# Me Myself and Klippel



## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

I know you guys are just waiting for this to started but as I had said when I took on this task this was about real world data and this means leaning a new testing system and it problems... Do not get me wrong this machine can measure some cool stuff but it is like wife in a pissed off mood one moment she likes you the next you are the bastard of the world.

I need to iron out all the variables on the testing so that I can give you guys real data that is not tainted, I am sorry this is taking time but I only do this on the side... 

The good news is that I am almost there, the test stand will be ready this week and the testing parameters of the tests done soon... I have to build or buy a filter for my buildings for the electrical is noisy.... and that just one of the headaches that I have had to deal with...

I will come one more often to keep everyone up to date.


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## the other hated guy (May 25, 2007)

Hey brotha... I'm positive that all of prior measurements were off due to not going to the lengths that you guys are going to... 

Hope all is well man!!!



iDtech said:


> I know you guys are just waiting for this to started but as I had said when I took on this task this was about real world data and this means leaning a new testing system and it problems... Do not get me wrong this machine can measure some cool stuff but it is like wife in a pissed off mood one moment she likes you the next you are the bastard of the world.
> 
> I need to iron out all the variables on the testing so that I can give you guys real data that is not tainted, I am sorry this is taking time but I only do this on the side...
> 
> ...


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

the other hated guy said:


> Hey brotha... I'm positive that all of prior measurements were off due to not going to the lengths that you guys are going to...
> 
> Hope all is well man!!!


Round 2 of the LV10. :surprised:


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

the other hated guy said:


> Hey brotha... I'm positive that all of prior measurements were off due to not going to the lengths that you guys are going to...
> 
> Hope all is well man!!!


Do you swallow too.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

Fascinating.


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## 86mr2 (Apr 29, 2005)

MiniVanMan said:


> Do you swallow too.


I can barely type. Ima laughing so hard.


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## vincywiz (Oct 21, 2009)

iDtech said:


> I know you guys are just waiting for this to started but as I had said when I took on this task this was about real world data and this means leaning a new testing system and it problems... Do not get me wrong this machine can measure some cool stuff but it is like wife in a pissed off mood one moment she likes you the next you are the bastard of the world.
> 
> I need to iron out all the variables on the testing so that I can give you guys real data that is not tainted, I am sorry this is taking time but I only do this on the side...
> 
> ...



Yeah; as an EE myself, I can appreciate that but non-technical people may not be as patient as you want and if they lose interest in what you are trying to do, then the folks who 'push the buttons' may (understandably) rethink the usefulness of the tests to the community AND to business in general...just a thought. My suggestion? go ahead and show *something* so that it'd look like you are on the case.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

the other hated guy said:


> Hey brotha... I'm positive that all of prior measurements were off due to not going to the lengths that you guys are going to...
> 
> Hope all is well man!!!


Of course... you have nothing but speculation to offer as usual. How about ... the KDA is a pretty full proof device and all these delays and excuses are nothing more than that? I had it up and running with consistent results in a single morning. Dr. Klippel himself will verify that it doesn't take months of delay, all these "special" variables to be taken into consideration, etc. in order to conduct an accurate driver test.

I'm sure MVM can attest... you can put the driver on a good stand, no stand, crappy stand, noisy power or not... the test results are the same each and every time. The differences run with how you set up the test parameters in the software itself. 

Personally, I'm more concerned about testing bias than anything else. I think Ant made a very poor choice given the delays, apparent lack of understanding of how the KDA works, and the rather skeptical view most DIY enthusiasts hold for ID in regards to their past "appreciation" for objective testing data.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

npdang,

The current state of car audio is not even worth testing drivers for, so it just does not matter anymore ... *PERIOD !!*


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

npdang said:


> Of course... you have nothing but speculation to offer as usual. How about ... the KDA is a pretty full proof device and all these delays and excuses are nothing more than that?


Indeed. 

I think the truth could be that somebody had an "oh ****, our stuff isn't going to look good" moment. The best way to keep that fact from becoming obvious is to simply not provide data. Lock the thing up and throw away the key, as it were.


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## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> Indeed.
> 
> I think the truth could be that somebody had an "oh ****, our stuff isn't going to look good" moment. The best way to keep that fact from becoming obvious is to simply not provide data. Lock the thing up and throw away the key, as it were.


I hate to say it, but NP and DS have a point. 

Of course, the simple way around that is to simply say:

"ID will not be testing any of its own drivers in an effort to prevent any bias or perceived bias from being introduced in the results" and simply do some tests on other stuff.

This way you dont have to post results, if they dont look as good as you thought it would, and it gets this back on path.

Also, it would be great if you did some of the newer DIY (raw) drivers instead of car-fi branded stuff, as I am about to start looking for drivers for my truck... And it is DIYma after all...


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

I just wouldn't want there to be any tension.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

el_chupo_ said:


> "ID will not be testing any of its own drivers in an effort to prevent any bias or perceived bias from being introduced in the results" and simply do some tests on other stuff.


There's still risk of bias, be it trying to manipulate the machine to make dross marketed for car audio to look better than it should, or simply selection bias in not testing the good drivers, that as a rule (with the JBL WGTi an exception, and maybe there are a few others) that don't go through car audio stores.


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

Ya a car audio company never should have gotten the klippel for use, Ant has to be gaining something from this, just like everything else going on here on the forum. He didnt do it for us forum members.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Testing bias is going to happen. I honestly don't care that it happens, as long at it is admitted and documented. Each report should cover the entire conditions of the test, as well as the results, as well as potential sources of error. We will be able to tell exactly how valid the test results are immediately, depending on what the published report looks like. Anyone that is used to reading technical reports will be able to see straight through BS, so the only determinant to how useful the testing is the quality (read: thoroughness) of the report.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

_Testing_ bias is only one issue. The other one, which goes to the heart of the framer's intent for this forum, is _DUT selection bias._ ("DUT" is jargon for "device under test")

Chances are good, now that this machine is where it is, that the truly high-quality products that previous testing have confirmed to be superior performers where it matters (Peerless XXLS/HDS Exclusive/SLS8/XLS8, Aura NS12-794-4A, Pioneer PRS midwoofer, and so on) are unlikely to even be tested, in favor of whatever worthless dross gets channeled into car-fi showrooms.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

Fair enough. I forgot for a moment that this was an elective procedure on the part of the tester, instead of by the election of the members.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Maybe.

But the only way that would happen would be people not sending drivers to test. All of the KDA tests were done using member supplied speakers (for the most part), and if people continue to send drivers to be tested I wouldn't see that part changing.



DS-21 said:


> _Testing_ bias is only one issue. The other one, which goes to the heart of the framer's intent for this forum, is _DUT selection bias._ ("DUT" is jargon for "device under test")
> 
> Chances are good, now that this machine is where it is, that the truly high-quality products that previous testing have confirmed to be superior performers where it matters (Peerless XXLS/HDS Exclusive/SLS8/XLS8, Aura NS12-794-4A, Pioneer PRS midwoofer, and so on) are unlikely to even be tested, in favor of whatever worthless dross gets channeled into car-fi showrooms.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

They could reject drivers, or hold onto 'em for so long without testing them that others are discouraged from sending in their own property. Or "accidentally" destroy some and blame it on the test. (Honestly, I would not send any of my own property to ID for testing. Sorry.)

Benefit of the doubt is to be earned, and it's fair to say ID has done nothing of the sort here. It's not like we don't already have a record of unreasonably long delays...


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

BeatsDownLow said:


> Ya a car audio company never should have gotten the klippel for use, Ant has to be gaining something from this, just like everything else going on here on the forum. He didnt do it for us forum members.


Strong assumption.
What exactly do you suppose I am gaining from this?

I chose Eric and Matt, because I know them, trust them, and respect them.
I have no doubt that they will be as unbiased as ANYONE could be.

ANT


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

DIYMA said:


> I have no doubt that they will be as unbiased as ANYONE could be.
> 
> ANT


You, the folks at ID, and a handfull of others here (less that 2% of the entire forum) are the only ones that "think" that.

The only person I truly trusted was dpdang, since he had nothing to gain from his measurements.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

He was selling speakers at the same time wasn't he?


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> He was selling speakers at the same time wasn't he?


Yes, a subwoofer. I don't recall him testing those much if at all. Mostly mids.

He never struck me as a big subwoofer fan. He rarely talked about them at all.


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

89grand said:


> You, the folks at ID, and a handfull of others here (less that 2% of the entire forum) are the only ones that "think" that.
> 
> The only person I truly trusted was *dpdang*, since he had nothing to gain from his measurements.


There you go again


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And there were plans for other DIYMA speaker too, no? I think I remember a 3 and a tweeter.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

Rudeboy said:


> There you go again



****, I had finally stopped doing that, but it looks it's back again.


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> And there were plans for other DIYMA speaker too, no? I think I remember a 3 and a tweeter.


Yeah, I think so, but anyway, I never him bash other subs even though he was selling his own. He really seemed un-biased as far as I could tell.

Plus, he was small time compared to someone like ID. He wasn't a dealer by any means.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I haven't seen Eric bash any products either. If something is good he will tell me no matter who made it.

In the grand scheme of things, ID is a pretty small company in of itself.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

so much animosity!

At this rate, I predict never seeing a driver tested.


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## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

As I expected someone would complain about this, it is ok that is your choice.

I stated I did not know this unit and would have to learn about and this is done only on the side and has nothing to do with Image Dynamics it is just housed in the building ( insurance reasons )


Now now down to facts and not opinions.

1) This is done on the side and on my time, I do have a life and full time job.

2) Klippel only likes to email tech support ( I have spoken with them on this ) and disagree that email support is the best way.

3) The Klippel unit that we have and are using is a basic machine with basic software packages testing of product must have methodically to the procedure or test to test will have high rate of inconstancy and this can not be. ( contrary to belief this is not simply a point and click test system )

4) Results must be backed up with other test and this means coming up a testing with a methodically that differs from the style I use now.

5) I have to make all new rigs for testing this includes new woofer and mid range stands a long with new testing baffles for smaller speakers and making sure those do not add issues, good thing I have friends that know more about testing rigs application and are speaking with them ( also I have to pay for the parts and the steel and so on, this comes out of my pocket )

6) Next major hurtle is the amp for testing itself for me to do test of large woofers with long Xmax, I need a big amp to do so.

There is still more to go over but I think I have made my point.


Anyone that knows this Klippel unit front to back, I will be more that willing to listen and take in any knowledge that you have. If no one wants to help or call me,all you are doing is stating your opinions with no facts at all... So before writing something derogatory in this post please call me and get the facts I am always a phone call away.if the previous testers want to help me please PM me and I will give you my phone number.

Just remember I took this on so to remove bias from results and this means testing must be done right!!! If all you guys want is a bunch of pretty pictures with no real meaning,I am not your guy. 

"*right is right and nothing more*"

I will not state any opinion about the sound quality of drivers being tested, no listen test will be done.

That is for you guys to argue over.

As for a update there was a problem that the machine was throwing up every error it could think of, now that this is figured out I have started to repeat the testing over and over to make sure nothing is wrong.. also going to test on my Linear_X rig and make sure the test is valid.

end of line.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

the big amp issue comes into play with low impedance drivers. My recommendation would to be finding a crown MA or MT series (Macrotech/Microtech) that allows you to do stereo, bridged, and PARALLEL MONO) the last being important because it puts the channels in parallel as opposed to in series to drive really low impedance loads. this makes the amp ''stable'' to one ohm, although in actual operating conditions I would rather see it at 2 ohms... regardless it's more than capable of driving 1 ohm for the duration of the test. Give it a 30A breaker and appropriate wiring.

Gary borrowed an amp of mine to do some testing, he needed more power than what he had but IIRC it was not being driven with that low of an impedance, he needed some voltage though.

Macrotechs and Microtechs can be had pretty damn cheap now that the current touring market is ditching them for lighter weight switching amps.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

iDtech said:


> Just remember I took this on so to remove bias from results and this means testing must be done right!!!


Are you trying to claim that previous results posted here are "biased?" 

Is it just because with one major exception (Pioneer PRS) the "car-fi" marketed stuff ended up looking so much crappier than better designed gear?


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

iDtech said:


> Just remember I took this on so to remove bias from results and this means testing must be done right!!!


This is why I returned the Klippel. Vendors that have never posted a single bit of information about their drivers other than T/S parameters calling out independent testers for their conclusions. 

I could be very petty, and npdang as well, and do exactly what you're trying to prevent because we know it'll never be good enough, no matter how much effort you put into it.

Now proclaiming, and that's EXACTLY what you did, that our tests were "biased" is insulting at least, and bordering on downright appalling. Especially given, as I stated before, that ID, as a company, has NEVER provided any real useful information about their product beyond some basic parameters, and often lacking even simple T/S parameters. 

So, PLEASE tell me how you plan to remove "all" bias from your results? A test rig isn't going to cut it.

People that know me would say I have excellent character, and integrity. Not enough for you evidently, but you expect me, and others to go off of your word and the word of others that yours is better than mine. Again, insulting. I guess I don't have a good enough marketing manager. I should probably hire one.  Maybe if I made something and gave it to the right people, they would tout me as being of impeccable character as well.

Since my results were so biased, I'm asking Ant to remove all my testing. I'll let npdang speak for himself, but it seems all this "biased" data should be completely removed.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I think you guys are digging a bit too deep on the bias comment. Maybe Matt was trying to say he is trying to take care of everything on his end as to remove any possible future accusations of possible bias.


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## gymrat2005 (Oct 4, 2009)

^ X2 that was the inference that I made. I suppose you guys may have made a different one. I certainly don't mean any disrespect, I just can't see where he talked about any previous testing being biased. I think he was simply trying to preempt the bias most members thought he/his company would interject into the testing process. In fact he stated if previous testers would like to help him, to contact him. Why would he want your help if he is at the level of accusing you of being biased?


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

In my mind he wasn't accusing you guys of being biased either (minivanman and npdang).

I will add that I don't think ID was a good move to get the klippel. The best thing would of been to torture and perhaps bribe NPDANG (Perhaps nto in that order) to take it back and make the measurements. In my mind he was really good at it.


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## 94VG30DE (Nov 28, 2007)

I don't know a lot of about the equipment itself, and I'm not second-guessing anyone's decision to give the Klippel to anyone. It's obviously not my call. 

That being said, what if you were to just give the Klippel to someone that really understands _testing_, but not necessarily audio. Seems like anyone used to testing equipment could do the testing, although they might not be as familiar with what the graphs are "supposed" to look like, or what those outputs would mean. But that would definitely remove almost all testing bias, b/c the tester would not know or care what the implications for his testing were, only that he had a subject (driver) and an apparatus (Klippel), and would move forward from there every time he got a new subject in the mail. 

I will say one thing that I appreciated about previous testing to this point was the explanation of what we were looking at with the graphs. The information isn't really useful if you don't know what you're looking at, and previous testers did a fairly good job of breaking that down for those of us that aren't as thoroughly versed in the subject. I'm just saying that the testing and the interpretation/explanation _might _not have to be done by the same person.


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## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

MinVanMan and all, my statement on bias was for me only and was not implying that anyone testing before was bias.... 

But it goes to show how easy people get there feathers ruffled when they do not see nor hear what they want,this is why I am going to great lengths to make these test correct. As I said in the previous statement I welcome your opinions and suggestion on this, so please pm me and I will give you my phone number so that we may talk about this and other concerns you might have about the testing. I am old school and like verbal communication with people more than typing or texting... I do believe you will find that your fears will be unfounded after talking to me. 

On Image Dynamics drivers the real reason is because in the past Eric and I keep all the info in our heads but this is going to change and you will see a complete test on all our drivers, also we spend more time tinkering than writing ... one note: our subs do have complete T/S info.

end of line.


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

iDtech said:


> But it goes to show how easy people get there feathers ruffled when they do not see nor hear what they want.


:laugh:Good one Daffy Duck:laugh:


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

Why not just acquire one of the speakers tested by the previous 'working?' rig and set the rig up to test the reference speaker and achieve the same result as NP or vanman? Then, any physical testing bias would be built into future tests making the playing field level.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Biassed testing free !

*The Absolute best Unbias, actually Uncontested Perfect speaker Testing = $$$$.00*

just kidding


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I'm glad Matt is going to these lengths to CHA...as seen from the unprofessional knee jerk reactions from a few people on this thread. As important as data is to people on this forum, people should be happy that he is going out of his way to provide accurate AND precise data. I would think he is shooting for testing similar to Vance Dickason's testing in Voice Coil.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

thehatedguy said:


> I'm glad Matt is going to these lengths to CHA...as seen from the unprofessional knee jerk reactions from a few people on this thread. As important as data is to people on this forum, people should be happy that he is going out of his way to provide accurate AND precise data. I would think he is shooting for testing similar to Vance Dickason's testing in Voice Coil.


You're as unbiased as ID so you're opinion carries just about as much weight as their's. 

Quit the handjobbing.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

You're making positive assumptions about the process that are, viewed in the light most favorable to those involved (which probably isn't a reasonable standard here), at best no more warranted than the cynical assumptions others (myself certainly included) have made.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I'm sorry that I called and spoke to Matt and Eric about what's up with the machine. 

I guess it is easier to sit and ***** about something rather than calling to find out what is going on.

It's nice that finding out both sides of the story is considered handjobbing. So if you don't follow group think you are handjobbing. Nice.

Atleast people know who I am and where I stand on things...unlike your keyboard commando self.



bassfromspace said:


> You're as unbiased as ID so you're opinion carries just about as much weight as their's.
> 
> Quit the handjobbing.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I haven't made assumptions. I called and talked to them and found out what was going on. Everyone else is making assumptions.



DS-21 said:


> You're making positive assumptions about the process that are, viewed in the light most favorable to those involved (which probably isn't a reasonable standard here), at best no more warranted than the cynical assumptions others (myself certainly included) have made.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Which driver is up first on the Klippel?


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

I realize that this is proceeding pretty slowly but WOW the reaction here is HARSH. 

The best I can tell, ID got the KDA sometime in Nov. 4 months later a guy that is not being paid and is actually spending some of his own money and lots of his free time, get things rolling. Keep in mind these 4 months span Thanksgiving, Xmas, and New Years day. For most folks that is a pretty busy time of the year. Additionally, to claim bias before the first test is run is ridiculous. Does the potential exist, SURE, but it has yet to be demonstrated. Don't hang the guy for what he MIGHT do hang him for what he HAS done.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

I think the fact that you are given (loaned) such an expensive device warrants for a much faster turn around then "Starting to look at it" after 4 months IMO.

Of course I have no clue what the agreement was.


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

The point is, a line was crossed when this machine went to a party that was not only commercial, but also a commercial entity that markets exclusively to car audio. (One might even say, one of the reactionary firms that this forum was conceived as a buffer against.) 

Note that most of the original members of this forum were against the machine even going to Dan Wiggins, even though Mr. Wiggins is not a direct player in the car audio market, he has contributed mightily to the understanding of DIY audio community in general (from his posts on the Basslist in the 1990s onwards), and many of us own/like drivers that he designed. There's a line between hobbyist and industry participant that would have been crossed.

And now that the machine's in the hands of a party with, let's all be realistic, a mediocre-performing but expensive product car-fi line and vested interest in the outcome of testing, surprise surprise, the machine is idle.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Don't forget CES.



SSSnake said:


> I realize that this is proceeding pretty slowly but WOW the reaction here is HARSH.
> 
> The best I can tell, ID got the KDA sometime in Nov. 4 months later a guy that is not being paid and is actually spending some of his own money and lots of his free time, get things rolling. Keep in mind these 4 months span Thanksgiving, Xmas, and New Years day. For most folks that is a pretty busy time of the year. Additionally, to claim bias before the first test is run is ridiculous. Does the potential exist, SURE, but it has yet to be demonstrated. Don't hang the guy for what he MIGHT do hang him for what he HAS done.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Come on now with the conspiracy theory stuff.

Next thing you will be saying is the Illuminati are behind it all. 



DS-21 said:


> And now that the machine's in the hands of a party with, let's all be realistic, a mediocre-performing but expensive product car-fi line and vested interest in the outcome of testing, surprise surprise, the machine is idle.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Come on now with the conspiracy theory stuff.
> 
> Next thing you will be saying is the Illuminati are behind it all.


The Illuminati are fictitious. It's the Masons that control everything.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> The point is, a line was crossed when this machine went to a party that was not only commercial, but also a commercial entity that markets exclusively to car audio.


I don't disagree with this statement. However, the changes with testing and the website really trace back to its sale, horse trade, or whatever. ANT is part of the commercial side of car audio. Should we condemn NPDang for selling, trading, or providing (I don't know the details concerning the transaction and I am trying not to assume anything) it to ANT? I think not, NP was well within his rights to do so. As far as I know, the KDA is ANT's to do with as he sees fit. Would I prefer that it was being used on a regular basis? YES! However, I would rather have no information than misinformation.

All I am saying is that until we get tests results that are obviously flawed and/or until Matt fails to produce anything for a more extended period (I know, this is compeltely subjective) we should hold our tongues. Besides it is ANT that should handle the interaction with Matt/ID not the forum members in general. In other words, complain to ANT 




> The Illuminati are fictitious. It's the Masons that control everything.


Now that is just straight funny!


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## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Come on now with the conspiracy theory stuff.


I had assumed you were more intelligent than to see drawing reasonable inferences based on facts and past behavior (Matt's idiotic comments on this forum about shorting rings, for example, demonstrating a low degree of competence in his field) as a "conspiracy" theory. 

Also, someone who understands the plain meaning of words knows that a "conspiracy" requires multiple actors by definition, and in this case only one - ID - is responsible.


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## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Now, to be fair, it took me several months to get up and running as well, and for many of the same reasons that it's taking Matt to do so. Being overly cautious isn't a bad thing, ESPECIALLY when there is a large segment of your target audience that wants to do nothing but discredit you. 

Looking back I would have approached it completely differently, after realizing that the Klippel really needs very little other than an amplifier to push power to the driver. The rest is in the actual software setup itself.

However, it's funny that somebody that has never even seen a Klippel and can barely interpret the results will call you out on your method.

So, do I like seeing the Klippel idle again. No. I have to take a good amount of responsibility in that, as it took me less than 10 tests to thoroughly fed up with it (not the Klippel itself, but the reactions to it). So, in this capacity, cut Matt some slack.


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

Just send it to me -an enthusiast with nothing to gain that loves this kind of stuff - and I promise to do one test per week.

hehehe


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You have Matt, Eric, and Ant...so there are multiple actors involved. 

But ID itself is multple actors by definition. All companies would be unless sole proprietorship. 



DS-21 said:


> I had assumed you were more intelligent than to see drawing reasonable inferences based on facts and past behavior (Matt's idiotic comments on this forum about shorting rings, for example, demonstrating a low degree of competence in his field) as a "conspiracy" theory.
> 
> Also, someone who understands the plain meaning of words knows that a "conspiracy" requires multiple actors by definition, and in this case only one - ID - is responsible.


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## avaxis (May 23, 2006)

npdang said:


> Of course... you have nothing but speculation to offer as usual. How about ... the KDA is a pretty full proof device and all these delays and excuses are nothing more than that? I had it up and running with consistent results in a single morning. Dr. Klippel himself will verify that it doesn't take months of delay, all these "special" variables to be taken into consideration, etc. in order to conduct an accurate driver test.
> 
> I'm sure MVM can attest... you can put the driver on a good stand, no stand, crappy stand, noisy power or not... the test results are the same each and every time. The differences run with how you set up the test parameters in the software itself.
> 
> Personally, I'm more concerned about testing bias than anything else. I think Ant made a very poor choice given the delays, apparent lack of understanding of how the KDA works, and the rather skeptical view most DIY enthusiasts hold for ID in regards to their past "appreciation" for objective testing data.


exactly! you nailed it. the device is full proof, and the test results are the same and repeatable (basis of scientifically proven) by anybody with the same device and same subject. so.. my guess is, all that time is spent trying to manipulate the device into churning out results they they want. else I do not see any other reason for the delay :laugh:

ID probably went like "oh rats, by churning out actual numbers its gonna paint our product in very bad light, how how how how?"

oh by the way, everything i said is merely MY OPINION, and is not based on facts, merely my interpretation of the situation. though logically it does make sense. draw your own conclusions.

MVM: its plain obvious he swallows, do you have to ask? :laugh:


----------



## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

Is there a time frame for this to get going????????


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

goodstuff said:


> Is there a time frame for this to get going????????


Everyone who has had it , did it in 2 weeks or under 

ceptin these guys


----------



## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

a$$hole said:


> Everyone who has had it , did it in 2 weeks or under
> 
> ceptin these guys


I meant a time frame for ID to get going.


----------



## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

goodstuff said:


> I meant a time frame for ID to get going.


How's July sound ?


----------



## avaxis (May 23, 2006)

a$$hole said:


> How's July sound ?


depends, this century or the next?


----------



## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

MiniVanMan said:


> Now, to be fair, it took me several months to get up and running as well, and for many of the same reasons that it's taking Matt to do so. Being overly cautious isn't a bad thing, ESPECIALLY when there is a large segment of your target audience that wants to do nothing but discredit you.
> 
> Looking back I would have approached it completely differently, after realizing that the Klippel really needs very little other than an amplifier to push power to the driver. The rest is in the actual software setup itself.
> 
> ...




Thanks....

Now as a update to this whole mess.

What has taken some time was to understanding this rig and the forms of testing that it can do, as I stated before this is not a plug and play rig. along with all of this building new test stands and also new baffle plates to hold the drivers in a universal way was needed.

I need to remind some here that I do this on the side and not as part of iD, so sometimes I do not wish to scratch my head all night and stare into the abyss the way this machine makes you.





Good news and Bad at the same time.
For now I will be able to test only up to a 8" midbass driver ( due to amp restrictions ) "working on this"

The test will include both *Klippel* data and *LinerX* data in a way that can be clearly read and understood. 

LSI style testing (klippel) will be the main test and until I have the laser and mic LPM's will not be tested. 

Also I will state!!!!!!! in testing results are only as good as the data coming in. that means if I do not have a extra test driver that I can take disassemble to measure:

Mass
BL
RE

these test will have a error rate and this is what I am testing now.

I will have a test of a driver up here for everyone to see the results and the form that will be used.


end of line.


----------



## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Yes, I had a bit of knee jerk reaction myself... which is not unusual anytime I see a post by those hated people. So I apologize to all who had to read it. Matt is a good guy at the end of the day, but from everything I hear/read doesn't sound like he's a big tech guy and the man obviously has his biases (as do I). I just don't understand why a guy who in the past has not cared one whit about loudspeaker testing or objective measurements would suddenly volunteer to conduct such testing.

Also, I didn't give up the Klippel willingly. Jeff wanted it back and I gave it back to him. I can't remember why but Ant and I never came to terms and he decided to let someone else use it.

All I gotta say is if you can read at a college level and have a little bit of driver testing experience, it takes a few hours at most to start running the Klippel and getting consistent results. I don't know where anyone gets the idea they need special wiring or testing rig. setups. It's really, really not complicated and about as plug and play as you can get. For goodness sakes, I had people who could barely speak english testing their own drivers with about 5 mins of instruction in the next room while I was watching tv.


----------



## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

iDtech said:


> Also I will state!!!!!!! in testing results are only as good as the data coming in. that means if I do not have a extra test driver that I can take disassemble to measure:
> 
> Mass
> BL
> RE


Why would you need to take a driver apart to measure the above parameters?


----------



## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

npdang said:


> Yes, I had a bit of knee jerk reaction myself... which is not unusual anytime I see a post by those hated people. So I apologize to all who had to read it. Matt is a good guy at the end of the day, but from everything I hear/read doesn't sound like he's a big tech guy and the man obviously has his biases (as do I). I just don't understand why a guy who in the past has not cared one whit about loudspeaker testing or objective measurements would suddenly volunteer to conduct such testing.
> 
> Also, I didn't give up the Klippel willingly. Jeff wanted it back and I gave it back to him. I can't remember why but Ant and I never came to terms and he decided to let someone else use it.
> 
> All I gotta say is if you can read at a college level and have a little bit of driver testing experience, it takes a few hours at most to start running the Klippel and getting consistent results. I don't know where anyone gets the idea they need special wiring or testing rig. setups. It's really, really not complicated and about as plug and play as you can get. For goodness sakes, I had people who could barely speak english testing their own drivers with about 5 mins of instruction in the next room while I was watching tv.





Brian Steele said:


> Why would you need to take a driver apart to measure the above parameters?


Scratching my head. Are we all talking about the same klippel?
Sure doesn't seem like it.


----------



## lycan (Dec 20, 2009)

npdang said:


> Also, I didn't give up the Klippel willingly. Jeff wanted it back and I gave it back to him. I can't remember why but Ant and I never came to terms and he decided to let someone else use it.


That's not accurate.

After Jeff left the forum, he requested (not demanded) the Klippel be sent to him (he paid for it), since its value to the forum had been ... "diminished".

npdang agreed to send it to Jeff ... _but he never did_. After months of time had passed, npdang never did send the Klippel "back" to Jeff.

After Ant purchased (or otherwise acquired) the forum from npdang (i don't know the details of the transaction), Ant & Jeff agreed upon and arranged new ownership of the Klippel. Ant was able to finally convince npdang to ship the Klippel to it's new owner.

To this day, the Klippel has _never_ been in Jeff's possession. Jeff has never seen it, or touched it. That's a simple fact.


----------



## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

:snacks:


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

iDtech said:


> Also I will state!!!!!!! in testing results are only as good as the data coming in. that means if I do not have a extra test driver that I can take disassemble to measure:
> 
> Mass
> BL
> RE


You actually have a germ of an idea there, in that drivers will vary in performance based on the moving mass of the cone and coil, the strength of the magnet, etc. 

However, your stated method to "compensate" for these sources of is nonsensical. We're talking factors that come down to unit-to-unit variation. So tearing apart _an extra test driver_ won't tell you about the exact moving mass or BL of the _original test driver,_ because they're likely to be different. How different depends on the tolerances to which the driver is made, of course.

Besides, I don't see why one needs to ruin a driver just to measure its impedance, but maybe that's just me, you know, thinking and stuff . Actually, one can't measure or derive all of those things entirely nondestructively. The mass one needs to know is the mass added to the cone, the volume of the test enclosure minus the volume taken up (or added, if it's face-down) by the DUT.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Without the laser on the Klippel machine there is NO way to get an accurate measurement of the driver's voice coil center in the gap. What you rely on is a best guess estimate from the machine. Also without taking a speaker apart, you are relying on the manufacture's data for Mms and xmax. Also, taking a speaker apart will allow you to measure the coil length and the height of the gap to get you a true measurement of BL, Mms, and Xmax. Any other way without the laser is a best guess...and subject to error.

As far as plug it up and let it go to get data with this particular machine...maybe. *Dr. Klippel himself* has remotely ran this particular machine and HE is having problems getting repeatable and reliable data. Data for the sake of data is bad data. You need a repeatable and reliable means of testing, and if the man who invented the machine is having issues with that, then what can you really say the cause of the problem is? It's not at that point operator error. Maybe the machine itself has some issues.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Also, taking a speaker apart will allow you to measure the coil length and the height of the gap to get you a true measurement of BL, Mms, and Xmax. Any other way without the laser is a best guess...and subject to error.


You miss my point. What's to say that the moving mass measured from a _second_ driver is going to be the same as the Mms of the _DUT?_ Or, if the second driver is off-spec, that the measured Mms of the second driver is going to be closer to the Mms of the first driver than the published spec would be? We're talking a unit-unit variation issue here. The only thing that might be useful in grenading a perfectly good driver is to detect a running production change that is not (yet) reflected in specs.

(I am assuming that testing is limited to drivers from competent makers/resellers who provide such basic information. If they don't provide that kind of data, they're not worth looking at.) 

As for measuring xmax, I think it's long been established that xmax ≠ [(Hag - Lvc) / 2]. Getting an accurate picture of xmax based on outcomes (70% BL, etc.) rather than relying an antiquated rules-of-thumb is one of the major things the Klippel does.

Lastly, is the absolute value of BL even important? What we're interested in is the _shape_ of the BL curve, the _relative_ fall-off of BL over stroke.


----------



## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> You miss my point. What's to say that the moving mass measured from a _second_ driver is going to be the same as the Mms of the _DUT?_ Or, if the second driver is off-spec, that the measured Mms of the second driver is going to be closer to the Mms of the first driver than the published spec would be? We're talking a unit-unit variation issue here. The only thing that might be useful in grenading a perfectly good driver is to detect a running production change that is not (yet) reflected in specs.
> 
> (I am assuming that testing is limited to drivers from competent makers/resellers who provide such basic information. If they don't provide that kind of data, they're not worth looking at.)
> 
> ...


Excellent points.


----------



## TREETOP (Feb 11, 2009)

I hate to point out the emperor's nudity, but this whole thing seems like a multi-level failure. 
Maybe it should just be shipped back to Jeff or whoever it belongs to and we can forget it exists and go back to more primitive (yet proven) methods of choosing speakers.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The only way to get a real measurement of Lvc is to measure the coil. Or, you can rely on data from the manufacture of the speaker. Or, you can use the laser.

The same goes for Mms.

The same goes for the shape of the BL curve.

With respect to Bl curve, Dr. Geddes says it is rather unimportant...or not as important as some people would lead you to believe.

So the question becomes, "Do you want data where there is no error?" Or, it becomes, "Is data with error based on assumption acceptable?"



DS-21 said:


> You miss my point. What's to say that the moving mass measured from a _second_ driver is going to be the same as the Mms of the _DUT?_ Or, if the second driver is off-spec, that the measured Mms of the second driver is going to be closer to the Mms of the first driver than the published spec would be? We're talking a unit-unit variation issue here. The only thing that might be useful in grenading a perfectly good driver is to detect a running production change that is not (yet) reflected in specs.
> 
> (I am assuming that testing is limited to drivers from competent makers/resellers who provide such basic information. If they don't provide that kind of data, they're not worth looking at.)
> 
> ...


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> The only way to get a real measurement of Lvc is to measure the coil.


Again, not sure what the physical coil length has to do with anything. And certainly other things can be measured (to the extent they're required) nondestructively.



thehatedguy said:


> With respect to Bl curve, Dr. Geddes says it is rather unimportant...or not as important as some people would lead you to believe.


Interesting. Now that you mention it, I recall reading something to that effect by him as well. But I don't recall where. Do you have a cite?



thehatedguy said:


> So the question becomes, "Do you want data where there is no error?"


There's no such thing as data without error, so hows about the gang who can't shoot straight just fire the damn thing up?


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Lvc is length of voice coil, right? You can either measure it, use the laser, or take the word of the manufacture.

Geddes said it over on DIY. 

I guess you are dealing with degrees of error. Wouldn't it be best to eliminate as much controllable error as possible? Instead of having an 80% confidence interval, wouldn't you rather have a 95% CI (just figuratively speaking)?


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Lvc is length of voice coil, right? You can either measure it, use the laser, or take the word of the manufacture.

Geddes said it over on DIY. 

I guess you are dealing with degrees of error. Wouldn't it be best to eliminate as much controllable error as possible? Instead of having an 80% confidence interval, wouldn't you rather have a 95% CI (just figuratively speaking)?


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

Who cares how long the coil is, though? If you're measuring Xmax as a cutoff point, Lvc is basically irrelevant. And I don't see how the laser could magically see through the driver to measure Lvc anyway. An xray, maybe.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Because it's the "L" in BL silly.

Seriously though, I think it more on the QC end to look at off centered coils in manufacturing. You might have a product that has all of the latest bells and whistles, but if it's built like crap...who cares? And XBL^2 drivers are notorious for whatever reason for having offset coils.

The laser will measure the coil at rest, in max forward and rear distances, and then give you real data on the shape of the Bl curve as the driver sits. Right now we have data that is a best guess as to the shape of the curve.

I'll have to re-read how Dickason tests his drivers in Voice Coil. I don't think the place he subs the Klippel testing out to has a laser either.


----------



## Brian Steele (Jun 1, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> Who cares how long the coil is, though? If you're measuring Xmax as a cutoff point, Lvc is basically irrelevant.


I'm with you here. It's an irrelevant measurement IMO.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I agree and there's some rather easy (rednek) ways to look at VC centering without cutting the thing in half.


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

Boy, this thread (and many recent others) sure put the "H" in "Hobby." Or perhaps Jesus H. Christ is more appropriate. I mean, it IS Crucified Friday. The heated arguments that have developed over car ****ing audio are laughable. The DIY'ers, the average enthusiasts, the marketers, the guys otherwise in the industry, can't everyone just calm the **** down maybe? Go out and sit in your cars/trucks/golf carts for a bit, try to get that stage a bit more centered, and rock out to some Zeppelin/Metallica/Jason Mraz/whatever gets you off. Have a beer. Smoke a joint. Take a soma. Jerk off on your dog. Replace that dead tweeter in your A-pillar. Rip your entire CD collection losslessly to your hard drive. Cross terminals on your newly acquired LP amp then rebuild it. Get that weird bump on your ass checked out. Do something besides sit on DIYMA and argue about ****ing car audio. All of you. I mean, for ****'s sake.


----------



## bass_lover1 (Dec 10, 2005)

mikey7182 said:


> Boy, this thread (and many recent others) sure put the "H" in "Hobby." Or perhaps Jesus H. Christ is more appropriate. I mean, it IS Crucified Friday. The heated arguments that have developed over car ****ing audio are laughable. The DIY'ers, the average enthusiasts, the marketers, the guys otherwise in the industry, can't everyone just calm the **** down maybe? Go out and sit in your cars/trucks/golf carts for a bit, try to get that stage a bit more centered, and rock out to some Zeppelin/Metallica/Jason Mraz/whatever gets you off. Have a beer. Smoke a joint. Take a soma. *Jerk off on your dog.* Replace that dead tweeter in your A-pillar. Rip your entire CD collection losslessly to your hard drive. Cross terminals on your newly acquired LP amp then rebuild it. Get that weird bump on your ass checked out. Do something besides sit on DIYMA and argue about ****ing car audio. All of you. I mean, for ****'s sake.


I was with you up until this point, and then stopped reading because I was laughing so damn hard.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

At what point is "good enough?" I think Matt is wanting to take data collection and analysis to another level, but people are complaining it is taking too long. If you want half-assed results for the sake of results, I m sure that could have been done by now.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> At what point is "good enough?" I think Matt is wanting to take data collection and analysis to another level, but people are complaining it is taking too long. If you want half-assed results for the sake of results, I m sure that could have been done by now.


this insinuates that the previous testers were using half assed methods to produce half assed results.. surely this is not what you mean?


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Laser correlates the actual measurement (BL KMS etc) to the actual position of the drivers diaphragm. Without this it is just calculated by looking at back emf off the speaker. This leaves a large possibility for errors. FYI Just because the VC is centered on the top plate does not mean it is centered in the middle of the magnetic field.

Actual measured mass is necessary for proper specifications calculation, If this can be provided then the driver doesnt need to be cut apart.

Knowing the L of the driver allows calculation of the BL which is better to be input rather than measured. 

I am pretty sure Matt is ready to start measuring smaller drivers until we can get a larger amp that will allow us to take subs to their limits. 

Eric
Image Dynamics


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

Eric Stevens said:


> Laser correlates the actual measurement (BL KMS etc) to the actual position of the drivers diaphragm. Without this it is just calculated by looking at back emf off the speaker. This leaves a large possibility for errors. FYI Just because the VC is centered on the top plate does not mean it is centered in the middle of the magnetic field.
> 
> Actual measured mass is necessary for proper specifications calculation, If this can be provided then the driver doesnt need to be cut apart.
> 
> ...


Agree on the larger amp.

However, with enough diligence you can determine the point where power compression kicks in, and it's generally pretty low, even with the beefiest subwoofers. Since the test is in free air, and not bandwidth limited, you run out of excursion pretty quick anyway. 

So, with more SPL, high power oriented subwoofers the larger amp will be nice, but still not necessary.

As for the laser? We've all felt that pain. It's not easy trying to derive the values needed for an accurate test, but that's what we've been given here. A standard Klippel, with no laser attachment.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I think your post is trying to insinuate something...or you lack reading comprehension...or both.



BoostedNihilist said:


> this insinuates that the previous testers were using half assed methods to produce half assed results.. surely this is not what you mean?


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

> I think your post is trying to insinuate something...or you lack reading comprehension...or both.


how can a lack of reading comprehension insinuate something? this is not possible.. nice try thinky dude.

Unless you think poorly of yourself, or those in posession of the machine there is no possible way my post could have insinuated anything.

edit: wow, yes, apparently I lack reading comprehension. Im leaving my mistake up there for all to see because I personally don't have a huge problem with being wrong sometimes.



> At what point is "good enough?" I think Matt is wanting to take data collection and analysis to another level, but people are complaining it is taking too long. If you want half-assed results for the sake of results, I m sure that could have been done by now.


'good enough' had already been established by NP and Vanman. The only way your statement makes any sense as justification is with implication. Your statement definitely implies that their methods are of a lower level and half assed. Either that, or it implies that matt is a complete idiot and can't do easily what others have done easily... Either way.. that definitely plays to your avatar


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

BoostedNihilist said:


> nice try thinky dude.


ANNNDDD the sig files get bigger

You gotta admit.. it was a good one.....


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The tone of your post, and the invalid inflammatory choice of words was what was insinuating. 

My statement never said anything about the previous users of the machine. But rather it talked about Matt wanting to provide accurate and precise data.

So I guess in your lack of reading everything, you skipped the part where I mentioned that Dr. Klippel himself has remotely ran this machine and he himself was having problems with the data. Now if the man who invented the damned machine is having issues with it, how are you to fault anyone else who is having issues?



BoostedNihilist said:


> how can a lack of reading comprehension insinuate something? this is not possible.. nice try thinky dude.
> 
> Unless you think poorly of yourself, or those in posession of the machine there is no possible way my post could have insinuated anything.
> 
> ...


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> Now if the man who invented the damned machine is having issues with it, how are you to fault anyone else who is having issues?


so it's ****ed.. send it to Spence.


----------



## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

lycan said:


> That's not accurate.
> 
> After Jeff left the forum, he requested (not demanded) the Klippel be sent to him (he paid for it), since its value to the forum had been ... "diminished".
> 
> ...


Who's Jeff?


----------



## pyropoptrt (Jun 11, 2006)

Sex Cells said:


> Who's Jeff?


Jeff = werewolf = lycan


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

pyropoptrt said:


> Jeff = Lycan speaking in 3rd person.


Fixt

and when that starts happening, listen for the howl.


----------



## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

chad said:


> ANNNDDD the sig files get bigger
> 
> You gotta admit.. it was a good one.....


I left it up there because I too am a great fan of irony.. even if it makes me look like a giant douche


----------



## 86mr2 (Apr 29, 2005)

pyropoptrt said:


> Jeff = werewolf = lycan


= George is getting upset!


----------



## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

I thought Jeff was MVM. Confused.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

thehatedguy said:


> you skipped the part where I mentioned that Dr. Klippel himself has remotely ran this machine and he himself was having problems with the data. Now if the man who invented the damned machine is having issues with it, how are you to fault anyone else who is having issues?


How exactly did he run in it remotely?

You have one interface to a computer and that's a USB port. So, I guess if a netmeeting was set up, he could conceivably run the Klippel, but I'd hardly call that a conclusive measure of the equipment's performance. The only variables he'd have access to are the setup parameters in the software itself. 

He'd have no ability to control any other factors of the test, and while npdang, and myself maintain that it's pretty plug and play, your side is making the stance that a test rig, clean electrical power, etc, etc, all make a difference.

So what is it? If all those factors make a difference then how can it be conclusive evidence that the machine is faulty by a mere remote test, ran through a netmeeting, regardless of the person setting the parameters?

The only variance I found when using the machine was when I supplied different amounts of power. Great for showing how heat is a MF to a motor assembly.

If Dr. Klippel did indeed find unacceptable variance it sounds like the first step would be to have the unit calibrated back at the lab. I'm surprised he didn't suggest this. The documentation states that calibration after initial should not be necessary, but, if it went back to the lab, I'm sure they could find out what's wrong with it. 

Interesting that he didn't suggest that.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

goodstuff said:


> I thought Jeff was MVM. Confused.


How dare you assume Jeff drives a minivan.


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

he rides a horse.


----------



## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

MiniVanMan said:


> How dare you assume Jeff drives a minivan.





chad said:


> he rides a horse.


Oh noes, I thought he drove a Klippel? 

Tempted to cat pic the hell out of this thread, since it's pretty much become the equivalent of a sad joke. Please don't make me do it.


----------



## MiniVanMan (Jun 28, 2005)

chad said:


> he rides a horse.


Only because horses beg him to.


----------



## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

MiniVanMan said:


> Only because horses beg him to.


Not touching that one with a 10 foot beastelaity pole.


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

MiniVanMan said:


> Agree on the larger amp.
> 
> However, with enough diligence you can determine the point where power compression kicks in, and it's generally pretty low, even with the beefiest subwoofers. Since the test is in free air, and not bandwidth limited, you run out of excursion pretty quick anyway.
> 
> So, with more SPL, high power oriented subwoofers the larger amp will be nice, but still not necessary.


Everyone one wants the Bl vs X, l vs X, and Kms vs X curves etc and to get these accurately on a subwoofer such as our ID12V.3 we need more power than 800 watts RMS and this driver has a 17mm xmax one way.

The test will only complete if we set the limit of the test below the excursion capabilities of the driver. 

Remember that the Klippel is using a white/pink noise to exercise the driver not a sine wave so to avoid distortion you need at least 6dB of headroom above the RMS power level needed. When the Klippel sees distortion or clipping is errors out the test and wont complete. 

Eric


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

MiniVanMan said:


> How exactly did he run in it remotely?
> 
> You have one interface to a computer and that's a USB port. So, I guess if a netmeeting was set up, he could conceivably run the Klippel, but I'd hardly call that a conclusive measure of the equipment's performance. The only variables he'd have access to are the setup parameters in the software itself.
> 
> ...


Remote desktop 

It is plug an play but since it derives and calculates everything off the back emf of the driver any outside noise or distortion will interfere with the test. We could not even get LPM to complete at all. LSi was a hit and miss with about 10% of the tests completing.

Proper clamping of the driver give you a more repeatable result, this I know from years of experience. Speakers are a resonant device and that resonance can and will affect the impedance curve which is how parameters are calculated.

As I have said earlier Matt is ready to test smaller drivers and will have the amplfier power necessary to test larger drivers very soon. 

Eric 
Image Dynamics


----------



## el_chupo_ (May 27, 2007)

Eric Stevens said:


> Remote desktop
> 
> It is plug an play but since it derives and calculates everything off the back emf of the driver any outside noise or distortion will interfere with the test. We could not even get LPM to complete at all. LSi was a hit and miss with about 10% of the tests completing.
> 
> ...


When can we expect info on your component sets? I would love to see the XS series tested.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

ID really doesn't have amps on hand of sufficient power to test large drivers?

That's quite shocking, and embarrassing.

Don't you sell large drivers? How do you test them?


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It's one thing to drive speakers to excursion levels using a sine wave, and that could be done fairly easy IB. But to drive a high excursion sub to it's limits using noise is another thing. They do have LMS and use LMS to test speakers, but the KDA does it a different way...a way that they haven't needed to prepare for before now.

I know I was under the assumption before this whole thing got out of hand that the KDA ussed a sine sweep at different voltage levels to test the speaker. However this proved not to be the case.


----------



## DS-21 (Apr 16, 2005)

I'm just saying that I would expect a speaker company to have a number of high-powered amps on hand, some in service for quality testing and some on reserve in case one of the ones in use for quality testing fails.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You can drive pretty much any speaker to it's limits free air with a 1000 watt amp using sine waves. 

Not so much using 'noise.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

DS-21 said:


> I'm just saying that I would expect a speaker company to have a number of high-powered amps on hand, some in service for quality testing and some on reserve in case one of the ones in use for quality testing fails.


We have many large amplifiers. They are 400 to 800 watts per channel. Klippel doesn't like any of them in bridged configuration.

Eric


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## AAAAAAA (Oct 5, 2007)

^What doesn't it like when they are bridged?


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## jp88 (Jun 25, 2007)

Eric Stevens said:


> As I have said earlier Matt is ready to test smaller drivers and will have the amplfier power necessary to test larger drivers very soon.
> 
> Eric
> Image Dynamics


I have one question. Is the klippel ready to test drivers or is it "so messed up and inconsistent that Dr klippel himself couldn't get it to work?

I would prefer to see eric or matt answer this question. I like to hear things from the horses mouth so to speak.



Ps its nearing 6 months.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Way to misquote someone.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

AAAAAAA said:


> ^What doesn't it like when they are bridged?


there is no ground, both "positive and negative" are driven.
Same reason it's a bad idea to toss a scope on a bridged amp, the probe shield is safety ground.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

jp88 said:


> I have one question. Is the klippel ready to test drivers or is it "so messed up and inconsistent that Dr klippel himself couldn't get it to work?
> 
> I would prefer to see eric or matt answer this question. I like to hear things from the horses mouth so to speak.
> 
> Ps its nearing 6 months.


A technical representative from Klippel has been working with Matt to get through the problems, we have also sent them several of our test results as well as having them remote desktop to run some tests remotely. Some of the problems experienced they have been unable to explain and are not consistently happening. 

Its ready with the exception of limitations caused by lack of power.

Eric


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

el_chupo_ said:


> When can we expect info on your component sets? I would love to see the XS series tested.


CTX65CS will be the first ID component set we will publish results on. 

After that we want to use it as it was intended as a service to DIYMA.

Eric


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## Ricci (Sep 30, 2008)

Since noise is the the signal used to determine the X curves and linearity, and the Klippel doesn't like for the amp to be bridged, it seems that a VERY powerful amp is needed for long excursion subwoofers. 

Is the signal used by the Klippel set to a certain bandwidth limitation, or is it user definable? Pink, or white?


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Ricci said:


> Since noise is the the signal used to determine the X curves and linearity, and the Klippel doesn't like for the amp to be bridged, it seems that a VERY powerful amp is needed for long excursion subwoofers.
> 
> Is the signal used by the Klippel set to a certain bandwidth limitation, or is it user definable? Pink, or white?


Given that the driver is not in a box, it don't take a whole lot. A good sized pro amp like a crest 8001 or 9001 would do it with glee and live forever doing it. don't have to worry about it growing legs and walking away either, they are heavy mofros.


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## Matt Borgardt (Mar 26, 2006)

6 hours of cutting and welding will yield this...


need to finish the welding and grind down...( ran out of gas ) 


As for the amps the test can be band width limited and have already been down this road and thank you for the suggestion. 
Right now there may be a problem with the machine itself, it will not read "RE" correctly and am working on what this problem might be. In the past I dismissed this as a error due to amp but now this problem will not go away. The unit has not be calibrated since it was made... ( yes!!! I have gone over all cables and made new ones as well ) at this time I may need to send it back to Germany for a calibration... Just so everyone knows the unit can not be calibrated here as per Klippel.

I will Keep everyone up dated.


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## Foglght (Aug 2, 2007)

iDtech said:


> The unit has not be calibrated since it was made... ( yes!!! I have gone over all cables and made new ones as well ) at this time I may need to send it back to Germany for a calibration... Just so everyone knows the unit can not be calibrated here as per Klippel.
> 
> I will Keep everyone up dated.


Worked fine for everyone else?


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## yermolovd (Oct 10, 2005)

nah they rezults iz skeeewed.


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

cajunner said:


> well, let me be the first to voice my displeasure...
> 
> it's just astounding to me that after 6 months we get a rack fab photo and a possible send off back to Germany, because the unit is "malfunctioning"
> 
> ...


This is taking way too long I agree. But no one is being negligent.

The Rack is something that Matt has been working on and is not required to complete tests but will assist in providing more accurate results.

The Klippel has been giving errors and not running tests from the beginning. this has been clearly stated multiple times.

Matt has spent many hours on the phone with Klippel trying to work through the issues, call and verify if you dont trust the information provided. 

We have gotten tests to run to completion and with what I would believe is accurate data. this has been with drivers 8" and smaller that don't require a larger un-bridged amplifier. Problem is this would only happen about 1 in 10 times trying to complete a test. One of the errors was the Re for a 4 ohm driver would be calculated at 22.950ohms when is should be 3.5 ohms. Subsequent 

From the beginning we have been unable to run LPM tests and just got this functioning with the help of Klippel techs. Still the results are only good if the Re come out right. 

Thought we had everything worked out with the exception of needing more power, and now we cannot get a test to complete at all with correct Re (DCR) of the driver or even close. this makes any and all data questionable as the unit is basing all calculations off back emf and impedance which will both be affected. 

Matt might not write complete and detailed posts so sorry if his posts dont convey the complete message.

Eric


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## Ricci (Sep 30, 2008)

chad said:


> Given that the driver is not in a box, it don't take a whole lot. A good sized pro amp like a crest 8001 or 9001 would do it with glee and live forever doing it. don't have to worry about it growing legs and walking away either, they are heavy mofros.


I'm still not so sure. It depends on the signal used to a large extent, which I'm still trying to determine exactly what that is. For your average stuff it'd be plenty, but these days there are a lot of sub drivers claiming 20+ mm xmax with Xmech's over 30mm. It takes a lot of power to drive a sub to 40-60mm p2p with noise, even in free air. A 9001 would be a good choice though. I've seen some going for not much over $1K and even a few 10001's for under $1.5K.


I own 4 Crest 8002's BTW.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

an 8001 will easily drive a driver with no enclosure to full excursion...... we have been over this with someone else who had this unit.... he used one of my amps 

Although I totally agree with your assertion if the sub were in a moderate to small enclosure, especially sealed.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

How many Klippels are out in the wild? Like...the full machine...


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

ryan s said:


> How many Klippels are out in the wild? Like...the full machine...



Here we observe the klippel in it's native habitat. 










God i'm a dork.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

[Steve Irwin voice]

I'm gonna get real close and poke it with a stick. God, he's pissed off now!

[/Steve Irwin voice]


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

ryan s said:


> [Steve Irwin voice]
> 
> I'm gonna get real close and poke it with a stick. God, he's pissed off now!
> 
> [/Steve Irwin voice]


hahahahahahahahah. aye mate.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

at least you did not put yer finger in it's bum.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Bear Grylls would have made a stand for it out of ivy vines.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Then Les Stroud would live for a month off the carcasses of Bear and the Klippel. 




...cause, like, Les is waaaay tougher than Bear Grylls, nomesayin?


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

Funny how the real survivalists say Bear and Les ain't all that :surprised:


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Funny how Bear has the history to back his badassnes up.


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Bear takes a film crew with him, and stays in hotels. Pansy.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

And a ropes expert or two.

Has this thread been made in OT? Bear vs Les 

Edit: It has now been made  http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/off-topic/79953-whos-more-ultimate-survivalist.html


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## 86mr2 (Apr 29, 2005)

From the Klippel to survivalists - can cat pics be far off?


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

86mr2 said:


> From the Klippel to survivalists - can cat pics be far off?


It's going to take a while, they have to be sent back to icanhascheezburger.com for calibrationz/


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)




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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)




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## 86mr2 (Apr 29, 2005)

LOLZ


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

Lewis Medlock reminds us to watch the **** out while hunting for the klippel in the wilderness










These poor fellows learned the lesson the hard way... 

Looking for the Klippel is serious bidness.





weeeeeeeeeee


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