# MB Quart QSD 216 vs. Boston SPZ 60 vs. Seas Lotus Performance Series



## vishalparakh (Sep 13, 2007)

Hi Folks,

This is my first post to this forum, I've been avidly reading though the threads on the forum in search of info for upgrading the audio on my 2004 E46 M3 Coupe (non-HK audio).

The only thing that I've decided for sure at this point is that I want to keep the factory head unit (it's also got my Nav system and my trip computer tied to it).

I've considered building my own system by picking drivers but the added cost and complexity of doing active crossovers or building custom passive crossovers is a little more than what I want to invest.

I wanted to know if anyone has any experience with either the


Boston Acoustics SPZ 60 (about $650)
Seas Lotus Performance Kit (about $455)
MB Quart QSD 216 (about $319)

I'm trying to decide what would work best for me -- I listen to Classic and New Age Rock most of the time, with a little bit of Hip-Hop.

I'm not planning to install a sub-woofer so I'm looking for something that will give me decent mid-bass (nothing that shakes my car though).

Would greatly appreciate any ideas that will help me nail things down. Basically I'm looking for bang for buck here.

Thanks in Advance.


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

I have an 01 330i and have used the MB Q (1st series, not QSD)
and am currently using the Seas Lotus. Both sound great, but 
the Seas are far more revealing. The MB mid would go a little deeper
and therefore had more output below 50hz or so. 
Personally, if I wasn't going to upgrade everything front to back
I wouldn't go with the Lotus . The Lotus speaker are not at all 
forgiving and I can't even stand to listen to poorly recorded original
CDs through them. Maybe if you keep your factory deck and upgrade
to a Rockford 360 and very good amps, you might be happy with them...
With great equipment behind them and a very good recording - I haven't 
personally owned anything that sounds better.


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## BMWTUBED (Aug 25, 2007)

Oops, you said the Seas Performance series,
I have the Reference series... Never heard the 
Performance series - can't speak to them, but
I've heard they are more forgiving. Best of luck!


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## saMxp (Jun 22, 2007)

Welcome! Another *///M* owner on DIYMA! This is great! I believe rcurley55 did the Seas Lotus woofers in his M3's doors. Took quite a bit of work to make them fit, but he managed. I also went Seas in the M3, but stuck with the budget-conscious L18RNX/P woofers. No experience with those MBQ's or BA's, though.

I assume you've seen these threads?

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=500774
http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=272176


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

The RNX's seem to be forum fav's around here.. I can imagine why with the prices of these raw drivers compared to the extremely inflated typical car-audio branded matched component setups. For me, it will probably be not just an RNX but which RNX.


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## vishalparakh (Sep 13, 2007)

Babs said:


> The RNX's seem to be forum fav's around here.. I can imagine why with the prices of these raw drivers compared to the extremely inflated typical car-audio branded matched component setups. For me, it will probably be not just an RNX but which RNX.


I'm sorry, I don't know which one is an RNX? Rainbow?

Inflated matched component setups are a problem, that's what drove me into driver research in the first place. But you can buy them at deep discounts, the QSD 216 at $320 is easily like $600-$700 off the regular price which makes them competitive.


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## vishalparakh (Sep 13, 2007)

saMxp said:


> Welcome! Another *///M* owner on DIYMA! This is great! I believe rcurley55 did the Seas Lotus woofers in his M3's doors. Took quite a bit of work to make them fit, but he managed. I also went Seas in the M3, but stuck with the budget-conscious L18RNX/P woofers. No experience with those MBQ's or BA's, though.
> 
> I assume you've seen these threads?
> 
> ...


///M rules! I'm not sure my SO would approve of me doing significant door work to make the woofers fit -- this is my first car audio project so I want to take it a little easy as well.

Yeah I've seen those threads -- it's good to know that I'm not the only one who thinks thinks that BMW puts lousy audio systems in their cars.


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## vishalparakh (Sep 13, 2007)

saMxp said:


> Welcome! Another *///M* owner on DIYMA! This is great! I believe rcurley55 did the Seas Lotus woofers in his M3's doors. Took quite a bit of work to make them fit, but he managed. I also went Seas in the M3, but stuck with the budget-conscious L18RNX/P woofers. No experience with those MBQ's or BA's, though.
> 
> I assume you've seen these threads?
> 
> ...


More power to ///M! I'm not sure my SO would approve of me doing significant door work to make the woofers fit -- this is my first car audio project so I want to take it a little easy as well.

Yeah I've seen those threads -- it's good to know that I'm not the only one who thinks thinks that BMW puts lousy audio systems in their cars.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Sorry.. I too have been caught up using the lingo.. I guess that's the buzz word for the prestige line of Seas woofers... With RNX in the model numbers.. Such as these:

Found here and at madisound.


































These aren't your typical 4ohm style of car-door driver, but apparantly the SQ well makes up for it and proves quickly the drivers work well for car audio.


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## vishalparakh (Sep 13, 2007)

saMxp said:


> Welcome! Another *///M* owner on DIYMA! This is great! I believe rcurley55 did the Seas Lotus woofers in his M3's doors. Took quite a bit of work to make them fit, but he managed. I also went Seas in the M3, but stuck with the budget-conscious L18RNX/P woofers. No experience with those MBQ's or BA's, though.
> 
> I assume you've seen these threads?


More power to ///M! I'm not sure my SO would approve of me doing significant door work to make the woofers fit -- this is my first car audio project so I want to take it a little easy as well.

Yeah I've seen those threads -- it's good to know that I'm not the only one who thinks thinks that BMW puts lousy audio systems in their cars.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

vishalparakh said:


> More power to ///M! I'm not sure my SO would approve of me doing significant door work to make the woofers fit -- this is my first car audio project so I want to take it a little easy as well.
> 
> Yeah I've seen those threads -- it's good to know that I'm not the only one who thinks thinks that BMW puts lousy audio systems in their cars.


QSD's are very good speakers but they seem to be touchy as far as install is concerned.


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## SouthSyde (Dec 25, 2006)

like what bassfromspace said, the qsd takes a little time to make sound good, but once dialed in i prefer thier sound to the lotus reference. I have had both.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Those are all fairly aweful choices for a subless system Imho.

I'll second the recommendation for the RNX drivers as bass output wise they are nearly unmatched, as well as price, performance, and low end sensitivity.

QSD's in alot of different ways aren't great speakers. Low excursion capability, poor distortion/thermal performance, non-rigid frame, poor use of materials, etc. but if you like how they sound that's all that matters.

In the car it's more about what you do with the drivers you have, rather than the drivers themselves.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

npdang said:


> Those are all fairly aweful choices for a subless system Imho.
> 
> I'll second the recommendation for the RNX drivers as bass output wise they are nearly unmatched, as well as price, performance, and low end sensitivity.
> 
> ...


In addition to what our esteemed forum owner has mentioned, I'd recommend going without the sub and adding an 8" or 10" sub to your system.

You never know how good your system sounds until you have the proper subwoofer.


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## jay (Sep 12, 2005)

npdang said:


> In the car it's more about what you do with the drivers you have, rather than the drivers themselves.


x2

sounds like you want to keep the custom fabrication light since it's your first car audio project and in an e46 m3 (not to mention the SO factor). you probably want to stick w/ a set that has a relatively shallow mid so your door fabrication is kept to a minimum. have you considered the pioneer prs set? 

i would also 2nd the recommendation to put in a sub of some sort to cover the low end. 

on a sidenote, definitely consider going active. for your application, maybe look into something along the lines of a rockford fosgate 360.2, or if you can wait..the alpine pxe-h650 or jbl ms-8 processors.


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## vishalparakh (Sep 13, 2007)

npdang said:


> Those are all fairly aweful choices for a subless system Imho.
> 
> I'll second the recommendation for the RNX drivers as bass output wise they are nearly unmatched, as well as price, performance, and low end sensitivity.
> 
> ...


176 mm speakers in a 160 mm cutting is going to be hard -- I'm not sure if I want to cut into the doors -- I'd like to be able to restore the car to it's former (in)glory if needed.

Do you have any other suggestions, I'm looking at the RNX data sheets and indeed it looks like they produce some serious bass.


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## c0mpl3x (Nov 30, 2005)

The RNXs are nice drivers and I would recommend them as well. However, looking at your choices I would say your budget is fairly high?

So, if you want to go subless take a look at the Seas Excel W18NX http://www.timbre-audio.com/SeasExcel.html near the bottom of the page.

The W18NX has the longest linear excursion of any 7" woofer available right now, not to mention it's exceptional midrange clarity. I think it would fill in the low midbass quite well untill you get a subwoofer in your car.


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## rimshot (May 17, 2005)

lets keep in mind that that boston acoustics set has like 12+mm one way in the midrange and sound fantastic (tweet included) I was very impressed with them too bad they cost an arm and leg


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## bardx86 (Sep 13, 2007)

rimshot said:


> lets keep in mind that that boston acoustics set has like 12+mm one way in the midrange and sound fantastic (tweet included) I was very impressed with them too bad they cost an arm and leg


I love the way boston tweeter mount with the angle mounts. I'm torn between the spz and W18NX. Are the spz60 mids any better than the W18NX?

bard


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## c0mpl3x (Nov 30, 2005)

rimshot said:


> lets keep in mind that that boston acoustics set has like 12+mm one way in the midrange and sound fantastic (tweet included) I was very impressed with them too bad they cost an arm and leg


12mm one way seems like a lot of excursion to fit in a 2.5" mouting depth basket.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

rimshot said:


> lets keep in mind that that boston acoustics set has like 12+mm one way in the midrange and sound fantastic (tweet included) I was very impressed with them too bad they cost an arm and leg


I thought the tweeter on the z6 set was best thing since sliced bread.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

c0mpl3x said:


> 12mm one way seems like a lot of excursion to fit in a 2.5" mouting depth basket.


It's the same as the RNX series, albeit with less cone area... ~22mm p-p.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

vishalparakh said:


> 176 mm speakers in a 160 mm cutting is going to be hard -- I'm not sure if I want to cut into the doors -- I'd like to be able to restore the car to it's former (in)glory if needed.
> 
> Do you have any other suggestions, I'm looking at the RNX data sheets and indeed it looks like they produce some serious bass.


I'm not sure about the m3, but the e46 can do it. You shouldn't be using the stock plastic door adapters, but building up a ring on the door metal itself and sealing the large holes in the door. Otherwise bass output is almost non-existant.


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## c0mpl3x (Nov 30, 2005)

npdang said:


> It's the same as the RNX series, albeit with less cone area... ~22mm p-p.


Yeah, I just saw that on their site.


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## newtitan (Mar 7, 2005)

with this budget id get the spz60's and run em off 250W

if DIY, I dont see you getting anything better than the w18nx for the 50hz to 3000hz range imo


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## Genxx (Mar 18, 2007)

Out of the ones you listed I prefer the SPZ but you pay for it. For the cost of the SPZ you can out together a really good DIY set. However, you are going to go active or have some passives made. Which is appears might be a little more work that you are looking to do.

Install on anything you do is going to be key to achieve your goal. Don't forget sound deadening and other parts of the install that will greatly effect the outcome.


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## saMxp (Jun 22, 2007)

It sounds like the Boston's might be the way to go, man. If you're even thinking about being able to go back to stock, then all of the 7" woofers are out of the question. Here is my Seas L18RNX/p 176mm woofer against the M3 door...
http://images26.fotki.com/v912/photos/7/730934/5064249/M3DoorInstall007-vi.jpg
http://images26.fotki.com/v910/photos/7/730934/5064249/M3DoorInstall006-vi.jpg
You don't even want to know what it took to get to this point...
http://images28.fotki.com/v979/photos/7/730934/5151349/IMG_0432-vi.jpg

Suffice it to say there there is NO going back to stock. The guys here are 100% right when they say that sound quality is 10% equipment and 90% install. You're going to want to do a MDF baffle something like this if you want a shot at subless low-end extension. If you want to keep the mounting tabs inside the door, to allow a potential future revert to stock, then it's probably going to be tough to even get those 6.5 Boston's in there. 
If you're worried about resale value, as long as you keep that stock grille on there, no one needs to know what's behind there =).


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## dtviewer (Dec 18, 2006)

SamXP is right on target with his post. 

For more info/installs in M3's check out the mobile electronics forum over at e46fanatics.com.

You'll find a lot of good info there.


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## KAP (Mar 18, 2007)

Im not sure if the mids will fit, but have you considered the pioneer prs720's.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

npdang said:


> I'm not sure about the m3, but the e46 can do it. You shouldn't be using the stock plastic door adapters, but building up a ring on the door metal itself and sealing the large holes in the door. Otherwise bass output is almost non-existant.


Is this typically the case in general or is it something specific to the specs of the RNX's? I guess I'm wondering if its a lower Qts thing or other specs that require semi-sealing up the doors to get the full bass response? ... sorry showing my ignorance with speaker specs and enclosure design.


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## saMxp (Jun 22, 2007)

Any midbass driver will benefit from a door enclosure that is as close to sealed as possible. The MDF baffles mounted to the steel door skin, rather than the plastic door panel, is about providing a stable, rigid base for the cone to move without having the panel absorb its energy.


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

saMxp said:


> Any midbass driver will benefit from a door enclosure that is as close to sealed as possible. The MDF baffles mounted to the steel door skin, rather than the plastic door panel, is about providing a stable, rigid base for the cone to move without having the panel absorb its energy.


I've seen sheet metal used before as well.. glued all around the hole it's covering.. do you approve?


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## saMxp (Jun 22, 2007)

For larger holes, definitely. I used Aluminum Roof Flashing covered in Raammat to keep the weight down because the doors on the E46 M3 are heavy enough.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Pics from my friend's car:










As you can see there are some rather largish holes in there.


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## bardx86 (Sep 13, 2007)

npdang said:


> Pics from my friend's car:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are those the seas? Does the door panel fit and look stock from interior or did he have to mod the door panels?

bard


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## bardx86 (Sep 13, 2007)

npdang said:


> Pics from my friend's car:
> 
> 
> As you can see there are some rather largish holes in there.


Are those the seas? Does the door panel fit and look stock from interior or did he have to mod the door panels?

bard


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## vishalparakh (Sep 13, 2007)

saMxp said:


> It sounds like the Boston's might be the way to go, man. If you're even thinking about being able to go back to stock, then all of the 7" woofers are out of the question. Here is my Seas L18RNX/p 176mm woofer against the M3 door...


That is some neat install work. Wow, how long did all of this take you? And you used the MT-12 mounted in the factory location right next to the door handle?

What about crossovers? Did you build custom crossovers and install them in the trunk? 

SPZ 60 Dimensions:
*Woofer Cutout Diameter: 5" (127mm) 
*Woofer Mounting Depth: 2 11⁄16" (68mm)

This should fit comfortably, IMHO.



saMxp said:


> If you're worried about resale value, as long as you keep that stock grille on there, no one needs to know what's behind there =).


I couldn't agree more, in fact I'm counting on it (think tranny) 

The SPZ60 is so darn expensive, even on eBay (about $620) but scores high on WAF. 

How about the L15RLY/P? Is it comparable?

And to put things in perspective: the SPZ60 woofer likely to perform better than the L18RNX (keeping the install constant)?

Do you think it'll be easier getting the L18RNX/p in the rear? What do you use for rear-fill? I do have people sit in the back more often than what is usual for an M3 -- I never feel like going anywhere without my ///M.



npdang said:


> Pics from my friend's car:
> 
> As you can see there are some rather largish holes in there.


Acknowledge all the emphasis on the filling the holes, I'll make sure I do when I finally get to that point.

Also, I was thinking of the Alphasonik PMA4150A.


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## c0mpl3x (Nov 30, 2005)

I would think that the L18 and SPZ would perform very close to one another but I expect the L18 to have much better midrange resolution. IMO I would take the L18 because it's so much cheaper for basically the same performance if not better.

Then you have the Seas Excel line which surpasses the SPZ by a great margin and yet still cheaper. Objectively speaking from specs of course.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

bardx86 said:


> Are those the seas? Does the door panel fit and look stock from interior or did he have to mod the door panels?
> 
> bard


Seas lotus, everything is stock from the outside. It took a few hours to cut the rings, glue everything, and apply the deadener. It's really not hard or time consuming at all, but made a huge difference in bass output.


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## bardx86 (Sep 13, 2007)

npdang said:


> Seas lotus, everything is stock from the outside. It took a few hours to cut the rings, glue everything, and apply the deadener. It's really not hard or time consuming at all, but made a huge difference in bass output.


have any pics of the doors with the covers on. think I could get W18NX in the doors and have it looks stock from inside?


brad


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## c0mpl3x (Nov 30, 2005)

npdang, I'm still wondering how you managed to get W18NXs in your Accord doors lol.  Unless a 97 is that much different than yours.


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## saMxp (Jun 22, 2007)

vishalparakh said:


> That is some neat install work. Wow, how long did all of this take you? And you used the MT-12 mounted in the factory location right next to the door handle?


Thanks! I'd estimate it took me a total of 20 hours over the span of nearly 2 months, including the following...
1) Dremeling down the mounting flanges on the RNX drivers to match the same OD as the Seas Lotus (from 176mm to 165mm - the bolt circles are the same) - 4 hours.
2) Cutting mounting plate and spacer rings - 3 hours.
3) Fitting, sanding, install/removal/re-install of door panel about a dozen times - 4 hours.
4) Mount Morel MDT12's in factory location - 30 minutes (at least I got a break there!)
5) Sound deaden, Al flashing over door openings, Ensolite. - 8 hours.

My time estimates might even be conservative, since it took a lot of rework and fitting to get those drivers to fit. I thought I had it fit, once the mounting flanges were cut down, but then I ran into a problem with the magnet resting against the nut holding the bottom of the window track in place. I ended up having to angle the mounting rings to bring the magnet away 0.100" or so. I still need to go back and cover the MDF in resin so moisture doesn't cause it to swell. 



vishalparakh said:


> What about crossovers? Did you build custom crossovers and install them in the trunk?
> 
> Do you think it'll be easier getting the L18RNX/p in the rear? What do you use for rear-fill? I do have people sit in the back more often than what is usual for an M3 -- I never feel like going anywhere without my ///M.


I went with a Pioneer P880PRS deck with internal 3-way crossovers, so they've got active crossovers individually amplified channels. 
No rear fill. Not sure how the L18's would fit in the rear. From what I remember, when I pulled the back panel to access the factory amplifier, there was a ton of depth, and nothing to interfere with a larger baffle. 
I have people ride in the back, too, but when I've got that many people in the car, we're usually talking so the music is either off, or real low. If we want to listen to music, then can deal with a spinefull of bass and some distant sound from the front, haha.


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## vishalparakh (Sep 13, 2007)

saMxp said:


> I went with a Pioneer P880PRS deck with internal 3-way crossovers, so they've got active crossovers individually amplified channels.
> No rear fill. Not sure how the L18's would fit in the rear.


So what were your crossover points. It looks like the deck high-passes at a max of 200 Hz, do you let the MDT-12 handle your the rest of the mid-range and higher frequencies. The data sheet says MDT-12 does only 1800 Hz upwards.  

And does the deck generate enough power for the 8 ohm speakers? The spec says 22W, which I'm guessing is at 4 ohm.



saMxp said:


> From what I remember, when I pulled the back panel to access the factory amplifier, there was a ton of depth, and nothing to interfere with a larger baffle.


Seems to be the case.


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## 03blueSI (Feb 5, 2006)

I have the SPZ60 in my doors right now. At this point they are not sealed yet and they are off of the Alpine W205, no amp at this point so they are severely lacking on the install department. Even with this all said and done they have the best midbass I have heard from a 6.5" driver. The midrange is nice and the tweeters are pretty good. I still need to tune them and finish the install, but they sound better than my DLS 6.3 I had in my last car and far superior to anythind CDT I have run. The midrange and midbass are better than the Z6s I had in the past.

Off of the proper power, 150-250 watts in a well sealed and damped door with some tuning or in kicks vented outside these should really shine.


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## saMxp (Jun 22, 2007)

vishalparakh said:


> So what were your crossover points. It looks like the deck high-passes at a max of 200 Hz, do you let the MDT-12 handle your the rest of the mid-range and higher frequencies. The data sheet says MDT-12 does only 1800 Hz upwards.
> 
> And does the deck generate enough power for the 8 ohm speakers? The spec says 22W, which I'm guessing is at 4 ohm.


The P880PRS has a "network mode" that allows a 3-way setup with a LP for sub, bandpass for mid, and HP for highs. I've been using the following:
SUB - LP [email protected]/oct 
MID - HP [email protected]/oct
MID - LP [email protected]/oct
HI - HP [email protected]/oct

I'm still experimenting, though. 

I'm not using the deck's internal power. A Cadence TXA-3004 four channel amp (rated at 75w x 4 at 4ohms) is driving the mids and highs.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

03blueSI said:


> I have the SPZ60 in my doors right now. At this point they are not sealed yet and they are off of the Alpine W205, no amp at this point so they are severely lacking on the install department. Even with this all said and done they have the best midbass I have heard from a 6.5" driver. The midrange is nice and the tweeters are pretty good. I still need to tune them and finish the install, but they sound better than my DLS 6.3 I had in my last car and far superior to anythind CDT I have run. The midrange and midbass are better than the Z6s I had in the past.
> 
> Off of the proper power, 150-250 watts in a well sealed and damped door with some tuning or in kicks vented outside these should really shine.


That's the review I wanted to hear. I loved the z6 components and would argue that they were one of the best pre-packaged sets on the market during their time. I figured the spz's weren't too far behind.

03,

Where did you get your spz's from?


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## bardx86 (Sep 13, 2007)

03blueSI said:


> I have the SPZ60 in my doors right now. At this point they are not sealed yet and they are off of the Alpine W205, no amp at this point so they are severely lacking on the install department. Even with this all said and done they have the best midbass I have heard from a 6.5" driver. The midrange is nice and the tweeters are pretty good. I still need to tune them and finish the install, but they sound better than my DLS 6.3 I had in my last car and far superior to anythind CDT I have run. The midrange and midbass are better than the Z6s I had in the past.
> 
> Off of the proper power, 150-250 watts in a well sealed and damped door with some tuning or in kicks vented outside these should really shine.


how would you rate the sound vs the W18NX from seas?
brad


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## 03blueSI (Feb 5, 2006)

I haven't heard the Seas. The speakers I can compare to are CDT Classic, DLS 6.3, CDT Eurosport, DLS Prototype 8" midbass with the Iridium mid and tweeter. Boston Z6. Compared to all of these I would have to rate the midbass the best on the SPZ60 and the midrange really close to the quality of the midrange on the DLS. Tweeter it is a toss up between the Iridium and these I can't say which I prefer. After hearing the Rainbow Cal27 for just a bit I think it is lacking compared to them.

Overall though these are getting better and better over the last 2 weeks as they have broken in. I just cant wait to seal up the door and get rid of a resonance I have. I also can't wait to get a decently powerful amp and to get my IDQ15 back in. For a 2way these would be hard to beat for someone who just wants to mount the drivers and get decent sound. With the amount of time I have to complete an install right now I couldn't be happier with these speakers.


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