# Review, ScanSpeak Discovery 30W/4558T 12" Subwoofer



## avanti1960

So I'm listening to my stereo and I play my favorite old school progressive rock track, you know, Genesis? So it comes to the part where the bass organ gets really low and deep so I crank it up a little and eh? Whats up with this, ahh? Where's the bass?! Ok so I'm not going to give my sub a "bad rap?" because it does smack pretty hard when the music calls for it, it just doesn't play low or so deep. Maybe it needs more than 500 watts, I don't know but all I know is my RTA plot shows I ain't got nuthin below 60 hz or thereabouts- I ain't even got any cabin gains. So I do all this research and read all these threads about the best "SQ" 12 inch subs and all, and you people really know what's doing I can say that much. Basically I built my "box" a little larger than JL specs for a sealed enclosure but the sub models with a rather high F3 (the frequency where the output is -3db and output begins to decline by 12db every octave below that frequency). So my current sub has an F3 of 47 Hz, which seems quite high for a sub roll-off frequency- if you want deep low end bass and your vehicle exhibits minimal measured cabin gain. 
So I hit the online catalogs and spec sheets looking for a 12" sub that can model with as low of an F3 as reasonably possible for the enclosure size I have and with a "Qtc" of .707 or as close as possible. 
So playing lower frequencies is definitely on the priority list. 
Then I starts readin about these subs that seem to "blend" and that you can't tell if its really playin, you know like transparent? Hmm, sounds a little strange but I read on... after all, my sub seems to be a bi-personality- it's either disappeared all the way or it's really there, too much "there". I would have to say this ain't your typical HQ SQ. Sos I add "blending in" and "SQ" to my list of upgrade priorities. 
I starts readin about these subs that are "musical" too. Most of them are from over by europe or so it seems. Not bad. I read about this Morel Ultimo. Minga thats an expensive sub. I aint payin that much even if it is made in Italy. Then I stumble on Peerless and Scanspeak subs. Hey, I had a scanspeak tweeter and they was high line. So I plug the thiele small parameters into the spreadsheet and voila, the ScanSpeak Discovery 12" subwoofer would give me an F3 of around 37 Hz with a Qtc of .72. Ayy, I been doin lots of looking and this aint too bad. So I go with it and see what happens.

As yous can see by the attached pics this new ScanSpeak sub seems smaller than my original JL. Marone, the surround is nearly twice as big! The magnet seems a little smaller as does the install height. The frame on the Scan is nice and sturdy being a casting vs. the JL stamped sheet-metal design. Missing from the Scan subwoofer flange is any sort of sealing material (The JL sub has a nice rubberized sealing surface on the flange). I'll have to make a foam sealing gasket. The terminals on the Scan are standard variety 1/4" male connecting terminal vs. the JL spring locked terminal so I'll have to crimp some female connectors to the sub box wiring. As I'm ready to button it all up I notice the mounting holes on the new sub line up exactly with the old ones, so I am thankful for that. 

So there's the pic of the sub "in-situ" if you knows what I'm sayin which means I am ready to actually hear how it sounds. 
After a few errands drivin around and tuning it in it seemed very weak. Must be breakin in or something. Then I put on my old Genesis CD. Fast forward to the bass organ at the 7:00 mark of "Firth of Fifth" off the Selling England by the Pound CD (at this point you gen X, Y and Z'ers are going like WTF? right?) so ayyy, learn something ahhh? Anyway the bass organ came back to life! Not overpowering but deep and low nones the less. Then I put in a few other CDs with deep low bass and a sumthin a little familiar is goin on- oh yeah, it sounds a little like the JL sub when i had it in this big ported box the size of a small refrigerator. It was tuned to 30Hz. So the low notes are back! But the SQ so far ain't muddy or loose like the ported box sometimes sounded. 

Goals of the Sub Upgrade-
1) Lower frequency output. 
2) Better overall SQ.
3) More musical, less over the top. 

So I'm gonna let this thing play for a few weeks and let the sub break in, tune it a little more, get some experiences with it. Then I'll do some RTA measurements and report back with some updated info and see if the upgrade goals were achieved. Off to a good start though, I can say that much.


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## t3sn4f2

What I really like about these and the Peerless XXLS line is that the pole vents out the front on the voice coil. That mean you don't need to leave any room behind the sub so it can breath. You don't even need to have the magnet in the box for that matter. Just cut away a precise hole the diameter of the magnet, press fit the sub in a perimeter of CCF and you are looking at a functional mounting depth reduction of more than *1"*! Or even more if the floor your sub box will go on has a indentation large enough for the magnet to fall in.


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## james2266

I look forward to the review in time. I'm glad it appears to be working out for you so far however. I do have a couple questions and a comment about your box tho. First, nice touch putting the terminal block on the top of the box. I wish I had thought of that as mine is on the side and a royal PITA to get at. Your box looks almost identical to the one I built but I never gave it any appearance other than unfinished mdf. Did you just paint yours or is that some other kind of finishing? What is with all of the screws in the box top too? A number of them look to be far away from the edges - just curious. 

When I was looking around for a sub I had few choices as I had only about 6 inches of sub depth available. The Ultimo (while pricey but got good deal thanks to this site) was perfect it seemed. It was not my number one choice but it was probably number 2. The sub I wanted to try out the most mainly due to reviews I had read from people with experience was the ID Max 12. It was almost 3 inches too deep tho.


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## Derekj

avanti1960 said:


> So I'm listening to my stereo and I play my favorite old school progressive rock track, you know, Genesis? So it comes to the part where the bass organ gets really low and deep so I crank it up a little and eh?


The minute I read this I knew exactly which track you were talking about!

Thanks for the review.


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## avanti1960

james2266 said:


> I look forward to the review in time. I'm glad it appears to be working out for you so far however. I do have a couple questions and a comment about your box tho. First, nice touch putting the terminal block on the top of the box. I wish I had thought of that as mine is on the side and a royal PITA to get at. Your box looks almost identical to the one I built but I never gave it any appearance other than unfinished mdf. Did you just paint yours or is that some other kind of finishing? What is with all of the screws in the box top too? A number of them look to be far away from the edges - just curious.
> 
> When I was looking around for a sub I had few choices as I had only about 6 inches of sub depth available. The Ultimo (while pricey but got good deal thanks to this site) was perfect it seemed. It was not my number one choice but it was probably number 2. The sub I wanted to try out the most mainly due to reviews I had read from people with experience was the ID Max 12. It was almost 3 inches too deep tho.


i basically sprayed the box with that rustoleum texture paint- one coat and not very carefully done just to get some paint on it. the sides are very uneven because off all the glue on the surface before I painted- i used a putty knife to spread out the glue once the edges were clamped together. 
the interior screws are securing the bracing structure- there is a 3/4 x 1-1/2 inch oak rail that runs along all interior corner edges as well as a beam in the center with (2) column braces to support the long surface of the top and bottom pieces. i did not want this box to deflect, flex or resonate. 

and i feel your pain about woofer depth limitations- putting the box in the rav trunk area doesn't leave much room for height if you want to use the cover to keep the stock stealth look. the trunk floor actually slopes as well, deeper near the interior and shallow near the rear door. plus you had to account for the woofer surround and leave a gap between the trunk floor! 
What that means is that you can't run with those honkin subs that look like rocket launchers and seem deeper than the woofer diameter. 
for reference my box overall dimensions are 8.375 H X 14.125 D X 29 L.


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## Sound Suggestions

I've most recently went from a JL 10W6v2 to a 10w7 to 12w7 and now the ID Max 12" (all sealed enclosures) a step pretty much in the right direction every time...since the ID Max I've been stung again to try something maybe even better "the" Morel Ultimo 12" From what I've read that seems to be exactly what I'm looking for; I'm growing tired of aggressive subwoofer that play loud but have no finesse in doing so, I'm not saying the above don't have finesse, they just seem to add something to the music that doesn't belong, they either play too loud or not loud enough, some music sounds good other doesn't!? The ID Max is the best subwoofer that I have owned, but after reading reviews here and there the morel seem to be where it's at!

I've spent ssssoooo much money on car audio that if it only takes $700 to finally find true sub happiness (hopefully) I'd be willing to spend it.


Sent from my iPhone using DIYMA


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## james2266

Sound Suggestions said:


> I've most recently went from a JL 10W6v2 to a 10w7 to 12w7 and now the ID Max 12" (all sealed enclosures) a step pretty much in the right direction every time...since the ID Max I've been stung again to try something maybe even better "the" Morel Ultimo 12" From what I've read that seems to be exactly what I'm looking for; I'm growing tired of aggressive subwoofer that play loud but have no finesse in doing so, I'm not saying the above don't have finesse, they just seem to add something to the music that doesn't belong, they either play too loud or not loud enough, some music sounds good other doesn't!? The ID Max is the best subwoofer that I have owned, but after reading reviews here and there the morel seem to be where it's at!
> 
> I've spent ssssoooo much money on car audio that if it only takes $700 to finally find true sub happiness (hopefully) I'd be willing to spend it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using DIYMA


I run the Ultimo and it is definitely an acquired taste. I was told once, when I was looking around, the difference between the Ultimo and the IDMax is the IDMax is more likely to fill your vehicle with powerful bass and be more of an spl sub than the Ultimo ever would be. The Ultimo is pure sq. It does everything it should and nothing more. It digs deep and it blends effortlessly. It will never wake the neighbors however. Oh, and the Ultimo requires a **** tonne of power and that is no joke. If you don't have 1000 watts rms for it, don't even bother. I was told more like 1200 watts rms actually. I am running 1150 rms and I actually think at times it could use more.


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## Sound Suggestions

james2266 said:


> I run the Ultimo and it is definitely an acquired taste. I was told once, when I was looking around, the difference between the Ultimo and the IDMax is the IDMax is more likely to fill your vehicle with powerful bass and be more of an spl sub than the Ultimo ever would be. The Ultimo is pure sq. It does everything it should and nothing more. It digs deep and it blends effortlessly. It will never wake the neighbors however. Oh, and the Ultimo requires a **** tonne of power and that is no joke. If you don't have 1000 watts rms for it, don't even bother. I was told more like 1200 watts rms actually. I am running 1150 rms and I actually think at times it could use more.



All that you describe is what I am looking for  I have 2 amps to pick from (which I own, the arc se2300 or Zapco reference 1100.1) I think (hope) that I'm covered when it comes to power 

To the OP, keep us updated on your findings


Sent from my iPhone using DIYMA


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## james2266

avanti1960 said:


> i basically sprayed the box with that rustoleum texture paint- one coat and not very carefully done just to get some paint on it. the sides are very uneven because off all the glue on the surface before I painted- i used a putty knife to spread out the glue once the edges were clamped together.
> the interior screws are securing the bracing structure- there is a 3/4 x 1-1/2 inch oak rail that runs along all interior corner edges as well as a beam in the center with (2) column braces to support the long surface of the top and bottom pieces. i did not want this box to deflect, flex or resonate.
> 
> and i feel your pain about woofer depth limitations- putting the box in the rav trunk area doesn't leave much room for height if you want to use the cover to keep the stock stealth look. the trunk floor actually slopes as well, deeper near the interior and shallow near the rear door. plus you had to account for the woofer surround and leave a gap between the trunk floor!
> What that means is that you can't run with those honkin subs that look like rocket launchers and seem deeper than the woofer diameter.
> for reference my box overall dimensions are 8.375 H X 14.125 D X 29 L.


Rustoleum texture paint. Hmm, that's what I used on my speaker pods. I think I have some left actually. Probably not enough to do the entire box but it might be close. I am in waiting status on a new midbass amp now. Once it comes in I will have to rip everything apart again and reset all of my channels to their proper assigned duties.

You see, I am down 2 channels now which were my midbasses. One week of no midbass drove me over the edge so today I did something about it. I had two options. 1. Go back to a conventional 2 way setup and leave my midranges out of it OR 2. Kill off my tweeters and run an unconventional 2 way setup with my midranges being used as widebanders. Well, I have never been one to go the conventional way. I went with #2 option. I just love these little Scans. I haven't really tuned yet but I was shocked that I was getting details I wasn't before with the Morel tweeters in the game. If nothing else comes from this experiment, I think I will at least be crossing these babies over a little higher than before. I'm curious what these things will measure like on the RTA going full range and what cuts I will have to make. I didn't want to mess with the rcas at the dsp so I don't have the full 31 band eq to work with but for very temporary I think I can make do with the 10 band parametric on those channels.

Yes, yes, I know all about that weird sloping floor. I actually didn't bother with it too much. The woofer doesn't touch anywhere with my trim piece. What did you think of that crappy thin metal that Toyota gave us down there?!?!? I was very disappointed to say the least and I think that is where alot of the road noise eminates from. Did you get yours undercoated by any chance? I have really thought about doing that lately but want to know if it really does help with road/exhaust noise much.

Sadly, the midbass experiment will have to wait for a while. After having to shell out what I just did for a new midbass amp, I am a little dry on fundage now. In a couple months I might be able to sneak that by the wife. We'll see. It might of helped if I didn't decide to upgrade my midbass amp tho and went for a cheaper one. I figured, it was a great deal I got and why go in reverse tho. I thought 290 watts of Twister power was nice. I can't wait to see what 340 watts of Mosconi power does for me. I think ultimately, I want to move to all Mosconi power but I will have to wait and see what this one sounds like. BTW, I went with the One series 120.4 if you are curious. The AS100.4 was just a little too far out of budget and do I really need 450 watts on midbasses?


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## james2266

Sound Suggestions said:


> All that you describe is what I am looking for  I have 2 amps to pick from (which I own, the arc se2300 or Zapco reference 1100.1) I think (hope) that I'm covered when it comes to power
> 
> To the OP, keep us updated on your findings
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using DIYMA


Yep, I think either of those would work great and better than my setup. I have been thinking about what to go to if I move completely away from Audison/Hertz which I think alot about. That Arc is on my list. The Zapco is way too big however. Some of the newer Zaps might cut it tho. Unfortunately, I need two amps to replace my 5.1k and am limited on both space and especially funds right now.


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## Sound Suggestions

james2266 said:


> Yep, I think either of those would work great and better than my setup. I have been thinking about what to go to if I move completely away from Audison/Hertz which I think alot about. That Arc is on my list. The Zapco is way too big however. Some of the newer Zaps might cut it tho. Unfortunately, I need two amps to replace my 5.1k and am limited on both space and especially funds right now.


Funny I replaced my Audison lrx 5.1k with 2 arc se's (2300/4200)...the arc sound full, but In a way I still miss my 5.1 (for a 5ch amp) it sure packed a punch and sounded wonderfully also. I have 3 Zapco's still new in box (1100.1 / 360.4 & 350.2) I've finally decided to go 3way active up front so I'll need to move the arc's to make room for the Zapco's! (hope I don't regret it!)

To the original OP, I thought I read on an other post that you were also considering the Morel Ultimo?



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## avanti1960

james,
no, my car was not undercoated and i really don't notice much road noise from the back- maybe they upgrade the cover plus it had a full size "sport" piece of thick carpet covering the plastic covers. 
sounds like you have quite a project on your hands. when you get a minute i would be interested in hearing about all the amps you ran / will run and the total power. did you do anything with the big three wiring or alternator? 

-

sound sugstions-

the ultimo actually "modeled" with the same lower F3, FB and near ideal Qtc as the ScanSpeak in my enclosure these were the only (2) out of dozens that I researched. I did not consider it because it would not fit (diameter is smaller) and it was more than I wanted to spend on a subwoofer.


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## james2266

avanti1960 said:


> james,
> no, my car was not undercoated and i really don't notice much road noise from the back- maybe they upgrade the cover plus it had a full size "sport" piece of thick carpet covering the plastic covers.
> sounds like you have quite a project on your hands. when you get a minute i would be interested in hearing about all the amps you ran / will run and the total power. did you do anything with the big three wiring or alternator?
> 
> -
> 
> sound sugstions-
> 
> the ultimo actually "modeled" with the same lower F3, FB and near ideal Qtc as the ScanSpeak in my enclosure these were the only (2) out of dozens that I researched. I did not consider it because it would not fit (diameter is smaller) and it was more than I wanted to spend on a subwoofer.



I am surprised that you say you do not notice much road noise from the back. Have you put in any sound deadening on the floor of the vehicle? I have and maybe that is why I notice most of my noise coming from the rear of the vehicle. I also have a v6 which might be why I notice so much more exhaust noise too. When it comes time to replace the muffler someday, I will seriously look into one that produces less noise if possible. I might look into getting a little more dampener for that area under the sub where I think alot of that noise comes from too. I put some in and it does have ccf and mlv back there and it did help for sure but I want more silence back there still.

As for the amps I have ran in this vehicle, I have only run two different ones so far. I have always had the Audison LRx 5.1k running my sub and tweeters. I did have it running my midbasses but when I went three way I bought an Audiosystem Twister F4/380 and bridged it for my midbasses to give them potentially twice the power. That is the amp I accidently fried about a week ago. The midranges were being powered by the B channels of my Audison. The new Mosconi amp I am waiting on will take the place of the Twister amp for my midbasses. So, my power will be as follows: Audison 5.1k - tweets - 50 watts (A class), midrange (150 watts - turned way down obviously) and sub (1150 watts) and the Mosconi will be producing 340 watts to my midbasses once again turned way down I think. I really am anxious to see what the Mosconi brings as I am really thinking of moving to all MOsconi amplification way down the road possibly. That would mean running 3 amps back there and a tonne more money going out however My next thing I think is going to be larger midbasses whenever I get some fundage back and I actually figure out which set I want to go with actually.

As for the Ultimo and the Scan sub you have, I think we both wanted the same things from it. I didn't actually look at the Scan sub and I kind of wish I had after what my 10f brings to the table for me. The Ultimo brings a beautiful sounding sub but it takes a tonne of power to move it and get the spl level I want. I also seem to have an issue with that 60 Hz frequency band we know of. I am curious if you will still have the same issue once you get around to rtaing it. I thought it was my cover doing something in that region but I tested that yesterday and still there even without the cover in place. I think I could get it all right if I were to get a 2nd sub and use more eq but there is no room for a 2nd and that would be expensive. I think if I can get a midbass in the doors that doesn't die at 60 Hz, it might work. I am pretty much down to two drivers - the cheap and the expensive. A Scan Discovery 8 or the Dyn mw182. There are aspects I like of both drivers and was a little surprised they have identical sd values (cone area). I like the Dyn's high qts (better for ib?) and its less than 3 inches depth but hate its price tag (even tho I have found a great deal on a new pair) and slightly wider might be an issue. The Scan I like the price alot but the depth is about an inch deeper which might be a problem. Also the qts is alot lower which might mean it won't play as well ib. Decisions. Hopefully, I will get to hear some larger midbasses in a couple weeks at my first car audio competition (as a spectator).


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## avanti1960

james,
good luck with your new amp. you are running the best out there. you may want to try the mosconis on the midrange / tweeters- they sounded extremely clean when i heard the amps. 
BTW I have no floor sound deadening. i have the V6 4WD sport with appearance package (no spare tire on door). I do not hear any exhaust or muffler noise either.


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## avanti1960

Update on the Scan sub, 09/13/12.

After running this sub for 4 days it is starting to break in and increase its output. I'll wait a few weeks before I run the RTA but I can say right now that it is a much better SQ sub than the JL 12W3 was and there is no way I will go back to it. 
The scan sub does play the lower notes- many many awesome sounding low frequency notes and sounds are coming from my music and radio than i ever had with the JL sub. They are low notes that have real shake-ability and rumble just by playing the ultra low freqs- this would be a great home theatre sub. the rumbles actually have definition though and they can change in pitch or volume depending on the music. 
In effect hearing the really low notes on so much music is already meeting my expectations for the upgrade. 
The JL would hit hard and crisp but only on a very limited frequency range- almost like it had one note that it did very well but that was it. 
The scan is not quite as crisp as the JL during those type of notes but it still does sound very good when asked do do the typical sub "beats". Where it shines is the different notes and frequencies that it can also do. I am sold. Stay tuned for more updates as I know this one will get better as time goes on.


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## james2266

avanti1960 said:


> james,
> good luck with your new amp. you are running the best out there. you may want to try the mosconis on the midrange / tweeters- they sounded extremely clean when i heard the amps.
> BTW I have no floor sound deadening. i have the V6 4WD sport with appearance package (no spare tire on door). I do not hear any exhaust or muffler noise either.


Maybe that spare tire is causing most of the noise I hear... That is about the only difference I can think of between our two vehicles back there. Mine SHOULD be alot quieter than yours due to all of the ccf/mlv I have wall papered all over the vehicle pretty much from the windows down. One guy did tell me that the rear door can be adjusted to shut tighter? I have not played with that as I really don't know how to go about that really and don't want to risk damaging something. The next time I take it in for service I might ask them about it.

As I have to move a pile of wires around to get the new amp installed, I was actually toying with the idea of trying out the new amp on the midranges/tweeters just for kicks. I need that power for the midbass ultimately however. Down the road if I move completely away from Audison like I have thought about for over a year now, it will be nice to know what the Mosconi can do on the higher frequencies. I am going to try to see if I can get the Twister fixed actually. I figured, why not I did really like the amp's sound and power. My installer/dealer guessed it was probably the output transistors I fried with the dmm and he figured around $250 repair. I thought that was stupid but it might be worth getting it at least looked at. It could be something alot more simple too. I have no idea who could do it here and would probably have to ship it out for repair. Is there anyone on here that could do a repair and possibly mod it a little in the process. One thing I would love is to get an actual real power terminal block installed on it. The factory power connections absolutely suck and it has been the one big thing I hated about that amp. Anyways, if anyone is willing PM me and we can discuss. 

Sorry to side track this thread here a bit. I might just put up a thread on this on my own and see.


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## james2266

avanti1960 said:


> Update on the Scan sub, 09/13/12.
> 
> After running this sub for 4 days it is starting to break in and increase its output. I'll wait a few weeks before I run the RTA but I can say right now that it is a much better SQ sub than the JL 12W3 was and there is no way I will go back to it.
> The scan sub does play the lower notes- many many awesome sounding low frequency notes and sounds are coming from my music and radio than i ever had with the JL sub. They are low notes that have real shake-ability and rumble just by playing the ultra low freqs- this would be a great home theatre sub. the rumbles actually have definition though and they can change in pitch or volume depending on the music.
> In effect hearing the really low notes on so much music is already meeting my expectations for the upgrade.
> The JL would hit hard and crisp but only on a very limited frequency range- almost like it had one note that it did very well but that was it.
> The scan is not quite as crisp as the JL during those type of notes but it still does sound very good when asked do do the typical sub "beats". Where it shines is the different notes and frequencies that it can also do. I am sold. Stay tuned for more updates as I know this one will get better as time goes on.


Glad to hear you are really digging the new sub. I have a question tho too. What kind of power are you running for your sub?


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## avanti1960

500 watts of JL Audio Class D power. It is enough for the sub to keep up with the the loudest music that I can tolerate. 

Why do you want to give up the Audison amps? Those are supposed to be right near the top of the SQ heap.


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## james2266

I have actually talked to several guys on here that have moved away from them and mostly for the same reason I am thinking of doing it. If you want to discuss my reasons and what others have told me, just PM me on it. Lets try to keep this about that Scan sub now. Still doin' it for ya? I am really curious about that rta plot when you get it. I was playing with pretty much just the sub earlier today and confirmed the rta plot pretty much falls off the map any higher than about 60 Hz. This was with no other speakers playing and the crossover way up at 80 Hz. It really puzzles me. I am down to it is a vehicle anomaly or a problem with my box. I am starting to lean more toward the first. When I get some time (maybe Monday), I might just try hooking up my old Boston G2-10 and see if it does the same thing or not. If nothing else it will be a nice afternoon experiment. If it only wasn't so hard to take that damned box out.


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## avanti1960

Update 9/15/12
The more I listen to the new Scan Discovery sub the more I am completely satisfied with the upgrade and blown away with how much a difference it made. The ability to play the low notes / low frequencies is key- something most of us can do on paper doing modeling and using the T/S parameters in the spec sheets. 
The link here is a very simple one but it will tell you the all important "F3" and box volume. 
Speaker Box Enclosure Designer / Calculator

After testing about 30 or so 12" subs, (not the edible kind) most had an F3 of 45 to 50 Hz or above. To me, if your sub starts rolling off 3 db and 12 db per octave at 45 or 50 Hz, it is not doing its job! Basically you have a speaker that plays from 50 to 80Hz- no wonder it sounds like a one note wonder and is either on or off depending on the music! 

Only (2) that I modeled had an F3 lower then 40 Hz (sealed), the Scan Discovery and the Morel Ultimo. I'm sure there are more but I was limited in depth and had an existing box volume of 1.4cuft. The really deep low end rumble and physical energy of the really low bass sounds is really a significant enhancement to your basic slam box sub.
So please do your modeling in advance of any sub purchase or enclosure construction / planning. Go low- you will not be disappointed!


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## avanti1960

The verdict is in- this sub is SQ sweet! i like it when you make a plan on paper that looks very promising and then the execution all comes together just as planned! 
In this case i was looking for a big SQ upgrade for my subwoofer that played much lower frequencies than the original driver in the same exact enclosure. I was missing that in my music and wanted to regain the really lowest of the lows almost home theatre style but not sound sloppy, boomy or be a one note wonder. 

In all actuality this particular upgrade exceeded my expectations. Look at the attached RTA plot. 
The yellow curve is the old sub and the green curve is the ScanSpeak discovery. Same amp gain, same head unit channel level, same volume, same pink noise track, identical mic position, identical crossover and no equalization. it is an apples to apples comparison.
The Scan subwoofer is up 14 db @ 20 Hz and up 8db @ 30 Hz!!!! This is huge and so is the sound!!

I am not trying to degrade the previous subwoofer, it is just that it was not to my liking. It had a very solid hit when called upon- almost too solid. No timbre or tonality, just a hard physical one note slam. 
Some people may like that and for certain types of music this works the best.

The ScanSpeak on the other hand can produce the physical "punch" but the sound has more than one dimension- it has a distinct build up, crescendo and timbre (but all this happens in the blink of an eye). Not just a quick on / quick off slam. 
It also makes the sound in my car more full and warm. It must have an extended upper range as well that allows some contribution as it rolls past the 80 Hz low pass crossover. 

Not your 1 kilowatt rocket launcher sub by any definition but a very highly recommend subwoofer nonetheless if you want low extended musical bass with definition and the thunderous power that comes with being able to reproduce those notes.


----------



## trumpet

Genesis was one of my favorite bands as a child, and I discovered their older material a few years ago. Firth of Fifth is one of many great songs from before their pop transition. It's chilling watching some of the Genesis live performance videos with Peter Gabriel on YouTube.


----------



## james2266

Wow, that is a serious difference in low end extension there. I'm glad that you are happy with the new sub still. On looking at your rta plots tho, did you do some tuning to your midbass/midranges? There seems to be quite a rise at 200, 500 and roughly 1500 Hz from your previous readings. It actually makes your overall curve look a little umm... smoother however. I also noticed that you are still getting a rather large dip at around 70 Hz. It actually looks like the gulf is widened quite a bit there too. Have you tried reversing polarity on the sub there? I noticed my gulf widened quite a bit when I reversed the polarity on my sub. Just me 2c. I can't wait until I get my new amp in - probably sometime this week coming up. Then I'll have to decide what to do with my midbasses (if anything). Good thing I am rather low on cash at the moment and my midbasses aren't having issues like I thought.


----------



## avanti1960

trumpet said:


> Genesis was one of my favorite bands as a child, and I discovered their older material a few years ago. Firth of Fifth is one of many great songs from before their pop transition. It's chilling watching some of the Genesis live performance videos with Peter Gabriel on YouTube.


cool, they were my favorite band as a young teenager- my older cousins were serious music fans and turned me on to progressive rock. selling england is my favorite album- they just do not make music like this anymore- truly artistic, classical based, long extended songs, etc. The keyboard interludes that close out "cinema show" are unbelievable and sound awesome in the car, especially if you have your midrange frequencies up high. i played that after i installed the L3SEs and was transformed into another world. 
gabriel was an artistic genius, those u-tube videos of the early days show that he was a little too "out there" for most but eventually he reeled it in nicely. 

if having a nice system is still all about the music then it becomes even more valuable.


----------



## avanti1960

james2266 said:


> Wow, that is a serious difference in low end extension there. I'm glad that you are happy with the new sub still. On looking at your rta plots tho, did you do some tuning to your midbass/midranges? There seems to be quite a rise at 200, 500 and roughly 1500 Hz from your previous readings. It actually makes your overall curve look a little umm... smoother however. I also noticed that you are still getting a rather large dip at around 70 Hz. It actually looks like the gulf is widened quite a bit there too. Have you tried reversing polarity on the sub there? I noticed my gulf widened quite a bit when I reversed the polarity on my sub. Just me 2c. I can't wait until I get my new amp in - probably sometime this week coming up. Then I'll have to decide what to do with my midbasses (if anything). Good thing I am rather low on cash at the moment and my midbasses aren't having issues like I thought.


yeah, i am surprised at the way the curve looked too- the 200 Hz valley is gone for some reason, I can only think the new sub plays higher. no boost added, just some cuts between 100 Hz- to 400 Hz if anything- done by ear not by the RTA.
I did do lots of experimenting with crossover points, slopes, phase etc to try and raise the 70 Hz valley but in the end the original settings sounded and looked the best- 80 Hz / 36 db for sub and midbass, sub was always reverse phase.
However everything above 150 Hz may not be entirely accurate relative to the yellow curve because I did not average multiple mic positions for the green curve. Below 150 Hz averaging is pretty identical to individual mic readings- although I usually always get the 200 Hz valley. 
I guess the 70 Hz valley is based on vehicle issues / standing waves at ear level. 
I did a little research about this on some home theater forums and some people have success filling in holes using multiple subs.
This will not be on my to-do list anytime soon!

Good luck with your new amp- i bet you see a nice difference, keep us posted.


----------



## quickaudi07

Sound Suggestions said:


> I've most recently went from a JL 10W6v2 to a 10w7 to 12w7 and now the ID Max 12" (all sealed enclosures) a step pretty much in the right direction every time...since the ID Max I've been stung again to try something maybe even better "the" Morel Ultimo 12" From what I've read that seems to be exactly what I'm looking for; I'm growing tired of aggressive subwoofer that play loud but have no finesse in doing so, I'm not saying the above don't have finesse, they just seem to add something to the music that doesn't belong, they either play too loud or not loud enough, some music sounds good other doesn't!? The ID Max is the best subwoofer that I have owned, but after reading reviews here and there the morel seem to be where it's at!
> 
> I've spent ssssoooo much money on car audio that if it only takes $700 to finally find true sub happiness (hopefully) I'd be willing to spend it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using DIYMA


Im going to get my car tuned by one of diy members and I have Morel Ultime playing on Mosconi 300.2 amp @4 ohm and I truly love it. I had jl 10w7. IDMAX 12" and you just cant go wrong with Morel.

It really blends with my front stage Morel mids and vifa tweets. 
I spend well over 5k on my car audio. Just experience and this being as a hobby of mine drove me nuts when I sat down and added everything not includeing the labor that I did.

Get your last peace of puzzle and u be very happy.... im sure not everyone wants to spend that kind of money on a sub. But u really pay for what you get.
My sub gets maybe 500-800 w rms on good days and its amezing! 

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## james2266

quickaudi07 said:


> Im going to get my car tuned by one of diy members and I have Morel Ultime playing on Mosconi 300.2 amp @4 ohm and I truly love it. I had jl 10w7. IDMAX 12" and you just cant go wrong with Morel.
> 
> It really blends with my front stage Morel mids and vifa tweets.
> I spend well over 5k on my car audio. Just experience and this being as a hobby of mine drove me nuts when I sat down and added everything not includeing the labor that I did.
> 
> Get your last peace of puzzle and u be very happy.... im sure not everyone wants to spend that kind of money on a sub. But u really pay for what you get.
> My sub gets maybe 500-800 w rms on good days and its amezing!
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2


I have my Morel 12 2 ohm powered by my Audison LRx5.1k which can provide 1150 watts rms. I really would love to hear your setup. Moving completely to Mosconi power is something I really would love to do but too bad they are so damned expensive and I already have so much invested. I am told there would be a big difference but it is alot of money to spend on something that I might not notice a difference in sound. The Ultimo is the best sub I have owned but then again I have only owned a Boston G210 and a Hertz ML2500 before in my setup. I do think I could use a larger box for it. I want it to still be stealth however and the only way I can think of to make it larger would require fiberglass and a false floor. Maybe next year. I think my 8-10 inch midbass project will happen before that however


----------



## quickaudi07

I went to meet up a friend from DIY today, and he was very impressed with my system, and how Mosconi amps and Morel Sub preformed. He loved it... also he loved the way H800 works in my car, and overall how it sounds... After tuning my system, new image has hit my ears and i was in love....

I don’t think I could go back to normal car listening, what an experience....
And yes, Mosconi amps are expensive, and I went from JL, to Zuki, to Mosconi… and WoW…
These amps really made my ears shine, you will notice big difference, I’m not saying all the brands that I had are bad in anyway. I just think it’s a big step up from Zuki to Mosconi… I have noticed so much more detail; speakers are so much faster, crisp and clean. Does it get loud??? Yes it does and its nice and clean! Car audio hobby isn’t cheep at all, I have save dup for my setup for very long time until I was able to purchase it. I’m glad I save dup and bought them. When I got home my good friend has jumped in to a passenger side and he said why does it sound funny like the sound is out of place.. I started laughing, and said have a seat in the driver side. I told him to relax, close his eyes, and just enjoy,
Haha, when the song was over, he didn’t know what to say!... he was shocked!


----------



## SoulMan76

avanti1960 said:


> After testing about 30 or so 12" subs, (not the edible kind) most had an F3 of 45 to 50 Hz or above. To me, if your sub starts rolling off 3 db and 12 db per octave at 45 or 50 Hz, it is not doing its job! Basically you have a speaker that plays from 50 to 80Hz- no wonder it sounds like a one note wonder and is either on or off depending on the music!


I really agree with you here. I only have a 12W0, in a stealthbox, getting 200w from a JL XD amp. And it can hit decently hard on certain things, but I can tell that at certain postions on the bass neck, the difference in how loud the notes are. It almost seems like the sub isn't even on till just the right note gets played, like wheres most of the top e bass string???

I am far from an experience SQ guy nor am I a critical listener, but I am a guitar player, that can tell when something is missing.

Glad your are enjoying your new sub. Thanks for the write up.


----------



## captainscarlett

james2266 said:


> I run the Ultimo and it is definitely an acquired taste. I was told once, when I was looking around, the difference between the Ultimo and the IDMax is the IDMax is more likely to fill your vehicle with powerful bass and be more of an spl sub than the Ultimo ever would be. The Ultimo is pure sq. It does everything it should and nothing more. It digs deep and it blends effortlessly. It will never wake the neighbors however. Oh, and the Ultimo requires a **** tonne of power and that is no joke. If you don't have 1000 watts rms for it, don't even bother. I was told more like 1200 watts rms actually. I am running 1150 rms and I actually think at times it could use more.



I wonder if the lesser (more in my current budget) Primo would be a bit more agreeable?


----------



## Frijoles24

i got myself this scanspeak cause of the review. Its been about a week and a half since installing it. it really blends in well with my front stage. 
it doesnt sound like i have a 'sub' in my car. instead it adds a really nice warmth to the music. 
i been listening to a lot of pipe organ music and my old sub wasnt cutting it. when the low notes hit, it distorted and wobbled all over. with the scanspeak, it hits and holds the note maintaining that airy deep rumble.


----------



## tokapaho

Any chance that the 10" would give a similar quality of bass (12" will not fit my truck)?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Frijoles24

tokapaho said:


> Any chance that the 10" would give a similar quality of bass (12" will not fit my truck)?


i needed a 10" too, but i really wanted the depth(on paper) of the 12". i put mine into a .83cu^ft with a port tuned at 24hz. 
i cant say anything about the 10" discovery, tho.


----------



## avanti1960

update 10/12/12

after running this sub for a month the thing is still breaking in. just this past week i noticed it was louder and more apparent than it has been on bass heavy music. i actually had to back off on my deck's subwoofer level control by 3db in order to balance it out. 
it continues to be a very smooth musical SQ sub that can really play and sustain the dramatic low notes and frequencies. the sub can still rock though- it can deliver a mean punch when called for and still blend with the rest of the system. in all fairness though the time alignment is probably a big help with this aspect. no regrets and i'd buy it again in an instant.


----------



## Frijoles24

Thanks for the review and getting me a good budget sub!


----------



## Sound Suggestions

quickaudi07 said:


> Im going to get my car tuned by one of diy members and I have Morel Ultime playing on Mosconi 300.2 amp @4 ohm and I truly love it. I had jl 10w7. IDMAX 12" and you just cant go wrong with Morel.
> 
> It really blends with my front stage Morel mids and vifa tweets.
> I spend well over 5k on my car audio. Just experience and this being as a hobby of mine drove me nuts when I sat down and added everything not includeing the labor that I did.
> 
> Get your last peace of puzzle and u be very happy.... im sure not everyone wants to spend that kind of money on a sub. But u really pay for what you get.
> My sub gets maybe 500-800 w rms on good days and its amezing!
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2



Sorry I missed your reply, thx...I'm pretty much sold on getting 1-12"Morel Ultimo or 2x10" Morel sc (or 2x12")...I'm not giving up on maybe 1x12" Dynaudio if the opportunity presents itself 

Yes Card Audio is expensive but for me worth it!


----------



## SoulMan76

avanti1960 said:


> update 10/12/12
> 
> after running this sub for a month the thing is still breaking in. just this past week i noticed it was louder and more apparent than it has been on bass heavy music. i actually had to back off on my deck's subwoofer level control by 3db in order to balance it out.
> it continues to be a very smooth musical SQ sub that can really play and sustain the dramatic low notes and frequencies. the sub can still rock though- it can deliver a mean punch when called for and still blend with the rest of the system. in all fairness though the time alignment is probably a big help with this aspect. no regrets and i'd buy it again in an instant.




You definitely have me considering this, and I'm glad it's working out well. From what I can tell it would fit my application pretty good, and is the right depth, just a matter of getting the $$ to get it. Looks like I'll have to sell off some other stuff along with the JL sub in there now. 

The really big bonus here, is that my tweeters and sub will both be made by scanspeak, after all that's most important thing to consider in mobile audio right?...j/k LOL


----------



## ZAKOH

I am having an itch to try this subwoofer out. It seems based on reviews like it's a good high end subwoofer comparable to high end JBL and JL subwoofers. It would be great to have it in my car, but a car audio install will probably wait as I wouldn't want to "waste" this subwoofer in a crappy install I have right now. I am thinking of using it as a home audio subwoofer in a 2cu ft sealed box, coupled with a two way TM or MTM speaker system.


----------



## SoulMan76

If you do, let's us know what you think. I just traded for a Vifa sub that should do great in my setup, but may still want to try this at some point down the road.


----------



## ecobass

Congratz on your new ScanSpeak sub, not so good for JL Audio since i heard and had the idea they were the best sq subs out there but after reading all this, you got me thinking twice. lol.....

I do have a few question that i hope you can answer:

1) A good quality subwoofer that only needs 175w Rms feed can play lower notes/more quality bass inside a vehicle than another sub that requires 250w Rms?

2) which of the two would be louder though?

3) How can you take freq. response into account and bring it into the mix with the previous questions to get the best quality bass in a sealed box that does not disturb the neighbors but instead fills your car ?


----------



## t3sn4f2

ecobass said:


> *Congratz on your new ScanSpeak sub, not so good for JL Audio since i heard and had the idea they were the best sq subs out there but after reading all this, you got me thinking twice. lol.....*
> 
> I do have a few question that i hope you can answer:
> 
> 1) A good quality subwoofer that only needs 175w Rms feed can play lower notes/more quality bass inside a vehicle than another sub that requires 250w Rms?
> 
> 2) which of the two would be louder though?
> 
> 3) How can you take freq. response into account and bring it into the mix with the previous questions to get the best quality bass in a sealed box that does not disturb the neighbors but instead fills your car ?


JL makes many different subs. From entry level to high end.


----------



## avanti1960

ecobass said:


> Congratz on your new ScanSpeak sub, not so good for JL Audio since i heard and had the idea they were the best sq subs out there but after reading all this, you got me thinking twice. lol.....
> 
> I do have a few question that i hope you can answer:
> 
> 1) A good quality subwoofer that only needs 175w Rms feed can play lower notes/more quality bass inside a vehicle than another sub that requires 250w Rms?
> 
> 2) which of the two would be louder though?
> 
> 3) How can you take freq. response into account and bring it into the mix with the previous questions to get the best quality bass in a sealed box that does not disturb the neighbors but instead fills your car ?


just to reiterate, the JL sub that I replaced is a very good sub. it plays loud, clean and with authority. it can play in ported or sealed enclosures. the problem i had with it is that in the recommended box volume the F3 was too high for my tastes, approximately 43 Hz. i did not realize this when i purchased the sub and designed my box. 

for your needs you should look at various subs that are efficient / sensitive as well as have the right F3 and Qtc for your enclosure volume. there are online calculators that will help with this. 
do you want to play low frequencies or are you happy with a powerful slam box? it's your call.


----------



## captainscarlett

avanti1960 said:


> update 10/12/12
> 
> after running this sub for a month the thing is still breaking in. just this past week i noticed it was louder and more apparent than it has been on bass heavy music. i actually had to back off on my deck's subwoofer level control by 3db in order to balance it out.
> it continues to be a very smooth musical SQ sub that can really play and sustain the dramatic low notes and frequencies. the sub can still rock though- it can deliver a mean punch when called for and still blend with the rest of the system. in all fairness though the time alignment is probably a big help with this aspect. no regrets and i'd buy it again in an instant.





Frijoles24 said:


> it doesnt sound like i have a 'sub' in my car. instead it adds a really nice warmth to the music.


i've heard that comment about a few subs. I'm starting to wonder if its the subs or a matter of having it set up properly?

From a amateur/novice point of view, i was looking at parts-express the other day (from the UK .. drooling over the prices) and i came to the conclusion or the thought; why am i buying car audio brands for my car audio, when other ... brands seem to be a good/better choice on paper? I was looking at this Peerless XLS10 sub, looking at the T/S parameters, nothing else comes close for the price. Am i mad?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120998895859?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

ScanSpeak, Peerless, Dayton, Vifa even the likes of Tang Band don't seem to be bad choices.

When i took my Hybrid audio I6SW sub out for a test on some unsuspecting people, one question i got was; is it a home audio sub? Although the guy still thought i had a 12" sub in the back!


----------



## coffee_junkee

I have the 10" version, has seen just a few hours of play time and so far I'm really impressed. I have it in .68 sealed and stuffed with some loose fiberfill. 

It plays the lowest of notes with authority and gets plenty loud off a modest (250w) amount of power. The remainder of my planned upgrades will be in the build log section starting this week, I'll post more feedback there.


----------



## ZAKOH

ecobass said:


> Congratz on your new ScanSpeak sub, not so good for JL Audio since i heard and had the idea they were the best sq subs out there but after reading all this, you got me thinking twice. lol.....
> 
> I do have a few question that i hope you can answer:
> 
> 1) A good quality subwoofer that only needs 175w Rms feed can play lower notes/more quality bass inside a vehicle than another sub that requires 250w Rms?


It seems like one rule of thumb in subwoofer design is that subwoofers with high sensitivity have low power handling. I have been playing with this subwoofer in WinISD, and I would say, a good amount of power to run to it is 250-300watts. The reason is because in a 1.5 cu ft sealed box, the 12mm xmax excursion is exceeded with about 250watts. The predicted sensitivity is actually very good (e.g. with 250watts of power it could be about as loud as another sub I was modeling with 400watts of power). The downside is that it won't handle much power past that. xmax is exceeded past 250watts, and will probably bottom out on the right low end content at 400-600watts of power. 

Now other subwoofers with lower sensitivity _could_ actually get louder if sufficient power is provided. After all, this subwoofer has 12mm xmax. A lot of 12 inch subwoofers have 17-20mm. I think in real life it won't matter a lot IMO.


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## avanti1960

update 10/22/2012.

today i was noticing the sub went up another notch in SQ, the "hits" are becoming noticeably cleaner and firmer- the thing is still breaking in after almost 6 weeks. totally impressed.


----------



## MJacobs112

How long would you say you've had it playing total? (Measured in hours)


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## avanti1960

at the time of the review ~ 90 hours. i listen at least 13 to 16 hours a week.


----------



## Hanatsu

Bought one of these a few weeks ago. Tried it in a 1,5ft³ sealed enclosure first, but I decided on a vented enclosure instead. 1,8ft³ tuned at 32Hz, enormous low end, had to pull down 25-35Hz roughly 12dB with EQ. No "subsonic" highpass filter applied. I have nothing to complain about, it's pretty similar to my old Peerless XXLS. Great build quality as well. I recommend this driver in any SQ build. I can post measured T/S parameters and a FR sweep/HD graph later this week if someone's interested.


----------



## subwoofery

Hanatsu said:


> I can post measured T/S parameters and a FR sweep/HD graph later this week if someone's interested.


Off course we are  

Kelvin


----------



## avanti1960

Hanatsu said:


> Bought one of these a few weeks ago. Tried it in a 1,5ft³ sealed enclosure first, but I decided on a vented enclosure instead. 1,8ft³ tuned at 32Hz, enormous low end, had to pull down 25-35Hz roughly 12dB with EQ. No "subsonic" highpass filter applied. I have nothing to complain about, it's pretty similar to my old Peerless XXLS. Great build quality as well. I recommend this driver in any SQ build. I can post measured T/S parameters and a FR sweep/HD graph later this week if someone's interested.


awesome! you went for ported before it even started to break in! post your results when you get a chance, i'm definitely interested.


----------



## Hanatsu

avanti1960 said:


> awesome! you went for ported before it even started to break in! post your results when you get a chance, i'm definitely interested.


Nah, it's broken in. Pink noise for 72h 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


----------



## Hanatsu

I actually bought another one, got it on a sale with a 40% discount. I'm gonna do a little experiment. I'm measuring T/S data with DATS before break-in, after 1h, 12h, 24h, 48h. See what changes and how long it takes to the parameters to stabilize. Hoping to get a little bit more understand of the break-in period. If it affects non linear distortion for example. I will run IMD/HD/FR sweeps this weekend. I'll compare it to another high end sub and see how it performs.


----------



## james2266

Hanatsu said:


> I actually bought another one, got it on a sale with a 40% discount. I'm gonna do a little experiment. I'm measuring T/S data with DATS before break-in, after 1h, 12h, 24h, 48h. See what changes and how long it takes to the parameters to stabilize. Hoping to get a little bit more understand of the break-in period. If it affects non linear distortion for example. I will run IMD/HD/FR sweeps this weekend. I'll compare it to another high end sub and see how it performs.


Cool, sounds like a neat experiment. I am curious of your findings. I will be tuning in.


----------



## Hanatsu

Alright... It's still playing noise for another day or so but I don't think it matters really. Kind of surprised over the results. It seems like the drivers T/S parameters stabilizes at with a Fs of 20.86Hz after just 2 hours or so. If it doesn't decrease in the coming day I presume that break-in period does not last longer than that. Qts decreases slightly over time but it's far to 0.31 which SS specd. The lower VAS/higher Fs/higher Q indicates that the driver is stiffer than it's supposed to. Guess I give it some more time...

Here's a report from DATS:

*Right out of the box:*










*After one hour:*










*After 24 hours:*










Compare this to Scan-Speaks own specs:

http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/30w-4558t00.pdf

Fs: 17Hz (Measured: 20.86Hz / Difference (%): +22,7)
Qts: 0,32 (Measured: 0,421 / Difference (%): +31,5)
VAS: 197lit (Measured: 132,3 / Difference (%): -49,2)
Qms: 5,01 (Measured: 5,8 / Difference (%): +15,6)
Qes: 0,34 (Measured: 0,454 / Difference (%): +33,5)
Re: 2,6ohm (Measured: 2,54 / Difference (%): -2,7)

I will perform further tests once I conclude that the drivers break-in period is done.

Oh btw... the ambient temperature was pretty constant. Room temperature that is...


----------



## ZAKOH

FS is unusually low (measured and from specs).


----------



## avanti1960

+
YouTube Video









ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.







ZAKOH said:


> FS is unusually low (measured and from specs).


that's why i like it- it had the lowest F3 of any sub I modeled for my 1.41 box.


----------



## avanti1960

Hanatsu said:


> Alright... It's still playing noise for another day or so but I don't think it matters really. Kind of surprised over the results. It seems like the drivers T/S parameters stabilizes at with a Fs of 20.86Hz after just 2 hours or so. If it doesn't decrease in the coming day I presume that break-in period does not last longer than that. Qts decreases slightly over time but it's far to 0.31 which SS specd. The lower VAS/higher Fs/higher Q indicates that the driver is stiffer than it's supposed to. Guess I give it some more time...
> 
> Here's a report from DATS:
> 
> *Right out of the box:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *After one hour:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *After 24 hours:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Compare this to Scan-Speaks own specs:
> 
> http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/30w-4558t00.pdf
> 
> Fs: 17Hz (Measured: 20.86Hz / Difference (%): +22,7)
> Qts: 0,32 (Measured: 0,421 / Difference (%): +31,5)
> VAS: 197lit (Measured: 132,3 / Difference (%): -49,2)
> Qms: 5,01 (Measured: 5,8 / Difference (%): +15,6)
> Qes: 0,34 (Measured: 0,454 / Difference (%): +33,5)
> Re: 2,6ohm (Measured: 2,54 / Difference (%): -2,7)
> 
> I will perform further tests once I conclude that the drivers break-in period is done.
> 
> Oh btw... the ambient temperature was pretty constant. Room temperature that is...


thanks for the info and testing. after running this one in my car for ~ 90 hours I can attest to the fact that it sounds different and better since it was first installed- your testing (if accurate) shows what we might expect- the the sub is stiffer out of the box vs. published specs- and that the published specs might have been recorded / measured after significant break in.


----------



## Hanatsu

70 hours+ now. No change in Fs, still 20.86Hz, but Q continually decreases. Qts at 0.37 now and Vas at 151lit. So I'm keeping it on noise for another day and see if it changes further.


----------



## james2266

Hanatsu said:


> 70 hours+ now. No change in Fs, still 20.86Hz, but Q continually decreases. Qts at 0.37 now and Vas at 151lit. So I'm keeping it on noise for another day and see if it changes further.


Very interesting...


----------



## t3sn4f2

You bass heads are getting a little carried away with these 50 or so cycles. Remember! they only make up .3% of the audible music spectrum. And in a range where we are least sensitive to degradation, by far.


----------



## subwoofery

Hmm... Vas is high, wondering how this one would do IB 

Kelvin


----------



## Hanatsu

Break-in is done. T/S parameters stabilized after 85 hours. No change at all after 100 hours now. There really was a parameter change during the testing. 

My conclusion is this; If the driver is not broken in - 

Q is higher than spec.
Fs is higher than spec.
Vas is lower than spec.

I'm making a front plate for HD testing tonight, I'll post the results later. I'll try some other new driver and see if the results is consistent with these findings.


----------



## avanti1960

interesting- T/S parameters took ~ 85 hours to stabilize. unless i am imagining things this corresponds with my noting different sound characteristics up until ~ 90 hours of use in my car.


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## Horuspeed

Hello guys, I bought one today, could you give us more data with your impressions and subwoofer box, please? avanti1960 what sort of equalization did you set up? I want to try the same box you did in my golf GTI, gonna make a false floor to put the new box. 
Do you think the orientation of the subwoofer would help spatializing? Firing rearward or firing upward, or it doesn't matter?


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## t3sn4f2

Horuspeed said:


> Hello guys, I bought one today, could you give us more data with your impressions and *subwoofer box*, please? avanti1960 what sort of *equalization did you set up*? I want to try the same box you did *in my golf GTI*, gonna make a false floor to put the new box.
> *Do you think the orientation of the subwoofer would help spatializing?* *Firing rearward or firing upward, or it doesn't matter*?


All of this is exclusive to your car's unique cabin environment. Nothing is going to help you narrow down what works in your car other than what works in your car.


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## avanti1960

Horuspeed said:


> Hello guys, I bought one today, could you give us more data with your impressions and subwoofer box, please? avanti1960 what sort of equalization did you set up? I want to try the same box you did in my golf GTI, gonna make a false floor to put the new box.
> Do you think the orientation of the subwoofer would help spatializing? Firing rearward or firing upward, or it doesn't matter?


hi horuspeed, location of a sub can make a noticeable difference to the sound you hear in the driver's seat. i have had "portable" subs that i would move around and try to find the place that sounds the best. generally for my car the right rear corner was the best place, sub woofer facing away from the nearest wall or upward / downward (if there were feet on the enclosure). 
for me it all came down to practicality- i wanted to get the sub out of the main cargo area and under the floor that covers the sub cargo area. 
fortunately the sub cargo area in my vehicle gave me just enough room build a nice solid enclosure and of the appropriate volume for a sealed 12" sub. 
my enclosure was 1.4 cuft net volume including some allowance for a lb. bat of polyfill. Dimensions 29 x 14 x 8.375 inches, sub firing upwards and located on the end of the enclosure for rigidity. the sound is fine despite not being in the best location in the vehicle. 
you may have limited options trying to fit and position a sub enclosure in your vehicle and difficulty trying to find the best location until after you build it. focus on the enclosure design- make it rigid with lots of internal bracing. mine is as solid as a concrete block and i believe it made a positive difference how the sub sounds. 
the only EQ I have is some reduction around 50 hz to smooth out a peak in the response. good luck!


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## NonSenCe

any idea of SPL numbers this can make?


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## ZAKOH

NonSenCe said:


> any idea of SPL numbers this can make?


One realistic way to look at this, is the overall volume that can be displaced (cone area times the stroke). The linear stroke is 12.5mm one way and the cone area is typical of a 12 inch subwoofer. Considering 12.5mm is pretty average, I guess the SPL is comparable to what's produced by an average 12 inch sub in a sealed box (e.g JL W3), but Scanspeak may fill the lowest bass better. The overall stroke distance is something like 1 inch each way, which can be considered pretty good, but beyond the xmax distance distortion will be rising. Realistically, for a bit more SPL, you may want to check out the Image Dynamics IDQv3. It's a good SQ subwoofer, which has 19mm of xmax, and costs about the same as Scanspeak or cheaper. My understanding though, the IDQ's distortion will rise rapidly beyond its xmax as its overall stroke is still something like 1 inch each way. So in the end, their SPL may be equal at the limit.


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## avanti1960

NonSenCe said:


> any idea of SPL numbers this can make?


probably not exactly what you are looking for but the attached pic was the sub measured yesterday- no EQ, crossed at 20Hz 36db and 100Hz 24db. 

500 watts of clean power, approximate 2/3 volume. 

this was some loud bass and it was shaking the whole car- i thought i was in a space capsule re-entering the earth's atmosphere!


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## Hanatsu

NonSenCe said:


> any idea of SPL numbers this can make?


If you know the transfer function of your car it can be simulated somewhat accurate, assuming placement remains the same. Output is calculated from Xmax*Sd, this gives to the volume displacement. 

Gonna post some tests I've done later.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy 3 via Tapatalk.


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## james2266

avanti1960 said:


> probably not exactly what you are looking for but the attached pic was the sub measured yesterday- no EQ, crossed at 20Hz 36db and 100Hz 24db.
> 
> 500 watts of clean power, approximate 2/3 volume.
> 
> this was some loud bass and it was shaking the whole car- i thought i was in a space capsule re-entering the earth's atmosphere!


Wow, you do seem to have quite a larger peak than I do at about 40 Hz. I have a peak there but not 10db! I would say we do have some cabin gain going on there. Also, why did you put the 20 Hz cross on when looking at the response? I would think that could be why it looks like the response is tailing off. I know I noticed a difference when I had a subsonic on my Ultimo. I figured I have never heard it bottom before and it is in a sealed box so I killed the subsonic completely and am way happier for it. Just my 2c


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## Hanatsu

"Subsonic" filters are not very useful in sealed enclosures.


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## james2266

Hanatsu said:


> "Subsonic" filters are not very useful in sealed enclosures.


My thoughts exactly and that is after experimentation.


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## Hanatsu

All right. First set of tests. My simulation of the box size and port length was off. My intended tuning frequency was between 30-31Hz, it ended up at 25-26Hz instead. Don't know why this happened really, but anyway - I'm sharing my tests before I modify the enclosure size.

These test was measured at 1m with a calibrated ECM8000 mic. Input voltage was 18-18.5V (avg). Above 35Hz, excursion was pretty high, I'd say around Xmax rating. I also provide measurements on tuning frequency, how it changes by adding dampening wool. Measurements done outside the car in a large room. Applications: RoomEQ 5 and DATS. 

Notice the increased amount of distortion that coincides with box resonance /40Hz.

HD tests:

20Hz:









25Hz:









30Hz:









40Hz:









50Hz:









60Hz:


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## Hanatsu

Impedance sweeps, tuning frequency is slightly affected by adding wool. Efficiency is not affected very much.

Without wool (Fb ~28Hz):










50% added wool (27Hz):










100% added wool (27Hz):


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## james2266

Hanatsu said:


> Impedance sweeps, tuning frequency is slightly affected by adding wool. Efficiency is not affected very much.
> 
> Without wool (Fb ~28Hz):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 50% added wool (27Hz):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 100% added wool (27Hz):


PM sent for info on how DATS works.


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## avanti1960

james2266 said:


> Wow, you do seem to have quite a larger peak than I do at about 40 Hz. I have a peak there but not 10db! I would say we do have some cabin gain going on there. Also, why did you put the 20 Hz cross on when looking at the response? I would think that could be why it looks like the response is tailing off. I know I noticed a difference when I had a subsonic on my Ultimo. I figured I have never heard it bottom before and it is in a sealed box so I killed the subsonic completely and am way happier for it. Just my 2c


the 50Hz peak is either cabin effect or a glitch in the RTA software / mic calibration or sound calibration. It shows up even when i am measuring the midrange / tweeters. 

even though the enclosure is sealed i have been running with the subsonic on through the headunit as an HPF. It helped to tighten the sound of my JL sub and was noticeable. I also read where it conserves amp power by not using energy generated inaudible pulses- helping to divert the power to audible frequencies. 

however after reading this i turned it off and it does seem to play a little deeper- I will have to measure on the RTA now to see if there is a difference, thanks.


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## avanti1960

Hanatsu said:


> "Subsonic" filters are not very useful in sealed enclosures.


OK, thanks for the suggestion- although the filter helped with my sealed JL sub. 

But having run the ScanSpeak sub with no sub or high pass filter all I can say is WOW! It took the lid off this speaker! 
The bass notes are deeper and they sustain- / linger and taper off- in a very good way. 
Impact is noticeably better- especially on kick drums- which sound as life like as any system I have heard. 
It literally sounds like a new (and much better) sub- and still blends incredibly well. Unbelievable. 
I will definitely RTA it this week-end and post a comparison - filter / no filter.


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## Hanatsu

"Subsonic" (weird naming that is, hence the " ") filters are basically simple highpass filters, sometimes tall order filters. The only thing they do is basically lowering amplitude on the frequencies below the set point. Depending on type of filter, rolloff might begin slightly above this frequency. As with any filter it affects phase and as a result transient response, note that this effect is practically inaudible in this case. These subsonic filters are normally used with vented enclosures and are placed like 10Hz below (Fb) to prevent unloading, since a sealed enclosure controls excursion infinitely low it's not needed. If you tune a vented enclosure in 20's or low 30's they are not needed either imo.

Here's a good read about filters:

Active Filters


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## Hanatsu

And btw, this sub has both great output and efficiency. Compared to my DLS Iridium 12i in a relatively small sealed enclosure I had to decrease overall levels by 10-15dB. They did not lie about the 25mm p-p excursion, almost no motor noise either.


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## tru tech99

wow nice write upd.... i have the peerless xxls 12 in a 1.6 cubic seal... and i stuff the box of with a whole pillow case of polly....


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## tru tech99

Avanti 1960 - what size is your box? and do you have any polly stuff inside the box?


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## avanti1960

tru tech99 said:


> Avanti 1960 - what size is your box? and do you have any polly stuff inside the box?


tru-

My box is exactly 1.2 cu ft net including bracing and driver displacement. 
I lined the walls with these excellent polyfill pads- approximately (1) lb. or so. 

Amazon.com: Poly-Fil Nu-Foam Pre-Cut-14 Inch X14 Inch X2 Inch: Home & Kitchen


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## tru tech99

thanks you....


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## jsun_g

Nice write up, thanks for taking the time to post your findings. Did you try an RTA measurement with the subsonic filter defeated?

I'm considering a replacement sub that has the low end covered, and this in a sealed or the 10" version in a ported is a contender to replace my Boston G310 in a 1.25 cuft net ported.


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## claytonzmvox

Someone made ​​a serious comparison with the Velodyne DF12SC? Velodyne anyone ever used this power to make a brief comparison?


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## jcmorong

Any updates? or test in the ported enclusure? avanti hanatsu


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## CAudio

avanti1960 said:


> So I'm listening to my stereo and I play my favorite old school progressive rock track, you know, Genesis? So it comes to the part where the bass organ gets really low and deep so I crank it up a little and eh? Whats up with this, ahh? Where's the bass?! Ok so I'm not going to give my sub a "bad rap?" because it does smack pretty hard when the music calls for it, it just doesn't play low or so deep. Maybe it needs more than 500 watts, I don't know but all I know is my RTA plot shows I ain't got nuthin below 60 hz or thereabouts- I ain't even got any cabin gains. So I do all this research and read all these threads about the best "SQ" 12 inch subs and all, and you people really know what's doing I can say that much. Basically I built my "box" a little larger than JL specs for a sealed enclosure but the sub models with a rather high F3 (the frequency where the output is -3db and output begins to decline by 12db every octave below that frequency). So my current sub has an F3 of 47 Hz, which seems quite high for a sub roll-off frequency- if you want deep low end bass and your vehicle exhibits minimal measured cabin gain.
> So I hit the online catalogs and spec sheets looking for a 12" sub that can model with as low of an F3 as reasonably possible for the enclosure size I have and with a "Qtc" of .707 or as close as possible.
> So playing lower frequencies is definitely on the priority list.
> Then I starts readin about these subs that seem to "blend" and that you can't tell if its really playin, you know like transparent? Hmm, sounds a little strange but I read on... after all, my sub seems to be a bi-personality- it's either disappeared all the way or it's really there, too much "there". I would have to say this ain't your typical HQ SQ. Sos I add "blending in" and "SQ" to my list of upgrade priorities.
> I starts readin about these subs that are "musical" too. Most of them are from over by europe or so it seems. Not bad. I read about this Morel Ultimo. Minga thats an expensive sub. I aint payin that much even if it is made in Italy. Then I stumble on Peerless and Scanspeak subs. Hey, I had a scanspeak tweeter and they was high line. So I plug the thiele small parameters into the spreadsheet and voila, the ScanSpeak Discovery 12" subwoofer would give me an F3 of around 37 Hz with a Qtc of .72. Ayy, I been doin lots of looking and this aint too bad. So I go with it and see what happens.
> 
> As yous can see by the attached pics this new ScanSpeak sub seems smaller than my original JL. Marone, the surround is nearly twice as big! The magnet seems a little smaller as does the install height. The frame on the Scan is nice and sturdy being a casting vs. the JL stamped sheet-metal design. Missing from the Scan subwoofer flange is any sort of sealing material (The JL sub has a nice rubberized sealing surface on the flange). I'll have to make a foam sealing gasket. The terminals on the Scan are standard variety 1/4" male connecting terminal vs. the JL spring locked terminal so I'll have to crimp some female connectors to the sub box wiring. As I'm ready to button it all up I notice the mounting holes on the new sub line up exactly with the old ones, so I am thankful for that.
> 
> So there's the pic of the sub "in-situ" if you knows what I'm sayin which means I am ready to actually hear how it sounds.
> After a few errands drivin around and tuning it in it seemed very weak. Must be breakin in or something. Then I put on my old Genesis CD. Fast forward to the bass organ at the 7:00 mark of "Firth of Fifth" off the Selling England by the Pound CD (at this point you gen X, Y and Z'ers are going like WTF? right?) so ayyy, learn something ahhh? Anyway the bass organ came back to life! Not overpowering but deep and low nones the less. Then I put in a few other CDs with deep low bass and a sumthin a little familiar is goin on- oh yeah, it sounds a little like the JL sub when i had it in this big ported box the size of a small refrigerator. It was tuned to 30Hz. So the low notes are back! But the SQ so far ain't muddy or loose like the ported box sometimes sounded.
> 
> Goals of the Sub Upgrade-
> 1) Lower frequency output.
> 2) Better overall SQ.
> 3) More musical, less over the top.
> 
> So I'm gonna let this thing play for a few weeks and let the sub break in, tune it a little more, get some experiences with it. Then I'll do some RTA measurements and report back with some updated info and see if the upgrade goals were achieved. Off to a good start though, I can say that much.







Marone is right.
The Scan-Speak 12" drivers (aka 30W series) want to be in sealed enclosures with a volume no less than 1.3 Cubic Feet. I have a Scan Speak Silver 30W Automotive Subwoofer and spoke to Scan about recommended enclosure volumes. If you can go a little larger, do it. Driver displacement is ~.08 Cubic Feet. I line all enclosure walls with ~8mm acoustic felt and there is a sheet of MDM3 damping material in there also (synthetic polyester mixed with wool).
I will post pictures soon. If you build the enclosure correctly, without stuffing, the F3 according to most subwoofer enclosure software is ~38 Hz.


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