# Brax speakers



## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Just curious... I hear people talk about Focal Utopia M’s (a lot) Audiofrog etc...

But nobody every discusses Brax? I wonder why that is...

Coming from the Focal Kit 7’s passive and active and quasi active for years and recently the M’s... I have been sort of molded to the Focal sound and brand...

So I had a guy offer me cash for my M’s and decided to let them go... my motivation was basically frustration I have spent weeks tuning my car - I can’t get them perfect - some songs sound brilliant others sound crap... out of 1000 songs on my iPhone at least 70% is barely listenable..

So now I thought let’s experiment with something else... Enter Brax - initially the Graphic Pro’s (glass dome tweeter phase plug midbass) immediately the car sounded more natural even without tuning I could hear potential... I mean it sounded pretty good just a little rough...

So I thought I would experiment further and decided to get the 3 way Matrix setup (the one with the passives) - spent a day installing them and another day tuning them...

All I can say is holy cow that midbass! Seriously it was like I had 2 8” subs in my doors - my sub wasn’t playing and I had to double check to see if it was playing - I mean I felt the back hit my back! Totally neutral mids and tweeters - I tried the passives with a 4 channel MX4 - honestly I can’t see how this could sound better active... 

These speakers crap all over the M’s sorry.... I spent 6 hours tuning them - and after months of tuning the M’s on and off I could not get the M’s to give me the musical experience the Brax gives...

These speakers in my car have so much bass I can easily leave my JL13W7 off... only when I play some really low bass I can hear something is missing ... general music you will think the sub is playing... 

So I don’t get it... why AF and why so much talk on the Focals and nothing on Brax speakers - even on the net... not much - strange...

Anyway I thought I would give Brax a plug... since only there amps get a mention.

Incidentally - Brax amps are in my opinion neutral sounding - when mixed with other brands the sonic signature of the speakers sometimes conflicts with the Brax sonic signature - eg Focal has a detailed or brighter signature... sometimes doesn’t work well with a Brax product. I even thought about running a “warmer” amp on my Focals at one point...

Seems to me that Brax amps with Brax speakers are the correct combination of naturalness and neutralness...

After years of tuning - I eventually found something that works and does not need to be tuned to death to sound good... 


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## locoface (Nov 9, 2016)

If you aren’t getting “natural” sound out of the focal utopia m’s you should really look at the way you are tuning... 


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

locoface said:


> If you aren’t getting “natural” sound out of the focal utopia m’s you should really look at the way you are tuning...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Focals only sounded good when the recording was great - if the recording had issues the sonic signature of the drivers made the recording sound crap... 

The Brax murdered the M’s... I used the exact same tuning on the Brax as I used on the M’s (graph wise not EQ points) the car now sounds like a home HIFI...

Never got that with M’s - tunes to the AF curve , Whitledge curve , custom curve - every curve out there and by ear - I could not get the M’s to sound half as good... 

There may be other factors at play here but my experience with the M’s is that they are very recording dependent 


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

locoface said:


> If you aren’t getting “natural” sound out of the focal utopia m’s you should really look at the way you are tuning...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Also I did a test between my 3.5wm mid with no EQ no TA - off a GS9 with Helix Pro 2 through Brax MX4 amps - it didn’t sound as good as Brax ML3 with no EQ no TA in another car running off the HU amp on a beat up JVC that would never see the light of day in my car... 

I sat there listening to the Brax ML3’s off a $100 junkyard HU that barely played thinking it sounds better than my setup... 

What it showed me was that the Brax had more potential is sounding right compared to the 3.5WM’s did... 


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## 01LSi (Jul 27, 2012)

Interesting. Good to hear more info on these. Thanks for the feedback 


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

01LSi said:


> Interesting. Good to hear more info on these. Thanks for the feedback
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Get the full setup - each driver is really good in its own right... 


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## 01LSi (Jul 27, 2012)

Elektra said:


> Get the full setup - each driver is really good in its own right...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just bought the 3wm a couple days ago from here 

Currently have the 6wm in the door. 

butttttttt at the very least I'm probably going to list the like new TBM I have (which sounds amazing) for the ML1 tweeter. I just wanna avoid Beryllium, that's the only reason.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Elektra said:


> Focals only sounded good when the recording was great - if the recording had issues the sonic signature of the drivers made the recording sound crap...
> 
> The Brax murdered the M’s... I used the exact same tuning on the Brax as I used on the M’s (graph wise not EQ points) the car now sounds like a home HIFI...
> 
> ...


Shhhhhhhhhhhh you are giving away the secret, lol!!!!


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

AudioGal said:


> Shhhhhhhhhhhh you are giving away the secret, lol!!!!


...


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Elektra said:


> ...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 haha!!!! good man, on a lighter note i am glad you have found something that brings you closer to audio nirvana !!!!


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

I don’t know if your tuning skills Electra but I’m pretty sure you had some problems at the crossover points that you might have missed, I’ll post some pictures of the electronic crossover Frequency vs acoustic frequency of my focals, these speakers plays waaay beyond the electronic crossover points and will cause so real Tonal issues, so sad I won’t be seeing any of you brax guys in the lanes


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

The Brax Matrix speakers are waaayyy under-rated on this site.
We all rave about the Utopia M's, and for good reason... but I am kinda in the same boat as Elektra:
Some days I think; _"wow this sounds amazing!"_... and some days I think; _"Meh"_.
Granted, my front stage is a bit of a Frankenstein of mixed brands.

I really love the crisp and precise sound of the Utopia Beryllium tweeter... but I often long for that smoothness of a silk dome.
The Esotar 110 is my personal favorite, but it's just too damn big! (caveat revealed; I'm a HUGE Dynaudio fanboy!)

But that's where the Brax ML Series comes into the picture... or the Sinfoni Grandioso... or the ZR Speaker Lab (also branded under Ground Zero)
I have a feeling my next set of components will go back to a silk dome, using one of the above mentioned brands.


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

What’s the knock on beryllium?


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

DaveG said:


> What’s the knock on beryllium?











Berylliosis - NORD (National Organization for Rare Disorders)







rarediseases.org


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

dgage said:


> Berylliosis - NORD (National Organization for Rare Disorders)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting read. So listening to my beryllium tweeters I can get berylliosis?


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Amazing info!!!


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

jimmydee said:


> The Brax Matrix speakers are waaayyy under-rated on this site.
> We all rave about the Utopia M's, and for good reason... but I am kinda in the same boat as Elektra:
> Some days I think; _"wow this sounds amazing!"_... and some days I think; _"Meh"_.
> Granted, my front stage is a bit of a Frankenstein of mixed brands.
> ...


Dynaudio fanboy here too, e110 is also my all time favorite tweeter, I also own grandioso mids and tweeters and is making a second set of pods to house e110’s and 12mu’s/grandioso mids because they’re the same size And these are Some of the most natural sounding Speakers to me, I’m gonna machine down the tweeter as small as I can go though, I also have a pair of Xcelsus xxm 325’s that I’m currently testing but the Utopia’s are the most revealing speaker set I’ve ever owned, these speakers misses nothing, coupled with the mosconi zero’s that has that Smooth laidback sound, every time I listen to another car and go back to mine it reminds me how detailed these things are. I’m gonna see if I can find someone with those brax speaker so I can a/b them with my collection even though I remember we swapped some in a Infiniti for some gb40’s and the gb’s bested them, not sure what model brax they were but I’m almost certain they were ML3’s that were played by a brax mx4, hopefully Skizr will chime with the speaker model.


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## dgage (Oct 1, 2013)

DaveG said:


> Interesting read. So listening to my beryllium tweeters I can get berylliosis?


No. It is encapsulated but if the tweeter is damaged such as during a crash, the beryllium could become airborne and dangerous.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Mullings said:


> Dynaudio fanboy here too, e110 is also my all time favorite tweeter, I also own grandioso mids and tweeters and is making a second set of pods to house e110’s and 12mu’s/grandioso mids because they’re the same size And these are Some of the most natural sounding Speakers to me, I’m gonna machine down the tweeter as small as I can go though, I also have a pair of Xcelsus xxm 325’s that I’m currently testing but the Utopia’s are the most revealing speaker set I’ve ever owned, these speakers misses nothing, coupled with the mosconi zero’s that has that Smooth laidback sound, every time I listen to another car and go back to mine it reminds me how detailed these things are. I’m gonna see if I can find someone with those brax speaker so I can a/b them with my collection even though I remember we swapped some in a Infiniti for some gb40’s and the gb’s bested them, not sure what model brax they were but I’m almost certain they were ML3’s that were played by a brax mx4, hopefully Skizr will chime with the speaker model.


Interested in your thoughts on the Excellsius mids - guys day it’s a DLS type sound...? 

I didn’t get the chance to listen to them though - but maybe I should...

In all seriousness last Saturday I had a guy come past my house raving about the GB25 and 10 In his car (he did a glowing review on our local FB forum here - also tested and “loved” the Ecellsius mids as well but after swapping them out with the GB’s he is sold on them) anywhoo he came past me...

I listened to his car with the GB’s and I wasn’t going to rush out and buy them after spending time with them - I even installed them in my car to see how they would sound in my car - they could not touch the Brax Graphic Pros I had in my car...

The Matrix in my opinion is just another level beyond the Graphic Pros.... the pros had the phase plug midbass the Matrix had the dust cap so the Matrix midbass was much stronger and the silk dome mids and tweeters where more linear and seemed to be more natural as well... I had some issues with upper midrange and tweeter detail with the Pros that the Matrix resolved 

Side note - these speakers are built like nothing I have ever seen in car audio - I mean I looked at the GB10’s vs the Graphic Pro tweeter and the build on the Brax is just so superior - the GB25’s speaker wire connector was too small for my cable and too tight on the housing I battled to wire them up... also on the tweeter but not as tight as the GB25’s 

My car is now passively run and I can’t say my car sounds worse vs active as I don’t feel it’s lacking anything....


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

jimmydee said:


> The Brax Matrix speakers are waaayyy under-rated on this site.
> We all rave about the Utopia M's, and for good reason... but I am kinda in the same boat as Elektra:
> Some days I think; _"wow this sounds amazing!"_... and some days I think; _"Meh"_.
> Granted, my front stage is a bit of a Frankenstein of mixed brands.
> ...


I can’t tell you how many hours I have spent trying to tune this car with the Focals and every time I leave the car I think whatever I did sounded better...

Then I would listen to 2 or 3 tracks and think crap this car sounds worse than before... the RTA doesn’t highlight any potential issues I should look at... 

Car just sounds like it’s too edgy at times - I guess if I am to be honest I have spent hours tuning a car to my liking without realizing I am trying to tune the speakers sonic signature out of the speaker and realizing that I can tame it to a degree but I cannot tune it out completely 

I realized this when I swapped over to the Brax - all of a sudden the car was easier to tune because the Brax doesn’t have a sonic signature it’s actually devoid of a signature and once you understand all this then realize that because of this the car’s tuning was more like connecting the dots rather than trying to find the illusive dots that where actually not there in the first place...

I have owned Focal for 6-7 years now and I have never had listening enjoyment as I do with the Brax... 


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Elektra said:


> I have owned Focal for 6-7 years now and I have never had listening enjoyment as I do with the Brax...


Word.


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## dcfis (Sep 9, 2016)

So the discontinued material series?


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Elektra said:


> I can’t tell you how many hours I have spent trying to tune this car with the Focals and every time I leave the car I think whatever I did sounded better...
> 
> Then I would listen to 2 or 3 tracks and think crap this car sounds worse than before... the RTA doesn’t highlight any potential issues I should look at...
> 
> ...


I recommended that you buy a MiniDSP 8x12DL before to take the guesswork out of the tuning, you should seriously consider this, some speakers are very unforgiving and will let you know when your ****ing up, and some will mask the **** up and make it sound acceptable, focal isn’t one of those, it’ll let you know when the tune isn’t right. Seriously, look into the Mini, it’ll let you reconsider how crisp and detailed all the speakers that you pass of as garbage would’ve been with a real tune. Take the guesswork out of it, you’ve spent a lot of money on equipment, the least you can do is give them a proper tune to see their true potential.


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

Wow!


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Mullings said:


> I recommended that you buy a MiniDSP 8x12DL before to take the guesswork out of the tuning, you should seriously consider this, some speakers are very unforgiving and will let you know when your **ing up, and some will mask the ** up and make it sound acceptable, focal isn’t one of those, it’ll let you know when the tune isn’t right. Seriously, look into the Mini, it’ll let you reconsider how crisp and detailed all the speakers that you pass of as garbage would’ve been with a real tune. Take the guesswork out of it, you’ve spent a lot of money on equipment, the least you can do is give them a proper tune to see their true potential.


 remember, its the same guy that claimed they were the best thing since sliced bread when they came out. Also the same guy that just recently accepted that cars need to actually be tuned.. good ol' diyma 

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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> remember, its the same guy that claimed they were the best thing since sliced bread when they came out. Also the same guy that just recently accepted that cars need to actually be tuned.. good ol' diyma
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


In all fairness - they where good and when I had the kit 7’s in my golf 4 years ago they were great... 

I’ll add hardly any EQ in that car...

Things have changed in 4-5 years - also my tuning ability as well... 

The Focals were good - probably better than most speakers available today - however I did battle with them ... I am not gonna lie here those speakers when the recording was crap - you turn the system off..

I installed the Brax Matrix 3 ways and I used at least 80 parametric EQ points to sort out the response - the car sounds better than when I had the Focals 

So flaming me for what I believed or did 7 years ago is a little immature... 

Like you have not progressed in that time yourself ...,


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Elektra said:


> In all fairness - they where good and when I had the kit 7’s in my golf 4 years ago they were great...
> 
> I’ll add hardly any EQ in that car...
> 
> ...



Well, to be fair as well, if your system isn't revealing when you're playing a crap recording, then your system is simply _not_ _revealing_.

I understand that there is a decision to be made here based on personal preference. You can go for true accuracy and resolution, as in a studio engineer's monitoring setup that highlights or reveals all of the issues that need to be addressed in a mix, but sounds perfect when everything is balanced and dialed-in.

OR, you can opt for a more "HiFi" type of system that holds some things back and is "smoother" and more forgiving overall, and just sounds really freakin' good and enjoyable.

IMO, there is no right or wrong, it's subjective, and entirely your choice. If it brings a smile to _your_ face, no one can or should tell you that "you shouldn't enjoy your system when it sounds like that".

Having said that, there must be at least some issues with your setup and/or tuning if you couldn't get the new Focal Utopia WM setup dialed-in to your liking.

In my system for example, I just recently discovered that the way I had built my midrange/tweeter pods that house my 3.5WM were creating some "honkiness" and edginess due to internal resonances that are basically impossible to correct for using any amount of DSP.

It was most noticeable on some of Adele's vocals and the _Hollywood Love_ track from the current IASCA competition discs. Once I pinpointed it, I heard it in many other tracks as well.

So what I had thought was simply the speaker's fault, was actually an issue created by _my particular design, enclosure, and placement _for that speaker.

The pods are currently being completely rebuilt and I'm actually going to change their location in the car to somewhere I hadn't previously considered.

Regardless...

I would seriously consider _Mullings_ suggestion to try the MiniDSP 8x12DL.

Unfortunately, I believe that you've already sold your Utopia WM set, but you will nevertheless reap the benefits using the Brax drivers as well, or any others for that matter.

The MiniDSP 8x12DL, and Dirac Live in particular, are _revolutionary_ IMO, and if you go through the setup & tuning process correctly, it will get you MUCH MUCH closer to nirvana with extremely little time and effort, especially as compared to using a somewhat haphazard, manual, trial & error tuning process when/if you might only have intermediate tuning skills.

Even many of the most experienced tuners here will admit that using DL resulted in several significant improvements compared to their "manual" tunes that they've spent many months fine tuning.

Give it a go, mate! There's not much to lose. If you don't like it, I'm probably going to be wanting another MiniDSP 8x12DL in the near future for another project and would take it off your hands.


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

bbfoto said:


> Well, to be fair as well, if your system isn't revealing when you're playing a crap recording, then your system is simply _not_ _revealing_.
> 
> I understand that there is a decision to be made here based on personal preference. You can go for true accuracy and resolution, as in a studio engineer's monitoring setup that highlights or reveals all of the issues that need to be addressed in a mix, but sounds perfect when everything is balanced and dialed-in.
> 
> ...


You couldn’t have said it better, a friend of mine has a MiniDSP 8x12DL with a smiley face curve and while l laughed till I get a headache over his taste of sound, everything is in perfect time and phase, I’m not using one but I’ll always recommend it to anyone that is new and has no interest in learning how to tune, for me tuning is a must and for that reason only, I’ll use something else to keep sharpening my skills till I can be as good as Dirac live.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bbfoto said:


> Well, to be fair as well, if your system isn't revealing when you're playing a crap recording, then your system is simply _not_ _revealing_.
> 
> I understand that there is a decision to be made here based on personal preference. You can go for true accuracy and resolution, as in a studio engineer's monitoring setup that highlights or reveals all of the issues that need to be addressed in a mix, but sounds perfect when everything is balanced and dialed-in.
> 
> ...


Would you use the mini over a Ultra? 

It’s weird as I loved my setup in my Golf it really was good - when I sold it and bought a X3 the same setup didn’t sound as good and I had better equipment as I switched to Brax amps 

The issue I had was that the sound was always edgy - there is a fine line between revealing and just edgy. I would say the Brax is about as revealing as the Focals imho - I can’t say I can’t hear certain things I only heard with the Focals...

I’ll concede that perhaps my install wasn’t correct for the Focals maybe my pods should have been bigger or maybe I should have tried IB... 

Honestly if that guy who bought my stuff didn’t offer me a reasonable amount for my speakers I probably would never have sold them....

I thinking about redoing the pods to see if I can get them better...

Honestly my car just sounds better now with the Brax....


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

ZR SPEAKER LABS ARE NOT BRANDED UNDER GROUND ZERO..... a few years back top of the line GZ systems were designed by ZR Speaker Lab, but they had nothing in common with ORIGINAL ZR SPEAKER LABS drivers that are designed and built on way higher standard.....


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

LBaudio said:


> ZR SPEAKER LABS ARE NOT BRANDED UNDER GROUND ZERO..... a few years back top of the line GZ systems were designed by ZR Speaker Lab, but they had nothing in common with ORIGINAL ZR SPEAKER LABS drivers that are designed and built on way higher standard.....


This is correct. Perhaps I mis-worded my original post. ZR designed the speakers for Ground-Zero's Reference Line.

Not to derail the original intent of this post... but is ZR still in business? His website has been offline for some time.





ZR Speaker Lab - Worldwide Distribution







www.zr-speakerlab.si


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

Elektra said:


> Would you use the mini over a Ultra?
> 
> It’s weird as I loved my setup in my Golf it really was good - when I sold it and bought a X3 the same setup didn’t sound as good and I had better equipment as I switched to Brax amps
> 
> ...


I like you man, you don’t get angry if someone tells you something different from your beliefs, remember when I said that my focals didn’t sound good till I got rid of the brax amps? Who would switch out brax amps? I did, and it was by mistake that I put 2 kenwood xr400.4’s and the edginess was completely gone and I decided at that moment to try Mosconi because I’ve heard all the zapco’s and was curious about the zero4’s. I heads up for anyone making pods for the Tbm’s “ don’t put them in the same enclosure as the mids” I did that and had to remake the pods because I could see the tweeters diaphragm’s move while the mids are playing


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Mullings said:


> I like you man, you don’t get angry if someone tells you something different from your beliefs, remember when I said that my focals didn’t sound good till I got rid of the brax amps? Who would switch out brax amps? I did, and it was by mistake that I put 2 kenwood xr400.4’s and the edginess was completely gone and I decided at that moment to try Mosconi because I’ve heard all the zapco’s and was curious about the zero4’s. I heads up for anyone making pods for the Tbm’s “ don’t put them in the same enclosure as the mids” I did that and had to remake the pods because I could see the tweeters diaphragm’s move while the mids are playing


Lol...

We adults here aren’t we... 

I had issues with ultimate tonality - suspected it was the Brax amps or the speakers...

The Brax amps are neutral - even when I played them off my home system they didn’t add anything to the sound...

Before in my Golf I ran EOS Hybrid Tube amps and those amps where extremely revealing I was worried that with the Focals it would be too much - yet they worked fabulously - only with tubes you have other issues so it was too much PT to have the tube amps as I had order tubes from overseas and because they where soldered onto the board and didn’t have tube holders swapping tubes was a real mission...

So I sold them...

I dunno what it is but the car is more neutral now... easier to listen to... 

For now I am happy - still experimenting as I have the ML3 so I could run the ML3 instead of the Matrix 2.1... so I’ll settle on a setup later 


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Elektra said:


> I dunno what it is but the car is more neutral now... easier to listen to...


This is a key thing here that I also really appreciate in my system and I find I can listen to all sorts of recordings and music without worrying if it is going to sound good or not. The ML(s) communicate the structure and fullness of the musicians and instruments playing music and what seems to be in the recordings including incredible ambient detail retrieval and the full harmonics and decay of notes. This adds up to a palatable reproduction of instruments in space and time. I have the Helix C amps , not the Brax amps, but I suspect they share the same sonic signature , family sound if you will. The other thing is this notion that silk domes lack detail is a false narrative and has not been born out in my years listening to audio gear


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

AudioGal said:


> This is a key thing here that I also really appreciate in my system and I find I can listen to all sorts of recordings and music without worrying if it is going to sound good or not. The ML(s) communicate the structure and fullness of the musicians and instruments playing music and what seems to be in the recordings including incredible ambient detail retrieval and the full harmonics and decay of notes. This adds up to a palatable reproduction of instruments in space and time. I have the Helix C amps , not the Brax amps, but I suspect they share the same sonic signature , family sound if you will. The other thing is this notion that silk domes lack detail is a false narrative and has not been born out in my years listening to audio gear


Look coming from the TBM to the Brax I haven’t noticed a drop in detail - the Brax sounds very holographic like the voices sound almost bigger and not thinner like the TBM sounds... 

Sometimes having a ultra detailed system is detrimental to your listening enjoyment because let’s face it we are at the mercy of the studio mixing the music that gets put out for daily consumption 

Very few recordings are actually suitable to a highly detailed system - the Brax has the detail and the warmth and naturalness the Focal has only 1 out of the 3 which makes it a hard set of speakers to live with as you tend to ignore the not so great recordings when listening to your car....

Even off the Brax a bad recording doesn’t sound great but it’s more livable and you can still enjoy the music...

Audio is about listening experience and most of all enjoyment... having an ultra detailed system doesn’t always translate into a good listening experience and enjoyment... 


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

AudioGal said:


> This is a key thing here that I also really appreciate in my system and I find I can listen to all sorts of recordings and music without worrying if it is going to sound good or not. The ML(s) communicate the structure and fullness of the musicians and instruments playing music and what seems to be in the recordings including incredible ambient detail retrieval and the full harmonics and decay of notes. This adds up to a palatable reproduction of instruments in space and time. I have the Helix C amps , not the Brax amps, but I suspect they share the same sonic signature , family sound if you will. The other thing is this notion that silk domes lack detail is a false narrative and has not been born out in my years listening to audio gear


I love my silk tweeters, never fatiguing and sounds really good for most brands, I have morel mt350, ss 3004/602000,grandioso and a ton more, had esotar110 tweeters and love them, also the brax and helix amps sounds completely different, we did a blind test between them, a P6 and a sinfoni ingot and even a customer that was here during the test could tell the differences once the P6 and C4 was on but was harder to pick the sinfoni different from the brax so totally different signature for those who thinks that all amps sounds the same.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Mullings said:


> I love my silk tweeters, never fatiguing and sounds really good for most brands, I have morel mt350, ss 3004/602000,grandioso and a ton more, had esotar110 tweeters and love them, also the brax and helix amps sounds completely different, we did a blind test between them, a P6 and a sinfoni ingot and even a customer that was here during the test could tell the differences once the P6 and C4 was on but was harder to pick the sinfoni different from the brax so totally different signature for those who thinks that all amps sounds the same.


How do you like the Helix C amps vs the Brax amps? Since it was picked in the listening test...


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Elektra said:


> How do you like the Helix C amps vs the Brax amps? Since it was picked in the listening test...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I to am curious about this as I have been told that the C-4 is supposed to sound very much like the Brax amps by AF folks. Please elaborate with specific details if you will, thank you 🤓


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

AudioGal said:


> I to am curious about this as I have been told that the C-4 is supposed to sound very much like the Brax amps by AF folks. Please elaborate with specific details if you will, thank you


What DSP are you using btw?


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

I am using the Ultra. It is all documented in my Midbass thread 😎


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

AudioGal said:


> I am using the Ultra. It is all documented in my Midbass thread


Do you have a link? I think I missed that post...


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Elektra said:


> Do you have a link? I think I missed that post...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yup 









Let the Audiogal Mid-bass experimental journey begin


All, I thought I would share my journey on replacing my current 6.5" MB door drivers with something totally different and off the wall. and since @jimmydee ( a newly minted moderator) is from my local car audio community I thought I was share out my effort to support some content from the Canuk...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

AudioGal said:


> Yup
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice ... what did you have before the Ultra? 


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Thanks, I had a Hertz H8, with various amps, Steped into as Helix V8 and A Helix P2, and then made the big jump once I figured some stuff out 😂


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

AudioGal said:


> Yup
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I looked at the ML8’s... problem is you need an enclosure - finding 15lts... in a modern door these days with all the stuff behind the panel is pretty hard...

I wonder if these would work in a AP install....


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

The brax and sinfoni was a lot more revealing, it was setup so that you tap the chair’s arm to switch between amps and whenever the brax is selected it sounds like a veil is taken off of the sound, same with the brax processor vs the ultra, you wouldn’t believe how much better the brax is, Nick was able to tell the difference between those from in his office while me a captain obvious were conducting the test.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Elektra said:


> I looked at the ML8’s... problem is you need an enclosure - finding 15lts... in a modern door these days with all the stuff behind the panel is pretty hard...
> 
> I wonder if these would work in a AP install....
> 
> ...


Hmmmm .......I do not know if they will or will not.... work in that application. I did it by the book!!!

Ya it is a tough thing unless the car is built for an 8" or your can attach an enclosure to he door like I did. I am running about 14L and it is very happy with that. A great response all the way down to 40Hz. By building a separate enclosure, all the resonances in the door are gone and are no longer an issue what so ever. The lack of door coloration (distortions) was noticed immediately


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Some people do kicks and that angle but it is not an option in my car.


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

Mullings said:


> The brax and sinfoni was a lot more revealing, it was setup so that you tap the chair’s arm to switch between amps and whenever the brax is selected it sounds like a veil is taken off of the sound, same with the brax processor vs the ultra, you wouldn’t believe how much better the brax is, Nick was able to tell the difference between those from in his office while me a captain obvious were conducting the test.


Very interesting what Brax amps specifically? Have you heard the GX2400 vs the MX4 and MX4Pro?

You pays your money and hope that is the case!! It is nice to hear some other people's opinion on the product.


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## Mullings (Jan 31, 2016)

AudioGal said:


> Very interesting what Brax amps specifically? Have you heard the GX2400 vs the MX4 and MX4Pro?
> 
> You pays your money and hope that is the case!! It is nice to hear some other people's opinion on the product.


mx4, not the pro and no I’ve never heard the gx2400


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

ZR Speaker Lab is still in the business and running strong. He sells majority of his product lines to far East.


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

AudioGal said:


> Very interesting what Brax amps specifically? Have you heard the GX2400 vs the MX4 and MX4Pro?
> 
> You pays your money and hope that is the case!! It is nice to hear some other people's opinion on the product.


Brax amps are on top of Audiotec Fischer production line. MX vs GX - they share very similar sound character but GX is somehow a bit smother sounding compared to MX...maybe a better pick for some brighter speakers.
Helix is still very nice sounding amp, smoother sounding than BRAX line with lower damping factor and less control over the cone movement, but still very very good. I used A4 briefly on my midbass at2 ohms,...bass/midbass was somehow fuller with HELIX compared to BRAX which was a little more on dry side. Helix amps are also less powerfull than BRAX.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

LBaudio said:


> Brax amps are on top of Audiotec Fischer production line. MX vs GX - they share very similar sound character but GX is somehow a bit smother sounding compared to MX...maybe a better pick for some brighter speakers.
> Helix is still very nice sounding amp, smoother sounding than BRAX line with lower damping factor and less control over the cone movement, but still very very good. I used A4 briefly on my midbass at2 ohms,...bass/midbass was somehow fuller with HELIX compared to BRAX which was a little more on dry side. Helix amps are also less powerfull than BRAX.


The MX amps are more accurate which may sound a little more thinner... the GX amps are a little less accurate and sound a bit more warmer - probably due to the fact that the MX amps are more Class A biased compared to the GX amps... 

The Helix amps which are less biased compared to the Brax has a fuller sound but it does depend on what you like and your objectives in audio...

If absolute accuracy and control is required then the MX amps are the ones to get along with the Brax DSP 


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## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

LBaudio said:


> ZR Speaker Lab is still in the business and running strong. He sells majority of his product lines to far East.


any experience with ZR


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## jtrosky (Jul 19, 2019)

Sometimes I wonder if some of these "super high end" amps are actually applying some sort of minor EQ in the amp to make it sound "better". I mean, technically, all amps should sound they same if they are doing their job correctly. Their only job in life is to amplify the source signal without modifying it. 

I sure _hope_ they aren't applying some sort of EQ in the amps, but sometimes I wonder if they sound so obviously different than other amps. I "get" that they use higher-end components, will have lower distortion, better SNR, etc - but the overall "tonality" of the amp shouldn't be significantly different than any other amp - regardless of how "high quality" the components are. 

Call me skeptical.


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

.... for my taste in reproduction, ZR SpeakerLab speakers beat almost all of the top tier drivers including Dynaudio Esotars. when installed correctly they are capable of holographic imaging. A comment from a friend that swapped Dyns for ZR Speaker Labs - ZRs are all that dynaudios arent..... Very lifelike sound....price is not so lifelike, lol


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

jtrosky said:


> Sometimes I wonder if some of these "super high end" amps are actually applying some sort of minor EQ in the amp to make it sound "better". I mean, technically, all amps should sound they same if they are doing their job correctly. Their only job in life is to amplify the source signal without modifying it.
> 
> I sure _hope_ they aren't applying some sort of EQ in the amps, but sometimes I wonder if they sound so obviously different than other amps. I "get" that they use higher-end components, will have lower distortion, better SNR, etc - but the overall "tonality" of the amp shouldn't be significantly different than any other amp - regardless of how "high quality" the components are.
> 
> Call me skeptical.


on the Brax NOX 4DSP I tested against the Audison HV Venti and I payed both on my midrange drivers - there was a clear audible difference the Brax sounded more sharper or clearer - when I measured both amps you could see why the Brax had a bump from say 1.5khz to 4khz which the HV didn’t have also the 400hz region was more prominent in the HV 

I dunno if that is due to some EQ built in the amp - but it def showed up on the RTA... I didn’t measure the MX4 - but I can’t hear the brightness in the MX4 as I did in the Nox so I presume the response is flat... 


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

LBaudio said:


> .... for my taste in reproduction, ZR SpeakerLab speakers beat almost all of the top tier drivers including Dynaudio Esotars. when installed correctly they are capable of holographic imaging. A comment from a friend that swapped Dyns for ZR Speaker Labs - ZRs are all that dynaudios arent..... Very lifelike sound....price is not so lifelike, lol




In an effort to not derail the OP's thread... I have created a separate ZR Lab post. Let's chat about it there:









ZR Speaker Lab


I kinda hijacked another thread by commenting on ZR Speaker Lab components... figured I'd create a separate thread for discussion on this product line. https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threads/brax-speakers.431295/#post-5856303 ZR Speaker Lab is an ultra high-end designer / manufacturer, based in...




www.diymobileaudio.com


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## bbfoto (Aug 28, 2005)

Mullings said:


> Dynaudio fanboy here too, e110 is also my all time favorite tweeter, I also own grandioso mids and tweeters and is making a second set of pods to house e110’s and 12mu’s/grandioso mids because they’re the same size And these are Some of the most natural sounding Speakers to me, I’m gonna machine down the tweeter as small as I can go though, *I also have a pair of Xcelsus xxm 325’s that I’m currently testing* but the Utopia’s are the most revealing speaker set I’ve ever owned, these speakers misses nothing, coupled with the mosconi zero’s that has that Smooth laidback sound, every time I listen to another car and go back to mine it reminds me how detailed these things are. I’m gonna see if I can find someone with those brax speaker so I can a/b them with my collection even though I remember we swapped some in a Infiniti for some gb40’s and the gb’s bested them, not sure what model brax they were but I’m almost certain they were ML3’s that were played by a brax mx4, hopefully Skizr will chime with the speaker model.


I'm curious to know your impressions on the Xcelsus XXM325, especially in comparison to the 12MU and Utopia 3.5WM??? Also what passband you end up settling on with the XXM325?

I've got a pair on order, but will not be receiving them for at least 3 weeks.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

bbfoto said:


> I'm curious to know your impressions on the Xcelsus XXM325, especially in comparison to the 12MU and Utopia 3.5WM??? Also what passband you end up settling on with the XXM325?
> 
> I've got a pair on order, but will not be receiving them for at least 3 weeks.


I heard they sound like DLS... considering the lineage of the brand - I would like someone else to give a view as the view I got I have no faith in... 

People are too brand conscious and sometimes label a brand before listening to it...


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Mullings said:


> Dynaudio fanboy here too, e110 is also my all time favorite tweeter, I also own grandioso mids and tweeters and is making a second set of pods to house e110’s and 12mu’s/grandioso mids because they’re the same size And these are Some of the most natural sounding Speakers to me, I’m gonna machine down the tweeter as small as I can go though, I also have a pair of Xcelsus xxm 325’s that I’m currently testing but the Utopia’s are the most revealing speaker set I’ve ever owned, these speakers misses nothing, coupled with the mosconi zero’s that has that Smooth laidback sound, every time I listen to another car and go back to mine it reminds me how detailed these things are. I’m gonna see if I can find someone with those brax speaker so I can a/b them with my collection even though I remember we swapped some in a Infiniti for some gb40’s and the gb’s bested them, not sure what model brax they were but I’m almost certain they were ML3’s that were played by a brax mx4, hopefully Skizr will chime with the speaker model.


yup, mark had the ML3 in the doors of his Infiniti and swapped them for the GB25. Reason why we swapped them.. the shop that installed them just sold them in the job without realizing that they wont properly fit, and did a hackjob install to get them to sit there and play. GB25's fit much easier and better/properly


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## ebrahim (Sep 21, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> yup, mark had the ML3 in the doors of his Infiniti and swapped them for the GB25. Reason why we swapped them.. the shop that installed them just sold them in the job without realizing that they wont properly fit, and did a hackjob install to get them to sit there and play. GB25's fit much easier and better/properly


So would you prefer Audiofrog over Brax?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

ebrahim said:


> So would you prefer Audiofrog over Brax?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I didn't say that. What I hinted at was picking the right tool for the job is a better idea than obsessing over expensive and fancy gear. 

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## ebrahim (Sep 21, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> I didn't say that. What I hinted at was picking the right tool for the job is a better idea than obsessing over expensive and fancy gear.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Thank you for the lesson. I always obsess with over brands and realized from past experiences that if not installed properly they sound like crap. 


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## 01LSi (Jul 27, 2012)

Bumping as it's been a while so there may be new insights / opinions - specifically, I'm thinking about swapping out my Focal 6WM for the ML6D.

Part of the reason I'm considering switching is because I want the door speakers to dig a little deeper - which on paper the ML6 does - but idk in real life because I can't demo anywhere.
I have the ML1 (which i'm definitely going to keep / install)
I have the Focal 3WM (which I'm considering the ML3, but I've heard neither 3WM or ML3)


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## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

01LSi said:


> Bumping as it's been a while so there may be new insights / opinions - specifically, I'm thinking about swapping out my Focal 6WM for the ML6D.
> 
> Part of the reason I'm considering switching is because I want the door speakers to dig a little deeper - which on paper the ML6 does - but idk in real life because I can't demo anywhere.
> I have the ML1 (which i'm definitely going to keep / install)
> I have the Focal 3WM (which I'm considering the ML3, but I've heard neither 3WM or ML3)


With a 3 way setup I have a heard time justifying high dollar midbass. In a 2 way I do feel it can make a difference. Personally for a 6.5” in a 3 way the frogs are tough to beat. I haven’t heard them but from what others have said the new stereo integrity 6.5’s are nice also and only about $400.


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## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

As far as Brax midbass drivers go - 8 and 6,5 - they are top notch performers I would put them against almost any other hi quality midbass there is out there and they would not dissapoint. I prefer them over any Morel or Dynaudio Esotar driver... speaking of 3-way, IMHO ML3 is the weakest link in a chain, but far far from being a bad sounding speaker


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