# Small amp for tweeters or?



## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

I want more power for my midbass speakers (SB Acoustics SB17MFC35-4).

My system sounds really good, but I'm craving more volume while keeping clean sound if possible. At this point, the power to the mids seems to be the weak point to keep the system balanced.

I'm running 2 way + sub active on deh-80prs.
Rockford prime 300 for mids + tweets and Alpine mrd-500 powering 2 JL 12w3v3s.

I have more than enough bass, and tweeters have to be on minimum gain and -7ish on the deck to keep balance.

I have all this untapped power on the 4ch, so I could easily bridge for more power to the mids.

First question I need to answer is can the speakers take much more power?

The SBs are rated at 60Wrms each, but I suspect (hope) that's a full range rating, and they can take more when bandpassed. I'm running them 80hz - 2khz, 24db slope.

Right now they get about 75ish watts.
If I were to bridge the 4ch amp, I'd have about 200w RMS available per side. 


If the SBs can take more power, I'm thinking about getting a small amp for the tweeters so I can bridge the 4ch. I don't want to use deck power for the tweets, as right now I have the 80prs amp turned off and consensus seems to be using it will sacrifice SQ for the whole system.

Have never had a whole lot to spend on my audio stuff, so I'm looking for a cost-effective solution. so if this is an option, I'm looking for either a small tweeter amp that's not too much, or finding a 4ch I can trade up to that has more power.


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## norurb (Jun 28, 2013)

My 80PRS is powering my tweets just fine. And I have a Zapco st-4xsq (bridged) powering my mids. All in network mode of course. I really feel no need for a separate amp on the tweets. Worth a try on your system.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

norurb said:


> My 80PRS is powering my tweets just fine. And I have a Zapco st-4xsq (bridged) powering my mids. All in network mode of course. I really feel no need for a separate amp on the tweets. Worth a try on your system.


Interesting. I've heard that the deck wouldn't be able to power tweeters well enough to match with that kind of power to the mids. 

I'll have to try it and see what I get!

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## OneGun (Jun 15, 2018)

norurb said:


> My 80PRS is powering my tweets just fine. And I have a Zapco st-4xsq (bridged) powering my mids. All in network mode of course. I really feel no need for a separate amp on the tweets. Worth a try on your system.


So your tweets are running directly from the 80PRS? Not through an amp?


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## norurb (Jun 28, 2013)

OneGun said:


> So your tweets are running directly from the 80PRS? Not through an amp?


Correct.


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## OneGun (Jun 15, 2018)

norurb said:


> Correct.


So if it's setup that way, and in network mode, am I correct in assuming that you have your tweeters wired to the rear speaker outputs from the 80PRS?

And do you still have all the network controls like crossover, levels, slope, etc.?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I would honestly just get a little 2ch amp for the tweeters (RF Prime to match the existing 4ch) and call it a day. I'm not saying the headunit won't power the tweeters OK but if there's anything you don't want to clip an amp on it's tweeters in my honest opinion.

Onegun-you still have all the network mode tuning ability when using the internal headunit amp to power speakers.


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## OneGun (Jun 15, 2018)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Onegun-you still have all the network mode tuning ability when using the internal headunit amp to power speakers.



That's crazy. I never even thought of that being a thing. 

In this situation, then, are the tweets the rear speaker outputs?


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

I honestly don't remember which outputs do what on the 80prs. Haven't had that headunit in several years. I believe tweets are the rears though. But yeah you can use the internal headunit amp to power a 2-way front. To be honest, if the car is just a beater car or dedicated tow rig it wouldn't be a bad idea with VERY efficient speakers.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

I decided to test a few things out to see if running my tweeters off the deck amp would be an option , so I busted out the test tones, o-scope and volt meter.

I've heard a lot of debate whether or not you can actually use the deck for tweeters while running in network mode, but nothing really solid.

Let me bring the facts.

Yes, you can use the internal amp on the 80prs in network mode.

With the internal amp turned on while in network mode, all the RCAs remain active (even the high). So you could even run 2 pairs of tweeters if you really wanted to, but all the settings would be the same. The REAR speaker level output is for high (green, violet) , FRONT is for mid.

However, the internal amp can NOT run clean even close to full volume. 

When I scoped the unit running RCAs to my amp, I found the highest clean volume with amp gains on minimum was 60/62. I measured about 14 out of the 16 frequency bands for the EQ.

At 61, one or two frequencies start to clip slightly, and at max several of them were clipped.

Many people say it can run at max volume with no clipping, but that is only true for some frequencies, some will clip.

I scoped the speaker level output with tweeter levels set to 0/0, flat EQ and using a 0db tone.

I found that almost all frequencies started clipping at 48/62 volume.

YUCK.

I measured that voltage with my multimeter at vol set to 47 and found it could produce on average, 7 volts.

Following formula (V squared / impedence), I calculated with a 4 ohm tweeter, you can expect 12.25 watts rms per channel of clean power from the internal amp. YUCK.

Having a max volume of 47 is not gonna do it for me. I want an upgrade, not sacrifice noise floor for more overall volume.

So I've decided to get a small amp for the tweeters, only question now is which one. I don't really have a lot of space since my sub amp and speaker amp are under each of the front seats. I did discover that my speaker amp can slide under my seat Rail and provide enough room for a mini amp.

For something larger I would have to move the subwoofer amp to the trunk which would take some doing, but possible. 

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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Well, do not get the NVX MVP4 amplifier. I swapped that one out with a Pioneer 75 wpc and the difference was noticeable running my SB29 tweeters and Focal PS 165 mid woofers active. This is the only amplifier where I have ever noticed a difference in SQ when swapping amplifiers.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

V8toilet said:


> Well, do not get the NVX MVP4 amplifier. I swapped that one out with a Pioneer 75 wpc and the difference was noticeable running my SB29 tweeters and Focal PS 165 mid woofers active. This is the only amplifier where I have ever noticed a difference in SQ when swapping amplifiers.


Oh wow.
That one is reviewed really well, and cost more than my Rockford amp! I was hoping to get something decent for under 100 bucks, but that's not seeming very likely. Damn, I don't need that much power.

What amp did you switch to?

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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Just what I suspected for the internal amp. Has there ever been a headunit amp that played clean anywhere close to the top of the volume range? My cheap suggestions are these two. The Zapco I know a guy running one on his large format Morel tweeters and loves it. Never a problem with it to my knowledge.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zapco-ST-2...006387?hash=item5b4c9746b3:g:o-YAAOSwPEFboljf
I think the Zapco would sound better but here's a tiny option that should be solid. My experience with the Picasso Nano was good for the price and size but far from great given there are better options if you're willing to take up more space and/or spend more money. It sounded OK but lacked refinement. https://www.ebay.com/itm/SOUNDSTREA...212160&hash=item23794e5af0:g:LNsAAOSwa~BYVH67


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

V8toilet said:


> Well, do not get the NVX MVP4 amplifier. I swapped that one out with a Pioneer 75 wpc and the difference was noticeable running my SB29 tweeters and Focal PS 165 mid woofers active. This is the only amplifier where I have ever noticed a difference in SQ when swapping amplifiers.


If it's the same amp inside as the PPI Atom I know exactly what you're talking about. Man that amp sounded terrible! Took one for the team and bought the 4ch to try out bridged on my Scan 5f's in dash playing 800 and up and YUCK. Then lost my ass when I sold it but it wasn't worth keeping not even for an install in my boat. Good looking amp though...


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Just what I suspected for the internal amp. Has there ever been a headunit amp that played clean anywhere close to the top of the volume range?


HAH! 

Probably not.
I thought if there was going to be one, it might be 80prs.

Maybe the Sony MEX-XB100BT, but it has a true 160-watt internal amp.

Thanks for the rec, I've had my eye on zapco amps for a while now. In fact, I thought about swapping out my Rockford for one of those, maybe some day.

looks like I'll have some moving around and rewiring to do if I get that one. Will need to think about it.

so no one really answered this directly, but it seems everyone agrees I should have more power to the speakers haha.

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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Ifixtheinternet said:


> Oh wow.
> That one is reviewed really well, and cost more than my Rockford amp! I was hoping to get something decent for under 100 bucks, but that's not seeming very likely. Damn, I don't need that much power.
> 
> What amp did you switch to?
> ...


Yeah, don’t take those reviews seriously. Every time I left a negative review on Sonic they didn’t post it so I know they doctor their reviews. The Pioneer I replaced it with was a Pioneer D9500F. Pioneer doesn’t sell that model anymore and replaced it with the D8604, which I also have and is excellent. I did own a Alpine 445U power pack and it sounded good.


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## OneGun (Jun 15, 2018)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> Has there ever been a headunit amp that played clean anywhere close to the top of the volume range?



I want to say yes. And this has mystified me since I got back into car audio. Back in the 90's, it seems like mine and all my boy's HU's were fk'n awesome and we were killing it for years, nobody had an amp... just HU's and 6x9s. 

I had a Sony with some Eclipse 6x9's in an old POS Cavalier. M buddy had a Clarion HU in a Buick Century with factory speakers... everybody in town always complimented both our systems. 

We used to open the doors, flip the key on, and jam tracks out at bonfire parties... the damn things rocked, I swear... clean too. 

Of course, I smoked a lot of pot and drank a lot in the 90's, but I fk'n swear, there was a time. That or I'm nuts (possible).

Now you can spend close to a grand on an HU and speakers and it still sounds like ****.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Ok so after measuring everything, it seems there is almost nothing that will fit side-by-side with the existing amp under the pass. Seat area like I was thinking about, so a very small amp as far as length / width is not critical.

However, I discovered I've got more vertical space under there than I thought, about 5.75".

The Zapco ST-2B is almost exactly 2" high.
The existing amp is just under 2" high.

So right now I've got my heart set on the Zapco, if I can make it work. Of course while I was thinking about it the price went up haha.

I'm hoping that .75 inches between the amps and 1" above the Rockford will be enough air space.
I could make a sort of standoff that raises the Rockford up off of the zapco.

Thoughts?

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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

If size doesn't matter and you want SQ and power for less money than the Pioneer D8604 is hard to beat. I have this amplifier and it sounds very good. 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pioneer-GM-D8604-1-200W-Class-D-4-Channel-Amp/26973204

This is tiny for the power but not sure how good it sounds. https://store.soundsolutionsaudio.com/products/banda-pocket-bd-250-2.html

This is a bit expensive but sure to sound good. https://www.crutchfield.com/p_161ACM2300/AudioControl-ACM-2-300.html?tp=35757
And the same for this one https://www.crutchfield.com/p_13698600/JL-Audio-XD200-2v2.html?tp=35757

These are interesting because they use the power from your receive to power the amplifier. https://www.crutchfield.com/p_575PM100X1/Rockford-Fosgate-PM100X1.html?tp=35757

I own the SB17 6.5" woofers and have a Pioneer PRS D4200F powering them with an 80 db L-R HP and 2500 db L-R LP and they handle the power that amplifier gives them easily. Having the HP L-R at 80 db does help with power handling.


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## cycleguy (Feb 10, 2018)

V8toilet said:


> If size doesn't matter and you want SQ and power for less money than the Pioneer D8604 is hard to beat. I have this amplifier and it sounds very good.
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pioneer-GM-D8604-1-200W-Class-D-4-Channel-Amp/26973204
> 
> ...


Another vote for the Pioneer GM-D8604 amp these are very well made and have a great look to them I have just bought the exact same amp from Walmart to run along with the GM 9605 I already have


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

V8toilet said:


> If size doesn't matter and you want SQ and power for less money than the Pioneer D8604 is hard to beat. I have this amplifier and it sounds very good.
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pioneer-GM-D8604-1-200W-Class-D-4-Channel-Amp/26973204
> 
> ...


Well, size is still a factor, but I don't need a mini amp. I need something 10x8x2 or smaller if I want to put it under the seat. 

I get anything bigger then I have to move one of my amps, purchase more power wire, RCAs and tear the car apart to re route stuff, that's why I want to keep it under the seat with the other amp if possible.

Those all seem like good solutions, but the Zapco is only $80-$100 and already seems like more than enough power for a pair of tweeters. I'd like to keep it at that price range if I can get something that will sound good.

I was also looking at the Kenwood KAC 5207 and the JBL GX-A602. 

Kenwood:
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KA...WW2DaGUf6b49tculgVqH0GkvUC_Yl7qxoCaGYQAvD_BwE

JBL:
https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_79186_JBL-GX-A602.html

Those are both even more affordable and would give me 60 or 70 watts per tweeter, which seems like plenty. They would also fit under the seat with the other Amp.

Anyone have experience or advice about one of those options?

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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Got it, the Zapco should be perfect for that and we all know they sound good. JBL makes good amplifiers but Kenwood, at least the ones I have had in the past were not the best for SQ. They could be different now though but the two I had in the past just sounded kind of lifeless to me especially once I swapped one with an old Japan made Alpine 3548. Tweeters wont use hardly any power at all and 60 wpc is way more than enough for tweeters. The one thing you have to be aware of is that Class AB requires more power in and produces more heat compared to class D so if you live in a hot climate or your power wire isn't adequate than you may run into problems. I would personally lean towards the Zapco if SQ is most important to you and you have good tweeters and the JBL if cost is more so.


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Thanks, I do have 4ga OFC throughout the car rated at 150A. I live in the PNW so doesn't get too hot, just in the summer but I'll be using AC.
There's also vents under the seat so that could help if I really needed it too.

I am leaning toward the Zapco.
They seem like the best budget amps out there.
The only problem I see with it is that my mids will get jealous, being on a Rockford amp 

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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Well, heat dissipation might be a factor with the install. All the options are class A/B, except for the JBL, which doesn't list a class.

I asked on the JBL site to find out.

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## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

The SoundQubed S4100 is another good budget but class D amplifier and it has tons of power plus it fits in that space except for its 2.25” tall. https://soundqubed.com/product/s4-100/


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## JH1973 (Apr 21, 2017)

Hillbilly SQ said:


> I honestly don't remember which outputs do what on the 80prs. Haven't had that headunit in several years. I believe tweets are the rears though. But yeah you can use the internal headunit amp to power a 2-way front. To be honest, if the car is just a beater car or dedicated tow rig it wouldn't be a bad idea with VERY efficient speakers.


You're an SB guy.On the SB-17's rated at 60w what kind of power do you think they can actually handle?I mean what would you personally max them at?


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## Ifixtheinternet (Jan 29, 2016)

Honestly, I don't know. I do believe that rating to be full range though, and I have them passed at 80hz with 24db slope. The way I'm running them, I'd expect something on the order of 2x-3x as much. So I'm going for about 175w rms.

Ive heard almost nothing about what to expect, so i guess I'm experimenting with hopes that I'll be rewarded with careful gain setting.

No risk no reward right?


JH1973 said:


> You're an SB guy.On the SB-17's rated at 60w what kind of power do you think they can actually handle?I mean what would you personally max them at?


Edit:

So I found the rating that SB uses for their input wattage.

IEC 268-5

It specifies pink noise played through the speaker, band passed 40hz-5k, 12db slopes.
The speaker must withstand this for 8 hours.

So it should handle more with an octave removed from the low end, and a steeper slope to boot.

Having more power will help with transient peaks as well.


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