# 8" vs 6" midrange



## kevincolby650 (May 12, 2013)

I was looking into a 3 way setup but I am also thinking of just keeping things simple. I would assume a 8" mid would handle lower freq better then a 6". what I am worried about is how well an 8" would do in the higher freq's. I am considering either the Morel Elate or Illusions Audio components. I do like decent midbass so any help would be great.

thanks


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

beaming will occur pretty low with 8 inch mids (at about 1700hz from what i remember. dont quote me). if i were going 2 way i would choose 6 inch over the 8


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## kevincolby650 (May 12, 2013)

what do you mean by Beaming?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Above a certain point (it depends on speakers size) the sound is no longer radiating from the entire cone. It narrows more and more as frequency rises, like a beam.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

For a 2-way you might be stuck with a 6.5". The 8" is doable if you have a tweeter that will play low enough. Size doesn't determine how high a frequency a speaker will play, I've run my 9" midbass in the doors to 4khz just for the heck of it and the play it fine. My 15s play 4khz as well. 

The problem is when they're off axis (not pointed at you) the dispersion narrows as the frequency rises. I can still hear a 4khz tone from my 9s, even the drivers side which is about 60 degrees off axis but its way down in spl from the lower frequencies. You can always run your 8" up higher than its beaming point (which is solely determined by diameter) and it might work. Make sure you choose an 8" that will play high enough too. 

What subs do you plan on using? Some subs will play up higher and sound good taking some of the demands off of the midbass, some won't. Me personally, I can never go back to a 6.5". The 9s added realism to the music and up front bass is easy. It's also nice that the cone only has to move half as much for the same output so all else being equal it will probably have less distortion as its equivalent 6.5". 

What tweeter are you going to use? One that can play down to 2khz comfortably would be good and might work just fine with an 8" midbass. 

So you can do a traditional 2-way with a 6.5 and tweeter. You can try an 8" and see if there's a hole I the response between the tweeter and midbass. You can try and aim the 8" closer to on axis, namely the drivers side. You can go 3-way with a mid to play those frequencies between the midbass and tweeter.


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

8 inch speaker could work out well in 2-way system where you use a wide-band mid or a small coaxial speaker instead of a tweeter. In this setup, the mid would play down to like 200-300Hz region. Another possibility is to use a larger home audio tweeter. Some can take a 1600-1700Hz high pass filter just fine, but you end up splitting critical vocal mid-range between two speakers that are far apart from each other, so better careful tuning may be necessary, like time correction.


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## kevincolby650 (May 12, 2013)

thanks for the reply guys.

I was thinking of going with the Illusion Audio C6(6 1/2") or the C8(8") components. I was going to run it passive for awhile first to see how it sounds and then possible go active. I am also Considering the Morel Elate 8" components. 

Ill using a Mosconi AS100.4 bridged in passive and 100x4 active later if decided.

Sub I have a Digital Design 9515 15" powered by a USA amp US-2000.

I have everything in my Ford F250 with rear bench removed. I am looking to upgrade my speakers soon.

Thanks guys.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

The illusion tweeter is crossed at [email protected] with the included passive so it the beaming wouldn't be terrible, but it will be there.


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## kevincolby650 (May 12, 2013)

Do you think the Morel Elate 902 8" Mids would have beaming?

How would it compare to the Illusions C8?

Thanks,


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

kevincolby650 said:


> Do you think the Morel Elate 902 8" Mids would have beaming?
> 
> How would it compare to the Illusions C8?
> 
> Thanks,


both are 8 inches......


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## kevincolby650 (May 12, 2013)

I ment from brand to brand? Is one more musical then the other, is one more punchy then the other?


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

As far as beaming is concerned, its purely a function of the diameter, brand and anything else does not matter as to what frequency its going I beam at.


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## lbp775 (Jul 7, 2011)

Not sure how it compares to the speakers you mentioned but how about meeting in the middle and go with Dyn MW172?


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

Most important I think is how low your tweets can play. I use fullrange that will play down to 300hz and am able to use 8 or 9 with no issues. I'm a huge fan of deep midbass up front as long as you have a processor for time alignment. Without that your lower frequencies will phase out. 
I also used scanspeak tweets that played down to 1600hz which isn't too bad either.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I've also talked to people that ran a full range 3" or coax 4" and 8s. With some EQ some of the 3" can do it pretty well. Some also ran some tiny tweets really high with them. Be careful with comp sets a 2 way with an 8 is very difficult because of beaming, you need a tweet/upper mid that can go a long way to make it work right. I have a set of 4" comps I want to use with 10s in front but no time to do an in depth install it will take.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

With an 8", you really need a small midrange to bridge the gap between it and the tweeter. This is especially true in a car where the speaker will not be on axis and where the reflected sound is loud because the reflective surfaces are so close. Even a 6" benefits significantly from the addition of a midrange. 

A small bookshelf 2-way 8" speaker in your living room works OK (not great), but your living room is not your car.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

There's a set of JL C5 4" midranges for sale on here right now. Good price and a great sounding midrange.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

The dayton dome mid always looked cool to me, but not sure how to integrate it. I don't like typical 3 way its too complex for the little I get (and for cars I may not keep long). I rather a midbass and 2 way(?), a mid that carries all the vocal with a high tweet and low MB. A wide range mid always seems to sound better to me, maybe a point source thing or I never heard a super good 3 way.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

I don't know about the new one, but the old ID tweeter had an Fs around 800-900.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Tweeters should be crossed about an octave too an octave and a half higher than their resonance, depending on the Qts of the tweeter. To make this work WELL with a 6", you need a tweeter with an Fs of 500-800Hz or so. 

I agree that a passive network for a 3-way is more complex. Do a passive between mid and tweeter and an active for the midbass.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Add a waveguide to the tweeter...that would help.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> With an 8", you really need a small midrange to bridge the gap between it and the tweeter. This is especially true in a car where the speaker will not be on axis and where the reflected sound is loud because the reflective surfaces are so close. Even a 6" benefits significantly from the addition of a midrange.
> 
> *A small bookshelf 2-way 8" speaker in your living room works OK (not great)*, but your living room is not your car.


There are a handful of speakers with this exact spec that sound far more than just OK in a living room....in fact I can think of a few right now that are excellent (Audio Note AN-E, SAP Duet). The Audio Note uses a low crossover point (2.5 khz) while the SAP uses a very high crossover point (10 khz). Both do very well for imaging, coherence and tonality. 

But why waste all this energy arguing over speakers with 8" woofers, when there are numerous great ones with 15" woofers that do the job just as well if not better. 

Agree that a 2 way in a car with an 8" is very difficult.

In home audio you have a lot more freedom with things, and generally speaking a 2 way setup is more coherent than a 3 way setup. A 2 way with a supertweeter (e.g. woofer, HLCD, supertweeter @10+ khz) could be either a 2 way or 3 way depending on your definition...

In cars, 3 way has a lot more value than in homes to make up for the environment and the fact that there are not a lot of great tweeters in car audio that can sound good crossed over lower than 4-5 khz. A very good dome mid (or even a cone) that can play flat to 5/6/7+ khz will do wonders for the majority of tweeters out there.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Tweeters should be crossed about an octave too an octave and a half higher than their resonance, depending on the Qts of the tweeter. To make this work WELL with a 6", you need a tweeter with an Fs of 500-800Hz or so.
> 
> I agree that a passive network for a 3-way is more complex. Do a passive between mid and tweeter and an active for the midbass.


I've heard this many times but is it due to distortion or for the tweeter's protection. I've run my Esotar 110 tweeters at 1,600hz/12db as have others with no problems. I believe FS is around 1,000hz. Just wondering.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

BuickGN said:


> I've heard this many times but is it due to distortion or for the tweeter's protection. I've run my Esotar 110 tweeters at 1,600hz/12db as have others with no problems. I believe FS is around 1,000hz. Just wondering.


There are a lot of rules of thumb in audio that to me seem like a nice protective disclaimer, but definitely not the end all, be all of crossover point selection. Manufacturers need to be conservative because there are a lot of irresponsible listeners out there.

Personally wouldn't want to have tweeters crossed that low for the sound aspect, even if it could do the job.


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## FG79 (Jun 30, 2008)

BuickGN said:


> You can go 3-way with a mid to play those frequencies between the midbass and tweeter.


I don't know the OP's car, but sometimes you can get creative depending on speaker locations/sizes. There's the possibility of using a coax (6.5" woofer/tweeter) with a small mid, or woofer (6.5" woofer) with coax (3-4" woofer with tweeter). 

That's one way of getting a 3 way with 2 way locations, no cutting if you're lucky enough to have such setup from the factory.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

FG79 said:


> There are a lot of rules of thumb in audio that to me seem like a nice protective disclaimer, but definitely not the end all, be all of crossover point selection. Manufacturers need to be conservative because there are a lot of irresponsible listeners out there.
> 
> Personally wouldn't want to have tweeters crossed that low for the sound aspect, even if it could do the job.


I don't regularly do it. I just wanted to see how the system would sound as a 2-way with just the 9s in the doors and the tweeters, no subs or mids. It was a little scary even though I have talked to others who have done it. I turned the volume up slooooowly.


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## ecobass (Oct 15, 2012)

^^ Would you suggest to pair a 3"-3.5 wide band driver or a tweeter like:Dayton Audio RS28F-4 1-1/8" Silk Dome Tweeter 275-140 that gets down low , to an 8" driver in a 2-way active?


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

I'd try one of the fostex fullranges. That new 89 looks very nice. I'm sure it's very close to my audible psychics nz3 for was less money.


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