# New Soundstream amps



## Fatbloke (Jul 23, 2008)

I've heard many times how great the old SS amps are. I've also heard plenty of times that they went through a period of a distinct dip in quality. Having had a search around here I've now seen that some items are at a better standard.

My question is: what amps are better and what are worth avoiding?

The rest of the system is going to be McIntosh source (MX4000, MDA4000, MDC4000), processor undecided and HAT Legatia or Legatia SE speakers. As you can imagine from that list, I'm after good SQ....

Many thanks


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

To be honest...I would think any older Soundstream amp that is still running today was probably not one of the problem units. Still, the early Reference units were their claim to fame.

The current Soundstream product are of course the work of a completely different company as this is a new day and age. Nevertheless, they seem like good products and they made an attempt to make improvements to the old designs. 

Myself, I recently won an auction on ebay for a used REF1.500 at a very nice price. This amp will power my sub and I think I will pick up the 2 channel REF2.640 to power my midbasses. I have a Genesis S3 Four Channel to power my mids and tweeters. I will see just how good these new Soundstream amps are even though there are many other good amps around...Sometimes trying things out for yourself is the only way to know what a product is all about. I don't know if this helps you any? However, even if I had better or more opinionated information...I would say take it with a grain of salt regarding amps.


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## Fatbloke (Jul 23, 2008)

Thanks for that. I understand the best way to make your opinion is to test it yourself. However, I'm thinking about this: HRU.4 SOUNDSTREAM AMPLIFIER 4 CH 960 W HUMAN REIGN AMP | eBay and am not convinced I wanting to spend that sort of cash on a 'maybe'.

Also, being in the UK, I don't have too many chances to listen to someone else's new SS amps. I know several people with the old versions. 

I'm not expecting Class A 10.0 standard performance, I'm just trying to avoid a huge disappointment.


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## IBcivic (Jan 6, 2009)

Found a ton of good reviews on here.... 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1018907-post13.html


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Fatbloke said:


> However, I'm thinking about this: HRU.4 SOUNDSTREAM AMPLIFIER 4 CH 960 W HUMAN REIGN AMP | eBay and am not convinced I wanting to spend that sort of cash on a 'maybe'.


 Maybe Grizz Archer can chime in on this one but....Those are supposed to be similar in internal design to the original. It was stated that these new HRU and the REF amps are better than the original in many ways...some even think these new amps sound better. There are positive comments out there however, we all have a different level of influence.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ns/79952-soundstream-human-reign-hru-4-a.html


fourthmeal said:


> Oh yeah, check this out. If you look at Soundstream in Australia, you get more useful info from their website:
> 
> You say you want one of the highest regarded amplifiers ever made? You say you don’t want to spend bazillion dollars? You spoke and we listened. Human Reign amplifiers are back! The original were very pricey due to extraordinatry heatsink. The guys are the same, high end parts you loved in the original, but now, at about half the price! Human Reign amplifiers accept low level and balanced line inputs via our BLT Balanced Line Transmitters and the long-biased transistor period yield unparalleled sound quality. With a pre-amp section that is unrivaled by any other brand, the Human Reign amplifiers are the ultimate audiophile products for the ultimate audiophile system… Magazine Review Auto hifi, Germany’s premier autosound magazine had this to say about the Human Reign amplifiers… “The American amplifier blacksmiths, Soundstream, have created a monster to stir up the world with their 2 channel amplifier. They Americans have a top-of-the-line amplifier that has gone into the class of excellence. They let William Boddy hand design the heatsink – a solid chunk of aluminium with a bronzed finish. All the engineering efforts showed well in the laboratory. A signal-to-noise ration of 99dB and a damping factor of 1800 in the bass region are two of the amplifier’s best features. A distortion factor of 0.005% takes second place to nobody. According to the laboratory results, impressing in every aspect, we congratulate the amplifier on being in the Reference Class!”
> --
> ...


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## Sleeves (Oct 22, 2010)

WLDock said:


> Maybe Grizz Archer can chime in on this one but....Those are supposed to be similar in internal design to the original. It was stated that these new HRU and the REF amps are better than the original in many ways...some even think these new amps sound better. There are positive comments out there however, we all have a different level of influence.
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ns/79952-soundstream-human-reign-hru-4-a.html


The circuit board layout is supposed to be identical with the main question being if lower tolerance parts were used after the buy-out. Regardless, I've owned more than my fair share of "classic" Soundstream products and have a post buy-out HRU.4. That amp is fantastic and it will stay with me for a long time to come.


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

I'll try and keep this short.

The original Reference amplifiers ('94 / '95) were very, very good amplifiers. Most common issues were mediocre solder joints on the perpendicular driver PCB's, causing channels to cut in and out.
This can easily be solved if you're handy with a soldering iron.
Other issue were the rectifiers. This could cause differernt kind of problems like a short circuit, sometimes damaging other parts in its path, or very high DC voltage on the speakers outputs, burning your speakers / subs.
Other issue was that stubborn types would run them at a certain low impedance where the amp needs to be in High Current mode, but they'd tried to squeeze even more power out of them by keeping them in High Power mode at these incredibly low impedances, which was a user error. Many amps got damaged this way, sadly.
Sometimes the switches would not function properly, with sound cutting in and out on a channel. This can be resolved with some contact cleaner spray, in my experience.

The s ('96) and sx ('97) series had problems of their own. They introduced the 2.0 / 5.0 volt gain switches which are by far the worst. Again, spraying them with the right stuff and working them back and forth several times works most of the time.
Since they did not want owners to damage the amps with the High Power / High Current issues, they introduced the automatic switch, which was said to be problematic in some cases. I can't confirm that myself.
Also, for the sx series, they received a bad batch of parts, which made a very high percentage of amps burn up on the very first power up. This was a nuisance for owners and installers as they'd had to change it for an other amp, which in some cases would burn up as well. Those alive today are perfectly good amps. Don't buy them new in box without having the seller test them first !

Soundstream amps got a bad reputation due to the sx series.
Therefore, the Rubicon amps never got that popular as they should have been.
They are great amps, with reliability of the first gen Reference while having more features.

What most people don't seem to realise is that they avoid the sx amps like the plague while spending huge sums of money on Reference Picasso's and Class A 10.0 which ARE s / sx amps, simple as that.

Me I don't mind using any of these amps. I mainly stick to s / sx series and Rubicons as the orginal Refs don't have BLT inputs and only have 2.5 volt gains, while my head unit has 8 volt pre-outs. Even with the 5 volt gains of the later series, I can't turn up the volume very far, therefore I personally don't use the originals.
If you're good with a soldering iron, these amps are fantastic. Most issues are minor issues, but to someone who is not technically skilled an issue is an issue and the amp needs to be sent in for repair, which is a shame if it only involves refreshing some driver PCB solderings or spraying some switches.

I have both Class A (high bias) as well as the 'regular' models.
Some people tend to waste their time bashing the Class A's for "they are not truly Class A amps" and they are right as there are almost zero real Class A amps for the car enenvironment except for the HSS Fidelity tube amp and maybe one or two others, but fact is the high bias models do sound different and I tend to prefer them.

The Ref and Rubi Picasso and the Rubi Renoir are the cleanest, but if you put a Rubicon 5.2 or 10.2 on some speakers (they were designed with sub in mind on which they sound terrific) you'll be blown away by the SQ as well. Haven't tested my Ref 10.0 yet.

Generally, any Ref or Rubi sounds fantastic on sub, but even on sub I tend to prefer the high bias models as they are slightly less precise (rounder), the 'regulars' have a perfectly precise impact which is not my personal taste. Depends on the subs you pair them with, of course.

As I am a firm believer that amps do not sound the same, I've been doing some experimenting with different op-amps on some of these amplifiers and in my experience I'd say the differences are very, very, very slight and in most cases non-existent or at least not detectableby ear. We are currently playing the first 10 seconds of a track over and over again and one can hear a very minor difference in the guitar string of a high quality recording maybe caused by a different speed or slew rate, don't know.
But I tend to think the persons that are describing op-amps as warm / bright / etc / etc are hearing things that I certainly am not. I'd say agressive / laidback might be possible though I'd say these words are a bit strong to describe the minor differences I might be hearing but could probably not pick apart in a blind test.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Great post azvrt...leave it to a tech type to tell the real story. Many of the amps from the past are great products but some did have issues that had to be dealt with. Even other legends like the PG MS amps. Nevertheless, I just got the REF1.500 and it is a nice looking amp. I can't wait to put it to work.


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

azvrt said:


> I'll try and keep this short.


Have you every compared the Rubicon Picasso or Renoir to the Human Reign?


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

Blazemore said:


> Have you every compared the Rubicon Picasso or Renoir to the Human Reign?


No I haven't. The Ref / Rubi Picasso and Rubi Renoir are unique amplifiers (well so is the Human Reign) they are different from the other Class A models from that era. They are very, very clean amps.

The Human Reign is an entirely different amplifier from a different era. I have no experience with it.


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

azvrt said:


> No I haven't. The Ref / Rubi Picasso and Rubi Renoir are unique amplifiers (well so is the Human Reign) they are different from the other Class A models from that era. They are very, very clean amps.
> 
> The Human Reign is an entirely different amplifier from a different era. I have no experience with it.


I have plenty of Rubi Picasso / Renoirs and yes they are very clean amps. Unfortunately I never had the chance to compare the two. I just haven't found an knowledgeable person who has owned either a old or newer Human Reign and a Rubi Picasso. 

I've been on the fence about buying a HR4.

Have you ever modified (caps etc) your Picasso's / Renoirs.


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

I´d say SQ-wise it would be very hard for the Human Reign to beat the Picasso / Renoir, but who knows.

The Human Reign is power-oriented but might have great SQ, I don´t know.
Just keep using your Picasso and Renoir, can´t go wrong there.
The 5.2 and 10.2 are also fantastic.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

azvrt said:


> I´d say SQ-wise it would be very hard for the Human Reign to beat the Picasso / Renoir, but who knows.
> 
> The Human Reign is power-oriented but might have great SQ, I don´t know.
> Just keep using your Picasso and Renoir, can´t go wrong there.
> The 5.2 and 10.2 are also fantastic.


Power oriented? Yes... SQ? Yes also  
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=33591&stc=1&d=1327610548 

Kelvin


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## Gary S (Dec 11, 2007)

I've run soundstream amps on and off for over 15 years, have a couple of reference 405s'. The Human Rein amps have similar specs on paper to the old ones but are really nothing like the Reference and similar series amps. Even the Rubicons were becoming just like 99% of all amps still on the market today, trimode clones of Rockford Fosgate amps. The Reference amps and other models of the period and earlier had identical left and right channels - that's not true of the vast majority of amps today.

That said, it probably does not matter much anymore - speaker distortion is usually much higher than amps unclipped - go look up a midrange driver distortion percentage spec and you will see what I mean - if you can find one.

I did not buy the Soundstream amps for sound quality, only for a feature - they were one of the few amps left on the market that I could do a Hafler hookup to and derive a difference signal for rear speakers (aka surround sound). That's the *only* reason I bought them.


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

Gary S said:


> That said, it probably does not matter much anymore - speaker distortion is usually much higher than amps unclipped - go look up a midrange driver distortion percentage spec and you will see what I mean - if you can find one.


Very true.

I´d say the first generation Rubicons (302, 702, Class A 5.2 / 10.2, Picasso / Renoir etc etc) are very good amps and I don´see any reason to say the Reference are superior. I like them all, from original Refs to Ref s/sx to first gen Rubicons. If I´d have to choose only one series, it´d probably be the first gen Rubicons.

It would be hard for me to choose between original Ref and Ref s / sx.
While the s / sx have more features, the originals are more reliable, but I wouldn´t want to live in a world where there would not be a Ref Picasso, which is of the s / sx series, the original Refs only had Class A 3.0 / 6.0 when it comes to high bias models, while the s / sx series had the Picasso besides the 5.0 and 10.0
The 6.0 is also a classic, love it on sub.
The earlier Class A50II and A100II are great also...
Sigh I guess I love them all.


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

I always wonder why Auto hifi never tested the Picasso. What amp are those board pics from.


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

Which board pics are you referring to ?

I know a car audio store over here (Netherlands, Europe) selling a new in box Human Reign.
Shipping would kill you, though (weight). Maybe need to take importation taxes into account, as well.


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

azvrt said:


> Which board pics are you referring to ?
> 
> I know a car audio store over here (Netherlands, Europe) selling a new in box Human Reign.
> Shipping would kill you, though (weight). Maybe need to take importation taxes into account, as well.


Pics of the Hifi PDF test subwoofery posted. I don't recall the layout looking as such. It's something I saw, no biggie.


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

Wasn't there also a 4 channel Human Reign ?

Better forget what I said, prices over here are sucky, besides shipping and possibly importation taxes. I see them on Ebay sometimes. You'd be much cheaper off buying them in the USA.


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## Gary S (Dec 11, 2007)

azvrt said:


> Wasn't there also a 4 channel Human Reign ?
> 
> .


 - If I remember correctly, the original Human Reign was 4-channel.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Blazemore said:


> Pics of the Hifi PDF test subwoofery posted. I don't recall the layout looking as such. It's something I saw, no biggie.


That layout is the first version of the Human Reign 2 channel amp. 
The new version (2009 I think) has a different layout... 

Kelvin


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

azvrt said:


> Wasn't there also a 4 channel Human Reign ?
> 
> Better forget what I said, prices over here are sucky, besides shipping and possibly importation taxes. I see them on Ebay sometimes. You'd be much cheaper off buying them in the USA.


Yes there was a four and a two channel. I'm probability mixing up the two layouts, it's been a few years since I handled both. 

If I did buy one it would be new HR4 as said by the OP. I'm not paying 1k plus for an original due the casting.


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

subwoofery said:


> That layout is the first version of the Human Reign 2 channel amp.
> The new version (2009 I think) has a different layout...
> 
> Kelvin


But the Human Reign Unleased was suppose to have the same layout from what I remember.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Blazemore said:


> But the Human Reign Unleased was suppose to have the same layout from what I remember.


Actually NO... It's supposed to have the same high end parts. 
Soundstream - Human Reign Amplifiers 


> You say you want one of the highest regarded amplifiers ever made. You say you don't want to spend bazillion dollars. You spoke and we listened. Human Reign amplifiers are back! The original series were very pricey due to the extraordinary heatsink. _The guts are the same high end parts you loved in the original, but now at about half the price!_


Kelvin


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Actually NO... It's supposed to have the same high end parts.
> Soundstream - Human Reign Amplifiers
> 
> 
> Kelvin


Kelvin have you heard the them?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

quietfly said:


> Kelvin have you heard the them?


Yep, my friend is using the 4 channel version as his reference in his shop. Should see the smile on customers face when they see that big "Ian Solo" face screaming coming out of the amp 

Kelvin


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## quietfly (Mar 23, 2011)

subwoofery said:


> Yep, my friend is using the 4 channel version as his reference in his shop. Should see the smile on customers face when they see that big "Ian Solo" face screaming coming out of the amp
> 
> Kelvin


How do they compare to other SQ amps? or better yet how do they compare to other amps in the same price range?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

quietfly said:


> How do they compare to other SQ amps? or better yet how do they compare to other amps in the same price range?


I'm not gonna compare it to other brands but I can tell you this: 
If you can get one of the first version and make it fit in your car, you'll have SQ for years, a really low noise floor and endless headroom that can easily fry your speaker if you turn your volume up too far... and will never feel the need to change to another amp. 
Is it worth it? It's up to the end user and his wallet 

Kelvin


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## rc10mike (Mar 27, 2008)

I have both the HRU.4 and HRU.2 in my car right now. 

Hands down my fav amps so far. Quiet, powerful, not to mention all black and sleek (IMO).

This is after selling all the JL HD, Zapco, Tru, JBL, DD, PPI (and some more) amps that Ive tried before. 

And yes I think $499 for the HRU.4 is a steal, considering they were (or at least tried) selling for $1800.00 back then.

And to confirm, the HR amps are the ones with the crazy zombie face heatsink, and the HRU are the newer all black ones. They have the same parts, just a simple heat sink to cut costs.


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## ChrisB (Jul 3, 2008)

azvrt said:


> The s ('96) and sx ('97) series had problems of their own. They introduced the 2.0 / 5.0 volt gain switches which are by far the worst. Again, spraying them with the right stuff and working them back and forth several times works most of the time.
> Since they did not want owners to damage the amps with the High Power / High Current issues, they introduced the automatic switch, which was said to be problematic in some cases. I can't confirm that myself.
> Also, for the sx series, they received a bad batch of parts, which made a very high percentage of amps burn up on the very first power up. This was a nuisance for owners and installers as they'd had to change it for an other amp, which in some cases would burn up as well. Those alive today are perfectly good amps. Don't buy them new in box without having the seller test them first !


Meh, don't even get me started on those GD switches because I hated them on my Reference 700SX. I sprayed DeoxIt on one after it started acting up and it fell apart as I was working it back and forth to try to clean it. As a result, I changed it and my biggest mistake was not changing the other one when I had the amp apart, because guess what happened to it? Several months down the road, it started acting up, sprayed DeoxIt in there, and it fell apart too. I ended up installing AND leaving that amp in my 1997 Civic when I sold it in April 2010.


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

rc10mike said:


> And to confirm, the HR amps are the ones with the crazy zombie face heatsink, and the HRU are the newer all black ones. They have the same parts, just a simple heat sink to cut costs.


That makes sense cause what I recall the old board layout etc of the HR was the same as (other than color) the HRU listed on SS website now and the gut pics posted here. It was more than just "Highend Parts" 

Edit:
Found a pic of the HR 










HRU from fourthmeal


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## Gary S (Dec 11, 2007)

Anybody ever see an amp with mylar or poly caps like this one?

Soundstream Rubicon Class A Picasso


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## Blazemore (Dec 1, 2006)

Gary S said:


> Anybody ever see an amp with mylar or poly caps like this one?
> 
> Soundstream Rubicon Class A Picasso


I think PPI Art did.


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

Gary S said:


> Anybody ever see an amp with mylar or poly caps like this one?
> 
> Soundstream Rubicon Class A Picasso


The Reference Picasso and Rubicon Renoir also have polypropylene caps.


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

I just picked up a 2.640 and a 1.1000 for a small install I am doing on my dd. I am really impressed with the build quality and I love how they are setup for balanced signal. Haven't got to install them yet, but am looking forward to it.

Running the 640 with the balanced signal too oldschool Diamond Audio HEX S600( eventually HAT Clarus C61) and the 1000 will be running two Image Dynamics IDQ12v3. I have a feeling I'll love the amps.


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

Don't forget to let us know what you think of them once you've had a good listen.


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

azvrt said:


> Don't forget to let us know what you think of them once you've had a good listen.


will do. Be coupe weeks before I have time for the install.


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## ToddG (Sep 14, 2010)

Yes, you will like that setup. My last "real" install was with a SS Rubi 604 (1st gen) running Diamind Hex s600 (original black cones and silk domes) and a SS Class 6.0 running 2 Infinity Beta 12s. I miss that setup (despite still having most of it - smoked the 6.0 after re-installing 10yrs later). The SS on the Diamonds is very detailed with very good midrange (vocals and brass instruments were killer)


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

ToddG said:


> Yes, you will like that setup. My last "real" install was with a SS Rubi 604 (1st gen) running Diamind Hex s600 (original black cones and silk domes) and a SS Class 6.0 running 2 Infinity Beta 12s. I miss that setup (despite still having most of it - smoked the 6.0 after re-installing 10yrs later). The SS on the Diamonds is very detailed with very good midrange (vocals and brass instruments were killer)


cool! Yeah and I actually broke down and bought a set of HAT Clarus last night. lol. Be interesting to compare the two sets of components on the same install and same amp.


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## cnut334 (Oct 17, 2009)

^^ How are you liking or disliking your Soundstreams?


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

cnut334 said:


> ^^ How are you liking or disliking your Soundstreams?


I have been extremely busy lately and have been using my spare time to dial in my competition car. SO I suck and have not done the other system yet 

BUT...I am going to compare it directly to a Zapco Ref 750.2. I think I am going to install the HAT Clarus passive first and test them on the Zapco and the Soundstream. So it should be a good comparison. But I can say that when I pulled the Soundstreams out of their boxes I was impressed. They look really nice and the build quality seems very good.

I also have a Zapco ref 300.2 that I plan to use for the tweets when I switch them to active. I am also now going to be using the new Pioneer EH-80prs HU instead of my Eclipse CD7000. So I am awaiting that to be released too. I'm trying to jump start this install because I am sick of driving the car with a **** stereo.


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## cnut334 (Oct 17, 2009)

Thanks! I'm thinking of pulling the trigger on one of these but am limited on space. I may get a rubicon to try out.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

darrenforeal said:


> I just picked up a 2.640 and a 1.1000 for a small install I am doing on my dd. I am really impressed with the build quality and I love how they are setup for balanced signal. Haven't got to install them yet, but am looking forward to it.Running the 640 with the balanced signal too oldschool Diamond Audio HEX S600( eventually HAT Clarus C61) and the 1000 will be running two Image Dynamics IDQ12v3. I have a feeling I'll love the amps.





darrenforeal said:


> I have been extremely busy lately and have been using my spare time to dial in my competition car. SO I suck and have not done the other system yet
> BUT...I am going to compare it directly to a Zapco Ref 750.2. I think I am going to install the HAT Clarus passive first and test them on the Zapco and the Soundstream. So it should be a good comparison. But I can say that when I pulled the Soundstreams out of their boxes I was impressed. They look really nice and the build quality seems very good


Yes, please do a product review and post it when you get time. Looking to see what others think. I have a REF1.500 and will pick up a REF2.640 to power my midbasses and sub. The amps really look the part and so far the REF1.500 was nice during the short time I played with it. And the amps just as look sweet or better than any of the older blue Streams. I have a Genesis SIII 4 channel for my top end so....I have high hopes! However, so far....they match the external look in terms of quality to the Genesis so that is a plus! In comparison, I got rid of my Clarion amps because they just did not look good next to the Genesis.


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

installed the soundstream ref and then switched in the zapco ref. to compare them. They were running my HAT Clarus passive for the comparison. I really like the Soundstream! I was using the balanced signal with the soundsteam line driver. And the zapco was running balanced signal as well.

The soundstream is clear, accurate and warm sounding. Warmer than the Zapco ref but almost as accurate and crisp. The zapco sounds a little bit more technical. The sub amp seems to do a nice job too. I didn't get much listening time and all these judgments were done with the EQ "flat" and the set run passive.

I am planning to run the system active and I have a zapco 350.2 to run the tweeters and the soundstream or the zapco ref was going to run the woofers. But I decided to stick with the zapco 750 to run the woofers instead of the soundstream. Just becasuse I want the front soundstage to have a matching amp setup. I'll either keep the soundstream and save it for another project, or sell it. But I dunno if I will. It sounds nice and is really cool looking too.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Hey, thanks for the feedback. Interesting that it has a warm character....that is how the Genesis is often described so it should be a good match. If you sell the REF2.640 let me know.


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

no problem! I may even hook it back up when I have some more time to get an even more thorough comparison. But I'll let you know if I decide to sell it.


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## soundboy (Jun 19, 2009)

I had some amp`s from Soundstream in 90`s..

Had them in this order:

1. 
Picasso (chrome) run for tweeter & 4,5" mids
Rubicon 502 run for subwoofer 2x 12" 
Alpine MRV-1000 (V12) for midbass 6.5"

Remember that time Alpine had more punch , was I feel and change this til sub and 502 for midbass.

2.
Picasso (chrome) run for tweeter & 4,5" mids
Continiuum run for midbass and sub

Was great setup and had this very long time

3.

DaVinci (made in usa 97) run for 4 way system with two BLT-4.

Is cool and great amp, perfect for them some looking for one amp to whole system. But feel the was low power to subwoofer channel here.. Could be bettere.
Not so good to run heavy subwoofer with low db spec.

4.
Two Human Reign4 , 4 channel amps. Them are extreme heavy And not looks bettere to have two of this in the car

Them was run for 3 way setup (complete Seas Lotus Ref), with last HR4 was run in 2 channel to one 10" subwoofer.
Had not BLT-4 in this case, could get pair of it but sold the amps before came so far. 
I dont remember right what headunit/dsp used here, was Sony XES-Z50 or Pioneer ODR RS-D7R + DEQ-P90!

HR4 sounds very good, nice headboom , much detail etc.




















This are in second place from Soundstream, the first place is first Picasso version, never hear so good amp for tweeter and small mids..

Have listen to Class A10.2 with Picasso, if remember rigth so sounds Picasso a little bit bettere , more clean.

Have also listen to other cars some run this:

*Honda Prelude - 4x Class A6.0 -> was rock on roll here..

*Opel Vectra 2.0CD - 3x Class A6.0 + 3x Ref500 (first version) -> sounds amazing, never forget

About this secound Human Reign amps from Soundstream, have never hear them, but for are them not Value of Human Reign modell... 

MOST have this pretty cool cover face

So if them not was so big and heavy will i still had them here today. Them weight of 18kg each!!!


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

here is some shots of the inside of the 2.640 if anyone is interested.


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## CrossFired (Jan 24, 2008)

Did you ever use any VGA series? I thought they were Fantastic!




azvrt said:


> I'll try and keep this short.
> 
> The original Reference amplifiers ('94 / '95) were very, very good amplifiers. Most common issues were mediocre solder joints on the perpendicular driver PCB's, causing channels to cut in and out.
> This can easily be solved if you're handy with a soldering iron.
> ...


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Looking real good in there.

I'm happy they went with the larger devices for the power supply and output devices.

The only older amps to have them are the Rubicon 1002 and 501/....and of course the corresponding Rubicon models that were released under the new ownership in the 2002 model year. 

Darren.....does the 2.640 have a fan installed?


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

CrossFired said:


> Did you ever use any VGA series? I thought they were Fantastic!


I have a VGA 600.2, unfortunately it has a malfunction and up till now nobody can help me get the schematics, so it's collecting dust until...

Since we are posting pictures, here are some of the amps that I have or had.

I can only post ten at a time, more coming.


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)




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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)




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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)




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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

Custom made Picasso from one of the refurbished boards I purchased.
Never finished the front... I'll have to do that someday, bit risky like this in the trunk, a small portion of the board being exposed.

I started making a second identical one. Haven't finished that one either.


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

An original Butler 750. This was made by Butler themselves, even before the Phaze Audio era which started real soon. They migh thave the exact same internals, I don't know.

That's it for now. I'll have some more pics in the near future if people are interested.


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

Forgot these.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Nice collection Azvrt.

I have to say your collection dwarfs my mine.

Funny....I just opened up 2 of my early 90's Alpine amps last night.....I forgot how impressive those things are inside....liberal use of the larger devices shocked me for relatively inexpensive amps.

I just wish I bought more of them back in the day....I always remembered the best on the Tweeter soundboard were the A/D/S and the Alpine....of course I believe in the car those differences disappear.

Alpine was more clinical sounding while the A/D/S was a bit warmer....closer to the Soundstream Class A series.

Azvrt....Do you know if the A/D/S/ were a biased A/B as the Soundstream Class A amps are?


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

Unfortunately not all of these are part of my collection as I have to sell some once in a while, can't keep them all.

I have never had an A/D/S amp I'm afraid.
Many of the older amps were biased amps. Soundstream just had a higher bias on some models, and I read somewhere they used diodes next to the resistors in the output section which resulted in gradual transistor shut off for a smoother sound, but the information could be wrong.

If you compare the board of a Ref 500 with a 6.0 you'll notice that's the main difference between the two. That and the fact that the 6.0 has a much higher bias and consequently higher idling current.

Ref 500:
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting
6.0
ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

Look for the black diodes next to each pair of resistors in the output section.
We once did a back to back comparison on subs with a Ref 500 and a 6.0
The Ref 500 is tighter / more acute / shorter in its impacts, while the 6.0 has a more gradual attack and decay which results in a rounder bass.

It's a matter of personal preference. A normal person's ear should prefer the less digital approach of the 6.0, but people are slowly turning into machines, looking at things solely from a scientific point of view, and from that point of view the Ref 500 might be more accurate. When it comes to music, thoughts should not come too much in the way of feelings, as music is meant to enjoy ourselves.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

azvrt said:


> If you compare the board of a Ref 500 with a 6.0 you'll notice that's the main difference between the two. That and the fact that the 6.0 has a much higher bias and consequently higher idling current.


When the Reference 500 was first released I bought 2 of them right off the bat based on power output...but the overall package looked strikingly similar....even down to the same value 40A Maxi fuse.

It wasn't until I saw the board of the 6.0 and I figured the diodes were the only differences....but I'm not an EE type so I wasn't sure if they were neccesary based on the _*"Class A"*_ operation.....I never bought into that *Class A* BS in a car amp however even if the 2 models are a bit different sounding.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

darrenforeal said:


> here is some shots of the inside of the 2.640 if anyone is interested.


Cool pics! I hope to have one myself soon...three for sale on this forum....but no transaction yet.:surprised:


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## darrenforeal (Jan 14, 2011)

GlasSman said:


> L
> 
> Darren.....does the 2.640 have a fan installed?


I didn't see one. Maybe there is a small one on the heatsink side. i'll look again.


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

GlasSman said:


> I never bought into that *Class A* BS in a car amp however even if the 2 models are a bit different sounding.


It's your loss as you've missed some great amplifiers, if that's the case. Of course the Class A thing was nonsense as they simply are not Class A amplifiers, but what's important to the USER is that they sound better. Users shouldn't think to much, the thinking should be done by the designers. You're a smart guy and I know you were not only a user but also part of the selling process but in this case being smart worked against you. If you avoided the fake Class A amps you missed out on some great amplifiers such as the Class A Picasso's and many, many others. I do work on amplifiers but I always do my best to remain an user.
Too much thinking can get in the way of passion, which is not desirable.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

azvrt said:


> It's your loss as you've missed some great amplifiers, if that's the case. Of course the Class A thing was nonsense as they simply are not Class A amplifiers, but what's important to the USER is that they sound better. Users shouldn't think to much, the thinking should be done by the designers. You're a smart guy and I know you were not only a user but also part of the selling process but in this case being smart worked against you. If you avoided the fake Class A amps you missed out on some great amplifiers such as the Class A Picasso's and many, many others. I do work on amplifiers but I always do my best to remain an user.
> Too much thinking can get in the way of passion, which is not desirable.


Well I wasn't 100% against the Class A amps.

I just couldn't afford all the toys I wanted.....I got my Reference 500's and I was happy with them.

I heard a few cars with a few 3.0 and 6.0 amps and while they sounded great and just a touch better than my car.... I couldn't justify spending more on amps when I have other hobbies....drums are expensive.

By the time I started collecting the Rubicon and Reference amps I found that the regular lines were easier to get at crazy low prices in _*MINT*_ condition with boxes so I stuck with those.

Now the market seems to be depleted so the Class A amps are next on my list once I get back into amp buying mode.


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## azvrt (Nov 11, 2010)

Then you did the right thing, as the Class A amps usually were (and still are) much more expensive than the non-Class A's, in used condition, so if you got your amps in great condition for a great price it would have been silly to pay a lot more for a little more SQ and less power.

I'd say stick to the 3.0 / 6.0 as they are very reliable contrary to the 10.0 and maybe even 10.2
The Reference Picasso and Rubicon Renoir/Picasso are also highly recommended for SQ purposes.


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## GlasSman (Nov 14, 2006)

Do these new Reference amps have fuses? I don't see any on the boards.

Possibly some type of protection? 

I looked in the owners manual and they mention nothing.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

No on board fuses, external fuses required. The A/B amps have a PROTECT led on the top and the Mono's have a LOW RAIL, CLIP, and PROTECT led on the top. So, these are modern amps that protect against dead shorts and such. Looking at the TROUBLESHOOTING section of the manual an amber PROTECT led can indicate too low ohms load, over temp, or speaker short.


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