# Why can’t we have nice things anymore?



## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

Back in 2000 there wasn’t a dash with enough space to stack everything offered. You could get 2 single din’s in a double. That was it. Today the dash could stack a studio rack, but instead it’s all just wasted space. To top it off HU manufacturers have basically dumped single din R&D. Big mistake in my honest opinion.

What they offer you today:










All I want to see in my car:









Guess I’m just old


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> Back in 2000 there wasn’t a dash with enough space to stack everything offered. You could get 2 single din’s in a double. That was it. Today the dash could stack a studio rack, but instead it’s all just wasted space. To top it off HU manufacturers have basically dumped single din R&D. Big mistake in my honest opinion.
> 
> What they offer you today:
> 
> ...


I think you may be an Era behind. That dash Is from like 2008. Dashes look like this now.











That's the closes pic a have that shows the whole dash.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Head unit market died with oem integration. In think in the next few years even the big floating screens out now will be gone. The oems will make it harder and harder and eventually everything will be tapped in beyond what ever factory screen is there. In my car, the screen you see is just an lcd, it has a fiber optic cable that runs to the brain under the seat. Can’t do a din unit at all.


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## Sounds_Insane (8 mo ago)

Why would OEMs want to help the aftermarket audio scene, they would rather sell you the $2,500 "upgraded" audio package. Besides, car audio doesn't have the following it used to.


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## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

I just don't see the need for aftermarket HU if you have a moden car with a clean linear digital signal off MOST

However cars date quick, so aftermarket unit that brings carplay etc is welcome


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## Pigeon (3 mo ago)

MobilePioneer said:


> Guess I’m just old


Yep


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> I think you may be an Era behind. That dash Is from like 2008. Dashes look like this now.
> 
> View attachment 353399
> 
> ...


it looks nearly identical to the dash I posted. One big waterfall of plastic. 🤷🏻‍♂️ A ton of wasted space that has a tiny little electronic box behind a huge face of plastic. Or a few wires and no box at all.


Jroo said:


> Head unit market died with oem integration. In think in the next few years even the big floating screens out now will be gone. The oems will make it harder and harder and eventually everything will be tapped in beyond what ever factory screen is there. In my car, the screen you see is just an lcd, it has a fiber optic cable that runs to the brain under the seat. Can’t do a din unit at all.


 Sounds like when it dies you are fkd


Sounds_Insane said:


> Why would OEMs want to help the aftermarket audio scene, they would rather sell you the $2,500 "upgraded" audio package. Besides, car audio doesn't have the following it used to.


 I’d never pay some crappy manufacturer 2500$ for a radio. A fool and his money right? But that ain’t me. I’ll happily spend 2500$ on quality stuff. But supplied, installed, and warrantied by Ford? Lol no


Muu said:


> I just don't see the need for aftermarket HU if you have a moden car with a clean linear digital signal off MOST
> 
> However cars date quick, so aftermarket unit that brings carplay etc is welcome


 you will see the need when one of your 20 integrated components dies and now you are looking at spending big money to fix the outdated radio you now see as garbage. Maybe you will want an upgrade?

Planned obsolescence is what we are looking at here. Something breaks and it’s just another reason for you to ditch your old car and buy a fancy new one. That is by design. 🧐


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> it looks nearly identical to the dash I posted. One big waterfall of plastic. 🤷🏻‍♂️ A ton of wasted space that has a tiny little electronic box behind a huge face of plastic. Or a few wires and no box at all.
> Sounds like when it dies you are fkd
> I’d never pay some crappy manufacturer 2500$ for a radio. A fool and his money right? But that ain’t me. I’ll happily spend 2500$ on quality stuff. But supplied, installed, and warrantied by Ford? Lol no
> you will see the need when one of your 20 integrated components dies and now you are looking at spending big money to fix the outdated radio you now see as garbage. Maybe you will want an upgrade?
> ...


Well it depends... I also like older units, amps etc. However I have never seen dash where Alpine units arround 2000 and older would fit and even current ones do not fit. My daily is made in 07 and I can not find any 1DIN what just looks good.
Also today I have no need to have 1DIN DSP, EQ let alone animated displays it is just circus sh.... what belongs to history. Also it is bad to do not have BT for hadsfree so very old 1DINs are already out and who would like to carry 30 CDs today....
New OEM looks good as they fit into car but they are not good for car audio, upgrades, tunes. So lets go Fiio


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

Any pioneer with a DIN plug in the back can run stacks of components daisy chained together. Posted above is a DEH-P7600mp DIN to a CD-P5000 DIN to a RCA/3.5mm that has a hardwired Bluetooth to 3.5mm connected. I’m hands free in 2003 and it cost me $23.

My wife’s 2016 Sienna has a double din. It could easily be replaced with 2 single din’s with infinitely better sound and look then factory.

I think they stopped making them because audiophiles didn’t buy them, and so now most people think they were useless.

Most people don’t know what a Burr Brown chip is. Most people don’t own them. So most people today would say they are outdated old tech and obsolete. They would be wrong.

TSMC really ruined the electronics world. Everything today has dozens of crappy chips in them but all they needed was a couple quality ones.

The Blaupunkt cassette radio and amp from my 83 Porsche still works perfectly. Will my wife’s touchscreen sienna radio still work in 2056? Id bet money it won’t. Her 2013 RAV4’s touchscreen stopped responding in the upper right corner just before we sold it. And that was a Limited version with an upgraded more expensive sound system and touchscreen.


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## Hintzyboy (Mar 31, 2007)

> it looks nearly identical to the dash I posted. One big waterfall of plastic. 🤷🏻‍♂️ A ton of wasted space that has a tiny little electronic box behind a huge face of plastic. Or a few wires and no box at all.


They look nothing alike. The newer one is significantly shorter, and the space below the climate controls is open storage. 



> Sounds like when it dies you are fkd


Not really. OEM replacement parts are pretty easy to come by. They're not cheap, but they aren't much worse than a nice aftermarket deck with a larger screen. 



> I’d never pay some crappy manufacturer 2500$ for a radio. A fool and his money right? But that ain’t me. I’ll happily spend 2500$ on quality stuff. But supplied, installed, and warrantied by Ford? Lol no


Unfortunately, you don't always have much of a choice. Your options are often limited to what's on the lot. In this market, you might not even have that. A lot of cars are spoken for before they even get built, and few dealers are taking custom orders. They only get so much inventory allocated each month, and they don't want to fill an order slot with a combination that they might have trouble moving if the buyer backs out. 

Even if you find one that will order what you want, manufacturers have long since moved on from individual options. You want heated seats? Well that's part of the $3400 Technology package that includes an "upgraded" stereo, ****ty navigation, and a sunroof. 



> you will see the need when one of your 20 integrated components dies and now you are looking at spending big money to fix the outdated radio you now see as garbage. Maybe you will want an upgrade?


People have been saying this kind of thing for decades, ever since computers made their way into engine bays. Sure, repairs are often more expensive than they used to be. But they are also needed less often than they used to be. It wasn't that long ago that a car making it to 100k miles was considered a paragon of reliability. These days, it's not at all uncommon for a car to hit double that. My mom's old Honda pilot just bit the dust this year at 300k (and probably would have run longer if it hadn't been handed down to my niece who doesn't know how to take care of anything). 

In my 20 years of driving, I don't think I've ever had a failure in an electrical component other than an O2 sensor in a '97 S10 and a transmission sensor in a '92 Corsica. There's just not a lot to go wrong in modern interiors: no moving parts now that CD players and tape players have gone the way of the Dodo. They don't see the harsh conditions that underhood electronics have to withstand. And they tend to use older, tried and true components (a big part of the reason for the inventory issues is that carmakers canceled their semiconductor orders during the pandemic, and semiconductor manufacturers used that as an excuse to shut down specialized production lines that were dedicated to older products). 



> Planned obsolescence is what we are looking at here. Something breaks and it’s just another reason for you to ditch your old car and buy a fancy new one. That is by design. 🧐


The evidence doesn't really bear that out. The age of the average car on American roads hit an all-time high of 12.1 years in 2021. The technology used in modern car radios hasn't really changed much over the last 10 years or so, beyond adding things like android auto and carplay. Even aftermarket units, which are largely based on some fork of android, have largely plateaued. The operating system itself hasn't seen major updates in years (phones have become more powerful, with better cameras and ai assistants, but most of these changes aren't really relevant to an automotive application).


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

I agree no one wants to carry a stack of CDs. But Bluetooth SQ? That is a joke.
Give me physical media for SQ please. At the least a direct wire playing FLAC, but reaching for wireless SQ is so counter productive. To imply you have wireless SQ is enough for me to imply we don’t hear music the same.

I’ve been around. Owned dozens of cars. I’ve seen enough to know I don’t want anything new. It’s all made to fail. And when it fails you are stuck repairing massively overpriced outdated junk because you have no option to upgrade…that is until the parts at the dealer run out. So you just are going to have to replace the whole thing.

that is how most people function. Nah it’s old why repair it. Just get a new one.

I drive a motor swapped 97 escort daily. No one has ever repaired my cars. The one new car I ever bought was a 2012 focus for my wife that had 4 transmissions before we lemon law’d it for a Toyota.

they still use that DCT transmission.

My 4K curved Samsung smart TV has been replaced 2 times by Samsung.

Technology peaked in 2010. Period.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

But you know what’s older then I am and still functions as it did when it was built?

every single thing in this photo


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> Any pioneer with a DIN plug in the back can run stacks of components daisy chained together. Posted above is a DEH-P7600mp DIN to a CD-P5000 DIN to a RCA/3.5mm that has a hardwired Bluetooth to 3.5mm connected. I’m hands free in 2003 and it cost me $23.
> 
> My wife’s 2016 Sienna has a double din. It could easily be replaced with 2 single din’s with infinitely better sound and look then factory.
> 
> ...


I like Helix director here over two 1DIN solution.
I believe that Helix and Fiio are using Burr Brown so many people do own them.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

MobilePioneer said:


> I’d never pay some crappy manufacturer 2500$ for a radio. A fool and his money right? But that ain’t me. I’ll happily spend 2500$ on quality stuff. But supplied, installed, and warrantied by Ford? Lol no
> you will see the need when one of your 20 integrated components dies and now you are looking at spending big money to fix the outdated radio you now see as garbage. Maybe you will want an upgrade?
> 
> Planned obsolescence is what we are looking at here. Something breaks and it’s just another reason for you to ditch your old car and buy a fancy new one. That is by design. 🧐


most consumers now dont care about aftermarket stereo, nothing like we do. This is a super niche market and people on this forum dont represent what most people on the street would spend money on. Also, once you price out aftermarket install costs on newer cars? If you are doing none of the installation work(most dont/wont), a shop is easily going to charge well above $2500 and it is surprising what they end up with. Sometimes the upgraded factory stereo comes as a package with the model you are buying. Depending on your car, the truth is and many on the forum will validate that $2500 doesnt get you far depending on the car. The OEMs are getting smart to this. They say, the upgraded stereo is this price or you can go up the "XX" model or package of your truck and its part of the package. The days of most not all consumers buying a car and then running down to the audio store just dont happen. We also have to factor in a lot of people with the upgraded factory stuff think it sounds incredible. 

I also believe what someone posted above. In the dsp world we live in, not sure of the value of a head unit anymore. After an installer has tapped into the factory system with a DSP that isnt pure junk and tuned it, not sure a head unit of any type would be a sound improvement. Then you also have to factor in all the bells and whistle crap that the OEMs integrate in. On my wifes car, in theory I could replace the head unit. I then had to add about 4 additional modules to get things like the chimes, back up sensors, bluetooth and XM etc to work. Everything was an additional module just to get back to where I was walking in the shop 

Op, I am with you and loved a great head unit. I still have my pair of Eclipse heads from my old car. I just dont see a scenario unless I built an old car that I would ever use them again.


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

Bur brown belongs in your Amps now a days not in the head units. Head units are just meant for a signal and the goodies that this day n agae has. Streaming music, navigation, etc. EQs in your dash are a thing of the past. There is no way possible an in dash EQ can outperform a DSP for sound quality. There is no old school head unit that can outperform a DAC for sound quality. Technology has advanced by alot. What sound quality was back then is nothing compared to what you can do now.

I'm with you though I wish I could replace my factory head unit, but not with an old single din. I can't replace mine so there was alot of work involved to get things sounding right. But I'd rather have my crappy head unit with all the new tech that use an old single din and old eq.

Every one is entitled to their own opinions, likes and dislikes. But saying there's nothing nice now is completely wrong. You either mold with the future or get stuck in the past. You'll just end up missing out.

I say you try 1 proper active 3way front stage with a decent DSP before you start bashing on it. Or at least have a listen to one.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> I agree no one wants to carry a stack of CDs. But Bluetooth SQ? That is a joke.
> Give me physical media for SQ please. At the least a direct wire playing FLAC, but reaching for wireless SQ is so counter productive. To imply you have wireless SQ is enough for me to imply we don’t hear music the same.
> 
> I’ve been around. Owned dozens of cars. I’ve seen enough to know I don’t want anything new. It’s all made to fail. And when it fails you are stuck repairing massively overpriced outdated junk because you have no option to upgrade…that is until the parts at the dealer run out. So you just are going to have to replace the whole thing.
> ...


I am not talking about BT for SQ. Anyway as BT transfers data and not a signal with today speeds it is completely OK to use for most of car systems. I have never wrote that I am using it for SQ, why are you trying to put words in my mouth?
I do not want to talk about physical media vs digital players as it is never ending story. 
The time has changed, is it for good or bad? For me it is good but I still have many oldschool amps and I love them. Headunits are different story. It is so much easier to use modern ones.


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## Sounds_Insane (8 mo ago)

Jroo said:


> I also believe what someone posted above. In the dsp world we live in, not sure of the value of a head unit anymore. After an installer has tapped into the factory system with a DSP that isnt pure junk and tuned it, not sure a head unit of any type would be a sound improvement. Then you also have to factor in all the bells and whistle crap that the OEMs integrate in. On my wifes car, in theory I could replace the head unit. I then had to add about 4 additional modules to get things like the chimes, back up sensors, bluetooth and XM etc to work. Everything was an additional module just to get back to where I was walking in the shop


I had noise in my system running off the factory head unit, I got tired of it and pulled my system out. The noise is there without the system in it. I drive a Hybrid, and I think there is some weird interference going on with the way the motor-generator is looping. They updated the hybrid system for 2023, if I can find a dealership to actually contact me I'll buy one and see if it's fixed, if not I'm going full standalone (DAP to DSP), and want to see if/how to isolate a battery as well.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

All of what Jroo just said relies on the premise that everyone will constantly buy new cars. What about the used car market? It’s huge. What about high school kids wanting to upgrade the stereo in grandmas old car they were gifted? Surely that hasn’t changed.

I guess kids today stare at their phones with their heads in earbuds and don’t care about the rest…

I for one don’t want a new car. I want back that mint gunmetal 88 535is I sold 15 years ago. 😂

New cars kill car clubs, aftermarket innovation, the audio scene for classics, bank accounts.

I’ve always been that guy that looked at a new 25k Corolla (for myself) and said “damn, imagine the car I could build myself with half that money.”

I can’t imagine a manufacturer ever installing the SQ and SPL system that I would find total satisfaction from. I just don’t have that level of trust.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

kiklop32 said:


> I am not talking about BT for SQ. Anyway as BT transfers data and not a signal with today speeds it is completely OK to use for most of car systems. I have never wrote that I am using it for SQ, why are you trying to put words in my mouth?
> I do not want to talk about physical media vs digital players as it is never ending story.
> The time has changed, is it for good or bad? For me it is good but I still have many oldschool amps and I love them. Headunits are different story. It is so much easier to use modern ones.


I’m not putting words in your mouth sorry I just hear that argument about Bluetooth all the time and it’s so easy to add to any system with AUX in.

In the end I just don’t believe a manufacture will ever have its customers best interest in mind they care about their pocketbook. And to add to that - aftermarket companies only care about satisfying the customer or else they wouldn’t be selling their products in direct competition with the big manufacturer.

I don’t trust many car companies to build quality anymore. I saw this in 2009. The crash caused everything to level down in build quality. We never got back to the pre-09 quality today, and now we are dropping yet again with inflation and chip shortages. The best quality components have either come and gone or are so hard to find the cost is rarely justifiable.


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

Bluetooth is limited to your transmitter (phone) and your Receiver (DAC, DSP) . If you don't match them correctly you won't benefit from the tech. Bluetooth through aux was trash in the past and trash now. No wonder you think it's no good. LDAC is the highest quality you can stream through Bluetooth and it sounds really good. You won't be able to tell the difference between LDAC and The highest quality audio available when you car is cruzing down the street.


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## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

In 2018, my son's 2010 navigation Lexus headunit quit playing music. A refurbished head for it was over $5,000.00 USD.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> All of what Jroo just said relies on the premise that everyone will constantly buy new cars. What about the used car market? It’s huge. What about high school kids wanting to upgrade the stereo in grandmas old car they were gifted? Surely that hasn’t changed.
> 
> I guess kids today stare at their phones with their heads in earbuds and don’t care about the rest…
> 
> ...


The situation has changed drastically. When I was at school age everyone was into cars many friends had audio sytems. 
That is all gone, kinds today cares about phones, shoes and they dont mind driving citroen or fiat....
If I show anyone 3 way setup with 15 inch woofer and DSP what costs more than what their wage is..., well I am crazy form them.
It is sad


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> I’m not putting words in your mouth sorry I just hear that argument about Bluetooth all the time and it’s so easy to add to any system with AUX in.
> 
> In the end I just don’t believe a manufacture will ever have its customers best interest in mind they care about their pocketbook. And to add to that - aftermarket companies only care about satisfying the customer or else they wouldn’t be selling their products in direct competition with the big manufacturer.
> 
> I don’t trust many car companies to build quality anymore. I saw this in 2009. The crash caused everything to level down in build quality. We never got back to the pre-09 quality today, and now we are dropping yet again with inflation and chip shortages. The best quality components have either come and gone or are so hard to find the cost is rarely justifiable.


All good 

Manufacturers want to sell cars for masses, unfortunately quality of audio is not priority for customers today. Hell I have seen so many people driving with headphones / airpods etc. lately....


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

So many replies I appreciate all the discussions! 🤘


kiklop32 said:


> I like Helix director here over two 1DIN solution.
> I believe that Helix and Fiio are using Burr Brown so many people do own them.


Those look like the old school APEXi controllers mounted on your dash.


Jroo said:


> I just dont see a scenario unless I built an old car that I would ever use them again.


 what happened to enthusiasts that were enthusiastic about old cars?


ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> Bur brown belongs in your Amps now a days not in the head units. Head units are just meant for a signal and the goodies that this day n agae has. Streaming music, navigation, etc. EQs in your dash are a thing of the past. There is now way possible an in dash EQ can outperform a DSP for sound quality. There is no old school head unit that can outperform a DAC for sound quality. Technology has advanced by alot. What sound quality was back then is nothing compared to what you can do now.
> 
> I'm with you though I wish I could replace my factory head unit, but not with an old single din. I can't replace mine so there was alot of work involved to get things sounding right. But I'd rather have my crappy head unit with all the new tech that use an old single din and old eq.
> 
> ...


The DEH-P01 was a single din with an external DSP I think that was released in 2001 and I believe one the highest quality, if not the highest, single din’s ever made. 


ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> Bluetooth is limited to your transmitter (phone) and your Receiver (DAC, DSP) . If you don't match them correctly you won't benefit from the tech. Bluetooth through aux was trash in the past and trash now. No wonder you think it's no good. LDAC is the highest quality you can stream through Bluetooth and it sounds really good. You won't be able to tell the difference between LDAC and The highest quality audio available when you car is crazing down the street.


 There is nothing like holding a physical piece of media in your hands. When in the car a non compressed CD out of a great DAC is the start to the best sound in my humble opinion. From there the possibilities are endless. Add on as your ears tell you there is a difference. Some people can’t stand EQs. Some would never buy a spectrum analyzer. Those people would probably also not tune their listening position with a microphone and a noise generator.

there is nothing like physical media…


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

MobilePioneer said:


> what happened to enthusiasts that were enthusiastic about old cars?


They have deep pockets, and can buy things like this for $1,200.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> So many replies I appreciate all the discussions! 🤘Those look like the old school APEXi controllers mounted on your dash.
> what happened to enthusiasts that were enthusiastic about old cars?
> The DEH-P01 was a single din with an external DSP I think that was released in 2001 and I believe one the highest quality, if not the highest, single din’s ever made.
> There is nothing like holding a physical piece of media in your hands. When in the car a non compressed CD out of a great DAC is the start to the best sound in my humble opinion. From there the possibilities are endless. Add on as your ears tell you there is a difference. Some people can’t stand EQs. Some would never buy a spectrum analyzer. Those people would probably also not tune their listening position with a microphone and a noise generator.
> ...


CD is just digital storage what you read with laser. USB or digital player with SD is the same just with no laser. And Bluetooth transfer speeds today are good enough to listen in CD like quality you just have to have modern devices.


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## Sounds_Insane (8 mo ago)

kiklop32 said:


> Manufacturers want to sell cars for masses, unfortunately quality of audio is not priority for customers today.


My wife is completely happy with the factory radio, even though she listens to her music louder than I do most of the time. I can hear her bumpin' down the street (probably more to do with the lack of any sound deadening than factory bass response). I keep asking if she at least wants me to put a small sub in her car, but she says it's fine. But, take her Android Auto away and that would be a different story.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

My wife is also happy with her sienna stereo. Luckily I don’t drive it or it would have been changed. It just goes to show the listener makes the biggest difference.


KillerBox said:


> In 2018, my son's 2010 navigation Lexus headunit quit playing music. A refurbished head for it was over $5,000.00 USD.


This is exactly what I’m talking about


kiklop32 said:


> The situation has changed drastically. When I was at school age everyone was into cars many friends had audio sytems.
> That is all gone, kinds today cares about phones, shoes and they dont mind driving citroen or fiat....
> If I show anyone 3 way setup with 15 inch woofer and DSP what costs more than what their wage is..., well I am crazy form them.
> It is sad


 That is just bad parenting right there lol


chuyler1 said:


> They have deep pockets, and can buy things like this for $1,200.
> View attachment 353455


that looks like a Dual from Walmart in 2012.


kiklop32 said:


> CD is just digital storage what you read with laser. USB or digital player with SD is the same just with no laser. And Bluetooth transfer speeds today are good enough to listen in CD like quality you just have to have modern devices.


But after the music outputs from your device you still need a quality audio converter and paying 1200$ for a Walmart looking stereo is a joke.

The cleanest look ever was a McIntosh. Pioneer knew it, and made their p99rs and p01 a direct copy of the McIntosh home stereo amplifiers.

















*All *that was missing was those VU meters 😜


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

MobilePioneer said:


> All of what Jroo just said relies on the premise that everyone will constantly buy new cars. What about the used car market? It’s huge. What about high school kids wanting to upgrade the stereo in grandmas old car they were gifted? Surely that hasn’t changed.
> 
> I guess kids today stare at their phones with their heads in earbuds and don’t care about the rest…
> 
> ...


The used car market is never going away and never will. I have never purchased a new car, nor has my wife. My son is a highschool kid that received moms 2008 chevy trailblazer. We updated his head unit to a double din pioneer becasue it was super easy. Moms new to her 2014 SUV, head unit not happening. Even if kids are getting cars that are 10 or 15 years old, a lot of those cars you cant swap the head unit easily. My last 3 cars have been volvos and easily could have been a hand down to my son learning to drive. Not one of them I could swap the head unit. My S80 is fiber optic and its an 08 model with 190K on it. My 08 S80 before it you could swap the head unit, but had to do a work around because the pop dash nav and all the chimes went through the factory head unit. Thats on a 17 year old car. 

You also hit kids on the head today. They dont care as much about audio. My son is super active in the car scene as a few of his friends are. They work on their cars but they only care about the performance aftermarket not audio. My son could care less about how audio sounds only that his phone connects and gives him carplay and crap like that.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

Sounds_Insane said:


> My wife is completely happy with the factory radio, even though she listens to her music louder than I do most of the time. I can hear her bumpin' down the street (probably more to do with the lack of any sound deadening than factory bass response). I keep asking if she at least wants me to put a small sub in her car, but she says it's fine. But, take her Android Auto away and that would be a different story.


Same here, our family car has upgraded Seat sound system, it has center and small sub in spare wheel. And it sounds good for her


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## Muu (Jan 22, 2020)

MobilePioneer said:


> you will see the need when one of your 20 integrated components dies and now you are looking at spending big money to fix the outdated radio you now see as garbage. Maybe you will want an upgrade?
> 
> Planned obsolescence is what we are looking at here. Something breaks and it’s just another reason for you to ditch your old car and buy a fancy new one. That is by design. 🧐


Same could be said for the ECU in the car, but I'm not about to run carbs. Nor do I need to relive my youth and have jumping dolphin animations.

If I've got a car with all the infotainment I need neatly packaged in a screen with steering controls and Android Auto that's all good. Pick the audio stream out of cars network, the modern day head unit is a Nav-TV type device plugged up to a DSP.

Nothing on show, nothing to steal, no walking around with a face place in my back pocket.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> My wife is also happy with her sienna stereo. Luckily I don’t drive it or it would have been changed. It just goes to show the listener makes the biggest difference. This is exactly what I’m talking about
> That is just bad parenting right there lol
> that looks like a Dual from Walmart in 2012.
> 
> ...


After my device I have Helix DSP Pro MK2 and soon MK3, I think I am OK about convertor  I am sorry but this oldschool gear can not beat Fiio and Helix DSP combo no matter how good it looks  Sorry


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## eltigre (2 mo ago)

I'll throw this out there in favor of less HU integration though. 

I sure did get sick of all my high dollar, upgraded head units getting stolen. I'm another, was in the scene guy 15-20 years ago. I had a new avalanche truck stolen, recovered less my 23" wheels and a $6k MB Quarts (lol) system. Four head units and two other complete systems, all stolen because they could see my aftermarket HU thorough the window. It didn't matter what city I lived in, where I parked or how next level my alarm was, they could get at it.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

You're safe these days, they just want the catalytic converter. When is the aftermarket gonna make removable cats you can stick in your back pocket? 

Kids today most definitely are more into tuning and turbos than amps and subs. I live on a busy street in a smallish town, not indicative of the whole scene, but for every vehicle that passes by with loud music there are 10 with loud exhausts, 2-3 of those with crackle tunes that drive my dogs bonkers. When we all grew up, the bug was passed to us from older generations, or someone showed up at our minimum wage job with a crutchfield paper catalog and we drooled over the pages until we worked enough shifts to buy something second hand. We drove junky cars with no aftermarket support, why would we invest in them? Instead we put our money in audio upgrades we could rip out when the car broke down.


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## eltigre (2 mo ago)

chuyler1 said:


> You're safe these days, they just want the catalytic converter. When is the aftermarket gonna make removable cats you can stick in your back pocket?
> 
> Kids today most definitely are more into tuning and turbos than amps and subs. I live on a busy street in a smallish town, not indicative of the whole scene, but for every vehicle that passes by with loud music there are 10 with loud exhausts, 2-3 of those with crackle tunes that drive my dogs bonkers. When we all grew up, the bug was passed to us from older generations, or someone showed up at our minimum wage job with a crutchfield paper catalog and we drooled over the pages until we worked enough shifts to buy something second hand. We drove junky cars with no aftermarket support, why would we invest in them? Instead we put our money in audio upgrades we could rip out when the car broke down.


Well said Sir. 

Damn, I have a loud car and I'm adding loud lows lol. I'm still trying to make up for the crap cars I drove in my youth. I remember wanting this Hawk Audio amp when I was fifteen. It was $150.00 brand new and it kept me awake for at least a few weeks worth of nights. Couldn't swing it, even with two jobs on top of high school. It would have turned my 1988 Dodge K car into a Lambo for sure. 

Don't even get me started on the CC's. I own a dealership and we've had over 60 stolen this year alone. Cameras, stadium lights, alarms, engraving vins, painting orange, welding to frames with cable. Nothing stops the bastards.


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> The DEH-P01 was a single din with an external DSP I think that was released in 2001 and I believe one the highest quality, if not the highest, single din’s ever made


That unit seems ahead of its time and im sure it was a dope unit to have back then. But it's very limited compared to a basic DSP from the now time. And its not coparable to the tech of the higher end brands. I for one would never trade my DSP for anything like that from that time or even the now time. 



MobilePioneer said:


> There is nothing like holding a physical piece of media in your hands. When in the car a non compressed CD out of a great DAC is the start to the best sound in my humble opinion. From there the possibilities are endless. Add on as your ears tell you there is a difference. Some people can’t stand EQs. Some would never buy a spectrum analyzer. Those people would probably also not tune their listening position with a microphone and a noise generator.
> 
> there is nothing like physical media…


What are talking bout, my phone is tangible "physical media". If I shake it, it won't freak out. If I scratch it it won't skip a beat. Lol it's all of that and more.










Ppl don't buy spectrum analyzers any more, that's also I thing of the past. Now to tune your system is done through REW and a mic on your laptop. Way more advanced than any physical spectrum analyzer has ever been (maybe im not a spectrum analyzer expert). But if they were that good they would still be a thing now. It's not that ppl can't stand EQs is that dash EQs are very limited compared to a DSP.

Like I said, I get it... you like what you like. But your preaching sound quality to the online group off ppl that has dedicated their lives to in car sound quality. Alot here where into SQ back in the olden days of dash EQs and single dins. But most have moved on cuz there is better now. Then alot like me were just children and would never regress to those time. 

I really think you should have a seat in a SQ car from the now and have a listen for your self. Maybe it will change your mind about today's tech. Or not and you won't ever want to really dive into like the ppl here in this site. 

Don't get it twisted I am far from an expert or posses the knowledge of some folks here. This is a hobby to me, and it was caused from the lack of sound quality from my 18 Accord. The crappy "premium sound system" this car came with has turned my pursuit for good sound to a full blown obsession. Now I'm stuck at the bottom of the rabbit hole with no way out.


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## stonekutta (5 mo ago)

MobilePioneer said:


> what happened to enthusiasts that were enthusiastic about old cars?


we still exist, I promise you!


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Even if your car is fully tuned with perfect house curve, when an old song comes on there is still something to be said about thinking “hey this needs more bass/treble” and at the next stop light leaning forward and making those fine adjustments before pulling away only to change your mind when the next tune comes up. Like driving stick, some people just want tactile control.


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

chuyler1 said:


> Even if your car is fully tuned with perfect house curve, when an old song comes on there is still something to be said about thinking “hey this needs more bass/treble” and at the next stop light leaning forward and making those fine adjustments before pulling away only to change your mind when the next tune comes up. Like driving stick, some people just want tactile control.
> 
> View attachment 353510


That's an actually cool looking old school factory head unit. 

I don't think I've ever said to my self I need more treble. My ears are kinda sensitive to it. And I have the opposite effect on bass though. Most of the time I have too much so I tend to turn it down on some songs. I hardly ever have my sounds turned all the way up. It can be obnoxiously loud. But if I feel like i need more mids or highs I'll just turn it up a lil more then turn down the bass. This lil knob Controls my front sub, rear sub, pre sets, and master volume. You can still make moves on the fly and if your hitting that target curve you won't need to make more than just bass moves.


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## Focused4door (Aug 15, 2015)

No way would I give up steering wheel controls.

But I would like a simple generic tablet mount on the dash and have the steering wheel controls blue tooth to the tablet.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

chuyler1 said:


> Even if your car is fully tuned with perfect house curve, when an old song comes on there is still something to be said about thinking “hey this needs more bass/treble” and at the next stop light leaning forward and making those fine adjustments before pulling away only to change your mind when the next tune comes up. Like driving stick, some people just want tactile control.
> 
> View attachment 353510


Sound tuning is like a surgery. DSP is a scalpel your EQ is Johnny Rambo's knife. While Rambo's knife looks cool, I have seen scalpels in hospitals.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

kiklop32 said:


> Sound tuning is like a surgery. DSP is a scalpel your EQ is Johnny Rambo's knife. While Rambo's knife looks cool, I have seen scalpels in hospitals.


A modern DSP alone does everything good but nothing spectacular. Fine tuning on a laptop sitting in my driveway versus individual adjustments on the fly driving down the freeway is 2 different worlds.

I cannot put that much trust to “set it and forget it.” I’ll never be happy unless I can reach forward and fix the problem at that moment.

A physical EQ with time alignment and full individual crossover control in your hand that does everything a modern DSP does is no different is it? The only real difference is needing to hook up a laptop to tune it.


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> A modern DSP alone does everything good but nothing spectacular. Fine tuning on a laptop sitting in my driveway versus individual adjustments on the fly driving down the freeway is 2 different worlds.
> 
> I cannot put that much trust to “set it and forget it.” I’ll never be happy unless I can reach forward and fix the problem at that moment.
> 
> A physical EQ with time alignment and full individual crossover control in your hand that does everything a modern DSP does is no different is it? The only real difference is needing to hook up a laptop to tune it.


We keep trying to explain that they are not the same, but your not having it. That's fine. Buy the latest and greatest EQ with crossovers and have at it. But I promise that the results will not be the same. What your describing you can get from any modern head unit, which your also against.

An EQ is not a DSP on wheels. Left and right response are never the same if you made an adjustment on an EQ will not fix what your missing. Your ears will never tell you what frequency your missing. On the road you'll just be guessing. Boosting frequencies and possibly driving your speakers into clipping. Especially if it's just a room null. 

For real though do what makes you happy. But your not going to convince anyone to throw their DSPs out the window and run and buy a "physical EQ". I have yet listen to a song that contradicts my house curve to the point I want to make any adjustments. 

I still say you drive down to a shop with a demo vihecle that's has a DSP with an active 3way front and sub. You won't be disappointed. No one is trying to steer you wrong.


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## RedSwede (Aug 11, 2017)

MobilePioneer said:


> A modern DSP alone does everything good but nothing spectacular. Fine tuning on a laptop sitting in my driveway versus individual adjustments on the fly driving down the freeway is 2 different worlds.
> 
> I cannot put that much trust to “set it and forget it.” I’ll never be happy unless I can reach forward and fix the problem at that moment.
> 
> A physical EQ with time alignment and full individual crossover control in your hand that does everything a modern DSP does is no different is it? The only real difference is needing to hook up a laptop to tune it.


Sometimes old school is good. A nice old car has a feel, style, sound that offers an experience. If you want your audio old school as well, that's cool.

But DSP and 8 band EQ are not the same. At all. You only constantly fiddle with your EQ from one song to another because your in car response is all over the map. A big peak in the mid bass might excite on one song, so you make a crude adjustment down. Then bass on another song may sit in a dip and you need to boost it.

Do you need to make constant adjustments to a top level home system? No. Same for a proper DSPd car system.

And "some people hate EQ/DSP" - only in the case that the EQ is badly done, or they are pre-conditioned to hate the idea. Everything you listen to is EQd to the ends of the earth and back...


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

kiklop32 said:


> Sound tuning is like a surgery. DSP is a scalpel your EQ is Johnny Rambo's knife. While Rambo's knife looks cool, I have seen scalpels in hospitals.


I think you misunderstood my post. I was suggesting a graphic eq IN ADDITION TO a fully tuned system has its merits, just like the doctor uses the scalpel in the hospital and sends you home with dressings and meds to care for yourself and take as needed. Can you screw up the sutures? Sure, but only you know when to take the meds to not be in pain. 

Tune your system flat with the DSP, set your gains with headroom, now you have the graphic EQ to try out the audiofrog vs Harmon house curves, or mess with your own curve as you see fit. It’s quite fun.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

I’m not comparing a 8 band 1990 baby Kenwood eq to a 2020 audio control DSP.

I’m comparing a DSP to a P01 with time alignment, full individual speaker equalization, and built in wide band crossovers. Released in ~2001 it has its own external DSP, and with the adjustments in the HU, I can’t seem to find anything a new DSP offers that it can’t do.

The new fancy black boxes that connect to a PC appear to offer nothing you couldn’t have 20 years ago without a PC.


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## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> We keep trying to explain that they are not the same, but your not having it. That's fine. Buy the latest and greatest EQ with crossovers and have at it. But I promise that the results will not be the same. What your describing you can get from any modern head unit, which your also against.
> 
> An EQ is not a DSP on wheels. Left and right response are never the same if you made an adjustment on an EQ will not fix what your missing. Your ears will never tell you what frequency your missing. On the road you'll just be guessing. Boosting frequencies and possibly driving your speakers into clipping. Especially if it's just a room null.
> 
> For real though do what makes you happy. But your not going to convince anyone to throw their DSPs out the window and run and buy a "physical EQ". I have yet listen to a song that contradicts my house curve to the point I want to make any adjustments.


I agree. once my cars were "tuned" I never touched them with the exception of a bass knob. To be honest, I really didnt even touch the bass knob much except for an old rap song, I usually left that alone.

Ive also run old school head units to decent eqs and xovers (audio control stuff) and at one point ran an old school Rockford Symmetry EPX from a really good dead head eclipse, they dont touch what a modern DSP does.


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## RedSwede (Aug 11, 2017)

MobilePioneer said:


> I’m not comparing a 8 band 1990 baby Kenwood eq to a 2020 audio control DSP.
> 
> I’m comparing a DSP to a P01 with time alignment, full individual speaker equalization, and built in wide band crossovers. Released in ~2001 it has its own external DSP, and with the adjustments in the HU, I can’t seem to find anything a new DSP offers that it can’t do.
> 
> The new fancy black boxes that connect to a PC appear to offer nothing you couldn’t have 20 years ago without a PC.


Many DSPs now have 12 channels of audio. I doubt the Pioneer has that... Is it not just 2 L/R EQs? Are they variable Q? I'd hate to think of programming loads of EQ points, full active, without a PC interface

DSPs also offer All Pass filters - good for tricky situations, 2 seat tunes, or properly stacking crossovers

MiniDSP and APL offer FIR and IIR processing to phase align and correct way beyond what a 1 din HU could ever do.

The old gear has its place. I'm not saying otherwise. But there is no way you can argue that the state of the art has stood still.

Also - the reason why fewer people are into car audio, is that in a half decent modern car, the stereo, maybe plus a sub is "ok". 20, 30 years ago they were dreadful in a way that they aren't now, so more people were forced into the hobby. 30, 40 years ago some cars didn't come from the factory with any stereo.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> A modern DSP alone does everything good but nothing spectacular. Fine tuning on a laptop sitting in my driveway versus individual adjustments on the fly driving down the freeway is 2 different worlds.
> 
> I cannot put that much trust to “set it and forget it.” I’ll never be happy unless I can reach forward and fix the problem at that moment.
> 
> A physical EQ with time alignment and full individual crossover control in your hand that does everything a modern DSP does is no different is it? The only real difference is needing to hook up a laptop to tune it.


I would never go back to 1DIN units with DSP or Alpine processors with Rux. After few hours in car with laptop, mic and modern DSP you will have much beter tune than constantly changing setup on your 1DIN EQ.
I can also save more presets to DSP with different level of tweeters and bass. So you can change it as you like. 
If you tune your system right you will never have to make adjustments needed to be corrected immediately.
Also setting up TA, EQ for each channel, signal routing, crossovers etc. on single din with just knob some buttons and limited space display is just terrible. I am much faster with mic, laptop and two monitors.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

chuyler1 said:


> I think you misunderstood my post. I was suggesting a graphic eq IN ADDITION TO a fully tuned system has its merits, just like the doctor uses the scalpel in the hospital and sends you home with dressings and meds to care for yourself and take as needed. Can you screw up the sutures? Sure, but only you know when to take the meds to not be in pain.
> 
> Tune your system flat with the DSP, set your gains with headroom, now you have the graphic EQ to try out the audiofrog vs Harmon house curves, or mess with your own curve as you see fit. It’s quite fun.


I just can not see how this would help. If you want different curves, you can tune your system and save presets. I always prefer to hook up laptop with mic to see exactly how the sound reacts to adjustments it is much faster in the end. If you need to adjust your tune often it just means that the primal tuning is bad and you can not correct it. So you need to use mic anyway.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

I think relying on a laptop instead of your ear is a problem. Musical reproduction is for our ears and not allowing your ears to be the final say is far too trusting of digital for me. I need to be able to adjust every part of the tune at any time. Even if the laptop says it’s all perfect, is it really? Do you click tune and just believe that from the screen? did you actually test a vast range of music at SPL levels verifying the computer is absolutely perfect for you?

or did you have to make final adjustments anyways?

The P01 HU has 8 independent L/R pre outs and independent LPF/gain/timing for sub control. The P01’s DSP has 6 inputs for high mid low, a tuning mic, with all that DSP’s spatial equalization processing power being controlled by the head unit, on the fly, without the need for an external laptop.

if you aren’t watching movies in surround you don’t need anything else as far as outputs or inputs.

this was made in 2001


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> I think relying on a laptop instead of your ear is a problem. Musical reproduction is for our ears and not allowing your ears to be the final say is far too trusting of digital for me. I need to be able to adjust every part of the tune at any time. Even if the laptop says it’s all perfect, is it really? Do you click tune and just believe that from the screen? did you actually test a vast range of music at SPL levels verifying the computer is absolutely perfect for you?
> 
> or did you have to make final adjustments anyways?
> 
> ...


Did you ever actually tune some cars with modern DSPs? Or with mic and laptop?
You always have to adjust it to what final listener likes. The main difference is that with laptop and mic you can exactly see where the problem is. You can see specific frequency and target it directly, not just band of frequencies. 
Or are you able to hear that you have peak on 3128Hz and adjust it?
The fact is that with laptop and mic the tune much more precise and faster because you dont have to guess where the problem is. Also you need to train yourself first to be able to say even the band where the problem is with your ears. This is not necesary with mic because you can see it so it is also easier for normal people. 

Even if we will put aside all the differences and keep it just laptop + mic vs ears and 1DIN, I will be always for laptop and mic. When I tune my system correctly for me I just do not feel any urge to change it after few days or a week. For me it is about to do tuning right for the first time and I can do some little adjustments after I come home again. 
To make it as good as possible for the first time, laptop and mic together with my ears is much better. Also mouse and keyboard are just better than two knobs and a few buttons.
You can not change this even if you post pictures of this HU in every post


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

kiklop32 said:


> If you need to adjust your tune often it just means that the primal tuning is bad and you can not correct it. So you need to use mic anyway.


If you adjust your tune often, it has nothing to do with your primal tuning, it has to do with switching between sources and recording material. And you don't need a mic to know if something isn't the way you want it. You're gonna boost the bass on an old classic rock tune that hasn't been remastered, you're going to cut it back out when you listen to a modern pop tune, an old jazz recording may not be mixed right to your liking, when you switch on the FM radio (gasp how dare we listen to such low fidelity music on a tuned system!), you're gonna find you want to make additional changes. You can't really pull out a lap top the second a song comes on, by the time you figure out what your ears desire, the song is over, the moment has passed. I'm sure if you spend a ton of time, you could derive presets for all these conditions, but some listeners just want to mess around with it on the fly. It has it's place, it's a cool toy, that's all the OP was suggesting. I'm saying we can have both. A perfectly tuned system with a dash EQ flat, and the ability to play with it as we see fit afterwards.



> just laptop + mic vs ears and 1DIN, I will be always for laptop and mic


We all agree with this. No way a 1/2 din or 1 din graphic eq or 3 band PEQ can _replace_ a DSP.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

chuyler1 said:


> If you adjust your tune often, it has nothing to do with your primal tuning, it has to do with switching between sources and recording material. And you don't need a mic to know if something isn't the way you want it. You're gonna boost the bass on an old classic rock tune that hasn't been remastered, you're going to cut it back out when you listen to a modern pop tune, an old jazz recording may not be mixed right to your liking, when you switch on the FM radio (gasp how dare we listen to such low fidelity music on a tuned system!), you're gonna find you want to make additional changes. You can't really pull out a lap top the second a song comes on, by the time you figure out what your ears desire, the song is over, the moment has passed. I'm sure if you spend a ton of time, you could derive presets for all these conditions, but some listeners just want to mess around with it on the fly. It has it's place, it's a cool toy, that's all the OP was suggesting. I'm saying we can have both. A perfectly tuned system with a dash EQ flat, and the ability to play with it as we see fit afterwards.


It is nice to see how people are different , I would never tune my system separately for FM/AM radio it is just garbage and I can not imagine that someone with higher end equip would be happy with AM/FM radio. I always tune my system to my primal source. It is Fioo for now. And for the short time when I am listening to AM/FM I can live with EQ for Fiio. I am not listening AM/FM for music if I want to listen to music I want the best source and pick the music by myself.
Also you are not able to say exact problematic frequency with your ears so instead of try and error adjustment while driving a prefer to wait to get home and do it properly, let alone safely with car stationary.
I can adjust bass with controler what exists for almost any DSP, for helix it is URC, Director, Conductor.

I have spend about 10 years with alpine DSP with Rux only and after helix I can not even imagine to go back. You can adjust EQ directly with Rux but simply the proces of adjustment while driving is so bad for me you will add a db here and over there, back again, next band.... drive a few km / miles and do it again. For me it is better to stay in garage and do it on place, focused only to tuning not driving. And I can dring coffe, texting and driving so my multitasking in car is not the problem


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

If I really wanted to make an adjustment due to a recording I could do it on my phone. My phone is my main source and it has a built in EQ. But I have yet to listen to a song and say I need to make EQ adjustment right now. Let alone redo my tune. Theres no need on my opinion. I have it where I like it and it stays there. I have alot of head room so if I'm missing something in my front stage I turn it up, and if it's too much bass I turn a knob and the bass comes down, I have too much midbass (🤭 like if any one has ever said that) I turn a knob and turn the front sub down. There's no need for more than that after you have your tune to your liking.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

kiklop32 said:


> Did you ever actually tune some cars with modern DSPs? Or with mic and laptop?
> You always have to adjust it to what final listener likes. The main difference is that with laptop and mic you can exactly see where the problem is. You can see specific frequency and target it directly, not just band of frequencies.
> Or are you able to hear that you have peak on 3128Hz and adjust it?
> The fact is that with laptop and mic the tune much more precise and faster because you dont have to guess where the problem is. Also you need to train yourself first to be able to say even the band where the problem is with your ears. This is not necesary with mic because you can see it so it is also easier for normal people.
> ...


if my ears hear a problem with audio then I fix it right away. If my ears don’t hear a problem, is there really a problem? Even if a computer tells me there’s a 6,500 Hz spike, I wouldn’t burn that to memory as fact. It’s reading is also just a reference. I would let my ears listen for that and make a change while listening for a correction. If the correction was not noticeable I would revert it back, regardless of what the laptop told me. In the end it’s all about what pleases my ears and a computer screen with flowing graphs can’t tell me if music is pleasing. 


chuyler1 said:


> If you adjust your tune often, it has nothing to do with your primal tuning, it has to do with switching between sources and recording material. And you don't need a mic to know if something isn't the way you want it. You're gonna boost the bass on an old classic rock tune that hasn't been remastered, you're going to cut it back out when you listen to a modern pop tune, an old jazz recording may not be mixed right to your liking, when you switch on the FM radio (gasp how dare we listen to such low fidelity music on a tuned system!), you're gonna find you want to make additional changes. You can't really pull out a lap top the second a song comes on, by the time you figure out what your ears desire, the song is over, the moment has passed. I'm sure if you spend a ton of time, you could derive presets for all these conditions, but some listeners just want to mess around with it on the fly. It has it's place, it's a cool toy, that's all the OP was suggesting. I'm saying we can have both. A perfectly tuned system with a dash EQ flat, and the ability to play with it as we see fit afterwards.
> 
> 
> We all agree with this. No way a 1/2 din or 1 din graphic eq or 3 band PEQ can _replace_ a DSP.


I agree. There is no be all end all. Every component has its merits.
In the vintage home audio world using an equalizer and pink noise generator with a mic while watching an analyzer is blasphemy 😂

my home stereo 1982 pioneer SG-750 does all this. And I use it.


kiklop32 said:


> It is nice to see how people are different , I would never tune my system separately for FM/AM radio it is just garbage and I can not imagine that someone with higher end equip would be happy with AM/FM radio. I always tune my system to my primal source. It is Fioo for now. And for the short time when I am listening to AM/FM I can live with EQ for Fiio. I am not listening AM/FM for music if I want to listen to music I want the best source and pick the music by myself.
> Also you are not able to say exact problematic frequency with your ears so instead of try and error adjustment while driving a prefer to wait to get home and do it properly, let alone safely with car stationary.
> I can adjust bass with controler what exists for almost any DSP, for helix it is URC, Director, Conductor.
> 
> I have spend about 10 years with alpine DSP with Rux only and after helix I can not even imagine to go back. You can adjust EQ directly with Rux but simply the proces of adjustment while driving is so bad for me you will add a db here and over there, back again, next band.... drive a few km / miles and do it again. For me it is better to stay in garage and do it on place, focused only to tuning not driving. And I can dring coffe, texting and driving so my multitasking in car is not the problem


when you get older you might find yourself briefly listening to things you never imagined, like talk radio haha


ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> If I really wanted to make an adjustment due to a recording I could do it on my phone. My phone is my main source and it has a built in EQ. But I have yet to listen to a song and say I need to make EQ adjustment right now. Let alone redo my tune. Theres no need on my opinion. I have it where I like it and it stays there. I have alot of head room so if I'm missing something in my front stage I turn it up, and if it's too much bass I turn a knob and the bass comes down, I have too much midbass (🤭 like if any one has ever said that) I turn a knob and turn the front sub down. There's no need for more than that after you have your tune to your liking.


I have a jailbroken iPhone 6s on ios 8.4. There is a tweak called equalizer everywhere. It works great to eliminate clipping from the phone at max volume.

The big question is why does my iPhone clip so bad at max volume with zero eq adjustments?


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> my ears hear a problem with audio then I fix it right away. If my ears don’t hear a problem, is there really a problem? Even if a computer tells me there’s a 6,500 Hz spike, I wouldn’t burn that to memory as fact. It’s reading is also just a reference. I would let my ears listen for that and make a change while listening for a correction. If the correction was not noticeable I would revert it back, regardless of what the laptop told me. In the end it’s all about what pleases my ears and a computer screen with flowing graphs can’t tell me if music is pleasing.


REW will be alot more accurate than your ears I promise. You Said it your self your getting old. As time passes our hearing isn't what it use to be when we were spring chickens. How do you know if it's the recording and not your hearing. REW will tell you. Im 36 and i get yearly hearing exams for work. The initial test years ago established a base line of my hearing. Then they go off of that to see how my hearing is progressing throught the years if beeing in loud environments. My 6k on one of my ears ( I dont remember which one any more i think its my right) is starting to degrade. 

Your target curve doesn't need to be my target curve. We all have different taste in sound. I like a lil more bass than most so from 500 my curve starts gradually going up intill around 60hz where I try n get as flat as possible down to where my subs roll off. From 500 to like 10k I want it flat the 10k up is down a lil bit. Your EQ will never yield these results accurately. It's just moving an electrical signal. You need to see your acoustical response. Just cuz you boost 70hz doesn't mean you'll hear that boost. But you can potentially clip that signal if you boost too much. But like I said before if that's what you like no one will stop you. Your mind is set that it's the best possible sound adjustments.Just food for thought. 



MobilePioneer said:


> I have a jailbroken iPhone 6s on ios 8.4. There is a tweak called equalizer everywhere. It works great to eliminate clipping from the phone at max volume.
> 
> The big question is why does my iPhone clip so bad at max volume with zero eq adjustments?


That's the issue. Iphone 6. I don't mess with the EQ on my phone. There's no need to. Clipping the phone signal? I didn't know that was possible. Maybe if your hard wired into the head unit? I don't think you can clip a Bluetooth signal. I have my volume maxed on my phone always and I haven't had any issues.


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> That's the issue. Iphone 6.


I don't have a dog in the old school vs new school fight(actually prefer using both together when possible) but as far as the iPhone goes, the 5, 5se & 6 were Apples highest quality units for audio quality. That's according to my brother-in-laws old college roommate, who heads iTunes at Apple and is a huge audiophile(can't stand that word either). And yes, the audio quality of those phones is due to the aux output & not a BT signal. 

Anyway, carry on.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

chuyler1 said:


> Even if your car is fully tuned with perfect house curve, when an old song comes on there is still something to be said about thinking “hey this needs more bass/treble” and at the next stop light leaning forward and making those fine adjustments before pulling away only to change your mind when the next tune comes up. Like driving stick, some people just want tactile control.
> 
> View attachment 353510


100% almost every competition car I built pre DSP had analog 1/3rd octave eq's and a parametric in the dash. They could do whatever they wanted with the dash EQ and defeat it for judging.
I loved the instant feedback of analog pots when tuning and miss that now.
Once DSP's were available I'd do a judging preset and a "road" tune to compensate when they were driving so it was more work but the benefits were greater.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> if my ears hear a problem with audio then I fix it right away. If my ears don’t hear a problem, is there really a problem? Even if a computer tells me there’s a 6,500 Hz spike, I wouldn’t burn that to memory as fact. It’s reading is also just a reference. I would let my ears listen for that and make a change while listening for a correction. If the correction was not noticeable I would revert it back, regardless of what the laptop told me. In the end it’s all about what pleases my ears and a computer screen with flowing graphs can’t tell me if music is pleasing.


The question is why would you hear a problem with correctly made tuning? I can imagine that for a few days after tuning there can be some adjustments. But after a few days you will be finished and you dont need it anymore.
Your ears does not need to hear a problem and still the problem will exists.
If your laptop tells you that you have a spike at 6,5kHz you have it because you should use calibrated mic with flat response, so it is not a reference in every case mic is more accurate than ears.
I believe that trained person is able to guess in what frequencies the problem can be. Lets say you can identify some mistake 2.500 ± 300Hz and you will start moving with EQ to find the problem. With mic I can see in few minutes that the problem is 2.560Hz because of peak +4db to neighboring frequencies.
I believe that the problem is that you do not believe in new tech at all.

Also you did not answere to my guestion how many systems did you tune with modern dsp, laptop and mic?


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## eltigre (2 mo ago)

I see a version of this conversation almost everyday at work. Some techs here prefer to diagnose and repair with new scanners and modern precision equipment, and they do indeed get to the root of the problem very efficiently. Others are OS and can pilfer out the required repair from a deep pool of experience after hearing a decent description of the symptoms. Honestly, I've found the best teams to be comprised of a good balance of both styles working together.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

kiklop32 said:


> The question is why would you hear a problem with correctly made tuning? I can imagine that for a few days after tuning there can be some adjustments. But after a few days you will be finished and you dont need it anymore.
> Your ears does not need to hear a problem and still the problem will exists.
> If your laptop tells you that you have a spike at 6,5kHz you have it because you should use calibrated mic with flat response, so it is not a reference in every case mic is more accurate than ears.
> I believe that trained person is able to guess in what frequencies the problem can be. Lets say you can identify some mistake 2.500 ± 300Hz and you will start moving with EQ to find the problem. With mic I can see in few minutes that the problem is 2.560Hz because of peak +4db to neighboring frequencies.
> ...


Just a few minutes ago I was searching the internet for the quality of Rush’s Grace Under Pressure “remaster” album on CD from 1997. I was thinking of buying it just to listen to on my new system when it’s completed.

The recording has a lot (if not everything) to do with adjustments. I already own the album on LP, but I’d like to hear the difference. Every recording is different too.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> Just a few minutes ago I was searching the internet for the quality of Rush’s Grace Under Pressure “remaster” album on CD from 1997. I was thinking of buying it just to listen to on my new system when it’s completed.
> 
> The recording has a lot (if not everything) to do with adjustments. I already own the album on LP, but I’d like to hear the difference. Every recording is different too.


So none is the answer?


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## mitigating (5 mo ago)

Jroo said:


> Head unit market died with oem integration. In think in the next few years even the big floating screens out now will be gone. The oems will make it harder and harder and eventually everything will be tapped in beyond what ever factory screen is there. In my car, the screen you see is just an lcd, it has a fiber optic cable that runs to the brain under the seat. Can’t do a din unit at all.


But at least stock radios are reasonable quality and power now.


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## yobbo7 (9 mo ago)

KillerBox said:


> In 2018, my son's 2010 navigation Lexus headunit quit playing music. A refurbished head for it was over $5,000.00 USD.


Pretty hard to believe. I have a 2021 BMW and a head unit can be had on eBay for like 1200. This is OEM HK and includes wireless CarPlay. In general I’ve never seen Toyota/Lexus parts be more expensive than BMW/MB/Audi parts.


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## yobbo7 (9 mo ago)

Sounds_Insane said:


> Why would OEMs want to help the aftermarket audio scene, they would rather sell you the $2,500 "upgraded" audio package. Besides, car audio doesn't have the following it used to.


They are just trying to improve their product, which means dashboards that don’t have generic ugly rectangular cutouts, and infotainment systems that integrate with the entire car. Improving the audio means DSP that integrates with the particular microphone and speaker setup in the car. It’s just too custom now to work like it did in 1998.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

kiklop32 said:


> So none is the answer?


 I must have missed your question. I used to work install at Best Buy. I’ve tuned probably hundreds of systems. Some with DSP’s. Most without. 


mitigating said:


> But at least stock radios are reasonable quality and power now.


Reasonable? Who wants that. 😝


yobbo7 said:


> They are just trying to improve their product, which means dashboards that don’t have generic ugly rectangular cutouts, and infotainment systems that integrate with the entire car. Improving the audio means DSP that integrates with the particular microphone and speaker setup in the car. It’s just too custom now to work like it did in 1998.


Putting a round plastic bezel over a rectangular box behind it does nothing for me aesthetically. My 97 escort has this. It’s such a pain in my ass to upgrade and disgusting to look at.


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## nyquistrate (Apr 17, 2011)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> I think you may be an Era behind. That dash Is from like 2008. Dashes look like this now.



That’s because his photo is from a 2005 Nissan Maxima.


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

nyquistrate said:


> That’s because his photo is from a 2005 Nissan Maxima.


My guess was close enough


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

2006 maxima, 2020 mustang. The point is the same. It’s a huge integrated mess of plastic and giant external buttons, that look like my grandma’s old tv remote, with little chance for replacement of all that wasted space with high end audio equipment.















I’m now wondering if the 96 taurus was the one to start this trend of integrated HVAC and stereo controls, which my 97 escort’s radio/HVAC was designed after.

*Was this the first?*


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

When a car is very popular metra actually makes dash kits to solve these issues. But unfortunately for you an older Ford escort may not be high in the popularity list. Try searching for dash kits for your car.


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

Stereo Install Dash Kit fits Ford Escort 97 98 99 00 01 -car radio wiring installation parts Amazon.com: Stereo Install Dash Kit fits Ford Escort 97 98 99 00 01 -car radio wiring installation parts : Electronics


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

I have 2 of the dash kits already. One metra, one from a 2003 zx2 which came factory with a single din. I have been putting a system together for it. But I wish I could have more. I also wish it would look a little nicer. The dash space is there for a lot more. It’s just the round design and integrated HVAC that is so limiting, just as most modern cars are today (the point of this thread).


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> I have 2 of the dash kits already. One metra, one from a 2003 zx2 which came factory with a single din. I have been putting a system together for it. But I wish I could have more. I also wish it would look a little nicer. The dash space is there for a lot more. It’s just the round design and integrated HVAC that is so limiting, just as most modern cars are today (the point of this thread).


Then it's time to start thinking of new head unit options. You can get all the features you get from your old school HU and EQ and more. I say you give it a chance. Worst case senerio, you don't like it then sell it here.

JOYING Android 10.0 Octa Core Car Radio 8.8 Inch Universal 4GB RAM+64GB ROM Single Din Touchscreen Car Stereo GPS Sat Nav Support Bluetooth/5G WiFi/USB/SD/FM Radio/Android Auto/Subwoofer/Fastboot Amazon.com: JOYING Android 10.0 Octa Core Car Radio 8.8 Inch Universal 4GB RAM+64GB ROM Single Din Touchscreen Car Stereo GPS Sat Nav Support Bluetooth/5G WiFi/USB/SD/FM Radio/Android Auto/Subwoofer/Fastboot : Electronics


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## nyquistrate (Apr 17, 2011)

MobilePioneer said:


> 2006 maxima, 2020 mustang.


So close! I had a silver 2005. Yes, very much wasted space. I have a dash kit up for free for anyone still driving one.



MobilePioneer said:


> I’m now wondering if the 96 taurus was the one to start this trend of integrated HVAC and stereo controls, which my 97 escort’s radio/HVAC was designed after.
> 
> *Was this the first?*


Bingo. The Taurus started the odd shaped radio departure from the DIN format. I remember all the audio guys discussing this new trend when Ford released that Taurus.


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> Then it's time to start thinking of new head unit options. You can get all the features you get from your old school HU and EQ and more. I say you give it a chance. Worst case senerio, you don't like it then sell it here.
> 
> JOYING Android 10.0 Octa Core Car Radio 8.8 Inch Universal 4GB RAM+64GB ROM Single Din Touchscreen Car Stereo GPS Sat Nav Support Bluetooth/5G WiFi/USB/SD/FM Radio/Android Auto/Subwoofer/Fastboot Amazon.com: JOYING Android 10.0 Octa Core Car Radio 8.8 Inch Universal 4GB RAM+64GB ROM Single Din Touchscreen Car Stereo GPS Sat Nav Support Bluetooth/5G WiFi/USB/SD/FM Radio/Android Auto/Subwoofer/Fastboot : Electronics


I can see the resistance to these touch screens in the dash. I also can’t stand having a tablet or iPad look in the dash of a car. That’s why I tend to buy & keep older vehicles. Don’t know why op just doesn’t use a quality old school deck with a nice ppi, monolithic, Zapco or other preamp then to a dsp. As others have stated, tune with the dash preamp flat or neutral then keep the “on the fly” functionality of the old school preamp. Best of both worlds.


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## Impossible Bill (9 mo ago)

I came back into car audio after a long absence. For me the old school vs new school question was easy, new stuff is better performing. Time will tell if it's as reliable as the bulletproof products of yesteryear but at the moment it wasn't even a consideration.

My challenge was really applying old school knowledge and techniques to the tools available. It seemed like the whole industry got a bit narrow minded in believing this is what works and is the magic formula. There are so many "must do's" and less creativity than back then. Everything is a compromise, is about how you approach and deal with them. The idea that a target curve is ideal in a particular car, with a particular system is like a fortune cookie giving you the winning the lottery numbers. It may be good but critical listening is needed to get the last mile. 
If everyone does the same thing what gets learned? I had a discussion yesterday with someone willing to spend a bunch more money chasing improvements to a really excellent system. I told him to eat the baby. Back in the old school days I would have a competition car that sounded great and won local and regional shows that was going to finals. You have to try to make it better. The stress of turning dials to make it better knowing I might not be able to improve it or get it back was real. In the new school you can throw that great tune away and start over and go right back to where you were in a few seconds.
I A / B changes, usually end up making a C which blends the. A and B options and that becomes the new A and it gets repeated. The key is to focus on small areas and build upon what's there already. Sometimes it's a crossover change that can be drastic, sometimes it's .5db change. I miss the instant feedback of analog gear but the safety in experimenting is great.


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## mitigating (5 mo ago)

Impossible Bill said:


> I came back into car audio after a long absence. For me the old school vs new school question was easy, new stuff is better performing. Time will tell if it's as reliable as the bulletproof products of yesteryear but at the moment it wasn't even a consideration.
> 
> My challenge was really applying old school knowledge and techniques to the tools available. It seemed like the whole industry got a bit narrow minded in believing this is what works and is the magic formula. There are so many "must do's" and less creativity than back then. Everything is a compromise, is about how you approach and deal with them. The idea that a target curve is ideal in a particular car, with a particular system is like a fortune cookie giving you the winning the lottery numbers. It may be good but critical listening is needed to get the last mile.
> If everyone does the same thing what gets learned? I had a discussion yesterday with someone willing to spend a bunch more money chasing improvements to a really excellent system. I told him to eat the baby. Back in the old school days I would have a competition car that sounded great and won local and regional shows that was going to finals. You have to try to make it better. The stress of turning dials to make it better knowing I might not be able to improve it or get it back was real. In the new school you can throw that great tune away and start over and go right back to where you were in a few seconds.
> I A / B changes, usually end up making a C which blends the. A and B options and that becomes the new A and it gets repeated. The key is to focus on small areas and build upon what's there already. Sometimes it's a crossover change that can be drastic, sometimes it's .5db change. I miss the instant feedback of analog gear but the safety in experimenting is great.


There are some amazing devices now as well. Since everyone is talking about how hard it is to replace the OEM headunit there are devices that will flatten the OEM DSP. You also have DSPs that can be programmed with a laptop which is so nice because you can save different settings and do A B testing easily. 

My first car was a 82 Oldsmobile Cutlass supreme. I think it had 4 speakers and a AM/FM with no tape. It was so freaking bad so I got a kenwood 25wx4 and some 2-ways all around. Thing is that Kenwood and speaker upgrade is worse than my base system in my 2022 GTI. I'm sure there are cars with bad OEM systems, like base Yaris or something, but usually you end up with enough power and quality that most people are good.


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## mitigating (5 mo ago)

Oh boy am I inserting myself here but I can't help it. One other complaint that made me work on my own car is car stereo shops today. In the late 90s I could walk into a place and the guy would be like "ok so we can do this with parts for $300 or you could upgrade for a bit better for $500, or you can do this......" 

They had reasonable options at the low and mid end. Now you call a place and it's like "Ok so for your car we can either do the $3500 system or the $8000 system"


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Your memory may be a bit skewed as to how far $300-500 went back in the day. That was a pair of entry level speakers and a head unit upgrade for me in the mid 90’s. Now if you walked into a store with that same late 80s / early 90s bone stock vehicle I’m sure the shop could hook you up for the same amount, adjusting for inflation you’d actually make out better now, two sets of speakers and a decent head unit for under $1000.

Except most customers waltz in with modern cars, that already have mid level quality systems. In order for the shop to do better than a 3-5 yr old factory system, they’re gonna have to sell you more equipment. The factory gave you a midbass and tweeter, so already you’re looking at component sets, the factory gave you 20-40wpc so they’re gonna have to double that, the factory threw in a weak subwoofer so that’s gonna be upgraded too.


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## yobbo7 (9 mo ago)

MobilePioneer said:


> I must have missed your question. I used to work install at Best Buy. I’ve tuned probably hundreds of systems. Some with DSP’s. Most without.
> Reasonable? Who wants that. 😝
> Putting a round plastic bezel over a rectangular box behind it does nothing for me aesthetically. My 97 escort has this. It’s such a pain in my ass to upgrade and disgusting to look at.
> View attachment 353816
> ...


If that's your reference for a "modern" dash then I don't know what to say. I've seen zero actual modern dashboards in this thread.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

yobbo7 said:


> If that's your reference for a "modern" dash then I don't know what to say. I've seen zero actual modern dashboards in this thread.


Nah I never said that. Page 1 first photo was my reference.


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## yobbo7 (9 mo ago)

MobilePioneer said:


> Nah I never said that. Page 1 first photo was my reference.


That's not modern either, tbh.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

yobbo7 said:


> That's not modern either, tbh.


We already had this exact discussion in this thread. I posted a 2020 mustang dash which looks identical. We moved on lol


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## yobbo7 (9 mo ago)

MobilePioneer said:


> We already had this exact discussion in this thread. I posted a 2020 mustang dash which looks identical. We moved on lol


Well, what you posted isn't a 2020 Mustang dash, first of all. I Googled it and it looks nothing like the pics that come up. Second, the Mustang is a bad example anyway and that was the previous generation of a car that is known to have a horrible interior. In any halfway decent new car, they look way better than some junk you can replace with double DIN.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

Sure it is


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

I also know I could fab a bezel, install 2 single or a double din, I absolutely could wire each button to an arduino to send a signal out and have the buttons do what I want where I want.

I don’t have that kind of time there is no way I could find it. Not to mention I don’t own a 2020 mustang and it is infinitely harder to fab a bezel for the round 97 escort.


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## mitigating (5 mo ago)

chuyler1 said:


> Your memory may be a bit skewed as to how far $300-500 went back in the day. That was a pair of entry level speakers and a head unit upgrade for me in the mid 90’s. Now if you walked into a store with that same late 80s / early 90s bone stock vehicle I’m sure the shop could hook you up for the same amount, adjusting for inflation you’d actually make out better now, two sets of speakers and a decent head unit for under $1000.
> 
> Except most customers waltz in with modern cars, that already have mid level quality systems. In order for the shop to do better than a 3-5 yr old factory system, they’re gonna have to sell you more equipment. The factory gave you a midbass and tweeter, so already you’re looking at component sets, the factory gave you 20-40wpc so they’re gonna have to double that, the factory threw in a weak subwoofer so that’s gonna be upgraded too.


So I have a 2022 gti. 
2 a pillar tweeters
2 front door woofers
2 rear door "full range "
Radio amp, 20watt per channel

I went with the focal kit because I don't have the experience to fit speakers or use those plastic rings. Imagine though I did

Hertz k165. - 6.5" woofer, tweeter $129
Hertz x165 - 6.5" 2 way $120
Alpine s-a32f 55x4 $220
Factory harness, plastic rings, backing material $100

Parts $570, and that's at crutchfield prices, maybe lower for installers. Since you can use the exisiting wiring what's the labor on this?

Installed would this be less than $1500? I'm sure it would sound better than stock


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

It should be under $1500 installed, but you didn’t mention a subwoofer. I don’t keep track of which new vehicles offer subwoofers, but a $3500-8000 system as mentioned before certainly should include one.


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## Genesis (6 mo ago)

You are free to keep driving your clapped out junk using old inferior equipment. Literally NO ONE is stopping you. Thats your option. Do so and stop whining. This isnt productive discussion. This is "low education goof tilts at windmills".


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## stonekutta (5 mo ago)

Genesis said:


> You are free to keep driving your clapped out junk using old inferior equipment. Literally NO ONE is stopping you. Thats your option. Do so and stop whining. This isnt productive discussion. This is "low education goof tilts at windmills".


Wow- the op wrote this in the old school car audio section of the forum. Neither He nor anyone is personally attacking anyones choices, simply voicing an opinion on car audio. Easy with the vitriol. But I will still continue to drive my clapped out junk with old inferior equipment, Thanks for noticing!


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

I just had a conversation about my 11 month old iPhone that has a full hard drive and a lightning connector port that charges but doesn’t data transfer. Can’t get my photos off. Can’t risk sending it to apple for repair and losing my photos. The new phone at Best Buy was 1200$ and they couldn’t sell me a phone with 1TB or even half TB HD because of chip shortages. Imagine buying a 64 GB 800$ phone that had a 42 GB operating system. I’m not that stupid. 

My iPhone 6 is still mint, I still use it for music and taking photos at home. I can transfer the photos to my computer and keep the phone from filling up. But I can’t use it as a phone because the software can’t be updated and the developers no longer support the last version supported by the operating system.

New technology is a damn joke. You buy subscriptions now. You don’t buy quality products.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> I just had a conversation about my 11 month old iPhone that has a full hard drive and a lightning connector port that charges but doesn’t data transfer. Can’t get my photos off. Can’t risk sending it to apple for repair and losing my photos. The new phone at Best Buy was 1200$ and they couldn’t sell me a phone with 1TB or even half TB HD because of chip shortages. Imagine buying a 64 GB 800$ phone that had a 42 GB operating system. I’m not that stupid.
> 
> My iPhone 6 is still mint, I still use it for music and taking photos at home. I can transfer the photos to my computer and keep the phone from filling up. But I can’t use it as a phone because the software can’t be updated and the developers no longer support the last version supported by the operating system.
> 
> New technology is a damn joke. You buy subscriptions now. You don’t buy quality products.


That is problem of Apple. Not new tech.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

kiklop32 said:


> That is problem of Apple. Not new tech.


No I went and looked at the android phones and liked the s22 but again they did not have large HD phones in stock anywhere. They give you an amazing camera and little storage and a phone built with stacked processors that like to heat up and suck battery before dying early deaths. It’s universal now. Buy. Use. Landfill. Repeat. Probably all aluminum traces in there now. Gold lasted too long. 🤣


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> No I went and looked at the android phones and liked the s22 but again they did not have large HD phones in stock anywhere. They give you an amazing camera and little storage and a phone built with stacked processors that like to heat up and suck battery before dying early deaths. It’s universal now. Buy. Use. Landfill. Repeat. Probably all aluminum traces in there now. Gold lasted too long. 🤣


I got a s22 ultra with 256gb. That's plenty for a phone. You don't need 1tb, that's what hard drives are for. My phones never get close to full before I move on then dump them into an external hard drive, then start fresh.


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> I got a s22 ultra with 256gb. That's plenty for a phone. You don't need 1tb, that's what hard drives are for. My phones never get close to full before I move on then dump them into an external hard drive, then start fresh.


S21 5g with 256gb here and i have two 1/2Tb flash drives, one for backup and one for media (pics, vids, music)

I for one don't miss tuning 2 EQ's (left front/rear, right front/rear) because a blanket, single 7band is nowhere near enough. I look forward to seeing what a DSP can offer, but i'm still gonna run passive crossovers and use the TA and hp/bp/lp filters in the headunit until i can go active. It all has a place and a time....

For the mustang guys, S197 dash eats the new ones alive. And there is jack-all for space from the wiring unless you reroute it behimd the 2din frame. Good luck with that though


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> I just had a conversation about my 11 month old iPhone that has a full hard drive and a lightning connector port that charges but doesn’t data transfer. Can’t get my photos off. Can’t risk sending it to apple for repair and losing my photos. The new phone at Best Buy was 1200$ and they couldn’t sell me a phone with 1TB or even half TB HD because of chip shortages. Imagine buying a 64 GB 800$ phone that had a 42 GB operating system. I’m not that stupid.
> 
> My iPhone 6 is still mint, I still use it for music and taking photos at home. I can transfer the photos to my computer and keep the phone from filling up. But I can’t use it as a phone because the software can’t be updated and the developers no longer support the last version supported by the operating system.
> 
> New technology is a damn joke. You buy subscriptions now. You don’t buy quality products.


Anyway why to have 1TB phone?


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## Forddenial (8 mo ago)

One word: LOSSLESS

🤣🤣🤣


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

MobilePioneer said:


> I just had a conversation about my 11 month old iPhone that has a full hard drive and a lightning connector port that charges but doesn’t data transfer. Can’t get my photos off. Can’t risk sending it to apple for repair and losing my photos. The new phone at Best Buy was 1200$ and they couldn’t sell me a phone with 1TB or even half TB HD because of chip shortages. Imagine buying a 64 GB 800$ phone that had a 42 GB operating system. I’m not that stupid.
> 
> My iPhone 6 is still mint, I still use it for music and taking photos at home. I can transfer the photos to my computer and keep the phone from filling up. But I can’t use it as a phone because the software can’t be updated and the developers no longer support the last version supported by the operating system.
> 
> New technology is a damn joke. You buy subscriptions now. You don’t buy quality products.


I'm still rocking an iPhone 5se. Just received an update a couple weeks ago. Looks like I'm on 15.6.1


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## yobbo7 (9 mo ago)

kiklop32 said:


> Anyway why to have 1TB phone?


Video is the only reason. People who shoot with iPhones.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

You wouldn’t believe how much space videos of my cats and dogs takes up.


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

An other thing that you can do is set up a Google drive. I get 100gb free. Then when it starts to get full you just dump it to a hard drive and keep going. Don't even need your phone to do it. Sign in on your pc then just unload in the background. When done delete and start your Google drive fresh again. Doesn't Apple have something similar. I know I pay some type if sub for the wife every year.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

rmenergy said:


> I'm still rocking an iPhone 5se. Just received an update a couple weeks ago. Looks like I'm on 15.6.1


What’s a 5se? There was a 5s and an SE2016 and a SE2020. I have all of them.

Only the 2020 SE is still receiving updates.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> An other thing that you can do is set up a Google drive. I get 100gb free. Then when it starts to get full you just dump it to a hard drive and keep going. Don't even need your phone to do it. Sign in on your pc then just unload in the background. When done delete and start your Google drive fresh again. Doesn't Apple have something similar. I know I pay some type if sub for the wife every year.


You never dealt with the photobucket fiasco did you?

I will never again trust a third party to store my precious memories. Im also not paying for a hard drive subscription service when they cost $20 a TB.


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

Photo bucket, no.. but I trust Google. But like I said it takes no time at all to download to a HD. Don't even need my phone to do it. And I get 100gb for free I don't pay a dime. I pay for my wife's cuz she likes her apple products. There is no need to for you to have so much storage on a phone. 

Let's say you had a night out. Made a video and that took up a bunch of storage. When you get home to the wifi, it automatically syncs to the Google drive. Next morning you sign in to your Google account on your PC. Then download it. Delete from your Google account and your phone. Done. You can't let 1 bad experience ruin technology for you.

It works for me. I get a new phone every other year and I never run out of storage. I pay for my phones cash no monthly payment. Matter of fact I paid like 300$ for my galaxy s22 ultra cuz Samsung gave me 1k$ credit for my Note 20 ultra. Get rid of the phones while they still have value and move on.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

I trusted photobucket from 2005 til about 2015 when they restricted all my images and demanded money. Ruining every thread and post I ever put on the internet.

I don’t trust Google one bit. I trust the hard drive I have and the copy of it to keep my information safe.

I just received a notice in the mail for a class action lawsuit against my mobile carrier for leaking my data to hackers.

Apple admits that updating your operating system slows down your device. It’s all garbage now as far as I’m concerned. They have us in a rotating subscription service for hardware. I’m not paying 800-1600$ for a phone that lasts 2 years. My current phone is 11 months old and has a lot of issues.


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

MobilePioneer said:


> What’s a 5se? There was a 5s and an SE2016 and a SE2020. I have all of them.
> 
> Only the 2020 SE is still receiving updates.


5se was a 6S in a 5 case.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

Make technology great again! Let's go back to a time when our cars only lasted 2 winters but our phones lasted forever...except the big telecom companies would charge us by the minute for calling our grandmother because she lived 2 zip codes away. Oh and while we're at it, lets downgrade our cameras too so we have to wait a month to find out our finger was over the lens. 

Anyway, its funny how they say the internet never forgets...but clearly it fails to remember the important stuff, like our awesome photos of the inside of car door panels.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> I trusted photobucket from 2005 til about 2015 when they restricted all my images and demanded money. Ruining every thread and post I ever put on the internet.
> 
> I don’t trust Google one bit. I trust the hard drive I have and the copy of it to keep my information safe.
> 
> ...


Any phone should not be only one storage as you can loose it, damage it, get stolen etc.
Imagine my situation. Anytime I connect to my home wifi I have all my phones backed up to my server. You can build yourself xpenology server with as many drives as needed, with raid protection, easy acces from outside, media server, download server and many more functions.
I know it can sound like witchcraft but it works. Or we can go back to polaroid


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> I trusted photobucket from 2005 til about 2015 when they restricted all my images and demanded money. Ruining every thread and post I ever put on the internet.
> 
> I don’t trust Google one bit. I trust the hard drive I have and the copy of it to keep my information safe.
> 
> ...


I don't know what apple does to phones. I've never owned one. Or will ever own one. My phones last way more than 2 years. I just choose to move on after 2. 

Buy a camera and use an Obama phone. Call it a day.


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

ItsonlyaHONDA said:


> I don't know what apple does to phones. I've never owned one. Or will ever own one. My phones last way more than 2 years. I just choose to move on after 2.
> 
> Buy a camera and use an Obama phone. Call it a day.


Steve Jobs died & their products went to crap.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

kiklop32 said:


> Any phone should not be only one storage as you can loose it, damage it, get stolen etc.
> Imagine my situation. Anytime I connect to my home wifi I have all my phones backed up to my server. You can build yourself xpenology server with as many drives as needed, with raid protection, easy acces from outside, media server, download server and many more functions.
> I know it can sound like witchcraft but it works. Or we can go back to polaroid


It’s not my only storage the _problem_ with this specific phone is the lightning port is not functioning to transfer data so I cannot get the photos and videos off the phone. So now it’s full and slower then ever. Apple no longer replaces the phone at the apple store near me they want to send it off for repair. My only pics of my kids and family adventures over the last 11 months are too important to give to apple.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

rmenergy said:


> 5se was a 6S in a 5 case.


I can’t seem to locate any information about that model. The 2016 SE is all that comes up.


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## ItsonlyaHONDA (Sep 9, 2021)

Pay a 1 month sub for storage. Sync to the cloud, then transfer to your computer. Then Cancel the subscription.


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## kiklop32 (Oct 28, 2021)

MobilePioneer said:


> It’s not my only storage the _problem_ with this specific phone is the lightning port is not functioning to transfer data so I cannot get the photos and videos off the phone. So now it’s full and slower then ever. Apple no longer replaces the phone at the apple store near me they want to send it off for repair. My only pics of my kids and family adventures over the last 11 months are too important to give to apple.


Yeah Apple. I can transfer all datas via WiFi no need for port.


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## MobilePioneer (2 mo ago)

kiklop32 said:


> Yeah Apple. I can transfer all datas via WiFi no need for port.


I’m old I guess I need to figure this out.


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

MobilePioneer said:


> I can’t seem to locate any information about that model. The 2016 SE is all that comes up.


iPhone 5se: A New 4-inch iPhone for 2016 (macrumors.com)


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## yobbo7 (9 mo ago)

rmenergy said:


> Steve Jobs died & their products went to crap.


And yet somehow they still have arguably the best phone on the market and Mac hardware is more competitive than it has ever been.


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

yobbo7 said:


> And yet somehow they still have arguably the best phone on the market and Mac hardware is more competitive than it has ever been.


Doesn't take away from the fact that their products don't perform as they used to. I've been using Apple since the early '00's, my wife has since the '80's. She's a huge Apple fangirl(graphic designer from Santa Clara so makes sense) but will readily admit their products don't last as long, perform as well(in comparison to the competition) & aren't as seamless with one another's integration as they used to be. They act as though the testing is happening in real-time instead of being vetted properly prior to release.


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## GlockandRoll (Oct 2, 2009)

The advanced radio concept totally makes sense, with touch screens to control HVAC, diagnostics, etc... but I get it. 
Luckily, newer cars have MUCH better audio these days than when I was in high school and worked part-time as a pro installer in college in the 90s. 

Take the good with the bad, using my ram crew-cab truck and my wife's Yukon as an example.

Both have stock sound systems, and both are - honestly - pretty damned good because of higher-powered amplifiers, better speakers, and better speaker locations. The ram has Alpine and the Yukon has BOSE. 

In both of our vehicles, if I wanted to improve the sound, I'd add a pair of angeled surface mount tweeters into the a-pillars and a powered sub, and that's it.


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## ajnuzzi (7 mo ago)

I’ve got a 2018 Silverado and am glad that there is an android unit offered to replace the giant gaping hole in the dash. My linkswell gen v has a 12” screen and encompasses the radio along with all the Hvac controls and a few other of the trucks systems. Pretty neat that they were able to integrate all that in an aftermarket unit if you ask me. Unfortunately for the next gen silverados GM has locked the system so that no aftermarket radio will work. I’m gonna keep this truck as long as I possibly can because when you get used to having Netflix, Hulu, YouTube tv, Nintendo emulators, etc in your vehicle I really won’t enjoy it as much without it!


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## rmenergy (Feb 15, 2009)

ajnuzzi said:


> I’ve got a 2018 Silverado and am glad that there is an android unit offered to replace the giant gaping hole in the dash. My linkswell gen v has a 12” screen and encompasses the radio along with all the Hvac controls and a few other of the trucks systems. Pretty neat that they were able to integrate all that in an aftermarket unit if you ask me. Unfortunately for the next gen silverados GM has locked the system so that no aftermarket radio will work. I’m gonna keep this truck as long as I possibly can because when you get used to having Netflix, Hulu, YouTube tv, Nintendo emulators, etc in your vehicle I really won’t enjoy it as much without it!
> View attachment 354305
> 
> View attachment 354304


Those are the exact setups I avoid at all costs. Different strokes for different folks. I’ll stick with outdated CD players.


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