# Check out pix, let me know what you think



## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

After some 3 years of picking drivers I think I am good to go with fiberglassing. The LPG might be changed with lcy 110 but I gotta get the doors done before I start with pillars. 

I was thinking of getting the Seas ligned up as much as possible on-axis, and everthing centered about midline inbetween driver and passanger. The biggest factor here is played by the Neo8 which I can't angle (the passanger one) perfectly to the driver so a more symetrical option seems like the way to go (center of car, rather than evertything towards the driver).

Height wise it would be best to point everything at the roof right? the higher the better?

Since I've never fiberglassed before I need some serious pointers on how to do this.


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## azngotskills (Feb 24, 2006)

Damn man...thats gonna look crazy when its done. As far as stage goes, i would think that you would want it in front of you as if you were at a concert and not too high. Make sure everything is exactly where you want it before you start fiberglassing, take your time, and do it in sections. There are a few how-tos in the sub forum


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

IMO..

move the seas to the kicks, and xls up front more.

Why nto do both the LPGs and Neo 8s in the pillars?


and the rear stage scares me....that thing is goign to be a tuners nightmare.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

azngotskills said:


> Damn man...thats gonna look crazy when its done. As far as stage goes, i would think that you would want it in front of you as if you were at a concert and not too high. Make sure everything is exactly where you want it before you start fiberglassing, take your time, and do it in sections. There are a few how-tos in the sub forum


Imo it sounds best ear level too, basically how it is know, maybe a tad higher.
I did look up some how-tos but they are mostly for sub boxes, how will it be diff. for doors?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

bdubs767 said:


> IMO..
> 
> move the seas to the kicks, and xls up front more.
> 
> ...


I cannot do kicks because I drive stick; stick still worth it lol  I don't need the xls upfront do I? it's only running 200hz-63hz

I don't think I can do Neo8s in pillars...too big and my pillars are way steep. I was thinking of doing the Lcys hanging from the pillars...just above Neo8-more coherence. 

What's up with the rear stage? It's off 99% of the time, I only turn it on when I have passangers, even then 225w is not louder than the 825w I feed my front stage.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

by the way I just tried a box calculator on my Seas Excel. If I make a very tiny box for them, like 1.5L or .05 cubic feet sealed than I gain about 2.5 max db around the 200hz area where I HP them. This should sound good right, I mean everybody says these have a super low qtc so I loose low end in free air like I have them now.

All I need is to find specs on those xls now.


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## NaamanF (Jan 18, 2006)

I think you could really simplify everything by choosing the mid and high you like and making it a two way system. Then move the high of choice to the A pillars.


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## strong*I*bumpin (Oct 3, 2005)

NaamanF said:


> I think you could really simplify everything by choosing the mid and high you like and making it a two way system. Then move the high of choice to the A pillars.


X2,I would do a large format tweet in the Pillars.The Seas look nice they way u got 'em.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

This beats every 2way I've tried...It sound like I have my homeaudio loudspeakers inside the car but with far more refined sound. I will NOT go back to 2 way. This is far superior in every way.


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

Want an honest truth?
with the bg8s there, the panels look really tacky
how exactly do you run a 4 way up front?
2 separate crossovers?
I'd like to hear it though


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

I'm at a loss for words.

-aaron


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Seems cool to me, but it would be a tuners nightmare....i'd personally move the excel into the kicks in a small enclosure or sorta IB, have them run down to the xls' and whatever up top, 4way front is a little over the top, and driver spacing on the fr range would be too too close i'd think. But this is different.


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## vwtoby (Oct 28, 2005)

is that a photoshop??? wow...


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## legend94 (Mar 15, 2006)

ive never seen anything like it before


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## legend94 (Mar 15, 2006)

edit:
i have to show this to my wife and she will think im conservative


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> I cannot do kicks because I drive stick; stick still worth it lol  I don't need the xls upfront do I? it's only running 200hz-63hz


imaging from frequencies <500hz are determined by ITD's and above 1khz by IID's... sooooo technically you want the xls as far from you as possible (kicks) to minimize PLD's. so yea, those xls should be moved where you're excels are, where they could meet the BG's then the lpg's. i honestly dont see how you can successfully pull off a 4way front with such little installation flexibility.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

IMO, its way overkill. i dunno looking at your sig you got speakers all over the place. 4 way up front again is overkill. do a simple 3 way up front and that should be sufficient.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

NaamanF said:


> I think you could really simplify everything by choosing the mid and high you like and making it a two way system. Then move the high of choice to the A pillars.


No way. There isn't a two-way out there that can touch the XLS's in terms of midbass response. You just can't do it.

IMO, and I know this goes against the grain in this forum, 3-way setups with the properly chosen speakers are almost always superior to their 2-way counterparts, and aren't nearly as difficult to tune as people like to say.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> No way. There isn't a two-way out there that can touch the XLS's in terms of midbass response. You just can't do it.
> 
> IMO, and I know this goes against the grain in this forum, 3-way setups with the properly chosen speakers are almost always superior to their 2-way counterparts, and aren't nearly as difficult to tune as people like to say.



Not everyone runs (2)DCX's constantly attached to a carputer  

Chad


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## Wild Child (Feb 16, 2006)

Why do you need the LPG's if your gonna use the Neo 8?

Why do you need such a large ribbon? Those Seas should be able to get up to 2k pretty easy.

Hows the stageing on xls's? They sound like there coming from the up-front, if so, i wouldn't worry w/ moving them.

I do like your system, most def original. Keep us informed.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

No offense, but everything looks counterproductive.

Midrange in doors, Midbass just about behind you, tweeters on a downward angle...all drivers spread apart like, front and side of the listener must be a phasing nightmare.

Many drivers work GREAT off axis in the kicks, you do not have to build some huge angled pods. A slight 20-30degree angle is all you need at times.

Its just a shame though that you've mangled your door panels. I dont see any severe amount of tuning pulling that together unless you just want a loud system with poor staging.


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

I'm relatively speechless - and that's a rarity...

(checks calendar, not April 1...hmmm)

Just an FYI, I've had kicks in my car for a while with no issues, and it's a stick


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

chad said:


> Not everyone runs (2)DCX's constantly attached to a carputer
> 
> Chad


Fair enough.  But even when I used to run three-ways with the amp's internal crossovers, you could get them tuned the first day. Further modifications over time improved matters, but there's something to be said for the increased output capabilities, potentially broader band frequency response (given proper driver selection), and coolness factor of a three way.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

MarkZ said:


> Fair enough.  But even when I used to run three-ways with the amp's internal crossovers, you could get them tuned the first day. Further modifications over time improved matters, but there's something to be said for the increased output capabilities, potentially broader band frequency response (given proper driver selection), and coolness factor of a three way.



Or the coolness of having a door that you can fit 3 speakers into 

Chad


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## ocuriel (Oct 7, 2005)

WOW! Did a ninja attack you with bg neo8's?  kidding. You have very nice gear. I do agree, it is a little overkill though.


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## Soundsaround (Apr 22, 2006)

Perhaps another option for the Neo8s would be to put them where your window switches are currently. You could just move the switch plates to the sides of the same downward sloping panel that they're in now. Not sure how that would sound, and you'd probably have to use your thumb to operate your switches, but the lines of the panel will flow smoother that way.

I usually think that simpler is often better as many have stated, but in some cases it's also not nearly as much fun. Isn't breakin' the rules part of our DIY mentality anyway?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Why this 4 way:

LPGs have the best top end sparkle period (never tried lcy 110, that's why they are still on the table). Below 4k these tweeter blow imo, that's when they get the nasty metal/distortion sound to them. These were meant to run as a supertweeter period, no instal crossed below 4k sound good to me.

Neo8 is the secret to success, these guys reproduce the spectrum most speakers on the market stress about, it's the perfect transition driver. I don't cross it lower than 1.5k because the freq. response graph starts to dip there, and I would also loose a lot of spl. It has a nasty peak at 12k so it can't be used as a tweeter unless you do serious eq work, and they can't match lpg's in top end sparkle.

Besides, who doesn't like Seas Excell mids for 200hz-1500hz...they sound like a dream there, and I get to use EX version because I have lots of midbass output from the next driver.

Peerless xls 8 need I say more. The healthiest midbass driver out there. 99% of the cars out there don't have enough midbass for me, I can always tell when a sub is crossed at 80hz, and it doesn't sound pretty to me.

Driver selection is best:
1. it sounds like the best combo too me
2. I can get a flat frequency response without eq. if I do this install right
3. Insane spl, I can finally match my substage
4. I can lift up the stage as much as I want by moving supertweeter around.
5. All drivers blend extremly well, all metal transparent drivers down to 200hz.
6. real good coherence, very little spacing in between drivers 200-20000, not more than 2 inches!
7. It's nuts: 4 way, 4(right? Germany, US, Norway, Danmark) countries of origin for drivers yet blend super good


All I've done so far is pick drivers remember. My doors went through 3 years of chopping just to pick drivers...worthy loss imo. It looks tacky, my doors don't close well, etc. It is however temporary.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Keep at it, you sound like you know what your doing, lots of planning, and it can end up being very very good. Keep at it though, even though it is counterproductive to do what you have, if done right and with taste, it could end up extreemly nice, Extreemly.


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

but hey if you are happy by all means man but i still think it's very unnecessary. i have a 6th gen as well and when the midrange was in doors, the staging was way too forward. once i got some midranges and moved it to the kicks, it was a whole different story. made a world of a difference. i'm mostly curious how is your staging and imaging?


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Thanks for all the input and for being honest. I am aware that I don't have a clue of how to fiberglass and that not many have done such silly things to their cars. It might be a complete failure but I can't stop befor I even start. I need to see it work or collapse in front of me 

Most of you guys are worried about the xls being too close. To be honest I can't localize the xls most of the times unless stuff is vibrating inside the door. All I know is that the idmax extends below them just perfectly and I feel like bass is all around.

Some asked about xovers:

lpg 5k HP from amp xover -----40w
Neo8 5k LP from amp xover; 1.5k ppi x3 stand alone xover---75w
Seas Excel 1.5k LP ppi xover; 200 HP amp xover---150w
Xls 200 LP amp; 63 HP Eclipse headunit ---150w
IDMAX 63 LP Eclipse headunit ---550w

I also gave wattage per driver.


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## ocuriel (Oct 7, 2005)

cvjoint said:



> Thanks for all the input and for being honest. I am aware that I don't have a clue of how to fiberglass and that not many have done such silly things to their cars. It might be a complete failure but I can't stop befor I even start. I need to see it work or collapse in front of me
> 
> Most of you guys are worried about the xls being too close. To be honest I can't localize the xls most of the times unless stuff is vibrating inside the door. All I know is that the idmax extends below them just perfectly and I feel like bass is all around.


The choice of gear is great. You need to find a better location for the bg's or perhaps changed them out for the aura or hivi's 3" domes. This way you can maybe flush mount it to the door panel. 

The window switch idea is also a great one.


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## Wild Child (Feb 16, 2006)

Well that makes more sense to me now that you have explained how your gonna use the drivers together and why, I'd like to hear that thing.

What I would do for the Neo 8's is:

1. make a wood frame to mount the driver on and postion it in the door like you want the speaker aimed

2. tape the door up and make the base of the eclosure(the part touching the door), you can make it a little big and cut/sand it down to the size you want. This step is important, so take your time and make it right. This wil help you create your shape. I prefer the weave mat, as its the strongest.

3. Pick a thin fleece and stretch around the (frame) to create a 3D figure. After it drys add a second layer of FG mat to the inside for strength.

4. Sand and bondo down to at least 200 grit to vinyl.


May not be the best way to do it, but by judging your pics, it should work well.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

CVJoint, keep up the good work. Your driver selection and rationale is good, IMO. You're right about the XLS8's, and nothing that I know of can compete AND go high enough in frequency to replace them without suffering a downgrade. However, I think you might be able to get away with a slightly smaller version of the Excel if you needed to make room somewhere. And I agree with others' suggestions of considering other drivers to replace the Neos if needed -- the Aura would work, as would most dome mids. Basically, I'd just work on the cosmetics at this point. You may even want to consider grills for the door speakers.


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## dawgdan (Aug 10, 2006)

Major, major props for originality. Reminds me of an amateur rock climber setting out for Mount Everest.  When you do finish this beast, it'll be wild.

I'm thinking that starting the panels over from scratch might be your best bet. Make a reverse mold of the pieces of your door you want to keep and use expanding foam and Bondo to make a totally wild custom panel. 

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/pdfs/Tutorials/MERA_2003.pdf


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2006)

I must say I have never seen anything quite like that, but cosmetic nightmare aside, I think for your choice of drivers already been made, you have them positioned quite well.
A couple things:


> all metal transparent drivers down to 200hz


the BG is a Kaladex diaphram, not metal. Not really an issue, but I thought I would clarify that for you (no pun intended  )


> I don't cross it lower than 1.5k because the freq. response graph starts to dip there


1) That is free space, dipole radiation. Wedged into the doors is anything but 4pi, more like 2pi (or less, depending on frequency).
2) It would be highly undesirable to leave the rear wave unattenuated. If you are going to enclose the rear radiation (recommended), this will extend the low frequency performance substantially and widen the lateral dispersion.
I would cross the Neo8 at more like 800hz to achieve a better correlation with the Excel.
Other than that, your xo points and layout are just dandy. I wouldn't do it in my car for aesthetic and other reasons, but that's not my car, is it?  
Post some pics on final install. Good luck.

cheers,

AJ


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

ocuriel said:


> The choice of gear is great. You need to find a better location for the bg's or perhaps changed them out for the aura or hivi's 3" domes. This way you can maybe flush mount it to the door panel.
> 
> The window switch idea is also a great one.


I've tried a 3" dome before-the Vifa. I did not like the sound of that at all, it sounded awfully muddy and colored. The PDR is transparent and has a "bigger" sound to it. Not to mention 3 inch domes look worse.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Wild Child thanks. I'll check back to this after I get all my raisin and stuff.

MarkZ I don't want a smaller version, here again the "big sound" is what I want, I got the EX just for the edge in spl.

Dawgdan...thanks  yeah really aiming high right now

Aj "The extremely light Kaladex® diaphragm with an etched planar aluminum conductor is suspended in a magnetic field and is uniformly driven by the electromagnetic force providing accurate and immediate reproduction of the input signal. " I took this as being aluminum he he what is kaladex anyways?
and...what is PI...I know ...noob. The pdr is covered on the back.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2006)

Kaladex is a polyester.
pi is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. 4pi is a description of free (spherical) space. The surface area of a sphere is 4pi(r^2)
Something like if you were outside and climbed on a ladder with the raw speaker held above your head and you measured it.








The speaker would be in the center of the sphere above. There are no boundaries to interfere with its output. If you intersect the sphere with a plane (cut it in half), you have 2pi space (1/2 the surface area).
Your door/window is that plane (never mind the floor,ceiling, etc. for right now). Your driver is radiating the same amount of acoustic power into less space.
Bottom line is this. If you measured your Neo8 as mounted in the door & with the rear radiation enclosed, you would see a completely different response than what you think you have, with _much_ greater low end extension due to boundary reinforcement and no dipole cancellation. 800hz should be no problem whatsover, even when driven hard.
Sonically you can then decide which you prefer. 1.5k is _way_ too high IMHO. That is not efficient utilization of that drivers bandwith.

cheers,

AJ


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

OK, I did not read through all of the post so I don't know what all had been said but, I will say it....










That looks like a lot of SH_T in those doors! So much nice equipment but terrible execution. I am by no means an expert on car audio but if you plan to put in that much effort there are other proven routes to take. I mean...many have done non-ordinary thing and have had GREAT results but...

If you were to ask anyone who has done SQ car audio for awhile about the best place to mount drivers...I bet none would say mount the mid-bass at the back of the doors!
The goal is to get the drivers as far away from you as possible.

I say STOP right now and consult with a SQ veteran on a redesign.

How about the midbass foward in the doors? The BG's in the kicks or on the dash? ??? Maybe just a set of 8" Excels and some tweets? I don't know...

Just my $1.00 worth....


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

OK, I read through the previous posts. I see why you chose the speakers but I think the mounting option are limited as is with that many drivers upfront. You say you don't want to do kicks because you drive a stick? What if you could get them farther forward and further inwards at the sides of the car?

Would you think that an 8" SEAS EXCEL, a 3" FOCAL UTOPIA Be could fit in the kicks and not protrude too much...and even wrap around to the front of the car?

Here are some pics of what is possible. The car is a Ford Contour SVT 5-speed that belongs to Anthony Davis. This is his new build...I think he won't mind....I was blown away at the new kicks...They protrude much less than the older kicks that housed just the single 8" Excel. The 3" point more towards the listener.










If it were me, I would try to get the midbasses in the forward location, a 4.5" or 5" mid(Excel?)in the kick, and the tweeter more forward on the a-pillar.

You say you can't localize the midbasses? Have you tried to turn the subs down and listed to some music that has bass lines, syth that goes up and down from subbass to midbass? Does the image wander from midbasses to sub? Is the bass line locked in front?

I guess I am not sure what you are after in terms of sound reproduction? Would have at least tried something like this with the NEO8's before hacking up the doors like that:


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## thadman (Mar 1, 2006)

AJinFLA is correct about the Neo8s response. It is measured dipole, and (assuming the driver is around 4-5" wide) the waves will combined in phase 1 octave below the wavelength of the baffle (the face of the driver acts as a baffle). This is why the driver rolls off below 1500hz in dipole (the measured response), it is easily capable of going MUCH lower if you controlled the backwave (ive heard of people using this driver down to 400-500hz).

Personally, if I were in your current situation I would toss one of your drivers and go with a 3-way.

a pair of Dayton RS225s (Dayton RS270s would be awesome if you could fit em) would transition perfectly to the BG Neo8s. (eliminates need for XLS, W18EX, and BG Neo8)

-or- You could go with a large format tweeter and use its HF beaming as an advantage by minimalizing cabin reflections  The Peerless HDS 1" comes to mind.


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## Bob (Aug 16, 2005)

I agree with what alot of the other people have said on looks, but as for sound I think it's really all about experimentation, and overall, what you think. If you took the time to experiment with all the different locations and thats what came out sounding the best for you, great. No amount of sq philosophy on speaker positioning and aiming can account for every variable out there, and at the end of the day it comes down to experimentation to find out what sounds best, in your car, for you. 
I think if you can manage to get it to look good and if everything sounds good, you have a pretty nice install.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

AJ I agree with you that with the back closed there is a noticeable difference in the low end response. I like it much better not to mention the sound is more focused.

Now the Excel and the Neo can both cover the 800-1.5k region just as well right? The way I see it is lifting the stage vs. more spl. I would seriously decrease the power handling of the neo's wouldn't I? could they still handle the 75w I'm feeding them?

It's kinda nice that they are polyester too...I was thinking If I ever get fed up with metal speakers I can change the lpg to the nfa and the excel to the nextel cone without even modifying my doors.


WLDock you guys are sq veterans...and quite honestly the only ones I can get too. Where would I go Tweeter? I missed the last dyma meeting in so cal and no one will make one before winter break so this is the only way to get good info.

Now...the 8 excel sounds good but: low end extension is probably not as good as the xls, nor can I pound 300w into one if I feel like it. The 6.5 is probably moore suitable to handle stuff over 500hz, it has a lighter cone and I don't have to mount it exactly on axis to cover the high range.

The mounting: back of the door was all my ideea. I only chose that spot because it was the only way I could mount it to test it without fiberglassing. If I were to fiberglass I would probably push the SEas as far as I can and place the xls right next to it and build the door forward to fit it. This is what a lot of folks here advised. Second I thought it was more important to move them to opposite ends (left and right) more so than forward. I remember seeing people mounting mini subs in the rear doors as a better ideea than the 6x9 oppenings for the rear speakers on the decks. The reason was the 6x9 were closer toghether.

As far as kickpanel, far down low locations go...I drive stick I can't fit the Neo there, let alone woofers. Second I've heard such setups and the passanger covers up almost all the right stage from you...not good at all. Third, in Anthony's setup you decrease left-right distance by moving mids towards the center. The setup is however much cleaner than anything I can make up of my mess. I noticed he has no foot rest either. In my install something like that will be mutch further back and the sound would bounce off the center divider as mine is much higher. It would virtualy separate left and right stage.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Wow thanks for all the help, it's awsome that almost every time I come here there is somebody willing to give his 2 cents.

Thadman if I were to replace the 18EX and the xls it would probably be with the 8 inch excell. I'm using the daytons in the rear and they proved to be lacking almost everywhere when compared to the high end seas. But I see what you guys are saying cross Neo 8 low and use just an 8 inch driver for transition purposes-- a viable option.

As far as large format tweeter I am considering replacing the lpg with the lcy 110 if I manage to learn the skills of fiberglassing.

Bob I feel you. I whish I can get these guys to hear my car. It doesn't sound half as bad as it looks. I've heard numerous profesional focal utopia instals in the past and 2 and 3 ways and mine just does more about everywhere.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

thadman said:


> a pair of Dayton RS225s (Dayton RS270s would be awesome if you could fit em) would transition perfectly to the BG Neo8s. (eliminates need for XLS, W18EX, and BG Neo8)


I hate to sound like a broken record here, but quite frankly, the RS225 sucks in comparison to the XLS for midbass duty. Anyone who is suggesting that he scrap the XLS in favor of a midrange driver is basically saying they think it would be better for him to downgrade his audio system. The midbass driver, even if it's not in the ideal location, is not the problem with his system. In fact, he's probably got better midbass capabilities than 90% of the people on this forum.

As for the location, it's not that bad at all. He's looking at 200Hz and down. That's only about an octave higher than what people tend to run their subs at, which are usually run in mono and located several feet behind you with a large thick partition in between. There isn't THAT much more spatial information in that band to justify scrapping the drivers. As long as there isn't any major occlusion going on (I don't know how high his seats are), it's probably fine. The off-axis response should be comparable between both drivers and the ITD is probably not throwing the whole system out of whack, as some of you would have him believe. Even if those things ARE problems for some reason, I think the better (and easier) solution would be signal processing.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2006)

I largely agree with Mark ... the midbass choice and location is not the biggest issue, by far. Each midbass driver needs to generate a significant ITD in order to reproduce stage width, and those locations will suffice ... if the doors can be kept from rattling & vibrating with that much potential midbass energy, of course  However ... no signal processing will introduce an ITD for a single driver, if the speakers are placed where no ITD exists to start with 

The biggest issue I see is the Neo8 location ... it's just too close to the passengers to create a reasonable width, and more significantly ... depth, of stage for both passengers (if that matters to you). I would experiment more with the Neo8's farther forward ... and remember that height cues don't begin until about ~2-4kHz.

Sorry if any of this is redundant ... I didn't read the whole thread  Have you really exhausted all experimentation with Neo8's in the kicks, and tweets (or supertweets, if you will) far forward in the A-Pillars?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

werewolf said:


> Sorry if any of this is redundant ... I didn't read the whole thread  Have you really exhausted all experimentation with ribbons in the kicks, and tweets (or supertweets, if you will) far forward in the A-Pillars?


I was half expecting to see a shameless plug for your kick panel thread somewhere in there.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2006)

nah ... i totally agree it's all about experimenting, and what matters most to you


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I feel like a noob again ITD=? 

The xls will be sealed from the inside of the door since the whole assembly rattles at high volumes and no dynamating can do. I will try to get .75 ft3 and try it sealed and ported to see the difference. Like I said I can move the xls next to the Excel as much as I can.

The pdr runs 1.5khz to 5khz. I like it there because it is high, and I will try to place the lcy 110 right above it . The Neo is not as close to me as it seems, the driver one is almost 3 feet away from me. I might lower the xover point to 1khz per your guys recc. and see how that sounds. I love to have the stage 1khz and above this high. And again no kicks guys, I can't do em.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2006)

ITD = Interaural Time Difference

Even in it's simplest form, spatial reproduction with 2-channel stereo is a complex 2x2 matrix ... two speakers (L/R) and two ears. Of course it gets more complicated quickly with more drivers per L/R channel. The only way to understand it fully, is to appreciate how the ear localizes a _single_ driver, operating over a limted frequency range, in a _single_ channel first 

We recognize the location of a single midbass driver in the left/right plane by processing the different arrival times "measured" (by our brains) between our two ears. The amplitude differences are just too small (if you are a reasonable distance from the drivers), the wavelengths are just too long for our head or outer ears to influence amplitudes at our two ears. Hence, ITD's are important for midbass.

At higher frequencies, "head shadowing" begins to play a role ... and wavlengths become smaller than our heads, giving rise to phase confusion ... hence Interaural Intensity Differences (IID) are used as location cues. At even higher frequencies, the shape of the outer ear helps to allow localization in the vertical plane.

This is a BIG topic ... more later.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2006)

WLDock said:


> OK, I read through the previous posts. I see why you chose the speakers but I think the mounting option are limited as is with that many drivers upfront. You say you don't want to do kicks because you drive a stick? What if you could get them farther forward and further inwards at the sides of the car?
> 
> Would you think that an 8" SEAS EXCEL, a 3" FOCAL UTOPIA Be could fit in the kicks and not protrude too much...and even wrap around to the front of the car?
> 
> ...


... and the word on the street is that Anthony Davis' new build not only looks great, but sounds _phenomenal_ ... both spatially and tonally


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> The xls will be sealed from the inside of the door since the whole assembly rattles at high volumes and no dynamating can do. I will try to get .75 ft3 and try it sealed and ported to see the difference. Like I said I can move the xls next to the Excel as much as I can.


What assembly? What exactly is rattling? If you can get the space you need sealed, then you're all set, but if you want to run IB, you might be able to pull it off with enough mass added. In my 6th gen Accord I was able to effectively eliminate ALL rattling of any kind from the doors running RS225's - but as Mark put, there's probably a significant difference in driver output where the XLS's are rattling things I haven't even looked in to.



> And again no kicks guys, I can't do em.


Again, owning the same car, I really don't understand how you couldn't pull off this:








with some creativity. You'd have to relocate the hood release handle and?...

I dunno, I didn't read everything. If it sounds good to you, **** it, don't touch it 

GL

-aaron


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

the sheet metal itself is dead. I have 4 layers of dynamat arround the xls and one on the inside, acoustic foam and everything. The mechanic assembly that moves my windows up and down rattle and the metal that pulls the latch to open the doors. The peerless is a beast, I have to change window regulators once a year  

If I were to relocate hood release then I guess I could fit the Neo 8 in there, but no way I could fit one of the woofers and I wouldn't downgrade to a 5inch mid. I prefere a focused stage more than a deep one if that makes any sense so I prefer the Neo8s on top. Besides my tweeter will only run 4 or 5k and above. Wouldn't that sound kinda separated, I'm guessing at times sound will only come from the bottom. Not to mention If I get a passanger the Neo will be covered.


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## bdubs767 (Apr 4, 2006)

I say you'd be better of dumping both the neo8 and seas excel 7"....then use a 4" driver like scan 12m or seas w12 either of these drivers will sound great and be able to play down to the 200hz the xls are crossed at and high enough to blend with the LPGs. just MO adn can I say HOW MUCH EASIER IT WILL BE to get everything right.


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## kappa546 (Apr 11, 2005)

he likes the w18ex for its sensitivity but there are plenty of smaller drivers that will get just as loud. ie: 5.5" peerless exclusive or older audax hm130z0 but those are hard to find now after the PE sale


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2006)

cvjoint said:


> the sheet metal itself is dead. I have 4 layers of dynamat arround the xls and one on the inside, acoustic foam and everything. The mechanic assembly that moves my windows up and down rattle and the metal that pulls the latch to open the doors. The peerless is a beast, I have to change window regulators once a year
> 
> If I were to relocate hood release then I guess I could fit the Neo 8 in there, but no way I could fit one of the woofers and I wouldn't downgrade to a 5inch mid. I prefere a focused stage more than a deep one if that makes any sense so I prefer the Neo8s on top. Besides my tweeter will only run 4 or 5k and above. Wouldn't that sound kinda separated, I'm guessing at times sound will only come from the bottom. Not to mention If I get a passanger the Neo will be covered.


No, the sound will not sound separated by running the high-mounted tweets from 4~5kHz and up. You'll have coherent voice reproduction, and stage height (cues only really start at this frequency) will be much better. The world's experts on A-Pillar tweets recommend a crossover right around this range ... and they've built, and listened to, some of the best sounding cars in the world  And yes ... they know state-of-the-art sound reproduction when they hear it.

Remember that below about 4kHz ... certainly below 2kHz ... the ear has no mechanism for locating stage height. The dimensions of the outer ear ... which is the only mechanism that has a _chance_ for localizing height ... are just too small to influence longer wavelengths.

BY ALL MEANS ... before you start glassing those Neo8's in the doors ... at least promise to EXPERIMENT by putting them farther forward, without worrying about their location in the vertical plane. Won't cost a thing, you've got nothing to lose


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2006)

By the way ... you'll notice that I'm not recommending that you change a single driver. Keep everything you've got, right where you've got them for now (though I might move the tweets to the A-Pillars) ... except those Neo8's. Just play with them in the kicks ... like that beautiful photo above ... and listen for dimensionality improvements in the stage. You might just like what you hear


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2006)

A bit of elaboration, if I may. If we assume, for the moment, that I'm right ... that height cues don't start until about 4kHz, certainly nothing below 2kHz ... this implies that any sound sources playing below 2~4kHz cannot be easily (if at all) llocalized in the _vertical_ plane. In other words, drivers playing below 2kHz can be physically moved in the vertical plane, without ability for the ear to discriminate. Why, then, would it be necessary for them to be physically close to drivers playing about 2~4kHz? The only argument may be one of arrival times ... but that's easily fixed by small time delay available in a variety of car audio processors nowadays.

The psychology of hearing is simply this : Our hearing mechanisms perform a wonderful little trick, all the time in our daily experience : frequency ranges that are _not_ readily localized in certain dimensions become "attached" to those that are. The tweets up high are all you need to bring the stage up ... with no sacrifice in coherence, since the frequency ranges _below_ the treble are not vertically localizable ... up _or_ down.

Put the tweets ... and _only_ the tweets ..up high. For all your ears can tell, _all_ the frequencies will be coming from up high ... because the ears have no way of sensing anything different. Hence, no loss in coherence.

Make sense? It should ... assuming you accept my premise about what freqs are localizable in the vertical plane 

Now left/right ... that's another story altogether!

You've got no excuse to resist zero-cost experimentation


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

werewolf said:


> Remember that below about 4kHz ... certainly below 2kHz ... the ear has no mechanism for locating stage height. The dimensions of the outer ear ... which is the only mechanism that has a _chance_ for localizing height ... are just too small to influence longer wavelengths.


Yeah? You haven't seen cvjoint's ears!


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2006)

lol


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

MarkZ said:


> Yeah? You haven't seen cvjoint's ears!


No no..It's true. I got HUGE ears... wait, are you talking about my Neo ears 


So basically I have to lower xover point to 4k inbetween lpg and Neo. and place the later in the kickpanel area. 

I didn't know at what point stage hight becomes a factor, but if you say 4k than I will atempt this but I have a couple concerns:

Neo8 does not sound as good off axis. Another factor will be wheter I can orient them perfectly to the listener wich isn't that big of a deal with current position but might be with kicks

The Neo WILL be covered by a passanger in the kicks, it's hard enough to live without the Seas mid.

Moving the lpg in the pillars posses some issues too:

My pillars are way slanted, it would actually bring the tweeter very close to me. Is that an issue? 

If I change to lcy 110 it will be hard to do A-pillar mount since the ribbon is so large and it will take away a huge chunk of my visibility. I was thinking to build some pods and litteraly hang them from the pillar in the spot where the lpg is.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> Neo8 does not sound as good off axis. Another factor will be wheter I can orient them perfectly to the listener wich isn't that big of a deal with current position but might be with kicks...The Neo WILL be covered by a passanger in the kicks, it's hard enough to live without the Seas mid.


Try to get them as much on axis as possible. The work and effort you were going to do to modify the doors should be done to the kicks...Make it work!
Don't worry about blocking the lower freqs....Just don't block the high freqs...Just move those BG's to try and equal the path length differences...If the BGs are very directional speakers then there is no way they are going to work in the current location....Just move them away and aim them....
Here is a great post on the subject..._Pros and Cons of Kicks_
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5664&highlight=pros+cons



cvjoint said:


> Moving the lpg in the pillars posses some issues too:My pillars are way slanted, it would actually bring the tweeter very close to me. Is that an issue? If I change to lcy 110 it will be hard to do A-pillar mount since the ribbon is so large and it will take away a huge chunk of my visibility. I was thinking to build some pods and litteraly hang them from the pillar in the spot where the lpg is.


Just keep the LPGs....but mount them so they fire almost at each other(Play around with the angle to see what sonds best) and make sure they just clear the highest point of the dash....You don't need to mount them as high in the pillars as possible...especially if your pillars slope backwards. You have at least a 3"-4" before the Pillar start to slope too far back:
















BUT, make it look like this: 








Anthony's car again!


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2006)

cvjoint,

your speakers are currently positioned for good sound and poor aesthetics.
The question is, do you want to move the neo8 several wavelengths away from the tweeter (like down by your feet) for poor sound and good aesthetics? If this is such a great idea and sounds "word expert" awesome, then please have someone post a picture of an example of a "world class" home speaker or nearfield studio monitor or _any_ other type of high quality non car audio speaker design where the midrange sits on the floor and the tweeter sits 3 feet above it. As a matter of fact, have anyone who says this is a good idea put their money where their mouth is and post a picture of _*their very own*_ home loudspeakers or nearfield studio monitors so that we can see the 3' seperation between between tweeter and midrange (on the floor) that they think sounds so "world expert" great.
Better yet, try it for yourself and see why everyone outside the world of car audio "experts" gets a good laugh out of it.

cheers,

AJ

p.s. don't hold your breath for any pics


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

WlDock I'm not so sure the A-pillars works so well:

the lowest position on the pillar is not working because the hump the instrument panel makes on the dash. You would have to lift the tweeter at least two inches from there so the highs won't reflect off it. 

If you move it along the pillar to go over then It would end up in the same place as they are now, maybe 2 inches higher with no possibility for me to put them on axis.

also off axis like Anthony's install means less high end extension. Will it still go up to 20k?

It seems like you have it angled up a little bit, wouldn't that mean it reflects off the windshield? Is that what I want with a metal dome? The stock position wouldn't be any different then, and I've tried metal domes there, it sucks.

Aj I remember experimenting with the kappa perfect component set in the past. I moved the tweeter from the stock positon (high up on the dash near windshield), to high door location, to a location just next to the woofer and angled them on axis with the listener. Now that proved to be much better choice imo. Even though stage was way lower, when there was voice material I could not hear the separation I heard before. Since then I wanted to keep all drivers close. I mean you can't move the seas up because it is giant, but if the Neo is right inbetween there seems to be more coherence.

I am going to try lpg in the pillar and Neos in the Kicks anyways. I apreciate your guys input it is very valuable and now I feel the need to experiment more.

Two more final exams and I can start!


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2006)

Just for fun, let's see what a well-respected authority on loudspeaker design has to offer about the unique challenges of car audio vs. home audio. From the 11th chapter of the *Loudspeaker Design Cookbook*, 7th edition, by Vance Dickason ... yes, the chapter on Car Audio Loudspeakers:

-QUOTE-

Section 11.5, *DESIGNING FOR CENTER CHANNEL IMAGE PERFORMANCE*

If we adapt this criteria to the car compartment, we have a set of generic rules which can be used to enhance image performance:

2. The best imaging is generally produced using a two-way satellite for each channel, one midbass driver and one tweeter, mounted in close proximity. (Three-way configurations, while possible, usually require too much "real estate" to be practical). Multiple mids and tweeters placed in different locations only confuse and destroy any possibility of creating a phantom center-channel image. [5,6,7]

There is one trick in car audio to control image that you almost never see in the home audio market. Home speakers always have tweeters located very close to mid range producing drivers. However, the truth is that the ear locates sound primarily by high frequencies. This is why the dipole type speaker is used in home theater surrounds. With two tweeters operating out of phase, it produces a response null in the listening area and helps provide more diffuse and less localizing sound from the speaker. This acoustic phenomenon can also be taken advantage of in car audio installations. Instead of locating tweeters and mid woofers close to each other in a door or kickpanel location, tweeters can be located by themselves in a dash corner near the junction of the windshield and dash (the best windshield angle for imaging is, according to a study done by engineers at Harman-Motive [OEM car guys from the company who gives you JBL and Infinity] is something greater than 55 degrees).[8] Mid/bass drivers can be located in a door panel (typical factory door panel installations are near the bottom of the front door) or in a kick panel location. With a setup like this, the center image is excellent and placed high, usually above the dashboard as opposed to below the dash for kickpanel locations. This easy technique is frequently used in factory installations. In fact my last two cars, a Mitsubishi Eclipse and an Acura CL, both had tweeters installed in this fashion with 5.25" woofers in the lower door panel location, and imaging was excellent in both cars.

3. The midrange and tweeter drivers operating above 100Hz should be positioned as equidistant as feasible from the listeners. Three possible locations for mounting drivers in the front section usually include the doors, the dash, or the kick panels. Figures 11.36-11.38 show the approximate relative distances for each of these situations [9]. As you can see, the closest to equidistant mounting is in the corner kickpanel, below the dash. Although this location may seem too low to provide the correct image height, the result is more than acceptable. The major drawback is that it usually requires custom plastic molded kickpanels which allow the drivers to be mounted at angles, so the sound is aimed toward the listening area.

References :

5. Clark and Navone, "The Energy Time Curve," Autosound 2000 Tech Briefs, December/January 1992.
6. Clark and Navone, "An Ideal RTA Response," Autosound 2000 Tech Briefs, August/Spetember 1991.
7. D. Staats, "Natural Sound," Autosound 2000 Tech Briefs, Jnauary 1993.
8. R. Shively and W. House, Harman-Motive, "Perceived Boundary Effects in an Automotive Vehicle Interior," 100th AES Convention, May 1996, AES preprint no. 4245.
9. CLark and Navone, "Speaker Placement and Center Channel," Autosound 2000 Tech Briefs, October/November 1991.

- END QUOTE-

Conclusions :

- Here's a well-respected speaker authority, who doesn't simply look for home audio rules to be blindly followed in the car. He's not looking for pictures of home audio installations copied in cars, nor is he looking for pictures of car audio installations copied at home. Instead, he recognizes the unique challenges of the car audio environment. 

- He recognizes the potential benefits of tweeter/midbass separation in the car, concluding that "excellent imaging" is possible with tweets up high, midbass down low.

- He recognizes the value of kickpanel locations, rather than blindly dismissing them because they are not seen in home audio! And ... he's not recommending them for "aesthetic" reasons !! LOL!!

- Who does he most often REFERENCE ... in his chapter on CAR AUDIO? Why, Clark and Navone of course ... a couple of the very PIONEERS of kickpanel speaker locations  And of course, the A2K Tech Briefs are proudly referenced in the thread in this very forum about the pros & cons of kickpanel speaker locations 

Is the esteemed Mr. Dickason 100% correct on all counts? No ... his statement about localization is a vast oversimplification, for example. But perhaps a reference from a well-respected authority such as he will help convince those unwilling to understand basic audio principles and think for themselves (without pretty pictures)


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2006)

By the way, car audio experts often marvel ... and laugh ... at how little home audio "snobs" typically know about sound localization principles. This widespread ignorance among those that think home audio is somehow "superior" is, of course, understandable. Achieving good tonality _and_ good staging in a home is a piece of cake ... compared to the unique challenges of the car environment. Optimizing among more difficult challenges is the more respectable, and "superior", endeavor in my humble opinion 

But all opinions and snobbery aside, the truth is, as clearly recognized by the likes of Dickason, Clark and Navone among countless other experts who have devoted decades to understanding and optimizing "good sound" in the automotive environment, is that car audio and home audio environments present unique challenges, constraints ... and therefore compromises. Not recognizing this simple truth, and instead dismissing the work of leagues of expert tuners without knowledge of their preferences and experiences (both car _and_ home), does a dis-service to _both_ car _and_ home audio  

Of course, most of this was already covered in the thread about the the pros and cons of kickpanel speaker locations.


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

If the tweeters are at top for staging, I don't see why it'd be bad to move the Neo8's, playing mids, down approx 18" when it means the left-to-right bias will be a hell of a lot better. The passenger side Neo8 is over twice the distance from driver position - **** that!

Just spare me all the tech jargon if I'm off here you guys - a simple "you're wrong" will do 

-aaron


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2006)

aaron, you're not wrong ... in fact, your recommendation is a very solid one 

The reason is simple. In the frequency range the Neo8's will be playing, _laterally_ maximizing L/R pathlengths ... while minimizing pathlength differences ... is ENORMOUSLY more important than _vertical_ positioning. There will be ZERO loss of "coherence", because vertical cues simply don't exist in the midrange !  Check the AES paper referenced in the kickapnel thread, if arguments about wavelength compared to outer ear dimensions are somehow non-convincing  A little parallel time alignment, with careful crossover experimentation, are all that's required.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

OK, I will post this last thing.

Take a small set of coaxials(3.5", 4") and mount them in different parts of the car(Doors, dash, kicks)...Don't even worry about mounting them or anything just sit, tape, glue, etc. them in position. Play a good track with vocals and good stereo details and such. You will see the advantages and disadvantages of each location in the car in terms of imaging.

All I can say is...yes it is good to keep the tweeter close to the mid but it is possible to move the tweeter high ...just don't think that using the same crossover point, phase, level will always work. Needs to be retuned.

As far as the Accord pics....I don't see the problem?

Oh well, I guess you will figure out what works for YOU...Was trying to help but I am not sure that I have done that?


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2006)

Perhaps another way to look at the home audio comparison ...

In attempting to mimic the (relatively) easily-accomplished soundstage at home, is it important to make sure the speakers "look" the same in the home and car? Or rather, might it be more meaningful to attempt to understand, exploit and even manipulate localization principles (things rarely necessary in the home environment) in order to optimize the more challenging speaker locations in a car? Yes ... the car is more difficult. So much so, that many simply abandon the possibility of great spatial reproduction in a vehicle.

In home, as in car, what you're _really_ trying to do is _maximize_ pathlengths while _minimizing_ pathlength _differences_ ... assuming that spatial reproduction is important to you, of course. Pretty easily accomplished at home, by sitting the same distance between the speakers  But optimizing this constraint in a car points to kickpanels. So although we don't use kickpanel locations at home, exploiting the _same localization principles_ suggests kickpanel locations in the car.

Fortunately, further exploitation of localization principles means that not _all_ drivers must go in the kicks  Manipulation of vertical cues allows stage height to be retained, while still minimizing L/R path length differences and maintaining overall coherence. This environmental constraint is simply absent at home, of course ... which is why you'll see very different "looking" optimizations in the home and car.

Of course, I could be proven wrong by a picture of a high-end home audio (or theater) system where the _primary_ listening position is 8 inches from the left speaker and 3 feet from the right ... in a highly reflective nearfield environment, i might add ... where it's a physical _impossibility_ to sit equidistant between the speakers  Absent that, I'm satisfied with the understanding that car and home environments present different challenges, constraints and optimizations.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

First I want to say that _every bit of information here helped me_ and I thank you guys. Keep it coming!

Now...I did review the pros and cons of kickpanel instals and I have a few things to say:

1. The limit at which we can localize drivers seems to vary and it is very important we find a solid one. Here is a quote from the link: 

*"given the dimensions of the outer ear, this implies that vertical localization cues are only significant above ~1kHz or so"* Werewolf

I remember seing 2khz, 4khz, 5khz is ok, or 2khz to 4khz is fine. I want to remind you guys that the Neo8 run from 1.5khz to 5 khz so according to the quote above I have every reason to claim I CAN infact localize this driver with the range it covers if the limit is, and seems to be, *1khz*

2. Main benefit to kickpanel is this??????? :

*"So, simply put, the kickpanel optimization suggests that you solve the left/right problem physically, since it can't be solved electronically for both front seat passengers."* Werewolf

I do have time alignment and I do use it. I don't think most of us care for TA on the passenger side. IMO: if one of you guys (or somebody that knows a little about car audio) will sit in my car one day, I will be happy to do TA for the passenger side temporarly for the trip. I don't see physicall time allignment that important, especially when it is not perfect in kicks either, just better.

3. What do we trade off with kicks:

*"The price you pay is in stage height ... but this can be solved electronically for both front seat passngers And yes, the best installers and tuners have known all this for many, many years."* Werewolf

To me stage hight is very very important, more so than TA for the occasional passanger that does not know much. How can we fix it? Is there a TA equivalent in my headunit?

My pros and cons:
KICKS
Pros:
-will move the Neo a bit farther to give me better depth. (Important)
-will fix SOME TA from passanger side (almost no importance)
Cons:
-intrusive.I will have to move my hood release latch. (low importance)
-low soundstage. Might be fixed with HRTF?? (very important)
-diffraction caused by legs (of the most importance sound is virtually blocked)

NOTE: Fewer reflections are not a PRO because my current location offers the least imo. There is no glass involved that it can reflect off. 

A-Pillar tweeter mounting
Pros: 
- lift stage 2 inches (important)
- increase stage depth by about 4 inches (important)
Cons
-2 inches less stage width (important)
-can no longer use the lcy 110 (Very important)
-off axis mounting means less top end extension (Very important)
-reflections off the windshield and the cluster panel hump (Very important)


By the way I can't set TA between drivers with the hardware I have right now, just Left and Right allignment as a whole (I have rear stage too...I know I know...it's off most of the time. See I take care of my passangers!) We can assume I will address this question in the future and that I have infinite instalation skill for now 

By the way. When do you have to set phase and why? How does it vary according to setup?

My favorite quote:

*"I think all too often too many compromises are made in the name of "imaging" and "soundstage". Good imaging is great, but let's keep in mind that many recordings aren't mastered with imaging in mind. Spatial PRODUCTION is an afterthought a lot of times, making the importance of spatial REproduction overblown."* MarkZ


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2006)

Couple responses dude, no particular order ...

- yes, I've been a bit vague on what frequencies provide directional cues for stage height ... anywhere over the two octave spread of 1~4kHz. The AES paper quoted in the kickpanels thread states 4kHz (iirc), but I think some would argue lower than that. So let's say 2kHz ... which should satisfy even those with the largest ears 

- certainly if you don't give equal weighting to both front seat passengers, L/R time alignment (aka "delta alignment") can help a lot of side bias problems.

- the electronic technique for "raising" the perceived stage is HRFT (Head Related Transfer Function) Inversion/Replacement. It's described in some detail in that AES paper ... nothing more than a specialized EQ, really. The ear localizes height by the magnitude/phase response of our outer ears. It's just a matter of identifying that frequency response, inverting or equalizing it, and substituting a new one electronically.

The AES pape is great reading ... I think I have a hard copy around here somewhere. If you've got a fax, I'd be happy to send a copy ... assuming I can find it, of course


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

Is t/a really that affective that you can really just put any driver at any length left and right and get it centered with t/a?

-aaron


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

If the HRFT is anything like sony's DSO or whatever that function is called to lift up stage than it sounds like poop especially if it's just eq work. Have you heard this pupy in action?

It seems like the 2khz frequecy spot seems to be picked rather arbitrarly. It might as well be 1khz. In that range even my Seas Excels will have some vertical cues. This means any drivers size 7 or smaller need to be rather close or you might loose of the coherence.

TA is a great tool. It makes tremendous difference in all my setups. For now with this 4 way I can only do l/r allignment, with previous 2-ways I could allignthem perfectly. Back in the day I use to measure, convert, and plug in lenghts into equations to find the delay time. Now I just use EMMA cd's and center it by ear due to its simplicity. If I only new about the ppi processor in time I would have bought it and solved all this mess.

From what I see the speaker farthest makes all the difference in stage organization. From there a proper TA can "fix" things so that all speakers seem to be just as far. Am I correct?


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> It seems like the 2khz frequecy spot seems to be picked rather arbitrarly. It might as well be 1khz.


In a sense it is. It's based on pinna size, which varies from person to person. And it's also a typical thresholding problem. If you have a decaying signal of any type, where do you choose the threshold?


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2006)

Don't be afraid to experiment ... the only qualification is that every time you move a driver, you'll have to re-adjust levels, crossovers and time alignment to make sure you optimize the new position.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Afraid to experiment?! pshh..., I took the whole day to test setups before I begin fiberglass. I gotta admit I was a bit stuned how awsome kickpanel locations worked. I know...go ahead...u kickpanel believers will have your final say.  I underestimated the importance of depth in the soundstage. 

TEST 1: Neo 8 mounted in kicks both aimed at driver. 








One major advantage was that I was able to mount the passanger side neo on axis with me and improve imagine a great deal. This was not possible with previous locations due to door design. Depth is sooo good, the passanger one is some 5 feet away. It's the farthest speaker in the system and I will set the TA accordingly to place each speaker just as far...my PPI DCX-730 is on the way....awsome. As far as blocking the speaker, you can tell that the way I use the foot rest I actually get most of the radiating area of the Neo. It might be the same for the passanger reflection characteristics. 

I liked the depth so much I ended up moving my lpgs as far as possible->
TEST 2: LPG moved as far as possible on the dash, both aiming straight at driver








It seems like the pathlength from ear to each of these drivers on a chosen side is almost perfectly equal. What this means is that I might not have to do TA in between LPG and Neo8. I have to MEASURE to tell exactly if there is a difference.
Toghether driver side:








What astounded me most is that I have a "Bigger" sounding system now than before. I moved the Neo arround to see if I can tell a difference in the vertical plane after I lovered xover point to 4k. The truth is there is a difference, I can locate the Neo8 but I still got positive results. It is closer to the Seas now, and it seems like most voice content comes from these two guys so coherence actually improved.
I was soo impresed with the setup I tried more advices from u guys ->
TEST 3: mounted lpgs facing eachother on the dash.








Immediately I noticed a whole bunch of top end was missing. Didn't give up on it yet so I listened a few more songs. Some reflections cause some nasty sounds that were not there before. I thought I could fix it by lifting the speaker on something to pass the hump on my dash. Just as bad  I lost some stage depth because I moved them up a bit too. Overall it sounded a little mushy, less crisp and had less stereo goodie effects. I guess on axis remains the way for me, I didn't see any reason to place tweets firing at each other.

and...Bonus test:
A friend of mine let me borrow his LCY130s. FINALLY i got to test real ribbons in my car. I grabbed a couple caps and here it is:








This was a huge improvement as well. First 3 seconds of listening was enough to realize the hype about the ribbons is justified. LPGs sounded tiny and a bit dull in comparison. The lcys were better on any kind of music, I didn't think they were bright at all. Just more detailed, bigger, crispy sound. I will deffinetly buy a set of these. Location is going to be a problem again. I can't have the passanger one sitting on the dash due to the air bag system. If an accident ever takes away my passanger audio will prove to be to big of a tradoff so I tried other possibilities. It seems without faceplate and with a little trimming on the pillar I might still lay these on the dash. Or...I can hang them from the pillar where the lpgs used to be in the first pic of the thread.

Overall I gotta say there is nothing better than a little experimentation. Every car is different and there are always tradeoffs. Without trying things out you might miss a lot of benefits that you might just overlook.


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

IME with my Accord (99) the dash reflections were really nasty as well. Ebay a $30 dash mat- it's worth it  Also, I prefered mine on axis as well, but, they're not equal distances, measure it 

-aaron


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

i also want to say i messed again the tweeters in the kicks and i'll say that i didn't like the results. with my tweeters in the pillars the depth was deeper. voices felt like they were coming from the windshield. the tweeters in kicks, voices were coming from gauges. didn't like it at all. and it was like kinda liked that before when i actually ran the tweeters in the kicks for a good couple of months. i guess maybe its just my install that makes the tweeters in the pillars work. 

but looks good and experiment some more!


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

ArcL100 I meant distance from listener to Left LPG and listener to Left BG Neo8, not inbetween tweeters. I still do TA to allign left and right, and I will still use the ppi processor to allign the above with the Seas woofer and peerless xls.

Alphankenny1 I don't have tweeters in kicks. This is not what the comparison was about. In terms of LPG location I was strictly talking on axis on dash vs. off axis in pillar. I guess you can also go on axis on pillar but the depth will be smaller and it will be harder to mount. By the way how does the hinge mount work on the LPG?


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## alphakenny1 (Dec 21, 2005)

yea i know i just sharing my experience over the weekend. not saying its a direct comparison to yours. 

what do you mean how it works? put the tweet in the hole, screw on the hinge, place it on the surface. lol.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

did you try on-axis mounting yet?

I was wondering whether I can hinge it in the dash, bellow tweeter as opposed to on having the hinge on the back, cuz I can't put the hinge on the windshield.


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## ArcL100 (Jun 17, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> ArcL100 I meant distance from listener to Left LPG and listener to Left BG Neo8, not inbetween tweeters.


Oooo, gotcha 

What about the holes in the door panels now, lol.

-aaron


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

I just read "A basic guide to crossovers" on the tech thread that makes fiberglass look like piece of cake.

Anybody wana take a shot at helping me cross these over right now that I got them located optimaly?
Pictures of the reworked setup are on page 8 of this thread and I will list below my current xover settings:

Lpg 4k-20k 24db HP 
Neo8 1000k-4k 12db HP 24dbLP
Seas Excel 200hz-1k 24db HP 12db LP
Xls 63hz-200hz 24db HP and LP
Idmax 20hz-63hz 24db LP

I am woring about phase issues and crossover type L-R or Butt. etc. I don't know how to pick to get better results other than the fact that it is a sharper slope.

Given the instal I posted, assume all drivers are TA aligned, what slopes should I choose?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2006)

cvjoint, you have just become my personal hero 

because :

- you weren't afraid to experiment
- you posted your results
- you discovered the wonders of soundstage _depth_ in a vehicle


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## mach_y (Sep 8, 2006)

Crossover points are going to be tough without seeing actual frequency responses of your speakers in-car. When I put new speakers in the car, I'll measure each one's response independent of the others to get a rough starting point. Then I'll work on crossover points two-drivers at a time. For example, left tweeter to left midrange. Both playing pink-noise, while measuring with an RTA I'll mess with the crossover points / slopes / type looking for a smooth transition. Often higher slope sounds better, but in some cases, the natural rolloff of a driver may dictate a lower slope for better blending. 

I think the points you listed are fine to start with. The great part with the dcx is you can save 5 presets, and with one button change the crossover points. Set your TA, set your levels, then start tweaking  That's where the fun really begins


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## tard (Jul 13, 2006)

werewolf, if you find those aes papers, and it wouldn't be too much of a bother, i'd like to check them out also.


i didn't notice it mentioned any where. L and R gain control can also help you with imaging. try it and see if it fits your application. reduce the signal to the left, or increase it to the right. which ever way, can pull your staging over to the right more.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2006)

dude I'll look for the AES papers later tonight ...

And yes, gain (or balance) can influence perceived stage ... but only to a limited extent. The ears use IID at higher freqs, but ITD at lower freqs. Only way to best satisfy _all_ constraints to minimize PLD


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Also, may want to try out the BG NEO tweet...It's Nice! 

http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/


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## NaamanF (Jan 18, 2006)

werewolf said:


> cvjoint, you have just become my personal hero
> 
> because :
> 
> ...


Kudos cvjoint. Way to give it a try even though some people were telling you it wouldn't work based on nothing more than their bad experience.


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## vactor (Oct 27, 2005)

cvjoint said:


> I cannot do kicks because I drive stick; stick still worth it lol  I don't need the xls upfront do I? it's only running 200hz-63hz
> 
> I don't think I can do Neo8s in pillars...too big and my pillars are way steep. I was thinking of doing the Lcys hanging from the pillars...just above Neo8-more coherence.
> 
> .


BS. i had a Dynaudio system 360 in the kicks of my Honda Civic 5 sopeed. that's ALL THREE drivers: 7, 3 and tweet, in the kicks. no problem. in my current daily driver (integra sedan 5 speed) i have an Adire Extremis and a Dyn tweet in the kicks. also, our ears are INsensitive to height. cuz we only have ears on the left and right. i have had 3 cars with kick panel speakers and not ONE of them had anything BUT a nice high soundstage. put 'em in the kicks if at all possible. your ears will thank you!!


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Thanks folks that's why I love this place. I come with a mess of a system and people give their honest, well backed opinions on how it should be done. I'm learning more here than in school lol

So to cross everything really well I need an RTA.  don't know and don't have yet, I need a meet to actually see one of those things perform. I guess untill then I need to force my ear to cooperate with the dcx he he

I want to see the AES papers as well but I don't have a fax.

I do mess with the balance a bit, I go +1 on the right channel. I figured it sounds better because the right speakers are farther and the spl decreases with increasing distance. Anyways it seems like a small benefit since +2 seems to give too much bias to right speakers allready.

I never thought of the Neo3 because I figured it doesn't extend high enough to be used a supertweeter so to say. I knew about the tests buy didn't realize they have a freq. graph posted. Hmmm...I did like the lcy 130 a lot. The only thing that's keeping me from trying one of these big format tweeters is instalation depth lol. I want it so bad I don't feel like mounting bigger drivers closer.

Vactor: I think saying BS about mounting everything in kicks is a bit too much. My system is composed out of a big planar design, a 7 inch mid, and an 8 inch minisub that's actually a 9 if we keep measurements constant. I am going to install the Neo8 in kicks but that's about as much as I can do without taking out footrest and making leg room really small. Not to mention it is almost impossible to give the Peerless xls room to breathe mounted alone, nevermind when crowded by two big drivers.


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## sqkev (Mar 7, 2005)

cvjoint,
glad you're experimenting, have you settled on a particular setup yet? after the holidays, we should get together for another socal meet for some tune up sessions. 

How much processing do you have at the moment though? Just the cd7000? If you're running 4 way up front, what about the subs?

IMO, do not try to adjust the balance of the system (left/right). What you need is TA the drivers that needed it, phase correction and even out the left/right frequency responses. You really need at least a RTA to do this.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

NaamanF said:


> Kudos cvjoint. Way to give it a try even though some people were telling you it wouldn't work based on nothing more than their bad experience.


YES, it is nothing more than those years of BAD experiences that got him to move the mids and tweets forward of the listening position...and NOW he likes it and can hear it for himself that we were not feeding him a bunch of BULL!

KUDOS TO cvjoint!


I.M.O. I would still find an 8" that can play up to the BG NEO8 and still give great midbass. Once you get the BG's sealed and mounted, should try a lower crossover point 300Hz-500Hz. I would think that the XLS's could mate up to that point from the mesurements I have seen? 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2698&highlight=peerless
If so, you could move them to the forward part of the door...(Then you can pull the Excels and LPGs find some mids and make some home speakers with them 


Or can put a smaller but bad ass midbass in the door like the the Adire Audio Extremis 6.4 in the door
http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_drivers/adire_extremis/
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=664&highlight=extremis
http://diymobileaudio.com/pics/xmech1.avi


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

WLDock said:


> I.M.O. I would still find an 8" that can play up to the BG NEO8 and still give great midbass. Once you get the BG's sealed and mounted, should try a lower crossover point 300Hz-500Hz. I would think that the XLS's could mate up to that point from the mesurements I have seen?
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2698&highlight=peerless
> If so, you could move them to the forward part of the door...(Then you can pull the Excels and LPGs find some mids and make some home speakers with them
> 
> ...



I won't speak for CV, but I suspect that the BG's at 300Hz would have trouble lasting a day in my vehicle.


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Well,
The BG planer drivers seems to differ in that:_
they have the ability to maintain SPL at half the roll off rate (-3dB per doubling of distance) of a conventional dynamic driver (-6dB)._

ALSO,
Effective Freq. Range -* 200Hz-20000Hz*
Recommended LF Crossover for Multimedia and mini Systems - 220Hz
Recommended LF Crossover for Home Theater and Hi-Fi - 500Hz
Sensitivity * (2.83V/1M) - 93dB*
Impedance *(resistive over entire range)* - 4 Ohms

Because this driver has good sensitivity, seems like an easy load to drive, wide usable range, and the low roll off rate...I would think one could get away with a 400Hz crossover point with a high slope....then push the XLS's to their max range up to that point? You may not even have to take them all the way to that point? Sometimes you get peaks and need to underlap crossover points(Need an RTA or some type of measuring tools to look at the response...). 

I would say it is as least worth trying in a attempt to simplify the system for the sake of trying to achieve a more coherent sound between the least amount components in different locations.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

The XLS's sound awful up around 400Hz. I've lowered mine to around 250Hz (24dB/oct) because as I approach 300Hz things begin to get a little iffy. That's just in my car. However, others seem to concur.

That's not to say replacing the XLS's with a similar midbass (not midrange) driver that would be able to give him the same sorts of low freq output and can extend to 400-500Hz wouldn't be a bad idea. But that's a tough animal to find. The SLS's can go that high, but their low freq output capabilities are limited too. The Extremis is a possibility, although I also don't think their output capabilities match what you can get from the XLS. There might be other drivers that could be tried though. Tangband has one, I think, and then there's that B&C (I think) that people have talked about but never seem to want to buy...


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## WLDock (Sep 27, 2005)

Trial and error.


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Sqkev I have a 4 way stage + sub. I got my PPI DCX 730 in a couple of days ago. That's why I haven't posted on my thread in the last 48 hours. I've been working like a dog to get that installed. I also got one more amp in...for a total of 6 amps. 

I've managed to run all 14 of my speakers active, bandpassed, and more importantly time alligned. For everybody that is running a simple Left Right TA setup it is worth investing in a processor like the PPI to TA ALL drivers tweet, mid, etc.

I don't have phase correction  but I do have 7 bands of EQ for each individual speaker, level adjustment upfront etc.

I want to make the SOCAL meeting happen so bad right now. I don't know what an RTA can do for my system but the last few changes: kick panel locations and TA for all speakers made wonders for my system.


WLDock and MarkZ: I have decided to stay with my 4 way for a few reasons:

1. My Neo8 is actually the PDR version--less sensitivity, less power handling, higher HP needed. I put at least 75watts into these when the rating is only 40w and unlike subs these run on this sort of power continously. I cannot cross these lower than 1khz without a dip in my freqency response or burning the element.

2. Only a few drivers come to mind that are 8 inches and can cross 1khz without problems. Out of these none can match the xls in terms of low frequency output. I have tried the RE XXX mids for lower bass and those sounded awfull crossed high as a mid, while clearly laggin behind in midbass response. Truth is...nothing can touch the XLS down below, and nothing can touch the Excel 18EX 200-1khz.

3. Since the Seas driver is small I can move it farther down in the door, more so than an 8 inch option. The xls will be closer to the driver...true...but I also have TA for every driver now.


Pics of the PPI processor will be posted this weekend.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

14 speakers?!?!?! I used to have 15 in my car and let me tell you....never again! the simpler the setup is, the easier it is to manage. 14/15 speakers have way too many sound waves bouncing around the tiny airspace of a vehicle. lots of cancellation and anomalies. props to you for continueing to pursue it and wanting to tackle such a task.


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## M-Dub (Nov 29, 2006)

vactor said:


> also, our ears are INsensitive to height. cuz we only have ears on the left and right.


I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. But I may be wrong. Maybe it has something to do with the visual factor. Does anyone else have any input on this?


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## NaamanF (Jan 18, 2006)

Megalo said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. But I may be wrong. Maybe it has something to do with the visual factor. Does anyone else have any input on this?


You are right to disagree with that statement. My girlfriend can only hear from one ear. She can't localize sound at all but she can tell hight. I tested her by having her eyes closed and I snapped my fingers. She got it right every time.


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2006)

^^^ already covered in the kickpanel thread (pros & cons)

The first step in understanding how we localize sound is to imagine our heads _without_ any outer ears, so we just have "spheres with holes in the sides". In the absence of outer ear shapes, the ear can still localize sound in the lateral plane by Interaural Time Differences (mostly significant in the midbass, lower midrange) and Interaural Intensity Differences (mostly significant in the upper midrange and treble, due to head shadowing).

Equally important is the recognition that "spheres with holes in the sides" are vertically symmetric ... meaning it's impossible to distinguish height, because there would simply be no mechanism to do so.

So we conclude that the _only possible_ way to distinguish height is the shape of our outer ear ... because that's the only physical means we have to ruin the vertical symmetry of "spheres with holes in the side". But the shape of the outer ear is too small to influence wavelengths longer than about 2kHz.

Conclusions :

- The ear can localize height, but only in the frequency range higher than about 2kHz

- The outer ear shape is the same for both our ears, and somewhat similar for both passengers in the front seat. So while it is not possible to introduce ITD's and IID's for both front passengers electronically, it _is_ possible to electronically "manipulate" height cues in the treble.

MOre info in the kickpanel thread ...


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## Whiterabbit (May 26, 2006)

I dont think you need to use fiberglass at all (except to repair the hole in the door made by the BG8)

to put a grill on that door, all you need is something to seat the grille into. an MDF baffle will work very well for that purpose. Just like a baffle you see for a kickpanel. Where you have an MDF ring that flushmounts a speaker (this is easy to make with a router.)

you will make it VERY oversized and attach to the backside of the doorpanel. Perfection need not be achieved, just needs to be attached in a way that will not vibrate. the cracks can then be filled with a bodyfiller to join the countours of the door panel.

youll end up with a perfect circle surrounding each speaker with a rabbeted boundary to inset your metal grille. This you make by starting with an MDF ring and using that as a base to attach perforated aluminum. you cover this grille with grille cloth over a layer of matching paint.

the doorpanel will be ugly with the MDF and bodyfiller, but after you reupholster the panel, itll look fantastic.





I think I read somewhere you plan to move the BG's to the kickpanel? thats a good call, there isnt much you can do with the BG in the door position to make it look good. you can repair the hole by backing it with fiberglass, then covering the whole thing with bodyfiller till its smooth. reupholster and you wont know it was ever cut to begin with


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

well 14 speakers isn't that much...4 are off most of the time (rear stage), 2 are subs, and other 2(xls) are mini subs that help out the 12s in the upper end. What you got left is a three way that is not so uncomon.

I got another expert opinion on imaging from the guy who let me borrow his lcys. He noticed that the stage was pulled down a bit by moving the neo in the kicks. Vertical cues are noticeable 4khz and down....maybe to 2khz. However, we both agreed that the depth was deffinetly improved and was a far better benefit than the slight loss of stage hight. All in all neos in kicks was a good ideea.

I am suspecting there is a lot more in moving speakers far from the listener. It is not only depth that's improved when using kickpanels. For some reason it seems a speaker sounds optimal a certain distance from you. The Neo 8 where far too close to sound this good even If I managed to get tweeters really far and do time allignment to seriously delay the BG. I remember testing some huge electrostatic speakers and they sounded better some 20 feet away!

Whiterabbit: I gave up on grilles and the stock look a long time ago. If you want it all you automatically give those up. I need a fiberglass door to:
1. mount the seas correctly - panel does not fit with the seas in there
2. mount the xls closer to the seas to protect it from slamming belts and back passengers getting out
3. I need these drivers enclosed, they are home audio drivers and I want to keep em away from moisture. I get water in my doors 
4. angle the Seas more - not so important anymore. I lowered the xover point to 1khz. It does good off axis.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

> My girlfriend can only hear from one ear. She can't localize sound at all but she can tell hight. I tested her by having her eyes closed


It should be pointed out that there's another cue that can be used to localize height -- and that's head position dynamically changing in the vertical plane. That is, if your girlfriend's head is moving up and down, the brain can use the difference in sound manifested mostly in intensity differences (or FR differences, especially prominent if there's a large occluder in the way) in order to extract information about height.

[um...despite the delivery of this post, it's still actually a valid point ]


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Finally in business with fiberglass...well reisin for now  I managed to make the mdf rings and get them hot glued to angle the speakers. Sad thing is I was not able to mount the xls ring closer to the seas. the mounting depth is way smaller at the middle of the door as the window motor is placed right on the other side. I will not be able to place the xls anywhere else but in the old spot, and the far edge. 

The only other method of mounting the xls will be to cut everything down to a 3 way and place just the peerless near the kicks. Since I chopped off my door and love the 4 way so much I decided to stay with both the Excel and the XLS driver. Here it is:










Then I managed to give the overall shape of the door. It was a pain in the ass to wrap a whole door without getting excess fleece and having to cut it. It is not the best job, but giving the difficulty level and that I'm a noob it came out allright...I think.


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## ocuriel (Oct 7, 2005)

Very nice. I don't think I could of done better. That should be real easy to get it smooth and flowing together.


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## Hernan (Jul 9, 2006)

Interesting thread!

I have been using the following setup for two years.
Several times I've tried the tweeters at different locations, A pillars, Sail panels, etc. and they always sounds better at the kicks next to the midranges.








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Detail of the midbass installation. I have made an adaptor sealing the flush mounted driver with the inner door cavity. It works nice.








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The three drivers sound very like a single source, in fact the sound does not seems to come from the kicks at all, it is spread across the dash. Stage height is a bit above the dash, not too high but enought for my tastes.


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## Fixtion (Aug 25, 2006)

*O_O*

the dead walk amongst the living!!!!

-points in shock and terror-


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## KARPE (Nov 9, 2008)

-screams and pisses-


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## cvjoint (Mar 10, 2006)

Oh wow, this thread...I learned a lot from this one. I spend years perfecting this setup, going back to the responses here and changing a few things there and there. 

This year it all came out, I'm doing a Warewolf 100% special: mids deeper in the kicks, tweeters higher in the pillars, wider mounted midbass drivers, fewer drivers. 

I will of course have to let go of mounting all the drivers right next to eachother, I've always failed with apillar setups but I figured I'll give it a few years of perfecting like the one in this thread.


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