# Veritas bodies. Any tricks, tips, etc?



## lsm

I just picked up a set of Aluminum and a set of older Resin Veritas horn bodies and I was wondering if anyone had any tips, tricks, or advise to pass along. 

I noticed that the aluminum bodies are rough cast...is there any advantage to smoothing and buffing the interior? 

The resin bodies are smooth inside the mouth but do no have the flared steps...anything special about these? 

What about mounting configurations? Is there a similar advantage to mounting these as far outward and back towards the firewall as possible? I know that is recommended with ID bodies but not sure if that applies to all the other designs. 

I will be using ID Ultra Motors.


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## lsm

Oops...double post. Mods please delete this one. Thx


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## thehatedguy

I do...but will need to type on a real keyboard.

Haven't forgot the pm either


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## lsm

thehatedguy said:


> I do...but will need to type on a real keyboard.
> 
> Haven't forgot the pm either


Thanks! Looking forward to your reply.


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## thehatedguy

I did do a couple of things to some aluminum Veritas bodies a few years back.

I did port match the adapter to the body. The driver adapters on the 5-6 pairs of these horns that I have either owned or installed had an exit that was (to me) a good deal smaller than the entrance to the horn body. I made a template, got some grinding stones and matched the sizes along with polishing the insides. I don't know if that made any difference or not as I didn't have access to anything more sophisticated than an Audio Control RTA at the time.

The main "flaw" in these horns is the ringing. The mouths make the horns act like bells with a distinct resonance. I tried a couple layers of dynamat extreme on them and it helped some...but still had a pronounced resonance and would ring.

So what can you do to fix the ringing? You could put a divider or a vane down in the mouth down the throat like Illusion did with their horns. And I looked at doing that and it was my back up plan.

Then I remembered a trick that USD did to the horns in the Grand National to stop them from ringing/killing the resonance. They put the body under tension. So I grabbed a clamp and clamped the mouth some...not enough to deform the mouth, but enough to put the metal under tension. Tapped it. Resonance gone. But I couldn't ride around or install a set of horns with a big assed clamp on the mouth.

So what I did was to drill a hole all the way through the edge of the mouth in the "lips" of the horns. Then I got a bolt (like 10/24 thread, a couple of small washers, and three (though 2 would work) nuts. I put the bolt through the hole, put a washer and nut on so the washer was touching the edge of the lip, then put another washer and nut on facing the other lip...takes some time to thread everything so that the bolt will go all the way through with the the other stuff staying in the middle. Then I tightened it up on the bottom. Then I loosened the other side so that I was putting tension on the mouth by opening the mouth so slightly (follow?). Then you could leave off the other nut and washer if you wanted since the whole thing isn't going to move...but I put it on there just incase. Once the edge of the mouth was under some tension, the ringing pretty much stopped.

I suppose you could also just run a bolt through the edge of the mouth and tighten then whole thing down to simulate the clamp...and I don't recall why I didn't do that- been over 8 years since I did this stuff. Some reason I thought opening the mouth worked or would work better than clamping.

Did that and with a layer or two of dynamat extreme (or similar) on the whole outside really worked wonders for making the horn bodies dead.

Don't know about the resin/plastic Veritas horns...never saw any of those in person.


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## thehatedguy

Same thing about placement...as far back and as wide as you can get them.

I guess if you had some money to spend, you could have the whole thing Extrude Honed...that would poilish the insides and match the adapter to the body.


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## lsm

Thanks for the suggestions. Im gonna start the process of smoothing, polishing, and stiffening very soon.


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## Diezel10

thehatedguy said:


> Same thing about placement...as far back and as wide as you can get them.
> 
> I guess if you had some money to spend, you could have the whole thing Extrude Honed...that would poilish the insides and match the adapter to the body.


Who would do something like this? and what is the estimated cost based on your experience?

Thanks - D


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## thehatedguy

Extrude Hone: Abrasive Flow Machining

Don't know the costs.


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## Diezel10

Perfect!!!....reached out to them will wait for a call from them and get this done....appreciate the guidance.

Also do you think that JBL 2118's are the good mid basses to pair up with these?


Thanks, D


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## thehatedguy

Yes sir...would be awesome.


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## Diezel10

thehatedguy said:


> Yes sir...would be awesome.




Noted and will Proceed!!.

I am really taking my time and piecing this together....

I have read countless emails regarding what amps would be best for horns and processing.:blush:

I will apologize in advance, in the ideal world what would you recommend?....I listen from Classical, Progressive, Fusion, Jazz, R&B, RAP, Country, Rock, Metal, Death Metal.


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## riceboyler

As a former Veritas employee (one of about 5 ), let me give you some tips. First, if you can find the equalization network that was sold with the horns, that would be very helpful. We realized early on that with both the aluminum horns and the composite horns, there was a serious issue with accentuation of some of the upper midrange (kind of typical for horns in general, but really bad with the aluminum).

If you can't find that little black box, spend some time with a good RTA to smooth out the curve and then build it back to how you like it to sound. 

Next, with the throat on the resin ones, you'll notice that the shape is slightly different, in that the throat radius is a little larger and smoother than the aluminum body. This not only helped with increasing the stage width out of the box, it helped to attenuate some of the harshness. I had a set of the composites in my car for a couple of years with Altec drivers and they sounded phenomenal. Stage width was amazing, and they did a great job overall. To be fair the cheaper drivers that were sold with the cheapest set of horns were crap.

So, if you can figure out a way to polish out that specific area around the throat of the driver, you should see a little smoother sound, a bit less "horniness" and an overall wider stage. As far as polishing otherwise, we honestly saw no difference in sound between the rough cast and the polished sets (we had a few prototypes polished as they were produced at Virginia MetalCrafters just down the road from the Veritas headquarters, so it was easy to request). YMMV

Good luck. They take quite a bit of time to work out. They're anything but plug and play, but when done right, they're awesome.


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## lsm

Wow thanks for the info! I have a set of both the resin and aluminum bodies but honestly didn't know the difference or which came first...that was so long ago and my brain is getting old... I just polished the mouths on the aluminum bodies and installed them yesterday, sounds like Im at least going in the right direction. Ill try to post a few pics tomorrow PhotoBucket isn't working...



riceboyler said:


> As a former Veritas employee (one of about 5 ), let me give you some tips. First, if you can find the equalization network that was sold with the horns, that would be very helpful. We realized early on that with both the aluminum horns and the composite horns, there was a serious issue with accentuation of some of the upper midrange (kind of typical for horns in general, but really bad with the aluminum).
> 
> If you can't find that little black box, spend some time with a good RTA to smooth out the curve and then build it back to how you like it to sound.
> 
> Next, with the throat on the resin ones, you'll notice that the shape is slightly different, in that the throat radius is a little larger and smoother than the aluminum body. This not only helped with increasing the stage width out of the box, it helped to attenuate some of the harshness. I had a set of the composites in my car for a couple of years with Altec drivers and they sounded phenomenal. Stage width was amazing, and they did a great job overall. To be fair the cheaper drivers that were sold with the cheapest set of horns were crap.
> 
> So, if you can figure out a way to polish out that specific area around the throat of the driver, you should see a little smoother sound, a bit less "horniness" and an overall wider stage. As far as polishing otherwise, we honestly saw no difference in sound between the rough cast and the polished sets (we had a few prototypes polished as they were produced at Virginia MetalCrafters just down the road from the Veritas headquarters, so it was easy to request). YMMV
> 
> Good luck. They take quite a bit of time to work out. They're anything but plug and play, but when done right, they're awesome.


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## Diezel10

Finally!!!!!!! I was wondering when "one of you" would chime in...can you please ID these for me..to my understanding these are radian drivers?







riceboyler said:


> As a former Veritas employee (one of about 5 ), let me give you some tips. First, if you can find the equalization network that was sold with the horns, that would be very helpful. We realized early on that with both the aluminum horns and the composite horns, there was a serious issue with accentuation of some of the upper midrange (kind of typical for horns in general, but really bad with the aluminum).
> 
> If you can't find that little black box, spend some time with a good RTA to smooth out the curve and then build it back to how you like it to sound.
> 
> Next, with the throat on the resin ones, you'll notice that the shape is slightly different, in that the throat radius is a little larger and smoother than the aluminum body. This not only helped with increasing the stage width out of the box, it helped to attenuate some of the harshness. I had a set of the composites in my car for a couple of years with Altec drivers and they sounded phenomenal. Stage width was amazing, and they did a great job overall. To be fair the cheaper drivers that were sold with the cheapest set of horns were crap.
> 
> So, if you can figure out a way to polish out that specific area around the throat of the driver, you should see a little smoother sound, a bit less "horniness" and an overall wider stage. As far as polishing otherwise, we honestly saw no difference in sound between the rough cast and the polished sets (we had a few prototypes polished as they were produced at Virginia MetalCrafters just down the road from the Veritas headquarters, so it was easy to request). YMMV
> 
> Good luck. They take quite a bit of time to work out. They're anything but plug and play, but when done right, they're awesome.


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## riceboyler

75-VDs, if I remember correctly, were actually rebadged Altecs, but we sold so few of the 75s, I don't remember exactly. I can tell you though that I don't remember us ever rebadging Radians. The 66s were JBLs, the 55s were EVs, I don't remember what the 45s were either.

The 75s were actually what I had on the back of my composite horns, and they are an outstanding driver.


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## Diezel10

I Appreciate your reply....Man!! I am about to embark on a journey I plan to install these onto an 06 dodge megacab....6 spd...so clutch pedal is in the way...I am going to have to fabricate a new clutch pedal from what I am observing.....:mean:


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## Diezel10

So If I wanted to rebuild these what part number would I utilize?

Thank you

D



riceboyler said:


> 75-VDs, if I remember correctly, were actually rebadged Altecs, but we sold so few of the 75s, I don't remember exactly. I can tell you though that I don't remember us ever rebadging Radians. The 66s were JBLs, the 55s were EVs, I don't remember what the 45s were either.
> 
> The 75s were actually what I had on the back of my composite horns, and they are an outstanding driver.


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## lsm

Heres the pics


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## riceboyler

Diezel10 said:


> So If I wanted to rebuild these what part number would I utilize?
> 
> Thank you
> 
> D


Oh wow, I honestly have absolutely no idea. It's been 15 years, (and 3 kids ago), so I'm lucky to remember that we even made horns! 

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what to tell you about the rebuild on those drivers. I can tell you that there are better vintage compression drivers out there, so you might see what you can find that route.



lsm said:


> Heres the pics


That's a beautiful install, far better than what I did in my own car. I lent my horns to a shop owner about 12 years ago in Murfreesboro, TN and he disappeared with them. Wish I could get them back...


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## lsm

Thanks for the compliment! I've been dreaming about this install for 20+ years and have been working on it for over a year. I can't wait to hear these horns in action!

BTW which horns are you looking for?


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## Diezel10

:inquisitive:I second that ........BEAUTIFUL:tongue2: Man those are so well tucked......



riceboyler said:


> Oh wow, I honestly have absolutely no idea. It's been 15 years, (and 3 kids ago), so I'm lucky to remember that we even made horns!
> 
> Unfortunately, I'm not sure what to tell you about the rebuild on those drivers. I can tell you that there are better vintage compression drivers out there, so you might see what you can find that route.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a beautiful install, far better than what I did in my own car. I lent my horns to a shop owner about 12 years ago in Murfreesboro, TN and he disappeared with them. Wish I could get them back...


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## thehatedguy

I have the schematic for the EQ circuit.

What were the coaxes you guys sold? I was thinking they were Radians.


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## lsm

thehatedguy said:


> I have the schematic for the EQ circuit.
> 
> What were the coaxes you guys sold? I was thinking they were Radians.


Would you be willing to share your info? Id like to at least build one and give it a try. Thx


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## thehatedguy

Trying to find it...thought it was attached somewhere. I know Todd (highly) has measured the transfer function of the one Mic has-had used.

It's a 4 resistor network with them in series/parallel. One resistor can be changed to match the input impedance of your amp.

If it's not posted here before the weekend, I will post it up.


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## lsm

Any chance someone can answer to some of the rumors I've heard over the years?

Richard Clark & Dave Navone were involved in the design of the Veritas horn bodies. If so which style?

The horns are designated for Left & Right placement. I haven't found any indication on either of mine...

Resin or Aluminum bodies: which came first? 

The aluminum bodies have a "metallic ring" sound.

Dampening the aluminum bodies makes a noticeable difference (Im thinking yes)

Porting & Polishing the aluminum bodies makes them sound better...kinda answered that above, at least partially

Veritas sound better (when tuned properly) vs other similar brands. If thats true what makes them better?

If I think of any more Ill add them to the thread. Thx!


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## thehatedguy

The Veritas horns were designed by a guy that worked at Bell Labs. The AS2K guys started selling and recommending the Veritas horns early on after their "house" brand horns didn't come to market...that's what I infered from the AS2K Tech Briefs back in the day.

There was no left or right from what I remember. The good thing they did that ID didn't do was give you the option of being able to mount each driver on top of or below the horn. Which USD didn't do at the time either...their later rotomount solved that (but created a new problem).

Metal came first.

They did ring when taped.

The damping made a difference to me.

Porting and polishing...dunno, didn't have the ability to measure things at the time, but had the tools and time to do it.

A lot of my old co-workers thought the Veritas had more snap and impact than the ID horns. Though no data to really support that. The Veritas in the horn shootout in the magazine back in the day won best uneqed sound, ID won best EQed sound. AS far as the mechanics of that...I would have to differ to someone more knowledgable than me about that.


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## Diezel10

The wealth of knowledge on this board is profound!!!! I am really enjoying reading all of this....I am still going after the extruding and polishing of these horns.

Any tips on the Drivers I should go after?....I have my JBL 2118's...I was contemplating on the PPI Pro Audio 10's or even the the Dynaudio 10's in an 06' Dodge Ram?


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## lsm

Agreed! Thanks for the info!!


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## Blown Mustang GT

I remember reading somewhere, Mark Eldridge liked the Veritas bodies over every other option. I think it may have been on the audiogroup forum, but I don't recall exactly.


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## Blown Mustang GT

I found it! Here is the direct quote.

"I've found that I've been able to achieve the best results with the Veritas horns. 

I am a big fan of compression drivers and horns because they provide a level of dynamic capability and realism beyond what a conventional driver can, IMO.

I'd recommend the Veritas horns, but use a better driver attached if you can afford it. The TAD-2002 would be the top choice, but at $800 each or so, it's kind of pricey."

This was a reply to a post asking which horns to choose:
1. Illusion Audio ch-1s
2. USD a-700
3. Veritas CW4-44VD (the topof the line).


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## thehatedguy

Which drivers are you talking about?

If you can fit them, the BMS 4550 that are for sale on the forum are some of the best of the best in terms of compression drivers. TADs are great, but BIG and EXPENSIVE.

Truexent is coming out with Be diaphrams for 1" JBL/Radian drivers this year. A used set of Radian 475s with those diaphrams would be super sweet...again a lot of money for the diaphrams.


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## thehatedguy

And I forgot the schematic for the Veritas filter...I will find it and post it up by the weekend- just moved and forgot where it is at, it's not where I thought it was at .


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## lsm

How do the BMS 4550's compare to ES Ultra's?


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## Mic10is

thehatedguy said:


> And I forgot the schematic for the Veritas filter...I will find it and post it up by the weekend- just moved and forgot where it is at, it's not where I thought it was at .


Me to the rescue!!!!!!!!!!!!











This is the secret to many of the top sounding Horn cars including mine every year its won finals or a major show


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## lsm

Mic10is said:


> Me to the rescue!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the secret to many of the top sounding Horn cars including mine every year its won finals or a major show


WOW Thanks!!!


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## Mic10is

Basically what it does is very similar to what the HORN EQ filter does on many pro audio EQs and crossovers.
It will attenuate 1.2khz and up or so by about 6db and then apply a rising slope upward to 20khz

or at least one version of the filter I have did this...lol


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## thehatedguy

That's the one!


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## minbari

thats funny, that is almost exactly the curve I have on my eq.


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## thehatedguy

Try that line level circuit if you have a chance.


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## lsm

lsm said:


> How do the BMS 4550's compare to ES Ultra's?


What do you guys think? Worth the investment vs the Ultras?


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## thehatedguy

They are different. The BMS would have a better midrange and the Ultras would have more topend. I have the Ultras, but if I had the money, I would get the BMS...I have always liked a mylar/polyester diaphragm better than titanium. But that might just be me.

And for what the seller is wanting for the 4550s here, they are a steal.


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## Diezel10

What about Beryllium Diaphragm?


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## thehatedguy

The best.


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## lsm

Ive been pondering getting a set of JBL2426's for the last year... Would I be better off picking up the BMS' or saving up for the JBL's?


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## thehatedguy

I would go for the BMS...unless you are planning on forking over another $1000 for the Be diaphrams when they come out for the Radian/JBL 1" drivers.

Plus those JBL drivers are pretty massive in size.


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## lsm

thehatedguy said:


> I would go for the BMS...unless you are planning on forking over another $1000 for the Be diaphrams when they come out for the Radian/JBL 1" drivers.
> 
> Plus those JBL drivers are pretty massive in size.


I cant deny being a fanatic but thats a little bit too much for me. Maybe a few years down the road but not anytime soon... Thx for your input!

Looks like my Ultra motors are going up for sale today.


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## Eric Stevens

lsm said:


> I cant deny being a fanatic but thats a little bit too much for me. Maybe a few years down the road but not anytime soon... Thx for your input!
> 
> Looks like my Ultra motors are going up for sale today.


I think you might want to wait and compare the BMS to the Ultra directly with a simple AB comparison outside the car. I would like to get the feedback of the direct difference also. 

I tested the BMS many moons ago and overall the old CD2 Comps were the winner in a direct side by side AB test. Last time I heard the BMS was on Edgarhorn tratrix horn with the large coax BMS andcompared to a JBL that was normally used with a super tweeter the JBL and supertweeter won out there also. With the Edgarhorn, it was small differences and I don't remember what they were other than the separate Fane super tweeter was better. With the CD2 it was the midrange that was better, my thought was the BMS is in effect a ring radiator and had less displacement than a dome and didnt do as well below 1500 Hz.

I like to do my listening test to compare compression drivers outside the car listening to just the horns with something like rebecca pigeon or other good female vocal and also listen to other revelaing upper midrange and high frequency recordings. No EQ no midbass and it wont sound good on either but it makes the problem areas stand out light a bright glaring light.

And BTW the above is a good way to compare horns so while your at it you can compare the Veritas to Stevens horn bodies.

Eric


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## lsm

Eric Stevens said:


> I think you might want to wait and compare the BMS to the Ultra directly with a simple AB comparison outside the car. I would like to get the feedback of the direct difference also.
> 
> I tested the BMS many moons ago and overall the old CD2 Comps were the winner in a direct side by side AB test. Last time I heard the BMS was on Edgarhorn tratrix horn with the large coax BMS andcompared to a JBL that was normally used with a super tweeter the JBL and supertweeter won out there also. With the Edgarhorn, it was small differences and I don't remember what they were other than the separate Fane super tweeter was better. With the CD2 it was the midrange that was better, my thought was the BMS is in effect a ring radiator and had less displacement than a dome and didnt do as well below 1500 Hz.
> 
> I like to do my listening test to compare compression drivers outside the car listening to just the horns with something like rebecca pigeon or other good female vocal and also listen to other revelaing upper midrange and high frequency recordings. No EQ no midbass and it wont sound good on either but it makes the problem areas stand out light a bright glaring light.
> 
> And BTW the above is a good way to compare horns so while your at it you can compare the Veritas to Stevens horn bodies.
> 
> Eric


I think thats a great idea! Everyone has different taste and your products have always been a great match for my ears. I have several different horn bodies, motors, etc so I will be setting up a test bench and doing some serious listening tests. I want to do this right the first time! Thx for bringing me back to center Eric.


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## thehatedguy

the ultra drivers are nice drivers. you might like them better.


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## Diezel10

lsm said:


> I think thats a great idea! Everyone has different taste and your products have always been a great match for my ears. I have several different horn bodies, motors, etc so I will be setting up a test bench and doing some serious listening tests. I want to do this right the first time! *Thx for bringing me back to center Eric*.


Love that!!! ...."Back to Center"

It seems that I have also gotten caught up.....I will also follow thru with your suggestions Eric....I also have ALl fo your horns mini's and Full with ID Motors 

and I have the USDs Roto-Mount

and the Veritas Aluminum V75

and TAD 2002 Motors (Flea-Bay, Specials)

.....wife has had it....and I haven't done a single thing except research and add more to my confusion.


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## Eric Stevens

On used compression drivers or a new one that has been floating around outside a sealed plastic baggy, I suggest cleaning the compression driver gaps and doing a rub and buzz test on them with or without a horn to get all drivers on equal ground and nothing coloring the sound. A tone generator is perfect for doing this and some even have enough voltage output to do the test without an amp.

To clean the gap use some masking tape and fold it over for two sticky sides out and drag through the voice coil gap. 

While you are at it you can do a visual inspection of the diaphragms for anything out of place.

Eric


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## Diezel10

Got it Eric, wow!...um.....I am going to have to get a visual on that for fear of damaging anything.


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## Eric Stevens

Its actually pretty easy. Remove the diaphragm assembly from the driver in your case set the expensive beryllium dome very carefully where it cant get damaged. Fold over some masking tape so it is sticky on two sides, and fills up the whole width of the voice coil gap. Drag the masking tape through the gap and switch to a new section of tape until no more residue is removed.

Since the particles in the gap are held there by the flux in the gap compressed air is worthless it only moves the particles around. something sticky can remove them.

Eric


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## Diezel10

Eric, a Dumb question; how would you play a horn without damaging it?

I though that if you powered up a horn without a crossover you would damage it?


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## Eric Stevens

Diezel10 said:


> Eric, a Dumb question; how would you play a horn without damaging it?
> 
> I though that if you powered up a horn without a crossover you would damage it?


Not a dumb Q at all.

Remember that at 1 watt you would be 110 dB and we only need to get to 90 dB so the power is very low and wont damage the driver at all.

I have done this test with TAD2001 and many other drivers over the years and never have I damaged a diaphragm. 

Eric


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## Diezel10

Noted, Thank you


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## minbari

Eric Stevens said:


> Not a dumb Q at all.
> 
> Remember that at 1 watt you would be 110 dB and we only need to get to 90 dB so the power is very low and wont damage the driver at all.
> 
> I have done this test with TAD2001 and many other drivers over the years and never have I damaged a diaphragm.
> 
> Eric


I have played my CD1e full range for a few minutes with no damage, just to test them. they wont instantly go up in smoke, just dont push the volume at all.


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## lsm

Started building a test bench last night should be ready to go on Sunday. Anxious to get started!


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## thehatedguy

Eric has linked the magazine shootout between the 4 major horn guys back in the day...maybe there was 5 in that test.

I don't think the USD horns are any more "soft" of a material than the other urethane bodies. Their problem lies in how the roto-mount enters the horn...and I think the horn design isn't well thought out.

You could use a regular dome...but they would not really have the motor strength to combat the air load placed on them to have really great upper end.

Plus the compression driver has much lower distortion, and has the right (or more right depending on the driver) wave front to work on a horn.

FWIW, I tried a set of NX30s on minihorns back in the day...it was ok, but the compression drivers were better.


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## thehatedguy

You can't do that. To make a horn smaller, you have to make a couple of choices- to shorten the horn up, you would have to use a larger driver. A horn is an area progression down the throat, the smaller the driver, the closer to 0 you start...which is further away from the mouth.

To make the mouth area smaller, you can raise the Fc of the horn or corner/boundary reinforce the horn which would allow you to possibly intentionally undersize the mouth to some degree- but you normally see that in the home world on midbass horns only.

But what you've essentially described is the minihorns Eric came up with.

You can use a rock to knock nails in and a butterknife as a screwdriver too...and while each on works and does the job, there are other tools that get you there with better results.


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## thehatedguy

You could probably do that with a waveguide, but not with a horn.

The thing about sticking them up there in the dash is you would want a smooth transition from the initial waveguide to the windshield. But the geometry of the waveguide dictates the dispersion characteristics...you would have 2 good sides- the dash and the glass, but the other sides might be problematic with the sides facing the center of the car being the most problematic.

The minis were out in about 97-98, so the only real custom ones floating around heavy in competition were the ones Mark Elridge was using in his 4 Runner. There were others that tried various commercial horns up in the dash, but they never really worked right. And there were some who rebuilt their dashes to make large horns, but they never really worked as well for competition as the ones under the dash did.


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## thehatedguy

Oh, and when using cone type speakers on a horn...you really want a proper sized back chamber for the reactance nulling to take place properly. This will let you play the speaker to the lowest limits of the horn. Usually they are pretty small...which is good for something like this.

Also the thing about putting them high on the dash is usually the corners of the dash is narrower than down low under the dash...so width could suffer, especially if you have to start pushing the drivers further inside of the car.


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## Eric Stevens

With horns there is no free lunch to be had. Bandwidth on the bottom end is not controlled by the driver it is a function of the mouth area and flare rate. Reduce the mouth size and it must be crossed over higher. 

With even the full size horns I am at the minimum mouth size to get decent results in the intended band range, playing around with flare rate versus mouth size and flare type are ways of tweaking the horns response characteristics.

A 1" dome tweeter can work OK on a smaller horn but they will never have the motor necessary to have good top end on the horn, if they have enough motor to play high on a horn they will lack bottom end, then you can put them on a larger horn bringing up the bottom end and increasing the useable bandwidth but you havent saved any size.

Round and round we go on the wheel of engineering decisions, where will I decide to make my trade offs for best overall performance.

Eric


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## lsm

Ill be back out in the shop tomorrow...been working a lot and haven't had much time.


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## jpeezy

as far as smaller drivers and better fit, has anyone tried the new neo celestion drivers,they are ridiculously tiny.I think mr. batemen has played around with them.just saying. Eric, when are we going to see at least a web store for Stevens Audio?


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## Patrick Bateman

cajunner said:


> I've read where Eric's full bodies beat out the Veritas and the USD Roto-mounts, on spectral plots where there was some unique test data, don't remember where though...
> 
> looking forward to another horn side by side look, more data on the horns the better.
> 
> In general, I think the idea that frequencies out of the range of the flexible USD bodies, are rendered inaudible and won't color the sound, is probably not altogether true.
> 
> Everyone seems to add damping mass to their horn bodies, no matter if they're 1/2" thick urethane or aluminum, much less the soft plastic of the Roto-mounts.
> 
> if anyone has successfully mated a reasonable dome-type tweeter (non-compression based) to a car-audio full body horn, that would be fun to read about.
> 
> I see people do this with econo-wave EOS and tractrix, why not with the easy fit button where it would be so awesome?
> 
> I wouldn't need all the power that CD delivery has going for it, if it makes horns possible in some tight spots using the dome-fits.
> 
> easier level matching, controlled directivity and all the other good stuff, along with a tiny motor driver might make selling the horn concept a lot easier.
> 
> 
> especially if one were able to .66 the full bodies, like the mini bodies, except lighter and easier to mount too, with the an optimized dome driving the guides.


I've messed around with dome tweeters on waveguides and horns, but it's a difficult thing to get right. Off the top of my head, here are a few reasons why it's hard to get it to work:

1) The biggest problem, by far, is the last octave. 20khz is 1.7cm long. To get two radiators to 'sum' in phase, they need to be about 1/4 wavelength apart OR LESS. So when you put a 2.5cm dome onto a waveguide or horn, the sound radiating from one side of the dome is out phase with the sound radiating from the tip of the dome! So without a phase plug, you get all types of comb filtering in the last octave, and sometime down to 5khz.
2) The reason that companies like JBL and Mackie can use dome tweeters on waveguides is simple; the waveguides are so big, the wavefront can quickly expand spherically. Basically *the narrower the walls of the horn are, the more you need a phase plug.*
3) If you take apart drivers like the Celestion CDX1-1425, you'll notice that is' basically a dome tweeter with a really simple phase plug. The reason that the phase plug is so basic is that the dome is so small. The CDX1-1425 has a radiator that's half the size of the typical compression driver.

IMHO, there's a couple ways you can put a dome on a horn, besides the methods that JBL and Mackie use. The first method is to make the horn so small, the wavelengths can't even form. The VTC Paraline is a good example of this. The horn is a fraction of an inch in height; due to that, you can probably get away without a phase plug.

The other option is the one I've been screwing around with lately, which is the lens that Beolab licenses from S.A.W. This lens basically scatters the high frequencies the second (or fraction of a second) that the wave radiates off of the dome. It's almost like a three dimensional phase plug.

I have a thread over on diyaudio called '28 days later' where I'm building some car audio 'horns' that use this lens.

If you really want to go nuts with this stuff, there are a lot of interesting phase plug patents out there.


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## Diezel10

Veritas AW1.75VD with Berryllium Diaphragms....so it begins 3 weeks in and this is what has taken place....

1st it's a 2006 Dodge Megacab 6 speed, 1500 sqf raamat the entire interior was gutted took out the dash, everything.....so upon installing these horns the emergency brake had to be modified......emergency brake moved left as much as possible.

So what you see is a mock up the horns....That is a big driver (6.5" in Circumference)


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## lsm

My test bench is all set up finally...I'm about to go out there now and listen to the Ultra's mounted on the various horn bodies I have. For now I only have the Ultra motors (other than a bunch of Motorola's) so I'll just be comparing the various body designs.


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## lsm




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## Diezel10

Man...that Milbert Amp is just so sexy!!!...very nice setup.....one day....one day.


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## lsm

Diezel10 said:


> Man...that Milbert Amp is just so sexy!!!...very nice setup.....one day....one day.


Thank you! Took me 20+ years to get mine...


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## Diezel10

I missed one on ebay for $1935 I was so mad at myself......yeah going on 20 years myself.


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## lsm

I listened to the ES large bodies and the Veritas resin bodies for a few hours tonight. There was a much bigger difference than I expected. I didn't know if doing this on a bench vs in the car would actually prove anything...but I figured it couldn't hurt. 

I'm not an expert buy any means so don't take this as a review, it's more like an experiment. If any of the experts here on the forum have suggestions or feedback please pass it on...I'm here to learn. 

I listened to Tori Amos, Dire Straights, Supertramp and an IASCA test disc. Basically I just picked what I liked and had spent a lot of time listening to over the years. 

I played the horns full-range. No Crossovers, time alignment, etc... I laid them flat on my work bench and spaced them 13" apart because that's the width of my console.


Here's a copy of my notes from last night:

Image Dynamics Big Bodies

IASCA Test Disc

Track 12

Horns in phase pulls left
Right horn out of phase very well centered

Track 14
Sounds good but still pulls hard left and sounds a little bit shrill but nothing an EQ couldn't take of. 

Tori Amos
Right horn out of phase

Track 8 
Wide and open. Well outside corners. Positions multiple voice levels very well. Lots of fine details in the right side. 

Track 9
Layers are amazing!

Supertramp
Right horn out of phase

Track 7
Pulls left
Flipped left driver out of phase no difference

Flipped both in phase sound is better but voice, and piano stills pulls left hard. Right almost sounds like its turned off...

Veritas Resin Bodies

Instantly sound less shrill and they're able to play lower with a much deeper tone. Can handle more volume without distorting

Horns in phase pulls a tiny bit left
Right horn out of phase much more centered

IASCA Test Disc

Track 12
Pretty well centered 

Track 14 sounds great overall. Horns sound damn good

Track 15
Not the greatest still sounds shrill...

Track 38 (my favorite)
Sounds pretty good. Nice balance

Tori Amos

Track 8 
Sounds very similar to the ID really nice detail. 

Track 9 
Just Wow...

Supertramp

Track 9
Sat through the whole song and it sounds pretty good. Much more laid back and sounds pretty even overall. 

At this point I just started flipping through CD's. They definitely need some tuning but overall can play just about anything I pop in. Nice


I'm out in the shop now getting ready to hook up the Veritas Aluminum Bodies. Ill be testing these and the mini's today.


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## Eric Stevens

Scott,

Listen to the same set of drivers on each horn body to compare horns, and use the same set of horns with different drivers to compare drivers. 

Some of your comments sound like there is a problem with one of the drivers with the Ultras shouldnt pull to one side if out of phase but collapse to the left and right and center properly when in phase. If it's pulling to one side you should clean and inspect them.

I would really worry about analyzing imaging and staging out of the car but concentrate more on the tonality with the understanding that with out a mid bass driver everything will sound hollow and thin.

Eric


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## lsm

Eric Stevens said:


> Scott,
> 
> Listen to the same set of drivers on each horn body to compare horns, and use the same set of horns with different drivers to compare drivers.
> 
> Some of your comments sound like there is a problem with one of the drivers with the Ultras shouldnt pull to one side if out of phase but collapse to the left and right and center properly when in phase. If it's pulling to one side you should clean and inspect them.
> 
> I would really worry about analyzing imaging and staging out of the car but concentrate more on the tonality with the understanding that with out a mid bass driver everything will sound hollow and thin.
> 
> Eric


Hi Eric- I was hoping you'd chime in. 

I've been using the same Ultra's on all the bodies so we're good there. I don't have any other drivers other than a bunch of Motorola's so I can't do any real driver comparisons. I already know the Ultra's are better than everything else I have. I would like to listen to some large format drivers but that's more curiosity than anything. I'm very happy with the Ultra's. 

I have had these drivers for several years as you know so I will check their condition and clean them if needed. 

I'm not really worried about staging or imaging being that I'm doing this on my bench, more than anything I'm just playing around... That's why I said what I said above because I don't want anyone to change out or pass on your horn bodies because after using them for 20 years I know what they're capable of 

After listening to the Verita's it sounds to me like they were built to be bolted in and used as is without any EQ's, etc. Not a bad thing but it makes me wonder if the design leaves a lot of room for improvement. 

I will say one thing without a doubt...just hearing the horns playing again after so long has motivated me to work a little harder on the car.


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## Diezel10

Scott thanks for taking the time to "review" and provide feedback......If I'd known you were going to do this I would have lent you those large format drivers from the Veritas but too late now...they've been installed.....I have got to try that IASCA Disc you mentioned.

Alex


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## lsm

Diezel10 said:


> Scott thanks for taking the time to "review" and provide feedback......If I'd known you were going to do this I would have lent you those large format drivers from the Veritas but too late now...they've been installed.....I have got to try that IASCA Disc you mentioned.
> 
> Alex


I still have more testing I want to do so I'm leaving everything hooked up for now. I want to try some large format drivers like you mentioned so I'm on the hunt. Thanks for the offer, if I had done this earlier that would have been great. Now that work has slowed down I'll have much more free time to play around but along with that comes less money to buy toys...lol 

If there's anyone in the Chicago area that wants to give these a listen or that has other drivers to compare PM me and we can come up with a plan.


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## lsm

Diezel10 said:


> I missed one on ebay for $1935 I was so mad at myself......yeah going on 20 years myself.


Give Michael a call direct. He usually has used amps available that he has gone through and which are guaranteed to work as designed. You might also want to talk to him about the new "Liquid" amp. He told me a while back that it's basically a re-worked BaM 230 and is much more affordable. 

If you're anything like me the wait just made it that much sweeter when the UPS guy brought mine. My wife even took pics of me opening the box


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## Diezel10

FYI is appreciated....I will probably put my self thru the paces just like you did...I'll wait until it comes up, it is much sweeter.


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## lsm

Final verdict: Mini Horns it is! God I love the way these sound...anybody wanna buy some horn bodies? lol


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## SQram

Interesting choice! What made up your mind?

I'm curious what you thought of the Illusion bodies as well...


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## Diezel10

Mini's who of thought.


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## lsm

SQram said:


> Interesting choice! What made up your mind?
> 
> I'm curious what you thought of the Illusion bodies as well...


As soon as I fired them up I remembered why I love horns so much. They may not play as low but god do they sound good. I had the big bodies in my car in the summer of 2011 but they just didn't have that sparkle that I loved so much. My old S10 had Minis in it and that stereo was so dynamic it was unreal...I won a lot of USAC events with that truck. 

I liked the Veritas a lot, especially the resin bodies, but they both had a smooth sound to my ears. The Aluminum bodies seemed more laid back vs the others. 

There's another reason too but I want to see if I can make it work before I spill it... Work has slowed down big time so I actually have some free time. My schedule at work is set up for 9 hour days so we get every other Friday off; Today is the first one I've got all year and it feels good! 

Back to work


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