# horns on top of the dash?



## rambronco

Current vehicle does not have room for horns in the usual spot. I was curious if anyone has ever run them on top of the dash? In this vehicle would be about chest level. I don't think cosmetically it would look to bad as I would just run a dash pad over the top. Does running horns that high up pose any special issues that you guys could think of?

RB


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## [email protected]

I think part of what helps a horn work well in a car is the mating of the opening with the bottom of the dash, so the dash becomes an extension of the horn. I don't think you could get that with them on top. Other than that, I have no idea....


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## Mic10is

puts you to much on axis with the horn. It wont work well.

a similar example, as Joey mentioned , part of how Horns work is bc of the coupling with the dash and the dash becoming an extension of the horn.
Even when done properly, if someone is very short they get too much on axis energy from the horn and the stage height for them is extremely low and it doesnt center as well and the car starts to sound very in your face.


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## minbari

try it and see. since the horns are fully enclosed. put then on the dash and hook em up. think it wont take more than 5 minutes of listening to determine it sounds bad


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## dobslob

I built a Civic with horns mounted in the top of the dash replacing the defroster area and with the drivers almost on the floor. The path length difference was small and the stage was great, but the tonality was awful and I wasn't able to bring it to something I was willing to show off to anyone.

It got attention as I was building it and someone else really liked it so I sold the car and built another.


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## Eric Stevens

It's not so much the coupling with the dash as it is the dispersion pattern changes with the relative listen position or axis to the output. More on axis you get less of a crossfire effect. 

It can work well but what needs to happen as you get more on axis is the PLD needs to improve and get it under 8". An upward firing direction works as long as the PLD is equal to or better than under dash mounting location. 

All this is referring to the staging and image position within the sound stage. If you are willing to set up as a single seater or not worried about a world class stage it will work just fine without the very low PLD.

Eric


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## win1

Mark Eldrige ran horns in the dash of his Toyota 4 Runner back in the day in the Expert Class 600 Watts and up won a couple trophys sounded very nice back then, Using the JBL horn motors


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## Mic10is

win1 said:


> Mark Eldrige ran horns in the dash of his Toyota 4 Runner back in the day in the Expert Class 600 Watts and up won a couple trophys sounded very nice back then, Using the JBL horn motors


Marks horns were all custom build specifically for his vehicle and had a very steep roll off around 8khz if I remember right


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## jpeezy

jim adams firebird had horns on top,it did very well, and earl wills had his just below chest level,mid point on dash and he did very well too.horns and kickpanels take advantage of humans ability to hear and differentiate left and right sounds more so than up and down.richard clark and david navone did some pretty extensive testing years ago while doing the autosound 2k briefs.it also showed that there is a paticular pattern of deep notches in our frequency response that we hear,that causes the effect of something sounding like it is coming from up or down.as eric said if you get your pathlength differences very small and as the holdaways have said if you can get rid of alot of your phase issues within the frequency response (that is one of the many reasons for doing two-ways with a wide band driver or speaker,so as to get rid of phase issues in our most sensitive region of hearing around 3000-3500 hz.) you will get a tremendous sounding car in return. there are two speaker configurations that i have used inmy 28 years of installing, for creating phenomenal imaging,and staging, coaxially mounted midbass and tweeters,(ads,and original mb quarts, pioneers)in kickpanels, and horns/midbass configurations.


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## pocket5s

There was a third gen Camaro that had horns firing up through the dash back in the 90s. I thought SpeakerWorks did it but can't find a pic of it.


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## rambronco

Thanks for all of the replies. I do not own any horns yet and am not looking for a world class sounding vehicle. I am really looking for a setup that is loud as hell and still sounds good. Horns seemed like an easy way to get the loud as hell part due to their efficiency ratings, couple them with some solid mid-bass and have a somewhat simple loud setup.

RB


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## rambronco

Eric Stevens said:


> It's not so much the coupling with the dash as it is the dispersion pattern changes with the relative listen position or axis to the output. More on axis you get less of a crossfire effect.
> 
> It can work well but what needs to happen as you get more on axis is the PLD needs to improve and get it under 8". An upward firing direction works as long as the PLD is equal to or better than under dash mounting location.
> 
> All this is referring to the staging and image position within the sound stage. If you are willing to set up as a single seater or not worried about a world class stage it will work just fine without the very low PLD.
> 
> Eric


When you mention PLD what exactly is that referring to? thinking something along the line of sound wave lengths but not sure.

Not big on a one seat vehicle but as mentioned just want it to sound good I guess "loud and non-fatiguing" would be my ideal system


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## minbari

Path length distance

sent from my phone using digital farts


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## ariko81

Path length _difference_.


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## jpeezy

matt hashimoto,nice car and install,yes the horns had the same scoop near the mouth that their grand national had,just in a different direction.matts had the scoop firing towards the listeners from on top of the dash ,and the buick fired at the listeners from under the dash.i did a firebird for leighton shor many years ago and he was quite successful in iasca in florida(leighton's used conventional drivers,alot of them!,and i had that dash pretty much completely out of the car,if someone puts horns up on the dash,you are in for alot of work,godbless!we had considered horns for that car but at the time they were too new.


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## sh.moto.2

horns in the dash of my '99 chevy work truck is my next project. there is just too much obstructing the mounting options for them. i have competedwith horns for several years and now i just want them loud as hell


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## Patrick Bateman

Worked well for me. I think the main advantage of horns on the dash is that the windshield makes a fine horn, particularly in cars with a steeply sloped windshield. (This was my '05 Honda Accord coupe.)


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## sh.moto.2

OK, BEEN READING THIS THREAD WRONG! horns _on_ top of the dash. we did a pair of veritas _in_ the top of the dash with 8" midbass inthe kicks back in '98. so now that it just turned on my brain from years of THC overload..... its coming back to me. cleaner i get the more memory i have with the side effect of lose of creativity! LMFAO


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## SQram

sh.moto.2 said:


> OK, BEEN READING THIS THREAD WRONG! horns _on_ top of the dash. we did a pair of veritas _in_ the top of the dash with 8" midbass inthe kicks back in '98. so now that it just turned on my brain from years of THC overload..... its coming back to me. cleaner i get the more memory i have with the side effect of lose of creativity! LMFAO


How did it turn out? Did you find there was any sonic benefit to having them in the dash rather than under the dash? 

I talked to Jim Adams a few years back and he swore up and down that having the horns inside the dash firing up at the windshied broght his car to the next level and it was far superior to having them under the dash. I have pictures of the dash/horn they built that extended the mouth of the Veritas horn.

I am considering doing this in my next install, just need to find the time...


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## sh.moto.2

from my experience, they were awesome however..... the were mount at the winshield which made the dash itself an extension of the horn.... my buddy Aaron Davis actually rerouted the a/c vents, window defroster and computer of course for the sealed veritas midbass.... we used a rockford EPXII which is only a 12db/oct x-over..... the cars that i heard that sound better were using modded studio gear which was _at the time _ the ideal tuning gear. we tried to put abs trim pieces with grill cloth however TX heats ruins everything. o by the way the car was like a '95 camaro... flat dash and the kicks were as deep as the horns in a .15-.25ft3. Cerwin Vega Stroker 15"(2)..... (2)Audio Art 100hc... (2)Audio Art 50hc and u could still see out the back window..... tuned to 35hz..... i hyave pics some where i'll post them


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## SQram

Same gear Jim was running, Veritas horns/midbasses and Stroker subs in a Firebird. 

I've got the Veritas horns/midbasses which I've used in several installs, might try Illusion horns firing up in my next install...


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## win1

Hey if you guys don't mind posting those pics when you find them it would be great checking out all avenues with the horns being adventurous


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## sh.moto.2

SQram said:


> Same gear Jim was running, Veritas horns/midbasses and Stroker subs in a Firebird.
> 
> I've got the Veritas horns/midbasses which I've used in several installs, might try Illusion horns firing up in my next install...


wut kinda processing and amps did he have?


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## SQram

Custom Rane processors (I bought them then sold them).

Orion HCCA amps, then MTX Thunder amps.

When I get home from vacation I'll try and find the pictures...


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## thehatedguy

Howie Linwang had a Camaro in the 90s that had horns built into the dash, they fired at you...a lot like how Femi Adgoke had his car set up, which isn't a surprise since Femi was a consultant on the car too, but I never heard that Femi's car really worked that well. Femi was with ID in the beginning.


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## sh.moto.2

i plan on reppin Eric's brand hard bcuz i've been with Matt, then Eric and ID but, the way ID did Eric made me wanna do some serious competing again...... it's not everyday that you can talk to someone of that caliber and feel unitimidated. i only hope in the future he not only makes hi-efncy vehicle specific midbass but 8"-12" mid to compliment the already extraordinary hlcd!


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## copter

Back in tha' day we installed EV T35 tweeters and 1824m mids in defrost vents and they'd image very well. Problem is todays dashes don't have enough room with air bags and all the nav stuff to get the horns mounted.


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## TheScottishBear

Has anyone found those pictures? I would definitely like to see them.


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## win1

Yes second that if anyone has had the time to look for them please post thanks


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## PureDynamics

One's I've come across so far on my harddrive.


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## subwoofery

Ohh yeah... I remember Matt showing me those pics about an install he has done for a customer.
Matt told me it did not sound that great compared to an under-the-dash horn install... 

Kelvin 

PS: nice find :thumbsup:


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## PureDynamics

That is correct Kelvin.


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## TheScottishBear

Cool pics. If you wanted to make it work on the dash what kind of horn or waveguide would you use to get the same sound as the under dash horns? Maybe a 8 or 10" round waveguide like Dayton sells with some modification.


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## jpeezy

Jerry Ziegler's crx,,pioneer odr stuff? You know it's serious when you have the front and or back windshields out!


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## Eric Stevens

TheScottishBear said:


> Cool pics. If you wanted to make it work on the dash what kind of horn or waveguide would you use to get the same sound as the under dash horns? Maybe a 8 or 10" round waveguide like Dayton sells with some modification.


Wont ever sound like underdash because of the reflective nature of the area and problems that creates.

Round waveguide or other CD horn flare wont cure the problems of direct versus reflected energy etc.

Eric


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## lostthumb

PureDynamics said:


> One's I've come across so far on my harddrive.


Blast from the past! I remember Matt working on that car at Audio Designs. It took some time.


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## WTF1978

how would it sound if you ran the horns up the A pillar with the diaphragm at the bottom by the dash?


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## AccordUno

jpeezy said:


> Jerry Ziegler's crx,,pioneer odr stuff? You know it's serious when you have the front and or back windshields out!


Unless it's was after 1995-96 time frame, doesn't look like it..

BTW, that was a pretty nice car and install.. I got some pictures of it somewhere in my stash of photos..


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## Mic10is

AccordUno said:


> Unless it's was after 1995-96 time frame, doesn't look like it..
> 
> BTW, that was a pretty nice car and install.. I got some pictures of it somewhere in my stash of photos..


that was Zeiglers car..ODR steering wheel is a dead give-a-way


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## Eric Stevens

WTF1978 said:


> how would it sound if you ran the horns up the A pillar with the diaphragm at the bottom by the dash?


Poor PLD (path length difference) so it would only work for single seat and the dispersion pattern of the under dash horns that makes them work well in a reflective environment will only work mounted horizontal.

To sum up, wont work well at all.

Eric


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## SteveH!

It would be great to see these pics added to the horn install pic thread.! lot of these cars are brinigin back memories .


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## 2wheelie

Eric,

If the mouth of the horn could be flush with and butted up against the windshield, would this fix the reflection issues? 

I measured the PLD difference between the upper dash location and under dash and the difference on top is actually smaller. Fox body mustang btw.


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## Eric Stevens

If you can couple the horn with the windshield and then treat the top of the dash with proper sound absorption foam to prevent compound reflections it should work excellent. 

Eric


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