# need help tuning my pioneer deh-80prs with my subwoofer



## shadowm891 (Apr 13, 2014)

Ever since i bought my pioneer deh-80prs cd player about a month ago i have been messing around with it understanding what each setting dose and fine tuning everything on a 3 way active setup. Now i got the door speakers tune in for the way i like them but i am still having a hard time getting my subwoofer to play the way it should play. As fare as my settings are under my network mode. 

hpf - 4k 12db 
mid hpf - 125 12db 
mid lpf - 3.5k 12db
lpf - 80hz 24db 
auto eq - turn off
auto ta - turn off
loudness - turn on
eq- flat
source level +3

alpine pdx-f6 4 channel amp settings - crossover set to pass
jl audio 25/1 amp settings - crossover set to full with rca deck running into the input jack with the filter freq [hz] turn all the way to max.


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## jonah1810 (Apr 16, 2015)

When you say that aren't playing the way they should, what do you mean? Not loud enough? Not tight bass? I haven't used the loudness feature, but maybe that has something to do with it. 

What subs do you have? 
What size and type of box do you have?


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## shadowm891 (Apr 13, 2014)

the sub is not beating hard at all like it did before switch deck's. the sub is a sundown audio sa-10 in a custom built 1.095 cubic foot box tune 35hz. I never really try turning off loudness because when i do everything gets so quiet. now i did try turning up the subwoofer level but after gettings close to like 9 or so the sub started to sound like crap but never got much louder.


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## jonah1810 (Apr 16, 2015)

shadowm891 said:


> the sub is not beating hard at all like it did before switch deck's. the sub is a sundown audio sa-10 in a custom built 1.095 cubic foot box tune 35hz. I never really try turning off loudness because when i do everything gets so quiet.


Did you reset your gains after you swapped it out? Maybe have a bass boost of some sort on the old deck?


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## shadowm891 (Apr 13, 2014)

no i left the settings the same the only thing i did was set the crossover to full.the old deck was a eclipse cd5030 and it never had bass boost or anything like that.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Always reset the gain after swapping out HU's.


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## shadowm891 (Apr 13, 2014)

alright then i'll do that then


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

How have you used the time alignment?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Yeah phase and time alignment can cause cancellation with the sub. And I remember Eclipse units having pretty strong outputs so the amp gains probably just need to be turned up a little. And the LOUD function should ONLY be used when the headunit is at LOW volume to help compensate for the non-linearity of our hearing over the volume range.


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## shadowm891 (Apr 13, 2014)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Yeah phase and time alignment can cause cancellation with the sub. And I remember Eclipse units having pretty strong outputs so the amp gains probably just need to be turned up a little. And the LOUD function should ONLY be used when the headunit is at LOW volume to help compensate for the non-linearity of our hearing over the volume range.


when i turn off loudness everything becomes quiet any ideal as to why this happens ?. and another thing would you please explain to me what is phase you speak of sorry i'm a little new to all the sq stuff ?


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## jonah1810 (Apr 16, 2015)

shadowm891 said:


> when i turn off loudness everything becomes quiet any ideal as to why this happens ?. and another thing would you please explain to me what is phase you speak of sorry i'm a little new to all the sq stuff ?


Because your headunit had different preput voltage, re set your gains and you shouldn't have a problem. 

Phase is referring to the sound waves, if they are completely in phase they will blend together so to speak. But if they are out of phase 90 degrees they will cancel eachother because the waves aren't lining up with eachother. When a speaker makes noise it pushes the cone out, and then backwards, the sound that comes from when the speaker goes backwards is 90 degrees out of phase with the sound waves coming out of the front of the speaker. 

So if you time align wrong, your speakers will cancel eachother out. Just try going into your time alignment and move the one speaker far apart in time alignment then the other. You'll hear it go really quiet.


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

the prs80 has an excellent loudness feature, i say use it. the loud function
gradually phases out as the volume is turned up anyways. USE IT. 

why the revulsion to use EQ ?
there are 32 bands of eq to use ! ( 16 left & 16 right ). 
dont be afraid to use this very powerful feature. 

my prs80 is set up with the loudness ON, and every single band of the eq is 
used. the eq is such a powerful feature i dont understand why anyone wouldnt
take advantage of it. 
just because you may be looking for the flattest sound does not mean the eq
should not be used.

also : have you gone into sub network three and tried reversing the phase of the sub ?


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

Please be careful with your use of EQ. I can tell already with use of Loudness feature and source level +3 that you will be boosting lots of things. This can lead to clipping and ultimately blown speakers. Clipping is what you are hearing when the subs started to sound bad but not louder. When in doubt reduce frequencies with EQ if possible instead of boosting. Also look a little closer at your crossovers, having gaps is not always a bad thing but keep playing with them and phase first. Your current gap between mid and subs is in a region where a lot of "impact" of bass comes from. If you are having a phase cancelation here it will certainly cause what you are describing. It may be as simple as flipping the phase of the subwoofer 180 degrees. If not, try lowering the crossover frequency of the mid. If this leads to a sloppy sound but better bass, try a steeper crossover.

Best of luck there is a steep learning curve from this point on.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

jonah1810 said:


> Because your headunit had different preput voltage, re set your gains and you shouldn't have a problem.
> 
> Phase is referring to the sound waves, if they are completely in phase they will blend together so to speak. But if they are out of phase 90 degrees they will cancel eachother because the waves aren't lining up with eachother. When a speaker makes noise it pushes the cone out, and then backwards, the sound that comes from when the speaker goes backwards is 90 degrees out of phase with the sound waves coming out of the front of the speaker.
> 
> So if you time align wrong, your speakers will cancel eachother out. Just try going into your time alignment and move the one speaker far apart in time alignment then the other. You'll hear it go really quiet.


Just to clarify, 180 degrees is completely out of phase, not 90 degrees, but to be fair, anything other than perfectly in phase will have interference both constructive and destructive.
Going back to your crossover settings, this is what you have listed:

hpf - 4k 12db 
mid hpf - 125 12db 
mid lpf - 3.5k 12db
lpf - 80hz 24db 

So your tweeters are high passed at 4khz? That's not a problem.
The mids is low passed at 3.5khz? Again, not a problem
The mids are high passed at 125hz? This is reasonably, but probably not ideal, if your doors are deadened and the install is solid, try lowering this to about 80hz and see how it works. Keep an eye on the woofers when you turn up the volume though, you don't want to push them too hard until you know if 80hz is a comfortable place for them. 
You have your sub low passed at 80hz? This isn't bad either, but the gap between that and the mids could be part of the problem. Use the same point for both the lpf and hpf, and use the same slope (24db/octave is what I would start with). Now you need to make sure it's all level matched. 

You need to reset your gains after swapping the head unit. With the gains set properly, you can fine tune the levels with the head unit, then TA the system. If this doesn't help we'll need more specifics regarding your setup, an RTA graph would be helpful to see what's actually going on.


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## shadowm891 (Apr 13, 2014)

Now when you say use the same on the lpf and hpf. are you referring to the mid lpf and hpf slope ?


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## ibzfiles (Mar 17, 2015)

You got a 80prs and are keeping the loudness function on? That's incompletely missing the point of using the 80prs. I suggest you turn off loudness, play around with the eq!! The 16 band eq is there for a reason.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

ibzfiles said:


> You got a 80prs and are keeping the loudness function on? That's incompletely missing the point of using the 80prs. I suggest you turn off loudness, play around with the eq!! The 16 band eq is there for a reason.


The loudness feature is actually really cool, if used properly. The key to using it properly, however, is setting the gains in a way that allows the loudness function to be defeated at the desired SPL. 

Loudness features are designed, not as a bandaid, but as a way to maintain consistent perceived frequency response, regardless of the SPL. Equal loudness curves show us how we perceive different frequencies, you'll see that when played at the same SPL some frequencies sound louder than others. The loudness feature boosts the low and high frequencies that we aren't sensitive to at low volumes, then gradually tapers the boost off as the volume is increased. This allows a perceived frequency response that remains nearly the same for the entire range of the volume knob. 

Again, the key is to set the gains so that this happens at the right spot on the volume knob. If you do this, you have a nice, impactful sound at low volumes, and as you turn up the volume, the frequency response normalizes and the loudness feature is completely inactive.


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

^^^ what gijoe said so eloquently ^^^


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

My wife's car has a p880 in a passive setup, my source is an old p800 and I'm currently running active of that since the bit10 crapped out. I have never used the loudness function.

What happens when you listen to a decent 2ch and turn down the volume? Well, obviously the amplitude reduces across the board, _*BUT*_ The balance within and across lows / mids / highs is still perceptible. If a kick drum hits 50hz you will still hear and feel that a bit. This is thanks to the speaker design and relatively benign room acoustics. If FM curves were solely responsible for how we perceive sound then even in a room, if you turn the volume down, the sound should get thin and tinny, but it doesn't.

Now cut to the car. In most cars when you turn the volume down the sound gets thin and tinny, like you're only hearing a 3" speaker. This is because the balance within and between the low/mid/highs is out of kilter. Thanks to horrible room acoustics and an incorrect tune. Get the timing and response right at your ears and you won't need the loudness function. The p80 has enough dsp to get that balance in the ballpark. 

Imho if one needs to use the loudness function to get better balance at lower volumes, then maybe we need to take a look at the original tune. If you engage the loudness with a decent tune, it's going to feel like the balance just got messed up. Way too bass heavy and bright.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

sqnut said:


> Imho if one needs to use the loudness function to get better balance at lower volumes, then maybe we need to take a look at the original tune. If you engage the loudness with a decent tune, it's going to feel like the balance just got messed up. Way too bass heavy and bright.


That's my experience too. It also never hurts to compensate for road and engine noise with a "driving tune" and then have a separate "reference" tune. My truck is so quiet that I don't even worry about a separate eq curve for driving.


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Don't know what's more comical, one guy gives an honest opinion on a deck he doesn't own and a feature he's never tried or another guy having the same exact experience.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

sqnut said:


> My wife's car has a p880 in a passive setup, my source is an old p800 and I'm currently running active of that since the bit10 crapped out. I have never used the loudness function.
> 
> What happens when you listen to a decent 2ch and turn down the volume? Well, obviously the amplitude reduces across the board, _*BUT*_ The balance within and across lows / mids / highs is still perceptible. If a kick drum hits 50hz you will still hear and feel that a bit. This is thanks to the speaker design and relatively benign room acoustics. If FM curves were solely responsible for how we perceive sound then even in a room, if you turn the volume down, the sound should get thin and tinny, but it doesn't.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I completely agree. I don't use loudness in my car, but I have in the past, and I do think it can be pretty valuable, if done right. 

Sometimes I like to listen to music pretty low, I still want to have a conversation with my passenger, but have some music going at a clearly audible level. It's at these lower levels that "loudness" is nice to have. Like I said before, the key is to have the gain structure set so that as soon as the SPL reaches the level you would use for critical listening, the loudness feature is no longer playing a role. You don't want those boosts to ruin a good tune, so you want them to be defeated at the right volume. If you get this right, you can listen at proper levels and hear the system as you've tuned it, and if you turn it down to a more passive/casual SPL, the response remains very similar.

I'm not suggesting that everyone should use the feature, again, I'm happy without it, but I wouldn't compare this feature to regular bass boost, or some of the other gimmicky features, I really do think it has value in some situations. 

Simply getting the timing and response right will still result in the frequency response being perceived as different at different SPL. The best tune in the world won't change the impact that equal loudness perception causes. The (perceived) frequency response will still change depending on where the volume knob is. Loudness does a decent job fixing this.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

gijoe said:


> Simply getting the timing and response right will still result in the frequency response being perceived as different at different SPL. The best tune in the world won't change the impact that equal loudness perception causes. The (perceived) frequency response will still change depending on where the volume knob is. Loudness does a decent job fixing this.


When I say 'response', I'm talking about both L/R balance and the curve from 20-20k that sounds like listening to a real 2ch. The correct response takes care of both what your car is doing and how you hear. Correct the measured response for what the car is doing and then tune by ear to finally get it sounding right.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

sqnut said:


> When I say 'response', I'm talking about both L/R balance and the curve from 20-20k that sounds like listening to a real 2ch. The correct response takes care of both what your car is doing and how you hear. Correct the measured response for what the car is doing and then tune by ear to finally get it sounding right.


I am following you, but no tune, no matter how good, will keep the perceived response the same from low to high volume. I will admit though, that might not be desirable anyway. My point is, the loudness feature can provide something that no tune can. The best tune is still going to be weak on bass at low volumes compared to high volumes, and if that's not desirable, the loudness feature does a good job keeping things consistent. 

I'm not arguing for, or against the loudness feature, just trying to clarify what it does, and why it might be something people would want to use. If setup in the proper range of the volume knob, it can be a helpful feature.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Old thread, just searched. I sort of have an issue that I think has to do with the HU and amplifier compatibility.

Part of the issue with the OP (hope the issue was solved after gains were set) here is where the sub volume is set when setting the gains, sub volume not main volume.

It should not be set at +6 max and not at minus -1 either, I'd say +1,+2, that way +3 would be + 1 and +6 would be + 4 being max sub output.


Regarding my issue, my amp can simply take or only need one RCA out of the. HU, the amp manual says, it can take 2 RCA's. When one single coil sub is used connect to speaker terminals 1-2, when using a dual coil sub, connect to 1-4, no clue if it connects it in series when at the same time it tells you that the sub coils of the subs should not be wired for less than 2 ohms.

The 80 prs has a mono stereo sub setting, I was told to set it to mono, but since my amp is taking 2 RCA's in , when I connect it to 1-2 the bass is weak, it seems to kick in with extra noticeable bass when I turn the volume to 53-54, but it is sloppy sounding.

Connected to amp terminals 1-4 seems well but not the way it should be according to the amps manual. My guess is since the 80 prs is set to sub mono, only amp terminals 1-4 work well for one sub. 

My plan is switch the 80prs sub network to stereo and try terminals 1-2 as JBl wants, to se if I have the same issue i had with mono, and 1-2 terminals. If I still do then I will go back to amp terminals 1-4.
No clue why pioneer would have a sub stereo output when it is always mono.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Alrojoca said:


> Old thread, just searched. I sort of have an issue that I think has to do with the HU and amplifier compatibility.
> 
> My amp can simply take or only need one RCA out of the. HU, the amp manual says, it can take 2 RCA's. When one single coil sub is used connect to speaker terminals 1-2, when using a dual coil sub, connect to 1-4, no clue if it connects it in series when at the same time it tells you that the sub coils of the subs should not be wired for less than 2 ohms.
> 
> ...



Failed to ask a question and I just posted my opinion or plan to solve the issue.


What's is the deal with, the stereo/mono setting for this HU? The manual does not say, set it to stereo if you have 2 subs or mono if you have one sub, only choose one. Sub amps are mono, then my sub amp being mono, has 4 sub terminals, confusing say the least.


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

How'bout letting us know which amp you are hooking up, then we can help you out. 

Just a point about sub bass output on the prs :
the xover(s) go high enough to allow more than just " sub " bass, well into the sterephonic
range of mid bass, so having a stereo setting is useful.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

It's the JBL MSA-5001.

Thanks Lurch, that is a good observation about the sub section crossovers or reason to have stereo, I'm using the amp's low and high pass. Mmm and I remember the highest low pass freq for the sub is 250 Hz, that is not very high compared to other HU's and some old mono amps.

No clue, I had the HU sub setting set to mono, amplifier terminals 1-4. Had no issues or makes no difference but according to the amps manual I should be using terminals 1-2. 1-4 is for dual coil subs even when they emphasize to have a 4 or 2 onhm max load with the dual coil single sub. 2 RCA inputs.

Then tried the 1-2 terminals, as the manual recommended for a single coil one sub, also HU set to mono sub, and that was when it got weak and strong sloppy at higher volumes. 

In both cases 1-2 ch setting in the amps mixer as shown in the jbl diagram for 2 inputs.


Anyway, getting back late to this post since I tried a new setting, I went back from HU mono to amps terminals 1-4 since that had no issues, Tried amp terminals 1-2 got some issues, now I am briefly trying amp terminals 1-2 and HU sub stereo since I'm using 2 RCA's, 2 inputs at the amp. I don't have the sloppy loud bass for now. I will test it more later and report.

It's like I want to blame pioneer for making things more complicated or pretent offering more options, or the amp, although many mono amps have 4 terminals that makes things very confusing for a one sub connections, one thing the MS amp. I also stripped more insulation on the 10 g sub wire last week and when changed back to term today 1-2, it was clear the set screws left their mark on pure copper wire.

Any information on where it should be or if it's a coin toss and expect the best would be appreciated.


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

Sorry, but one more question before a concrete answer can be given :

Is the sub
1 + 1 ohm
2 + 2
4 + 4 .……?


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

lurch said:


> Sorry, but one more question before a concrete answer can be given :
> 
> Is the sub
> 1 + 1 ohm
> ...



Thanks, single coil 4 ohm sub. 

Still testing it, less than 20 mins and I have not heard anything bad. Switching the HU back to sub mono would be easier and I can do it just to experiment.

Briefly I can say, that when I had the HU in mono, using the balance mode, the left Ch sounded with way more bass than the right ch. I messed a bit with the slopes for the amp and I can't confirm I get the same result, when the HU is switched to mono, maybe not as bad as before but the sub bass lseems a bit stronger than the right, but I may be guessing. 
The MS amps can be really tricky or behave strange, due to the electronic sound processor, no analog switching, all display and all needs to be set properly to get the right sound.

I need more testing time, specific music etc. Always open to suggestions and explanations since the HU manual does not give a reason to use either setting, and I may have a situation of trial and error or where both work the same, and something was missed or there was a fluke or bad electronic or physical connection.


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Alrojoca said:


> Old thread, just searched. I sort of have an issue that I think has to do with the HU and amplifier compatibility.
> 
> Part of the issue with the OP (hope the issue was solved after gains were set) here is where the sub volume is set when setting the gains, sub volume not main volume.
> 
> ...


I'm not familiar with your amp, but I have an 80prs; the Low LPF output is truly stereo or mono according to how it is set. Even in MONO setting the balance will still cut one of those outputs. After looking at the description of your amp on Parts Express, there is an onboard mixer that could be configured wrong resulting in your problem. The 80prs also seems to revert to stereo Low LPF when doing AutoEQ, so double check that it has the same TA and phase for both channels. Those are the only ideas I have, so good luck!


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## lurch (Jan 20, 2014)

CKIROC is spot on here. 

also check the subwoofer LEVELS on each output of the pioneer, i seem to remember that 
even in mono mode the right and left are independently adjusted, and phase and xovers, everything. 

and again, like ckiroc said, check amp mixes in the onboard dsp. 

You should be able to use inputs 1& 2 on the amp, and any combo of neg / pos outputs but you have to set it up that way in the amp's dsp. 

I'm not sure if the amp puts out the same power at 4 or 2 ohm, if it doesn't you may 
be seeing only half of the rated at four ohm ( approx 250 watts ). 

Keep us updated …


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## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Yeah, I forgot to mention those independent levels. They're independant even in mono.
Good catch, lurch .


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Hey thanks for the extra tips.
Kind of scratched my head when you mentioned the LR sub levels volume. I use this all the time, just for more or less bass, when I looked they were both the same, never needed to change it unlike the tweeters and Midbass for tuning. No worries and I'm glad I know those can also be messed it with individually, and yes I need to press the vol dial a few secs to select L or R, no issues there as I mentioned.


Update.
I can't tell any issue now and for the last week or so, like before regardless of the sub terminals positions or mono stereo sub mode with the HU. 

My issue might have been related to blending the sub with the new Midbass, one of the amps slopes for the LP I think was - 6db instead -24db not matching the one from the HP, I remember fixing it then I continued to have the issue that might have corrected itself after a day or so, glitch or something.


9/5 just a thought, the HU mono stereo mode, I'm thinking that when changed, it may create a voltage change that the jbl amp may not like, messing with the dsp signal or confusing it and may take time to settle, just a theory.
And these amps need at least a good 5 or more minutes of being on after a change, if the power is turned off and not turned back on to confirm the change the old setting will remain, meaning we thought we changed it but we didn't. I have 3 of these MS amps and all seem to behave the same way if we rush and not confirm the on off on change, the change may not take place.


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## B77PEREZ (Jan 28, 2019)

Turn up sla it will make the out put of rca cables voltage increase.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

B77PEREZ said:


> Turn up sla it will make the out put of rca cables voltage increase.


If I do
The question would be? Will it introduce some amplifier clipping? 

This HU has so many sound adjustments it just brings more confusion, but I rather do that than turn the loudness on, 95% of the music I listen needs the loudness, same for old recordings.


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## B77PEREZ (Jan 28, 2019)

Yes it will, if you don't adjust the gains on your amp . But it will give you the cleanest signal, I think equals more output. Video on YouTube called Dyno Pioneer 80prs or google search, very usfull videos here and there that tell you about this feature.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

B77PEREZ said:


> Yes it will, if you don't adjust the gains on your amp . But it will give you the cleanest signal, I think equals more output. Video on YouTube called Dyno Pioneer 80prs or google search, very usfull videos here and there that tell you about this feature.


Good! +3 it is then, except CD interesting, and the odd thing I remember the cd sounding with less output but I always noticed slightly better SQ, since the gains were set with a cd . I am going to change the other sources, and make a quick comparison.

This most likely will not solve the issue of having to use loudness for they type of music I listen, but it will provide cleaner output, and maybe the erratic sub issue, lacking output may be corrected since I did not pay attention to the source and USB ports are the ones I use 95% of the time. Mmm.


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## maybebigfootisblurr (Nov 4, 2011)

Alrojoca said:


> Good! +3 it is then, except CD interesting, and the odd thing I remember the cd sounding with less output but I always noticed slightly better SQ, since the gains were set with a cd . I am going to change the other sources, and make a quick comparison.
> 
> This most likely will not solve the issue of having to use loudness for they type of music I listen, but it will provide cleaner output, and maybe the erratic sub issue, lacking output may be corrected since I did not pay attention to the source and USB ports are the ones I use 95% of the time. Mmm.


Turning off the internal amp (if not using it) will allegedly improve SQ as well. 

Hold SRC button until unit powers off
Press and hold volume until menu opens
Scroll through to internal amp
Press volume once.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Alrojoca said:


> Good! +3 it is then, except CD interesting, and the odd thing I remember the cd sounding with less output but I always noticed slightly better SQ, since the gains were set with a cd . I am going to change the other sources, and make a quick comparison.
> 
> This most likely will not solve the issue of having to use loudness for they type of music I listen, but it will provide cleaner output, and maybe the erratic sub issue, lacking output may be corrected since I did not pay attention to the source and USB ports are the ones I use 95% of the time. Mmm.


You speak of the loudness feature like it's a bad thing, but it's really not. 

Loudness works based on the equal loudness curve (Fletcher Munson), at low SPL we do not perceive frequencies the same way as at higher SPL. Loudness boosts the lows and highs at low volume levels and tapers off the boost as you raise the volume. This allows you to still have good bass and treble at low volumes, and maintains the same perception as you raise the volume. It's very effective, as long as the boost tapers off early enough so that you're not introducing big boosts when the volume level is already high. I've used loudness on all of my Pioneer decks in the past, it works great.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

kfinch said:


> Turning off the internal amp (if not using it) will allegedly improve SQ as well.
> 
> Hold SRC button until unit powers off
> Press and hold volume until menu opens
> ...


Thanks, yes. I did that and all the many steps needed when setting the gains. 
The fact that sometimes I needed to turn up the volume to get the sub going or to get more output, could be a sign needing more voltage that the SLA may compensate for, it's been temperamental and erratic while inconsistent. Just when I thought I fixed it, it came back.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

gijoe said:


> You speak of the loudness feature like it's a bad thing, but it's really not.
> 
> Loudness works based on the equal loudness curve (Fletcher Munson), at low SPL we do not perceive frequencies the same way as at higher SPL. Loudness boosts the lows and highs at low volume levels and tapers off the boost as you raise the volume. This allows you to still have good bass and treble at low volumes, and maintains the same perception as you raise the volume. It's very effective, as long as the boost tapers off early enough so that you're not introducing big boosts when the volume level is already high. I've used loudness on all of my Pioneer decks in the past, it works great.


Yes, totally agree, I got so spoiled to the loudness that I went to double check the gains again, making sure I maximize the volume and even thought.about adjusting the EQ just for it since all my tuning was done flat and no loudness.

The odd thing is, only a few recordings sound better without the loudness, and even at moderate volume levels, some like heavy in bass, Marcus Miller and surprisingly some recent rock music recordings from Ayreon, the metal music definitely benefits from the loudness, including the not so great recording but great music from DT Distance over Time


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## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

Always remember, if you use the loudness feature, you are simply turning up the volume. It takes absolutely no variables of your listening environment into account. It might make an adjustment variable to the source but that's it.

If you level matched your amps to the new deck then the problem is probably the loudness features of the two decks boost levels differently. That's assuming that the sub not thumping enough is a problem. From your description it sounds like the whole system isn't level matched properly. 

You're probably going to need to use the EQ and level settings to get what you're trying to achieve. I'm in the camp that says if you tuned your system properly for your preferences you should never need to use the loud feature but everyone wants something different. 

As a side note, once your system has been level matched properly, turning on a loudness feature at full tilt will clip the amps. Your speakers and ears will suffer for it. You can tune your system around the loudness feature but if you listen to more than one type of music you will just end up frustrated.

Edit: Thinking about it, the loudness feature of your old deck probably excited the resonant frequency of your cabin. Find that frequency, boost it, and you should be set for what I think you're trying to achieve (more thump).


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## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

gijoe said:


> You speak of the loudness feature like it's a bad thing, but it's really not.
> 
> Loudness works based on the equal loudness curve (Fletcher Munson), at low SPL we do not perceive frequencies the same way as at higher SPL. Loudness boosts the lows and highs at low volume levels and tapers off the boost as you raise the volume. This allows you to still have good bass and treble at low volumes, and maintains the same perception as you raise the volume. It's very effective, as long as the boost tapers off early enough so that you're not introducing big boosts when the volume level is already high. I've used loudness on all of my Pioneer decks in the past, it works great.


If you want bass and treble louder, turn up the volume. Never understood the logic of boosting certain levels at lower volumes. Loudness means you're variabaly raising the volume. If you use the logic you're describing backwards, that means the midrange is overpowering at lower volumes (lows and high is too soft) which would suggest the system isn't tuned properly. Since there's not baseline input, the system can't determine when the lows and highs overpower the midrange so you end up with a system that is only tuned properly at a single point in the volume range. But hey, it thumps!


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## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

Alrojoca said:


> If I do
> The question would be? Will it introduce some amplifier clipping?
> 
> This HU has so many sound adjustments it just brings more confusion, but I rather do that than turn the loudness on, 95% of the music I listen needs the loudness, same for old recordings.


You can clip the source output by using features that are essentially frequency boosts. I'm not sure who these people are who switch SLA and loudness when they want to have a conversation but also somehow want the music to be perfectly audible and balanced during said conversation but it seems like a major PITA as well as a distraction from driving. IM not so humble O, tune your system properly and crank it when you want to jam, turn it down when you want to talk (or sit at a red light).


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Be very careful with clipping the outputs of the stereo, chances are if it sounds better on some songs with loudness on its either the recording is not as bass heavy as you’d like or the source is crap, or you have an imbalance in between various frequency’s, ie not enough midbass vs sub bass

The source level control is designed not as an extra boost, but to allow level matching vs fm radio, if the cd sounds quiet compared to normal fm switch you can turn it up so it matches... but if you need to set it louder than fm your seriously running the risk of clip!

As an illustration, my pioneer needs +2 to match levels

It also clips at full volume so I knock the front speakers down to -5 on left and right and the subwoofer stays at 0db as +1-6 makes it clip with 0db test tones, I’d rather run gains a touch higher and definitely avoid clip with subs as noise floor isn’t an issue, and I want full output for the fronts without clip also

Loudness has no bearing on full volume on the scale as it boosts bass low down the volume only and does nothing at 35-40 on my deck as confirmed with a scope and various tones, I do use the mid setting to overcome road noise at lower volumes


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## St7_77 (May 17, 2019)

If you feel the need to use loudness 95% of the time, it means the tuning isn’t done. It doesn’t mean the tuning is “bad”, it could be perfect for all I know, but at least subjectively **you** don’t like the tuning very much (obviously or you wouldn’t have extra buttons on to compensate)... 

I would suggest starting over. Turn off all extra processes like “loudness”. Go through the normal procedures of tuning but do it with pink noise, not your favorite songs. Make sure it all sounds even/centered timing/volume wise (you said at one point it felt louder on one side). You might try listening to noise in each band separately (use a signal generator, they’re available on phone / laptop apps) and make sure your L/R is balanced at every frequency. This way your center image isn’t like a zigzag line across different frequencies (some further left, some further right). That said, use your judgement on how much EQ to use. Extreme EQ that sounds perfect at one head location might sound horrid if you accidentally move your head even a couple inches. So be careful. 

For final musical tweaks with music, I would listen at medium volume, not too quiet and not rocking out hard. There’s a point at which your hearing will be flattest. If you do it at lower volume, you’re likely to crank the highs and lows and get a harsh sound, if you do it at too loud a volume rocking out super hard, you will not put in enough lows and highs and be reaching for that loudness button at low or normal levels (possibly what happened?). The loudness button is never going to be as precise as what you dial in with a 16 band EQ, so putting on a slightly arbitrary EQ over everything is at least not the place to start. 

Or put it another way, why build your house on a crooked foundation. Start with the basics, get the tuning how you like it, then evaluate the extra options... 

I personally would **first** try to get the thing as flat and even sounding as possible. This does NOT mean that every song sounds like it has equal bass/mid/treble, it means that every song sounds exactly like it actually sounds, not how you like it (for example, older era recordings, like really old, are often very bright and very little bass - or similarly, jazz, should not sound bassy in your system). THEN, consider how you want to modify it to your taste or perhaps save that “flat” as a preset and create a couple others for other types of music you listen to or another general preset that’s more to your liking. Or after it’s all really flat, maybe push up the sub a little via the crossover LPF. 

I’m just saying I wouldn’t concoct one primary tuning that was done with levels and extra functions all over the place just done by ear while listening to songs. If you do that, unless really seasoned at tuning, my guess is it will only sound good (probably a bit hyped) on those songs and then really bad on songs that sound different. There’s gotta be a neutral to start from. As many others have said, some of us come from the “if it’s proper you shouldn’t have to adjust it almost ever unless it’s a horrible recording” school of thought. I’m of that opinion both because my 99 accord’s stock system sounded “okay” always (because it was an analog stereo before stock stereos has all that stupid random/poor tuning done at the factory) and also because I’m a recording studio guy and when monitors in studio are set up properly (which is very rare sadly), they sound amazing so long as the recording is good, but they also show very little fingerprint on the music, you just hear the character of the music, not so much the sound of the room or speakers themselves. This means each song has more of its own vibe and not just a heavy fingerprint of our own preferences on it. We hear it more how it was originally intended (if mixed professionally anyway... and not quite true of EDM etc perhaps). 

SLA by the way is primarily for matching various sources to how loud the radio (am/fm) is. It’s so when you flip between CD, iPod, radio etc none of them are drastically different volume than others.


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## St7_77 (May 17, 2019)

Ps. As someone said earlier, match your crossovers or at least start there. If your sub starts at 80, the midbass should end at 80. Don’t leave a gap unless you really have a super intentional well thought out method for how/why that’s not going to leave a big hole in the system (which at 12dB and 24dB it’s going to leave a hole I think).. Some will say there are “muddy frequencies at ___Hz. Those frequencies are still needed in proper proportion. What is “muddy” if too loud is “body” at proper amount. Take out too much and stuff will sound anemic (or it will vary too much in a bad way song to song as the key of the song changes). Similarly if you go boosting certain frequencies because they really sound good on a certain song, another song in a different key may sound horrible. If you’re boosting a vital note in one song and that note is out of key in another song, it may sound weird. This is why flattening things to adjust for cabin acoustics first then using broad boosts (unless you’re super high or low frequency to where it’s not in the “fundamental” range of any instrument) makes sense...


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Some of you are misunderstanding how the loudness feature works. You simply cannot overcome the effects of the equal loudness contours without it. Even the best tune in the world can benefit from it. Your tune will sound different at different volume levels, if you want to play at a low volume, but still want a realistic representation of the bass, loudness will help. 

I'll admit, loudness isn't always necessary, but if you listen to music at both low and high volumes regularly, it will even out the perceived balance. It does something that tuning alone cannot do. It's not a band aid to fix a bad tune, it's a tool designed for people who listen to music at varying volume levels regularly. 

Turning up the volume isn't a reasonable solution, since it will turn up all frequencies equally, again, it's about the equal loudness contours, and how we perceive frequencies at different volumes, regular EQ cannot address this.


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## St7_77 (May 17, 2019)

I’m not saying not to use with it, I’m saying don’t have it on while tuning. My 2 cents.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

St7_77 said:


> I’m not saying not to use with it, I’m saying don’t have it on while tuning. My 2 cents.


That's fair, you need to have a decent tune to start with so that when the loudness feature is defeated (by turning up the volume) you have the balance you want. Tune the car for medium to high SPL listening, then use loudness to give the perception of fullness when the volume is low.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

BlueSQ said:


> You can clip the source output by using features that are essentially frequency boosts. I'm not sure who these people are who switch SLA and loudness when they want to have a conversation but also somehow want the music to be perfectly audible and balanced during said conversation but it seems like a major PITA as well as a distraction from driving. IM not so humble O, tune your system properly and crank it when you want to jam, turn it down when you want to talk (or sit at a red light).


Let's not confuse the source level adjustment with the auto sound levelizer, (ASL) that increases volume by itself, based on speed or RPMs and other factors, it never caught my curiosity, it simply will not work, a waste of feature.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

The video recommended simply showed that all other sources except CD media measured 2.5 volts at maximum volume. The CD 4.8-4.9 volts.

Then the other issue with lack of bass or fear or clipped voltage, gains should be set at max or near max volume, since this HU puts clean voltage at maximum volume. This means old recordings without compression and recorded at low volumes will not sound loud enough. This is where the loudness comes to the rescue, unless you set gains at 88-90% volume, 3/4 works but then clipped voltage will be sent to the amp when the volume is turned passed the 88-90% or 3/4, while old low volume recordings will sound louder. 

And the sub level output? Where should it be when setting the gains? 0 or +6? I went through this before the erratic lack of sub issue and it has nothing to do with it, but just for reference this may be important for some.

Logic says, maximize it +6 when setting the gains right? Then, when you are done you move it to 0 and you notice no bass having to go back to +6, +3 +5 is not good, If gains are set at 0, then 0 is 0 and plus is more bass, maybe having to settle around +3 out of 6 for normal listening. If the gains are set at -2,-3 sub level, then when we go and listen and set at 0, we got bass, good bass, and more bass if we go higher of course. At some point more does nothing or simply destroys good music, but bad music still sounds bad anyway, and the ones that have 2 10"s maybe we're happy with the original logic because even with low sub output setting something has to move at high volume and 700 W plus of power.

Bottom line, if the gains are set at sub level + 6, the sub level needs to be at +6 in order to get bass, and that would be as high as it will go, with no upside potential.

I think when I did mine I set it at -1 or -2 and with or without loudness I never have to exceed +2 more is simply inaudible or inaccurate for the music.

So far with the +3 SLA I have not experienced the dead sub ghost or sleepy low output sub hat sometimes never woke up and sometimes it did wake up after turning the volume up.
And how knows maybe with my amp having a built in DSP, it did not like the 2.5 volts through the USB, the source I used the most, and I never recall hearing or experiencing the sleepy sub when I played a CD, so go figure but, just I thought I fixed it, the sub ghost reappeared again. We will see what happens so far so good.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Alrojoca said:


> Let's not confuse the source level adjustment with the auto sound levelizer, (ASL) that increases volume by itself, based on speed or RPMs and other factors, it never caught my curiosity, it simply will not work, a waste of feature.


Additionally, clipping isn't a real concern when using the loudness feature because it only boosts frequencies when the volume is low, as you increase the volume, the boost diminishes, so when you are at mid-high listening levels the loudness feature isn't boosting anything. So, the risk of clipping isn't a real issue.


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## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

St7_77 said:


> I would suggest starting over.


Yep.


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## BlueSQ (Mar 22, 2007)

gijoe said:


> Additionally, clipping isn't a real concern when using the loudness feature.


The loudness feature takes a guess based on the source and volume. It has no baseline input information about your system. Maybe someone who ran more tests can chime in but in the past I've level matched an amp and then, while I was at it, turn on the loudness feature while the 0db track was playing. Amp immediately clipped. I didn't test the line output so I can't honestly say the output is clipping but it did make the amp clip. So, with the system at pretty much full tilt, the loudness feature didn't safely back off as you suggest. I'm not saying it doesn't back off at all but it clearly didn't back off enough.

To be fair, I do use it on rare occasion when I want to get some oomf out of old live recordings (like from the 1950's and 1960's, BB King in particular) where I already know the source is pretty quiet. However, for OPs situation and what he's describing, it sounds like he needs to start from scratch on his tune with his own listening preferences taking priority.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

BlueSQ said:


> The loudness feature takes a guess based on the source and volume. It has no baseline input information about your system. Maybe someone who ran more tests can chime in but in the past I've level matched an amp and then, while I was at it, turn on the loudness feature while the 0db track was playing. Amp immediately clipped. I didn't test the line output so I can't honestly say the output is clipping but it did make the amp clip. So, with the system at pretty much full tilt, the loudness feature didn't safely back off as you suggest. I'm not saying it doesn't back off at all but it clearly didn't back off enough.
> 
> To be fair, I do use it on rare occasion when I want to get some oomf out of old live recordings (like from the 1950's and 1960's, BB King in particular) where I already know the source is pretty quiet. However, for OPs situation and what he's describing, it sounds like he needs to start from scratch on his tune with his own listening preferences taking priority.


That’s not how the loudness feature works on any pioneer, kenwood or alpine I’ve used of late, at full volume if you switch loudness on it doesn’t do anything, nothing, zip, so it won’t make it instantly clip! As said over and over, loudness only effects low volumes by shaping the frequency curve so it has a little more impact at low volumes, at max volume it does nothing

I do also know where the OP is coming from, and tune has something to do with it, but also some recordings are also lacking impact where you would perceive it would benefit from it, but... that’s how the original artist intended it to be played, if you wish to edit that for each individual track then go for it, but I want my stereo to be a one stop shop, so I cope with the crap recordings where it’s virtually mono in the centre and also the crap dynamics on 50% of recordings as the few I like that are recorded well sound god damn awesome, it’s all about finding a balance to what your stereo sounds like and having a nice average, what the original poster is looking for is a tune that enables him to have the best of all worlds, to make crap songs sound good and make good songs sound awesome... sorry but everything is a compromise, I think your trying to find a unicorn


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

BlueSQ said:


> The loudness feature takes a guess based on the source and volume. It has no baseline input information about your system. Maybe someone who ran more tests can chime in but in the past I've level matched an amp and then, while I was at it, turn on the loudness feature while the 0db track was playing. Amp immediately clipped. I didn't test the line output so I can't honestly say the output is clipping but it did make the amp clip. So, with the system at pretty much full tilt, the loudness feature didn't safely back off as you suggest. I'm not saying it doesn't back off at all but it clearly didn't back off enough.
> 
> To be fair, I do use it on rare occasion when I want to get some oomf out of old live recordings (like from the 1950's and 1960's, BB King in particular) where I already know the source is pretty quiet. However, for OPs situation and what he's describing, it sounds like he needs to start from scratch on his tune with his own listening preferences taking priority.


The loudness setting does not know your gain structure, so you are correct there. The loudness' boost tapers off based on the head unit volume level, regardless of what the actual SPL is at that point (again, because it doesn't know the gain setting on your amp). The key to getting loudness to work optimally depends on you setting your gains so that you can still use most of the head unit's volume range. If the head unit goes to 60, but you have your gains set so that your max listening volume happens at 30, then the loudness feature will not be completely defeated. As far as loudness "knows" you are still pretty low on the volume range, and boost would still be helpful. 

I've only used it with Pioneer products, so I can't say how other companies implement it, but with a Pioneer head unit you want your amp gains to be low enough that you still use the head unit for most of it's range. If your gains are so high that you only use the bottom half of the volume range, then loudness will interfere and keep boosting even after the SPL is high enough to not warrant the boost. 

Used correctly, the loudness feature is excellent for people who listen to music at lower levels sometimes. It should not be used as an EQ, or bass boost simply to add bass to a song, that's what the sub level adjustment and EQ are for. It should be used to maintain a balanced perception of frequencies throughout a large range of volume settings. When not used, music will sound weak and lack bass at low volumes, but sound great as you turn up the volume, OR if you set your bass so that it's great at low volumes it will be too much as you increase the volume. Loudness fixes this, assuming your gains are set so that you use most of the head unit's volume range.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

Mmm, as far as the loudness is concerned, I have nothing to worry about then, since my gains are set at 61 out 62, and when the loudness is on I don't need to go to 60. 
55-57 tops, no audible distortion, my sub only handles 220 watts, my amp puts 500W.

Joe, does lower output gains reduce actual power or just output sound level volume? My amps have a dedicated output level ( not voltage gains) I tend to keep my amps volume gains about 12% less or 87 % and for the tweeters I have them at 73% 27% less, and with the HU -5 Db on the the lowest side.


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