# Is anyone running horns without an EQ?



## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

Just curious if anyone is running horns without an EQ. I am thinking about trying this while I save up for a bit one.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

I could be wrong, but I doubt it. FGor the simple fact their ultra high efficiency compared to the other drivers (even pro audio) used in a car setup.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

It's not a necessity to use a separate L/R EQ however I believe that you at least need some form of EQ from a HU. 

Kelvin


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## monkeyboy (Jun 12, 2007)

I did for a while, just as a test. I ran my original set of ID CD1E's with the passive crossover they came with. I wanted to do a quick test and make sure I liked them before diving all the way in.


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## Audio Options (Aug 28, 2008)

atleast have some sort of preamp and you will be fine


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## DanMan (Jul 18, 2008)

monkeyboy said:


> I did for a while, just as a test. I ran my original set of ID CD1E's with the passive crossover they came with. I wanted to do a quick test and make sure I liked them before diving all the way in.



And? Did we dive?


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

I competed at Spring Break Nationals in 2001 With No EQ b/c of a short in my processor, caused an Opamp to fry.

With alot of careful level settings, and Xo adjustments.

It was good enough for 5th in IASCA and 2nd in USACi Pro class


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## nubz69 (Aug 27, 2005)

Mic10is said:


> I competed at Spring Break Nationals in 2001 With No EQ b/c of a short in my processor, caused an Opamp to fry.
> 
> With alot of careful level settings, and Xo adjustments.
> 
> It was good enough for 5th in IASCA and 2nd in USACi Pro class


That is impressive, could you tell us about your install? What drivers were you running


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## Mic10is (Aug 20, 2007)

nubz69 said:


> That is impressive, could you tell us about your install? What drivers were you running


I was using original CD2 drivers on mini bodies, CX52 and IDQ8s. and I think a beta pair of IDmax 12s...
all original Arc Audio amps.

crossover was analog custom 4way IDX model. EQ was suppose to be an ID2040 but there was a short when connecting it due to massive sleep deprivation and a rush to get it finished that it fried an opamp and I couldnt pass signal through it


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## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

Matt and I with Rob Hefner did a demo system in a Ford Focus Wagon back in 2001/2002 time frame. We used it as a demo system at CES and many other shows. It sounded excellent, imaged from both seats, had a high sound stage etc etc. 

Everyone thought it had the ID One processor, but it was just an empty case.

System was a pair of MH CD2, 6.5" chameleon midbass in stock door location (modified and improved mounting), 2 Max 12" subs in rear. Xtant amps and Kenwood HU which had no EQ, only tone controls.

A high end dealer Kustom Kar in Northern CA bought the car and continued to use it as a demo system to sell customer with for many years.

Eric Stevens


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## Arclight (Apr 29, 2011)

I ran my CD1 Pros w/ CX62 mids w/o an EQ for at least 6 months...actually competed with it in IASCA as a newbie and won my class (judges thought it sounded almost perfect un-eq'd). They sounded very natural and really only required a slight bit of tweaking when I finally did get an Eclipse 5402 H/U w/ internal EQ and crossovers.

Prior to the Eclipse, I ran a PPI/ADS DEQ 30 for about 1 hour...it made the soundstage hollow and thin so I immediately sold it.

Horns are awesome, they just require a bit more installation creativity IMHO.


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## monkeyboy (Jun 12, 2007)

DanMan said:


> And? Did we dive?


CD1 pros running in my truck now, but it does have an EQ now.

We dove


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## Tacoo (Apr 16, 2011)

Arclight said:


> I ran my CD1 Pros w/ CX62 mids w/o an EQ for at least 6 months...actually competed with it in IASCA as a newbie and won my class (judges thought it sounded almost perfect un-eq'd). They sounded very natural and really only required a slight bit of tweaking when I finally did get an Eclipse 5402 H/U w/ internal EQ and crossovers.
> 
> Prior to the Eclipse, I ran a PPI/ADS DEQ 30 for about 1 hour...it made the soundstage hollow and thin so I immediately sold it.
> 
> Horns are awesome, they just require a bit more installation creativity IMHO.




Hmmm very interested in the comment about the ADS/PPI Deq 30 sounding hollow. I will be taking my first attempt with horns in the next few months and will be running CD2Pro mini and CX62 mids and have an Orion Concept 97.2 (basically the ADS). 

When you used the Eclipse the sound was instantly changed? The Eclipse is the H/U and EQ correct? what was the headunit that was feeding the ADS piece?


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## Arclight (Apr 29, 2011)

> Hmmm very interested in the comment about the ADS/PPI Deq 30 sounding hollow. I will be taking my first attempt with horns in the next few months and will be running CD2Pro mini and CX62 mids and have an Orion Concept 97.2 (basically the ADS).
> 
> When you used the Eclipse the sound was instantly changed? The Eclipse is the H/U and EQ correct? what was the headunit that was feeding the ADS piece?


It's funny, I thought the EQ (it was the Orion Concept 98 IIRC, the ADS clone) was going to improve my system, however, it had the opposite effect. 

Here's the setup I was running at the time: Eclipse 5442 (I think...it was a loaner until the 8053 arrived), Audiocontrol DXS, and 3 PG TI amps (CD1 Pro horns, CX 62 mids, and JL 12W3v2 subs each had their own amp). 

I tuned the above setup w/ the help of a local IASCA judge. I installed the Orion EQ and the natural, full sound just disappeared...kinda like the music was just overprocessed. I think the DA-AD converters in the EQ were just not great quality and did a poor job of tweaking the sound. There was just too many DA conversions (head unit, DXS, & EQ) taking place in my system and it caused the music to just go flat... I quickly figured out why ID used analog EQs in their systems!

Once I installed the Eclipse 8053, things improved dramatically. All the adjustments (EQ, Crossover, time alignment) all took place in the digital realm and only made 1 conversion to analog (in the head unit) and then were shipped directly to the 3 amps and out the speakers. IMHO, this is where some newer electronics are superior to older electronics...the DA converters are just better quality. 

The only piece I have left from that system is the head unit... not sure if I will ever use it again, however, I have no doubt it would still be awesome (it was similar quality to the Alpine F#1 Status HU at about 1/3 the price).

LMK if you have other questions about my setup.


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## Tacoo (Apr 16, 2011)

My setup will be very similar to yours. I have the CD2Pro horns and an Orion HCCA225 for them, CX62's with an Orion HCCA 250 for them, and 2 IDMax 12's with an HCCA 275 on them. The H/U i was planning on using is my Alpine CDA 7998 but didn't think it had enough of an EQ to work with the horns(5 band I think, been a while since I powered it up) hence the EQ, and I am an old school Orion guy. 


I will be hopefully having the EQ in the console of my install so don't really want to build it for something that isn't gonna work. This will be a personal set-up truck will never be shown for competition just for my enjoyment in a long term project I have been working on.

What could you advise to take a look at as far as EQ's go? I have been an installer/shop owner for 10 years so i am pretty up on things but just haven't dealt with horns before.


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## Arclight (Apr 29, 2011)

> My setup will be very similar to yours. I have the CD2Pro horns and an Orion HCCA225 for them, CX62's with an Orion HCCA 250 for them, and 2 IDMax 12's with an HCCA 275 on them. The H/U i was planning on using is my Alpine CDA 7998 but didn't think it had enough of an EQ to work with the horns(5 band I think, been a while since I powered it up) hence the EQ, and I am an old school Orion guy.
> 
> 
> I will be hopefully having the EQ in the console of my install so don't really want to build it for something that isn't gonna work. This will be a personal set-up truck will never be shown for competition just for my enjoyment in a long term project I have been working on.
> ...


Tacoo, I think your Alpine HU w/ a 5 band parametric EQ would be more than sufficient, especially since you are not planning on competing with it. Does this HU have internal crossovers? If so, then I say go for it as it will keep your install simple and not "overprocessed". If no internal crossovers, I would go with the Audio Control DQX or DQXS which have both EQs and crossovers built in (thus keeping the AD/DA conversions to a minimum).

If I were going w/ horns again, I would start with the Eclipse 8053 or maybe step up to a Pioneer P99 and keep all the processing in the HU. If keeping the factory HU, I would go with the Audio Control DQL8 (which I will probably end up doing for my upcoming build).

Overall, horns are pretty cool and negate the need for kick panels... I'm just going with a stealth build in my current car (an Audi A4) so horns are not an option. 

GL with your build and LMK if there is anything I can help with advice wise!


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## Tacoo (Apr 16, 2011)

Arclight said:


> Tacoo, I think your Alpine HU w/ a 5 band parametric EQ would be more than sufficient, especially since you are not planning on competing with it. Does this HU have internal crossovers? If so, then I say go for it as it will keep your install simple and not "overprocessed". If no internal crossovers, I would go with the Audio Control DQX or DQXS which have both EQs and crossovers built in (thus keeping the AD/DA conversions to a minimum).
> 
> If I were going w/ horns again, I would start with the Eclipse 8053 or maybe step up to a Pioneer P99 and keep all the processing in the HU. If keeping the factory HU, I would go with the Audio Control DQL8 (which I will probably end up doing for my upcoming build).
> 
> ...



My deck has the ability to go 3 way pre-outs (High, Mid High, Mid low, and Low at 6,12,18,24/octave) so I can bandpass right at the deck for the mids and it has 6 channel time correction.

The other option maybe to hunt an Alpine changer that has the optical out and run optical into the EQ and drop one of the DA conversions? Keep it all in the digital realm until it leaves the EQ? Good idea? bad idea?

Thoughts?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Make sure you look for Xover settings when purchasing a HU. 
The CD7xxx from Eclipse can use a Xover point as low as 200Hz on the horns while HU like Pioneer P8xx doesn't have Xover point low enough for horns... 

Kelvin


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## Tacoo (Apr 16, 2011)

The mid low can go down as low as 20-200hz and the high as low as 200-20k and the high as low as 1000hz. So I think that is covered alright. as long as I am not try to cross the horns over under 1000.


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## Arclight (Apr 29, 2011)

> The mid low can go down as low as 20-200hz and the high as low as 200-20k and the high as low as 1000hz. So I think that is covered alright. as long as I am not try to cross the horns over under 1000.


Sounds like you are good to go there. IIRC, I had mine crossed at 1000 hz (or 1200hz...cant remember) from the mids to the horns and 60K from the mids to the subs, all at 24db. I had a local ID team member help me with the fine tuning with the Eclipse HU - He only tweaked 5 or 6 frequencies as the horns were pretty good in their untweaked state. 

I would definitely use the optical out to keep all the AD/DA processing to a minumum.

Your system is going to sound awesome...


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## veritasz34 (Jul 25, 2011)

I can't imagine not using some form of EQ with horns but that is just me. I have also used teh a/d/s eq 3000 (Orion piece) and loved it. BUT I didn't use it with horns. Maybe the issue was too much of a increase in dB per boost/cut. I can't remember the exact ratio but I think it's either 1/2 or 1 dB..Also they had alot of problems with those units boards. I had to have one complete;ly replaced by a/d/s so maybe you got ahold of a bad one..


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## Arclight (Apr 29, 2011)

veritasz34 said:


> I can't imagine not using some form of EQ with horns but that is just me. I have also used teh a/d/s eq 3000 (Orion piece) and loved it. BUT I didn't use it with horns. Maybe the issue was too much of a increase in dB per boost/cut. I can't remember the exact ratio but I think it's either 1/2 or 1 dB..Also they had alot of problems with those units boards. I had to have one complete;ly replaced by a/d/s so maybe you got ahold of a bad one..


I thought the same thing, however, they sounded pretty great w/o an EQ. I actually competed at an IASCA event in West Palm Beach, FL, w/ the the un-EQ'd setup and IIRC, took first place in my rookie class. The judge was impressed w/ the natural, unprocessed sound and felt only minor tweaks were needed - this turned out to be true as only 3 or 4 bands needed tweeking when I installed the Eclipse 8053. 

You are probably correct about the EQ...maybe it just wasn't the correct one to use w/ horns. The guy I sold it to in TX competed w/ it in his system and did really well.

I sure miss that setup...


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## veritasz34 (Jul 25, 2011)

I had the best luck using analog equalizers with my horns. MOST people do over use equalization with horns. I personally think it is due to the fact that they are so different from conventional drivers. I also blame alot of it because they don't actually look at the response curve for the driver they use. This will give you a insight of where you may have problems in your response before you ever hook them up..


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