# Cone Area: 1 Sub Vs 2



## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

If cone area and Xmax is so important or a defining factor, how is it that the single Sundown E-10 I shoved in my friends car outperformed his previous twin 10" set up?

Sundown Audio E-10 Subwoofer – Project Update | surfandsound


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Cancellation between drivers. I'm going to ASSuME the two subs were out of phase, either with each other and/or with the rest of the drivers in the car. 

Still, there are other factors as well.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

We don't know what enclosure was being used, what power they were rated to handle/being fed, orientation of the sub enclosure, etc etc.


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## upgrayedd (Apr 19, 2011)

power, enclosure, cabin gain, etc


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

*Enclosure:* the twin set up was sealed, separated enclosure for each, around 0.75 cubes each, which is why i had to pad the (one of) the enclosure to make it comply with the advice from sundown 0.5 cubes. 

The Sundown was playing on its own, without the second Vibe sub.

*Power:* around 300 
*
Orientation:* firing towards the rear of the trunk 

I thought 2 X ... was supposed to trump a single sub?

Vibe Slick 10



Xmax on the slick isn't all that. But surely there's more to a twin set up than xmax. So why did it still get whipped. Am I right in concluding:

1) That one good sub will out do two bad subs?

2) that cone area isn't the be-all and-end all?

http://vibeaudio.co.uk/manuals/subwoofers/slick_subwoofer_manual.pdf

vs. 

Sundown E-10


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## upgrayedd (Apr 19, 2011)

1.) often
2.)depends

You cant just use blanket assumptions. You have cone area, xmax, thermal power handling, and optimized enclosure. You can take the nicest xbl^2 motored work of art subwoofer and it will sound like garbage in the wrong enclosure or with an amp that is driven to distortion. On the contrary, you can take a ho hum sub, and when used in a particular application, it may work amazing. The pyle blue wave comes to mind. these things are cheap, yet 2 15s IB and they seem to do very well. 

"loud" is subjective when you have no measurement equipment. A peak at 40 hz may make something seem louder when it is same or less other areas in the freq response. Get Winisd and model both of these subs in the same enclosure, see if the results jive with your findings.


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## ATOMICTECH62 (Jan 24, 2009)

You just learned that 2 cheap subs wont sound as good as one good sub.
This is why everybody on this forum tells people not to waste their money on flea market junk and save up for something decent.

You even gave the Vibes the benefit of a correct size box and they couldn't out perform a single decent sub that was just dropped in.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Those Vibe subs have a higher EBP, suggesting they perform best in a ported enclosure. Their EBP is 88, which the E10 looks to be 68, suggesting it's likley right at home in either sealed or ported. 

Vibe has 6mm Xmax, E10 looks to have 14mm. Further the cone can travel, the more authority a sub can apply to the frequencies produced, or so so seems to hold true quite often. 

In the end, it comes down to cheap lower quality subs vs one higher quality sub. Often, the latter wins, unless it's placed in a very poor enclosure while the cheaper are in a much better one designed for them.


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## pjhabit (Aug 12, 2008)

It doesn't matter if it's a cheap sub or not, you have to add Xmax to the equation to determine the total linear displacement. The Sundown has twice as much excursion or more than the Vibe...so it moves at least twice as much air (assuming Sd is the same). 

The linear displacement (Vb) can give you an idea of what setup will be louder in a sealed box (Vb = Sd*Xmax). But it's just a general guideline & in no way definitive...there's just too many variables, it's like predicting the weather.

I think the reason a lot of people say "cone area is king" is because they're assuming all else being equal. And using less Xmax to reach a certain SPL keeps the cone more linear... which makes for lower distortion & a more efficient system.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

pjhabit said:


> It doesn't matter if it's a cheap sub or not, you have to add Xmax to the equation to determine the total linear displacement. The Sundown has twice as much excursion or more than the Vibe...so it moves at least twice as much air (assuming Sd is the same).


I don't know about *Excursion* for either the Sundown or the Vibe. Xmax figure may differ but from what I understand, *Xmax* and *Excursion* are two separate things.


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## pjhabit (Aug 12, 2008)

captainscarlett said:


> I don't know about *Excursion* for either the Sundown or the Vibe. Xmax figure may differ but from what I understand, *Xmax* and *Excursion* are two separate things.






> Xmax - Maximum linear peak (or sometimes peak-to-peak) *excursion* (in mm) of the cone.


So you're saying 'linear excursion' would've been more PC?


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

Xmax is the measure of excursion.


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## invecs (Jul 30, 2005)

Maybe the e10 has a higher sensitivity.


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## quality_sound (Dec 25, 2005)

invecs said:


> Maybe the e10 has a higher sensitivity.


Irrelevant. It would only get louder quicker.


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## HiloDB1 (Feb 25, 2011)

All things being equal besides cone area the larger cone area setup will produce more output. Simple as that. There is no getting around it.

Look at it this way: If instead of replacing his 2 Vibe subs with a single Sundown e10 if he had just removed one of the 2 Vibe subs he had would it have been louder with just the 1 Vibe sub?

I'm going to guess no.


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## Weigel21 (Sep 8, 2014)

Depends on weather the two were out of phase with one another or not.


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## HiloDB1 (Feb 25, 2011)

Weigel21 said:


> Depends on weather the two were out of phase with one another or not.


Would also depend if the single sub was a DVC and also wired out of phase with itself


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

pjhabit said:


> So you're saying 'linear excursion' would've been more PC?


Its not linear *or* peak

The "xmax" measurement is *one way linear excursion*, not peak to peak.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

xmax
"The distance the coil can travel whilst staying in the magnetic gap"

excursion
"Excursion is how far the woofer actually will move under operation"


For arguments sake; TC Sounds has and xmax of 18mm and a peak to peak of 3", and JL has a xmax of 18mm and a peak to peak of 2.25" what's the value of putting emphasis on xmax? If in reality the cone can and probably will move much further than xmax again, why the emphasis by everyone, on xmax?


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

captainscarlett said:


> xmax
> "The distance the coil can travel whilst staying in the magnetic gap"
> 
> excursion
> ...



You're looking at xmax vs xmech (the distance the cone can actually mechanically move, albeit no longer linear and in the gap).
Just because a subwoofer can travel further than the point where it stays linear, does not mean it's a wise or safe thing to do. You need control of the cone for proper performance.

You look at the xmax (again, the *one-way linear stroke*) and the SD of the driver to determine the potential for moving air. The larger the cone size in SD, the more air it can displace, the more stroke it has, the more air it can displace. Bigger cones with more xmax means they can displace more air. But that's simply one part of the performance equation- it doesn't take into account how it will _sound_ while moving that much air.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

I understand the difference between xmax and xmech, and understand that xmax is a measurement within the magnetic gap, and i kinda understand that being within the magnetic gap is better than being outside of it. 

But isn't the truth that all factors come into play, not just emphasis or obsession about a singular T/S parameter, and within the car audio world, there is an obsession with xmax!?! BL product, Mms, SD (as you've pointed out), Q's it all plays a wider part of what's going on. But again 99% of the time a thread always seems to lead toward xmax as being a gauge if how good a sub is; "I'd go for the ID Max over the W6v3 because the ID has more xmax" ... kinda talk!


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

captainscarlett said:


> I understand the difference between xmax and xmech, and understand that xmax is a measurement within the magnetic gap, and i kinda understand that being within the magnetic gap is better than being outside of it.
> 
> But isn't the truth that all factors come into play, not just emphasis or obsession about a singular T/S parameter, and within the car audio world, there is an obsession with xmax!?! BL product, Mms, SD (as you've pointed out), Q's it all plays a wider part of what's going on. But again 99% of the time a thread always seems to lead toward xmax as being a gauge if how good a sub is; "I'd go for the ID Max over the W6v3 because the ID has more xmax" ... kinda talk!


I think the emphasis on xmax is just a general way of saying that displacement is the key. Xmax, xmech, excursion, etc. are all slightly different ways of talking about the same thing. Sound is caused by moving air, it's that simple. The more air that can be moved, the more SPL potential a speaker has. To some extent the other variables don't really matter, the subwoofer that has the most displacement has the potential of being the loudest. 

Another thing to remember is that there is usually a lot of distortion from subwoofers, the distortion gives the speaker the illusion of being louder. Most people actually prefer a good amount of distortion in their sub-bass.


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## captainscarlett (Mar 15, 2011)

gijoe said:


> The more air that can be moved, the more SPL potential a speaker has.
> 
> Another thing to remember is that there is usually a lot of distortion from subwoofers, the distortion gives the speaker the illusion of being louder. Most people actually prefer a good amount of distortion in their sub-bass.


SPL seems to have always been a part of car audio, but has gone from strength to strength, not to say i didn't like my SA-12 for SQ, but the SPL was way more than I needed.


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## Orion525iT (Mar 6, 2011)

There are some that will also claim that a smaller driver with greater xmax will not have the same presence or authority as a larger driver with less xmax. Even if Vd is identical and they measure the same SPL across the bandpass. 

^Have fun with that.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Orion525iT said:


> There are some that will also claim that a smaller driver with greater xmax will not have the same presence or authority as a larger driver with less xmax. Even if Vd is identical and they measure the same SPL across the bandpass.
> 
> ^Have fun with that.


If displacement is the same, those "some" people are wrong. A smaller driver will have a more narrow dispersion patter, so if you aren't sitting on axis, and the driver is crossed too high, then the SPL of the high frequencies will suffer. But, displacement is displacement. There are certainly reasons to use different sized drivers to meet certain goals, but if displacement is equal, output is equal.


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