# Finished my Install (C6 Corvette)



## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Well it's been a long week. I wanted to document and film the install, but my GoPro supplier fell through and I was only able to take so many pictures. Anywho, I started last Friday (21 Apr) around 3 in the afternoon. I started by sanding and prepping my sub box. It is a custom box made specifically for a JL 10W7 and 2 amps to fit in a C6 Corvette. I decided to wrap it in carbon fiber vinyl. Wrapping complex shapes in vinyl sucks to say the least. It came out meh...I'm going to change it back to charcoal carpet. The next day, I got busy. I cleaned out the garage so I could park the car in it almost sideways. Complete access was needed with both doors and hatch open for long periods of time. I also wanted to measure before and after sound deadening with a dB meter to see how much of a difference deadening made. So I took a bunch of measurements. Car running, off, cutouts open, closed, windows up, down, etc. After the measuring period, I then completely gutted the interior. Seats, console, waterfall, carpet, trim, hatch trim and carpet, and all speakers (minus the center chime speaker) came out. Now the fun began. 

Since I'm an analytical person, I researched the best possible sound deadening materials. I ended up ordering a ton of sound deadening from various places...all because they were the best. I used a combination of CLD tiles, KnuKoncepts Kolossus mat, HMF, butyl rope, speaker baffles, and industrial strength Velcro to complete the process. I used about 45 of the tiles (never did remove the headliner like I wanted) and 5 sheets of the Kolossus. I knocked or tapped on almost every inch of the car doing everything possible to remove "tinny or hollow" sounding metal or plastic. Turns out the hatch area is very poor at keeping sound out...even with all the added material. I couldn't get it to quiet down as much as I wanted. Yes, the sound deadening material made a dramatic difference, but it still wasn't as much as I had hoped. I spent easily 15 hours on sound deadening...rolling, tapping, applying material, rolling, tapping more, in attempts to neutralize vibrations, rattles, and noises. I was as meticulous as possible. After the butyl based material was applied, I got to the Hydrophobic Melamine Foam (HMF). This stuff is great! Its very light weight, won't absorb water, and provides a "barrier" between panels and the interior. It's MUCH better than the factory denim type insulation. I lined the hatch, driver and passenger floor pans, waterfall, and tunnel with it. A word of caution, even though it's only 3/4" thick and very compressible, it did make parts of the carpet "bulge" a bit more than normal. Also, even after cutting out holes for the seat hardware, the seats were about 25% more difficult to install. The rail covers on the front of the seat rails were a PITA to get back on. Just push REALLY REALLY hard and cuss a few times and they'll go back on...or just cut a larger hole in the foam. After the deadening was all said and done, I'm happy (as I can be) with the outcome. This took me about 12-13 hours in total to do, not including the tear down. In the timeline however, after the butyl based material was applied, I got to the wiring part of the install.

Wiring. This IMO is the most CRUCIAL part of any install. You can have awesome gear (amps, speakers, subs, etc.) and completely ruin it with crappy wiring. I was appalled at the quality (or lack of) the wiring from previous installs done by "professional installers" in some of my vehicles. Trust me when I say, a car audio shop DOES NOT CARE about going the extra mile or spending a few extra minutes making sure their wire job is good. They just want it done as fast as possible and to get your car out of their shop. Trust me on this. I didn't want that for my Z. So, I spent the extra money on things like wire ferrules, tech flex, and heat shrink to do the wiring right! I'm just sorry that I don't have more pics. This is also where the real work began. I put the box in the car and started to work out a "wire plan." I decided the power will run along the factory ground wire path through the right rear fender well area. I ran a 100A fuse about 8 inches from battery post then about a 2 foot section of 4G wire to a fused distribution block. I ran a 40A on the 4 channel and a 50A on the mono (per JLs instructions). I kept the 4G wire throughout because I don't like the idea of stepping down to an 8G. I wanted max power delivery and max ground. So my ground wires are also 4G, grounded to the factory location behind the passenger seat. I also run the ground to a distribution block tucked behind the right rear speaker in the cubby. I secured both distribution blocks with heavy duty Velcro. They don't budge. Now that power/ground are run, it was time for RCAs. I pulled the HU and connected my 3 RCAs. I chose 16' RCAs because I didn't want too short of a cable. I also "braided" the 3 RCAs together in a standard weave. This helps reduce interference and supposedly makes for a cleaner sound. 16' was right on the money after braiding. I had just enough length to tuck everything into a conforming position as to not interfere with panels/carpet going back on. Now since the RCAs were done time to move onto the speaker wire. This sucked. I decided to run 12 gauge because that was the smallest wire I could run at the lengths I needed that wouldn't cause signal degradation. The crappy part is the need to drill a hole in the cover that closes off the door "accordion conduit." Once I popped the covers, I had to contort my body into positions I didn't know I could flex into to get the drill in a position effective enough to drill the holes. I had bought a 50' roll since I was wiring every speaker and crossover with the 12G stuff and I didn’t want to run out. After the running of all the wires, I had about 2 feet unused. 48' of wire later....LOL! Just enough. Popped the caps back in place and ran the wires to the amp location. I ran the wire along the factory seat wiring and up the waterfall into the hatch area. Then I joined them with the RCA bundle. The rear speakers were super easy because the sub box sits right between them. No crossovers or anything. In "quality wiring" fashion, I used heat shrink on ALL ends and KnuKoncept "Y"s on all amp to speaker connections. These just keep the wire from splitting further down than you intend...in addition to making it look clean, but they can be finicky to put on. Just be patient. I also used gold wire ends on all connections. Now that all my wires were run, I did the first test fit. Box in, amps in, wires mock installed. All the lengths checked out. Happy with that, I stopped for the day. 

Day 3, onto the speakers. I installed the Nakidparts door adapters. These made the install of the speakers very easy. Great product! I lined them with butyl rope and installed them in the doors and then taped down the speaker baffles temporarily. After test fitting the speakers (which all fit perfectly), I had to decide where to mount the crossovers. I ended up putting them in the base of the door on the flat spot between the inner/outer door. I cleaned the area with alcohol and used heavy duty Velcro again. (NOTE: Use a “Dynamat” roller to stick down Velcro, it is VERY effective) Once the crossover location was determined, I ran made the tweeter/woofer wires and finish mounted the woofers. I also drilled a hole in the door adapter to run the tweeter wire out of since they’re mounted to the door panel. Now that all the component wires are setup, I vacuumed up the area and finish mounted all of it and reinstalled the door panels. The rear speakers were super easy. Out with the old, in with the new. I just had to be VERY gentle with the negative posts since they’re so tiny and fragile. So all speakers were wired and ready to go, it was time to check my work. I plugged up the amps, installed all the wiring (minus the sub…hadn’t installed that yet) and fired it up. They all worked! Now it was time to start “final assembly” of everything. 

Day 4, I kept wondering of a good way to “mount” my sub box. After all, who needs 80 pounds of audio gear flopping/sliding around every time you move? I had some ideas to weld “L-brackets” to the floor pan and use bolts. I thought about drilling through the waterfall (risky because of gas tank). In the end I copied another forum member method of gluing a sheet of ¾” MDF to the hatch floor and drilling into that. Makes the most sense since you’re not putting holes in the car. So I grabbed a piece of MDF from Lowes and had it cut to the desired size. Then I cleared the deadener off that particular spot and applied the glue (a combination of Loctite adhesive, and DAP multi-surface adhesive around the edges) on the raised portions of the hatch ridges. In the valleys, I ran Kolossus strips. I let that sit overnight and in the mean time I drilled the pilot holes in the base of my sub box. Now is also when I started to cut and fit the HMF mentioned earlier. I used a combination of carpet tape and gorilla tape to tack down the HMF. I didn’t want any of this stuff to be permanent in case I wanted to install a roll cage or do some other work that required its removal. At this point, the car is now as “deadened” as it was going to get and I started to reinstall the interior panels and carpet. The driver/passenger carpet “buckets” were vacuumed and reinstalled. Then the waterfall carpet. And finally the hatch carpet. I did remove a section of the factory insulation under where the sub box sits. That facilitated running the wires under it and ensuring I didn’t need a 5” screw to hold the box down. With the hatch carpet laid down, I took some measurements to figure out where to make my cuts. Cut my slits and pulled the wires through. Of note, I made sure to orient and route my wires so that each one was lying flat and not tangled around other wires. This made the carpet sit as flat as possible. I also laid each of the 4G power and ground wires in a “valley” of the hatch floor. That made them invisible from the top. The ¾” MDF also created a nice “channel” for the RCAs and other wires to rest in. At this point, I finished reinstalling the interior, except for the waterfall and center console. I left this off until last in case I needed to re-adjust any of the cables from the HU. Poured a drink and called it a night.

Day 5 rolls around and it’s time to get this finished. I grabbed the sub box, and put her in. Grabbed all the wires and ran them to the correct places. Installed the amps and secured them. Connected the power/ground/remote wires and RCAs. Now I needed to set my gains. I grabbed the volt meter and did the math. I needed 18.9 volts for the front speakers, and 15.4 volts for the rears. I set them with the HU at 50% playing pink noise. Hooked the speaker wires back up and bolted the sub box down. I dropped in the sub and bolted her down. Hooked up the sub wiring and DONE!!! Finally after a week of working day and night it was finally here. I fired it up and cranked it up. MISTAKE!! I forgot to adjust my crossovers first. I was hearing too much bass from the small speakers and it could’ve been dangerous. I managed to dodge a bullet and turned the volume down. I set the front crossover to HPF on and playing everything to 65Hz with a sharp 12db roll-off. I then set the rear to 100Hz with a gradual 12db roll off. No sense in anything below 100Hz going to a 5 ¼” speaker. Everything was still REALLY loud. So I turned my gains down on the speakers and volume up on the HU. This was the balance needed. I got the mids/highs sounding clear and clean and turned it up as loud as I could handle. Still clear, clean, and no distortion. Then I got the sub going. Turned the gain up to where it was needed. Now that she’s tuned…I can safely say that it sounds GREAT! The combination of speakers and parts really complement each other. Every song I played sounded razor sharp and you could hear the “detail” in the music. It’s pretty much everything I wanted. On a bummer note, I will have to pull the sub box out and cover it in carpet. I didn’t know this, but vinyl has a “plastic” consistency that you can hear as a vibration from the sub box. Live and learn I suppose. The only remaining items to do is make my amp covers. I have a sheet of clear lexan that I need to trim and drill, and then I also want to line the amp trays with some felt, fleece, or maybe some pleather. Overall I’m VERY happy with my work and I’m glad to know that my system was not hastily installed and that it was done right! (NOTE: I will add the list of parts I used, db measurements before and after, and pics after I get home from work, stay tuned!)

Measurements Before/After: 
(Engine off)
Windows up - 39 db / 38.5 db
Windows down - 39.8 db / 39 db

(Engine running)
Windows up (M2W closed) - 57 db / 53.5 db
Windows down (M2W closed) - 59 db / 58 db
Windows up (M2W open) - 70 db / 65.3 db
Windows down (M2W open) - 73 db / 71 db
Stereo playing W/U - 94 db (as loud as I could get it without distortion) / 102 db (metal song, not bass heavy and at normal volume)
Stereo playing W/D - 91 db / 97 db

Equipment List: (Disclaimer: I already had 4 gauge wire from previous installs that was in great condition, so that wasn't an expense listed here)
Pioneer 8200NEX - $650
Subwoofer enclosure - $675
JL 300/4 Slash series Amp - $770 (a few years ago)
JL 500/1 Slash - $689 (Also a few years ago)
Subwoofer JL 10W7AE - $450 (got it on sale a while back)
Morel Maximo 6.5" Components - $150 (on sale from Crutchfield)
Focal Integration 5.25" Coaxials - $100 (on sale from Crutchfield)
Sound deadening - $400
Capacitor - $30
Wires/Wire accessories - $181
Hardware/Miscellaneous - $327 
Total Cost - $4,422


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

more pics...


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Finished (well almost) product...sounds decent enough.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Dang...almost 200 views and not even a "you suck" comment. How active is this place?


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## disconnected (May 10, 2017)

Great job!


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## S6Per (May 22, 2016)

Sounds like a nice turbo session from start to finish!  Post a pic when you have that sub box done (again  ).


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Thanks, I will. Also, I'm a bit bummed. I found out that I had pinched an RCA (sub RCA) when reinstalling my HU. This caused my sub to turn on/off intermittently. Sucks. But I found it...and it's a cheap fix at least.


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## chithead (Mar 19, 2008)

That is an amazing amount of detail in your post! Excellent work on the install (and description) - definitely can't go wrong with a combination of Morel and JL - I've used similar combos in the past and always loved them.


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## moparnut (May 30, 2018)

Congrats on a job well done.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Thanks all. Believe it or not...I'm actually quite disappointed with the Morels. They sound quite dull and can't keep up with the Focals in the rear. That's weird too since the Morel's are 6.5 components and the Focals are only 5.25 coaxials. I'm HEAVILY leaning towards the Focal 165KX3 and a DSP. I just can't seem to get the sound I'm looking for.


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## txsound (Jan 22, 2014)

I bet the feeling of being done was GRAND! I agree with the wiring being the most important. I am undoing an install I did back 2013 and I am very surprised of my wiring "techniques" (mainly inconsistencies).

Enjoy!


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## Gramps (Jul 10, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Thanks all. Believe it or not...I'm actually quite disappointed with the Morels. They sound quite dull and can't keep up with the Focals in the rear. That's weird too since the Morel's are 6.5 components and the Focals are only 5.25 coaxials. I'm HEAVILY leaning towards the Focal 165KX3 and a DSP. I just can't seem to get the sound I'm looking for.


1st of all, nice job and attention to detail.
As for the fronts, have you tried to fade the rears out to bring the front stage to life?? Maybe some tuning with the crossovers or tweeter angles may help??
Keep up the great work, although I’m not a v8 fan, (more into turbo rotors) i still cant deny the awesomeness of a LS v8, for a good old pushrod engine, they sure do pack a punch!!
Krem


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Gramps said:


> 1st of all, nice job and attention to detail.
> As for the fronts, have you tried to fade the rears out to bring the front stage to life?? Maybe some tuning with the crossovers or tweeter angles may help??
> Keep up the great work, although I’m not a v8 fan, (more into turbo rotors) i still cant deny the awesomeness of a LS v8, for a good old pushrod engine, they sure do pack a punch!!
> Krem


Thanks for the attaboy. I have tried that actually. I've gone as far as turning the rears off completely and tuning the fronts that way. They sound decent when playing by themselves, but still a bit dull. That was my issue, it didn't matter how much crossover I played with, how much gain I gave them...I just can't get them to sound as good as the entry level Focals I have in the rear. I really think a built 3-way will tie the system together and move the sound stage forward.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

The Morels bum me out. So flat sounding. They'd be good for a factory upgrade running off a head unit. I'm going to try and Band-Aid them for now until I can buy some better speaks.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> The Morels bum me out. So flat sounding. They'd be good for a factory upgrade running off a head unit. I'm going to try and Band-Aid them for now until I can buy some better speaks.


The krx3 are deafingly harsh. I think there are much better options for the money. Scrap the rears go with a nice front component active with dsp. You won't even miss the rear speakers. Also did you use any MLV?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Not MLV, but I used HMF over all the flat surfaces.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Not MLV, but I used HMF over all the flat surfaces.


That's part of the reason why you didn't see as much of a decrease in dB for sound deadening. HMF doesn't block sound only decouples. I could see why you wouldn't want to add weight to a z06 but if you want to get rid of road noise it will help a million times more than HMF.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Dude, I put in like 4 boxes of CLD and Kolossus mat...Not sure how much more I could deaden. It was tough to with just what I added to get the panels to fit back into place.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Dude, I put in like 4 boxes of CLD and Kolossus mat...Not sure how much more I could deaden. It was tough to with just what I added to get the panels to fit back into place.



CLD and Kolossus does absolutely nothing to cut down on road noise. Only cuts down on panel resonance (vibration). I used 108sq/ft of dynamat and it did nothing for road noise I mean litteraly NOTHING. I was very let down. I then used mlv in the doors hatch and floor and it made a huge difference like monumental difference.


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## disconnected (May 10, 2017)

I used lots of MLV in my corvette. You can see the pictures on the corvette forums.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

disconnected said:


> I used lots of MLV in my corvette. You can see the pictures on the corvette forums.


Attach some pics! I have a slight obsession with Corvettes hopefully have a zr1 one day!


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

I would also be interested in pics. Especially to get a warm and fuzzy before gutting my interior all over again...


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I would also be interested in pics. Especially to get a warm and fuzzy before gutting my interior all over again...


If you go with mlv you won't be let down.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

For the doors and quarter panels, should you put it on the metal side, or the panel side?


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> For the doors and quarter panels, should you put it on the metal side, or the panel side?


It going between the door panel and inner metal skin. I used 1/16" ccf from foam factory came in 4'x8' sheets and glued it to both sides using oatley vinyl glue here is a link to my build thread. Feel free to ask many questions as you need. https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/build-logs-project-install-gallery/406763-2005-honda-pilot.html


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

UPDATE!!
Switched to a 3 way component set. Basically added 2 Dayton 4" mid-drivers and an Audiopipe 3 way crossover. All in all, it was right around $110 to upgrade. All I can say is it was WELL WORTH IT! The off axis orientation of the tweeters prior to the upgrade made the high sound muted. Now they're pointed right at me. What a difference! Oh yeah, that and the additional mid-drivers. Those things get after it. For such a cheap speaker, you'd be remiss not to buy one...or 4 LOL. So, initial impressions are it was exactly what I was missing. I'm happy at the way she sounds and I'm going to hold off on a DSP for now until I get some break in time on the setup. Overall, super excited.


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## disconnected (May 10, 2017)

Do you have install pictures of the Dayton 4"? Did you go with the RS100-4 or RS100p-4?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

RS100-4. No, I didn't take any pics of the install since it was nothing really noteworthy. I did have to make some speaker mounts to fit in the stock location. But once I made them, they bolted right in and wired right up. I mounted the tweeter with some Velcro in case I want to move them later (and while I'm have some tweeter pods made).


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Update: Really hi-heavy now. Feels like I need MORE bass...crazy since I have a 10W7 in there. I think I need more gain in the sub. Honestly...I think I'm turning into a diva because I'm still not happy. I think I may need to go active and bite the bullet and get a DSP. I think the RTA and tuning will be the only way that I'll be really happy. Or at least then I can see where my peaks and valleys are. Frustrating to say the least.


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## maybebigfootisblurr (Nov 4, 2011)

Have you tried the tweeters on-axis without the Dayton mids?


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Update: Really hi-heavy now. Feels like I need MORE bass...crazy since I have a 10W7 in there. I think I need more gain in the sub. Honestly...I think I'm turning into a diva because I'm still not happy. I think I may need to go active and bite the bullet and get a DSP. I think the RTA and tuning will be the only way that I'll be really happy. Or at least then I can see where my peaks and valleys are. Frustrating to say the least.


Active with dsp will be a whole new world. I recently changed over and the only downfall I have is I didn't listen and bought an audison bit ten. If your gonna go dsp wait for the new helix mini to come out or get the current model. Only thing I can say is stay away from Audison. Also Andy from audio frog wrote a paper on tuning in his website very awesome read.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> Active with dsp will be a whole new world. I recently changed over and the only downfall I have is I didn't listen and bought an audison bit ten. If your gonna go dsp wait for the new helix mini to come out or get the current model. Only thing I can say is stay away from Audison. Also Andy from audio frog wrote a paper on tuning in his website very awesome read.


Curious...why stay away from Audison? They're supposed to be one of the best...


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

kfinch said:


> Have you tried the tweeters on-axis without the Dayton mids?


No. I really like the fronts now. The sound stage in the front of the car sounds awesome. I think I just really need some RTA help.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Curious...why stay away from Audison? They're supposed to be one of the best...


I have a huge noise problem including alternator whine. I have changed all my grounds and spoken with Audison. "It's just how they are" is what I have gotten from two people. Read up on here on drc problems all sorts of issues. 100 Audison problems to maybe one Helix issue or more. Some people on here wouldn't run Audison if it was free. I realize why they say that now just from the few issues I have had.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Dang. Good to know.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Dang. Good to know.


Are you going to use mlv on the floor?


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## GMCtrk (Apr 14, 2018)

how do you like the W7?


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## bassace (Oct 31, 2011)

Redliner99 said:


> I have a huge noise problem including alternator whine. I have changed all my grounds and spoken with Audison. "It's just how they are" is what I have gotten from two people. Read up on here on drc problems all sorts of issues. 100 Audison problems to maybe one Helix issue or more. Some people on here wouldn't run Audison if it was free. I realize why they say that now just from the few issues I have had.


I wonder if putting an inductor in series and a low ESR cap in parallel with the power input would filter out high frequency noises? 

Just an idea to toss out there.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

bassace said:


> I wonder if putting an inductor in series and a low ESR cap in parallel with the power input would filter out high frequency noises?
> 
> Just an idea to toss out there.


Send me a pm let's chat about this more if you want


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> Are you going to use mlv on the floor?


Thought I knew **** when I started this, turns out I didn't know ****, and now I'm fixing ****. So, yes! I'm actually trying to get some CAE VB-2,3, and 4 as well as a new passenger side door card since mine has always had a broken mount that's creating a rattle. Irritating AF! I do appreciate the wealth of knowledge on this forum. Although my walet hates me because that knowledge costs me money!



GMCtrk said:


> how do you like the W7?


Funny you ask. I actually don't particularly care for the W7...in a corvette. I think it's just too much sub. Think of it as an SPL trying to be run in an SQ build. Mismatched. I'm actually selling it and switching to 2 shallow 10's. I would like to run the Illusion C10's...but they're expensive and I've NEVER heard one. It's hard for me to spend that kind of money on something I've never heard. That being said, I have extensive experience with JL shallows. Been around them for 15 years and they've always sounded great. So I think I'm going back to the good old 10TW3 or TW1...never ran a set of 3's, but they have a bit more excursion than the 1's. Been eager to hear a set in one of my combo's. I have TW1's in my truck, and they sound beautiful. Perfect speaker for small spaces IMO...just like my vette.

Long overdue update:
Switched the Morel 6.5's for Dayton DC160-4's and am pretty content. So currently, 3 way up front with The DC160s, RS100-4, and Morel 1" tweets. But as you see above...I need to add MLV to my deadening for some much needed noise reduction. Ditching the 10W7 for 2 shallow 10's (undecided on which for the moment). Either Illusion C10’s or JL10TW1’s or 3’s. I love the 1’s in my truck, they sound beautiful. But I’ve always wanted to try a set of 3’s in one of my builds. I’m also changing amps to the new JL VXi’s. I love the built in DSP feature and am eager to try them out. Not sure if I’m going to run a single 800/8, or bi-amp it with a 600/6 and a 600/1. I’m open to suggestions. Also, I’m going to ditch that Pioneer 8200 NEX for the Kenwood 995X. Something about Pioneer using a 4V preamp out instead of a 5V like the Kenwood just makes me cringe. So there’s where I’m at with this build. Thoughts from the community?


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

I just picked up an 05 c6. This is great


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Thought I knew **** when I started this, turns out I didn't know ****, and now I'm fixing ****. So, yes! I'm actually trying to get some CAE VB-2,3, and 4 as well as a new passenger side door card since mine has always had a broken mount that's creating a rattle. Irritating AF! I do appreciate the wealth of knowledge on this forum. Although my walet hates me because that knowledge costs me money!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Which kenwood are you switching to? I heard 1 10tw3 in a Tacoma and was very surprised how much output it had and how well it sounded. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> Which kenwood are you switching to? I heard 1 10tw3 in a Tacoma and was very surprised how much output it had and how well it sounded.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This one:
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_113DNX995S/Kenwood-Excelon-DNX995S.html


The T-dub-3's sound impressive for their size. They only need like .5 cu ft of space too. I saw 3 installed on the rear deck of a mustang once, and they hammered. Made me want to try them.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

UPDATE: I think you all are on to something about turning off the rear speakers. I tried that out today...been driving the vette all day. The Daytons have about 5 hours of "break-in" time on them now and it's really starting to become audible. I turned off the rears and just played with a little L/R balance action. Once I got them hitting my ears correctly, they actually sound quite good. Ever since putting the tweets on axis, they've sounded 10X better, so in all honesty, my front sound stage is sounding quite nice and detailed. Not as muddy as before. 

But that W7? I'm about 98% sure it's the wrong sub for my combo and I'm going to press with the 2 10TW3s and VXi amps. Looks like the 800/8 is going to get the nod.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> UPDATE: I think you all are on to something about turning off the rear speakers. I tried that out today...been driving the vette all day. The Daytons have about 5 hours of "break-in" time on them now and it's really starting to become audible. I turned off the rears and just played with a little L/R balance action. Once I got them hitting my ears correctly, they actually sound quite good. Ever since putting the tweets on axis, they've sounded 10X better, so in all honesty, my front sound stage is sounding quite nice and detailed. Not as muddy as before.
> 
> 
> 
> But that W7? I'm about 98% sure it's the wrong sub for my combo and I'm going to press with the 2 10TW3s and VXi amps. Looks like the 800/8 is going to get the nod.




What are you using for tuning?


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> UPDATE: I think you all are on to something about turning off the rear speakers. I tried that out today...been driving the vette all day. The Daytons have about 5 hours of "break-in" time on them now and it's really starting to become audible. I turned off the rears and just played with a little L/R balance action. Once I got them hitting my ears correctly, they actually sound quite good. Ever since putting the tweets on axis, they've sounded 10X better, so in all honesty, my front sound stage is sounding quite nice and detailed. Not as muddy as before.
> 
> But that W7? I'm about 98% sure it's the wrong sub for my combo and I'm going to press with the 2 10TW3s and VXi amps. Looks like the 800/8 is going to get the nod.


I disconnect rear speakers in all my vehicles. I do not like rear fill


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> What are you using for tuning?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll be using the VXi DSP and just a tablet with a microphone for RTA. I have some pink noise tracks to help out.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I'll be using the VXi DSP and just a tablet with a microphone for RTA. I have some pink noise tracks to help out.




Good stuff. Go on audiofrogs website I think you can get their test tracks 


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

If I may be so bold as to offer another solution to your issues. 
You do not have an equipment issue in this awesome car. Your issues are tune related. 
The sub you have is perfectly fine for your install. It simply needs to have some eq work to dial it in. I always have to eq my subs to taste. 
The hu you have us fine. The 1 volt difference is not that big of a deal. Especially if your not using any of the features of the radio except radio, cd or aux. 
the issues with your speakers is in the same situation as the sub. 
You also do not need the dsp in the newer amps. The amps you currently have are great pieces. 
I suggest (for your sanity and wallet sake) simply getting a stand alone dsp to take care of all your issues. The minidsp 8x12 is a great place to start but the helix is also popular here as well. You did a great job with the install, but as a person who has spent WAY to much money “upgrading” this and that, only to be disappointed that the newest latest greatest “upgrade” didn’t do as much as I expected. You will not hear a sonic difference between the pioneer and kenwood hu. 
However, I will also say I personally do not ever want combo units in my car or home ever again. Meaning, the amp with dsp is great until the amp has issues or the dsp has issues. With stand alone pieces you can swap and change things easily but with combo units your stuck with what you have. Also if a dsp takes a dump you can still have your system running or simply by another unit is you don’t like the dsp but with combo units you can not. 
I’m just saying you can spend less money than your about to spend and get a much better return than loosing money on the hu, amps, and speakers by simply installing a dsp unit and getting a mic and installing rew on your computer 
But hey, it’s your money, but why spend more if you don’t have to?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Iamsecond said:


> If I may be so bold as to offer another solution to your issues.
> You do not have an equipment issue in this awesome car. Your issues are tune related.
> The sub you have is perfectly fine for your install. It simply needs to have some eq work to dial it in. I always have to eq my subs to taste.
> The hu you have us fine. The 1 volt difference is not that big of a deal. Especially if your not using any of the features of the radio except radio, cd or aux.
> ...


Because inevitably, I have terrible luck with audio. Like right now...I started another thread because I'm having power issues to the amp. I agree that tuning is what is needed, but I would have to gut the stereo and start all over again just to install a DSP. So in my mind, I'd rather just swap to one unit (the VXi) because of space concerns. I think switching to 2 shallows is just a preference thing as every car I've listened to with shallows has sounded awesome. The W7 sounded good in my Tahoe. Either way, I'll sort this out and get it to how I want it.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

UPDATE: Removed rear speakers. Does anyone think I should bridge the 4 channels into 2 and run just the front sound stage?


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> UPDATE: Removed rear speakers. Does anyone think I should bridge the 4 channels into 2 and run just the front sound stage?




No go active with some sort of a dsp and quit wasting your time 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

I don't have enough channels right now. Need an 8 channel to go full active.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I don't have enough channels right now. Need an 8 channel to go full active.




Get a used helix or the vxi you wanted. Trust me you will be so happy you did it's game changing 


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

Nah, with a dsp you will be able to eq the 6.5 component set and not use the Dayton mid until you get a different amp or more channels. 
May need to slow down and realize your install may have to change to get what your after. This is common with this group. I have a temp install now because I’m changing things again for the 5th time. My system is great but I’m always changing things and trying out different gear.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Iamsecond said:


> Nah, with a dsp you will be able to eq the 6.5 component set and not use the Dayton mid until you get a different amp or more channels.
> 
> May need to slow down and realize your install may have to change to get what your after. This is common with this group. I have a temp install now because I’m changing things again for the 5th time. My system is great but I’m always changing things and trying out different gear.




I'm changing again as well but if the OP wants to run 3 way I see why he wants 8 channels. 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

OP already has 3 way, which means I MUST run an 8 channel. LOL

EDIT: Here's what I'm doing. I've made up my mind...finally. The plan is:
JL VXi 800/8, 1 channel per speaker (6 speakers) final channel bridged for 2 shallow 10's. The bridged channel is 200W RMS at 4 ohm. Should be plenty for 2 shallows that have 150 RMS as optimum.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> OP already has 3 way, which means I MUST run an 8 channel. LOL




What amps are you currently using?


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

Well, looks like new amps are in your immediate future. lol


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> What amps are you currently using?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


JL Slash V2 500/1 and same 300/4. Running passive crossovers in the front. Just deleted rear speakers.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Question for the community:
Should I be worried about the amps output (75W @ 4ohm ) on each channel since my 6.5" are only rated at 60W RMS and my mid-drivers are only rated at 30W RMS (60W Max) and my tweets are like 15W RMS. How do you regulate power output to each speaker?


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Question for the community:
> 
> Should I be worried about the amps output (75W @ 4ohm ) on each channel since my 6.5" are only rated at 60W RMS and my mid-drivers are only rated at 30W RMS (60W Max) and my tweets are like 15W RMS. How do you regulate power output to each speaker?




No not a big deal. You control power output with the gain. Your not running 100% gain at 100% volume ever. At high listening volume your likely only using maybe 5-10w. Plus your splitting power going into the crossover. People love those amps. Why not get an external dsp? Save money and get a better product like a used helix? 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

I didn't think gain worked that way. I thought output was output period. If the amp is 75W RMS, it's 75W regardless if the gain is on 5% or 100%. I thought the gain was just to match the amp output to voltage input from the HU? Am I totally wrong?


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I didn't think gain worked that way. I thought output was output period. If the amp is 75W RMS, it's 75W regardless if the gain is on 5% or 100%. I thought the gain was just to match the amp output to voltage input from the HU? Am I totally wrong?




My thought is if the gain is on 1% how is it putting out 75w? Just my thoughts. 


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

Gain is just matching the output voltage. It has nothing to do with more or less power

Just because you hage gain set to half. That doesnt mean youre only getting half power


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

ToNasty said:


> Gain is just matching the output voltage. It has nothing to do with more or less power
> 
> Just because you hage gain set to half. That doesnt mean youre only getting half power




So with my gain all the way off my tweets are getting 150w?


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

Redliner99 said:


> So with my gain all the way off my tweets are getting 150w?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


http://ddaudio.com/faq/amp-gain-up-or-down/

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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> So with my gain all the way off my tweets are getting 150w?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Basically, yes. You can't turn a gain to "0". All the way down is still like 1-2% gain. 150W RMS is 150W RMS regardless of gain. At least that's what I've been thinking all these years.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Basically, yes. You can't turn a gain to "0". All the way down is still like 1-2% gain. 150W RMS is 150W RMS regardless of gain. At least that's what I've been thinking all these years.




Interesting my 100w tweeters should have been blown 2 years ago then. I need to do some more reading then. 


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

Redliner99 said:


> Interesting my 100w tweeters should have been blown 2 years ago then. I need to do some more reading then.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Impedance rise has a lot to do with it

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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

ToNasty said:


> Impedance rise has a lot to do with it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk




So the impedance changes?


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

Redliner99 said:


> So the impedance changes?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Happens on every speaker in everything

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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

ToNasty said:


> Happens on every speaker in everything
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk




Weird if I unhook my tweeter from my amp I get 4ohms. 


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Apologies on clutter to the OP thread. Back to topic. 


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

Redliner99 said:


> Weird if I unhook my tweeter from my amp I get 4ohms.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Test it while its playing

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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> Apologies on clutter to the OP thread. Back to topic.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All good bro, this is concerning to me too. This site (even my own thread) has crushed everything I've thought I knew about audio.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> All good bro, this is concerning to me too. This site (even my own thread) has crushed everything I've thought I knew about audio.




You and me both me new set up will be get going for the 2nd version in 8 months lol 


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> All good bro, this is concerning to me too. This site (even my own thread) has crushed everything I've thought I knew about audio.


Takes a long time to learn. Hell 16 years in audio for me and im still learning

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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

https://www.audiofrog.com/community/tech-tips/pink-noise-white-noise-and-why-your-tweeters-never-get-150-watts/


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

JL VXi 800/8 is on it's way!!!


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> JL VXi 800/8 is on it's way!!!




Gonna eq your current sub before buy new ones?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I didn't think gain worked that way. I thought output was output period. If the amp is 75W RMS, it's 75W regardless if the gain is on 5% or 100%. I thought the gain was just to match the amp output to voltage input from the HU? Am I totally wrong?


^that^ is a common rookie thing to do.

However an amp is more like an engine.
It is not 200 HP all the time, and the throttle varies the torque.
If it was always 200 HP, then there wuld be no need for a throttle.
Occasionally one mashes it, but most of the time one is only using 10-20hp to poke down the road at a steady speed.

The 75W RMS amps realistically are only providing a handful of RMS watts. One could put a volt metr on speakers and see it themselves... it is astonishly low.

In fact with a 10w amp, just 1w of output is a lot in the upper registers.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Holmz said:


> ^that^ is a common rookie thing to do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes to all of that, my 15" sub will produce about 3/4" total excursion with about 6 watts at 20 hz, yet it will soak up about 2200 watts at full volume. 6 watts is louder than comfortable listening, even for a sub. Tweeters don't need much power at all to reach ear piercing levels.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

ckirocz28 said:


> Yes to all of that, my 15" sub will produce about 3/4" total excursion with about 6 watts at 20 hz, yet it will soak up about 2200 watts at full volume. 6 watts is louder than comfortable listening, even for a sub. Tweeters don't need much power at all to reach ear piercing levels.


Yeah...

This page:
https://www.google.com/search?sourc...ncy+band&oq=amplifier+power+by+frequency+band
...comes up in google as:

_For most audio applications more power is needed at low frequencies. This requires a high-power amplifier for low frequencies (e.g., 200 watts for 20–200 Hz band), lower power amplifier for the midrange (e.g., 50 watts for 200 to 1000 Hz), and even less the high end (e.g. 5 watts for 1000–20000 Hz)._

A lot of the energy is in the 20-80Hz range.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> Gonna eq your current sub before buy new ones?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Absolutely, yes!


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

It just got serious...

And for the record, I can't believe how truly TINY these amps are. They're itty bitty...pics soon.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> It just got serious...
> 
> 
> 
> And for the record, I can't believe how truly TINY these amps are. They're itty bitty...pics soon.




Are you going to bridge 7 & 8 for your sub 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> Are you going to bridge 7 & 8 for your sub
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No sir. Keeping the 500/1 Slash to power the W7. Turns out the DSP in the VXi can control multiple amps including older ones. So, I get to keep my sub amp that has been incredible all the years and is perfect for the current setup...and get to tune it through the VXi.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> No sir. Keeping the 500/1 Slash to power the W7. Turns out the DSP in the VXi can control multiple amps including older ones. So, I get to keep my sub amp that has been incredible all the years and is perfect for the current setup...and get to tune it through the VXi.




Why not go with a 6 channel then? 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Because the power output per channel was the same on both amps...and I thought maybe just maybe, I would elect to keep the rear speakers which would need 8 channels to be full active. But if I didn't, I could bridge the 2 extra channels for more power in the future. And hey, it's just money right? To me the option to grow or add more later was worth the extra $200.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Because the power output per channel was the same on both amps...and I thought maybe just maybe, I would elect to keep the rear speakers which would need 8 channels to be full active. But if I didn't, I could bridge the 2 extra channels for more power in the future. And hey, it's just money right? To me the option to grow or add more later was worth the extra $200.




Ahhh ok I forgot about the rear fill thing. I'm to the point now where I don't even think about having rear Fill or rear anything


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

I started to get there, but I never really reached a final conclusion about it. So in light of that, I didn't want to limit my options.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Just purchased an Audiofrog UMI-1 and True RTA level 4 kit.


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## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

My vote would be to bridge for more power on the midbasses than to mess around with rear fill.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

I've also been toying with the idea of making kick panels down low and removing the rear 5.25s to put them in the kicks...which would need the 2 extra channels. I really want to play with the RTA though and figure out if I have any cabin issues. Having the extra channels gave me options which was the intent the whole time...

EDIT: My mid bass's are only rated at 60W RMS and 120W peak. My amp puts out 75W RMS and 100W bridged. Only if a clear power problem existed do I think I would bridge them. The good news it will be very easy to do after everything is installed if I need to do so.


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Just purchased an Audiofrog UMI-1 and True RTA level 4 kit.


I'm not familiar with TrueRTA... May I ask what made you decide on TrueRTA vs REW? Features?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Truthunter said:


> I'm not familiar with TrueRTA... May I ask what made you decide on TrueRTA vs REW? Features?


I liked the 1/24th octave freq reading it can do. Seemed a bit more precise. Given, I'm still learning, but is seemed to me the more precision available, the better the final product. Then again, there's always the possibility that I threw away money.

Here's a good graphic of the differences...
https://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I've also been toying with the idea of making kick panels down low and removing the rear 5.25s to put them in the kicks...which would need the 2 extra channels. I really want to play with the RTA though and figure out if I have any cabin issues. Having the extra channels gave me options which was the intent the whole time...
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: My mid bass's are only rated at 60W RMS and 120W peak. My amp puts out 75W RMS and 100W bridged. Only if a clear power problem existed do I think I would bridge them. The good news it will be very easy to do after everything is installed if I need to do so.




Are you running a kick panel speaker a door speaker? Where is your tweeter located?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> Are you running a kick panel speaker a door speaker? Where is your tweeter located?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A-pillar pods pointed right at my nugget. SI M25s. 4" midrange in the original tweeter location and 6.5 in the factory lower door location. No kick panels exist. Thought about adding them and putting in the speakers that used to be in the rear.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> A-pillar pods pointed right at my nugget. SI M25s. 4" midrange in the original tweeter location and 6.5 in the factory lower door location. No kick panels exist. Thought about adding them and putting in the speakers that used to be in the rear.




I would tune before you start adding more speakers. 


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I liked the 1/24th octave freq reading it can do. Seemed a bit more precise.


As opposed to what? I not knocking you or TrueRTA at all, but REW does have much better than 1/24 octave resolution and it's free. Just be assured TrueRTA is also well known and respected and widely used, so you didn't waste your money, you just spent it unnecessarily. Kind of a common occurrence in this hobby.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> I would tune before you start adding more speakers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree 100% and that was my very intention. Same reason I didn't buy new subs...I wanted to try and dial in what I had before spending more moola.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I agree 100% and that was my very intention. Same reason I didn't buy new subs...I wanted to try and dial in what I had before spending more moola.




Good call 


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

Redliner99 said:


> I would tune before you start adding more speakers.


^^^ This! I'm going to quote myself from my own build log:



Truthunter said:


> Last week I finally got around to tinkering around with REW. Took some RTA readings using non-correlated pink noise and the mic around the head method (spatial averaging?) and adjusted the 9 band PEQ built into the Alpine accordingly.
> 
> Blew my mind when I played music and listened to the difference. I had adjusted the eq before with and old phonic PAA2 but the details I was able to correct with REW made a night and day difference. *The single most positive improvement to the sound in the this car* in the last 5 months.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Here's the next round of mods...

Look how tiny that VXi is compared to the Slash. Itty bitty! Also got some Stereo Integrity M25 tweets going in Valeri pods.


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## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I've also been toying with the idea of making kick panels down low and removing the rear 5.25s to put them in the kicks...which would need the 2 extra channels. I really want to play with the RTA though and figure out if I have any cabin issues. Having the extra channels gave me options which was the intent the whole time...
> 
> EDIT: My mid bass's are only rated at 60W RMS and 120W peak. My amp puts out 75W RMS and *200W* bridged. Only if a clear power problem existed do I think I would bridge them. The good news it will be very easy to do after everything is installed if I need to do so.





Pb82 Ronin said:


> A-pillar pods pointed right at my nugget. SI M25s. 4" midrange in the original tweeter location and 6.5 in the factory lower door location. No kick panels exist. Thought about adding them and putting in the speakers that used to be in the rear.


The RMS ratings for a speaker are there to provide a guideline. The actual amount of power that a speaker can handle is all about the application. The fact is that when you remove low frequencies with a high pass filter, you can drive a lot more power into a speaker than if it is trying to reproduce full range sound. I had 200 watts running to my Dayton RS180s crossed over at 63hz hp, and let me tell you something, they sounded a lot better with the 200 watts than they did with 50 watts. In that system I actually had more power on my mibasses combined than I did with my sub - and it sounded fantastic. Also - the JL makes 200 watts bridged, not 100. 

I also think it is ill-advised to add MORE speakers in front of you. 5.25s in kicks is a generally bad idea from a sound quality perspective if they will be in addition to a full 3 way set up in the doors and pillars. Nevermind that trying to tune that will be impossible. Why would you want another source of full range sound in the kicks? What would that accomplish?

I applaud your effort, and love to see someone diving in head first, but you've got to put more time into the theory and planning than just throwing money and equipment at the car if you want good results. 

That being said, the equipment you have is all top notch! You should be able to get very good results with it. As I mentioned, my suggestion is to use the vxi to run a 3 way front with a pair of channels bridged to each midbass. The rear speakers, especially in a car like a corvette, aren't worth the effort and tuning complexity they will present. If you get that dialed in and aren't happy, well then you can think about adding rears. But I can almost guarantee you you won't ever want to bother with them.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

DaveRulz said:


> The RMS ratings for a speaker are there to provide a guideline. The actual amount of power that a speaker can handle is all about the application. The fact is that when you remove low frequencies with a high pass filter, you can drive a lot more power into a speaker than if it is trying to reproduce full range sound. I had 200 watts running to my Dayton RS180s crossed over at 63hz hp, and let me tell you something, they sounded a lot better with the 200 watts than they did with 50 watts. In that system I actually had more power on my mibasses combined than I did with my sub - and it sounded fantastic. Also - the JL makes 200 watts bridged, not 100.
> 
> I also think it is ill-advised to add MORE speakers in front of you. 5.25s in kicks is a generally bad idea from a sound quality perspective if they will be in addition to a full 3 way set up in the doors and pillars. Nevermind that trying to tune that will be impossible. Why would you want another source of full range sound in the kicks? What would that accomplish?
> 
> ...


I'll give it a try. Channels 1-4 small guys, 5/6 bridged to left woofer, 7/8 bridged to right woofer.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I've also been toying with the idea of making kick panels down low and removing the rear 5.25s to put them in the kicks...which would need the 2 extra channels. I really want to play with the RTA though and figure out if I have any cabin issues. Having the extra channels gave me options which was the intent the whole time...
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: My mid bass's are only rated at 60W RMS and 120W peak. My amp puts out 75W RMS and 100W bridged. Only if a clear power problem existed do I think I would bridge them. The good news it will be very easy to do after everything is installed if I need to do so.


DaveRulez said it^^. I'm running 230 watts RMS each on 75 watt RMS mids, 4x75 amp bridged. They sound much better with the extra power. As long as you keep it clean, you don't need to worry about the power.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Valeri's pods sowed last night. They're beautiful! And...heavy! I got to figure out how to mount these in a secure fashion. Pics coming soon.


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## flgfish (Jan 17, 2019)

Sweet car, cool build.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Two days worth of install...again. Big update coming...pics and all. One thing I'm not happy about, my new VXi amp apparently needs to be "updated." Why the hell does an amp need an update? I wanted this install to be fire and forget...not so much. Playing pink noise, I know my tweets and mids are working...haven't heard from the woofs or the subs yet. Mainly because my software (JL TuN) is saying I need to update the amp. I need to set the network settings on the amp, but I keep getting an error message. Super stoked that Monday is a holiday and I likely can't get tech support. My blue tooth connection wont connect to the amp. I believe this is why my amp wont play through the woofs. Probably going to be a disappointing day tomorrow.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Two days worth of install...again. Big update coming...pics and all. One thing I'm not happy about, my new VXi amp apparently needs to be "updated." Why the hell does an amp need an update? I wanted this install to be fire and forget...not so much. Playing pink noise, I know my tweets and mids are working...haven't heard from the woofs or the subs yet. Mainly because my software (JL TuN) is saying I need to update the amp. I need to set the network settings on the amp, but I keep getting an error message. Super stoked that Monday is a holiday and I likely can't get tech support. My blue tooth connection wont connect to the amp. I believe this is why my amp wont play through the woofs. Probably going to be a disappointing day tomorrow.




Needs to update the dsp software in the amp 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Crappy part is that JL does not include the HOW in the instructions. They just tell you that it needs to happen, but don't tell you how to do it.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Crappy part is that JL does not include the HOW in the instructions. They just tell you that it needs to happen, but don't tell you how to do it.




Wow their website doesn't say anything either how useless 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

So I managed to update the amp. Took plugging a laptop directly into the amp via a USB cable. So I got about an hour of seat time with the setup and tuning. Initial response. I ABSOLUTELY HATE THIS ****! They have made it so complicated that you can't use the damn thing. Not to mention, every time you turn the amp off, all setting revert back to unprogrammed. So I spent an hour tuning with an RTA and mic, then saved it...all looked well. Turned the car on again with out laptops and **** connected, only to have everything be unprogrammed again. Absolutely frustrated beyond belief. Definitely wondering why the hell I paid $1500 for this damn thing.


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## tranv9565 (Jun 6, 2017)

You have to send the tune to the device. It'll store it. There are some great YouTube videos. 

When I first used the unit, it was difficult to set but it actually became very intuitive.



Pb82 Ronin said:


> So I managed to update the amp. Took plugging a laptop directly into the amp via a USB cable. So I got about an hour of seat time with the setup and tuning. Initial response. I ABSOLUTELY HATE THIS ****! They have made it so complicated that you can't use the damn thing. Not to mention, every time you turn the amp off, all setting revert back to unprogrammed. So I spent an hour tuning with an RTA and mic, then saved it...all looked well. Turned the car on again with out laptops and **** connected, only to have everything be unprogrammed again. Absolutely frustrated beyond belief. Definitely wondering why the hell I paid $1500 for this damn thing.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

tranv9565 said:


> You have to send the tune to the device. It'll store it. There are some great YouTube videos.
> 
> When I first used the unit, it was difficult to set but it actually became very intuitive.


I did man...the amp didn't save a damn thing. I even have all the attachments. Never mind the fact I couldn't get the Bluetooth to connect to my tablet either. JL is 0 for like 5 tonight. I'm just pissed and want to sleep it off. I'll try again later...but they can kiss my ass tonight.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> So I managed to update the amp. Took plugging a laptop directly into the amp via a USB cable. So I got about an hour of seat time with the setup and tuning. Initial response. I ABSOLUTELY HATE THIS ****! They have made it so complicated that you can't use the damn thing. Not to mention, every time you turn the amp off, all setting revert back to unprogrammed. So I spent an hour tuning with an RTA and mic, then saved it...all looked well. Turned the car on again with out laptops and **** connected, only to have everything be unprogrammed again. Absolutely frustrated beyond belief. Definitely wondering why the hell I paid $1500 for this damn thing.




How else would you have updated it?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> How else would you have updated it?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was hoping the fancy Bluetooth stuff would allow an update. Moot point though as I could not get anything to connect to the Bluetooth either. Which meant I had to drag another laptop out there just to get anything done. I sent a distress email to JL hoping they can help me out of this, but currently I definitely feel like I wasted a lot of money when I could've just RTA's my previous setup.


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

I know some of these things can get frustrating. I spent about 2 hours with mic and equipment setting my tune and thought I saved it and later went for a drive and facepalm, realized I wasted all that time as it didn't save. You will figure it out.
Using any dsp is frustrating at first but then you get the hang of them. They have different displays but once you get the general idea your golden.
Drink some coffee and enjoy the process (no pun intended). You will be able to help someone out in the future. 
Funny, after this incident you changed your avitar to a preditor that looks angry. LOL!!!!


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Yeah, I've always loved Predator. Total personification of the mentality and capability I wish I could have in our society. But...Predators are not very civil. LOL.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

And, how the hell do you "upload" the tune in the amp?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

So, I finally got help...this is how you push each tune to the amp. And you have to do it for every tune for you to be able to use the DRC-205 to rotate between tunes on the fly. I still need to play with that thing. It looks cool though. Pics coming...


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

New software is frustrating at times. you'll get it i'm sure.
I'm looking forward to hearing this thing pretty soon. i hope


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> So, I finally got help...this is how you push each tune to the amp. And you have to do it for every tune for you to be able to use the DRC-205 to rotate between tunes on the fly. I still need to play with that thing. It looks cool though. Pics coming...




Glad you got it figured out your gonna be so happy with an active system 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

EDIT: Post deleted because it was not correct information.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Oh yeah...AND my tablet is "too old" to connect to their Bluetooth dongle. So I have to use two laptops to get anywhere. Super excited. :stunned::sad::icon_bs::huh2:


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Oh yeah...AND my tablet is "too old" to connect to their Bluetooth dongle. So I have to use two laptops to get anywhere. Super excited. :stunned::sad::icon_bs::huh2:




Man that sounds terribly complicated. 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Damn...turns out I'm wrong again. You can control them independently. I don't have to undo all my wiring. That's good news. I still submit...I would not be experiencing this much headache with good instructions. Apparently, JL actually teaches a class on how to use this thing. Open mouth...insert foot...apply pressure.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Damn...turns out I'm wrong again. You can control them independently. I don't have to undo all my wiring. That's good news. I still submit...I would not be experiencing this much headache with good instructions. Apparently, JL actually teaches a class on how to use this thing. Open mouth...insert foot...apply pressure.




I was gonna say lol that's the whole point of a dsp is individual control. I'm glad your figuring it out. What cross over points are you using?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

So I went with: (All on 1/24 L-R)
Tweeters - 2500 Hz - 20 KHz
Midrange - 250 Hz - 7,000 Hz
Woofers - 50 Hz - 4000 Hz.

Going to play with the RTA a bit later. What do you think of my X-overs?


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> So I went with:
> 
> Tweeters - 2500 Hz - 20 KHz
> 
> ...




They should not be over lapping like that. Their natural roll off will cover above and below the crossover. What's the FS of your tweeter?
Should be closer to 
Tweet 3000-20,000
Mid 250-3000
Woofers 60/70-250
50 is low on the woofers real low. I was running at 80 and went down to 70 and it helped with midbass a lot but I won't go any lower. 


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

Yeah, why such overlaps on the xovers?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Truthunter said:


> Yeah, why such overlaps on the xovers?


Because I'm new to this whole tuning thing and frankly, I don't quite know WTF I'm doing yet. I'm just learning as I go. I would love some assistance on how to set this stuff up. I did all my measurements for time alignment too, but my stage appears way on the left. So I'm going to pop in Audiofrogs tuning CD and see if I can dial this thing in better,


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Because I'm new to this whole tuning thing and frankly, I don't quite know WTF I'm doing yet. I'm just learning as I go. I would love some assistance on how to set this stuff up. I did all my measurements for time alignment too, but my stage appears way on the left. So I'm going to pop in Audiofrogs tuning CD and see if I can dial this thing in better,




Probably because your volume on the left is too high. There a into guide to tuning on here as well as YouTube video skizer made its on helix software but the concept is the same 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Appreciate any help guys. Any links, etc.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Appreciate any help guys. Any links, etc.




I sent you a Pm 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Got it bro...thanks.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Got it bro...thanks.




https://www.diymobileaudio.com/foru...timers-guide-measuring-your-system.html?amp=1

Just for reference my left tweeter is down 5db and mid 3db from the right.


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

Audiofrog has a good beginners guide: https://testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/A-Straightforward-Stereo-Tuning-Process-and-Some-Notes-About-Why-it-Works.pdf


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Truthunter said:


> Audiofrog has a good beginners guide: https://testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-c...Process-and-Some-Notes-About-Why-it-Works.pdf




You know what's up! I messaged him that same link!


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

You know what's funny...I've read that guide about 10 times now. I read it before it was linked here. My current issue...I need to figure out the time alignment in the car. JL lets you adjust by the 10th of an inch...is it really that critical? I kept my measurements to the nearest whole or half inch. Maybe that was not smart?

I suppose I should give a teaser. All I hear is high's and bass. Mid bass and "presence" is just absent. I haven't adjusted crossovers yet as I'm waiting to hear what most folks use as a baseline. It's a bit late to do anything tonight as me and the wife want to watch a movie...but tomorrow, I'll get on the measurements PRECISELY and put the RTA back in the car.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> You know what's funny...I've read that guide about 10 times now. I read it before it was linked here. My current issue...I need to figure out the time alignment in the car. JL lets you adjust by the 10th of an inch...is it really that critical? I kept my measurements to the nearest whole or half inch. Maybe that was not smart?
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose I should give a teaser. All I hear is high's and bass. Mid bass and "presence" is just absent. I haven't adjusted crossovers yet as I'm waiting to hear what most folks use as a baseline. It's a bit late to do anything tonight as me and the wife want to watch a movie...but tomorrow, I'll get on the measurements PRECISELY and put the RTA back in the car.




"Measure it and forget it" that's what Andy says get as close as you possibly can and forget it. Setup up your mic measure with a tape and move on. 



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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> They should not be over lapping like that. Their natural roll off will cover above and below the crossover. What's the FS of your tweeter?
> Should be closer to
> Tweet 3000-20,000
> Mid 250-3000
> ...


My tweet has a Freq range of 1500 - 30K...I can't find what the FS is. The literature on my woofers say they can play to 30 Hz. My thoughts were to let the speakers play in the entire range that they are capable of playing in. Is that the wrong mindset?


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

This one is my favorite. I got my 2 cars to sound very good before I ever touched the EQ by using this guide.
Good Luck.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33740


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## maybebigfootisblurr (Nov 4, 2011)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> My tweet has a Freq range of 1500 - 30K...*I can't find what the FS is.* The literature on my woofers say they can play to 30 Hz. My thoughts were to let the speakers play in the entire range that they are capable of playing in. Is that the wrong mindset?


SI website:
"DESCRIPTION
... The M25 is a 91 dB sensitive 4 Ohm tweeter with an *Fs of 1300 Hz and capable of playing from 1,600 Hz to 30,000 Hz.*"


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

What does that mean for me? Is FS where I should set my crossover point?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> My tweet has a Freq range of 1500 - 30K...I can't find what the FS is. The literature on my woofers say they can play to 30 Hz. My thoughts were to let the speakers play in the entire range that they are capable of playing in. Is that the wrong mindset?


At this point a maybe professional help is best?
They do it all the time and know what to do.


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## maybebigfootisblurr (Nov 4, 2011)

Holmz said:


> At this point a maybe professional help is best?
> They do it all the time and know what to do.


That's what she said.


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## maybebigfootisblurr (Nov 4, 2011)

Holmz said:


> At this point a maybe professional help is best?
> They do it all the time and know what to do.


I agree. Most of the help you'll get in this instance will be via guide links, or in reference to those guides. If the resources here aren't enough to get you going, then a pro is probably a wise choice. If you can get a basic tune (correctly), then you will have at least established a baseline. Then you can post for help with RTA screenshots.


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## DaveRulz (Jun 22, 2006)

Professional help is a cop-out. This site is Do It Yourself Mobile Audio - lets help the guy.

The goal is to divide the audible frequency spectrum up so that each pair of speakers can reproduce a portion. You don't want two sets of drivers competing to play the same chunk of the spectrum, so don't overlap your crossover points. Each speaker also needs to play within a safe passband where the chances of physical damage due to over-excursion are mitigated. The crossovers are used to accomplish these goals. 

High Frequency:
Generally a good rule of thumb for high pass crossover point is no lower than 2 x FS so if your tweeters have an FS of 1300 you would not want to cross them over below 2600 to start. On top of that, you also don't have any reason to cross them so low since you have midrange speakers that will reproduce sounds within that range much better. Generally in a 3 way set up you want to push the tweeters crossover point out somewhere between 3 and 5 k so that it does not interfere with the majority of the vocal range (this is why you went 3 way after all)

Midrange:
These speakers play the majority of the vocal range. You want the high pass and low pass crossover points to fall somewhere at the boundaries or just outside of the majority of the vocal range. Generally high pass is somewhere between 200 and 300 hz and low pass is somewhere between 3 and 5k - depending on the capabilities of your speakers. 

Midbass:
Pick up the low pass for your midbasses at whatever point you have set for your high pass on the midrange. Your midbasses should not be playing down to 50hz. The punch you are after is not found that low in the spectrum and crossing that low will just introduce them to more stress than they can handle. Run your midbasses down to somewhere between 60 and 80 hz - I tend to favor closer to 80 in order to allow greater output.

Subs:
Run em from the high pass on the midbass down. If you are running ported you might want to put on a subsonic to protect the sub, if sealed there's really no reason to.
Edit: I see Andy's advice is to run them at 1/2 an octave lower than midbass - he knows way more than me! Follow his advice.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Guys, I do have to say thanks to everyone that has offered up guidance thus far. I made the recommended crossover changes and it did make a substantial difference. I was able to actually put some stank in it and play some music at listening level for the first time. I can say for a fact that it did sound better than my settings for sure. I know I'm headed in the right direction at least. 

Leads me to two more questions though. What should I have the sub at? It's currently 20 Hz - 80 Hz. 

And how do you get the midbass (woofers) to be more "present?" It doesn't even sound like they're playing (but they are). I'm going to bridge a 2nd channel to them for sure, but that whole midbass range sounds weak. Vocals and highs are crisp and clear (but bright, I know I need some RTA time). Can anyone recommend good starting curve for the RTA?


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

Id just low pass the sub at 80 and gove it a try


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Guys, I do have to say thanks to everyone that has offered up guidance thus far. I made the recommended crossover changes and it did make a substantial difference. I was able to actually put some stank in it and play some music at listening level for the first time. I can say for a fact that it did sound better than my settings for sure. I know I'm headed in the right direction at least.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have the low pass on my subs set 60hz which was a suggestion of 1/3rd below the midbass at 80hz. That was from Andy's guide. No high pass is set on the subs. As far as presence. How are they installed? What's the treatment in your doors? What's your crossovers on them? Are you using 24lr on everything?


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Can anyone recommend good starting curve for the RTA?


Audiofrog curve.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> I have the low pass on my subs set 60hz which was a suggestion of 1/3rd below the midbass at 80hz. That was from Andy's guide. No high pass is set on the subs. As far as presence. How are they installed? What's the treatment in your doors? What's your crossovers on them? Are you using 24lr on everything?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll try 60 Hz too. I have them on 80 now. Treatment on doors is CLD tiles, butyl rope on door brace top and bottom, kollossus, etc. I had some VB2 to try, but I didn't want to remove all the butyl stuff just to apply it. We'll see how the VB4 does on the flat parts. Yes, 24 L-R on all. During my tuning tonight I swapped the polarity of driver woofer and then they "showed up." One thing I MUST do...is get rid of that stupid center speaker. I think that thing is ruining my soundstage. Using the Audiofrog tuning CD, the image was muddied across the dash where as in my truck, each position was clearly discernable.

But I can say, I smiled for the first time tonight listening to some tunes. I really like the amount of control you have with this amp/dsp. I'm a little bummed that I need a new tablet to use with the BTC, but someday, that will be fixed too. I think the more you play with it, the more you like it. 

Side note...I don't think my RTA/mic setup is working right. When operating, there was no "curve." It was basically flat across the board. I could make extreme EQ changes, and the curve barely moved. But is did "move" however miniscule. So tonight I basically used the method referenced earlier to "get me close." I really liked that method when using JL's software. Was quick and easy.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Side note...I don't think my RTA/mic setup is working right. When operating, there was no "curve." It was basically flat across the board. I could make extreme EQ changes, and the curve barely moved. But is did "move" however miniscule.


Maybe the scale was off.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

ckirocz28 said:


> Maybe the scale was off.


Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Or the mic calibration file. Not sure.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I'll try 60 Hz too. I have them on 80 now. Treatment on doors is CLD tiles, butyl rope on door brace top and bottom, kollossus, etc. I had some VB2 to try, but I didn't want to remove all the butyl stuff just to apply it. We'll see how the VB4 does on the flat parts. Yes, 24 L-R on all. During my tuning tonight I swapped the polarity of driver woofer and then they "showed up." One thing I MUST do...is get rid of that stupid center speaker. I think that thing is ruining my soundstage. Using the Audiofrog tuning CD, the image was muddied across the dash where as in my truck, each position was clearly discernable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If you don't have the right dsp a center speaker ruins it. How far are your woofers from the door panel you use something like this ccf to direct the sound into the car rather than into the door panel










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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> If you don't have the right dsp a center speaker ruins it. How far are your woofers from the door panel you use something like this ccf to direct the sound into the car rather than into the door panel


Yeah I thought about using Fast rings or something similar. But I want to know that I "need" them first.


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

I would agree to drop the center channel.

Also, Have you set the time delays yet? Using distance measurements?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Truthunter said:


> I would agree to drop the center channel.
> 
> Also, Have you set the time delays yet? Using distance measurements?


Yep, sure did. I did that first.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

I would personally set crossovers as recommended above, then follow hanatsu’s guide to how to setup a system on here with room eq wizard, it’s dead easy and it seems like you are of a mind set of spend money to fix installation issues rather than optimise what you have then improve what’s not upto spec, I get you’ve paid for your rta software, but his guide for rew is excellent and easy to follow!

Glaring obvious... you say the midbass seems weak, almost not there... what does the rta say if you just rta the midbass alone, hanatsus guide is excellent and explains how to work out if phases are correct... channels should sum and levels increase when both play together...

It’s basic stuff you seem to be struggling with... less spending to overcome free to sort issues is always good!

If you’ve not level matched all the individual speakers and made sure it’s all in phase your kinda wasting your tune time for starters

Paying someone costs everytime you want it doing when you change something... learn about it and it’s free... giving more stuff to spend on fun stuff!


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

If the centre channel is run off a headunit bin it, it makes your time alignment pointless as you can’t time align it? You’ve never mentioned a centre channel and not being able to tune it will hinder sound and adversely effect other speakers and your rta results 

As for adjusting eq and it does nothing it may be a reflected sound which you won’t be able to kill or adjust, it’s just how it is... read hanatsus guide, use rew and follow step by step


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Pics as promised...these were taken as I replaced HMF with MLV. And switched from 3 way passive to 3 way active.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

More...In the pics above, you can see marks and lines in the MLV. That was how I marked the MLV for trimming and cutting to fit. The last two pics were taken for another member asking about the brackets I fabbed to mount the midranges. I must admit, the "cubbies" as they're known in the vette world I think let a lot of undesirable sound in. And there's no real way to deaden them. Putting MLV in the bottom would be kind of moot as the side of the boxes are sitting just behind the rear wheels. The cubby covers are also pre-fabbed, so there is no way to really stick anything to them other than taking the trim off and attaching tile or dynamat to the outside...which would be very difficult.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

I did start losing motivation at this point to snap more pics as I was finishing up...but here's what I took. Some of my soldering and capacitor installs..


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

I'll take more of the finished product and some tuning screenshots this weekend. (EDIT: and don't mind the taped speaker wire ends in the last pic, that was just to ensure all speakers worked before I finish soldered all the connections.)


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

UPDATE: Physical stuff is 100% complete. Woofers are bridged on channels E/F, and G/H. Center speaker is removed. Sound stage sounds much more detailed from left to right. Now, if I could only get my darn RTA working correctly. I've been talking with Andy from Audiofrog to try and get my mic and RTA talking correctly...on a Sunday no less. Way to go Andy, that's awesome customer service!


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

After some more listening time, I've set my crossovers to the following:

Tweets - 6,000 - 20,000 
Mids - 1,260 - 6,000
Woofs - 80 - 2,500
Subs - 20 - 80

So far, these crossover point have "sounded" the best to my ears.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> After some more listening time, I've set my crossovers to the following:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Why do you still have over lap? Your phasing will be all out of wack if you keep it that way 


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

Midbass are crossed to high in my opinion. And no overlap


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

I can't help it man. I just can't get mid level anything to be present without allowing the 6.5s to sing a bit more. I tried getting on the RTA and dialing in the Audiofrog curve and have a NASTY dip at 400 Hz that just wont go away no matter what I do. It's frustrating to know that I spent as much as I did on an active system only to be disappointed over and over. I'm giving it teething pains as I learn this whole process. But man, I'm telling you, my simple one amp passive setup in my truck with NO DSP sounds 10X better than my active with a DSP.

What do you recommend as good X-over points? What are yours at?


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I can't help it man. I just can't get mid level anything to be present without allowing the 6.5s to sing a bit more. I tried getting on the RTA and dialing in the Audiofrog curve and have a NASTY dip at 400 Hz that just wont go away no matter what I do. It's frustrating to know that I spent as much as I did on an active system only to be disappointed over and over. I'm giving it teething pains as I learn this whole process. But man, I'm telling you, my simple one amp passive setup in my truck with NO DSP sounds 10X better than my active with a DSP.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you recommend as good X-over points? What are yours at?


Try midbass from 80-400, midrabge 400-4500, tweeters 4500 and up. Thats just what id start with

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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I can't help it man. I just can't get mid level anything to be present without allowing the 6.5s to sing a bit more. I tried getting on the RTA and dialing in the Audiofrog curve and have a NASTY dip at 400 Hz that just wont go away no matter what I do. It's frustrating to know that I spent as much as I did on an active system only to be disappointed over and over. I'm giving it teething pains as I learn this whole process. But man, I'm telling you, my simple one amp passive setup in my truck with NO DSP sounds 10X better than my active with a DSP.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you recommend as good X-over points? What are yours at?




Depends on the specs of your speakers on where to start. The nasty dip is probably cancelation of the center console. It happens in almost all installs. 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

ToNasty said:


> Try midbass from 80-400, midrabge 400-4500, tweeters 4500 and up. Thats just what id start with


I'll give it a try and see how that works out. I have noticed that when my tweets play below around 5500, they really overpower the sound stage. 

I will say that rap sounds pretty good right now, but that's because it's all high and lows without much in the mid-range. But when I play my metal...it just lacks.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

I posted them in another thread...what specs should I be looking for or paying attention to?


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I posted them in another thread...what specs should I be looking for or paying attention to?




Turn the volume down on the tweets 5db to start. And the fs is a good place to start. 


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I found that when the mids are a capable speaker and are not playing with enough authority it has been the meshing with the sub that has been the issue. That's assuming that the mounting locations are stout, deadened, and playing directly in to the cabin and not the door card.


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Ronin- Whereabouts are you located?


Just wondering if I (or someone I know) may be in your area that could help get you on the right track with tuning so you can start enjoying the hard work.






-Steve


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

I'm in the Raleigh NC area.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> Turn the volume down on the tweets 5db to start. And the fs is a good place to start.


Ironically...that's exactly where I left them last night. -5 db. Had a more even sound with the mid.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Ironically...that's exactly where I left them last night. -5 db. Had a more even sound with the mid.




And that's what your trying to fix? Turn your mid range down down 5db too. Don't worry about making it loud yet. Just try to make it sound even. Is there a reason why you went three way? 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> And that's what your trying to fix? Turn your mid range down down 5db too. Don't worry about making it loud yet. Just try to make it sound even. *Is there a reason why you went three way?
> *


Honestly, because of this forum. I only dabbled into audio before...for YEARS before. Used to...I trusted the local audio shop and their opinion. Their recommendation is what I usually went with and it worked out for the best for the most part. I was that guy. Then I started reading. I can't help it, I'm an analyst. I like to be an expert on any interest I take a liking or interest to.

Then, I got "smart" on it. I saw what the pro's were doing, and the "experts" in the field. The active 3 way is the resounding solution to almost any audio deficiencies us amateurs traditionally suffer from. It was the pinnacle. The holy grail. I no longer wanted to be that guy that doesn't follow the prosperous path to achieving true audio bliss. So I did it, and proceeded down this path. I haven't totally given up yet and I'm an MMA fighter as well. So I don't quit. And so far this has been a short fight. But man, the path to go this route just seems far more complicated than trusting the engineers at say Focal, that have paid the price of this tuition and know far more about it than I ever will. They've designed numerous drop in passive systems that sound phenomenal...on purpose. I think just so idiots like me don't have to chase their tales like I am. 

I like the adjustability of the DSP...but I can throw power at this thing all day, and not really ever achieve a happy sound. Let's just say my entry into this "next level" has been not the greatest endeavor of my life.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Honestly, because of this forum. I only dabbled into audio before...for YEARS before. Used to...I trusted the local audio shop and their opinion. Their recommendation is what I usually went with and it worked out for the best for the most part. I was that guy. Then I started reading. I can't help it, I'm an analyst. I like to be an expert on any interest I take a liking or interest to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Understandable that it's a lot to over come. But a decently tuned and set up 2 way will **** on a passive 3 way or a bad tuned 3 way. I was almost drinking the kool aid that 3 way will always be better than a 2 way but I don't think I'm gonna fall for it. Can it sound better yes I think it can but there is a metric **** load more things to over come. Side note. Just try this for lack of conversation. Set your tweets up for 3000 and up 24db
Mids 3000-70hz 24db and turn the subs 60hz 24db 
See how that sounds and let me know what you think. 


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## ToNasty (Jan 23, 2013)

Redliner99 said:


> Pb82 Ronin said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, because of this forum. I only dabbled into audio before...for YEARS before. Used to...I trusted the local audio shop and their opinion. Their recommendation is what I usually went with and it worked out for the best for the most part. I was that guy. Then I started reading. I can't help it, I'm an analyst. I like to be an expert on any interest I take a liking or interest to.
> ...


Exactly what im doing. Ive been out of audio for years. Now im getting back into it. Learning all over again. Ive chosen a simple 2 way active setup to play around with ill go to 3 way later on


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

I think what you need to remember is that when you are going active, if you're just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks, you're wasting your time. You have the equipment installed, and now it is time to get to the tune. You need to follow a prescriptive method to get things done, and not just rely on random advice (some great, some not so much) from anonymous strangers on an internet forum. 

Choose one of the tuning guides (Audiofrog, Hanatsu, Justin Zazzy) previously linked to in this thread and stick to it. Even without EQ, it should be a pretty straight forward process to set crossovers, time alignment, and relative speaker levels with a measurement mic and REW. You'd be surprised at how good a car can sound with just that much done. 

One other item that might help, is that when you are having an issue list exactly what piece(s) of equipment you are having an issue with in the post (brand, model, etc). Some of us are literally susbscribed to thousands of threads. Having all of the relevant information in one post makes it easier for anyone trying to help and doesn't require them to back through a multi-page thread to dig up the info. 

Lastly, the gear you have selected has the potential to sound really good. Don't get frustrated and don't give up. Pick one of those tuning guides, and follow it from start to finish. If you run in to trouble along the way, post up. Especially if you can post screen shots of what you're measuring.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Honestly, because of this forum. I only dabbled into audio before...for YEARS before. Used to...I trusted the local audio shop and their opinion. Their recommendation is what I usually went with and it worked out for the best for the most part. I was that guy. Then I started reading. I can't help it, I'm an analyst. I like to be an expert on any interest I take a liking or interest to.
> 
> Then, I got "smart" on it. I saw what the pro's were doing, and the "experts" in the field. The active 3 way is the resounding solution to almost any audio deficiencies us amateurs traditionally suffer from. It was the pinnacle. The holy grail. I no longer wanted to be that guy that doesn't follow the prosperous path to achieving true audio bliss. So I did it, and proceeded down this path. I haven't totally given up yet and I'm an MMA fighter as well. So I don't quit. And so far this has been a short fight. But man, the path to go this route just seems far more complicated than trusting the engineers at say Focal, that have paid the price of this tuition and know far more about it than I ever will. They've designed numerous drop in passive systems that sound phenomenal...on purpose. I think just so idiots like me don't have to chase their tales like I am.
> 
> I like the adjustability of the DSP...but I can throw power at this thing all day, and not really ever achieve a happy sound. Let's just say my entry into this "next level" has been not the greatest endeavor of my life.


The advantage of a passive 2-way is that the cross over is easier to make than a 3-way cross over.

The advantage of a 3-way is that the speakers can play in narrower bands than a 2-way, and stay of out distortion regions/etc.

The advantage of a DSP is that the channel bands can be tailored, the Time aligned, and the EQ set.

The wide bands of your three way system, do not appear to take advantage of the three speakers.


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## Iamsecond (Jan 3, 2017)

In in Asheville and I am in Raleigh 5 times a year finishing up my doctorate degree. I would be happy to meet up with you when I get there. Also there is a meet in Greensboro in a month or so. 
I have the same tweets crossed over at 4000. Dr side is down 5.5db and passenger side is down 2.5 I believe. I understand your issues and have dealt with them myself but I found a very simple way to get 90% to the end without ever opening up a computer. 

Get your ta with tape measure. I use the tip of the mic I use for tuning to each speaker. Use tracerite and change to ms. Easy peasy. 
Now, on my phone I have audio tools app spl and use a Dayton imm6 to level match left tweet to right tweet, then left mid to right mid, then left midbass to right midbass. Also, I use the phase meter on the app to test each speaker to make sure they are all playing the same. 
Now, here’s the frustrating part, which I believe is causing some issue. Setting the right balance between tweets, mids and midbass. I did mine by ear and preference and then pulled up the rta and found I was using a house curve like whitledge in jazzis tuning guide. Point is, now I am going to go back and adjust using rew and the eq. I sold my sub today and I asked the guy to get in and see what he thought of the system and staging and his looked at me and said this sounds amazing. Btw, I have hearing loss in my left ear and it sounds like the stage is off to the right but I asked him to point to the music and he closed his eyes and pointed at the middle of the windshield. I got this by tape measure and spl meter only. 
Try this with some music you know well. Your gains are also important but you can set the spl of the speakers through the dsp. My setting wound up being 5.5 down left tweet, 2.7 down right tweet, left and right mid were at 0 and left and right mid are -6. 
You have the equipment just take a simple approach. Try this and see what happens. My midbass didn’t come alive until I got all of this right. Then everything sounded great


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

More pics of the final product...(last pic is a teaser of the next endeavor)


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## Sparkygreen (Jul 29, 2018)

Looks good!


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Iamsecond said:


> In in Asheville and I am in Raleigh 5 times a year finishing up my doctorate degree. I would be happy to meet up with you when I get there. Also there is a meet in Greensboro in a month or so.
> I have the same tweets crossed over at 4000. Dr side is down 5.5db and passenger side is down 2.5 I believe. I understand your issues and have dealt with them myself but I found a very simple way to get 90% to the end without ever opening up a computer.
> 
> Get your ta with tape measure. I use the tip of the mic I use for tuning to each speaker. Use tracerite and change to ms. Easy peasy.
> ...


Hell yeah man. I'd enjoy meeting another enthusiast...and I'm already going to the meet in May...but if the weather sucks, i'll have to bring my truck. Let me know the next time you're in the Raleigh area and I'll meet with you if I can.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Here's where my crossovers ended up sounding decent:
Tweets: 5500 - 20K
Mids: 750-5500
Woofs: 80-750 +10.0 db
Subs: 20-80 
All on 24 L/R.

I re-did the TA measurements as well...I was off a few tenths here and there, but all is correct now. If I could ever get my stinking RTA to work without having to get in touch with the President of audiofrog that would help. 

Side note: when I turned just the woofers on I could hear crazy rattles in my door panels and dash. That was irritating to know that I have to pull my door cards off and just go stupid with sticking things down.


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> ...Side note: when I turned just the woofers on I could hear crazy rattles in my door panels and dash. That was irritating to know that I have to pull my door cards off and just go stupid with sticking things down.


Try this with just your Subwoofer playing as well. Use 10 second test tones at 5Hz intervals from 15Hz to 80Hz to check for this. Then from 70Hz to ~500Hz for your mid-bass drivers. Any rattles or buzzes etc will definitely kill your imaging & staging.

Use Tesa Tape over any panel clips or the openings for them, and/or rubber foam tape/weather-stripping where any plastic panels meet other plastic or metal surfaces. This works well on the plastic reinforcement ribs or gussetts that are on the backside of many interior panels which can rub & squeak or rattle on sheet metal. Sometimes small dabs of silicone sealant or butyl tape work well for this, too.

And Boosting your mid-bass drivers +10db seems excessive. Try and get that Test Mic & REW up and running, then as *rton20s* suggested, use Andy's or one of the other tuning guides, and use it systematically...from start to finish! I personally think that Andy's guide is one of the most condensed, concise, and easiest to follow, especially for those new to tuning with a DSP.

FYI, DO NOT use music to do any of your initial tuning. I know that it's no fun, and can actually be annoying, but use the suggested Pink Noise, band-limited PN, Sweeps, Sine Waves, and band-limited PN "click" tracks to level-match and EQ both the L&R drivers to the Harmon/JBL or Whitledge/Zazzi Target Curves. IMO, any test tracks that are used should all be Lossless files and not played via Lossy BT streaming.

Once you have the T/A and L/R EQ matched to your chosen Target Curve, only then try playing your music and see where that gets you. Refer back to _rton20s_ post.


If you don't mind, can you post some of your favorite Metal tracks that you like to listen to? I want to play them on my reference system to see how it reproduces them...to see how balanced they are, or check for any anomalies, etc.

Also, Metal recordings will rarely exhibit much if any type of deeply layered depth cues, so don't expect those. But Andy's guide and illustration of the _Distance To Stage_ depending on speaker placement is pretty much spot on. 

Good luck.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Hell yeah man. I'd enjoy meeting another enthusiast...and I'm already going to the meet in May...but if the weather sucks, i'll have to bring my truck. Let me know the next time you're in the Raleigh area and I'll meet with you if I can.




I’m hoping to see both of you at the meet - these are the kinds of discussions you guys can have with a large number of good guys. 

Mic Wallace would be an excellent fella to get together with - he is in Raleigh, and he is a great teacher. Let me know if you want to try to reach out to him or if the info here is getting you closer to where you want to be. 



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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

bertholomey said:


> I’m hoping to see both of you at the meet - these are the kinds of discussions you guys can have with a large number of good guys.
> 
> Mic Wallace would be an excellent fella to get together with - he is in Raleigh, and he is a great teacher. Let me know if you want to try to reach out to him or if the info here is getting you closer to where you want to be.


Ummm...yes please. I could use a little classroom time. 

For instance, I took the car out for a drive on the previous settings and still wasn't happy. So I brought her home and started playing around. I noticed that everyone (well a lot of folks anyway) recommended L/R crossovers. That's what I had always chosen because it seemed to be the norm. Well me being tired of the norm, I turned off ALL speakers except the 6.5's. I went through EVERY available X-over in TuN from 0/12/18/24/36/48 in LR to 6 db/12/18/24/36 BW. What sounded best even at normal freq ranges? 6 db. Then I played with the other speakers in individual pairs. Apparently, my setup likes 24 db Butterworth X-overs...or at least my ears said so. When I settled on a setup that finally sounded like I wanted it to I ended up with:

Tweets: 6500 - 20K, 24 db BW
Mids: 1750 - 6500, 24 db BW
Woofs: 75 - 1750, 6 db
Subs: 20-80, 24 db BW

Some might look at this and say WTF? But to my ears, this sounded fantastic! Is there room for improvement? I'm sure, especially when i can get my RTA/mic combo to function like it's supposed to. But that makes it even more exciting for me. If this sounds this good, and I know it can improve a bit, that's wonderful! For the first time, my wife got in the car and got to audition it. She made the comment when playing one of her favorite songs "Rack City" by Tyga, well crap, it's never gonna sound this good in my car. 

Again, many thanks to all that have given me guidance and suggestions along the way. It has been a long journey (and it's still not over because i have more deadening to do :/) but I'm happy to say that it's really just tweaking from here on out. I'm looking super forward to the May meet because i want to hear some other awesome setups!


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

bbfoto said:


> *If you don't mind, can you post some of your favorite Metal tracks that you like to listen to? I want to play them on my reference system to see how it reproduces them...to see how balanced they are, or check for any anomalies, etc.*
> 
> Also, Metal recordings will rarely exhibit much if any type of deeply layered depth cues, so don't expect those. But Andy's guide and illustration of the _Distance To Stage_ depending on speaker placement is pretty much spot on.
> 
> Good luck.


My apologies for missing this earlier. Sure thing. Some of the songs I know very well and enjoy listening to are:
"Blood Stains" - Killswitch Engage
"Counterbalance" - Threat Signal
"5:12 am" - Novelists (beautifully written, articulated, and detailed song)


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Ummm...yes please. I could use a little classroom time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




How's this coming?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Simple answer...removing the woofers/tweets for Focal KX2's and K2P 5.25" for the rear speaks. I literally just got my tweeter pods today in the mail and I'm excited to install the high end speakers. 

I blew an SI M25 on the pass side. Idk how it happened, especially since I have a bass blocker installed. It is what it is. 

Installing the KX2's with FAST rings and new tweet pods and a complete new tune on the DSP. Ready to make this amazing.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Simple answer...removing the woofers/tweets for Focal KX2's and K2P 5.25" for the rear speaks. I literally just got my tweeter pods today in the mail and I'm excited to install the high end speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Did you decide to stay 2 way?


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

I would figure out why you blew that M25 before you install something else. Maybe the bass blocker is the problem. So it's possible that the DSP will eliminate that potential problem. The M25 can handle 1500hz and like 80w up high so it seems quite difficult to blow that tweeter unless something is wrong.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

I also bought them used...so I agree I could be a litany of things. I'm actually going to run the crossover with the KRX2's. I know that likely will make the audiophiles cringe, but it's what I'm going to do because I'm tired of tuning. I listened to some pro audio setups (SQL) about 2 weeks ago, and it taught me two things. I'm never going to compete in SQL, nor do I want a system that sounds that way. I guess I'm just an old school rocker. I want my **** loud and clean. I'll still run the midrange's and the rear speaks on the DSP and use them as fill. I mean hell, you can't even hear the midrange's anyway.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I also bought them used...so I agree I could be a litany of things. I'm actually going to run the crossover with the KRX2's. I know that likely will make the audiophiles cringe, but it's what I'm going to do because I'm tired of tuning. I listened to some pro audio setups (SQL) about 2 weeks ago, and it taught me two things. I'm never going to compete in SQL, nor do I want a system that sounds that way. I guess I'm just an old school rocker. I want my **** loud and clean. I'll still run the midrange's and the rear speaks on the DSP and use them as fill. I mean hell, you can't even hear the midrange's anyway.




If you can't hear your midrange something is wrong. That's where most of your content comes from 


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I also bought them used...so I agree I could be a litany of things. I'm actually going to run the crossover with the KRX2's. I know that likely will make the audiophiles cringe, but it's what I'm going to do because I'm tired of tuning. I listened to some pro audio setups (SQL) about 2 weeks ago, and it taught me two things. I'm never going to compete in SQL, nor do I want a system that sounds that way. I guess I'm just an old school rocker. I want my **** loud and clean. I'll still run the midrange's and the rear speaks on the DSP and use them as fill. I mean hell, you can't even hear the midrange's anyway.




If you can't hear your midrange something is wrong. That's where most of your content comes from. What do you mean "pro audio setups"


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> If you can't hear your midrange something is wrong. That's where most of your content comes from. What do you mean "pro audio setups"
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Like the setups that were competing in every class. 

And I can turn all the speakers off except the mids and run the entire frequency range (speaker spec) through them at full power and they barely sound like they're playing anything. I'm just over the whole active 3-way thing. Even after months of tuning and advise from the great dudes on here, my passive 2 way's ****s all over them.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Like the setups that were competing in every class.
> 
> 
> 
> And I can turn all the speakers off except the mids and run the entire frequency range (speaker spec) through them at full power and they barely sound like they're playing anything. I'm just over the whole active 3-way thing. Even after months of tuning and advise from the great dudes on here, my passive 2 way's ****s all over them.




Sounds like your mids have a problem. My 6.5" get loud as all hell. That's the thing with active if you tune is complete ass a passive can sound better. There is a lot going on with a 3 way setup. 


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> Sounds like your mids have a problem. My 6.5" get loud as all hell. That's the thing with active if you tune is complete ass a passive can sound better. There is a lot going on with a 3 way setup.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My 6.5's do get loud...the 4"ers do not. But I have a brand new set of Focal KX2's (full set) ready to be installed, as well as another 5.25" set of K2's for the rear setup. Should be the sound I'm looking for...at least I hope.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> My 6.5's do get loud...the 4"ers do not. But I have a brand new set of Focal KX2's (full set) ready to be installed, as well as another 5.25" set of K2's for the rear setup. Should be the sound I'm looking for...at least I hope.




So turn the 4s off and tune it as a two way and see happens 


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Like the setups that were competing in every class.
> 
> 
> 
> And I can turn all the speakers off except the mids and run the entire frequency range (speaker spec) through them at full power and they barely sound like they're playing anything. I'm just over the whole active 3-way thing. Even after months of tuning and advise from the great dudes on here, my passive 2 way's ****s all over them.


You've got some sort of serious problem there. Your mids should be the loudest (apparent loudness) speaker, since they play the sounds that we are most sensitive to.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Like the setups that were competing in every class.
> 
> 
> 
> And I can turn all the speakers off except the mids and run the entire frequency range (speaker spec) through them at full power and they barely sound like they're playing anything. I'm just over the whole active 3-way thing. Even after months of tuning and advise from the great dudes on here, my passive 2 way's ****s all over them.


Is it possible, since you've blown a tweeter and your mids are quiet, that your mid and tweet channels are swapped somewhere?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

ckirocz28 said:


> Is it possible, since you've blown a tweeter and your mids are quiet, that your mid and tweet channels are swapped somewhere?


Naw, when tuning I can turn each speaker on/off to verify the correct signal is going to the correct speaker. When tuning individual speakers, even if the wire were crossed, I would be able to hear it and just change the title of the channel assignment, and then tune as normal.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

ckirocz28 said:


> You've got some sort of serious problem there. Your mids should be the loudest (apparent loudness) speaker, since they play the sounds that we are most sensitive to.


I agree. Could they be defective, or just underperforming speakers? Who knows. I suppose it's possible. I mean after all, they're only $40 Daytons. I think in the end my idea will work (or at least I hope). The KX2 set running on passive and then having the mid-range to augment or aid in filling anywhere in the curve that needs a bump.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Like the setups that were competing in every class.
> 
> And I can turn all the speakers off except the mids and run the entire frequency range (speaker spec) through them at full power and they barely sound like they're playing anything. I'm just over the whole active 3-way thing. Even after months of tuning and advise from the great dudes on here, my passive 2 way's ****s all over them.


Well at some point looking at it more will not help.

Maybe just hire someone to sort it out.
It is either rookie thing, or something complex.
(Cut bait, and fish)


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I agree. Could they be defective, or just underperforming speakers? Who knows. I suppose it's possible. I mean after all, they're only $40 Daytons. I think in the end my idea will work (or at least I hope). The KX2 set running on passive and then having the mid-range to augment or aid in filling anywhere in the curve that needs a bump.




Having 2 speakers playing the same frequencies won't help you much. Why not turn the 4s off and see what a two way would sound like?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> Having 2 speakers playing the same frequencies won't help you much. Why not turn the 4s off and see what a two way would sound like?


Exactly what I'm planning on doing. I'm going to take some more pics too...and I just got a new GoPro that I might play with as well. This thread could use a photo influx to revive it a bit.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Exactly what I'm planning on doing. I'm going to take some more pics too...and I just got a new GoPro that I might play with as well. This thread could use a photo influx to revive it a bit.




Don't give up on active yet man your leaving do much on the table 


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## eficalibrator (Aug 25, 2005)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I'm just over the whole active 3-way thing. Even after months of tuning and advise from the great dudes on here, my passive 2 way's ****s all over them.


I went through a bunch of setups over the years, and it sounds like you're getting to where I am now too. I found that the best setup in my C6 was a high quality pair of 6.5" components with passive crossovers in the front of the car, using good clean power for them. 

In my case, it's Morel Titanium components on a hand-made passive X-O running off a JL 300/4. No messing with delay and slopes, nothing to get lost or mal-adjusted. I don't miss the rear speakers at all in that car with such a solid front stage.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

eficalibrator said:


> I went through a bunch of setups over the years, and it sounds like you're getting to where I am now too. I found that the best setup in my C6 was a high quality pair of 6.5" components with passive crossovers in the front of the car, using good clean power for them.
> 
> 
> 
> In my case, it's Morel Titanium components on a hand-made passive X-O running off a JL 300/4. No messing with delay and slopes, nothing to get lost or mal-adjusted. I don't miss the rear speakers at all in that car with such a solid front stage.




There isn't a passive set up on the planet that sounds as good as even a mildly well set up active system. Putting a cheap weak mid range in car running active with a terrible tune isn't going to help either. OP spent thousands on a vxi amp would be stupid to not use it or at least pay someone to tune it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> *There isn't a passive set up on the planet that sounds as good as even a mildly well set up active system.* Putting a cheap weak mid range in car running active with a terrible tune isn't going to help either. OP spent thousands on a vxi amp would be stupid to not use it or at least pay someone to tune it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I disagree with that whole heartedly. I listened to award winning systems (all actives) and wasn't very impressed. Does that mean they aren't impressive? Not at all. But after auditioning all those, I still preferred the sounds I have in my passive setup. "Great sounding" is totally subjective to the listener. As I mentioned...I guess I'm just an old school Neanderthal. I like loud...not SPL loud...but just rocker loud. If the passive Focal's aren't to my liking, I can always run them as a 3-way active again. But I doubt my "tuning expertise" will sound anywhere near as good as Focal's engineers.


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## Redliner99 (Mar 26, 2018)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I disagree with that whole heartedly. I listened to award winning systems (all actives) and wasn't very impressed. Does that mean they aren't impressive? Not at all. But after auditioning all those, I still preferred the sounds I have in my passive setup. "Great sounding" is totally subjective to the listener. As I mentioned...I guess I'm just an old school Neanderthal. I like loud...not SPL loud...but just rocker loud. If the passive Focal's aren't to my liking, I can always run them as a 3-way active again. But I doubt my "tuning expertise" will sound anywhere near as good as Focal's engineers.




Great sounding is totally subjective your absolutely correct. But after having 2 passive setups one being focal flax 2 way. Then active on the flax there was zero comparrison. After being able to tune down most of the harshness on the focals they were ok still super bright. Active on the focals was miles better is my point. A passive cross over is only a high and low pass filter. There is no eq added on them. Maybe attentiating the tweeters but you can do the same thing on an active setup just set it to flat. So if you like ear splitting focal sound then that's fine. You should have skizers remote tune your setup and see what you think. As far as volume, your coming off as active sq set ups don't get loud. I can run myself out of my car in 1 second flat. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## eficalibrator (Aug 25, 2005)

Redliner99 said:


> There isn't a passive set up on the planet that sounds as good as even a mildly well set up active system.


 Troll much? I guess you better start with all those home audio guys wasting money on garbage like B&W 801's with those lousy passive networks on them. I'm keeping my air core inductors, poly caps, and zobel network in my Corvette for now, thanks.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

eficalibrator said:


> Troll much? I guess you better start with all those home audio guys wasting money on garbage like B&W 801's with those lousy passive networks on them. I'm keeping my air core inductors, poly caps, and zobel network in my Corvette for now, thanks.


He's not wrong. You can't compare a car environment with a room. That's like saying your car sucks because it can't carry as much plywood as my pickup truck. 

When you can't get a tune perfect in a car, which most can't, a passive can sound way better than an active setup. However with the right tune and the right speakers ab active setup will sound better in a car.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Redliner99 said:


> Great sounding is totally subjective your absolutely correct. But after having 2 passive setups one being focal flax 2 way. Then active on the flax there was zero comparrison. After being able to tune down most of the harshness on the focals they were ok still super bright. Active on the focals was miles better is my point. A passive cross over is only a high and low pass filter. There is no eq added on them. Maybe attentiating the tweeters but you can do the same thing on an active setup just set it to flat. So if you like ear splitting focal sound then that's fine. You should have skizers remote tune your setup and see what you think. As far as volume, your coming off as active sq set ups don't get loud. I can run myself out of my car in 1 second flat.


Keep in mind that these are a bi-amp-able set of components still running from a signal coming from a DSP. That means I can still kill harshness. It's kind of neat when you think about it...even running passive crossover, every speaker is still getting it's own amp channel controllable by the DSP. That also means you can still tune the frequency range as well. I'm using them almost as a "seasoned pro front man" where as my tuning of the other speakers actively are like the "back-up singers." If they're not perfect, it doesn't ruin the song. LOL!


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## maybebigfootisblurr (Nov 4, 2011)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Keep in mind that these are a bi-amp-able set of components still running from a signal coming from a DSP. That means I can still kill harshness. It's kind of neat when you think about it...even running passive crossover, every speaker is still getting it's own amp channel controllable by the DSP. That also means you can still tune the frequency range as well. I'm using them almost as a "seasoned pro front man" where as my tuning of the other speakers actively are like the "back-up singers." If they're not perfect, it doesn't ruin the song. LOL!


If you're going with the "Focal engineers know more than I do" approach, why not just set your DSP crossover cut-off freq and slopes to match what the passives are designed at?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

kfinch said:


> If you're going with the "Focal engineers know more than I do" approach, why not just set your DSP crossover cut-off freq and slopes to match what the passives are designed at?


Because they're never specific about their crossover settings. They mention broad brush strokes like "~3K hz on a 6/12/18 db"...stuff like that. Believe me, I would've started there if I knew the specifics.


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Because they're never specific about their crossover settings. They mention broad brush strokes like "~3K hz on a 6/12/18 db"...stuff like that. Believe me, I would've started there if I knew the specifics.


The passive crossovers are set at 3kHz from what I can tell in the user manual. Switch 1 adjusts the Tweeter HPF slope between 12dB & 18dB/octave. Switch 2 adjusts the Woofer LPF slope between 6dB & 12dB/octave. Switch 3 looks like a shelf filter on/off for the top end of the tweeter. Switch 4 is the tweeter level attenuation of +3dB, +0dB, -3dB (really 0, -3, -6). If I had to guess, the slopes are likely all Butterworth alignment. 

When all else fails... RTFM.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

MAJOR UPDATE!

So, I have finally reached a point where I can say that I'm done buying speakers and parts. The final round of refresh consisted of removing the M25 tweeters, and the Dayton RS-160-4 6.5" woofers. I installed the Focal ES 165 KRX2's in tweeter pods (the same as the M25's) and then put in the 6.5" woofers. I added some FAST rings around the cone of the woofers and used speaker gasket on the tweets before tightening down in the pods. Once the amp was rewired to run individual channels again, I removed the Focal Integration 5.25s and installed 5.25" K2Ps (again from Focal). Decision time. I had initially wanted to run the passive crossovers with the KRX2's, but my friend insisting not to as well as not being able to find a place to mount them where I could actually use them (they're HUGE!) made me reconsider. Boy am I glad he talked me out of it. I now run a full active 8-way setup. Each speaker has it's own individual channel. Before you put me on blast for running rear speakers, they sound great, thanks to the tuning. 

The tuning, OMG the tuning. This is easily where a system is made or broken, not to mention the single biggest source of my frustrations thus far. A HUGE thanks to my friend Forrest who came through in a late night thrash to dial this mamma jamma in. I spent easily 12 hours on completing the install (taking a break every 2 hours or so since it was 100* in my garage). I will admit, tuning has always eluded me...at least with any expertise. What Forrest showed me was without a doubt the most impressive display of professional tuning I've ever seen. He easily has more in tuning gear than my whole audio system is worth. Just the software he used was well north of $1K. So no mic and RTA was used...lol. Naw man...try 5 microphones in an array (damn mic stand weighed like 35 pounds) all connected to a multi-screen setup displaying the sound measuring software, a laptop for the DSP software, and full integration of the two. It took about 30 minutes just to set everything up. After it was setup, within 2 hours Forrest had her screaming boy! We (hey, I was there for moral support) dialed each driver in individually using the "JBL curve." This is where JL's new software really shines. Each driver has a fully individualized 10 band EQ. My attempts at tuning had me only using 1 of the available EQ bands. Forrest used all 10. We played "Pulsed Pink noise" not standard pink noise and that made quite a big difference when measuring real time playback. We started with the tweeters set on a 4500 Hz 24 db BW and no high limit set. Each of those only used about 5 points to dial in (after lowering the db about 12.5 points.) Then we did the 4” mids from 1750 Hz – 4500 Hz also on a 24 db BW. Same deal, about 5 points needed to smooth the curve. Then to the 6.5” woofers. Set these to 80 Hz – 1750 Hz on 24 db BW. We needed to drop these about 10 db to get them “on the curve.” Man do those damn things rip! We set the rear speakers to play from 200 Hz – 2000 Hz (well within their freq range) and mirrored the woofer curve. Now…the subwoofer. That beautiful W7AE…you know the one I almost sold. Let me tell you, the curve on thing was spiked at 40 Hz. The rear glass in the vette brings a TON of gain with it. We turned it down like 18 db and then had to drop 3-4 low “Q” points at 40 Hz just to get the 20-80 Hz plateau curve lined up. But once that happened, we give manually give the gain back. Satisfied with the curves, polarities and crossovers, we moved on to time alignment. 

Watching this software do time alignment was AWESOME! Think we used a measuring tape? Haha, hell no! His software plotted out the frequency plot from the furthest speaker (passenger woof in my case) and he pulsed each driver and aligned the sine wave over one another. By altering the delay, we could literally align each driver PERFECTLY within thousandths of milliseconds. It took all of five minutes. Satisfied that we were there, we gave the first music a listen. OH MY GOD! I had no idea my car could sound that impressive. It was clean, crisp, and detailed. Pure bliss. I’m so glad I let him tune my rig man because I would’ve chased my tail for MONTHS trying to get it to sound half as good as it does now. We jammed out to Killswitch, Petey Pablo, Poison, Novelists and it all sounded amazing. And that W7…my god that thing absolutely HAMMERS in a small corvette. Honestly, I’m bummed I didn’t take any pics of the setup because that would’ve made this post so much better, and I’m going to see if he has any of his setup that he is willing to share, so look for a future update. I will take some pics of the finished stuff later today…so happy y’all. Thanks for reading!


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## Notloudenuf (Sep 14, 2008)

That is great news! Forrest is a great dude. So glad you are happy with your setup now.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

More pics: (Changed curves off of the JBL curve and used a "custom" curve)
So in the 5th picture, we're setting the time alignment. I have a YouTube coming showing this in real time. In the 3rd picture, the target is the dark blue line. For those of you that know tuning, that picture is taken in 1/6th Octave, so that's really remarkable. The main 6.5" woofer curves actually looked like saw teeth when we started. For those of you who are new to tuning, the colors displayed are as follows:
Light blue: Subwoofer
Dark blue: 6.5 mid
Pink: Rear speakers
Orange: Mid-range
Green: Tweeter 

Here's the microphone rig...(the 5th microphone is hidden in the shadow of the flash)

Also, I know the woofers in the doors aren't "looking" very clean yet. I plan to finish the doors with VB2 and some black paint. You won't be able to see the deadening and fast rings when I'm done.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Notloudenuf said:


> That is great news! Forrest is a great dude. So glad you are happy with your setup now.


Yeah he is man. I'm glad he is so eager to help a newb. He has taught me a ton in just a few tuning hours.


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## Truthunter (Jun 15, 2015)

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I'm glad he is so eager to help a newb. He has taught me a ton in just a few tuning hours.


That's what the NCSQ group is all about. They really helped me out in the beginning too


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Trust me man, the tune is more important than any special piece of equipment in the build, I spent over $20k 10 years ago putting together what was supposed to be a 10 second all motor k24/k20 and blew that **** up trying to tune it myself. Rebuilt it and was never able to get it lower than a 13.2, a guy at the track loaded a tune to my ecu that has a similar setup to mine and the car ran a 11.6 immediately after, that’s the first time that I realized that the single most important part is the tune.


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## aelancaster (May 7, 2008)

Does Forrest ever travel with his tuning equipment anywhere near say charleston sc or savannah ga ?


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

I can't speak for him. He's on this board though...look for Darkrider


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## saltyone (Feb 2, 2019)

I just read this whole thread...damn. Robin, you and I seem to share a passion for great audio, and a “do it my damn self” attitude. I too finally learned to partner with a professional and just learn everything I could. I’m clueless at the moment, or close to it, when it comes to properly tuning a vehicle. I’m going from two way passive to three way active next week, and I plan on being in the shop for every second of tuning, taking detailed notes. I’m an analyst also, and not knowing something and understanding it like the back of my hand literally pisses me off. I must be the subject matter expert in everything I do...no matter how much time and energy it takes to become so. Kudos. 

The install looks great and I’m sure it sounds amazing. I’ve been enjoying the passive setup I have presently for a couple of months. Because of this, I’m hopeful that the active setup will blow me away, as yours has you. 

Being this passionate about something naturally leads to wanting to immerse yourself totally into “the scene”, so I’m planning to start attending SQL events as soon as possible. I’ve known the guys at the shop for 30 years and will start hanging out there as much as possible, to continue learning.

What a great thread! LOL, you do seem a little bi-polar though...surprised you didn’t burn the car down at some point out of frustration! Haha...just kidding. Well done sir!


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

saltyone said:


> I just read this whole thread...damn. Ronin, you and I seem to share a passion for great audio, and a “do it my damn self” attitude. I too finally learned to partner with a professional and just learn everything I could. I’m clueless at the moment, or close to it, when it comes to properly tuning a vehicle. I’m going from two way passive to three way active next week, and I plan on being in the shop for every second of tuning, taking detailed notes. I’m an analyst also, and not knowing something and understanding it like the back of my hand literally pisses me off. I must be the subject matter expert in everything I do...no matter how much time and energy it takes to become so. Kudos.
> 
> The install looks great and I’m sure it sounds amazing. I’ve been enjoying the passive setup I have presently for a couple of months. Because of this, I’m hopeful that the active setup will blow me away, as yours has you.
> 
> ...


I could never burn down my car...but I did want to burn down some speakers and my RTA/Mic setup. I never could get that UMI-1 to work right.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

UPDATE:
I took some new measurements after the VB2 install (no music playing). 
Road noise 80 mph (M2W open) - 79.8 db
Road noise 80 mph (M2W closed) - 73.5 db
To put this into perspective, the normal speaking voice at normal conversation volume is about 75-80 db (subjective to who's talking obviously). That means when the exhaust is in quiet mode, you could literally whisper to each other in my car and hear each other perfectly clear. The wife and I took a spin to test that hypothesis, and yep...we could whisper to each other. I have another mod coming that I think will quiet the car down even more. I'm moving to a coil over suspension because IMO the transverse leaf spring in the vette's acts like a giant tuning fork. I can then isolate the suspension mounting points with some MLV/CCF. Way overkill I know, but hey...small efforts can lead to big results. I also want to install some Focal BAM on the headliner area. That truly is the one area that I hear the most noise from right now...and the wheels. I also found a new product in the Tesla world that drops dbs even more. Mainly, it’s an acoustic door seal kit that adds a significant STC rating increase. IMO it’s worth the 30ish bucks to try. Also, Forrest and I spent one more 8-hour day tuning. We made some pretty significant changes. The final freq ranges are:

Tweets – 4 KHz – 20K+ Hz on a 24 db L/R high pass crossover 

Mids – 713 Hz – 4 KHz on a 24 db L/R high/low pass crossover

Woofs – 85 Hz – 713 Hz on a 48 db L/R low pass crossover and 24 db BW high pass crossover

Sub – 20 Hz – 90 Hz on a 24 db BW low pass crossover

We found that reducing the ranges to an 18 db reduction at the Fs of the driver is ideal for the safety and longevity of each driver. That’s why there’s a wonky 48 db curve in the woofers. That makes it so the woofer reaches an 18 db reduction in output at its specific resonant frequency. It also works out that the drivers absolutely love these ranges and crossovers. 

A word about polarity. Here’ is something that we found by chance, but made a HUGE impact. It turns out that tuning by individual driver is the ideal way to tune. BUT! If you do not run the entire system and check the polarity of each driver, you could miss something major. In my case, and in the C6, this was absolutely true. Turns out that when I said, hey, let’s play all the drivers and do a polarity check, that’s where all my midbass was hiding. When we (in the driver’s seat listening position) flipped the polarity of the passenger rear speaker, we immediately saw a 10 db INCREASE in the 100-550hz range across the entire range. Holy crap! 10 db?!?! So, we started testing the individual drivers again and flipping the polarity of each driver. It turns out the rear drivers are really important in the C6. They increased the midbass 10 db by just dialing them in. This was the smoking gun in my “lack of midbass.” What’s more is that it was true for every position we tuned for (driver, passenger, and center). For the passenger side, the driver rear needed a flipped polarity to pick up the midbass. Same for the center. When we did this, it made such a HUGE difference. The sound in the car became absolutely beautiful and full. I can FINALLY say, my active 8-way now sounds better than my truck…and convincingly so. This is easily the BEST this system has ever sounded. I know I’ve said that a lot through this build, but it’s not just me this time. Everyone that has experienced this system since its build has heard it now, and have been as blown away as I am. We figured it out man! This is the cleanest system I’ve heard…and I love it. The sound deadening is going well, and it’s all working. It can only get better from here. I hope this update helps someone. If you ever have questions about audio in a corvette…please hit me up. I think tuning a C6 could be a full time job. I’m happy to help Corvette folks. Now, I just need to replace my wounded sub.


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## Pb82 Ronin (Jun 6, 2018)

Oh yeah, here's the door VB2 install.


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## vince (Apr 5, 2008)

are you finished yet?


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Redliner99 said:


> Depends on the specs of your speakers on where to start. The nasty dip is probably cancelation of the center console. It happens in almost all installs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is a bit of an odd one… work out pathlength difference between direct and the reflected path off the console… the difference is half the wavelength of the cancellation… it won’t be 400hz which is 33.9” or 17” for half of it I don’t think

it’s more likely to be the sum of various reflections all summing if it’s one big dip, not just the one thing


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