# High End Amp Differences



## MrLister (Feb 17, 2006)

Hey guys, is there a noticeable difference between high end amps?

Can people distinguish between say
DLS, Zapco, McIntosh and say this one is better or best, etc..

or is there just a lot of hype and opinion and "fluff"


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## 60ndown (Feb 8, 2007)

fluff imo.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Yes

Yes

Yes

I got $50 if you can come up with a feasible, working definition of "high end amp." With it, you should be able to answer all your questions in earnest.


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## MrLister (Feb 17, 2006)

Well I see a lot of people spending 1,000+ on a mcintosh amp but then the DLS is just $500. Is the other one even remotely noticeably better (not value for money but just "better") or are people just mcintosh fans, period.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

MrLister said:


> Well I see a lot of people spending 1,000+ on a mcintosh amp but then the DLS is just $500. Is the other one even remotely noticeably better (not value for money but just "better") or are people just mcintosh fans, period.


You have to understand something....with a certain price level....assuming the manufacturer isn't a total fraud....you're getting top notch BUILD QUALITY.....high tolerance parts....bullet proof performance.

Country of origin. WHERE an amp is made will impact the price. In some cases the manufacturers DO NOT pass the saving to the consumers....but thats an entirely different subject.

It all depends on what you want. Do you want an amp that will be reliable for a few years or do you want something that will STILL be going strong in 10 years?

Do you want an amp that can handle a 2 ohm mono load or even a 1 ohm load.....or do want an amp that will be marginally reliable at 2 ohms?

If you're the type that constantly changes gear then an ultra expensive amp isn't for you.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

MrLister said:


> Well I see a lot of people spending 1,000+ on a mcintosh amp but then the DLS is just $500. Is the other one even remotely noticeably better (not value for money but just "better") or are people just mcintosh fans, period.


Actually yes.....McIntosh does have a cult following. But is IS quality gear.

There are MANY amps that I would'nt try if I have to pay full retail...but at a lower price.....I will try them. It's all where you're at in life and where your priorities lie.


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## MrLister (Feb 17, 2006)

GlasSman said:


> You have to understand something....with a certain price level....assuming the manufacturer isn't a total fraud....you're getting top notch BUILD QUALITY.....high tolerance parts....bullet proof performance.
> 
> Country of origin. WHERE an amp is made will impact the price. In some cases the manufacturers DO NOT pass the saving to the consumers....but thats an entirely different subject.
> 
> ...


I fully understand that the cost of an amplifier plays an effect in pricing. My question is, are there noticeable differences between these higher end amps. (not caring about what ohm, durability, etc.. quality only)

On another note, there are a LOT of parts out there where the quality is better in countries overseas than in the US. It is a typical misunderstanding that just because something is made in NA that it's better and should cost more.


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## Duckman (Aug 5, 2007)

I feel a greased slide coming on....


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## andthelam (Aug 9, 2006)

MrLister said:


> Hey guys, is there a noticeable difference between high end amps?
> 
> Can people distinguish between say
> DLS, Zapco, McIntosh and say this one is better or best, etc..
> ...


Let's just say over and over that deadening doors, driver placement, x-over settings, T/A, proper level matching and install have way more effect on SQ than amp brand.


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

Or you could put it another way,
When does the power amplifier become the "weak link".

Clue
(reliability issues aside), clipping.

About the only definition I could give of a "high end power amplifier", is one with true specifications.

Do I win the $50 ?


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Abmolech said:


> Or you could put it another way,
> When does the power amplifier become the "weak link".
> 
> Clue
> ...


Ok, fine. Name the specs. 

No, you don't get the $50 because you know damn well 99.9% of those that buy "high end" amps are _trying _to power stereo.  

The OP seems to be mistakenly equating _worth _with _value_, IMO. Because you can surely find some dudes that fell McIntosh is junk. It's all relative.


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## Thumpper (Feb 22, 2008)

a good high end amplifier does make a HUGE difference
as long as the rest of the system is up to par....

some of the higher end amps for example (Crown amps)
are current servo amps and have an "effective damping factor"
almost 40x higher than the competition....
this gives awsome woofer control with the side effect of tighter
more detailed less boomy bass


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15011

Damping factor pawned by resistance. (or more correctly impedance)

Want to go into another useless specification.

How about crosstalk? 

Regulated power supply? 

The fun will never end.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Abmolech said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15011
> 
> Damping factor pawned by resistance. (or more correctly impedance)
> 
> ...


Lets here it, 

I hear alot of people referring to a higher crosstalk numbers, allowing better stereo seperation (yes i know you perfer monophonic), but what does this really mean........hype?

Always thought unregulated power supplies were better.....Ie no limit to the draw allowing larger dynamic passages, clipping easily still, gotta control the signal.

Rather intrested in knowing


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## MrLister (Feb 17, 2006)

Thumpper said:


> a good high end amplifier does make a HUGE difference
> as long as the rest of the system is up to par....
> 
> some of the higher end amps for example (Crown amps)
> ...


I think everybody knows that a good amp makes a huge difference but the question was a high end amp vs other high end amp.

dls vs zapco vs mcintosh vs tru


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

As a McIntosh owner, I can say the main reason I've stuck with them is reliability and resale value. I've heard other "high end" amps and I can't tell one from the other, including McIntosh. 

I bought a MC420 4x50 in 1998 that's been in two work trucks and a whole bunch of miles of listening. It's never been repaired, never shut down from heat, and still plays perfect. Money well spent in my opinion, for 10 years of service.


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## Fiercetimbo17 (May 17, 2007)

High end amps, your ear will never know the difference, but like was said you getting quality parts, build quality that is second to none, and most of the time outstanding customer service. 
Power is power and a .005% lower thd or higher damping factor might show a difference on a computer but not something your ear will notice. 
My opinion its more of a awe thing, you have a trunk full of mcintosh or zapco or dls your going to get some awe factor going on, if i had the money for the best i would buy it but i dont so i will just keeping hoping to win the lottery soon


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## Fellippe (Sep 15, 2006)

There is a difference....

The high end amps have an ability to "push" the sound out of the driver, and into the cabin.

The regular run of the mill amps do not have this ability as much...

The midbass and midrange energy of higher end amps are also noticeable as well.


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

Crosstalk isn't a useless variable in amplifier design.
An amplifier channel should be independent from the other
and if the user wants to introduce crosstalk, then it would
be a seperate mechanism


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

I know for a fact that amplifiers don't sound the same!


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

> There is a difference....
> 
> The high end amps have an ability to "push" the sound out of the driver, and into the cabin.
> 
> ...


So a genuine "high end power amplifier" capable of 75 watts at 4 ohms, will push better than a low end power amplifier capable of a mere 500 watts at 4 ohms?

Crosstalk?
The ability to attenuate "bleeding" of one channel into another. Here is something to ponder, if your crossover (a frequency dependant attenuator, IE 12 dB = 12 dB less on the next octave) is capable of providing separation of a driver to another, and the effect is dramatic enough for you to respond to it. (IE you cannot discern it playing beyond this) 
How much channel separation do you require?
Clue
If you think you could hear 60 dB difference your fooling yourself.

Easy test.
Set the balance pentameter to one side, now listen (place you ear up against by all means) to the other side.
Cant hear it?
You have enough channel separation.

Further clue.
Stereophonic replay requires no more than similarity of 70 % channel to maintain the stereophonic illusion. (yes I an well aware it requires a goodly number of other parameters as well). So How bad would the crosstalk have to be before the illusion is lost? 

Yep it isn't going to happen in a car.


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

> Always thought unregulated power supplies were better.....Ie no limit to the draw allowing larger dynamic passages, clipping easily still, gotta control the signal.


Regulated to what? 



> t3sn4f2 I know for a fact that amplifiers don't sound the same!


I agree, when I drop them on a pavement, or hit them with a stick, they have a different sound.


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## Thumpper (Feb 22, 2008)

Abmolech said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15011
> 
> Damping factor pawned by resistance. (or more correctly impedance)


 this is very true with a NON SERVO amplifier....

I am refering to "Effective Damping Factor" and the only way
to produce it is with the aid of active current servo's

here is an Article on Damping Factor..pay close attention
to the last paragraph

http://www.monstercable.com/mpc/stable/tech/A2412_Damping_Factor_Article.pdf


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)




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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

http://www.velodyne.com/tech/faqanswer.aspx?ID=38&sid=925l482e

Pay attention to the fact that the servo unit controls the power ampilier. IE this is an add on device.

Also note that it is limited to sub woofers.


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## Thumpper (Feb 22, 2008)

Abmolech said:


> http://www.velodyne.com/tech/faqanswer.aspx?ID=38&sid=925l482e
> 
> Pay attention to the fact that the servo unit controls the power ampilier. IE this is an add on device.
> 
> Also note that it is limited to sub woofers.


not the same thing.....

Crown has their own patented "current" servo's built right
into the amplifier...the current servo's are not limited to
sub woofers only...Crown puts them in all their amplifiers
and they are active thru the whole frequency range


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

So its an impedance regulating circuit.
Will it make an audible difference?
Unless it is poorly setup, or the "control" power amplifier is operating below it impedance rating, nope.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

kenwood built servo control into their car amplifiers years ago. Where is it now? 

So do you like the "crown sound"?


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Please read:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32486


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## Thumpper (Feb 22, 2008)

durwood said:


> kenwood built servo control into their car amplifiers years ago. Where is it now?
> 
> So do you like the "crown sound"?


 Kenwood's servo teck was garbage....

and yes I like Crown Sound.....My system is all Crown power..
by far the tightest sounding system around here..everyone else
is too cheep to spend the cash on good power

take a look at the track record of the JBL/Crown amps in the big comp
circut...those amps have been powering undefeated SQ systems
for the last 6 years or so and are still kicking everyones azzez

http://jbl.com/car/team_jbl.aspx?Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Thumpper said:


> Kenwood's servo teck was garbage....


But it was there for control right? Thank your local marketing department for something that doesn't matter. If the amp is properly designed in the first place, it wouldn't need gimics to sell it. 



> and yes I like Crown Sound.....My system is all Crown power..
> by far the tightest sounding system around here..everyone else
> is too cheep to spend the cash on good power


Good power can be had for cheap today. Some of us just have a better understanding of what "good power" really means and what to focus on. 



> take a look at the track record of the JBL/Crown amps in the big comp
> circut...those amps have been powering undefeated SQ systems
> for the last 6 years or so and are still kicking everyones azzez
> 
> http://jbl.com/car/team_jbl.aspx?Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA



Finally a real measure of performance.


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

True Story;
In the pro audio world, the 'Crown Sound' is famous and it fooled some
people over the years and this inspired me to make a cartoon.

http://www.createforum.com/petereuro/viewtopic.php?t=482&mforum=petereuro


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

thylantyr said:


> True Story;
> In the pro audio world, the 'Crown Sound' is famous and it fooled some
> people over the years and this inspired me to make a cartoon.
> 
> http://www.createforum.com/petereuro/viewtopic.php?t=482&mforum=petereuro


I'm picking up your sarcasm, young man. But I have to admit, the quality of your cartoons really is high end. Nice work.  

Now if you're in for some REAL cartoon action, try loljesus.com (caution: highly offensive).


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## MrLister (Feb 17, 2006)

What we need is a panel of judges and a bunch of amps. Let's see if they notice any difference.

Now coat hanger vs monster http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

MrLister said:


> What we need is a panel of judges and a bunch of amps. Let's see if they notice any difference.
> 
> Now coat hanger vs monster http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-
> between-monster-cable-and/


I was just thinking the same thing, coat hanger vs monster cable.


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

grampi said:


> I was just thinking the same thing, coat hanger vs monster cable.


Im sure the TMA or Sony will sound just as good as the Helix or Zapco DC Refrence amps.. the Soundstream comp set vs the Alpine Pro's..
dose it matter?
will the Hanger vs Monster realy change the way you buy?
the way everyone on here is I would say NO!
your still going to buy 100' of texflex & 120' of second skin
your still going to get Zapco, Audison & Arc audio Amps
Alpine Comps or "DIY" active setups.. 
Over Eq & drop $8k
So Do the test post the out come & Lock the thred..


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## grampi (Jun 29, 2007)

There are basically two things I look for when I'm shopping for an amp; 1) will it produce the amount of power I need it to produce without audable clipping and 2) is it built well enough to last at least 5 years or so. By then, I'm usually sick of it and ready to buy something new anyway.


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## MrLister (Feb 17, 2006)

tr0y_audi0 said:


> will the Hanger vs Monster realy change the way you buy?
> the way everyone on here is I would say NO!
> your still going to buy 100' of texflex & 120' of second skin
> your still going to get Zapco, Audison & Arc audio Amps
> ...


who told you!

PS: it's you're not your (sorry, pet peeve)


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## Fellippe (Sep 15, 2006)

Abmolech said:


> So a genuine "high end power amplifier" capable of 75 watts at 4 ohms, will push better than a low end power amplifier capable of a mere 500 watts at 4 ohms?


For midbass, midrange, and higher frequencies, yes without question...

For deep bass, not really....but most guys run solid state, high wattage for subs anyways. 

Abmolech, get yourself some listening time with these high end amps. It will change the way you see things. Preferably in a home environment to ensure a proper comparison...

I'd be very fascinated to see the EE behind why this is....it's not as simple as Ohm's law.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Fellippe said:


> For midbass, midrange, and higher frequencies, yes without question...
> 
> For deep bass, not really....but most guys run solid state, high wattage for subs anyways.
> 
> ...


How do you explain all the different experiments done over the years where people could not tell the difference between a high end and a crappier amp when compared properly?


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

*I'd be very fascinated to see the EE behind why this is....it's not as simple as Ohm's law.*

It's very simple to explain why the 75w amplifier drives
a woofer better than the 500w amplifier.

It can be one of two things.

1. The 75w amplifier is not 75w as advertised, it does 
more.

2. The 500w amplifier is not 500w as advertised, it does
less.

A third variable. Both the 75w amp and 500w amp are
both lies which adds to more confusion.

The EE behind this is 'test yer amps'.


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## MrLister (Feb 17, 2006)

Amp 1: 500W @ 0.5Ohm
Amp 2: 75W @ 4Ohm

Marketing tricks play a part in it as well. Most of us would get the 75W one in our right minds.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

t3sn4f2 said:


> How do you explain all the different experiments done over the years where people could not tell the difference between a high end and a crappier amp when compared properly?


Some audiophiles are actually convinced the ABX switch itself is enough to impart such an audible difference that it foils such experimentation all together. I enjoy laughing at them quite a lot. 

I think Fellippe's response is not wrong per say, he just hasn't qualified his answer. We know all amps DO NOT sound the same. What we do know is all amps that TEST the same, sound the same. It's all about forcing the amp to play within the parameters set up by biased human beings. Proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Or, wait, is it in the checkbook?


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## Fellippe (Sep 15, 2006)

t3sn4f2 said:


> How do you explain all the different experiments done over the years where people could not tell the difference between a high end and a crappier amp when compared properly?


I'm told that parity amongst amps exist when using test tones...not music.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Fellippe said:


> Abmolech, get yourself some listening time with these high end amps. It will change the way you see things. Preferably in a home environment to ensure a proper comparison...


LOL, you need to read more of his posts. You can figure out his stance and it's very simple in terms of electrical stuff.



> I'd be very fascinated to see the EE behind why this is....it's not as simple as Ohm's law.


No you wouldn't. It's not that glamorus. We already know the factors are.

For comedy sakes, their is so much mis-interpretation and voodoo that floats around about amps it's crazy...for example:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118943

Even better, they have ENTIRE subforums regarding amps of all kinds there. Thy is right, you want to know the EE, test the amps with valid measuring devices and procedures that put numbers to the mystery.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

One of the primary motivating factors for changing people mind's is how they spend their money. Therefore, I propose we create an amp called: "The Super RC SQ Wattifier" and sell it for $11,224,190. Now all we need is the boys from Zuki USA to do the marketing, and voila!


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

When you get into higher end amps. You mostly pay for the level of clarity, detail, refinement. Some people are tone deaf and can not hear differences between amps. Each amp does have it's own sonic signature. The difference are usually very subtle. One things for sure the manufacture dictates the pricing for there amps. Once you get into very hi end amps. The improvements are very little but the price difference is very vast.


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

There is a reason why I limit my visits to the DIYAudio forum.
You have to skip a ton of posts to find the one person who
knows what's going on, plus that forum is divided into
different categories which make things more spagetti.
Over time you learn who are the clever folks if a question
comes up, but for the most part it's very chaotic in responses. 
I was trolling that place recently and ran
into a class H amplifier thread and the electronic geeks
were debating on what is class H and what is class G.
It's funny how even the most clever people are 'human',
this means anyone can do this stuff if you put your mind
to it.


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## Fellippe (Sep 15, 2006)

FoxPro5 said:


> Some audiophiles are actually convinced the ABX switch itself is enough to impart such an audible difference that it foils such experimentation all together. I enjoy laughing at them quite a lot.
> 
> I think Fellippe's response is not wrong per say, he just hasn't qualified his answer. We know all amps DO NOT sound the same. What we do know is all amps that TEST the same, sound the same. It's all about forcing the amp to play within the parameters set up by biased human beings. Proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Or, wait, is it in the checkbook?


There's one test I propose to all of the doubters...

Take the speakers you have in your home stereo and head down to deja vu. It doesn't matter whether it's a cheap POS from Radio Shack, or some nice DIY project or whatever. Just as long as you can connect it to an amp...anything except computer speakers pretty much.

Vu will connect your speakers to a pair of monoblocks retailing for $250,000. This is the amp that has it all....dynamics, smoothness, detail, etc. no trade offs amongst them. Lesser amps can be used but if the point can't be proved with the flagship then the discussion is done. 

I've got good money that you will be blown away by what you hear and will put the spec sheets down for awhile....

I'm telling you right now....he is cool like that and will do any test you like...we can all argue online about specs and stuff, but I'd hope we can all agree that the real world sound is what matters.

Whether the hypothesis is proved or not in the real world shouldn't matter as long as you have fun doing it.

I'm very lucky to be associated to this world of high end....normally I wouldn't as I'd feel awkward going to stores to listen. Here's a good opportunity to see what's up once and for all.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

I think I'm getting an ulcer.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

a pair of mono amps?

So that would dictate you are now introducing reproducing false space into the mix. Space will do all kinds of funny things to acoustics, much more so than electronics.

How about he take ONLY one of his mono amps, put it out in an open field and perform his special tests with whatever measuring equipment he brings with.

The heirerchy goes something like this in the "real world".

Space > acoustics > electronics


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## seagrasser (Feb 6, 2007)

OK, I'm going to go out a limb here.

There has been much discussion abou the sonic footprint of an amplifier, high end v/s low end, engineering v/s voodoo.

My *OPINION* is that you can't listen to an amplifier without speakers, and that the interaction of the two can be varied. Speakers are not static loads and have some less than linear sharacteristics to them. So given a set of speakers, different amps may sound different because of this interaction.

So the question is, can good engineering and design minimize this interaction? Can we design speakers with the amplifier mindset of them being just a transducer that brings nothing added to the signal including said interactions with the signal amplifier?

I hope this adds to the discussion and welcome your insights on this thought.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

THE BEST 75X4 MONEY CAN BUY!! (Don't argue with me ) 

*Eclipse XA4200*


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

drake78 said:


> When you get into higher end amps. You mostly pay for the level of clarity, detail, refinement.


Circuit designers don't know how to design a circuit
for 'clarity', 'detail', and 'refinement'.  

Look it up in any electronics book. Doesn't exist.
What is left is the simple variables that can be tested.

John Curl the famous amplifier designer doesn't know
how. If he gives you an answer and you analyze it, it's
because he fell victim to the audiophiles - who are the
folks paying premium for this stuff and who dictate what
they want inside an amplifier regardless of the effects.

For instance, he started using certain capacitors not
because they performed better, the market demanded those certain brands. To sell product you offer that the
market wants regardless of how lame it is.

See the circle of comedy?

You study amplifier design, you made a killer circuit.

Your boss analyzes your design and wants to make
changes.... he says. 

"Hey, this is the high end market, the audiophiles have
their pitch forks out, tweak your circuit so we can sell product dumbazz".

Do;
* DC coupled input stage
* Get rid of the gain controls
* No crossovers
* 4 stage design - too complicated, make it 3 stage
* Opamps in the design? Get rid of this.
* 85 degree caps? , get 105 degree caps
* Green PCB soldermask? use red.
* Where is the teflon wires?

 

If you do this often enough you start to believe
and that's why many people on DIYaudio.com fail  
People over there are now telling you that small
electronic parts have SQ, the design doesn't matter.


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

*monoblocks retailing for $250,000 *

If the amp cost $10k, it wouldn't be special anymore. lol


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

The human hearing can hear differences in...

-level changes as little as 1dB
-Distortion >1%
-frequencey response changes 1dB (see first one)
-other noises (turn on/off noises, transformer hum, etc)
-channel separation >30dB

Can different amps introduce this? Yes of course. Does it matter?

For those that would rather understand how the human hearing works, rather than oogle over $250,000 pieces of electronic ego:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/human-hearing-amplitude-sensitivity-part-1

http://www.audioholics.com/educatio...an-hearing-phase-distortion-audibility-part-2

http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/human-hearing-distortion-audibility-part-3

http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/human-hearing-reprise-part-4


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

> OK, I'm going to go out a limb here.
> 
> There has been much discussion abou the sonic footprint of an amplifier, high end v/s low end, engineering v/s voodoo.


To figure out the mystery, you have to define what
is high end and what is low end without introducing the
price variable.



> Speakers are not static loads and have some less than linear sharacteristics to them. So given a set of speakers, different amps may sound different because of this interaction.
> 
> So the question is, can good engineering and design minimize this interaction? Can we design speakers with the amplifier mindset of them being just a transducer that brings nothing added to the signal including said interactions with the signal amplifier?
> 
> I hope this adds to the discussion and welcome your insights on this thought.


A decent engineered amplifier can drive a common speaker.

Tube amplifiers may have more issues because those
designs are ancient -> example; T. Edison 1884 
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...50&s1=0307031.PN.&OS=PN/0307031&RS=PN/0307031


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

One way to solve the mystery is trick your friends.

Don't tell them the test, hide the amps.

Get two identical amplifiers and make a simple toggle
switch to switch between amp 'A' and amp 'B'.

Just vary the amplifier gain on one of the amplifiers
when you do the audition.

Watch and be amazed at all the audiophile jardon that
spills from his mouth.


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## MadMaxSE-L (Oct 19, 2006)

t3sn4f2 said:


> THE BEST 75X4 MONEY CAN BUY!! (Don't argue with me )
> 
> *Eclipse XA4200*


My XA4000 still looks better 

-Matt


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Fellippe said:


> There's one test I propose to all of the doubters...
> 
> Take the speakers you have in your home stereo and head down to deja vu. It doesn't matter whether it's a cheap POS from Radio Shack, or some nice DIY project or whatever. Just as long as you can connect it to an amp...anything except computer speakers pretty much.
> 
> ...


Nvmnd...I give up...


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

thylantyr said:


> One way to solve the mystery is trick your friends.
> 
> Don't tell them the test, hide the amps.
> 
> ...


To make the test easier to setup, go to a local car audio store with a variety of amps on a sound board and perform the same test with their eyes closed. You operate the switches. (set the gain on a cheapo amp higher than the gain on an expensive amp for real good fun).


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

durwood said:


> To make the test easier to setup, go to a local car audio store with a variety of amps on a sound board and perform the same test with their eyes closed. You operate the switches. (set the gain on a cheapo amp higher than the gain on an expensive amp for real good fun).


This might confuse them because the different amplifiers will have different outputs. If you limit the test to two
identical amplifiers, the lightbulb turns on and they are
now on the journey to the new world sailing the seas.


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

Why is it that most people cannot hear the "sonic " difference between power amplifiers (assuming level matched and operated with the linear region)?

Because the driver and enclosure (loud speaker) dwarf any variable offered by the power amplifier.

Spend your time and effort on items that will make the most difference.
Space
Replay method
Enclosures and drivers.

If we where to change any of the above items, most people (the great unwashed) could pick the difference with ease.

How about different recording methods and sound engineers "taste"?
Moving your head would create more change than a power amplifier, especially if you are using stereophonic.



Point
Assuming power amplifiers are used within their linear range, they are so far down the list of importance, they barely rate a mention.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

MadMaxSE-L said:


> My XA4000 still looks better
> 
> -Matt


That one's the best as well


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## seagrasser (Feb 6, 2007)

thylantyr said:


> A decent engineered amplifier can drive a common speaker.


Question, is there no feedback from the speaker electrically speaking and do all designs deal with that feedback the same way? If not, are there audible differences from design to design on how this feedback (if it exists) is dealt with?


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## jonnyanalog (Nov 14, 2007)

this thread is useless. People are going to buy what they like/can afford no matter what.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

seagrasser said:


> Question, is there no feedback from the speaker electrically speaking and do all designs deal with that feedback the same way? If not, are there audible differences from design to design on how this feedback (if it exists) is dealt with?


The difference is insignificant and only affects FR. As long as you don't try something retarded like putting a 4 ohm rated speaker on a 8 ohm only stable amp then its not an issue. I think the only change is an EQ type effect which could actually even benefit the particular install environment.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

jonnyanalog said:


> this thread is useless. People are going to buy what they like/can afford no matter what.



Not useless because someone will always come along and run into this inf. and benefit from it. They will not search for it since they have no idea it is a possibility. So throwing it out there will benefit at least one person, it did me.


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## thylantyr (Jan 21, 2008)

seagrasser said:


> Question, is there no feedback from the speaker electrically speaking and do all designs deal with that feedback the same way? If not, are there audible differences from design to design on how this feedback (if it exists) is dealt with?


The feedback from the coiled speaker is similar to this.
http://www.softwareforeducation.com/electronics/notes/AS/Bipolar/inductive-load.htm



> The diode allows the inductor current to die away slowly preventing a damaging back EMF that would otherwise destroy the switching transistor.














An amplifier is different because the speaker is always 
connected whereas the circuit above the coil is turned on,
then disconnected, you get a crazy high voltage feedback.
The amplifier will have low output impedance that can
squash this signal so the output transistors don't blow.

You may find two two diodes per channel on the output stage
on an amplifier as diodes only cost a few pennies. 

See D5 and D6. It's optional on this design because the transistors are rated for 200 volts and
those mosfets are pretty 'tough'.










wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-electromotive_force


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## seagrasser (Feb 6, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> The difference is insignificant and only affects FR.


I think that is my point if you mean frequency response.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

seagrasser said:


> I think that is my point if you mean frequency response.


Yup frequency response, but its not going to be something drastic or even detectable.


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## seagrasser (Feb 6, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Yup frequency response, but its not going to be something drastic or even detectable.


How about in poorly designed "high" sensitivity systems?

I am not aguing that amplifier to amplifier differences are that great, just that in combination with transducers there may be some audible differences.

This is also not a commentary high end/ vs low end designs just yet, just whether there is something to different smplifiers sounding different given speaker interactions.


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