# CLD Testing



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

With the closure of SDS, along with some other companies on top of the creation of new companies like Resonix, its time to put these products through the gauntlet again.

I have plenty of time, but no funds to do this on my own, so I am fundraising to get this going. This test rig will be more accurate, have better resolution, lower noise floor, audio recordings, and testing at multiple temps. It is also unfortunately more expensive. This will be a permanent addition to my garage, enabling testing for the foreseeable future.

There will be a dedicated youtube channel where all tests will be posted for transparency. There will also be a dedicated webpage with a running database.

All purchases made with these funds will be documented, and reciepts will be posted for all to see that the funds are being spent appropriately. 

As of this point, I'm a little over 32% funded. I will begin gathering materials at the end of this week to start building the test rig, and post updates here as I go.


https://www.gofundme.com/raising-funds-for-new-and-improved-cld-test-rig&rcid=r01-155173830995-7be88c932b4c42da&pc=ot_co_campmgmt_w


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## SkizeR

Lets GOOOOOOOOO!!

As you saw, i donated what i can already. i would put up more but running 1 new business and starting another arent exactly good in the personal wallet department lol


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## Justin Zazzi

This looks awesome.
I have some materials on your wishlist that I can donate.
I'll send you the details.


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## rton20s

Let's do this people! Donate if you can. Chris' contributions have already proven invaluable to our community. Especially for DIYers. 

Thanks to all of you that have and will donate. This is going to be awesome.


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## rob feature

Bitchin! Thanks for doing this stuff Chris!


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## SkizeR

I love how we have a thread about tipping pizza delivery drivers getting 25 replies an hour, then this has chirping crickets.. what happened to this place?


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## Theslaking

I would donate but I don't do credit cards. I'll do a PayPal gift. PM me. I really appreciate your efforts. I've referenced them many times.


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## truckguy

I’m in for this and will donate a little later tonight. Can you test Ampere Audio Vibraflex? Thx


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## Dan750iL

I'm in. Looking forward to seeing results.


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## Holmz

Good on ya and best of luck with it.
(I did not leave a tip though)


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

truckguy said:


> I’m in for this and will donate a little later tonight. Can you test Ampere Audio Vibraflex? Thx


That is one of the products that definitely has to be included this time.


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## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> That is one of the products that definitely has to be included this time.


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## Jscoyne2

Perhaps email the cld companies and see if they'll donate.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR

Jscoyne2 said:


> Perhaps email the cld companies and see if they'll donate.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


aint no one gunna fund the revealing of the truth about their products


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## Jscoyne2

SkizeR said:


> aint no one gunna fund the revealing of the truth about their products


Maybe maybe not. Worth trying.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## Dan750iL

SkizeR said:


> aint no one gunna fund the revealing of the truth about their products


No one?

The ones with confidence in their product will.


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## Jscoyne2

If someone will write the email. Ill send them out.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## dgage

I'm with TheLasking that I won't put my name on a list to be contacted for other things. I made the mistake of giving directly to our local fire department once and that was a disaster as thereafter I'd get calls every couple months wanting donations for this or that. Finally got them to stop calling and now all of my donations are anonymous. 

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL - please PM me with your Paypal and I'll give directly if that is an option.

Thanks for offering to do more testing and share the results.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Jscoyne2 said:


> If someone will write the email. Ill send them out.
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


I prefer not to involve any companies. I will definitely not be reaching out to any. If any reach out to me, I will move forward on a case by case basis, and only with written terms that allow all products tested that are currently for sale, to be fully published, no matter how well or poorly they perform.

The last round of testing, I had several issues due to taking donations from companies. An employee from GTMat was fired after she convinced their owner to send me some products and it tested poorly. The owner of Raamat ranted against me several times on the forum. The new owner of Second Skin, the guy Ant sold the company to, was fully on board with my testing and testing method and sent me a large box of their products. Then, later on, when I called out the false advertising and impossible physics of Second Skin Speaker Tweakers, he went on a large, personal attack on me, my family, and my testing on this very forum. Moderators did nothing about it. Which is why I haven't been on this forum since 2016.

On top of that, there might always be the accusation of bias, no matter how unwarranted. That's a huge part of the reason I've turned down the two jobs I was offered in that industry (jobs that could really help me right now as I'm currently only partially employed and trying to get my own non-audio related business going).

Part of the testing procedure this time will include full video of all testing, from start to finish, to show that all products are given an equal chance. Thanks to the youtube channel my wife and I run, we have the equipment to do this properly now.


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## SkizeR

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> The last round of testing, I had several issues due to taking donations from companies. An employee from GTMat was fired after she convinced their owner to send me some products and it tested poorly.


are you ****ing kidding me... thats pathetic


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## Pb82 Ronin

In there like swim wear. I have some spare stuff I can send. Will this be just Dynamat like products, or are we including MLVs and OCF/CCFs?


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## rob feature

On top of the reasons TS2F gave for not wanting to accept things from companies, if they know they're sending a product for testing, they're going to make damn sure that it gets an extra helping of QC if nothing else. And who knows - they might even have some superior product lying around that was used in early prototypes or sommat that could be sent as a misrepresentation of the actual product being sold. I wouldn't even take anything from forum members or anyone else trying to help out. IMHO, to help eliminate variables, nefarious or not, all product to be tested should be purchased from authorized retailers by the party performing the test. 

Chris, I sure do hate to hear that you were treated like that. I wish I could say it's a surprise. Even more reason to applaud you for doing this.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

rob feature said:


> On top of the reasons TS2F gave for not wanting to accept things from companies, if they know they're sending a product for testing, they're going to make damn sure that it gets an extra helping of QC if nothing else. And who knows - they might even have some superior product lying around that was used in early prototypes or sommat that could be sent as a misrepresentation of the actual product being sold. I wouldn't even take anything from forum members or anyone else trying to help out. IMHO, to help eliminate variables, nefarious or not, all product to be tested should be purchased from authorized retailers by the party performing the test.
> 
> Chris, I sure do hate to hear that you were treated like that. I wish I could say it's a surprise. Even more reason to applaud you for doing this.


This is exactly where I'm headed, as far as purchasing products for the testing. Its not meant as an offense to any potential product donors, or donors from my last round of testing, but, last time some products were donated that were damaged upon arrival and therefore didn't get tested. I don't think it was intentional, just one of those things that can happen, especially when being sent leftovers from a project. 

Again, that's not to call out anyone who helped with the last run of testing, I truly appreciated everyone who helped. I wouldn't have been able to do it without you guys.


As for my treatment, I can say the worst that ever happened was with Second Skin's owner here, (although at a much later time I had a very pleasant conversation with another of their employees), and an email telling me I should kill myself. 

At least I didn't get death threats like Don from SDS did when he had his old testing page up.


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## Pb82 Ronin

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> This is exactly where I'm headed, as far as purchasing products for the testing. Its not meant as an offense to any potential product donors, or donors from my last round of testing, but, last time some products were donated that were damaged upon arrival and therefore didn't get tested. I don't think it was intentional, just one of those things that can happen, especially when being sent leftovers from a project.
> 
> Again, that's not to call out anyone who helped with the last run of testing, I truly appreciated everyone who helped. I wouldn't have been able to do it without you guys.
> 
> 
> As for my treatment, I can say the worst that ever happened was with Second Skin's owner here, (although at a much later time I had a very pleasant conversation with another of their employees), and an email telling me I should kill myself.
> 
> At least I didn't get death threats like Don from SDS did when he had his old testing page up.


Holy crap dude. BTW, you know you can file charges against people for things like that right?


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## SkizeR

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Holy crap dude. BTW, you know you can file charges against people for things like that right?


Yeah, but chris isnt a total ***** so.. 

Lol

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## rton20s

SkizeR said:


> Yeah, but chris isnt a total ***** so..
> 
> Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Holy crap dude. BTW, you know you can file charges against people for things like that right?


Yeah, I know. If I thought for a second any of them posed any danger, I definitely would have. But yeah, I knew it would happen before I even started. I was warned by multiple people that I was opening a hornets nest. 

I seem to do that a lot lol. rton20s knows what I'm talking about.


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## Pb82 Ronin

SkizeR said:


> Yeah, but chris isnt a total ***** so..
> 
> Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


Nothing to do with anyone being accused of being a "*****"...

I worked in Law Enforcement for over 15 years...and I can safely say that if someone or some business threatened me or my family just for doing the right thing (or in his case, a HUGE community service), you best believe I'd have authority figures (in various capacities) showing them the error of their ways. And if they didn't stand down...well let's just say, tradecraft is a misunderstood artform.


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## SkizeR

Let's make this forum worth a damn again.. 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Yeah, I know. If I thought for a second any of them posed any danger, I definitely would have. But yeah, I knew it would happen before I even started. I was warned by multiple people that I was opening a hornets nest.
> 
> I seem to do that a lot lol. rton20s knows what I'm talking about.


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## YeahWhatever

It is cute to see new guys jump in the market and fizzle out within a year or so. Almost as funny as watching the people jump on their bandwagon to get free stuff. Stick with the brands that have stood the test of time and you won't be disappointed. Have fun with your testing, look forward to seeing the results.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Unfortunately, the best performing brand just shut its doors. That leaves Dynamat Xtreme as the current leader, but it doesn't come close to the performance that SDS CLD Tile had.


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## YeahWhatever

I would disagree, the customer service from SDS was horrible when I tried multiple times. No one wants to wait 2 weeks for an email reply and even longer for the product to show up. But I am sure he is a good guy.


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## Pb82 Ronin

YeahWhatever said:


> I would disagree, the customer service from SDS was horrible when I tried multiple times. No one wants to wait 2 weeks for an email reply and even longer for the product to show up. But I am sure he is a good guy.


I would have to disagree with you on this. I ordered my tiles and they showed about 5 days later and when installed, they easily put Dynamat to shame. How do I know? I've used Dynamat for YEARS in several of my vehicles and was a brand loyalist...but ONE use of CLD tiles applied correctly was absolutely noticeable and clearly better than Dynamat. Just my opinion as an enthusiast though.


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## Theslaking

Can we not turn this in to a how awesome Don was/wasn't conversation. 95% of us have the same opinion. There's a recent SDS thread that stuff can go in.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

YeahWhatever said:


> I would disagree, the customer service from SDS was horrible when I tried multiple times. No one wants to wait 2 weeks for an email reply and even longer for the product to show up. But I am sure he is a good guy.


It should be noted that I am talking about product performance, not customer service. There are big names I won't buy from because of the way the owners behave, but that doesn't affect the actual product performance.

Check the old testing thread, and you'll see that SDS outperformed Dynamat by a good amount.


But, as Theslaking said, this is about testing current products. All current products will be tested, and a batch of SDS will be tested as it was the last testing cycles undisputed winner.


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## NoTraction

Good to see a new round of testing. Kudos to Chris

Too bad about SDS, wish I had known so I could have picked up more before the end.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

For those that don't follow on facebook, this project is about 50% funded. I have brought home the wood and casters, and ordered the audio recording mic last night using Parts-Expresses $15 off coupon. I will shortly be ordering the measurement mic, speakers, green glue, and a few other assorted items needed.


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## Turb0Yoda

Can't wait to see the new demos.


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## SkizeR

Bump. come on guys. 50, 20, hell, even 10 bucks will go a long way in helping get a really helpful test done and making this place worth a damn again.


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## rton20s

SkizeR said:


> Bump. come on guys. 50, 20, hell, even 10 bucks will go a long way in helping get a really helpful test done and making this place worth a damn again.


^^^THIS^^^

To be quite frank, between DIYMA and all of the FB groups (I understand the overlap), it is kind of embarrassing that we didn't hit the goal in a matter of days.


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## GreatLaBroski

Over half way there, I threw in as an Anon


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## Pb82 Ronin

I would be happy to donate, but I don't do facebook. Any chance someone could post a link to where/how we can donate? Or is that against forum rules?


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## GreatLaBroski

Pb82 Ronin said:


> I would be happy to donate, but I don't do facebook. Any chance someone could post a link to where/how we can donate? Or is that against forum rules?


I didn’t do Facebook log in, it allows you to donate directly from the site without Facebook or Google accounts being linked.


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## Theslaking

I pm'd Chris and we made it happen another way.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

There is a link to the GoFundMe at the end of the first post. Getting ready to order some more items on the list. Hopefully cutting wood this weekend.


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## D34dl1fter

Donated


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## genera_lee

any chance you'll be testing MESAMat this time around? or did i miss the results of it on the last CLD shootout? 

the shop i go to in my area is a distributor for Mesa. bummer about SDS. i was looking forward to using their stuff on my upcoming build


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

I will be testing everything I possibly can. The only catch is, it will take much longer to test products this time around. Possibly a week per product. Reasons being....

1 - Testing at seven different temps. It will take time to bring products to each temp.

2 - Testing at different levels. This doesn't add much time, but will give a clearer picture of performance.

3 - Multiple tests for each product to check for consistency. Etc.

That said, last time I tested 28 products over about a years time before the rig failed. This time, the rig will have to funds to build it so it doesn't fail, so in a years time I could test 52 products.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

As an update. I have the wood, casters, recording mic (bought with a $15 discount code) measurement mic, speakers (bought with another $15 discount code), and a friend sent me a pc so all I need for that is a screen. I'll be getting the sand tomorrow, and ordering green glue this week. I'm hoping to cut this weekend, but rain is forecast, so we'll see.


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## mwahlert

Is there a consolidated summary of your test results from last time around? Was RoadKill Ultimate tested?

Thanks.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Roadkill Ultimate didnt exist last time I tested. However, roadkill ultimate is just roadkill expert with foam attached.

Roadkill expert was tested. I frequently use it as an example to show why the butyl formula is the most important spec, and the one spec no one reveals.

Roadkill is thicker, heavier, and has a thicker aluminun layer than dynamat xtreme. Most people would guess that because of those things, stinger would perform better. But it doesnt, it performs noticeably worse. Dynamat reduced the resonance in my testing by 3db more, and reduced the q of the resonance much more (flattened the peak).


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## dlmax

I just donated and am looking forward to the testing and results. Come on everyone... toss in a 10 spot. It all adds up. Thanks for doing what you do, TSTF!

In my case, I'm just a guy with a car and a desire to have better sound and quieter environment. I had started the doors with SDS's product after a lot of time researching for the best quality product/results without breaking my wallet. Unfortunately, Don's timing (great experience BTW) meant that when I went to continue with other areas of my car, he had shut SDS down. I've switched to Kno Knoise Kolossus for the CLD and am interested to see how it fares. I've seen reviews indicating that they exaggerate their specs but the product still compares very well for the $. Picked up some Vibro 228 CCF for roof and select areas but have yet to source MLV for floor/firewall and rear seat back. I still am wondering/thinking of something for directly behind speakers in the doors but have yet to make a decision... I'll keep researching on that one, maybe just try some of the Vibro. Anyway, I'll have completed my car, most assuredly, before TSTF has completed his work so I'm only hoping that this grasshopper chooses wisely.


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## Theslaking

mwahlert said:


> Is there a consolidated summary of your test results from last time around? Thanks.


Just search cld testing diyma on Google.


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## OldNewbie

OK, I'm in. I am without a job right now so was reluctant to help out but this testing will help us all out for many months or years to come.


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## Alrojoca

Donate donate support support. I agree. Exclusive distributors of one product or manufacturers, should stay out of donating materials unless willing to accept the results.


You can buy a postal money order and donate with your avatar user name and send it if that makes some feel better.


I hope nobody else gets fired over these new tests, shame on the company that did that, since that would spread faster than the test failure itself.


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## YeahWhatever

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I prefer not to involve any companies.


Isn't your largest donation from a company that is going to sell sound deadener and you have talked about them multiple times on this forum on different threads already? To be fully transparent, unbiased, and taken seriously by everyone shouldn't you return all donations from companies that sell sound deadeners?


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## SkizeR

YeahWhatever said:


> Isn't your largest donation from a company that is going to sell sound deadener and you have talked about them multiple times on this forum on different threads already? To be fully transparent, unbiased, and taken seriously by everyone shouldn't you return all donations from companies that sell sound deadeners?


Your damn right it was. I want to know if my potential manufacturers are fudging my numbers. I already found out one was. Was better way to find out than independent testing. 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## Theslaking

YeahWhatever said:


> Isn't your largest donation from a company that is going to sell sound deadener and you have talked about them multiple times on this forum on different threads already? To be fully transparent, unbiased, and taken seriously by everyone shouldn't you return all donations from companies that sell sound deadeners?


He's not suggesting he's influenced by their donations. He is suggesting that they are influenced by his testing.

His ability to stave off bias is not in question. That's the main point of this type of test. To avoid company bias. 

We should not have the need to get rid of industry money. They should fund it completely and welcome the results. Unfortunately that seemingly has not been the case.

I think your response is the only thing not in line with the thread.


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## YeahWhatever

Theslaking said:


> He's not suggesting he's influenced by their donations. He is suggesting that they are influenced by his testing.
> 
> His ability to stave off bias is not in question. That's the main point of this type of test. To avoid company bias.
> 
> We should not have the need to get rid of industry money. They should fund it completely and welcome the results. Unfortunately that seemingly has not been the case.
> 
> I think your response is the only thing not in line with the thread.


Everyone has their own views in life, sir. I wouldn't buy a Chevy if they paid for all the testing done to win their silly awards...just like I would have to think twice about testing done with money from the product being tested. To each their own I guess. Seems like the tester is putting in a lot of work, no reason in my eyes to jeopardize the results over $200 from a friend and product owner. And Nick can still see his products results from the test without paying for them. But that is just my opinion. Good luck to all. leased:


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## SkizeR

YeahWhatever said:


> Everyone has their own views in life, sir. I wouldn't buy a Chevy if they paid for all the testing done to win their silly awards...just like I would have to think twice about testing done with money from the product being tested. To each their own I guess. Seems like the tester is putting in a lot of work, no reason in my eyes to jeopardize the results over $200 from a friend and product owner. And Nick can still see his products results from the test without paying for them. But that is just my opinion. Good luck to all. leased:


Good thing the testing will all be filmed to prevent any claims of bias  

If it really bothers you that much, dont buy my product. That doesn't bother me. Also, I had a good week last week so I think I'm gunna donate some more. 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

There are multiple layers of transparency built into this testing.

Yes, Nick donated. As of right now, Nick doesnt have a CLD product. Nick also knows I'll be the first to drop the hammer if it doesnt perform to expectations. Nick asked me if id rather him donate annonymously. I told him not to, for full transparency. Realistically, he would have donated anyways. 

Just to be clear, Nick has offered to help me get this project going for 3 years now. At some points, he even offered to pay in full for the set-up, but I wasnt in a position to have time to test.

Further, i have my house set up to film video. All tests will be fully recorded from start to finish. I may even stream the tests live. It will literally be hours of footage per test to show that everything is on the up and up. Given that my honestly got people fired last time, its unlikely the majority of people will see a conflict here.


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## Redliner99

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> There are multiple layers of transparency built into this testing.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Nick donated. As of right now, Nick doesnt have a CLD product. Nick also knows I'll be the first to drop the hammer if it doesnt perform to expectations. Nick asked me if id rather him donate annonymously. I told him not to, for full transparency. Realistically, he would have donated anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> Just to be clear, Nick has offered to help me get this project going for 3 years now. At some points, he even offered to pay in full for the set-up, but I wasnt in a position to have time to test.
> 
> 
> 
> Further, i have my house set up to film video. All tests will be fully recorded from start to finish. I may even stream the tests live. It will literally be hours of footage per test to show that everything is on the up and up. Given that my honestly got people fired last time, its unlikely the majority of people will see a conflict here.




Jesus people will complain about anything!! Your doing this forum and community a great service and not being paid to do it which to anyone with half a brain would show your transparency. Keep on keeping on man good work. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pb82 Ronin

Has anyone ever heard of https://drartex.com/ ? It's a sound deadening company based out of Singapore. They make some claims about their stuff being great. Maybe worth wile to test.


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## YeahWhatever

SkizeR said:


> Your damn right it was. I want to know if my potential manufacturers are fudging my numbers. I already found out one was. Was better way to find out than independent testing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


"Independent" testing is usually conducted by a third party which you have zero affiliation with, sir. You and Chris have been friends for like a decade. If you are so worried about the real numbers, why not pay an actual lab to test your up and coming product line like most other brands do when they come to the market? Please do donate more money, so that he can reach his goal and get this started, maybe you can get a plaque on the testing data that says "Project funded by Nick" 

PS Live streaming every step of the test would be much more transparent then recording and editing the videos, imo. Good luck and can't wait to see the findings this year.


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## SkizeR

YeahWhatever said:


> "Independent" testing is usually conducted by a third party which you have zero affiliation with, sir. You and Chris have been friends for like a decade. If you are so worried about the real numbers, why not pay an actual lab to test your up and coming product line like most other brands do when they come to the market? Please do donate more money, so that he can reach his goal and get this started, maybe you can get a plaque on the testing data that says "Project funded by Nick"
> 
> 
> 
> PS Live streaming every step of the test would be much more transparent then recording and editing the videos, imo. Good luck and can't wait to see the findings this year.


Because the companies that do this testing are the same ones that make the product. I already have their results, one of which was fudged. Also, the testing they do is not anything like the testing done here. I also am not 100% sure how they correlate since the testing done professionally is done at 200hz. That's not very informative for our use. And again, if you dont like the results, dont use the test as your reference. 

Ps, I havent even been on here for a decade. I wasnt even driving a decade ago lol

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## GreatLaBroski

YeahWhatever said:


> "Independent" testing is usually conducted by a third party which you have zero affiliation with, sir. You and Chris have been friends for like a decade. If you are so worried about the real numbers, why not pay an actual lab to test your up and coming product line like most other brands do when they come to the market? Please do donate more money, so that he can reach his goal and get this started, maybe you can get a plaque on the testing data that says "Project funded by Nick"
> 
> PS Live streaming every step of the test would be much more transparent then recording and editing the videos, imo. Good luck and can't wait to see the findings this year.


What about me and the other forum members who donated to the project? Or does the $200 that Nick put in overrule everyone else’s contributions? How much did you contribute to the project?

If you don’t like the results of the testing or if you don’t trust the person performing it then kindly get out. Otherwise all I see is some no-post loudmouth annoying me when I get email notifications of the latest rude thing you said.

The obvious reason independent laboratory testing hasn’t been done is because of:

1. Expense
2. Lab setups differ, meaning that all samples from all manufacturers would need to be sent and tested by the same lab to have accuracy. (Refer back to 1)

Even if Nick is doing this privately he will have legal challenges to posting his data because the companies whom he’s competing with will sue to try to suppress it. They’d probably go down the route of saying that it isn’t covered under fair use of the Trademark due to it being a competitor’s marketing material, and it’d probably be deemed valid. Aside from possible financial penalties, that’d leave him with some weak “compared to a popular competing CLD panel maker” type of comparison chart, which while accurate, would be completely flaccid.

So the solution is independent testing, from a source who can actually publish it. Now if you’re willing to arrange and pay for the top xx brands of CLD tiles to be tested by a lab then by all means go for it.

Otherwise it seems like you’re some paranoid nobody who’s suddenly prancing in here and demanding all kinds of special treatment that people who actually contributed aren’t even asking for.


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## rton20s

GreatLaBroski said:


> Otherwise it seems like you’re some paranoid nobody who’s suddenly prancing in here and demanding all kinds of special treatment that people who actually contributed aren’t even asking for.


Truth.


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## dgage

Since there are many new posters in here, I'd like to point out 2 things.

1. TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL has done CLD testing for this community several years ago. With the turnover in products, now is a good time for another round of CLD testing. And I'm very appreciative of the time AND MONEY TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL has put into preparing for this testing. We also have the benefit of additional knowledge and equipment that will be put into this round of testing.

2. Thinking about the people that would have an issue with a very public and known distributor involvement in the testing, the main ones I come up with are those that don't know any better or people from competing companies that are worried about the test results. For those that don't know any better, read #1 and do some research. For #2, please stay off the board or focus on developing better products. While fads and forum darlings happen, DIYMA is usually focused on identifying quality products that provide good value. This is why brands like SB Acoustics and similar become popular. 

Last thing I'll say is please stop suggesting TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL will skew results for money as that is incredibly offensive without proof of such improprieties.


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## vettefiend

I just dropped some coin into the gofundme bucket. 

I was the 39th donation but we have something like 5,000 "active" members so we just need people to get in here and give a little bit. This is the kind of DIY stuff that we as a group should get behind and support.

Thanks for taking on this task, TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL!


----------



## norurb

Just donated. Looking forward to the results.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Hey guys, thanks for the support. I'm actually getting a lot less crap then the first time I did this years ago. No death threats or suggestions to kill myself. Yet. Lol.

I will have a video update next week that will be posted across all platforms.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

As for live streaming, I have no problem doing it, but, there would still have to be cuts. DSLR's have a 30min recording limit before shutting off recording to keep them from being taxed as a camcorder in Europe.


----------



## SkizeR

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Hey guys, thanks for the support. I'm actually getting a lot less crap then the first time I did this years ago. No death threats or suggestions to kill myself. Yet. Lol.
> 
> I will have a video update next week that will be posted across all platforms.


kill yourself..

ok, now that thats over with, when can we start testing?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

As for live streaming, I have no problem doing it, but, there would still have to be cuts. DSLR's have a 30min recording limit before shutting off recording to keep them from being taxed as a camcorder in Europe.


----------



## SkizeR

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> As for live streaming, I have no problem doing it, but, there would still have to be cuts. DSLR's have a 30min recording limit before shutting off recording to keep them from being taxed as a camcorder in Europe.


web cam


----------



## Pb82 Ronin

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Has anyone ever heard of https://drartex.com/ ? It's a sound deadening company based out of Singapore. They make some claims about their stuff being great. Maybe worth wile to test.


So....has this been used by anyone on this board? Is it worth buying some samples to test? TS2F?


----------



## SkizeR

Pb82 Ronin said:


> So....has this been used by anyone on this board? Is it worth buying some samples to test? TS2F?


from what i can tell, its the same as noico, just with different thicknesses. seems to use the same foil, butyl, and packaging.


----------



## Pb82 Ronin

I'd be willing to buy some to test for him...just need to know sample sizes requested.


----------



## rob feature

YeahWhatever said:


> "Independent" testing is usually conducted by a third party which you have zero affiliation with, sir. You and Chris have been friends for like a decade. If you are so worried about the real numbers, why not pay an actual lab to test your up and coming product line like most other brands do when they come to the market? Please do donate more money, so that he can reach his goal and get this started, maybe you can get a plaque on the testing data that says "Project funded by Nick"
> 
> PS Live streaming every step of the test would be much more transparent then recording and editing the videos, imo. Good luck and can't wait to see the findings this year.


Paid lab testing of this scope would be impossible due to cost constraints. This set of tests is estimated to cost $2,000 with FREE LABOR and facilities. And it will be a lot of labor - as witnessed by the last batch of tests. As Chris does this there are no overhead costs, no dozens of man hours at triple digits, no lab setup fees - just a generous & talented guy with a curiosity about a pretty cool subject. This would easily run into 5 digits going through a lab. 

Since you're being picky, what would satisfy your standard of funding? I kicked in and I personally profit from soundproofing. Am I a conflict of interest too? Would you only accept government funding? 

You're lucky to be able to access a community with such a committed membership - just sayin'.


----------



## SkizeR

rob feature said:


> Paid lab testing of this scope would be impossible due to cost constraints. This set of tests is estimated to cost $2,000 with FREE LABOR and facilities. And it will be a lot of labor - as witnessed by the last batch of tests. As Chris does this there are no overhead costs, no dozens of man hours at triple digits, no lab setup fees - just a generous & talented guy with a curiosity about a pretty cool subject. This would easily run into 5 digits going through a lab.
> 
> Since you're being picky, what would satisfy your standard of funding? I kicked in and I personally profit from soundproofing. Am I a conflict of interest too? Would you only accept government funding?
> 
> You're lucky to be able to access a community with such a committed membership - just sayin'.


The proper testing that he wants (that may not even be the best for our use, since again, tested at 200hz) takes 3 days per sample, and requires multiple people, all with PHD's in their select field. Yeah, sorry. I cant even imagine how much that would cost and I'm not shelling out for that unless they offer it for free or highly discounted when using them for manufacturing.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

SkizeR said:


> web cam


True. Curious to see if anyone will sit through a whole test session.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Pb82 Ronin said:


> So....has this been used by anyone on this board? Is it worth buying some samples to test? TS2F?


I'm willing to test anything. Just need to make the list and put them in order. SDS will be first since its the baseline product. 

I'm actually liking their Redwind product. Would probably help my current car. And might be easier to slip in the seals than surgical tubing ive seen used for the same purpose.


----------



## SkizeR

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> True. Curious to see if anyone will sit through a whole test session.


No one will, but you can always save them and leave the streams up for viewing later. 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## GreatLaBroski

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> I'm actually liking their Redwind product. Would probably help my current car. And might be easier to slip in the seals than surgical tubing ive seen used for the same purpose.


Yeah that's the product that caught my eye too.


----------



## Blu

Donation made.


----------



## rton20s

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> True. Curious to see if anyone will sit through a whole test session.





SkizeR said:


> No one will, but you can always save them and leave the streams up for viewing later.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


^^^THIS^^^

If you stream it live, very few will watch and even less will watch it all the way through live. However, if the live streams are kept up on Youtube, you'll likely see more views there where people can increase the playback speed or just skip to the "good stuff." And I imagine that any manufacturer whose product performs well will quickly start spreading links to their test (and others) as a marketing tool. The ones that don't perform so well... you already know how they react. 

Also... Zero2CLDTesting?


----------



## Pb82 Ronin

GreatLaBroski said:


> Yeah that's the product that caught my eye too.


Is there a link for this product? I didn't see it on the SDS site...


----------



## GreatLaBroski

Pb82 Ronin said:


> GreatLaBroski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah that's the product that caught my eye too.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a link for this product? I didn't see it on the SDS site...
Click to expand...

Yeah that post was confusing, the product isn’t from SDS: http://catalog.drartex.com/redwind-4-doors-20-meters/


----------



## jdunk54nl

I can't wait for testing to begin. I need to deaden my truck but now that SDS is gone I want to know what to use for CLD. 
I know dynamat extreme is the current recommended but it leaves something to be desired compared to SDS. Hopefully there will be a new champion that even outperforms SDS with cost/performance!


Side Note: Who cares who donates money to this as long as they don't interfere. TS2F clearly was not persuaded with the previous test by who donated stuff.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Pb82 Ronin said:


> Is there a link for this product? I didn't see it on the SDS site...


Yeah, sorry I meant the drartex stuff, Redwind.


----------



## 1883atlantics

I didn't see this in the other test (all 70 pages)...what were the results for the GP STFU deadner? There's reference to the product's adhesive performance but I never saw the graphs for it. Also, is STFU v2 going to be tested this time around? 

Thank you TooStubborn for all your hard work!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Old test rig was un-usable by the time I got the STFU V2 in, which is what I heat tested. It will be tested again.


----------



## Dan750iL

By heat testing I'm guessing you mean how hot before it fails?

I was just coming to ask if you're going to see what kind of insulation value they have. Last summer I was putting CLD on the outer skin of the doors of my Explorer at about 2pm on an 85 degree day in direct sunlight. At one point I put my hand on the bare metal of the outer skin and got exactly what my dumb ass deserved. After I got the CLD in I could easily keep my hand on the outer skin. Still mid afternoon in direct sunlight. I know it's not really a part of the performance of a CLD as a dampener but it seems (and I'm guessing again here) it would be easy enough to point a infrared temp gun at the other side from your heat source if you are doing heat testing to measure the drop.


----------



## SkizeR

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Old test rig was un-usable by the time I got the STFU V2 in, which is what I heat tested. It will be tested again.


funny enough, i have a tesla in the shop right now. Another shop used another brands version (same stuff, different logo) of this stuff. our job today with it is to fix the rattles in the trunk that the previous shop couldnt handle. the stuff they used was all falling off when we took the panels of the hatch off. My feeling is the stfu also didnt hold up to heat very well..?


----------



## seafish

SkizeR said:


> ... the previous shop couldnt handle. the stuff they used was all falling off when we took the panels of the hatch off. My feeling is the stfu also didnt hold up to heat very well..?


Certainly that is possible, but is also speculation at this point as it is also possible that "the previous shop" did not clean and prep the panels well enough and/or simply applied it without rolling. Or applied it on a cold surface on a cold day. Or failure was a combination of ALL of the above. Just saying'.


----------



## SkizeR

seafish said:


> Certainly that is possible, but is also speculation at this point as it is also possible that "the previous shop" did not clean and prep the panels well enough and/or simply applied it without rolling. Or failure was a combination of ALL of the above.


you shouldnt really need to do any prep in the hatch of a car thats a year old.


----------



## seafish

SkizeR said:


> you shouldnt really need to do any prep in the hatch of a car thats a year old.


K...but proper application techniques are STILL important IMO.


----------



## SkizeR

seafish said:


> K...but proper application techniques are STILL important IMO.


Of course. But this product has a history of melting and falling off 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## seafish

SkizeR said:


> Of course. But this product has a history of melting and falling off
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


Didn't know that...thanks.


----------



## 1883atlantics

SkizeR said:


> funny enough, i have a tesla in the shop right now. Another shop used another brands version (same stuff, different logo) of this stuff. our job today with it is to fix the rattles in the trunk that the previous shop couldnt handle. the stuff they used was all falling off when we took the panels of the hatch off. My feeling is the stfu also didnt hold up to heat very well..?


Good info to know. I'm waiting on your Resonix stuff to be released before starting my sound deadening. 
-To clarify, post 1153 in the original test shows STFU V1 was the clear winner in heat testing. Is that the product you dealt with in the Tesla?


----------



## SkizeR

1883atlantics said:


> Good info to know. I'm waiting on your Resonix stuff to be released before starting my sound deadening.
> -To clarify, post 1153 in the original test shows STFU V1 was the clear winner in heat testing. Is that the product you dealt with in the Tesla?


no. the v1 must be different than all of the other generic CLD with foam products out there. I have 3 "different" products here right now and theyre all the same, with the same butyl, foam, aluminum, backing paper, dimensions, etc.. if i wanted to i could even make the same stuff with my logo on it since the manufacturer is easy to find and very cheap. i dont plan on taking the easy way out so i cant promise when my product will be done. If you get to impatient, dynamat extreme is what i suggest.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

SkizeR said:


> funny enough, i have a tesla in the shop right now. Another shop used another brands version (same stuff, different logo) of this stuff. our job today with it is to fix the rattles in the trunk that the previous shop couldnt handle. the stuff they used was all falling off when we took the panels of the hatch off. My feeling is the stfu also didnt hold up to heat very well..?


Its actually one of 5 that held up to 400 degrees. The others being soundskins, dynamat, sds, and second skin. 

I've heard of soundskins and stfu failing. Possibly bad quality control?


----------



## Jscoyne2

Or someone just put it on wrong? I've had cld fall off because the metal was greasy or had a ton of dirt on it.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


----------



## GreatLaBroski

@toostubborn, you know a good way to test heat resistance would be to set up a bunch of 3D printer silicone heater bed pads affixed to a piece of sheet metal.

Then use a standalone 12v temperature controller hooked up to good quality solid state relay (12v triggerable), hooked up to the heater pad and thermocouple.

12v temperature controller: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Temperatur...ed-control-for-Reprap-3D-printer/141918997931

Solid state relay: https://www.verical.com/pd/crydom-s...MI9-W3r7e64QIVcSCtBh131wKsEAUYASABEgJSbvD_BwE

Silicone heater pad: https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32869393982.html

The most expensive part is a non-chineesium solid state relay. About $60 total for a pretty sweet setup. You would need a 12v power brick to power the controller board, but that can be had for a few bucks on amazon.

For further safety, you can get something like a 100-120c limit switch plus a 4a fuse to apply to the 120v power input path for the heater pad. That will protect against controller malfunction and any pad meltdown situations.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

GreatLaBroski said:


> @toostubborn, you know a good way to test heat resistance would be to set up a bunch of 3D printer silicone heater bed pads affixed to a piece of sheet metal.
> 
> Then use a standalone 12v temperature controller hooked up to good quality solid state relay (12v triggerable), hooked up to the heater pad and thermocouple.
> 
> 12v temperature controller: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Temperatur...ed-control-for-Reprap-3D-printer/141918997931
> 
> Solid state relay: https://www.verical.com/pd/crydom-s...MI9-W3r7e64QIVcSCtBh131wKsEAUYASABEgJSbvD_BwE
> 
> Silicone heater pad: https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32869393982.html
> 
> The most expensive part is a non-chineesium solid state relay. About $60 total for a pretty sweet setup. You would need a 12v power brick to power the controller board, but that can be had for a few bucks on amazon.
> 
> For further safety, you can get something like a 100-120c limit switch plus a 4a fuse to apply to the 120v power input path for the heater pad. That will protect against controller malfunction and any pad meltdown situations.


That's actually a neat idea, but my concern would be it not getting hot enough. Last time a product made it past 250 degrees, and failed at 300 degrees F, and that was a product that had failed in multiple cars. I need to look and see if you can get heaters like that that can handle higher heat.


----------



## GreatLaBroski

You’ll have to look for spec sheets, but many are stable at 200c (392f) for continuous use. That should be enough.


----------



## OCD66

If you really want to test the extremes, an infrared is the way to go. I can heat well over 300f in minutes. Broad, even heat. 
Model SRU-1615 - Infratech Official Site



Add one of these and you'll know within a few degrees.
https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Las...eway&sprefix=infrared+thermiom,aps,252&sr=8-3


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## SkizeR

more donated. come on guys, only 250 more dollars!


----------



## Jscoyne2

So does he not get the money if it doesn't hit the mark?

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


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## SkizeR

Jscoyne2 said:


> So does he not get the money if it doesn't hit the mark?
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


he does. he already pulled some out to buy the wood if i remember correctly


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Jscoyne2 said:


> So does he not get the money if it doesn't hit the mark?
> 
> Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk


It's been automatically being sent to a bank account that I am using solely for this project. I currently already have the wood, both microphones, measurement computer, transducers, and casters. Green glue is on the way, and tomorrow the rest of the equipment will be ordered. Assembly will take some time as green glue has a set up time, and its 88 pieces of wood that have to be cut, and assembled, and some pieces have to be cut after the green glue has been applied to make sure dimensions are correct. Basically, the last $200 is going to cover the metal work for the actual clamping mechanism.


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## SkizeR

come on boys. lets make this place worth a damn again in some way


----------



## Dan750iL

In for $25 more to bump the thread.


----------



## Bnlcmbcar

Dropped in $50 to support


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks guys. I'm actually calling meniscus in a few mins to see what's going on with my order from them for this project.


----------



## reburns

Chris - I chipped in to your GoFundMe, even though I'm not a DIY Audio guy (but I do have tube audio at home). My project is a Sprinter camper van and I procrastinated too long to buy from SDS. :-( The van itself is quite loud, and now I'm left scrambling for substitute recommendations:

CLD: "Normal" for most areas, and "Thick" for wheel wells and driver's doors.

MLV: I have some, but might need more.

Closed cell foam: to suspend the MLV... this shouldn't need be too specific.

Hydrophobic Melamine Foam for thermal insulation: while it's easy to find cheap Melamine Foam, I want to find hydrophobic treated and don't have any good source!

Cheerio - Ralph


----------



## SkizeR

reburns said:


> Chris - I chipped in to your GoFundMe, even though I'm not a DIY Audio guy (but I do have tube audio at home). My project is a Sprinter camper van and I procrastinated too long to buy from SDS. :-( The van itself is quite loud, and now I'm left scrambling for substitute recommendations:
> 
> CLD: "Normal" for most areas, and "Thick" for wheel wells and driver's doors.
> 
> MLV: I have some, but might need more.
> 
> Closed cell foam: to suspend the MLV... this shouldn't need be too specific.
> 
> Hydrophobic Melamine Foam for thermal insulation: while it's easy to find cheap Melamine Foam, I want to find hydrophobic treated and don't have any good source!
> 
> Cheerio - Ralph


Hey Ralph, is your son Nick? Did we happen to meet at my shop a few weeks back?


----------



## reburns

SkizeR said:


> Hey Ralph, is your son Nick? Did we happen to meet at my shop a few weeks back?


Hi SkizeR - nope not me. Another Ralph??? Impossible!


----------



## SkizeR

reburns said:


> Hi SkizeR - nope not me. Another Ralph??? Impossible!


TBH i forget the name (i am horrible with names), but your story sounds _identical_ to a customers father who visited my shop and followed chris's old thread where i just so happened to tell him that chris is in the process of gearing up for another test and i am in the process of starting a deadening company.


----------



## PickleSlice

I'll be happy to donate, and I'd be happy to also donate Noico 80mil. I did the front door on my truck, and I *feel* like it made a difference, but I'd love to see it on paper. 

I searched your original thread for Noico, and although I saw it referenced, I never saw it actually tested. 

Would it be possible to post the results in an easier to search format? I'd be willing to help out maintaining a website if that would be easier.


----------



## SlvrDragon50

PickleSlice said:


> I'll be happy to donate, and I'd be happy to also donate Noico 80mil. I did the front door on my truck, and I *feel* like it made a difference, but I'd love to see it on paper.
> 
> I searched your original thread for Noico, and although I saw it referenced, I never saw it actually tested.
> 
> Would it be possible to post the results in an easier to search format? I'd be willing to help out maintaining a website if that would be easier.


I would love to see Noico tested as well since we've heard reports of it doing well, but there's never actually been testing.

Can you test Soundbarrier MX-4 or would it not work since it's CLD + CCF? I'd be happy to send in a sample since I think I will have leftovers. Just let me know how much you need so I don't use it all up!


----------



## adriancp

I have a request for one to be tested if possible. DD Audio EA-3.0. the butyl is 3mm thick, or 118 mils. 

I would love to see how this stacks up.

If you need a piece sent in, just let me know. 


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

SlvrDragon50 said:


> I would love to see Noico tested as well since we've heard reports of it doing well, but there's never actually been testing.
> 
> Can you test Soundbarrier MX-4 or would it not work since it's CLD + CCF? I'd be happy to send in a sample since I think I will have leftovers. Just let me know how much you need so I don't use it all up!


noico is rebranded from SPT silver. that was tested.


----------



## PickleSlice

SkizeR said:


> noico is rebranded from SPT silver. that was tested.


I did not know this, thank you!

:EDIT:

Hey, it works. Not as good as the more expensive CLD, but it definitely works.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1954612-post375.html


----------



## SkizeR

PickleSlice said:


> I did not know this, thank you!


Personally, I would use less of a better product. Itll most likely cost less in the long run and require less work. 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## St7_77

Nick / Chris, I know the results of the last test were that 25% coverage did the bulk of the deadening, at least CLD wise. I also feel like I read a post somewhere by one of you that said that either full sheets or separate/unconnected/(overlapping or not?) pieces were more effective? Ringing any bells? 

I'm new to this and wondering how much to use / whether to combine with other products (like CCF, MLV, melanine foam - the SDS site approach).

I'm also wondering if those "full car" kits of dynamat xtreme are bogus advertising? They're like $150 and I'm guessing we wouldn't be talking prices much if that were the total cost of dampening a car. 

Btw, super pumped for the new tests. Any idea when those might be underway? Are you just waiting on that last $50?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

1 - Returns do diminish after 25%, how much you should use depends on how severe the resonance issues are in your car. Full sheets are definitely better than the same coverage with smaller pieces.

SDS approach is definitely the best bet for overall noise control.

You can probably do a majority of the vibration damping for $150 or so on some of the smallest cars. Entirely dependent on the number and size of the resonant panels in each car.

I'm definitely not waiting for the last $50. I have been delayed a little though.

Essentially I lost my job last year in July. It was a big ordeal, lawyers were involved, the union was involved, eventually I got the termination off my record and got my retirement and unemployment back. In the meantime, I started working as a notary, got a part time job at USPS, and was delivering for postmates to try to pay the bills. But, things didn't pick up as quickly as I needed, and no one was replying to my applications for full time work. Got to the point we had to borrow from family to keep our house. USPS finally opened a full time job, and I jumped on it, but I've been in training the last few weeks out of town, so I haven't had time to work on anything for those weeks. I'm actually leaving now for my last day of training.

So, I want to apologize. The testing is coming, it just got delayed a couple of weeks. I have 95% of what I need to get it going, and the funds to get what I don't have. Most of the money that is left was to be used to purchase products to test.


----------



## rob feature

M'eh on the delay. Congrats on landing the job!


----------



## OldNewbie

I hope the new job goes well. I know USPS has a lot of rules to be followed. Good luck!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Thanks guys. Ill find out when my OJI starts today, today is the last day of academy. Literally just pulled in to the facility. If OJI doesnt start this weekend, I'll get a lot done on the rig. If not, I'll get it done as I can. As a CCA, I'm on call 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, but, they arent supposed to work me more than 7 days straight (or they have to pay me double time).


----------



## St7_77

Before I even read your reply, just want to say, tons of respect and appreciation for the testing.


----------



## St7_77

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> 1 - Returns do diminish after 25%, how much you should use depends on how severe the resonance issues are in your car. Full sheets are definitely better than the same coverage with smaller pieces.
> 
> SDS approach is definitely the best bet for overall noise control.
> 
> You can probably do a majority of the vibration damping for $150 or so on some of the smallest cars. Entirely dependent on the number and size of the resonant panels in each car.
> 
> I'm definitely not waiting for the last $50. I have been delayed a little though.
> 
> Essentially I lost my job last year in July. It was a big ordeal, lawyers were involved, the union was involved, eventually I got the termination off my record and got my retirement and unemployment back. In the meantime, I started working as a notary, got a part time job at USPS, and was delivering for postmates to try to pay the bills. But, things didn't pick up as quickly as I needed, and no one was replying to my applications for full time work. Got to the point we had to borrow from family to keep our house. USPS finally opened a full time job, and I jumped on it, but I've been in training the last few weeks out of town, so I haven't had time to work on anything for those weeks. I'm actually leaving now for my last day of training.
> 
> So, I want to apologize. The testing is coming, it just got delayed a couple of weeks. I have 95% of what I need to get it going, and the funds to get what I don't have. Most of the money that is left was to be used to purchase products to test.


No need to apologize. You’re above and beyond what most of the rest of us are doing for this forum/community. 

SDS is best but no longer available, correct? So for now it’s dynamat extreme (or maybe kolossus? Have to check availability) until the new testing is out? ... I have a 2010 Accord V6. Not the smallest car, also not the most cheaply assembled per say. Wouldn’t say it’s on the extremely noisy end (but I’m also newb to car audio).


----------



## rton20s

St7_77 said:


> No need to apologize. You’re above and beyond what most of the rest of us are doing for this forum/community.
> 
> SDS is best but no longer available, correct? So for now it’s dynamat extreme (or maybe kolossus? Have to check availability) until the new testing is out? ... I have a 2010 Accord V6. Not the smallest car, also not the most cheaply assembled per say. Wouldn’t say it’s on the extremely noisy end (but I’m also newb to car audio).


From the old testing, yes. I would probably go with either of those two. Though, Kolossus is more likely to fail (not that it will) in areas with high temperatures. 

You might also consider Resonix. It hasn't been tested yet, but I've been talking with Nick throughout his process of developing the brand/selecting products and rolling the dice on his new CLD is likely a risk I would be willing to take.


----------



## St7_77

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> 1 - Returns do diminish after 25%, how much you should use depends on how severe the resonance issues are in your car. Full sheets are definitely better than the same coverage with smaller pieces.
> 
> SDS approach is definitely the best bet for overall noise control.
> 
> You can probably do a majority of the vibration damping for $150 or so on some of the smallest cars. Entirely dependent on the number and size of the resonant panels in each car.


The combination of 25% with full sheets better than smaller pieces does pose a quandary, ha. Seems if we start w/ 25% and then decide to go further, the result would be broken up sheets. #life


----------



## Lanson

rton20s said:


> From the old testing, yes. I would probably go with either of those two. Though, Kolossus is more likely to fail (not that it will) in areas with high temperatures.
> 
> You might also consider Resonix. It hasn't been tested yet, but I've been talking with Nick throughout his process of developing the brand/selecting products and rolling the dice on his new CLD is likely a risk I would be willing to take.



I will vouch for Kolossus and say that temps are NOT going to be a concern with that product. I'm in Vegas, it gets hot as balls here, and I've put Knu in most of my builds for years now. I've even installed the stuff on the underside of a panel (so, exposed to the elements and exhaust heat) in the case of a trunk floor on a Durango, and 3 years later it looks exactly like it did prior.


That said:


I like Nick, I like what he does for us, and my next CLD purchase will probably be his product just because he's a cool dude and he gets my support. And he has nice foams coming so that's something Knu never focused on.


----------



## rton20s

fourthmeal said:


> I will vouch for Kolossus and say that temps are NOT going to be a concern with that product. I'm in Vegas, it gets hot as balls here, and I've put Knu in most of my builds for years now. I've even installed the stuff on the underside of a panel (so, exposed to the elements and exhaust heat) in the case of a trunk floor on a Durango, and 3 years later it looks exactly like it did prior.
> 
> 
> That said:
> 
> 
> I like Nick, I like what he does for us, and my next CLD purchase will probably be his product just because he's a cool dude and he gets my support. And he has nice foams coming so that's something Knu never focused on.


I'm pretty sure we've discussed the Kolossus issue before. I know you've had great results with it, and I have it in my own car. Beyond Chris' own heat testing, when you see him refer to knowing of a failure, he is referring to me. I had one piece fall off in one of my doors. It was a fairly narrow strip applied to the plastic door card, if I recall correctly. (It has been a while.)

Everything else seem solid 4+ years later. I guess I'll find out if I have any other issued next time I need to get into my doors or behind some panels. 

For what it is worth, I still have a stack of Kolossus in my garage. I'll likely finish it off before I order anything new.


----------



## St7_77

Vibraflex? Thoughts? Will it be in the new tests?


----------



## SkizeR

St7_77 said:


> Vibraflex? Thoughts? Will it be in the new tests?


A customer of mine previously used it in his doors before taking his car to me. I found it cracked into a bunch of pieces at the bottom of his door when the car got to me. He used a heat gun and cleaned the surface before installing it. That's my only experience with it.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Vibraflex will be in the new testing.


----------



## St7_77

SkizeR said:


> A customer of mine previously used it in his doors before taking his car to me. I found it cracked into a bunch of pieces at the bottom of his door when the car got to me. He used a heat gun and cleaned the surface before installing it. That's my only experience with it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I was wondering about that. Couldn't imagine how a brittle substance (at many temperatures) is a good idea.


----------



## tonka

Subscribed - to the forum! - and donated to meet the goal. Awesome work!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

tonka said:


> Subscribed - to the forum! - and donated to meet the goal. Awesome work!


Thanks! I got your message over at GoFundMe, I'll get in touch sometime this coming week.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

As stated above, we've reached the goal. I'm going to get some updates posted this sunday, unless I get called in to work again. Right now, I'm on call 7 days a week, and have been working that, out in 90-100+ degree temps, in a non air conditioned oven of a vehicle. I'm not going to sugar coat it, I'm not used to that. But the last week and a half I've acclimated a bit, and should be able to do more when I get home other than shower and pass out pretty quickly. I've dropped almost 10lbs in 2 weeks and its getting a little easier.


----------



## Devilman

Anyone used or heard of Silencer Inc. 3-in-1 deadener? Saw some guys talking about it on bookface and figured I'd ask about it here. 
I'm using kolossus on my truck as well as some vibrosolutions products and TMS mlv. I'll look when I'm home tomorrow at the Velcro I got, Don recommended it to me and I purchased it off amazon if I remember correctly.


----------



## SkizeR

Devilman said:


> Anyone used or heard of Silencer Inc. 3-in-1 deadener? Saw some guys talking about it on bookface and figured I'd ask about it here.
> I'm using kolossus on my truck as well as some vibrosolutions products and TMS mlv. I'll look when I'm home tomorrow at the Velcro I got, Don recommended it to me and I purchased it off amazon if I remember correctly.


Literally, the same exact stuff as Soundskins and Sonic Barrier.

also, shameless plug: here is the exact same velcro Don was selling.. https://resonixsoundsolutions.com/product/resonix-vinyl-compatible-velcro/


----------



## YeahWhatever

Devilman said:


> I'll look when I'm home tomorrow at the Velcro I got, Don recommended it to me and I purchased it off amazon if I remember correctly.


Can you share the link for that Velcro please.


----------



## ToNasty

He did


----------



## GreatLaBroski

Any updates?


----------



## rton20s

GreatLaBroski said:


> Any updates?


I talked to Chris last night. We will be meeting up this weekend to work on the test rig. Mostly because he needs some extra bodies to help move some heavy and unwieldy parts into position.


----------



## GreatLaBroski

Nice, I'm excited to see the wheels turning.


----------



## rton20s

I talked with Chris again last night and he is having issues with his DIYMA account. He asked me to post a quick update. 

"Except for the little finishing bits and pieces, ie latch system, the whole rig will be physically finished by next Friday."


----------



## VP2015

Glad to see Chris is close to starting the new round of testing.
I assume Chris will be posting on here soon.
Will it be possible to send a sample or two to Chris for inclusion in the testing?


----------



## rton20s

Chris hasn’t been able to log in, but here is a quick status update on the test rig build as of Wednesday night.


----------



## SkizeR

can i make a request. maybe go for a piece of metal that has a similar resonant frequency of your typical car door?


----------



## VP2015

rton20s said:


> Chris hasn’t been able to log in, but here is a quick status update on the test rig build as of Wednesday night.


Is that opening in front of the two speakers where the sheet metal will go?
If so, what is the size of that opening?
Does Chris have plenty of pieces of metal that size to use for testing different dampening materials?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

VP2015 said:


> Is that opening in front of the two speakers where the sheet metal will go?
> If so, what is the size of that opening?
> Does Chris have plenty of pieces of metal that size to use for testing different dampening materials?


That opening is where the mounting plates for the metal sheets will go. There will be a MDF base plate, with a 1/4" thick steel back plate bonded and bolted to the wood piece, and a 1/4" thick steel front clamping plate. I will use a couple of different thickness sheets, as well as possibly an aluminum sheet. I may also test a wood panel (since people like to use CLD on wood thinking it works the same). I will only have one of each thickness panel, to reduce variables. It will have a steel mounting baffle, alignment pins, and will be torqued to the same level for every test. 

I will also later on be able to test barriers (MLV/Lead).


----------



## nyquistrate

rton20s said:


>


Forget all of this really useful testing. Is that a full suit of plate mail armor in the background?


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

nyquistrate said:


> Forget all of this really useful testing. Is that a full suit of plate mail armor in the background?


Haha. I wish it was legit. Its just a prop my sister n law bought for a birthday party they threw for my mother in law.


----------



## VP2015

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> *That opening is where the mounting plates for the metal sheets will go. * There will be a MDF base plate, with a 1/4" thick steel back plate bonded and bolted to the wood piece, and a 1/4" thick steel front clamping plate. *I will use a couple of different thickness sheets, as well as possibly an aluminum sheet. * I may also test a wood panel (since people like to use CLD on wood thinking it works the same). * I will only have one of each thickness panel*, to reduce variables. It will have a steel mounting baffle, alignment pins, and will be torqued to the same level for every test.
> 
> I will also later on be able to test barriers (MLV/Lead).


So if *"one of each thickness panel"* refers to the steel (or aluminum) sheet to which the acoustic material will be affixed, that means you will have to apply (i.e.: glue) each sample material being tested to that metal sheet, then remove it after the test is complete... correct?

If so, what type of adhesive would you be able/willing to use (for anything that isn't peel & stick)? e.g.: 3M 90?

What is the approx. size (width x length) of that sheet? 
Based on the size of looks like roughly 14" x 18"? 

I have a couple materials (which you probably have not seen before) that I would like you to test, when you have time.

Thanks again for being so determined (aka: 'stubborn') on this project!


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

VP2015 said:


> So if *"one of each thickness panel"* refers to the steel (or aluminum) sheet to which the acoustic material will be affixed, that means you will have to apply (i.e.: glue) each sample material being tested to that metal sheet, then remove it after the test is complete... correct?
> 
> If so, what type of adhesive would you be able/willing to use (for anything that isn't peel & stick)? e.g.: 3M 90?
> 
> What is the approx. size (width x length) of that sheet?
> Based on the size of looks like roughly 14" x 18"?
> 
> I have a couple materials (which you probably have not seen before) that I would like you to test, when you have time.
> 
> Thanks again for being so determined (aka: 'stubborn') on this project!


For the first new run of tests I'll mostly be focusing on CLD type materials. However, after those are done, I will likely get some more panels to test other materials, such as spray on materials, etc. 

The total opening size is 14x17. There will be two test opening sizes, 11x11 and 12x15. This is so there is enough room to solidly clamp the material. It'll be much more clear why once I get the metal cut. I'll be sending the measurements over for that today.

The reason for the smaller 11x11 size is so that all available CLD's can have a fair 25% coverage test using a single, uncut sheet. The larger size will show why its important to use single uncut sheets whenever possible, and will show the disadvantages of some products based on their offered sizing.


----------



## VP2015

SkizeR said:


> can i make a request. maybe go for a piece of metal that has a similar resonant frequency of your typical car door?


*This brings up an important point: different sheet metal parts of any given car (or different cars) have different resonant frequencies, and different amplitudes.*
Without taking some measurements *[edit: of the resonances in the vehicle] *before applying any dampeners, it's a shot in the dark.
This assumes the intended goal is more about reducing external noise, as opposed to getting better speaker response.


----------



## Theslaking

VP2015 said:


> Without taking some measurements before applying any dampeners, it's a shot in the dark


He does. 

Secondly its comparing cld to cld so it doesn't matter what the resonant frequency of the panel is as long as it's in the same realm as automobile metal. Each piece of cld will be asked to dampen in the same exact scenario so you can still compare apples to apples.


----------



## VP2015

Theslaking said:


> VP2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Without taking some measurements *[edit: of the resonances in the vehicle] *before applying any dampeners, it's a shot in the dark....
> 
> 
> 
> He does.
> 
> Secondly its comparing cld to cld so it doesn't matter what the resonant frequency of the panel is *as long as it's in the same realm as automobile metal. *Each piece of cld will be asked to dampen in the same exact scenario so you can still compare apples to apples.
Click to expand...

You can compare apples to apples but the point is, every dampener has a dampening curve that peaks at a certain frequency (which varies with temperature), and every piece of sheet metal in a car a peak resonance frequency. As an example, the peak resonance frequency of a typical floorpan is not the same as a door panel.

Any given material is most effective if its peak dampening frequency coincides with the peak resonance frequency of the particular piece of sheet metal to which it is to be applied. Lower frequency resonances are typically more difficult to control, but also aren't a problem if the sheet metal doesn't resonate at those lower frequencies.

Manufacturers spend quite a bit of money conducting controlled acoustic testing to make those determinations, which enables them to apply 'just enough' dampening in the areas where it's needed to achieve the acoustics that the budget for that vehicle will allow.

While end-users can't do that, it is instructive to make test runs with several mics less than an inch away from different parts of a vehicle. Since sound amplitude diminishes greatly with distance, that provides a great deal of isolation and helps create a profile of the areas that need the most treatment, and at which frequencies.

FYI: most compact mics are omni-directional, but it's easy to make them much more directional simply by wrapping them in a tube made of 1/8" mass loaded vinyl.

PS: For more info, check this white paper:
*Understanding DampingTechniques for Noise and Vibration Control*


----------



## rton20s

When you find *anyone* outside of OEMs willing to not only go to those lengths with test measurements, and actually apply enough sound treatment material (damping or otherwise) to mitigate the issues, you let us know.  Even OEMs don't go that far, as they are constantly having to balance so many aspects of vehicle development (cost, comfort, weight, etc.)

As mentioned, these tests are going to provide an apples:apples comparison within the constraints of the test parameters/environment. This is far more than anyone I am aware of in the car audio community has done. Is it going to match ANY specific vehicle condition out there? No. Should it be enough data for most anyone interested in viewing and understanding the results to make a more educated/informed decision when selecting sound treatment products? Absolutely. 

Also... *DAMPER / DAMPING*. 



VP2015 said:


> You can compare apples to apples but the point is, every dampener has a dampening curve that peaks at a certain frequency (which varies with temperature), and every piece of sheet metal in a car a peak resonance frequency. As an example, the peak resonance frequency of a typical floorpan is not the same as a door panel.
> 
> Any given material is most effective if its peak dampening frequency coincides with the peak resonance frequency of the particular piece of sheet metal to which it is to be applied. Lower frequency resonances are typically more difficult to control, but also aren't a problem if the sheet metal doesn't resonate at those lower frequencies.
> 
> Manufacturers spend quite a bit of money conducting controlled acoustic testing to make those determinations, which enables them to apply 'just enough' dampening in the areas where it's needed to achieve the acoustics that the budget for that vehicle will allow.
> 
> While end-users can't do that, it is instructive to make test runs with several mics less than an inch away from different parts of a vehicle. Since sound amplitude diminishes greatly with distance, that provides a great deal of isolation and helps create a profile of the areas that need the most treatment, and at which frequencies.
> 
> FYI: most compact mics are omni-directional, but it's easy to make them much more directional simply by wrapping them in a tube made of 1/8" mass loaded vinyl.
> 
> PS: For more info, check this white paper:
> *Understanding DampingTechniques for Noise and Vibration Control*


----------



## VP2015

rton20s said:


> When you find *anyone* outside of OEMs willing to not only go to those lengths with test measurements, and actually apply enough sound treatment material (damping or otherwise) to mitigate the issues, you let us know.  Even OEMs don't go that far...


Oh, yeah, OEMs absolutely do, and I've seen some of their test rigs.

As you yourself stated...



rton20s said:


> ...they are constantly having to balance so many aspects of vehicle development (cost, comfort, weight, etc.),


...which sounds very similar to what I said:


VP2015 said:


> ...which enables them to apply 'just enough' dampening in the areas where it's needed to achieve the acoustics [goal] that the budget for that vehicle will allow.





rton20s said:


> As mentioned, these tests are going to provide an apples:apples comparison within the constraints of the test parameters/environment. This is far more than anyone I am aware of in the car audio community has done. Is it going to match ANY specific vehicle condition out there? No. Should it be enough data for most anyone interested in viewing and understanding the results to make a more educated/informed decision when selecting sound treatment products? Absolutely.


*I'm not criticizing the testing. 
Anyone who is interested in this should be very grateful that Chris is devoting so much of his time to this effort. 
It's practically the only way end-users will ever get unbiased test results about products like these.

And I also didn't come here to argue, which as it always does, ends up cluttering up a thread with non-helpful gobbly-de-****. *

But* I *am* saying that if anyone wants to know how much of what material needs to be applied where, they should measure their vehicle's resonance frequencies & amplitudes at different locations* before they start adding a bunch of weight in the form of foil-faced rubber sheets, which may well be the most cost-effective solution for some acoustic problems, but maybe not so cost-effective for others.

BTW:


rton20s said:


> Also... *DAMPER / DAMPING*.


_"A dampener is someone or something that dampens. So damper and dampener can both refer to one that deadens sound vibrations."_
https://grammarist.com/usage/dampen-damper-dampener/
Anyone can use whatever terms they want, but* in the most common usage, a "damper" is used to restrict airflow in a duct.*
A "dampener" or "deadener" is used to reduce unwanted vibrations.


----------



## VP2015

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> For the first new run of tests I'll mostly be focusing on CLD type materials. However, after those are done, I will likely get some more panels to test other materials, such as spray on materials, etc....


OK, great. 
Let me know when you are ready for that. 
I'll send you something to test.

FWIW, what I have in mind is actually a Constrained Layer Dampener, but it will be a lot thicker than those you're familiar with.


----------



## dquangt

I'm about to install a system iny car, without having to wait for the new round of testing what is the current recommendation? 

Wish I would have bought more sds, as it is after my last install I only have enough to do like one door. ?


----------



## Turb0Yoda

dquangt said:


> I'm about to install a system iny car, without having to wait for the new round of testing what is the current recommendation?
> 
> Wish I would have bought more sds, as it is after my last install I only have enough to do like one door. ?


https://resonixsoundsolutions.com(shilling for Sk LOL. I have small doubt his stuff will be up in the top 3 at the least)

Kno Knoise - Kolossus Edition Sound Deadener

This was... 2nd or 3rd in the first round of testing.


----------



## dquangt

Turb0Yoda said:


> dquangt said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm about to install a system iny car, without having to wait for the new round of testing what is the current recommendation?
> 
> Wish I would have bought more sds, as it is after my last install I only have enough to do like one door. ?
> 
> 
> 
> https://resonixsoundsolutions.com(shilling for Sk LOL. I have small doubt his stuff will be up in the top 3 at the least)
> 
> Kno Knoise - Kolossus Edition Sound Deadener
> 
> This was... 2nd or 3rd in the first round of testing.
Click to expand...

Sounds good. I may give Resonix a try.


----------



## Holmz

VP2015 said:


> ...
> But* I *am* saying that if anyone wants to know how much of what material needs to be applied where, they should measure ...*
> ...


^I have to agree^, but then the question is how to measure it?


----------



## Theslaking

And I'm still saying that it doesn't matter for this type of test. It's not "How cld reacts on certain panels, with certain stimulus, in certain circumstances. It's just simply how cld reacts in the exact same situation compared to another piece of cld. 

I do think pointing it out for those that want to further their unwanted sound mitigation abilities is a good thing.


----------



## VP2015

Holmz said:


> ^I have to agree^, but then the question is how to measure it?


The way I do it is described in *post 164*

I will mention again that the closer the mic to any given source of noise, the more it isolates that noise source. The mic mounts must isolate them from structure-borne interference. Memory foam works pretty well. Fortunately, most of small USB mics don't have much mass. I use USB mics because it makes it easier to make simultaneous measurements (8 at a time). 

The other thing I left out of that post is that once you've mic'd up your vehicle, you need to make test runs over different road surfaces at different speeds. Once you do that, you'll have a pretty good characterization of the noise problem.

Also read the white paper referenced in that post. It's only 6 pages of content. It's helps most people understand how a constrained layer damper actually works (which is really the same as any other composite material, i.e.: two hard "skins" separated by a lower density core... same as a piece of ordinary foam-core poster board).

Once you do that, it becomes obvious why thicker materials have a large "leverage" advantage compared to ~2mm thick butyl, especially at lower frequencies.



Theslaking said:


> And I'm still saying that it doesn't matter for this type of test. It's not "How cld reacts on certain panels, with certain stimulus, in certain circumstances. It's just simply how cld reacts in the exact same situation compared to another piece of cld.


*Strictly speaking, that is true. It's also true that I have not been disagreeing with that, either.* I've have not been suggesting that the new test won't be apples-to-apples. The new test will be an apples-to-apples test yielding data over a certain frequency range (20Hz - 1,100 Hz in the previous test).

But the *applicability* of that data to control a noise problem depends on how much of what to use and where. 

Not all noise control problems are solved most cost-effectively by Constrained Layer Damping. And even if structural damping is required, the choice of the "best" one to use is not just which one is most effective (in absolute terms), but which one is most effective relative to cost and weight.

Given the orientation of this forum, I want to point out that my focus (and that of my advice) is overall vehicle noise reduction, rather than making powerful speakers sound better.


----------



## jdunk54nl

VP2015 said:


> The way I do it is described in *post 164*
> 
> I will mention again that the closer the mic to any given source of noise, the more it isolates that noise source. The mic mounts must isolate them from structure-borne interference. Memory foam works pretty well. Fortunately, most of small USB mics don't have much mass. I use USB mics because it makes it easier to make simultaneous measurements (8 at a time).
> 
> The other thing I left out of that post is that once you've mic'd up your vehicle, you need to make test runs over different road surfaces at different speeds. Once you do that, you'll have a pretty good characterization of the noise problem.
> 
> Also read the white paper referenced in that post. It's only 6 pages of content. It's helps most people understand how a constrained layer damper actually works (which is really the same as any other composite material, i.e.: two hard "skins" separated by a lower density core... same as a piece of ordinary foam-core poster board).
> 
> Once you do that, it becomes obvious why thicker materials have a large "leverage" advantage compared to ~2mm thick butyl, especially at lower frequencies.



While all of this is good, it is beyond the scope of most people in car audio. I would like to know how many extreme competitors actually go through this process. If you do not have the equipment up front for this, as most only have one microphone, this quickly does not become cost/time effective compared to just placing CLD that seems to be one of the top performers in a controlled test. I know if I were to do this with my one microphone, it would take me a few days longer, is that time spent really beneficial than just spending another $100 on extra CLD/MLV/CCF/Thinsulate? If I purchased 7 more microphones, now I am out $700 plus time. I could nearly double layer all of the CLD/MLV/CCF in my truck for $700.




VP2015 said:


> The way I do it is described in *post 164*
> 
> *Strictly speaking, that is true. It's also true that I have not been disagreeing with that, either.* I've have not been suggesting that the new test won't be apples-to-apples. The new test will be an apples-to-apples test yielding data over a certain frequency range (20Hz - 1,100 Hz in the previous test).
> 
> But the *applicability* of that data to control a noise problem depends on how much of what to use and where.
> 
> Not all noise control problems are solved most cost-effectively by Constrained Layer Damping. And even if structural damping is required, the choice of the "best" one to use is not just which one is most effective (in absolute terms), but which one is most effective relative to cost and weight.
> 
> Given the orientation of this forum, I want to point out that my focus (and that of my advice) is overall vehicle noise reduction, rather than making powerful speakers sound better.



I, as well as most on here, also think that this CLD test is just one part to many sound deadening steps. To achieve overall noise reduction we need to follow the CLD/MLV/CCF/Thinsulate approaches that have been established. From my understanding, CLD isn't really being used to "quiet" the vehicle, just stop panel vibrations. To quiet the vehicle we need to do the 100% MLV/Thinsulate step as well.


----------



## VP2015

jdunk54nl said:


> ...From my understanding, CLD isn't really being used to "quiet" the vehicle, just stop panel vibrations. To quiet the vehicle we need to do the 100% MLV/Thinsulate step as well...


What do you think vibrations propagating through the air are? 

Thinsulate is not even close to being one of the most cost-effective acoustic insulations, especially not in applications where having a lot of thermal insulation is also desirable. I won't bother mentioning examples because (based on past experience) I doubt you're really interested in them anyway, because you already believe you "know" what works and what doesn't.

I use USB Clip-on *Omnidirectional Condenser Microphones, which cost about $14-$15 each*. It really only takes five or six, although more is better. 
I guess your next complaint will be that this type of mic isn't "good enough" but in fact, the only real drawback is they are omnidirectional, which is easily changed using the method I mentioned in a previous post. The consistency is excellent because the exact same mic is used in the exact same location & orientation before & after treatment.

As I mentioned before, it always seems to turn into an argument between people like *you* who presume to know what will work best without actually having tested much, if anything, yourself, and those like me who have done that (along with more product research than you would believe). I guess that's the difference between amateur and professional. So, I'll let you get back to your previously established presumptions.


----------



## Lou Frasier2

VP2015 said:


> What do you think vibrations propagating through the air are?
> 
> Thinsulate is not even close to being one of the most cost-effective acoustic insulations, especially not in applications where having a lot of thermal insulation is also desirable. I won't bother mentioning examples because (based on past experience) I doubt you're really interested in them anyway, because you already believe you "know" what works and what doesn't.
> 
> I use USB Clip-on *Omnidirectional Condenser Microphones, which cost about $14-$15 each*. It really only takes five or six, although more is better.
> I guess your next complaint will be that this type of mic isn't "good enough" but in fact, the only real drawback is they are omnidirectional, which is easily changed using the method I mentioned in a previous post. The consistency is excellent because the exact same mic is used in the exact same location & orientation before & after treatment.
> 
> As I mentioned before, it always seems to turn into an argument between people like *you* who presume to know what will work best without actually having tested much, if anything, yourself, and those like me who have done that (along with more product research than you would believe). I guess that's the difference between amateur and professional. So, I'll let you get back to your previously established presumptions.


did you not get the part where he said from his understanding?no need to come off so harsh


----------



## dgage

Dude, you’re welcome to volunteer and put forth a testing methodology and see if people will donate to help you test some products. 

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL did CLD testing several years ago that were valuable and did provide valuable consumer information. Based on that testing and the different products now, he offered to test some more products using an improved testing methodology. He has taken his valuable time and money to do some testing that will benefit the DIYMA community. Will it answer every question we want/need, no, but it will definitely help with which are the better CLD materials on the market.

I am grateful for the time and effort TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL has put into the CLD testing he has proposed.

If you have a different set of criteria to test, by all means start a new thread as the more information people have, the better. As you said, the study of acoustics is very complex and no one test will answer the myriad of questions we have or some we don’t even know need asking.


----------



## jdunk54nl

VP2015 said:


> What do you think vibrations propagating through the air are?
> 
> Thinsulate is not even close to being one of the most cost-effective acoustic insulations, especially not in applications where having a lot of thermal insulation is also desirable. I won't bother mentioning examples because (based on past experience) I doubt you're really interested in them anyway, because you already believe you "know" what works and what doesn't.
> 
> I use USB Clip-on *Omnidirectional Condenser Microphones, which cost about $14-$15 each*. It really only takes five or six, although more is better.
> I guess your next complaint will be that this type of mic isn't "good enough" but in fact, the only real drawback is they are omnidirectional, which is easily changed using the method I mentioned in a previous post. The consistency is excellent because the exact same mic is used in the exact same location & orientation before & after treatment.
> 
> As I mentioned before, it always seems to turn into an argument between people like *you* who presume to know what will work best without actually having tested much, if anything, yourself, and those like me who have done that (along with more product research than you would believe). I guess that's the difference between amateur and professional. So, I'll let you get back to your previously established presumptions.



This felt personal and it is my first interaction with you.... Maybe you didn't mean it to be personal but you used the word "you" a lot which definitely portrays the original writer, or me in this instance.

I wasn't disagreeing that your method would *probably* yield better results, which is why I said it is good. But your method is still beyond what most people are willing to do and for how much of an improvement over the standard 25%+ coverage of CLD (less than 6db compared to 100% coverage according to the paper you linked)? Will your method of measuring first result in 0db difference compared to 100%? or 5db difference? I also say probably because to actually figure that out, we would need to have a very controlled test, using the same exact car and applying the CLD with the "standard" method and measuring results compared to applying with your methods results. We would have to use the same car, as you stated, all vehicles are different. This would be very hard in reality so we go to tests like TS2F's CLD test and Justin Zazzi's MLV test. 

You have to admit that if you just use one microphone this is going to take some time to do all of the tests. If you were to buy more microphones, even at $15 a piece that is $100. Is that $100 and less time invested better spent on other sound deadening materials? A $100 buys ~15sqft more of Resonix Squares and minimal additional time when you are already applying it.

Also, while panel vibrations do contribute to vehicle noise, there have been quite a few tests with data (which I am sure you are aware based on your writings in this thread, so I won't bother linking them) that CLD alone does very little for sound reduction in vehicles when compared to other products. 

Even the "white paper" that you linked states that CLD isn't that effective at normal car temperatures of up to 40 degrees celsius. Also, that white paper does not go into any testing methodologies to achieve that data, so definitely is not a paper that I would be able to quote if I was writing a paper on dampening. It also says estimated noise reduction so those two things make me lean to these are theoretical values and never actually tested.

I'm a scientist by nature and career. Therefore I am always open to new data and my mind being changed. *But there is definitely an amount of diminishing returns that is happening with your microphone method. Which was my whole point.*

If you are Jennifer Renninger of E-A-R (a 3m company), then the facilities/materials are already there for you to do this type of testing and I am sure you would do it just because that is what you like to do. So it is time well spent.


----------



## Pathological_quest

Just gonna throw out a thank you for doing all these tests. It's extremely helpful to see these tests done in a close to real life situation. I get so sick of reading amazon reviews where everything is supposedly perfect. I'm about to do my first real audio build and you have definitely put me in the right direction for the first step of the build.


----------



## Lanson

So, how's the Amazon-sold Vibro Solution product?


Vibro-Black is 10 sq ft for $80, and 200mil, and its endorsed by the baddest (semi-famous) builder crew I know, Arclight. 



Honestly I've been burned a lot on brands I don't know for deadening, but it looks GREAT.


----------



## SkizeR

Lanson said:


> So, how's the Amazon-sold Vibro Solution product?
> 
> 
> Vibro-Black is 10 sq ft for $80, and 200mil, and its endorsed by the baddest (semi-famous) builder crew I know, Arclight.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly I've been burned a lot on brands I don't know for deadening, but it looks GREAT.


I have samples from their manufacturer from when I was still deciding on a manufacturer for ResoNix. Let's just say I only have samples. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Lanson

SkizeR said:


> I have samples from their manufacturer from when I was still deciding on a manufacturer for ResoNix. Let's just say I only have samples.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk



I'm slightly lost but also intrigued. Nick, Silent Coat is the company (with a new American name and now American manufacturing supply.) So, in your testing, did the product fail in some way? What product samples did you try?


----------



## rton20s

Work continues on the test rig. I plan on heading to Chris' place tonight to help out with some of the assembly.


----------



## Pathological_quest

I have some no name, industrial CLD that i could send in. Anybody have the address handy so my lazy ass doesn't have to dig for it?


----------



## rton20s

Pathological_quest said:


> I have some no name, industrial CLD that i could send in. Anybody have the address handy so my lazy ass doesn't have to dig for it?


I am not sure if Chris is accepting any samples yet, so I would wait to hear back from him. 

I did take a couple of photos the other night of the unfinished door to the test rig we were working on. The mic is only there for scale. I think the door alone is substantially larger than the entire test rig Chris previously built. On the far side you can see the first face has had a second layer green glued and screwed. 

We also determined that more substantial hinges are in order. (Even with a wheel to help support the strike side of the door.) So those will be purchased soon. 

This thing is going to be SOLID.


----------



## Boghog1

question, has there been any testing done on rates of coverage? 25% vs 50% etc...?


----------



## rton20s

Boghog1 said:


> question, has there been any testing done on rates of coverage? 25% vs 50% etc...?


Yes.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/262722-cld-testing-2-application-techniques.html


----------



## Dan750iL

Any guess as to when testing will begin?


----------



## rton20s

Dan750iL said:


> Any guess as to when testing will begin?


When the test rig is completed. 

Seriously though, Chris is getting close. We have been trying to get some stuff coordinated, but between our two schedules (and scheduling with some outside resources) things aren't moving as quickly as he had hoped. Chris is still making great progress on his own. The holidays certainly don't help the situation, but we still shouldn't be too far out from the first tests.


----------



## Pb82 Ronin

I for one am very pleased for round 2. The first round brought me to this forum. The 2nd round keeps me here. I appreciate the science behind the testing and happily say, "don't rush it."


----------



## SkizeR

anyone wanna be the bookie for betting on the results? lol


----------



## Lou Frasier2

SkizeR said:


> anyone wanna be the bookie for betting on the results? lol


I will, I live in South Africa and you can send all of your information to an email I will provide,


----------



## SkizeR

Lou Frasier2 said:


> I will, I live in South Africa and you can send all of your information to an email I will provide,


you got a nigerian cousin?


----------



## Lou Frasier2

yes, she lives in Thailand


----------



## rton20s

I went by Chris' place last night and we made some more progress on the test rig. Mostly just time on the drill press working on the clamping surfaces for the test panels. If all goes to plan, we should be getting a lot more done this coming Saturday. A couple of photos Chris posted on his FB page...

Steel plate clamping surface to be bolted to the enclosure.
MDF panel that the steel plate will be bolted to. (Center still need to be cut out.)
Chris inside of the test rig... for scale. The castors are now on and the enclosure handled Chris' weight like he wasn't even there.


----------



## Turb0Yoda

Chillin like a villain


----------



## Dan750iL

How is this going?


----------



## rton20s

Progress is being made. I go and help Chris whenever both of our schedules permit. He is also making progress on his own. He is about at the point now where all of the literal heavy lifting needs to be done. It is getting quite close. I will quote his FB post from the last couple times we worked on it together, Feb 1 being the latest. 

_Damping panels on the test enclosure. Sanding and sealing tomorrow, along with getting the end plates cut and prepped for the magnetic latches and hinges._










_A little bit over 1 Tool album later lol.......
Drilled and countersunk holes in the steel disks that the magnets will attract to to hold the lid closed. Drilled and sunk the holes for the magnets and disks in the panels that will serve as the end plates for the door and body. The steel disks stick out a bit because there will be an mlv gasket between the two panels. This gives a 0.026" gap between so they dont contact and shatter the neo magnets. Pull force on the magnets is 26lbs, but, that's when attached to a second identical magnet. I'm ordering a second set and doubling them to be sure it closes securely.
































_


----------



## ambesolman

@rton20s

Their new album is so good! Just saw them for the 12th time in atlanta a couple weeks ago. Thanks for all the work y’all are doing for this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk?


----------



## ThePie

Based on the current product list that is available. What would be the best recommendation for sound dampening / anti-vibration?

Also is the website with database and test results up?


----------



## SkizeR

I have results that show ResoNix Squares vs a previous top contender. I havent released that info out of hopes that this testing would have started sooner and it spoke for itself.


----------



## ThePie

I'm looking at getting a few squares of sound deadening foam to be cut into smaller pieces for inside of the vehicle trim pieces and glove box. What would be the best product for this?


----------



## SkizeR

ThePie said:


> I'm looking at getting a few squares of sound deadening foam to be cut into smaller pieces for inside of the vehicle trim pieces and glove box. What would be the best product for this?


If you're talking about products from ResoNix, FD1


----------



## rton20s

I'm helping @TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL build the new test rig. It is very near completion. "Soon" right @SkizeR?

In the mean time, I wouldn't hesitate to use/order ResoNix products.


----------



## SkizeR

im actually boxing up some ResoNix Squares, Rectangles, and my stash of SDS Tiles and Sheets to send to chris as i type this, along with the backed up orders i have.


----------



## rton20s

Since neither Chris nor I have posted updated pics lately, these were from Friday afternoon. I took my brother by there with me. He was shocked to see the effort being put into the construction of the test rig. To call the rig "substantial" would be a gross understatement.


----------



## SkizeR

20 ResoNix Squares, 4 ResoNix Rectangles, 1.5 packs of SDS Tiles, and 4 SDS Sheets inbound. Time to put my money where my mouth is.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## SkizeR

That large one in the back is coming your way Chris!









Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

That's a legit test rig. You guys should a make a video walkthrough explaining what the rig's purpose is, why it was designed that way, etc. Might be easier for people to find that info helpful. Just a suggestion.

Also, Nick mentioned me hosting the data on my site. I'm ok with doing that if that's something you guys want to do.


----------



## SkizeR

ErinH said:


> That's a legit test rig. You guys should a make a video walkthrough explaining what the rig's purpose is, why it was designed that way, etc. Might be easier for people to find that info helpful. Just a suggestion.
> 
> Also, Nick mentioned me hosting the data on my site. I'm ok with doing that if that's something you guys want to do.


I talked to chris about it. Hes down.


----------



## rton20s

ErinH said:


> That's a legit test rig. You guys should a make a video walkthrough explaining what the rig's purpose is, why it was designed that way, etc. Might be easier for people to find that info helpful. Just a suggestion.
> 
> Also, Nick mentioned me hosting the data on my site. I'm ok with doing that if that's something you guys want to do.


Thanks Erin. That would all be up to Chris. 

I think the purpose is pretty well understood... Pissing off just about everyone with any sort of vested interest car audio sound treatment. 

He and I talked about it the other day, and I believe he plans on doing a walk through video as an introduction of sorts. I'm picturing some live shots of the completed rig as well as some voice over work with still shots of different points during construction. 

What's nice is that even with that 600 lbs of weight stacked on top, the rig is actually pretty easy for a single person to maneuver.


----------



## Theslaking

SkizeR said:


> Time to put my money where my mouth is.


SDS products have been made in a while and butyl does have a shelf life. Just suggesting, scientifically, it will no longer be apples to apples.

Just so anyone reading this knows Resonix is every bit as good as SDS products in real world application. I would love to see the scientific comparison to the company that all standards have been measured against.


----------



## SkizeR

Theslaking said:


> SDS products have been made in a while and butyl does have a shelf life. Just suggesting, scientifically, it will no longer be apples to apples.
> 
> Just so anyone reading this knows Resonix is every bit as good as SDS products in real world application. I would love to see the scientific comparison to the company that all standards have been measured against.


The shelf life of a good butyl for CLD is about 5 years. I got these 12 months ago. That said, mine has also been sitting on my shelf for about a year, so it evens out. but if you want to see measurements of when it was only a few months old vs ResoNix when i first got a sample of our current Squares, i have that data as well from a test rig very similar to the old test rig that chris used.


----------



## rton20s

Theslaking said:


> SDS products have been made in a while and butyl does have a shelf life. Just suggesting, scientifically, it will no longer be apples to apples.
> 
> Just so anyone reading this knows Resonix is every bit as good as SDS products in real world application. I would love to see the scientific comparison to the company that all standards have been measured against.


We will be able to test this to some degree. I believe @SkizeR has the very last batch of SDS sent out. I have some SDS that is several years older. We should be able to do an AB comparison of what should be "identical" materials with the only variable being time.

Edit: Just confirmed, the SDS tiles I have are from April 2014.


----------



## SkizeR

rton20s said:


> We will be able to test this to some degree. I believe @SkizeR has the very last batch of SDS sent out. I have some SDS that is several years older. We should be able to do an AB comparison of what should be "identical" materials with the only variable being time.


yup. mine was his last shipment from what i understand. :,/


----------



## Theslaking

SkizeR said:


> The shelf life of a good butyl for CLD is about 5 years.


I didn't realize it was that long. I was thinking a year maybe two. 

I have one of the last as well. Got 1 box left. The rope is drying up a bit. If I knead it into a ball it goes back to normal.



rton20s said:


> We will be able to test this to some degree. I believe @SkizeR has the very last batch of SDS sent out. I have some SDS that is several years older. We should be able to do an AB comparison of what should be "identical" materials with the only variable being time.
> 
> Edit: Just confirmed, the SDS tiles I have are from April 2014.


You should absolutely do this. Degrading over time is an important factor. It be nice to see. However butyl does not lose much of it's properties in use. It just hardens a bit sitting idle. If it's allowed to expand/contract and is exposed to air moisture I'm sure (from butyl roofing products experience) that it keeps it's pliability and form for many years.

If I leave a roll of butyl seam tape on my storage shelf for a couple years it won't stick anymore. However if I have to pull up a seam on a flat roof for patch work that tape can be reused if it doesn't get dirty.


----------



## SkizeR

Theslaking said:


> I didn't realize it was that long. I was thinking a year maybe two.
> 
> I have one of the last as well. Got 1 box left. The rope is drying up a bit. If I knead it into a ball it goes back to normal.
> 
> 
> 
> You should absolutely do this. Degrading over time is an important factor. It be nice to see. However butyl does not lose much of it's properties in use. It just hardens a bit sitting idle. If it's allowed to expand/contract and is exposed to air moisture I'm sure (from butyl roofing products experience) that it keeps it's pliability and form for many years.
> 
> If I leave a roll of butyl seam tape on my storage shelf for a couple years it won't stick anymore. However if I have to pull up a seam on a flat roof for patch work that tape can be reused if it doesn't get dirty.


yeah, SDS's butyl rope was never really that good tbh, and mine always dried up. Our rope has a shelf life "of two years, but thats being extremely conservative" according to our manufacturer.


----------



## ThePie

SkizeR said:


> If you're talking about products from ResoNix, FD1


Could be products from any company. Just looking for good sound deadening for trunk, doors, and panels. Also some some foam for between trim pieces. 
ResoNix Sound Solutions – Premium Automotive Sound Treatment Solutions
Sound Deadening
Dynamat.com | Dynamat Car Audio Products
NVX Sound Damping
All Products : Ballistic, Sound Damping Material
Boom Mat Sound Damping Materials | Design Engineering Inc

Does anyone have any recommendations?


----------



## Theslaking

Every product from Resonix is top tier. You likely can't do better in any area. 

However you can get good enough from other companies. Dynamat Extreme is an ok CLD. There's lots of foams that can stop rattles. TM soundproofing sells an ok mlv.

I now support Resonix because the owner's personal touch is an invaluable asset to car audio and the small business model.


----------



## ThePie

Theslaking said:


> Every product from Resonix is top tier. You likely can't do better in any area.
> 
> However you can get good enough from other companies. Dynamat Extreme is an ok CLD. There's lots of foams that can stop rattles. TM soundproofing sells an ok mlv.
> 
> I now support Resonix because the owner's personal touch is an invaluable asset to car audio and the small business model.


How is Resonix's support and email responsiveness? Is there a specific person that I should be in contact with for questions? It's been a few days since I last heard from them.


----------



## Theslaking

Typically awesome. Realize though, NY is in an official state of emergency.

The owner is diyma member Skizer.


----------



## dgage

Sound Deadening Showdown (SDS) started by comparing different sound deadening products and approaches to controlling noise in a car. After testing a bunch of products SDS came out with their own line of sound deadening products, which were considered to be top tier by most on DIYMA. SDS closed abruptly last year and Skizer (Nick Apicella of Apicella Auto Sound) started Resonix to fill the void of SDS in terms of products and a website with effective installation information. Nick posted some of the product search and testing he went through before identifying his product offerings and it was quite extensive and time consuming for him.


----------



## SkizeR

ThePie said:


> How is Resonix's support and email responsiveness? Is there a specific person that I should be in contact with for questions? It's been a few days since I last heard from them.


I am ResoNix. i just saw this and went to check and realized my email was logged out on my phone and havent gotten anything to my phone. Will respond to you shortly. 

That said, this is just a side business for me and is second in priority to my shop, Apicella Auto Sound. Its hard to find time to focus on it. I might have to hire someone. ughhhhhh


----------



## CX5_Clubber

Removed


----------



## RockitFX

Are there any testing results available yet? Thanks!


----------



## rton20s

RockitFX said:


> Are there any testing results available yet? Thanks!


Not yet, but Chris is getting really close. He had a bit of a setback in recovery after his ankle surgery which has delayed completion of the test rig a bit. Based on my last conversations with him, it looks like some shakedown runs of the rig could take place this weekend.


----------



## RockitFX

rton20s said:


> Not yet, but Chris is getting really close. He had a bit of a setback in recovery after his ankle surgery which has delayed completion of the test rig a bit. Based on my last conversations with him, it looks like some shakedown runs of the rig could take place this weekend.


Awesome, thanks!


----------



## Weigel21

Still (impatiently patiently 😅) awaiting the testing to begin and results to be posted.


----------



## SkizeR

I'm about to build my own rig on a car door and start testing. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## listlss

Can't wait for the testing to begin so I know what CLD to buy for the whole floor of my AE86. Patience is a virtue and let's see how long I can weight before I splurge


----------



## Weigel21

SkizeR said:


> I'm about to build my own rig on a car door and start testing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


 That'd be awesome, two rigs testing. Be interesting to see how their rig is setup and if/how much results differ using the same product between theirs and your car door setup.


----------



## rton20s

I haven't talked to Chris in a couple of weeks. When we last talked, he was going to order some additional locking latches to assist in better securing the door. I think other than that the rig was about complete and ready for testing to commence. 

I do know he had to put testing on hold temporarily because he had a pretty big undertaking in replacing the entire A/C system in his car. I'll try and reach out to him this week to see if there is anything he needs help with to get the testing started.


----------



## SkizeR

Tbh, ive kinda given up on expecting to see pretty complete test results from that rig within the next few years. This is why i ordered a bunch of stuff to do my own. It just sucks that people may take it as biased since i own ResoNix.


----------



## Weigel21

I'm sure many who don't know you will, but many who have been members of this forum for a while will likely believe the results without suspicion.


----------



## SkizeR

Weigel21 said:


> I'm sure many who don't know you will, but many who have been members of this forum for a while will likely believe the results without suspicion.


Id film it, so there's not much to not believe but im sure some will try to pick it apart over miniscule BS lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Turb0Yoda

Make an alias by the name of RezikS..

(joke obviously)


----------



## SkizeR

Turb0Yoda said:


> Make an alias by the name of RezikS..
> 
> (joke obviously)


Holy ****.. cannot believe how close that is to ResoNix lol


----------



## Turb0Yoda

hahahaha just noticed that as well.


----------



## Bottombunk

Im about to order resonix and try it out. Especially since its owner is a big diyma contributor.


----------



## Weigel21

Bottombunk said:


> Im about to order resonix and try it out. Especially since its owner is a big diyma contributor.



I'm sure it's a solid product, depending upon testing results, I may order some in the future after I run out of the Kno Knoise Kolossus I have.


----------



## Bottombunk

I got the door kit and a full box of squares. Ill put in my bmw first. Then likely scoop up a batch for my miata. Or vice versa.


----------



## rob feature

How's this coming along? 👂


----------



## rob feature

SkizeR said:


> Tbh, ive kinda given up on expecting to see pretty complete test results from that rig within the next few years. This is why i ordered a bunch of stuff to do my own. It just sucks that people may take it as biased since i own ResoNix.


Take it as biased? It would be biased. Not that you would intentionally throw results, but even if you went as far as you could to make it fair, if you test your own products against others, it will never be acknowledged as 'fair'. I have no doubts that you make the finest sound deadening products available, and if in need would come straight to you, but independent testing it wouldn't be.


----------



## rton20s

rob feature said:


> How's this coming along? 👂


I spoke briefly with Chris on Saturday night. Sunday was his last weekend day off before returning to a 60+ hrs work week. He planned to have the test rig finished then.


----------



## SkizeR

rton20s said:


> I spoke briefly with Chris on Saturday night. Sunday was his last weekend day off before returning to a 60+ hrs work week. He planned to have the test rig finished then.


Aka, this test will probably never happen. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## matt81

Is this thread officially dead, or should we be expecting test results anytime soon? "Asking for a friend"


----------



## SkizeR

matt81 said:


> Is this thread officially dead, or should we be expecting test results anytime soon? "Asking for a friend"


I thought it was too, but chris just seemed to get the rig finished. Join the Facebook group "The Deadening"

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


----------



## matt81

SkizeR said:


> I thought it was too, but chris just seemed to get the rig finished. Join the Facebook group "The Deadening"
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Thanks for the heads up. 

I actually had a fellow user recommend that I join that group yesterday, on a thread I started. It was concerning any experience or knowledge with gladen's aero dampening material. 

Btw, once those custom cut acrylic rings I recently purchased from you show up in the mail, I'll be sure to let you know


----------



## NoTraction

I used Dyna Xtreme based on the results of the last round of testing and needing to save weight. Too bad CLD tiles are no longer being made. Have a dozen or so left over.


----------



## rob feature

SkizeR said:


> I thought it was too, but chris just seemed to get the rig finished. Join the Facebook group "The Deadening"


Ah jeez, now we gotta go to facebook for this? That's a dealbreaker. Maybe somebody will post up results here one of these days.


----------



## NoTraction

rob feature said:


> Ah jeez, now we gotta go to facebook for this? That's a dealbreaker. Maybe somebody will post up results here one of these days.


Of course we will


----------



## rton20s

rob feature said:


> Ah jeez, now we gotta go to facebook for this? That's a dealbreaker. Maybe somebody will post up results here one of these days.


Chris created the FB group to have a place to post the data outside of a dying forum. He will also be posting videos of all testing on his Youtube account. 

That said, I am sure all of the data will get cross posted here and on car audio junkies.


----------



## preston

I don't think this forum is dying. I click on new posts 2-3 times a day and there is always something going on.


----------



## SkizeR

preston said:


> I don't think this forum is dying. I click on new posts 2-3 times a day and there is always something going on.


It ain't dying because its already dead. Also, activity doesnt mean its not dead


----------



## Theslaking

If you ask a question on here it still gets answered intelligently, eventually almost all of the time. That's better than almost everywhere else on the internet related to car audio. 

All the nonsense in-between the question and answer is unfortunately just the way of the public world we live in now.

It's not this site. It's the internet.


----------



## preston

This forum may be dead but its still three times as active as CAJ. 

But yeah I'm bummed that forums seem to be dying all over the place. I used to hang out on car forums all the time and learned A LOT . But now they are also very dead. I recently picked up a 2006 300c (building the audio now) and there is a ton of information on multiple forums, but almost nothing new posted in the last 5 years, and I cant' even get the automatic registration process to give me access. 

I've been told everyone is on facehole book and instagram, but neither of those platforms is very good at back and forth or especially archiving older discussions. 

Anyway, nothing to do with CLD testing.


----------



## SkizeR

Theslaking said:


> If you ask a question on here it still gets answered intelligently,


uuuhhhhh, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight


----------



## Mauian

SkizeR said:


> It ain't dying because its already dead. Also, activity doesnt mean its not dead


I think it’s hard to put myself in the shoes I was in a year ago before I started frequenting DIYMA and CAJ but I found these forums to be extremely helpful. It’s an archive of so much useful information. As in anywhere I had to find out who the more trusted sources are, but that’s ok, that’s needed everywhere, even in scientific journals there are those that are more trusted and certain authors and institutions that are more trusted.

From seeing so many of your posts over the years I think it’s fair to say you’ve learned a ton too from this forum, but I’m guessing probably a lot less lately...and that’s ok and natural I think. But I can see why it could lead people to think the forums are dead or SSQ on Facebook is dying or that they are all dumpster fires....but having looked back at old discussions many years ago on DIYMA, there was always asinine comments and such. I think as the knowledge level grows though, the tolerance for that goes way down as it gets harder and harder to find useful nuggets when you know a lot already.

I guess I’m saying is that I’ve learned a ton from you (Nick) and other trusted members on this site. I find it awesome. Not dead to me at all. The stewardship role is kind of cool too, so we still need the old guard even if admittedly it’s a lot less fun or useful for you guys than it used to be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rob feature

I pretty much only stop by to check on this thread. Not trying to hate on DIYMA or anything, but it got pretty stale there for a while. Maybe it has gotten better, I dunno. I prefer CAJ though...only so much time in a day.


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## SkizeR

for those that want to see how ResoNix performs against the previous leader, Sound Deadener Showdown, tune into the live video at 7:30pst on the facebook group "The Deadening". Chris is finally starting his official room temp resonance testing tonight!



https://www.facebook.com/groups/651457188787366


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## SkizeR

anyone watch?


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## Coolhand20th

Nope was on the couch watching TV most of the night. I am a part of that group though have been since about a week or two after it formed.


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## lithium

Watched the vod, good results for resonix. Anyone have a link to their test methodology and test rig design? It looks like a calibrated microphone measuring response across a piece of steel w/ and w/o dampener applied?


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## SkizeR

lithium said:


> Watched the vod, good results for resonix. Anyone have a link to their test methodology and test rig design? It looks like a calibrated microphone measuring response across a piece of steel w/ and w/o dampener applied?


I'm pretty sure you can see what it is and how it works in this video..



https://www.facebook.com/groups/651457188787366/permalink/651483185451433/


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## rob feature

Bump for the non-facebookers. Any updates?


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## Turb0Yoda

SkizeR said:


> anyone watch?


Popped in just to watch man trip over a power cord... then back to work for meetings


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## wyvern

How do i interpret the results and know whats good and what isnt?


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## rob feature

rob feature said:


> Bump for the non-facebookers. Any updates?


Anyone?


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## Theslaking

They are updating on FB.


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## rob feature

Theslaking said:


> They are updating on FB.


Right. Was hoping someone might update for those who don't facebook.


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## daloudin

rob feature said:


> Right. Was hoping someone might update for those who don't facebook.


Last update was nothing failed at 400⁰ - turned off oven and left house while it was cooling...

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Tony G

What is the verdict for Noico 80mil? It’s described as butyl based with an asphalt undercoating(?). Will it melt or hold up when attached to the trunk lid or vertically?

Also, l want a heat barrier on my trans tunnel and floorboards. I plan CLD, CCF and MLV overall. Should the heat barrier go over the CLD and which is an effective product or combination? This is for a small open roadster. My main goal is to dampen the sheet metal resonance and block the direct engine/trans/exhaust/road noise from transmitting into the cabin. Any thoughts on insulating a convertible top?


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## Turb0Yoda

Noico = garbage is the TL;DR. Doesn't dampen for **** and weill melt and ruin stuff.


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## jtrosky

I used Noico 80-mil on my "other" car and I was honestly impressed with it. So impressed that I also used it on my new 2018 Challenger. It's been on my other car for years now - including the roof, the doors and rear-deck - and I've never had ANY oder, ANY melting or any other issues. It made a huge difference in the midbass on my other car (since I used it to seal up the big holes in the doors).

Is it the absolute best deadener out there? Of course not. But it's a good deadener for a good price, IMO. I have absolutely no complaints about it whatsoever and will continue to use it.

I also used the Noico CCF and liked it as well.


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## shabaan

I used 72 sq. ft. of NOICO 80 mil on my car floor, 4 doors and trunk, I live in an area where temp reaches 115 F during July and August with no smell or melt. IMO it works well as a deadener!


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## DriverDaily

Has anyone tested the 3M Thinsulate CLD ? It comes in 1.6mm (EDM1016) and 2.9mm (EDM1029) thick.


EDM1016 is 1.1kg/m^3
EDM1029 is 1.4kg/m^3
Dynamat Xtreme is 2.2kg/m^3 and was noted to be a good choice for performance-to-weight in the last CLD test.


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## Turb0Yoda

I believe Chris did test _A_ 3M project on the Facebook group but I can’t remember the exact same of it.


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## SkizeR

Chris tested it on his Facebook group. It did very well considering its weight, but overall, not so great. 

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk


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## DriverDaily

OK, thanks for the heads up. I found Chris's results in the Facebook group.

In terms of Max db, 35 grams of 3M EDM1029 performed as well as 50-80g of butyl based product. I also see Resonix performing 1st overall and 2nd best by weight.



































Assuming cost is irrelevant, I would be using Resonix where weight doesn't matter and 3M where weight does. Sadly, I figured this out right as I finished doing the doors in my Cayman.


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## SkizeR

Yay for ResoNix for doing better than pretty much everything else even with half the coverage


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## SkizeR

DriverDaily said:


> OK, thanks for the heads up. I found Chris's results in the Facebook group.
> 
> In terms of Max db, 35 grams of 3M EDM1029 performed as well as 50-80g of butyl based product.* I also see Resonix performing 1st overall and 2nd best by weight.*
> 
> Assuming cost is irrelevant, I would be using Resonix where weight doesn't matter and 3M where weight does. Sadly, I figured this out right as I finished doing the doors in my Cayman.


Seems to be the best traditional constrained layer damper by weight. Im not even sure if the 3m is considered a constrained layer damper.


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## SkizeR

Chris's testing is still ongoing, but in order to help make the data easy to understand, I published this article that breaks down the data. Enjoy 






Sound Deadener Test Results – ResoNix Sound Solutions







resonixsoundsolutions.com


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## Slave2myXJ

Has anyone tried something like this? They have a sample of this at their store and it is UNGODLY. Like a dime size piece of material COMPLETELY deadens a sq ft sheet metal panel. Blew my mind... They also have strips and sheets of it.









Vibra Block® Sound Deadening Material (Pad) - Soundproof Cow


Vibra Block® sound deadening material pad effectively reduces structural & vibration based noise transmission, providing maximum performance.




www.soundproofcow.com





I installed ~50 sq ft of the below stuff in my black XJ Cherokee a couple yrs ago. Pulled a tile off the floor pan a couple months ago with no issues other than being a PITA. Definitely good material... Definitely inexpensive...









RoadBlockR Sound Deadening Material | Car Soundproofing Product


RoadBlockR sound deadening material improves audio performance and sound quality in your car by dampening sound vibrations in the metal panels. Learn More.




www.soundproofcow.com





Absolutely zero affiliation with this company; simply cheaper for me to pick-up than to have delivered... Could provide material to support testing...


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## SkizeR

Slave2myXJ said:


> Has anyone tried something like this? They have a sample of this at their store and it is UNGODLY. Like a dime size piece of material COMPLETELY deadens a sq ft sheet metal panel. Blew my mind... They also have strips and sheets of it.


This is a bit misleading of them. Thin sheet metal that tiny is _extremely _easy to dampen. Even a dime-sized piece of peanut butter would most likely quiet down a small piece of 18 gauge sheet metal Larger panels that are of appropriate thickness and resonance would be a more realistic and frankly, honest, demo


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## Slave2myXJ

Got ya...


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## SkizeR

Slave2myXJ said:


> Has anyone tried something like this? They have a sample of this at their store and it is UNGODLY. Like a dime size piece of material COMPLETELY deadens a sq ft sheet metal panel. Blew my mind... They also have strips and sheets of it.
> 
> I installed ~50 sq ft of the below stuff in my black XJ Cherokee a couple yrs ago. Pulled a tile off the floor pan a couple months ago with no issues other than being a PITA. Definitely good material... Definitely inexpensive...
> 
> 
> Absolutely zero affiliation with this company; simply cheaper for me to pick-up than to have delivered... Could provide material to support testing...


Also, looking at their listing more now, it doesn't really make sense. I'll break it down. 





> Constructed from a high-performance vibration dampening polymer


Okay, noted. We can tell by the photos that this is what seems to be a vinyl-based product, and the fact that they call it a vibration dampening *polymer *somewhat confirms that unless there is some new damping product on the market. Also, red flag that a sound treatment company doesn't know the correct verbiage when talking about their products. Dampening means to make something wet. Damping is the word they are looking for. 


The second red flag would be in their photo of the product. They are calling this a visco-elastic material. That is impossible. It's a vinyl-based (most likely) polymer. Visco-elastic would be an elastomer, so which one is it. TBH, after looking at their products, I know who their manufacturer is. This company that you are linking to just goes to this manufacturer and buys and rebrands all of the products this aforementioned manufacturer/distributor can get their hands on, and puts their own logo on these many different boxes. It's all relatively basic products. Parts Express also uses them to do something similar, except for their CLD/foam and straight CLD products. Those are from the Chinese factory that a lot of other companies rebrand as well.


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## Slave2myXJ

I can't disagree with anything you're saying. They certainly don't make anything, purely a warehouse... The CLD was unlabeled. All the guy said was that it was different physics than CLD. Converts vibration to heat perhaps? Been a couple years... It's very much like polycarbonate decal laminate material w/ an adhesive back. The guy indicated that it's all about efficiency. Slap a piece at just the right spot, saves the weight of CLD. I guess my thought was, if you knew what you were doing, perhaps it would be cheaper than CLD in car audio applications. Outer door skins seem like the perfect place to ease the strain on the hinges. 

And when I say dead, I mean DEAD. Panel suspended in the air, hitting it with a hard plastic drum mallet and it goes THUD dead... Can't deny that it was a marketing setup to "amaze" the customers. Also can't deny that their website is a whole lot of marketing jazz and most likely wrong on quite a few points. Being able to pick-up a roll of MLV versus having it shipped was the big saver for me. I can't say how their offerings compare once shipping is factored in, just thought I'd throw it out there to the community. It was instantly apparent that they don't have many people picking-up; more of an Advisory/"Engineering" type firm with a webstore... Most likely custom/police/defense aircraft up-fits and professional offices if I had to guess... Definitely don't see many of my kind coming in there.


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## SkizeR

Slave2myXJ said:


> I can't disagree with anything you're saying. They certainly don't make anything, purely a warehouse... The CLD was unlabeled. All the guy said was that it was different physics than CLD. Converts vibration to heat perhaps?


This is how a CLD works. Visco-elastic butyl stretching and resisting between the panel you adhere it to, and the aluminum constraining layer which provides the butyl a "reference". The vinyl products work by stiffening the panel



Slave2myXJ said:


> Been a couple years... It's very much like polycarbonate decal laminate material w/ an adhesive back. The guy indicated that it's all about efficiency. Slap a piece at just the right spot, saves the weight of CLD. I guess my thought was, if you knew what you were doing, perhaps it would be cheaper than CLD in car audio applications. Outer door skins seem like the perfect place to ease the strain on the hinges.


The problem with vinyl products in my experience is their lack of being able to handle a wide bandwidth of temperatures. They will not handle cold well (they get stiff and crack), and they loosen up to nothing super useful when hot. I've even taken cars apart that had work done before us using these types of products and found it all shattered in the bottom of the door. 



Slave2myXJ said:


> And when I say dead, I mean DEAD. Panel suspended in the air, hitting it with a hard plastic drum mallet and it goes THUD dead... Can't deny that it was a marketing setup to "amaze" the customers. Also can't deny that their website is a whole lot of marketing jazz and most likely wrong on quite a few points.


So this depends on the panel. You mentioned 12" x 12" or so. As I said, if that's something like 18 gauge, or god forbid even thinner, anything applied to that panel will make it seem pretty dead. Definitely cool that you could go and pick stuff up from them though.


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