# Just did the big three... New battery... lights still dim.



## psud3ity (Mar 10, 2009)

Ok, so heres the rundown. My battery died the other day, was only putting out 10.2v.

I quickly remedied this situation with an optima red top, which was what my budget would allow and came recommended by several friends. I noticed my lights no longer dimmed.

I had planned to do the big three (actually the big four but i'll get to that) for a few weeks now and finally today had a day off to do it.

I upgraded the battery to chassis ground and since it was easy to get to, I also upgraded my battery to starter wire as well since I knew I had some extra wire. Figured it couldn't hurt. All is well. Drove around, no dimming.

Then I started to do some research on the other grounds I'd need to upgrade. I've got a 2000 Honda Prelude. I then upgraded the ground at the valvecover to chassis, which was the easiest to get to. There apparently is another one near my transmission, but that's going to require jacking the car up to get to. I noticed that my lights dimmed slightly. The 1 farad cap I have in my trunk now read 14.0v with the car on. This is a new high number.

At this point I figure it fair to mention that I did not discharge the capacitor as I only had the battery disconnected for a few minutes at a time. **FLAME REPELLENT** I am still alive, and I know this is not the safest thing in the world to do.

So, albeit dark out, I bust out the flashlight and continue on my merry way, running from the alternator to the battery. Cap now reads 14.6v. This is unprecedented. I turn the car on, reset the head unit settings, and crank it up. Lights are dimming, although the cap doesn't seem to drop below 12.6v at all.

I know caps are a band aid and I only left it in the loop until a distribution block shows up that will allow me to replace it. The only other thing I can think of is not charging the cap... I've been searching for the little card used to discharge and recharge the thing... It's around somewhere. Could that be my issue? Even though the cap has such a high reading?

Why the hell are my lights dimming? I'll drive the car around tomorrow with everything off for a little while to make sure the battery is fully charged, but this battery is absolutely brand new... I'm stumped.


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

how's the ground in the back?

i wouldn't do big 3 on a valve cover bolt.

test lights work great for discharging caps. another way is to pull your main fuse and turn the radio on, the amps will drain them fast enough.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

The "Big Three" isn't the cure all people claim it is. In fact, I'd say it's actually non-sense for most installs.

The big 3 buzz has made it's way through the interweb so there's no stopping it now.


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

The big 3 is an internet bandwagon thing. 

Try installing a cap and see what happens.


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## psud3ity (Mar 10, 2009)

Thumper26 said:


> how's the ground in the back?
> 
> i wouldn't do big 3 on a valve cover bolt.
> 
> test lights work great for discharging caps. another way is to pull your main fuse and turn the radio on, the amps will drain them fast enough.


Never thought of that...




starboy869 said:


> The big 3 is an internet bandwagon thing.
> 
> Try installing a cap and see what happens.


If you read, I already have one.

Still wondering why it would dim before this and not after doing the upgrade... It might be overkill for most installs but... overkill is good isn't it?


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

How big is your system? Maybe 1fd isn't enough?

How about installing one inline of your main power feed for the car?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

everything you posted about are loads on your electrical system. Battery is a load once the vehicle is started. Cap is an additional load. Lights, amps, etc... are all loads on your electrical system.

want a cure? get a bigger alternator since thats what actually provide current to your system once you start the car.


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## psud3ity (Mar 10, 2009)

starboy869 said:


> How big is your system? Maybe 1fd isn't enough?
> 
> How about installing one inline of your main power feed for the car?


I've got a Rockford Fosgate T500.2, around 800w RMS on the birthsheet as I have it right now. I've got a P400.4 powering door speakers. No sheet for that one since I bought it secondhand.



Mic10is said:


> everything you posted about are loads on your electrical system. Battery is a load once the vehicle is started. Cap is an additional load. Lights, amps, etc... are all loads on your electrical system.
> 
> want a cure? get a bigger alternator since thats what actually provide current to your system once you start the car.


My question is this, is having that capacitor worth the extra load to charge it? I'm trying to solve this problem without dropping $300+ on a high output alternator... If it comes down to it I will, but I'm trying to eliminate every other weak point that I can.

What really is bothering me about this is that it wasn't dimming before I upgraded the wiring. Could it be that with that upgraded wiring the amps are simply just able to draw more power?

EDIT: Another thought. Am I missing a more significant engine to chassis ground?


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

caps dont do shiznit, especially a 1 farad..read an enjoy

After studying a little history on large 1 Farad capacitors in car audio, you'd be amazed that they even sell at all. How useful are they? What do they really do? Will a Cap 'improve' my sound quality? Will it Prevent my lights from dimming? Will it audibly affect my audio system in any way?

Before you get the truth to any of the above questions, chances are, you've probably spent $100 or more on one of these devices. However, let's study a little history regarding this issue.

A long time ago, in a land far away, 2 elves...Ok, Richard Clark & Wayne Harris (Carsound magazine and the inventor of DB Drag, respectively) separately came up with a solution to preventing their lights from dimming.

WHO WERE THESE GUYZ?

As you may know, Richard Clark is one of the founders of autosound2000 Tech Briefs, Carsound magazine, and a published author of the industry of mobile electronics. In SQ competitions, he posted a record of 1234 1st place finishes, and only ended up NOT 1st in his first event. I've heard that he had minor system problems, but judging by his record, he must have corrected it. (evidently, he needed a Capacitor )

Wayne Harris was previously a leader at Rockford Fosgate in their development. Later, in his free time, he created the organization we call DB DRAG. Wayne was the first SQ World Champion from the organization we know as IASCA (International AutoSound Challenge Association).

Both of these gurus are both legends, and considered the leading experts in the field. During their competition days, both guyz came up with a way to assist in the prevention of voltage drops. In SQ competitions, the look of your system is actually more important than the sound, and having your lights NOT dim under high playing levels is a competitive advantage.

As you may know, amplifiers are made up a bank of little capacitors, resistors, etc. What has been common engineering knowledge is that capacitors store energy, and more or bigger ones assist in balancing the power supply.

Wayne came up with the idea of putting several dozen 'little' (approx 100uF) capacitors on a circuit board to 'extend' the power supplies storage. At about the same time, or shortly afterward, Richard came up with the idea of one huge mondo capacitor (I believe it was 800,000uF or 0.8F) to do the job.

Eventually, Richard won. The large cylindrical tubes won over the complicated 48 caps strapped to a circuit board. However, what did this really accomplish? Let's start here:

WHAT IS A CAPACITOR?

Basically, capacitors are an energy storage device. Large, 1 Farad or more
capacitors store energy (electrons) between their plates. Capacitors differ
from batteries because batteries store energy in the form of chemical
energy--and rely on acid and lead plates, as the place of storage. For a more detailed
description of a capacitor, go here:

http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm

Then on the right hand side, scroll down to CAPACITOR. Keep in mind the use
of capacitors in an audio system.

WHY DO PEOPLE BUY CAPACITORS?

The number 1 reason would have to be because their lights dim when their
system is playing HARD. In car audio, we are told that a capacitor is
designed to prevent the voltage drop associated with your lights dimming.
The number2 reason is that it is rumored to 'improve' sound quality or
'stiffen' the power supply/source.

WHY DO MY LIGHTS DIM?

Headlights brightness is in direct proportion to the source voltage. For
instance, if your car is running, system voltage is ~12.5 -14.4 VOLTS. Your
lights will be much brighter than when your car is turned off--where battery
voltage is ~12V. Most car alternators put out between 75 to 120 amps of
current. When this current draw threshold of the charging system is
exceeded, system voltage will drop as power demands are now shared by the
alternator and the storage devices (battery & cap). We are using battery
reserves beyond this point until the demand lessens

When playing your system really hard. Your lights dim because your
alternator can't keep up it's charging voltage (around 13.5V) and therefore,
demand exceeds output. When this happens, your electronic devices are
dipping into the power storage of the battery. Since the battery stores
power at ~ 12-12.5V, there is a 1.3 to 1.8V drop in voltage available. This
in turn is why your lights dim down.

HOW MUCH POWER DOES A CAPACITOR STORE?

1 Farad = 100 joules or 100W/second
850cca battery = ~2,200,000 farads

For storage purposes, you'd need ~2,200 1 Farad capacitors to equal the energy of your battery.

Due to its impedence (ESR & ESL), a cap's energy is only 50% available. What's worse, is that in order for a 1 Farad cap to discharge, first the alternator output must have maxed out, and the voltage must have dropped around 1.5 volts. But I thought a cap was supposed to prevent that (voltage drop)!!!!!????? Yep, you got the point.


IF A BATTERY = 2,200 CAPS, THEN WHY BUY A (PUNY) CAP?

My question exactly. Marketing is the reason why people buy caps. In many cases, upgrading wiring will help your system get the maximum transfer of current. Once that has been reached, adding a capacitor may have a minor effect on your system. 50W over the course of a second is not a lot of power considering an amplifier may draw 2000W to put out 1400 watts. Let's look at the situation from a resources standpoint.

Alternator 80 amps
Car accessories (minus stereo) 40 amps
A large Car Audio system (DRAWS ) ~200 amps AT FULL OUTPUT

In this case, you have 240 amps of draw, but only 80 amps of current from the alternator. In your case, you need 160 amps x 12 volts or or let's say 1920 watts of energy. Since a cap stores 50W, how much of a difference do you think it's going to make? A cap is basically a peashooter. W+e need a Howitzer cannon here, to do the job well.

Also, Once a cap is discharged, where does it get it's power from? The alternator, which is already overloaded. Once a cap is discharged, it's worthless. Like SWEZ says, ・.The cap already shot its wad, an does limp til recharged・ I知 not so certain I will allow him to babysit my kids, but you get the drift. (I never said it quiet like that... and oh...I'm great with kids!)

SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?

1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy
2. Extra weight in winter time
3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block
4. A projectile in the event of a crash
5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes
6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this..


Please do not try # 6. New hairstyles are always refreshing, but if you are wearing railroad tracks across your teeth, you might have one big filling after it痴 over.

HOW CAN CAPACITORS IMPROVE SOUND QUALITY?

They can't. Sound quality is not dependant upon the presence of large bulky 1 Farad capacitors. How many 1 Farad Capacitors do you think the Boston Pops, Aerosmith, or Snoop dog use in the recording studio?

IN A NUTSHELL.......

When Richard, our fearless inventor, became World renown for winning every competition under the sun, people began copying what he did. Soon, every 'serious' competitor had a 'stiffening' capacitor--not to be confused with the 'loosening' capacitor.

WHY?

In the late 80s, people began sticking out their tongue when dunking the basketball because Michael Jordan did. Did sticking out your tongue improve your dunking ability? Same here with adding a capacitor to your electrical system.

STILL A GLUTTON FOR MORE PUNISHMENT?

Here's the Original Cap Debate.

http://www.carsound.com/ubb/Archives...-1-000307.html

Phoenix Gold's marketing guru had just posted information on how their Powercore (basically the Alumapro CAP15 in a Phoenix shell) had both stabilized their voltage and improved the sound quality. Richard called him on it (all in another post) and the marketing geek was unable to quantify any of the conditions that resulted in the voltage being HELD at 14.2V and the 'improved' sound quality.

Please do not read every stinking post as valid. There are a lot of people that have had the efficacy of capacitors inbred to their minds, and were not (and still not) convinced in the futility of a 1 Farad storage device.

In a final note, Richard relayed a quote regarding battcaps ( www.battcap.net ) as, "..The audio industry is the only place i know of where you can publish specs that show your product is useless and still be able to sell them------and whats worse is that technically ignorant people will argue against the math!!!!!!!..............RC.." when referring to the product. This also relates to most digital readout capacitors, and I wish my Archie Bunker skills could have said it better myself.

here is the original thread for this..so i dont get credit for this haha


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

also..bigger wiring allows for more current to run through them therefore creating a bigger draw on the alt and batt. so in theory since there is less resistance in the bigger gauge wire then it could be using more power than before...so yes an alternator would be the next step since a new battery didnt solve anything.
ive got a vid proving the battery doesnt have much to do with the car when it is running...let me upload it


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## Catman (Mar 18, 2008)

IMO if your lights dim you need a better amp. Amps require a certain amount of capacitance for a given output. These days mfg's (especially low-fi / mid-fi) are looking to cut corners ...power supplies are a good place. I have ran 1000W systems in my Miata with NO dimming of lights with Nakamichi / Orion HCCA (old school) and new model McIntosh amps. OTOH, for 'grins and giggles' I have ran a 500W Audiobahn and the lights dimmed.

A capacitor stores energy ...and so does a battery. A capacitor can release the energy very fast which is what you need for audio ...a battery can't release it very fast ...but it can release it steadily for a long time. I've seen people install multiple batteries thinking it will solve the problem. As mentioned ...the "Big 3" is greatly over rated (bandwagon) ...so are 'caps' ...great for 'brag factor' ...not very useful in real life.

>^..^<


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## freemind (Sep 11, 2008)

G-ddamn Austin, teach well my friend. Current and flow..................................

And to the OP,

Use big and solid grounds on the amp(s) like Thumper says.

Oh yeah, which lights are dimming on you?


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## tspence73 (Oct 14, 2008)

> Just did the big three... New battery... lights still dim.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> want a cure? *get a bigger alternator* since thats what actually provide current to your system once you start the car.





Austin said:


> also..bigger wiring allows for more current to run through them therefore creating a bigger draw on the alt and batt. so in theory since there is less resistance in the bigger gauge wire then it could be using more power than before...so yes an *alternator* would be the next step since a new battery didnt solve anything.


*Bingo !!!*

Get a bigger pump , you've enlarged the pipes now let us use them, get something that will generate more flow


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

My friend had a alt whine that just wouldn't go away. He had AC Voltage present at his amp. Since caps are also design to filter out unwanted AC voltage this got rid of this alt whine.

You need a batcap 300 or 400. I should dig out my wrangler 170a highoutput alt in my closet and make you a good deal.  I wished I could just it, but it won't workout for a J series engine.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

psud3ity said:


> I quickly remedied this situation with an optima red top, which was what my budget would allow and came recommended by several friends. *I noticed my lights no longer dimmed.*


I don't understand why everyone is recommending he buy a new alternator, bigger caps, etc when he said before he did the big 3, he didn't have dimming. Seems like he did something himself somewhere along the line while upgrading the big 3. 

Someone wanna see if they can figure out what happened rather than throw out nonsensical solutions?


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

my thoughts on that is the ground terminals aren't secured well enough (see my build log for my favorite installer tool ever: the hammer crimper), or the new grounds are in bad spots, aren't sanded well enough, or aren't secured tightly. and i'd REALLY avoid using a head bolt.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> I don't understand why everyone is recommending he buy a new alternator, bigger caps, etc when he said before he did the big 3, he didn't have dimming. Seems like he did something himself somewhere along the line while upgrading the big 3.
> 
> Someone wanna see if they can figure out what happened rather than throw out nonsensical solutions?


Only other thing that comes to mind on a *Honda is the ELD circuit*


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Thumper26 said:


> my thoughts on that is the ground terminals aren't secured well enough (see my build log for my favorite installer tool ever: the hammer crimper), or the new grounds are in bad spots, aren't sanded well enough, or aren't secured tightly. and i'd REALLY avoid using a head bolt.


I concur. 




a$$hole said:


> Only other thing that comes to mind on a *Honda is the ELD circuit*


That stupid friggin thing. 
But, again, he said all was well before the big 3 upgrade. If that’s true, I’m willing to bet he just has a loose connection somewhere.
Furthermore, would a new alt even work to fix the problem for the same reason? The ELD would still regulate the voltage, wouldn't it? (I don't have much knowledge on this subject so I really don't know)
It seems to me that someone here or a civic forum actually put a larger alt in to fix his problem and it didn't do a thing. I could go through the paces of a search if it matters.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Electric Load Detection circuit has to be addressed [ turning on headlights gives the signal for the alternator to output more juice ]


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> Electric Load Detection circuit has to be addressed [ turning on headlights gives the signal for the alternator to output more juice ]


Right. I did some digging, and couldn’t find the exact post, but I did find someone quoting where a guy had said he put in an HO alt, and still reads 12v because the ELD is in the path and limits voltage. Like you said, if you want it to kick up you have to give the alternator a kick in the jeans (headlights, rpm rev, etc). 

Still, I don’t see how this answers his question if he had no issues before the big 3. I think we’re just getting side tracked.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

I haven't read too closely but does this make any sense?

No dimming with stock wiring because wire limited the amount of current that the amps could pull.

Dimming after big 3 since amp could then pull the current.

Dunno, it's early, does that make any sense?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

We are not sidetracked 

He has put a bigger hose on the same size pump = more flow rate.

Now he needs a bigger pump to fill the hoses . . . or, he could turn the volume knob to the left 

If you want your hose to spray harder . . . put a nozzle on it [ this will increase the pressure [ voltage ] and lessen the flow rate in GPM [ current ].

If you like what you see when a firetruck is putting out a fire [ think massive hose and pump motor ] , subwoofers pounding like a mofo , headlights staying bright , feed the system some juice !

Read the Wayne Harris thread 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio/61656-car-audio-history-question.html


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

now we're on the same track. I thought you were strictly associating the ELD with the cause. But I follow you now.

In that case, I agree with you and I believe t3snf4 is correct, too. Larger area, higher flowrate, more pressure to keep from choked flow (dimming).

So, I'm wrong in that regard. And I submit to your addition to this post. 
I was just trying to look at it simplistically rather than say he needs to buy a new alt. I still have a gut feeling he did something wrong in the process. I know plenty of people running a lot of power (myself included) on a stock alt. The larger battery is the best upgrade I did and I did it after the big 3. Though, the big 3 did seem to help a bit at the time.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

OK . . . let's say you want to light up some wrinkle walls you installed on your stock car .!

You put it in low , tromp on the pedal . . . and now it's slower ? [ what did you forget ? ]

The bitchin motor  [ you need to step up from a four-cylinder to a V-8, 600 whp , detroit locker rear end , 5-point harness , roll bar , etc..,  ]

*You need to power it FIRST !*


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

Would it be possible to upgrade your main power feed for the car. Upgrade the wiring in the fuse box and run your power through the 12v port? Not to sure but the ecu would detect a load would it not?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

you CAN upgrade the wire to the fuse box, you will then need to find an open fuse slot for the amp (which my car has none) I'm still stuck with the ELD not detecting the amplifier loading.


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## psud3ity (Mar 10, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> I don't understand why everyone is recommending he buy a new alternator, bigger caps, etc when he said before he did the big 3, he didn't have dimming. Seems like he did something himself somewhere along the line while upgrading the big 3.
> 
> Someone wanna see if they can figure out what happened rather than throw out nonsensical solutions?


Thanks for getting us back on track. My original thought was thats the case as I didn't have this issue before... 



Thumper26 said:


> my thoughts on that is the ground terminals aren't secured well enough (see my build log for my favorite installer tool ever: the hammer crimper), or the new grounds are in bad spots, aren't sanded well enough, or aren't secured tightly. and i'd REALLY avoid using a head bolt.


Yeah, about crimpers. I didn't crimp any of the connectors I used, they're all soldered in place... I figured that'd work just as well considering the connectors I used aren't really crimp style.




bikinpunk said:


> I concur.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Explain this ELD thing to me? So my car knows when accessories are turned on? Interesting.



t3sn4f2 said:


> I haven't read too closely but does this make any sense?
> 
> No dimming with stock wiring because wire limited the amount of current that the amps could pull.
> 
> ...


That's the other theory I'm working over in my head here...


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

search for a Honda forum . . . type in ELD circuit


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## psud3ity (Mar 10, 2009)

a$$hole said:


> search for a Honda forum . . . type in ELD circuit


Tried over at preludepower, no one seems to have a thread for it.... I'm sure one of the service manual ninjas can come up with a wiring diagram for me... I'll post it up when I find it.

Ninja Edit: Found this on another forum, I'm assuming it correlates to ECU wiring...



> 6. D10 is ELD, what is that stand for? - electrical load detector. its part of the fusebox, it detects how much current the entire electrical system is using, so the ecu knows how much additional fuel to inject to compensate for it and to maintain a good steady idle


I'm unsure of whether that's something I really want to mess with... I don't have any issues with the engine idling. But it may still affect the alt? I'll wait for the diagram to be sure.


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

I just read through this... A$$ & Bikin have you pointed in the right direction(s)..

1.) if you are already heavy on the 'Lude forums, read up where people have specifically upgraded WHICH grounds & how they did it.. a Big 3 upgrade is 90% proper termination & the proper locations. _Import Tuner _& _SCC_ both made hp & tq on WRX's & Honda's with some experimentation on locations.

2.) if everything was rosey before you did the Big 3, something in the physical install is to blame. Replacing/upgrading anything will only be a backwards step toward the REAL solution.. I don't remember what gauge wire you said (if you did) you stepped up to on the big 3, or what types of connectors you used. If its anything over 8ga wire, they should be soldered using the Bench vise holding the ring terminal open end up... have your wire stripped & ready, heat the connector, fill the connector almost full with solder (it takes awhile & a lot of solder) then keep the heat on it & slide the bare wire home & hold it with pliers... let it cool... DO NOT spray it with anything to speed it up... Also be sure that all the grounds are clear of paint & clean/chase the threads of the bolts/threads... 

Why do you have a cap to begin with if the car had no issues? Was the battery the original Bat to the 2000 'Lude?

Lastly.. I know it sounds elementary, but did you clean the battery terminals & the cable ends when you installed the new battery?

Good luck.

Rob


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

to add to txwrxwagon's post on the ring terminals check this video out made by chad, its the 39th post down.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...all-terminals-1-0-cable-ground-questions.html


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Basicly, when upgrading big3, stock ground to battery should not be removed. What I see is a bad connection on it. 
Or the best still, route an 1/0 from battery's -ve to amps ground via a distribution block.


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

kyheng said:


> Basicly, when upgrading big3, stock ground to battery should not be removed. What I see is a bad connection on it.
> Or the best still, route an 1/0 from battery's -ve to amps ground via a distribution block.


so he should run a separate, dedicated 1/0 gauge wire for ground? i guess that would be a last resort.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

psud3ity said:


> My question is this, is having that capacitor worth the extra load to charge it?


A cap isn't a load! Anyone who tells you it is doesn't understand circuits well enough to be commenting. Sorry to be harsh, but I'm sick of people not listening.



> What really is bothering me about this is that it wasn't dimming before I upgraded the wiring. Could it be that with that upgraded wiring the amps are simply just able to draw more power?


I think you're on to something. 

What is DIMMING? Dimming has nothing at all to do with absolute values. It has to do with relative values. In other words, how bright the headlights are doesn't mean jack ****. What matters is how bright they are in comparison to the dim portions. Your big 3 upgrade could have increased the average brightness of the headlights, but it may not have reduced the max dimness. So what you may have inadvertantly done is enhanced the voltage swing on your headlights.

Maybe.

Or you jacked up one of your grounds somewhere in the process.


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

But once a cap discharges its storage charge, it need to be recharge back, right? If on this point it don't put another extra load to the alternator, then what is it called? Need to know this.

I'm running seperate ground now for my amps where stock earth to battery still never change and a 4AWG from back to battery. I don't have any dimming issues. 
If any of us look for the resistance table on various metals, 1 will find out that car chasis(which made by iron mostly), resistance is very high.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> What is DIMMING? Dimming has nothing at all to do with absolute values. It has to do with relative values. In other words, how bright the headlights are doesn't mean jack ****. What matters is how bright they are in comparison to the dim portions. Your big 3 upgrade could have increased the average brightness of the headlights, but it may not have reduced the max dimness. So what you may have inadvertantly done is enhanced the voltage swing on your headlights.


I was trying to find a way to say this all day, thanks Mark!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

kyheng said:


> But once a cap discharges its storage charge, it need to be recharge back, right? If on this point it don't put another extra load to the alternator, then what is it called? Need to know this.


A load dissipates energy. A cap doesn't do this. In the context of this thread, people are claiming that a cap steals some of the energy that the alternator would otherwise be delivering to the amp. A cap doesn't do this either.

A cap discharges only when the system voltage goes below the cap's steady state voltage. Then it's adding current to the amplifier, in parallel with the current delivered by the alternator (and battery). _Similarly, a cap will only recharge when the system voltage goes above the cap's voltage._

^^^ That's the key point right there. The cap is gonna hold off on the recharge UNTIL the electrical system rebounds (either due to an actual rebound, or due to the amp suddenly drawing less current). It physically can't draw any current until the voltage begins to go back up.

So what's happening is this: the capacitor draws current WHEN IT DOESN'T MATTER. It's not drawing current during peak demands. It's waiting for the in-between time to recharge.

So, what a cap is actually doing is reducing the peak draws from the alt/battery while increasing the current drawn during the downtimes. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.

The battery's doing something similar. Although it operates at a fairly constant (lower) voltage. So it can't really help when the voltage fluctuation is above the battery voltage. And, unlike the cap, it does act as a load.

So, a capacitor does something kinda unique, and doesn't do anything detrimental. There's no reason to NOT use one. They put them inside amps for a reason.  The only question is: will added capacitance do something useful for you? Well, I don't use one. I don't think I'd hear a difference in sound by providing a steadier voltage to the amp (hell, I'd probably upgrade the rail caps before I'd add a capacitor, if sound was my goal...). 

If I had dimming issues, I'd consider 1) using a better battery; 2) using more efficient amps; or 3) adding a capacitor. Probably in that order. 

In my particular car, I'd actually put the capacitor under the hood. The battery is mounted in the trunk. The alternator runs 1/0 back to the battery, but there's still an impedance associated with it and all the connections, etc. The headlights tap off the engine-compartment fusebox, so I'd probably hook the cap up to that. Unless it was pretty, then it would sit back with the amps. 




> I'm running seperate ground now for my amps where stock earth to battery still never change and a 4AWG from back to battery. I don't have any dimming issues.
> If any of us look for the resistance table on various metals, 1 will find out that car chasis(which made by iron mostly), resistance is very high.


I dunno. Even if it was all iron, it's still metal. Metal conducts superbly! Especially when it's very thick metal. So even if copper conducts 10x better than iron, that just means you use an iron "cable" 10 times the area of the copper cable. Since area = pi*r^2, the diameter of your cable only has to be about 1.8 x the diameter of the copper cable. The effective diameter of a vehicle's chassis is pretty damned big.

I think the bigger issue is with the connections.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

A cap acts as a battery, especially in parallel with a battery, think of it as a gross ass bypass if you may. Batteries are getting MONUMENTALLY better... buy a good battery.

And amplifier's rail caps are AFTER the switching power supply where other items cannot change the charge rate in a reulated amp and even inan UN REGUALTED i dare to see you find a AC clutch or any other inrush pull FROM the rail caps....

Caps belong on the rails period.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Get one of these and put it on the lights. No more dimming. 

Audio Accuvolt


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Get one of these and put it on the lights. No more dimming.
> 
> Audio Accuvolt


Win! 

/thread.


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

that reminds me of my situation. ive got some illegal aftermarket hids with ballasts so i dont have to worry about lights dimming at all, atleast my headlights. its basically that but muccchhh smaller (2.5 x 1.5 x .25 thick) and it puts out 75 volts to the bulbs but i dont think it can handle the amperage like the accuvolt haha like 100 amps! damn..


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

mark : I think I starting to get your points... 
1. So when a car never being started, the voltage in battery, cap is 12V. 
2. When the car starts, the voltage will be at 13.8-14.4V and cap will be charge till that level, right?
3. When the current demands on amps is >what alternator can supply, the voltage will drop and cap's will follow too after discharge some of its charge, right?
4. And as long as there is no current demand reduction, the cap will stay at a constant voltage without doing any work, right?

Agree with you on metals do conduct, but till certain extend. And our car is made from steel, and there's lots of standard for it. Anyway, there's no point to discuss futher on this(I guess). Connection to the ground is more important.


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## SPAZ (Jan 7, 2009)

Caps are a waste because they are only good for one bump or two and then you go back to how it was before. Depending on the alternator and how much power you have sometimes the only real option is to upgrade the alt but that's a lot of money. That's one big reason why I'm trying to keep my system as efficient as possible.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

kyheng said:


> mark : I think I starting to get your points...
> 1. So when a car never being started, the voltage in battery, cap is 12V.
> 2. When the car starts, the voltage will be at 13.8-14.4V and cap will be charge till that level, right?
> 3. When the current demands on amps is >what alternator can supply, the voltage will drop and cap's will follow too after discharge some of its charge, right?
> 4. And as long as there is no current demand reduction, the cap will stay at a constant voltage without doing any work, right?


Bingo.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

My opinion is people freak out a little too much over a little dimming. Even with a healthy electrical system, there are times when the lights may dim a bit. As long as the dimming isn't major, i wouldn't be concerned. That said, I'd make sure you have a good solid battery and that the wiring is up to par. As long as you have that, a little dimming isn't going to hurt anything. Chances are you are only getting dimming when your RPM's are really low.

I understand your concern though, considering the dimming started after doing something that was intended to prevent the problem.


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## psud3ity (Mar 10, 2009)

The lights i'm referring to are my high beams (low beams are HIDs), along with all the interior lights including the spedometer/tach.

It seems to have subsided since I played around with a few of the connections. I still want to find another location to put an engine-chassis ground as the connection at the valvecover seemed to affect it the most.

Would the alternator bracket be a good place to make this connection? Logic tells me since the alternator housing is the "best" ground in the car that would probably help quite a bit...

The lights at this point only dim when the subwoofer really digs in.

I've also got new battery terminals coming in... Hopefully those will help the issue as well.


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## bird333 (May 28, 2008)

I am definately not an expert but looking at my manual for an Accord the ELD seems to detect how much current is being drawn from the battery and if it is below 10A it tells the ECU to tell the alternator to drop output from 14.5v to 12.5. I don't see how this would prevent a HO alternator from doing its job unless maybe the ELD and/or the ECU is faulty.


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## kyheng (Jan 31, 2007)

Looks like upgrading alternator is the best way....


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## aztec1 (Jun 13, 2008)

gijoe said:


> My opinion is people freak out a little too much over a little dimming. Even with a healthy electrical system, there are times when the lights may dim a bit. As long as the dimming isn't major, i wouldn't be concerned. That said, I'd make sure you have a good solid battery and that the wiring is up to par. As long as you have that, a little dimming isn't going to hurt anything. Chances are you are only getting dimming when your RPM's are really low.
> 
> I understand your concern though, considering the dimming started after doing something that was intended to prevent the problem.


+1. The amount of energy contained in the electrical system of a car is finite. Connections and such only help out what's already there. Dimming lights is a great indicator that the electrical system is working exactly like it should. All a cap does is move the "dimming" from the lights to the cap, just get a proper size and speed for the amount of power you have and it will go away.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

It's not whether or not the* IDIOT light is on* . . . it's how bright it is  [ explained to me by a woman who was having a new motor installed after her oil light came on when she was driving on the freeway ]

As long as you're not *buying new batteries* or whatever . . . you're good to go !

If you end up buying amps and speakers and such , it's safe to say OOPS :blush:

*The problem is OUTflow is greater than INflow.* No subwoofer amp , no problem !


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## chrisw85 (Apr 24, 2008)

What are you running on your sub-stage? What impedance and what amp specifically and what gauge wire to and from the amp?

I have a 94 civic, running 700W from a Blaupunkt VA1400 to a single RSDC124 (dual 4) wired to 2 ohms, so the amp is pushing about 700W...plus I have about 300W rms (150x2 bridged) going to my passive comps (for now)...at full tilt on bass heavy and bass specific songs I get no dimming, and this is at a volume enough to create 'too much pressure' on my ear drums...

I'm running a separate 4ga to the sub amp, 8 ga to the 4ch bridged amp, and my stock negative wire off the battery (it appears to be 4-6 ga). I've read that upgrading the battery ground and transmission to frame ground is the best thing to do because the stock positive off the alternator is already sized appropriately for what the alternator puts out and the length of that cable.

Just some thoughts...


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

chrisw85 said:


> What are you running on your sub-stage? What impedance and what amp specifically and what gauge wire to and from the amp?
> 
> I have a 94 civic, running 700W from a Blaupunkt VA1400 to a single RSDC124 (dual 4) wired to 2 ohms, so the amp is pushing about 700W...plus I have about 300W rms (150x2 bridged) going to my passive comps (for now)...at full tilt on bass heavy and bass specific songs I get no dimming, and this is at a volume enough to create 'too much pressure' on my ear drums...
> 
> ...


There's no need to upgrade the alt to battery cable, unless you upgrade the alt. The stock wire will handle all of the current that the stock alt puts out.


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## JJDH (Mar 8, 2009)

just add another battery......wtf


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

Now the stock alt now has to keep two batteries charged. I would either put a cap on your headlight power wire or get a very good aftermarket battery.


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## Speedy2222 (Apr 4, 2009)

Austin said:


> also..bigger wiring allows for more current to run through them therefore creating a bigger draw on the alt and batt. so in theory since there is less resistance in the bigger gauge wire then it could be using more power than before...so yes an alternator would be the next step since a new battery didnt solve anything.
> ive got a vid proving the battery doesnt have much to do with the car when it is running...let me upload it


lol if i have to i'll take a video of my truck running without a battery in it if people still don't believe it!!!


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

I wish I took video of the times my battery became disconnected and the audio system would shut off when the bass would hit. And this was in a Caddy with a 105A alt.


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## JJDH (Mar 8, 2009)

starboy869 said:


> Now the stock alt now has to keep two batteries charged. I would either put a cap on your headlight power wire or get a very good aftermarket battery.


 the whole idea is that the system runs off of the second battery. u should know that..as far as alt charging both, the alt doesnt know the difference,.isolate the second, that way if ur radio isnt on the second battery isnt being used, or charged. forget the cap here there or anywhere. ii went with a kinetic 1800hc, no more dim. i have a 600hc on reserve


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> The ELD would still regulate the voltage, wouldn't it? (I don't have much knowledge on this subject so I really don't know)
> It seems to me that someone here or a civic forum actually put a larger alt in to fix his problem and it didn't do a thing. I could go through the paces of a search if it matters.


The ELD will still regulate voltage! A 175 amp HO alternator on a Honda is fairly useless when the ELD drops the charging voltage from 14.4 volts down between 12.5 and 12.7 volts.



a$$hole said:


> Electric Load Detection circuit has to be addressed [ turning on headlights gives the signal for the alternator to output more juice ]


That only works for a little while. Once the vehicle reaches a "static" state, such as when I used to drive more than 1 hour on the interstate with my headlights and AC running full blast, the ELD would still drop the voltage to "save energy".



bikinpunk said:


> Right. I did some digging, and couldn’t find the exact post, but I did find someone quoting where a guy had said he put in an HO alt, and still reads 12v because the ELD is in the path and limits voltage. Like you said, if you want it to kick up you have to give the alternator a kick in the jeans (headlights, rpm rev, etc).


You can trick it for a little while but it will still kick in to conserve energy. 



chad said:


> I'm still stuck with the ELD not detecting the amplifier loading.


Oddly, someone on the Civic forum PMed me some schematics and technically the ELD "should" read a load off the battery, not just the fuse box. I think with the dynamic nature of a car audio amplifier, the ELD is not quick enough to react and therefore drops voltage anyhow. Either that, or since the draw is not constant in some cases. My thought is that the ELD ignores the battery and only reads what goes through the fuse box since that is where it is located.

Most on this forum with already know my solution to the ELD issue in my 1997 Civic but I figured I would type it here just in case someone searches. I went with an ODB2a to ODB1 conversion harness and had a tuner program the ELD function out of a P28 ECU for me. The whole ECU swap added another $275 for the programmed ECU and the conversion harness to my HO alternator. I ordered everything from **HERE** after emailing with the owner.

*The Pros:*

I have no more ELD voltage regulation so my HO alternator keeps the voltage up.

The tuner automatically added a premium base fuel map for my Civic. I can't really tell a difference performance wise (bahahahaha, it is a farking Civic with a D16Y8:laugh but, I am old school and believe in running premium fuel from the good old days.

*The cons:*

I was told this will lead to an alternator that dies quicker without the ELD. Only time will tell on this one.

I won't pass emissions should my area start to test for it because my secondary O2 sensor is not detected in the ODB1 ECU. The good thing is that I still have my original ECU and it takes a whopping 5 minutes to swap them out.

I was told that the fuel economy would be reduced due to the increased number of windings in the alternator. Regardless, I still get 27 to 30 MPG in the City and 34 to 36 MPG on the highway and I need new spark plugs to boot. I am also going to change the fuel filter while I am at it.

The tuners I spoke with would only tune an ECU for a manual transmission. I don't know why they don't do automatics, but, for some reason they don't. Also, if you have a newer Honda about your only option would be a JDM ECU since the ELD circuit is only for the North American Continent. Thanks tree hugging eco weenies for that one!

I hope this helps explain the lovely Honda ELD as I know it.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Speedy2222 said:


> lol if i have to i'll take a video of my truck running without a battery in it if people still don't believe it!!!


That was an old school way that my grandfather taught me to check to see if the alternator was going bad. Start the car, turn on the head lights, disconnect the battery. If the headlights shine and the car stays running, the alternator is producing a charge. Conversely, if the headlights don't turn on and/or the car dies, you have a problem.

Of course, that method won't tell you if you have bad diodes in the alternator or if the alternator is outputting a fraction of what it is supposed to be. For that, I bring my car to an electrician buddy who has all kinds of Fluke equipment or bring the alternator to Vato Zone.


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

Wouldn't it not be possible to run your power for the amps through the fuse box?


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## bird333 (May 28, 2008)

This kinda explains the charging system circuit (pages 1-2). What do you guys think?


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## chrisw85 (Apr 24, 2008)

You say you're running a 2-ch amp bridged to your sub(s), but at what impedance? A bridged two channel is best run at 4 ohms total even if the manufacturer says its 2 ohm stable bridged--current draw increases dramatically when lower impedance are used.

My understanding of batteries is that the more current the batteries are supplying or the more current capacity the batteries have, the less your lights will dim. My understanding is that capacitors don't really reserve current for the amp but rather they serve to stabilize voltage. And alternators really only charge the system that they cannot or do not provide the instantaneous current transient demands of an amplifier, everything in the car is drawn from the battery (or batteries) (this would explain why many car manufacturers have devices to "shut off" or reduce output of the alternator when current demands are low--the battery doesn't need to be charged as fast when demands are low). If you need more current capacity, get more batteries and get a bigger alternator to keep them charged faster.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

What did you find when you did a search for SPL vehicles ?

They'll be using batteries and alternators,etc..,

Downscale to what is appropriate for your needs!


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## JJDH (Mar 8, 2009)

add another battery dedicated for ur larger amp of the system, add a pac 200 isolator relay(no voltage drop) prollem solved. i just got done doing the install in my suv. the results are excelent, no dimming, full power at amp, sounds excellent... the amp now soley runs off that battery alone. im no expert, but real worlde testing doesnt take a scholar to see result..........**** a cap, get another battery.period


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## bird333 (May 28, 2008)

It would seem according to this thread ELD,Alternator & Fuel Cut,A/C,Idle Tweaks - Team Integra

Simply cutting ALTC wire would keep the alternator from going into low output mode.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Good article bird333 ^^^

wonder if kelly knows what he is talking about ?

quote>


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Message posted by kelly on Aug/18/04 at 6:04pm - IP Logged
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I have been having some fun playing with the alternator control and ELD idle up circuits. I noticed my alternator was turning off sometimes when it shouldn't be. I then realized that my foglights were hooked so that the ELD no longer measured them. I also rewired my headlights right to the alternator with relays, so they were no longer being measured. So I moved the foglights to be measured and added a resistor to ground to the ELD circuit to get things right. I played with it and now it idles up when I think the load is enough. BTW, the ITR has a higher base idle than the GS-R as well as a higher decel fuel cut RPM.

Then I played some more and found that during a big load addition, the computer cuts the alternator off for about .5 sec which is exactly what should not be happening. I also noticed that the computer does not cut the alternator at WOT. I have yet to see it cut off. I am going to do some more research.

I think I am just going to get rid off the computer control of the alternator because of all the spikes which lead to blower speed and light output as well as idle fluctutions and low speed driveability issues.

I also noticed the the computer idles up only when the compressor engages, so the idle is more unstable than it would be due to compressor cycling at low speeds than if the computer just held the idle at 850 anytime the A/C switch was on. So I figured I would just add a load to the ELD circuit anytime the A/C switch is on to hold the idle at 850 and smooth this out. This is not as easy as I thought. I am in the process of making this happen and will post my results. So then I thought I might just have the idle at 850 all the time by making the ELD think there was always a greater load then there is. Since the ELD also figures into the alternator cut equation, I needed to investigate this. I did run a switch to the ELD and when the idle is at 850 constant, driving in traffic with the A/C on is so much smoother.

My car drops all the way to base idle and then catches. I could raise the base idle slightly, but when I do this my intake resonates as the IAC is not in a duty cycle that it likes. I would have to add some sort of restriction in order to raise the base idle and still have the IAC at a comfortable, non-resonating duty cycle. This would require some machine work. I may do this later. I started playing with all of this because of the lack of driveability and A/C cooling performance in low speed traffic in particular with the A/C on and the drop to base idle speed.

Now if Honda would only use the fuel cut circuit over a certain speed like GM instead of just over a certain rpm with closed throttle. This makes creeping in traffic a ***** because the fuel cut circuit cuts in and out when you are crawling. I think this one will be hard to get around.

I love tweaking!
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

National Motorists Association
Changes To This Post:
» Changed Topic Subject by kelly at 5/19/2007 10:13:33 PM
» Changed Topic Subject by kelly at 5/19/2007 10:04:26 PM
» Changed Topic Subject by kelly at 5/19/2007 3:39:16 PM
» Changed Topic Subject by kelly at 5/19/2007 3:32:53 PM
» Changed Topic Subject by kelly at 11/8/2004 9:19:03 PM
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Message posted by MasterKwan on Aug/18/04 at 9:17pm - IP Logged
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What ECU are you using? What's the part # and year?
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Is it really bothering you that much? I guess driving around with my AEM EMS for too long made me forget there was such a thing.
Finding and correcting the root cause of a failure is the difference between a parts changer and a technician.
FS: TechEdge WOB2 Controller w/Sensor & New Toda Cam Gears
FS: Rota's with BFG Drag Radials and HX wheels
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For the longest time I wondered why if I was cruising at night and hit the rear defogger or the windows or the wipers, the lights would dim majorly. Now I know. Even using the turn signal will cut the alternator for a second.

Yes, all of this bothers me. I considered the AEM, but would have to change stuff out to get smogged and the AEM does not have the factory VTEC window and costs some bucks that I do not have. I also have faith in the factory reliability. I am still considering the AEM and have been playing with the software for it, but in many ways is harder to get the factory system right. I like the challenge.

I have the untouched, stock '99 P72. I will post the exact part number later if you think it matters.
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99 P72 is enough. Was just curious how much different my 2000 P73 would be. That close in years, they're probably about the same.
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Quote: Originally posted by kelly on Aug/18/04... the AEM does not have the factory VTEC window and costs some bucks that I do not have. I also have faith in the factory reliability. I am still considering the AEM and have been playing with the software for it, but in many ways is harder to get the factory system right. I like the challenge.



What do you mean it does not have the VTEC window? Which EMS version are you trying out?

EMS is a ***** to use. But knowing you, you may end liking it because it has so much different functions to play width. Just playing with idle controls was a challenge (in a sense that I keep wanting to mess with it more).

Not for the faint of heart and not really good for OBD2 cars unless you live in a non-restricted smog area.
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sak,

Version 3.18. As far as I remember, there is not a factory type load window. The factory has lower and upper VTEC limits and then switches in between those limits based on load. Meaning 4400 at full load and 5000 no matter what load (GS-R) and in between based on load. I didn't see that the AEM did this. I also did not see two fuel/timing maps in the AEM which I believe would be necessary for this. The AEM just has one overall map and the VTEC switch point is not as elaborate.

As far as I could tell, the AEM has a rolling idle and then the base non-rolling idle. It does not have a separate target idle for A/C, only a percent kick up to maintain the target idle. I could be wrong here and the percent is not just to make the transition smoothly, but can actually be set to raise the idle.

I just started playing with the software.




MasterKwan,

I am not sure that my alternator control circuit is working properly. I had some strange problems with the alternator cutting out before, and when I tested recently, the alternator is never turned off even when I believe the conditions are right. I am continuing my testing; it may be that I have not tested enough.

If you are cruising at night and hit the rear defogger or try to close a window that is already closed, do your lights get really dim for like half a second? This is very obvious on my car. They dim like I am trying to start the car, but only very briefly. I do now know that this is because the alternator was being shut off, as without alternator control, it does not happen. I set my meter to beep when the alternator is shut off and it was doing it practically any time there was a load: wipers, turn signals, reverse lights, etc. This was all before any of my tweaks. I am not sure, I think that my car always did this because it really sticks out in my mind. I don't remember my '89 CRX Si that had the same circuit doing this.

The ECU has an 8/80 warranty, but I need to determine if the circuit is faulty or just poorly designed. The manual does not explain this circuit very well or even have a testing procedure (some of the factory info is wrong - the Helms says that the ALTC signal varies from battery voltage to 0 when it varies from 8.25 to 0). I know that the 8.25V is correct, as I found some other information that verified this and this is how mine reads. I probably will have have to show the tech exactly what is wrong and even then might have problems getting a new ECU if mine is faulty. AFAIK, only the US cars have the alternator control, so it must not be that Honda thinks it is all that beneficial.

I have found two potential ways to solve the A/C idle problem. One might not be bulletproof, the other is, but is more complicated. I am researching to see if the easy one is bulletproof. The ITR A/C base idle is 1050 although it still cycles with the compressor. This is probably what all of them should idle at with the A/C on. At 1050 mine works much better than at 850. I will be happy when I get mine to not cycle at 850 and figure out the alternator circuit.
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Message posted by FlatRate on Aug/20/04 at 3:39pm - IP Logged
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Are you sure its version 3.18??? They are currently only at 1.11 when I last checked today.
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Message posted by kelly on Aug/21/04 at 5:26pm - IP Logged
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Software I have is 3.18. Firmware is 1.11.

I only have the software to play with.
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Message posted by kelly on Aug/21/04 at 5:44pm - IP Logged 

*With the headlights on, the ECU never cuts the alternator*.

quote>


----------



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

bird333 said:


> It would seem according to this thread ELD,Alternator & Fuel Cut,A/C,Idle Tweaks - Team Integra
> 
> Simply cutting ALTC wire would keep the alternator from going into low output mode.


It may also throw a CEL code too! Some Hondas go into limp mode when that check engine light comes on.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> It may also throw a CEL code too! Some Hondas go into limp mode when that check engine light comes on.


It's probably safe to say that All Tegs out there, or at least the vast majority of those owned by anyone under 30 years old is throwing a CEL.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

chad said:


> It's probably safe to say that All Tegs out there, or at least the vast majority of those owned by anyone under 30 years old is throwing a CEL.


On another note, I was told by a local mechanic that you could get creative with the ELD wiring and use either a resistor or a pot to trick the ECU into seeing a load when you needed more output voltage. I never inquired any more into it because he said the best way was to get a reprogrammed ECU and just do away with the ELD all together.


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

This all good info. 

I think my wrangler 170a alt isn't going to work for my j32a. If your interested pm me.


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## bird333 (May 28, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> Good article bird333 ^^^
> 
> wonder if kelly knows what he is talking about ?


I think he knows what he is talking about. I have seen some of his postings over on the Neptune forum. He is pretty thorough in testing.


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## bird333 (May 28, 2008)

06BLMUSTANGGT said:


> It may also throw a CEL code too! Some Hondas go into limp mode when that check engine light comes on.


He isn't throwing a CEL and neither are the other people in the thread that did it. There is no tinkering with the ELD, just disconnecting the ALTC line just makes the alternator behave like a normal alternator without the 'low output' mode.


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## koneco (Jun 16, 2009)

Austin said:


> caps dont do shiznit, especially a 1 farad..read an enjoy
> 
> After studying a little history on large 1 Farad capacitors in car audio, you'd be amazed that they even sell at all. How useful are they? What do they really do? Will a Cap 'improve' my sound quality? Will it Prevent my lights from dimming? Will it audibly affect my audio system in any way?
> 
> ...


Even if you copied that, the post is still full of win.


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

koneco said:


> Even if you copied that, the post is still full of win.


ya i did copy that. haha im not taking any credit for it.


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## EVcelica (Dec 30, 2008)

I have read in an optima manual that the red tops are NOT meant for a vehicle with a high current audio system and using them with a sound system would void the batteries warranty.


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## irishboym4 (Jan 8, 2009)

i agree with you completely. i dont bother with caps on my car except for a small 15000uf cap that is bolted to the alternator to reduce alternator whine. Capacitors have thier use but if i was to bother to install one in my car i wouldnt put a massive 1.5 farad thing that runs at 12v i would take apart the amp and wire them into the power supply after the SMPS so that the amp has the power instantly and putting them inside the amp will benefit the sound quality by allowing the amp to produce loud passages and peaks much more effectively. i have built a few home amplifiers and i have put HUGE power supply caps and they all make the amp have a much smoother sound that makes everythin sound better and also makes the highs more laid back. while most ppl will argue that home and car amps are completely different. the reality is that the only difference between high power car amps and home amps is the power supply that is used.

anyways thanks man good stuff your writin here


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## JJDH (Mar 8, 2009)

any results


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

bikinpunk said:


> Right. I did some digging, and couldn’t find the exact post, but I did find someone quoting where a guy had said he put in an HO alt, and still reads 12v because the ELD is in the path and limits voltage. Like you said, if you want it to kick up you have to give the alternator a kick in the jeans (headlights, rpm rev, etc).
> 
> Still, I don’t see how this answers his question if he had no issues before the big 3. I think we’re just getting side tracked.


Oh hi, that was me. DAMN ELD.


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## billg1230 (Jul 17, 2009)

Hey Quisler! Totally off topic.. I am VERY familiar with Boonville... I stay in Woodgate for snowmobiling... small world!


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

JJDH said:


> just add another battery......wtf





JJDH said:


> the whole idea is that the system runs off of the second battery. u should know that..as far as alt charging both, the alt doesnt know the difference,.isolate the second, that way if ur radio isnt on the second battery isnt being used, or charged. forget the cap here there or anywhere. ii went with a kinetic 1800hc, no more dim. i have a 600hc on reserve





JJDH said:


> add another battery dedicated for ur larger amp of the system, add a pac 200 isolator relay(no voltage drop) prollem solved. i just got done doing the install in my suv. the results are excelent, no dimming, full power at amp, sounds excellent... the amp now soley runs off that battery alone. im no expert, but real worlde testing doesnt take a scholar to see result..........**** a cap, get another battery.period


The only way that second battery is NOT being charged by the alternator is if it's COMPLETELY separated. With the PAC isolator it's not. It's designed to let one dead battery not drain the other but the alternator is still going to charge both batteries. 



EVcelica said:


> I have read in an optima manual /snip/


No you didn't.


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## remeolb (Nov 6, 2009)

This has been very helpful. Thanks everyone.


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

Has anyone here attempted the ALTC wire disconnection?


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## zpaguy (Jan 17, 2010)

OSN said:


> Has anyone here attempted the ALTC wire disconnection?


Anybody?


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I'm not going to disconnect any wiring and leave the alt stuck in H.O. mode. I'm not going to swap an ECU. 

I'm going to solve this, probably by snagging the signal to either the ECU or the Alt, and design a circuit that incorporates both the battery/system load and the ignition load into the signal for the alt. I may or may not address the delay issue in the first design - but i see that as a benefit for version 2.0. Before the ECU would be easier, and in some cars it would be enough. 

I'll keep you all posted on my final design. I want it for my own Honda and i'm gonna do it anyway.

This thread provided some decent references for more information. Thanks for the Tech Tip.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

you've kinda missed out on the last months eh?


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

keep_hope_alive said:


> I'm not going to disconnect any wiring and leave the alt stuck in H.O. mode. I'm not going to swap an ECU.
> 
> I'm going to solve this, probably by snagging the signal to either the ECU or the Alt, and design a circuit that incorporates both the battery/system load and the ignition load into the signal for the alt. I may or may not address the delay issue in the first design - but i see that as a benefit for version 2.0. Before the ECU would be easier, and in some cars it would be enough.
> 
> ...


I just took the headlights off my car


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## huricaine (Sep 1, 2009)

Hey OP, i will sell you my scell-600 capacitor-cell, which IS worth helping. It depends on your alternator though.....and the wattage of the amp u use....say u have a 120amp alternator and a 850W amp....or maybe 1000W....Then this capcell will keep ur lights from dimming...7Amps worth of battery power from it, which is enough for ur lights i bet...or close atleast!


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## lostdaytomorrow (Jan 26, 2007)

keep_hope_alive said:


> I'm not going to disconnect any wiring and leave the alt stuck in H.O. mode. I'm not going to swap an ECU.
> 
> I'm going to solve this, probably by snagging the signal to either the ECU or the Alt, and design a circuit that incorporates both the battery/system load and the ignition load into the signal for the alt. I may or may not address the delay issue in the first design - but i see that as a benefit for version 2.0. Before the ECU would be easier, and in some cars it would be enough.
> 
> ...


Keep us updated please...


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

chad said:


> you've kinda missed out on the last months eh?


maybe. I didn't know this was even a problem until a few weeks ago. I found this thread via google search, of all places.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I developed a solution that doesn't involve replacing the ECU or just cutting wires and leaving them disconnected. It is automatic with the head unit, and has a manual override switch. it's the next best thing to an automatic circuit that senses current for a sound system or lighting. 

The detailed thread with installation pics, wiring diagrams, etc. is located here:

http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1806632&page=0&fpart=1

Enjoy.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

keep_hope_alive said:


> maybe. I didn't know this was even a problem until a few weeks ago. I found this thread via google search, of all places.


If you are a commuter then it's a non issue as long as you don't rock out in traffic. I posted in the other thread last night of the stipulations that have to take place to get the car into low power. Honestly mine is so rarely in low power during a very large percentage of it's use that I just don't worry about it anymore.

But then again I don't run a whole hell of a lot of power..


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

chad said:


> If you are a commuter then it's a non issue as long as you don't rock out in traffic. I posted in the other thread last night of the stipulations that have to take place to get the car into low power. Honestly mine is so rarely in low power during a very large percentage of it's use that I just don't worry about it anymore.
> 
> But then again I don't run a whole hell of a lot of power..



Chad, mine goes into the low power mode every time I drive without A/C - usually within 1 minute of slow, 30mph city streets (no traffic). My work commute is 1.3 miles without stop lights (but four stop signs on non-busy streets). I also go into conservation mode on any trip in town. 

During my testing, I did a lot of measurements, I kept track of both the battery voltage and the ELD sense voltage. I familiarized myself with the ELD and PCM behavior of my car, and realized I needed a work around that was safe, effective, and somewhat automatic with manual override. That's what I came up with.

I don't have a lot of power either, I have a 100A fuse on the 1/0 at the battery, with total RMS ratings of 400W for speakers and 360W RMS for the sub. I enjoy a sound stage more than I further damage my hearing.  But I noticed that my system voltage would drop to 11.9 VDC while at stop lights, system on, alt output low, lights off, A/C off. Without an ignition load, the alt conserves as much as possible. My xtant amps just keep pulling current as voltage drops, causing voltage to drop more. As you know, that's one downside to xtant's regulated power supplies. 

For me, addressing this was a necessity.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Don't get me wrong, it's damn cool. 

My commute is 25 miles each way, largely interstate. It's rarely in conservation mode.


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

keep_hope_alive said:


> I developed a solution that doesn't involve replacing the ECU or just cutting wires and leaving them disconnected. It is automatic with the head unit, and has a manual override switch. it's the next best thing to an automatic circuit that senses current for a sound system or lighting.
> 
> The detailed thread with installation pics, wiring diagrams, etc. is located here:
> 
> ...


thanx,man!


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

Chad, I'm glad you like it. I do value your opinion. 

Reading your other posts, you and I were thinking the same thing, just at different times. 

I do have a few ideas on getting it to sense the other wires. I'm thinking about just having a separate circuit that grounds the relay coil when the audio system load is 20-40A, maybe depending if the A/C system is on (possibly monitoring the ELD sense wire also.) 

I have an updated diagram that is a bit more clear. I'll put it up on the other thread.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

keep_hope_alive said:


> I do have a few ideas on getting it to sense the other wires. I'm thinking about just having a separate circuit that grounds the relay coil when the audio system load is 20-40A, maybe depending if the A/C system is on (possibly monitoring the ELD sense wire also.)
> 
> I have an updated diagram that is a bit more clear. I'll put it up on the other thread.


yeah that's killer there, I'd even go down to 15 amp and have it hold up for a while so it's not constantly clicking that relay.

Thing is that sometimes (most of the time) I just don't listen that loud so a remote trigger really would not do much for me.. This (current sense) could also be VERY beneficial to those who have ridglines/pilots(extra lighting)/HAM radio, anything tied to that positive post, not just audio.

In other words if you make it plug-n-play it could be lucrative in a market reaching outside car audio.


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## keep_hope_alive (Jan 4, 2009)

I'll come up with something. So far I only have a few hours invested in the idea/planning stage. When I can really focus on it, i'll have something small, inexpensive, and near fool proof. I think it would also require a short wire harness adapter that plugs in-line with the ELD so people aren't cutting any wires.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

bingo


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