# My 2015 Porsche Macan Audio Upgrade Log



## santirx

I own a 2015 Porsche Macan. I ordered it back in June 2014 when the model first came out and had to wait 6 months to pick it up... 92K miles later, I still have it, and I enjoy it very much... Never had a car for so long.










Up until now, I have tolerated the Bose system that this SUV has, but knew that it was sub par. I had made several modifications to this car, including lowering the air suspension, wheel spacers, added a front spoiler, etc.... but something was still missing, and it was the audio...

I started my upgrade in May 2020, and although I'm mostly done with it, I wanted to document what I have done and how. There are many aspects I'm still working with.

First, I had been working closely with @Ge0 in the macan forum. My experience, prior to this one, with aftermarket audio systems is almost nil. I had done a couple of upgrades many years ago with standard instructions from Crutchfield, and these were the times when cars only have speakers in the back. @Ge0 had been a tremendous help with my upgrade, as he is also doing the upgrade in his Macan.

My original intent with the upgrade was very modest. Just changing a couple of crappy Bose speakers to improve the audio. But that quickly turned into an "all-in" experience.

From a couple of speakers, I ended up changing "ALL" 14 speakers in the Macan, not once, but twice, some three times. With each iteration, the sound improved. I also changed the amplifier, as well as the subwoofer amplifier. I also learned how to use REW, with an UMIK microphone with the help of @Ge0. I learned about the Harman Curve and how to theoretically tune the system, although I'm still working on that.

In any case, I want to start this series with the subwoofer, as this was the first upgrade I did...

PART 1: SUBWOOFER

This is the original Bose subwoofer. It has an 8” subwoofer, which I assume is 2-ohm.










I replaced the subwoofer with a Rockford Fosgate P3SD2-8. I had to use a 1/2” spacer. It was driven by the same Bose Sub Amp, in the photo. The RF subwoofer performed very well, it had a nice punch to it (honoring its name).










I then replaced the Rockford Fosgate, with an Audison APS-8D. At that point, I realized that the Bose Amp wasn’t driving these subwoofers appropriately and decided to also upgrade the amplifier.










Used a TORO MR2 amplifier. This tiny amplifier woke up the subwoofer, and was able to drive it very well. For the price, you can’t get anything better than Toro.



















As I continued to upgrade my other speakers and even my amplifier, I’ll talk later about them, I realized that I needed more power. I realized I needed to get out of the OEM plastic box and upgrade the size of the subwoofer.

I decided to build my own box... more on my next post (to be continued)...


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## santirx

PART 1 (Cont...): SUBWOOFER

I decided to use MDF in layers, to acommodate the complex geometrical forms required. I needed the box to be shallow and fitting around the spare wheel... The box would house an Audison APS-10D.

Started with a computer model, to calculate estimated volume.










I used 9 MDF layers, in 1/2” and 3/4” thickness combination to achieve desired height. The box wall thickness is 3/4”.










Used a Bosch router table... Very useful for these type of job.










Trying out layers in place.














































This is the finished unpainted box.










To be continued...


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## santirx

PART 1: SUBWOOFER (Cont.)

I used Duratex with a roller to paint the bottom part of the box (except top layer). A pint of duratex was more than enough to paint this part of the box. I think I was left with more than 1/2 pint, after 3 coats. With Duratex, there is no need to prep the MDF surface. I diluted the Duratex paint with water (about 25%) to obtain desired less aggressive texture, then just apply directly.




























Painted the top layer silver, similar to my Macan rhodium silver exterior color.









This is a spray paint, and MDF requires preparation, otherwise it will absorb all the paint and look horrible. I used 2 coats of MinWax Sanding Sealer, with light sanding between the coats. Then, 3 coats of spray paint will do it.









1 qt Minwax 65700 Clear Sanding Sealer Water-Based - Hardware Sealers - Amazon.com


1 qt Minwax 65700 Clear Sanding Sealer Water-Based - Hardware Sealers - Amazon.com



www.amazon.com





Applying some stickers.



























Fully finished box...










I also replaced the TORO MR2. Driving the APS-10D is now the Audison AP1D sub amplifier. More on that later...


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## santirx

PART 2: TWEETERS

The Porsche Macan have 4 tweeters. Two in the corners of the dashboard and two in the rear doors. The front tweeters are tethered to the front door 4” midrange, and they have a 4.7uF capacitor as the HP filter (~8,500Hz). The rear tweeters are exactly the same ones, with exactly the same capacitors, but they are tethered to the 6.5in woofer. To note, neither the front door midrange, nor the rear door 6.5in woofer have any crossover installed (no LP filter), so they play high frequencies until they can’t. Not a very robust design, but more on that later.

In my modest attempt to improve the sound quality, I decided to upgrade all Bose tweeters (the one on the bottom of the photo) with its improved cousin, the Burmester Tweeters. The Burmester upgrade in the Macan have these tweeters in the rear doors, and ribbon tweeters in the dashboard. I purchased 4 of these and replaced all tweeters. There was a very obvious sound quality improvement. I originally installed the 4.7uF capacitor, although I later change the front ones to a higher value to cross at 4500Hz, instead of 8500Hz.

The Bose tweeter at the bottom is 3/4in, with a plastic-like material of construction (maybe polypropylene, but not sure). The Burmester at the top is a 1” tweeter with what it seems to be soft silk dome. The important thing is that this upgrade didn’t require any special mounting modification, other than the wiring (the connector is slightly different).





















FRONT DASHBOARD TWEETERS:

I then tried the Hertz Cento C26OE in OEM locations in the front dashboard, and there was no noticeable improvement when compared with the Burmester tweeters. They were quickly returned, and Burmester tweeters were reinstalled.



















During my amp upgrade, I decided it was time to get serious with these tweeters, and purchased the Audison Voce AV1.1 (Well... not that serious yet, but a nice improvement, or at least I thought). For these tweeters, I had to break the original installation mount and reconfigure the mounting location for ribbon tweeter. I then acquired an adapter that would allowed me to mount this larger tweeter. At this point, I had a hard time judging any improvement between the Burmesters and the AV1.1, because I had also introduced a new amplifier (more on that later). But it was decent enough.

I installed them with an Audison crossover with HP filter of 3500Hz. I also installed a modified Audison crossover at midrange with LP filter at 3500Hz, to prevent midrange from playing at tweeter frequencies.










While looking for a replacement (3rd iteration) of my center channel speaker, I discovered the Audiofrog GB series. The quality of the GB series is phenomenal. I started replacing the center channel with a GB25, then front door midrange with the GB40, and ended up changing the AV1.1 with the GB10. At that point, I realized that the AV1.1’s were not performing well in my system. The GB10 were superior in all aspects.

I kept the same passive crossovers, but thinking about going full active in near future.



















I used the same mounting plates, and while I had to mount the AV1.1’s with hot glue, the GB10 tweeters have a lot of mounting options, making it more robust and professional-like looking. I was very impressed with the attention to detail.




























The sound quality, as I said, is really good.

To be continued with the rear door tweeters in the following post...


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## santirx

PART 2: TWEETERS (CONT.)

REAR DOOR TWEETERS

As part of the rear door upgrade (and after the Burmester tweeter), I purchased the Audison APK-163 (3-way system). The Audison AP1 is part of the kit, and installed it in the rear door location. With a little bit of wrestling, I was able to install it in the OEM location. In the photo, you can see an Audison AP4 as well. There were not midrange in the original design of the rear door.

This installation was done with the OEM amplifier, and I had no way to adjust the output level of these speakers. The result was not as expected. The AP1’s were just too loud and the sound coming out of the rear doors was not well balanced. I ended up removing the AP1’s and reinstalling the Burmester.










After I upgraded the amplifier, I ended up removing the Burmester tweeters and also the Audison AP4 midrange from rear doors and replaced them with an Audison AP2. I fabricated an adapter with HDPE to place it in the midrange position.










The photo shows the AP2 in the midrange position, and the AP1, which was removed shortly after the photo was taken. As I said, I currently don’t have any tweeters in that location.










I’m using the rear door speakers as a fill. The AP2’s have an aluminum cone, and although they are sold as a full range, they don’t really work very well above 6500Hz. Metal cones are extremely stiff and durable, they have the disadvantage of flexing and ringing. Hence, I set an active LP filter at 6500Hz with a 12db/OCT slope.


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## santirx

PART 3: THE CENTER CHANNEL










The worst speakers in a Macan with a Bose system are the center channel and the surround. They are all the same, built with a cheap quality paper cone. They are notorious for their distortion.










Like the tweeters, I decided to upgrade it with the Burmester speaker. Like the tweeters, the Burmester center speaker was an OEM fit. The problem was that the efficiency of the Burmester seemed to be higher than the Bose speaker. Therefore, it was too loud. With no way to control the output level, it threw away the staging. The quality of sound however, much better than the Bose.










In the meantime, I had purchased the Audison AV3.0 for surround duty, but decided to try them in the center channel location. The AV3.0 are also very efficient speakers, hence also very loud. I decided to take it out the same day and reinstalled the Burmester.

For this one, and the other speakers I installed, i custom fabricated an adapter out of HDPE.










Through a little bit of research, I found that the Hertz Mille Pro 70.3 were better suited to the center channel application, with the Bose amplifier. The Hertz is nice speaker, and I found the tone and balance better than the Audison Voce AV3.0. I lived with the Hertz for a few months until I changed the amplifier.










After I installed the aftermarket amplifier, I wanted to improve the front stage with better speakers. I started with the midrange (the story on this a bit later) and I also recognized that I needed to improve the center channel.

I decided to try the Audiofrog GB25, because I liked the specifications (in example an XMAX of 4mm was very impressive). This was my first incursion in to the Audiofrog GB series. I was so impressed with this little speakers, the quality of sound, the clarity even at 200Hz. This little speaker sounds like a bigger one (like a 4” midrange). That is when I knew that I needed to change the midrange and tweeters to improve the staging and I knew that the GB series is what I needed.










The GB series do not have the normal blade terminals, but rather, small terminals with screws. The GB25 have a weird angle to this hole and securing the wire was a significant endeavor. The use of long wire ferrules is highly recommended.

I ended up breaking one of the screws in one of the speakers. Fortunately I only needed one speaker for the center... I used the other one and was a bit more careful. Still, a challenge (This was not the case with the GB10 and GB40, as the terminals are more straight).





























At some point during my upgrade, and while I still had the Bose OEM amplifier, I also experimented with the Audison AP2 in on-axis center... I took out the center console clock and installed the AP2 there. I fabricated the grille out of one of the Audison Voce AV3.0 grills and formed it with a 2” MDF circle. It came out really cool and factory-like. Sound was very good. But the experiment only lasted about a month. I went back to factory locations for my final install.


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## Slow Cruiser

Nice work


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## santirx

PART 4: FRONT DOOR MIDRANGE

The Porsche Macan have 100mm (4”) midrange speakers in the front doors. Their mounting location is in the door panel. It features a paper cone, with a depressed (inverted) dust cap (looks funny)... This speaker didn’t sound as bad, as a matter of fact, was one of the better speakers in my system.



















I replaced this speaker with an Audison AP4 (are you getting the gist here? my first iteration with all speakers was with Audison speakers). I improvised and adapter with a plastic spacer I ordered from Amazon. Came out well, served its purpose.



















I used the AP4’s in midrange duty while I had the Bose OEM amplifier, and for a short period after replacing the amplifier. With a lack of prior reference, I thought the AP4’s were doing a great job.

At some point, someone in the Macan Forum told me that he have tested the AP4’s against the Focal ES100K, and that the Focal was superior in all aspects. At that point I said to myself... OK... the AP4’s are enough for me. But curiosity won, and I decided to try other speakers just for comparison.

I decided to go with the JL C5-400cm, featuring a polypropylene cone.










Upgraded the adapters, thanks to @McLovin.











The JL C5’s had better tonality and less apreciable distortion than the Audison AP4’s. I mean, the AP4’s are great speakers for their price, but now that I had a basis of comparison, I could not go backwards. I continued to use the JL’s for about a month and a half... until I came across Audiofrog.

I mean, I knew Audiofrog was out there, have heard a lot of good things about them, but never tried them. As I said during the center channel story, once I tried the GB25 speakers, I was blown away with the clarity and basically lack of distortion of this little speaker. At that point, I knew I needed to get the GB40’s for midrange. I was still in the return window for the JL speaker, so it was an easy decision.










These are slightly bigger speakers than the AP4 and JL, therefore, I had to shave about 1mm from the adapter inner diameter. I though I was not able to fit them, therefore, I was already making plans to return them and buy a GB25 pair for midrange location.










Fortunately, I was able to fit the speakers into the adapter and mounting location, with a little bit of creativeness. The mounting came out great and solid.










As I said previously, these midrange speakers are tethered to the front dashboard tweeters. I used the Audison AP1 crossover for the tweeter at 3500Hz, and the Audison AP4 crossover for midrange. Since I’m controlling the HP filter of the midrange with the active crossover of the amplifier at 300Hz, I decided to install the passive crossover with the capacitor bypassed to add a LP filter at 3500Hz, ensuring that the midrange do not play at tweeter range.










The GB40‘s are a fantastic and unreal set of speakers. The clarity is superb. They feature an XMAX of 4.5mm, which is huge, therefore is very hard to make these speakers distort. I mean, I used them at 200Hz, high volume, during some extended testing, and they were as clear as Bahamian beach water.

In the future, I may acquire the Helix V Twelve and go full active crossover. But for now, I’m using a couple of passive crossovers.

In the next part of the series, I’ll cover the front mid bass woofers...


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## santirx

PART 5: FRONT DOOR MID-BASS WOOFERS

The original woofers in the Macan are very odd looking, kind of ugly, 220mm set of speakers. Decent sound, shallow speakers, capable of producing loud sound at mid-bass range.



















I decided to change these by the Audison AP8.










I fabricated an adapter/spacer out of PVC board.










This one shows the AP8’s installed in the spacer/adapter.










One aspect I forgot to mention is that I purchased OEM terminal adapters to be able to connect all new speakers to factory connections. The idea is that I would be able to reinstall the Bose speakers if and when I decide to sell my Macan.

Here showing a solid mounting in the Macan door. I added a foam ring.










I installed the AP8’s when I still had the OEM Bose amplifier, and immediately I noticed how underwhelming the sound was. The Bose woofers were 2-ohms, hence, drawing more power from the amp. The AP8’s are 4-ohms. This is when I decided I needed to replace the amplifier.

Once I replaced the amplifier, their performance was very decent. I had no issues with them, until I replaced the front midranges, tweeters and center channel with the Audiofrog GB series speakers. All the sudden, the AP8’s didn’t sound so good anymore. I started to notice that the mid-bass range was not as clean. It was obvious that the AP8’s could not keep up with the GB speakers.

I decided I needed to upgrade them.

Continued in next post....


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## santirx

PART 5: FRONT DOOR MID-BASS WOOFERS (continuation)

I needed to change the Audison AP8 and there was no better option than Dynaudio. Tested by @Ge0 in his Macan, I decided to follow suit. Got a set of Dynaudio Esotec MW182. These are 10” mid bass woofers and would fit very nicely in the OEM mounting location.










Beautiful speakers...










I could not use the AP8 adapters (8”), so I decided to buy these 10” adapters specifically designed for the MW182 from rennspec.com @McLovin











The MW182 mounted in the adapter.










Comparison of the MW182 and the Audison AP8. The photo doesn’t make justice. The MW182 is noticeable bigger and more robust than the Audison AP8.










Transferred wiring and OEM connector to the MW182.










You can see the MW182 installed in the door. I had also done, in the meantime, a lot of deadening to strengthen the door. This was necessary as the MW182 are very powerful speakers.




























The Dynaudio MW182 are amazing at playing that mid-bass range. I was able to increase the output level, and the mid-bass is so clear now. It completely changed the sound stage of my car, with a significant improvement. These are worth the investment.

I can now feel the vibration in my feet.

With the MW182’s, the front stage is now complete and “audiophile” quality (I think).


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## santirx

PART 6: REAR DOOR MID-BASS WOOFERS

The original mid-bass woofers were a 6.5”, paper cone, assuming 2-ohm inductance speakers, although they could’ve been 4-ohms - could not tell (DC Resistance of 2.4 ohms). The rear door only had these woofers, with no crossover, therefore they were attempting to play full range. They were tethered to a 3/4” tweeter (see PART 2 of the series).



















I replaced them with... take your guess... the Audison AP6.5. I bought the APK-163 3-way system and I built a proper 3-way system with passive crossovers in the rear door. After all, the midrange location was already there, open, with no speaker.










I fabricated the spacer/adapter out of PVC sheet, using the Bose speaker as a template.










Here, you can see the AP6.5 installed, with OEM terminal connector. You can also see the Audison woofer crossover (LP Filter at 600Hz) near the woofer. The nice thing about the Audison crossovers is that they come separate per speaker, making them easier to install in location. I tried to install a JL crossover previously, and I could not, because of the limited space in the door panel. Everything is extremely tight.










This mid-bass woofer performs very well. As a matter of fact, it is one of the few Audison speakers that still survives in my car... it is still there. I’m using the rear door speakers as a fill, therefore, these are good for the job. I’m crossing them over at HP Filter of 250Hz (12dB/Oct) for a smoother transition.

I’ll continue in the next post with the full story on the rear door, the APK-163 installation, and how I ended up where I did.


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## Ge0

Well executed Santirx. My audio bug rubbed off onto you . 

I think work on my system is done for the season. It snowed last night here in Detroit. Without a well lit and heated garage I just don't have any motivation. I am doing some background work though. Demo'ing a few speakers for this spring. Save your pennies, you're going to need them 










Ge0


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## santirx

PART 6.1: REAR DOORS STORY...

As I said before, I initially used the Audison APK-163 for the rear doors, to build a full 3-way system. The APK-163 consist of the AP6.5 with a woofer crossover (LP Filter @ 600Hz with 6dB/OCT), the AP4 midrange (HP Filter @ 600Hz 6dB/OCT and LP Filter @ 3500Hz 6dB/OCT) and the AP1 Tweeter (HP Filter @ 3500Hz 6dB/OCT).

In this photo, you can see the AP4. I fabricated an adapter out of PVC sheet. If you look carefully, on the left side of the midrange crossover, you can see the AP1 tweeter tucked in behind one of the door panel hooks.

You can see the midrange and the tweeter crossovers in the photo.



















In view, the AP1, AP4 and AP6.5... One of the things I didn’t like about the mounting of the midrange, is how much of the speaker is hidden. The hole have this weird shape and is not big enough, which could lead to some sound reflection and acoustic interference.



















One of the things I noticed, as I said before, is how unbalanced the tweeter was. It was too loud, and interfered with the high frequencies coming from the front stage. I decided to remove it and reinstall the Burmester.

Then, the AP4 started to bother me. I couldn’t balance the sound coming out of the rear doors.

In this photo, you can see the AP2, which I installed in that midrange position. The beauty of this smaller speaker is that it fits perfectly in that weird hole with no interference.










I took the tweeter out. I also removed the tweeter and midrange crossovers. Initially, I set the AP2 to a full range, from 482Hz to 20,000Hz. I set the HP filter with an inline capacitor, which I later changed to be closer to 600Hz, as the woofer still had the crossover with LP filter at 600Hz. I was noticing some ringing coming out of these speakers due to high frequencies, and I decided to test lower LP active filter for the AP2 until I got to 6500Hz.










The sound coming out of these speakers is very decent. Good complement to the better speakers I installed in the front. I don’t think I’ll be changing these, but who knows...

On a separate topic, I ended up using the tweeter crossover for the front dashboard tweeters. I also ended up using the midrange crossover for the front door midrange (I bypassed the capacitor to nullify the HP Filter and only use the LP filter capability of the crossover).


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## santirx

PART 7: THE SURROUNDS

The surround speakers in the Macan are 70mm, they both are connected to a single amplified channel. One of the speakers have its polarity inverted and they claim is for effect. These are the same crappy speakers as the center channel.

These speakers are located in the D-Pillar trims, and they are the most difficult to access. Taking out the D-Pillar trim is very tricky. Lost a bunch of clips in the twilight zone, which I had to buy to replace them...




























As the center channel speaker, the surround speaker have a paper cone. This speaker distort significantly. It is the worst speaker within the Macan OEM system.










I changed these speakers with the Audison Voce AV3.0. I don’t like the Audison Voce series that much... is a matter of taste, but I’m using the surround speakers as a fill, therefore, they do OK. The only reason I have not changed them, is because accessing them is a pain in the rear. Don’t get me wrong, the Voce is way better than the OEM Bose, I mean, light-years better.

I used an HDPE adapter. Here in the photo, the OEM Bose and the Audison Voce compared. 



















I currently use these speakers to provide some sort of effect. Set HP filter at 300 Hz and LP filter at 3500Hz, low output level.


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## santirx

PART 8: THE AMPLIFIER

My Macan features a Bose amplifier, that for its size, is not bad. I mean, once I changed a couple of crappy speakers, the sound improved considerably, very decent. 

The head unit transmit the sound input signal through a MOST Bus (Media Oriented Systems Transport) which is a high-speed multimedia network technology using fiber optic which is optimized by the automotive industry. In my case, it is the MOST25. The fiber connects directly into the amplifier.










I decided to buy the Audison AP F8.9 (8 x 85 W RMS).










Because the Bose system in the Macan features the MOST25 system, I needed an interface to be able to carry the signal to the Audison amplifier. I decided to buy the Helix SDMI25.










The MOST25 fiber would connect on one side of this little box, and a TOSLINK Optical fiber is the output {Input for the Audison Amp}.










In the spirit of keeping all OEM connections intact, I did significant research and found a family owned small business in Florida that sells a kit with a male connector that would match the Bose main connector (Radio Stereo Install Wiring Harness Kit for Bose Amplified System fits Porsche | eBay). Although the connector is marketed for earlier Porsche Bose amplifiers, I was able to determine that this specific connector have not changed over several years and would fit my Macan’s connector.

Having this adapter, made the amplifier installation much simpler and saved me probably about 2-3 hours of work.




























I used an HDPE 1/2” plate and adapted it to the OEM mounting bracket.










Continued in next post...


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## santirx

PART 8: THE AMPLIFIER (Continued)

This is the Audison AP F8.9 mounted on the HDPE 1/2” plate.










I mounted the SDMI25 and the Toro MR2 amplifier on the other side of the bracket...



















Putting wiring together...










Getting it in place. You can see the connector on the bottom.










Finished installation...










However, I decided to change the Toro amplifier, by the Audison AP1D... More on that in the next post.


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## santirx

PART 8: THE AMPLIFIER (continued);

As I said, I acquired the Audison AP1D to replace the Toro MR2... The main reason for this change is because I had replaced the Audison APS8D subwoofer (250W RMS / 500W Peak) in the OEM plastic box, for the Audison APS10D (400W RMS / 800W Peak) in the new MDF box.

The Toro MR2 amplifier is capable of supporting up to 320W @ 2-ohms stable, while the Audison AP1D is able to support 540W @ 2-ohms stable. The AP1D is better suited and matched to the APS10D.










AP1D compared with the AP F8.9. Is somewhat smaller.










AP1D compared with the Toro MR2. The MR2 is about 1/2 the size, 25% of the AP1D cost, and yet surprisingly very powerful. 










AP1D installed on the other side of the AP F8.9.










Wiring. I tidy up the wiring.










Connecting everything in the car.










Final installation. The AP1D and SDMI25 are on the other side.










Installing an aftermarket DSP, I have come to find out, is a blessing and a curse... It was quite easy to do a coarse tuning, once I figured out what I wanted. Finding the harman curve was eye opening. Learning to operate REW was a challenge. But then there is the fine-tuning. And this is what really takes time. I had been fine-tuning the darn thing for months now.

Is funny that every time I finish a fine-tune I say "This is it!!, the sound is so great!!". Then I start thinking, "What if I can make it better?"...then the cycle repeats...

Because I have 14 speakers in my car, with 8 amplified channels, I had to use a number of passive crossovers. The Audison AP F8.9 is able to drive these speakers very well, as a matter of fact I’m at a point where I really like the sound in my car.

Nevertheless, I decided to go full active and just acquired the Helix V Twelve. This will involve running some additional wirings (4 of them) to both corners of the dashboard to power the tweeters and both rear doors to power the wide-range speakers. More on that later.

With this, I complete the series on my installation and adventures, so far, with aftermarket audio {with emphasis in “so far”}. I anticipate a few more changes to come, including the installation of the Helix V Twelve, which I will document here as well. Stay Tuned!


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## sobe_death

santirx said:


> PART 8: THE AMPLIFIER
> ...
> 
> The head unit transmit the sound input signal through a MOST Bus (Media Oriented Systems Transport) which is a high-speed multimedia network technology using fiber optic which is optimized by the automotive industry. In my case, it is the MOST25. The fiber connects directly into the amplifier.
> ...
> 
> In the spirit of keeping all OEM connections intact, I did significant research and found a family owned small business in Florida that sells a kit with a male connector that would match the Bose main connector (Radio Stereo Install Wiring Harness Kit for Bose Amplified System fits Porsche | eBay). Although the connector is marketed for earlier Bose amplifiers, I was able to determine that this specific connector have not changed over several years and would fit my Macan’s connector.
> 
> View attachment 283802
> 
> 
> View attachment 283803
> 
> 
> ...


That's good info! The Amplifier plug for the Dynaudio system in the Touareg is the exact same as the Bose connector in the Macan. Family traits, and all.


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## DaveG

sobe_death said:


> That's good info! The Amplifier plug for the Dynaudio system in the Touareg is the exact same as the Bose connector in the Macan. Family traits, and all.


Wonder if it's the same for a 2109 Audi Q7 Bose too? That could make life a lot easier!


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## santirx

DaveG said:


> Wonder if it's the same for a 2109 Audi Q7 Bose too? That could make life a lot easier!


Very likely the same. I did a quick search on Q7 amplifiers, and although I can’t determine which amplifiers were used in 2019 models, all of them showed exactly the same connector.

That is exactly why I wanted to find a solution for this. I didn’t want to start cutting or splicing OEM wiring. This simplified my installation 10-fold.

As a matter of fact, I purchased OEM connectors for not only the amplifier, but all my speakers. You can try Genuine OEM Audi Parts and Accessories | getAudiparts.com. I actually found a lot of Porsche connectors there (not the amplifier connector though, you‘ll find that in the link I provided above).

You can get the part number in the actual wire connector/adapter, then find the counterpart/female version.


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## UberPlant

This made my night. Great fab skills and what a blast to explore so many changes. Car audio is a pursuit. It’s a rising road and esses. It’s the odd failures that lead to knowledge. Is the dance with a elusive beauty.


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## Ge0

santirx said:


> PART 7: THE SURROUNDS
> 
> The surround speakers in the Macan are 70mm, they both are connected to a single amplified channel. One of the speakers have its polarity inverted and they claim is for effect. These are the same crappy speakers as the center channel.
> 
> These speakers are located in the D-Pillar trims, and they are the most difficult to access. Taking out the D-Pillar trim is very tricky. Lost a bunch of clips in the twilight zone, which I had to buy to replace them...
> 
> View attachment 283685
> 
> 
> View attachment 283691
> 
> 
> View attachment 283687
> 
> 
> As the center channel speaker, the surround speaker have a paper cone. This speaker distort significantly. It is the worst speaker within the Macan OEM system.
> 
> View attachment 283688
> 
> 
> I changed these speakers with the Audison Voce AV3.0. I don’t like the Audison Voce series that much... is a matter of taste, but I’m using the surround speakers as a fill, therefore, they do OK. The only reason I have not changed them, is because accessing them is a pain in the rear. Don’t get me wrong, the Voce is way better than the OEM Bose, I mean, light-years better.
> 
> I used an HDPE adapter. Here in the photo, the OEM Bose and the Audison Voce compared.
> 
> View attachment 283689
> 
> 
> View attachment 283690
> 
> 
> I currently use these speakers to provide some sort of effect. Set both HP and LP filter at 300Hz with a maximum delay attainable through the amplifier. I don’t think is achieving the effect I want, but they are not intrusive either.


Well, you have a problem here. Fortunately it's easy to fix. Setting your HP and LP both to 300Hz is essentially going to mute the speaker. Try 300Hz HP @ 24dB/octave and 3KHz --> 4.5KHz 
LP @ either 6dB or 12dB / octave.

Ge0


----------



## santirx

I was trying to achieve your “bouncing echo” effect... I thought that’s how you set it up. Is not completely muted when I play them alone, but they are not loud either. Sound muffled. 

But not being able to achieve the 30ms delay, I guess defeats the purpose. 

I’ll keep playing with that. The output level is low enough as to not interfere that much. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> I was trying to achieve your “bouncing echo” effect... I thought that’s how you set it up. Is not completely muted when I play them alone, but they are not loud either. Sound muffled.
> 
> But not being able to achieve the 30ms delay, I guess defeats the purpose.
> 
> I’ll keep playing with that. The output level is low enough as to not interfere that much.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


First of all you do not want to reach the point of hearing echo. That would be distracting. You'll start to hear echo at 30mS and beyond. But, that depends on the signal you play back. Go read about this experiment I performed recently.









Helix DSP Time Delay vs. Differential Rear Fill


You most definitely can. Under the DCM tab you go to the Virtual Channel Processing section. From there select Virtual Channel Processing and bingo you are now playing with the real stuff, be careful it is hot, LOL! The VCH architecture is great and I really enjoy the tuning and flexibility...




www.diymobileaudio.com





Experiment 1 time delay was set around 12 to 14 mS. Experiment 2 time delay was set around 22 to 24 mS. The important part here is that you must also tinker with the LP crossover to realize the effect.

Ge0


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> PART 8: THE AMPLIFIER (continued);
> 
> As I said, I acquired the Audison AP1D to replace the Toro MR2...
> 
> View attachment 283812
> 
> 
> AP1D compared with the AP F8.9. Is somewhat smaller.
> 
> View attachment 283813
> 
> 
> AP1D compared with the Toro MR2. The MR2 is about 1/2 the size, and very powerful. The marginal gain by installing the Audison AP1D, when compared to the Toro MR2, is not that significant. However, the price is.
> 
> View attachment 283814
> 
> 
> AP1D installed on the other side of the AP F8.9.
> 
> View attachment 283815
> 
> 
> Wiring. I tidy up the wiring.
> 
> View attachment 283816
> 
> 
> Connecting everything in the car.
> 
> View attachment 283817
> 
> 
> Final installation. The AP1D and SDMI25 are on the other side.
> 
> View attachment 283818
> 
> 
> Installing an aftermarket DSP, I have come to find out, is a blessing and a curse... It was quite easy to do a coarse tuning, once I figured out what I wanted. Finding the harman curve was eye opening. Learning to operate REW was a challenge. But then there is the fine-tuning. And this is what really takes time. I had been fine-tuning the darn thing for months now.
> 
> Because I have 14 speakers in my car, with 8 amplified channels, I had to use a number of passive crossovers. The Audison AP F8.9 is able to drive these speakers very well, as a matter of fact I’m at a point where I really like the sound in my car.
> 
> Nevertheless, I decided to go full active and just acquired the Helix V Twelve. This will involve running some additional wirings (4 of them) to both corners of the dashboard to power the tweeters and both rear doors to power the wide-range speakers. More on that later.
> 
> With this, I complete the series on my installation and adventures, so far, with aftermarket audio {with emphasis in “so far”}. I anticipate a few more changes to come, including the installation of the Helix V Twelve, which I will document here as well. Stay Tuned!


Curious. Why did you decide to swap out the Toro sub amp for an Audison? Did you just need more power or did you also want the amps to match 

Ge0


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Curious. Why did you decide to swap out the Toro sub amp for an Audison? Did you just need more power or did you also want the amps to match
> 
> Ge0


@Ge0 It was more about matching the subwoofer. I wired the Audison APS10D in parallel (2-ohms). The subwoofer is rated at 400W RMS with 800W peak. The Toro is able to deliver 320W RMS at 2-ohms while the AP1D is able to deliver 540W RMS at 2-ohms. 

Remember that I bought the Toro to drive the Audison APS8D, which is rated at 250W RMS. When I decided to upgrade to the APS10D, I thought I needed a stronger amplifier.

Granted, I will not be in a position that I would need all that power, ever, I think. And I’m sure the Toro would’ve been plenty, but that was the reason.

As a matter of fact, I wasn’t thinking matching amplifiers when I bought it. I was thinking matching with the subwoofer....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Well, you have a problem here. Fortunately it's easy to fix. Setting your HP and LP both to 300Hz is essentially going to mute the speaker. Try 300Hz HP @ 24dB/octave and 3KHz --> 4.5KHz
> LP @ either 6dB or 12dB / octave.
> 
> Ge0


OK... I changed the HP to 300Hz @ 6dB/Oct and 3500Hz @6dB/Oct using Butterworth crossover filter model. 

You might ask, why did you use Butterworth? Well, the 24 and 12 dB/Oct are too abrupt for the effect I was looking for in the rear surround fill. In the Audison amp, Linkwitz-Riley only goes down to 12dB/Oct. But Butterworth goes down to 6dB/Oct. This achieved better effect. Works surprisingly well with the Audison Voce 3.0. 

Adjusted output level similar to the rear speakers. It brings a different dimension, physically higher in the rear (more to the center). It expands the sound field. 

Very, very decent, as a fill sound. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## santirx

The AP1D sensitivity setting was wrong. After researching a little, I realized my initial error. Changed the setting from High to Medium, and adjusted output level. 

The sub-bass is now cleaner. So clean that I was able to set the subsonic filter at 25Hz (it was previously at 35Hz).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> The AP1D sensitivity setting was wrong. After researching a little, I realized my initial error. Changed the setting from High to Medium, and adjusted output level.
> 
> The sub-bass is now cleaner. So clean that I was able to set the subsonic filter at 25Hz (it was previously at 35Hz).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Subsonic filter on the amp or DSP? Better to use a HP on the DSP with as steep as slope as you can get. Then you can set the HP frequency as close to 20Hz as you can. A subsonic filter on the amp is probably going to be 12dB/octave

Ge0


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> OK... I changed the HP to 300Hz @ 6dB/Oct and 3500Hz @6dB/Oct using Butterworth crossover filter model.
> 
> You might ask, why did you use Butterworth? Well, the 24 and 12 dB/Oct are too abrupt for the effect I was looking for in the rear surround fill. In the Audison amp, Linkwitz-Riley only goes down to 12dB/Oct. But Butterworth goes down to 6dB/Oct. This achieved better effect. Works surprisingly well with the Audison Voce 3.0.
> 
> Adjusted output level similar to the rear speakers. It brings a different dimension, physically higher in the rear (more to the center). It expands the sound field.
> 
> Very, very decent, as a fill sound.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's what I was telling you 🧐


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Subsonic filter on the amp or DSP? Better to use a HP on the DSP with as steep as slope as you can get. Then you can set the HP frequency as close to 20Hz as you can. A subsonic filter on the amp is probably going to be 12dB/octave
> 
> Ge0


DSP. HP Filter. That's what I meant. Set at 25Hz @ 24dB/OCT.


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> That's what I was telling you 🧐


Yes, I know. I tried it because you suggested it. I also tried different configurations and crossover models, and found the one I stated in the post as the best option.


----------



## Ge0

Homework assignment for you. 

1.) Save your current configuration

2.) Try disabling the D pillar speakers and using your rear door speakers as rear fill. Set them up just like we just discussed.

3.) Turn off rear door speakers and just use rear pillar speakers for rear fill. Set them up just as we discussed.

4.) Do A, B, and C comparisons between all three. What do you like the best...

Ge0


----------



## DaveG

How many db’s down are you guys running your rear differential fill? Currently mines -13 dB and think I could use more. How’s this determined?


----------



## Ge0

DaveG said:


> How many db’s down are you guys running your rear differential fill? Currently mines -13 dB and think I could use more. How’s this determined?


Currently at 9dB down from fronts with 3500Hz lowpass and 21mS delay

Ge0


----------



## Ge0

Ge0 said:


> Currently at 9dB down from fronts with 3500Hz lowpass and 21mS delay
> 
> Ge0


Oh Sh!t. I just realized this is not my thread. I didn't mean to answer a question for the OP. Sorry

Ge0


----------



## santirx

DaveG said:


> How many db’s down are you guys running your rear differential fill? Currently mines -13 dB and think I could use more. How’s this determined?


This is a matter of personal taste, in my opinion. I had been experimenting with different output levels for a few months now. I like my rear fill to create a little more of an envelope fill, therefore, I like them to be a little bit more present than others that like pure front stage.

Also, I have a slight different configuration than @Ge0. While @Ge0 only have the surround speakers at the D-pillars (he removed all rear door speakers), I have the surround speakers + rear door speakers.

For the rear door, I had set them from the same level as my front midrange to 11dB down from my midrange. I have found that about 2-3dB lower is my sweet spot. The speakers I have in the rear doors have a lower efficiency than the front, hence, they will naturally sound quieter. They are set currently at 200Hz (12dB/Oct) to 6500Hz (6dB/Oct) using Butterworth for effect.

For surround, they are set at 4dB lower than my front midrange. They are set at 300Hz (6dB/Oct) to 3500Hz (6dB/Oct) using Butterworth, for effect.

My front woofers are set a bit higher than my front midrange/tweeter, for better balance (about 6dB higher).

At the end of the day, experimenting with different levels is what is going to help you determine what YOU LIKE... (learned this from @Ge0...). A lot of people are going to have different opinions and recommendations, but it needs to come down to whatever you like. My setup may sound strange to some, but is what I like (although I have not finished yet)...


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Oh Sh!t. I just realized this is not my thread. I didn't mean to answer a question for the OP. Sorry
> 
> Ge0


@Ge0... C'Mon Man! By this point you should know that this thread is as much yours as it is mine. I'm guilty of doing the same with your macan forum thread...


----------



## santirx

PART 6.2: REAR DOOR REBOOT

I decided to re-do the rear doors by removing the Audison AP6.5 and the AP2. Started with the AP6.5 today. Got a good deal on a set of Dynaudio Esotec MW162.



















Comparing the MW162 and the AP6.5 side by side...



















The MW162 is a very robust mid-bass speaker. Really nice construction.




























Here mounted in the door, reusing the same PVC spacers.




























About the MW162, well defined and clear sound. It is now crossed with an LP of 600Hz using passive crossover at 6dB/Oct. The HP is set at 125Hz, active, 12dB/Oct.

I have to say that the Audison AP6.5 are very good speakers for this role. I did a side by side audio comparison, and the AP6.5 were keeping up very well with the MW162. I was crossing the Audison AP6.5 at 300Hz, and did the comparison at that HP filter frequency though. I’ve been playing with the MW162, changing the HP filter, and they really do a great job at lower HP filter frequency. Very clean sound.

When I go full active, with the Helix V Twelve, my intention is to set the LP filter at around 2000Hz. I intend to change the AP2 with the Audiofrog GB15, and if I don't like it, I'll exchange the GB15 for a GB25 pair. More on that later.


----------



## DaveG

I have my rear fill mounted on the parcel shelf in a sedan bouncing off the rear glass... could be some difference between your suv locations?


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> REAR DOOR REBOOT (PART 6.2):
> 
> I decided to re-do the rear doors by removing the Audison AP6.5 and the AP2. Started with the AP6.5 today. Got a good deal on a set of Dynaudio Esotec MW162.
> 
> View attachment 284930
> 
> 
> View attachment 284931
> 
> 
> Comparing the MW162 and the AP6.5 side by side...
> 
> View attachment 284932
> 
> 
> View attachment 284940
> 
> 
> The MW162 is a very robust mid-bass speaker. Really nice construction.
> 
> View attachment 284933
> 
> 
> View attachment 284934
> 
> 
> View attachment 284936
> 
> 
> Here mounted in the door, reusing the same PVC spacers.
> 
> View attachment 284937
> 
> 
> View attachment 284938
> 
> 
> View attachment 284939
> 
> 
> About the MW162, well defined and clear sound. It is now crossed with an LP of 600Hz using passive crossover at 6dB/Oct. The HP is set at 125Hz, active, 12dB/Oct.
> 
> I have to say that the Audison AP6.5 are very good speakers for this role. I did a side by side audio comparison, and the AP6.5 were keeping up very well with the MW162. I was crossing the Audison AP6.5 at 300Hz, and did the comparison at that HP filter frequency though. I’ve been playing with the MW162, changing the HP filter, and they really do a great job at lower LP filter frequency. Very clean sound.
> 
> When I go full active, with the Helix V Twelve, my intention is to set the LP filter at around 2000Hz. I intend to change the AP2 by the Audiofrog GB15. More on that later.


LOL. I bought the same drivers for my rear doors months ago but have yet to install them. Let me know how it turns out .

Ge0


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> LOL. I bought the same drivers for my rear doors months ago but have yet to install them. Let me know how it turns out .
> 
> Ge0


The bass (sub and mid) sounds extremely clean now. I love it. The combination of fixing the sub amp sensitivity/gain and installing the MW162 really made a significant difference. I really like it.


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> The bass (sub and mid) sounds extremely clean now. I love it. The combination of fixing the sub amp sensitivity/gain and installing the MW162 really made a significant difference. I really like it.


Even more so than adding the MW182's in the front doors?

Ge0


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Even more so than adding the MW182's in the front doors?
> 
> Ge0


No... The MW182 are great. The adjustment I made with the sub amp cleaned the subwoofer frequencies and the MW162 is the frosting on top.

The MW182 are carrying the bulk of the load here. 

Love how everything came together at the lower frequencies. Is the combination of everything.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ocuriel

Fantastic fabricating skills!

Where did you source the PVC material?


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> View attachment 283561
> 
> 
> The sound coming out of these speakers is very decent. Good complement to the better speakers I installed in the front. I don’t think I’ll be changing these, but who knows...


I hear Audiofrog makes a real nice 2" driver 😀. Just say'in...

Ge0


----------



## Ge0

ocuriel said:


> Fantastic fabricating skills!
> 
> Where did you source the PVC material?


I'm not sure where Santirx got his. But, both Home Depot and Lowes carry PVC sheets.

Ge0


----------



## santirx

ocuriel said:


> Fantastic fabricating skills!
> 
> Where did you source the PVC material?


Cellular PVC sheet from Home Depot or Lowes. I bought a 1/2” and 3/4” (24”x48”) panel.

Traced the form from existing speakers, used a jigsaw for a raw cut, then used template tape to attach the panel to the speaker and followed contour with router.

Then used a router adapter that allows me to cut perfect circles (Like a compass, for the router), to cut the inner circle (I might have done this first).

Used bevel bit in the router to soften sharp angles.

The holes were drilled using Forstner bits to certain depth, and then made the through hole. The reason for using the Forstner is first to allow the screw to reach better, and second, I used a stainless steel washer to ensure I would not break the material when tightening. PVC is a softer material, and could easily break if you were to use the screw directly into the material.


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> I hear Audiofrog makes a real nice 2" driver 😀. Just say'in...
> 
> Ge0


I ordered the Audiofrog GB15 tweeter to test with the DynAudio MW162 in the rear doors. I got some Dayton audio passive crossovers with HP and LP filters at 2000Hz for testing. I will add a LP filter for the GB15 at around 14 or 16KHz.

If I don’t like it, I’ll exchange with a GB25 pair (which are actually 2-1/2” drivers ), they are the same price as the GB15. I think that I’ll end up doing this, but wanted to try the GB15.

Lets see.


----------



## DaveG

santirx said:


> I ordered the Audiofrog GB15 tweeter to test with the DynAudio MW162 in the rear doors. I got some Dayton audio passive crossovers with HP and LP filters at 2000Hz for testing. I will add a LP filter for the GB15 at around 14 or 16KHz.
> 
> If I don’t like it, I’ll exchange with a GB25 pair (which are actually 2-1/2” drivers ), they are the same price as the GB15. I think that I’ll end up doing this, but wanted to try the GB15.
> 
> Lets see.


GB25 is a midrange, GB15 is a tweeter. Do you mean maybe the GS25 wideband? I think the GB15 is the more solid pairing. Beautiful build!


----------



## santirx

DaveG said:


> GB25 is a midrange, GB15 is a tweeter. Do you mean maybe the GS25 wideband? I think the GB15 is the more solid pairing. Beautiful build!


Thank you!

I actually mean pairing my rear door woofers with the GB25 (I'm not considering the GS series). I'm not intending on using the full range in the rear doors. Even with the GB15, my intention is to roll off at 12 to 16KHz with a 6dB/Oct slope. I'm using the rear speakers for effect fill. The front tweeters (GB10's) are carrying the bulk of the high frequency load.

With the GB25, I could go as high as 12KHz with no issues. I'm already using a GB25 for center channel and I love it.

I currently have the Audison AP2 wide range at that location, and I'm finding that I can't really go full range with those speakers, as they tend to ring over 7KHz (aluminum cone). I would like to go a bit higher, and I think either the GB15 or the GB25 will do it.

I just need to see which of the two crossover points (Woofer/Tweeter @2000Hz vs Woofer/Midrange @600Hz) I like better.


----------



## santirx

I just got these today...



















I continue to be impressed by the build quality of Audiofrog. Feels very robust, and beautiful. I hope it sounds as good as it looks and feels...










I mean, this is a tweeter that weighs more than 1/2 a pound...










At 2.5 oz, the Audison AV1.1 looks and feels like a toy in comparison... 










More comparisons between the GB15 and the AV1.1



















The GB15’s will go into rear door duty, for effect. I’m going fully active when I receive the Helix V Twelve, but for now, I will install them this week with passive crossover with HP filter of 2000Hz at 12dB/Oct... with a matching passive crossover for the Woofer (DynAudio MW162) with LP filter of 2000Hz at 12dB/Oct... More on that later.


----------



## santirx

PART 9: THE REW (and the Fine Tuning)

REW measurement, after some fine tuning. Although there is a little bump at 220Hz, I'm not doing anything with that until I install the GB15 and probably after I install the Helix V Twelve.

This curve is the average of 5 different measurements I took around head location after final tuning. Compared to Target Curve (from Audiofrog).

Regardless of the curve... I really like the sound, very rich all across the spectrum + powerful and clear bass, and that's all that matters. 











EDIT: Well, I did do something after all... lowered the 220Hz bump a little bit. Not enough to be noticeable by my ears, but graph looks better... for the perfectionists out there...


----------



## santirx

PART 6.3: REAR DOOR REBOOT continued...

Today I installed the AF GB15, substituting the Audison AP2.

Because I need to cross over at 2000Hz, I purchase 4 Dayton Audio crossovers (2 LPF and 2 HPF), to do a temporary installation while I wait for my Helix V Twelve. Previously, the AP2s were crossing at 600Hz.

I reused the mounting adapter, as it already had a 2” hole.










Installation was a breeze. I only needed to fabricate some wires.










Again, temporary installation, hence the black electric tape covering the HPF crossover.










Attached the crossover with double tape.










This is a look at the GB15 installed... It looks really good.










Another look...



















This photo shows the LPF crossover for the 6.5in DynAudio woofer (MW162)...










With this installation, I put an end to the speaker replacement madness... Sound, stage, definition, clarity are where I really want it.

I question if I should really replace the Audison amplifier with the Helix, and if there is going to be a significant or marginal gain by doing so... But, knowing me, I will most likely replace the Audison.

A new REW measurement was taken... Maybe a little bit of additional fine tuning will be required, but it sounds really great to my ear.


----------



## santirx

PART 9.1: FINAL TUNING

After a few hours today, I was able to bring the audio curve of my system very darn close to target......










Most important, the sound is sooooooooo good!

It is unreal.

A really nice feeling of accomplishment, given the fact that just a few months ago I was oblivious to car audio upgrades. I have learned a ton, thanks to forums like this, and great members like @Ge0 who helped me in this forum and the Macan Forum. I think I have graduated into the Do-It-Yourselfer's community...

With this, I finish this series. 

The only remaining step for me is the replacement of the Audison amplifier with the Helix. More on that later, but the objective is that the system sounds as good or better than it sounds now. That's going to be a tall order. Lets see...


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> PART 9.1: FINAL TUNING
> 
> After a few hours today, I was able to bring the audio curve of my system very darn close to target......
> 
> View attachment 285668
> 
> 
> Most important, the sound is sooooooooo good!
> 
> It is unreal.
> 
> A really nice feeling of accomplishment, given the fact that just a few months ago I was oblivious to car audio upgrades. I have learned a ton, thanks to forums like this, and great members like @Ge0 who helped me in this forum and the Macan Forum. I think I have graduated into the Do-It-Yourselfer's community...
> 
> With this, I finish this series.
> 
> The only remaining step for me is the replacement of the Audison amplifier with the Helix. More on that later, but the objective is that the system sounds as good or better than it sounds now. That's going to be a tall order. Lets see...


You still have a bump around 1.3KHz .

Your car has the same null at 50Hz as mine. Strange. Wonder why .

Ge0


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> You still have a bump around 1.3KHz .
> 
> Your car has the same null at 50Hz as mine. Strange. Wonder why .
> 
> Ge0


Ha! You are unforgiving!! 

But I remember you very explicitly saying that a peak <5dB was not perceptible by ear (was it 5dB? That's what I had been using as a standard). 

Well, technically there is a peak to peak amplitude of about 5dB between 1350 and 2000Hz, but the spread is large enough to make it a smooth transition. But the rest is pretty good and that's OK by my standards...

I performed a slight adjustment after I removed the microphone though, to finalize the tune by ear...

Yes, that 50Hz null. Interesting.

No more adjustments until after Helix.


----------



## thechainrule

Congrats on your project. That stealth box in the tailgate is absolutely epic! Santirx, with the amount of detail and support you've been leaving behind here, you've convinced me that the Macan is the next car for me.


----------



## santirx

thechainrule said:


> Santirx, with the amount of detail and support you've been leaving behind here, you've convinced me that the Macan is the next car for me. That stealth box in the tailgate is epic!


Cool! And Thanks! The audio is just a small part of the experience...

It is the visceral experience of owning an SUV that can perform and handle like a nicely equipped sport car. I have been in love with this car ever since I got it in 2014. And I don’t see myself selling or trading it for a long time... and this is coming from a guy that used to trade cars every 2 to 4 years.

When the time come, my next car will be a Porsche Macan GTS.


----------



## Ge0

thechainrule said:


> Santirx, with the amount of detail and support you've been leaving behind here, you've convinced me that the Macan is the next car for me. That stealth box in the tailgate is epic!


If Santirx build log does not convince you 100% then maybe mine will 😀.









The long and involved process of upgrading my 2016 Macan...


Howdy all, I have a new vehicle and I'm back to my old addiction. I feel the need to gut this sucker and refine the stock audio system. Meet my latest project: It looks like there is ample room to place subs and amp(s) in the rear hatch: The hatch floor is recessed almost 2" below...




www.diymobileaudio.com





Or Proenips:









2017 Porsche Macan GTS - SQ install


I recently bought a 2017 Macan GTS with the Bose system. It sounded...."ok," after I adjusted some settings in the PCM (Linear on, bass -1, treble +2). No time alignment though, so no staging/imaging. Only pic I have of the car itself right now is in tow mode, hauling the Audi Club trailer of...




www.diymobileaudio.com





Ge0


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> If Santirx build log does not convince you 100% then maybe mine will 😀.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The long and involved process of upgrading my 2016 Macan...
> 
> 
> Howdy all, I have a new vehicle and I'm back to my old addiction. I feel the need to gut this sucker and refine the stock audio system. Meet my latest project: It looks like there is ample room to place subs and amp(s) in the rear hatch: The hatch floor is recessed almost 2" below...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.diymobileaudio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or Proenips:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2017 Porsche Macan GTS - SQ install
> 
> 
> I recently bought a 2017 Macan GTS with the Bose system. It sounded...."ok," after I adjusted some settings in the PCM (Linear on, bass -1, treble +2). No time alignment though, so no staging/imaging. Only pic I have of the car itself right now is in tow mode, hauling the Audi Club trailer of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.diymobileaudio.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ge0


We have upgrades here for a 2015, 2016 and 2017 Porsche Macan... nice!


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> We have upgrades here for a 2015, 2016 and 2017 Porsche Macan... nice!


We need to get Gra to post his custom amp rack.

Ge0


----------



## dgage

How could you possibly consider the Porsche Macan with that 50 Hz null? LOL!

Nice job on the install and tuning!


----------



## thechainrule

Actually, I am curious if you think a 12" would fit in a stealth box in the spare area as you built? Looking at trying to install a SI Bk mk V.


----------



## santirx

thechainrule said:


> Actually, I am curious if you think a 12" would fit in a stealth box in the spare area as you built? Looking at trying to install a SI Bk mk V.


You may be able to install a 12” if you build a vertical add-on that sticks out of the box downwards towards the hole that the OEM box is. Maybe you can install the sub speaker vertically in that space, like @phroenips did. But you are limited in depth.

Not enough space to accommodate a 12” the way I did it. It maxes out at 10”. 

Also, you need to consider volume requirements for the box. In addition, if you don’t do a modification of raising the floor panel in that area, like @Ge0 did, then you can only fit a shallow subwoofer, like the Audison or JL shallow sub, which are the preferred ones for people that have done this in the Macan. It is pretty tight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## santirx

thechainrule said:


> Actually, I am curious if you think a 12" would fit in a stealth box in the spare area as you built? Looking at trying to install a SI Bk mk V.


These are different boxes that people have made for their Macan, prior to mine, which I used to model, design and build mine (I hope I’m not violating any copyrights...)...





































I also have photos from @phroenips and @Ge0 boxes, but out of respect for them, I will ask that you see those in their respective threads.

I forgot that others have used the 10” Focal as well, as seen in that first photo. I really like that box, looks very nice and classy.

Also, I got my inspiration for painting and adding Porsche stickers to my box from @phroenips. He did that first with his box and it came out really cool as well...


----------



## Ge0

thechainrule said:


> Actually, I am curious if you think a 12" would fit in a stealth box in the spare area as you built? Looking at trying to install a SI Bk mk V.


I was thinking about a 13TW5 mounted in the spare tire in the spring . You'll never fit a 12" under there without raising the floor and shifting the spare tire over (which can be easily done BTW).










And then there is Phroenips masterpiece:









Ge0


----------



## santirx

PART 10: THE HEAD UNIT

In all honesty, this should‘ve been Part 1 in the series, as I did this upgrade first, but too late for that now...

The Porsche Macan 2015 has the 3.1 version of the Porsche Communication Management infotainment system. Porsche Communication Management (PCM) is the central control unit for all infotainment applications and is standard equipment in all Porsche Models. 2017-2018 models featured the PCM 4.0, and 2019 up to today, features the latest generation, with a really nice wide screen.

But back to my version, PCM 3.1 has a lot of nice native functions, and what you come to expect from an OEM infotainment system. The only thing missing... Apple CarPlay (for all Apple fans like me out there). This is a feature I have learned to appreciate, since I found myself using both my PCM3.1 system and my phone at the same time in all my travels when I didn’t have it - I like to use Waze.

I explored different aftermarket solutions, but really wanted something that would look factory and OEM. Then I found exactly what I was looking for, a module that would allow me to preserve my OEM PCM3.1 head unit, while adding Carplay capability to it.









Wireless CarPlay AndroidAuto for Porsche Cayman Cayenne Boxster Panam


Porsche Cayman Cayenne Boxster 911 Panamera PCM3.1 CarPlay Android Auto Wireless




www.realmediashop.de










Porsche Wireless Apple CarPlay Solution – Joyeauto Technology







www.joyeauto.com





Taking the head unit out is not as difficult as taking the trims out. Especially the right trim, needs to come out completely together with two vent diffusers. You can see the normal display of the PCM 3.1 unit.










Removing some of the wire harnesses... Yes, by this time I had turned power off to the unit...










Disassembling the head unit. There is a board that needs to go inside the unit.



















Board inside... the instructions stated that I needed to remove the SiriusXM board to install this one, but I was able to install it over it with stand extensions I bought at Amazon and preserve the SiriusXM board, even when I don’t use SiriusXM. The original ribbon wires that would go to the display connect to this board, and two new ribbon wires go from this board into the display now, allowing for the board to insert Carplay display. This board is the display interface, there is a separate module (box) that actually adds the capability. I don’t have a photo, but you can see that in the links I provided. That box is tucked in behind my glovebox compartment.










This is the display cable that goes to the module. I loosened up the SiriusXM connector to pass the cable through. But there is a harness you connect to that big harness plug on the back that also goes to the module. Then, you connect the OEM harness to that wire (pigtail wire).










Reconnecting everything back and testing...










Final product... There are, like with any aftermarket product, some nuances. For example, I had to deactivate the PCM3.1 native bluetooth capability, as it was interfering badly with the module. I don’t use it anyway.




















This module has a direct USB connection, which I routed to my center console. I normally don’t use it, as it routes the audio through the Auxiliary input through box, and in turn, degrades audio quality. I keep using the USB connection that goes directly into the PCM to ensure the highest quality. I connect to the carplay module wireless via WIFI. That offers me the capability to see CarPlay in the screen, but the audio is coming directly through PCM. There are some minor compromises by doing this. For example, once carplay is connected via wireless, some map/gps applications like Waze and Apple Maps, wants to route their audio through AUX connection, not through PCM, hence there is no audio from those applications when set to PCM. Google Maps however, have the capability to choose where do I send the audio (via AUX or PCM), and this works well.

To me, this is the best compromise, as I’m not willing to degrade Music audio quality. I normally use my car to commute, and actually prefer a silent gps application. When I go somewhere else, I normally use Google Maps and have Waze running in the background.


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> PART 10: THE HEAD UNIT
> 
> In all honesty, this should‘ve been Part 1 in the series, as I did this upgrade first, but too late for that now...
> 
> The Porsche Macan 2015 has the 3.1 version of the Porsche Communication Management infotainment system. Porsche Communication Management (PCM) is the central control unit for all infotainment applications and is standard equipment in all Porsche Models. 2016-2018 models featured the PCM 4.0, and 2019 up to today, features the latest generation, with a really nice wide screen.
> 
> But back to my version, PCM 3.1 has a lot of nice native functions, and what you come to expect from an OEM infotainment system. The only thing missing... Apple CarPlay (for all Apple fans like me out there). This is a feature I have learned to appreciate, since I found myself using both my PCM3.1 system and my phone at the same time in all my travels when I didn’t have it - I like to use Waze.
> 
> I explored different aftermarket solutions, but really wanted something that would look factory and OEM. Then I found exactly what I was looking for, a module that would allow me to preserve my OEM PCM3.1 head unit, while adding Carplay capability to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Porsche Cayman Cayenne Boxster 911 Panamera PCM3.1 CarPlay Android Au
> 
> 
> Porsche Cayman Cayenne Boxster 911 Panamera PCM3.1 CarPlay Android Auto Wireless
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.realmediashop.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Porsche Wireless Apple CarPlay Solution – Joyeauto Technology
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.joyeauto.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taking the head unit out is not as difficult as taking the trims out. Especially the right trim, needs to come out completely together with two vent diffusers. You can see the normal display of the PCM 3.1 unit.
> 
> View attachment 286318
> 
> 
> Removing some of the wire harnesses... Yes, by this time I had turned power off to the unit...
> 
> View attachment 286319
> 
> 
> Disassembling the head unit. There is a board that needs to go inside the unit.
> 
> View attachment 286320
> 
> 
> View attachment 286321
> 
> 
> Board inside... the instructions stated that I needed to remove the SiriusXM board to install this one, but I was able to install it over it with stand extensions I bought at Amazon and preserve the SiriusXM board, even when I don’t use SiriusXM. The original ribbon wires that would go to the display connect to this board, and two new ribbon wires go from this board into the display now, allowing for the board to insert Carplay display. This board is the display interface, there is a separate module (box) that actually adds the capability. I don’t have a photo, but you can see that in the links I provided. That box is tucked in behind my glovebox compartment.
> 
> View attachment 286327
> 
> 
> This is the display cable that goes to the module. I loosened up the SiriusXM connector to pass the cable through. But there is a harness you connect to that big harness plug on the back that also goes to the module. Then, you connect the OEM harness to that wire (pigtail wire).
> 
> View attachment 286332
> 
> 
> Reconnecting everything back and testing...
> 
> View attachment 286322
> 
> 
> Final product...  There are, like with any aftermarket product, some nuances. For example, I had to deactivate the PCM3.1 native bluetooth capability, as it was interfering badly with the module. I don’t use it anyway.
> 
> View attachment 286324
> 
> 
> View attachment 286325
> 
> 
> 
> This module has a direct USB connection, which I routed to my center console. I normally don’t use it, as it routes the audio through the Auxiliary input through box, and in turn, degrades audio quality. I keep using the USB connection that goes directly into the PCM to ensure the highest quality. I connect to the carplay module wireless via WIFI. That offers me the capability to see CarPlay in the screen, but the audio is coming directly through PCM. There are some minor compromises by doing this. For example, once carplay is connected via wireless, some map/gps applications like Waze and Apple Maps, wants to route their audio through AUX connection, not through PCM, hence there is no audio from those applications when set to PCM. Google Maps however, have the capability to choose where do I send the audio (via AUX or PCM), and this works well.
> 
> To me, this is the best compromise, as I’m not willing to degrade Music audio quality. I normally use my car to commute, and actually prefer a silent gps application. When I go somewhere else, I normally use Google Maps and have Waze running in the background.
> 
> View attachment 286323


Minor correction. My 2016 uses PCM 3.1. PCM 4.0 was introduced in 2017.

In your last photo you show a USB port that you have your phone charger plugged into. I'm assuming you added this?

Ge0


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Minor correction. My 2016 uses PCM 3.1. PCM 4.0 was introduced in 2017.
> 
> In your last photo you show a USB port that you have your phone charger plugged into. I'm assuming you added this?
> 
> Ge0


Yes, you are right. corrected.

That USB port was added and is part of the Apple CarPlay module. I'm not using it right now.


----------



## thechainrule

Ge0 said:


> I was thinking about a 13TW5 mounted in the spare tire in the spring . You'll never fit a 12" under there without raising the floor and shifting the spare tire over (which can be easily done BTW).
> 
> Ge0



I'll be test-driving a 2016 Macan (with a Bose sound system ) in the afternoon tomorrow, I will definitely be pulling up the spare tire wall and taking some pictures to see how. Thanks for the help!


----------



## Ge0

thechainrule said:


> I'll be test-driving a 2016 Macan (with a Bose sound system ) in the afternoon tomorrow, I will definitely be pulling up the spare tire wall and taking some pictures to see how. Thanks for the help!


No need to take photos. My 2016 Macan S is laid out all over this forum. If you want to know what things look like then just take a peek at my build thread.

Ge0


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Hello santrix, great thread and I really respect all the info you are providing. The Macan has always been the first thing out of my mouth whenever there is a discussion of "What would you buy if you won the lottery?" (lol)

If you don't mind I have a couple of questions, maybe they were addressed here, but I did not quite see them:
1) At one point you had the Audison APF8.9 Amp, why did you move away from it? 
2) In one of the pics, you show a Audion Subwoofer, what size is that and are you still running that or why did you move away from it?

_(I was looking at those two Audison components for my own SUV build)_

BIG Thanks!


----------



## santirx

MythosDreamLab said:


> Hello santrix, great thread and I really respect all the info you are providing. The Macan has always been the first thing out of my mouth whenever there is a discussion of "What would you buy if you won the lottery?" (lol)
> 
> If you don't mind I have a couple of questions, maybe they were addressed here, but I did not quite see them:
> 1) At one point you had the Audison APF8.9 Amp, why did you move away from it?
> 2) In one of the pics, you show a Audion Subwoofer, what size is that and are you still running that or why did you move away from it?
> 
> _(I was looking at those two Audison components for my own SUV build)_
> 
> BIG Thanks!


Hi @MythosDreamLab... thanks, and great questions.



> 1) At one point you had the Audison APF8.9 Amp, why did you move away from it?


Just to clarify where I currently stand, I still have the Audison AP F8.9 installed in my Macan. It is a great amplifier and I have no complaints. I like the simplicity of the interface. I, however, decided to buy the Helix V Twelve (which is still in transit) mainly because it has 12 amplified channels and 2 pre-amp channels vs the Audison which has 8 amplified channels and 1 pre-amp. In my Macan, I have 14 speakers, and the Helix V Twelve will allow me to go full active, hence eliminating the need of passive crossovers (I have 8 passive crossovers currently installed in my car). That was the main reason.

Also, the Helix have a series of digital processors that the Audison don’t have. But that was not the main driver to get the Helix.

Even now, my system sounds so good that I’m pondering if I should really change the Audison and start the tuning process all over again. I’ll make that decision later, but the Audison is a great amplifier and is making my system sound fantastic (even with all the passive crossovers I have).

If you don’t have the need or desire to have 12.2 channels, the Audison at 8.9 is a great solution. You may also want consider the Helix V Eight, that also have 8.9 channels.



> 2) In one of the pics, you show a Audion Subwoofer, what size is that and are you still running that or why did you move away from it?


I originally installed the Audison APS8D (8”) in the original OEM box. But then I built a box and installed the Audison APS10D (10”), which I still have there. No plans on moving away from it, although I had been curious about the JL 10-TW3-D4. For now, I’m staying with the Audison.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## MythosDreamLab

@ santrix, awesome thanks for the quick and in-depth update, I don't want to hijack your thread, but...

I was originally planning on the Helix V Eight and the Helix M One, however two places recommended building a custom enclosure into a recessed area of my Honda Macan-equivalent, err, Passport (lol) and using the Audison 8" Sub, which I can power by bridging two channels of the APF 8.9 (to get 260w with 300w peaks) and with four channels powering my front Focals actively and two channels powering my rear Focals passively (for fill), so I'm extremely happy with your reviews/comments on these and now feel quite comfortable with my upcoming build (Jan 7-8-9)! 

_(like you I was wanting to go full active, but my Installer/Tuner insists that the rear Focal (2-way Components) run "passive" will be fine, if that helps with your thoughts on the Helix swap out)..._

Happy Holidayz!


----------



## santirx

MythosDreamLab said:


> @ santrix, awesome thanks for the quick and in-depth update, I don't want to hijack your thread, but...
> 
> I was originally planning on the Helix V Eight and the Helix M One, however two places recommended building a custom enclosure into a recessed area of my Honda Macan-equivalent, err, Passport (lol) and using the Audison 8" Sub, which I can power by bridging two channels of the APF 8.9 (to get 260w with 300w peaks) and with four channels powering my front Focals actively and two channels powering my rear Focals passively (for fill), so I'm extremely happy with your reviews/comments on these and now feel quite comfortable with my upcoming build (Jan 7-8-9)!
> 
> _(like you I was wanting to go full active, but my Installer/Tuner insists that the rear Focal (2-way Components) run "passive" will be fine, if that helps with your thoughts on the Helix swap out)..._
> 
> Happy Holidayz!


The issue I have is that if I go full active in the front, that only leave me 1 channel for the rear fill, which is not ideal.

I have 3-way times 2 in the front doors and dash (which will consume 6 channels) plus a center channel, and that would be 7.

I’m currently running both front midrange and tweeters with passive crossovers. And also both rear 2-way, so that I can use the 8 channels effectively. Also, using a single channel to power surround. 

I have no issues with the passive crossover in the rear, but feel I need to go full active in the front to get the best sound. This is why I wanted to go with the Helix Twelve. Just not enough channels in the Audison.

More to come on this.

As far as your setup, you’ll have no issues. As I said, the Audison amplifiers are very good.


----------



## Fernmac

wao! This is formidable project, way way beyond my skills and wallet. I know this sounds ridiculous compared to this magnificent set-up, but I would just love to improve a little my Bose system, spending as little money as possible, any suggestion?
thanks


----------



## santirx

Fernmac said:


> wao! This is formidable project, way way beyond my skills and wallet. I know this sounds ridiculous compared to this magnificent set-up, but I would just love to improve a little my Bose system, spending as little money as possible, any suggestion?
> thanks


That's how I started... a simple improvement that turned into an all-out upgrade... 

You can always change some of your speakers. Bose speakers are not known for quality. 

In the Macan, the center channel (and D-Pillar surround), the tweeters and the subwoofer are the worst ones. The remaining speakers are decent. If you have a Macan, you can start with those. But if you have another car, then it would be good that you identify which are the worst speakers. Usually, Bose 3" midrange and 3/4" tweeters are bad, along with the subwoofer.

I started changing my center channel and 4 tweeters for the OEM Burmester version of the speakers. I didn't have to fabricate adapters, as they would fit into the OEM location, but the wire connector adapter was slightly different and required some modifications.

I also upgraded the subwoofer.

If I remember correctly, that initial upgrade was about $250 for the center and 4 tweeters, and about $160 for the subwoofer.

That helped improve the sound, with the Bose amplifier.


----------



## Fernmac

santirx said:


> That's how I started... a simple improvement that turned into an all-out upgrade...
> 
> You can always change some of your speakers. Bose speakers are not known for quality.
> 
> In the Macan, the center channel (and D-Pillar surround), the tweeters and the subwoofer are the worst ones. The remaining speakers are decent. If you have a Macan, you can start with those. But if you have another car, then it would be good that you identify which are the worst speakers. Usually, Bose 3" midrange and 3/4" tweeters are bad, along with the subwoofer.
> 
> I started changing my center channel and 4 tweeters for the OEM Burmester version of the speakers. I didn't have to fabricate adapters, as they would fit into the OEM location, but the wire connector adapter was slightly different and required some modifications.
> 
> I also upgraded the subwoofer.
> 
> If I remember correctly, that initial upgrade was about $250 for the center and 4 tweeters, and about $160 for the subwoofer.
> 
> That helped improve the sound, with the Bose amplifier.


Thank you for answering.
It is also a Macan with Bose. So you say you just bought the center, 4 tweeters and the sub from oem Burmester and just replaced with the Bose and the sound quality improved significantly?


----------



## santirx

Fernmac said:


> Thank you for answering.
> It is also a Macan with Bose. So you say you just bought the center, 4 tweeters and the sub from oem Burmester and just replaced with the Bose and the sound quality improved significantly?


I bought 4 Burmester Tweeters and the Burmester Center... and swapped the Bose ones. Even though you won't have to make any physical adapters to mount them, is not without work or adaptation. You need to adapt the wires...

TWEETERS: See Post # 4, you'll see that the tweeters will fit in OEM location. You just need to shave the connector plastic key, because it won't fit as is.

CENTER: See Post # 6, you'll see that the center will fit the OEM location. The connector is very different. If you are in the Macan Forum, see following link - POST # 286 (if you are not in the Macan Forum, I highly recommend it): Macan BOSE to BURMESTER Speaker Swap

For the center, I had to remove the connector from the Bose speaker (it slides out, although you will have to remove the wires coming from the speaker). I used that connector to fabricate wire.

SUBWOOFER: The answer here is No. I didn't buy the Burmester version. Too expensive. I bought a Rockford Fosgate (See Post # 1), and installed it in the OEM Box.


All this may be more work than you may want to take on. And as I'm thinking about this, there is a company that offers solutions for Porsche Macan. You can buy a full package that contains the speaker adapter, the speaker and wire adapter for these speakers. 

Go to www.rennspec.com and you'll find full solutions there, ready to install, without much complication.

I have purchase some of my adapters from them.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Fernmac

santirx said:


> I bought 4 Burmester Tweeters and the Burmester Center... and swapped the Bose ones. Even though you won't have to make any physical adapters to mount them, is not without work or adaptation. You need to adapt the wires...
> 
> TWEETERS: See Post # 4, you'll see that the tweeters will fit in OEM location. You just need to shave the connector plastic key, because it won't fit as is.
> 
> CENTER: See Post # 6, you'll see that the center will fit the OEM location. The connector is very different. If you are in the Macan Forum, see following link - POST # 286 (if you are not in the Macan Forum, I highly recommend it): Macan BOSE to BURMESTER Speaker Swap
> 
> For the center, I had to remove the connector from the Bose speaker (it slides out, although you will have to remove the wires coming from the speaker). I used that connector to fabricate wire.
> 
> SUBWOOFER: The answer here is No. I didn't buy the Burmester version. Too expensive. I bought a Rockford Fosgate (See Post # 1), and installed it in the OEM Box.
> 
> 
> All this may be more work than you may want to take on. And as I'm thinking about this, there is a company that offers solutions for Porsche Macan. You can buy a full package that contains the speaker adapter, the speaker and wire adapter for these speakers.
> 
> Go to www.rennspec.com and you'll find full solutions there, ready to install, without much complication.
> 
> I have purchase some of my adapters from them.
> 
> Hope this helps.


This is VERY helpful 
I will check this out tomorrow 
Thank you so much


----------



## santirx

Going back to the subwoofer... I was watching one of the episodes of the Car Audio Fabrication guy, the one where I learned about the DuraTex product for exterior application in the subwoofer box. 






There, he also talked very briefly about another product from the same company called Acoust-X, which is a type of plaster you apply to the interior of the speaker boxes and is supposed to help reduce sound reflection, echo, vibration and distortion. 

Since the video is mostly focused on DuraTex, he doesn’t go into any details with this Acoust-X product. Hence, I asked him in the comments... (I’m “Fastpitch Net” in YouTube... more dedicated to my daughter’s softball videos)...












The Car Audio Fabrication guy said that he had tried the product in a box, and it sealed it very well... he said that it worked good.

I decided to buy a gallon of the thing...












... and decided to apply it in my box. Followed instructions, leaving irregular painted surfaces... It looks more like a plaster than paint.






















I let it dry for about 24 hours... 

I have to agree with the Car Audio Fabrication guy... it works well... actually, it works very well. Bass sound seems to be more pure, less noticeable vibration, etc... Whatever this is, it does a good job, it sounds very good. 

I’ll have to check with REW later.


----------



## THX0849

I imagine this would be beneficial in a fiberglass enclosure even moreso than a wood one. If it's not too expensive might give it a shot when i remove my enclosure to install threaded inserts for the sub. Thank you!

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## sobe_death

How much of the gallon did you end up using in your box?


----------



## santirx

THX0849 said:


> I imagine this would be beneficial in a fiberglass enclosure even moreso than a wood one. If it's not too expensive might give it a shot when i remove my enclosure to install threaded inserts for the sub. Thank you!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


I’m not sure about fiberglass... you might want to ask about that. But, it does say that it can be applied not only in speaker cabinets, but also other surfaces, including auto body panels. I’m thinking about applying some of this thing in the inner part of my front doors to help reduce vibration...

I bought it at Parts Express... $36 for a gallon... not too bad.









Home


Acry-Tech Acoust-X 1 Gallon Absorption Coating Paintable Damping MaterialAcoust-X sound absorbing coating for speaker cabinet interiors reduces bounce-back, resonance, and unwanted vibrations. Acry-Tech formulated water-soluble Acoust-X with hollow ceramic microspheres, sound absorbing fillers...




www.parts-express.com


----------



## santirx

sobe_death said:


> How much of the gallon did you end up using in your box?


I applied two coats... the second one was a very generous coat... I ended up using about 1/4 of a gallon.


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> Going back to the subwoofer... I was watching one of the episodes of the Car Audio Fabrication guy, the one where I learned about the DuraTex product for exterior application in the subwoofer box.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There, he also talked very briefly about another product from the same company called Acoust-X, which is a type of plaster you apply to the interior of the speaker boxes and is supposed to help reduce sound reflection, echo, vibration and distortion.
> 
> Since the video is mostly focused on DuraTex, he doesn’t go into any details with this Acoust-X product. Hence, I asked him in the comments... (I’m “Fastpitch Net” in YouTube... more dedicated to my daughter’s softball videos)...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Car Audio Fabrication guy said that he had tried the product in a box, and it sealed it very well... he said that it worked good.
> 
> I decided to buy a gallon of the thing...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... and decided to apply it in my box. Followed instructions, leaving irregular painted surfaces... It looks more like a plaster than paint.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I let it dry for about 24 hours...
> 
> I have to agree with the Car Audio Fabrication guy... it works well... actually, it works very well. Bass sound seems to be more pure, less noticeable vibration, etc... Whatever this is, it does a good job, it sounds very good.
> 
> I’ll have to check with REW later.


Looks kind of goopy / messy. How did you get it all the way down in there?

Ge0


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Looks kind of goopy / messy. How did you get it all the way down in there?
> 
> Ge0


Of course, it would had been better to apply this while the box was open, but... used a roller with a small handle, long enough to reach farther locations... then removed the small handle to apply near the opening.

It was a very small roll as well... about 2” long.

The consistency is more similar to a watered-down sheetrock plaster. But when dried, it feels hard and a little bit rubbery to the touch. I prepared a sample on this, I’ll let it dry, just to confirm consistency and hardness.


----------



## santirx

PART 11: The installation of the HELIX V TWELVE (PRE-WORK)

As you know, if you had read this thread, I acquired the Helix V Twelve with the intention of going full active. The Helix is still on its way, but I figured that while we have some tolerable weather here in New England, I’ll go ahead and get started with some pre-work.

The 2015 Porsche Macan with Bose system have 8 amplified channels and 1 pre-amplified channel for 13 speakers + 1 subwoofer. Meaning that there are 4 passive crossovers. These passive crossovers are fed through a single wire coming from amplifier powering the front midranges/tweeters and rear door woofers/tweeters.

Because there is only a single wire going to each location, I need to add 4 new wires to each location. Therefore, there is a lot of pre-work to do, before I can begin to install the Helix.

I started by doing an exploratory inspection of the rear door, to see how I can feed the wire. There is only a single conduit going to the door to the interior... this is the photo of the conduit from door... it is sealed, so I would have to cut a little hole in the rubber... no big deal.












this photo shows where the conduit connects into the car...











Like many modern cars, this is how that conduit connects to the interior. Is not a pass-through hole for the wires, is a connector... no way to pass wires from the outside, unless it goes through this connector.










Is obvious that this is not an easy job. Is going to require removal of this plug and passing the wires through it.

I found some potentially useful information here... from the Car Audio Fabrication guy.






Then, from the Porsche Macan repair manual, this is how you disconnect the Macan door plug:











Removed it on mine, to test difficulty, and you can pry that top pin with a screw driver (carefully)... the action of pulling the pin up will also disconnect/de-attach the plug.




















This should make it easier to pass two wires... More on the next post...


----------



## santirx

PART 11.1: Adding New Wires - Left Side

REAR DOOR

Removed the plug...











This shows the other side...











For this modification, you’ll have to remove the B-Pillar trim. Starting from the top (where the seat belt is). There are two plastic clips at the bottom (better if you push plastic lever from the side and then pull and push down). Remove the front sill partially, then there is a clip at the bottom of the rear door side that you‘ll have to lift. Then pull the bottom trim (there are 5 clips in that trim). Then, you get access to the plug on the other side....

I selected a drill bit that was very close to the diameter of the wires. Better to use softer wire, easier to maneuver around sharp elbows.











Used same drill bit for the other side of the plug (female plug)... I put it upside down to see the drill, as I didn’t want to damage other wires. Go slowly until you see the tip of the drill bit, then pull back.











Inserted wires...











Running wires through the plug and down the rubber conduit...











This rubber conduit is sealed at the bottom... I made a small perforation and inserted a large tie-wrap, which I used as a wire puller (Just as the video recommended). I resealed the perforation around the wires with black silicone.

That plug that goes in the door is removed from the inside (you’ll have to take the woofer out), there are two clips at the bottom that you need to press (can be done by hand), them push outwards... it will come out easily... To reinstall, start attaching the top and then swivel until you hear the click.











You can now see the wire on both sides...











Everything plugged... Wire ready for actual install (Inside the speaker hole). I’ll use this wire for the woofer, as it is just convenient. On the other side, you can see the wire running through the floor. There are two of them, the other I already ran to the tweeter location through the floor. Since I had to lift the front door sill, it was an easy run.











Continued in next post...


----------



## santirx

PART 11.1: Adding New Wires - Left Side (Continued)....

FRONT TWEETER WIRE

This is the wire running inside the front sill, going to the front tweeter.










Left wire ready for tweeter... decided to go through floor, rather than through the roof, ensuring no interference with top air bags... It was not as easy as going through the roof, but not that difficult either.












Both wires in the back...












Wires tucked in, ready for the Helix V Twelve installation...












The other side will be done at a later point, when the weather cooperates. The weather had been cooperating lately... It was very good today, at least inside the garage


----------



## preston

Have you made a bondo/fiberglass resin milkshake ? I'm wondering if the acoust-x compares. At the price you quoted it seems amost as cheap as using bondo/fiberglassa and a lot less work to get the mix right. Am I right in that you didn't mix it, you just scoop it out of the bucket and then it dries ? Milkshake generally dries very hard, does this seem maybe a bit more flexible ? I'm wondering if it is more absorbent compared to milkshake which I would consider more of a way go really stiffen and reduce resonances.


----------



## santirx

preston said:


> Have you made a bondo/fiberglass resin milkshake ? I'm wondering if the acoust-x compares. At the price you quoted it seems amost as cheap as using bondo/fiberglassa and a lot less work to get the mix right. Am I right in that you didn't mix it, you just scoop it out of the bucket and then it dries ? Milkshake generally dries very hard, does this seem maybe a bit more flexible ? I'm wondering if it is more absorbent compared to milkshake which I would consider more of a way go really stiffen and reduce resonances.



No, I have not made bondo/fiberglass resin milkshake, so I would not know how to compare it to the Acoust-X. 

Acoust-X is applied as is, right from the bucket. Just get the roll with as much of this stuff you can, and apply it. It hardens significantly upon drying. I need to reconfirm consistency and harness, as I didn’t test as much before reinstalling the subwoofer.

I prepared a sample, and I’ll wait until it dries. I’ll offer further opinion on harness and consistency tomorrow.

You can see the product Data Sheet in the following link: https://www.acrytech.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Acoust-X-Data-Sheet-1.pdf


----------



## MythosDreamLab

So is the Helix 12 replacing you APF 8.9?


----------



## santirx

MythosDreamLab said:


> So is the Helix 12 replacing you APF 8.9?


That is correct... The AP F8.9 is a fantastic amplifier. I really like it. But I like to go full active.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## MythosDreamLab

santirx said:


> That is correct... The AP F8.9 is a fantastic amplifier. I really like it. But I like to go full active.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Well you could have go another and had 16 Channels (4 more than the 12)....!

Unlike the Helix, you can bridge 2 channels together, so you could have had 12 channels @ 85wpc and bridge the last 4 channels together into 2 channels at 260w each,,, but I'm sure you knew that... Cheers!


----------



## Ge0

preston said:


> Have you made a bondo/fiberglass resin milkshake ? I'm wondering if the acoust-x compares. At the price you quoted it seems amost as cheap as using bondo/fiberglassa and a lot less work to get the mix right. Am I right in that you didn't mix it, you just scoop it out of the bucket and then it dries ? Milkshake generally dries very hard, does this seem maybe a bit more flexible ? I'm wondering if it is more absorbent compared to milkshake which I would consider more of a way go really stiffen and reduce resonances.


The materials are used for different things. The Acoust-X is used for sound deadening. Milkshakes are used to make corners and odd form shapes more rigid.

Ge0


----------



## Ge0

MythosDreamLab said:


> Well you could have go another and had 16 Channels (4 more than the 12)....!
> 
> Unlike the Helix, you can bridge 2 channels together, so you could have had 12 channels @ 85wpc and bridge the last 4 channels together into 2 channels at 260w each,,, but I'm sure you knew that... Cheers!


I'm afriad I talked him into the Helix route A more powerful DSP.

Ge0


----------



## santirx

MythosDreamLab said:


> Well you could have go another and had 16 Channels (4 more than the 12)....!
> 
> Unlike the Helix, you can bridge 2 channels together, so you could have had 12 channels @ 85wpc and bridge the last 4 channels together into 2 channels at 260w each,,, but I'm sure you knew that... Cheers!


Adding a second amplifier in a MOST fiber optic ring becomes very expensive. To add an amplifier I would need to extend the MOST fiber to add a plug and buy a second MOST interface to add the input. I considered adding an AP4, which would add 4 additional channels, but didn’t make sense financially. 

Once I install the Helix V Twelve, I’ll be selling the AP F8.9 and hopefully the net cost for my project will only see a nominal increase... rather than the larger expense of acquiring another AP F8.9 and another Helix SDMI25 plus whatever additional hardware I need to extend the MOST fiber.

Unless there is a different way to add the input to that second amplifier that I don’t know about? I didn’t find any other alternative.

At this point is moot, because I already bought the V Twelve, but it is a good idea if there is a good way to add one.


----------



## santirx

PART 11.2: Adding Wires - Right Side

Completed the right side of the car wiring today... This time, it took about 1.5 hours, instead of the 3 hours that took for the left side installation (learning curve)...

Wires through the plug, shown on outside...










Plug shown from inside...










Through the female plug...










Pulling wire as reinstalling the plug... ensuring no slack.










On the other side of the conduit that attaches to the door... This one wasn’t sealed. I guess the other one was only sealed by the tape, which they wrapped around the rubber.










Wire ready inside the door...










Routing the wire... you can see at the bottom the wire that runs all the way to the front tweeter... then joins the rear door wire.










I got this wire puller, which is a bit rigid and comes in 6 parts... Very convenient for some of the wire pulling.










This is me... pulling the wire from the trunk.










Wire ready in the trunk compartment. I still need to cross the wire around the trunk to the other side where the amplifier is mounted, but I figure I’ll do that later when I install the Helix. For now, all pre-work is done.


----------



## santirx

preston said:


> Have you made a bondo/fiberglass resin milkshake ? I'm wondering if the acoust-x compares. At the price you quoted it seems amost as cheap as using bondo/fiberglassa and a lot less work to get the mix right. Am I right in that you didn't mix it, you just scoop it out of the bucket and then it dries ? Milkshake generally dries very hard, does this seem maybe a bit more flexible ? I'm wondering if it is more absorbent compared to milkshake which I would consider more of a way go really stiffen and reduce resonances.


OK... Coming back to your question. As I said yesterday, I prepared a sample of Acoust-X and let it dry for about 15 hours.

This is how it dries... it has a grainy feeling to it, and is also a bit rubbery.










I was able to make some indentations with my nail...












I’ll let it dry some more, a few days, and report back... to see if there is additional hardening.

However, the label does specify that elongation is about 200%, which means you can stretch this thing to twice it size before its breaking point... so, I don’t expect this to harden any more. I think it will retain its rubbery consistency.


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> PART 11.2: Adding Wires - Right Side
> 
> Completed the right side of the car wiring today... This time, it took about 1.5 hours, instead of the 3 hours that took for the left side installation (learning curve)...
> 
> Wires through the plug, shown on outside...
> 
> View attachment 288051
> 
> 
> Plug shown from inside...
> 
> View attachment 288052
> 
> 
> Through the female plug...
> 
> View attachment 288053
> 
> 
> Pulling wire as reinstalling the plug... ensuring no slack.
> 
> View attachment 288054
> 
> 
> On the other side of the conduit that attaches to the door... This one wasn’t sealed. I guess the other one was only sealed by the tape, which they wrapped around the rubber.
> 
> View attachment 288055
> 
> 
> Wire ready inside the door...
> 
> View attachment 288056
> 
> 
> Routing the wire... you can see at the bottom the wire that runs all the way to the front tweeter... then joins the rear door wire.
> 
> View attachment 288057
> 
> 
> I got this wire puller, which is a bit rigid and comes in 6 parts... Very convenient for some of the wire pulling.
> 
> View attachment 288058
> 
> 
> This is me... pulling the wire from the trunk.
> 
> View attachment 288059
> 
> 
> Wire ready in the trunk compartment. I still need to cross the wire around the trunk to the other side where the amplifier is mounted, but I figure I’ll do that later when I install the Helix. For now, all pre-work is done.
> 
> View attachment 288060


Did you have to drill holes in the connector to get the wire to pull through? Or, was the wire gage small enough to pass through the larger connector holes without modification?

Ge0


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Did you have to drill holes in the connector to get the wire to pull through? Or, was the wire gage small enough to pass through the larger connector holes without modification?
> 
> Ge0


I had to drill... same as for the left side.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> I had to drill... same as for the left side.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't know how but I missed you photos holding the drill. Geesh... LOL!

Did you try to locate the pins that would have snapped into the connectors? Usually you are pretty good at hunting this stuff down.

Ge0


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> I don't know how but I missed you photos holding the drill. Geesh... LOL!
> 
> Did you try to locate the pins that would have snapped into the connectors? Usually you are pretty good at hunting this stuff down.
> 
> Ge0


That was my original thought, but I was concerned about the 90 degree angled female plug, and how to pin that. After I saw the Car Audio Fabrication guy video, I decided to follow his approach. 

My original objective of preserving OEM plugs is not altered by this, as these specific pins in this plug are not used for anything. When I sell or trade my Macan, I will leave that wire in place.


----------



## santirx

SUBWOOFER REBOOT?

I had been working with the subwoofer a lot during the past month or so, making it sound deep but smooth. As you may recall, I have a custom made box with an Audison APS-10D. 

With the application of Acoust-X inside the box, plus some additional fine-tuning, it is now in great shape. 










Because I had some extra funds, and some gift cards around I ordered this beauty... 










This is the Rockford Fosgate T1S2-10, which should pair well with the Audison AP1D at 500W RMS. I really wanted to get this to compare with the Audison APS-10D.

I previously thought about ordering the JL 10TW3-D4, but realized that I would’ve had to enlarge the box hole. Since the Audison and JL have comparable specs, I decided to go for the RF.




















Volume-wise for the box, is not optimal but is well within range... Looking forward to test this tomorrow, but there is a catch... Since I made a rabbet notch for the Audison sub, I need to make the diameter about 0.20” bigger, however, I don’t have to make the hole any bigger. I was expecting this anyway, but I had a slim hope that I had made the rabbet big enough for the RF sub to fit, but that was not the case.











Another aspect to consider is height. The height of the RF T1S2-10, without the grille, is comparable to the Audison APS-10D with the grille. Therefore, I’m not expecting any issues with the sub colliding with the floor panel.

With the grille, this subwoofer will not fit unless I make the rabbet at least 1/2” deeper, or raise the floor panel 1/2”. I don’t want to modify the box (other than the obvious rabbet diameter enlargement).... hence, I will either install without the grille, or raise the floor. I’m inclined towards not installing the grille.











This RF T1S2-10 has very good reviews and is regarded as one of the best shallow subs out there. I’ll provide more information on my comparison, hopefully tomorrow. It does look impressive. I hope is sounds as good.


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> SUBWOOFER REBOOT?
> 
> I had been working with the subwoofer a lot during the past month or so, making it sound deep but smooth. As you may recall, I have a custom made box with an Audison APS-10D.
> 
> With the application of Acoust-X inside the box, plus some additional fine-tuning, it is now in great shape.
> 
> View attachment 289192
> 
> 
> Because I had some extra funds, and some gift cards around I ordered this beauty...
> 
> View attachment 289193
> 
> 
> This is the Rockford Fosgate T1S2-10, which should pair well with the Audison AP1D at 500W RMS. I really wanted to get this to compare with the Audison APS-10D.
> 
> I previously thought about ordering the JL 10TW3-D4, but realized that I would’ve had to enlarge the box hole. Since the Audison and JL have comparable specs, I decided to go for the RF.
> 
> View attachment 289194
> 
> 
> View attachment 289195
> 
> 
> 
> Volume-wise for the box, is not optimal but is well within range... Looking forward to test this tomorrow, but there is a catch... Since I made a rabbet notch for the Audison sub, I need to make the diameter about 0.20” bigger, however, I don’t have to make the hole any bigger. I was expecting this anyway, but I had a slim hope that I had made the rabbet big enough for the RF sub to fit, but that was not the case.
> 
> View attachment 289196
> 
> 
> 
> Another aspect to consider is height. The height of the RF T1S2-10, without the grille, is comparable to the Audison APS-10D with the grille. Therefore, I’m not expecting any issues with the sub colliding with the floor panel.
> 
> With the grille, this subwoofer will not fit unless I make the rabbet at least 1/2” deeper, or raise the floor panel 1/2”. I don’t want to modify the box (other than the obvious rabbet diameter enlargement).... hence, I will either install without the grille, or raise the floor. I’m inclined towards not installing the grille.
> 
> View attachment 289197
> 
> 
> 
> This RF T1S2-10 has very good reviews and is regarded as one of the best shallow subs out there. I’ll provide more information on my comparison, hopefully tomorrow. It does look impressive. I hope is sounds as good.
> 
> View attachment 289198


I hope that I've shown you that raising your floor is easy. It can be done in 30 minutes once you make the shims. Raising the floor 1/2" will make no noticeable difference to your cargo area and will give your sub plenty of room to travel. Heck, I didn't notice any difference whatsoever until I raised my floor higher than 1". Give it a shot. If you don't like it you can change it back easy enough.

Ge0


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> I hope that I've shown you that raising your floor is easy. It can be done in 30 minutes once you make the shims. Raising the floor 1/2" will make no noticeable difference to your cargo area and will give your sub plenty of room to travel. Heck, I didn't notice any difference whatsoever until I raised my floor higher than 1". Give it a shot. If you don't like it you can change it back easy enough.
> 
> Ge0


My floor is already raised 1/4”, using your technique. I’ll have to raise it up to 3/4”. Let’s see... I may end up doing that and see how it looks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## santirx

SUB BOX SURGERY:

Started the modification cutting a template to the exact measurement on a 1/4” MDF panel. 










I’m using this tool with the router to follow the contour of the hole I cut in the 1/4” MDF panel...










Adhered the template to the sub box using template tape...










Initiating precision cut...










Cut finished... I will need to fix a few defects and paint it at a later point, when the weather cooperates... for now, the surgery is complete and the box is fully functional. 










Continued...


----------



## santirx

SUBWOOFER REBOOT:

Audison APS-10D and Rockford Fosgate T1S2-10 side by side... The RF construction seems to be more solid, with a cf cone and aluminum dust cover. I feel you are getting what you are paying for. The RF is twice the cost of the Audison. Notable differences are (1) Power, with the Audison at 400W RMS vs the RF at 500W RMS; (2) XMAX, with Audison at 12.6mm and the RF at 15mm; (3) Depth, with Audison at ~3.5in and the RF at an impressive 3in. (4) Material of construction; the RF features a carbon fiber cone, and the Audison has a pressed paper cone. Also, the RF has a huge foam surround.










Side by side they are very similar, as the RF is higher over mounting flange...










The RF mounted in the box...




























Installed in the car. No need to modify the floor height if I don’t install the grille.










Preliminary testing is very impressive... More power, but also more compliance and incredible definition. I‘ll provide more details as I continue to test. I will also have to measure the response change in REW, at a later point.

RF is certainly a great subwoofer manufacturer. As you may remember from previous post, I owned the RF P3SD2-8, and I really liked that little sub.


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> SUBWOOFER REBOOT:
> 
> Audison APS-10D and Rockford Fosgate T1S2-10 side by side... The RF construction seems to be more solid, with a cf cone and aluminum dust cover. I feel you are getting what you are paying for. The RF is twice the cost of the Audison. Notable differences are (1) Power, with the Audison at 400W RMS vs the RF at 500W RMS; (2) XMAX, with Audison at 12.6mm and the RF at 14.2mm; (3) Depth, with Audison at ~3.5in and the RF at an impressive 3in. Also, the RF has a huge foam surround.
> 
> View attachment 289218
> 
> 
> Side by side they are very similar, as the RF is higher over mounting flange...
> 
> View attachment 289219
> 
> 
> The RF mounted in the box...
> 
> View attachment 289214
> 
> 
> View attachment 289215
> 
> 
> View attachment 289216
> 
> 
> Installed in the car. No need to modify the floor height if I don’t install the grille.
> 
> View attachment 289217
> 
> 
> Preliminary testing is very impressive... More power, but also more compliance and incredible definition. I‘ll provide more details as I continue to test. I will also have to measure the response change in REW, at a later point.
> 
> RF is certainly a great subwoofer manufacturer. As you may remember from previous post, I owned the RF P3SD2-8, and I really liked that little sub.


Looks nice.


----------



## santirx

The RF T1S2-10 in action:


__
https://flic.kr/p/2kuGzkm


----------



## santirx

SUBWOOFER REBOOT (CONTINUED):

The weather is Massachusetts was not bad today... about 40 - 45F. So, I decided to paint the subwoofer details, which I did outside, but the drying process was done inside the garage with a heat gun.

I also noticed that as I was removing and reinstalling the subwoofer, the corners were starting to chip away. So, I decided to install a vinyl tape around the hole. Used the heat gun to form the tape around the hole and create a corner protector.




















Installing the RF sub back...




























This is the subwoofer with the grille installed.










The grille comes out about 1" over the subwoofer edge. For now, I will remove the grille. Not sure if I'll install it in the future.










I do like how it came out. I'll post more photos with the sub inside the car later...


----------



## santirx

SUBWOOFER REBOOT (CONT):

Final product, installed in the Macan. I like how the CF simulated vinyl provides an additional accent to the CF cone.














































I continue to listen and fine-tune it. With the RF, I realized I have more flexibility with output volume and frequency range with more compliance and clarity than the Audison. I have to say that the Audison APS-10D is a great subwoofer for its price, probably one of the best out there. But the RF T1S2-10 is in a different class. It shows that Rockford Fosgate expertise is really subwoofers.

After a month or more fine tuning the bass, this is what my system needed to finally cross the finish line.


----------



## sobe_death

Were you able to tune it relatively flat? I remember modeling this sub a while back and found it always had high output, but was super peaky...


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> SUBWOOFER REBOOT (CONT):
> 
> Final product, installed in the Macan. I like how the CF simulated vinyl provides an additional accent to the CF cone.
> 
> View attachment 289338
> 
> 
> View attachment 289339
> 
> 
> View attachment 289340
> 
> 
> View attachment 289341
> 
> 
> View attachment 289342
> 
> 
> I continue to listen and fine-tune it. With the RF, I realized I have more flexibility with output volume and frequency range with more compliance and clarity than the Audison. I have to say that the Audison APS-10D is a great subwoofer for its price, probably one of the best out there. But the RF T1S2-10 is in a different class. It shows that Rockford Fosgate expertise is really subwoofers.
> 
> After a month or more fine tuning the bass, this is what my system needed to finally cross the finish line.


I'm thinking you could have achieved the same goal with a Sundown SD-4 and would not have had to modify the subwoofer enclosure. But, that's just me...


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> I'm thinking you could have achieved the same goal with a Sundown SD-4 and would not have had to modify the subwoofer enclosure. But, that's just me...


I'm not as sure @Ge0... the box is too shallow. The depth from the rabbet to the interior layer highlighted in yellow in the photo is 3.5". And about 4.25" to the bottom rib. Not deep enough for the Sundown.

The total depth of the Sundown SD-4 is about 4.4". Also, the exterior diameter is 10.86" vs the RF T1S2-10 at 10.83". The rabbet diameter was about 10.7". So, if I were able to fit the subwoofer depth-wise, I would've had to enlarge the rabbet diameter...

I looked at several alternatives to replace the Audison, including the 10TW3-D4, and even with that subwoofer, I would had to modify the box. With the RF, there was really minimal modification. 

The Audison APS-10D depth is 3.46", and it was almost touching that bottom layer. The RF depth is 3".


----------



## santirx

sobe_death said:


> Were you able to tune it relatively flat? I remember modeling this sub a while back and found it always had high output, but was super peaky...


I try to tune to Harman (green line), so I don't strive for a flat curve. I like my bass punchy, so I increase output level from 30 to 70Hz. I still need to work some peaks out, like that one at 130Hz and that one at 1300Hz, but I'm waiting for the Helix V Twelve to arrive. For now, the system sounds good enough for me.

When I compare the Audison APS-10D vs the RF T1S2-10, I find the Audison more peaky... See both graphs below.

This graph shows the RF T1S2-10 (focus on 30-70Hz):










This one shows the Audison APS-10D (focus on 30 to 70Hz):










EDIT: another contributing factor may had been related to the application of acoust-x compound in the interior of the box. I was intending to do a before and after REW measurement with the Audison after application of the acoust-x, but didn’t do it before installing the RF...


----------



## santirx

@Ge0, or others, I have a question for you... The subwoofer, without the grille, have some clearance when I close the lid.

I did my best to measure that gap, and there is a gradient from back to front. At the back, the gap is about 10mm, and 6mm in the front. The XMAX of this subwoofer is 15mm. I’m afraid that some part of this sub will hit that lid at some point.

Is that a fair concern? Do I need to be concerned about any part of the sub hitting that lid?

If that’s the case, I may need to consider lifting the floor (maybe only at the two front support points) at least 1/4”.


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> @Ge0, or others, I have a question for you... The subwoofer, without the grille, have some clearance when I close the lid.
> 
> I did my best to measure that gap, and there is a gradient from back to front. At the back, the gap is about 10mm, and 6mm in the front. The XMAX of this subwoofer is 15mm. I’m afraid that some part of this sub will hit that lid at some point.
> 
> Is that a fair concern? Do I need to be concerned about any part of the sub hitting that lid?
> 
> If that’s the case, I may need to consider lifting the floor (maybe only at the two front support points) at least 1/4”.
> 
> View attachment 289459


Xmax is 15mm but Xmech is probably closer to 20mm. You're cone is going to hit your floor cover. Raise it another 1/2" like I suggested. You don't want to risk damaging your sub if you feel like getting rowdy with the bass.

For instance, The cone on my sub can travel 25mm. That's why I raised my floor an inch


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Xmax is 15mm but Xmech is probably closer to 20mm. You're cone is going to hit your floor cover. Raise it another 1/2" like I suggested. You don't want to risk damaging your sub if you feel like getting rowdy with the bass.
> 
> For instance, The cone on my sub can travel 25mm. That's why I raised my floor an inch


Thanks, makes sense. It seems I have some work for this afternoon, fabricating some shims to raise that floor. I’ll try to fit the grille, that will ensure maximum protection.

I have been thinking about buying a cheap extra lid on eBay, and making a hole in it, so that it can close it around the subwoofer grille. But I’ll raise it first and see how it looks.


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> Thanks, makes sense. It seems I have some work for this afternoon, fabricating some shims to raise that floor. I’ll try to fit the grille, that will ensure maximum protection.
> 
> I have been thinking about buying a cheap extra lid on eBay, and making a hole in it, so that it can close it around the subwoofer grille. But I’ll raise it first and see how it looks.


FYI. You may need to pick up some longer screws for your tie downs. I bought some 60mm long bolts from Mcmaster Carr.


----------



## santirx

I've been reading about the differences between XMAX and X-MECH. Based on what I'm reading, I'm understanding that approaching or exceeding X-MECH values you will be close, if not at a point of damaging the subwoofer.

Would it be fair to say that in order to approach X-MECH values, especially for this subwoofer, you really have to crank the volume up to ridiculous levels?

I'm inclined to raise the floor a few millimeters over XMAX (which is actually 14.2mm - the website states 15mm, but the manual states that actual XMAX is 14.2mm). I re-measured the subwoofer more precisely today, and the gap in front portion of the sub is actually 12mm from top of suspension to bottom of the floor lid (not 6mm as I had measured previously). Raising the floor a total of 1/2" (adding 1/4" shim to the existing 1/4" shim) will increase the gap to 18.4mm, which will provide a 4.2mm margin from XMAX.


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> I've been reading about the differences between XMAX and X-MECH. Based on what I'm reading, I'm understanding that approaching or exceeding X-MECH values you will be close, if not at a point of damaging the subwoofer.
> 
> Would it be fair to say that in order to approach X-MECH values, especially for this subwoofer, you really have to crank the volume up to ridiculous levels?
> 
> I'm inclined to raise the floor a few millimeters over XMAX (which is actually 14.2mm - the website states 15mm, but the manual states that actual XMAX is 14.2mm). I re-measured the subwoofer more precisely today, and the gap in front portion of the sub is actually 12mm (not 6mm as I had measured previously). Raising the floor a total of 1/2" (adding 1/4" shim to the existing 1/4" shim), then I will be at 18.4mm gap, which will provide a 4.2mm margin from XMAX.


Holy [email protected] you are over thinking things. X-max is an excursion rating set to a certain distortion level. The cone certainly can and will exceed this level if you really kick up the bass. Just give it some space to move and you'll be fine. No, you don't want to make it a habit of hitting X-mech. But, that is a target limit to set.


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Holy [email protected] you are over thinking things.


Isn't that what us engineers do?


----------



## DaveG

santirx said:


> Isn't that what us engineers do?


Especially the order of what pair of khakis and plaid shirt you'll wear Monday - Friday! LOL


----------



## santirx

DaveG said:


> Especially the order of what pair of khakis and plaid shirt you'll wear Monday - Friday! LOL


Exactly. If it wasn’t for my wife, I would have my closet full of the exact same blue color long sleeve shirt with khaki pants, so that I don’t have to think what to wear. Now my closet is full of shirts in different shades of blue, and some gray ones.... 😄


----------



## DaveG

santirx said:


> Exactly. If it wasn’t for my wife, I would have my closet full of the exact same blue color long sleeve shirt with khaki pants, so that I don’t have to think what to wear. Now my closet is full of shirts in different shades of blue, and some gray ones.... 😄


#GERANIMALS!


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Holy [email protected] you are over thinking things. X-max is an excursion rating set to a certain distortion level. The cone certainly can and will exceed this level if you really kick up the bass. Just give it some space to move and you'll be fine. No, you don't want to make it a habit of hitting X-mech. But, that is a target limit to set.


I raised the floor 3/4” and could not fit the grille, probably 2 or 3mm too high. On top of that, I could not fit the side supports very well on a 3/4” shim, which had to disengage from other trims.

Tried the 1/2” shims, without the grille, and it looks better, but I’m not loving it. I still could not install those side supports well. It seems that 1/4” is as high as you can go before you have to disengage those side supports from the other trims.

I think I’m going to bite the bullet and make the rabbet deeper. I still have 1in thickness in that rabbet, and I could go probably 3/8” or even 1/2” deeper. That will give the OCD part of me some mental peace.

I’m also giving consideration to buying a used lid and making a through hole, so that I can install that grille. I think it would look cool, with the lid close, you can see the that grille.


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> I raised the floor 3/4” and could not fit the grille, probably 2 or 3mm too high. On top of that, I could not fit the side supports very well on a 3/4” shim, which had to disengage from other trims.
> 
> Tried the 1/2” shims, without the grille, and it looks better, but I’m not loving it. I still could not install those side supports well. It seems that 1/4” is as high as you can go before you have to disengage those side supports from the other trims.
> 
> I think I’m going to bite the bullet and make the rabbet deeper. I still have 1in thickness in that rabbet, and I could go probably 3/8” or even 1/2” deeper. That will give the OCD part of me some mental peace.
> 
> I’m also giving consideration to buying a used lid and making a through hole, so that I can install that grille. I think it would look cool, with the lid close, you can see the that grille.


I would think twice about buying a 2nd floor and cutting a hole for the grill. I can foresee dirt and grime getting inside and coating your cone. 

Yes, I had to disengage the floor pieces from the vehicles side trim. But, after 5 months of having it this way there is no negative impact. it still holds a few cases of beer and wine just fine 

Ge0


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> I would think twice about buying a 2nd floor and cutting a hole for the grill. I can foresee dirt and grime getting inside and coating your cone.
> 
> Yes, I had to disengage the floor pieces from the vehicles side trim. But, after 5 months of having it this way there is no negative impact. it still holds a few cases of beer and wine just fine
> 
> Ge0


Thanks. Glad to hear... about the cases of beer and wine. Very important!

About that second lid, my trunk is just for show... is like new. I never carry anything on that trunk... that’s what my wife’s Volvo is for...😊. But I hear you.

I think I’ll end up modifying the box slightly, increase the depth of the rabbet. Although I was trying to avoid that, I can do it easily.


----------



## santirx

So... this is where I landed with the trunk lid. I removed the 1/4” shims and installed 1/2” shims under the silver hooks you can see in the photo. That sets the height of the whole floor, raising it a total of 1/2” (12.7mm).

That provided a gap from top of subwoofer to bottom of the lid to a little over 17mm, about 2.8mm above XMAX.

After I secured everything, it didn’t look as bad as I thought. No visible gaps. The only thing that was concerning me was the buckling of the center of the lid, under load. To solve that, I installed two layers of sound insulation at the edge of the lid closest to the trunk door... (see last photo).










You can only notice the difference if you know is there. I asked my wife if she noticed anything different or strange about my trunk, and she was oblivious. She didn’t notice, until I told her, then she said... oh! and quickly lost interest... .










This is the edge of the lid closest to the trunk door, and how it looks from the side. You can see is higher than the trim, but is not bothersome. There is no visible gap, where you could see through, when the lid is closed.










This is where I installed 2 layers of 9.5mm sound insulation. Now the lid, with the sound insulator, rest on the edge of the opening, with no buckling under load, and also added some structural compression strength to the lid, when closed.










I was not able to install the grille, and I don’t feel I need it (I think I will be returning the it to Crutchfield). To be able to install the grille, I needed to raise the floor a minimum of 7/8” (not happening).

I’m not willing to raise the floor any more than it is, as more than 1/2” will be noticeable. And I really want to avoid having to modify the box. So, this is a good compromise, and my OCD side is kind of agreeing.


----------



## DaveG

Put a marble size piece of clay in a couple of spots around the surround and crank up a bass heavy song and see what you got.


----------



## santirx

DaveG said:


> Put a marble size piece of clay in a couple of spots around the surround and crank up a bass heavy song and see what you got.


That’s a good idea. I may try that over the weekend.


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> So... this is where I landed with the trunk lid. I removed the 1/4” shims and installed 1/2” shims under the silver hooks you can see in the photo. That sets the height of the whole floor, raising it a total of 1/2” (12.7mm).
> 
> That provided a gap from top of subwoofer to bottom of the lid to a little over 17mm, about 2.8mm above XMAX.
> 
> After I secured everything, it didn’t look as bad as I thought. No visible gaps. The only thing that was concerning me was the buckling of the center of the lid, under load. To solve that, I installed two layers of sound insulation at the edge of the lid closest to the trunk door... (see last photo).
> 
> View attachment 289549
> 
> 
> You can only notice the difference if you know is there. I asked my wife if she noticed anything different or strange about my trunk, and she was oblivious. She didn’t notice, until I told her, then she said... oh! and quickly lost interest... .
> 
> View attachment 289550
> 
> 
> This is the edge of the lid closest to the trunk door, and how it looks from the side. You can see is higher than the trim, but is not bothersome. There is no visible gap, where you could see through, when the lid is closed.
> 
> View attachment 289551
> 
> 
> This is where I installed 2 layers of 9.5mm sound insulation. Now the lid, with the sound insulator, rest on the edge of the opening, with no buckling under load, and also added some structural compression strength to the lid, when closed.
> 
> View attachment 289552
> 
> 
> I was not able to install the grille, and I don’t feel I need it (I think I will be returning the it to Crutchfield). To be able to install the grille, I needed to raise the floor a minimum of 7/8” (not happening).
> 
> I’m not willing to raise the floor any more than it is, as more than 1/2” will be noticeable. And I really want to avoid having to modify the box. So, this is a good compromise, and my OCD side is kind of agreeing.


Three things.

1.) OCD for sure. I love it when you said your wife immediately lost interest 
2.) You may want to leave some gaps at the edge of the trunk lid where you placed the foam (your pic with the yellow arrows). This is good breathing space for the sub that is tapped under the hatch.
3.) Did I see a few specs of dust and debris trapped in the trunk carpet? I thought you were a neat freak LOL 

Good job.

Ge0


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Three things.
> 
> 1.) OCD for sure. I love it when you said your wife immediately lost interest
> 2.) You may want to leave some gaps at the edge of the trunk lid where you placed the foam (your pic with the yellow arrows). This is good breathing space for the sub that is tapped under the hatch.
> 3.) Did I see a few specs of dust and debris trapped in the trunk carpet? I thought you were a neat freak LOL
> 
> Good job.
> 
> Ge0


1) 

2) There is a small gap in the middle, but I’ll cut some more... thanks.

3) oh... that photo was taken immediately after reassembly. That lid is already clean and pristine...


----------



## santirx

I purchased the Helix V Twelve 90 days ago, bought it at a place in Germany. Been waiting since then. I guess they selected the slowest delivery carrier in the planet. After no movement since Nov 26, 2020, yesterday it gave signs of life when it showed up at a USPS network distribution center in New Jersey... What a long ride. I hope to finally receive the thing in the next few days...


----------



## santirx

PART 8.1: AMPLIFIER “REBOOT”

After 95 days of wait, I finally received the Helix V Twelve today...










Really nice package...










I certainly was aware of the dimensions, but seeing it in person, I realize how compact the package is for a 12 channel amplifier. Very solid construction... Feels more compact than the Audison APF 8.9.





































Got the WIFI Control as well...










Now... to plan the installation... Not sure when, yet. Is going to start warming up in a month or two, so maybe by then...


----------



## asnatlas

Any updates ?


----------



## santirx

I’m still working through installation... going slower than I would like, but weather and other priorities are preventing me from finishing this for the moment...

A little preview...

Fabricated metal plate to hold amp in place (here with a mock amplifier).











The mounting plate has a front aluminum plate for the Helix V Twelve, the WiFi control and the Helix SDMI25.... and a bolted HDPE back plate where I’m mounting the Audison AP1D and the Toro MRx4.










Lastly, here I am testing fit...










I do hope to wrap this up sometime in May and add a proper post on the upgrade and my impressions between the Audison APF 8.9 and the Helix V Twelve.

Stay Tuned!


----------



## oekundar

santirx said:


> I’m still working through installation... going slower than I would like, but weather and other priorities are preventing me from finishing this for the moment...
> 
> A little preview...
> 
> Fabricated metal plate to hold amp in place (here with a mock amplifier).
> 
> 
> View attachment 298471
> 
> 
> The mounting plate has a front aluminum plate for the Helix V Twelve, the WiFi control and the Helix SDMI25.... and a bolted HDPE back plate where I’m mounting the Audison AP1D and the Toro MRx4.
> 
> View attachment 298472
> 
> 
> Lastly, here I am testing fit...
> 
> View attachment 298473
> 
> 
> I do hope to wrap this up sometime in May and add a proper post on the upgrade and my impressions between the Audison APF 8.9 and the Helix V Twelve.
> 
> Stay Tuned!


I was curious as to the motivation for the move from Audison to Helix...I’ll go back through the thread but thanks for the beak wetting update. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## santirx

oekundar said:


> I was curious as to the motivation for the move from Audison to Helix...I’ll go back through the thread but thanks for the beak wetting update.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The only reason I got the Helix was because I wanted to go full active in my car. Moving from the Audison 8.1 channel amplifier to the Helix 12.2 channel. I currently have 8 passive crossovers (4 LPF and 4 HPF) installed in my system and I want to take all passive crossovers out. 

Not necessarily because I didn’t like it, because the sound is great right now, but because I had a good opportunity to get one and I’m just curious about the comparison. Also, @Ge0 had been trying to convince me to move from Audison to Helix for quite some time now... 

There is also a difference in power output with Audison at 85W per channel vs Helix at 75W... that would be interesting to see, but the Helix have more complex software technology, more options. 

I’m hoping I can write a good comparison between the two. That will take some time.


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> The only reason I got the Helix was because I wanted to go full active in my car. Moving from the Audison 8.1 channel amplifier to the Helix 12.2 channel. I currently have 8 passive crossovers (4 LPF and 4 HPF) installed in my system and I want to take all passive crossovers out.
> 
> Not necessarily because I didn’t like it, because the sound is great right now, but because I had a good opportunity to get one and I’m just curious about the comparison. Also, @Ge0 had been trying to convince me to move from Audison to Helix for quite some time now...
> 
> There is also a difference in power output with Audison at 85W per channel vs Helix at 75W... that would be interesting to see, but the Helix have more complex software technology, more options.
> 
> I’m hoping I can write a good comparison between the two. That will take some time.


Yep. It's my fault. I was thinking about ways to get @santirx to spend more money on car audio. However, he went out and bought the Frogs all on his own


----------



## santirx

PART 8.1: AMPLIFIER REBOOT - The Helix V Twelve (PLANNING, DESIGN & WIRING):

I took my time to plan wiring and installation of this amplifier. My objective all along was to make this a modular installation, with quick connection for ease of installation and removal if required. That design approach necessitated the careful planning of a modular mounting plate, as well as the addition of quick connections.

My installation consist of a main Bose adapter quick connector for existing speakers. An additional quick connector for remaining speakers that were previously tethered through passive crossovers. Quick connectors for all power connections and a quick connector for the subwoofer. This resulted in a reduced installation time. I can install or remove the amplifier module from my car in less than 3 minutes.

My Porsche Macan have the two surround drivers wired together, with one of them with inverted polarity for effect. Early on during my design, I decided I wanted to have all 14 drivers/speakers in my system (including the surround drivers) with a dedicated channel. The Helix V Twelve has 12 amplified channels and 2 pre-amp channels. To accommodate that requirement, I assigned the center speaker to one of the pre-amp channels, amplified with a Toro MRx4. That left enough channels to accommodate both surround drivers with its own amplified channel.

Once I ordered all materials required, I started the process of wiring Helix amplifier. For that, I started with the wiring diagram. Letters with the two lines below represent new wiring in the car, hence would need to go to the gray quick connector. Letters without the two lines below would be wired to existing OEM wiring through the black Bose connector.










The letters I designated in the line diagram correspond to the output channel letters in the amplifier, shown below:











Started with the wiring of the Helix V Twelve...



















You can see the Bose connector on top and the gray connector on the bottom...










Both Helix V Twelve and Toro MRx4 with speaker/driver wiring completed...










Then, focused some time on power wiring and other ancillary wiring (i.e. REM IN)... This is the Toro MRx4 power wiring. I initially connected the REM IN wire to the Power quick connect, but realized later that it was not the best place to add this wire if I wanted quick installation and removal. I connected this REM IN wire with an alternate approach later.










Helix V Twelve with power wiring. Did the same with the REM IN (used different approach afterwards)...










Now, tidying up wire bundles...



















To be continued...


----------



## santirx

PART 8.1: AMPLIFIER REBOOT - The Helix V Twelve (THE MOUNTING PLATE):

Continuing with the modular theme, I wanted to build a mounting assembly that could allow me to install all amplifiers and accessories on it. These were the following:

1. Helix V Twelve
2. Audison AP1D
3. Toro MRx4
4. Helix SDMI25
5. Helix WiFi Control

To start the design, I built a mock cardboard template for the plate and all devices...










Testing in place... this allowed me to modify the design slightly before I started to cut on actual material. It also allowed me to test different configurations for equipment placement. I decided to put the Helix V Twelve on the front, and the Audison AP1D and Toro MRx4 on the back of the plate.










These are the Toro MRx4 and the Audison AP1D on the back of the plate. 










I decided that I needed two back to back plates, the front plate was going to be 1/8” aluminum, with a back plate made of 1/2” HDPE.

I wanted the two plates to be modular as well, and this means that when separating the plates, I can easily disconnect all wiring (through quick connectors). This was also a consideration.

Started by purchasing the plates...










Aluminum plate cut (used cardboard template to trace form). I added a rod to connect the plate to one of the screws which was way back in the mounting location. Eventually, I modified this design, as the location of that screw was inaccessible when installed.










This is the rod connected to that remote screw.










HDPE back plate. This was a dual purpose plate, not only to install the additional components, but also to add more rigidity to the overall mounting plate structure... I opted to install these nut inserts to be able to quickly attach/detach from front plate.










Front view...


----------



## santirx

PART 8.1: AMPLIFIER REBOOT - The Helix V Twelve (PUTTING EVERYTHING TOGETHER):

There were a few iterations on the placement of the Helix V Twelve on the plate, specific optimal location, and orientation. I ended up orienting it with the main connections to the bottom of the plate, and a little bit lower than shown in the photo.










This is the Toro MRx4 amplifier and the mock Audison AP1D (which at this point was still in service in my car). This orientation would make the these two amplifiers sit vertical when finally installed, for appropriate fitting.










I decided to discard the rod idea, for this bracket. This bracket moved the connection point at the plate to an accessible location...










Transferring the Audison AP1D and the helix SDMI25 from old setup to new one.










Audison AP1D installed...










I opted to install the SDMI25 box and the Helix WIFI Control on the front plate, on top part of the plate, hence why wires could not face up, to provide space for this installation. This allowed the SDMI25 to be close to the optical wire, which is in the general location when installed.










A side view of the assembly...










Module fully assembled and ready to go... in this photo, seen from the back side...










A view of the front...











To be continued...


----------



## santirx

PART 8.1: AMPLIFIER REBOOT - The Helix V Twelve (THE INSTALLATION):

Finishing installation... you can see the Bose adapter and the gray adapter... You can also see from this angle the Helix SDMI25 as well as the Helix WIFI Control.










Final installation... I like how easy it was to insert this module inside this space, without having to remove trims... And everything seems to be in the right place...










in this photo below, I’m highlighting in red, the location of the 3rd support location/screw if I was to use the rod... I would‘ve had to drill a hole in the trim to get access to that 3rd screw. The bracket I prepared, allowed me to bring that screw to an accessible location, shown with the yellow circle. I retrofitted the bracket with a U-Nut, allowing me to just place the screw from the front, without having to worry about placing a nut on the back of the plate...










The next step was to remove all crossovers and re-wire 9 of the 14 speakers...

Some examples below...

Added protection capacitors to all tweeters...










Front midrange...










Rear woofer...










This photo shows all the HPF/LPF crossovers I removed... I think I made my car 30 pounds lighter...


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> PART 8.1: AMPLIFIER REBOOT - The Helix V Twelve (PLANNING, DESIGN & WIRING):
> 
> I took my time to plan wiring and installation of this amplifier. My objective all along was to make this a modular installation, with quick connection for ease of installation and removal if required. That design approach necessitated the careful planning of a modular mounting plate, as well as the addition of quick connections.
> 
> My installation consist of a main Bose adapter quick connector for existing speakers. An additional quick connector for remaining speakers that were previously tethered through passive crossovers. Quick connectors for all power connections and a quick connector for the subwoofer. This resulted in a reduced installation time. I can install or remove the amplifier module from my car in less than 3 minutes.
> 
> My Porsche Macan have the two surround drivers wired together, with one of them with inverted polarity for effect. Early on during my design, I decided I wanted to have all 14 drivers/speakers in my system (including the surround drivers) with a dedicated channel. The Helix V Twelve has 12 amplified channels and 2 pre-amp channels. To accommodate that requirement, I assigned the center speaker to one of the pre-amp channels, amplified with a Toro MRx4. That left enough channels to accommodate both surround drivers with its own amplified channel.
> 
> Once I ordered all material required, I started the process wiring Helix amplifier. For that, I started with the wiring diagram. Letters with the two lines below represent new wiring in the car, hence would need to go to the gray quick connector. Letters without the two lines below would be wired to existing OEM wiring through the black Bose connector.
> 
> View attachment 298815
> 
> 
> Started with the wiring of the Helix V Twelve...
> 
> View attachment 298810
> 
> 
> View attachment 298812
> 
> 
> You can see the Bose connector on top and the gray connector on the bottom...
> 
> View attachment 298813
> 
> 
> Both Helix V Twelve and Toro MRx4 with speaker/driver wiring completed...
> 
> View attachment 298814
> 
> 
> Then, focused some time on power wiring and other ancillary wiring (i.e. REM IN)... This is the Toro MRx4 power wiring. I initially connected the REM IN wire to the Power quick connect, but realized later that it was not the best place to add this wire if I wanted quick installation and removal. I connected this REM IN wire with an alternate approach later.
> 
> View attachment 298816
> 
> 
> Helix V Twelve with power wiring. Did the same with the REM IN (used different approach afterwards)...
> 
> View attachment 298817
> 
> 
> Now, tidying up wire bundles...
> 
> View attachment 298818
> 
> 
> View attachment 298819
> 
> 
> To be continued...


Three questions for you.

#1) Who did you buy the Bose connector from on eBay again? I forgot.
#2) Did you run new wires to both D-pillar speakers or did you discover where they were joined together and splice?
#3) Do those power connectors come with covers to isolate the exposed conductors (screw heads)


----------



## geolemon

I didn't expect to see Toro and Helix amps in the same install - I never really took them serious as a company but I really have no info either way on them.
What are you using them for?

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


----------



## santirx

> #1) Who did you buy the Bose connector from on eBay again? I forgot.


YES. From the same eBay seller.



> #2) Did you run new wires to both D-pillar speakers or did you discover where they were joined together and splice?


NO. I just ran a single wire to the closest surround speaker, and used OEM wire for the farther one.



> #3) Do those power connectors come with covers to isolate the exposed conductors (screw heads)


Yeah... on this... you are not going to like my answer, but I wrapped it up with electrical tape (tons of it) while I wait for a proper shrink cover, large enough to fit... which is on order. Turns out that 3” shrink tubing is not that easy to come by... found a company that I could buy them from that sells them at $3.75/ft. Oddly enough these connectors didn’t come with a sleeve or cap for those screws... but I recognized the risks early on.


----------



## santirx

geolemon said:


> I didn't expect to see Toro and Helix amps in the same install - I never really took them serious as a company but I really have no info either way on them.
> What are you using them for?
> 
> Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


I’m using the Toro to amplify the center channel only. It does a really nice job at it. I’m doing all DSP (freq range, time alignment, output level, effects) at the Helix, the Toro is just amplifying full range.

My first Toro was an MR2 sub amplifier and it is really a small wonder. Great amplifier in a very small package, great reviews... so I figured the MRx4 would be enough for what I wanted.


----------



## Ge0

santirx said:


> YES. From the same eBay seller.
> 
> 
> NO. I just ran a single wire to the closest surround speaker, and used OEM wire for the farther one.
> 
> 
> Yeah... on this... you are not going to like my answer, but I wrapped it up with electrical tape (tons of it) while I wait for a proper shrink cover, large enough to fit... which is on order. Turns out that 3” shrink tubing is not that easy to come by... found a company that I could buy them from that sells them at $3.75/ft. Oddly enough these connectors didn’t come with a sleeve or cap for those screws... but I recognized the risks early on.


What was the NAME of the eBay seller


----------



## santirx

Ge0 said:


> What was the NAME of the eBay seller


Look here... Radio Stereo Install Wiring Harness Kit for Bose Amplified System fits Porsche | eBay

Alternatively, I can send you the one I just took out from my car... just pay shipping...


----------



## santirx

PART 8.1: AMPLIFIER REBOOT - The Helix V Twelve (THE TUNING)

Fired up the DSP Tool and set all frequency ranges, time alignment, polarities and output levels. I reused a lot of these parameters, which I got from the previous setup with the Audison.










After this, I took a baseline REW Measurement.











Then, I configured the Harman/Audiofrog reference curve into the Helix RTA...










... and performed an auto-tune from 25Hz to 20kHz using my UMIK microphone...










The autotuning worked relatively well... I just needed bring up the 3k-8k Hz range and bring down 10kHz and up... all mostly in the tweeter range...











After some additional manual tuning... can't get that area between 10-20kHz to go down. I think it may be related to the effects. I think I did that final tuning with some of the clarity effect turned on, and I believe that increases the high frequencies a bit. I also adjusted the lower frequencies, bringing the Dyns MW182 more to life...

Did some better blending of the front woofers and the subwoofer. I also did the same for the rear, better blending of the rear door speakers with surrounds.


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## ocuriel

Impressive work. Love your fabricating skills.


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## Ge0

santirx said:


> Look here... Radio Stereo Install Wiring Harness Kit for Bose Amplified System fits Porsche | eBay
> 
> Alternatively, I can send you the one I just took out from my car... just pay shipping...
> 
> View attachment 298836


Oh crap. I jumped and ordered a new one from eBay before reading the rest of your message. You better hold onto that 2nd adapter anyway. You'll need it when I talk you into buying your next amp


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## santirx

PART 8.1: AMPLIFIER REBOOT - The Helix V Twelve vs Audison AP F8.9 (COMMENTS & THOUGHTS)

In anticipation of my comments and thoughts, I wanted to start with a side by side comparison between the Helix V Twelve setup and the Audison AP F8.9 setup...

You can clearly see the additional complexity in the Helix installation...

Front:










Back:










In place:


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## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Oh crap. I jumped and ordered a new one from eBay before reading the rest of your message. You better hold onto that 2nd adapter anyway. You'll need it when I talk you into buying your next amp


 Game On!


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## sobe_death

santirx said:


> Look here... Radio Stereo Install Wiring Harness Kit for Bose Amplified System fits Porsche | eBay


Is that second connector the 18-pin? I'm about to jump on that if so... Can't find that thing ANYWHERE!


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## santirx

sobe_death said:


> Is that second connector the 18-pin? I'm about to jump on that if so... Can't find that thing ANYWHERE!


This is a 32-pin Bose standard connector, which had been used for many years (probably since 2006 or 2008) in all Porsche models. Most likely VW family as well. Best to confirm for your own application.

This photo shows the pin order in the connector...










That pin order correspond to the pin numbers in the diagram:


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## sobe_death

I meant the smaller connector in the ebay listing you linked. The VW/Bose/Dynaudio connectors all use that same 32 pin plug, but at least on the Dynaudio amp (maybe Bose?) there is a second 18p connector that has been terrible to find...


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## santirx

sobe_death said:


> I meant the smaller connector in the ebay listing you linked...
> View attachment 299017


Oh, I see. I’ll check the kit when I get home and post a couple of photos...


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## santirx

sobe_death said:


> I meant the smaller connector in the ebay listing you linked. The VW/Bose/Dynaudio connectors all use that same 32 pin plug, but at least on the Dynaudio amp (maybe Bose?) there is a second 18p connector that has been terrible to find...


This is a 16-pin connector...


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## optimaprime

great build with awesome gear! how did you tune the center channel since with it not being on helix amp?


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## santirx

optimaprime said:


> great build with awesome gear! how did you tune the center channel since with it not being on helix amp?


It is in the Helix Amp. The Helix have 2 pre-amp channels. Think of it as another subwoofer output with its own amplifier, only in this case the amplifier is set for full range, and I’m sending DSP signal at the appropriate frequency range from the Helix via the Toro to the center channel. I do all the frequency range setup, time alignment, output level, equalization, etc... at the Helix, for the center channel (same deal for the subwoofer).

The Toro is there just to amplify the signal, nothing else. It works very well, and center is playing beautifully.

As I said earlier, I have 14 drivers/speakers in my car and with the Helix having 12 amplifier channels and 2 pre-amp channels, I decided to give this a go so that each driver had its own channel.


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## santirx

Some additional tuning done... I think I'm done tuning, but from experience, I'll keep finding ways to undo and redo, then undo, then redo this...

I may work a little bit more with the subwoofer/midbass transition there. I may also play with the front/rear balance to create improved ambience (to my ear... I know this is relative, but I like what I like)... but not sure.


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## santirx

Ge0 said:


> #3) Do those power connectors come with covers to isolate the exposed conductors (screw heads)


On your final question, I finally received the right size heat shrink tubing. Removed electrical tape and replaced with the tubing.

With this, the project is finalized (I hope).


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## Ge0

santirx said:


> On your final question, I finally received the right size heat shrink tubing.
> 
> With this, the project is finalized (I hope).
> 
> View attachment 299835
> 
> 
> View attachment 299836


That will work. I might have went with shrink with glue inside but that makes serviceability suck. Looks good.


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## sobe_death

santirx said:


> This is a 16-pin connector...


Dang, looks more like the main stereo harness plug and it doesn't match, but good source for the 32-pin!


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## santirx

Final tuning done:


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## Ge0

santirx said:


> Final tuning done:
> 
> View attachment 300058


Baaaahhh ha ha ha😆😂🤣😂😅😆😅. Oooooohhh🤗. Did this guy just say final tuning. Well, let's see how long that lasts...


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## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Baaaahhh ha ha ha😆😂🤣😂😅😆😅. Oooooohhh🤗. Did this guy just say final tuning. Well, let's see how long that lasts...


Yeah right. I was waiting for your reaction!! This is the second final tuning…. 🤣


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## santirx

Ge0 said:


> Baaaahhh ha ha ha😆😂🤣😂😅😆😅. Oooooohhh🤗. Did this guy just say final tuning. Well, let's see how long that lasts...


I just did a 3rd Final Tuning….😂


----------



## santirx

So… I don’t know how this happened, but… here we go.

For a few weeks, I been having issues with the front stage of the car with my Helix V Twelve. Even my daughter when she sat down to hear the system said “ugh, sounds artificial”…. And she is not an audiophile by any stretch of imagination… she would be happy with a small Bose wireless speaker.

I’ve been trying to diagnose the situation for some time now, without much luck. I redid my time alignment, I have shifted crossover frequencies, more tuning (yes, more tuning) etc…

This past weekend, I finally decided to check the full setup/configuration (back to basics).

Come to find out that I inadvertently assigned the Digital Left input to my Front Right Virtual Channel…. That means that the right tweeter, midrange and woofer were playing Left signal. I basically created a huge monoaural stage in the front. As soon as I fixed that, voila! Everything fell into place, of course.

What irritates me is that all the signs were there and I didn’t picked on them immediately:

1. When playing rear speakers alone, they would sound great… as soon as I added the front, sound was off.

2. The stage expander function wasn’t doing anything at all. With the fix, I can now hear the difference.

3. RealCenter feature was also not doing well. Now, this is really a great feature that I will leave on, as it highlights/enhances the vocals without affecting the sound stage.

I’m glad, however, that I was able to figure this out.

Pretty soon I’ll be trying the Automatic Time Measurement feature….

In addition, I’ll write my views (my own opinion) on the HelixV Twelve vs the Audison AP F8.9 soon.


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## Ge0

I spent a week tracking down something similar. My front stage just started to sound like @ss all the sudden. However, I couldn't find anything wrong. As it turns out my entire left side was delayed by 10mS. This was pulling the image right and creating what sounded like a monaural signal. I have no idea how this happened. But once corrected made a night and day difference.


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## MythosDreamLab

Helix Gremlins at work...(or play)


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## santirx

MythosDreamLab said:


> Helix Gremlins at work...(or play)


Yes. In that sense, the Audison is much simpler and straight forward to setup, especially if one adds the virtual processing in the Helix.

I like the Helix interface better though… easier to tune in my opinion…. More on the differences later.


----------



## santirx

*Comparison of the Audison AP F8.9 vs the Audiotec Fischer Helix V Twelve - PART 1: The Setup*

As stated before, one of the main reasons I decided to replace the Audison AP F8.9 for the Helix V Twelve was to move away from passive crossovers. I have a total of 14 speakers in my car, and the Helix have 12 amplified channels and 2 pre-amplified channels. If you read my log, you are aware that I used all channels of the Helix amplifier.

I'm starting the comparison with the setup process, but intend to talk a little bit about the Human Machine Interface (HMI) or main configuration screen, Tuning and some other capabilities and options. Then, I'll provide my personal opinion on which one I like the most.

*SETUP*

I start my review comparing the setup process in both amplifiers.

The Audison AP F8.9










The Audison is simpler to setup, only going through a single configuration wizard. In my case, I have a digital input, hence I got to skip a couple of steps in setting the inputs and gains. The Audison has an internal capability of de-equalizing an incoming signal, and that means that you can actually install this amplifier on top of an OEM amplifier. It de-equalizes the signal and you can re-equalize and use output levels and all other features of this aftermaket DSP.










You can also bridge the channels for a combined output power of 4x260W @ 4-ohms. The Audison has 8 channels at 85W RMS 4-ohms each with a single pre-amp channel. You can do that in the setup wizard as well by checking the box of the channels you want to bridge. This is a capability that the Helix V Twelve doesn’t have. The Audison has a set of pre-defined speakers and locations. You'll have to activate the ones you want, and also crossover the ones you need to, by activating the "X" symbol. In my specific case, I had to designate one of the center speakers depicted in the diagram below in the front of the car as the center channel and the other one as the rear surround fill (the two surround speakers were tethered together using a single channel, one with opposite polarity).










Then, you assign the output channels. That's all.











The Helix V Twelve










One of the first things I had to decide in my setup is whether I wanted to activate "virtual channel processing". It is important to plan this at the beginning of the setup, as changing this would reset the setup. I decided to activate this feature, as it comes with some real nice advantages that I'll discuss later. Other than the additional amplified channels, this is where the main difference between the Audison and the Helix lies.










At this point, I then had to assign the digital L/R inputs to the virtual channels. Think about the virtual channels as if creating zones for your speakers. Creating those zones is important to assign different effects for front stage, center stage and subwoofer. I was able to assign either 100% of Left or Right inputs to the Left/Right "stereo" virtual channels, and 50% L + 50% R to monoaural channels, like the center channel and subwoofer. I also assigned this configuration to the Rear Fill, but ended up not using it, as I wired my surround rear fills independently.










The next step is to assign the virtual channels to the output channels. In this case, I matched all Front virtual channels to the corresponding L/R front speakers (except center channel). I used the dedicated center virtual channel for the center channel output. And all rear output channels (including the surrounds) got assigned the corresponding L/R rear virtual channels. The subwoofer got a dedicated virtual channel as well.










The Helix has 12x75W RMS at 4-ohms channels and 2 pre-amp channels.

As you can see, with both amplifiers, it is imperative to plan the setup to reduce errors. The Helix is slightly more complex, but it is a very robust setup.

I'll continue to compare the two in subsequent posts...


----------



## MythosDreamLab

awesome post, thanks!


----------



## oekundar

santirx said:


> *Comparison of the Audison AP F8.9 vs the Audiotec Fischer Helix V Twelve (The Setup)*
> 
> As stated before, one of the main reasons I decided to replace the Audison AP F8.9 for the Helix V Twelve was to move away from passive crossovers. I have a total of 14 speakers in my car, and the Helix have 12 amplified channels and 2 pre-amplified channels. If you read my log, you are aware that I used all channels of the Helix amplifier.
> 
> I'm starting the comparison with the setup process, but intend to talk a little bit about the Human Machine Interface (HMI) or main configuration screen, Tuning and some other capabilities and options. Then, I'll provide my personal opinion on which one I like the most.
> 
> *SETUP*
> 
> I start my review comparing the setup process in both amplifiers.
> 
> The Audison AP F8.9
> 
> View attachment 303544
> 
> 
> The Audison is simpler to setup, only going through a single configuration wizard. In my case, I have a digital input, hence I got to skip a couple of steps in setting the inputs and gains. The Audison has an internal capability of de-equalizing an incoming signal, and that means that you can actually install this amplifier on top of an OEM amplifier. It de-equalizes the signal and you can re-equalize and use output levels and all other features of this aftermaket DSP.
> 
> View attachment 303536
> 
> 
> You can also bridge the channels for a combined output power of 4x260W @ 4-ohms. The Audison has 8 channels at 85W RMS 4-ohms each with a single pre-amp channel. You can do that in the setup wizard as well by checking the box of the channels you want to bridge. This is a capability that the Helix V Twelve doesn’t have. The Audison has a set of pre-defined speakers and locations. You'll have to activate the ones you want, and also crossover the ones you need to, by activating the "X" symbol. In my specific case, I had to designate one of the center speakers as the center channel and the other one as the rear surround fill (which in my case were tethered together.
> 
> View attachment 303537
> 
> 
> Then, you assign the output channels. That's all.
> 
> View attachment 303538
> 
> 
> 
> The Helix V Twelve
> 
> View attachment 303545
> 
> 
> One of the first things I had to decide in my setup is whether I wanted to activate "virtual channel processing". It is important to plan this at the beginning of the setup, as changing this would reset the setup. I decided to activate this feature, as it comes with some real nice advantages that I'll discuss later. Other than the additional amplified channels, this is where the main difference between the Audison and the Helix lies.
> 
> View attachment 303539
> 
> 
> At this point, I then had to assign the digital L/R inputs to the virtual channels. Think about the virtual channels as if creating zones for your speakers. Creating those zones is important to assign different effects for front stage, center stage and subwoofer. I was able to assign either 100% of Left or Right inputs to the Left/Right "stereo" virtual channels, and 50% L + 50% R to monoaural channels, like the center channel and subwoofer. I also assigned this configuration to the Rear Fill, but ended up not using it, as I wired my surround rear fills independently.
> 
> View attachment 303540
> 
> 
> The next step is to assign the virtual channels to the output channels. In this case, I matched all Front virtual channels to the corresponding L/R front speakers (except center channel). I used the dedicated center virtual channel for the center channel output. And all rear output channels (including the surrounds) got assigned the corresponding L/R rear virtual channels. The subwoofer got a dedicated virtual channel as well.
> 
> View attachment 303541
> 
> 
> The Helix has 12x75W RMS at 4-ohms channels and 2 pre-amp channels.
> 
> As you can see, with both amplifiers, it is imperative to plan the setup to reduce errors. The Helix is slightly more complex, but it is a very robust setup.
> 
> I'll continue to compare the two in subsequent posts...


Thanks for the details! Ironically in my panamera today I thought about yours and Ge0s installs. I know the Bose is meh...but I wasn’t sure how significant an improvement you were getting with your new setups.

Keep it coming!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## be.jammmin

How are you getting signal to the audison sub amp if you are using the pre-outs on the Helix to the Toro? Did I miss a post?

Thanks B


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## be.jammmin

Excellent install by the way. Similar to the way I am intending in my Trackhawk. 


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## santirx

be.jammmin said:


> How are you getting signal to the audison sub amp if you are using the pre-outs on the Helix to the Toro? Did I miss a post?
> 
> Thanks B
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, you probably missed it. It is somewhere in my log. 

The Helix has two pre-amp outputs. I used one (channel M), connected to one of the 4 channels of the Toro MRx4, to power the Center Channel. I used the other (channel N), connected to the Audison AP1D, to power the subwoofer.


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## be.jammmin

Thanks for the clarity. I forgot that the ap1d is a mono input and also didn’t realize that the helix would allow you to assign each output separately. Live the Helix’s flexibility 

Thanks B


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## santirx

*Comparison of the Audison AP F8.9 vs the Audiotec Fischer Helix V Twelve - PART 2: The HMI & Tuning*

HMI (Human Machine Interface): Below, I have included a screenshot of the main interface for both amplifiers.

*Audison:*

This is the main screen, where you would perform basically all the configuration in the Audison. I found the Audison to have a more basic interface. User-friendliness is average, as you have to use gestures to setup frequencies (especially in the tuning graph), which is not very accurate.










*Helix:*

This is the main screen for the Helix, which you can select by pressing the "Outputs" button at the top row, but unlike the Audison, there are other additional screens/modules available for additional options and configuration. The Helix sports tons of options, including its own Real Time Analyzer, and some automated features, like auto-tuning and automated time delay setup, which I will go into a little more detail later. It also has a Virtual Channel configuration and tuning module, the DCM module for some basic setup, FX module to activate some effects (only available if you selected Virtual Channel Processing), IO module used for setup of channels (see first post on this topic) and the Time module for Time Alignment. These are all selected in that first row. User-friendliness is above average.

Outputs Channel Screen:










Virtual Channel Screen:

You can also affect the tuning at the virtual channel level. In this case, you will be affecting the group of speakers associated to the virtual channel. On the top left you can see a box diagram depicting the input to virtual channel to output channels. Below the virtual channel box, there are boxes depicting what capabilities are active for the virtual channel. In my case, I did about 99.5% of my configuration and tuning in the Outputs screen, but I did use this virtual channel screen to enhance the tuning of my subwoofer.










Additional thoughts and comparison on the HMI:

In the Audison, you can select channels by either clicking on the speaker on the top right schematic or in the bottom right list. Selecting a speaker will change the configuration window (middle bottom) and the equalizer (left bottom) to the configuration related to the selected speaker. The output level (middle top) and DRC (left top) will not change. This is very convenient as you don’t have to select the speakers to play with output levels, which is different from the Helix. In addition, if you check the “link” checkbox, you can move all the output level sliders at the same time. This can be convenient when you want to move all output levels in relation to a single channel you want higher. In the Helix, the output level is embedded in each channel, so to change the level you need to select the specific channel.

In the Helix, you select the speakers in the 3rd row of bottons (top to bottom). You can link speakers by selecting the checkboxes in the 2nd row (you select the first speaker and check the box, then check the box of the second speaker you want to link). This is advantageous because this allows you to match the two linked speakers. Whatever you do in one, it gets adjusted automatically in the other. This is a feature also present in the Audison when selecting "Xover L/R link" in the channel configuration window.

Another difference is the ability in the Audison to select a single speaker to play during tuning with a single click, by selecting "Solo" in the channel you want to listen at the output level window. This action will automatically mute remaining channels. This is advantageous when you want to quickly listen to a single channel while tuning. Alternatively, you can Mute all channels and leave the one you want to listen to. In the Helix, you can only mute. That means that in order to listen to a single speaker, you have to mute the other 13 channels.

In the Audison, the speaker configuration is done in the middle bottom window, while in the Helix, this is accomplish in rows 4 through 8. The following table shows a comparison of the configuration parameters. As you can see, there is much more flexibility with the Helix, although I don’t want to minimize what you can accomplish with the Audison, even with less flexibility. You can still get a nicely configured system with the Audison. As a matter of fact, all of my characteristic curves in the Helix are Linkwitz, with a lot of slopes at -24dB/Oct, which I can also get with the Audison. I did configure some of the tails of one or two of the curves at -36dB/Oct in the Helix.










In the Helix you can save up to 10 configurations, but one remain loaded to memory. You can change the configuration, but it takes about 2 seconds to load. With the Audison, you can save up to 2 configurations, and both remain loaded to memory, meaning that toggling between the two memories is instantaneous. Sometimes this is advantageous if you want to quickly compare one setup vs another, by quickly toggling between the two. This is less convenient in the Helix.

Tuning:

The main difference between the two environments is the tuning window.

The Helix, in my opinion, is easier to tune due to the equalizer setup. I like the sliders in the Helix. In the Audison, you have to tune in the graph itself and you are limited to 10 equalization points. Theoretically, you should not need more than 10 points, hence why Audison went this way, but I like the simplicity of the sliders in the Helix.

In the Audison, you add the tuning points by clicking in the graph. You then select the parametric gain by either dragging the point up or down, or pressing up/down arrows. The parametric frequency is selected by moving the point left or right, or pressing left/right arrows. Then you must select the bandwidth by moving two fingers up or down on the mouse pad or pressing the +/- in the keyboard. You can fine tune by pressing Ctrl, with the up/down or left/right keys. You can delete the tuning points by pressing Ctrl-Del. This is just too many keystrokes to memorize right off the bat, and this is why I find the Audison tuning less user-friendly. It is also less precise.

The Helix is simpler and more precise, in my opinion. You just adjust the gain with the slider corresponding to the frequency up or down. You are not limited to 10. You can change the frequency of the sliders by selecting it and moving the middle slider (Hz) in the Fine EQ window up or down. The bandwidth is adjusted by the left slider (Q) in the Fine EQ window. You can fine adjust the gain as well. My experience is that I have gotten better results with REW using the Helix.

Using REW with the amplifiers:

There is an option in REW (EQ Adjustment / EQ Filters) that allows you to compare the actual curve with the reference curve (modified Harman in my case), and in that window, by selecting Match Response to Target, you can calculate the gain, freq and Q-factor, then you use these values to bring the actual curve to target.










You will be able to directly input these values in the Helix amplifier. There is actually an option to import those calculated values directly from REW to the Helix.

Entering those values in the Audison is more complex. I already told you that frequencies are not as precise, hence you need to select (position the tuning point at) the most proximal frequency. The gain would be OK…. You’ll be able to select the exact gain (again, positioning the point at the right gain). Things get a bit more complicated with the Q factor value. You need to convert the Q factor into Bandwidth using the following formula: BW = freq/Q. This will provide the full bandwidth which you will have to calculate when setting up the BW in the Audison to an approximation of BW = f2 - f1 (f2 = high end freq; f2 = low end freq). In the beginning, I used a spreadsheet to do these calculations.










In the end, and as I gained more experience, I wasn’t using this feature from REW as much and I was just winging it (a technical term for trial and error ) …. There is no option in the Audison to import values directly from REW.

Next, I'll compare some of their capabilities and options...


----------



## santirx

*Comparison of the Audison AP F8.9 vs the Audiotec Fischer Helix V Twelve - PART 3: Effects*

In this section, I’m highlighting some of the add-on capabilities of the Helix and the Audison.

Bass Processing:

Available in both the Helix and the Audison, this is where you enhance or boost your bass. Under the FX module, the Helix has an option to enable a Dynamic Bass Enhancement feature, where you can specify frequency and gain. You can only activate and use this option when Virtual Processing is active and you have assigned the virtual subwoofer to the subwoofer output.

There is similar capability in the Audison under settings (Controlled Bass Boost), where you can actually specify frequency and gain, but in addition, you can also specify bandwidth (Q-factor) of the boost. I don't like to add boost to my bass, hence this option is currently disabled in my setup. I rather tune the bass (subwoofer) at the output level module.

In addition to the boost, the Helix has a SubXpander option that adds subharmonic tones to the fundamental bass. When I tried this feature, the bass sounded bloated and too distorted. I didn't like this option. This may be a good option for an SPL system. A similar feature to SubXpander is not available in the Audison.

The Audison has the capability, however, to boost the subwoofer frequencies and the woofer frequencies separately.

EDIT (JUN 26 2021):

As I'm learning more about the Helix capabilities, come to find out that the Audison and Helix bass boosting capabilities are very different. The Helix dynamic bass enhancement feature is volume dependent, while the Audison is not. The Helix's dynamic bass enhancement provides a huge advantage in my setup, as I was struggling to set a good bass volume at lower volumes. This feature helps establish the right amount of bass output at different volume levels, once you configure the output level and tune the subwoofer, and it really works well. It only boost the bass at lower volumes so that you don't lose it. 

Therefore, I have now enabled this function, with the "Auto Boost Frequency Mode" with a gain of 6dB. This means that the bass gain will be adjusted from 0 to 6dB depending on volume. With this feature, now I don't have to adjust the tone at the PCM at lower volumes. 

Helix Bass Processing screen:









Audison Bass Boost screen:










Center Processing:

You'll find the "RealCenter" option under the FX module. As with the bass processing, this option is only available when Virtual Processing is active and you have assigned the center virtual channel to the center channel output. When RealCenter option is active, you get a nice phenomenon manifesting in that center channel. Only the signal that is exactly the same in the Left and Right digital input will get routed to the center channel (this is supposedly the monoaural information). When played alone, the center channel sounds strange, like increasing and decreasing volume quickly. Increasing when voice is played, decreasing when other information is played, but you can still hear some. Is like hearing a modulating sound. However, when blended with the L/R channels, the sound is just amazing. It blends really well, and the center channel truly becomes what is intended to be, a center channel playing mostly voice without interfering with the sound stage. This option is currently active in my setup.

The ClarityXpander enhances the high frequencies in the center channel. I have enabled this option to add that crisp sound to the center channel.










There is no similar feature in the Audison.


Front Processing:

You'll find the StageXpander option under the FX module. As with the other effects, this option is only available when Virtual Processing is active and you have assigned the front virtual channels to the front channel outputs (tweeters, midranges and woofers). When active, the StageXpander enlarges the sound stage of the front, for a wider stereo panorama. You can select the intensity of the feature. I currently have StageXpander active in my setup with medium intensity.

When combined with RealCenter, the StageXpander creates a nice ambiance and a true feeling of a larger stage.

The ClarityXpander is a similar feature as in the Center Processing. It highlights the high frequencies to create a sense of sound brightness. But as with Center Processing, this feature is not active in my setup. The sound is crisp enough as it is, with the Audiofrogs putting out a very crisp sound.











There is no similar feature in the Audison.


----------



## santirx

*Comparison of the Audison AP F8.9 vs the Audiotec Fischer Helix V Twelve - PART 4: Additional Capabilities*

The Helix sports a dedicated module to configure Phase, Polarity and Time Delay. There are several options you can choose from, but in addition, there is an Automatic Time Measurement option. To use this option, you'll be required to play a specific track in your audio system (this track is available as part of the software), and with a calibrated mic connected to your computer, you activate this function. I have not used this yet, but I do plan on using it in the future. This feature is supposed to automatically measure the distance of each channel (speaker) and automatically configure your delays.










Another feature, which I have talked about in previous posts, is the Real Time Analyzer. This works in many respects like REW, but automatically modifies your curves to match reference curve. In this case, and as you can see in the graph below, I input the Harman curve for reference. For this, you need to play the uncorrelated pink noise in your sound system, which is also part of the Helix software (you'll need to burn into a CD or another media). When you activate autoset, it will automatically tune your system. It actually does a pretty good job at tuning your system.



















Auto tune in action:









These are features only present in the Helix amplifier.


----------



## santirx

*Comparison of the Audison AP F8.9 vs the Audiotec Fischer Helix V Twelve - Parting Thoughts*

Obviously, the Helix V Twelve and the Audison AP F8.9 are very different amplifiers, therefore, comparing them head to head is a bit unfair. A more fair comparison would had been with the Helix V Eight. But the only difference that I know of between the V Eight and the V Twelve are the number of amplified channels.

There is also a significant cost difference between the V Twelve and the AP F8.9 and that is something to consider.

The Audison is a very good amplifier. It does a good job for the price, and with patience you can tune it to sound great. There were times, while I was waiting for the Helix, that I was questioning if I should go through with the change given how good it sound.

The Helix, however, is a great amplifier and a better fit for my application. The sound is extraordinary. But is also a bigger and more expensive amplifier. You’ll have to consider these two factors.

The V Eight is closer in price and size to the Audison.

The Helix requires additional steps to setup, but I found it to be more robust, structured and intuitive.

As for the tuning, I'm not sure if this was influenced by the learning curve, which was all with the Audison, but when I did the setup in the Helix, it was really a breeze to tune. It felt orders of magnitude easier than with the Audison. The auto-tune feature of the Helix was a great start. The Audison does have an auto tune feature as well but requires additional, very expensive, hardware usually owned by professional installers.

In addition, the Helix has a lot of setup and configuration options that the Audison doesn't. This doesn’t mean that the Audison should have these options either. Both Helix and Audison have robust hardware technology embedded.

The Audison is a better option if you need to keep the OEM amplifier, with its DE-EQ - De Equalization technology, which is a function that will “flatten” any equalization applied by default by OEM sources. In addition, USS technology allows it to work with head-units featuring the “speaker load detection” circuit. The Audison is also the only amplifier of the two that allows you to bridge channels, therefore, if that is a requirement, then the Audison is the way to go. The Audison also have 7 pre-configured setups, which were created for specific applications, and you select those using a dial on the side of the amplifier.

A few of the quirks and annoyances...

For the Audison:
1. the lack of effects and options
2. only two active crossover filter models available with limited slope availability
3. the tuning interface is very subpar and hard to use
4. lack of volume (gain) setup for each individual memory preset.

For the Helix:
1. The WiFi Control connectivity is very inconsistent
2. Output level sliders are embedded in the channels (would had been good to have all output levels separate and more accessible - this is a very minor annoyance)
3. The inability to select a single speaker (muting the rest of them) with a single click
4. Size, made it more difficult to install and required a special plate made.

I'll continue to expand this list as I continue to gain more experience with the Helix.

In conclusion, I believe the Helix V Twelve is a better "all-around" amplifier for my specific application. The ability to provide each of my speaker its own amplified channel makes a great deal of difference. With the more user-friendly interface and the sheer number of configuration options, the Helix V Tweve is the amplifier to pick, if you have the additional cash available.

The Audison AP F8.9 is a great contender, and the better option if you need to keep OEM amplifier or bridge channels, and although I liked how I was able to configure and tune the system with it, if I have to do it again I would go with the Helix V Eight. But again, I don’t want to minimize the Audison, which in my opinion is very good as well and has some capabilities that the Helix doesn’t have. Is just a matter of what you need and what is best for your own application.


----------



## santirx

About the Tuning with REW

I had been using a CD with the uncorrelated pink noise which I burned with the Helix provided files. But, the fact of the matter is that I never use my CD Player to play any music. I use my phone all the time.

It occurred to me that I should do the tuning with the audio source (the phone), rather than the orthogonal tuning with the CD I had been doing.

I saved the CD tuning in memory 1.

With that in mind, I transferred the uncorrelated pink noise mp3 file to the Music library of my phone and took a few measurement. It was slightly off, lower in the 1-1.2KHz range and higher in the 4-5KHz range, which I corrected. Saved this configuration in memory 2.

I did the same with AUX Wireless and this was very off at lower frequencies. Corrected. Saved in memory 3.

This improved audio considerably, even for AUX input.

Maybe this is very obvious for the more experienced people here… but… in any case… there it is…


----------



## santirx

Helix Dynamic Bass Enhancer:

I edited my review of the Helix dynamic bass enhancer in post # 186.

From my experience with the Audison, I made an assumption that it would work the same. Boosting the bass all across the specified frequency.

What I didn’t realize immediately was that in the Helix, the dynamic bass enhancer is not really a bass boost, but a volume-dependent bass enhancer.

And why is that important to me?

Well, I spent tons of time tuning the bass in the Audison so that it was somewhat decent across different levels of volume.

The problem is that low frequency output is not proportional to the volume. At higher volumes, the bass is too loud, and at lower volumes, you barely hear it. Therefore, one is forced in certain circumstances to adjust the bass tone when changing volume level.

In the Audison, this phenomenon is amplified with the bass booster.

On the other hand, in the Helix, the dynamic bass enhancer makes the bass output level more linear and proportional across different volume levels.

This is the beauty of this option, which will now remain enabled in my system. I checked the “Auto Boost Frequency Mode” with 6dB Gain. With these settings, I was able to lower the subwoofer output level to compensate.










The bass now feels present and strong at lower volumes, and it doesn’t feel overwhelming at higher volumes. No need for me to adjust the tone anymore.

The design of the Helix had been well thought out. It is truly an excellent choice.

As I continue to learn more, I’ll continue to add and/or edit my review.


----------



## santirx

Helix Device Configuration Menu (DCM):

Today, I had been learning about, and working with, some DCM features. Specifically the Source Volume Control.










When this option in DCM in enabled (screenshot above), these gain input fields appear in your I/O module screen near each of your inputs (highlighted in screenshot below). You can actually change the gain for each of the sources, if they differ significantly, up to 10dB in 0.1dB increment.










While playing with this feature, I found out that, not only can you adjust the volume/gain of your different inputs, but you can also specify different gains/volumes for each of the inputs in each configuration saved in memory. In my case, since I only use the Digital Input, I can have different gains/volume levels for each saved configuration in memory.

This finding is particularly relevant and advantageous for my application. Why? Because when I feed the audio via the Head Unit (PCM) AUX, the volume is significantly reduced when compared to the audio fed via the Head Unit iPod input. To a point that some older songs (recorded at a lower volume) will play at a low volume even if the head unit volume is at its max.

Since I created a configuration file for my Head Unit AUX input, I used this feature to increase the volume/gain in the Digital Input about 8dB. Now the Head Unit AUX input basically matches the Head Unit iPod input, when set to their corresponding configuration files in the Helix.

This is yet another very convenient feature found in the Helix.


----------



## santirx

In preparation to my upcoming installation of the Audiotec-Fischer Conductor, I upgraded the DSP-Tool to latest version 4.75a. I also updated the Helix V Twelve ACO firmware to version 12.










The upgrade is required to add the Conductor support, with the following addition to the DCM menu:










It was a bit unnerving, as the Helix resets to factory settings, erasing all configuration. However, when loading configuration files, you are asked if you want to upload not only tuning information, but also other DCM setup and ACO configuration. Basically after you confirm the upload of all setup, it goes back to your original setup.

This upgrade also seems to have solved the WiFi connectivity issue. I tested connection multiple times, and it connected every time. With previous DSP-Tool version 4.73b, it was a hit and miss.

The reason I decided to acquire the conductor is because my phone WiFi connection is already busy with CarPlay and I can‘t practically use the WiFi Control app to modify Helix, especially loading different configuration files from memory. I’ll be able to do this with the Conductor.

I’m thinking about installing the conductor here… using a 3D printed plate attachment that will cover the hole. Hopefully will look factory-like…










Of course, I’ll write about the Conductor installation if I’m successful, and provide some reviews.


----------



## DaveG

Is the conductor compatible with the helix WiFi module?

Edit* I assume your talking about the Helix WiFi module.


----------



## santirx

DaveG said:


> Is the conductor compatible with the helix WiFi module?
> 
> Edit* I assume your talking about the Helix WiFi module.


Is not (as stated in the product description). However, I’m not using the WiFi Control with the iPhone App. I only use it for tuning.

I’m actually hoping that I can connect the Conductor to the other side of the WiFi Control and it continues to work for tuning, but if not, then my plan would be to swap the connection to the WiFi Control for tuning only, then swap the connection to the Conductor for normal use. That’s the preliminary plan.

I’ll see how this works, and how convenient/inconvenient it is…. Then provide reviews.


----------



## SiW80

Can the wifi controller stream audio or control only?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## santirx

SiW80 said:


> Can the wifi controller stream audio or control only?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Control only. You can tune through this control, wireless. And with the iPhone app, you can modify tone, change memory channel, etc…. 

No audio streaming.

There is a Bluetooth module you can install in some Helix amplifiers, maybe other Audiotec-Fischer amps, that add that capability to stream directly via Bluetooth.


----------



## santirx

Testing completed. The conductor can’t be connected to the other pig-tail end of the WiFi Control. It generates an error. So, WiFi can still be used, but the Conductor doesn’t make it past the WiFi control. I have to connect directly.

As I said, I’ll probably still install it and swap between the WiFi Control and Conductor when necessary. I just need to see if it is too much of an inconvenience.










Alternatively, I can bring a USB cable from the Helix to my center console for tuning purposes… and get rid of the WIFI Control all together.

The button itself has this plastic feeling to it, a bit of cheap plastic feeling, but nice functionality.


----------



## santirx

This is the first try with 3D printed plate…. Need to make some adjustments, but this is the idea…










Second iteration, a bit too large at the bottom, but taking nice shape:










Currently printing a 3rd prototype.


----------



## santirx

Final prototype. Fit like a glove. I think I need to do the final version with a matte black filament so that it blends better, but it does look factory-like…. Love it!


----------



## MythosDreamLab

Beam me up Scotty......

My count might be off but I'm thinking that new Controller will be the 30th button in that area! 

Any buttons on the dash?


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## santirx

MythosDreamLab said:


> Beam me up Scotty......
> 
> My count might be off but I'm thinking that new Controller will be the 30th button in that area!
> 
> Any buttons on the dash?


Oh yeah! Tons of buttons. It wouldn’t be a Porsche otherwise…


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## santirx

I finished the Conductor installation. Obviously running the cable was challenging. And obviously had to disconnect the WiFi Control. I now begin the testing phase:

I changed the LED color of the main volume to match the red color of the rest of the LEDs in my Macan buttons.



















SubWoofer Volume:









Rear Attenuation (I’ll probably change this color because it looks too similar to presets (blue will make sense):











Memory Presets:










I’m printing a final plate in high resolution, which I will treat and paint to match the rest of the plastic…

Finding it very convenient so far…


This was, however, where I had my phone holder. I designed a phone holder that will sit below the armrest and printed it. I’m testing it now as well:





























I can actually take my phone out and insert it with the armrest down. Very cool…


----------



## jheat2500

Your designs are top notch! I really love the way everything integrates as if it was from the factory, great job.


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## santirx

This is the latest design for the plate. I incorporated the Porsche Logo letters embossed in the extrusion (they are recessed). Since these letters didn’t exist in a way I can extrude (emboss) them to the design, I had to overlay a drawing of the letters and draw the letters one by one in the model. The result is fantastic…










Printed model:










Used 120 and 400 grit sand paper to smooth surface:










Applied Primer Filler, allowed to dry and sanded with 800 and 1500 grit sandpaper:










First coat of flat black paint:










I didn’t like the finish, so waited for drying, then sanded again with 800 and 1500 grit sandpaper. Then repainted to a better finish.










Can’t wait to see it in place. Will leave drying for a few hours, then attempt to install.


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## diy.phil

Awesome work here santirx ! Loving everything you do!


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## THX0849

Wow! Don't have the vehicle but been following since first post (Porsche lover since childhood). And your work and attention to detail are outstanding! Keep it coming living how this is turning out. That Conductor integration is gorgeous. How are you liking the Conductor, been contemplating getting one myself. 

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## santirx

Final installation. I’m just amazed at how well it came out and how good it blends with everything else. Really factory-like…


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## MythosDreamLab

Yep, looks awesome...!


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## santirx

3D Printing Rookie Mistake…

I printed my Conductor trim plate with PLA filament… mistake.

I found the piece warped after the car spend the day under the sun. PLA do not handle high temperatures well. You can see the warped plate in the photo below…











After tons of research, I found that polycarbonate can handle twice the temperature as PLA, but is more difficult to work with. Higher nozzle and bed temperature required, and also I had to buy a tent, so that the area could remain warm while printing…











After a lot of tries, I was able to successfully print a plate. This one below is already sanded, primed and painted…










Also, purchased LVP Refinisher paint (Porsche Black) for interiors, to finish the piece.





























The black is not quite the same as the emergency brake trim, but good enough…. Let’s see how it holds in high temperature.


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## lashlee

That's killer!! Excellent job.


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## santirx

Latest version of the iPhone holder under armrest design…










This piece (very small in reality) goes on the back side of the iPhone Holder, and attaches with screws. This is a cable lock, to keep cable and connector in place.










You can see the cable lock below. The circular “thing” is actually a wireless charger. I use that as an alternative to continue to charge the phone while in AUX wireless. I just don’t push the phone all the way in. Pushing all the way in will engage the iPhone cable and send audio and charge through cable. The angle under the armrest is necessary so that I can slide the phone in and out. Otherwise, it will collide with the lower side when close.

You can also see the top side extending. These two extensions now rest on the rubber bumpers, raising the armrest enough for the phone to slide freely.










You can see from the side that the armrest is not raised that much, at least not as much to be noticeable, but enough for me to be able to slide the phone in and out…










Here you can see the sides resting on the rubber bumpers…



















See video of how I can slide in and take out the phone without having to open the armrest:


__
https://flic.kr/p/2mbnurJ


By the way, this is how the center console looked before I installed the Conductor and the new iPhone holder:










This is the same phone wireless charger you see on the bottom of the new holder…


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## DaveG

Slick AF! I don’t know what you do in your day job but you have true fabrication talent! You do some of the coolest stuff that comes out perfect! Very nice and so much cleaner. Just awesome!


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## santirx

@DaveG, Thanks. I’m not sure about skills, but what I do have is an almost OCD with cables and wires and things that look out of place. I want everything to look as factory as possible, like is made for it. You could see that obsession as well with my home theater installation and all my TVs. No wires are anywhere to be seen… all equipment is in a remote closet, etc… designed like that when I had the house built.

BTW… I’m a mechanical engineer, hence, design comes natural….


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## santirx

I’m planning to do a detailed review on the Conductor soon…. It is a little nice device.

In the meantime, I wanted to recommend HC Car Audio, where I purchased the A-F Conductor from. They are a small business, starting up, and AB provides fast shipping and good communication. They had the Conductor available when it was barely or not available to buy locally in the US…. Good prices.









HC car audio | eBay Stores






www.ebay.com


----------



## santirx

The Conductor (Review):

First, before using the conductor - as I have stated before - the Helix amplifier needs to be updated with the latest firmware version (4.75). This update will add the conductor setup module within the DCM screen.

I had been using the conductor for a couple of weeks, and I can say that is a very convenient and “mostly” inconspicuous (it blends well) device.











I have setup the conductor to control (1) main volume; (2) subwoofer volume; (3) rear attenuation; (4) preset selection.

I’m finding myself leaving the main volume at the higher level and controlling the system volume from my steering wheel (more convenient). I also set the rear attenuation to minimum level and mostly left it there.

I’m actually using the subwoofer volume and the preset selection the most. It is very convenient to have these available. I also continue to discover ways to use the preset selection.

It is very difficult to remember what 12 different presets do, but since I have two inputs (iPod and AUX), I’m duplicating presets for both iPod and AUX, which leaves me with 2 inputs and basically 6 presets.

I’m using the presets to activate/deactivate FX features. I even left one of the presets as an “Experimental” preset, where I’m doing things like assigning front virtual channel to the rear door speakers to see how adding front effects to the rear as well affect the staging. I also have one of the presets configured with SubXpander, which if carefully used, can add a different and very deep dimension to the music in many instances.

The ability to change these presets and slightly adjust the subwoofer, is worth the investment in my view. I have basically left the WIFI Control disconnected, giving preference to the Conductor. I’m actually doing my tuning as I did before with the Audison, with a USB cable.

The screenshot below shows my setup.

Automatic switch back to main menu is disabled, which means that when you press the knob and change to a different mode, it stays there until pressed again. You have the option to set it up to go back to main menu after 5 seconds. I found that setting inconvenient, especially when changing presets.

As I only have one signal input (digital) I left the “Activate Signal Input selection menu” disabled. If you activate it, then the conductor adds a mode to select input.

The “Activate Sound Setup selection menu” is selected, and this adds the mode to select the presets.

“Activate Bluetooth Playback control menu” can be activated if you have a Bluetooth module in the amplifier and will provide ability to control playback.

The Volume window will provide you with the ability to setup up to 4 volumes.

Volume 1 is set to Master Volume (red LED). When the car is turned on, the conductor defaults to this volume.










Volume 2 is assigned to Subwoofer Volume:










Volume 3 is the rear attenuation, with Volume 4 disabled.










In conclusion, the Conductor is a very convenient device. The ability to have quick access to modify certain parameter without having to go into tuning screen or opening your iPhone for the WIFI control is a good compromise. The device can be mounted in a way that blends well with the rest of the car interior. I like the way you can change LED colors to identify which mode you are in and intensity, which I used to match the rest of the LEDs in my car.

The human brain can only effectively remember 3 settings. More than that is still possible, but more difficult. This is the only flaw I find with the Conductor, that you have to remember more than 3 settings…. But with more use, you can get used to it.

I have found good use for this device and will remain installed for the foreseeable future.


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## santirx

Part 10.1: PCM3.1 Head Unit CarPlay Module Reboot

I ordered an updated version of a CarPlay Module adapter for my PCM3.1 head unit. This upgraded version consist only of an electronic board that is installed inside the PCM, like with the previous module I had, but without the need for the external module box and the dummy AUX plug. The claimed better audio, so I decided to give it a try.









240.59US $ 35% OFF|Ebilaen Wireless Carplay Module Box For Porsche Panamera Cayenne Macan Cayman Boxster 911 718 Pcm 3.1 Android Auto - Car Multimedia Player - AliExpress


Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com




www.aliexpress.com





Took out the old board, installed the new one over the same stands… No issues. Connecting wires and passing them through holes, no concerns.

You can see the old board from RealMedia or JoyeAuto here (which requires an external module box):










You can see the new Ebilaen board in the photo (electronics are a bit busier than previous board and DO NOT require external module box):











Overall installation wasn’t without issues, but got everything installed…

Now, for the review….

The improvements over the older module:

1. Speed of readiness. With the older module, I had to wait for about 10 seconds before the system recognize my phone and hence CarPlay. With Ebilaen is basically instantaneous.

2. Audio: Audio improvement with Ebilaen is nominal, but it is improved. I still need to tune it, but sound is not as attenuated. But still not as good as with the direct iPod input.

3. Response: It seems that Ebilaen is more responsive and quick. When you change from AUX to iPod and back, it is very responsive.

4. Connection: so far, connection had been solid with Ebilaen. No dropped connection so far.

5. Compact: the installation is cleaner with Ebilaen. Just the board and some wiring vs board, module, wiring and dummy connector with Joye.

6. User Interface: much improved over older module. Setup is easier.

7. The system comes up so quickly when I turn the car on, that I could leave my phone connected and I would not have to do the long process of disconnecting and re-connecting the iPhone, like I had to do with the Joye system.

8. The microphone provided is OEM, which goes into the slot where the OEM mic would go if you order your Macan with voice recognition. If you already have voice recognition, you can select an option in the setup to make it work with then factory mic. This is a huge advantage to ensure a factory-like stealthy install.

The Quirks (so far):

1. When in iPod mode and using CarPlay over WiFi, I lose the ability to control volume with the head unit volume knob. However, the steering wheel volume knob works well. Fortunately, this is not an issue, as I have both the steering wheel knob and the Helix Conductor to control volume. I think this is due to the fact that the Ebilaen module takes control of the head unit volume control for CarPlay and it wants to control CarPlay volume when you are actually with the iPod.

2. Related to item # 1, when I connect through AUX, then I can control the volume in the head unit, but is different than everywhere else. The volume intensity is maximized by the steering wheel volume control, and the head unit can’t go above that max volume set by steering wheel. It can go down from there, but not up. It basically disconnects the two volume controls from each other. Hence why I lose control when in iPod. But don’t despair, everything goes back to normal when you get out of CarPlay. The only benefit with this is that it display a volume bar that goes from 0 to 40 (if that can be considered a benefit).

3. When I receive a call when connected to CarPlay and accept the call using the steering wheel button, it goes immediately to HOLD. I have to press the button again to get out of HOLD and then the person calling can hear me. This is a bit annoying.

4. The back button in the steering wheel controls both the Multi-Function Display (MFD) and the Apple CarPlay at the same time. When navigating the MFD, you can see the CarPlay display going back and forth, taking you off where you left it. It would be good to separate the steering wheel back control from Apple CarPlay so that it doesn’t affect it.

As for how I’m using it, I’m using it the same way as I was using the older module module. Audio through iPod and displaying CarPlay wireless. Still no audio from GPS apps (other than Google Maps).

Another quirk I was able to resolve was the provided microphone for Siri not working. I had to install the provided microphone, as my Macan didn’t have voice recognition. I solved that upgrading the Ebilaen module to the latest version. Reports from others that have voice recognition is that they were able to make the OEM mic already installed work by just selecting the option in setup.


__
https://flic.kr/p/2mdXniz

The other quirks remained after the upgrade.

There is a member at Rennlist that is working on creating a firmware update to resolve many of these quirks and trying to resolve the audio issues. He was successful at modifying the firmware of prior modules.

More to come on this, as I continue to learn and experience it.

What I can say for sure is that this is the last upgrade I make on my head unit…. And the Ebilaen module, with all its quirks, is a better module than the older generation.


----------



## santirx

AUTOMATIC TIME MEASUREMENT (ATM) - HELIX V TWELVE:

Recently, I started to question my work around time alignment, therefore, I decided to tinker with the Automatic Time Measurement function of the Helix V Twelve today.

I made a video of the process.

Steps: Automatic Time Measurement (ATM)

It starts by downloading the “timeMeasurementClick” soundtrack from the Helix menu, and create a CD or export to the phone.
Setup the microphone at 90 degrees at head level (where you would sit to listen).
Measure distance in cm between the left midrange speaker (if your car is driven from the left) and the microphone.
In the Helix DSP PC Tool, select “Time“ from top menu.
Within that screen, click on the ”ATM - Automatic Time Measurement” button.
You’ll get to a Quick Start Guide, which have all instructions (6 steps). Then click “Go to Measurement”.
On the next screen, select microphone and make sure that the bar hits the “Good” range. Increase volume if necessary.
Enter Distance or Delay Mode. Enter distance to reference channel in centimeters.
Click “Start”
Process will run automatically.
You’ll get a final screen where you can compare before and after, and will have the option to repeat the process, discard it or save it.
The system must be re-tuned afterwards.

VIDEO:

__
https://flic.kr/p/2meXdsV

Below are my results:

BEFORE:









AFTER:









Summarized Table here:









I was very impressed with how close the distance was for some drivers when comparing manual and automatic measurements, but there were some significant differences for others. There is a significant difference between time delays for manual and automatic measurements, probably due to the significant difference in my measurement of the subwoofer, which is normalized to 0.

The sound stage is much improved in my opinion. Sound has a better spread and voice sound from center channel is more defined with the RealCenter option. Even output level seemed to increase, even though I didn’t alter any of the driver’s output level.

I believe the ATM does a great job at accounting for how sound actually reaches the listener, with barriers, angles and everything else that is placed between the driver speaker and the listener.


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## youlikeanh

awesome build!

I sent you a pm


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## santirx

IN MEMORY OF @Ge0:

I met Ge0 in the Macan Forum. He quickly named me his Padawan. He guided me through my audio upgrade, all the way. He was very patient, unselfish and kind “in his own Ge0 way”. I even sent him a bottle of wine to thank him for all the knowledge and wisdom he shared with me. He was well known in my family, as I talked about some of the things Ge0 would say to me with my wife. So much so that when I told my wife of his passing, she shed a few tears.

I’ll always remember my dear friend, and I’m very sad to see him go so young. My thoughts and prayers are with his family.

This is his most memorable post at the Macan Forum: The long and involved process of upgrading my 2016 Macan...

Rest in Peace buddy!


----------



## oekundar

santirx said:


> IN MEMORY OF @Ge0:
> 
> I met Ge0 in the Macan Forum. He quickly named me his Padawan. He guided me through my audio upgrade, all the way. He was very patient, unselfish and kind “in his own Ge0 way”. I even sent him a bottle of wine to thank him for all the knowledge and wisdom he shared with me. He was well known in my family, as I talked about some of the things Ge0 would say to me with my wife. So much so that when I told my wife of his passing, she shed a few tears.
> 
> I’ll always remember my dear friend, and I’m very sad to see him go so young. My thoughts and prayers are with his family.
> 
> This is his most memorable post at the Macan Forum: The long and involved process of upgrading my 2016 Macan...
> 
> Rest in Peace buddy!


I must have missed something! My heart goes out to his family!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## santirx

In preparation for the upcoming installation of the Audiofrog GB25 that I recently purchased from a kind forum member here (@SNCTMPL), I designed an adapter.

I already have an Audiofrog GB25 in center channel duty, so, I 3D printed an adapter with a small variation for the center channel, to replace a more improvised adapter I had previously made (see Part 3 of this series, page 1). The same adapter, with a small variation, will be used as an adapter for the surround speakers.

It took the initial design and then a small adjustment to get it right.

It came out really great…

I’ll be soon replacing my Audison Voce 3.5 (see Part 7 of this series, page 1) with the Audiofrog GB25 for surround duty. The quality of the Audiofrog GB series is far superior to Audison Voce in my opinion…. Hence, these were the only speakers that I still needed to replace in my car.

More to come on this later.




























I designed it in a way that I could slide inserts for the screws.










Nice recessed fit…





































Very nice fit overall…


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## SNCTMPL

Well you definitely are not going to need the extra adapters I put in the box.😂

Those are really nice.


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## santirx

SNCTMPL said:


> Well you definitely are not going to need the extra adapters I put in the box.😂
> 
> Those are really nice.


Yes, Audiofrog has one of the most complete array of mounting adapter options in my opinion. Is one of the things I like about them. In my case, since I’m installing these in OEM locations, some of the hardware is not useful. Some is, though.


----------



## santirx

PART 7.1: SURROUNDS REBOOT

As stated in previous post, I bought a pair of Audiofrog GB25 to replace the Audison Voce 3.0 I had installed in surround duty. These were replaced today and with this, I have taken out the last of the Audison speakers from my car. 

Audison Voce are very good drivers, but there is something about the clarity and fidelity of the Audiofrog GB series that I just love. 

In photos below, you can compare the Audison Voce 3.0 to the left, and the Audiofrog GB25 to the right.










The frogs are a bit taller, but fit the application. 




















These are the 3D printed adapters, which are more robust than the ones I fabricated for the Audison.










Audison Voce 3.0 on the right and Audiofrog GB25 on the left. In the process of mounting them…. The 3D printed adapter worked very well…










Audiofrog GB25 mounted on trims…. Ready for final installation.



















I finalized the installation, and preliminary results are great. Audio from surround position is much improved and I can increase output and frequency range, and play with those parameters. The Audison were a bit hidden from the output level perspective, as they were not at par with the rest of the speakers I had.


----------



## SNCTMPL

Nice, I’m glad you like them.


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## santirx

Some thoughts on setup and tuning

After playing and tinkering with my system for more than a year, in all its forms and iterations, not only have I learned a lot about the subject, but realized how much of the process is artisanal rather than science. The learnings came in many forms, from just testing different combinations and parameters, tunings and setups, in addition to all the information and help in this and many other forums and vendor websites.

I feel I could write a book now that could be titled "_Car Audio Setup and Tuning for the Rest of U_s"... or "_Car Audio Setup and Tuning for Dummies_"... like me.

A little bit of story... During my initial installations, and with my rush to get to finish, I either didn't execute basic setup steps or did them superficially. I wanted to get to the tuning process as quickly as possible. This led to a lot of frustration with sound, and in some instances, unnecessarily changing speakers that may otherwise sound good should the system was setup appropriately.

I came to the realization that these initial setup steps were as important, or maybe more, than the tuning process. There is certain discipline to follow in the process and steps can’t be skipped. Here are some thoughts on those steps:

*Setting up the time delays*: I knew this was important, and did it using different methods. Using a measurement tape to measure the distance between speaker and listening position was my preferred method. However, with the Helix, there is the function to setup time delays, which I described earlier in my log.
*Setting up the output level for individual speakers*: My earlier implementation of this one was very haphazard. Mostly the output of same class speakers was at same level. I didn't measure. I came to realize how important was to measure output level with a microphone and a simple dB meter device from listening position and ensuring that both speakers in same class (I.e. midranges) were at the same measurement from listening position. Their output level, for say the midranges, is now different but they produce the same intensity at listening position. I came to realize that this is, in my opinion, one of the most important steps in setup. For this, I used the UMIK microphone and opened the dB meter module of REW. With the microphone pointing up in listening position, I muted all speakers except the one of interest in the L side and recorded the dB value. Then I muted that speaker and unmute the R side speaker and adjusted output level until it matched the dB level of the L speaker.

Then, fine-tuning the setup was the next step. It started with addressing the subwoofer. With my initial setup, I had to cut-off my subwoofer at 35Hz with 24dB/Oct slope to ensure a decent sound. I finally decided to buy a cheap oscilloscope and tested output of sub amplifier at 50Hz-0dB. I realized that I needed to change the voltage sensitivity setting from High (1.5V) to Med (3V) in my sub amplifier. With that adjustment, I was able to set the freq cutoff (HPF) at 20Hz with a 42dB/Oct slope and the overall quality of the bass improved significantly. Not only more strong and far deeper bass, but smoother and higher quality.

Then, I focused on the rear. Tried rear differential, normal stereo, higher output level, lower output level, etc... and nothing seem to bring the system together. At the suggestion of some members of this forum, I tried the normal stereo approach, but with a time delay of 15 to 20ms. The approach is actually the following:


Tune the front speakers to Harman Curve (muted rear speakers for this).
Although not required, I muted front speakers and unmuted rear speakers and tuned rear to Harman.
Playing sound through all speakers, increase the volume (output level) of the rear speakers until you can hear them. Staging will move to the rear a little bit.
Increase the delay in rear speakers until you can hear the staging moving to the front again.
Repeat the process until you are at 15 to 20ms delay.
Then... perfection... leave it there.
I wish I knew all this last year when I started this process. But, it was a good journey of experiences and learning, for someone that had never done this before until last year.

Maybe I'll write a book. Or maybe I'll just start a new thread "_Car Audio Setup and Tuning for Dummies__"_ and maybe a few of us can write it together...


----------



## Stycker

Great Journey you have been on. The biggest lesson I learned in tuning is with crossovers. Play speakers first in the raw with crossovers only set for protection. Set crossovers for the best passband. Also crossovers do not have to match in frequency or type for electrical settings left and right. Only the accoustical crossover matters. I got lucky as my electrical and accoustical are very close.


----------



## santirx

Stycker said:


> Great Journey you have been on. The biggest lesson I learned in tuning is with crossovers. Play speakers first in the raw with crossovers only set for protection. Set crossovers for the best passband. Also crossovers do not have to match in frequency or type for electrical settings left and right. Only the accoustical crossover matters. I got lucky as my electrical and accoustical are very close.


Yes, you are correct. Crossovers needs to be setup even before the steps I laid out. Finding out the right crossover point is critical, in combination with the crossover filter and slope. Many elements go into that, but it starts with driver capabilities. Protecting the tweeters, as you mention, from resonant frequencies. Etc…

I explored with a combination of active/passive setup to a full active setup (like the one I have now). Good point!

I played a lot with different crossover points, filters, slopes to ensure it sounds good to my ear. More subjectivity on this, although you can obviously detect issues with REW at crossover points and make your crossover decisions based on that as well.


----------



## santirx

Electrical Circuit:

One aspect that I have not talked about in my log is the design and installation of the electrical circuit to power the amplifiers.

Is all summarized in the following diagram, which contains all elements and calculations used to power my Helix V Twelve, the Audison AP1D sub amplifier and the Toro MRx4 which is a small 4 channel amplifier from which I’m using a single channel to power the center channel.










One of the advantages I had in my Macan is that the battery is located in the trunk, very close to the location of the amplifiers. This influenced the size of the wires used.

Some of the assumptions in calculations: V=12.8 (which is somewhat conservative) and Efficiency = 80% (a good approximation).

As you can see in the diagram, I used a 2 AWG wire from the battery to my distribution blocks, and 8 AWG to the amplifiers. I didn’t need to run 8 AWG to the Toro, probably a 10 or 12 AWG would had been sufficient, but ran 8 AWG for convenience.

In all honesty, I think that my circuit is a bit overkill with the way I use my system, but bigger is better. For example, the Helix V Twelve have two 30A fuses embedded in the amplifier, which I sized for 80A with wire and circuit fuse and the Audison AP1D has a 30A embedded fuse, which I size for 60A wire/fuse.

The main fuse is 150A installed as close to the battery as possible in the 2 AWG wire.

Here are some photos of the installation:














































Use of ferrules on these wires is mandatory in my opinion. Therefore, I used ferrules for all my connections…

Ruikarhop 200PCS (AWG 8 6 4 2) 2-8 Gauge Wire Ferrules Kits Silver Plated Copper Crimp Connector Non Insulated Ferrules Pin Cord End Terminal Ruikarhop 200PCS (AWG 8 6 4 2) 2-8 Gauge Wire Ferrules Kits Silver Plated Copper Crimp Connector Non Insulated Ferrules Pin Cord End Terminal: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific


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## Stycker

Do the unused channels from the Toro amp need resistance or can you simply leave them empty and untapped? Super nice build BTW. Somebody once told me this can hurt the amp but I really don't know about that.


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## santirx

Stycker said:


> Do the unused channels from the Toro amp need resistance or can you simply leave them empty and untapped? Super nice build BTW. Somebody once told me this can hurt the amp but I really don't know about that.


That’s a good question. They are not connected. I didn’t know about that, nor considered this an issue. It would be good to find out more about this, but I’m not very concerned. It‘s been working well.

UPDATE: I read a little bit on the subject and is not necessary because there is no input signal going to these unused outputs. The way I set it up, I have an input signal in channel # 1 outputting through channel 1.

Input 1:









To Outrput 1:


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## Stycker

That makes sense


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## santirx

3D Printer Files (for reference):

Porsche Macan - Audiofrog Speaker Adapters: Audiofrog GB Series Adapters - Porsche Macan by Santimacan
1. Front Door GB40 Adapter
2. Center Channel GB25 Adapter
3. Rear Door GB15 Adapter
4. Surround GB25 Adapter

Porsche Macan - iPhone 13 Pro Max under armrest holder: Porsche Macan iPhone 13 Pro Max Holder - under armrest by Santimacan


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## lashlee

What material are you using to print your adapters?


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## santirx

lashlee said:


> What material are you using to print your adapters?


Polycarbonate.

You don’t want to use PLA for automotive applications. It will deform in high temperature. Polycarbonate is very good for automotive applications.


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## Chris_B25

@santirx This is an amazing build. I’ve been watching in the background for a while but now ready to get started on my Panamera. The Bose amp for mine appears to be the same part # as a 2015 Macan so I’m hoping to copy some of your work. 
any chance you know what the limits are for the OE speaker wires?


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## oekundar

Chris_B25 said:


> @santirx This is an amazing build. I’ve been watching in the background for a while but now ready to get started on my Panamera. The Bose amp for mine appears to be the same part # as a 2015 Macan so I’m hoping to copy some of your work.
> any chance you know what the limits are for the OE speaker wires?


Do it so I can leverage for my Panny


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## santirx

Chris_B25 said:


> @santirx This is an amazing build. I’ve been watching in the background for a while but now ready to get started on my Panamera. The Bose amp for mine appears to be the same part # as a 2015 Macan so I’m hoping to copy some of your work.
> any chance you know what the limits are for the OE speaker wires?


I started with this diagram below (I had Bose setup)…. Is very difficult to evaluate the capacity of existing wiring. Most of it looks like gauge 12, and the larger speakers look 10 gauge, but you can confirm.

For mine, I had five 40W channels sending signal to front midrange/tweeter (2), the rear woofer/tweeter (2) and the rear surround (1). 25W to center channel. And 80W to front door woofers. 

Currently, I’m sending 75W per channel. I’m using existing wires to power front midrange and front woofers, rear tweeters and one of the surround speakers. Sending 85W to center channel (through existing wire that I was using for 25W before)

I added additional gauge 10 wire to power rear woofers, front tweeters and one of the surround speakers. So, in essence, I reduced the load in some of the wiring existing wiring. 

Is working well.


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## Chris_B25

oekundar said:


> Do it so I can leverage for my Panny


For sure. I’ll start a build page after I spend 6 months planning, redoing, revising, and starting over from scratch!

I’ll shoot you over first pass plans.


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## santirx

Experimenting:

As you know, I designed and 3D printed a plate for the Helix Conductor…










I had been experimenting with clear polycarbonate to enhance the Porsche Logo…

Printed Porsche Logo in clear polycarbonate. Fabricated a string of 8 red LEDs… with 500-ohm resistance.










This is how it would look…




























Clear letters go a bit beyond the floor… for a 3D look…









Still, a lot of work to do…. I still have to sand the plate and paint It…. Also finish the wiring to be able to connect to 12V safely (maybe USB adapter on a 12V socket).

What you all think? the logo should be…

(1) Original embossed
(2) Illuminated

Looking for opinions…


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## Flygts

That looks really cool


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## oekundar

I like the clear and illuminated look! Well done!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gill

Non- Illuminated.
That looks like factory, subtle yet impressive. 
I opted, because you wished, else any would do out of two. Top work, professional guys shall be jealous.


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## Chris_B25

The illuminated looks great. Matches knob really well. Just my vote.


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## Chris_B25

@santirx do you happen to know what your speaker wiring diagram looked like OE? I’m seeing a 13.1 speaker setup with 8.1 channel amp. Are there OE crossovers?
Also, doesn’t the OE mic plug in to the Bose amp? What did you do with the mic?

apologies if you already addressed this, I tried searching.


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## santirx

Chris_B25 said:


> @santirx do you happen to know what your speaker wiring diagram looked like OE? I’m seeing a 13.1 speaker setup with 8.1 channel amp. Are there OE crossovers?
> Also, doesn’t the OE mic plug in to the Bose amp? What did you do with the mic?
> 
> apologies if you already addressed this, I tried searching.


@Chris_B25, diagram is shown in post 144.

In my case, there are passive crossovers at all tweeters. Tweeters have a 4.7uF capacitor, which by my calculation adds a LPF at 8500Hz with 6dB/Oct slope (1st order crossover). The front tweeters are tethered to the midranges. Midranges don’t have a HPF, meaning they are playing high frequencies until they can’t. Rear tweeters are tethered to rear door woofers, and same case, no HPF for woofers. Clearly a bad design. 

The system would improve simply by adding a proper crossover. Tweeters LPF is too high, normally you should see tweeters LPF at 3500Hz or so…. And midrange should be crossed at around 3500Hz or so with HPF. I bet some of the distortion we hear in Bose system is associated to this, in addition to center channel and surround speakers being so bad.

Adding a clearer copy here…


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## Chris_B25

Thank you very much. So you had a single channel of speaker wiring going in each of the rear doors for woofer and tweeter?

does the amp do anything for the microphone? What did you with the OE mic wiring?


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## santirx

The amp has an input for a microphone that it uses for dynamic volume control. As the noise increases in the cabin, the volume is adjusted to compensate (if you have that option activated). I didn’t wire this into my Helix amplifier.

Nothing to do with voice control. I still have the OEM voice control microphone. This microphone is also used for calls, and it works well.

Obviously with my Helix, I lost this feature, which I was not using anyway. You also lose Front/Rear balance. You keep Left/Right Balance. You lost surround option of PCM, but with setup and tuning of Helix I don’t need that.


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## j4gates

Commenting just to share appreciation for all you have posted on this thread. I have an Audi with similar challenges to overcome - but nowhere near your talent/OCD  - and reading through the content has helped inform me of a few ways to tackle the system design differently. Well-executed install and tuning effort.


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## MythosDreamLab

Chris_B25 said:


> For sure. I’ll start a build page after I spend 6 months planning, redoing, revising, and starting over from scratch!
> 
> I’ll shoot you over first pass plans.


Chris, Santrix used to run an APF8.9 if I recall correctly...


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## cv2k23

what head unit is this?


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## santirx

cv2k23 said:


> what head unit is this?


if you are referring to my head unit, it is the Porsche OEM head unit, PCM3.1


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## santirx

I realized I never posted some additional 3D printed adapters I designed for GB40 front midrange and GB25 rear tweeters… adapters for Porsche OEM locations…

Rear Tweeter adapter:







































Mid range adapter


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## santirx

Final modification to my phone holder to adapt the Apple MagCharger…


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## santirx

In my latest upgrade to the audio system, I yet another head unit upgrade in my Macan to improve capabilities of aftermarket CarPlay.

I detail the installation and review of the system in the 2 videos below:

Installation:
Mr12Volt Carplay Module Installation - PCM3.1 - Porsche Macan 2015





Review:
Mr12Volt Carplay REVIEW - PCM3.1 - Porsche Macan 2015





I talk about the features and quirks of the new system and compare them with prior two systems I had. The main driver for this installation is that there is no Digital to Analog signal conversion (like in the previous 2 systems, which caused severe signal degradation). This new system keeps signal in digital format end to end, hence preserving its quality.


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## vietjdmboi

Great read!


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## santirx

I just added another Porsche to the family… got a 2018 CPO 718 Cayman S yesterday with 4600 miles in ODO… taking delivery later this week. It has the Bose system. I need to listen to it and determine if good enough (doubtful with Bose), but it seems I may have bought myself another money pit, after finishing my full audio upgrade in my Macan. 

I’m keeping my Macan, of course.

Audio upgrade is in the list of mods for this new “to me” car. Once I’m ready… I‘ll start another thread… but wanted to share here first.


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## bbfoto

santirx said:


> I just added another Porsche to the family… got a 2018 CPO 718 Cayman S yesterday with 4600 miles in ODO… taking delivery later this week. It has the Bose system. I need to listen to it and determine if good enough (doubtful with Bose), but it seems I may have bought myself another money pit, after finishing my full audio upgrade in my Macan.
> 
> I’m keeping my Macan, of course.
> 
> Audio upgrade is in the list of mods for this new “to me” car. Once I’m ready… I‘ll start another thread… but wanted to share here first.


Congrats! Looks incredibly clean in and out, and surprisingly low miles. Shouldn't even need new tires.  Nice score!

You might have the battery load tested if it is the original, since this car sat so much and was barely driven over the course of ~4+ years, though I'd imagine it was checked and possibly replaced in the CPO inspection.


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## santirx

bbfoto said:


> Congrats! Looks incredibly clean in and out, and surprisingly low miles. Shouldn't even need new tires.  Nice score!
> 
> You might have the battery load tested if it is the original, since this car sat so much and was barely driven over the course of ~4+ years, though I'd imagine it was checked and possibly replaced in the CPO inspection.


Yes, thanks for the advice. 

I did a complete check for faults with my Launch X431, and only faults showed in Gateway related to battery. Battery health showed at 100% in CPO report, but I asked them to repeat test before delivery.

I also checked Rev Limiter counts... all ranges (including range 1) was at 0, so this car wasn't abused. Reviewed a bunch of other parameters and they are all "like new".

First thing I'll be doing is flushing and replacing engine oil with Motul (and Ceratec), that's what I had been using my Macan with great results... and replacing all fluids (at least PDK).


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## santirx

Well, it was not long before I could not stand that center channel in the Cayman Bose system. I had a couple of components lying around from my Macan upgrade, and did a test by swapping the center channel. The Bose center channel is the worst driver in the Bose system. It overtakes the stage with bad sound…

The cone made out of cheap paper…same for the Macan….










I did a test with an Audiofrog GB25 series driver that I had (the other one is in the center channel of the Macan) and the difference is immediately noticeable. Like orders of magnitude different…









After the successful test, I 3d printed a proper adapter (which I designed for the Macan and fits the Cayman) to permanently install it. I also had a harness I made before that connects directly into the Cayman connector…. In the Macan, as you remember if you read this story, I preserved all connectors (didn’t cut any wires)… and this is the same principle here…

The 3d printed plate came out a little bubbly probably because of high temp, but functional. Installation complete. The center channel upgrade alone improves audio definition 100%.


















Harness with OEM connector…
























As stated before, the Bose 3” speakers are the worst speaker ever. I don’t understand why Porsche keeps installing them in their cars. Their 4” mids are decent, and the mid bass too. Sub is decent in the Cayman. Tweeters are mediocre… but they will have to do for now… maybe I’ll change them by Burmester tweeters, or I’ll install a set of Audison Voce AV1.1 I have lying around at home (left over from my Macan install).

AND SO IT BEGINS {ominous music 🎶}…😊


----------



## santirx

*TWEETERS*:

I wanted to change Cayman tweeters next… they were next in the list of bad Bose speakers…










I replaced them with the Audison Voce AV1.1, which I had from my prior Macan audio upgrade…









I designed and printed custom plates…










Printing:










I purchased these harnesses, they are designed for BMW, but they also fit Porsche…










Installed adapter to tweeter, so that I don’t have to cut any OEM wires…. Here mounting into plate…


















Removing the A/C vent is a bit challenging… need to pull the vent up in the front and then pull forward…. That will expose the Bose tweeter, which is mounted in a plate that I had to cut out (I did the same thing in my Macan). It is irreversible.










Removing tweeter…









Cutting out the plate…


----------



## santirx

718 TWEETERS CONTINUED:

Bose tweeter plate removed… as mentioned, this is irreversible as you need to cut the tabs…









I, however, designed and printed plates that can be used to reinstall the Bose tweeter again, should I choose to in the future (or when selling or trading car)…. This one shows the Macan tweeters installed in the plate.










Removing the original plate will leave two tabs, where I installed U-nuts to install plate. This is the mount for Burmester Ribbon Tweeters…










The OEM connector will fit into the BMW adapter I purchased and soldered into the Audison tweeter wires…










As shown here…









Tweeters installed…
















Now the Cayman Bose speakers (center channel and tweeters) are stored along all Macan speakers… in my basement… 😊









This is really a great improvement. Honestly, the Audiofrog GB25 in the center is carrying the bulk of the sound improvement. But this completes the stage. Audio is very good now. I’m not sure I’ll do anything else, unless I find a good deal with an Audiofrog GB10 (tweeters) set to replace the Audison AV1.1 I just installed. And/or if I get a good deal with an Audiofrog GB40 (midrange) set to replace the Bose door midrange drivers…


----------



## santirx

Final Thoughts on 718 Tweeters (I know many of you know the theory, but this is a copy/paste from a post I did in the 718forum, so please bear with me…)


I wanted to explain something about my tweeter installation. As you noticed, I didn’t install a capacitor in the positive lead of the tweeter.

Capacitors are used as a High Pass Filters (a 1st-order crossover) which allows tweeter to play high frequency while filtering out lower frequencies. This is especially important because tweeters have very low tolerance to low frequencies, with most of them failing immediately if exposed to them.

When you use a capacitor to filter low frequencies (when the amplifier is not actively filtering low frequencies), that is called a passive crossover. The crossover occurs at the capacitor level. It is called passive because once you set it, then it can’t be changed unless you change the capacitor (with different value).

The 718 has a fully active system. What that means is that each channel in the amplifier (10 total) have active filtering at the amplifier channel level. In an aftermarket system, you have access to that active crossover, you can change filter type and crossover point following a few steps in the computer.

In active systems, capacitors are installed in tweeters, not to determine the crossover, but as a protection device in case one inadvertently inputs a lower crossover than the tweeter can handle. That assures that the frequency is cutoff at a frequency that is going to protect the tweeter. Normally you would select a capacitor that will provide cutoff at 2xFs (resonant frequency). That cutoff frequency is much lower than the active crossover frequency you select.

So, the question is, why didn’t I install a capacitor when I installed the Audison tweeters?

The answer is, the Bose system in the 718 is (1) fully active (meaning there is no need for a passive crossover, as the crossover was set by Bose in the amplifier) and (2) The Bose system is a closed system, meaning that we don’t have access to software needed to change parameters… therefore it acts as a passive system from that perspective… so no risk to accidentally set a frequency below 2xFs.

If I were to change my amplifier to an aftermarket one, then I will promptly install cutoff capacitors to these tweeter for protection. That is the current setup I have in my Macan.


----------



## santirx

*TWEETER REBOOT in my 718 Cayman*

Audiofrog GB10 tweeters installed in my Cayman. I have originally taken the Bose tweeters out and installed Audison AV1.1 that I had from my original Macan install… but to be honest, I never liked those tweeters very much. So, I decided to get the GB10 after my experience in the Macan.

I continue to be so impressed with the performance of the Audiofrog GB series. These drivers are a bargain for what they can produce.

Replacing the center channel and tweeters with the GB series have made such a difference that I’m having a hard time finding a difference at mid/high frequencies with the Macan.


----------



## ksuwldcts

I recently purchased a Cayman with Bose, I am sure glad I found your thread! I find the Bose to be brash and blarey.

I would assume that swapping out the Bose speakers with GB10s and GB25 would require retuning, thus requiring replacing the Bose amp. But it sounds like that is not really necessary, just replace the three speakers and go. Do you think that replacing the mids with GP40s would also not require tuning?

Also, what Bose modes do you engage between Surround, Linear and AudioPilot?

Awesome work!


----------



## santirx

ksuwldcts said:


> I recently purchased a Cayman with Bose, I am sure glad I found your thread! I find the Bose to be brash and blarey.
> 
> I would assume that swapping out the Bose speakers with GB10s and GB25 would require retuning, thus requiring replacing the Bose amp. But it sounds like that is not really necessary, just replace the three speakers and go. Do you think that replacing the mids with GP40s would also not require tuning?
> 
> Also, what Bose modes do you engage between Surround, Linear and AudioPilot?
> 
> Awesome work!


Excellent! Is your Cayman a 981 or 718? Either way, very exciting car, congratulations!

On your question about tuning, I wouldn’t worry about that. The tuning with the OEM Bose system as is, is terrible. I monitored this with REW and is all over. The options you mention (Surround, Linear, etc…) alter the sound in a Bose unique way that makes it sound weird (not as pure).

So, what I did with my modest upgrade was to take out the speakers that I know are very bad, based on my experience with the Macan (3” center channel driver and tweeters), that make the sound harsh, and replace them with Audiofrog GB series speakers. That improved the quality of sound, but not the tuning.

I turned all the gimmick settings off (surround, linear, etc…). And played with treble (-4) and bass (+2) to make it as good to my ear as possible. Not a lot you can do with Bose. I also faded sound to rear (-2).

I’ll go ahead and do a REW measurement now to see where I am. I think I have the original one saved for comparison.

The 4” Bose drivers are decent, so decided not to touch them. I don’t think there will be that marginal gain, although I haven’t discarded the idea to upgrade them at some point.

The midwoofers, those can’t come out unless you upgrade the amplifier. You will loose the whole midbass frequency if you change those, because Bose is over-boosting those at 2-ohms… unless you can get 2-ohm mid woofer drivers.

Good luck. Let me know if you have other questions.


----------



## santirx

I had some time to take some REW measurements today at my 718 Cayman S… under several conditions (once again, this is after replacing center channel with a AF GB25 and tweeters with AF GB10):

1. Bass = +2 / Treble = 0 / Fade = -1 / Balance = 0 / Surround = OFF / Linear = OFF / Audio Pilot = OFF

You can see a significant peak at >7KHz with a max peak of 13dB at 18KHz…. This setting would be perfect without that peak at the top… it seems tweeters may need a passive LPF crossover at 10KHz with a 12 or 24 dB/Oct slope.









2. Bass = +2 / Treble = -9 / Fade = -1 / Balance = 0 / Surround = OFF / Linear = OFF / Audio Pilot = OFF

You can see a dip between 1KHz and 9KHz and a max dip of 10dB at 6,500Hz… which cause the audio to be muffled…









3. Bass = +2 / Treble = -5 / Fade = -1 / Balance = 0 / Surround = OFF / Linear = OFF / Audio Pilot = OFF

You can see a modest dip between 1KHz and 7KHz with a max dip of -6dB at 3KHz and 6.5KHz and a very modest peak at >9KHz with max peak of +6dB at 18KHz... Our ears will detect peaks of 5dB or more… 6dB is very close to ear perception, but not as bad as other settings… This is the most balanced setting I found, and the most pleasant to the ear. Not perfect, but I’ll take it for now.









This is what happens when you turn SURROUND option ON, with same conditions as above. You see a significant increase (and very noticeable to the ear) in the midrange frequencies, with a max peak of 7dB at 800Hz, with same dips and peaks as in previous measurement.









As stated, the audio is much cleaner and true without the Bose 3” center channel driver and the tweeters. Audiofrog GB series does a good job, but frankly, any good speaker will do better. I liked Hertz as well.

Final settings for now…. I wish we would have a 10 or 16-band equalizer on this thing… too bad that in such an expensive car we don’t have a head unit to match.


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## jon_4102

Hi, would you mind sharing the 3D print file for your Dial mount please?


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## santirx

MIDRANGE Speakers Swap on my 718 Cayman S:

I just swapped the door midrange Bose speakers by Audiofrog GB40. This retrofit was tricky because there is not a lot of space for a speaker adapter and the speaker. The Audiofrog GB40 is already 2mm thicker than the Bose. Therefore, it required careful design of a bracket adapter with tolerances to the hundredths of millimeters. It also required that the bracket be mounted on top of the speaker…

Design:









Printed:









Adapter mounted on speaker:









Harness fabricated so that it connects to OEM connector (no need to cut wires):









Comparison of Audiofrog GB40 and Bose drivers…

















Bose midrange (before change)










Audiofrog GB40 installed:

















I finished the project with some deadening behind the Midbass speaker, on the door plastic (as seen in the photo), and on the door cover.









Overall, very good results. Audiofrog GB series delivers very impressive, more precise and clean sound. Bose Midbass do a good enough job. I may change surround speakers (which are also the same 4” Bose speakers) for Audiofrog GB25 in the future.


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