# Selling car audio is 99% marketing and 1% product



## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

As my signature says, selling car audio is 99% marketing and 1% product.

Just a few things off the top of my head that are more marketing based than product based:

Military spec - a term commonly tossed around in the 80s, which is cool if you are putting a sound system in a tank.

Damping Factor - higher equals better but they never told you exactly how or where it was measured.

1w/meter ratings that were played outside the intended pass band of the drivers they were rating like *cough, choke* Kicker Comp subs.

SNR rated at max power where it was better, yet there was no standard until CEA.

Lastly, feel free to continue adding to the list of marketing versus actual product technology.


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## scott2mil (Dec 14, 2010)

Who cares about sound quality anymore when MP3 has dominated the market. Its all about appearance and cheaper prices for a majority of manufactures. In fact so many of these companies aren't even manufactures, they're just middlemen who market the product made overseas.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

ChrisB said:


> As my signature says, selling car audio is 99% marketing and 1% product.
> 
> Just a few things off the top of my head that are more marketing based than product based:
> 
> ...


Can be, but doesn't have to be. Audio has always been portrayed as "art" rather than science. I remember a well known company suggesting during a training when I was a retail installer that natural cone materials were better for reproducing the "natural" sounds of acoustic music. That was a crock and so are the points above.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Can be, but doesn't have to be. Audio has always been portrayed as "art" rather than science. I remember a well known company suggesting during a training when I was a retail installer that natural cone materials were better for reproducing the "natural" sounds of acoustic music. That was a crock and so are the points above.


JVC with their wooden cone drivers?

I really like Kenwood's "noiseless sound" which is a feature of their underseat woofers.

A lot of it is "marketing", but a lot of that depends on the company and what market they are persuing. Unfortunately most of the marketing that is done is for people who are already into car audio-next to nothing to encourage new customers into the market in the way of TV or press.

Vibe is probably the UK's best marketed car audio brand, with a huge presence at car shows, slick looking products (even a range called Slick) and good ads in related press. It's the name I'm always asked for by the 17yr old demographic, but alas most of their products that I have heard I wouldn't purchase.

Seems that everything is just marketing these days; Beats By Dre laptops, Fender Audio systems in VWs, TA in monster cables...


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## xxlbeerz (Dec 9, 2010)

I would much rather have a board constructed in accordance MIL, IPC, CE, etc. specifications. There is a definite difference in reliability, life cycle, etc.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

xxlbeerz said:


> I would much rather have a board constructed in accordance MIL, IPC, CE, etc. specifications. There is a definite difference in reliability, life cycle, etc.


Yes BUT... At that point in time most, if not ALL, of the "Made in the USA" amplifier manufacturers utilized MIL Spec boards. Since the playing field was somewhat level back then, it was nothing more than marketing jargon.


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## viviorunitia88 (Dec 28, 2010)

its very true


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

ChrisB said:


> Yes BUT... At that point in time most, if not ALL, of the "Made in the USA" amplifier manufacturers utilized MIL Spec boards. Since the playing field was somewhat level back then, it was nothing more than marketing jargon.


Geez, Chris - you're starting to sound like _me.

_There are exceptions. Any amplifier you see with a single sided FR-1/CEM-1 board is NOT mil-spec. They are often colored with soldermask and are 2 layer, but use jumpers between layers as it in incapable of supporting vias.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Yeah, I kind of became bitter towards the car audio industry in general due to the bull that I was once fed and once believed in. Granted, I'll admit that there are some great products out there that live up to the hype. Thinking along the same line, there are also a lot of overpriced items out there that miss the mark completely and utilize snake oil marketing jargon to make up for it. It's tough to find those diamonds in a sea of sewage.


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## ikari2_2000 (Dec 30, 2010)

scott2mil said:


> Who cares about sound quality anymore when MP3 has dominated the market. Its all about appearance and cheaper prices for a majority of manufactures. In fact so many of these companies aren't even manufactures, they're just middlemen who market the product made overseas.


I was pretty surprised by the current prices of CD head units. My old Pioneer Premier, I paid about $500 6 years ago, finally died and I had to buy a new one. Looking around for a new one, they're all averaging ~$250 or less. I don't feel like I can trust any brand anymore. Current selections all look cheap.


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## warrior86 (Mar 8, 2011)

ikari2_2000 said:


> I was pretty surprised by the current prices of CD head units. My old Pioneer Premier, I paid about $500 6 years ago, finally died and I had to buy a new one. Looking around for a new one, they're all averaging ~$250 or less. I don't feel like I can trust any brand anymore. Current selections all look cheap.


Yea, the current selections now just dont look good. I agree. Not a fan of USB ports on the front and the TXT screens looks even more cheap at times.


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

I think the internet did more harm to audio than anything else. Sure, the marketers slapped all sorts of goofy numbers on boxes, maybe some dancing lights, and pushed specs over audio...but how did they get away with that?

Buying sight unseen; people started to spec shop. Find the biggest/best #'s on a box, search the web, and buy it. If quality, something that cannot be quantified, were something to be marketed...all it would take is one company saying they're better b/c of such-n-such spec. It's human nature to want the most for your money. Internet buying didn't help this at all. 

When I worked in car audio all it took to sell an Eclipse radio was a 10s demo. Play a song on the bottom-of-the-line Eclipse and pick the highest dollar HU from another brand. Bam, another Eclipse customer. 

You'd never hear the difference if you looked at an owner's manual. 

I got out of the industry just as Eclipse started introducing MP3 capability on some of their HU's and their speaker line went from simple & classy to faux chrome. Seems the bean counters thought pushing more product instead of better product would be the wiser choice. How'd that turn out?

What I saw happening back then was a schism of sorts; low-fi (blister pack garbage with neons all over it) and hi-fi (boutique products). The stuff in the middle has slowly gone away; either swallowed by a bigger fish (a/d/s/ -> DEI), trending downmarket (Rockford), or going more upscale (Focal). 

The people who spec shop and are most susceptible to marketing gimmicks are not coincidentally the buyers on opposite sides of the spectrum. The guy with 2 nickels to rub together wants the most for his $$$, so he buys the 400w CD player instead of the one that's rated @ 15x4. The audiophile with more $$$ than sense will spend ridiculous amounts of money on useless crap and snake oil in the name of fidelity. The Monster Cable guy has made how many millions from his bogus claims? 

With that in mind, is there really a shortage of boutique/hi-end/expensive stuff on the market? I don't think so. There's probably a couple dozen companies that'll sell you speakers for over $1k, subs for over $1k, HUs for over $1k, and interconnects for over $1k. You can shop at PepBoys, WalMart, or a flea-market and get yourself a 5 billion-watt amp kit for $25. 

But where's the stuff in the middle? I dunno where that stuff went as a lot of stuff has either gone in the toilet or has moved out of the price range of many people. The internet played a huge part in this...I think so anyway. The marketing people & hype machines just took advantage of an opportunity ('net shopping) and ran with it. I can't blame them as I'd do the same damn thing.


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## brett (Apr 27, 2005)

bluliner, i think you nailed it. i used to go to the local shops and actually audition the gear. however, i was only exposed to the short list of products they carried and was uneducated and naive therefor a perfect target for their salespitch. the best thing that has happened to me was to find ECA back in the day and read, and learn and read and learn. and, to just try things (trial and error) to find out what worked and what didn't. i personally think its the responsibility of the veterans and gurus on sites like this to offer audio salvation for those who are seeking it. because, as much as people are buying on the net, they are also researching on the net and places like this have to be the ambassadors of good information and testimonials from unbiased reports. there has to be a renaissance of sound, or and audio crusades of sorts to battle all the bullsh1t out there. stereo shops should be more like missions instead of retail shops; they should be preaching the gospel of sound! we need to get our priorities straight and trust our ears instead of our eyes.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Interesting read...

Anyone ever go watch any YouTube videos from car audio shows down in south America? These guys install huge systems that fold out of the back of a van like optimus prime. Were talking 32 6x9s, a 75" subwoofer, 20 tweeters, and dozens of other speaker sizes all jammed into rear doors and rear walls for novelty effect. They might even have a DJ booth that folds out of the bumper and often display fireworks at their sound offs! The funniest thing is these whole system might be Sony XPlod, Dual, or some other bargain bin junk. It's hilarious, and it's coming here!


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

I'm with Bluliner, since the advent of the internet there's been a shift in products as manufacturers started to focus on price/spec andno longer on sound. The market is largely kids with no idea what they're buying or why they need it.

Sony, of the BIG brands, were the 1st to sell out, but because they did everyone else had to follow or lose sales to them. Of all the big brands it's only really Alpine and Pioneer who have kept a middle and upper level of equipment, though pioneer have stopped doing their PRS range in the UK so just entry and the £1000.00 per driver. Kenwood do some nice HU and amps, speakers and subs have nothing of note. JVC do some good AV but not much else, Panasonic dissapeared, Clarion have stopped doing middle to hi-end in the UK, we never really got Eclipse 

For my customers there's a huge jump from "okay" to "excellent speakers" which means; my boss won't stock/demo the excellent stuff (fortunately I get discount so am installing some Dyns in my car which I will demo) and people don't get to hear the great stuff-until my car is done anyway! There are 4 dealers in my immediate area, none demo anything more than £150 rrp speakers

I fear that the UK will soon become a land of "best buys" with people like me having to buy soley on reputation and recommendation-or the online specs


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

The Baron Groog said:


> I'm with Bluliner, since the advent of the internet there's been a shift in products as manufacturers started to focus on price/spec andno longer on sound. The market is largely kids with no idea what they're buying or why they need it.


I really don't know how a mom & pop audio dealer can survive unless they have years of building a good reputation behind them. 

They cannot compete on overhead with a warehouse/drop-ship internet seller. The money needed for insurance & the costs associated with hiring installers/salesmen far exceed a warehouse you can rent for $0.30 a square foot. Furthermore, the little audio shop does not have the purchasing power of a 'big box' retailer or the monstrosity that is Walmart. Not even close. So their costs are higher and since there isn't a big-ass red cross in front, those costs are passed on to the end user. If you live in a place where there are high sales taxes, you're might be getting an additional 10% off if you shop online. 

I've been looking at purchasing a Boston SPG555. They're just under $350 shipped via eBay. They're $700 from Crutchfield and the closest dealer to me that might accidentally have one in stock is a 5hr drive away. 

In this case, why would a rational person spend $700 at Crutchfield or drive 400miles to spend $700+tax on something they can buy on-line and have shipped to their door for 50 cents on the dollar? 

I've never heard it. Ts parameters have always been witchcraft to me and power handling is meaningless (I've never smoked a sub). Warranty? Boston warranties anything and that sub has a removable coil. 

I seriously cannot think of 1 good reason to buy this subwoofer off of Crutchfield or have a dealer close to me special order one for $700 & no return/refund. 

Hello internet! 

....

If I was in the market to spend $2500 on a pair of woofers; I'd be damn sure I heard the thing first. I'd also do as much research, talk to the OEM, and pick the brains of the sales staff. I'd also feel the need to spend at least that much on an amp. Do you go out in your Hugo suit and wear a pair of Hush Puppies? Hell no...so why would you run a your high-dollar drivers with cheap crap. Oh...and I need interconnects. Nordost, Kimber, I'd try it all...

Can't buy this kinda stuff online...not easily at least. 

What's really shocking is that it is easier for me to see, touch, hear, and buy $100,000 worth of Dynaudio equipment than it is for me to hear 1 Boston woofer.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

ChrisB said:


> Yeah, I kind of became bitter towards the car audio industry in general due to the bull that I was once fed and once believed in. Granted, I'll admit that there are some great products out there that live up to the hype. Thinking along the same line, there are also a lot of overpriced items out there that miss the mark completely and utilize snake oil marketing jargon to make up for it. It's tough to find those diamonds in a sea of sewage.


Chris, what did you once believe that you now don't? I imagine amplifiers are in the mix somewhere?


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Oh, the internet has been great short term for the consumer, cheaper prices, no 5hr drive (though in the UK that would put me in France but ultimately it's all going to come down to a few big dealers who, with no competition, can then sell what they want for the price they want.

In the UK we have Four-Masters FOUR :: Car Hi-fi & In car Entertainment - ICE specialists who help out the smaller B+M dealers by having a good web presence and pushing business their way, hopefully keeping the B+M flag flying longer.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

I just repaired a THA Blaupunkt, a 400rms mono. It had vias in it, damn things. Also used Tip36C outputs, found in some great old school amps. I was surprised as I don't recall them being particularly expensive but not sure. It was the silver flat alum case with rounded sides. It also had extra filters on the rails and stuff like that, was class AB. I ran it at 30A on a sine for 10 min and it got up to 109F on top lol. It was blown, but I don't know why and don't want to see it again that is 12 outputs with 3 legs each.
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-5cWuIXavjQO/p_023THA1350/Blaupunkt-THA1350.html


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## mrflamboynt (Apr 23, 2011)

here is one of my favorites! HUGE motor, HUGE 4" coil, and a WHOPPING 0.3" one-way X-max, thanks to a 6" diameter spider..... lol, if someone reconed one of these with a decent basket and suspension, they might have a decent sub.

i remember 2003, the TREO rep filled the shop owners head with silly Xmax claims, then we hook em up and the spiders werent much better than the ones on the SPL sub (mainly 4" coil TREOs). and the TREO stuff was WAYY expensive..... i was mad. dont get me wrong, TREO was [email protected]$$, but they lied about their xmax specs just to sell more stuff, NOT COOL!


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## mrflamboynt (Apr 23, 2011)

Bluliner said:


> I really don't know how a mom & pop audio dealer can survive unless they have years of building a good reputation behind them.
> 
> They cannot compete on overhead with a warehouse/drop-ship internet seller. The money needed for insurance & the costs associated with hiring installers/salesmen far exceed a warehouse you can rent for $0.30 a square foot. Furthermore, the little audio shop does not have the purchasing power of a 'big box' retailer or the monstrosity that is Walmart. Not even close. So their costs are higher and since there isn't a big-ass red cross in front, those costs are passed on to the end user. If you live in a place where there are high sales taxes, you're might be getting an additional 10% off if you shop online.
> 
> ...


if you can get it half price, then you dont need to hear it first..... once you get it, you install it. and just like any other component in the system, installation makes the biggest difference. after messing with it, if you cannot get it tuned to your tastes, or the product is not satisfactory to your criteria, then you can sell it for nearly what you paid, or at minimal loss at most. 

BTW, i too have never cooked a sub, EXCEPT for Boston 12.5 LF.... i would get those things faulty out of the box, one after the other.... others would be damaged after 15 minutes of use. had nothing but problems, and they were $300 a pop from Magnolia Hi-Fi (expensive, higher-end retail store in Pac. NW) most of the time they warantied the faulty sub, but once or twice they did not because the coil was damaged. even though they were the ones to adjust the gains, even when they said it was set at levels i could not damage anything no matter how high i turned up the volume. but they would still "blow", and no i was not distorting anything!!!! 
it was this experience, of paying $2,500-$3,000 after tax and labor, for absolute GARBAGE! thats what inspired me to research on the internet, and learn from people with degrees in electronics, INSTEAD of lying, cheating sales people at the stores.

so in essence, it was the fault of the big-box stores that drove me into the arms of the internet..... where i found loving, caring, intelligent forum members, and SMOKIN deals on "GOOD" equipment.

then there was the birth of small garage/basement vendors............


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Bluliner said:


> I really don't know how a mom & pop audio dealer can survive unless they have years of building a good reputation behind them.


That's because asking the wrong question. The _right_ question is, given that the underlying market dynamics have changed, how (if at all) can a "mom & pop audio dealer" offer value added?

The obvious answer is design/tuning services, as well as taking on complicated installs. But you go into a shop, ask about a basic, foundational concept in serious audio (say, spatially averaged measurements) and the person gives a quizzical look...what about that experience tells you that you're not better off buying from a warehouse selling through eBay?

A smaller market than shops had 15 years ago (though 15 years ago some of us were buying our Denon headunits and KEF KAR speakers from mail-order venders...) but perhaps a viable one. More viable, at any rate, than trying to compete selling parts at higher prices than the prevailing market rate.



Bluliner said:


> Do you go out in your Hugo suit and wear a pair of Hush Puppies?


Dunno. I don't own any suits that poorly made. 

Well, one old Baldarassini (sp?) Hugo Boss linen suit, but that line was made largely by hand, by Caruso I believe.

No Hush Puppies either, admittedly, but they don't strike me as any worse than any other inexpensive casual shoes. One can't expect J.M. Weston or Edward Green quality at the prices they charge.

However, last weekend I went out wearing a black peak-lapel Tom Ford for YSL Rive Gauche sportcoat with smoked mother-of-pearl buttons, white linen Charvet shirt, JLC Reverso Grande Taille watch, red cotton/linen Loro Piana jeans...and light blue canvas Fred Perry sneakers I bought for $17 at Neiman's Last Call two summers ago. Does that count?



Bluliner said:


> Hell no...so why would you run a your high-dollar drivers with cheap crap.


Because the electronics (and certainly wires) are commodity parts that make no sonic difference whatsoever. Drive unit quality does matter, though.


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## Evil Ryu (May 25, 2011)

back in the day, when you had pre-china MB Quart components, pre-dei PPI amps, JL Audio subs...and you had respect on the block man...RESPECT.

lol


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## Salad Fingers (Jun 14, 2009)

DS-21 said:


> However, last weekend I went out wearing a black peak-lapel Tom Ford for YSL Rive Gauche sportcoat with smoked mother-of-pearl buttons, white linen Charvet shirt, JLC Reverso Grande Taille watch, red cotton/linen Loro Piana jeans...and light blue canvas Fred Perry sneakers I bought for $17 at Neiman's Last Call two summers ago. Does that count?


Holy ****, are you Patrick Bateman from American Psycho? What kind of paper and bone print is your business card? :laugh:

Just kidding, but I have no idea wtf you are talking about!! Guess that's because I go out wearing black shorts and a death metal band shirt.


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## Minus (-) (Jun 26, 2011)

Still Learning thru trail n error....respecting all these opinions tho


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

Last time I went to Best Buy you could listen to what they offered, though not much high end stuff there. Here WMT is trying to run BB out, every WMT has a big TV/electronics section but not much car audio. Here the BB moved to a far smaller building and some say will go the way of circuit city. I have not even been in that store, not been to a BB in years, last time I shopped for a cheap TV they were 20% higher than another place for an identical unit, wth.

On the other hand anyone can call up China and have an amp made with an off the shelf design the works fine....and put any name on it. That is what happens when you have NAFTA, and with slave labor like that you will not see anyone make an amp here in the US. Some day cars will be the same way.


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## rain27 (Jan 15, 2009)

sqshoestring said:


> Last time I went to Best Buy you could listen to what they offered, though not much high end stuff there. Here WMT is trying to run BB out, every WMT has a big TV/electronics section but not much car audio. Here the BB moved to a far smaller building and some say will go the way of circuit city. I have not even been in that store, not been to a BB in years, last time I shopped for a cheap TV they were 20% higher than another place for an identical unit, wth.
> 
> On the other hand anyone can call up China and have an amp made with an off the shelf design the works fine....and put any name on it. That is what happens when you have NAFTA, and with slave labor like that you will not see anyone make an amp here in the US. Some day cars will be the same way.


Aren't there already companies that claim to have their amps built in the US?

And cars are a different story. There are so many regulations for initial quality and safety, that the cheap stuff is outlawed in the US. China is already making cars, but the quality and safety of those are so poor that they would never be allowed here. There is no regulation for amp quality.


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

rain27 said:


> Aren't there already companies that claim to have their amps built in the US?
> 
> And cars are a different story. There are so many regulations for initial quality and safety, that the cheap stuff is outlawed in the US. China is already making cars, but the quality and safety of those are so poor that they would never be allowed here. There is no regulation for amp quality.


USA made amps? Not that I know. Last I heard like one or two tiny companies made amps here and Zapco or someone was the last one out.

Think about it, GM is doing well because they sell so many cars in China. *More* cars are sold in China than here in the USA. Many parts are already made in China. Sure you will get final assembly here just like Toyota to stay away from the tariffs, but everything else will be made in China. UK did it many years ago and it will happen here if nothing changes. Take a look at Hyundai, they are doing very well here but the strange part is they make a lot of their vehicles here....but that says nothing about where the components come from.

Another aspect is I talked to an amp guru once who made his own amp. I said can't you do automated runs of SMD boards cheap here? (Because the cheapest amps you can buy are actually made by hand thru-hole in China) He said yes you can, but you still need to put the large components on by hand. The problem he said, is SMD boards here are more expensive than hand labor in China. America always won by doing it smarter and with better equipment, but what does that tell you?


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## PottersField (Mar 18, 2011)

Interesting read.

When I graduated high school, back in 98, I moved to Omaha. I can remember places like Stereo West and Metro Audio Dynamics, 4Tec, and a few other shops. Then there was Best Buy and even they were selling Fosgate, Vega, etc. Fast forward to today and I walk into Best Buy and see junk. Walk into one of the local boutiques and find the same junk with a few "better" products scattered here and there.

I'll admit, I've become a "spec buyer" of sorts. I do my research and audition products as much as I can but honestly, I've been left with sorting through miles and miles of reviews from other buyers to decide what to buy. It's just the way things are these days.

I'll also admit I'm not afraid to buy from Best Buy or some internet warehouse, so long as I've done that research. I bought my Polk amps from Best Buy and I'm perfectly happy with them. My chinese-made MB Quarts sound fine to me, and my Pioneer Champion sub sounds tight and clean and auto-adjusts my rear-view mirror if I ask it to.

Now, none of this is to say I wouldn't mind having the high-end stuff that the fine users of this website so often lust after, but without having heard of places like this I'd probably never have even heard of some of those companies.


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## S3T (Sep 21, 2008)

car audio is 99% marketing and 1% product
^^ This statement is true for price too ^^

A week ago i had some sinfoni preamp with transparent cover, so i had opportunity to check it's guts.
What do we have there? The most pricier thing is ALPS RK27 moto pot.
3x takamisawa relays
7x NE5532 opamps
1x MCU
bunch of WIMA MKS caps
bunch of simple rubycon caps
SMPS PSU
+ a few transistors, probably for controlling relays

Packed in really nice enclosure.

Looks like $50-$100 product, depends on marketing tricks, if packed in simple enclosure.

Yet... How much does it retails for? $2000.
1900$ worth of looks.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

Looks like the same methodology applies to Home Audio too. Thanks to this forum I found out that the Gemme Tanto home speakers contain one Silver Flute W17RC38-08 driver and one Vifa XT19 ring radiator tweeter.

If my math is correct, that is about $124.50 in raw driver cost without shipping versus the complete package that sells for $5,500 to the home audiophile enthusiast.


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## cleansoundz (May 14, 2008)

What kills me these days is how they review amplifiers. One review for the RF T600-2 said that RF took a page from the other companies and decided to limit the power of the amp slightly before going into thermal protection. This was about 3 years ago when the review was made. Funny thing is I looked at some RF brochures about 15 years ago in the mid 90's and they listed this same feature. 

I think these reviewers forget that some of the people who read those reviews have been around a long time and are not stupid. They try to readvertise a features like military spec circuit boards, low tolerance components, aluminum extruded heatsink, gold plated power connectors to protect from errosion, etc, etc. Same ole same ole, different decade.


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## bigdaddy'76 (Nov 29, 2010)

sqshoestring said:


> USA made amps? Not that I know. Last I heard like one or two tiny companies made amps here and Zapco or someone was the last one out.



TRU Technology is totally made in the USA. Actually, in California to be more specific!!


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## phryed (Aug 5, 2011)

agreed with audio in general specs are basically useless. therefore it becomes a marketing game to sell product and increase brand recognition. i think its been like this for a long time. the internet may or may not be helping this. it all depends on how educated the consumer is.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

S3T said:


> car audio is 99% marketing and 1% product
> ^^ This statement is true for price too ^^
> 
> A week ago i had some sinfoni preamp with transparent cover, so i had opportunity to check it's guts.
> ...


Whoa 12bucks for a pot. How many did it have? Dont forget the etched plexi cover that costs a lot to do.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

S3T said:


> car audio is 99% marketing and 1% product
> ^^ This statement is true for price too ^^
> 
> A week ago i had some sinfoni preamp with transparent cover, so i had opportunity to check it's guts.
> ...


 You're absolutely right. I imagine a bunch of 12yr olds could purchase these parts ( not knowing why of course) through them in a box, shake it up and viola ! Preamp is built ! Ahh yea, if only it were that easy.


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## The Baron Groog (Mar 15, 2010)

Need to sell something or just wasting your and our time with your ramblings?


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## S3T (Sep 21, 2008)

TrickyRicky said:


> Whoa 12bucks for a pot. How many did it have? Dont forget the etched plexi cover that costs a lot to do.


Just a single pot in the middle of PCB.
It spins sloooowly from the remote control.





6spdcoupe said:


> You're absolutely right. I imagine a bunch of 12yr olds could purchase these parts ( not knowing why of course) through them in a box, shake it up and viola ! Preamp is built ! Ahh yea, if only it were that easy.


Actually, 12yr olds could use RCA-RCA jumpers with better performance.
You can use a rotary switch for input selection.

Opamp buffer is the simplest thing you can "design". Add input and output caps plus potentiometer in between these buffers and you have designed sinfoni preamp.
Another project is MCU + relay/motor drivers, which is a bit complex. You'll need programming skills plus H-bridge driver IC.
And the most tought thing is to build SMPS - you take some SMPS controller with integrated transistor, and follow the datasheet/application notes. For such an easy load, it will suffice, and won't have issues with PCB layout.



From Sinfoni's amp datasheet:


> The input load is 48Kohms, and its sensitivity is adjustable from 400 mV to 10 V; therefore it perfectly matches any source, including those that provide a 10 V pre out.


It means no preamp is required. Yet, afaik, they usually try to sell these preamps "for better performance". What performance? 

Ah, input selectors... Why would you need this?
- Turntable
- CD
- Tape
- Tuner
...

These inputs are stereo. What would you do if you have 4 RCAs on the HU with fader?


Looks like 100% marketing to me


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## Vital (Feb 23, 2010)

Show me successful market/business that isn't based on marketing for the most part


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## Ayanna (Aug 12, 2011)

viviorunitia88 said:


> its very true


yes it is


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

If a company wants to make a NEW product they do have to hire engineers to design and test the product until it meets the design goals. They have to find suppliers, set up production maybe tooling and whatever, etc. They mark up the product to recoup those costs which can be significant with a low cost product. However if you are selling the product for twice or more the average cost of similar ones....well you are doing great.

If anyone thinks that car and much home audio is complicated, whip the cover off that phone in your pocket and take a look. Most audio is WAY behind the curve to be cheap to produce. But I was looking at an alpine amp a few years old, their normal class D model not the PDX, and I counted 4 layers in the board I was very surprised.


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## putergod (Apr 23, 2008)

bigdaddy'76 said:


> TRU Technology is totally made in the USA. Actually, in California to be more specific!!


And Mmats amplifiers are still made in FL.


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## TXwrxWagon (Sep 26, 2008)

Very interesting read.... 

1. All the engineers need to just quit puking op-amp specs, transistor2 this, or mil-spec that... 99% of the world doesn't understand what the hell you pocket protector is preaching about so....hmmm.. STFU....

2. *SALES does NOT = lies on the sales floor*... I have been on the Car and home audio sales floor for over 25 years. I don't use marketing hype/BS/propaganda or hood-winks to sell audio... Everyone needs to understand some simple truths to selling audio:

A. *The customer's ears NEVER lie*. I can choose the best music, the best amp, the best receiver, the best sub, but the bottom line is, the EARS NEVER LIE.

B. *Music FORMAT* has changed the perception of what "excellent audio" is. MP3/i-crap/burned this/ripped that... its changed the reality of the EAR of the consumer. *The average consumer judges sound quality based on the ear buds they have around their neck.*

C. *System building is a completely LOST art.* We build subwoofer systems backwards: I want woofer A... not my car/home is this, what will perform best in it. We choose mobile speakers based on BRAND or specs not sound quality or performance based on the rest of the budget or system parameters.

D. *BUDGET:* sorry Milwaukee Light drinkers don't have Dom $$ LOGIC.. If I know a customer has $200 in the budget for Components, I am not looking at even demoing Focal, HAT, Alpine Ref, etc

E. *MUSIC: *what are they listening too? The music they listen too gives an immediate clue as to hundreds of decisions... Listening levels, quality of recording, range of frequencies needs. Not to mention the above 4 other issues... 


3. Its all a big puzzle the BEST people on the sales floor to mix it all together and figure out what the average consumer has no CLUE how to get where she/he wants to be, car, home, boat, or remote Alpine Monestrary needing a sound upgrade for chants.

Brick and Mortar locations deal with the internet in one simple way: Value added basics and knowledge. If every person in the store is not speaking the same language... the customers are going to come in, audition product, make a decision, walk out and buy online... Poo-Hoo... WAAAAAAA!... They should be the expert, they should be at the absolute TOP of the product knowledge game. (PKG) they should be the ultimate PKG.

Sorry, but its really not about marketing hype with the retailer (aka Mom & pop's) if they take it seriously.

One of my many jobs is I am a secret shopper. I grade/rate businesses, restaurants, shops, and anything else for the quality of not only SERVICE, but knowledge, expertise, persuasiveness, and what ever the parent company wants to gauge. 

Sales does NOT = Marketing hype.... MARKETING = Consumer INTEREST....

Don't hate the playa, hate the game... 

Rob


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## Florida Rep (Aug 12, 2011)

TXwrxWagon said:


> Very interesting read....
> 
> 1. All the engineers need to just quit puking op-amp specs, transistor2 this, or mil-spec that... 99% of the world doesn't understand what the hell you pocket protector is preaching about so....hmmm.. STFU....
> 
> ...




Perfect!!!


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