# Scoring at Comps



## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

Just wondering why score sheets are kept private for comps? 

I can't think of a single sporting event where an individual judge's score sheet, is not published after an event. 

Just curious.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I get why you're asking. And I don't think it's a bad idea. I'm not sure there's much point though. Unless you have a chance to listen to the cars whose score sheet you're viewing. 

Think about it like this: in sports you see your competitors' performance. You run track?... your competitor is running with you. You play basketball? You can see your competitor driving past you with your own two eyes. You compete in a sport that's more subjective like gymnastics?... you're on the floor at the same time (or you can watch the tape later if you're at another event). Bottom line is: You can assess their performance as easily as they can yours. With car audio competition, you're not able to make a comparison assessment unless you sit in their car.


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## SoundQ SVT (Aug 14, 2013)

At most local car shows, the score sheets are not handed out to the entrants. Heck, they usually don't even announce the scores. Just the placements.

For the SQ side of car audio events, the competitors receive their score sheets. At larger events the judges may wait until after the awards to maintain some suspense in the proceedings.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Unless it was done completely electronically, no one is going to want to key in all that data.

Having said that, I do think they should be open as well. Mostly from a transparency point of view, because some competitors are also judges, and therefore they do get to see others scores so to be completely transparent everyone should. 

However I think for others seeing who judged would be more telling. For meca 3x events, show the scores that made up the average and who gave them that score.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

pocket5s said:


> Having said that, I do think they should be open as well. Mostly from a transparency point of view, because some competitors are also judges, and therefore they do get to see others scores so to be completely transparent everyone should.


I don't think ANY organization should allow judges to physically be judged(I dont think MECA allows it).
They should have to take last place points in their class no matter what it is.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

chefhow said:


> I don't think ANY organization should allow judges to physically be judged(I dont think MECA allows it).
> They should have to take last place points in their class no matter what it is.


I don't mean at the same show. I've been judged by people who are competitors, but didn't compete at the event they were judging.


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## aholland1198 (Oct 7, 2009)

It's not nice to judge people. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

In the past many top competitors did not want any rumors about their systems made public. By making the individual scores public from each section of the scoresheet would give their competitors and judges some idea of what advantage or disadvantage they have against their competitors. Like one competitor that gets an low score in tonality that was made public might influence other judges and competitors to think "that competitor's system has bad tonality" when in fact it was an scoring abnormality related to that one event. Competitors don't like negative information getting out about their systems and don't like giving away their secrets that give them an advantage over their competitors.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

cmusic said:


> In the past


yea... I get that based on what I've heard about "back in the day". but things have changed a lot since those days. case in point: you can get a demo in about 90% of the cars competing at finals (as long as it's not bad timing with a judge about to get in or the like).


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

ErinH said:


> yea... I get that based on what I've heard about "back in the day". but things have changed a lot since those days. case in point: you can get a demo in about 90% of the cars competing at finals (as long as it's not bad timing with a judge about to get in or the like).


to add to that, the community is fairly small now unlike it was back then. For anyone competing more than a couple years they are probably 1 or 2 degrees separated from most of the others, and many people share scoresheet results with friends and such so if someone were diligent enough they could probably find out what some else was scoring without a whole lot of effort. 

I would also opine that back in the day comps were, in a very large part, won by install and that was where most of the secrets were. If you knew exactly what items a competitor was being given creativity points on (it was uncapped at one point), you could 'borrow' those ideas more easily than you could tuning information. hell you might not even have been aware that you already had the some thing in your install but because you didn't offer it to the judge like someone else did, you didn't get the points for it.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

I get the point of keeping score sheets private, due to not being able to listen to that vehicle, it makes complete sense, or for the holder to keep and share it with someone who asks if the holder wishes to show it to others like some do.

I'm not a fan of announcers, saying the score, specially if it is low, even if making podium.
Name, category and place is enough.

And What they could do instead is, make a list of the winners, for competitors to see at the end, on the table, and see the scores, maybe no need to have categories listed, just name top score all the way down, competitors will know who they are, or their names.

After all they all can be seen at the website a couple of days later with more details.

Another suggestion 
Perhaps the announcer can mention the strength and weakness for each one, quickly, no points or details, that way, that way a loosing competitor at least can get an idea of the where the competitor scored the most points, and the score below can work towards that area on the next event.
Even though they are always told the weakness by the judges, it is good to know the competition strengths and weakness. Just a thought to be more competitive the next time.


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

I know the competition community is much smaller and more open than 2-30 years ago. It had to become that way to stay alive. I can remember going to many shows in the early '90s where you would have national competitors come to local shows just to get points. (And those local single point shows would pull in 75-100+ competitors.) They would trailer their vehicles in in box trailers, back them out of the trailer for judging, and back into the trailer and the doors shut just so they could try to keep their edge. Everything was a secret. I remember asking several top competitors at that time how something was installed or tuned, and getting deliberately lied to so they could keep their "secrets". I remember many new competitors getting turned off by that and just quit competing all together. 

I can also remember some well known competitors, two come to mind that are still in the industry today, that essentially banned me from listening to their cars. One even told me after asking for about two years that he would never allow me to listen to his system. 

At the 2003 IASCA finals they had the first true international sound only competition. 26 systems were judged from judging teams from England, Ireland, France, South Africa, Japan, and several other countries. I was thankful to finish 7th overall in this competition. Afterwards all the competitors got a Excel spreadsheet with every judge's score for every competitor. I got great scores from every judging team except for France. If the France scores had been thrown out, I would have maybe finished in the top 3 or 4. However there were some competitors that did not like their scores being made public. I guess it embarrassed them that "lesser" systems were better than them.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

cmusic said:


> At the 2003 IASCA finals they had the first true international sound only competition. 26 systems were judged from judging teams from England, Ireland, France, South Africa, Japan, and several other countries. I was thankful to finish 7th overall in this competition. Afterwards all the competitors got a Excel spreadsheet with every judge's score for every competitor. I got great scores from every judging team except for France. If the France scores had been thrown out, I would have maybe finished in the top 3 or 4. However there were some competitors that did not like their scores being made public. I guess it embarrassed them that "lesser" systems were better than them.


the 1st ISQC was so awesome!!!! I loved that event. It was an enlightening experience for many and I believe that some known competitors may have been "exposed' so to speak b/c their name carried no real weight with the international team who had no idea who they were. 
at the same time, I know of a couple REALLY well known competitors who's name may have helped them bc of their reputation.

I was happy to have finished 3rd with the Japan team.  but didnt do so well with the south american team bc my car didnt play loud enough .


as far as the original topic of score sheets being made public...i'm not sure what the point would be.
yes it may be possible to infer some idea of what the car may sound like if you know the exact judge and his/her preferences and tendencies in scores, but as Erin said--unless you are there that day and hear the car with the same tune that is being used for judging then the score is meaningless.

I still believe some competitors give others **** tunes for demos or at least change presets. some change presets based on the judge and have different tunes for the judge
at multiformat events, there are many who still do separate tunes for iasca and Meca.
and there are some who say they do something but dont really do anything different at all.

at most local shows that do not do electronic scoring, scoresheets are handed out after trophies and the majority of competitors all share scores with their friends and compare. this has been happening since the late 90s til today


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

If a judge is doing their job, and scoring per the book, a competitor will have NO advantage by seeing or hearing another car, as other cars make no impact to that judge's scoring. 

Either way, I am a part of the competitive community to learn from others and enjoy the camaraderie I have with fellow competitors and judges, however, it appears that tradition of not sharing scores is a strong one. 

Again, if someone can think of a competition or an event where scores are not shared, let me know.


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## OldNewb (Sep 30, 2016)

Are classes scored different? Meaning is a stock car judged on the same aspects of a expert level car?


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

OldNewb said:


> Are classes scored different? Meaning is a stock car judged on the same aspects of a expert level car?


they are scored the same, with regards to the sound portion.


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## OldNewb (Sep 30, 2016)

Ok. I'm looking into competing next year. By what I understood I'll be in modified. Are you saying my car is expected to sound as good as a fully built, possibly center seat, 12v pro car? Or it just won't score as high?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

OldNewb said:


> Ok. I'm looking into competing next year. By what I understood I'll be in modified. Are you saying my car is expected to sound as good as a fully built, possibly center seat, 12v pro car? Or it just won't score as high?


just most likely wont score as high. all cars are scored on the same criteria with the same amount of "nit pickyness" so its most likely that a higher class car is going to score better because they have more options in terms of install and equipment


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## OldNewb (Sep 30, 2016)

Ok thanks. That does make sense, there has to be a standard if done right


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## OldNewb (Sep 30, 2016)

Btw that's a redicules amount of power you have. I thought I had overkill


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

SkizeR said:


> just most likely wont score as high. all cars are scored on the same criteria with the same amount of "nit pickyness" so its most likely that a higher class car is going to score better because they have more options in terms of install and equipment


Correct, all systems are scored the same to the rulebook but are divided up into classes of similar build type. 

However I have sometimes seen lower class competitors score better than upper class competitors simply because their system sounds better. Having a more elaborate install in a higher class does not automatically mean that your system will sound better.


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## OldNewb (Sep 30, 2016)

I could see that also. Sometime the more elaborate you get the move chances for error


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

That happens, a lot, lower class cars scoring more points than some in an upper class.

Many times I have wondered, if judges know a bit what they are judging, like systems brands models etc, like amps, processors and speakers. Knowing that it may influence the way they judge or grade a system, although it should not, and most likely not, sometimes it may make a difference


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## OldNewb (Sep 30, 2016)

Even though we may not want to be or think we are, every person is bias to something.


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

pocket5s said:


> they are scored the same, with regards to the sound portion.


They are SUPPOSE to be, but I know of a very well known judge in an organization who actually told myself and some others that cars in certain classes can never score higher than X b/c they could not modify their vehicles to accommodate the system. 
He then used a friends vehicle as an example and a "good vehicle to start judging" but to remember that bc he was in X class he cant score higher than X

he also went on to say that he didnt use some of the required judging tracks b/c he didnt like the track personally


fortunately these types are fewer and far between these days....but this was still only 5 years ago

In short--regardless of sound or install. the judge should be scoring against the rulebook. sound should be scored against a reference system, which cannot and should not ever be another vehicle. Install must be scored against the rulebook. 
Its really that simple--this is what I hear or perceive and based on that the book book says it scores this amount of points. record the score and move on.
any judge that every used language like "well I would like to have more of or less of..." is judging to a preference not a reference


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

cmusic said:


> Correct, all systems are scored the same to the rulebook but are divided up into classes of similar build type.
> 
> 
> 
> However I have sometimes seen lower class competitors score better than upper class competitors simply because their system sounds better. Having a more elaborate install in a higher class does not automatically mean that your system will sound better.




It also needs to be noted that at some events there are multiple judges for different classes. This is especially true for iasca at finals. 

Yes in theory every judge would score the same car the same way, thus all scores would be relative, but it just isn't the case. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

What about height? Im 6'4" so when I tune. Its a different soundstage for me when I lower my head a few inches where other people would be. 

How does one account for judge height

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Jscoyne2 said:


> What about height? Im 6'4" so when I tune. Its a different soundstage for me when I lower my head a few inches where other people would be.
> 
> How does one account for judge height
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


booster seat or some old phone books


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## Jscoyne2 (Oct 29, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> booster seat or some old phone books


Lol seriously? 

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


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## Hammer1 (Jan 30, 2011)

Jscoyne2 said:


> What about height? Im 6'4" so when I tune. Its a different soundstage for me when I lower my head a few inches where other people would be.
> 
> How does one account for judge height
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


I have a different tune for each judge. You would need a tune for a shorter person. Over time I have figured out what judge likes what and have a different tune for each


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## Onyx1136 (Mar 15, 2009)

Jscoyne2 said:


> What about height? Im 6'4" so when I tune. Its a different soundstage for me when I lower my head a few inches where other people would be.
> 
> How does one account for judge height


I'm the same height. Makes things challenging. Few years ago I had the idea to mount the tweet and mid on a power mirror actuator motor so that I could adjust them for judges of different heights. I even thought about building a laser pointer into the pod so I could see exactly where they were being aimed. 

About 3 days into the build I realized I had power seats and I could just raise the seat up for shorter judges. Sometimes I think about trying that again, but then I remember how much that build was turning into a pain in the ass and I'm suddenly happy with what I have again.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Jscoyne2 said:


> Lol seriously?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk



Absolutely serious. I'm aware of one shorter judge with a fully upholstered booster seat.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

I have seen those booster seats being used, some people really need them, I can lower my driver's car seat about 3" and it makes a huge difference.

I have also seen some car owners reclining the seat back, in a non driving position, making the listening position more adaptable to most heights, torsos or even long necks, like some may also have, would be my guess.


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## cmusic (Nov 16, 2006)

Mic10is said:


> They are SUPPOSE to be, but I know of a very well known judge in an organization who actually told myself and some others that cars in certain classes can never score higher than X b/c they could not modify their vehicles to accommodate the system.
> He then used a friends vehicle as an example and a "good vehicle to start judging" but to remember that bc he was in X class he cant score higher than X
> 
> he also went on to say that he didnt use some of the required judging tracks b/c he didnt like the track personally
> ...


I've ran across judges like that. I've had judges ask me what equipment I have in my car before judging started. I had one judge ask me what speakers I had after judging and he said "I would not have scored you so good if I knew you were using X brand of speakers". I've had judges tell me they will never give a perfect score because nothing is perfect. I had one judge tell me it was his job to find everything wrong with my system, even if it met the rulebook standard for doing something correct. 

And the worst of worst judges just completely ignore the rulebook and use their own personal set of rules and scoring criteria. Unfortunately I ran across this in my last event I competed in back in 2004. Mic knows what I am talking about. 



Mic10is said:


> In short--regardless of sound or install. the judge should be scoring against the rulebook. sound should be scored against a reference system, which cannot and should not ever be another vehicle. Install must be scored against the rulebook.
> Its really that simple--this is what I hear or perceive and based on that the book book says it scores this amount of points. record the score and move on.
> any judge that every used language like "well I would like to have more of or less of..." is judging to a preference not a reference


Not scoring by the rulebook demotes the judging to just comparing the judges opinion to the competitor's opinion. Everybody has an opinion, and many times they are different. By scoring to the rulebook, a judge can show a competitor what their score means without the judge's personal opinion affecting the judging process. 

Every time I judged SQ I brought a CD walkman and a set of audiophile headphones to listen to the judging CD before each system to be judged. I do my best to forget every system I have judged before and only concentrate on how the system I am currently judging sounds in reference to the CD and rulebook. After the scoresheets have been given out I have on several occasions allowed competitors to listen to the CD through my headphones to head what the CD actually sounds like. Then I use their scores and the rulebook to show them where they can improve and what the sound should actually be like.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Jscoyne2 said:


> What about height? Im 6'4" so when I tune. Its a different soundstage for me when I lower my head a few inches where other people would be.
> 
> How does one account for judge height
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk


You need to learn how to "seat" your judges.
Find the sweet spot on the C Pillars, and in the windows and make sure that the judges heads are in that same spot when judging. EVERY JUDGE should allow you to seat them, EVERY JUDGE!! 
I am 6'5 and as a judge I ask EVERY competitor whose car I get into if this is where they want me to be, some as me to slide down, some move the seats, some realize there isn't much they can do and let it rip.

Getting back to the original question, when we are finished at my shows i usually ask everyone if they want the scores announced when I am handing out awards and they have ALWAYS said yes. I can not ever remember in all of my years of hosting, competing and judging having the group ask to keep the scores secret.


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## OldNewb (Sep 30, 2016)

Some of you are making me not want to start doing this. It sounds way more complicated then just letting someone have a listening session. Saying that, every person no matter height that's demoed my car has always said the image was in the right spot. One did say my stage was a bit low but just under eye level. They have all been HT friends though so the size of the stage is always smaller then they are use to which is expected


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

OldNewb said:


> Some of you are making me not want to start doing this. It sounds way more complicated then just letting someone have a listening session. Saying that, every person no matter height that's demoed my car has always said the image was in the right spot. One did say my stage was a bit low but just under eye level. They have all been HT friends though so the size of the stage is always smaller then they are use to which is expected


Try a few shows for yourself. There are a lot of anti-competition people out there (NOT saying everyone that responded is, just saying in general) so don't let that deter you. Yes there are bad judges out there. Yes there are issues that you'll just need to figure out (like seating judges), and you'll learn to figure out a tune that works with the scoresheet, and a bunch of other things.

Ask other competitors, even ones in your class, to listen to your car. Get in with them and ask them to point out what they hear, what they find could use work, etc. Be sure to tell them you want to know what needs fixing or could be improved. People in general don't want to hear negative stuff and the flip side is people don't usually want to tell others anything negative, but it is the only way you will learn in this. Also don't be afraid to ask the judge to go over in more detail why they scored what they did. Most will gladly do so (usually after the show when time permits) as they want to see you progress just as much as you do. 

Having said all of that, if you stick with it for a while, and you start to get to know a few of the competitors and judges, I can almost guarantee you will learn a whole lot more about car audio from them than you ever will from this forum.


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## OldNewb (Sep 30, 2016)

Hopefully I'll find a happy place for my E430s. As of right now they are still wrapped up in a towel in the far corner of the dash. I'm trying to find a way of mounting them in the sail panel but the defrost vent is blowing right on them. It's the best spot I've found


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

pocket5s said:


> Having said all of that, if you stick with it for a while, and you start to get to know a few of the competitors and judges, I can almost guarantee you will learn a whole lot more about car audio from them than you ever will from this forum.


THIS RIGHT HERE ^^^^^^


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## OldNewb (Sep 30, 2016)

I have limited experience on the 12v side but a lot of the HT background transfers over. 
It took a while to get over the center not being the center. But I quickly learnt how much more EQ a car needs.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

OldNewb said:


> It took a while to get over the center not being the center. But I quickly learnt how much more EQ a car needs.


Why is your center not center?


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## OldNewb (Sep 30, 2016)

Center of the car not in front of you like a HT.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Gotcha


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

chefhow said:


> Getting back to the original question, when we are finished at my shows i usually ask everyone if they want the scores announced when I am handing out awards and they have ALWAYS said yes. I can not ever remember in all of my years of hosting, competing and judging having the group ask to keep the scores secret.


Not the final score--I believe the discussion is about the individual scores , basically the entire score sheets to be made public. Scores are posted on every orgs website within a reasonable amount of time after the event.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Mic10is said:


> Not the final score--I believe the discussion is about the individual scores , basically the entire score sheets to be made public. Scores are posted on every orgs website within a reasonable amount of time after the event.


I don't see a need for that unless you suspect that there is some collusion among the judges


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

OldNewb said:


> Some of you are making me not want to start doing this. It sounds way more complicated then just letting someone have a listening session. Saying that, every person no matter height that's demoed my car has always said the image was in the right spot. One did say my stage was a bit low but just under eye level. They have all been HT friends though so the size of the stage is always smaller then they are use to which is expected


I didn't win at state finals, but my car scored well. 
I didnt seat the judge - I told them to try and have fun after listening to 23 other cars..... 

You can take it as serious as you want, but some people are very passionate and take it very seriously.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

chefhow said:


> I don't see a need for that unless you suspect that there is some collusion among the judges


Do you see a need NOT to?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

DLO13 said:


> Do you see a need NOT to?


to what benefit would it be to know that Joe Judge scored my vehicle a 17 on subbass, 19 on midbass, 18 midrange, 18 highs and overall spectral balance was an 18?

that was for that show..it may not be reflective of what it will score at the next show or any other shows that may use another judge.

the only possible things you can infer are that its likely based on the scores that either the vehicle is really strong on tonality or the judge scores really high or both or that the judge has no idea how to score...

There was a guy who started competing again after taking a couple decades off. He had a shop build him a system but he had very limited EQ and they had no idea how to use time alignment.
He went to a show that was being run by a guy who primarily competed in SPL. 2 decades ago the guy running the event was certified as an SQ judge for local 1X events but he never really did much judging--but he figured he could make a few extra bucks by offering SQ at the event.
So this judge scores this guys vehicle like a 254 out of a max of 270...

to put this in perspective...Mark Elderidge and many of the Top competitors in the World dont score a 254....

So when this guy goes to the next show and I scored him something like a 190...he filed a huge complaint saying I was biased and that I had no idea what I was doing. then he goes to another show...same general score. so then he switches organizations and scores like 60s and 70s. 

Then after he emailed and bashed me and I explained the whole situation...he slowly started to click that now he was actually getting more realistic scores now that were actually representative of his vehicle. 

I think at finals the guy scored a 197 and a 72 in the other Org and finished next to if not last


my point is--Scores can be pretty meaningless


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

OldNewb said:


> Some of you are making me not want to start doing this. It sounds way more complicated then just letting someone have a listening session. Saying that, every person no matter height that's demoed my car has always said the image was in the right spot. One did say my stage was a bit low but just under eye level. They have all been HT friends though so the size of the stage is always smaller then they are use to which is expected


My advice would be not to go in expecting to be serious about it. Go in with the attitude of "wherever I place is where I place". Often the biggest plus to competing is just getting the feedback from the judges. My last car was my first build ever, and it ended up being in modex. I didn't intend it that way, but some of the things I did in the build bumped me up. I didn't let it bother me because I had built the car how I wanted it, not to compete. Competition was just a way to get feedback on what could be improved.

If you like it, and want to get serious about it, you can always go down that route. But my initial suggestion is just to try it without any expectations.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

DLO13 said:


> Do you see a need NOT to?


Absolutely, I know for a fact that many if not most of the competitors in this area come to my shows with a different tune EVERY time. They take the feedback, put it to use and then work with it until its judged again. Take that feedback, repeat the process.

What does knowing what everyone scored in every category do to help you?
You want to know that badly just ask the competitors


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## OldNewb (Sep 30, 2016)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> My advice would be not to go in expecting to be serious about it. Go in with the attitude of "wherever I place is where I place". Often the biggest plus to competing is just getting the feedback from the judges. My last car was my first build ever, and it ended up being in modex. I didn't intend it that way, but some of the things I did in the build bumped me up. I didn't let it bother me because I had built the car how I wanted it, not to compete. Competition was just a way to get feedback on what could be improved.
> 
> If you like it, and want to get serious about it, you can always go down that route. But my initial suggestion is just to try it without any expectations.


Thanks. That's a great idea


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## Golden Ear (Oct 14, 2012)

I don't see an issue with showing each judges total score. You know what judges give each competitor at a MECA 1X & 2X event so why not show at a 3X. I think it'll help weed out some bad or inconsistent judging or show if a judge is deliberately tanking a competitor. 


Sent from my mind using telekinesis


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## probillygun (Oct 10, 2013)

chefhow said:


> Absolutely, I know for a fact that many if not most of the competitors in this area come to my shows with a different tune EVERY time. They take the feedback, put it to use and then work with it until its judged again. Take that feedback, repeat the process.
> 
> What does knowing what everyone scored in every category do to help you?
> You want to know that badly just ask the competitors


Agree 100%.

As a avid competitor, I've NEVER cared what someone else's break down of their score sheet was, so my question is, why would someone care? 

Competitors should be concerned about their own breakdown of the scores, and if they question something, ask the judges.

I have no issue with everyone knowing the total scores, but still have a hard time understanding why anyone would care about another competitor's score sheet breakdown?


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Because you can see what made up their score compared to what made up your score. 

If no one cared you wouldn't see everyone comparing sheets after they are handed out 

When I was first starting out it helped me to see what a given car scored after hearing it. Even to this day it does. For example I've heard Marks NASCAR several times, and I've seen a few of his score sheets, so I can relate a score of X in say depth to what I heard and compare that to my score and get a better understanding of the difference of the scores to what I hear. 

I can certainly understand why many wouldn't want those details out for all to see, but if they were I wouldn't complain about it. 

I do agree with the idea that when there is a multijudge show that each judge's total score for a given car be known. 



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## probillygun (Oct 10, 2013)

pocket5s said:


> Because you can see what made up their score compared to what made up your score.
> 
> If no one cared you wouldn't see everyone comparing sheets after they are handed out
> 
> ...


But that still doesn't answer the "Why" for me... seeing what made up someone else's score? so again, Why?

Yea, I have seen some people comparing score sheets after an event but it's not everyone. 

The times I have seen others comparing score sheets typically ends up with a lot of bitching and moaning about how they were scored and negative comments about judges. I'm not a big fan of all the negativity surrounding that type of score sheet comparing situation. So I don't do that.

I go to events to have a good time, listen to some nice cars and let others hear mine if they want to. I guess I'm not serious enough to care how someone else's car scores. I'd much rather listen to others cars myself if they are ok with that. If not, that's ok too.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

probillygun said:


> But that still doesn't answer the "Why" for me... seeing what made up someone else's score? so again, Why?
> 
> Yea, I have seen some people comparing score sheets after an event but it's not everyone.
> 
> ...


I answered why in my 3rd statement. It is a learning thing for me personally. A couple years ago there were two cars that scored nearly identical, within a point or two or so at almost every show, yet they have very different acoustical presentations. having heard both cars and seen both cars' sheets I could see how they scored in relation to what I was hearing and I learned from that. Granted not everyone is that analytical about it, and that's fine. 

That isn't to say I don't enjoy myself. I'm not one of those people that gets into a "competition mode" (as Ive heard it called) and walk around all serious and looking like I'm about to do battle in the Colosseum. I have the same mindset I do at a comp as when I'm at a gtg. Sure I want to win, but I want to learn more so.

No, not everyone does comparisons at shows, but it is usually friends and teammates that do. Usually the complaining stems from an inconsistent judge or a judge that seems to score a lot lower than the norm for a given car, but for the most part trends with the other judges. 

I've seen the first case happen (finals a couple years ago) and it is just bad for competitors. The second case isn't nearly as bad but shows a complete difference of interpretation of the scoring guidelines or lack of experience.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

Just explain how it would negatively impact an event, to have full disclosure of scores?
That is all it comes down to.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

DLO13 said:


> Just explain how it would negatively impact an event, to have full disclosure of scores?
> That is all it comes down to.


personally I don't see how it would.


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

DLO13 said:


> Just explain how it would negatively impact an event, to have full disclosure of scores?
> That is all it comes down to.


Doing so would enable those who feel cheated for whatever reason to start a public witch hunt. I don't use that term lightly. Ask Salem Massachusetts how much fun that was.

I fear this process would conclude with certain judges not being asked to judge events in the future (reducing the judge talent pool to a group that scores the local competitors favorably) rather than allowing everyone to learn something from it, and letting everyone improve their craft.

I would like to believe we are all here to learn and improve, no?


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Jazzi said:


> Doing so would enable those who feel cheated for whatever reason to start a public witch hunt. I don't use that term lightly. Ask Salem Massachusetts how much fun that was.
> 
> I fear this process would conclude with certain judges not being asked to judge events in the future (reducing the judge talent pool to a group that scores the local competitors favorably) rather than allowing everyone to learn something from it, and letting everyone improve their craft.
> 
> I would like to believe we are all here to learn and improve, no?


Won't happen. Those people already exist and some have expressed their... displeasure, and not a single thing has come of it. Some just stop competing all together, or stop in that particular org, or just live it.


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## papasin (Jan 24, 2011)

I don't post on DIYMA very often anymore, but allow me offer a somewhat unique perspective. I'm making this post from Indonesia half way around the world a little after 3:30am local time...call it jet lag or just wanting to share something fairly interesting perhaps.

Some background, I'm here to train and certify judges from Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore, India, and Indonesia for what they intend to call "MECA United" for this region of SE Asia. Tomorrow is Day 2 of training, and Sunday they have asked me to judge their "exhibition" event. They have nearly 30 cars already pre-registered and said they had intended to have more and normally in these parts they have triple those numbers. 

They explained to me how they intend to announce scores. As I turn in each scoresheet, a runner will take the scoresheet I complete (and I don't total my own sheets) and will give it to a scorekeeper. The scorekeeper will input the entries into a computer, and the scores per category will be displayed on a big screen in real-time. The only thing I requested is not to be able to see the screen...the process they have elected is not defined in the rulebook, and Steve allows MECA international chapters to define or alter portions of the rulebook they see fit for their region. For those familiar with MECA SPL, as I understand it how we got Dueling Demos incorporated into the mainstream as by virtue of an international chapter.

I do not plan on changing anything in my judging process, and so long as I know that I am judging by the rulebook criteria, I have a high level of confidence that I am doing my job as a judge. I'd be curious how this type of process would be accepted elsewhere. Not to say this is right either, but offering another perspective that certainly could easily be as transparent as things can be.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

papasin said:


> I don't post on DIYMA very often anymore, but allow me offer a somewhat unique perspective. I'm making this post from Indonesia half way around the world a little after 3:30am local time...call it jet lag or just wanting to share something fairly interesting perhaps.
> 
> Some background, I'm here to train and certify judges from Malaysia, Thailand, Singapore, India, and Indonesia for what they intend to call "MECA United" for this region of SE Asia. Tomorrow is Day 2 of training, and Sunday they have asked me to judge their "exhibition" event. They have nearly 30 cars already pre-registered and said they had intended to have more and normally in these parts they have triple those numbers.
> 
> ...


Sign me up.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

Jazzi said:


> Doing so would enable those who feel cheated for whatever reason to start a public witch hunt. I don't use that term lightly. Ask Salem Massachusetts how much fun that was.
> 
> I fear this process would conclude with certain judges not being asked to judge events in the future (reducing the judge talent pool to a group that scores the local competitors favorably) rather than allowing everyone to learn something from it, and letting everyone improve their craft.
> 
> I would like to believe we are all here to learn and improve, no?


It doesn't matter where or when, or what type of event, judges and referees always will get crap for what they do. That is something that goes with the territory and all judges/refs should know this going in.

This was my first year competing and for 3 or 4 years now, of following the competitive scene, I have witnessed countless complaints towards judges, so I don't see how further transparency could make that worse. 
You haven't really proven or clarified how it WOULD make it worse. 

A judge should 100% stand behind the scores they provide, and should have no problem with them being displayed to all. I understand why a competitor might like to be secretive when it comes to the breakdown of their scores, but let's be honest here.... there isn't really a mental edge when it comes to this type of competition....

We aren't exactly fighting MMA here, despite what some competitors might think..... you can't really intimidate someone when it comes to building/tuning a car audio system..... and if you think you can... that's funny. 



In regards to improving our craft, are you arguing that knowing less about score sheets helps us to improve?


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## BlackHHR (May 12, 2013)

I am going to step in and make a comment. From either side, competitor or judge. I personally have no problem with showing my score sheet, or ones I have scored. 

Just saying.......


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

I like 80's video games. the competition was easy, whoever got the highest score won and a game board was the judge. :laugh::laugh:


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

DLO13 said:


> You haven't really proven or clarified how it WOULD make it worse.
> 
> ..........
> 
> In regards to improving our craft, are you arguing that knowing less about score sheets helps us to improve?


The argument in this thread seems to be "if we don't like a certain judge, then we want to open the data up so we can use it as a tool to justify why we don't like them, and weed them out".

So lets skip to the conclusion. The competitors of some local area systematically weed out the judges that they don't like. What's left? Only judges that the competitors like, because the judges score them in a manner that is pleasing, which is exactly the kind of bias that you are all trying to eliminate in the first place. This is precisely why having a diverse mix of judges from all over the country participate in a multi-judge event is so powerful, because it dilutes any local bias.

I do not see how using the data that is being requested to be opened, in the manner in which the discussion is suggesting, will have any real benefit. I see it as a tool for alienating certain people who do not agree with the local majority.

...

And in regards to improving our craft, I am suggesting that this kind of _exclusionary_ thought process doesn't help anyone learn or improve anything. Why not try to understand the reason why the given result is not the same as the result that was expected? Once you look deeper than "that person is biased and should be excluded" and figure out what is really going on, then the problem can be addressed and (hopefully) resolved. This process is how we learn and grow and improve our crafts.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

I would have to assume, it is very hard to do this, and nobody will be perfect.

The only way to know, or be critical of a judge, is to become a judge or receive the training to get an idea of what they go through, and use that to help themselves. 


At some point it's like some sports, it takes practice to make quick decisions and blow the whistle to make a call, and sometimes not all fans will agree with the call just like anything else. 

The good thing is, having unlimited options, the cars and the system components can be changed or upgraded if being serious, besides improving the tuning, while athletes will only depend on skills, ability and training to keep up with the best and be better. 

It would be nice if all judges could be blind folded, put in the cars, not knowing who's car it is, have an assistant inside skipping tracks and work the volume dial.
Then pass the scores and only the assistant can write them, and know who's car it was, and maybe the assistant read the feedback to the car owner. Then the judge just confirms the score/ report with the name on the sheet covered. He he


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## probillygun (Oct 10, 2013)

DLO13 said:


> Just explain how it would negatively impact an event, to have full disclosure of scores?
> That is all it comes down to.


I thought my earlier statement was very clear how it negatively impacts an event;

"The times I have seen others comparing score sheets typically ends up with a lot of bitching and moaning about how they were scored and negative comments about judges. I'm not a big fan of all the negativity surrounding that type of score sheet comparing situation."

So, for me, this takes a fun event and sucks the life and good time out of it. Which is why if full disclosure scores becomes commonplace, I'll probably retire from comps.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

if anyone is bitching and moaning about a score they got in a car audio event, they need to rethink their priorities. are we not in this for fun? or do some people really take it that seriously?


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## probillygun (Oct 10, 2013)

yes, I've seen it happen at multiple events. I'm NOT a fan of it.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

For those who have competed at 2X to finals with multiple judges, if you look at your score sheets, you will find that all 2-3 judges are very close to each other (~ +/- 1 point or less). This should tell you your scores are correct and that you don't need an RTA to consistently and accurately measure how good the car sounds. 

However, if one judges score is substantially different from the other one or two, let's say one judge is off by - 3 to 4 points (I'm assuming you'll won't gripe if he is + 3 to 4 points) from the others across the board, or on any one aspect eg height, tonality etc, the best recourse is to point that out to the organizers.

If it's a 'new and inexperienced judge' thing, and enough people complain, the organizers will know not to use him / her as a judge next time. But the overall picture still stays the same and the guy ahead of you by 3 points would still be ahead if both of you'll got a few extra points each.

OTOH if its a case of bias, you will be the only one complaining and hence stand out and chances are the organizers will have a quiet word with the judge. Now pick another event where the same judge is judging and see if the pattern is repeated. Either ways it's checkmate.

Gymnastics and skating are two sports that score objectively on visual inputs. Here each judge gives the score at the end of the performance, but how does that eliminate the mistakes of a noobie judge or bias? It doesn't.


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## probillygun (Oct 10, 2013)

Yes, Totally agree with you sqnut


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

probillygun said:


> yes, I've seen it happen at multiple events. I'm NOT a fan of it.


That's not cool. I hear about it happening, but at the Syracuse event everyone was cool as a cucumber. No bitching or complaining. Just fun

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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

sqnut said:


> For those who have competed at 2X to finals with multiple judges, if you look at your score sheets, you will find that all 2-3 judges are very close to each other (~ +/- 1 point or less). This should tell you your scores are correct and that you don't need an RTA to consistently and accurately measure how good the car sounds.
> 
> However, if one judges score is substantially different from the other one or two, let's say one judge is off by - 3 to 4 points (I'm assuming you'll won't gripe if he is + 3 to 4 points) from the others across the board, or on any one aspect eg height, tonality etc, the best recourse is to point that out to the organizers.
> 
> If it's a 'new and inexperienced judge' thing, and enough people complain, the organizers will know not to use him / her as a judge next time. But the overall picture still stays the same and the guy ahead of you by 3 points would still be ahead if both of you'll got a few extra points each.



I think people put to much weight into the numbers in MECA. I know there are some judges who score low and some who score high. They are CONSISTENT, they do it across the board, and they are fair. Do their numbers look like other judges numbers? DEFINITELY NOT, but they are consistently low/high. You have to take the numbers out of the equation sometimes in MECA and look at the feedback, is it consistent from judge to judge? Is it consistent across the competition? Is it consistent from show to show?


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

sqnut said:


> For those who have competed at 2X to finals with multiple judges, if you look at your score sheets, you will find that all 2-3 judges are very close to each other (~ +/- 1 point or less). This should tell you your scores are correct and that you don't need an RTA to consistently and accurately measure how good the car sounds.
> 
> However, if one judges score is substantially different from the other one or two, let's say one judge is off by - 3 to 4 points (I'm assuming you'll won't gripe if he is + 3 to 4 points) from the others across the board, or on any one aspect eg height, tonality etc, the best recourse is to point that out to the organizers.
> 
> ...


There are people who have pointed out certain scoring, uh, irregularities, and nothing has been ever been done. New and inexperienced judges are, in general from what I've seen, given a pass by most competitors, especially at smaller local shows. They know they are new or inexperienced and ignore that score or take it with a grain of salt. Not everyone can jump in as a new judge and be as good as the seasoned trusted judges and that's ok.

To chefhow's point, there are those that do regularly score lower than others. It just is what it is and happens in both meca and iasca. As he mentioned, as long as they are consistent across the competitors at that show, that's not a horrible thing. It is those times when they vary quite a bit that causes problems. Or they trend lower with the apparent exception of 1 or 2 cars.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

chefhow said:


> I think people put to much weight into the numbers in MECA. I know there are some judges who score low and some who score high. They are CONSISTENT, they do it across the board, and they are fair. Do their numbers look like other judges numbers? DEFINITELY NOT, but they are consistently low/high. You have to take the numbers out of the equation sometimes in MECA and look at the feedback, is it consistent from judge to judge? Is it consistent across the competition? Is it consistent from show to show?





pocket5s said:


> There are people who have pointed out certain scoring, uh, irregularities, and nothing has been ever been done. New and inexperienced judges are, in general from what I've seen, given a pass by most competitors, especially at smaller local shows. They know they are new or inexperienced and ignore that score or take it with a grain of salt. Not everyone can jump in as a new judge and be as good as the seasoned trusted judges and that's ok.
> 
> To chefhow's point, there are those that do regularly score lower than others. It just is what it is and happens in both meca and iasca. As he mentioned, as long as they are consistent across the competitors at that show, that's not a horrible thing. It is those times when they vary quite a bit that causes problems. Or they trend lower with the apparent exception of 1 or 2 cars.


I get what you'll are saying, but it just seems counter intuitive to have a judge who is consistently higher or lower than others in the mix. I get how even that would work out in the long term, but it would lead 99% to be wary of the judging process and spark the bitching and moaning.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

Most "wtf?!" moments from those competitors that happen to have a local judge that scores high, like abnormally high, thinking their car is rock solid with 85's and get to finals only to realize it is only a 75 car. 

That is both discouraging and counter productive to those competitors. 

On the flip side, if you have a car that normally trends at say 80-81 and at a single show gets two 80's and a 73, then yeah that raises an eyebrow.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

pocket5s said:


> Most "wtf?!" moments from those competitors that happen to have a local judge that scores high, like abnormally high, thinking their car is rock solid with 85's and get to finals only to realize it is only a 75 car.
> 
> That is both discouraging and counter productive to those competitors.
> 
> On the flip side, if you have a car that normally trends at say 80-81 and at a single show gets two 80's and a 73, then yeah that raises an eyebrow.


It's like you saw my score sheets.


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## mcnaugcl (Apr 23, 2013)

DLO13 said:


> It's like you saw my score sheets.


He must have seen my score sheets too.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

DLO13 said:


> It's like you saw my score sheets.





mcnaugcl said:


> He must have seen my score sheets too.


 Not sure which statement you are referring to, but I will say there is kind of an inside joke amongst some that when looking at results from california shows, subtract 5 points and that's what the 'normal' score would be.  There are a couple exceptions to that of course...


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

Is that why California cars keeping going back East and bringing home world championships?


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## strohw (Jan 27, 2016)

rton20s said:


> Is that why California cars keeping going back East and bringing home world championships?


They just don't want to make you guys feel bad after driving all that way.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

rton20s said:


> Is that why California cars keeping going back East and bringing home world championships?




I did say there were a few exceptions. Welch and Becker (when he was competing) come to mind. 


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## mcnaugcl (Apr 23, 2013)

pocket5s said:


> Not sure which statement you are referring to, but I will say there is kind of an inside joke amongst some that when looking at results from california shows, subtract 5 points and that's what the 'normal' score would be.  There are a couple exceptions to that of course...


I consistently score in the mid 70s. Occasionally in the lower 70s. At finals I had two scores consistent with what I normally score. My lowest score was over 12 pts lower than my high score.


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## garysummers (Oct 25, 2010)

pocket5s said:


> I did say there were a few exceptions. Welch and Becker (when he was competing) come to mind


Was my win in 2010 in the Modex class an exception or were they just making sure my trip was worth it. 

Just curious.


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## OldNewb (Sep 30, 2016)

garysummers said:


> Was my win in 2010 in the Modex class an exception or were they just making sure my trip was worth it.
> 
> Just curious.


Hold on a second. Are you THE Gary Summers?


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## RRizz (Sep 4, 2012)

I have seen scoresheets at a 3x event this year with a 30 point spread. No lie.
Judges not scoring by their preference is bunk, imho, But that's ok with me, I'm in it for the fun, and the awesome people, and cars.


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## cobb2819 (Jan 13, 2011)

OldNewb said:


> Hold on a second. Are you THE Gary Summers?


Yeah...he's THAT guy!!


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## OldNewb (Sep 30, 2016)

Wow. I'm not worthy. This place just keeps getting better


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

garysummers said:


> Was my win in 2010 in the Modex class an exception or were they just making sure my trip was worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious.




Before my time  

I have no doubt it was deserved


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## jtaudioacc (Apr 6, 2010)

garysummers said:


> Was my win in 2010 in the Modex class an exception or were they just making sure my trip was worth it.
> 
> Just curious.



i heard they all said...


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## Justin Zazzi (May 28, 2012)

I hear some people are saying:
_"My car scored lower than I thought it should for whatever reason so I blame the judges"_

And some other people are saying:
_"Judges may hand out scores higher or lower than expected, but that is not a serious problem so long as they are consistent from car to car, and event to event."_

And some others are saying:
_"If you have a problem with your score, speak up right away so the issue can be investigated and addressed"_

So why don't you folks that feel cheated speak up to the event organizers or the head judge at your events on the day that this happens? You might learn that whatever score you got was the result of a judge that just averages a little lower than usual. You might learn that the judges you are used to hand out scores a little higher than normal. You might uncover that someone is being biased, which is what some of you are insinuating.

But no matter what, no progress will be made by venting your frustrations here because you are talking to the wrong people. You must speak to the people involved on the day it happened and the ones that are able to make changes. I just hope that when that happens, it can be constructive and everyone can learn something.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

strohw said:


> They just don't want to make you guys feel bad after driving all that way.


Ask Matt R. what he thought of the cars at CA state finals.


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## pocket5s (Jan 6, 2012)

To be clear, I never once said anything about the quality of the California cars, championships not being deserved or anything of the sort, so those reading between the lines can stop. 

All I said was some joke about the scores, IN GENERAL, tend to be higher. Not crying about it, not complaining, not saying bad judges or biased judging or any of that crap at all. just making a statement that with a few exceptions when seeing what one non-ca car scored vs a ca car you can usually equate them by that point difference. Nothing more. 

Having said that, a friend pointed out that Gary's car (because he brought it up) fits that description in 2010. It scored 90+ twice and at finals did an 83 or 84. It won. It deserved it. I'm sure it is fantastic now, if not more, than it was then. Nothing more. 

I mentioned Welchs car because I know of it much better, I've heard it and it scores at finals what it does in CA, so yes it was one of the exceptions that came to mind at the moment. 

And yes I think it sounds every bit of a mid 80's car, without a doubt. 




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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I've judged CA Finals and the Cars that score consistently in high 80s and 90s deserve it. They are THAT good on a consistent basis


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Jazzi said:


> I hear some people are saying:
> _"My car scored lower than I thought it should for whatever reason so I blame the judges"_
> 
> And some other people are saying:
> ...


The easiest way to combat and end the problem is to make have stage maps with specific scoring criteria based on the map.
If said vehicle does this than it scores that, its simple, its easy and its explainable. There are still small variations in scores but its MUCH more consistent, its easier for the competitor to understand, and if there is a question you can get in the car with the judge and have them walk thru the sheet with you as long as time allows.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

chefhow said:


> The easiest way to combat and end the problem is to make have stage maps with specific scoring criteria based on the map.
> If said vehicle does this than it scores that, its simple, its easy and its explainable. There are still small variations in scores but its MUCH more consistent, its easier for the competitor to understand, and if there is a question you can get in the car with the judge and have them walk thru the sheet with you as long as time allows.



That's exactly what we have out here. When I judge, I judge to the map for any imaging/staging categories.


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## DLO13 (Oct 24, 2010)

strohw said:


> They just don't want to make you guys feel bad after driving all that way.


They made sure a lot of people didn't feel bad this past weekend.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

DLO13 said:


> They made sure a lot of people didn't feel bad this past weekend.


the drive was extra bad this year. they had to make it up to them


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

DLO13 said:


> They made sure a lot of people didn't feel bad this past weekend.


Maybe they were all the exceptions to the rule?


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