# Are tweeters even necessary?



## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

So the traditional 2-way setup is a 6.5 and a tweeter. Often the 6.5 doesn't dig deep enough to blend with the subs and the tweeters need to be attenuated cause they are too bright. 

Many people are fitting larger drivers in the doors such as 8"s and 10"s to compensate for the lack of midbass. Then, so as to not run the midbass woofers so high they are running 3-way set ups. Then you have the few who stay 2-way and run wide band drivers. 

Could an 8" plus a couple wide band drivers be a more efficient 2-way setup? 

With the introduction of good wide band drivers such as the Aura whispers or the 
Audible Physics xr3m are tweeters even a necessity for a decent SQ system anymore? 

What are some other good wide band drivers that could take the place of tweeters?


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Depends from the vehicle and how much are you willing to compromise.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Mless5 said:


> Depends from the vehicle and how much are you willing to compromise.


So you think any 2-way setup will either sacrifice midbass or highs?


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Depending upon install and location you could have some very harsh peaks that make the wide banders difficult to tame.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Lowther-like?


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

Fricasseekid said:


> So you think any 2-way setup will either sacrifice midbass or highs?


Yes. Given all the factors, something has got to give. IMO, you mids will not play high orlow enough, your tweeter may not play low enough.
You compromise a bit less in a 3 way in terms of high and low end, but you can also make matters worse.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

chefhow said:


> Depending upon install and location you could have some very harsh peaks that make the wide banders difficult to tame.


Are there a few wide banders that still keep their composure and have relatively smooth response in the upper range?


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## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

Ran L3SE'S as widebanders with success, they do a pretty good job and for everyday listening, only on some tracks I may have noticed a little sparkle missing...sold them recently...and I miss them already


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> your average Lowther is an 8" paper cone with whizzer, and a 6X9 is approximately equal to an 8" driver, so....
> 
> 
> Lowther-like, Lowther-type, Lowther-comparable...


K. Didn't know that was a real term. I have a lot to learn about what goes into the top end of a good SQ system. 
Sorry if this topic is beat to death. 

Don't 6x9s have different beaming patterns on the narrow side so can be used more efficiently?


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

I experimented with 2" wideband drivers for roughly a year, with and without tweeters. I only had them up on the dash during that time aimed as close to on-axis to me as possible. These were not mounted in your typical fiberglass manner or factory locations but rather they were in pods attached with velcro to my dash pad. The treble was there but it was quite laid back on the top end. At high volume it was just not enough for my tastes, given how much metal I listen to. If I were happy with a very laid back conversation-level of output they would have been fine, but that ain't how I roll when I'm traveling alone. The drivers are the CDT ES-02s. I use them as midranges now from 1 kHz to 6 kHz. Love those as mids.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Well that's disappointing. I'm really trying to avoid going 3 way in my daily driver. I'm in the car about 1 1/2 hours every day but really don't want to build pillars.


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## Sound Suggestions (Dec 5, 2010)

Search out Audible Physics for the NzA Duo (Nz3-A/AT and Arian) that may be a solution for you.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Sound Suggestions said:


> Search out Audible Physics for the NzA Duo (Nz3-A/AT and Arian) that may be a solution for you.


I don't think anything from audible physics would be a goo option for me cause I'm poor.


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

Another option is to cross your sub and mids higher rather than lower. Level match between the two different drivers, apply time alignment and EQ as desired, and you have tons of midbass up front. Before I went to the MS-8 I had been bumping up the sub as high as 125 Hz with a 24 dB slope. I took care of 99% of the audible rattles from the rear and I had kick drum bass beating me up if I wanted it and the mids didn't break a sweat trying to work too hard. Bass guitar also got a lot more clear and defined.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

So something like this:
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/fountek-fr89ex-3-full-range-4-ohm/

paired with this:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=264-1102

Might be a good start?


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## audiguy (Jul 30, 2007)

I used the Thiel conincendental drivers in the kicks with Dyn 8's and they were great. The Thiels ran from 300 to 30k and and Dyns from 40 to 300.


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

cajunner said:


> Fountek, not too bad..


Indeed, not to bad at all. Go see what zaphaudio thinks about them.



Fricasseekid said:


> So something like this:
> http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/fountek-fr89ex-3-full-range-4-ohm/
> 
> paired with this:
> ...


Yes, good-to-great start. Check out my front stage listed in my signature.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Fricasseekid said:


> So something like this:
> http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-3-fullrange/fountek-fr89ex-3-full-range-4-ohm/
> 
> paired with this:
> ...


Yeah?

So what kinda cross over poi t would you recommend for a setup like this? 

1000-1500 hz? 2000?


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## metanium (Feb 2, 2007)

Fricasseekid said:


> Yeah?
> 
> So what kinda cross over point would you recommend for a setup like this?
> 
> 1000-1500 hz? 2000?


I'm running the Hybrid L8's from 80-300Hz and Founteks from 300Hz-up. Everything is well within it's comfort zone. The only potential changes in crossover points I see, is lowering the L8's high pass when I get my door deadened better.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

audiguy said:


> I used the Thiel conincendental drivers in the kicks with Dyn 8's and they were great. The Thiels ran from 300 to 30k and and Dyns from 40 to 300.


those are way different than other widebands that are available. the Thiel actually had a coincidentally mounted Tweeter.
It was an awesome speaker, I loved mine, I would still use them if I could get any service and support for them.


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

I'm running the audible psychic nz3 with Dayton rs225"a and couldn't be happier. I don't feel you'd need expensive midbass to play from 60 to 200hz if the install is up to par. Just my opinion


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

bigfastmike said:


> I'm running the audible psychic nz3 with Dayton rs225"a and couldn't be happier. I don't feel you'd need expensive midbass to play from 60 to 200hz if the install is up to par. Just my opinion


I'm assuming you have them crossed @ around 200?

200hz seems a bit low to me. Why cross them over so low and put so much of the work load on the wide banders?


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Fricasseekid said:


> So something like this:
> The Madisound Speaker Store
> 
> paired with this:
> ...


I've used that exact setup, except I used the FR88EX (8 ohm). I liked it, still do, but use a 10" midbass now. My Fountek's are in the pillars, driverside is maybe 5-10* off-axis. There are some tracks that make me wish I had a small tweeter to compliment the top end, but overall I'm pretty content.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

fish said:


> I've used that exact setup, except I used the FR88EX (8 ohm). I liked it, still do, but use a 10" midbass now. My Fountek's are in the pillars, driverside is maybe 5-10* off-axis. There are some tracks that make me wish I had a small tweeter to compliment the top end, but overall I'm pretty content.


Where did you cross them?


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

I run the FR88EX and don't mind it.. it's on axis, so not sure about an off axis arrangement... 

I cross them as low as my 80PRS allows 1.2K


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX said:


> I run the FR88EX and don't mind it.. it's on axis, so not sure about an off axis arrangement...
> 
> I cross them as low as my 80PRS allows 1.2K


What handles your midbass?


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## Maylar (Dec 6, 2012)

There are 8" woofers that can dig down to the sub bass level and still reach 3-4 kHz. Morel maybe? The high end is well within the range of conventional tweeters, or even horns. I think you have some options.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Maylar said:


> There are 8" woofers that can dig down to the sub bass level and still reach 3-4 kHz. Morel maybe? The high end is well within the range of conventional tweeters, or even horns. I think you have some options.


And like such as?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

cajunner said:


> Pioneer B20, or any full range 8" you find, really.
> 
> The extra consideration is how beaming makes a speaker easily localized, it's not as if the sub in the back is the only speaker that struggles with "disappearing" into the soundstage.
> 
> ...


I thought the problem with beaming was that a speaker could be used off axis for all frequencies up until those upper frequencies at which beaming occurs. Then an on axis install becomes critical. Since on axis isn't always an option, speakers that reproduce a wider range of frequencies with out beaming are much more versatile. 

No?


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## audiguy (Jul 30, 2007)

Which is why I have 2 pair. But sadly neither pair are installed right now. But in the day...



Mic10is said:


> those are way different than other widebands that are available. the Thiel actually had a coincidentally mounted Tweeter.
> It was an awesome speaker, I loved mine, I would still use them if I could get any service and support for them.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

Fricasseekid said:


> Where did you cross them?


I go back & forth between 250hz @36db/octave & 315hz @24db/octave.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

Fricasseekid said:


> So the traditional 2-way setup is a 6.5 and a tweeter. Often the 6.5 doesn't dig deep enough to blend with the subs and the tweeters need to be attenuated cause they are too bright.
> 
> Many people are fitting larger drivers in the doors such as 8"s and 10"s to compensate for the lack of midbass. Then, so as to not run the midbass woofers so high they are running 3-way set ups. Then you have the few who stay 2-way and run wide band drivers.
> 
> ...


There's a recent thread on here talking about which systems were 'top shelf' in the competition lanes these days, and I was surprised how few of them used the 'conventional' set up of a 6.5" woofer and a 1" tweeter.

Here's some of my 'fave' alternatives to a 1" tweeter:

1) a compression driver.
Nearly all compression drivers use a diaphragm larger than 1", along with a phase plug which re-aligns the wavefront into a flat disc shaped wavefront which is the same size as a 1" tweeter, but with more output and potentially better dispersion.

2) Any of the Aurasound drivers and their clones
There aren't many small drivers that have more ouput per square inch than Aurasound. Dayton makes some nice clones (Dayton ND90 and ND91)

3) Peerless and Vifa's small neo drivers
Drivers like the Peerless 830970 are an excellent alternative to a 1" tweeter. Vifa sells a driver with the same cone but with a different basket. (At some point Peerless and Vifa were both owned by Tymphany, can't recall if that's still the case.)


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

cajunner said:


> Pioneer B20, or any full range 8" you find, really.
> 
> The extra consideration is how beaming makes a speaker easily localized, it's not as if the sub in the back is the only speaker that struggles with "disappearing" into the soundstage.
> 
> ...


I think that beaming really gets a bad rap, particularly in car audio. My .02 is that beaming isn't the problem, *inconsistent polar response is the problem.*










For instance, if you try to run an 5" woofer up to 5khz, the speaker will beam above 2.7khz.* Due to this, the response *below* 2.7khz will sound different than the response *above* 2.7Khz.

I think this is one of the reasons that people are always trying to push their tweeters lower and lower; when you cross a tweeter lower, it's a better match for the woofer. (Note in the graph above how the response below 2.7khz is wide?)

But another solution is to simply slap a waveguide onto the tweeter. That does a few things:

1) It narrows the beamwidth of the tweeter
2) Due to the narrower beamwidth, the tweeter can be crossed over at a high frequency and the beamwidth is still narrow, therefore a good match for the woofer
3) The 'icing on the cake' is that efficiency of the tweeter goes up, so distortion goes down, and dynamics improve too

Long story short - beaming isn't necessarily A Bad Thing. The goal isn't necessarily wide directivity, it's simply *matched directivity.*


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Have room for horns?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Patrick Bateman said:


> There's a recent thread on here talking about which systems were 'top shelf' in the competition lanes these days, and I was surprised how few of them used the 'conventional' set up of a 6.5" woofer and a 1" tweeter.
> 
> Here's some of my 'fave' alternatives to a 1" tweeter:
> 
> ...


The Auras on Madisound have an advertised sensitivity of 80db and handle 20% less power. How can they be louder?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

thehatedguy said:


> Have room for horns?


This will be my first active setup and horns kinda intimidate me.


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Fricasseekid said:


> And like such as?


The Dyn 182 will play into the 30s and up to 3-4khz. I ran them as a 2-way for the heck of it for a short while, just the 182s playing 35-3khz and the tweeters taking over from there. No subs or mids. It didn't sound bad at all but I'm sure things would have been better without the beaming or with them on axis. More sub bass than the stock sub could manage, better midrange than the stock speakers, not a bad option for those wanting a very stealth install.... if you could get around the beaming.


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

Fricasseekid said:


> I'm assuming you have them crossed @ around 200?
> 
> 200hz seems a bit low to me. Why cross them over so low and put so much of the work load on the wide banders?


The audible psychics play that low quite easily. I am just using the crossovers on my massive amps which only go up to 275hz. Wanted to try the simplest active setup possible.


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## Aaron'z 2.5RS/WRX (Oct 24, 2007)

Fricasseekid said:


> What handles your midbass?


Pioneer 720PRS


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## addmd (Aug 21, 2009)

I'm using the sls 8" in my doors and tang band 3" bamboo's in the stock locations in my chrysler 300. So far I love them. Im not done with my install yet. Running the widebanders off the ms8 power right now crossed at about 250. Been listening to it for about a year like this, and don't miss my sub stage too much, and the highs sound great too. I'll be finishing up this month hopefully. Plan to put up a build log then. Can't wait to hear the tangs with a little power to them.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

addmd said:


> I'm using the sls 8" in my doors and tang band 3" bamboo's in the stock locations in my chrysler 300. So far I love them. Im not done with my install yet. Running the widebanders off the ms8 power right now crossed at about 250. Been listening to it for about a year like this, and don't miss my sub stage too much, and the highs sound great too. I'll be finishing up this month hopefully. Plan to put up a build log then. Can't wait to hear the tangs with a little power to them.


How much power are you/will you run to them?


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't think there is any "Vifa" speakers now. They are all Peerless and different lines of Peerless. Both are still owned by the same people.


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## Woosey (Feb 2, 2011)

Check out wavecor.. they have some nice "home'' raw drivers... and very affordable..


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## addmd (Aug 21, 2009)

i'm going to run about 90 wpc to my tang band 3" widebanders. Currently running about 320 wpc to my sls 8"ers. I based my choices for the drivers on reviews from this site, price, and availability. I would make the same choice again.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

for my install- YES, they are necessary. I tried to keep it simple using the L3SE in order to raise the midrange and above frequencies to an unobstructed ear level sweet spot. thought I could run without tweeters but could not- even with plenty of high end boost. i was accustomed to hearing a very good tweeter and something was definitely missing with just the 3-1/2 widebanders.

the good news you can still run an 8", a 3-1/2" "full" range and a tweeter and keep it simple. 

just get a set of "imaging tweeters" that you can add to your wideband channel. they come with a crossover and level control- you could surface or flush mount right next to your full rangers.

this worked very well for me. match the tweeter's level to the full range, then control the level of both together on their shared channel. sweet deal.


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

avanti1960 said:


> for my install- YES, they are necessary. I tried to keep it simple using the L3SE in order to raise the midrange and above frequencies to an unobstructed ear level sweet spot. thought I could run without tweeters but could not- even with plenty of high end boost. i was accustomed to hearing a very good tweeter and something was definitely missing with just the 3-1/2 widebanders.
> 
> the good news you can still run an 8", a 3-1/2" "full" range and a tweeter and keep it simple.
> 
> ...


 How are your l3se's mounted? I'm not saying you should try it but it seems that reflecting them off the windshield gives them a little boost up top. 
For some it seems to be enough. Personally I feel the ultra frequencies aid in "airiness" and detail even if the specific frequency can't actually be distinguished. I did not get that with the l3 either. The nz3's though... I've not even felt the need to install the little imaging supertweets with them.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

bigfastmike said:


> How are your l3se's mounted? I'm not saying you should try it but it seems that reflecting them off the windshield gives them a little boost up top.
> For some it seems to be enough. Personally I feel the ultra frequencies aid in "airiness" and detail even if the specific frequency can't actually be distinguished. I did not get that with the l3 either. The nz3's though... I've not even felt the need to install the little imaging supertweets with them.


mounted flush in upper front door panels- just below sail panel. right speaker is on axis, driver's is off axis. even directly on axis these still needed a tweeter and windshield reflection was not an option. 

you got it- ultra frequencies adding air, detail and sparkle. gotta have it if only in moderation.


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## Datsubishi (Jan 9, 2012)

Avanti, Which imaging tweeters are you using with the level control? Are the tweet xovers available separately?


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

Datsubishi said:


> Avanti, Which imaging tweeters are you using with the level control? Are the tweet xovers available separately?


these, and not that i am aware of.

Boston Acoustics ISTS Imaging System Type-S1 1" Kortec® dome tweeters at Crutchfield.com


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## bigfastmike (Jul 16, 2012)

Datsubishi said:


> Avanti, Which imaging tweeters are you using with the level control? Are the tweet xovers available separately?


Doesn't cdt have crossovers for "upstage" imaging tweeters?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

bigfastmike said:


> Doesn't cdt have crossovers for "upstage" imaging tweeters?


Trumpet (a member here) is a CDT dealer.


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## Winno (May 3, 2011)

I use Seas SL6RNSL midbasses for 80 to 200hz and Audble Physics NZ3A from 250 with 6db slope right up to 20khz. 
I don't use the little AT tweeters that the wide banders came with. Simply don't need to. 
Tonnes of top end detail and air. My drivers are mounted in 140mm spheres glassed to the A-pillars and aiming 19° off axis. 

I also have good experience with the HAT L3SE and these roll off significantly before the APs. Even when pushed hard with eq, the HATs still lack what the APs give so easily.


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