# Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears



## Greg200SE-R

*Introduction*

First of all, I’m not a professional, just someone who used to be obsessive about mobile audio. So, please forgive any misuse of terms or definitions. Digital time alignment (abbreviated as TA) was the driving force behind my first active system. Based on recommendations by this forum, I put together a laptop-based measurement setup to help with setting time delays.

Long story short, I was never satisfied with the results. I put away the microphone and cables, and decided to use a different set of measuring devices: my ears. I experimented for weeks, and developed a way to set TA by listening for specific cues. The results were fantastic. The reason my method, with practice, will achieve better time alignment than any sophisticated measurement system is simple: it’s customized to every individual, and their vehicle interior.

With correct application, this method achieves immediate improvements in imaging, staging, impact, and transparency. Bass should become thinner, but in a good way - lean, with great impact. The sub-bass shouldn’t come from the back of the car, or even up front – it should be completely unlocalizable. Midbass should be solidly up front along with the rest of the center image. 

TA will be calibrated:

Using your own ears
Taking into account your own hearing (the same sound is heard differently by everybody... and much more so by microphones)
With your head in your everyday driving/listening position
Taking into account all in-cabin reflections and absorptions, including your own body’s effects

The method costs nothing but time and patience. An audio file of pink and white noise will be used for tuning and can be downloaded free here: Burn-in wave files: white noise, pink noise, frequency sweep, channel mix 

The method assumes that your system is an active one, with each channel individually adjustable for time delay. It is developed and written for a 2-way front stage with a mono subwoofer channel and no rear speakers, though it can adapted for any other active system, no matter how many channels. Note that there is only one sweet spot per calibration. 

Here’s a preview of the method for a typical 3-way system:

While playing pink and/or white noise through system, 

Isolate sub and passenger side midbass (mute all other channels). Align drivers.
Isolate sub and driver side midbass. Align drivers.
Isolate driver and passenger midbasses. Verify time alignment and center image.
Isolate passenger side midbass and tweeter. Align drivers.
Isolate driver side midbass and tweeter. Align drivers.
Isolate driver and passenger tweeters. Verify tweeter alignment and center image.
Verify front stage alignment.
Normal up the system and evaluate.
Notice that alignment takes place between 2 non-like drivers at a time (sub/mid, mid/tweeter), and verification is done using like drivers (both mids, or both tweeters).


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## Greg200SE-R

*The key to the process: what to listen for*

The key to the entire process is listening for specific sounds which indicate when 2 given drivers are close to being in phase. Initially recognizing these sounds is difficult, but once you understand what to listen for, calibration will become easier and quicker. Here's a quick summary: 2 drivers play the same noise track and their outputs interact. Anything out-of-phase will cause harmonics. The harmonics will exhibit the Doppler Effect when time delay approaches the correct range. At the "center" of the Doppler Effect, harmonics disappear, which means out-of-phase information is at its minimum; the drivers are in phase.

Here it is in more detail. During tuning, pink and/or white noise will be playing loudly on 2 drivers at a time, and the noise will basically fill your interior.

The 2 seperate outputs will interact, and phase incoherencies will show up as subtle harmonics within the pink noise.
The harmonics will be at a much lower level than the 2 direct signals, and are difficult to detect. The goal is to identify and reduce these harmonics/phase problems to a minimum.
As time delay is adjusted, the harmonics will rise and fall in pitch. The changes in pitch will sound random at first, but repeatable patterns will appear.
As the drivers approach correct time alignment, the harmonics will exhibit the recognizable sound of the Doppler Effect.
The Doppler Effect will present itself in one of two ways, depending on which 2 drivers are being aligned, and their relative levels: 
a)	The pitch of the harmonics will increase, peak, and then decrease (Like the typical Doppler Effect) --OR--
b) The pitch of the harmonics will decrease, bottom out (the trough), and then increase again (Like an “inverse” Doppler Effect)​
In either case, when the Doppler Effect is at its extreme (the precise peak or trough), the harmonics/phase problems are at their lowest level, and the 2 drivers are in optimal phase.
Note: As delay is increased from 0ms upward, there are multiple occurrences of the Doppler Effect. The target is the FIRST one to present itself starting from zero delay.

*Prep for tuning:*

Save your current settings to memory. Since calibration will be done from your normal driving position, have your remote control handy, or make sure you can reach your controls while keeping your head steady and facing straight ahead. A battery charger would come in handy. TA is ideally set with the engine off, to make subtle sounds easier to hear. Make use of the charger (or drive the car) after tuning.

In your car, disable all filters/XOs external to your main DSP (stuff like on-amp filters, phase switches, bass controls, etc.). If you haven’t already, set your crossover points and slopes, and set your amp levels. Zero out all time delays and get your pink noise track ready to go, with the player set to repeat the track.


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## Greg200SE-R

*Tuning*


*1) Align sub and passenger side midbass*

Mute all drivers except for these two. The sub will remain at 0 ms, and delay will be adjusted for the midbass. Begin your noise track (preferably pink noise since we're in the low frequency range) and turn up the volume loud enough to closely examine the signal.

Start increasing delay for the midbass, and listen to for changes in the sound. In the sub/midbass crossover region there are frequencies where both drivers are playing, and this overlap is out of phase. These harmonics appear as an incoherent rumble within the pink noise. As time delay reaches the correct range, the rumble will take on the pattern of the Doppler Effect.

More specifically, as delay is increased, listen for one of two possible occurrences:

a)	The rumble shows itself around 60 Hz, rises in pitch to around 250 Hz, disappears, and then falls again from 250 Hz – 60 Hz.
b)	The rumble shows itself around 250 Hz, falls in pitch to around 60 Hz, disappears, and then rises again from 60 – 250 Hz.

This event may occur anywhere between 0.75 and 3.00 ms. Try holding down the time delay key to scan quickly up and down between zero to 3.50 ms, this makes it easier to hear the pattern. When you think you hear it, note the approximate delay setting. Slowly scan up and down around that area and do your best to locate the center of the peak or trough, where the harmonics/rumbles disappear. This doesn’t have to be absolutely perfect yet, just get it close (the next step will fine tune the delay). Restore your normal XO settings and move on to step 1a.

(Note) If you’re having trouble hearing the Doppler Effect, go ahead and force both drivers to overlap and play the same frequencies – set both to play up to 300 Hz. Leave a 40 Hz high pass filter on the midbass to filter out low bass though. Go back and listen for the Doppler Effect again. When you’re finished with all of step 1, restore your normal XO settings and move on to step 1a.


*1a) Verify your delay setting *

The following is an example of how to zero in on, and verify the precise delay setting. Just as an example, say your best guess from step 1 is 2.00 ms delay.

Hit the delay “up” button and count how many presses it takes to hear a discernible change in phase (could be up to 30+, depending on time increments).
Say it takes 20 button presses to notice a change in phase (the rumble sound will return). Note the number 20.

Return to where you started – 2.00 ms.
Now, hit the down button the same number of times (20) – you should hear the very same rumble/phase change appear.
If it takes more or less than 20 presses, adjust your 2.00 ms delay up or down accordingly.
Repeat these steps until correct.

You’ve just eliminated the most apparent phase incoherencies between the 2 drivers, and they are now correctly aligned to your ears. And that’s how the method works. All other drivers repeat the same basic procedures. Each alignment depends on the one before it, so precision and patience in the first steps of the process is paramount.

(Note) This verification procedure will be repeated for all drivers.


*2 and 2a) Alignment and verification: sub and driver side midbass*

Mute all other drivers and adjusting delay for the driver side midbass. Note that because this midbass is closer to your ears than the passenger side, the time delay will end up slightly greater than the passenger midbass. The Doppler Effect will seem to appear and disappear more quickly as well.

Once you think you have the correct delay, verify using the same method as in (1a); this time, it should take fewer presses of the up/down button to hear a change in phase.


*3) Verify alignment: both midbasses*

Save your TA settings. You’ve just individually aligned your midbasses using the sub as their reference. Now it’s time to listen to both midbasses together. Mute all other drivers and return the XOs for the midbasses to their normal frequencies.

Play the pink noise and listen for the width and center of the presented soundstage. It should be quickly apparent that the image is solidly centered. If soundstage is not cohesive (almost like drivers are wired out-of-phase), or pulling to one side, then the best thing to do is go back to steps 1 and 2, and refine/re-verify your time delay settings. Making any arbitrary time adjustments during this verification step will do more harm than good. 

An incoherent or off-centered soundstage can be caused by zeroing in on the wrong Doppler Effect (the second one that appears as opposed to the first one). As you get better at recognizing the Doppler Effect during the first 2 steps, the midbasses tend to automatically end up correctly aligned, and no changes need to be made in this step.

Don’t continue until you’re confident of your midbass time delay settings.


*4 and 4a) Alignment and verification: passenger side midbass and tweeter*

We’ll continue the process with the passenger mid/tweeter combo. Since this step deals with the midrange frequencies, playing back white noise instead of pink may be better (but not required). Use your normal XO settings, mute all other drivers and play the noise track. 

The midbass will now be the reference; its predetermined delay setting will not change. Adjust tweeter delay until the Doppler Effect is heard. It will be more pronounced and easy to hear this time because the XO region is now in the midrange, and because the mid and tweeter radiating surfaces are physically quicker. The tweeter’s time delay should end up relatively close to that of the mid. If you have problems hearing the effect, use the XO filters to cut the high-end response of the tweeter, and cut the low frequencies of the midbass.

Verify using same procedure as above. It will take fewer button presses to hear a phase change.


*5 and 5a) Alignment and verification: driver side midbass and tweeter*

You know what to do. This one is a bit tricky because of the angle and proximity of the 2 drivers relative to your head. The Doppler Effect will come and go quickly. During verification, it should take very few presses of the up/down buttons to hear a change in phase. 


*6) Verify alignment: both tweeters*

Save, or write down your TA settings. Restore both tweeters’ high-pass filters to their normal frequency. Listen to noise on both tweeters together and verify your settings from the last few steps. Again, listen for the width and center of the presented soundstage. Same deal, if it’s pulling to one side or incoherent, go back to steps 4 and 5 and refine/re-verify your time delay settings.


*7) Verify alignment: front stage*

Normal up the XOs for your entire front stage. Leave the sub off. Still playing the noise track, double-check for coherency and general staging. This is just a final verification of your settings, and if your verifications have been good up till now, this should not require any adjustments.


*8) Normal up all settings and evaluate* 

This is the moment of truth. Normal up all of your XO settings, and save the configuration to memory. Play some music through your system and evaluate. 

If you’ve never set TA by ear, and you’ve followed the steps with confidence in your determinations, there should be a very noticeable difference. Each time you go through the process, you’ll be better at recognizing the Doppler Effect and further refine your sound.

*Improvements*

With correct application, this method achieves immediate improvements in imaging, staging, impact, and transparency. Bass should become thinner, but in a good way - lean, with great impact. The sub-bass shouldn’t come from the back of the car, or even up front – it should be completely unlocalizable. Midbass should be solidly up front along with the rest of the center image.

That said, TA doesn’t magically transform your system into a rolling 5-digit audiophile’s dream. It just reduces the tendency for your speakers to fight against each other. Hearing correct TA for the first time can be downright shocking - but this is simply the moment we realize how much the speakers fight against each other within the confines of an automobile. 

And, of course, this method is no replacement for a carefully installed system with well-placed drivers. But, it will definitely help a modest system with drop-in speakers bridge that gap somewhat.

Thanks for reading.


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## bikerider

Nice writeup, this will help a lot of people...


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## Wesayso

Will following this write up give you an image centered in front of the driver position or an image centered in the car?


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## Oliver

Wesayso said:


> Will following this write up give you an image centered in front of the driver position or an image centered in the car?


If you have ears . . . you will know when you get done !

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rs/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...888-help-my-soundstage-ate-my-windshield.html


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## Greg200SE-R

Wesayso said:


> Will following this write up give you an image centered in front of the driver position or an image centered in the car?


I'll assume "centered in the car" means along the car's center line, not "centered within the car."

Great question. The answer is a little bit of both, actually. If I had played a recording of a centered vocalist, I could point toward the image, and I'd end up pointing toward the front+center of the hood, where an emblem or hood ornament would be.

The method, by nature, forms a center image directly in front of the listener. However, this is pulled to the right slightly, because we sit on the left side of the car. It's the wide angle of the right speakers plus the low angle of the left ones.


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## Greg200SE-R

cajunner said:


> I find this interesting, but if you are using the drivers with overlapping frequencies and then implement a crossover when you're done setting time alignment, wouldn't the resultant phase shift of the crossover change the relative driver alignment?
> 
> seems to me like you would have to set time alignment with all crossovers enabled, as the delay that comes with higher order crossovers will change the time alignment by the amount that each corresponding slope accounts for..
> 
> this is what I got out of the recent thread where lycan explains a linear phase shift, and time delay.
> 
> so, if you could find a way to implement the crossovers at their most tonally precise, then set time alignment with those settings in place you'd have a more exact positioning in acoustic space...
> 
> don't know if this is incorrect or not, just seems like the tutorial relies on setting drivers without the crossovers in play


Note that the overlap I suggest is between the sub/midbass only, by adjsuting frequency not slope. No overlap is suggested for the mid/tweeter.

This is another great question, I would have asked it myself! This occurred to me while developing my method, and after experimentation I've found that whether I overlapped or not, I still came up with virtually the same delay setting.

I experimented under these settings: 
1) normal crossover settings (50 Hz LP sub / 60 Hz HP midbass 12dB/oct)
2) full overlapping (sub 0 - 250 Hz / midbass 40 - 250 Hz all 12db/oct)

These 2 extremes only led to a spread of +/- 2 steps (7mm/step, DRZ9255) with no discernible difference in sound either way - bass wavelengths are so long to begin with. At that point, I stopped worrying about phase shift in the bass region. 

I don't have the knowledge to explain these results. All I can offer is that my method looks at phase in a different way. Everyone seems to looks at TA in the XO region through a microscope... Every dip or peak in phase response can be examined, and it makes you worry if any EQ or XO change will affect it. To pull out a worn out saying, too close to the tree to see the forest. My method takes a more simplistic approach. It blasts the entire XO region and beyond with energy, exposes the biggest phase problems, identifies and eliminates them. There ARE still phase problems present, but are very low in level. We want to cut off the heads of nails that are sticking out. 

So far as my experimentation shows, calibrating with overlapping frequencies doesn't change the result significantly. I actually preferred to overlap because it was much easier to hear what I needed to, and therefore make a more definitive setting.


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## Greg200SE-R

cajunner said:


> ...and intelligibility is the rabbit in the crossover hat.


You making fun of my random cliché? J/K. Trying to understand your last post but not following you.

The _biggest_ benefit of the method is in the midrange and how it aligns the tweeters to the midbasses. If you're still hung up on the overlapping thing, then don't worry - absolutely no overlap involved with the tweeter/mid. Intelligibility, height, texture, focus, impact - it will all be there. Because I can almost guarantee you've never heard your speakers work together like I will make them.

You've got an active system, right? Why don't you try the method, then I'll do my best to answer those questions that remain.


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## Fast VW

Ok I experimented with this technique some tonight. I could not hear anything in the "noise" when listening to the sub and midrange but I could when listening to the tweeter and midrange. Let me explain what I heard.

First my speakers are just in factory locations, 6 1/2 in the doors and 1" tweeters in the dash. My PRA-H400 delays in 0.3ms steps. I started with the passenger side mid and tweeter at 0 time delay. As I increased the tweeter time delay I could hear an "extra" sound that seemed to be coming from around the center of the dash. At 0.3ms it started, from 0.6ms to 0.9 ms, the sound persisted but changed in pitch. At 1.2ms the "extra" sound disappeared. So my questions are:

1. Am I listening to the right thing
2. Since the extra sound was not present at 0ms delay and appeared at 0.3ms and then disappeared at 1.2ms, was the first doppler effect at 0ms or 1.2ms?

Thanks!


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## Greg200SE-R

Fast VW said:


> Ok I experimented with this technique some tonight. I could not hear anything in the "noise" when listening to the sub and midrange but I could when listening to the tweeter and midrange. Let me explain what I heard.
> 
> First my speakers are just in factory locations, 6 1/2 in the doors and 1" tweeters in the dash. My PRA-H400 delays in 0.3ms steps. I started with the passenger side mid and tweeter at 0 time delay. As I increased the tweeter time delay I could hear an "extra" sound that seemed to be coming from around the center of the dash. At 0.3ms it started, from 0.6ms to 0.9 ms, the sound persisted but changed in pitch. At 1.2ms the "extra" sound disappeared. So my questions are:
> 
> 1. Am I listening to the right thing
> 2. Since the extra sound was not present at 0ms delay and appeared at 0.3ms and then disappeared at 1.2ms, was the first doppler effect at 0ms or 1.2ms?
> 
> Thanks!


You've got the right idea, keep on it. I'll explain the mid/tweeter part first, since you are definitely hearing changes there. The same concepts can be applied to the sub/midbass part.

1) Yes, you are listening to the right thing. The "extra noises" you're hearing are the harmonics I described. It's out-of-phase garbage that we want to eliminate.

2) 1.2 ms sounds about right for a door mounted mid and dash mounted tweeter (it can't be zero ms because the tweeter is closer to you). Let's take a closer look at this.

From 0.3 ms to 1.2 ms, you noticed a change in pitch in the "extra noise." If you continue from 1.2 ms up to roughly 2.1 ms, you should hear the opposite change in pitch. Like I mentioned, you should hear ONE of these two things:

- pitch starts high, falls to low pitch, disappears, reappears as low pitch, then rises again
- OR, the opposite. pitch starts low, rises to high pitch, disappears, reappears as high pitch, then falls again

If you heard one of these, then yes, you successfully located the Doppler Effect and roughly found its center. Now, spend some time verifying that you have the true center (as outlined in step 1a of the method). Set tweeter to 1.2 ms. Step down to 0.9 ms then 0.6. Listen carefully for the pitch change that occurs. Go back to 1.2 and step _up_ to 1.5 and 1.8 ms. The pitch change should be the same. If so, then you've successfully aligned the drivers. If the pitch change is not the same, then set the delay to, say, 1.5 ms and repeat until it is. 

Now, for the sub/midbass. It works the same way, but the Doppler Effect is much harder to hear in the bass range. If you really have a hard time hearing it, then overlap the frequencies as described in step 1. Listen closely and you'll hear the same pitch change and disappearance of the "extra noise." Again, this noise will show up as a low rumble.

Don't give up on the sub/midbasses, the method can't be completed until you set this. After you do this, move on to the mid/tweeter alignment. Good luck, and come back if you have more questions.


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## Greg200SE-R

Note: I had mistakenly listed time delay increments in centimeters instead of milliseconds in my write up. For example, I noted time delay as 70 ms, but I meant 70 cm (which is only about 2 ms). It has been corrected. Sorry if I made a confusing subject even more so.


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## BowDown

Nice writeup here. I'll have to give it a shot. I usually just tune TA by playing a nice full range track and adjust the midbass to sub, then align the mid/tweet till i feel it's centered up.


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## Greg200SE-R

BowDown said:


> Nice writeup here. I'll have to give it a shot. I usually just tune TA by playing a nice full range track and adjust the midbass to sub, then align the mid/tweet till i feel it's centered up.


You've got a real interesting install, nice job on that! I'm interested to hear your input regarding the time alignment, since your system is so far from typical. I like that you already time align by ear. My write up never accounted for an installation with the sub up front, only for the typical trunk-mounted installs. You probably already know how to adapt it for your car, but this is how I'd try going about it:

- Passenger midbass is the furthest low frequency driver, so this is the reference, and stays at zero delay.
- Align this with the sub, adjusting delay for the sub.
- Align sub and driver side midbass. Keep sub at determined delay from previous step, and add delay to the 5.25 until aligned.
- The rest of the write up applies from step 3 on, adding appropriate steps for a 3-way front stage.

Were you tempted to NOT time align the sub since you mounted it up front? Don't give in - definitely align them. It's the only way to bring out the synergy between the 3 of them. You'll get even more impact than the sum of the parts - and no matter where the sub is located, it will disappear, leaving all directional cues to the midbasses.


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## s4turn

Brilliant thread, will give it a try


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## Fast VW

First let me say THANK YOU! I wish I would have had someone exlain this to me years ago. I have a CDA-7949 connected to a PRA-H400 via AiNet and an optical cable. My time alignment had been set by measuring the distance from each speaker to the driver's head and then set accordingly. I had made some minor corrections after listen to some music, mainly to the driver's side mid and tweeter to help center the image. The results were ok. Here are the time alignment values I had gotten that way:
Sub = 0
Driver's Mid = 5.4ms
Passenger Mid = 4.2ms
Driver's High = 5.7ms
Passenger High = 4.5ms

It wasn't easy to hear the sub/mid correction but after several hours, and finally raising the x-over on the sub I could here the "extra noise" and was able to eliminate or at least drastically reduce it.
After doing it the way descibed above my results were:
Sub = 0
Driver's Mid = 2.7ms
Passenger Mid = 1.5ms
Driver's High = 3.9ms
Passenger High = 2.7ms

The results are fantastic. The bass is leaner, tighter and not as "bloated" sounding. The highs are much smoother and blend perfectly with the mids. The imaging is centered perfectly and stays very tight and focused; before it wasn't real tight and it tended to wander some.

I am very pleased with the results.


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## Greg200SE-R

Fast VW said:


> First let me say THANK YOU! I wish I would have had someone exlain this to me years ago. I have a CDA-7949 connected to a PRA-H400 via AiNet and an optical cable. My time alignment had been set by measuring the distance from each speaker to the driver's head and then set accordingly. I had made some minor corrections after listen to some music, mainly to the driver's side mid and tweeter to help center the image. The results were ok. Here are the time alignment values I had gotten that way:
> Sub = 0
> Driver's Mid = 5.4ms
> Passenger Mid = 4.2ms
> Driver's High = 5.7ms
> Passenger High = 4.5ms
> 
> It wasn't easy to hear the sub/mid correction but after several hours, and finally raising the x-over on the sub I could here the "extra noise" and was able to eliminate or at least drastically reduce it.
> After doing it the way descibed above my results were:
> Sub = 0
> Driver's Mid = 2.7ms
> Passenger Mid = 1.5ms
> Driver's High = 3.9ms
> Passenger High = 2.7ms
> 
> The results are fantastic. The bass is leaner, tighter and not as "bloated" sounding. The highs are much smoother and blend perfectly with the mids. The imaging is centered perfectly and stays very tight and focused; before it wasn't real tight and it tended to wander some.
> 
> I am very pleased with the results.


Enjoy your "new" system, thank you for commenting on the results. Isn't it eye-opening to find out how much potential can be unlocked? Now that you know what to listen for, running through the process in the future will be much quicker, and may refine your system even further.


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## Greg200SE-R

cajunner said:


> got my system dismantled at the moment... trying out some wide-bander love before putting back horns..
> 
> what I'm saying is what you said, the midrange frequencies are going to be the more important considering how those frequencies functionally produce the panned monophonic that vocals require for that intelligibility, and any crossover in this region will be most affected by phase shifts in regards to how well vocals are reproduced. This is why I'd probably try and time align with crossovers engaged, including whatever protective caps are to be in circuit, just because you won't be able to correlate the final time delay to the doppler change if they are out of circuit. If you're using 24 db of slope, that amounts to 360 degrees at crossover, or one full cycle of delay, at 400 hz... well, you can do the math if you want...


My offer is simple; you put together the drivers, placement and XO settings for the kind of midrange you want and expect. Horns or widebanders, tune your system however you'd like. Then, follow my write up carefully, and see if you like it better. I'll personally apologize for your lost time if you don't like it. But, I _won't_ apologize for the drool you get on your shirt after your jaw drops.

To calm your fears once again, any midrange or high frequency time alignment is completed with your crossovers _at their normal settings_. Overlapping or otherwise altering your sub/midbass XO won't change your results significantly - but can greatly assist with calibration. You're free to experiment of course, and come to your own conclusion.

BTW, you aren't by any chance testing out H-Audio's new widebanders are you? PM me about what you're testing and your findings, please


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## ncv6coupe

Greg, Thanks for following through from the other thread and posting the method. Very detailed. How small are the increments in your time alignment setup? Not that it really matters but some processors have .7cm while others have 2 inch increments. Just curious as the bigger incremental processors would more easily "blow over" the doppler effect if one does not really know what they are listening for in the tweeter transition.


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## Greg200SE-R

ncv6coupe said:


> Greg, Thanks for following through from the other thread and posting the method. Very detailed. How small are the increments in your time alignment setup? Not that it really matters but some processors have .7cm while others have 2 inch increments. Just curious as the bigger incremental processors would more easily "blow over" the doppler effect if one does not really know what they are listening for in the tweeter transition.


The write up was done with a DRZ9255 with 0.02 ms (0.7 cm/0.28 inch) steps. The average seems to be 0.1 ms steps (about 3.6 cm/1.4 inch), and the method has recently been successfully completed using 0.3 ms (about 10 cm/3.9 inch) steps. Even with the relatively large 0.3 ms steps, the Doppler Effect was reported to be around 7 steps "wide" in the midrange (in the bass region it's wider). Even if you might call this "limited precision," it made a big improvement. Smaller steps will allow a more precise phase alignment, but it's easy to see how it makes things more difficult: 

0.30 ms steps (about 10.0 cm / 3.9 inch) --> approx 7 steps wide
0.10 ms steps (about 3.6 cm / 1.4 inch) --> could be 15+ steps wide
0.02 ms steps (about 0.7 cm / 0.28 inch) --> could be 60+ steps wide (!)

Which is why the write up is in such detail. DSPs with larger steps can still perform the calibration, and have an easier time doing so.


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## sqoverspl

I just tried this and it worked great (much better separation in staging and very clean defined voice and instruments) but I had to change it because of my hu. I have a clarion dxz785, this hu sets t/a not in delay but in distance. So you have to start with the closer driver and move out, so if anybody has one you know how to set it and the 785 has .067 millisecond steps.

This should be a sticky, it is a million times better then setting t/a with distance and easier then tuning t/a slowly


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## hottcakes

sqoverspl said:


> I just tried this and it worked great (much better separation in staging and very clean defined voice and instruments) but I had to change it because of my hu. I have a clarion dxz785, this hu sets t/a not in delay but in distance. So you have to start with the closer driver and move out, so if anybody has one you know how to set it and the 785 has .067 millisecond steps.


i was going to attempt this with my HU, different than yours but t/a is only available by distance. either in 2inch or 5cm increments so i'm going to do the math and convert the distance to ms, or find an app for my phone or create a program on my TI calculator. 

i'm curious as to why you say start with the closer one though. care to explain why the original didn't work out so well?


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## sqoverspl

hottcakes said:


> i was going to attempt this with my HU, different than yours but t/a is only available by distance. either in 2inch or 5cm increments so i'm going to do the math and convert the distance to ms, or find an app for my phone or create a program on my TI calculator.
> 
> i'm curious as to why you say start with the closer one though. care to explain why the original didn't work out so well?


The one you start with will remain zero. Since its in distance the furthest one will have the highest setting so if you start with the furthest one then you will have negative settings for the rest, which you cant do.


----------



## Wesayso

Couldn'you just set the distance to the sub first and go from there?
I have a HU with distance too and I figured I'd start with setting real distance to sub an work my way back.


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## BowDown

I will give this a shot during my lunch hr today. Interested to see if my current values are close to the values I would get with this procedure.


----------



## hottcakes

Wesayso said:


> Couldn'you just set the distance to the sub first and go from there?
> I have a HU with distance too and I figured I'd start with setting real distance to sub an work my way back.


i was under the impression that doing things this way is the more conventional way of doing so and the way the author explains this method is in fact quite different. 
i started off using actual distances as well and did adjust from there. by reading the instructions and all a few times i got the feeling that this way was supposed to be better than just using math with the distance and delay method since it's based off of how things actually sound to you, and not by what the data presents and in turn allows whatever t/a processing to take effect.


----------



## Wesayso

hottcakes said:


> i was under the impression that doing things this way is the more conventional way of doing so and the way the author explains this method is in fact quite different.
> i started off using actual distances as well and did adjust from there. by reading the instructions and all a few times i got the feeling that this way was supposed to be better than just using math with the distance and delay method since it's based off of how things actually sound to you, and not by what the data presents and in turn allows whatever t/a processing to take effect.


Yes, sure I agree. But what I ment was setting the sub the actual distance from your seat position to start and then adjusting passenger mid to that sub position and move on from there using this method. You could also max out the sub distance and start from there. After you're done you could substract the shortest distance from the speaker closest to you from all drivers distances obtained with this method to set that one to zero.
Anyway, that's how I'll try to do it I think. No need to convert distance to miliseconds that way.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Guys,
It doesn't matter if your head unit adjusts by time or distance. The method involves simply clicking up and down and listening for sound changes. Don't even pay attention to the numerical values - in fact they will usually come out less than you expect. You don't need as much delay as you think. The figures in milliseconds were just for examples, for approximations and guidelines. I would actually remove those if I could still edit the original post. At no point are specific distances or times going to come into play.

PLEASE, don't ever measure distances and figure them into my method. Measuring distance is an absolutely worthless way of determining time alignment. Everything you need to know is in the write up, just follow it step by step and if you have questions or problems, post them here and I'll do my best to help.


----------



## BowDown

Well my results are not exactly what I expected.

My HU even though set to mono will only output sub signal on the Left Channel. So when you fade to the right, and isolate the sub & midbass you only get midbass. This totally screws my ability to configure those speakers for Step 1. So what I did was used music to TA the L/R midrange & tweet (they are tied together on the same passive crossover, and are installed next to each other on the same plane, also R midrange & tweet is furthest away from Driver). From there I faded to the Right and matched up the midbass w/(midrange & tweeter) using white noise. I did the same for the Left side. Then I switched to pink noise and brought the sub back into the mix and aligned it.

I have a pretty musical set of ears. I have very good relative pitch, and good awareness of tonality. I had a hard time differentiating the doppler effect. I can hear the kind of tapping sound and how it beats irregular, or steady. I can hear the harmonic overtones as I adjust TA.. but I just came to the conclusion that I should be adjusting it till the tone is most steady and uniform between the 2 speakers? Sort of a good blend w/out obvious cancellation issues. 

As I adjusted the TA dial it seemed like the more delay that was added the lower (in pitch) the harmonic overtone would be. There was a couple points where you would notice some massive cancellation or what seemed to be a 'sweet spot'. This is where I left it.

Have to say after all is said and done.. for 40 min of just playing around I think it does sound better. There's defiantly a bit more bass/midbass.. and a bit crisper highs. 

My Old settings was as follows:

LF (Mid/Tweet): 1.3ms
RF (Mid/Tweet): 0.0ms
LR (Midbass): 1.5ms
RR (Midbass): 0.0ms
SW (Dash Sub): 0.6ms


New Settings:
LF (Mid/Tweet): 1.5ms
RF (Mid/Tweet): 0.0ms
LR (Midbass): 1.7ms
RR (Midbass): 0.2ms
SW (Dash Sub): 0.4ms


I also followed up the TA tuning by bouncing around between 6db @ 125hz for a sub -> front stage crossover point, and 12db @ 100hz. Both have some +/-.

Neat tuning method though. Would of never thought of using pink/white noise. 

I still have a **** ton of EQ tuning to go.. but this is a good start.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

^^^ BowDown, my compliments on your install, what a great read. I thank you for trying the procedure. The improvements you gained are just scratching the surface. Can you make the following changes to your method to extract the remaining potential?

- Don't use the fader to isolate channels. If your HU can't mute individual channels, can you disconnect RCAs? Complete isolation of 2 channels at a time is needed.
- Can you get the sub channel to play with both the L+R midbass channel? Can you switch RCAs or use a Y-connector on the back of the HU to do so?

With such a damn impressive system, it'd be a shame to get only a fraction of the benefit my procedure can provide.


----------



## BowDown

Well the fader and balance control on the hu does isolate the channel down to inaudible levels. It is a limitation of using an older hu. The only work around is to pull rca lines as you suggested. If I do this I can just leave all balance/fader controls alone and yank as needed. 

Still doesn't quite explain the doplar effect. Am I on the right track? Would have to say the results have been pretty good thus far. I can give it another go but I'll have to remove the HU to gain access to the rca's.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

BowDown said:


> Well the fader and balance control on the hu does isolate the channel down to inaudible levels. It is a limitation of using an older hu. The only work around is to pull rca lines as you suggested. If I do this I can just leave all balance/fader controls alone and yank as needed.
> 
> Still doesn't quite explain the doplar effect. Am I on the right track? Would have to say the results have been pretty good thus far. I can give it another go but I'll have to remove the HU to gain access to the rca's.


Whichever drivers you're aligning, the Doppler Effect will be centered in their crossover region. You are hearing the correct harmonics, the ones that change with every delay step, but I have never heard the tapping sound you described.

Imagine 2 jets approaching you from directly opposing directions, passing by each other right over your head, and continuing on their way. Think about what the Doppler Effect would sound like. Now imagine their engines emit only white noise (bandwidth limited to the drivers' crossover region). This is what the harmonic "overtones" will sound like when you are close. Listen for this pattern, find the center of the effect and you're golden.


----------



## bikerider

Guess it's going to take me several tries to see how this method can work. Attempt one was tonight and after a lot of time trying I ended up reverting to my old settings as they sounded better to me with music. With pink noise I _*think*_ I picked up some harmonic changes between the mids and subs, but hardly what I would call pronounced.

I am somewhat of a tuning novice though so I will probably give it a try again in a few days.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

bikerider said:


> Guess it's going to take me several tries to see how this method can work. Attempt one was tonight and after a lot of time trying I ended up reverting to my old settings as they sounded better to me with music. With pink noise I _*think*_ I picked up some harmonic changes between the mids and subs, but hardly what I would call pronounced.
> 
> I am somewhat of a tuning novice though so I will probably give it a try again in a few days.


Thank you for giving it a try, it can take practice. That first pair is the most difficult. Experiment with your mid and tweeter first to hear the Doppler Effect, then go back and apply it to the sub/midbass. Use all of the tricks to bring out the low-frequency Doppler Effect - because as soon as you can hear it, you are guaranteed an improvement in TA.

- fully overlap the sub and midbass (sub 0-250+ Hz, mid 40-300+ Hz). 
- turn it up loud; work in complete quiet, without any ambient low-frequency noise
- click up the time delay steps quickly to bring out the Doppler Effect in the harmonic changes. Think of this in terms of the stock market - ignore the random daily changes (one click) and pay attention to the long-term patterns (many clicks). The pattern will emerge.
- refer to my "jet" example in an above post. Listen for the effect in the bass and midbass region.



Greg200SE-R said:


> Whichever drivers you're aligning, the Doppler Effect will be centered in their crossover region... Imagine 2 jets approaching you from directly opposing directions, passing by each other right over your head, and continuing on their way. Think about what the Doppler Effect would sound like. Now imagine their engines emit only white noise (bandwidth limited to the drivers' crossover region). This is what the harmonic "overtones" will sound like when you are close. Listen for this pattern, find the center of the effect and you're golden.


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## Wesayso

Would it be an Idea to get a video of this up on youtube or something? With comments and sound so we know what's right or wrong to hear. I don't think you could record the sub/woofer that well but it might work for the tweeter/woofer to demonstrate the doppler effect with a soundbite... just an idea


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## Scooter-Man

The method seems logical and may make sense, getting the drivers in phase with one another by using TA. My question is this: Before this method, get the speakers gain correct for a nice centered image and not worry about phase for the speakers? (i.e. leave all speakers + to + and - to - [amps to speakers])

This method will force the speakers to be in phase with TA. Your thoughts on this Greg200SE-R

Late!


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Scooter-Man said:


> The method seems logical and may make sense, getting the drivers in phase with one another by using TA. My question is this: Before this method, get the speakers gain correct for a nice centered image and not worry about phase for the speakers? (i.e. leave all speakers + to + and - to - [amps to speakers])
> 
> This method will force the speakers to be in phase with TA. Your thoughts on this Greg200SE-R
> 
> Late!


It will be clearer and make sense when you hear everything the method describes. Practice with the mid/tweeter first to get a feel for it. As far as changing driver polarity, there's no _need_ for this when you have time alignment. That's not to say it won't help, I just haven't tried it. Regarding L/R gain, it's a small factor in a centered image. Aligning the drivers to your ears greatly overrides the relative levels; with correct TA, you can have higher gain on the left and the center image will not be affected. Staging, however, would be.


----------



## diebenkorn

Thank you for this, I am looking forward to trying this as well.


----------



## ZAKOH

Is there any hope to adapt this method to achieve the best possible results with a passive 2-way front stage?


----------



## OSN

ZAKOH said:


> Is there any hope to adapt this method to achieve the best possible results with a passive 2-way front stage?


Are your 2 drivers the exact same distance from your head?


----------



## bertholomey

Well, as much as I don't want to be that guy that asks the stupid questions.....hopefully you all feel that the only stupid question is the one not asked.....:worried:

1) If the system has already been rendered 'linear' using an RTA (basic eq +/- at certain freqs to match up the left and right), and 'Levels' within the head unit (L - 1 or -2, R 0) that helped center things in the sound stage, and then a little TA was applied (mostly to the right mid range - everything else was kept at 0)........would you put the levels back to 0 for all drivers before implementing your method? I'm not sure where level matching (really between left and right - not between sets of drivers) come into play with your method of TA.

2) No one has asked yet, so here it goes - restating the obvious.....if one happens to have a 3 way front stage, then it would be the same - just add the step with the mid range / wide bander = sub + mid bass / mid bass + mid range / mid range + tweeter - is that what the method would look like? 

I am certainly going to try this next weekend (trip this week) - I just got my power supply, so I can sit out there for hours burning my ears with pink noise. I am very intrigued with what your method.


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

Hmmmm very very interesting. This sound like the process of aligning like side drivers I've used for some time and honestly I don't remember who i learn it from. But your write is bit more detailed, with listening for Doppler Effect.

*Great Write up!*

Now *Please* correct me if i'm wrong here. But this process of T/A seem to be put same side drivers in alignment (as I state above) with the Sub-woofer as the point of reference for both sides. As you never align opposite side drivers. You only verify the center image with both sides playing and if it is not correctly centered start the process over once more.

Meaning, 

First your align both mid-bass to the sub/s. First passenger side then Drivers side.

Next. Your aligning the tweeter or midrange to the mid/bass as the mid/bass drivers have already been aligned to the point of Reference which is the sub. So T/Aing (putting to correct phase) the tweeter or midrange to the mid-bass is also Aligning the the next set of drivers with the sub/s and so on and so forth. 

So at the end of the process the entire system should be in phase/Alignment, therefor the speakers/placements should seem to disappear from the listening experience and just the music should remain. Which is the goal of any well design system.


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## montyburns

Messed around with this last night.. got some unusual settings compared to my normal setup.
Old: (far side gained down.. pass side is always loud in this car)
HL (high left) 0db, 1.2ms -- HR -6db, 0.0
ML -3db, 1.1ms -- MR -7db, 0.0
Subs 0.0ms

New: gain settings about same, only time listed
HL 2.5s -- HR 1.3
ML -2.4s -- MR 1.3
SUBS - 0.

Interestingly, the delay between L/R is about the same as my old setup, only with delay added to the right side.. This definitely blends with the subs a lot better, and oddly, the overall tonality is better.

I had a lot of trouble hearing the doppler effect, especially on the mids..
When i initially set up using just the pink noise.. I had to make some adjustments when I listened to music.
On the tweeters, changes of 0.1ms sometimes made a BIG difference in sound:
HL- at 2.3ms there was a noticable reflection off the drivers side glass., 2.4ms there was another reflection in a different space, even worse.. 2.5ms, WOW, cohesive sound and the phantom sounds are gone..tweeter disappears.

Overall, a good technique.


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## ZAKOH

OSN said:


> Are your 2 drivers the exact same distance from your head?


They're probably not.


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## Greg200SE-R

ZAKOH said:


> Is there any hope to adapt this method to achieve the best possible results with a passive 2-way front stage?


Assuming you can time delay your front stage channels, you'll see a lot of benefit. You'll still be able to precisely align your sub, left midbass, and right midbass. Which means correct sub integration, bass impact and likely improved synergy between L/R sides. What you'd be missing is the tweeter/mid integration. Follow steps 1 - 3 in the writeup.


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## Greg200SE-R

bertholomey said:


> 1) If the system has already been rendered 'linear' using an RTA (basic eq +/- at certain freqs to match up the left and right), and 'Levels' within the head unit (L - 1 or -2, R 0) that helped center things in the sound stage, and then a little TA was applied (mostly to the right mid range - everything else was kept at 0)........would you put the levels back to 0 for all drivers before implementing your method? I'm not sure where level matching (really between left and right - not between sets of drivers) come into play with your method of TA.


You'll find that time alignment overrides any level and frequency response adjustments as far as centering the image. I recommend to zero out your levels just for the sake of consistency and simplicity. After locking in your TA, you'll be working with an entirely different sound coming from your system - you'll find that you'll require considerably less EQ and level correction. Of course, you can fine tune as desired with levels and L/R EQ but this is more for stage width/balance. The center will not budge because arrival times will be set to your ears during the process. 



bertholomey said:


> 2) No one has asked yet, so here it goes - restating the obvious.....if one happens to have a 3 way front stage, then it would be the same - just add the step with the mid range / wide bander = sub + mid bass / mid bass + mid range / mid range + tweeter - is that what the method would look like?


Yup, you got it. Good questions. BTW, you've got a great install thread! I drive a 3series as well.


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## Greg200SE-R

Audible Physics said:


> Hmmmm very very interesting. This sound like the process of aligning like side drivers I've used for some time and honestly I don't remember who i learn it from. But your write is bit more detailed, with listening for Doppler Effect.
> 
> *Great Write up!*
> 
> Now *Please* correct me if i'm wrong here. But this process of T/A seem to be put same side drivers in alignment (as I state above) with the Sub-woofer as the point of reference for both sides. As you never align opposite side drivers. You only verify the center image with both sides playing and if it is not correctly centered start the process over once more.
> 
> Meaning,
> 
> First your align both mid-bass to the sub/s. First passenger side then Drivers side.
> 
> Next. Your aligning the tweeter or midrange to the mid/bass as the mid/bass drivers have already been aligned to the point of Reference which is the sub. So T/Aing (putting to correct phase) the tweeter or midrange to the mid-bass is also Aligning the the next set of drivers with the sub/s and so on and so forth.
> 
> So at the end of the process the entire system should be in phase/Alignment, therefor the speakers/placements should seem to disappear from the listening experience and just the music should remain. Which is the goal of any well design system.


Thanks for all your contributions to this forum and the industry as a whole, I'm very intrigued by your wideband drivers. 

You're correct regarding the method; my thought process was to choose one reference point and sync every driver off of it (and, by default, each other). Since the sub is the reference, alignment progresses from low frequency drivers to high.


----------



## timmay77

GREAT thread.

I attempted to do this today. I could absolutely not tell any change at all when trying to align the sub and my L8's, even with the crossovers set to 300hz. I THINK I hear a difference when messing with the L1 and the L3 just to see if I could hear something.

The L1 and L3 difference was VERY slight. It sounded like part of the static "disappeared" so to say. It went from full static, then to getting quieter on the next 5ms increment, to going away on the next 5ms, to coming back on the next 5ms. Does that make sense? Do I want to set it to when the extra static sound is gone?

Thanks for the help in this!


----------



## jsun_g

Thank you for the great write-up. I have a seemingly obvious question, hopefully not dumb:

Would this method also work if I play a sine wave at the xover frequency between sub/mid and at the xover frequency between mid/hi? I figure it may be easier to hear cancellation and maximum amplitude by just focusing on the frequency in question instead of using a whole spectrum of noise. Thoughts?


----------



## Greg200SE-R

timmay77 said:


> GREAT thread.
> 
> I attempted to do this today. I could absolutely not tell any change at all when trying to align the sub and my L8's, even with the crossovers set to 300hz. I THINK I hear a difference when messing with the L1 and the L3 just to see if I could hear something.
> 
> The L1 and L3 difference was VERY slight. It sounded like part of the static "disappeared" so to say. It went from full static, then to getting quieter on the next 5ms increment, to going away on the next 5ms, to coming back on the next 5ms. Does that make sense? Do I want to set it to when the extra static sound is gone?
> 
> Thanks for the help in this!


The sub/passenger midbass alignment is the hardest one. It has immense benefits so keep trying - you're on the right track since you already hear the harmonics (static) and have an idea of what to listen for. The static you hear will sound the same - just at different frequencies. You heard it in the midrange around the mid/tweet. The bass drivers will cause a low frequency "static." The easiest way to start hearing it is to hold down your time alignment button and scan quickly up and down - the quickly changing sound can bring it out.

And yes, the static disappearing is exactly what you're looking for, keep at it.


----------



## Wesayso

All I want to say is thanks. I tried it twice and the first time I just sat there not knowing what to listen for. Tried it again a few weeks later and "got it". I did the tweeters to woofers first to get the hang of it. After that experience I knew what to listen for aligning sub and woofer. It made everything fall into place more than I was able to reach before.

This really should be a sticky!


----------



## duckymcse

I give this method of TA a tried and spend about 2 hours on it. It was difficult at first, almost give up. But I keep on at it over and over again and finally nailed it. The result is quite spectacular!
Before I had my Pioneer P99RS does the auto TA (using the custom method) and fine tune it afterward. It sound pretty good with my system. But compare to this method of TA, Greg200SE-R method is even better...much better  Now my system sound more deeper(especially the midbass), voice is more focus and center and overall dynamics has improved. I would say my SQ improve at least 50% with this method.
Thank you Greg200SE-R for sharing this method with us. If you ever come over to southern CA, I'll buy you lunch


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## Greg200SE-R

jsun_g said:


> Thank you for the great write-up. I have a seemingly obvious question, hopefully not dumb:
> 
> Would this method also work if I play a sine wave at the xover frequency between sub/mid and at the xover frequency between mid/hi? I figure it may be easier to hear cancellation and maximum amplitude by just focusing on the frequency in question instead of using a whole spectrum of noise. Thoughts?


GREAT question. Using sine waves at specific freqs is something I tried early on while experimenting. I tried sine, square, sawtooth as well as multiple waves. The results were always the same: adjusting delays doesn't change the sound of the waves in any meaningful way. No repeatable patterns emerged, and no indications given when the drivers were aligned. I'm conviced they're too focused in bandwidth.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Wesayso said:


> ...I tried it twice and the first time I just sat there not knowing what to listen for. *Tried it again a few weeks later and "got it". I did the tweeters to woofers first to get the hang of it. After that experience I knew what to listen for aligning sub and woofer.* It made everything fall into place more than I was able to reach before...


This sums up perfectly what to expect, and how to practice listening for the Doppler effect. If I could still edit my original write up, I'd incorporate steps to practice with the mid/tweeter alignment before doing the whole system. Thanks for that summary.



duckymcse said:


> I give this method of TA a tried and spend about 2 hours on it. *It was difficult at first, almost give up. But I keep on at it over and over again and finally nailed it...* ...If you ever come over to southern CA, I'll buy you lunch


Thanks for your time and patience. If anyone gave this a try and gave up, try aligning your mid/tweeter to get the hang of it. Once the "aha" moment comes, you're 90% of the way there.


----------



## Kazimir

Amazing write-up. Thanks for the help.


----------



## mmiller

nice write up!


----------



## xt577

Can I take advantage of this method on a very simple system (front coaxes, rear coaxes, and sub)?


----------



## BowDown

Sure can. All speakers can benefit from some time alignment.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

xt577 said:


> Can I take advantage of this method on a very simple system (front coaxes, rear coaxes, and sub)?


Yup, as far as bass alignment between sub and front coaxials, you'll get all of the benefits. You can't adjust TA between your front mids/tweets, but they are somewhat inherently time aligned by merit of being coax speakers. If you have TA already, there's never any reason not to take advantage of it. 

About your rear coaxes though, my writ up never involves rear speakers. You can align them to the fronts, but I can't say how it will sound. In general, it would be considered bad for sound quality, but good for giving your rear passengers sound. good luck


----------



## littlejuanito

Using this guide, how would you time align components? 

In my specific setup, I have my components by the doors and both tweeter and mids are next to each other. 

Now, do I align sub with mid/tweeter as a whole, or should I do Sub and Mid first, then Mid with tweeter and adjust phase on tweeter to match my mid?


----------



## SAM77H

Wesayso said:


> This really should be a sticky!



Is a great thread


----------



## subwoofery

littlejuanito said:


> Using this guide, how would you time align components?
> 
> In my specific setup, I have my components by the doors and both tweeter and mids are next to each other.
> 
> Now, do I align sub with mid/tweeter as a whole, or should I do Sub and Mid first, then Mid with tweeter and adjust phase on tweeter to match my mid?


Don't understand your question, do you run passive Xover or active? 

Kelvin


----------



## ejschultz

For a passive setup, you'd have to TA the sub to the mid and tweeter at the same time. This walk through states how to use it with an active setup.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

Holy crap guys. I've had a break through with my system. I'm flabbergasted by what I was able to accomplish using this ear method. I'm really floored by my results. And I was starting to get rather frustrated with my hardware, thinking maybe I made a bad selection of gear, or that I'd have to shell out another grand to make any further improvements. I was wrong.

Honestly, I was a bit skeptical at first glace of the thread title - maybe even condecendingly. But reading into it further made me curious. Then I thought, why not, I'll give it a shot. 

Some background; my x794 hu has dta in .06 foot increments (or .07, I forget). I had initially calibrated the system by measuring my listening position to each speaker, like I'm supposed to. Those measurements are:

tweets mids sub
L 4ft 3.25ft 4.72 ft
R 4.75ft 4.5ft 4.72 ft 

(The tweets are mounted to my stock kick panels - only a few inches further away from my listening position than my mids, which are in my stock door location)

I've had the nearest values for each of these measurements dialed into the deck. The result is an imbalanced image with holes and peaks all over the place. Like audible swiss cheese. I just didn't get it. Why didn't my sound resolve? I measured and remeasured everything. I thought I was screwed.

So I started off by unpluging everything but my sub and right mid - mid channel low passed at 200, eq flattened. I sat in my front seat postured as if I was driving, put in some pink noise, closed my eyes and focused on what I was percieving. At first, nothing. I started adding and subtracting the distance values on my right mid. 

Eventually I started to notice what seemed like a faint chunk of the rumble swooping from right to left. After a while, I left the mid where I thought the percieved rumble was centered most. It was pretty close to where I initially had it.

Moving on, I continued with what the OP suggested, but eventually veered off on my own. I turned off the sub, and plugged in my left mid. The mids where now isolated to themselves. At this point, I ditched the pink noise and started playing a 250hz tone. 

Here's where the magic happens; I started off with the value of my left mid at the distance it is from my listening position. Eyes closed, I moved the inrements up and down, regardless of how "off" they seemed. Click, click, click - nothing happenening...ehhh. Then suddenly, as I continued moving the value down, the 250hz tone started to move to the right from what seemed like somewhere on the driver door/inside my left ear. It traveled clear across my steering wheel then quickly veered back to the driver door/left ear. I fine tuned it back to what seemed dead smack center of my steering wheel. Then I looked at the value on the deck.

Left mid: 1.25 feet away

WTF?!? So my right mid is 4.72 feet away, and my left is 1.25 feet away? Seriously? So the mid physically placed in the lower portion of my door is just an illusion eh? My mid is actually sitting in my lap, in some kind of quantum paradox? Okay, I see. Guess my deck came from a parallel universe where "here" is actually "there." Matter of fact, whoever is still reading this, it may come as a surprise to you, but you're actually the one writing this. Cats are actually dogs, and Elephants are actually jel...ok sorry. But yeah, you could imagine my bewilderment - my excited bewilderment. 

I then quickly dashed over and isolated my right mid and right tweet. xover on mids back to 2,500 hz low passed. 3000hz tone. Moving the right tweet distance value did nothing, so I decided to plug everything back in, and match the tweet distance values to my mid values. After this, while playing a music track, the high end was still slightly skewed , so I moved the right tweet value one notch further away than my right mid value, and my left tweet value one notch further away from my left mid value. 

Final values:

tweets mids sub
L 1.31ft 1.25ft 4.79
R 4.79ft 4.72ft 4.79 

BOOM.

My image is now crystal clear, with the sound stage smack dab in the middle of my steering wheel. I was in a trance listening to some of my favorite tracks, until suddenly my deck turned off in the middle of listening. Ah! Whoops. Drained the battery. Oh and cool, the deck reset to factory settings. And then I stabbed myself. :knife:

Haha, thank god I wrote down all the values. I turned the car back on (dang, I really did drain the battery.... the car barely started). After quickly plugging all the values back in, I was in business. Continued listening with the car in idle. Had to open the garage for the exhaust, and it was raining - but hell if I cared. Finally I begrudgingly turned the car off, the gas light when on! And we all know how cheap that stuff is! 

In conclusion, this event made me a true believer in the TAuris method (auris - latin for "ear"). Sometimes to get it done right, you gotta do it yourself.


----------



## Fast VW

It should end up in the center of the dash not the center of the steering wheel.


----------



## jsun_g

It sounds as though your mids might be wired opposite polarity with one another, given the preferred delay setting at 250Hz.
250Hz has a wavelength of 4.5 feet (a delay of 2.25 feet between 2 point sources would cause cancellation). Your new setting compared with the old has an additional delay of about 2.25 feet between R and L.




ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> Holy crap guys. I've had a break through with my system. I'm flabbergasted by what I was able to accomplish using this ear method. I'm really floored by my results. And I was starting to get rather frustrated with my hardware, thinking maybe I made a bad selection of gear, or that I'd have to shell out another grand to make any further improvements. I was wrong.
> 
> Honestly, I was a bit skeptical at first glace of the thread title - maybe even condecendingly. But reading into it further made me curious. Then I thought, why not, I'll give it a shot.
> 
> Some background; my x794 hu has dta in .06 foot increments (or .07, I forget). I had initially calibrated the system by measuring my listening position to each speaker, like I'm supposed to. Those measurements are:
> 
> tweets mids sub
> L 4ft 3.25ft 4.72 ft
> R 4.75ft 4.5ft 4.72 ft
> 
> (The tweets are mounted to my stock kick panels - only a few inches further away from my listening position than my mids, which are in my stock door location)
> 
> I've had the nearest values for each of these measurements dialed into the deck. The result is an imbalanced image with holes and peaks all over the place. Like audible swiss cheese. I just didn't get it. Why didn't my sound resolve? I measured and remeasured everything. I thought I was screwed.
> 
> So I started off by unpluging everything but my sub and right mid - mid channel low passed at 200, eq flattened. I sat in my front seat postured as if I was driving, put in some pink noise, closed my eyes and focused on what I was percieving. At first, nothing. I started adding and subtracting the distance values on my right mid.
> 
> Eventually I started to notice what seemed like a faint chunk of the rumble swooping from right to left. After a while, I left the mid where I thought the percieved rumble was centered most. It was pretty close to where I initially had it.
> 
> Moving on, I continued with what the OP suggested, but eventually veered off on my own. I turned off the sub, and plugged in my left mid. The mids where now isolated to themselves. At this point, I ditched the pink noise and started playing a 250hz tone.
> 
> Here's where the magic happens; I started off with the value of my left mid at the distance it is from my listening position. Eyes closed, I moved the inrements up and down, regardless of how "off" they seemed. Click, click, click - nothing happenening...ehhh. Then suddenly, as I continued moving the value down, the 250hz tone started to move to the right from what seemed like somewhere on the driver door/inside my left ear. It traveled clear across my steering wheel then quickly veered back to the driver door/left ear. I fine tuned it back to what seemed dead smack center of my steering wheel. Then I looked at the value on the deck.
> 
> Left mid: 1.25 feet away
> 
> WTF?!? So my right mid is 4.72 feet away, and my left is 1.25 feet away? Seriously? So the mid physically placed in the lower portion of my door is just an illusion eh? My mid is actually sitting in my lap, in some kind of quantum paradox? Okay, I see. Guess my deck came from a parallel universe where "here" is actually "there." Matter of fact, whoever is still reading this, it may come as a surprise to you, but you're actually the one writing this. Cats are actually dogs, and Elephants are actually jel...ok sorry. But yeah, you could imagine my bewilderment - my excited bewilderment.
> 
> I then quickly dashed over and isolated my right mid and right tweet. xover on mids back to 2,500 hz low passed. 3000hz tone. Moving the right tweet distance value did nothing, so I decided to plug everything back in, and match the tweet distance values to my mid values. After this, while playing a music track, the high end was still slightly skewed , so I moved the right tweet value one notch further away than my right mid value, and my left tweet value one notch further away from my left mid value.
> 
> Final values:
> 
> tweets mids sub
> L 1.31ft 1.25ft 4.79
> R 4.79ft 4.72ft 4.79
> 
> BOOM.
> 
> My image is now crystal clear, with the sound stage smack dab in the middle of my steering wheel. I was in a trance listening to some of my favorite tracks, until suddenly my deck turned off in the middle of listening. Ah! Whoops. Drained the battery. Oh and cool, the deck reset to factory settings. And then I stabbed myself. :knife:
> 
> Haha, thank god I wrote down all the values. I turned the car back on (dang, I really did drain the battery.... the car barely started). After quickly plugging all the values back in, I was in business. Continued listening with the car in idle. Had to open the garage for the exhaust, and it was raining - but hell if I cared. Finally I begrudgingly turned the car off, the gas light when on! And we all know how cheap that stuff is!
> 
> In conclusion, this event made me a true believer in the TAuris method (auris - latin for "ear"). Sometimes to get it done right, you gotta do it yourself.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> ...So I started off by unpluging everything but my sub and right mid - mid channel low passed at 200, eq flattened. I sat in my front seat postured as if I was driving, put in some pink noise, closed my eyes and focused on what I was percieving. At first, nothing. I started adding and subtracting the distance values on my right mid.
> 
> Eventually I started to notice what seemed like a faint chunk of the rumble swooping from right to left. After a while, I left the mid where I thought the percieved rumble was centered most. It was pretty close to where I initially had it...


You have about 25% of the benefit of this method. Yup, 25%. You actually heard the incoherent rumble between the sub/mid (the hardest part!)... The rest of the method should have been gravy if you heard that - and continued to follow the steps. Test tones will never get you to 100%, that's why you couldn't hear any changes with the mid/tweet. trust me, I've tried sine waves and every other kind of test signal I could find. White noise is all you need.

Try to follow the steps from beginning to end. You think you're excited about your system now? You have no idea...


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## littlejuanito

Fast VW said:


> It should end up in the center of the dash not the center of the steering wheel.


Wrong. It should be centered right in front of you. Everything should appear equally left and right.

Middle of dash/windshield is NOT center. It may be center or car but it's not center of sound to YOU (The listener)


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## ƒÆ§tÇµm

Fast VW said:


> It should end up in the center of the dash not the center of the steering wheel.


mids and tweets installed under me (kicks/door panel) so, stage doesn't go much higher than steering wheel. don't have many passengers in there so sound tailored for my location is pretty cool.


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## sqoverspl

littlejuanito said:


> Wrong. It should be centered right in front of you. Everything should appear equally left and right.
> 
> Middle of dash/windshield is NOT center. It may be center or car but it's not center of sound to YOU (The listener)


Theres a whole thread on this. It comes down to personal preference and if you compete or not.


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## subwoofery

littlejuanito said:


> *Wrong*. It *should* be centered right in front of you. Everything *should* appear equally left and right.
> Please tell us HOW IN HELL, can you have your center stage (where the main singer is on most recordings) above your steering wheel AND have your far left and far right equally spaced from the center? <-- meaning your far left is at least 2 feet (if not 3 feet) outside the car...
> 
> Middle of dash/windshield is *NOT* center. It may be center or car but it's *not* center of sound to YOU (The listener)
> As posted previously, there's a thread discussing where center should be located and we pretty much concluded that it was down to your preference.


You used really strong words there in your statement but I know 1 thing: 
Your statement is *ALL WRONG*... that's for *sure*. As stated previously, it's a preference thing - your post implies that it's like that and otherwise... Which is, if you've missed it before, *WRONG*. 

Kelvin


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## SAM77H

sqoverspl said:


> It comes down to personal preference .


how true !


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## Fast VW

Didn't want to start any type of heated debate/argument. 

When the time alignment procedure that is explained here is followed correctly, the center image ends up in the center of the dash. I have used this method in 3 different vehicles and the results have been the same everytime. If that's not how you like your vehicle to sound, then make your own adjustments accordingly.


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## Wesayso

Wesayso said:


> Will following this write up give you an image centered in front of the driver position or an image centered in the car?





Greg200SE-R said:


> I'll assume "centered in the car" means along the car's center line, not "centered within the car."
> 
> Great question. The answer is a little bit of both, actually. If I had played a recording of a centered vocalist, I could point toward the image, and I'd end up pointing toward the front+center of the hood, where an emblem or hood ornament would be.
> 
> The method, by nature, forms a center image directly in front of the listener. However, this is pulled to the right slightly, because we sit on the left side of the car. It's the wide angle of the right speakers plus the low angle of the left ones.


Greg's answer to this question was on the first page...


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## ecbmxer

Anybody have more tips on setting the sub to midbass alignment? I cannot for the life of me hear it. I had no problem setting the midbass to tweeter, but can't get the sub to midbass. If I were to set the midbass to tweeter first (each side separately), then dial in/check the image centering, could I just delay the whole front stage until it sounds good to me? Or would I need to re-set the midbass to tweeter delay after delaying the whole front? In general what would delaying the whole front stage do to the soundstage?


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## jsun_g

I have found that listening to a song with a tight kick-drum that has a well-defined sound of the mallet hitting the drum skin helped. You don't want it to sound like there is a "thud" after the smack but rather one cohesive event. IIRC I ended up delaying the front stage by around 1.5ms. And no, you shouldn't need to re-set the tweet-mid.



ecbmxer said:


> Anybody have more tips on setting the sub to midbass alignment? I cannot for the life of me hear it. I had no problem setting the midbass to tweeter, but can't get the sub to midbass. If I were to set the midbass to tweeter first (each side separately), then dial in/check the image centering, could I just delay the whole front stage until it sounds good to me? Or would I need to re-set the midbass to tweeter delay after delaying the whole front? In general what would delaying the whole front stage do to the soundstage?


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## Greg200SE-R

ecbmxer said:


> Anybody have more tips on setting the sub to midbass alignment? I cannot for the life of me hear it. I had no problem setting the midbass to tweeter, but can't get the sub to midbass. If I were to set the midbass to tweeter first (each side separately), then dial in/check the image centering, could I just delay the whole front stage until it sounds good to me? Or would I need to re-set the midbass to tweeter delay after delaying the whole front? In general what would delaying the whole front stage do to the soundstage?


This is one of the biggest questions ppl have. Read through the thread because there are numerous hints, tricks and others' experiences regarding the sub/midbass alignment. Keep at it, because it's the only way to get full potential out of your system.

Again, if you can hear the effects of putting the mid/tweeter in phase, you know the wierd sounds you need to listen for. You already heard the Doppler effect, so now the sub/mid produces the same sound but in the form of a low rumble since the frequencies in question are much lower.

PM me if you really can't hear it. As soon as you hear it, you'll take your system to another level. If you skip steps, you'll hear but a fraction of the improvement that's possible.


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## ecbmxer

Yea I definitely heard the mid to sub. I tried bringing my sub up to like 250Hz and it was still tough. Just not as pronounced as for the mid-tweet.

And actually the reason I'm trying to get this right is because I feel like there are some weird phase issues going on between mid/sub. Just like described above, like it's not one cohesive bass hit on certain songs. I'll try again. And I have read the thread fully, haha.


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## goodstuff

I'll admit I'm a skeptic right now...This method seems very complicated compared to my method, but I am going to try it, based on all the positive results. I will report back when I get done. I'll just leave this here.


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## ecbmxer

So I've been screwing with this some more. Still not there. But I noticed a couple of things. I also tried some with sine wave tones within an overlapping passband of two unlike drivers (right side midbass and sub, etc). I DEFINITELY heard very audible increases and decreases in sound. I assume when this peaks, it is the peak of constructive interference between the waves and at a minimum it is destructive. Has anybody else tried this and found it easy to hear with sine waves? The thing is, it was still very hard to determine when the actual max or min was. I assume you really want to try to set things when these waves are at a max, not a min. Min would be 180 out of phase I think. Not sure if this method would still work though. I didn't get it dialed in or anything, just noted what I heard.


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## Greg200SE-R

ecbmxer said:


> So I've been screwing with this some more. Still not there. But I noticed a couple of things. I also tried some with sine wave tones within an overlapping passband of two unlike drivers (right side midbass and sub, etc). I DEFINITELY heard very audible increases and decreases in sound. I assume when this peaks, it is the peak of constructive interference between the waves and at a minimum it is destructive. Has anybody else tried this and found it easy to hear with sine waves? The thing is, it was still very hard to determine when the actual max or min was. I assume you really want to try to set things when these waves are at a max, not a min. Min would be 180 out of phase I think. Not sure if this method would still work though. I didn't get it dialed in or anything, just noted what I heard.


Again, I tried using sine waves and it didn't work. wideband noise is the only signal I used that could reveal overall phase. 

Out of all the methods to hear the low freq harmonics, the best results come from pressing the delay key quickly to bring out the changing harmonics, and bandwidth limiting BOTH drivers to about 40hz - 300Hz.

You're listening with the car off and windows closed, right? You want as little ambient noise as possible. Also, if your system is normally bass-heavy (sub gain turned up), try to turn down the sub amp gain so that the sub and midbass output equal amounts of sound overall (when overlapped 40-300hz). Then, turn it up loud when listening for the harmonics. It should border on uncomfortable - it needs to be loud because the harmonics are low-level byproducts of bad phase. The harmonics will be an incoherent rumble that seems to move around, but be unlocalizable at the same time.


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## BowDown

This time alignment method is the only way I TA the sub/midbass. When it comes to midrange/tweeter I set them to the midbass values then tweak while listening to a nice fully bodied music track. It's tough to use pink noise up top, at least for me.


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## ecbmxer

I'll try again. I was running my sub up to 200Hz and my midbass from 63 to 315. Maybe I need more overlap and louder. I'm determined to get this to work.


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## Greg200SE-R

BowDown said:


> This time alignment method is the only way I TA the sub/midbass. When it comes to midrange/tweeter I set them to the midbass values then tweak while listening to a nice fully bodied music track. It's tough to use pink noise up top, at least for me.


Most people have no trouble using the method for their mid/tweeter. Almost everyone has trouble aligning the sub/mid. You should revisit the mid/tweeter section of the method, that is fully 50% of the benefit right there. I mean, if you already have the sub/midbasses aligned the rest should be cake.


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## Dzaazter

Where in hawaii are you located greg? I need help tuning my system.


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## Greg200SE-R

Dzaazter said:


> Where in hawaii are you located greg? I need help tuning my system.


PM sent.


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## anryo

Did I understood correctly, that both drivers must play about the same frequency at the first place?
Normally elements are crossed at the same frequency - only one is HP and onother is LP, so overlapping is very small?


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## TAMUmpower

So I used this technique for the first time to even mess with my time alignment. I had some trouble overall just hearing the effect. If I do .5ms changes I can hear the pitch change between the mid and sub but much smaller than that my ears struggle for sensitivity.

I wouldnt say that I so much hear a pitch moving (although I can hear it a bit). More so I hear the increase and decrease in the amount of grumble at the crossover point....so I was trying to aim for the least amount of grumble...lol

Eitherway I did a halfway attempt and did see an improvement. Especially in the kick drum and bass guitar where the sub has disappeared completely! All the punch and sound comes from the front of the car now...very nice, I like (borat voice). That alone was very enjoyable as all the low end feels so much tighter.

I did a rush job on the tweeter alignment just because I wanted to listen to some music before I went to bed but so for so good.


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## Greg200SE-R

anryo said:


> Did I understood correctly, that both drivers must play about the same frequency at the first place?
> Normally elements are crossed at the same frequency - only one is HP and onother is LP, so overlapping is very small?


I suggest overlap only for the sub/midbass alignment - if you have trouble with this step, overlapping can help. Once the TA is set, return to your normal XO settings. Overlapping does not affect the TA outcome in the bass region. Don't overlap with the mid/tweeter alignment, as it should not be needed. Sorry for the late response, if you have any more ?s post or PM 



TAMUmpower said:


> So I used this technique for the first time to even mess with my time alignment. I had some trouble overall just hearing the effect. If I do .5ms changes I can hear the pitch change between the mid and sub but much smaller than that my ears struggle for sensitivity.
> 
> I wouldnt say that I so much hear a pitch moving (although I can hear it a bit). More so I hear the increase and decrease in the amount of grumble at the crossover point....so I was trying to aim for the least amount of grumble...lol
> 
> Eitherway I did a halfway attempt and did see an improvement. Especially in the kick drum and bass guitar where the sub has disappeared completely! All the punch and sound comes from the front of the car now...very nice, I like (borat voice). That alone was very enjoyable as all the low end feels so much tighter.
> 
> I did a rush job on the tweeter alignment just because I wanted to listen to some music before I went to bed but so for so good.


You've got it. Haven't heard the term "grumble" used before, but it is strangely appropriate. Basically, you want to eliminate any extraneous harmonics/garbage/grumble. 0.5ms steps are relatively large steps so your results are to be expected. Your TA won't be as precise as, say, 0.1ms but you should hear a very nice improvement nonetheless. Now that you know what to listen for, try the process again and you'll refine your sound even further.


----------



## TAMUmpower

Greg200SE-R said:


> You've got it. Haven't heard the term "grumble" used before, but it is strangely appropriate. Basically, you want to eliminate any extraneous harmonics/garbage/grumble. 0.5ms steps are relatively large steps so your results are to be expected. Your TA won't be as precise as, say, 0.1ms but you should hear a very nice improvement nonetheless. Now that you know what to listen for, try the process again and you'll refine your sound even further.


No I mean I have .02ms adjustments but clicking through changes that small it was hard to hear the pitch moving. But if I made .5ms changes it was easy to hear. That's what I meant. 

I think it would help w lot of people to compile some example delay #s as well as what vehicle and driver locations are being used. This might help some people get an idea of what range is to be expected if they have a similar sized vehicle.


----------



## redbaronace

This thread is awesome. I was completely unsure of how to ta my system, but this pretty much gives a roadmap on how I will do it.

My plan is to try this method once im hooked up and keep working at it until I can hear the dopler easily. Im sure that once I hear it, it will become easier and faster to tune in the future should the need arise (new amps, new system etc).

A question for you Greg is, by doing TA you mentioned that it sounds like the music is coming from the front center (middle of cars hood). This listening perspective is from the drivers seat since that is where the tuning is being done. How is the music experience for the rest of the vehicle occupants? Can you describe how an extremely well done TA system tuned for the drivers position sounds for the front and rear passengers?

Hopefully for them it does not sound out of whack. Your input is welcomed. Also as was mentioned before, a Youtube video with good audio would go a long way for those like me who are visual and audible learners.


----------



## subwoofery

redbaronace said:


> This thread is awesome. I was completely unsure of how to ta my system, but this pretty much gives a roadmap on how I will do it.
> 
> My plan is to try this method once im hooked up and keep working at it until I can hear the dopler easily. Im sure that once I hear it, it will become easier and faster to tune in the future should the need arise (new amps, new system etc).
> 
> A question for you Greg is, by doing TA you mentioned that it sounds like the music is coming from the front center (middle of cars hood). This listening perspective is from the drivers seat since that is where the tuning is being done. How is the music experience for the rest of the vehicle occupants? Can you describe how an extremely well done TA system tuned for the drivers position sounds for the front and rear passengers?
> 
> Hopefully for them it does not sound out of whack. Your input is welcomed. Also as was mentioned before, a Youtube video with good audio would go a long way for those like me who are visual and audible learners.


Using T/A for the driver's side, the passenger will get sound that is squashed to the sail and pillar on his side. With some sound from the driver's side too. Almost nothing coming from the middle of the car. 
It's all out of phase sound but isn't offensive to the ear so if he's not into audio, he won't notice... 

Kelvin


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## GavGT

Just to add to the above^^^^^^^^^

Remember if your install works towards maximising path lengths, and reducing path length differences, then you won't have so much TA'ing to do, and the passanger side will sound less a$$

Gav


----------



## redbaronace

GavGT said:


> Just to add to the above^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Remember if your install works towards maximising path lengths, and reducing path length differences, then you won't have so much TA'ing to do, and the passanger side will sound less a$$
> 
> Gav


Can you expand on that. It is my goal to improve the sound throughout the interior of the vehicle, but especially the drivers experience.

I do not however wish to ta for the driver only for the rest of the occupants to get an unbalanced sound. 

Is there a time alignment compromise which improves the sound for the driver but also allows for the rest of the occupants to benefit?


----------



## BuickGN

redbaronace said:


> Can you expand on that. It is my goal to improve the sound throughout the interior of the vehicle, but especially the drivers experience.
> 
> I do not however wish to ta for the driver only for the rest of the occupants to get an unbalanced sound.
> 
> Is there a time alignment compromise which improves the sound for the driver but also allows for the rest of the occupants to benefit?


It would be a compromise at best. Most people can't tell the difference anyway. I used to care about the passengers, not anymore. The last person that was in my car compared it to his kicker coaxials (6 of them) and a pair of Orion ported 15s. Don't worry about passengers. The best compromise I can think of is the MS8 and it's center channel. It actually does a decent job when you put it in the "front" position using the center to help center the stage.


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## GavGT

Had a go at this method today, to try and align my sub with my kick mounted midbass. I set the sub filter to 200Hz, and put the midbass on flat, disconnected everything else. The Alpine 9855r i'm using has the ability to adjust the ta quite rapidly, so i could hear what sounded like a change in pitch of the pink noise track, but could only hear it when getting towards the 50-60 inch mark. I find this strange as my sub is firing through the ski hatch, and is only a couple of inches further away from my head than the passanger side mid. Could i already have the alignement about right for that mid anyway and that's why its taking time to hear a change? 

In the mean time i will keep trying.

Gav


----------



## Greg200SE-R

GavGT said:


> Had a go at this method today, to try and align my sub with my kick mounted midbass. I set the sub filter to 200Hz, and put the midbass on flat, disconnected everything else. The Alpine 9855r i'm using has the ability to adjust the ta quite rapidly, so i could hear what sounded like a change in pitch of the pink noise track, but could only hear it when getting towards the 50-60 inch mark. I find this strange as my sub is firing through the ski hatch, and is only a couple of inches further away from my head than the passanger side mid. Could i already have the alignement about right for that mid anyway and that's why its taking time to hear a change?
> 
> In the mean time i will keep trying.
> 
> Gav


Thanks for giving this a shot in your car. You're on the right track; you actually don't need quite as much TA as you'd think. Listen closely to that pitch change, the Doppler effect will emerge and you've got it. And yes, if the sub and your midbass are at similar distances, little compensation may be needed. Especially if the sub's firing forward toward you rather than taking time to make its way out of the trunk.

Don't pay any attention to distance indications at all on your DSP; ignore them and just listen for the sound. Again, setting TA by distance is easy for manufacturers to explain in their manuals, but is the worst way to set TA. It can be useful for rough estimations though. We don't want ballpark figures when we set time alignment; the REAL benefits are when we get to "pitcher's mound" accuracy within the ballpark


----------



## Sulley

Greg200SE-R said:


> ...play the same frequencies – set both to play up to 300 Hz. Leave a 40 Hz high pass filter on the midbass to filter out low bass though


Hey Greg, 

I'm having issues hearing the sub/mid effect but I have no trouble finding the Mid/Twt relation so I know what it suppose to sound like. I think my issue is crossover settings. Do you mean overlap them so the Mid 50-300hz and the sub plays 20-300hz? Or do you mean Mid 50-2500 and the sub plays 20-300hz? 

I use the crossover settings for the sub off my head unit but my sub amp has crossover built in that is 50-200hz 24db/oct and can not be bypassed. Therefore the highest my sub can play is 200Hz, Is this too low to the hear the relation or am I missing something else

I've been at this probably hour or two a day for little over a week. At first I thought it was just my ears and to give it sometime, (and maybe it still is) but being able to recognize the mid/twt one almost right way I'm starting to think its something with my install. So any tips or advice would helpful.

Thanks, Rod


----------



## Wesayso

It's easyer to hear when they both play about the same range so if your sub plays up to 200 Hz and your mid down to 50 you should be able to hear it. If you can adjust the lowpass on the mid from 2500 down to 300 that should help you hear the effect even better. Less distracting noise helps to hear what's going on.
After that just set your normal crossover settings back to where you want them. If you have a 24 dB/oct slope on the sub I'd suggest using that on the mid as well on your final settings, for example sub lowpass at 80 Hz /24 dB and mid highpass at 80 Hz/24 db.
Substitute the 80 for your own preferences based on the mid and sub of coarse. It can just as well be 60 or even lower if your mids are up to the task.


----------



## Sulley

Well I tired with mid crossed over in a few different places. 300, 500, 1000, 1500 and 2500hz. I thought I could hear it with it set at 500hz but I could never really dial in on it. I know with the mid/twt relationship "to me" I heard the correlation coming from twt or higher range freq more so then the lower freq. With the sub/mid relation does it sound like its coming from the mid more then the sub or vice versa?


----------



## Wesayso

I think you ment to say the mid more than the sub, that would be right. In the mid/tweeter you hear the higer pitched rumble sounds and as you adjust the TA it settles down and if you adjust further you hear a second rumble. It's where the sound settles down that's the right point. In the mid to sub the same thing goes on but it's harder to hear. If you go though the TA setting quickly up or down you hear it better and know what to listen for. The word rumble is more acurate in this case .

Just keep at it, the reward is great!


----------



## subwoofery

stockley.rod said:


> Well I tired with mid crossed over in a few different places. 300, 500, 1000, 1500 and 2500hz. I thought I could hear it with it set at 500hz but I could never really dial in on it. I know with the mid/twt relationship "to me" I heard the correlation coming from twt or higher range freq more so then the lower freq. With the sub/mid relation does it sound like its coming from the mid more then the twt or vice versa?


Try reversing the polarity of your subwoofer and do it again... Who knows  

Kelvin


----------



## Greg200SE-R

stockley.rod said:


> Well I tired with mid crossed over in a few different places. 300, 500, 1000, 1500 and 2500hz. I thought I could hear it with it set at 500hz but I could never really dial in on it. I know with the mid/twt relationship "to me" I heard the correlation coming from twt or higher range freq more so then the lower freq. With the sub/mid relation does it sound like its coming from the mid more then the twt or vice versa?


There's no way around it; it's a difficult thing to hear. "wesayso" already said everything I would've suggested; follow his advice. Just to cover all bases though, try:

- play both drivers around the same level/volume. You'll need to play them loud, that's why a 50hz low-cut is recommended for the midbass. Keep ambient noise to an absolute minimum; a running engine will make it much more difficult. 

- As a last resort, try swapping out your sub amp for another with a bypassable low-pass filter. Play the sub full-range, and try again. FYI just make sure it's a sufficiently powerful amp to avoid damage to amp/sub or both. Once you get the delay set, swap your regular amp back in. 

I like that you mentioned that the effect can be heard from one driver more than the other. You're obviously putting a lot of thought and effort into the process; thanks for giving it a shot. If you have more ?'s keep coming back.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Wesayso said:


> I think you ment to say the mid more than the sub, that would be right. In the mid/tweeter you hear the higer pitched rumble sounds and as you adjust the TA it settles down and if you adjust further you hear a second rumble. It's where the sound settles down that's the right point. In the mid to sub the same thing goes on but it's harder to hear. If you go though the TA setting quickly up or down you hear it better and know what to listen for. The word rumble is more acurate in this case .
> 
> Just keep at it, the reward is great!


You saved me a bunch of typing, couldn't have said it better. You've got this procedure down, haven't you? Well, it's no surprise since you were the second person to post in this thread... 

how's your system sounding? any changes/upgrades recently?


----------



## Wesayso

Greg200SE-R said:


> You saved me a bunch of typing, couldn't have said it better. You've got this procedure down, haven't you? Well, it's no surprise since you were the second person to post in this thread...
> 
> how's your system sounding? any changes/upgrades recently?


I played with your procedure till I got the hang of it and it helped me a geat deal. I promote this thread whenever I can . It has made my sound rock solid. I changed out my tweeters recently thinking I needed a tweeter that could play lower but ended up crossing them at about the same frequency as the old ones. 
After playing with slopes and crossover points using your procedure I now have what I was after even with the higher crossover point.
If you get it right everything falls into place and I enjoy driving while having a band strapped to my hood immensly (lol).
From the moment I got the sub just right with the mid bass it was like the whole car got into the groove... hard to explain but I felt all the emotion that was present in the music. You see it sometimes with artists when they are playing, they just can't stop moving because they are locked into that groove. 
The difference between good and great can be very small. This is a good way to get there...

So in other words: Thanks for posting this!


----------



## Sulley

Wesayso said:


> I think you ment to say the mid more than the sub, that would be right. In the mid/tweeter you hear the higer pitched rumble sounds and as you adjust the TA it settles down and if you adjust further you hear a second rumble. It's where the sound settles down that's the right point. In the mid to sub the same thing goes on but it's harder to hear. If you go though the TA setting quickly up or down you hear it better and know what to listen for. The word rumble is more acurate in this case .
> 
> Just keep at it, the reward is great!


Yes, your right. I just fixed it. So after you clarifying, I feel like I know what I'm trying to hear but I just can't seam to get it. I guess more time is required to school my irresponsible ears...



Greg200SE-R said:


> There's no way around it; it's a difficult thing to hear. "wesayso" already said everything I would've suggested; follow his advice. Just to cover all bases though, try:
> 
> - play both drivers around the same level/volume. You'll need to play them loud, that's why a 50hz low-cut is recommended for the midbass. Keep ambient noise to an absolute minimum; a running engine will make it much more difficult.
> 
> - As a last resort, try swapping out your sub amp for another with a bypassable low-pass filter. Play the sub full-range, and try again. FYI just make sure it's a sufficiently powerful amp to avoid damage to amp/sub or both. Once you get the delay set, swap your regular amp back in.
> 
> I like that you mentioned that the effect can be heard from one driver more than the other. You're obviously putting a lot of thought and effort into the process; thanks for giving it a shot. If you have more ?'s keep coming back.


I usually drive somewhere quiet on lunch break or in the evening and always with the engine off. Sub amp swap isn't really feesable right now, nobody I know has a random amp kicking around I could borrow (not much of car audio scene in my area). 

Something I never thought of is the pink noise track I am using... Focal Tools Disc. I assume there is no difference but I'll try and find a few other tracks to try it out. 

Yeah, The fact that I've spent so much time on it now with no real results kinda bothers me so I'm going to keep at it, I guess I'm tone deaf or something.

If anything this thread is good read so thanks for the write up and the help, Thanks to you too Wesayso


----------



## Wesayso

What slopes do you use on your mid/tweet crossover? You heard the effect there so you should have a good transition there.
I tried all kinds of slopes but have had the best results using 24 dB/Oct on both sides. My mids are at 3.15K and tweeter at 4K and on the EQ I have (16 band) 3K and 5K turned down 2dB.
Make sure your gains/levels are set right for the woofer and tweeter first and balanced left and right.
If you use 12 dB/Oct on both sides try to flip polarity on the tweeters.
If you have the mids TA aligned so your center is at the right place you can move the sub a bit with TA to check if you hear a difference. Not ideal but it could get you close.
Hang in there and don't give up. I wasn't succesfull the first time and stayed with it till I got it right.
When I didn't get the sub right because I couldn't hear it I just played with TA moving the sub further and closer till I got it right. After countless tries I heard the effect and realised that the overlap was the most important part of this procedure.
The overlap is important to really hear the effect. After that you can play with the slopes to get it right.


----------



## Sulley

My slopes for the sub LPF is off my HU which I do believe is a fixed 18db/oct and I have no flexibly on the sub slope. The Mid however the Xover is done on the miniDSP, so I have anywhere from 6 to 48 db/oct in Linkwitz, Butterworth and bessel flavours. Currently Running a BW 24db/oct.

I've haven't attempted any suggestions yet as Its been -5°C all yesterday and today. Therefore its kinda cold to sit in the car with the engine off for more then a half hour or so. Probably have a quick try again tonight. 

Also on the miniDSP when you scroll through the T/A quickly at every interval change it makes a pop/click noise from the speaker, that's been throwing me off so I got a line on a used alpine CDA-9855 for $60 if the guy would respond to he's email.


----------



## rc10mike

I remember this thread when it started, well finally over a year later I finally get some quality time to try it out. 

My first attempt was unsuccessful, ended up going back to my own settings. 

I HAD a bunch of questions but after sitting and reading the entire thread just now most of them have been answered. 

My trouble was (like many) finding the change between mid/sub.

Also, my unit goes by IN and CM. I find it strange that the Auto Tune sets the sub at MAX distance.,and this sets the sub at 0. One suggested starting this process with all the speakers at max distance and leaving the sub at max and then shortening the distance on the speakers in the front. This seems to make more sense to me for some reason, but I cant wrap my brain around the concept at the moment!


----------



## Wesayso

I also have a Pioneer HU and yes, you are right. Set the sub at max and work your way back from that. You could try and measure the distance to sub and use that number.
I have my sub set at 210 cm (it's in the front) and start with mids at 210 and keep subtracting distance till I find the right spot. That would work about the same as setting the sub to zero delay. (Max distance is zero delay, every speaker that is closer gets delayed more)


----------



## TAMUmpower

I found it easier to just put on something with a good kick drum and bass hits. I used Alicia Keys. And I just started delaying the front mid basses until I couldn't hear the sub anymore. Basically the kick location will focus to the front an it's really easy to hear the improvement. 

I wasn't really able to use this threads method for the mid to sub delay either. That's why I just use music.


----------



## hc_TK

Wow. 
This works great. I have never had this god sound stage in my car before!
Thank you so much for this guide. 
and The best is that I get much better result by using this method with only about 10min of tuning. 

One difference is that i used music and not noise, but the result is the same. 
When you adjust the TA and you get to a point where the sound kind of changes and you just know that this is correct.


----------



## n03kiku

nice write up....  ......

untill now after a few day, every night i always try to find out which sound i should search... and here it is .....



Greg200SE-R said:


> Imagine *2 jets approaching* you *from directly opposing directions*, *passing by each other right over your head*, *and continuing on their way*. Think about what the Doppler Effect would sound like. Now imagine their engines emit only white noise (bandwidth limited to the drivers' crossover region). This is what the harmonic "overtones" will sound like when you are close. Listen for this pattern, find the center of the effect and you're golden.


if you hear that kind of sound...., 2 jets approaching from opposing direction=> passing by each other => and continuing on their way ..... than just stop right there.....

let say from 122,4 cm or 48,96 inch or 36 ms..., drop it down untill you find 2 jets passing by each other and keep it down the length untill your hear like they continuing on their way....  ..... 

and use that way to the other driver.... and you'll hear much improvement on your system....., more clear, live, and dynamic...., what make me curious is there will be less on using eq....., purely flat.....

well....i guess that just my opinion about this very good information in sound improvement.....

once again.... thanks for sharing...... 

sorry if my english was not to good...., coz im from Indonesia......


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

i've devised an experiment (surely nothing ground breaking or original) were I will use my cal'd omni mic (placed at driver's head level) along with an audio histogram to monitor full spectrum blips.

then i will tweak my dsp's speaker delays to make the blips go from something like this:

----^-^----^--^---

to this:

---------^----------

So the blips from each of my speakers meet at one point in time, hence, the purpose of TA.

this is assuming my histogram has sufficient magnification. been thinking of doing this for a while. we'll see.


----------



## Wesayso

n03kiku said:


> nice write up....  ......
> 
> untill now after a few day, every night i always try to find out which sound i should search... and here it is .....
> 
> 
> 
> if you hear that kind of sound...., 2 jets approaching from opposing direction=> passing by each other => and continuing on their way ..... than just stop right there.....
> 
> let say from 122,4 cm or 48,96 inch or 36 ms..., drop it down untill you find 2 jets passing by each other and keep it down the length untill your hear like they continuing on their way....  .....
> 
> and use that way to the other driver.... and you'll hear much improvement on your system....., more clear, live, and dynamic...., what make me curious is there will be less on using eq....., purely flat.....
> 
> well....i guess that just my opinion about this very good information in sound improvement.....
> 
> once again.... thanks for sharing......
> 
> sorry if my english was not to good...., coz im from Indonesia......


I can only speak from personal experience but I still use EQ. Maybe a bit less than before. I do notice I can turn it up louder though. I guess you do remove some peaks and dips this way.


----------



## Wesayso

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> i've devised an experiment (surely nothing ground breaking or original) were I will use my cal'd omni mic (placed at driver's head level) along with an audio histogram to monitor full spectrum blips.
> 
> then i will tweak my dsp's speaker delays to make the blips go from something like this:
> 
> ----^-^----^--^---
> 
> to this:
> 
> ---------^----------
> 
> So the blips from each of my speakers meet at one point in time, hence, the purpose of TA.
> 
> this is assuming my histogram has sufficient magnification. been thinking of doing this for a while. we'll see.


I hope this works for you, but with aal the reflections in a car it could be difficult.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

Wesayso said:


> I hope this works for you, but with aal the reflections in a car it could be difficult.


very true... blips would probably get smudged too much. i forgot to add in the previous post i was also thinking of doing all my tweaking with 1/4 CCF covering windows, doors, windshield, wheel, dash, center console, etc - like try and turn it into an audio booth and isolate the speakers.

if it sounds good, i might just have to forgo having transparent windows and install some GoPro2 cameras on the hood connected to a screen on the inside so i can drive with everything permanently deadened with CCF.


----------



## n03kiku

Wesayso said:


> I can only speak from personal experience but I still use EQ. Maybe a bit less than before. I do notice I can turn it up louder though. I guess you do remove some peaks and dips this way.


Yes....I just doing setting my eq..., I can get warm but without sacrificing the detail so much..  ...

Mmm....so in my opinion..., when we had a system with a time alignment..., setting the time alignment is may be one of the important key to reach our system being good or becoming bad in the end....  ....

Thanks for every information that everyone already give....

once again... nice thread...  ....


----------



## n03kiku

To all...

What about if we use passive crossover for front speaker..? Is there possible for set the time alignment with this method.....?  ....

Thanks....


----------



## GavGT

n03kiku said:


> To all...
> 
> What about if we use passive crossover for front speaker..? Is there possible for set the time alignment with this method.....?  ....
> 
> Thanks....


Just disconnect the tweeters and aligne the mids as normal. High frequencies we are more sensetive to levels apparently so you shoud still get good results.


----------



## n03kiku

GavGT said:


> Just disconnect the tweeters and aligne the mids as normal. High frequencies we are more sensetive to levels apparently so you shoud still get good results.


Wwoowww....thanks a lot....  .... I'll try it soon....  ....


----------



## radone

Anyone with a Alpine INA-w910 have success with this method. I tried yesterday and could not hear the Doppler Effect due to the fact that every time you press a key to change the TA the sound is interrupted and the head unit makes a beep.


----------



## rc10mike

radone said:


> Anyone with a Alpine INA-w910 have success with this method. I tried yesterday and could not here the Doppler Effect due to the fact that every time you press a key to change the TA the sound is interrupted and the head unit makes a beep.


I think thats part of my problem, my HU (P99rs) makes an annoying beep every time you change TA, it doesnt interrupt sound, but the beep sort of distracts me from the changes Im trying to listen for


----------



## jcollin76

rc10mike said:


> I think thats part of my problem, my HU (P99rs) makes an annoying beep every time you change TA, it doesnt interrupt sound, but the beep sort of distracts me from the changes Im trying to listen for


Dear god do know what your talking about.


----------



## minbari

radone said:


> Anyone with a Alpine INA-w910 have success with this method. I tried yesterday and could not hear the Doppler Effect due to the fact that every time you press a key to change the TA the sound is interrupted and the head unit makes a beep.


turn the beep off. I know my alpine has a setting to turn it off.


----------



## jcollin76

minbari said:


> turn the beep off. I know my alpine has a setting to turn it off.


That would be nice to have. Unfortunately, the p99 can't do that.


----------



## derickveliz

*Great information here lots of potencial... Thanks Greg200SE-R for all your input.*

I really want to try this, but I have a couple of questions:

Since I have my subwoofer up front (see image below), do I still start with subwoofer and right mid-bass? and set up the sub for zero delay?

What about using pink noise in the range of each x-over point? maybe not?

Thanks for all your help.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

*


derickveliz said:



Great information here lots of potencial... Thanks Greg200SE-R for all your input.

I really want to try this, but I have a couple of questions:

Since I have my subwoofer up front (see image below), do I still start with subwoofer and right mid-bass? and set up the sub for zero delay?

What about using pink noise in the range of each x-over point? maybe not?

Thanks for all your help.

Click to expand...

*Perhaps Bowdown may chime in. He was the first one on this thread to ask how to align a system w/a dash mounted sub. Below is what I had recommended he try. I don't know how it worked, as I never tried it before. 

The theory is to have the furthest driver as the reference point; all other drivers will be time aligned to it. Visualize a circle with your head as the center, and the radius = distance to furthest driver (the circle reaches and intersects the furthest driver). Delay is simply added to every other driver so that they're "pushed outward" to the circle; perceived distance = that of the furthest one. Normally, the furthest is a trunk-mounted sub. The write-up is altered when this isn't the case.

About your second question, pink noise covers the audible range, so no matter what XO point you us, there will be constant output energy.




Greg200SE-R said:


> You've got a real interesting install, nice job on that! I'm interested to hear your input regarding the time alignment, since your system is so far from typical. I like that you already time align by ear. My write up never accounted for an installation with the sub up front, only for the typical trunk-mounted installs. You probably already know how to adapt it for your car, but this is how I'd try going about it:
> 
> - Passenger midbass is the furthest low frequency driver, so this is the reference, and stays at zero delay.
> - Align this with the sub, adjusting delay for the sub.
> - Align sub and driver side midbass. Keep sub at determined delay from previous step, and add delay to the 5.25 until aligned.
> - The rest of the write up applies from step 3 on, adding appropriate steps for a 3-way front stage.
> 
> Were you tempted to NOT time align the sub since you mounted it up front? Don't give in - definitely align them. It's the only way to bring out the synergy between the 3 of them. You'll get even more impact than the sum of the parts - and no matter where the sub is located, it will disappear, leaving all directional cues to the midbasses.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

minbari said:


> turn the beep off. I know my alpine has a setting to turn it off.
> 
> 
> jcollin76 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That would be nice to have. Unfortunately, the p99 can't do that.
Click to expand...

That seriously complicates things. If this is true, then this is a big design flaw on Pioneer's part. They assume that time delay is to be pre-determined or pre-measured, and that the user need only to select the appropriate value. If they had an inkling TA could be set in real-time, someone would've though to make a defeatable "beep."


----------



## radone

On the Alpine unit I was able to disable the beep, unfortunately when you press a key to change the TA the sound is still interrupted.


----------



## Wesayso

jcollin76 said:


> That would be nice to have. Unfortunately, the p99 can't do that.


If it's anything like the P88RS II than you can turn off the beep in the setup menu you get when the radio is off.


----------



## bertholomey

Hopefully someone runs across this - I was trying to turn the beep off as well because it was 'interfering' with what I was listening for - did not see it as an option in the set up menus


----------



## jcollin76

Wesayso said:


> If it's anything like the P88RS II than you can turn off the beep in the setup menu you get when the radio is off.


It's not, not that I've found anyway. The only option during the setup menu, is for disabling the beep for powering off reminder. The beep to take off the face during auto open.







bertholomey said:


> Hopefully someone runs across this - I was trying to turn the beep off as well because it was 'interfering' with what I was listening for - did not see it as an option in the set up menus


Not sure if it could be disabled, or modded, but if it could, I'm all in. I know it's more than I'm capable of, but maybe someone has the ability to try... Or at least look into it. 
Might be worth a pm to Matt R... And while he's in there....


----------



## rc10mike

I went through the service manual and located the beeper, Im going to open up the unit and either unsolder it or just put some material over it to quiet it some...

Ill post a how-to when I have time!


----------



## jcollin76

rc10mike said:


> I went through the service manual and located the beeper, Im going to open up the unit and either unsolder it or just put some material over it to quiet it some...
> 
> Ill post a how-to when I have time!


Sweet man, much appreciated!


----------



## fcarpio

Here is an alternative simpler method I devised from another interest I have:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...technique-ear-time-alignment.html#post1571188

Let me know of it works for you, it is a lot less reading too.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

fcarpio said:


> Here is an alternative simpler method I devised from another interest I have:
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...technique-ear-time-alignment.html#post1571188
> 
> Let me know of it works for you, it is a lot less reading too.


Interesting technique, it very well could be a much simpler and easier method than my own. I wish I still had a car audio system to try it out on! I love out-of-the-box thinking like this.


----------



## fcarpio

Greg200SE-R said:


> Interesting technique, it very well could be a much simpler and easier method than my own. I wish I still had a car audio system to try it out on! I love out-of-the-box thinking like this.


Thank you, coming from you I take it as a huge compliment.


----------



## derickveliz

Greg200SE-R said:


> Interesting technique, it very well could be a much simpler and easier method than my own. I wish I still had a car audio system to try it out on! I love out-of-the-box thinking like this.


I feel sorry that you can't play with your system, If you where closer to this side of the globe, I would let you play with mine!

Besides that I would like to thank all of you guys for your help and sharing your knowledge here.

____________________________________________________________



*Ok, I declare my self guilty... I did it!* 

but in a none appropriate way! so don't do this at home LOL

AND remember I'm learning this stuff so take it as I'm so naive that I must be doing some thing wrong...


I just couldn't stop my self trying this stuff, so on my way to work on a very long straight highway cruising at 65 mph I started playing and after a while.... (I know... *I'm not supposed to do it this way, but it works!*) I'm sure that once I take my time and redo this with the car sitting in my very quiet garage every thing will be much better.

*So after an hour .... WOW! *my stage was very good, it really works! in a few words, I can say it gave my system *a BOLD feeling!* Bass is much better and I can crank the volume a little bit more with out distortion!

Stage height, width and depth was improved!

I get a better feeling of layers in my stage now!

Image got much better because *I Had* stuff gathered on the left and right and center wasn't perfect:

**_*_*______*______*_*_* *




Now I get a better distribution: (in songs)

**__*__*____*____*__*__* * 





Now the funny part is when I play my favorite songs they sound really good, very natural and they sound great! but when I play tracks like the 7 drums for example my image gets screw up: I don't care really, because when I play music is much better than before.

This is my stage with the 7 drum track:

**_*_*_____*__*______*_**


Some thing I came across, besides that I have the Sub up front, is that my MID (on the right) turns out to be the furthest speaker in the equation, should I start with that one instead than the right MID-BASS ? You can see in the images below that I bump up the right mid-bass a little bit leaving the right mid to (0) zero delay?


These are images of (1)Auto TA/EQ, then My (2)Custom and last after tuning with this (3)method.

(1) AUTO TA









(2) BEFORE









(3) AFTER









Thanks again, and now I will try to do it the right way! 
and will report back!

D.


----------



## ErinH

When phase is just right the entire system improves. It truly is amazing the difference a couple milliseconds can make. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

derickveliz said:


> I just couldn't stop my self trying this stuff, so on my way to work on a very long straight highway cruising at 65 mph I started playing and after a while.... (I know... *I'm not supposed to do it this way, but it works!*) I'm sure that once I take my time and redo this with the car sitting in my very quiet garage every thing will be much better.
> D.


PM sent, re: front-mounted sub.

You set TA while doing 65? lol! Perhaps when you read, that TA will be set while "in your normal driving position," you took it a bit too literally? I'll need to add to the procedure, "Do not attempt this while at speeds above ZERO MPH." I'm glad you were able to post your results afterward!


----------



## fcarpio

Derik, Just out of curiosity. Shouldn't your sub have 0 delay? That would be your starting point for TA. Maybe I am missing something...

Edit: I saw your "sub" question above. I still think you should have the sub at zero delay but start the TA with the left mid bass and the sub instead of the right mid bass and the sub as you want to TA speakers that are opposite to each other for better results.


----------



## subwoofery

fcarpio said:


> Derik, Just out of curiosity. Shouldn't your sub have 0 delay? That would be your starting point for TA. Maybe I am missing something...
> 
> Edit: I saw your "sub" question above. I still think you should have the sub at zero delay but start the TA with the left mid bass and the sub instead of the right mid bass and the sub as you want to TA speakers that are opposite to each other for better results.


The guy has a HU that inputs "inches" instead of "milliseconds" for T/A. 
Second, he has a front mounted subwoofer 

Kelvin


----------



## fcarpio

subwoofery said:


> The guy has a HU that inputs "inches" instead of "milliseconds" for T/A.
> Second, he has a front mounted subwoofer
> 
> Kelvin


That shouldn't matter as he is listening not measuring. Anyway, Derick replied to me in another thread and he has his TA sorted out now.


----------



## subwoofery

fcarpio said:


> That shouldn't matter as he is listening not measuring. Anyway, Derick replied to me in another thread and he has his TA sorted out now.


Actually that DOES matter... Maybe you haven't used the P99RS but the farthest driver gets the MOST input on the HU. 
Way different than my Eclipse where the furthest is @ 0. 

Kelvin


----------



## fcarpio

subwoofery said:


> Actually that DOES matter... Maybe you haven't used the P99RS but the farthest driver gets the MOST input on the HU.
> Way different than my Eclipse where the furthest is @ 0.
> 
> Kelvin


Well, in that case he would have to match the levels before attempting to TA. I do apologize for assuming, in my last couple of processors I was able to set the level for each speaker independently.


----------



## derickveliz

Not really but let's don't get confused... (at least don't confuse me LOL)

*zero (0) delay is 155.39 inches is the max number* in the P99 scale, so zero (0) is the max delay, *as the location of each speaker is closer to ears delay increases. *


*I just would like to know what does it means when *_"in that case he would have to match the levels before attempting to TA"?_ *what levels are your referring to?*


I'm not an expert here like I wrote before, but *I can control each of the speakers individually*, mute, change phase, x-over point, etc, etc... every thing these methods required I can do from my remote control.

What makes my procedure different is that I have* my woofer in front,* and my farthest speaker(s) are my Mids and Mid-bass, and you can see that reflected on the image below. Also take in consideration that the subwoofer is in *a ported box that shuts under the dashboard...*








































*I can't wait to do it again, now at 0 MPH *

D.


----------



## fcarpio

Levels = Volume. I was referring to the levels of each speaker pair you are doing the TA for. They would have to be matched so you can better listen for the Doppler or "warble" effect on this technique.


----------



## derickveliz

fcarpio said:


> Levels = Volume. I was referring to the levels of each speaker pair you are doing the TA for. They would have to be matched so you can better listen for the Doppler or "warble" effect on this technique.


No problem, I didn't think about that when doing the first attempt, I can do that my HU (P99) lets me control that too.

D.


----------



## derickveliz

I'm still thinking I should start from the Right Mid (since is the farthest speaker) and work my way up to tweeters and down to Mid-bass and woofer :iono:

What do you think? is that possible or I'm missing some thing?

D.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

derickveliz said:


> I'm still thinking I should start from the Right Mid (since is the farthest speaker) and work my way up to tweeters and down to Mid-bass and woofer :iono:
> 
> What do you think? is that possible or I'm missing some thing?
> 
> D.


Derick, stay tuned, I will get back to you soon. I've been working with another DIY member who has the same setup as you. This person has a 3-way front stage with mids/tweets in kicks (and therefore further away than midbasses). It requires altering the procedure slightly. Thanks for your patience, I know you've been posting questions for a few days now.


----------



## fcarpio

Just out of curiosity, does your sub have a phase control setting? If it does, you could probably get away with doing the TA for everything except the subs, then use the phase control setting to dial it where it sounds the loudest. That should take care of the alignment without any delays. Well in a way the phasing control is a delay but it will only move/shift your signal by half a cycle (0-180). Shifting more than half a cycle is like going backwards so that setting should get you where you need to be. 

Just a thought, I think it can work...


----------



## derickveliz

Greg200SE-R said:


> Derick, stay tuned, I will get back to you soon. I've been working with another DIY member who has the same setup as you. This person has a 3-way front stage with mids/tweets in kicks (and therefore further away than midbasses). It requires altering the procedure slightly. Thanks for your patience, I know you've been posting questions for a few days now.


*Thank you very much! I'll be here.... no rush I'm enjoying my music!*





fcarpio said:


> Just out of curiosity, does your sub have a phase control setting? If it does, you could probably get away with doing the TA for everything except the subs, then use the phase control setting to dial it where it sounds the loudest. That should take care of the alignment without any delays. Well in a way the phasing control is a delay but it will only move/shift your signal by half a cycle (0-180). Shifting more than half a cycle is like going backwards so that setting should get you where you need to be.
> 
> Just a thought, I think it can work...



*Yes! but maybe not,* could you describe to me what phase control is? I can go into the subwoofer menu and change phase, normal/reverse. 

*Thank you, *


----------



## fcarpio

derickveliz said:


> *Yes! but maybe not,* could you describe to me what phase control is? I can go into the subwoofer menu and change phase, normal/reverse.
> 
> *Thank you, *


I am referring to a knob or a setting that will allow you to change the phase to a number between 0 and 180. What you are talking about is phase inverting, which is only 0 or 180. In my system I can do this from the remote subwoofer volume control in my sub amp.

EDIT: As far as I can tell you can only invert the phase in your P99.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFiles/Manuals/Car/DEX-P99RS_OperationManual0428.pdf


----------



## Greg200SE-R

This is an update to my time-alignment procedure when employed in:
- Vehicles with an up-front subwoofer
- Vehicles with kick panel-mounted front stage

These are independent of each other; use either or both as applicable.

*- Vehicles in which the subwoofer is installed up-front*

The rule of thumb for my method is that alignment takes place in order from low-frequency drivers to high-frequency drivers. While the alignment still begins with sub+passenger midbass, and then sub/driver midbass, the procedure will be slightly different than the original. 


*Align the sub and passenger midbass.*

The midbass is further, so it will be the reference and remain at zero delay (or constant distance, depending on your DSP functions). Delay will be adjusted for the sub. Increase delay for the sub until alignment is reached. Alignment will take place exactly as the original write-up describes; listen for the Doppler Effect and find its center, where the harmonic "noise," "garbage," or "rumble" disappears.
*Align the sub and driver-side midbass.*

Keep the SUB at the delay you determined during the previous step. For the midbass, start at zero delay and increase until aligned.
*Verify midbass alignment per original procedure. *

Isolate the driver- and passenger-side midbasses and verify alignment. Again, don't make delay adjustments when listening to both midbasses. If they don't create a solid center image, repeat previous steps until they do.
*Align midbasses with the rest of the front stage per original procedure. *

At this point, the sub and midbasses are aligned and "synced." Begin with step 3 of the original procedure to align the rest of the front stage as normal.


*- Vehicles with kick panel-mounted front stage  (midrange and/or tweeter are FURTHER away than the midbass) *

The steps below apply regardless of where your sub is installed. My original procedure assumes that the passenger midbass is door-mounted, and the furthest driver in the front stage. It also assumes that the tweeter and/or midrange are door- or sail panel-mounted, and closer to you than the midbasses. With a typical kick-panel front stage, however, the mids/tweets are mounted FURTHER than the midbass, and this alters the procedure. Note: I will describe alignment for a 3-way front stage; simply replace "midrange" with "tweeter" for 2-way. 

*Align the sub and midbasses as usual. *
*Align passenger midbass and midrange.*

The passenger midbass will remain at its predetermined delay, and delay will be adjusted for the midrange. Here is where the original write-up changes. Typically, the mid is _further_ than the midbass, so we need to REDUCE the mid's delay relative to the midbass. Begin by matching the mid's delay to the midbass. Now, decrease the mid's delay until aligned. The Doppler Effect will appear exactly as described in the original procedure.
*Repeat for driver-side midbass and midrange. Then, isolate both midranges and verify center image. *
*Align passenger mid and tweeter.*

The passenger midrange will remain at its predetermined delay, and delay will be adjusted for the tweeter. Typically, the tweet is further than the mid, so we want to "bring it in closer" by reducing the tweeter's delay relative to the mid. Match the tweeter's delay to the mid, and decrease the tweeter's delay until aligned. If the tweeter and midrange are close in proximity, very little change in delay will be needed.
*Repeat for driver-side mid and tweeter. Then, isolate both tweeters and verify center image. *

At this point, your front stage is aligned. Verify center image for entire front stage, then restore all normal settings and evaluate with music.


For those of you whose installs can make use of the above information, feel free to post feedback, suggestions and experiences. I need to point out that I no longer have an audio system with which to try the above out; I have not personally used these alternate procedures. Other members have provided valuable feedback which led to this information. Thanks for reading.


----------



## derickveliz

Ok, so I went through many issues and performed many times in different ways, I'm a little confused  but at the end I manage to understand what my HU (P99) is doing with TA,  so long story short... *now I have a super solid center image*, thanks to all of you here I learned lots of good stuff. 

I'll try to put my thoughts and experience in a graphic way so others could comment and advice on what I did wrong and how it could be better, and for other P99 owners the benefit of understanding how Pioneer achieves TA... at least how I understand it with my lack of knowledge in this hobby.

Thanks again

D.


----------



## derickveliz

derickveliz said:


> Now the funny part is when I play my favorite songs they sound really good, very natural and they sound great! but when I play tracks like the 7 drums for example my image gets screw up: I don't care really, because when I play music is much better than before.
> 
> This is my stage with the 7 drum track:
> 
> **_*_*_____*__*______*_**
> 
> D.




*BTW*

I forgot to mention that the 7 drum track now is "Perfect" incredible all 7 drums are equally spaced all across the stage.


And there are songs with 2 singers, well yes they are in the center of the stage, but you ca actually feel who is who next to each other, this is so wonderful for me. 

Thanks again.

D.


----------



## Wesayso

Glad you got it working. It really works well doesn't it?
The way I did it with my Pioneer is set the distance first to a measured value on the mid and work the sub from there. My sub is upfront too although a bit further away.


----------



## Sulley

Well I finally got a break through, I'm not finished installing my new xSoul2's but I managed to get the drivers side Mid in and powered up for a laugh. So today I tried "Aligning" the drivers side Soul mid with the subwoofer. I got my crossovers set up and muted everything else. I started to press the up button on the delay and got to about 0.9ms and thought "hmm...maybe" then got to about 1.3ms said "BINGO", got my midpoint and I heard the correlation first try! 

I'm super pumped about this, I have no idea why I couldn't hear it with my other set of mids but I really don't care, Hopefully get the passenger side installed the weekend and start tuning.


----------



## derickveliz

*This is my TA now...* still have to work out more, but point source (AKA Mids) is working very good...


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Derick and Stockley, great job

fcarpio, how's it coming along?


----------



## rodneypierce

I cant for the life of me hear ANY differential in tone or movement at all with my new HU. I have the 80PRS (came from an Eclipse CD7200MKII) and I cant for the life of me notice any difference or shift in sound. With the eclipse I could hear the sound literally going in a circle around me when messing with the TA. But not with this 80PRS.


----------



## subwoofery

rodneypierce said:


> I cant for the life of me hear ANY differential in tone or movement at all with my new HU. I have the 80PRS (came from an Eclipse CD7200MKII) and I cant for the life of me notice any difference or shift in sound. With the eclipse I could hear the sound literally going in a circle around me when messing with the TA. But not with this 80PRS.


For Pioneer HUs, 0 is the speaker that needs the most T/A (furthest) and 15904cm is the closest one to you... 
Just works differently than the CD7xxx... 

Kelvin


----------



## fcarpio

Greg200SE-R said:


> Derick and Stockley, great job
> 
> fcarpio, how's it coming along?


I am all set, thanks for asking.


----------



## rodneypierce

subwoofery said:


> For Pioneer HUs, 0 is the speaker that needs the most T/A (furthest) and 15904ms is the closest one to you...
> Just works differently than the CD7xxx...
> 
> Kelvin


The 80PRS doesnt measure in MS. Its either in inches or cm


----------



## subwoofery

rodneypierce said:


> The 80PRS doesnt measure in MS. Its either in inches or cm


Fixed  

Kelvin


----------



## Wy2quiet

The link is dead...any possibility to reup?


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Wy2quiet said:


> The link is dead...any possibility to reup?


Are you talking about the noise track link? I can't edit the post anymore. However, I found the following random link on Google in about 2 seconds... 

Audio Test Signals

This write up only calls for white or pink noise. 

Normally I hate search Nazis but I feel a bit of understanding toward them once in a while.


----------



## Wesayso

A question for you Greg, if I may:

Wouldn't this TA procedure make it easier to center the seperate tone bursts like in the http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/13888-help-my-soundstage-ate-my-windshield.html thread due to the crossover points beeing more in phase? I never really though about it before but it was way easier for me to align the tones left to right after using your method.
I had tried the above link before and after using this TA procedure. Is'nt this a great way to check your crossover slopes and phase? It might not work at all frequencies due to reflections and shorter wave lengths making every head movement vital for what you hear.
But after setting the TA I never had to change much on my left/right EQ to center seperate tones.
I have to do this over again pretty soon due to changing around my amplifiers (i had one rebuilt recently) and I'll be sure to combine both these methods to check out different slopes and TA settings to see if I can check phase at the crossover this way.
I always wanted a way to check if phase responce is good at the crossover points. We can somewhat check frequency responce but phase is much harder. Combining your TA method with FoxPro5's link above (actually someone else allready posted that before, it was mentioned before in this thread: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html) could give me the phase check right?
If you read the link above FoxPro5 mentions some frequencies being harder to align. That could be a phase anolomy right? Not saying it's always the case but when the tone has no directional que's it could be out of phase. Too bad there is so much going on in a car with reflection and diffusion and even EQ to screw up phase but it might help to get the best results.
Lately I have moved to 6 db slopes because i noticed I'd always cut the 3K and 6K bands and tried to use the crossover points using these shallow slopes and some separation between the actual crossover points to limit the amount of EQ needed with good results. Voices sounded more real to me than I ever had heard from my system before.
Just looking for clues


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Wesayso said:


> A question for you Greg, if I may:
> 
> Wouldn't this TA procedure make it easier to center the seperate tone bursts like in the http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...888-help-my-soundstage-ate-my-windshield.html thread due to the crossover points beeing more in phase? _*I never really though about it before but it was way easier for me to align the tones left to right after using your method.*_


TA should be performed prior to any EQ. You're experienced enough with setting TA by ear, that you realize this and seem to have answered your own question. If TA is _not_ optimized first, you're trying to EQ signals full of phase anomalies. These cause freq response cancellations as well as confusing spatial/directional queues. I believe EQ is the LAST thing that should be applied, especially individual L+R EQ.



Wesayso said:


> I had tried the above link before and after using this TA procedure. Is'nt this a great way to check your crossover slopes and phase? It might not work at all frequencies due to reflections and shorter wave lengths making every head movement vital for what you hear.
> *But after setting the TA I never had to change much on my left/right EQ to center seperate tones.*
> I have to do this over again pretty soon due to changing around my amplifiers (i had one rebuilt recently) and I'll be sure to combine both these methods to check out different slopes and TA settings to see if I can check phase at the crossover this way.
> I always wanted a way to check if phase responce is good at the crossover points. We can somewhat check frequency responce but phase is much harder. Combining your TA method with FoxPro5's link above (actually someone else allready posted that before, it was mentioned before in this thread: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rs/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html) could give me the phase check right?


The advantage to my method, is that it automatically optimizes overall phase - covering the entire crossover region. In fact, it optimizes phase over _any and all audible overlap_. During the tuning process, the harmonics/rumble/garbage/extra noise that you hear literally ARE the phase differences in the overlapping output. You then adjust delay till the harmonics are at their minimum (the center of the Doppler Effect). Consequently, phase problems are also at their minimum.

Notice I said overall phase. Overall, as in: all of it. Remember that there is A LOT of audible overlap between 2 drivers in their XO region, regardless of slope. Now tell me, if there is several hundred hertz of overlap, how the hell can you adjust for best phase by using a sine wave centered on a single frequency? Get one freq in phase, many others will become out of phase. I tried it, sine waves don't work. It's better to blast the entire region with sound, bring out the phase problems, and adjust till you can't hear them.



Wesayso said:


> If you read the link above FoxPro5 mentions some frequencies being harder to align. That could be a phase anolomy right? Not saying it's always the case but when the tone has no directional que's it could be out of phase. Too bad there is so much going on in a car with reflection and diffusion and even EQ to screw up phase but it might help to get the best results.
> Lately I have moved to 6 db slopes because i noticed I'd always cut the 3K and 6K bands and tried to use the crossover points using these shallow slopes and some separation between the actual crossover points to limit the amount of EQ needed with good results. Voices sounded more real to me than I ever had heard from my system before.
> Just looking for clues


I ended up doing the same thing - going to 6dB slopes and staggering the cutoff frequencies. Technically, shallower slopes achieve better phase response but in a car that doesn't mean much. Experiment by saving 2 different memory slots with different XO settings. TA both individually then A/B them to see which sounds better to you.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Wesayso said:


> I always wanted a way to check if phase responce is good at the crossover points. We can somewhat check frequency responce but phase is much harder. Combining your TA method with FoxPro5's link above (actually someone else allready posted that before, it was mentioned before in this thread: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...rs/33740-simple-way-tune-courtesy-cmusic.html) could give me the phase check right?


One more thing. Reversing driver polarity _could_ work for those without digital time delay. It's the most rudimentary form of time alignment. If you DO have digital time alignment, it is absolutely not needed.

Not to say it can't be used in conjuction with my method. My method will completely negate it and align drivers regardless, but the Doppler Effect will appear at a completely different delay setting than would otherwise be expected. It'll only complicate the process and I recommend keeping wiring in correct polarity for simplicity.


----------



## Wesayso

Greg200SE-R said:


> One more thing. Reversing driver polarity _could_ work for those without digital time delay. It's the most rudimentary form of time alignment. If you DO have digital time alignment, it is absolutely not needed.
> 
> Not to say it can't be used in conjuction with my method. My method will completely negate it and align drivers regardless, but the Doppler Effect will appear at a completely different delay setting than would otherwise be expected. It'll only complicate the process and I recommend keeping wiring in correct polarity for simplicity.


Would that work for someone wanting to use 12 db slopes at both sides? In that case swap polarity on both mids and overlap while doing TA and use 12 db slopes?


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Wesayso said:


> Would that work for someone wanting to use 12 db slopes at both sides? In that case swap polarity on both mids and overlap while doing TA and use 12 db slopes?


Put it this way: the outcome of the method will not change no matter if you wire some drivers in reverse polarity, change filter slopes or change cutoff frequencies. So go nuts, setup your system the way you want and experiment! Don't sweat the details like 12- and 24-dB phase shifts. In the end, finding the Doppler Effect and it's center will align your speakers just the same. It's automatic. 

Altering such parameters will change how the Doppler Effect appears/disappears (more or less quickly, and the how loud the harmonics are perceived), but nothing significant changes about the method. It's always about finding the center of the Doppler Effect.

And that's the beauty of it. Your ears will always be able to find that one precise point where the drivers work together, no matter what the delay setting turns out to be.


----------



## GavGT

Tried this method out briefly now i have an active 2 way system (+sub). I found it very difficult to hear the distortion changing when delaying the furthest mid which is in the passenger kick. Then i realised that the sub fires through the ski pass which puts it at the same distance or maybe an inch or two closer to me. I have the Alpine 9855r which has left and right sub TA and as far as i'm aware cannot both be adjusted at the same time. I proceeded to delay the left sub (because its the left mb im ta'ing it with) and straight away heard the change in pitch of the rumbling. I set it where the noise disappeared, then adjusted the right sub output ta to the same point. As i did this the noise came back  Any thoughts on what could be going on here and how to sort it out?

I also tried to ta the passenger mid to tweeter. I definately heard a pitch change straight away, but couldnt settle on a point where the distortion had disappeared. At this point my ears were toast so gave up.

Any help appreciated!


----------



## Greg200SE-R

GavGT said:


> Tried this method out briefly now i have an active 2 way system (+sub). I found it very difficult to hear the distortion changing when delaying the furthest mid which is in the passenger kick. Then i realised that the sub fires through the ski pass which puts it at the same distance or maybe an inch or two closer to me. I have the Alpine 9855r which has left and right sub TA and as far as i'm aware cannot both be adjusted at the same time. I proceeded to delay the left sub (because its the left mb im ta'ing it with) and straight away heard the change in pitch of the rumbling. I set it where the noise disappeared, then adjusted the right sub output ta to the same point. As i did this the noise came back  Any thoughts on what could be going on here and how to sort it out?
> 
> I also tried to ta the passenger mid to tweeter. I definately heard a pitch change straight away, but couldnt settle on a point where the distortion had disappeared. At this point my ears were toast so gave up.
> 
> Any help appreciated!


Perhaps other Alpine users can chime in. I never really worked with Alpine's sub TA ("Bass focus," as it used to be called). All I remember was that changing the sub delay actually affected all other channels.

In the meantime, my suggestion is to use only "left" or "right" sub outputs, not both. Adjust sub output as needed, and leave the other at default.


----------



## GavGT

Greg200SE-R said:


> Perhaps other Alpine users can chime in. I never really worked with Alpine's sub TA ("Bass focus," as it used to be called). All I remember was that changing the sub delay actually affected all other channels.
> 
> In the meantime, my suggestion is to use only "left" or "right" sub outputs, not both. Adjust sub output as needed, and leave the other at default.


Thanks, i hope someone knows a way around the problem. Its not a bass focus system, its just the 9855r's 6 way network putting out a stereo L/R sub output in active mode. 

Gav


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## Wesayso

Can you reverse your method? Leave the sub at a fixed delay and change the mid?


----------



## rodneypierce

I STILL cant get this to work. LOL. Its driving me crazy. I cant hear any noticeable change or doppler effect. Perhaps Its just my hearing? Im not sure. Ill continue to try and get it, as I think its well worth the effort once I get it right!

With the Eclipse CD7200 I had, I could literally hear it sounding like the point of sound was moving around my head in a circle as I adjusted the delay to each speaker. This pioneer, not so much at all.


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## Wesayso

You do know the pioneer uses the distance to the speaker where as most others use a time delay setting?


----------



## rodneypierce

Wesayso said:


> You do know the pioneer uses the distance to the speaker where as most others use a time delay setting?


yes. But there should still be a discernible difference when adjusting the distance up and down, no?


----------



## Wesayso

Í'd expect that, yes... with only the two mids playing you should be able to steer the sound left and right.


----------



## Sulley

How would this method work for somebody without a subwoofer? Say a 3-way with 8" midbass in the doors? Does the furthest driver from the listening position become zero? How could you match the left and right sides with no mono reference point??

(V) ( ;,,; ) (V)


----------



## GavGT

Wesayso said:


> Can you reverse your method? Leave the sub at a fixed delay and change the mid?


Hmmm...never really thought of that. I could go a little past where i thought i had it spot on, set the other sub channel the same, then adjust the furthest mid. I'll give it a go

cheers


----------



## Wesayso

stockley.rod said:


> How would this method work for somebody without a subwoofer? Say a 3-way with 8" midbass in the doors? Does the furthest driver from the listening position become zero? How could you match the left and right sides with no mono reference point??
> 
> (V) ( ;,,; ) (V)


Yea you are right. The speaker furthest away is your point of reference.
To match left right I'd pick the mids. Adjust one side (the far side / passenger side). After that play only the mids and adjust ta on the driver side mid. You should notice the stage moving left-right or vice versa. But you can also hear the doppler effect.
Get the point near the center of the car that is the most quiet. Then adjust midbass and tweeter one at the time to align with the mid on the driver side.


----------



## Spyke

This might keep me from setting my car on fire and starting over. Thanks for the write up.:thumbsup:


----------



## Spyke

Correct me if i'm wrong but if my hu's time delay is in cm(distance in general), wouldn't having it set to 0 be the setting with the most delay? I would think that setting it to max distance would be the setting for 0ms of delay.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Spyke said:


> Correct me if i'm wrong but if my hu's time delay is in cm(distance in general), wouldn't having it set to 0 be the setting with the most delay? I would think that setting it to max distance would be the setting for 0ms of delay.


You're correct. See quote below, it is just as you suspect.



Wesayso said:


> I also have a Pioneer HU and yes, you are right. Set the sub at max and work your way back from that. You could try and measure the distance to sub and use that number.
> I have my sub set at 210 cm (it's in the front) and start with mids at 210 and keep subtracting distance till I find the right spot. That would work about the same as setting the sub to zero delay. (Max distance is zero delay, every speaker that is closer gets delayed more)


----------



## IrishChamp

This is very cool info! I've been playing with it all day. I have a drz9255, so after some failure and thought I started with all TA at max and worked back. I got ok results, tweeters were much brighter after finishing Mid range was a little cleaner but my imaging was still wacky. After some more thought and reading I realized that because I have a truck the sub is the closest speaker right against my back, passenger side tweeter the furthest being in the kick panel. passenger mid next followed by passenger low......
How do I do this......??! 
I'm running 4 way active. 
Thanks


----------



## Spyke

IrishChamp said:


> This is very cool info! I've been playing with it all day. I have a drz9255, so after some failure and thought I started with all TA at max and worked back. I got ok results, tweeters were much brighter after finishing Mid range was a little cleaner but my imaging was still wacky. After some more thought and reading I realized that because I have a truck the sub is the closest speaker right against my back, passenger side tweeter the furthest being in the kick panel. passenger mid next followed by passenger low......
> How do I do this......??!
> I'm running 4 way active.
> Thanks


I'm not an expert but I have a similar situation. In mine the pass side midbass is the furthest away. Think of an overhead shot of your car, picture where you are sitting and where all of your speakers are in relation to you. When you delay, you are moving speakers away from you. With everything at eqaul distances it's a pretty funny looking overhead view. So to answer your question. Since your whole right stage is the furthest away I would align the pass side tweet to mid(assuming thats the next furthest) and then the mid to woofer. Then align the subwoofer to the woofer, don't adjust the woofer. Then on the drivers side align the woofer to the sub, the mid to the woofer, and the tweeter to the mid. It doesnt matter which speaker on the driverside is closest of furthest since the will all need to be delayed in relation to the sub. Good luck.


----------



## Spyke

Can anyone give advice on whether the sub is facing towards you or away. My sub is in the trunk facing away from me and I was wondering if I should reverse the phase before I start. Thanks.


----------



## IrishChamp

So you're saying; align all the furthest (passenger side) speakers to each other starting with the furthest, then align the sub to the last passenger side speaker and then align the drivers side bass to the sub and then mid to that bass and tweet to the mid? 
I was under the impression you were supposed to align drivers back and forth across from each other not on the same side? 
Thanks!



Spyke said:


> I'm not an expert but I have a similar situation. In mine the pass side midbass is the furthest away. Think of an overhead shot of your car, picture where you are sitting and where all of your speakers are in relation to you. When you delay, you are moving speakers away from you. With everything at eqaul distances it's a pretty funny looking overhead view. So to answer your question. Since your whole right stage is the furthest away I would align the pass side tweet to mid(assuming thats the next furthest) and then the mid to woofer. Then align the subwoofer to the woofer, don't adjust the woofer. Then on the drivers side align the woofer to the sub, the mid to the woofer, and the tweeter to the mid. It doesnt matter which speaker on the driverside is closest of furthest since the will all need to be delayed in relation to the sub. Good luck.


----------



## Wesayso

Taken from the first post:



Greg200SE-R said:


> *Introduction*
> 
> While playing pink and/or white noise through system,
> 
> Isolate sub and passenger side midbass (mute all other channels). Align drivers.
> Isolate sub and driver side midbass. Align drivers.
> Isolate driver and passenger midbasses. Verify time alignment and center image.
> Isolate passenger side midbass and tweeter. Align drivers.
> Isolate driver side midbass and tweeter. Align drivers.
> Isolate driver and passenger tweeters. Verify tweeter alignment and center image.
> Verify front stage alignment.
> Normal up the system and evaluate.
> Notice that alignment takes place between 2 non-like drivers at a time (sub/mid, mid/tweeter), and verification is done using like drivers (both mids, or both tweeters).


As you see, you align drivers on the same side. You check the alignment between opposite sides...


----------



## IrishChamp

Ah yes, I see, steps 1 & 2 put me in that train of thought. 
Thanks. 



Wesayso said:


> Taken from the first post:
> 
> 
> 
> As you see, you align drivers on the same side. You check the alignment between opposite sides...


----------



## Spyke

IrishChamp said:


> So you're saying; align all the furthest (passenger side) speakers to each other starting with the furthest, then align the sub to the last passenger side speaker and then align the drivers side bass to the sub and then mid to that bass and tweet to the mid?


Yes sir



IrishChamp said:


> I was under the impression you were supposed to align drivers back and forth across from each other not on the same side?
> Thanks!


No sir


----------



## IrishChamp

Thank you sir!  
:2thumbsup:




Spyke said:


> Yes sir
> 
> 
> 
> No sir


----------



## supermaxx123

I'm using a rockford fosgate 3sixty.2 and cannot for the life of me get this to work. I've read it about 10x now, spent over 5hrs + total time sitting in the car(thank you power supply) only to listen to music and start over. Any tips? The delay on each speaker is in inches and can only adjust +/- 2" at a time. The sub is right behind me, reg cab truck, and the sub has no t/a adjusment. Should i just get a tape measure out and try setting it that way? 
Probably what I'll do next seeing as nothing has really worked for me.


----------



## Spyke

supermaxx123 said:


> I'm using a rockford fosgate 3sixty.2 and cannot for the life of me get this to work. I've read it about 10x now, spent over 5hrs + total time sitting in the car(thank you power supply) only to listen to music and start over. Any tips? The delay on each speaker is in inches and can only adjust +/- 2" at a time. The sub is right behind me, reg cab truck, and the sub has no t/a adjusment. Should i just get a tape measure out and try setting it that way?
> Probably what I'll do next seeing as nothing has really worked for me.


Since you have delay in distance you need to start with all the channels at the max setting= no delay. You don't start with zero inches. Also since the sub is not the farthest away you need to start with the pass side midbass(which prob is the farthest) Oh...If the sub doesn't have delay then this won't work for you. You could just do the measurement thing and it should help. Then just swap phase on the sub til it sounds best.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

I love that this thread is becoming self-sustaining. Thanks everyone for trying the procedure and for leaving your comments. 

TO ALL NEWCOMERS TO THIS THREAD:

If you have trouble with this procedure, or have specific questions - chances are, others have had the same setback and help has already been provided within this thread. I know the thread's beginning to grow in length, but time invested in reading through it will answer your questions.


----------



## bgcontract

Hi,

I can't seem to locate or identify the doppler or sound as I increase delay. I know how to tune a guitar so I am familiar with the doppler effect but I just can't seem to find it within the pink noise. Does anybody have any advise or tricks... or ANYTHING that will help me identify the point at which the both speakers are time aligned!! Thanks for any help. I must have listened for an hour trying to "spot" a pattern and I focused in on the lows and highs within the pink noise.


----------



## leogun

Hi BG
The answer is on the post above you &#55357;&#56842;
Based on my method:
I always isolate the freq between two driver within the same freq
I.e. MB 250 - 500 and MR 250 - 500
I found it easier to hear the noise change
Happy trying &#55357;&#56841;


----------



## dylan199

So in reading all 9 pages I come to the conclusion that I need to set my sub to max distance (300cm) and go down from there. It goes from 30cm all the way to 300cm. Does that make sense?


----------



## Spyke

dylan199 said:


> So in reading all 9 pages I come to the conclusion that I need to set my sub to max distance (300cm) and go down from there. It goes from 30cm all the way to 300cm. Does that make sense?


If your sub is the furthest speaker from your listening position, then yes. Setting it to 300cm would be the zero delay setting. Remember to set all of your speakers to 300cm and work "backwards" while not touching the sub delay.


----------



## dylan199

Spyke said:


> If your sub is the furthest speaker from your listening position, then yes. Setting it to 300cm would be the zero delay setting. Remember to set all of your speakers to 300cm and work "backwards" while not touching the sub delay.


Thanks for the reply! I'll work on it tonight.


----------



## Spyke

Has anyone with ta that measures in distance instead of time had better luck by setting everything to halfway(range from 0-132/setting to 66) before starting. I kept having the problem where the doppler effect would continue to decrease though the entire range of ta adjustment. For example, when I would be adjusting my tweeter I would start to increase delay and the pitch would start to fall. The problem is that it would continue to fall until I got to full delay(there would be no peak or trough). I concluded that the peaks were at the ends of the adjustment extremes. By starting with everything in the middle I was able to hear definite peaks or troughs. I hope i'm not the only one with this problem.


----------



## Spyke

TAMUmpower said:


> I found it easier to just put on something with a good kick drum and bass hits. I used Alicia Keys. And I just started delaying the front mid basses until I couldn't hear the sub anymore. Basically the kick location will focus to the front an it's really easy to hear the improvement.
> 
> I wasn't really able to use this threads method for the mid to sub delay either. That's why I just use music.


After countless hours of trying pink/white noise I decided to use music instead. 1/2 an hour later i'm . The method itself is really good though.


----------



## leogun

Spyke said:


> After countless hours of trying pink/white noise I decided to use music instead. 1/2 an hour later i'm . The method itself is really good though.


did you use the pink noise from page 1?
i found that not all pink noises can be used


----------



## bgcontract

The link to the noise files comes back as "forbidden"; therefore can not be accessed....???


----------



## Spyke

leogun said:


> did you use the pink noise from page 1?
> i found that not all pink noises can be used


Hmm, interesting. I was always under the impression that pink noise was pink noise, almost sure of it. I'll do some research though.


----------



## ErinH

Spyke said:


> Hmm, interesting. I was always under the impression that pink noise was pink noise, almost sure of it. I'll do some research though.


Correlated vs uncorrelated. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


----------



## Spyke

bikinpunk said:


> Correlated vs uncorrelated.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


Learn something new everyday. So which should be used for this method?


----------



## Wesayso

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/36121-pink-noise-correlated-vs-uncorrelated.html


----------



## Driven Audio Tony

Does anyone have a link to the pink noise files from the first page, I would like to check them out.


----------



## ErinH

been meaning to post an idea for a long time now but never did. Finally put it to the test tonight. You can see my results here:
http://medleysmusings.com/subwoofers-and-time-alignment-in-the-car/


I hope this helps.

- Erin


----------



## Melodic Acoustic

bikinpunk said:


> been meaning to post an idea for a long time now but never did. Finally put it to the test tonight. You can see my results here:
> Subwoofers and Time Alignment in the Car | Medley's Musings
> 
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> - Erin


Nice Erin, I like your findings/method. :rockon:


----------



## leogun

Thanks for the tips Erin
I'll try it tonight


----------



## Wesayso

bikinpunk said:


> been meaning to post an idea for a long time now but never did. Finally put it to the test tonight. You can see my results here:
> Subwoofers and Time Alignment in the Car | Medley's Musings
> 
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> - Erin


Did you use one mic position or average several positions?


----------



## ErinH

One location.


----------



## ///MJay

WOW!!!!! I really don't know what else to say...

Spent a little time setting the delay on my mid construction install. The results were so amazing I spent the entire night playing all my favorite tracks just to see what I have been missing all these years. Already this is the best sounding system I have built to date. I wish I had taken the time to learn more about the time alignment years ago when I picked up the Alpine in the first place. 


Thank you OP and all others for the helpful information.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

///MJay said:


> WOW!!!!! I really don't know what else to say...
> 
> Spent a little time setting the delay on my mid construction install. The results were so amazing I spent the entire night playing all my favorite tracks just to see what I have been missing all these years. Already this is the best sounding system I have built to date. I wish I had taken the time to learn more about the time alignment years ago when I picked up the Alpine in the first place.
> 
> 
> Thank you OP and all others for the helpful information.


Good job. Everybody knows a vehicle interior is a bad environment for a sound system, but few realize just how bad it is. All you've done is remove some of those negative effects.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

bikinpunk said:


> been meaning to post an idea for a long time now but never did. Finally put it to the test tonight. You can see my results here:
> Subwoofers and Time Alignment in the Car | Medley's Musings
> 
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> - Erin


I've learned a lot from you on DIYMA, Erin, and take it as a compliment that you would post this in my thread. However, the very point of my method is to eliminate the microphone from time delay tuning, and to use your ears instead.


----------



## ErinH

My bad...


----------



## The Reverend

To adapt this for a subless two way system does this make sense? 

1. Center midbass image
2. Isolate passenger side midbass and tweeter. Align drivers.
3. Isolate driver side midbass and tweeter. Align drivers.
4. Isolate driver and passenger tweeters. Verify tweeter alignment and center image.
5. Verify front stage alignment.
6. Normal up the system and evaluate.

At what point would I set the gains to match levels between channels? It seems like if that isn't done first the stage will pull to one side.


----------



## storm

I know it's been mentioned before but I wished to seek clarification for Pioneer HUs... The Pioneer HU measures TA in distance i.e, cm. What I've done was to leave the sub at 0cm since it is the furthest driver. I TA the passenger MB with the sub by increasing the distance from 0cm upwards until I zeroed onto the Doppler effect. Is this correct? 

Or should I start TA with the MB setting at maximum distance and work downwards?

Another query is what happens if we settle for the Doppler effect which happens not to be the first one? Are the drivers still phase aligned but not optimally?


----------



## Wesayso

If your sub is furthest away you should set it at 400 cm. 400 cm is futher away than 0 cm right? Just take a tape measurement and set it roughly to the distances you measure. It is the distance to the speaker you want to put into the HU. Not the amount of delay in cm.

I'll be honest and say the method Bikinpunk mentioned in this post: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1675034-post217.html was easyer for me for the sub/midbass transition. Sorry Greg :shrug:. I have tried it on the woofer tweeter too and it is a bit more predictable to get what I want faster. All it took was a cheap Radioshack meter. The Noise method gave me excellent results though, close to the mic method. But I guess I am officially converted to the quicker method of Bikinpunk. :blush:


----------



## brett

i tried this last night and, like others, had a hard time hearing the changes between the sub and midbasses. however, it was plainly evident between the others! let me start off by saying that my setup is a little 'over the top'. i'm currently running a four way front stage (check my signature). however, the kicks and the doors are sharing the same dsp channel from my rf 360.3 (love this unit, btw!) at which point i can further separate them via the crossovers on my amps thus allowing my morel 8's to play a little lower and my vifa pl's 7's to play a little higher. as of now, i don't have any noticeable problems, but i will continue to tune.

i will say that i used the method with the supplied setup disc fromt the 360 which had pink noise tracks. what i found is that you can get away with using uncorrelated pink noise when ta'ing each side but you have to use correlated pink noise when ta'ing left and right sides. also, this method is remarkably simple but it wasn't too far off from what i was already doing as i only tune by ear anyway. another thing that i noticed is that after ta'ing all channels with the levels set the same i played some music and felt like i had to readjust them. when i did this and went back through with the pink noise, the 'sweet spots' did deviate a little bit. as of right now i've found it to be really helpful, however, due to the complexity of my system (oh, and im using rears as well!) i will probably spend alot more time in there.


----------



## derickveliz

storm said:


> I know it's been mentioned before but I wished to seek clarification for Pioneer HUs... The Pioneer HU measures TA in distance i.e, cm.




*Furthest speaker gets zero (0) delay AKA 394.75cm* 

For subs in the trunk that is your furthest speaker AKA 394.75cm


In my case I have the subwoofer up front so my furthest speaker is my right mid.

*This is my TA as of today *(top secrete!... lol just kidding)


----------



## ErinH

Yep. That's right. Drives nuts, too. When I built my spreadsheet I had to do all sorts of crap to get it to spit out the values in the form needed. 

And I STILL catch myself having to think about which way to move the delay when I need to adjust something. Lol.


----------



## quality_sound

This is how Alpine does it as well. Maybe it's because I'm left-handed but this way always made sense to me.


----------



## quality_sound

Is that the P99RS display?


----------



## Wesayso

derickveliz said:


> *Furthest speaker gets zero (0) delay AKA 394.75cm*
> 
> For subs in the trunk that is your furthest speaker AKA 394.75cm
> 
> 
> In my case I have the subwoofer up front so my furthest speaker is my left mid.
> 
> *This is my TA as of today *(top secrete!... lol just kidding)


It would have been just as easy to type in the distance to that far away speaker and go from there. It kinda gives you an easyer view if you do that.
I know how far the tweeter is from the woofer and I know it's closer to me and that way I can relate to the actual number on the screen. Quite an easy way to use it and the way Pioneer intended it. I pick one speaker that stay's at the same position and go from there. The actual TA numbers are not at the measured positions but still tell the story where the speakers are. It gives me a quick clue if something is not right. Like the tweeter is at greater distance than the woofer or the right side is at less of a distance than the closer right side (!). I messed up the tweeter TA before even using the close to actual distance settings and it still took me a day to find that error hahaha. But one look at the numbers should tell me the tweeter is closer and not further etc. I usually mess up if I think too much in delay instead of distance.

Still a bit surpriced your left mid is furthest away. Is your steering wheel on the right?


----------



## derickveliz

quality_sound said:


> Is that the P99RS display?


*YES!*

.


----------



## derickveliz

Wesayso said:


> Still a bit surpriced your left mid is furthest away. Is your steering wheel on the right?


I'm sorry, that's a typo. it's my Right Mid the furthest. Sorry :blush:


.


----------



## derickveliz

bikinpunk said:


> Yep. That's right. Drives nuts, too. When I built my spreadsheet I had to do all sorts of crap to get it to spit out the values in the form needed.
> 
> And I STILL catch myself having to think about which way to move the delay when I need to adjust something. Lol.


After a while on the P99 I realized *DOWN moves the center image RIGHT and UP moves it to the LEFT*

.


----------



## derickveliz

derickveliz said:


> * In my case I have the subwoofer up front so my furthest speaker is my right mid.
> 
> This is my TA as of today (top secrete!... lol just kidding)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


*



This is how my set up is set from TA above...










.*


----------



## Greg200SE-R

The Reverend said:


> To adapt this for a subless two way system does this make sense?
> 
> 1. Center midbass image
> 2. Isolate passenger side midbass and tweeter. Align drivers.
> 3. Isolate driver side midbass and tweeter. Align drivers.
> 4. Isolate driver and passenger tweeters. Verify tweeter alignment and center image.
> 5. Verify front stage alignment.
> 6. Normal up the system and evaluate.
> 
> At what point would I set the gains to match levels between channels? It seems like if that isn't done first the stage will pull to one side.


Subless 2-way system, I like it - simple and pure. Is it minimalist by design or by necessity? I once thought about building such a system, but never got around to it. My method uses the sub as a reference for all other drivers' delays, and never accounted for sub-less systems. However, I would go about it just as you described. The difficult part will be getting the two midbasses aligned without the common reference. It will take trial+error to get right.

My method always involves aligning two unlike drivers (sub/midbass, mid/tweeter, etc). The reason for this is so that when you play the pink/white noise, there is overlapping output ONLY in the crossover region between them. The X-over region is where the indicators for time alignment are most obvious (and phase problems particularly troublesome). With two, like drivers, the overlap is 100% and there won't be a clear indicator (Doppler effect) that will make itself apparent and tell you when they are in phase.

One part of my method holds true, though. The furthest, low-frequency driver (your passenger mid bass) will remain at zero delay. Begin alignment by adjusting the driver side delay till you get a centered image. The problem is that you may think you hear a centered image, then adjust delay a few steps, and then hear it centered again... it will happen over and over. Which one is the real one? I spent lots of time trying to determine, but never could. There's no organized pattern that will emerge, and nothing that indicates when phase is correct.

I do, however, have a theory you may want to try. Treat the passenger side midbass as a woofer, and the driver side as a mid, then follow the original method as written. Use a low-pass filter, say 300Hz, on the far driver. Use a 300Hz high-pass at the closer driver. Listen for the Doppler effect to appear in the 300Hz region. Experiment with different frequencies and amounts of overlap to bring out the Doppler effect. I'd be very interested to hear your experience with this theory. 

To answer your question about levels, they are not critical at all. The only importance is matching the levels of two isolated drivers when aligning - and even then, they just have to be ballpark close. Adjusting levels after time aligning will not require changes to delay settings; two drivers are in phase no matter how loud they play. When the brain processes imaging/staging, it will utilize phase information much more effectively than level differences. It's strange, but you'll understand when you hear it. In fact, after time aligning you'll find that levels will likely need tweaking as compared to before, because you aren't competing with nearly as many phase problems (and therefore freq response anomalies) anymore. Levels _will_ affect the perceived stage width so feel free to adjust to your preference. The center image will remain locked regardless because of the time alignment.

Good luck


----------



## turbo5upra

tagging for later!


----------



## BowDown

turbo5upra said:


> tagging for later!


I suggest the flip phase method personally. This worked decent but I got better results with the other. 



Posted from my Samsung Galaxy S III 32gb via tapatalk 2.


----------



## tnbubba

burp.. er is that bump?


----------



## HTX

nice


----------



## mojozoom

If you're working with a 3sixty.2 you may struggle to find the sweet spot using this method, as there is only 5'-0" of delay available from the interface.

The wavelength associated with the crossover point you select may be much geater than 5'. Depending on the phase shifts from the various filters you may have in play, it can shift you outside the available delay window. 

With the 65 hz crossover point I use the wavelength is 15'-10", so you can see how hard this could be. Even flipping polarity on the sub is only going to help by 1/2 wavelength, or 7'-1 1", which still might be out of reach.

You could get lucky, but in my case I needed 6'-0" on the passenger side and 7'-6" on the drivers side. The results are epic and definately the biggest breakthough in SQ I've ever had in my setup, and this thread was the driving force that got me to dig into it. Thanks Greg!

If you're still using a 3sixty.2 and need more than 5'-0" of delay feel free to pm me. If there's enough interest I'll put together a thread on it.


----------



## shtoops

ROCK. FLIPPIN. SOLID. This just brought my system to a new level. Holy legatia.


----------



## reker13

mojozoom said:


> If you're working with a 3sixty.2 you may struggle to find the sweet spot using this method, as there is only 5'-0" of delay available from the interface.
> 
> The wavelength associated with the crossover point you select may be much geater than 5'. Depending on the phase shifts from the various filters you may have in play, it can shift you outside the available delay window.
> 
> With the 65 hz crossover point I use the wavelength is 15'-10", so you can see how hard this could be. Even flipping polarity on the sub is only going to help by 1/2 wavelength, or 7'-1 1", which still might be out of reach.
> 
> You could get lucky, but in my case I needed 6'-0" on the passenger side and 7'-6" on the drivers side. The results are epic and definately the biggest breakthough in SQ I've ever had in my setup, and this thread was the driving force that got me to dig into it. Thanks Greg!
> 
> If you're still using a 3sixty.2 and need more than 5'-0" of delay feel free to pm me. If there's enough interest I'll put together a thread on it.


As of now, I have T/A setup by physically measuring the distance of all speakers to the driver's head. (tweets/mids in a two-way active) Then, I subtract the greater distances on the passenger side from the shorter distances on the drivers side. This gives me a net number to delay the passenger side tweet and another delay for the mid. Therefore, as of now, I have zero delay on the driver side and the net delay (drivers side minus passenger side) to delay the passenger side. It sounds good and is relatively centered although not rock as vocals wander from left to right and the imaging sounds centered high but on the rear view mirror not out on the hood centered like I want. Reading through this thread, I realize my methods are very flawed so I tried the OP instructions but...

I have a 3sixty.2 and am having problems hearing the doppler effect at all but have only tried this method once so far. Will try swapping polarity on the subs and trying again. Right now, all i hear is pink noise with no change in pitch up or down going from max delay to no delay either quick or slowly.  Think I had crossovers enabled too....need to turn them off i think. Suggestions advice?


----------



## mpednault

Yes, I searched AND googled for pink noise track to use this method since the one on the first post isn't available for download. Anyone have a download link for a pink noise track, white noise and frequency sweep so I can try this out?


----------



## Notloudenuf

AmpGuts.com - Test Tones

You have to register for those however...
But it's free
http://www.caraudioclassifieds.org/forum/register.php?subscriptionid=-1


----------



## mpednault

I have a CACO account but can't get the ampguts test tones for free........... How!?! 

EDIT: NEVERMIND! I figured it out.... Thanks for those!


----------



## Vivid

I just noticed this thread and have been testing the method for a couple of times now. I'm using a Pioneer 80prs from which I set the delay in cm. At first I couldn't hear anything when testing with sub and passenger mid. I then tested with passenger mid and tweeter with both delays set to max (400cm) first. Here's what I noticed: when I started to add delay to the tweeter quickly, I noticed a clear pattern which was occurring very frequently. I then started to locate the midpoint of the first pattern and found that at 390cm, the extra noise disappeared. Then I started looking into the next ones and found these spots: 377.5cm, 366.25cm, 342.50cm and so on. All of the quiet areas are only 2 steps wide (one step is 1.25cm). 

Could someone comment if I'm listening to the right stuff or not? I'm curious about the first spot as I understood that that is the one that should be used, but it's only 10cm delay. Previously I have had around 40-50cm of delay between the mid and the tweeter and noticed that many people here also have similar kind of delay. So am I supposed to set delay of only 10cm or am I completely lost with the method?

After practicing with mid/tweet, I returned back to the sub and passenger mid. I'm still having problems with hearing the effect. Based on my practice, I however did think that I heard some spot where the background rumble was a little more quiet. It's really hard to determine the points where the sound changes, but I ended up with values 172.50cm and 138.75cm. So I took the midpoint of those and set it as the delay to the passenger mid (156.25cm). Does that look ok, meaning the distance and the width of the area? I had little time to listen to the drivers side mid and couldn't locate the area yet. I have to keep on trying. 

Any comments are appreciated.


----------



## captainobvious

mpednault said:


> Yes, I searched AND googled for pink noise track to use this method since the one on the first post isn't available for download. Anyone have a download link for a pink noise track, white noise and frequency sweep so I can try this out?



I'm quite sure you've found what you needed at this point, but it's worth pointing out for others. Check out these discs. They are an invaluable resource for tuning.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...dio-discussion/129259-autosound-2000-cds.html


----------



## captainobvious

To the OP, thanks for posting this info and sharing your method. I'm in the process of a complete system re-tune and will certainly give your method a shot. 

I'll check back in with results.


----------



## Neil_J

I just did a retune last night based off of this method, and the result was night and day. After training my ears a bit, I can definitely hear the harmonic effects he describes and can successfully get through the whole procedure as long as the drivers are playing around the same frequency ranges. My stage is now centered, my bass is tighter, and my tonality is better, requiring less equalization.

I know the OP hasn't logged in since at least January, but I'm glad his method described in this thread is still helping so many, all these years later.


----------



## captainobvious

I was trying to find the in phase point between sub and midbass to start but am having a hard time hearing the "effect". I'm sure it's easier with other drivers in the higher frequency ranges.


----------



## calebkhill

I can't hear the rise and fall in pitch between my passenger midbass and midrange... crossed at 250hz


----------



## MacLeod

bikinpunk said:


> been meaning to post an idea for a long time now but never did. Finally put it to the test tonight. You can see my results here:
> http://medleysmusings.com/subwoofers-and-time-alignment-in-the-car/
> 
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> - Erin


Was going thru this for the first time and found this little gem. Gotta hand it to ya Erin, this is pretty ingenious. I don't have any measuring equipment so have to do it by ear (and can't seem to hear the Doppler effect Greg is talking about with pink noise) and while it's harder at the sub frequencies, it's very easy to do in the upper end. I played a test tone at my mid/tweet crossover point, left side only with the tweeter out of phase. By adding delay to the tweeter I could hear the tone get louder and then quieter (I had to turn my head slightly to hear it). I left it at the quietest setting and tested it by flipping the tweeter back to normal phase. In phase it was much louder and quieter out of phase. 

For some reason tho I couldn't hear a big enough difference at sub frequencies. I could tell it "change" but not really quieter or louder. I'll try again later and see if I can figure something out. 

So Erin and Greg are definitely on to something here. And both methods kinda go hand in hand because Erin's method can be done by ear by listening to the same cues Greg is talking about. By having one driver out of phase and listening for the cancellation is easier to detect and easier to test because all your have to do is switch the one driver in and out of phase and if it's louder in my phase, you should be on it. 

Sent from my Galaxy Note 2.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Vivid said:


> I just noticed this thread and have been testing the method for a couple of times now. I'm using a Pioneer 80prs from which I set the delay in cm. At first I couldn't hear anything when testing with sub and passenger mid. I then tested with passenger mid and tweeter with both delays set to max (400cm) first. Here's what I noticed: when I started to add delay to the tweeter quickly, I noticed a clear pattern which was occurring very frequently. I then started to locate the midpoint of the first pattern and found that at 390cm, the extra noise disappeared. Then I started looking into the next ones and found these spots: 377.5cm, 366.25cm, 342.50cm and so on. All of the quiet areas are only 2 steps wide (one step is 1.25cm).
> 
> Could someone comment if I'm listening to the right stuff or not? I'm curious about the first spot as I understood that that is the one that should be used, but it's only 10cm delay. Previously I have had around 40-50cm of delay between the mid and the tweeter and noticed that many people here also have similar kind of delay. So am I supposed to set delay of only 10cm or am I completely lost with the method?
> 
> After practicing with mid/tweet, I returned back to the sub and passenger mid. I'm still having problems with hearing the effect. Based on my practice, I however did think that I heard some spot where the background rumble was a little more quiet. It's really hard to determine the points where the sound changes, but I ended up with values 172.50cm and 138.75cm. So I took the midpoint of those and set it as the delay to the passenger mid (156.25cm). Does that look ok, meaning the distance and the width of the area? I had little time to listen to the drivers side mid and couldn't locate the area yet. I have to keep on trying.
> 
> Any comments are appreciated.


OP here. You're doing it right. Every single system is different, but 10cm doesn't sound unusual to me at all for tweeter delay. What will tell you once and for all if you're correct, is that the "repeating pattern" will exhibit the Doppler effect. For example, if represented by numbers, the Doppler effect will rise and drop in frequency like this: 4-3-2-(1)-2-3-4 OR 1-2-3-(4)-3-2-1. Find the midpoint, and you're at optimal alignment. See upcoming post for more info on sub/mid.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

More info for those that are having trouble aligning sub/midbass. First, understand what makes the sub/midbass alignment so difficult: you need to hit the delay key many times to reveal the Doppler effect. Consequently, you can't hear a difference in sound each time you press the delay button. For example, aligning the mid/tweeter may occur like this:

*5-4-3-2-(1)-2-3-4-5*

Where 5 to 1 represents the Doppler effect getting lower in frequency with each delay step, and 1 to 5 represents a rising frequency. The midpoint (1) represents optimal alignment. Now, in contrast, the sub/mid bass alignment might look like this:

*20-19-18-17-16-15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-(1)-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20*

In short, the process is much more “spread out” at low frequencies; this is why it's so difficult to hear changes. With this in mind, here are some setup tips to make the Doppler effect easier to hear. During alignment, play the sub and mid bass full-range for maximum bandwidth overlap. More overlap = stronger Doppler effect. Next, adjust sub and/or mid bass levels so that the rumble from each are roughly the same volume. Now turn up the HU volume pretty loud, to make the Doppler effect easier to hear. If your mid bass is straining, apply a 50/60Hz high pass to cut low bass. The car should be off so as not to add its own low frequencies to the mix. Now adjust mid bass delay _quickly_, to make frequency changes more apparent. In doing so, the pattern may occur more like this:

*20-16-12-8-4-2-(1)-2-4-8-12-16-20*

First things first, you just want to FIND the pattern. Once you do, slowly and methodically find the midpoint; count the number of delay steps in the pattern, and divide by 2. Once you're successful, further refine your alignment by reducing the amount of sub/mid bass frequency overlap. With practice, you will be able to align them with their normal crossover frequencies - and this is when you will realize the full benefit of the method. The results are well worth the effort.


----------



## leogun

Great tips mate
i will try it tonight


----------



## Bluenote

Greg200SE-R said:


> More info for those that are having trouble aligning sub/midbass. First, understand what makes the sub/midbass alignment so difficult: you need to hit the delay key many times to reveal the Doppler effect. Consequently, you can't hear a difference in sound each time you press the delay button. For example, aligning the mid/tweeter may occur like this:
> 
> *5-4-3-2-(1)-2-3-4-5*
> 
> Where 5 to 1 represents the Doppler effect getting lower in frequency with each delay step, and 1 to 5 represents a rising frequency. The midpoint (1) represents optimal alignment. Now, in contrast, the sub/mid bass alignment might look like this:
> 
> *20-19-18-17-16-15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-(1)-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20*
> 
> In short, the process is much more “spread out” at low frequencies; this is why it's so difficult to hear changes. With this in mind, here are some setup tips to make the Doppler effect easier to hear. During alignment, play the sub and mid bass full-range for maximum bandwidth overlap. More overlap = stronger Doppler effect. Next, adjust sub and/or mid bass levels so that the rumble from each are roughly the same volume. Now turn up the HU volume pretty loud, to make the Doppler effect easier to hear. If your mid bass is straining, apply a 50/60Hz high pass to cut low bass. The car should be off so as not to add its own low frequencies to the mix. Now adjust mid bass delay _quickly_, to make frequency changes more apparent. In doing so, the pattern may occur more like this:
> 
> *20-16-12-8-4-2-(1)-2-4-8-12-16-20*
> 
> First things first, you just want to FIND the pattern. Once you do, slowly and methodically find the midpoint; count the number of delay steps in the pattern, and divide by 2. Once you're successful, further refine your alignment by reducing the amount of sub/mid bass frequency overlap. With practice, you will be able to align them with their normal crossover frequencies - and this is when you will realize the full benefit of the method. The results are well worth the effort.


Is this method of T/A applicable if using a CTR channel? Would the front midbass be the point of reference in this case. Your instructions are great!


----------



## moparman1

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I see one problem with this approach as with many other methods.
Although this method PHASE aligns everything, pairs may not be TIME aligned.
Let me elaborate. If one pair of drivers is four cycles (1440°) ahead of another, you could have them perfectly in phase, while out of T/A. The fundamental would be out of timing. For example at 100hz, 4 cycles are 40ms. If only 1 or 2 cycles, I think it would be tough to pick out that delay.
So, any idea how to align the fundamental between different drivers without any special equipment? Maybe a click pop track?


----------



## moparman1

Anyone? Am I just not understanding this?


----------



## The Reverend

Sure - if you followed these instructions using only 100Hz tones you would definitely have this issue. Since you are listening to pink noise you will be listening to all frequencies from 20-20k. 

If you are 1440 degrees out of phase at 100Hz with 40ms of delay you will be more or less out of phase at other frequencies with the same level of delay.

You said:



> For example at 100hz, 4 cycles are 40ms


As a counterexample, just use 150Hz as your frequency, 4 cycles as your time, and calculate x ms of "delay." You'll see it will be a smaller number than 40ms. So if you delay by 40ms, you may be 1440deg out of phase at 100Hz but you will be more than 1440deg out of phase at 150Hz. Basically you wouldn't get that "suck-out" sound if things were not actually aligned correctly at all frequencies (unless you have some really bizarre/horrible group delay causing massive phase issues etc etc etc).


----------



## moparman1

The Reverend said:


> Sure - if you followed these instructions using only 100Hz tones you would definitely have this issue. Since you are listening to pink noise you will be listening to all frequencies from 20-20k.
> 
> If you are 1440 degrees out of phase at 100Hz with 40ms of delay you will be more or less out of phase at other frequencies with the same level of delay.
> 
> You said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a counterexample, just use 150Hz as your frequency, 4 cycles as your time, and calculate x ms of "delay." You'll see it will be a smaller number than 40ms. So if you delay by 40ms, you may be 1440deg out of phase at 100Hz but you will be more than 1440deg out of phase at 150Hz. Basically you wouldn't get that "suck-out" sound if things were not actually aligned correctly at all frequencies (unless you have some really bizarre/horrible group delay causing massive phase issues etc etc etc).


Thank you so much. I didn't look at it that way... however now that you pointed it out, its so obvious. Lol. Cheers


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Bluenote said:


> Is this method of T/A applicable if using a CTR channel? Would the front midbass be the point of reference in this case. Your instructions are great!


Sorry, but I've no experience with center channels and this method. However, your theory sounds, uh, sound. You should be able to T/A the center with either mid bass, just like you would between midbass/tweeter or midbass/midrange. Try following the steps in the method as is, except replace the term "tweeter" with "center channel."


----------



## Greg200SE-R

moparman1 said:


> The Reverend said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure - if you followed these instructions using only 100Hz tones you would definitely have this issue. Since you are listening to pink noise you will be listening to all frequencies from 20-20k.
> 
> If you are 1440 degrees out of phase at 100Hz with 40ms of delay you will be more or less out of phase at other frequencies with the same level of delay.
> 
> You said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a counterexample, just use 150Hz as your frequency, 4 cycles as your time, and calculate x ms of "delay." You'll see it will be a smaller number than 40ms. So if you delay by 40ms, you may be 1440deg out of phase at 100Hz but you will be more than 1440deg out of phase at 150Hz. Basically you wouldn't get that "suck-out" sound if things were not actually aligned correctly at all frequencies (unless you have some really bizarre/horrible group delay causing massive phase issues etc etc etc).
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you so much. I didn't look at it that way... however now that you pointed it out, its so obvious. Lol. Cheers
Click to expand...

Nice, Reverend.

moparman, I'd invite you to play around with the method. What you'll find is that there are no phase angles, db levels or frequency numbers involved, and there are no calculations needed.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Thank you once again to everyone who tried out this DIY. Again, it takes patience, but you'll accomplish T/A at a level of precision that NO professional measuring system or long mathematical formula can possibly accomplish. There are no phase angles, db levels or frequency numbers involved, and there are no calculations needed. All it takes is you spending quality time with your system. You will highlight phase problems in your system like a thermal scope highlights heat signatures, and you'll eliminate them as much as possible. 

The "Doppler Effect," as described in the DIY, is central to the method. The Doppler Effect itself highlights audible time domain garbage present in your system, and you then adjust time delay until this garbage is at it's lowest possible level. Find the center of the Doppler Effect, and it disappears - along with the unwanted phase effects.

The true benefit is that your tuning:
- is customized to your ears, car, and system components
- takes place in the same seating position that you are in while driving normally


----------



## Bluenote

Greg200SE-R said:


> Sorry, but I've no experience with center channels and this method. However, your theory sounds, uh, sound. You should be able to T/A the center with either mid bass, just like you would between midbass/tweeter or midbass/midrange. Try following the steps in the method as is, except replace the term "tweeter" with "center channel."


Thanks! And thanks for your efforts too!


----------



## jcmorong

May be this is wrong, My sub is in front, I put the mid bass in 60- 300 hz the sub 0- 300hz but when I check the mid bass with the sub sound perfect, all in fase, but if I cut the sub low pass in 50 hz I feel is out of fase, and then if I move the polariyi I feel more impact.. what is wrong ??


----------



## ndm

Was having some issues with gaps in the sound stage near my left ear....I followed the instruction by the OP and Wow. Way better. I figure I will have to do this a few times but it is way better now. Kind of weird getting used to the non-bloated bass though. It sounds way better though by far!


----------



## lizardking

Is this method better than using ErinH calculator in his sig?


----------



## therapture

ndm - our cars are apparently weird on that left side. I have been on a mission to tune and fix some left side issues.

I too used this method to dial in my TA. I started with measured distances and worked back and forth from there. 

TA is the best it has ever been by ear. I have never tried the impulse response method.


----------



## ndm

therapture said:


> ndm - our cars are apparently weird on that left side. I have been on a mission to tune and fix some left side issues.
> 
> I too used this method to dial in my TA. I started with measured distances and worked back and forth from there.
> 
> TA is the best it has ever been by ear. I have never tried the impulse response method.


I have really gotten mine to a good spot using this method combined with different crossover frequencies. I think I may know what may be causing some of my issue though. I built my ported enclosure with the port firing under the seat but the sub is firing up. I think that at my tuning frequency I am getting out of phase a little. I also have to change the mounting of my tweeters too. They are a bit too far back behind the factory tweeter grills. I can deal with it for now but this "by ear" method is by far one of the best things I have come across in a long time. 

I am very hesitant to change anything due to it being so pleasant to listen to it right now. I really dont wanna F it up. 

So play with your xover frequencies and slopes as well as doing this method. In the end I got it sounding really good but ended up switching the phase on the sub by 180 degrees until I make the needed changes in the port orientation. 

In the mean time I am going to look up the impulse measurement method.


----------



## fcarpio

lizardking said:


> Is this method better than using ErinH calculator in his sig?


If is this or the calculator I choose the calculator. I've had better results with it.


----------



## lizardking

fcarpio said:


> If is this or the calculator I choose the calculator. I've had better results with it.


In reading this thread it appears the method described is overwhelmingly positive and a night and day difference in the measurement method. Could be wishful thinking though.


----------



## ndm

fcarpio said:


> If is this or the calculator I choose the calculator. I've had better results with it.


I am telling you.....calculator works but this method by ear is just simply amazing. It is so weird.


----------



## therapture

ndm said:


> I am telling you.....calculator works but this method by ear is just simply amazing. It is so weird.


I have to agree. The distance method gets me close...but always a left bias...using this method with just two or three learning sessions dialed me in! Focus is sharper than ever. One thing...overlapping your xovers makes it much easier. I put my sub up to 200 to match the midbass...and I drop my 2" wide bander down to 250 when I match them to my midbasses.


----------



## aznlunatic

Alright, time to bump this this back up. So i read through all 12 pages last night and was excited to try this new method in the morning. Well...this morning i spend a good 2 hours with the volume cranked up as high as it can go which is almost deafening and I'm having problems hearing the doppler affect, I dont know if its because of my system is set up or im using the wrong pink noise track, I'm using the uncorrelated pink noise track. For those people that have success in using this methods, is there a better way to make the doppler affect really noticeable? I'm using a pioneer 80prs and have the time alignment at 400cm which is 0, and crossover for the sub can go as high as 250hz which is where i set it and the midbass is crossed over at 40hz both with a 12/db slope. So after a while i said screw it and tried to align the passenger mid and tweeter and it was still hard to hear. Does anyone know what I might be doing wrong? or is there a better way to time align now since this thread is super old that I dont know about?


----------



## DavidRam

This is a great write-up, thanks op. I am gonna try it this week.


----------



## therapture

Once you get it dialed...you can even hear the "noise" between a like pair of drivers. I can verify that my midbass are in phase by isolating them...playing pink noise...and changing TA on one side...you can hear the rumble start with 2-3 clicks of TA change up or down, and the middle of that range is a smooth sound. That way you know the differential between them is correct.


----------



## win1

Great write up


----------



## Rtsr21

Edit, read full thread questions answered.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

Greg200SE-R said:


> More info for those that are having trouble aligning sub/midbass. First, understand what makes the sub/midbass alignment so difficult: you need to hit the delay key many times to reveal the Doppler effect. Consequently, you can't hear a difference in sound each time you press the delay button. For example, aligning the mid/tweeter may occur like this:
> 
> *5-4-3-2-(1)-2-3-4-5*
> 
> Where 5 to 1 represents the Doppler effect getting lower in frequency with each delay step, and 1 to 5 represents a rising frequency. The midpoint (1) represents optimal alignment. Now, in contrast, the sub/mid bass alignment might look like this:
> 
> *20-19-18-17-16-15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-(1)-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20*
> 
> In short, the process is much more “spread out” at low frequencies; this is why it's so difficult to hear changes. With this in mind, here are some setup tips to make the Doppler effect easier to hear. During alignment, play the sub and mid bass full-range for maximum bandwidth overlap. More overlap = stronger Doppler effect. Next, adjust sub and/or mid bass levels so that the rumble from each are roughly the same volume. Now turn up the HU volume pretty loud, to make the Doppler effect easier to hear. If your mid bass is straining, apply a 50/60Hz high pass to cut low bass. The car should be off so as not to add its own low frequencies to the mix. Now adjust mid bass delay _quickly_, to make frequency changes more apparent. In doing so, the pattern may occur more like this:
> 
> *20-16-12-8-4-2-(1)-2-4-8-12-16-20*
> 
> First things first, you just want to FIND the pattern. Once you do, slowly and methodically find the midpoint; count the number of delay steps in the pattern, and divide by 2. Once you're successful, further refine your alignment by reducing the amount of sub/mid bass frequency overlap. With practice, you will be able to align them with their normal crossover frequencies - and this is when you will realize the full benefit of the method. The results are well worth the effort.





aznlunatic said:


> Alright, time to bump this this back up. So i read through all 12 pages last night and was excited to try this new method in the morning. Well...this morning i spend a good 2 hours with the volume cranked up as high as it can go which is almost deafening and I'm having problems hearing the doppler affect, I dont know if its because of my system is set up or im using the wrong pink noise track, I'm using the uncorrelated pink noise track. For those people that have success in using this methods, is there a better way to make the doppler affect really noticeable? I'm using a pioneer 80prs and have the time alignment at 400cm which is 0, and crossover for the sub can go as high as 250hz which is where i set it and the midbass is crossed over at 40hz both with a 12/db slope. So after a while i said screw it and tried to align the passenger mid and tweeter and it was still hard to hear. Does anyone know what I might be doing wrong? or is there a better way to time align now since this thread is super old that I dont know about?


Thanks for posting, I can only suggest you read through the thread again, as some others have commented on the Pioneers. I mainly remember there being an issue with a "beep" noise everytime delay is adjusted - which makes it really difficult. See my post above for hints with the sub/midbass. However, get the mid/tweeter down first. increase overlap between them and you should notice the Doppler effect. It definitely takes practice and patience, but rest assured once you get it down you'll get better results than any shop or expert could provide.


----------



## Greg200SE-R

OP here. Thanks to everyone for the continued support for this thread. I don't check in very often since I don't have reply notifications for DIYMA threads sent to my email. However, I do have PM notifications turned on so I see and reply to PMs.

Over the years, I've learned a lot from the members of DIYMA, so this method is just a way to give something back. Although it's difficult and requires patience to learn, nothing can beat time aligning your system with your own ears. It's a known fact that if a thousand people listen to the same sound under the same circumstances, every person will hear it differently. Everything about us affects the way we hear sound - the shape of our head, earlobes, ear canals, and our brain interpretation are as individual as fingerprints. If someone else tuned your system by ear, you can't get the same results as if you did it yourself - much less using a microphone; much less using calculations. It takes effort to learn my method, but once you do it's yours and you'll only improve + refine your results. All it costs is patience, some experimentation and spending quality time getting to know your system.


----------



## subterFUSE

My subs are in the trunk, but are installed in an IB wall that's just behind the back seats. Therefore, when my driver seat is set in competition position (all the way back) the subwoofer is actually the nearest speaker to the LP @ 38".

My passenger side horn is the furthest speaker @ 72".


Does this change how this procedure should be attempted?


----------



## Rtsr21

Does the volume, level of the drivers effect the T/A?


----------



## seafish

Rtsr21 said:


> Does the volume, level of the drivers effect the T/A?


…..Nope.


----------



## cajunner

makes me wonder if someone could computer-generate an audio file, and using a guitar tuner, find the "center" of the doppler for the sub?

that would be pretty cool since you can get those tuners for hardly nothing, and with the right media it would be a boon...

or maybe it's just a butterfly, it arrived...


----------



## Rtsr21

What happens if you don't get the first Doppler effect, say like the 5 one?


----------



## sqnut

subterFUSE said:


> My subs are in the trunk, but are installed in an IB wall that's just behind the back seats. Therefore, when my driver seat is set in competition position (all the way back) the subwoofer is actually the nearest speaker to the LP @ 38".
> 
> My passenger side horn is the furthest speaker @ 72".
> 
> 
> Does this change how this procedure should be attempted?


You would set the far horn at 0 delay and delay everything else around that.


----------



## subterFUSE

sqnut said:


> You would set the far horn at 0 delay and delay everything else around that.


So I would reverse the order of operations? Start with the horns and work down to the sub?


----------



## subterFUSE

Just started playing with this technique today.

Since my passenger side horn is the furthest speaker from the LP, I set that as zero delay.

I tried to align the passenger side midbass (in the door) with the passenger side horn.

Horns and midbass are crossed-over at 800 Hz Linkwitz 24.
Using REW tone generator, I played pink noise from 533-1068Hz.
This is the smallest range that centers on 800Hz.

Harmonics. I can definitely hear them. It's an extra "swirl" sound that is very easy to localize in the soundstage. I actually noticed that the easiest way to hear the harmonics is to move your head forward and back while listening. Obviously, moving your head is a quick and easy way to "change the time alignment."

I also noticed that the harmonics are much easier to hear when my head is forward and away from the headrest. If I lean forward, I can hear them. If I sit back and put my head on the headrest, they are much harder to hear. And this doesn't change as I adjust the timing. It's always harder to hear the harmonics when my head is on the headrest, unless I turn my head and face the speakers. For example, with my head back against the headrest and facing forward... no harmonics. Turn my head to the right and look at the right midbass speaker, and the harmonic swirl instantly begins.


I'm having a hell of a time zoning in on the correct timing. I worked at it for about an hour or so, but had to give up and stop. Will try again tonight or tomorrow.



I also tried to switch things up and match the driver side horn to the passenger side horn.
This was somewhat easier. When I played the pink noise, the harmonics started on imaging directly in front of the steering wheel. As I increased the delay on the driver side horn, the harmonics image move slowly towards the center. At about .7ms, the "swirling" sound was centered in the soundstage... but I could not hear a pitch change.


----------



## subterFUSE

So I decided to begin a retune of the car from scratch.

This time I decided on using much lower crossover points on my midbass and sub. I then spent a couple of hours trying to get this method for time alignment to work for me, without success.

My DSP is the new Helix Pro, and the TA adjustments are very small. .01ms steps. However, the TA adjustment is done via a slider on-screen, or can be adjusted with the arrow keys. So I have the ability to do a coarse adjustment via slider, or fine adjustment via arrow keys.

I found that when you click and drag the slider quickly, I can definitely hear the harmonics within the pink noise. It's the fine-tuning where I am having so much difficulty. I think the TA steps are so small on my DSP that it's difficult to hear changes. I almost wish the DSP had a user setting that could change the steps from .01ms to something larger, but then let you go back to .01 for fine tuning.

For example, I could start by just dragging the slider around until I hear the pattern. Then set the arrow clicks for coarse adjust of maybe .1ms or .05 ms. Click around until I get closer, and then go to .01ms adjustments.

Anyway, after a couple of hours I gave up on my TA that day.



Last night I went back to try again. Played some noise and started dragging the TA slider around. Got the harmonics. Was listening for doppler and just can't get it. But, I did notice that the harmonics have a definite location in the soundstage. So I just went by location and centered the harmonics in the windshield using only the slider. I did not bother fine tuning with the arrow keys at all, so I was just rough-guessing it.

I fired up some music to see how I did. The results? I'm really impressed. I found a very solid center image and the soundstage width had expanded just beyond the pillars.

And that's with no EQ at all. Just levels, XOver and TA.


----------



## Rtsr21

Guys I have the 80prs the sub is the furthest away so its at 160. When I go to set the TA for the mids and tweets do I start at 0 or 160.

Thanks


----------



## TreyE

So tonight I took my first stab at TA, I have to say that I am blown away. I know I didn't do a perfect job, but the imaging has moved to up in my dash/front windshield and sound quality has improved significantly. I feel like moving to active speakers, deadening doors and time alignment has made such a significant difference. Then again I haven't been listening to tweeters for the past 2 months and that has probably thrown me off.

I was listening to Eric Clapton and Alice in Chains MTV Unplugged after I did time alignment and it was crazy I could definitely tell a huge difference instruments were easy to place and my sub-bass didnt sound like it was in my trunk anymore. Weird to explain but it just sounded right. 

I was extremely skeptical at first but I read through all 12 pages and did it. I tried the ones preset in the head unit and they sucked. I then measured, a little better I think? Still not a big difference. Used this method, it took a long time (2 hours) to get it done but it sounded so much better.

I have been doing car audio since about 2005 and this is my first active system, first time I've deadened my doors and first time doing time alignment and I have been missing out on so much!!! Its awesome. I made an account to post in this thread. Anyways, here are my settings. Do they seem normal?



Mids in stock location in doors and tweets in sails almost directly above them, window height.

Using Silver Flute 6.5" and Seas Prestige Textile 1". The tweets are super laid back and non fatiguing which I like and they look OEM in my sails. The Silvers are awesome too. Really a great pair of active for $150 shipped. I might have even wanted to go with the aluminum seas prestige if I did it over again.


----------



## TreyE

Greg200SE-R said:


> Thanks for posting, I can only suggest you read through the thread again, as some others have commented on the Pioneers. I mainly remember there being an issue with a "beep" noise everytime delay is adjusted - which makes it really difficult. See my post above for hints with the sub/midbass. However, get the mid/tweeter down first. increase overlap between them and you should notice the Doppler effect. It definitely takes practice and patience, but rest assured once you get it down you'll get better results than any shop or expert could provide.


I have a Pioneer and the beep did make it more difficult, I found the beep to be less loud when going down instead of up? Might just be my HU (AVH-x2700bs).

Anyways, when I was trying to align my tweeters I could hear an extra sound but it sounded the same every 2 steps. So the sound went like this:

2-1-2-1-2-1-2

I wasn't able to find a spot that was really less than the other, but I tried to find it. After listening a bit it seems my stage is favoring the passenger side a teeeny tiny bit but it is such a drastic improvement over where it was I'm still leaving it where it is.


----------



## vwjmkv

this was a good read. i'll definitely use this when i get a DSP and actually have TA capabilities


----------



## #1BigMike

hmmm... I am going to try this method as well.


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## mbradlawrence

I have read through all of this thread and the companion (where the phase is flipped to find the null). In the other one, the OP edited the process and said that his method resulted in the driver (not car) centered stage. By that I mean in a driver centered stage, the singer is in front of you and in a car centered stage the singer is below the rear view mirror (I actually like to move mine to the left a tad).

Please post where the lead singer is located in your experiences with this method (or the other for that matter because I "think" they are just skinning the cat in slightly different manners).

If it is centered over the steering wheel the suggestion was to adjust T/A of the closest speaker to move the stage left/right. Doesn't this undo all of the great phase work the original method relied on?


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## Babs

Also.. I've found if you're pretty darn positive your left/right TA is spot on, yet you might find your center is too left or right, consider that after getting your TA right, your levels on one side or the other might be a tad hot compared to the other which will cause a perceived shift. This can be measured by mic at your head location easy enough. The two plots overlapped can show which driver(s) on which side a bit too hot at the listening position.


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## mbradlawrence

Well, I'll post my experience, that is why we are here, right?

First, I could not hear the doppler shift at all. So I went to the related method and inverted phase of the right mid base and looked for nulls, still had problems so I ran a 200K test tone and that was clear as day when the null hit. I then reversed phase to double check in the same area, same number so I was happy with my passenger mid bass. Driver side was easy, did it the same way. I then just went just the rest of this method with the slight tweak mentioned above. 

Anyways, the result was good but not mindblowing. So I tried again, this time without any of my preset eq done. This was 1, easier to hear and 2, ended up with about the same numbers. I then reapplied my filters from prior Eqs and ran some sweeps, now my eq and levels were off and the right side of my stage was thin.....I can only assume that I got rid of some phase cancellations/issues. After level matching again and some curve smoothing my stage seems wide again.

Final results--- staging/imaging is not a ton better than the measurement method of TA but the system just seems smoother, like the stereo is not "working" as hard. I like the sound quite a bit and will keep experimenting with this method. As for imaging, the lead singer is slightly left of my rearview mirror and I think i like this better. It seems to bring the singer and instruments to the right of the singer forward more instead of burying them lower dash (like they were stuck between the glass and the dash before). 

Imaging Before (relative volume is based on numbers of x's with the xxx being lead singer):

x xx xxx x x

After:

x xx xxx xx x


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## derickveliz

mbradlawrence said:


> Please post where the lead singer is located in your experiences with this method (or the other for that matter because I "think" they are just skinning the cat in slightly different manners).


*Regardless the method and for a "natural sound stage" it should start at least from Pillar to Pillar, if possible beyond pillars, the center image right in the center of your car some how above the dash as far forward possible at eye level and depending on the car, it could extend outside the windshield, all depends on the installation.

One of the biggest challenges for the stage in a car are all the reflexions and cross signals that our brain receives from different directions, that makes a spot on center stage hard to accomplish.

Below I'm showing a standard set up with Point source in kick area showing a minimal stage boundaries, just keep in mind that a proper system would make your car disappear and the stage transforms into where the music was recorded:*



D.


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## mbradlawrence

Yea, I wasn't getting what you showed with this method, so I went back to my old measured Ta and just chose my passenger side (ps) MB/Tweets as reference and then centered up pick noise with TA by adjusting driver side (ds) like speakers (ds Tweet ---- ps tweet; ds mid ---- ps mid). After fidgeting with sub a bit I got it similar to the pic you showed above.


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## subterFUSE

I'm realizing there's another term besides "Doppler Effect" we can use to describe the sounds within the noise tracks.

Flanger Effect


If you find the Wikipedia entry for Flanger, they have an audio sample of the effect.

With my background as a DJ, I've been familiar with the sounds of flangers for many years. Most flangers are done with electronic FX machines, or are built into the mixers. But you can actually create flanger effects with 2 turntables and 2 copies of the same record. When you play the 2 records together and mix them, and then slightly adjust the delay between those records, you get an audible flanger effect. As the timing between the records changes, the pitch of the flanger will change.


The only thing is.... I've not been very good at picking out the flanger effect within pink noise using my ears. I believe the reason for this is because the amount of time delay for the flanger effect to be highly noticeable is probably a lot larger than the delay resolution of our DSPs. A .01ms delay won't create much flanging, especially at lower frequencies.

I'm going to try this method out again in a few weeks and see if I can't get my ears trained a little better now that I feel like I've got a stronger grasp on what to listen for.


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## Babs

subterFUSE said:


> I'm realizing there's another term besides "Doppler Effect" we can use to describe the sounds within the noise tracks.
> 
> Flanger Effect
> 
> 
> If you find the Wikipedia entry for Flanger, they have an audio sample of the effect.
> 
> With my background as a DJ, I've been familiar with the sounds of flangers for many years. Most flangers are done with electronic FX machines, or are built into the mixers. But you can actually create flanger effects with 2 turntables and 2 copies of the same record. When you play the 2 records together and mix them, and then slightly adjust the delay between those records, you get an audible flanger effect. As the timing between the records changes, the pitch of the flanger will change.
> 
> 
> The only thing is.... I've not been very good at picking out the flanger effect within pink noise using my ears. I believe the reason for this is because the amount of time delay for the flanger effect to be highly noticeable is probably a lot larger than the delay resolution of our DSPs. A .01ms delay won't create much flanging, especially at lower frequencies.
> 
> I'm going to try this method out again in a few weeks and see if I can't get my ears trained a little better now that I feel like I've got a stronger grasp on what to listen for.


Ah!!! Might be why I had an easy time with it.. Exe-guitar player. Well all too familiar with flange and phase affects. I could tell just by a couple clicks with the Helix when this occurred. What's even more fun is move your head one inch left/right then all bets are off.


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## Babs

I bet it could be demonstrated fairly easily by placing two home speakers side by side, running it from a couple channels of a DSP, sitting dead center sweet-spot and applying delay to one side. Might be good way to train your ears for recognition. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mbradlawrence

While the method sounded good when I did it, I could never get it quite right. Used Erin H's set up (tracerite) after level matching and eqing and its almost dead on. As i do these with pink noise and an RTA (and my ears to an extent) the t/a is (I believe) irrelevant so I think it is safe to do it after. I then leave the right side set and use pink noise to move (ever so slightly) the left delay to center each speaker (e.g., center woofers relative to each other, then mids and then tweets). Sub, if just took all my times, added 1.0 to them and then the sub delay up and down until the bass drum sounded like it was coming from outside my windshield and on my hood. 

That said, I still there is def. something here and when I get the time (and its not super hot-- no ac in a car and it gets hot super fast) I will retry and see if i can get better at hearing the rumble because it does seem to make the system sound "free-er", like it is not trying so hard.


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## crackinhedz

Been playing with this method and still learning it but something has me scratching my head.

I can get the pink noise centered (using REW pn generator), and can tell difference between in and out of phase pink noise by flipping one of the midbass. When I go to play music, vocals and stage are pretty centered but midbass is anemic. So I flip polarity on one of the midbass and bam, comes to life! Midbass is excellent, only now my stage is centered over my steering wheel/ or pulled left.

Midbass are in stock lower door location. Kinda confused how I can get a perfectly centered staged but no midbass, but flip midbass 180 I get great sound just image doesnt center as if out of phase. 

So my out of phase gives great midbass response, but in-phase gives centered image but dull midbass. Im sure Im doing something wrong. :mean:


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## Babs

crackinhedz said:


> Been playing with this method and still learning it but something has me scratching my head.
> 
> I can get the pink noise centered (using REW pn generator), and can tell difference between in and out of phase pink noise by flipping one of the midbass. When I go to play music, vocals and stage are pretty centered but midbass is anemic. So I flip polarity on one of the midbass and bam, comes to life! Midbass is excellent, only now my stage is centered over my steering wheel/ or pulled left.
> 
> Midbass are in stock lower door location. Kinda confused how I can get a perfectly centered staged but no midbass, but flip midbass 180 I get great sound just image doesnt center as if out of phase.
> 
> So my out of phase gives great midbass response, but in-phase gives centered image but dull midbass. Im sure Im doing something wrong. :mean:


Are you aligning your mid-bass by themselves. Try aligning them alone with low-pass defeated and tweets (or mids in 3-way) muted, so mid-bass alone are playing all the way up, realign roughly using distance measurements, then dial in finely to bring them in alignment with a centered image. 

If they're aligned with vocals making "S" sounds, imagining center, instead of "sh", they should be in phase all the way down. Unless I'm wrong on this, feel free to correct me. 

My theory is you might have tweeters dialed in, but mids no. While I believe you can get that last little bit by ear, using a good distance delay amount as your base to start from I think is essential.


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## crackinhedz

Yeah, only midbass playing. (2 way active) Everything else muted.

I will give it another go tomorrow, had to take a break from listening fatigue.


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## rdr140

Thanks for the info A++


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## restless.skies

Not to resurrect an older thread, but THANK YOU to the OP. I just used this method to dial in the TA on my Helix V Eight tonight and all I can say is wow, I can't believe it's that easy to do by ear. The end result is excellent!


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## Alex92

I've always attempted to align like drivers separately with a centered vocal track and for the most part felt happy but I gave this a shot today for the hell of it and it was an eye opener for sure.
It helped me identify some big phase issues between drivers I never knew I had, at first the values between the midbass and midrange in mine seemed too far apart when I used this method and made no sense, I then chose to flip the phase on the midrange and try again and once I finished it was set to what felt to be a value that made far more sense. After completing it I found that my stage depth feels to have changed noticeably now my drivers are in phase and has given it more of an openness and extra dimension that weren't there before as I never realised the non alike drivers were so out of phase...

I will add though I only rushed through and still will need a little more work but had great trouble with the sub and midbass. My quick workaround for those drivers that I felt worked quicker and easier for me was to instead play a sine wave between them and play with the midbass time alignment until the tone sounded the loudest. Ideology being a tone playing in phase between them should sum and play at its loudest and if it got quieter it was phase cancellation related being a pure tone.

It was tough between the midrange and tweeter I'll add as well, not to notice the Doppler effect and harmonics but because my delay increments on 0.05ms steps were just a little big for those drivers. Incredibly hard to zero in as one click up or down and the harmonics were back in full swing, in my experience the tweeter was the one driver where it just clicks in and theres no finding the centre, it was either on point or it wasn't with absolutely no in between, I just wish I had finer adjustments I could play with. Either way, I look forward to doing a little more fine tuning and seeing how much I can improve. Definitely merit here in identifying phase issues that could be missed in a 3 way active front stage, I never would've guessed I'd have to flip the phase of my midrange drivers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## banshee28

I am about to try this but I read you need to start with the SUB first. I dont have a SUB installed yet, but have a 3-way active front: Midbass, Mid, Tweet. SUB will be installed soon, but would like to get the front dialed in pretty good without it. I know I will have to re-do it ALL once I get the SUB since it will be the furthest away, but thats fine.

So in my case, do I start with the Midbasses and Midranges first, or the Pass Tweet since its the furthest away?


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## Nik_Ind

restless.skies said:


> Not to resurrect an older thread, but THANK YOU to the OP. I just used this method to dial in the TA on my Helix V Eight tonight and all I can say is wow, I can't believe it's that easy to do by ear. The end result is excellent!


I have a Helix V Eight as well. Did you try to compare your results if you set it by distance vs this method?! The way I did it was, first set TA by distance, and then fine tune it to what sounds best to me. Now, this method makes me feel I have a lot left to do :worried:


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## SkizeR

You should not be using signal delay to move your center image. Set it by distance, use eq and levels from there. Sometimes a few clicks of adjustment are needed but that's rare and even then it's really nitpicking 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## Leonte Alin

Hello to all. I've read all the pages and everyone is focused only on the driver. How do you properly set it for both the driver and the front passanger? Same delay on both sides? I have speakers and tweeters on all 4 doors. Thanks in advance!


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## seafish

Leonte Alin said:


> ... How do you properly set it for both the driver and the front passanger? Same delay on both sides? I have speakers and tweeters on all 4 doors. Thanks in advance!



It simple ... you can't.

Setting time delay equally on both sides would automatically defeat the purpose of time delay, which is to get the sound from each individual driver arriving at ONE pareticular listening position at the SAME time, and THAT depends on the path length from the individual speakers to the listener's ears at the one position. ANY other listeners ears will be in an entirely different position.,

In short, any tune that focuses on more then one listening position will be compromise so that neither position has good imaging with good phase coherence. That said, some people will set a tune for themselves as driver and then a compromise tune if they have passengers that they want to treat to better sound then they would get listening to the driver only tune.


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## Leonte Alin

I've just checked the stereo and unfortunatly it only alows 1ms increments. It's kind of hard to be precise or hear the doppler effect as a wave. I can definetly hear changes in sound but cannot pinpoint exactly where i have to stop. At the moment the subwoofer is not mounted. At least i will try to delay the speakers so that bass from it will be in sync with the other speakers.


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## gijoe

Leonte Alin said:


> I've just checked the stereo and unfortunatly it only alows 1ms increments. It's kind of hard to be precise or hear the doppler effect as a wave. I can definetly hear changes in sound but cannot pinpoint exactly where i have to stop. At the moment the subwoofer is not mounted. At least i will try to delay the speakers so that bass from it will be in sync with the other speakers.


Carefully measure with a measuring tape and you're done. It really is that easy.


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## Leonte Alin

gijoe said:


> Carefully measure with a measuring tape and you're done. It really is that easy.


Carefull measurement indeed. But the 1 ms steps do not help. I'm jumping 34 cm every step. Hard to pinpoint the delay this way.


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## Babs

Leonte Alin said:


> Carefull measurement indeed. But the 1 ms steps do not help. I'm jumping 34 cm every step. Hard to pinpoint the delay this way.


1 ms seems very imprecise.. It's hard to imagine a head unit with enough thought in the product to include time-alignment at all, only having 1ms increments. 0.1 ms increments I could imagine, but not 1 ms. Interesting.


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## Leonte Alin

Let's say that for thw purpose of stagibg the sound for the driver and the passenger, you don't need to be that precise but i wish i could fine tune it for when i'm alone. The headunit is a chinese android headunit. Surprisingly good sound quality but the drawback is time alignment.


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## Babs

Understood.. Yeah given the premise that tuning can really be boiled down to essentially two items, TA and frequency response, even if you have a good TA dialed in, this is where independent left vs right side EQ takes over to really get the stage solid without ghosting or wavering in certain frequencies.. At that point, you really get into external DSP area for all of it for best results.


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## ymxc87

Greg200SE-R said:


> *Introduction*
> 
> First of all, I’m not a professional, just someone who used to be obsessive about mobile audio. So, please forgive any misuse of terms or definitions. Digital time alignment (abbreviated as TA) was the driving force behind my first active system. Based on recommendations by this forum, I put together a laptop-based measurement setup to help with setting time delays.
> 
> Long story short, I was never satisfied with the results. I put away the microphone and cables, and decided to use a different set of measuring devices: my ears. I experimented for weeks, and developed a way to set TA by listening for specific cues. The results were fantastic. The reason my method, with practice, will achieve better time alignment than any sophisticated measurement system is simple: it’s customized to every individual, and their vehicle interior.
> 
> With correct application, this method achieves immediate improvements in imaging, staging, impact, and transparency. Bass should become thinner, but in a good way - lean, with great impact. The sub-bass shouldn’t come from the back of the car, or even up front – it should be completely unlocalizable. Midbass should be solidly up front along with the rest of the center image.
> 
> TA will be calibrated:
> 
> Using your own ears
> Taking into account your own hearing (the same sound is heard differently by everybody... and much more so by microphones)
> With your head in your everyday driving/listening position
> Taking into account all in-cabin reflections and absorptions, including your own body’s effects
> 
> The method costs nothing but time and patience. An audio file of pink and white noise will be used for tuning and can be downloaded free here: Burn-in wave files: white noise, pink noise, frequency sweep, channel mix
> 
> The method assumes that your system is an active one, with each channel individually adjustable for time delay. It is developed and written for a 2-way front stage with a mono subwoofer channel and no rear speakers, though it can adapted for any other active system, no matter how many channels. Note that there is only one sweet spot per calibration.
> 
> Here’s a preview of the method for a typical 3-way system:
> 
> While playing pink and/or white noise through system,
> 
> Isolate sub and passenger side midbass (mute all other channels). Align drivers.
> Isolate sub and driver side midbass. Align drivers.
> Isolate driver and passenger midbasses. Verify time alignment and center image.
> Isolate passenger side midbass and tweeter. Align drivers.
> Isolate driver side midbass and tweeter. Align drivers.
> Isolate driver and passenger tweeters. Verify tweeter alignment and center image.
> Verify front stage alignment.
> Normal up the system and evaluate.
> Notice that alignment takes place between 2 non-like drivers at a time (sub/mid, mid/tweeter), and verification is done using like drivers (both mids, or both tweeters).


I've been building speaker cases for the last 5 years and have built 30 - 40 cases using R & D methods and found the best way is to build individual cases for each driver. I built some tube speakers, driver in the end and used a moveable shaped insert behind the driver and adjusted for tone, SQ and free movement of the diaphragm to the sweet spot for my ears. I placed a woofer a mid range/ tweeter in a two way passive circuit crossover and was standing in front listening to them. The drivers were very close within an inch of eachother. I noticed they didn't sound good but didn't know ho bad they really sounded until i accidentally hit the smaller speaker and moved it backwords aprox.10 inches. I was shocked and awed by what I heard..........the music from each driver became so clean, so clear, so distinct I could immediately hear instruments I hadn't previously heard by this sudden shift. I never dreamed that time alignment / phase alignment could be so dramatic. I am now convinced that no two speakers are the same and need to be tuned individually and should never be placed on the same plane of a baffle board. I would go so far as to say mounting speakers on baffle boards in the same plane is a terrible cost cutting compromise for sound quality and clarity and phase / time alignment....... i discovered this accidentally and can attest to the fact that it is a night and day difference!


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