# 3 way front stage Placement poll



## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

Along with the poll, with those who voted i'd like to know why you chose what you chose. I'm still comtemplating on where to place the tweeter mainly. I heard vestax's car last week (the guy w/ lotus dual midbass) and the stage was quite low. I know it already a given that you will lose height with them in kicks anyways but if i do an a-pillar install you think it'd be hard to image and level match? right now i already made baffles for my lotus 4" and lotus 1". both sides are hooked up now and the stage is low, but i'm sure if i mess with it a bit i can heighten my stage a bit more. but just curious on other people's opinion.


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## corrado (Jun 15, 2005)

can have one more option?
mid/tweet at a-pillar.
that is how I do it.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

lol eh too much work to build speaker pods for the midrange up there. nice try though .


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## deezal77 (Jul 4, 2006)

Mids in kicks for best centre image and tweets in A-pillars for high soundstage with no rainbowing effect at the high frequencies.


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## DigitalBoomer (Aug 29, 2005)

deezal77 said:


> Mids in kicks for best centre image and tweets in A-pillars for high soundstage with no rainbowing effect at the high frequencies.


x2! Plus having the mids in the kicks helps you optimize equal pathlengths which minimizes the need for electronic manipulation of the signal. I'm assuming you are going with an active set-up. You need the ability to control the signal to each driver. If you are going with passive crossovers then you would be better served keeping the tweeters as close to the mid-range as possible...which would mean both in the kicks.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

You got the processing to make any of it work. I'd go to the pillars with the tweet to eliminate a 'possible' stage height issue. That would sucxor after fabricating kicks to fit both. It will also allow more room/space to angle the 4" optimally while have a smaller sized kick.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

Pillars, off axis = stage height IME. You could also put the tweets in the factory sail location to minimize windshield reflection...although that brings the driver's side tweet pretty close. Not sure how you'd like a metal dome that close. But it's all about T/A and aiming. Somehow I've managed to pull it off.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

wow so far its an overwhelming majority for the pillars. looks like it vinyl wrapping time .


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## juddspaintballs (Aug 30, 2006)

I prefer keeping the tweets closer to the midbass so the driver's tweet isnt much closer than the passenger tweet is. also helps keep the sound coming from a single location when you hit those cut off frequencies of your crossover. 

but they can still sound good in the A pillars too. this is just where personal preference and skill in mounting them comes into play.


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## fit_tuner (Aug 14, 2006)

well, y dont u do what that guy did with his g35? main tweet down low in the kicks, and an imaging tweet to bring up the soundstage in the sails or a-pillar? you could probably find a small 25x4 amp that'll fit under ur seat, see if supa_c (on ca.com) still has that old rf i told u about


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Tweet in the kicks can work well. I'd just suggest using a metal dome tweeter and try aiming it a bit. I'd prefer that over tweets in the a-pillar, multiple sources FTL!


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## rbenz27 (Mar 9, 2006)

I'm not sure what the difference would be in a 3 way setup, but I would do something like what csuflyboy over at ECA did. Mids and tweet in kicks. It was suggested that the tweets in a-pillars are a band-aid fix for stage height... I don't have any direct experience but its something I would like to experiment if I was re-doing my front stage. Hope this helps...


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## bobduch (Jul 22, 2005)

Csu's stage height is good with tweets in kicks. We tried for hours to get the same thing in my Odyssey van with no luck so into the pillars they went.
So I think the vehicle has a lot to do with it.
FWIW in my new car (530) I'm doing tweets in kicks and if height is a problem I'll do the extra attenuated tweets in the sails to bring up the height. Will also time align those to match their respective drivers in the kicks. So I'm not talking about (yet) aligning from side to side, but rather to align all the speakers on the right with each other and all the speakers on the left with each other.


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

rbenz27 said:


> It was suggested that the tweets in a-pillars are a band-aid fix for stage height.


True, but it's also a good solution for the inexperienced. I think there's a learning curve involved in setting it up how it 'should' be set up.


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## shinjohn (Feb 8, 2006)

Hey Peter,
When you had a two way and moved your Ref tweets to your kicks, you felt the stage height did not suffer at all, and IIRC you even felt it was alot better. Why would you feel then that having both tweet and mid in the kick now would be a bad idea? Seems if you liked it before, you'd still like it now. If *your* car works well with the tweets in the kicks, and you like it like that, then that's all that matters, right?


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

well i didn't say the height was better, i just said imaging, staging was much better in the kicks. i did get a pretty decen height, probably between the nose and the chin. somewhere around there. as of right now i'm still messing with angles and maybe i'll make new baffles because right now i have both the mid and the kick in one baffle and its hard to mess with the tweeter itself as if i move the the tweeter, the mid will have to move as well.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

I agree with putting the tweet and mid in the A pillar. Thats what sounds best in my car.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

whoa this thread is back from the dead. btw, i did put the tweets in the pillars. sounds pretty good so far.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Yea i'm glad i went with the Tweets pillar, Midrange kicks, and Midbasses in doors, i feel like the stage height is VERY high, and very expansive deep, and tonal accuracy is utterly amazing, more detail than i've ever heard.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

I have the same setup as demon and I agree with him completely. The best part is that the detail and stage height remains even if you open the windows. Since I enjoy driving with windows/moonroof open when weather permits, having that detail up high and un-obstructed by my legs is a real benefit.

I honestly cannot hear the crossover point between my tweets and mids (Ir 1" and Ir 3"). Only when I move my head down below the dash does it become obvious. I wonder sometimes if my mids are playing...but they are...the sound just isn't pulled down the least bit.


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## Fozz (Dec 16, 2005)

In my car Im using the mid & tweet in the upperdash/ "A" pillar and my midbass is in the kick.

Works very well.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

out of curiousity for those who have the tweets in the pillars, where do you guys have your tweets aimed at? i have them pointing straight across each other.


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## boarder124 (Mar 16, 2006)

As of right now im using some tb 3" fullrange's on the dash, aimed on axis. The stage and hight is almost perfect, just a little eq and it should be about right.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

alphakenny1 said:


> out of curiousity for those who have the tweets in the pillars, where do you guys have your tweets aimed at? i have them pointing straight across each other.


I had them aimed at the center of the glass and loved them. Right now I have them aiming in so the passenger side tweet is on axis with my ear. I dont like it. The sound stage is too close and the tweets are too bright.


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## z_accoustics (Sep 8, 2006)

I have this same dillmma of where to put the tweet/mid. I was thinking mids in the kicks and tweet in the sail or apilar but became unsure when someone at ECA pointed out that hearing different vocals from different locations would screw up the stage. I gather that the people who have sprated their drivers are not suffering from this possible effect...


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## FoxPro5 (Feb 14, 2006)

z_accoustics said:


> I have this same dillmma of where to put the tweet/mid. I was thinking mids in the kicks and tweet in the sail or apilar but became unsure when someone at ECA pointed out that hearing different vocals from different locations would screw up the stage. I gather that the people who have sprated their drivers are not suffering from this possible effect...


Werewolf just had an excellent thread regarding that. I think it's in the Tech section.


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

I find placement has a lot to do with what tuning features you have. If you don't have TA, you're stuck leaving the tweeters by the woofer unless you can find a place equal-distant as the woofer. You may even need to go active to allow independent driver control of attentuation and TA to get everything to dial in together.

Optimum is always a single left and single rigth point sorce. You define the width and height by placement and aim. When you step away from this single point source idealology, you need to start compensating for things. If you don't have the tuning power, you limit workable options.


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

midrange and tweets in the kicks. usually, the kicks provide the shortest PLD's compared to most other mounting points. also, if you have the mids in the kicks, where PLD's will be less, and then the tweeters in the pillars, with larger PLD's, the stage is gonna have problems and there will be a greater degree of comb filtering as well. also, we, people, are simply NOT good at determining where on a vertical plane sounds come from. that's why we don't have ears on the top of our head and on our chin. it's pretty much accepted that we do not localize vertical sound nearly as well as we do L and R. in proper kick panels (3 of my cars so far) i have NEVER ONCE had a "low" soundstage. they have all sounded very good and nicely across the dash area.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

very old thread.

i experimented some more and went with the mids and tweets in kicks!


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## lucas569 (Apr 17, 2007)

this is good stuff! thanks guys...


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## Bsams (Feb 8, 2007)

2003 Tacoma, xt25s in kicks and mids in doors. no processing or time alignment, passive xovers, and everyone that listens thinks my tweets are up in stock locations on top of the door panels. imaging is perfect. always experiment with locations, i just use double stick tape and long wires and listen listen and listen some more. every vehicle has its own optimum location its up to u to find them. sorry for the rant


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## Fish Chris (Dec 14, 2008)

I've had mids/tweets in the kicks, and it sucked. My feet have terrible hearing. Ended up blowing those tweets trying to get enough output from them, to make it all the way up to my ears.

With my new setup, my mids and tweets are in the stock door spots, and the sound coming from them is so freaking awesome, that maybe that's why I haven't gotten so overly concerned with my imaging "just yet". 

Now IMPO, having the mids and tweets in the a-pillars (especially in my truck, where the a-pillars are a good distance away, and my dash is nice and deep) would give phenominal imaging..... However, it would also advertise to the crackheads and scumbag thieves that walk past my vehicle daily, that I have something worth stealing :-( Having them hidden in the stock door spots makes them SOOO much better for security.

Hmmmmm,
Fish


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

I have spend more in double side tape than in tweeters and at last they always sounds better at the kicks next to the woofers. Stage height is as high o higher than A pillar option. Not perfect, sometimes your legs or nicer ones gets on the way but is the best compromise...


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## LondonRS4 (Jul 16, 2009)

vactor said:


> also, we, people, are simply NOT good at determining where on a vertical plane sounds come from. that's why we don't have ears on the top of our head and on our chin. it's pretty much accepted that we do not localize vertical sound nearly as well as we do L and R.


That's why the best home audio speakers are in towers. I have Monitor Audio Gold Series RS6s. They are about 3 feet tall and I listen typically about 12 feet away from their center line. Only the tweeter height makes any difference to the localization, although with these speakers you have a lot of latitude. The mid and bass are way lower, as is the port, but you just can't tell that the sound is coming from anywhere other than ear level.


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

alphakenny1 said:


> Along with the poll, with those who voted i'd like to know why you chose what you chose. I'm still comtemplating on where to place the tweeter mainly. I heard vestax's car last week (the guy w/ lotus dual midbass) and the stage was quite low. I know it already a given that you will lose height with them in kicks anyways but if i do an a-pillar install you think it'd be hard to image and level match? right now i already made baffles for my lotus 4" and lotus 1". both sides are hooked up now and the stage is low, but i'm sure if i mess with it a bit i can heighten my stage a bit more. but just curious on other people's opinion.


Having played with those options for a long time, I find that keeping the tweeter as close to the midrange gives the best results. 

Call it manual time alignment between these two critical drivers. Even with good time alignment in your processing, I would imagine that placing your tweeters and midrange drivers far apart would cause them to reflect off of different area's of your car and react differently. 


I've mentioned this a lot in the past, but have you considered an ambient tweeter? Run your main tweet in the kick, and an ambient at 8k-10k on up just for lifting your stage? Seems like that would give you the best of both worlds.


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## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

demon2091tb said:


> Yea i'm glad i went with the Tweets pillar, Midrange kicks, and Midbasses in doors, i feel like the stage height is VERY high, and very expansive deep, and tonal accuracy is utterly amazing, more detail than i've ever heard.


X2.. Also varies with vehicle. This from my limited experience..


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## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

alphakenny1 said:


> very old thread.
> 
> i experimented some more and went with the mids and tweets in kicks!


Aimed at the dome light?


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## justfuz (Aug 28, 2008)

I've got a '98 Civic and am planning on putting the tweets in the factory location along with the Woofer in the stock door locations. I'm thinking about putting the midrange above the woofer, making some new door pods. I know I want to aim the midrange at the dome light but what about the woofer? Keep those straight or aim them at the dome light as well?


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## estione (Jul 24, 2009)

a lot of it does depend on what car, what speaker ( sealed dome open back?? )etc,etc, to many factor's to take into account,so i dont think that a two answer poll would help anybody trying to decide


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

x2. I can only answer from my experience with the particular drivers I have used (and am currently using) for my particular car.

I have an Acura TSX and have done some experimentation with a couple different setups:

- mids and tweets in kicks, midbass in enclosures on the doors. I just could not get the soundstage up high, no matter what angles I tried. Also, I didn't have much of a left stage because it is a narrow car, and the kickpanel juts out about 6" from the car's metal kickpanel.

- mids in kicks, tweets on dash, midbass IB in doors. I got some of the stage height I was after, but I wasn't happy with the midbass punch, even though they were 8's meant to be used IB and the doors were sealed and deadened. Still had the left stage issue mentioned above.

- mids in factory door locations (slim mounting depth ones, recessed slightly into door cavity to increase stage width, and angled up and back slightly so they are not as off-axis), midbass in sealed enclosures in the kickpanels, and tweets in the far corners of the dash, angled along the slope of the windshield (up and back a bit, probably meeting each other about rear view mirror height and about 1 foot in front of driver's ears so neither tweet is on-axis). This setup worked the best for me...high sound stage, wide sound stage (my left side is distinct) and punchy midbass which sounds like it is coming from inside the center of the dash - also nice because the PLD is minimized for the midbass which is critical.

* tweets AND mids on the dash is not a possibility for me due to space limitations

There probably is a better setup I'd be slightly happier with but I am plenty happy with this, and am not about to do a custom dash rebuild or anything like that.




estione said:


> a lot of it does depend on what car, what speaker ( sealed dome open back?? )etc,etc, to many factor's to take into account,so i dont think that a two answer poll would help anybody trying to decide


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Like so . . . all on dash 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/off-topic/60200-asian-audio.html


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## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

jsun_g said:


> x2. I can only answer from my experience with the particular drivers I have used (and am currently using) for my particular car.
> 
> I have an Acura TSX and have done some experimentation with a couple different setups:
> 
> ...



When you put your 8s in the (I/B) doors, did you use T/A? I was stunned at the difference correct delays made in my midbass application.. Also, the polarity of sub vs midbass, how was that set up? What XO frequency sub and midbass?

I am addressing midbass response (optimal) vocal imaging and stage height.

I have found that my sub section, cabin gain and a few other things did actually negate midbass impact. When I opened the car door, the midbass seemed potent, close the door and lose punch.. Reversing phase and changing crossover points and slopes changed all of that. 

I also noticed that with midbass up to 500HZ, when dialed (T/A) for optimal slam, I ended up with vocals that were off center.. I lowered the crossover point for my midbass down to 200HZ with a sharp cutoff of 24DBs. This also allowed me to lower my midbass LP to 63HZ (down from 80) and add a bit more power.

I then set my midrange up accordingly. Mids were from 200HZ to 4500/5500 (depending on tweeters as I experimented with quite a few) varied from 12 to 24 DB slopes on both ends for mids, same on the bottom for tweets..

I found that tweets sounded best in the sails or pillars, I didn't have a separate TA for tweets (alpine deck, used an active 2 way XO between the mids and tweets from the front output of the deck.) I optimized vocals with TA then messed with different angles for tweeters till I was able to make them blend where the left didnt sound closest to me. I had the right one pointing at my ear, left one off axis and aimed up..

BTW, I used 5.25s in the stock door location as mids, used quad 6.5s in enclosures to my immediate right and left.. Even with a passenger on the other side, I still had midbass kick and didn't seem to lose too much midbass response.. My stage was 3D like and it was about dash height with vocals sounding like they were coming out of my HU. Left tweeter was still a bit of a problem but I could live with it..

When riding solo, I was treated to an almost surround sound type soundstage. It sounded like I was IN the sound field as opposed to a seemingly flat 2 dimensional canvas laid out in front of me.

Another thing I want to point out. I was very limited with regard to my tuning options, no EQ other than what is in my deck which I didn't really use, TA for sub, midbass, and midrange only midrange/tweet combined with a 2 way active XO splitting the signal between mids and highs, was not able to delay tweeters separately. 

I played with many different drivers till I found a combo that worked for me with no EQ. It wouldnt have won any SQ awards, but it was the best system I had ever put together. The only reason that the midbass was able to be localized is because you felt the impact on your leg. Tweeter on the left was still a bit of a problem, but I bet a serious EQ with separate left and right channels would have cured that. 

Another thing. On most music, I would often drop my midbass LP down to 40HZ and pull my subs almost completely out of the mix, there for super low end reinforcement below 40HZ. Their absence noted only when completely disabled. The only time I would crank them hard is on HipHop and Bass Mekanik. For super hard loud impacting bass, I would set XO back up to 63HZ, midbass set back up to 63/80HZ and then I could get ridiculous. Subs could be heard well before I showed up..

This was my first system with SQ in mind, I was always the guy that loved loud bass with equal output from clean highs, I always let my subs handle midbass, but those were my SUV days. 

Then I tried the same stunt in a sedan and it wasn't working.. So luckily I found this site and hit a steep learning curve. I still wanted hella loud, but I wanted more than that. I wanted to understand what people were discussing here and apply it to my system.. It worked.. On on my way to perfecting my SQL.

Since then I have removed the system, sold much of what was in there, purchased much better drivers, waiting to get the DRZ9255 and a nice EQ with separate L/R channels and many knobs to tweak..

Really I'm still a noob, does any of this sound logical? My driver placement, lack of EQ and still a great sound?


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## mvw2 (Oct 2, 2005)

It all depends.

And holy old thread batman. I responded to this thing like 3 years ago.


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

When I put the 8's in the doors, I experimented with T/A and polarity switching of one of the midbass as well as switching sub polarity. I will say that the midbass sounded smooth and probably I could even have turned off the sub and run the midbass drivers all the way down for SQ judging but they just didn't have the punch I was able to get with 6.5" drivers in sealed enclosures in the kickpods. The challenge was to make the enclosures large enough without sacrificing much leg room.

I ended up settling on 70Hz @ 24dB for sub/midbass transition and only run the midbass to 150Hz @ 24dB, where the 5.25" mids take over. I felt that it sounded the best with the mids having as much content as they could handle, so things like male vocals come almost entirely from the mids. Another reason why I believe the mids didn't work well for me in the kicks (aside from being a narrow car and kicks jutting out) is because the dash on the driver's side partially obstructs kick-mounted speakers...I would have had to mount the mid at floor level and with that comes leg obstructions hampering driver and passenger enjoyment.

It sounds like you have done a great deal of experimentation and in the end it's whatever sounds best to you 




lust4sound said:


> When you put your 8s in the (I/B) doors, did you use T/A? I was stunned at the difference correct delays made in my midbass application.. Also, the polarity of sub vs midbass, how was that set up? What XO frequency sub and midbass?
> 
> I am addressing midbass response (optimal) vocal imaging and stage height.
> 
> ...


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## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

jsun_g said:


> When I put the 8's in the doors, I experimented with T/A and polarity switching of one of the midbass as well as switching sub polarity. I will say that the midbass sounded smooth and probably I could even have turned off the sub and run the midbass drivers all the way down for SQ judging but they just didn't have the punch I was able to get with 6.5" drivers in sealed enclosures in the kickpods. The challenge was to make the enclosures large enough without sacrificing much leg room.
> 
> I ended up settling on 70Hz @ 24dB for sub/midbass transition and only run the midbass to 150Hz @ 24dB, where the 5.25" mids take over. I felt that it sounded the best with the mids having as much content as they could handle, so things like male vocals come almost entirely from the mids. Another reason why I believe the mids didn't work well for me in the kicks (aside from being a narrow car and kicks jutting out) is because the dash on the driver's side partially obstructs kick-mounted speakers...I would have had to mount the mid at floor level and with that comes leg obstructions hampering driver and passenger enjoyment.
> 
> It sounds like you have done a great deal of experimentation and in the end it's whatever sounds best to you


Cool, so what I discovered during my experimentation is a method shared by others, works then? Not taking credit for it, just that I feel so empowered in knowing that I am onto the correct path for SQ!!


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## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

Now I can't wait to get the system back into a vehicle so that I can know for sure which mode actually works.. (RTA will tell) In one mode, the sub disappears, I'm wondering if this is cancellation or true blending?


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## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

While we are on the Does TA work with highs above 4.5KHZ? (Tweets specifically.) Above a certain frequency, TA seems to do nothing to help space tweeters. It helps keep vocals centered by not skewing mids, but I still have a problem with left tweeter sounding too close. I have found that aiming it away while the right one is aimed at me works best. 

Will separate L/R EQing of highs help by way of muting certain left side frequencies? Not muting but EQing enough to make the difference without skewing response on RTA?

I'm trying to figure this out before I go spending big cash on the DRZ9255 specifically for its true 8 channel TA ability. (among it's many other benefits) True, it is an amazing SQ deck, but there are others that have similar SQ without the hopeless search for hidden treasure at such steep price tag. A few Alpine pieces come to mind as do Eclipse.. But then there is the cost of an additional processor which combined with a good SQ deck would probably surpass the DRZ in price, not to mention the sreach for good deals on 2 items as opposed to one... Maybe I'll just continue my search for the DRZ..

I just thread dumped, sorry.. It is sort of relevant though is it not?


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## jsun_g (Jun 12, 2008)

Others have mentioned that when you get into the tweet/treble area, it is mainly a function of minimizing the difference in amplitude between the left and right tweeter to get the right sound...TA is less of a concern.
If you have separate left/right EQ capability, that would help in you equal out the tweeter levels in the driver seat position. You could also experiment with putting a power resistor inline with the driver's side tweeter (say a 2 ohm power resistor for example).
Separate L/R eq'ing overall is a good thing. I have found that the left vs. right response is quite different in my car/setup and I needed that eq'ability.

I am not familiar with the latest and greatest in high priced SQ decks, but I did get a good deal from another member on DIYMA on an Alpine HU that has 6-channel TA, EQ, and 2 or 3-way xover. I am satisfied with it, especially for the price, since it fills my needs.




lust4sound said:


> While we are on the Does TA work with highs above 4.5KHZ? (Tweets specifically.) Above a certain frequency, TA seems to do nothing to help space tweeters. It helps keep vocals centered by not skewing mids, but I still have a problem with left tweeter sounding too close. I have found that aiming it away while the right one is aimed at me works best.
> 
> Will separate L/R EQing of highs help by way of muting certain left side frequencies? Not muting but EQing enough to make the difference without skewing response on RTA?
> 
> ...


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## splicer (Oct 4, 2008)

I have tweets in the kicks and it is a mistake. My knees block the treble so you can hear the sound change when I shift gears or even just move my legs around. Maybe not such a big deal if you are short or have a tall car.


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## SpecV (Mar 26, 2009)

I voted simply on what I have heard in the past. nothing like having a set of tweets on axis mounted on the pillar.


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## Jim85IROC (Jun 8, 2005)

I have very little experience with modern systems that utilize tweeters up high. Back when I was really into this (mid 90s), everything that I listened to with tweeters up high was terrible, but I'm sure it's come a long way. Since the stock tweeter location in my Grand prix is terrible (they aim toward the dash, not toward the listener), and I have no kick panels at all in the car, now might be a good time to start experimenting!

But... on to my point. In most of my cars I've utilized the kick panel locations for tweeters, or for 2 way component sets. I've spent a lot of time working on kicks in my Camaro, and I'm now quite fond of how my car stages. In particular I wanted to comment on legs & knees blocking the tweeter. It's clearly audible when I move my leg. My highs become attenuated to some extent when my leg moves, but at least in my case, I have not found that it has much impact on my soundstage. There is so much reflection in a car environment that I really feel that only a small percentage of what I hear is being directly radiated by the driver, so in those cases where I block the tweeter, though I do find it to be noticably attenuated, its overall sound quality and soundstage is still far better than what I've experienced with the tweeters in other locations.

But... now I'm anxious to try using another set of smaller attenuated tweeters up higher to see what effect they may have.

The biggest obstacle that I've encountered with my kick panel locations is the bloated midbass from stuffing a 6.5" midwoofer into a super tiny enclosure. I'm using a low Q woofer to help counter this, but it's still very audible. Rather than try to correct this with equalization, if I ever get time, I want to build a passive low Q notch filter to address the specific region.


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## Rare177 (Sep 7, 2009)

personally, i like the mids and tweeters high together and the midbass in the doors, i find it much easier to tune like this, be aware though, up high you have alot of hard areas compared to down low, like glass etc, this can result in comb filters which can make even the nicest tweeters sound quite harsh, i try my hardest to avoid this, and placing a soft surface down on the dash can help too, try with a towel and see if it makes a difference


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## 2gemini (Aug 30, 2009)

I have my tweets on the dash and pointed up at the same angle as the windshield. Sounds pretty good to me and it's hard to localize where the highs are coming from.


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## stereo_luver (Oct 30, 2007)

2gemini said:


> I have my tweets on the dash and pointed up at the same angle as the windshield. Sounds pretty good to me and it's hard to localize where the highs are coming from.


This is exactly what I am experimenting with now. I have my tweets in pods (temp pods made from PVC cut on a 45 degree angle) in the corners of my dash pointing across the dash towards the oposite headrests. I have mids in the stock dash location pointing up on the windshield. For some reason this is working pretty good so far. Tweets are only temp mounted with velcro so I can adjust the axis. I've been toying with this for 2 weeks now. Unfortunately I don't have a TRUE 3 way XO for the front stage. Using the 880PRS' active XO I have the mids in the stock door locations XO'd down to around 60hz and up to 1.2khz since this is the lowest the 880's XO points are. Then using the Hertz HSK-165 XO's I have run the tweeter lead from my amp into the XO using the woofer output for the midranges in the dash and the tweeter outputs for the tweeters n the dash. With the tweeters and the midranges close together I still have pretty good control on the TA. BUT, I'm still working on all this and looking for help.

Edit: I really like the 880's features but am now looking into another active XO processor for a 3-way front stage. Something like the 3sixty.2? suggestions?


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## iregret (Jul 27, 2009)

I like 3-ways.


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## bboyvek (Dec 16, 2008)

i like 3somes


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## jhmeg2 (Nov 6, 2009)

lust4sound said:


> While we are on the Does TA work with highs above 4.5KHZ? (Tweets specifically.) Above a certain frequency, TA seems to do nothing to help space tweeters. It helps keep vocals centered by not skewing mids, but I still have a problem with left tweeter sounding too close. I have found that aiming it away while the right one is aimed at me works best.
> 
> Will separate L/R EQing of highs help by way of muting certain left side frequencies? Not muting but EQing enough to make the difference without skewing response on RTA?
> 
> ...


if you are getting the feeling that your left tweet is to close to you, try attinuating just that tweet to say, -3db and leave the right tweet at 0. I have my midbass in the door, the midrange and tweet (titanium tweet) in the kick, and a silk dome tweet in the dash. I use 6.5" mid bass and mid range, 1" tweets and a single 8" sub. in a trailblazer. however I also use an Alpine PXA-H701.


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## pusko (Sep 17, 2009)

This is how it looks in my car:

http://www.shrani.si/f/D/WV/3IB16YVt/3-way-scandinavia.jpg
http://www.shrani.si/f/1B/13Z/1zlaJ8Yn/3-way-scandinavia-2.jpg


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## ChicoOG (Nov 27, 2007)

I started with mids and tweets in the kicks. Although we were able to get the stage relatively high, there seemed to be a rainbow effect. I run a number of Zapco DC amps and a lot of tuning time was spent.

This time around, mid is in kick, tweets on the dash....really no comparison. As mentioned above though, I've heard cars that sound great with tweets in the kicks and others, not so much...before hardwiring tape them into a few places to see what sounds best.


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## gitmobass (Nov 7, 2009)

I voted tweet in the A and mid in the kick, but I personally would put both in the A pillar If I possibly could.


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## lucas569 (Apr 17, 2007)

gitmobass said:


> I voted tweet in the A and mid in the kick, but I personally would put both in the A pillar If I possibly could.



thats what im trying to decide now, guess im going to have to experiment with the sound... it just sucks cause you cant drive around long term to make a true decision... 

damn this holy grail of sound im after!


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## SMPing (Dec 6, 2009)

I'm currently on 2-way front with customised passive set-up. The tweeter were installed on dashboard off-axis and woofer on door panel. I get very good soundstage, at eye level, wide enough and with noticeable depth.

If I going 3-way, I will put the mid at kick-panel. I find this type of placement work best for my case.


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## RMF419 (Feb 13, 2008)

I have my tweets in the A-pillar the midrange in the sails right of and a few inches below the tweeter. The midbase is in the door. Here is an old picture of the setup. I have since added all new speakers still look the same, except for the tweeter, I have added a half circle shim made out of cardboard to aim the passagner tweet at the driver, and the drivers at the passagner. http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/RMF419/Mods/PICT4140.jpg


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## betterbelizeit (Oct 4, 2009)

As much as we may hate to sacrifice SQ, we need to be practical as well. I've had one or two people on this site slam me for having my tweets in the a-pillars but what they failed to recognize is that good tweeters aren't cheap and with sand, dirt, wet shoes from rain and whatever else you drag into your car, you'd want it far away from your tweeters. Point is...if your tweets/mids are affordable to replace, put them anywhere that your car's acoustics will offer you the best SQ results. If it's going to hurt the bank account to replace a tweeter mounted in the kick panel because you or your buddy kicked it by accident, then have it installed in the a-pillars. Just food for thought!


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## cheesybass (Aug 17, 2010)

Good luck timing and tuning


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## RMF419 (Feb 13, 2008)

Mid/tweet at a-pillar, midbass in door, because thats the way I did it.


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## s4turn (Jun 17, 2009)

im about to change my front setup again, but will be installing the mid and tweeters up in the pillars, or sails

whatever sounds the best


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

Tweeters and 3" mids > a pillars

6.5" Midbass > doors ( I would like to have the space to have midbass in kickpanels)

.


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## RattyMcClelland (Nov 28, 2008)

So how do you guys do 3way for a 2 seat setup.

I have my midbass in the kicks and that means mids and tweets in the pillars. But id imagine that the mids and tweets being closer to me would mean a 2 seat setup would work well and iv have to do TA to make it a single seater.


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

RattyMcClelland said:


> I have my midbass in the kicks and that means mids and tweets in the pillars.


That is my plan!


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## sqcomp (Sep 21, 2009)

^D knows I'm there too!


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

I use em in the A-pillars and down in the doors.


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## Stearnzy (Jan 18, 2011)

well my first question would be what type of car, so many variables can make either one sound good, high or low center console, angle of your windshield and depth of your dash, foot room, factory foot e-brake but after that my personal preference in my cars is mids in the door or floor and tweets on the dash 4 or 3" dash up there too if possible


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## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

mvw2 said:


> I find placement has a lot to do with what tuning features you have. If you don't have TA, you're stuck leaving the tweeters by the woofer unless you can find a place equal-distant as the woofer. You may even need to go active to allow independent driver control of attentuation and TA to get everything to dial in together.
> 
> Optimum is always a single left and single rigth point sorce. You define the width and height by placement and aim. When you step away from this single point source idealology, you need to start compensating for things. If you don't have the tuning power, you limit workable options.


That is absolute Gospel with regard to critical listening setups.. But to further delve into the relevance of processing and less than ideal distances between r and l drivers with their negative affects, (especially with impact of kick drums and centered vocals) In autosound it is almost impossible to overcome the physical limitations of the vehicles interior for proper placement of left and right drivers which brings me to this..

In my home, I can sit right in the center of my living room and enjoy spectacular staging from single point/full range drivers, one on each side with maybe some bottom end reinforcement from a separate sub playing 40HZ and down (the separate sub which can be placed anywhere in the room with closer being better concerning issues with delay that phase reversal wont help)

Anyway, for my car, I came across an Alpine CDA9853 which was thrown in as part of a deal with a JL 12W7 and some other equipment. This stepped my learning curve up exponentially..I now know the benefits of full active with TA and incrementally adjustable XO slopes/points, I also learned about the creation of imaging through subtle variations in R/L EQing (creating illusion of right to left panning through varied eqing, more on that later*) Implementing this level of processing also helped in that it further illustrated the need for proper driver placement, for once I discovered for myself what proper imaging in a car audio environment actually is, it also helped in the realization that it all ideally begins with proper placement of drivers.. 

(*the demo in my desktop PC's sound card.. With only a right and left speaker, my computers sound card produces an effect which simulates a bee buzzing around your head in a 360' circle.. How is that I wondered? Then I realized that it is achieved through subtle changes in right to left to right eqing, all of which is to create an illusion of being circled by a bee. I found that this can be applied as an assist to car audio imaging where less than ideal tweeter placement may be optimized by EQing the left slightly different than the right, creating the illusion of distance or centering by slightly muting certain frequencies on the left side rather than lowering its output as a whole or implementing TA which I found to be noneffective over lets say 5KHZ? Not sure where, but I found that my tweeters seemed unaffected by delay as they were set from 4.5KHZ and above) In short, where my tweeters seemed unaffected by T/A (left one always seemed to beam) a little bit of muting on the left side tweet seemed to give it the depth it needed to seem equally distanced. You will need an EQ with separate right and left controls of course..



Edit: Whoa, sorry for the Uber Babble...


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## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

That first clueless line about Gospel and less than ideal placement of drivers is a real doozy.... 

Class is in session, professor clueless will speak now.. 

Man, I am so embarrassed, I'm not sure which of my multiple personalities prevailed on this one but it sure is a whopper!!

Pay no mind to the idiot that posted his first time experiences in the form of incoherent babble in the advanced section here in Diyma.. As you may have already figured it out by now, he is not allowed out of the house very often.. 

I just read through the entire thread (which I probably should have done before I exposed my bare ass the way I did with the rambling farce posted above this) and I must apologize for polluting this thread with such ignorant arrogance.... Please disregard and carry on..


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## n_olympios (Oct 23, 2008)

It's not your tweeters that are unaffected by TA, it's your brain. High frequencies have very short soundwaves and the human mind cannot decipher such short changes in time coherence, it uses mostly amplitude for that part of the spectrum. Low and mid frequencies however, that's another thing altogether.


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## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

n_olympios said:


> It's not your tweeters that are unaffected by TA, it's your brain. High frequencies have very short soundwaves and the human mind cannot decipher such short changes in time coherence, it uses mostly amplitude for that part of the spectrum. Low and mid frequencies however, that's another thing altogether.



A lot of what I babbled on about was what I thought to be truth from my personal experiences, whether there was merit to any of it or not, I went on about it all wrong.. First off, this is a Poll and not a tutorial, not only that, I made a fool of myself by explaining my experiences in a way that seemed as if I was giving a tutorial.. 

In a poll regarding placement, I tutored the industry vets on something they probably wrote the book on? That's the part I would retract if I could.

Brain best perceives amplitude vs timing in the upper octaves.. Perhaps that is why the upper octave detail seems to clutter when I dial in delay on the tweets.. 

So the bit about eqing slightly different from left to right on tweets, although it may have its merits it is perhaps more of a bandaide? Best to place tweeters equal distance or play with off axis mounting for best alignment (left side tweeter) with eqing as a secondary measure 

Getting carried away again, I'll look for the tutorials regarding this matter and carry on there..

Thanks for the info!


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## n_olympios (Oct 23, 2008)

You're too harsh on yourself. The fact that you're trying to find the end of it is proof that you're on the right path.


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## lust4sound (Apr 9, 2008)

n_olympios said:


> You're too harsh on yourself. The fact that you're trying to find the end of it is proof that you're on the right path.


Not being harsh, just reprimanding myself for the seemingly arrogant entries to this thread.. Carelessness led to embarrassment.. I'm over it now and thanks, I am learning!!


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## blueatlanta (Feb 10, 2011)

i wanna put the mids in my a pillar while putting the tweets in the kicks.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

blueatlanta said:


> i wanna put the mids in my a pillar while putting the tweets in the kicks.


That doesn't sound like a very good idea. If anything, reverse those speaker positions.


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## yong_ly07 (Jan 12, 2009)

How about all in the doors? I will be doing a 3 way set up, woofer bottom, mid middle, tweeter top, kind of like a book shelf speaker aiming right at you, simple design on a flat door panel.


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

yong_ly07 said:


> How about all in the doors? I will be doing a 3 way set up, woofer bottom, mid middle, tweeter top, kind of like a book shelf speaker aiming right at you, simple design on a flat door panel.


I guess the stage would be too close, in other words you'll be in the middle of the stage LOL and Mids would need it's own chamber though!

.


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## EclipseChris (Apr 20, 2011)

I dunno if it has been said before but i have always had great experiences with the tweets up top, or bouncing off the inside of the windshield. The low freqs get messed up bouncing off the glass.


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## splaudiohz (Apr 1, 2011)

Always thought the rule of thumb was to keep mid and tweet together. I used a laser pointer and aimed my kicks to my focal points. Set my stage beautifully. If you close your eyes you would thing speakers are in the dash............hood, side mirrors, etc...


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## MHLY01 (Dec 15, 2005)

Tweet up high, mids in kick


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

tried to make tweets up high work- could not do it running passive- the reduction settings needed for blending with mids introduced distortion from the crossover that was noticeable- despite really nice comps. 

i wound up putting them on the doors just above the midbass drivers (within 8" center to center to avoid phase distortion). they are mounted in their surface mounted cups and angled to fire at the opposite headrest. sounds quite nice vs. the upper tweet locations. 

running active offers much more flexibility for tweeter locations but not something i am going to entertain- i'm happy as it is running focal 165 v30s.


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## Mooresound (Jan 17, 2012)

I couldnt vote! I have the tweets in the sail but mid and midbass on the door. just invert the tweets phase and your gold. plus a little T/A of course.


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## Pitmaster (Feb 16, 2010)

Db atten. along with t/a works well


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## Qken84 (Aug 25, 2011)

Well here is how i have my setup. I am running the PPi powerclass 3 way comp set. but i replaced the midbass with image dynamics 2ohm model cx 6 1/2. the midbass is in the door. and the midrange and tweeter are in the bottom of the A pillar aiming inbetween the driver and passenger seat. I am running my whole system active with a JBL GTE422 22 band EQ and JBL GTX47 4 way active crossover. my sub is a single 10 inch clarion...for now. my amps are two eclipse EA3422 4 channels.


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## abdulwq (Aug 17, 2008)

havent yet tried in kicks but mine sound sweeter in the A,s


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## Qken84 (Aug 25, 2011)

i dont think that there is a right or wrong way to mount your speakers weather it be a 3 way or 2 way etc.... everyones hearing is different and has there own opinion of what does and dont sound good. car audio is all about personal preference to me.  car audio is the SHAT! lol


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## edouble101 (Dec 9, 2010)

I will NEVER run my mids and tweets in the kick. No room since I use an 8" midbass driver in the kicks (I will not run my midbass in the doors either) and will never use a smaller sized midbass than that.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

So long as you have TA and want a one-seat car, a 3-way in the door with the tweeters in the sail panels and the mids as far up as you can get them works great.


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## Dillyyo (Feb 15, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So long as you have TA and want a one-seat car, a 3-way in the door with the tweeters in the sail panels and the mids as far up as you can get them works great.


Andy...this configuration is exactly what I'm using now and I agree with you. My only issue is that my 3" dome is essentially about 1/2 or more covered by the door panel and the other half exposed to the midrange perforations in the door panel. I'd like to get the speaker from behind the door panels and less obstructed. The only place that leaves me is in the OEM kicks, off axis. 

What issues (hardest to resolve) have you run into running mids in the kicks and tweeters in the sails? I'm going to test this config out and test it, but just picking your brain here.


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

Dillyyo said:


> Andy...this configuration is exactly what I'm using now and I agree with you. My only issue is that my 3" dome is essentially about 1/2 or more covered by the door panel and the other half exposed to the midrange perforations in the door panel. I'd like to get the speaker from behind the door panels and less obstructed. The only place that leaves me is in the OEM kicks, off axis.
> 
> What issues (hardest to resolve) have you run into running mids in the kicks and tweeters in the sails? I'm going to test this config out and test it, but just picking your brain here.


*For me works perfect, *the down side is when you are trying to Demo your system to a guy who is 1 foot taller than you and his ears are way off from the sweet spot, 
also consider big feet+leg *blocking the direct path from left Mid to left ear* will create a different stage than the one you hear at your sweet spot.

Besides that, trying to deal with reflections from hard plastic panels and windows has been the hardest. 

.


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## GlassWolf (May 8, 2010)

I chose kick panels because that's where mine are, and I dislike the use of A-pillars for speakers. kick panels give you more signal path length, and a less disparate length between left and right channels, requiring less digital tweaking to even them out. It also helps to avoid issues with beaming, and point sourcing by having the speakers too close to the listener's ear on one side or the other.

there's some more detail in an article of mine here:
GlassWolf's Pages

granted I don't have any issue with foot or leg room in my car, as you can see by my avatar, so blocking the speaker signal path isn't really a concern.


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## REGULARCAB (Sep 26, 2013)




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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> So long as you have TA and want a one-seat car, a 3-way in the door with the tweeters in the sail panels and the mids as far up as you can get them works great.


How about a multi seat car?


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

edouble101 said:


> I will NEVER run my mids and tweets in the kick. No room since I use an 8" midbass driver in the kicks (I will not run my midbass in the doors either) and will never use a smaller sized midbass than that.


Imo kickpanels are not ideal for midbass, not enough chamber behind them. Doors are far more ideal.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

WRX/Z28 said:


> Imo kickpanels are not ideal for midbass, not enough chamber behind them. Doors are far more ideal.


Depends on the car though . Most people also fail to realize that the kick panels often open down the sill plate and up the A-pillar, and both of those usually connected to airspace in other body parts. I actually sealed the top of my A-pillars and half way down the sill because of this. I wanted sealed and less volume so I could use more power. I have 8" midbass and over .3 cu ft of volume (estimated).


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## derickveliz (May 15, 2009)

*And the speaker... like some are Free Air (IB) and some are for a sealed box.*

D.


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

where is option c- grab a towel- power em up and try em?


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## lv_v (Aug 24, 2005)

I was lost at 3-way poll with only 2-way options. Nobody else catch that?


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## WRX/Z28 (Feb 21, 2008)

lv_v said:


> I was lost at 3-way poll with only 2-way options. Nobody else catch that?


It assumed midbass would only go in the door...


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## rideon22 (Dec 4, 2011)

Guess I'm still old school with going the kick panel route...


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## jb4674 (Jan 29, 2015)

Personally, the biggest problem I see with doing any type of 3-way setup in a car that isn't designed with such a setup from the factory is the fabrication aspect of it. 

For someone who doesn't have the necessary tools/resources to fabricate pods into the A-pillars, this becomes a nearly impossible task. Let's not forget that shops will charge the customer an arm and a leg to build something like this.

Why someone hasn't come up with a service where they manufacture A-pillar covers with built-in pods for 3", 4" and a tweeter, is beyond me. I'm pretty sure there would be people willing to pay for a custom made A-pillar cover for their vehicle that accomplishes two things:

1. Matches the interior of the vehicle
2. Allows the customer to add either a 3" or 4" to the A-Pillar in addition to a tweeter in the same A-Pillar or without it as well (keeping the stock tweeter location in use).


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And you think that would be cheap?

I wouldn't think a company would want to take on something like that due to the liability involved with side curtain air bags and such.


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## randyzbelleh (May 2, 2016)

Bsams said:


> 2003 Tacoma, xt25s in kicks and mids in doors. no processing or time alignment, passive xovers, and everyone that listens thinks my tweets are up in stock locations on top of the door panels. imaging is perfect. always experiment with locations, i just use double stick tape and long wires and listen listen and listen some more. every vehicle has its own optimum location its up to u to find them. sorry for the rant


Hey man, could you PM me a couple pics of your setup? I have a 4th gen 4runner (pretty much the same I believe) and would love to see how everything is set up! Thanks a ton for your time!

The $h!π winds are blowing


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