# Who says they don't make them like they use to.



## Hi-FiDelity

I though I'd post some internal shots of some recent amps for those who are wondering what they look like and to show that you don't have to live 15 years in the past to get a well designed amp with out spending a fortune. Some of the amps on this list are now out of production but they are all form the past 3-5 years. 

Let's start things off with with some entry/mid level amps.

PPI Black Ice 800.4: For an amp that you can get for under $200 it sure looks pretty solid. 





































Sundown Audio SAX-100.2: i know Sundown's subs get quite a bit of love on this forum but what about there amps. The SAX series may not be the hi-fi of the hi-fi but for the price you can do far worst. 



















Mb Quart Onyx 125.4 and 150.4: Mb Quart has caught a lot of flack since the buyout by Maxxsonics and while there speakers and subs may not be much there amps are a good value for the cash. At least there last gen ones

125.4









150.4









Cadence Audio ZRS C9: Cadence makes some real nice amps but what about there entry level gear.



















Lanzar Opti 500.2 and 200.4: Now for every one's favorite whipping boy. Yeah they are owned by soundaround and most of there line is pure junk but the Opti's still carry a badge that should make some people around here proud, also there guts don't look to bad either. 

500.2 



















200.4 



















Sony Xplod XM-3001sxd: Yeah it's not been in production for a few years but as far as something carrying the Xplod name it's not too shabby esspecially for the $25 bucks they pop up on ebay for. 




















Ok now that we've looked at the entry/mid level amps lets look at some of the higher end offering out there. 

Sundown Audio 200.4: It's a shame that they stopped making it. 










SoundStream Reference 5.1000: I know the SS REF line gets mentioned quite a bit but they are some very well made amps. 



















Zapco Reference 100.4: It's a shame they stopped making the reference line but it's not like Zapco only has one high end line. 










JL Audio Slash 300/2: To me this is probably the only JL line I've really liked, just something about the looks and the specs. It's nice to see that the guts match the exterior looks. 



















DC Audio 175.4: All I can say is this looks like one well made beast.



















Helix E400: Again sadly discontinued but again it's not like Helix hasn't continued to make a quality amp. 






































Ok here are some mono-blocks lets start at the bottom and work our way up from the bottom.

American Bass HD-2500: I personally had never heard of these guys but judging by this little guys guts I'd give there amps a listen for the right price. 



















PPI Sedona S2000.1D: The Sedona brand has almost always gotten a lot of **** heaped on it and rightly so for the most part. Though with PPI's new owners and focus on quality it seems like that's changing. 



















Power Bass ASA 1500.1D: Another brand that get's alot of crap and for the most part they don't make anything all that great but the ASA line seam to be a cut above the rest. 



















PPI Black Ice 1600D: Another strong effort from the new PPI.



















Lanzar Opti Drive 2000D/6000D: Some more new Opti Love.




















6000D









Now for the higher end offerings

Planet Audio Big Bang BB2400.1: I like the looks of those guts. 



















Sundown Audio NS-1: This beast shows that Sundown know's how to get some serious power to there subs. 



















SoundStream Reference 1.1000: A pretty blue box of power.



















DC Audio 7.5K: POWER!



















I pulled all these picks off of google image search and in the case of SS from there site.


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## TrickyRicky

The only problem that I see is that they dont use quality componenets like they use to. For example most of the amplifiers have Capxon or some other cheap capacitors, counterfit components.

Also notice how all the amps you posted are now consider "HUGE", dont get me wrong I like these designs better (through hole, easier to repair rather than a million smd componenets all crammed into one little pcb).


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## MarkZ

TrickyRicky said:


> The only problem that I see is that they dont use quality componenets like they use to. For example most of the amplifiers have Capxon or some other cheap capacitors, counterfit components.


So? What is a "cheap capacitor" going to do differently? Which capacitors are you referring to specifically?


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## TrickyRicky

I stated "capxon" but there's a few more. Ebay has them on sale....lol.

Have you ever hear of "Kelna" capacitors? Thats right "KELNA" not Elna.


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## MarkZ

No, I didn't mean what brand name is stamped on the capacitor. I meant how do they impact the operation of the amp? Which ones (ie. where in the circuit) are they having this impact, and why?


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## TrickyRicky

hmmm let me see, they use them in the DC filter section, in the rail voltage section, signal input... they pretty much throw them everywhere and anywhere. They dont effect much beside reliabilty and the life spand of the amplifier. 

You do know how they are made right, so why ask?


They obviously work but the question is how long. I've seen these "off brand" or couterfit caps blow out/leak in several circuits not just amplifiers.


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## RNBRAD

Exactly, not necessarily how they work but how long they work. Also how many of these cheap designed made caps actually meet their specifications printed on their label? I also don't think you can necessarily look at the internals of an amplifier and discerns its quality. Only takes one weak link.


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## TrickyRicky

RNBRAD said:


> Exactly, not necessarily how they work but how long they work. Also how many of these cheap designed made caps actually meet their specifications printed on their label?


I doubt they even bother to inspect them.

There is plenty of stories on forums where diy'ers used caps bought from ebay (most likely to be counterfits) and ended up with horrible results...including fire inside trunks.


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## ATOMICTECH62

Most of them except The JL and old Soundstream will use the outdated 4558 op amps or the TL072-74's.They are fine for sub amps but not full range.


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## MarkZ

I think fires inside trunks would be a pretty serious thing that would practically bankrupt a mid- to small company. I really don't know of any evidence that any of these amps pictured have a...um..."fire" problem. But I might be wrong.

As for DIYers causing a fire.. well, that's not a first.  Although I honestly can't say I've ever heard of a fire occurring when the person used the proper precautions. People do stupid things and I'm not sure I'd judge an amp based on how idiot-proof it is. 

Exploded caps on the other hand...

I'm not disagreeing that a higher quality cap might last longer, but I've done enough cap jobs within 10 yrs of an amp's life to know that "old school" often doesn't get good reliability either. I would be pretty surprised to see longevity of the caps becoming a major problem, but I haven't really been in the game to track such things. I'll let those with benches chime in on that.

As for performance, however, a cap is a cap. Although I'm certain RNBrad disagrees with me on that.  In this context though, a cap's job is pretty damned simple. Filter cap tolerances don't matter, neither do rail caps IMO. You'll find bigger performance issues accompanying bypass caps, but those are usually not electrolytic and I see nothing wrong with using cheap ceramics instead of tantulums. 

The only place where tolerance would really matter I think is in the crossovers or in the feedback filter. Most people around here don't even want crossovers in their amps, and I don't know of many companies who really do what they're supposed to be doing in feedback circuits anyway, so who cares about the cap?


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## ATOMICTECH62

The PPI's are the same line as the Audio pipe,Sound Magnus,Critical mass,Massive NX and the newer Chinese made MTX.
The Power Bass,Lanzar and Planet Audio are the same line as the Soundstorm,newer Soundstream and others.
The Sundown and DC Audio are the same line as Hifonics,Autotek,MB Quart,Cresendo,Atomic,Incrminator,Celestra,Emphaser,Starsound,U-Dimension,American Bass,Ground Zero,and SPL Dynamics To name a few.


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## RNBRAD

MarkZ said:


> As for performance, however, a cap is a cap. Although I'm certain RNBrad disagrees with me on that.  p


Not sure why you would think that.  You are correct though. Even though most applications don't require tight tolerances, some do and when they fall out of tolerance, it can be audible. Some caps may operate for an hour and fall immediately out of specification or fail altogether. Some caps are quicker, some have different sound properties or characteristics (so they say) and some have a lower dissipation or loss factor. We discussed that one though. So really whether the application can benefit or not depends on what the caps is used for. But no doubt cap performance varies. In some cases, cap performance doesn't even meet it's design specifications.


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## ATOMICTECH62

Cap failure is something I deal with on almost a daily basis.
Class A/B not so much.Class D amps demand a lot from a cap.Higher voltage fluctuations,higher current demands at high frequency square wave switching will make them run very hot.If they dont give out first they Mosfets in the amp will.
I always replace them with a 105 degree of higher voltage if possible.


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## MarkZ

RNBRAD said:


> Not sure why you would think that.  You are correct though. Even though most applications don't require tight tolerances, some do and when they fall out of tolerance, it can be audible. Some caps may operate for an hour and fall immediately out of specification or fail altogether. Some caps are quicker, some have different sound properties or characteristics (so they say) and some have a lower dissipation or loss factor. We discussed that one though. So really whether the application can benefit or not depends on what the caps is used for. But no doubt cap performance varies. In some cases, cap performance doesn't even meet it's design specifications.


Not meeting its stated specifications is certainly grounds for a return. Not a big deal if we return a dozen to digikey, but if Samsung returns several thousand, that company will feel it. 

But I agree and I would just add that it's not only application dependent, but it's also circuit-dependent. In most cases, if you're "stuck" with a certain part, you can design the circuit to accommodate it. I always say a properly designed circuit is one that doesn't depend on the precision of the components, especially since they can be so prone to temperature variation and nonlinear behavior.

circuit > components within the circuit


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## RNBRAD

MarkZ said:


> Not meeting its stated specifications is certainly grounds for a return. Not a big deal if we return a dozen to digikey, but if Samsung returns several thousand, that company will feel it.
> 
> But I agree and I would just add that it's not only application dependent, but it's also circuit-dependent. In most cases, if you're "stuck" with a certain part, you can design the circuit to accommodate it. I always say a properly designed circuit is one that doesn't depend on the precision of the components, especially since they can be so prone to temperature variation and nonlinear behavior.
> 
> circuit > components within the circuit


Not all circuits depend on tight tolerances, but the components need to work. A circuit is only as good as it weakest link and it may just may be that "cheaper" made cap. Funny thing is a lot of people throw away good stuff when it takes pennies to fix. I fixed my LG tv, cost me 2.20 on 2 caps. Most people would of thrown away a 2k LCD. The failure rate of these specific caps were well known though but I'm sure many just pitched the TV and moved on.


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## edouble101

Amps are a dime a dozen compared to old school a/b. You do not see the design finesse of the 90's in the newer Korean/Chinese boards.


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## MarkZ

RNBRAD said:


> Not all circuits depend on tight tolerances, but the components need to work. A circuit is only as good as it weakest link and it may just may be that "cheaper" made cap. Funny thing is a lot of people throw away good stuff when it takes pennies to fix. I fixed my LG tv, cost me 2.20 on 2 caps. Most people would of thrown away a 2k LCD. The failure rate of these specific caps were well known though but I'm sure many just pitched the TV and moved on.


I don't know about your tv, but I would almost bet that the reason those caps were high failure was not because of a defective cap, but rather the fault of the engineers for a shoddy design. As you know, caps can be susceptible to temperature and voltage issues -- some a lot more than others -- and the wrong cap inserted into a volatile or even sloppy circuit can result in a high failure rate.

This may seem like a semantic designation here, but I think it's important because instead of these amp guts pictures where people will see a cap brand name, or higher-than-typical voltage ratings, some people should instead consider that better circuits can reduce the need for those higher rated caps in the first place.

For example, if your power supply is susceptible to excessive voltage spikes, back EMF, inrush, etc, then you're probably going to need a better cap to avoid high failure rates than somebody else's power supply that isn't susceptible to those things.


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## Hi-FiDelity

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> The PPI's are the same line as the Audio pipe,Sound Magnus,Critical mass,Massive NX and the newer Chinese made MTX.
> The Power Bass,Lanzar and Planet Audio are the same line as the Soundstorm,newer Soundstream and others.
> The Sundown and DC Audio are the same line as Hifonics,Autotek,MB Quart,Cresendo,Atomic,Incrminator,Celestra,Emphaser,Starsound,U-Dimension,American Bass,Ground Zero,and SPL Dynamics To name a few.


Where are you getting your information from cause I'll by that Sundown and DC Audio will share some designs but SoundStream and SoundStorm, I don't think so.


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## Hi-FiDelity

Also since everyone is talking about capacitors. Do you know for a fact that any of these amps use "cheap" or "counterfeit caps, I know it happens but just because something is "made in china" doesn't instantly mean it uses the cheapest parts available. It's the same thinking that people had about products made in japan back in the 50's, yet you see people rave about that stereo they had back in the day that was "Made in Japan" and how amazing it was.


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## Hi-FiDelity

edouble101 said:


> Amps are a dime a dozen compared to old school a/b. You do not see the design finesse of the 90's in the newer Korean/Chinese boards.


Elaborate please, what exactly is "design finesse" and how did it disappear. I've seen quite a few "old school" designs that look like a rats nest or wires that from a technical/repair standpoint can't be all that great.


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## 07azhhr

Hi-fi do you have any pics of bad amps to compare these amps to?


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## Hi-FiDelity

07azhhr said:


> Hi-fi do you have any pics of bad amps to compare these amps to?


Sure, I can dig some up.

Kicker ZR240: 










Kenwood KAC-1502S:











Rockford Fosgate R125-2:










Sony XM-GTX1852:










Boss PH4000D: 










Kicker ZX650.4










They may not all be the worst offenders but there are definitely better options out there for the same cost.


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## edouble101

Hi-FiDelity said:


> Elaborate please, what exactly is "design finesse" and how did it disappear. I've seen quite a few "old school" designs that look like a rats nest or wires that from a technical/repair standpoint can't be all that great.


Show me an amp manufactured in 2012-13 that compares to PG ZPA's or a few other series PG amps. Just one example. This is completely subjective but that is my opinion.


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## benny

so what is it that makes those amps "bad"?


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## Hi-FiDelity

edouble101 said:


> Show me an amp manufactured in 2012-13 that compares to PG ZPA's or a few other series PG amps. Just one example. This is completely subjective but that is my opinion.


how about Pheonix Golds The One series or there Elite line how about Zuki Eleets line or anything from Galden or Mosconni, I don't think these amps are anything to scoff at. I can respect your opinion and honestly I encourage you to have an opinion but don't try and phrase it like a fact.


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## Hi-FiDelity

benny said:


> so what is it that makes those amps "bad"?


 I never claimed all these amps were "bad" as in used counterfeit parts or burst into flames. I listed them as "bad" because they are drastically under built and over priced for what they claim to do. Yeah they claim rather modest power output but I have a feeling that they are running on the ragged edge just to reach them. As an example The Kickers (particularly ZR240) were drastically over priced (costing $350 in the ZR240's case for 60 wpc rms) I mean for $250-$300 you could get the Lanzar Opti 500.2, which will not only do 60 wpc easy but will do near rated at 4 ohms at about 13 volts (Lanzar Optidrive 500x2).

I'm not trying to tell people that these new amps will wipe the floor with your precious old school amps (PPI Arts, SS REF, Audio Arts, ect) (in the case of the entry/mid amps not even close) but the modern "high end" amps from Zapco, DC, Helix, Sundown, and SoundStream aren't push overs.


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## ATOMICTECH62

The Kenwood and the Sony are loaded with Parts under the boards.
The Boss is the same manufacturer as the Power Bass,Lanzar and Planet Audio in the first set of pictures.
The newer style Kicker is the same as Lightning Audio,Dual and some VR3's
The ZR240 is a good amp.


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## chad

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> Most of them except The JL and old Soundstream will use the outdated 4558 op amps or the TL072-74's.They are fine for sub amps but not full range.


Do you know how many very fine pro audio components have been ruined by kid techs upgrading caps from the ones you mentioned? People have been fired for this

The TL072 is just fine for full range use, way up there, as long as the circuit is designed for it. In fact many REQUIRE the TL07X series to work properly unless you decouple the replacements.


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## PPI_GUY

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> The PPI's are the same line as the Audio pipe,Sound Magnus,Critical mass,Massive NX and the newer Chinese made MTX.
> The Power Bass,Lanzar and Planet Audio are the same line as the Soundstorm,newer Soundstream and others.
> The Sundown and DC Audio are the same line as Hifonics,Autotek,MB Quart,Cresendo,Atomic,Incrminator,Celestra,Emphaser,Starsound,U-Dimension,American Bass,Ground Zero,and SPL Dynamics To name a few.


Lots of bad info in your post. Stuff that starts the kind of internet messageboard rumors that take on a life of their own. 

I believe the PPI's may be Korean. They are certainly not repackaged AudioPoop or MTX. They may share most of the Soundstream internals however as both companies are under the Epsilon banner. Grizz Archer (former brand manager/designer) at Epsilon has plainly stated that the new PPI Black Ice amps use SS Rubicon internals. The PPI Phantoms share the same Philips chipset as Nakamichi, NVX, Polk and others.

Powerbass owns Image Dynamics now and I seriously doubt they share internals with Lanzar (exception: the Opti X000 series?) and Planet Audio. 

Sundown and the Maxxsonics brands may indeed share internals. Seems I recall reading that somewhere with pics that proved the claim.


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## Hi-FiDelity

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> The Kenwood and the Sony are loaded with Parts under the boards.


Maybe I should have used another word aside from bad. The KAC's aren't really bad amps (especially in the $100 range) but I can say I'd rather spend a bit more and get something better, like a PRS-D800. Internally the KAX are not that impressively designed from what I remember, though I haven't seen the insides in awhile (not counting the picture). 



ATOMICTECH62 said:


> The Boss is the same manufacturer as the Power Bass,Lanzar and Planet Audio in the first set of pictures.


Same manufacturer doesn't equal same amp, it can in some cases but when the amps in question look nothing alike on the inside (which is the case here) I don't think that's whats going on. Though with that said I have no doubt that the internals of the regular Lanzar amps look like the Boss, but the Opti's are a different beast all together same goes for the Planet Audio Big Bang line. 



ATOMICTECH62 said:


> The newer style Kicker is the same as Lightning Audio,Dual and some VR3's
> The ZR240 is a good amp.


If you wanna pay $350 for sixty wpc be my guest, you could do a hell of a lot better for the money. Also using Dual and Lightning Audio as examples of how the new kickers aren't that bad doesn't really make me want to change my mind in thinking that they are overpriced for what they are.


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## ATOMICTECH62

If all you care about are watts per dollar then you are right.However.
The Kicker ZR240 was made about 15 years ago and will out perform the 500.2 in every way but shear power.They are very under rated.They are really 100x2 at 4 ohms and can be run bridged at 2 ohms for about 500x1.They are fully regulated down to 11 volts,use all 1% smd resistors and 105 degree caps throughout.On the bench they will produce full rated power up past 100khz.The ZR600 will do over 1000 watts bridged at 100khz,and the ZR1000 will do over 1500.
If I were given both amps and told to put one on my front stage I would take the ZR240.
I work on amps every day and have been for about 25 years.I have 3 rooms full of amp guts and amps.I even have piles of them.Since the mid 90's when DEI,Maxsonics and Soundaround started buying up companies things went down hill fast.There are just a hand full of factories making amps for almost every brand except the more elite brands.

Take a look at the PPI S2000.1 guts in the first set of pictures then look at the pictures in the misspelled thread"Crtical mass is a ripoff".The Audiopipe 1500 is the same amp as the Soundmagnus and the Critical mass.Even the 2 op amps have had thier numbers ground off the same way.

Im not ragging on these amps.Most of the Asian design's have got a lot better in the last 5 years.Hell I even use a JBL gto amp on my subs.Its about the same amp as the Memphis 16-MCD1500.Which is also Crossfire,Orion,DEI,Viper,Directed and a few others.
Its easy to tell when you see an op amp inside an amp that has had the part numbers ground off and the put a sticker on it that has B52 or F15 printed on them.And the boards they are on will work in a totally different brand amp.

The Soundstorm,Soundstream,Boss,Lanzar etc.. line.I keep those boards for the little fans and the coils they blow on because they go bad all the time.Same with the small vertical boards in them.You cant get these parts anywhere else.They are the same as the old Tsunami's also.
Maxsonic makes sooooo many amps for soooooo many different companies I wont go there.
Take a trip to the car audio forum on "Diyaudio.com"and read some of the threads.
If you really want to learn about amps,that's the place to go.


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## MarkZ

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> I work on amps every day and have been for about 25 years.I have 3 rooms full of amp guts and amps.I even have piles of them.Since the mid 90's when DEI,Maxsonics and Soundaround started buying up companies things went down hill fast.There are just a hand full of factories making amps for almost every brand except the more elite brands.


Things went downhill long before that for some of those companies. For example, DEI bought, for the most part, failing companies. Companies that were failing because their product wasn't as good as their prices (PPI), reliability had become questionable (Orion), or poor service was literally making dealers dump them (a/d/s).

But these "more elite brands" that you talk about... how many of them are there now versus how many of them were there 20 years ago? I haven't surveyed it, but my rough estimate would be somewhere in the *10x* range. You can get better, more sophisticated, more technologically advanced, and better constructed equipment more readily now than you could in the past. Maybe there were also fewer bad companies back then than there are now, but it's hard to see how that is relevant.


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## AAAAAAA

Agreed there is more of everything now.


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## ATOMICTECH62

I agree also.
We shipped 2 skids of returns from one of the best companies(made in the USA)and they would not give us credit for 75% of it.
Dealing directly with the companies and their unrealistic quotas drove a lot of shop owners into buying from distributors.Of course the payed more,but didnt have to deal with threats of pulling the product from their store and they got a bigger selection of products.Then came the unauthorized sales debate.
The ELITE brands I'm referring to are lines like Brax,TRU,Audison etc..
Now there are a few mainstream brands that do not appear to be made by those few factories making everything else.Alpine and Sony.
JL Audio,US Amps and the RF power series are very different from all the rest.


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## thehatedguy

Those old Kicker amps...the first ones, weren't they designed by or have ties to a/d/s? I remember hearing that.


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## edouble101

thehatedguy said:


> Those old Kicker amps...the first ones, weren't they designed by or have ties to a/d/s? I remember hearing that.


I believe the first Stillwater amps were designed by US Amps.



***Disclaimer*** This is not a fact until verified. Only what I recall hearing.


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## ATOMICTECH62

I dont know about the SS first generation Kickers,I remember repairing one about 12 years ago and haven't seen one since.But the ZR are totally different.They use all surface mount parts and all the ADS Ive seen are through hole designs.

The SS are rare.Besides the ones that were on Ebay I have only seen 1 person using one And he got it last summer at the flea market for next to nothing and it was almost perfect.


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## Hoye0017

Hi-FiDelity said:


> Maybe I should have used another word aside from bad. The KAC's aren't really bad amps (especially in the $100 range) but I can say I'd rather spend a bit more and get something better, like a PRS-D800. Internally the KAX are not that impressively designed from what I remember, though I haven't seen the insides in awhile (not counting the picture).
> 
> 
> 
> Same manufacturer doesn't equal same amp, it can in some cases but when the amps in question look nothing alike on the inside (which is the case here) I don't think that's whats going on. Though with that said I have no doubt that the internals of the regular Lanzar amps look like the Boss, but the Opti's are a different beast all together same goes for the Planet Audio Big Bang line.
> 
> 
> 
> If you wanna pay $350 for sixty wpc be my guest, you could do a hell of a lot better for the money. Also using Dual and Lightning Audio as examples of how the new kickers aren't that bad doesn't really make me want to change my mind in thinking that they are overpriced for what they are.


I generally agree with you on the others but you are way off base on the kicker zr240. Those kickers were made as cheater amps for competing. Please look into mark eldridge's 4runner. The 240 was rated at 60 wpc at 4 ohm stereo. But actually put out nearly twice that under .1% thd at 20-20k. It's also 1 ohm capable. 

As far as quality construction, the one I'm running is now over 15 years old and has been running 2 ohm bridged the whole time. Based on the birth certificate of 411 watts bridged at 4 ohm, I figure I'm getting a realistic 500-600 Watts at the 2 ohm load. 

That amp also helped be beat the world champion in my pro class in USAC SQ+ a few years back. I've tried and owned many amps including many high end well regarded amps in my time but the zr240 will always be one of my favorites. Don't get me started on the zx460 "30x4" amp.


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## Hoye0017

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> If all you care about are watts per dollar then you are right.However.
> The Kicker ZR240 was made about 15 years ago and will out perform the 500.2 in every way but shear power.They are very under rated.They are really 100x2 at 4 ohms and can be run bridged at 2 ohms for about 500x1.They are fully regulated down to 11 volts,use all 1% smd resistors and 105 degree caps throughout.On the bench they will produce full rated power up past 100khz.The ZR600 will do over 1000 watts bridged at 100khz,and the ZR1000 will do over 1500.
> If I were given both amps and told to put one on my front stage I would take the ZR240.
> I work on amps every day and have been for about 25 years.I have 3 rooms full of amp guts and amps.I even have piles of them.Since the mid 90's when DEI,Maxsonics and Soundaround started buying up companies things went down hill fast.There are just a hand full of factories making amps for almost every brand except the more elite brands.
> 
> Take a look at the PPI S2000.1 guts in the first set of pictures then look at the pictures in the misspelled thread"Crtical mass is a ripoff".The Audiopipe 1500 is the same amp as the Soundmagnus and the Critical mass.Even the 2 op amps have had thier numbers ground off the same way.
> 
> Im not ragging on these amps.Most of the Asian design's have got a lot better in the last 5 years.Hell I even use a JBL gto amp on my subs.Its about the same amp as the Memphis 16-MCD1500.Which is also Crossfire,Orion,DEI,Viper,Directed and a few others.
> Its easy to tell when you see an op amp inside an amp that has had the part numbers ground off and the put a sticker on it that has B52 or F15 printed on them.And the boards they are on will work in a totally different brand amp.
> 
> The Soundstorm,Soundstream,Boss,Lanzar etc.. line.I keep those boards for the little fans and the coils they blow on because they go bad all the time.Same with the small vertical boards in them.You cant get these parts anywhere else.They are the same as the old Tsunami's also.
> Maxsonic makes sooooo many amps for soooooo many different companies I wont go there.
> Take a trip to the car audio forum on "Diyaudio.com"and read some of the threads.
> If you really want to learn about amps,that's the place to go.


Should have read this post first. Pretty much exactly what I had to say. Good to see someone else knows the truth of the zr240! I run the 240 bridged to my sub and my zx460 bridged to my Components. I get over 200 per channel into the fronts out of an amp rated at 30x4.


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## ATOMICTECH62

I have a good friend who needed a high quality amp that could do around 500x2 at 1 ohm to run his 4 pair of mids.His sub amps pulled his voltage down and every amp he used just fell apart on mids.
I took a XS100,added a few turns on the transformer(used windings off a scrapped zr600 transformer),altered the feedback to the PWM chip to regulate the rail voltage,changed the resistors on the zener diodes for the base of the low voltage regulator transistors and wa-lah.The amp did 135 x2 at 4 ohms and 525 at x 2 at 1 ohm with 10.5 volts at the terminals.
The amp turned into a cross between the XS100 and the XR1000.
Before the mods it did 720 x 2 at .5 ohms,so I had to sacrifice 400 watts to get the regulation right but for midrange it worked out great.
2 weeks later I had to rework his ZR120 he had on tweets to match.


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## subwoofery

edouble101 said:


> Show me an amp manufactured in 2012-13 that compares to PG ZPA's or a few other series PG amps. Just one example. This is completely subjective but that is my opinion.


Brax Matrix X2 or X4

























Sinfoni Prestigio Class A 









Ground Zero Audio GZPA Reference 2 or 4 

















Kelvin 

PS: you didn't say anything about "price"


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## subwoofery

Hi-FiDelity said:


> I never claimed all these amps were "bad" as in used counterfeit parts or burst into flames. I listed them as "bad" because they are drastically under built and over priced for what they claim to do. Yeah they claim rather modest power output but I have a feeling that they are running on the ragged edge just to reach them. As an example The Kickers (particularly ZR240) were drastically over priced (costing $350 in the ZR240's case for 60 wpc rms) I mean for $250-$300 you could get the Lanzar Opti 500.2, which will not only do 60 wpc easy but will do near rated at 4 ohms at about 13 volts (Lanzar Optidrive 500x2).
> 
> I'm not trying to tell people that these new amps will wipe the floor with your precious old school amps (PPI Arts, SS REF, Audio Arts, ect) (in the case of the entry/mid amps not even close) but the modern "high end" amps from Zapco, DC, Helix, Sundown, and SoundStream aren't push overs.


Just so everyone won't go running to buy that Lanzar amp - the newer OptiDrive 500 X2 isn't the same as the "old school one" 
I really don't have pics of the PCB (did a search on google) but I remember reading that the design isn't the same 

Compare the below pic to the ones in your link: 








^ mounting tabs aren't the same 

Kelvin


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## ATOMICTECH62

The older USA model is the 2500.It has (2) 8 gauge red and (2) 8 gauge black power wires coming out of it.You dont see many of those any more.
I like the poly caps in that Brax.Do you know what op amps they use?


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## TrickyRicky

Darn it, I repaired a Brax x1400 a while back but can't remember which op amps it has.


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## ATOMICTECH62

So far the best op amps I have seen in any amps are the BURR/BROWN OPA134 used in the old Orion Xtremes.


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## subwoofery

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> The older USA model is the 2500.It has (2) 8 gauge red and (2) 8 gauge black power wires coming out of it.You dont see many of those any more.
> I like the poly caps in that Brax.Do you know what op amps they use?


Really don't know... All I know is that Brax uses Burr-Brown PCM1798 in their X. and MX. line - other than that, can't help you, sorry 

Kelvin


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## thehatedguy

The Brax Graphic amps use/used an OPA2604. The regular Brax amps (not sure about the Matrix) use 5532s.

The JL HD amps use nice opamps in their preamp...I forget the model number, but they are by Analog Devices.

Some of the Linear Power 2.2s that I had a while back had OPA2134s in them...some had TL072s- the 3.2 and 4.1 had the 072s.

When Eric was at Image Dynamics, they would socket the opamps if you wanted to change them out...or take them all out minus the gain.


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## shawnk

Hi-FiDelity said:


> Sure, I can dig some up.
> 
> Kicker ZR240:


Sorry, but this is not a bad amp by any means.


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## thehatedguy

Is that the model with the gray fins/case?


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## benny

ZR, kinda looked like the RF BBQ amps, but with square end caps.


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## thehatedguy

Yeah, I remember those...I was thinking the first series of amps were ZR, but they were Xxxsi. Those were the ones that I thought had the connection to a/d/s.


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## benny

ah, the XS/SS


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## thehatedguy

The 100si and 200si were the ones I was thinking about...don't remember if there were any other models back then- it was like 1994. May have been a 50 and 500 at one point too.


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## ATOMICTECH62

I have a ZR1000,ZR360,2 ZR240's and 2 DX700's.And a can full of modules.


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## shawnk

ATOMICTECH62 said:


> I have a ZR1000,ZR360,2 ZR240's and 2 DX700's.And a can full of modules.


LOVE the ZR/XS line!!


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## Hoye0017

shawnk said:


> LOVE the ZR/XS line!!


Amen. It's funny how this started with someone trying to bash a zr based on price and a picture and has become a love-fest for ZR's from people that know better. You have further cemented my decision to never sell my 240 and 460. Always wanted an xs100 though my little Honda charging system couldn't take it. I think they called for a 150A fuse.


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## shawnk

Hoye0017 said:


> Amen. It's funny how this started with someone trying to bash a zr based on price and a picture and has become a love-fest for ZR's from people that know better. You have further cemented my decision to never sell my 240 and 460. Always wanted an xs100 though my little Honda charging system couldn't take it. I think they called for a 150A fuse.


Here's a quick system I did for a buddy a couple of years ago. XS100 & ZR1000 for power  

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ll-gallery/90935-audi-s8-gets-new-system.html


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## TrickyRicky

The module is easy to by-pass, no crossovers. Two jumper wires by the module dock and that's it. I did this when I repaired a DX700 a while back for a member here.


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## AAAAAAA

I never understood the intense love for inaccurately rated amplifiers.


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## benny

It's a throwback from the old comp days where you were divided up by p0wer class.


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## shawnk

AAAAAAA said:


> I never understood the intense love for inaccurately rated amplifiers.


For me, it's not specifically about "underrated" amps. I could care less what the amp is rated for. If it's a so called "cheater" amp that is say [email protected] but legitimately does 400w+ then it's still a 400w amp in my book. Rather, I like well designed, reliable amplifiers where build quality was not sacrificed. 

The old Kicker ZR line is a good example


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## Hoye0017

shawnk said:


> Here's a quick system I did for a buddy a couple of years ago. XS100 & ZR1000 for power
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ll-gallery/90935-audi-s8-gets-new-system.html


Nice build. Loved A/D/S stuff as well. Your profile says you are not in the 12v industry, but I can tell from your build logs, you clearly are.. or were. 

All the signs are there, including the tools used and the build techniques.


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## shawnk

Hoye0017 said:


> Nice build. Loved A/D/S stuff as well. Your profile says you are not in the 12v industry, but I can tell from your build logs, you clearly are.. or were.
> 
> All the signs are there, including the tools used and the build techniques.


Thanks man. 

Yes, I was an installer for a good 12 years or so. I even had a go at opening my own shop which unfortunately turned out to be a bust. It's all good though. You live and learn!

And yes, there are definitely some tried and true techniques that I tend to use in some of my installs, but for me those techniques were learned the hard way. Although my previous career started not too awfully long ago, it was still well before all of this stuff was easily accessible via Internet. I also never had a mentor when it came to fabrication. LoL, the closest thing I had was reading "how to" magazine articles!! So for the most part, I had to grind it out on my own... Lots of trial & error, and literally thousands of hours spent trying to figure it all out. Frustrating to say the least, but rewarding as well


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## ATOMICTECH62

Back before the big buyouts in the 90's most of the companies did their own engineering and R/D.There was a certain competitiveness among them.When you bought an amp back then you knew it was decent whether it was PPI,PG,RF,Orion,Lanzar,MTX,Autotek,Kicker etc..
As a tech I took pride in repairing them and was always curious as to see what the line's would bring.The Op-amps was 1 way to tell how serious the manufacturer was about their amps.After all there is little benefit in putting a hi slew rate ultra low distortion Op-amp in them if the rest of the amp is under par.The upc4558 was used by most,then came the TL072,much better.But as faster,lower distortion chips came available companies started using them.Mostly the 4560,4570,4580,jrc2068 and the NE5532.
Some brands like Orion were using the Burr/Brown stuff like I mentioned earlier.
And this was almost 20 years ago.
The old 4558 became obsolete in the audio world except in the worst stuff.
Now I find this old outdated part in almost every new mainstream amp made.
Sometimes the TL072-074 is used which is better by far but still unacceptable by audiophile standards.
Of course there are a lot of other things that make an amp what it is.A lot of other things.But I will not use them if this what they think high end is.
Give me an old school amp and I will recap it.


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## thehatedguy

The 2.2s had OP275s in them, and a one had 2134s.




thehatedguy said:


> The Brax Graphic amps use/used an OPA2604. The regular Brax amps (not sure about the Matrix) use 5532s.
> 
> The JL HD amps use nice opamps in their preamp...I forget the model number, but they are by Analog Devices.
> 
> Some of the Linear Power 2.2s that I had a while back had OPA2134s in them...some had TL072s- the 3.2 and 4.1 had the 072s.
> 
> When Eric was at Image Dynamics, they would socket the opamps if you wanted to change them out...or take them all out minus the gain.


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## cleansoundz

Excellent information


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