# Still can't dial in the CA18RNX!



## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I've got CA18RNX 7" mids mounted in the doors of my Mazdaspeed6. The doors are deadened with Raammat BXT and ensolite and the drivers are mounted on a 1/2" MDF baffle. Then I have LPG 25NFA silk dome tweeters installed in the sail panels angled about 1 foot in front of the ears of the opposite listener. I have a PPI DCX-730 which allows up to 24db/octave crossovers using LR or butterworth.

My problem is the CA18s sound like ass above about 600-800Hz. Perhaps there is something wrong with them because I really don't understand how people can recommend these drivers. They have painful breakup that I can't seem to tune out.

As a test, I threw my spare DLS Ir3 3" domes on the floor near my kickpanels and did an a/b comparison between these two settings (all crossover slopes were set to 24db/octave LR):

A)
LPG 25NFA = 6.2KHz and up
DLS IR3 = 325Hz - 6.2KHz
CA18RNX = 50Hz - 250Hz

B)
LPG 25NFA = 2KHz and up
CA18RNX = 50Hz - 2KHz

I level balanced both to create as smooth a transition as possible and then started listening. Configuration A sound wonderful without any additional tuning. Midrange is clear, midbass is punchy, and highs are silky smooth without being overbearing. When I switch to configuration B, the highs maintain their detail but the midbass isn't loud enough and the sound appears to get louder and louder as the frequency rises. The range of instruments like trumpet, alto sax, and clarinet is uncomfortable to listen to and sounds like complete and utter ass. Many (but not all) sax notes jump out at me with way too much bite, the bite remains even when I disabled the tweeters.

So based on everyone's experience with the CA18RNX, should I be lowering the crossover point even further? Is there a way to flip/flop the frequency response so the speakers produce more bass and less midrange...perhaps a 6db crossover? I did try a few parametric EQ settings when I first installed the speakers. I was able to reduce the painful frequencies somewhat by cutting 2000Hz, 4000Hz, and 8000Hz by 3db, 9db, and 12db respectively but this removed quite a bit of detail from the previously mentioned instruments and still did not produce an enjoyable listening experience.

My whole point here is to be able to run a 2-way system with 7" mids and compact tweeters and that is what lead me to choose the CA18RNX. It was well within my budget and reportedly could play up to 5KHz. 

Installing my IR3 domes will be a big project because all the wiring behind the kickpanels would have to be relocated (especially the driver's side since I have a manual transmission and need the dead pedal for my size 11.5 feet). So if I can get the CA18s to shine I will be finished with my system!


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

do you have a way to measure fr? Either with an rta or some other sort?

What slopes are you using on the ca18rnx?

I would start by going with a shallow slope up top around 2k, and bringing the tweeter in shallow around 3k, normally I see a natural boost between 1.5k and 2.5k.

You may be able to lower the lp on the ca down to 1.6 and go with a 6db slope to avoid having to eq out any boost or anomolies happing from 1.5 and up. Then you might try a cut around 200-350 and a slight boost around 1k. 

Make sure to try and gain seperation between the CA and the tweet by using shallower slopes, that may be why everything seems so bloated, because you may have a 6-10db bump around 2k.

Also, I find vocals often bloated because of a bad bump around 250hz...


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

No that's not it. The issues from 800Hz on up are prevalent whether the tweeters are connected or not...and that is with using 24db/octave slopes. 

If I were to switch to a 6db slope, I'd probably have to go alot lower than 1.6KHz....I was thinking like 500Hz-1KHz. I think MiniVanMan used a 425Hz 6db crossover example in his most recent crossover tutorial. 

If I used 1KHz, that would put me at -6db @ 2KHz and -12db @ 4KHz, roughly equivalent to a 12db slope at 2KHz but with less volume between 1-2KHz...however it won't do jack for the breakup I can hear above 4KHz.

I don't have an RTA on hand but there is a forum memeber (Astral) that lives nearby that I've been meaning to hook up with for an evening of tuning.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Sounds nutty but do you happen to have anything behind the speaker to reduce reflections coming off the rear?


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

I would NEVER use anything larger then a 12db slope as an lp on a midrange driver. It's just not going to sound natural. And, if the breakup happens above 4k then a 12db slope at 2k would do just fine to bring it down.

You can always add a cut on the eq at 4k to bring the breakup down even more, but it will allow a larger bandwidth for that driver.

NEVER bring a tweeter below 3k. Tweeters never sound natural down that low.

Never cross a midrange sharper then 12db at 2k. If you go any lower, then you need to use a shallower slope. You are seperating the harmonics drastically from most fundemental tones it associates with and will make it sound unnatural, also allowing the tweeter to give it that bite.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

backwoods said:


> I would NEVER use anything larger then a 12db slope as an lp on a midrange driver. It's just not going to sound natural. And, if the breakup happens above 4k then a 12db slope at 2k would do just fine to bring it down.
> 
> You can always add a cut on the eq at 4k to bring the breakup down even more, but it will allow a larger bandwidth for that driver.
> 
> ...


Some big shoes there 

There are tweets out there that do just fine below 3K

Chad


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

chad said:


> Sounds nutty but do you happen to have anything behind the speaker to reduce reflections coming off the rear?


Uh huh, or even something in front funneling the sound and mudding it up. Is this the only speak that has given you this problem it that same install? Maybe removing the door panel and trying it out will eliminate that as a possibility.


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## CBRworm (Sep 1, 2006)

My solution in a case similar to yours was to lower the level of the midbass and then use the EQ raise the low frequency (in my case around 70hz) to get the bass where it should be. 

I had that problem with the CA18RNX, the Adire Extremis, P18RNX, and some others before I realized that I just had the midbass driver gain too high. Ultimately I ended up putting the IR3 mids back in anyway - but at least now I can make it sound very good with 2 way.

Another crazy thing I ran into was the stock plastic grill (which is thick plastic with holes - essentially tunnels drilled through it) was effectively filtering out all midrange from the speaker closest to me. That is ultimately why I went back to the IR3 in the kicks, with the door skins on my midrange left.


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

chad said:


> Some big shoes there
> 
> There are tweets out there that do just fine below 3K
> 
> Chad


 
dude, I'm just in a pissed off and ****ty mood today.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I've covered my bases guys, but keep making suggestions, there might be something i missed.

There is a layer of rammat BXT and a layer of ensolite directly behind the driver. The plastic waffle grill on the stock door panel was cut out and replaced with an MDF ring. The ring is hot glued in place, covered with a layer of BXT followed by another layer of ensolite. A piece of door frame weather stripping was wrapped around the outside of the speaker to create a tight seal between the baffle and the mdf ring attached to the door so the final result looks like this.

What I am hearing is not something that just needs a fine tune...it simply sounds like the drivers were never intended to play above 1KHz. The breakup is promenent with a 2KHz 24db/octave slope so I don't think switching to 12db/octave at the same frequency is going to solve anything. If I were to remove the speakers, is there any particular damage I should look for on the back side that may cause this breakup?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

backwoods said:


> dude, I'm just in a pissed off and ****ty mood today.




It's Monday, Tuesday is the worst day! Turn that frown upside down!

Monday you get to talk about your weekend, etc, Tuesday... The point of no return  

Chad


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

backwoods said:


> dude, I'm just in a pissed off and ****ty mood today.


You really should keep it up, cause I agree with your pissy ass!   

Sure you _can_ run a tweeter down lower than 3k, but why force it? Seems your solution is the 3 way up front, Chulyer.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

chuyler1 said:


> What I am hearing is not something that just needs a fine tune...it simply sounds like the drivers were never intended to play above 1KHz. The breakup is promenent with a 2KHz 24db/octave slope so I don't think switching to 12db/octave at the same frequency is going to solve anything. If I were to remove the speakers, is there any particular damage I should look for on the back side that may cause this breakup?


Just a weird note, I noticed that the cone material of the driver is pretty thin, you aren't seeing any wrinkles in the cone from flexing are you?

Try stuffing behind the driver more, OR take it out of the car, toss it on a baffle and give it a listen to, granted you will ahve no low end but you should be able to hear if something is going on. Have a scrap chunk of wood to baffle it with?

I use deflex pads behind mine, what a difference! Even "hollering into the hole"


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I know I know...but even installing the DLS domes is going to be a hassle. I will have to extend pretty much every wire that comes out of the ECU _and_ the fuse box on the driver's side. It will be a mess. An entire weekend of soldering followed by another entire weekend of fiberglassing...and its November which means I'll be working in the cold.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

chad said:


> take it out of the car, toss it on a baffle and give it a listen to, granted you will ahve no low end but you should be able to hear if something is going on.


Before I installed them I did this and there was noticable breakup running "full range" off about 10 watts but I didn't experiment using any sort of crossover because I didn't have one available at the time. I might have to pull them out and give a serious listen.

If worse comes to worse, can someone suggest an affordable replacement driver? What's the next step up from these in the 7" arena that I could try?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

This what a search showed up http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/search.php?searchid=457957

Madisound PDF for CA18RNX http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/H1215.pdf

Does this show the break-up you're speaking of?

It appears as if it has a pronounced rising impedance.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

chuyler1 said:


> If worse comes to worse, can someone suggest an affordable replacement driver? What's the next step up from these in the 7" arena that I could try?


I'll throw out my vote for the AA Poly 6.5. They fit in my old '03 6 doors no problem. I ran them up to 2500 Hz with no audible breakup, on a factory HU even.  

Maybe a Peerless Exclusive 7?


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Hic said:


> Madisound PDF for CA18RNX http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/H1215.pdf
> 
> Does this show the break-up you're speaking of?


At 60 degrees there is a noticeable rise from 3 to 5KHz. In fact, it rolls off so quickly that if it were to continue it would make a decent 12db/octave slope. Anyway, that could be what I'm hearing. I'm heading home now. I'll try the following based on everyone's suggestions:

CA18RNX = 50Hz - 2KHz + -6db notch @ 4KHz
LPG25NFA = 3KHz and up
I'll try both 12 and 24db slopes and see how it goes. The Ir3 domes are still in the car for a/b comparison.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

This was quite awhile ago but i always loved the sound of the natural roll off of the CA18rnx up around 4.5k with a LPG 26 metal dome at 6.3k 12db. This was door mounted midbass and pillar mounted tweets.


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## Preacher (May 8, 2006)

The home audio guys gripe about this on the CA's quite a bit. My CA21's had similar problems, but I figured it was because they were 8's. 

The playing I've done with the CA18RNX shows a little edge around 1k ish. The P18's would get a bit funny if my HP was set too low or shallow (sub integration). 

I would think that if it is a breakup then the steeper slopes would be better, if its normal rising response then the early shallow seems better (sounds like you've tried all this). I'd consider switching to the P18RNX or Peerless Exclusives. 

Before you leap though I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest a Zobel network. I know there are some people who will argue that it won't do anything apart from a passive Xover; others swear by them on single driver full range systems for controlling the top end edge. I'd be very interested on other's ideas about this.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

I have the same CA18rnx in a 3 way plus sub configuration. Seas Neos + RS 52 above the dash and the CAs at the doors. I have a 3 way setup and also a two way one. The Seas are very smooth, even without LP.

In the 2 way setup I cross them at 2,8 khz 12 db/octave and the neos at 2,8 khz 12db/oct.
I have EQed the mids at [email protected] and the neos are playing just flat.

No breakup at all.They blend very well.

I have used the LPG26s and they are not the best TW for a 2 way setup. 

In fact I like the 2 way setup more for Rock music and the 3 way for acustic and jazz when imaging and detail are more important than dynamics, field where the mids are much better than a 2' dome.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Maybe there is some build consistancy issues on the driver that cause some to rave and others to dispise.

Here's what I did on the way home:
*a)*
LPG 25NFA : 6.2KHz and up @ 24db/octave
DLS IR3 : 325Hz - 6.2KHz @ 24db/octave
CA18RNX : 50Hz - 250Hz @ 24db/octave
*b)*
LPG 25NFA : 3KHz and up @ 12db/octave
CA18RNX : 50Hz @24db/octave - 2KHz @ 12db/octave
-15db notch @ 4KHz (explained below)
*c)*
LPG 25NFA : 5KHz and up @ 6db/octave
CA18RNX : 50Hz @24db/octave - 425Hz @ 6db/octave

For my listening tests I used Wynton Marsalis and the London Concert, ie, solo trumpet with a string orchestra accompaniment. 

Configuration A as I said before is my baseline. I am looking to get the detail and balance from 500Hz-5KHz out of the CA18RNX as I do from the DLS domes...or at least get to a point where they don't sound appalling. 

Configuration B appears to be the "recommended" setup although I really have some painful stuff going on above the crossover frequency and a PEQ band set at 4KHz, a Q of 5 and, a level down to -15db brought it inline so I could at least listen. The CA18s are much more efficient in my problem range than the DLS domes which can be looked at two different ways. On one side I may need to turn up the gain on my domes but on the other side having the domes set low fills out the low end with more bass at moderate listening levels. With the CA18s all I hear is midrange and the midbass gets lost in the shuffle.

After reading MiniVanMan's crossover tutorial I figured I would experiment with a 6db crossover point also. He was using 425Hz for his RS180 example so I dialed that in and left the tweeters at [email protected]/octave. This pulled out a good deal of midrange and it made me realize my problem area stretches lower than 1KHz. I lost alot of sizzle in the trumpets and strings became a little too airy but then I changed the tweeters to [email protected]/octave and it filled things in a little better. 

I did some more switching back and forth between the two new settings and I'm not satisfied with either. Configuration B makes the solo trumpet fat and congested while configuration C lacks a smooth blend of lows and highs and leaves most instruments sounding a little airy. 

I switched over to some rock music and the issues weren't as noticeable anymore. Configuration B had the least amount of low end bass while configuration C lacked attack from guitar riffs. Female vocals rode on top of the music but weren't focused and strong sounding.

Anyway, I don't think I can really do much more without a proper RTA. I have good ears to detect boosted frequencies but I suck at finding frequencies that have been cut. If any of this sounds familar to someone, please let me know what you did to resolve it.


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

In most cars, there is always a problem at around 800-1.5kHz sometimes also at 2kHz ...some people say it is due to the center console(?). The easiest fix is to eq it out...if you have a peq, center it at 1kHz med-wide Q and decrease it by 2-4db. You can also try some deflex pads behind the speaker...it did help abit in my brother's install.


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## Preacher (May 8, 2006)

FWIW
When I had my CA21's in the doors for a short time I had some old Pioneer Titanium tweets on the A-Pillars - I got the best results running this at [email protected] and between 4-5K @6db 

I'll also add that its what pushed me to go 3 Way  

If you said you use a Sub I didn't catch it. When I had the P18's it was a huge difference between 50Hz and 63Hz. At Lower Volumes I could get some great tone up front at 50, but For difficult music and louder listening I got a much clearer midrange at 63 - I'm not entirely sure why, but fwiw.


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## stryke23x (Jun 22, 2007)

couple things i see here. One, your mdf ring is going to act as somewhat of a horn above a certain frequency, likely below your Xover point. You're going to get some wierd diffraction things going on there also. try taking a piece of foam weather stripping and putting it around the ring to see what it does. If you were in the area we could do some measurements.

Secondly, with 1.1mH inductance and being that far off axis, a 7" driver will have a hard time playing up that high. You will likely have cone breakup, and surround resonance below 3Khz also. 

If you were in the area we could set up a mic and really measure what's going on.

John


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

stryke23x said:


> couple things i see here. One, your mdf ring is going to act as somewhat of a horn above a certain frequency, likely below your Xover point. You're going to get some wierd diffraction things going on there also. try taking a piece of foam weather stripping and putting it around the ring to see what it does. If you were in the area we could do some measurements.
> 
> Secondly, with 1.1mH inductance and being that far off axis, a 7" driver will have a hard time playing up that high. You will likely have cone breakup, and surround resonance below 3Khz also.
> 
> ...


Great suggestion John !!

Weather stripping might help with diffraction or sometimes felt across the face around the edge of the driver will smooth things out abit.


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## stryke23x (Jun 22, 2007)

Hic said:


> Great suggestion John !!
> 
> Weather stripping might help with diffraction or sometimes felt across the face around the edge of the driver will smooth things out abit.


Yeah, I wouldn't keep the weather stripping there permanently. It'll give a good idea whether the diffraction is a contributing factor or not though.

John


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Kevin k found the flared baffle for his ATC's beneficial...
excerpt
ATC's come with the flared baffle you see in the pictures that Nguyen was so kind to post. There are also flat baffles and after testing frequency response for both with an AudioControl RTA and Bruel & Kjaer unit, it was determined that sensitivity was higher between 1 kHz and 2 kHz when using the flared baffle.


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

Can the LPG even play down to 2kHz? I thought it was more of a 4kHz and up sort of tweeter. I don't know if I'd expect it to go below 3kHz. Trying to get it to play lower will sound pretty bad.

You really need a woofer and tweeter that overlap a good bit. This makes blending a breeze. I've never been fond of using a woofer and tweeter that could not blend. You can't make them sound good, ever. I just have this feeling, you're tweeter is the culprit. Try crossing higher up towards the 3kHz to 4kHz range.

Keep a careful ear towards attenuation levels between the woofer and tweeter. Many times I find the end sound to be annoying when I'm running one too loud, and people tend to boost the tweeter too much trying to gain some level of false sparkle, detail but at the same time upsetting midrange blending.

The DLS mid will of course be an improvement as you gain a large amount of overlap between each driver, and this makes for very easy blending.


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## Preacher (May 8, 2006)

If you're willing to go 3-way and spend the time doing glass,wires etc. You might think about getting a large format Tweeter considering what Mvw said. That would keep you in the 2-way, but give you some more tuning liberty. The Seas 27 tffgc (H1189) would be a nice match. Low FS. 

I'm still interested to see someone comment on whether or not a zobel could help and why or why not. 

I looked at your install log and it is nice. Nothing missing there


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I am using a 12" OA12 sub set at 40Hz LP @ 12db/octave (xover on my DLS amp). Its installed free air under the rear deck with lots-o-deadening.



> One, your mdf ring is going to act as somewhat of a horn above a certain frequency...


This is definitely something to experiment with however I will add that the issues are there even when I install my 1/2" birch grills.



> Can the LPG even play down to 2kHz? I thought it was more of a 4kHz and up sort of tweeter.


At the levels I am listening at this is not the issue and as I have stated before if I turn off the tweeters the breakup is still overbearingly louder than any of the other sound coming from the drivers.



> f you're willing to go 3-way and spend the time doing glass,wires etc. You might think about getting a large format Tweeter considering what Mvw said. That would keep you in the 2-way, but give you some more tuning liberty. The Seas 27 tffgc (H1189) would be a nice match. Low FS.


Installing a large format tweeter would require roughly the same effort as installing my DLS domes so its either I make due with a 7" and compact tweeter or I'll suck it up and waist a few weekends installing the domes properly.

My concern is that most of you seem to think a 2-4db cut here and there will solve this. I'm trying to stress that it takes 12-15db just to start hearing these things play midbass. Maybe its the horn loading effect or something but they are just outrageously efficient above 500Hz. The PPI has "shelfing" EQ options so maybe I'll experiment with that a little bit also.

Thanks everyone for your help. I'm heading to work and I'll try a few more options on the way.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

I have to wonder a few things....

First, If you are having problems with too much 800Hz, I can tell you the distance from the speaker to the center console is almost exactly the same wavelength as that distance in the Mazda6. As an experiment, try taking some ensolite or foam and taping it to you lower center console just to see it that helps any.

Two, I have to wonder if your nice trim rings/grills you made are also creating the ringing effect. The diameter of those is right around the size that might create some unwanted ringing ariund 2Khz which could also create some problems around 1Khz (harmonics) since the woofer is set back a bit. The fact that is so far off axis can really accentuate this. Does this ringing occur only on the drivers side or both sides?

Last thing, might want to check your door. I got back in mine this week to track down some strange noises. First, I ripped out those hard foam pieces. Lots of raamat and ensolite repalced them. Second, I found that the cable tied to the window motor could rattle against the backside of the black door panel. I strategically placed some ensolite back there so it would no longer vibrate there. It's possible the window rail attached to that door panel may also rattle up there, I don't know for sure because my mids don't play that high.

Last thing I did was add some ensolite on top of the door right by the window. I wrapped it around the edge so that the door card would be more isolated from the actual door. 

I hope these suggestions help. I have a feeling it's car related and not the speakers, but who knows.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

Lets' try some things!

First, check the acousitc fase between the mids. There is always one that sounds best, more bass and centered image. 
Disconnect the TWs. 
Much of the bass you feel comes from the sub. If it blends well with your mids, it should be difficult knowing from where bass is coming.
After setting the correct fase for the mids, check the sub fase looking for good bass and good blend with you mids. 
Set a good amount of time delay to all speakers but you sub, with the 701, I start at 5.00ms. The sub is the farthest speaker so you have to delay everything else. Yoy could set the time delay for your left mid at this time. Easy, just look after a centered midbass-mid image.
All this will help with midbass-bass integration.
A good LP poin for the sub is 60Hz/12

The LPGs are not suited for a two way frontstage with a 7 inch driver.
Try using the IR3 domes as they were tweeters, from 2,5khz and up, just for testing. [email protected]/18db, [email protected],5khz/12db/oct, [email protected],5/12db/oct.

I use the PEQ at 400hz -3d and at 2khz =3db.


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## Preacher (May 8, 2006)

> The LPGs are not suited for a two way frontstage with a 7 inch driver.


That's probably true considering most woofers that size, but there have been more than enough people using this exact combo to write that off entirely. The old Diamond Hex used an LPG rebadge. 

Midrange trash could be a problem of phase, but not likely at the levels he's throwing out. Still playing one side at a time and fiddling with phase could reveal whether or not its a woofer defect or installation issue. I figure chuyler had done these things. 

We'll probably not get much more until he gets it RTA'd - Thou Shalt post the results. I get more from these specific troubleshooting threads than anything else. (I learn more from trial and error than trial and success).


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

durwood said:


> First, If you are having problems with too much 800Hz, I can tell you the distance from the speaker to the center console is almost exactly the same wavelength as that distance in the Mazda6. As an experiment, try taking some ensolite or foam and taping it to you lower center console just to see it that helps any.
> 
> 
> > I'll give this a shot tonight. It sounds reasonable, but would it cause more than a 6db gain?
> ...


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

chuyler1 said:


> I'll give this a shot tonight. It sounds reasonable, but would it cause more than a 6db gain?


Well sounds stupid, but stick your head down near the bottom of the seat with the door closed. You will be surpised how much sound gets trapped down there. The door and center console are pretty much parallel to each other. While listening with your head down there, crack the door open and see what happens.


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

I think your problem is related to having a lack of midbass. It seems that you are wanting to attenuate alot in the midrange...when the problem seems to lie in the midbass.

Try flipping the polarity in one of the mids and see how it goes. One side might be out of phase thus decreasing the percieved midbass response. After playing with polarity, try to boost in the midbass at around 80-100Hz by atleast 3db.

Try also to play with crossover points and slopes between midbass and sub...you might be experiencing some cancellation in the midbass by the subbass since you are using only a 12db slope for the sub, then your crossing your mids at [email protected]e will be some interaction between midbass and sub which may cause some phase shifts. Try your sub at [email protected], your midbass at 70-80Hz @ 12 or 24db slope.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

I think playing with crossover points is key, I mean after of course you have your driver mounted properly. Just yesterday I was playing with crossover points on my setup (8 in the door, 4 in the kick, tweeter in the apillar), and after about an hour the best crossover points that sounded the smoothest were 60hz-150hz (24db,6db), 140hz-1.6k (12db,6db), 4k (6db).

Notice my underlap between the mid and tweet. All the imaging cues are there even though there is this underlap. Just my .02


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

1.6K and 4K with a 6db slope...very interesting. What tweeters are you using?


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Quick question, have you tried turning everything off except the mids and listening to how they sound? It would tell you immediately if you have a balancing issue or crossover issue, or if the problem lies with the mid itself.

Also, how restrictive is the door panel covering over the mid?


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

i am using the seas neo tweeter


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Chuyler has pictures of the drivers installed with and without a grill, NP.

On page 1 at the bottom, I think


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

npdang said:


> Quick question, have you tried turning everything off except the mids and listening to how they sound? It would tell you immediately if you have a balancing issue or crossover issue, or if the problem lies with the mid itself.
> 
> Also, how restrictive is the door panel covering over the mid?


Yes, for the most part my subwoofer has remained off for the past few days and I have been toggling the tweeters on and off but as I have said before if I start with a 6db crosover on the mids at 400Hz and slowly increase it the harshness/breakup/whatever comes in to play starting at about 500-600Hz and gets progressively worse up to 3KHz. At 2KHz, even if I set a 24db/octave slope the harshness is still there.

The door panels have a good seal from the factory with only a small opening in the upper rear corner which was covered with raammat bxt. There are the usual number of open screw holes for door clips and stuff which I did not make any attempt to cover and the drain holes at the bottom remain untouched.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

chuyler1 said:


> Yes, for the most part my subwoofer has remained off for the past few days and I have been toggling the tweeters on and off but as I have said before if I start with a 6db crosover on the mids at 400Hz and slowly increase it the harshness/breakup/whatever comes in to play starting at about 500-600Hz and gets progressively worse up to 3KHz. At 2KHz, even if I set a 24db/octave slope the harshness is still there.


I just went out and measured the distance in my mazdaspeed6 from the door to the center console. Guess what it measured? ~58cm which is......exactly the wavelength for 600Hz. 

Interesting calculator(s). They have one for wavelenght calcualtion if you're lazy like me. But this one is very interesting too. Might provide to be enlightening.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-roommodes.htm


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

None of the pics are working for me?

How does the grille that covers the front of the driver look?

So with the mids only, you're getting very bad harshness starting at probably 1khz or so?

I know it's easy to blame the drivers but 99.9% of the time in car audio it's the install and listening space that's the problem.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12887&page=3


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Grills are a basic ring of 1/2" birch ply with grill cloth stretched over the front and wrapped around the sides. There is no metal mesh or anything across the opening. The cloth can be seen moving with the music when the volume is turned up which means most of the sound is going out into the cabin and not getting trapped between teh baffle and door panel.

Yes, with just the mids there is harshness across the upper range for saxaphone, clarinet, and trumpet. It may start as low as 600-800Hz Imagine listening to a jazz sax soloist but every time they reach for the octave key their notes jump out and spike your ears forcing you to turn the music way down.

This is my first attempt with 7" drivers but I have always had great success with 6.5" drivers...I figured it couldn't be all that bad. In my wife's car I've got a DLS Iridium 6.2 set running active. The doors only have a single layer of dynamat on the inner door skin, the stock plastic waffle grills, and a basic 1/2" baffle. The tweeters are mounted in the a-pillars. This setup, with no tuning aside from a 12db/octave crossover @ 3.5KHz sounds pretty damn good. Much better than my current setup with copious amounts of deadening and almost double the amplifier power. I also had great luck with my old Eclipse 6.5" components (made by Vifa) running active in several different installs. Never did I hear the breakup that I'm getting from these CA18s.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Heavy deadening, nice baffles, more amp power ... those things aren't going to fix a diffraction issue. I really like your door panel, but I think the way the driver is recessed in there probably exasperates your problem.

Without listening to your car, unfortunately I can't give any solid advice. But it seems like you know where the issue is, so it's just a matter of going in with the EQ and tuning. I'm a bit surprised to hear that you aren't getting any lower mid resonance. Especially with such heavily deadened doors generally I find between 200-400hz requires a heavy cut. Typically I've also noticed that 1-1.5khz requires a bit of a steep cut as well. I've really yet to see any door installed paper cone mid require a cut above 2khz though, so I would work on that region first. If you're getting any kind of weird "hollow" effect in the midrange you might try cutting 600hz.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Thank's npdang. I'm going to switch back to the 12db slope at 2KHz and experiment with 400Hz, 1KHz and perhaps 600Hz so I can narrow things down a little better for you guys. 

Does anyone know what level Q I should be using on the DCX-730 for these types of cuts? Since I don't have an RTA on hand I haven't really experimented with what Q works best for a typical boost/cut.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Start with a wide Q of about 1, and go for some deep cuts -10db to hear if it improves anything. Then as you want to fine tune, you can move to narrower (if appropriate) Q's and less drastic cuts. I would try from 1-2khz and see if that helps.

This is a rather good explanation of how to calculate Q and what it means:

http://www.bcae1.com/equalizr.htm

I would leave the tweeter and sub off while tuning, as it can complicate things. Picking the correct crossover points and rolloffs for both the mid and tweet will be critical as well, to avoid that agressive upper mid sound.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Sat in the car for about 45 minutes and this is what I came up with. First I wanted to isolate the issue and I did so with a 24db/octave crossover on the passenger side midrange playing by itself. I started the xover at 400Hz and worked up. Using 30 seconds of a jazz song which contained light drums, piano, and clarinet in the mid to upper range I was able to determine that the problem is above 800Hz. I first start to hear the noise (which sounds like perhaps the baffle or inner door skin is resonating) as I increase the crossover point from 800Hz to 1KHz and it gets more piercing as I go further into 2Khz and 3KHz and after that I really can't gauge how much worse it gets.

A few other things I tried while listening to a variety of music:

*Boost 100Hz 3-6 db with a Q of 1.* This fattened up the low end and with my 24db/octave crossover at 50Hz the speakers didn't mind the extra work. It made them a little muddy but I only noticed that if I went too far. I backed down to +3db and left it for the remainder of my testing.

*Cut 400Hz 3-6 db with a Q of 3.* This took some "fluff" out of guitar work but was barely noticable during other music. If there are issues here, they are miniscule compared to the upper register problems I've been having.

*Cut 1.2KHz 6-12 db with a Q of 3.* When I had the xover set at 2.5KHz this helped take some of the edge off the solo clarinet but it wasn't enough. Even a wider Q couldn't cover the whole problem area but it did allow me to turn the volume up a tad more than before.

*Bring back in the tweeters and subwoofer.* When I decided to test some of these new settings I ended up lowering the tweeter gain by an extra 6db from where it was set previously. I also increased the crossover point of the sub from 40Hz to about 50Hz to give it more action. At 40Hz it was just rumbling and sounded very loose. At 50Hz it added more emphasis to the punch created by the front speakers while still not pulling the sound back. Finally, I dialed in the following two settings for comparison:

*a)*
LPG 25NFA : 5KHz @ 6db/octave and up
CA18RNX : 50Hz @ 24db/octave to 425Hz @ 6db/octave
DLS OA12 : 50Hz @ 12db/octave and down
100Hz +3db Q1
400Hz -3db Q3
4KHz -6db Q5
*b)*
LPG 25NFA : 3KHz @ 12db/octave and up
CA18RNX : 50Hz @ 24db/octave to 2KHz @ 12db/octave
DLS OA12 : 50Hz @ 12db/octave and down
100Hz +3db Q1
400Hz -3db Q3
1KHz -6db Q3
4KHz -6db Q5

*Trumpet:* Configuration A had a very deep and airy sound stage. The trumpet sounded somewhat distant but still had a fullness to it. There was very little "ringing" even at high levels. Configuration B was almost the opposite. The trumpet became nasely and in your face. The detail was still there but attacks would bite too much before settling in.

*Piano:* Both configurations excited the door panels on the lower registers when turned up loud. Attacks again on configuration B detracted from the listening experience. Configuration A showed some sign of high end distortion at loud levels and would reveal the issues promenent in configuration B.

*Rock Music*: Configuration B actually had a slight edge over configuration A while listening to Lacuna Coil. The "in your face" stage produces loud and up front guitar riffs while not over powering the midbass or cymbals. The female vocals didn't seem to get emphasized like trumpet and clarinet. Configuration A was more laid back and allowed emphasis on midbass (toms, kickdrum, bass guitar) instead of lead guitar.

*Pop Music*: Michael Jackson's Thriller sounded great with the boost at 100Hz on both setups. There was too much going on in the rest of the music for me to make a clear distinction between these two setups.

*Folk Music:* I threw in a live recording of James Taylor and configuration b brought out some raspiness in his voice while configuration a kept it silky smooth.

I don't know guys, I keep coming back to the 6db crossover slope. I tried raising it to 500Hz or 1KHz but it just sounds right at 425Hz. I can still hear some peaks depending on the music and volume but overall it is much more pleasing to the ear than raising the crossover point to 2+KHz and using a 12db/octave slope. 

However...after tonight I'm starting to think the inner skins of my door need more deadening. I slapped a few pieces on here and there but didn't cover the whole thing like I usually do because it was plastic and I figured I might want to remove it at some point....but I'm willing to bet that the high frequency spike is coming from the plastic getting excited. Perhaps a 6db slope dulls the impact of its resonant frequency and allows me to listen to the midrange without it barking into my skull. Thoughts?


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## Preacher (May 8, 2006)

I'm going to go out on a limb again  Consider putting a Coil for a first order on the woofer giving the shallow slope at 425 then using your digital at 24 to smash whatever top end interacts with the tweeter. This could give you even more control over your EQ to make up for losses.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I can probably achieve the same effect with a high Q shelfing cut with the PEQ. I am essentially doing that now with my -6db cut at 4KHz since the upper range of the frequency response chart for the driver shows that to be a problem spot.


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## backwoods (Feb 22, 2006)

make a track of test tones going in 100hz increments. listen to these and see what frequencies jump out at you and which ones don't sound natural. If you have some headphones available, switch between the two to give you an idea.

Write down your results as you come across them, it may give you a better idea of where those peaks are, and what frequencies are sounding like poo.


Starting to sound like maybe you just don't like that driver.


One important note, when comparing with the dome, make sure to use similar xover points. Normally drivers playing the wider range, will naturally tend to sound better in a comparison.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

A brief measurement would probably help tremendously. Backwoods advice is very good as well.

It's not unusual in home audio to use a first order filter at around that frequency to compensate for the effect of a narrow front baffle, and I've done similar stuff in the car as well. If you look at how narrow the baffle is around the driver, combined with the recessed mounting it could very well be the correct filter to use. I would just be a little careful that I didn't choke down too much of the top end.


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## mghunt (Jun 26, 2007)

Chuyler,

keep in mind that the two different crossover slopes you are using have different effects on phase. It may be that the amplitude of the offending frequencies is the same between the two crossover settings, but the phase is likely different.

I'm running the CA's in my Mazdaspeed3. I really like the midbass output, but I'm having imaging and harshness issues. I think it's due to reflections, but I can't tell. I heavily deadened the inner and outer door skins. I think it might be the door panel and lack of fabric upholstery in the car. I noticed the same issue with the Bose system too.

I'm thinking about putting some absorbing material behind them and deadening the inside of the door panel.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

mghunt, for the post part I have been using the same crossover slope for the LP on the mid and HP on the tweet. Right now I'm using the 6db setting outlined above but after a few days of listening I've realized that I am just cheating myself. There is very little dynamic range with the upper mid cut so drastically. Although I get detail when listening to classical music, rock music just sounds dull and lifeless. 

I have done many installs with "plastic" door panels but this is my first with a plastic inner door skin. Since the MS3 has the same setup I wonder if we are both hearing the inner skin resonate. If you check out my photos posted earlier in the thread (or click the build log link in my signature) you will see I have added plenty of deadener on the backside of my door panel. I can't say for sure that will help you but I can say that even with that deadener I am having problems.

Tomorrow I am going to meet up with Oleg (Astral on this board) and he is going to help me with this RTA in exchange for me helping him swap out some springs on his RX-8. I plan to take some base readings of the CA18 mids by themself, some readings of my various crossover settings, some readings with the door panels off, and finally if there is time I am going to attempt to install some extra 6.5" mids that he has. The last part will require making new baffles so I may not get to it tomorrow...but for sanity sake I would like to hear another driver in my car to make sure I'm not going crazy. Anyway, I will get some screen shots and post my results.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Ok folks! The moment of truth!!!! Oleg and I spent about an hour and a half today taking measurements and experimenting with some EQ and crossover settings. 

*Tuning setup:*
TrueRTA software running "quick sweeps" sending output to an MAudio MobilePre. The MobilePre fed directly into the PPI DCX-730 using a spare set of inputs. Input came from a ECM??? mic feeding back into the MobilePre. Some of the high freqency responses may vary because we did not have a mic stand to keep the mic in a single spot for each test.

*Step 1 -- full range response of CA18RNX*
I was actually quite impressed with the response we got right off the bat. It showed the driver could easily play down to 40Hz and made it up to 3.8KHz before rolling off.










*Step 2 -- crossover for CA18RNX*
We initially chose a highpass point of 50Hz @ 24db/octave and a lowpass point of 2.5KHz @ 12db/octave.










*Step 3 -- EQ tweaking*
Next we used a few bands on the DCX to clean up the response. 
*150hz q=6 +10db*: This leveled out the dip in midbass response.
*480hz q=1 +6db*: This added some more midrange, we tried to cover a wide range...I'll probably have to mess with this some more after extensive listening.
*3.7khz q=4 -6db*: If you go back to the 1st graph you can see a peak after the rolloff begins, this tweak was to smooth out the rolloff that we were seeing. Although it is above the xover frequency it will still be audible.










*Step 4 -- Response of the LPG 25NFA tweeter*
No surprises here. It played down to about 3KHz and rolled off smoothly.
Since it was already rolling off at 3Khz, we chose that as our crossover point and used a 12db slope.










*Step 5 -- full range response*
We did some level matching to get the tweeter and midbass close to the same output level (this mean lowering the midbass an additional 6db). Then we realized we had to raise the midbass LP point to at least 3KHz. There looked to be some cancelation so I reversed the tweeter polarity but that didn't solve it. Finally I changed to a 24db slope and that helped a little more. I may actually have to overlap the crossover points but we were short on time so I let it be for now.










*Step 6 -- that nasty resonating frequency*
I threw in my clarinet recording and the chart below is what popped out when the clarinetist hit a note that would just ring our ears to death. We tried lowering each of the harmonics but both agreed the only change that made a significant difference was cutting 780Hz by about 6-10db with a Q of 7. It didn't get rid of it completely but it calmed it down so it was at least bearable.










*Some final thoughts*
So why is it this shrill clarinet issue doesn't really appear on the charts? I don't know, it isn't smooth from 500-3KHz but it doesn't look nearly as bad as this one note on the clarinet (and also trumpet and piano) sounds. Its very odd. Anyway, this was a great learning experience and after some listening on the way home I feel we have at least made some improvements. When I got home I whipped up some 6.5" baffles and I'm going to try my luck with a set of Adire SF-7's. I don't know anything about them but I'm just trying to see if maybe there is an issue with the CA18s or an issue with something possibly resonating in my door.

Any comments or suggestions based on the RTA results above are more than welcome!!!


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

sheesh, I post graphs and no one responds?


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

chuyler1 said:


> sheesh, I post graphs and no one responds?


I'm just waiting to see how the Adires work out.

If a driver gave as much headaches as your CA18's have, they'd be in the FOR SALE section quicker than you could say "2 bit whore".


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Chuyler. 

Have you ever tried the drivers without the inner plastic door skin installed?

I'm not sure if thats even an option but since it's an area of suspision it would be where I'd start if at all possible.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

After looking at your install thread I realize how you couldn't install the speakers in the doors without the plastic sections. 

Try some test boxes.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I don't have the means to set up an accurate "bench test" outside the car. I suppose I could fab up some enclosures for my home theater but that'll take more time than I'm willing to put into this.

I've got baffles made for the Adire mids. I just need to find some time to meet with Oleg again so we can pull the door panels off, swap out the CA18s and do some measurement and listening tests. He has a garage...I do not...and it has been about 40 degrees lately...so it will have to wait.

They may be up for sale soon...but I'd have to find a suitable replacement. The Adires are only 6.5" so they are going to look a little silly in my doors. All of the other SEAS 18 cm speakers will drop right in but the problem is that none of them are suitable up to 3KHz except for maybe the ER18. I'd love to upgrade to one of the Excel mids but according to Zaph, both should be crossed at a max of 1800Hz...but I haven't done any research on this board to see what others are doing yet.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

I'm just going to jump into it.

What kind of weighting did you use on your measurements? This will have a big impact on your level matching.

Where was the mic positioned?

Windowing and spatial averaging play a huge role in what kind of results you will see. Some will even argue you need a binaural measurement to get any kind of useful data. So an RTA with a fixed time window and no spatial averaging may or may not be helpful in diagnosing a problem, as your ears will be the final judge.

Looking at the fr plots above, I would have eq'd it differently. I see a big resonant peak at 250hz, which I would have removed. Next, I'd use a big wide Q cut centered at 800hz to remove all that upper midrange glare. I'd then try the mid without any lowpass filter and roll that into the tweeter. Make sure you have B or C weighting on otherwise the tweeter level maybe too bright... I'd probably set this one by ear.

Btw, have you listened to that clarinet recording on a reference system... say a nice HT or headphone setup? Sometimes certain tracks are just meant to be forward sounding.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I've listened to it on many different systems that I have owned including my cheapo computer setup and a pair of Kenwood headphones, and some ipod style ear pods...the clarinet in this recording is forward, but it doesn't have any bite to it, and it never rings in my ears even at full volume.

What is "weighting"?

The Mic was positioned above my right shoulder as I sat in the driver's seat with the tip of the mic about 2" in front of my nose. Angling and moving the mic had a pretty big effect on the tweeter response but midbass response was relatively the same no matter where I put it (higher/lower/forward/back).

So using the graph below which is the full range response of the CA18, you'd suggest the following?

-Cut the hump between 180-350Hz so it is level with the response at 150Hz and 400Hz.
-Cut the hump between 600-1.7KHz so it is level with 500Hz and 2KHz











Is that the jist of what you are suggesting?


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

Do you have a graph with the midbass polarity reversed?


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

No, I just reversed the polarity on the tweeter to reduce some cancelation at the crossover point.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Yep, that's the gist of it. I'd also push the tweeter crossover point to 6khz, 4th order. Looks like you could use some work around 3-4khz as well.

This is a weighting curve... with no weighting curve, I would forget what the RTA told me and adjust the tweeter level by ear alone.


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

Try reversing one of the mids...and choose which sounds the smoothest prior to eq. I would suggest doing what npdang suggested. Leveling up the peaks with the dips by attenuating rather than boosting the dips.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Chuyler1,

Some different weighting for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting

excerpt
B weighting curve has fallen into disuse, but most sound level meters provide for A or C weighting, and some also provide D-weighting which was specifically designed for use when measuring high level aircraft noise in accordance with the IEC 537 measurement standard. The large peak in the D-weighting curve is not a feature of the equal-loudness contours, but reflects the fact that we hear random noise differently from pure tones, an effect that is particularly pronounced around 6 kHz. This is because


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

With cheapo stuff... I notice they tend to accentuate the upper freq's beyond 10khz... which is why you notice they sound a bit thin, and lacking weight. It could explain why you are getting more bite and body to the clarinet than you are used to. Alot of cheapo Aiwa and bookshelf systems have a big suckout in the midrange... that's why it's all upper end sizzle and low end boom... but you won't have the issue of midrange glare.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

npdang said:


> Yep, that's the gist of it. I'd also push the tweeter crossover point to 6khz, 4th order. Looks like you could use some work around 3-4khz as well.
> 
> This is a weighting curve... with no weighting curve, I would forget what the RTA told me and adjust the tweeter level by ear alone.


6KHz really? I did have a 6db cut at 3.7KHz which was incorporated into my final plot.

I'm not sure what type of weighting TrueRTA uses. I don't see an option to change it.



npdang said:


> With cheapo stuff... I notice they tend to accentuate the upper freq's beyond 10khz... which is why you notice they sound a bit thin, and lacking weight. It could explain why you are getting more bite and body to the clarinet than you are used to. Alot of cheapo Aiwa and bookshelf systems have a big suckout in the midrange... that's why it's all upper end sizzle and low end boom... but you won't have the issue of midrange glare.


I play in a community band so my reference is usually the actual instruments. In the case of these clarinet recordings, the clarinet is the only instrument playing so it isn't in reference to lows or highs, especially since it occurs without the tweeter playing.


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

I agree with npdang on crossing at [email protected] slope. In your graph, your mid rollsoff very slow up to 5kHz...so when you cross the tweeter at 6Khz...it will overlap nicely and you won't need to eq down 3-4kHz anymore.

Listen to your clarinet cd in a well setup home system or in a good headphone setup to know how it really sounds. Not all recordings are recorded good...and in most cases doesn't sound as good as the real thing.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

So where should I pick up with the tweeter? 6KHz? The thing is, even though the mid plays up to 5KHz, the tweeter provides much better detail in that range.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Yeah.. just try and see. You never know how it will turn out.


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

It's hard to suggest things over the net...and results vary greatly. But in my friend's system, I crossed the tweeter at [email protected] and the mid lowpassed [email protected] overlapped nicely without any eq in 3-4kHz region. It's trial and error...and depends on how you like the sound.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I tend to enjoy such gaps in crossover points initially but after going through lots of recordings I realize what is missing from the music. I can never trust my ears right off the bat, I have to leave, listen to stuff outside the car, then get back in after a day and the first 2 minutes of my ride to work are the deal breaker. After that my ears adjust again and I don't notice anymore. 

I'll do some more experimenting now that I have a visual of the response graph of the CA18s but I think it is going to keep coming back to that harshness between 800-2KHz. If things clean up with the Adire speakers I may just bite the bullet and purchase a set of ER18s and see how they turn out...otherwise I'll be looking at fabbing up new rings and grills for my doors...not an impossible job...just a task I don't want to worry about over the winter.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

-Cut the hump between 180-350Hz so it is level with the response at 150Hz and 400Hz.
-Cut the hump between 600-1.7KHz so it is level with 500Hz and 2KHz

OK, I tried your suggestions this morning on my way to work...
Band 1: 80Hz +3db Q5 low-shelf
Band 2: 250Hz -10db Q2.5
Band 3: 1KHz -6db Q1
Band 4: 3.7KHz -6db Q6
Tweeter HP: 6KHz 24db/octave
Midbass LP: 6KHz 24db/octave
Midbass HP: 50Hz 24db/octave

This brought out some midbass at low listening levels but once I got on the road the only affect it really had was that I had to turn the volume up higher. The breakup was much more obvious in male vocals and there was a little bite to female vocals. Trumpet was too edgy and lacked smoothness.

I am pretty sure at this point that tuning is not going to solve the problem. It is either something in my doors that is breaking up the sound or it is the speakers themselves. Turning down the 1KHz region is just a bandaid...but once that frequency range reaches a certain volume it will still do the same thing.

I also tried a 5KHz crossover point but I couldn't differentiate between that and 6KHz other than maybe a little higher sound stage due to the tweeters getting more of the frequency response.

When I switched between the new setting and the old one derived from Oleg there was just the added midbass that sounded different and some lack of detail that was replaced with unfocused slush.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

My suspicions have been verified. I was let go from work early today so I went home and installed the Adire SF-7 drivers so I could do some listening tests. Right off the bat I noticed a vast improvement in midrange clarity. The Adires were overall less sensitive than the CA18s dispite being a 4 ohm driver. I bumped the mid level back up 6db to get the level closer to the tweeters. I installed the left first and did some left-right comparisons with the CA18s both with the door panel off and on. The Adires produced a more full midbass tone and then rolled off nicely to blend with the tweeters. The CA18s on the other hand emphasized the midrange with a harsh tone that as I stated before made me want to turn the midrange down and increase the midbass. Once i started increasing the volume the Adires really started to shine. While the CA18s would just break up more, the Adires further emphasized midbass while staying true through the midrange. On our way to dinner my wife commented that she could no longer distinguish the tweeter from the mid and the vocals were much more focused. I'd call that a success...but unfortunately the speakers are on loan and I'll have to give them back  I guess it is time to shop for something new.

When I meet up with Oleg again I will have him RTA the system before we remove the speakers. Maybe it will reveal some problem areas with the CA18s but I doubt it. I thought for a minute it could be an issue with the DLS amps running at 8 ohms but then I remembered I tried the speakers bridged to the A8 to get 4ohms per channel and that didn't make any difference.

There is some other good news though, the Adire speakers mate up perfectly to my trim rings and the screws are not visible. I guess that means I can widen my search to include 6.5" drivers as well. I may lose some midbass output but at least I'll have midrange clarity.


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

The Adire sf7 is a high qts driver...so it will perform better in midbass than the ca18rnx when used IB in the doors. The adire would have a hump at around 80-150Hz which makes the sound fuller and thicker.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Damn sorry to hear it didn't work out for you. Sometimes it's just easier to swap drivers and just be happy, I've certainly been there before.

I've done some pretty amazing CA18 installs though, but I can't tune a car over the internet. FWIW, I always thought they were relatively easy to work with and the resolution while not great, was quite good. There's definitely no breakup at the frequencies you're describing, so I'd have to chalk that up to something else.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Could the speakers possibly be damaged?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Chuyler1,
Anything is possible, but in this instance it seems to be the way they are coupling with the vehicle.

Try something different [ change drivers ].


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## Preacher (May 8, 2006)

I missed the measurement action. Sorry those didn't work out for you, but at least you learned a lot on the way. You've given us something to study and scratch our heads on. 

Let us know how the next phase goes.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Will do, I am very pleased with the Adire speakers now. They aren't perfect but they excel at most volumes. Now that I can crank the volume on my system I am noticing other things though. For example, the tweeters blend well at moderate volumes but they are over powered by my mids at full volume. If I try to adjust for full volume they're too loud at low volume. Any thoughts? Could it be because the mids are 4ohm and the tweets are 8ohm? Could it be because I've got 85w for the mids and only 40w for the tweets? Its not bad enough for me to switch out amps but I'd just like to know for future reference.

This weekend I'm going to try to meet up with Oleg again and we'll take some more measurements. I want to do some tuning with the Adires (if he lets me keep them) and analyze left vs right frequency response as well as subwoofer response.


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

Damn sorry to hear this./....what happened to the CA18's?:blush:


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

They're still in the basement.

...and in other news my LPGs are spitting. I was listening to some cornet + piano on my way to work and every forte passage would excite the low end of the tweeters....this is at low volume so I'm not sure what that means. God dammit why can't I just have a system that sounds good!!!!


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## jj_diamond (Oct 3, 2007)

Hic said:


> Chuyler1,
> Anything is possible, but in this instance it seems to be the way they are coupling with the vehicle.
> 
> Try something different [ change drivers ].


very true. i had that problem with the Peerless exclusive 7's.


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## unpredictableacts (Aug 16, 2006)

Where are the tweets crossed at?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

unpredictableacts said:


> Where are the tweets crossed at?


and at what slope?


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

I don't blame you for changing out those mids. I couldn't ever get my L18RNX's to sound good in my mazda even in a three way. I think it's just the car.

As far as the LPG's, you might need to change those too. They need to be croosed over high, and with door mounted mids, that just isn't an option. Bad news all around.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I have them at 3KHz 12db/octave right now. I'll try raising it but I'm afraid I may have already damaged them. The noise I hear is very distinct, it isn't just distortion, it is something else that resonates clearly producing a buzz for a moment and then going away. I hear it mostly on attacks of notes.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

I couldnt get the ca21 or the l18 to sound good in my Mazda 6 either no matter what I tried. The er18 sounded pretty good but had some peaks I noticed in time I couldnt tame.

Using the LPG is also hindering your setup if you with to stay with a 2 way and not use the dls mids.

The speaker that worked best in my mazda 6 were the zapco ck, rs180, polk sr, Vifa MG and rainbow profi kickbass.

I only had the 880prs for tuning and every seas driver I put in, greatly disappointed me. 

I greatly helps to have a tweeter that can be crossed over at 2.5 k second order comfortably, or have a mid that can be crossed over that high and bring in the tweets around 3k 2nd order.

Zapco, max fi, polk mm3000 and PG titanium all worked well at either 2.5 or 3.15 k.

Not the most technial advice, just giving you my experience with the same car. Im sure the seas are great as lots of people get great results, I just found them to be a PITA to sound good in this car. 

Brought the same speaker in the house, tossed them in a .5 ported box with a cheap dayton silk tweeter and 2k crossover with lpad and they sounded great. The isues was the speaker and car just dont mate well in my experience.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Bah, always blaming the drivers 

I keep that in mind though for my next driver... doesn't have to necessarily be good, just idiot proof!


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

npdang said:


> Bah, always blaming the drivers
> 
> I keep that in mind though for my next driver... doesn't have to necessarily be good, just idiot proof!


Im not an idiot. I have a bunch of experience with Car audio installs and equipment but I'm new (past few years thanks to this site) to the raw drivers and active setup for the car. I dont use a rta any more and I really would rather focus on Home audio for "perfect" sound.

For me the car should be more like a fun listening area and Im not a fan of a flat response in a car. I dont compete any longer. So when it comes to drivers, I like to pick ones that sound great, but dont require indepth tuning processes and pcs to sound good. I found that most made for car audio drivers work easier in an install. Easier to get good sound I mean. Its cool that you guys have all this stuff and Im sure the car will sound great after the indepth tuning process and many of you find that aspect fun but I just keep it simple in the car these days. 

I have heard seas sound great so I'm not knocking them or the many diy drivers as I used them myself with success, I jut think his problems would be solved much easier but throwing some rainbow kickbasses or dyn speakers in there as well as a tweeter that can match up to the mid and have an overlapping usable frequency range.

But of course $ is more. And I dont have graphs or charts to validate my claims, its all subjective and based on my own experience working with the same car with the same speaker locations.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

npdang said:


> Bah, always blaming the drivers
> 
> I keep that in mind though for my next driver... doesn't have to necessarily be good, just idiot proof!


hey now!   

Three of us all with the same car and extensive deadening all experienced problems with using the RNX drivers in this particular car. All the tuning and fixing in the world just didn't matter. I have heard a pair of CA18RNx in a chevy truck door and it was great and couldn't understand why the l18's couldn't pull that off.  I blame it on the door being made of some type of plastic composite instead of sheet metal like >95% of the cars out there.

Popped the scan revs in and it was a world of a difference. I don't know what spec made it work but it just did. I'd love to say it was a combo of the slighlty higher qts (0.43) and the slightly lower fs (27Hz) , but other than that, it's hard to explain.

I even put the L18's back in and thought maybe I did something wrong, nope still sounded terrible in the mazda6 door. So in went the Rev's again.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

That's exactly what I'm getting at. In a car, a huge factor in the end result is going to be the install and tuning. Yet, through every thread on almost every board when something doesn't sound right the blame goes straight to the driver, and then people really never learn to maximize the potential of their setup or what the problems in their vehicle are. They want the easy, but not necessarily the highest potential route. Hence, I think an "idiot proof" driver is going to be much more successful than one that's necessarily well made. 

Imho, I think it's just a bit confusing to attribute certain causes to the driver when in actuality it's significantly more environment related. That distinction is often lost in the many threads you see on loudspeaker reviews here and on many other boards.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

If I was you I would not give up on the CA18's. You appear to have the skills, tools, and good enough tuning ability to make it work. Focus on the speaker install.

Try cutting away that OEM speaker mount. Make a thick 1/2 fiberglass baffle that bulbs out and attaches to the sheet and remaining panel more securely at more points. That way you can put the speaker closer to the door panel without the need for rings in front and behind the speaker which could be causing your particular problem at those higher frequencies.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Try some ATC's at those prices everyone will say they sound good !!


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

durwood said:


> I blame it on the door being made of some type of plastic composite instead of sheet metal like >95% of the cars out there.


This _has_ to be at least part of the problem. I have never gone so far with sound deadening and tuning in my life. I have always been able to toss some speakers in the doors, set the crossover point, and enjoy. My ears might pick out a lack of midbass or a few midrange frequencies that stick out...but nothing, i mean NOTHING has sounded as bad as these CA18s.

I am not one to quickly judge a driver but I have taken the past month or so and experimented with everyone's suggestions. This is not a slight issue that a different crossover point can resolve. I wish I knew someone local that had another pair of the drivers so I could put an end to this.

The Adire speakers sound good but after a few weeks I am noticing that they need a little tuning. They sound far better out of the box than the CA18s did with massive amounts of tuning but they don't match up with my long time reference...an old set of Vifa-made Eclipse components. A 6.5" driver with a 3/4" tweeter. I mounted those speakers in 3 different cars and they always sounded good no matter what I did. Unfortunately I sold the speakers when I bought my Iridium set (which blew them away...but only as a 3-way)

Anyway, I am certainly open to driver suggestions...but $$$ is an issue and unless there is a sale I probably won't have a chance to pick anything up until after the Holidays. My only requirement is that they be 6.5-7" drivers and the tweeters need to be close in diameter to the LPGs so I don't have to go and build new pods. In other words, I won't be able to fit a large format tweeter.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

npdang said:


> That's exactly what I'm getting at. In a car, a huge factor in the end result is going to be the install and tuning. Yet, through every thread on almost every board when something doesn't sound right the blame goes straight to the driver, and then people really never learn to maximize the potential of their setup or what the problems in their vehicle are. They want the easy, but not necessarily the highest potential route. Hence, I think an "idiot proof" driver is going to be much more successful than one that's necessarily well made.
> 
> Imho, I think it's just a bit confusing to attribute certain causes to the driver when in actuality it's significantly more environment related. That distinction is often lost in the many threads you see on loudspeaker reviews here and on many other boards.


I agree, but sometimes you have to cut your losses. I think your terminology of an "idiot proof" driver is not a very good term to use. If you want to call it a more "universal" driver or a "more forgiving" driver, then I like that better. You basically called us all idiots.  

*I'd like to see more drivers similar to the scan rev that's a compromise between car audio and home audio. I.E. Qts~low to mid 0.4's, low FS <30Hz, with good linear excursion.*

Mazda gave us a car to work with, and unless we abandon the door as a suitable midbass mounting location, we must work with what they gave us- The panel/baffle which is good for reducing outside noise, but not so great for a solid baffle. The resonant frequency of the plastic composite panel seems MUCH MUCH MUCH lower than then steel's tingy sound prior to deadening. Plus it flexes a good amount and you tend to lose midbass efficiency after you add all the deadening to it.



t3sn4f2 said:


> Try cutting away that OEM speaker mount. Make a thick 1/2 fiberglass baffle that bulbs out and attaches to the sheet and remaining panel more securely at more points. That way you can put the speaker closer to the door panel without the need for rings in front and behind the speaker which could be causing your particular problem at those higher frequencies.


I think if you look more closely at his pictures in his install thread, there really isn't much metal to attach to. Unless we could add some bracing accros the panel, which is near impossible, there is not much hope to really strengthen the panel.

Chuyler-

I know it's kind of expensive, but I think you might be very happy with scan revs, the sheilded one 18S/8531. Works great in this car and they will play low no problem which you need for your IB sub. Bdubs has some for sale and I strongly recommend you snatch them up and try them. Just beware they require a slighly larger hole then the RNX.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

durwood said:


> "I think if you look more closely at his pictures in his install thread, there really isn't much metal to attach to. Unless we could add some bracing accros the panel, which is near impossible, there is not much hope to really strengthen the panel."


The mod idea is to push the speaker closer to the opening to take away some or the horn loading that might be happening from it being in that far and to open up the area around the back of the driver. As it is right now it looks very structurally solid. 










Maybe the base can be cut away and replaced with a taller wider fiberglassed one. It would be more work then just adding another MDF baffle but it would give the speaker more room to breath from the back. 

Beside a more open rear on the baffle you will eliminate around a 1/2 inch from the front of the grill ring making the speaker more surface mounted.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I don't follow your thoughts t3sn4f2.

The opening in the plastic will fit the CA18 perfectly. It is designed for a typical 6.5" driver. I installed the baffle to bring the driver closer to the door panel and add some weight to the mounting panel. It is hard to tell from my other photos but there is virtually no gap between the speaker and the bottom part of the trim ring I installed on the door panel. There is about 1/4" gap along the top of the trim ring because the door panel isn't perpendicular to the mounting baffle. I really can't get it much closer without removing my trim ring and replacing it with a thinner one. I used 3/4" mdf for the trim ring because I needed a lip to hold the grill.

I think way too much time has been taken discussing these trim rings. The sound the speakers make is completely irrelevant to the rings or any part of the door panel. I know this because they sound just as bad with the door panels off. So end of story on that one...if there was any such horn loading caused by them the effects are negligible.

If anyone else wants to try their luck with these drivers I will sell them at a discount. Please PM me if you are interested.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

chuyler1 said:


> I don't follow your thoughts t3sn4f2.
> 
> The opening in the plastic will fit the CA18 perfectly. It is designed for a typical 6.5" driver. I installed the baffle to bring the driver closer to the door panel and add some weight to the mounting panel. It is hard to tell from my other photos but there is virtually no gap between the speaker and the bottom part of the trim ring I installed on the door panel. There is about 1/4" gap along the top of the trim ring because the door panel isn't perpendicular to the mounting baffle. I really can't get it much closer without removing my trim ring and replacing it with a thinner one. I used 3/4" mdf for the trim ring because I needed a lip to hold the grill.
> 
> ...


K, I must have missed that. Didn't know you had the same issues without the door panel on.


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## mghunt (Jun 26, 2007)

I haven't had the time lately to follow your thread. The outcome kind of makes me sad because I have the same midbass drivers in my Speed3. Your issues just sound so familiar it's scary.

I haven't had an opportunity to measure the FR of my car, but, I can't help but notice the peak you are seeing in the 800Hz range. We already determined that the distance between the door and center console is essentially the same as an 800Hz wavelength. I suspect we are hearing standing waves in the footwell. One thing to note, there are curves in the center console and the underside of the dash. The standing waves won't be at just one frequency. There will be a band of frequencies that will resonate. I'm thinking that adding foam or carpet to the underside of the dash and to the sides of the center console might help.

It could be the efficiency of the driver in this range that is making these frequencies stand out. I've never heard a driver like this either.

Out of curiosity, what are the Adires made from? The Bose and CA18 are both thin paper? Could it be that the resonances are more easily transferred through the cone?

I noticed a huge improvement, even in the stock Bose system, after I deadened the doors. However, the harshness in the midrange was present in the stock system too. I don't suspect that changing the driver is going to eliminate the problem. It may make it less noticable, but it won't eliminate it.

The CA is great on midbass, but I don't have an EQ right now, so I can't use it's potential. I plan to get a stereo 30band (dual mono) EQ for cutting/boosting after putting some treatments under the dash.

-Mark


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I ruled out the center console resonance theory by using a blanket to cover any hard surfaces. You may want to try the same so you can stop wondering about it.

The Adires are paper also I believe but they seem thicker than the CA18s and Bose speakers. They have a plastic phase plug that is attached to the center of the cone (basically a really large dust cap). 

Due to the weather and the holiday season I haven't had any time to RTA the Adire speakers in my car. I still owe Oleg some money for them too...if he doesn't ask for them back after listening.


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## mghunt (Jun 26, 2007)

Well, I did some calculations...

If the distance between the center console and the midbass driver is 22" (58cm) than standing waves can be created between the two at roughly 100Hz, 200Hz, 300Hz, 400Hz, etc...

Consider the fact that the distance between the rear of the driver and the exterior door skin is roughly 8.5". If this is the case, standing waves will be created in the door at roughly 260Hz, 520Hz, 780Hz, 1040Hz, 1300Hz... etc.

It seems to me that the large peaks and valleys in your RTA curve could easily be attributed to resonance and phase issues caused by standing wave harmonics.

It's quite possible that the console isn't causing the majority of the issue. It seems like the large peaks could be easily caused by standing waves inside the door. Example, 780Hz, 250Hz. There would probably be another large one at 560Hz or so, if the center console reflection wasn't out of phase with it. 

The light cone material of the CA18 is probably just picking those reflections up and shooting them right into the cabin. You probably don't notice it as much on the Adires because of the heavier cone material.

That being said, I think I'm going to put something resistive behind my CA18's. Like fiberglass duct board or something. Gotta block the midrange from getting into the door. I think this might solve the majority of the problem. This might explain why some people love these drivers for use in 250Hz and below in a 3-way setup.

-Mark


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Well I'd have to agree with anyone that uses them for 50-250Hz...they sound great in that range and are very easy to work with.


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## mtnickel (Mar 15, 2005)

As already mentioned...i wouldn't necessarily say it has much to do with the driver. If you check out the frequency response of the driver, it is one of the flattest and very easy to work with usually. This can be seen at Zaph Audio.

I chose the driver for it's easy of use and flat response.

In my install, i encountered the same problems. I built door pods that aren't too deep (onl'y about 6 inches). As a result, i see some of the peaks as well.
To say they are breakup nodes is false IMO.

There must be some rising response in the midrange in cars, because my CA18's got much too harsh above 1k. To remedy i tried a 1.0Q -6 @ 1.2k. It helped a lot but still didnt' solve it.

Ultimately, i ran a 6db/oct at 600hz, and boosted 2.0k to compensate where the crossover took too much gain out. That and tweeter (seas neo) @ 4k 12db/oct. It was strange to see as it didn't make sense at all...i tried much too long to get get a crossover of 2.0k 24db and 2.5k 24db on the tweet....just never worked at all. Shallow slopes around any peaks are your friends.

Also, swapping in RS180's resulted in nearly the exact same resposne below 2k. Same peakiness, etc.

Ideally i'd like to have a stronger EQ so i could still use 24db slopes but could level match the midrange bands. But you do what you can with your given equipement.


Mark


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## mghunt (Jun 26, 2007)

I'm thinking a resistive membrane behind the midbass would help. I'm thinking this would allow the midbass performance, like an aperiodic membrane, but would be a resistive barrier to the midrange frequencies wanting to resonate in the door. My other thought was to put a 45" surface surface in the door, to deflect upwards in the door. This might eliminate the offending standing waves.

I can tell by listening to the CA18 that there is major potential there. They are just harsh in certain ranges when I turn it up. It'll sound great and then a certain note/range plays and "ouch". Have to turn it down.

After I figure out the midbasses, I need to work on the tweeters too. In the MS3, they are on the sail panels. Just so happens that this is further back that the a-pillar. I'm getting reflections off of the a-pillar that are muddying up the sound too. My Passat didn't sound this "live".

-Mark


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

mtnickel said:


> I chose the driver for it's easy of use and flat response.


Me too...or so I thought.


> There must be some rising response in the midrange in cars, because my CA18's got much too harsh above 1k. To remedy i tried a 1.0Q -6 @ 1.2k. It helped a lot but still didnt' solve it.


Perhaps there is a rising response...but never have I had to do so much tweeking just to be able to turn the volume up a little. Maybe the car audio guys do know a little more about in-car response than we give them credit for.


> Ultimately, i ran a 6db/oct at 600hz, and boosted 2.0k to compensate where the crossover took too much gain out. That and tweeter (seas neo) @ 4k 12db/oct. It was strange to see as it didn't make sense at all...i tried much too long to get get a crossover of 2.0k 24db and 2.5k 24db on the tweet....just never worked at all.


EXACTLY what I encountered. the 6db slope as low as 400Hz smoothed out the response...but too much in some areas. It wasn't the sound I was used to but it sounded better than running the CA18s full range.


> Also, swapping in RS180's resulted in nearly the exact same resposne below 2k. Same peakiness, etc.


I dropped the RS180s in my Dad's truck with no deadening and they sounded pretty decent. Not perfect, but I wasn't in pain after listening at full volume. I wonder if the sound deadening I added to my car helped bass and destroyed midrange.


> Ideally i'd like to have a stronger EQ so i could still use 24db slopes but could level match the midrange bands. But you do what you can with your given equipement.


I've tried it all with the CA18s using my DCX-730 and nothing worked.


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## raamaudio (May 4, 2005)

Sorry I did not see this thread earlier, things here have been really crazy and not much time to hang out here as I wish I had.

Your situation sure seems odd to say the least. I have not read the whole thread, just no time to do so. At first I was thinking to much ensolite in the doors, but you just have a patch behind the speaker as recommended. Then I thought of a common issue, which may have some merrit though slightly different issue. 

I have ran into many installs that have a dramatic rise in output in the 315 hz range, sometimes it is wide spread, sometimes narrow, sometimes lower like 250 hz centered. That is one of the first things I look for when tuning, I drop that down dramatically then raise the gain to match the tweets, etc. 

Your situation does not seem to have this particular issue but there could be something to it due to an interaction with some aspect of your particular door shape, resonate issues that may need addressed, etc.

Other than that I am at a bit of a loss to come up with anything else causing this as I have several sets of those drivers and am amazed at how good they are for the price. 

I would try different drivers of the same general specs, same model even, to eliminate the driver as the issue. Probably already covered, etc, but if not then it is the logical thing to do.

If this post is of no real value, rehashing everything done, etc, I appologize,wish I could go read it all!

Sincerely,
Rick


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Hey guys, I just wanted to update this thread since I'm sure it pops up when people are searching for CA18RNX. Since my troubles with these drivers I have tried three other drivers with much better success. Perhaps my CA18s were faulty but after hearing several other 6.5" drivers I can safely say the CA18s were just not for me. Below are two reviews I have written since swapping out the CA18s.

Focal 165K vs Adire SF7
Hertz HKS 165 vs Focal 165K

In short, the Adires are smooth but lack upper end detail. The Focals have similar issues with the upper end but can be tweaked with a shelf filter around 1-2KHz. The Hertz don't need any major tuning and seem to play much higher than the rest without breaking up.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

chuyler1 said:


> Hey guys, I just wanted to update this thread since I'm sure it pops up when people are searching for CA18RNX. Since my troubles with these drivers I have tried three other drivers with much better success. Perhaps my CA18s were faulty but after hearing several other 6.5" drivers I can safely say the CA18s were just not for me. Below are two reviews I have written since swapping out the CA18s.
> 
> Focal 165K vs Adire SF7
> Hertz HKS 165 vs Focal 165K
> ...



That's great! It goes to show that in this realm driver selection is VERY application/listener specific and that the first purchase may not be for you....

Ahhh, the trials and tribulations.


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