the sun at this point but took it apart again and putting it back together and I was good to go! Here is a crappy shot of it all lit up:









I'll get a better shot tomorrow. And yes, I put the shift knob back on.

I was lucky that the voltage gauge matched the dash lighting perfectly, now I just need to figure out how to change the head unit color to match. Maybe if I call ErinH over to this thread he might have some advice, anyone else know how to do this?



ErinH said:


> ...


Without any tuning at all, just a 6db high pass at 50hz it already sounds MUCH better than the factory radio, especially when turning it up. My only problem is that the APL1 is clipping the inputs on the 800PRS on some songs. I'll spend some time with REW and APL Workshop tomorrow to see what kind of tune I can get out of the stock speaker setup.

Somehow while climbing around in the car I managed to shatter my phone screen while it was in my pocket. I ordered a new screen from ifixit.com and should have it all fixed up on Tuesday. I'm glad it didn't happen while I was on the road! Unfortunately, that just took up a bunch of money I could have used on the new horns. 

I'm only home for one more week before the golf season picks back up, and it starts with a complex show that I need to spend a few days next week prepping. I won't have more than a couple days off until March, I guess that gives me plenty of time to figure out what I'll do with the doors


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I finally got some time to tune with the APL1:Long Post

The difference is quite amazing! I've got a lot to learn still, but I'm very impressed so far! Some door treatments, better speakers and a bit of extra power should be fun!  :laugh:


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## forty5cal1911 (Sep 11, 2006)

Off to a good start Lumberman. Looking good! Been following the APL thread as well and will be interested to hear your further results. Sounds like you're already seeing some major impact even with the factory oem drivers.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I got home from my first tournament of the year at 3am yesterday, 11 more to go this year!

Today I took a 10mm, 12mm, and 13mm wrench out the the car and adjusted the clutch. It was driving me nuts that it had to be almost at the floor to disengage. I backed the upper stop all the way in, then threaded the master cylinder rod out until I just barely had play in it.

I took the car out for a spin, immediately I was able to back the seat up several notches, making it MUCH more comfortable. Even better is I don;t have to push the clutch nearly as far to change gears! It's made a HUGE difference in shifting, now it's a thoughtless task, and I can shift much quicker!

I then spent some time just driving around with the top down. It's a sunny and chilly day, great for a drive!


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Just after posting that I got off my bum and did some work. I decided that instead of running my IDQ8's (last of the original run) in Ol Smokey, It would be best to use them in the Miata, and then use something else in Ol Smokey. 

So I started with the driver door. After looking at how the wiring was run, I figured it might be easiest to just unplug the wires from the door jamb, then remove the plastic inner door panel with all the wires still attached. This turned out to be a stupid move, getting that plug out is a wild pain in the ass. But to make it worse, getting it back in place, and getting the rubber boot back on is just a terrible task. I wound up removing the whole frickin door so I could do it! Just stupid!

After getting everything back to normal, I removed the plastic inner panel. I brought it in and took the dremel to it, First I had to remove the tabs that (I'm guessing) align the Bose 8's:










Then I cut along the lines for the Bose 8's and mounted the IDQ:










Next up I tried to bolt them back in, but it turns out the IDQ's are too deep. Some time ago I had started making HDPE mounting rings for the IDQ's so I just had to finish them. They turned out looking like crap, but they do the job. Here is one mounted up:










After getting the pair mounted up, I had a listen. They sound good, definitely more low end than the factory speakers, but also a bit of a drop in efficiency. Door rattles will be a problem once I give them some real power. 

Tomorrow I'll retune with the APL and have another listen.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I did a couple quick tunes with the APL stuff today, one for the top up, and one for the top down. Here are a couple graphs, the green line is the response, the other is the target.

Top and windows up frequency response:









Top and windows down frequency response:









I'm not sure what is going on at the very top end, but I'm not too worried because I'll be replacing those drivers and going full active when I get home from my next trip. The left tweeter does sound a bit strained at times, so it's a good thing it'll be unplugged soon.

Top and windows up TDA:









Top and windows down TDA:









Here you can REALLY see the effects of reflection in the car! There is quite a bit of difference between the top up and down.

I leave for a long work trip on Tuesday, when I get back I'll have my new horns to install and will switch the 800PRS over to Network Mode. I'll also have the time to install an amp. Then I'll actually be able to dial in TA, set the levels properly and so on. I should be mostly done with the audio stuff on this car and turn my attention back to Ol Smokey.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Today I did something I haven't done in ages, a wash, claybar, and wax. All the cars I've had for the last 15 years had paint that was too far gone to really worry about it. Thank goodness it's a small car!

Also, my new wiper switch showed up, this is the stock one:









And the new one:









For some reason the Miata didn't come with variable intermittent wipers. However, the RX8 did have the option and the switch is compatible with the Miata, no other changes need to be made to get this option functioning. It was $35, including shipping, and took less than 10 minutes to swap out.


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## deefIV (Aug 9, 2016)

Are you headed to Phoenix for the open?


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm going to Florida for Alianz and Honda, then I'm off to San Diego for Kia and Hawaii for Lotte. I was just in La Quinta for Career Builder and spent a day at Pebble Beach.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

I missed that!
You're sure about your graph top up/down, they're not inversed?
Strange that you have less gain on both ends, or is it an artefact due to measurements?


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm sure they are correct because I named the files as I took the screenshots. 

The top down measurement is a little suspect because apparently Harley Davidson motorcycles need to warm up for an hour before you can drive them. The guy about half a block away started his just after I started the sweeps and I carried on. After taking the measurement I waited for him to shut it off or drive away, but after 45 minutes I gave up. Either way, I threw a 50Hz high pass on it after tuning.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Ho ok got it, must be that.
Had the same **** when I measured, 200 points or more can take quite a long time and there was always a truck/bike/jet/dog around to mess everything up 
(What a moron to warm a hd 30 min on stand btw, or maybe they're liquid cooled now? )


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I sometimes have prop planes overhead. I've set the mic to it's least sensitive setting, so I could crank it up and drown out any background noise. But from an anti-theft perspective, it seems like a bad idea to do that at home! 

Once I get the horns and amp installed I'll go to work and tune it there, where I can crank it up without any concerns of disturbing others or getting the attention of a thief.

Also, I hate HD bikes, and I rarely use the term "hate" but damn, the bikes and their riders annoy me like no other.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Sure 5 min of loud sweeps the top down must bring attention! Haha


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

If you flip the horn over (driver on the bottom, probably the horn from the left side) does it fit better around the hvac block?


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I tried that, but then the motors take up WAY too much space in the footwell. Plus, the driver side would block me from using the dead pedal. I'll order some mini bodies from Eric soon and I'll be set.


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## nadams5755 (Jun 8, 2012)

that sucks. the minis should fit in there a bit better. the jbl/selenium 2408hs are smaller drivers as well, might help with clearance on the back side.

i'm pulling my minis and selenium d2500tis out, they'll need a new home in a couple weeks if you're interested.

with idq62s and minis+d2500s, i ended up with heavy natural rolloff/valley between like 2000 and 3500. figuring how to prop up that space was a challenge. i imagine the idq8s will be a bit wider.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I'll be going with the mini bodies with the straighter entrance, and Eric's newest drivers. The smaller driver, combined with the straighter entrance, should allow everything to fit.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm working in sunny San Diego and I learned that last last there was softball size hail at home. The Miata is parked at work of has some "bad dents" and a hole in the top. One of the guys at the shop made a temporary patch for the roof. I've already started the insurance claim.

The Bronco is at home, I haven't heard anything about it yet.

I won't be hime until Friday and I leave for two weeks on the following Tuesday.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Ho ****, and they went through the soft top! Must have been something, sorry for you man


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I got home today and got to see the hail damage, it's pretty bad. At least 30 dents, this one is in a terrible location:










The hole in the top is right in the center. The insurance adjust will look at it tomorrow morning.

There is also a hole in the top of the Bronco, but no dents. I only have liability insurance on it, I get to replace the top myself.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

The estimate for repairs is about $4k, ouch! I'll get a new top, hood, passenger door skin, taillights, new paint on the trunk, and a bunch of other little things. 

The real kick in the nads was learning about my insurance policy. If I had comprehensive on the Bronco, then the deductible would cover both cars. Instead, I get to replace the top on it myself, and it's $550.

To help ease the pain, I ordered another amp for my home subs, it'll arrive tomorrow. So instead of 700 watts, I'll have 2200. That should help some, right?


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I just got a call from the shop, after their estimate, it might be totaled.

They assured me that I'll be able to pull my audio gear if it is, as long as the stereo is fully functional when I'm done.

If it's totaled I'll buy another 2009+ 3rd gen with low miles and start over.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Oh man...so sorry to hear that. I was surprised when you said it was onlky around $4k from the insurance adjuster. Sounded like a LOT more money in repair labor and paint for that kind of damage.

Better start looking for replacements now just in case. Man, what a bummer. I really liked that color too.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

If it's totaled then it'll be awhile until I can replace it. I'm about to head out for 12 weeks straight on the road. I'll have to go car shopping in the fall.

I just hope they make a decision soon so that if I have to pull upgrades I have the time to do it.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Might want to pull them just in case now if you're able. Once they total it, if you're on the road you may not get the opportunity to retrieve that stuff.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Once they declared my wife's car totaled we had 48hours to remove any personal belongings


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Mic10is said:


> Once they declared my wife's car totaled we had 48hours to remove any personal belongings


That concerned me a bit, so I called the insurance company. They won't make a decision until the end of this week or the beginning of next. They wouldn't answer anything about having a timeline to get my stuff once they make a decision.

This kinda works with my schedule. I leave for Houston in the morning to setup a tournament and plan to return on Monday. The good thing is, I'll be close to home, so I can return early if I need to. Unlike most tournaments I'm at, I won't be the boss, and my boss will totally understand if I have to leave early. I'm really just going to this one to help make sure a friend gets off to a good start on their first gig with the company.

On the 8th I leave for 12 weeks.


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## thereddestdog (Feb 21, 2017)

What a damn bummer, such a nice car..

Maybe invest in a carport when you get another car? I've been looking at Palram carports myself


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm renting, and park in the street, so not an option. The Miata was actually at work when it happened.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I just got a call from the shop, it's NOT totaled!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Good news! Now how long do you wait for the repair?


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

They said late next week. But it doesn't matter too much, I leave on a work trip on Monday and won't be home until late June.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Cool, worryless trip!


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I got home today and have five days off before my next trip. On the way home I was able to pickup the Miata from the shop, it looks great!










My new horn bodies were waiting for me too!










I mocked them up, and I'm afraid that horns just might not happen for this car. The driver side fits great, perfect actually! But even with the smaller horn and better throat entry angle, it's just not gonna clear the blower motor.

So, what do I do now?

I have the IDQ8's in the doors and a DEH-P800PRS installed. Do I try to find a tweeter that'll play low enough to pair with the IDQ8's? Or do I go with something like an Audiofrog 2.5 and a tweeter? The three way would push the limits of the crossovers in the headunit, but I do have a JL TwK sitting around, as well as a handfull of amps...

What would you do?


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Good & bad news!

Maybe you could still try, I mean to install the right one best as possible and test. Even with 1 or 2 inches height difference, tilted a bit, might work?

Or would a shorten/modded full body be ok? Motor down.
It looks like it's more the depht that is a limit though.

Other path: gb25 in the vents! 
I think I would try if I had your car.

How are the doors? Can you fit a PA closed back midrange above the 8"?

Or a PA coax 8" in doors and call it a day!


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I've already mocked up the full bodies, they take up WAY too much foot room with the motors hanging. The car is small enough as it is, so taking up too much room is a real concern.

Here is a picture of the stock door panel:









And the door:









I'd bet a a GB25 or maybe even GB40 can fit in the factory tweeter location if I remove the factory grill and use the AF mounting hardware. Then put a GB10 just above it on the door panel.

I could use my JL 300/4 to power the 8 and mid, giving each 75 watts. And a Zapco AG200 on the tweeters for 50 watts each.

I could also bridge the 300/4 for the 8's, for 150 watts each. Then an ancient MTX RT2400 on the mids for 100 watts each. And the Zapco on the tweets.

It's a good thing I have time to think about this stuff!


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Oh yeah 3 way in doors, with tweeter in the top panel in front of the handle, 3 chrome rings aligned all the way, that would be very nice (but far from horns).
The gb25 with hardware almost size 4’’, so the gb40 I guess would be close to 6’’, might not fit.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I downloaded the AF owners manuals today and will measure things tomorrow. It would be awesome if the chrome rings from a mid perfectly in the tweeter opening.

Running two more sets of speaker wires to the doors is gonna be painful, eak.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

If I remember the 25 and 40 have the same depth.
The gb15 is interesting too, goes quite low.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

So, I looked at the GB15, and it is interesting. Also, I have a bunch of M25's sitting around, and they are interesting too.

GB15:









M25:









I've asked Nick how low I can go with them at 24db/oct on the AG200, time to ask Andy the same question.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Not sure if it will help, but this is from my overlay database. This allows you to compare FR graphs adjusted to the same scale. 

Audiofrog GB25 (dark blue-on axis) vs Stereo Integrity M25 (black-on axis, red-15, light blue-30)


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks for doing that!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

LumbermanSVO said:


> Thanks for doing that!


No problem. I have a little over 120 drivers in my database now.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

rton20s said:


> No problem. I have a little over 120 drivers in my database now.


Awesome!

Nick got back to me, he doesn't recommend going lower than 3000 on his tweeter, with 2500 being the lower limit. And after looking at Erin's test of the GB15, it might not go low enough either. So I'm back at a 3-way with the GB25's and GB10. 

I just need to figure out where to hide that third amp...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

LumbermanSVO said:


> So, I looked at the GB15, and it is interesting. Also, I have a bunch of M25's sitting around, and they are interesting too.
> 
> GB15:
> 
> ...


Andy will tell you 2k at 24db

Edit. He will say that for the gb10. Not sure about gb15. That graph looks mixed up with the gb10 though

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

LumbermanSVO said:


> Awesome!
> 
> Nick got back to me, he doesn't recommend going lower than 3000 on his tweeter, with 2500 being the lower limit. And after looking at Erin's test of the GB15, it might not go low enough either. So I'm back at a 3-way with the GB25's and GB10.
> 
> I just need to figure out where to hide that third amp...


I had my gb15s at 1800hz/24db and they were fine, if it helps.
Places right on top of the door panel, front of handle.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Elgrosso said:


> I had my gb15s at 1800hz/24db and they were fine, if it helps.
> Places right on top of the door panel, front of handle.


That's good to hear...


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I installed the JL 300/4(bridged) today and ran everything for the Zapco AG200. Both amps are about the same height, but the Zapco has a smaller footprint. Oddly, the Zapco doesn't really fit under the driver seat, but the JL fits great under the passenger seat. Hmmm. Its not uncommon for tall people to lower the driver seat, but I've never looked into it becasue I'm 5'7".

I just roughly set the gains then went for a 20 mile drive. The increase in power was quite nice, and if I were an average consumer, I'd be totally happy with it. I was able to drop the highpass from 80 to 50 without issue. Tomorrow I leave for 5 weeks, while I'm gone I'll order the GB15's. 

Fun thing, I was waiting to make a left turn and got a smaller-than-ideal opening in traffic and took it. I broke the rear end loose and did a power slide through the intersection. The people waiting on that road looked horrified, but I had a bigass smile on my face. It's amazing how controllable this car is when sliding compared to my last sports car, a Fox Mustang.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I ordered the GB15's today, they'll be waiting for me when I get home. It's been a LONG time since I've had conventional tweeters.

Eric says my IDQ's will play up to about 2500 @24db/oct for the lowpass. The owners manual on the GB15's says 1800 @12db/oct. These are my crossover options in the 800PRS:










So I'm think I'll start at 2000 @24db/oct and see where I end up.

Now if I just had some time at home...


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Krikey today was hot! Stupid Texas summer.

But I got the GB15's installed and finished up the Zapco AG200.

Here is the factory tweeter in it's mount:









Here is the factory tweeter next to the GB15:



















The GB15 mounted up in the factory location with a WeatherPack pigtail:










Running the new speaker wire through the door boot requires drilling a plug, but to remove the plug, you have to remove the whole door:










The boot assembly with the new wire in it:










While I had the door open I added Fast rings to the IDQ8's:










At the moment I have the IDQ8's playing from 50-2500 and the GB15's are playing from 2500 and up. I set the TA and roughed in the gains. I didn't make any changes to the APL tune, and don't know if it is currently set to the top up or down tune.

So far I am totally pleased with the AudioFrogs and am thrilled that I finally put my IDQ8's to use. It's a very well balanced setup, plays decently low and gets plenty loud.

Tomorrow I'll swing by the office and pickup my tuning laptop and start the real tune. I also have an appointment to get the windows tinted in the afternoon, I'm getting a heat barrier tint to help in this crazy heat. At the moment it would actually hurt if I sat down in it, gotta stop that crap!


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## Weightless (May 5, 2005)

Looks good. I'm debating on using the gb15 in my 99 to mate up with an 8 as well. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one wanting to do it. 

So, how hard is it taking the doors off? Or, I should really ask, how hard is it putting them back on and aligning them? Running miata wiring to the doors sucks big time...

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

If you remove the bolts from the door, and leave the hinges on the chassis, then it is fairly simple to put them back on. They are light enough that I was able to do it alone, though I would recommend help. By leaving the hinges on the chassis, they stay aligned and the bolts are designed to realign the door to it's original position. You need a 10mm and 12mm to remove the door. Remove the door wiring harness before unbolting the 5 bolts that secure the door!

I started with the GB15's at 2000Hz with a LR 24db slope and they were fine. I bet they'll easily play lower with the same slope. I wouldn't be surprised if they could handle 1600Hz, where I've has some horns crossed over before.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Sweet the mount was made for them!
You have the apl in this one too right? Gb15 is beefy, but the filter might push it a bit more than what you've set, especially with the 8" being hollow at these frequencies.
Maybe 2.5khz @12hz would be nice?

And... did you drive without the doors?


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Once I get my tuning laptop I'll run some tests to see what the tweeters and mids like best for a crossover. I initially started at 2k @24db then bumped it up to 2.5K and didn't notice much difference, so i don't think it's at the limits of the mids, though it in beaming territory.

I have to admit, I had to actually crack open the owners manual for the GB15's to figure out the mounting hardware. It's a pretty slick system and fits this car VERY well!

Yes, I have the APL in this car. The only thing left on my list is making a switch to change tunes when the top is up or down.

I'm amazed the HOA hasn't complained about the work I've done on my cars in the street, I think driving without door might put them over the edge.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Yes please share the measured results. I'm sure it sounds nice! Clean and simple system, great components, install and dsp, can't go wrong. 
Btw, do you use mp1? Might be exactly the natural response you get here.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I'll post up the flat measurements as well as the after-tune measurements. I use the mp1 tune, it's quite nice!

Also, I think I've only added about 30lbs to the car. Not bad at all considering the drastic change in sound I've made! I could stand to lose 30lbs, cancelling out the weight gain in the car!


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Got the window tint done today, 32% on the doors and back window, 50% on the windshield. The tuning begins tomorrow.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

How do you plan to lose 30 pounds now if you don't have the sauna effect? 



(I hate tint, think it just kills any silhouette, but sure I get it, it's already hard for me in LA so in TX...)


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Elgrosso said:


> How do you plan to lose 30 pounds now if you don't have the sauna effect?
> 
> 
> 
> (I hate tint, think it just kills any silhouette, but sure I get it, it's already hard for me in LA so in TX...)


I probably should have gone 50% all the way around, but it wasn't bad driving in the twilight hour. Tuning tomorrow will be more comfortable than last time!


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I got some work done on the tune today, but not much.

I fired up REW and used the RTA and pink noise to get a general idea of how the speaker levels were relative to each other. I just kinda ballparked it.

Next I used TDA to set the TA on each side relative to each other. This si the initial measurement from the left side:










I just the TDA tool to measure the time difference between the low frequencies and what i thought was the most dominant high frequencies. Then I used a tool on Erin's site to convert that time to inches, and made the change in the HU. This was after the first adjustment:










I think that's god enough for now!

After doing the same on the right side, I then used REW to find how the left and right were timed relative to each other. That took a little more time to get right, but I got it close enough that every new measurement was just overshooting in the opposite way from the last one, even when making .5 inch adjustments.

I opened up Workshop and ran a sweep of the left side, and then ran into problems. I can see the graphs after the measurement, but it refuses to allow me to save an FIR file, or do any processing after taking the measurement. I'm getting the same issue no matter what laptop I use.

I guess I'm done tuning for now. I leave on a 5-week trip tomorrow, so I'll pick up where I left off then.

Now I'm off to post in the big APL thread...


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I got home on Friday and did a little work. I decided to do most of the tuning from scratch, the TA was fine, so I left that alone. 

I started by setting the APL to flat and -15db to eliminate any possible clipping. I then used 0db sine waves at 4khz and 400hz to test the two outputs of the HU with my O'Scope. All was good so I moved on to the amps with -10db sine waves.

After setting the gains I moved on to REW and used pink noise and the RTA function to set the levels between the tweeters and mids, using the HU to turn down the louder stuff. I had to turn the tweeters down quite a bit. Then I used the same tools to set the levels between the left and right and got them within 1db.

After getting all that setup I move on to APL Workshop. I did a little over 200 samples on each side, and uploaded the FIR files into the APL1 and took a listen. DONE! 

I was so happy with the sound I didn't even bother taking an after measurement. It sounds... Right. Good. Great! I couldn't find any major flaws except the obvious, it doesn't play super low. But it's perfect for this car, it's fun! There's plenty of power and good dynamics. I'm quite happy with it.

I only have a couple tasks left: I need to clarify with Raimonds on how to convert my APL1 16 position switch to a 2 position. I think a pull switch with a cable hooked to the softtop frame is the cleanest way to make a top up/down switch. I also need to make some brackets to secure the amps under the seats so they can't slide around.

While I was home last time I had to remove the center console to do something, and that requires removing the shift knob. When taking the factory knob off the label fell off, and it now looks like crap:










So I went looking for a new knob. When looking for a clean, simple, leather knob for a Mustang it's easy. But it turns out, finding the same for a Mazda isn't so easy. The stupid "tuners" have ruined that market. I was eventually able to find Rev9, a company that will allow you to pick your leather/stitch colors. I ordered one and went with black/black for a simple look. I also did the "while I'm in there" move and ordered a short throw shifter from MiataRoadster. This weekend I installed both the shifter and knob. 










The Miata 5-speed is already a fantastically smooth shifting transmission, but this shifter make it just that much better. It was quite an expensive upgrade, but very much worth it. It makes the car just that much more enjoyable to drive, as if it wasn't fun enough already!


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Howdy!

Looking at the TDA 2d measurement, it looks like you have decent alignment between 100hz and 4khz, but it gets a little wonky outside that range.

What are your crossover points and slopes that you are currently using?




I used TDA recently and had to play around with xover points and slopes as well as adjusting TA and this was the result of complete system playing:



This is *before* any APL correction. I'm sure it can be made even better with some more time.



Cheers,

Steve


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Wow Steve, that is VERY impressive! How does it sound?

In those measurements my crossovers were set as:

Mids: HP 50Hz @24db, LP 2k @24db
Highs: HP 2k @24db

Today I changed them to:

Mids: HP 80Hz @12db, LP 1600Hz @24db
Highs: HP 1600Hz @24db

I'm assuming that the crossover in the 800PRS are LR and not Butterworth. 

The HP on the mids were decided after modeling them in WinISD and looking at xmax/power/frequency. 80Hz @12db seems to get the best balance between playing low and being able to handle the power. While the specs for the amp indicate that it's only 150x2 bridged @4ohm, these amps have been tested before and put out well over 200x2 in this configuration.

Today I also changed the crossover between the mids/tweeters to 1600Hz @24db, and the tweeters seem quite happy with it.

I'll take some "after" measurements tomorrow and see what I get, in REW, Workshop and TDA.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

The measurements are in!

I'll start with the original Workshop measurements from yesterday, these are before any EQ.

Left:








Right:









And after EQ

Left:








Right:









I'm curious why Workshop isn't making any changes over about 6kHz. But I'm getting great response down to 50Hz, even with an 80Hz HP, just like WinISD predicted.

The TDA response gets more interesting though. When compared to my graphs from above, the TDA measurements got worse.

Left:








Right:









And for a final graph, a couple REW measurements after doing the APL work:


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Per Raimonds, the Workshop software has limiters for what it will correct in "extremes" of the frequency response ranges - meaning very low freq and very high freq.

Also, you can play with using a different time window for your measurements. The 100ms or 200ms time windows will get you more low end response/more accuracy in low freq. A shorter time window will yield better high freq response.


Out of curiosity, what does your TDA 2d plot look like with *combined* left and right? Also- Are you using a sub or just the 2 way?


As for mine, I think it is sounding very good. I still have some more tweaking to do though with both the measurements and with the target curve to optimize.



Cheers,

Steve


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

captainobvious said:


> Per Raimonds, the Workshop software has limiters for what it will correct in "extremes" of the frequency response ranges - meaning very low freq and very high freq.
> 
> Also, you can play with using a different time window for your measurements. The 100ms or 200ms time windows will get you more low end response/more accuracy in low freq. A shorter time window will yield better high freq response.


I forgot about all that, it's been awhile since I've messed with it.



> Out of curiosity, what does your TDA 2d plot look like with *combined* left and right? Also- Are you using a sub or just the 2 way?
> 
> 
> As for mine, I think it is sounding very good. I still have some more tweaking to do though with both the measurements and with the target curve to optimize.
> ...


The TDA combined plot is a mess, much worse than the single sides I didn't even bother saving it. I haven't really messed with any setting in TDA yet, I just fire it up, select a channel, and measure.

No sub, just the IDQ8's and GB15's.

My only other processing is 800PRS.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Well, my HU has taken a crap on me, the right side output is dead. 10 years isn't terrible for a HU, especially since it did a couple hundred thousand miles in a rough riding Kenworth before I ever put it in a car.

So now I have a few options:

*Free Option:* Replace the HU with the TwK D8 I already have. The pro is great tuning flexibility, digital input from the APL1. The con is finding a place to put the volume knob that looks natural, loss of steering wheel controls.

*Low Cost Option:* Replace it with a Pioneer DEH-80PRS. The pro is that it's pretty much a direct drop in. The con is that it looks terrible, bleh.

*Medium Cost Option:* Replace it with a Pioneer DEX-P99RS. The pro is that it's pretty much a direct drop in, and offers more tuning flexibility than the dead 880PRS. The con is the price for not much of an upgrade.

*Higher Cost Option:* Buy a Helix P SIX DSP MKII. The pro is the greatly increase tuning flexibility, digital input from the APL1, I can ditch both current amps, it's smaller than the JL, I'll have free channels to add subs later if I want. The con is trying to mount the controller so it looks natural, loss of steering wheel controls, price.

What would you do? Any other ideas?


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

LumbermanSVO said:


> .... What would you do? Any other ideas?


I've enjoyed following your thread, especially you keeping the 'OEM look and functionality' while achieving some great SQ it appears.

I'd like to see you keep that theme, avoiding loss of SW controls or added displays/controls, but that's just me. You've done great with that approach so far it seems.

Thanks for sharing, I've enjoyed it!

Signed,
Fellow Miata Fan
('01 SE since 2007, 2nd owner)


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## Weightless (May 5, 2005)

Dammit, now I have to reread your thread to see where you went with this...

Btw, I agree about the 80prs. It looks awful. While the functionality went up from the 800prs, the aesthetics took a nose dive. 

If I haven't mentioned it before, I will be taking a similar install journey soon. Going to be doing an 8" 2 way with the GB15 in my 99'. 

Not sure which route I'll be going with the HU though.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I just came up with an idea that could solve all but the price issue with the Helix option...

Does anyone here know much about interfacing with steering wheel controls? I could either get a signal directly from the factory controls, or use the existing Metra ASWC-1 to convert it to something else useful.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Not sure what year wheel you used, but if it helps see wiring diagrams here BBB Industries- Premium Alternators, Starters, Power Steering Products | TSB's & Wiring Diagrams

You're a wiley one, Sir, staying tuned .....


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I actually have all of the cars wiring diagram already.

The steering wheel controls all lead to one wire behind the radio. I just need to know whats going on with that wire to know if I can use it. I suspect I'll have to just put a meter on it to find out. It's probably just a different resistance for each function.

Anyone here know much about Arduino?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Would you be using the DEH-80PRS and DEX-P99RS for their DSP as well as source units? Or are they really nothing more than a source? If you are using them for processing, how much processing power do you need if you already have the APL1 and TwK D8?

If I might suggest another "low cost" head unit option (though, without bandpass crossovers), I would take a look at the Alpine CDE-HD149BT. It isn't the latest and greatest, but it is THE single DIN head unit I would buy if I didn't need the processing power of the P99RS or 80PRS.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

The TwK is currently not in the system, I bought it for my Bronco and haven't installed it yet. 

The current HU is doing X-Over, TA and volume control. With it dead, I need a new solution for that, and I'd prefer to keep the steering wheel controls. I have an idea for that, I've started ordering parts and I'll post more about it as I assemble stuff...


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Maybe I'm unclear, but were you using the ASWC-1 for steering wheel interface with the current(dead) head unit? If so, why would you not be able to use the same interface with a new unit? All of those mentioned above will support steering wheel controls via that interface and their built in jack on the back of the unit.


-Steve


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

If I replace the dead HU with either an 80 or 99, then yes, I keep the steering wheel controls.

However, if I go without a HU and go direct to the TwK or Helix, then I will lose the steering wheel controls.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Oh, ok I see what you are saying. 
Yes, I would replace with a HU to retain the steering wheel controls. That Alpine Dustin mentioned is a nice unit and looks a lot better than the 80PRS.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

If you don't need L/R EQ, but do need the bandpass crossovers, you can also take a look at the Alpine CDE-163BT and CDE-164BT. The screen isn't as nice as the 149 and I don't think the face layout is as nice, but they do have the TA, crossovers and volume control you're likely to need. 

If you don't go with a new HU, I would be interested to see what you come up with to try and maintain your steering wheel controls with just the DSP(s).


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

rton20s said:


> If you don't need L/R EQ, but do need the bandpass crossovers, you can also take a look at the Alpine CDE-163BT and CDE-164BT. The screen isn't as nice as the 149 and I don't think the face layout is as nice, but they do have the TA, crossovers and volume control you're likely to need.
> 
> If you don't go with a new HU, I would be interested to see what you come up with to try and maintain your steering wheel controls with just the DSP(s).


I've ordered some parts to start working on a DSP-only solution that retains steering wheel controls. I will have to learn some C or C++, and do some testing on both the factory steering wheel control wire and the output of the ASWC-1. 

I leave tomorrow for a two week road trip, when I get back some of the parts should be waiting for me. I got a promotion this winter, with that comes new responsibilities. Now my "down time" at shows will be doing advance administrative work for other shows, and my time to research personal projects has diminished greatly. So I'll break this up into two phases: #1 is getting the manual controls working, #2 is automating those manual controls with the steering wheel controls. My idea is totally possible, I just need to learn how to make it work.

So, um, anyone here know anything about Arduino, C, or C++?


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I got home today and some toys were waiting for me.



















What we have here is a couple motorized linear 10K pots, an ethernet breakout board, and a mini DIN to ethernet adaptor.

So here is the plan: I'll pick up a Helix P Six and use these parts to build my remote control. I'll gut the factory radio, and put the pots in place of it's volume and tune knobs, and put the voltage gauge behind the window on the factory radio. 

But that's not all!










With this cute little Arduino board, I should be able to read the steering wheel controls, and run the motors on the pots. This gets me the ideal setup for this car: Small lightweight system, great sounding, retain the (added)factory controls, and keep the non-flashy looks.

I'm home for a month, hopefully that's enough time to get the steering wheel buttons working!


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Motivation, obsession, and mad skills (or at least dedication to learn).

Gotta respect that combination, _still _staying tuned ....

:thumbsup:


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm home for a few days, and I'm taking my car on the next work trip. If I'm quick I can have the new setup running for the trip, giving me lots of time to tune it.

A mock up of the new "headunit" setup:










I will eventually tint the window so only the clipping lights show though. I need to glue the old buttons in, and add the new volume knob.

From the back:










I'm ditching the old digital setup out of the phone. I was using a lightning to to HDMI adaptor, and HDMI audio de-embedder, then digital coax to the APL1. The biggest drawback to that setup is the super slow phone charging because a sinle USB cable has to split power between the phone and HDMI adapter.

Now I'm using an aptX Bluetooth receiver that has an optical output. The optical will go straight into the APL1. By going bluetooth that leaves the charging port on my phone to do just that, charge, so it should charge much faster. Also, by having just one device in front of the APL1, it really cleans up the wiring.

I was planning to us the Helix P Six DSP, but before I got around to ordering one, JL came out with the VXi line, my 800/8 arrived a couple days ago:



















I've already installed it:



















The install pics are terrible, and I couldn't keep the dead grass from blowing into the car while working, so it looks dirty as hell. Better pics will be coming. Overall, the install is much cleaner than with the old Slash 300/4, and the VXi fits MUCH better. Also, now that the AG200 is gone, the driver seat goes all the way back again. 

I'm going optical from the APL1 to the VXi, making cabling MUCH simpler. Right now I'm running the mids and tweeters off the first 4 channels, and when I add subs I'll bridge the last 4 channels to them.

At the moment I'm waiting on some TOSLINK 90º adapters and a 90º USB B cable to arrive so I can toss the new "headunit" in.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Today I removed the board from the APL1 and drilled some holes in the side of it's case to mount it to the cage of the factory radio.










Then I cabled everything up:










What you can't really see is the power controller for my dash cam, and the USB power port.

I mounted the volume control, and glued the factory buttons in place:










I've lost a button, but I'm sure it'll turn up soon enough.

Also, I used a DB25 connector to loop the analog Aux outputs from the amp back into the analog inputs:










This gets me an extra 10 bands of parametric EQ per side.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

More of the lovely work we've come to expect from you  

Safe travels to your next tournament


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Pretty cool to fit in the OEM HU!

Did you try something like this?










Then USB to coax box, charging is fast on mine.
But I have the phone in the dash so I needed wired.
Maybe APTX is good enough, or could you fit the phone in the 3 holes area?
Like:










It’s really cool to have it accessible like that


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I did try the USB 3 camera adapter with a USB audio adapter, but it didn't stop the music when I shut off the key. The HDMI solution does stop the music. The new setup should stop the music too, but I don't know yet.

I REALLY like the idea of the factory look, because MOST of the time I'm driving I have the top down, and it's not uncommon for me to leave it down when I park. Looking stock has some big security benefits.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

LumbermanSVO said:


> I did try the USB 3 camera adapter with a USB audio adapter, but it didn't stop the music when I shut off the key. The HDMI solution does stop the music. The new setup should stop the music too, but I don't know yet.


Must be 12v/ACc related more than the usb kit no? Mine is on acc and then stops with the keys off.




LumbermanSVO said:


> I REALLY like the idea of the factory look, because MOST of the time I'm driving I have the top down, and it's not uncommon for me to leave it down when I park. Looking stock has some big security benefits.


Sure, I don’t really have this constrain as the phone is excatly the shape of the oem gps display. So even if for some reasons I leave it there it still looks close to oem.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Elgrosso said:


> Must be 12v/ACc related more than the usb kit no? Mine is on acc and then stops with the keys off.


I had the USB power setup to cut power to the phone when the key was off, so I suspect the USB soundcard was capable of drawing power from the phone. I don't believe the HDMI dongle can run without power. It actually took more effort than I thought it would to find a BT receiver that didn't have a battery built in.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

It's well documented that the APL1 will switch to the analog inputs when there is no digital signal present. That worked VERY well with the HDMI solution because I could just unplug the phone and the HDMI de-embedder would shut off it's output. Unfortunately, the BT device doesn't shut off it's output when there is no device connected. I don't know if this will actually be a problem yet.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

A good news post!

First the non-car audio related news. I got a promotion at work, I'm now a Project Manager instead of an LED Video Tech. This means I'll be running all of our golf shows and a handful of other shows. I have a handful of techs under me, and my direct supervisor is an awesome dude with a TON of experience and great attitude. Even better, I'll be home a LOT more. I travelled 255 days last year for 15 golf tournaments. Now I'll attend a handful of tournaments, and instead of being there for the whole two weeks it takes to do a tournament, I'll just be there for setup and a couple days during tournament week to make sure things are off to a good start, then I'll go home. I've been on the road(in various forms) since 2007, so it'll take a little while to get used to being home so much.

As far as the install goes, I have some mediocre news there. Before my last trip I was having some serious issues with my XVi, see here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/5436858-post231.html

Several weeks ago JL agreed to swap the amp out, but I had already left on my trip, so that was put on hold. I got home on Tuesday and did some updates on my computer(I NEVER update on the road) and saw that TüN had an update. Today I plugged the computer into the amp and did the update. The distortion issues went away with the update, so yay! However, if I try to send the digital out the Aux outputs and back to inputs 1&2, it's still high passed, and the volume is VERY low. If I go direct from the digital input to outputs 1-4, it works fine now. So, I feel like I should still send it back, but ****, I just want some music in my car, and I can get it to work on for now.

While contemplating pulling the amp I went ahead and put 4 sheets of KnuKoncepts Kolossus in each door. I out on sheet on the outer skin, one on the inner metal skin, one on the plastic inner skin, and one on the door card. I also swapped out the plastic inner plastic skins with one from a Bose system, so no more hack job to get the 8's in. I also used some prefab spacers for the 8's. The 8's still stick out way too far and prevent the door card from going on all the way. I ordered some SB Acoustic 8's that are shallower, but they have an 8" cutout, and the door has a 7" cutout that can't really be made much bigger without a bunch of extra work. Some Illusion Carbon 8's would fit the bill perfectly...

I did some basic tuning with the top up with REW, no TA, and no APL tuning, with Raimonds MP1 tune as my target. This is where I am right now:










It's pretty far off from the target, but sounds pretty good so far. I suspect the area 2k(where the x-overs are set) will get a little better once I set TA using TDA. That big dip at 105Hz was there before and after tuning. I suspect it's a modal issue and there isn't much I can do about it. I'll set TA with TDA and tune with Workshop over the weekend.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Well, congrats on the job-front at least, kudos for that ! :beerchug:

Still following to see how the Miata audio project plays-out ...


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks! While it is exactly where I wanted this job to go, I wasn't expecting the promotion at all. I never mentioned wanting a promotion, and the position was never advertised for, but one day I got a phone call asking if I wanted it. Kinda cool for it to happen that way!

I'm still not sure if I should pull the amp and send it in, or just live with knowing something is wrong with it, and work around that. If I could just swing by a shop and swap the amp out I would.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

LumbermanSVO said:


> ....I'm still not sure if I should pull the amp and send it in, or just live with knowing something is wrong with it, and work around that. If I could just swing by a shop and swap the amp out I would.


Only you know best and the full significance of the issue, but I'll offer the observation that one reason the project has been fun to follow is your apparent low tolerance for compromise ..... 


As far as the job thing ... good employers recognize and reward valuable assets without the need for 'solicitation' .... good on them and good on you, sounds like you're among the lucky that have a truly great job situation, earned I'm sure, so 'cheers again' :beerchug:

(..... think maybe that 'low-tolerance for compromise' attitude carries over to the job and is appreciated there, eh?)


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

FordEscape said:


> (..... think maybe that 'low-tolerance for compromise' attitude carries over to the job and is appreciated there, eh?)


You wouldn't be wrong. And when it came to replacing myself on the tour, I picked someone who would actually be better at it than me.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Today was a little bit of a struggle. A couple weeks ago my laptop died and I had to replace it. I had a recent Time Machine backup of MacOS, so I was up and running quickly. The bummer is that Time Machine doesn’t back up Bootcamp installations. I don’t keep any data on the Bootcamp partition, but I did have to install Windows from scratch, and I totally forgot to do that while I was traveling because I have a work laptop with Windows on it.

So today I went to fire up my APL software to discover that I still needed to install Windows. No problem, I fired up Bootcamp and went to work. Then Bootcamp failed when partitioning the drive. To fix this I wiped the whole computer clean, reinstalled MacOS and restored my most recent Time Machine backup. I was then able to install Windows without a problem, then boot the Windows partition up from Fusion. I installed all the Matlab and .Net frameworks needed for the APL software, then went to install the APL Drivers and ran into this error:










Grrrr…

My personal Windows 8 computer still works fine, so I’ll use that to connect to the APL1 until I can resolve this issue.

Finally this afternoon I was done futzing around with software and was able to do some tuning. I started by bumping the mid/tweet crossover down to 1600, and reset the EQ’s in the amp. I then started tuning from scratch by using APL TDA to set TA. It was HOT as hell in the car, so I had to keep it running with the A/C on full blast just to keep the computer from overheating. I turned the HVAC off, did a sweep, then turned it back on again. You can see the engine running in the TDA plots, here they are after setting TA:

Left:









Right:









Both:









The highpass on the mids is set at 50Hz, so ignore everything below that. There is some weirdness going on around the mid/tweet crossover on the left side, I wonder if I can clean that up with allpass filters? I don’t know enough about allpass filter to know. You can see some wicked reflections on both sides over 10k. The combined Plot looks ok, but I suspect I can get the left-to-right a little better.

When I played some music the center is just a touch to the left side of the car, but otherwise solid as rock, and just below eye level. Not bad for zero EQ.

I then jumped over to REW and did a couple quick measurements of the individual speakers:










I did some quick tuning using the filters REW recommended, then remeasured:










There are three dips on the right side that are interesting, 330hz, 590Hz, and 1315Hz. The mids and tweets seem to mate up really well without any dips at the X-over point. Overall, both sides seem to sum up pretty well without any major issues. I’ll tune with APL Workshop tomorrow and see what I get.

I have some more door treatments on the way, I’m curious to see how they'll affect the frequency response. At the moment, with the volume all the way up, there isn’t any noise from the doors. You also don’t feel too much vibration when resting your arm on the door arm rest.

Overall, it sounds pretty good, no complaints at all. I'm not gonna spend too much time listening until after tuning with Workshop.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I did some tuning with APL today. First a couple graphs, left side before and after:



















And right before and after:



















One of my favorite parts of tuning with the APL is when you send the files to the unit. With no pauses, clicks, or defects in the sound, the new tune just snaps into place, and instantly sounds so much better. I was listening to folding Money by Radney Foster when I uploaded the files and it just came to life. I went for a drive and went through some songs, Another One Bites the Dust has great impact. I Will Rise Up by Lyle Lovett easily plays wider than the car and has some fantastic presence. Bartender by DMB is quite lively, as is St. nLouis Woman by Peter Cincotti. Don’t Do It by Underpaid Packy uses a bass guitar as the foundation of the song, and it’s very well composed, it plays cleanly with no breakup. And when playing Regulate you wouldn’t know there aren’t subs in the car, and the doors don’t rattle!

I’m really gonna enjoy this!

It’s clear in the graphs that the right side is a little lower than the left, but it’s very hard to hear it in the car.

If I can get the APL drivers to install on my MBP, I can use APL C5 to stack a couple more filters on top of the current ones to smooth it out a little more.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I spent a bunch of time trying everything I could to get the APL drivers to install in Windows 10 with no luck. I fired up C5 and poked around a bit and feel pretty comfortable with it. One of the fun things is the better look at the filters Workshop generates. here are some examples.

This is the left side after one pass with Workshop:









This is the filter generated on the second pass:









Once I get C5 working correctly, I can stack these filters(up to 3) so it gets progressively better each time. 

In a separate window you can see how the filters combine. You can also see the effects of the crossovers, and the filters available inside of C5, kinda neat.

I still have a few questions, but I think I'll ask them in Hanatsu's APL1012 review thread.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Judging by your graphs of the before (in post 106), it appears that you could adjust your gain levels of the drivers a bit more before running the APL correction so it doesn't have to have such a drastic amount of boost/cut to do. Specifically, the output level of the mids are much lower in the 100hz-600hz area than the output level of the tweeters. 



Congrats on the new position! That's outstanding news.


Do you have or are you considering an apl1012? I'd really like to play around with one. 



Regarding stacking of filters using C5- I don't have any experience using that software. I need to look around in it some more. Are you using this to create the filters for your APL1 instead of Workshop? 






Cheers,
Steve


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Well, I actually did that on purpose, and this is why:










This is a graph from earlier in the thread. As you can see, Workshop gave up around 6k because it was limited to 6db of boost. I bumped the boost limit to 10db and got it to extend further, but still not to 20k. This is why:










So I figured if I ran the tweeters hot and let Workshop tame it, it would run all the way out to 20k without having to boost at the high end. And it worked! Admittedly I went a little too far, but that’s easy to change at this point. The rest of my new door treatment stuff gets in this week, and I’ll retune from scratch once I install it, and then I’ll cut the gain on the tweeters by 3-5 db and see if Workshop is still happy with that.

I’ll eventually get an APL1012 for my Bronco. I’m waiting until I place my order for three of the rackmount 1012’s for my home theater. I’m doing a fully active 3-way(all SI drivers) 5.2 setup, and three 1012’s with a MiniDSP 10x10 to combine and distribute the sub outputs seems like a killer setup. Crude drawing:










C5 is made specifically for the APL1012 processor, and because the 1012 is just bunch of APL1’s in a single unit, C5 also works on the APL1. It takes the place of APL Config and has more features, here is the Main page:










As you setup your crossovers, unit 1 is your lowest frequency output and they get higher as you go up. To stack filters, go through your normal process in Workshop, then import those files to C5 in EQ 1 for that channel. Then send the filters to the unit, remeasure, and import your new correction files to EQ2. Rinse and repeat up to 3 sets of filters. If you import a filter to Unit 1 and check the “as Master” box, it will be applied to all the output. But there’s more!










This is the PEQ page. There are some cool things here, for starters, notice that the units are listed as 1-5, plus M for Master. As far as I can tell (Raimonds, correct me if I’m wrong) you have up to 30 bands of PEQ available per output, plus the Master. You can apply these before you ever run Workshop! Just hop back to the Main page to apply the filters and send them to the unit(s) before generating your first files with Workshop.










This is the crossover tab. It’s mostly straight forward, but there are a few things I need clarification on. If you don’t want a linear phase crossover you can use a LR4 or LR8 and apply Group Delay correction to it separately. A VERY important thing: The crossovers are NOT applied until you check the crossover boxes on the Main page!










Here you can see what your final filters look like for each output.










And lastly, there isn’t much on the Settings Page.

This morning I installed the 32 bit version of C5 on my Windows 8 computer and it works with the same license from the 64 bit version on Windows 10. I was able to apply the first stacked filter and it made an an improvement in the overall sound, as well as boosted the right side to better match the output of the left side. The center image became more focussed and the stage is a bit higher now. The drive into my first day at the office was quite enjoyable!

Once I finish the door treatments I’ll start from scratch, using Workshop and C5 to figure out the first PEQ’s to apply in the XVi. Then I’ll use the PEQ’s in C5 to add onto that before applying any filters from Workshop.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Wow thx for the steps LumbermanSVO,
I see a load button for the peqs, it’s the common format on txt files?
30peqs... that’s interesting

You’re using the gb15 right? How did you “paint” with the mic, did you come close to them and used the near field “technique” to readjust later with a filter? (Don’t remember the exact name and details, but the way to reduce the weight of the on axis/close drivers on the average, explained in the old pdf).
I remember I had to try different things when I had them on dash or high in doors, either manually or through filters.

And congrats for the job!


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

You can save and load .peqs files, but I don't have any other software to generate these files. When you open a .peqs file in Textedit, it is some sort of Matlab file that a silly mortal can't read. It appears that a .peqs file will save each individual filter you've built in that box. When you load it, it'll fill out each line automagically.

You can also save as a text file, but you can't load them in the same area. However, if you look at the box below that, "Input as curves" you see that there are 5 blank lines. If you check a box next to a blank line you'll get a prompt to load a .dat file. I have no idea what a .dat file is, or how to generate one, but I poked around, and it will let you load a .txt file instead. 

So what does that mean? It looks like you can go to town with the PEQ's and when you run out, save them as a .txt that combines all the existing PEQ's into a single file. Then you can load that .txt file in the lower box, and start fresh in the upper box. And it looks like you can do that five times! If you do the math, that's 150 PEQ's you can play with on *each output*, plus 150 on each input. And that's before you ever open Workshop! Holy moly Batman!

Raimonds, am I right?

As for painting, I just followed the standard procedure. I haven't had the need to combine measurements yet. It sounds damn good at the moment so I'm just gonna stick to what works.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Thanks, very helpful!


So to make the process more clear for me...


1. I know with the APL1 we measured each *side* independently. Do you measure each _driver _independently with Workshop to import into C5 now for use with APL1012? I'm assuming that is how you would need to do it since we are then applying crossovers in C5 to that raw measurement. 



2. Pretty cool that C5 can be used to generate the FIR to send to APL1 since it has so much more capability! How does this establish a connection to the APL1? In the Config software, there is actually a drop-down bar to connect to the physical unit prior to uploading any FIR filters and you also get a visual of which preset is currently active. How do you connect and is that info still shown?


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

LumbermanSVO said:


> You can save and load .peqs files, but I don't have any other software to generate these files. When you open a .peqs file in Textedit, it is some sort of Matlab file that a silly mortal can't read. It appears that a .peqs file will save each individual filter you've built in that box. When you load it, it'll fill out each line automagically.
> 
> You can also save as a text file, but you can't load them in the same area. However, if you look at the box below that, "Input as curves" you see that there are 5 blank lines. If you check a box next to a blank line you'll get a prompt to load a .dat file. I have no idea what a .dat file is, or how to generate one, but I poked around, and it will let you load a .txt file instead.
> 
> ...


I wonder if it’s compatible with rew/minidsp biquads.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

captainobvious said:


> Thanks, very helpful!
> 
> 
> So to make the process more clear for me...
> ...


1: I think the correct answer is, kinda. I don't have a 1012 yet, so I'm making an informed guess about the process. I believe you'll measure with measure each output individually at least once. From there you'll process the measurements with Workshop, dump the files into C5, sends to the unit(s). From there you can measure each driver individually, or measure the whole side at once, and apply filters accordingly. 

2: So far I haven't tried uploading directly from C5 to the APL1. I'm not sure what "Unit" a single APL1 is. When you click "send" it saves your .fir file to a folder you specify at the top of the screen. So far I've just been using APL Config to send the files to the unit.

I do have two APL1 units, if I can dig up a portable USB hub, I'll plug them both into the computer at the same time and see how C5 reacts.



Elgrosso said:


> I wonder if it’s compatible with rew/minidsp biquads.


The file .txt types look way different. The ones generated by C5 just list frequency and a value(amplitude?). The Biquad files generated by REW list a filter number, and a long string of numbers. The files are nothing like each other


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

LumbermanSVO said:


> ...
> 
> The file .txt types look way different. The ones generated by C5 just list frequency and a value(amplitude?). The Biquad files generated by REW list a filter number, and a long string of numbers. The files are nothing like each other


So this file is more a GEQ than PEQ if there’s no Q informations?
I saw different versions for calculating the Q but I think the biquad format is always the same (not sure though).
Ex:
biquad1,
b0=0.9992659588490702,
b1=-1.9842793144734525,
b2=0.9883921462989482,
a1=1.9842793144734525,
a2=-0.9876581051480183,


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

This is a .peqs file:









This is a .txt file:









Both are the same filter.


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Ok so completely different. Didn’t even know .peq existed.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Yeah, not even remotely close to the same as a Biquad!


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

BTW, I there is an interesting thing going on. Even though all my speakers are in the front of the doors, the bass still sounds like it's coming from the rear of the car. Anyone have any idea why?


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

LumbermanSVO said:


> BTW, I there is an interesting thing going on. Even though all my speakers are in the front of the doors, the bass still sounds like it's coming from the rear of the car. Anyone have any idea why?


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

rton20s said:


>


That must be a VERY small woman!


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I pulled the amp on the 4th to send it back to JL. Yesterday I put the amp in the car real quick to make sure I had saved the tune, and managed to scratch it in those few minutes, grrr.









This morning I was almost run over by some douche waffle in a pickup:
https://youtu.be/ouTPnIr04HI


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Ugg, I'd send that video and the license plate number to the local PD. That's nuts.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Yeah, I've see people run fresh red lights, but that dude missed it by a full 7 seconds. Asshat.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

JL received the amp early this week, hopefully I hear something from them soon.

In the meantime, I've ordered a pair of ID8's and I got permission from the wood shop at work to use their tools. So soon I'll start mimicking bullyx2's sub box, as seen here: Soundwaves of Tampa, Florida (813) 849-1104 - Photo Gallery

Because I'll have dedicated subs handling the low end I'm also changing the mids, but not going smaller. I have a new pair of Steven Audio MB8-2's ready to go in the doors to replace the IDQ8's. These won't play as low as the IDQ's, but are more sensitive and play higher. So I should gain some output and make blending with the tweeters easier. You know, if they actually fit...


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## bullyx2 (Jun 27, 2007)

LumbermanSVO said:


> JL received the amp early this week, hopefully I hear something from them soon.
> 
> In the meantime, I've ordered a pair of ID8's and I got permission from the wood shop at work to use their tools. So soon I'll start mimicking bullyx2's sub box, as seen here: Soundwaves of Tampa, Florida (813) 849-1104 - Photo Gallery
> 
> Because I'll have dedicated subs handling the low end I'm also changing the mids, but not going smaller. I have a new pair of Steven Audio MB8-2's ready to go in the doors to replace the IDQ8's. These won't play as low as the IDQ's, but are more sensitive and play higher. So I should gain some output and make blending with the tweeters easier. You know, if they actually fit...


Thanks for the shout out! It's been 7 years and still sounds great to me. I already owned the Kicker subs and they'd never been used, otherwise I'd have probably gone with ID8s as I am a huge fan.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

So, I picked up the used Illusion ND-8's that showed up in the classifieds for $250. These should fit in the doors without any mods, allow the door cards to fit properly, and play nicely with the GB15's. 

I guess the Stevens Audio MB8-2's will just have to go in the Bronco instead!


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## super josh (Aug 3, 2016)

Nice build  and one that I'm interested in as I have a similar car here in the UK.

How do you find the tweeter response in the stock location, with them being really off-axis?


Cheers,

Josh


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

This is both tweeters, there is a bit of roll off on the top end, but nothing to worry too much about. Their FR is incredibly smooth. I'm curious if it's be better if they were playing though the factory grills, but not curious enough to cut up the door panels. And this dumb Texas heat makes me too lazy to move them for testing, lol.


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## super josh (Aug 3, 2016)

Thanks for taking the time to post the graph, that is really useful. That's not a bad FR at all and has encouraged me to try some fairly lively tweeters that I have lying around (Focal TN51s) as I currently have the door apart for some CCF/MLV treatment. 

Cheers,

Josh


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Opened up a package today.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Nice! They look like they're in pretty good shape for their age.


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## slayersazen (Jul 25, 2018)

Agree with rton, those look sweet! Interested to hear from you how the sound!


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## alachua (Jun 30, 2008)

Glad you grabbed them before I did, interested to see how they compare to the monster IDs.

I'm debating grabbing a cheap set of the Earthquake SWS-8x off the next BMW guy to post them. Paired with the GB25s and KAXBLTWTs I impulse bought, it could be a killer setup.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

alachua said:


> Glad you grabbed them before I did, interested to see how they compare to the monster IDs.


In my setup the Illusions will be replacing the very old IDQ8's, they'll be doing midrange/midbass duty. The ID8's I bought will be doing sub duty. It should be a pretty fun system!


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I wasn't sure if I was going to do any work on the car before leaving for my next trip, but I bailed out of work before 11 today 

Here is the IQD8 next to the ND-8, a MASSIVE difference in mounting depth:









Unfortunately, the ND-8's don't drop in. The IDQ fits the factory hole perfectly, but the ND-8's are .3 inches bigger. This is as far is it will go:









I couldn't find my dremel, just my bit kit. I'd already started drinking, so I'll have to buy a dremel in the morning to make them fit.

In the meantime I started prepping the MLV for the doors. Here is a sheet cut to fit:









One door piece with Ensolite on it, one without:









Tomorrow I should have the doors back together, and the amp back in. I should have plenty of time to zero out the tune in both the amp and APL1. When I get back from my next work trip I'll just have to build a top up/down switch, build a sub box, and tune from scratch. Then this project will be wrapped up and I can focus on the Bronco again.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Today is stupid hot, but I worked on the car anyway. It's didn't take much effort with the dremel to make the ND-8's fit. I spent more time fooling around with the MLV/Ensolite fitting it properly. I was fortunate that I was able to hold it up with two zip ties, no silly velcro, and no drilling. Here is the complete door:










It felt super good when I was able to get ALL the clips to snap into place on the door card. It fit's like factory again!

Next up was installing the amp. I could have just set it in place, plugged it in, and called it good. Instead I decided to throw some WeatherPak connectors on the JL harnesses for easy reconfiguring later, if needed. I made sure each harness had different connectors so there could be no accidents.










The WeatherPak connectors fit nicely behind the rear interior panel. Now the connectors for the subs are just sitting there, waiting for me to connect the subs to them. If you look up top you'll see that I don't have much room to build the sub box!










In a bold move, I buttoned up the interior before turning the system on, and it all worked great. I then zero'd out the APL1, and setup the amp from scratch, I copied in the delays from the old amp. I turned it on with some DMB on random to do a VERY quick and dirty tune. I cut the tweeters some, put a low shelf on the mids, and it sounds pretty good. When I get home in a few weeks I install the subs and do a real tune.

Ok, that's a lie. It sounds great, the ND-8's blow the IDQ8's out of the water! The ND-8's are just simply a better driver. And the way they match up with the GB15's, it's very similar to how the Audax 7's match up with Eric's horns, it's like they were just made for each other. Magic! I sat in the driveway and went through my whole "Demo Songs" playlist trying to keep from cranking it up. The two songs that REALLY jumped out at me were I Will Rise Up by Lyle Lovett, and Something, Somewhere, Sometime by Ben Sollee and Daniel Martin Moore. I was so excited at how will it played them that I damn near leap through the roof.

I can't wait to install the subs and do a real tune. This is gonna be fun!


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

LumbermanSVO said:


> .... I decided to throw some WeatherPak connectors on the JL harnesses for easy reconfiguring later, if needed. I made sure each harness had different connectors so there could be no accidents.


Lovely :beerchug:


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I got little more work done today, I started by pulling apart the rear of the interior so I could measure things:










It looks like there is more room than there actually is. The factory roll bar takes up quite a bit of space. There are also some plastic panels that are crucial to properly draining any water that might slip past the top. I just put some CLD on the panels and reinstalled them.

Next I got out the tools, and a bottle of delicious Blue Bee cider:










I'm not a fantastic woodworker, but I was able to get this far before the storm rolled in:










I just have to put the ends on tomorrow, cut speaker holes, add speaker wire, installed it, and put the interior back together. Then I can start tuning!


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I made the sides a little tall on purpose, then slowly trimmed them down until it was just the right height for the roll bar to clamp the box into place:










Then I covered the box in truck bed liner. Also, I built the box with 1/2" Birch instead of 3/4" due to space. Because of that I added CLD to the box incase it vibrates. Speakers installed:










Installed in the car:










After wiring it up I gave a a quick listen, it works! I put the interior back together and listened to a few songs, this thing has real potential! I'll do some real tuning over the next week.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I fired up TDA to set the delays. Thing went super well with the right side:










I need to figure out what that hump from 90 to 150 is about.

I'm fairly sure the two strong lines above 3k are due to reflections.

The left side is wonky:










That HUGE deviation at 400 is weird, and I'm not sure what to think of it. It's nowhere near a crossover point.

The combined left and right isn't terrible though:










I couldn't get a real listen to on the way home because I had a huge Pelican case in the passenger seat.

The only EQ I've done so far is a cut on both sides at 3k. I haven't messed with the allpass filters yet either. Crossovers are:

Subs 70Hz LR24
Mids 70Hz LR24 - 1600Hz LR24
Tweeters 1600Hz LR24


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Really cool that you could fit them here, what was there originally, some storage?
And does the box act a bit like a bandpass with this somewhat “restricted” opening?


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Are you using the APL1012 now or still the APL1?


Nice job on the enclosure.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Elgrosso said:


> Really cool that you could fit them here, what was there originally, some storage?
> And does the box act a bit like a bandpass with this somewhat “restricted” opening?


There was a plastic shelf for the top to sit in when folded down, LOTS of wasted space under it. There were also three storage bins. two behind the seats, and one above the center console, that went below the rollbar. I didn’t use the bins, so i eliminated them.

I haven’t done any measuring outside of TDA yet. This is the AFR chart from TDA:

Right Side:









Left Side:









Both Sides:









Keep in mind this is a from a single point in space, and the only EQ right now is a cut at 3k.



captainobvious said:


> Are you using the APL1012 now or still the APL1?
> 
> 
> Nice job on the enclosure.


Thanks!

I'm using the APL1, and letting the JL VXi amp handle the crossovers and delay.

I plan to purchase an APL1012 for the Bronco, and a few for my fully active home theater setup


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## mcgsxr (Jul 19, 2018)

I like the downfiring setup, lots of sub in a small place!

In terms of vibration - do you notice the box vibrates sitting on those "feet/legs" directly on the metal body of the car - or have you used something to cushion where the box hits the car underneath?


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

The box is clamped into place by the roll bar, so I’m not too concerned about it rattling. I did find a rattle yesterday afternoon, but I think it’s a trim panel. I still have a lot of work to do back there. The box legs let sound come out from the front and back, I need to adjust it so sound only comes out the front. This should help with rattles, as well as a weird delay issue I have.

A bigger problem I have it the top, it causes all sorts of fun issues in the bass/midbass area. If I use my arms to brace the top, the problems aren’t as severe and effect a smaller range of frequencies. I exported text files from TDA and imported them into REW so I could compare them, here is the left side:









(The Y-axis is ms, *not DB*)

The “Stabil” measurements are when I braced the top with my arms. The back window(glass) moves a LOT when running a sweep, and I’m not sure how to brace it. However, right now sound from the subs can get out from under the box in the front and the back of the car. I think I’ll notice a difference by blocking the back, so sound ONLY comes out the front. This should help the back glass some. I have a couple ideas on how to help the top section of the top as well, but it won’t be easy.

All that said, with only one EQ adjustment, gains set very crudely by ear, and delays set the best I could get them so far, it sounds pretty good. The stage is as wide as the car, there is a hint of depth, there is a mediocre center, the bass is upfront, and there is good impact. It’ll only get better with more instal fixes and tuning!


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## super josh (Aug 3, 2016)

What a fantastic install  And I'm really envious of your sub box as I have a PRHT so no room back there as it's all used when the top is down 


Josh


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

super josh said:


> What a fantastic install  And I'm really envious of your sub box as I have a PRHT so no room back there as it's all used when the top is down
> 
> 
> Josh


Thanks!

You may have to go with a shallow passenger footwell sub if you want something more than the doors can handle.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I did some tuning today:










These are APL measurement files imported directly into REW, it makes it easy to show measurements in a format everyone here is familiar with. Also, I discovered today that you can import the DAT files APL Workshop generates directly into REW, super handy for setting the PEQ's in the amp!

So I did that and used REW to help guide me on setting the PEQ's in the amp.

There is still a problem on the left side that peaks around 150Hz, but the rest looks great. After a short listen, it sounds great too!

I still have stuff to fix, and I'll tune from scratch when I do. In the meantime, this is a VERY enjoyable setup!

Alos, I made a mistake early on when tuning, can you spot the mistake when looking at the REW files? http://lumbermansvo.com/APL/Miata/Miata.mdat


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

This hobby is dumb.

If I had taken up knitting as a hobby many years ago I’d have saved a ton of money, and would have endless scarves and sweaters.

I’m on a work/vacation trip in Florida and drove the Miata down from Texas, I spent fours days on two lane roads with the music cranked up just enjoying the drive. Four days is enough to reveal lots of flaws in the setup, and there are two big flaws. 

This first is road noise. I didn’t think it was that bad until I drove for three days in the rain. The noise from rain water kicked up by the rear tires just revealed how much work I have to do in the rear of the car. There are definite gains to be had by treating the area where the sub box is.

The other is that 100-250Hz dip on the left side response, even after tuning. I’m fairly certain that it is from the under side of the dash being open on that side of the car. I need to build a panel to fix that.

I also have a plan to add some sound absorbing material to the soft top. This will help stabilize it and improve resonance in a much wider frequency range than you might expect.

And last, I want to rebuild the sub box. After seeing how the soft top and the box interact with each other, I can probably gain at least another .5 CuFt of space to help the subs play lower, and get the most use of the little power they have. Also, with e redesign I can keep the sound energy going forward, and keep any energy from going towards the back of the car and into the top storage area. I will definitely keep both drivers on the passenger side of the car though, right now the driver seat doesn’t vibrate at all from the subs. However, the floor does, so I should probably fix that too…


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## Elgrosso (Jun 15, 2013)

Curious to see your soft top deadening tricks.
I’m not bothered by the rain here in LA and am satisfied with the noise level, but since I’ll have to change it soon that could be useful.

So you plan to seal most of the rear area around the sub?
I know I had drastic difference between my previous coupe and the actual convertible (same car model). It’s almost like if the soft top ate some of the bass, it also smooths it out a bit, well that’s from memory.
But had to go 2x15 or 1x15+PR to get what I wanted.

I wonder if there’s a way to simulate the response, treating the soft as a giant PR in a huge front chamber of a bandpass box (us being in this chamber of course).


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

The top deadening will be fairly simple, getting it to look good will be difficult. Unfortunately I can only do one section of it due to the way the top folds up.

Getting all the sub energy to go forward into the cabin *should* be beneficial, but I'm not expecting it to work wonders. However, it should result in less sound going into parts of the top I can't treat, making the overall response better.

Realistically, this stuff is borderline "diminishing returns" territory, and most people would be thrilled what I already have. And that's why this is a stupid and expensive hobby. I really should be working on the Bronco/Home theater.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

This morning I was washing the car and the rear spoiler lifted a little, I gave it a few gentle tubs and it came right off with no damage! There was three broken clips and tape holding it on. Now I get to track down the right clips and tape to reattach it. In the meantime, it looks stupid:










After the car wash I went out to retune it, I made a few mistakes on the initial tune and wanted to fix them. Instead I wound up removing the sub box and built a trunk baffle, stupid hobbies... 

I had been thinking about doing this for awhile for a few reasons. The biggest is that the top sometimes takes effort to go down because the way the glass sits on the box. over time it developed a bunch of rattles where the rear fo the box sat on the sheet metal and there was no real way to fix it without modding the body itself. There were also rattles from all the plastic bits behind the seats. 

I started by removing the rear firewall and drilled out the spot welds that were holding the three pieces together.










Next up, I used the center piece as a template to make the base of the baffle. Most of the mounting points are on the same plane, so this worked quite well.



















I bolted up the end pieces of the firewall and the baffle:










Next was to trim the gas filler protector to fit with the baffle. A test fitting:










After some more trimming, with the uncut trunk panel in place:










Next up I made the second baffle piece with the sub cutouts and notches for the fuel filler:










With the subs:










From the front:










I will replace the factory roll bar with a much better looking aftermarket one to really clean up the looks back there. I'm ditching most of the plastic behind the seats to get rid of rattles too. I'll be going with a clean carpeted look back there. the fuel door opener is in the center storage bin, so I moved it. The location is temporary until the new roll bar goes in:










Obviously, I still need to seal it up properly and make it pretty again. The top now goes down effortlessly, I lost zero trunk space too.

I did wire it up and turned it on. I set all the sub EQ's flat and gave it a listen. So far it plays deeper than the box did, and gets a little louder. The few rattles I have are FAR more wicked than before, but they shouldn't be too hard to fix, some butyl rope should take care of it. Well worth the few hours I have into it, and the old box is now by the curb for the trash man to pick up tomorrow. I also have the ABS plastic so I can fab up an under dash panel for the driver side.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Today I built the underdash panel for the driver side. It wound up being about 16x16", that was a big hole to fill!

Just some simple ABS plastic cut and bent into the right shape:










And I threw some CLD on it for good measure:










A crappy pic of it in place:










It bolts to a couple factory studs in the firewall, and sandwiches between the dash frame and under dash trim panel. If I need to I can screw it to the dash frame later.

I REALLY hope this makes the dip on my left side go away, as seen here on the blue trace:


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Today I worked on the driver seat, it's hard to show in pictures. Fortunately, because the car is so small, tall people are constantly trying to get more headroom, so all the info I needed to do this was already online.

The seat bottom bolts to the top of that L bracket. I unbolted it, trimmed the seat pan some, the bolted up back up to the underside of the L bracket. In total, this lowered the seat by about an inch. The seat tray now almost slides on the floor.

It feels better while sitting in the driveway, I'll see tomorrow on the drive to work how it feels while driving. Of course, the stage should appear to be a little higher. Also, It'll be easier to see traffic lights!


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## mcgsxr (Jul 19, 2018)

I don't think I've seen IB in a convertible before. Interesting. I have not pulled my CLK apart as far as you've explored, so not sure it can be done with my car.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

mcgsxr said:


> I don't think I've seen IB in a convertible before. Interesting. I have not pulled my CLK apart as far as you've explored, so not sure it can be done with my car.


So far it's working pretty well, FAR better than the sealed box was. I'll seal off the trunk and retune it this weekend. Then I'll just have the rear area to carpet.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I got a bunch done today!

I started by ripping out the trunk baffle, then I chucked half of it in the trash, I kinda wish I had tossed the whole thing, but oh well. The baffle was made up of two pieces of 1/2” birch. Because what I did last week was mostly a proof of concept, the trunk side piece was originally cut very crudely, especially the subwoofer holes. I tossed it and made a new one with much tighter tolerances. I also glued the two pieces together instead of screwing them together.

Speaking of screws, one of the steps was to add mounting studs to secure it instead of the wood screws. 










I wrapped the other side, so I needed to countersink the bolt heads. I filled in the area around the bolt heads with silicone so they don’t spin if I have to remove this piece.










I sprayed the interior side with truck bed liner to make it look better until I cover it up.










I forgot to take pictures on the bench, but this is the trunk side after wrapping with black vinyl.










In that picture you can see that I also sprayed the fuel filler cover in bedliner too. Now I just need to figure out the best way to fill in that gap and cover the fuel filler tube.

I did plug that hole there so no air get through. I removed the original fuel tank access cover from the original firewall by drilling out the spot welds. I then added a piece of CLD to it, put some butyl tape under it, and remounted it. here it is with most of the spot welds drilled out.










While bedliner and silicone was drying, I covered the subwoofer wires with split loom and zip tied them to a factory loom.










Next up I needed to seal the sides of the firewall. One goal was to avoid using spray foam if I could, I just don’t like how permanent and ugly it is. I had a few sheets of Kolosus around, so I used those. This is what the area looked like to start with:










After the Kolosus:










The trim panel fit back into place perfectly, this is important because it directs water from any potential leaks from the top into a drain that is built into the chassis so the water drips out under the car. it’s kinda brilliant actually.

I tossed a scrap piece of Ensolite over the rear area to cover up the mess until I do the proper treatment back there.










What it looks like right, with the baffle and subs in place. This is a higher res picture, if you click on it you can see some of what I did to seal it.










When I ordered the soft top for Ol Smokey it came with this cool 1/2 thick foam with a sticky side, it sticks REALLY well. It’s also squishy, kinda like the Ensolite. Every surface with a bigger gap was treated with this foam. I put butyl tape on the surfaces that mate directly to the firewall. 

At this point I fired it up and was immediately disappointed that it still rattled! I I got out with it playing and heard the rattle outside too, it was coming from under the trunk. I climbed under and pressed on a heat shield directly under the trunk and the rattle went away. The only way to fix this would requiring dropping the exhaust behind the axle, ugh.

I opened the truck to look at the sub s playing, because we all like to do that on occasion, and then I saw it. I hadn’t reassembled the trunk yet, and the screws that hold the fuel filler tube guard were rattling on the trunk floor. I reassembled everything and gave it another listen, no rattles! 

I listened to a few songs and am VERY happy with how it sounds. This was a HUGE improvement over the sealed box. Not only is the bass much louder, but it’s significantly more accurate. You can hear the difference in songs with acoustic instruments. 

There are two annoying problems with the doors, so I fixed them while I was going. One was the left tweeter. it rattles in the door in just the right way that it sounds like the tweeter is blown. I nearly had a heart attack the first time I heard it! But if I push on the tweeter area in the door, the rattle goes away. This is how I originally mounted them:










I don’t like to cut things up if I can avoid it, but I suspect the rattle is from the extended tabs, so I cut them off:










I haven’t verified if this solved the problem yet.

The other problem is the passenger door. It’s a VERY tight fit with all the CLD, Ensolite, and MLV in the door. because of the tight fit, the screw mount for the handle keeps popping out. When it pops out, the door card just flops around. While I was modding the tweeter mount, I investigated why this was happening. This this is what kept popping out:










See those tabs on the side? Those were folded over. I gently pried them back up and popped it back into place. Everything went together well, and the door feels tight now.


Next I went to tune it and I couldn’t find the analog input cable in my glovebox, hmmm. I dug a round and bunch and was able to reach my hand far enough into the dash to feel that I had removed the analog cables from the APL1. I don’t remember doing that. So I pulled the center console and radio housing to add the cable. While it was out I went ahead and modded the factory AUX input so it now plugs into the APL1. 










After cutting off the pigtail I added RCA connectors to it:










Before taping everything up and grabbed my meter and check for continuity to verify that I got everything correct. I didn’t, so I had to de-solder it and start over. After I fixed it:










I put it back together, but had no sound, hmmm. The APL1 was showing signal for both analog and digital, so I moved on to the amp. I fired up TüN and it showed NO tuned at all, strange. There was also a firmware update available, so I did that, the reloaded the tune. Still no sound, but it was telling me there was no digital signal. I must have accidentally unplugged it when I had the radio housing out. It was getting dark so I just closed up the car, and am now wring this. 

Tomorrow I’ll get it working again, and start tuning from scratch.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I spent quite a bit of time tuning today, it sounds good, but I'm not too happy with it. I think I'm gonna toss the whole tune out and start over again.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Tuning in the stupid Texas summer heat is horrible, so I haven't done much. Today I dipped into my travel tech gear and found my USB extender/hub that can run out to 150 feet. With this I was able to have the amp, APL1, mic, and USB sound card all at once, and work from the comfort of the home. The whole reason behind the retune was that I accidentally borked my TA setting when tuning the subs in their new location.

So after tuning the individual drivers, and setting their levels somewhat close to the target curve, I fired up TDA. After playing with the crossovers, TA, and allpass filters I was able to get this:










That is the whole system, left and right + subs. I clearly need to work on fixing some reflections to clean it up some, but it is also my best TDA graph so far. Oh, and it sounds pretty good too!


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

This is a great thread! Your skills make me jealous. Your work ethic is also causing me to feel like a lazy bum. Thanks. ?


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I haven't done much in awhile, but today I installed a new hardtop.

How it arrived: 









Installed:


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## nittanylion64 (Oct 3, 2007)

Very nice. Hard tops look best IMO.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Today I did a little sound deadening in the trunk. One layer of Kolosus and a thin layer of foam on top of it, mostly because i had it laying around. I also stuffed the open spaces with a dense CCF.





































The thin foam cleaned it the gap between the factory carpet and sub baffle pretty nicely. I have a plan for covering the CLD on the trunk lid.


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## Bottombunk (Dec 7, 2016)

I have been working on my 91 recently full overhaul. Just bought the hlcd replacement from steven audio for my image dynamics hlcd from ages ago. Got his 8 midbass for doors as well. Ill be starting a build log soon as well. Weird typically dont care to and just build and move on. After seeing yours i want to give it a go. Your car looks good by the wat.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks! It's hard to remember to stop and take pictures. It's good to do so though, at the very least it's good to have that documentation for later.


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## Bottombunk (Dec 7, 2016)

I agree. Having documentation is good for many things.


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## Bottombunk (Dec 7, 2016)

What is the apl1 exactly? I looked on their site and it im a bit confused. Is this a good item to use in conjunction with a dsp type unit or is that essentially what it is? I have a mini dsp 6x8 and if it makes it all better im interested in getting one.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

The APL1 is a two channel FIR processor. The simplest explanation(but not 100% correct) is that it 4096 bands of EQ for each channel, and it is tuned by using the APL Workshop software.

There are a few threads here that go into detail about them, if you are serious about buying one then you should read all those threads more than once, and keep them bookmarked. It's not the most user friendly gear, but I will gladly jump in and help with learning how to use the software if you do buy a unit.


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## Bottombunk (Dec 7, 2016)

If it adds to the dsp i have on otherwords isnt more of the same then im def interested. I originally looked them up and only found your thread. Ill do a search again. Maybe i just missed the posts. 
Thank you.


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## Bottombunk (Dec 7, 2016)

I just read the more important parts of the apl1 thread. Im definitely getting this. I currently have a mini dsp 6x8 so this works perfectly. Is it easier to get a hold of someone in this forum that sells it or just go direct?


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

[email protected] Contact @Raimonds at that email address to start the ordering process.

Here are the relevant threads:









TDA (Time-domain analysis) - Measurement Software - Review


Here's another review which is a continuation of the APL unit I reviewed some time ago (which was planned before my little ragequit on DIYMA) . All right, here goes: Link here: APL-Review. Here's a link to the official homepage: TDA - Time-Domain Analysis TDA is a measurement software with...




www.diymobileaudio.com













APL1 equalizer system from Acoustic Power Lab


Product Brand & Model: Acoustic Power Lab, APL1 equalizer Condition of all items: new Total Price: 400 euros: Shipping Terms: EMS: Pictures: Acoustic Power Lab :: APL1 Additional info: Hello, I would like to introduce DIY community to new solution which is not so new for...




www.diymobileaudio.com













Comprehensive Review: " APL1 " - Advanced DSP...


External link: APL1 Want to start off this review by saying that this is without doubt one of the better products I've come across for a long time. Many thanks to "Raimonds" here on the forum, the designer of this product - who introduced and let me demo this product. APL1, basically an...




www.diymobileaudio.com





And the APL1012:









APL 1012 - 10ch FIR-based DSP - Review


Few years back I reviewed the APL software and APL1 hardware unit. I already concluded that the APL had a great algorithm to calculate the system sound power response. The APL1 unit is a two channel equalizer which connects in series before the DSP unit in a typical car audio system. You can...




www.diymobileaudio.com





I have both units and can help with tuning on either one.


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## Bottombunk (Dec 7, 2016)

Awesome thank you. Now i need to look into doing a headless source unit. Just want volume knob and practically lossless from phone


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

It's not hard, for an Apple device you use a Lightning to HDMI dongle. Connect the HDMI output into an HDMI audio de-embedder, most have the option for 2ch on their digital out. From you go either coax or TOSLINK to your first DSP. You can find Lightning extension cables on Amazon so you can hide the dongle somewhere in the car. The phone won't charge as fast as normal through the dongle.

I think the process is similar for Android phones, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

It looks like you are in Tennessee, is that correct? I recently moved to Cincinnati.


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## Bottombunk (Dec 7, 2016)

Yes im in middle tn. Murfreesboro to be exact. Its between Nashville and Atlanta basically.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

That's only 6-ish hours away, I'm sure arrangements could be made to so some APL training in person after you have the unit installed.


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## Bottombunk (Dec 7, 2016)

Sounds good. Maybe set it up when there is a car meet and we can take the miatas? Its up to you not sure if you are full on car person but it seems as if you are based on thread and the fact its a miata.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm definitely a car guy, check out my Bronco build thread as well. However, I work in live entertainment and most of my work is on the weekends. So it would most likely have to be a mid-week thing.


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## Bottombunk (Dec 7, 2016)

That works as well. My time off is generally during the week


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Picking up where I left off:









Ugly CLD exposed on the trunk lid. Today I put some Dynamat Hoodliner over the CLD to fill the shallow parts of the decklid frame:









But that is still ugly! One of the benefits of having a car that is super popular to mod is having off the shelf solutions for things. I covered up the ugly with a CarbonMiata decklid panel:









That looks SO much better!

Since I now had a big chunk of Hoodliner around...

The stock hoodliner:









It's not ugly, not good looking, it's totally forgettable. I honestly didn't remember if the car actually had one. Not only is it there, but it is getting brittle, and is much thinner than the Dynamat product. In theory, by switching over to a thicker product, if can lower the frequency where it starts absorbing sound. So I removed the stock liner and laid it on top of the Dynamat to make a pattern:









Then I cleaned the hood. Be careful, those speed holes will wreck your knuckles!









Then I attached the Dynamet Hoodliner:









This was an impulse install, I don't have before / after DB measurements, so I don't know if it is effective at reducing noise. But hey, I now have one less thing to store in my garage!


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