# 2008 Yaris Sedan Deadening and Sound System



## derickveliz

This is a learning process for me, and I learn some thing new every day...

This is my ride:










This is the equipment:


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## derickveliz

*Deadening:*

MLV ... 120 SF 
1/8" CCF... 40 SF
1/4" CCF... 80 SF
CLD Tiles... 60 (6"x10" each)
RAAMmat... 60 SF
Ensolite IUO Peal and Stick.... 15 SF

Dash Mat. (Black Ltd.)


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## derickveliz

*Building Spheres for the Hertz 3" HL-70s...*


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## derickveliz




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## derickveliz

*Lots of sanding...*















































Thanks to my friend Palmer for my T-shirt from YarisWorld forum...


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## derickveliz




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## derickveliz




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## derickveliz

*Building the Spheres for Tweeters...*


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## derickveliz




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## derickveliz




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## vwtoby

AWESOME photos! and good lucking install...

keep us posted.


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## derickveliz

vwtoby said:


> AWESOME photos! and good lucking install...
> 
> keep us posted.


Thank you v*wtoby!*


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## MTopper

great looking install of the pods. for a learning process, you're darn good at it already


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## sinister-kustoms

Wow, they look brilliant! Nice photography aswell. Looking forward to updates!


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## derickveliz

MTopper said:


> great looking install of the pods. for a learning process, you're darn good at it already


Thanks MTopper, I usually work behind a computer screen and moving a mouse or taking photos, never done any fiber glass stuff!



sinister-kustoms said:


> Wow, they look brilliant! Nice photography aswell. Looking forward to updates!


Thanks sinister-kustoms, I guess the pictures makes everything look much better! 


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## HondAudio

Those Hertz midranges are... intriguing


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## papacueball

Very nice! I'm jealous of the symmetrical dash. Did you try different locations for the tweeter and/or aiming of both mid and tweet?


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## hottcakes

too bad all that work was done to a brake-failing toyota, and a yaris at that. 












i'm just kidding man. that is some great work, even more so if you really don't have any glassing experience. nice out of the norm pictures too.


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## energizedsbs

Looking good. Great start. What size spheres are those? 4-5"? Ive been looking to try this out for a while now.


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## ReloadedSS

Great gear, very nice install. Sub'd for updates. Looking fine so far.


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## theRESONANCE

derick! 

Nice work on the install! Its been a long time since i've seen your car. (Last time I saw it was on yarisworld)
Great progress! I'm glad you decided to glass :]. Its a lot of work but truly pays off!

I see you also upgraded your equipment! Man I bet you love driving your car.


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## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> Those Hertz midranges are... intriguing


and they sound great too!

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## derickveliz

papacueball said:


> Very nice! I'm jealous of the symmetrical dash. Did you try different locations for the tweeter and/or aiming of both mid and tweet?


Thanks, yes the dash it's cavernous and great for our systems.

I did, and now after some experience I would like to aim the mids a little bit more inwards to move the stage towards the windshield a little bit more. I made some graphics to show my stage and how it's evolving and why I will modify it later.

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## derickveliz

hottcakes said:


> too bad all that work was done to a brake-failing toyota, and a yaris at that.
> 
> i'm just kidding man. that is some great work, even more so if you really don't have any glassing experience. nice out of the norm pictures too.


Jeje, I know *Toyota moving forward... even if you don't want too.*

I'm glad mine didn't have that problem, 5 peed manual at it's best, and 42 MPG doesn't hurt either.


Yes! first time I dare to do some thing like that! I'm proud of my self, really.


D.


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## derickveliz

energizedsbs said:


> Looking good. Great start. What size spheres are those? 4-5"? Ive been looking to try this out for a while now.



Thanks
Real size is 4.5" 

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## derickveliz

ReloadedSS said:


> Great gear, very nice install. Sub'd for updates. Looking fine so far.


Thank you, 
all this work from somebody that works behind a pc with a mouse! well, when I had a job!


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## derickveliz

theRESONANCE said:


> derick!
> 
> Nice work on the install! Its been a long time since i've seen your car. (Last time I saw it was on yarisworld)
> Great progress! I'm glad you decided to glass :]. Its a lot of work but truly pays off!
> 
> I see you also upgraded your equipment! Man I bet you love driving your car.


Thanks, theRESONANCE, yea! I've been keeping an eye on your install, that sub-woofer box came out very nice! Yes I'm still posting at YarisWorld, we miss you over there!

Glass?.... Puffff piece of cake! well not really but it was fun and smells good too.

Yes, I really like to drive this little car!

.


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## bigguy2010

Nice work man, looks awesome. What mid bass driver is that you're using? Is it a ~6.5"?


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## derickveliz

bigguy2010 said:


> Nice work man, looks awesome. What mid bass driver is that you're using? Is it a ~6.5"?


Thank you,
Right now I'm using a regular 6.5 speaker in the doors, I'm going to build kickpanels for the Legatia 6 (6.5" drivers)

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## bigguy2010

Can't wait keep it up!


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## derickveliz

Deadening:

For me there are 2 ways to approach this...

1) Block Outside noise

2) Prevent Rattles

I did a mix and tried to keep a balance, so here we go:


Started pulling some panels:












Learning about the 25% of a flat area to control resonances:












After CLD Tiles, a layer of CCF and MLV:


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## derickveliz

Here is a short video I made to show how CLD Tiles work:

*VIDEO LINK*


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## derickveliz

Doors:

The rear right door treatment...

Taking the trim panel off was hard I bet the second door will be much easier.

CLD Tiles taking care of the resonances on the flat areas of the door.



















































My next step is to use 3/8” cylindrical form Extruded Butyl "Rope" this is going behind the intrusion bars, I have to leave gaps for water to drain. 



















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## derickveliz

I took a photo of the trim panel put the picture in AutoCAD to scale and then traced over to get the profile of the panel.


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## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


> I took a photo of the trim panel put the picture in AutoCAD to scale and then traced over to get the profile of the panel.


FYI, we can't see the pics. 

Kelvin


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## Ludemandan

Dude, this is seriously clean. Nice work. I hope it sounds good enough to reward all the effort.


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## MTopper

no pics for me either


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## derickveliz

subwoofery said:


> FYI, we can't see the pics.
> 
> Kelvin


What about now?

can you see the pictures?

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## bigguy2010

can't see post # 31 or 33, just 34.


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## derickveliz

bigguy2010 said:


> can't see post # 31 or 33, just 34.


Please let me know if you still can't see the pictures!


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## MTopper

got them. looks great


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## subwoofery

See them now... Nice work. 

Kelvin


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## bigguy2010

derickveliz said:


> Please let me know if you still can't see the pictures!
> 
> 
> .


SURE CAN! Finally I run across a member who knows how to deaden! VERY nice work man! Looks very clean!


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## E300

Nice install! Subscribed.


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## derickveliz

Thank you, every body...

Here is a *video clip* I made with a regular digital camera testing the rear doors, The one on the right side of the car is the one I just finished treating, this is an "open close" test follow by a "knock knock" test. 

Also 2 Audio Graphics of the same video. The first one shows "open and close" test the second one it's the "knock knock" test.


The difference is a lot more in real person. But on the effort to share my experience this is what I can post. I hope it helps other enthusiasts.


*LINK FOR VIDEO*
























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## derickveliz

Knocking on the doors there is a good 3db in between the treated and untreated door.

I hope this helps I'm not an acoustical engineering but this is how I read the graphic adding a scale with db. What I can assure you is that now the treated door feels like a Luxury car, it's a very nice feeling. 











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## ReloadedSS

that is definitely news you can use. Thanks for posting the data and results from your test.


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## tuto's88t2

spheres .. havent seen that .. i like!! good sh**!


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## ThipN

Subscribed.


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## jaydub

Your install looks excellent! I am already pre-planning for my next install (for a car I don't yet own...) and I'm curious where you learned of the 25% "rule" for the flat panels to control resonance. I just want to learn what I can before I attempt what will be an install to last me for a few years.*















*famous last words.


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## SNEAKY

NICE BUILD


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## FREQBOX

jaydub said:


> Your install looks excellent! I am already pre-planning for my next install (for a car I don't yet own...) and I'm curious where you learned of the 25% "rule" for the flat panels to control resonance. I just want to learn what I can before I attempt what will be an install to last me for a few years.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *famous last words.


25% info here


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## Huckleberry Sound

Any Updates!!!!


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## jaydub

FREQBOX said:


> 25% info here


Thanks buddy.


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## derickveliz

tuto's88t2 said:


> spheres .. havent seen that .. i like!! good sh**!


Check this thread about "Diffractions" Improve Your Soundstage for $2

Thanks

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## derickveliz

FREQBOX said:


> 25% info here


Yes!
talk to *Don Sambrook*, he help me to understand how it works!

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## GSlider

Nice work so far. You'll def achieve a high level of SQ with the gear your using.


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## teenkertoy

Subscribed.

I like your work. Great job using a realistic amount of material in a proper install, rather than overdoing it without concern.


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## derickveliz

Huckleberry Sound said:


> Any Updates!!!!


I wanted to show you how the panels sound so different when they are deadened, 

*VIDEO LINK*


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## derickveliz

Lets talk about *BIG 3* a must for my Yaris

This video helped me understand what to do:



D.


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## derickveliz

GSlider said:


> Nice work so far. You'll def achieve a high level of SQ with the gear your using.


Thank you,

Yes I believe that I had to go the extra step, and so far... it's worth the efforts!

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## derickveliz

teenkertoy said:


> Subscribed.
> 
> I like your work. Great job using a realistic amount of material in a proper install, rather than overdoing it without concern.


Thank you,

At the beginning I just didn't get it, and I did a couple of "lets try to put more" one example was my front right wheel well, after applying CLD Tiles I decided to put 3 and almost 4 layers of Mat on top, the results... I couldn't tell or feel/hear the difference, as soon as I put down a layer of MLV + CCFoam on top.... BIG difference Road noise was reduced significantly. 

Now I want to do kick panels and I'm going to have to dig into the Mat! Bummer!

One thing I do recognize is for acoustics/rattles a couple of layers of Mat does help, specially for Low Frequencies. But it's not worth to do it every where.

.


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## computerjlt

i'm totally copy'ing your pod idea!


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## derickveliz

OEM deadening material behind pilot's seat ( FYI... Yaris is not a quite car, very noisy and lots of road noise, specially on the high way! 

OEM deadening is gone and fresh CLD Tiles go in place...







































.


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## derickveliz

computerjlt said:


> i'm totally copy'ing your pod idea!


Be my guest!

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## computerjlt

just read up on how spherical enclosures don't cause difractions; man i'm glad i found that article before I made the pods i was thinking of!


really digging the build!


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## Topdown

is there a major difference in putting the CLD down on top of the OEM deadener? If its not doing anything - which is pretty apparent by the tap-tap-tapping, why not just adhere the CLD tile over the top? (asking because I really dont know, I have always removed old first)


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## don_chuwish

Topdown said:


> is there a major difference in putting the CLD down on top of the OEM deadener? If its not doing anything - which is pretty apparent by the tap-tap-tapping, why not just adhere the CLD tile over the top? (asking because I really dont know, I have always removed old first)


No objective evidence to quote, but my FEELING is that the CLD would just be more effective with the OEM gunk removed. I didn't bother on mine but it didn't quite seem right.

OP, Love the work on this car so far. Seems like working with the MLV this way is easier than with the foam backing.

I do hope you have some before and after road noise sound level readings to report when done? I'm interested in RTA style measurements, showing all freq ranges. Another thing I wish I could have done on mine! Next car maybe.

- D


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## n_olympios

Damn pb bandwidth.


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## leepersc

No pics whatsoever homie! Nada, zip, zilch with the pics!


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## leepersc

Actually, lots of this b.s. - see attached pic


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## EGSMachine

maybe next month i'll be able to see the pics.


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## Jaloosk

lol owned by photobucket :lol:


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## pjc

awsome work. thanks for the 25% link. feel like i wasted lots of time and money putting 2 full layers of deadner on 2 cars years ago. will spend alot more time researching if i ever convince myself to try another build.
great work, and like that its in a yaris... looking for a gas friendly car one day...


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## swargolet

Awesome build and great pictures!

It would be interesting to see how the 25% deadened would compare to the 100% deadened that most people do.


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## derickveliz

swargolet said:


> Awesome build and great pictures!
> 
> It would be interesting to see how the 25% deadened would compare to the 100% deadened that most people do.


1 or 2 layer of Mat won't block road noise the same way a layer of MLV + CCfoam + CLD Tiles (25%) would do!

The key here is to Block the noise! That's the main function of MLV.

Layers of Mat do help for SPL though!

.


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## derickveliz

pjc said:


> awsome work. thanks for the 25% link. feel like i wasted lots of time and money putting 2 full layers of deadner on 2 cars years ago. will spend alot more time researching if i ever convince myself to try another build.
> great work, and like that its in a yaris... looking for a gas friendly car one day...


Thank you!

I think there should be a balance between layers of Mat and using MLV to reduce out side noise and improve acoustics inside our cars!

Love the Yaris,, summer 43 MPG winter 37 MPG


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## ErinH

nice install, man. I really like the use of autoCAD to make the templates. 

Oh, and nice pictures. Care to tell us what your camera rig is?


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## Vital

WOW!!! Lots of attention to details, very detailed pics and description, like it a LOT!! and def sub'ed.


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## mk3forme

Lots of good info in here. Love threads like this. Keep up the good work!


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## MrChow

Interesting build! I like it. The sound deadening is really cool!

Keep it up!


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## mach_y

Any review on the Powerbass amplifier? Haven't seen a review on them yet, but I really like the look!


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## labcoat22

any details on the paint on the pods its looks great? 

R-


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## derickveliz

Topdown said:


> is there a major difference in putting the CLD down on top of the OEM deadener? If its not doing anything - which is pretty apparent by the tap-tap-tapping, why not just adhere the CLD tile over the top? (asking because I really dont know, I have always removed old first)


After 2 years and a couple of summers, some of the OEM deadener (cheap stuff) it's dry and started to crack, if I had CLD or Mat on top it may cause rattles.

I just like to take it out and know that what ever I put in there it's going to stick well.

.


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## derickveliz

bikinpunk said:


> nice install, man. I really like the use of autoCAD to make the templates.
> 
> Oh, and nice pictures. Care to tell us what your camera rig is?


Thanks,

Yeah I used to work in a very nice office of architects, lots of CAD work.

I have an old Nikon D-50 (D-SLR).

.


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## derickveliz

Vital said:


> WOW!!! Lots of attention to details, very detailed pics and description, like it a LOT!! and def sub'ed.


Thank you, 
I try to do what I can! wish to have more time and money (like every body else) jeje.


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## derickveliz

mach_y said:


> Any review on the Powerbass amplifier? Haven't seen a review on them yet, but I really like the look!


What can I say... sounds as goods as it looks!

May get another one to replace the Premier amp.

.


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## derickveliz

labcoat22 said:


> any details on the paint on the pods its looks great?
> 
> R-


Rost-Oleum "Hight Heat" just thinking about the heat in the summer  I was just looking for something *Mate and non reflective!*











.


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## derickveliz

n_olympios said:


> Damn pb bandwidth.


it should be working now!


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## n_olympios

It is and we're loving it! 

Nice paint, and I hear ya about the "matte and non reflective". Here's how I painted my dash plastic parts (they were shiny silver as stock).


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## derickveliz

don_chuwish said:


> I do hope you have some before and after road noise sound level readings to report when done? I'm interested in RTA style measurements, showing all freq ranges. Another thing I wish I could have done on mine! Next car maybe.
> 
> - D


I'm afraid not with that level of complexity that you are talking about, but...

We did some testing with a cheap dB reader.

A friend of mine (in CA) with another Yaris (same model) he did his with a complete layer of Mat. Long story-short... his readings where higher after deadening, we came with the conclusion of the Guitar effect (that's how I called). 

Here is where I figure out that the clue was to block the noise with MLV. I asked him to send me his dB reader and I did a few readings with my car, been much lower readings than his, even with my car not 100% deadened. 

I'll dig the videos and post them here soon. His readings where around mids 80's and mine in the low 70's 

But all this is relative, in my opinion for the most economically car from toyota (a very noisy Yaris) it's worth every inch of deadening, I have a couple stories that I will tell later as a user.


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## nar93da

Looks great so far!

Try dry ice on the OEM deadener next time. You won't have to worry about getting all the glue residue up. Using a heat gun sucks doing that!


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## derickveliz

*Big 3*


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## derickveliz

nar93da said:


> Looks great so far!
> 
> Try dry ice on the OEM deadener next time. You won't have to worry about getting all the glue residue up. Using a heat gun sucks doing that!



I knew about dry ice, it just wasn't available. But if I come across this situation again, I'm sure I'll use dry ice!


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## MrChow

derickveliz said:


> I knew about dry ice, it just wasn't available. But if I come across this situation again, I'm sure I'll use dry ice!
> 
> 
> .


It's works soo well. My friend took all of his OE deadening out of his car. Then replaced where it was need and he was super happy.


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## labcoat22

derickveliz said:


> Rost-Oleum "Hight Heat" just thinking about the heat in the summer  I was just looking for something *Mate and non reflective!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


haha I have used that on my brake calipers. What did you prep with i.e. the white and brown layers.

R-


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## Mirage_Man

Dude, very nice work. I love your attention to detail. Can't wait to see how it turns out for you in the end.

BTW I got my deadening from Don at SDS as well. Awesome company to deal with.


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## computerjlt

hey on your foam balls how did you hollow them out?


I have mine made up getting ready to fiberglass them; will probably do that tomorrow but i'm curious how you hollowed them out once the glass was set.

i'm thinking i may try laquer thinner or urethane reducer to melt it but just thought i'd ask lol


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## derickveliz

labcoat22 said:


> haha I have used that on my brake calipers. What did you prep with i.e. the white and brown layers.R-


White its just primer, the brown, it's Krylon Camouflage, I got a black cap, but it turn out to be brown  Then I had Rost-Oleum and gave it a try. Trial and error 









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## derickveliz

computerjlt said:


> hey on your foam balls how did you hollow them out?
> 
> 
> I have mine made up getting ready to fiberglass them; will probably do that tomorrow but i'm curious how you hollowed them out once the glass was set.
> 
> i'm thinking i may try laquer thinner or urethane reducer to melt it but just thought i'd ask lol


Yeah! *"laquer thinner"*


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## derickveliz

Mirage_Man said:


> Dude, very nice work. I love your attention to detail. Can't wait to see how it turns out for you in the end.
> 
> BTW I got my deadening from Don at SDS as well. Awesome company to deal with.


Thank you!

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## derickveliz

PAINFUL PROCESS











Almost there...











Cleaning it up...











This hole goes straight to the road!...











And mine is less than 5 inches from the road!...


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## derickveliz

:wink:


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## derickveliz

Talking about layers I just added one MORE!

*Radiant Barrier* 

I'm putting this along the center channel and other areas after applying CLD Tiles and before CCF adn MLV, I've been driving with no center console, bare metal and I can tell it gets HOT!:evil: the exhaust pipe runs too close in this area; the other day I had a Hershey chocolate about 4 inches above, and it melted! 

I guess this heat going inside the cabin it's good in winter, but not good in summer, any way one more barrier to make the noisy work harder! Also my *amps don't appreciate extra heat!*


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## don_chuwish

derickveliz said:


> I'm afraid not with that level of complexity that you are talking about, but...
> 
> We did some testing with a cheap dB reader.
> 
> A friend of mine (in CA) with another Yaris (same model) he did his with a complete layer of Mat. Long story-short... his readings where higher after deadening, we came with the conclusion of the Guitar effect (that's how I called).
> 
> Here is where I figure out that the clue was to block the noise with MLV. I asked him to send me his dB reader and I did a few readings with my car, been much lower readings than his, even with my car not 100% deadened.
> 
> I'll dig the videos and post them here soon. His readings where around mids 80's and mine in the low 70's
> 
> But all this is relative, in my opinion for the most economically car from toyota (a very noisy Yaris) it's worth every inch of deadening, I have a couple stories that I will tell later as a user.
> 
> 
> .


Well if you didn't test on the same road, same weather, same speeds, same tire pressures (preferably same tires/wear level) then the readings don't offer a real comparison.
But I like the theory that you can make it worse with just CLD. SPL rigs use CLD to make it louder inside after all. I really have to re-visit my MLV at some point.

- D


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## derickveliz

don_chuwish said:


> Well if you didn't test on the same road, same weather, same speeds, same tire pressures (preferably same tires/wear level) then the readings don't offer a real comparison.
> But I like the theory that you can make it worse with just CLD. SPL rigs use CLD to make it louder inside after all. I really have to re-visit my MLV at some point.
> 
> - D


Yes, it's not fair.

But the other day I was on the road, my brother called me and after the first 30 seconds of conversation he asked me...

*"Did you get a new phone?"*

I said *"No.... why?"*

*"it sounds so clear! where are you?"*

*"I'm driving on the highway at 70 mph"*

Yes it's possible to talk over the phone with out yelling in a Yaris.

.


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## don_chuwish

LOL! Cool.

Any trouble getting the carpet to fit right? Mine's very tightly form fitted and made it difficult to get much MLV under it.

- D


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## derickveliz

don_chuwish said:


> LOL! Cool.
> 
> Any trouble getting the carpet to fit right? Mine's very tightly form fitted and made it difficult to get much MLV under it.
> 
> - D


Yes, it gets very hard. I manage to put a complete layer of MLV all across the floor and wheel wells, but the carpet didn't like it. Much better to do it in hot summer days!

.


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## Rudeboy

derickveliz said:


> Talking about layers I just added one MORE!
> 
> *Radiant Barrier*
> 
> I'm putting this along the center channel and other areas after applying CLD Tiles and before CCF adn MLV, I've been driving with no center console, bare metal and I can tell it gets HOT!:evil: the exhaust pipe runs too close in this area; the other day I had a Hershey chocolate about 4 inches above, and it melted!
> 
> I guess this heat going inside the cabin it's good in winter, but not good in summer, any way one more barrier to make the noisy work harder! Also my *amps don't appreciate extra heat!*


That's a great tools. I've had guys with performance vehicles use it to great effect. It also seems to do a good job on the roof in dark cars in sunny climates.


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## HondAudio

derickveliz said:


> Yes, it gets very hard. I manage to put a complete layer of *MLV* all across the floor and wheel wells, but the carpet didn't like it. Much better to do it in hot summer days!
> 
> .


Is that what the off-white sheets are?


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## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> Is that what the off-white sheets are?


Not really,

MLV is black and goes on top of the ccfoam.

CCFoam is light beige, and yes they are guilty as well for making the carpet really mad.


.

MLV...


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## Mirage_Man

derickveliz said:


>


Please tell me you used a tripod for that picture?


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## derickveliz

Mirage_Man said:


> Please tell me you used a tripod for that picture?


Sorry, no tripod :worried:


.


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## teenkertoy

For the MLV panels in the photo, it's hard to see if the seams are sealed. Did you glue them together to form a continuous sheet? Also, did you seal them against the car around the edge of the panels?


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## derickveliz

teenkertoy said:


> For the MLV panels in the photo, it's hard to see if the seams are sealed. Did you glue them together to form a continuous sheet? Also, did you seal them against the car around the edge of the panels?



In big areas I didn't seal the seams, just overlapping 3-4 inches. In small areas I did with Vinyl Cement.










No I didn't seal them against the car around the edge of the panels. 

It's a sound barrier, it doesn't have to be sealed tight like a vapor barrier.

.


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## HondAudio

derickveliz said:


> Not really,
> 
> MLV is black and goes on top of the ccfoam.
> 
> CCFoam is light beige, and yes they are guilty as well for making the carpet really mad.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> MLV...


So you're using CLD, then carpet foam, then closed-cell foam, THEN mass-loaded vinyl? I'm sure the deadening is worth it, but how much more is your car going to weigh? 

I hope you're putting a Camry engine in there


----------



## JWPrendergast

Fantastic build, great pictures. This looks better than many professional jobs.


----------



## Mirage_Man

derickveliz said:


> Sorry, no tripod :worried:
> 
> 
> .


Damn you must have a steady hand! 1/15sec would not be that crisp if I hand held :laugh:.


----------



## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> So you're using CLD, then carpet foam, then closed-cell foam, THEN mass-loaded vinyl? I'm sure the deadening is worth it, but how much more is your car going to weigh?
> 
> I hope you're putting a Camry engine in there


Including sub-box and amps, *about 250 to 300 pounds,* is like having somebody commuting with me and some groceries all the time. *I did modify the suspension*, about 1.5 inches lower, stiffer springs, sway bar and -1.5 camber in the rear axle.

No need of a Camry engine, I'm still hitting *43 MPG* in summer and 37 MPG in winter Driving at (75 mph commuting 122 miles/day). It's more stable at highway speeds, takes corners like my brothers Subaru STI and accelerates as good as my Corolla and *less noisier!*

It does makes a difference when *fully loaded with 4 people.* But that never happens, *so I'm Good!*



















.


----------



## derickveliz

JWPrendergast said:


> Fantastic build, great pictures. This looks better than many professional jobs.


Thanks JW! 

It may not be professional, but I'm having a lot of fun. Once I took my car out from the Dealer, that was the last time I've been there. I do all my oil services and more!

.


----------



## derickveliz

Mirage_Man said:


> Damn you must have a steady hand! 1/15sec would not be that crisp if I hand held :laugh:.


It's the camera, an Old Nikon D50 

.


----------



## derickveliz

derickveliz said:


> I'm afraid not with that level of complexity that you are talking about, but...
> 
> We did some testing with a cheap dB reader.
> 
> A friend of mine (in CA) with another Yaris (same model) he did his with a complete layer of Mat. Long story-short... his readings where higher after deadening, we came with the conclusion of the Guitar effect (that's how I called).
> 
> Here is where I figure out that the clue was to block the noise with MLV. I asked him to send me his dB reader and I did a few readings with my car, been much lower readings than his, even with my car not 100% deadened.
> 
> I'll dig the videos and post them here soon. His readings where around mids 80's and mine in the low 70's
> 
> But all this is relative, in my opinion for the most economically car from toyota (a very noisy Yaris) it's worth every inch of deadening.


Here are the videos I was talking about:

*Ok, my intention was to record video clips at highway speeds, please don't do this at home LOL*

Sorry for the crappy video quality 

This video is driving at 70 mph (cruise control) no center console, no front passenger's seat either, the front left wheel well untreated and* winter tires!*





*This video is at 80 MPH... *



.



*It's hard to have a sense of scale with db (decibels) so I thought about what if I open the window at 80mph? almost 10 db more, but to my ears it was twice as much louder. It's interesting how these measurements work, we are used to grab a ruler and measure, but with decibels I guess it doesn't work the same way. 

enjoy *

.


.
:w00t:


----------



## derickveliz

Some panel treatment at the B-pillars:

This is how it looks when you take the panel out...












After some CLD Tiles












The panel with some Mat and some Ensolite on top...












The panel with a full layer of MLV...






















Some ensolite on top of the MLV to finish the treatment... BTW I didn't put it on a scale but the trim panel at least double it's weight!


----------



## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


> *It's hard to have a sense of scale with db (decibels) so I thought about what if I open the window at 80mph? almost 10 db more, but to my ears it was twice as much louder. It's interesting how these measurements work, we are used to grab a ruler and measure, but with decibels I guess it doesn't work the same way.
> 
> enjoy*


*

Well actually, 10dBs more is perceived by the ear as twice as loud. So everything is correct  

Kelvin*


----------



## derickveliz

Adam, a DIY_Audio member was so kind to build the rings for my L6's check them out! The L6's will go in kick panels venting the drivers to the sides and down the floor.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

subwoofery said:


> derickveliz said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's hard to have a sense of scale with db (decibels) so I thought about what if I open the window at 80mph? almost 10 db more, but to my ears it was twice as much louder. It's interesting how these measurements work, we are used to grab a ruler and measure, but with decibels I guess it doesn't work the same way.
> 
> 
> 
> Well actually, 10dBs more is perceived by the ear as twice as loud. So everything is correct
> 
> Kelvin
Click to expand...

lol yeah... what a coincidence

Decibel (Loudness) Comparison Chart

now deaden the windows (especially windshield) to subtract another 10dbs...


----------



## derickveliz

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> now deaden the windows (especially windshield) to subtract another 10dbs...


I thought about that too, if I could only have some one* make a thicker windshield* for the Yaris!


.       



.


----------



## papacueball

I'm interested to see what you do with that kick area, as it looks similar to mine and I'm a little baffled (pun intended!) as to how to get the space needed without getting in the way of the clutch.


----------



## draft6969

There are so many great installs on this site!!! looks great so far.


----------



## Afronaut

Very good work...


----------



## mtbwrx

Not sure if they still do or not, but Radio Shack used to make a very nice and decent DB meter (digital) that worked A weighted or C weighted.
I have used that in past cars to measure quiet at highway
and measure volume, outside the car with the wireless remote.

I would hang it over the headrest at 'ear' level.
Nice install. Nice documentation.


----------



## derickveliz

papacueball said:


> I'm interested to see what you do with that kick area, as it looks similar to mine and I'm a little baffled (pun intended!) as to how to get the space needed without getting in the way of the clutch.


There is enough space down there, my *friend and mentor* also building a Yaris just installed a pair of *HAT L8s*, was him who recommend me the L6s, I tested the rings and drove for about 400 miles with out any issues. Well I'm loosing the dead pedal but I've been training my self for several month now, and I'm Ok with it!

This is how it looks down there...










.


----------



## sqcomp

This looks familiar?



















Now, what I'd do is to lay down a couple layers of glass down on that panel...then mark out where the hole is. When you do this, there are several ways we can go. Let me know when you get there.

Remember, this is a slow process for a reason. Don't get into a hurry.

On a related note, the L8 SE ships on March 1st...I'll be redoing my kicks just for these speakers. We can bounce off each other if you'd like on the kick build.


----------



## derickveliz

sqcomp said:


> This looks familiar?
> Now, what I'd do is to lay down a couple layers of glass down on that panel...then mark out where the hole is. When you do this, there are several ways we can go. Let me know when you get there. Remember, this is a slow process for a reason. Don't get into a hurry.
> On a related note, the L8 SE ships on March 1st...I'll be redoing my kicks just for these speakers. We can bounce off each other if you'd like on the kick build.


This is where I'm now... 


Here are the pictures of what I did a couple of nights ago...







































.


----------



## sqcomp

That looks like a good start. Throw me some pics of the glass. My glass is a half inch thick if that says anything...


----------



## draft6969

looks good so far. i have always been scared to do a glass. dont know why. i guess ill never learn unless i just do it.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

draft6969 said:


> i have always been scared to do a glass. dont know why. i guess ill never learn unless i just do it.


it's simple: 1" thick mass-loaded vinyl + epoxy


----------



## derickveliz

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> it's simple: 1" thick mass-loaded vinyl + epoxy


*For the kick-panels? * 

.


----------



## Kenreau

Awesome job on both the custom fabrication work and documenting your progress with photo log.:thumbsup:

Kenreau


----------



## adamrobt

Very nice work here. My chick use to have a Toyota Echo with the variable valve timing and dual over head cam. It was beast in it's own right. These cars are so tiny, I'm interested to see how you tackle the sub stage


----------



## diebenkorn

Where did you get your dash mat? It's one of the nicer ones I've seen.


----------



## Golf Echo

Those sphere's are awesome....Never thought of doing that.


----------



## slpery

You make those spheres look easy. I was just wondering why you vented them into the a pillars? 4.5" spheres should give close to 0.75 litres. Of course with a little shaving for shape, you would lose some of that. Would that be the reason?
Im looking at putting some 3" fullrange in and will borrow your ideas. Also what did you aim each speaker toward?
Sorry for the noobe questions.


----------



## f150fx4

Awesome work. Super fabricating.

George


----------



## derickveliz

diebenkorn said:


> Where did you get your dash mat? It's one of the nicer ones I've seen.


It's the Ltd. Edition DashMat just follow the LINK


.


----------



## derickveliz

slpery said:


> You make those spheres look easy. I was just wondering why you vented them into the a pillars? 4.5" spheres should give close to 0.75 litres. Of course with a little shaving for shape, you would lose some of that. Would that be the reason?
> Im looking at putting some 3" fullrange in and will borrow your ideas. Also what did you aim each speaker toward?
> Sorry for the noobe questions.


Thanks, and don't worry, I'm a noobe too so asking is the best way to gain knowledge.

My HL-70 are IB (Infinite Baffle AKA=Free Air) or at least 1 litre of internal space, that's is why I vented them into the a-pillars.

Aiming... well I learn from experience...

My mids are aiming to the middle of the front seats (kind of a 45 degrees from the sides) *that it's wrong*, makes my stage right in front of my face and it's not parallel (kind of like a "V" shape), I feel more like "In Stage" than "Front Stage" I'm about to re-do them almost facing each other.


.


----------



## derickveliz

adamrobt said:


> Very nice work here. My chick use to have a Toyota Echo with the variable valve timing and dual over head cam. It was beast in it's own right. These cars are so tiny, I'm interested to see how you tackle the sub stage


Thanks, Yea! this little cars are awesome!

Sub stage...

Lots of thinking around here, I had my IDQ12 in a sealed box, moving around all over the car, trunk, back seats, front seat, in front of the passenger's seat and aiming in all kind of directions, some really good some very bad.

*The worst,* in the middle of the back seat facing forward! I was embarrassed of my IDQ

*The OK..*. in the trunk near the rear seat in the middle facing up towards the rear deck, I took the OEM speakers out so the BASS could pass towards the cabin. This option is good for output! my hair tickles but too much on the SPL side, and I rather have SQ

*TE BEST!...* in front of the passenger's seat facing back, here where "FRONT STAGE" in capitals make sense! That is why I'm looking for a sub in the front. Many ideas in my mind so far, but I'm 100% now that I'm going to stick my sub up FRONT! SQ is sweet!

.


----------



## m R g S r

adamrobt said:


> Very nice work here. My chick use to have a Toyota Echo with the variable valve timing and dual over head cam. It was beast in it's own right. These cars are so tiny, I'm interested to see how you tackle the sub stage


sorry but i dont think echo and beast should be used in the same sentence unless its an echo body on a tube chassis car 

OP:
everything looks great so far! good job!


----------



## Kenreau

JWPrendergast said:


> Fantastic build, great pictures. This looks better than many professional jobs.


 x2.  Excellent work and posting log of your progress.

Kenreau


----------



## ryomanx

i'm been skimming through this build and it's awesome! i'm kinda feeling this MLV stuff but my question is , does it go by any other names. i'm pretty sure if i go to the local hardware store, nobody is going to know what i'm talking about.


----------



## derickveliz

ryomanx said:


> i'm been skimming through this build and it's awesome! i'm kinda feeling this MLV stuff but my question is , does it go by any other names. i'm pretty sure if i go to the local hardware store, nobody is going to know what i'm talking about.


*Thank you! ryomanx*

*M*ass
*L*oaded
*V*inyl

It's used in construction as a "sound barrier" try acoustical materials.

I ussually get it from SDS or : SOUNDPROOFING & More Soundproofing! Super Soundproofing Co.


.


----------



## ryomanx

derickveliz said:


> *Thank you! ryomanx*
> 
> *M*ass
> *L*oaded
> *V*inyl
> 
> It's used in construction as a "sound barrier" try acoustical materials.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Cool! I was thinking, no scratch that. I am going to redo my set up. One part of the revamp is the handle proper sound deadening. I get a good price for the "Chip Foose Favorite" so I will be using but i like this idea of using it sparingly, maybe actual the proper way to do it. I'm sure I'm going to incorporate that MLV at the least.


----------



## Vitty

Wow, excellent work!


----------



## Durry

man i got to be sincere, i dont like toyotas that much

but i love your install and your yaris,they both look so nice ....



Clean install....


----------



## derickveliz

Durry said:


> man i got to be sincere, i dont like toyotas that much
> 
> but i love you install and your yaris...they both look so nice ....
> 
> 
> 
> Clean install....




Thanks Durry... Gracias!


----------



## ryomanx

ryomanx said:


> Cool! I was thinking, no scratch that. I am going to redo my set up. One part of the revamp is the handle proper sound deadening. I get a good price for the "Chip Foose Favorite" so I will be using but i like this idea of using it sparingly, maybe actual the proper way to do it. I'm sure I'm going to incorporate that MLV at the least.





derickveliz said:


> *Thank you! ryomanx*
> 
> *M*ass
> *L*oaded
> *V*inyl
> 
> It's used in construction as a "sound barrier" try acoustical materials.
> 
> I ussually get it from Sound Deadener Showdown - Your Source for Sound Deadening Products and Information SDS or www.soundproofing.org SOUNDPROOFING & More Soundproofing! Super Soundproofing Co
> 
> 
> .


i went to the local hardware store. it's become clear to me this town has never heard of soundproofing. dude tried to sell me some insulation for the house. not even the new stuff. the pink stuff! anyway, i found a local supplier of MLV with some out cut rolls for the low. they're 90mins to 2hrs away. I'd say that's local when considering how much this stuff can weigh. once again, thanks for putting me on to it. i think it's going to do what i want to do without burying everything in dynamat.


----------



## derickveliz

ryomanx said:


> i went to the local hardware store. it's become clear to me this town has never heard of soundproofing. dude tried to sell me some insulation for the house.


Yeah, they know nothing about this stuff.



ryomanx said:


> i think it's going to do what i want to do without burying everything in dynamat.


Yes it will, that's how it works.


.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

ryomanx said:


> i went to the local hardware store. it's become clear to me this town has never heard of soundproofing. dude tried to sell me some insulation for the house.


haha, i asked the local sound shop for mlv and he's like "what you trying to do" im like "sound proof" he goes back and gets dynamat. i look at him like :>|


----------



## ryomanx

ryomanx said:


> Cool! I was thinking, no scratch that. I am going to redo my set up. One part of the revamp is the handle proper sound deadening. I get a good price for the "Chip Foose Favorite" so I will be using but i like this idea of using it sparingly, maybe actual the proper way to do it. I'm sure I'm going to incorporate that MLV at the least.





derickveliz said:


> Yeah, they know nothing about this stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it will, that's how it works.
> 
> 
> .


Can you going to more detail about your CLD method or is it already in the post? I'm trying to understand the process exactly.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

ryomanx said:


> Can you going to more detail about your CLD method or is it already in the post? I'm trying to understand the process exactly.


there's nothing about CLDing here at ....wait, n/m I think there might be something about it in one (or a thousand) of the forum threads.


----------



## ryomanx

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> there's nothing about CLDing here at ....wait, n/m I think there might be something about it in one (or a thousand) of the forum threads.


ha! that's what I get for being lazy! (Shame! Shame!) i'll look it up.


----------



## ryomanx

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> haha, i asked the local sound shop for mlv and he's like "what you trying to do" im like "sound proof" he goes back and gets dynamat. i look at him like :>|


Yeah... sometimes we do that cause it's all we have in the bay. sorry.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

ryomanx said:


> Yeah... sometimes we do that cause it's all we have in the bay. sorry.


this guy seemed like he really didn't know what i was talking about though, haha. i explained it and he was like "huh" 

btw, here's two good sites with info about and material for CLDing

Sound Deadening Materials for Noise Reduction from Second Skin

Sound Deadener Showdown - Your Source for Sound Deadening Products and Information

you won't go wrong with either. I tried the later with great results. i'd like to give the former a shot on another vehicle eventually.


----------



## ryomanx

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> this guy seemed like he really didn't know what i was talking about though, haha. i explained it and he was like "huh"
> 
> btw, here's two good sites with info about and material for CLDing
> 
> Sound Deadening Materials for Noise Reduction from Second Skin
> 
> Sound Deadener Showdown - Your Source for Sound Deadening Products and Information
> 
> you won't go wrong with either. I tried the later with great results. i'd like to give the former a shot on another vehicle eventually.


i'll admit, when derick said, "MLV," i was like, "...." once i found out that what it was it hit me. a lot of companies have a similar product. they just call it something different and it may be slightly different. i've been to those sites and they were helpful. i found a factory that makes the stuff just 2 hours away from! well, my "partner in projects" found it. my plan is to use dynamat as the first layer just because i have easy access to it. lay down the MLV and them the CCF on top of it. ...so basically i'm jacking derick's style like we might be unintentionally jacking this thread!


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

ryomanx said:


> i'll admit, when derick said, "MLV," i was like, "...." once i found out that what it was it hit me. a lot of companies have a similar product. they just call it something different and it may be slightly different. i've been to those sites and they were helpful. i found a factory that makes the stuff just 2 hours away from! well, my "partner in projects" found it. my plan is to use dynamat as the first layer just because i have easy access to it. lay down the MLV and them the CCF on top of it. ...so basically i'm jacking derick's style like we might be unintentionally jacking this thread!


yeah mlv is like the basic/generic name, so if a person is used to some other name, they might not know. but damn, 2 hours away...lucky duck! I've been looking EVERYWHERE within a 5 hour radius, and have found nothing. i'm sure something is around, just no one wants to waste time with a small order, compared to their big industrial clients. it would be rad to find wholesale mlv for pickup within 3 hours. o well.

take note that CCF is also used to "decouple" MLV from CLD. don't know if really makes a big difference whether it comes before (decouple) or after mlv mat though. could just try both if ya got enough stuff for it, and it can fit. i'm actually in the middle of my own sizable diy project, and will have my mlv in this weekend (after 6 months of research,planning, ordering). I'm chomping at the bit to get this all set up finally.

see what works best for you. and as they say, it's the voyage, not the destination. im having a good ol time learnin and workin on the ol' wheeled tincan. good luck and enjoy.


----------



## Rudeboy

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> take note that CCF is also used to "decouple" MLV from CLD. don't know if really makes a big difference whether it comes before (decouple) or after mlv mat though. could just try both if ya got enough stuff for it, and it can fit. i'm actually in the middle of my own sizable diy project, and will have my mlv in this weekend (after 6 months of research,planning, ordering). I'm chomping at the bit to get this all set up finally.


Wherever possible you want the CCF between the sheet metal and MLV. The doors are the only place you may have to compromise. If you were to lay MLV on the floor and then cover it with with CCF, you'd be compromising the performance of the barrier and really just adding carpet padding.


----------



## teenkertoy

Rudeboy said:


> Wherever possible you want the CCF between the sheet metal and MLV. The doors are the only place you may have to compromise. If you were to lay MLV on the floor and then cover it with with CCF, you'd be compromising the performance of the barrier and really just adding carpet padding.


Yep, agreed. The "decouple" everyone refers to means the sheet metal's physical vibrations will not be directly transferred to the MLV and absorbed somewhat by the foam, just like bumps in the road are absorbed by shock absorbers in the car before they reach the car's frame.

The other nice thing the foam does is reduce airborne noise two times. Once as the noise approaches the MLV from the outside, and once more as it bounces off the MLV and returns outward again. This may seem silly to absorb sound that is radiating outward, but if outward is back into your door cavity, it is likely to bounce back inward again, and again.


----------



## HondAudio

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> Sound Deadening Materials for Noise Reduction from Second Skin
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I just remembered that Second Skin is in AZ. I could potentially pick things up, instead of having them shipped. Do they allow that?
> 
> *edit* Whoops... I just noticed that there's a ton of dealers that I can go to, as well


----------



## ryomanx

hmm found two types of MLV, reinforced and non reinforce. I wonder if one i easier to bend and flex of the contour a surface.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

ryomanx said:


> hmm found two types of MLV, reinforced and non reinforce. I wonder if one i easier to bend and flex of the contour a surface.


what is it reinforced with? 

for auto use, I'd go regular non-reinforced. reinforced might be aimed for installation behind drywall...or something.


----------



## Rudeboy

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> what is it reinforced with?
> 
> for auto use, I'd go regular non-reinforced. reinforced might be aimed for installation behind drywall...or something.


That's correct. Reinforced has fabric pressed into the vinyl and is intended to be hung like a curtain. Reinforced is much less flexible and more expensive.


----------



## ryomanx

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> what is it reinforced with?
> 
> for auto use, I'd go regular non-reinforced. reinforced might be aimed for installation behind drywall...or something.


Reinforced with a scrim in the middle.


----------



## derickveliz

The basic treatment to reduce road noise is:

*25%* of a flat metal panel cover with *CLD Tiles* or Mat
then a layer *CCFoam* 1/8" or *1/4" is better*
and last a Full layer of *Mass Loaded Vinyl (1 pound per square foot)*

You'll be *happy.*

.


----------



## swong46

did you glass the spheres or? whats that polycrylic for?


----------



## diebenkorn

derickveliz said:


> It's the Ltd. Edition DashMat just follow the LINK
> 
> 
> .


Thanks!


----------



## derickveliz

swong46 said:


> did you glass the spheres or? whats that polycrylic for?


I did glass them post # 3, I put a small layer of polycrylic on the foam spheres before glassing, I don't think it made a difference though.

. this was the first time I played with glass


----------



## ryomanx

derickveliz said:


> I did glass them post # 3, I put a small layer of polycrylic on the foam spheres before glassing, I don't think it made a difference though.
> 
> . this was the first time I played with glass


your first was better than mine  i got "glassing" envy.


----------



## anthonyott99

Those A-pillar pods are Freakin Sweet dude !!!!! Great Work !!!!!!


----------



## derickveliz

anthonyott99 said:


> Those A-pillar pods are Freakin Sweet dude !!!!! Great Work !!!!!!


Thank you,

I see you have a PowerBass avatar, one of my amps it's a powerbass, and so far so good, any imput from your end?


----------



## leepersc

For what it's worth, I have 7 of the Powerbass 'ASA' series of amps and I love them! Clean, reliable power. I've never had one problem with any of them. I got in on the Powerbass stuff a couple of years ago before the prices got where they are now. Not overly expensive and definitely worth the $ per watt ratio. 

ASA Series | PowerBass USA

Used to be able to get the PB stuff here: http://stores.ebay.com/thedeepdiscount , they no longer carry the brand. That's to bad man, cheap prices there for sure!


----------



## papacueball

Anything happening with the kicks?


----------



## tlow98

how is it that your yaris makes all the other 2010's look like utter garbage...lids?..is all the rest stock. That first pic of your car is awesome!

incredible system, but that really goes without saying


----------



## derickveliz

leepersc said:


> For what it's worth, I have 7 of the Powerbass 'ASA' series of amps and I love them! Clean, reliable power. I've never had one problem with any of them.


Yeah, so far so good with mine! powering Mids-Tweets-and Sub










D.


----------



## derickveliz

papacueball said:


> Anything happening with the kicks?


Kicks are on hold for now, why?...

I've been amazed on SQ cars, and lots of them have a sub in front, so I told my self... what if I put my IDQ infront of the front seat just to hear/feel and experiment my self... long story short:

Sounds AMAZING!

I'm not going to put my BASS behind me, it has to be in front. So I'm not any expert here so I started looking for small subs that could go under the dashboard. 

This translates into that no more kicks, the L6s will go in the doors replacing my wanabe mid-bass speakers, and leaving room for the new min-sub.

So I'm getting a i6SW in a small vented box of 0.35 cubic feet (at least that's the plan)

I6SW:













IDQ12 in different positions: been the best facing to the rear and to the front, when facing up it was TERRIBLE!































at first one of the ideas was 2 min-subs in small sealed boxes creating a subfloor for the passenger's area.










other ideas:





























Some inspiration ideas from another DIYMA member:



















Here is the direct LINK


So lots of thinking here, we'll see how it goes!

.


----------



## derickveliz

tlow98 said:


> how is it that your yaris makes all the other 2010's look like utter garbage...lids?..is all the rest stock. That first pic of your car is awesome!
> 
> incredible system, but that really goes without saying


Easy!

Lowering springs
Wheels & Tires
Eye lids
Front Grill
35% Tint

Here is a Before & After:










Some other stuff but you can't see it just feel it!

Rear Sway Bar
Short Shift Kit
LEDs Outside + inside
HID high + low 5K 
HID fog lamps 3K

And then... the Audio system.

.


----------



## 4ofakind

I like the subwoofer idea in the Porsche above. 

Here is another link for some more inspiration. I'm not saying you should rebuild your dash, but your leg room is already at a premium.

Mal


----------



## labcoat22

derickveliz

The grill and headlight trim really make makes the look of the car.

R-

Have you considered under seat subs and or a small array of small subs


----------



## simplicityinsound

i will say about the GT3, the sub is there because thats where the stock bose sub location is and the customer did not want any room taken up behind the seat. it sounds pretty good, but i would say the bottom end extension lost on a small sub/enclosure is not worth it on a car like yours. unless you can do a true 10" with decent airspace upfront.

while it is true that many people have sq cars with subs upfront, there are just as many great sounding cars wiht subs in the back 

b


----------



## sqcomp

^Whelp...There you have it. I guess we shouldn't bother trying. There's NO way a small sub will have low end extention in your car.

Really?!? That's a bit fatalistic. Ever try something new? Damn man, support Derick's idea.


----------



## knifedag007

nicest yaris ive ever seen...i told my self i could never drive a car with less HP than my lawn mower but i think id take yours:thumbsup:


----------



## derickveliz

4ofakind said:


> I like the subwoofer idea in the Porsche above.
> 
> Here is another link for some more inspiration. I'm not saying you should rebuild your dash, but your leg room is already at a premium.
> 
> Mal


I'm not capable of doing some thing like that, or paying to do it. *The inspiration is great *and we are working some thing out.


----------



## derickveliz

labcoat22 said:


> derickveliz
> 
> The grill and headlight trim really make makes the look of the car.
> 
> R-
> 
> Have you considered under seat subs and or a small array of small subs


Thanks

Yea! the grill and eye lids was the fist couple mods I did. Lowering the car added a Bold look!

Under the seats idea it may be too close and would shake the seat, the nice thing about the sub in front is that the seat doesn't vibrate like when is in the trunk, *with the sub up front you* feel the bass in your chest, your hair, your face, your body and *feels like it's coming out of the Mids *it feels so good, I couldn't believe it until I tried it my self. 

The idea of a small array of subs was on the list of possibilities!


.


----------



## derickveliz

simplicityinsound said:


> i would say the bottom end extension lost on a small sub/enclosure is not worth it on a car like yours. unless you can do a true 10" with decent airspace upfront.
> 
> while it is true that many people have sq cars with subs upfront, there are just as many great sounding cars wiht subs in the back
> 
> b


That is why choosing a really good "mini woofer(s)" is so important. 

.


----------



## derickveliz

sqcomp said:


> ^Whelp...There you have it. I guess we shouldn't bother trying. There's NO way a small sub will have low end extention in your car.
> 
> Really?!? That's a bit fatalistic. Ever try something new? Damn man, support Derick's idea.


Thanks 
I will be comparing the *I6SW to my IDQ12*, (I know the little 6" woofer it's not competition to the IDQ12 but...) I'm not that guy who likes to show off 2 blocks away (I used to be 15 years ago), I like *Sound Quality* at moderate volume, *I may be wrong*, I'm just playing and trying to achieve *GREAT SOUND*. 

Think about it... our cars are *so small compare to our living rooms,* I know there are many other issues but at home my sound system fills a big room with bass, and sounds great! my little subwoofer box at home has two 6" woofers. 

In my little Yaris I had to low down my IDQ a lot (when up front) , *gains are way down.* With a good "MIDBASS" the subwoofer only needs to fill in the lower notes *and with a quiet ride I'm not asking for a lot.* I can drive for 2 hours listening music at *moderate to high volume* and enjoying *great sound without fatigue.*

I know we can do it! and it's going to sound really good.
.


----------



## derickveliz

knifedag007 said:


> nicest yaris ive ever seen...i told my self i could never drive a car with less HP than my lawn mower but i think id take yours:thumbsup:


Thanks! 
I'm actually a *Taco-Yaris*, Toyota took my 1997 Tacoma with 140K miles and gave me $12K, that is why I end up with a Yaris...

Yes my Yaris only has 106HP and gives me back *39-43 MPG* but it's not a pig its very agile and it moves, it's a very nice car to drive and commute (after all the mods) on the High way *70-80mph it's a sweet quiet ride,* RPMs are very low, and of course I don't have a chance against a corolla or altima but *mine looks FASTER!*  5 speed manual T makes a big difference too!

.


----------



## AKMetal

nice clean work on those spheres man, and nice tilt shift as well


----------



## computerjlt

have you played with phase/delay on all your speakers vs. the sub?

i know it made a HUGE difference getting the delay jsut right between my 3-way comp and my subs.

my "midbass" right now is a bad joke but with the delay/phase just right everything blends together beautifully until the speakers i have in my doors that i'm using as midbasses run out of steam (which sadly is pretty quick )


----------



## 4ofakind

sqcomp said:


> ^Whelp...There you have it. I guess we shouldn't bother trying. There's NO way a small sub will have low end extention in your car.
> 
> Really?!? That's a bit fatalistic. Ever try something new? Damn man, support Derick's idea.


I don't think Bing was being fatalistic. He has done countless installations in various cars with many size restrictions. I think with his vast experience, he was just making shure the OP thought about all possibilities. There is give and take with every installation and if you are not aware of it you will always come short of your expectations.

Mal


----------



## derickveliz

AKMetal said:


> nice clean work on those spheres man, and nice tilt shift as well


Thank you!

.


----------



## derickveliz

computerjlt said:


> have you played with phase/delay on all your speakers vs. the sub?
> 
> i know it made a HUGE difference getting the delay jsut right between my 3-way comp and my subs.


Yes, my HU it's very easy to play with. Every time I moved the sub, I adjusted accordantly

And yes makes a big difference!

.


----------



## derickveliz

4ofakind said:


> he was just making shure the OP thought about all possibilities. There is give and take with every installation and if you are not aware of it you will always come short of your expectations.
> Mal


Thanks,

This is what I appreciate most, the experience of the professionals and their will to share and advice!

.


----------



## derickveliz

I went to a meeting and after I had to take my cousin back to his house, so I unplugged my IDQ moved it to the trunk (didn't connected back) and let him sit in the front seat.

I told him that there was no woofer in my system but I was going to turn my HU any way.

Then I set the *"listening position" to L and R,* (instead of L) then *I turn the volume a little bit and he was very impressed he insisted that I had a woofer some where behind the dash!*

I'm realizing that when your *Mid-Bass is strong and properly set,* some one who is not into Audio stuff, doesn't really needs a subwoofer.

D.


----------



## The Dude

Great build thread, excellent photos also. Just wondering what make/model camera(s) you use. Thanks.


----------



## derickveliz

The Dude said:


> Great build thread, excellent photos also. Just wondering what make/model camera(s) you use. Thanks.


Thank you,

Most of the time I'm shooting with my old Nikon D50










.


----------



## derickveliz

For aerial photography I'm using a Sony Cyber shot P200










.


----------



## The Dude

Good deal, thanks. Love the aerial shots. I am looking into getting into a DSLR, right now I use a Sony DSC-HX1. I dig the built in Pano mode.


----------



## derickveliz

The Dude said:


> Good deal, thanks. Love the aerial shots. I am looking into getting into a DSLR, right now I use a Sony DSC-HX1. I dig the built in Pano mode.


Thanks! Sony DSC-HX1 it's a Nice camera!

DSLRs are GREAT! "I love mine"

I like playing with Panoramic photos too...



















And some fun (with my other hobby and cameras)

LINK for PHOTOS!

LINK to VIDEO


.


----------



## derickveliz

Back into the Build....

My RCA cable from the HU to the amp (Sub-woofer signal) it's making noises, should change and and test.

Where is the best place to buy speaker cables? 

Waiting for a I6SW and some MDF rings to rebuild my front stage...


(o:


----------



## The Dude

Great pano shots, love the link to the R/C jet get together also. I will stop taking your thread off topic now.


----------



## crzygosu87

hey derickveliz - i just wanted to say that i love your setup with the mid and tweets in the sphere pods! I've been looking back at this thread multiple times for the past several weeks now, and after experimenting with a number of different setups, I've decided to see if I can replicate what you've done (that is of course if you don't mind hahha)

I was just wondering though, for creating the tweeter pods, it seems you were able to get it to form a PERFECT sphere using resin over a styrofoam ball ... but after thinking about it, I just couldn't figure out how you were able to get such a perfect sphere using resin and mat ... any hints or tips would be greatly appreciated  hahha thanks in advance! and love the photography! (I'm a canon shooter myself)

EDIT: Just saw your most recent post above - I've bought all of my wires and rca's from knukonceptz.com ... not sure what their reputation is on the boards, but I haven't had a problem with them


----------



## derickveliz

crzygosu87 said:


> hey derickveliz - i just wanted to say that i love your setup with the mid and tweets in the sphere pods! I've been looking back at this thread multiple times for the past several weeks now, and after experimenting with a number of different setups, I've decided to see if I can replicate what you've done (that is of course if you don't mind hahha)
> 
> I was just wondering though, for creating the tweeter pods, it seems you were able to get it to form a PERFECT sphere using resin over a styrofoam ball ... but after thinking about it, I just couldn't figure out how you were able to get such a perfect sphere using resin and mat ... any hints or tips would be greatly appreciated  hahha thanks in advance! and love the photography! (I'm a canon shooter myself)
> 
> EDIT: Just saw your most recent post above - I've bought all of my wires and rca's from knukonceptz.com ... not sure what their reputation is on the boards, but I haven't had a problem with them


*Thank you,
I don't mind at all.*

I used *5 minute epoxy* on the foam spheres before adding resin, din't use mat! just 3 or 4 *layers of resin on top of the epoxy.*

I was between *canon and nikon, *some one told me... *"both are great cameras, go to a store and feel them, and pick the one fit's and feels better for you"* can't go wrong with either one.

Thanks for the info about the wires, I'll check their website!

.


----------



## ErinH

derickveliz said:


> For aerial photography I'm using a Sony Cyber shot P200
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


hold up... you're on the ground and you've taken an aerial shot. Dude, details! 

Makes me think of the balloon/camera/gps method that gets shots of the atmosphere. That DIY is certainly at the top of my list. 


Oh, umm.... nice work?


----------



## derickveliz

bikinpunk said:


> hold up... you're on the ground and you've taken an aerial shot. Dude, details!
> 
> Makes me think of the balloon/camera/gps method that gets shots of the atmosphere. That DIY is certainly at the top of my list.
> 
> 
> Oh, umm.... nice work?


*Thank you!*

Yes, it's a *flying camera!*

I've been doing this for more than 12 years now, it started as a hobby but turn into a job, I use small electric rc airplanes, I attach a small camera on board and fly around targets taking pictures. 

*Here is a copy of an article from the local news paper...*










Acton, Mass. - As a boy growing up in Guatemala, Derick Veliz fell in love with airplanes by watching his uncle fly his gasoline-powered control line planes.

Then, when he was 12, his father gave him a camera for his birthday and he quickly developed a passion for photography.
In college, he studied architecture.

After moving to Acton MA in 1998, and working for The Office of Michael Rossenfeld, Veliz found a way to combine his three passions into a cutting edge method of aerial photography.
By strapping a digital camera to a foam and balsa wood plane, and using a remote control device with a mechanical arm to work the camera, Veliz, 36, takes aerial photographs of architectural projects. His method saves the cost of having to hire a professional photographer to fly over the site in a plane or helicopter.

Veliz, who now works for Dario Designs architectural firm in Marlboro, started out experimenting by strapping a disposable camera into one of his planes, requiring him to land and rewind the film after each shot. He soon switched to a regular camera, and eventually to a digital camera.

His modified plane looks a little like a high school science project. The camera sits in a homemade wooden box strapped into the plane’s miniature cockpit via two are three rubber bands. Wires connect the mechanical arm to the antenna.

Veliz also participated in the town’s successful attempt to set the Guinness Book of World Records’ record for the largest human flag, using one of his planes to take an aerial photograph of residents holding colored panels to look like an enormous flag at NARA Park.

Veliz spoke to The Beacon about combining his passion, his hobby and his career.

*Q: How did you get into remote control planes?*
A: Since I was a little kid my uncle flew control line airplanes. So since I was 4 or 5, I was in contact with airplanes. For some reason I just liked airplanes. Then when I was a teenager we moved and not too far from our house there was a flying field for remote control airplanes. We were on a tight budget, our family, and so the only good thing to do over the weekend was to go and watch the guys flying their airplanes. Then when I was 12 my dad gave me a camera for my birthday. I started studying architecture and I used my camera to do homework and all that stuff. I used it a lot doing my thesis and projects and reports and all that stuff. When I became an architect I moved over here and I started working for a small architecture firm here in Acton. After a while I said I have a little money in my pocket, all my life I’d lived with a small budget and now I had some extra money so I said I need a hobby — oh, airplanes!

*Q: How did photography come into the picture?*
A: I bought my first airplane, I put it together and I started learning to fly. My first plane, I crashed it. I’d fly for three seconds and crash it. Eventually I learned to fly. As soon as I was comfortable flying the plane I thought what if I could just put a camera on this plane. That’d be very neat to have pictures of our projects... I went out to one of our projects and took pictures over the weekend and then I brought them into the office and said, “Hey, look at this.” They liked it and they asked me to do the same thing for all the other projects... I was doing a demo for the Museum of Science so I pull out the plane and I pull out the camera and I noticed that there was no film. I did have a digital camera so I said this is when I have to try it.

*Q: So you went digital by necessity?*
A: Yeah, I bought it, like, two weeks before. I was a little bit skeptical because digital wasn’t really ready for that. But I had to show this guy something. I put the digital camera in, I went up, I came down, I looked at the pictures and they were great. That’s how I moved into digital. In that transition I think I put together all three of my passions. I started with the airplanes as a kid, just the whole thing about flying and being against gravity — really, it’s something. Then my photography passion came when I got a camera and I was crazy taking pictures, and then architecture. Then putting them all together I came out with something nice, it’s fun. I call it art. They all come together. They merge in a very artistic way... I accomplished a very good quality with photography. It’s very competitive with a professional photographer on a full-scale airplane or helicopter and sometimes even better. In my old office we had clients who at the end of the project they would hire a professional photographer to take aerial pictures, and my boss would say, “Hey, Derick, can you go and take some pictures?” And at the end of the day, apples to apples, they picked my pictures. I can get really low and close to the targets as opposed to an airplane or helicopter.

*Q: So you have some advantages over some of the more traditional methods of aerial photography?*
A: Yes. The other thing is it’s a lot safer, not only for me that I keep my feet on the ground, but after 9/11 restrictions are very, very hard... And if you’re in a residential area and you’ve got a helicopter flying above, everybody’s going to get freaked out and call 911. With the plane it’s electric, it’s clean, it’s quiet. Most of the time, 90 percent of people won’t even notice.

*Q: Are there and disadvantages?*
A: The big disadvantage is, for example, if a client wants one of those huge poster-sized images. I can’t put a big camera on the plane. For that, they can hire a photographer to go up on an airplane.

*Q: After you started flying, how long was it before you got good at it?*
A: Probably about six months where I was very into it trying to get the most of the hobby, get the most of the cameras and get the most of the targets. Now, eight years after, I look back and I can see how the pictures progressed. My degree of how nervous I get has dropped down a lot. At the beginning you’re so concerned that you have a camera up there and you could lose it or drop it. And you’ve very, very concerned about your plane because you’re putting $600 or $800 in the air, and everything that goes up must come down, no matter how. Now I’m more concerned about what picture I want.
To learn more about Veliz’s photography, e-mail him at [email protected] or Aerial View - Home


----------



## derickveliz

The Dude said:


> Great pano shots, love the link to the R/C jet get together also. I will stop taking your thread off topic now.


Thanks,
and don't worry, it's ok, the problem is when I start talking about airplanes and photography I can't stop! LOL

Here is another LINK with more pictures...

Check out this little foam airplane, one of my favorites, its not super fast (Top level speed is *96 mph*) but climb rate is *60 feet per second!* and this one is not for aerial photos, *this one is just for FUN!*











.


----------



## MTopper

so um... whats the cheaper way to get into playing with the planes? i have a couple little helicopters but i'd love to play with the planes


----------



## GlasSman

derickveliz said:


> I'm not going to put my BASS behind me, it has to be in front. S
> 
> 
> 
> .


If your up front midbass are capable, crossed over low enough, getting plenty of power , subs in the trunk are fine.

I need my front floor boards for feet and other stuff......


----------



## bengerman

great stuff!! nice photos too


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

derickveliz said:


> Adam, a DIY_Audio member was so kind to build the rings for my L6's check them out! The L6's will go in kick panels venting the drivers to the sides and down the floor.


What did he charge you to make those rings?


----------



## derickveliz

MTopper said:


> so um... whats the cheaper way to get into playing with the planes? i have a couple little helicopters but i'd love to play with the planes


A "Ready To Fly" would be around $150, but if you really like the hobby and would like to move forward it starts around $350

Check out Hobby Lobby and if you have any questions feel free to email me ([email protected])

.


----------



## derickveliz

GlasSman said:


> If your up front midbass are capable, crossed over low enough, getting plenty of power , subs in the trunk are fine.
> 
> I need my front floor boards for feet and other stuff......


*I agree!*

My set up is not a power monster, and the difference that makes having the sub up front in my car is like day and night, that is why I'm going in this direction. 

.


----------



## derickveliz

Huckleberry Sound said:


> What did he charge you to make those rings?


PM sent.


----------



## GlasSman

Huckleberry Sound said:


> What did he charge you to make those rings?


PM sent.


----------



## GlasSman

derickveliz said:


> *I agree!*
> 
> My set up is not a power monster, and the difference that makes having the sub up front in my car is like day and night, that is why I'm going in this direction.
> 
> .


My thing is the vehicle has to retain it's functionality.

Also, the less thats visible in the cabin, the lower your chances are of getting hit by thieves.....but of course I guess that shipped has sailed with your pods in the A-pillars.


Nice work on the install.....your learning curve for a beginner is impressive.


----------



## brocken

Sorry if this question was asked and I missed it.
How is the sound from the mids with those sphere pods? I really like the look but wondering if it would choke a 3-4" midrange. I'm sure the venting into the a-pillar helps but wondered if it still acts as a small enclosure...


----------



## derickveliz

GlasSman said:


> My thing is the vehicle has to retain it's functionality.
> 
> Also, the less thats visible in the cabin, the lower your chances are of getting hit by thieves.....but of course I guess that shipped has sailed with your pods in the A-pillars.
> 
> 
> Nice work on the install.....your learning curve for a beginner is impressive.


I agree *"to retain vehicle functionality"*, tell that to my wife!

on the other hand, my first plan was going to put my classic three 10" Solo-Barics that I had in my Tacoma, guess what? TOO HEAVY! my poor yaris, already lowered with springs and the extra weight of the deadening material this 3 little guys made the ride a terrible experience...











That's why I went with the IDQ12 after trying a Bachooka, to save on space and weight...












The idea with the I6SW is to have a small enclosure with enough space to accommodated a passenger, and even in the most extremes to be able to unplug it and move it out if need it. But 99.9% of the time it's just me, so even with the IDQ taking all the space it's OK with me.











I know what you mean with "less visible" I've been there, but today I'm blessed to live in a very nice area (in the middle of no where) and my new job it's a very secure place. It's a long commute and that gives me lots of time to enjoy music on the road.

Thanks and I know I've done mistakes and bad choices, I try to document all that so others like me can learn from them. Learning for me it's all about experimenting, playing and experience. And *thanks to websites like DIYMA and people like you! *that makes all this possible!

.


----------



## derickveliz

brocken said:


> Sorry if this question was asked and I missed it.
> How is the sound from the mids with those sphere pods? I really like the look but wondering if it would choke a 3-4" midrange. I'm sure the venting into the a-pillar helps but wondered if it still acts as a small enclosure...


*They Sound GREAT*, but under 200 Hz *no good*, the venting into the a-pillars it's not enough, according to HERTZ the HL-70 is a IB driver, or they told me to provide at least one liter of internal space. I'm sure they choke a little bit. 


.


----------



## derickveliz

*Yesterday I took off the sphere of the MIDS, and started playing with aiming again, now that I know what I'm looking for, and having the right songs (tracks) it's much easier! 

Now I understand why "off-axis" and Time Alignment play a big role together. *

*The HL-70s actually move! and look cool doing it*; like I wrote above, the venting was not enough. So now on to rebuild the MIDs into the A-pillars with an off-axis install and a great imaging, Now I need to learn more about Time Alignment.












The Tweeters on *smaller spheres will stay.* [for now]











.


----------



## HondAudio

derickveliz said:


> *Deadening:*


Hate to butt in and quote the first post, but...

I picked up a yard of "closed cell foam" yesterday. It doesn't quite look like these; it's white and kind of resembles the foam sheeting that's installed underneath engineered wood flooring as insulation and cushioning. Will this work in lieu of what's pictured here, or no? It doesn't seem to be as flexible as I imagine Ensolite is, but with a strong enough adhesive and some muscle, it might conform to my floor pan; if not, would "floating" it between MLF and the CLD work?

thx


----------



## brocken

That's a bummer about not enough venting... I just bought some foam balls last night... haha
I kinda wondered that before I picked them up though.

I don't plan on playing my mids down to 200 but I don't want to choke them off even if I highpass at 500.

Those pods look really awesome though and I thought they'd look cooler than the a-pillar tumors I have now.


----------



## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> Hate to butt in and quote the first post, but...
> 
> I picked up a yard of "closed cell foam" yesterday. It doesn't quite look like these; it's white and kind of resembles the foam sheeting that's installed underneath engineered wood flooring as insulation and cushioning. Will this work in lieu of what's pictured here, or no? It doesn't seem to be as flexible as I imagine Ensolite is, but with a strong enough adhesive and some muscle, it might conform to my floor pan; if not, would "floating" it between MLF and the CLD work?
> 
> thx


Yes it works, On the floor I used 1/4 CCfoam, "floating" is good enough!

Any pictures?

.


----------



## derickveliz

brocken said:


> That's a bummer about not enough venting... I just bought some foam balls last night... haha
> I kinda wondered that before I picked them up though.
> 
> I don't plan on playing my mids down to 200 but I don't want to choke them off even if I highpass at 500.
> 
> Those pods look really awesome though and I thought they'd look cooler than the a-pillar tumors I have now.


Any thing below *200Hz* @ high volume would choke my HL-70s, above *200Hz was OK!*

The idea is to have a *main source of sound,* in this case the MIDS, if you let your mids start at 500Hz, defeats the purpose and your stage would be pull out from the main source, (unless mids are next to mid-bass) in other words *male voices* would come out from the Mid-bass and* female voices* would come out from the MIDs, *in my case* if I start my mids at 500Hz it would pull my stage down on the low notes (since my mid-bass are low at the doors) and up on the higher notes.

*I could have solved the Choking problem* on my MIDs by making the opening into the a-pillars *bigger*, but since I'm going to re-aim the HL-70 for *better imaging*, I decided to redo the MIDs and replace the big sphere.

Having the MIDS the way I show them, the *stage surrounds you*, like if you where on the stage, and sounded great! but *I'm looking for more depth, and image. * 

For example if you play the track with the *7 drums*, instead of having them align in front of you with equal distances between each drum, makes you feel that the drums are in front of you forming a "V" shape. If you would like me to send you a copy of this track email me ([email protected]). So you can try it out.

This image shows what I get with the spheres and aiming at the center of the car, more of an 
on-axis" install... 












This image shows how I get with my MIDs facing each other in a "off-axis" install.














*The whole idea about imaging is to localize each player in a song, the singer, the guitar, drums, bass, etc. 3D-mentionally *




.


----------



## leepersc

Damn brother, your install is coming along nicely. It looks like your knowledge and experience has grown leaps and bounds since your install began. I give you props for your ability to learn and excel within your skill set.

Very nice my man! Now do work!! :whip:

-Scott


----------



## derickveliz

leepersc said:


> Damn brother, your install is coming along nicely. It looks like your knowledge and experience has grown leaps and bounds since your install began. I give you props for your ability to learn and excel within your skill set.
> 
> Very nice my man! Now do work!! :whip:
> 
> -Scott


Thank you,

If a day could have 36+ hours I may have some things take out from the *"To DO"* list LOL

.


----------



## leepersc

derickveliz said:


> Thank you,
> 
> If a day could have 36+ hours I may have some things take out from the *"To DO"* list LOL
> 
> .



To be honest, after viewing your photography skills and your install, I am very impressed with your attention to detail. That alone is inspiring. The 'To do' list is never empty. Looks like you are managing just fine!


----------



## n_olympios

derickveliz said:


> Thank you,
> 
> If a day could have 36+ hours I may have some things take out from the *"To DO"* list LOL
> 
> .


I've wished that too, plenty of times.


----------



## derickveliz

leepersc said:


> To be honest, after viewing your photography skills and your install, I am very impressed with your attention to detail. That alone is inspiring. The 'To do' list is never empty. Looks like you are managing just fine!


*Thank you.*

I'm trying

(o:


----------



## brocken

I think what I need to do is just pre-wire everything and do some listening and positioning. I have a tendency to just GO and do something and later realize I should have done it a different way.

I appreciate your feedback.
I think I'd prefer the second picture where everything is lined across a stage. I like to have instruments/vocals with obvious separation but don't need the 'v' pulled towards me.


----------



## Bongski

OK. my first post. lurking around for quite awhile. we have the same car and I'm just getting into car audio. still bldg from scratch. got my HU in place (CDA117e) and a standing by Morel Tempos. Was aiming for Powerbass also as I've read good reviews on our local car audio board. Is that ASA 600.4? you have an impressive skills right off the bat! You are my hero! With that gear, I may have to re-think to consider ID sub like that


----------



## narvarr

derickveliz said:


> Any thing below *200Hz* @ high volume would choke my HL-70s, above *200Hz was OK!*
> 
> The idea is to have a *main source of sound,* in this case the MIDS, if you let your mids start at 500Hz, defeats the purpose and your stage would be pull out from the main source, (unless mids are next to mid-bass) in other words *male voices* would come out from the Mid-bass and* female voices* would come out from the MIDs, *in my case* if I start my mids at 500Hz it would pull my stage down on the low notes (since my mid-bass are low at the doors) and up on the higher notes.
> 
> *I could have solved the Choking problem* on my MIDs by making the opening into the a-pillars *bigger*, but since I'm going to re-aim the HL-70 for *better imaging*, I decided to redo the MIDs and replace the big sphere.
> 
> Having the MIDS the way I show them, the *stage surrounds you*, like if you where on the stage, and sounded great! but *I'm looking for more depth, and image. *
> 
> For example if you play the track with the *7 drums*, instead of having them align in front of you with equal distances between each drum, makes you feel that the drums are in front of you forming a "V" shape. If you would like me to send you a copy of this track email me ([email protected]). So you can try it out.
> 
> This image shows what I get with the spheres and aiming at the center of the car, more of an
> on-axis" install...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This image shows how I get with my MIDs facing each other in a "off-axis" install.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The whole idea about imaging is to localize each player in a song, the singer, the guitar, drums, bass, etc. 3D-mentionally *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Looks good! One thing to keep in mind when moving your mids...the way they are now may be the most ideal positioning. Having them facing each other will give you more reflection off the windsheild and may make it harder to get a good solid image. Try using an RTA to help get your peaks tamed with the setup you have now and see how it sounds.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


----------



## HondAudio

derickveliz said:


> Yes it works, On the floor I used 1/4 CCfoam, "floating" is good enough!
> 
> Any pictures?
> 
> .


This was the best I could do with my phone's camera. It's like the padding for engineered-wood flooring, as far as I can tell:





And... a little peek and how my subwoofer-and-amp-rack "thing" is shaping up. I'm almost done:



The "well" in the upper-right corner of the picture attaches to the bottom-right side of the structure pictured. The blue stuff is a foil-faced carpet padding I've been using, and the wood scraps are jigs


----------



## derickveliz

brocken said:


> I think what I need to do is just pre-wire everything and do some listening and positioning. I have a tendency to just GO and do something and later realize I should have done it a different way.
> 
> I appreciate your feedback.
> I think I'd prefer the second picture where everything is lined across a stage. I like to have instruments/vocals with obvious separation but don't need the 'v' pulled towards me.


*Yes!* play with it and pay attention on subtle changes with T/A and aiming It's a good idea to mute all other drivers so you only hear your mids, I put mine from 200 Hz to 20kHz (tweeter less)

*Yes!* that's what I'm looking for a flat front stage, and honestly after experimenting at least in my car the best has been Mids facing each other aiming about 6 inches behind the rear view mirror, just above the speedometer cluster (thanks to Toyota for that symmetrical dashboard).

.


----------



## derickveliz

Bongski said:


> OK. my first post. lurking around for quite awhile. we have the same car and I'm just getting into car audio. still bldg from scratch. got my HU in place (CDA117e) and a standing by Morel Tempos. Was aiming for Powerbass also as I've read good reviews on our local car audio board. Is that ASA 600.4? you have an impressive skills right off the bat! You are my hero! With that gear, I may have to re-think to consider ID sub like that


*Congratulations on your first post! and same car!*
I have a *PowerBass ASA 1100.5x*, but I have a noise issue, It may go back with warranty.
Can't go wrong with ID, if my new I6SW project works I may be selling my IDQ12 soon.

.


----------



## derickveliz

narvarr said:


> Looks good! One thing to keep in mind when moving your mids...the way they are now may be the most ideal positioning. Having them facing each other will give you more reflection off the windsheild and may make it harder to get a good solid image. Try using an RTA to help get your peaks tamed with the setup you have now and see how it sounds.


So far I've been getting a much better image, and yes I'm aware of the windshield reflections, and would love to learn more about RTA! where can I find out more about it? is it some thing like program you download to your laptop and use a microphone? I'm sorry but I'm learning all this stuff.

I'm changing the aiming on my mids because I couldn't tolerate the center image right in my left side of my face and when playing these tracks...

-Seven Drum Beats 
-Front_End_Alignment 
-Left, Center, Right Narratives

The "V" shape image was driving me nuts.

But yes *please tell me more about RAT*?

thanks

.


----------



## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> This was the best I could do with my phone's camera. It's like the padding for engineered-wood flooring, as far as I can tell:
> 
> And... a little peek and how my subwoofer-and-amp-rack "thing" is shaping up. I'm almost done:
> 
> The "well" in the upper-right corner of the picture attaches to the bottom-right side of the structure pictured. The blue stuff is a foil-faced carpet padding I've been using, and the wood scraps are jigs


NICE!
What sub is going to live there?

.


----------



## HondAudio

derickveliz said:


> NICE!
> What sub is going to live there?
> 
> .


JL 12w4. It requires 1.25 cubic feet. I went for 1.5. I'll make the final volume measurement soon, but a pinch of polyfill should make up the difference if I'm at 1.47 or something. Any ideas on deadening or whatnot for the interior?

edit: The baffle for the sub will be removable, in case the sub needs replacement and I need to cut a new one. It will be screwed in, and I'm using ~1/16" CCF as a gasketing material.


----------



## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> JL 12w4. It requires 1.25 cubic feet. I went for 1.5. I'll make the final volume measurement soon, but a pinch of polyfill should make up the difference if I'm at 1.47 or something. Any ideas on deadening or whatnot for the interior?


Wait! you add poly-fill when your enclosure is smaller than what the driver requires!

Chase the road noise, rattles and kill them.

what car do you have? a Honda?

.


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## HondAudio

derickveliz said:


> Wait! you add poly-fill when your enclosure is smaller than what the driver requires!
> 
> Chase the road noise, rattles and kill them.
> 
> what car do you have? a Honda?
> 
> .


I want the enclosure as big as possible. You know, extended low-end and all that. I drive a 2006 Scion xB, actually. Any ideas on how I can secure the unit down in the back? I need to secure it down for safety, but be able to lift it up to access the spare.


----------



## narvarr

derickveliz said:


> So far I've been getting a much better image, and yes I'm aware of the windshield reflections, and would love to learn more about RTA! where can I find out more about it? is it some thing like program you download to your laptop and use a microphone? I'm sorry but I'm learning all this stuff.
> 
> I'm changing the aiming on my mids because I couldn't tolerate the center image right in my left side of my face and when playing these tracks...
> 
> -Seven Drum Beats
> -Front_End_Alignment
> -Left, Center, Right Narratives
> 
> The "V" shape image was driving me nuts.
> 
> But yes *please tell me more about RAT*?
> 
> thanks
> 
> .


There is a thread on here somewhere call "Build your own RTA for $100" or something like that. In uses a computer program and a mic to measure your frequency responce. If you have an Iphone or Android phone, you can download a free app of one. Doiter uses the Studio Six app on his Iphone and reports that its pretty accurate.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


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## derickveliz

Here is where I'm right now, and I really like the way it sounds...


----------



## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> I want the enclosure as big as possible. You know, extended low-end and all that. I drive a 2006 Scion xB, actually. Any ideas on how I can secure the unit down in the back? I need to secure it down for safety, but be able to lift it up to access the spare.


Ok, I got it. Boom Boom!

Scions are very similar to Toyota...

I would use bolts to secure it down, but access, I can't figure out without actually seen it.


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## derickveliz

narvarr said:


> There is a thread on here somewhere call "Build your own RTA for $100" or something like that. In uses a computer program and a mic to measure your frequency responce. If you have an Iphone or Android phone, you can download a free app of one. Doiter uses the Studio Six app on his Iphone and reports that its pretty accurate.


Thanks I'll look into that.

.


----------



## narvarr

derickveliz said:


> Here is where I'm right now, and I really like the way it sounds...


Wish my dash was that symmetrical. I have a giant hump on the drivers side where the guage cluster is.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


----------



## HondAudio

derickveliz said:


> Ok, I got it. Boom Boom!
> 
> Scions are very similar to Toyota...
> 
> I would use bolts to secure it down, but access, I can't figure out without actually seen it.


It sits on top of the OEM trunk floor on the left side [underneath of which is the spare] and the right side is supported by a foam "cubbyhole" piece that's under the [removed] OEM cover. The covers are held down by knobs that you turn 1/4" to unlock; I may be able to utilize the mounting points to hold down the unit, but I'm not sure if they're adequate.


----------



## HondAudio

bump


----------



## derickveliz

I'm still driving with my MIDs with no enclosure trying to get the best aiming possible. Some what pointing at each other above the cluster. A little bit up and into the cabin about 2 or 3 degrees is best.

*Talking about "Aiming" *I've been going nuts with my MIDs, but when that happens I turn "OFF" *Time Alingment* and that reminds me why struggle so much with this,there are a couple of sweet spots but in general they sound so good (off-axis).


----------



## teenkertoy

derickveliz said:


> I'm still driving with my MIDs with no enclosure trying to get the best aiming possible. Some what pointing at each other above the cluster. A little bit up and into the cabin about 2 or 3 degrees is best.
> 
> *Talking about "Aiming" *I've been going nuts with my MIDs, but when that happens I turn "OFF" *Time Alingment* and that reminds me why struggle so much with this,there are a couple of sweet spots but in general they sound so good (off-axis).


If your mids are not in enclosures, and they will sound very different after installation with enclosures, how do you expect to aim them by ear?

Also, keep relying on your ears and don't fall into the (very easy) trap of believing everything an RTA says is accurate. Though it's a really fun tool and can really solidify your knowledge by connecting what you hear to a visual representation : )

-J


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## smathews




----------



## derickveliz

teenkertoy said:


> If your mids are not in enclosures, and they will sound very different after installation with enclosures, how do you expect to aim them by ear?
> 
> -J


I'm using old socks with rice, to wrap the back of the drivers and *kill the back wave *(also to hold the speakers in place when driving around), The lower tones around 160Hz to 600Hz (approx.) are the ones most affected by running without an enclosure, My mids start at 160Hz all the way to 10kHz, some times I just let them play all the way up (tweeter less) and works great too! 

What I'm hearing it's *the position of the singer*, drum, guitar, bass, etc (not how harmonically sounds)* in a specific place on my stage*, instead of hearing the voice/instrument coming from the speakers I hear like if the person is singing right in the center of my dashboard and I can locate everybody playing in a song, Aiming and playing with TA it's very interesting, and intensive trail and error, My best guide has been playing technical tracks like: 

*- Seven Drum Beats

- Front_End_Alignment

- Left, Center, Right Narratives

- LeftRight Phase Verification*

The Image is there, and I can feel how it moves, *left-right, up-down, further-closer* it has been a great experience for me to experiment and understand how it works.


It's just a mater of changing the angle of the MIDS little by little, adjusting TA and, for example... paying attention to the spacing between Drums, having them spaced apart equally, or just by having my cousin to listen to one of these tracks or a good quality song and showing how it works and how magical it feels. (He just couldn't believe it) it's like a 3Dimentional stage of Music.

I'm not and expert, I'm learning a step at a time and enjoying every second I can spend some time behind the steering wheel and even more when I get a chance to work and move forward with my install. (over a year now) 

.


----------



## teenkertoy

derickveliz said:


> I'm using old socks with rice, to wrap the back of the drivers and *kill the back wave *(also to hold the speakers in place when driving around), The lower tones around 160Hz to 600Hz (approx.) are the ones most affected by running without an enclosure, My mids start at 160Hz all the way to 10kHz, some times I just let them play all the way up (tweeter less) and works great too!


It's difficult for me to realize your setup without being in the car, but this is what I understand. Your photo posted here shows the rear wave of the mids on the dash are completely exposed. Your midrange woofers are about 4 inches in diameter, so I would expect cancellations starting around 3khz. What do you mean by _the lower tones of 160-600hz being most affected by running without an enclosure_? 

I certainly appreciate the technical part of what you're doing. Time alignment and aiming can be an immense headache or a great project. When you get it all figured out, let us know what you learned : )

The tracks you refer to, where are they from?

-J


----------



## derickveliz

teenkertoy said:


> It's difficult for me to realize your setup without being in the car, but this is what I understand. Your photo posted here shows the rear wave of the mids on the dash are completely exposed. Your midrange woofers are about 4 inches in diameter, so I would expect cancellations starting around 3khz. What do you mean by _the lower tones of 160-600hz being most affected by running without an enclosure_?
> 
> I certainly appreciate the technical part of what you're doing. Time alignment and aiming can be an immense headache or a great project. When you get it all figured out, let us know what you learned : )
> 
> The tracks you refer to, where are they from?
> 
> -J


You are correct, at the beginning I didn't wrap the drivers, and it was terrible, until a friend of mine (sqcomp) suggested me to do so. (see photos below)

My cross overs for my Mids start at 160Hz all the way up to 10kHz 
Tweeters pick up from 10kHz and up just to fill the air and wide the stage
the Midbass drivers start at 50Hz up to 160Hz 
and off course the subwoofer is 20Hz-50Hz

That's the beauty about running a 3 way active system, you have control of just about anything and the HU Pioneer P-99 works for me. So far my learning experience is that where ever I aim my (mids) drivers and intercept with each other that is where I get the effect of a center channel (after Time Alignment), if aimed in a "V" shape like I had before aiming at about 45 degrees, sounds like I had a center channel between front seats, next to my right ear, when I aim them towards above the instrument panel... that is where I get the effect of a center channel above the dashboard without a center channel.

I hope you get what I mean, and here are the pictures with the drivers been covered in the back to kill the back wave... 





























.


----------



## teenkertoy

derickveliz said:


> My cross overs for my Mids start at 160Hz all the way up to 10kHz
> Tweeters pick up from 10kHz and up just to fill the air and wide the stage
> the Midbass drivers start at 50Hz up to 160Hz
> and off course the subwoofer is 20Hz-50Hz
> 
> That's the beauty about running a 3 way active system, you have control of just about anything and the HU Pioneer P-99 works for me. So far my learning experience is that where ever I aim my (mids) drivers and intercept with each other that is where I get the effect of a center channel (after Time Alignment), if aimed in a "V" shape like I had before aiming at about 45 degrees, sounds like I had a center channel between front seats, next to my right ear, when I aim them towards above the instrument panel... that is where I get the effect of a center channel above the dashboard without a center channel.


I missed the model of your head unit on that first page, that P-99 is pretty high on my wishlist though my Eclipse is doing the job pretty well right now.

And yeah I do understand what you mean about the center of the stage being near the point where the two midrange axis' cross. Considering the airbags in my a-pillar, and the factory tweeters in the frontmost high corner of my door, I'll be aiming my tweeters crosswise as well (a first for me, should be interesting).

I'm wondering how you decided to cross the mid/tw at 10khz? The midrange being about 4" in diameter should start beaming near 3khz, and this is easily seen on the plot from Hertz. Your Legatia can play down to 3k-4khz, so the transition seems pretty straight-forward on paper. Do you get a better stage with a higher crossover frequency?

-J


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## Huckleberry Sound

derickveliz said:


> Here is where I'm right now, and I really like the way it sounds...



Question. Are you getting a false result since the rear of the diver is expose as well as the front. Like are you hearing both sides of the driver?


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## teenkertoy

Huckleberry Sound said:


> Question. Are you getting a false result since the rear of the diver is expose as well as the front. Like are you hearing both sides of the driver?


Try reading my question (the same as yours) and his response (two posts above yours).

-J


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## derickveliz

teenkertoy said:


> I'm wondering how you decided to cross the mid/tw at 10khz? The midrange being about 4" in diameter should start beaming near 3khz, and this is easily seen on the plot from Hertz. Your Legatia can play down to 3k-4khz, so the transition seems pretty straight-forward on paper. Do you get a better stage with a higher crossover frequency?
> 
> -J


*"The spoken word (human voice) comprises a fundamental 
frequency range of approximately 150 Hz to 6,000 Hz.

Play as much of the audible spectrum of the spoken voice to ensure 
point-source delivery of the tones and pinpoint image definition. In many cases, this would be
around 200-250 Hz for high pass, and around 6,000 Hz, or higher, for low pass."*

Source... hybrid-audio.com


----------



## subwoofery

teenkertoy said:


> I missed the model of your head unit on that first page, that P-99 is pretty high on my wishlist though my Eclipse is doing the job pretty well right now.
> 
> And yeah I do understand what you mean about the center of the stage being near the point where the two midrange axis' cross. Considering the airbags in my a-pillar, and the factory tweeters in the frontmost high corner of my door, I'll be aiming my tweeters crosswise as well (a first for me, should be interesting).
> 
> I'm wondering how you decided to cross the mid/tw at 10khz? The midrange being about 4" in diameter should start beaming near 3khz, and this is easily seen on the plot from Hertz. Your Legatia can play down to 3k-4khz, so the transition seems pretty straight-forward on paper. Do you get a better stage with a higher crossover frequency?
> 
> -J


Here's a quote from Scott Buwalda: 


Scott Buwalda said:


> Sure. The reality is that yes, speaker directivity begins to narrow at the wavelength that equals the diameter of the radiating surface of the driver. For a 7.1-inch midrange, the radiating surface is about 4.625 inches (this is the part of the speaker that makes the tone, and does not include the surround nor the frame of the speaker). The wavelength of 4.625 inches is 2,900 Hz. That means the 7.1” midbass does not begin to “beam” until about 2,900 Hz. Even at 4,000 Hz, the speaker’s beaming/directivity is relatively minor.
> 
> One important thing to note, in car audio, we actually like a certain degree of beaming, because with beaming occurs an attenuation of upper frequency information the more off-axis you go. So if you are 60 degrees off axis on the left side of the car, to the left speaker, the right seated passenger is likely only 30 degrees off axis. That means a defined improvement in bandwidth and amplitude for the opposite-seated passenger. This is a good thing if done correctly. I like to call it "poor man's intensity alignment."
> 
> As for the discussion about tweeters and crossovers, that's a whole 'nother story. I propose going as high with the tweeter crossover as possible, while still maintaining the desired frequency response, spectral balance, and sound linearity at the listener.


You obviously know what beaming is so no need to go over that  
But as you can see a 7" speaker only has around 4.5" of radiating surface. 
The HL70 has a radiating surface of around 2.3", meaning it's gonna start beaming around 6.5kHz. 
10kHz might work for him in his car. But remember that his mids were aimed towards the listeners - having the mids firing at each other might require him to change his Xover point lower 

Kelvin


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## HondAudio

Bump for a clean install and the scientific method


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## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> Bump for a clean install and the scientific method


Thanks, I'm working on it.


And Yes to subwoofery, I did lower the x-over point a little bit in the last couple of days.

The Image is there, it's so nice to turn on/off Time Alignment and feel the difference.

I asked my 4 year old son to sit on the Pilot's seat and playing the Track of the 7 Drums I asked him to point at each of the drums as they played, it was like magic for him, very funny experience. And gives me piece of mind that I'm not going crazy.

D.


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## narvarr

Any updates? I'm about to start building my pods and your thread has been very helpful.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


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## derickveliz

narvarr said:


> Any updates? I'm about to start building my pods and your thread has been very helpful.
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


More than an update... 

Working on some new rings for my Mids, and trying to fit the grill that comes with the HL-70 for a different look... 













































































*A little bit of progress... *It's ready to cover, also I did aim the tweeter in the same angle as the Mids... so far sounds pretty good.





















This is what I've been waiting for... This is the woofer I'm going to use up front:

LINK to Video I6SW!



Also got an RTA apps on my phone, so I'm waiting for the moment to play that PINK noise!

Does any body has an RTA for Dummies?
I found this LINK

Please any advice is more than welcome!


D.


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## teenkertoy

You will get as many tips for using an RTA as there are people to post them I'm afraid. Here are some of the resources I found useful, and how I make my measurements.

For a great example of how to best use one, and ideas behind it, read How to Build an Audiophile Car Stereo (at least parts 1 and 2) chronicling John Whitledge's (now famous) Magic Bus build. The key thing here is that an unweighted ruler-flat frequency response sounds terrible, and you should look at B-weight and Phon curves to model from. There are seven parts if you want to read them all.
How to Build an Audiophile Car Stereo System, Part 1 - Daily Drivers - Car Audio and Electronics
How to Build an Audiophile Car Stereo System, Part 2 - Daily Drivers - Car Audio and Electronics

TrueRTA has a good primer on using their software and how to connect the equipment.

I make my measurements something like this:

1. Loop the output of your source into the input of your RTA (as close to where you plug in the microphone itself). This is most often the output port of a soundcard to a microphone preamplifier when using RTA on a computer. Adjust gains to a level you will be testing with, and "calibrate" your test system (a function of the RTA software). On an iPhone, I'm not sure if you can do this step or not. The goal is to eliminate the source and your microphone preamplifier and any other gear in the chain as an influence on the result.

2. Load a microphone calibration curve if you have one that is specific for your exact mic, not a generic profile for the model in general. This is uncommonly shipped with the microphone itself, and must either be purchased from someone to measures their mics before shipping them, or can be measured after the fact.

3. To measure the frequency response of a system (system meaning speakers installed IN the door, you sitting IN the driver's seat, complete with resonances and reflections) play it as you would when listening (windows up, engine off, moderate volume, etc). OR to measure a single speaker inside the car you can use "near-field" technique of placing the microphone on-axis and as close to the speaker as possible without touching (to hopefully reduce the influence of reflections and materials resonating, though it will still be affected by the environment such as cabin gain). 
_Personal tweak:_ many recommend leaving the car and standing outside when measuring because our body has enough acoustic signature to affect the results. Well that's great, but I want to measure what it sounds like _when I'm inside the car listening_, so I stay inside.

4. In general, try to use spatial averaging instead of measuring a specific point from a microphone stand (this is less important for bass, as the wavelengths are so long a small movement of the microphone will not sound or measure much different, whereas with high frequencies this is the opposite). Play a noise or tone continuously for this measurement, and setup the RTA to record and average samples for awhile, often 10 seconds or more. Hover the microphone by hand in and around the area you want to measure, be sure to have constant movement. Imagine a sphere that occupies the space of your head, maybe a little oblong like a blimp, essentially the area your ears will be within some reasonable amount of moving your head. The goal is to "sample" as many points as possible within this space and average the data together so that no single characteristic of the environment will dominate your plot (nodes, anti-nodes, particular reflections, etc).

5. Repeat many, many times, or at least until you get repeatable results. It was astounding to me how much a measurement will vary from another, from a third, and from a fourth, they all can look like different speakers or cars even though it was all taken from the same place.

6. Don't fall into the trap of thinking this is a better tool than your ears, as people sometimes do (I know I did at first!). I doubt you'll have this problem though. Also remember this is not an accurate tool for_ absolute measurements_, meaning something that measures as 70dB never is, and the entire response graph may be close to the truth, but may also be influenced by any number of things. However, this system is a great _relative measurement_ tool, which is how Whitledge uses it first for finding cabin gain in his project.

Hope that helps, and wasn't too elementary, I have a feeling you'll pick this up quickly.

-J


----------



## derickveliz

teenkertoy said:


> You will get as many tips for using an RTA as there are people to post them I'm afraid. Here are some of the resources I found useful, and how I make my measurements.
> TrueRTA has a good primer on using their software and how to connect the equipment.
> Hope that helps, and wasn't too elementary, I have a feeling you'll pick this up quickly.
> 
> -J


Thanks J,

(o:


.


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## Vancomycin

Tremendous stuff!
Well done.
I like OPs systematic approach...and what I perceive as a gentle personality from his numerous posts...all very commendable.


----------



## Hispls

Wow. You put a ton of effort into those pods! Cool to meet you.

OP has a very nice camera...helps going through build log.


----------



## eXcelon969

HondAudio said:


> ReticulatingPigeonElf said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sound Deadening Materials for Noise Reduction from Second Skin
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I just remembered that Second Skin is in AZ. I could potentially pick things up, instead of having them shipped. Do they allow that?
> 
> *edit* Whoops... I just noticed that there's a ton of dealers that I can go to, as well
> 
> 
> 
> yes they do, i've done it
Click to expand...


----------



## HondAudio

eXcelon969 said:


> HondAudio said:
> 
> 
> 
> yes they do, i've done it
> 
> 
> 
> Except for the fact that they're in Tucson now...
Click to expand...


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## narvarr

Any new progress?

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


----------



## derickveliz

narvarr said:


> Any new progress?
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


Slowly but Yes...

Learning how to use RTA

MidBass got a new amp from 100 watts to 150 watts, made a big difference!

Understanding TA and how it works, will never look back!

I had an electrical noise, did about everything in the book and nothing, found out that moving RCA cables from HU to amps on the right side instead of the left side solved the problem.

It's a learning process, slowly but worth a million.

hooo I almost forgot we had a Massachusetts meet, and it was great! 

. (o:


----------



## derickveliz

I was just playing with glass on the Pilots a-pillar and new Mids baffle, this is my first a-pillar build so lets see how it goes! Oops no pictures I don't have my camera with me... I'll take some tomorrow.

.


----------



## derickveliz

derickveliz said:


> I was just playing with glass on the Pilots a-pillar and new Mids baffle, this is my first a-pillar build so lets see how it goes! Oops no pictures I don't have my camera with me... I'll take some tomorrow.
> 
> .









































.


----------



## 3cyltrbo

with the 3.5's mounted that low in the A-pillar, is the pillar going to clear the dash?

I know on my Yaris (a Hatchback) I had to mount my stuff higher up the A-Pillar because it was going to be too close to where the A-pillar and dash overlap each other

W


----------



## derickveliz

3cyltrbo said:


> with the 3.5's mounted that low in the A-pillar, is the pillar going to clear the dash?
> 
> I know on my Yaris (a Hatchback) I had to mount my stuff higher up the A-Pillar because it was going to be too close to where the A-pillar and dash overlap each other
> 
> W


*I tested many times* before glassing, the aiming target *above and in front the instrument panel is about 1.5 inches*. (see images below, even it doesn't shows final aiming it's pretty close) 

I spend many hours changing the position and aiming for the Mids to proper create a *better front stage.*

*I couldn't push the speakers further into the a-pillars *(trying to get them as far apart of each other), so I relay on the tweeters for a wider Image, been in front of the sail panels open the stage really nice.




















(o:


----------



## subwoofery

Good to hear that you managed to find the sweet spot - and good job on finding the will to redo your pillars. 

Just wanted to say that your midbasses and mids will give you a sense of depth and width - not the tweeters. 
That's why you see some crazy guyz that cuts the firewall/floor to furthur push their drivers into their kick panels. 
However, tweeters can make your stage shallower if not installed/tuned properly... 

Keep up the good work, 
Kelvin


----------



## derickveliz

subwoofery said:


> Good to hear that you managed to find the sweet spot - and good job on finding the will to redo your pillars.
> 
> Just wanted to say that your midbasses and mids will give you a sense of depth and width - not the tweeters.
> That's why you see some crazy guyz that cuts the firewall/floor to furthur push their drivers into their kick panels.
> However, tweeters can make your stage shallower if not installed/tuned properly...
> 
> Keep up the good work,
> Kelvin


Agree!

What I'm trying to accomplish is to have Mids as far of each other (left and right) at the same time have them as far forward possible, but I fall into some physical limitations, my car is very narrow, there is not a lot of elbow space like in bigger cars, I wanted to have Mids where the sail panel are, but drop that idea because building an enclosure there was going to be to much for me, and since HL-70 are IB a small box wouldn't work any way.

So far I liked the way I'm installing them, I can't ask for more, even with out a baffle and properly installed the Mids sound really good (to me) I tried every single position and angle. 

It's interesting how a tweeter makes the stage shallower like you mention before, once I had the tweeter above the Mids on the a-pillars off axis and it was awful. Some other places and aiming where better than others, but to me when the tweeters are on the sail panels off axis, the stage was very nice.

I really recommend spending lots of time testing the location and aiming of your equipment, I spend over 2 month moving things around, learning and narrowing down best place and angle. Just see the first install I did using spheres, it was OK... nice looking, sounded great, but staging was not good; that is why I'm redoing my front stage, because I'm learning how every thing works and what sound best for my taste.

(o:


----------



## derickveliz

*A-pillar update!*

























































































D.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

dang^ vedy nice... 

i'd like to learn how to do a real low key/stealth a-pillar mod for my car sometime. hopefully i can find some good pointers/tutorials in a thread somewhere.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

How are the Powerbass amps working out for you. I am going to get two of the 11005.x...


----------



## derickveliz

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> dang^ vedy nice...
> 
> i'd like to learn how to do a real low key/stealth a-pillar mod for my car sometime. hopefully i can find some good pointers/tutorials in a thread somewhere.


I'm going to "Flock" the a-pillars in black, and I'm feeling that with the black grill on, it would be close to stealth from the outside.

What pointers/tutorials are you looking for, this is my first install and searching here it's all what I used to get my hands dirty. So far it's pretty easy, if you have some time to do it.

.


----------



## derickveliz

Huckleberry Sound said:


> How are the Powerbass amps working out for you. I am going to get two of the 11005.x...


I'm using an *ASA 1100.5x 5 ch* that is:

*75watts* for Mids and Tweets
*250-500watts* for the sub (depending on woofer)

For the Lows I've been using an old Pioneer amp *100watts* but I just got a new Image Dynamics 700.2 for the Lows rated *175watts*


*To answer your question... YES! it's working out! 100% satisfied!!!*


.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

derickveliz said:


> I'm going to "Flock" the a-pillars in black, and I'm feeling that with the black grill on, it would be close to stealth from the outside.


Yeah, that's what i'd aim for. awesome job.



derickveliz said:


> What pointers/tutorials are you looking for, this is my first install and searching here it's all what I used to get my hands dirty. So far it's pretty easy, if you have some time to do it.
> .


Aside from setting the proper driver aim and how to best route the speaker wire, the question i'd have is how to _tightly _secure the modded a-pillar to the vehicle - what with the added driver weight, i'd worry it would fall off going over a speed bump, or into my face in the event of an accident. i'm not sure the regular plastic clips would be so reliable.

i'm going to look into this more seriously. maybe i _am _qualified to do this after all - i mean considering what i've already accomplished, im sure this couldnt be much harder.


----------



## derickveliz

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> Aside from setting the proper driver aim and how to best route the speaker wire, the question i'd have is how to _tightly _secure the modded a-pillar to the vehicle - what with the added driver weight, i'd worry it would fall off going over a speed bump, or into my face in the event of an accident. i'm not sure the regular plastic clips would be so reliable.


I tested fit the a-pillars today and *they are rock solid,* bumps will not be a problem at all, *an accident... mmm that's another story,* just don't plan on testing to find out. I'll be more concern about a subwoofer box! but that's another story.

Go ahead and do it! if I can do it, every body can do it

.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

derickveliz said:


> I'll be more concern about a subwoofer box! but that's another story.
> .


ooo, yeah :worried: - that's why i seat belted my box into the back seat for now, until i find a really solid place to put it - or just glass a box next to the spare and bolt it into the metal.


----------



## trojan fan

subwoofery said:


> Good to hear that you managed to find the sweet spot - and good job on finding the will to redo your pillars.
> 
> Just wanted to say that your midbasses and mids will give you a sense of depth and width - not the tweeters.
> That's why you see some crazy guyz that cuts the firewall/floor to furthur push their drivers into their kick panels.
> However, tweeters can make your stage shallower if not installed/tuned properly...
> 
> Keep up the good work,
> Kelvin



x2...exactly....very good info.


----------



## derickveliz

trojan fan said:


> _"Just wanted to say that your midbasses and mids will give you a sense of depth and width - not the tweeters.
> That's why you see some crazy guyz that cuts the firewall/floor to furthur push their drivers into their kick panels.
> However, tweeters can make your stage shallower if not installed/tuned properly...
> 
> Keep up the good work,
> Kelvin"_
> x2...exactly....very good info.


What if you x-over your tweeters *very low?* run off-axis and place apart as far as possible?

I understand that *it's better to have a main source of sound,* in my case.. MIDS, and that they should be placed *as forward as possible and as far apart from each other* to accomplish a *good stage*, and a better sense of *depth and width*...

Thoughts?

.


----------



## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


> What if you x-over your tweeters *very low?* run off-axis and place apart as far as possible?
> 
> I understand that *it's better to have a main source of sound,* in my case.. MIDS, and that they should be placed *as forward as possible and as far apart from each other* to accomplish a *good stage*, and a better sense of *depth and width*...
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> .


What do you call "really low"? 2.5kHz? 4kHz? 

You're using a 3 way front stage, why do you need to X your tweets very low? Going lower than 4kHz doesn't make much sense. 

Kelvin


----------



## derickveliz

subwoofery said:


> What do you call "really low"? 2.5kHz? 4kHz?
> 
> You're using a 3 way front stage, why do you need to X your tweets very low? Going lower than 4kHz doesn't make much sense.
> 
> Kelvin


Yes that low... 

One... I'm learning and appreciate any information, I don't need to run the tweets that low, but I like to understand why and how every thing works.

Two... That's the point in a 3 way, not everybody runs a 3 way. 

As of today I've been running a 2 way (I'm building a-pillars for the Mids) so Mids are mute for now and I bump up the midbass and making the tweets play low. Sounds a little nostalgic but it's pretty good for a 2 way. I can't wait to finish and put the Mids back in action.

Thank you,

.


----------



## derickveliz

My brother came to visit us, I took him for a *ride on my Yaris,* well I gave him the keys for the ride of his life! and this is what happen later: 

We start pulling out the drive way and a couple of blocks away *he tells me "This is a very quiet car, feels very solid and I can barely hear or feel the engine" He has a 2008 Subaru Legacy.*

Then I *turn on the P-99 *(*no a-pillars, no Mids, tweeters on cup-holders) and he was speech less... *then I explained to him about *Time Alignment, front stage*... and *he was thrilled! *I told him how much better the sound is when the Mids are in action. *He just couldn't believe it.*

Another point for the Yaris and one more day of making me feel good about it... *all this work and time on my car.* Makes me feel proud of my self. (o:


----------



## narvarr

derickveliz said:


> My brother came to visit us, I took him for a *ride on my Yaris,* well I gave him the keys for the ride of his life! and this is what happen later:
> 
> We start pulling out the drive way and a couple of blocks away *he tells me "This is a very quiet car, feels very solid and I can barely hear or feel the engine" He has a 2008 Subaru Legacy.*
> 
> Then I *turn on the P-99 *(*no a-pillars, no Mids, tweeters on cup-holders) and he was speech less... *then I explained to him about *Time Alignment, front stage*... and *he was thrilled! *I told him how much better the sound is when the Mids are in action. *He just couldn't believe it.*
> 
> Another point for the Yaris and one more day of making me feel good about it... *all this work and time on my car.* Makes me feel proud of my self. (o:


I know what you mean. I let a co-worker listen to mine after finally setting up my T/A. I knew I had him when we started looking on top of the dash over the radio for speakers. Great job on the build by the way.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


----------



## derickveliz

narvarr said:


> I know what you mean. I let a co-worker listen to mine after finally setting up my T/A. I knew I had him when we started looking on top of the dash over the radio for speakers. Great job on the build by the way.


Yeah, my brother lift up the "Dash-Matt" looking for a speaker, jeje, (0:

This hobby is GREAT!

Thank you.

D.


----------



## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


> Yes that low...
> 
> One... I'm learning and appreciate any information, I don't need to run the tweets that low, but I like to understand why and how every thing works.
> 
> Two... That's the point in a 3 way, not everybody runs a 3 way.
> 
> As of today I've been running a 2 way (*I'm building a-pillars* for the Mids) so Mids are mute for now and I bump up the midbass and making the tweets play low. Sounds a little nostalgic but it's pretty good for a 2 way. I can't wait to finish and put the Mids back in action.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> .


I assume you have your tweets up there too so I recommend you read this: 
Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • View topic - My views on tweeters and crossovers 
I have tried many configurations and always come back to a high Xover point for my tweeters (even with T/A set "perfectly") - even for a 2 way. <-- my experience only here. 

Unless you have your tweets down and next to your midrange, I wouldn't cross my tweets this low. 


Now regarding your question about stage depth, mostly related to informations coming from midbass through midrange. That's why most people try to use kick panels when possible <-- easiest way to increase stage depth and minimize PLD. 
In my understanding the tweeters usually dictate where your soundstage starts. Just an example here guyz : 
- Install in the sails and your soundstage will start above the dashboard. 
- Install at the base of the a-pillar and your soundstage will start at the windshield. 
^ those are just the basics. You can mimic and increase your depth perception with aiming and reflexions (when installing tweets on the dash and seeing its reflection directed at you on the windshield). 

One more thing I've noticed when tuning is that you can get less width with tweeters too loud and when your transition from upper midrange to treble isn't smooth enough. You can add some boost to 12kHz-16kHz to add some "zing" but do it wisely  

IMO, aiming is king when talking about tweets... 
Kelvin


----------



## derickveliz

subwoofery said:


> I assume you have your tweets up there too so I recommend you read this:
> Buwalda Hybrids International Bulletin Board • View topic - My views on tweeters and crossovers
> I have tried many configurations and always come back to a high Xover point for my tweeters (even with T/A set "perfectly") - even for a 2 way. <-- my experience only here.
> 
> Unless you have your tweets down and next to your midrange, I wouldn't cross my tweets this low.
> 
> 
> Now regarding your question about stage depth, mostly related to informations coming from midbass through midrange. That's why most people try to use kick panels when possible <-- easiest way to increase stage depth and minimize PLD.
> In my understanding the tweeters usually dictate where your soundstage starts. Just an example here guyz :
> - Install in the sails and your soundstage will start above the dashboard.
> - Install at the base of the a-pillar and your soundstage will start at the windshield.
> ^ those are just the basics. You can mimic and increase your depth perception with aiming and reflexions (when installing tweets on the dash and seeing its reflection directed at you on the windshield).
> 
> One more thing I've noticed when tuning is that you can get less width with tweeters too loud and when your transition from upper midrange to treble isn't smooth enough. You can add some boost to 12kHz-16kHz to add some "zing" but do it wisely
> 
> IMO, aiming is king when talking about tweets...
> Kelvin


*Kelvin, you are right!*
Lots of reading make a difference on how you think! this is the 3rd time I do it and every time understand a little bit more.

Yes I adjusted the tweeters HPF to 8K and bump up Mid/bass LPF to 6.3 and there is a *big difference!*

*Some times makes me think about moving the Mids to kick panels, a good 4-5 inches more in favor of PLDs * but I still have the idea of the front woofer so that I think it won't fly.

I guess I'll just keep working on my *a-pillars Mids+tweeters, yes tweeters are not going on the sail panels any more.* I learn and found out that if I put the tweeters on the sail panels because _"the *huge PLD discrepancies* that come in play, Further out and up is better"_. quote from Sqcomp (another Yaris owner, with a Superb SQ system)

Thanks again, and* keep me learning ... "PLEASE"*


.


----------



## narvarr

Not trying to thead jack, but I have a question for both Derick and Kelvin. My A pillars don't extend out very far, or have much of an angle I should say. In this picture, where would you suggest would be a good place for the tweeters to optimal stage relative to listening position?








The factory sail pod currently houses a Peerless 830985 2.5" mid 
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=264-1050 that is bandpassed at 315hz/36db and 10khz/6db right now. Keep in mind that there is a giant hump that goes from the driver's side sail to the passenger's side of the radio.









Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


----------



## derickveliz

narvarr said:


> Not trying to thead jack, but I have a question for both Derick and Kelvin. My A pillars don't extend out very far, or have much of an angle I should say. In this picture, where would you suggest would be a good place for the tweeters to optimal stage relative to listening position?
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


Your mids are too close to your ears!!!

... do you have Time Alignment? edit... Yes you have, I just spot a P'99 there. NICE!

What I would suggest is *move your mids to kick panels as far forward possible*, then mound your tweeters on the a'pillars facing each other or slightly towards the windshield.

Do some testing and your are going to be amazed! like me. It really works



Let me know


----------



## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


> *Kelvin, you are right!*
> Lots of reading make a difference on how you think! this is the 3rd time I do it and every time understand a little bit more.
> 
> Yes I adjusted the tweeters HPF to 8K and bump up Mid/bass LPF to 6.3 and there is a *big difference!*
> 
> *Some times makes me think about moving the Mids to kick panels, a good 4-5 inches more in favor of PLDs * but I still have the idea of the front woofer so that I think it won't fly.
> 
> I guess I'll just keep working on my *a-pillars Mids+tweeters, yes tweeters are not going on the sail panels any more.* I learn and found out that if I put the tweeters on the sail panels because _"the *huge PLD discrepancies* that come in play, Further out and up is better"_. quote from Sqcomp (another Yaris owner, with a Superb SQ system)
> 
> Thanks again, and* keep me learning ... "PLEASE"*
> 
> 
> .


Glad I could help  

Kelvin


----------



## subwoofery

narvarr said:


> Not trying to thead jack, but I have a question for both Derick and Kelvin. My A pillars don't extend out very far, or have much of an angle I should say. In this picture, where would you suggest would be a good place for the tweeters to optimal stage relative to listening position?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The factory sail pod currently houses a Peerless 830985 2.5" mid
> Peerless 830985 2-1/2" Full Range Woofer that is bandpassed at 315hz/36db and 10khz/6db right now. Keep in mind that there is a giant hump that goes from the driver's side sail to the passenger's side of the radio.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


Hook your tweeters up and listen to your system. Play with aiming mostly. Pillar location seems fine - go up and down the pillar to test for reflections off the dashboard. 
Please read my post regarding width - you're crossing very high so I suggest you use the pillars for your tweeters. 

Kelvin


----------



## narvarr

The only reason I'm crossed that high is because the Peerless get pretty nasty after 8k on axis and I currently have no tweeters in the install at all. The dashmat killed most of the reflections so I was able to raise it to 10k. 

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


----------



## derickveliz

narvarr said:


> The only reason I'm crossed that high is because the Peerless get pretty nasty after 8k on axis and I currently have no tweeters in the install at all. The dashmat killed most of the reflections so I was able to raise it to 10k.
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


some times I run my mids tweeter less and I like it. but each speaker to work hard and efficient to what was designed for.

to my ears almost all my tweeters and mids get nasty on axis, I rather run them off-axis hands down all the time, I learned this here and in my car over the last 12 months, like Kelvin said.... aiming is king and not only for tweeters.

sub 40
lows 40 to 163
mids 163 to 8k
high 8k to 20k

(o:


----------



## narvarr

derickveliz said:


> some times I run my mids tweeter less and I like it. but each speaker to work hard and efficient to what was designed for.
> 
> to my ears almost all my tweeters and mids get nasty on axis, I rather run them off-axis hands down all the time, I learned this here and in my car over the last 12 months, like Kelvin said.... aiming is king and not only for tweeters.
> 
> sub 40
> lows 40 to 163
> mids 163 to 8k
> high 8k to 20k
> 
> (o:


My mids are actually mounted off axis. Kind of hard to tell from the angle of the pic. My biggest issue was the on axis reflection I was getting off the dash before I installed the dashmat a couple days ago. But I still prefer more detail on the high end. Adding tweets will "help" with that but where to mount them is what I was pondering. I love your install and how you're sharing your info. Keep it coming

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


----------



## derickveliz

narvarr said:


> My mids are actually mounted off axis. Kind of hard to tell from the angle of the pic. My biggest issue was the on axis reflection I was getting off the dash before I installed the dashmat a couple days ago. But I still prefer more detail on the high end. Adding tweets will "help" with that but where to mount them is what I was pondering. I love your install and how you're sharing your info. Keep it coming
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


PM sent!


----------



## derickveliz

Sanding aka "no like" 

*Progress... *

Here are some pictures of the *a-pillars WIP...*





























.


----------



## derickveliz

Here is something I don't need to sand! *AKA 175watts x 2 for my L6's*




















.


----------



## derickveliz

I started with the soft filler that I used on the spheres to cover the really small uneven surfaces, tomorrow I suspect more sanding...

(o:


----------



## narvarr

I was going to ask if you were going to incorpotate the tweets into the pillars but I see from the pics you are. I'm assuming that's what the small ring above the mid is for.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


----------



## HondAudio

narvarr said:


> I was going to ask if you were going to incorpotate the tweets into the pillars but I see from the pics you are. I'm assuming that's what the small ring above the mid is for.
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


I was going to ask the same thing. With the ring 'glassed in from the back like that, the front of the pillar will be smooth and it won't be difficult to cut and roundover the hole.


----------



## derickveliz

narvarr said:


> I was going to ask if you were going to incorpotate the tweets into the pillars but I see from the pics you are. I'm assuming that's what the small ring above the mid is for.
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk





HondAudio said:


> I was going to ask the same thing. With the ring 'glassed in from the back like that, the front of the pillar will be smooth and it won't be difficult to cut and roundover the hole.



*Yes, That's the plan.* Simple and easy to do. I'm tired of sanding.

I'm giving up the *small spheres* too, to keep my* PLD's close together*, it really makes a big difference in stage, imaging and width.

The aiming played a big factor too, using the windshield to bound back high frequencies the tweets will be a few degrees towards the windshield.

.


----------



## RedDragon

It's awesome your build log..... First time when i see the pictures i said: NIKON..... hahahaha Sorry for the off-topics....

Hahahah It's my first post and also i owned a toyota.... 
(93 starlet build log coming soon) 

I shoot a D40, planning to upgrade to D7000.... 

I read that you're from guatemala, can you speak spanish?..... i used to read 
a venezuelan car audio website, dbsclub.org if you understand spanish you're welcome.

Very good DOF, which lens are you using? standard kit?


----------



## trojan fan

The build at keeps on giving...nice


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## derickveliz

RedDragon said:


> It's awesome your build log..... First time when i see the pictures i said: NIKON..... hahahaha Sorry for the off-topics....
> Hahahah It's my first post and also i owned a toyota....
> (93 starlet build log coming soon)
> I shoot a D40, planning to upgrade to D7000....
> I read that you're from guatemala, can you speak spanish?..... i used to read
> a venezuelan car audio website, dbsclub.org if you understand spanish you're welcome.
> Very good DOF, which lens are you using? standard kit?


*"Dragon Rojo"...* Thank you / Gracias

Yes I was born in *Guatemala* and I can speak Spanish! 
Gracias claro que si! *Toyota Starlets* where one of my favorite cars back in Guatemala 15 years ago.

I'm using a *Nikon D50* with different lenses. I'll check *dbsclub.org* for sure!

Thanks again! (o:


----------



## derickveliz

For now, more *sanding* and a couple of layers of *primer*, I did open a hole for the *L1v2s* but the thickness of the *glass* didn't let me use the plywood baffle behind, but all is good.

I'll *upload pictures* later for the record.

(o:


----------



## derickveliz

trojan fan said:


> The build at keeps on giving...nice


*Thank you!*

.


----------



## derickveliz

Pictures... "Work in Progress"














































.


----------



## derickveliz

Tweeter Gap...

Filling in the space! I learned this Technic securing servos into Foam wings of my r/c airplanes, forgot how we call it, but it's simple and works.


----------



## derickveliz

1st attempt *to get some texture*, final a-pillar finish *will be black *to hide away speakers. A little stealth factor in my equation!



















.


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## derickveliz

*Test fit the elements!...*


----------



## derickveliz

RedDragon said:


> i used to read
> a venezuelan car audio website, dbsclub.org if you understand spanish you're welcome.


*Dragon Rojo...*

I saw your post in *dbsclub.org* about my thread! Thank you so much, made me feel proud of my self! 

Now *I will be famous in Venezuela! Yeah!!!*

Gracias.

.


----------



## eighty5iv

derickveliz said:


> 1st attempt *to get some texture*, final a-pillar finish *will be black *to hide away speakers. A little stealth factor in my equation!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Does the texture feel rough or abrasive at all? I totally thought you wrapped it in carpet or something. It looks really nice as is, I am just now curious as how it will look dark. I can't wait for more pics.


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## s4turn

that looks really neat
awesome job on the pillars !


----------



## derickveliz

eighty5iv said:


> Does the texture feel rough or abrasive at all? I totally thought you wrapped it in carpet or something. It looks really nice as is, I am just now curious as how it will look dark. I can't wait for more pics.


*It's very rough, like sand paper. *

I didn't have a chance to paint them black, it's been raining since I came back from work.

.


----------



## derickveliz

s4turn said:


> that looks really neat
> awesome job on the pillars !


Thank you!

(o:


----------



## derickveliz

eighty5iv said:


> I can't wait for more pics.






























































































(o:


----------



## derickveliz

OK!

I did a test for my self that* I had to do... before continuing my install:*


I put the *MIDS down in the Kick panel area!* see pictures below my temporary installation.

*Thoughts: *

Yes* I could live with that!* It's amazing how our brains work, *stage is way up* around HU area. *Even I know and I see the speakers down there I hear and feel the music up there!*

The stage is *wide and smooth*, If I didn't have the option of going with the MIDS up in the a-pillars I would be very *pleased with the MIDS in the kick panels,* what I didn't like was that I found out why they call them kick panels! I was so afraid to *kick my mids*, but that's an issue that we can take care in the installation. 

If *I had a sports car or a car that you are close to the floor and your legs are stretch out forward,* I see a very convenient opportunity for *MIDS at kick panels,* on the Yaris even though PLDs are improved the kicks are kind of forward/ down, think like in a SUV that the kicks are 45 degrees or more from you. Maybe that is way the stage stops at the HU area.

Now *I'm going with the MIDS up on the a-pillars like you see in the pictures above,* because I want to take advantage of the *cavernous "Windshield - Dashboard" of the Yaris*, it's like a big open mouth, see your self other cars the windshield and the dashboard create a very small area, angle, how ever you call it, it doesn't compare with the Yaris' proportions. And *I'm going to take advantage of that!*

For example my Corolla doesn't brings me the same space, and some other cars have the *instrument cluster on the pilot's side*, the Yaris has a *symmetrical dashboard,* Yes my PLDs suffer *a penalty of about 2 inches* and the distance between speakers is less for about 3-4 inches, but *I can deal with that,* my PLDs are under 12 inches (9.5" for a-pillars scenario) and *the COOL factor* watching the cones of the MIDS move like little woofers it's *amazing!*



















Yeap! bags of rice are great to hold down your speakers!


----------



## derickveliz

*I finished the a-pillars they are pounding music!* awesome *center image,* just like if there was a speaker some where floating in the middle of the windshield above, *over the instrument cluster.* 

Yes I can tell the *stage got slightly smaller* by 1 or 2 inches, but after a while, just been amazed on *how good you can spot vocals/instruments/etc on the stage,* it's a trade that I'm happy to take, and I haven't played with *T/A or EQ,* this is where the fun starts.

I'll post some pictures of the a-pillars in place tomorrow.


----------



## n_olympios

Good stuff!


----------



## eighty5iv

amazing work. I can imagine how good the kicks are going to look and sound especially seeing your work on the a-pillars. were those the final pics you posted a few days pack? or are there more?


----------



## derickveliz

n_olympios said:


> Good stuff!


*Thanks!*



eighty5iv said:


> amazing work. I can imagine how good the kicks are going to look and sound especially seeing your work on the a-pillars. were those the final pics you posted a few days pack? or are there more?


*Thank you very much!*

*No kicks for me,* since I chose to go with my *Mids on the a-pillars*, and I would do kick panels for the *Lows, but....* I'm going to have *a front sub-woofer,* in front of the passengers seat, so that *takes away the space for the right kick*; the lows will go in the OEM speaker location at the doors (that's where they are now, I'm just going to upgrade to HAT L6's next week).

*A few days ago I posted pictures of the a-pillars un-installed* I'm going to take some pictures with the a-pillars actually in the car! and maybe a video too; showing the Mids moving! down from 160Hz to 8kHz

Thanks again!


----------



## narvarr

derickveliz said:


> *Thanks!*
> 
> 
> 
> *Thank you very much!*
> 
> *No kicks for me,* since I chose to go with my *Mids on the a-pillars*, and I would do kick panels for the *Lows, but....* I'm going to have *a front sub-woofer,* in front of the passengers seat, so that *takes away the space for the right kick*; the lows will go in the OEM speaker location at the doors (that's where they are now, I'm just going to upgrade to HAT L6's next week).
> 
> *A few days ago I posted pictures of the a-pillars un-installed* I'm going to take some pictures with the a-pillars actually in the car! and maybe a video too; showing the Mids moving! down from 160Hz to 8kHz
> 
> Thanks again!


Great work on those A-pillars! Those really turned out good. Just wait till you start playing with the L/R EQ ballance, the details REALLY start to jump out at you. Check out this thread: http://diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?p=145771

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


----------



## derickveliz

narvarr said:


> Great work on those A-pillars! Those really turned out good.


Thank you!


----------



## derickveliz

And the pictures... (sorry I didn't have my SLR so point and shoot for now)


----------



## HondAudio

Where's the "Like" button?


----------



## subwoofery

HondAudio said:


> Where's the "Like" button?


Yep... It actually suits your interior nicely... 

How does it sound compared to the old setup? Managed to get your 7 drums all at the same level? 

Kelvin


----------



## hugo23

Wow, that looks factory installed  

Have you any reflexions problems from the windshield?


----------



## FLYONWALL9

I'm going outside the box here.... I'm also a photo bug and your
comp is great, good job, mag quality if I may say.

Lastly the "Evercoat" (one of my fav brands) looks like "fairing 
compound" can you give me a product number. It also appears
to be easy to sand, how is it to work with?

Thanks in advance for your reply,
Scott


----------



## eighty5iv

that flows so well.


----------



## derickveliz

subwoofery said:


> Yep... It actually suits your interior nicely...
> How does it sound compared to the old setup? Managed to get your 7 drums all at the same level?
> Kelvin


Thanks Kelvin, the improvements are really nice, at first I could tell the *stage was slightly smaller by 1 or 2 inches*, the 7 drums are amazing, and far away from me, *if I stretch my arm I can't touch where they play* even though the fist 2 drums are slightly closer each other, but they are *high and level about my chin high and 35-40 inches in front of me, very impressive to listen to!*



hugo23 said:


> Wow, that looks factory installed
> Have you any reflexions problems from the windshield?


Thanks, *reflexions are every where in a small environment,* after I performed *AUTO TA/EQ* every thing turned out to be *BOLD and CRISP!* the image is *solid in the center*, and the *LOWS are outstanding* the stage stretch out about 1 inch outside the side windows.




FLYONWALL9 said:


> I'm going outside the box here.... I'm also a photo bug and your
> comp is great, good job, mag quality if I may say.
> Lastly the "Evercoat" (one of my fav brands) looks like "fairing
> compound" can you give me a product number. It also appears
> to be easy to sand, how is it to work with?
> Thanks in advance for your reply,
> Scott


Thanks Scott got the photo bug in my veins 
I'll get the information for the Evercoat, it's really easy to work.



eighty5iv said:


> that flows so well.


*Thank you!*


----------



## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> Where's the "Like" button?


*Thank you!*


----------



## Complacent_One

So jealous.....of the RAIN!!!

Oh yeah, diggin the execution of those pillars too!!!


----------



## derickveliz

Complacent_One said:


> So jealous.....of the RAIN!!!
> 
> Oh yeah, diggin the execution of those pillars too!!!



Don't worry it's not going to rain for a while here in the North-East.

This is my first a-pillar execution, I'm glad then came "ok" 

Thank you,


----------



## BowDown

Very nice man. She looks great. Have you started the upfront subwoofer?


----------



## derickveliz

BowDown said:


> Very nice man. She looks great. Have you started the upfront subwoofer?


*Thanks BD, I wish I had your building skills and audio knowledge.*

*The I6SW* should be here early next week, I've been thinking and thinking how I'm going to do it. *But I still...*

Have to install the *HAT L6s* with the new *IDQ 700.2 *

But basically *the I6SW* will run in a very shallow enclosure *of 0.35 cu.ft. with a 2inch Diameter 16 inch long port*, the woofer will be visible (facing upwards) but *the vent will be facing towards the fire wall* on the left side (trying to get the flow towards the middle of the car), mean while the enclosure will be on the floor in front of the passenger's seat and will get bigger as it runs under the glove compartment where the woofer will sit. 

Wish me luck and give me *36hour/days* (O:


----------



## derickveliz

I'm trying to post a video here...

didn't work )o:

Just click on the links:

LINK 1

LINK 2


I'm sorry quality is so bad )o: but give you an idea of the a-pillars

(o:


----------



## RedDragon

derickveliz said:


> *Dragon Rojo...*
> 
> I saw your post in *dbsclub.org* about my thread! Thank you so much, made me feel proud of my self!
> 
> Now *I will be famous in Venezuela! Yeah!!!*
> 
> Gracias.
> 
> .


You should dude...

But it's not my post...... Fockus user did.....

Excelente trabajo con esos mids, lastimosamente mi starlet tiene un tablero un tanto difícil, claro, no haré una instalación tan pulcra ni de tanta inversión, pero bueno, ya veremos que podré hacer...


----------



## derickveliz

RedDragon said:


> You should dude...
> 
> But it's not my post...... Fockus user did.....
> 
> Excelente trabajo con esos mids, lastimosamente mi starlet tiene un tablero un tanto difícil, claro, no haré una instalación tan pulcra ni de tanta inversión, pero bueno, ya veremos que podré hacer...


COOL!

Gracias!

I think if you measure your PLDs the Starlet would work better with Mids down far forward in the kick area, and a pair of tweeters up as far forward as you can on the a-pillars.

Give it a try!


----------



## NucFusion

Great build, love the pillars. Can't wait to see the up front subwoofers.


----------



## DAT

Dang, How did i miss this ?

Nice CLEAN work


----------



## jaikai

Mad skillz. Nice.


----------



## derickveliz

NucFusion said:


> Great build, love the pillars. Can't wait to see the up front subwoofers.


*Thank's, FedEx screw me up,* I was supposed to have the *I6SW today,* but no! I called and they will deliver on Friday! :bigcry:



DAT said:


> Dang, How did i miss this ?
> Nice CLEAN work


*Thank you, *I forgive you I think my *Yaris is too FAST!* jeje still I get 43-MPG though!



jaikai said:


> Mad skillz. Nice.


*GRRRRRRRRRRR * :freak: :whip:

*JKD... Thank you,* I really struggle with time, family, and lack of experience *but* I really like this hobby. 

.


----------



## bertholomey

Crap! Another fantastic build that I just noticed....that I will have to devote time to go from page 1....I have a feeling that it will be time very well spent. 


Just seeing the first few pictures - I am amazed at the night / day difference between a great SLR used by someone who knows how to shoot versus a point and shoot or a camera on the phone. Excellent!


----------



## Frank Drebin

Awesome thread!


----------



## derickveliz

bertholomey said:


> Crap! Another fantastic build that I just noticed....that I will have to devote time to go from page 1....I have a feeling that it will be time very well spent.
> 
> Just seeing the first few pictures - I am amazed at the night / day difference between a great SLR used by someone who knows how to shoot versus a point and shoot or a camera on the phone. Excellent!


*Thank you very much!*



Frank Drebin said:


> Awesome thread!


*Thanks!*





*BTW, I'm installing the IDQ-700.2 for the Lows! as I write this post*

.


----------



## derickveliz

2 a.m. and I just finished *installing the IDQ700.2 *

It's working, turn on and I get music from my 6.5 inch Hifonic Zeus components. *(if these sound good, I can't wait to put the HAT L6s)*

I can't tell how loud they play now, *everybody sleeping, just got it to volume 1, to make sure it's working.*

We'll see tomorrow.





























(o:


----------



## theunderfighter

Amazing reading through this thread. Honestly, looking at the end result, you would never be able to tell this is your first time doing this, or your hundredth. It looks great! I'm sure it'll only go quicker and easier in the future, but the quality is top-notch. It's great you're able to have so much fun with this


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

Those are no doubt some brochure quality photos. I've actually been planning to get something like a Canon 60D or Nikon D7000...eventually.


----------



## derickveliz

theunderfighter said:


> Amazing reading through this thread. Honestly, looking at the end result, you would never be able to tell this is your first time doing this, or your hundredth. It looks great! I'm sure it'll only go quicker and easier in the future, but the quality is top-notch. It's great you're able to have so much fun with this


*Thank you very much! I like the where you talk about the FUN I'm having with my install! Thanks again.*




ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> Those are no doubt some brochure quality photos. I've actually been planning to get something like a Canon 60D or Nikon D7000...eventually.


*Thanks!
This is what I did... I went to a local camera store, asked for 2 or 3 cameras, hold them in my hands and chose the one felt better! they are all good cameras, get the feeling, you can't go wrong with Canon or Nikon!*


----------



## derickveliz

My* little giant* is here! * "HAT I6SW"*







































































This is what a BOSE sub-woofer should look like! 

(O:


----------



## derickveliz

*Designing the enclosure* for the *I6SW*:

Ok, space required *0.35 cubic feet = 9.9 liters lets call it 10 liters*

So I got some pop-corn and filled a couple of bags with *10 litters of pop-corn* and ready to go:



























































































D.


----------



## derickveliz

I'm waiting for the 2" port...










From Precision Sound Products











I also need to get a 2" PVC-90 degrees elbow, from Lowes, the port needs to be almost 16" long.


,


----------



## derickveliz

OK, 2 a.m. again 

Tape night! there is something about this that I have no patience...































So the floor is not flat, there are some curves and bumps, to mold the cardboard I spray cleaner to the back and then let it sit with lots of weights on top, a day under the sun and will evaporate the liquid and hopefully the cardboard will hold it's shape. (and stay clean lol)

Next would be start glazing!

Any clues about* integrating MLV to the subwoofer enclosure build up?* or I'm just acting stupid? 

.


----------



## HondAudio

Is that woofer going to be firing into the floorboard?


----------



## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> Is that woofer going to be firing into the floorboard?


Yes, and will have enough space to move, all the bass will come out forward towards the fire-wall through the 2" port vent.

.


----------



## 4ofakind

Man it looks like you are loosing alot of footwell space. 
Just some ideas. Maybe a fiberglass enclosure could be made that starts from passenger kick and curves around footwell and runs down side of center console floor. It could be molded to be almost invisible.
Or maybe extend enclosure from passenger footwell up into glove box area and loose the glove box.

Just thoughts. Im 6'3" and would hate to loose that much legroom for friends or when the wife is driving and Im riding shotgun.

Mal


----------



## 4ofakind

Since it is a 6.5" Sub you might even mount it in the kick and use a curved enclosure as a type of transmission line that runs along the edge of the floor. Or build an enclosure in your fender.

Again just brain storming before the real work begins.

Mal


----------



## subwoofery

Don't remember, do you plan to use another subwoofer in the back or only the front mounted ported HAT? 

Kelvin


----------



## derickveliz

4ofakind said:


> Man it looks like you are loosing alot of footwell space.
> Just some ideas. Maybe a fiberglass enclosure could be made that starts from passenger kick and curves around footwell and runs down side of center console floor. It could be molded to be almost invisible.
> Or maybe extend enclosure from passenger footwell up into glove box area and loose the glove box.
> 
> Just thoughts. Im 6'3" and would hate to loose that much legroom for friends or when the wife is driving and Im riding shotgun.
> 
> Mal


*I hear you,* and I've been struggling about it.

Some things I've been considering:

-*99% of the time I'm the only one in my car *
-I'm 5'-8" and *seating on the passengers side it's OK for me*, my wife is 5'-0" I'm hoping she would understand the trade of having an *empty trunk. *
-The enclosure should be able to *take out of the car* quickly for full foot well space when need it
-The passengers seat should be able to move forward all the way
-I'm not an experience builder, so I'm trying to* keep it simple*
-The problem with the design considering internal volume 0.35cuft, woofer's magnet size and 16" of venting port of 2" diameter makes *the equation* a little bit more complicated. 

But I love to hear from you guys with cool ideas!



.


----------



## derickveliz

4ofakind said:


> Since it is a 6.5" Sub you might even mount it in the kick and use a curved enclosure as a type of transmission line that runs along the edge of the floor. Or build an enclosure in your fender.
> 
> Again just brain storming before the real work begins.
> 
> Mal


Mount it in the kick... the Yaris kick area is way to small for that and the I6SW too bulky.

a transmission line... I though about some thing like that but my lack of knowledge made me stick with the HAT recommendations for enclosure.

Fender... not really a lot of space there for the Yaris, *but it's a great idea!*


----------



## derickveliz

subwoofery said:


> Don't remember, do you plan to use another subwoofer in the back or only the front mounted ported HAT?
> 
> Kelvin


*Only the I6SW*, and if *"Little David (I6SW) vs Goliath (IDQ12)"* where I6SW doesn't perform good enough,... well the IDQ12 goes back to work.

.


----------



## 3cyltrbo

as a fellow Yaris owner I have to ask if you've considered the space behind the glove box?

also have you thought of lifting the carpet and removing that foam blocks under the carpet (they substitute for the pedal blocks because we have LHD, but in other markets that have RHD - the pedal blocks and related hardware would normally fill that space

Just a thought (I was able to get almost .25 with a square (MDF) box under the dash before I started cutting some redundant stuff ( I bet there is almost .40 cu-ft of dead air under the dash behind the glove box

W


----------



## 4ofakind

Ok Derick you make some valid points. And a removable box answers alot of questions. But we put the speakers in not to turn around and take them out. Plus Im lazy. 

Look at these pics you took:



















There appears to be a small amount of space in the glove box area next to a large piece of white plastic.
I'm thinking maybe you could mount the 6.5 downfiring in an fiberglass enclosure that hangs from the dash (below the glove box about 2" at most) with the magnet tucked in the space next to the large piece of white plastic. It shouldn't be more intrusive than a compression horn. Then curve the enclosure down into the footwell around your wife's dainty feet. Remove your kickpanel and mold in a small pocket there for extra air space. I included a hastily drawn napkin diagram for reference.

Or you could use the space there in that pocket forward and to the right of your shifter. It appears your 6.5 will mount there w/ a ring. Curve the enclosure around into the footwell/kickpanel and up into the dash slightly.

Ultimately though whatever you choose Im sure will turn out as well as the rest of your install; but thats all I got for ideas.

Mal


----------



## 4ofakind

Ok I was wrong. One last idea and then I'll shutup. How much room you got under the passenger seat? Maybe fire the sub up into the seat with the port firing forward toward the firewall. Ok done thinking out loud.

Mal


----------



## ecbmxer

I know you've already got this sub, but what about an IB trunk install with your IDQ12 (or x2 IDQ12). Or what about building a hanging ported enclosure from the rear deck into the trunk with this 6" woofer (again, or x2 6" woofers). You would lose very minimal trunk space I believe since it would be hanging from the rear deck, out of the way. Although, you would lose the upfront bass aspect you have going with this idea.


----------



## derickveliz

3cyltrbo said:


> as a fellow Yaris owner I have to ask if you've considered the space behind the glove box?
> 
> also have you thought of lifting the carpet and removing that foam blocks under the carpet (they substitute for the pedal blocks because we have LHD, but in other markets that have RHD - the pedal blocks and related hardware would normally fill that space
> 
> Just a thought (I was able to get almost .25 with a square (MDF) box under the dash before I started cutting some redundant stuff ( I bet there is almost .40 cu-ft of dead air under the dash behind the glove box
> 
> W


Behind the glove box I have *the Air fan unit, no space at all,* there is an access door to change the Cabin Air Filter...












*To the right there is some open space, like 4 liters* or so, but some where up there it's the passenger's Airbag, and I rather not mess with that my self, in the next photos looking through the opening of the globe box you see that area, where I ran my *layers of CCF an MLV on the fire-wall and A-frame. 
*
*If I had more building skills* and the time, I would probably look into that area, but I still have to consider the* internal volume of 0.35 (10 liters), the woofer it self and the 16" long-2" diameter ported vent!*























Yeah I remember that foam block that makes the floor even, I think I will let that dead space work for a quiet ride, besides the foam block a 1/4" of CCF and a layer of MLV would not cooperate either.


----------



## derickveliz

4ofakind said:


> Ok Derick you make some valid points. And a removable box answers alot of questions. But we put the speakers in not to turn around and take them out. Plus Im lazy.
> 
> Look at these pics you took:
> 
> There appears to be a small amount of space in the glove box area next to a large piece of white plastic.
> I'm thinking maybe you could mount the 6.5 downfiring in an fiberglass enclosure that hangs from the dash (below the glove box about 2" at most) with the magnet tucked in the space next to the large piece of white plastic. It shouldn't be more intrusive than a compression horn. Then curve the enclosure down into the footwell around your wife's dainty feet. Remove your kickpanel and mold in a small pocket there for extra air space. I included a hastily drawn napkin diagram for reference.
> 
> Or you could use the space there in that pocket forward and to the right of your shifter. It appears your 6.5 will mount there w/ a ring. Curve the enclosure around into the footwell/kickpanel and up into the dash slightly.
> 
> Ultimately though whatever you choose Im sure will turn out as well as the rest of your install; but thats all I got for ideas.
> 
> Mal


*I agree, I'm lazy too!* in the last couple of days I've been* thinking and playing around with the I6SW* in every possible position, it's not easy as it looks in the pictures, specially considering the fact that this will be a vented box, but *I do like the ideas that everybody is bringing to the table, makes my brain re-think again and again* before hitting the ground, besides this is more like an experiment with the I6SW. My plan was to build a simple vented box for the woofer and try it down there and get the feeling if it would work. Worst scenario I still have the* IDQ12* which I really like in the trunk or better up front, even if it takes all the space.

*But I have a very good feeling, the I6SW will be a hit, or even a home-run! *

.


----------



## derickveliz

4ofakind said:


> Ok I was wrong. One last idea and then I'll shutup. How much room you got under the passenger seat? Maybe fire the sub up into the seat with the port firing forward toward the firewall. Ok done thinking out loud.
> 
> Mal


I thought about that too, but there is a structural beam in the middle to pass the port, and there is not a lot of space there any way, Toyota is not giving me space to work around. 











.


----------



## derickveliz

ecbmxer said:


> I know you've already got this sub, but what about an IB trunk install with your IDQ12 (or x2 IDQ12). Or what about building a hanging ported enclosure from the rear deck into the trunk with this 6" woofer (again, or x2 6" woofers). You would lose very minimal trunk space I believe since it would be hanging from the rear deck, out of the way. Although, you would lose the upfront bass aspect you have going with this idea.


The open space in the trunk it's just a* selling point for my wife, jeje*

The main idea is to* bring the BASS up front* but still be able to have occasionally somebody as a passenger and *not block the speaker* at the right door. I know my IDQ12 is a perfect candidate for IB trunk install, it's some thing that I've been thing for a long time now, and yes *you are right!* the upfront bass is what I'm going after in this little project!











.


----------



## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


>


Just wondering if the magnet of the I6SW could fit in there? If yes, then you'd have an easier time building your enclosure  
Inverted subwoofer firing into the box that is. 

Kelvin 

PS: I'm in the same boat, trying to fit a shallow 10" sub in front of my girlfriend's car but it's more difficult for me coz I'm using ID horns :blush:


----------



## derickveliz

subwoofery said:


> Just wondering if the magnet of the I6SW could fit in there? If yes, then you'd have an easier time building your enclosure
> Inverted subwoofer firing into the box that is.
> 
> Kelvin
> 
> PS: I'm in the same boat, trying to fit a shallow 10" sub in front of my girlfriend's car but it's more difficult for me coz I'm using ID horns :blush:


*You got me thinking*, it's not a bad idea! I just got another shot of tonight's inspiration, it could work with your suggestion!

TX  I thought about shallow subs too, but when moving around my woofer in different orientations facing up wasn't so good, aiming is a key factor at least in my car. The IDQ12 is a wonderful woofer, but if not place correctly it would a complete "Shame" to show off.


----------



## derickveliz

Inspired with *4ofakind's ideas* I got this shot, that leaves the woofer exposed and brings more foot print area, with a little step foot rest area. But reading *Kelvin's and 4ofakind's idea* with an* inverted subwoofer firing into the box! *could be next! I still think that I should wait for the port and get an idea on *how big are the inside/outside flares!*






























Disregard the I6SW in this picture it's only holding the inclined board that holds the popcorn and 












Thanks to all!


----------



## derickveliz

Ok, the* port came in a little before Irene*, we are *ok*, and I had some time to think!

After *some ergonomic issues *about the sub box I also came with other option that runs the sub facing down and the 16 inches of port in a straight configuration instead of using the 90 degree elbow, I have 2 shots with *my 10 size working shoes and my wife's shoes as well.*

When I sit down a more comfortable position and natural posture of my feet. and the *10 liters of Popcorn shows that we are ok in the internal volume.* 

*I like this option*, not only because it's ergonomics but puts the port *facing forward more in the center of the car*, the woofer it's protected (I rather have it showing off, but it would be in the way of the *Heat/AC for the feet*), I can still *move the seat all the way forward.*

*Less writing and more pictures:*
















































D.


----------



## subwoofery

Just though of something while looking at my car's kick panels... Do you have space that behind the center console? 
What I mean is, you could build a box (in the passenger's kicks) so that the port goes from the passenger's kicks to the driver's side ( port going behind the air conditionning controllers) 

Stupid but who knows  

Kelvin


----------



## FLYONWALL9

I did an install (back in my install days) in an M3 where we put a sub in
the same location as what your doing. I built a box nearly exactly like 
your last photo's. I also built 2 more, one with the speaker firing towards
the trans hump and another with the speaker firing up into the dash. 
Both of those were vented. The very best one was the one where the
speaker fired towards the hump. I was also able to extend it under the
dash a couple inches where by reducing the amount it needed to extend
into the floor. That box was bearly the depth of the speaker and looked
like the hump was just extended slightly. That config may give you more
leg/foot room. If you haven't considered it.....

Nice work!!! really enjoy your thread...


----------



## derickveliz

subwoofery said:


> Just though of something while looking at my car's kick panels... Do you have space that behind the center console?
> What I mean is, you could build a box (in the passenger's kicks) so that the port goes from the passenger's kicks to the driver's side ( port going behind the air conditionning controllers)
> 
> Stupid but who knows
> 
> Kelvin


not stupid, *very clever and creative,* too bad Toyota it's not very good at leaving some extra space down there! 





FLYONWALL9 said:


> I did an install (back in my install days) in an M3 where we put a sub in
> the same location as what your doing. I built a box nearly exactly like
> your last photo's. I also built 2 more, one with the speaker firing towards
> the trans hump and another with the speaker firing up into the dash.
> Both of those were vented. The very best one was the one where the
> speaker fired towards the hump. I was also able to extend it under the
> dash a couple inches where by reducing the amount it needed to extend
> into the floor. That box was bearly the depth of the speaker and looked
> like the hump was just extended slightly. That config may give you more
> leg/foot room. If you haven't considered it.....
> 
> Nice work!!! really enjoy your thread...


*Thank you,* 
Sounds interesting, would you happen to have any pictures?

D.


----------



## 4ofakind

Derick, glad you came up w/ a ergonomicly feasible soultion. Im also glad my suggestions were somewhat helpful. At the risk of being a pest I will give one last suggestion:

Here you removed your center console and it appears to have some space forward and to the right of your gear shifter:










What if you take the woofer in your suggestion...










...and move it slightly; (Kinda what FLYONWALL9 suggested) but with the woofer in front instead of behind? Crude ref pic below.

Mal


----------



## derickveliz

4ofakind said:


> Derick, glad you came up w/ a ergonomicly feasible soultion. Im also glad my suggestions were somewhat helpful. At the risk of being a pest I will give one last suggestion:
> 
> Here you removed your center console and it appears to have some space forward and to the right of your gear shifter:
> 
> What if you take the woofer in your suggestion...
> 
> ...and move it slightly; (Kinda what FLYONWALL9 suggested) but with the woofer in front instead of behind? Crude ref pic below.
> 
> Mal


There is like *3/4 of a liter in front of the center console*, that's where all my RCA cables hang in there, I also would like to keep the storage pocket to keep stock look, and there is no space to the right of the gear shift, you should see me trying to *put back the panels,* the CCF and MLV filled in any extra space, and *I strugle *a lot, left the car in the middle of the parking lot on a very hot day then I went there and push-push and push, the temperature inside the car was around 109 F. 

The I6SW would never fit there, it's a little big 6.5 woofer! I did try, *All suggestions are welcome, and there is no stupid option but it's stupid not to see all the options! *

D.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

I really wish I did have photo's. I was on a "call basis" at this one shop
when they got something really odd or difficult. This was at a time when
digital cams used floppy discs. lol...... 

Anyway, while you have it all taped up like you do it would be VERY simple
to model an enclosure like I suggest. Simply use cardboard or some of that
poster board stuff is really cheap and easy to bend and mold to shape. Then
you can take it out of the car and pour your peanuts in to find out actual size.

I'm almost positive you would gain all the room you need if you fire it towards
the hump, and push it as far forward as possible. Also, you may gain room if
while your molding the floor mold the ring at the same time. This will give far
more strength to the ring to glass support and strength.


----------



## derickveliz

FLYONWALL9 said:


> I really wish I did have photo's. I was on a "call basis" at this one shop
> when they got something really odd or difficult. This was at a time when
> digital cams used floppy discs. lol......
> 
> Anyway, while you have it all taped up like you do it would be VERY simple
> to model an enclosure like I suggest. Simply use cardboard or some of that
> poster board stuff is really cheap and easy to bend and mold to shape. Then
> you can take it out of the car and pour your peanuts in to find out actual size.
> 
> I'm almost positive you would gain all the room you need if you fire it towards
> the hump, and push it as far forward as possible. Also, you may gain room if
> while your molding the floor mold the ring at the same time. This will give far
> more strength to the ring to glass support and strength.


Too bad, I know what you mean with *floppy discs!*

I'll try the *woofer facing the hump, and run the port behind* tonight, and Yes I was
thinking about molding the ring at the same time, not only for strength but to 
*keep it simple!*

Thanks

D.


----------



## ƒÆ§tÇµm

floppy what?! wait...oh, okay... "discs"...phew, i was about to say cameras back then were pretty weird.


----------



## derickveliz

*Deadening and Diesel trucks!*

check out this video:

LINK to VIDEO click HERE

or copy/paste this:

Yaris out si noise 2 - YouTube

D.


----------



## derickveliz

FLYONWALL9 said:


> I'm almost positive you would gain all the room you need if you fire it towards
> the hump, and push it as far forward as possible. Also, you may gain room if
> while your molding the floor mold the ring at the same time. This will give far
> more strength to the ring to glass support and strength.


*It's a very interesting option,* even can't really tell on the pictures the gain in space specially *stretching your legs it's a plus* in this option, on the negative I can't* push the seat all the way forward*, just a little bit. The* internal volume it's "ok"* too!

*Another good thing is that I could steel go with the L6's in kick panels!* if the doors don't like them.



















D.


----------



## 4ofakind

derickveliz said:


> *It's a very interesting option,* even can't really tell on the pictures the gain in space specially *stretching your legs it's a plus* in this option, on the negative I can't* push the seat all the way forward*, just a little bit. The* internal volume it's "ok"* too!
> 
> *Another good thing is that I could steel go with the L6's in kick panels!* if the doors don't like them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D.


D 

These pics (especially the top one) show what I thought I was suggesting. Maybe I just did not word it right. But anyway it is real easy for me to take credit when you are doing ALL the WORK. I look forward to the finished product.

Mal


----------



## derickveliz

4ofakind said:


> D
> 
> These pics (especially the top one) show what I thought I was suggesting. Maybe I just did not word it right. But anyway it is real easy for me to take credit when you are doing ALL the WORK. I look forward to the finished product.
> 
> Mal


*You got credit Mal!*

Long weekend @ Laconia NH just relaxing with family.

Last week coming back from work I was thinking what if... * I had the port in 2 sections using the 90 degree elbow*... 
The picture below shows what I was thinking, consider the port to be 3" shorter using the elbow. Today I was playing around with it and it's a really good option,
I still have to *figure out how much internal volume is, my guess is that it's pretty close!

We'll see:*

Sorry for the crappy cellphone picture


----------



## FLYONWALL9

I THINK, I see another way you can gain room and eliminate the need to extend
the enclosure so far towards the seat. I think I see a little lip or ledge in the fool
in your photo's. So, looks like you could just take a mold of the floor itself along
with the hump. Then build a false floor to gain the air space needed so that it isn't
so far towards the seats on the hump. So, you could raise the floor lets just say
1 1/2" to 1 3/4" across the entire floor space where your shoes are. This gain 
should be really drastic given the size of the floor. You could use something as
thin as 1/4" MDF and use biax cloth. This should give an composite floor far 
stronger than using glass alone.......


----------



## Mic10is

02 Mitsu Lancer OZ
Dayton Neo 8 in 6.5L enclosure









BMW E36
Exile XT10 which was changed to an SB Acoustics Neo 10 in finite baffle. Vents through Kick Panel area into inner fender.









both have ample foot room for passengers


----------



## derickveliz

It's true if the enclosure wasn't vented, a sealed box or IB would be much easier to accomplish.

Thanks for the pictures, I get the idea and the feeling that I'm not
alone and I'm not re-inventing the wheel again! LOL

D.


----------



## derickveliz

*So here is where the I6SW is for now:*

This new option, I think it's a keeper with a smaller foot print and just above the* 0.35 cubic feet* of internal air, the woofer facing the passenger's side and a *straight vent towards the fire-wall:*





















*Some spray 3M super 77 and fleece:*







































*Last night I did 2 more layers on the vertical side and trimmed the edges, so far is gaining weight.

D.*




.:smile:


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Very good Derick! Glad to see you pulled the trigger and settled on something for now anyway... 

This isn't meant at all to be critical. I may would have made a simple test box thrown it in and 
powered up in one way or another. Mostly to check and make sure the design wasn't directional. 
This was the only obstacle I dealt with in the ones I did. The reason why I loaded the cones off 
the hump because it did tend to reduce that effect. Your design reminds me of the OLD Kicker 
Comp (red dust cap) 6 1/2 subs. The results were fantastic, I loved those little subs. 

I think you will be pleased with the reduced overall footprint. Its coming along nicely so far, good job!

Cheers,
Scott


----------



## derickveliz

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Very good Derick! Glad to see you pulled the trigger and settled on something for now anyway...
> 
> This isn't meant at all to be critical. I may would have made a simple test box thrown it in and
> powered up in one way or another. Mostly to check and make sure the design wasn't directional.
> This was the only obstacle I dealt with in the ones I did. The reason why I loaded the cones off
> the hump because it did tend to reduce that effect. Your design reminds me of the OLD Kicker
> Comp (red dust cap) 6 1/2 subs. The results were fantastic, I loved those little subs.
> 
> I think you will be pleased with the reduced overall footprint. Its coming along nicely so far, good job!
> 
> Cheers,
> Scott


Thanks Scott, foot print was a key factor, I asked my lovely wife to sit and feed back to me with issues about space, this option was the less obstructive for her and my self too.

About aiming / directional yes is an issue that I'm trying to work in my favor, when I place the IDQ12 up front in many aiming positions the best one was facing forward, in this case the port tube will fire up to the firewall trying to get a similar effect to the IDQ12 facing forward.

And I know I should have done a test box, but it takes me so much effort to find some spare time to work on it, that this is the test box. If I don't like it compare to the IDQ12 in a sealed 1cuft box I will keep the 12 running up front, even if I have to deal with moving it to the trunk every time I have a passenger, not very often though.

The I6SW is my little experiment! 
thanks again!

(O:


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Hey no worries. I was glad some of my past exploits in some way helped, as little as it may have been. One trick to try if the cone lends itself to a sense of direction you can try to just cover the cone with a couple layers of grill cloth or even factory fabric. This may knock down just enough sound to kill that sense of direction. Its worth a try if you do end up with that effect before moving onto making another enclosure. Or even make a baffle in front of the speaker and vent it out the front. I load some home audio subs like this with good results. 

I completely understand the finding time issue, you gotta do what you can when you can. Like your build, I know mine will get there sooner or later.

Cheers,
Scott


----------



## derickveliz

FLYONWALL9 said:


> One trick to try if the cone lends itself to a sense of direction you can try to just cover the cone with a couple layers of grill cloth or even factory fabric. This may knock down just enough sound to kill that sense of direction. Its worth a try if you do end up with that effect before moving onto making another enclosure. Or even make a baffle in front of the speaker and vent it out the front. I load some home audio subs like this with good results.
> 
> Cheers,
> Scott


I will!  
Thanks again Scott.


----------



## bginvestor

Hey Derick,

Curious, how did you size out the tubes for your application? Are you going to run a two channel amp bridged for this speaker? ttyl


----------



## Yoursogansta

Nice work I was going to do something similar with a midbass years ago but never attempted. Make sure to give us a review how this location sounds.


----------



## derickveliz

bginvestor said:


> Hey Derick,
> 
> Curious, how did you size out the tubes for your application? Are you going to run a two channel amp bridged for this speaker? ttyl


*Simple I went to Hybrid's web site and got the specs for the box:*













*I have a PB ASA 1100.5x5 ch amp that powers the Tweeters, Mids and Subwoofer.* The other amp it's an IDQ700 for the Lows.


----------



## derickveliz

Yoursogansta said:


> Nice work I was going to do something similar with a midbass years ago but never attempted. Make sure to give us a review how this location sounds.


*I will,* but I dare to think it's going to be really good!

(O:


----------



## bginvestor

Get-R-done!


----------



## Yepvegas

Subscribed i am also considering a sub installed in the car and not in the trunk. Great build so far.


----------



## derickveliz

What about some Spy cam pictures...

*Small foot print, not bad at all when I'm seating on the passenger's side!*












From Pilot's point of view:











Getting in the car...











D.


----------



## derickveliz

Yepvegas said:


> Subscribed i am also considering a sub installed in the car and not in the trunk. Great build so far.


Thanks,
When I experimented to put the bass up front... I just fell in love 

(o:


----------



## FLYONWALL9

NICE use of space!

Glad you didn't try to reinvent the wheel. I hope that it works as great for you like that as ones I've done. I'm sure that it will. NOT trying to take credit at all! I've just done this type of enclosure a couple times and both have come out great. ONLY, we didn't have the quality of driver back then as you have......

GREAT STUFF.


----------



## 4ofakind

FLYONWALL9 said:


> NICE use of space!
> 
> NOT trying to take credit at all!


Aww, Come On! Take Some credit. 

Lookin good Derick.

Mal


----------



## FLYONWALL9

derickveliz said:


> I will!
> Thanks again Scott.


Your more than welcome but you did the work buddy..... It was
just a hunch from someone who hasn't been able to build for about
5 years. Needless to say I ready LOTS.

I am however, very glad it worked for you. The enclosure looks breat
and looks like it takes up FAR less space than the taped out drawn 
out option. 

I WANNA KNOW how it sounds and tunes. Just wish I could hear it.

Cheers buddy.
Scott


oh by the way...
Keep in mind I have about a 3 week short term memory. meds and other stuff


----------



## bginvestor

Yup, I like the way it wraps around the center console... :thumbsup:


----------



## derickveliz

Thanks guys, the credit it's all yours!

Going downstairs to get that fleece wet and hot! 
(in a good way)

(o:


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Ok we get it you plan to take the wife out and its raining. You
full expect her to prop her feet up..


----------



## derickveliz

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Ok we get it you plan to take the wife out and its raining. You
> full expect her to prop her feet up..


How did you know it was raining? LOL

.


----------



## derickveliz

Done! 

Uff!!! harder than I thought. 15 flat O.Z. of resin (3x5 O.Z.), that fleece absorbs like a sponge.

Never really worked with that much of resin, I'm glad I did 5 O.Z. at a time.

I wonder what it means to work on a big sub-box! lots of resin I believe.

All good.


----------



## derickveliz

Ok, some building pictures of the mini subbox:


----------



## prettysweetsounds

You've got some great ideas and some serious skills! Thanks for the inspiration.


----------



## gtrplyr

awesome tweeter pods!


----------



## derickveliz

prettysweetsounds said:


> You've got some great ideas and some serious skills! Thanks for the inspiration.


*Thank you, It's been a long journey, with lots of learning and a trail & error process.*





gtrplyr said:


> awesome tweeter pods!


*Thanks, the a-pillars came better than I thought, too bad that the Mids will part way down South.*

(o:


----------



## derickveliz

*A question for the experts, what is the best way to give the upper skin a solid structure? just keep adding layers of glass? *

-

A couple of shots with 15 O.Z. of resin:



















(o:


----------



## Mic10is

cut out the woofer hole. reinforce from the inside with fiberglass matting. Lots of it. I use 1.5oz matting from Shopmaninc and do like 5 layers for most sub enclosures


----------



## derickveliz

Mic10is said:


> cut out the woofer hole. reinforce from the inside with fiberglass matting. Lots of it. I use 1.5oz matting from Shopmaninc and do like 5 layers for most sub enclosures


That's going to be hard, I can barely get my hand in there  



D.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Just trying to help save you some money, give constructive comments here, and trying not to be critical. But based on the photo's when you just had the shell (because its easiest to see your layups). But you could prolly cut your resin usage down by 1/2 or 3/4 of what you current use. Really when you do a lay-up the look of the glass should resemble of damp or slightly damp First Aid gauze. Just use a cheap brush and slightly wet it out. Then use an roller to push out any bubbles. Leave that left over resin to then lay another dry piece. You may could even lay up to 3 layers of chopped strand without any more resin. Your fleece should only be used for the mold process then you scuff off the amine blush (glossy looking stuff) IF the part has sat over something like 12hrs. This helps the next layers cut into the orig.

This enclosure at the most would take me 6-8oz of resin, depending on thickness. This is why I use spandex, or women's Yoga pants type of material. Thin is best on a small part like this. 

If you cant fine one local I can send you one in the mail. but they can be found in boat stores. west marine, or boaters world, something of that nature. Example near the bottom. Just get a gal can of Acetone and put the roller end in the jug letting the handle hold it up. Would last months doing this. After use.

Again, just trying to help. AND GREAT JOB on the recap, helps me out LOADS. 

Fiberglass Tools & Supplies: TAP Plastics

SCOTT


----------



## derickveliz

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Just trying to help save you some money, give constructive comments here, and trying not to be critical. But based on the photo's when you just had the shell (because its easiest to see your layups). But you could prolly cut your resin usage down by 1/2 or 3/4 of what you current use. Really when you do a lay-up the look of the glass should resemble of damp or slightly damp First Aid gauze. Just use a cheap brush and slightly wet it out. Then use an roller to push out any bubbles. Leave that left over resin to then lay another dry piece. You may could even lay up to 3 layers of chopped strand without any more resin. Your fleece should only be used for the mold process then you scuff off the amine blush (glossy looking stuff) IF the part has sat over something like 12hrs. This helps the next layers cut into the orig.
> 
> This enclosure at the most would take me 6-8oz of resin, depending on thickness. This is why I use spandex, or women's Yoga pants type of material. Thin is best on a small part like this.
> 
> If you cant fine one local I can send you one in the mail. but they can be found in boat stores. west marine, or boaters world, something of that nature. Example near the bottom. Just get a gal can of Acetone and put the roller end in the jug letting the handle hold it up. Would last months doing this. After use.
> 
> Again, just trying to help. AND GREAT JOB on the recap, helps me out LOADS.
> 
> Fiberglass Tools & Supplies: TAP Plastics
> 
> SCOTT


Thanks Scott, 
I just went through your build, very impressive! I wish I had all your skills and knowledge working with fiberglass. :crown:


----------



## bginvestor

derickveliz said:


> That's going to be hard, I can barely get my hand in there
> 
> 
> 
> D.


If trying to get a consistent layer thickness is too difficult from the "inside" of the enclosure, just do it on the outside.

Remember, its the fiberglass, not resin that provides the strength. A weak structure will degrade the sound quality.

Did you get the volume that you wanted? This is critical to get the proper tune frequency. 

Looks good.


----------



## derickveliz

bginvestor said:


> If trying to get a consistent layer thickness is too difficult from the "inside" of the enclosure, just do it on the outside.
> 
> Remember, its the fiberglass, not resin that provides the strength. A weak structure will degrade the sound quality.
> 
> Did you get the volume that you wanted? This is critical to get the proper tune frequency.
> 
> Looks good.


Yes that's what *I'm doing the outside!*

I understand about the strength and fiberglass, but what about different kinds of fiberglass like the one that looks like hair going in every direction and the one that goes in 2 directions, I used both but the one in 2 directions was easier to work with? 

*The target volume is 0.35 cubic feet*, I haven't confirm that number but I did make sure I wasn't short, *I'm sure that I have more internal volume*, but that's an easy fix, you know.

Thank you!


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Derick,
If you want to put down one of the strongest layers possible, I would use biaxial cloth. What you can do is just a very thin blade and cut the back off about 1" or so in from the sides or even cut it at the side. Then you just glass it back together. I wont hurt it one bit, this is the great thing about working with fiberglass. If you need to mod something you can always piece it back together. 

I have some biaxial left over from my last boat build. If you send me some patterns I can cut them out and mail them back to you. Just pay the 5 bucks or whatever for the flat rate box. This is what I am going to build my sub enclosure with. I plan to only use 1/4" wood then laminate it on each side. This should be as strong if not stronger than MDF. Doing this to keep weight down. 

Anyway, if you want to take me up on my offer just PM me and I'll send my mailing address.

Cheers,
Scott

click on any photo to enlarge to see the weave.
http://boatbuildercentral.com/products.php?cat=45

OR if you want you could send me the enclosure (may only cost 10-12 bucks) and I would be more than happy to do it for you. Like bginvestor said, its the fiberglass that gives you the strength. That said once you get your resin applied/wet out use a body filler spreader to press the glass onto the surface your glassing. This is what beds the glass into your part. Once you've done this the glass will look like that dry gauze look I was telling you about. Once it gets sticky to the touch you can add another layer wet-on-wet. Once it cures the weave will look like its not fully coated and rough. This is when you just go back with resin to fill the weave. This last step isn't all that important if the layers are on the inside and not seen.

SORRY FOR THE RAMBLE. meds tend to do that


----------



## derickveliz

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Derick,
> If you want to put down one of the strongest layers possible, I would use biaxial cloth. What you can do is just a very thin blade and cut the back off about 1" or so in from the sides or even cut it at the side. Then you just glass it back together. I wont hurt it one bit, this is the great thing about working with fiberglass. If you need to mod something you can always piece it back together.
> 
> I have some biaxial left over from my last boat build. If you send me some patterns I can cut them out and mail them back to you. Just pay the 5 bucks or whatever for the flat rate box. This is what I am going to build my sub enclosure with. I plan to only use 1/4" wood then laminate it on each side. This should be as strong if not stronger than MDF. Doing this to keep weight down.
> 
> Anyway, if you want to take me up on my offer just PM me and I'll send my mailing address.
> 
> Cheers,
> Scott
> 
> click on any photo to enlarge to see the weave.
> Boat Builder Central - products
> 
> OR if you want you could send me the enclosure (may only cost 10-12 bucks) and I would be more than happy to do it for you. Like bginvestor said, its the fiberglass that gives you the strength. That said once you get your resin applied/wet out use a body filler spreader to press the glass onto the surface your glassing. This is what beds the glass into your part. Once you've done this the glass will look like that dry gauze look I was telling you about. Once it gets sticky to the touch you can add another layer wet-on-wet. Once it cures the weave will look like its not fully coated and rough. This is when you just go back with resin to fill the weave. This last step isn't all that important if the layers are on the inside and not seen.
> 
> SORRY FOR THE RAMBLE. meds tend to do that


PM sent.. (O:

Thank Scott.


----------



## derickveliz

Just for the record:

*Biaxial Fabric:*


----------



## FLYONWALL9

ANY TIME BUDDY.....

the PM didn't go through.???

This is the best photo I could turn up. I can also take you a photo of the material I use, same as you see here though. Note the difference in the pic you posted, see the weave in my photo. This is what makes this stuff so strong. The stitching is to keep it all together, without it POOF...


----------



## subwoofery

FLYONWALL9 said:


> ANY TIME BUDDY.....
> 
> the PM didn't go through.???
> 
> This is the best photo I could turn up. I can also take you a photo of the material I use, same as you see here though. Note the difference in the pic you posted, see the weave in my photo. This is what makes this stuff so strong. The stitching is to keep it all together, without it POOF...


Guess it would be the same thing as using a rope to strengthen your box... 

Kelvin


----------



## bginvestor

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Derick,
> If you want to put down one of the strongest layers possible, I would use biaxial cloth.


:thumbsup: It might be easier using smaller pieces going around sharp curvatures. good luck.


----------



## derickveliz

OK, here we go, *sit down and check it out! I have 2 updates:*


The most important, isn't the little subwoofer, it's about front stage and that my MIDS are gone for now! YES that's what you read... I did disconnect my mids *(so good by to all the work on the a-pillars)*, and this is why:

(I wrote this a few weeks ago, but didn't wanted to post until now)...

Now I understand how to achieve good front stage, image, depth for a great SQ system. *(at least to a degree level of my knowledge) *

After trying every position and aiming possible ending up with my mids at the a-pillars tuned and every thing... sounds amazing in every way, but I learn many other facts... *and how to improve it.*

My HU let's me switch back and forth from a 2 way to a 3 way in a few seconds, (Mute the mids change x-over points for mid/bass and tweeters at the same time)* incredible I can make my 2 way sound better without the MIDS* and depending on the song sometimes I can't tell the difference, and this is with just a flip of a switch. My conclusion is that PLD's play a huge roll for SQ, Time Alignment it's a must in junction with EQ.

*Me going from 3 way to 2 way:*

*1 "MUTE" mids
2 tweeters go down from 8kHz to 6.3kHz (HPF)
3 Lows go up from 1.6Hz to 6.3kHz* (LPF)

In some songs I can tell the 3 way is crisper and the stage is up a little bit but I can tell... a little harsh with high frequencies *(must be the reflections from the windshield)* but.... *a narrower stage!* and a less focused center image (2 different drivers trying to accomplish a good image gave me a muddy center image), so I start wondering why? and I knew that... 

PLD's plays a big factor even if it's just inches: my mids and lows (in doors) have the same PLDs that is one of the reasons when I go from 3 way to 2 way I barely feel a difference or improvement from one to the other.

Also check that when I have the MIDs playing in the a-pillars the distance between components is shorter, so in my 3 way configuration with mids in the A-pillars my stage is "SMALLER-NARROWER, NOT AS WIDE"

Also to compensate for that smaller stage the x-over point goes up (in my case to 1.6kHz) this defeats all the performance of a good mid with the ability to play low around 200Hz, almost any cheap speaker can do from 1.6 to 6.3/8kHz where the tweeter picks up, this brings my Lows (6.5" drivers in doors) to go from 63Hz up to 1.6kHz so my stage grows up but my TA starts to struggle, remember that TA doesn't really mater after 2kHz and *I loose my point source!* by having to divide the frequencies from 200Hz to around 6kHz to aloud point source.

So in my case, I don't have space to move my 6.5" drivers to the kick area, but I can use my *3" MID as a point of source into the A-frame,* this will make my stage wider and deeper away from me (that's what you want in SQ), why?... PLD's are more efficient when placing a point source (MID) as far forward possible! so in the near future that's what it's going to be, *my MIDs will go in the kick area.*

As of today, I've been driving and playing with my set up, for more than 5K miles, learning and experimenting, most of the time (90%) playing my music with the MIDs in "MUTE" position, just because sounds better, I can improve my set up by re-installing my MIDs in the kick area.

And I know in Music and SQ/car it's all relative to the listener, What I write here is my personal opinion from many hours of playing around, reading and experimenting, but you've seen my install, from spheres to a-pillars, and I enjoy sharing with you my thoughts, I'm open to any opinion, I'm learning this stuff and believe me I enjoy every tiny bit of this install, *trail and error got me where I'm today!*

*
Now with the I6SW:*
This one is not going to "MUTE" no way, I finish the enclosure so I could try and play with it, (so it's not completely finished)
It's late so I didn't crank it up, I did have to move some settings in my HU like time alignment and bump up the db a little bit, even with a new woofer and at low volume hits very nice, goes low and merges very well with the LOWS, so let me play with it for 20-30 hours (break in period) and will update about it, so far at low volume sounds very positive, we'll see with more watts, volume, road noise, etc... how responds! (just for the record I have a big smile on my face :biggrin



I was at my sisters place and *I did not resist to take a picture [with my cell phone!]*


----------



## subwoofery

Shorter PLD is king IMO. Too bad I can't do kicks in my girlfriend's car  

Also: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1419155-post6032.html 

Kelvin


----------



## bginvestor

Hey man,

So your saying that switching to 2-way (1.6 khz on up) sounds better in some cases than a 3-way system? If yes, that is very interesting to me since your missing frequencies up to 1.6 khz! You should hear a huge difference in male vocals.

ttyl


----------



## edman79

A properly done 2 way almost always sounds better than a properly done 3 way.

Eddie Ed


----------



## bginvestor

Oh, and adding mids in the kicks is a kick a$$ idea.

In the Ridgeline, my mids are in the doors, but only go up to ~400 hz. 400 hz and up comes from my kicks. After lots of listening, I am finding out this is a good combination for me, since 400 hz and up bandwidth is point sourced for sound stage quality.

Make sure you ears don't pick up vocals are coming from both kick panel and A pillar area or else sound stage will not be perfect. This should be confirmed w/ your listening tests.

ttyl


----------



## bginvestor

edman79 said:


> A properly done 2 way almost always sounds better than a properly done 3 way.
> 
> Eddie Ed


:earmuffs:


----------



## derickveliz

bginvestor said:


> Hey man,
> 
> So your saying that switching to 2-way (1.6 khz on up) sounds better in some cases than a 3-way system? If yes, that is very interesting to me since your missing frequencies up to 1.6 khz! You should hear a huge difference in male vocals.
> 
> ttyl


Don't get me wrong, I'm not leaving any freq. out:

*3 way system* after Auto T/A+EQ from P99 (I'm not showing slopes here)

................LPF.........HPF
Tweeters: 8kHz to 20kHz
Mids: 1.6kHz to 6.3kHz 
Lows: 63Hz to 1.6kHz


*2 way system:*

................LPF.........HPF
Tweeters: 6.3kHz to 20kHz
Mids: "MUTE" 
Lows: 63Hz to 6.3kHz

I hope that clarifies the 1.6kHz issue! (O:
I'm sorry my English is not very good


----------



## derickveliz

edman79 said:


> A properly done 2 way almost always sounds better than a properly done 3 way.
> 
> Eddie Ed


I agree, if I could put in the A-frame my L6s and my tweeters on the A-pillars would be much better, like Scott B's with L8SE in the A-frame new G35 show car; but since I can't fit my L6s in the A-frame I will put my 3" MID in the A-Frame as point source for my system, (further away from me but still visual contact) and the LOWS will stay in doors, and tweeters stay in a-pillars.


----------



## bertholomey

edman79 said:


> A properly done 2 way almost always sounds better than a properly done 3 way.
> 
> Eddie Ed


Trying to get a handle on the basis for this...mostly from your listening experience of various cars or from a more scientific perspective (less drivers, less problems - more in the theoretical realm)?




derickveliz said:


> I agree, if I could put in the A-frame my L6s and my tweeters on the A-pillars would be much better, like Scott B's with L8SE in the A-frame new G35 show car; but since I can't fit my L6s in the A-frame I will put my 3" MID in the A-Frame as point source for my system, (further away from me but still visual contact) and the LOWS will stay in doors, and tweeters stay in a-pillars.


.....so you are going to continue with 3 way?


----------



## derickveliz

bertholomey said:


> .....so you are going to continue with 3 way?


*YES!*
My stage it's about 2 feet from me now, since my *point source is at the OEM door location* now (in a 2 way configuration),* to push it farther* I'll install my MIDs in the *kick area (a-frame) and go with a 3 way system* (o:


.


----------



## derickveliz

bertholomey said:


> Trying to get a handle on the basis for this...mostly from your listening experience of various cars or from a more scientific perspective (less drivers, less problems - more in the theoretical realm)?


The physical characteristics of the car limits your install options. 

.


----------



## ErinH

derickveliz said:


> The physical characteristics of the car limits your install options.
> 
> .


Conversely, limited polar decreases the FR.


----------



## narvarr

derickveliz said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm not leaving any freq. out:
> 
> *3 way system* after Auto T/A+EQ from P99 (I'm not showing slopes here)
> 
> ................LPF.........HPF
> Tweeters: 8kHz to 20kHz
> Mids: 1.6kHz to 6.3kHz
> Lows: 63Hz to 1.6kHz
> 
> 
> *2 way system:*
> 
> ................LPF.........HPF
> Tweeters: 6.3kHz to 20kHz
> Mids: "MUTE"
> Lows: 63Hz to 6.3kHz
> 
> I hope that clarifies the 1.6kHz issue! (O:
> I'm sorry my English is not very good


The P99 does some weird stuff with the x-over points with auto T/A. 1.6k seems to be the default for some reason. Use your own x-over points and slopes (custom network)with the P99 and then do Auto EQ/TA. The results should be better. As far as T/A, measure the distance of your speakers first to get a baseline of where your T/A should be. The reflections off the windshield throws the auto T/A off a bit. For example, when I do auto T/A, it is pretty close to within 3cm +/- of what I measured, but my right side mid is always off by almost 100cm. With my setup, reversing the polarity of your mids helped widen the stage, and keeping the mids in correct polarity and reversing the midbass pushed the stage further out (deepen the stage).
My setup is close to yours but my mids are in the sails like Scott's G35.
Hope that helps.


----------



## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


> *YES!*
> *My stage it's about 2 feet from me now*, since my *point source is at the OEM door location* now (in a 2 way configuration),* to push it farther* I'll install my MIDs in the *kick area (a-frame) and go with a 3 way system* (o:
> 
> 
> .


I actually don't see that as a problem... You can still have a stage that starts 1 feet from you and have depth that goes out on the front hood...  

Kelvin


----------



## derickveliz

bikinpunk said:


> Conversely, limited polar decreases the FR.


OK, you got me, please explain to me.

.:worried:


----------



## derickveliz

narvarr said:


> The P99 does some weird stuff with the x-over points with auto T/A. 1.6k seems to be the default for some reason. Use your own x-over points and slopes (custom network)with the P99 and then do Auto EQ/TA. The results should be better. As far as T/A, measure the distance of your speakers first to get a baseline of where your T/A should be. The reflections off the windshield throws the auto T/A off a bit. For example, when I do auto T/A, it is pretty close to within 3cm +/- of what I measured, but my right side mid is always off by almost 100cm. With my setup, reversing the polarity of your mids helped widen the stage, and keeping the mids in correct polarity and reversing the midbass pushed the stage further out (deepen the stage).
> My setup is close to yours but my mids are in the sails like Scott's G35.
> Hope that helps.


Interesting information, I will play with my set up a little bit more!

I kind of understand why after auto T/A put my MIDs at 1.6 and let the LOWS play that high, When I had my MIDs in spheres more on-axis put my MIDS at 400.

Thanks for the info. :thumbsup:


----------



## derickveliz

subwoofery said:


> I actually don't see that as a problem... You can still have a stage that starts 1 feet from you and have depth that goes out on the front hood...
> 
> Kelvin


Please expand...

I guess I was referring to the singer on each song, most of them sing about 2 feet from me in the center of the dashboard about my chin level.

D.


----------



## derickveliz

*Ok, here are the first 100 miles of the I6SW...*


I have to be honest here... I was very exited this morning when I jumped in my car, and got my self going... the fist 10 miles... mmm, _*"Maybe I should use 2 I6SW" *_ I was a little dissapointed maybe even more because I remember thinking _*"I'm moving back the IDQ up front"*_

Well heading to my destination after 40 miles or so... I forgot I was testing the I6SW, and _*"What? this sounds good, feels like that little woofer it's growing"*_ no kidding started to come alive! well sort of.

By the time I was almost back home after 80 miles or so,* I just couldn't believe it!* I don't want to write here that "Hits Hard" *it doesn't* I'm sure I'm not going to wake up my neighbors, but the BASS up front is great! my chest, my arms, my shoulders are witness of this wonderful effect!

When I got home with a big smile on my face, I can tell you... this is not a LOUD woofer, it doesn't shake the car like crazy, but man does plays *"JUST RIGHT"*, This is what I wanted, some thing really cool, that sounds great, makes my music feel "BOLD" and at least to me a sweet spot for Sound Quality. And the fact that now* I feel the BASS coming from the front,* hitting my chest! vrs the BASS Shaking my seat and that rumble coming from the back. I really love having the BASS up front! You can tell I'm happy! :biggrin:

Ok ok,... too many good things about it, so here we go it's not a little monster, that likes to play at super high volumes (I don't really listen music at super high volumes any whay) it's more sensitive to changes than the IDQ12, and it sounds really good with some music but I didn't like it when *playing rap music, it just didn't feel right,* maybe after a break in period I could give more details. I remember the same feelings when I installed* my IDQ12, at the beginning was so-so, but after a while turned into a really good woofer. *

Now I have three *10" Kicker Solo Baric woofers, one 10" Bazooka tube, one IDQ12;* all these sound great, I was impressed with the Bazooka, and the power handling of the Solo Baric, and the IDQ12 has a special place in my heart, but nothing compares to the feeling having the BASS up front where everything else is happening.

For now the first two and a half hours took me from in-satisfaction to a _*"wow this sounds great, not bad for a 6.5" woofer"*_









.


----------



## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


> Please expand...
> 
> I guess I was referring to the singer on each song, most of them sing about 2 feet from me in the center of the dashboard about my chin level.
> 
> D.


What you want is stage positionning to be further out from you... Which is different from soundstage depth (that you also want ) 
Mic explains it better than me: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1071370-post3.html 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1417676-post16.html 

For more info, try to google diymobileaudio, score, depth, competition  

Easiest way to have a stage positionning further out from you is to put your speakers further out from you... Easy isn't it?  

Depth is from tuning and speaker orientation... 

Kelvin


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Cool to see your enthusiasm.

When I tuned the systems that I did with enclosures like yours I would cross over higher than the sub in the back. I could chop the sub in the back at lets say 50hz where the front woofer would pick up. I then would gain down the front sub. This should blend in nicely with the front midbass drivers. I never really liked the sound of trying to get the front subwoofer to play that low. You get a nice impact from the front woofer. The rear should be gained such that it will appear to also be in the front of the car. If you have T/A this is much easier. 

Are you not using a sub in the rear at all? If your not, you should try your ID or a single SoloBaric. I LOVED my Kicker when I had it. That little jewel would put out 132-34db with an Alpine 3548 in my CRX. Again, if your not looking to push monster db, just gain it down and cross it very low. This should also add a bit of depth to your stage. Like what Subwoofery said.


----------



## bginvestor

derickveliz said:


> *Ok, here are the first 100 miles of the I6SW...*
> 
> 
> I have to be honest here... I was very exited this morning when I jumped in my car, and got my self going... the fist 10 miles... mmm, _*"Maybe I should use 2 I6SW" *_ I was a little dissapointed maybe even more because I remember thinking _*"I'm moving back the IDQ up front"*_
> 
> Well heading to my destination after 40 miles or so... I forgot I was testing the I6SW, and _*"What? this sounds good, feels like that little woofer it's growing"*_ no kidding started to come alive! well sort of.
> 
> By the time I was almost back home after 80 miles or so,* I just couldn't believe it!* I don't want to write here that "Hits Hard" *it doesn't* I'm sure I'm not going to wake up my neighbors, but the BASS up front is great! my chest, my arms, my shoulders are witness of this wonderful effect!
> 
> When I got home with a big smile on my face, I can tell you... this is not a LOUD woofer, it doesn't shake the car like crazy, but man does plays *"JUST RIGHT"*, This is what I wanted, some thing really cool, that sounds great, makes my music feel "BOLD" and at least to me a sweet spot for Sound Quality. And the fact that now* I feel the BASS coming from the front,* hitting my chest! vrs the BASS Shaking my seat and that rumble coming from the back. I really love having the BASS up front! You can tell I'm happy! :biggrin:
> 
> Ok ok,... too many good things about it, so here we go it's not a little monster, that likes to play at super high volumes (I don't really listen music at super high volumes any whay) it's more sensitive to changes than the IDQ12, and it sounds really good with some music but I didn't like it when *playing rap music, it just didn't feel right,* maybe after a break in period I could give more details. I remember the same feelings when I installed* my IDQ12, at the beginning was so-so, but after a while turned into a really good woofer. *
> 
> Now I have three *10" Kicker Solo Baric woofers, one 10" Bazooka tube, one IDQ12;* all these sound great, I was impressed with the Bazooka, and the power handling of the Solo Baric, and the IDQ12 has a special place in my heart, but nothing compares to the feeling having the BASS up front where everything else is happening.
> 
> For now the first two and a half hours took me from in-satisfaction to a _*"wow this sounds great, not bad for a 6.5" woofer"*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Cool.. so are you going to finish the box and keep in the car for awhile?


----------



## derickveliz

subwoofery said:


> What you want is stage positionning to be further out from you... Which is different from soundstage depth (that you also want )
> Easiest way to have a stage positionning further out from you is to put your speakers further out from you... Easy isn't it?
> Depth is from tuning and speaker orientation...
> Kelvin


*Exactly that's what I'm going to do by placing my mids in the A-Frame!
Thanks for all the information, got to do some reading. 
I would like to know more about tuning though.*



FLYONWALL9 said:


> Cool to see your enthusiasm.
> 
> When I tuned the systems that I did with enclosures like yours I would cross over higher than the sub in the back. I could chop the sub in the back at lets say 50hz where the front woofer would pick up. I then would gain down the front sub. This should blend in nicely with the front midbass drivers. I never really liked the sound of trying to get the front subwoofer to play that low. You get a nice impact from the front woofer. The rear should be gained such that it will appear to also be in the front of the car. If you have T/A this is much easier.
> 
> Are you not using a sub in the rear at all? If your not, you should try your ID or a single SoloBaric. I LOVED my Kicker when I had it. That little jewel would put out 132-34db with an Alpine 3548 in my CRX. Again, if your not looking to push monster db, just gain it down and cross it very low. This should also add a bit of depth to your stage. Like what Subwoofery said.


*Very interesting having a bigger woofer in the trunk at the same time, got to play with that some day. Yes I have T/A but I would need another amp and another way to cross over my P99 only comes with a 4 way, is it like splitting the subwoofer channel?*



bginvestor said:


> Cool.. so are you going to finish the box and keep in the car for awhile?



*YES!!! it's a keeper! will carpet in black and protect the woofer (soon).*

(O:


----------



## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


> *Exactly that's what I'm going to do by placing my mids in the A-Frame!
> Thanks for all the information, got to do some reading.
> I would like to know more about tuning though.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Very interesting having a bigger woofer in the trunk at the same time, got to play with that some day. Yes I have T/A but I would need another amp and another way to cross over my P99 only comes with a 4 way, is it like splitting the subwoofer channel?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *YES!!! it's a keeper! will carpet in black and protect the woofer (soon).*
> 
> (O:


Easiest way to achive that would be to use a Y-splitter RCA and buy a Zapco DC500.1 in order to have T/A just for your rear mounted sub and phase-match it to the front mounted one. 

Kelvin


----------



## derickveliz

subwoofery said:


> Easiest way to achive that would be to use a Y-splitter RCA and buy a Zapco DC500.1 in order to have T/A just for your rear mounted sub and phase-match it to the front mounted one.
> 
> Kelvin


*Interesting, now I get that feeling again that this hobby never ends! *

Got to save some more $$$

Thanks for the info.

(O:


----------



## bginvestor

subwoofery said:


> Easiest way to achive that would be to use a Y-splitter RCA and buy a Zapco DC500.1 in order to have T/A just for your rear mounted sub and phase-match it to the front mounted one.
> 
> Kelvin


Subwoofery,

Do you use group delay to phase match your drivers? If no, curious what technqiue you use..


----------



## bginvestor

subwoofery said:


> Easiest way to achive that would be to use a Y-splitter RCA and buy a Zapco DC500.1 in order to have T/A just for your rear mounted sub and phase-match it to the front mounted one.
> 
> Kelvin


5 way system... hmmmmmm.. :faint:


----------



## subwoofery

bginvestor said:


> 5 way system... hmmmmmm.. :faint:


Matching the phase between the front mounted sub and the rear mounted one isn't that difficult. Phase is easy to hear down low... 
I think of it more than a 3.2-way system 

Kelvin


----------



## subwoofery

bginvestor said:


> Subwoofery,
> 
> Do you use group delay to phase match your drivers? If no, curious what technqiue you use..


I don't really care about group delay when tuning. I do care about group delay in the planning stage though... I like my Q to be around 0.5 or even lower 

Kelvin


----------



## bginvestor

Your hybrid audio 6.5" woofer can get pretty loud.. Check this out!


----------



## bginvestor

subwoofery said:


> Matching the phase between the front mounted sub and the rear mounted one isn't that difficult. Phase is easy to hear down low...
> I think of it more than a 3.2-way system
> 
> Kelvin


Kelvin, so do you phase match by ear or get nerdy and take measurements?


----------



## subwoofery

bginvestor said:


> Kelvin, so do you phase match by ear or get nerdy and take measurements?


I do it by ear. Been playing with T/A for a while and now can hear changes quite easily. 
I always make sure my mids are in phase then I use polarity to bring my sub in phase. Last I use T/A to fine tune for a perfect phase between my mids and subs (while playing dynamic music like Michael Jackson). Sometimes I cut around 45Hz in order to minimize vibrations (shallow Q), peaks and to smooth out the freq response down low... 

Kelvin


----------



## derickveliz

*Ok, I took the I6SW out of it's enclosure*, then with some Morton Ice Melt I started *checking internal volume,* and I end up with a 9.3 liter enclosure, HAT recommends 9.9 litters that means I'm short for over 1/2 a liter (2 cups).

That puts me at 94% of the recommended internal volume, should I add a little hump! to compensate and accomplish 9.9 liters? maybe I should?


----------



## FLYONWALL9

Derick,

You don't know how long I have been trying to come up with something to 
measure volume that was small and easy to recover. This post has helped 
me greatly! 

Now to help you a bit (I hope). Have you done a plot or figured on using any
polyfill to perhaps make up the needed airspace? Also, are your figures based
on an empty enclosure or loaded? Did you account for the displacement of the
speaker?

Cheers,
Scott


----------



## derickveliz

FLYONWALL9 said:


> Derick,
> 
> You don't know how long I have been trying to come up with something to
> measure volume that was small and easy to recover. This post has helped
> me greatly!
> 
> Now to help you a bit (I hope). Have you done a plot or figured on using any
> polyfill to perhaps make up the needed airspace? Also, are your figures based
> on an empty enclosure or loaded? Did you account for the displacement of the
> speaker?
> 
> Cheers,
> Scott


*You are welcome*, I spent a good time thinking what could I use that I could use later.

And *Thank you!*

I forgot about *little details:*

I could try using polyfill first and .... I think I'm a little sleepy... it's true my numbers are with an empty enclosure, and not even think about the displacement of the woofer. Mmm Probably I'm pretty dam close, I'll try with some Polyfill first.

*Thanks a lot.*


----------



## derickveliz

bginvestor said:


> Your hybrid audio 6.5" woofer can get pretty loud.. Check this out!



I guess so, my enclosure it's a little different, probably not as loud but more towards SQ, but Yes I've seen this video before even I got my I6SW.


----------



## derickveliz

*Yesterday I had the chance to have my first passenger* to test the space, I just covered the enclosure with a black cloth, and didn't even say any thing to my guest:

1.- He didn't bother or noticed the enclosure, he was comfortable as far I could tell, he is about 5'-10".

2.- When I turn the music on, (*very low volume,* this was a business trip, not a show off) I could tell on his eyes rolling that some thing special was going on, I had some Jazz music, he kind of pause at some points to listen/feel the music.

*Payless!*


----------



## bginvestor

derickveliz said:


> *Yesterday I had the chance to have my first passenger* to test the space, I just covered the enclosure with a black cloth, and didn't even say any thing to my guest:
> 
> 1.- He didn't bother or noticed the enclosure, he was comfortable as far I could tell, he is about 5'-10".
> 
> 2.- When I turn the music on, (*very low volume,* this was a business trip, not a show off) I could tell on his eyes rolling that some thing special was going on, I had some Jazz music, he kind of pause at some points to listen/feel the music.
> 
> *Payless!*


Priceless?! :thumbsup:


----------



## bginvestor

derickveliz said:


> I guess so, my enclosure it's a little different, probably not as loud but more towards SQ, but Yes I've seen this video before even I got my I6SW.


Hey man,

The point of posting up the video is to show you that you have an awesome sub!


----------



## bginvestor

derickveliz said:


> *Ok, I took the I6SW out of it's enclosure*, then with some Morton Ice Melt I started *checking internal volume,* and I end up with a 9.3 liter enclosure, HAT recommends 9.9 litters that means I'm short for over 1/2 a liter (2 cups).
> 
> That puts me at 94% of the recommended internal volume, should I add a little hump! to compensate and accomplish 9.9 liters? maybe I should?


I suggest YOU model up the the enclosure so you can easily determine the change in the port frequency and overall response. 

PM me for help.


----------



## derickveliz

bginvestor said:


> Priceless?! :thumbsup:


I guess I really was a little *sleepy* last night! 

.


----------



## derickveliz

bginvestor said:


> Hey man,
> 
> The point of posting up the video is to show you that you have an awesome sub!


*Yes! Yes! Yes!* I'm sorry if I didn't sound like that. It is a great sub, Thank you!

(o:


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

bginvestor said:


> Your hybrid audio 6.5" woofer can get pretty loud.. Check this out!


ok, wtf? really? I may have to take this speaker more seriously now.


----------



## derickveliz

bginvestor said:


> I suggest YOU model up the the enclosure so you can easily determine the change in the port frequency and overall response.
> 
> PM me for help.


Thank you, I will :2thumbsup:


----------



## derickveliz

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> ok, wtf? really? I may have to take this speaker more seriously now.


After another 200 miles with the* I6SW,* I was thinking...* "Do I miss my IDQ12?"

Not really! *

*IDQ12* was nice to show off, with* loud bass in the trunk,* but on long trips was kind of overwhelming, my seat used to vibrate and that kind of bother me.


*I6SW is not Loud*, but it does what I want, like & feel the *bass in my chest*. every day get's better and better.


----------



## FLYONWALL9

bginvestor 
IS THE MAN! He helped me greatly with modeling my 8's in the doors and subs. No doubt I have more confidence that it will sound great after his help. I knew I could make it sound good but feel with his tutelage it will be at the next level.

I still think it would be worth throwing in a test box with that 12 or even an IB sub crossed as low as you can get it, if even by the amps sub sonic filter. Then chop off the top at say 50-60hz. Just feed it about 100-200w or whatever amp you happen to have on hand. Use some Y connectors as suggested. I wouldn't spend too much money or time, just throw it in and see how it goes. I think you will be pleasantly surprised, if you can cross it low enough and have it just round out the bottom end. Take some of the stress and direction off your little front sub. I honestly don't think you will go back.

I would however, like to hear your response to the test. This should let us know if the sub in the front can really play LOW at very little volume. Also, with it crossed very low like that you shouldn't get very much directional "feel" from it. Heck, even if you have a powered home sub and can run an extension power cable to the back of the car, and Y adapt those RCA's it should give you a good enough idea weather or not to proceed with another small project.

YOURS is a true DIY project with LOTS of learning in the process that I very much enjoy following from this end....

all the best,
Scott


----------



## derickveliz

FLYONWALL9 said:


> bginvestor
> IS THE MAN! He helped me greatly with modeling my 8's in the doors and subs. No doubt I have more confidence that it will sound great after his help. I knew I could make it sound good but feel with his tutelage it will be at the next level.
> 
> I still think it would be worth throwing in a test box with that 12 or even an IB sub crossed as low as you can get it, if even by the amps sub sonic filter. Then chop off the top at say 50-60hz. Just feed it about 100-200w or whatever amp you happen to have on hand. Use some Y connectors as suggested. I wouldn't spend too much money or time, just throw it in and see how it goes. I think you will be pleasantly surprised, if you can cross it low enough and have it just round out the bottom end. Take some of the stress and direction off your little front sub. I honestly don't think you will go back.
> 
> I would however, like to hear your response to the test. *This should let us know if the sub in the front can really play LOW at very little volume.* Also, with it crossed very low like that you shouldn't get very much directional "feel" from it. Heck, even if you have a powered home sub and can run an extension power cable to the back of the car, and Y adapt those RCA's it should give you a good enough idea weather or not to proceed with another small project.
> 
> YOURS is a true DIY project with LOTS of learning in the process that I very much enjoy following from this end....
> 
> all the best,
> Scott


*Thanks Scott,

I will play with a bigger sub like you suggested,* I'm curious about your sentence: _"This should let us know if the sub in the front can really play LOW at very little volume"_ what does it means? I mean what are we trying to find out? I may be wrong with the concept and what* I can tell from my little experience with the I6SW is that loves to play LOW from little to MODERATE volume, when I crank it all the way UP makes me adjust the gain knob a little bit.*

Going forward I have to build the* subfloor* for the amps, so I could sit an adult(s) in the back seat, move the* MIDs to the kick area*, and replace my 6.5" speakers with the new *HAT L6's.*

I know it's a* learning process*, that I'm enjoying every second, even if it takes me many hours to accomplish,* I hope it never ends!*

(o:


----------



## derickveliz

*Well moving forward over here.*.. making some space with rudimentary tools for the MIDs in the A-frame, trying to sink the driver as much as possible to improve the width of my stage, (tomorrow I'll try with a dremel)...






















It's getting chilly around here...











.


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## derickveliz

*3 days with out electricity!*

Only updates I have: tuning and more tuning *Pink Noise is great!*

*Got hit with the snow storm*, no power, no heat, no water, no nothing...
a tree in our drive way and almost 14 inches of snow...
Grounded for now at my fathers place.




























Take notice... Yaris in the Garage... 

D.


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## n_olympios

Ha you're spoiling it!


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## derickveliz

*Ok, we are back!, and...*

I just had some fun with my dremel, sparks and every thing else! in the A-frame!!!
I made enough space to get the HL-70 (MIDs) in there, thinking that some day I'll put a L3SE.


Here is the A-Frame Pilot's side remaining parts over the template I made, this is to build the baffle:











After cutting the metal, I have enough space for my speaker:
























The A-frame with the HL-70 all the way in:













The A-frame with the HL-70 with template:












I really don't know how I'm going to manage all the wires, I assume it's "ok" to leave them next to the speaker, because what I really want is the Off-Axis response...

D.


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## derickveliz

OK.... here is some thing* I discovered and help me to learn about music in a car...*

*I hope this helps others to understand why we struggle to get a center image* and what exactly does it means...

Why so much tuning and changing our systems to get the most of them... so to me was *hard because I have nobody local to show me what a SQ sound system is all about:* I called 3Dimentional music where you can* localize the singer for example*, and of course it should be in the center (of the stage) of your car above your instrument panel (for Yaris) and the farther away from the listener the better, but...

*What I was trying to accomplish when playing with Time Alignment? *I wasn't sure of what to look for so I did this:

With a home system with 2 speakers (see picture #1 below), *play a few songs *(some tracks are better than others to show you this wonderful example), *get between the speakers* right in the center, very close (see picture #2 below) *and listen.... sudenly you will feel the singer in the middle in my scenario right above my head, like magic,* (Picture #3) like if I had a 3rd speaker for center channel specifically for the singer, in some other tracks it was a drum or other instrument, *give it a try and see if you can listen to the 3Dimentional aspect of the music..*.

*Then try to do it in your car..*. things get more complicated *been on the left side* (pilot's side), in a very small area, with glass around you, it's like the worst scenario and without Time Alignment it probably won't happen. 

Picture # 1









Picture #2









Picture #3









D.


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## Winno

Hey, I have the same little JVC stereo.
Well, I have the speakers at least (the cd player/amp section karked it in the end) and ran them off a small valve amp for a while.
Quiet competent little speakers and they're responsible for me being very interested in wide band drivers at home and in the car (I am awaiting a set of Audible Physics XR3M drivers for full range/wide band duties).


----------



## derickveliz

Winno said:


> Hey, I have the same little JVC stereo.
> Well, I have the speakers at least (the cd player/amp section karked it in the end) and ran them off a small valve amp for a while.
> Quiet competent little speakers and they're responsible for me being very interested in wide band drivers at home and in the car (I am awaiting a set of Audible Physics XR3M drivers for full range/wide band duties).


Yes, very good speakers!


----------



## derickveliz

*Couple of thoughts about my I6SW and IDQ12...*

For 2 days I went back to the *IDQ12 in the trunk,* to compare with the new *I6SW...*
Yes it's a little louder, specially to the outside world, the gain from been in the trunk is noticeable, but *my seat vibrates, and after a while kind of bothers my hears*, this is where too much bass is not all ways a good thing, at least to me, where my goal is pure sound and the *WOW! factor with out been LOUD. *

*Long story-short...* I'm very pleased with the I6SW up front, the *SQ level I get it's wonderful, having the bass hit my chest it's awesome.*

D.


----------



## richiec77

Awesome thread! And the whole "payless" is priceless in it'self. 

Thanks for the new tip about how to measure internal volume using uria. I never thought about trying that. 

Scott's been giving you alot of good pointers. 1 thing that was lost in translation was he was saying to run the port from the front part of the box thru the back of the center console to the drivers side. A Port does not have to be fully installed into the box. A large part can hang out. The internal flare does need to be inside the box though. Just FYI if you decide to try and tackle it again. Here's an example of what I mean from another thread:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1469688-post16.html

Also, what he meant about putting the 12" back in is to set it up to play the lowest end of the frequency spectrum. aka from 20Hz to around 35/40Hz. The front sub to play from about 35/40Hz and up. Basically using both. This is a VERY VERY similar type of set-up to what Gary Biggs did with his masterful SQ vehicle and I did something similar when my car was both an SPL/SQ car. (SQ car with a Wall added later) He had like 2 15" subs playing only from about 20-35Hz and then the 10" sub played on up. The 10" subwoofer was installed behind the glove box. FULL custom and dedicated Car Audio vehicle but this gives and idea of what worked in the past. The front stage was just a tweeter and either 4" or 5 1/4"

For me I had 8" subs in the door and would cross-over and play the 3 15" subs very low for sounds like pipe organs and large timpani drums. Those types of instruments produce VERY low frequency sounds that are difficult to represent right without low-end extension. You're 6 1/2 will never be able to produce those sounds SAFELY due to the tuning frequency of the port. 

Here's a decent link. 

Biggs' Buick Regal - Competition Cars - Car Audio and Electronics

Timpani drums, Gongs, Pipe Organs. Thing of concerto's like Requiem Dies Irae, La Donna E Mobile, O Fortuna (Especially this one! Exceptionally Dynamic drums) . They have a LARGE kick and Low reverberation. Just because an instruments PRIMARY output plays at a specific range doesn't mean that the decaying octaves both Above and Below don't have an effect on sound. Those effects sometimes are what truely makes something sound like it does. 

Now how to accomplish that with your set-up....a little tricky. The only way would be to amplify the 12" for sure and use the amps internal Crossover or the cross-over from the output of another amplifier. Or add an external cross-over since the Head Unit is out of options there. I'd have to re-read to see what you are using for amps to see if this is possible with what you already have. 

Basically you're just adding the 12" back in for low end extension. That 6 1/2" is impressive, but can not physically reproduce the lowest end. Plus you basically need to run a sub-sonic filter at the resonate frequency the box is tuned for: aka Super sharp HPF setting at 38-40Hz. This is because there is no dampening at all being provided for the subwoofer below it's tuned frequency and the driver is acting like it's in free air. It's like driving on broken-worn out springs.


----------



## derickveliz

*CAPS ARE MINE...*



richiec77 said:


> Awesome thread! And the whole "payless" is priceless in it'self. *THANK YOU!*
> 
> Thanks for the new tip about how to measure internal volume using uria. I never thought about trying that. * IT WORKS*
> 
> Scott's been giving you alot of good pointers. 1 thing that was lost in translation was he was saying to run the port from the front part of the box thru the back of the center console to the drivers side.
> *NO I DID UNDERSTAND THAT, AND GAVE IT A THOUGH, JUST DIDN'T GO IN THAT DIRECTION TO KEEP THE BOX AS A ONE SOLID ROCK THAT I CAN TAKE OUT IN SECONDS. I DO THINK THIS IS THE WAY TO GO IF I GO WITH 2 LITTLE WOOFERS.*
> 
> Also, what he meant about putting the 12" back in
> 
> *YES I UNDERSTAND AND THAT IS IN MY TO DO LIST FOR MEDIUM TERM NOW, I JUST WANTED TO GET THE FEELING OF WHAT I HAD BEFORE AND WHAT I HAVE ACCOMPLISHED WITH THE 6.5 WOOFER IN FRONT. I WILL TRY WITH ANOTHER AMP AND EXPERIMENT WITH BOTH WOOFERS AT THE SAME TIME.*
> 
> 
> Timpani drums, Gongs, Pipe Organs. Thing of concerto's like Requiem Dies Irae, La Donna E Mobile, O Fortuna (Especially this one! Exceptionally Dynamic drums) . They have a LARGE kick and Low reverberation. Just because an instruments PRIMARY output plays at a specific range doesn't mean that the decaying octaves both Above and Below don't have an effect on sound. Those effects sometimes are what truely makes something sound like it does. *I AGREE, AND I WILL PLAY WITH TRACKS THAT PLAY THAT LOW AND REPORT LATER.*
> 
> Now how to accomplish that with your set-up....a little tricky. The only way would be to amplify the 12" for sure and use the amps internal Crossover or the cross-over from the output of another amplifier. Or add an external cross-over since the Head Unit is out of options there. I'd have to re-read to see what you are using for amps to see if this is possible with what you already have.
> 
> Basically you're just adding the 12" back in for low end extension. That 6 1/2" is impressive, but can not physically reproduce the lowest end.
> *I'M NOT AN EXPERT HERE, BUT THE LITTLE WOOFER DOES SOME AMAZING THINGS, JUT DON'T CRANK THE VOLUME UP! YES I UNDERSTAND THE LIMITATIONS OF A SMALL DIAMETER WOOFER, WILL PLAY MORE WITH THIS IN THE FUTURE FOR SURE.*


D.


----------



## richiec77

OK. Sorry. I misread read your thoughts on the subs construction. That makes total sense now since you need to be able to remove it. Might be a cool future idea to research something that would be a quick disconnect for a port installed like that. 

Gotcha on the sub part. Were tracking. I understand what you mean about a little sub working well. I've had 5" woofers up front and it really made a difference in solidifying the sound stage forward for mid-bass/bass information. 

Thinking more...I like Scott's idea of an infinite baffle set-up. Since you're going to be trying to get low end with a 12" it needs a large box to get that low end Q extension. Something like .505-.600 when plugging that in for box modeling. I'm not sure what size box an ID sub needs to get very low though. Maybe even upgrade to a 15" or 18" here if you get to experience the sound right since they'll make better use of the IB size of a typical trunk and the larger Subs that sound a little Meh around 50-80Hz can REALLY shine at their brightest used very low since they can move the air needed to recreate the sound. 

You know: I think you'd gain a TON of knowledge by going to a live orchestrated concert. There you'll experience all the instruments you are trying to recreate in person and get a REALLY perfect idea of what the tones, sound, reverb, extension and the likes sound like. Plus when you see things like large Gongs (30"-60" diameter instrument) Timpani drums (About 3-5ft tall, about 26-40" in diameter) you'll really see the dots connect. Might be a great night out with the misses. 

Dude. I'm really enjoying your enthusiasm. It's rubbing off on me and I'm in the process of re-doing my system.


----------



## derickveliz

richiec77 said:


> You know: I think you'd gain a TON of knowledge by going to a live orchestrated concert. There you'll experience all the instruments you are trying to recreate in person and get a REALLY perfect idea of what the tones, sound, reverb, extension and the likes sound like. Plus when you see things like large Gongs (30"-60" diameter instrument) Timpani drums (About 3-5ft tall, about 26-40" in diameter) you'll really see the dots connect. Might be a great night out with the misses.
> 
> Dude. I'm really enjoying your enthusiasm. It's rubbing off on me and I'm in the process of re-doing my system.


*Yes, thank you!,*

I know the real thing is what we are after... and I will make an effort to get out and enjoy a show, but speaking of live concerts...
I had in my car a person who *goes to live concerts every 2 weeks,* these are traditional *Marimba* concerts, so she gave me a CD to try it out...

With the *IDQ12 in the trunk*, she said *"Sounds really good, crisp, sharp and clear"* then...

I unplugged the 12" woofer and *connected the 6.5 woofer up front... * and played the CD again, asking her... if she could tell the difference:
*"WOW!" she yield, *_"now sounds like the real thing!...all coming from the front,_* like if I was at the concert right in front of the band" * she said.

*["Now this doesn't discards the fact that in the near future I will try an extra amp with a large woofer in the trunk, I do like the idea of having both playing at the same time."]*

*Made my day... *so I went back to the drawing board and build baffles for the MIDs to test them in the a-frame (kick area)... Impressions later on! *good news for my 3-way system...*



.


----------



## bginvestor

derickveliz said:


> *Yes, thank you!,*
> 
> I know the real thing is what we are after... and I will make an effort to get out and enjoy a show, but speaking of live concerts...
> I had in my car a person who *goes to live concerts every 2 weeks,* these are traditional *Marimba* concerts, so she gave me a CD to try it out...
> 
> With the *IDQ12 in the trunk*, she said *"Sounds really good, crisp, sharp and clear"* then...
> 
> I unplugged the 12" woofer and *connected the 6.5 woofer up front... * and played the CD again, asking her... if she could tell the difference:
> *"WOW!" she yield, *_"now sounds like the real thing!...all coming from the front,_* like if I was at the concert right in front of the band" * she said.
> 
> *["Now this doesn't discards the fact that in the near future I will try an extra amp with a large woofer in the trunk, I do like the idea of having both playing at the same time."]*
> 
> *Made my day... *so I went back to the drawing board and build baffles for the MIDs to test them in the a-frame (kick area)... Impressions later on! *good news for my 3-way system...*
> 
> 
> 
> .


Don't forget that you can time align the woofers in the back to sound like they are coming from the front..


----------



## HondAudio

How about a pair of 18" subs, mounted opposite of each other in a push-pull isobaric configuration, with an enclosure shaped like a drum? 

Low-pass it at about, oh... say... 40 Hz, and play nothing in your car but the opening sequence of _Also sprach Zarathustra_


----------



## derickveliz

bginvestor said:


> Don't forget that you can time align the woofers in the back to sound like they are coming from the front..


I use T/A for the little sub up front that is a little offset to the right and I can make it feel it's coming from the center of the dashboard, also use T/A for the IDQ12 in the trunk, but just doesn't happen...

.


----------



## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> How about a pair of 18" subs, mounted opposite of each other in a push-pull isobaric configuration, with an enclosure shaped like a drum?
> 
> Low-pass it at about, oh... say... 40 Hz, and play nothing in your car but the opening sequence of _Also sprach Zarathustra_


That may work, but will have problems to fit it in the small Yaris's trunk.
I like the IB idea with the IDQ12, but for testing I will use it in it's 1 cuft sealed box. Maybe I should get a bigger vented box as well, but still like the IB idea better.


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## bertholomey

I got to demo my friend's car that has a shallow 10 in the pass floor board and 12's in the trunk, and I was extremely impressed. He has everything running off of an MS8 right now, so it is doing some funky things to the set up - he will get a different processor soon that he will have more flexibility. I really liked the extra impact - on percussion and on bass guitar that the sub up front provided. His subs in the rear are tuned to the point that the sound is coming from the front of the car - they really could only be perceived when you turn your head to face the center of the car. I'm sure yours sounds very similar, and you will likely have the same huge grin on your face that he has on his every time he listens to his car.


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## derickveliz

bertholomey said:


> I got to demo my friend's car that has a shallow 10 in the pass floor board and 12's in the trunk, and I was extremely impressed. He has everything running off of an MS8 right now, so it is doing some funky things to the set up - he will get a different processor soon that he will have more flexibility. I really liked the extra impact - on percussion and on bass guitar that the sub up front provided. His subs in the rear are tuned to the point that the sound is coming from the front of the car - they really could only be perceived when you turn your head to face the center of the car. I'm sure yours sounds very similar, and you will likely have the same huge grin on your face that he has on his every time he listens to his car.


Thanks,

I honestly feel that as it is now for SQ is quiet impressive at low to moderate volume, (even though my wife claims I listen to my music way too loud), the overall system has a *BOLD* feeling and on the other hand I can turn my head in any direction that the bass will still come from the front, it's very natural, blends so well with my Lows (mid/bass) I wish you guys could hear it, will wait for the next New England meet, and if I get a chance to sneak in a SQ competition I will sing up for sure.

.


----------



## HondAudio

derickveliz said:


> That may work, but will have problems to fit it in the small Yaris's trunk.
> I like the IB idea with the IDQ12, but for testing I will use it in it's 1 cuft sealed box. Maybe I should get a bigger vented box as well, but still like the IB idea better.


I didn't say it would fit in _your_ trunk


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## derickveliz

*I had to do the inspection sticker...* 
I heard one of the guys...* "it won't pass... tinted windows, too low"*... and some thing else?

VIDEO LINK

...


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## derickveliz

*I got a little over 2,000 miles testing the MIDs in the kick area...*

1.- *AWESOME* much better than the MIDs on the a-pillars (will expand on this later)
2.- The image is rock solid in the center and above the dashboard
3.- Stage is high 4-6 inches above HU and pushed forward about 6-8 inches
4.- Stage is wide, love it!

It's time to start playing with* 15 degrees *up and towards listener.

Even though I spent so much *time and effort* doing the mids in the a-pillars the experience it's *worth what I learn here.*

*I never even imagine that the MIDS down there in the Kick area would make my system so much better; I guess PLDs are some thing SQ enthusiasts need to put more attention and make it part of the equation for a great system.*

D.


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## Mic10is

aim toward back on the radio. make underdash panels as well covered in some foam and carpet or grill cloth.


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## derickveliz

Mic10is said:


> aim toward back on the radio. make underdash panels as well covered in some foam and carpet or grill cloth.


Will do!

Yes I though about the under-dash acoustical panels.

Thank you!


----------



## GavGT

I admire the way you are willing to go to the ends of the earth to try something, even when it doesn't work out how you want. I myself struggle with the "what if"'s, but luckily haven't had time to waste just lately. PLD is something i'm well aware of, especially as i'm 2 way, and competing next year. I'm planning on pushing the closest edges of the midbass well into the kick area by doing some cutting of the frame, and welding in metal baffles. Then making an mdf and fibreglass panel that will bolt into the metal. Hopefully this will give me great stage width as the drivers will be a good 8" further apart than the usuall intrusive kick build, and wider even than door mounting. 

Looking forward to more of your exploits!

Gav


----------



## derickveliz

GavGT said:


> I admire the way you are willing to go to the ends of the earth to try something, even when it doesn't work out how you want. I myself struggle with the "what if"'s, but luckily haven't had time to waste just lately. PLD is something i'm well aware of, especially as i'm 2 way, and competing next year. I'm planning on pushing the closest edges of the midbass well into the kick area by doing some cutting of the frame, and welding in metal baffles. Then making an mdf and fibreglass panel that will bolt into the metal. Hopefully this will give me great stage width as the drivers will be a good 8" further apart than the usuall intrusive kick build, and wider even than door mounting.
> 
> Looking forward to more of your exploits!
> 
> Gav



Thanks, it's has been a long way, a learning experience with a very happy ending (Oops It's not over yet) but yes indeed lots of work that goes away in the name of knowledge.

I'm sure you'll do great with your system, please let us know how it goes.

(O:


----------



## derickveliz

derickveliz said:


> *I got a little over 2,000 miles testing the MIDs in the kick area...*
> 
> 1.- *AWESOME* much better than the MIDs on the a-pillars *(will expand on this later)*
> D.





derickveliz said:


> "Symmetric Dashboard"
> 
> That is the *only reason* why I'm trying my *MIDS *on the a-pillars and *take advantage of the cavernous dash/windshield* of the Yaris's *symmetrical dashboard*, other wise the *MIDS would go down in the kick area for my SQ install.
> 
> If I had to start all over, I would go with a 4" MID in the kick panels with a tweeter on the a-pillars for SQ install.
> 
> *


*NO MORE MIDs IN THE A-PILLARS:*

OK, so after many hours of testing *I can't show-off my MIDS in the a-pillars any more,* in the name of SQ and trying to* improve my audio system* 

*"my MIDs are now in the a-frame, down in the kick area..." why? *

*PLDs is the answer, *now my stage is wider, deeper and as high as with the MIDs in a-pillars, my image is solid, every thing is way much better, T/A was much easier to nail in too. At least in my Yaris works that way because the distance between my my ears to the apillars is shorter than the distance between my ears to the a-frame (kick area). see image below...

I know, it's hard to believe. Before I swear for the MIDs in the a-pillars, and I just didn't believe the MIDs would play so good in the kick area. Some one told me, some one else suggested mi the MIDs in the a-frame and I didn't listen, now I know by trail and error what sounds better for me in the name of SQ.


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## tilsim

awesome job.. i have a two way front stage component and i've been seeking for an idea on how to make these, and now i will surely make these for my car


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## teenkertoy

I find it most interesting that your personal journey (through lots of trial and error) has evolved into a 3-way system with most of your speakers in kicks or low in the doors, which is similar to many competition setups I have seen. That's not to say you've discovered everything there is about competition or high SQ in general, but I like that your path is similar to many of those who have come before you (but with a supreme focus on installation and tuning rather than replacing gear hoping the new stuff will sound "better").

-J


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## GavGT

Glad to hear the kick mounted mids sound better. Are they just in for testing or have you completed the kick panel builds? Would love to see some pics

Gav


----------



## derickveliz

tilsim said:


> awesome job.. i have a two way front stage component and i've been seeking for an idea on how to make these, and now i will surely make these for my car


Thanks, I'm glad it helps.





teenkertoy said:


> I find it most interesting that your personal journey (through lots of trial and error) has evolved into a 3-way system with most of your speakers in kicks or low in the doors, which is similar to many competition setups I have seen. That's not to say you've discovered everything there is about competition or high SQ in general, but I like that your path is similar to many of those who have come before you (but with a supreme focus on installation and tuning rather than replacing gear hoping the new stuff will sound "better").-J


Thank you, I like to experiment and try it my self, and not just do what others do just because, I feel my learning experience helps me understand how it works.

I know what you mean about thinking to replace speakers hoping that will sound better, it's not just about a good/expensive speaker, but what's going on and how every thing works together. I do believe that good gear helps, and I remind to my self: "buy cheap, buy twice"

Thanks again!






GavGT said:


> Glad to hear the kick mounted mids sound better. Are they just in for testing or have you completed the kick panel builds? Would love to see some pics
> Gav


Yes, the MIDs in the A-frame made a huge difference, not to say that the MIDs in the a-pillars sound bad, they do perform very well, but in terms of depth, width and Image (what I call 3D scenario) the MIDs in the kick area work better for me.

No finished pictures yet, I'm learning to "not to make assumptions of final installations" until I try some thing else! jeje, 
For now I just made simple 1/2" plywood baffles to hold the speakers in place. I will post pictures for sure!




.


----------



## derickveliz

*Ok, some crazy thoughs here...*

So after a few Kmiles I started to change the angle of the MIDs a little bit (in the kick area)
Long story short: I'm only aiming the Pilot's driver about 15 degrees up and towards listener... why?

*If speakers perform different on-off axis, why have one of each, instead try to have both at the same angle towards listener! that way the speaker's performance will be the same.*

In other words if I look at each driver from Pilot's seat what I see it's a mirror image of each speaker, same angles (yes one is further away).

*Please tell me I'm wrong,* but my ears feel like in heaven, I'll test for another Kmiles and feed back with my thoughts...



.


----------



## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


> *Ok, some crazy thoughs here...*
> 
> So after a few Kmiles I started to change the angle of the MIDs a little bit (in the kick area)
> Long story short: *I'm only aiming the Pilot's driver about 15 degrees up and towards listener... *why?
> 
> *If speakers perform different on-off axis, why have one of each, instead try to have both at the same angle towards listener! that way the speaker's performance will be the same.*
> 
> *In other words if I look at each driver from Pilot's seat what I see it's a mirror image of each speaker, same angles (yes one is further away)*.
> 
> *Please tell me I'm wrong,* but my ears feel like in heaven, I'll test for another Kmiles and feed back with my thoughts...
> 
> 
> 
> .


Can you post pics coz I have a hard time picturing this in my head 

Kelvin


----------



## GavGT

derickveliz said:


> *Ok, some crazy thoughs here...*
> 
> So after a few Kmiles I started to change the angle of the MIDs a little bit (in the kick area)
> Long story short: I'm only aiming the Pilot's driver about 15 degrees up and towards listener... why?
> 
> *If speakers perform different on-off axis, why have one of each, instead try to have both at the same angle towards listener! that way the speaker's performance will be the same.*
> 
> In other words if I look at each driver from Pilot's seat what I see it's a mirror image of each speaker, same angles (yes one is further away).
> 
> *Please tell me I'm wrong,* but my ears feel like in heaven, I'll test for another Kmiles and feed back with my thoughts...
> 
> 
> 
> .


I can imagine why that would sound good, the frequency response of the two drivers should be very similar if they are around the same degree of axis to the listener. The only thing i can imagine is the response off reflective surfaces may be different due to one side firing more directly towards the centre console. If you can get over the lack of symmetry then it could work great and cut down on the amount of independant L/R eq needed. 

In fact that's probably one thing i'm going to struggle with. I'm upgrading to Morel Hybrid ovation, and want to get them on axis if possible, but i don't like the look of differently aimed tweeters and mids. With the Accelorator peddle being right up against the kick panel over here, it makes it very difficult to get any degree of axis to the drivers mid.

Anyway, stil reading with interest and looking forward to updates.

Gav


----------



## derickveliz

subwoofery said:


> Can you post pics coz I have a hard time picturing this in my head
> 
> Kelvin



Lets try this:











.


----------



## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


> Lets try this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


In theory, that's what I would do. Now having one driver firing into the center console (passenger's side) and one firing towards the listening room, reflections will create phase problems that will happen at different freqs in the L channel and in the R channel. 
For eg., the passenger's side firing straight will have a null around 500Hz and a peak around 1kHz whereas the driver's side might only have a null around 800Hz which creates a peak around 1.6kHz... 

While angling the drivers, I would make sure there's no obstruction in the direct path of the piston (on axis) - meaning both drivers firing over the center console. 
Now your theory can also work great. You'll have to experiment I guess 

Kelvin


----------



## derickveliz

I've been trying to work on the L6s in the doors, so far I made a baffle for the pilot's side (see photos below) ugly and painful, I'm going to make a plan (drawings) and ask a local friend to cut the other side for me. The good thing is that you don't see this, any way shame on me, but it works and that is what counts.

On the other side, we (as family) have been sick and barely had time to work, I did take some pics of the kick's with the MIDs but still in my camera, will upload later on.




















D.


----------



## derickveliz

Mids in the kick area: (naked)





















D.


----------



## derickveliz

Water protection for L6s


----------



## derickveliz

L6s should breath...


----------



## derickveliz

Next there is some special deadening... what I mean is to reduce vibrations (rattles caused by the L6's as much as possible)


----------



## Winterboy04

I just read through all 21 pages of this thread...impressive work man! LOVE what you did with that HAT sub, i have a slew of their speakers in my truck and am looking into their new subs.


----------



## derickveliz

Winterboy04 said:


> I just read through all 21 pages of this thread...impressive work man! LOVE what you did with that HAT sub, i have a slew of their speakers in my truck and am looking into their new subs.


*Thanks,
I hope you can check out my system soon!*


----------



## derickveliz

Bye bye Zeus HF....






































.


----------



## DarkRyda

Really good job looks fantastic


----------



## jorgegarcia

> .


What are you going to do for a grill here?

I'm thinking about cutting the plastic grills in the door panel, but have no idea what to do about the gaping whole it'll leave behind.


----------



## Joehs

Beautiful install. Top notch work! Keep it coming!


----------



## bginvestor

derickveliz said:


> Water protection for L6s


Good job.

I am concerned about your water shield on the L6's. The back waves of the speaker are important in sound quality. This shield may have sensitivity on the back waves..

I am not saying this won't work, since I don't have data to prove it, but I highly recommend you send a pic to the vendor and ask his expert opinion. 

Good luck.


----------



## trojan fan

What do you plan on doing with the big hole you cut in the door card

Better yet ...why did you make that hole in the first place


----------



## derickveliz

jorgegarcia said:


> What are you going to do for a grill here?
> 
> I'm thinking about cutting the plastic grills in the door panel, but have no idea what to do about the gaping whole it'll leave behind.


*I'm going to do some kind of rings in the shape of the perforated area very thin, then cover them with black grill cloth, I will use 3/8 x 1/16" Neodymium Disc Magnets to hold them in place, like these:*














Joehs said:


> Beautiful install. Top notch work! Keep it coming!


*Thank you!*




bginvestor said:


> Good job.
> 
> I am concerned about your water shield on the L6's. The back waves of the speaker are important in sound quality. This shield may have sensitivity on the back waves..
> 
> I am not saying this won't work, since I don't have data to prove it, but I highly recommend you send a pic to the vendor and ask his expert opinion.
> 
> Good luck.


*I'm too, and I will try to find out more about it, my logic was that the L6s are IB and they get installed every where in small areas providing proper ventilation like in the a-frame and kick areas; my L6s will play from around 40-50 Hz up to around 200 Hz, I'll see what else I can find out, thanks!*





trojan fan said:


> What do you plan on doing with the big hole you cut in the door card
> 
> Better yet ...why did you make that hole in the first place


*To minimize rattles in the plastic door panels, to let all the energy these little gems generate!*


----------



## ecbmxer

I've wondered about the door grills causing any sound impedance too. But does it matter in a midbass application? (I'm asking) You always see people run hard grills over subs without issue, so up to 320-300Hz, I wonder if it matters? In my own install, I did notice a substantial difference in adding a nice gasket around the speaker, sealing the baffle to the door card. I think it helped eliminate sound waves going into the door card cavity (my doors are sealed as well)


----------



## n_olympios

Yes, it does matter. It's not only a matter of how much air can go through the grilles at a given time, or how much they resonate (along with the rest of the door panel). The worst part is - and this is mainly bad for mids and tweeters) that due to the thickness of the plastic, they work as a waveguide, a bad one at that.


----------



## Winterboy04

So i had the opportunity to check out this beast of a Yaris last Friday. Derick was kind enough to allow a complete stranger to screw around with his stereo! My intent was to hear the HAT 6.5" woofer in action (specifically in the front of the vehicle) because i have a Tacoma access cab and i will need the space where my sub is currently for a babyseat. I am no audiophile, only an aspiring car audio nut working my way up, so my explanations of what I heard could be a little “dull”, but to say the least, his car was game changing for me. 
Because he has a Yaris, he’s got a large dashboard due to the angle of the windshield, this seems to work perfectly because his imaging really puts the entire band or singer directly there in front of you. He went through the 7 drums exercise, and a couple other test tracks, but where the system seemed to shine was in the mid to mid-low sections of common songs. I was blown away by the highs, crystal clear, not bright, not piercing, just clean and vibrant. But those midranges, man were those nice. His door speakers are putting out frequencies that I have a hard time hearing from my 10” sub. At one point, he turned off the subwoofer to show the frequencies they were actually playing. That was when my car stereo plans changed. The amount of work he put into deadening and anti-rattle truly paid off, because I have never heard a car that had a range like that from the front. 
So thank you for getting to me before I blew money on a new subwoofer and amp. I know now that I need to spend some coin and time turning that truck cab into a silent chamber. 
And for anyone who is looking for impressions on that HAT subwoofer…holy crap. You would think that thing was a ten. So clean and so smooth. It still on my radar for future upgrades!
Thanks for the opportunity Derick!


----------



## derickveliz

Winterboy04 said:


> So i had the opportunity to check out this beast of a Yaris last Friday. Derick was kind enough to allow a complete stranger to screw around with his stereo! My intent was to hear the HAT 6.5" woofer in action (specifically in the front of the vehicle) because i have a Tacoma access cab and i will need the space where my sub is currently for a babyseat. I am no audiophile, only an aspiring car audio nut working my way up, so my explanations of what I heard could be a little “dull”, but to say the least, his car was game changing for me.
> Because he has a Yaris, he’s got a large dashboard due to the angle of the windshield, this seems to work perfectly because his imaging really puts the entire band or singer directly there in front of you. He went through the 7 drums exercise, and a couple other test tracks, but where the system seemed to shine was in the mid to mid-low sections of common songs. I was blown away by the highs, crystal clear, not bright, not piercing, just clean and vibrant. But those midranges, man were those nice. His door speakers are putting out frequencies that I have a hard time hearing from my 10” sub. At one point, he turned off the subwoofer to show the frequencies they were actually playing. That was when my car stereo plans changed. The amount of work he put into deadening and anti-rattle truly paid off, because I have never heard a car that had a range like that from the front.
> So thank you for getting to me before I blew money on a new subwoofer and amp. I know now that I need to spend some coin and time turning that truck cab into a silent chamber.
> And for anyone who is looking for impressions on that HAT subwoofer…holy crap. You would think that thing was a ten. So clean and so smooth. It still on my radar for future upgrades!
> Thanks for the opportunity Derick!





*Thanks Winterboy04, it was a pleasure to have you listen to my car. Your system is great and will get better for sure, wait until you start playing with Time Alignment, that's where the fun begins.

Let me know if you need any help with your install, I'll give you an extra hand.

Derick*


----------



## derickveliz

Happy New Year 2012 to every body!...


----------



## derickveliz

*Well we learn something every day, and I wanted to share with you:*

For me it's tuning time and I love it, what a nice experience going through all the variables and* learning what does what.* Last week my LOWS (HAT L6s in OEM location in doors running from 63Hz to 160Hz or so) got disconnected so I had the chance to *drive without LOWS.... for a while*

Just before that I wanted to* play a little with my Woofer settings because for some reason the lower frequencies stage was kind of leaning towards the right side of the car* (what I mean here is that the "BEAT" from drums for example couldn't feel it symmetrically speaking), in my mind I thought it was the Woofer enclosure that fires up front slightly on the right side of the car. But when I was without LOWS my* lower frequencies stage was perfect,* right from the center of the dashboard and not leaning towards the right side. So now I knew it wasn't the upfront woofer causing this, *the LOWS are the issue.*

After fixing the LOWs I looked for some pink noise, the lowest I had available that day was 200Hz and started playing with Time Alignment (T/A) this is how I can* control when the signal from each speaker gets to my ears, the idea is to delay left side and speed up the right side, and fool my brain like if I was exactly in the middle of the speakers.* By pure experimenting changing these parameters I was able to *move the stage from side to side*, I did isolate the LOWs, it's like magic. At the end of the day the BEAT (low frequencies) was *right in the center*, at the beginning I thought that the song had recorded towards the right side the drums, but it was constant in various songs, it wasn't the woofer, it was the LOWs, many* thanks to technology for providing us the tools.*


----------



## glidn

So are you still running the Hertz Mid and tweeters?
If so, are you running the 3" Mid from 160hz - 2500hz?
then the tweeters up from 2500hz?

btw, Been following your thread for sometime. I do like your install, oh and the constant change (well every few months anyway) of the system too.

ever evolving, keep it up. I'm sure you will end up with Audio serenity.


----------



## derickveliz

glidn said:


> So are you still running the Hertz Mid and tweeters?
> If so, are you running the 3" Mid from 160hz - 2500hz?
> then the tweeters up from 2500hz?
> 
> btw, Been following your thread for sometime. I do like your install, oh and the constant change (well every few months anyway) of the system too.
> 
> ever evolving, keep it up. I'm sure you will end up with Audio serenity.


Thank you,

HAT L1v2 Tweeters *8 kHz up*

Hertz Mids *160 Hz to 8 kHz* saving $$$ for a pair of HAT L3SE's

HAT L6s LOWS *50 Hz to 160 Hz*

HAT I6SW subwoofer *0 Hz to 50 Hz*

I might be off in in a number or two, but this is what I remember, but pretty close.


.


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

derickveliz said:


> Thank you,
> 
> HAT L1v2 Tweeters *8 kHz up*
> 
> Hertz Mids *160 Hz to 8 kHz* saving $$$ for a pair of HAT L3SE's
> 
> HAT L6s LOWS *50 Hz to 160 Hz*
> 
> HAT I6SW subwoofer *0 Hz to 50 Hz*
> 
> I might be off in in a number or two, but this is what I remember, but pretty close.
> 
> 
> .


Check the form, Scott has a special on some L3SE right now. They are like $300.00 if I remember correctly. Dont hold me to it.


----------



## derickveliz

Huckleberry Sound said:


> Check the form, Scott has a special on some L3SE right now. They are like $300.00 if I remember correctly. Dont hold me to it.


Yes, I'm aware of that.

Thank you,


----------



## glidn

derickveliz said:


> Thank you,
> 
> HAT L1v2 Tweeters *8 kHz up*
> 
> Hertz Mids *160 Hz to 8 kHz* saving $$$ for a pair of HAT L3SE's
> 
> HAT L6s LOWS *50 Hz to 160 Hz*
> 
> HAT I6SW subwoofer *0 Hz to 50 Hz*
> 
> I might be off in in a number or two, but this is what I remember, but pretty close.
> 
> 
> .


Thanks for that, Might try some of those figures on the Actual Hertz HSK163.4's. Can't see why they could not play those spectrums.


----------



## derickveliz

*Here are my thoughts about how the "Front Stage" differs from car to car, for example: *

A Ford Mustang, is greatly* favorable Front Stage because the proportions of it's body style,* and the 2nd and 3rd graphics from a Yaris Sedan! with MIDS in kick area and OEM door location.

See the difference in Center Stage between both? *on the Mustang you could feel people singing on the hood! *I know we can manipulate the stage, but physically the *Car has to do a LOT in Car Audio Systems.*

3rd image shows the Point Source "MIDs" in the OEM Doors location, the *stage moves towards listener*, and every thing else is about the same.

*Please let me know what you think, and correct me if I'm wrong.*




























D.


----------



## derickveliz

*What do you think about this:*










LINK

D.


----------



## Mic10is

derickveliz said:


> *What do you think about this:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LINK
> 
> D.


I JUST POSTED THAT PIC on another forum!!!!

Nice article


----------



## Sulley

derickveliz said:


>


Any update on your grills? I'm interested to see how you pull this off.

Hey, Some amazing work. Very impressive


----------



## derickveliz

stockley.rod said:


> Any update on your grills? I'm interested to see how you pull this off.
> 
> Hey, Some amazing work. Very impressive


Thank you,

Not there yet, I've brain storming about it, so far I have this idea of a planar metal frame covered in black grill cloth, I got some powerful tiny magnets that may work holding the frames in place, but we'll see.

I have a friend with the same Yaris at the Yaris forum and he is working on the panel itself, glass and epoxy. He is around DIYMA some times maybe he'll post some shots to see his progress... Sqcomp are there?

D.


----------



## Sulley

simplicityinsound said:


>


^this is quoted from a Simplicity in Sound build for use as an example, evidently the guy does some amazing work. So :thumbsup: to him.

I was thinking about doing something similar to your grill idea but I couldn't really find the right colour grill cloth. Regardless, my plan was to lay down a few layers of fibreglass over the factory grill. Once cured trim the edges, cut the centre out and wrap it in grill cloth. A similar process as in the photos above. 

How your metal idea works I really can't visualize it but with fibreglass you could put the magnets where you want them to sit and then start your fibreglass work. That way they the magnets are embedded and the grill would be thin and sit really nice and flush against the door card. 

Just my thoughts, I have no doubt yours will come out looking great. Excellent build log by the way, lots of good information and photos.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

derickveliz said:


>


same thing i eventually did on my 07tC. woofers have much better "pop" dont they?



derickveliz said:


>


did the same on mine, but with ccf, incase there was an issue with reflection.

good job


----------



## derickveliz

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> same thing i eventually did on my 07tC. woofers have much better "pop" dont they?
> 
> did the same on mine, but with ccf, incase there was an issue with reflection.
> 
> good job


Thanks,

*Yeah, letting them breath makes a big difference!*

D.


----------



## derickveliz

stockley.rod said:


> ^with fibreglass you could put the magnets where you want them to sit and then start your fibreglass work. That way they the magnets are embedded and the grill would be thin and sit really nice and flush against the door card. Just my thoughts,.


*Awesome idea!* Thanks!

D.


----------



## derickveliz

*Interesting?*










D.


----------



## derickveliz

*Look what the P99 did with Auto T/A and Auto EQ...*

(why Mids allways go up to 1.6kHz?)




















D.


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

derickveliz said:


> *Look what the P99 did with Auto T/A and Auto EQ...*
> 
> (why Mids allways go up to 1.6kHz?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D.


as an experiment, have you considered doing Auto T/A and Auto EQ after lining your entire interior (windshield, windows, etc) with ccf? obviously, only while parked... might be interesting the results since hf reflections would be a little more tamed. i'd try it if i had enough ccf.


----------



## derickveliz

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> as an experiment, have you considered doing Auto T/A and Auto EQ after lining your entire interior (windshield, windows, etc) with ccf? obviously, only while parked... might be interesting the results since hf reflections would be a little more tamed. i'd try it if i had enough ccf.


Interesting...
I'll check that out!

D.


----------



## HondAudio

ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> as an experiment, have you considered doing Auto T/A and Auto EQ after lining your entire interior (windshield, windows, etc) with ccf? obviously, only while parked... might be interesting the results since hf reflections would be a little more tamed. i'd try it if i had enough ccf.


Maybe some "VIP style" black velvet curtains for the rear windows? ;D


----------



## derickveliz

*Re-cap...*

*FRONT STAGE HISTORY...*

*1st image:* very narrow stage, image no good

then...

*2nd image:* better image but still narrow stage

and now...

*3rd image:* sweet!


1: *very narrow stage, image no good*









2: *better image but still narrow stage*









3: *sweet! the BEST so far for me.*


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

So you took and droped the 3" down low? Where is it located in the kickpanel...?



derickveliz said:


> *Re-cap...*
> 
> *FRONT STAGE HISTORY...*
> 
> *1st image:* very narrow stage, image no good
> 
> then...
> 
> *2nd image:* better image but still narrow stage
> 
> and now...
> 
> *3rd image:* sweet!
> 
> 
> 1: *very narrow stage, image no good*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2: *better image but still narrow stage*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3: *sweet! the BEST so far for me.*


----------



## derickveliz

Huckleberry Sound said:


> So you took and droped the 3" down low? Where is it located in the kickpanel...?


*YES!*


----------



## Huckleberry Sound

NICE!!!!!


----------



## Got-Four-Eights

Wow.. I just read all this.. really nice work. i was sad to reach the end of this thread  lol


----------



## derickveliz

*It's not over!*




I worked on more deadening, and guess what?? 

This is GREAT! very simple and effective:

There is something very easy to do that *kills most of the engine noise and kills completely the noise from the little motor and mechanism of the wipers! *

Materials used less than 3 square feet of MLV, 1 sq ft of thick MAT and left overs of 1/4 ccFoam, Time about 2 hours (for me at midnight)

Driving at about 80mph RPMs are around 3.5K and it's very quiet! 4k RPMs at 90mph and still very quiet! (O:

D.


----------



## derickveliz

You know me I'm chasing noise all the time and after treating most of the areas in the car, I still get road noise in the cabin! what kind of noise: 

*Engine Noise

Wind Noise

The little Motor from the Windshield wipers *

So I took off the wipers, lift the plastic cover and exposed the wipers motor system on the pilots side and a big opening into the cabin (COWL TO REGISTER DUCT SUB-ASSEMBLY), where the air goes into the interior air filter.

I knew that engine noise will hit the hood and travel up ward towards the windshield and the glass will transmit the noise inside, I'm aware of the wind hitting the windshield adding extra noise, but inspecting this area it's like a long channel made of very thing metal between the engine and the fire wall, right where the windshield begins and it goes from side to side (COWL TOP PANEL OUTER). See images below...

So I started adding some thick MAT (little peaces of CLD Tiles) along this channel, only in the inside, to prevent from reverberating due to the engine noise and transmitting that into the cabin via the windshield and the big opening for the fresh air that goes inside the cabin.

2 issues to resolve, "water" and "air flow" I can't really sealed. I start cutting small pieces of MLV the biggest one with a long shape (see picture below) and just lay it down on the passengers side, I cut 2 smaller ones for the pilot side that I slide under the wiper's electric motor, one more piece of MLV slightly bigger than the opening for fresh air, I cut 2 small triangles on the top side to prevent blocking the air flow.

Doing this I just hit 3 balls in a row, Engine noise, Wind noise, and wiper's noise. I know it's not completely sealed, but it doesn't need to, think MLV as sound barriers like the ones along highways, big solid walls blocking transit noise towards houses along the road.

*The end result, a big change, why I didn't do this before, it's so easy and effective!*

D.


----------



## derickveliz

Got-Four-Eights said:


> Wow.. I just read all this.. really nice work.


*Thank you!*

D.


----------



## deftpunk

Thanks for sharing all these pics and the lessons you learned along the way!


----------



## ReticulatingPigeonElf

did you have a bunch of leaves and dust in there? took the cover off mine once to clean it out because stuff somehow collected in there. Yaris is like, Scion's brother or something right? I have a tC '07.

I might try and use up some of my mlv scraps on mine.


----------



## Blackandblu

Great Post, reading the process was excellent. 

Pictures of builds are great but the knowledge gained from the reasoning is so much more beneficial. BTW nice photography work!


----------



## ek9cv5

Awesome work, props to you.


----------



## HondAudio

derickveliz said:


> You know me I'm chasing noise all the time and after treating most of the areas in the car, I still get road noise in the cabin! what kind of noise:
> 
> *Engine Noise
> 
> Wind Noise
> 
> The little Motor from the Windshield wipers *
> 
> So I took off the wipers, lift the plastic cover and exposed the wipers motor system on the pilots side and a big opening into the cabin (COWL TO REGISTER DUCT SUB-ASSEMBLY), where the air goes into the interior air filter.
> 
> I knew that engine noise will hit the hood and travel up ward towards the windshield and the glass will transmit the noise inside, I'm aware of the wind hitting the windshield adding extra noise, but inspecting this area it's like a long channel made of very thing metal between the engine and the fire wall, right where the windshield begins and it goes from side to side (COWL TOP PANEL OUTER). See images below...
> 
> So I started adding some thick MAT (little peaces of CLD Tiles) along this channel, only in the inside, to prevent from reverberating due to the engine noise and transmitting that into the cabin via the windshield and the big opening for the fresh air that goes inside the cabin.
> 
> 2 issues to resolve, "water" and "air flow" I can't really sealed. I start cutting small pieces of MLV the biggest one with a long shape (see picture below) and just lay it down on the passengers side, I cut 2 smaller ones for the pilot side that I slide under the wiper's electric motor, one more piece of MLV slightly bigger than the opening for fresh air, I cut 2 small triangles on the top side to prevent blocking the air flow.
> 
> Doing this I just hit 3 balls in a row, Engine noise, Wind noise, and wiper's noise. I know it's not completely sealed, but it doesn't need to, think MLV as sound barriers like the ones along highways, big solid walls blocking transit noise towards houses along the road.
> 
> *The end result, a big change, why I didn't do this before, it's so easy and effective!*
> 
> D.


Awesome... if I can get into the same area on my xB, maybe I can make easy modifications to cut the engine noise. I think a lot of it comes through the floor, though...

If I can *feel* the vibration through my feet modulating at the same rate as the engine and road noise... there's where deadening should be applied: the floor


----------



## derickveliz

deftpunk said:


> Thanks for sharing all these pics and the lessons you learned along the way!


*You are welcome!*





ReticulatingPigeonElf said:


> did you have a bunch of leaves and dust in there? took the cover off mine once to clean it out because stuff somehow collected in there. Yaris is like, Scion's brother or something right? I have a tC '07.
> I might try and use up some of my mlv scraps on mine.


*Yes Toyota and Scion's share most of their parts. Mine was clean of leaves, there are 2 compartments the one where the wiper's motor is was perfectly clean. Give it a try, it doesn't hurt.*






Blackandblu said:


> Great Post, reading the process was excellent.
> 
> Pictures of builds are great but the knowledge gained from the reasoning is so much more beneficial. BTW nice photography work!


*Thank you, yes I do appreciate the knowledge thanks to DIYMA members sharing their expertise.*






HondAudio said:


> Awesome... if I can get into the same area on my xB, maybe I can make easy modifications to cut the engine noise. I think a lot of it comes through the floor, though...
> 
> If I can *feel* the vibration through my feet modulating at the same rate as the engine and road noise... there's where deadening should be applied: the floor


*Thanks!
I do have MLV+CCFoam+CLD Tiles all over the floor, wheel wells, and most of the fire-wall, now I can tell that next step will be sail panels-rear view mirrors!

It's like chasing the noise!*

D.


----------



## derickveliz

I was going to attempt tuning using Pink noise and my ears according to these methods (LINK1, LINK2)

*well... don't tell any body I did this when I was driving to work! this is not an appropriate way of tuning, but I got good results, and I wanted to share with you!


It really works! in a few words, I can say it gave my system a BOLD feeling! Bass is much better and I can crank the volume a little bit more with out distortion!

Stage height, width and depth was improved!

I get a better feeling of layers in my stage now!*


Image got much better because *I Had* stuff gathered on the left and right and center wasn't perfect:

**_*_*______*______*_*_* *



Now I get a better distribution: (in songs)

**__*__*____*____*__*__* * 



Now the funny part is when I play my favorite songs they sound really good, very natural and they sound great! but when I play tracks like the 7 drums for example my image gets screw up: I don't care really, because when I play music is much better than before. 

This is my stage with the 7 drum track:

**_*_*_____*__*______*_**





These are images of (A)Auto TA/EQ, after tuning with this (B)method.

(A) AUTO TA










(B) AFTER











I will do it again in a quiet place and with the engine turned off. will share results after...


D.


----------



## n_olympios

The 7 drum track is a ***** to get right. I'm so glad they got rid of it in this year's EMMA comp cd.


----------



## derickveliz

n_olympios said:


> The 7 drum track is a ***** to get right. I'm so glad they got rid of it in this year's EMMA comp cd.


I'm glad too, even though it's a cool track... 

That makes me think what it would take to record my own tracks like this one, so I know what I'm recording and then see how it gets reproduced in the car...

mmmm


D.


----------



## derickveliz

I was in Boston the other day, 70 F beautiful day!










.


----------



## bigguy2010

Loving the progress! Hows the HAT I6SW? I'm still thinking about getting one, just to experiment with?


----------



## Valoblk

This is just outstanding. Great work!!!


----------



## bahlgren342

Do you compete this bad boy?


----------



## derickveliz

bigguy2010 said:


> Loving the progress! Hows the HAT I6SW? I'm still thinking about getting one, just to experiment with?


*It started as an experiment too! as of today it's a keeper! *

I've been thinking on how to improve my Bass... is getting *another one!* but do I really need it? no I don't. But some day I may try, *just to experiment, LOL* (it's in my wish list).

*It's a great SQ woofer, hits hard on my chest, but from the outside your neighbors will be happy. Still though people think I have a 10" woofer some-where?*






Valoblk said:


> This is just outstanding. Great work!!!


*Thank you!*







bahlgren342 said:


> Do you compete this bad boy?


*I would love to participate* in a SQ competition, I really need to know at what level I'm in a system like this. Some times I tell my self... it just can't get better than this? *but I'm sure the sky is the limit!* and there is always some one better.

*Not a lot of SQ events around my area though )o:

Looking forward to do so.* keep in mind that this is a commuter with *180 miles/day with an outstanding 42MGP*

(o:


----------



## derickveliz

Ok, so here is where I'm playing with my T/A and PLDs so far it's working pretty good,
I still have to do a lot more tuning but just understanding how the P99 works Time Alignment took me a while to get the concept.










D.


----------



## bigguy2010

Nice work getting the PLD's calculated. It's kind of nice how all the drivers are out of the way for the most part. Just crazy to wrap your mind around how odd the placement is for how good it must sound. Random question.....might you still have the Pioneer PRS-X720 pictured on the first page? Noticed it wasn't in your diagram.


----------



## 85C10

Previously you said that were trying fcarpio's method for setting T/A by ear with good results. In your last post your T/A settings are quite different from the settings you arrived at with the "by-ear" method. Have you given up on this method? Did you ever attempt it in a more quiet environment?

BTW I would like to thank you for documenting your "journey" so well. I have been following it for some time and have found it to be one of the most inspiring threads on the forum.


----------



## derickveliz

bigguy2010 said:


> Nice work getting the PLD's calculated. It's kind of nice how all the drivers are out of the way for the most part. Just crazy to wrap your mind around how odd the placement is for how good it must sound. Random question.....might you still have the Pioneer PRS-X720 pictured on the first page? Noticed it wasn't in your diagram.


*Thanks, *

No sorry, that HU is no longer with me. Currently I'm using Pioneer P99

.


----------



## derickveliz

85C10 said:


> Previously you said that were trying fcarpio's method for setting T/A by ear with good results. In your last post your T/A settings are quite different from the settings you arrived at with the "by-ear" method. Have you given up on this method? Did you ever attempt it in a more quiet environment?
> 
> BTW I would like to thank you for documenting your "journey" so well. I have been following it for some time and have found it to be one of the most inspiring threads on the forum.


Yes it's a little different, this is a learning process and by trying their Technic, I've learn so much about my system, first I have a front stage 3 way with the subwoofer up front, and my right Mid (point source) is the furthest speaker in the equation, that means they get zero "0" delay, that is why you see that TA is 155.39 in. Every thing else get delay from that (the smaller the number means more delay) 

The first time I did fcarpio's method, I didn't take in consideration the physical location of all my speakers, and at some point I got confused comparing Auto T/A and T/A off, when doing it again and again, there was some point I just couldn't tell what was going on or to really hear a difference, then...

I realized that the distances of all the speakers to my ears is so close that I just need it very little delay. 

What made my adjustments easier was that my Mids play from 163Hz up to 10 or 12kHz so if I could just have them fine tune my image would be 80-90% done. I did have to modify TA for the Lows (midbass) and pulled the image away from the center towards the left working together with the Subwoofer to get the bass in the center of the stage. Strange things happen in side every car.

In other words just do what ever it takes that makes it sound good.


*I hope I didn't confuse you here, I'm sleepy and can't really put my thoughts in black and white... LOL*


I'm glad you like my journey, thank you! (o:



.


----------



## derickveliz

*Today...*
I had my cousin test *the sweet spot, *
and he was very impressed of the sound, but what called his attention was that he *couldn't hear the speakers. *
For him it was a strange feeling with a *big smile on his face!*


BTW he took this picture after we met:


----------



## bigguy2010

derickveliz said:


> *Thanks, *
> 
> No sorry, that HU is no longer with me. Currently I'm using Pioneer P99
> 
> .


The PRS-X720 is a 2-channel amplifier. You have it pictured on the bottom of your first post. You Probably don't have the amp, if you mistakes it for a HU. 

Anyhow, keep up the awesome work man. Wish I had the time you do, to invest in my car.


----------



## derickveliz

bigguy2010 said:


> The PRS-X720 is a 2-channel amplifier. You have it pictured on the bottom of your first post. You Probably don't have the amp, if you mistakes it for a HU.
> 
> Anyhow, keep up the awesome work man. Wish I had the time you do, to invest in my car.


*I guess I was very sleepy last night*, I actually got a cold or some kind of spring allergy... 

*Yes you are right it's not the HU it's my pioneer amp.* well that one like other stuff is downstairs in my closet, 

*some day I'll put them for sale*. I have other amps, 3 Kicker 10" solo baric, an IDQ12, a 10 Bachuka, etc.


----------



## req

i am in the process of deciding if i want mids in the kicks. makes my trigger finger itchy on the jigsaw lol 

exelent stuff man. fantastic job thus far


----------



## derickveliz

req said:


> i am in the process of deciding if i want mids in the kicks. makes my trigger finger itchy on the jigsaw lol
> 
> exelent stuff man. fantastic job thus far


*(edit) Thanks! I just read you have a VW GTI... so now is what mids are you going to use?*

If it was me... depending on the car physical characteristics, check your PLDs kicks vrs doors, sails panels, or a-pillars. What ever makes your equation a smaller number that's what I would choose.

What car do you have?

.


----------



## chaza

nice looks like a clean install


----------



## derickveliz

chaza said:


> nice looks like a clean install


*Thanks,* 
I try my best even though I don't go crazy with details. 

.


----------



## werner sline

what an interesting thread ! very good work and evolution, i'm going a similar way.

check out my subwoofer front : la quattro de werner ou les errances d'un audiophile - Page 6


----------



## derickveliz

werner sline said:


> what an interesting thread ! very good work and evolution, i'm going a similar way.
> 
> check out my subwoofer front : la quattro de werner ou les errances d'un audiophile - Page 6


*Thanks,*

That's a nice A4 there!

Hey I took one of your pictures here, I hope you don't mind.

I think it's very interesting tell us a little bit more about it! these little woofers are no joke, and they aren't cheap and work sealed in a very small box, is that right? 

I have one question? what if some one shorter needs to move the seat forward? is this under the pilots side? or passenger? I can't tell from the picture. can you remove the box easily? 











.


----------



## derickveliz

*So for the record... here are my x-over points, EQ and Time Alignment as of today... Before the L and R EQ process: wish me luck!*
































































.


----------



## werner sline

the sub-box in the audi a4 is actually very small : 5 L only. I built the box with the seat being very low. As it is the passenger seat, it will not be moved often. I adjusted it for me, as I am 186cm tall. So the seat stays very low, quite forward, and my 163cm gilfriend can adjust it to her size without any problem.

The focal little sub are incredible : the run very deep, and you understand that their specs are really calculated for a building in the front of the car. I previously used them in my peugeot 406 and used only 1pcs. it worked as good as as JL audio 10w3 ! okey , not as loud, but equally deep, if not deeper ! so 2pcs of these focal provide enough power and I never have to worry about them. I use a 20Hz 36Db/oct slope to ease their job. And they run up to 80Hz at 18Db/oct. I love how they hit nicely...


----------



## derickveliz

werner sline said:


> I use a 20Hz 36Db/oct slope to ease their job. And they run up to 80Hz at 18Db/oct. I love how they hit nicely...


I'll try that with the I6SW


At some point I would like to* try 2 I6SWs * 

.


----------



## bigguy2010

Where is the impressions of the x720?


----------



## derickveliz

bigguy2010 said:


> Where is the impressions of the x720?


Ok, I think I own you this one!

*Bigguy, asked me* if I would sell him my x720 amp, I told him "yes" *but I was going to plug it in my car just to make sure it was working after a year in the closet.*

To my surprise the* I6SW fell in love with this amp,* I guess the extra power was just right. I had people sit in my car and they feel like If I had a 10" woofer in a sealed box, the gain to me with this amp in a positive way is *WOW! now feels like a 12"*

I wrote back to bigguy... I have bad news and good news, the amp is working, but it works so well, that I'm having second thoughts about selling it. I had it for a week now and love it, this week I'm going back to my other amp and feel/test a couple more times.



It plays beautiful, goes very low and hits my chest the way I like it! and I know... it doesn't have the performance of a full size 12" woofer, when I compare the I6SW with my IDQ12, (both in front) the I6SW gets thumbs up:

1.- *I6SW Hits my chest harder than the IDQ12,* and the *IDQ12 shackes my car a lot more and the seats too* (witch I dislike, after a while it's not nice) and if I put the IDQ12 in the trunk, my seat vibrates even more!

2.- *IDQ12+1sf box is too big* and blocks my Mids and MidBass, in other words... *kills my front stage*

3.- *This one I like:* lets say both feel and perform the same, but with the* IDQ12 people can hear me coming down the road,* but that doesn't happen with the I6SW - that is a plus for me and the I6SW



So for me it's an interesting experience and now I'm thinking... *should I get a mono block* with about 400-500 watts with a *gain control (I really miss that with the x720 since it doesn't comes with that option) *and sell the x720 to bigguy? or ...

*sell my 5 channel PowerBass amp*, buy a new 4 channel and keep the x720* (probably that is what bigguy doesn't want to happen)*

*I'm open to suggestions, *and Bigguy... what ever I do if I decide to sell the x720* you'll be the first one on my list.* It's funny I already have a box and packing material from the post office with a label ready.


----------



## bigguy2010

derickveliz said:


> Ok, I think I own you this one!
> 
> *Bigguy, asked me* if I would sell him my x720 amp, I told him "yes" *but I was going to plug it in my car just to make sure it was working after a year in the closet.*
> 
> To my surprise the* I6SW fell in love with this amp,* I guess the extra power was just right. I had people sit in my car and they feel like If I had a 10" woofer in a sealed box, the gain to me with this amp in a positive way is *WOW! now feels like a 12"*
> 
> I wrote back to bigguy... I have bad news and good news, the amp is working, but it works so well, that I'm having second thoughts about selling it. I had it for a week now and love it, this week I'm going back to my other amp and feel/test a couple more times.
> 
> 
> 
> It plays beautiful, goes very low and hits my chest the way I like it! and I know... it doesn't have the performance of a full size 12" woofer, when I compare the I6SW with my IDQ12, (both in front) the I6SW gets thumbs up:
> 
> 1.- *I6SW Hits my chest harder than the IDQ12,* and the *IDQ12 shackes my car a lot more and the seats too* (witch I dislike, after a while it's not nice) and if I put the IDQ12 in the trunk, my seat vibrates even more!
> 
> 2.- *IDQ12+1sf box is too big* and blocks my Mids and MidBass, in other words... *kills my front stage*
> 
> 3.- *This one I like:* lets say both feel and perform the same, but with the* IDQ12 people can hear me coming down the road,* but that doesn't happen with the I6SW - that is a plus for me and the I6SW
> 
> 
> 
> So for me it's an interesting experience and now I'm thinking... *should I get a mono block* with about 400-500 watts with a *gain control (I really miss that with the x720 since it doesn't comes with that option) *and sell the x720 to bigguy? or ...
> 
> *sell my 5 channel PowerBass amp*, buy a new 4 channel and keep the x720* (probably that is what bigguy doesn't want to happen)*
> 
> *I'm open to suggestions, *and Bigguy... what ever I do if I decide to sell the x720* you'll be the first one on my list.* It's funny I already have a box and packing material from the post office with a label ready.


Well....which ever way you go, it will be fun. I totally understand if you want to keep the 720. I'd still love to have it, but if you decide to keep it, I'll be ok. 

Don't think I don't want it though, because I still do hahah:worried:


----------



## HondAudio

derickveliz said:


>


Derick-

Did you ever take pictures of what you did in the cowl area? I had mine open yesterday and I put in a few small pieces of some eDead - which I now realize is practically useless compared to "real" deadener.

There was a lot of surprising asymmetry and awkward leaning over the engine bay, and I didn't want to do anything too drastic that might block water drainage, so I'm going to revisit the area sometime in the future. I'd like to maybe block off some of the holes that let air into the cabin, but that might actually add noise, as the air going through the remaining holes would be at a higher velocity.


----------



## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> Derick-
> 
> Did you ever take pictures of what you did in the cowl area? I had mine open yesterday and I put in a few small pieces of some eDead - which I now realize is practically useless compared to "real" deadener.
> 
> There was a lot of surprising asymmetry and awkward leaning over the engine bay, and I didn't want to do anything too drastic that might block water drainage, so I'm going to revisit the area sometime in the future. I'd like to maybe block off some of the holes that let air into the cabin, but that might actually add noise, as the air going through the remaining holes would be at a higher velocity.



I'm about to open up that area to check how everything is working. Will take some shots!

Adding eDead it's not bad... that reduces the metal to vibrate and you minimize reverberations. That's what Maserati is doing to their cars, I watched on cable how they do it and they even called "noise barriers" where just some patches of Mat been attach to the fire wall and other flat areas.

I'm sure that we want to pay attention the the water drainage in this area, I did minimize the intake of the air into the cabin putting a piece of MLV with smaller openings in a triangular shape, I didn't notice any addition of noise, all the opposite! because a lot of the engine and wind noise was going through the air intake directly into the cabin.

.


----------



## derickveliz

*BTW, using sqcomp photo I did an image trying to visualize a front stage, now imagine that this is an hologram and each artist it's playing live music! and you can feel and localize each individual's position in the stage.*











.


----------



## dogsbark26

That's cool.

It sure is good when you find that sweet spot.


----------



## derickveliz

dogsbark26 said:


> That's cool.
> 
> It sure is good when you find that sweet spot.



*I'm not there yet, but working on it!*

More tuning makes me happy every day.

.


----------



## derickveliz

derickveliz said:


> I'm about to open up that area to check how everything is working. Will take some shots!
> .


I did, and found out that water drainage is working ok,* but the heat from the headers it's making the MLV to change shape...* and a couple pieces of Mat came off, I'm assuming the change in temperatures makes the adhesion loose strength.






























*Ready to add a layer of "heat barrier"*












*Overlapping this material to get extra layers*











*MLV behind wipers mechanism...* What a difference! specially on rainy days. LOL






















*Over exposed picture showing air intake on the left side "that little triangle there" *










.


----------



## derickveliz

Ok, I had to play with the* Left and Right EQ on the P99...*


* (first attempt)*

I couldn't test it with normal volume because I was in the garage while the rest of the family was sleeping, so tomorrow I'll try it "out loud"

*But from what I could hear at very low volume is... WOW! *


I started with my EQ "Flat" and work my way around every tone, some where to the right others to the left and others right on center. My EQ graph end up like crazi!!! I'll get pictures tomorrow (well later today).

Tuning Left and right EQ I must say... there is so much to learn out there. And amazes me every time I get positive results.


.


----------



## sydmonster

Props!! 
Well done for seeing this through so far! I like your adventarous thinking.


----------



## derickveliz

derickveliz said:


> Ok, I had to play with the* Left and Right EQ on the P99...*
> 
> 
> * (first attempt)*
> I started with my EQ "Flat" and work my way around every tone, some where to the right others to the left and others right on center. My EQ graph end up like crazi!!! I'll get pictures tomorrow (well later today).



*New X-Over points:*











*Left side EQ:*











*Right side EQ:*











*EQ combined Left & Right:*










.


----------



## derickveliz

sydmonster said:


> Props!!
> Well done for seeing this through so far! I like your adventarous thinking.


Thank you! :thumbsup:


.


----------



## derickveliz

Some things I've been thinking about it...

Some time ago I fell in love with *Time Alignment, *
lately I'm drooling *Left & Right EQ.*

My *Midbass* love the *Subwoofer* they compliment each other.

My *Mids* sound so insignificant... though that's where *all the magic happens!* 

Windshield, screws me up with hundreds of *reflections.*

Some *extra Power* from amps make every thing happen.

Deadening and *Blocking* road/engine noise pays off for *a confi. ride*

I still tend to* tune for the road...* isn't that awkward but at the same time makes sense for a long commuter.

A big help for my ears and body to understand how a track should sound like..
*Reference!* I got my kids a set of *drums*, now I know how it should sound! We got a big old *Piano*, and I'm trying to listen to* live music* as much as I can.

And something I don't do any more...* speak on my cell phone without speaker mode,* I'm try to avoid the phone over one ear at a time. Sounds stupid but keeps my ears balanced.

Also I'm trying to stay *away from earphones!* the feeling of the center image going through my head is not what I want/like.

Avoid *LOUD* music or noise for a long extended period of time.

A song becomes a *Good a song* when it's * well recorded* no matter what song is it.

Talking about songs, the other day *I was struggling to get the big bass drum
to be right on the center of the stage,* until I watched the video from youtube
on my phone and playing a very well recorded track at the same time, guess
what! I found out the *big bass drum IS slightly to the right.*

*- Now every thing makes sense!*













.


----------



## hugo23

That's a very fun track, I used to include it to demo my system years ago,


----------



## 85C10

Thank you for that track. Very cool. Embarrassingly, I had never heard of MANÁ before.


----------



## derickveliz

hugo23 said:


> That's a very fun track, I used to include it to demo my system years ago,


Of course! I bet you did, "Mana" is famous in Latin America and originally from Mexico!

Saludos.

.


----------



## derickveliz

85C10 said:


> Thank you for that track. Very cool. Embarrassingly, I had never heard of MANÁ before.


You are welcome!

.


----------



## goodstuff

COLADITO!


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> COLADITO!


*Hey how are you goodstuff?*

we should make another mini meet, my place? your place? any suggestions?

I made another SQ-disk for tuning, came out nice. Just like the one with *COLADITO!* the one I shared on our last meet.

I made a few changes since last meet, I'm moving the tweeters forward and further apart! *stage is wider and deeper.* But now I have to figure out a way to redo my a-pillars ???

I also have a question for you, I'll pm you later.

.


----------



## goodstuff

Somehow I missed your buildlog. Didn't know you had all that deadening. 

Might be easier to get used pillars from the junkyard unless you find it easy to remove the bedliner stuff. I've used it before on a box and it was NOT coming off. 
You would still have a hole where the speaker was so I think that might be your best bet.

As for meeting. It's so hot. I'm a ***** in the summer time, lol. I'm looking into installing an ac unit in my garage. 
I already own it. It's been sitting in my basement for a few years so I don't know if it will last very long.
Been feeling like I want to change things again but not sure. I really need some kind of serious rta measurements before I go any further I think.


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> Might be easier to get used pillars from the junkyard unless you find it easy to remove the bedliner stuff. I've used it before on a box and it was NOT coming off. You would still have a hole where the speaker was so I think that might be your best bet.


I've never had the chance to find a junkyard around this area, is there one in your area? might be hard to get parts for a Yaris sedan?

I actually cut into the metal, No more hole in a-pillar because (left) tweeter is 3.5 inches further and 2 inches towards the left. I would have to cut most of the down part of the a-pillar and create some sort of horn wide open.

Now I have left tweeter as far forward and far to the left I possible can! I gain 5 inches and that's a lot! the distance from my left ear to tweeter now is 48" it used to be 43".

Stage is wider and deeper already! 
Probably 5 inches sound meaningless, but you should hear the difference that it makes.




























.


----------



## goodstuff

derickveliz said:


> I've never had the chance to find a junkyard around this area, is there one in your area? might be hard to get parts for a Yaris sedan?
> 
> I actually cut into the metal, No more hole in a-pillar because (left) tweeter is 3.5 inches further and 2 inches towards the left. I would have to cut most of the down part of the a-pillar and create some sort of horn wide open.
> 
> Now I have left tweeter as far forward and far to the left I possible can! I gain 5 inches and that's a lot! the distance from my left ear to tweeter now is 48" it used to be 43".
> 
> Stage is wider and deeper already!
> Probably 5 inches sound meaningless, but you should hear the difference that it makes.
> 
> 
> 
> .



5" is NOT ridiculous. That's a huge amount to move a tweet.


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> 5" is NOT ridiculous. That's a huge amount to move a tweet.


Stage is much bigger now! *I'm happy* 

,


----------



## trojan fan

Hey derick, shouldn't your signature read "sweeten your senses"


----------



## derickveliz

trojan fan said:


> Hey derick, shouldn't your signature read "sweeten your senses"


*Yes!* sorry English is not my native language. 
some times I put my accent when I type! LOL


----------



## derickveliz

*Area to but removed...*



















I'm sorry for the quality of the pictures, I used my cellphone 




.


----------



## slpery

Ive followed your install for a long time and love your work, but im concerened about you cutting into the a pillar. This is a very important strucural part of the car. Ive seen cars written off by insurance companies because they had a large dent on the outside of the pillar. But thats down-under.

Not trying to bite ya head off, just a little concerned for your safety.


----------



## derickveliz

slpery said:


> Ive followed your install for a long time and love your work, but im concerened about you cutting into the a pillar. This is a very important strucural part of the car. Ive seen cars written off by insurance companies because they had a large dent on the outside of the pillar. But thats down-under.
> 
> Not trying to bite ya head off, just a little concerned for your safety.


*Thank you, slpery,* I hear you, @ *less than 1" in Diameter* per hole it's not going to week anything, I do have a very good understanding on metal structural engineering, *I can assure you that some thing else is going to break before the a-pillars even without been in an accident. lol*

But I appreciate your concern. I would care more for a big *flying SubWoofer box.
*
D.


----------



## slpery

haha true. The joys of owning a hatchback.


----------



## derickveliz

______________________________

Ok, so I'm happy as a *clown!*

Left tweeter in new location, *sounds phenomenal!*

Left & Right tweeters in new locations... *sounds like Heaven!*



Best improvement ever after:

*- Woofer up front

- Mids down in kick area*



*Stage* is much larger *BIG-BIG-BIG,* in all directions Up-Down, Left-Right, but the best gain is *Depth!*

Center image is almost spot on (within 3"-4" circumference) further away from me, and in some tracks feels funny that it's outside the car. 

In other words sounds like a much better system than 2 weeks ago. 

Still need to work on the a-pillars!  But driving without them doesn't bother me, jeje



.


----------



## n_olympios

Where are the new pictures?


----------



## derickveliz

n_olympios said:


> Where are the new pictures?


I'll take more pictures, but you can imagine just the Tweeters right on the metal structure of the a-pillar without the plastic trim.

more or less like this:


----------



## BrianAbington

How did you make the hole in the A-Pillar? I've thought about trying that in the past but putting a drill that close to my windshield makes me nervous. 

You could cut out a large section of the bottom of the pillar trim and put mesh across that surface and wrap the whole pillar in grill cloth. 

then you could remove the mesh that is directly over the tweeter. 

If you need replacement parts I'd look on the various yaris/small car forums. That is a great place to find parts.


I should add that I'm seriosuly considering doing a small upfront sub in addition to a larger one in the trunk of my bonneville.


----------



## narvarr

derickveliz said:


> I'll take more pictures, but you can imagine just the Tweeters right on the metal structure of the a-pillar without the plastic trim.
> 
> more or less like this:


Wow! That reminds me of this install:
http://all4sq.com/a_pillars_16.html
Good thinking Derick. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2


----------



## derickveliz

BrianAbington said:


> How did you make the hole in the A-Pillar? I've thought about trying that in the past but putting a drill that close to my windshield makes me nervous.




*I was nervous too, but it's all about SQ (o:*



*Video1:**It was so easy that I took my phone for a video!




*Video 2:* Without holding my cell phone for video I could probably have done it in less than half of the time..



D.


----------



## derickveliz

BrianAbington said:


> You could cut out a large section of the bottom of the pillar trim and put mesh across that surface and wrap the whole pillar in grill cloth.
> 
> then you could remove the mesh that is directly over the tweeter.
> 
> If you need replacement parts I'd look on the various yaris/small car forums. That is a great place to find parts.
> 
> 
> I should add that I'm seriosuly considering doing a small upfront sub in addition to a larger one in the trunk of my bonneville.


*Yes I like that idea*, I'll find out once I start cutting the a-pillar trim...

*Subwoofer upfront... "go for it" *

.


----------



## derickveliz

narvarr said:


> Wow! That reminds me of this install:
> A Pillars
> Good thinking Derick.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY NOTE using Tapatalk 2



*Thanks,
*Just think about it, *48" from left ear to left tweeter!* and tweeters are about *4.5"* farther apart from each other.


.


----------



## falstaff

Wow, I thought most cars had boron steel runnning up the A-pillar for R-O-P?

Here's a fire rescue forum that explains it a bit more: Volvo A-Pillar with Boron Pipe Inside


----------



## BrianAbington

falstaff said:


> Wow, I thought most cars had boron steel runnning up the A-pillar for R-O-P?
> 
> Here's a fire rescue forum that explains it a bit more: Volvo A-Pillar with Boron Pipe Inside


I bet that pipe is for the convertible to give it more roll over protection. I doubt most entry level cars have that. 

A few years back Mercedes had a commercial of one of their cars (e or s class) painted orange for the test, it's on a sled and the sled stops and the car keeps going sideways and rolls over. The body pannels dented, but the roof structure didn't deform in any way at all. 

If you flip a yaris I bet the edge above the windshield would be on the dash.


----------



## n_olympios

Not really, now most cars are much better structurally than the older ones. Then again, my best friend who is a fireman has seen some really creapy stuff, which include brand new cars.


----------



## BrianAbington

Derick is right though...a 1 inch hole won't make a difference.

Now if I were to make an 10x5 slot in my b-pillars for a pair of B&G Neo10's...that would be a different store.


----------



## falstaff

I think if you did a search on UHSS (ultra high strength steel) you be suprised at how many vehicles use it. 

Heres a list i found real quick: List Of Vehicles With Boron And UHSS | Boron Extrication

I highly doubt the yaris had any in the a-pillar if the OP what able to just use a drill or holesaw, heck even a recip saw blade wouldnt cut through that stuff.


Heres a better list : http://boronextrication.com/vehicles-with-boron-and-uhss/list-of-vehicles-with-boron-and-uhss/


----------



## acr

Love the thread and attention to detail, I have learned quite a bit reading through this. Quality photography has helped as well. Thanks for keeping us updated, looking forward to further developments.


----------



## derickveliz

BrianAbington said:


> If you flip a yaris I bet the edge above the windshield would be on the dash.


I've been on motorcyles for almost 30 years now, I always use a helmet, and used to say:

*"I'm going to wear my helmet but I'm not going to use it"*

Knock on wood that doesn't happen, and if so... my guess is that the structure of the yaris works more like the structure of an egg, but believe me, I'm not here to test that! LOL

.


----------



## derickveliz

acr said:


> Love the thread and attention to detail, I have learned quite a bit reading through this. Quality photography has helped as well. Thanks for keeping us updated, looking forward to further developments.


*Thanks acr!*

I appreciate your input, helps my motivation to keep this thread up to date!

To me it has been a* huge learning experience,* thanks again.

.


----------



## derickveliz

*A second i6SW in Yaris...*











D.


----------



## sinister-kustoms

Cool, look forward to the build. Is this going to replace the first or will you be running both of them?


----------



## n_olympios

Very nice, although I'm a bit worried about phasing issues with 2 subs facing in different angles.


----------



## derickveliz

sinister-kustoms said:


> Cool, look forward to the build. Is this going to replace the first or will you be running both of them?


Thanks

Both of them at the same time.

D.


----------



## derickveliz

n_olympios said:


> Very nice, although I'm a bit worried about phasing issues with 2 subs facing in different angles.


Thanks,

*It doesn't matter, boxes are vented *and the vents will be one next to the other one! "forward towards the fire wall"










D.


----------



## n_olympios

Eeer it doesn't work that way Derick. The sound isn't only (or even mainly) emitted from the port, but from the speaker itself.


----------



## derickveliz

n_olympios said:


> Eeer it doesn't work that way Derick. The sound isn't only (or even mainly) emitted from the port, but from the speaker itself.


I'm sorry if I'm been naive here, but I thought that when running a vented box is the rear of the woofer that produces the sound, and goes through the vent towards the outside of the box.

But even if that's the case, the second woofer is facing down the carpet with no direct communication with the first one, I could even enclosed it even more.

But I still believe in my physics and I don't want to sound stubborn, I don't think it matters, but if I'm wrong I'm here to learn! 

I had my ear next to the woofer the other day and it doesn't produces any sound... confuse here... but lets find out.

D.


----------



## n_olympios

How can it only be the rear of the sub making the sound, if the cone also moves air at the front side? 

Please don't let me be misunderstood, I'm not trying to lessen your efforts, but there are at least 3 basic flaws in your thinking regarding this second sub box. I really hope it works, but it'll be by chance and not due to physics or correct implementation.


----------



## derickveliz

*I'm all ears now...*

D.


----------



## derickveliz

So boxes like this don't work, due to phase issues, or here is where my concept is wrong and because my woofers are not aiming in the same direction?



















D.


----------



## BrianAbington

Ported/vented enclosures are more efficient and louder because you hear sound from both the front and back of the woofer. Not just the port. It may sound more up front with your current woofer because the port's exit may be getting some loading from the firewall floor being so close to it. If you get down by the enclosure you will hear sound from the front of the woofer too...put your hand or a towel over the port and you will notice it more. 

Those vented enclosures you posted don't have phasing issues because the woofers and vents are all on the same side of the enclosure. 

If the vents were on one side and the woofers on the top or opposite side you may have some issues with phase. 

The real issue you may have with the under dash enclosure would be cancelation. Where frequencies from two woofers pointing in different directions cancel each other out. 

In my opinion you would be better making an enclosure that holds both woofers on the same plane as each other, wether that be under the dash, or making a new enclosure along your cosole, or in the foot well.


----------



## sinister-kustoms

How much would it matter if you lost say 5" of depth on the passenger side floor? It looks to me like there's quite a bit of depth from the top of the seat base to the floor, so what about down firing both woofers and have the port on the same plane. Excuse the crude drawing, but something like this?








Providing you have enough air space, you could even taper it towards the front for more foot room.


----------



## BrianAbington

sinister-kustoms said:


> How much would it matter if you lost say 5" of depth on the passenger side floor? It looks to me like there's quite a bit of depth from the top of the seat base to the floor, so what about down firing both woofers and have the port on the same plane. Excuse the crude drawing, but something like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Providing you have enough air space, you could even taper it towards the front for more foot room.


Or put the woofers angled along the firewall towards the passenger, and build the whole enclosure out over the passenger side floor like that drawing. May not raise the floor as much that way.


----------



## derickveliz

So a box with one chamber, 2 subs and one vent it's possible, or equal or as good as a box with 2 chambers and 2 vents?

D.


----------



## subwoofery

n_olympios said:


> Eeer it doesn't work that way Derick. The sound isn't only (or even mainly) emitted from the port, but from the speaker itself.


That is correct... Ports emits sound that is 180° out of phase which translate in added group delay. 
In a vented enclosure, both the port and the woofer makes the sound. Above the tuning frequency, the woofer makes most of the sound. Near tuning, the port makes most of the sound (pressure inside the enclosure is @ its max). 

Don't remember the exact numbers but in order to have an enclosure that is phase correct, the port needs to be much further away from the woofer. 
Patrick Bateman wrote a few things about that... am too lazy to search and quote lol

Kelvin 

Edit: it's already hard to have a woofer in phase with 1 port so adding another box makes it even harder - especially with the woofer facing another way


----------



## bigguy2010

This build never gets old! Keep it up!


----------



## trojan fan

bigguy2010 said:


> This build never gets old! Keep it up!


The build thread that keeps on giving


----------



## trojan fan

**** it!!!....go sealed and call it a day:laugh:


----------



## derickveliz

trojan fan said:


> **** it!!!....go sealed and call it a day:laugh:


I know I could do that (some how i6SW calls for vented) I have a plan "B" with one of my old Isobaric 10" sub, that could go in the same internal volume of 2 i6SWs (0.66 cf).

*But every thing started from how good 1 single i6SW in it's vented box sounds/feels, what about 2?*

D.


----------



## derickveliz

I put my thoughts in some lines to express what could work out?

what do you guys think? (sorry for the drawing not been accurate, I just want to show the concept)










.


----------



## derickveliz

*All this is because a DIYMA member "TheDavel" donate me a second i6SW to play with (of course I'm going to give it back later on)*

*Not that I'm not satisfy with my set up as is, and so practical with good BASS from a single woofer, and still have space for a passenger, I'm totally proud of my self to this point and I believe it's a winner,* but if I can make two i6SW to work, I'm going to cut the floor and go down about 2 inches and build a box rising the floor 1.5". *That's kind of the plan...*

For now I put together a summary of my build before moving the tweeters forward, *so the Testimonials have a date and consider some progress along the time line for good!*











.


----------



## n_olympios

derickveliz said:


> what do you guys think? (sorry for the drawing not been accurate, I just want to show the concept)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Would that be two separate chambers in a single enclosure? Why would you do that, especially since you're tight in space down there? If you do put the 2 subs on the same plane (and you should as it's much better) then you only need one common chamber and the equivalent one port to suit them. Or two smaller ports if you don't have the space for the big one. 

Also, it's best if your ports aren't facing the opposite way of the subs' front, that's bound to give you cancellation issues. 

PS: I like the pictures with the info on them, great job.  Just a small correction there (if you don't mind), it's "litre" and not "litter" (litter means garbage ) and you missed an r on qua*r*ter panels.


----------



## derickveliz

n_olympios said:


> Would that be two separate chambers in a single enclosure? Why would you do that, especially since you're tight in space down there? If you do put the 2 subs on the same plane (and you should as it's much better) then you only need one common chamber and the equivalent one port to suit them. Or two smaller ports if you don't have the space for the big one.
> 
> Also, it's best if your ports aren't facing the opposite way of the subs' front, that's bound to give you cancellation issues.
> 
> PS: I like the pictures with the info on them, great job.  Just a small correction there (if you don't mind), it's "litre" and not "litter" (litter means garbage ) and you missed an r on qua*r*ter panels.


So instead of 2 boxes of 0.35cf each 1 big box of 0.70cf?
and it could be 2 vents 15" long x 2" dia.?

And the woofers could be facing in the same direction of the vents or should be facing up or down at 90 degrees from vent?


Thanks for the typos, that's what's me at 2 a.m.

.


----------



## n_olympios

I'd rather have them facing in the same direction, although 90 degrees have been known to work sometimes. But with porting, space around it and position relative to the listeners have an influence. 

It's all to do with phasing. Where the sub and port point, their relative position and distance, their position in the car, all of them matter. Footwells tend to help in sub frequencies as they work as big horn structures, especially if you put the sub in the glovebox facing downwards. In most cases, sealed boxes are used due to the port restrictions mentioned above. Having a port just gives you another thing to care for. 

However, a fundamental rule of car audio is that some things work and some don't, and not always according to what theory dictates. I have to say, I admire your passion and incentive for experimentation.


----------



## derickveliz

n_olympios said:


> However, a fundamental rule of car audio is that some things work and some don't, and not always according to what theory dictates. I have to say, I admire your passion and incentive for experimentation.


*Thank you,* like I said before... "it's the never ending story" my Install... always looking for some thing else and what if?


.


----------



## nervewrecker

I will be hanging around in this thread.  

Lots of good stuff and epic build ftw!


----------



## derickveliz

nervewrecker said:


> I will be hanging around in this thread.
> 
> Lots of good stuff and epic build ftw!


*Thank you!*

.


----------



## derickveliz

This video is to show how fast is my Yaris... LOL

*NO, the idea is to show how much engine noise gets into the cabin (or how much engine noise is blocked into the cabin) in hard acceleration:* 

I set up the music low enough to hear it as a reference against engine noise.



.


----------



## derickveliz

More to think about... "Center Image"

*Feel the music!*

Left & Right EQ


----------



## derickveliz

*I wrote this in other thread, I thought it would be nice to have it handy here.*


*Lets start with PLDs...*
This is how PLDs work in my car, the example is on the Mids in kick area, the idea is you measure from left speaker to left ear, right speaker to right ear, then do the math. Do this in different positions, the smaller the result the better.














*Now when I was starting into this hobby I never understood what center image was,* I came up with this little exercise at home that you can try it too. This will help you to find that center image every body talks about:

Photo 1: Try to recreate the scene at home, the idea is that you stand right in the middle of the speakers, play a few songs of your choice.

Photo 2: You will feel that there is a 3rd speaker just above your head, like a phantom! that is the center image; most of the time would be the singer.

Give it a try!






















*Now the problem is when you are not in the center of the speakers (in our cars) so to recreate that phantom (center image) right in the center of your car from the Pilot side we try to work it out mechanically (smaller PLDs) then Time Alignment and Left+Right Equalization. The end result is a 3D-mentional feeling of each track, is like been at a concert or live music at a cafe, where you can tell where is the singer (most of the time in the center AKA center-image) where is the Piano, the guitar, etc; and you can even feel how big or small is the room. When you accomplish this you can say that you have a Solid Sound-Stage. * see image below:












.


----------



## derickveliz

*Ok today I found an awesome way to adjust my center image:*

*I had my cellphone right in front of the instrument panel (arrow 1)* with the GPS rolling and telling me what was my next turn. When... I just realized that...

While listening to a track with a very solid center image I noticed *the voice of the singer was behind my cellphone's voice,* a little bit to the left, so...

I moved my phone above the instrument panel (arrow 2) now playing a song... *Still my center image was behind so...*

*I moved my phone behind the instrument cluster (arrow 3) *in the center of the dashboard where the windshield meets... *(Note that this position is about 5 feet from my right ear)*

My center image was some how next to the phone's (playing another song in speaker voice) so...

*I proceed to adjust my Time Alignment (T/A) *to mach the position of my cellphone playing a different song, since it's mono gives me the* feedback of a center channel* where I can match my center image.

End result while experimenting with this was *really good *and makes sense to me, what do you think?

*Conclusion:* a new way of Tuning may be accomplish using my cellphone with one speaker and placing the speaker on arrow 3 (see image below) adjusting Left and Right EQ and T/A to match my center image.* I got to try this over my lunch time this week.*











.


----------



## Wesayso

It's not only the speaker position with TA that determines the center image. Frequency response has a lot to do with it too.
Where the vocal part ends up depends on the song... Some songs have the focal more prominent (louder) in the en mix and that makes it feel closer. Others mixed the focal part softer and makes it feel further away. Cutting the 2 - 4 K bands on your EQ also makes the voices seem further away.


----------



## derickveliz

Wesayso said:


> It's not only the speaker position with TA that determines the center image. Frequency response has a lot to do with it too.


My point is that by putting my cell-phone on speaker (on arrow 3) *Playing Pink Noise* I get a physical sense of where the center image would be. 

Then I go through the process of playing each frequency induvidually and *adjusting my EQ, Left & Right to match the location of the Pink Noise* played by my cell-phone.

I did it once this afternoon and works really good, after comparing my previous set up (Left & Right EQ by ear) improved the center image and I believe I can go further out one more time by *projecting the physical location of my Pink Noise source* to the left therefore placing the center image even further outside the windshield.

We'll see.

.


----------



## derickveliz

derickveliz said:


> I believe I can go further out one more time by *projecting the physical location of my Pink Noise source* to the left therefore placing the center image even further outside the windshield.
> 
> We'll see.
> 
> .


Well after trying and trying didn't work and I found out why!

*My right tweeter is not working at all! *

Trouble shout all the way down from the RCA to the amp and the signal at the wires, every thing was fine, my right tweeter is not working!


----------



## derickveliz

*So after contacting Hybrid Audio Technologies for help the Founder (Scott E. Buwalda) replies back withing 7 minutes...*

*That's is what I call "Costumer Support"*

Try that with *Pioneer* and/or *Hertz*! I've done it before and takes about 2 weeks to get a reply.


----------



## crazycody93

derickveliz said:


> *I wrote this in other thread, I thought it would be nice to have it handy here.*
> 
> 
> *Lets start with PLDs...*
> This is how PLDs work in my car, the example is on the Mids in kick area, the idea is you measure from left speaker to left ear, right speaker to right ear, then do the math. Do this in different positions, the smaller the result the better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Now when I was starting into this hobby I never understood what center image was,* I came up with this little exercise at home that you can try it too. This will help you to find that center image every body talks about:
> 
> Photo 1: Try to recreate the scene at home, the idea is that you stand right in the middle of the speakers, play a few songs of your choice.
> 
> Photo 2: You will feel that there is a 3rd speaker just above your head, like a phantom! that is the center image; most of the time would be the singer.
> 
> Give it a try!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Now the problem is when you are not in the center of the speakers (in our cars) so to recreate that phantom (center image) right in the center of your car from the Pilot side we try to work it out mechanically (smaller PLDs) then Time Alignment and Left+Right Equalization. The end result is a 3D-mentional feeling of each track, is like been at a concert or live music at a cafe, where you can tell where is the singer (most of the time in the center AKA center-image) where is the Piano, the guitar, etc; and you can even feel how big or small is the room. When you accomplish this you can say that you have a Solid Sound-Stage. * see image below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


So after reading through this thread, you have some incredible information, that i think is handy to anyone building a stereo. But i have aquestion on the staging. Is setting up the stage to be across the dash 'proper'? is that what people think it should be? the reason i ask is that i feel like i want the 'center' of the stage, to be directly in front of me. and thr right side, extend to about the passenger A piller, and the driver side, extend equally as far.

Is that just something to set up for my own taste? or would more people consider what you've described to be how it should be?


----------



## n_olympios

In most sq competitions, stage center is required to be at the center of the dash. I can understand your point of view because I too wanted it to be in front of me at some point. The problem is, this narrows the overall width a lot, or it makes it unproportionately wide at one side (passenger's side) and narrow at the other (driver's side) since it usually is, after all, limited by the position of the speakers. To use your own phrase, you can't make the driver's side extend equally to the other one because that would mean that its edge should be about a meter outside of the car. Not impossible in some cars, but certainly very difficult. 

Having it at the center of the dash makes everything good and symmetric, if you've done everything right that is.


----------



## crazycody93

Man, i was really hoping for a different answer  but i definitely understand it. I just want it to feel like your sitting center stage.


----------



## derickveliz

crazycody93 said:


> So after reading through this thread, you have some incredible information, that i think is handy to anyone building a stereo. But i have aquestion on the staging. Is setting up the stage to be across the dash 'proper'? is that what people think it should be? the reason i ask is that i feel like i want the 'center' of the stage, to be directly in front of me. and thr right side, extend to about the passenger A piller, and the driver side, extend equally as far.
> 
> Is that just something to set up for my own taste? or would more people consider what you've described to be how it should be?


1. *Thank you!* I hope it helps every body. At least to avoid the mistakes I've done LOL

*1. Staging...* I used to think the same way, "me in the center" and at the beginning I just didn't know what I was looking for, and never realized the wonderful *3Dimensional* aspect of the music.* (Haas effect)*

Once properly set up the center stage is in the *middle of the car* and depending on the car and your set up will be *placed 4 or 5 feet further away from you.*

The experience is unbelievable, *it's very natural and pleasant* even been on the left side, the feeling of been in another place but your car is very nice, what I mean is with a proper system reproduces the sound as it was recorded, e.i. studio, concert, etc. (also depends on the quality of the recordings for sure).

*Seen is believing, Sounds so real, I can feel the music.*.. are common sentences I heard about a proper SQ system..

I can move the center image in front of me, but it doesn't sounds right, like n_olympios wrote above _"it makes it unproportionately wide at one side (passenger's side) and narrow at the other (driver's side) since it usually is, after all, limited by the position of the speakers."_

I could get in touch of a good friend of mine he is in your area, maybe he could take you for a demo? or if you ever com to Massachusetts... you know I'll be around.

Let me know.

.


----------



## crazycody93

I would love tk get to hear a very nice system. If you dont mind and neither does he, i really want to know what i should be looking for. You can PM me the info on it, but j won't take away from your build thread, let's hear how it's going!


----------



## GavGT

Hey Derick, just dropped by to see how things have progressed. It's great that you are continuing to make improvements. My car is being stripped out ready for a new vehicle, and thanks mainly to this build i'm going to try my L3SE's in the kicks.

Great work!


----------



## derickveliz

crazycody93 said:


> I would love tk get to hear a very nice system. If you dont mind and neither does he, i really want to know what i should be looking for. You can PM me the info on it, but j won't take away from your build thread, let's hear how it's going!


I sent you a PM, this friend of mine *has been my mentor for 3 years* now, he also has been building a *SQ Yaris.*

.


----------



## derickveliz

GavGT said:


> Hey Derick, just dropped by to see how things have progressed. It's great that you are continuing to make improvements. My car is being stripped out ready for a new vehicle, and thanks mainly to this build i'm going to try my L3SE's in the kicks.
> 
> Great work!


Thanks GavGT, I'm sure you will enjoy your L3SE's. (what kind of new car?)

.


----------



## derickveliz

*A little bit about "CENTER IMAGE-STAGE WIDTH-STAGE HEIGHT Relative to Speaker Location!*










.


----------



## Mic10is

derickveliz said:


> *A little bit about "CENTER IMAGE-STAGE WIDTH-STAGE HEIGHT Relative to Speaker Location!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


in all those you could apply more delay and push the sound farther out
But nice image

Id be curious to hear your system sometime to see how accurately it portrays the picture as being perfectly symmetrical. its rare to hear a system that is perfectly symmetrical on each side.


----------



## derickveliz

Mic10is said:


> in all those you could apply more delay and push the sound farther out
> But nice image
> 
> Id be curious to hear your system sometime to see how accurately it portrays the picture as being perfectly symmetrical. its rare to hear a system that is perfectly symmetrical on each side.


*More delay... Yes that's what I do*, but that's further down the road with more tuning, this is just to share what I learned my self having all 3 scenarios in my car.

Are you referring to my Yaris with a symmetrical dashboard?

.


----------



## GavGT

derickveliz said:


> Thanks GavGT, I'm sure you will enjoy your L3SE's. (what kind of new car?)
> 
> .


Hi mate, it's a 2004 Honda accord. I currently have a bmw e34 with 6.5 inch midbass set deep into the kicks, and have my l3se in sail pods. No tweeters. I do competitions in the UK so hopefully my car won't suffer from rainbowing too much.


----------



## n_olympios

Mic10is said:


> in all those you could apply more delay and push the sound farther out


Blessed is he who needeth less delay.


----------



## derickveliz

*How much is "TOO MUCH BASS" for SQ?*

.


----------



## TheBetterMethod

If you have more bass potential, you're better off. It's so easy to turn bass down. Life sucks when you want to turn it up, but you can't.


----------



## derickveliz

TheBetterMethod said:


> If you have more bass potential, you're better off. It's so easy to turn bass down. Life sucks when you want to turn it up, but you can't.


Let me put it this way... I'm not talking about power or SPL but *"Reference" *

Every body can shake the ground with a woofer + a vented box for example, I've been there before and it sounds really good but like 30-40 feet away from the car, inside the car is just not healthy. 

I can even bump my little i6SW and have the BASS of a song feel like a lot more than what the composer of the song intended to, *my search is where is that "line" that separates fantasy from reality? *

But I do understand that it's better to have more and slow down than trying to go fast without the horse power.

.


----------



## TheBetterMethod

I agree. Then again, some songs just aren't recorded with enough bass. Maybe it's something to do with me being a symphonic percussionist for 7 years. I like to hear the bass drum and low brass as it sounded from the back of the stage. That of course isn't necessarily how the composer intended it to sound. Sound is _very_ _very_ subjective.


----------



## derickveliz

TheBetterMethod said:


> If you have more bass potential, you're better off. It's so easy to turn bass down. Life sucks when you want to turn it up, but you can't.


Let me put it this way... I'm not talking about power or SPL but *"Reference" *

Every body can shake the ground with a woofer + a vented box for example, I've been there before and it sounds really good but like 30-40 feet away from the car, inside the car is just not healthy. 

I can even bump my little i6SW and have the BASS of a song feel like a lot more than what the composer of the song intended to, *my search is where is that "line" that separates fantasy from reality? *

But I do understand that it's better to have more and slow down than trying to go fast without the horse power.

.


----------



## SciPunk

Hey Derek, 
Just read this whole build thread and i am impressed with both your skill and your dedication to learning. I too drive a small Toyota based car (Scion xA) and we share many similar style parts. 

My system is very lack luster atm, as i show the car and audio was more of latter project after we got a majority of things done. Since it's a themed car it makes it more difficult to incorporate sq style build while maintaining the theme. 

I will reference this thread many times when it comes to sound deadening and placement as we have similar dashes tho my gauge cluster is a bit higher than yours. 

Btw i too live in Mass, so maybe some time i may be able to come out and hear your car. The 6.5" sub has me intrigued 

All the best!


----------



## derickveliz

SciPunk said:


> Hey Derek,
> Just read this whole build thread and i am impressed with both your skill and your dedication to learning. I too drive a small Toyota based car (Scion xA) and we share many similar style parts.
> 
> Btw i too live in Mass, so maybe some time i may be able to come out and hear your car. The 6.5" sub has me intrigued
> 
> All the best!


*That's awesome! Thanks*

I live closer than you think!

We are in Central America right now for vacations, but once we get back (mid Feb) you are more than welcome to check my little Yaris.



.


----------



## SciPunk

derickveliz said:


> *That's awesome! Thanks*
> 
> I live closer than you think!
> 
> We are in Central America right now for vacations, but once we get back (mid Feb) you are more than welcome to check my little Yaris.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Excellent! I hope you enjoy your vacation 

Hopefully by the time you get back i'll be over this weird cough i got... it's really making doing anything suck....lol. 

Also accepted your friend request


----------



## asp87

derickveliz said:


> *How much is "TOO MUCH BASS" for SQ?*
> 
> .


You've been in my car a few times... It seems that the general consensus is that mine has more low end than either yours or goodstuffs (but lacks in higher freq response and could use some imaging work). Is mine realistic or fantastic? Well, I know it's fantastic  but you know what I mean. Just food for thought to try to get you to where you are trying to go and to nail down what equipment might get you there.


----------



## HondAudio

Derick: what page has the part where you deadened the cowl?


----------



## derickveliz

asp87 said:


> You've been in my car a few times... It seems that the general consensus is that mine has more low end than either yours or goodstuffs (but lacks in higher freq response and could use some imaging work). Is mine realistic or fantastic? Well, I know it's fantastic  but you know what I mean. Just food for thought to try to get you to where you are trying to go and to nail down what equipment might get you there.


*The little i6SW grew up a lot after Right & Left EQ and tuning*, and I made a few tests with 10" woofers up front where at Max volume the 10" woofer excel the 6.5" woofer but feels overwhelm; at low, moderate and high volume *the 6.5" woofer had a much better Natural Bass* than the 10" at the same volume levels. 

*The key to my success is to keep the Bass up front and feel the Natural bass without feeling you are next to a woofer,* the 6.5 does it really nice, the 10" doesn't... so my next experiment is 2(6.5). 

Once I come back from vacations I will post my 10" experience with pictures and thoughts.

We should meet again, maybe early spring?

*Do you know how goodstuff did at the competitions last weekend?*

.


----------



## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> Derick: what page has the part where you deadened the cowl?


I believe is post 566 follow the LINK

I hope it helps.

.


----------



## fast4door

awesome thread!!!


----------



## derickveliz

fast4door said:


> awesome thread!!!


*Thank you,*

I'll keep it rolling!

.


----------



## derickveliz

*I'm back!*

The blizzard gave me another 2 days of vacations!


----------



## SciPunk

derickveliz said:


> *I'm back!*
> 
> The blizzard gave me another 2 days of vacations!


Welcome back! Hope you had a good time! Now get to work


----------



## derickveliz

SciPunk said:


> Welcome back! Hope you had a good time! Now get to work


*Thanks!

My "to do" list:*

1.- re-wire left door speaker, window got the wire.

2.- re-install right new tweeter

3.- finish pillars mod

4.- build box for 2nd woofer.

5.- many many details (the never ending story) and of course more tuning.


----------



## SciPunk

We will have to talk tweeter placement when we meet up, i might move mine but they seem ok in the sails?


----------



## derickveliz

SciPunk said:


> We will have to talk tweeter placement when we meet up, i might move mine but they seem ok in the sails?


I like tweeter at sails, good width (wider stage) and good height, but it's all relative to the distance from your ears to each tweeter. the further out and spread apart the better. 

It's all about giving up some thing for some thing else.

.


----------



## GavGT

Hi Derick, good so see you're still finding improvements to be made. 

One thing I'd like to know, I see your nearest mid is angled so that the direct sound comes from a similar axis. While this helps to keep the frequency response similar from the direct sound, I'm interested in how the different angle makes one side interact with it's environment differently to the other. Any thoughts?

I'm just about to put L3SE into the kicks of my accord.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## cyrusthevirus23

looks great i never though anyone would put a setup in a yaris


----------



## derickveliz

GavGT said:


> Hi Derick, good so see you're still finding improvements to be made.
> 
> One thing I'd like to know, I see your nearest mid is angled so that the direct sound comes from a similar axis. While this helps to keep the frequency response similar from the direct sound, I'm interested in how the different angle makes one side interact with it's environment differently to the other. Any thoughts?
> 
> I'm just about to put L3SE into the kicks of my accord.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


*Yes, the idea is to have the same off-axis response from both speakers.*
From driving position speakers look the same. 
(Note: the left speaker is *flush with the chassis*)

I'm not an expert to tell you how they interact one side to the other side, to me...
what only matters is *the shortest distance to my ears "from each speaker".* 
That I'm going to delay in the process of Time/alignment + Left & Right EQ takes care of the rest.

Every thing else I try to treat almost every surface with foam or any other material that absorbs sound, 
like in a theater where you try to avoid any kind of hard/solid material to prevent reflections. 

:drummer:*L3SE cool! good choice.*:thumbsup:


.


----------



## derickveliz

cyrusthevirus23 said:


> looks great i never though anyone would put a setup in a yaris


*Thank you,*

Just think about it... 

A car that lets you have left tweeter on a-pillars *48 inches* from left ear...

*Symmetrical* and low dashboard...

Left kick is *54 inches* away from left ear

I put a *small subwoofer* in the passenger foot-well and a big 6'-5" guy still sits comfortable. 

... I know everybody is looking for a tape measurement now... 



and did I forget to say *I get 43 MPG?*


.


----------



## derickveliz

derickveliz said:


> *The little i6SW
> I made a few tests with 10" woofers up front where at Max volume the 10" woofer excel the 6.5" woofer but feels overwhelm; at low, moderate and high volume the 6.5" woofer had a much better Natural Bass than the 10" at the same volume levels.
> 
> The key to my success is to keep the Bass up front and feel the Natural bass without feeling you are next to a woofer, the 6.5 does it really nice, the 10" doesn't... so my next experiment is 2(6.5).
> 
> Once I come back from vacations I will post my 10" experience with pictures and thoughts.
> 
> 
> .*


*

i6SW hold on tight! here it comes a 14 Years old 10" solo-baric!

I know this is not apples to apples, but I feel the need to compare and experiment. so here is my test box! 

- Same power and source
- Box is twice as big or about the same as (2)i6SW that I'm going to try later on.
- 10" sealed box against 6.5" vented box
- 14 years of technology 




































*


----------



## derickveliz

*I'm Impressed by...*

*How good the little i6SW is!* versus the Solo-B 10"!



.


----------



## derickveliz

*i6SW against Solo-Baric 10D - Power was 400 watts RMS*



Enclosure *i6SW wins*, it's almost half of the Solo-10 (.35cf vrs .66cuf)

In Car SPL goes for the *Solo-10,* Yes the bigger the better, but my ears hurt and honestly I just couldn't listen for my 3 hours commute and enjoy my music the way I do with the i6SW, in other words the Solo-10 for me is *overwhelming *


Tonal balance: *if the volume is from Low - Moderate - to High...* the i6SW it's my favorite, now if I cranck it all the way up to MAX VOLUMEN... the Solo-10 WINS. (max volume is 2 or 3 clicks before distortion)

Low frequency extension *At low-Moderate volume the i6SW* takes the lead, At Max Volume the *Solo-10 wins*

Clarity at high volume (high volume not max volume) the i6SW takes the lead.

Clarity at low volume, there is some thing magical about the i6SW that makes me smile.

Impact - Both are good

Overall sound quality - 2 thumbs up for the i6SW! I don't know what it is, maybe because it fires forward deep into the fire wall, but *the big difference is the i6SW hits my chest,* and the Solo-10 hits my ears and my head. 


If Had to buy one between these 2, I wouldn't think twice... *the i6SW is the ONE!*

*Next step!... *lets plan on doing a second box for a second i6SW and see/feel/hear what happens! 

The never ending story!


----------



## itsvel06

I couldnt keep myself from asking. Is something like this doable in your install?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1822272-post11.html


----------



## derickveliz

itsvel06 said:


> I couldnt keep myself from asking. Is something like this doable in your install?
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1822272-post11.html


Wow! lots of reading and good information, thank you, (I guess I need to keep learning)... 
but I believe they are talking about having the sub in the trunk and making the BASS feel like it's coming from the Front!

That... I took care. *My Bass it's coming from the Front very Natural. *

I know we all want' more... and more! Thanks for the information, I will look more into that.

*Knowledge is Power*

Thanks

.


----------



## derickveliz

*I'm going to have to take the L1v2 Tweeters from my signature...*

Bump.

.


----------



## GavGT

How come?


----------



## goodstuff

derickveliz said:


> *I'm going to have to take the L1v2 Tweeters from my signature...*
> 
> Bump.
> 
> .


oh noes?


----------



## derickveliz

GavGT said:


> How come?


Well, every thing started when I sent my right tweeter for replacement... I put an old big chunky tweeter that I had bouncing in the drawer, as a temporary replacement while the new L1v2 arrives.

The first thing I noticed was that it was very harsh compare to the L1v2, but *the P99 HU gives me good tools to tone the tweeter down, to a point where there was no difference in sound, stage, everything.
*
Then in other forum I got into the conversation that with proper tuning expensive and not so expensive speakers you can get almost the same results.

*That's what triggers me to do an experiment,* I had 2 old small tweeters from a component set that I had 14 years ago, these little tiny tweeters from Pioneer that I temporary installed replacing the L1v2's; to elaborate and see if I could make the Pioneer tweeters with proper tuning sound the same as the L1v2. 

*Note: since my x-over points are high (HPF is around 8-10kHz) I knew the Pioneer Tweeters will stand the high end L1v2, what I'm trying to say is that the L1v2 will out perform the Pioneer Tweeters if I cross them lower (lets say HPF at around 4-6.3 kHz).*
That is what you pay in a Tweeter, how low it can go. But since I'm above 8 kHz then lets continue with the test...

The Pioneer Tweeters are much smaller and have a round shape, kind of a small sphere (Diffractions any one?) and the mounting shape aloud me to move them around for testing. But another thing I notice on the Pioneer Tweeters is that they like to play on Axis,

I had the L1v2s very far up front and as far from each other physically possible into the a-pillars to get the most for "Depth and Width" 
The Pioneer Tweeters been smaller I was able to tuck next to the sail panel, this actually had them physically farther apart from each other but closer to my ears, as a result a gain in "Width" but turning down a little bit in "Depth"

*I knew I could tune down and make the Tweeters feel that they are further forward (more Depth) but not much in the "Width" department, so I went with the Pioneer Tweeters near the sail panel, as far from each other to promote "Width".*

Then started tuning, to my surprise it was much easier than when the tweeters where at the a-pillars, I'm assuming because all the windshield reflections, instead of the clear direct path from new location to my ears. (talk about acoustics and reflexions out of glass and hard surfaces).

*The end result was a wider stage "Width" and a little less in "Depth" but I did like my stage wider for sure.*

*Going back to the test!*
I made these little 14 years old Pioneer Tweeters sound as good as the L1v2s and because been smaller I was able to locate them farther apart from each other, creating a wider stage! and no! I'm not going to put back the L1v2s I got a better stage with the little Pioneer Tweeters!

*I know "Tuning" is very powerful.*

.


----------



## goodstuff

I couldn't bring myself to tell you that I did not really like your tweeters off axis back when I heard them, but I am glad you moved the tweeters,:blush: .


----------



## papasin

derickveliz said:


> I know "Tuning" *and "install"* is very powerful.


Corrected . Many have proven this over and over again here and have witnessed it first hand. As you have pointed out good gear helps depending on the application, but a good tune and install outweighs equipment...not to say that having good equipment can't help. I'd say 40/40/20 IMHO in level of importance (tune/install/equipment). My $0.02 .


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> I couldn't bring myself to tell you that I did not really like your tweeters off axis back when I heard them, but I am glad you moved the tweeters,:blush: .


I though you didn't like my system at all, jj 

D.


----------



## derickveliz

papasin said:


> Corrected . Many have proven this over and over again here and have witnessed it first hand. As you have pointed out good gear helps depending on the application, but a good tune and install outweighs equipment...not to say that having good equipment can't help. I'd say 40/40/20 IMHO in level of importance (tune/install/equipment). My $0.02 .


*Agree!!! x 2* :thumbsup: good call, correction approved. 


.


----------



## goodstuff

derickveliz said:


> I though you didn't like my system at all, jj
> 
> D.


It did things mine could not. I want to hear it again soon though.


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> It did things mine could not. I want to hear it again soon though.


*You know you are more than welcome,* after all you have been the "SQ Meet organizer for the North East".

.


----------



## 49konvict

Amazing build. This has taught me a lot about imaging and the importance of t/a and tuning. Going to try my tweets in spheres like you did. This has given me so many ideas, I just wish I had the time or money to experiment more.


----------



## goodstuff

49konvict said:


> Amazing build. This has taught me a lot about imaging and the importance of t/a and tuning. Going to try my tweets in spheres like you did. This has given me so many ideas, I just wish I had the time or money to experiment more.


Here is more info on the use of spheres.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...cussion/65061-improve-your-soundstage-$2.html


----------



## derickveliz

49konvict said:


> Amazing build. This has taught me a lot about imaging and the importance of t/a and tuning. Going to try my tweets in spheres like you did. This has given me so many ideas, I just wish I had the time or money to experiment more.


*Thank you 49konvict, *I wish I had more time and money too! jj 




goodstuff said:


> Here is more info on the use of spheres.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...cussion/65061-improve-your-soundstage-$2.html


*That thread was one of my inspirations when I started my build.*

.


----------



## derickveliz

*A Guru question...* 

I've notice that early in the morning the Center Image is slightly to the left and when I come back at the end of the day the Center Image goes back to the center.

It's very little but I can tell the difference and I tweak it back and forth on the road to bring it back exactly to the center...

*Is this due to weather conditions, (Humidity, Pressure, Temperature, etc)?*

I know some songs have the center image off by a little but I've seen this on specific tracks with Center Image right on center.

Just curious... I'm guessing the atmospheric conditions affect physical aspects of the speakers and so on.

or

My ears and my way of listening changes through the day/night? 

D.


----------



## papasin

Happens to me too. What an SQ champion told me is this likely has to do with the chips used on the processor. Some are not as impervious to temperature swings and therefore as it "heats up" the time alignment is off by a smidge. I have a couple presets for a cool processor and a "warmed up" one .


----------



## goodstuff

The processor I just sold had time alignment temperature compensation.


----------



## derickveliz

papasin said:


> Happens to me too. What an SQ champion told me is this likely has to do with the chips used on the processor. Some are not as impervious to temperature swings and therefore as it "heats up" the time alignment is off by a smidge. I have a couple presets for a cool processor and a "warmed up" one .


Good to know, I though I was going crazy! :laugh:

.


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> The processor I just sold had time alignment temperature compensation.


Interesting...:surprised:


.


----------



## goodstuff

derickveliz said:


> Interesting...:surprised:
> 
> 
> .


Also your sounddeadener does not work as well when it's cold. 

This image is from the cascade audio engineering website.


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> Also your sounddeadener does not work as well when it's cold.


Goodstuff you and I have similar deadener systems, did you notice this in your car, my guess is that's why I complain so much about snow tires lol

.


----------



## goodstuff

Yes. Think about what happens to rubber when it's cold... It gets hard....hence why it does not work as good.


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> Yes. Think about what happens to rubber when it's cold... It gets hard....hence why it does not work as good.


I dislike this weather, I'm on for global warming *LOL* 


.


----------



## n_olympios

It happens to me too when I've not cleaned my ears properly in the morning. 

I'm joking, in case anyone wonders. 



goodstuff said:


> The processor I just sold had time alignment temperature compensation.


Rane?


----------



## goodstuff

n_olympios said:


> It happens to me too when I've not cleaned my ears properly in the morning.
> 
> I'm joking, in case anyone wonders.
> 
> 
> 
> Rane?


Behringer DCX2496

Does the rane do that?


----------



## derickveliz

*You don't want to know... *

Me screwing up with the Auto T/A and EQ in my HU.... 

 *"Everything is GONE"* 

I had to start from scratch... 2 days later I'm where I was! *and beyond... even better...* :thumbsup: :thumbup:

The Yaris is getting very intimidating... :drummer:

Even the RTA from my phone looks much better...










.


----------



## Wy2quiet

I am lost as to how you have a strong center image, and great stage height, along with equal L&R responses with the mids mounted SO DIFFERENTLY (in terms of angle and dispersion patterns). Your mid's are beaming, and therefore the drivers side along with being blocked by your leg and causing reflections, is just a disaster to me. 
Your first setup with both mids on-axis would seem to me to be the best setup, wouldn't you think?

Tuning ability is great and can correct variations, however I have as much tuning ability as humanly possible and it just is a nightmare to correct speaker angle differences. I mean really think about listening in your home to one speaker 70* off axis right beside you and another to your right further away and only at 15-25*. I don't see how that can get great sound.


----------



## derickveliz

*@ Wy2quiet:*

*I hope I won't confuse you more and if there is some thing you know and I don't know and/or I'm incorrect I would appreciate you share with us. I'm all ways open to learn from my mistakes.*


1.- in my install speakers are not installed symmetrically because I'm not sitting in the middle of the car, so there for... from pilots side both Mids are equally off-axis angle towards my ears. If I take a picture from the sweet spot looking at each Mid, you'll see the same angle.

2.- what really matters in my system is a straight path between Left Mid to Left Ear and Right Mid to Right Ear as long as my left leg is not blocking the Left path Image and stage are there.

3.- my first set up with spheres would be my choice if I was going to compete in the car audio industry, but I wanted to get the most of my install. For example if a big guy (bigger than me) sits in the pilots side and his ears are above sweet spot and his big left leg+foot are blocking the straight path between Left Mid and Left ear the Stage and center image will shift to the Right. (I've been there)

3.1.- With my first set up I can't accomplish a stage as wide and deep as I have right now.

4.- Home audio is so different than Car audio

5.- Again... both Mids are aimed at my ears with the same off-axis response, same angle. 

6.- Reflections, yes we get a lot of reflections in a car, specially with windshield and windows. That is why I have so much absorbent material (Foam) under the Dash Board and around the Mids, Think like a Theater... Acoustically treated. When I had the Mids in the a-pillars reflections where a bigger issue due to all the Glass around them.






*This is the Right Mid in the kick area next to the Bass in door EOM locations, yes sits flush with the chassis end result is about 30 degrees towards my Right Ear:*













*This is my Left Mid, angled towards Left ear at almost 30 degrees Towards left ear:*



*Right Mid and Right Bass in the OEM door location:*











*Tweeter in spheres next to sail panels:*


----------



## derickveliz

And one picture from the outside even though sounds much better inside jj


----------



## Wy2quiet

I read back what I wrote and I think it looked at little flippant and rude, which is totally not what I meant to write. I am more curious and willing to learn myself more than anything. 

I understand now what you are saying, I didn't know your mids were angled. It makes more sense now, however I still do wonder, are you crossing the drivers before/after beaming?

I agree home audio is much different than Car audio. However in my mind I just see the most simple setup that requires the LEAST amount of DSP to achieve depth, width and imaging as being the ideal option. I have EQ'd to my hearts content SO many times with my mids down in the doors playing to 2800 and the tweets 2800+ from the sails, and it just doesn't work great for me. 

I guess what I am asking is what made you want to change from the dash? Did you hear another car that made you question your install?


----------



## ecbmxer

Question for you. Being that your mids are decently off axis and running up to 8-10kHz, have you evaluated any beaming issues compared to running them lower and having the tweeters take over at a lower frequency to avoid narrowing dispersion at the higher frequencies? Just curious because this is something that I am trying to evaluate when choosing a crossover point for my mid to tweeters since I will have to run them passive until I can get an 8ch processor. Seeing your mids in the kicks like that has definitely inspired me to at least test it out in my install! (although I really should keep the mids and tweets very close since they will share time alignment)


----------



## derickveliz

Wy2quiet said:


> I read back what I wrote and I think it looked at little flippant and rude, which is totally not what I meant to write. I am more curious and willing to learn myself more than anything.
> 
> I understand now what you are saying, I didn't know your mids were angled. It makes more sense now, however I still do wonder, are you crossing the drivers before/after beaming?


No problem, we are all learning from each other.

_-"are you crossing the drivers before/after beaming?"_

*What are you trying to say here? Beaming is similar to the Doppler effect, regards the axis aiming and distance to the ear, and it can be compensated with crossover and EQ adjustments.

I'm a little naive with all these terminologies but no Beaming in my system, please.*

_-"the most simple setup that requires the LEAST amount of DSP"_

*I can only say... I can't live without been able of: 

4 way network 
Speaker's Levels
Slopes
Phase
Time Alignment 
L/R Independent 31-Band Digital Equalizer
and the remote control is a must for me, since I can't reach the HU without moving from the sweet spot.

Without all these elements I feel vulnerable and incompetent to make my system sound as good as it sounds.*


_-"what made you want to change from the dash? Did you hear another car that made you question your install?"_

*No never.
I'm happy to say that every car I had the chance to get a Demo has never pleased my ears as good as mine does.

and this is how I got there:

1.-Trial and Error

2.-My desire to get the most of my install*

.


----------



## derickveliz

ecbmxer said:


> Question for you. Being that your mids are decently off axis and running up to 8-10kHz, have you evaluated any beaming issues compared to running them lower and having the tweeters take over at a lower frequency to avoid narrowing dispersion at the higher frequencies? Just curious because this is something that I am trying to evaluate when choosing a crossover point for my mid to tweeters since I will have to run them passive until I can get an 8ch processor. Seeing your mids in the kicks like that has definitely inspired me to at least test it out in my install! (although I really should keep the mids and tweets very close since they will share time alignment)



*Got some news... *

After filling the inside of the dash with "LOTS" of Foam and added foam to a bunch of flat hard surfaces near the Mids the x-overs change a little bit, with all that absorbing material high frequencies from the Mids got absorbed (this means that I was getting lots of reflections even down in the kick area, now...

just imagine all the reflections you get with the windshield and windows, 
as an exercise just try to play your music with all your windows down!

so the Tweets had to compensate:

*My Mids went down to 5 kHz and Tweeters pick up at 6.3 kHz*

Choosing a x-over point is not a matter on how it works for others, you got to try it and get the feeling, every car is different.

* Honestly I don't even look at numbers anymore, I just go with what sounds better for my ears.*

If you are going to run passive, you should keep them as close as possible.


.


----------



## ecbmxer

Yea, I agree crossover points have to be chosen on a case by case basis. I was just curious on your opinion on the tradeoff between keeping as much info coming from your mids as possible, albeit with beaming at the top end, vs trying to keep them playing only up to near their beaming point.

In my car, there is definitely a big difference with the windows down vs up. The way I have my mids aimed, they rely on window reflections a lot I think...which probably isn't good. I'm going to see how mids in the kicks sounds to me though. 

Keep up the good work!


----------



## HondAudio

Derick:

When you put the CLD and MLV inside the cowl to block engine noise, did you give any thought to putting metallic tape on the engine-side of the cowl metal to block a little bit of extra heat? You probably know what I mean - it's a very thin metal tape, almost like mylar?


----------



## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> Derick:
> 
> When you put the CLD and MLV inside the cowl to block engine noise, did you give any thought to putting metallic tape on the engine-side of the cowl metal to block a little bit of extra heat? You probably know what I mean - it's a very thin metal tape, almost like mylar?


*Not only there but in lots of other areas; but I went with a heavier layer of Heat Barrier* 

(in a hot summer day it gets pretty intensive heat specially in traffic)





















.


----------



## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


> *Not only there but in lots of other areas; but I went with a heavier layer of Heat Barrier*
> 
> (in a hot summer day it gets pretty intensive heat specially in traffic)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


What made you choose this one other over the "usual" car audio manufacturers? Other than price... 

Kelvin


----------



## derickveliz

subwoofery said:


> What made you choose this one other over the "usual" car audio manufacturers? Other than price...
> 
> Kelvin


When I was doing the floor, I noticed that the exhaust made the floor so "HOT" along it's path, all it's way to the rear, back then my friend Don S. from Sound Deadener Showdown, suggested me to try it out. And I did.

When I was doing the cowl I had a bunch of leftovers...

Works really good, and is not expensive

D.


----------



## subwoofery

derickveliz said:


> When I was doing the floor, I noticed that the exhaust made the floor so "HOT" along it's path, all it's way to the rear, back then my friend Don S. from Sound Deadener Showdown, suggested me to try it out. And I did.
> 
> When I was doing the cowl I had a bunch of leftovers...
> 
> Works really good, and is not expensive
> 
> D.


Will keep that in mind when I'll do my car then, thx. :thumbsup: 

Kelvin


----------



## Wesayso

And you can use staples to keep it in place .


----------



## HondAudio

I was just talking about this tape:

Reflectix 2 in. x 30 ft. Reflective Foil Tape-FT210 at The Home Depot

Ironically, it's the kind of tape used to connect the "foil bubble wrap" stuff you used!


----------



## goodstuff

Oh I am jealous of your heat barrier....Why didn't I think of that, lol.


----------



## derickveliz

*Ok, so what I came through takes my system to a much better stage, 
the issue that I'm trying to resolve it's an issue related to my Yaris and my System, 
so it probably won't apply to other installs.* but here we go....


So I was looking for a "WOW" factor in my system, first I thought adding a second sub would do it, 
but not really if I wanted to keep with Sound Quality and not starting fall into SPL (sound pressure level) I still would like to try a 2nd woofer in the near future.

After attending the SQ competitions in NY, a guy who listened to my system said... "some tuning is need it" 
and I think he said the word "ques" or some thing like that.. 

For a better understanding he was referring to the female voice followed by a "ppsssst" at the end of some words from the song coming from the female voice, 
kind of like you could tell the location of the female voice on the stage but at the end it drags to the left or right up and/or down. 

*So after this conversation I was really challenged on how to take care of this. 
He said tuning and x-over points but I was sure that something else was going on!*

D.


----------



## derickveliz

*So I found the what could be the "WOW" factor...*

as mentioned above I found issues in my system that was or is not letting me have a good stage:

One day in my regular tuning session going through the frequencies and trying to center the image with the EQ I got stuck in a particular frequency... according to my Technic *I play a Frequency into the Mids and Tweeters and with the Right & Left EQ I move up and down until I hear/feel the sound in the center of the stage* (or at least where I feel it should be) but at some point...

I got stuck! it didn't matter how much I input I had on the EQ* the noise was still hitting my LEFT ear no matter what!* I started blocking the LEFT Tweeter with my hand thinking that this was the reason I was hearing the signal in my LEFT ear, but nothing...

*By accident I moved my RIGHT hand* up and down when I notice the signal fades away, "What's going on????" so I found out that the RIGHT Mid has a straight hit directly into the LEFT window and bounces back to my LEFT ear... 

Later on I found the same issue with the LEFT Mid a straight path going between my legs and the bottom of the dashboard hitting the RIGHT window and then reflecting the signal to my Right ear.

I spoke with my brother who studies music in NY he understood the issue right away saying "First Reflection"!

I'll try to draw it later for better understanding!


D.


----------



## derickveliz

derickveliz said:


> *So I found the what could be the "WOW" factor...*
> 
> I'll try to draw it later for better understanding!


Image 1:











Image 2:











.


----------



## derickveliz

The temporary fix! 

or should I say "taking care of some issues"

*After doing this dirty improvised fix and some light tuning the stage gets a "WOW" factor!*

Very solid, localizing vocals and instruments in the stage is *fantastic!*













*So now comes the Design part! and how I'm going to address this issue in a proper way, I have some ideas! 
stay tuned!*

.


----------



## req

i have some ideas too.

if you want to hear mine, shoot me a pm - because i feel that this is a huge obstacle for the car enviornment.


----------



## Blue Chip

Derick, your yaris has been a true inspiration to me and I wanted to thank you for explaining your finds to us in a such a clear manner. Ive learned a lot!

I wanted to double-check if i understand correctly.

Did the sound improve WITH the middle console blocking the reflective path or WITHOUT?

Why i ask is that there has been a counter-intuitive advice here previously which has recommended to aim tweeters exactly the way you showed on the pictures which i understand you found to be wrong.


----------



## derickveliz

Blue Chip said:


> Derick, your yaris has been a true inspiration to me and I wanted to thank you for explaining your finds to us in a such a clear manner. Ive learned a lot!
> 
> I wanted to double-check if i understand correctly.
> 
> 1.-Did the sound improve WITH the middle console blocking the reflective path or WITHOUT?
> 
> 2.-Why i ask is that there has been a counter-intuitive advice here previously which has recommended to aim tweeters exactly the way you showed on the pictures which i understand you found to be wrong.


*Thank you,

1.-WITH! blocking the path!

2.-where? what picture? my tweeters?*



.


----------



## GavGT

I think what Blue Chip means, is there has been advice given before that recommends aiming the tweeters to a point on the opposite side window so that it reflects into the ear. While this may be ok (never tried it) for tweeters, i wouldnt recommend it for mids. You want as little crosstalk as possible.


----------



## derickveliz

GavGT said:


> I think what Blue Chip means, is there has been advice given before that recommends aiming the tweeters to a point on the opposite side window so that it reflects into the ear. While this may be ok (never tried it) for tweeters, i wouldnt recommend it for mids. You want as little crosstalk as possible.


*I Agree!

I've seen that Technic but haven't tried it either.

Yes I'm talking about my Mids.*

.


----------



## KRAZYK

Just went through all 31 pages.. really has changed the way I think of car audio.. I have alot to learn.


----------



## derickveliz

KRAZYK said:


> Just went through all 31 pages.. really has changed the way I think of car audio.. I have alot to learn.


For me it's been a learning process of almost 4 years now.

and I'm sure that there is more out there.


.


----------



## Hispls

Dear God. You're still not "done" with this yet?


Not like I'm one to talk. I'm changing something constantly myself.

Anyway, I found this thread looking for a recent "northeast meetup" if anything is happening.

I did want to mention that New England SPL has been doing SQ category in most of his shows, and most have had a few people sign up. I'd really like to see some of you guys at some events. Really I don't care so much about competing myself, but it's a good excuse to get out and hang out with a nice crew of audio enthusiasts. I pay the 20$ and compete just to support the people who organize the shows.

If you're in touch with any northeast guys the Sanford Sound bikini carwash show is one of the biggest in the northeast and is always a really big car/audio show. Well worth the trip up to southern Maine. 

If there's any other meetups happening please email me at (my username)@Comcast.net I don't check this board much anymore but would definitely travel to meet up with some guys.


----------



## goodstuff

Hispls said:


> Dear God. You're still not "done" with this yet?
> 
> 
> Not like I'm one to talk. I'm changing something constantly myself.
> 
> Anyway, I found this thread looking for a recent "northeast meetup" if anything is happening.
> 
> I did want to mention that New England SPL has been doing SQ category in most of his shows, and most have had a few people sign up. I'd really like to see some of you guys at some events. Really I don't care so much about competing myself, but it's a good excuse to get out and hang out with a nice crew of audio enthusiasts. I pay the 20$ and compete just to support the people who organize the shows.
> 
> If you're in touch with any northeast guys the Sanford Sound bikini carwash show is one of the biggest in the northeast and is always a really big car/audio show. Well worth the trip up to southern Maine.
> 
> If there's any other meetups happening please email me at (my username)@Comcast.net I don't check this board much anymore but would definitely travel to meet up with some guys.


Sorry for the thread jack Derick...

Hi Jon. I have been competing in Iasca and it is taking up all my free time this summer, that is why I have not planned anymore meet and greets. 
If I see a window of time where I can get something going then I will try but right now I have things going on untill the beginning of November. 
What organization is Sanford Sound competing under (meca, iasca, etc) or do they do their own thing? 

P.s: I'm not done either.....I'd lie and say I'm close but...... no. Laughs.


----------



## req

so this is my idea.

for this to work you need these things;

2 wideband speakers - to play from 300hz~5000hz or whatever - the bandpass would need to be played with.
2 small microphones - for the same bandwith the speakers will work
a way to push the speakers with the microphones in 180* out of phase

put the speakers in the B pillars as close to the reflection point as possible maybe near your shoulder - this will need to be played with. put the mic on the door or something, as close to the reflection on axis with the speaker - this will need to be played with.

the mic will pick up the reflection information and feed it 180* out of phase to the speaker and it will be an active noise canceling product. just loud enough to tame the reflection and cancel it out.

thoughts?


----------



## derickveliz

req said:


> so this is my idea.
> 
> for this to work you need these things;
> 
> 2 wideband speakers - to play from 300hz~5000hz or whatever - the bandpass would need to be played with.
> 2 small microphones - for the same bandwith the speakers will work
> a way to push the speakers with the microphones in 180* out of phase
> 
> put the speakers in the B pillars as close to the reflection point as possible maybe near your shoulder - this will need to be played with. put the mic on the door or something, as close to the reflection on axis with the speaker - this will need to be played with.
> 
> the mic will pick up the reflection information and feed it 180* out of phase to the speaker and it will be an active noise canceling product. just loud enough to tame the reflection and cancel it out.
> 
> thoughts?




How come I didn't think about something like this? That's an awesome way to approach the issue, I like it; very technologically and creative, but... lol

I'm too lazy to do all that, my sweater solution is working great until I do something that isn't that improvised.

.


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> Sorry for the thread jack Derick...
> 
> Hi Jon. I have been competing in Iasca and it is taking up all my free time this summer, that is why I have not planned anymore meet and greets.
> If I see a window of time where I can get something going then I will try but right now I have things going on untill the beginning of November.
> What organization is Sanford Sound competing under (meca, iasca, etc) or do they do their own thing?
> 
> P.s: I'm not done either.....I'd lie and say I'm close but...... no. Laughs.


No problem good stuff,

I would like to do a Mini Meet here at home (everybody is welcome) I can park 6-8 cars in my drive way (more if we need to), maybe in the next 2 or 3 weeks, it would be a Saturday @ 3pm to 6pm, I'm 15 minutes of the intersection of Mass-Pike (I90) -- I84 and R20 near Sturbridge MA.

Let me know what Saturday works for you.

.


----------



## goodstuff

derickveliz said:


> No problem good stuff,
> 
> I would like to do a Mini Meet here at home (everybody is welcome) I can park 6-8 cars in my drive way (more if we need to), maybe in the next 2 or 3 weeks, it would be a Saturday @ 3pm to 6pm, I'm 15 minutes of the intersection of Mass-Pike (I90) -- I84 and R20 near Sturbridge MA.
> 
> Let me know what Saturday works for you.
> 
> .



Awesome.
Saturday, August 3rd is open for me. 
I am busy the next two Saturdays....well I guess I could make this Saturday (The 20th) but it would be tight. 
Let me know and I will try to get the word out....


----------



## bicycle_wreck

Just read through this entire thread. Very cool evolution of your system. I look forward to seeing more!


----------



## derickveliz

bicycle_wreck said:


> Just read through this entire thread. Very cool evolution of your system. I look forward to seeing more!


*Thank you, *

I really like the way your spheres for tweeters are looking, good job. I bet feels nice to have your dad work with you too.

.


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> Awesome.
> Saturday, August 3rd is open for me.
> I am busy the next two Saturdays....well I guess I could make this Saturday (The 20th) but it would be tight.
> Let me know and I will try to get the word out....


Looks like August 3rd would be, let me double check with my family and we can go forward.

Thanks goodstuff.

.


----------



## derickveliz

*Let my speakers breathe!!! I'm talking 63Hz - 160Hz...*

After going through the experience in meca and iasca I got some good feedback from the judges, one that called my attention was...

-Your Lows (HAT L6 in doors) sound like if you put a piece of cloth over. And you know what? yes the sound wasn't perfect, so I start digging about it, tuning, x-over points R+L EQ and more tuning until I got them a little better but on the shy side.

-At high volume I could tell something wasn't right, and I was getting a rattle once in awhile, I checked the Baffles... very solid, I checked the Deadening in the doors... Overwhelming but I was still getting that little rattle at high volumes, I had to tame them down to prevent that ugly rattle I was getting, I'm not putting a huge amount of Watts but 175 watts to each driver go to go somewhere...

-One day I had my left hand rest on top of the window's controllers and I could feel some little pressure (wind?) coming out from the edges like a small vented box with a subwoofer ... mmm so it got me thinking "Is the internal air space of the door enough?"...

-These L6 are designed as "Free Air" AKA IB (infinite baffle). So maybe Yes! the door is not big enough for the L6's and that is the pressure I feel at high volume levels. Same as I did when I had my mids in spheres with not enough airspace.

-So lets them breathe! I made 3 big holes in each door next to an existing little hole that had a rubber cap sealing the door. See pictures below.





















.


----------



## req

is that metal?

i would paint that and vacuum up all the bits that went inside the door to prevent rusting.

are you going to put some kind of louvre panel over it?


1.5" Round Black Polypropylene Plastic Louver with Insect Screen System (Priced Per Bag of 6). Item# 1.5" PLBL-100 - VentMyHouse.com


----------



## goodstuff

derickveliz said:


> .


OH DAAAAYYYUUUMMM! Sereusbiznusholmes...

I would have tried one hole first , aperiodic venting or whatever it's called. I've never done it so no idea if it would be the right thing to use there.
I've actually thought about it myself in the bottom of the door since the rubber window seal at the top of my door panel leaks air and vibrates at high volume with certain music, but it would change my class in Iasca and I am also apprehensive about cutting like that.


----------



## ErinH

Derick,
Are those holes not effectively sealed again once you shut the door? Relative to the airspace behind the driver itself I just wouldn't expect those holes to really do anything. I see the seal is on the cabin side but the outer door skin itself has an overhang to mate with the rest of the body which still impedes flow. If its anything like typical car doors there's only a very, very small gap between the car body and that door skin. I understand that ultimately its exposed to free air but looking at things, I just can't imagine it *truly* makes enough difference to warrant that cutting. My $.02 of course. 

Also, make sure you paint or put a sealant on those holes at bare metal. A lot of water can get there (IIRC, most cars are designed to drain water through those areas). You definitely don't want it to rust. 

Not trying to be a doodoo head. Just trying to make sense of it. 

FWIW, something like this can be easily tested with an impedance sweep. I'd be happy to lend you my woofer tater for this if you want.


----------



## goodstuff

bikinpunk said:


> Derick,
> Are those holes not effectively sealed again once you shut the door? Relative to the airspace behind the driver itself I just wouldn't expect those holes to really do anything. I see the seal is on the cabin side but the outer door skin itself has an overhang to mate with the rest of the body which still impedes flow. If its anything like typical car doors there's only a very, very small gap between the car body and that door skin. I understand that ultimately its exposed to free air but looking at things, I just can't imagine it *truly* makes enough difference to warrant that cutting. My $.02 of course.
> 
> Also, make sure you paint or put a sealant on those holes at bare metal. A lot of water can get there (IIRC, most cars are designed to drain water through those areas). You definitely don't want it to rust.
> 
> Not trying to be a doodoo head. Just trying to make sense of it.
> 
> FWIW, something like this can be easily tested with an impedance sweep. I'd be happy to lend you my woofer tater for this if you want.


Mmmmm.....woofer taters. I like taters.


----------



## ErinH

Lol. Tester. Stupid auto correct!


----------



## Mic10is

Yeh, Im not sure I understand how that is going to work either. when the door closes it really isnt venting outside and altho there is some weather stripping there, Im not sure there wont be some air leakage that could get back into the interior.

and then pretty much what Erin said. Ive had very similar experiences as Erin, where if a vent isnt fairly close or right behind the speaker it really doesnt make an appreciable difference.


----------



## n_olympios

I think you guys are overthinking it. The holes are outside the rubber seals. There is space around them and no matter what, they do vent to the outside atmosphere. 

The best solution for IB would be many holes exactly behind the speaker, but that's not very easy to a car that wants to be driven daily, right?


----------



## ErinH

n_olympios said:


> I think you guys are overthinking it. The holes are outside the rubber seals. There is space around them and no matter what, they do vent to the outside atmosphere.
> 
> The best solution for IB would be many holes exactly behind the speaker, but that's not very easy to a car that wants to be driven daily, right?


Consider the size of he holes vs the space behind the driver. 

Also, consider just how little room there is between the door skin where the holes are cut and the body if the car. The holes aren't exactly venting freely. If anything, the car body is impeding the exit (assuming there'a any actual venting).


----------



## Mic10is

bikinpunk said:


> Consider the size of he holes vs the space behind the driver.
> 
> Also, consider just how little room there is between the door skin where the holes are cut and the body if the car. The holes aren't exactly venting freely. If anything, the car body is impeding the exit (assuming there'a any actual venting).


what he said


----------



## derickveliz

req said:


> is that metal?
> i would paint that and vacuum up all the bits that went inside the door to prevent rusting.
> are you going to put some kind of louvre panel over it?


Yes! it's metal and I'll follow up on your advice! thanks
yes I would like to fit some louvers in there.
Thanks again.

.


----------



## derickveliz

bikinpunk said:


> Derick,
> Are those holes not effectively sealed again once you shut the door? Relative to the airspace behind the driver itself I just wouldn't expect those holes to really do anything. I see the seal is on the cabin side but the outer door skin itself has an overhang to mate with the rest of the body which still impedes flow. If its anything like typical car doors there's only a very, very small gap between the car body and that door skin. I understand that ultimately its exposed to free air but looking at things, I just can't imagine it *truly* makes enough difference to warrant that cutting. My $.02 of course.
> 
> Also, make sure you paint or put a sealant on those holes at bare metal. A lot of water can get there (IIRC, most cars are designed to drain water through those areas). You definitely don't want it to rust.
> 
> Not trying to be a doodoo head. Just trying to make sense of it.
> 
> FWIW, something like this can be easily tested with an impedance sweep. I'd be happy to lend you my woofer tater for this if you want.



_"Are those holes not effectively sealed again once you shut the door?"_

*No they are not,* it's a Sedan 4 door, they shoot in between front and rear doors, there is a lot of free space there. There is free flow! I know for sure. I'll try to snap a couple of pictures tomorrow.

*Yes sealant must go there, I will.*

I tested the drain patter first with lots of rain and direct water after washing my car with soap (lots of bubbles) and that area keeps pretty much dry all the time.

What is a tater woofer? lol sorry sometimes I become so naive when I lack of knowledge and/but... how do I do that?

Thanks again I appreciate your comments.

.


----------



## derickveliz

n_olympios said:


> I think you guys are overthinking it. The holes are outside the rubber seals. There is space around them and no matter what, they do vent to the outside atmosphere.
> 
> The best solution for IB would be many holes exactly behind the speaker, but that's not very easy to a car that wants to be driven daily, right?


*Right!*

My wife told me I was crazy when she saw what I was doing. lol

.


----------



## derickveliz

Mic10is said:


> Yeh, Im not sure I understand how that is going to work either. when the door closes it really isnt venting outside and altho there is some weather stripping there, Im not sure there wont be some air leakage that could get back into the interior.
> 
> and then pretty much what Erin said. Ive had very similar experiences as Erin, where if a vent isnt fairly close or right behind the speaker it really doesnt make an appreciable difference.


One reason to have the vents there was the height! to prevent road noise, I rather have wind noise up there, after the vents I tested the noise level inside the cabin at highway speeds and there was no "new" noise coming from the outside, that way I could tell if there was going to be some air leakage back into the interior.

*I was waiting to write my results and impressions here but in this case the Yaris door and the new vents...*

*WORK GREAT!* 

.


----------



## goodstuff

derickveliz said:


> What is a tater woofer?
> Thanks again I appreciate your comments.
> 
> .


Sorry to confuse you Derick. Bikinipunk was offering to loan you his woofer TESTER, but he autocorrected it to TATER and I made fun of it. What's up with the meet? I am up for Aug 3rd.


----------



## ErinH

derickveliz said:


> _"Are those holes not effectively sealed again once you shut the door?"_
> 
> *No they are not,* it's a Sedan 4 door, they shoot in between front and rear doors, there is a lot of free space there. There is free flow! I know for sure. I'll try to snap a couple of pictures tomorrow.
> 
> *Yes sealant must go there, I will.*
> 
> I tested the drain patter first with lots of rain and direct water after washing my car with soap (lots of bubbles) and that area keeps pretty much dry all the time.
> 
> What is a tater woofer? lol sorry sometimes I become so naive when I lack of knowledge and/but... how do I do that?
> 
> Thanks again I appreciate your comments.
> 
> .


I'm basing my comment on the fact that my sedan 4-door is apparently nothing like your sedan. My sedan's b-pillar body is not a pass through to the rear door. No other car that I've noticed is. I'd think that would be an issue with rain for car mfg's but apparently yours isn't built the same way mine is:











If I were to cut holes in my door the way you did, they would be rendered ineffective. The reason is, the gap between my door and the car body is only millimeters. There'd be no effective way for any venting to occur. If anything, they'd make a tuned port of some sort. 

So, while your car may be wide open to vent through the body and to the rear doors like you say, I hope others whose cars do not will consider this before they cut holes all willy nilly.


----------



## req

erin and mic,

the yaris has a huge gap where the outer part of the forward door meets the aft door. the seal is where the jamb is. i agree that IB = better if the holes are close to the driver - but im sure this will relieve enough pressure so that its not going through the window seal or whatever he was having issues with.


----------



## ErinH

You're absolutely right. Still not sure I believe the difference was tied to those holes, though. The Qts and Vas are 0.5x @ ~0.5 cubes. A typical door, perfectly sealed would net you in the ball park of 2.5 to 3 cubes. So, in terms of airspace, those holes aren't effectively altering the Qtc. Now, what I could deem plausible is those holes somehow altering the impedance curve in some manner (ie; a port) that would result in an audible difference. 

Like I said, it's an educated guess. I don't have a beef with trying it. I'm just trying to relay that there are other potential reasons for the difference in sound (not excluding psychoacoustics, in all seriousness).


----------



## AccordUno

Interesting, Interesting. Not that I would do that, but definitely interesting..


----------



## req

agreed. i would not do it either, but i can understand why he would try - scares the crap out of me to be honest lol!

my next endavour is sealed door pods inside the stock door


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> What's up with the meet? I am up for Aug 3rd.


*Yes! * 

August 3rd it's a Saturday afternoon from 3 to 6

.


----------



## derickveliz

req said:


> agreed. i would not do it either, but i can understand why he would try - scares the crap out of me to be honest lol!
> 
> my next endavour is sealed door pods inside the stock door



*It's a trail and error, it's scary... yes! experimenting is fun though *

So I've been driving with the doors with holes for over 1K miles now

and I know when I screw it up, and I know how to accept when something is not good, like I did with my first
set of spheres in a-pillars and my second try with the Mids directly in the a-pillars I just did them over and over
looking for a wider deeper stage and better image

but...

*This time... if I had to do it again I would, the improvement is there:*

-I can crank the volume more without rattles

-I can crank the volume more without the L6's to make scary noises and/or distortion

-I can tell the difference, my music it's *like a BOLD text font*


What's next?

RTA... now that scares me more than cutting holes in the doors.

Any leads on where to start? 

Thanks


----------



## req

sure. 

REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software

sign up for the the forum, download ROOM EQ WIZARD. then go here and read what Erin explains;

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...44399-rta-walkthrough-usage-thread-video.html

for the price and package, this a great RTA you can buy without having to buy a USB phantom power mic preamp and all that stuff. you can certainly go ahead and get a mic+send it off to get a calibration file+phantom power preamp for cheaper, but it is much more cumbersome to handle and takes a while to get it together. this is an all-in-one package. USB right into your PC and its working. it comes with a calibration serial number, and you download the cal file right off the internet.

Dayton Audio OmniMic V2 Precision Audio Measurement System 390-792

i have it and it works just fine. basically from there on out, you plug it in, follow erins instructions linked above to get REW working with the mic. play pink noise (the disc that comes with the dayton mic has it if you dont want to download+burn or own an iasca CD), and point your mic all over the place and look at your graphs. it can be tedious, and you will see nodes and nulls that you cant fix with EQ that will drive you crazy - but its really a great tool to own if you are serious about audio in your car or home. you can get more into it than just a frequency response too, and erin goes into that a bit too. 

i will admit, the tuning part is the hardest for me. learning what you are supposed to be listening for and stuff is impossible to describe. its best to just get to some meet+greets or some SQ competitions and ask lots of questions.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...a/151157-nc-meet-pre-finals-practice-run.html



-andy


----------



## goodstuff

derickveliz said:


> *Yes! *
> 
> August 3rd it's a Saturday afternoon from 3 to 6
> 
> .


Ok to make a formal announcement here on Diyma in the events section?
Woot. epper:I will bring my Omnimic. I really have to get using it before it turns to dust.


----------



## derickveliz

req said:


> sure.
> 
> REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software
> 
> sign up for the the forum, download ROOM EQ WIZARD. then go here and read what Erin explains;
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...44399-rta-walkthrough-usage-thread-video.html
> 
> for the price and package, this a great RTA you can buy without having to buy a USB phantom power mic preamp and all that stuff. you can certainly go ahead and get a mic+send it off to get a calibration file+phantom power preamp for cheaper, but it is much more cumbersome to handle and takes a while to get it together. this is an all-in-one package. USB right into your PC and its working. it comes with a calibration serial number, and you download the cal file right off the internet.
> 
> Dayton Audio OmniMic V2 Precision Audio Measurement System 390-792
> 
> i have it and it works just fine. basically from there on out, you plug it in, follow erins instructions linked above to get REW working with the mic. play pink noise (the disc that comes with the dayton mic has it if you dont want to download+burn or own an iasca CD), and point your mic all over the place and look at your graphs. it can be tedious, and you will see nodes and nulls that you cant fix with EQ that will drive you crazy - but its really a great tool to own if you are serious about audio in your car or home. you can get more into it than just a frequency response too, and erin goes into that a bit too.
> 
> i will admit, the tuning part is the hardest for me. learning what you are supposed to be listening for and stuff is impossible to describe. its best to just get to some meet+greets or some SQ competitions and ask lots of questions.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...a/151157-nc-meet-pre-finals-practice-run.html
> 
> 
> 
> -andy


*Thank you, Thank you!

I guess I need some time to read and learn about it.

Thanks again!*


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> Ok to make a formal announcement here on Diyma in the events section?
> Woot. epper:I will bring my Omnimic. I really have to get using it before it turns to dust.


*Yes! its ok 

We are having a mini meet, send me or goodstuff a PM for details.*


Saturday 8-3-13 from 3pm to 6pm my place (15 minutes from Sturbridge MA) 

.


----------



## derickveliz

req said:


> sure.
> 
> REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software
> 
> sign up for the the forum, download ROOM EQ WIZARD. then go here and read what Erin explains;
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...44399-rta-walkthrough-usage-thread-video.html
> 
> for the price and package, this a great RTA you can buy without having to buy a USB phantom power mic preamp and all that stuff. you can certainly go ahead and get a mic+send it off to get a calibration file+phantom power preamp for cheaper, but it is much more cumbersome to handle and takes a while to get it together. this is an all-in-one package. USB right into your PC and its working. it comes with a calibration serial number, and you download the cal file right off the internet.
> 
> Dayton Audio OmniMic V2 Precision Audio Measurement System 390-792
> 
> i have it and it works just fine. basically from there on out, you plug it in, follow erins instructions linked above to get REW working with the mic. play pink noise (the disc that comes with the dayton mic has it if you dont want to download+burn or own an iasca CD), and point your mic all over the place and look at your graphs. it can be tedious, and you will see nodes and nulls that you cant fix with EQ that will drive you crazy - but its really a great tool to own if you are serious about audio in your car or home. you can get more into it than just a frequency response too, and erin goes into that a bit too.
> 
> i will admit, the tuning part is the hardest for me. learning what you are supposed to be listening for and stuff is impossible to describe. its best to just get to some meet+greets or some SQ competitions and ask lots of questions.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...a/151157-nc-meet-pre-finals-practice-run.html
> 
> 
> 
> -andy




*Andy...
I've been doing my home work:

Blue is Before, Yellow is after (1st round at RTA)*










*And this is how EQ end up:*










D.


----------



## req

nice 

the question is - how does it sound compared to before?

did you adjust time alignment AFTER you did the EQ? any EQ adjustments (and crossover\slope adjustments) will alter the phase.

awesome


----------



## derickveliz

req said:


> nice
> 
> the question is - how does it sound compared to before?
> 
> did you adjust time alignment AFTER you did the EQ? any EQ adjustments (and crossover\slope adjustments) will alter the phase.
> 
> awesome


I'm sorry it's taking me so long, but before I just write down with the *WOW! factor* I drove about 500 commute miles listening and evaluating the results!

Short answers: 
*-Sounds Much Better!* 3D-solidifies the stage *deeper* and wider
*-TA was off* a couple of clicks to the left.

Now I'm understanding how RTA is a powerful tool for tuning and *

I have a crazy idea!* may not be that crazy I bet somebody thought about it.

.


----------



## slvrtsunami

Its 1:30 am and I have to get up for work at 6. Well worth losing sleep to get caught up in this magnificent thread with soo much information going back and forth. The funny part is I bought a 2007 Yaris 4 door (stripped) as a commuter car last week! I will be doing things a little differently based on my previous equipment and budget, but I will be glued to this thread and referring back to it VERY often. thanks to everybody who has and will continue to contribute.


----------



## derickveliz

slvrtsunami said:


> Its 1:30 am and I have to get up for work at 6. Well worth losing sleep to get caught up in this magnificent thread with soo much information going back and forth. The funny part is I bought a 2007 Yaris 4 door (stripped) as a commuter car last week! I will be doing things a little differently based on my previous equipment and budget, but I will be glued to this thread and referring back to it VERY often. thanks to everybody who has and will continue to contribute.


*Thank you,

Congrats on your new Yaris, mine is running great after 5 years and 110K miles I still get 42 MPG (combined)*

Let me know if you need any help, have you been at Yaris-World?

.


----------



## jvctan16

Wow. I just went through all 33 pages and I got a lot of inspirations from your build. Oh and I emailed you. Thanks for the quick reply. Sadly I'm on the other side of the planet  I'm still shopping for deadening, since the good stuff ain't available locally.


----------



## derickveliz

jvctan16 said:


> Wow. I just went through all 33 pages and I got a lot of inspirations from your build. Oh and I emailed you. Thanks for the quick reply. Sadly I'm on the other side of the planet  I'm still shopping for deadening, since the good stuff ain't available locally.



*You are welcome, you know how to contact me or just ask here, I'll be happy to help.

.*


----------



## slvrtsunami

derickveliz said:


> *Thank you,
> 
> Congrats on your new Yaris, mine is running great after 5 years and 110K miles I still get 42 MPG (combined)*
> 
> Let me know if you need any help, have you been at Yaris-World?
> 
> .


Thanks. No, actually I was looking for a yaris sight to go to. Yaris-world it is, I will check it out.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free


----------



## derickveliz

*DIYMA members... *

This awesome car it's for sale now...  LINK










D.


----------



## rollajake2012

Why you selling? its a toyota you nearly have it broke in! lol


----------



## goodstuff

derickveliz said:


> *DIYMA members... *
> 
> This awesome car it's for sale now...  LINK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D.


What What? Pm me.


----------



## derickveliz

rollajake2012 said:


> Why you selling? its a toyota you nearly have it broke in! lol


Yes indeed, actually my wife is kind of sad. She gave a closer look at the car and said... "wow, Yaris it's a nice car after all"

I really need an AWD vehicle for work, If I could keep my Yaris I would, this one has a special place in my garage, unique little car! 

D.


----------



## Hispls

What next? I can't wait to see/hear the build in whatever you replace this with. Count me in on the next meetup as well.


----------



## derickveliz

Hispls said:


> What next? I can't wait to see/hear the build in whatever you replace this with. Count me in on the next meetup as well.


*Yaris is gone!* 

Yes we will keep meeting and for sure WE will invite everybody!

*TO BE CONTINUE! * :laugh:

D.


----------



## goodstuff

I want to help you build it D.


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> I want to help you build it D.


*You will!* 

Right now I'm just driving my brothers car, a 2008 Subaru Impresa (Loud, noisy, and not as good in MPG like the Yaris) but will keep me moving until I get my new drive!

D.


----------



## jf_soria81

Hola derrick, espero entiendas español, tengo un yaris 2007 y estoy Armando mi audio tengo como hu un alpine cda-117 , todo esta en pasivo, amplificador alpine de 75 rims x 4 para parlantes salidas 1 y 2 para componentes 3 vías adelante DLS en pasivo con su respectivo crossover, los 6.5 en las puertas en los agujeros de fábrica, tweeter e en los triángulos q están atrás de los espejos direcionados a la parte central del auto, como por decir a el hombro derecho del conductor, mi gran pregunta es donde puedo poner mis medios q son de 4 pulgadas, los probé en los kick y me parece q pierde presencia, y arriba en los pilares tienen presencia pero los siento no tan 3D como me gustaría q se escuche, quiero saber qué angulacion y posición darle a los medios, pensando que en medio año tengo pensado pasar todo mi sistema a activo,,,,, si me podrías dar una mano con mis medios sería lo máximo, gracias por tu tiempo


----------



## TheDavel

R.I.P. Yaris. Derick if you want another ISW6 let me know and I'll hook you up-


----------



## derickveliz

TheDavel said:


> R.I.P. Yaris. Derick if you want another ISW6 let me know and I'll hook you up-


*Thanks TheDavel, I feel so sad; I miss my Yaris! specially the 42MPG, quiet ride and the music... ...*

I still have the one you sent me, if you ever need it let me know.

And thanks for the offering, I appreciate it.

I still don't have a new car, I'll post here once she arrives!

Thanks again.

D.


----------



## derickveliz

jf_soria81 said:


> Hola derrick, espero entiendas español, tengo un yaris 2007 y estoy Armando mi audio tengo como hu un alpine cda-117 , todo esta en pasivo, amplificador alpine de 75 rims x 4 para parlantes salidas 1 y 2 para componentes 3 vías adelante DLS en pasivo con su respectivo crossover, los 6.5 en las puertas en los agujeros de fábrica, tweeter e en los triángulos q están atrás de los espejos direcionados a la parte central del auto, como por decir a el hombro derecho del conductor, mi gran pregunta es donde puedo poner mis medios q son de 4 pulgadas, los probé en los kick y me parece q pierde presencia, y arriba en los pilares tienen presencia pero los siento no tan 3D como me gustaría q se escuche, quiero saber qué angulacion y posición darle a los medios, pensando que en medio año tengo pensado pasar todo mi sistema a activo,,,,, si me podrías dar una mano con mis medios sería lo máximo, gracias por tu tiempo


Que tal como estas, claro que si entiendo español!

*Los Medios? tus Medios van a dictar el ancho y profundidad de tu escenario cuando comviertas todo el sistema en Activo!
*
Tambien depende mucho de tu estatura y tamanio, para ver donde colocas los medios. *"Lo mas importante es que exista un camino "LIBRE" entre el Medio izquierdo hacia el oido izquierdo!"*

En el caso de poner los Medios en los kicks, y Si tu eres muy grande o tus piernas bloquean de tu vista las bocinas el efecto Haas o como yo le llamo de 3 Dimensiones se perdera! Es muy importante tener en cuenta esta condicion, por eso muchas personas ponen los medios en los pilares, para evitar estas obstructiones, pero la desventaja como dije antes es que el ancho y profundidad de tu escenario se reduce. Yo prefiero mil veces en los kicks.

La orientacion depende mucho de el tipo de bocinas, pero lo mejor es que sean en el eje lo mas que se pueda (on-axis) osea que las bocinas estan apuntando directamente a tus oidos.

Espero que esto te ayude, cualquier cosa me preguntas!

D.


----------



## goodstuff

Pruebe los altavoces en lugares diferentes si se puede. Yo prefiero un camino directo hasta altas para los tweeters.


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> Pruebe los altavoces en lugares diferentes si se puede. Yo prefiero un camino directo hasta altas para los tweeters.


*Good job goodstuff!*

D.


----------



## goodstuff

derickveliz said:


> *Good job goodstuff!*
> 
> D.


Traductor Google FTW!


----------



## jf_soria81

derickveliz said:


> Que tal como estas, claro que si entiendo español!
> 
> *Los Medios? tus Medios van a dictar el ancho y profundidad de tu escenario cuando comviertas todo el sistema en Activo!
> *
> Tambien depende mucho de tu estatura y tamanio, para ver donde colocas los medios. *"Lo mas importante es que exista un camino "LIBRE" entre el Medio izquierdo hacia el oido izquierdo!"*
> 
> En el caso de poner los Medios en los kicks, y Si tu eres muy grande o tus piernas bloquean de tu vista las bocinas el efecto Haas o como yo le llamo de 3 Dimensiones se perdera! Es muy importante tener en cuenta esta condicion, por eso muchas personas ponen los medios en los pilares, para evitar estas obstructiones, pero la desventaja como dije antes es que el ancho y profundidad de tu escenario se reduce. Yo prefiero mil veces en los kicks.
> 
> La orientacion depende mucho de el tipo de bocinas, pero lo mejor es que sean en el eje lo mas que se pueda (on-axis) osea que las bocinas estan apuntando directamente a tus oidos.
> 
> Espero que esto te ayude, cualquier cosa me preguntas!
> 
> D.


Gracias por la respuesta, lo mismo pensaba yo, soy alto, mido 1.87 y grueso, y mis piernas bloquean si ubico los medios en los kicks, ahora decidiendo que mis medios se pongan en los pilares, ponerlo uno mirándose al otro como tu lo hiciste en un principio, y poniéndolo direcionados al medio del auto, así como tengo los tweeters, que efecto tendría en el sonido estás distintas angulaciones, lo q busco es un sonido claro, y que no me distorsione , ni me taladre el tímpano algún sonido de mi sistema. 

Última pregunta, hay mucha diferencia entre sistemas activos y pasivos, que características tiene q tener los amplificadores para manejar estos sistemas activos, lo que sí tengo entendido, es que mi hu alpine le tengo q conseguir un procesador como el h100 para manejar el sistema activo


----------



## derickveliz

jf_soria81 said:


> Gracias por la respuesta, lo mismo pensaba yo, soy alto, mido 1.87 y grueso, y mis piernas bloquean si ubico los medios en los kicks, ahora decidiendo que mis medios se pongan en los pilares, ponerlo uno mirándose al otro como tu lo hiciste en un principio, y poniéndolo direcionados al medio del auto, así como tengo los tweeters, que efecto tendría en el sonido estás distintas angulaciones, lo q busco es un sonido claro, y que no me distorsione , ni me taladre el tímpano algún sonido de mi sistema.
> 
> Última pregunta, hay mucha diferencia entre sistemas activos y pasivos, que características tiene q tener los amplificadores para manejar estos sistemas activos, lo que sí tengo entendido, es que mi hu alpine le tengo q conseguir un procesador como el h100 para manejar el sistema activo



Medios y Tweeters apuntando lo mas lejos del cualquier superficie donde rebote el sonido, ejemplo... apuntando al techo mas o menos al centro del carro, esto es para evitar reflecciones.

Un sistema activo es mucho mas complejo, y te da la libertad de controlar x-overs, niveles, T/A y otras cosas individualmente cada bocina, un sistema Activo es mucho mejor que un pasivo.

Cualquier amplificador puede estar en un equipo pasivo y activo. una gran diferencia es que en el activo los x-overs o Digital Sound Processor va antes de los amplificadores, en un pasivo los x-overs van despues del amplificador.

Cualquier duda, solo pregunta!

D.


----------



## jf_soria81

Y si en vez de direccionarlos como tu dices a la altura del centro del auto al techo, los direciono a altura del techo, pero más para las ventanas delanteras el medio derecho a la ventana izquierda, y el medio izquierdo a la ventana derecha, q efecto me daría, creo q así lo hiciste en tu instalación del yaris


----------



## derickveliz

jf_soria81 said:


> Y si en vez de direccionarlos como tu dices a la altura del centro del auto al techo, los direciono a altura del techo, pero más para las ventanas delanteras el medio derecho a la ventana izquierda, y el medio izquierdo a la ventana derecha, q efecto me daría, creo q así lo hiciste en tu instalación del yaris


*1ro... los medios deberian de ser muy buenos para funcionar "off-axis" y 2nd... hechando a prender se aprende... cundo tenia los medios orientados asi, las reflecciones del windshield y las ventanas impedian ajustar y enfocar la imagen central de mi escenario. Las reflecciones en los carros son tu peor enemigo! Trata de evitarlas al maximo.

Lo que pasa es que tus oidos empiezan a percebir las seniales que rebotan en los vidrios y el oido equivocado, x ejemplo el medio izquierdo rebota en la ventana derecha y tu oido derecho persibe esa senial en el oido equivocado, como resultado es imposible solidificar la imagen!

Este fenomeno se persibe cuando estas ajustando con frequencias especificas, por ejemplo yo puse la frequencia de 1kHz y con mi equalizdor ajustaba izquierda y derecha subiendo y bajando cada lado para colocar el sonido en el centro de mi tablero, pero por las reflecciones yo escuchaba el la senial en mi oido izquierdo cuando unicamente el medio derecho estaba sonando, cuando puse mi mano bloquando la senial que rebotaba en el vidrio logre entender como las reflecciones estropean el escenario.

Este fenomeno tambien lo puedo observar con los medios en los Kicks, solo que es menor y se puede evitar con mayor facilidad! *





D.


----------



## jf_soria81

Y si en todo caso decido poner mis medios en los kicks, que tipo de angulaciones me recomiendas, ósea a q dirección apuntar cada medio, pienso q si tu lo llevas así es porque se escucha mejor q en los pilares, no habrá problema en el el tweeter este tan separado del medio porq el tweeter lo llevo en la parte interna de los espejos de las puertas, en esos triángulo q casi todo el mundo instala allí los tweeters, los tengo direcionados al centro del auto, como apuntando a los hombros internos. 

La verdad q no me animaba por ponerlo en los kicks, porque siento que en los kicks a los medios les falta potencia cuando pruebo con esa posición, pero también me he puesto a pensar que es porque todo lo tengo en pasivo aún, y así no puedo controlar la ganancia por separado que le puedo dar a cada parlante, confirmame si puede ser eso, ya que tu haz pasado por eso, y lo debes saber, decirte que mi sistema de 3 vías delante es un DLS C36, amplificados con un alpine de 50x2 que pienso cambiar por un dls o jl audio de 75 por canal para cuando esté en activo. Como te digo mi mayor interrogante es que, en los pilares siento los medios con más presencia, más real , y en los kicks como q ni los siento, pero eso si es cierto , siento el escenario más ancho


----------



## derickveliz

jf_soria81 said:


> Y si en todo caso decido poner mis medios en los kicks, que tipo de angulaciones me recomiendas, ósea a q dirección apuntar cada medio, pienso q si tu lo llevas así es porque se escucha mejor q en los pilares, no habrá problema en el el tweeter este tan separado del medio porq el tweeter lo llevo en la parte interna de los espejos de las puertas, en esos triángulo q casi todo el mundo instala allí los tweeters, los tengo direcionados al centro del auto, como apuntando a los hombros internos.
> 
> La verdad q no me animaba por ponerlo en los kicks, porque siento que en los kicks a los medios les falta potencia cuando pruebo con esa posición, pero también me he puesto a pensar que es porque todo lo tengo en pasivo aún, y así no puedo controlar la ganancia por separado que le puedo dar a cada parlante, confirmame si puede ser eso, ya que tu haz pasado por eso, y lo debes saber, decirte que mi sistema de 3 vías delante es un DLS C36, amplificados con un alpine de 50x2 que pienso cambiar por un dls o jl audio de 75 por canal para cuando esté en activo. Como te digo mi mayor interrogante es que, en los pilares siento los medios con más presencia, más real , y en los kicks como q ni los siento, pero eso si es cierto , siento el escenario más ancho


La posibilidad de ubicar los medios en los kicks, es condicional a que "debe de existir una coneccion in-interrumpida desde el Medio izquierdo hacia el oido izquierdo, (igual para el lado derecho) osea que si el piloto al estar en su posicion normal bloquea este "path" entre la bocina y el oido el efecto de tridimencionalidad empiesa a desaparecer.

La orientacion se define por medio de las caracteristicas tecnicas de la bocina, unas bocinas son mejores on-axis y otras no pueden funcionar off-axis, yo en lo personal me gusta mas on-axis porque asi tengo mas control y evito algunas reflecciones. Estoy a punto de recibir mi carro nuevo y los Medios seran instalados en los Kicks y cada uno orientado a mis oidos, Pero esta technica tambien me costo el primer lugar en competencias porque el Juez que examino mi carro era mucho mas alto que yo, por lo tanto sus piernas y pies bloquearon la senial entre el Medio izquierdo y su oido izquierdo, ademas sus oidos quedaron mas arriba de donde mis oidos quedan, por lo tanto la imagen para el fue totalmente erronea. 

Por eso en este hobby la tendencia de poner los medios en los a-pilares ha sido el fruto de como evitar este tipo de situaciones donde no imorta el tamanio del juez/piloto el escenario no cambiara tanto como si los medios estubiecen en los kicks (se vuelve mas personalizao)

Pero la gran diferencia al menos en mi caso (todo depende de PLD que tengas en tu carro... path length distance) es la profundidad del escenario, en otras palabras entre mas lejos de ti coloques las bocinas mucho mejor para tu escenario.

Cuando tienes tu sistema en Pasivo, los tweeters tienen que estar a la par de los medios, cuando tu sistema funciona como Activo, la separacion de Medios con Tweeters es posible.! La orientacion es igual que los medios, lo mas importante es el camino mas corto entre el tweeter izquerdo ha tu oido izquierdo, igual para el lado derecho, la orientacion tambien se define por la capacidad del tweeter para trabajar "on-axis" o "off-axis". lo peor es dejar que la senial rebote en los vidrios of superficies planas y duras.

Sientes mas volumen en los pilares, es claro que hay mas reflecciones que aumentan el sonido y las bocinas estan mas serca de tus oidos, al final cuando ajustas tu sistema arriba o abajo es lo mismo en terminos de volumen.

D.


----------



## HondAudio

Hey Derick -

Did you ever give any thought to running the +12-volt cable through the cowl and into one of those holes in the firewall? I found a hole on mine that I could one of those 'firewall grommets' into, and then I'd just need to drill a hole and put a rubber grommet in the cowl. It might be easier than trying to fish the cable through that boot lower down


----------



## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> Hey Derick -
> 
> Did you ever give any thought to running the +12-volt cable through the cowl and into one of those holes in the firewall? I found a hole on mine that I could one of those 'firewall grommets' into, and then I'd just need to drill a hole and put a rubber grommet in the cowl. It might be easier than trying to fish the cable through that boot lower down


*I had it on the passengers side, way up in the fire wall, there is a grommet about 3/4" Diameter. *

D.


----------



## HondAudio

derickveliz said:


> *I had it on the passengers side, way up in the fire wall, there is a grommet about 3/4" Diameter. *
> 
> D.


There's a hole under the grey metal plate where the wiper mounts, but it might be partially blocked by the pivot [look between the rectangular hole and the curved upper-left edge of the metal plate]:










Do you think there's enough room, or could I go through the rectangular hole instead?


----------



## steveholt

i need to translate part of this page, i feel like im missing out on a lot of insight to this thread


----------



## jf_soria81

derickveliz said:


> La posibilidad de ubicar los medios en los kicks, es condicional a que "debe de existir una coneccion in-interrumpida desde el Medio izquierdo hacia el oido izquierdo, (igual para el lado derecho) osea que si el piloto al estar en su posicion normal bloquea este "path" entre la bocina y el oido el efecto de tridimencionalidad empiesa a desaparecer.
> 
> La orientacion se define por medio de las caracteristicas tecnicas de la bocina, unas bocinas son mejores on-axis y otras no pueden funcionar off-axis, yo en lo personal me gusta mas on-axis porque asi tengo mas control y evito algunas reflecciones. Estoy a punto de recibir mi carro nuevo y los Medios seran instalados en los Kicks y cada uno orientado a mis oidos, Pero esta technica tambien me costo el primer lugar en competencias porque el Juez que examino mi carro era mucho mas alto que yo, por lo tanto sus piernas y pies bloquearon la senial entre el Medio izquierdo y su oido izquierdo, ademas sus oidos quedaron mas arriba de donde mis oidos quedan, por lo tanto la imagen para el fue totalmente erronea.
> 
> Por eso en este hobby la tendencia de poner los medios en los a-pilares ha sido el fruto de como evitar este tipo de situaciones donde no imorta el tamanio del juez/piloto el escenario no cambiara tanto como si los medios estubiecen en los kicks (se vuelve mas personalizao)
> 
> Pero la gran diferencia al menos en mi caso (todo depende de PLD que tengas en tu carro... path length distance) es la profundidad del escenario, en otras palabras entre mas lejos de ti coloques las bocinas mucho mejor para tu escenario.
> 
> Cuando tienes tu sistema en Pasivo, los tweeters tienen que estar a la par de los medios, cuando tu sistema funciona como Activo, la separacion de Medios con Tweeters es posible.! La orientacion es igual que los medios, lo mas importante es el camino mas corto entre el tweeter izquerdo ha tu oido izquierdo, igual para el lado derecho, la orientacion tambien se define por la capacidad del tweeter para trabajar "on-axis" o "off-axis". lo peor es dejar que la senial rebote en los vidrios of superficies planas y duras.
> 
> Sientes mas volumen en los pilares, es claro que hay mas reflecciones que aumentan el sonido y las bocinas estan mas serca de tus oidos, al final cuando ajustas tu sistema arriba o abajo es lo mismo en terminos de volumen.
> 
> D.


Y dime con respecto a la potencia de amplificación en activo o pasivo, por ejemplo, si tengo un set de 3 vías de 90 rms el conjunto en pasivo, se supone que mi amplificador debería entregar 90 rms por canal,,, peeeero sí paso mi sistema a activo, cuanto debería entregar a cada elemento, ya que por ejemplo en el sistema de 3 vías de 90rms en cada elemento dice 50 rms, mi pregunta se basa en que yo tengo un amplificador alpine de 50 rms x4 así que nose si desechar este amplificador por un jl audio de 100rms x 4 o mi alpine me sirva para cuando esté en activo? 

Otra pregunta q me ronda la cabeza es, si tengo un procesador alpine h100, este controla 6 canales, con esto controlaría los 6 elementos de mi set delantero, hasta allí bien, pero de allí como amplificaría mis 6x9 traseros, y mi subwoofer si el procesador ya se llevó mis 6 canales?


----------



## derickveliz

HondAudio said:


> There's a hole under the grey metal plate where the wiper mounts, but it might be partially blocked by the pivot [look between the rectangular hole and the curved upper-left edge of the metal plate]:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think there's enough room, or could I go through the rectangular hole instead?


Wow! it's so different than mine...



D.


----------



## derickveliz

steveholt said:


> i need to translate part of this page, i feel like im missing out on a lot of insight to this thread


Don't worry I've been explaining this over and over in this thread (in English).

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

D.


----------



## derickveliz

jf_soria81 said:


> Y dime con respecto a la potencia de amplificación en activo o pasivo, por ejemplo, si tengo un set de 3 vías de 90 rms el conjunto en pasivo, se supone que mi amplificador debería entregar 90 rms por canal,,, peeeero sí paso mi sistema a activo, cuanto debería entregar a cada elemento, ya que por ejemplo en el sistema de 3 vías de 90rms en cada elemento dice 50 rms, mi pregunta se basa en que yo tengo un amplificador alpine de 50 rms x4 así que nose si desechar este amplificador por un jl audio de 100rms x 4 o mi alpine me sirva para cuando esté en activo?
> 
> Otra pregunta q me ronda la cabeza es, si tengo un procesador alpine h100, este controla 6 canales, con esto controlaría los 6 elementos de mi set delantero, hasta allí bien, pero de allí como amplificaría mis 6x9 traseros, y mi subwoofer si el procesador ya se llevó mis 6 canales?


Ok, aqui haber si te logro explicar...

Primero para los Medios y los tweenters con 40 watts es suficiente.
Para los Medios/Bajos si se necesita mas fuerza 75 watts y mas si es posible.

Cuando te vas activo, cada vocina es amplificada por separado. Tu alpine de 4x50 es perfecto para Tweeters y Medios


Por ejemplo yo uso 3 amplificadores asi:

amplificador 1 de 4x75 (2 para los tweeters y 2 para los medios)
amplificador 2 de 175x2 para los medios/bajos
amplificador 3 400x1 para el woofer.

Desde mi radio/DSP salen 8 RCA:
2 de tweeters
2 de medios
2 de medios/bajos
2 de bajos

Son un total de 8 canales lo cual hace un 3 way Front Stage (no existen bocinas traseras)

Tu procesador tiene 6 canales lo que indica que tiene:
2 para tweeters
2 para medios/bajos
2 para bajos

con el puedes hacer un 2 way Front Stage.

Que opinas? se me entendio lo que te quiero decir?
Dices que tienes un set de 3 vias? son 3 bocinas y una bocina de 3 vias? puedes poner fotos de tu equipo?

D.


----------



## jf_soria81

derickveliz said:


> Ok, aqui haber si te logro explicar...
> 
> Primero para los Medios y los tweenters con 40 watts es suficiente.
> Para los Medios/Bajos si se necesita mas fuerza 75 watts y mas si es posible.
> 
> Cuando te vas activo, cada vocina es amplificada por separado. Tu alpine de 4x50 es perfecto para Tweeters y Medios
> 
> 
> Por ejemplo yo uso 3 amplificadores asi:
> 
> amplificador 1 de 4x75 (2 para los tweeters y 2 para los medios)
> amplificador 2 de 175x2 para los medios/bajos
> amplificador 3 400x1 para el woofer.
> 
> Desde mi radio/DSP salen 8 RCA:
> 2 de tweeters
> 2 de medios
> 2 de medios/bajos
> 2 de bajos
> 
> Son un total de 8 canales lo cual hace un 3 way Front Stage (no existen bocinas traseras)
> 
> Tu procesador tiene 6 canales lo que indica que tiene:
> 2 para tweeters
> 2 para medios/bajos
> 2 para bajos
> 
> con el puedes hacer un 2 way Front Stage.
> 
> Que opinas? se me entendio lo que te quiero decir?
> Dices que tienes un set de 3 vias? son 3 bocinas y una bocina de 3 vias? puedes poner fotos de tu equipo?
> 
> D.


Te describiré lo que tengo en mi auto y no mencionare los xovers pasivos q tengo ya que no sirven para pasar a axtivos, 

Radio alpine cda-117
Procesador alpine h100 (maneja 6 canales)
4 tweeters dls ( sólo uso 2 adelante)
2 medios DLS 4" ya instalados en kit panels, (los acabo de terminar en fibra)
2 medios/bajos 6.5 dls instalados en el agujero OEM de las puertas.
2 parlantes 6x9 jbl en la bandeja trasera
2 subwoofers 12" en la maletera en caja sellada
1 amplificador alpine de 50x4 en puente 100x2
1 amplificador soundstream 80x4 en puente 150x 2
1 amplificador monoaural clase d Audiobahn de 800 rms x1

Mencionado todo lo que tengo , que podría hacer con esto, que configuración podría ser la más adecuada, sería mejor no usar los 6x9?


----------



## derickveliz

jf_soria81 said:


> Te describiré lo que tengo en mi auto y no mencionare los xovers pasivos q tengo ya que no sirven para pasar a axtivos,
> 
> Radio alpine cda-117
> Procesador alpine h100 (maneja 6 canales)
> 4 tweeters dls ( sólo uso 2 adelante)
> 2 medios DLS 4" ya instalados en kit panels, (los acabo de terminar en fibra)
> 2 medios/bajos 6.5 dls instalados en el agujero OEM de las puertas.
> 2 parlantes 6x9 jbl en la bandeja trasera
> 2 subwoofers 12" en la maletera en caja sellada
> 1 amplificador alpine de 50x4 en puente 100x2
> 1 amplificador soundstream 80x4 en puente 150x 2
> 1 amplificador monoaural clase d Audiobahn de 800 rms x1
> 
> Mencionado todo lo que tengo , que podría hacer con esto, que configuración podría ser la más adecuada, sería mejor no usar los 6x9?



*Ok, aunque me tarde pero bueno!... 

Con el equipo que tu tienes asi lo haria yo:

1.- En un systema Cuasy-Activo porque no tienes capacidad para hacerlo de 8 canales

2.- Pondria los Tweeters lo mas serca de los Medios.

Asi podras hacer uso de los x-overs y Time/alignment de tu H100*










D.


----------



## luisc202

derickveliz said:


> *Thanks TheDavel, I feel so sad; I miss my Yaris! specially the 42MPG, quiet ride and the music... ...*
> 
> I still have the one you sent me, if you ever need it let me know.
> 
> And thanks for the offering, I appreciate it.
> 
> I still don't have a new car, I'll post here once she arrives!
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> D.


Derick,

So how did you like the Hertz Mid's? I just bought the Hertz Mille 3 ways set and stumbled onto your thread. I like the way you mounted the speakers to the pillars onto those spheres. That was creative.


I am from Worcester myself ...


----------



## derickveliz

luisc202 said:


> Derick,
> So how did you like the Hertz Mid's? I just bought the Hertz Mille 3 ways set and stumbled onto your thread. I like the way you mounted the speakers to the pillars onto those spheres. That was creative.
> 
> I am from Worcester myself ...


Thank you.

Hertz mids are really good! and I made them sound amazing! (most of speakers in these range should sound good as long as you provide a good sound source, EQ and a good installation!, very important).

The HL-70s in spheres work "ok" as long as you don't x-over them below 400Hz but...

*I discarded the a-pillar spheres project because:*

-I didn't provide enough internal air for the HL-70s to play down and x-over them at 250Hz (IB speaker here, according to Hertz I should have provide at least 1 liter of internal space)

-PLD's worked better when putting the HL-70s in the kick area

-HL-70s too close to listener (not good)

-The stage was narrow, due to the location, distance between speakers in spheres was smaller than when installed in kickpanels.

But the speakers it self the HL-70s are AWESOME as a point source, and have a good off-axis and on-axis performance.

*Can't go wrong with HERTZ.* 

After selling the Yaris and getting a new car, I may end up selling the HL-70s since I'm going to try ID Horns in my next project.









D.



-


----------



## Coppertone

So what pray tell did you replace the Yaris with ?


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## derickveliz

Coppertone said:


> So what pray tell did you replace the Yaris with ?


*I'm picking up my baby on Saturday! Can't wait* 






D.


----------



## Coppertone

Beautiful color....


----------



## derickveliz

Coppertone said:


> Beautiful color....


Thank you, 

D.


----------



## mrmill

Noice


----------



## n_olympios

A CLA, nice upgrade from the Yaris. I'll be looking forward to your new build log.


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## derickveliz

n_olympios said:


> A CLA, nice upgrade from the Yaris. I'll be looking forward to your new build log.


*Thank you!

So far 350 miles and very happy!*










D.


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## derickveliz

mrmill said:


> Noice


Thank you!

D.


----------



## derickveliz

*So far this would be the plan for the CLA...*



D.


----------



## goodstuff

Omg. I bet it's very quiet, even before deadening. Wow. You've got a month to install everything before the meet, just kidding.


----------



## Coppertone

Man, I only wished my system consisted of only three added on pieces lol.


----------



## captainobvious

Very nice upgrade there


----------



## derickveliz

goodstuff said:


> Omg. I bet it's very quiet, even before deadening. Wow. You've got a month to install everything before the meet, just kidding.


*Thanks M... yes it's quite, and for sure I'm glad it is, you know me.*

I have less than a month! ok, I'll try to get it done by then! lol

D.


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## derickveliz

Coppertone said:


> Man, I only wished my system consisted of only three added on pieces lol.


That wasn't the plan, but looks like that's the way to go!

D.


----------



## derickveliz

captainobvious said:


> Very nice upgrade there


*Thank you!*

D.


----------



## derickveliz

* 42 MPG!!! *

* I was driving like grandma!* lol not really just obeying the speed limit



D.


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## boom_squid_2

Nice upgrade 


Love the cla


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## derickveliz

boom_squid_2 said:


> Nice upgrade
> 
> 
> Love the cla


*
Thank you,*



D.


----------



## jf_soria81

derickveliz said:


> *Ok, aunque me tarde pero bueno!...
> 
> Con el equipo que tu tienes asi lo haria yo:
> 
> 1.- En un systema Cuasy-Activo porque no tienes capacidad para hacerlo de 8 canales
> 
> 2.- Pondria los Tweeters lo mas serca de los Medios.
> 
> Asi podras hacer uso de los x-overs y Time/alignment de tu H100*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D.


Hola derick, escribiendo aca nuevamente despues de haber sido victima de un robo de amplificadores de mi auto. Pero bueno cosa del pasado.

Te comento lo q tengo ahora. 
HU: alpine cda117
Set delantero: dls ultimate up36i de 3 vias y 150 rms, (por lo que dice cada elemento atras es 150 rms el woofer, 90 rms el midrange"up2.5i" que es uno de 2.5 de cupula, y 50 rms el tweeter de cúpula de seda.)
Set trasero: dls reference 2 vias r6a de 80rms (nose si instalarlo o sacarlo y solo usar set delantero)
Tengo un amplificador soundstream de 75x4 y en bridged da 150x2. Nose sí usarlo
Tambien tengo la posibilidad de comprar barato un amplificador dls ca50 de 5 canales que bota 50x4 +150x1 o en bridged 150x2 + 150x1(no sabria como usarlo), por ahora kiero estar en pasivo, pero he visto q tambien podria hacer mis vias delanteras semiactivas osea tweeter y medio con crossover y el woofer cortarlo en el amplificador, como podria hacer esto aprovechando cada salida q tengo y sin procesador por el momemto solo cortando los woofers. 
Aparte como siempre llevo un amplificador audiobahn de 800 rms alimentando 2 12" en caja sellada en la maletera.
Ahora mis tweeters y medios los llevo en los pilares direcciónados al medio del auto osea a los hombros internos.
Seria genial q me orientes una vez mas, gracias


----------



## derickveliz

jf_soria81 said:


> Hola derick, escribiendo aca nuevamente despues de haber sido victima de un robo de amplificadores de mi auto. Pero bueno cosa del pasado.
> 
> Te comento lo q tengo ahora.
> HU: alpine cda117
> Set delantero: dls ultimate up36i de 3 vias y 150 rms, (por lo que dice cada elemento atras es 150 rms el woofer, 90 rms el midrange"up2.5i" que es uno de 2.5 de cupula, y 50 rms el tweeter de cúpula de seda.)
> Set trasero: dls reference 2 vias r6a de 80rms (nose si instalarlo o sacarlo y solo usar set delantero)
> Tengo un amplificador soundstream de 75x4 y en bridged da 150x2. Nose sí usarlo
> Tambien tengo la posibilidad de comprar barato un amplificador dls ca50 de 5 canales que bota 50x4 +150x1 o en bridged 150x2 + 150x1(no sabria como usarlo), por ahora kiero estar en pasivo, pero he visto q tambien podria hacer mis vias delanteras semiactivas osea tweeter y medio con crossover y el woofer cortarlo en el amplificador, como podria hacer esto aprovechando cada salida q tengo y sin procesador por el momemto solo cortando los woofers.
> Aparte como siempre llevo un amplificador audiobahn de 800 rms alimentando 2 12" en caja sellada en la maletera.
> Ahora mis tweeters y medios los llevo en los pilares direcciónados al medio del auto osea a los hombros internos.
> Seria genial q me orientes una vez mas, gracias


*Vas a planear por un sytema activo de 3 vias con un escenario?

los watts no importan mucho, solo son referencia y mercadeo

para un sytema SQ con imagen central, no necesitas poner bocinas atras

la orientacion de los medios y tweeters es buena, hay que tratar de evitar las reflexiones en los vidrios al maximo.
*
D.


----------



## jf_soria81

derickveliz said:


> *Vas a planear por un sytema activo de 3 vias con un escenario?
> 
> los watts no importan mucho, solo son referencia y mercadeo
> 
> para un sytema SQ con imagen central, no necesitas poner bocinas atras
> 
> la orientacion de los medios y tweeters es buena, hay que tratar de evitar las reflexiones en los vidrios al maximo.
> *
> D.


Me gustaría tener un sistema activo de 3 vías delanteras + sub, pero no tengo ningún tipo de procesador, y mi HU no permite tal opciones solo tiene timé alignement es un alpine cda-117, ahorita cuento con 2 amplificadores un monoaural para los 2 sub que están en maletera en caja sellada, y el otro ampli es un soundstream q pienso desechar porque no tiene nada de SQ, y tengo la opción de comprar bien barato un dls ca50 de 5 canales 4x50rms +150 rms(sub), o 2x150rms +150rms(sub), nose si me servirá este amplificador q me están vendiendo,,, ya que mis componentes dls ultimate up36i de 3 vías son de 150 rms, 

Habría mucha diferencia en ser activo o semiactivo, ósea con un ampli 4 canales mover en los canales 1 y 2 los medios y tweeters con su filtro original, y el 3 y 4 mover los woofers de las puertas cortando la frecuencia con el amplificador, me han dicho q a los woofers de la puertas hay q darle buena potencia para sacarle el provecho al máximo, recomienda me que hacer , como te digo ahorita no estoy en la posibilidad de comprar ningún procesador ni cambiar de HU, además me gusta mucho esta alpine, crees q los 50 rms q bota la dls que me están vendiendo mueva bien los woofers de las puertas? Lo que estoy buscando es un sonido limpio, escenario alto, presencia de woofers adelante, y fuerza en los graves delanteros

Habría mucha diferencia en la calidad del sonido, siendo activo o semiactivo?

Tanto así influye tener parlantes traseros, porque allí me sobran unos dls de 2 vías R6a de 80rms. Malograría la escena si llevo esto atrás y todo en pasivo? Como q cuando pongo los parlantes atrás se siente más envolvente, explícame esto porfa.

Me he dado cuenta q cada día q pasa bajo más el nivel de los subwoofers, porque da más que gustó sentir tanta calidad delantera, creo q mis oídos se están entrenando de a pocos.


----------



## derickveliz

Ok, recientemente le ayude a un amigo (bueno me pago por hacerlo) para que ajustara su equipo y pecisamente tenia un alpine cda-117! y quedo magnifico!

Lo que necesitas es un amplificador de 4 canales para los Bajos y los Tweeters

Usa el mono que ya tienes para los subwoofers!

Para tener buenos Bajos en las puertas necesitas tratar la puerta adecuadamente para convertirla en una buena caja de bocinas! no es tanta la fuerza si no la calidad de tu instalacion!

Tu alpine cda-117 ya es un procesador, al menos te dara un buen escenrio y una buena imagen! asi que te recomiendo que te animes y hagas un sistema activo!

Cuando te vas por un sistema SQ de 2 o 3 vias activo, las bocinas traceras sobran! jalan el centro de tu escenario hacia atras, y si logras hacer todo bien hecho, solo con las bocinas adelante (a escepcion del subwoofer, pero con la ayuda de Time Alignment) lograras una tridimensionalidad increhible!

Las bocinas atras solo te dan el efecto de lo que un home theater te daria al ver/escuchar una pelicula en 5.1 pero aqui la mayoria de musica que vas a escuchar no son peliculas son canciones en Stereo, lo cual no tienen nada de 5.1

Un buen sistema se siente como si estubieras frente a los musicos en vivo! hace de cuenta que estas en un cafe! y hay musica en vivo un sistema SQ te hace sentir como si estubieses en el cafe! y sientes la musica como si fuera real! igual en un concierto o en un estudio, esa es la belleza de un "Front Stage" 

Claro que le bajas a los subwoofers cada dia! uno tiende a subirle a los subwoofers para sentirlos mas, pero la verdad lo que quieres es reproducir los bajos tal y como fueron creados (no exagerarlos) si una cancion no tiene muchos bajos no es bueno forzar a que nuestros equipos reproduscan frequencias que no existen en las cansiones.

Lo que vas a necesitar al final es un RTA, tienes iPhone? o iPhad?

D.


----------



## jf_soria81

derickveliz said:


> Ok, recientemente le ayude a un amigo (bueno me pago por hacerlo) para que ajustara su equipo y pecisamente tenia un alpine cda-117! y quedo magnifico!
> 
> Lo que necesitas es un amplificador de 4 canales para los Bajos y los Tweeters
> 
> Usa el mono que ya tienes para los subwoofers!
> 
> Para tener buenos Bajos en las puertas necesitas tratar la puerta adecuadamente para convertirla en una buena caja de bocinas! no es tanta la fuerza si no la calidad de tu instalacion!
> 
> Tu alpine cda-117 ya es un procesador, al menos te dara un buen escenrio y una buena imagen! asi que te recomiendo que te animes y hagas un sistema activo!
> 
> Cuando te vas por un sistema SQ de 2 o 3 vias activo, las bocinas traceras sobran! jalan el centro de tu escenario hacia atras, y si logras hacer todo bien hecho, solo con las bocinas adelante (a escepcion del subwoofer, pero con la ayuda de Time Alignment) lograras una tridimensionalidad increhible!
> 
> Las bocinas atras solo te dan el efecto de lo que un home theater te daria al ver/escuchar una pelicula en 5.1 pero aqui la mayoria de musica que vas a escuchar no son peliculas son canciones en Stereo, lo cual no tienen nada de 5.1
> 
> Un buen sistema se siente como si estubieras frente a los musicos en vivo! hace de cuenta que estas en un cafe! y hay musica en vivo un sistema SQ te hace sentir como si estubieses en el cafe! y sientes la musica como si fuera real! igual en un concierto o en un estudio, esa es la belleza de un "Front Stage"
> 
> Claro que le bajas a los subwoofers cada dia! uno tiende a subirle a los subwoofers para sentirlos mas, pero la verdad lo que quieres es reproducir los bajos tal y como fueron creados (no exagerarlos) si una cancion no tiene muchos bajos no es bueno forzar a que nuestros equipos reproduscan frequencias que no existen en las cansiones.
> 
> Lo que vas a necesitar al final es un RTA, tienes iPhone? o iPhad?
> 
> D.


Gracias por rtu respuesta, claro que me gustaría hacer un activo pero me hablas de woofers y tweeters, y que hago con mis medios ya que estan instalados ya en los montantes juntos con los tweeters en fibra de vidrio modifique los pilares, por lo que se y lo poco q los he escuchado suenan bien y me gustaria aprovecharlo, por otro lado mi cda-117 dices que ya es procesador pero no tiene varias cosas q si tiene un procesador, lo que tiene es time aligment, eq parametrico, hpf que corta los 4 canales, como podria cortar frecuencias de cada canal independientemente como lo hace un procesador para hacer un activo de 3 vias+sub necesito un procesador q maneje 6 canales de parlantes+ sub , o podria optar por un cuasy-activo como me lo recomendaste una vez, que era usar ampli de 4 canales, canal 1(medio+tweeter) igual el canal 2 y canal 3 y 4 los woofers, la prefunta es como manejo los cortes de frecuencia para cada canal, y que amplificador me recomendarias para hacer esto? Tu crees que con el DLS ca-50 podria ayudar en algo como te digo quiero usar tweeter, medio y woofer. 
Aparte este ampli es 50x4 + 150x1 , en bridged es 150x2 + 150x1 , y tiene multiplicador de frecuencias 1x-10x lo cual no se para que sirve. 










Si tengo un ipad aca en casa.

Gracias por la respuesta y ojala a mi no me llegues a cobrar, jajaja


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## jf_soria81

Tambien por el mismo precio tengo la oportunidad de conseguir un JL audio XD400/4 de 75rms por canal, y en bridged me da 200x2, la idea seria adquirir cualquiera de estos 2 amplificadores y hacer un sistema semiactivo, detallando me refiero a medios y tweeters en pasivo y woofers en activo, aca te dejo una foto tambien del amplificador JL XD400/4


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## jf_soria81

Me lo compré, el jl xd400/4 es mio, me salio regalado, lo consegui a 130 dolares, me parece un super precio, este lo pienso hacer trabajar en semiactivo osea canal 1 y 2 medios y tweeters en pasivo y canales 3 y 4 los midbass en activos, la pregunta seria a cuanto corto la frecuencia a esos midbass, cual seria el punto de corte perfecto, por ahora ira asi, mas adelante cuando consiga un procesador si ire todo en activo, pero por ahora en semiactivo, espero no haberme equivocado en escoger este amplificador


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## MattB101

derickveliz said:


> Thanks, theRESONANCE, yea! I've been keeping an eye on your install, that sub-woofer box came out very nice! Yes I'm still posting at YarisWorld, we miss you over there!
> 
> Glass?.... Puffff piece of cake! well not really but it was fun and smells good too.
> 
> Yes, I really like to drive this little car!
> 
> .


Some folks don't like the smell but, I'm with you, resin smells great. Still need outstanding ventilation though. I always do my glass work outdoors. 

Sent with my arthritic thumbs with proofreading help from the hound!


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## Hispls

I have high expectations! Please keep me updated when you guys have the next meetup... my username at Comcast.net to email me.


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## derickveliz

Hispls said:


> I have high expectations! Please keep me updated when you guys have the next meetup... my username at Comcast.net to email me.


*Will do!

D.*


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## derickveliz

MattB101 said:


> Some folks don't like the smell but, I'm with you, resin smells great. Still need outstanding ventilation though. I always do my glass work outdoors.
> 
> Sent with my arthritic thumbs with proofreading help from the hound!


*Love the smell!

D.*


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## derickveliz

jf_soria81 said:


> Me lo compré, el jl xd400/4 es mio, me salio regalado, lo consegui a 130 dolares, me parece un super precio, este lo pienso hacer trabajar en semiactivo osea canal 1 y 2 medios y tweeters en pasivo y canales 3 y 4 los midbass en activos, la pregunta seria a cuanto corto la frecuencia a esos midbass, cual seria el punto de corte perfecto, por ahora ira asi, mas adelante cuando consiga un procesador si ire todo en activo, pero por ahora en semiactivo, espero no haberme equivocado en escoger este amplificador


Excelente,

*un consejo para ir semi-activo es mantener **los tweeters a menos de 30cm de los Medios.*

te dejo aqui los datos de mis x-overs como una referencia,

*Tweeters 6.3kHz 
Mids 250Hz to 5kHz
Lows 80Hz to 200Hz
Sub up to 63Hz*

no lo tomes literal, toma los datos como un punto de partida, solo ten encuenta que los numberos no son tan importantes como los resultados, se hace lo que se puede para hacerlo sonar bien.

D.


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## jf_soria81

derickveliz said:


> Excelente,
> 
> *un consejo para ir semi-activo es mantener **los tweeters a menos de 30cm de los Medios.*
> 
> te dejo aqui los datos de mis x-overs como una referencia,
> 
> *Tweeters 6.3kHz
> Mids 250Hz to 5kHz
> Lows 80Hz to 200Hz
> Sub up to 63Hz*
> 
> no lo tomes literal, toma los datos como un punto de partida, solo ten encuenta que los numberos no son tan importantes como los resultados, se hace lo que se puede para hacerlo sonar bien.
> 
> D.


Hola derrick, sigo usando los filtros pasivos para todo el conjunto, ya que aún no tengo procesador, el amplificador JL lo uso puenteando 200x2 sólo para mover los conjuntos delanteros todo en pasivo, los medios y tweeters están a 5 cm de distancia entre ellos en los pilares, los izquierdos apuntando al copiloto y los derechos apuntando al piloto, pero me gustaría que me orientes un poco , con la orientacion de estos ya que siento que mis midrange suenan muy fuerte, mejor dicho q por momentos hay picos muy molestos, o crees q la orientación sea buena, pero nesecito jugar con otras cosas como timé aligment o con la EQ, 
,, tengo escenario, usando el TA siento que las voces vienen del centro , pero no le siento mucha profundidad,

como dató los midbass están en el lugar original de las puertas y las puertas las,tengo totalmente insonorizadas y selladas con membrana asfaltica, que déjame decirte q el cambio de sonido después de la insonorización de las puertas fue muy bueno, se nota un abismo en sonidos nuevos

Por otro lado el semiactivo sigue en mi cabeza, pero no logró convencerme si realmente sonara mejor que en pasivo, lo digo porque los midbass cuando los conecto en pasivo sin puentear, me refiero a sólo entregarle 75rms, golpean mucho menos que cuando conecto en pasivo todo pero puenteado entregándole 200rms, lo que busco es un sonido fuerte y claro con escenario, profundidad, y naturalidad, sin distorsión de agudos, ni medios estridentes, y bajos sólidos, 

Yo también se que sí voy a semiactivo iría así, 

Canal 1: tweeter y midrange (pasivo) 75rms
Canal 2: tweeter y midrange (pasivo) 75rms
Canal 3: midbass (activo) 75rms
Canal 4: midbass (activo) 75rms
Todo esto movido con la JL Audio XD400/4, tweeter y medios cortados en frecuencia por sus respectivos crossovers y midbass cortados por el amplificador, como cortaría los mid bass, muevo el selector a LPF y la ruedita a cuanto la pongo.

Crees que los midbass sonarían mejor en activo con 75rms que en pasivo con 200rms? Recordar que estos midbass son de 150rms

Se qué así, tendría la ventaja de usar mi time aligment de mi cda-117, como tu dices tiene esa función q tiene un procesador, pero tengo la duda que todo este cambio sea en vano, y no sacar mucho provecho de esta nueva configuración, que cambios veré al pasar a semiactivo?


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## Shamrock61

Subscribed for updates - love the work you've done!


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## jf_soria81

Derick, tengo una duda muy grande, que podría marcar el hecho de irme al activo, o al semiactivo, si tengo mi frontstage de 3 vías + sub! qué configuración podría usar sí uso el procesador de alpine h100, que según tengo entendido controla por separado 6 canales pero en el manual dice que maneja low, mid-L, mid-h, high, ósea 4 frecuencias, acá te dejo unas fotos recogidas de la web que sustentan lo que digo, gracias ante todo por tu apoyo.

Mid low


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## jf_soria81

Mid high


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## jf_soria81

HIGH


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## jf_soria81

L O W


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## jf_soria81

Acá le saque una captura a la página del manual, donde hablan sobre los cortes de frecuencia y los slopes del h100, disculpar por postear foto por foto en cada mensaje pero he estado intentando poner todas en un solo mensaje y no me deja desde el ipad


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## jf_soria81

Este es el procesador alpine h100, con sólo 6 canales en activo, me podrías decir por favor como configurar este en activo o semiactivo en 3vias + sub, y como referencia como configurarías las frecuencias y los slopes, dado que mis tweeters y mis medios están en los pilares, el del conductor orientado perfectamente al rostro del copiloto, y los del lado de copiloto orientados al rostro del piloto, ante todo gracias por ayudarme con todo esto, sólo decir q es de gran ayuda , ya que personas que saben del tema y que hablen castellano en este foro son muy pocas, gracias derick


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## knifedag007

Been following this build since page 3, great work!


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## derickveliz

jf_soria81 said:


> Derick, tengo una duda muy grande, que podría marcar el hecho de irme al activo, o al semiactivo, si tengo mi frontstage de 3 vías + sub! qué configuración podría usar sí uso el procesador de alpine h100, que según tengo entendido controla por separado 6 canales pero en el manual dice que maneja low, mid-L, mid-h, high, ósea 4 frecuencias, acá te dejo unas fotos recogidas de la web que sustentan lo que digo, gracias ante todo por tu apoyo.
> 
> Mid low


Tu radio es de 3 vias y puedes usarlas asi: Subwoofer, Medios, Tweeters

Lo que ves ahi es el HPF y LPF (High Pass Filter and Low Pass Filter) esto lo usas para limitar los x-over de los Medios x ejemplo si usaras solo 3 vias y los medios empesarian en HPF: 200Hz con un slope de 24 por ejemplo y el LPF: 4kKz, asi es como se limita el rango en el que funcionara esta bocina.

Mi consejo es que uses estos 3 canales, usando tus Medios y Tweeters en Pasivo, ya que los tienes juntos uno al otro, puedes tomar ventaja de esto y hacerlo "cuasi-activo"

El otro dia estaba dibujandote un diagrama pero ya no lo termine y lo deje en la computadora que estaba ese dia. voy a ver se lo vuelvo hacer y te lo posteo.

D.


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## derickveliz

knifedag007 said:


> Been following this build since page 3, great work!


Thank you!

D.


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## jf_soria81

Derrick, tu crees que me sirva de mucho el procesador h100 o sólo con mi 117 voy bien?


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## derickveliz

jf_soria81 said:


> Derrick, tu crees que me sirva de mucho el procesador h100 o sólo con mi 117 voy bien?


Yo creo que "si" puedes usar solo el 117, vi que tiene Time Correction (Time Alignment) y un poco de equalizacion, mas que suficiente para tener un buen escenario.

Despues puedes postear tus observaciones, muchas veces los problemas que no suena como uno quiere no son por equipo si no por instalacion.

D.


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## jf_soria81

Ok, creo también lo mismo, haré lo que me aconsejas un cuasy activo, pero mi duda es a que frecuencia cortó los midbass en el amplificador,,, y si los 75rms moverán bien esos midbass de 150rms?


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## derickveliz

jf_soria81 said:


> Ok, creo también lo mismo, haré lo que me aconsejas un cuasy activo, pero mi duda es a que frecuencia cortó los midbass en el amplificador,,, y si los 75rms moverán bien esos midbass de 150rms?


Este hobby es a "prueba y error" y si tu objetivo es SQ no creo que tengas problema, y si te sirve de algo, mi nuevo sistema tambien tendra bocinas de 6.5" para los Medios Bajos y les voy a dar 75 watts, lo cual creo que es suficiente. 

D.


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## jf_soria81

Hoy creo que equalizando el parametrico logre un sonido muy agradable. Subi los nivelesde las frecuenxias q reproducen los midbass. Y le baje un poco los niveles que reproducen los medios. 

Que ganaria con los midbass en activo y cortados por wl amplificador? Vale la pena esto. ?


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## derickveliz

jf_soria81 said:


> Hoy creo que equalizando el parametrico logre un sonido muy agradable. Subi los nivelesde las frecuenxias q reproducen los midbass. Y le baje un poco los niveles que reproducen los medios.
> 
> Que ganaria con los midbass en activo y cortados por wl amplificador? Vale la pena esto. ?


Cuales son los x-over actuales que estas usando?

Probaste un RTA? para ver como estan tus tonos?

Como suena el Track de los 7 tambores?

D.


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## jf_soria81

A qué te refieres con los xovers q estoy usando, estoy aún todo en pasivo , con los xovers originales pasivos, del set delantero, y ya le pase el rta del iPad, lo pase con un sonido rosa q encontré en la web, lo que si lo de los tambores nose de dónde sacarlo,


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## derickveliz

jf_soria81 said:


> A qué te refieres con los xovers q estoy usando, estoy aún todo en pasivo , con los xovers originales pasivos, del set delantero, y ya le pase el rta del iPad, lo pase con un sonido rosa q encontré en la web, lo que si lo de los tambores nose de dónde sacarlo,


*Solo estoy tratando de entender tu pregunta anterior, si puedes hacer un esquema de como tenes tu sistema ahora me ayudaria a responderte.

Como salio la grafica del RTA? esta grafica predice como estan los niveles de tu equipo, y donde hay que ajustar...

Mandame un email a derickveliz arroba gmail.com

y te las mando.*

D.


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## jleexfire

saludos derick
mi nombre es juan y te escribo desde panama.
he leido los 36 post que tiene este foro sobre tu carro y tiene bastante teoria y practica interesante. te felicito por la calidad de trabajo y dedicacion. no es cualquier latino que le dedique a este tema ya que los concepto de calidad de sonido en nuestros paises han desaparecido y bueno en mi pais esta por volver "al fin"
te escribo por lo siguiente: tengo un sistema por empezar a armar para una proxima competencia de calidad de sonido con jueces bien profecionales.
mi sistema es asi:
RADIO KENWOOD KDC-X997
PS8 ARC AUDIO
BOCINAS FRONTALES FOCAL K2 POWER KRX3 (3 VIAS)
AMPLIFICADOR AUDIO SYSTEM 160.4 165 X 4 A 4 OHM
AMPLIFICADOR XFIRE AUDIO XMF7.5K (3750WRMS A 1 OHM)
WOOFER XFIRE AUDIO XMF12.22 (DUAL 2 OHM 2000WRMS)

mi pregunta es:
ese juego de 3 vias el pod que trae en caja con el juego recomiendas en los parales "A"? que seria el 3" y el tweeter?
el amplificador 4 canales estara en biamp: canales 1 y 2 para medio y altos.
canal 3 y 4 para los midbass.
el woofer se que es muy grande con eso puedo jugar su ganacia y potencia. solo es para momentos felices jijji.
que recomendacion me das para este sistema con tu experiencia?
mi auto es un yaris hachtback 2006.


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## jleexfire

se me olvidaba algo.
tengo mis puertas delanteras con material dinamat por completo.
bateria xs power.
alternador mechman.
cables y accesorios xfire audio


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## jf_soria81

Bueno derick, te comento que despues de muchas pruebas logre sacar un sonido muy agradable a mi sistema, pasandole el rta me ayudo bastante. Pero mas que todo mi oido hice la mayor parte del trabajo al afinar dia tras dia sonidos q no me gustaban o picos minimos ue habian, pero al final logre altura, clave el escenaio al centro y las puertas insonorizadas las desarme de nuevo para afinar algunas vibraxiones, con esto conseguibq el midbass tenga muy buena presencia, pero ojo que todo lo muevo en pasivo, osea me refiero con sus crossover pasivos de 3 vias, con mi amplificador jl audio xd400/4, pero en bridge a 150 rms x 2.

Te tengo una pregunta bien concreta, tu crees que sonaria mejor o q ganaria o perderia, si en vez de ir en pasivo mis 3 vias con 150x2,,,,,,,,, lo cambiaria haciendo que un semiactivo de tweeter+mid en pasivo con su crossover al canal 1 y 2 y los midbass a los canales 3 y 4 en activo cortado desde el amplificador cada canal con 75rms,


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## derickveliz

Que tal Juan como estas? y muchas gracias por tus palabras.

Fijate que en teoria simple podria decir que cuando trabajas un sistema en "pasivo" los componenetes no deberian de estar a mas de 25-30 cm entre cada uno de ellos... porque? la senial viene desde un solo punto y si la separas tu imagen se separara y pierdes el enfoque.

Si te vas "semi-activo" es mucho mejor para tu imagen, podras centralizar mejor las voces.

Tambien depende mucho de los puntos de cross-over de cada bocina, ya que tienes separados los bajos de tus medios+tweeters.

D.


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## jf_soria81

Derick y dime, influye mucho los slopes en el sonido final ya que al no tener procesador mi amplificador corta los slopes en midbass, mid, tweeter en 12/6/6 respectivamrnte, y no puedo cambiar esto,es muy perjudicial para mi esto?


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## jleexfire

Ok entiendo pero tengo el problema que para kit panel mis piernas afectaria el sonido.
Lo que tenia en mente como vez en mi diagrama es usar los pod de focal en el pilar A con el crossover pasivo 1 y 2y el mid de las puertas sin el pasivo con el canal 3y4.
Hago mis corte con el ps8.
Darle mas fuerza a los medio para que el sonido suba jn poco
Mas.
Que opinas?


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## derickveliz

Los Slopes pueden afectar las bocinas y los puntos de tus cross-overs points
Si no tienes Time/Alignment y EQ creo que va ser muy dificial recrear un Front Stage
Si tus piernas estan entre las bocinas y tu oido izquierdo si produce problemas
Los Medios pueden estar abajo sin ningun problema pero necesitas Time/Alignment para poder recrear el Front Stage, 
No necesitas darle mas fuerza a los medios, mas bien todas las bocinas tienen que estar al mismo nivel para poder reproducir un Front Stage solido.

Cuentame mas sobre el ps8 que capacidades tiene? cuales son tus x-over points para cada bocina

Talves lo mejor seria que hablaramos x telefono, tienes skype? o google talk?

D.


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## jf_soria81

Hola derick te cuento despues de tiempo de postear algo por aca, mi yaris ahora es semiactivo te refresco un poco mi configuración: en los pilares tengo medios y agudos apuntando al medio del auto a la altura del hombro derecho del conductor, y midbass en agujero original de las puertas sin ninguna inclinacion. Mi headunit es la alpine cda117 este cuenta con time alignment pero no doy con la calibracion de esto ya que creo q tengo que aplicar alguna fórmula para esto y me pierdo alli. Podrias darme una ayuda en esto. Componentes dls up36i amplificador jl xd400/4. Seria de gran ayuda tu opinion de xomo ajustar el time alignment. Mi auto yaris 2009 igual al que tenias tu. Gracias de antemano


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## derickveliz

Gusto de saludarte, la mejor forma de ajustar el tiempo es aislando los medios y si puedes apagar los tweeters aunque sea mecanicamente seria mejor, luego pones varias cansiones o sonidos en stereo y empiesas ajustando el tiempo hasta que logras centrar el sonido al centro de el tablero.

Si gustas te mando un par de tracks para que trates de ajustarlo. Dependiendo del x-over en tus tweeters probablemente no es necesario apagarlos, sabes tu este dato? si es mas de 6.3kHz el ajustar el tiempo no es necesario.

Me avisas

D.


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## jf_soria81

Alli esta todas las especificaciones de mis vias. Espero me puedas ayudar con esto. El crossover de loa tweeter creo q dice q eata en 5khz. Es una gran ayuda la q me das. Gracias. Detallame que es lo q tengo q hacer

Specifications	
Woofer size	16,5 cm (6,5")
Midrange size	63 mm (2,5")
Tweeter	UP1i, 28 mm (1,1") silk dome tweeter
Power handling capacity	150 W RMS / 180 W max
Impedance	4 ohm
Frequency range	50 - 20.000 Hz
Sensitivity	88 dB (1W/1m)
Crossover	Filter box with 12/6/6 dB slope
Crossover point (Hz)	500 Hz / 5000 Hz
Size of filter box	145 x 95 x 45 mm ( 5,71 x 3,74 x 1,77")
Outer diameter of woofer	Woofer: 165 mm (6,5") Mid: 100 mm (3,94")
Magnet size	62 mm (2,44") Hybrid ferrit/neodymium
Mounting depth	Woofer: 63 mm ( 2,48") Mid: 25 mm (1")
Mounting hole	Woofer: 140 mm (5,5") Mid: 82 mm (3,23")
EAN Bar code	7331644005704


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## jf_soria81

Seria de gran ayuda esoa tracks para ajustar los tiempos.


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## derickveliz

jf, podrias tomar unas fotos de la pantalla en tu radio cuando ajustas T/A?

escribeme a mi correo electronico y te mando las tracks derickveliz at gmail_punto_com

D.


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## cjbrownco

subscribed


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## derickveliz

It's been a while now!

Sometimes I miss my Yaris... 


but the CLA sounds much better.

*Love the music! specially in 3D
*
D.


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## derickveliz

Sneak peek... ID mini horns and Midbass in kick area...



D.


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## zapcoaudio

looks great


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## knifedag007

Good to see progress with a new car, I was following this thread back when you started the Yaris. I went AWOL for a while.

Love the Mercades


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## derickveliz

knifedag007 said:


> Good to see progress with a new car, I was following this thread back when you started the Yaris. I went AWOL for a while.
> 
> Love the Mercades


Thank you,
D.


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## derickveliz

zapcoaudio said:


> looks great


Thank you,
D.


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