# Optimizing my beginner system



## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Hi, all! 

A few questions: I'm working on optimizing the settings on my new system. Using the Pioneer 2600NEX I have it configured for "networking mode" which allows me to independently control the tweeters and woofers of my components as high/mid with my sub as low. Rear speakers are disabled (might hook them up to the HU directly once I have the rest dialed in). Doing it this way is very weird to me, and I didn't notice much improvement in sound quality initially, but when I went into someone else's car and heard the regular front/rear car setup it was almost grating how much worse the imaging is. 

300x4 RMS amp for the front channels, 5.25" woofers (going to try upgrading to 6.5" once I figure out how to modify my dash) with 1" tweeters. 

*Crossovers*:

Highs: HPF set at 6.3kHz with -12dB/oct slope

Mids: LPF set at 4kHz with -24dB/oct slope
HPF set at 63Hz with -24dB/oct slope

Sub: LPF set at 80kHz with -24dB/oct slope. 

I set these up not from any guide by purely listening by ear. The split between the highs and mids was to eliminate a rather grating sibilance and sharp/overly bright cymbal crash. 

For *time alignment* I tried with exact measuring tape numbers inputted in inches. I also tried one of the guides posted here and isolated the mids w/ sub and scanned until I heard the Doppler Effect and found the middle spot between the two. The second method yielded better imaging. 

*EQ* is currently set to flat. I've tinkered with a phone app RTA and no adjustments I made had any impact on the curve. Whenever I cut anything it seems like it doesn't help with any issue and tends to make the music less enjoyable. Not sure how to set that up, but I do have a Pioneer testing mic coming in and will try the AutoEQ feature. 

My speakers do have independent channel *volume adjustments*. Front driver high set to -1dB, front passenger high set to 0dB, driver mid set to 3dB, passenger mid set to 3dB, sub set to 1dB. This was also purely by ear to deal with overly bright tweeters and to improve the soundstage. 

*My goals*:

I want better imaging. I have it where the soundstage is at least in front of me instead of right behind my head. It seems like the vocalist is singing from the center of the dash, the instruments are more diffuse. The vocalist doesn't seem to have a solid point where I can identify an exact location, but across a 1 ft or so area. I'm not sure if that's normal, or at least normal not using a high-end DSP. 

*Questions*:

Is there a good way to set an EQ without relying purely by ear? I don't have a fancy mic to use, though I'll get one after I get better equipment. Right now I'm budgeting for good sound treatment for the vehicle before any other toys. 

Is there anything I can do to improve my soundstage imaging? It's in front now, it's at least at the height of the top of the dash, it's just that the vocalist isn't exactly staged and the other instruments are hard to place. 

Any suggestions for settings adjustments? 

I appreciate any feedback on this!


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## Dwarteacher (Oct 17, 2020)

Ok, I will take a stab at this.
Your tweeter is crossed too high compared to your mid-woofer. I am not familiar with speaker layout in a jeep wrangler, but most factory locations are not ideal for crossing mid-woofer at 4000hz. Most Midwoofer has cone breakup at those frequencies ( you want to avoid that).
I don't know how low your tweeter plays, but if you post your speaker brand and model numbers, we can look up the specs to find out.
There are overlapping frequencies between your sub and mid-woofer. I'm unsure without knowing the specs of the woofer if they can play that low; being a 5.25" woofer, chances are high they cant.
As far as time alignment goes, after reviewing the manual, it doesn't state if the time should be entered in inches or milliseconds, but I will assume it's inches since it states to measure and input distance. There is an auto EQ and Time alignment feature within your head unit; see pages 85-89 for more details.
To get an accurate sound stage, time alignment alone is not enough; you need to adjust and match each frequency response from the left and right to build an accurate stage. That's where a DSP comes in. You can get close without a DSP, but you will have a wondering stage. If you are fine with that, then no worries.

So first thing first, we need to know your speaker specifications that way, we can at least give you basic crossover points. They won't be ideal unless we can see your speaker's response. That's where a measurement microphone comes in, along with an RTA software. Parts Express sells a mini microphone you can use with your phone or tablet, which I will link below. An RTA software can be found in your app store. I don't use a phone app RTA, but I'm sure others can give suggestions on which to use. If you decide to go the DSP route, a Umik 1, Dayton emm6 measurement microphone are good options, along with REW software.








Home







www.parts-express.com


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

You are playing your mids too low, I wouldn't even run most 6.5's down to 63hz. A 5.25 should be crossed around 100hz, I run pretty much all of my 6.5's down to 80hz. You may be able to run them down to 80hz, but 63hz is too low and you'll have too much distortion at higher volumes.

Your tweeter/mid crossovers aren't great either. If you can only play your tweeters down to 6.3khz, then raise your mids to that point. Use 24dB slopes everywhere. 

Time alignment with a measuring tape works perfectly well. The only thing you may need to consider is whether your head unit wants you to enter the actual measurements, or make the calculations for delay. If you've got that mixed up then your delays will be off. Double check the manual to see how you're supposed to enter the time alignment, take measurements with a measuring tape as accurately as you can, write those numbers down, and you're basically done once you know how the head unit wants you to enter the numbers. 

Once you get those things figured out, and balance the output of the left and right side speakers appropriately your staging will be pretty good. Without independent EQ for each channel, or left and right, the best you can do is apply general EQ to the entire curve, it's not ideal, but with everything done you'll have very good results. You won't get a pinpoint center unless you have EQ available for each speaker.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Dwarteacher said:


> Ok, I will take a stab at this.
> Your tweeter is crossed too high compared to your mid-woofer. I am not familiar with speaker layout in a jeep wrangler, but most factory locations are not ideal for crossing mid-woofer at 4000hz. Most Midwoofer has cone breakup at those frequencies ( you want to avoid that).
> I don't know how low your tweeter plays, but if you post your speaker brand and model numbers, we can look up the specs to find out.
> There are overlapping frequencies between your sub and mid-woofer. I'm unsure without knowing the specs of the woofer if they can play that low; being a 5.25" woofer, chances are high they cant.
> ...


This is the component set I have:









NVX VSP525KIT 250W RMS 5.25" V-Series 2-Way Component Speakers


NVX VSP525KIT • 750W Peak 250W RMS 5.25" V-Series 2-Way Component Speaker System with 25mm Silk Dome Tweeters • 375 watts Peak Each 125 watts RMS Each • 1" Silk Dome Tweeters • Polypropylene cone material • Impedance: 4 ohms • Sensitivity: 86 dB • Mounting Depth: 2.04"




www.sonicelectronix.com






Peak Power Handling 225 watts
RMS Power Handling 75 watts
Sensitivity 90 dB
Frequency Response 2000 - 20000 Hz
Impedance (Per Voice Coil) 4 ohms
Top-Mount Depth 1-1/4"
Cutout Dimensions 2-1/16 x 2-1/16 


I was looking at this unit for a DSP:









DM-608 | AudioControl


Shares Facebook Twitter 21 Pinterest Google+




www.audiocontrol.com





But it's out of my budget for a bit. I'll look up the ones you recommended.

I wanted to have my sub's LPF up higher, but it starts to sound pretty wretched at or above 100kHz. Not sure why, no reason that I can pinpoint.

I'll look into the microphone. My cell phone's mic gives me no useful information.

The AutoEQ feature requires a measurement mic which I just ordered today and will be here in a week. I hope that does offer some increased sound quality. The acoustics of my Jeep are pretty rough. I included a picture of what the driver's side speaker setup is. The 5.25 is in the dash, the tweeter is right above the dash on the A-pillar. I was thinking earlier about cutting a hole in the door and fitting my 6.5 woofer in there, but I'm not sure just yet. 

Thank you for the feedback so far!


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

gijoe said:


> You are playing your mids too low, I wouldn't even run most 6.5's down to 63hz. A 5.25 should be crossed around 100hz, I run pretty much all of my 6.5's down to 80hz. You may be able to run them down to 80hz, but 63hz is too low and you'll have too much distortion at higher volumes.
> 
> Your tweeter/mid crossovers aren't great either. If you can only play your tweeters down to 6.3khz, then raise your mids to that point. Use 24dB slopes everywhere.
> 
> ...


Alright, I'll play with changing the slopes, raising the HPF on my 5.25s. When I lowered the HPF on the tweeters it made them sound really harsh. Cymbal crashing and sibilance were so emphasized that it actually hurt my ears a bit at higher volumes. Not sure how to address that. 

The HU shows the measurements are in inches. When I did it by ear the settings I found were almost the same as the tape measurements, so I think I'm okay there. 

I'm not sure what to do with the EQ just yet. I have the measuring mic for my HU ordered, it won't be here for a week or so.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> Alright, I'll play with changing the slopes, raising the HPF on my 5.25s. When I lowered the HPF on the tweeters it made them sound really harsh. Cymbal crashing and sibilance were so emphasized that it actually hurt my ears a bit at higher volumes. Not sure how to address that.
> 
> The HU shows the measurements are in inches. When I did it by ear the settings I found were almost the same as the tape measurements, so I think I'm okay there.
> 
> I'm not sure what to do with the EQ just yet. I have the measuring mic for my HU ordered, it won't be here for a week or so.


Don't lower the tweeter HPF, raise the mid LPF. Without knowing more about that tweeter I would be very hesitant to lower the HPF too much, but you can raise the mid LPF to pair with the tweeters. The mids will be beaming, but that comes out as lowered volume, not distortion, so unless the frequency response of the mids get really choppy up high, it's better to raise the LPF to fill that gap.

Yes, your head unit uses inches, but the question is whether you are supposed to simply enter the actual distances, or use the furthest speaker as your reference, set that speaker to 0, and figure out the difference for every other speaker. I think with the Pioneers you simply enter the actual distances, but I'd want to double check that.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

gijoe said:


> Don't lower the tweeter HPF, raise the mid LPF. Without knowing more about that tweeter I would be very hesitant to lower the HPF too much, but you can raise the mid LPF to pair with the tweeters. The mids will be beaming, but that comes out as lowered volume, not distortion, so unless the frequency response of the mids get really choppy up high, it's better to raise the LPF to fill that gap.
> 
> Yes, your head unit uses inches, but the question is whether you are supposed to simply enter the actual distances, or use the furthest speaker as your reference, set that speaker to 0, and figure out the difference for every other speaker. I think with the Pioneers you simply enter the actual distances, but I'd want to double check that.


It looks like the tweeter can handle down to 2kHz, so I think I can lower it a bit more. It's just that awful harshness that starts if I lower it below 6.3kHz is where I'm stuck on that.

The picture below is how the time alignment screen is set up. Doesn't really show the starting point for the measurements but I just assumed it was head to speakers. I'll look at the manual.

Update: 










It looks like it measurements from the listener to the speakers. I measured from the speaker to the same-side ear.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Ok, the time alignment is straight forward then, simply enter the distances from the speaker to the listening position and you're done.

How did you find out that the tweeter can play to 2khz? That's pretty low for a tweeter, especially one included in a pre-packaged component set. There are plenty of very nice tweeters that won't play that low. Without knowing how you came up with the 2khz number I wouldn't push them below 4khz.


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## Dwarteacher (Oct 17, 2020)

[


MercuryFlint said:


> It looks like the tweeter can handle down to 2kHz, so I think I can lower it a bit more. It's just that awful harshness that starts if I lower it below 6.3kHz is where I'm stuck on that.


Edit: use the toggle switch inside the crossover to reduce the output -3db, then cross them at 4000hz to see how it sounds. I would not cross them at 2000hz, twice the fs is a good place to start.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Dwarteacher said:


> [
> 
> use the toggle switch inside the crossover to reduce the output -3db, then cross them at 4000hz to see how it sounds


If OP is running them active, there is no passive crossover to switch to -3dB, but there is a much better level adjustment in the head unit to handle this.


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## Anu2g (Nov 4, 2020)

Also, I think you HP'd your mids at different number than the LP on your sub bc, in your other thread, it was recommended to add a gap, so that the bass pulls to the front. I believe you created the gap in the opposite direction. For example, if your sub LP is 80, then you may want your mid HP to be around 95ish


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

gijoe said:


> If OP is running them active, there is no passive crossover to switch to -3dB, but there is a much better level adjustment in the head unit to handle this.


I pulled the number from the product description page, though maybe I'm interpreting it incorrectly: 

Frequency Response
2000 - 20000 Hz

Correct. It's all active through the headunit. I tried the passive crossovers when I had the HU in standard mode instead of network, but ditched them when I switched modes.


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## Dwarteacher (Oct 17, 2020)

gijoe said:


> If OP is running them active, there is no passive crossover to switch to -3dB, but there is a much better level adjustment in the head unit to handle this.


duh,had a brain fart. I was looking at the manual. It seems like the tweeter output is too high, I still think he should reduce the output of the tweeter.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Anu2g said:


> Also, I think you HP'd your mids at different number than the LP on your sub bc, in your other thread, it was recommended to add a gap, so that the bass pulls to the front. I believe you created the gap in the opposite direction. For example, if your sub LP is 80, then you may want your mid HP to be around 95ish


I tried the gap, it just seemed to take some fullness out of the music, which is why I crossed it there. Maybe that's just the tweeters overpowering.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Dwarteacher said:


> duh,had a brain fart. I was looking at the manual. It seems like the tweeter output is too high, I still think he should reduce the output of the tweeter.


I can try crossing the tweeters down more and reducing output. I lowered it to 5kHz and the music became really tinny and odd sounding. I tried raising the mids HPF to 6.3 and it didn't sound bad at all.


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## Dwarteacher (Oct 17, 2020)

MercuryFlint said:


> I can try crossing the tweeters down more and reducing output. I lowered it to 5kHz and the music became really tinny and odd sounding. I tried raising the mids HPF to 6.3 and it didn't sound bad at all.


odd question. Did you set the crossover on the 4 channel amplifier to full


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Dwarteacher said:


> odd question. Did you set the crossover on the 4 channel amplifier to full


Just checked, all set to full.


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## SSinstaller (May 19, 2021)

You should be crossing the tweeter closer to 4000hz. You're creating a big gap in your response because it sounds better to your ear, but the problem is the 5db greater sensitivity of your tweeters. Turn the tweeters down 4~6 db and you wont need that gap(unless the tweeters are just garbage).


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

SSinstaller said:


> You should be crossing the tweeter closer to 4000hz. You're creating a big gap in your response because it sounds better to your ear, but the problem is the 5db greater sensitivity of your tweeters. Turn the tweeters down 4~6 db and you wont need that gap(unless the tweeters are just garbage).


Well, I may have bad tweeters, then. Even turned down over 6 db if they're crossed below 6.3kHz they're just obnoxious. It's better with them crossed at 6.3kHz and the mids LPF'd at the same. The tweeters are only $35 new, so it makes sense they may not be the best quality. Any way to be sure other than the evidence already considered? Is there an inexpensive step up that will help?


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## blenton (Mar 1, 2018)

Dwarteacher said:


> Ok, I will take a stab at this.
> Your tweeter is crossed too high compared to your mid-woofer. I am not familiar with speaker layout in a jeep wrangler, but most factory locations are not ideal for crossing mid-woofer at 4000hz. Most Midwoofer has cone breakup at those frequencies ( you want to avoid that).
> I don't know how low your tweeter plays, but if you post your speaker brand and model numbers, we can look up the specs to find out.
> There are overlapping frequencies between your sub and mid-woofer. I'm unsure without knowing the specs of the woofer if they can play that low; being a 5.25" woofer, chances are high they cant.


This was the very first thing that popped in to my head reading the OP's post. I concur.



MercuryFlint said:


> Well, I may have bad tweeters, then. Even turned down over 6 db if they're crossed below 6.3kHz they're just obnoxious. It's better with them crossed at 6.3kHz and the mids LPF'd at the same. The tweeters are only $35 new, so it makes sense they may not be the best quality. Any way to be sure other than the evidence already considered? Is there an inexpensive step up that will help?


6db may sound like a lot, but the "SPL" rating of the drivers may have more of a disparity than 6db at certain frequencies since that rating is more of an average or mean efficiency level. Sometimes you need even more padding that that. Taming a tweeter often takes more work than just a crossover and slope. My guess is that there is a nice little obnoxious peak somewhere between 2k and 6k - either from the driver itself or a reflection in the vehicle.

Just for fun, if you were use the outboard crossover provided with the speakers with the tweeter and the amplifier channels running full range, how do the tweeters sound to you? Maybe hook up the woofers to the outboard as well, but you can try using your active network on the woofers still.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

You're still waiting on the measurement microphone correct? Wait until you get some objective data to backup what you're hearing before you start swapping out gear. 

Do you know if the 13 band EQ is applied to both L and R or is it independant? 

I would make some 1/3 oct pink noise tracks with center frequencies at your EQ bands and then go through an EQing process by ear (or just wait for the microphone) to identify hot spots 

It's been awhile since i've tried to do an entire system by ear but I think I would do something like this:

with just the tweeters playing, play the 1/3 octave pink noise tracks in the pass band of the driver. So if the tweeters play 4000 hz to 20,000 hz. Play the 1/3 octave tracks between those two points. If you have L/R separate EQ correct the response L vs R so they match in terms of output. If you do not have separate EQ, Level match the tweeter by adjust aiming and correcting the gain to either side. Using a notepad to manually plot the response at each point and make adjustments. 
repeat the above with the woofers, if you're hearing is getting tired than take a break. 
now work on the response of each side on their own. Listen the 1/3 octave tracks and pick out any big dips. If the EQ is separate L/R than you can start adjusting now. If its fixed than just take notes for now.
listen to both sides together and make your final eq adjustments. Using your notes you can listen to the combined response at each octave band and decide if the summed response needs cuts or boosts. 
Having a mic really helps with the total response curve part of this process in particular. Matching L vs R with some EQ bands isn't terribly difficult by ear on its own. Its typically best practice to do this check by ear after a tuning session anyways.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

blenton said:


> This was the very first thing that popped in to my head reading the OP's post. I concur.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At the moment I have them lowered by 8 dB compared to the mid woofers, and they're better, but whenever I cross them lower than 6.3 the output starts to sound tinny, like the fullness of it starts to decrease. I'm going to test it in a bit when I take my lunch and see if I can adjust it around. 

Well, I used the passive crossover on the tweeters alone when I still had my rear sound bar speakers connected (I was in network mode, just had the rear speakers as the mid woofers before I rewired it) and the tweeters were still pretty obnoxious. They're better now that I have independent control of them.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> You're still waiting on the measurement microphone correct? Wait until you get some objective data to backup what you're hearing before you start swapping out gear.
> 
> Do you know if the 13 band EQ is applied to both L and R or is it independant?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if I can use the mic I'm getting with an RTA. It's specifically a pioneer mic that my head unit can use for its AutoEQ feature where it measures the acoustics in the vehicle and changes your timing/EQ/crossovers for you. Some people have used it to great success, some say it sounds worse, but it's worth the $20 to see. 

However, I _might_ be able to get my hands (temporarily) on a nice RTA, and I'm hoping I'll get some useful feedback from it. 

I didn't think of using the EQ with the pink noise, just the timing and listening for that Doppler Effect. Would you elaborate on "identify hot spots"? Is it just listening for parts that are louder? I'll try this on my lunch break. Thank you for the idea!

I wish I had independent driver EQ ability. I'm strongly considering the AudioControl DM-608 (on recommendation of an audiophile that I know) since I can make adjustments both with a computer and on-the-fly with my phone. It'll just be a few months before I can get this fancy thing.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I have a new issue that I'm dealing with. It seems like on a certain frequency my sub hits and I have, not distortion, but the sound seems off, like maybe the sub is being pushed too hard at a certain frequency. I'm only at half gain on this amp, I turned the bass boost off (it was set for a small bump at 50kHz), but it still sounds pretty bad. I think it's around the frequency of the kick drum. After making all of the adjustments I have the overall bass seems lower quality as well, which is strange because I really haven't played with the sub levels during all of this tuning, just the highs and mids. 

This is more complicated than I expected. Still fun, still wanting to make it work, but wow.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> I'm not sure if I can use the mic I'm getting with an RTA. It's specifically a pioneer mic that my head unit can use for its AutoEQ feature where it measures the acoustics in the vehicle and changes your timing/EQ/crossovers for you. Some people have used it to great success, some say it sounds worse, but it's worth the $20 to see.
> 
> However, I _might_ be able to get my hands (temporarily) on a nice RTA, and I'm hoping I'll get some useful feedback from it.
> 
> ...


oh gotcha I think for $20 its worth a try but a decent microphone is only $80. 

You can play 1/3 octave pink noise from REW or save the tracks from REW and play back from your phone. Because the pink noise is broken up into octave steps you can go from one to the next and listen to the perceived output level. I you go from 150 to 200 to 300 and 200 sounds quieter than either 150 or 300 than you might have a null there. 

The AC unit is pretty weak by today's standards. Better options out there now.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> oh gotcha I think for $20 its worth a try but a decent microphone is only $80.
> 
> You can play 1/3 octave pink noise from REW or save the tracks from REW and play back from your phone. Because the pink noise is broken up into octave steps you can go from one to the next and listen to the perceived output level. I you go from 150 to 200 to 300 and 200 sounds quieter than either 150 or 300 than you might have a null there.
> 
> The AC unit is pretty weak by today's standards. Better options out there now.


I'll look into a better mic soon. I think the software is free/cheap so I wouldn't mind having that in my tool box. 

I didn't realize there were different types of pink noise. So just keep listening and if one's quiet it might be a null. Is that something where the speakers are cancelling, or something in the car that causes a dead zone? How would that be fixed? 

Oh, I see. Well, any recommendations on brands? I was going by a buddy's recommendation (he was a former installer) and I'd hate to waste money on a less-than-above-average product.


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## SSinstaller (May 19, 2021)

Have you tried flipping the phase of the tweeters? 

These kinds of problems are where a good mic and rew will help the most, phase issues cause lots of odd problems and are very hard to fix without seeing the entire frequency response.

The umik-1 is a great mic for around $100 it comes with a good standard calibration file. Cross spectrum sells them with better calibration files referenced to lab grade mics for around $110.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

SSinstaller said:


> Have you tried flipping the phase of the tweeters?
> 
> These kinds of problems are where a good mic and rew will help the most, phase issues cause lots of odd problems and are very hard to fix without seeing the entire frequency response.
> 
> The umik-1 is a great mic for around $100 it comes with a good standard calibration file. Cross spectrum sells them with better calibration files referenced to lab grade mics for around $110.


Flipping the phase does make it seem a little warmer. Interesting. I wish I could flip them independently, but at least I can flip the phase on highs, mids, or sub. 

That's not a terrible price, actually, and I do need to measure acoustics of a room in my house, so it would be a decent investment. I take the calibration files are important, then.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I was looking at this:









Amazon.com: Dayton Audio iMM-6 Calibrated Measurement Microphone for Tablets iPhone iPad and Android : Electronics


Buy Dayton Audio iMM-6 Calibrated Measurement Microphone for Tablets iPhone iPad and Android: Computer Microphones - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

If you're tuning with a laptop get a usb mic as suggested above. If you only have access to a phone than the imm-6 is Ok. 

Depending on the connection type, but that pioneer microphone you ordered might be 3.5mm so you could play around with that perhaps...


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> Flipping the phase does make it seem a little warmer. Interesting. I wish I could flip them independently, but at least I can flip the phase on highs, mids, or sub.
> 
> That's not a terrible price, actually, and I do need to measure acoustics of a room in my house, so it would be a decent investment. I take the calibration files are important, then.


You can flip them independantly, simply reverse the positive and negative wires at the amp. I will say though that this is rarely the best solution. Typically everything should be wired in phase, and time aligned. As long at the slopes are 24dB then you shouldn't need to reverse the phase anywhere. If you need to, or at least want to experiment, then you can flip the phase 180 degrees by reversing the wires.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> If you're tuning with a laptop get a usb mic as suggested above. If you only have access to a phone than the imm-6 is Ok.
> 
> Depending on the connection type, but that pioneer microphone you ordered might be 3.5mm so you could play around with that perhaps...


I was mostly thinking about it as a temporary budget solution, but I'd certainly like to get the better one. I eventually want to get a DSP (if I can find a good one in my price range) and really put this all together right. I want that amazing system that just surrounds me with music. 

Ohhhhh, good point. I'm fairly certain it's a 3.5mm, I might just see if that can work with the phone.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

gijoe said:


> You can flip them independantly, simply reverse the positive and negative wires at the amp. I will say though that this is rarely the best solution. Typically everything should be wired in phase, and time aligned. As long at the slopes are 24dB then you shouldn't need to reverse the phase anywhere. If you need to, or at least want to experiment, then you can flip the phase 180 degrees by reversing the wires.


I was reading a guide about tuning by ear and it was suggesting playing with the phase of each speaker. If I can avoid it, sure, I will 😆


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> I was reading a guide about tuning by ear and it was suggesting playing with the phase of each speaker. If I can avoid it, sure, I will 😆


Read Andy's tuning guide, it will explain much more of the "why" than other guides.



https://testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/A-Straightforward-Stereo-Tuning-Process-and-Some-Notes-About-Why-it-Works.pdf


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

gijoe said:


> Read Andy's tuning guide, it will explain much more of the "why" than other guides.
> 
> 
> 
> https://testgear.audiofrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/A-Straightforward-Stereo-Tuning-Process-and-Some-Notes-About-Why-it-Works.pdf


Oh that's solid, thank you!

Alright, highs and mids crossed at 4kHz, though I'm experimenting with 3.5kHz. Mid HPF crossed at 100Hz, sub crossed at 80Hz. All slopes are 24db (not sure why I'm doing that, but I'm running with it. I had my highs sloped at 18db before and it seemed decent there, but I'm willing to experiment). Now I just need to figure out why my sub sounds weird on the kick drum and test it all. And figure out my EQ.


----------



## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Update:

I found one old speaker baffle, put it behind one of the 5.25s, and the bass response on that side is significantly better, and now the tweeters aren't quite as overpowering. I'll need to track down the other or get another pair, but so far it's helped more than I expected. Likely because the dash mounting spot has open air behind it with no enclosure to speak of. On the advice of an installer I know (I can only pin him down to ask a quick question or two) I cut a hole in the back of that baffle to allow more air movement but still provide it a chamber of sorts. I'm not sure if that's the best idea, so any feedback on that would be appreciated. I'll be buying another pair of baffles, so I'd like to know if I should do that again.


----------



## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Picked up a new set of baffles. What a difference. Everything sounds so much more balanced. 

Question: would it be beneficial at all to either butyl/alum reinforce the baffles or put some acoustic foam at the back? I have a set of silicone baffles I could put over top of the foam ones, and these came with acoustic foam, and I have some NVX sound treatment laying around that I could use.


----------



## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

What did you install? Photos?


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Just a quick observation, you mention your gain on your subwoofer amp is ‘only halfway’… it’s very possible that’s too high and your clipping the amp… for example if the amps gain goes from 0.5v to 4v and your headunit is 4v out you could potentially have it halfway too far…


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

You're likely right. My sub just died.




dumdum said:


> Just a quick observation, you mention your gain on your subwoofer amp is ‘only halfway’… it’s very possible that’s too high and your clipping the amp… for example if the amps gain goes from 0.5v to 4v and your headunit is 4v out you could potentially have it halfway too far…


----------



## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Correction, I switched out the subs and I still have no sub output. My amplifier is not in protection mode. I have no idea what happened.

The sad part of this is that it happened literally at the beginning of a road trip, and I will still have to drive back afterwards


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

lithium said:


> If you're tuning with a laptop get a usb mic as suggested above. If you only have access to a phone than the imm-6 is Ok.
> 
> Depending on the connection type, but that pioneer microphone you ordered might be 3.5mm so you could play around with that perhaps...


They are a standard 3.5 mm plug.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> Correction, I switched out the subs and I still have no sub output. My amplifier is not in protection mode. I have no idea what happened.
> 
> The sad part of this is that it happened literally at the beginning of a road trip, and I will still have to drive back afterwards


Do you have multi meter?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Holmz said:


> Do you have multi meter?


I do, but I don't think it's working properly. On the DC voltage option the value starts climbing into the negative with the probes not touching anything.

Using the AC V, which is the only of the settings where the value drops to 0 when the probes aren't touching anything, in the RCA jacks at the HU for the sub the V jumps up to between .020 and .110 whenever the bass hits, 0 when the song isn't playing. Same reading at the RCA. This is with the positive probe on the RCA, negative grounded to the frame.

On AC V testing the sub speaker output the value jumps between 2 and 4


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

meters cant handle the fast signal change of music. You need to play a sine wave, just take it easy on the volume level and use a 60 hz tone. Read the AC voltage at the RCA (should be less than 5v). If you see voltage there than connect RCA's to the amp and read voltage out of the amp (without the subs connected). Should be higher obviously as your on the output side.

Then if you have voltage output check the resistance of the sub voice coils. check for a loose wire in the box. also physically push on the sub cone and listen for scratching or locked up voice coil. The resistance of the coil should measure a little below the nominal value (so 4ohm subs have a Re in the 3.x ohm range).


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> meters cant handle the fast signal change of music. You need to play a sine wave, just take it easy on the volume level and use a 60 hz tone. Read the AC voltage at the RCA (should be less than 5v). If you see voltage there than connect RCA's to the amp and read voltage out of the amp (without the subs connected). Should be higher obviously as your on the output side.
> 
> Then if you have voltage output check the resistance of the sub voice coils. check for a loose wire in the box. also physically push on the sub cone and listen for scratching or locked up voice coil. The resistance of the coil should measure a little below the nominal value (so 4ohm subs have a Re in the 3.x ohm range).


Okay, 60 Hz sine wave. RCA cables at amp end show a value between 1 and 4 depending on volume.

Output at speaker wire leads from sub amp at the sub (disconnected from sub) are 6.85 V.

Sub resistance 0. Replacement sub resistance 0. I tested one of these two weeks ago and it was 3.9. Tested a spare speaker just to be sure it wasn't my meter, tested at 3.3 on a 4 ohm speaker

I guess the subs are blown. This is weird, since I only had one installed, the other in a climate controlled storage facility. The one from storage worked fine before.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Curious, when the meter was connected to the individual subs the ohms were at 0 (starting point), but if I pushed on the woofer face it would jump up momentarily. Is that normal?


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## blenton (Mar 1, 2018)

MercuryFlint said:


> Curious, when the meter was connected to the individual subs the ohms were at 0 (starting point), but if I pushed on the woofer face it would jump up momentarily. Is that normal?


Yes, that’s normal. But 0 ohms is not. Are they DVC subs by chance?


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Are you measuring at the terminals on the sub or at speaker terminals on the box? If you're measuring at the terminals try the tinsel leads just to be extra sure its the voice coil that's short (0 ohms is shorted vc).


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> Curious, when the meter was connected to the individual subs the ohms were at 0 (starting point), but if I pushed on the woofer face it would jump up momentarily. Is that normal?


Aka… “back EMF”


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

blenton said:


> Yes, that’s normal. But 0 ohms is not. Are they DVC subs by chance?


Okay, i wasn't sure, thank you.

These are old ones, just SVC.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Are you measuring at the terminals on the sub or at speaker terminals on the box? If you're measuring at the terminals try the tinsel leads just to be extra sure its the voice coil that's short (0 ohms is shorted vc).


Directly at the contacts on the subs themselves. Looks like all of the wiring to and through the box is fine.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Holmz said:


> Aka… “back EMF”


Ohhhhh, didn't realize it had a name. Awesome, thank you


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> Ohhhhh, didn't realize it had a name. Awesome, thank you


It is essentially a microphone.
Push the coil through a magnetic field and we generate electricity.

A speaker has the coil‘s magnetic field push against the magnet’s field to convert electricity into force.

So when we disconnected the amp, and pushed on the cone, then then we converted that energy into electricity.
The term “damping factor” is related to it as well.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Holmz said:


> It is essentially a microphone.
> Push the coil through a magnetic field and we generate electricity.
> 
> A speaker has the coil‘s magnetic field push against the magnet’s field to convert electricity into force.
> ...


That makes sense and is really interesting! I wonder how it overcomes whatever damage happened to the sub enough to generate anything. I figured if the sub was blown it wouldn't be able to generate output like that.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> That makes sense and is really interesting! I wonder how it overcomes whatever damage happened to the sub enough to generate anything. I figured if the sub was blown it wouldn't be able to generate output like that.


good point!


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> That makes sense and is really interesting! I wonder how it overcomes whatever damage happened to the sub enough to generate anything. I figured if the sub was blown it wouldn't be able to generate output like that.


are your sure they're actually damaged?


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Maybe try the battery test with a 9v battery?


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## SSinstaller (May 19, 2021)

I've seen many subs with broken coils that would play with a little inward pressure on the cone.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> are your sure they're actually damaged?


At this point, yes. I swapped in a low quality 10" that I have and it works without issue (other than it being low quality).

Now to research and purchase a shallow mount 12 🙄


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

SSinstaller said:


> I've seen many subs with broken coils that would play with a little inward pressure on the cone.


Oh that's odd. If you held pressure on the cone would it play fairly normally?


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Maybe a shorted tinsel lead or something... You could hack it up to see where the failure is.


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## SSinstaller (May 19, 2021)

MercuryFlint said:


> Oh that's odd. If you held pressure on the cone would it play fairly normally?


Not really, the pressure is just forcing the broken coil leads back together, so as soon as the sub really gets moving they separate again.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Maybe a shorted tinsel lead or something... You could hack it up to see where the failure is.


I'm tempted, since at this point it's a paper weight. May as well learn something for it.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

SSinstaller said:


> Not really, the pressure is just forcing the broken coil leads back together, so as soon as the sub really gets moving they separate again.


Ohhhh, that kind of makes sense. Maybe once I hack it up I'll start to understand how this all works.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I got ahold of the Pioneer mic for the AutoEQ feature. It's... interesting. I don't understand the settings (the tweeters and mids are crossed at 8kHz now, for instance) but there's significantly more bass from the front, and the soundstage seems more set up front. 

What it's changed: 

Timing adjustment is almost the same as before, just a few inches different. 

The speaker levels, with the highs several dB lower than the mids, but now the subs are set at -12dB where I used to have it at 0. 

The subs/mids crossed at 80 Hz with -12 slopes, the mids/highs crossed at 8 kHz with -12 slopes. 

I haven't had much time to test it, but what little I did was very interesting. It's a little muddy, but much more mid-bass than it had before. And a lot of rattles, so I have a new project to work on.


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## Anu2g (Nov 4, 2020)

8KHz sounds really high for an XO point! Also you may want to play with what sounds good to your ear as far as sub gain. Great that the bass is in front...harder to achieve that once you turn the sub gains up.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Anu2g said:


> 8KHz sounds really high for an XO point! Also you may want to play with what sounds good to your ear as far as sub gain. Great that the bass is in front...harder to achieve that once you turn the sub gains up.


Well it should be 6 dB down at 4K and 12 dB at 2k.
A 3k 24LR Wilk also be down in the ~12 dB range at 2k.

So it seems like it safely worth a try IMO.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> I got ahold of the Pioneer mic for the AutoEQ feature. It's... interesting. I don't understand the settings (the tweeters and mids are crossed at 8kHz now, for instance) but there's significantly more bass from the front, and the soundstage seems more set up front.
> 
> What it's changed:
> 
> ...


Feel free to set your xovers to more appropriate frequencies and slopes, my 80prs always changed my xovers. And crank the subs up to where you like them.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Anu2g said:


> 8KHz sounds really high for an XO point! Also you may want to play with what sounds good to your ear as far as sub gain. Great that the bass is in front...harder to achieve that once you turn the sub gains up.


I thought so, too! It seemed so strange a point to do it. I know the acoustics in a Jeep are a bit wild, but still....

I'm going to tinker with me it more. I tried running it both with my windows in and with my windows out (which is how I drive most of the time). Strangely not a lot different between the two.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Holmz said:


> Well it should be 6 dB down at 4K and 12 dB at 2k.
> A 3k 24LR Wilk also be down in the ~12 dB range at 2k.
> 
> So it seems like it safely worth a try IMO.


So try a 3k (I think mine does 3.15) with a -24 slope, if I'm reading that right?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

ckirocz28 said:


> Feel free to set your xovers to more appropriate frequencies and slopes, my 80prs always changed my xovers. And crank the subs up to where you like them.


I plan to tinker. It's just wild that the changes it made did so much to the position of the bass. Before the bass was all diffuse, like I could hear it sort of _everywhere_ instead of up front (even the more punchy bass didn't seem to have a direction). Now it's in the dash hard enough that I have to address rattles that weren't there before. 

At the moment I'm stuck with a lower-quality 10", so not much cranking I can do, but at least it has some nice fill. I have my eye on a Kicker CompVT 12" shallow mount at the moment, recommended to me by a co-worker as having the most bang for the buck in that price range. It'll just be a few pay days before I can indulge.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> So try a 3k (I think mine does 3.15) with a -24 slope, if I'm reading that right?


No... just see how the 8k with 12dB slopes works/sounds.

But the number I quoted were for 1st order (6dB) slopes. I would be trying 6 or 12 dB slopes first... if the MR is beaming then it would need a steeper slope and a lower tweeter XO freq (and maybe with a steeper slope).


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Holmz said:


> No... just see how the 8k with 12dB slopes works/sounds.
> 
> But the number I quoted were for 1st order (6dB) slopes. I would be trying 6 or 12 dB slopes first... if the MR is beaming then it would need a steeper slope and a lower tweeter XO freq (and maybe with a steeper slope).


I'm still trying to figure out how the slopes impact things. I had to Google "beaming," but it makes sense (for the most part). So adjusting slopes helps with beaming? Is there any other fun thing that slopes impact?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

Frequency affects beaming, XO point and slopes affect frequency.
Slopes affect phase around the XO point, so it gets to be a jumble.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Holmz said:


> Frequency affects beaming, XO point and slopes affect frequency.
> Slopes affect phase around the XO point, so it gets to be a jumble.


So it's super simple and straightforward, got it. 

I take it this plays a factor in sound staging, then. 

On that topic, would anyone recommend a good audio processor? Trying to keep it under $700, and I would love some phone functionality if possible. So far the audiocontrol one seems to be what fits, but I haven't found any comprehensive reviews.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I have a set of foam baffles enclosing the 5.25s in the dash. It's made a difference since it's nothing but open air behind the speaker normally. Would there be any benefit to putting butyl/alum dampener inside or around the outside of the baffles? I have some small pieces laying around that I could make use of. Just thinking if the added rigidity would create more of a hard enclosure compared to just a foam chamber. 










I also have silicone baffles that are open at the back, I could try putting those inside/outside of the foam ones to increase rigidity. 










I could use that piece of acoustic foam as well.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

The foam baffle is supposed to be cut out to vent the driver. Typical application is a door where you leave the top of the foam to shield against rain and vent the bottom. 

If you want to create an enclosure for the speakers try hard plastics, FG, wood. Foams and soft plastics wont do a thing.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> So it's super simple and straightforward, got it.
> 
> I take it this plays a factor in sound staging, then.
> 
> On that topic, would anyone recommend a good audio processor? Trying to keep it under $700, and I would love some phone functionality if possible. So far the audiocontrol one seems to be what fits, but I haven't found any comprehensive reviews.


plenty of good options from minidsp or helix. Try searching the site for reviews.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> The foam baffle is supposed to be cut out to vent the driver. Typical application is a door where you leave the top of the foam to shield against rain and vent the bottom.
> 
> If you want to create an enclosure for the speakers try hard plastics, FG, wood. Foams and soft plastics wont do a thing.


Ahhh. I thought they were left pretty intact. I did cut a two-by-two section from the back of each for venting, and with them in the mid bass is a great deal better. I know an actual enclosure would be better, I was just curious if I could get by with some CLD scraps until I can either build something or possibly get speaker pods or if that would be a total waste of my time.


----------



## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> So it's super simple and straightforward, got it.
> 
> I take it this plays a factor in sound staging, then.
> 
> On that topic, would anyone recommend a good audio processor? Trying to keep it under $700, and I would love some phone functionality if possible. So far the audiocontrol one seems to be what fits, but I haven't found any comprehensive reviews.


While a processor is usually worthwhile, I would suggest focusing on placement and install.
If the speakers are in the doors and have cancellations then you cannot simply DSP that out (or back in).
Also beaming is worse off axis than on axis, so where they are AND where they are aimed makes a difference.

However a car is less friendly than a room in a house for placement of speaker… So there may not be any sane options.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Holmz said:


> While a processor is usually worthwhile, I would suggest focusing on placement and install.
> If the speakers are in the doors and have cancellations then you cannot simply DSP that out (or back in).
> Also beaming is worse off axis than on axis, so where they are AND where they are aimed makes a difference.
> 
> However a car is less friendly than a room in a house for placement of speaker… So there may not be any sane options.


Shame, I was hoping that would be a good fix. 

My speakers are in the dash at knee level pointing straight ahead. They use to point downward but the brackets I did to convert the 4x6s to 5.25s was able to raise this. The tweeters are in the A-pillar right above the dash and are aimed directly at me. Sub is in the back facing the tailgate. I would like to get some speaker pods the put on the A-pillars, then raise the tweeters above those. They do make kick panel enclosures that hold 6.5s (which I have in the speaker bar, though disconnected at the moment. 

What would make those speakers have cancellations? Phase, or just because of the way they face?


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> Shame, I was hoping that would be a good fix.
> …


The unicorn dust is finite.




MercuryFlint said:


> …
> My speakers are in the dash at knee level pointing straight ahead. They use to point downward but the brackets I did to convert the 4x6s to 5.25s was able to raise this. …
> …


I am less skilled at following my own advice…
What I would not do, but would suggest that you do…
Is to have before and after measurements when you do these things.




MercuryFlint said:


> …
> What would make those speakers have cancellations? Phase, or just because of the way they face?


Reflections and bounces, and sometimes just phase interactions.
usually people talk about:

playing one speaker at a time and measuring the amplitude response.
doing the same deal with the opposing door open to remove that reflection

_These_ are things that smart people do, which is why I don’t do them as much as I should


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Holmz said:


> The unicorn dust is finite.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The dust is finite but hope isn't. Just a shame hope doesn't always translate to results 😂

Fair. At the moment I don't have a mic to use with an RTA, but once I get one I'll certainly start measuring things before and after changes. I know the reflections in my vehicle are major as the entire interior is just bare metal. And some rust. 

So, my plans were:


Buy a new shallow mount 12" sub. 
Buy a DSP (I can get the AudioControl DM-608 for $300)
Buy sound treatment. 
I was going to start with the CLP this weekend, but in The Deadening group they were recommending some kind of ceramic spray to put down first to help with heat transfer and noise. I want to do this right the first time rather than realizing later that I could have made it better but no longer can. I might go ahead and use the NVX CLP I have to line the doors since I'm not worried about heat transfer there.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Minidsp 6x8 > audiocontrol


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Minidsp 6x8 > audiocontrol


Interesting. Half the price but you feel it's a superior product? Genuine question. 

MiniDSP's site shows it's configured for passive rear speakers as well. That's pretty neat.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

The audio control doesn't have peq. It's pretty low spec compared to the cheap minidsp 6x8. If you want to run differential rear fill you need the 8x12 or a helix.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> The audio control doesn't have peq. It's pretty low spec compared to the cheap minidsp 6x8. If you want to run differential rear fill you need the 8x12 or a helix.


Doesn't this show rear fill? Or am I reading it wrong?










This probably sounds like a newbie error, but is PEQ different than a 30 or so band EQ?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

If it's the same price I'll go with whichever is better. $300 is within my budget here soon.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Well that would be an example of your standard stereo rear fill, not differential rear fill. Search the site and read about the differences. 

Personally I would take 6 bands on each input and output ch of peq vs 30 bands of geq per ch. Google it and make your own choice. The 6x8 run about $200 used. The 8x12 has more peq bands and run 3-400 used.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Well that would be an example of your standard stereo rear fill, not differential rear fill. Search the site and read about the differences.
> 
> Personally I would take 6 bands on each input and output ch of peq vs 30 bands of geq per ch. Google it and make your own choice. The 6x8 run about $200 used. The 8x12 has more peq bands and run 3-400 used.


No luck in finding a used minidsp 6x8 on ebay/amazon/craigslist/diymobileaudio. Any places you would recommend for getting a used unit? 

Doing some Googling/reading on the GEP versus PEQ. I see what you mean, the PEQ does seem to give more precision control and less compromise when it comes to tuning, even with significantly fewer bands to boost/cut. This is all based on my very limited understanding on what the heck most of it means. Given that the acoustics of my metal-can-on-huge-tires are worse than most it seems like it would be ideal to have this. 

Stereo-fill versus dif-fill makes a lot of sense. So with the 6x8 it would only give stereo fill, which given the whole concept of soundstaging seems like it would hurt more than help. I could get the stereo fill by just hooking my rear speakers (installed but currently disconnected) to my HU directly. That was something I was considering, but given what I've been reading today I'm not sure it would be worthwhile.


----------



## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Figured out the rattle, finally. Turns out the foam baffle I was using for my mid right was vibrating and making a buzzing sound. No idea why this happened to the mid and not the left mid, which has the same baffle, but removing it fixed the problem. A shame, it really did help the bass response on that speaker and I notice a difference with it gone.


----------



## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

You could make a post in the classifieds for a 6x8 or some of the older helix models for around $2-300. Or just go with what's available to you. There is also the dayton audio dsp which you might find around. It has some noise issues with car installs that can be addressed. Its probably the cheapest 8 ch dsp you can get. 

I was thinking about some of the other options and remembered some PPI/soundstream dsp that came out a few years ago, strangely you don't see them kicking around ebay..


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> You could make a post in the classifieds for a 6x8 or some of the older helix models for around $2-300. Or just go with what's available to you. There is also the dayton audio dsp which you might find around. It has some noise issues with car installs that can be addressed. Its probably the cheapest 8 ch dsp you can get.
> 
> I was thinking about some of the other options and remembered some PPI/soundstream dsp that came out a few years ago, strangely you don't see them kicking around ebay..


That's a good idea, I may go ahead and post something. At this point I think anything that gives me more options will help with my setup. There isn't much I can do in terms of driver placement other than seeing if I can find some speaker pods to move some 3" or 4" to the top of my dash. Very tempted to try this. But I figure having some independent channel EQ control would help a lot. Though I'll probably need a calibrated mic and an RTA to get any real value out of a DSP. 

If I can't find anything else I'll just try the AudioControl. It's not as good as others, I get that, but since I can get it for $300 new I could always turn around and sell it used for $300 or $400. I could try it and not be out any money. But for the effort and time it would cost setting up I'd rather get the right thing now and not have to deal with replacing it in a year and starting all over again. 

What do you think of the Alpine DSPs? I could get the Alpine PXA-H800 for a pretty good price. 10 band PEQ on that one.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

No idea on the alpine, aren't these like a decade old at this point. If you got a good price on the AC unit, go for it. I definitely suggest a microphone as your next purchase for sure. Maybe even before DSP considering you have 13 bands of eq on the HU already.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> No idea on the alpine, aren't these like a decade old at this point. If you got a good price on the AC unit, go for it. I definitely suggest a microphone as your next purchase for sure. Maybe even before DSP considering you have 13 bands of eq on the HU already.


I'll look around for a Mini or Helix, but if nothing is forthcoming I'll grab one of the ACs. Not like I couldn't sell it again if I find something better. The main reason I'm looking at the DSP now is for the independent EQ controls for each channel. I'm hoping to clarify that sound stage with it and the timing adjustment. The HU does have timing, which helps a lot, but the EQ controls feel really limited. I can't seem to make much difference using it, no matter where I cut. Though I guess with a mic and RTA I could see more of what I'm doing. But in terms of what I can hear, little that I do makes any improvement.


----------



## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Crud, I just blew the passenger 5.25". Rattles like a demon. The RMS was matched on those, 75w, so I'm not sure why it blew. Crossed at 80Hz with a -12db slope. Was I running it too low?


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Probably too low or too shallow a slope.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Probably too low or too shallow a slope.


Ahhh. So move it up to 100Hz and drop it to -24?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

MercuryFlint said:


> Ahhh. So move it up to 100Hz and drop it to -24?


I found that I can get these at a good price:









JL Audio C2-525 60W RMS 5.25” Component Speakers


JL Audio C2-525 • 225W Peak 60W RMS 5.25” Evolution C2 Series Component Speakers • Peak Power: 225 watts per channel • RMS Power: 60 watts per channel • 0.75" Silk Dome Tweeter • Injection Molded Mica-filled Polypropylene Cone • 3-Position Adjustable Tweeter Level • 4 Ohms Impedance •...




www.sonicelectronix.com





JL Audio C2-525.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

What's a good price? If you're running active I would consider raw drivers. If you're limited to 5.25 maybe these:

zaph audio








Zaph Audio ZA14W08 5" Aluminum Cone Mid/Woofer


Next batch of ZA14 woofers due to arrive in late-Jan/Feb, 2023. Email us ([email protected]) if you would like to be notified when they are back in stock.Zaph Audio ZA14W08 5" Aluminum Cone Woofer Visit the ZA5 Family of Speaker Kits using this driver. Strategically placed Faraday rings in the...




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com





or sb acoustic








SB Acoustics SB15MFC30-4 5" Poly Cone Woofer


SB Acoustics SB15MFC30-4 5" Polypropylene Cone Woofer - 4 ohms version •Vented cast aluminum chassis for optimum strength and low compression




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com





There are some other options in this price range. You can also spend 2x as much or 2x less and still find some good options. Generally, for an IB door install you want a qts over 0.4 and avoid drivers that haven't been tested for door installs (hold up environmentally). Zaph sells this woofer in a "car audio" kit so I assume it will hold up fine. And the poly cone SB woofer has been a popular woofer (typically the 6.5 inch model) on the forum.

If you can step up to a 6.5 inch that would get you some more response (80Hz) and output potentially.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> What's a good price? If you're running active I would consider raw drivers. If you're limited to 5.25 maybe these:
> 
> zaph audio
> 
> ...


Oh, interesting! I haven't looked at just buying raw drivers. I'm limited to 5.25" at the moment. I installed brackets and did some dash modification to upgrade from 4x6. It's a lot more fab work to get 6.5"s installed, but it's something I'll do down the line. 

These woofers aren't installed in a door, they're in a dash that's just open air behind them. Not idea, but not sure how to put an enclosure of any kind behind them without pods. 

The JL kit I can get for a hair over $100 instead of the $299 retail. I'm not attached to these, just found that I could get that price and they seemed good quality.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

MercuryFlint said:


> Oh, interesting! I haven't looked at just buying raw drivers. I'm limited to 5.25" at the moment. I installed brackets and did some dash modification to upgrade from 4x6. It's a lot more fab work to get 6.5"s installed, but it's something I'll do down the line.
> 
> These woofers aren't installed in a door, they're in a dash that's just open air behind them. Not idea, but not sure how to put an enclosure of any kind behind them without pods.
> 
> The JL kit I can get for a hair over $100 instead of the $299 retail. I'm not attached to these, just found that I could get that price and they seemed good quality.


There's a Focal I can get:









Focal RSE130 | Auditor Line 5.25'' Component Speaker System


Focal RSE-130 RSE 130 • Auditor Line 5.25″ 2-way Component Speakers • Auditor Line 5″ 2-Way Component Speakers • Peak Power: 100W • RMS Power: 50W • Sensitivity: 90dB • Impedance: 4Ω • Frequency Response: 65Hz-21kHz




www.sonicelectronix.com


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I'm not opposed to raw drivers. I'm just not sure on which brands are the best since I'm not used to buying them that way.


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## MF Toker (Jan 10, 2011)

lithium said:


> What's a good price? If you're running active I would consider raw drivers. If you're limited to 5.25 maybe these:
> 
> zaph audio
> 
> ...


The ZA14W08 is very nice but I wouldn't use it in a 2 way unless you're okay playing the sub rather high. They only have 68cm of cone area with 3.25mm xmax one way, most 4" drivers have ~54cm while 5.25" have around 85cm so they're somewhere in the middle. For the price they are very low distortion in the 280hz-2200hz range, about 50-55db down at 98db. 





Zaph Audio ZA14W08 | HiFiCompass


The THD measurements at distance of 315 mm and voltage levels 2.83 - 8 Volt were carried out with High Pass Filter "on" (2nd order Buttreworth type, 30 Hz cutoff, HPF2-30). The THD measurements at distance of 315 mm and voltage level 11.2 Volt were carried out with High Pass Filter "on" (2nd...




hificompass.com


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

MF Toker said:


> The ZA14W08 is very nice but I wouldn't use it in a 2 way unless you're okay playing the sub rather high. They only have 68cm of cone area with 3.25mm xmax one way, most 4" drivers have ~54cm while 5.25" have around 85cm so they're somewhere in the middle. For the price they are very low distortion in the 280hz-2200hz range, about 50-55db down at 98db.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, that makes sense mostly. I would be happy with buying drivers alone if the quality is solid.

Hmm. I have my sub crossed at 80Hz, so I guess I'll have to raise that. Just finding a way out of the distortion that happens when I raise it and play at louder volumes.

I can also get these for about $100









Focal RSE130 | Auditor Line 5.25'' Component Speaker System


Focal RSE-130 RSE 130 • Auditor Line 5.25″ 2-way Component Speakers • Auditor Line 5″ 2-Way Component Speakers • Peak Power: 100W • RMS Power: 50W • Sensitivity: 90dB • Impedance: 4Ω • Frequency Response: 65Hz-21kHz




www.sonicelectronix.com


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

The raw drivers are considerably better performance and value than buying entire sets for just a woofer.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

MF Toker said:


> lithium said:
> 
> 
> > The raw drivers are considerably better performance and value than buying entire sets for just a woofer.



Got it. That'll be the way to go, then.

Question: on this woofer, I see the rated power is 60W. Silly newbie question, but is that the RMS, not peak? Also, these are 8 ohm, how would I incorporate that into a 4 ohm system? I've read about using resistors to do it, but what I read said you lose SQ when doing that.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Power rating could either be thermal or excursion based. And yes that RMS power. 

8ohm is just the nominal load on the amp. You're running the drivers active, so you can just estimate the power available from the amp as half the 4 ohm power rating. But you need to understand the sensitivity of the driver to get a picture of the output capabilities are. 

For your amp it's probably best to look at your typical 4 ohm drivers or drivers with higher sensitivity. Some of these hifi raw drivers can be lower sensitivity (especially wide band width drivers). 

If you can fit this dayton I think it could be a good option. I'm just not sure about your mounting location/baffle. If you could get creative with some PVC pipe or fiberglass to make some small 0.1 cu ft pods for the 5-6 inch mids you might get some decent results. You will still have some work to do to marry the mids and subs around 100hz. 









Home


Dayton Audio RS150P-4A 6" Reference Paper Woofer 4 OhmNow with improved frequency response – we tweaked the design and the result is a much a smoother high frequency roll-off allowing for extended bandwidth and easier crossover integration.The performance of the original groundbreaking Reference...




www.parts-express.com


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Power rating could either be thermal or excursion based. And yes that RMS power.
> 
> 8ohm is just the nominal load on the amp. You're running the drivers active, so you can just estimate the power available from the amp as half the 4 ohm power rating. But you need to understand the sensitivity of the driver to get a picture of the output capabilities are.
> 
> ...


I really appreciate the help you've given me so far. Above and beyond, my friend. 

I'm still learning what these specs mean, but I think I'll pick up those Dayton speakers when I figure out a way to mount them. The reviews I googled were stellar. 

That makes more sense, thank you. At this point the only way I could get a 6" or 6.5" in the front is with a universal speaker pods. I spent an hour looking for Jeep-specific pods and the largest for the dash were 4". So unless I figure out how to build my own custom enclosures I'll have to rig a universal to fit somewhere up front. 

So, question: in terms of cost effectiveness (my wallet runs lean until I get a few car repairs out of the way), I did come up with an option. I have a set of NVX component 6.5"s in my speaker bar, currently disabled and sitting idle. I can get a pair of 6x9 speaker boxes for super cheap, as well as a 6x9 -> 6.5" bracket. These would likely have to live on the floorboards of my Jeep, driver and passenger seat. I know this is far from ideal, but it's going to be a bit before I can get kicker panels or any sort of custom enclosure. I can't get 6.5" enclosures through my discount program, but I can get these, at least. Sadly, all of the 6.5" pods I came across have a 10" base diameter which will not fit anywhere in the front of my Jeep. 

Placement isn't great, but at least I could direct them towards me a bit more than the dash speakers which fire slightly downward, and I would be able to use the 6.5"s I have now. 

Thoughts?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Eh, after some measuring I don't think that'll work.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I'm going to take your advice on the PVC pipe. I think that's my best option. Just finding a place to mount them now, that's going to be interesting.

Windshield corner would obscure too much of my view. The kick panel area of the passenger side is fine, but with my Jeep being a stick shift there's no decent space that wouldn't interfere with the clutch.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

There's another option you can explore. Underseat midbass. There are some limitations but it might be a really good option. Some of those limitations, other than just fitting the enclosure, which on some cars is pretty easy, would be the frequency range it can play before your ears notice the speaker is under you. That limit, from what reading I've done is about 250 Hz. 

With a low crossover frequency the challenge would be to pick a midrange or full range that can play 250+Hz. I think its possible to find some 3 incher fullrange that can hang out to about 300Hz without spending more than $30 a driver. Since you have that dash location that can fit a 4 inch driver you can find even better options to pick up the around 150-200Hz which work quite well. You can keep that tweeters on the A pillar to cover the top end. 

You'll want about a 0.25cu ft for the midbass under the seat for something like a SLS 6.5 for example. A 4 inch like the dayton rs100 or rs125 depending what might fit. Lots of option for mids in this size. Then you can use those left over tweeters for the top end to save some cash.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> There's another option you can explore. Underseat midbass. There are some limitations but it might be a really good option. Some of those limitations, other than just fitting the enclosure, which on some cars is pretty easy, would be the frequency range it can play before your ears notice the speaker is under you. That limit, from what reading I've done is about 250 Hz.
> 
> With a low crossover frequency the challenge would be to pick a midrange or full range that can play 250+Hz. I think its possible to find some 3 incher fullrange that can hang out to about 300Hz without spending more than $30 a driver. Since you have that dash location that can fit a 4 inch driver you can find even better options to pick up the around 150-200Hz which work quite well. You can keep that tweeters on the A pillar to cover the top end.
> 
> You'll want about a 0.25cu ft for the midbass under the seat for something like a SLS 6.5 for example. A 4 inch like the dayton rs100 or rs125 depending what might fit. Lots of option for mids in this size. Then you can use those left over tweeters for the top end to save some cash.


That's a really interesting idea! I'll have to see what kinds of options I have for under the seat. 

It sounds like I'm going to need some additional amplification for this, or some kind of better crossover, if I have under seat drivers, dash drivers, tweeters. Unless I use a passive crossover to separate the tweeters and 3" or 4" drivers. At the moment I have a 4-channel amp and a mono amp. I would, at least, need a 2-channel amp and a crossover/signal processor to govern the under the seat drivers. Unless my conceptualization is incorrect, which it easily could be. 

I found a listing on eBay that has 6.5" cone-shaped pods that _might_ fit in my kick panels. About to take some measurements and see if that could work.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Well if you're running the pioneer HU you can cover a 2way plus sub. You might have to use a combination of HU and amp Xovers to make it work for a full range driver but it would be fine. For a 3way plus sub then you would have to buy a DSP.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Depending on the positioning and tuning you might be able to make those pods that you already own work for midbass. Lots of compromises to be made in a jeep.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Drat, there's not enough room under the dash


lithium said:


> Well if you're running the pioneer HU you can cover a 2way plus sub. You might have to use a combination of HU and amp Xovers to make it work for a full range driver but it would be fine. For a 3way plus sub then you would have to buy a DSP.


Do you mean something like running the outputs of the HU to the tweeters, front amp outputs to the mid drivers, then rear amp to the ones under the seat?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Depending on the positioning and tuning you might be able to make those pods that you already own work for midbass. Lots of compromises to be made in a jeep.


I'm learning very quickly about these compromises. I'm not expecting to win any SQ competitions with this build, but if I can drive down the interstate with my windows out and have clarity and balance in my audio then I'll be a happy camper.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> Drat, there's not enough room under the dash
> 
> 
> Do you mean something like running the outputs of the HU to the tweeters, front amp outputs to the mid drivers, then rear amp to the ones under the seat?


If the only dsp you have for the system right now is the HU than you're limited to a 2 way front stage + a subwoofer (6 channels). So you could do a full range driver in the dash corners and the midbass under the seat. The only way to do a 3way would be a passive coax speaker in the dash location (works ok but cheap coax's tend to stuck) or buy a DSP with more channels for 8 channels of DSP. You'll need another amp to make this work as you said.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> If the only dsp you have for the system right now is the HU than you're limited to a 2 way front stage + a subwoofer (6 channels). So you could do a full range driver in the dash corners and the midbass under the seat. The only way to do a 3way would be a passive coax speaker in the dash location (works ok but cheap coax's tend to stuck) or buy a DSP with more channels for 8 channels of DSP. You'll need another amp to make this work as you said.


I do have the passive crossovers that came with my kit. I bypassed them when I ran the tweeters separate to the head unit in networking, though I had to install them again when I switched back to the coax dash speakers after my dash woofer blew. Not ideal, but having four tweeters running, even though I had the bandpass filter going, was overwhelming. 

My buddy pointed out that I may have enough space under the dash to install a box and run either my 6.5s or get 8s at some point. I know I have the room on the passenger side, but I'll have to check out how much room I have on the driver's side. They would be downward firing most likely. I think that might have to wait until I could get another amp and a DSP, but that might be the way to go if I can't get enough room over the seat.

As a temp fix until I can get speaker pods for the dash woofers (they make some specifically for my model of Jeep) I put my silicone baffles over my foam baffles, and that's helped with my mid bass a bit. Rigging up what I can, and I'm a fan of free upgrades. Used a little poly fill as well.

In the mean time I'm keeping an eye out for 5 to 5.25 drivers that I could use to replace those dash speakers.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Home


Dayton Audio DC130B-4 5-1/4" Classic Woofer SpeakerOne of the main design goals at Dayton Audio is to create loudspeakers that can achieve high levels of performance at reasonable prices. The Dayton Audio DC130B-4 5-1/4" woofer is a great example of this approach. It features a non-pressed...




www.parts-express.com













Home


Dayton Audio ND140-4 5-1/4" Aluminum Cone Midbass Neo Driver 4 OhmDayton Audio's compact aluminum cone drivers demonstrate the latest advances in high-excursion design processes. An efficient, low-distortion Neo-Balanced motor is combined with a rigid yet lightweight aluminum diaphragm, yielding...




www.parts-express.com





Would either of these work well for mid bass in my setup? They both have an RMS of 40, my amp runs 75, but I don't see any Daytons that have a higher RMS in the 5.25 size. Frequency handling of 50+ and 54+, respectively. I think I blew my last woofer running it at 80Hz, so I figure whatever I get I'll run 100Hz.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

The DC 130 might work but it rolls off around 120hz so i'd pass. The ND140 has a pretty high qts so it would be best IB rather than a small sealed box.

I think a good option would be the dayton RS 125 or 150 (5" or 6") in either the paper or alum. cone, what ever might be in stock. The size of daytons drivers is the OD so the 6 inch is closer to a 5 or 5.5 nominally sized woofer. So double check all the measurements to see what can fit.

I also would consider the SB acoustics or Zaph drivers I posted before. The Zaph doesn't have a ton a throw for 5.25.

another cheap option would be the silver flutes








Silver Flute W14RC25-04 ohm 5-1/2" Wool Cone


Silver Flute W14RC25-04 5-1/2" Wool Cone Woofer - 4 ohms Features include rubber surround and robust cast metal frame




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com





I would suggest running these through winisd to check for excursion limitations and how much power you can give them. You can model in different HPF's to see what you might need to run. I'd guess 4th order (24db) at 100Hz would be a good place to start.

I wouldn't worry too much about the power rating, its based on running the drivers a bit lower than what you're planning to. Thermally you should be OK. If you killed the other drivers thermally then you might want to consider a PA style woofer with more output (you should check this by tearing the speaker apart to check if the coil is roasted or if you just beat if off the back plate).


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> The DC 130 might work but it rolls off around 120hz so i'd pass. The ND140 has a pretty high qts so it would be best IB rather than a small sealed box.
> 
> I think a good option would be the dayton RS 125 or 150 (5" or 6") in either the paper or alum. cone, what ever might be in stock. The size of daytons drivers is the OD so the 6 inch is closer to a 5 or 5.5 nominally sized woofer. So double check all the measurements to see what can fit.
> 
> ...


Okay, I'll go measure the opening when the rain slackens a bit.

The Zaph is only in 8 ohm from what I can see from searching the site. The SB acoustics is interesting. A little more than I intended to pay, but if I can buy this once (at least not again in a year or two) and get some of the midbass I'm missing then it's worth it. I did find the Dayton RS-150-4 on Amazon (backordered almost two months on PE) for $60 each.

If I went with the silver flutes for now (I get the impression this hobby tends towards consistently upgrading things) would I be losing much versus the Dayton's? Compared to the cost of the RS150 they can be had for half.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I've tried winisd for box design and there's a learning curve that I'll have to overcome to make any sense of it, but I'll play with it more after the weekend.

After terminology googling you mentioned that the 140 has a high qts, so better for IB. Given that my dash speakers are currently not enclosed in any way would this be a viable option? My thoughts: the speaker pods are $90, then I would still need to buy the woofers, but the 140s alone would be a lot cheaper. Would I miss out on anything if I set it up this way?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I'll ask this as well. Would I be better off getting a subwoofer from one of these sites like Parts Express? I hadn't considered it until now. I was looking at a shallow-mount kicker or equivalent, but if going with brands like Dayton for a component speaker is the way to go, would a Dayton subwoofer be a good choice? I'm looking at their shallow mount subs. My enclosure is only 5.25" depth with an amp running 500w RMS at 4 ohm, 750w RMS at 2 ohm, though I'd honestly prefer 4 ohm, but it looks like the shallow mounts I'm seeing are 4-ohm DVC.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> I'll ask this as well. Would I be better off getting a subwoofer from one of these sites like Parts Express? I hadn't considered it until now. I was looking at a shallow-mount kicker or equivalent, but if going with brands like Dayton for a component speaker is the way to go, would a Dayton subwoofer be a good choice?


I would go with Dayton Sudio over Kicker any day, as for Parts Express, they're awesome.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> I've tried winisd for box design and there's a learning curve that I'll have to overcome to make any sense of it, but I'll play with it more after the weekend.
> 
> After terminology googling you mentioned that the 140 has a high qts, so better for IB. Given that my dash speakers are currently not enclosed in any way would this be a viable option? My thoughts: the speaker pods are $90, then I would still need to buy the woofers, but the 140s alone would be a lot cheaper. Would I miss out on anything if I set it up this way?


Well if those dash locations are open I would try out the ND140. I think it should play down to 100hz without running out of Xmax on your power. Response plots look good for a xover point with the tweeters in the 3-5kHz range which should work out just fine. If that all works out you might not need to worry about my crazy under seat midbass idea. 

Dayton are a good step up from the silver flutes. 

I would still verify what killed the previous speakers. Just so we know we're going in the right direction. 

IDK what the dash looks like but I'd consider a poly fill or denim insulation or open cell foam material behind the speaker to absorb alittle bit of the back wave. 



MercuryFlint said:


> I'll ask this as well. Would I be better off getting a subwoofer from one of these sites like Parts Express? I hadn't considered it until now. I was looking at a shallow-mount kicker or equivalent, but if going with brands like Dayton for a component speaker is the way to go, would a Dayton subwoofer be a good choice? I'm looking at their shallow mount subs. My enclosure is only 5.25" depth with an amp running 500w RMS at 4 ohm, 750w RMS at 2 ohm, though I'd honestly prefer 4 ohm, but it looks like the shallow mounts I'm seeing are 4-ohm DVC.


There are some good options for subs on PE as well (dayton audio is PE's house brand btw). The Dayton subs are great. 

Would need to know the specs on the enclosure to make recommendations. I assume its sealed? 

Not sure why you prefer 4 ohm vs 2 vs 1 on that amp. There is no correlation between impedance and SQ.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Oh I see it in your bio, 0.77 cu ft (*sealed I hope?????)* with 5.25 depth. The Dayton HO (dvc 4 ohm model) could work in this box. Though it would prefer a slightly smaller enclosure sealed. The other option would be to add an external port. 

sealed vs ported in a 0.7 enclosure. For 33 hz tuning you would need a 4 inch port that's 41.3 inch long (kinda long so you could used some elbows or tune a touch higher maybe). 










I added some HPF's at 30 hz for sealed and 25hz for ported to keep the xmax under 13mm on 600 watts. 









This mounting depth is right on the edge for what you would want for this subwoofer due to the pole vent on the rear of the motor. 

For a shallow mount option, the Sundown SD4 is well regarded. You could probably make the 10 or 12 work in your box. Mounting depth is under 5 inch but still have a good amount of throw. 

The mainstream and boutique car audio brands can make good or **** subwoofers. You just need to identify what your goals are and pick a sub to match the application. The dayton HO subs are designed for SQ and small enclosures (the svc model HO subs in particular, work well in super small boxes).


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Well if those dash locations are open I would try out the ND140. I think it should play down to 100hz without running out of Xmax on your power. Response plots look good for a xover point with the tweeters in the 3-5kHz range which should work out just fine. If that all works out you might not need to worry about my crazy under seat midbass idea.
> 
> Dayton are a good step up from the silver flutes.
> 
> ...


They're totally open. You can reach your hand through the speaker slot and out the bottom of the dash on both sides. I'll try to get pictures tomorrow when I pull the speaker. They sell aftermarket pods that fit those dash locations, but if I can get an IB speaker that will sound good then I'd rather put the $90 towards something else. It's not even a flat surface behind the speakers, just part of one of the AC tubes that feeds the dash vents and on one side part of the fuse box. I'm sure I could rig up some open cell foam (the silicone baffles I picked up come with a 6.5" circle of it). 

Okay, ND140s. Awesome, thank you. I like the 3 - 5 kHz range, at least from what I've played with, seems to be the sweet spot. I'm mostly following what you said, which is progress for me. 

I still think your idea is great, and after I get a DSP I still might go that route. I lose a *ton *of midbass when the windows are out of the Jeep. Highs come through fine, subs can be turned up with a bass knob, but mids just float off. I'm sure that'll be the difference between still having a little kick and actually _feeling_ that kick drum. 

It's an Atrend sealed .77 cu ft wedge. Shame is, the sloped side is the speaker side. I prefer rear-facing, and I can do it with this box, but the sub is pretty close to the tailgate the way it's sitting now. 

Dimensions Sub cut out:11.125”, mounting depth: 5.25”, Height: 15.25”, Width: 19.625”, Depth 1 (bottom): 8.25”Depth 2 (top): 5” 









Amazon.com: ATREND ENCLOSURES Bbox E12ST Pro-Series 12” Single Sealed Wedge Shaped Subwoofer Enclosure : Electronics


Buy ATREND ENCLOSURES Bbox E12ST Pro-Series 12” Single Sealed Wedge Shaped Subwoofer Enclosure: Subwoofer Boxes & Enclosures - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com





I've had it for years, well before I understood anything about boxes other than that you need one, and it's still solid. Still planning on wood gluing/caulking the seams inside and then looking into a way to add some bracing to it. Shouldn't need much, it's pretty well built for a pre-fab. 

But... I was always told you lose clarity when you drop impedance, that you traded more power/loudness for less-defined/muddier bass. Am... am I wrong?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Oh I see it in your bio, 0.77 cu ft (*sealed I hope?????)* with 5.25 depth. The Dayton HO (dvc 4 ohm model) could work in this box. Though it would prefer a slightly smaller enclosure sealed. The other option would be to add an external port.
> 
> sealed vs ported in a 0.7 enclosure. For 33 hz tuning you would need a 4 inch port that's 41.3 inch long (kinda long so you could used some elbows or tune a touch higher maybe).
> 
> ...



Ha, yes, sealed and very. 

Wow. I'm not sure how to read those graphs but I really want to understand it. Thank you for going to the effort with that. 

I guess I'm having a number of personal myths debunked. I didn't think you could add a port to a sealed enclosure. The tube doesn't have to be straight? If not, then elbows and having it come out the top would probably be idea. Can this be PVC or do I need some specialty kind of plastic? 

As far as my goals, I want clarity and bass I can feel. It doesn't have to shake the house across the street, but I want to feel it in my chest on thumping music, but I'm chasing as much SQ as I can. I want to hear and understand the music when at high speeds with the windows out. 

The sundown is interesting, but won't be within my budget for a bit. My worry about the Dayton low-profile is that it's rated to 250w RMS when this little sub amp would put out 600 - 700 at 2 ohms. Not sure how well those two would marry. I'll take any decent SQ sub that can fit in a 5" mounting depth at this point.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

You were saying the size of the Daytons doesn't quite run the same as others? I'm wondering if the ND-140s will fit the space.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> But... I was always told you lose clarity when you drop impedance, that you traded more power/loudness for less-defined/muddier bass.


No, just no. Impedance (Re and "nominal impedance") has absolutely nothing to do with how a subwoofer sounds, Le can greatly affect the sound though. Le is impedance that rises with frequency, so it can greatly affect the ability to play those higher frequencies. Lower Le is better.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

ckirocz28 said:


> No, just no. Impedance (Re and "nominal impedance") has absolutely nothing to do with how a subwoofer sounds, Le can greatly affect the sound though. Le is impedance that rises with frequency, so it can greatly affect the ability to play those higher frequencies. Lower Le is better.


I... my world is shattered. This is why I've been running at 4 ohms. Why I picked up the last sub I did. So I can run 2 ohms and it will be louder *and *still have the same audio quality as at 4 ohms 🤯

Impedance can change with frequency?? I didn't know that was possible....


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> I... my world is shattered. This is why I've been running at 4 ohms. Why I picked up the last sub I did. So I can run 2 ohms and it will be louder *and *still have the same audio quality as at 4 ohms
> 
> Impedance can change with frequency?? I didn't know that was possible....


For the first paragraph, they don't make dual 2 ohm subs so you can run them at 4 ohms, you could do that with a single 4 ohm coil.

For the second paragraph, it happens in every speaker. In the screenshot below, the blue line in the graph is the impedance, the peak happens at Fs (resonant frequency), past about 80 hz impedance starts to rise meaning the output will fall as the frequency increases, producing less midbass content and sounding less "crisp" or "tight". The output does not suffer at Fs because at and around that point the speaker resonates thus requiring less power for a given output. A lower Le yields a lesser slope for the high frequency impedance rise.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> They're totally open. You can reach your hand through the speaker slot and out the bottom of the dash on both sides. I'll try to get pictures tomorrow when I pull the speaker. They sell aftermarket pods that fit those dash locations, but if I can get an IB speaker that will sound good then I'd rather put the $90 towards something else. It's not even a flat surface behind the speakers, just part of one of the AC tubes that feeds the dash vents and on one side part of the fuse box. I'm sure I could rig up some open cell foam (the silicone baffles I picked up come with a 6.5" circle of it).
> 
> Okay, ND140s. Awesome, thank you. I like the 3 - 5 kHz range, at least from what I've played with, seems to be the sweet spot. I'm mostly following what you said, which is progress for me.
> 
> ...


You need to scroll down on the Part express page for those drivers. Take the dimensions for the driver and then go out and check if they fit in the Jeep. With these raw drivers you find a large range of dimensions at different nominal sizes. I have two pairs of 4 inch midrange drivers from two different manufacturers, one has an OD around 4.5 inches the other over 5 inches OD. 

Car audio drivers have to strictly follow the nominal size for install locations as these are universal from the automotive OEM's, so a 5.25 from Kicker or Alpine or whoever will almost always fit the same installation. 

One issue with the dash speaker venting straight through the floor is that (mostly in the low frequencies and mid bass) you will have a ton of cancelation. This is caused by the two sound waves produced by the front and rear of the cone. One is out of phase with the other and will create cancelation. You'll need to either seal up dash, install enclosures, or add some absorption in the dash prevent the rear sound wave from interacting with the cabin. 

Regarding the options you have available, it seems the enclosures are too expensive. Personally I would try to make my own for PVC, FG, wood, etc. You might be able to get some thin wall 6 inch PVC installed from below to create an enclosure and stuff it with poly fill or some thing.

The enclosures might require tools and fabrication skill that you do not currently have so that leaves you with the third option, stuff the dash with some material. The more the better, but be reasonable. I would take a cheap foam mattress topper and create layers of foam, as thick as possible, in the dash cavity. I would use some hot glue or spray adhesive as you go. Avoid installing the foam too close to electronics, sources of heat, electrical, etc. 


MercuryFlint said:


> They're totally open. You can reach your hand through the speaker slot and out the bottom of the dash on both sides. I'll try to get pictures tomorrow when I pull the speaker. They sell aftermarket pods that fit those dash locations, but if I can get an IB speaker that will sound good then I'd rather put the $90 towards something else. It's not even a flat surface behind the speakers, just part of one of the AC tubes that feeds the dash vents and on one side part of the fuse box. I'm sure I could rig up some open cell foam (the silicone baffles I picked up come with a 6.5" circle of it).
> 
> Okay, ND140s. Awesome, thank you. I like the 3 - 5 kHz range, at least from what I've played with, seems to be the sweet spot. I'm mostly following what you said, which is progress for me.
> 
> ...


You could also use a "loose" poly fill, denim insulation, or something like that but I would enclose that stuff in plastic bags or plastic drop cloth. 

With the windows out you've basically taken a room and turned into an open air concert. The acoustic terms are diffuse field and free field. The mids and highs are good because those sound sources are up on the dash and directed towards the listening position by the windshield. The midbass and subbass is largely driven by your subwoofer currently so if its aimed towards the rear and doesn't have a room to pressurize you lose all your cabin gain (boost below 100 hz). On top of that, a large amount of noise is now entering the cabin in the bass and midbass frequencies which probably explains the lack of any perceived output. I suspect the the directivity of the sub might also be at play in the upper midbass as well. I would aim the sub(s) forward. 

The sub enclosure you linked is the 12 inch model, do you have the 10 or 12? '

here is the 10 inch, it has 5.5 inch of mounting depth but otherwise the same box. You would probably need to do a little geometry to figure out if a sub can fit, depends abit of the size of the magnet.
That said, 5.5inches for a 10 can work ok. 








Amazon.com: Bbox E10ST Pro-Series 10” Single Sealed Wedge Shaped Subwoofer Enclosure : Electronics


Amazon.com: Bbox E10ST Pro-Series 10” Single Sealed Wedge Shaped Subwoofer Enclosure : Electronics



smile.amazon.com





Generally, slim subs suck. They sacrifice Xmax to gain that smaller depth and typically have issues getting as loud as a normal sub design. If you have room around the enclosure for some extra depth you could use a set of subwoofer mounting spacers to get even more depth. 



Amazon.com : 10 inch subwoofer spacer



The only way you can address the lack of bass, midbass, punch, etc when you have the windows out is more output. You have a 1000 watts on tap. I've also googled your vehicle and it looks like you could run a 2nd subwoofer enclosure or build something larger if you're willing to give up the space. 

What NVX sub did you have before? Was it this one? 








NVX VSW104v2 |300W RMS VS-Series 10" Dual 4 ohm Car Subwoofer


NVX VSW104v2 VSW104 v2 • 500W Peak 300W RMS 10" VS-Series Dual 4-ohm Car Subwoofer • 10" VS-Series Subwoofer • Dual 4-ohm Voice Coil • RMS Range: 350 - 500 Watts • Non-Pressed Paper With Woven Carbon Fiber Top • High Excursion Foam Surround • Stamped Steel Basket • Single Nomex Spider




www.sonicelectronix.com





These look interesting on paper (for the money) with the advertised alum shorting ring... If they can take 500 watts in a 0.7 cu ft box that might make for an OK purchase. I would buy the DVC 4 ohm model and wire it 2ohm at the amp. Later try to add another matching sub if you need more output which would be 1000 watts at 1ohm (500 per sub). 

The dayton driver is clearly better but my impression is that you're not trying to spend that much here... Two of these 10 inch nvx subs ($100 each) plus a matching enclosure for ($60) would be a good buy IMO. 


_But... I was always told you lose clarity when you drop impedance, that you traded more power/loudness for less-defined/muddier bass. Am... am I wrong?_

Don't know what the context of this statement was made in but it's completely wrong. The only thing this might be getting at would be a situation where you have a ton of bass and then a null in the midbass frequencies. The large null in response might give you the impress of muddy bass but really its just a lack of midbass and poor frequency response. 



MercuryFlint said:


> Ha, yes, sealed and very.
> 
> Wow. I'm not sure how to read those graphs but I really want to understand it. Thank you for going to the effort with that.
> 
> ...


The tube wouldn't have to be straight at all, its just column of air that resonates at a particular frequency. You dont want a ton of bends in it but a couple would be fine. Typically a ported box is designed with the port inside the box but its not necessary to do so. 

I wouldn't touch the low profile dayton for this, the HO 10" 44 would be my only consideration here. There are some other options as well.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

ckirocz28 said:


> For the first paragraph, they don't make dual 2 ohm subs so you can run them at 4 ohms, you could do that with a single 4 ohm coil.
> 
> For the second paragraph, it happens in every speaker. In the screenshot below, the blue line in the graph is the impedance, the peak happens at Fs (resonant frequency), past about 80 hz impedance starts to rise meaning the output will fall as the frequency increases, producing less midbass content and sounding less "crisp" or "tight". The output does not suffer at Fs because at and around that point the speaker resonates thus requiring less power for a given output. A lower Le yields a lesser slope for the high frequency impedance rise.


Is the only purpose then to give you option to lower? I'm slightly confused by your first statement. 

Ohhhh, okay, that makes sense (the graphs help). Since the numbers didn't seem to match the numbers in the upper part of the screen shot I take it you have to run the speakers T/S values through winisd in order to see this figure?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> You need to scroll down on the Part express page for those drivers. Take the dimensions for the driver and then go out and check if they fit in the Jeep. With these raw drivers you find a large range of dimensions at different nominal sizes. I have two pairs of 4 inch midrange drivers from two different manufacturers, one has an OD around 4.5 inches the other over 5 inches OD.
> 
> Car audio drivers have to strictly follow the nominal size for install locations as these are universal from the automotive OEM's, so a 5.25 from Kicker or Alpine or whoever will almost always fit the same installation.
> 
> ...



Would you clarify what "OD" stands for? It's been pouring rain all evening so I'll have to go measure those spaces in the morning.

I am trying to save money, though I'm willing to put a little more in so that I can get it good enough to take a break for a while and save up for better stuff. It sounds like I'd be better off going with the RS150s with the enclosures, then. I'll take some pictures in the morning of what I'm working with, but the spaces in the dash, while large, are also somewhat twisting and FULL of wiring. Part of it is OEM design, a lot has to do with how I ran my amplifier. My 4 channel is strapped to the underside of my steering column, both to reduce the wiring from the HU and battery to the unit but also to make it a little more difficult to steal. Not impossible, just harder on a smash-and-grab.

These are the enclosures for my Jeep: Amazon.com: Select Increments 1997-2002 Compatible with Jeep TJ Wrangler Dash Pods Enclosures Only DPE97025 : Everything Else

I might be able to PVC rig something up, but it'll be tough with the limited tools I have on hand. Never tried much at fabrication. It might end up being less costly to buy those prefab pods, but I'll post some pictures up and, if you aren't opposed, see what kind of input you could give.

Plastic bags with polyfill would be doable. However, it seems that since containing the backwave is the ideal situation I should just do that as a temporary measure. At the moment I have foam baffles installed with silicone baffles surrounding those (I already had these lying around and figured it wouldn't hurt), and those stuffed with polyfill. It does help the midbass a bit, at least. I was considering lining these with some leftover CLD I have, but don't know if that would really aid much.

I see the analogy, it basicaly is an open-air concert at that point. This is a situation where I would be leaning on the bass knob heavily to make up for lost bass.

I actually have both a 10" and 12" box, though the 12" is what I linked. Neither has the depth allowance for any of the subs I really want. At some point I'll either have to try my hand at building a box, or pay someone to do it. The latter being pretty pricey (the quotes I'm getting are all $400+) I wanted something I could run in a pre-fab box, but that mounting depth is murder on finding a good driver.

This is the 10" box I have: Amazon.com: Single 10" Subwoofer Regular Standard Cab Truck Sub Box Enclosure 5/8" MDF : Electronics

The NVX one you linked is the one I have. If I'm being fair, it just doesn't keep up. The minute the bass is turned up enough to feel you can hear the thing overworking. It gives me "fill" in the music, but individual bass notes are mild when the vehicle is stationary, non-existent when the vehicle is moving. I've heard the better line of NVX subs in other vehicles and the output is solid, at least from my limited experience. I wouldn't mind one, but they just won't fit. The mounting rings you linked are 3/4", so with that box at 5 5/16" I would have a little over 6". The top tier NVX sub is 6" mounting depth, so it just might work, but it'll be close. 

I'm completely willing to sacrifice the entire cargo area, it's just limited when I have the back seat upright. It does fold up, but I'd rather not sacrifice my back seat or have to move the sub out every time I wanted to have more than one passenger. I haven't been able to find any boxes that are narrow enough to fit two side by side. They're all one to two inches too wide.

I can get the NVX subs for about half the price, so if the mounting rings would work, one of the VCW line would run $100, already have the box, and $20 for spacer rings. 4-ohm DVC wired to 2-ohm.

I really appreciate the amount of research and work you've done so far on my behalf. It's saving me a great deal of headache and misspent money.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Would you clarify what "OD" stands for? It's been pouring rain all evening so I'll have to go measure those spaces in the morning.

*-outer diameter*

I am trying to save money, though I'm willing to put a little more in so that I can get it good enough to take a break for a while and save up for better stuff. It sounds like I'd be better off going with the RS150s with the enclosures, then. I'll take some pictures in the morning of what I'm working with, but the spaces in the dash, while large, are also somewhat twisting and FULL of wiring. Part of it is OEM design, a lot has to do with how I ran my amplifier. My 4 channel is strapped to the underside of my steering column, both to reduce the wiring from the HU and battery to the unit but also to make it a little more difficult to steal. Not impossible, just harder on a smash-and-grab.

These are the enclosures for my Jeep: Amazon.com: Select Increments 1997-2002 Compatible with Jeep TJ Wrangler Dash Pods Enclosures Only DPE97025 : Everything Else

*-oh I was picturing up firing drivers from the top of the dash not these. I think some time of enclosure is required. Those pods are some expensive hunks of plastic. I'm thinking these would be required. Any idea what the volume of the enclosures are? *

I might be able to PVC rig something up, but it'll be tough with the limited tools I have on hand. Never tried much at fabrication. It might end up being less costly to buy those prefab pods, but I'll post some pictures up and, if you aren't opposed, see what kind of input you could give.

*-Not sure how much space is around the dash area but you could take a 6 inch pvc end cap and epoxy it to a mounting baffle. Seems like its possible to do but time is money, maybe just buy the prefabs. *

Plastic bags with polyfill would be doable. However, it seems that since containing the backwave is the ideal situation I should just do that as a temporary measure. At the moment I have foam baffles installed with silicone baffles surrounding those (I already had these lying around and figured it wouldn't hurt), and those stuffed with polyfill. It does help the midbass a bit, at least. I was considering lining these with some leftover CLD I have, but don't know if that would really aid much.

*-You could take those silicon baffles and make a mold of them with fiberglass. Not sure what kind of volume that they have but you want something around 0.1 cu ft. *

I see the analogy, it basically is an open-air concert at that point. This is a situation where I would be leaning on the bass knob heavily to make up for lost bass.

I actually have both a 10" and 12" box, though the 12" is what I linked. Neither has the depth allowance for any of the subs I really want. At some point I'll either have to try my hand at building a box, or pay someone to do it. The latter being pretty pricey (the quotes I'm getting are all $400+) I wanted something I could run in a pre-fab box, but that mounting depth is murder on finding a good driver.

This is the 10" box I have: Amazon.com: Single 10" Subwoofer Regular Standard Cab Truck Sub Box Enclosure 5/8" MDF : Electronics

The NVX one you linked is the one I have. If I'm being fair, it just doesn't keep up. The minute the bass is turned up enough to feel you can hear the thing overworking. It gives me "fill" in the music, but individual bass notes are mild when the vehicle is stationary, non-existent when the vehicle is moving. I've heard the better line of NVX subs in other vehicles and the output is solid, at least from my limited experience. I wouldn't mind one, but they just won't fit. The mounting rings you linked are 3/4", so with that box at 5 5/16" I would have a little over 6". The top tier NVX sub is 6" mounting depth, so it just might work, but it'll be close.

*-You would need something like this for a dual sub setup, double check if you think this is compatible. Custom Jeep Wrangler Yj Tj 87-06 Dual Subwoofer Enclosure Bass Speaker Sub Box | eBay
-I think you just flat out need more output in the midbass and bass frequencies. Your vehicle isn't working for you like most others. 
-Not sure what the cost effective option would be here. Maybe the 2x 10 inch box I linked (assuming that its the correct fitment) and running one or two of the nvx you currently have. Or stepping up to some better subs later on. Apparently the box I link has separate chambers so you could start with one sub and then add another later. 
-The shallow mount enclosures you currently have are holding you back from picking a higher output 10 or 12 sub that can handle 1k watts from your amp. *

I'm completely willing to sacrifice the entire cargo area, it's just limited when I have the back seat upright. It does fold up, but I'd rather not sacrifice my back seat or have to move the sub out every time I wanted to have more than one passenger. I haven't been able to find any boxes that are narrow enough to fit two side by side. They're all one to two inches too wide.

I can get the NVX subs for about half the price, so if the mounting rings would work, one of the VCW line would run $100, already have the box, and $20 for spacer rings. 4-ohm DVC wired to 2-ohm.

*-It looks like the dual 4 ohm 10" VCW's are out of stock? What brands or sites do you have 1/2 price from? The VCW could be a good option if you're getting these at half price.. End of the day, you need displacement.. *

I really appreciate the amount of research and work you've done so far on my behalf. It's saving me a great deal of headache and misspent money.

*Np, alot of big problems and compromises to this vehicle and install so its interesting install to help with. *


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

not sure if this site is legit, but the price is cheaper.. Jeep Wrangler 1987 - 2006 YJ & TJ Dual 10" Subwoofer Box Sealed Enclosure (Grey) - JEEP2X10


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

*outer diameter*

Ahhhhh, now I'm tracking.

*oh I was picturing up firing drivers from the top of the dash not these. I think some time of enclosure is required. Those pods are some expensive hunks of plastic. I'm thinking these would be required. Any idea what the volume of the enclosures are?*

As far as pods, yes, there are some dash corner pods I could get for the same price as what I would pay for the dash ones, but the largest I've found is 4". I do have some 4" rounds laying around, but I found the midbass was better in the 5.25"s. However, directionality is probably better in the 4" rounds on the dash, and I'm sure I could those pods in the same price range and drivers in the same price range. What do you think?

*Not sure how much space is around the dash area but you could take a 6 inch pvc end cap and epoxy it to a mounting baffle. Seems like its possible to do but time is money, maybe just buy the prefabs. *

I'll just have to see where I could put them. To fit 6" rounds _in_ the dash in the 5.25" slots I would have to cut part of the dash frame out. I'll work on getting the speakers out and show you what I'm working with in terms of those in-dash spots.

*You could take those silicon baffles and make a mold of them with fiberglass. Not sure what kind of volume that they have but you want something around 0.1 cu ft.*

Never worked with fiberglass before. Fairly easy? Would I actually save money versus buying those pods? Though I could control the box volume if I did it myself.

*You would need something like this for a dual sub setup, double check if you think this is compatible. Custom Jeep Wrangler Yj Tj 87-06 Dual Subwoofer Enclosure Bass Speaker Sub Box | eBay*

Man, I have absolutely no idea how you found even one of those that cheap. I have Googled, eBay'd, Amazon'd for hours trying to find one under $400. That's amazing. Yes, with that box (which I've wanted) I wouldn't have to worry about depth, which would be amazing.

*I think you just flat out need more output in the midbass and bass frequencies. Your vehicle isn't working for you like most others.*

By more output do you mean a better amp, better drivers, or both?

*Not sure what the cost effective option would be here. Maybe the 2x 10 inch box I linked (assuming that its the correct fitment) and running one or two of the nvx you currently have. Or stepping up to some better subs later on. Apparently the box I link has separate chambers so you could start with one sub and then add another later.*

I didn't realize you could run just one sub in that box. That would probably be the best first step in terms of order-of-upgrades. Then I could just work on getting upgraded subs. If I bought the better NVX 10" sub could I run that and the lower level one together, or just run the better sub solo until I could get a second? I've read that the downward firing would help retain some bass when the windows are out since it would pass better through the cab. I'm no expert on this.

*The shallow mount enclosures you currently have are holding you back from picking a higher output 10 or 12 sub that can handle 1k watts from your amp. *

Yeah, it's a bear finding anything that fits that spot without it being custom.

*It looks like the dual 4 ohm 10" VCW's are out of stock? What brands or sites do you have 1/2 price from? The VCW could be a good option if you're getting these at half price.. End of the day, you need displacement.. *

The VCW's are stuck in customs at the moment, but they should come in soon enough. I could work on getting the better box before I get those anyways, so it would be a little bit. I get almost anything from Sonic Electronix at about half price. We get good deals on NVX because we know the owner and are on good terms with them. A lot of guys there run the VCW series of subs because they are fairly well underrated. I work with a lot of people who are very into car audio, but their level of expertise is middling. Most don't run the front-only drivers or care much about soundstaging, so I'm reaching out here for better advice on system building.

*Np, alot of big problems and compromises to this vehicle and install so its interesting install to help with.*

I'm glad it's interesting, at least! It's certainly a puzzle making this work. I'm determined to get the quality better in terms of SQ. My goal is overcoming that road noise. Next year I plan on sound treating everything. Had some decent recommendations on the deadening forum for a ceramic coating on the tub, CLD (likely a small amount of Resonix on the transmission tunnel as it gets extremely hot after a bit of driving, and Resonix would likely be the best for heat and knocking down that vibration), then NVX CLD on the lower-temp areas. I already put some on the tailgate and have the one sub firing into that, seems pretty solid, but I could switch it to facing the cab. 

Pictures incoming in just a bit. Oh, in terms of those damaged speakers I would have to see if they're still available. I was able to switch them out for some cheap 5.25"s so at least I had *something* to listen to.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

You might be better off with the pods. FG is a time consuming process and the results might not be too different than what the pods will offer. 

I think you're fine with your current sub amp and 4 channel. You might need another 2 or 4 channel to run a 3 way front stage. The current 4 channel is plenty for mids and highs. Bridging an addition 4 channel to a pair of midbass might be something to consider. Toro makes some mini amps that you could hide somewhere. Or whatever you might access to at sonic elections like another nvx vadm4. I think you mentioned that you have some 6.5 rear pods? maybe you can run that 80-250 Hz as some extra midbass (you'll need the dsp to make it work). Otherwise, something under seat or kick panel midbass might be something to consider. 

The choice between 5.25 pods in the dash vs 4 inch on the pillars is exactly as you said. The 4 inch wouldn't output anything below 200Hz so you would need to run midbass. The 5.25 can probably play down to around 100-150 Hz. So they would have a better chance blending with a subwoofer. You still might have problems below 250Hz in a Jeep due to noise and vehicle acoustics. 

For the subs, you dont want to run different drivers off the same amp at the same time. Just creates more issues. I would just piece it together as you go. 
1- new box, 2- new 10 inch, 3- 2nd new 10 inch. Make sure you get the dvc 4 ohm models.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

That's where I'm leaning. A lot of work, and while I'd love to have the skill, I think the initial investment and likely a few failed attempts would likely equal the cost of just buying those. 

I will eventually get that signal processor (shame there's not a better selection on SE) and another amp. The VADM2 is an option, though I could get a VADM4 and bridge it, to get those 6.5"s moving. If you think the directionality wouldn't throw off the sound staging it would be a sight easier to just run them to the sound bar. That proximity to my head is worrisome, and I'll eventually find some way to move them to the kick panels or under the seat (if I can find a box for them that'll fit I'll likely just do that over kick panels, though I'll have to relocate my sub amp, which if I buy that box I might see if I can mount it there, or maybe I'll just mount it under the passenger seat instead). 

So, sub box, better sub, speaker pods, RD150s, another better sub, signal processor, micro/mini amp, speaker boxes for under seats or kick panel 6.5s, sound treatment. This seems like a solid plan. 

I greatly appreciate your advice. Once I start gathering pieces I'll post up my progress. I can barely wait, I've owned this Jeep for a decade and never had the means to get my stereo to a good level. After I finish all of this, as well as some repairs to my Jeep, I'll look into getting into that next tier of stereo. Now to figure out how to make my sub amp a little more theft resistant. 

One more question, if you don't mind me asking. How much benefit would I get from turning this sealed 10" box into a ported? If I wanted to do so for the current 10" sub, what would the tube need to be made of? I'm wondering if I could pull this off with some PVC coming out of the box. It wouldn't be hard to extend the tube off the side, now that I think on it, since I could move the box to one side and have the tube sticking out of the other. I could run it most of the way in along the width of the box over top of the sub, then whatever extra out the side. At least until I get the better sub box it would be an easy way to get a little more out of this current sub. 

I wish I knew a way to make the sub run a little louder. I have the gain about a quarter way up, wired to 4 ohm, bass boost turned down, no HU bass boost or boosted EQ in the sub range (it's actually cut a bit) and the moment I turn that bass knob it sounds like it's being overstressed. Hums in a way that doesn't sound like music.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

That's where I'm leaning. A lot of work, and while I'd love to have the skill, I think the initial investment and likely a few failed attempts would likely equal the cost of just buying those.

I will eventually get that signal processor (shame there's not a better selection on SE) and another amp. The VADM2 is an option, though I could get a VADM4 and bridge it, to get those 6.5"s moving. If you think the directionality wouldn't throw off the sound staging it would be a sight easier to just run them to the sound bar. That proximity to my head is worrisome, and I'll eventually find some way to move them to the kick panels or under the seat (if I can find a box for them that'll fit I'll likely just do that over kick panels, though I'll have to relocate my sub amp, which if I buy that box I might see if I can mount it there, or maybe I'll just mount it under the passenger seat instead).

*I like bridging 4 channels for midbass. I'm not sure what the 6.5 in the sound bar would sound like playing just midbass (80-250 Hz) from behind your head, might work... I certainly wouldn't run them full range for SQ necessarily. *

So, sub box, better sub, speaker pods, RD150s, another better sub, signal processor, micro/mini amp, speaker boxes for under seats or kick panel 6.5s, sound treatment. This seems like a solid plan.

*Ya seems Ok. I would suggest moving the sound treatment up a few steps. I think you'll find a few more rattles with two 10s and 1000 watts pumping. And would be best for you to get the basic 2way + sub installation functioning in the best environment possible before moving forward with DSP. 

-sub box, better sub, speaker pods, RS150s (check if they can fit), another better sub, sound treatment, signal processor, micro/mini amp, speaker boxes for under seats or kick panel 6.5s

You might find that 5.25 inch in pods w/ the pair of 10s is satisfactory so you might not need the to spend cash on the DSP and the extra 6.5s. In which case just move on to the sound deadening. I also noticed that SE carries JL audio DSPs so I would consider the TwK 88 over the AudioControl if you get the same discount. 

Are these the 6.5 inch over head pods? Vertically Driven Products 793501 Overhead Sound Pods for 87-06 Jeep Wrangler YJ, TJ & Unlimited (or something similar?). I would try to make these work for the 6.5 midbass for sure. I think you might want to apply a little deadener inside the box to stiffen it up and stuff it will some poly fill. If they're really flimsy then maybe try some fiberglass milkshake treatment.*

I greatly appreciate your advice. Once I start gathering pieces I'll post up my progress. I can barely wait, I've owned this Jeep for a decade and never had the means to get my stereo to a good level. After I finish all of this, as well as some repairs to my Jeep, I'll look into getting into that next tier of stereo. Now to figure out how to make my sub amp a little more theft resistant.

*I think the under seat locations will have to be used for your amps. *

One more question, if you don't mind me asking. How much benefit would I get from turning this sealed 10" box into a ported? If I wanted to do so for the current 10" sub, what would the tube need to be made of? I'm wondering if I could pull this off with some PVC coming out of the box. It wouldn't be hard to extend the tube off the side, now that I think on it, since I could move the box to one side and have the tube sticking out of the other. I could run it most of the way in along the width of the box over top of the sub, then whatever extra out the side. At least until I get the better sub box it would be an easy way to get a little more out of this current sub.

*I can model it up real quick. Is this the correct model? VSW102v2 | 500 Watts RMS Dual 2-ohm 10" Car Subwoofer*

I wish I knew a way to make the sub run a little louder. I have the gain about a quarter way up, wired to 4 ohm, bass boost turned down, no HU bass boost or boosted EQ in the sub range (it's actually cut a bit) and the moment I turn that bass knob it sounds like it's being overstressed. Hums in a way that doesn't sound like music.

*If you hear distortion than that's probably the limits of the driver/amp. This is a hearing test you can try out. The distortion you described will likely sound similar to what's presented in this video. 




You could try adding a HPF (subsonic on your amp) to see if that allows you to push the sub a little harder. But you're likely at its limit. *


----------



## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

*I like bridging 4 channels for midbass. I'm not sure what the 6.5 in the sound bar would sound like playing just midbass (80-250 Hz) from behind your head, might work... I certainly wouldn't run them full range for SQ necessarily.*

Not at all. It took a few days to get used to having front-only two-way, but I quickly found that I enjoyed the music more, even if it felt strange. Not going back from that. Why do you prefer bridging channels as opposed to running a two-channel?



*Ya seems Ok. I would suggest moving the sound treatment up a few steps. I think you'll find a few more rattles with two 10s and 1000 watts pumping. And would be best for you to get the basic 2way + sub installation functioning in the best environment possible before moving forward with DSP.*

Makes sense. I would like to get the sound treatment going. If nothing else, driving a vehicle as noisy as this one leads to a lot of driving fatigue, which doesn’t work well with as much as I drive. I’d love to just slap the CLD I have down and go about business, but if I’m going to do it once I may as well do it right. 



*You might find that 5.25 inch in pods w/ the pair of 10s is satisfactory so you might not need the to spend cash on the DSP and the extra 6.5s. In which case just move on to the sound deadening. I also noticed that SE carries JL audio DSPs so I would consider the TwK 88 over the AudioControl if you get the same discount.*

Same discount, which makes the TwK 88 cheaper than the AC. I did find a miniDSP on PE for about $350, which is $100 more than the TwK, so when I do go the DSP route do you find the mini to be substantially better than the TwK? 



*Are these the 6.5 inch over head pods? Vertically Driven Products 793501 Overhead Sound Pods for 87-06 Jeep Wrangler YJ, TJ & Unlimited (or something similar?). I would try to make these work for the 6.5 midbass for sure. I think you might want to apply a little deadener inside the box to stiffen it up and stuff it will some poly fill. If they're really flimsy then maybe try some fiberglass milkshake treatment.*

Close, but mine are the regular sound bar. Sits in the same space, has 6.5” spots, pretty sturdy plastic, but the two speakers are connected by a few feet of open space between them. I bought the silicone speaker baffles specifically to help separate the two speakers, along with a bunch of polyfill in between them. 



*I can model it up real quick. Is this the correct model? VSW102v2 | 500 Watts RMS Dual 2-ohm 10" Car Subwoofer*

Awesome, thank you! Yes, those are the ones. 



*If you hear distortion than that's probably the limits of the driver/amp. This is a hearing test you can try out. The distortion you described will likely sound similar to what's presented in this video.*

That video was helpful, now I get what distortion is, but it doesn’t sound like that. It’s more like, how do I describe this… when a bass note hits, on a sub that’s keeping up with it, it’s just a bass note, a deep tone. When my sub hits hard the bass note seems higher pitch, and like a hum that doesn’t quite match the music. It doesn’t sound correct. When I switched out the 10” with an old 12” MTX the music sounded fine. Not with the 10”. But it doesn’t sound distorted at all. Just odd. 



*You could try adding a HPF (subsonic on your amp) to see if that allows you to push the sub a little harder. But you're likely at its limit.*

I think I am. I figured out what the subsonic feature was, tried cranking it all the way to max, didn’t seem to help much.


----------



## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> *I like bridging 4 channels for midbass. I'm not sure what the 6.5 in the sound bar would sound like playing just midbass (80-250 Hz) from behind your head, might work... I certainly wouldn't run them full range for SQ necessarily.*
> 
> Not at all. It took a few days to get used to having front-only two-way, but I quickly found that I enjoyed the music more, even if it felt strange. Not going back from that. Why do you prefer bridging channels as opposed to running a two-channel?


More power!



MercuryFlint said:


> *You might find that 5.25 inch in pods w/ the pair of 10s is satisfactory so you might not need the to spend cash on the DSP and the extra 6.5s. In which case just move on to the sound deadening. I also noticed that SE carries JL audio DSPs so I would consider the TwK 88 over the AudioControl if you get the same discount.*
> 
> Same discount, which makes the TwK 88 cheaper than the AC. I did find a miniDSP on PE for about $350, which is $100 more than the TwK, so when I do go the DSP route do you find the mini to be substantially better than the TwK?


twk 88 is better than the minidsp 6x8 so go for that instead. Half price is hell of deal.



MercuryFlint said:


> *Are these the 6.5 inch over head pods? Vertically Driven Products 793501 Overhead Sound Pods for 87-06 Jeep Wrangler YJ, TJ & Unlimited (or something similar?). I would try to make these work for the 6.5 midbass for sure. I think you might want to apply a little deadener inside the box to stiffen it up and stuff it will some poly fill. If they're really flimsy then maybe try some fiberglass milkshake treatment.*
> 
> Close, but mine are the regular sound bar. Sits in the same space, has 6.5” spots, pretty sturdy plastic, but the two speakers are connected by a few feet of open space between them. I bought the silicone speaker baffles specifically to help separate the two speakers, along with a bunch of polyfill in between them.


Gotcha, still worth a try to use as stereo midbass even with the shared air space I think.



MercuryFlint said:


> *If you hear distortion than that's probably the limits of the driver/amp. This is a hearing test you can try out. The distortion you described will likely sound similar to what's presented in this video.*
> 
> That video was helpful, now I get what distortion is, but it doesn’t sound like that. It’s more like, how do I describe this… when a bass note hits, on a sub that’s keeping up with it, it’s just a bass note, a deep tone. When my sub hits hard the bass note seems higher pitch, and like a hum that doesn’t quite match the music. It doesn’t sound correct. When I switched out the 10” with an old 12” MTX the music sounded fine. Not with the 10”. But it doesn’t sound distorted at all. Just odd.


Humm, Maybe an air leak around the sub or in the box.. could also be over excursion. Hope you're not bouncing the former off the backplate..



MercuryFlint said:


> *You could try adding a HPF (subsonic on your amp) to see if that allows you to push the sub a little harder. But you're likely at its limit.*
> 
> I think I am. I figured out what the subsonic feature was, tried cranking it all the way to max, didn’t seem to help much.


Its just a high pass filter which prevents the subwoofer from playing frequencies that are too low for it to reproduce. I have some recommendations below for where to set it, (around 36 Hz)



MercuryFlint said:


> *I can model it up real quick. Is this the correct model? VSW102v2 | 500 Watts RMS Dual 2-ohm 10" Car Subwoofer*
> 
> Awesome, thank you! Yes, those are the ones.


Blue is sealed (.7 cu ft), Green is ported (.7 cu ft net @ 36 Hz).

As you can see, you have several dB more output but the i'm not sure what to expect from the in vehicle response. It probably wont hit super lows really hard but it helps for sure.









In the transfer function plot here you can see that the gain is about 3dB at 54 Hz. The rule of thumb i'm familiar with is to keep this under 3dB.










You can make the response abit less peaky by tuning lower. Here pink is tuned to 30Hz vs green which is 36 Hz. The port just has to be way longer to tune lower of course.











SPL - 500 watts for each. You can play around with the port length to get response somewhere between the 30hz and 36 hz lines.










A 4 inch port would be required to keep the air velocity reasonable.

the 30hz tune would be 50.60 inch long, the 36Hz tune is 34.25 inches long. I'm guessing with this much 4 inch pipe outside the box you'll be limited to some length. Feel free to use as many elbows as you need. Just make sure the port exit is free of obstruction.









Looking at Cone Excursion you can see that the sub needs a high pass filter (subsonic) just below the tuning frequency to avoid killing the sub.

You'll also see that the blue line (which is your current sealed box) is running over Xmax below 50 Hz... Probably the noise you're hearing (not good).









My suggestion for subsonic filter frequencies are:

ported @ 36 Hz - HPF at 32 Hz.
Ported @ 30 Hz - HPF at 30 Hz
Sealed - HPF at 36 Hz









Here is the new SPL plots with the proper HPF running.









After applying the subsonic filters (HPF) you could consider running a 3 inch port. i think 4 inch would be the way to go but 3 inch could work if you're tight on space.

36hz tune would be 18.72 inch long, 30 hz would be 27.92 inches long.










Anyways, definitely worth trying ported out. Getting an extra 5dB between 30Hz and 60Hz is a pretty big gain. Just make sure to seal things up good when you install the PVC. The mount to the box is crucial. I'd use some good 2 part epoxy. You can play with the port length by just taping up the elbows and stuff initially before glueing after your try out different tunings.

For now, try that HPF around 35 Hz and see if that distortion goes away. You might be able to push the sub a bit harder with the proper filter setting.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

*More power!*

Hahahahaha. Perfect. 



*Gotcha, still worth a try to use as stereo midbass even with the shared air space I think.*

I wouldn’t imagine it being too hard to separate them, anyways. There’s a decent amount of volume in each “pod.” 

* 

Humm, Maybe an air leak around the sub or in the box.. could also be over excursion. Hope you're not bouncing the former off the backplate..*

Not sure what the “bouncing the former off the backplate” means, but it terms of leaks, I couldn’t find one when I checked it a few weeks ago. However, I did pick up some wood glue and some kind of caulk I found recommended on this site (I’m not at home so I can’t check). Do you think glue + caulk would work for sealing the port? If not, I’ll look for some epoxy. 



*Blue is sealed (.7 cu ft), Green is ported (.7 cu ft net @ 36 Hz).*

I’m not in *any* way asking you to do all of this again, but would the internal volume being .75 cu ft make a large difference in your recommendations? I may have made the calculations incorrectly, but from the box listing:



(20” – 2(.625”)) x (15” – 2(.625”)) x ((5”-7.5”) – 2(.625)) / 1728 = .745 cu ft. 

(width – 5/8 MDF thickness) x (height – 5.8 MDF thickness) x ((top depth – bottom depth) – 5/8 MDF thickness) – 1728

* 

I'm guessing with this much 4 inch pipe outside the box you'll be limited to some length. Feel free to use as many elbows as you need. Just make sure the port exit is free of obstruction.*

I think I could pull it off with a large length. I could run a tube straight across for 18”, a few inches out with two elbows to put the tube horizontal across the top of the box, put a clamp to hold it tight to the top of the box with some padding to keep it from rattling against the top or the bracket, another 20” or whatever is needed that way. It’ll still fit. 



*You'll also see that the blue line (which is your current sealed box) is running over Xmax below 50 Hz... Probably the noise you're hearing (not good).*

I bet that’s part of the problem. I’ll go ahead and adjust it. Should I raise the filter a little higher just in the case the slope isn’t as steep? I didn’t see anything in the included manual that mentions what the slope of that filter is. 

* 

ported @ 36 Hz - HPF at 32 Hz.
Ported @ 30 Hz - HPF at 30 Hz
Sealed - HPF at 36 Hz*

Beautiful, thank you a ton for that! 

* 

ported @ 36 Hz - HPF at 32 Hz. 34.25 in port length
Ported @ 30 Hz - HPF at 30 Hz 50.60 in port length
Sealed - HPF at 36 Hz*

I went out and measured the box and the numbers posted on the description are correct. Just like to be exact with these things. It looks like I could fit the 4” tube for at least 6” into the box, then the rest would have to be external. But, even at 4”, I could run the tube up the side to the top, and just fit along the top without causing problems. I would have to decide if I want the sub rear facing into the CLD’d tailgate (I was told to do this so that the bass would go into the metal of the vehicle) or facing front before I finalized the tube location.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

It's hard to see, but my thumb is on the 4" mark.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I sat outside and tinkered with the sub amp. This is what I've found: 

When the sub is playing a long, low note, it sounds like it's buzzing when it's fully... excursed? I don't think that's a word. At the fullest excursion it makes a buzzing sound. I'm going to guess that's over excursion. Hardly in bass response in the cab of the vehicle, it just sounds like it's full, but no real bass at the low end. 

I'm going to check out a hardware store later today and look into options for making that port.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Well, cancel adding a port to this box. The cost of PVC, elbows, and a hole saw to cut it exceeds $90. I may as well put that towards the box I want.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> *Humm, Maybe an air leak around the sub or in the box.. could also be over excursion. Hope you're not bouncing the former off the backplate..*
> 
> Not sure what the “bouncing the former off the backplate” means, but it terms of leaks, I couldn’t find one when I checked it a few weeks ago. However, I did pick up some wood glue and some kind of caulk I found recommended on this site (I’m not at home so I can’t check). Do you think glue + caulk would work for sealing the port? If not, I’ll look for some epoxy.


The former is the cylinder which the voice coil is wound around. The backplate is the bottom of the motor. 

I would recommend some 5 min epoxy or really good construction adhesive. I don't think wood glue and pvc is effective at adhering together, but I might be wrong.... Caulk is Ok but i'd rather see epoxy. 




MercuryFlint said:


> *Blue is sealed (.7 cu ft), Green is ported (.7 cu ft net @ 36 Hz).*
> 
> I’m not in *any* way asking you to do all of this again, but would the internal volume being .75 cu ft make a large difference in your recommendations? I may have made the calculations incorrectly, but from the box listing:
> 
> ...


You're forgetting the displacement of the subwoofer itself. I'm guessing that's around 0.05 to 0.1 cu ft. 0.7 is close enough. If you add the port, just don't stick it inside the box too far as that would subtract from the internal volume as well. 



MercuryFlint said:


> *I'm guessing with this much 4 inch pipe outside the box you'll be limited to some length. Feel free to use as many elbows as you need. Just make sure the port exit is free of obstruction.*
> 
> I think I could pull it off with a large length. I could run a tube straight across for 18”, a few inches out with two elbows to put the tube horizontal across the top of the box, put a clamp to hold it tight to the top of the box with some padding to keep it from rattling against the top or the bracket, another 20” or whatever is needed that way. It’ll still fit.


You can play around with the last length to see what tuning freq you like. 



MercuryFlint said:


> *You'll also see that the blue line (which is your current sealed box) is running over Xmax below 50 Hz... Probably the noise you're hearing (not good).*
> 
> I bet that’s part of the problem. I’ll go ahead and adjust it. Should I raise the filter a little higher just in the case the slope isn’t as steep? I didn’t see anything in the included manual that mentions what the slope of that filter is.


I looked it up. Its 12dB per octave (2nd order). The dial is probably not super accurate for which frequency you're setting it at. There's a method for hitting the right xover point but I'd just play around with it a bit yourself by ear. 




MercuryFlint said:


> I went out and measured the box and the numbers posted on the description are correct. Just like to be exact with these things. It looks like I could fit the 4” tube for at least 6” into the box, then the rest would have to be external. But, even at 4”, I could run the tube up the side to the top, and just fit along the top without causing problems. I would have to decide if I want the sub rear facing into the CLD’d tailgate (I was told to do this so that the bass would go into the metal of the vehicle) or facing front before I finalized the tube location.


Avoid running the port inside the box that far. 2-3 inch would be the max IMO. Some extra bracing with scraps of wood and plenty of epoxy should secure it well enough. 

You'll have to try aiming the sub either direction to see what works best. You might even get different results with box near the left or right side. You'll also get different results windows up or down. 



MercuryFlint said:


> I sat outside and tinkered with the sub amp. This is what I've found:
> 
> When the sub is playing a long, low note, it sounds like it's buzzing when it's fully... excursed? I don't think that's a word. At the fullest excursion it makes a buzzing sound. I'm going to guess that's over excursion. Hardly in bass response in the cab of the vehicle, it just sounds like it's full, but no real bass at the low end.
> 
> I'm going to check out a hardware store later today and look into options for making that port.


Yep, pushing the sub past its limits for sure. The buzzing could be afew different things but it's all a sign that you're pushing too hard. 



MercuryFlint said:


> Well, cancel adding a port to this box. The cost of PVC, elbows, and a hole saw to cut it exceeds $90. I may as well put that towards the box I want.


Damn! You could check the price of 4 inch PVC Sewer/Drain pipe. A 2' straight is $7.11 each at my local menards. The PVC sewer/drain 90 deg elbows are about $4 each.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> Is the only purpose then to give you option to lower? I'm slightly confused by your first statement.
> 
> Ohhhh, okay, that makes sense (the graphs help). Since the numbers didn't seem to match the numbers in the upper part of the screen shot I take it you have to run the speakers T/S values through winisd in order to see this figure?


1) It's to give you multiple options for wiring/amplifiers. On a D2 sub you could run 1 mono amp at 1 or 4 ohms, 2 mono amps at 2 ohms, or 1 2-channel amp at 2 ohms per channel. In any case, the sub will produce the same frequency response.
2) You can get that graph through WinISD, but those are free air graphs (infinite baffle, no baffle) so you would need to make the box size really, really large to approximate those graphs. Those graphs are usually produced with a Klippel measurement system ($$$) or a DATS unit ($100-200).


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

*The former is the cylinder which the voice coil is wound around. The backplate is the bottom of the motor.*

So the cylinder could bounce off the backplate? Like if the power output is too high?*

I would recommend some 5 min epoxy or really good construction adhesive. I don't think wood glue and pvc is effective at adhering together, but I might be wrong.... Caulk is Ok but i'd rather see epoxy.*

Epoxy it is. I’m sure I can track some down on Amazon. 



*You're forgetting the displacement of the subwoofer itself. I'm guessing that's around 0.05 to 0.1 cu ft. 0.7 is close enough. If you add the port, just don't stick it inside the box too far as that would subtract from the internal volume as well.*

Ohhhhhh, that makes sense. Hadn’t considered that at all, but it makes sense. 



*You can play around with the last length to see what tuning freq you like.*

So the tuning is actually optional for taste? At least within a few inches/Hz? 



*I looked it up. Its 12dB per octave (2nd order). The dial is probably not super accurate for which frequency you're setting it at. There's a method for hitting the right xover point but I'd just play around with it a bit yourself by ear.*

I have no idea how your Googling is so much better than mine, but I’m glad you can find this stuff. I tried everything from 30Hz or so to the max of 55Hz, didn’t seem to make a whole lot of difference in terms of the excursion. I just don’t think this sub is meant to handle what the amp is putting out. To be fair, the NVX amp on Dyno tests usually come back a good deal higher than rated, so I think the amp is pumping and the sub is a bit overrated and not liking it at all. 



*Avoid running the port inside the box that far. 2-3 inch would be the max IMO. Some extra bracing with scraps of wood and plenty of epoxy should secure it well enough.

You'll have to try aiming the sub either direction to see what works best. You might even get different results with box near the left or right side. You'll also get different results windows up or down.*

I’ll play with position/angle before I lock/epoxy it all down. Does it make a difference which way the port itself faces? Like putting an elbow on the end to make it face forward?

Taking the windows out makes a heck of a difference on everything, for sure, especially once I’m moving. 



*Yep, pushing the sub past its limits for sure. The buzzing could be afew different things but it's all a sign that you're pushing too hard.*

Makes sense. I double checked the screws to make sure it was tight, checked for air leakage, even put a little polyfill in the box to see if it made a difference on anything, and, so far, nothing. I think the sub itself just isn’t that great. Fingers crossed the port will make up for some of that, but at the moment I adjusted the gain, boost, and subsonic to stop that buzzing and it’s pretty much just fill. 



*Damn! You could check the price of 4 inch PVC Sewer/Drain pipe. A 2' straight is $7.11 each at my local menards. The PVC sewer/drain 90 deg elbows are about $4 each.*

No kidding?? At Lowe’s it was a 10’ section for $20, elbows for $10. Shame the hole saw was $30, but I could think of some way to cut that hole out with the tools I have, I’m just sure it wouldn’t be as clean. And I’m not really sure how to go about it with my limited selection of tools, other than maybe making a hold large enough to use my small hacksaw. A bunch of my tools were, in a sense, stolen, so I’ve been piecing things back together. I’ll have to check the Menard’s near me, maybe I can make something work.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

ckirocz28 said:


> 1) It's to give you multiple options for wiring/amplifiers. On a D2 sub you could run 1 mono amp at 1 or 4 ohms, 2 mono amps at 2 ohms, or 1 2-channel amp at 2 ohms per channel. In any case, the sub will produce the same frequency response.
> 2) You can get that graph through WinISD, but those are free air graphs (infinite baffle, no baffle) so you would need to make the box size really, really large to approximate those graphs. Those graphs are usually produced with a Klippel measurement system ($$$) or a DATS unit ($100-200).


1. Ohhhhh, I get what you're saying now. Yeah, I had considered going with two subs and wiring it to 2 ohms, with my earlier mindset of "1 ohm is bad for sound quality", but obviously now I'm not considering it that way. I'll go with 4 ohm subs, so when I have one I can wire it down to 2 ohms, then when I get the second go full tilt with 1 ohm. 

2. Never heard of those, so I'll research. Trying to learn this all at a higher level, so thank you.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Lithium, another question: you said the buzzing could be a few possibilities, mind if I ask what those are? The end result being, of course, to lower the output and get a new sub, but I'm rather curious, as a learning exercise, if I could figure it out. If I hadn't switched my previous 5.25s out for another pair I'd be pulling those apart to see what went wrong. I want to understand these things.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> 1. Ohhhhh, I get what you're saying now. Yeah, I had considered going with two subs and wiring it to 2 ohms, with my earlier mindset of "1 ohm is bad for sound quality", but obviously now I'm not considering it that way. I'll go with 4 ohm subs, so when I have one I can wire it down to 2 ohms, then when I get the second go full tilt with 1 ohm.
> 
> 2. Never heard of those, so I'll research. Trying to learn this all at a higher level, so thank you.


2) No need to research those unless you have a need to measure T/S parameters for speakers, Klippel is what almost all speaker manufacturers use to test practically every parameter of a speaker, DATS is a small box connected by usb to a pc with software that measures T/S specs in a much cheaper and portable way but not as accurate and comprehensive as a Klippel setup. @ErinH has a Klippel.





Dayton Audio - DATS V3 Computer Based Audio Component Test System


DATS V3 Computer Based Audio Component Test System




www.daytonaudio.com


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> Well, cancel adding a port to this box. The cost of PVC, elbows, and a hole saw to cut it exceeds $90. I may as well put that towards the box I want.


Or put the $90 towards a PR?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

ckirocz28 said:


> 2) No need to research those unless you have a need to measure T/S parameters for speakers, Klippel is what almost all speaker manufacturers use to test practically every parameter of a speaker, DATS is a small box connected by usb to a pc with software that measures T/S specs in a much cheaper and portable way but not as accurate and comprehensive as a Klippel setup. @ErinH has a Klippel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh that's really cool. Maybe one of those down-the-line purchases, after equipment, RTA, mic, etc.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Holmz said:


> Or put the $90 towards a PR?


Would you clarify what a PR is? Through Google I'm only finding Mephis Power Reference


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> *The former is the cylinder which the voice coil is wound around. The backplate is the bottom of the motor.*
> 
> So the cylinder could bounce off the backplate? Like if the power output is too high?


Yep, Though its more of rattle than a buzz type of sound. I'm guessing you're pushing the suspension too hard or the noise is related to nonlinear distortion caused by the coil traveling past Xmax. 




MercuryFlint said:


> *You can play around with the last length to see what tuning freq you like.*
> 
> So the tuning is actually optional for taste? At least within a few inches/Hz?


I gave you a range between 30 and 36 Hz tuning frequencies. The longer port being the lower tuning freq while the shorter is higher. You can try it out at different frequencies to change the response. 



MercuryFlint said:


> *Avoid running the port inside the box that far. 2-3 inch would be the max IMO. Some extra bracing with scraps of wood and plenty of epoxy should secure it well enough.
> 
> You'll have to try aiming the sub either direction to see what works best. You might even get different results with box near the left or right side. You'll also get different results windows up or down.*
> 
> ...


It might, If you have an elbow on the end you can use that to try aiming different directions. The port is playing the lower frequencies so I'd guess aiming won't matter as much. The directivity should be almost omnidirectional. 



MercuryFlint said:


> Lithium, another question: you said the buzzing could be a few possibilities, mind if I ask what those are? The end result being, of course, to lower the output and get a new sub, but I'm rather curious, as a learning exercise, if I could figure it out. If I hadn't switched my previous 5.25s out for another pair I'd be pulling those apart to see what went wrong. I want to understand these things.


Could be suspension noise from being pushed too hard. Maybe the box is flexing if its ****ty. Maybe air leak. Tinsel lead slap depending how those are installed. 



MercuryFlint said:


> Would you clarify what a PR is? Through Google I'm only finding Mephis Power Reference


Passive radiators. They serve the same function as a port. Since you're trying an external port than I wouldn't bother with using a PR.


----------



## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

*Yep, Though its more of rattle than a buzz type of sound. I'm guessing you're pushing the suspension too hard or the noise is related to nonlinear distortion caused by the coil traveling past Xmax.*

Ahhh, no, definitely more of a buzzing sound, but kind of a soft buzzing. It’s so hard to describe audio through text. 



*I gave you a range between 30 and 36 Hz tuning frequencies. The longer port being the lower tuning freq while the shorter is higher. You can try it out at different frequencies to change the response.*

_slaps forehead_ Sorry, I was responding well past the hours of clear thinking. 



*It might, If you have an elbow on the end you can use that to try aiming different directions. The port is playing the lower frequencies so I'd guess aiming won't matter as much. The directivity should be almost omnidirectional.*

So the port plays the lower range of what the sub is generating? Interesting. Well, if I can make it happen cheap enough I’ll give it a try. I’ll swing by Menards on Thursday and see what they have to offer price-wise. 



*Could be suspension noise from being pushed too hard. Maybe the box is flexing if its ****ty. Maybe air leak. Tinsel lead slap depending how those are installed.*

I don’t think the box is flexing too much, but I’ve considered adding some reinforcement. I just need to get a few small pieces of wood I can try to fit in. 



*Passive radiators. They serve the same function as a port. Since you're trying an external port than I wouldn't bother with using a PR.*

Oh, now I’m tracking. 



I managed to get the settings on the sub amp adjusted to stop the buzzing. Neutered an already ball-less sub response. But at least it isn’t buzzing on every bass hit. 

I think I've run the gamut of what I can fix/improve without additional spending. I thought there may be a problem with my 4-channel amp since it blew a speaker that should have been able to handle it. It feels like I've lost midbass. I tried to polyfill behind my 5.25s and it didn't seem to help anything, so I took it back out. For the moment I'm going to Tesa-tape wiring that I've run and look into how to mount my amps. Everything is temporary now, not bolted down, just held in place through zip ties and various things. Need to figure out how to make the amp under my seat stand up off the floor a bit so that water coming in won't hit it (it's an old Jeep, some things leak). I would also like to figure out how to make the amps as theft resistant as possible.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> I managed to get the settings on the sub amp adjusted to stop the buzzing. Neutered an already ball-less sub response. But at least it isn’t buzzing on every bass hit.


These subs in a sealed enclosures roll off pretty hard. I'm guessing the Jeep isn't helping you much here with cabin gain. Ported will help for sure.



MercuryFlint said:


> I think I've run the gamut of what I can fix/improve without additional spending. I thought there may be a problem with my 4-channel amp since it blew a speaker that should have been able to handle it. It feels like I've lost midbass. I tried to polyfill behind my 5.25s and it didn't seem to help anything, so I took it back out. For the moment I'm going to Tesa-tape wiring that I've run and look into how to mount my amps. Everything is temporary now, not bolted down, just held in place through zip ties and various things. Need to figure out how to make the amp under my seat stand up off the floor a bit so that water coming in won't hit it (it's an old Jeep, some things leak). I would also like to figure out how to make the amps as theft resistant as possible.


Nah, I think the amp is fine. If the new speaker is a different model, it's probably that the speakers put out less midbass. You could double check polarity, maybe you wired one backwards. 

I would mount the amps to HDPE - aka cutting boards. You can get 1/2 or 3/4 inch fairly cheap off amazon. You could rivet nut and bolt them to the floor maybe.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> Would you clarify what a PR is? Through Google I'm only finding Mephis Power Reference


“Passive Radiator” == (PR)


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> These subs in a sealed enclosures roll off pretty hard. I'm guessing the Jeep isn't helping you much here with cabin gain. Ported will help for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doubt there's much gain from a cabin that's 2/3rds sailcloth and clear plastic. Nothing much holding those soundwaves in 🤣. 

I was pretty careful with the wiring, I even used different size terminal... oh, whatever those little connectors are called that fit onto the leads for the speakers. I used the larger one for positive and the smaller one for negative just to be sure I didn't mix them up when speaker swapping. Though I could have wired it backwards at the amp, so I'll check later. 

I was just offered a set of JBL GT7-5C components new for $40. Wondering if that would be a decent placeholder until I can buy something better. 92dB sensitivity. Or I could just exercise some patience and wait to get the Daytons. 

Now that's an interesting idea. Mount the amp to that. I've been trying to think over a way to mount a lock of some kind. You know the locks they use for storage sheds, where there's a metal flap with a hinge that goes over an eyelet, and you pass a padlock through the eyelet? It keeps the mounting screws covered so it can't just be unscrewed to bypass the lock. If I could find some way to lock it down that way. Or maybe one of those laptop lock cables that 3Ms a piece to the side.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

The JBL's might be decent. Maybe run the full set off the passive crossovers on Channel 1 and 2 of the amp. Then run channel 3 and 4 on some midbass in your 6.5 inch speaker pods (using them as midbass 80-300Hz or so). You can use whatever you have on hand or wait until you have budget to buy some 6.5 inch midbass drivers.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> The JBL's might be decent. Maybe run the full set off the passive crossovers on Channel 1 and 2 of the amp. Then run channel 3 and 4 on some midbass in your 6.5 inch speaker pods (using them as midbass 80-300Hz or so). You can use whatever you have on hand or wait until you have budget to buy some 6.5 inch midbass drivers.


Decided not to. I'm going to invest in the speaker pods and get one of the top NVX 10" subs with a spacer ring so I can use my current sealed box for it. Then I'll get the dual downward box, then another sub, then better woofers. Then sound deadening, then a TwK-88, then more sound deadening. I imagine I'm getting a lot of vibration from those doors since they're pure sheet metal and totally hollow inside (no windows or moving parts other than the lock). I have some mechanical stuff to get fixed before the first round of sound deadening (new lower control arms, new exhaust) then after the second round of sound treatment get a new head for the engine and potentially a rebuild. Lots of money going into this Jeep, and since money is low this will be a long-term project. But I can get a few toys to start.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

My tweeters sound pretty harsh, with some songs that have a lot in the higher registers actually making me wince when I play them. I have them turned down something silly, like -9 dB, so I'm wondering if there are warmer/less harsh tweeters I can get. These are silk dome, not metal, so I'm not sure why they seem so bright to me. My EQ is limited as it hits all channels, and when I drop the 5k+ range it starts to sound muddy.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

So I'm having an issue with a buzzing around 127Hz. It's behind the right mid woofer. I pulled the speaker, and if I still run the tone the buzzing is still present, so it's nothing in the speaker hitting anything. I can't figure it out. I've reached my hand in every which way and tried to pin wires, pin panels, nada. There's one place, where the bottom of the speaker plate mounts to the dash, where if I press it the buzz drops substantially, but I can't for the life of me figure out why. I don't see the cause-and-effect relationship. 

I have some packing foam that my amps came in, tried putting that in various strategic places, but could not get that buzz to stop. I'm really scratching my head on this one.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Pods would likely solve the buzzing. Might be anywhere up in the dash....

you have 15 bands of eq so try dropping around the 5k to 10k area a bit. That would sibilance or the sharp S sound.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

lithium said:


> Pods would likely solve the buzzing. Might be anywhere up in the dash....
> 
> you have 15 bands of eq so try dropping around the 5k to 10k area a bit. That would sibilance or the sharp S sound.


127 Hz seems low to me for as SSS.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Pods would likely solve the buzzing. Might be anywhere up in the dash....
> 
> you have 15 bands of eq so try dropping around the 5k to 10k area a bit. That would sibilance or the sharp S sound.


Yeah, I think you're right. I'd rather get the sub first, but I'm really starting to want those pods. 

I'll play with it more, but when I tried playing with the EQ I ended up making the music sort of "hollow" sounding.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Holmz said:


> 127 Hz seems low to me for as SSS.


Not sure what an SSS is, but I know the buzzing is awful at that level. Up to 150Hz and it's fine, nothing happening, but 127Hz just makes the whole dash sound like a drone propeller is smashing around inside.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> Not sure what an SSS is, but I know the buzzing is awful at that level. Up to 150Hz and it's fine, nothing happening, but 127Hz just makes the whole dash sound like a drone propeller is smashing around inside.


read it:


lithium said:


> Pods would likely solve the buzzing. Might be anywhere up in the dash....
> 
> you have 15 bands of eq so try dropping around the 5k to 10k area a bit. That would sibilance or the sharp S sound.


Sorry but I assumed that the SSS would be link in the context… ^sibilance or the sharp S sound.^


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Holmz said:


> read it:
> 
> 
> Sorry but I assumed that the SSS would be link in the context… ^sibilance or the sharp S sound.^


That was my assumption, but I prefer to clarify unless it's painfully obvious. There are lots of abbreviations and acronyms in this world that I'm unfamiliar with. 

It looks like I can get my hands on a TwK-88 in a few days. Im sure it's functionality is limited when working with the wrong drivers and sub, but they go out of stock quickly and I can get it cheap and in installment payments, so I'm going up jump on it.

Would it be worth hooking up and doing any configuration at this point, or just hold off until I improve the rest of the equipment?


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

You should probably follow the plan laid out a few post back. Use your headunit for active 2way + sub for now.


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

MercuryFlint said:


> That was my assumption, but I prefer to clarify unless it's painfully obvious. There are lots of abbreviations and acronyms in this world that I'm unfamiliar with.
> 
> It looks like I can get my hands on a TwK-88 in a few days. Im sure it's functionality is limited when working with the wrong drivers and sub, but they go out of stock quickly and I can get it cheap and in installment payments, so I'm going up jump on it.
> 
> Would it be worth hooking up and doing any configuration at this point, or just hold off until I improve the rest of the equipment?


A lot of recording have issues with sibilance, and some amplifier, and some speakers.
So I would probably start with a recording which is known to be free of sibilance, and go from there.

I ‘believe‘ that some tweeter mighthave something like breakup modes that would exhibit themselves as sibilance, but I am not totally sure.

Then amps and DSPs, I would think, would contribute less to sibilance??

I guess my answer is “Hold off” and get a plan.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Okay, fair enough. I'll go back to the plan laid out and progress from there. I'm doing some side work to fund this, so I might be progressing fairly quickly. Still no word on when the subs will clear customs, so I'll likely work on getting the drivers and speaker pods next. At the moment it sounds like my music is being played through a cheap boombox, so I'm looking forward to making a few upgrades soon.

I'm perfectly happy getting those Dayton drivers, but I'm curious, as I do get half off most products through Sonic Electronix, would any of these be better? I'm looking at things that would be comparable in price with a sensitivity over 90 dB. I would get tweeters in addition to the woofers. If none have woofers that are comparable I'll just get the Daytons and consider new tweeters later. 










Infinity Reference 5030cx 65W RMS 5.25" Component Speaker System


Infinity Reference 5030cx REF5030CX • 195W Max 65W RMS 5.25" Reference Series 2-Way Component Car Speakers • 195 Watts Max Each 65 Watts RMS Each • Edge-DRiven Textile Tweeter • Plus One Polypropylene Oversized Midwoofer Cone • 3 ohms Impedance • Sensitivity: 93dB • Mounting Depth: 1-15/16"




www.sonicelectronix.com





Product Details:
RMS: 130 watts per set / 65 watts each side
Plus One polypropylene oversized midwoofer cone
Edge-driven textile tweeter
3 ohms impedance - 
Frequency Response: 67 - 21000 Hz
Sensitivity: 93dB











JBL Stadium 52CF 190W RMS 5-1/4" 2-way Component Speaker System


JBL Stadium 52CF • 480W Peak 190W RMS 5-1/4" Stadium Series 2-way 3-Ohm Component Speaker System • 240 watts Max Each 80 watts RMS Each • Aluminum Dome Tweeters • Glass Fiber cone material • Impedance: 3 ohms • Sensitivity: 93 dB • Mounting Depth: 0.275"




www.sonicelectronix.com





RMS: 80 watts per set / 40 watts each side
Plus One+ glass-fiber woofer cone
Hi-roll rubber surround
Edge-driven aluminum dome tweeter
UniPivot and Angled Tweeter
3 ohms impedance
Frequency Response: 55-40,000 Hz
Sensitivity: 93dB












Hertz DSK 130.3 60W RMS 5.25” Dieci Series Component Speakers


Hertz DSK130.3 • 120W Peak 60W RMS 5.25” Dieci Series Component Speakers • 60 Watts Max Each 30 Watts RMS Each • Water-repellent pressed paper cone material • PEI Tweeter Dome • 4 Ohms Impedance • Sensitivity: 93 dB




www.sonicelectronix.com





RMS: 60 watts per set / 30 watts each side
Water-repellent pressed paper cone material
PEI Tweeter Dome
Neodymium Tweeter magnet
High density flux Ferrite Woofer magnet
CEA-2031 compliant speakers
4 ohms impedance
Frequency Response: 60-23,000 Hz
Sensitivity: 93 dB












Hertz CK 130 | Cento Series 5.25" Component Speaker system


Hertz CK 130 • 5.25" Cento Series 2-Way Component Speaker system • 105 Watts Max Each 35 Watts RMS Each •Semi Pressed Paper-Mica cone material • Tetolon Tweeter dome • 4 Ohms Impedance • Sensitivity: 92.5 dB • Mounting Depth: 2"




www.sonicelectronix.com





RMS: 70 watts per set / 35 watts each side
Semi Pressed Paper-Mica cone material
Tweeter dome: Tetolon®
Neodymium Tweeter magnet
CEA-2031 compliant speakers
Top-mount Depth: 2"
4 ohms impedance
Frequency Response: 65-22,500 Hz
Sensitivity: 92.5 dB


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Nothing from those specs help me make recommendation... I wouldn't touch drivers that do not have published freq response plots at the least.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Nothing from those specs help me make recommendation... I wouldn't touch drivers that do not have published freq response plots at the least.


Fair enough. I'll just stick with the Dayton recommendation. Thanks for looking!


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Speaker pods ordered. TwK-88 coming in next week. I know I won't get as much out of it at the moment, but I should get the subs and box within the next few weeks. In about a month and a half I'll have all the pieces to put this together. Stay tuned!


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

So, the speaker pods arrived and, oh man, what a difference. Midbass is decently improved, the fullness of the music is much better, and it's louder. 

My only new issue: it sounds a lot muddier than it did before, so now I'm trying to figure out how to fix that. I've tinkered with the crossover and EQ, and it's improved a bit, but I wonder if it's just the speakers I'm using. 

Another question: these pods came with grommets and recommend using glue around the grommet to seal any air flow. However, it's been recommended to me that I leave a hole so that air can move. So, what's your recommendation? Seal them up, or give them air to breathe?


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

The TS parameters of the driver your using might be causing a bump in the lower midbass due the the enclosure being too small for the driver. You can address it with EQ and or hpf. Or by using an aperiodic vent. I'd start with option one for now. 

I guess it's also possible that the enclosure is resonating. Do you feel it flexing why playing music?


I,d seal these up for now. You can use gasket material or duct seal.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Hey!

I don't feel it flexing at all, the material is pretty stiff. I'll play with the filters, but next week I should be getting that DSP so it'll give me a lot more control over what's going into those drivers, maybe get them to play nice until I have a chance to replace them.

They came with little gaskets that you can push the wire through. I'll go ahead and do that and then look into something to seal them up. I do have some caulk that I purchased to reinforce the scenes of my subwoofer enclosure, I wonder if that would work.

I can say, even though it's a bit muddier than before, there's a lot more fill in the music. I'm excited to see things progressing. Won't be long before I can get the sub enclosure and some decent 10s in it.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

caulk is fine. I'd seal the wire with the speaker uninstalled just in case the off gassing does something it shouldn't. I use duct seal for sealing stuff like this that I plan to get back into later.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Okay, ready to replace these drivers. I'm going nuts trying to get them to sound good. 

For the Dayton RS 150P-4A 6" to fit what do I need to measure on these pods? I swear you already told me but I can't find it anywhere in the thread. 

It looks like I can get a pair of these shipped for $110, and for $10 more get them tomorrow.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Mounting cutout diameter of the driver and the pods. Outside diameter of the driver and pods. Mounting depth.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Mounting cutout diameter of the driver and the pods. Outside diameter of the driver and pods. Mounting depth.


Roger. I'll try to do that this evening.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

I think the rs150 might be slightly larger than a standard 5.25 but it might work. Maybe a little trimming to get there


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> I think the rs150 might be slightly larger than a standard 5.25 but it might work. Maybe a little trimming to get there


What would be trimmed, exactly? I'll have to see if it's a tool I have or something I'll need to pick up.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

You'll see when you measure them. I think the cutout diameter for the Dayton driver is about 4.75 inch and the typical 5.25 car audio driver has a cutout of 4.5inches. So depending on how the pods are built you might need to trim a little. You can get something like a cheap coping saw to make the cut but you might not have to.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I'm tracking now. I think the pods have that space available, I know the hole was pretty wide, but I'll verify. 

Well, on to a bonus. The TwK-88 came into stock early and is in my hands. The sub I was waiting on and didn't expect for a while also came in, will be in my hands shortly. I went ahead and picked up the RCA cables and power wire for the TwK, got a 3/4 spacer ring for the sub. Don't have the fancy dual box yet (probably not for at least a month or two) but I'm going to try to get that sub to fit in the small box I have. I'm going to try to get this all installed tomorrow. Super, super excited for the TwK, even though it's use will be somewhat limited by my lack of a calibrated mic for an RTA.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

MercuryFlint said:


> I'm tracking now. I think the pods have that space available, I know the hole was pretty wide, but I'll verify.
> 
> Well, on to a bonus. The TwK-88 came into stock early and is in my hands. The sub I was waiting on and didn't expect for a while also came in, will be in my hands shortly. I went ahead and picked up the RCA cables and power wire for the TwK, got a 3/4 spacer ring for the sub. Don't have the fancy dual box yet (probably not for at least a month or two) but I'm going to try to get that sub to fit in the small box I have. I'm going to try to get this all installed tomorrow. Super, super excited for the TwK, even though it's use will be somewhat limited by my lack of a calibrated mic for an RTA.


The ring is glued to the box, going to drill and mount the sub today and install both it and the DSP this afternoon. Trying to figure out this TUN software so I can make it at least do something. I interested in using the LPF and EQ on the tweeters to remove some of the brightness, then a HPF on the sub instead of that subsonic knob. 

Lithium, what was the epoxy you were recommended for sealing the box? I used Gorilla Glue wood glue to mount it initially, but I want to go along the border of the ring with something stronger to prevent air leaks.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Doesn't really matter what you use around the corners for leaks. I think wood glue works fine but construction adheasive or silicon works ok as well. I just lay a bead and then run my finger over it.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I have that caulk, I'll try that soon, thank you!

I hooked the DSP and the sub with the spacer ring and everything works! I haven't really opened up on the sub yet, going to let it break in a bit, but already it sounds far better than the previous two. Much larger motor, magnet, well, everything. 

The DSP is wild. I turned off the signal processing on my head unit and am running it all through the TwK. So far, sounds better. I was able to add a low pass to the tweeters and it did take out some of the brightness. I can tell by turning individual channels on and off that those woofers sound awful. I'm going to get those replaced, Anu (replied earlier in this thread) is selling me a UMIK-1 so I can actually RTA this rig.

I think the mic and the woofers will be my last purchases for a while. I think I'll invest my next free money on sound treatment, then get the big box and the second sub. The one sub is running at 2 ohms and 750 W, so I'm stoked to hear how it sounds wide open.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

I think the mic will really help you out quite a bit.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

From everything I've read I think you're right. I'll post up some data as soon as I get it. I just need to find a good free RTA or one with a reasonable price. Downloaded TrueRTA, don't know if the free is good enough or if I should look into a paid option. 

Do you know where I can find good pink noise files in different frequencies? I have a good tone generator, but no luck with the pink noise. The links on the RTA threads here all seem broken.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Just use rew like everyone else... it has a built in generator. You can play pink noise from the app or export the files to .wav and play them from another device.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Just use rew like everyone else... it has a built in generator. You can play pink noise from the app or export the files to .wav and play them from another device.


Oh, perfect, thank you. Downloading that now. My mic arrives Wednesday! Super stoked, can't wait to get it in and start playing. 

I tinkered with everything a bit (how better to spend a lunch break?) and I managed to get the singer from Heart Magic Man darn near centered. It's still far from perfect, but it all sounds rich and smooth. Absolutely loving this. And the control knob on it works for both total volume and sub control, and since the volume buttons on my HU are hard to hit, especially when driving, it's a hell of a bonus feature.


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## Anu2g (Nov 4, 2020)

MercuryFlint said:


> I have that caulk, I'll try that soon, thank you!
> 
> I hooked the DSP and the sub with the spacer ring and everything works! I haven't really opened up on the sub yet, going to let it break in a bit, but already it sounds far better than the previous two. Much larger motor, magnet, well, everything.
> 
> ...


Did you mean to say that you put a High-Pass (HP) on the tweeters? I wouldn't think you'd want a LP on the tweeters. If the very high-end of the tweeters is too bright, try a shelf filter in that Tun software.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Anu2g said:


> Did you mean to say that you put a High-Pass (HP) on the tweeters? I wouldn't think you'd want a LP on the tweeters. If the very high-end of the tweeters is too bright, try a shelf filter in that Tun software.


It was a low pass, 14.5kHz or close to that. Seemed like it helped a bit. I'll Google shelf filter and see how I can do that, I'm willing to try anything.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

You know, I think I did something similar. I know the cymbals crash is 8 - 10kHz, so I lowered it there with the PEQ, which kind of shelved it.


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## Anu2g (Nov 4, 2020)

Cool. Those all three (crossover, peak filter, shelf filter) have similar effects, if your goal is to just drop the very top-end of a specific driver. Honestly, just wait for the mic to come in and then measure it!


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Anu2g said:


> Cool. Those all three (crossover, peak filter, shelf filter) have similar effects, if your goal is to just drop the very top-end of a specific driver. Honestly, just wait for the mic to come in and then measure it!


I really can't describe how excited I am to get that in. I thank you again for that. I'm tickled that when I loaded up REW the first thing it said was "We recommend the UMIK-1."


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## Anu2g (Nov 4, 2020)

MercuryFlint said:


> I really can't describe how excited I am to get that in. I thank you again for that. I'm tickled that when I loaded up REW the first thing it said was "We recommend the UMIK-1."


My pleasure. So many people have gone out of their way to help me on this forum. I ended up with an extra mic because I was having tuning issues, and thought maybe my UMIK-1 wasn't working correctly...so then I bought a UMIK-2...and compared the two and it turned out nothing was wrong with my UMIK-1. Then the UMIK-1 was going unused since I had the UMIK-2.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

When you get REW up and running find some tutorials for how to load in the cal file for the microphone. For RTA measurements you will want to play pink periodic noise (full range) at a moderate volume level. Next go the the RTA window, click the option menu (gear) at the top right and set the mode to RTA (1/48 octave is what I use and then add smoothing later), FFT length is fine at whatever the default is (this setting doesn't apply to RTA iirc), Averages set to Forever (you will manually toggle the record button for measurements, Window rectangular, overlap %50.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

When you get to using EQ in REW you will want to pick a house curve and load that into REW and tune from there. Search around for a tutorial on that.

I just wanted to cover the settings for the RTA as those are pretty important to get right.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Anu2g said:


> My pleasure. So many people have gone out of their way to help me on this forum. I ended up with an extra mic because I was having tuning issues, and thought maybe my UMIK-1 wasn't working correctly...so then I bought a UMIK-2...and compared the two and it turned out nothing was wrong with my UMIK-1. Then the UMIK-1 was going unused since I had the UMIK-2.


Greatly appreciate it. I am enjoying how much help I've received on her. Saved me a lot of missteps and hitting my head against a wall. I don't mind to Google, but sometimes it's just nice to get pointed in the right direction with it.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> When you get REW up and running find some tutorials for how to load in the cal file for the microphone. For RTA measurements you will want to play pink periodic noise (full range) at a moderate volume level. Next go the the RTA window, click the option menu (gear) at the top right and set the mode to RTA (1/48 octave is what I use and then add smoothing later), FFT length is fine at whatever the default is (this setting doesn't apply to RTA iirc), Averages set to Forever (you will manually toggle the record button for measurements, Window rectangular, overlap %50.


I'm going to tinker with those settings now, see if I can get it configured (minus the mic) before I get started tomorrow. Maybe I'll figure out what some of that even means 🤣.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> When you get to using EQ in REW you will want to pick a house curve and load that into REW and tune from there. Search around for a tutorial on that.
> 
> I just wanted to cover the settings for the RTA as those are pretty important to get right.


I thank you for that. Whatever will help me get started without a lot of wasted time. Don't mind to search this stuff out, but sometimes that's hard when you're just getting started on something this intense.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I know I'm just spam posting in my thread, but I'm curious: can anyone recommend any audio tracks that have good center staging for vocals? Or good staging in general. I'd like to have something to reference after I make these adjustments to see if my tuning is more or less successful.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

There are two sets I use to check stage. One is a snare drum at set points left to right, the other is a speaking track. Other than that I just make sure the left and right side have similar responses, time alignment is setup correctly, and summed response matches the target as best as possible w/o any big phase issues. 






Test And Tune - Google Drive







drive.google.com


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Test Tones & Test & Setup Track Repository -...


Test Tones & Test & Setup Track Repository - Please Contribute Tracks & Techniques So I wanted to start a Repository of sorts for the most common Test Tracks that we all use to Setup, Measure, and Tune our car audio systems, both By Ear, and with a Measurement Microphone & Software/Apps...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

https://dam.focal.com/pinaccess/pinaccess.do?pinCode=7HJUT


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> https://dam.focal.com/pinaccess/pinaccess.do?pinCode=7HJUT


Oh, man, I asked and you delivered. That's a heck of a lot of tracks. 

I'm not sure this mic is going to make it in today, but I'll still tinker with these tracks and see what I can do by ear. I'll compare that to what I do with the RTA and see how they match up.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Looking over vehicle tuning information I'm starting to wonder about getting some speaker pods for my dash for those 3.5" rounds (or maybe some kind of driver on partsexpress). Not that I'm really wanting to spend any money at the moment, but here soon enough, in order to get better directionality as the 5.25s face my thighs instead of aiming anywhere in the location of my head.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Well you could use those for a midrange instead of the dash pods. You need to measure response from the pods you already have to see if they effect the performance negativity enough to justify replacing them. If you see it hear some issues due to location then moving them might be justified. But remember plenty of folks setup decent 2 way front stages with a woofer in the door aimed across the car... So I'd just stick to the plan for now


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Well you could use those for a midrange instead of the dash pods. You need to measure response from the pods you already have to see if they effect the performance negativity enough to justify replacing them. If you see it hear some issues due to location then moving them might be justified. But remember plenty of folks setup decent 2 way front stages with a woofer in the door aimed across the car... So I'd just stick to the plan for now


I like that plan better. I'd rather just buy better 5.25s for now. Only thing is, it looks like the inventory is down to one of the RS150s. If it stops raining tonight I'll measure these pods and see what will fit. I need to remove the passive crossovers I had attached to them anyways.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

They have the truncated frame in stock if you want to try that out. Its the aluminium cone but its still a great driver. There are some other options as well. Home


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> They have the truncated frame in stock if you want to try that out. Its the aluminium cone but its still a great driver. There are some other options as well. Home


I don't see one of those available in a 4-ohm, just the 8-ohm. Would I lose much dropping the RMS like that? I'm at 75W at 4-ohm. 









Home


Dayton Audio DC130B-4 5-1/4" Classic Woofer SpeakerOne of the main design goals at Dayton Audio is to create loudspeakers that can achieve high levels of performance at reasonable prices. The Dayton Audio DC130B-4 5-1/4" woofer is a great example of this approach. It features a non-pressed...




www.parts-express.com





How about this one? Down to 50 hz handling (but obviously crossing at 100 hz or 125 hz), 92 dB sensitivity. I'm trying to learn the important factors to look for.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Actually, the 8 ohm model is fine, you'll be fine for output if you do the math. I'd probably grab the paper cones unless you're getting them wet, in which case get the aluminum cone. 








Home


Dayton Audio RS150P-8A 6" Reference Paper Woofer 8 OhmNow with improved frequency response – we tweaked the design and the result is a much a smoother high frequency roll-off allowing for extended bandwidth and easier crossover integration.The performance of the original groundbreaking Reference...




www.parts-express.com





you'll need another amp for a 3 way + sub setup in the future anyways so you can add more power than if needed. 

Another option if the dimensions do not work out on the dayton 6". This looks like a nominial 5.25 cutout IIRC.








Zaph Audio ZA14W08 5" Aluminum Cone Mid/Woofer


Next batch of ZA14 woofers due to arrive in late-Jan/Feb, 2023. Email us ([email protected]) if you would like to be notified when they are back in stock.Zaph Audio ZA14W08 5" Aluminum Cone Woofer Visit the ZA5 Family of Speaker Kits using this driver. Strategically placed Faraday rings in the...




www.madisoundspeakerstore.com


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Quick question: do the stats for the item on the far right look decent, or not worth it?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Microphone arrived, works just fine as far as I can tell. I'm reading through guides on using REW on DIYMA, going to start playing with it on my lunch. The method in the guide is pretty intense, using REW to determine crossover points was something I didn't think of. I'm curious whether I could just get started using some sine sweeps to see if I can EQ anything, or if it would be a waste of time without getting these crossover points figured out first.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Those aren't parameters I look at unless I'm modeling the enclosure for a sub or mid woofer..


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Follow audiofrogs tuning guide. I think that would be the best place to start. You will need to run the sub to around 80hz and mid around 100 since it's a 5 incher. 

I'd start by measuring individual drivers, then one side at a time, and then the total response. 

Andy w uses a sweep at single mic location and then applies 1/3 octave smoothing. I haven't compare it to moving microphone with pink noise measurements but that's what I prefer currently.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Xovers are based on the limitations of the driver. So typical the lowest xover for a tweeter is 2x fs. For a mid the high end needs to comedown before any cone break and hpf before it runs out of xmax.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Initial reading: pink noise, correlated.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)




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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Previous was at my left ear, this one is at my right ear.


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## nbaever3 (Oct 8, 2021)

You're creating a big gap in your response because it sounds better to your ear, but the problem is the 5db greater sensitivity of your tweeters. Turn the tweeters down 4~6 db and you won't need that gap.The pressure is just forcing the broken coil leads back together, so as soon as the sub really gets moving they separate again 
spice money b2b myfiosgateway login


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

nbaever3 said:


> You're creating a big gap in your response because it sounds better to your ear, but the problem is the 5db greater sensitivity of your tweeters. Turn the tweeters down 4~6 db and you won't need that gap.The pressure is just forcing the broken coil leads back together, so as soon as the sub really gets moving they separate again


Are you referring to my EQ'ing at the high range? Yeah, I can remove that and just lower the tweeters' output. 

As far as the sub, I've replaced the broken one. This one is fully functional. I never realized how much I could miss bass.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Top right if the display there is a cog wheel. Click that and find the apply smoothing option. Punch in 1/3 octave and click apply.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I changed the setting but I don't see an apply button. It didn't change anything on the current graph, so was that just for future measurements?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)




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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Nevermind. When I cleared the donation bar it opened up more options.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I'm going to guess the peak in the 40 to 60 range is from using my bass knob. The fall off after 10kHz is likely the crossover and EQ points I have there. I'll just try turning down the tweeters instead of EQ'ing and Xovering them down. Does 200 to 1k need to be toned down with EQ to make them match the 1k+ range? I've noticed a distinctly unpleasant note in the midbass lately.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

This is my current setup in TuN. I reset the PEQ, and also lowered the tweeter output by 6 dB. Turned off the LPF on the tweeters. The tweeters have an Fs of 1.5kHz, so those could probably be brought down to between 2.25kHz and 3kHz, if what I'm reading is correct.


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## Jheitt142 (Dec 7, 2011)

I've read this entire thread start to finish over the past few days. What resource it has become!


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> View attachment 313179


This looks better. I would recommend measuring each driver separately and combine pairs to make sure the xover are summing. 



MercuryFlint said:


> I'm going to guess the peak in the 40 to 60 range is from using my bass knob. The fall off after 10kHz is likely the crossover and EQ points I have there. I'll just try turning down the tweeters instead of EQ'ing and Xovering them down. Does 200 to 1k need to be toned down with EQ to make them match the 1k+ range? I've noticed a distinctly unpleasant note in the midbass lately.


Dont worry about 10khz + its either the tweeter, microphone, or the measurement technique. before eq'ing 200-1k try mesuring just the mid by itself. But yes the missing content below 200 is all your midbass.... Might be phase issue with your sub, woofer's out of phase (left and right), sub out of phase, etc. When you measure each side separately and then combined you should see them sum for 6dB but you probably will on see around 3dB or so. If you dont see them sum than you have a phase issue. The audiofrog tuning guide covers this pretty well. 









Wideband summing and cancellation -advice needed


Finally had some time to get tuning again and I'm stuck with an issue on my widebands (Other than the cancellation at ~10K, which must be an install issue or something). They are installed in the stock dash locations. Here are the wideband measurements taken at 1/6 octave They don't want to...




www.diymobileaudio.com





some other tips. 
1. Use LR 24 dB/oct xovers (linkwitz-riley 4th order) 
2. Make sure you're taking enough averages on the RTA. Correlated pink noise makes it quick but you probably need 20 or so. Just keep measuring until the response stops moving significantly. 






MercuryFlint said:


> View attachment 313181
> 
> 
> This is my current setup in TuN. I reset the PEQ, and also lowered the tweeter output by 6 dB. Turned off the LPF on the tweeters. The tweeters have an Fs of 1.5kHz, so those could probably be brought down to between 2.25kHz and 3kHz, if what I'm reading is correct.


I would go with 3kHz not sure what model tweeter you have but most car audio tweets have fairly high FS as they're quite small. Your current selection of xovers looks fine if the drivers can handle it.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Sweeps of both tweeters. LTweeter is green, RTweeter is blue.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

street.terror said:


> I've read this entire thread start to finish over the past few days. What resource it has become!


I'm so glad! This has become my journal of muddling my way into better quality car audio and the fantastic people who have and are helping me. If it helps anyone else, even better!


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Both tweeters combined in orange. Moving onto woofers next.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Woofers


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Sub


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

LWoofer plus sub, RWoofer plus sub, both Woofers and sub.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Tweets look ok. You cou


MercuryFlint said:


> View attachment 313221
> 
> 
> Both tweeters combined in orange. Moving onto woofers next.


I would set the Y axis scale to 5 dB per tick mark, so click the + button on the top left. 

For EQ you could drop the peak in the RT tweeter (at 6khz) down about 3dB and then match the left and right tweeter output with gain. Just enough to bring the tails up to match. that should smooth out the response a little. There might be a little bit of phase issue at 8khz but that probably doesn't matter too much. 

What method did you use to set TA?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Crud, I made two mistakes:

1. I reset the PEQ on the tweeters, but not the woofers.

2. I still have passive crossovers on the woofers, so they were double crossovered.

I'm correcting both mistakes now. I'll upload new tests in a bit.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> View attachment 313222
> 
> 
> Woofers


Midbass doesn't look too bad. I like to have some rising response starting around 200 Hz. Might be time to look at a house curve to tune against. Search the site and pick one. I'd say start out with the AF curve but you probably wont like the bass response. I've attached the one I use. You can view it against your measurements a few way. One would be to go to File - import freq reponse - go to the all spl tab and then manually increase the level to bring it up to your other plots w/ the options in the top right (control - spl offset).

You can see the signals aren't summing around 400-1.3k hz. Probably just some cabin acoustics.. I would bring down the 2khz bump a bit and then see if the midwoofer and sub can get a combined response on the low end like this.













MercuryFlint said:


> View attachment 313224
> 
> 
> LWoofer plus sub, RWoofer plus sub, both Woofers and sub.


Sub is out of phase with the mids, that is why the system response is down between 80 and 200 hz. Check your TA and also simply flip the phase on the sub (probably a button in the software) to verify. I'm guessing this is the problem you hear in the midbass. Also turn that bass boost a touch if you're using it.

When you get sub right, the orange line should be above the red, the woofers and sub will sum correctly and that 80-200 hz null will turn into a rising response which should work well for you.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Woofers


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Woofers and Sub, with passives removed.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Woofers + Sub normal, Woofers + Sub with Sub's phase switched.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Sorry, forgot to change the Y axis scaling. Here we go:


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Dropped the 6kHz on the RTweeter.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Both tweeters after adjusting RTweeter PEG at 6kHz.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Brought down 2kHz. These are the Woofers after the cut.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I have your house curve imported, but I couldn't find the spl offset. Is that under align spl?


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

All SPL tab, Controls (top right), measurement actions, select curve, spl offset


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Imported. My figures look way off.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)




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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

It's not too bad, you'll need to bring the gain down on the tweeters a bit but you might not like how much they roll off on the top end either. Play around with that a bit.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

this is another popular curve used by Audiofrog. I felt the bass wasn't enough and the top end I like a touch lower so that's why mine is a bit different. You can compare the two or any other curve out there.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

After bringing the tweeters down 3dB.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Why did lowering the tweets 3db cause the woofers to go up? 

Make sure your measurement technique is consistent.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Why did lowering the tweets 3db cause the woofers to go up?
> 
> Make sure your measurement technique is consistent.


I have no idea. I'm holding the microphone in the same place each time, with my seat scooted back six inches and it held right in front of my nose so it's close to where my head naturally sits. Doors closed, windows up..


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Must have been an issue with my position. The red is the most recent.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Well, there's less boomy bass. The mid bass is higher, there are less strange fluctuations throughout the bass response. It feels like there's a lot more mid and fill, and the vocalist has moved from all over the dash to a range from the center to the driver's side left. 

The lowest end bass is much lower.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Ran it again. Wonder what the dip at 1.4kHz is from.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Oh, my time alignment was set with a tape measure. Measured from the center of my head to each driver.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

I don't like stationary microphones. Put your seat back in the typical driving position, Sweep the microphone from ear to ear around the front of your head. Distance from your face should be about 3-5 inches. Or about the distance from your shoulder to your ear if that helps you visualize it. 

Take plenty of averages until the response stops jumping around. I think atleast 20 with correlated pink noise.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

This is what the RTA gives me.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

This was moving the microphone slowly in a 180 degree orbit from left ear to right ear and back. 

Time adjustment was slightly altered. Two of the values were off by an inch or two. 

Other than that dip around 180 Hz, this... doesn't look bad. I could be wrong, but it seems pretty okay.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Out of sheer curiosity I changed the polarity of the sub back. Here are the results.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Went for a test drive for the last 30 minutes. Varied music, from classic rock, to rap, to various electronica. 

The vocals in some songs are a little muffled sounding, like in a hollow chamber. It's not bad on some music, but on a few songs it sounded like I was listening to the vocals through a barrel. 

The bass is lower than it used to be, but it's less diffuse, much tighter overall, and the clarity has really improved. 

The highs are no longer peaky. It's much smoother, though I find myself actually missing a bit of the brightness.

The imaging is better. The vocalist tends to sit between the center of my dash and my A-pillar. This is an improvement from the previous wandering all over the dash, or sounding like it was coming from all around me. I find myself hearing the vocals out of my left woofer, like my attention is pulled there. 

Overall? Way freaking better than it was. Still needs some improvement, but definitely getting there 😁


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

It sounds like you made a good first pass. Takes some practice to get the process down. I recommend going through it all again with the better measurement method (moving mic). Mainly focusing on the mids and sub this time around. Just follow the audiofrog guide. I think it goes something like this:


Left tweeter
right tweeter
match tweeter responses
left woofer
right woofer
match woofers
Left tweeter and woofer - get the xover summing correctly
Right tweeter and woofer - get the xover summing correctly
Compare L side vs R side
Sub - response
full system - get the sub to sum at Xover point
Next time around you can try REW's auto eq stuff if you like. Its kinda useful depending on what you want to do. 

Sounds like you want to raise the tweeters up a bit. Now that the response is more or less flat (peaks removed at least) you can bring up the gain a little. If the slope is too much you can easily reduce some of the cuts on the top end. 

TA guide if you need it https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/timedelaycalc/

The Null at 180 might be a cabin mode. Probably more than a few threads with info and suggestions. 




__





cabin modes site:diymobileaudio.com - Google Search






www.google.com





If you get he 6.5s in those over head boxes the mode might go away or shift somewhere else since its tied to the shape of the cabin, location of the drivers, and the listening position.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

It sounds like I'll be spending a few more hours this morning measuring and tweaking. *Such *a shame! 😂 This stuff is way too fun. 

I appreciate the research directions! I'm going to try branching off in a couple of different directions with things, including trying that AudioFrog tuning guide. Chase down a few rattles and reverbs and see what I can make happen. I have a two hour drive tomorrow with a passenger, I'm going to try to create a Preset that at least makes it sound decent for both passengers before I make the trip. 

So, checking out this null at the moment. Interesting thing: when I run a straight sine wave through the bass range as soon as it hits 125 Hz the image jumps hard to the right. When I get up to 198 Hz it jumps back to centered. Not sure what that's about, but it's an interesting data point. 

I decided to EQ (pink noise, moving mic) in the driver's side, passenger side, front center, and rear center, just to see what happens.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

From the driver's seat tested each woofer independently, together, and then with sub.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Fun thing: the windows in my Jeep are thin, flexible plastic. I was curious how much of a factor they play in my Jeep's acoustics. 










Looks like it's virtually nothing. Now, once I'm driving and that air starts to move all bets are off, but as far as sitting still it's pretty wild how little the windows are a factor. This means I can do a lot of tuning with them out, and as hot as it's been lately it would be much nicer to have that air flow. I was pouring sweat yesterday doing all of this testing.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Car audio guys have a term they like to use, "near side null" which describes an acoustic mode common in most vehicles. Near side referring to the driver side. Typically its an interaction with the door mounted midbass where there is a null around 70 hz and another a bit higher up as you see here, kinda like a harmonic. Not too much you can do about it other than move the speaker location as I suggested earlier with the 6.5 overhead pods for midbass.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Ahhhhh, got it. I was playing with slow sine wave sweeps and noticed a drop in volume around the 487 Hz range as well. Hmm. Well, I _might_ be able to get my hands on another amp, potentially. I already have the 6.5s installed, I'll have to look into that. Basically would become a 3-way+sub system. Not optimal placement, but I'll see what I can get my hands on. I was really wanting those to become a fancy rear fill, but I would rather have midbass than that


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

The location isn't all that bad. Plenty of guys use underseat midbass to cover 80-200 hz, overhead should work Ok I think. Go find the cone of confusion thread... that's a good read.

And it's not like the rear seat passengers are missing out IMO, If anything, a good front stage will sound better than weak one with rear fill. 

My minidsp remote has 4 preset that I can swap on the fly, does the JL have something like this? You can use that swap tunes for different occasions.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

That makes sense. Okay, I'll be looking at an amp and kit to set up those overheads. I think I could swing it all for right around a hundred or so.

Mine does as well! I can press the control knob (which has separate control for volume and bass) and there's a little user-defined LED that changes color for each preset. I currently have it set for Driver, Center, and Passenger, so that anyone riding with me isn't getting a poor experience.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

You've convinced me. Your friendship is hard on my wallet, but wonderful for my ears 😁


----------



## Anu2g (Nov 4, 2020)

MercuryFlint said:


> You've convinced me. Your friendship is hard on my wallet, but wonderful for my ears 😁


Sounds like a lot of the friendships I've made on here


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Anu2g said:


> Sounds like a lot of the friendships I've made on here


You as well, buddy, though less harshness on my wallet 😁


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Oh, I do have a question. I have a HPF on my sub at around 23 Hz. What would be the best value for this?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Shew, the midbass is even worse when playing music. The light blueish colored line is from a song.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

RTA'ing a song doesn't really show you anything. You're just measuring the Song + Speaker's response, almost useless to measure. Those dips and peaks are probably just the content in the music.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> Oh, I do have a question. I have a HPF on my sub at around 23 Hz. What would be the best value for this?


For a sealed box you might not actually need one. You can model the sub and find out.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> RTA'ing a song doesn't really show you anything. You're just measuring the Song + Speaker's response, almost useless to measure. Those dips and peaks are probably just the content in the music.


Ah, fair enough. It was fun for giggles, at least. I like playing with my toys 😁


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Well, I made a total newbie mistake. When I first hooked up the DSP I went through my HU to cancel out all of the settings. Turns out there were a few still on. I've disabled everything and took more readings. 










The purple line is the newest one with all of the HU DSP settings turned off.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> For a sealed box you might not actually need one. You can model the sub and find out.


Oh, awesome! I'll try that in a bit. I know subs can be damaged in ported boxes if you didn't have that LPF enabled, but I wasn't sure about sealed. Thank you!


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Just as an update:










It's steadily improving! Now to figure out how to do individual driver EQ to get the soundstage together 😁.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

My first attempt at left/right EQ. Not down to individual drivers, but from the Audio Frog manual doing left EQ, right EQ, and blending. 

Got a bit of a bump in the 250 - 1.2k range when all of the drivers were combined, but overall much, much better.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

I'll try bringing up the 1.2k to 3.2k range later, but I'm really stoked about the progress. I'm fairly sensitive to treble, from what it seems, so I'll try it and see if I like it. It might just be my particular tweeters.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Okay, the individual driver EQ brought a LOT of that midbass up front instead of behind me, which is pretty freaking cool. It also centered that sound stage (which I wasn't expecting) a lot more than it was. 

A few issues:

I notice most of the soundstage is centered, but there are little bits that I can hear coming from my tweeter, a little from the woofer. It's not awful, but it's enough to divert my attention from the experience and throw me. 

The sound stage is fairly centered in the dash, which is neat but, honestly, I would rather have it directly in front of me. It may be picky, but having it slightly to my right keeps making me want to turn my head to enjoy it. What would I need to do to shift that soundstage a bit to my left?


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

I'm also someone who likes the stage a touch more left. Just bump the output up on the left side about 1 dB. 

Hearing the individual drivers or having it pulled towards a driver when it shouldn't might be a resonance issue. Like a door panel rattle or distortion from a driver.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> I'm also someone who likes the stage a touch more left. Just bump the output up on the left side about 1 dB.
> 
> Hearing the individual drivers or having it pulled towards a driver when it shouldn't might be a resonance issue. Like a door panel rattle or distortion from a driver.


Hey, Lithium!

Okay, I'll tinker with that on my lunch. Nothing that should be adjusted on the time alignment? 

I'll look for that, though I haven't had much resonance since I replaced the adaptor plates in my dash with those pods. I wonder about the distortion. Is the best way to search for that using a single tone generator at the lower frequencies and listening for, well, something that doesn't sound right?


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

So for freq above 1khz we localize sounds by the difference in intensity aka ILD. Below 1khz we localize by time difference, ITD. So the drivers with proper TA should already be center. All incident arrival of sound should happen at the same "time". There's probably a smarter way to describe that...

Anyways, I think shift the stage left a touch with the level control works fine. If you want to try different things with TA pick different points in space to measure to. Maybe use your nose vs the headrest. That said a few inches doesn't matter for ITD...


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> So for freq above 1khz we localize sounds by the difference in intensity aka ILD. Below 1khz we localize by time difference, ITD. So the drivers with proper TA should already be center. All incident arrival of sound should happen at the same "time". There's probably a smarter way to describe that...
> 
> Anyways, I think shift the stage left a touch with the level control works fine. If you want to try different things with TA pick different points in space to measure to. Maybe use your nose vs the headrest. That said a few inches doesn't matter for ITD...


Now, perfectly understandable. I researched the time delay a lot when I first got started with tuning. My distances are measured (several times) the center of my head when I have my head rested on the headrest. Though, thinking about it, I normally have my head forward a bit while I drive, though it should only change it by a few inches at most. My DSP has the feature where I can modify the time delay in ms while not changing the distances set, so it's easy to tinker and zero back out to measurements. 

I'll just play with the intensity of the drivers for now. I need to do some driver EQ with the tweeters since I was mainly focused on the woofers (largest discrepancies there and I only had about 40 minutes to play with it). Tuning is how I generally spend my lunch breaks, so I'll have an hour to tinker.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Okay, playing with individual EQ. I reset all of my EQ settings, ind driver gain settings, and ran a baseline of left drivers + sub and right drivers + sub. I ran each through REW's EQ generator against a Whitledge curve (just seemed interesting). Between that and overlapping the mids and tweets crossovers (to remove a dip around 3 kHz) I have this:











What I did on the last run of ind driver EQ'ing I just tried to make the right and the left match, even if the made the total curve further away from the target. Example, that dip at 2.5 kHz, the left doesn't have it, the right does, so I would bring the left down to match, even if it's moving away from the target.

Am I approaching this the correct way? Am I more concerned with making these mirror as opposed to each being as close to target as possible?


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

I think you're doing fine. Once you get down into the fine details I think you just have to try things and see what you ears actually hear. I think matching left vs right is more important than matching to the curve. So just decide what trade off to make and listen to music to figure out if that was good or bad.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> I think you're doing fine. Once you get down into the fine details I think you just have to try things and see what you ears actually hear. I think matching left vs right is more important than matching to the curve. So just decide what trade off to make and listen to music to figure out if that was good or bad.


That's what I thought. When I tried matching them before, even when it wasn't a smooth curve, it just sounded better.

What confuses me is, even though the treble is pretty low overall, it's still enough to bother me. I took out the gain adjustments for the individual drivers, but I swear it's almost ringing my head.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Assuming your not pushing them into distortion, always believe your ears. Adjust the target curve down if needed. In the REW EQ calculator you can adjust your target curve with a roll off. Maybe try 1dB/Octave. The field HF fall start (Hz) is where the roll off starts and HF Fall Slope (dB/Octave) would be the amount (try 1dB/octave).


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Assuming your not pushing them into distortion, always believe your ears. Adjust the target curve down if needed. In the REW EQ calculator you can adjust your target curve with a roll off. Maybe try 1dB/Octave. The field HF fall start (Hz) is where the roll off starts and HF Fall Slope (dB/Octave) would be the amount (try 1dB/octave).
> 
> View attachment 315421


Oh that's neat! I'll play with that in the morning. Thank you. 

I think my listening level is in the mid 90 dB range. I don't think it's distorting, it's just... bright. A little too sharp on the high notes of some songs, and the "s" sounds in vocals are intense, though I don't think the latter falls to high up the spectrum. 

Question: is the falloff of my highs (around 10kHz) normal? I read about people tinkering in the mid teens or higher and I wonder if I'm missing anything.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

I don't look at the plot above 10khz, don't really trust the mic/measurement method up that high. The "S" is sibilance. Throw a notch filter (narrow parametric eq) around 8kHz. 

Lots of threads with some tips to try out: 





__





sibilance site:diymobileaudio.com - Google Search






www.google.com


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> I don't look at the plot above 10khz, don't really trust the mic/measurement method up that high. The "S" is sibilance. Throw a notch filter (narrow parametric eq) around 8kHz.
> 
> Lots of threads with some tips to try out:
> 
> ...


Oh that's beautiful! I have some ideas now for EQ tuning which I'll play with on my lunch. 

So, another direction: as I've explored individual driver EQ I was introduced to the Jazzi spreadsheet. I tinkered with some target curves and have the active 2-way target that generates three separate house curves, one for highs, mids, sub. When I try to use these with REW it doesn't work, especially with tweeters. When I try to get it to match the target to the RTA test it moves the house curve way off. I think what's happening: when I RTA my tweeters alone I'm getting a decent bit of low-end noise, maybe from the environment. I think REW is calculating that into to its algorithm and throwing the curve. My question: how do you tell REW to ignore a certain part of the spectrum? Like for testing tweeters tell it to ignore everything under 1kHz. Also, do you think going into target matching with individual drivers to a separate curve like this is useful, or am I dancing in the field of diminishing returns?


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Also, odd point: when I use the REW EQ suggestions it _never_ makes recommendations in the upper range of the spectrum. Never suggests any cuts or boosts over the 2k range. I'm not sure why.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)




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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Looking at the response I sent I can see those peaks at 8 kHz and 4.8 kHz, so I bet those are contributing.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Okay, I decided to ditch the REW tuning and start from scratch. This is what I have after about an hour. 










I had run out of PEQ adjustment points with the REW tuning, and trying to tune around what was already there was too much.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Still a little convoluted, but much less so than with the previous tune. 3 is left woofer, 4 is right woofer. Very little adjustment on the tweeters so far, mostly one broad cut in the 7 k range and a narrow cut at 8 k to make that a slope instead of a double peak.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

In the auto eq section you specify what range of frequency you want the calculation to cover, the amount of boost it can use per band and In total, and the accuracy to the curve (+-1dB for example).

Typically I pick a measurement for a driver, say a tweeter. Set the target level for the house curve. Set the bandwidth if the auto eq. Apply some smoothing to the curve (maybe 1/3 octave). Limit the number of bands rew can use to the number of bands for my dsp. Then run it.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> In the auto eq section you specify what range of frequency you want the calculation to cover, the amount of boost it can use per band and In total, and the accuracy to the curve (+-1dB for example).
> 
> Typically I pick a measurement for a driver, say a tweeter. Set the target level for the house curve. Set the bandwidth if the auto eq. Apply some smoothing to the curve (maybe 1/3 octave). Limit the number of bands rew can use to the number of bands for my dsp. Then run it.


Ahhhhhhh, I gotcha! I'll have to tinker with the settings for that, then. I currently have four separate tunings in my DSP for different curves and different methods of tuning. This is fun 😁. 

When you use the auto EQ do you run it for each individual driver? Take the measurements, use the house curve, set the auto EQ target, input the EQ adjustments, per driver?


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

MercuryFlint said:


> When you use the auto EQ do you run it for each individual driver? Take the measurements, use the house curve, set the auto EQ target, input the EQ adjustments, per driver?


Yep, more or less. Then I pair up drivers (on the same side), check xover, level match, add another driver (if 3 way) repeat xover/level/etc, repeat for the other side.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

lithium said:


> Yep, more or less. Then I pair up drivers (on the same side), check xover, level match, add another driver (if 3 way) repeat xover/level/etc, repeat for the other side.


Very cool! I'm still shaky on how to pair drivers on the same side, so it's something I'll have to play with this weekend. 

With some tinkering, this is what I have tonight:










The 200 to 400 range is still summing more than expected, but overall getting there!


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Well, I may have damaged the sub. I just had a two hour drive and it felt like it started losing the chest thump feeling. It still plays, it does sound a little different. Can't say if it's distortion, and it does still play low notes, but it doesn't "feel" like it did before. 

I wish there was an easy way to tell that it's damaged. I'm frustrated.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

Could be a voice coil, check dmm. Physically move the coil and listen for coil rubbing. 

Also could be the box leaking, check for air leaks. 

check if you reduced the sub level out from the HU.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Dmm?

I'll check out the voice coil in the morning. Just looking for a rubbing sound?

The HU doesn't have anything reduced. I know the box wasn't leaking before, so that would be an easy fix, fingers crossed, thank you.


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## lithium (Oct 29, 2008)

digital multi meter. just check coil resistance/continuity to see if one is cooked. It would measure as an open circuit.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Okay, did an impedance test, it's DVC 4 ohm and it measured out at 2 ohm at the terminals. No air leaking. When I push the woofer straight down there's no rubbing, if I push on one side a bit of rubbing. Listened to it again, it might have been something to do with me changing the EQ. I didn't EQ the sub, but it doesn't sound bad at the moment. May have just been in my head. 20 hours awake and 4 hours of driving doesn't do great for me.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

This was me tuning and testing at a gas station halfway to my destination last night. Was going to post this before the whole situation with the sub took my attention. 











Finally got that big bump at 200 - 400 under control. I noticed cymbals crashing was driving me nuts. Looked at that interactive frequency chart, that and the other sounds that were bothering me seemed to run in the 200 - 400 range, so it was time to knock it down. I hope the reduction in relative disparity between the 180 and surrounding ranges improves things.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Oh! I found the source of a lot of my listener's fatigue! So I was playing with the HU DSP, which I normally only use to adjust driver volume while driving (I transfer it to the DSP once I'm stopped and have a few minutes). I decided to check out the EQ, somehow it was turned on with a HUGE boost at 6k and 8k. Almost maxed. I don't get it, I haven't used the HU EQ since I got my DSP and I made a point of turning it off, so I have no idea how that got bumped. I'm going to run some more pink noise tests in a bit to see how that's impacted my curve. However, it sounded immediately better after zeroing those out.


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## MercuryFlint (Jul 26, 2018)

Made some tweaks today, will upload screenshots in a bit. 

I tried to do an individual EQ against a Jazzi curve with middling success, though likely due to being incomplete. I did the individual driver measurement and EQ using REW's autoEQ. Afterwards I really wasn't sure what to do to blend the various drivers. I was left with something that sounded overly bright and unpleasant, much like my early tunes. I went back to the one I tuned Left + Sub/Right + Sub and it sounds much better. 

I decided to experiment with the treble range. I tend to really notice any bump in that 8 kHz range, but I noticed a lack of brightness which I attribute to there being so little in the 10 kHz range. I raised the amp gain on my tweeters, dropped the 6 kHz range with a wide Q (.66) and a big cut (5 dB), and then a second cut at 8 kHz with a narrow Q at about 2 dB. So far, it sounds pretty good! Much brighter. I still thing it's a little overly strong in the treble, so I'll play with the tweeter gains in a bit. 

The image does center decently, a little pull to the right (the opinion of both myself and my lady, who was kind enough to come out and listen for me). I tried cutting gain on the two right channels, but it didn't feel like any big shift, which I found odd. I'll have to experiment with that some more.


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