# Would it hurt to do this to my speakers?



## tseng2394 (Jun 12, 2011)

I am getting my car back tomorrow and I plan on hooking up a set of Alpine Type S components and a set of Type S coaxile speakers in my car. 

I currently have a:
Alpine CDE-121 Deck
2 RF P3 10" Subs
1 RF Punch 1000/1 

I was wondering if I could hook these speakers up while I wait a couple weeks to buy a seperate 4-chan amp for them. The comp and coax's are rated at 80 watts RMS. I'll be running roughly 35 watts per speaker from deckpower + the factory amp.* I'll probably be running them like this for 2 weeks at most*

So my question is,

*
Will it hurt the speakers?
How will they sound?
*


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## shexy (Jun 20, 2011)

You can run them off your HU at considerable levels.. Just don't put em at full blast. 

Underpowering=distortion=blown speakers.


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

shexy said:


> Underpowering=distortion=blown speakers.


no it doesn't. you cannot damage a speaker from underpowering it nor does that automatically cause distortion. what do you think is happening anytime you do not have your system turned to it's full potential?

OP, you will be fine running it like that until you can get a new amp.


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## tseng2394 (Jun 12, 2011)

shexy said:


> You can run them off your HU at considerable levels.. Just don't put em at full blast.
> 
> Underpowering=distortion=blown speakers.


Dummy!


nineball said:


> no it doesn't. you cannot damage a speaker from underpowering it nor does that automatically cause distortion. what do you think is happening anytime you do not have your system turned to it's full potential?
> 
> OP, you will be fine running it like that until you can get a new amp.


Thanks


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## Syaoran (Jun 27, 2011)

tseng2394 said:


> Dummy!
> 
> 
> Thanks



For a bit of self-knowledge, underpowering your speakers means that you'll get to listen to them but not to their full potential. When you amp them, you'll feel you got new speakers.


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## TrickyRicky (Apr 5, 2009)

Syaoran said:


> For a bit of self-knowledge, *underpowering your speakers means that you'll get to listen to them but not to their full potential.* When you amp them, you'll feel you got new speakers.


"Underpowering=distortion=blown speakers." WTF? Since when is that bad? I put 250watts on my Cerwin Stroker sub and they hit and sound louder than others with thousands and thousands of imaginary watts :laugh:.


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## seekingSQnirvana (Dec 21, 2008)

tseng2394 said:


> Dummy!


seems a bit harsh!


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

seen many a deck blow a speaker so don't think it can't be done. I would not do it because the cross-overs for the comps will suck up a good amount of power as well.


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

ttocs388 said:


> seen many a deck blow a speaker so don't think it can't be done. I would not do it because the cross-overs for the comps will suck up a good amount of power as well.


i'll say it again - you cannot blow a speaker from underpowering it. it's just impossible. period. do you blow your engine up if the gas pedal is not smashed to the floor 100% of the time?


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## seekingSQnirvana (Dec 21, 2008)

nineball said:


> i'll say it again - you cannot blow a speaker from underpowering it. it's just impossible. period. do you blow your engine up if the gas pedal is not smashed to the floor 100% of the time?


this may help Too Little Power Blowing Speakers


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## shnitz (Jun 13, 2011)

Blowing speakers is a MYTHHHH. First off, go to a store like Best Buy. They have components hooked up straight to head units, including the Polk Dxi6500 (a.k.a. the DB6501), Alpine Type S, Pioneer A-series, and Kicker KS. These are driven ALL day long, and abused by stupid kids, pounding stupid music at stupid volumes, without blowing. I was there last weekend to check out the clearance, and they still had a pair of Alpine 600C's on display clearance, still playing music and sounding as good as ever.

Second, that is a CROCK about the crossover. Alpine Type S are made to be comfortably driven off of head-unit power. Anyway, they don't even have a real crossover; just a capacitor glued onto the back of the midbass woofer. I'm running Kicker components, which do have a real crossover, and they sound just fine straight from a Kenwood head unit, so not even at the 35W that you're putting out. Plus, I've driven MM6501 for an extended period in another car straight from the head unit, and while it's not amazing, they run just fine, and they haven't blown.

If you've seen speakers blow from head units, it's either because they got old and brittle from age/environment, or because they were faulty and blown already. If you think underdriving speakers blows them, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the basics of electricity and how speakers work.

A nice test will be to run the Alpine Type S speakers as they sit. Give it a week or so of break-in time (just listen to music normally, let the rubber relax a little), and see how they sound. I think you'll like them just fine. I am going to do a test, and install an amplifier in my car in a few weeks, since I was able to get it cheap, to see if and how the sound improves. Speaking of, does anyone have any input about the Kicker IX404? I also picked up a Kicker ZX350.4 and a Kenwood KAC-8405 while I was on my spree, but I can't decide which one to put in (with the understanding that I can unload whichever other amps on Craigslist for what I paid). I'm leaning towards the IX404 right now, since the other two would probably be easier to resell.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

1st. I worked at best buy for almost 2 yrs and you would be amazed how many speakers are replaced there on almost a weekly monthly basis to keep the sound board running. Don't forget that they also will have you turn them down before you throw the amp into clipping for any length of time...

after 10 yrs installing and after seeing many a deck blow a speaker, what would you call it? Was it sun spots or solor radiation? I keep reading all these articles tellin me that there is just absolutely no way it can happen and yet I have seen it happen personally happen to my friends that didn't know better.

2nd. The minimum rated power that alpine recomends is 80 watts and we all know there is no way that ANY deck will ever get send that much power. If they were designed to be driven off of a deck the power rating would be lower... A capacitor IS a highpass cross-over and it DOES take power away from the speaker just like a simple coil cross over would and I bet you would be suprised how much power they drain.

Now I am not sayin that just hookin them up to a deck will blow them, it takes an idiot that doesn't understand how to keep the signal clean to do it as well as some time but it can happen.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

nineball said:


> i'll say it again - you cannot blow a speaker from underpowering it. it's just impossible. period. do you blow your engine up if the gas pedal is not smashed to the floor 100% of the time?


not the same thing. Take out the V8 motor in a large truck and then slap a 4 cylinder in it, and THEN run it at 100% wide open all of the time and I promise that little four banger will give out before the V8 would that it was designed to run with. When the engineers design these speakers do you think they have a dartboard that goes up to 80 and just toss a dart at it to figure out the power ratings?


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

believe what you want but science doesn't lie. if what you are saying is true then every speaker in the world should be blown up by now as they are not all being fed power equal to their rated specs at every moment in time. you better never turn your stereo on again, it's amazing you still have working speakers!



ttocs388 said:


> 2nd. The minimum rated power that alpine recomends is 80 watts and we all know there is no way that ANY deck will ever get send that much power. If they were designed to be driven off of a deck the power rating would be lower...



if you actually read the manual you would see the power range was rated from 2-80 watts rms.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

I am going to clarify this one more time and I am done. Hooking them up to the deck does not automatically equal a blown speaker. It takes some time at high volume to do it but it can be done, seen it myself many many times. Because you have not does not mean it will not happen or that I just happen to have a bunch of customers that just happen to have the bass boost, bass settings all maxed out while listening to rap/techno just happen to buy bad
speakers.

So if you do it, you need to be carefull about it.

2 watts I will need to see that in writting to believe it or I will raise the BS flag. Never seen a company rate speakers, componants let alont with only 2 watts..........


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

What you described is not underpowering, it is sending a clipped signal to the speaker. They are two completely different things. 

Read the specs on crutchfield for the 600c.


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

seekingSQnirvana said:


> this may help Too Little Power Blowing Speakers


For everyone who states that "blowing speakers is a myth", I suggest you read and re-read the above link. Like ttocs388 said, its about having a clean unclipped signal. Too many times people crank on the volume knob to get more output but don't realize that they have gone past the capability of the head unit's internal amp. Once you past that point, you are clipping. Over a period of time this will burn up the voice coil...blown speaker. Sure you can run those with less power, but be aware of where and when it starts to clip the signal. If you want to know what a clipped signal does, take an old speaker and hook it up to a car battery...make sure you have a fire extinguisher close by.


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

tseng2394 said:


> I'll be running roughly 35 watts per speaker from deckpower + the factory amp.* I'll probably be running them like this for 2 weeks at most*
> 
> So my question is,
> 
> ...


Can you clarify what you mean by this? I'm not quite following how you planned to do this? Are you planning to run the deck's RCA's to the factory amp or the high level (speaker outputs) to the factory amp?


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## Schizm (Jun 12, 2011)

narvarr said:


> For everyone who states that "blowing speakers is a myth", I suggest you read and re-read the above link. Like ttocs388 said, its about having a clean unclipped signal..


Ttocs just needs to clarify that he means clipping and then it would turn out that he and nineball are saying the same thing. I read that link and it word for word supports what nineball has been saying clearly the entire time.


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

Even in extreme cases of clipping, if a driver has a thermal capability (80w in this case) that's a lot higher than an IC can produce (no deck really can produce 35w a channel, try 15w) - no way will the speaker smoke. 

Can the speaker blow up? Sure, there's lot's of ways to wok that dog. But melting the voice coil isn't one of them. That is usually what goes wrong with a speaker that's designed right and installed properly yet is overpowered. I wouldn't call anything on the wall at a Best Buy designed properly...same goes with Chinese made Alpine entry level speakers. 

Anyone here own a guitar amp or often attend concerts? If so, how often do you see blown up speakers? Lots of people clip their guitar rigs to insane levels yet nothing in the cabinet blows up. Why do you think that is? Could it be that distortion doesn't kill speakers yet overpowering them does? I think so...


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

you can post what ever link you want but to me it really isn't imoportant. I trust what I have seen/done/experienced 10x more then any article on the net but unfortunatly alot of newbs read something and take it as gospel. 

I am not 18 and just figured out what the blue wires do I have been doing this as a hobby for almost 20 yrs now and made a living at it for 10+yrs. Started off at a crap-hole and worked my way into bigger/better shops that knew what they were doing where I learned alot. AFter that I decided I had enough with the fulltime installation and got a degree in electronics where I graduated at the top 3% of my class. between the two I consider myself by no means perfect but a good source of info FROM EXPERIENCE not from an internet article...

you guys make it sound like an underpowered speaker can't be pushed into clipping for some stupid reason? Low powered amps will clip sooner then a good high powered one will. It doesn't take much DC voltage over a period of time to build enough heat to do damage to a speaker and clipping is nothing more then DC voltage. Do you have any idea how much DC voltage can be sent to your speaker while clipping?

As for the musician question ya know I don't know as I never got into pa equipment. Are you sure you are not confusing distortion with clipping? clipping any speaker is bad and to assume that when they go on tour like they do that they do not damage any equipment is just as dumb as assuming that best buy has 3yr old speakers in thier boards still playing off of deck power perfectly and have never been replaced.

if clipping is not a bad thing then how come good audio manf will include a lamp to burn off the dc voltage created during clipping that might harm a speaker and call it protection? Who wrote that article? just curious what his/her exp is.


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## seekingSQnirvana (Dec 21, 2008)

Bluliner said:


> Anyone here own a guitar amp or often attend concerts? If so, how often do you see blown up speakers? Lots of people clip their guitar rigs to insane levels yet nothing in the cabinet blows up. Why do you think that is? Could it be that distortion doesn't kill speakers yet overpowering them does? I think so...


Are clipping and distortion synonymous?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Clipping is a form of distortion but distortion is not necessarily clipping.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

correct... if its clipping, then that is distortion. If you are just adding distortion as so many guitarists do that does not mean it is clipping.


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

the plain, simple truth is that underpowering a speaker cannot damage it. asking an amp/headunit/eq/anything else in the chain to produce more power than it is safely capable of can send a distorted signal to the speaker and damage it. this is not underpowering a speaker but rather not buying the proper equipment to reach the end you want and asking too much from said equipment. simply sending less than the rated power to a speaker via a clean signal will do no harm whatsoever to the speaker. if it did then every system in the world would be blown as soon as it was turned on.

it doesn't matter if you have 2 months of 200 years of "experience", you can't change the laws of physics. 

alpine sps-600c specs:

Specifications
Sensitivity	88 dB
Frequency Response	70 - 22k Hz
*RMS Power Range (Watts)	2-80*
Peak Power Handling (Watts)	240
Impedance (Ohms)	4
Top-mount Depth (Inches)	2 1/4
Bottom-mount Depth (Inches)	N/A
Cutout Diameter or Length (inches)	5 1/2


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> you can post what ever link you want but to me it really isn't imoportant. I trust what I have seen/done/experienced 10x more then any article on the net but unfortunatly alot of newbs read something and take it as gospel.
> 
> I am not 18 and just figured out what the blue wires do I have been doing this as a hobby for almost 20 yrs now and made a living at it for 10+yrs. Started off at a crap-hole and worked my way into bigger/better shops that knew what they were doing where I learned alot. AFter that I decided I had enough with the fulltime installation and got a degree in electronics where I graduated at the top 3% of my class. between the two I consider myself by no means perfect but a good source of info FROM EXPERIENCE not from an internet article...
> 
> ...


First off, a degree in electronics? What does that even mean. My information has come from my own experience, and my dads, someone with a Masters in physics, minored in mathematics, and is an electrical engineer that designs power supplies for eveything from ac control units to the tomahawk cruise missle.

Lets assume that your playing a 0db sine wave, which is as loud as a recording can be. And lets assume that the head unit actually puts out 35 watts, rms, at half volume. A sine wave playing on that head unit, at half volume, would send the speakers an AVERAGE of 17.5 watts. Now, lets assume that the head unit reaches a completely square wave at full volume. (which i doubt any do) Now your sending an AVERAGE of 35 watts to the speaker. But wait, whats that? The speaker is rated for 80 watts. Now assuming its not WAYYY overrated, and it can actually take that much power rms, there is no possible way that sending a clipped signal from that headunit with 35 watts AVERAGE will blow the speakers, unless the speakers are faulty. PERIOD. Now, if you throw music into the mix, the average power goes down even lower because music has dynamics.

I wasnt going to post, but I was fed this lie for years before learning the truth. And spreading false information does nothing but damage this hobby. Please explain to use, with your degree in electronics how sending a speaker 35 watts, thats rated for 80 watts will damage the speaker. Just because you hear distortion, doesnt mean damage is going on. In fact, all speakers have a level off distortion, even at rated power.

Hears some reading for you, from someone thats smarter than I.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1358874-post4.html


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

So let me get this correct.... the speakers on my shelf might be blown? I've been under-powering them for quite some time now. In fact they have seen 0 watts for some time now.

if you think 15watts of clean un-clipped power is going to blow a speaker that is rated for 100watts I've got a bunch of swamp land for ya.


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> First off, a degree in electronics? What does that even mean. My information has come from my own experience, and my dads, someone with a Masters in physics, minored in mathematics, and is an electrical engineer that designs power supplies for eveything from ac control units to the tomahawk cruise missle.
> 
> Lets assume that your playing a 0db sine wave, which is as loud as a recording can be. And lets assume that the head unit actually puts out 35 watts, rms, at half volume. A sine wave playing on that head unit, at half volume, would send the speakers an AVERAGE of 17.5 watts. Now, lets assume that the head unit reaches a completely square wave at full volume. (which i doubt any do) Now your sending an AVERAGE of 35 watts to the speaker. But wait, whats that? The speaker is rated for 80 watts. Now assuming its not WAYYY overrated, and it can actually take that much power rms, there is no possible way that sending a clipped signal from that headunit with 35 watts AVERAGE will blow the speakers, unless the speakers are faulty. PERIOD. Now, if you throw music into the mix, the average power goes down even lower because music has dynamics.
> 
> ...




Lets put a little more light on this. Distortion can come from a clipped signal or the mechanical limits of a speaker being reached (suspension bottoming out) due to overpowering. Manufacturers rate their speakers in one of two ways: mechanical limit or thermal limit. Sending a clipped signal to a speaker can cause it operate in a non linear fashion causing the voice coil to short out against the pole piece. That's one way it can happen. Say for instance, the suspension is capable of keeping the voice coil moving in a linear fashion, but now your voice coil is heating up from the high amount of DC current going through it. It's only a matter of time before it burns out. JL Audio's W7 is a prime example of that. the suspension is robust enough to keep it linear, but it is still thermally limited.


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

clipping isn't DC tho.....it's squared of ac... no?


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ur-amplifier-send-dc-voltage-your-subs-2.html

good read!


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

turbo5upra said:


> clipping isn't DC tho.....it's squared of ac... no?


That's correct. 

DC current would cause the cone to either be pushed out or sucked into the basket and remain there with the VC acting like a resistor. 

Even with square waves, they're still waves and switch from + to - causing the sub to move up & down. May not sound great but the current is still alternating.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> First off, a degree in electronics? What does that even mean. My information has come from my own experience, and my dads, someone with a Masters in physics, minored in mathematics, and is an electrical engineer that designs power supplies for eveything from ac control units to the tomahawk cruise missle.
> 
> Lets assume that your playing a 0db sine wave, which is as loud as a recording can be. And lets assume that the head unit actually puts out 35 watts, rms, at half volume. A sine wave playing on that head unit, at half volume, would send the speakers an AVERAGE of 17.5 watts. Now, lets assume that the head unit reaches a completely square wave at full volume. (which i doubt any do) Now your sending an AVERAGE of 35 watts to the speaker. But wait, whats that? The speaker is rated for 80 watts. Now assuming its not WAYYY overrated, and it can actually take that much power rms, there is no possible way that sending a clipped signal from that headunit with 35 watts AVERAGE will blow the speakers, unless the speakers are faulty. PERIOD. Now, if you throw music into the mix, the average power goes down even lower because music has dynamics.
> 
> ...


a degree in electronics means that I studied electronics circuits and passed all the required corses to get the degree. My dad is a radiation phycasist but you are not going to find me tellin you or anyone else about how to calibrate the billion dollar machines he does. so I am not all that sure how an engineer who according to your description has done little in audio will be able to speak as well as someone that has spent time knee deep in it. The worst insallations I ever got to fix were from engineers and electritions. Not all electrons are the same. 

glad you have some experience but you really didn't tell what it is other then cutting and pasting links.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

turbo5upra said:


> So let me get this correct.... the speakers on my shelf might be blown? I've been under-powering them for quite some time now. In fact they have seen 0 watts for some time now.
> 
> if you think 15watts of clean un-clipped power is going to blow a speaker that is rated for 100watts I've got a bunch of swamp land for ya.


you have obviously not been reading what I am typin. MAybe put your ear really close to the screen and it will be easier for you to understand. I will talk slowly and use alot of hand signals to help you through it.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> a degree in electronics means that I studied electronics circuits and passed all the required corses to get the degree. My dad is a radiation phycasist but you are not going to find me tellin you or anyone else about how to calibrate the billion dollar machines he does. so I am not all that sure how an engineer who according to your description has done little in audio will be able to speak as well as someone that has spent time knee deep in it. The worst insallations I ever got to fix were from engineers and electritions. Not all electrons are the same.
> 
> glad you have some experience but you really didn't tell what it is other then cutting and pasting links.


Its "physicist" and ALL electrons are the same!!! 

Would your degree happento be a technical degree?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

DUDE! My dad owns a dealership! He like totally owns a dealership!


My daddy is a fireman!


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Bluliner said:


> That's correct.
> 
> DC current would cause the cone to either be pushed out or sucked into the basket and remain there with the VC acting like a resistor.
> 
> Even with square waves, they're still waves and switch from + to - causing the sub to move up & down. May not sound great but the current is still alternating.


exactly and when this happens not only does the VC generate heat like any resistor does but it also take away the speakers ability to cool itself by moving fresh air over it. Do this long enough and heat will continue to develope and get hotter and hotter until it reaches the speakers limit. 

Again anyone that doesn't believe me is welcome to prove me wrong by going and blasting their system for an extended period of time while in clipping. Whats to be afraid of since it has been mathmatically proven that it can't happen.

Quick question now in seriousness - what is the max/min rated DC voltage for a speaker? They can give us every other stat on it but not this one because it is just bad to expose speaker to dc, period.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> Its "physicist" and ALL electrons are the same!!!
> 
> Would your degree happento be a technical degree?


I was in school for 6 yrs so you be the judge. What is your education level?


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> exactly and when this happens not only does the VC generate heat like any resistor does but it also take away the speakers ability to cool itself by moving fresh air over it. Do this long enough and heat will continue to develope and get hotter and hotter until it reaches the speakers limit.


Have you ever touched Christmas tree lights? Not very hot are they as there's not a lot of current being passed through them. Do the same with the 100w bulb in your bathroom after it's been on for a bit...report back. 



ttocs388 said:


> Quick question now in seriousness - what is the max/min rated DC voltage for a speaker? They can give us every other stat on it but not this one because it is just bad to expose speaker to dc, period.


The only way a speaker is exposed to DC current is if it's wired to the battery or the amplifier is bad. Even if you clip the amp into a coma, it's still ALTERNATING current. The cone still moves back and forth right? Well, that's what alternating current does. 

If you cannot understand that AC is a wave, regardless of being a sine or square, you need to return your degree for a refund.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> I was in school for 6 yrs so you be the judge. What is your education level?


Well being in school for six years tells me nothing. Did you go to a university, tech school, trade school? 

I am a junior in college. Math and science concentrations.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> I was in school for 6 yrs so you be the judge. What is your education level?


You shouldn't type when your angry, makes you sound dumb. Pay attention to what your saying!


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

turbo5upra said:


> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ur-amplifier-send-dc-voltage-your-subs-2.html
> 
> good read!


I disagree as it starts off with a guy sayin that he put his orion into clipping and measured mV of voltage on it. Funny that when everyone uses their meter to calculate the ac output of the amp to set the gains(which is dumb) they calculate much higher ac voltage but that he can't get a full volt out of it while clipping. He either doesn't know how to put an amp into clipping or doesn't know how to use a meter.

Please if you are going to post links to net articles to bolster your argument be sure that there is at least an authors name and maybe what his experience is and SPECIFICALLY in audio. Random links from random people who claim to be engineers means nothing to me. Just last year on my mustang forum I had to correct an engineer that posted a DIY article about how to hook up a 12v flashlight battery inline on the power wire to help his amp get more power. I guess it didn't matter to him if the battery was rechargable or not or the current output of said battery of it but he talked a good game and had a degree. 

I get the idea that the mojority of the people in here are the same customers that would come into the shop to get help/advice but already knew everything and that we should hire them. I would love to know what the experience of the people responding is? not what your daddy does for a living or what other jobs that has done that have nothing to do with audio.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> You shouldn't type when your angry, makes you sound dumb. Pay attention to what your saying!


and you just should not type at all since you have no good points to put into the coversation. If you have something constructive to put in the pot then have at it but you seem like little more then a waste of bandwith and time. If you are a junior in college then what the heck are you doing here on a saterday night?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> and you just should not type at all since you have no good points to put into the coversation. If you have something constructive to put in the pot then have at it but you seem like little more then a waste of bandwith and time. If you are a junior in college then what the heck are you doing here on a saterday night?


It's summer and I have a full time job and a family.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Bluliner said:


> Have you ever touched Christmas tree lights? Not very hot are they as there's not a lot of current being passed through them. Do the same with the 100w bulb in your bathroom after it's been on for a bit...report back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Take a snapshot of the signal while it clips, what do you have? Keep turning it up and it keeps getting longer. yes it does alternate but do you have more DC then AC if the clipping lasts for a few milliseconds and the change takes 1/100 of it? Nope..... so to be techinically acurate thre will be a point when you will have more of a DC signal then an ac and at that point you can technically call it DC.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm bored. So I look for people acting silly and have a go at them.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> It's summer and I have a full time job and a family.


great so if you want to join the conversation/debate feel free to do so but if you just want to sit on the side and make random comments about nothing why don't ya take it somewhere else. The people that have nothing intelligent to say are the ones that sound dumb and you fit that to a T so far.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> Take a snapshot of the signal while it clips, what do you have? Keep turning it up and it keeps getting longer. yes it does alternate but do you have more DC then AC if the clipping lasts for a few milliseconds and the change takes 1/100 of it? Nope..... so to be techinically acurate thre will be a point when you will have more of a DC signal then an ac and at that point you can technically call it DC.


Nope! Cause the power is still alternating. It will never become a flat line! But that will damage a speaker.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> I'm bored. So I look for people acting silly and have a go at them.



ok I figures you were a 4 yr old in a 20 yr old body but thanks for clarifying the point to me and proving. I am sick and in the hospital and bored as well but not bored enough to talk to any 4 yr olds that do not have anything intelligent to say. When I was 20 on a saterday night on summer break I was able to find thing to do such as girls, hangin with friends or taking a roadtrip. Sorry to hear that you can't find anything good to entertain yourself with.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> great so if you want to join the conversation/debate feel free to do so but if you just want to sit on the side and make random comments about nothing why don't ya take it somewhere else. The people that have nothing intelligent to say are the ones that sound dumb and you fit that to a T so far.


But dude!!! My dad owns a dealership!


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm 29 and laying next to ma baby mama! Lol


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

ah 29 and a junior in college. on the 11 yr program then?


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> ok I figures you were a 4 yr old in a 20 yr old body but thanks for clarifying the point to me and proving. I am sick and in the hospital and bored as well but not bored enough to talk to any 4 yr olds that do not have anything intelligent to say. When I was 20 on a saterday night on summer break I was able to find thing to do such as girls, hangin with friends or taking a roadtrip. Sorry to hear that you can't find anything good to entertain yourself with.


What kind of hospital? If you're in a nut-house, which is possible, then I'll just unsubscribe now.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> ah 29 and a junior in college. on the 11 yr program then?


Nope I partied and battled substance abuse issues for about 10 years. I've only been in school about 3 years. Been clean about 5 years. 

Any other personal info you want?!


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Bluliner said:


> What kind of hospital? If you're in a nut-house, which is possible, then I'll just unsubscribe now.


lol I am tempted to say yes just to get rid of you and hope dopey would follow but no, I have some serious digestive issues.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> Nope I partied and battled substance abuse issues for about 10 years. I've only been in school about 3 years. Been clean about 5 years.
> 
> Any other personal info you want?!


what kind of drugs were you on for so long? this could clear alot up... brain cells do not regenerate after all...


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> lol I am tempted to say yes just to get rid of you and hope dopey would follow but no, I have some serious digestive issues.


Me too! I'm trying to digest your logic!


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

must be hard after the decade of drug abuse to understand a simple process like heat building up.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> what kind of drugs were you on for so long? this could clear alot up... brain cells do not regenerate after all...


Well I'm about to take calc 3, organic or environmental chemistry, and physics. I also maintain above a 3.0 GPA so I'm pretty sure I have enough brain cells for the both of us!


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

I understand that sever clipping damages speakers. I also understand that underpowering does not cause clipping.


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> lol I am tempted to say yes just to get rid of you and hope dopey would follow but no, I have some serious digestive issues.


I've seen the movie Rainman and can say with 100% certainty you're not supposed to eat the toothpicks along with your food. :laugh:


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

BTW? Werent you gonna give me the details if your degree?


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> Well I'm about to take calc 3, organic or environmental chemistry, and physics. I also maintain above a 3.0 GPA so I'm pretty sure I have enough brain cells for the both of us!


calc 3 was a blast! I had a hard prof though as he would not allow an calculators. His tests were 5 equations/proofs. You could skip one but the other four normally took 2 pages each to show all the work.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> I understand that sever clipping damages speakers. I also understand that underpowering does not cause clipping.


not sure why you are agreeing with me now but ok. Been drinking tonight or are you back off the wagon?


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Bluliner said:


> I've seen the movie Rainman and can say with 100% certainty you're not supposed to eat the toothpicks along with your food. :laugh:


you hear everyone laughing here? that is how funny it was. If you watched rainman and learned eating toothpicks is bad then I will guess this as during the decade of drug abuse?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

I'm not sure where I disagreed with you?! I just corrected some spelling a few posts back.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> BTW? Werent you gonna give me the details if your degree?


I started off at a Comunity college in EET and then transfered to a full university and switched to EE. I lost some credits in the transfer so it took longer then it needed. After I graduated and had a sweet job an intel waiting for me I did continue with a few more classes but just didn't have the energy since I already liked the job I had

So now how about the details of your drug abuse? am I arguing nothing with a former bored crackhead that can't sit still?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> you hear everyone laughing here? that is how funny it was. If you watched rainman and learned eating toothpicks is bad then I will guess this as during the decade of drug abuse?


I'm the one who did drugs. Bluliner referenced the movie. I thought it was funny.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

No crack! Lots of pills, pot, and shrooms, and tons if experimentation along the way? Ever huffed ether while tripping on shroom tea? It's a riot!


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> I'm not sure where I disagreed with you?! I just corrected some spelling a few posts back.


I am not even sure what you are talkin about anymore. Congrats on post-jackin this off into no mans land to satisfy your childish needs thinking that you are upsetting me I guess. Like I said I am sick and laid up so your mindless babble is just entertaining. You are still clean right?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

So you have a Bachelors in EE?


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> I'm the one who did drugs. Bluliner referenced the movie. I thought it was funny.


ah crap how could I mess that up. Go figure a former drug addict will laugh at it. 

When did rainman eat the tooth picks? I must have missed it as that is the only humor I see in the joke.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Yup! Lean mean clean machine! I had an advantage in life so I chose to play with a handicap. 

This thread was dead when it started!


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## b&camp (Jan 27, 2011)

This thread fails to deliver. Anything. 

A clipped AC wave is not DC, and a square wave has more power under the curve than a sine wave.

To the OP, your speakers will be fine.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

hey seriously sonny if you just want to trade jabs in a battle of wits I am your huckleberry but take to pm or something so that we can get this post back on track. If you do want to play the way you said you do, I am not afraid as I can show you a few tips in that area as well.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

b&camp said:


> This thread fails to deliver. Anything.
> 
> A clipped AC wave is not DC, and a square wave has more power under the curve than a sine wave.
> 
> To the OP, your speakers will be fine.


But ttocs is striving and driving and hugging the turns...

The race is finished and the crowd gets up, and long ago somebody left with the cup. The arena is empty except for one man! He's striving and driving just as fast as he can! He's going the distance, he's going for speed!


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> hey seriously sonny if you just want to trade jabs in a battle of wits I am your huckleberry but take to pm or something so that we can get this post back on track. If you do want to play the way you said you do, I am not afraid as I can show you a few tips in that area as well.


Tombstone!!! Nice movie quote!


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

Fricasseekid said:


> Nope! Cause the power is still alternating. It will never become a flat line! But that will damage a speaker.


You are right about the current still alternating, but at the top and bottom of the wave form you have DC current because it stays at full amplitude for an extended period of time before going negative and staying there for an extended length of time at full amplitude. This would be the same as switching the battery leads around. It still has straight line current.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

narvarr said:


> You are right about the current still alternating, but at the top and bottom of the wave form you have DC current because it stays at full amplitude for an extended period of time before going negative and staying there for an extended length of time at full amplitude. This would be the same as switching the battery leads around. It still has straight line current.
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


But the speaker would still be moving enough so as to not build up too much heat. Except for extreme circumstances. 

My understanding though is that smaller drivers are much more susceptible to small amounts of clipping? Such a tweet vs. a woofer?
Is that because of a lack of means to dissipate heat generated?


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

thankyou narvarr. There will be a point when there will be more DC then ac and at that point, its DC. 

A speaker is designed to cool itself by constantly moving. When it clips the movement is alot less and just not what it is designed to do. It would be about the same as putting a radiator half the size of your stock on in your car. If you run it carefully, not too hard I bet the car will run for a while and you might not even notice a difference but keep doing it, increase the load on the motor and how hard its running and what will happen?

Frisceekid - you are really laying in bed with your girl debating nothing with me? What psi do you inflate her too as if that is your idea of a date and a good time, she can't be breathing. You must really miss your drugs huh?>


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> thankyou. There will be a point when there will be more DC then ac and at that point, its DC.
> 
> Frisceekid - you are really laying in bed with your girl debating nothing with me? What psi do you inflate her too as if that is your idea of a date and a good time, she can't be breathing. You must really miss your drugs huh?>


She's sleeping fool! If you ever had a girlfriend for any length if time then you'd know it's not an every day screw fest all the time! Nevermind the 6 month old baby down the hall.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> thankyou. There will be a point when there will be more DC then ac and at that point, its DC.
> 
> Frisceekid - you are really laying in bed with your girl debating nothing with me? What psi do you inflate her too as if that is your idea of a date and a good time, she can't be breathing. You must really miss your drugs huh?>


No matter what! It's not DC if the current is still alternating. I get what your saying, and the effect is the same, but you can't call it DC current!


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

DC current CANNOT make frequencies. Your still maintaining a frequency. it's the amplitude that's getting chopped off!


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

Fricasseekid said:


> But the speaker would still be moving enough so as to not build up too much heat. Except for extreme circumstances.
> 
> My understanding though is that smaller drivers are much more susceptible to small amounts of clipping? Such a tweet vs. a woofer?
> Is that because of a lack of means to dissipate heat generated?


Smaller drivers are more likely to fail sooner because of voice coil size. Thermal limits are reached sooner due to the smaller size of the voice coil.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> She's sleeping fool! If you ever had a girlfriend for any length if time then you'd know it's not an every day screw fest all the time! Nevermind the 6 month old baby down the hall.


hey now no need to call names. Just because you are a recovering drug addict that was not smart enough to pull out in time to make a "baby mamma" and types a little more then he reads doesn't make me the fool. :laugh:


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> hey now no need to call names. Just because you are a recovering drug addict that was not smart enough to pull out in time to make a "baby mamma" and types a little more then he reads doesn't make me the fool. :laugh:


My son is the best thing that ever happened to me! And the fact that I am accomplishing so much with my life after battling drug use for 10 years, I think speaks volumes about my potential.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> DC current CANNOT make frequencies. Your still maintaining a frequency. it's the amplitude that's getting chopped off!



how does your butt type so fast as that came straight out of it. It is common for dC current to have ripples in it in your car while your battery voltage fluctuates. Technically if you wanted to break it down at that point you can call a fluctuating or rippled DC to have an ac componant but again techincally since there is a longer dc form then the time alternating = DC

its the amplitude getting cut off


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> how does your butt type so fast as that came straight out of it. It is common for dC current to have ripples in it in your car while your battery voltage fluctuates. Technically if you wanted to break it down at that point you can call a fluctuating or rippled DC to have an ac componant but again techincally since there is a longer dc form then the time alternating = DC
> 
> its the amplitude getting cut off


Okay let me rephrase: audible frequencies, as in a usable signal.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

you are calling a clipped wave a usable signal?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> you are calling a clipped wave a usable signal?


Yes and no. It's usable but not desirable. However it will still produce an audible frequency will it not? DC current won't!


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

You are good at trying to twist my words but still no dice. I never said it was not audible and the only usefullness for a clipped signal is to blow your speakers. A larger amp pushed into clipping will toast the speaker faster but a small amp given the time will have the same effect. Actually the only part of a clipped signal would be the moments when it does actually move. The time that it is clipped I would not call audible but it is so short all you hear is the speaker bouncing back and forth to its limit. If that is what you call audible I would hate to see what you consider good SQ.

what would you consider a clipped signal usefull for other then lighting up the little light that burns off the dc voltage, proving that there is a dc element in a clipped ac sign wave?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

It is you misconstrueing my words. By useable signal I didn't mean a practical signal. I meant a signal that could be heard through speakers period.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

I think you are twisting your own words as you go just to keep this tantrum of yours going since yer girl is deflated and you compressor is was borrowed by the neighbor. After the decade of drug use I can only imagine how hard it is to remember what you just said, and what it meant.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> I think you are twisting your own words as you go just to keep this tantrum of yours going since yer girl is deflated and you compressor is was borrowed by the neighbor. After the decade of drug use I can only imagine how hard it is to remember what you just said, and what it meant.


Your boring me and this conversation is as flat as this thread has been for the last (how many pages is it now?)

Good night! Thanks for helping me with get back to sleep!


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

yea this thread has been as flat as a clipped signal since about 4 secs after you entered it. And thankyou for the entertainment as well, there isn't crap on tv right now and I have a hard time sleeping in hospitals.


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

wow... just wow. I think we all agree clipping the poop out of something will cause a coil to melt down. The question was will under powering my speakers hurt my speakers and the answer is 100% no.

If you under power a speaker with clean power or very lightly clipped power your good. hell I send 3x the rated power to my drivers and they still hold together. (it's more about x-over and clean power than anything else.)

In my link I didn't say everything is correct. I shouldn't have to list everyone's job and background in a thread. I know what each one does if it matters to you you could take the time to search and see who they are.

Bottom line is. over driving a under powered amp will melt a coil quick. under driving a speaker with clean unclipped power wont do poop to it.

I'm done measuring my penis. And yep my dad can kick your dads ass


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## Schizm (Jun 12, 2011)

Fricasseekid said:


> I'm the one who did drugs. Bluliner referenced the movie. I thought it was funny.


Bluliner's line made me laugh too!


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## b&camp (Jan 27, 2011)

ttocs, go back to school. DC current with ripple isn't AC because it doesn't cross the 0v line.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

A 20hz square wave is still moving the cone 20 TIMES PER SECOND. A 1000hz sqaure wave is still moving the cone 1000 TIMES PER SECOND. Being that with a 35 watt square wave the average power is 35 watts, and the speaker is rated for 80 watts rms, (which means 40 watts average with a sine wave), the speaker will be fine. It will sound like ****, but be fine. And being that this guy is probably not going to just play sine waves all day long, the average power will be even lower with music. Give it up, you have yet to prove your point. Square wave ac is NEVER dc because it still alternates.

Now answer this, have you ever scoped a head unit? 

I have scoped every head unit I've ever had. Guess what, even a cheap pos sony explod doesnt get anywhere near a square wave at full volume. It clips very hard, but not square.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

b&camp said:


> ttocs, go back to school. DC current with ripple isn't AC because it doesn't cross the 0v line.


ac voltage does not need to cross the 0v line. This is a quick equation that is basically done the same as ac. I did not call a rippled DC voltage ac, I said it has an ac componant to it. IT is possible to have both in one.

Ripple factor (γ) may be defined as the ratio of the root mean square (rms) value of the ripple voltage to the absolute value of the dc component of the output voltage, usually expressed as a percentage. However, ripple voltage is also commonly expressed as the peak-to-peak value. This is largely because peak-to-peak is both easier to measure on an oscilloscope and is simpler to calculate theoretically. Filter circuits intended for the reduction of ripple are usually called smoothing circuits.

The simplest scenario in ac to dc conversion is a rectifier without any smoothing circuitry at all. The ripple voltage is very large in this situation; the peak-to-peak ripple voltage is equal to the peak ac voltage


"equal to the peak ac voltage" so how can you say there is not an ac componant to it?

a 20 hz clipped wave does move, but again it is not the way it is designed to to cool itself and the entire time the speaker is clipped it is building heat and not cooling. If it was a smooth wave the heat build up would be much less(while not clipping), and cooling would be much better(two things that add up fast to keep the speaker cool and happy.)


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

here is the equations used to calculate the AC componant of the DC signal including the Frequency of it that you said DC voltage cannot have.

With the above assumptions the peak-to-peak ripple voltage can be calculated as:[2]

For a full-wave rectifier:

For a half-wave rectification:

where
Vpp is the peak-to-peak ripple voltage
I is the current in the circuit
f is the frequency of the ac power
C is the capacitance

For the rms value of the ripple voltage, the calculation is more involved as the shape of the ripple waveform has a bearing on the result. Assuming a sawtooth waveform is a similar assumption to the ones above and yields the result:


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

and here is a link to a well written article that proves my point so now what?

How Speakers Blow

Contrary to common opinion it is not safe to use a low powered amplifier. While it wont overload the speaker with power directly, it will itself be unable to reproduce certain sound levels without distortion, and this distortion can be just as damaging to the speakers.

Clipping occurs when an amplifier tries to reproduce higher amplitudes of sound than it is made to handle. It then “clips” the tops and bottoms of the sound waves, distorting them. Distortion in turn causes speakers to move in an abnormal fashion, potentially causing them to blow


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

ttocs388 said:


> and here is a link to a well written article that proves my point so now what?
> 
> How Speakers Blow
> 
> ...



great explanation of distortion but it has nothing to do with underpowering a speaker. you just explained what happens when you try to push an amp past it's limits. keep that same low powered amp setup properly and you will not blow a single speaker.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

take 2

Why do my speakers blow? | Soundslive

now again we can cut and paste all day to find some idiot that has written an article that will prove your point but the net isn't gospel. Again this is the first time I have looked up articles about to prove it just because I spent a good part of my career replacing speaker that were blown while only on deck power.

Again I am not sayin that a low powered amp will blow them. IT takes a person that doesn't know what it sounds like, keeps the volume up long enough to build the heat and then wonders why? But with that taken into mind that it seems most people on here trust there meter to tune their amps rather then their ears, what do you think will happen.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

nineball said:


> great explanation of distortion but it has nothing to do with underpowering a speaker. you just explained what happens when you try to push an amp past it's limits. keep that same low powered amp setup properly and you will not blow a single speaker.


not sure how you read that and only hear distortion, and also not sure why you are now agreeing with me.... I have been saying since the biginning if you keep the low powered amp out of clipping and keep the signal clean yo are fine? It is everyone that keeps responding to me saying that a low powered amp is completely 100% impossible to blow a speaker that are wrong as you can never say never or always in electronics. Shtuff happen is all I want the OP to know and that it can happen, any installer that has worked for any time has seen it.

if DC current was not able to get in and also not able to do damage as both of these have been stated how come companies like bose put control circuits in the speakers to keep them from seeing DC? While it might help the SQ by not playing the clip, it is not put in there to increase SQ but to protect their speakers.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm betting you replaced speakers that went past mechanical limits, because of stupid people boosting low frequencies all the way with no high pass. 

Again, I showed your "clipped ac being more dc" theory to two people with masters in electrical engineering now, and they both said you need to go back to school. At least I'll be dead honest. When I know someone else knows way more than me about something, I'll ask. And I definately will trust someone that has a masters and honorary doctorate (for maintaining a 4.0 throughout his masters program), has been doing it for almost 30 years, and designs parts that CANT fail. Imagine the consequences of a failed targeting computer due to a power supply that failed.


By the way, for a loong time when i was young, I would play my stock speakers in my truck well into clipping because i didnt know any better. They NEVER blew. I also for a while pushed some sony explod speakers into clipping with a sony explod deck, and they NEVER blew. You know what killed those speakers? One single time with an ex turning the bass all the way up with the volume turned way up where I used to listen. The first time she turned the bass up it did that. Before that, 2 years of listening with the bass flat and never had problems other than them sounding like ****. And in the truck were talking 2-3 years of constant clipping when i was listening.


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## b&camp (Jan 27, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> Ripple factor (γ) may be defined as the ratio of the root mean square (rms) value of the ripple voltage to the absolute value of the dc component of the output voltage, usually expressed as a percentage. However, ripple voltage is also commonly expressed as the peak-to-peak value. This is largely because peak-to-peak is both easier to measure on an oscilloscope and is simpler to calculate theoretically. Filter circuits intended for the reduction of ripple are usually called smoothing circuits.
> 
> The simplest scenario in ac to dc conversion is a rectifier without any smoothing circuitry at all. The ripple voltage is very large in this situation; the peak-to-peak ripple voltage is equal to the peak ac voltage





wikipedia said:


> Ripple factor (γ) may be defined as the ratio of the root mean square (rms) value of the ripple voltage to the absolute value of the dc component of the output voltage, usually expressed as a percentage. However, ripple voltage is also commonly expressed as the peak-to-peak value. This is largely because peak-to-peak is both easier to measure on an oscilloscope and is simpler to calculate theoretically. Filter circuits intended for the reduction of ripple are usually called smoothing circuits.
> 
> The simplest scenario in ac to dc conversion is a rectifier without any smoothing circuitry at all. The ripple voltage is very large in this situation; the peak-to-peak ripple voltage is equal to the peak ac voltage


nice copypasta


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

b&camp said:


> nice copypasta


Hey man, his DADDY invented wikipedia and he has a degree in electronics (and can probably produce the receipt from Costco to prove such).


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

what do you think drives the speaker past their mechanical limits? ah well its the clipping....... 

isn't cutnpaste the game everyone plays here? If you find a random article after a google search you must be right correct? I love how you guys twist my words, agree and disagree in the same posts. You say again it can't happen but them finish with the story of you ex blowing your speakers. Do you think the average person on here does not have the loudness(or d-bass for sony(distortion bass)) turned up past where it should be? if you have seen you girl blow your speakers on your deck, how can you tell me it CAN'T happen? 


the title of the post is "will this hurt my speakers" and my answer is yes that it COULD POSSIBLY do damage to them if you are not carefull. Now that I got nineball onboard(assuming since his last post agreed with me) and you tell a story that it happened, how can I still be wrong in my advice for the OP to procede with caution? I do not want to see him blow his speakers is all I am trying to save........

as for you eng buddies well maybe they were in a different program as I caculated the AC ripple voltage in a DC signal in school and even cut/pasted those equations above.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Bluliner said:


> Hey man, his DADDY invented wikipedia and he has a degree in electronics (and can probably produce the receipt from Costco to prove such).


ah no, but he is a couple steps ahead of a car dealership owner. Again if you do not have anything good to add to the debate and just want to take some shots at me how about you open up a new post or take it to pm and I would be happy to get in a battle of wits with ya..... Not really sure why as it seems like your takin a knife to a gun fight and it would be the same to me as following the short bus to make fun of them but I am bored/sick. making 4th grade comments inbetween just makes you look advanced, for a 3rd grader.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> what do you think drives the speaker past their mechanical limits? ah well its the clipping.......
> isn't cutnpaste the game everyone plays here? If you find a random article after a google search you must be right correct? I love how you guys twist my words, agree and disagree in the same posts. You say again it can't happen but them finish with the story of you ex blowing your speakers. Do you think the average person on here does not have the loudness(or d-bass for sony(distortion bass)) turned up past where it should be? if you have seen you girl blow your speakers on your deck, how can you tell me it CAN'T happen?
> 
> 
> ...


Really?? No, giving them too much power drives them past mechanical limits, aka xmax. Also giving them too much power below their ideal highpass crossover point. 

Yes, my ex killed my speakers. She didnt do it by clipping. She did it by driving them past xmax. Not by clipping, but by boosting the bass, you know, the part of the music which is generally closest to getting a speaker to xmax. So lets see, cheap, low xmax speakers, being driven past xmax, yes that would blow them. Driving them into clipping for the 2 years before that, without hitting xmax, no problems.



If what you say is true, then why do manufacturers only state that the warrenty is void if you overpower them and burn the voicecoil, but they dont warn about underpowering them or clipping?


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> Again if you do not have anything good to add to the debate and just want to take some shots at me how about you open up a new post or take it to pm and I would be happy to get in a battle of wits with ya.....


...says the guy who thinks AC magically transforms into DC if your volume knob is too high. 

Go exchange your "degree" for a couple bags of potato chips b/c that's all it seems to be worth. Oh, you can't eat those with toothpicks...tater tots then?


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Really?? No, giving them too much power drives them past mechanical limits, aka xmax. Also giving them too much power below their ideal highpass crossover point.
> 
> Yes, my ex killed my speakers. She didnt do it by clipping. She did it by driving them past xmax. Not by clipping, but by boosting the bass, you know, the part of the music which is generally closest to getting a speaker to xmax. So lets see, cheap, low xmax speakers, being driven past xmax, yes that would blow them. Driving them into clipping for the 2 years before that, without hitting xmax, no problems.
> 
> ...


I have come to the conclusion you just like to argue. Your ex drove your speakers pas the limits with the deck power, blew the speakers but you still tell me a deck can't blow a speaker. Your own story says you are wrong. The only way your story can be right that the bass boost drove them past their limits would be I guess to justify that it must have suddenly added hundreds of watts to the speaker? There is no way that a 35 watt deck with the bass boost up too high(loudness and D-bass too I bet) didn't go into clipping and that a slight turn of the bass knob suddenly made the deck powerfull enough to drive them past the x-max. 

any speaker you buy will have the recomended power rating on them. You can follow them if you want or not want too but I am still waitng to see the proof on the 2 watt recomendatin on alpine speakers mentioned earlier.

Again to the OP and the others following we have now had more then a few stories being told of a deck blowing a set of speakers(OMG!). Be it from pushing it past its X-max limits:laughwhich is done in clipping) or just clipping the hell out of it, IT 100% CAN HAPPEN PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD. Don't get it twisted it could be you.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Bluliner said:


> ...says the guy who thinks AC magically transforms into DC if your volume knob is too high.
> 
> Go exchange your "degree" for a couple bags of potato chips b/c that's all it seems to be worth. Oh, you can't eat those with toothpicks...tater tots then?


does your mamma get mad that you have no hobbies/friends, stay home all day and start flame wars or is she the type that would be proud of such an accomplishment? 

Seriously if ya wanna play little boy go ahead and start a post and we can have some fun. Be aware I don't fight fair and you will loose but you seem like a hell of a looser anyway. otherwise seriously just piss the heck off as this will be the last request I make and last responce to your childish jibberish on this post. little flamin tool is all you appear to be on this post.... flaming can probably be takin in a couple of different ways now too...


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

ttocs388 said:


> any speaker you buy will have the recomended power rating on them. You can follow them if you want or not want too but I am still waitng to see the proof on the 2 watt recomendatin on alpine speakers mentioned earlier.


I not only told you where the info I took a page out of your own book and copy/pasted it in this thread for you. Maybe if you paid more attention you would have seen that. That seems to explain why you have no grasp of the topic you supposedly studied for 10+ years.


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> does your mamma get mad that you have no hobbies/friends, stay home all day and start flame wars or is she the type that would be proud of such an accomplishment?
> 
> Seriously if ya wanna play little boy go ahead and start a post and we can have some fun. Be aware I don't fight fair and you will loose but you seem like a hell of a looser anyway. otherwise seriously just piss the heck off as this will be the last request I make and last responce to your childish jibberish on this post. little flamin tool is all you appear to be on this post.... flaming can probably be takin in a couple of different ways now too...


What's a "looser"?

Did you write your thesis on that? If the crayon scans well I'd like to see a copy of it.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

funny stuff mang! good for you you da man! I have already proven my point that a deck can blow speaker just by the stories told here by toostuborn(irony?) so I do not care what you say, what you link to, or how much it can't happen....

OP - don't believe the hype. You can do damage just be sure to keep the volume at a resonable level and keep it clean and you will be fine. Sorry it all got sidetracked by the drug addicts and loosers hope they do not confuse you.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

ah well I must have missed it but thanks for proving my point that a deck can blow a speaker with your story, I really appreciate it.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

I am hoping to have some well known industry experts that should be stopping by to clear this little thing up. I don't know that they have a masters or doctorate in audio/electronics or if what their dad does but if you can question these guys then you will question anyone but not need the answer...


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

can you show us a deck that will go to max volume with bass and bass boost and whatever else they might throw in them to get idiots to buy that will not clip @ full tilt?

Your missing the question at hand. can too little power blow a speaker and the magic responce to that would be no!

can a deck blow a speaker? sure.... might not happen over night but it can do it. The speaker is not blowing from too little power. It is blowing from either one of two things. The cheap headunit clipping. Or the cheap headunit driving that poor speaker past its mechanical limits.

25 watts of clean power with proper crossovers shouldn't blow any speaker.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

no I think you missed the point. He asked if it would hurt his speaker? You said that a deck can blow a speaker in your own post and I think that is the point here.


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

nineball said:


> i'll say it again - you cannot blow a speaker from underpowering it. it's just impossible. period.


this was stated on the first page.


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## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL (Jan 31, 2011)

Guess what. Those cheap sony speakers would have been blown with a 0db 20hz tone with 20 CLEAN UNCLIPPED WATTS too. Because the speaker was not capable of playing 20 watts at that frequency without going past xmax. And guess what, as you can probably guess by the bass boost being all the way up, she was listening to rap, with a lot of LOW FREQUENCY information, which pushes the speaker closer to mechanical failure even without a change in power going to them. I said multiple times in my post it wasnt because of to little power, it was because more power then they could handle at low frequencies. I'll tell you what. Take a $30 speaker and give it 20 clean watts at 100hz. Then give it 20 clean watts at 20hz. So, take a speaker, with clipped power, and no low frequencies boosted, playing rock music, and no problems for 2 years. Take the same speaker, with clipped power, bass boost, and music with a huge amount of low frequency info and kill the speaker. 

You yourself said that clipping kills a speaker over time. And if you'd read my posts, i said it was killed almost instantly. Hence the word "ex".

By the way, since you want to throw around degrees, its one person with a masters in physics, whose minor was math. He would have continued through with a doctorate if it wasnt for having my sister and I to take care of. He has been working as the head electrical engineer for a company that makes parts you probably use in everyday life for 25 years. The second person has a masters in physics as well, and is an electrical engineer for the same company. A company whos parts have been in space, the military, and probably your home.

Here is another quote from you, this time from a high end set of focal speakers. They recommend between 6-60 watts rms.

http://http://www.crutchfield.com/s_091165KRXS/Focal-K2-Power-165KRXS.html?tp=106


I'm done, you obviously didnt learn much with your "degree", and should stop spouting misinformation to the public that may take your advice seriously. But, this is the internet, the place where the uninformed are the loudest.


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## seekingSQnirvana (Dec 21, 2008)

shexy said:


> You can run them off your HU at considerable levels.. Just don't put em at full blast.
> 
> Underpowering=distortion=blown speakers.


I can't believe this thread has gone on this long. This was the second post, and it seems like perfectly reasonable advice to me.



shexy said:


> You can run them off your HU at considerable levels.. Just don't put em at full blast.



Would any of you recommend that he play it at full blast??


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL said:


> Guess what. Those cheap sony speakers would have been blown with a 0db 20hz tone with 20 CLEAN UNCLIPPED WATTS too. Because the speaker was not capable of playing 20 watts at that frequency without going past xmax. And guess what, as you can probably guess by the bass boost being all the way up, she was listening to rap, with a lot of LOW FREQUENCY information, which pushes the speaker closer to mechanical failure even without a change in power going to them. I said multiple times in my post it wasnt because of to little power, it was because more power then they could handle at low frequencies. I'll tell you what. Take a $30 speaker and give it 20 clean watts at 100hz. Then give it 20 clean watts at 20hz. So, take a speaker, with clipped power, and no low frequencies boosted, playing rock music, and no problems for 2 years. Take the same speaker, with clipped power, bass boost, and music with a huge amount of low frequency info and kill the speaker.
> 
> You yourself said that clipping kills a speaker over time. And if you'd read my posts, i said it was killed almost instantly. Hence the word "ex".
> 
> ...


Well, IMHO, if your physics degree friends don't work in the audio industry, then their knowledge on this subject is not expert advice. I work with a guy who has an EE degree and has been a master electrician for over 40yrs. He can troubleshoot the hell out of industrial equipment and program any PLC or piece of automated equipment we have. But he does not know much about car audio or how to properly wire up an amplifier in a car. Clipping kills speakers. Not because of low frequency signal but because the signal is distorted and burns up voice coils or shorts them out due to non linear movement. McIntosh has a circuit in their amps called "Power Guard" for this reason. It dials back the input signal at the sensing of a clipped signal at the output. They are industry experts who have been building audio equipment for years and even they say in their white pages that clipping blows speakers:

"The whole process of the Power Guard circuits takes only a fraction of a second. Although this action is not audible, the resulting sound at maximum power levels always stays "clean".

Not only was this a very important improvement for the amplifier, but also for loudspeakers. Many amplifiers, including McIntosh, could be inadvertently driven into clipping. Not only was the resulting sound harsh and distorted but also the energy generated from the harmonic distortion products was sometimes enough to burn out the mid-range and/or tweeters in some speaker systems. All new amplifier designs continued to feature Power Guard. "

If you want to read the whole thing, it can be found here:McIntosh Laboratory Part 2

In the snippet above they mentioned the mid-range and tweeter being burned out, which I'm sure has crossovers on them to keep low frequencies from going to those drivers.


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## seekingSQnirvana (Dec 21, 2008)

turbo5upra said:


> Your missing the question at hand. can too little power blow a speaker and the magic responce to that would be no!
> 
> can a deck blow a speaker? sure.... might not happen over night but it can do it.


the original question was not "can too little power blow a speaker?"

the original question was this:



tseng2394 said:


> question is,
> 
> *
> Will it hurt the speakers?
> ...





nineball said:


> asking an amp/headunit/eq/anything else in the chain to produce more power than it is safely capable of can send a distorted signal to the speaker and damage it.


nineball agrees you can hurt speakers with a h/u.



Fricasseekid said:


> I understand that sever clipping damages speakers.


Fricasseekid agrees you can hurt speakers with a h/u.



turbo5upra said:


> wow... just wow. I think we all agree clipping the poop out of something will cause a coil to melt down.
> Bottom line is. over driving a under powered amp will melt a coil quick.


turbo5upra agrees you can hurt speakers with a h/u.



narvarr said:


> its about having a clean unclipped signal. Too many times people crank on the volume knob to get more output but don't realize that they have gone past the capability of the head unit's internal amp. Once you past that point, you are clipping. Over a period of time this will burn up the voice coil...


narvarr agrees you can hurt speakers with a h/u.


ttocs388 OBVIOUSLY agrees you can hurt speakers with a h/u.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

seekingSQnirvana said:


> the original question was not "can too little power blow a speaker?"
> 
> the original question was this:
> 
> ...


I did say that severe clipping can damage a speaker! But were is the evidence that any decent HU will clip a signal?


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

thanks sq and navarr as I wanted to say the same thing about his electrical geniouses that work in the military commenting on audio. An electrical eng degree just gets your foot into some doorway that will then allow you to carve out a career and learn more in another specific field. If these guys only dabble in audio/installations then trying to remember what they learned maybe 20 yrs ago on a spot question could lead to bad info. I got my degree and went into semiconductors and my buddy from the same school went into undustrial conveyors design/setup. He could not comment on how a lithography machine in a semiconductor manf facility works just like I do not understand a pic500 like he does, and he knows nothing about audio.

like I said people like to argue, being sick and bored from laying in the same bed for the last 3 days I might fit that group. But when people tell me that my personal exp is 100% wrong well I will speak up to what I have seen and done. Funny how personal exp and an education mean nothing to the guys that are still in school and hoping to get a degree like mine and think asking people that have little exp and posting links means more then professional exp. then throw in a 3rd grader like buloser and this ends up being a hell of FUBAR situation.

so in the end we agree you CAN damage speakers with an underpowered deck amp with a few exceptions from people that have not been lucky enough to se it happen.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> I did say that severe clipping can damage a speaker! But were is the evidence that any decent HU will clip a signal?


because its really really easy. ALL AMPLIFIERS HAVE THE ABILITY TO CLIP A SIGNAL UNLESS THEIR OUTPUT IS LIMITED. IF that was the case you would end up with an output signal probably less then you want.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> unless you are buying a magical amp that never distorts, all amps can be pushed into clipping. Yes all of them big or little.


Most head units are set up so they can't be overdriven that way.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

So it seems to me somebody better post some factual evidence that a HU will actually clip the **** out of a signal at max volume! I've never heard it happen. There are probably more aftermarket systems on the road today that include only decent coaxes and a head unit, rather than carefully tuned amped, processed, and EQed systems. I would imagine that many of these entry level aftermarket systems are abused frequently! So why aren't there a bunch of blown speakers driving all over town? Why don't stocks head units blow speakers after the first few weeks/months of operation?


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## seekingSQnirvana (Dec 21, 2008)

Fricasseekid said:


> So it seems to me somebody better post some factual evidence that a HU will actually clip the **** out of a signal at max volume! I've never heard it happen.


What speakers are you running in your system?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

seekingSQnirvana said:


> What speakers are you running in your system?


Phoenix gold Ti 65CS. But I'm using the RSD 6.5 woofers with the Ti passives and tweets.


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## seekingSQnirvana (Dec 21, 2008)

Fricasseekid said:


> Phoenix gold Ti 65CS. But I'm using the RSD 6.5 woofers with the Ti passives and tweets.


Can I borrow them for a few weeks. Don't worry I just got a new car and don't have my entire system in yet. I just have the Eclipse 7000 h/u in., so they would be running off of that; no amp.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

forget that I want you to prove that your magical decks do not put out a clipped signal no matter what so I can get one. ALL AMPS CAN BE DRIVEN TO CLIPPING...... go outside turn up the bass and loudness on the deck and crank it up 100% and you will have your proof.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

seekingSQnirvana said:


> Can I borrow them for a few weeks. Don't worry I just got a new car and don't have my entire system in yet. I just have the Eclipse 7000 h/u in., so they would be running off of that; no amp.


hey when yer done send them my way and I will do the same! What could possibly go wrong mang?!


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

seekingSQnirvana said:


> Can I borrow them for a few weeks. Don't worry I just got a new car and don't have my entire system in yet. I just have the Eclipse 7000 h/u in., so they would be running off of that; no amp.


I doubt it would hurt them any worse than the MB Quart Q150.4 I'm running them off now could if I wasn't careful!


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

I have some stock 5x7s that are rated for about 10-15 watts RMS so I doubt you could damage those with your head unit cause you wouldn't be under powering them!


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## seekingSQnirvana (Dec 21, 2008)

Fricasseekid said:


> I doubt it would hurt them any worse than the MB Quart Q4.150 I'm running them off now could if I wasn't careful!


I thought you were saying there is no way it COULD hurt them?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

seekingSQnirvana said:


> I thought you were saying there is no way it COULD hurt them?


Do eclipse HU clip their signals?


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> I have some stock 5x7s that are rated for about 10-15 watts RMS so I doubt you could damage those with your head unit cause you wouldn't be under powering them!


yup, some people just like to argue to hear themselfs sound important. The rest of us know what is correct.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

seekingSQnirvana said:


> I thought you were saying there is no way it COULD hurt them?


I see subtle sarcasm is not your cup of tea...


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

and that logic is not yours either. yes eclipse decks can clip. turn the bass up all the way add the loudness and look/listen to what you have? How else would you describe the distortion that everyone except you seems to hear when they turn their decks up all the way. IF they could make non-clipping deck amps they would make fullsize non-clipping ams and then we would have no use to tune the amps and set the gains.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

So it seems to me somebody better post some factual evidence that a HU will actually clip the **** out of a signal at max volume! I've never heard it happen. There are probably more aftermarket systems on the road today that include only decent coaxes and a head unit, rather than carefully tuned amped, processed, and EQed systems. I would imagine that many of these entry level aftermarket systems are abused frequently! So why aren't there a bunch of blown speakers driving all over town? Why don't stocks head units blow speakers after the first few weeks/months of operation?

So why does real world evidence prove contrary?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Explain to me how auto manufacturers manage to build/engineer audio systems that don't blow the speakers? Are not most of them utilizing low grade, underpowered amplifiers?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

I stated that decks don't clip the **** out of the signal. Sure I can go outside make my deck distort but it would take ALOT of that abuse to blow my speakers.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> Explain to me how auto manufacturers manage to build/engineer audio systems that don't blow the speakers? Are not most of them utilizing low grade, underpowered amplifiers?


aaaaaaah which systems are you talking about? from what you have been preacing it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE TO BLOW A SPEAKER from deck power so I guess every system ever made would fit this catagory?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> aaaaaaah which systems are you talking about? from what you have been preacing it is 100% IMPOSSIBLE TO BLOW A SPEAKER from deck power so I guess every system ever made would fit this catagory?


Don't misquote me. I never said impossible. Your dumber than last night. Goodnight cowboy!


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

let me put it this way... If a decks power was to never EVER clip its output, what would you need an external amp for? If it never clipped then theoretically you could turn it up to infinity and power any sub you want with it as it would have unlimited power. Its just the nature of the beast, everything has its limits.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> I stated that decks don't clip the **** out of the signal. Sure I can go outside make my deck distort but it would take ALOT of that abuse to blow my speakers.





Fricasseekid said:


> Don't misquote me. I never said impossible. Your dumber than last night. Goodnight cowboy!


ah c'mon now lets no call names and go back to 3rd grade. This is a debate and for you an education(if you listen).

if a deck never clipped, then I guess it is just the massive amounts of power they put out that blows speakers huh?

and now you finally come around and agree thanks. As we have been saying for a while it takes time at high volumes to build up the heat needed to damage it. But guess what people do that every day!

good night and thanks for finally seeing the light.


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## nineball (Jan 17, 2008)

seekingSQnirvana said:


> the original question was not "can too little power blow a speaker?"
> 
> the original question was this:
> 
> will it hurt my speakers?


actually what started it all off was the second post:




shexy said:


> You can run them off your HU at considerable levels.. Just don't put em at full blast.
> 
> Underpowering=distortion=blown speakers.


which is not a true statement. ttocs388 took the ball and ran the wrong way with it and derailed the entire thread into a conversation about jobs, school, who has the bigger epenis and whose dad can beat up the other's. 

as stated, and quoted, you cannot damage a speaker by underpowering it. period. sending a clipped/bad signal to a speaker IS NOT the same thing.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

ah but yet we have more then one person on here that has blown a speaker off of deck power, which was less then the max power rating of the speaker. you are correct that underpowering does not necessarily = distortion = blown speakers but an under powered amp will go into clipping sooner then a well designed high power amp and we have now all agreed that clipping speakers is bad now right. Not sure what you are still arguing for unless you have a chub from it now.

Sorry that I wanted to know who I was debating with and what their experience was as it is relevant the topic. Anyone can respond on here so I would love to know that the people responding have experience in what they are talking/debating and not just cutting/pasting random links with no author listed. I wasn't the the one to bring in what who's daddy did to show what I know as while he is a smart guy I would not have him wire my car and knew it didn't matter here. While the guys that worked on the tomahawk are obviously smart people, would you want them wiring your car? 

sorry you don't have the education nor experience in the field to be able to support your ideas with intelligent points of interest. Not my fault so don't blame me or get mad at me.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

You have yet to provide concrete evidence that's proves all HU will clip a signal very bad. I do believe a HU can distort a signal, but I do believe mist HU are designed to not clip the signal so badly as to creat what you so misguidedly call DC current. I have NEVER seen a HU smoke a voice coil! Where us your testing, data, and factual evidence to back this up? 

Your career and experience is not evidence! Your arguments are misleading and full of logical fallacies. Bring some hard concrete facts to the table!


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## b&camp (Jan 27, 2011)

Underpowering doesn't kill speakers. Distortion doesn't kill speakers. The only thing that kills speakers is TOO MUCH POWER. Period.


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

b&camp said:


> Underpowering doesn't kill speakers. Distortion doesn't kill speakers. The only thing that kills speakers is TOO MUCH POWER. Period.


Sooo I guess the amp designers at McIntosh are wrong...

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


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## b&camp (Jan 27, 2011)

Which wave has more area under the curve?


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

b&camp said:


> Underpowering doesn't kill speakers. Distortion doesn't kill speakers. The only thing that kills speakers is TOO MUCH POWER. Period.


For what it's worth, you are right and wrong at the same time. A clipped, distorted signal has almost twice the power of a sine wave of the same frequency. If you take a 50hz sine wave and put it under a 50hz square wave, you will see there is more area (energy) under the square wave. All AC voltage has a DC component. If you take a DMM and set it for DC voltage while measuring a 120 volt socket, you wil get a DC voltage reading that is always changing. At that point you are at full amplitude for longer. That straight line at the top and bottom of that square wave is your DC voltage component. The overall wave form is AC but when you clip (square wave) you are in the DC component of AC voltage for longer.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

b&camp said:


> Which wave has more area under the curve?


Damn your fast! You posted that while I was typing the last responce.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

narvarr said:


> For what it's worth, you are right and wrong at the same time. A clipped, distorted signal has almost twice the power of a sine wave of the same frequency. If you take a 50hz sine wave and put it under a 50hz square wave, you will see there is more area (energy) under the square wave. All AC voltage has a DC component. If you take a DMM and set it for DC voltage while measuring a 120 volt socket, you wil get a DC voltage reading that is always changing. At that point you are at full amplitude for longer. That straight line at the top and bottom of that square wave is your DC voltage component. The overall wave form is AC but when you clip (square wave) you are in the DC component of AC voltage for longer.
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


This is good sense. But the photo above is not a normal clip. I doubt that perfect square wave happens often, especially in a HU, and as the clipping lessens and gets closer to a regular wave, the DC component lessens exponentially.


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

Fricasseekid said:


> This is good sense. But the photo above is not a normal clip. I doubt that perfect square wave happens often, especially in a HU, and as the clipping lessens and gets closer to a regular wave, the DC component lessens exponentially.


True, but you also have to take into consideration the suspension of the driver. Distortion causes speakers to move in non linear fashion, suspension is weakened over time from moving in a manner it wasn't designed to move may eventually start rubbing. Now you voice coil is shorted out against the pole piece.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


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## b&camp (Jan 27, 2011)

The only time DC is an issue is if your amp ****s the bed and has massive DC offset.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

narvarr said:


> True, but you also have to take into consideration the suspension of the driver. Distortion causes speakers to move in non linear fashion, suspension is weakened over time from moving in a manner it wasn't designed to move may eventually start rubbing. Now you voice coil is shorted out against the pole piece.
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


This also makes sense. So where this brings this thread is that:
Under powering does not hurt speakers whatsoever. 
Clipping can damage a speaker and any amount of power can be clipped. 


So? Just how extreme must a signal be clipped (and does the amount if wattage directly affect this?) before it causes permanent damage to a driver and are the majority if HUs capable of clipping a signal to such an extent?


Cause the fact is most entry level audio setups are abused and at this moment there are probably 1000s of ignorant people riding around listening to loud, clipped signals and none the wiser, so why aren't speakers dropping like flies? That's about as concrete as it gets!


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

Fricasseekid said:


> This is good sense. But the photo above is not a normal clip. I doubt that perfect square wave happens often, especially in a HU, and as the clipping lessens and gets closer to a regular wave, the DC component lessens exponentially.


Glad you were able to understand what I was trying to explain. Sometimes it helps to have a visual aide.
Thanks B&Camp for posting that pic.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

narvarr said:


> Glad you were able to understand what I was trying to explain. Sometimes it helps to have a visual aide.
> Thanks B&Camp for posting that pic.
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


Calculus helps too!


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

Fricasseekid said:


> This also makes sense. So where this brings this thread is that:
> Under powering does not hurt speakers whatsoever.
> Clipping can damage a speaker and any amount of power can be clipped.
> 
> ...


Who says they aren't. Most manufacturers understan that consumers will abuse their product, so they put in a little cushion on the power ratings. And most people have enough sense to turn the volume down when it starts to sound bad, but not everyone.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

narvarr said:


> Who says they aren't. Most manufacturers understan that consumers will abuse their product, so they put in a little cushion on the power ratings. And most people have enough sense to turn the volume down when it starts to sound bad, but not everyone.
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


Most people, if anyone, don't have the ears to detect soft clipping. That why people use fancy oscillators and RTAs to tune their expensive SQ set ups.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

In order for a signal to be clipped to such an extent that the wave is actually square and the driver is spending 99% of it's time being driven by only the DC component of the wave; the amplitude would have to be through the roof! Say a 15 watt HU attempting to make a signal requiring 500 watts? This is unrealistic.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> This also makes sense. So where this brings this thread is that:
> Under powering does not hurt speakers whatsoever.
> Clipping can damage a speaker and any amount of power can be clipped.
> 
> ...


ah speakers blow every day, ever wonder how all those audio places stay open? I would be happy to hook my scope up to my deck and show you my alpine clipping but I am sure that you would then attack my scope/deck/what ever as it doesn't matter what we tell you decks are some magical mystical thing that never clip.

again if deck never clipped their power would be infinite, and we would never need to add more amps to get more power. If amps didn't clip then there would be no gain settings on them since tuning would not matter. 

Why do you think they recomend when you tune your system by hear you open the deck volume up to 2/3-3/4 full volume when you adjust your gains? Because shortly after that is when the deck would start to clip the signal is why.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

narvarr said:


> If you take a DMM and set it for DC voltage while measuring a 120 volt socket, you wil get a DC voltage reading that is always changing. At that point you are at full amplitude for longer. That straight line at the top and bottom of that square wave is your DC voltage component. The overall wave form is AC but when you clip (square wave) you are in the DC component of AC voltage for longer.
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


Negative ghostrider... Unless you have something REALLY wrong with your AC power... I have my fluke 87 in an AC outlet now and have between -.002 to -.004V of "DC" and it's far from all over the place at which point I would not call that any offset.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> ah speakers blow every day, ever wonder how all those audio places stay open? I would be happy to hook my scope up to my deck and show you my alpine clipping but I am sure that you would then attack my scope/deck/what ever as it doesn't matter what we tell you decks are some magical mystical thing that never clip.
> 
> again if deck never clipped their power would be infinite, and we would never need to add more amps to get more power. If amps didn't clip then there would be no gain settings on them since tuning would not matter.
> 
> Why do you think they recomend when you tune your system by hear you open the deck volume up to 2/3-3/4 full volume when you adjust your gains? Because shortly after that is when the deck would start to clip the signal is why.


I'm no longer interested in carrying on this with you unless you have something concrete and productive to contribute! You taught me nothing and all of your arguments are opinionated and speculative!


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

I agree that there would be no dc in a wall outlet because that is a pure sign wave that goes just as negative as it does posative. play pure sign waves through your deck and if all is working correctly the dc output should be similar. No play music through the deck where all the different signals are playing at once(different instruments) and you will probably get readings that jump around alot.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Sine.... Short for Sinusoidal....


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

that was funny sorry..... typin too fast and not rereading lol... been a ling time since I talked sine waves.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

it's all good. Autocorrect hates it too.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> I agree that there would be no dc in a wall outlet because that is a pure sign wave that goes just as negative as it does posative. play pure sign waves through your deck and if all is working correctly the dc output should be similar. No play music through the deck where all the different signals are playing at once(different instruments) and you will probably get readings that jump around alot.


Jump around alot? Is that a technical explanation? What jumps around alot? You'll get more varied DC reading because the AC signal is carrying multiple frequencies?


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

Fricasseekid said:


> Jump around alot? Is that a technical explanation? What jumps around alot? You'll get more varied DC reading because the AC signal is carrying multiple frequencies?


Yes.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


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## narvarr (Jan 20, 2009)

You get a more varried reading because of the waveforms shape. Because it peaks and starts to come back down or vise versa, you will not get a solid reading.

Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

narvarr said:


> You get a more varried reading because of the waveforms shape. Because it peaks and starts to come back down or vise versa, you will not get a solid reading.
> 
> Sent from my X10i using Tapatalk


@ narvarr

Your input Is appreciated. You speak clearly and factually. I feel that I have something to gain from a discussion with you. 

Please understand that I know that the signal fluctuates. But I was simply talking with respect to the DC component read by a DMM as discussed a few posts back.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

A pure sine wave is just as negative as it is posative so the net DC output is = 0. Now on an audio track the signal goes all over the place but is not a pure sine wave as notes change, drums are hit, ect. When you try to measure DC on a varied ac signal it will take readings of the random music signal and then try to read them in DC which would take something of an average of the signals if I remember correctly. I am not posative on this because its been a while since I was in school but I think its ok.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> A pure sine wave is just as negative as it is posative so the net DC output is = 0. Now on an audio track the signal goes all over the place but is not a pure sine wave as notes change, drums are hit, ect. When you try to measure DC on a varied ac signal it will take readings of the random music signal and then try to read them in DC which would take something of an average of the signals if I remember correctly. I am not posative on this because its been a while since I was in school but I think its ok.


Oh! You decided to join the discussion! Lol

So your saying that when a DC signal is found in a fluctuating AC signal, like with music, it's because there are spaces where the waves frequencies level out before raising or lowering again?

So when does it become enough to fry a coil?


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

sorry I had to sleep but then you don't believe anything I say for some reason so I question why I even bother but still have hope for you. not sure why you assume you know more then me about it but whatchagonnado?

if the signal stays more posative then it does negative for a short time, it will show a readings(plural) above 0. If it stays a little more negative then posative for a short time you will see readings below 0. But on almost any music track if you try to measure DC voltage it will just fluctuate(since you want technical terms) from random numbers back and forth.

you will get the same random readings if you measure AC voltage on the output while playing music but the readings should be higher.

you seem to have stopped beating the dead horse about amps clipping does that mean we made some headway there?


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

no I am not saying DC is found in a music sample unless something is really really wrong. BUt your meter will still try to measure it since you have it on those settings.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

No. Were just breaking it down big bird-Barney style!


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

You did say that speakers blow all the time, but I didn't respond because. You seem to fail to realize the the number of blown speakers compared to the number of abused systems on the road is minuscule. So just because it happens does not make it the norm! The norm is abused speakers and cranked out HU playing happily for lengthy periods of time!


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

when a meter measures ac, what it does it takes the negative portion of the sine wave and inverts it so that it is posative. What happens then is it takes an rms reading of the signal which is not basically two posative half cycles of signal back to back. The rms reading is = .707 x the posative voltage peak.

When you measure DC the meters usualy take 2-3 readins of the input and takes a general ave of the readings it gets, but of course it expects them to be constant and should not have much of a change in it. When it does this it taking random points of the music and reading and tries to interpret the ac signal into a DC reading. SInce it is always changing that average will jump around back and forth showing random readings all below the peak voltages(both posative and negative)

When you measure The wall for DC again it takes random reading a few times a second but in a pure sine wave that is reliably staying the same the average should be close to 0 if everything is perfect which we know it never is.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Another thing you say is that if a head unit doesn't clip a signal it must have an infinite power supply. So if the power supply is limited and it clips the signal to an extreme would you say that is capable of being turned up to an infinite amplitude but it's clipped because the limited power cuts the top and bottom of the wave? 

Or do you think it's more likely that manufacturers would limit the volume/amplitude capabilities of a head unit so that it can only be turned up to the point at which it soft clips or doesn't clip at all. That way they can maintain signal quality?


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> when a meter measures ac, what it does it takes the negative portion of the sine wave and inverts it so that it is posative. What happens then is it takes an rms reading of the signal which is not basically two posative half cycles of signal back to back. The rms reading is = .707 x the posative voltage peak.
> 
> When you measure DC the meters usualy take 2-3 readins of the input and takes a general ave of the readings it gets, but of course it expects them to be constant and should not have much of a change in it. When it does this it taking random points of the music and reading and tries to interpret the ac signal into a DC reading. SInce it is always changing that average will jump around back and forth showing random readings all below the peak voltages(both posative and negative)
> 
> When you measure The wall for DC again it takes random reading a few times a second but in a pure sine wave that is reliably staying the same the average should be close to 0 if everything is perfect which we know it never is.


So a DMM is useless for detecting real time DC current put out by an amplifier?


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> You did say that speakers blow all the time, but I didn't respond because. You seem to fail to realize the the number of blown speakers compared to the number of abused systems on the road is minuscule. So just because it happens does not make it the norm! The norm is abused speakers and cranked out HU playing happily for lengthy periods of time!


I agree and its places like this that tell people to tune their systems with meters that help to add the problem. Now I have replaced damaged or blown speakers in cars from older people that were no jamming but you are correct the majority of the time someone comes in with a blown speaker when I got in the car the bass controls were maxed as well as the volume while playing rap and sounds like crap.

As we all agreed earlier it takes someone that doesn't understant what clipping sounds like to keep it up for too long thinkin it sounds good. Speakers that are operated in the way they are designed and kept in their limits(and that are good quality) will generally have the surronds rot out before they just give up playing. I have pulled many many speakers where the surrround was almost completely gone and the spider is the only thing holding it together.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

Fricasseekid said:


> So a DMM is useless for detecting real time DC current put out by an amplifier?


no it can measure The Dc offset(somewhat) if there is a problem but again if there is actually any DC in the signal there is a bigger problem. What will happen is that the point the AC goes up and down between will move up from 0V which is normal to say the 4v line. So now if you had a pure sine wave that went from 2vp to a -2vp(for a total of 4v peak-to-peak) will now vary from 6-2 volts(still 4v p-p) but the point that your amp starts clipping remains the same. So now you have the ability to move more power though the speaker which will mean its life will be much shorter. When this hapens the DC voltage pushes the speaker out(like when we test a speaker with a battery) and then the music will try to play around that point as though it was 0v. You will obviously be pushing the speaker closer to is posative X-max and risk hurting it. When Dc voltage is applied to a speaker it just sees the speaker as a resistor and then the coil will build up heat.

but to answer your question quickly no a meter will not show the true DC reading of an ac signal if there is DC in it. It would just show more posative readings then negative. The only way to really see it is with a scope.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> I agree and its places like this that tell people to tune their systems with meters that help to add the problem. Now I have replaced damaged or blown speakers in cars from older people that were no jamming but you are correct the majority of the time someone comes in with a blown speaker when I got in the car the bass controls were maxed as well as the volume while playing rap and sounds like crap.
> 
> As we all agreed earlier it takes someone that doesn't understant what clipping sounds like to keep it up for too long thinkin it sounds good. Speakers that are operated in the way they are designed and kept in their limits(and that are good quality) will generally have the surronds rot out before they just give up playing. I have pulled many many speakers where the surrround was almost completely gone and the spider is the only thing holding it together.


Like a factory speaker in an old car? Even one that was driven by a teenager who maxed out the bass and volume? Why dont the voice coils crap in that case? Like in every car I ever drove in my younger years?


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

they do as we already agreed but it takes time under abuse to do it. depends on the system but sometimes it can take 15-20 mins of abuse(really cheap) and sometimes it can take hours, sometimes it never happens.

again running an underpowered amp into clipping does not always instantly = smoke and may never ever = smoke. but anytime someone tells you that there is no way it can happen just means that they were either smart enough to recognize it was clipping and keep it out of it, maybe their system was designed to be robust enough to handle what they gave it, or they have just been lucky.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Fricasseekid said:


> So a DMM is useless for detecting real time DC current put out by an amplifier?


If an amp is putting out DC it's blown up. or it's direct coupled and the component in front of it is blown up.

A square wave is AC. alternating current can take on the form of a square-wave, sawtooth, sine, you name it. As long as it crosses the x axis... it's AC. If it DOES NOT cross the X axis it's either positive or negative DC.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

have you ever seen dc on a scope? it is a flat line. What does the clipped portion of the signal look like? 

Disconnect the power wire to your amp. Now plug it in for a split second and then disconnect it. Was that short burst ac or was it DC? DC voltage is a flat line and doesn't matter if it is for 10 secs or for .001 secs. When a flat line shows up on a scope you can't call it ac, it is DC current. Yes it will then change which does mean it IS an ac signal but it does have a short DC componant in the middle of it.


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## Lazy1 (Jun 21, 2011)

So if I connect a speaker to a 9 volt battery and then disconnect it again it just received AC power? Try this with your speakers if your confident. AC is just a change in potential, it could be 5v changing to 20v and back, that never crosses the x axis but it is AC.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

nope, pulsed DC. it never CROSSES the x axis or experienced the other side of the BL curve.

I'm confident enough to do it.... it's not going to blow them up.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

he is correct on both. Now if you take the battery and reverse the polarity to the speaker and do it over and over you will have an ac signal with a square wave output. 

A short touch on a 9v will make the speaker make a popping noise but will to little harm. Now leave it on there for a long time and let the heat continue to build and you could cause some problems.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ttocs388 said:


> he is correct on both. Now if you take the battery and reverse the polarity to the speaker and do it over and over you will have an ac signal with a square wave output.
> 
> A short touch on a 9v will make the speaker make a popping noise but will to little harm. Now leave it on there for a long time and let the heat continue to build and you could cause some problems.


absolutely.

it's gonna have to be a pretty fragile coil for a 9V battery to burn it up, like a tweet. But yeah, a quick pop ain't gonna do no foul.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

I thought we were getting some where until I read all of this mallarky!!! 

If you use a split second of AC I don't believe it is possible to only see the flat line on the top or bottom and perceive that as DC current. How is it possible to have the positive component without the negative, or vica versa, or of an AC signal. Where would the powere go? I guess it would just sit in the driver waiting for you to plug it back in huh? Lol


If you take a battery and switch the polarity back and forth, I dont care how fast your doing it! You are not gonna create an AC "wave" of any kind. It's just a bunch of short burst of DC current that are random and unconnected in any wave form whatsoever! There is never any voltage coming anywhere near the 0 axis at any point. 


Why do we keep making these ridiculous comparisons people? Especially the ones of you who are supposedly educated in this stuf.... Shame on you!


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

it will be AC with a long crossover.... 

let's not look at gating or time base yet.

Its basically a human based commutator.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

again a flat line, anywhere on the scope is DC current. Doesn't matter how long it is there could be a microsecond but a flat line on a scope is read as DC. The graph shown earlier shows when/where it it clipped.

ac has a number of different outputs from square to saw-toothed. as long as teh current varys it doesn't matter what it looks like and is still ac. 

taking a 9v and reversing means you will have a 18V peak to peak alternating current(varying from 9v to -9v) and the frequency that you reverse it will determin the output freq.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

read please.

Square wave signals : MIXED-FREQUENCY AC SIGNALS


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

and more

AC waveforms : BASIC AC THEORY

if you do not understand something, it doesn't mean its wrong. I am not trying to mislead you that is not what I do. Since the beginning I have been trying to educate people so sit back, keep an open mind and I gurantee you will learn something...


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

now if you just took the battery, did not reverse it and kept connecting, disconnecting THAT is pulsed dc because it does not go back past the base line voltage.

0v
9v
0v
9v=pulsed DC

-9v
9v
-9v
9v= ac voltage. It doesn't matter the shape of the form, square, triangle and sawtooth are all wave forms of ac voltage.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

I think a LOT of misunderstanding comes into play when people mistake the plateau of a square wave as DC.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

alot of misunderstant in general here between the differences of ac and dc voltage.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> now if you just took the battery, did not reverse it and kept connecting, disconnecting THAT is pulsed dc because it does not go back past the base line voltage.
> 
> 0v
> 9v
> ...


What about the slope of the wave in between the positive and negative burst? The voltage must be increasing and decreasing in between in order for it to be considered a wave function. If the positive and negative pulse start and stop on the same value then the line connecting them is vertical thus having a slope of infinity, thus it is NOT a wave function and cannot be considered as an AC signal. That's grad school mathematics!


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

dude seriously did you read the links? It has picks and a very good explanation AND IS KNOWN AS BASIC AC THEORY. the slope of the wave form has NOTHING to do with AC and if you think it does that is grade school math. Maybe navarr will chime in since you seem to think he is not lyin to ya like I am........

I can't tell if you are really that dense that I will have to talk slow and use alot of hand signals for you to understand or what it would take. Are you being serious now or still just trying to wind people up for your own enjoyment?


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

ac waveform - Google Search

all pics of ac wave forms. Do a simple search and do some reading before you start spouting your diareah of the mouth. You need to do ALOT more reading then you do type unless you are asking a question and when you ask a question its common to listen for the answer you seek. 

I now invite you to prove me wrong that an ac waveform can be square wave, triangular or sawtoothed an ANTHING inbetween as long as the current varies across the base votage. You find no mention of slope in the ac signals that make/break it ac diagnosis.

here are some more pics for you of ac wave forms. 

http://www.google.com/search?q=ac+w...&ei=gSUbTuqwNK__sQLg6vTBBw&sqi=2&ved=0CCIQsAQ


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

ttocs388 said:


> alot of misunderstant in general here between the differences of ac and dc voltage.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

and more good reading but with bigger pictures for the simple minded, all about ac.

Basic AC Circuit Theory, The AC Waveform

omg more pics!

What is waveform? - Definition from Whatis.com

you seriously do not know 1/10th of what you think you do and try to act like. This attitude will not only lead to misinformation to all the other people you try to teach but also limit you from learnig the BASICS OF AC THEORY. 

again you can attack my education but it is clear that the bag of chips I think it was compaired to earlier was worth 10x more then anything you have now.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

chad said:


>


and its people like frisceebrat that can't open their mind enough to try and learn and never shut up long enough to learn what people are telling him that spread this misinformation. I feel sorry for people like him and all the other people they mislead in the future, as well as the people that have to deal with him on a daily basis.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Ok, checked out the link. And it seems that I could not find info on whether or not a vertical line on a non-sinusoidal AC waveform is "truly" vertical. Just cause it appears so on a graph does not mean that it doesn't actually have a VERY steep slope. Pictures prove nothing.


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

please find me a definition of ac waveforms that explains how the angle of slope determins if it is ac? pretty please?

you can thank me when this is all over and apologize as well. I spent alot of time and money on this stuff and to try and give it to you for free to have it thown back and told I am wrong by someone with obviously VERY minimal exp in this subj is bigger then any insult you have tossed back at me.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Why are you angry? I was futzing around with you the other night but now that I am seriously taking part in this discussion you seem to be defensive and angry?


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

you are not participating. participating means that when you ask a question, you listen to the answer. by listen I mean open up and think that hey, maybe it is true SINCE I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF OR EXP TO PROVE HIM WRONG..... 

seriously now just prove me wrong until them I am done trying to educate someone that has no need to since he obviously knows everything.

please find me the definition of how slope deterimins if it is an ac wave and if you can't them come back and say,"hey you were right sorry I kept doubting you, and then insulted you, then kept doubting you agian". my words have obviously no weight yet in your mind and you will need to do your own reading from here to learn what I was trying to show you.

good luck mang YOU WILL NEED IT!

and I await the day that you realize "oh hell ttocs was right!".


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

ttocs388 said:


> you are not participating. participating means that when you ask a question, you listen to the answer. by listen I mean open up and think that hey, maybe it is true SINCE I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF OR EXP TO PROVE HIM WRONG.....
> 
> seriously now just prove me wrong until them I am done trying to educate someone that has no need to since he obviously knows everything.
> 
> ...


Ok, deal!


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## ttocs388 (Jun 25, 2010)

do what ever you want but I am done preachin to the choir and wasting my time on it.

good luck in your studies.


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## Richv72 (May 11, 2012)

This old thread was hillarious and very informative all at the same time.


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## Fricasseekid (Apr 19, 2011)

Oh hell, Ttocs was right!


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