# image dynamics XS 65's?



## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

anybody know the specs on these drivers? here's the problem... i wanna run dual 8"s in the doors paired up with horns. id doesn't have an 8" and i'm gonna be using a lot of id products with this install. matt @ id wants me to use the xs69's but i really don't want to build my door for those drivers alone. what if i don't like them? i'd b stuck with a 6 X 9 mold for my doors. i figured i could give the XS65's a shot until the XS8 comes out. wouldn't be too much of a mod to throw 8"s in there after the doors were built for 6.5's...


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

ALL OR NOTHING said:


> anybody know the specs on these drivers? here's the problem... i wanna run dual 8"s in the doors paired up with horns. id doesn't have an 8" and i'm gonna be using a lot of id products with this install. matt @ id wants me to use the xs69's but i really don't want to build my door for those drivers alone. what if i don't like them? i'd b stuck with a 6 X 9 mold for my doors. i figured i could give the XS65's a shot until the XS8 comes out. wouldn't be too much of a mod to throw 8"s in there after the doors were built for 6.5's...


Qts and Fs are close since I am at home with out LEAP. Others are all accurate.
RMS is 125 with no problem with music to about 300
No 92 dB 1w/1m
SPL 95dB 2.83 volts
Fs ~80Hz
Qts .26
Re 3.4 ohms
Imp 4 ohms
Xmax 4mm 1 way 8mm p-p
Xsus 10mm 1 way 20 mm p-p

I think a pair of these will surprise you especially if you throw some real juice like 500 watts per channel to them and put a solid 50 x 2 to the CD2's

Eric
Image Dynamics


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## kimokalihi (May 27, 2007)

When is XS8 coming out? I didn't know they were making an 8" midbass. I'm using CX62 right now in my doors and they have pretty decent output but I really want an 8" in my doors.


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

Eric Stevens said:


> Qts and Fs are close since I am at home with out LEAP. Others are all accurate.
> RMS is 125 with no problem with music to about 300
> No 92 dB 1w/1m
> SPL 95dB 2.83 volts
> ...


thanx eric for the speedy responce. 'ole jeff smith is pretty stoked about doing this install. i had my heart set on the hertz hv 200 8" midbass drivers because y'all aren't certain about when the XS8 will be coming out. i might even run your amps. a totall isd install. that would be sweet.

my only concerns with the xs65 is midbass. i listen to a lot of metal so i need a driver that can handle some abuse and dish out a decent amount of midbass. never used a 6.5 that could reach that goal


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## mobeious (Jan 26, 2007)

wow i was recomended 150watts max from image on the phone... why 500watts when its 92db efficiant?


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

mobeious said:


> wow i was recomended 150watts max from image on the phone... why 500watts when its 92db efficiant?


power compensation... only experienced installers need apply...


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## Mike Hall (Jun 30, 2006)

I have the XS57's running along with CD1 fullbody horns with B&C drivers. If I could just keep my darn doors from rattling so much I know these mids would kick butt. I already have 2 layers of Raamatt inside and out on my doors plus a layer of ensolite. I guess I need to ensolite my door panels or something to stop all the vibrations.

Mike


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## Mike Hall (Jun 30, 2006)

Oh yeah, Im running 300RMS per side from a bridged D6 600.4 and there powerful. 

Mike


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

These don't seem to be very much for midbass. With that power handling spec, the high pass would have to be into the low hundred for sure, at least.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

Ive been running dual XS65 in my BMW for awhile now and couldnt be happier.
Midbass is very good. quick response with accurate attack and decay. No noticeable overhang.
Mine are running from [email protected]/octave
powered by a Genesis DMX


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

these drivers are very efficient but i'm kinda concerned with the midbass. i abuse the hell out of my speakers. i'm tired of of speakers bottoming out. 8"s are what i really need.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

I believe it has been suggested previously in a different thread but did you rule out the B&C 8NDL51?


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

My current door config:









Soon to be replaced by these:

























In my experience if the ID mids are asked to play from about 70Hz up to 3KHz you can't find much better. Damn they have a nice midrange. 

However, if you want to move more bass duty up front, and have a dedicated midrange, then for the money you can definitely do better. Especially if you're not going to make use of the XSxx's strong point, its midrange. The scans I showed you would run about the same price as a set of XS mids. Many consider them the supperior solution.

Not trying to persuade you one way or another. Just trying to open you up to different options.

Ge0


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

Ge0 said:


> My current door config:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


damn, the midbass is that weak? i wonder if those scanspeaks can take some abuse. what's the mounting depth on those scanspeaks?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I switched from using the Genesis Absolute7 (scanspeak revalator) to using the ID are IMO midbass is comparable. the Genesis was a little more transparent sounding, but didnt have the robust midbass response like the ID have.
comes down to a tonal preference


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

ALL OR NOTHING said:


> damn, the midbass is that weak? i wonder if those scanspeaks can take some abuse. what's the mounting depth on those scanspeaks?


I wouldn't say the XS65's have weak midbass. That is all in terms of how low you want to cross them. Don't expect a single driver to reproduce 50Hz with authority. Most users cross them higher like I do. MIC10 crosses his at 56Hz, BUT, runs two per side to compensate for the loss in output that low.

My calculations show the Scans should yield 5db more output at 60Hz than the XS65's. I've heard through others that they will play down to 40Hz and not break a sweat. Although, most don't run them so low. Mostly because doors rattle too much playing that low of frequency.

To answer another of your questions, the mounting depth is 2-7/8".

Ge0


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

well, i will be doing dual drivers per door. i understand that an excellent sq driver is useless for spl. i love sq but i like to crank too. i listen to my tunes pretty loud. i'll probably regret this when i'm deaf at 50, but atleast i lived a little. the revelators are some fine drivers. the midraange from those speakers will make you wanna cry


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

for competition, I run my midbass down to 40hz @24db/octave. But I too like to listen on the loud side so the higher Xo point insures I dont have to call Dan and get an RA number every week. 

I love the Scans speakers, midrange especially is very revealing. I havent used my XS for midrange much b/c I have dual Genesis Studio 3s to play 300 and up.
and yeh dual 3 and dual 6s in kick panel....

and the dual midbass decision was more of a decision to have more cone area over a single driver, be able to do a dual mdibass set up, and cram a bunch of speakers into a vehicle just to say I did it.  
Same reason I did 4 10s in my rear deck instead of keeping 2 IDW15s---4 sounds so much cooler than 2


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> for competition, I run my midbass down to 40hz @24db/octave. But I too like to listen on the loud side so the higher Xo point insures I dont have to call Dan and get an RA number every week.
> 
> I love the Scans speakers, midrange especially is very revealing. I havent used my XS for midrange much b/c I have dual Genesis Studio 3s to play 300 and up.
> and yeh dual 3 and dual 6s in kick panel....
> ...



would you run dual XS65's per door paired up with id cd2 neo horns?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

ALL OR NOTHING said:


> would you run dual XS65's per door paired up with id cd2 neo horns?


I am assuming the dual 6s would be playing midrange and midbass? Me, personally have always done 3way when I did horns. well, aside from my very 1st Horn set up which was IDQ8 and horns-after that I have always done a 3way set up b/c typically you need to invert phase of one side of mids to get it to stage properly from both seats. 3way allowed midbass to stay in phase together and a midrange to be inverted to bring the phase of the system together so it stages from both seats.

If you arent concerned about staging and imaging from both seats, then I think it would work awesome and be hella loud.

I definitely like the XS better than the ID CX, which I really never liked. plus ID has great support if you need help, it sounds as if you have already made a connection with Eric or Matt and can have their assistance via phone if needed to get things worked out for you, which has always been a major plus about ID to me.


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

Mic10is said:


> I am assuming the dual 6s would be playing midrange and midbass? Me, personally have always done 3way when I did horns. well, aside from my very 1st Horn set up which was IDQ8 and horns-after that I have always done a 3way set up b/c typically you need to invert phase of one side of mids to get it to stage properly from both seats. 3way allowed midbass to stay in phase together and a midrange to be inverted to bring the phase of the system together so it stages from both seats.
> 
> If you arent concerned about staging and imaging from both seats, then I think it would work awesome and be hella loud.
> 
> I definitely like the XS better than the ID CX, which I really never liked. plus ID has great support if you need help, it sounds as if you have already made a connection with Eric or Matt and can have their assistance via phone if needed to get things worked out for you, which has always been a major plus about ID to me.



i want my to car sound like a pa... as if you stuck your head in a speaker. to be fully surrounded with music. is that possible?


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

ALL OR NOTHING said:


> thanx eric for the speedy responce. 'ole jeff smith is pretty stoked about doing this install. i had my heart set on the hertz hv 200 8" midbass drivers because y'all aren't certain about when the XS8 will be coming out. i might even run your amps. a totall isd install. that would be sweet.
> 
> my only concerns with the xs65 is midbass. i listen to a lot of metal so i need a driver that can handle some abuse and dish out a decent amount of midbass. never used a 6.5 that could reach that goal


They will do the job for midbass no doubt or question about it. If you want them to play to 60 Hz which is into the sub range then wait for the 8" or go with another. but crossed at 80Hz they will out do most 8" because its not so much about displacement at that frequency and more about efficiency which the X65 has.

Remember that crossed at 80Hz they are 6dB down at the crossover frequency which means 62.5 watts @ 80Hz if you are sending 250 watts to them. And to reach 4mm xmax would take 100 watts or so which means they are well within their linear limits.

Eric


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

ALL OR NOTHING said:


> i want my to car sound like a pa... as if you stuck your head in a speaker. to be fully surrounded with music. is that possible?


you want your car to sound like Pennsylvania? 

Yeh thats possible. Horns will certainly help, now you just need the power to get it to the levels you want


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

mobeious said:


> wow i was recomended 150watts max from image on the phone... why 500watts when its 92db efficiant?


Depends on the end goal.

He is a metal head and wants LOUD. And its 250 watts per speaker and 500 watts total per pair.

With a real 50 watts to the CD2 thats what it takes to keep up even with 92dB.

Eric


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> These don't seem to be very much for midbass. With that power handling spec, the high pass would have to be into the low hundred for sure, at least.


125RMS is long term with pink noise safe to double that with music. See other post about the mechanical power handling.

Eric


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

Eric Stevens said:


> They will do the job for midbass no doubt or question about it. If you want them to play to 60 Hz which is into the sub range then wait for the 8" or go with another. but crossed at 80Hz they will out do most 8" because its not so much about displacement at that frequency and more about efficiency which the X65 has.
> 
> Remember that crossed at 80Hz they are 6dB down at the crossover frequency which means 62.5 watts @ 80Hz if you are sending 250 watts to them. And to reach 4mm xmax would take 100 watts or so which means they are well within their linear limits.
> 
> Eric



eric you rule!!!! wish i was a audio guru like yourself. i plan on having a pretty strong sub stage aswell. i would like to do dual idmax 15"s or 4 idq12's. with this front stage i'm not trying to go sub-less. i want the low end drop-tune guitar riffs to carry through... no cut offs. you know... chug chuga chu chu chu chuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuaaaahhhhhhhhh


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Ge0 said:


> I wouldn't say the XS65's have weak midbass. That is all in terms of how low you want to cross them. Don't expect a single driver to reproduce 50Hz with authority. Most users cross them higher like I do. MIC10 crosses his at 56Hz, BUT, runs two per side to compensate for the loss in output that low.
> 
> My calculations show the Scans should yield 5db more output at 60Hz than the XS65's. I've heard through others that they will play down to 40Hz and not break a sweat. Although, most don't run them so low. Mostly because doors rattle too much playing that low of frequency.
> 
> ...



In all due respect 50Hz is SUB-BASS!!!

There are more issues than playing strong at 50 hz he wants it blistering loud everywhere so the added output at 50 hz when he already has a driver that can do that better and louder than his midbass driver is a poor trade off for better system performance and SQ. He needs efficiency in the mid bass and lower midrange areas to give him equal volume across the full spectrum. A drum wont sound right if you have strong output at 50 to 150 but are weak at 500 Hz you need it balanced and strong everywhere for proper tonality impact.

50Hz is best left to a subwoofer if you want it loud and clean. No 6.5 will do 50Hz with authority. If crossed at 80Hz for a daily driven high output system you cant get the sub anchored up front you need to work on the basic tuning of your system.

For an competition system I wont go any lower than 70Hz and occasionally I will end up at 63Hz but very rare. But when pushed hard even with an IDQ8 at those frequencies I can hear the strain at the outer limits of volume in a high powered system.

Our CL600 demo car at CES had Zero Zilch Nada hint of subs from the rear crossed at 70 hz and had gobs of mid-bass attack. And alot of that attack comes from the physical impact from the subs in the rear.

Eric


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## jrouter76 (Dec 21, 2005)

Eric Stevens said:


> In all due respect 50Hz is SUB-BASS!!!
> 
> There are more issues than playing strong at 50 hz he wants it blistering loud everywhere so the added output at 50 hz when he already has a driver that can do that better and louder than his midbass driver is a poor trade off for better system performance and SQ. He needs efficiency in the mid bass and lower midrange areas to give him equal volume across the full spectrum. A drum wont sound right if you have strong output at 50 to 150 but are weak at 500 Hz you need it balanced and strong everywhere for proper tonality impact.
> 
> ...


so are you saying that the midbass should be crossed [email protected] 80hz and the subs @ 50hz so that the sub doesn`t seem to be coming from the rear?


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

matt @ id said something about that. having a full sound.... like the sub is in front of you


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

ALL OR NOTHING said:


> i want my to car sound like a pa... as if you stuck your head in a speaker. to be fully surrounded with music. is that possible?


HLCD (which you already have)
Pro-audio mids at least 8" in diameter. If you can fit a pair in each door, even better.
Large single sub or multiple subs. 
Plenty of power.

Cross the midrange/midbass around 80hz (depending upon the driver used) and run the sub up that high also. Let the sub help reproduce the midbass. It makes a world of difference for the goal you are trying to achieve.


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

well, i'm gonna run with these XS65's until the XS8's come out... i got a pretty good tuner that's gonna work with me. can't wait to post pics!


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

Eric Stevens said:


> In all due respect 50Hz is SUB-BASS!!!
> 
> There are more issues than playing strong at 50 hz he wants it blistering loud everywhere so the added output at 50 hz when he already has a driver that can do that better and louder than his midbass driver is a poor trade off for better system performance and SQ. He needs efficiency in the mid bass and lower midrange areas to give him equal volume across the full spectrum. A drum wont sound right if you have strong output at 50 to 150 but are weak at 500 Hz you need it balanced and strong everywhere for proper tonality impact.
> 
> ...


Very well said Eric. Yes, the original posters requirements are vastly different than mine. I WAS running my XS65's down to 60hz. Stress on them was noticable at system volume levels around 100dB. But, on your recommendation in another thread I bumped them up to 70Hz. They do this very well. 

I am in no big hurry to do driver swapping. I need to perform additional work on my doors to stiffen / deaden them so I can give the XS65's a fair evaluation. Can't judge them if mounted in an inferior environment. 

Eliminating rattles at sub frequencies before I evaluate will also help. Right now buzzs and rattles contribute to ruining the illusion and pulling bass backwards.

Perhaps I won't need more bass up front when all is said and done.

Ge0


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

Ge0 said:


> Very well said Eric. Yes, the original posters requirements are vastly different than mine. I WAS running my XS65's down to 60hz. Stress on them was noticable at system volume levels around 100dB. But, on your recommendation in another thread I bumped them up to 70Hz. They do this very well.
> 
> I am in no big hurry to do driver swapping. I need to perform additional work on my doors to stiffen / deaden them so I can give the XS65's a fair evaluation. Can't judge them if mounted in an inferior environment.
> 
> ...


cool... can't wait to hear the review


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

i still believe the l8 would give you the midbass beat-down you're after. if you're so concerned about blending them w/ the horns, add a dedicated midrange. heck, use the xs65 for the midrange if you're stuck on id gear. from the reviews here it sounds like they would be a great midrange driver.


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

benny z said:


> i still believe the l8 would give you the midbass beat-down you're after. if you're so concerned about blending them w/ the horns, add a dedicated midrange. heck, use the xs65 for the midrange if you're stuck on id gear. from the reviews here it sounds like they would be a great midrange driver.




i'm sure a company owner wouldn't go out of his way to promote his product in this particular system design if it wouldn't work... everybody @ id is metal heads. they know what kind of sound i'm trying to achieve. running hybrid audio with image dynamics is a serious slap in the face to both of them. considering they've had words and have zero respect for one another. to each his own....


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

ALL OR NOTHING said:


> running hybrid audio with image dynamics is a serious slap in the face to both of them. considering they've had words and have zero respect for one another. to each his own....


i guess i'm not familar w/ that history. what did i miss?

i'm running hat w/ id... and so does sq world champ dave brooks.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

yeah, I've never heard of a problem with either one of these guys toward one another.


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

well, they have and scott started it...


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

an email from mr. buwalda to me....


Scott Buwalda to me 
show details 10/16/07 Reply


First rule of business is to never talk bad about another company. Image Dynamics = WOOPS! Want to hear something funny? My new Clarus line, to be released in about two months (a lower-end line compared to the Legatia) is made by the same build house that makes the Image Dynamics Chameleon. In fact, when it came time for me to design the grilles, they sent me a model they had built for another company, and the green Image Dynamics “wing” logo was on the grille. Isn’t life ‘funny’ when you know the truth? They’re top of the line speaker is being built by the same build-house as my bottom of the line speaker. 

I would put as big a power amplifier or two on the L8’s as you can afford. If you like DLS, then at least an A3 on the pair, if not an A3 on each L8.

Thanks for everything. I am a bit more old school headbanger though…Queensryche is my band. I like hair metal too---I LOVE RATT. On the newer side, I like Type-O Negative and Fear factory the best.

Scott


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

i have numberous email responces from scott, if y'all care to read


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

jrouter76 said:


> so are you saying that the midbass should be crossed [email protected] 80hz and the subs @ 50hz so that the sub doesn`t seem to be coming from the rear?


No always symmetrical xover points. I am saying that you should crossover at 80 Hz lp/hp.

Eric


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

Eric Stevens said:


> No always symmetrical xover points. I am saying that you should crossover at 80 Hz lp/hp.
> 
> Eric


Why "*always* symmetrical xover points.", Eric? 

Thank you.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

So a private message claiming where speakers are possibly made equates to both people haveing zero respect for one another.?? I don't get it. I do believe that both Scott and Eric care about their products including craftmanship.

I agree with Eric, the benz at CES had no issues with the midbass/subwoofer transition. They actually let me play my own cd, and everything blended nicely.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

kevin k. said:


> Why "always symmetrical xover points.", Eric?
> 
> Thanks!


If gapping or overlapping of crossover points makes things sound better then it is a band-aid covering up the real problem or problems.

Better off curing the problem than putting a band aid on it.

Eric


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## jrouter76 (Dec 21, 2005)

Eric Stevens said:


> No always symmetrical xover points. I am saying that you should crossover at 80 Hz lp/hp.
> 
> Eric


so 80 hz for sub and 80hz for midbass.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

benny z said:


> i still believe the l8 would give you the midbass beat-down you're after. if you're so concerned about blending them w/ the horns, add a dedicated midrange. heck, use the xs65 for the midrange if you're stuck on id gear. from the reviews here it sounds like they would be a great midrange driver.



I am sure the L8 is a great driver when used as intended as a sub/midbass driver but its reference efficiency of 84dB at 1 watt is very low.
(2.83 volts is 2 watts at 4 ohms so lower the rating by -3dB) 

6 db less requires 4 times the power to reach an equivalent SPL. so 90dB 1w/1m driver with 150 watts RMS will theoretically do 111.2 dB to do the same with the L8 would require a staggering 512 watts to reach the same SPL. I will guarantee that the L8 would suffer significant power compression of probably. Bottom line is it will never keep up with the X65 at 92dB.

Now the L8's maximum output is probably 6dB better at 50 Hz than a 90dB efficient driver which is what makes it good as a subwoofer in lower output systems. 

There is no free lunch the more low end, the lower the efficiency for a given driver size.

I could go on about this but there is a balance between efficiency and bandwidth and finding that balance can mean the difference between good and great or great and wholly ****. Music is a season to taste thing and everyone will find a different balance to their preference.

Every system should be able to play somewhat loud. I have never met an audiophile yet that doesnt like to have fun listening to their music and live performance output levels are part of the fun and make the music sound well "Live" which is what a recording is originally made from "Live music".

Eric
Image Dynamics


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Eric Stevens said:


> 125RMS is long term with pink noise safe to double that with music. See other post about the mechanical power handling.
> 
> Eric


My bad, I missed the part where he was using 2 per channel, which led to my surprise of the 500 watt recommendation. :blush:


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

jrouter76 said:


> so 80 hz for sub and 80hz for midbass.


Yes both at 70, or both at 80 or both at 90 hz.

I personally like 80 to 90 for most systems.

Eric


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## jrouter76 (Dec 21, 2005)

Eric Stevens said:


> Yes both at 70, or both at 80 or both at 90 hz.
> 
> I personally like 80 to 90 for most systems.
> 
> Eric


ok gotcha thanks alot.


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

Eric Stevens said:


> If gapping or overlapping of crossover points makes things sound better then it is a band-aid covering up the real problem or problems.
> 
> Better off curing the problem than putting a band aid on it.
> 
> Eric


Thanks for your answer. Would you be more specific about what problem(s) you're referring to...?

And, do you adhere to the same symmetrical principle when it comes to *all* of the system's x-over points?

Thank you.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

kevin k. said:


> Thanks for your answer. Would you be more specific about what problem(s) you're referring to...?


Peaks or dips in the frequency response 

Not blending together correctly

Subs pull to the rear 



Eric


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## crea78 (Aug 13, 2007)

Eric, can you tell us what the mounting depth and outer diameter is on the XS 65 mids b/c it's not listed on the website.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

crea78 said:


> Eric, can you tell us what the mounting depth and outer diameter is on the XS 65 mids b/c it's not listed on the website.


If the XS 65 coax uses the same driver then it listed under that one.


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## crea78 (Aug 13, 2007)

Yep its the same driver. Thx t3 b/c I never thought about looking there


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> If the XS 65 coax uses the same driver then it listed under that one.


Should be on both, will fix that.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Eric Stevens said:


> If gapping or overlapping of crossover points makes things sound better then it is a band-aid covering up the real problem or problems.


Eric, that is absolute ******** and you know it man  The new crossover technology alows this and would not be implemented if it weren't FOR it! correcting for response abnormalities via crossover notching is perfectly fine, it is done all the time. Even letting a woofer play out then bringing a tweet in, what's that "notch?" What about a crossover thats allowed that then tweet roll-off that was tapered, steeper low, shallow high? Is that a correction for a real problem or admiring the use of a cone as high as possible?

It's simply done ALL the time, even in places where you would least expect it 






Eric Stevens said:


> Better off curing the problem than putting a band aid on it.


Take it out of the car then


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## crea78 (Aug 13, 2007)

I'm just wondering if the X65 mids can fit into my doors of a 1998 Honda Civic. Eric, since you said the horns would fit with no problem, any luck with the ID mids?? I have a custom baffle made for my Rainbows (just barely fits), but not sure about the X65s.


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

Eric Stevens said:


> I am sure the L8 is a great driver when used as intended as a sub/midbass driver but its reference efficiency of 84dB at 1 watt is very low.
> (2.83 volts is 2 watts at 4 ohms so lower the rating by -3dB)
> 
> 6 db less requires 4 times the power to reach an equivalent SPL. so 90dB 1w/1m driver with 150 watts RMS will theoretically do 111.2 dB to do the same with the L8 would require a staggering 512 watts to reach the same SPL. I will guarantee that the L8 would suffer significant power compression of probably. Bottom line is it will never keep up with the X65 at 92dB.
> ...



when i first put this system to a plan i emailed scott concerning the L8's. he told me the L8 was a perfect midbass to be paired up with some compresion drivers. i asked what kind of power should i run to the L8's... guess what scott said?

a DLS A3 going to each L8... that's 4 DLS A3's!!!!!! you wanna talk about electrical system upgrade. i haven't even mentioned the DLS A1 and 2 DLS A6's. i love DLS, but their extremly power hungry. that's one reason right i took the L8 off the list. not only the L8 not very efficient but you would need a midrange to go with it.


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

i don't know where i'm going with this, but i'm pissed. mr. buwalda, you really piss me tha **** off!!! what he fails to realize is i have the right to voice my opinion here or anywhere else i want to. that's why i fought for this country... to protect that right! 

first of all, i was dead wrong for raising all kind of hell about hybrid audio. i also had no right posting on here that i owned hybrid audio products. however, i didn't deserve the redicule that followed by mr. buwalda himself. this man flat out posted my code name and private email address & messages here. you wanna get personal scott? i have several emails from you bashing the hell out of matt and eric @ image dynamics. i only considered the L8 because the XS8 isn't out yet. after doing some serious research and listening for myself i chose to stick with a company that's been loyal to me from day one. if image dynamics was in the same position as mr. buwalda they wouldn't have stooped as low as he did. i can guarantee that!!!


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

I don't know if anybody has said this yet, but if you're running dual 8s you might as well put a 12 in each door 

...or one of those new JL 13" thin subs


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

HondAudio said:


> I don't know if anybody has said this yet, but if you're running dual 8s you might as well put a 12 in each door
> 
> ...or one of those new JL 13" thin subs



i'll do 2 12"s per door in a van.... down by the river


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

woops...


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## HondAudio (Oct 19, 2006)

ALL OR NOTHING said:


> i'll do 2 12"s per door in a van.... down by the river


...how did you know I was Matt Foley the last two Halloweens?


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

chad said:


> Eric, that is absolute ******** and you know it man  The new crossover technology alows this and would not be implemented if it weren't FOR it! correcting for response abnormalities via crossover notching is perfectly fine, it is done all the time. Even letting a woofer play out then bringing a tweet in, what's that "notch?" What about a crossover thats allowed that then tweet roll-off that was tapered, steeper low, shallow high? Is that a correction for a real problem or admiring the use of a cone as high as possible?
> 
> It's simply done ALL the time, even in places where you would least expect it
> 
> Take it out of the car then


Call it how you see/feel it, but it ain't ******** and don't stink.  

Agreed there are many ways to get the job done. I was specifically addressing mid-bass to sub crossovers in this thread but feel strongly that this approach applies in many aspects, to all parts of the system. 

I have done some things that were not symmetrical to get the best overall sound. But I know that if I were willing to correct the installation, or the speakers, so that this were not necessary then the results would have been better. 

The best way to correct abnormalities is to fix them not cover them up. I know this is grossly over simplified but it is still fundamentally true.

Bringing in a tweeter on the top end of a mid is still a crossover. Crossover response can be part of the speakers response as well not just a component in line between the amplifier and the speaker. In fact those that don't carefully design the crossover with the response of the speaker as an element of their design are not going to get the best results possible. 

A lot of crossover topologies are correcting or compensating for problems or abnormalities caused by the installation. Correct the installation and simplify the crossover network and guess what, it will sound better, play louder (less insertion loss). 

Ah **** thats right this is a car damn it, cant get equal path lengths and all those damn reflections and standing waves!

Eric


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

crea78 said:


> I'm just wondering if the X65 mids can fit into my doors of a 1998 Honda Civic. Eric, since you said the horns would fit with no problem, any luck with the ID mids?? I have a custom baffle made for my Rainbows (just barely fits), but not sure about the X65s.


Yep, they will fit. 

You can get a 3" deep 6.5" drive in there by replacing the plastic factory baffle with wood spacer rings. We have had many dealer do it with CX6 which is the same depth.

Eric


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

Eric Stevens said:


> Yep, they will fit.
> 
> You can get a 3" deep 6.5" drive in there by replacing the plastic factory baffle with wood spacer rings. We have had many dealer do it with CX6 which is the same depth.
> 
> Eric



i'll be calling you tomorrow... answer the phone!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Eric Stevens said:


> Call it how you see/feel it, but it ain't ******** and don't stink.


Haha 



Eric Stevens said:


> Agreed there are many ways to get the job done. I was specifically addressing mid-bass to sub crossovers in this thread but feel strongly that this approach applies in many aspects, to all parts of the system.
> 
> I have done some things that were not symmetrical to get the best overall sound. But I know that if I were willing to correct the installation, or the speakers, so that this were not necessary then the results would have been better.
> 
> ...


Correct but designing a crossover around a drivers natural Roll-Off is difficult if not nearly impossible to achieve symmetry.



Eric Stevens said:


> A lot of crossover topologies are correcting or compensating for problems or abnormalities caused by the installation. Correct the installation and simplify the crossover network and guess what, it will sound better, play louder (less insertion loss).


Although I do not disagree with this at all (because I'm a stickler for efficiency) but ESPECIALLY in the sub to bass region, no amount of install wizardry is going to correct for the fact that we are dealing with a region of the spectrum that's quickly going from nodal to pressure and it's not a smooth rise. Some EQ, others play with crossover symmetry or lack of, it's done in pro audio, in the studio, it's just another way for using "EQ" per say but using the environment the driver is in or system is in as opposed to electrically manipulating it. I can deal with some insertion loss if the loss is made up for in room gain (what's a few dee-beez between friends  ) 



Eric Stevens said:


> Ah **** thats right this is a car damn it, cant get equal path lengths and all those damn reflections and standing waves!
> 
> Eric


That's the word I've heard


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

hmmmm...


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

o.k. enough is enough! here's the bash emails from scott buwalda....


First rule of business is to never talk bad about another company. Image Dynamics = WOOPS! Want to hear something funny? My new Clarus line, to be released in about two months (a lower-end line compared to the Legatia) is made by the same build house that makes the Image Dynamics Chameleon. In fact, when it came time for me to design the grilles, they sent me a model they had built for another company, and the green Image Dynamics “wing” logo was on the grille. Isn’t life ‘funny’ when you know the truth? They’re top of the line speaker is being built by the same build-house as my bottom of the line speaker. 

I would put as big a power amplifier or two on the L8’s as you can afford. If you like DLS, then at least an A3 on the pair, if not an A3 on each L8.

Thanks for everything. I am a bit more old school headbanger though…Queensryche is my band. I like hair metal too---I LOVE RATT. On the newer side, I like Type-O Negative and Fear factory the best.

Scott


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## kevin k. (May 5, 2005)

ALL OR NOTHING said:


> o.k. enough is enough! here's the bash emails from scott buwalda....
> 
> 
> First rule of business is to never talk bad about another company. Image Dynamics = WOOPS! Want to hear something funny? My new Clarus line, to be released in about two months (a lower-end line compared to the Legatia) is made by the same build house that makes the Image Dynamics Chameleon. In fact, when it came time for me to design the grilles, they sent me a model they had built for another company, and the green Image Dynamics “wing” logo was on the grille. Isn’t life ‘funny’ when you know the truth? They’re top of the line speaker is being built by the same build-house as my bottom of the line speaker.
> ...


Dave, you've already posted this on page 4 of this thread. What's your point? Help an ex-Atlanta fella out here...


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

kevin k. said:


> Dave, you've already posted this on page 4 of this thread. What's your point? Help an ex-Atlanta fella out here...


well, i keep getting emails from scott and it's pissing me off! i don't give a **** about him or his over-hyped company. i know eric and matt read this several times and their just gonna keep there opinions to themselves... a professional move.

i think i'm gonna file a suite against mr. buwalda for exploiting my private info here and 2 other forums.


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

i thought it was pretty clear from the lack of responses after the first time you posted that private email in this same thread that NOBODY CARES.

i'm curious, though, what was that email in reply to? obviously he was replying to something you had sent him about ID speaking negatively about HAT.

nevermind. i don't care. it was private, and from what i'm reading in your posting, he's not bashing ID at all. he's simply stating that his cheapest speaker line is assembled in the same factory as id's top line. ...which isn't saying a whole lot considering the referenced hat line is still $100 more (retail) than the id line referenced.

and if by "overhyped", you mean praise over wiping the sq slate at the iasca world finals last year, then... ???


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## ALL OR NOTHING (Mar 9, 2008)

benny z said:


> i thought it was pretty clear from the lack of responses after the first time you posted that private email in this same thread that NOBODY CARES.
> 
> i'm curious, though, what was that email in reply to? obviously he was replying to something you had sent him about ID speaking negatively about HAT.
> 
> ...



if you can't see that scott is bashing id then you are either very ignorant or just plain stupid. i could care less for sq comps. every iasca car i've listened to sounded like **** for what i listen to. they have re-tune the whole system to get it to sound right for metal. really, i could care less. what all of this is coming from is buwalda bashing a consumer(me) and posting my private email address and user names in other forums. i wish i had recorded our conversations 2 months ago. buwalda is very opinionated and enjoys bashing other audio manufactures... very unprofessional!


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## file audio (Mar 12, 2013)

Well for what I read Eric is ID founder and scott hat? Yesterday after one year of waiting for an idmax I got one now and ended up purchasing a xs65 component. Without needing it I have the krx3 maybe I can try xs65 and compare I like the focal midbass but even focal is very expensive we never know wich sounds the best. have to try Im always been impressed by the reputation of image dynamics. .until now Im going to really check those out..I guess Eric are not longer answering here. It would be great to read him again. . AND I hope I have more space for the xs65 in my system focal krx3 is hard to beat..maybe inbthe back doors but they said its an offence for sq. More than 3way system


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