# 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cadence



## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cadence*

I have been slowly accumulating a few subwoofers to try out. Other members also had a few subs to contribute. Rather than listen to them by myself, I thought it would be fun to gather together some local DIYMA members and listen to the subs. 

For the 12" subwoofer shootout, the participants were Andrew (Mooble), James (SublimeZ), Danny (dmazyn), Mark (M-dub), and myself. Andrew and I currently have a Morel Ultimo 12 as our primary sub and Danny and James have a Dayton 15" HO as their primary sub in their vehicles.

The subs we listened to, the enclosure we used, and the cutoff frequency that the HU picked:

Dayton 12 HO - 1.25 cu ft - 80 Hz
Diyma R12 -0.7 cu ft - 63 Hz
Resonant Engineering (RE) SE12D4 - 1.25 cu ft - 63 Hz
Hertz HX300 - 1.25 cu ft - 80 Hz
Boston Acoustics G5-1244 - 1.25 cu ft - 80 Hz
HSU Research ASW1203 - 1.25 cu ft - 80 Hz
Cadence Wild Beast 12 - 2.5 cu ft - 80 Hz (not an SQ sub - I bought it thinking I might have fun with SPL at some point - but what the heck)

We used my car as the test bed:
Pioneer DEH-P800PRS Head Unit.
Digital Designs S4 amp (100 x 2 _ 200 x 2) driving Scan 1" Illuminators tweeters and W18NX 7" woofers.
PowerBass ASA 800.2 amp bridged to provide 800 WATTS @ 4 OHMS for the subs. The RE SE 12 D4 and BA G51244 were tested at 8 ohms because this amp cannot handle a 2 ohm load.

Enclosures: 
We had a 1.25 cu ft sealed Scosche enclosure, a 0.7 cu ft sealed Goldwood enclosure, and a 2.8 cu ft sealed box with pieces of wood used to vary the volume.

Methodology:
We first figured out what size enclosure the sub needed and then placed it an appropriate enclosure. We went with the manufacturer's reccomendation in most cases as that is what most people will use and because that is what the manufacturer reccomends. If there was no reccomendation, we used WinISD.

Next we placed the sub + enclosure in the car and ran auto eq and time alignment (t/a) with the head unit. We did this to try and eliminate as many variables as possible and because most people on this forum have a head unit that has at least some eq and t/a capabilities. We also ran an RTA as a quantative measurement of the sub.

Each of us brought our own test CDs and rated each sub in 4 categories: bass extension, 
clarity (e.g., was there smearing or were the notes precise), 
coloration/boominess (to what extent was the Q of the subwoofer audible), and 
blending (how well did the sub blend with the rest of the components).

One thing that surprised me was how blending varied depending on the type of music for some subs but not for others. Specifically, I noticed that some subs did not do well with electronic type recordings (e.g. Yello) but did well with rock/pop recordings (e.g. Cowboy Junkies).


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

We are planning a followup shootout, pitting the best from our first round against the Morel Ultimo 12.

The other listeners will provide their own listening impressions, but my personal ranking was:


Boston Acoustics G512-44
RE SE12D4
3-way tie: Dayton 12 HO, Diyma R12, and HSU ASW1203
Cadence
Hertz

The BA G5 was outstanding. It blended very well, dug deep, hit the notes clearly and without smearing, and didn't make its presence felt.
The RE SE12 was a close second, perhaps making its presence felt just a tad more than the BA G5. The Dayton, Diyma, and Hsu were all very good, especially considering their prices. I could live with any one of these subs. For these 3 subs, each had their own different minor shortcoming, i.e. each did very well in most of the testing categories but was slightly less proficient in one category.

The Hertz was a bit peaky sounding, probably because of its relatively high Fs of 42 Hz (which I only found out when I looked it up when posting this). I hasten to add that the Hertz sounded great in my friend's truck but was not as impressive in my car - all this means is that this sub may not be suited to my car. Each vehicle is different so don't make this out to be a criticism of the sub. Also, the above is purely my ranking. I have sent a PM asking my fellow collaborators to add their comments.

The Cadence wanted a big enclosure but wasn't half bad. It blended well, though notes did seem to smear together a bit. For someone wanting to do SPL but have decent SQ, this is not a bad way to go, especially since the Cadence Wild Beast can be had fairly cheap direct from Cadence or on ebay.


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## dmazyn (Apr 29, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

I did not listen to every sub so I will not judge them but did take the rta for each sub.

RTA Setup
- ECM8000 Mic placed in the same spot for each measurement
- SIA SmartLive RTA Software

Morel Ultimo 12










Dayton 12 HO 










Diyma R12 










Resonant Engineering (RE) SE12D4 










Hertz HX300 










Boston Acoustics G5-1244 










HSU Research ASW1203 










Cadence Wild Beast 12


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

The Ultimo RTA was taken after I drove up. Because of my loud exhaust, I have the sub bumped up 3 or 4db and this is clear from the RTA. Next time, I will take an RTA of the system after the HU has performed auto eq and ta to make the comparison more equal.


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

any way you can rta with a 5db swing instead of 20? it would reveal more in terms of response.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



BigRed said:


> any way you can rta with a 5db swing instead of 20? it would reveal more in terms of response.


I'm sure we can figure that out. We are still new to the RTA thing. That is an excellent idea though. That would make it more informative. We will try to do it next time.


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## jbowers (May 3, 2009)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Nice, subscribed!


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



dmazyn said:


> Dayton 12 HO


And down and up and down and up [ we are at ?? Hz ].

I ve ridden rollercoasters that were flatter


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Can we get enclosure specifications, crossover points, power applied, etc as well. These are all very important to the type of test you guys are running.

Thanks for taking the effort to do this. The extra step here will really make it enlightening.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Another interesting thing you guys could do is measure each driver with the mic right up almost touching the cone. That should give you the response of each driver+enclosure, which you could double check against the modeled response you got from WinISD. You can also subtract that response from your measured response posted here to get the vehicle's response.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



a$$hole said:


> And down and up and down and up [ we are at ?? Hz ].
> 
> I ve ridden rollercoasters that were flatter


Most of that has to do with my car. I think next time, I am going to examine these RTAs, and then create an EQ curve to compensate for the peaks and valleys common to all the curves. Clearly, the auto eq did not compensate for some of these peaks and valleys, as they are present in each RTA.

We did not touch anything other than volume once the auto eq and ta had done its thing.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



MiniVanMan said:


> Can we get enclosure specifications, crossover points, power applied, etc as well. These are all very important to the type of test you guys are running.
> 
> Thanks for taking the effort to do this. The extra step here will really make it enlightening.


I have added the enclosure specs and crossover points to my original post. The crossover point was picked by the HU during auto eq and ta. Almost all of the subs were tested in the Scosche 1.25 cu ft (gross) sub box I got off Amazon for $30. The exceptions were the Diyma, which got the 0.7 cu ft Goldwood/PE enclosure, and the Cadence, which got the 2.5 cu ft enclosure.

Power to the subs was provided by a Powerbass class AB amp bridged to provide 800 watts of power into 4 ohms.

We really didn't really know what we were in for when we did this so all your suggestions are most welcome to help us imrpove our methodology.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



npdang said:


> Another interesting thing you guys could do is measure each driver with the mic right up almost touching the cone. That should give you the response of each driver+enclosure, which you could double check against the modeled response you got from WinISD. You can also subtract that response from your measured response posted here to get the vehicle's response.


Excellent suggestions! Just to clarify: you want us to place the mic in front of the sub in the car and then run the RTA? Oooh, getting the vehicle response sounds like a splendid idea. We will try to incorporate all these suggestions into our next set of tests. The plan is to test the BA G5, RE SE12, Diyma, Hsu, and Dayton against the Morel Ultimo.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



snaimpally said:


> Excellent suggestions! Just to clarify: you want us to place the mic in front of the sub in the car and then run the RTA? Oooh, getting the vehicle response sounds like a splendid idea. We will try to incorporate all these suggestions into our next set of tests. The plan is to test the BA G5, RE SE12, Diyma, Hsu, and Dayton against the Morel Ultimo.


Yep, place the mic as close as you can without the cone hitting it when playing. It really doesn't matter whether the sub is in the car or not... as the response will be the same. Do whatever is easiest for you!


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## GLN305 (Nov 2, 2007)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



npdang said:


> Yep, place the mic as close as you can without the cone hitting it when playing. It really doesn't matter whether the sub is in the car or not... as the response will be the same. Do whatever is easiest for you!


Excellent suggestion


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## Buzzman (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

In addition to the foregoing suggestions, I think it would be helpful to know:

1. What vehicle was used for testing.
2. The direction in which the subwoofer enclosure fired, and whether alternate placements were used.
3. Whether the enclosure was filled with fiberglass or polyfill.
4. The retail price of the respective subs.

With respect to # 3, this is particularly relevant when you factor in subwoofer displacement, which results in a net internal volume less than the enclosure specification you provide, and some of these subs may well perform better in a larger enclosure. I know that to be the case with the Hsu Research sub, for example.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

1. _What vehicle was used for testing?_ - 08 Mazda Speed 3 - See my build log elsewhere for details on the sound deadening etc. that was done to the vehicle.
2. _What direction was the subwoofer enclosure fired, and were alternate placements used?_ - For all the subs EXCEPT for the Cadence, the enclosure was rear-firing, i.e. the cone was facing the rear of the vehicle. Also, the Mazda Speed 3 is a hatchback so the sub was placed in the hatch and the privacy cover was attached before listening tests were performed. We found that without the privacy cover, the subs were much easier to localize. The Cadence was in the large enclosure and, because of the size of the large enclosure, it was upfiring rather than rear firing. Despite this, the Cadence bended very well.
3. _Was the enclosure filled with fiberglass or polyfill?_ The enclosure had a very small amount of polyfill, as this is how it came from Scosche. For the next round, I plan to have more polyfill in.
4. _What are the prices of the respective subs?_ Some of the subs we tested are discontinued, but are available used. I have listed prices that I could find:

Cadence - $115 shipped from ebay.
Hsu ASW1203 - Sold out (was $139 + shipping from Hsu Research)
RE SE12D4 - Discontinued (was $165 from Audio Savings) I think the replacement is the RE SEX12D4 which is around the same price.
Dayton 12" HO - $138 shipped from Parts Express.
Diyma R12 - Discontinued. (Was $150 from NP Dang)
Hertz HX300 - ???
Boston Acoustics G512-44 - Discontinued. (Was $400 from Crutchfield)


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

One thing Id be curious about is what the rtas would look like with the eq set flat for each sub. That would reveal more about the subs actual response.

nice work


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## DragonSworn (Oct 26, 2009)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

When will the 10" sub shootout be posted? All I need to figure out if Morel's optimal box size (.88cf) for sealed is accurate. Anyone else notice that in the Ultimo owners manual the Ultimo 8 f3 is 15hz which is lower than the 10 or 12...


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

I've used the DIYMA, RE SE12, and Dayton 12" (HF version). They're all quite a bit different from each other in terms of sound signature/presentation. All of them are good at their job, but a lot of the ranking will come down to personal preference. The problem is none of them really fault dramatically anywhere.

Blending problems points straight to a frequency response issue and maybe a time delay issue. It will be tough to get each dialed in well one after another. Unless you're spending half an hour with each before the listening session, I doubt they were all set equally. I know the automatic EQ, T/A thing was used, but it is useful to run back through the settings and verify the results. Sometimes the HU will do goofy things in order to satisfy what it defines as "ideal." It could very well be a root problem of some issues with blending and presentation. The auto processing is neat, but it doesn't 100% replace the human element. I know there have been a number of posts on this forum stating some very goofy results. Don't take what the HU does blindly. Look at the results and fix what's out of place.

As well, I might be less inclined to add EQing. Many people running this hardware will not have 30 EQ bands to work with. Many will have one, maybe. It would be beneficial to understand the natural response of the sub and how it fits in the car. For example, the G5 will play low well. It's a moderage Vas and Qts driver. It plays low easy. Something like the DIYMA rolls off a bit earlier, so the bottom end will be lighter. It is good to understand this. EQing can be added as needed to flatten or extend the response, but it should be done with purpose.

With the reviewing I would be very careful to separate personal preference from raw function. It's good to criticize a driver for operating poorly. It is bad to criticize a driver for operating well but different from your personal liking. This is the toughest part of reviewing hardware, taking out your personal bias. It is better to comment on the raw function of the driver, and you can in a neutral tongue describe the sound characteristics of the driver. Listen to and comment about what is there. Don't comment in relation to what you think it should do. This is quite a challenge. It's fine to comment about personal preference, but you need to be very clear when you do speak of personal preference. Comparing and contrasting is good too. It doesn't really define an absolute scale, but it does show a relative scale between products which is useful when comparing.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



DragonSworn said:


> When will the 10" sub shootout be posted? All I need to figure out if Morel's optimal box size (.88cf) for sealed is accurate. Anyone else notice that in the Ultimo owners manual the Ultimo 8 f3 is 15hz which is lower than the 10 or 12...


We did NOT test the Morel Ultimo 10" if that is what you were expecting.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

You are correct. With most of the subs, they were excellent performers with minor quirks here and there but no major problems.

We knew that we would get some heat for using the auto eq and ta. However, I think our decision was the correct one for several reasons. First, I think it is unrealistic that anyone would simply stick a sub in their car and be done with it. People will tune the system including the sub. If we sat around doing that for each sub, it would take us forever. Second, failing to do any tuning would cause the results to be influenced by the particular vehicle we were using ("A driver is only as good as the enclosure you put it in" - NP Dang). Third, we are not talking about capaibilities that are out of reach for most people. A Pioneer DEH-P880PRS can usually be had on the forum for around $200 used, and the 800PRS for a little more than that. Those are not outrageous prices for a headunit. Fourth, the Pio is one of the top 5 HUs that forum members run. I know because when I joined the forum early last year, I used to look at the sigs to see what people were running. The Pio 880/800 are quite popular, and for good reason. Fifith, most people will have at least some EQ capaibilities (one? surely even a basic HU has bass and treble, LOL) and outboard processors (360.2, BitOne etc) are readily available. 

We are planning another shootout of the 12" subs so if we can easily do it, I'll see about RTAing without EQ. However, listening tests that involve just placing the sub in the car without any other eq or ta don't make sense to me as a worthwhile exercise. The auto eq and ta seeks to remove major quirks caused by the environment so that we can do a fair comparison.

The results are subjective but we plan to combine the scores from everyone to come up with a more objective result.



mvw2 said:


> I've used the DIYMA, RE SE12, and Dayton 12" (HF version). They're all quite a bit different from each other in terms of sound signature/presentation. All of them are good at their job, but a lot of the ranking will come down to personal preference. The problem is none of them really fault dramatically anywhere.
> 
> Blending problems points straight to a frequency response issue and maybe a time delay issue. It will be tough to get each dialed in well one after another. Unless you're spending half an hour with each before the listening session, I doubt they were all set equally. I know the automatic EQ, T/A thing was used, but it is useful to run back through the settings and verify the results. Sometimes the HU will do goofy things in order to satisfy what it defines as "ideal." It could very well be a root problem of some issues with blending and presentation. The auto processing is neat, but it doesn't 100% replace the human element. I know there have been a number of posts on this forum stating some very goofy results. Don't take what the HU does blindly. Look at the results and fix what's out of place.
> 
> ...


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

I wasn't specifically denouncing the auto setting or specifically stating that it should always be adjusted manually. It's just that you do want to verify the results when finished. I only say this because I've read people commenting about some seriously funny results from the auto tuning system, TA way out of wack, phase switching, just odd stuff that shouldn't really be there. I merely suggest verifying what the HU set to make sure it did something appropriate. An out of whack setting can very easily throw off the end presentation of a sub and skew your results. It's simply a matter of covering all your bases.


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## partsman (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Great review! I can verify the greatness of the RE SE,I have a pair(sealed) seeing 1.5 each.Best moderate box sub I have heard.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

How would you describe the sound of RE in comparison to Dayton? What comes to mind? I am playing 10" ported game now and currently have 10" HF.

Thanks.


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Regarding the FR graph of the Dayton sub, there's a pretty severe dip at and around 125Hz, moreso than any other sub. Did you try reversing the polarity by chance?

What was the HP xover on the 7" midbass drivers and where/how are they setup/mounted? What does their response look like without a sub?

Talking about personal preferences, I'd personally want a bit more bass around 65Hz and under in my setup so my FR resp graph will look a bit bloated in the low end from the ones in this test, but the results are interesting nonetheless.


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## partsman (Nov 19, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

I have not used a Dayton.To me they are most similar to the old school (round )solobaric,just having more power handling,and more accurate SQ.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

I think when picking a sub it's best to approach the problem with the question of what can't be changed about the sub's performance. Usually things like efficiency, enclosure requirements, price, distortion performance, and total output. In other words, I wouldn't pay gobs of money for a sub that sounded good unless it sounded good for one of the reasons above. Else, it's just better sometimes to just buy a cheaper sub that can be tweaked to perform like the one you like (so long as the tweaks aren't too difficult to implement).

The problem with trying to read too much into comparisons like this one is you can't. Just take them for what they're worth. There are no "absolute" bests out there. You can probably make any sub sound both obviously better and worse than any other sub just by making simple changes to the conditions of the test... in other words you'll never get that perfectly fair and level playing ground.


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## DATCAT (Aug 3, 2009)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Great post thanks for all the work. I just installed a pair of the DIYMA's and sure is a BIG improvement over the 10" Kicker L5's I had. Thanks to you guys and others like you for helping folks like me make better informed equipment purchases......


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



npdang said:


> I think when picking a sub it's best to approach the problem with the question of what can't be changed about the sub's performance. Usually things like efficiency, enclosure requirements, price, distortion performance, and total output. In other words, I wouldn't pay gobs of money for a sub that sounded good unless it sounded good for one of the reasons above. Else, it's just better sometimes to just buy a cheaper sub that can be tweaked to perform like the one you like (so long as the tweaks aren't too difficult to implement).
> 
> The problem with trying to read too much into comparisons like this one is you can't. Just take them for what they're worth. There are no "absolute" bests out there. You can probably make any sub sound both obviously better and worse than any other sub just by making simple changes to the conditions of the test... in other words you'll never get that perfectly fair and level playing ground.


Exactly! Most of the Austin DIYMA folks are running the 800/880 so this was an added factor in our decision to run the auto eq and ta before testing. Given that we are not professional reviewers and have a limited period of time to audition each sub, we felt that running auto eq/ta would present each sub in a real world situation.

I purchased 2 more subs to add to the tests - a JBL GTO1204D and a DLS Reference MW12.


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



jsun_g said:


> Regarding the FR graph of the Dayton sub, there's a pretty severe dip at and around 125Hz, moreso than any other sub. Did you try reversing the polarity by chance?


I run mine reversed (I have 10" HF though). It sounds more upfront that way.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

It shouldn't sound any different which way it is mounted. The only thing that would change is phasing if you didn't already account for that.


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## BLD 25 (Apr 13, 2007)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Would you consider testing these ported? I have never heard the Dayton, but from what i have read here, it really shines when it is ported. Also, from what I understand, when ported it requires about 1.5 cubes net, so are you sure that the 1.25 sealed wasn't a little too big?

thanks for testing these! How did they compare to your Morel?


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## Mooble (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

We could possibly test some of these ported to see if it makes a difference. The problem is that we only have a few enclosures so we would want to test everything sealed first and then try a port on a few of them. 

I can answer the Morel question. I was very impressed with several subs: Boston, Dayton, DIYMA, TC Sounds, but none did everything as well as the Ultimo. If price factored into the results, other subs would top the Ultimo because they sounded nearly as good for a fraction of the price. Still, for the absolute best sound, nothing could beat the Ultimo.

We are trying to organize a blind test for the final subs and we even have a few new ones to test. I still think the Ultimo will score the best in the blind test. This is all subjective, however. You may not like the dry sound of the Ultimo. Someone else might score everything the other way.


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## BLD 25 (Apr 13, 2007)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

My Idmax has been described as dry as well, and I love it. If I were closer, I would let you test it as well. I Would love to hear about the HO ported, because a lot that I have read says, "eh" for sealed and "wow" for ported. Thanks!


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## Maglite (Dec 28, 2009)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Good info so far.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Great shootout thanks for taking the time guys. :burnout:


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## lucas569 (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



sqshoestring said:


> Great shootout thanks for taking the time guys. :burnout:


+1...


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## freemind (Sep 11, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Thanks for the review. I feel really good about my RE SE10d4 now(even though it is a 10")


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## TexZen (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



lucas569 said:


> +1...


+1 as well. Great job guys. Hope to be out at the next one!


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

I'm glad people have found this useful. It has been an interesting experience for us as well. Hope to have some more 12" subs tested in the coming weeks: DLS, JBL GTO, JL 12W6v2, American Bass, etc. Possibly some 10" subs as well.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



Can't wait to see what you test


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*JBL GTO 12*

I had the JBL GTO 12 4 ohm DVC in my car for 1-2 months. I used a commerically available 1.35 cu ft sealed enclosure. Its a very good SQ sub for under $100 (I got mine new for $85 shipped off of ebay). Blends well and has no obnoxious traits. I'd rate it just below the Dayton 12 HO and HSU ASW12. At this price point, you do get what you pay for so I don't think the JBL is quite as good as the Dayton or HSU. But at nearly half the price, its a bargain. This is a great SQ sub for people on a tight budget.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*JL 12W6v2*

I picked up a used "Dubya six" off of ebay and finally got around to putting it in the car. Used a commercially available 1.35 cu ft sealed enclosure. I think this enclosure is a tad small relative to JL's reccomendations. Had it in my car for 1-2 months and listened to a wide variety of material. 

After spending time listening to this sub, I understand why people like it so much. Its an excellent SQ that can also get very loud. In that respect it reminded me a lot of the RE SE12D4, and I would put it on par with the SE12D4. You can pull up next to a basshead, slip in your Bass Mechanik CD and still enjoy great SQ. Very authoritative. Blended well with a variety of material. If you have the room, I suspect this sub would sound even better in 1.5 to 2 cu ft. sealed. I think the BA G512-44 is slightly better though. 

The 12W6v2 can be had for around $250 used.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Updated rankings:


Morel Ultimo 12-2
Boston Acoustics G512-44
RE SE12D4, JL 12W6v2
Dayton 12 HO, DIYMA R12, and HSU ASW1203
JBL GTO 12D4
Cadence
Hertz


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Interesting update. It's unfortunate that neither BA or RE SE are available as new any more. Would RE SEX12 keep up with the SE in SQ? I hope it's significantly better than my lower grade RE SRX12, which is enjoyable, but IMO a little hard to integrate with front stage. It would the only subwoofer you ever need if your components can play down to like 50-60Hz with authority. Otherwise, there is something lacking on many recordings.

I would love to see Infinity Kappa, IDQ, or Peerless sub thrown into this comparison at some point.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



ZAKOH said:


> Interesting update. It's unfortunate that neither BA or RE SE are available as new any more. Would RE SEX12 keep up with the SE in SQ? I hope it's significantly better than my lower grade RE SRX12, which is enjoyable, but IMO a little hard to integrate with front stage. It would the only subwoofer you ever need if your components can play down to like 50-60Hz with authority. Otherwise, there is something lacking on many recordings.
> 
> I would love to see Infinity Kappa, IDQ, or Peerless sub thrown into this comparison at some point.


I recall checking the specs on one of the current RE lines against the original SE and I think the SEX 12 had identical T/S specs to the SE so it should, in theory, sound pretty similar. Keep in mind that my RE SE12 was an American made sub (thought its quite possible at least some of the aprts were made offshore) while the current SEX line is made in China. 

As money and time permits, I will be trying out additional subs. I have heard IDQs in someone else's car - he had dual IDQ 12s, and they sounded quite good. I may see if I can convince him to let me listen to one of them in my car. FYI, the HiVi 10" sold at PE models up nicely ported.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



BLD 25 said:


> Would you consider testing these ported? I have never heard the Dayton, but from what i have read here, it really shines when it is ported. Also, from what I understand, when ported it requires about 1.5 cubes net, so are you sure that the 1.25 sealed wasn't a little too big?
> 
> thanks for testing these! How did they compare to your Morel?


The Dayton works great sealed or ported. When we tested we did try to follow the manufacturer's reccomended enclosure size. Testing ported is a little trickier because each sub may have significantly different size and port requirements, so I think it would take a lot more effort than I am willing to put into it. Frankly, I was just going around buying up subs new and used, based on my interest in the sub and how much money I had at the time. I have a demanding day job so its difficult to find time.

I don't think I mentioned it in this thread, but after I got my Ultimo 12, two other DIYMA folks (Mooble and DMazyn) went out and bought Morel Ultimos. Both of them agreed that none of the subs we tested unseated the Morel Ultimo 12 as the best sub we have heard. I have update my subjective ratings to include the Morel.


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## Viggen (May 2, 2011)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

If you want to test out a older IDQ (I do not know which version) I have a IDQ12 I could mail to you, just send it back to me when done.


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## Danometal (Nov 16, 2009)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Maybe you can throw JBL's Power series subs in the comparo. I had a SE/x 15 and it was great, but my current P1224 ported, tuned low beats it for sure.


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## Sadus (Sep 8, 2011)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

I know its already been discussed but I would think you would want everything set any EQs totally flat to remain consistent between tests, and just adjust gain to match SPL. If the head unit is changing the EQ between tests then you are benchmarking how the head unit auto-eqs these various subs in your car, not how these various subs perform on their own... Sure your car will be a factor but I think that's a lot closer to comparing apples to apples. Maybe do a quick free air benchmark too if possible just to compare. Just my newbie 2 cents


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## Mless5 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

I have played with both DIYMA and G5 as well in sealed boxes and I have to say I am really impressed with G5! Blends very well, very smooth and accurate sound, but can play loud if asked to. I am giving it mere 75wrms (8ohms) and it sounds great! I can't imagine what would it turn into with proper power.

Thanks to the OP for your time and effort!


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



snaimpally said:


> I recall checking the specs on one of the current RE lines against the original SE and I think the SEX 12 had identical T/S specs to the SE so it should, in theory, sound pretty similar. Keep in mind that my RE SE12 was an American made sub (thought its quite possible at least some of the aprts were made offshore) while the current SEX line is made in China.


If that is the case, it seems based on your subjective ranking that RE SE/X (as well as Daytons) must be a very good value, given their online prices are roughly half of JL W6 subs.


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## rape_ape (Sep 22, 2010)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*

Any chance of getting an Alpine Type-R (new version) into the mix??


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



Sadus said:


> I know its already been discussed but I would think you would want everything set any EQs totally flat to remain consistent between tests, and just adjust gain to match SPL. If the head unit is changing the EQ between tests then you are benchmarking how the head unit auto-eqs these various subs in your car, not how these various subs perform on their own... Sure your car will be a factor but I think that's a lot closer to comparing apples to apples. Maybe do a quick free air benchmark too if possible just to compare. Just my newbie 2 cents


Yeah, we discussed this point quite a bit. However, most people have access to some form of eq and t/a, so I think it made more sense to use the best available settings. The HU we were using, the Pioneer 880PRS was available new for around $250 and used for substantially less, putting it in the reach of most people. We ran auto eq and ta each time to get the best performance we could get out of the sub. Also, I think running auto eq ta is more realistic because in real life most people would do some eq and ta. I thought it leveled the playing field somewhat, but others may disagree.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



ZAKOH said:


> If that is the case, it seems based on your subjective ranking that RE SE/X (as well as Daytons) must be a very good value, given their online prices are roughly half of JL W6 subs.


Yes! Dr.TelepathySQ, one of my advisers in my journey into car audio. had recommended the SE12D4 and he has a lot of experience. His opinion proved to be correct.

BTW, Sonic Electronix currently has the SEX12D4 on sale ($130). Bargain price for an excellent SQ sub.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: 12" Subwoofer shootout Part 1 - Dayton, DIYMA , RE SE, Boston G5, Hsu, Hertz, Cad*



rape_ape said:


> Any chance of getting an Alpine Type-R (new version) into the mix??


I had picked up a Type R for testing but work etc. keep me too busy these days so I had to pass. Perhaps at a later time.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

*The importance of cone area*

My friend Glenn (GLN305) espouses the virtues of cone area. He recommended two 12" subs or a 15" for my little hatchback but I kept thinking it was overkill. However, after I found another BA G51244, I decided to run two 12" subs just for fun. Lo and behold, Glenn was (of course) correct. With 2 subs, each sub has to work less, thereby improving transparency and making the subs more difficult to localize.

So I suggest getting two subs to mimic the transparency of the Ultimo 12. For example, two SEX12D4's would make an excellent combination.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

*Re: The importance of cone area*



snaimpally said:


> My friend Glenn (GLN305) espouses the virtues of cone area. He recommended two 12" subs or a 15" for my little hatchback but I kept thinking it was overkill. However, after I found another BA G51244, I decided to run two 12" subs just for fun. Lo and behold, Glenn was (of course) correct. With 2 subs, each sub has to work less, thereby improving transparency and making the subs more difficult to localize.
> 
> So I suggest getting two subs to mimic the transparency of the Ultimo 12. For example, two SEX12D4's would make an excellent combination.


But of course! Glenn's always right


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