# All amps sound the same - a watt is a watt



## ANT

Discuss


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## jacampb2

Is this seriously a myth? I have never, ever heard someone argue that all amps sound the same.

Its been a long time since I worked in the industry, so maybe its a new one...

A perfect amp would faithfully reproduce the input signal, but perfect amps do not exist.

Later,
Jason


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## BowDown

Amps within similar tolerances for distortion and power output will sound the same.


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## Mooble

Horse: "I'm dead. Please stop beating me."


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## AAAAAAA

no and yes and yes and no.

If all amps can sound the same, and the same amp can sound different.

Then what to make of it?


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## BowDown

Mooble said:


> Horse: "I'm dead. Please stop beating me."


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## chefhow

If they do I'm gonna buy a Rockwood from the 90's and call it a day...


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## Revdoc

I think this is the source of this one, the $10,000 amplifier challenge from Richard Clark: Amp challenge rules, revisions & posts. - Talk Audio

I get what he is saying, in his rules he limits the THD of the amps and makes sure they have decent S/N, channel separation, etc. He is basically saying that even the crappier amps can put out clean sound at low power levels, the difference is how much power an amp can put out without increasing THD.

Of course in the real world this doesn't make much difference, if you buy a Rockwood rated at 600 watts you might expect it to be usable at that 600 watt level, not full of distortion and sounding like crap. That is the difference between the Rockwood and a JL 500/1, the JL will do 500 watts with much less THD so you get more usable power out of it. Hell my wall outlet will put out 110v * 15 amps = 1650 watts @ 60 hz before it blows a breaker but that doesn't mean it will be pleasant to the ears.


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## el_chupo_

I dont think even the most staunch arguers of the typical "an amp isnt better than the other, for "sound"" crowd will argue that amps dont sound different. The typical argument is will 2 well designed amps, level matched, without EQ, and without distortion, be a noticable difference.

A watt is a watt. That is not the question. Science has defined that for us. Some amps sound differently, either by design (distortion[intentional or not], EQ curves added, different output levels, etc) or by error. 

Richard Clark challenge is the experiment always brought up - but remember, he EQ's the amps to make sure there is no odd frequency response, level matches, and maintains that they are operated at the same output so distortion is not a factor for either amp in the challenge. The challenge is to take out all the BS that makes a difference, and listen to the fact that a watt is a watt. Then, if you like all the stuff that changes the sound, you can choose to buy that amp.


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## arw01

In the hey day of Nakamichi, they figured out one of the key things about the high end tube amps from the golden era. That distortion was in phase with the original signal. They had created an experiment that showed the effect of distortion phase and concluded it was quite audible.

I absolutely do not believe all amps can sound the same. I bet swapping amps in a car would evey move the sound stage around.


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## Sarthos

A watt is a watt...true. Whether or an amp sends a watt to a speaker when you think it is different.

For many of us, when we set the gain on an amp we go by a simple formula. Watts = volts * volts divided by resistance. Or volts = square root of (watts * resistance). So to get 400 watts on a 4 ohm speaker we might set the gain until the amp is putting out 40 volts on a multimeter at 75% head unit volume...etc.

However, what you're not accounting for is (1) output resistance on the amp which can rob your speaker of some power. (2) impedance which can put the output current out of phase with the output voltage. Luckily output resistance is usually low enough on amps not to make much of a difference, and if you use the same speaker in two tests the impedance shouldn't change. But if one of the two amps has different output impedance, it could put the current and voltage out of phase and rob you of some power.


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## ChrisB

If they measure the same, they will sound the same as long as they are kept within their power limits! 

Read this test and form your own conclusions: http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf


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## FartinInTheTub

I've always hated this discussion. A watt is a watt... i know this, I've been a commercial electrician for 20 years but all amps do NOT sound the same. That would possibly be true if the amps were built the same. Amps are built differently with different components and internal electronic attributes. Put 2 Pyramid amps next to each other and they will probably sound the same if they are rated and set up the same. I have an Audison 2.150 and a Sinfoni 90.2 , they are rated pretty much the same all around but take a listen to your midrange from the Sinfoni... it will sound much cleaner and transparent. It's what goes into amplifiers that makes them different. There's a reason that you don't see people pimpin Soundstorm amps at MECA finals... You get what you pay for.


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## M-Dub

If they measure the same, they will sound the same. 

If one doesn't sound the same, there is something wrong with that amp.


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## ChrisB

M-Dub said:


> If they measure the same, they will sound the same.
> 
> If one doesn't sound the same, there is something wrong with that amp.


I am guessing that those who hear differently in amplifiers that measure the same should go on Stan Lee's Superhumans for having bionic ears that process sound better than the precision instruments that measure sound. Maybe we can contact Richard Clark to conduct an experiment for Superhumans with these individuals. I'd DVR that episode!


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## jacampb2

I would agree that amps that are truthfully rated and similarly rated will indeed sound the same. There is no mystical musical mojo that is going on and that cannot be measured.

That is not however the premise put forth to discuss. It said all amps sound the same, implying the only measurement that mattered was a watt.

Later,
Jason


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## Allan74

ChrisB said:


> Maybe we can contact Richard Clark...





ChrisB said:


> To the OP: call up Richard Clark....saying that you won $10k of Richard Clark's money.....


That's 2 threads I've read in as many minutes....
Is there something that the rest of us need to know about YOU and RICHARD CLARK ?

Trust me, I know how it is, but thankfully I don't know the name of anyone in particular at Elettromedia....LOL


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## Niebur3

Are you serious??? I think this has been covered in depth, not too long ago.

Here, Read!

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...level-matched-amps-head-units-sound-same.html


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## ChrisB

Allan74 said:


> That's 2 threads I've read in as many minutes....
> Is there something that the rest of us need to know about YOU and RICHARD CLARK ?
> 
> Trust me, I know how it is, but thankfully I don't know the name of anyone in particular at Elettromedia....LOL


Just the fact that no audio snob has ever been able to take his money and the fact that the golden eared crew swears that they can hear differences even though things measure the same. If they are so confident, they may as well take Richard Clark's $10,000 challenge and prepare to be humbled in the process.

I've performed miniature, "as scientific as I can get" tests using most of RC's criteria and limiting output to 10 watts RMS between two amplifiers on the same set of home stereo speakers. Guess what? My friends and family members couldn't tell which amplifier was playing either. The conclusion was the same in all instances in that if the amplifiers measure similarly, it is nearly impossible to distinguish which one is playing at an output level well below the amplifier's threshold of clipping!

I also had a friend who wanted to try my either my Soundstream Reference 700s or my Linear Power LP150 in his car because he thought his MTX amplifier didn't sound right. While he was watching TV in my living room, I took a look at his system and realized his settings were all screwed up. I re-tuned the system, then had him sit in the car. He swore that everything sounded clearer and better and asked me which amplifier I swapped his out for. You should have seen the look on his face when I showed him that it was the SAME amplifier in his system just tuned properly. It was priceless!


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## t3sn4f2

FartinInTheTub said:


> I've always hated this discussion. A watt is a watt... i know this, I've been a commercial electrician for 20 years but all amps do NOT sound the same. That would possibly be true if the amps were built the same. Amps are built differently with different components and internal electronic attributes. Put 2 Pyramid amps next to each other and they will probably sound the same if they are rated and set up the same. I have an Audison 2.150 and a Sinfoni 90.2 , they are rated pretty much the same all around but take a listen to your midrange from the Sinfoni... it will sound much cleaner and transparent. It's what goes into amplifiers that makes them different. There's a reason that you don't see people pimpin Soundstorm amps at MECA finals... You get what you pay for.


Here's why the Sinfoni amp sounds better then the Audison.

"The Audiophile Banana"


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## sqshoestring

For the most part you need a pure junk amp to not be able to reproduce the original signal. Amps do clip differently, internal EQ differently, have different lifespans, quality of the case/controls/terminals/internal build/etc, can have different tolerances to electrical noise...but 99% of the preamp and output stages in amps can do the job, if under clipping. I'm pretty confident one could build a SQ car out of pyle amps or similar, providing the judges did not know what amps were in there. You can run into odd issues with cheapo amps like the L/R balance being off in the gain control, due to larger tolerances in the cheap pot they used. Even midrange amps can have that. Cheap switches and plugs can break and crackle/etc. Its just that the amplifier section in cheap amps does work however much power it actually has, but there are a lot of other qualities in an amp than the sound....for some reason some people think the opposite of that.


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## darkist240sx

...!!!


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## t3sn4f2

sqshoestring said:


> For the most part you need a pure junk amp to not be able to reproduce the original signal. Amps do clip differently, internal EQ differently, have different lifespans, quality of the case/controls/terminals/internal build/etc, can have different tolerances to electrical noise...but 99% of the preamp and output stages in amps can do the job, if under clipping. I'm pretty confident one could build a SQ car out of pyle amps or similar, providing the judges did not know what amps were in there. You can run into odd issues with cheapo amps like the L/R balance being off in the gain control, due to larger tolerances in the cheap pot they used. Even midrange amps can have that. Cheap switches and plugs can break and crackle/etc. Its just that the amplifier section in cheap amps does work however much power it actually has, but there are a lot of other qualities in an amp than the sound....for some reason some people think the opposite of that.


Exactly, amp SQ will take care of itself if everyone would pay attention to the things that _actually_ affect it.


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## emilimo701

FartinInTheTub said:


> I've always hated this discussion. A watt is a watt... i know this, I've been a commercial electrician for 20 years but all amps do NOT sound the same. That would possibly be true if the amps were built the same. Amps are built differently with different components and internal electronic attributes. Put 2 Pyramid amps next to each other and they will probably sound the same if they are rated and set up the same. I have an Audison 2.150 and a Sinfoni 90.2 , they are rated pretty much the same all around but take a listen to your midrange from the Sinfoni... it will sound much cleaner and *transparent*. It's what goes into amplifiers that makes them different. There's a reason that you don't see people pimpin Soundstorm amps at MECA finals... You get what you pay for.


I dare you to define "transparent" and not start to doubt yourself while trying to conjure up such definition.


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## audiogodz1

"No" amps sound the same. 

I can't jump a house, but I can with a rocket powered pogo stick. Just like no amp can sound like another unless it has an EQ in front of it. All amps are built differently and perform differently with many pre-equalized from the factory to sound better in certain areas. None can perform equally without help and therefore none sound the same. Even with the EQ, you have to match dampening factors, thd, etc..... within tolerances JUST LIKE CLARK DID.

Clarks challenge is to prove a point about coloring sound, not to prove all amps actually sound the same.


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## Miniboom

The correct amplifier for a given project is any amp with enough power for usage in the intended application, that at the same time don't degrade the sound so much that you can't ignore it - or fix it with EQ as a good backup solution.

I'd rather spend a little less on an amp that's more than powerful enough, but needs a little more EQ'ing, than an amp that needs no correction but lacks in power. *Most* amps sound good to a certain level, but aren't powerful enough to get really loud while sounding good.

My opinion is that most *quality* amps have minor differences in how they sound, I'll let price/real power, availability/aesthetics/features etc decide exactly which to choose, and "fix" the rest by selecting good speakers, mounting them as good as possible, and smooth out the rest with EQ. 

Those three things have far more effect on the sound that any normal amp ever will.


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## ChrisB

audiogodz1 said:


> "No" amps sound the same.
> 
> I can't jump a house, but I can with a rocket powered pogo stick. Just like no amp can sound like another unless it has an EQ in front of it. All amps are built differently and perform differently with many pre-equalized from the factory to sound better in certain areas. None can perform equally without help and therefore none sound the same. Even with the EQ, you have to match *dampening factors*, thd, etc..... within tolerances JUST LIKE CLARK DID.
> 
> Clarks challenge is to prove a point about coloring sound, not to prove all amps actually sound the same.


Uh oh, you did it too! How exactly does one quantify hearing a difference in damping factors?


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## sqshoestring

Clark's point was that modern SS amps can take a signal and make the same sound come out of a speaker. They may be built with different topologies or EQ, etc, it does not matter any amp of standard quality is capable of reproducing that signal with more perfection than a human ear can hear. Any difference is from intended or known EQ. Today it is a much larger joke, because making an amplifier is pure child's play in the world of electronics. There is no excuse for an amp working any differently than the designer wants it to. Even with dirt cheap parts made in China the amp can still do a perfect job of making the sound....even while other attributes suffer. Sure you might find an amp that can't, but it is unlikely. But just because the amp is that capable, does not mean the designer built it to sound just like every other amp.


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## ItalynStylion

Have you guys tried actively measuring the output of a sub amp with a DMM while sliding the sine wave frequency down? Starting higher and taking it to 20hz?


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## raamaudio

I like THD being mentioned so much in this type of thread. Unless it is quite high you cannot hear it!

Intermodulation distortion is far more critical yet hardly every discussed, let alone published.


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## ChrisB

ItalynStylion said:


> Have you guys tried actively measuring the output of a sub amp with a DMM while sliding the sine wave frequency down? Starting higher and taking it to 20hz?



I have.. I watched a Hifonics BXi 1606d struggle to produce unclipped power below 45 Hz into 1 ohm of dummy loads. IIRC it started clipping at 16 volts of output, which put it a calculated power of 256 watts. That was WELL below the 1600 it was supposed to produce and it was an eye opening experience with regards to budget Class D amplifiers. 

An engineering buddy tested my Linear Power 5002 and we watched it pull close to 95 amps to make 500 watts RMS around 30 Hz... Want to talk about inefficient?


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## Oliver

HO alt. , batteries, caps ...

They are not known for being efficient .

*NEVER* buy a class A if you are trying to save money on your electrical system in your car !

Go with G/H or D 

Never go with a PLASMA TV for efficiency , try LCD or LED.

Plasmas are 3 times as expensive to run as LCD's


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## ItalynStylion

ChrisB said:


> it was an eye opening experience


It always is.


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## Oliver

*Take the money and run*



> http://www.davidnavone.com/a2000/Amp...20Revision.pdf
> THE $10,000 amplifier CHALLENGE RULES {revised May 28 , 2005}
> By Richard Clark
> There is no question that all amps are not the same. It is very easy to measure large differences in the performance of amplifiers. This is true in nearly every known specification, including power, noise, distortion, etc. My experience has led me to believe that even though these differences can be easily measured, hearing those differences may not be so easy. Given the relatively small magnitude of performance differences, there is a giant step between amplifier performance and our ability to hear performance differences.
> It is claimed by designers, manufacturers and especially salespersons that differences in amplifiers are clearly audible. Reasons include "obvious" advantages of one type of circuit topology over another. For example, it is claimed that certain designs have a smoother midrange response whereas other amplifiers exhibit tighter bass. Tube fanatics claim that tube amplifiers have that "warm" sound we all need in our systems.
> Such descriptive terms are certainly subject to personal interpretation. It is not my intention to determine if one particular amplifier is better than another amplifier. Differences in the quality of the discrete components and constructions are more appropriate for settling the issue of "good - better - best." The sole purpose of my amplifier challenge is to determine if the differences in amplifiers are audible.
> What differences are Audible?
> I believe the perceived differences in amplifiers are all due to various factors that can be explained with basic physics and elementary psycho-acoustics. For instance, if two amplifiers are not carefully matched in volume, and one amp is slightly louder than the other, then it would be a simple matter to detect such a difference. In such an example it is important to understand that it is not the circuit topology, quality of the component, design excellence, or superb marketing and packaging that caused the noticeable difference - it was an error in the test setup! It is my present belief that as long as a modern amplifier is operated within its linear range (below overload), the differences between amps are inaudible to the human ear.
> Comparing Amps
> The idea here is for a test subject to scientifically demonstrate his/her ability to hear differences in amplifiers. It is our job to carefully match the amps so that we are comparing "apples to apples" instead of "oranges to frogs." This means that we sure wouldn't want to compare one amplifier that had + 12 dB of high frequency boost against another amplifier that was adjusted for + 12 dB of bass boost. Such a test would be easy to pass - even on identical amplifiers with consecutive serial numbers.
> For our comparison test, we aren't concerned with which amplifier sounds best to the test subject. We only require that the listener be able to identify each amplifier when it is powering the speakers. Since many folks seem to believe that amplifiers have some kind of distinctive sonic character, this test should be easy to pass. Right? After all, we're talking about comparing those harsh sounding, high distortion, squeaky "widget As" to those warm sounding, smooth, bass hog "widget Bs."
> Now pay particular attention to the following sections. Since we're looking for differences in amplifiers, and we already know that those differences are probably going to be very, very small, it is important that the parameters under our control be carefully adjusted so as to be equal as possible. This means that we must be cognizant of differences we might unknowingly introduce between amp A and amp B. They must be adjusted as identical as possible. We already mentioned the importance of volume. The same goes for the L and R balance. It sure would be easy to choose an amplifier that exhibited left side bias over a balanced amp. Right?
> Well, in order to keep this amplifier comparison test fair, there are a few other parameters that must be considered. I'll list them all in the following section.
> Amplifier Comparison Test Conditions
> 1. Amplifier gain controls - of both channels - are matched to within +- .05 dB.
> 2. Speaker wires on both amps are properly wired with respect to polarity. (+ and -)
> 3. That neither amp has signal phase inversion. If so correction will be made in #2 above.
> 4. That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance.
> 5. That all amplifiers with signal processors have those features turned off. This includes bass boost circuits, filters, etc. If frequency tailoring circuits cannot be completely bypassed an equalizer will be inserted in the signal path of one of the amps (only one and the listener can decide which) to compensate for the difference. Compensation will also be made for input and output loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only listening for differences in the sonic signature of circuit topology, the addition of an EQ in only one amps signal path should make the test even easier.
> 6. That neither amp exhibits excessive noise (including RFI).
> 7. That each amp can be properly driven by the test setup. Not normally a problem but it is theoretically a problem.
> 8. That the L and R channels are not reversed in one amp.
> 9. That neither amp has excessive physical noise or other indicators that can be observed by the listener.
> 10. That neither amp has DC OFFSET that causes audible pops when its output is switched.
> 11. That the channel separation of all amps in the test is at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.



*npdang*

Default Re: THE $10,000 AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE
I don't think anyone ever, ever said that all amps sound the same. The debate is whether or not it's worth paying for those differences.


*werewolf*

THE $10,000 AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE
You won't win the challenge.

If you really understand what the challenge is saying about what contributes to the "sound" of amplifiers ... and equally important, what doesn't contribute to the "sound" of amplifiers ... you'll understand why.

Please do us all a favor, in this thread at least. Don't make the blatantly STUPID assumption that the challenge says that "all amps sound the same", or that the challenge says that "a watt is a watt." If you think the challenge can be captured by either of these simple-minded synopses, you really don't understand the challenge at all.


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## m3gunner

I suppose I'll put in my two cents here...

I worked at a high end stereo shop in my youth. I met a guy that could hear the difference between components pretty reliably. Really phenomenal hearing.

I doubt even he could hear the difference between amps driving down the road at 65 miles per hour.

I believe that amps do sound different, but I think it's more about what's on either side of the gain stage in the amps than anything else.

The funny part is that my hearing sucks badly enough that it pretty much doesn't matter these days. I pick amps based on their size, reliability, efficiency and power output. To me, they really do all sound the same.


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## ItalynStylion

m3gunner said:


> I believe that amps do sound different, but I think it's more about what's on either side of the gain stage in the amps than anything else.
> 
> I pick amps based on their size, reliability, efficiency and power output.


I agree with all of these statements. I don't think there is anything sonically that I can pick up with my ears that can't be measured though. The problem is that most of the time the proper measurements aren't available and the WAY things were measured can be largely inconsistent. 

And I agree on the above method for choosing car audio amps. That's why I run a JL HD900/5. I know the brand will stand behind their product, power is great at a variety of impedances (good when changing up drivers), and it's the size of a small text book. Plus, class D efficient


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## subwoofery

Oliver said:


> *Take the money and run*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *npdang*
> 
> Default Re: THE $10,000 AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE
> I don't think anyone ever, ever said that all amps sound the same. The debate is whether or not it's worth paying for those differences.
> 
> 
> *werewolf*
> 
> THE $10,000 AMPLIFIER CHALLENGE
> You won't win the challenge.
> 
> If you really understand what the challenge is saying about what contributes to the "sound" of amplifiers ... and equally important, what doesn't contribute to the "sound" of amplifiers ... you'll understand why.
> 
> Please do us all a favor, in this thread at least. Don't make the blatantly STUPID assumption that the challenge says that "all amps sound the same", or that the challenge says that "a watt is a watt." If you think the challenge can be captured by either of these simple-minded synopses, you really don't understand the challenge at all.


I like that and I hope people understand now what the challenge implies. 

Ohh and please look at my sig  

Kelvin


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## ChrisB

ItalynStylion said:


> It always is.


Here is an old Orion HCCA 225 Digital Reference reproducing Pink Noise as recorded through a Countryman Type 85 Direct Box and a USB Mic Mate:


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## Oliver

> Definition of SOLIPSISM: a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thing; also: extreme egocentrism


*ID*
*Super EGO*
*Fekkin GOD complex*

*LOL , Ha Ha !*


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## Dangerranger

Hmm. To say it first, I don't know that this is the right place for such a question as it's the type that will likely never be answered definitively. It's a question that has so many variables to account for and due to that an "absolute" answer will probably never be agreed upon. The question also attracts the extreme ends of "believers", being the extreme subjectivists and the extreme objectivists.

The simple truth is: the distortion levels of any competently designed amplifier during normal use (NOT in a state of clipping) are indiscernible to the human ear. ANY human ear. If you're doing a proper A/B/X comparison, and the gains are level matched, the amplifiers don't have a preset EQ curve and are proven to have a flat response, and you do a proper comparison. A proper comparison being at least 12 tests, if not 20 or more, just because in an A/B/X test guessing will give a correct answer 50% of the time.

So a few myths and facts:

*MYTH:*The right tests don't exist to evaluate performance.

*FACT:The right tests do exist, have existed for decades, and (fortunately) testing is becoming more and more frequent as people get tired of the BS that exists in the audio field. However, that does NOT mean that any test you see has accounted for the numerous variables that are guaranteed to occur in the system in a real-world application. It's possible to test and account for those variables, and said tests DO exist. But it's probable that those testing weren't that thorough as it would require a LOT of testing, a LOT of time, a LOT of test subjects, and a LOT of money. Can you test to see how voltage swings affect an amplifiers output? Say a very tightly regulated amplifier versus an unregulated one in the same conditions? YES, you can test for that. Has the tester done this? Likely not. He probably hasn't tested for impedance swings in the speakers, how the temperature of a speaker is going to affect it's impedance curve, how power compression of the speaker and it's thermal heat dissipation will affect it. How much power you're actually going to need in a real world application to overcome the noise floor as well as how much power and headroom is left AFTER you've equalized the response. Can this be tested? YES. Will it be tested? Very likely not until it's actually in the end application. BUT an important thing to note is that a subjective evaluation is even less useful in this situation, and a subjective evaluation also will have the same variables to have to compensate for as an objective one. In other words, neither evaluation can account for all of them without a ton of time invested. 

MYTH: Amplifiers won't "sound the same" unless they measure exactly the same

FACT:

Of course it's true that an amplifier that measures exactly the same as another will undoubtedly sound the same (in/under the conditions of the test itself). But people take "exactly the same" to the extreme. But just because an amplifier slightly (not significantly, I said slightly) varies doesn't mean that in a controlled test they won't sound the same TO THE HUMAN EAR. It's very hard to get two transistors to be complimentary in the same output stage, much less have two perfectly matched amplifiers to test. By that even with tolerances, two amplifiers off the same production line will vary enough to be able to measure a difference. Competently designed amplifiers have negligible distortion when not overloaded. Levels should be matched in any A/B/X comparison. Obviously a trash designed amplifier with noise issues should be avoided anyway as it certainly doesn't have any redeeming qualities. Things like damping factor CAN have a difference, but usually only with things like esoteric tube amps and designers that blatantly violate engineering concepts to cater to corrupted tastes. Any other variables that need to be accounted for, refer to myth #1 above.

MYTH: The "Golden Ear"

FACT You, your friend, your colleague, your stereo shop guy can't hear any better than any other person that hasn't suffered from a form of permanent hearing loss. Your hearing isn't special, it isn't more acute or keen nor can it pick up on nuances that "slip by" the rest of us. Of course your stereo shop owner can "hear it". It's how he's pushing product. He'd look like a complete moron to walk up and say that there really isn't an audible difference between that $300 amplifier and the $2000 one in controlled conditions. And he's going to bully you into "hearing it" so you don't feel inferior to him when you're trying to make a logical decision. That's just how buying works. Emotion makes you want it, logic justifies your being able to afford it. Hence the subjectivist puppetmasters yanking your strings.

Now, there is one thing to note. There is a difference between a "golden ear" and a TRAINED ear. A "golden ear" is an elitist pompous ass that tries to claim superiority, usually to push an agenda, and usually hates objective testing because it conflicts with said agenda or they just don't like to hear the truth that they or their equipment of choice is/are, in fact, not superior in any facet. A trained ear is a professional that has a lot of experience in the field of audio. A golden ear claims to hear things that you don't and aren't actually there. The trained ear hears what you hear, but he has the advantage of experience and knows what to listen for. Say you're housesitting for someone. You'll hear that noise in the basement just like anybody else does, but the one that's lived there for 20 years is the one that will be able to pinpoint it and say that it's the water heater turning on. 

Want to have the purest analysis in terms of hearing capability? The best basis for an unbiased A/B test? Grab a child. Let them take the test. 

Want to piss a golden ear off? Give them a simple hearing test. If they're not an infant then their hearing HAS degraded to some degree over time. Same type of test as is used in industries and businesses for annual checkups (to make sure no extreme hearing loss has occurred, say in noisy environments that require hearing protection). It gets no simpler than that. They're in a quiet environment. They have headphones on. They have a jeopardy style clicker they hit when they hear a tone. The tones range in level in 5db increments and are at different frequency ranges to see where hearing loss (if any) has occurred by frequency. Hitting the clicker when they don't hear anything or a tone isn't playing doesn't qualify, nor does hitting the clicker constantly trying to get a good score. Want to make it even better/more accurate? Do the same, make up your own soundboard, put the headphones on him/her. Make it where you can see him/her, but (s)he can't see you when you hit the tones. Hit the tones at complete random times as to not have a pattern. Make him raise his/her hand when (s)he does hear a tone. Jot down at what frequencies at what level (s)he reacted to it. Laugh when (s)he reacts thinking (s)he heard something that (s)he didn't as (s)he scrambles to try to prove you wrong. I guarantee you with either test, the results will infuriate them.*


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## sqshoestring

Oliver said:


> *ID*
> *Super EGO*
> *Fekkin GOD complex*
> 
> *LOL , Ha Ha !*


Sound like you are talking about politicians lol

I was reading about BBE the other day. It says it changes phase in certain areas.


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## audiogodz1

Oliver said:


> *Take the money and run*
> 
> If you really understand what the challenge is saying about what contributes to the "sound" of amplifiers ... and equally important, what doesn't contribute to the "sound" of amplifiers ... you'll understand why.
> 
> Please do us all a favor, in this thread at least. Don't make the blatantly STUPID assumption that the challenge says that "all amps sound the same", or that the challenge says that "a watt is a watt." If you think the challenge can be captured by either of these simple-minded synopses, you really don't understand the challenge at all.


Clark's challenge was to prove you can buy the $250 amp instead of the $450 amp and try to make them sound the same buying $900 worth of processing.


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## dales

good thread guys. coming from a former sound Q judge, i believe that with any good processing, equalization, you can get amps to sound damn close. i have listened to world champion systems critically, and i have listened to back yard installs. i Feel that it it what it is and personal preference is the deciding factor. no two people will ever hear the same, just as two amps will never sound the same.


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## sqshoestring

audiogodz1 said:


> Clark's challenge was to prove you can buy the $250 amp instead of the $450 amp and try to make them sound the same buying $900 worth of processing.


And you might have to use the processing on the 450 amp. Obviously it might be cheaper to resell amps until you find the one that sounds right, which is what I tend to do in my cars with used amps.


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## anye150

amp is important, but the input can effect amp working, so the power is also a citical factor.if so, we can not enjoy a coloring sound when input less than output.


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## Gary S

If the amps are of reasonable quality and specifications, unclipped, they will sound the same.

This is because speaker distortion is several times higher than that of an unclipped amplifier... in short, the higher distortion of the speakers will mask the lesser distortion of the amplifier.

Go look at the distortion figure for a speaker and compare it to that of an amplifier.

If you can't find a speaker distortion specification... the best I have seen is around 3%... and that's for some of the best mids I have ever heard. That's a lot higher THD than an unclipped amp.


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## subwoofery

Gary S said:


> *If the amps are of reasonable quality and specifications, unclipped, they will sound the same.*
> 
> This is because speaker distortion is several times higher than that of an unclipped amplifier... in short, the higher distortion of the speakers will mask the lesser distortion of the amplifier.
> 
> Go look at the distortion figure for a speaker and compare it to that of an amplifier.
> 
> If you can't find a speaker distortion specification... the best I have seen is around 3%... and that's for some of the best mids I have ever heard. That's a lot higher THD than an unclipped amp.


Your missing some informations in your statement. 

I can assure you that in a blind test, you'll be able to hear a difference between a RF T600/2 and a Soundstream REF2.640 - the freq response. 

Both are good quality, have pretty much the same power but one (RF) has a built-in EQ in the freq response which will make the sound different than the other (Soundstream). 

Kelvin


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## Gary S

subwoofery said:


> Your missing some informations in your statement.
> 
> I can assure you that in a blind test, you'll be able to hear a difference between a RF T600/2 and a Soundstream REF2.640 - the freq response.
> 
> Both are good quality, have pretty much the same power but one (RF) has a built-in EQ in the freq response which will make the sound different than the other (Soundstream).
> 
> Kelvin


 - Right, but you are hearing the EQ, not the amp... most of the better amps do not have EQ's built in. Note that I said above "reasonable quality"... I would not call an amp with fixed EQ reasonable quality.... Eq in an amp is the wrong way to build it... an amp should be built for a flat frequency response so that the music producer/artist/engineer can render their art as intended... I'd call that a poor amplifier. I blame Fosgate for ruining the car amp industry... they started the trend with inverters in one amp channel for trimode capability back in the 80's and now almost every other brand of car amp is the same... the left channel of car amplifiers is different from the right.


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## subwoofery

Gary S said:


> - Right, but you are hearing the EQ, not the amp... most of the better amps do not have EQ's built in. Note that I said above "reasonable quality"... _*I would not call an amp with fixed EQ reasonable quality....*_ Eq in an amp is the wrong way to build it... an amp should be built for a flat frequency response so that the music producer/artist/engineer can render their art as intended... I'd call that a poor amplifier. I blame Fosgate for ruining the car amp industry... they started the trend with inverters in one amp channel for trimode capability back in the 80's and now almost every other brand of car amp is the same... the left channel of car amplifiers is different from the right.


That's only an opinion but I see your point... Let's not go there  Shall we?

I'm from the old school thinking that believe amps sound different HOWEVER can accept the fact that 2 amps that measure the same, sound the same. 
Ok I will not be able to know which brand I'm listenning to when I listen to someone's car however, in a blind test (not knowing the brands and NOT hearing the switching ), I can hear a difference. 

Kelvin


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## 96jimmyslt

Wattage is probably the most common thing in amps and the least cared about.

What people really focus on is how many channels, high pass/low pass/all pass filter/selector, protection, size, placement of RCA's and power, things like that.

But to answer the question: no.

Why? Because every amp is wired different and as people have said, some amps just simply do not play well with other amps.


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## lanc-xpr

still i dont understand.
1) i have a track in MP3. so signal goes from headunit to amp and then to speaker.
if signal goes to amp in digital way (010010101) -what makes it sound different? 
so what things in amp make's piano(for example) in track sounds more natural or better?


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## rain27

subwoofery said:


> That's only an opinion but I see your point... Let's not go there  Shall we?
> 
> I'm from the old school thinking that believe amps sound different HOWEVER can accept the fact that 2 amps that measure the same, sound the same.
> Ok I will not be able to know which brand I'm listenning to when I listen to someone's car however, in a blind test (not knowing the brands and NOT hearing the switching ), I can hear a difference.
> 
> Kelvin


I'm not sure I understand your premise. If you acknowledge that two amps that measure the same will sound the same, how can you then say you would be able to tell the difference in a blind test? Perhaps I've misunderstood what you wrote.


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## Viggen

to some ... amps, speakers etc all sound the same. To those people buy whatever is cheaper

to other people there is a difference & a watt isn't a watt since how each amp develops that power is different due to how the amp is made. For my home stereo I went from Adcom GFA-5500's to Parasound HCA-1500 both are rated at 200ish watts.... both running the same old school infinity kappa 8.1 speakers.... nothing was changed except the amp. The Parasound sounded much better.... much tighter & deeper base with better imaging. I have been a Adcom fan since the 90's with their car audio stuff & I thought buying their home stuff would have equal performance. 

Some also say a RCA cable is a RCA cable.... a car is a car.... etc


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## Gary S

Cars are very different.

Most RCA cords are the same, as long as they are low noise (hopefully no noise).

If you really want to improve your sound system, learn about speakers, speaker placement, installation, and surround sound.


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## rain27

Viggen said:


> to some ... amps, speakers etc all sound the same. To those people buy whatever is cheaper
> 
> to other people there is a difference & a watt isn't a watt since how each amp develops that power is different due to how the amp is made. For my home stereo I went from Adcom GFA-5500's to Parasound HCA-1500 both are rated at 200ish watts.... both running the same old school infinity kappa 8.1 speakers.... nothing was changed except the amp. The Parasound sounded much better.... much tighter & deeper base with better imaging. I have been a Adcom fan since the 90's with their car audio stuff & I thought buying their home stuff would have equal performance.
> 
> Some also say a RCA cable is a RCA cable.... a car is a car.... etc


A car doesn't belong in your analogy. Nevertheless, a simple swap out of amps without level matching them will never be of value when determining if one amp sounds better than another.

The point remains that no one in recorded history has been able to distinguish one amp from another in a legitimate test when they measure the same. And the same goes for rca cables, wire, and the like.

This is about the best thread I've read on the topic: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...level-matched-amps-head-units-sound-same.html

And still, with everything Lycan says, there will be those that can not get over the fact that a Sinfoni and JVC can sound identical. It's just too much to fathom.


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## sqshoestring

I think most of it is internal EQ and how an amp clips providing you run it there. It takes me minimum a week to decide if I like an amp, or not, or no difference. But people may be looking for different things in an amp. I have amps I've had for a long time and I used them in particular installs/uses they work better for, however I see less differences with new amps than old school amps.


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## subwoofery

rain27 said:


> I'm not sure I understand your premise. If you acknowledge that two amps that measure the same will sound the same, how can you then say you would be able to tell the difference in a blind test? Perhaps I've misunderstood what you wrote.


Yeah... Actually those 2 sentences were separate ones. 
When you use 2 amps in a blind test, in a car, and not EQ to sound the same, I can hear a difference. 

And just to stir it up some more, maybe I should post a poll to know: "Who EQs their amp to sound like another?..." 
I know I don't... :laugh:

Kelvin


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## Arclight

I completely disagree w/ the premise that all amps sounds the same. Here's my personal experience: 

A few years ago I purchased a pair of Martin Logan Ascent i speakers with the intention of running them w/ a nice SQ integrated amp. The amp I wanted, the Krell, was not in stock when I purchased the speaker so I ran the ML's with my old Pioneer reciever. The ML's sounded good but not great. After I replaced the Pioneer with the Krell, it was like a whole new system...night and day. The Krell brought the ML's to life in a way the Pioneer couldn't hope to. All other components in the system, including speaker cables, were the same. 

Anyways, that's my $.02... thanks for listening.


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## Kpg2713

Arclight said:


> I completely disagree w/ the premise that all amps sounds the same. Here's my personal experience:
> 
> A few years ago I purchased a pair of Martin Logan Ascent i speakers with the intention of running them w/ a nice SQ integrated amp. The amp I wanted, the Krell, was not in stock when I purchased the speaker so I ran the ML's with my old Pioneer reciever. The ML's sounded good but not great. After I replaced the Pioneer with the Krell, it was like a whole new system...night and day. The Krell brought the ML's to life in a way the Pioneer couldn't hope to. All other components in the system, including speaker cables, were the same.
> 
> Anyways, that's my $.02... thanks for listening.


And this had nothing to do with the amount of power a Pio receiver was giving them and whatever sound processing was happening in that setup .vs the Krell? 

I am going to make a seperate statement not aimed at you, Arclight. So please don't take it as a personal attack. I honestly think people do not understand what amplification means... When you level match two amplifiers they are doing the same exact thing. Now if those amps have built in eq, are not lvl matched, and the like, that is the "difference" that you are hearing.


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## rain27

Kpg2713 said:


> And this had nothing to do with the amount of power a Pio receiver was giving them and whatever sound processing was happening in that setup .vs the Krell?
> 
> I am going to make a seperate statement not aimed at you, Arclight. So please don't take it as a personal attack. I honestly think people do not understand what amplification means... When you level match two amplifiers they are doing the same exact thing. Now if those amps have built in eq, are not lvl matched, and the like, that is the "difference" that you are hearing.


Many people believe in the magical properties of an amplifier, but marketing is where the magic is.


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## ChrisB

rain27 said:


> Many people believe in the magical properties of an amplifier, but marketing is where the magic is.


X2. I used to believe the hype until a good friend of mine challenged me to perform as scientifically of a test that I could. Once I performed proper level matching and swapped between amplifiers, I realized the power of suggestion on the ability to influence what I heard. In other words, it was nothing more than psychoacoustics at play and those BIG differences I once thought I heard weren't so big in the end. 

Now I have a calibrated RTA setup as well as the ability to test the amplifier at it's outputs with a Countryman Type 85 Direct Box.


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## Arclight

> And this had nothing to do with the amount of power a Pio receiver was giving them and whatever sound processing was happening in that setup .vs the Krell?
> 
> I am going to make a seperate statement not aimed at you, Arclight. So please don't take it as a personal attack. I honestly think people do not understand what amplification means... When you level match two amplifiers they are doing the same exact thing. Now if those amps have built in eq, are not lvl matched, and the like, that is the "difference" that you are hearing.


You may be correct KPG and you're not going to hurt my feelings with your statement (I don't take it personally as its a friendly debate). Having said that, the Pioneer just sounded hollow compared to the Krell - maybe it's marketing or the 400 watts per channel vs. 80 and the better THD % offered by the Krell. 



> Many people believe in the magical properties of an amplifier, but marketing is where the magic is.


There may be no magical qualities w/ amps, however, I'm completely sold on Sony SACD... Pink Floyd + Time + SACD played on my home audio setup is something awesome to hear.


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## SoulFly

difference i noticed between amps is things like noise. Like even my JL 450/4 has more noise with the volume at 0 than my much cheaper Alpine vpower. Some amps have turn on pop like my xdthunder or RF p60.

Typically in my car there is enough road noise that i can't really tell much difference between 30 watts or 100 watts at moderate levels.


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## envisionelec

A) A watt is a watt.
B) Amplifiers sound different when driven to their limits.


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## subwoofery

Nobody answered my question : "Who EQs their amp to sound like another?..." 

Also... no car EQ is powerful enough to level match one amp to another so why bother?

Kelvin


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## envisionelec

subwoofery said:


> Nobody answered my question : "Who EQs their amp to sound like another?..."
> 
> Also... no car EQ is powerful enough to level match one amp to another so why bother?
> 
> Kelvin


It seemed you were asking yourself if you should post a poll.

Considering that an EQ is not designed to level match, it makes sense that it would be a futile effort.


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## Thumper26

just thinking objectively, i'd say they do sound different, simply because they're built with different quality and type internal components, which have different effects of audio signals. the same pieces in amps are used in passives. do all of those sound the same?

i think the "a car is a car" comparison mentioned earlier is actually a good way to look at it. both have engines, seats, wheels, etc, but a cavalier is not a ferrari.

on the same token, is a corvette c6r less good than a lambo, just b/c the lambo cost more or has a nice interior? or would they be closer to equal since they put out similar horsepower at the wheels? i think, to a specific build quality, an amp is an amp, but the statement "all amplifiers sound the same" is not accurate.


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## subwoofery

envisionelec said:


> It seemed you were asking yourself if you should *post a poll*.
> 
> Considering that an EQ is not designed to level match, it makes sense that it would be a futile effort.


True, but I know the answer to that question/poll... 
Many seems to be satisfied with "all amps sound the same" when amps actually don't - and when the correct statement is: "all amps that measure the same, sound the same". 

I can show a freq response (not my test) of a "forum boner" amp which people comment as being a highly "dynamic" amp. 
^ its freq is not flat and that is why it "sounds" dynamic. 

So just for fun again: "Who EQs their amp to sound like another?..." 
Off course, this is a question for car audio setups 

Kelvin


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## SoulFly

Thumper26 said:


> just thinking objectively, i'd say they do sound different, simply because they're built with different quality and type internal components, which have different effects of audio signals. the same pieces in amps are used in passives. do all of those sound the same?
> 
> i think the "a car is a car" comparison mentioned earlier is actually a good way to look at it. both have engines, seats, wheels, etc, but a cavalier is not a ferrari.
> 
> on the same token, is a corvette c6r less good than a lambo, just b/c the lambo cost more or has a nice interior? or would they be closer to equal since they put out similar horsepower at the wheels? i think, to a specific build quality, an amp is an amp, but the statement "all amplifiers sound the same" is not accurate.


But is there really any evidence to show that different "quality"parts really effect individual frequencies? Seems they would effect things like noise or interference rather than sound. Cars are not electronics, I don't think they make for good anologies, I'm a computer guru of some 25 years, I know parts and their quality does not effect 1's and 0's, it effects features such as noise,heat,endurance,resistance,speed,bandwidth....etc but not the actual data that passes through, of course I realize sound data could be processed or shaped differently depending on if such parts are put in to "enhance" signals or whatever


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## Kpg2713

SoulFly said:


> But is there really any evidence to show that different "quality"parts really effect individual frequencies? Seems they would effect things like noise or interference rather than sound. Cars are not electronics, I don't think they make for good anologies, I'm a computer guru of some 25 years, I know *parts and their quality does not effect 1's and 0's, it effects features such as noise,heat,endurance,resistance,speed,bandwidth....etc but not the actual data that passes through, of course I realize sound data could be processed or shaped differently depending on if such parts are put in to "enhance" signals *or whatever


That's the difference guys. The signal hasn't changed inside the amp unless it has built in features besides amplification. It's just louder.


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## subwoofery

Kpg2713 said:


> That's the difference guys. The signal hasn't changed inside the amp unless it has built in features besides amplification. It's just louder.


In computers yes, but were talking audio here... 
If people hear a difference when changing parts inside their amp or HU, then there's a difference in either freq response or distorsion figures. 
I wish I had the data to back this up but it's not hard to understand ; since it sounds different, then it measures different. 
Or else, tell Mark from H-Audio or Matt R (former Zapco) that they have bad ears and should stop saying or selling nonsense :laugh: 

Ohh yes, I've said it before but please read my sig... 
We keep arguing about something that is actually done and true: all amps that measure different, will sound different... 
There's 2 camps when there really should only be 1... 

Kelvin


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## rain27

subwoofery said:


> In computers yes, but were talking audio here...
> If people hear a difference when changing parts inside their amp or HU, then there's a difference in either freq response or distorsion figures.
> I wish I had the data to back this up but it's not hard to understand ; since it sounds different, then it measures different.
> Or else, tell Mark from H-Audio or Matt R (former Zapco) that they have bad ears and should stop saying or selling nonsense :laugh:
> 
> Ohh yes, I've said it before but please read my sig...
> We keep arguing about something that is actually done and true: all amps that measure different, will sound different...
> There's 2 camps when there really should only be 1...
> 
> Kelvin


Why would anyone want to change something in an amp that would alter the frequency response?


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## 14642

I'd say that all amps definitely don't sound the same, but amps that have been made to sound the same do, in fact, sound the same. Seems like a no-brainer to me. 

Years ago, i built a new sound room at work to do demos and audition a bunch of speakers. I had been using an old HK Citation amp--a great amp. We replaced that amp with a Crown and I was amazed at how different it sounded. I did level match within .01V, but I didn't measure frequency response or anything else. I liked the way the Crown sounded better than the Citation. 

With that said, the differences were pretty subtle. 

However, if your car doesn't sound good, it isn't going to be fixed by changing the amp.


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## subwoofery

rain27 said:


> Why would anyone want to change something in an amp that would alter the frequency response?


Freq response determines the sound and the signature of an amp. 
One freq response will sound more dynamic to someone's ear than another. 
One freq response will sound warmer to someone's ear than another. 
One freq response will sound better to someone's ear than another. 
Heck, I could also say, one freq response will sound flatter to someone's ear than another. 

All good reasons to shape the freq response... 
Kelvin


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## Kpg2713

Of course if the frequency response is different it will sound different. I was under the assumption we were talking about amps that were measuring alike. Is it realistic to think most amps cannot faithfully amplify a flat fr? If an amp doesn't do it's job and amplify the audible spectrum more or less flat, you probably don't want it, right? My roommate is an EE and after having a conversation with him about this, he believes the audible difference in amps that even remotely measure alike is near impossible to discern in a car environment.


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## rain27

subwoofery said:


> Freq response determines the sound and the signature of an amp.
> One freq response will sound more dynamic to someone's ear than another.
> One freq response will sound warmer to someone's ear than another.
> One freq response will sound better to someone's ear than another.
> Heck, I could also say, one freq response will sound flatter to someone's ear than another.
> 
> All good reasons to shape the freq response...
> Kelvin


I understand this, but I don't think this should be the amplifier's job. I thought the goal of an amp was to provide adequate power to the speakers, coloration not included. And altering the frequency response can be done much more effectively with processing, speaker choice, speaker placement, etc.


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## subwoofery

rain27 said:


> I understand this, but I don't think this should be the amplifier's job. I thought the goal of an amp was to provide adequate power to the speakers, coloration not included. And altering the frequency response can be done much more effectively with processing, speaker choice, speaker placement, etc.


Amps have sound signature... No doubt. 
In Audiophile world, the amp should only amplify the information - like being a cable with gain. I understand that. 
Different amps are for different folks... I like pleasing distorsion from Tubes while others hate it. Taste and colors can't be discussed. 
If I like what I hear from swapping, HU, amps, EQ or drivers, I keep it - I don't care if it measures flat. <-- people should do the same and listen with their ears

Kelvin


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## ALL4SQ

Great posts on this subject. I always learn something new when reading posts like these. 

For me personally, I'm out to reproduce the music the way it was originally recorded. I have no problems with the guitar player in the band using a tube amp with really high distortion, It's basically a musical instrument the way it's being used. 

Now when we get into a car or home audio we are now just trying to reproduce the original recording. To use an amp that has distortion numbers so high that the human ear can hear the difference is simply changing the music to something different than it was originally intended to be. The same goes for amps that intentionally alter the frequency response when you compare the input to the output. They are intentionally changing how the amp sounds. 

When talking about the Amp Challenge I like to think it is proving that as long as an amp keeps its specs under the human hearing range then you cant hear a difference between amplifiers. We are talking about comparing the input signal to the output signal on the amp. If the amp is designed to alter the output signal in a way that is within the human hearing range than yes it will sound different. The question for the each person is, Do you want it to sound different than it was originally recorded?

What I truly believe people are hearing when they change out any piece of electronic equipment in there car is differences in Gain structure or noise levels that alter volume in a way that makes a person think things sound better or worse. Its common for people to think a small gain boost on a tweeter to sound bright or to some more detailed. I have yet to find to different brands of amplifiers that use the exact same gain setting to match each other. Lets face it different amplifiers can be slightly different in design, but the end result should be that the output signal should just be amplified and not intentionally altered by design when compared to the input signal. 

I would truly I like to setup a test at Autosound 2000 using the best Car audio install we can find. Then have as many "Golden Ears" type people see if they can pick out a difference between two amplifiers 12 out of 12 times.
I'm really tired of hearing people say they can hear a difference in a car between amplifiers that have specs below the human hearing range. Please remember for these tests, amps with outputs that don't match the input would either be thrown out or modified so they do match.  

I think I just wrote this post to avoid going out in the garage and getting some work done. Man I feel lazy today....


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## rain27

ALL4SQ said:


> Great posts on this subject. I always learn something new when reading posts like these.
> 
> For me personally, I'm out to reproduce the music the way it was originally recorded. I have no problems with the guitar player in the band using a tube amp with really high distortion, It's basically a musical instrument the way it's being used.
> 
> Now when we get into a car or home audio we are now just trying to reproduce the original recording. To use an amp that has distortion numbers so high that the human ear can hear the difference is simply changing the music to something different than it was originally intended to be. The same goes for amps that intentionally alter the frequency response when you compare the input to the output. They are intentionally changing how the amp sounds.
> 
> When talking about the Amp Challenge I like to think it is proving that as long as an amp keeps its specs under the human hearing range then you cant hear a difference between amplifiers. We are talking about comparing the input signal to the output signal on the amp. If the amp is designed to alter the output signal in a way that is within the human hearing range than yes it will sound different. The question for the each person is, Do you want it to sound different than it was originally recorded?
> 
> What I truly believe people are hearing when they change out any piece of electronic equipment in there car is differences in Gain structure or noise levels that alter volume in a way that makes a person think things sound better or worse. Its common for people to think a small gain boost on a tweeter to sound bright or to some more detailed. I have yet to find to different brands of amplifiers that use the exact same gain setting to match each other. Lets face it different amplifiers can be slightly different in design, but the end result should be that the output signal should just be amplified and not intentionally altered by design when compared to the input signal.
> 
> I would truly I like to setup a test at Autosound 2000 using the best Car audio install we can find. Then have as many "Golden Ears" type people see if they can pick out a difference between two amplifiers 12 out of 12 times.
> I'm really tired of hearing people say they can hear a difference in a car between amplifiers that have specs below the human hearing range. Please remember for these tests, amps with outputs that don't match the input would either be thrown out or modified so they do match.
> 
> I think I just wrote this post to avoid going out in the garage and getting some work done. Man I feel lazy today....


I've wanted a modern day test like this for a while, but doubt any "audiophiles" would agree to take part. The thought that a $3K amp would be indistinguishable from a $300 one is just too much to bear.

I believe DS-21 put together a few tests for some people who thought they could tell the difference between their amp and his cheap model. I think DS-21 won their amps in the process.


----------



## ALL4SQ

rain27 said:


> I've wanted a modern day test like this for a while, but doubt any "audiophiles" would agree to take part. The thought that a $3K amp would be indistinguishable from a $300 one is just too much to bear.
> 
> I believe DS-21 put together a few tests for some people who thought they could tell the difference between their amp and his cheap model. I think DS-21 won their amps in the process.


Nice! I never thought about making it a pink slip kind of challenge. Great Idea.

One thing I forgot to say, I wouldn't allow the listener Volume control. I would want the volume matched between the two amps at a pre-selcted level like maybe 80db. I would think this might help in hearing real differences maybe. I just think if your moving the volume around while listening that it could make you think your hearing things that might not really be there.


----------



## asota

October 15, 2007 7:26 AM PDT 
Do all amplifiers sound alike?
by Steve Guttenberg PrintE-mail.10 comments Share
A reader wrote asking the age old question--Do all amplifiers sound alike? "Mr. Guttenberg, I've been enjoying what you write about since I am a budding audiophile. A guy I know claims that amplifiers do not alter the quality of the sound and pointed me to a web site with a $10,000 challenge by Richard Clark that states that the human ear cannot discern the differences between amplifiers. What are your feelings on the subject and do you think there is any merit to this man's challenge?"

Well, I do believe that there are important differences between the sound of amplifiers. To my ears the better tube amps sound warmer and more like the sound of live music than solid state amps, but really good solid-state amps sound more detailed and have better defined bass than tube designs. Cheap amps can sound hard and crude--they tend to add an aggressive edge to the sound of music that high-end designs do not. More objectively, better designs are more powerful and have an easier time driving "difficult' speakers or "low" impedance speakers.

I definitely hear differences, but I'm not all that interested in proving that to non-believers--hell, some people argue about whether they can taste the difference between Coke and Pepsi. I've heard some folks can't taste the difference between chocolate and vanilla in blind tests. Some have a hard time differentiating between Bud and Miller and Coors and Michelob and Pabst beers. Talk about people who have too much time on their hands.

Back to audio and blind testing, I find the stress of being put on the spot to prove my ears skews the results. Please understand, I've heard countless "sighted" comparisons and sure, many amps really do sound similar. Actually, the least effective way to evaluate electronics is to switch back and forth between two designs; I much prefer to just live with the unknown amp for a while, say a week, get used to it, and then return to the original familiar amp. That approach can really highlight the sonic differences between amps. 

. 
Steve Guttenberg


----------



## rain27

asota said:


> October 15, 2007 7:26 AM PDT
> Do all amplifiers sound alike?
> by Steve Guttenberg PrintE-mail.10 comments Share
> A reader wrote asking the age old question--Do all amplifiers sound alike? "Mr. Guttenberg, I've been enjoying what you write about since I am a budding audiophile. A guy I know claims that amplifiers do not alter the quality of the sound and pointed me to a web site with a $10,000 challenge by Richard Clark that states that the human ear cannot discern the differences between amplifiers. What are your feelings on the subject and do you think there is any merit to this man's challenge?"
> 
> Well, I do believe that there are important differences between the sound of amplifiers. To my ears the better tube amps sound warmer and more like the sound of live music than solid state amps, but really good solid-state amps sound more detailed and have better defined bass than tube designs. Cheap amps can sound hard and crude--they tend to add an aggressive edge to the sound of music that high-end designs do not. More objectively, better designs are more powerful and have an easier time driving "difficult' speakers or "low" impedance speakers.
> 
> I definitely hear differences, but I'm not all that interested in proving that to non-believers--hell, some people argue about whether they can taste the difference between Coke and Pepsi. I've heard some folks can't taste the difference between chocolate and vanilla in blind tests. Some have a hard time differentiating between Bud and Miller and Coors and Michelob and Pabst beers. Talk about people who have too much time on their hands.
> 
> Back to audio and blind testing, I find the stress of being put on the spot to prove my ears skews the results. Please understand, I've heard countless "sighted" comparisons and sure, many amps really do sound similar. Actually, the least effective way to evaluate electronics is to switch back and forth between two designs; I much prefer to just live with the unknown amp for a while, say a week, get used to it, and then return to the original familiar amp. That approach can really highlight the sonic differences between amps.
> 
> .
> Steve Guttenberg


Audiophiles can not on the one hand say that there are very distinct differences between amps and then on the other say that they would not be very good at telling one apart from another in a blind test. 

The pressure is just too much?

What this tells me is that the differences between level matched amps are so subtle that telling them apart bears no confidence at all.


----------



## Kpg2713

Seriously? It is the easiest to highlight differences between something and another when you can switch back and forth at will. Time fades the memory of things and if you can't tell the difference right away, chances are there isn't one.


----------



## ALL4SQ

I think if Steve Guttenberg was getting paid to write an article on why amps sound different it would probably be five pages long and fulll of stuff 80% of people wouldn't understand. But in this case because he probably wasn't getting paid his Snake oil fee, he kept his answer simple. So simple in fact it doesn't really make since....


----------



## ChrisB

For most 12 volt amplifiers, I have been able to tell differences due to the following:

1. The amplifier was "modified" or intentionally biased towards class A from the manufacturer. In many cases, these amplifiers will exhibit that warm rich sound due to more distortion. Imagine that, some people like the amplifiers because they have audible distortion that produces a unique sonic signature causing them to hear things they never heard before. 

2. I've also owned 12v amplifiers that cheated by having a pre-programmed equal loudness contour. IIRC, my circa 1989 Punch 150s all had a bump at 45 Hz and 12 kHz even with the knobs at zero. While I liked them for subwoofer amplifiers back in the day, I always preferred something else for my mids and highs because I found the treble to be atrocious. 

Now, back to the topic at hand, if two amplifiers measure within 1 dB of each other over the audible spectrum, I highly doubt one will be able to tell a difference between them at output levels well below clipping. This goes double in a vehicle that can have a noise floor as low as 60 decibels to as high as 95 decibels while in motion.


----------



## Kpg2713

ChrisB said:


> For most 12 volt amplifiers, I have been able to tell differences due to the following:
> 
> 1. The amplifier was "modified" or intentionally biased towards class A from the manufacturer. In many cases, these amplifiers will exhibit that warm rich sound due to more distortion. Imagine that, some people like the amplifiers because they have audible distortion that produces a unique sonic signature causing them to hear things they never heard before.
> 
> 2. I've also owned 12v amplifiers that cheated by having a pre-programmed equal loudness contour. IIRC, my circa 1989 Punch 150s all had a bump at 45 Hz and 12 kHz even with the knobs at zero. While I liked them for subwoofer amplifiers back in the day, I always preferred something else for my mids and highs because I found the treble to be atrocious.
> 
> Now, back to the topic at hand, *if two amplifiers measure within 1 dB of each other over the audible spectrum, I highly doubt one will be able to tell a difference between them at output levels well below clipping. This goes double in a vehicle that can have a noise floor as low as 60 decibels *to as high as 95 decibels while in motion.



.... and done!


----------



## mikelh2010

ChrisB said:


> You should have seen the look on his face when I showed him that it was the SAME amplifier in his system just tuned properly.


ABSOLUTELY!!!! tuning is everything...i generally dont like to pat myself on he back...BUT....ive had so many cars come into my shop that had systems that were installed by a friend....gains cranked....bass boost all the way up and they put in the stupid knob......I'd neaten wires and re-tune everything from the head back...these guys would swear they had a whole new system.....


----------



## The A Train

The answer to the question is yes and no. Yes a watt is a watt. A watt is a measurement of power. Its just like saying and inch is an inch or a gallon is a gallon. The main difference between amps are their linearity. Linearity is the ability to recreate the input signal accuratly. This is where amp classes come into play. 

Class A is by far the most linear. Though these amps are not very efficient. They can recreate the input signal better than any other, but they generate a lot of heat! Usually so much that it isn't suitable for the car environment. 

Class A/B is less linear than class A, but not my a large margin. It is more suitable for car use because it is much more effiecient than class A. 

Class C can actually have a maximum efficiency of 100% and is very linear, but the kicker here is that it is only good for a handful of frequencies. These amps are used mainly for radio broadcasts because they need all the power they can get to transmit their radio frequency as far as possible.


----------



## davidsw

i prommis you put a 100 watt rockwood up against a 100 watt linear power with same speakers and the rockwood would fold quick.


----------



## ryan s

davidsw said:


> i prommis you put a 100 watt rockwood up against a 100 watt linear power with same speakers and the rockwood would fold quick.


"Prommis"? :laugh:



davidsw said:


> A WATT IS NOT A WATT..SO STOP IT ALREADY


Sure it is.


----------



## davidsw

ok it is a watt. 10 ft is 10ft. but its 10ft of what...i say crap. so a watt of a bad amp is a bad watt. a watt from a good amp is a good watt.my son is a good boy but my friends son is a bad boy.but they are both boys.


----------



## rain27

I think I know why Lycan doesn't come around here anymore.


----------



## davidsw

ok i think we need to through the freedom of speech thing out the window.....


----------



## ryan s

A trucking company has one ton of feathers delivered and they are waiting on one ton of bricks to arrive. Which is heavier?

A watt is a watt is a watt for the precise reason that the little electric particles don't have a choice on how to interact with each other. They have a singular purpose.


----------



## The A Train

davidsw said:


> ok it is a watt. 10 ft is 10ft. but its 10ft of what...i say crap. so a watt of a bad amp is a bad watt. a watt from a good amp is a good watt.my son is a good boy but my friends son is a bad boy.but they are both boys.


A watt is a unit of measurement not a medium. Your explaination of a "good watt" and a "bad watt" is like saying a good and a bad foot. They are both units of measurements, not mediums. Like i said previously, the main deciding factors will be the amp's class. No not all amps within their class are the same. Frequency responses, circuit topology, quality of components, etc. I can go on an on about the millions of differences in amps, but it is the amps ability to accuratly recreate the input signal that will cause an audible sound difference.


----------



## davidsw

your right.some times i just say things that i think might be funny but most of the time they are not.i have no idea what makes a good watt or a bad one eather im trying to learn something like the other guy.I just no what i hear and it seams like every one else uses there own definition of a watt.who is right out of 20000000000 people.


----------



## AAAAAAA

Ear memory is not something you can trust for one. 2 if there was indeed a difference it is likely simply that one amp is set louder then the other (not level matched), or noise floor or some sort of built in undefeatable eq.


----------



## davidsw

ok so i baught a cheap lightning audio 75x2.it got pretty loud,it sounded ok but kinda hallow.then i hooked up my linear 652iq to the verry same set up and the 652 is only 32.5 x2. well that amp was loud but not as, and it did not have a hollow sound.it sounded more clear and crisp.so why did the 32.5 watts sound almost louder and more clear than the 75x2 ?


----------



## AAAAAAA

^ How do you know the ratings are accurate? Was one ran outside it's comfort zone? Were you aware what amp was playing during your listening?

The first 2 you don't know.
The last one of course you did and just knowing will alter the results.

Your above scenario is the usual case that proves nothing.


----------



## davidsw

I dont think you are paying attention to my question.the 75x2 i ran with the gain at full and the adjustments on my hu i left alone.i pulled it out.so now the 75 is not in use.instead the 32.5 is installed now and has replaced the 75x2 so just with my ears the 32.5 sounds way better and is almost as loud.why is that? its not an argument im starting but its a question i would like answerd.


----------



## t3sn4f2

How watts will always be watts.........

"You got to know _when_ to hold 'em, know _when_ to fold 'em"


----------



## davidsw

your right but i was trying to learn somthing.but like what was posted before,i could make the cheap amp sound better with a eq.i just was trying to understand why some amps cost more and sound better than others.


----------



## AAAAAAA

davidsw said:


> I dont think you are paying attention to my question...


I know exactly what your claim is, it's the same everyone else makes.

Reread what I wrote until it sinks in.


----------



## rain27

davidsw said:


> your right but i was trying to learn somthing.but like what was posted before,i could make the cheap amp sound better with a eq.i just was trying to understand why some amps cost more and sound better than others.


I guess I could rephrase was AAAAAAA already stated...

If you know what amplifiers you're listening to, it is no longer an objective test. Whether you know it or not, there is a bias that will play a role in what amp you think sounds better.

Power numbers of certain amps are rated inaccurately. PPI in the old days would sell an $800 amp rated at 25 watts per channel. Some cheap brand would invariably rate their amp at 125 watts per channel. So when you listened to the PPI, you would think these 25 watts were so clean they sounded better than those 125 dirty watts!

There are some guys around here that can administer a double blind test with two amps of similar specs and if you're confident enough in being able to choose which is which, they might be up for it. But be prepared to lose your amp in the process.


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## X-runner

I'd have a lot more money in my bank account if all amps sounded the same.


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## Hillbilly SQ

My amp sounds better than your amp


----------



## subwoofery

Hillbilly SQ said:


> My amp sounds better than your amp


You wish...  

Kelvin


----------



## jester

From reading this post I am getting that a new Sony or PowerBass amp is just as good as an old school Zapco or Xtant amp under the right conditions. Boy if that was the case I would sell my brand new Xtants and go to Walmart and buy some Sony amps. 

THD and all the other spec numbers play a huge number in an amp but there are so many more factors to be considered: type of speaker, number of speakers, type of car, wiring, etc. 

Is there a difference in types of amps: Yes
Can you hear a difference: Yes
Is that what makes amps more expensive than others: Definitely


----------



## Southnash

I agree you can make amps sound very close with ALOT of testing, equipment.....99% of us don't do this....

Put a Sony xplod amp and a Arc Audio SE amp in a car....match the gains for same output wattage and set the crossover the same...... then use a high end pair of speakers (Utopia, Hybrid)..

Could you tell the difference???

I HOPE SO!!! If you can't, lucky you!!! My ears actually work!!

That's what makes amplifiers different to us....im not going to do extensive testing to save a few hundred dollars....

Then add in the poor unstable electrical systems we use....

I don't listen to my CAR amp in the home, lab or. Connected to thousands of $$$$ test equipment....its a car!!

Of course any speaker fed the exact same signal, it will sound the same...but off the shelf amps are not the same, especially just setting gain + crossover, nothing else....


Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## ChrisB

Before I show how they measure with Rightmark Audio Analyzer, does anyone think that a Zapco Z100S2 measures differently from a Rockford Fosgate Power 351s? Come on, tell me which is better and why!


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## Southnash

I want to know in car response, with speakers connected....low volume, high volume. Different amps react differently....set gains, set crossover and blind test.....this is what matters right? If this was NOT true then let's all go out to walmart and we could all have sq chapionship vehicles......



Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## chad

Southnash said:


> I want to know *in car response*,


Do you have any evidence to prove that an amplifier will have a different "response" inside or outside of a vehicle?


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## rain27

Southnash said:


> I want to know in car response, with speakers connected....low volume, high volume. Different amps react differently....set gains, set crossover and blind test.....this is what matters right? If this was NOT true then let's all go out to walmart and we could all have sq chapionship vehicles......
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Since when does an amp know it's in a vehicle?

And why go to the extreme with Walmart amps? Any reasonable test would be between two amps with similar specs.


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## Southnash

I don't.. I know our memory sucks in a car if I remove a zillion watt Sony and replace it with a JL, Arc or other good amp....same "wattage" will I hear a difference??

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Southnash

rain27 said:


> Since when does an amp know it's in a vehicle?
> 
> And why go to the extreme with Walmart amps? Any reasonable test would be between two amps with similar specs.


Lack of stable voltage/amperage...

Two amps, same price, similar design it might be hard to tell....but a pyle amp at 500w (rated at 3k) will sound the same as a Arc ks500.1 if outputs are level matched? On music? Running full tilt?

Just asking....

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## AAAAAAA

Southnash said:


> I agree you can make amps sound very close with ALOT of testing, equipment.....99% of us don't do this....
> 
> Put a Sony xplod amp and a Arc Audio SE amp in a car....match the gains for same output wattage and set the crossover the same...... then use a high end pair of speakers (Utopia, Hybrid)..
> 
> Could you tell the difference???
> 
> I HOPE SO!!! If you can't, lucky you!!! My ears actually work!!
> 
> That's what makes amplifiers different to us....im not going to do extensive testing to save a few hundred dollars....
> 
> Then add in the poor unstable electrical systems we use....
> 
> I don't listen to my CAR amp in the home, lab or. Connected to thousands of $$$$ test equipment....its a car!!
> 
> Of course any speaker fed the exact same signal, it will sound the same...but off the shelf amps are not the same, especially just setting gain + crossover, nothing else....
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Oh well there we are, the definitive answer hahaha.

Ever notice you can make the same amp sound different? yeah....


----------



## ChrisB

Here is how they measure, within .2 decibels of one another:










Note: I included the Countryman Direct Box as a reference to ensure that my results were not skewed due to the fact that I measure through the direct box.

Here are the results with the RF versus the Zapco:









I'd like to know how one's ears would "hear" a difference between those two amplifiers in a motorized vehicle at speed driving down the interstate.:laugh:


----------



## subwoofery

ChrisB said:


> Here is how they measure, within .2 decibels of one another:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Note: I included the Countryman Direct Box as a reference to ensure that my results were not skewed due to the fact that I measure through the direct box.
> 
> Here are the results with the RF versus the Zapco:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to know how one's ears would "hear" a difference between those two amplifiers in a motorized vehicle at speed driving down the interstate.:laugh:


How's distorsion over the whole spectrum? 

What I'm asking here is to see distorsion figures from 20Hz to 20kHz. That's where I saw a big difference between amps. What's interesting is above 1kHz really. 

Kelvin


----------



## ChrisB

subwoofery said:


> How's distorsion over the whole spectrum?
> 
> What I'm asking here is to see distorsion figures from 20Hz to 20kHz. That's where I saw a big difference between amps. What's interesting is above 1kHz really.
> 
> Kelvin


Is this what you are looking for?

Countryman Type 85 Direct Box:









Z100s2:









Power 351s:


----------



## AAAAAAA

Subwoofery: your spec sheet of amps were all way under what humans can make out. It's pretty irrelevant.

Nice post chrisb , of course we can see coming from a mile away that fr can't possibly show us what they can hear, it's "immeasurable". 

Ever make the link that alot of the people here are blindly religious... They like to believe some things can't be explained, believing vs knowing becomes their hobby.

Did I cross a line?


----------



## ChrisB

AAAAAAA said:


> Subwoofery: your spec sheet of amps were all way under what humans can make out. It's pretty irrelevant.
> 
> Nice post chrisb , of course we can see coming from a mile away that fr can't possibly show us what they can hear, it's "immeasurable".
> 
> Ever make the link that alot of the people here are blindly religious... They like to believe some things can't be explained, believing vs knowing becomes their hobby.
> 
> Did I cross a line?


Better watch it, next you will be labeled a hater like me. 

I once commented that a certain amp colored the sound through a frequency response mistake and added distortion. I won't say what brand, make, or model this amplifier is, but I will laugh at those who say things such as: I heard so much detail that I never heard in my music after switching to this amplifier...










They called me crazy when I said "Congratulations, you like colored sound through distortion and a pre-programmed EQ curve."

Well... looks like I was right!:laugh:


----------



## ryan s

subwoofery said:


> You wish...
> 
> Kelvin


Bet amps on it? 



AAAAAAA said:


> Ever notice you can make the same amp sound different? yeah....


True believers =


----------



## subwoofery

ChrisB said:


> Is this what you are looking for?
> 
> Countryman Type 85 Direct Box:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Z100s2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Power 351s:


Spectrum type is different but I think this is what I wanted. 

Here's my post on the matter. Still did not get much discussion regarding the pics I posted: 
Warm, Clinical or just in my head? lol 

Above 1kHz is what I feel make one amp sound different. 

When speaking about speakers, it's known that distorsion makes 1 driver warmer in sound than another... Why would it be different for amps? 
Maybe I'm wrong but there's so many people that like to think that Audison amps are warmer than most brands. 
It's true that it is hard to hear distorsion up to 3% but what if (I have no information to back this up) your brain could pick the information it receives from your ears and translate it as being a warmer sound. The brain is a powerful tool and can differenciate a difference in timing of just a few ms - is it that hard to believe that it can hear differences in distorsion amps. 


Kelvin


----------



## chad

when it comes to how an amp really sounds there are only 2 watts, or fractions of watt that count IMHO.... The first one or fraction, and the one after it hits the rails or fraction of one.


----------



## AAAAAAA

subwoofery said:


> Spectrum type is different but I think this is what I wanted.
> 
> Here's my post on the matter. Still did not get much discussion regarding the pics I posted:
> Warm, Clinical or just in my head? lol
> 
> Above 1kHz is what I feel make one amp sound different.
> 
> When speaking about speakers, it's known that distorsion makes 1 driver warmer in sound than another... Why would it be different for amps?
> Maybe I'm wrong but there's so many people that like to think that Audison amps are warmer than most brands.
> It's true that it is hard to hear distorsion up to 3% but what if (I have no information to back this up) your brain could pick the information it receives from your ears and translate it as being a warmer sound. The brain is a powerful tool and can differenciate a difference in timing of just a few ms - is it that hard to believe that it can hear differences in distorsion amps.
> 
> 
> Kelvin


 just like our brain can make us see tiny things like a virus or microbes if you practice alot at looking... And this would be believable because our brain is powerful he he 

I crack myself up


----------



## hdrugs

that $10k reward test is all good and so i was reading a the article on it and there was a mention of a tube amp, so does this mean tube amps only have superior even order harmonics whens they are push to clipping?

so when they are running below clipping and frequency response are matched with a solid state they will to be some what audible?


----------



## upgrayedd

The argument will never end. I think the facts are that fr, distortion, and how an amp clips, all have some effect on sound. Different amps do these things differently, therefore they can sound different, but not due to some high end voodoo. 

Buying an amp that meets its specs, has MORE power than you need, and setting it up properly can make a huge difference. I realized how a change in nothing but power can change entire system dynamics. In my old accord I ran a component set and a single 12 off of an Adcom 4304. It sounded fine, but I decided to swap it out for a 4404, mainly to get a little more from the sub. The changes to the entire system were noticeable, even below full tilt. Was the 4404 of higher quality or of a different topology? Nope. Did I raise the available power and reduce distortion and or clipping during dynamic passages? makes more sense.


----------



## Linear Power

all amps on the same brand sound quite the same whatever the watt is. But with different brand, the sound color will be different. This is not valid on todays made in China Amps that has a lot of brand but has the same inside.


----------



## sqnut

hdrugs said:


> that $10k reward test is all good and so i was reading a the article on it and there was a mention of a tube amp, so does this mean tube amps only have superior even order harmonics whens they are push to clipping?
> 
> so when they are running below clipping and frequency response are matched with a solid state they will to be some what audible?


Tube amps sound different because they have higher distortion at the lower end and the highs are rolled off. That's what gives these amps the characteristic 'warm' sound.


----------



## chad

the rolled off highs are a myth.... every tube amp I have here plays well past the filters on a CD player in terms of HF.


----------



## The A Train

I agree with chad, the amps I have tested don't roll off till 80-90khz.


----------



## sqshoestring

My experience with tubes is either they color the sound all the time or don't, and they basically soft clip which seems to be the big factor in the warm sound. IMO linear power amps sort of do this and I think is why so many like them.

After running a few 4x50 and a 4x70 and 4x75 in my car, I slapped a 4x125 in and it was about the same to about 75% volume but above that it was cleaner and more dynamic. Really showed how far I was into clipping with the smaller amps. The comps are not very efficient they need this power level, works nice now. Could tell no difference from those class AB to this class D, but its a new model class D not an older one.


----------



## whoever

just for fun I thought I would post this from a thread I started a long time ago... its Richard Clark testing various amps...

the document that came with the cd...
http://s714.photobucket.com/home/whoeveriam/tag/amplifier test


this is the link to upload the cd where Richard Clark is testing 3 amplifiers a JL Audio, a Jensen (run off of a GM alternator and battery) and a 120V tube amplifier the amplifiers are level matched to withn 1/4db of eachother...
you'll need something to unzip the file, i used winzip
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ISZ7GV5U


----------



## envisionelec

sqnut said:


> Tube amps sound different because they have higher distortion at the lower end and the highs are rolled off. That's what gives these amps the characteristic 'warm' sound.


Not even close.  Some tube amps have a rather high output impedance which causes the midbass "hump" of a dB or two, but the majority of them amps sound just like their solid state cousins until clipping. Tube amplifiers (as a rule) do "soft" clip. It basically means that the waveform is compressed before a hard clip so that it enters clipping gracefully. When viewed on an oscilloscope, the peaks are rounded, initially, and full of odd-harmonics which has been found to be more pleasing to the ear than even-harmonics.

sqshoestring: No solid-state amplifier performs a "soft" clip without additional compression circuitry to emulate the tube response. I am of the opinion that manufacturers should be putting defeatable compression devices in car amplifiers - and I'm surprised that it is not more widespread than the one or two that do (or have).


----------



## ChrisB

envisionelec said:


> I am of the opinion that manufacturers should be putting defeatable compression devices in car amplifiers - and I'm surprised that it is not more widespread than the one or two that do (or have).


I always wondered why 12v amplifiers didn't utilize something similar to Peavey's DDT circuit to control clipping. It seems like a fairly easy option for a manufacturer to implement, and just think of all the "audiophiles" who would jump on that bandwagon.


----------



## sqnut

chad said:


> the rolled off highs are a myth.... every tube amp I have here plays well past the filters on a CD player in terms of HF.


Upon reading up some more, yes you're right.


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## The Baron Groog

whoever said:


> just for fun I thought I would post this from a thread I started a long time ago... its Richard Clark testing various amps...
> 
> the document that came with the cd...
> Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket test
> 
> 
> this is the link to upload the cd where Richard Clark is testing 3 amplifiers a JL Audio, a Jensen (run off of a GM alternator and battery) and a 120V tube amplifier the amplifiers are level matched to withn 1/4db of eachother...
> you'll need something to unzip the file, i used winzip
> NOTICE


Just went to megaupload and got this-hope they don't try to do me for copying their image:


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## minbari

a little off topic, but I bet the racketeering and money laundering charges are what gotthe feds attention more than the copyright infringement, lol.


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## putergod

Richard Clark's "challenge" is a sham. Amplifiers do NOT sound the same! When he goes in and makes all those adjustments to make two very different niches of amplifiers meter exactly the same, you are no longer comparing two amplifiers, but instead, two signals set with the sole purpose to sound the same. In this scenario, yes, it will sound the same. If the signal IS the exact same, it will sound the exact same. Making ANY adjustments to the input signal so that when it comes out of one amp will be identical to the signal from the other amp is NOT comparing apples to apples, as he puts it. He claims that two completely different amps sound the same, yet he has to MAKE them sound the same, because they DON'T!
Amplifiers sound different because they are made differently. If all amps of equal, true, wattage sounded identical, there would be no high dollar, over engineered amps in the world! Everyone would just make cheap amps because hey, they all sound the same! It would be a hell of a lot easier on the manufactures and us buyers that way, now wouldn't it?! 
I have had cheap amps, and they sound like GARBAGE, even at low volumes. Noisy, uneven frequency response, harsh, etc. A lot goes into making a quality amp that sounds good, and I am not referring to EQing. Crap amps sound like crap. Good amps sound good.


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## rain27

putergod said:


> Richard Clark's "challenge" is a sham. Amplifiers do NOT sound the same! When he goes in and makes all those adjustments to make two very different niches of amplifiers meter exactly the same, you are no longer comparing two amplifiers, but instead, two signals set with the sole purpose to sound the same. In this scenario, yes, it will sound the same. If the signal IS the exact same, it will sound the exact same. Making ANY adjustments to the input signal so that when it comes out of one amp will be identical to the signal from the other amp is NOT comparing apples to apples, as he puts it. He claims that two completely different amps sound the same, yet he has to MAKE them sound the same, because they DON'T!
> Amplifiers sound different because they are made differently. If all amps of equal, true, wattage sounded identical, there would be no high dollar, over engineered amps in the world! Everyone would just make cheap amps because hey, they all sound the same! It would be a hell of a lot easier on the manufactures and us buyers that way, now wouldn't it?!
> I have had cheap amps, and they sound like GARBAGE, even at low volumes. Noisy, uneven frequency response, harsh, etc. A lot goes into making a quality amp that sounds good, and I am not referring to EQing. Crap amps sound like crap. Good amps sound good.


If you can admit that two amps can be made to sound the same, then Richard Clark has conveyed his message.

Therefore, if you can make a $200 amp sound like a $2,000 one, why would you ever purchase the $2,000 for any reason other than prestige?

Further, if a company can convince you that their $2,000 amp sounds better than a $200 amp, they'll be more than happy to sell it to you. There is plenty of motivation to do so.


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## putergod

rain27 said:


> If you can admit that two amps can be made to sound the same, then Richard Clark has conveyed his message.
> 
> Therefore, if you can make a $200 amp sound like a $2,000 one, why would you ever purchase the $2,000 for any reason other than prestige?
> 
> Further, if a company can convince you that their $2,000 amp sounds better than a $200 amp, they'll be more than happy to sell it to you. There is plenty of motivation to do so.


I must respectively disagree. If you have to put processors in front of an inferior amp, and adjust it into oblivion, to get nearly the same, nearly perfect, signal that the $2000 amp can produce natively, then the inferior amp is indeed inferior, and a piece of crap. I don't want to purchase $2000 worth of processing equipment to counteract the crappy signal of the crappy amp. I'll just buy the $2000 amp and be happy knowing that I not only have an amp that actually sounds good, on it's own, but also an amp that is built far better, and will therefor last much much longer while still sounding great.


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## goodstuff

putergod said:


> I must respectively disagree. If you have to put processors in front of an inferior amp, and adjust it into oblivion, to get nearly the same, nearly perfect, signal that the $2000 amp can produce natively, then the inferior amp is indeed inferior, and a piece of crap. I don't want to purchase $2000 worth of processing equipment to counteract the crappy signal of the crappy amp. I'll just buy the $2000 amp and be happy knowing that I not only have an amp that actually sounds good, on it's own, but also an amp that is built far better, and will therefor last much much longer while still sounding great.


Agreed. The main issue with his challenge is that the amps are all tweaked to make them the same, then no **** they sound the same.


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## Earzbleed

Too many variables for me to comment about the different amps I've used in my cars but......When my NAD home amp gave up the ghost, I bought a Yamaha to replace it and I can't hear any difference. Same speakers - JBL L1's - nothing else changed, same sound as before. The only difference that I can discern is the Yamaha amp has more features


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## ChrisB

putergod said:


> I must respectively disagree. If you have to put processors in front of an inferior amp, and adjust it into oblivion, to get nearly the same, nearly perfect, signal that the $2000 amp can produce natively, then the inferior amp is indeed inferior, and a piece of crap. I don't want to purchase $2000 worth of processing equipment to counteract the crappy signal of the crappy amp. I'll just buy the $2000 amp and be happy knowing that I not only have an amp that actually sounds good, on it's own, but also an amp that is built far better, and will therefor last much much longer while still sounding great.


This reminds me of one magazine test done some time ago where the participants chose a Pioneer amplifier over the high dollar, custom, eargasmic, audiophile amplifiers. Then there was another test where the participants couldn't even tell which amplifier they were listening to with any form statistical significance in a double blind test. The thing that really stands out in both of these tests was that NOTHING was done to make the amplifiers measure the same!

I know I am sounding like a broken record when I say this but I go for power in a given footprint, quality, and price. If I wanted to switch back to a single amp, I'd run another JL Audio HD900/5 tomorrow and wouldn't think twice about it. In fact, I may go back to a single 900/5 before all is said and done. Either that or the MMATS 6 channel.


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## 14642

A couple of additional points:

Richard's etst was not intended to suggest that a 200 dollar amp and a 2000 dollar amp are the same. It was designed to prove that marketing hooey about matched parts, gold boards, and other Tom-foolery was, in fact, Tom-Foolery. One unclipped watt is one unclipped watt. 

Now, if you like the expensive amp better, if it includes features that you require, if you want to purchase it because you think it's cool, if it's likely to last longer, or IF IT SOUNDS BETTER WHEN DRIVEN INTO CLIPPING, then you should buy it. But you shouldn't buy it because of some mystical marketing ******** claim that because "we love audio more than the other guys and because our amps are art and cannot be truly appreciated by anyone not endowed with higher sensory perception."

With all that said, Richard had a tendency to call out ******** without offering an alternative solution or additional explanation, and that often created misunderstanding and controversy. 

Second, tube amplifiers don't intrinsically have a midbass hump. Any amplifier with a high output impedance ATTENUATES the range of frequencies where the speaker system's impedance approaches the output impedance of the amplifier. At resonance, there will be less attenuation because the speaker's impedance is higher. This is easier to hear in a home system where the woofer in a floor-standing speaker plays MUCH higher than resonance and the entire frequency range is driven by a single amp. It is more difficult to hear in a car where we often use a lower subwoofer crossover point and the midbass and midrange are crossed close to their resonance.


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## asawendo

Thank you for the explanation Andy...I remember Richard Clark put some resistor in one transistor amp in order to matching impedance of the tube amp. So they sound very similar one another in comparison!

But the funny thing is according to David Navone explanation in Car Audio and Electronic Forum, Richard love tube amps! He owned McIntosh MC275 Vaccum tube amp IIRC.


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## asawendo

Moral of the story is we must know that sound reproduction is pure technical and far from mystical, but how we valued some audio equipment as an art is different story! This is why I love DIYMA very much. I can get the best of both world.


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## thehatedguy

RC's test was the Carver amp challenge...and it basically stated that if two amps measure the same, then they will sound the same. It was cool what Bob Carver did...and even cooler it was publised in Stereophile magazine back in the day.

And yeah, RC said he had a big soft spot for old Mcintosh tube gear.


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