# I'm so confused - new Vanagon system



## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Greetings,
I have tried for several years to make some decisions on upgrading the minimal system in my Vanagon. However, I get about a week into the reading and get so overwhelmed I just give up. I am a DIY only kind of guy and cannot really afford to pay someone else to do it for me. 

That said I'm not looking to rattle the tags just want enough volume and clarity that we can enjoy a wide variety of music and audio books. Obviously I don't want to go all crazy since it is a Vanagon 4WD w/ TDI and oversize tires = noisy beast. 

Currrently I have Pioneer DEH-P350 and a pair of MB quart 4" in the front and OEM 4" in back. I want to keep the HU and add amp, sub, and frt and rear speakers. The MB Quarts may be trash as they have taken a beating from running straight of the HU. 

Budget - This is a hitch I run into as I want to spend enough to make it work but not overkill it. Could it be done for $500. Dunno what it takes to make the kind of sound I'm talking about.

I want to keep the sub and amp as stealth as possible. However, I'd rather not rumble a passenger seat with the sub if that happens with the sub under a seat. Seems that could get annoying for whoever has the hot seat, right?
I have a descent home system so I understand the importance of efficiency, THD, and the like but with soooo many options I get totally lost. 

OK, I think that covers it. Many thanks ahead of time.

Michael


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Welcome to DIYMA Michael!

At that price you can do it if you pick up some used goodies. Probably 6.5" components in the front and a subwoofer would be a good thing to do, all powered by 1 4 channel amp. 

What are stock mounting locations like?
Do you have a center console between front seats, any pictures of that area? A lot of people with pick ups would do single down firing subwoofer there...

Diesel 4x4? = DOPE!


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## Pillow (Nov 14, 2009)

Canadian Synchro Diesel or conversion? Nice either way.

Components would be sweet if you can swing it mounting wise in the front. 

Rear... Depends. Are you entertaining passengers? If not just stick with a front stage. 

Sub, can get interesting depending on your van layout. Under the rear bench seats firing forward? Maybe 2 10"s or 2-4 8"s in that scenario. A single 12" in the back in a removable box. A couple 6" subs under the driver and passenger seat? I would need to know the interior layout to be more helpful (daycamper - westi - blah blah).


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Mless5 said:


> Welcome to DIYMA Michael!
> 
> At that price you can do it if you pick up some used goodies. Probably 6.5" components in the front and a subwoofer would be a good thing to do, all powered by 1 4 channel amp.
> 
> ...


As I understand it the fronts can be opened up to take 6's but they need to be fairly flat/flush as the crank has to pass over the grille. The rears were in the AC duct but the AC is out so I need to relocate. I thought to cut into the rear cards. That would put the speakers at belly level. Will that be an issue for the kids?

I do not currently have console but do not mind building a sub enclosure. 

To have fronts, rears and sub does one need more amp channels?

I'm hoping for specifics like brand and size (amp and speakers) so I can get as much bang for buck. If not those specifics the some idea how to evaluate quality vs price.

Thanks for the reply
Michael


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## Pillow (Nov 14, 2009)

Figure out what SIZE speakers you can use then worry about the amps. Not trying to yell there, we just need to know what we have to work with.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Pillow said:


> Canadian Synchro Diesel or conversion? Nice either way.
> 
> Components would be sweet if you can swing it mounting wise in the front.
> 
> ...


Pillow,
It's a conversion money pit. 98 Jetta diesel, custom turbo, Cummins 4BT mechanical pump, big injectors, air/water IC. Goes real nice but costs.......

Fronts: What is needed to mount components up front? I can do most anything if I have a clue what I'm supposed to do.

Rears: Yeah, the kids are always there and want to hear so I really do need rears.

Sub: I DO NOT need/want to 'bump'. Just want to fill the bottom. If one sub will do the job, that's good for me. The two ideals I'd shoot for are first stealth and second permanent mounting. If it/they are under the front seat will we be annoyed? If mounting can't easily be permanent, a big box sitting some where is not ideal but would be best under the middle seat or between the front seats.

Am I asking too much on a ~$500 budget? Got specifics for me to hunt for?

Thanks again!!
Michael


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## Pillow (Nov 14, 2009)

$500 is tight but possible. Work the DIY classifieds once you know what fits. 

... I never owned a Vanagon so I am not sure what is possible in the doors and rear. Other than that I have owned all other types of busses! Euro, Bay, Splits... 

The conversion sounds sweet! Mmmm 4BT pumps! 30 PSI?  

The coolest thing on the drag strip I have seen in a while is a plain jane Syncro with a WRX conversion! Killed loads of other VWs before people caught on... Disqualified for not having a VW motor! Tell that to the guys running Autocraft cases, I see no VW PN!

Take Care


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Pillow said:


> Figure out what SIZE speakers you can use then worry about the amps. Not trying to yell there, we just need to know what we have to work with.


Sorry forgot to mention it is a standard 7-pass van with a fold out bed.

This doesn't look real good but gives an idea of what the front scene looks like with 6's and tweets on the dash.

TheSamba.com :: View topic - No more window-crank spacers!

I'm just so ignorant about this but really want to improve the sound as I drag my family all over the west without much entertainment and don't want to waste money.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I don't know how loud you want it, but a 5ch might work for you. Go used on the amps to save cash. My kicker 700.5 would work great for daily driver and the class D sub section is more efficient I only have a 5ga wire to it, and there are others. Get an amp with a sub control so you can adjust the sub on the fly, that can be handy so you can turn it down with passengers. Get the largest speaker you can fit in front, not cheap junk, that will be the most important thing for good sound. Put some deadening and if you can a wood baffle when you mount it. If you shop epay for a while you can find deals on nice stuff even drivers. I've bought a bunch of used stuff over the years with few problems.

Try to develop a size for a sub box, and everyone can figure out what to put in it. Just my .02 but if I were cutting speakers in the back I'd try to drop 6x9 in there. A good coax can give a lot of midbass, and sound as good as anything else for passengers. Fade them out if you don't need, but they will put out more if you do need them, usually the price is right for what is mostly an 8" mid. I'd work on some larger good sounding front speakers you can fit in there first, that is most important. Come to think of it there are 8" coax out there now. That is, if you can go big.

Diesel, nice, I like oil burners.

I would guess you could do a 5ch or even sub and 4ch for around $100 used and shipped, give or take. My factory refurb was under 180 shipped. I would try a single 12" maybe or set of 10s minimum as you usually don't get much gain in a van. I'd get 6.5 or comps I liked for the front, some good brand but lower rms 6x9 for the rear if depth is not an issue, amp wire kit, and that is how I'd attack it if mine for a daily system....and not knowing details.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

sqshoestring said:


> I don't know how loud you want it, but a 5ch might work for you. Go used on the amps to save cash. My kicker 700.5 would work great for daily driver and the class D sub section is more efficient I only have a 5ga wire to it, and there are others. Get an amp with a sub control so you can adjust the sub on the fly, that can be handy so you can turn it down with passengers. Get the largest speaker you can fit in front, not cheap junk, that will be the most important thing for good sound. Put some deadening and if you can a wood baffle when you mount it. If you shop epay for a while you can find deals on nice stuff even drivers. I've bought a bunch of used stuff over the years with few problems.
> 
> Try to develop a size for a sub box, and everyone can figure out what to put in it. Just my .02 but if I were cutting speakers in the back I'd try to drop 6x9 in there. A good coax can give a lot of midbass, and sound as good as anything else for passengers. Fade them out if you don't need, but they will put out more if you do need them, usually the price is right for what is mostly an 8" mid. I'd work on some larger good sounding front speakers you can fit in there first, that is most important. Come to think of it there are 8" coax out there now. That is, if you can go big.
> 
> ...


There are soooo many options its hard to know, on the short side of knowledge, what is not 'cheap junk'. Would you mind giving me some brands to start looking at. I'm not at all interested in overly loud - too old, too married, too many kids. What's pro/con of 6.5 vs comps. Will a smaller comp do the job of a 6.5?


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Comp just means component, or separate woofer and tweeter. If you want coax or component, that is up to you and what you want to install. Coax of course have the tweeter in or above the woofer, one piece. That component woofer is called a mid here in audioland. Good place to start is hit a best buy/etc and listen to the stuff on the boards, look at the prices. I tend to stick with known brands if I buy something like that, pioneer, alpine, infinity, polk, etc. There are some good picks for budget comps here in threads like the ppi, lanzar opti, heck I'd have to look for the rest. If you go more money then there are some other brands people are familiar with here. Sounds like you want nice on a budget, the mass brands should do the job. Sometimes you can find speaker shootouts and reviews on particular ones, problem I always had is they change models often.

First thing is you need to know the size speakers you can fit. Deal with size is the larger makes more bass unless you get real expensive. That ends up being midbass you need to blend with the sub. So the overall quality of the sound is usually less if you go under a 6.5 woofer (mid) that can reach down to the sub. 6.5 would be great for the fronts by the looks of your doors, its the rears I would go larger yet if you are cutting holes anyway. The second rear set can also help the bass, can give a fuller sound if you are going to run rears. Running the 4s you have in the rear for example, does nothing for you. Far as selecting a brand of speaker, about all you can do is listen to friend's cars and go to stores, then read reviews. Product selection is full of that stuff here, though some here are more into high dollar and/or custom drivers like peerless for example....building systems piece by piece. I know there was a thread about budget drivers a while back. Some people like a particular brand because they have a certain sound. Years ago Kenwoods always had bright tweeters, and I didn't like them. But I was putting boat stereos in and used them all the time because you needed that in the open space. I have not heard a kenwood in some time though, have no idea what they have these days.


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## clbolt (Jan 9, 2008)

I'll throw this out there as a good 4-channel amp at a bargain basement price:
ECLIPSE EMPLIFIER EA4100 EA 4100 Used : eBay Motors (item 390147194984 end time Feb-22-10 10:33:46 PST)
He's a reliable seller, and has some incredible deals on head units if you need one.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

clbolt said:


> I'll throw this out there as a good 4-channel amp at a bargain basement price:
> ECLIPSE EMPLIFIER EA4100 EA 4100 Used : eBay Motors (item 390147194984 end time Feb-22-10 10:33:46 PST)
> He's a reliable seller, and has some incredible deals on head units if you need one.


That does look like a good deal!! If I'm catching what's pitched, that will power the front and rear. Is it proper to get second (he has several) to power the sub or ?


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Cbolt,
Tell me about the AVI sub you have for sale. How much power does it need? Is a single 10 enough for my purposes? I like hand built in North America! I'm not too far from you right now- hangin in East Texas for a few weeks.
Michael


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

This looks pretty cool but eats a big chunk of the 'proposed' budget.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...n-555-amp-5-channels-old-school-goodness.html

Begs the question: If a certain budget is desired, what percentage should be spent on each area? Another way too say it - More $ on the amp or more on the drivers?


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

The drivers will affect your sound the most, the sub less. A large factor for the sub is the enclosure you use, mostly a better sub will perform in a smaller enclosure or take more power, distort less at high xmax, etc. So it needs to meet your needs....which is the size enclosure you determine and power level you want to be at, and how low you want it to play.

I would get the quality you desire in the front drivers as #1, though note that spending a lot does not automatically mean better quality or that they fit the install better. If you stay away from no-name brands it is very likely you can find something at a reasonable price that performs great. If your goal is to get the stuff in the car and not screw around too much, I would look at a good known brands of comps or coax what ever way you want to go. The sound I like, I wanted more low bass and clear but smooth and not at all screechy tweeters when I auditioned speakers. I liked soft dome tweeters in comps but others sometimes worked. You have to gauge how close and the angle they will be in your car, consider that when you listen to them in a store. It is a guessing game. It looks like you need flat grills, or will need to find something to use.

Amps are much the same, the actual differences lie mostly in durability and other features. Even cheap amps today have good sonic quality, but may be more prone to electrical noise, break much faster, things like that. About the same rules apply; you get one large enough to do what you want and a moderate budget will get you a good amp. A huge budget will get you a very well built amp that is likely underrated but will change the sound little. Amps are like toasters today: they all toast good to excellent but other differences are wide ranging.

The larger the box for your subs the cheaper the subs can be, in general, for the same output.


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## Greg S (Oct 21, 2009)

hackaphile said:


> Sorry forgot to mention it is a standard 7-pass van with a fold out bed.
> 
> This doesn't look real good but gives an idea of what the front scene looks like with 6's and tweets on the dash.
> 
> ...



I remember those doors, worked on too many of them over the years. If you are willing to try your hand at some fabrication I used to have good luck putting speakers in pods in the lower portion of the door angled back and up toward the seats. It does tend to draw the image down but you don't have the dash blocking the speaker. You can also use the stock location for a tweeter if you do go with component speaker. If you don't mind not being able to go between the front seats it is actually a great place for a down-firing sub. You can either just build a box there or do like I did with my Odyssey and build a center console with cup holders and a usable top surface.

Link here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/70718-2002-honda-odyssey.html

I would say a single 10" would be plenty if you are doing it up front between the seats and you wouldn't have it in the back with the kids where you would have to have it turned up so you could hear it.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Greg S said:


> I remember those doors, worked on too many of them over the years. If you are willing to try your hand at some fabrication I used to have good luck putting speakers in pods in the lower portion of the door angled back and up toward the seats. It does tend to draw the image down but you don't have the dash blocking the speaker. You can also use the stock location for a tweeter if you do go with component speaker. If you don't mind not being able to go between the front seats it is actually a great place for a down-firing sub. You can either just build a box there or do like I did with my Odyssey and build a center console with cup holders and a usable top surface.
> 
> Link here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/70718-2002-honda-odyssey.html
> 
> I would say a single 10" would be plenty if you are doing it up front between the seats and you wouldn't have it in the back with the kids where you would have to have it turned up so you could hear it.


Greg, 
Thanks for joining in! Seems there are some real challenges in the Vanagon install. No, I won't shy away from building something. If for no other reason than I need something else to think about than work and the demise of the Oregon economy. 

Wow, that's quite a console!! Not sure I could do something that nice. Are the finishing materials available in small quantities?

I'm interested in the lower door pods you mentioned. Is that another custom item or are they for sale somewhere. I like the idea of components as it seems they could do a better job of getting the front sound to our ears. What size drivers were you putting in the lower located pods?

Did you do for location and size of the rears? 

Michael


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)

Pics of the Vanagon?... I always wanted a westfalia synchro camper!


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Ziggy said:


> Pics of the Vanagon?... I always wanted a westfalia synchro camper!


Here you go. SugarCube isn't much too look at until you get into the powerplant and running gear. I've hauled 2000# of concrete to a job and sheet goods are easily loaded and unloaded. I've borne the VW curse all my life. Wish it would stop!! 

I would like a westy syncro too but they have gotten so pricey in the last few years I fear they are out of reach.

Michael


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## Greg S (Oct 21, 2009)

hackaphile said:


> Greg,
> Are the finishing materials available in small quantities?


Yes, you can pick up small packs of fiberglass at most autoparts stores. As for the resin I would stay away from the Bondo stuff at the autoparts stores, if you have a boat builder in the area try to get some supplies from them. Alternatively a more local source when you are back in Oregon is TAP Plastics



hackaphile said:


> I'm interested in the lower door pods you mentioned. Is that another custom item or are they for sale somewhere. I like the idea of components as it seems they could do a better job of getting the front sound to our ears. What size drivers were you putting in the lower located pods?


Most of the time I was doing 6.5s in the doors. Did a few 6x9s if no sub was being done. I prefer not to since I'm not preferential to oval speakers for sound quality. As for the pods in some cases it was just done with plastic spacers, others with wood. Now I would do them with fiberglass but these were all done 10-15 years ago when it was less common. You will want to sound deaden the panel as the bare metal down there likes to resonate.



hackaphile said:


> Did you do for location and size of the rears?


I honestly don't remember what was done for the rears, it's been too long. If you have some pics of the rear interior I could probably remember, or at least come up with some ideas.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Off topic. I know a guy here in MA who is a vw nut, lmk if you need anything, I'll give you his #.


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## don_chuwish (Oct 29, 2009)

Given the budget, and the way budgets tend to be "for now" by nature, I'd say pace yourself. Maybe concentrate on the front components and amplifier to start. Leave the subwoofer and that extra expense/complexity for later - or not at all if you're happy.

A good 6.5" woofer as part of a component set can actually produce pretty good bass so you may just be content with that upgrade. I'm certainly not a mobile audio expert, but I am a heck of a cheapskate. So some suggestions on pacing this project:

1. Move the MB Quart pair to the back (are they 2 way, tweeter and mid?), replacing the OEM speakers.
2. Install reasonably priced (used maybe?) components up front, largest mid you can fit
Stop and listen for a month or so, you're at maybe $100-$150 at this point. Still want better?

3. Find a used 4 channel amplifier to power both front and rear, maybe another $150-$200 plus wiring (which adds up quick).
Stop and listen for a month or so. Still think you want a sub? Has the budget recovered a bit by now?

4. Get a sub in a box, 10" or 12" whatever the budget and space dictates.
4b. Take the two rear channels of the amp and bridge them to power the sub. Power the two rear speakers directly from the Pioneer head unit.

Just watch out for the power rating on the amp, has to be enough to power the possible future sub if bridged, but not cost too much or be gross overkill on the MB Quarts.

Take my advice for what it is, cheapskate novice at best! Hopefully others will corroborate and/or fill in the blanks.

- D


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Mless5 said:


> Off topic. I know a guy here in MA who is a vw nut, lmk if you need anything, I'll give you his #.


Is he an audio and VW nut? Is his name Karl?


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

No just vws... Jon.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

Since there has not been a size given or I missed it, here are three sets of speakers that were regarded very highly for the money. 60-80 bucks for the set. Have ordered from this store before and I believe they even have ties with Amazon.

5 1/4" RSD5cs - Phoenix Gold 5.25" Component Speaker System

6" RSD6cs - Phoenix Gold 6" Component Speaker System

61/2 RSD65cs - Phoenix Gold 6.5" Component Speaker System

Amplifiers are a commodity now. Like said before decent stuff can be had very reasonably. Look at the classified section. I like the previous post of a 4 channel with 2 channels running the fronts and the other 2 channels bridged to run a sub/s. I am partial to Sundown because I have had very good luck with them. There is a closeout on the 50.4. It has a nice crossover circuit and puts out rated+ power. 

SAX-50.4 Close Out Continued - SSA Car Audio Forum

EA4100 - Eclipse 4 Ch 400 Watt Amplifier

Subwoofer is a pretty easy thing because it is so easy to add bass to a vehicle. Although you have a Van which does not benefit nearly as well as a car from cabin gain. I would use at least a 10 if not a 12. Portedenclosure to get the most from the power on hand. Expect to pay under a 100 for a decent woofer.

Good luck! Hope my suggestions help.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

I like the look of the Sundown 50.4 except that I want to run 4 channel plus sub. Seems that with the space constraints of the Vanagon a single 5-6 channel is going to serve better. 

I've a little scratch in hand now and so am looking more seriously. No one really commented about the SS Rubicon 555 I asked about. This is where the options get confusing. Also inquired after an ADS PH30.2. ??????????????

Decided to do 6 or 6.5 comps up front and a looking at sensitivity as one of my prime factors. The Phoenix Gold looks good except I see other with better efficiency numbers. At home I run Adcom power thru Klipsch LaScalas so I may be to hung up on efficiency. Anyway I'm going to build some pods to relocate the speakers to the lower part of the door. Is there any thing I could do wrong to make otherwise good speaker sound bad because of the pod design?

Michael


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## Greg S (Oct 21, 2009)

Sure, making car audio sound good is dificult. You're going to have reflections, cancelations, and resonances just because of the listening environment. Imaging is also hard to get right without a lot of work. 

As for effeciency, don't get too hung up on it. Almost nothing is going to have the effeciency of LaScala's. Power is cheap for car audio. Power handling and frequency response is more important here than effeciency.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Gents,
I woke up this morning considering all this and wondered how necessary the sub is. This is such a utilitarian minded system that seems could be easier and, maybe, cheaper if I skipped the sub. Can the absence of the sub be compensated for by a bit more size and/or quality on the amp and 6.5 comps front and rear? I'm sure it cannot be 'the same' but there are already so many hurdles to SQ in this rig. Law of diminishing returns play any role here?

Thanks again to all 
Michael

Michael


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

don_chuwish said:


> Given the budget, and the way budgets tend to be "for now" by nature, I'd say pace yourself. Maybe concentrate on the front components and amplifier to start. Leave the subwoofer and that extra expense/complexity for later - or not at all if you're happy.
> 
> A good 6.5" woofer as part of a component set can actually produce pretty good bass so you may just be content with that upgrade. I'm certainly not a mobile audio expert, but I am a heck of a cheapskate. So some suggestions on pacing this project:
> 
> ...


After I sent the previous post, I went back and reread Don's post and see that is what he was suggesting. Thought I so clever....lol! My question still is can a I get to a SG/volume where we can enjoy the sound over the road/vehicle noise?


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## don_chuwish (Oct 29, 2009)

LOL! Unless someone has experience with the vehicle it may be tough to say. But it certainly wouldn't hurt to just take it in stages and see. At least you won't be pulling anything out to redo as wasted effort and expense.

- D


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## Greg S (Oct 21, 2009)

I'd say go ahead and do it in stages, it won't hurt and you get to enjoy the incremental improvements. You'll probably end up needing a sub as Vanagons are just plain noisy vehicles. Lots of sound deadener is going to be your friend.


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## cubdenno (Nov 10, 2007)

don_chuwish said:


> LOL! Unless someone has experience with the vehicle it may be tough to say. But it certainly wouldn't hurt to just take it in stages and see. At least you won't be pulling anything out to redo as wasted effort and expense.
> 
> - D


X2. Great advice


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

My only reservation is buying the 4 channel and the realizing the sub is necessary and having to alter the plan. Usually ends up costing me. I'm not a total tightwad I just have alot of bread and not enough butter. 

Alrighty then, I'm going to proceed sans sub. Have been looking at these:

CTX65CS - Image Dynamics 6.5" Component Speaker System

With out sub and extra power it requires, I could get into two pairs of these and a descent power source fairly close to budget. Haven't done hard math just back of the eyelids stuff. I assume there will be some hidden costs I'm missing due to lack of experience. However, seems a place to start the selection process. Good speakers or have I got the wrong tree again?


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## jmhinkle (Dec 24, 2009)

I've got a PCX5800 that would take care of your whole system in one shot. It's in the for sale section and I'll take a pretty low offer to get rid of it. I'll be moving at the end of the month and have to parts ways with a bunch of stuff I've acquired recently.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

G'day fellas,
Here what I've decided to do. I want a US made 4ch Soundstream to power the two pair of comps.

CTX65CS - Image Dynamics 6.5" Component Speaker System

Does this seem to be a workable setup?

I tried to do a WTB for the SS but don't have 50 posts. :-( I guess I'll have to keep waiting til one pops up in the classifieds. Any model of old SS that is particularly good at ~ 100w x 4?

Question is what is the overall diameter of a 6.5 speaker? Just want to be sure I can fit them in the pods I'm going make for low mounting on the front door. 


Really appreciate all the help!!
Michael


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)

That's a good comp choice... I believe the ID set comes with the stencils when you buy them new. You should have the speakers in hand, or the stencil to mock something up yourself.
Make them larger on the O.D.
Honestly, I just called up eD and had them cut me some mdf rings when I was ordering something else... I just told them make 'em for 6.5 speakers and it worked out.
Also, some people even make them out of the thicker, plastic cutting boards...
(the thing you chop vegies with a knife over)


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Ziggy said:


> That's a good comp choice... I believe the ID set comes with the stencils when you buy them new. You should have the speakers in hand, or the stencil to mock something up yourself.
> Make them larger on the O.D.
> Honestly, I just called up eD and had them cut me some mdf rings when I was ordering something else... I just told them make 'em for 6.5 speakers and it worked out.
> Also, some people even make them out of the thicker, plastic cutting boards...
> (the thing you chop vegies with a knife over)



Who/what is eD?

I should rephrase - What exactly does 6.5 refer to? Cone dia or Overall mounting dia?


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Just saw a poll where the IDs I mentioned were slightly less preferred to the Hertx HLS 165. What about that?


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

hackaphile said:


> Who/what is eD?


Ahha - elemental designs


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)

Hertz is good **** too... I also forgot your were making pods -so you may want to think about a recessed mount design. The rings I had made were for mounting them in my doors.
(like the one in post #31's avitar)
Are you planing on glassing these pods?...


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Ziggy said:


> Hertz is good **** too... I also forgot your were making pods -so you may want to think about a recessed mount design. The rings I had made were for mounting them in my doors.
> (like the one in post #31's avitar)
> Are you planing on glassing these pods?...


I'm not sure how I'm going to do the pod thing. Still looking into door pod design. I was thinking to laminate 'rings' together and then mill the wedge and interior space to accommodate the desired angle and room inside for the speaker. This is my best idea so far. Other options?

What is the deal with glassing? What does it accomplish for the install? Is it best? Are there other finishing options? 

I like the idea of recessing the back end into the door. What I'm trying accomplish, with the pods, is to direct the driver up a little. The location I'm going for is low in the door and with an angle up would send the sound across the cabin the the person in the opposite seat.

Just a hackaphile's mental meanderings.........I'm enjoying the process.
Michael


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

So the Soundstream Rubicon 555 (5 chan) is available to me. So, being rated at 40 x 4 how will it work with the ID 6.5 comps (rated at 100rms). Seller is offering a Eclipse 12 with the deal. $300 Hmmmm?


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## don_chuwish (Oct 29, 2009)

Hate to say it but 40x4 sounds way underpowered. Most people here would recommend going OVER the speakers' RMS rating. I'm slightly under with my subwoofer (rated 250, given 175) and over on the front comps (rated 85, given 150).

- D


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

don_chuwish said:


> Hate to say it but 40x4 sounds way underpowered. Most people here would recommend going OVER the speakers' RMS rating. I'm slightly under with my subwoofer (rated 250, given 175) and over on the front comps (rated 85, given 150).
> 
> - D


Just when I think I'm getting my head straight..... Snap! BTW this is usually when I throw my hands up and give the money to the wife for whatever.

So what good are power ratings? How much is too much? I assume 'too little' will affect volume... Anything else... SQ or ?? More coffee!!!!!

So, let's just say I'm going with the IDs mentioned above. As an aside I have been thinking about Hertz 165s but that's another story. Either way they both have a rms 100w rating. I've got in my sights a SS w/ 40x4 + 150x1 AND another SS w/ 75x4. I've not seen any yet with 100x4 but if that is what I need I'll keep looking. Everything I read says the US made amps are more desirable so that is what I'm focusing on.

In limbo,
Michael


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)

I'm with Don, Hack... 
I would look for something that does at least 100x4 @4ohm...
PG Xenon amps have 100x4 and 200x4 that make rated power at 2 or 4 ohm...
I think it's a regulated power supply that makes it so.

I like the PG Xenon 200.4 -nothing wrong with having the headroom... look around for them here and on ebay.


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## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

40 watts for fronts and rears, with a sub, will be fine
40 watts for fronts and rears, without a sub, may leave you wanting more, but would also probably be fine. 

That soundstream 5 channel is a nice amp, and would prob make your vanagon sing.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Ziggy said:


> I'm with Don, Hack...
> I would look for something that does at least 100x4 @4ohm...
> PG Xenon amps have 100x4 and 200x4 that make rated power at 2 or 4 ohm...
> I think it's a regulated power supply that makes it so.
> ...


Don, Ziggy,.....,
What is the most significant result of running well below driver rms? 
Michael


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

I just need to stop looking at drivers. Just noticed the Morel Tempo 6X and Zapco iforce i-6.2.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

DaveRulz said:


> 40 watts for fronts and rears, with a sub, will be fine
> 40 watts for fronts and rears, without a sub, may leave you wanting more, but would also probably be fine.
> 
> That soundstream 5 channel is a nice amp, and would prob make your vanagon sing.


leave me wanting more what?

The vehicle will likely not ever see HIGH volume. Just solid covering of road/vehicle noise is what we're after. I'd really like to do it without the sub just because of the space issues. I know that sounds weird given we are discussing a Vanagon. Difficulty is we travel alot and I use the rig for utility hauling. That why I wanted a stealth install so I don't have deal with a sub box in any of the cargo spaces. If the sub becomes necessary it will go in between the front seats in a console. Nevertheless I'd ultimately prefer no sub.


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## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

leave you wanting more output. 

40 watts is more than sufficient to drive speakers to loud levels above 100hz. But as you need more excursion to produce the lower frequencies, you need more power to move the speakers. 

without a sub, you may find the sound lacking with 40 watts, leaving you wanting more. With a sub it would be moot as the larger driver could handle the lower frequencies. 

That being said, if you are a moderate listener, I wouldn't worry about it at all, as you'll never know the difference between 40 watts and 100 unless you are running the system at full tilt.


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## don_chuwish (Oct 29, 2009)

I humbly defer to DaveRulz. I sense you're falling into analysis paralysis (I've been there, I know!). If you've got a line on a good deal, give it a shot.

- D


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

One issue that was mentioned is the challenge of producing bass in the relatively large cabin of the van. So the comment about needing more power for the lower freqs and lack of low end potential of the van make me think a bit more power might be wise. 

Since I'm going to try as much as possible to go sans sub, I'm reading up on which driver in my price range (<~$200) will give the best low end.

Back on track with the amp.

Back to the drivers.

Michael


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Ziggy said:


> I'm with Don, Hack...
> I would look for something that does at least 100x4 @4ohm...
> PG Xenon amps have 100x4 and 200x4 that make rated power at 2 or 4 ohm...
> I think it's a regulated power supply that makes it so.
> ...


I'm in the middle of looking at the PG Xenons. I'm confused about putting a 200 x 4 through 100rms drivers. What keeps the 200 per ch from burning the 
drivers.


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## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

proper set up and someone who is NOT an adolescent behind the volume control.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Does that mean a slip and a blip on the volume is going to cash out the drivers? Its a zoo in the van sometimes - little kids (soon to be that adolescent you spoke of), dog, etc.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Trying to find some measurements for the PG amps. No manuals anywhere?????

Need to be sure it will fit the spot I have for it.

FOUND IT!! Sorry!


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## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

hackaphile said:


> Does that mean a slip and a blip on the volume is going to cash out the drivers? Its a zoo in the van sometimes - little kids (soon to be that adolescent you spoke of), dog, etc.


No, it would have to be a REALLY big slip, but that could happen with whatever amp you use.


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)

What siz spot? 
Take a pic of the spot you have in mind... measure it... I happen to have the PG's Xenons right next to me (Not4Sale)...
Not a lot of folks have Vanagon builds, so anything to help us make suggestions. I had a GTI wabbit once, but never built a system for it.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Ziggy said:


> What siz spot?
> Take a pic of the spot you have in mind... measure it... I happen to have the PG's Xenons right next to me (Not4Sale)...
> Not a lot of folks have Vanagon builds, so anything to help us make suggestions. I had a GTI wabbit once, but never built a system for it.


Under the passenger seat I have a tight 16" of length because of the battery. Under the drivers seat there's ~24". So everything I'm looking at will not fit under the passenger seat.

At this point I'm gawking at an old SS r644s and either of the PG's. SS is 75x4 (4 ohm) and you know the PG story.

Any opinion about Zapco i-force i-6.2 6.5 comps? Love the sensitivity! IIRC 80w RMS.


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)

maybe look for one of these blaupunkt va4100: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/74669-wtb-4x100-good-amplifier.html#post949738


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Ziggy said:


> maybe look for one of these blaupunkt va4100: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/74669-wtb-4x100-good-amplifier.html#post949738


I see the PG xenon 200.4 is 22 in length, right? I have room for that and of course the 100.4 as well. There are both on eBay right now. 200.4: used for 230 obo and BNIB 299 obo. Only one 100.4 used for 200 obo. I'm just going to have to buy 'something' and get on with it. This is driving me crazy!!!

Humor me. Why do you like the PG Xenon?

I found a audio shop in Tyler, TX where I can go here some drivers so I may try to do that. He has the ID's I like for 180 and I'll have them in hand so I can start on the pods.


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## MaXaZoR (Apr 1, 2007)

Hey,
I saw your PM to me about the A/D/S PH30.2, while of course I'm going to market my own gear I'm selling, it's still for sale. But for your budget, I think this amp would break it. While it will run either
75W x 6 @ 4 ohms 
OR
110W x 4 + 150W x 2 @ 2 ohms 
OR
220W x 2 + 300W x 1 @ 4 ohms

Which makes it very flexiable with built in crossovers, I can't recommend it to you with your budget. Here's what I do recommend, spend your money now on a really good pair of components, hertz, dynaudio, HAT's. 

Secondly, start by running passive setup, this will give you time to read up find strength's and weaknesses in your setup, secondly look for a flexiable amp, if you want to upgrade in the future.


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)

hackaphile said:


> Humor me. Why do you like the PG Xenon?


A friend of mine "Hillbilly SQ" turned me on to them... He's used them for some time now, and has never had a problem out of them... 
I went on a collection spree, and bought some from other members here when they were avail at a good price... I got a 100.4 and a 200.4, and a 400.1 and a 800.1.
I'm not using them now, as I haven't had any problems with my eD nine.5.
But my Xenons are not for sale... Fact, I wish I'd picked up another 200.4.

Take a close look at your measurements and see how you would mount it and where your connections will be... The 200.4 is quite large and squarish... Since I have a pickup truck, I just mount amps on my back wall -never had to think about under the seat.

Vanagon is easy prey for break ins, I would think...


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

MaXaZoR said:


> Hey,
> I saw your PM to me about the A/D/S PH30.2, while of course I'm going to market my own gear I'm selling, it's still for sale. But for your budget, I think this amp would break it. While it will run either
> 75W x 6 @ 4 ohms
> OR
> ...


Give me a point of reference - how much?

Since I have nothing, I'm trying to be flexible; looking toward the end result being as good as possible even if I have to wait for the completion.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Ziggy said:


> A friend of mine "Hillbilly SQ" turned me on to them... He's used them for some time now, and has never had a problem out of them...
> I went on a collection spree, and bought some from other members here when they were avail at a good price... I got a 100.4 and a 200.4, and a 400.1 and a 800.1.
> I'm not using them now, as I haven't had any problems with my eD nine.5.
> But my Xenons are not for sale... Fact, I wish I'd picked up another 200.4.
> ...


Vanagon might be easy for break in BUT I refuse to worry about it! Steal the gear steal the car, Bah! I'll buy another! My concern is all about the this moment and right now I can't get past this purchase. LOL

Just measured. I have 22.5 x 13 x 4 under the driver's seat. The auction listing says the 200.4 measures 22 x 10.6 x 2.5. Seems there is enough sideways room for the connections. Length would be tight but should fit - I'd think.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

There is a kicker Kicker KX700.5 Car Amplifier. Used - eBay (item 380201880243 end time Feb-04-10 16:01:47 PST)
Is what I have it works fine for normal use. Those specs are wrong, CEA is 4x70/85rms at 4/2 ohms and the sub is 1x210/420rms. With the sub class D power is not bad, you can use a 5 or 4 gauge wire kit. Find a couple 4 ohm SVC 12s on sale and you would be set, plus your door drivers. Just suggestion if you want something that works well, don't care about roof shaking volume, is easier to install and wire/mount. Although my quad 12s IB will shake the roof of my car no problem on one. I have the older model, this one looks wider.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

I decided to step in slowly as that seemed to be sage. So I'll spend the same initial $ but have better gear.

So I think I got a good deal on a set of HAT Clarus C61.2. Listened to them at a shop yesterday and like the small company thing anyway.

Amp. Coming right up!


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## Ziggy (Nov 29, 2007)

I was thinking about your "pods" idea... I would rethink on trying to mount them in the doors, depending on your clearance... Seems like I recall older water cooled VW's having rather large or tall stacked baffles built out for the back of the speakers to clear the door's innards... At least see what it would take to mount them in the doors (although I think the factory locations are pretty low).

It's a give/take process when choosing gear, when ultimately it's "fitting" the best gear you want in your budget... 
Asking yourself: What amps have the power I want, and then will they fit in the place i have in mind?... same thing with the components... 
Regardless of the speakers you choose, your going to have to fab something to make them fit in the Vanagon -large baffle rings in the door or your pods...

It's just been so long since I been in one, that I can't be too helpful on placement suggestions... 
I was fortunate to have a vehicle to copycat another's build.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Amp on! Bought a old reference soundstream 604 on Ebay. Install stuff?


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Ziggy said:


> I was thinking about your "pods" idea... I would rethink on trying to mount them in the doors, depending on your clearance... Seems like I recall older water cooled VW's having rather large or tall stacked baffles built out for the back of the speakers to clear the door's innards... At least see what it would take to mount them in the doors (although I think the factory locations are pretty low).
> 
> It's a give/take process when choosing gear, when ultimately it's "fitting" the best gear you want in your budget...
> Asking yourself: What amps have the power I want, and then will they fit in the place i have in mind?... same thing with the components...
> ...


I'll try to go get picture so you can see what I'm thinking. Cooking right now have to be later.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

I love your choice of amp gear. 

if you posted some pictures this would be a really cool build log


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

BoostedNihilist said:


> I love your choice of amp gear.
> 
> if you posted some pictures this would be a really cool build log


Thanks. I liked the specs:

THD > 0.1%
S/N >100
SD >200

Thought it would be nice with the Clarus at sensitivity 90.8 db @ 2.83v.

Hope it won't get too warm.


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## trip'n (Nov 28, 2009)

i just finished my system on my 90 vanagon gl.......i have been saving and buying my stuff along the way...for a year now.....i went higher end( to me) and sound quality......if you have the a/c in back with the 4's.....i had 5.25 and tweets mounted up high .... in the front doors... low where the vinyl starts.. 6.75 and the tweets mounted up next to the factory 4"s
my system
deh-p800prs...xm and ipod .. controls
TS-C520PRS...rears...up high..crossovers..in a/c box
TS-C720PRS...front doors...crossovers under passenger seat
JL Audio HD900/5.....under passenger seat
JL Audio HO108RG-W3v3....sub....in rear firing towards the back
it really sounds gr8 to me....a whole 5/6 hours now.
i had it installed and it was a very clean custom look.....i would like to thank
shannon.. sales...didnt badmouth any of my gear...even though i didnt buy most of it from him....kinda classy..some guys should pay attention....and jay enge who i think did a sweeeeet install on vanna.......vanna white...my 90 vw vanagon .
thanks guys
this was not a hi jack thread....or a blow my horn.....ive looked and hunted for a year and have not found a vanagon thread.......other than vw samba
good luck and keep looking...yes i made some ebay purchases and all gear was on sale.

i would like to buy a set of ts-s101prs mid-high....if any 1 has


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

hackaphile said:


> I'll try to go get picture so you can see what I'm thinking. Cooking right now have to be later.


Here's a couple shots of the locations. I could put the mid on the lower part of the door with the tweet in the oem spot. I wonder though as I just read something that said tweet shouldn't be above or forward of the mid. On the drivers side I'm ok with loosing the map pocket. Or I might could fit them in the footwell next to the door.

In the back I'll just cut in to the panel for the MB Quarts from the front.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

a virtual blank canvas

with doors that huge I might consider a passive 3 way setup up front.


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## don_chuwish (Oct 29, 2009)

BoostedNihilist said:


> with doors that huge I might consider a passive 3 way setup up front.


Shush!! He's made a choice on speakers, don't mess with the poor guy's head any more!


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## Greg S (Oct 21, 2009)

Now I remember why I always had to set the speaker really low on these. If you do put the speaker where the map pocket is it will have to be spaced out to clear the limiter bar, as it runs pretty close to the inner door skin. With proper spacing and a lot of sound deadener those doors make a nice large chamer for the woofer. As for the tweeter I would not put it up in the stock location as it'll be very hard to balance the left and right sides with the un-equal path lengths between mid and tweeter. You would be better off placing it as close to the mid as possible and angling them up and back a little. The sound stage may be a little low but it will be more even.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

don_chuwish said:


> Shush!! He's made a choice on speakers, don't mess with the poor guy's head any more!


LOL! I was already thinking hmmmmmm. But then I came to and reminded myself this is a Vanagon and a loud one at that.

Now to focus on where to put things, how to construct the enclosures, and figuring out the wiring of everything. I was hoping I'd buy at least one item from a business so I could add install stuff to the order. However, both drivers and amp were Ebay so I'll have to find somewhere to get the rest. Should need much, right? Its just an amp and four speakers. 

I was hoping to do the sound deadening at the same time but that stuff is spendy. It really does needs some deadening done though. Do ya'll have prefered deadening products?


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Greg S said:


> Now I remember why I always had to set the speaker really low on these. If you do put the speaker where the map pocket is it will have to be spaced out to clear the limiter bar, as it runs pretty close to the inner door skin. With proper spacing and a lot of sound deadener those doors make a nice large chamer for the woofer. As for the tweeter I would not put it up in the stock location as it'll be very hard to balance the left and right sides with the un-equal path lengths between mid and tweeter. You would be better off placing it as close to the mid as possible and angling them up and back a little. The sound stage may be a little low but it will be more even.


I was reading the manual from HAT and need some help understanding what they are talking about. Early in the discourse they were saying the Clarus should be installed to take advantage of the driver's ability to handle an 'infinite baffle' as long as the cavity (ie door) can be sealed to avoid rear pressure from canceling front pressure. Then it seems later on they are saying the mounting baffle should be sealed and it should be as small as possible. I guess what I'm confused about is the difference between their recommendation of the 'infinite baffle' of the door cavity and the importance of the size and security of the 'mounting baffle'. They say: 

'in many cases, it is advisable to mount your Clarus midbass’ in high-stiffness wood or high-density fiberglass (or wood treated with fiberglass resin)....' and 'Once your baffle is built, it must be covered in one or two layers of a good-quality, brand name self-adhesive damping product' ???????

If I put them in the lower part of the door I can open the back end to the door cavity. However, there is no way to seal the cavity as there is a fresh air vent that routes from the dash to a register at the lower back edge of the door. To go down to the kick panel, which seems acoustically best, will require an enclosed pod with a certainty of a small volume. If I understand correctly, the small volume eclosure (baffle) will limit the low end output, right?

The next phase of discovery has begun. What do I do to optimize my install of the front stage?

BTW these companies should hire technical writers (grad students even) to edit their documentation so terms are not redundantly repeated and misused leading to compunctious confusion. lol


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Here is a photo of the door frame. Plenty of room on the low position. Question!: How important is the aiming of the speaker? Is the 90° (flat) mount detrimental? 

I can fit it in the kick space but eats nearly all the room beside the pedals. Doable, it seems, but tight.

I mocked up the butter container to approximate the enroute 6.5.


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## Greg S (Oct 21, 2009)

They just want the baffle to be as stiff and in-flexible as possible. What they are talking about with the infinite baffle set-up is that you should try to make sure none of the rear wave of the one can leak around to the front of the baffle. I don't think you'll be getting much bass at all with the woofers in the kick panel area. Just isn't much air space and if this speakers are designed for infinite baffle then they really need so space. The door will likely be the best bet. I would try to get them as far forward as possible and angle them up and back. This will require having them stick out from the door panel a bit due to the rubber chamber for the door guide though.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

*Amp mounting?*

Alright, I'm getting close to putting this all together. All parts in hand. RCAs were build last night. Ring terminals on the 4ga welding wire for power and ground. Angled baffles and new door panels 90% done.

I need some thoughts on mounting the amp. It is going to be mounted under the passenger seat which is directly above the front tire. There are copious vibrations as the suspension is rather stiff. Question: Would it be beneficial to mount it with some rubber bushings to reduce the shock to the amp. Am I over thinking this.

I've been snapping a few photos and will post a quasi build log when I get done.

TIA
Michael


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Never hurts, I always use some sort of absorber and nuts with nylon inserts. Better safe than sorry.


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## hackaphile (Jan 26, 2010)

Mless5 said:


> Never hurts, I always use some sort of absorber and nuts with nylon inserts. Better safe than sorry.


What exactly do you use. I've been looking at the hargware store, Fastenal, Blowes, Home Despot. Can't seem to find what I'd really like.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

One time I mounted one on muffler hangars, the type with the rubber strap. Currently a buddy of mine gave me some isolators used under HVAC equipment, they are rubber and cork, I used those on my kicker. For most cars I don't worry.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Look at grommets in auto store. I used small ones that we have at work, about cm in diameter, 1/2 cm thick.


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## cgarai (Aug 5, 2012)

*Re: Amp mounting?*

Hi,

I'm setting up the audio in an 87 Vanagon 2wd with a TDI motor in it as well. Curious if you ever posted a build log and how the project turned out.

Chris


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