# 2021 GMC Sierra - Focal Utopia, Helix, Mosconi, Audiofrog, ResoNix - Updated Dec '22



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

I have reconfigured this first post to serve as a table of contents for previous builds and brief summary of the current build. Please see Post #2 for the build introduction.

*Table of Contents:*

*Build #1 - Infinity Reference-9630x 6x9, Infinity Kappa 62ix, Dynamat*
Post #2 (click)

*Build #2 - Infinity Reference-9630x 6x9, Infinity Kappa 62ix, LC4.800, LLJ Custom Harness, JL Audio Powered Subwoofer*
Post #3 (click)

*Build #3 - Audiofrog G60S, Audiofrog GS62, JL Stealthbox w/ 2 12TW3-D8 Subs, JL XD 1000/, Audiocontrol LCQ-1 LOC/EQ*
Post #4 (click)

*Build #4 - Audiofrog GB 60/15, GS62, Helix V8 DSP Amp, Helix P One Sub Amp, Conductor w/ Custom Mount from @DeLander, Resonix CLD + CCF, Soundskins Pro SSK Kit, Topping D10S*
Post #5 (click)

*Build #5 - BLAM Multix 3 Way/Vanguard Dash Pods*
Post #90 (click)

*Build #6 - Morel Piccolo v2, Morel MM3*
Post #170 (click)

*Build #6A - MTI Pillars for Piccolo + MM3*
Post #193 (click)

*Build #7 - Mosconi Pro Amps, Helix DSP Pro mk3, Audiofrog GB12x2, MTI Stage 2 Enclosure*
Post #309 (click)

*Build #7A - Vanguard Dash Pods v2 for Mids, Valicar Pillar Pods for Tweeters, Blackhole Tiles and Block Off Plates*
Post #414 (click)

*Build #8 - Focal Utopia Front Stage*
Post #486 (click)

*Current Build (Update in Progress):*

Front Stage
Focal Utopia M - TBM, 3.5WM, 8WM

Rears
Audiofrog GS62 - Differential Rear Fill

Subs
2 x Audiofrog GB12D4
MTI Stage 2 Box (3.0 CF net)
2" LMI Seat Lift

DSP/Signal
Helix DSP Pro mk3 w/ Conductor
Topping D10S (Audioquest Pearl USB and Optical)
LLJ Customs Harness (High Level) for Phone Calls/Chimes/Navigation

Amplification
Mosconi Pro 5/30 #1
Ch 1/2 - Tweeters
Ch 3/4 - Midrange
Ch 5 - Left Sub

Mosconi Pro 5/30 #2
Ch 1/2 - Rear Fill
Ch 3/4 - Midbass
Ch 5 - Right Sub


Power/Wiring
0 AWG KnuKonceptz Kolusus Flex OFC
16 AWG OFC Speaker Wiring
10 AWG OFC Sub Wiring
Stinger Distro Blocks
Planet Waves RCA Interconnects

Sound Treatment
Resonix CLD/CCF/Blackhole Tiles - Doors, Backwall, Floor
Resonix Fiber Mat - Headliner
Soundskins Pro Door Kits

Custom Fab Work
Vanguard Automotive Design - Dash Pods for Midrange
@DeLander for UHMW Speaker and Conductor Mounts
MTI Acoustics Stage 2 Enclsoure
DIY Amp Rack

*Wiring Diagram:









Current Build Photo Highlights:

Amp / DSP Rack:

























Front Stage (Update in Progress):
























Subs and Enclosure:

















Conductor Mount:







*


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Introduciton - Going to be a long read but hopefully enjoyable to follow along with my rapid descension into the rabbit hole of car audio.

Finally had made arrangements to find a new 2021 6.2L AT4 in Satin Steel Metallic that had a confirmed delivery date to our local GMC dealer. This is a company truck for our family construction business. As most people know, inventory is literally nill nowadays and getting any sort of options on your vehicles (esp. GM trucks) cause major issues with delivery times. We found this truck with production spot but was coming with no options added but the basic AT4 trim is still decent enough. Love the truck and have had 3 of the previous Sierra body types. The 10 speed is fantastic and finally the interior are getting refreshed.

Before I jump into the audio side of this post, I wanted to briefly show what other mods have been done to the truck:

Exterior:

20x9 Fuel Vector Wheels
275/60/R20 Michelin LTX Defender Tires (Drive 99% on road and the stock Duratracs are noisy af/also have Nokian winter tires)
Magnum Headache Rack
OEM Off Road Running Boards
Illuminated Black Front GMC Emblem
Black Rear GMC Emblem
Black CarbonPro AT4 Emblems
Black OEM Exhaust Tips
Truxedo Lo Pro Tonneau Cover
Bed Mat
Xpel PPF on Front Bumper, Hood
Interior:

ProClip Phone Mount
OEM All Weather Mats
Mechanical:

S&B Cold Air Intake
Pulsar LT Programmer
J&L Oil Separator





















On to the audio side of my journey:

I knew I was going to make some level of audio upgrades because the truck was not coming with Bose system and regardless, the Bose system is a sad system in itself. So I began to research. Hadn't upgraded car audio in anything except high school, had an Infiniti QX4 with Alpine HU, Kicker 700.5, Some Kicker Speakers and CompVR10 Sub. So I started by setting a budget - initially wasn't planning on a sub, just speakers and an amp only and put $1500 as my goal. Long term, boy was I naive on my wants vs price of components.

I went Crutchfield and started a convo with an agent an was able to put together a system that seemed to check all my boxes. I was very, very green at this point and wasn't doing a ton of my own research or talking to many experienced installers. We had spec'ed a system with an amp but I needed to sort out a way to get my HU signal back to my amp. I eventually found LLJ Customs out of Arizona who specializes in custom wiring harnesses. They make a full plug and play wiring harness that intercept the 4 high level speaker outputs under the glove box and provides a long harness to mount your amps anywhere in your vehicle. I got the Loopback option which also includes an additional set of speaker wires that use the OEM speaker wiring without splicing, it is a massive time saver. I also had them added an extra set of speaker wires for my tweeters as I was going to keep my crossovers out back with my amp. Overall a great investment for someone who wants plug and play DIY, just take 5-6 weeks to get.

NavTV still isn't offering their module still, so this was my choice. I run digital now for music but still will use this as my analog source for chimes/nav/factory BT.

*Build #1 - Speakers and Deadening Only (waiting for my LLJ harness)*


Infinity Reference-9630x 6x9 - Components, Front
Installed the woofer only during this phase

Infinity Kappa 62ix - Coaxial, Rear
Dynaliner CCF on outer shells of doors
It took me months recognize this is useless without CLD

Dynalliner CCF on inner side of plastic door panel
Again probably helping with rattles but not resonance

Dynamat Xtreme at Speakers
Added some butyl rope to seal mounts and SoundSkins Rings


















Inifiniti Drivers
















Conclusions - To be honest, made a kick ass value oriented build. Had I actually used some CLD on outer and inner door shells, this would probably satisfy the average user. They are sensitive speakers and play most anything you throw at them. For running off just the HU, it was much better than expected.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

*Build #2 - Add Powered Sub, Speaker Amp, Amp Rack, Wiring Harness*

AudioControl LC4.800
JL Audio Powered Microsub 8"
LLJ Customs Wiring Harness
Amp Rack
Tweeters from Infiniti 6x9 set
In between the time I got the speakers installed and the time from receiving my harness I had done enough research to convince myself that I wanted to add a sub to my system. I set on finding the most simple solution and ended up settling with the 8" JL Powered Microsub. I was going to build a small amp rack to house my distribution blocks and mount my amps and crossovers.

I had bought the LC4.800 already from build one. Not a bad amp at all.

Got my harness:









So I began my amp rack design and fab (my carpet job was TERRIBLE), Mocked up with foam and then rack built from MDF and marine carpet.









Wired up as much as possible before install
















Installed!









Not the best job looking back but was happy with my first DIY set up in almost 15 years. This system sounded really solid, again, for its value. But the deeper I began to read, I realized that the home audio audiophile in me knew there was much more potential out there. And this is what began my revolving door of changes and some dumb decisions, I have learned from them but man, I should have slowed my roll during the next couple of builds.

*Build #2A - 10" Powered Sub and Bass Knob*

JL Audio ACP110LG-TW1 Powered Sub
JL Bass Knob
The 8" just wasn't reaching the lows and output I was looking for and ended up exchanging the 8", 250W RMS with 10", 400W RMS version and it was well worth it. The 10" ported after break in does incredible for it's size. Also added the JL bass knob out front.

8" vs 10"









Bass Knob - clean and easy


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

*Build #3 - New Speakers, Amps, Subs...well mostly everything. *

Audiofrog G60S - Components, Passive Front
Audiofrog GS62 - Coaxial, Rear
JL Stealthbox w/ 2 12TW3-D8 Subs @ 2 ohms
JL XD 1000/5
Audiocontrol LCQ-1 LOC/EQ
Deadening and LLJ Harness from previous builds
I was in my return window w/ Curtchfield (this formed a bad habit) and decided to take the plunge into what I felt was the "next level" for the system. I read a ton of great things on the AF GS set and wanted a sub box that had 2 quality subs and some room to mount the amps/components I wanted. The Stealhbox hit these boxes and fit like a glove. This system, had I gone with a DSP in lieu of the LCQ-1, I think would have probably been enough for me. It sounds damn, damn good. Warm, accurate and deep and I have very basic understandings of crossovers or tuning at this point. I used a IMM-6 and the phone RTA, some O scope work and felt I had it dialed for what I had at my disposal. I was going to just buy a DSP to finish it off but my truck hit a deer and then I decided to move to Build #4 on the next post. But first, the handful of pics I have of Build #3.

*Update: Wanted to chime on a more in depth review of this system:*

G60S - For the money, these crossed at 80 hz handled anything I could throw at them. They are the pretty much type of sound I was aiming for - just warm enough but very accurate and detailed. 6" are fairly low in the GMC doors and the tweeter is off axis in the dash corner facing the windshield (stock location is a ~2.5" wideband). My only gripe are the external crossovers, if you keep your crossovers back with your amps, you end up with a clump of wiring and 4 small boxes to store as they don't mount with anything besides VHB/Velcro.

GS62 - Not a ton to say, they are popular for a reason. Clear, powerful and easy to install.

JL Stealthbox w/ 2 TW312-D8 - Wired at 2 ohms, I have had them on 600 W from the XD1000 and 750 on the HD750 and they hit harder than I will ever need. To be honest, I never got the crossover and gain dialed in well to scale well with volume but with a DSP and pro tune coming, I am very optimistic to get some more accuracy and depth from this. The enclosure is solid as a rock (as expected with fiberglass) and is shipped beyond well. I think I would have been just as happy with an MTI box as well but liked the price and open shelf area to mount my amps. Avoiding removing the rear seat cause it's a production on the GMCs, and as a company truck, trying to avoid too much custom fab that's not removable.

JL XD1000/5 - Tiny rectangle of power - worked like a champ for me, just outgrew it. Highly recommend.

AudioControl LCQ-1 - Worked well as an LOC, though it was sensitive to input voltage aka if I went one number above my max undistorted HU volume, the unit would shut off and cycle back on. Pretty sure this was more my inexperience with setting gains at this point. Has some EQ built in but it is only 6 bands a channel and does help but barely. I tried thinking this would replace the reason I wanted a DSP but it wasn't the answer long term.

Overall, this system was extremely enjoyable once it broke in a bit. With a Helix DSP Mini, I think this a sweet truck system that's very simple to install and tune. 










New components

































Stealthbox and amps in from passenger side

















Driver's Side

















XD1000/5 and LCQ-1


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

*Build #4 - AF GB Active, Helix V8 + P One + Conductor, Resonix, Digital Signal*

Audiofrog GB 60/15 Active - Front Stage
Retain GS62 - Rear
Helix V8 DSP Amp
Helix P One Sub Amp
Conductor w/ Custom Mount from @DeLander
Resonix CLD + Leftover CCF - Exterior Door Shell
Soundskins Pro SSK Kit - Interior Door Shell
AppleCCK/Topping D10S/Audioquest for Digital Input
ABS Speaker mounts from @DeLander
This is really going to be my build for the remainder of the year. I started working with @SkizeR about halfway through these purchases and feel confident in this being a superb 2 way active set up with a great foundation for a future 3 way set up later this year or next year. Probably trying BLAM's S200.300 to get some 2 ohm power from the V8.

I have done some work planning my black ABS amp rack and can share some work I have been doing @DeLander . I should be getting this all installed this upcoming weekend and will autoEQ for now and have Nick tune it remotely once we get some free time.










Amp rack that will live in my Stealthbox mounting pocket










Mocked up conductor mount location










The CAD plan I shared with Todd aka Delander

















First renderings










Cut 2 sets in case I mess one up
























Shaped and ready to ship. I will be painting these with SEM black once I get them glued and sanded to fit.











And lastly the speaker mounts for the GB60s, GB15s and GS 62s

I will be updating as I get this next step installed! Cannot wait!


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Not sure about the "_Future_", but what you have done looks great!

Any word on how it sounds?


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

clean truck, I'm digging the wheels. and like you some of us have learned the same way, buying stuff before figuring out what we really want to accomplish. part of the diy mindset I guess. can't wait to see your next iteration.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Thanks to both of you. Will get some more detail posted here soon. And also share where we are heading with future 3 way configuration.


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

Great write up, hopefully this will help some people in the future as these trucks start to become more available. Couldn’t help but laugh at the revolving door (which is all of us) and the bad habit comment towards crutchfield. Seems like you’ve finally found the correct path, happy to hear you got your truck back to and it looks great!!

Looks like DeLander knocked it out of the park once again.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

clange2485 said:


> Great write up, hopefully this will help some people in the future as these trucks start to become more available. Couldn’t help but laugh at the revolving door (which is all of us) and the bad habit comment towards crutchfield. Seems like you’ve finally found the correct path, happy to hear you got your truck back to and it looks great!!
> 
> Looks like DeLander knocked it out of the park once again.


Hahaha yup. Definitely have learned to slow my roll when in to comes making major purchases. At least this time around I feel I’m well set up for a 3 way without having to make major equipment changes. Thanks again for you early help too. 

Still waiting for the truck from the body shop sadly, should be be middle of this week.

Todd has been awesome, anxious to see his work once it ships here early next week.


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Hahaha yup. Definitely have learned to slow my roll when in to comes making major purchases. At least this time around I feel I’m well set up for a 3 way without having to make major equipment changes. Thanks again for you early help too.
> 
> Still waiting for the truck from the body shop sadly, should be be middle of this week.
> 
> Todd has been awesome, anxious to see his work once it ships here early next week.


Mines out of commission at the moment to, Thanks to the lifter issue also got a new tcm so hopefully that does something for that pos 8 sp.🤞

Bought a range earlier to disable the afm. Amazon delivered it in under 2 hrs which is pretty incredible, wish i had a truck to put it in!!

Keep us posted, Can’t wait to hear your thoughts about revision 4.0


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## TitanCCBT3 (Jul 15, 2012)

Nice work


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

clange2485 said:


> Mines out of commission at the moment to, Thanks to the lifter issue also got a new tcm so hopefully that does something for that pos 8 sp.🤞
> 
> Bought a range earlier to disable the afm. Amazon delivered it in under 2 hrs which is pretty incredible, wish i had a truck to put it in!!
> 
> Keep us posted, Can’t wait to hear your thoughts about revision 4.0


That's right, forgot you had your lifters go, I'm crossing my fingers I don't deal with them. The AFM delete helps more than expected and I had my 8 speed re-flashed like three times to help it out.

Still waiting on a few pieces to the build aka the mounts and amps but everything ships towards me Monday. Very very excited to get it all back up and running. Been using my dad's lifted 2018 wrangler and want to shoot myself from the handling and noise pollution it has lol


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## OzAudioGmc (Dec 27, 2020)

A bit off topic but have you guys with the 8 speed had the fluid updated per the bulletin that came out a while back? I found it helped more than expected. Also, try turning OFF grade braking and turn ON trailer mode, it changes the shift points on definitely tamed the shifting significantly.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

OzAudioGmc said:


> A bit off topic but have you guys with the 8 speed had the fluid updated per the bulletin that came out a while back? I found it helped more than expected. Also, try turning OFF grade breaking and turn ON trailer mode, it changes the shift points on definitely tamed the shifting significantly.


Tow mode certainly helped and had the new fluid but never tried grade braking off. On to the 10 speed now but I would be curious to try the grade braking.


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

OzAudioGmc said:


> A bit off topic but have you guys with the 8 speed had the fluid updated per the bulletin that came out a while back? I found it helped more than expected. Also, try turning OFF grade braking and turn ON trailer mode, it changes the shift points on definitely tamed the shifting significantly.


i got the fluid changed about 2 1/2 yrs ago and it really helped but after 30k miles or so it’s starting to get a little clunky again. Thanks for the tip, hopefully i don’t need it but it’s something to try.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Updated some comments on Build #3 for anyone interested


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Dropped by my body shop a few minutes ago and got confirmed I’ll have my truck Friday for the deer hit. Hit a deer running out of the median on I-95 six weeks ago. 

































Heading into paint in about an hour.


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## OzAudioGmc (Dec 27, 2020)

Glad to hear your truck will be fixed soon! I live in the country and see this frequently. It's always amazing how much damage they can do. Hope it's as good as new when you get it back!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

OzAudioGmc said:


> Glad to hear your truck will be fixed soon! I live in the country and see this frequently. It's always amazing how much damage they can do. Hope it's as good as new when you get it back!


Yeah it blew me away, roughly 19k in damage when said and done. Seems like the antler got hooked in my headlight and then it tumbled down the side of my truck while I was doing about 70 mph .

C'est la vie but she's all painted now.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Made a little progress tonight with some of the parts I have ahead of time. Got my amp rack cut from 1/4” ABS and radii on the corners.
















Then got my leads and 47 uf/100 volt capacitors soldered into my GB15s.

















Tomorrow’s shipment is a tiny Christmas. I’ll get my V8, conductor, Resonix and my custom mounts from Delander. P One comes Friday.

Hopefully tomorrow night get V8 and distribution blocks wired up on the amp rack and get the conductor mount glued up and dry fit.

Get my truck back Friday.

Saturday and Sunday will be the remainder of the work.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

RickWilson said:


> Yeah it blew me away, roughly 19k in damage when said and done. Seems like the antler got hooked in my headlight and then it tumbled down the side of my truck while I was doing about 70 mph .
> 
> C'est la vie but she's all painted now.


Just so you know, those deer warning "whistles" actually work. All the deer I've seen since installing mine either come to a stop at the edge of the road or turn around and run away, in both cases, they give me a "WTF!" look.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

ckirocz28 said:


> Just so you know, those deer warning "whistles" actually work. All the deer I've seen since installing mine either come to a stop at the edge of the road or turn around and run away, in both cases, they give me a "WTF!" look.


Ordering one now. Thanks a ton. I feel naive not knowing about them and living in Maine most of my life.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Box of goodies came in the mail today and body shop is done with my truck. Replacement PPF film getting put on first thing in the AM. P One lands in the morning. 










Quick test fit of the conductor mount


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Just need a truck now. 😅


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Just need a truck now. 😅
> 
> View attachment 323192
> 
> ...


Nice!! Looks like BK is excited to.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

clange2485 said:


> Nice!! Looks like BK is excited to.
> 
> View attachment 323199


Long story short @SkizeR and I have unresolved beef to handle on Halo.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Made a little of progress tonight ahead of getting my truck back tomorrow.

Started by taking a peak inside the V8 and get my HEC HD BT card installed, super easy. Also disabled the auto on feature as I will be using a remote wire.

















Then moved on to prepping my GB60s and my GB15s into the mounts made by @DeLander - his work is accurate, clean and very competitive.

Started with my GB60s - drilled and tapped for some stainless hex head machine screws. I will be adding butyl VHB tape between the speakers and bracket tomorrow when I get the old door wire harnesses from GS60s.

































Then moved on to the GB15s. Fit like a glove, butyl VHB taped both sides of the mounting ring, threaded the retainer ring of the speaker and tightened the set screws in the retainer ring.

















Then added some CCF foam around the front face of the tweeter. These are ready to drop in.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Then did some amp rack work. Getting used to working with ABS is new to me but learning to be patient with drilling it.

Started but putting some tape over the top of V8 to protect it and laid out the holes for the bolts I’ll be using to mount it.
















From there I laid out penetrations for the wires feeding to the output connections of the V8









Then used my shop drill press to make the holes. Ideally should have used a hole saw but I couldn’t find them. The boring bits we used for steel actually worked well at 200 rpm on the press.
















Then I mocked up with ground and power distribution.
















On to tomorrow!


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## SNCTMPL (Nov 23, 2014)

Nice job, everything is looking great.👍🏻


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

The last piece to the puzzle has arrived 👀


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

RickWilson said:


> Ordering one now. Thanks a ton. I feel naive not knowing about them and living in Maine most of my life.


Don't feel bad, I live in the south and have known about those things my entire adult life. Until I hit 2 deer in 2 years, I've never used them.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

First things first. Body shop actually did a phenomenal job, short of putting the wrong emblem on my drivers door but that’s an easy fix. Feels great to have the truck back.










Then glued up the conductor mount. I feel officially humbled by the plastic and vinyl production process. A very different animal than finish carpentry. Certainly need to practice a bit more but with enough sanding, I got to a product I was happy enough with. Put a couple coats on it tonight and will touch up and re-coat tomorrow. Install it on Sunday.

















From there I did a quick mock up on with P One on the amp rack. Pick up some nice quality 90 deg RCA adapters from Audioquest. They certainly will with the tight clearances around the P One.


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## Old Skewl (May 30, 2011)

Looking good. Subbed for the install. Curious to see those sound skin door kits. Getting ready to start an install on a ‘14 GMC Sierra Denali when the weather breaks in PA


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Old Skewl said:


> Looking good. Subbed for the install. Curious to see those sound skin door kits. Getting ready to start an install on a ‘14 GMC Sierra Denali when the weather breaks in PA


should be getting those installed tomorrow!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Starting the morning tearing down the doors and dash corners.
















Doors, dash corners and A pillars










Then stripped off the existing CCF I had on the doors. Didn’t understand deadening on my prior installs and only had CCF but no CLD. What a pain in the ass to remove. Removed the oem weather barriers too.









Then treated the exterior door shells with Resonix CLD. Probably around 65-70% coverage. What a difference on just the knock test alone. Can’t wait to hear it.

















On to adding some CCF on top of the CLD, then treat the inner door skin.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Got the Dynaliner CCF put in (forgot to take photos) and then moved onto the Soundskins Kits for the inner door skin. I definitely like the product just a pain in the ass to peel the paper off. I figured out a system by the 2nd door and rolled all 4 doors thoroughly. Overall very happy with treatment of the doors.
















All 4 doors done. Can’t wait to hear the difference in response and reduction in road noise.


















Then added some additional CCF from the Soundskins Ring kit behind each speaker.
















Then cleaned up inside of my interior door panel speaker areas. Trimmed the rings of the speaker grilles to remove any potential conflict with the new brackets and CCF rings.









Had some leftover dynamite xtreme and lined the inside of those areas and re-applied some CCF. The door panels have been lined with CCF, probably 60% coverage.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Couple last steps of the day before heading home before the blizzard here in Maine got too extreme to drive home in.

Tessa taped the body clips of the panels









Lastly began to mock and drill my GB60 mounts.









Bonus - caught a guy skiing down the street on my drive home.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Started today by getting all the speakers installed. Started with my GB60s. Used the harnesses I got from Crutchfield from an earlier install. Let’s me plug them in and out.
















Then added some CCF tape, mounted the speand sound skin CCF rings.
















Completed front and rear door. Ready to re-assembly.


















Lastly got my GB15s installed in the dash corners.
















First impressions - fired up the system (still running the XD1000 and the cross overs from the GS set and was already blown away. Mid bass and clarity are the things I noticed immediately. Time swap out the amps and get this thing really dialed in.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Nicely done, what will you be doing with that one amp now ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Coppertone said:


> Nicely done, what will you be doing with that one amp now ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Thanks! The XD is getting returned. Wiring up the V8 and P One as we speak.


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## Coppertone (Oct 4, 2011)

Can’t wait to read what you think about the swap…


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Ended up getting all my conductor and topping wiring done first but just dry fit the amp rack and getting real real excited.









guessing about two hours until I’m wired up and firing up the full system.

more to come.


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Ended up getting all my conductor and topping wiring done first but just dry fit the amp rack and getting real real excited.
> View attachment 323563
> 
> 
> ...


Looking good, I’m excited for you to! It was smart to put something over the helix amp’s.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

dude, you're quick


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## Old Skewl (May 30, 2011)

Coming together nicely. Those sound skins door kits turned out great. They are a little expensive, but make for a nice job. I’ve read other comments about peeling off the backing. You are quick!


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## SNCTMPL (Nov 23, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> dude, you're quick


This is what I’m thinking.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

After I got the speakers mounted, I removed the existing XD1000 and LCQ-1 and rat's nest of crossover wiring from the GS Components. Was going to tackle my amp racks but decided to my Topping and signal wires sorted. It was probably to aspect of my built that was going to the most design on the fly but very happy with the outcome.

Decided I was going to mount inside my center console after trying out a few locations and was hoping to retain some access to the device visually and wiring wise but still keep it stealth.

Started by drilling holes in the bottom of the console and the console liner. Put some rubber grommets to protect wires
















Clean and easy.









Used some VHB, Dual Lock Velco to mount the Topping
















Mounted and really like the concealed wiring but easy to get to. Audioquest Pearl Optical and USB A-B cables to a Apple CCK Adapter.
















Easy to open the console check the sampling rate.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Then returned to amp rack to finish layout and wire it up. Put both mounts on some rubber grommets to help with vibration as these do mount to the Stealthbox.
















Amps are through bolted









Then dry fit the amp rack before I went to wire it
















Power and inter amp RCAs and remote wiring done
















Then finally put two layers of CCF on the bottom of the amp rack


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> After I got the speakers mounted, I removed the existing XD1000 and LCQ-1 and rat's nest of crossover wiring from the GS Components. Was going to tackle my amp racks but decided to my Topping and signal wires sorted. It was probably to aspect of my built that was going to the most design on the fly but very happy with the outcome.
> 
> Decided I was going to mount inside my center console after trying out a few locations and was hoping to retain some access to the device visually and wiring wise but still keep it stealth.
> 
> ...


Dude your killing it and moving along super fast, I’m sure nick could use another employee if your look for a career change. 

Couple questions - Where did the CCK disappear to and whats the input for the topping?

I noticed you plugged where the JL knob once was is there any reason you decided against putting the conductor there?


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

And she's in. These amps are gorgeous and I just sat and stared for a few minutes after I got it turned on and tested.









Love the profile under the seat, completely unassuming.

























I really should have wiped the V8 down before these pictures.









And arguably, my favorite part of the build. Feels very natural and very, very easy to remove.









Love these last 2 photos


















I haven't been able to tune the system at all and need to finish my Helix set up but promise to post a more formal synopsis tomorrow. Hyped that it's done and operating. My finger tips feel like I've been playing guitar for 24 hours straight. Hope you guys have enjoyed the journey so far.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> dude, you're quick


Nothing like upcoming vacations with the gf to create a sense of urgency lol



clange2485 said:


> Dude your killing it and moving along super fast, I’m sure nick could use another employee if your look for a career change.
> 
> Couple questions - Where did the CCK disappear to and whats the input for the topping?
> 
> I noticed you plugged where the JL knob once was is there any reason you decided against putting the conductor there?


Thanks a ton man! Lol I think I have a long way to go before getting up to the caliber.

CCK is under my center console with the extra length of wires, just need to pop one body clip to get at it.

And I was aiming to put the Conductor there but it's a touch too big to fit in that location. But really happy with where it ended up ultimately.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

clange2485 said:


> Dude your killing it and moving along super fast, I’m sure nick could use another employee if your look for a career change.


If he can beat me 1v1 on guardian, I'll give him a job offer


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Wanted to come back to give some first impressions on the system.

So this morning I did a very quick AutoEQ with the Helix RTA and a UMIK-1 after I cleaned my TA and crossovers. Ran full right side and full left side then all together with the subs. This feature works incredibly well. Literally click "Autoset" and start analyzer with mono pink noise and watch it EQ itself. I let it run 3, 20 second iterations on each left, right and full systems. In full disclosure - I didn't realize until writing this post I had screwed up and had the RTA limited to EQ'ing only from 160Hz up to 8000Hz (as you can see in the screenshot below). I will re-run the EQ tomorrow when I get some free time but god damn, this already is the best sounding system I have heard with my own ears and it's not even tuned right haha.









The system is just so well-rounded and handled all the variety of music I listen to with grace. I am blown away but how tight and well blended it feels. My first take away when I got the system adjusted was that it was dead silent, after I tuned I move my speaker gains up from -6 db to 0 db and still not a trace of noise, just needed that little bit of top end volume for how loud I tend to listen. Though I am realizing that I am probably listening far louder than normal because there is no fatigue on my ears, just bliss.

From there, the time spent deadening was well, well worth it. I can barely hear my tires at highway speeds which just makes everything sound and feel more premium.

Biggest difference from the previous build - MUCH cleaner sub and midbass and overall depth and clarity.

My stealthbox sounds completely different with P One - just cleaner, tighter and smoother responses. I also used to CONSTANTLY adjust my bass knob song to song. I have adjusted sub level on the Conductor only once in a few hours listening so far.

I will elaborate a bit further once I the AutoEQ run again but man I am just happy. It sounds incredible and it still has a bit of break in, new tune (both AutoEQ and from Nick eventually) before it wraps up. For a 2 way stealth set up, I think this has checked nearly every box for me. 

Also - 75 watts to GB60s is just fine, I think this gets made into a huge deal online but it is loud enough for me and I consider myself to listen to music well above average levels. I also think I have a little more head room in adding some gain to my speakers, if I really want to push it. I will still explore a 3 way eventually (just the "never settled" part of me) and go 2 ohm midbass to see how much more output it would provide but for now, I am more than satisfied.

I am in that cliche mood where "you are listening to music again for the first time" but it really is true.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> If he can beat me 1v1 on guardian, I'll give him a job offer


I bet you camp S3 with camo and sniper.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RickWilson said:


> I bet you camp S3 with camo and sniper.


No........ maybe

Just kidding. I'm not good enough anymore to have control over any part of that map lol


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So got a couple of days into the system and re-did my AutoEQ a couple of different way and saved them as a variety of presets to be able to swap to. These screen shots below are not too informative without some actually readings in REW which I will try and do tonight. 

I forgot to screen shot the Helix RTA but I can tell you it's almost a spot on match to my house curve target below. I have been leaving my subs alone for now as they seem to blend extremely well crossed 80 and where my gain is currently at.

House curve target:










My 4 presets currently loaded into V8:

The orange line is sum of all channels, not the RTA










#1 - My original AutoEQ
Tuned - All Right Side, All Left Side, All Speakers and Subs
*Note this was only making adjustments from 160 hz to 8000 hz cause I missed that setting.
I thought this sounded really really good until I re-eq'ed last night. Sound stage felt pretty far right and middle of my dash.

#2 - AutoEQ - L/R Only
Tuned - Right Front (Tweet + GB60), Right Rear, All Right Side, Left Front, Left Rear, All Left Side and didn't touch subs
Adjustments - Moved tweet to GB60 crossover from 2000 to 1800 and adjusted TA on the left GB60 and tweet to be about 4 inches closer to me. AutoEQ set from 80hz to 20000hz.
As you can see there is significant more separation in each driver's individual EQ. A lot more punch to vocals and string instruments, mid bass feel a lot stronger as well. This tune was eye opening, it was 5x better than #1. Sounds has moved a bit left and up but not as much as I would have liked.

#3 - Same as #2 but tuned all speakers (w/o subs) at the end. 
This helped balance the sound left to right a touch more added a splash more to the upper mid bass. This is the tune I am using right now. Sound signature wise - it is what I want, just need to land my sound stage left a bit more (about 12 inches if that makes any sense)

#4 - Same as #4 but tuned all speakers with the subs.
I don't think AutoEQ worked well being limited to 80 Hz and just punched a hole in my sub at the crossover point. Just sounds like it's missing the low end punch I like from music.

So I am gonna try and take some REW readings (first time using it) per driver and then summed a few ways this Friday to see if it can help get some info on adjusting the location/center of my sound stage. Not sure if offsetting my mic helps this at all or continuing to play with TA or individual channel gains.

Trust me, I am still grinning ear to ear with these new tunes - just looking to optimize.

And yes - I will be going 3 way later this year which will dramatically help my staging issues.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Got my sound stage dialed in finally. Was trying to calculate everything offline and make a ton of new preset to try and get my sound stage moved up and left.

My man @SkizeR hit me with some common sense knowledge of "use your ears" to source what was driving my stage so far right was the KISS advice I needed.

I did change to using tracerite.com/calc.html to use delay instead distance mode. Got my base TAs and tried them out, it helped but sound was still right, even with dropping my right side gains a touch.

Then I used the shift stage feature on the website to establish some level of gain and TA adjustments for about 12 inches of shift towards the driver side. And boom, night and day difference in the location of my sound. From here, I literally made 0.1 ms adjustments on the passenger GB 60 and 15 until I found a really nice center stage, then played with both the driver and passenger GB60 delay to push my sound forward a few inches.

This is where I ended up delay wise:










Current EQ with this set up:









Will probably try another round of AutoEQ on Friday or Saturday to see if the proper TA and level matching makes a difference in EQ (I assume it will to some level) and see what comes from that.

With that said - I literally can't believe I ever doubted the power of a DSP. I was intimidated for the process of using it (knew I would go Helix) and to be honest, I'm still a noob at it, but it is insane how powerful of a tool it is. Really now just need to see it utilized under the real tuning process with REW and seasoned tuner. Going to continue to explore different house curve shapes over the next few weeks and see where my ears really settle in on to help define what I would like from a final tune.

Question - does anyone use the Augmented Bass Processing? If so, I would be curious to see what settings you utilize (Dynamic Enhancement and/or SubXpander). I think I would like a little more low end at lower volumes without having to reach for my conductor. Just needs a littttttttle bit of extra down there.

Same for StageXpander - I'll try it out myself and see if it offers anything but curious if other use it.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

The tuning set up - blessed to have a warehouse at my disposal during the winter. UMIK-1 sticking out there.









The back seat tuning setup and my clunker of a work laptop


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## jheat2500 (Mar 1, 2021)

I'm super confused by the fact that you have no delay on 2 front left drivers and one front right driver. What are you considering a "center" image? Directly in front of you or center of the windshield?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

jheat2500 said:


> I'm super confused by the fact that you have no delay on 2 front left drivers and one front right driver. What are you considering a "center" image? Directly in front of you or center of the windshield?


Front L Mid and Front R Mid are not used (running a 2 way set up but labelled the C and D outputs for future use when I go 3 way). Those channels are muted if you zoom in on the screen shot, hence no TA on them.

And center for me is center of the windshield, not the driver's seat.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

jheat2500 said:


> I'm super confused by the fact that you have no delay on 2 front left drivers and one front right driver. What are you considering a "center" image? Directly in front of you or center of the windshield?


Agree. 
Center is center of the "stage", so usually center ir very near center of the dash. 
Reset delays by tape measurement and verify again from there.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RickWilson said:


> Front L Mid and Front R Mid are not used (running a 2 way set up but labelled the C and D outputs for future use when I go 3 way). Those channels are muted if you zoom in on the screen shot, hence no TA on them.
> 
> And center for me is center of the windshield, not the driver's seat.


Oh.. can't see that on the phone 😬


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> Oh.. can't see that on the phone 😬


now that I’m looking on mobile myself. Yup.
Probs should have noted that key piece of information lol.


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## jheat2500 (Mar 1, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> Front L Mid and Front R Mid are not used (running a 2 way set up but labelled the C and D outputs for future use when I go 3 way). Those channels are muted if you zoom in on the screen shot, hence no TA on them.
> 
> And center for me is center of the windshield, not the driver's seat.


Ah okay, that explains a lot! I'm still curious as to why your image needed to be adjusted so much after time alignment was originally set though? I set mine with a tape measure and distance mode and it was spot on. 12" seems like a mile inside a cabin.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

jheat2500 said:


> Ah okay, that explains a lot! I'm still curious as to why your image needed to be adjusted so much after time alignment was originally set though? I set mine with a tape measure and distance mode and it was spot on. 12" seems like a mile inside a cabin.


when I look restrospectively, the math of where I adjusted gain and delay works out a lot closer to 6 inches. I used 12 inches as my benchmark, probably because I don’t have a lot of experience with that type of acute listening and overestimated how far it was from center.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So I hooked up with Shannon Price this Saturday to knock out a a basic remote tune of the system. He was very competitively priced and figured it would at least be a small crash course in witnessing how he tunes, measures, adjusts, etc. as I have never seen the process done live. He spent a couple hours with me and got me pretty much 90% there and I tweaked the rest of the way to finalize the center of the stage, integrate my rears and global EQ.

In full disclosure, I ran out of time to save my final measurements properly (new REW user) after I integrated my rear speakers and did some final global eq adjusting. The small hole you see @ 50-60 hz is filled and I took a touch off of the hump at 80-100hz to create a much more linear rise from 200 hz up to ~35 hz. I have rears crossed at 155 hz, 24 and 5000, 24 - this helped keeping them from distracting from my front stage at all, just a compliment.

Overall, this was a drastic step up from the AutoEQ but still think the AutoEQ has a ton of value vs time invested tuning.

I had Shannon measure my the autoEQ in red and it is shown here against his final tune (before my rears were added and my Global EQ adjustments) and you can see the big improvement. I had suspected my 200 - 1000hz was off after realizing things sounded a little boomy, esp with lower male vocals, lower end guitar/piano notes and that certainly seemed consistent with the measurements we saw.









We started on the left side - GB60s crossed at 80 hz, 24db and 1800 hz, 24db. This shows left mid, left tweet and both measured together. Had a little hole @ 800hz that we boosted gently to ease the curse but mostly disappeared once we got the whole front stage tied together.









Right side of the front stage. Had a nasty hole at 200 hz that again blended mostly away after we got the whole front stage together.









Left Front Stage, Right Front Stage and Overall Front Stage. Ended up quite balanced.









From there, we added the subs. Ended up inverting the polarity of my subs and crossing them at 64hz, 24 db to deal with some issues we were having at the 80-150 hz area. I have to say the the blending of my bass to midbass and location of where bass is coming from is superior with this tune. Feels like the bass rises universally from the floor of the vehicle.









Overall, the system just gets better with time and break in. I will continue to tweak some really minor things and hopefully can make some time to hook up with Nick for an in person tune later this spring. I think that will be another big step forward but right now, with the tools at my disposal, I am stoked. The ability to hear a bass drum getting hit by the pedal AND feeling it in your chest is hard to explain to the average listener. Or hearing the breath and tongue clicks between words, the strings of an upright bass vibrating off the fingerboard in Lake Street Dive recordings just makes me want to sit and listen to everything again. I also now notice a distinct difference between well mixed music and poor recordings, it's amazing how much more detail you pick up on. 

I am currently playing around with adding the bass augmentation because I find at lower volumes (when I have passengers), the low end is lacking without a major adjustment to the my sub gain on my Conductor. I will probably experiment with differential real fill and the stage expander as well to see what it does.

Lastly, this is what my Helix EQ looks like.









Now to begin designing and dreaming about 3 way front stage combinations.


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## Mike Lang (Apr 6, 2021)

Nice truck! Nothing like a deer to screw things up for a bit.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks for the thorough update and the details about each piece of improvement and how you made it happen. I love Lake Street Dive! I agree, excellent material to evaluate your system - and just enjoyable to listen to! Great progress on a fantastic build! Looking forward to your plans on the midrange 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Now time to dive in and make the real game changer.. adjustments by ear


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

bertholomey said:


> Thanks for the thorough update and the details about each piece of improvement and how you made it happen. I love Lake Street Dive! I agree, excellent material to evaluate your system - and just enjoyable to listen to! Great progress on a fantastic build! Looking forward to your plans on the midrange
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks a ton! I've been consumed by the learning and execution of car audio and realized this community relies on the pay-it-forward mentality and wanted to play my part. Not a ton of detailed builds out there for these model trucks so I wanted to help as much as I could.

Very excited to explore the 3 way world. I know I will ended up using these pods for my midrange and tweet from Nick.


__
http://instagr.am/p/CBtiKFfp50w/

Just need to decide what fits without a major modification to the inner workings of the dash as I am trying to return the vehicle to OEM when I trade it. Also contemplating moving to a 8" true midbass when I make the 3 way jump. Nick is working with me on this and I know we will come up with a killer combo once my wallet replenishes.

Looking at:
BLAM S200.300 (2 ohm 8")
Focal Utopia 165W-XP + Utopia 3.5WM (2 ohm 6.5")
Audiofrog GB60/25/10 - Let's me re-use my GB60s which I wouldn't mind
Something in this range of fidelity - maybe Dynaudio or Gladen as well

But for now - just going to focus on making this 2 way sound as good as possible.



SkizeR said:


> Now time to dive in and make the real game changer.. adjustments by ear


This feels like a black hole for my personal time


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RickWilson said:


> This feels like a black hole for my personal time


This is what separates an "oh nice, this is good", to "oh... wow". Measurements are very close to what we hear when done correctly, but at the end of the day, they are unfortunately not the same. The difference between the people copying my remote tuning service and me, is we go through a whole set of tests/adjustments by ear after measurements to make sure everything is as good as possible. Your best bet is to just make a weekend trip to NY and hang out


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> This is what separates an "oh nice, this is good", to "oh... wow". Measurements are very close to what we hear when done correctly, but at the end of the day, they are unfortunately not the same. The difference between the people copying my remote tuning service and me, is we go through a whole set of tests/adjustments by ear after measurements to make sure everything is as good as possible. Your best bet is to just make a weekend trip to NY and hang out


Oh 100% - I think come mid-April I am going to come visit that shiny new shop you have and hand over my truck to your ears.


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## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> So I hooked up with Shannon Price this Saturday to knock out a a basic remote tune of the system. He was very competitively priced and figured it would at least be a small crash course in witnessing how he tunes, measures, adjusts, etc. as I have never seen the process done live. He spent a couple hours with me and got me pretty much 90% there and I tweaked the rest of the way to finalize the center of the stage, integrate my rears and global EQ.
> 
> In full disclosure, I ran out of time to save my final measurements properly (new REW user) after I integrated my rear speakers and did some final global eq adjusting. The small hole you see @ 50-60 hz is filled and I took a touch off of the hump at 80-100hz to create a much more linear rise from 200 hz up to ~35 hz. I have rears crossed at 155 hz, 24 and 5000, 24 - this helped keeping them from distracting from my front stage at all, just a compliment.
> 
> ...


Very nice I'm digging the build man. 

Shannon is a good dude. 
I’m kind of a Remote tuning whore, only because all the "highly recommended" shops that do dsp tuning within 500 miles of me suck ass at it and I’ve wasted a bunch of $$ on them. (I really have no time or want to learn myself)

I've had a not so great remote tuning guy too that was highly recommend on the f150 forums but now have three different guys that do very well, Shannon being one of them. I think he was able to get the most well-rounded well blended sound. 
I really want to find someone with a more trained ear to sit in the seat and give me some feedback. 

If Nick wasn’t clear on the other side of the states from me I would be there in a hot minute for an in person tune. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Sirikenewtron said:


> If Nick wasn’t clear on the other side of the states from me I would be there in a hot minute for an in person tune.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dude, its only like a 45 hour drive... i'll put you on the schedule for next tuesday


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Sirikenewtron said:


> Very nice I'm digging the build man.
> 
> Shannon is a good dude.
> I’m kind of a Remote tuning whore, only because all the "highly recommended" shops that do dsp tuning within 500 miles of me suck ass at it and I’ve wasted a bunch of $$ on them. (I really have no time or want to learn myself)
> ...


Very much agreed - it helped the system take a good step forward after the remote tune. 

With that said, I didn't realize Nick's shop is only about 5 - 5.5 hours from me (for some reason I had 8-9 hours in my head until I googled it) so I am probably heading out there in April - May sometime ideally. Just trying to juggle a few house projects logistically and financially - god damn fence for the pupper will cost 1.5x what I invested into my audio system. But I'd like to go 3 way up front before I go to his shop for a tune. Seems stupid to drive all the way for a 2 way tune now (full well knowing I am going 3 way) to just swap out my front stage and want him to tune it again.

I ordered up my OEM dash pods yesterday to send to Nick to modify so now we just need to work through what drivers I am going to use without completely wrecking the wallet.


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## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> Dude, its only like a 45 hour drive... i'll put you on the schedule for next tuesday


30 year ago I'd probably almost be crazy enough to do that, I did a lot crazier things. 
Too old now days 




RickWilson said:


> Very much agreed - it helped the system take a good step forward after the remote tune.
> 
> With that said, I didn't realize Nick's shop is only about 5 - 5.5 hours from me (for some reason I had 8-9 hours in my head until I googled it) so I am probably heading out there in April - May sometime ideally. Just trying to juggle a few house projects logistically and financially - god damn fence for the pupper will cost 1.5x what I invested into my audio system. But I'd like to go 3 way up front before I go to his shop for a tune. Seems stupid to drive all the way for a 2 way tune now (full well knowing I am going 3 way) to just swap out my front stage and want him to tune it again.
> 
> I ordered up my OEM dash pods yesterday to send to Nick to modify so now we just need to work through what drivers I am going to use without completely wrecking the wallet.


Hell yeah 3 way will be great. I'd wait until then for the tuning too. 
I'm hoping by next year I'll be going the same route, 3 way. 

I've heard some people say going from the gb15/GB60 combo to the audiofrog 3 way isn't a significant difference but I can't see how it couldn't be if tuned correctly. Not that I know much about all this, just enough to be dangerous. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

As @SkizeR says, 3 way is de way.


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## Alipor (Sep 9, 2012)

RickWilson said:


> As @SkizeR says, 3 way is de way.


It is, I have a AF 3 way in my 19 Silverado that SkizeR built. It's a great system.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Alipor said:


> It is, I have a AF 3 way in my 19 Silverado that SkizeR built. It's a great system.


I know your truck all too well haha. It’s actually how I found Nick in the first place. Those dash pods are gorgeous and the Director mount. I just need that Zen module to be produced again. 

We are talking through 3 way options now. Can’t wait.


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## Alipor (Sep 9, 2012)

RickWilson said:


> I know your truck all too well haha. It’s actually how I found Nick in the first place. Those dash pods are gorgeous and the Director mount. I just need that Zen module to be produced again.
> 
> We are talking through 3 way options now. Can’t wait.


The zen is worth it to have carplay, It wasn't out originally when we first did the build, I added when it came out. But if you don't use carplay etc, it's not a huge problem to go direct to the DSP.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

100% agreed. I’d like CarPlay and to regain my steering wheel volume control but my Topping works well for now until they produce the Zen again.

I have wireless CarPlay that connects well but it swaps the audio output to CarPlay every time I swap songs, something with iOS in the most recent update. So CarPlay is off for now, doesn’t really bother me much as I still have all my other OEM controls in tact.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Message sent, do you know the Frequency range of Wireless Carplay?

It could be like 200-10k (ouch)...


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

I actually haven’t looked, my music output remains through the Topping regardless if I am connected to wireless CarPlay or not. Only thing that comes through CarPlay are phone calls and navigation prompts


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## TexZen (Jul 4, 2010)

Fantastic install! Super close to what I've been contemplating putting in my truck.

Also...


RickWilson said:


> ...I just need that Zen module to be produced again...


If you're interested, I have a NTV-KIT955 ZEN-AVB KIT that I ordered direct from nav-tv back in September of '20. Never got around to installing it and I now have an f250 Tremor on order and am selling the AT4.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

TexZen said:


> Fantastic install! Super close to what I've been contemplating putting in my truck.
> 
> Also...
> 
> ...


Thanks a ton!

I would absolute buy it once I can confirm this works with the non-Bose radio model. I’m not sure the pins in the speaker harness match up. If they do, consider that Zen sold. I’ll reach out to NavTv tomorrow morning.


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## TexZen (Jul 4, 2010)

RickWilson said:


> Thanks a ton!
> 
> I would absolute buy it once I can confirm this works with the non-Bose radio model. I’m not sure the pins in the speaker harness match up. If they do, consider that Zen sold. I’ll reach out to NavTv tomorrow morning.


Eh, not sure it'll work.  That being said, I'm not the final arbiter of that knowledge. Let me know either way.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

MythosDreamLab said:


> Message sent, do you know the Frequency range of Wireless Carplay?
> 
> It could be like 200-10k (ouch)...


That’s not how it works. Wireless CarPlay uses a closed WiFi network for data @ 5gigahertz and uses Bluetooth to control functions. The music is not transmitted via Bluetooth.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

DaveG said:


> That’s not how it works. Wireless CarPlay uses a closed WiFi network for data @ 5gigahertz and uses Bluetooth to control functions. The music is not transmitted via Bluetooth.



Cool, so it operates at full frequencies? I thought Carplay was limited...


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Welp 2 way lasted 2 weeks.

Just pulled the trigger on a juicy Signature/Multix 3 way from BLAM.

WS8.100 - 2 ohm, 8” mid bass
Multix MS3 - 3” midrange
TSM 25Mg 45HR - 1” Tweeter

@DeLander -going to need some new mid bass adapters haha

Will have the GB60/15 for sale in a few weeks. Looking for $1150 for the combo, will have only a month or so of use.

damn excited to see what this 3 way is capable of, esp with a tune from Nick.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

RickWilson said:


> Welp 2 way lasted 2 weeks.
> 
> Just pulled the trigger on a juicy 3 way from BLAM.
> 
> ...


dang give us slow guys some time to catch up! congrats on 3 way and upgrading to blam. waiting to hear your opinion of them as i may head that direction. if i could ever finish


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Haha I seem to exclusively build systems that I know I will eventually upgrade but with this, I’m not sure there is too much more ceiling without a full ground up new build. Just knew I was going 3 way eventually, just accelerated the change to be ahead of my trip to Nick’s shop.


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## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

Daaamn haha hell yeah man!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Only one short UPS trip and two custom dash pods away from these new babies getting installed


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Those look cool...!

What does a 3-way Blam set cost? if you don't mind me asking - OR you can use Conversation to tell me...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

MythosDreamLab said:


> Those look cool...!
> 
> What does a 3-way Blam set cost? if you don't mind me asking - OR you can use Conversation to tell me...


Depends on the model. In the Signature and Multix line there are many options that you can mix and match.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> Depends on the model. In the Signature and Multix line there are many options that you can mix and match.


Well I was asking about the ones he bought (in the picture) and I realized he may not want to list exact pricing, so a range is fine, for instance are they around $3k a set, $2.5k, $2k, $1.5k, I was just looking to comapre to price-compare to Focals or Morels, etc...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

MythosDreamLab said:


> Well I was asking about the ones he bought (in the picture) and I realized he may not want to list exact pricing, so a range is fine, for instance are they around $3k a set, $2.5k, $2k, $1.5k, I was just looking to comapre to price-compare to Focals or Morels, etc...


List prices:

The WS8.100 is $1250 a pair
The MS3 is $1000 a pair
The TSM25 MG45 is $600 a pair


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Little clean up tonight under the hood after chatting with Nick about my dash pods. Stinger fuse mount on some 1/4" ABS.

My old Crutchfield unit and my new Stinger:
















Also a bit more serviceable
















And then a little place planning 









Shipping my pods and pillars out to Nick next week, new mounts from Delander coming next week, install to happen in about 2.5 weeks!


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## DarkravenR6 (Jan 29, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> View attachment 325174
> 
> 
> Only one short UPS trip and two custom dash pods away from these new babies getting installed


Very curious to see how those 8's sound to you when finished!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Mr @DeLander sent me a quick progress pics of the new mounts for the 8”. Another step closer


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## TitanCCBT3 (Jul 15, 2012)

Are the speakers in the dash going to be firing up or angled?

awesome build log. Hopefully I can get mine rolling soon


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

TitanCCBT3 said:


> Are the speakers in the dash going to be firing up or angled?
> 
> awesome build log. Hopefully I can get mine rolling soon


thanks man, they will be firing into the windshield yeah (trying to keep the build as stealth as possible). I don’t think I will run into too many tuning issues based on what I saw with the GB15s currently.

@SkizeR will be making me replicas of these in the next couple weeks.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Welp, I'm aroused. These things are even sexier in person. Thanks @SkizeR 🖤


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

They look pretty, any idea on how the Tweeters sound?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Nick just wrapped up a Huracan Evo with this exact set up and I’m sure he can comment on it better than I.

I don’t want to make the soft dome (what I think I like) vs hard dome comparison because I’m not sure I have enough experience listening to higher versions of each to predict. I’m curious as hell but I’m confident.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Nick just wrapped up a Huracan Evo with this exact set up and I’m sure he can comment on it better than I.
> 
> I don’t want to make the soft dome (what I think I like) vs hard dome comparison because I’m not sure I have enough experience listening to higher versions of each to predict. I’m curious as hell but I’m confident.


_Any bets on "they sound awesome"??_


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

MythosDreamLab said:


> _Any bets on "they sound awesome"??_


idk, but they certainly didnt look like tumors on the dash 

That said, I was comfortable dropping Audiofrog for BLAM if that says anything..


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Got my @DeLander mounts today in the mail  He even saved me some time pre-drilling all the mounting holes for me. Increased the thickness of the bracket by 1/8" from 1.125" (on my GB60s) to 1.25" to move the basket a bit more forward which could allow me to mount the 8" without needed to touch the opening in my door. The fit is spot on. Sent out my A pillars and dash pods to Nick yesterday and hopefully get them back in a couple weeks to wrap up the install.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Put those in with for a temporary 2 way setup and see how they sound.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> Put those in with for a temporary 2 way setup and see how they sound.


I will have some free time Monday afternoon and will do just that. Probs will leave them on the same tune and crossovers as my GB60s for now, maybe I'll drop them to 60hz and see how they do.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

When my A-Pillars were being reworked and I had only four Focal Utopia165W-XP woofers playing, I was amazed at how high of frequencies they played at, now granted I only listed to FM (radio) which is severely clipped, but still, it was strange how much highs I could hear, I was expecting a bomp-bomp-bomp of bass, but I could hear the singing and other instruments, and I played it REAL low, but it sounded ok (and much better than no music at all for a couple of weeks)...!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Frequency wise the 8” should be good up 3.5k but buried down low in my doors, I doubt they would like that.

I’ll be crossing them 60 - 1800 and think they will actually do pretty well with GB15 as a temporary 2 way. Super excited to see 2 ohm vs 4 ohm and 6” vs 8”.


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## ccham03 (10 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> Going to be a long read but hopefully enjoyable to follow along with my rapid descension into the rabbit hole of car audio.
> 
> Finally had made arrangements to find a new 2021 6.2L AT4 in Satin Steel Metallic that had a confirmed delivery date to our local GMC dealer. This is a company truck for our family construction business. As most people know, inventory is literally nill nowadays and getting any sort of options on your vehicles (esp. GM trucks) cause major issues with delivery times. We found this truck with production spot but was coming with no options added but the basic AT4 trim is still decent enough. Love the truck and have had 3 of the previous Sierra body types. The 10 speed is fantastic and finally the interior are getting refreshed.
> 
> ...


is the Bose system upgrade worth the hassle?


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

Are we ever going to hear a 2way comparison?
Curious as I have the frogs and think I feel like I'm missing something .


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## TitanCCBT3 (Jul 15, 2012)

Any updates? Dying to see what you did with your front stage


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

TitanCCBT3 said:


> Any updates? Dying to see what you did with your front stage


working on it. My laser was down for a couple of weeks due to a bad X-motor. Getting his pods done by the end of next week.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

I’ll def be posting as soon as I get them in. I know Nick will send them as soon as he wraps them up. I’m excited as well.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

A little preview from @SkizeR. Just some body filler and upholstery left to do. The whole 3 way should be going in this weekend


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Looks like shlt


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## SNCTMPL (Nov 23, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> Looks like shlt


Yeah, but I bet you can stick the landing.😎🍻


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

it’s been a minute…

Couple of small updates this afternoon before hopefully a very transformative day tomorrow. Removed my rear seat, thanks GM for making this such a fun process, and fully covered the rear wall in Resonix CLD. Also was able to identify the only rattle I had in my truck - an OEM wire for the rear windshield motor that isn’t utilized in my truck. All take care of now.

Before








After

















Then lastly cleaned up a little wiring, loomed up and installed a new pair of wires for the mids I’m praying (to UPS) that I get to install tomorrow.









If UPS does come through and delivers Nick’s dash pods to my office tomorrow, I will be getting the full BLAM 3 way installed tomorrow. If not, I’m going to get the 8” midbass drivers put in at least.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Man, Nick ( @SkizeR ) absolutely nailed these. Blown away and will be up early tomorrow to get the 3 way installed. UPS decided to deliver at 5:30 pm today sadly but it will be an early morning.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

They look ok


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## SNCTMPL (Nov 23, 2014)

Yea, he stuck the landing.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

3 Way Day.

So I got started bright and early this morning and started by removing my GB 15‘s and my GB 60s. I started on the install of the 8” WS8.100s in my doors. It was a snug fit but Delander and I had thickened my mounts which helped push the basket of the speaker and didn’t cause any fitment issues.

The only real tolerance issue I had was my CCF ring and as you will see in the photos, I left the vehicle facing edge open as it sits nearly against the CCF installed in my interior door panel. They are some beefy but easy to install drivers. I’ll comment on their performance in a later post but they slam down to 60hz without trouble.

New @DeLander mounts and CCF tape gasket installed.
























Added the Soundskins CCF rings and note the clearance with the door panel. Just didn’t want any risk of the foam rolling into the surround on the speaker itself. 























P


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Then moved to getting midrange and tweeter installed in the dash corners. Really all in all was simple for a hobbyist car audio guy. I first dry fit the empty pods from Nick and they fit perfect. He did warn me that I would probably need to trim some of the interior plastic in the dash. The tweeter had the biggest conflict but was easy to trim for and the mid range almost fit without any trimming but I did some anyway to be safe and allow a bit more air movement behind the driver.

Dash corners trimmed and ready the pods. Always was able to retain the oem mounting locations for when I return the truck to stock for trade in:















Then wired up some leads and mounted the drivers i the pods. I also added a littler CLD on the open areas I could find (not shown). Between Nick and BLAM, I had everything I needed:















Then finally dropped them in the dash and got all hot and bothered:















Still so happy how stealth and OEM it looks. Again, I’ll comment on performance a bit later but it was well worth the investment.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Looks awesome. I’m on team stealth too…the less anyone can see when they peek through a window the better. If it looks factory nobody will take a second glance.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

And finally, a few glamour shots. Nick was nice enough to run me through a “quick” remote tune which I’ll dive into when I get more time. Only have about 10 minutes of listening to it but god damn.


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

Looks good


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

They look alright 

j/k wish he had them for my truck


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## TitanCCBT3 (Jul 15, 2012)

Those look amazing. Nick I need a set for my silverado!!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

TitanCCBT3 said:


> Those look amazing. Nick I need a set for my silverado!!


What year


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## TitanCCBT3 (Jul 15, 2012)

SkizeR said:


> What year


2021 Silverado RST with black interior. Will probably use audiofrog gb10/25 combo


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

slowride said:


> They look alright
> 
> j/k wish he had them for my truck


Me to!!


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

clange2485 said:


> Me to!!


Someone with a k2 drive to nicks and get a set


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## StaudiA6 (Nov 13, 2021)

Had a 2019 GMC truck previously and wish I could have had a setup like that. Looks factory and I bet it sounds amazing. Top notch work by Nick there. Those guys are putting out some incredible work.


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

clange2485 said:


> Me to!!


Me to!!!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Feel free to PM me if you guys want something like this.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Alrighty, so finally have a few moments to catch on a quick remote tuning session with Nick and first impressions of the upgrades.

Starting with the tune.

First off, I have thank Nick (@SkizeR ) for being so goddamn patient available for the past couple months while this system has gotten designed, modified again and then texting Nick with my incessant need to ask him "what about this x speaker?". He has been both responsive, honest, generous and fair. From what started as a simple online amp order turned into a extremely informative and transparent process. I know Nick's reputation of deep industry knowledge, honest feedback and top tier craftsmanship precedes him but the proof was in the pudding. If you think he's expensive or niche because you see his higher end builds showcased here, he in reality, is not. The value of my investment in retail hardware prices and his labor/materials has been more than I recognize - you get what you pay for (and more) but also learn the why, who, where, what and how along the way. He educates you down the smallest detail if you'd like. Also, his end products are superb. If every client of his and Vanguard's get the type of service I have received, I'm convinced he's not human and never sleeps. Ok, enough about stroking Nick's ego toooo much.

On Sunday I was pressed for time after getting the 3 Way installed and needing to get home to the SO and pupper, but Nick said he was around to knock out a quick set up and tune. We got my debacle of a computer set up going and he blasted through the measurements. In short, things were rough. 200 Hz and 2000 Hz were deep valleys of cancellation. Left mid bass and right midrange were def the worst. Within 45 min, he had a tune that already blasted away my previous tune. We worked on my center imaging but my (worse than I thought) hearing loss in my left ear had Nick saving attempted tunes like "time alignments ****ed.aspx", so we played around with some test tracks and got things pretty close and I was able to dial it in today with a couple minor adjustments in L/R gains.

Gonna show a few measurements. We didn't get crazy granular, just a quick tune as I am heading to Nick's shop in a couple of months for an in-person tune and the drivers need some more break in. I am curious how much the sound evolves in these, because my Frog GBs a month after I owned them got really, really good - started a bit sterile and then warmed up over time. I was almost sad to take them out of my truck, almost. Whoever I sell my GBs to will have some freshly, broken in nice drivers.

But then I played Money for Nothing and Strobe by deadmau5 on the new front stage and I was just grinning.

So anyways, measurements.

Crossovers are:
Sub 0 - 60
Midbass 60 - 280~
Midrange ~280 - ~3.5K
Tweeter ~3.5K up

Left Front Stage - 180, 1,2K, 2K were rough to start with









Right Front Stage - 250, 1.2K to 2K cliff









Subwoofer - I had a HPF @ 20Hz acting as a subsonic filter and didn't even notice how much I was probably starving my low end. Between the 8"s crossed at 60 and the subsonic removed, my low end has gotten much "fuller" and cleaner. The bass drum in the live Hotel California hits you square in the chest while sounding exactly how you would expect a bass drum to sound. It images super well.










Final Left/Right/Sub Stage and All On (Pink) - Still have a couple little bumps from wonky cancellations and running out of time but I know Nick will perfect it in person. Still spent 3 hours this morning just listening to my tuning playlist of 40-50 songs just admiring the little differences.









Gonna cover first impressions in a following post.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

yeah, we did that really rough lol


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

First impressions of the change from 2 way to 3 way. TL DR, even with a quick tune and brand new out of the box, the overall capability and clarity of this system has really taken a large step forward.

To preface, I was really partial to my GB60/15 set up. I had a sound stage I liked, it played most everything I threw at it very very well, it was as loud as I needed it to be. I felt I was certainly in the threshold of diminishing returns. I, subconsciously, always hovered towards genres and artists that sounded best on the GBs and it played most everything pretty damn good and some things really well. I think it is still an incredible 2 way set up but this 3 way does everything and more, easier and louder. Anything I played today, I was impressed.

The first thing that grabbed me was the separation of instruments from vocals i.e. one does not feel like it's sacrificing to the other. Instruments that really improved were:

Piano: (I played the Light of the Seven which was always a sore point in the GB system) and noticed how controlled each note sounded. My GBs had trouble with what sounded like resonance or buzzing with piano only tracks.
Strings: just more accuracy and depth all around
Guitar: Acoustic guitars always were great on the GBs but lead distortion guitars would often struggle against higher freq. vocals, one would tend to take over the other, it's clear the dedicated mid range has completely solved these kind of issues.
Percussion: Toms especially have come to life, snares almost catch you off guard
Vocals: Vocals in general are just next level. They stand on their own and with a lot more realism, feels like someone is sitting on my dash singing.

The height of my sound stage is also so much more consistent - obviously this is expected when moving to 3 way from a non-wideband 2 way but it took a bit of getting used to initially. Like getting used to certain vocals or instruments coming from my dash instead of my doors. 

Songs that really stood out to me today:

Clear A Space - Lake Street Drive - the acoustic bass and vocals made me restart the song twice it was so defined.
Aerials - System of a Down - this song seemed to fall between the cracks of my old system, the low end of this song was much more present
Light of the Seven - Ramin Djawadi - I would skip this song on my old system cause piano was a sore spot, I love this track and felt good to listen to it in a whole different way today.
The Pot - Tool - the bass guitar sounds like its 2 feet in front you amp and all
Apple Juice - Jessie Rayez - her voice can easily sound shrill on most systems but it was much cleaner this time around.
Strobe - deadmau5 - the kick bass is gnarly, so clean but so powerful. The 8s love this type of music.
City on Down (Live) - OAR - one of my favorite live recording and the saxophone is just good, good.
Shake the Frost (Live) - Tyler Childers - his opening lyrics just come though so clear and chilling
Roses (Imanbek Remix) - SAINt JHN - the synth mid bass king track, every mirror shakes with this on full tilt, just fun
Chiron - All That Remains - The double bass drum was the cleanest I've ever heard it

Can't wait for the system to continue to break in and get back with Nick to make some tweaks. Going to to continue experimenting with little adjustments and differential rear fill. So far, extremely pleased with the upgrade.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Just set up my appointment to have Nick tune my truck in person this Saturday. Beyond ****ing stoked. The finish line is in sight.


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## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Just set up my appointment to have Nick tune my truck in person this Saturday. Beyond ****ing stoked. The finish line is in sight.


Very nice!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Rectified some final odds and ends today before heading to Nick’s early tomorrow morning. Noticed some vibrations at 60-70hz from my driver’s door. Readjusted the position of the speaker away from the contact it was making with the door panel.









Then dealt with my rattling seatbelts. Added some CCF and added some rubber edging on the backside of the metal bracket.
























Lastly, I can’t visit the king of deadening products and not take care of every surface possible. Doggy bed. Check.


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

I like that , so the doggy treats don't rattle.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Chasing out those last rattles can be a pain. I have something going on in mine that I’m pretty sure is the flapper vent in the back but I haven’t had time to verify. It only does it at about 40-50hz I guess but it’s definitely there.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

UNBROKEN said:


> Chasing out those last rattles can be a pain. I have something going on in mine that I’m pretty sure is the flapper vent in the back but I haven’t had time to verify. It only does it at about 40-50hz I guess but it’s definitely there.


In the same boat now, have an odd resonance related rattle deep in the passenger side of my dash. Can only recreate it at a full volume 60 or 70hz tone and/or a couple specific songs that hit that frequency at max volumes. Nick is actively tuning my truck and might inherently fix the issue. I may have also lost a small piece of plastic when trimming my dash that I just need to find.

Also just got a chance to hear a full Accuton 3 Way front stage with an AE IB sub. Not sure if I ruined myself for future builds but the tweeters and sub alone were so damn good. The staging alone speaks for itself. Will def be investing into custom pillars in future builds.

Getting pretty close to hearing the new tune. Nick is getting damn granular. Very excited to have 5 hours of seat time on my drive home.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Sounds like a great 5 hour ride, what are some of you Test Tunes?

And what is your method of listening/file types? (CD, mp3's Flac, Thumb drives?)


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

MythosDreamLab said:


> Sounds like a great 5 hour ride, what are some of you Test Tunes?
> 
> And what is your method of listening/file types? (CD, mp3's Flac, Thumb drives?)


I have a ~150 track list on Tidal that spans a ton of genres. Playing from Tidal Hifi into the Topping D10 (Optical out).

I will start with the classics:

Money for Nothing
Hotel California (Live)
Bunch of Lake Street Dive tracks
Strobe, Stay by deadmau5
Time and Money by Pink Floyd

I can probably link my playlist here in a bit. It’s got a bit of everything. Also like to dabble into PSSound’s demo list.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

I have a number of test CD's, that I made to demonstrate and appreciate my speakers and stereo 's full capabilities. I have plenty of favorites, but they are not always recorded optimum. I look for Test Tunes that have w-i-d-e dynamic ranges while being super clearly recorded. That will be the true test...

Not music that is all muddled together, for instance the Ramones, cool (if you like that sort of stuff) but the music is sort of a wall-of-sound mess on crunchy-grinding bass and guitars, same with most gunge music and a lot of metal. Typically Live albums are not recorded/mastered as well as studio recordings

The remastered versions of both Time and Money should play awesome on your set up, turn up the clock-alarms and the cash-registers /money clanging and push those Tweeters and Mids to their fullest...!

A few more songs, I would recommend, if you can find hi-quality versions/files are:

The Wind that Shakes the Barley: Dead Can Dance
(This is a lone female signer with an amazing voice and no instruments)





Happiness is Easy: Talk Talk (remastered)
(The bass, the drums, other individual instruments along with the vocals are so amazingly clear and well separated)





Big Sleep: Simple Minds (remastered)
(Probably the best bass-drum hit of any song I own)





Peter Gabriel: Don't Give Up (remastered)
(Awesome clear vocals by him & Kate Bush, clear bass-lines as well)





More available upon request, lemme know how they sound if you end up playing any of them...


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Got to listen the new tune and man what a difference. Nick identified some phasing issues that were screwing heavily with centering and staging but my god, it sounds so good now. Mid bass is way more definitive and the top end detail is much more alive.

Also got a good listen of Nick’s personal vehicle with his Utopia set up. Beyond dialed in, his front stage is so controlled and accurate song to song, the detail his TBMs provide is really eye opening.

I will say though, the gap between my truck and the Accuton/Utopia set ups I heard today closed significantly between this morning and this afternoon. Wrapping up rear fill and very minor adjustments now before I hit the road. Being a great time hanging with Nick and his crew, top notch folks.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

For those that love graphs without context, how's this?


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

RickWilson said:


> In the same boat now, have an odd resonance related rattle deep in the passenger side of my dash. Can only recreate it at a full volume 60 or 70hz tone and/or a couple specific songs that hit that frequency at max volumes. Nick is actively tuning my truck and might inherently fix the issue. I may have also lost a small piece of plastic when trimming my dash that I just need to find.
> 
> Also just got a chance to hear a full Accuton 3 Way front stage with an AE IB sub. Not sure if I ruined myself for future builds but the tweeters and sub alone were so damn good. The staging alone speaks for itself. Will def be investing into custom pillars in future builds.
> 
> Getting pretty close to hearing the new tune. Nick is getting damn granular. Very excited to have 5 hours of seat time on my drive home.


I’m going up to MTI next Friday to let Christerfer play with mine.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

This is bliss, pure bliss.

Top to bottom, everything sounds more revealing. It’s like Nick pulled ear plugs out of my ears.

edit: just drove 4.5 hours without touching my volume knob


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RickWilson said:


> Got to listen the new tune and man what a difference. Nick identified some phasing issues that were screwing heavily with centering and staging but my god, it sounds so good now. Mid bass is way more definitive and the top end detail is much more alive.


Wish we had more time when doing remote tuning. This could have been identified if we both weren't scrambling to wrap up. 





RickWilson said:


> Also got a good listen of Nick’s personal vehicle with his Utopia set up. Beyond dialed in, his front stage is so controlled and accurate song to song, the detail his TBMs provide is really eye opening.


Thanks. We try 



RickWilson said:


> I will say though, the gap between my truck and the Accuton/Utopia set ups I heard today closed significantly between this morning and this afternoon. Wrapping up rear fill and very minor adjustments now before I hit the road. Being a great time hanging with Nick and his crew, top notch folks.


Most would definitely be surprised at what you can do with something relatively simple, such as your install. The differences as you go up get smaller and smaller. That said, I really wish you got to hear Matts Tesla (our Accuton Automotive Demo Car) while it isn't in the middle of changes. 2 weeks ago, that thing was _dialed_





RickWilson said:


> This is bliss, pure bliss.
> 
> Top to bottom, everything sounds more revealing. It’s like Nick pulled ear plugs out of my ears.
> 
> edit: just drove 4.5 hours without touching my volume knob


Glad its all sounding great. So what are you upgrading next? lol



Oh, and to those focused on that REW measurement, that isn't its end result. That was before finishing the tuning by ear and correcting things that don't necessarily show on a simple RTA graph.


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## Willbo (Mar 23, 2014)

Curious to see the curve. I know that is only a base line but would like to see what that looks like.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Willbo said:


> Curious to see the curve. I know that is only a base line but would like to see what that looks like.


It's posted above.


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## Willbo (Mar 23, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> It's posted above.


Thanks! Apparently I have selective post reading tonight. Lol. Not even sure how I missed that. Bad thing is that I even liked that post. This has been an awesome build log.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Wanted to share a quick recap of my trip to visit Nick's new shop.

Left about 5 am from Maine and landed on the doorstep of Vanguard around 10/1030 am where they were wrapping up a large scale custom lighting build a new 3/4 ton Denali. It was cool to see their shop handles much more than just car audio now. I got to poke around the shop while handed that build over and was very impressed with the set up, especially the fab shop. Things are intentionally placed and seem to flow well.

I was able to chat with Matt for a while (who has the Accuton Tesla) and pick his brain about how he got into the field and what kind of builds he has done. While very quiet, it is clear Matt has some extensive experience and is quickly soaking up knowledge from Nick and Chris quickly. His AE sub (running IB through the floor) was really fun to experiment with - as I have watched most of Peter's (PSSound) videos and seen tons of his IB builds, hearing is believing. It's amazing how low that sub could get cleanly. Couple that with a front sub and Accuton front stage, that vehicle does pretty much anything possible musically. But I mostly enjoyed just listening him walk through the different iterations of the build and why the changes occurred.

Chris - Nick's new business partner, offered a very different perspective. Clearly a high energy and dedicated guy who doesn't fret about putting in silly hours to make something correctly. Chris seems to act as bridge to a couple unique aspects - old school, creative fabrication and 12V electronics beyond car audio. Chris walked me through his boat audio and lighting build, a couple of one-off lighting builds and the wild Nismo Z build they are wrapping up. It is clear Chris' mind never stops thinking about what chances he has at improving a build. He was a great dude to chat with.

I think I can safely say that Nick is pretty much that same person here online as he is in person - I mean that in the most endearing way possible lol. It's immediately clear Nick wants to help you in the most direct path possible, he is politely blunt and a good dude all around. We walked through my build and my previous tune, what I was looking for and he set straight off into my tune. While I won't both posting every graph and such from REW, the man is a god-send to tuning. The imbalances in my midrange and midbass that he cleaned up were wild, even on 1/12 smoothing, there's barely any 1 to 2 db variances, the tweeters have even less variances. He went in to every nook and cranny. Took us about 3 hours of work, testing some tracks, letting me listen, adjust, repeat and then we hit our point where we were both very pleased. At this point also, we are getting pretty fatigued from listening so if there is anything to adjust, Nick will make some final adjustments based on my feedback over the couple of weeks.

Truthfully, I didn't set much expectations when I drove out for the tune. I knew Nick would certainly improve the sound of the system but I never expected it would actually be night and day difference.

I listened to both Matt's Accuton (which I know is a WIP but still was a leap ahead of my previous tune) and Nick's Utopia set up before I got a chance to listen to my final tune. I was sitting in their vehicles going "man, I should have bought X cause these front stages sound insane" and wasn't sure I'd be pleased with my set up after that. Boy was I wrong. There is a gap of quality between my system and theirs (mostly I think in tweeter quality/installation location) but what Nick's tune did to my truck blew me away. It's shocking the detail I pick up in music now. It was as big of a step (if not bigger) than getting my DSP first installed.

This experience has solidified a few things for me. Assuming a good installation - a decent DSP and skilled tuner offer the biggest change in a system for the money. While good components do help, I am confident Nick can pull off some wild systems using OEM or entry level pieces of hardware. It was such a leap forward. If you are within any reasonable distance to Nick's shop or are interested in his remote tune, don't hesitate.

Lastly, once we wrapped up, I grabbed a couple of beers and a great lunch with Nick and Chris and shared some old competitive Halo stories and then made the drive back to Maine that night. 

I will post more of a synopsis on the system itself once I get a little more seat time and Nick and I sprinkle on a couple final minor adjustments. Overall, the trip could not have been more worth it.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Glad it was worth it to you. Was nice having you over and was fun being able to talk to someone in person about the "good ol' days" of Halo. I really wish we had more time with the remote tune so I could have nailed down issues better. I really wanted to hear what I could have done remotely lol.


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## mumbles (Jul 26, 2010)

Nice description of the “behind the scenes” at Vanguard… something you don’t hear about too often.
Also nice to know that Nick exceeded your expectations in the tune, congrats to both of you!


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## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Wanted to share a quick recap of my trip to visit Nick's new shop.
> 
> Left about 5 am from Maine and landed on the doorstep of Vanguard around 10/1030 am where they were wrapping up a large scale custom lighting build a new 3/4 ton Denali. It was cool to see their shop handles much more than just car audio now. I got to poke around the shop while handed that build over and was very impressed with the set up, especially the fab shop. Things are intentionally placed and seem to flow well.
> 
> ...


Very jealous you've got a guy like Nick Relatively close to you. That’s awesome!



SkizeR said:


> I really wish we had more time with the remote tune so I could have nailed down issues better. I really wanted to hear what I could have done remotely lol.


June dude! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Chased out the final rattles yesterday - had my windshield replaced from a rock chip and no one from the glass shop mentioned to me they snapped the tabs off the wire cover to my rearview mirror but was able to get it secured with some butyl tape. Lastly, found my OEM tweeter plug was getting moved around on some heavy 60-70hz notes. Finally feel that I have most everything secured and tight.
















Final update/synopsis on the system to follow.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So it's been about a week since my visit to Vanguard/Nick's shop and probably about 20-30 hours of seat time to get in some critical listening. I want to provide a final synopsis of the system as a whole, it's comparison to my GB 2 way and a couple personal preference adjustments I made in the tune. Lastly, will share some overall thoughts on the DIY experience and some lessons learned from my build.

Tuning and some minor changes

Throughout the process of the build I got try a variety of tuning methods and tried to read and watch as much as I could about the subject. I knew once I committed to a DSP, I wanted to understand how it operated and how to manipulate it on my own or at least understand what others would be doing while watched their tuning process. I have tried everything from an LCQ-1 with a 7 band eq and a phone mic to Helix AutoEQ to a couple of remote tunes to finally having Nick tune my system in person. During every step in this progression, the system got better and I was mostly able to learn why it made improvements. Whether it was by measuring techniques, how peaks and dips were EQ'ed, phasing, TA or house curves - I felt I was able to absorb the basics during my journey. I will never claim to be an expert on the tuning process but I certainly undervalued its importance and effectiveness early on in my process.

With that said, Nick turned my truck into a symphony last Saturday. It dramatically improved in nearly every area of the frequency range. I was unprepared for the level of detail I was going to get out of the music which certainly took a few days to adjust to. His tune is truly SQ accurate and lets you hear anything the recording has to offer. Now after getting some hours under my belt, I recognized a couple things - I like a bit more playful, punchy low end and I was a bit sensitive to the 600hz to 2000hz range (now that I had a system that was reproducing that properly). I spent some time last night making some very small adjustments to the tune in these areas. Some very light cuts (-0.5db to -1.5db) in the virtual front channels on the V8 in that 600-2000 range took away 95% of issues I was having with sensitivity, I lost just a splash of clarity but it's barely noticeable. I was also taken aback by how much frequencies can measure differently from ear to ear location in this freq. range - using a fixed microphone location is really not giving an accurate picture of the full variances.

Next I moved on to my sub - I wanted to get back a little more chest punch bass and more in the very low end side of the curve. Nick's tune is certainly performs much better at providing detail down low and is more consistent at complimenting the music rather than having bass overpower it. I personally just needed a litttttle more punch across 20-100hz and you can see the 2-3db added (mostly in 20-60hz) made just the difference I wanted. While the sound isn’t quite as "tight" as before, it's that punch I really in a system.










Please don't read this as I was unsatisfied at the tune Nick gave me or criticize the shape of the curve in the measurement (it's my measurement, not his), when I left Nick's shop, this tune was exactly what I had asked for. We had done several minor adjustments after he finished his tuning process. My takeaway is - his tune allowed me to become even more granular in my understanding of what the system was capable of. It also allowed me to recognize how very small, incremental changes can create have large effects. At this point, short of going to full size subs, I don't feel I am missing out in this system. I know I can pay 50% more (Utopia/Accuton/etc) for 2% increases in SQ but for now, I feel comfortable saying I have reached my goal.

Audiofrog GB 2 Way vs BLAM 3 Way

As most of this will be pure speculation, I won't dive too deep into this besides a few surface level comments as I have derived my improvements in this area were majorly to do the change from 2 way to 3 way.

2 Way vs 3 Way

I think had I tried a 2 Way with a wideband in my dash I would noticed a smaller step forward in the staging and imaging but the leap forward in having a dedicated midrange on my dash was just wild. I expected a positive change but the sound stage is now locked - this was my number 1 gripe with my previous build, my stage height was inconsistent. It is hard to be overly harsh on the GB60/15 staging being crossed at 1800hz with low door mounting AND didn't realize my passenger midbass was def wired out of phase until literally last week. I really wish I could have tried the GB60 with a GS25 (or something similar) because I feel that's a really nice sweet spot for someone who doesn't have room for a full 3 way. I am actually helping a co worker with a budget build in his Sierra with a GS25 and I am anxious to hear how it sounds next week. With this said, if you can find room for a 3 Way, make it happen, you won't be disappointed - it just offered so much more separation in instruments, consistency and depth.

GB vs BLAM

The GBs are a very fun sounding set of drivers - it's like the Dodge Viper of speakers. They are powerful, punchy and have almost a thick sound to them, music sounds very dramatic (in a good way). It's doesn't make things sounds over Eq'ed, just a bit more dynamic. Synths, acoustic guitars and male vocals did really really well on these drivers. I truly think I would have been satisfied with a GB 3 Way and Nick's tuning skills but I am still quite happy in my purchase of the BLAMs. The BLAMs are much more neutral and crazy transparent to begin with, they are much more of a universal fit across all music types and give you blank slate to EQ from where I felt the GBs were a bit more biased. The biggest 1 for 1 change I do notice is mid bass, getting 120W vs 75W isn't the biggest deal but 8" vs 6" seems move dramatically more air in my doors. Crossing at 60hz vs 80hz also allows for a much fuller low end to come from the front stage - it wouldn't replace the performance of a front sub but but bridges the gap nicely.

Lessons learned

Understanding your own expectations vs budget
I have ~ $11,000 invested in my build and thats purely hardware, misc. tools, connectors - no install. My original budget was $1500 (naive DIYer of 6 months ago). I never took enough time to talk with some experienced installers or DIYers to get better handle on budget vs. goals. I think I would have saved myself dozens of hours of rebuilding the system 5 times and losses on sales had I spent a couple extra months saving and researching. Could I have achieved the same level of performance I have in a smaller budget? I am sure I could have gotten 90% there on 50% the budget but it took me months to realize that. Buy once, cry once - don't sell your goals short and make sure to buy the components your build deserves.

Installation matters, a lot
Not a lot to say hear but sound treat your vehicle well and mount things rigidly. The amount of people that compliment how tight the sound feels and how quiet my truck can be is surprising.

Tuning
Find someone like Nick that knows what they are doing. You will be very surprised what your system may be capable of before you spend loads on a hardware upgrade.
A DSP is the first piece of hardware I should have bought in this process

Learn to sift through knowledge vs opinion
This forum is great and offers the most online knowledge for this subject matter. I have met a ton of folks who have helped guide me or asked me for advice. With that said, take things with a grain of salt - it is so easy to get caught up in the flavor of the week/month/year equipment and can give you a serious bout of second guessing and fear of missing out. (I know, I know - says the guy with a truck full of BLAM and Helix). But being to find solid resources of either people or builds with objective perspectives makes a big difference in keeping you and your build grounded. Just because someone talk a lot does on here doesn't correlate to knowledgeable experience or advice, myself included. Don't fall into the trap of think spending more = sounds more better. Knowing where to invest your money to gain the most value from your build is far more important, regardless of your budget.

Final Build Summary

Front Stage
Midbass - BLAM Signature WS8.100 - 8", powered 120W @ 2 ohms
Midrange - BLAM Multix MS3 - 3"
Tweeter - BLAM Multix TSM 25Mg 45 HR - 1"

Rear Stage
Coaxial - Audiofrog GS62 (Differential Rear Fill)

Subwoofers and Enclosure
JL Audio 12TW3-D8 x 2, wired to 2 ohms
JL Audio Stealthbox Fiberglass Sealed Enclosure

Amplifiers and DSP
Helix V8 mk2 DSP Amp
Helix Conductor mounted in center console

Helix P One
Subs get ~900W @ 2 ohms


Input Signal
Digital (Music) - iPhone 11 Pro Max to Topping D10s to Optical
Analog (Nav and Phone Calls) - LLJ Customs Elite Loopback Harness

Sound Deadening
Doors
Outer metal shell - 85% Coverage, Resonix CLD + CCF
Inner metal shell - 100% Coverage, Soundskins Pro SSK Kit
Inner side of door card - 60% Coverage Resonix CLD + CCF

Back Wall
95% Coverage - Resonix CLD


Custom Work
Dash Pods (Midrange / Tweeter Mounts and Grilles) - @SkizeR (Vanguard Automotive Design)
ABS Speaker Mounts - @DeLander
Custom Conductor Mount - Fabrication by @DeLander, finishing and installation by me

Misc.
Power - 4 Gauge OFC, Stinger
Tessa taped and butyl roped everything I could

And with that, going to close this chapter on this build for a while. Thanks to everyone who followed along and helped me along the way. Don't be shy to reach out with any questions or comments. I truly believe this community thrives on paying it forward.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RickWilson said:


> I was also taken aback by how much frequencies can measure differently from ear to ear location in this freq. range - using a fixed microphone location is really not giving an accurate picture of the full variances.


Yup


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RickWilson said:


> Understanding your own expectations vs budget
> I have ~ $11,000 invested in my build and thats purely hardware, misc. tools, connectors - no install. My original budget was $1500 (naive DIYer of 6 months ago). I never took enough time to talk with some experienced installers or DIYers to get better handle on budget vs. goals. I think I would have saved myself dozens of hours of rebuilding the system 5 times and losses on sales had I spent a couple extra months saving and researching. Could I have achieved the same level of performance I have in a smaller budget? I am sure I could have gotten 90% there on 50% the budget but it took me months to realize that. Buy once, cry once - don't sell your goals short and make sure to buy the components your build deserves.
> 
> Installation matters, a lot
> ...


Big yup


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## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

Great write up and great read! 

I had simular experience, I wasn't used to so much detail and at first felt the tune was slightly bright and a little fatiguing after an hour or so, (I’ve since found my ears are just a little sensitive to the 2k-4K range.)
Well after having multiple people listen to it in person now, some of those guys have been/are in the sound quality competition world, they all pretty much said noooo it's not too bright it sounds great! 

You among a few other people are definitely helping motivate me to eventually go 3-way though. 
One big difference I noticed from the 3-ways at the competition, while my sound stage and imaging sounds terrific and is High and very close to a lot of those 3-ways, what I’m lacking that they had was that punch of the dedicated midbass. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Rick, great write-up, super clear and explanatory, your descriptions makes the reader feel like we're right there in the truck with you!

We share a few similar themes, and that is we both went from being _relatively happy_ with decent sounding 2-Ways to _super happy _with even better sounding 3-ways...!

Also, I had a very low budget as well and three sets of speaker upgrades later, I'm up over $10k as well...

Lastly for anyone struggling with 2-way vs 3-way considerations; save yourself the extra costs of swapping stuff out, the time and the aggravation and just go with the highest quality 3-ways you can afford...

Cheers!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

My restless self decided to use my truck as a test bench for a potential future build. Trying out the Morel MM3 and Supremo Piccolo. They were always the other combo (admittedly MM3/Alto) that I was very curious about as the Morel sound signature seemed to be my “style”. Slapped them in my extra set of dash pods and forfeited keeping oem screw mounts and cleaned out the dash locations on conflicts and went to work.

Started with a little space planing to even see if I could fit the combo up there to try.









Then traced up the drivers on some cardboard and sat them in my existing custom pods and extra oem pods.









Then drilled the oem pods and reinforced the backside of the panel with 1/8” lexan.
















Got the goodies. Too bad I probs won’t even open the MT450 haha.








Side by side to my BLAM set up. The MM3 is not petite









Cleaned out the dash and dropped them in for a test fit. There is a surprising amount of width and depth once it was cleaned out.















With those fancy grilles…they are tacky right now (again, a temp mounting solution) but a rigid set up that should play pretty well with my exiting tunes from. May try the Piccolo on axis in the future. If I would ever decide on putting them in my vehicle, they will fit inside of the pods Nicks made me with a couple modifications.
















Only got an hour of seat time and no chance to touch gains, eq and measure yet but with Nick’s tunes, they sound god damn superb right out of the box. They live up to their sound signature. They are surprisingly sensitive too.

A really, really good first impression.

yes, I have a problem. But I enjoy the hobby so here we are lol.


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

Very nice. That's a combo I've wanted to try out, Now you need some supremo midbass.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RickWilson said:


> yes, I have a problem. But I enjoy the hobby so here we are lol.


Ready for Accuton Automotive yet? 😂


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> Ready for Accuton Automotive yet? 😂


lol. At this point, it seems to be on the trajectory.


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## cowdog360 (Jan 17, 2021)

@RickWilson I think your my car stereo spirit animal lol. I’m on a similar journey in a Tesla Model 3. Started out with just adding a sub and now am probably about to your build 3. I’m also running a Helix V Eight with Audiofrog Gb10/gb25 fronts an Ad Neo W800 midbass.

I’m at the point where I really need to tune it,but I keep asking “should I buy a different sub, shoul I get some BLAM 3 ways, etc”. After reading your progress I think I’m going to focus on the tuning and clean up the install more. My fab skills pretty much suck at the moment.

For tuning how did you mount your UMIK-1?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

cowdog360 said:


> @RickWilson I think your my car stereo spirit animal lol. I’m on a similar journey in a Tesla Model 3. Started out with just adding a sub and now am probably about to your build 3. I’m also running a Helix V Eight with Audiofrog Gb10/gb25 fronts an Ad Neo W800 midbass.
> 
> I’m at the point where I really need to tune it,but I keep asking “should I buy a different sub, shoul I get some BLAM 3 ways, etc”. After reading your progress I think I’m going to focus on the tuning and clean up the install more. My fab skills pretty much suck at the moment.
> 
> For tuning how did you mount your UMIK-1?


it has certainly been an evolution haha.

I think you have a great set of hardware and certainly agree on learning tuning as priority. Having watched and witnessed Nicks tuning, it really reinforced finding the limits of your current hardware and comparing that to your goals before making a change. (Says the guy trialing new morels in his truck…). But I am aiming to learn tuning more in depth and hopefully get to hear some other builds in the next year. Hearing set ups at Vanguard very much helped me understand some the limits/capabilities of both hardware and proper tuning. It is what is inspiring me to try and learn tuning at a higher level.

i think higher quality hardware can just serve as a small headstart on the tuning process (to an extent). With that said, tuning and installaltion certainly offer the biggest opportunity in most builds.

For my UMIK. After watching Nick, I will never believe in the stationary single mic method again. The variation you can get from ear to ear (esp 500k to 3/4K can be significant). So I hold the mic vertical, close to my face, moving from ear to ear, taking a couple seconds to transfer from ear to ear, back and forth. I measure in the 32 averages, save the measurement after about 15 seconds of sweeping the mic back and forth.


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## cowdog360 (Jan 17, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> it has certainly been an evolution haha.
> 
> I think you have a great set of hardware and certainly agree on learning tuning as priority. Having watched and witnessed Nicks tuning, it really reinforced finding the limits of your current hardware and comparing that to your goals before making a change. (Says the guy trialing new morels in his truck…). But I am aiming to learn tuning more in depth and hopefully get to hear some other builds in the next year. Hearing set ups at Vanguard very much helped me understand some the limits/capabilities of both hardware and proper tuning. It is what is inspiring me to try and learn tuning at a higher level.
> 
> ...


i definitely can’t wait to dive in more on my system this summer after my new place is built and I have a garage with room for some proper power tools and saws!

I’ll have to also keep an eye out if you list up your BLAM 3 way setup too lol.
I’ve enjoyed reading your whole adventure. I think sometimes it’s hard to know what the end goal is supposed to be and we easily get caught up in the “I wonder if this is better..” etc. eapecially after not doing car audio for years. I’m in the same boat, it was about 15-20 years ago I last did anything audio related in my car before this one. Starting up again caused me quickly to spiral from “I’ll be fine just adding a little bass” to a whole system replacement lol. At least on the home front I decided to not worry about it, and instead just use really nice soundbars instead. I’ve also come to realize that I’m not really an audiophile as I have a hard time telling the differences between a lot of the really higher end and midrange stuff. Probably for me it’s that I mostly listen to electronic music and not a lot of guitar and instrumental stuff, so Im more interested in “fun” rather than neutrality or transparency.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So over the course of the past couple days and probably 7-8 hours of trial and error and dozens of measurements, I took a real attempt at a full tune of my system with new Morels integrated. I was very humbled during this process and now recognize how skilled and efficient Nick is at tuning. I'm not even sure I'd call myself an amateur at tuning, just someone who has tried to absorb as much as possible from in person, remote tunes, reading and tons of Youtube. Plus a couple good vehicles I have heard at Nick's shop. Please take what I write with a grain of salt. I am confident that some of my methods used are probably pretty barbaric. But here we are:

Quick recap of process I used:

I had a small leg up because I had good time alignment and level matching already done from my previous 3 way tunes which helped lock in staging literally immediately
I took a step from Peter (PSSound) and set some very conservative crossovers (example...HPF of 100hz on the MM3 mids, 1000hz on the Piccolos) to see how wide some of the drivers could play
I have data from other measurements if people are curious on this (12TW3 Subs, BLAM WS8.100, Morel MM3, Morel Supremo Piccolo)
The Piccolos played full down 1100 hz
The MM3s played down to 150 hz

Set my crossovers (all LR4, 24db/oct)
Subs 0-60
Midbass 60-300
Midrange 300-3300
Tweeter 3300+

RTA Settings (UMIK-1)










EQ sequence
Left tweeter
Left mid
Left mid + tweeter
Right tweeter
Right mid
Right mid + tweeter
Both tweeters
Both mids
Both mids + tweeters
Left mb
Left mb + mid/tweet
Right mb
Right mb + mid/tweet
Front stage together
Subs
Subs + Front stage
Rears - Didn't touch these as Nick had set up my rear differential already

I still plan do some minor global EQ touch ups but really happy with the end result that I was able to achieve at 1/6 smoothing

This shows my final tune vs the speakers with only crossovers set. No EQ. Left midbass was by and far my hardest challenge cause the crater sized cancellation I get from the door location blasting into the center console. I was able to get most of it out but didn't want to boost anymore than I had seen Nick do previously. It sums pretty well as a whole but I think I spent half of my tuning time in the 60 to 300 hz range. The holes up in the 1.8k to 4k area were surprisingly easy to EQ away.









This graph depicts my final tune for the system and each pair of EQ'ed drivers on their own. (Forgot to measure both MBs on their own)









Having had good TA and level matching beforehand, my height and centering of my stage is about the size of a softball halfway between my rearview mirror and top of dash. Feels honestly very very close to when I left Nick's shop when he tuned my BLAMs - I was surprised how it kind of just fell into place but I'm hoping that more a result of my method than luck.

I like low end punch a lot and bass feels very natural and proportional to mid bass but I think I may have 2-3 db too much in the 20-70 hz range, I had to drop at least 1.5db on my Conductor on most music but that's a fairly simple fix and only dramatic when listening while parked.

Only have an hour on the tune but I'm happier than a pig in ****. The Piccolos have so much width and depth to their staging. Finally feel like I have given them and the MM3 a chance to shine. I think I honestly can boost bit more top end (12-15K) out of the Piccolos currently (just haven't touched those frequencies at all). Unless I get them on axis, 15K is about their limit which isn't terrible given where they are currently mounted.

Going to give it a couple weeks and some small tweaks here and there before making any decisions but really happy thus far.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Now time to finish off the tune by ear


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## alfmoonspace (Apr 20, 2015)

Hey, excited to hear what you think of the Morels once you get to where you like it, especially compared to the BLAMS.

BLAMS, AF, Morel, all seem good to me! I’m looking forward to running the LIVE in my Subaru!


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## cowdog360 (Jan 17, 2021)

Question - why crossing your door midbass at 60 rather than 80? I’ve seen a lot of stuff that says cross the midbass at 80 and the subs at 60. Just curious.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

cowdog360 said:


> Question - why crossing your door midbass at 60 rather than 80? I’ve seen a lot of stuff that says cross the midbass at 80 and the subs at 60. Just curious.


Because beefy 8" midbass drivers that can handle it with ease, well-deadened doors, and a subwoofer that doesn't sound super great up top.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

I’m curious. Why did you scrap the blams already? Didn’t you just have them installed.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

cowdog360 said:


> Question - why crossing your door midbass at 60 rather than 80? I’ve seen a lot of stuff that says cross the midbass at 80 and the subs at 60. Just curious.





SkizeR said:


> Because beefy 8" midbass drivers that can handle it with ease, well-deadened doors, and a subwoofer that doesn't sound super great up top.


^^^What he said. Without any crossovers they dig down to 40-45hz really without much issue.



Sam b said:


> I’m curious. Why did you scrap the blams already? Didn’t you just have them installed.


It's a tough question to answer because I didn't have anything I didn't like about the BLAM mid/tweet but I have found more that I love about the Morels so far. 

I started with exploring a second build in my gf's Subaru (because I enjoy the hobby too much to not have some project to work on) and decided I would use my truck as a test bench of sorts. I had wanted to try this Morel combo for some time and had some extra parts to try them pretty easily in my truck. Secondly, I really wanted to try tuning a full set up on my own. Now that I have the Morels pretty much there tuning wise, it's pretty hard for me to give them up. I think most of my love for the Morels is falling on the tweeter and smooth nature of the sound signature. They just play much friendlier with my tinnitus in my left ear without needing to cut anything from my tunes frequencies. In order for me to find the happy spot on the BLAMs, for my ears, I have to cut a couple db in the 3-5k range that lost some detail and attack that I can retain in the Morels. If I didn't have the issues with my left ear, I am confident I wouldn't have contemplating swapping out the BLAMs.

The best way I can describe the BLAM MS3 and Mg 45 Tweeter is they are very similar to the Utopia 3.5M and TBM in terms of sound signature but with a bit less control of their "bite". The Utopias also play a touch wider and deeper. The BLAMs are incredibly dynamic and detailed drivers, there is some information they revealed that even the Morel set up doesn't. They are a fantastic set of speakers, just ultimately found the Morels gel better with me personally thus far.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

For reference - X is my Left Ear and O is Right Ear. They actually are pretty balanced again after 8k and up to about 16k then I don't hear. But yeah, like 40db difference in that 3-7k range causes some havoc.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Interesting for sure. The reason I ask is, my buddy just ordered a full Blam setup recently and is installing as we speak. 8,3,tweet I think. Just wanted to see what the issue was. 
I did get to listen to the morels vs blams vs frogs vs ads vs focal K2. And I personally liked the blams the best but the morels were right behind them overall. These were all 6.5s however. Glad to see your enjoying the hobby though. I call it a sickness instead of a hobby though. Nice work though overall


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Sam b said:


> Interesting for sure. The reason I ask is, my buddy just ordered a full Blam setup recently and is installing as we speak. 8,3,tweet I think. Just wanted to see what the issue was.
> I did get to listen to the morels vs blams vs frogs vs ads vs focal K2. And I personally liked the blams the best but the morels were right behind them overall. These were all 6.5s however. Glad to see your enjoying the hobby though. I call it a sickness instead of a hobby though. Nice work though overall


Thanks! I am curious which Morels and BLAMs you heard.

And it's certainly a time (and money) sink of a hobby but car audio is like the amalgamation of my favorite hobbies - woodworking/fabrication, electrical (I do small scale residential electrical on the side) and most importantly music (how we listen and experience it). Truthfully contemplating getting into it as more than a hobby - but not sure what avenue I would take there.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Just a heads up, the "wide and deep" of a Soundstage has almost nothing to so with the drivers themselves. That's on the install and tuning.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Definitely agree nick. 
As for the morels. I think they had the elate carbon series on demo. 3way. 
The blams seemed a little brighter to me, which is kinda what I like The morels definitely were a warmer style sound. I’m sure they sound killer especially w an established tune already to build from.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Sam b said:


> Definitely agree nick.
> As for the morels. I think they had the elate carbon series on demo. 3way.
> The blams seemed a little brighter to me, which is kinda what I like The morels definitely were a warmer style sound. I’m sure they sound killer especially w an established tune already to build from.


Yeah - Nick's Utopia set up I heard has mostly on axis tweeters which I neglected to mention before. 

I am curious if it was the Alto or MT450 tweet. I think the Alto is a damn close equivalent to the Piccolo but that's in the Elate Carbon Pro set.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

I really wanna hear some utopia at some point in my life.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Sam b said:


> I really wanna hear some utopia at some point in my life.


They were exceptional. They caught me off guard (in a good way) with how snappy and dynamic they are. I also attribute this to Nick extracting their potential via tuning.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RickWilson said:


> They were exceptional. They caught me off guard (in a good way) with how snappy and dynamic they are. I also attribute this to Nick extracting their potential via tuning.


My install needs work though. Itll be better soon enough


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So from my other thread HERE, some of you may have seen that I was trying to weigh my options around getting custom pillars vs modifying (well really rebuilding from scratch) my pods from Nick around the MM3 and Piccolo. I talked with both Nick and Jim from MTI about this and seeing as I have ultimately tried the performance of dash mounted mid/tweets firing into the windshield in the current set up - I decided to give some custom A pillars a try and placed my order yesterday with MTI. The pillars will house both the MM3 and Piccolo and eliminate the grab handles.

I am trying to decide on the final color scheme. I always air on the side of stealth so my safe choice is Option #1 below but was curious folks thought of the other options. Option 2 is something I think ties well with the dark chrome trim rings around vents/HU in the dash and the orange is a tie in to the seats but I am not if I feel it is tacky or not.

My photoshop mock ups:










Interior of truck:









Guessing I should have these back in 4-5 weeks or so.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

My vote is option 1 or 2. I also prefer a stealth look but the silver trim rings do blend nicely with the dash so I also lean that way. Option 2 also looks stealth


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Definitely option 2. That’s fantastic


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

Option one or two will look good. There is nothing stealth about dash or pillar pods.


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## SNCTMPL (Nov 23, 2014)

I think option two ties in the best.


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

1 or 2 - I’m leaning towards #2


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

Option 2 👌🏿


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## Willbo (Mar 23, 2014)

Option 2


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

Nice work, like how everything looks so cleanly made...not a common practise here


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

My guess is that you will enjoy the sound much more than bouncing off the windshield...!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

A bit off topic but needed to scratch my audio addiciton in a new way ahead of a vacation to Oregon. It started with - how can I bring the sound of my truck system with me cause my Airpod Pros, while decent, don't even come close to hitting the mark. Spent a week of reading reviews, forums and chatted with a few folks and skipped the "let me try a billion entry/mid level options" that I did with my truck and bought two pairs of IEMs to trial. It's already a no brainer which I am keeping but still wanted to have a couple different references.

Pair #1 - Campfire Audio Andromeda S - if I had to put an equivalent speaker line for these I would say these are Focal K2s of the IEM world. They are really good but compared to the other pair I ordered, I won't be holding on to these.
Pair #2 - 64 Audio U12Ts - these are consistently in the headphone community's top 5 of IEMs, regardless of price. They are the "jack of all trades, master of none" in the high end IEM world and have knocked my socks off so far. Running them with an ALO Pilot DAC and the 64 Audio Pearl Premium Cable (came free with it) currently and the imaging just wild. They are also nearly unnoticeable while wearing (have had them in for 5 hours straight without fatigue as I type this). Also have no clue how they fit 12 driver per ear IEM (let alone the 18 driver model they offer).

Mods - if this too off topic, I can start a new thread.

Picture porn.









64 Audio U12Ts















Campfire Audio Andromeda S
















MTI is underway on my pillars and should have them back in a month or so. So until then!


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Interesting. This is something I’m looking to get next for work. I’m gonna check out the campfire model


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Sam b said:


> Interesting. This is something I’m looking to get next for work. I’m gonna check out the campfire model


Feel free to DM with any questions - I dove deep into the Campfire line up before I explored other brands - they have a ton of offerings and a very unique aesthetic and methodology. The Andromeda 2020 is their flagship/most popular but tends to lack bass and sub bass but aside from that, only the Sony IEM MR9 can compete at the $1,000 price point.


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## alfmoonspace (Apr 20, 2015)

Have you tried any of the Chord dacs? For portability, I use the mojo (original one). Love it.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Love it! IEMs are something I have enjoyed, but I didn’t get much of a chance to compare - I chose 64Audio and stayed with them. I bet those 12t’s are amazing!

I’m using the 6t’s out of an A&K player. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

alfmoonspace said:


> Have you tried any of the Chord dacs? For portability, I use the mojo (original one). Love it.


I have not tried the Mojo def it seems to have a great reputation. Only experiences I have with DACs are my Modi 2 desktop dac, ALO Pilot (used today and very impressed) and tomorrow I will get the Dragonfly Cobalt to try out which should help the U12Ts open up. 



bertholomey said:


> Love it! IEMs are something I have enjoyed, but I didn’t get much of a chance to compare - I chose 64Audio and stayed with them. I bet those 12t’s are amazing!
> 
> I’m using the 6t’s out of an A&K player.
> 
> ...


Hell yeah! This is making me contemplate getting DAP but I prefer the convenience of a single device for music and syncing.

Yeah, 64 Audio certainly knows what they are doing cause they are emotionally moving to listen to. Very excited to get more burn in done on a couple cross country flights.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> A bit off topic but needed to scratch my audio addiction in a new way ahead of a vacation to Oregon.


Oregon, huh?, well if you make it down to So. Cal., lemme know, I've got sumthin' I want you to hear.... 

Cheers


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Bored with no car audio to work on until I get my pillars back. Hopefully this helps someone.

Orange = Signal Chain
Blue = Amplification
Green = Speakers + Subs


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

RickWilson said:


> View attachment 335555
> 
> 
> Bored with no car audio to work on until I get my pillars back. Hopefully this helps someone.
> ...


NICE! Make me one too please if you get really board!


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## M_Mark28 (Mar 11, 2021)

Just out of curiosity, is a single 4 gauge power wire to the distro block enough for both of those amps ?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

M_Mark28 said:


> Just out of curiosity, is a single 4 gauge power wire to the distro block enough for both of those amps ?


Hasn't been an issue whatsoever, the run is about 13' long and if i could somehow make my system draw 100% power at 130 amps (I doubt I ever pull north of 40 amps), it would still be fine with 4 gauge.


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## M_Mark28 (Mar 11, 2021)

Sounds good, love the attention to detail in your build


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## steelwindmachine (May 15, 2017)

@RickWilson - who is doing your pillars?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

steelwindmachine said:


> @RickWilson - who is doing your pillars?


MTI out of Texas. Kind of the truck sound gurus in the US and have the ability to use a local, same model truck to do test fitments with.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

RickWilson said:


> MTI out of Texas. Kind of the truck sound gurus in the US and have the ability to use a local, same model truck to do test fitments with.


They’re local to me…we’re trying to fit a shop visit into my work schedule to laser scan my dash then do my pods all on the computer and 3D printed. I’m pretty stoked to see how it all works. In a perfect world I’ll at least have some test pieces in place before the comp at their shop in August.


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

I tried to buy a sub enclosure from MTI, but they didn't want to ship it .


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

audionow said:


> I tried to buy a sub enclosure from MTI, but they didn't want to ship it .


That’s odd I’m in IL and mine was definitely shipped. I didn’t order it first hand but i have the box it came in.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

audionow said:


> I tried to buy a sub enclosure from MTI, but they didn't want to ship it .


MTI ships to California and everyone hates California


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## Willbo (Mar 23, 2014)

RickWilson said:


> So over the course of the past couple days and probably 7-8 hours of trial and error and dozens of measurements, I took a real attempt at a full tune of my system with new Morels integrated. I was very humbled during this process and now recognize how skilled and efficient Nick is at tuning. I'm not even sure I'd call myself an amateur at tuning, just someone who has tried to absorb as much as possible from in person, remote tunes, reading and tons of Youtube. Plus a couple good vehicles I have heard at Nick's shop. Please take what I write with a grain of salt. I am confident that some of my methods used are probably pretty barbaric. But here we are:
> 
> Quick recap of process I used:
> 
> ...


Hey there Rick. Gotta ask how you are doing your eq. Are you using the auto eq in helix or doing the adjustments and making them manually or using REW to create a file? Going to start my tuning in the next couple of weeks so that I can at least have something a little decent until I can make an appointment with Nick. Thanks in advance.


----------



## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

RickWilson said:


> A bit off topic but needed to scratch my audio addiciton in a new way ahead of a vacation to Oregon. It started with - how can I bring the sound of my truck system with me cause my Airpod Pros, while decent, don't even come close to hitting the mark. Spent a week of reading reviews, forums and chatted with a few folks and skipped the "let me try a billion entry/mid level options" that I did with my truck and bought two pairs of IEMs to trial. It's already a no brainer which I am keeping but still wanted to have a couple different references.
> 
> Pair #1 - Campfire Audio Andromeda S - if I had to put an equivalent speaker line for these I would say these are Focal K2s of the IEM world. They are really good but compared to the other pair I ordered, I won't be holding on to these.
> Pair #2 - 64 Audio U12Ts - these are consistently in the headphone community's top 5 of IEMs, regardless of price. They are the "jack of all trades, master of none" in the high end IEM world and have knocked my socks off so far. Running them with an ALO Pilot DAC and the 64 Audio Pearl Premium Cable (came free with it) currently and the imaging just wild. They are also nearly unnoticeable while wearing (have had them in for 5 hours straight without fatigue as I type this). Also have no clue how they fit 12 driver per ear IEM (let alone the 18 driver model they offer).
> ...


Nice! The U12Ts should take you to audio nirvana while your truck is away. 

I try to keep my portable/travel setup simple and minimalistic. I have a chunky iBasso DAP that is amazing, but for a more pocket-able setup I just roll with the smartphone (1tb microSD for files, or streaming) and the AKG N5005 IEMs via 2.5mm balanced cable from the Hidizs S9 PRO DAC/amp dongle, or the N5005's included balanced wireless BT Apt-X adapter.

Once I finally found the right ear tips, the N5005 blow me away and bring a smile to my face with their dynamics/tonality/resolution/micro detail. 

Many people disregard and simply overlook these AKGs, but they were developed in tandem with Dr. Sean Olive's input for their design, driver selection, and tuning.

They were initially priced at $999, but with so much competition from other more esoteric and boutique brands "that must be better", they didn't sell well, and in a few very rare instances you could find them on the AKG website for as little as $299, which is a steal IMO.

And yes, MTI ships their custom subwoofer boxes, pillars, etc just about everywhere.












Have a great vacation, and I'm looking forward to seeing what MTI has created for your truck!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Willbo said:


> Hey there Rick. Gotta ask how you are doing your eq. Are you using the auto eq in helix or doing the adjustments and making them manually or using REW to create a file? Going to start my tuning in the next couple of weeks so that I can at least have something a little decent until I can make an appointment with Nick. Thanks in advance.


my tuning for this build has not been using auto eq (new or old). Just using REW and entering the EQ filters manually. I used 1/6 smoothing for Eq purposes.


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## Willbo (Mar 23, 2014)

RickWilson said:


> my tuning for this build has not been using auto eq (new or old). Just using REW and entering the EQ filters manually. I used 1/6 smoothing for Eq purposes.


Thank you sir. I do the same thing but am new to helix so I wasn’t sure how well the auto eq worked. I’ll stick to what works for me. Thanks!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Willbo said:


> Thank you sir. I do the same thing but am new to helix so I wasn’t sure how well the auto eq worked. I’ll stick to what works for me. Thanks!


I will be def trying out the new AutoEq when I get my pillars back and need to re-tune my front stage. I'll see how it turns out vs manually tuning with REW and report back.


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## gospeed81 (7 mo ago)

Oh man, great build from the start, like the underseat amp tray way more than what I came up with for behind the seat.

Sorry to see your baby dinged up, glad they got it shining like new.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

gospeed81 said:


> Oh man, great build from the start, like the underseat amp tray way more than what I came up with for behind the seat.
> 
> Sorry to see your baby dinged up, glad they got it shining like new.


I appreciate that! It's worked out well.

Truck has been fixed for a few months - can't even tell where things were replaced thankfully.


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## gospeed81 (7 mo ago)

Apologies, still catching up on the thread.

Interesting in how you like the AudioFrogs. I'm looking at the GB40 to possibly fill in between an 8" and 2.5", and debating if 4way active up front is worth it


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

gospeed81 said:


> Apologies, still catching up on the thread.
> 
> Interesting in how you like the AudioFrogs. I'm looking at the GB40 to possibly fill in between an 8" and 2.5", and debating if 4way active up front is worth it


No worries - in general a 4 way is generally not best practice. Depends on the current drivers you have, how they are installed, and how they measure. You in theory should be able to find a combo that allows you to cross an 8 with a 2.5. GB25s I know often get crossed at 250-300hz and my 8" drivers play well above 300hz.


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Man, Nick ( @SkizeR ) absolutely nailed these. Blown away and will be up early tomorrow to get the 3 way installed. UPS decided to deliver at 5:30 pm today sadly but it will be an early morning.
> View attachment 330057
> View attachment 330058
> 
> ...


Where did you get the metal grille material?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

619Tundra said:


> Where did you get the metal grille material?


You’d have to reach out to @SkizeR as he made these, pressed grilles included. 

You can also look at Mobile Solutions’ website as I know they sell some raw grille material


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Here’s a source 









Small Hexagon Aluminum Grill Mesh Sheets by customcargrills


Small Hexagon Grill Mesh made from expanded aluminum. This small opening mesh is available in Silver or Black and in sizes from 6in x 36in to 12in x 48in.



www.customcargrills.com


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## NaamanF (Jan 18, 2006)

I assume you are using the Topping D10s because you wanted to have the Bluetooth module in the Helix vs the USB module? Does the Helix mix in the cars audio or auto switch to it when it makes a sound? I'm planning a very similar install but with the USB module in a 2022 Ram.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

NaamanF said:


> I assume you are using the Topping D10s because you wanted to have the Bluetooth module in the Helix vs the USB module? Does the Helix mix in the cars audio or auto switch to it when it makes a sound? I'm planning a very similar install but with the USB module in a 2022 Ram.


I used the Topping primarily because I wanted a digital, flat signal source into my Helix. Truthfully, with my current set up, I wouldn’t need the BT or USB card to have it function the same exact way. I bought the BT module for future wireless tuning and a potential alternate source if I use the V8 in another build at some point. 

The auto switching is seamless and soundless. The source swaps completely and does not mix aka when I get a phone call, the Helix swaps to the high level input and within 2 seconds of the call ending swaps back to my music (digital signal). The only extra step about using a Topping is, with an iPhone, when I first get in my truck, I have to select the Topping as the output but it’s a set it once and done thing.


----------



## NaamanF (Jan 18, 2006)

RickWilson said:


> I used the Topping primarily because I wanted a digital, flat signal source into my Helix. Truthfully, with my current set up, I wouldn’t need the BT or USB card to have it function the same exact way. I bought the BT module for future wireless tuning and a potential alternate source if I use the V8 in another build at some point.
> 
> The auto switching is seamless and soundless. The source swaps completely and does not mix aka when I get a phone call, the Helix swaps to the high level input and within 2 seconds of the call ending swaps back to my music (digital signal). The only extra step about using a Topping is, with an iPhone, when I first get in my truck, I have to select the Topping as the output but it’s a set it once and done thing.


I’m guessing you don’t use CarPlay then? I’m considering have a phone dedicated to music only and my normal phone for CarPlay.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

NaamanF said:


> I’m guessing you don’t use CarPlay then? I’m considering have a phone dedicated to music only and my normal phone for CarPlay.


That's correct, no Carplay. I thought this would be a bigger deal than it actually was. From where my phone is mounted, it works more than fine for navigation. My phone still connects to my HU via BT for music controls/display/phone calls.

Wireless Carplay does actually still work with this set up but at the time of my install, something weird in iOS would make my phone swap back from the Topping to the BT output every time I swapped songs which isn't tolerable. There is a known issue concerning this that as to do with navigation notifications via Waze/Google/Apple Maps that cause it. No clue if it is resolved yet but I've gotten so used to how my set up works that I don't really notice/miss Carplay really.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

In other news - I just got word from Jim Skaggs that my custom MTI pillars will be shipping tomorrow. Cannot wait to see how they turned out, hopefully will get them installed and tuned later this week.


----------



## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

RickWilson said:


> In other news - I just got word from Jim Skaggs that my custom MTI pillars will be shipping tomorrow. Cannot wait to see how they turned out, hopefully will get them installed and tuned later this week.


seems mine aren't the only ones running behind


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

slowride said:


> seems mine aren't the only ones running behind


Yeah I’ll be about 2 and little months from shipping my pillars out but given its out of my control when they would have another similar to use for test fitments, I can’t really complain much. I’m confident it will be worth the wait. If not, Nick is only a call away to make new dash pods.


----------



## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RickWilson said:


> Yeah I’ll be about 2 and little months from shipping my pillars out but given its out of my control when they would have another similar to use for test fitments, I can’t really complain much. I’m confident it will be worth the wait. If not, Nick is only a call away to make new dash pods.


I have this truck here right now if anyone wants these made, they wont even need to ship their pillars/dash grills out. 
7/11/22, truck will be here for another week or so.


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> I have this truck here right now if anyone wants these made, they wont even need to ship their pillars/dash grills out.
> 7/11/22, truck will be here for another week or so.


Let me know if you get a 14-18 Sierra/Silverado in.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

clange2485 said:


> Let me know if you get a 14-18 Sierra/Silverado in.


same!


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

I've asked nick about them for the 14-18 silverado-sierra to.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

clange2485 said:


> Let me know if you get a 14-18 Sierra/Silverado in.


What makes you think that I remember to put underwear on every day? Lol


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> What makes you think that I remember to put underwear on every day? Lol


I hear ya, I’ll put something on my calendar to bug you once a month 😁 Eventually it might work out. Seems like I’m not the only guy interested, might not be a bad idea to post what vehicles you have coming into the shop ahead of time and see if others are interested in something you’re already making and make multiples.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So just got a teaser pic of my pillars. I’ll have them in hand tomorrow. The silver trim looks a bit darker in person I’m told. Very, very excited.


----------



## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

Wow, those look nice. Was wondering how they were going to get the mm3 and piccolo in there. The pods looked small on there website.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Very, very happy. They also weigh about 3 times as much as they originally did. Should be get them installed later tonight. The silver/grey matches/integrates much better in person.


















































A couple paint blemishes from bubble wrap on one of the grab handle covers during shipping that MTI and I are working through but should be an easy remedy.
EDIT: MTI is making me a replacement passenger grab handle insert panel to replace the one with blemishes, they are minor but very much appreciate them stepping up to the plate to make it right.








I'll end up a bit more on axis than I expected too as well. Certainly enough angle to prevent the drivers from facing each other directly.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

A little teaser while I wrap up


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So install went a bit slower than expected, mostly due to the fact these pillars are so much heavier and more rigid that fitting them into my OEM dash covers flexed them pretty heavily (because I removed one blind clip from a previous install) so I had to reinforce them a bit from below.

With that said, I'm so stoked with how they turned out. They need a tune obviously but I ran a couple songs through just to test and make sure everything was working correctly but I'll be tuning and posting measurements tomorrow.

Also ran out of light and need to clean my windshield before some beauty shots tomorrow.

But some pics. First, a quick OEM vs new pillars comparison.
















Then got the drivers out of my dash and mounted in the pillars. They take up some serious real estate.
















Both pillars ready to mount









Then finally got the driver's side dropped in before I lost light outside. I feel they integrate with the interior pretty naturally. My replacement grab handles covers are going to have a matte black outer trim instead of silver which I think will help tone down the contrast just enough for me and bring the focus back to the speaker pod itself.









A bit closer...









Then from the driver's seat, I will not get tired of this view.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

A quick before/after. Again, better pics coming tomorrow.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So this post is more for research purposes. I took a few measurements this morning to see how the pillars responded vs dash mounted (firing into windshield) locations. Some interesting results, finding that there are benefits to each but both would be perfectly acceptable to work with. Everything is 1/12 smoothing.

I can't comment on imaging and stage right now because I've only been able to listen using my old tune designed for dash locations.

*TWEETERS - NO EQ, 1K LR4 HP Only*

Surprisingly, the dash locations offer a bit more consistency but nothing really concerns me about being able to boost out the dip @ 5K. You will see in my later measurements that I intended to cross at 3K but this is showing I probably have some ability to cross lower if needed. Not sure I see the benefit tho.









*MIDS - NO EQ, 100HZ HP Only*

This is a more drastic change. There is fair amount of cancellations going on in the left MR from 300-400 but when you see both tweet and mids measured with cross overs below, I will mostly be focusing on cutting energy from lower end of the mid. This should make fixing the holes at 320 and 400 pretty straighforward. I do gain more consistency from 1.5 to 3K which was a trouble area in the dash mounting location









*MIDs + TWEETERS - CROSSOVERS 300 - 3000HZ, LR4*

This first graph shows the new pillar mounted locations with crossovers, no eq. My tweeters need a bit more overall gain and I will most likely cut my mids a touch. Not the worst starting point and I think is a better configuration in blending mid to tweet but not sure yet on blending midbass to mid yet.









Lastly, to compare, this is same set of crossovers, no eq with drivers mounted in the dash locations.









I should have them tuned up this afternoon and will post some results and impressions then.

Currently my truck measures like this with my old tune lol - it's a damn roller coaster from 300Hz up.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Loving all of the data you are posting. The measurements confirm something I was guessing


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> Loving all of the data you are posting. The measurements confirm something I was guessing


Seeing as half this forum seems owns a truck, I hoped it would be moderately useful lol. What were you guessing?


----------



## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> A quick before/after. Again, better pics coming tomorrow.
> View attachment 340116
> View attachment 340115


Man those look great! I agree with you, think black trim around the handles will be better looking. 
Really enjoying your build log all the information you’re sharing. 

I want to get these guys or someone to make pillars for me where the tweeter is closest to the inside the cab and not down in the corner of the windshield then the mid driver and both on axis. So basically the tweeters and mids swapped mounting locations so tweeters are closest to interior of cab then mids then windshield.
I know a few guys with F150's that have the ones from them with the tweeter in the corner of the dash and they look more off axis, they all seem to be dealing with some wonky stuff they’re trying to tune out.

really looking forward to hearing your thoughts after you get it dialed in.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Knocked a very rough tune over my lunch break today and haven't even gotten a chance to listen to music yet but certainly wasn't too bad to get here. Probs 30-35 min into this so bear with me.

Biggest challenges are right tweeter and left mid. Right tweeter is not very receptive to boosting in the 5K range, takes about 5-6db of boost before it stalls, any more boost applied doesn't have any effect really. It also doesn't like to respond to cuts at 3.8K too much either. Nick shot me a couple of experiments to try out. I will most likely start a fresh tune when I can get a few hours and will most likely use the 5K dip in my tweeter as my target output and cut down to it. I have been just trying to avoid losing output best I can (hence boosting my tweets).

My tweets sum well together, just need a shelf filter to calm down from 6.5k on. Mids are ok right now, still need to spend some time 300-600 and my right mid/tweet need some cleaning up at the cross over.

I also need to put some gain back into my mids.

It was quick and dirty but should give me a chance to evaluate some staging and imaging over the next few days. 

In the 30 seconds I listened to the Sex and Candy by Maroon 5, I know it was centering super well and didn't feel any more narrow stage width wise (which about a dozen people told me to expect).


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RickWilson said:


> Seeing as half this forum seems owns a truck, I hoped it would be moderately useful lol. What were you guessing?


That the dash would have a much more predictable response out of the gate 😬


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Sirikenewtron said:


> Man those look great! I agree with you, think black trim around the handles will be better looking.
> Really enjoying your build log all the information you’re sharing.


I appreciate it - I know when I was new on here, build logs were the place I went hunting for some real world application tips and tricks - so just trying to pay it forward!



Sirikenewtron said:


> I want to get these guys or someone to make pillars for me where the tweeter is closest to the inside the cab and not down in the corner of the windshield then the mid driver and both on axis. So basically the tweeters and mids swapped mounting locations so tweeters are closest to interior of cab then mids then windshield.
> I know a few guys with F150's that have the ones from them with the tweeter in the corner of the dash and they look more off axis, they all seem to be dealing with some wonky stuff they’re trying to tune out.
> 
> really looking forward to hearing your thoughts after you get it dialed in.


I think the only way you'll get this type of configuration in our trucks to work (both mid and tweeter on axis) is tweeter in your sail and mid in your pillars. Don't be shy of placing the mid firing into the windshield, both the BLAM MS3 and MM3 worked super well in this configuration and responded well to tuning.



SkizeR said:


> That the dash would have a much more predictable response out of the gate 😬


Yup lol


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

this build just keeps getting better. i vote to keep your truck! those pillars look great.


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

Looking pretty nice, I say keep the truck 2.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

I've been sending him updates on my volvo that make him think otherwise 😂


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> I've been sending him updates on my volvo that make him think otherwise 😂


nothing wrong with both!


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

Beautiful work. I'm a little jealous. I wish I had my truck back. Keep the truck and get a used sports car. And take a break from car audio and take those Christmas lights down. Great work.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Did an artsy B&W shoot with my DSLR. Still extremely pleased with the end result.

















































Some first impressions - so far my tune is meh right now, I need to re-measure TA (eyeballed the change in distance) and I haven't spent more than 5 min on mids. With that said, staging has been great so far, I was concerned the orientation would cause narrowing and tunneling of the stage but it actually may have gotten a touch wider (I was previously using StageXpander on medium, now it is turned off). Imaging is still really good, maybe even a touch cleaner and sharper without so many reflections but I doubt I could tell the difference in imaging with a blind A/B test.

I am going to deep dive into tuning on Wednesday and clean up the mids, crossovers and TA and I should be done for a while.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Finally got about 2-3 hours today to take a clean slate on my mids and tweets, tune wise. Also cleaned up my midbass and subs to try blend a bit better. Overall, this tune is my best attempt so far. Feels very dialed in, tight and images really well.

With that said, this tune offered some challenges mostly in the way EQ on the left midrange and midrange summing. But just going to do quick run through and comment on some things that stand out.

Red was my target curve (+13 db @50hz).

Mids and Tweets - Before and After, 1/12 Smoothing








Based on what I have understood from an install standpoint so far, most predictable (tuning wise) install would have been mids firing into dash and tweeters on axis in pillars, crossed somewhere between 2500 and 3000. 

My left midrange uses 29 bands of EQ to get there while the other 3 drivers need about 11-12 parametric EQs and a handful of fine eq after some RTA. I contemplated moving my crossovers to 400 hz cause that left mid was getting really odd to EQ. I ended up taking a step back, resetting my EQ and organizing my gains a bit to allow for a better starting point to EQ from. Still took about half my tuning time. 

Overall though, very happy with how tight things ended up getting.

Summing Mids









Oddly enough, my mids despite being nearly flat at 1/12 individually, they didn't sum very well. Thankfully, virtual channels came in huge here to make some final global adjustments to dial them in.

Mids + Tweets (Summed)









Final result of mids and tweets summed and cleaned up at the crossovers. Again, happy with the turnout.

Front Stage








Still a little hot in the midbass and needs some clean up at 200-300 but there was some gnarly peaks in my midbass that had been left unattended, much better now.

Final EQ








Sounds awesome so far. Also had to fix a couple of peaks around 40-50hz that I noticed immediate improvement in just a few songs.

Now to finalize what I want to do for a new sub stage as I plan on holding to the truck for probably at least another year.

I get about 4 hours of seat time tomorrow and I will share some thoughts about how it sounds. TLDR, my sound stage sounds almost exactly the same as before but I know my tune has improved, just can't attribute the improvement to the new pillars. Do I regret buying the pillars? No, aesthetically they make me smile every day but you can achieve the same end result with dash pods from Nick at 1/3 of the price. 

Only improvement I can see is getting tweeter on axis and extending closer to 20K.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Man the pillars are beautiful! Have you thought about trying the mid back in the dash and tweeters where they are now? Mids in the dash is not a bad thing. May be worth trying.


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

Nice eq results, i need to spend more time on mine.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

DaveG said:


> Man the pillars are beautiful! Have you thought about trying the mid back in the dash and tweeters where they are now? Mids in the dash is not a bad thing. May be worth trying.


At this point, I’ll keep them where they are as I did try the dash location already and the expense of getting the mid back in the dash would require new pillars plus getting some new oem parts. Performance wise after tuning, I haven’t seen an appreciable difference with either configuration.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Got about 4.5 hours behind the wheel today and I think I have my truck as good as it has ever sounded.

Certainly the best blended and consistent tune I’ve done on my own.

Front stage imaging is so stable consistent song to song. Vocals are planted dead center of my dash. Also instrumental realism sounds super natural.

Backing off my boosts in my midbass and subs made the biggest difference tho. Was much more consistent in terms of front feeling bass.

Though my only real complaint is the realism and depth of my low end (sub 45hz). It sounds excellent in about 70% of the music I listen to but we have a plan to address that.

Wish I was at SVR so I could see how it stacks up. Next year for sure.


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Got about 4.5 hours behind the wheel today and I think I have my truck as good as it has ever sounded.
> 
> Certainly the best blended and consistent tune I’ve done on my own.
> 
> ...


That’s great hear and I’m sure it sounded really good before so that’s saying a lot.

I also wish i was there, I don’t think my truck would score very well 🤣 but the experience alone plus being able to hear the best of the best would be totally worth the trip. Next year🤞

I got a couple pictures so far. I bet you’ve heard a couple of these.


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## OzAudioGmc (Dec 27, 2020)

clange2485 said:


> That’s great hear and I’m sure it sounded really good before so that’s saying a lot.
> 
> I also wish i was there, I don’t think my truck would score very well 🤣 but the experience alone plus being able to hear the best of the best would be totally worth the trip. Next year🤞
> 
> ...


I tried talking you into coming. 😆


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

OzAudioGmc said:


> I tried talking you into coming. 😆


I know! And I should have listened but my family seems to enjoy living indoors, and my stupid job making me work and all. I’ll be more prepared next year and keep them pictures coming! 😁


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

clange2485 said:


> That’s great hear and I’m sure it sounded really good before so that’s saying a lot.
> 
> I also wish i was there, I don’t think my truck would score very well 🤣 but the experience alone plus being able to hear the best of the best would be totally worth the trip. Next year🤞
> 
> ...


Edit, misread lol.


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> Edit, misread lol.


lol what did you read? It’s all good I’m not sensitive.

I wouldn’t be mad if your taking some videos for those of us who couldn’t make it there 😁 

The ones you still have available of Erin & Natan’s cars are fun to watch.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

clange2485 said:


> lol what did you read? It’s all good I’m not sensitive.
> 
> I wouldn’t be mad if your taking some videos for those of us who couldn’t make it there 😁
> 
> The ones you still have available of Erin & Natan’s cars are fun to watch.


I said come say hi but I didn't see that those weren't your photos


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## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

clange2485 said:


> That’s great hear and I’m sure it sounded really good before so that’s saying a lot.
> 
> I also wish i was there, I don’t think my truck would score very well  but the experience alone plus being able to hear the best of the best would be totally worth the trip. Next year
> 
> ...


Nice!
I've seen/heard a couple of those vehicles in person. Brian Mitchell's Cadillac ewww wee


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So been on tear over the past few days trying to decide what to do with my sub stage and how to power which domino effected into behind the seat amp rack layout and so on. So I think modeled 12 or 13 subs with the help of @daloudin through various power situations and overall got to learn a fair amount about how the parameters of a sub (or any speaker for that matter) interact with their environment and power. Everything from Illusion C12XLs, GB12, Morel Ultimo Ti, Esotar 1200, Scanspeak 32 Revelator, Dayton HO, Raven 12XL running of either 1500W 1 ohm Class D (my current P One) or exploring AB sub power via Mosconi Zero 3 (1850W @ 2ohms). 

With available air, modeling, installer experience feedback and lastly, dollar for dollar investment I'd be making, I'm heading towards a pair of GB12D4s running off my P One @ 1500W with ~3.0 CF. They will be upfired.

I found @SNCTMPL just today who's box is very similar in size of what my box will be (and has GB12s), just a bit more air in the current gen trucks. Here is his:









Dived in with Jim from MTI.

He passed along this photo of a Stage 4 box (with upfire and lift) to give me reference:









I will be going with the big face front panel and some subtle etching. Sample from their site:









Then finally I sketched this and am waiting to hear back if they can integrate a small recess and beauty panel for me P One becauseeeeeeee I am planning to put an Ultra + 2 4 Ch A/B Amps behind my rear seat later this year. Just waiting on some other info/decisions to come back.

My sketches:








More similar to SM's truck









We will see where we end up when I hear back


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> modeled 12 or 13 subs with the help of @daloudin


For those of you who will inevitably ask - it was WAY more than this... There were 14 in the model (see screen clip below) that we discussed most, but before that we filtered through practically every available (and even some that are no longer available) 12" Sub (even the ones that would not fit due to depth restrictions) to see what would work best given the 2 x 12 @ 1 Ohm setup. The list you see are the ones that made it to the final round after things like enclosure size and power level filtered out a bunch of other ones (W7, Fi, Helix, IA, Sundown, Focal, DD, Earthquake, B2 and multiple other lines/models from each.) There were louder and deeper results than the GB12 but between availability, affordability, installability, xmax, cabin gain, box gain and ALL the other variables we discussed the Frogs checked off the most boxes for him.

Glad I could help and don't hesitate to reach out again... -D


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

daloudin said:


> For those of you who will inevitably ask - it was WAY more than this... There were 14 in the model (see screen clip below) that we discussed most, but before that we filtered through practically every available (and even some that are no longer available) 12" Sub (even the ones that would not fit due to depth restrictions) to see what would work best given the 2 x 12 @ 1 Ohm setup. The list you see are the ones that made it to the final round after things like enclosure size and power level filtered out a bunch of other ones (W7, Fi, Helix, IA, Sundown, Focal, DD, Earthquake, B2 and multiple other lines/models from each.) There were louder and deeper results than the GB12 but between availability, affordability, installability, xmax, cabin gain, box gain and ALL the other variables we discussed the Frogs checked off the most boxes for him.
> 
> Glad I could help and don't hesitate to reach out again... -D
> View attachment 341772


So what sub came out on top?


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

619Tundra said:


> So what sub came out on top?


PM Sent - I don't want to derail this thread.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

619Tundra said:


> So what sub came out on top?


From a pure modeling standpoint. The Scanspeak 32W/4878T00 looks phenomenal but along with the C12XL, requires me to get into a larger power sub amp (for 2 ohm power) which has become a major driving factor, not necessarily because of cost, but because of amp size. Going to a pair of A/B 4 channel amps hold a higher priority for me here and they will occupy nearly all of the back wall of my truck + a Helix Ultra.

The Dayton and Arc blacks also modeled well for low low extension but are missing the top end bass I'd like.

While it does look like the GB is lacking in output visually, there is only about 1.5db delta (and 2hz of extra extension) from the Scan to the GB and I am not looking SPL by any mean here.










I also spoke with a few folks who had installed a fair amount of these subs and explained my ultimate goals and most pointed me to either the C12XL or the GB12. Given air and power needs of the C12XL, I settled on the GB12 being my jack of all trades, master of none sub.

Lastly - I will most likely trial a pair of Morel Ultimo Ti 12s as I'm just plain curious and don't feel there has been a lot of representation of those subs in the community and I want to provide some realistic feedback on how they would compare to the popular GBs.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

For reference, my new hypothetical amp rack behind my rear seat will have something like this:









There's really no place to fit a powerful mono amp back there and trying to place my Ultra horizontally under my rear seat (there's a small "shelf" there) doesn't interest me because of the amount of wiring that comes in and out of the Ultra would get quite messy and a pain to service.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> From a pure modeling standpoint. The Scanspeak 32W/4878T00 looks phenomenal but along with the C12XL, requires me to get into a larger power sub amp (for 2 ohm power) which has become a major driving factor, not necessarily because of cost, but because of amp size. Going to a pair of A/B 4 channel amps hold a higher priority for me here and they will occupy nearly all of the back wall of my truck + a Helix Ultra.
> 
> The Dayton and Arc blacks also modeled well for low low extension but are missing the top end bass I'd like.
> 
> ...


That screenshot is with all Subs at 1500W *with Cabin Gain* for his Truck without regard to impedance and all in exactly the same net sealed enclosure space. No HP or LP Filters - only Cabin Gain from 65-15Hz. The Morel Ultimo 12s were the obvious output winner but went well beyond xmax even though we were below RMS for 2 Subs in parallel and in smaller than recommended airspace. The C12XL were 2nd in output but got choked off in the Hi-Qtc enclosure and wrong impedance. The Revelator was over regular xmax but still below xmech and is only available in single 4 ohm VC so he would have to repower as the P One would only do 880W at 2 ohms. The Dayton 12HO is the only one that's Triple 12s versus the rest in Dual 12s so that would be below the 1 ohm target as well. 

Original Hi-Res sceenshot attached.


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

What about the Helix Q12W?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

619Tundra said:


> What about the Helix Q12W?


Same issues at Scans/C12XLs, Dual 2 ohm VCs mean I need big 2 ohm or 0.5 ohm power to get comparable results.

Also very deep subs that almost touch the bottom of the box.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Repeat after me.. modeling doesn't take sound quality into account. I've used all of those subs multiple times. Could have just asked me which ones to use lol. The gb12, c12xl/ravens are going to be exactly what he's looking for. The 32w probably modeled the best, but surprisingly do not sound that great.


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> Repeat after me.. modeling doesn't take sound quality into account. I've used all of those subs multiple times. Could have just asked me which ones to use lol. The gb12, c12xl/ravens are going to be exactly what he's looking for. The 32w probably modeled the best, but surprisingly do not sound that great.


Isn't the GB12 your favorite sub?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> Repeat after me.. modeling doesn't take sound quality into account. I've used all of those subs multiple times. Could have just asked me which ones to use lol. The gb12, c12xl/ravens are going to be exactly what he's looking for. The 32w probably modeled the best, but surprisingly do not sound that great.





RickWilson said:


> With available air, modeling, *installer experience feedback* and lastly, dollar for dollar investment I'd be making, I'm heading towards a pair of GB12D4s running off my P One @ 1500W with ~3.0 CF. They will be upfired.


This is 100% you lol and probably 90% of the reason I went to the GB. I know you know what I am after. 

The other 10% was not wanting a new sub amp/saving space for AB amps.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

619Tundra said:


> Isn't the GB12 your favorite sub?


Conventional subs, one of then. Overall top 5


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

I heard they're not designed to use in downfiring position.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

619Tundra said:


> I heard they're not designed to use in downfiring position.


Not sure why this would matter that much but mine will end up upfire regardless.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RickWilson said:


> Not sure why this would matter that much but mine will end up upfire regardless.


It doesn't. Ignore.


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## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

So is true?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So I've been bouncing off a few walls since I have decided to hang tight where I am career wise and vehicle wise for at least the next 12-18 months which in turn sent me into another planning phase of upgrading my sub stage (as you have previously read) and going to do an amplifier and processing upgrade as well.

*New Sub Stage*

Helix P One (Existing) - 1500W x 1 ohm
Audiofrog GB12D4 x 2
MTI Stage 4 Box (w/ 2" seat lift and integrated amp rack) - should net between 2.9 and 3.0 CF (Like a 0.75 qtc IFIRC)

Front of it should end up something like this - crude mock up I sent over for an etching idea.









This should be a very nice upgrade from my 12TW3s.

*New Amps + DSP*

First and foremost, I am not unhappy with my V8. This upgrade is very much into diminishing returns territory but I'm doing it because I enjoy trialing new equipment and I see these purchases staying with me for a long while and into other vehicles.

Current:
Helix V8 mk2

New:
Helix DSP Ultra
Helix C Four x 2

I battled with a ton of different amp configurations, a few phone calls with Nick and multiple layouts but ultimately I started this venture wanting C Fours and that's what Nick (and a few others) recommended.

Amp Rack Layout:

So I spent wayyyy too much time on this but I think it should save me a ton of headaches because I should be able to build this entire rack outside of the truck. I was crazy for thinking I could fit my P One on the rack as well because once you see the amount of wiring, I could barely make this configuration work.

What's unique and new to me is I am going to try and integrate some cooling into an open face style case. Nick warned me the C Fours can get warm under loud listening levels so he pointed toward AC Infinity. I have integrated a couple of rack fan systems (single unit height, 1.75" deep) (not sure to do exhaust or intake) above each C4 to move air across the entire face of amp. I plan on keeping them on the lowest settings as I probably won't need a ton of cooling, just peace of mind. They run off 12VDC as well.

Link to fan system:








CLOUDPLATE T1-N, Quiet Rack Cooling Fan System 1U, Intake


Your source to create smart growing systems with components including advance grow tents, inline fans, clip-on fans, LED grow lights, and UIS™ controllers.




acinfinity.com





*Wiring diagram: *
This is to scale.









Full Size Image (click):








As you can see, plenty of room 😅. But this allows me to use a relay as my remote on trigger for my DSP (then DSP remote out to 3 amps) and fans, and may add a couple LED strips. First time using a relay but after reading and watching, it seems to be the right tool to use for this.

Lastly, this is with a beauty panel cover that should stay proud of the amps by about 1/4 to 1/2" to allow the air from the fans to pass both above and sides of the amps. I am hoping to get Nick to laser cut the top, though it should be pretty easy with a router.









Full size image (click):








I really really like how this layout end ups. Clean access to fuses and controls for the amps. Left side input is power, high level inputs, USB and Optical. Bottom is output to P One and subs. Bottom right is output to speakers. I plan to make XT60 connectors for everything that I can so that install is smooth.

Lastly, a quick mock up of what it should look like in the back of my truck:









Timeline:
Subs and New MTI box ~2 months
New Amps and DSP ~2-3 months (depends on a couple things but Nick is taking care of me).

Open to any feedback on wiring or layout!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RickWilson said:


> I battled with a ton of different amp configurations, a few phone calls with Nick and multiple layouts but ultimately I started this venture wanting C Fours and that's what Nick (and a few others) recommended.


Are we counting texts and emails too? lol


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Oh, you can also get temperature sensors for the AC Infinity fans if you want to get fancy.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> Are we counting texts and emails too? lol


lol there’s a word limit on here



SkizeR said:


> Oh, you can also get temperature sensors for the AC Infinity fans if you want to get fancy.


That kit does have a probe included I think. 

Mostly trying to decide whether I should buy an intake or exhaust set up. There is probably going to be 2” above the case before the seat foam comes into play. The heat should dissipate to the outer edges of the seat if I use in exhaust, and I’d be pulling air from the 3-4” gap at the bottom of the seat. The case will be open on the bottom.

Intake feels likeI would short cycling hot air from the top area behind the seat but this would be push set up where I would call the first a pull set up. I’ve always built push favored computers to maintain positive pressure as much as possible.

Only pics I have of the seat backs as whole.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

damn i love it. squeeze all that goodness in such a small area. i'm also thinking of redoing my amp rack, not the components so much. i'm not completely happy with my turn out. i like your level of preplanning and it gives me ideas.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Air in. Dont worry about exhaust.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

slowride said:


> damn i love it. squeeze all that goodness in such a small area. i'm also thinking of redoing my amp rack, not the components so much. i'm not completely happy with my turn out. i like your level of preplanning and it gives me ideas.


I’m just hoping it saves me a lot of templating and trial and error. I’ll be installing seat lift in a couple weeks which will let be build an actual mock up. But drawing in CAD saved me a lot of headache on my last rack cause I was conservative to set clearances. On this new rack, I should have another 4” of width if I need it, which gives me a lot more freedom with cable management inside the case. But I’m trying to plan for worst case scenario (and minimal seat foam cutting).


SkizeR said:


> Air in. Dont worry about exhaust.


done and done.

and your laser does up to 48” width? Can’t remember.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

RickWilson said:


> I’m just hoping it saves me a lot of templating and trial and error. I’ll be installing seat lift in a couple weeks which will let be build an actual mock up. But drawing in CAD saved me a lot of headache on my last rack cause I was conservative to set clearances. On this new rack, I should have another 4” of width if I need it, which gives me a lot more freedom with cable management inside the case. But I’m trying to plan for worst case scenario (and minimal seat foam cutting).
> 
> 
> done and done.
> ...


36 inch wide, 24 tall


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## M_Mark28 (Mar 11, 2021)

Nice upgrade man, love how detail oriented your build is


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Quick Update - 

Pair of Audiofrog GB12D4 ordered
MTI Stage 2 Box (~3.0 CF net) ordered
Seat lift hopefully goes in next weekend so I can layout and get my amps moved to the back wall before the subs show up.
New 0 awg wiring for added sub stage load when I move the amps
Lastly going to reconfigure my front stage one more time (yeah I know I just had pillars made, and if anyone wants to purchase them, let me know. I'll sell them a fair price as they have a small nick in the vinyl on the passenger pillar)
Nick is gonna fab some new dash pods to house the MM3 mid firing into the windshield as I get the best performance and staging from the driver in that position. 
They do well in the pillars now but I'm just too critical to not keep tinkering. 

I had bought some Valicar pods for the Piccolos way back when but never used them. I am going to try them out now to test getting my tweeters on axis for once and anticipate I will get a lot more top end from them. I don't get much more than 14.5-15K from them now. Once I find a happy location, I plan to take a stab at fabbing some pillars on my own this winter.
This orientation should allow each driver to succeed with minimal EQ as compared to previous installs. 
Targeting the MM3 to play 250-2500 and Piccolo 2500 up.
I know my right mid range will end up with some tougher reflections/cancellations above 1.8k, hence my crossover targets. 
The Piccolo shouldn't have any trouble playing down that low either.


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## jheat2500 (Mar 1, 2021)

Before you move your tweeters, have you tried placing the mic in front of them and taking near field measurements to see if it changes what you are seeing on a graph? It would rule out measurement mic calibration issues. Are you sure you can hear anything above 15k? I know we all have different hearing, but I personally can't really hear anything above roughly 14.5k...Just my .02 as the pods may be of zero benefit to you.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

jheat2500 said:


> Before you move your tweeters, have you tried placing the mic in front of them and taking near field measurements to see if it changes what you are seeing on a graph? It would rule out measurement mic calibration issues. Are you sure you can hear anything above 15k? I know we all have different hearing, but I personally can't really hear anything above roughly 14.5k...Just my .02 as the pods may be of zero benefit to you.


It's a fair point and I can take some measurements later this week but most of reason for change is mid-range driven more than tweeter. Tuning the mids in this position before and after summing them was a challenge. I'm too inexperienced to recognize if I am tuning reflections of the mids or not, I'm sure there is some more potential to squeeze from them that I am not seeing. I'm hoping to cross my mids as low as I can to help with cancellations in my mid bass from my center console. And for this issue, the dash locations for mids play dramatically lower without EQ, like down to 150 hz if I would let them where the pillars only really allow for 300+. Mostly attributing that to generous air space behind the driver in the dash vs the pillars.

Tweeters responded about the same, just a tiny bit less top end in the pillars. I'm trying the pods mostly from an experimental and staging perspective, I can hear up to about 17k myself and I am wondering if gaining that last 2-2.5k on top is going make a difference or not to me. If it doesn't and I find it makes no difference that way, Nick is making a mounting location in the dash pod for the Piccolo so I can go back to full stealth build if I want and delete the pod.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> Oh, you can also get temperature sensors for the AC Infinity fans if you want to get fancy.


Question about this cooling system. Says it's 12v but has 110-220ac power brick. How would this be wired into a vehicle? Cut brick off and wire directly to 12v distribution panel?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Question about this cooling system. Says it's 12v but has 110-220ac power brick. How would this be wired into a vehicle? Cut brick off and wire directly to 12v distribution panel?


yes


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Isn’t tinkering fun? I just wish it wasn’t so damned expensive. lol
Finals in 2 weeks just for the fun of it then start the winter refresh. I finished the fall refresh 2 weeks ago. lol


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> Quick Update -
> 
> Pair of Audiofrog GB12D4 ordered
> MTI Stage 2 Box (~3.0 CF net) ordered
> ...


Another not so small update - buying a pair of new Mosconi Pro 5/30s and Helix DSP Pro mk3. If this doesn't satisfy me, I need to quit this hobby. With that said, I am stoked to hear the changes with new subs and A/B amps with some power.

Hopefully should have this all in place for my meet up on Halloween.

I will have my Helix V8 mk2, P One and Stealthbox with the pair of 12TW3-D8s up for sale later in October if anyone is interested. If you buy the whole kit, I have the entire amp rack pre-assembled to fit in the pocket of the Stealthbox. The shipping of the Stealthbox is going to be around $300-450 and I will keep that in mind during pricing.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

Funny, my wife always says I'm never satisfied. Next time she says it, I'm going to have her read yours and Unbroken's build logs.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Funny, my wife always says I'm never satisfied. Next time she says it, I'm going to have her read yours and Unbroken's build logs.


I could probably quote myself 3 times in this very thread where I said I was "done" lol

Short of swapping full Brax amp/dsp and Accuton front stage, I'll be done in this truck. I want a better vehicle for SQ before investing in Brax/Accuton)

Only thing I may explore is alternate midbass (like 8WMs) but the 5/30s should breathe some more life into my BLAMs.


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> Another not so small update - buying a pair of new Mosconi Pro 5/30s and Helix DSP Pro mk3. If this doesn't satisfy me, I need to quit this hobby. With that said, I am stoked to hear the changes with new subs and A/B amps with some power.
> 
> Hopefully should have this all in place for my meet up on Halloween.
> 
> I will have my Helix V8 mk2, P One and Stealthbox with the pair of 12TW3-D8s up for sale later in October if anyone is interested. If you buy the whole kit, I have the entire amp rack pre-assembled to fit in the pocket of the Stealthbox. The shipping of the Stealthbox is going to be around $300-450 and I will keep that in mind during pricing.


I think you will be happy with the 5/30, I enjoy mines!


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

And they are gorgeous amps to look at! 😂


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

To save some searching for folks later:

New build list:

Front Stage
Morel Supremo Piccolo v2, Morel MM3, BLAM WS8.100

Rears
Audiofrog GS62 - Differential Rear Fill

Subs
2 x Audiofrog GB12D4
MTI Stage 2 Box (3.0 CF net)
2" LMI Seat Lift

DSP/Signal
Helix DSP Pro mk3 w/ Conductor
Topping D10S (Audioquest Pearl USB and Optical)
LLJ Customs Harness (High Level) for Phone Calls/Chimes/Navigation

Amplification
Mosconi Pro 5/30 #1
Ch 1/2 - Tweeters
Ch 3/4 - Midrange
Ch 5 - Left Sub

Mosconi Pro 5/30 #2
Ch 1/2 - Rear Fill
Ch 3/4 - Midbass
Ch 5 - Right Sub


Power
0 AWG OFC
Stinger Distro Blocks
Planet Waves RCA Interconnects

Sound Treatment
Resonix CLD/CCF + Soundskins Pro


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## SeaBeef (6 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> To save some searching for folks later:
> 
> New build list:
> 
> ...


“LLJ Customs Harness (High Level) for Phone Calls/Chimes/Navigation”

Can you elaborate more on this please? I assume you’re using a phone or tablet into the D10S then optical or coax into the Helix?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SeaBeef said:


> “LLJ Customs Harness (High Level) for Phone Calls/Chimes/Navigation”
> 
> Can you elaborate more on this please? I assume you’re using a phone or tablet into the D10S then optical or coax into the Helix?


There is some further detail on this in page 2 or 3 I believe of the build log but in short - the LLJ harness is purely a high level speaker harness made with OEM connectors that allow plug and play connection to the small amp/audio interface from the OEM HU out to my DSP. 

I do use optical from my Topping for all music (less radio) from my iPhone. 

The LLJ harness really only gets used for Bluetooth calls that come through the headunit then my Helix auto swaps back to my digital input immediately after a call ends.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

....and so it begins...again....

So started on amp rack mock ups in anticipation of getting my new 5/30s and DSP Pro mk3 some time next week and ideally building out my amp rack next weekend. I started using the Sounds Good Stereo amp board I bought months ago when I was planning just upgrading my subs and moving V8/P One to the back wall, it's an expensive template but saves me from removing my back seat and trying to measure.

The board is well made but assumes you have a Bose amp and a rear window motor and my truck (luckily) does not, plus I need the extra width on the passenger side to squeeze both amps and DSP. Lastly I will need to find a home for the inverter on the back wall but confident I make a small shelf below the amp rack to land this.
















I'm feeling confident about this not having a ton of fitment issues as my amp board is mocked up to be 7 inches less than max width I believe I could have fit when I was designing for the C4s. I also love the Pro amps for having a single side for cable and wire terminations, far simpler for cable management.









It's the first iteration for now, I may try putting the 5/30s next to each other (cause I could press them tight together) and DSP to one side. I am going to tackle my seat lift early next week which allows my seats to then fold down without unbolting them so I can go mock up in the truck before I actually cut up some PVC and start mounting pieces. I love this phase as much as any part of the build process.









Edit: this other layout might the easiest to implement wiring wise but I’m a sucker for symmetry


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> ....and so it begins...again....
> 
> So started on amp rack mock ups in anticipation of getting my new 5/30s and DSP Pro mk3 some time next week and ideally building out my amp rack next weekend. I started using the Sounds Good Stereo amp board I bought months ago when I was planning just upgrading my subs and moving V8/P One to the back wall, it's an expensive template but saves me from removing my back seat and trying to measure.
> 
> ...


I vote for the helix in the middle but i also understand how wiring plays a factor.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

I agree with clange2485, DSP between the 2 amps looks pretty good and symmetrical.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

who cares what it looks like. Its behind a seat. Make it easy to install and most importantly easy to service.


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> who cares what it looks like. Its behind a seat. Make it easy to install and most importantly easy to service.


Is that what you tell your clients? 😆

Not saying i don’t agree with you but It’s certainly worth a little time & effort.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SkizeR said:


> who cares what it looks like. Its behind a seat. Make it easy to install and most importantly easy to service.


i know once I get to actually mocking up in the truck, space is gonna get tighter but serviceability much more of a consideration this time. Graduating to finally using some xt60 connectors, easy to access ground and power connections, thread inserts, etc. my objective with this amp rack is to make it look tidy and super clean but also designed to be removed entirely in 10 minutes or less.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

clange2485 said:


> Is that what you tell your clients? 😆
> 
> Not saying i don’t agree with you but It’s certainly worth a little time & effort.


I don't tell them anything unless they are a hobbyist of some sort. Most wouldn't even know the first thing about this. But I can _promise _you, that serviceability trumps all. That should be priority number one, always. Aesthetics should be last on the list for how an amp rack is laid out unless the customer is paying for it to look a certain way.


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## SeaBeef (6 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> There is some further detail on this in page 2 or 3 I believe of the build log but in short - the LLJ harness is purely a high level speaker harness made with OEM connectors that allow plug and play connection to the small amp/audio interface from the OEM HU out to my DSP.
> 
> I do use optical from my Topping for all music (less radio) from my iPhone.
> 
> The LLJ harness really only gets used for Bluetooth calls that come through the headunit then my Helix auto swaps back to my digital input immediately after a call ends.


Is the auto switching to Bluetooth then back to digital standard and set in the software or due to the harness? I’d like my Pro Mk2 to work that way


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SeaBeef said:


> Is the auto switching to Bluetooth then back to digital standard and set in the software or due to the harness? I’d like my Pro Mk2 to work that way


Software. I’ll send you my configuration at some point this weekend. It’s very simple to set up. And to be clear it’s swapping technically between high level input (oem BT) and digital. I do believe you can still configure a priority system between digital the Helix BT Card.


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## websitevelocity (Aug 23, 2019)

Wow what a ride man. Both the vehicle and the build journey. Looking forward to the next iteration!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

websitevelocity said:


> Wow what a ride man. Both the vehicle and the build journey. Looking forward to the next iteration!


Much appreciated - it's been both equally challenging, frustrating and rewarding. I re-read my entire build log this past weekend and wish I could have stopped or slapped myself a couple of times. While it seems foolish to have revised the build now, 7 times in a year?, each iteration has taught me something new.

I am very excited about this next iteration as I think it's going to tap a majority of the potential that this platform can offer. 

Always chasing the final % of potential has what has led to most these new upgrades but I finally feel I have tools and methods ready to get as much from 20-20kHz as I can, short of major body modification (IB blowthrough subs, custom kick panels, etc). If this wasn't a company vehicle, you are damn sure I'd be down those roads already.


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## websitevelocity (Aug 23, 2019)

I can't let myself (or should say my finances won't let me) try multiple iterations of this so it's awesome to see others try new things and experiment. That's one reason I love the forums... to see all these pics/discussions (good and bad.) Do you have a timeframe on when you'll be finishing up the rack and installing?



RickWilson said:


> ... short of major body modification (IB blowthrough subs, custom kick panels, etc).


If mine didn't carry construction workers around half the time, I guarantee you my widwoofers wouldn't be going in the doors. lol


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

websitevelocity said:


> I can't let myself (or should say my finances won't let me) try multiple iterations of this so it's awesome to see others try new things and experiment. That's one reason I love the forums... to see all these pics/discussions (good and bad.) Do you have a timeframe on when you'll be finishing up the rack and installing?
> 
> If mine didn't carry construction workers around half the time, I guarantee you my widwoofers wouldn't be going in the doors. lol


Yeah my midbass location is the last frontier of major improvements after this point. Not sure how far I’m willing to go modifying this truck. I’d be better off finding a better vehicle with stock locations.

with that said, I’ll be pushing in small sprints over the next 3 weeks. Nick said my dsp and amps shipped today and new dash pods in a couple of weeks.

so hopefully should have amp rack all done and in by end of next weekend. Certainly will have the board done and pre wired at a minimum.

Subs arrive next week. Box will be here just a couple days before my meet up but that should be a very quick swap over at that point.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Kind of introspective, bittersweet post.

In preparation for what I am considering to be my last major iteration in the build for this truck, I’ve been spending a lot of time in my head being critical of my system. Meaning I’ve spent the last month focused on what my system can’t do vs. what it can do. It’s made me more confident in that I have some solid tools coming to address the shortcomings of my system and I’m set up for as much success as possible given the limitations of my vehicle. The inverse of this thought has made me endlessly nitpick isolated issues and over focus on them and stop enjoying the system as a whole. Critical listening is both a blessing and a curse.

Last night though, Nick and I were bouncing some texts about midbass and playing with some various measurements to narrow some root causes of my mid bass nulls. They were fairly obvious and unavoidable without speaker relocation but it drove me to slide back into my tune as a whole after we ended our conversation.

I ended up finding a couple 3-4 db peaks (at 350 and 750) on my mids as well as well my mids running about a db or 2 low relative my tweets. It was actually very surprising that correcting some fairly minor issues made a large impression on me. Not sure whether it’s becoming a better listener or just a placebo effect but for the first time in a few months, I just sat and enjoyed my current build. While it doesnt have much to offer from 20-30hz or above 15k, it feels extremely cohesive at this point and well rounded.

Do I think spending $X,XXX on my next set of equipment is going to provide some night and day impact to my system? Certainly not. But the upgrades are targeted at very specific problems instead of things like “system isn’t clear and loud enough” or “needs more midbass”. It’s things like moving my mids back to my dash because my midbass can barely reach 200hz, and getting a sub stage that fills the 20-30hz range with extension and authority, tweeters installed wider and on axis for a better default stage and top end, AB power and more headroom for better dynamics in my front stage, etc.

I think the long and short of this post is that, I’m excited that I’ve begun to notice small changes can have big impact. It’s made better at problem solving and assessing potential solutions. Tuning and measuring continues to be a stronger tool than I think 90% of this community realizes. And lastly, enjoy what you have sometimes, it’s not always about chasing perfection. Your system is likely more capable than you think. 

Now to tear apart most of my build in the next two weeks . Lots of goodies landing in the next day or so.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Good write up Rick. I think a certain group will never ever be 100% happy w there setup and always chasing that extra 5%. 
My issue is knowing there’s room for improvement, and not leaving well enough alone. 
Reading through your build has been an incredible journey for you. At this point, you have experienced some really cool stuff and learned a lot about tuning I’m sure. 
In my opinion, the journey is as much fun as the end result. Keep up the chase!!!


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## SeaBeef (6 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> Started today by getting all the speakers installed. Started with my GB60s. Used the harnesses I got from Crutchfield from an earlier install. Let’s me plug them in and out.
> View attachment 323512
> View attachment 323513
> 
> ...


Going through your build. Do those soundskins sheets just stick over the service holes on the inner skin? No sheet metal or lead covering the holes?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SeaBeef said:


> Going through your build. Do those soundskins sheets just stick over the service holes on the inner skin? No sheet metal or lead covering the holes?


You are correct - the SoundSkin Prop stuff has fair amount of mass and not a ton of movement from what I tested. With that said, the next time I take my door panels off, I have a set of block off plates that I will install and sound treat. Just currently focused on new amps, re-config of front stage and new subs for now.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Sam b said:


> Good write up Rick. I think a certain group will never ever be 100% happy w there setup and always chasing that extra 5%.
> My issue is knowing there’s room for improvement, and not leaving well enough alone.
> Reading through your build has been an incredible journey for you. At this point, you have experienced some really cool stuff and learned a lot about tuning I’m sure.
> In my opinion, the journey is as much fun as the end result. Keep up the chase!!!


Appreciate it and I am certainly always going to be chasing that improvement but hopefully going about it in a much more methodical fashion so I don't drive myself too crazy. I'm addicted to learning about the theory and honing my fab skills so I agree, the journey is nearly everything.

Even though nearly all of my DIY experience is in this truck, I still feel I've encountered quite a few common situations that plague the car audio world. 

With that said, I would highly recommend people avoid trucks if your objective is SQ. Speaker locations and cab design alone, in most trucks, is a severe uphill battle.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

The main course has arrived and boy am I excited. Thank you again to @SkizeR for getting me these in lighting time. New Mosconi 5/30 x 2 and Helix DSP Pro mk3.

Also snagged myself a Zapco Z-PSP100A AC/DC Power Supply (thanks! @Huckleberry Sound) for test benching and battery charging for meet ups/comps. Going to make a similar set up to @UNBROKEN , thank you for the inspo.









A few glamour shots before everything gets taped up for fitment testing and amp rack building.

















Zapco Power Supply

















Off to get my seat lift installed and hopefully amp rack cut to size and test fit.


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

Sweet!! Nice setup!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So got started on the LMI seat lift today. For reference this is the 1920CB kit. Meant for 2019 - 2023 Crew cab Sierra / Silverado 1500s with cubbies in the rear seats.

Trying to help search results here as I researched a lot and found nothing for installation instructions on this current generation for this kit. So I’m taking my best shot here at a set on install instructions but I sadly only have limited photos.










This is the kit of parts. This actually made it pretty straight forward once I matched hardware counts with each bracket.

From left to right.
*Flanged plate with two slotted holes -* the is the lower attachment point for the upper cushion.
*Headrest brackets -* two for outer headrests, one for the center - very straightforward.
*Locking pin bracket - *these lock the upper part of the upper cushion. They are fabbed so they can only fit in one position: left, center or right.
*C shaped Spacer Bracket - *these raise the six anchor points for the bottom cushion.

I started with removing the upper cushion. I suggest following this youtube video:






Then I unbolted the bottom bolts (6) of the bottom cushion, these require an impact wrench or some heavy leverage on a socket, they are firmly seated from the factory. The bottom cushion will need to be vertical after it unbolted to balance in place.
I install the C channels driver, passenger then center. It's a bit awkward to do alone but manageable, *the slotted side of the* *C must be pointed down*, it's the only way to fit the OEM bolt (18mm) in the hole.
I only hand tightened and a few wrench twists until I got all 6 locations in (a ratcheting wrench is almost required for this part because of the tight clearances). Then tightened all 6 down as tightly as I could with the wrench.
This is the longest part of the install.









Should look like this when finished


Then I installed the locking pin brackets. I first test the LMI brackets to match each location with each unique bracket - you will see there is only one orientation that allows the OEM bolt (18mm again) to be reinstalled. I then attached the OEM locking pin the LMI bracket outside the truck and then installed the assembly in the truck. I also added a small zip tie to allow rear seat removable without needing any tools. (serviceability is the name of the game for this version of the build).




















Then I installed the headrest brackets.
Then lastly I installed the flange plates to the bottom of the upper cushion. First the LMI brackets to the seat cushion (while outside the truck). Flange is facing towards the front of the truck, LMI bracket on the rear side the OEM bracket. Bolt and washer on the OEM bracket side.
May take you a couple tries to find the right position for these plates, but I'd place the brackets all the down and center of the OEM hole to start, then adjust left and right as needed.

Then refer to the video above and follow in reverse to re assemble the upper cushion and headrests.










Mine installed, leaving headrests out for now because I will probably take the seat back out in a few days for amp fitment and trimming a bit of the back cushion (though it really wasn't required but I need to for the amps anyways).









Certainly makes a big difference and is very, very sturdy.

Hope this helps someone in the future.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Man having a power supply is a great addition. You’ll gonna enjoy that.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

RickWilson said:


> The main course has arrived and boy am I excited. Thank you again to @SkizeR for getting me these in lighting time. New Mosconi 5/30 x 2 and Helix DSP Pro mk3.
> 
> Also snagged myself a Zapco Z-PSP100A AC/DC Power Supply (thanks! @Huckleberry Sound) for test benching and battery charging for meet ups/comps. Going to make a similar set up to @UNBROKEN , thank you for the inspo.
> View attachment 349533
> ...


The pics of the audio equipment is cool and all, but Wow! I’m digging that Lunch Upon A Skyscraper sculpture - that is really freakin cool! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

bertholomey said:


> The pics of the audio equipment is cool and all, but Wow! I’m digging that Lunch Upon A Skyscraper sculpture - that is really freakin cool!


Thanks! My dad bought it about 20 years ago on the streets of NYC. Some artist had made a full scale replica on a flatbed as well as a handful of 1/16 and 1/8 scale versions. This is one of the 1/16 versions. Always been a great conversation starter.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

RickWilson said:


> Thanks! My dad bought it about 20 years ago on the streets of NYC. Some artist had made a full scale replica on a flatbed as well as a handful of 1/16 and 1/8 scale versions. This is one of the 1/16 versions. Always been a great conversation starter.
> 
> View attachment 349601


I love it! Thank you for the back story!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Spent a couple hours today relocation my ac/dc inverter off the back wall, trimming my rear seat cushion and taking some final dimensions for amp rack planning and clearances.

Starting with the inverter. Tried several different locations but settled on center of the small “shelf” behind rear seat.

Traced out carpet to be trimmed.









Then fabbed from 1/2" hpde and test fit into place. Utilizes a factory 6mm stud for mounting.
















Nice and tidy, better aesthetics and protection.

Then got the unit trimmed down and bolted.









Inverter mounted and wires rerouted
















CCF added for decoupling









Nice and tidy, complete









Going to be quiet for a few days until I can get the amp rack fabbed and wired but should get into that early next week. 

Cheers all.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So finally getting some heavier progress done today. Finally have pretty much all the parts and pieces to finish the amp rack. Nick is getting my Planet Waves RCAs at some point this week but those would be the last wires to be installed on the rack anyways.

I started to today with a ton final fitment tests and pulling dimensions before I would then cut up my amp ramp.

I ended up calling Sounds Good Stereo out of Nashville as I follow their youtube closely and they have a ton of experience with truck builds and Mosconi Pros. I called and Sage answered the phone and was super helpful and in 5 minutes he probably saved me hours of work. He gave some key info - that the padding (the one that seals seat to back wall of truck) was removable without cutting AND this would reveal you can remove the back panel of the cubbies in the rear seat. Seeing through the cubbies was the magic - both before and after I tested the amp rack with amps mounted to it. He mentioned they always remove the entire padding and sound treat the seat back and add CCF as needed. That will be my plan going forward.

Back of seat, padding removed and one cubby back panel removed.









Seat back reinstalled, cubbies open. At the tightest point, you only have about 2 5/8" of depth using a 1/2" amp rack material.
















Lastly, I grinded off the two middle bracket to attach the rear seat. Makes seat removal and wire management much easier.









Amp rack coming up next. Gotta eat dinner first.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So then I worked on fabbing the amp rack itself and then layout, mock up and test fitment in the truck. Then finally added speaker terminal locations, distro blocks and mapped out some wire management (that should get mostly completed tomorrow)

Amp rack - again, I had the Sounds Good Stereo amp board but needed it to longer. So I picked up a sheet of blown PVC up the street and ripped it to the match width (14.5") and my desired length (51") then I took a router and traced out the SGS board and holes for the studs in my truck.








and voila, new amp rack!









Then set off on taping both amps and dsp and getting them laid out and mounted for a mock up. 








All amps and the dsp, distro blocks, etc will all be using M5 threaded inserts for serviceability.









Test fit in the truck w/o seat back. I do intended to fully cover my back wall in CCF for decoupling and mostly aesthetics.

This is about as much foot print as you can take behind these seats in any direction. 










The next set of photos will show you why. I'll have a little trimming to do.









Though there are some tight clearances at points, there is a significant amount of volume above and below the amps, so I don't have any cooling concerns atm. But still, it's tight. I am just happy it fit the first time.
















Lastly, I played around with a few wiring layout and ultimately will end up close to this. Though I think I may try one more configuration in the morning before doing final mounting.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Then lastly got a very happy surprise. MTI knocked out my box like 2 weeks ahead of schedule. Jim sent me these pics this afternoon. 

Stage 2, upfire. Again. for a pair of GB12D4's









I had asked them to order the black Carbon Pro emblem to tie in with the exterior emblems I swapped out.








They also provides a pair of ring terminals at the last second when I swapped to the 5/30s.


















Miigghhhhtttt be able to have this all running by end of weekend. If not, first thing next week, I will get everything besides the new install locations for mids/tweets done. In the mode now where I stop paying attention to time and just enjoy the hobby.

Tomorrow I will be sporadically wiring throughout the day. Going to focus on really getting consistent with looming, labeling and clean wire runs. Function above all but I still want it to look pretty.


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## teh_squirrel (Jan 16, 2020)

The box sure is pretty  Is the pvc pretty sturdy? 1/2"?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

teh_squirrel said:


> The box sure is pretty  Is the pvc pretty sturdy? 1/2"?


I'm excited to see it on Thursday.

The PVC actually had me concerned in the full sheet size but once ripped to size holds it shape much better and is super light. Mounting this vertically negates stability issues but I wouldn't use 1/2" in this type of span horizontally without intermediate support or a spine of sorts to help. But in this application, it works super well, cuts like butter on a saw or router and inserting things like threaded inserts are super predictable and friendly.

Also - they were out of 3/4" which is what I wanted originally.


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## abbispa (Feb 24, 2015)

What a great build, it's all first class.


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## Willbo (Mar 23, 2014)

RickWilson said:


> So then I worked on fabbing the amp rack itself and then layout, mock up and test fitment in the truck. Then finally added speaker terminal locations, distro blocks and mapped out some wire management (that should get mostly completed tomorrow)
> 
> Amp rack - again, I had the Sounds Good Stereo amp board but needed it to longer. So I picked up a sheet of blown PVC up the street and ripped it to the match width (14.5") and my desired length (51") then I took a router and traced out the SGS board and holes for the studs in my truck.
> View attachment 349931
> ...


Looks great! Any concerns with the seat back rubbing against the amps when someone sits back there?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So I was able to tackle power and remote wiring sporadically throughout the day today. Patience was tested but so far very excited for how it is turning out. Trying to play off the Mosconi color scheme.

Have some ideas to make the speaker and RCA wiring stand out as well but will tackle that later this week.

Stripped off the amps to make a small 1/4" rip along the top edge and then installed threaded inserts.









Wiring - Started off by mounting the distro blocks to their final location and routing wires. Drilled holes for zip tie anchoring so I could get accurate lengths.









Then loomed/labeled up the power/ground and remote wires (not shown). 4 gauge for amps, 16 gauge for DSP/Remote.
















Then got everything installed and secured.
























10 gallons of junk in a 5 gallon bucket but it's trending in the right direction.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I love it! Very clean and symmetrical!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## M_Mark28 (Mar 11, 2021)

Very nice


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

I wish I had your patience. Great work.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Curveball…is there enough room behind the mounting board to pull the zip ties from the back side to hide the head?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

UNBROKEN said:


> Curveball…is there enough room behind the mounting board to pull the zip ties from the back side to hide the head?


Actually yes. Great idea. I’ll swap those out when I get the rest of the wiring done. Appreciate the suggestion .


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

Your thread helped me - I never knew that amplifier looking thing on the back wall was an inverter. Always assumed it was the stock Bosche amplifier. Thought about moving it but was able to fit all my amps around it but I like your solution.


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## NL5 (4 mo ago)

Rick -

Are you adding a seat lift? If not, how were you able to get an enclosure from Mti that fit the frogs?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

preston said:


> Your thread helped me - I never knew that amplifier looking thing on the back wall was an inverter. Always assumed it was the stock Bosche amplifier. Thought about moving it but was able to fit all my amps around it but I like your solution.


yeah having the non-Bose has been a blessing (maybe not, cause not having Bose in this truck is what sent me down the car audio rabbit hole in the first place lol) because of the lack of back of seat equipment. I don’t have either the Bose amp or windshield motor which would have this configuration (plus for the inverter) nearly impossible to fit and be able to service



NL5 said:


> Rick -
> 
> Are you adding a seat lift? If not, how were you able to get an enclosure from Mti that fit the frogs?


Check out previous page. Post #337. Yes, I have the 1920CB 2” LMI seat lift. Works well


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Enclosure just arrived. Subs today or tomorrow. Came out really clean and stealth. Only unexpected part is having two isolated chambers for each sub. Should net 1.25 cf (34.4L) on driver's side and about 1.20 cf (32.7L) on passenger chamber. It's a bit less volume than I was expecting but I net about a 1.1 cf gain overall from my Stealthbox (and the obvious depth advantage).
























I will hopefully get this sound treated tonight and then big day tomorrow getting everything else installed and wired up.

Still crossing my fingers I see my RCAs today or amp rack will be a no go.

(Edit: it's like Nick was listening - UPS just delivered my RCAs)


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

It's beautiful...!


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

RickWilson said:


> So then I worked on fabbing the amp rack itself and then layout, mock up and test fitment in the truck. Then finally added speaker terminal locations, distro blocks and mapped out some wire management (that should get mostly completed tomorrow)
> 
> Amp rack - again, I had the Sounds Good Stereo amp board but needed it to longer. So I picked up a sheet of blown PVC up the street and ripped it to the match width (14.5") and my desired length (51") then I took a router and traced out the SGS board and holes for the studs in my truck.
> 
> ...


regarding the mounting of the amp rack, is the seat belt running behind your rack or over the amp. i get that the front portion of the seat belt runs in front of the seat, my question is the rear portion of it before it passes through the top loop


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

slowride said:


> regarding the mounting of the amp rack, is the seat belt running behind your rack or over the amp. i get that the front portion of the seat belt runs in front of the seat, my question is the rear portion of it before it passes through the top loop


It will end up in front of the amps after it is mounted - I am going to create a small U shaped saddle out of PVC to offset the strap about an 1/8 - 3/16" proud of amp to prevent any rubbing.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

That thing looks like art


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Is it just one solid center divider? If so I’d be in there with a hole saw turning it into a common chamber. lol


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

UNBROKEN said:


> Is it just one solid center divider? If so I’d be in there with a hole saw turning it into a common chamber. lol


I legit texted Nick the moment I unboxed and saw that and asked the same question. He said to not worry about it. The net difference is like .04 CF when I went to measure a bit closer - not worth cutting things up or EQ'ing separate.

I can't tell if it's a double layer brace or not.

I don't understand the mechanics of subs enough to know if it would make any difference of one chamber vs two separate.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

RickWilson said:


> I legit texted Nick the moment I unboxed and saw that and asked the same question. He said to not worry about it. The net difference is like .04 CF when I went to measure a bit closer - not worth cutting things up or EQ'ing separate.
> 
> I can't tell if it's a double layer brace or not.
> 
> I don't understand the mechanics of subs enough to know if it would make any difference of one chamber vs two separate.


did they think that you were running a 5/30 per sub? maybe one chamber with two independent gain/level controls may have influenced this decision


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

slowride said:


> did they think that you were running a 5/30 per sub? maybe one chamber with two independent gain/level controls may have influenced this decision


That was exactly their logic when I texted Jim Skaggs about it. But I plan to voltage match the gains and TA/EQ them the same. So probably doesn’t make any difference whether I drill out the brace or not.


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## abbispa (Feb 24, 2015)

Nice looking box, i especially like how they matched the stitching. Great stuff overall.


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## SNCTMPL (Nov 23, 2014)

Box turned out great. I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on the new subs.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

abbispa said:


> Nice looking box, i especially like how they matched the stitching. Great stuff overall.


I appreciate it. I actually opted for a low contrast stitching instead of matching the oem orange stiching. I wanted something subtle. 


SNCTMPL said:


> Box turned out great. I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on the new subs.


It will certainly be the biggest change from this round of new equipment. I’m very excited. Very fortunate that I’m good friends with the postmaster in town who is monitoring when my subs come in tomorrow.

out of curiosity - are subs in separate chambers in your box?


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

SNCTMPL said:


> Box turned out great. I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on the new subs.


Me to.


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## SNCTMPL (Nov 23, 2014)

RickWilson said:


> I appreciate it. I actually opted for a low contrast stitching instead of matching the oem orange stiching. I wanted something subtle.
> 
> It will certainly be the biggest change from this round of new equipment. I’m very excited. Very fortunate that I’m good friends with the postmaster in town who is monitoring when my subs come in tomorrow.
> 
> out of curiosity - are subs in separate chambers in your box?


Yes, they both measured in right at 1.25’.
Crude but got me in the ballpark.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

SNCTMPL said:


> Yes, they both measured in right at 1.25’.
> Crude but got me in the ballpark.
> 
> View attachment 350429


Yup that’s same here. Within .02 cf or so side to side.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Today’s objective. Going to be a long day but should be possible. I’ll hopefully be able to post as the day goes along.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Hit a couple of snags today that sucked up a ton of time but here’s a couple teaser pics from today. I’ll get some more in-depth posts up once I wrap up tomorrow. As for tonight, music is playing - just haven’t gotten the subs dropped in.








Dropped in.








Extremely happy with how the amp rack turned out.


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

Very clean set up and nice equipment!! Where did you get those speaker connectors?


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## Mike_Saw_75 (8 mo ago)

Amazing work!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Alright - so after about 22 hours of time into my truck this weekend, finally getting a few minutes to bring in some more detail about the upgrades. You've already seen the best part but I'll do my best to explain how we got there.

I started Saturday morning around 10 am and focused on wrapping up my rear seat - trimming, sound treatment, service access and one last test fitment.

So per my conversation with Sage at Sounds Good, he stated they usually remove the entirety of the OEM closed cell foam on the seat back. I had been driving around without that foam installed for a couple of days was astonished by how much road noise (and pressure flap noise) came into the cabin. So I ended up testing a couple things - I stuffed towels on both the two outer edges and top of the seat between the seat and the back wall. Pretty much solved the problem - still some road noise but really calmed things down. Laslty, I did one trip without the top of the back seat sealed and it barely made a difference, so I focused on sealing up the sides. I ended up trimming the OEM cushion as shown below and have great results.
















Trimmed it to clear my amp rack - my rack is 51" wide and outer edge from amp to amp is 49". Also used some heavy duty Velcro to secure the OEM carpet backed cushion in a couple locations.
















Then I moved on to trimming a couple area I knew were extremely tight tolerance wise and may touch the amps. I then added some 1/8" CCF I had left over - just enough to protect things without affecting clearances and airflow.
















Then moved on to cutting a small access port for service. This is unfinished currently - just has some Tessa Tape until I can fab a nicer bolt on cover for it. This is within the cubby on the passenger side and allows me to swap/check fuses without needing to remove the rear seat.
















Then lastly moved on to full blown Resonix CLD and CCF treatment of the back seat. Happy to report no rattles.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Then moved on to a couple of more tedious items. Amp rack mounting, rest of back of wall sound treatment and running my 0 AWG wire out out back.

Started with getting my amp rack back in the truck with some small 1/8" plates I had bought from Grainger to secure the top left and right hand corners of the amp rack. I also use 2 factory stud locations (top middle and bottom middle) to secure the middle of the rack. It is extremely rigid and secure.

I pre-bent the plate with a vice and pliers to match the bevel of the metal I would be securing to - this helped push the amp rack firmly against the back wall. I then attached the bracket with threaded inserts on the board itself and laid out the location in the truck itself.
















Drilled out and secured the M5 riv nut in place on both sides. Man I wish I recognized the value of threaded inserts and riv nuts earlier in my builds. I think this entire version of the build has 4 wood screws used to secure the seat belt offset piece and that's it, everything else is threaded inserts.
















Then wrapped up final sound treatment of the back wall before the amp rack would go in for the final time.









Then lastly went to install the 0 awg. This was painful - mostly because I tried to use the existing grommet from 4 AWG that just wasn't big enough for the 0 AWG, I spent too much time trying to make that work. I then reset and decided to drill a proper hole and added a new bushing/grommet through the firewall. I then added split loom and secured the wire (not shown).









And then added the new 0 AWG lead from the battery to my existing fuse location under the hood.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Then at the end of the night - around 11 pm, after accidentally cutting my signal and speaker harness in the wrong spot and screaming at the top of my lungs in frustration, decided to swap to a more straight forward task of prepping my sub box.

Gotta say I love the single terminal and switch the GB subs use, makes wiring so damn simple.









So I ended up sound treating my box with some of the Resonix CLD I had and some egg crate foam on the bottom surface. Then added the wire leads for the subs. All 10 gauge.
















Sub #1 mounted and compared to my Stealthbox.
















All ready to go. Sorry about the fingerprints.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

And then the last part of the build - which I wrapped up the following morning - the amp rack.

Started with making a ton of small leads that go to a termination bar (serviceability above all for this rack) and labeled each termination bar.
















Then I added two brackets to offset the seat belt in front of the amps - more pics later of how it works.









Then added the Planet Waves RCAs - easily my favorite part of the wiring - they work so damn well. I used some 90 degree AudioQuest RCA splitters for my sub channels as the 5/30s don't have a toggle for mono input on the 5th channel (and I think it looks cool as hell).









And then treated the back of the rack with 1/8" CCF to decouple a bit.









And done!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

And then finally some beauty pics of the rack dropped into the truck. Very proud of this one.

































Some detail pics of the wiring, terminations and seat belt bracket







































And finally fully terminated and operational!









More updated to come when I get this tuned up. Still have my dash mounted from Nick coming and tweeter pods to install as well but that should be a quick evening to swap out.

Thanks for following along if you have made it this far!


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

great job! this is an awesome upgrade. can't wait ti hear your impressions on the subs.


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## M_Mark28 (Mar 11, 2021)

Nice work man, im sure that's going to sound amazing


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Looking great and keeping me motivated.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

That’s quite a wknds work


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

That is about as nice as they come. Looks great.


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## Flygts (Aug 17, 2021)

Looks great! Super clean!


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

I like the layout, that is a lot of gear in a tiny space. I'm also intrigued by the way use used the terminal bar.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Love it! Fantastic job!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

slowride said:


> great job! this is an awesome upgrade. can't wait ti hear your impressions on the subs.


Thanks man - a lot of inspo came your amp rack. Haven't tuned a thing yet but these GBs are making a very strong first impression. They measure better (without any EQ) than my 12TW3s did WITH. Measurements aside - it's clear they much more capable. I think TW3s with some more air would certainly open up a bit more.


M_Mark28 said:


> Nice work man, im sure that's going to sound amazing


Thanks!


UNBROKEN said:


> Looking great and keeping me motivated.


Thanks man and the feelings is mutual - those kicks you got started are motivating me to explore too


Sam b said:


> That’s quite a wknds work


Truthfully a TON of prep, planning and measurements went into this. I also got a headstart on the amp rack. But Saturday was a 10am to 12:30am day on it, then woke up 6am to 10am to wrap it up.


Stycker said:


> That is about as nice as they come. Looks great.


Thanks man!


Flygts said:


> Looks great! Super clean!


Appreciate it, it was all in the planning.


BobTheBirdTurd said:


> I like the layout, that is a lot of gear in a tiny space. I'm also intrigued by the way use used the terminal bar.


It was certainly a tight fit and the terminal bar has already paid off quite a bit for some testing I did. Again, inspired by @slowride for his use of them.


bertholomey said:


> Love it! Fantastic job!!!


Thanks man!


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## Nemesis87 (6 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> Then at the end of the night - around 11 pm, after accidentally cutting my signal and speaker harness in the wrong spot and screaming at the top of my lungs in frustration, decided to swap to a more straight forward task of prepping my sub box.
> 
> Gotta say I love the single terminal and switch the GB subs use, makes wiring so damn simple.
> View attachment 350770
> ...


Yes… but what did you have for breakfast? And did you put one, or two cubes of sugar in your tea?

Loving the build Rick!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

5db scale, 1/12 smoothing

Finally got a few minutes to port over half of my other tune (tweets, mids and some portion of the midbass) from my V8 and get the subs tuned a bit. They only needed work from 28hz down but they are getting down into the teens now pretty effortlessly. Only have a few songs so far but certainly gonna need some time to get used to the low end. Still a temp tune until my new mid/tweets pods come i. 

Crossing my doors at 80 now as well.

Also noticing the differences in dampening and dynamics in the new amps too. Especially at those higher volume.

AB vs Class D - jury is still out, def some level of warmth but nothing that sticks out currently.

smiling so far.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> View attachment 351040
> 
> 5db scale, 1/12 smoothing
> 
> ...


Did you break in the subs free air before hand? 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

Wow that amp rack looks mint ! I admire you guys who put so much aesthetics into something that is rarely seen. The back of my Sierra looks like crap (in comparison), but it works so eh watta ya gonna do. Interesting comments about hearing a difference in SQ with the amps as well. That tune looks amazing for 1/12 smoothing either I've never gotten close to that flat. 
Good work !


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

daloudin said:


> Did you break in the subs free air before hand?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I didn't - didn't even know that was a thing.


preston said:


> Wow that amp rack looks mint ! I admire you guys who put so much aesthetics into something that is rarely seen. The back of my Sierra looks like crap (in comparison), but it works so eh watta ya gonna do. Interesting comments about hearing a difference in SQ with the amps as well. That tune looks amazing for 1/12 smoothing either I've never gotten close to that flat.
> Good work !


Thanks man - it was more to test my own abilities and see if I could make it look neat and tidy but above all easy to access and service. Just today I had to swap out my USB cable to my DSP and it was nice to pop out the rear seat and replace the cable in under 2-3 minutes.

The amp difference is not really noticeable until you start getting north of 85-87db or so in listening volume, then it starts to really display the difference in control and dynamics. I don't note any difference in warmth that I feel commonly associated with AB amps - that's pure tuning in my opinion.

As for tuning - it certainly sounds great but I still have a lot to learn about adjustments by ear but slowly I feel I am getting more logical about my tune. Not diving to deep into this current tune as I am swapping out mids and tweet locations next week which is gonna affect crossovers so the only I have spent any time tuning right now are my subs. Rest of the system is from my previous amp, just level matched conservative for now.

In comparison, from a gain structure standpoint:

*My V8:*
Input gain (digital input) +2 db
Tweets (ch. gain) +3.5 db
Mids (ch. gain) +4.5 db
MB (ch. gain) +2 db
Subs (ch. gain) +1 db
Subs (P One) (about 40% of gain knob)

*New set up:*
Input gain 0 db
Tweets - Direct DSP Mode ON (fixed gain on amp) and -1 db on DSP
Mids - DDSP Mode ON and -4 db on DSP
MB - DDSP Mode ON and -7 db on DSP - the beauty of 2 ohm midbass
Subs - DDSP OFF and minimum gain setting on amp and -7 db on DSP

And as it stands my current system already has 2-3 db more output (seems to float up around 105-107 right now) compared to the V8 but based on the value above, there is a significant amount of headroom in the system AND 105db is more than enough to satisfy me. I love the beauty of DDSP on my front stage and how simple it was to match up. I have o scoped anything yet but I find it nearly impossible to believe anything is even close to clipping currently. I can easily squeeze another 5db from the system without ever touching gain on my amps if I really want my ears to bleed.


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> I didn't - didn't even know that was a thing.
> 
> Thanks man - it was more to test my own abilities and see if I could make it look neat and tidy but above all easy to access and service. Just today I had to swap out my USB cable to my DSP and it was nice to pop out the rear seat and replace the cable in under 2-3 minutes.
> 
> ...


Where is this located at on the dsp? Input gain (digital input)


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

Having the ddsp off for the sub what does that do?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Dgan21 said:


> Where is this located at on the dsp? Input gain (digital input)


I’ll have to screenshot it tomorrow but it’s in the IO sections where you do the input routing. Top right. 


Dgan21 said:


> Having the ddsp off for the sub what does that do?


Just allows for variable gain, direct dsp is too much gain unless I’d cut the channel gain in the dsp heavily. I might try it tho.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> I didn't - didn't even know that was a thing.


You run them on the bench at about xmax on their resonant frequency to loosen up the suspension. Doesn't take much free air. 

It's not necessary but it makes it easier to get a longer lasting tune since your initial tune will change slightly as the subs break in... the GB aren't as stiff mechanically as an SQL or Brahma but it can help. Just be ready for the bass to continue to "loosen" up and have a smidge more dynamics once they break in good. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Not sure if I am the only seeing DIYMA in a new format on my desktop? But anyways, quick tune update.

Disclaimer: This tune took me about 1.5 hours or so and there is still some fine tuning to be done but very happy with how efficient I was able to be to quickly get to a decent tune.

I had been waiting to do a fresh tune until I moved my mids back to dash mounts and tweeters to on axis Valicar pods but unfortunately won't have them in time for the meet up this weekend. So I decided to wipe the slate clean.

This time I decided to shift my crossovers based on the new subs and wanted to experiment with my mids. Crossovers are as follows:

Subs 0-80
Midbass 80-220
Midrange 220-2800
Tweeter 2800+

I am happy to share some raw measurements of drivers with conservative crossovers but you can find that in previous posts here in this thread.

Everything here is measured in 1/48 RTA and smoothed to 1/12.

*Graph #1 - Final Tune vs Individual Drivers*
This reflects the final tune and all individual drivers with crossovers only. Biggest thing not reflected here are the added gain I put into both subs and my midbass. I had all sorts of headroom with both of them so they both got about +5 db of gain then I started to EQ without a boatload of boosting.









*Graph #2 - Final Tune with Summed Pairs*
Sorry I forgot the EQ'ed subs. Forgot to measure those. There is still some work to be done on really ironing out some bumps but this is with simple EQ filters from REW and a couple of manual PEQ's that I put in after the first measurment.

Also keep in mind that I smoothed out the mids and tweets a bit using the virtual channels in the next graph.









*Graph #3 - The beauty of Virtual Channels*
So this was a new approach for me and in full discretion this was an experiment. My mids don't sum very smoothly and last time I tuned, I tried to smooth things with a ton of tiny PEQ filters on each driver and a ton of manual adjustments on the virtual channels.

You can see left and right front stages done individually in the purple and then the rocky road they leave you when summed in red.

So I took the summed response and dropped into REW EQ and designed my house curve to match to and let it run and generate filters. Generated about 15 filters which I then copied on to both left and right Front virtual channels in my Helix and voila - got a very nice front stage response that is centered and about 8-10 inches below my rearview mirror. I was honestly impressed how easy using the virtual channels to do this worked. I might be tuning reflections and other things I shouldn't, but I'm too naive/dumb to know if I am.









*Graph #4 - Old Tune vs New Tune*
Biggest take away from this graphic is to show the improvements sub 30hz (magenta area) and cutting a lot of excessive energy from 55 to 200 (red area). The low end is honestly going to take some getting used to, the subs are continuing to break in and take me by surprise in a few songs. The GBs are no slouch.

The 55-200hz cuts helped midbass become much more tactile and controlled, esp at the higher volumes and mostly important bass pulling my ears backwards to my subs. I am still working playing with TA and phase to get bass to remain upfront more but this change made a huge improvement in midbass / sub cohesion. 60-80hz previously could cause a gnarly pull to the subs out back beforehand. The pull is really is only present from sub 30hz now.

*









Overall everything feels far more natural and retains the impact of chest punching midbass that I was concerned about losing. *My only gripe is my stage width due to the install locations. I actually tried to create some differential virtual channels (for instance Front Left was: Front Left 90%, Front Right 10%(w/ inverted polarity)) and it seemed to have a marginal effect but mostly just created a less focused center stage rather than widen the entire stage. I did miss StageXpander from the v4 software for this issue.

Edit: Just got word from Nick that he actually going to power through (he's recovering from the flu) building my dash pods today/tomorrow so I should have them in place for the meet. Stoked as that should fix both summing and stage width issues.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Got started on my portable charging station today. Should wrap it up tomorrow after I get the wires loomed up.

Frame with handle and wire storage below.









Everything counter sunk and secured.









Then started layout for the unit itself. Going to be secured with M5 threaded inserts.









Then laid out where I wanted the volt meter to be and cut out the hole with a jig Saw and test fit.


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## NL5 (4 mo ago)

Looking forward to seeing the speaker pods. I keep going back and forth between surface mount or pods.....


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

NL5 said:


> Looking forward to seeing the speaker pods. I keep going back and forth between surface mount or pods.....


I’ve had them before for the BLAMs but I’m having these made to fit both the piccolo and mm3.

I do plan to have the Piccolo in a Valicar pods to see how I like on axis tweets and then if I like em, I’m gonna try building myself my own pillars for them. 

If don’t think it has that much of an impact. I’ll abandon the tweeter pods and put the Piccolo back in the dash pod with the MM3. I know that this orientation works well.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> The 55-200hz cuts helped midbass become much more tactile and controlled, esp at the higher volumes and mostly important bass pulling my ears backwards to my subs. I am still working playing with TA and phase to get bass to remain upfront more but this change made a huge improvement in midbass / sub cohesion. 60-80hz previously could cause a gnarly pull to the subs out back beforehand. The pull is really is only present from sub 30hz now.


This becomes an issue anytime you have subs like the GB or SQL that can really sing on the lowest octaves. Yet another in the long line of tradeoff compromises we make in car audio and the packaging constraints in such a confined listening environment. This is the real reason that I try to run my midbasses as low as possible so the timing extends as deep as possible...

Having worked in Live Audio for years, hearing the bass come from behind you on stage becomes pretty normal if you are a stage musician but as a FOH Sound Engineer it can be irritating at times. All Pass Filters can alleviate it some but can be an exercise in frustration unless you are really patient and methodical (IME.)


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Wrapped up my power supply today.

Started by making a small bracket to wrap the 4 gauge leads.








Leads are are loomed and roughly 7.5 feet long. Makes it pretty portable.








All done


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> Wrapped up my power supply today.
> 
> Started by making a small bracket to wrap the 4 gauge leads.
> View attachment 351925
> ...


May I ask how will this me used?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Dgan21 said:


> May I ask how will this me used?


100% - it's 100 amp power supply / battery charger with adjustable voltage. Allows me to keep my truck topped up for meet ups and competitions without needing to run my engine.

Also can used to power up amps and other 12V items on a test bench.


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

Oh ok, sweet


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

RickWilson said:


> 100% - it's 100 amp power supply / battery charger with adjustable voltage. Allows me to keep my truck topped up for meet ups and competitions without needing to run my engine.
> 
> Also can used to power up amps and other 12V items on a test bench.


I really like how you completed that power supply. I intended to do something similar with my old one, but my execution was no where near as nice. My installer mounted my CTEK to a good piece of ABS - cut a nice notch in the top that I can carry it by and so I can hang it from a hook on the wall. I couldn’t imagine not having a power supply for meets / comps. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

I love what you did as well. I competed at SVR this year and it was a disaster. I ended up with a dead battery at one point. They gave me a few minutes to remedy the sutuation. I brought a standard battery charger and kept it on 10 amp charge throughout the day. I'm sure there is a difference between a charger and a supplier. My bass amp kept cutting out. Some judges said "do you even have subs in your car?" while others said , "Thats some strong solid bass you have there". Needless to say I knew when it cut out based on what the judge said when they got out of my car. I will not compete at a big show without a power supply in the future. Somehow I managed to place well with a 2nd 3rd and 4th place finish. Who knows what could have happened without this mishap. You Live and Learn. Still learning life lessons in my mid 50's. Where did you get your power supply and how much did it cost if you don't mind?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Stycker said:


> I love what you did as well. I competed at SVR this year and it was a disaster. I ended up with a dead battery at one point. They gave me a few minutes to remedy the sutuation. I brought a standard battery charger and kept it on 10 amp charge throughout the day. I'm sure there is a difference between a charger and a supplier. My bass amp kept cutting out. Some judges said "do you even have subs in your car?" while others said , "Thats some strong solid bass you have there". Needless to say I knew when it cut out based on what the judge said when they got out of my car. I will not compete at a big show without a power supply in the future. Somehow I managed to place well with a 2nd 3rd and 4th place finish. Who knows what could have happened without this mishap. You Live and Learn. Still learning life lessons in my mid 50's. Where did you get your power supply and how much did it cost if you don't mind?


I've yet to do a comp or meet up so time will tell with this but I like that I can regulate the exact voltage and it seems to be variable in terms of ramping up and down as needed for amperage (up to 100amps) to keep things nice and topped up.

I bought it from @Huckleberry Sound here a few weeks ago for $350 I believe. I think woofersetc still has some in stock but they run $600 new.

I've run 10 amp chargers before and after about 30 min, my previous system was down to 11.5-12.0 volts. With ~2600W rms now, I wanted something that I knew would keep up.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

They’re just a must-have for comps or even friendly meets. At Finals mine was on any time I was judging or demoing…car wasn’t started for over 2 days and with it on battery voltage was a solid 14.3.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Been a few days since my meet up but finally got some time here and there towards the end of the this week to revise the mounting locations of my mid range and tweeter. I had gotten some very positive reviews from my truck and tune from folks during the meet up which was very encouraging given a few folks are professional installers.

But towards the end of the meet I finally got Nick to sit into my truck and he quickly stated it was doing everything right except two things to his ears - something was off with the attack of my mids and he's never been a fan of the sound subs inside a truck cab. He said the subs did sound correct and there really isn't anything more to do - his comment was more that upper subbass sounds a little too elevated but I am thinking it may be cabin gain in the 65-70 hz region.

The mids - he trialed a few songs and noticed that my mids would sound correct AFTER a note was struck but not when the note actually began, like it was getting mottled or cancelled - which I am guessing was from my mids firing directly across my dash at each other/cabin width. But I knew this was a concern from before hence Nick was fabbing me the new dash pods. I will dive into the new measurements in the next post but since I swapped locations to the dash again, it is a significant difference - exactly the conditions Nick described were eliminated. 

Installation, Application - as Peter says. Man it is true.

Anyways - here some pics of the set up. Only has a coarse tune but the new mid/tweeter locations are making a very good impression.

Getting mids into the pods -
















Mids installed, tweeter block off plate installed. You can see how much volume in the dash I have - helps a ton sub 400 hz.
















Then got the tweeter mounted
















It's a small step back aesthetically but a solid step forward in performance. Still love the dash pods and the Valicar pods match my pillar color almost exaclty.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

That’s effectively the same dash layout as my old Ram R/T and it performed very well. I think you’ll be pretty happy once you dial it in.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

UNBROKEN said:


> That’s effectively the same dash layout as my old Ram R/T and it performed very well. I think you’ll be pretty happy once you dial it in.


it measures almost identical as previous set ups (except certainly more top extension) but sounds so much snappier and tight, like catching me off guard with new details. 

there’s still some 2-3 db peaks in the 200-600hz range that need to be tamed but once that’s cleaned up, I’ll feel confident to try out a comp or two.

I’m actually going to build a few different tunes with various crossover once I get some additional time. Right now crossovers are 80/220/2500 and it’s been my favorite so far. Going to try 80/260/2500, 80/300/2500.

I don’t think I’ll move my mids much above 2500 because I get some cancellations from my windshield / grab handles that are -8 to -10db in that 2.5-2.7Khz range.

more to come


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## Pigeon (3 mo ago)

do not break up your foam into pieces on the midrange baffle. That leaves little gaps for air to escape out of and create resonance. Go right over the holes and screw straight through the foam.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So on Friday I only got about 20 min to re tune my mids and tweets and spent some time this morning cleaning out a few things. I know I say it every time I re-tune my truck but this time, it is easily the best it has ever sounded. It has measured close to this well before but has never _sounded_ this good. Like I am fully into the phase of re-listening to all of my music again. 

To quote an earlier post from Nick in this thread - I feel the system has graduated from the good to the _oh, wow_ type of impression. I sat last night after dinner and was getting emotionally moved from some tracks I've listened to hundreds of times before.

My subs obviously made a big difference and leave me wanting nothing more, until I get a vehicle suitable for IB + front sub. Especially now that they are broken in, the GB12 is a fantastic sub.

The change of the mid into a proper dash mount and moving tweeters to on axis (+/- 10 deg) made such a positive change to the staging and imaging side of the house. As you will see in the graphs below, while my pillars were able to sound great with some tuning and could measure well - their locations caused a lot of turbulence. Now hearing how the drivers perform in their new locations, it's just so much more concise, tight and direct. Well worth the effort and regression of the aesthetics

Ok, some data.

Everything below is 1/12 Smoothing from a 1/48 RTA (32 avg)

So for a quick reference from what folks heard on my meet up on the 29th vs my tune now. Not entirely relevant because drivers in a different locations now but I was curious about it. But, cleaned a some junk from 50 to 500. I may put a touch energy back in to 50-60Hz but I really enjoy the midbass/subbass relationship right now.









So starting with some comparisons from my pillars to my dash mids/tweeters in pods.

Mids - 
This was previously documented but wanted to confirm with the new physcial pod Nick made for me. This is with a 100Hz 24LR high pass. Huge difference below 500 hz and but lose out a bit from 2500+, I ended up moving my cross overs a bit because of this.









Then swapped in 220/2800Hz crossovers. Initially, when crossed at a matching 2500Hz crossover from my tweeter there wasn't enough energy to work and was moving my acoustic crossover closer to 2200, so then I moved the mid crossover to 2800 (tweet still at 2500) and allowed for easier time to EQ and acoustically cross at 2500.

MM3 before and after EQ









Tweeters - 
Pretty obvious improvement here, both in raw measurement and performance. This is a 1000Hz 24LR high pass. I have them playing clean up to about 18KHz.









Piccolo before and after EQ. 2500Hz LR24 high pass.









Then finally some measurements showing final tune vs pair/individual drivers.

Final vs individual drivers









Final vs summed pairs -









Then I compared to my tune of yesterday to today. Not sure where the peak 12.5K came from tbh.









Then just the final tune. 









I still have some turbulence in the 500-700 range that I am sure an all pass or something might help me but I'm still reading on but nothing stands out to my ears right now. I finally feel I have that full spectrum experience where I am excited to listen to ANY track in my library without hesitation.

Still gonna explore IB midbass but that's going to be my winter project. 

For now, I'm hanging up my tools on my own truck for now and letting my ears enjoy.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Very nice, man. Now enjoy it for a few weeks then I’ll start goading you into those kicks. lol


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## teh_squirrel (Jan 16, 2020)

I know before the stage was a little narrow and the mid to tweet was too defined (mid to tweet wasn't blending as well), but I liked the midbass and the piccolo tweets are real smooth. I can't wait to see + hear more


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## Decil (Sep 12, 2016)

Great build thread you've compiled of your journey, and many thanks for sharing! I have '21 GMC that I'm designing a system for right now, and you've helped address many concerns I had with OE integration, backseat amp rack tolerances, etc. You've even used much the same equipment I've considered. 😝

It's awesome to hear you've found a tune that may allow you to enjoy all your efforts for a moment, but when the itch comes back, definitely pursue a new MB install. I plan on going IB through the kicks/firewall once I begin. 👍


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Decil said:


> Great build thread you've compiled of your journey, and many thanks for sharing! I have '21 GMC that I'm designing a system for right now, and you've helped address many concerns I had with OE integration, backseat amp rack tolerances, etc. You've even used much the same equipment I've considered. 😝
> 
> It's awesome to hear you've found a tune that may allow you to enjoy all your efforts for a moment, but when the itch comes back, definitely pursue a new MB install. I plan on going IB through the kicks/firewall once I begin. 👍


Appreciate it man, it's been a fun ride. 21 Sierra? What's the game plan equipment wise

Going to address a couple things in my doors that I haven't tried yet - black hole tiles and rigid block off plates. I know it won't fix my issue but hope to squeeze the last bit out of the doors until I tackle IB kicks.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

RickWilson said:


> I sat last night after dinner and was getting emotionally moved from some tracks I've listened to hundreds of times before.


This comment from almost a year ago hits home. “Normal” people can not understand the *emotional* aspect of car audio. Chill bumps on top of chill bumps…that’s when you know you’ve nailed the tune. Close your eyes and just let the music envelope you in a blanket of audio nirvana. Epic thread Rick! Thanks for all the updates!


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## Decil (Sep 12, 2016)

RickWilson said:


> Appreciate it man, it's been a fun ride. 21 Sierra? What's the game plan equipment wise


Yeah, I needed a new truck for work and was able to pick up my Denali about 18 months ago. I opted to spend all my play money on the engine out of the gate, so I've been complacent with the factory Bose system thus far, but soon it'll finally get the love it deserves. 

As far as equipment goes, anything could change as I continue the design (as you may relate 😉)... For now the plan is to use a set of Bliesma silk tweets in a custom a-pillar pod once I find the optimal location and aim on the pillar. I plan on getting the matching Bliesma silk mids and do a similar dash mount to what you did with Nick's help. I want to design an IB setup in the firewall/kicks for my MB, I would much prefer this over the door. If I can make IB work, the Utopia 8s are on the short list of drivers for the task. If I can't find a practical way to go IB, then I will go for compact kicks and probably run something like the Accuton MB. The sub stage is a complete question still. I already have an IDMAX 12 and IDQ 12 that I could repurpose if I do a sealed box under the seat, but I'm currently helping my brother with an AE 18" IB install, and that makes me think about silly options in my truck. 😂😂😂😂 Lastly I will run a Zapco HDSP w/ the 9038 Pro DAC and a set of Zapco AP/Helix C Fours/Mosconi Pro amps once I determine final power needs.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

Question: What powered the Zapco external charger you built? I just upgraded to an X2 Power AGM and would like to have something like that for comps. I purchased the X2 Power drip charger at the same time. I wonder if I could just use it?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Decil said:


> Yeah, I needed a new truck for work and was able to pick up my Denali about 18 months ago. I opted to spend all my play money on the engine out of the gate, so I've been complacent with the factory Bose system thus far, but soon it'll finally get the love it deserves.
> 
> As far as equipment goes, anything could change as I continue the design (as you may relate 😉)... For now the plan is to use a set of Bliesma silk tweets in a custom a-pillar pod once I find the optimal location and aim on the pillar. I plan on getting the matching Bliesma silk mids and do a similar dash mount to what you did with Nick's help. I want to design an IB setup in the firewall/kicks for my MB, I would much prefer this over the door. If I can make IB work, the Utopia 8s are on the short list of drivers for the task. If I can't find a practical way to go IB, then I will go for compact kicks and probably run something like the Accuton MB. The sub stage is a complete question still. I already have an IDMAX 12 and IDQ 12 that I could repurpose if I do a sealed box under the seat, but I'm currently helping my brother with an AE 18" IB install, and that makes me think about silly options in my truck. 😂😂😂😂 Lastly I will run a Zapco HDSP w/ the 9038 Pro DAC and a set of Zapco AP/Helix C Fours/Mosconi Pro amps once I determine final power needs.


That's going to be a hell of a build man. I started on non-audio mods myself but only simple engine items so far. S&B CAI and a pulsar LT. Company truck after all and need to keep warranty in tact.

I haven't looked too hard if my BLAMs will make good IB contenders but I think I have just sold myself on the 8WMs as well, they seem to have a great track record in IB MB builds. There's a few options for sub builds for sure but depends mostly on seat lift or not.

Looking forward to seeing your build come together.



saltyone said:


> Question: What powered the Zapco external charger you built? I just upgraded to an X2 Power AGM and would like to have something like that for comps. I purchased the X2 Power drip charger at the same time. I wonder if I could just use it?


Zapco just plugs into a standard 110V wall outlet. It seems X2 has either a 7.5 or 0.8 amp version, the 7.5 amp might keep up? I kind of doubt it.

I know my Zapco provides up to 100 amps and I played my system all day long and it never ever moved off 14.0V. Also made me realize that the truck won't exit run mode because of the charger. Used to always time out after 30 min or less because of voltage drop/low voltage (even with a 10 amp charger).


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

Yep…it’s only 7.5A. I’ll look at getting something similar to your Zapco. The guys at the store where I purchased the battery said to put the charger on once per month and let it charge over night to enhance the longevity of the battery. I figure they know about batteries than I do, so I plan to put it on the calendar.


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## Decil (Sep 12, 2016)

RickWilson said:


> That's going to be a hell of a build man. I started on non-audio mods myself but only simple engine items so far. S&B CAI and a pulsar LT. Company truck after all and need to keep warranty in tact.


I bought the 4 gallon intake as well 😂 I've yet to install it though, as my primary upgrade was a 3.0L Whipple supercharger and now I have to custom fab an intake tube to make it work. I hesitated for the first 700 miles on voiding my warranty for the supercharger, but I enjoy performance too much to not (plus I'm a dealer so it's good advertising 🤷). Coincidentally enough, I've had a water pump and A/C compressor failure, and GM warrantied both. 😁


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

I've been enjoying your build process looks good. I ran several iterations of mids/tweets on axis in large pods on the pillar/dash but finally ended up with dash mounted mids. Ostensibly in the factory location but its a complete custom mount where I shoe horned in some Satori 5" mids. Anything I gave up in perfect tonality and low reflections was paid back in having a much deeper stage and depth to stage. With on axis pods it felt like you were sitting in the very front row, too close and shouty especially for the passenger who has to live with the one seat tune. 

I've posted this before but here is my '15 Sierra subwoofer solution - an Alpine Type-R 15" with a 2ft3 cabinet underneath the floor. I still have quite a bit of underseat storage. 

Cabinet doesn't stick below the frame rails or compromise anything in any way and its been a great solution for me. Of course it woudl have been easier to just make it IB but I often listen to my system late at night in campgrounds and other areas and appreciate not blasting bass out to everyone. I could always cut a hole in the bottom of the cabinet to experiment with IB or AP but the response is pretty good on the RTA so haven't felt the need - 2 ft3 is plenty for this 15" anyway. My only remaining thought is that maybe its not the most SQ of subs but I have my doubts I'd be able to tell the difference in that region anyway.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Small update from a quick two hour sprint tonight after work to get my front doors treated.

Tonight's objectives were to
Open up my front doors (for the first time in about a year surprisingly (my BLAMs are actually the longest lasting piece of major equipment that's in my truck)
Remove the the soundskins covering my service openings in my doors
Remove existing Dynamat CCF
Add Resonix Blackhole Tiles
Add SGS HDPE block off plates
Add CLD to door cards
Reinstall door cards

I was hoping to get squeeze a bit more out of my doors as I feel my midbass is a bit muddy when compared to the rest of my system. The membrane of the sound skins is pretty rigid but does flex under heavy load and I'd guess absorbing some energy that it shouldn't be. The CCF in the door interior is probably not doing a ton in terms of helping my response (better than nothing). So hoping 18 Blackhole tiles per door and rigid block off plates would help tighten my midbass up a bit.

So here we go.

Doors off. Speakers removed - my doors were very damp inside, Maine is going from 30 degree nights to 40 degree days so lots of condensation but my BLAMs looked like the day I put them in, quite happy.
















Then I carved out the Soundskins from both doors and removed the existing CCF which was as much off a PITA as it was the first time.

















Each door got 7 tiles directly behind each of the drivers









Then tried to equally space the remaining 11 tiles for each door.

























Then installed the block off plates









Gets a nice, embossed seal into the soundskins, door is pretty damn near airtight at this point. I also added a couple sheets of Resonix CLD to my door cards that I forgot to take photos of. I was hurrying to pick up my pup from doggy daycare.









Only got about 20 - 25 min of drive time with it and a few songs so far but certainly notice a fair improvement in cleanliness and tightness of midbass. Played Diggin on James Brown, Take the Power Back, Slipknot Live in London Drum Solo (this sounded much better, esp for the double bass drum freq - a lot more control. I also feel from a resonance standpoint point, the door card had a fair amount less vibration than usual. A small step forward overall. I'll measure them tomorrow to see if anything has changed.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Day before last I was able to clean up a few things in my tune. Mostly remove some cut eq that I had used below 20 hz while my subs were breaking in, so the subs now roll off down in 13-14hz range vs 18/19 before. Overall much more authority and presence below 25hz now, esp with string instruments. Also cleaned up a little bit of sub/midbass blending and lastly, a couple of peaks that were in the 3-4k range that were getting a little aggressive, esp with the humidity and temperatures dropping quickly now.

1/48 RTA, 1/12 Smoothing, 32 Avg, 5 db scale









Overall ended up with this. It's sounding very, very complete. Very linear and full. This is the first time the truck has sounded like it's actually measuring. It went to show me that a vehicle can measure well and still sound average, install locations showing their strength here. This tune giving me the most detail I have had yet - the subs continue to get better and better. Everything also feels very balanced - I feel the longer I tune, the flatter I tune, not big huge chunks of db but rather -1/-2 db in subbass and changing db/oct from 200 to 50-80hz, I very much enjoy how this current curve sounds, the top end (above 4k) might be even too detailed for my old man ears but for now, I'm in the "go through all music again" phase, so, happy. 

I wish this is what I could have demo'ed at our meet up but spring will be here soon enough.

I may try moving my midbass cross over back down to 70 hz or even 65 to see how it sounds. Cabin gain in the 65hz range creates a touch of pull backwards from the subs. It's one of the main motivators for IB kicks where I think I could cross down to 55-60 hz without issue and the sub/midbass blend would be more controlled and stable.


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## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Small update from a quick two hour sprint tonight after work to get my front doors treated.
> 
> Tonight's objectives were to
> Open up my front doors (for the first time in about a year surprisingly (my BLAMs are actually the longest lasting piece of major equipment that's in my truck)
> ...


Looking good man. 
I was really impressed the difference the black hole tiles made, I'm also running block off plate as well and heavily treated doors. 
Sounds like the GMC doors flow water like the F150s. I was actually surprised how soaked my black hole tiles were last time I had to open my doors up, it's a good thing they are treated for mold resistance. 

You're kind of making me wanna get pods for my Gb15's to get them more on axis.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Got about another 90 min of seat time this morning. About 50/50 driving vs parked and I’m thoroughly impressed by the difference in tightness of my midbass and a large reduction of resonances on my doors.

I went through my worst culprits of door resonance:

Heat Waves - Glass Animals
I will survive - Musica Nada - this song is brutal on sub 200hz resonance if your doors aren’t treated right. Major difference in clarity of the cello. Still some very minor resonances remain but I’d say an 80% improvement. 
Wicked Game - Daisy Grey - those low piano notes are far cleaner and controlled, the reverb doesn’t get out of control
Faith - Lake Street Dive - upright bass is tight and far less boomy.

So overall - very much pleased with door treatment. Those acoustic bass/strings and piano have really taken shape and become much more musical and controlled.

It’s making me re-think if I want to pursue the effort of IB kicks or not, or hold off on a venture like that until my next vehicle. We will see, I know I get restless after a while.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Rick. Hold off for the next vehicle. Get yours a small sports car to do next


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

Getting ready to start my install next week. Do the Blackhole Tiles really make that much of a noticeable difference? I was going to get some, but I'm already way over budget.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Sam b said:


> Rick. Hold off for the next vehicle. Get yours a small sports car to do next


Yeah at this point I am targeting an A6 Allroad, V60/V90 or maybe something smaller like an RS3. I'm feeling this improvement cleans up midbass enough for me to be satisfied.



BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Getting ready to start my install next week. Do the Blackhole Tiles really make that much of a noticeable difference? I was going to get some, but I'm already way over budget.


It's hard to say it was just the BH tiles but that combo'ed with the block off plates make a very noticeable difference to me. It's worth the couple hundred bucks if you can swing it.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Yeah at this point I am targeting an A6 Allroad, V60/V90 or maybe something smaller like an RS3. I'm feeling this improvement cleans up midbass enough for me to be satisfied.
> 
> 
> 
> It's hard to say it was just the BH tiles but that combo'ed with the block off plates make a very noticeable difference to me. It's worth the couple hundred bucks if you can swing it.


Thanks, I was leaning towards getting them. What's a budget anyway?  Thankfully, my doors come sealed from the factory so I don't have to worry about block off plates.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Thanks, I was leaning towards getting them. What's a budget anyway?  Thankfully, my doors come sealed from the factory so I don't have to worry about block off plates.


Lol my original budget was $1500, think I am just over 10x that now lol.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

i used black hole tiles in my front doors also. unknown if they do anything as i installed them as i was building out my doors. i will say though, they are some of the most solid doors i've ever encountered. you can feel they are heavy af just swinging them open.


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## MONARCHAUDIO (11 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> Yeah at this point I am targeting an A6 Allroad, V60/V90 or maybe something smaller like an RS3. I'm feeling this improvement cleans up midbass enough for me to be satisfied.
> 
> 
> 
> It's hard to say it was just the BH tiles but that combo'ed with the block off plates make a very noticeable difference to me. It's worth the couple hundred bucks if you can swing it.


This is great it gives me guidance when I go to install my new Blam Multix 8’s in January. I’m waiting to install your old Dash Pods with the Blam Multix Tweets and 3” mid so I’ll be ready for a tune all at once.

Also much did you do to the rear doors?


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## Mike_Saw_75 (8 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> Then installed the block off plates


Did you end up using Rivnuts or just screw them in using self-tapping screws? I have some stainless 10-24 rivnuts and screws I plan on using but they are slightly big so I have to drill out the plates a little to make them work.

I'm breaking down and ordering the Blackhole Tiles since I want to do the sound deadening once and only once if I can.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Lol my original budget was $1500, think I am just over 10x that now lol.


Welp, there goes another $330 bones added to the project. Ordered a box of 72.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

So these black hole tiles. Where exactly do you install them? I already have my inner doors done w secondskin. But nick just told me I can use them w my other stuff together. Any guidance would be huge


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

They go over the second skin on the outer door skin. Generally behind the midbass, but many do 100% of the entire outer door skin. See post 430.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Ok. Excellent. Appreciate it.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

MONARCHAUDIO said:


> This is great it gives me guidance when I go to install my new Blam Multix 8’s in January. I’m waiting to install your old Dash Pods with the Blam Multix Tweets and 3” mid so I’ll be ready for a tune all at once.
> 
> Also much did you do to the rear doors?


You can peak earlier in the build but rear doors have 80% Resonix CLD coverage on outer metal skin with equal coverage of 1/2" Dynamat CCF, inner metal skin is 99% coverage with Soundskins Pro (haven't taken these off for block off plates yet, don't really have a need to for rear fill) and the plastic door card probably has 30-40% CLD coverage and 60-70% CCF coverage.


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## ResoNix (2 mo ago)

Damn Rick, are you a paid shill for this company or something?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Mike_Saw_75 said:


> Did you end up using Rivnuts or just screw them in using self-tapping screws? I have some stainless 10-24 rivnuts and screws I plan on using but they are slightly big so I have to drill out the plates a little to make them work.
> 
> I'm breaking down and ordering the Blackhole Tiles since I want to do the sound deadening once and only once if I can.


I ran out of time to get my rivnuts installed truthfully (I will tackle that sometime this winter) but I'm using some #10x3/4" self tapping stainless screws currently.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

ResoNix said:


> Damn Rick, are you a paid shill for this company or something?


Nah, I just suck at Halo and figured I'd throw you a bone.


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## ResoNix (2 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> Nah, I just suck at Halo and figured I'd throw you a bone.


And here I was thinking your top 32 placing actually meant something, smh.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

ResoNix said:


> And here I was thinking your top 32 placing actually meant something, smh.


We will see tonight, I'll bring my Astros home and see how much my K/D goes up by.


----------



## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Definitely excited to try the black hole tiles. Is 72 of them enough for 2 doors.


----------



## ResoNix (2 mo ago)

Sam b said:


> Definitely excited to try the black hole tiles. Is 72 of them enough for 2 doors.


on the product page 


> 72 Tiles Are enough to do FULL COVERAGE on a pair of doors in most cars. Full coverage will make better use of the Mass Loaded Vinyl layer for blocking outside noise. That said, half coverage is enough to get good absorption while still making some use of the MLV layer for resonance purposes. It is recommended to apply these after applying our ResoNix Squares.


Honest question and im not trying to be a dick, but this is the perfect time to ask.. Does the site not do a good job of easily laying things out? If so, please tell me and i will make changes to anything to make it easier and better. Sometimes my own "horse blinders" gets in the way of me seeing what is wrong with the site.


----------



## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

I didn’t even really look. All I did was scan the product and price and how many it was. I’m still working so in between coats of finish I’m checking back in on things and all. I would have looked into it later today when I get home. I’m sure your website is very informative, I just didn’t research yet.


----------



## ResoNix (2 mo ago)

Sam b said:


> I didn’t even really look. All I did was scan the product and price and how many it was. I’m still working so in between coats of finish I’m checking back in on things and all. I would have looked into it later today when I get home. I’m sure your website is very informative, I just didn’t research yet.


Gotcha. Just wanted to put that note out there for anyone who may not get every bit of info and clarification they need from the site, let me know and i will improve it.


----------



## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

I was going to say add a pick or 2 of what it looks like installed, but before I hit post I went and checked so I didn't look like a dummy. Sure enough, there was one already.


----------



## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

More pics the better. I’m curious. Later today I will really look into it. But reading ricks review really peaked my interest. He’s a hell of a salesman


----------



## ResoNix (2 mo ago)

Sam b said:


> More pics the better. I’m curious. Later today I will really look into it. But reading ricks review really peaked my interest. He’s a hell of a salesman


He's a shill!


----------



## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

ResoNix said:


> He's a shill!


WTF is a "shill"? Kinda scared to Google it at work.


----------



## ResoNix (2 mo ago)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> WTF is a "shill"? Kinda scared to Google it at work.


Shill : an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others. 

Im kidding. We just made and sell bad ass products that cannot be beaten


----------



## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

ResoNix said:


> Shill : an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.
> 
> Im kidding. We just made and sell bad ass products that cannot be beaten


LOL, lernt a new word today.


----------



## Sirikenewtron (Nov 4, 2020)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Getting ready to start my install next week. Do the Blackhole Tiles really make that much of a noticeable difference? I was going to get some, but I'm already way over budget.


So I did my doors in stages, had the block off plates and the doors heavily sound treated for a year before I decided to install black hole tiles. To me the black hole tiles made a noticeable difference that was very well worth it.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So now that I have gotten a few days with the block off plates and my tune where I ultimately want it and finally feel like I'm not chasing a dangling carrot anymore. Interestingly enough, @Nemesis87 were chatting about what the "chase" of SQ does to your perception of music and how it can slowly (or rapidly) undermine the original reason for pursuing a hobby like this - to experience and enjoy music the best way possible (in a vehicle). 

I truly am beginning to feel satisfied with the truck as it stands today. Sure I can spend more money on some finer equipment or deaden the living hell out of it but for a 1-2% gain in perceived improvement? Nah, I've come to terms I am saving that next surge for a better SQ oriented vehicle. I will continue to tinker with tuning and different crossovers and maybe IB kicks for fun but anything I pursue at this point is for the sake of experimentation / helping others. I'll be heading to Nick's shop in March and will let him get a fresh crack at a full tune and see how my tune stacks up against his 

My last takeaway from last night's listening session was little draw my system has, electrically. I bought a clamp meter last week and tested a few songs at full tilt and never pulled more than 35 amps, I honestly didn't believe my meter. Tested again last night with another clamp meter and we got the same results 35-36 amps at 100% volume @ 2600W RMS. 

Kinda wild but everything besides subs are on DDSP and the subs are literally on minimum gain possible. I just have to assume my subs really don't need loads of power to get loud in the air volume I have. @Nemesis87 clamped his single Zero 4 on a test bench and it was pulling close 50 amps. Very, very impressed how efficient the Pro Series Mosconi amps are. Now I understand why Nick can run 6 Pro amps in his Volvo in stock electrical.


----------



## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Glad your are in a happy place Rick... sounds like it's time to enjoy...!


----------



## abbispa (Feb 24, 2015)

One of my favorite quotes, and I am not sure to whom to give credit, "happiness is wanting what you've got, not getting getting what you want".


----------



## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

abbispa said:


> One of my favorite quotes, and I am not sure to whom to give credit, "happiness is wanting what you've got, not getting getting what you want".


To Quote the great Dave Matthews, "What I want is what I've not got, but what I need is all around me"


----------



## DjKurt (2 mo ago)

Good lord man. I just stumbled across this forum while doing some research for my truck and @Willbo told me to check out your build. I was up until 2 am last night reading this epic journey of a build. Definitely way more in depth than I want to get (and absolutely way more money lol) but wow. Everything looks so clean and professional. I wish you lived around Detroit so I could hear it. Absolutely awesome build.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

DjKurt said:


> Good lord man. I just stumbled across this forum while doing some research for my truck and @Willbo told me to check out your build. I was up until 2 am last night reading this epic journey of a build. Definitely way more in depth than I want to get (and absolutely way more money lol) but wow. Everything looks so clean and professional. I wish you lived around Detroit so I could hear it. Absolutely awesome build.


Very much appreciate the kind words!

It’s certainly been a humbling but exciting experience to try so many things in the vehicle. I do plan to head to SVR this coming fall and hopefully you make the trip down and come take a listen.

What truck are you planning on building in? I’m happy to help with any feedback and don’t be shy to reach out with any questions


----------



## DjKurt (2 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> Very much appreciate the kind words!
> 
> It’s certainly been a humbling but exciting experience to try so many things in the vehicle. I do plan to head to SVR this coming fall and hopefully you make the trip down and come take a listen.
> 
> What truck are you planning on building in? I’m happy to help with any feedback and don’t be shy to reach out with any questions


I have a 2017 Silverado CC. I started a post here if you want to check it out. Don't need to hog up your thread with my stuff.


----------



## 619Tundra (Sep 24, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> I ran out of time to get my rivnuts installed truthfully (I will tackle that sometime this winter) but I'm using some #10x3/4" self tapping stainless screws currently.


Do these Block Off Plates come Pre-drilled?


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

619Tundra said:


> Do these Block Off Plates come Pre-drilled?


yup they do. And countersunk.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Funny short story from last night. My future father in law (early 60s) was riding in my truck with me and my gf and I left him alone in the driver’s seat while her and I bought some groceries. I que’d up 4-5 songs I knew he’d like and told him to crank it as loud as he liked.

Fast forward 20 minutes and I come out to him head banging to Kickstart My Heart at nearly full tilt and I had to laugh. He had some old systems in the 90s in his truck but he kept saying he’s never heard so much detail and separation in music, ever, in his life. Even though I know he doesn’t have a lot of reference for good systems in his life, he must have asked questions for 20 minutes after we got back in truck.

I just wanted to share because I think it’s always fun to introduce someone to a different level of experiencing music. Makes the investment of time and money more worth it.


----------



## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Funny short story from last night. My future father in law (early 60s) was riding in my truck with me and my gf and I left him alone in the driver’s seat while her and I bought some groceries. I que’d up 4-5 songs I knew he’d like and told him to crank it as loud as he liked.
> 
> Fast forward 20 minutes and I come out to him head banging to Kickstart My Heart at nearly full tilt and I had to laugh. He had some old systems in the 90s in his truck but he kept saying he’s never heard so much detail and separation in music, ever, in his life. Even though I know he doesn’t have a lot of reference for good systems in his life, he must have asked questions for 20 minutes after we got back in truck.
> 
> I just wanted to share because I think it’s always fun to introduce someone to a different level of experiencing music. Makes the investment of time and money more worth it.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Awesome story.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

RickWilson said:


> Funny short story from last night. My future father in law (early 60s) was riding in my truck with me and my gf and I left him alone in the driver’s seat while her and I bought some groceries. I que’d up 4-5 songs I knew he’d like and told him to crank it as loud as he liked.
> 
> Fast forward 20 minutes and I come out to him head banging to Kickstart My Heart at nearly full tilt and I had to laugh. He had some old systems in the 90s in his truck but he kept saying he’s never heard so much detail and separation in music, ever, in his life. Even though I know he doesn’t have a lot of reference for good systems in his life, he must have asked questions for 20 minutes after we got back in truck.
> 
> I just wanted to share because I think it’s always fun to introduce someone to a different level of experiencing music. Makes the investment of time and money more worth it.


Michael Jackson’s “Black and White” always opens eyes. The intro with the boy arguing with his dad at the beginning. New listeners always look at me and ask, “what happened?”. I just smile and say “wait for it”. You should demo at least one normal song first, so they hear what the system sounds like…then “Boom!”…mind blown.


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## M_Mark28 (Mar 11, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> Funny short story from last night. My future father in law (early 60s) was riding in my truck with me and my gf and I left him alone in the driver’s seat while her and I bought some groceries. I que’d up 4-5 songs I knew he’d like and told him to crank it as loud as he liked.
> 
> Fast forward 20 minutes and I come out to him head banging to Kickstart My Heart at nearly full tilt and I had to laugh. He had some old systems in the 90s in his truck but he kept saying he’s never heard so much detail and separation in music, ever, in his life. Even though I know he doesn’t have a lot of reference for good systems in his life, he must have asked questions for 20 minutes after we got back in truck.
> 
> I just wanted to share because I think it’s always fun to introduce someone to a different level of experiencing music. Makes the investment of time and money more worth it.


Thats awesome, I recently demoed my car for my little brother and the first thing he said was, can you do that to my car lol


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## Flygts (Aug 17, 2021)

That’s awesome. I just demoed my car for a headphone audiophile yesterday, and he was blown away by the image, separation, and frequency response. He said he didn’t know a car could sound that good.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

Rick, can give me a link to the bus bars (or whatever they are called) you used for your speaker wire termination at the rack?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Rick, can give me a link to the bus bars (or whatever they are called) you used for your speaker wire termination at the rack?











Amazon.com: MILAPEAK Terminal Block and Strip - 4 pcs 8 Positions 600V 25A Dual Row Screw Terminals Strip with Cover + 8 pcs 400V 25A 8 Positions Pre-Insulated Terminal Barrier Jumper Strips Black & Red : Industrial & Scientific


Buy MILAPEAK Terminal Block and Strip - 4 pcs 8 Positions 600V 25A Dual Row Screw Terminals Strip with Cover + 8 pcs 400V 25A 8 Positions Pre-Insulated Terminal Barrier Jumper Strips Black & Red: Ground Circuit Terminal Blocks - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com




For the termination bars









Amazon.com: haisstronica 330PCS #10 Marine Grade Heat Shrink Fork Connectors,22-10 Gauge Tinned Copper Crimp Connectors Fork Terminals,Insulated Electrical Fork Connector(3Colors/3Size) : Industrial & Scientific


Buy haisstronica 330PCS #10 Marine Grade Heat Shrink Fork Connectors,22-10 Gauge Tinned Copper Crimp Connectors Fork Terminals,Insulated Electrical Fork Connector(3Colors/3Size): Butt - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com




For the terminations


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

Thanks, I saw those but couldn't tell if they were connected in the middle.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Time to add about 3db to the bottom of my house curve to mask the noise these Nokian tires all winter long. I absolutely love these tires but man are they noisy. 

Time to order Fiber Mat 45 and some CLD for my front wheel wells. Also going to fill above my headliner with Fiber Mat as well.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

Do what I do when I had my giant 37" Toyo OpenCountry MT tires.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Lol - I'm already making myself deaf listening at 105 db+ a lot of the time but I will def be exercising that volume knob a bit more.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

please update once the fibermat 45 is installed in wheel liner. my 33's are starting to get noisy


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah I'm curious if that will help much on a truck where so much of the tire is exposed it seems that the noise will permeate through everywhere and lining the fender liner won't make nearly the degree of difference it might in a sedan. Because I've contemplated working my liners as well but just hard to believe it will help much when so much noise will just carry up and under the floor.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Hi, I’m Rick and I’m an audioholic. Bought these cause the deal was too good to pass and have a pair TBMs coming later this week. Literally no issue with my Piccolo/MM3 but I’m starting to gather gear for when my fiancé get a new vehicle next summer. So either she’s getting my current Morel set up or these Utopias. I’ll test em out in my truck next week sometime.

But god damn, these drivers are so damn sexy. Can’t wait to see the TBMs.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

I would love to here your thoughts on how they sound compared to the Morels. I'm not changing, but I almost went the Utopia route.


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

Wow that was quick on new gear once again lol


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> I would love to here your thoughts on how they sound compared to the Morels. I'm not changing, but I almost went the Utopia route.


Def will be posting some thoughts on comparing both set ups with some measurements as well .

I don’t expect anything to “improve” but anxious to hear the nuances. I expect the Utopias to be a bit more forward in their presentation than the Morels.




Dgan21 said:


> Wow that was quick on new gear once again lol


lol I consider my truck the forum test bench. I never intended on swapping things out but a deal is a deal. I also figure the Utopias are a fairly safe investment and always sell well. Mostly trying to gather up a second system (short of a dsp/signal integration/midbass until she decides what vehicle to buy).


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

Funny, I keep telling my wife the truck is next. She thinks the factory radio sounds fine, and won't let me touch it. One day soon, she will think I just buying more stuff for my ride, then she will walk outside and I'll have the truck tore apart. SURPRISE! 😁


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

Definitely want to hear ur thoughts on the utopia compared to your current set up.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Funny, I keep telling my wife the truck is next. She thinks the factory radio sounds fine, and won't let me touch it. One day soon, she will think I just buying more stuff for my ride, then she will walk outside and I'll have the truck tore apart. SURPRISE!


Careful! My wife's ride started as "... something with wireless CarPlay..." to replace the HU. Then coaxial door replacements... Then "... why are there grills in my dash if there's no sound..." so the coax turned into components. Then "... why don't I have bass like yours..." and you can guess the rest. Nothing like chasing your own wife down the rabbit hole! 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

daloudin said:


> Careful! My wife's ride started as "... something with wireless CarPlay..." to replace the HU. Then coaxial door replacements... Then "... why are there grills in my dash if there's no sound..." so the coax turned into components. Then "... why don't I have bass like yours..." and you can guess the rest. Nothing like chasing your own wife down the rabbit hole!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Already have Morel Hybrids just sitting in the garage with no home. I have a couple Focal amps that are 1 channel shy of what's needed. I also happen to need a new DSP since I sold my TWK88. A new Helix P6 would fit the bill nicely. 

She also wondered why I bought so much wire for my build.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Funny, I keep telling my wife the truck is next. She thinks the factory radio sounds fine, and won't let me touch it. One day soon, she will think I just buying more stuff for my ride, then she will walk outside and I'll have the truck tore apart. SURPRISE! 😁


Planning the same thing with my wife’s Honda Pilot. It already has nice tweet pods in the A pillars. Plenty of room on the dash for a nice midrange too. 😁


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Already have Morel Hybrids just sitting in the garage with no home. I have a couple Focal amps that are 1 channel shy of what's needed. I also happen to need a new DSP since I sold my TWK88. A new Helix P6 would fit the bill nicely.
> 
> She also wondered why I bought so much wire for my build.





saltyone said:


> Planning the same thing with my wife’s Honda Pilot. It already has nice tweet pods in the A pillars. Plenty of room on the dash for a nice midrange too. 😁


Pretty much where I am heading - she's looking at small to midsize SUVs (Audi Q5, Volvo XC40, Porche Macan, etc). So I'm looking at either Morel Carbon Pro/Utopia front stage, GB/Ultimo single 12 and probably a P Six Ultimate and P One mk2. Full OEM stealth install ideally. It will turn into our road trip/commuter vehicle so I want something that is just as satisfying to listen to.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

I’ve heard probably 90% of what’s considered high end speakers…including Accuton. I own Utopias…they just check all the boxes I need checked.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

UNBROKEN said:


> I’ve heard probably 90% of what’s considered high end speakers…including Accuton. I own Utopias…they just check all the boxes I need checked.


I think I'll be joining you in that regard. The Accutons are superb but I can't justify paying double over Utopias. There isn't enough audible difference to my ears.

Only front stage drivers I still want to hear are an 8WM and a Dyna E430.


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## Nemesis87 (6 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> I think I'll be joining you in that regard. The Accutons are superb but I can't justify paying double over Utopias. There isn't enough audible difference to my ears.
> 
> Only front stage drivers I still want to hear are an 8WM and a Dyna E430.


Sure Rick…

…but have you heard Purifi? Or Thesis SAX? Or…

hahaha


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Welp - it's done. Utopia 8WM, 3.5WM and TBM are on the way. Couple of weeks until everything is swapped over.

Yeah yeah yeah.....I know....."yOu jUST fINIsHeD yOUr mORel bUiLd"....if you know me by now, I'm curious to a fault. I'm not searching for upgrades, I'm searching for different experiences.

At this point though, I'm bouncing off the ceiling.

Next stop IB kicks and probably trialing some Morel Ultimo Ti's subs for sh!ts and giggles this winter.

Also ordered some Resonix Fiber Mat and CLD for both my headliner and front wheel wells.


----------



## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

You are the man!!! 😂


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

Once you try the Ultimos then decide to buy Illusion C12XL, let me know and I may buy the Morels off you. ￼


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Once you try the Ultimos then decide to buy Illusion C12XL, let me know and I may buy the Morels off you. ￼


Both the 12XLs (Illusion and Raven) are no longer in production so I will probably never get a new pair of those. Something with the manufacturer that handles those for ORCA has been having issues, so either they are no longer in production or on hold until they source it somewhere else.

But the I'm curious to try the Morels, they seem to have that invisible, seamless bass that seem pretty unique (maybe besides some of the Adire Brahamas). I like trying things that aren't too well documented on the forum. Also helps they are some sexy looking subs.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

I better order a second Raven then.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> I better order a second Raven then.


Good luck - I think MTI might have a few left. Not sure how many people remember Nick buying about 60 subs from Illusion a few months back. I know he cleaned them out of the few C12XLs they had left. Plus about 50 of their shallow subs.


----------



## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

That's a bummer, I was going to try and use a C12 shallow in my truck. The Morel Ultimos were my second choice, Ravens had better low end on paper so I went that route over the Morels.


----------



## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> I better order a second Raven then.


I know mti has a few in stock but I’ve been told there’s none left to order from raven.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> That's a bummer, I was going to try and use a C12 shallow in my truck. The Morel Ultimos were my second choice, Ravens had better low end on paper so I went that route over the Morels.


I do think the stock for the shallow 12s is much higher than the XLs but I still wouldn't wait too long. I know Nick def still has plenty of shallows. Yeah the Morels are odd to model tbh but I've yet to hear them but the Raven is a beautiful driver.


----------



## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

I used a 12” Morel Ultimo back in 2014ish…replaced it with a C12XL and haven’t used anything else since then. I’d like to try a pair of Raven 12XL’s but them being so hard to find right now makes it easier to not dwell on it.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

UNBROKEN said:


> I used a 12” Morel Ultimo back in 2014ish…replaced it with a C12XL and haven’t used anything else since then. I’d like to try a pair of Raven 12XL’s but them being so hard to find right now makes it easier to not dwell on it.


I talked with Nick for a while about GB vs C12XL at our meet up because I was always super curious to get an Illusion - he admitted the C12XL and GB12 were essentially brothers in what they were capable of. Illusion slightly drier, GB digs deeper on less air - he said to save my money. Only thing that ever pushed me away from Ravens were the SVC and seemingly need quite a bit of air but offers the same superb SQ you get from the C12XL/GB12.


----------



## teh_squirrel (Jan 16, 2020)

I thought the GB was pretty good. I've been shedding most of my audiofrog stuff, but I agree that the gb12 is a really great option. I had been eyeing the WS8.100 you are running, but I may hold off for the SI 8"...


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

teh_squirrel said:


> I thought the GB was pretty good. I've been shedding most of my audiofrog stuff, but I agree that the gb12 is a really great option. I had been eyeing the WS8.100 you are running, but I may hold off for the SI 8"...


We should meet up soon for a fresh listen. I was running a 20hz subsonic and a pretty crude tune on them at the meet, I think sound a lot more natural and full now.

as for the 8s, happy to throw you a Mainer discount. Shoot me a PM if want chat further.


----------



## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

RickWilson said:


> Welp - it's done. Utopia 8WM, 3.5WM and TBM are on the way. Couple of weeks until everything is swapped over.
> 
> Yeah yeah yeah.....I know....."yOu jUST fINIsHeD yOUr mORel bUiLd"....if you know me by now, I'm curious to a fault. I'm not searching for upgrades, I'm searching for different experiences.
> 
> ...


Now you need IB subs or better yet, BLOW THROUGH!!!!!


----------



## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

slowride said:


> Now you need IB subs or better yet, BLOW THROUGH!!!!!


lol Company Vehicle right? 🤷‍♂️ How that hole got there.


----------



## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

UNBROKEN said:


> I used a 12” Morel Ultimo back in 2014ish…replaced it with a C12XL and haven’t used anything else since then. I’d like to try a pair of Raven 12XL’s but them being so hard to find right now makes it easier to not dwell on it.


Sorry to do this to you. I just bought 1 of the 5. There are 2 left for you to buy while you can.


----------



## StaudiA6 (Nov 13, 2021)

LOL! Was just about to ask how you feel the Morel MM3 sound quality after long-term listening because I am not thrilled with the CDM880's I have in my doors ...........too late the quest for car audio perfection has struck again! Great choice on the new 3 way setup. The Focal Utopia's seems to be to go to for getting top tier SQ out of the front stage. I am leaning toward going with full Morel 3 way similar to what you just sold accept a different 8" woofer.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

StaudiA6 said:


> LOL! Was just about to ask how you feel the Morel MM3 sound quality after long-term listening because I am not thrilled with the CDM880's I have in my doors ...........too late the quest for car audio perfection has struck again! Great choice on the new 3 way setup. The Focal Utopia's seems to be to go to for getting top tier SQ out of the front stage. I am leaning toward going with full Morel 3 way similar to what you just sold accept a different 8" woofer.


The Morel MM3 + Piccolo is really really fantastic, I had a couple of close friends who have heard my truck in a few different iterations really call out how well separated and natural everything sounded. You won’t be disappointed in the Morels. My MM3 is more than likely still available, haven’t heard back from the buyer in the past 12 hours.


----------



## StaudiA6 (Nov 13, 2021)

Appreciate the comments on the Morel overall performance. I am pretty sure I can get those MM3's to fit with minimal modifications. Will take them if buyer backs out. Send me a PM. Thanks Rick.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

StaudiA6 said:


> Appreciate the comments on the Morel overall performance. I am pretty sure I can get those MM3's to fit with minimal modifications. Will take them if buyer backs out. Send me a PM. Thanks Rick.


Pm sent.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So got about an hour today to swap out my mids as I have about 5 people interested in buying them and I was curious hear the first piece of my new Utopia set. TBM and 8WM should be here later this week or early the following.

So first thing - quick look at the MM3 and 3.5WM dimensionally. The MM3 is a beefy mid depth and basket wise but only about 5mm overall larger in diameter total.








Utopia 3.5WM left, Morel MM3 right









So on to the install. Nick/Skizer/Vanguard (I know Matt Kim actually made this set) dash pod made it really easy. First things first, got them removed. Shown here with the MM3s.









The opening in the dash pod supported the 3.5 perfectly well. I just drilled and tapped some new holes for the machine screws and then got a proper full gasket around the opening (I previously sectioned the gasket for the MM3 which introduced some occasional resonance).








Replicated this on the opposite side and got both the 3.5s dropped in and secured.








Couple of closer shots of the pod and speaker grille.















I take for granted how clean these turned out. They really integrate into the dash so well.








Lastly, I got everything dropped back in the truck and wired up.








Grille and pillar cover plates back on.









I only got about 3 minutes to measure to see if I needed to adjust any gains in my DSP or tame any big peaks of EQ. Surprisingly, from a gain perspective, they are a dead on match from MM3 - less than 0.5 db variance. I didn’t have time to do any EQ today but only a couple of very minor bumps to take care of but otherwise I am still able to use all the EQ from my MM3.

I am going to follow up with another post comparing the two later this week when I get more seat time but both are fantastic drivers. The Utopia is def a bit more my flavor - super snappy, dynamic and extraordinarily detailed.

More to come.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

The 3.5WM is a pretty special driver. Break them in a bit and you’re gonna hear things you likely didn’t before.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

UNBROKEN said:


> The 3.5WM is a pretty special driver. Break them in a bit and you’re gonna hear things you likely didn’t before.


Already noticed that in a couple of tracks, certainly made me grin. Also seem to be a bit more controlled when at very high volume.

They are very exciting to listen to and seem to pair really well with the Piccolo.


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## clange2485 (Dec 10, 2020)

Super jelly of the dash pods and being able to fit a larger mid. Matt/Nick & Vanguard as a whole did an incredible job of making them look like OEM pieces.

Would be awesome if someone with a 14-18 Sierra/Silverado could swing by and have them create a similar piece!!!! 😆


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Quick set of measurements this morning:

Comparing the 3.5WM to MM3 in my dash, firing at windshield, IB. 1/12 smoothing.



Not really surprising to see almost identical results from a response standpoint, MM3 is a bit stronger in the 500-1000 but nothing that EQ couldn't easily fix for the 3.5WM. It's funny how the can measure very,very similar but seem to present music is a very different way. The biggest immediate difference is the control at high volumes, the Utopias seem to get better and better the louder they go. Still need some more time in the seat but the 3.5WM is so exciting to listen to - the live drum solo from the live London Slipknot CD is just gnarly, it makes my eyes blink on of the snares and toms.








This is the quick tune I cleaned up this AM that I will use for the next few days until the rest of the 3 way arrives. Still has some humps but only 15-20 minutes this morning to get things a bit more in line.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

This is impressive stuff Rick. When your all said and done. You should literally make the pros and cons of every setup you’ve had. Price vs quality. Etc. 
Would be a great read. 
I would love to hear the utopias at some point in my life. Sometime in February or March I will be visiting nick and hopefully can hear one of his setups


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

I can’t imagine when you have the 3 way setup!! What do you have the focal mids xo at? Same as the morel? Is that REW ur using?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Sam b said:


> This is impressive stuff Rick. When your all said and done. You should literally make the pros and cons of every setup you’ve had. Price vs quality. Etc.
> Would be a great read.
> I would love to hear the utopias at some point in my life. Sometime in February or March I will be visiting nick and hopefully can hear one of his setups


Thanks man - I actually do plan to reconfigure the first couple of posts of this thread to be a table of contents post and a current build post so folks don't have to search nearly as much.

I also may do a separate thread with a synopsis of my all the different systems but I like the idea of keeping all the info in one thread.

Hopefully Nick still has a Utopia set up around when you do - I know him and Matt both are full Accuton at this point.



Dgan21 said:


> I can’t imagine when you have the 3 way setup!! What do you have the focal mids xo at? Same as the morel? Is the REW ur using?


Yeah Nick and I were chatting and he was expecting me to get this same impression of the tweeter than I have of the 3.5WM. Midbass difference he said would be mostly negligible until I get into IB or move my midbass.

Crossovers are the same as my Morels. Electrically they are crossed at 220 and 2800 but acoustically closer to 240 and 2500. I literally can't make the Utopia resonate or break up at any volume. The Utopia did need about 1 db of gain above the Morel but based on each driver's sensitivity (87 for Utopia, 88 for MM3) it made sense.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

@RickWilson is our new community R&D department. Next up, besides going full accuton is a shop for a side hustle. 😂


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

slowride said:


> @RickWilson is our new community R&D department. Next up, besides going full accuton is a shop for a side hustle. 😂


I’d be down for investing in a new shop.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Dunno what others experience has been but I bet I had a solid 50 hours on my Utopia stuff before I really felt they were broken in well. It just kept getting better over time.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

slowride said:


> @RickWilson is our new community R&D department. Next up, besides going full accuton is a shop for a side hustle. 😂





saltyone said:


> I’d be down for investing in a new shop.
> 
> View attachment 357574


Ironically, I’m meeting up with a local commerical a/v business that just opened up a 12 volt side of their business. Going to learn about the business and understand it a bit more. Still think this hobby should stay a hobby for now though. But as a side hustle, that could be fun. 


UNBROKEN said:


> Dunno what others experience has been but I bet I had a solid 50 hours on my Utopia stuff before I really felt they were broken in well. It just kept getting better over time.


Well this makes me even happier with the purchase.


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

slowride said:


> @RickWilson is our new community R&D department. Next up, besides going full accuton is a shop for a side hustle. 😂


🤣


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Updated Post #1 to serve as a table on contents (still need to add hyperlinks) and current build photo and narrative summary. Getting to 500+ posts is becoming a small novel for first time readers so I am hoping this helps with navigation.


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## M_Mark28 (Mar 11, 2021)

You doing pods or new pillar build for the focal tweets ?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

M_Mark28 said:


> You doing pods or new pillar build for the focal tweets ?


Pods in the short term, pillars / sails long term. If my pillars don’t sell, I may peel them apart to modify the lower portion to house the TBMs.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

Hard to believe those pillars haven’t sold. So freaking nice! If I was you, I’d try to find a way to modify them for the TBMs. That’s just me…I’d hate to part with those beauties.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

saltyone said:


> Hard to believe those pillars haven’t sold. So freaking nice! If I was you, I’d try to find a way to modify them for the TBMs. That’s just me…I’d hate to part with those beauties.


And you see I’d rather leave the mids in the dash. Build some nice a-pillars worthy of the rest of this killer system/install for the tweeters!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

saltyone said:


> Hard to believe those pillars haven’t sold. So freaking nice! If I was you, I’d try to find a way to modify them for the TBMs. That’s just me…I’d hate to part with those beauties.





DaveG said:


> And you see I’d rather leave the mids in the dash. Build some nice a-pillars worthy of the rest of this killer system/install for the tweeters!


I think he was recommending just fitting the tweeters in the pillars which is my objective too. The mids aren’t leaving the dash ever at this point.


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## teh_squirrel (Jan 16, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> I think he was recommending just fitting the tweeters in the pillars which is my objective too. The mids aren’t leaving the dash ever at this point.


That's awesome! I can't wait to get some 3.5WM up in my dash  

I'll put in another vote towards modifying the pillars for the tweets.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

teh_squirrel said:


> That's awesome! I can't wait to get some 3.5WM up in my dash
> 
> I'll put in another vote towards modifying the pillars for the tweets.


After another day of listening to them - they are insanely good. The detail and dynamics are insane.

im spit balling ideas with Nick but I’m pretty sure I’m going peel the vinyl off one of the pillars tomorrow to see what we can do.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Updated truck wiring diagram, trying to make this one a bit nicer for comps and such.








Full size link:


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Starting to mess around with photoshop mock ups while Nick and I discuss what's viable. Potentially going to reshape my MTI pillars or might start fresh with some OEM ones.

Excuse my very crude photoshop skills and not entirely sure my scaling is correct with the TBMs yet

Driver's side
















Passenger side


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Now it’s time to require everything so each 5/30 runs one side of the system. lol
Get ALL the separations. lol


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

UNBROKEN said:


> Now it’s time to require everything so each 5/30 runs one side of the system. lol
> Get ALL the separations. lol


Lol the only reason I didn't do this originally was lack of individual channel gains on the Mosconi Pros - I would end up with my 3.5s and 8s on the high power channels of each amp which are going to have a fair amount of difference in gain and power requirements. I do suppose I can still regulate this in the DSP individual channel gains. I am just trying to keep mids and tweets on direct dsp. My midbass is still on DDSP for my BLAMs (cause 2 ohm) but I know I will need more than likely disable that for my 8WMs and give them some gain. 

I don't think the Pro's have any issues with crosstalk from what Nick has said.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Rick, very interested to hear your opinions on the comparison of the TBM's to the Piccolo's - two great Tweeters with VERY different characteristics, one is warm and the other clear and crisp...


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

RickWilson said:


> Starting to mess around with photoshop mock ups while Nick and I discuss what's viable. Potentially going to reshape my MTI pillars or might start fresh with some OEM ones.
> 
> Excuse my very crude photoshop skills and not entirely sure my scaling is correct with the TBMs yet
> 
> ...


Can’t believe you shopped the driver’s side in upside down. 










Seriously though, that would look awesome!


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> Lol the only reason I didn't do this originally was lack of individual channel gains on the Mosconi Pros - I would end up with my 3.5s and 8s on the high power channels of each amp which are going to have a fair amount of difference in gain and power requirements. I do suppose I can still regulate this in the DSP individual channel gains. I am just trying to keep mids and tweets on direct dsp. My midbass is still on DDSP for my BLAMs (cause 2 ohm) but I know I will need more than likely disable that for my 8WMs and give them some gain.
> 
> I don't think the Pro's have any issues with crosstalk from what Nick has said.
> [/QUOTE
> So I have the same amp and always had them on direct dsp, what’s the difference with it on and off?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

MythosDreamLab said:


> Rick, very interested to hear your opinions on the comparison of the TBM's to the Piccolo's - two great Tweeters with VERY different characteristics, one is warm and the other clear and crisp...


I am curious to hear the differences as well. But having heard TBMs, Accuton Ceramics, Piccolos, ML1s, GBs, etc. I can't really support calling one warm or one clear. It comes way more down to tuning than it does the driver itself, in my opinion. I find the more unique characteristics to be dynamics, realism/accuracy (this is still a tuning thing mostly) and their capabilities when getting pushed to loud, loud levels.

Take the MM3 and 3.5WM for instance - at normal volumes, it is pretty hard discern the differences in the drivers, at all. Turn my system north of 90-95 db and the 3.5WM begins to pull away by a large margin in its control and dynamics. I listen very loud - so that was a huge silver lining with the Utopia but anyone who listens at a reasonable level would be equally happy with either.

Not saying that each driver doesn't have its own timbre/sound signature per se, because they certainly do, but I think it's a little misleading using adjectives like laid-back, warm and harsh when 95% of those words are reliant on your tune and your own ears. I've had my Piccolos scream at my ears plenty of times because I left a peak unchecked in my tune.



saltyone said:


> Can’t believe you shopped the driver’s side in upside down.
> 
> View attachment 357885
> 
> ...


Blasphemy!


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

So I have the same amp and always had them on direct dsp, what’s the difference with it on and off?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Direct DSP (bypass all the preamplifier circuitry but the differential input interface) - from the Mosconi site.

Essentially lowers the noise floor/increases signal to noise ratio and a fixed gain setting. Cleaner output essentially - most relevant for tweeters and mids - not nearly as important for midbass/subs.


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> Direct DSP (bypass all the preamplifier circuitry but the differential input interface) - from the Mosconi site.
> 
> Essentially lowers the noise floor/increases signal to noise ratio and a fixed gain setting. Cleaner output essentially - most relevant for tweeters and mids - not nearly as important for midbass/subs.


So would I gain more output if I had it off for my sub and sub And setting my gains?


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## teh_squirrel (Jan 16, 2020)

The positioning for the tweeters is interesting. I think if you go a little bit wider on the driver's side that you can increase your stage by a discernible amount. This makes your design a little more challenging and you also have to consider reflections in the different locations. To refit the pillars you have I think what you drew up is going to be the most simple. One of the great things about your current pillar is that it blends well and isn't super prominent, but still looks sweet. The best thing to me was the weight of it, it just feels solid.

I like the diagram and imagine the color scheme overlaid onto a diagram of the truck (like for shows and stuff, you know  )

I think certain speakers and comparisons lend themselves to words like grainy, smooth, detailed, harsh. It obviously doesn't capture all of the differences but I think of the sound sort of like a digital image and for me the GB10's are more sharp (like a monitor), but still detailed, while my morels (like the $50 morel tweeters) were smooth but had less resolution like an old tv that blurs the image some. The piccolos (yours) reminded me of the cheap morels I had in the quality of smoothness but were much more detailed and higher resolution (1080p? 720p?). I've read that beryllium is more better (more clarity) at higher volumes so I'll be interested to see what you say (and hear  ) the difference. Things like the source, and tuning can make a big difference but the drivers make a huge difference, too.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Dgan21 said:


> So would I gain more output if I had it off for my sub and sub And setting my gains?


In theory, yes, pending you raise your gain pass the fixed voltage set by the DDSP mode. Ironically my GB12s have too much gain in DDSP mode on my 5/30s. One 5/30 is at the minimum gain, the other is voltage matched to the other one (which is like 1% gain, I barely turned the knob). And my Helix gains for the subs are still at -8 db.



teh_squirrel said:


> The positioning for the tweeters is interesting. I think if you go a little bit wider on the driver's side that you can increase your stage by a discernible amount. This makes your design a little more challenging and you also have to consider reflections in the different locations. To refit the pillars you have I think what you drew up is going to be the most simple. One of the great things about your current pillar is that it blends well and isn't super prominent, but still looks sweet. The best thing to me was the weight of it, it just feels solid.
> 
> I like the diagram and imagine the color scheme overlaid onto a diagram of the truck (like for shows and stuff, you know  )


Yeah the sails would be ideal but in the 2019+'s it becomes tough to get a full size tweeter in there without it feeling bulbous. Truthfully I am happy with my stage width in the pods now (which presents, to my ears, a full foot wider than my old pillars/what you heard at the meet) so even in this configuration, I'd gain another 6 inches of physical width which should help out quite a bit.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

teh_squirrel said:


> I think certain speakers and comparisons lend themselves to words like grainy, smooth, detailed, harsh. It obviously doesn't capture all of the differences but I think of the sound sort of like a digital image and for me the GB10's are more sharp (like a monitor), but still detailed, while my morels (like the $50 morel tweeters) were smooth but had less resolution like an old tv that blurs the image some. The piccolos (yours) reminded me of the cheap morels I had in the quality of smoothness but were much more detailed and higher resolution (1080p? 720p?). I've read that beryllium is more better (more clarity) at higher volumes so I'll be interested to see what you say (and hear  ) the difference. Things like the source, and tuning can make a big difference but the drivers make a huge difference, too.


I like the term resolution a lot actually too.

If the 3.5s are any indication of what the TBMs are capable of in detail retrieval aka resolution, I am god damn excited. With that said - the Piccolo seems to keep up more than adequately with the Utopia.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So after some conversations and gaming with Nick last night - we talked about an approach to my pillars a few times over. I was hoping to figure out a way to cut my MTI pillars (or use new OEM ones) and mount/glue some acrylic rings for the TBMs and hopefully handle the work remotely but the more we talked, the more we realized this was a recipe for disappointment.

So he convinced me to come out to NY for a weekend in January and we will tackle some pillars together in his shop and he could show me the ropes of fiberglass, filler and wrapping (in preparation for my kicks). So I am going to bring my MTI and OEM pillars and some extra OEM dash pods and document the build while hopefully getting my hands dirty in the process.

We are targeting something similar to the pillars he did for a gorgeous GT3 he did a couple years back.
















More from a shape and bottom profile stand point. We will have a lot more real estate to work with as we only are trying to fit an on axis TBM in the pillar, not the 3.5 shown here. We are going to create a removable profile/plate that could accommodate the Accuton tweeter in the future (you know, just in case ) and the current TBM.

God damn excited.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

So jealous! I may just show up with my a-pillars and TBMs in hand and crash the party! I can just hear the stewardess now…•Sir, what are those long plastic things and why is that little black box with a French flag handcuffed to your arm?”

#MeToo bitches


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

Hey Rick, so I was looking at ur wiring diagram and notice that ur using channel 3/4 on ur mids and I’m using channel 1/2 on the same amp. Is using 3/4 better since it’s more wattage?


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

Need some advice on my amp setup, definitely would appreciate it. 
Amplifiers: mosconi 4/30, mosconi 5/30, mosconi 4/10
Front stage: Audison thesis 3way
Rear fill: audiofrog gs62
Sub: jl audio 10”w7


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Dgan21 said:


> Need some advice on my amp setup, definitely would appreciate it.
> Amplifiers: mosconi 4/30, mosconi 5/30, mosconi 4/10
> Front stage: Audison thesis 3way
> Rear fill: audiofrog gs62
> Sub: jl audio 10”w7


I’ll try… don’t need the 4/10. Mids and tweeters on the 4/30. Gs62 channels 1/2, Thesis midbass channels 3/4, and w7 channel 5 on the 5/30. Should sound killer!


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

DaveG said:


> I’ll try… don’t need the 4/10. Mids and tweeters on the 4/30. Gs62 channels 1/2, Thesis midbass channels 3/4, and w7 channel 5 on the 5/30. Should sound killer!


Thank you, so the mids max wattage is 110, you don’t think the 4/30 is to much power?


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Dgan21 said:


> Thank you, so the mids max wattage is 110, you don’t think the 4/30 is to much power?


Nope it’ll never draw that. Probably never see but 30-35 watts. The class a bias in the 4/30 is what you’re after with your mids and tweeters. It’ll be incredible!


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

And this whole time I have the mids on 1/2 on the 5/30 and tweeters and mid bass on the 4/30 🤦🏿‍♂️


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Dgan21 said:


> And this whole time I have the mids on 1/2 on the 5/30 and tweeters and mid bass on the 4/30 🤦🏿‍♂️


Really you’re in for a pleasant surprise!


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

DaveG said:


> Really you’re in for a pleasant surprise!


If it wasn’t 33 degrees outside I would be out there as we speak 😂


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

DaveG said:


> I’ll try… don’t need the 4/10. Mids and tweeters on the 4/30. Gs62 channels 1/2, Thesis midbass channels 3/4, and w7 channel 5 on the 5/30. Should sound killer!


@Dgan21 exactly this. Simple, clean and efficient. Unless you listen at absurdly loud levels, this is the play. 

Based on how little gain I have on my GB12s, I could have easily done 4/30 + 5/30 for my build and been just as happy.


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

Thanks guys, will give it a go tomorrow after work


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Came back to the office to find a nice little holiday care package from Vanguard Auto.

Pair of Utopia 8WMs (Nick is still waiting on the TBMs/I'm still waiting for the respective Valicar pods for them too.)

Resonix Items:
CLD (Intended for a couple places on my front doors and wheel wells)
Butyl Rope
Fiber Mat 45 x 4 (Intended for headliner/front wheel wells)
FIber Mat 25 x 2 (Intended for shallow sections of headliner)


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Boo…you get to play this week and I don’t.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

RickWilson said:


> Came back to the office to find a nice little holiday care package from Vanguard Auto.
> 
> Pair of Utopia 8WMs (Nick is still waiting on the TBMs/I'm still waiting for the respective Valicar pods for them too.)
> 
> ...


Looks good under the tree! 😊


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

UNBROKEN said:


> Boo…you get to play this week and I don’t.


Hopefully! - not exactly how far I'll get with the Fiber Mat but definitely getting the 8s in the doors at minimum. Hopefully get the headliner done as well. Front wheel wells - I need to open them up more to see what is possible / look for venting location for kicks.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

A little Utopia 8WM Speaker porn...








































My two favorite pics of them (below):


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

RickWilson said:


> A little Utopia 8WM Speaker porn...
> View attachment 358278
> 
> View attachment 358279
> ...


So ****ing Sexy! 😍


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

Sweet, wonder if I can get those to fit in my door?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Dgan21 said:


> Sweet, wonder if I can get those to fit in my door?


Not sure what truck you have, I forget, but if you can fit a 6x9, you can fit an 8. Also - don't you have Thesis Sax in your doors? I don't think you'd be seeing an appreciable difference between those and this, at least I don't think it would justify the expense and effort of the swap. But that's up to you.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

RickWilson said:


> Not sure what truck you have, I forget, but if you can fit a 6x9, you can fit an 8. Also - don't you have Thesis Sax in your doors? I don't think you'd be seeing an appreciable difference between those and this, at least I don't think it would justify the expense and effort of the swap. But that's up to you.


I disagree. The WM8 will beat up that Thesis 6.5! Not even close. Expense is something else!


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> Not sure what truck you have, I forget, but if you can fit a 6x9, you can fit an 8. Also - don't you have Thesis Sax in your doors? I don't think you'd be seeing an appreciable difference between those and this, at least I don't think it would justify the expense and effort of the swap. But that's up to you.


Not a truck but a 2014 Lexus gs350 and yes I do have the sax currently. Factory speakers where 6x9


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

I went to meet with a local high end residential A/V business (with a very new 12V side) that is smaller but had a great reputation. I wanted to poke into understanding the A/V side of the industry and learn a bit more about his business and more specifically, his 12V side.

Long story short, I was able to listen to his high end 7.2.4 home theater set up and then more impressively were his pair of Paradigm Persona 9Hs in a two channel set up. It was awesome to finally listen to a proper 2 ch set up.

Then I took him into my truck for about 45 minutes and got these unsolicited texts a few hours later haha.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Got a couple of hours during the snowstorm today to swap out my WS8.100s for the 8WMs. 

Brothers from another (french) mother:
















Relatively straight forward and happy I had picked myself up a pair of the 8" Sound Good Stereo HPDE speaker adapters. The ones for my BLAMs would have needed quite a bit of router work because the profile of the Utopia basket gets much wider, much quicker.
















Mounted and CCF rings attached.
















Passenger door









Couple quick measurements that almost pointless until the driver breaks in a bit more but wanted to show my results from measuring both drivers on equal power with no eq.

Right MB - arguably identical, a touch more output below 70 hz.
Left MB - this was more interesting, esp from 60-90 hz and in the 180 hz dip. I'm anxious to do a fresh tune once I get my TBMs









So this an odd graph to show but I found the results to a minor shock. I am using all of the eq and gain settings from my 2 ohm BLAMs for the 4 ohm 8WMs currently and output wise, nearly identical. Nick mentioned this will change a bit over time as the suspension loosens up and I will more than likely need to add some gain. But this made me confident (and confirmed what Nick said last week) that I won't need to bridge these to get the output I am looking for, especially once I go IB.









Going to keep thoughts on how they sound/compare for later in the week once I get 30-40 hours on them.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

Man, those sure are nice. For some reason, those BLAMS look bigger than the Focals.


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

That left and right response looks as bad as mine. I wonder how much the door panel hurts the response?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

audionow said:


> That left and right response looks as bad as mine. I wonder how much the door panel hurts the response?


The inner door card or the location in general.

But yeah, these trucks have terrible mid bass locations and cabin design. They sum well enough but kick panels can’t come fast enough.

interestingly enough. The double cab version has far better upper midbass because of the change in cabin size.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> The inner door card or the location in general.
> 
> But yeah, these trucks have terrible mid bass locations and cabin design. They sum well enough but kick panels can’t come fast enough.
> 
> interestingly enough. The double cab version has far better upper midbass because of the change in cabin size.


So you need to add two more to the rear doors? lol


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

Yes, the door card. When I measured mine close up the response left to right was pretty close to the same. With my smaller cab the funky dip is higher up.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

audionow said:


> Yes, the door card. When I measured mine close up the response left to right was pretty close to the same. With my smaller cab the funky dip is higher up.


I have some extra 1” pvc that I may try stacking to get the driver much closer to the grille of the door card and see if it has any effect on response. I know opening my passenger door adds like 20 hz low end to my drivers side midbass.

i know ultimately I just need to move the drivers to a better kick location to solve these issues.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

We need new grills for our door panels to vent the air pressure


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Couple of initial impressions of the 8WMs. They certainly follow the trend of the 3.5s where they are composed, always, no matter the listening level. Extremely tight, more full in the lower midbass (especially toms, kicks and bottom end of snares) and continue to open up day by day. 

With that said, the differences between this and my BLAMs are very subtle and for half the price, the BLAMs are still an excellent option. 

Nick and I have been playing around with some measurements from possibly using my rear doors to supplement some of my driver's door cancellations. Passenger side doesn't really need any help but I might be able to gain some decent help on driver's. I am going to try a few things, including some 2nd order all passes, to see if we can get something that is cohesive up front. He's only really had success with it in one vehicle but we are going to give it a try.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Rick. Your bad for me. Every time I read a post of yours. It’s gets me more in trouble. Makes me wanna go the next level constantly.


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## Mike_Saw_75 (8 mo ago)

Sam b said:


> Rick. Your bad for me. Every time I read a post of yours. It’s gets me more in trouble. Makes me wanna go the next level constantly.


I could not agree with you more on that statement! But is it a BAD thing.....probably not.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Mike_Saw_75 said:


> I could not agree with you more on that statement! But is it a BAD thing.....probably not.


In his own way, Rick is helping stimulate the US economy...! By inspiring people to upgrade and spend more, he is helping the economy...!


We should be thanking him...


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Ooo. I agree w that. This is my favorite log to read


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Sam b said:


> Rick. Your bad for me. Every time I read a post of yours. It’s gets me more in trouble. Makes me wanna go the next level constantly.


Now you know how I feel when I read UNBROKEN's build log haha


MythosDreamLab said:


> In his own way, Rick is helping stimulate the US economy...! By inspiring people to upgrade and spend more, he is helping the economy...!
> We should be thanking him...


Haha trying to do my part but medical and an engagement ring have slowed (rightfully) any extreme changes for the future......for now....


Sam b said:


> Ooo. I agree w that. This is my favorite log to read


Comments like this make it worth the time to make the build log as detailed as I can. Thanks!


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## teh_squirrel (Jan 16, 2020)

When I was looking at my midbass cancellations I stumbled on this thread here: Midbass cancellation, options? Angle upwards?, which I thought was pretty good. I think if the rear doors worked that would be ideal but based on positioning it seems unlikely to solve both.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

teh_squirrel said:


> When I was looking at my midbass cancellations I stumbled on this thread here: Midbass cancellation, options? Angle upwards?, which I thought was pretty good. I think if the rear doors worked that would be ideal but based on positioning it seems unlikely to solve both.


Totally agreed. Using my rears to supplement is still only a bridge until I get time to tackle kicks for 8s.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Finally set up a proper space at my work warehouse to store my gear and hand/car audio tools instead of working off rolling carts.

















Most of the “current” build









I also got word that my TBMs shipped but the pods are only projected to be delivered January 3rd even though I ordered them about 2 weeks ago. Can’t wait for the final piece of the Utopia set.


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

Those shelves filled up quickly.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Slapped together a quick tune between last night and some time at lunch today. I had been using my modded version of my Morel/BLAM tune which worked decently well but I wanted to EQ from raw measurements for the 8WM, 3.5 and I haven't measured my subs since I put them in/broken them in. Still did things pretty rough and until I get my TBMs on hand and the 8s continue to break in.

This is certainly the most full my front stage has sounded, especially lower mid bass (60-80hz). Not sure if it's the new 8s, the 12db slopes I used my 2500 Hz crossover (thanks! @Picassotheimpaler) or just slowly getting a little better at tuning and recognizing things with my ears. I do have a little more energy than normal in the 80-160 range but so far, I'm digging it. Snare drums and upper toms are making my eyes blink. 

Also far less sub bass pull towards the rear - I'm getting a good 5-10 hz lower with my 8WMs in this tune which I think is allowing for a better blend from sub to midbass and certainly is feeling a bit more seamless, it's not perfect but definitely a small step forward. I really haven't a track pull backwards, short of Put On by Young Jeezy or Solar Sailor from TRON which have so much low end, it's really tough to avoid hearing 1500 watts of subs 40 inches behind you lol. 

The raw sub measurement certainly reflects the cabin gain I get from 30-65 hz and I think the deeper I push my 8s towards that 65hz threshold, the less prone I will be to having my subs pull your ears backwards. It's why I'm hopeful with IB kicks to cross down in the 50s with the 8WMs and allow the subs to really sound invisible.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

I think I’ll be disappointed if I can’t get those 8’s down into the 50’s. Playing lower and getting rid of the suck out caused by the doors is the reason I jumped off that IB cliff.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

UNBROKEN said:


> I think I’ll be disappointed if I can’t get those 8’s down into the 50’s. Playing lower and getting rid of the suck out caused by the doors is the reason I jumped off that IB cliff.


Exactly! They should in theory get down down to the 30s but xmax will prevent having anything useful down there but 50s should be a breeze in IB for them.

Driver's side is basically null below 70 and full cancelled @ 180, Passenger is good 55 to 190 and then sucks out hard at 200.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Yes @Sam b, a few lines got deleted per my request. Didn’t need my build log to be either a billboard for someone else to advertise or a discussion about someone else very unrelated build. Just wanted to keep things on topic.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Ok. Gotcha. I had a notification about my favorite log and there wasn’t anything new. That’s all. 
Rick. Can’t wait to see what you do w kicks. You can very obviously do the kicks yourself. Glass work is not near as hard as what people think it is. I absolutely enjoy doing it. But definitely wanna use high end products. Rage gold and evercoat kitty hair as well as US composites. All set


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

You get the focal m tweeters?


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

RickWilson said:


> Yes @Sam b, a few lines got deleted per my request. Didn’t need my build log to be either a billboard for someone else to advertise or a discussion about someone else very unrelated build. Just wanted to keep things on topic.


i was thinking the same thing. your build is not the place


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Sam b said:


> Ok. Gotcha. I had a notification about my favorite log and there wasn’t anything new. That’s all.
> Rick. Can’t wait to see what you do w kicks. You can very obviously do the kicks yourself. Glass work is not near as hard as what people think it is. I absolutely enjoy doing it. But definitely wanna use high end products. Rage gold and evercoat kitty hair as well as US composites. All set


For sure! I’m excited to tackle them. I’m going to learn glass first hand with Nick next month when we tag team some pillars for the TBMs. Once I get home from that, I’ll be heading to tackle the kicks. 



Dgan21 said:


> You get the focal m tweeters?


Nick said Orca 2 day shipped them to him earlier this week so I’m guessing I’ll see them first thing next week. I won’t get the new Valicar pods until Jan 3rd according to the tracking page so as long they show up before then, I’ll be good. Should be a 15 min swap once I get both pieces.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

some happy news this morning. Hopefully should have these and the TBMs installed mid week


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Rick. When you make your kicks. Will you install those black hole tiles on yours. 
I think your going IB, so I’m in sure. 
But my question is. For a small mid range sealed enclosure. Would those black hole tiles be beneficial. I already bought 72 of them from nick


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Sam b said:


> Rick. When you make your kicks. Will you install those black hole tiles on yours.
> I think your going IB, so I’m in sure.
> But my question is. For a small mid range sealed enclosure. Would those black hole tiles be beneficial. I already bought 72 of them from nick


I’ll answer that with what Nick Wingate told me when I asked the same thing…yes. I’ll be lining my IB kicks with them myself. If you’re doing a small sealed enclosure just be cognizant of the space they’ll offset in the enclosure. For IB it doesn’t matter.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Yea. Def a small enclosure. Sealed too. It’s only for GB40 mids. Hoping will be ok


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays folks. Hopefully some something shiny and musical landed underneath your trees.


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

HAPPY HOLIDAY!!! Only thing I want for Xmas is a good tune 😂


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## cowdog360 (Jan 17, 2021)

Dgan21 said:


> HAPPY HOLIDAY!!! Only thing I want for Xmas is a good tune 😂


🎵 All I want for Christmas is a two seat tune, a 2 seat tune..🎵


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Finally got some time to take apart my front doors again to get the Resonix Fibermat 45 installed and add some additional CLD over some areas of the door card. This is probably the last time I’ll take apart my doors until I work on my kick panels.

I started off by adding about 4 sheets of CLD per front door card.

















Then added some butyl rope over some of the plastic welds that will inevitably fall apart and rattle over time.









Then I used the OEM fiber mat to use a template to trace for the much thicker Resonix mat.









Then I cut it out and test fit the piece in the door card with some tape so I could mount it to the door and see if I had any problem areas.









Test fit, these doors would probably be best suited for the Fiber Mat 25 product as it does push the card in a few places that I will eventually trim but nothing of concern for right now.









From here, I got the mat adhered and installed.









Full door all treated










So far, def notice a good bit of difference in road noise, no longer hear the studs rolling on the asphalt. Anxious to get the headliner, rear doors and front wheel wells done.

TBMs arrive tomorrow


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

I think you've been watching to many ps sounds videos, In America we call them door trim panels. 
Keep up the good work. More sound proofing never hurts.


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## you asked (1 mo ago)

audionow said:


> I think you've been watching to many ps sounds videos, In America we call them door trim panels.
> Keep up the good work. More sound proofing never hurts.


plenty call them door cards.


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

Awesome stuff Rick. What is this fiber mat? I ended getting those black hole tiles you recommended


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Sam b said:


> Awesome stuff Rick. What is this fiber mat? I ended getting those black hole tiles you recommended


See post 610 lol. But it’s the Resonix Fiber Mat 45.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

I noticed a nice difference when I wrapped my whole car in Thinsulate. Nicks stuff didn’t exist back then…but the 3M 400L and 600L work very well also.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So today (and most of this week) has been dead quiet at work so I was able to sneak away to knock one major project and couple of small house keeping items.

The major project was to sound great my roof and headliner which I will cover in the next post.

Couple of small projects - added two full sheets of Resonix CLD to the driver’s and passenger's foot wells. Just something I’ve been meaning to do for weeks and placed them out of the way for future kicks.









Then I reconfigured my fuse block under the hood as I have never cared for my original set up as it is a big pain to swap fuses out.

This was the previous set up:









This is the new set up. Much easier to service the fuse.









And still retains easy access to disconnect the negative terminal


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## cowdog360 (Jan 17, 2021)

It's dead quiet at work so you're deadening and quieting the truck?


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## Mike_Saw_75 (8 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> Test fit, these doors would probably be best suited for the Fiber Mat 25 product as it does push the card in a few places that I will eventually trim but nothing of concern for right now.


I just ordered four sheets of the fiber mat 25 and will probably use the two sheets of the 45 I already have for either the headliner or back wall. 
Looking forward to seeing the install for the headliner.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So on to the head liner - it was a tedious project but certainly rewards a meticulous, measure twice, cut once approach.

So first things first - I used this video to guide me through the removal of the headliner:






The video is easy to follow and you just follow it in reverse to put everything back together.

Took me about 45 min to get it broken free and dropped down.









It’s frankly embarrassing to have a $70,000 truck essentially have a small piece of tissue paper (like 12 x 24 x 1/4 inch fiber mat) act as the “sound treatment” for the roof. There is no double chamber anything and when you knock it sounds a tin can.

























So I started with stuffing both the rear and front support beams with scraps of the Fiber Mat 45 I had left over from the front doors.

















Then I spread out about a dozen sheets worth of Resonix CLD across the entire roof to about 50% coverage. Wild the difference you get in the knock test, sounds like you are knocking on granite now.









Then moved on to the Fiber Mat 45 and 25.
















I’d say I am probably close to 95% coverage on my headliner. I used one full sheet of each thickness and had about a 6” strip of 25 left over that I used to treat my upper B and C pillars.

One silver lining of the OEM headliner are there blue foam stand offs that give you a good reference what thickness material you can fit in each respective area. You want to keep the fiber mat as uncompressed as possible to gain the maximum efficacy of the product.









Only got 20 minutes in the vehicle but was able to get on the highway for 5-6 miles of that and man is this worth every penny. An extremely noticeable difference in road noise and overall cabin noise. Makes my truck feels much more premium during driving. Also a nice improvement in how my subs sound, a bit tighter and cleaner. 

Cannot wait to do the rear doors and some of the lower B and C pillar areas. As well the as front wheel wells.

Can’t recommend this upgrade enough.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

thanks. just placed an order for two sheets. i've been meaning to get to the headliner and this is a worthy upgrade. now to find the time!


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

RickWilson said:


> It’s frankly embarrassing to have a $70,000 truck essentially have a small piece of tissue paper (like 12 x 24 x 1/4 inch fiber mat) act as the “sound treatment” for the roof. There is no double chamber anything and when you knock it sounds a tin can.


Don’t feel bad. My similarly priced truck is the same. I removed the third brake light this evening to do my normal waterproofing (every truck I’ve owned has eventually starting leaking at the third brake light) and was able to see through to the area between the headliner and the roof. Nothing but air. There’s about 1/4 inch of “sound proofing” attached to the backside of the headliner…that’s it. I’ll be doing my sound deadening next month. Not looking forward to that part. Great job on everything!


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Quick update for the actual layout of the Fiber Mat in the headliner. Hopefully can help save someone some time.

The blue 25 areas should be pretty obvious once you drop the headliner. One is where the sunroof would be, one is for the recessed head clearance area above the rear seat and the last is around the sun visor anchor points which get pretty tight. Rest of the areas fit 45 comfortably, just leave 3-4 inches along the long edges for side curtain air bag clearances.


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## Old Skewl (May 30, 2011)

saltyone said:


> Don’t feel bad. My similarly priced truck is the same. I removed the third brake light this evening to do my normal waterproofing (every truck I’ve owned has eventually starting leaking at the third brake light) and was able to see through to the area between the headliner and the roof. Nothing but air. There’s about 1/4 inch of “sound proofing” attached to the backside of the headliner…that’s it. I’ll be doing my sound deadening next month. Not looking forward to that part. Great job on everything!


 Yeah these trucks leak both around the sharkfin antenna and the 3rd brakelight. Such poor designs. My truck was garage kept until 2020. Started getting water in my lap a few months ago. Replaced the sharkfin and still had issues. Finally siliconed it. Plan to replace the gasket around 3rd brakelight next. I bet that Fibermat would soak up water real nice. LOL! 

Nice job on the headliner. That is some flimsy resonant metal on the roof! I am mid install but would love to do this when finished.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Old Skewl said:


> Yeah these trucks leak both around the sharkfin antenna and the 3rd brakelight. Such poor designs. My truck was garage kept until 2020. Started getting water in my lap a few months ago. Replaced the sharkfin and still had issues. Finally siliconed it. Plan to replace the gasket around 3rd brakelight next. I bet that Fibermat would soak up water real nice. LOL!
> 
> Nice job on the headliner. That is some flimsy resonant metal on the roof! I am mid install but would love to do this when finished.


I actually added some butyl to both locations during the install but these trucks tend to have most their issues with the operable rear window, which thankfully I don't have in my truck. And if any water does come through, the Fibermat is hydrophobic.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

The illustrious third leg of my Utopia M front stage has finally arrived. They are gorgeous and surprisingly very heavy for small they are. 

But anyways, speaker porn while I go get these swapped into my truck.


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

Please tell me your going to SVR this year. I feel like I have been a part of this build now. I would love to see and hear this thing. You have been doing everything I want and need and desire. I want Kicks, I need more deadening, would love to swap out speakers just for shlitz and giggles. If not SVR then I may need to take a road trip for the next GTG.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Stycker said:


> Please tell me your going to SVR this year. I feel like I have been a part of this build now. I would love to see and hear this thing. You have been doing everything I want and need and desire. I want Kicks, I need more deadening, would love to swap out speakers just for shlitz and giggles. If not SVR then I may need to take a road trip for the next GTG.


<3. I am 100% planning on making it to SVR this year.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

I’ll be at SVR this year also. Very much looking forward to it. Will be my first time.


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

saltyone said:


> I’ll be at SVR this year also. Very much looking forward to it. Will be my first time.


Cool, more people to hang out with. It will be cool to see all the builds here first, then see and hear them in person.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Alright so part 1 of 2 today. I was thankfully able to another good chunk of stuff done - re-sound treated my rear doors, swapped out my Piccolos for the TBMs and squeezed a tune in before 5:30.

So the boring stuff first - rear doors. I am not even sure I can qualify the 6 strips of 1/4" CCF I had scattered on my rear doors as "sound treatment". But anyways, I used only a sheet each door card of Resonix CLD. It's always surprising how little of this stuff it takes to make a very quick change in the sound of the door.









Then I was able to get a couple area of double thickness fiber mat. I used some leftover 45 in the big voids and then covered the door with Fiber Mat 25 after.
















Then on to the juicy stuff. So first things first, we got the whole family together for the holidays and took a family photo. Not shown - 3 boxes of MTI stuff and about 30 boxes of Resonix items.









Then the we went to say good bye to one of my favorite drivers to date. My Piccolos. They are off to @chasingSQ and I am anxious to see what he does with them. So we got the Morels out and back in their packaging.









Then got the new Valicar pods mounted to the pillar. Thankfully was able to reuse the base from the previous pods so I just had to get them aimed properly. Only odd part was they are slotted in a way to promote mounting the tweeter vertically (which doesn't matter acoustically but does aesthetically) so I had to drill out a new mounting hole in the pod. Wasn't a big deal but made aiming a bit tougher. Ironically, I really enjoy the difference in staging from how these ended up aiming.










Then wired up the the pods and terminations then bolted in the drivers. I love that the Valicar pods include black bolts.
















And front stage, upgraded. Next stop, pillars.









Tuniing, next.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

So a quick tuning update as well. Surprisingly, things just kind of fell together on this tune, in a good way. Everything is 1/12 smoothing from and 1/48 octave RTA.

So first graph is showing the Piccolos vs TBMs on equal power, 2500 hz LR2 (12db), no EQ. 6 ohm vs 4 ohm, no not entirely surprising. Biggest observations, crazy corner loading effect down in 700-800 Hz range and then a strong top end north of 12k.









Then I took the raw measurement, dropped some gain (-2.5 db from the Morels) and was able to get a really nice matching pair of responses.









Then the summed pair, some minor cancellation in the 1.5k range but it was pretty narrow so I let it be. Really nice summing all the way up to 17.5k or so.









Then added in my front stage, which was kind of a mess, not sure if I got too into the weeds on my old tune or my drivers are breaking in and not tuning inside my warehouse vs outside, who knows. My mids were pretty rocky and mid bass a little bloated. But the tweets summed really well with the mids at 2.5k.









Then finally, with the help of virtual channels and REW EQ, we were able to get this. 









This is the tune I am the most proud of for some reason. It was also one of my shortest. I think I just keep it more methodically and simple and it delivered the most linear and cohesive tune so far. Still have some break in time left on the drivers so I am sure I will be back in there adjusting soon but right now, it's bliss. 

The TBMs are wildly dynamic, attack but never bite and retrieve a level of detail I only heard in Nick's Volvo and @Picassotheimpaler 's 86. 

Also really like this tweeter aiming, either that or the TBMs made my stage width grow by like 6 inches. It's just outside of my sails now. The opening to Thriller took me for a trip.

Thank you for those who have followed along and contribute, always keeps me motivated. On to the next adventure we go.


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## Willbo (Mar 23, 2014)

So glad you got everything in! Not sure if anyone else is doing this but I am living vicariously through you and enjoying the journey. Thank you for such a wonderful build log. Between you and @UNBROKEN all of my 2022 goals have been accomplished, albeit through you two. Great job!


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

Hell my junk doesn’t even play right now. lol


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## Willbo (Mar 23, 2014)

UNBROKEN said:


> Hell my junk doesn’t even play right now. lol


…….yet.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

RickWilson said:


> <3. I am 100% planning on making it to SVR this year.


I’m actually considering making the drive up for that myself. Can’t decide between SVR or a trip to SoCal for a show and see old friends out there.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

UNBROKEN said:


> I’m actually considering making the drive up for that myself. Can’t decide between SVR or a trip to SoCal for a show and see old friends out there.


I vote SVR! It would be great to meet as many of you guys as possible.

I’ll be in Bowling Green, KY on 03/18 and Niceville, FL on 04/01.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Spend 2.5 hours in the truck so far today. These tweeters are just insane.

They just eat the power up and don't break a sweat while they gently melt your face off. The 3.5WM/TBM combo is lethal when set up correctly. They attack so hard and you'd expect them to hurt at some point but they never cross that line.

Back to more listening and smiling.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

You have me so freaking excited! Just a few more days! 🤤🤪


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## M_Mark28 (Mar 11, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> Spend 2.5 hours in the truck so far today. These tweeters are just insane.
> 
> They just eat the power up and don't break a sweat while they gently melt your face off. The 3.5WM/TBM combo is lethal when set up correctly. They attack so hard and you'd expect them to hurt at some point but they never cross that line.
> 
> Back to more listening and smiling.


Nice, did you keep your crossovers the same or a slight change


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

M_Mark28 said:


> Nice, did you keep your crossovers the same or a slight change


Still the same as before.

Electrically they are
0 - 70 LR4 Sub
80 - 220 LR4 (both) Midbass
220 LR4 - 2500 LR2 Midrange
2500 LR2 Tweeter

Acoustically things cross at 80/240/2500.


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## skuloelektron (11 d ago)

RickWilson said:


> Still the same as before. Electrically they are 0 - 70 LR4 Sub 80 - 220 LR4 (both) Midbass 220 LR4 - 2500 LR2 Midrange 2500 LR2 Tweeter Acoustically things cross at 80/240/2500.


 2500hz with only 12dB/oct? Is it safe for that new Be tweeters? Please and how you connect iphone with Topping D10s_? What kind of cable from iphone to Toppings usb input?


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

skuloelektron said:


> 2500hz with only 12dB/oct? Is it safe for that new Be tweeters? Please and how you connect iphone with Topping D10s_? What kind of cable from iphone to Toppings usb input?


Oh yeah, they're more than fine. Just for giggles I've run mine down to 1800 w/ a 48 db slope. You can see the diaphragm move, but they still sound incredible


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

RickWilson said:


> So a quick tuning update as well. Surprisingly, things just kind of fell together on this tune, in a good way. Everything is 1/12 smoothing from and 1/48 octave RTA.
> 
> So first graph is showing the Piccolos vs TBMs on equal power, 2500 hz LR2 (12db), no EQ. 6 ohm vs 4 ohm, no not entirely surprising. Biggest observations, crazy corner loading effect down in 700-800 Hz range and then a strong top end north of 12k.
> View attachment 359632
> ...


Sick! I'm glad that they did what we thought they would do! I would have felt bad talking them up as much as I did if you didn't find the juice to be worth the squeeze. The aiming of the tweeters makes a big difference, but you also have them further out from the pillar than your piccolos. So youre most likely getting much more window reflection than you were before, which is pulling out the stage some. Since they're so far away from the windows hopefully it should give the width without causing much if any comb filtering.
Also thank you for the all compliments and putting Nick's demo car and mine in the same breath. It's strangely an honor and humbling lol.


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## you asked (1 mo ago)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Oh yeah, they're more than fine. Just for giggles I've run mine down to 1800 w/ a 48 db slope. You can see the diaphragm move, but they still sound incredible


I have accidently crossed mine at 250hz and ran them like that for a few days. Something sounded very off, so I took the laptop back out and sure enough, tweeters and mid was mixed up. They were fine, and I am not shy with the volume knob.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

you asked said:


> I have accidently crossed mine at 250hz and ran them like that for a few days. Something sounded very off, so I took the laptop back out and sure enough, tweeters and mid was mixed up. They were fine, and I am not shy with the volume knob.


Now that you say that, I forgot about the day my processor lost it's tune and all my drivers were playing rull range. Luckily the tweeters have a passive "oh ****" filter on them @ 500hz. Same thing. Something sounded off, but honestly sounded good since only the crossovers we're off. I couldn't tell till the midrange bottomed out lol. But they took it like a champ. Also showed me that these utopia drivers can take a ALOT more than what I put them through.
Anyway. Sorry to hijack the thread.


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

skuloelektron said:


> 2500hz with only 12dB/oct? Is it safe for that new Be tweeters? Please and how you connect iphone with Topping D10s_? What kind of cable from iphone to Toppings usb input?


From post #210 because that signal chain is still the same.


----------



## HCWLSU101 (Apr 30, 2009)

Got the Blams installed that you sold me and I love them. Midbass is incredible.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

HCWLSU101 said:


> Got the Blams installed that you sold me and I love them. Midbass is incredible.


They are a fantastic driver. Glad they worked out.


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## skuloelektron (11 d ago)

RickWilson said:


> So a quick tuning update as well. Surprisingly, things just kind of fell together on this tune, in a good way. Everything is 1/12 smoothing from and 1/48 octave RTA.
> 
> So first graph is showing the Piccolos vs TBMs on equal power, 2500 hz LR2 (12db), no EQ. 6 ohm vs 4 ohm, no not entirely surprising. Biggest observations, crazy corner loading effect down in 700-800 Hz range and then a strong top end north of 12k.
> View attachment 359632
> ...


*Then finally, with the help of virtual channels and REW EQ, we were able to get this.*

Please could you explain me (maybe I do not understand it correct) how virtual channel processing of Helix sw helped you with that RTA adjustment. Your RTA is awesome anyway (tolerance in 2-3dB), but how virtual channel processing could help with it?


----------



## you asked (1 mo ago)

skuloelektron said:


> *Then finally, with the help of virtual channels and REW EQ, we were able to get this.*
> 
> Please could you explain me (maybe I do not understand it correct) how virtual channel processing of Helix sw helped you with that RTA adjustment. Your RTA is awesome anyway (tolerance in 2-3dB), but how virtual channel processing could help with it?


an additional bank of equalization that 1) obviously allows for the use of more EQ, and 2) keeping things organized


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## skuloelektron (11 d ago)

you asked said:


> an additional bank of equalization that 1) obviously allows for the use of more EQ, and 2) keeping things organized


Still do not understand, cause you could equalized input signal (under IO cell next to signal detection icon) and also output signal (under RTA cell) , but it absolutely nothing to do with Virtual channels processing...


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## you asked (1 mo ago)

skuloelektron said:


> Still do not understand, cause you could equalized input signal (under IO cell next to signal detection icon) and also output signal (under RTA cell) , but it absolutely nothing to do with Virtual channels processing...


he is using digital input. he cannot equalize the input signal.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

skuloelektron said:


> Still do not understand, cause you could equalized input signal (under IO cell next to signal detection icon) and also output signal (under RTA cell) , but it absolutely nothing to do with Virtual channels processing...


I’ll explain what I do a little later on tonight but I need access to REW to show it graphically a bit easier.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

skuloelektron said:


> Still do not understand, cause you could equalized input signal (under IO cell next to signal detection icon) and also output signal (under RTA cell) , but it absolutely nothing to do with Virtual channels processing...


So, one thing I’ve been trying (right, wrong or indifferent) is, that after I finish getting my front stage in decent shape, meaning:
Pair or matching drivers are summing well, as well as, summing well from tweet to mid to MB and lastly left to right. I want things to measure and reflect good summing and no phase issues, just minor peaks and valleys.

I will stop touching the output section of the EQ mostly at this point. (The individual channel eq)

I will then measure my front stage as a whole. Both left and right, tw/mid/mb. I will then take that measurement and bring into REW eq and set the curve settings to match my target curve. Then I will select and appropriate target level that’s reasonable for REW to work from.

Then I will let EQ run from 60 to 20000 hz (in my case) and let that generate eq filters like you would do with individual channels.










Then you can import these filters to both left and right virtual channels. This works for me because my Digital input “front” provides signal for my entire front stage. You’ll need to confirm what your settings are before trying this.


----------



## you asked (1 mo ago)

Apply a high pass to that target and eq to account for it.


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

you asked said:


> Apply a high pass to that target and eq to account for it.



You guys can talk over the phone, don't need the website, sound resonix? oops, I mean reasonable?


----------



## you asked (1 mo ago)

MythosDreamLab said:


> You guys can talk over the phone, don't need the website, sound resonix? oops, I mean reasonable?


Sorry, didn't know you don't want the random tidbits of advice out there for everyone else to see and use as well.. *🙄*


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

you asked said:


> Sorry, didn't know you don't want the random tidbits of advice out there for everyone else to see and use as well.. *🙄*


I didn't say that, did I?


----------



## you asked (1 mo ago)

MythosDreamLab said:


> I didn't say that, did I?


You literally just asked me to reach out to him outside of the forum to give him that advice, no?


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## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

Feel good to be able to argue again? I bet you missed it...!


----------



## you asked (1 mo ago)

MythosDreamLab said:


> Feel good to be able to argue again? I bet you missed it...!


Im just not sure why you would want me to not help publicly on the forum you moderate, and then say some weird "I didn't say that" **** lol.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Sadly had to spend the past 3-4 days laid up in bed from some minor surgery and away from my truck but I think my ears were happy to recover a bit from absolutely blasting them all of last week.

Had a funny story from last night - we (GF and I) drove out to dinner about 20 minutes away and about 10 minutes into the drive she goes "did you take off your studded tires?". I replied "no, but why do you say that?" and she says "something is different, your truck feels more quiet". I am not sure whether to gloat more about the Fiber Mat doing so much work or the fact I have successfully trained my gf's ears to now notice subtle differences in road noise/sound quality.

It is very noticeable now to have a normal volume conversation at highway speeds. Obviously there is still some road noise, it's a big damn rectangle with studded tires punching through the wind, but the cabin feels much more sealed. I even notice that when I remote started my truck this morning, that the cabin warms quicker and retains heat despite it being a colder morning.

Lastly - these Utopia drivers are like fine wine - they are only getting better with time. They are truly something special.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Sadly had to spend the past 3-4 days laid up in bed from some minor surgery and away from my truck but I think my ears were happy to recover a bit from absolutely blasting them all of last week.
> 
> Had a funny story from last night - we (GF and I) drove out to dinner about 20 minutes away and about 10 minutes into the drive she goes "did you take off your studded tires?". I replied "no, but why do you say that?" and she says "something is different, your truck feels more quiet". I am not sure whether to gloat more about the Fiber Mat doing so much work or the fact I have successfully trained my gf's ears to now notice subtle differences in road noise/sound quality.
> 
> ...


Hope you feel better, but that is funny about the GF. Me, I'm fixing to have my wife drive me around while I'm in the back hunting an annoying squeak and and find where all the road noise is coming from. I still have all the panels out, but it sounds like I have the back hatch open. Gonna figure out where most of it is coming from as the floor is done.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Hope you feel better, but that is funny about the GF. Me, I'm fixing to have my wife drive me around while I'm in the back hunting an annoying squeak and and find where all the road noise is coming from. I still have all the panels out, but it sounds like I have the back hatch open. Gonna figure out where most of it is coming from as the floor is done.


Ha! I've done that recently myself. Me: "Come on babe...we're going for a ride and you're driving". Her: "Why are you getting in the back?". Me: "I have to find out where this damn noise is coming from.". Her: "Oh...you know you're strange, right?"


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Hope you feel better, but that is funny about the GF. Me, I'm fixing to have my wife drive me around while I'm in the back hunting an annoying squeak and and find where all the road noise is coming from. I still have all the panels out, but it sounds like I have the back hatch open. Gonna figure out where most of it is coming from as the floor is done.


I'll steal this from Nick's website....

_"It’s best to do the whole car if you are going to attempt sound-proofing in our experience. Floor, trunk, doors, etc. When I tell this to people, they usually question if only doing the more general areas will be enough. Again, in our experience, and while there may be exceptions to the rule, it typically will not be worth the effort. As I said before, sound will find its way in the car. Here is an analogy that I have lived through many times that I still use to explain… Say your annoying and inconsiderate next-door neighbor decides to cut his grass with his obnoxiously loud mower at 7 am on a Sunday while you’re trying to sleep in on your only day off. It just so happens that it was a warm night, and you slept with your window open. The second he fires up that old John Deer of his, it wakes you up. You think to yourself, “Ugh, here we go again. Better close my window and try to get back to sleep”. What happens to your perceived volume of his mower when you close your window halfway? Nothing, right? What about when you close it 90% of the way? Still pretty much no different than with it fully open. What about when you close it pretty much all the way but don’t lock it and have a good seal? Yeah, perceived volume is lower, but not by as much as you had hoped. Your perceived volume of his mower only becomes significantly lower and tolerable when you fully seal that window shut and lock it. It’s no different when trying to sound-proof your vehicle. Take this into consideration."_

I am certainly at the point where pockets of isolated noise are becoming more apparent - front of firewall, bottom of B pillars, select areas of my floor, etc. It's an ongoing battle but short of ripping the truck apart to treat the floor and firewall with his Barrier product, I am pretty much at my limit of investing in sound treatment on my truck.


----------



## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> I'll steal this from Nick's website....
> 
> _"It’s best to do the whole car if you are going to attempt sound-proofing in our experience. Floor, trunk, doors, etc. When I tell this to people, they usually question if only doing the more general areas will be enough. Again, in our experience, and while there may be exceptions to the rule, it typically will not be worth the effort. As I said before, sound will find its way in the car. Here is an analogy that I have lived through many times that I still use to explain… Say your annoying and inconsiderate next-door neighbor decides to cut his grass with his obnoxiously loud mower at 7 am on a Sunday while you’re trying to sleep in on your only day off. It just so happens that it was a warm night, and you slept with your window open. The second he fires up that old John Deer of his, it wakes you up. You think to yourself, “Ugh, here we go again. Better close my window and try to get back to sleep”. What happens to your perceived volume of his mower when you close your window halfway? Nothing, right? What about when you close it 90% of the way? Still pretty much no different than with it fully open. What about when you close it pretty much all the way but don’t lock it and have a good seal? Yeah, perceived volume is lower, but not by as much as you had hoped. Your perceived volume of his mower only becomes significantly lower and tolerable when you fully seal that window shut and lock it. It’s no different when trying to sound-proof your vehicle. Take this into consideration."_
> 
> I am certainly at the point where pockets of isolated noise are becoming more apparent - front of firewall, bottom of B pillars, select areas of my floor, etc. It's an ongoing battle but short of ripping the truck apart to treat the floor and firewall with his Barrier product, I am pretty much at my limit of investing in sound treatment on my truck.


Yea, read his page yesterday twice. I know most of the sound is coming from the back and since the entire floor is covered in LLP, I should be able to hear where the majority is coming from. I'm not trying to completely stop it, I just want it reduced before I put the panels on. I want to know where to put the most effort and materials in. I think most of it is coming from the area below the hatch and back of the spare tire tub as that is the one spot I haven't treated yet as I don't know if I can put the trim back on with LLP. It sounds like I'm driving down the road with the back hatch open. it was very similar when I had the spare tire cover off but still had all the panels on.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

My thoughts on the whole deal…at some point it’s just a waste of time. I can treat every square inch of the interior but I still have windows everywhere and a panoramic sunroof plus 315 wide tires on all 4 corners and a dual 3” exhaust. I did everything I possibly could but finally threw in the towel. It is what it is at this point.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

UNBROKEN said:


> My thoughts on the whole deal…at some point it’s just a waste of time. I can treat every square inch of the interior but I still have windows everywhere and a panoramic sunroof plus 315 wide tires on all 4 corners and a dual 3” exhaust. I did everything I possibly could but finally threw in the towel. It is what it is at this point.


Pretty much where I am - I'll the front wheel wells once I pop them off on Saturday but that's going to be it for me. Probably add a little CLD when I do my kicks as well.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Couple of follow up measurements for those that are curious. I know I touched on virtual channel EQ a few posts ago, but wanted to reflect the results of that EQ. 

This is front stage, before and after. Remember that I eq'ed the front stage as a whole in REW, then copied the EQ filters to both left and right front full virtual channels:









Then I wanted to show the affect it has on summed pairs:









Then lastly wanted to show all summed pairs vs the final tune. 








I didn't really realize how low my doors were crossing acoustically, even with an 80hz HP on the MB and 70hz LP on the subs, I am crossed right around 67. My doors are still holding strong surprisingly. 

Mid and tweet end up close to 2.4k.


----------



## you asked (1 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> I'll steal this from Nick's website....
> 
> _"It’s best to do the whole car if you are going to attempt sound-proofing in our experience. Floor, trunk, doors, etc. When I tell this to people, they usually question if only doing the more general areas will be enough. Again, in our experience, and while there may be exceptions to the rule, it typically will not be worth the effort. As I said before, sound will find its way in the car. Here is an analogy that I have lived through many times that I still use to explain… Say your annoying and inconsiderate next-door neighbor decides to cut his grass with his obnoxiously loud mower at 7 am on a Sunday while you’re trying to sleep in on your only day off. It just so happens that it was a warm night, and you slept with your window open. The second he fires up that old John Deer of his, it wakes you up. You think to yourself, “Ugh, here we go again. Better close my window and try to get back to sleep”. What happens to your perceived volume of his mower when you close your window halfway? Nothing, right? What about when you close it 90% of the way? Still pretty much no different than with it fully open. What about when you close it pretty much all the way but don’t lock it and have a good seal? Yeah, perceived volume is lower, but not by as much as you had hoped. Your perceived volume of his mower only becomes significantly lower and tolerable when you fully seal that window shut and lock it. It’s no different when trying to sound-proof your vehicle. Take this into consideration."_
> 
> I am certainly at the point where pockets of isolated noise are becoming more apparent - front of firewall, bottom of B pillars, select areas of my floor, etc. It's an ongoing battle but short of ripping the truck apart to treat the floor and firewall with his Barrier product, I am pretty much at my limit of investing in sound treatment on my truck.


That quote is for noise barriers. You installed a sound absorber. They work differently and you do not have to do 100% coverage with an absorber.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

UNBROKEN said:


> My thoughts on the whole deal…at some point it’s just a waste of time. I can treat every square inch of the interior but I still have windows everywhere and a panoramic sunroof plus 315 wide tires on all 4 corners and a dual 3” exhaust. I did everything I possibly could but finally threw in the towel. It is what it is at this point.


After all the effort, has it made any difference at all?


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

*damn that looks good, how does it sound? *


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Couple of follow up measurements for those that are curious. I know I touched on virtual channel EQ a few posts ago, but wanted to reflect the results of that EQ.
> 
> This is front stage, before and after. Remember that I eq'ed the front stage as a whole in REW, then copied the EQ filters to both left and right front full virtual channels:
> View attachment 360070
> ...


Rick, do you mind schooling me a bit on these measurements and where you made changes? I can pull the data all day, but understanding what I'm looking at is an area I need to work on. To me, in the first graph, there looks to be a peak 675 range and a dip in the 500-600 range. There is clearly some wavyness elsewhere, but I am using this area as an example. Is my understanding of what I am seeing accurate? Is that an area you had to correct? How did you correct that spot in the DSP?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Dgan21 said:


> *damn that looks good, how does it sound? *


I’ll let @Nemesis87 give any feedback he’d like to. He just got to listen to it for about an hour.


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## Nemesis87 (6 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> I’ll let @Nemesis87 give any feedback he’d like to. He just got to listen to it for about an hour.


Objectively speaking, I don’t think better exists. You knew going into it that that mid/tweet combo was going to be a real b¡tch to tune, but the system lacks nothing. You didn’t even give it a full re-tune, did you? You have incredible detail, good attack, staging is as wide as ever, and the midbass has finally caught up. Midbass moving up through midrange is close to perfect. “Chef’s kiss” like you said. It is so pleasing to listen to. And once I understood what you were after, all the gear swaps to get to this point make perfect sense. I’d be surprised if you swapped these out for something else, especially after giving them a fair tune. We didn’t really do too much critical listening, we were busy yapping, but we did crank it up a few times and holy fvck! The system now has the output you were looking for and stays extremely composed, right up to ear splitting levels. I know you’re going to make some changes, but I can’t wait to hear this thing again after you done a full tune and then made your own fine adjustments after living with it for a while.

And that’s just the front the stage. The install itself is on another level. No rattles or unwanted vibrations. No harsh resonance coming from anywhere. Incredible system overall, professionally done or otherwise, and it was all DIY. Bravo, sir!


----------



## you asked (1 mo ago)

Nemesis87 said:


> I’d be surprised if you swapped these out for something else,


Give him 72 hours..


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## Nemesis87 (6 mo ago)

you asked said:


> Give him 72 hours..


Lol He already mentioned Dyn mids, but I think once he’s properly tuned these, he’s not gonna want to change them. 🤞


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## audionow (Oct 29, 2021)

It's a new year. Give him some time and he'll be going accuton/brax.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

you asked said:


> Give him 72 hours..





audionow said:


> It's a new year. Give him some time and he'll be going accuton/brax.


y’all are killing me. But no changes to equipment for now. All install and tuning for the foreseeable future. Maybeeeee trialing some subs down the road. 

but I was damn close to buying jimmys gx2400. Just don’t feel like tearing apart my truck, again.


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## cowdog360 (Jan 17, 2021)

But.. what about the subs?


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## Nemesis87 (6 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> y’all are killing me. But no changes to equipment for now. All install and tuning for the foreseeable future. Maybeeeee trialing some subs down the road.
> 
> but I was damn close to buying jimmys gx2400. Just don’t feel like tearing apart my truck, again.


I thought we were just talking about the front stage. For sure you can do better on the sub/amp side of things, but I doubt you’ll find a better front stage (which is where your efforts have been focused anyway).


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

cowdog360 said:


> But.. what about the subs?


Staying….for now. Front stage needs both pillars, kicks and most importantly Nick’s tuning skills before I making any changes back there.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> After all the effort, has it made any difference at all?


For sure but there’s a point where you can only do so much.


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

UNBROKEN said:


> For sure but there’s a point where you can only do so much.


I've often gone to great lengths making a change to a system and had to admit inside to myself later I really noticed very little difference. 
But that's because sometimes you make a change whether large or small and you're all like "ahhhhhhhhhhh.....yeah !"


----------



## you asked (1 mo ago)

preston said:


> I've often gone to great lengths making a change to a system and had to admit inside to myself later I really noticed very little difference.
> But that's because sometimes you make a change whether large or small and you're all like "ahhhhhhhhhhh.....yeah !"


Sometimes those small changes are the difference between being annoyed and fully enjoying it without distraction.


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

Great work as always


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Maybeeeee trialing some subs down the road.


This... I've been reticent to comment on this because sub bass response is as personal a choice as tweeters and the overall tilt (yours is as flat as I've ever seen outside of a studio) but the one thing I keep seeing in your response is that flat area from 60-80Hz down. 

Would love to see/hear your reaction to a response more like the attached:









Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Rick, do you mind schooling me a bit on these measurements and where you made changes? I can pull the data all day, but understanding what I'm looking at is an area I need to work on. To me, in the first graph, there looks to be a peak 675 range and a dip in the 500-600 range. There is clearly some wavyness elsewhere, but I am using this area as an example. Is my understanding of what I am seeing accurate? Is that an area you had to correct? How did you correct that spot in the DSP?


Bob - not ignoring you, just need a PC to explain this a little better and in more detail, but the short answer is yes those areas had to be adjusted with EQ. For reference, my virtual channels have about 17-18 additional EQ filters in addition to each individual speaker channel having its own EQ.

I’ll shoot you a more detailed PM



daloudin said:


> This... I've been reticent to comment on this because sub bass response is as personal a choice as tweeters and the overall tilt (yours is as flat as I've ever seen outside of a studio) but the one thing I keep seeing in your response is that flat area from 60-80Hz down.
> 
> Would love to see/hear your reaction to a response more like the attached:
> 
> ...


I think I’ll inevitably try different subs out but truthfully trying to wait until the front stage is solidified.

in regards to your flat comment - do you mean flat overall like the 200 to 20000 region or like 20 to 20000? Or the sub response from below 70hz?

ill see if I can whip together a quick tune that follows that white ledge low end and see how I like it. I generally don’t like more than +10-12db in the sub bass areas as I feel it tends to dominate the system. This could either be my own personal taste / how sub bass reacts/sounds in my truck.

I certainly know the more and longer I’ve been tuning, the flatter my overall response gets. I’m driven but getting as much instrument separation and detail as possible. But I’m always down to experiment.

Will report back in a bit.


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

I personally like the flat bass you have. I go up 3-4 db's higher in the bass but still keep it flat. Once I went flat bass I was able to hear more bass detail overall. I also have a 60Hz suckout to deal with and this helps tremendously. Great work, love the build and tuning process.


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

RickWilson said:


> Bob - not ignoring you, just need a PC to explain this a little better and in more detail, but the short answer is yes those areas had to be adjusted with EQ. For reference, my virtual channels have about 17-18 additional EQ filters in addition to each individual speaker channel having its own EQ.
> 
> I’ll shoot you a more detailed PM
> 
> ...


i see a set of brahmas in your future , or morel ultimo


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

also why the 12 db slopes on the tweets ?


----------



## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Bob - not ignoring you, just need a PC to explain this a little better and in more detail, but the short answer is yes those areas had to be adjusted with EQ. For reference, my virtual channels have about 17-18 additional EQ filters in addition to each individual speaker channel having its own EQ.
> 
> I’ll shoot you a more detailed PM
> 
> ...


The 200-20k being flat overall. Most don't ever get that flat (impressive) and even the ones that can usually have a dip somewhere above 2kHz or they tilt down 3-6dB from some arbitrary midrange point. 

Don't try anything weird on my account though - I'm a total bottom feeder and a steep increase from 40Hz down would be all that I would aim for if the opportunity afforded itself. Too many IB installs in the past. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

daloudin said:


> The 200-20k being flat overall. Most don't ever get that flat (impressive) and even the ones that can usually have a dip somewhere above 2kHz or they tilt down 3-6dB from some arbitrary midrange point.
> 
> Don't try anything weird on my account though - I'm a total bottom feeder and a steep increase from 40Hz down would be all that I would aim for if the opportunity afforded itself. Too many IB installs in the past.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


I appreciate it. Mostly just tune over and over and over again from scratch but I think I am little too obsessed with making it perfectly linear sometimes - though I do always favor that sound signature. I have actually been playing with a high shelf filter per Nick and @Picassotheimpaler 's recommendations because there is a significant amount more detail that comes from the TBM vs the Piccolo, so reflections can get a little spicy. Right now, I have a very gentle high shelf @2500, -1db with a Q of 1. Rolls off about 1-1.5db from 2500 to 20000. Just enough to take the edge off but keep the detail the TBMs love to give.



Stycker said:


> I personally like the flat bass you have. I go up 3-4 db's higher in the bass but still keep it flat. Once I went flat bass I was able to hear more bass detail overall. I also have a 60Hz suckout to deal with and this helps tremendously. Great work, love the build and tuning process.


Yeah I briefly tried the whiteledge curve. 100% not for me. Mostly for me I like to play with the peak of the slope - 50, 60, 70, 80 all have their own unique variances. I tend to float on the higher end because I really like punchier, prominent midbass.


chasingSQ said:


> also why the 12 db slopes on the tweets ?


Something that @Picassotheimpaler had recommended me to try. My tune last week didn't have any issues summing but the tune I did a few hours ago had some weird stuff going on with mid and tweet summing. Weird enough to have me try flipping the polarity of my tweets.

See below. Yellow is with polarity matching between tweet and mid, magenta is with tweeter flipped.

















Couple of other notes. I didn't realize my pods were a bit smaller for the TBMs vs the Piccolos which messed with my TA. So some minor adjustments in TA made a very nice difference in the mid and tweet blend aka really nice, focused center image (something that @Nemesis87 had commented on last night).

One major focus this time was to make my mids as cohesive as possible. Used my first 2nd order all pass on the left mid at 620, very narrow Q (like 13-14) which helped clean up summing in that 600-700 range. Best I have done with my mids so far considering they usually end up pretty turbulent even if the individual drivers are near perfect.









This time I also EQ'ed both left and right front stage on their own in the virtual channels. This was to hope that I wasn't overcompensating with EQ and applying EQ to one side where it didn't really need it. I do think this helped also tighten up the front stage a bit.









This is the new tune I knocked out earlier. You can see the weird stuff going on around 1.7k and I feel I am overboosted on both mid and tweet in the 2.5k region (just to make the response sum correctly). I am going to move back to LR4s tomorrow and see where I end up.









Final Tune from yesterday vs today. They look exactly the same but sound a bit different.









And this is why tuning is a black hole.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

RickWilson said:


> I appreciate it. Mostly just tune over and over and over again from scratch but I think I am little too obsessed with making it perfectly linear sometimes - though I do always favor that sound signature. I have actually been playing with a high shelf filter per Nick and @Picassotheimpaler 's recommendations because there is a significant amount more detail that comes from the TBM vs the Piccolo, so reflections can get a little spicy. Right now, I have a very gentle high shelf @2500, -1db with a Q of 1. Rolls off about 1-1.5db from 2500 to 20000. Just enough to take the edge off but keep the detail the TBMs love to give.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You should get yourself a smaart/systune setup with the way you are going!


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

I once told Nick how much I sit in my car and tune and re-tune until its perfect, but its never perfect. He asked me why I tune it so much. He thought I was crazy. He said you should tune it once and leave it alone. Everytime I tune it I find out something new or inentionally try something new. I'm learning a lot just by tuning so much. He is probably right but I just can't seem to be able to leave it alone. If I learn a new trick on DIYMA I want to try and apply it. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. The one thing that I found was that music sounds more "REAL" when you use the least amount of filters. Rick, I want you to try this. Get everything perfect the way you have been. Once you feel everything is perfect and looks as flat as you have it, then go back and reset all EQ back to zero. Now this time don't let REW calculate the EQ. Do the EQ with REW but put in your own values. Only use 5-6 filters per driver and mostly low Q. Now compare the results both by ear and by graph. The new graph won't look as flat and linear but should sound more lively.


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## Nemesis87 (6 mo ago)

How’s the imaging now?


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

i wanna play with the max !


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## Dgan21 (Mar 25, 2021)

RickWilson said:


> I appreciate it. Mostly just tune over and over and over again from scratch but I think I am little too obsessed with making it perfectly linear sometimes - though I do always favor that sound signature. I have actually been playing with a high shelf filter per Nick and @Picassotheimpaler 's recommendations because there is a significant amount more detail that comes from the TBM vs the Piccolo, so reflections can get a little spicy. Right now, I have a very gentle high shelf @2500, -1db with a Q of 1. Rolls off about 1-1.5db from 2500 to 20000. Just enough to take the edge off but keep the detail the TBMs love to give.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just when I thought I was starting to understand the turning process…. 😂 🤦🏿‍♂️


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## Sam b (Oct 10, 2020)

I don’t wanna sound stupid. But I see everyone is shooting for the flattest response. Why is that. I’m not knowledgeable in that area at all. Does that simple mean that all speakers are hitting your ears a the same time. Or is the music flat like on an EQ would show.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

Stycker said:


> I once told Nick how much I sit in my car and tune and re-tune until its perfect, but its never perfect. He asked me why I tune it so much. He thought I was crazy. He said you should tune it once and leave it alone. Everytime I tune it I find out something new or inentionally try something new. I'm learning a lot just by tuning so much. He is probably right but I just can't seem to be able to leave it alone. If I learn a new trick on DIYMA I want to try and apply it. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. The one thing that I found was that music sounds more "REAL" when you use the least amount of filters. Rick, I want you to try this. Get everything perfect the way you have been. Once you feel everything is perfect and looks as flat as you have it, then go back and reset all EQ back to zero. Now this time don't let REW calculate the EQ. Do the EQ with REW but put in your own values. Only use 5-6 filters per driver and mostly low Q. Now compare the results both by ear and by graph. The new graph won't look as flat and linear but should sound more lively.


I was going to say something along those lines when I saw the recalc of filters for the sums. 
I agree with that, using as few EQ bands as possible and also keeping the EQ bands to lower Q (usually I shoot for lower than Q4 if possible). Then go back and add more narrow filters if needed. It sounds like it will take forever, but it only takes forever the first couple of times you do it. Then you will get used to what shape different Q filters correspond to, then be able to do it without even going into the EQ tab of REW.
I'm assuming it's because you aren't causing any sudden and huge phase swings on one side and not the other with low Q EQ bands. Ideally EQ fixes phase issues, but since a car isn't completely minimum phase that isn't always the case. But that's an absolute guess, so please don't take that as gospel lol


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> You should get yourself a smaart/systune setup with the way you are going!


So the local shop that I went to visit a few ago about a potential job/talk shop/listen to systems is getting a JL Max (or already has it) and I've reach out to him about doing some a la carte tuning for them in my "spare" time. I'm fairly confident he will let me break in the Max and hopefully gives me some time to learn how to use it properly. 

EDIT - he just got back to me and told he's fully on board with me tuning and using his Max system as I want, the moment that it arrives on his door step.



Stycker said:


> I once told Nick how much I sit in my car and tune and re-tune until its perfect, but its never perfect. He asked me why I tune it so much. He thought I was crazy. He said you should tune it once and leave it alone. Everytime I tune it I find out something new or inentionally try something new. I'm learning a lot just by tuning so much. He is probably right but I just can't seem to be able to leave it alone. If I learn a new trick on DIYMA I want to try and apply it. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. The one thing that I found was that music sounds more "REAL" when you use the least amount of filters. Rick, I want you to try this. Get everything perfect the way you have been. Once you feel everything is perfect and looks as flat as you have it, then go back and reset all EQ back to zero. Now this time don't let REW calculate the EQ. Do the EQ with REW but put in your own values. Only use 5-6 filters per driver and mostly low Q. Now compare the results both by ear and by graph. The new graph won't look as flat and linear but should sound more lively.


I will def give this a try. This is very well said. I am always obsessed with trialing new things, to a fault.

Generally I only use REW EQ once per driver and then once again to clean up the entire side of the front stage. Outside of my mids, most of the filters that REW used in this tune was actually a Q of 5 or less and about 5-8 filters a driver. Midranges used like 15 from REW cause they need so much help above 2K. But generally, I run REW EQ then make PEQ filters based on measurements and I feel pretty confident in my ability in knowing how to size filters based on response so I don't end up with excessive filters. I do think that I can too granular at times though. I find that I am slowly getting better about being efficient with my filters but still probably a bit aggressive chasing narrow peaks/valleys,



Nemesis87 said:


> How’s the imaging now?


Hopefully you can drop by this weekend and see how I did lol



Dgan21 said:


> Just when I thought I was starting to understand the turning process…. 😂 🤦🏿‍♂️


Based on our DMs, you are picking it up quickly!


Sam b said:


> I don’t wanna sound stupid. But I see everyone is shooting for the flattest response. Why is that. I’m not knowledgeable in that area at all. Does that simple mean that all speakers are hitting your ears a the same time. Or is the music flat like on an EQ would show.


To my understanding, it's to create a linear response, meaning not one set of frequencies dominate the sounds you are hearing allowing for you to hear as much information as possible. That's my uneducated hypothesis.



Picassotheimpaler said:


> I was going to say something along those lines when I saw the recalc of filters for the sums.
> I agree with that, using as few EQ bands as possible and also keeping the EQ bands to lower Q (usually I shoot for lower than Q4 if possible). Then go back and add more narrow filters if needed. It sounds like it will take forever, but it only takes forever the first couple of times you do it. Then you will get used to what shape different Q filters correspond to, then be able to do it without even going into the EQ tab of REW.
> I'm assuming it's because you aren't causing any sudden and huge phase swings on one side and not the other with low Q EQ bands. Ideally EQ fixes phase issues, but since a car isn't completely minimum phase that isn't always the case. But that's an absolute guess, so please don't take that as gospel lol


Def going to give this a try, once again, thanks all for the advice. Keeps me pushing forward.


----------



## you asked (1 mo ago)

Stycker said:


> I once told Nick how much I sit in my car and tune and re-tune until its perfect, but its never perfect. He asked me why I tune it so much. He thought I was crazy. He said you should tune it once and leave it alone.


Let me elaborate on that. You shouldnt be tuning it over and over again if you are just going to start fresh and use the exact same method. That will just yield you the same result. So yeah, pointless to keep doing it over and over. Either tune the car, and then listen for X amount of time, and make incremental adjustments from there. Attack one problem at a time. Or, just start fresh but try something new. 




Stycker said:


> The one thing that I found was that music sounds more "REAL" when you use the least amount of filters.


This is most likely becuase you are measuring or going about your filter setups poorly. I have noticed this



Stycker said:


> Only use 5-6 filters per driver and mostly low Q. Now compare the results both by ear and by graph. The new graph won't look as flat and linear but should sound more lively.


I have experienced this myself, but that was way in the past. I think it comes down to poor measurement and painting with broader strokes hides that, and/or when you tune it with issues still arising, you mistake those extra "lively" bits for a fun sound, when it's just something that's incorrectly sticking out and drawing your attention.





Picassotheimpaler said:


> I'm assuming it's because you aren't causing any sudden and huge phase swings on one side and not the other with low Q EQ bands. Ideally EQ fixes phase issues, but since a car isn't completely minimum phase that isn't always the case. But that's an absolute guess, so please don't take that as gospel lol


If the first sentence were true, the summed response of left/right would have all sorts of crazy cancellations. Also..
Remember, if your frequency response responds exactly as you input the eq filter, it is behaving as minimum phase. This is going to be a vast majority of your frequency range. In this case, fixing frequency response is fixing phase response. The old trope of "EQ ruins phase" really needs to die.


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## you asked (1 mo ago)

Extra tid bit of info.. @RickWilson when you heard my car with the Focal Utopia M 3 way, I would say 90% of the filters were being used on my DSP Ultra. I think you remember how that sounded


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

you asked said:


> Extra tid bit of info.. @RickWilson when you heard my car with the Focal Utopia M 3 way, I would say 90% of the filters were being used on my DSP Ultra. I think you remember how that sounded


Sounded just like my truck does now 😉

Generally I’m usually using 22-28 bands of most channels, except for subs. Kind of hard to not use 30 bands a channel with 1/12 smoothing and a trash platform for SQ lol.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Weekend trip to Vanguard on the books for Jan 20 - 22.

Pillars, maybe start some kicks, hopefully a tune .

Anxious to get hands on and learn from the crew.


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## you asked (1 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> Weekend trip to Vanguard on the books for Jan 20 - 22.
> 
> Pillars, maybe start some kicks, hopefully a tune .
> 
> Anxious to get hands on and learn from the crew.


Im just going to yell at you for not originally listening to me and just doing the Focals and tell you to go home


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

you asked said:


> Im just going to yell at you for not originally listening to me and just doing the Focals and tell you to go home


On brand 🤣


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

you asked said:


> If the first sentence were true, the summed response of left/right would have all sorts of crazy cancellations. Also..
> Remember, if your frequency response responds exactly as you input the eq filter, it is behaving as minimum phase. This is going to be a vast majority of your frequency range. In this case, fixing frequency response is fixing phase response. The old trope of "EQ ruins phase" really needs to die.


Woah woah, be careful there. Disagreeing with people is how you get the ban hammer in these parts lol.
Fair enough. Either way to clarify my statement a bit, regardless of why it's more of an exercise in not using unnecessary EQ, and simplifying the EQ for me. The number of EQ bands is less what matters, but not using EQ where it isn't actually needed is.
Like you said, when I spend a lot of time on a car there's a good chance nearly every band has been touched. But I also know REW EQ wizard is notorious (or atleast was for me) for throwing out a huge quantity of EQ bands with no regard to anything but making the graph the most flat. If you go ahead and enter all of those EQ bands, chances are a LOT of them are really unnecessary and artifacts of the measurement.
So starting with wide Q changes helps get the response in atleast a listenable area, then you can go back and use some higher q bands to really match your curve. Then finally go back with L/R global EQ for centering image a bit and fine tuning.
Anyway, sorry for cluttering your thread, feel free to ask me to delete it if you want =]


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Woah woah, be careful there. Disagreeing with people is how you get the ban hammer in these parts lol.
> Fair enough. Either way to clarify my statement a bit, regardless of why it's more of an exercise in not using unnecessary EQ, and simplifying the EQ for me. The number of EQ bands is less what matters, but not using EQ where it isn't actually needed is.
> Like you said, when I spend a lot of time on a car there's a good chance nearly every band has been touched. But I also know REW EQ wizard is notorious (or atleast was for me) for throwing out a huge quantity of EQ bands with no regard to anything but making the graph the most flat. If you go ahead and enter all of those EQ bands, chances are a LOT of them are really unnecessary and artifacts of the measurement.
> So starting with wide Q changes helps get the response in atleast a listenable area, then you can go back and use some higher q bands to really match your curve. Then finally go back with L/R global EQ for centering image a bit and fine tuning.
> Anyway, sorry for cluttering your thread, feel free to ask me to delete it if you want =]


No no, always up to hear things from different sources. Your tweeter/mid sound always lives in my head when I tune.

Sadly my air vents are circular and/or on axis lol.


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

you asked said:


> Im just going to yell at you for not originally listening to me and just doing the Focals and tell you to go home


ohhh shizzz he is back


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

you asked said:


> Remember, if your frequency response responds exactly as you input the eq filter, it is behaving as minimum phase. This is going to be a vast majority of your frequency range. In this case, fixing frequency response is fixing phase response. The old trope of "EQ ruins phase" really needs to die.


-   
And if response doesn't respond then there's a phase or alignment issue that needs to be addressed first.

Most of the clean up tunes that I've seen were the result of not confirming TA or phase adjustments by ear before starting to EQ and/or boosting instead of cutting. To much reliance on instrumented testing without understanding what you hear...

Don't get me wrong though... I'm a huge proponent of less is more when it comes to EQ and my system has a zero EQ tune available at all times for A/B comparisons but when used correctly you are "fixing" phase way more often than you are messing phase up.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

daloudin said:


> -
> And if response doesn't respond then there's a phase or alignment issue that needs to be addressed first.
> 
> Most of the clean up tunes that I've seen were the result of not confirming TA or phase adjustments by ear before starting to EQ and/or boosting instead of cutting. To much reliance on instrumented testing without understanding what you hear...
> ...


Last night, couldn’t sleep nearly at all so ended up down a couple of rabbit holes -

1, listening to various tones and sweeps through some headphones. This was in hopes to get a better sense of understanding pitch and sound of various octaves to help train my ears. Also to extract where each of my ears rolled off hearing wise and where they became most sensitive to sibliance / aggravated from top end frequency.

my left ear (some tinnitus and hearing loss) rolls off around 11000 and my right ear is good to somewhere between 16700 and 17000.

my right ear is quite sensitive from 6900 to about 8000, it’s not terrible but if my response is at all peaky in this area, my right ear immediately will let me know.

and 2, in anticipation to getting my hands on the JL Max system, I started watching JL’s guide videos concerning how to use the system and spent about 4 hours watching videos related to IR, phase and the interface/program navigation.

I’m very excited to see how my ears and interpretation of measurements end up looking on the Max, specifically IR and phase. But there was TONs of great little tidbits of information in the videos (most of which is not related to the JL platform, but more tuning and measurements in general) for folks who want to learn more.

I don’t know Nick Ames (the man from JL driving around the software in the videos and giving tons of specific info) from a hole in the wall, but I guarantee for anyone who enjoys tuning, you’ll gather some new information, big or small. And it’s all free.

I know there are ways to get to IR and phase easier and cheaper than the Max, but the ability to organize and read the information on their UI seems pretty powerful and time efficient.


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## Stycker (Jan 31, 2018)

you asked said:


> Let me elaborate on that. You shouldnt be tuning it over and over again if you are just going to start fresh and use the exact same method. That will just yield you the same result. So yeah, pointless to keep doing it over and over. Either tune the car, and then listen for X amount of time, and make incremental adjustments from there. Attack one problem at a time. Or, just start fresh but try something new.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Welcome Home. I love the name. Very appropriate.


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## Picassotheimpaler (Sep 21, 2014)

RickWilson said:


> 1, listening to various tones and sweeps through some headphones. This was in hopes to get a better sense of understanding pitch and sound of various octaves to help train my ears. Also to extract where each of my ears rolled off hearing wise and where they became most sensitive to sibliance / aggravated from top end frequency.


Give this program by hardon kardon a try when your bored. It's SUPER useful for training your ears to what frequency bands do what. And it gets increasing difficult as you start to know what to listen for. It can be very monotonous, but it does it's job quite well.








Welcome to How to Listen!


Overview How to Listen is a desktop software application developed by the Harman Internationa l R&D group for the purpose of training an...




harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Last night, couldn’t sleep nearly at all so ended up down a couple of rabbit holes -
> 
> 1, listening to various tones and sweeps through some headphones. This was in hopes to get a better sense of understanding pitch and sound of various octaves to help train my ears. Also to extract where each of my ears rolled off hearing wise and where they became most sensitive to sibliance / aggravated from top end frequency.
> 
> ...


You and I share the left ear problem - my audiologist attributes that to shooting high powered weapons right handed and that ear being exposed to more of the muzzle blast versus the right ear which is occluded or protected by being snugged up against my shoulder. Confuses some when they see my twisting my head left and right in their car but once you understand the differences between each ear you can actually use it as a diagnostic tool to confirm what you are hearing.

Impulse response is one DEEP rabbit hole. We used everything from cow bell, rim shots, snare strikes and even synthesized broadband "clicks" to set IR in large scale PA and the difference from sound check to show time was often dramatic based on line array composition, atmospheric, geographic and structural conditions (and the huge distances) so accurate measurements (lasers in the later years) and understanding RT60 so you can believe what you ears are telling you becomes more important than ever. Then you have to make a distinction between getting the alignment "dry" or allowing the setup to contribute to the acoustic signature of the venue and the questions get complicated real quick. Modern DSP controlled PA systems with automatic IR and alignment calculations make even the most complicated setups faster to dial in than the simple setups we often used in a time compressed situation. My transition from those older more manual techniques to modern FIR and SMAART type systems and what's required in a highly reverberant small scale car audio was painful and time consuming as I often mistook early reflections for the source and made too big a swipe at changes.

I've not delved into the full white paper analysis of the JL Max yet but I'm having hernia surgery next week so I should have some spare time on my hands and I'm curious to see how their version compares to some of the more established players.



Audio Analysis Tools, Part 1 – FOH | Front of House Magazine



Looking forward to hearing what you think of Max... 🤘


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Picassotheimpaler said:


> Give this program by hardon kardon a try when your bored. It's SUPER useful for training your ears to what frequency bands do what. And it gets increasing difficult as you start to know what to listen for. It can be very monotonous, but it does it's job quite well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok this tool is awesome and wayyyyy more along the lines of what I looking to train my ears. I am happy I can get through the triple filter section pretty easily (dips vs cuts at Q1, +6db), I am probably 70% successful on the quad filters and like 40-50% when it get to the narrow 5 band eq trials.

This is something I will come back to a few times. Thanks for the recommendation Lance


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

daloudin said:


> You and I share the left ear problem - my audiologist attributes that to shooting high powered weapons right handed and that ear being exposed to more of the muzzle blast versus the right ear which is occluded or protected by being snugged up against my shoulder. Confuses some when they see my twisting my head left and right in their car but once you understand the differences between each ear you can actually use it as a diagnostic tool to confirm what you are hearing.
> 
> Impulse response is one DEEP rabbit hole. We used everything from cow bell, rim shots, snare strikes and even synthesized broadband "clicks" to set IR in large scale PA and the difference from sound check to show time was often dramatic based on line array composition, atmospheric, geographic and structural conditions (and the huge distances) so accurate measurements (lasers in the later years) and understanding RT60 so you can believe what you ears are telling you becomes more important than ever. Then you have to make a distinction between getting the alignment "dry" or allowing the setup to contribute to the acoustic signature of the venue and the questions get complicated real quick. Modern DSP controlled PA systems with automatic IR and alignment calculations make even the most complicated setups faster to dial in than the simple setups we often used in a time compressed situation. My transition from those older more manual techniques to modern FIR and SMAART type systems and what's required in a highly reverberant small scale car audio was painful and time consuming as I often mistook early reflections for the source and made too big a swipe at changes.
> 
> ...


Watching how the IR works, specific to initial delay and TA, it is pretty idiot proof with the MAX, especially if you are using it with the Vxi amps. 

Find the longest natively delayed driver, right click at the beginning of the impulse, move through each of the drivers and shift click at the beginning of each impulse for each channel and it auto applies the delay to match the longest delayed driver. You can perfectly TA/IR match/confirm polarity of 10 drivers in like 60 seconds.

I've yet to make my auto TA work in Helix albeit I have tried use it maybe once. I imagine it performs a similar calculation, the Max just does it in real time graphically.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

daloudin said:


> You and I share the left ear problem - my audiologist attributes that to shooting high powered weapons right handed and that ear being exposed to more of the muzzle blast versus the right ear which is occluded or protected by being snugged up against my shoulder. Confuses some when they see my twisting my head left and right in their car but once you understand the differences between each ear you can actually use it as a diagnostic tool to confirm what you are hearing.
> 
> Impulse response is one DEEP rabbit hole. We used everything from cow bell, rim shots, snare strikes and even synthesized broadband "clicks" to set IR in large scale PA and the difference from sound check to show time was often dramatic based on line array composition, atmospheric, geographic and structural conditions (and the huge distances) so accurate measurements (lasers in the later years) and understanding RT60 so you can believe what you ears are telling you becomes more important than ever. Then you have to make a distinction between getting the alignment "dry" or allowing the setup to contribute to the acoustic signature of the venue and the questions get complicated real quick. Modern DSP controlled PA systems with automatic IR and alignment calculations make even the most complicated setups faster to dial in than the simple setups we often used in a time compressed situation. My transition from those older more manual techniques to modern FIR and SMAART type systems and what's required in a highly reverberant small scale car audio was painful and time consuming as I often mistook early reflections for the source and made too big a swipe at changes.
> 
> ...


I always tired to wear at least 1 plug in my left ear even though I shot right handed. If I didn't, my left ear would ring like a mothereffer. Right ear didn't seem to care. After 10 years of that and loud music, I still have pretty good hearing.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> I always tired to wear at least 1 plug in my left ear even though I shot right handed. If I didn't, my left ear would ring like a mothereffer. Right ear didn't seem to care. After 10 years of that and loud music, I still have pretty good hearing.


I forgot to add that. My hearing loss was cause by the same thing. Had two rounds of skeet shooting year and years back. 12 rounds of 12 gauge shells without hearing protection forever tainted my left ear.

Right handed shooter as well.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

I was in the Infantry for several years and that was pretty much all we did, then I switch to EOD and ear plugs didn't matter as much.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> I've yet to make my auto TA work in Helix albeit I have tried use it maybe once. I imagine it performs a similar calculation, the Max just does it in real time graphically.


My experience with Helix Auto TA was mixed because I run a combination of active and passive crossovers. Once I got past trying to use the Auto TA on drivers that weren't in the same location but in the same channel it worked fine (that and the Windows crap low end filter setting) but I still tweaked the end result to get the IR at the xover between front and subwoofer better than what the Auto TA did... my guess is that the Helix used the front edge of the sub Impulse peak in the meat of my cabin gain around 37Hz and the front stage peak around 700Hz (both of which had to be cut in the EQ later) and once the delay to the front stage was increased more (sorry - didn't document how much) the transition to the sub was much smoother. The Auto TA was pulling the image to the rear. 

Side note: been running without the sub for about a month now (front 6x9s high pass defeated - removed for trip and my hidden enclosure is currently on loan) and other than some rattle behind the door panel (linkage I'm pretty sure) I've not missed it as much as anticipated... may have to consider lowering the xover point. 

Have you or anyone you know tried the door strips yet? 





ResoNix CCF Strips – Foam Strips For Speaker-To-Panel Coupling – ResoNix Sound Solutions







resonixsoundsolutions.com




I'm using CCF weatherstripping for window mount AC unit and it helps but I think something with more rebound to put more pressure on the back of the panel might work better. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

daloudin said:


> My experience with Helix Auto TA was mixed because I run a combination of active and passive crossovers. Once I got past trying to use the Auto TA on drivers that weren't in the same location but in the same channel it worked fine (that and the Windows crap low end filter setting) but I still tweaked the end result to get the IR at the xover between front and subwoofer better than what the Auto TA did... my guess is that the Helix used the front edge of the sub Impulse peak in the meat of my cabin gain around 37Hz and the front stage peak around 700Hz (both of which had to be cut in the EQ later) and once the delay to the front stage was increased more (sorry - didn't document how much) the transition to the sub was much smoother. The Auto TA was pulling the image to the rear.
> 
> Side note: been running without the sub for about a month now (front 6x9s high pass defeated - removed for trip and my hidden enclosure is currently on loan) and other than some rattle behind the door panel (linkage I'm pretty sure) I've not missed it as much as anticipated... may have to consider lowering the xover point.
> 
> ...


Good stuff to know when playing around with TA and IR.

In regards to the Resonix strips, I actually have an extra set of the pre-production samples his manufacturer sent him sitting on my desk behind me. I saw the pre-sale and annoyed him enough to let me try them when I rebuild my door baffles for my 8WMs tomorrow.

Just opened the box and realized that I think I got both the pre-pre production model (far right of 1st photo) and the final design model (middle) and compared to the popular SoundSkins rings. There is a very noticeable difference in the CCF foam density when comparing the Resonix to the SoundSkins.
















I actually have the SQL Audio Soundwave Rings (they come with the Door Baffle kit from Sounds Good Stereo) in my front doors right now. 








They are decent enough but are the similar lesser density foam from the Soundskins and the adhesive backing is the weakest of the bunch.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

RickWilson said:


> Good stuff to know when playing around with TA and IR.
> 
> In regards to the Resonix strips, I actually have an extra set of the pre-production samples his manufacturer sent him sitting on my desk behind me. I saw the pre-sale and annoyed him enough to let me try them when I rebuild my door baffles for my 8WMs tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Spectacular! Looking forward to seeing if the midbass changes with just the CCF ring...


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

daloudin said:


> Spectacular! Looking forward to seeing if the midbass changes with just the CCF ring...


I doubt anything majorly audible but makes me more confident in the seal and bonding of the rings.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

The adhesive of the soundskins rings was a major letdown for me.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

slowride said:


> The adhesive of the soundskins rings was a major letdown for me.


Kind of an overarching theme for all of their products. While the rings never moved or came loose, they peeled off like a post it note.

The 3-in-1 on my doors is fine enough for what it does. I rolled the living hell out of it and it still takes a fair amount of force to remove it but it's not even in the same ballpark as the adhesive used on the Resonix CLD/CFF. Anyone remember the Ford F150 commercial where they dangled the truck from a crane using a carriage bolt or two? I feel I could slap a 3 ft x 3 ft piece of the CLD on my tailgate and it could hold the entire weight of my truck. It's god damn near impossible to remove. A 2 inch by 2 inch area took me a full 20 min and about 10 expletives to scrape of the back wall during my amp rack install.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

i originally started my front doors using the sql audio stuff from sounds good. then i read some of nick's early resonix postings and i pulled that **** off. was a pain in the ass but not impossible. one weekend and it was out of my truck. at the time i used secondskin because free shipping. shipping to california like everything else is expensive as hell. i've since learned though. next truck/vehicle is getting a full resonix treatment.


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## chasingSQ (Sep 25, 2017)

that resonix stuff is pretty awesome .


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

chasingSQ said:


> that resonix stuff is pretty awesome .


As the resident Resonix shill on DIYMA, I am contractually obligated to agree with you.


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## UNBROKEN (Sep 25, 2009)

slowride said:


> The adhesive of the soundskins rings was a major letdown for me.


Really? I couldn’t get it off of my midbass’ when I pulled them out of the door. I spent hours with a rag and can of acetone trying to get it all cleaned off the flange.


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

Although there are several hidden pitfalls, once you get it working I really like Helix AutoTA. I've verified it with tape measurements (more as a sanity check that its in the ballpark). If you run it multiple times you will see a recognizable amount of variance (10% ? ) between each run.

Certainly seems easier than what people are doing in other threads using IR response and phase measurements in REW to set timing. That being said I do plan to pick up a loopback box and Open Sound Meter software to get a better picture of my overall phase.


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## slowride (Jan 26, 2009)

UNBROKEN said:


> Really? I couldn’t get it off of my midbass’ when I pulled them out of the door. I spent hours with a rag and can of acetone trying to get it all cleaned off the flange.


i stuck the rings on the hdpe mount and not the driver. was using a GB60 at the time and it doesn't have an outer frame to really adhere the ring to. it cound have been the material (hdpe in this case) i was installing the ring on. i added a couple pieces of buytl rope to make them adhere.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

preston said:


> Although there are several hidden pitfalls, once you get it working I really like Helix AutoTA. I've verified it with tape measurements (more as a sanity check that its in the ballpark). If you run it multiple times you will see a recognizable amount of variance (10% ? ) between each run.
> 
> Certainly seems easier than what people are doing in other threads using IR response and phase measurements in REW to set timing. That being said I do plan to pick up a loopback box and Open Sound Meter software to get a better picture of my overall phase.


I'm just buying time until my local guy finally gets his JL Max in hand. He's giving it to me for a few weeks to learn and trial. Let me know what config you end up buying. I may buy something to keep with me. I'd like a good quality single mic set up and interface that can IR/phase measurments. Thinking a Scarlett 2-1-2 and Earthworks M23 Mic would let me do just about anything I wanted to - I think this is what Nick uses for most vehicles if not using an array set up.


slowride said:


> i stuck the rings on the hdpe mount and not the driver. was using a GB60 at the time and it doesn't have an outer frame to really adhere the ring to. it cound have been the material (hdpe in this case) i was installing the ring on. i added a couple pieces of buytl rope to make them adhere.


Mine both times were on UHMW rings cleaned with alcohol prior to adhering. Again - they didn't move so I really can't complain but I know they came off without residue and very little effort.


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## you asked (1 mo ago)

The Helix Auto TA works very well if you have a system where the subwoofer can play higher frequencies. When it doesn't work, it usually doesn't make it through because it cannot get higher frequency information from the sub and cannot determine impulse.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

you asked said:


> The Helix Auto TA works very well if you have a system where the subwoofer can play higher frequencies. When it doesn't work, it usually doesn't make it through because it cannot get higher frequency information from the sub and cannot determine impulse.


What you consider as reference for "high"? 100 hz? I wanted to try using it again this weekend.


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## you asked (1 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> What you consider as reference for "high"? 100 hz? I wanted to try using it again this weekend.


Not sure tbh


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

you asked said:


> The Helix Auto TA works very well if you have a system where the subwoofer can play higher frequencies. When it doesn't work, it usually doesn't make it through because it cannot get higher frequency information from the sub and cannot determine impulse.


Does this hold true even with a Class One mic like the Earthworks or iPrecisionMic from Studio 6 (thought this was only a problem with the Dayton UM low end?)



RickWilson said:


> I'm just buying time until my local guy finally gets his JL Max in hand. He's giving it to me for a few weeks to learn and trial. Let me know what config you end up buying. I may buy something to keep with me. I'd like a good quality single mic set up and interface that can IR/phase measurments. Thinking a Scarlett 2-1-2 and Earthworks M23 Mic would let me do just about anything I wanted to - I think this is what Nick uses for most vehicles if not using an array set up.


You would be hard pressed to beat the bang for the buck than you get from AudioTools by Studio Six. Same back end as SMAART without the automation especially if you are iOS invested. 









‎AudioTools - dB, Sound & Audio


‎AudioTools from Studio Six Digital is a suite of professional-grade audio and acoustic analysis apps. Included in the price of this app is a great collection of professional tools -- SPL, RTA, FFT, Speaker Polarity Test, Generator, Audio Scope, CLF Viewer, and Recorder, and the framework to add...



apps.apple.com





Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## you asked (1 mo ago)

daloudin said:


> Does this hold true even with a Class One mic like the Earthworks or iPrecisionMic from Studio 6 (thought this was only a problem with the Dayton UM low end?)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It doesnt have anything to do with the mic. It has to do with low frequency not being ideal to measure impulse response. I use an earthworks mic btw.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

you asked said:


> It doesnt have anything to do with the mic. It has to do with low frequency not being ideal to measure impulse response. I use an earthworks mic btw.


For those of you that don't like to do math or graduate level courses in FFT and multiple order transfer functions this has to do with the time domain of frequencies.

20Hz = 0.05 seconds from the start of the waveform to the end.
200Hz = 0.005 seconds
2kHz = 0.0005 seconds and so on and so forth

So back to the 20 vs 200 and you see that by the time the 200Hz Wave has fully propagated the 20Hz wave is only 1/10 of the way created.

If you are looking to match the impulse response on REW and you are trying to find the leading edge of the waveform for these two frequencies, you have to wait 10x as long for the 20Hz waveform to start rising before you can actually "see" it rise on the graph. This is because the sample rate of a linear transform takes time to measure the change in amplitude for the rising edge of the impulse since the FFT response is actually a calculated value based on a linear measurement.

This, along with cabin gain and resonant room modes in car audio mean that you may get an IR measurement that's not accurate to the phase response of the system. (My theory on what happened to me in my Auto TA with Helix.) So while Auto TA and IR setup can get you close, that doesn't mean that the phase relationship or even the IR alignment is accurate enough for your ears.









Phase Alignment of Subs – Why I don’t use the impulse response


OK. The saga continues down below………………………. What is the best way to phase align our subwoofers to the mains? There is a hint in the way the que…




bobmccarthy.com







RickWilson said:


> What you consider as reference for "high"? 100 hz? I wanted to try using it again this weekend.


So the answer to this question is that it depends on your response, the level at which you measure and where your cabin gain starts... not really an answer, sorry.


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## Austin_Jim (2 mo ago)

slowride said:


> i stuck the rings on the hdpe mount and not the driver. was using a GB60 at the time and it doesn't have an outer frame to really adhere the ring to. it cound have been the material (hdpe in this case) i was installing the ring on. i added a couple pieces of buytl rope to make them adhere.


Adhesion either happens mechanically or chemically. Tape and the adhesive on the rings are mechanical adhesion. Unfortunately, the manufacturing or packaging preparation process probably introduced some sort of oil to the surface. Therefore limiting the ability of the adhesive to adhere.

TL ; DR - clean with wax/grease remover and/or alcohol and if you want it to really stick, scuff it lightly then clean it.


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm using an older RF class D sub amplifier that has a built in low pass filter of 140Hz. FWIW the auto TA still functions correctly. That does not mean that you are wrong about getting a correct result from a sub. My general impression is that auto TA has usually set a delay on the sub that roughly corresponds to its distance from the listener just like every other speaker. What I've been doing is then setting the sub back to 0 delay, and increasing the delay on my entire front stage until i get the bass up front. I may also use live pink noise on REW to see how it is summing. There have been times in the past where I also used the phase slider on the helix (on the sub) to get it to sum better, this is in addition to playing with the timing. In my GMC I usually seem to get best up front bass when my furthest speaker (ie least delay) is about ~3.5 mS with the sub at zero and Its not that much different in my car (truck has a single 15" firing upwards under the driver side rear seat, car is IB through trunk wall).

What is kind of interesting is the last time I ran auto TA in my truck, it actually delivered sub timing closer to what I just described which was interesting, although with a smaller delta more like 1.7ms ahead of the front stage rather then 3.5. Don't know what was different this time - I still increased it a bit from what it said before I was happy.

here are some tricks I've found for auto TA
1) microphone in Windows settings needs to have volume set to 100% 
2) unlink all speaker pairs on the output screen as well as the timing screen
3) even if your digital routing is correct and you click on "use digital" on the auto ta screen, you still need to have the main "analog" routing sending the primary L/R input signal (channel a/b) routed as if you were using analog inputs
4) delay mode works better than distance mode for me
5) if any speakers are muted they have to be unchecked in the auto ta box - it will fail if it doesn't get a response from any speaker (or can't hear it, or there is too much noise)


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

preston said:


> I'm using an older RF class D sub amplifier that has a built in low pass filter of 140Hz. FWIW the auto TA still functions correctly. That does not mean that you are wrong about getting a correct result from a sub. My general impression is that auto TA has usually set a delay on the sub that roughly corresponds to its distance from the listener just like every other speaker. What I've been doing is then setting the sub back to 0 delay, and increasing the delay on my entire front stage until i get the bass up front. I may also use live pink noise on REW to see how it is summing. There have been times in the past where I also used the phase slider on the helix (on the sub) to get it to sum better, this is in addition to playing with the timing. In my GMC I usually seem to get best up front bass when my furthest speaker (ie least delay) is about ~3.5 mS with the sub at zero and Its not that much different in my car (truck has a single 15" firing upwards under the driver side rear seat, car is IB through trunk wall).
> 
> What is kind of interesting is the last time I ran auto TA in my truck, it actually delivered sub timing closer to what I just described which was interesting, although with a smaller delta more like 1.7ms ahead of the front stage rather then 3.5. Don't know what was different this time - I still increased it a bit from what it said before I was happy.
> 
> ...


definitely A very helpful post and will certainly use the tips during auto TA.

Generally Ive been using tape measure and then group front stage sides (tho I barely ever touch those for imaging). Then use the phase slider on the sub and my ears to adjust for up front bass and then confirm RTA, nothing special. Mostly curious how it looks from a phase perspective.


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## preston (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't know any more than anyone else and less than most, but I've had most success using the phase slider to fix a sub/MD xover nulls on the RTA (and you can hear it sound louder and more fuller obviously when you do that) but the "up front" bass is more a matter of timing. In my truck sub phase is at zero, in my car its like 100 degrees go figure. LIke all these tools you have to use both and they both affect each other.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

preston said:


> I'm using an older RF class D sub amplifier that has a built in low pass filter of 140Hz. FWIW the auto TA still functions correctly. That does not mean that you are wrong about getting a correct result from a sub. My general impression is that auto TA has usually set a delay on the sub that roughly corresponds to its distance from the listener just like every other speaker. What I've been doing is then setting the sub back to 0 delay, and increasing the delay on my entire front stage until i get the bass up front. I may also use live pink noise on REW to see how it is summing. There have been times in the past where I also used the phase slider on the helix (on the sub) to get it to sum better, this is in addition to playing with the timing. In my GMC I usually seem to get best up front bass when my furthest speaker (ie least delay) is about ~3.5 mS with the sub at zero and Its not that much different in my car (truck has a single 15" firing upwards under the driver side rear seat, car is IB through trunk wall).
> 
> What is kind of interesting is the last time I ran auto TA in my truck, it actually delivered sub timing closer to what I just described which was interesting, although with a smaller delta more like 1.7ms ahead of the front stage rather then 3.5. Don't know what was different this time - I still increased it a bit from what it said before I was happy.
> 
> ...


3.5 msec = 285 Hz
1.7 msec = 588 Hz
So if the frequencies you use to compare IR between the sub and the driver in question are that far apart then at 72⁰ F they would sync... we all have differences in the harmonics we equate with different things so everyone has a different sweet spot for the best delay between sub and midbass.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Tackled a very small but time consuming, tedious project - modifying my door baffles to shift them slightly towards the rear of the door.

The Sounds Good Stereo baffles with the shape of 8WMs basket pushes the edge of the baffle into contact of my door cards and has tiny resonances that drive me crazy.

So today was about thickening the baffles enough to gain some clearance for the basket and allow me gain 1/2” or so movement rearwards.

First, got the door cards off and some quick disappointment. Those sound rings aren’t great at all. Improvement on that later.









So then I worked through what final depth I wanted the baffle to be which was 1 3/8”. The existing baffle was 1” HPDE and I was going to use 1/2” pvc to thicken it. So bravely ran the 1” badge through my planer. Not my greatest decision but it worked, with a couple bruises, but my CCF gaskets sealed them up well.










Then I routered out the pvc to match the HPDE one and glued them up before I got some threaded inserts and machine screws to seal them up firmly









Threaded inserts and machine screws.
















Gasketed









And installed and gasketed again for the driver. They extremely secure and air tight









The red line is where the previous baffle was, green is current. Gained about 1/2”









The got the driver re-installed. They never get boring to look at.









Then got the new Resonix CCF strips installed. @Nemesis87 came over as I was getting these on and we had a little collection of 4 different rings, the Resonix foam is the densest by a margin and the easiest to bend and form.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Reaonix strips install continued.

















Then @Nemesis87 came in clutch and helped install some stainless rivnuts and black stainless screws in a few locations to seal my front door cards. I needed a couple cause I’m either got some excess fiber mat or the oem screw points are just worn out at this point from so many door removals.
















Doors feel and sound like a rock.

wanted to get my front wheel wells done but oh well.

we were also able to get an hour or so to listen to the system. @Nemesis87 brought some staging test tracks that had a matching visual guide and ran through a bunch of test tracks. Things staged actually 90-95% as they were presented in the manual which I was pretty happy about (never used any test tracks like this that had written instructions).

Still some tuning to chase but happy where things are trending.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

Where does one get a copy of those tracks and instructions?


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

saltyone said:


> Where does one get a copy of those tracks and instructions?


I have them on a thumb drive but I’ll get them on a Dropbox and scan the manual on Monday and send it over.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

RickWilson said:


> I have them on a thumb drive but I’ll get them on a Dropbox and scan the manual on Monday and send it over.


You da man!! Thanks!


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## Nemesis87 (6 mo ago)

saltyone said:


> Where does one get a copy of those tracks and instructions?


It's the IASCA CD. I haven't actually listened to it fully to see what's on there but when I was ripping it, I noticed some cool tracks that I thought would present well in Rick's truck. There are some tracks in the booklet that have a visual layout of the stage and you kind of follow along to see how well your system defines the stage and all the instruments/voices.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Here you go folks - here is a link to the Dropbox containing the IASCA demo files and booklet. They are AIFF which is an Apple lossless file so I am not sure if folks with Android devices will have trouble but I know I can stream everything from Dropbox on a Windows devices without issue.









IASCA - Official SQ Reference CD and Booklet


Shared with Dropbox




www.dropbox.com





PDF of the booklet is attached here as well.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

Rick, what were those first rings that you didn't like? The pictures of the ResoNix rings on the ResoNix site doesn't do them justice. They look much better and realistic in your photos.


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## Nemesis87 (6 mo ago)

RickWilson said:


> Here you go folks - here is a link to the Dropbox containing the IASCA demo files and booklet. They are AIFF which is an Apple lossless file so I am not sure if folks with Android devices will have trouble but I know I can stream everything from Dropbox on a Windows devices without issue.


Yep, they were ripped in AIFF, which is lossless, uncompressed, and should be more universal than Apple Lossless (ALAC) which is also lossless but compressed and obviously limited to Apple devices. If you need/want it in WAV let me know but you should be good to go on your portable player.


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## Nemesis87 (6 mo ago)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Rick, what were those first rings that you didn't like? The pictures of the ResoNix rings on the ResoNix site doesn't do them justice. They look much better and realistic in your photos.


SoundSkins V3. Maybe they’ll get it right with Version 4, which will probably just be a copy of the ResoNix ones.


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## BobTheBirdTurd (Oct 5, 2020)

Nemesis87 said:


> SoundSkins V3. Maybe they’ll get it right with Version 4, which will probably just be a copy of the ResoNix ones.


Ugh! that's what I was afraid of. I have a brand new set of those ready to go in.


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Nemesis87 said:


> Yep, they were ripped in AIFF, which is lossless, uncompressed, and should be more universal than Apple Lossless (ALAC) which is also lossless but compressed and obviously limited to Apple devices. If you need/want it in WAV let me know but you should be good to go on your portable player.


WAV Files added in SubFolder to DropBox link.


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## Nemesis87 (6 mo ago)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Ugh! that's what I was afraid of. I have a brand new set of those ready to go in.


Want 2 more sets? There’s nothing really wrong with them if they attach to your speaker/bezel well and can fit behind your door panel.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

BobTheBirdTurd said:


> Rick, what were those first rings that you didn't like? The pictures of the ResoNix rings on the ResoNix site doesn't do them justice. They look much better and realistic in your photos.


Those were the SQL audio sound wave rings. If had some larger real estate to adhere to they have held their position better but the Resonix are certainly better in both quality and ease of installation.


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

Nemesis87 said:


> Want 2 more sets? There’s nothing really wrong with them if they attach to your speaker/bezel well and can fit behind your door panel.


And as long as they don’t get damp and start drooping.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

daloudin said:


> WAV Files added in SubFolder to DropBox link.


Ty sir

and @BobTheBirdTurd I wouldn’t get overly concerned using the Soundskins but if time allows you to get the new Resonix strips, I think they are a way better value for $35 vs the $50 soundskins v3 kit.


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## RickWilson (Nov 11, 2021)

Preface - mostly about tuning, learning to become a better listener and getting lost in the weeds.


SkizeR said:


> This is what separates an "oh nice, this is good", to "oh... wow". Measurements are very close to what we hear when done correctly, but at the end of the day, they are unfortunately not the same.


This is from Page 4, a year ago from this thread but for the first time today, it finally hit home.

So today was both exciting and humbling. I did a new tune (bringing my mid and tweet crossover back to LR4 slopes) that I was really, really happy with 4-5 days ago.








Left and right front stage vs final flat tune








Then I added a small high shelf filter that put things where I wanted them








It was cohesive as I've ever gotten it.

The only issues was some small sharpness in my right ear during some high end vocals, snap of some snare drums, upper horn instruments. @Nemesis87 had been experiencing this as well but I had been struggling to find out exactly what frequency and driver was causing the issue. It's annoying as a rattle to have something like this keep sporadically hit my ear on a track. 

I ended up finding a few culprits that really aggravated it:
War Pigs by Black Sabbath - ~1:15, evil minds that plot destructionnnnnnn, where Ozzy holds the end of the word destruction
Bad at Love by Halsey - ~0:15 - 0:30, her voices elevates at the end of every other verse, that rise will cause issue
Morgan James - call my name. Big held Note at 2:05ish hits it @Picassotheimpaler helped analyze this area
Diggin on James brown - the snap of the snare and staccato of the horns together are the worst offenders

I wasn't sure where the culprit was. I kept getting stuck on looking at my measurements and going "it's flat +/- 1 db most everywhere, this is how it should sound", obsessive to a fault with matching a house curve. Not realizing until now that it really should be used a reference point/foundation from which to polish the tune by ear. I assumed it was something in sibilance, like 3k to 8k, so I kept trying some notch filters starting around 3k and working my way up to 7k and nothing really made a difference, I was at a bit of a lost. I also naively assumed it was my tweeters because they were the newest change to system but in reality its been lingering around for some time, back to my Morels.

So I reached to @Picassotheimpaler as I am chasing his mid/tweet sound signature (TBM/3.5WM as well) and he's a super helpful guy and he had helped run through a few things:

So first we took some left and right ear measurements, with each left and right front stages playing.

Left ear









Right ear









I don't think we really noticed much here so dove deeper.

He spectrum analyzed Call My Name by Morgan James and the pain point was actually floating in the 1.6-1.8k range. He had me listen to track at this spot, on the mids only first, then the tweets. First of my guesses proven wrong, it was def coming from my mids.

So then he had me take some near field measurements at both mids @ 1/48 RTA, directly above the cone at the windshield and then directly adjacent at the pillar to try and see what was going on at more granular level.

Left mid - some comb filtering from 500 to 1.2k, I know how to identify it but no idea to treat it. But I didn't think this really wasn't the culprit for the sharpness in my right ear









Right mid - this is where we found some valuable information. Same comb filtering but note the peak @1.6k. This caused by wavelength (1600hz is ~8 inch) bouncing off the windshield and back to the dash (I measured ~4 inches away here) and the reflection creates a summing effect creating a peak. (I still need to tame the major one at 650 but that's for another day)









So Lance had me try a series of notch filters (narrow Q, heavier cut) in the 1500 to 1800 range. Ended settling in on 1650 hz with a Q of ~5.









And man, like 80% of the issue was instantly gone. Instantly taught me that I need to trust my ears more, expand what types of measurements I take and stop being so obsessed with matching an exact curve.

This my old tune (purple) vs my new tune and above 250 hz sounds much better despite the dip at 1.6k. Still more to clean later.









Overall, I have realized though I have been a pretty quick learner behind keyboard and a microphone, my ears and ability to interpret what measurements ACTUALLY mean, need much,much more experience before I can take my truck from a good system to "oh, wow". I know I will get there but today was some needed perspective.

Time to rest my ears for for a few days.


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