# Bad Kitty - The Install Begins (Finally)



## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

I've had the car over a year and I have been planning the install from the time I brought it home. I am going for a 5.1 music setup. It will take a while but I've got to get started sooner or later.

Here is the under hood shot (right after I brought it home - CLEAN):










Here is the interior (note the center channel):










I began getting the main power wires run. This was more of a challenge than I thought. The only areas that had avaiable space were near the exhaust. I passed on those. I settled on putting one inside the frame rail.

I got a grommet in place to get through the rail. See below:


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Then I ran the wire down inside the fednerwell and into the framerail.










And buttoned it back up:











Then back out of the rail. Notice the bare metal for the ground lug (picture later).










Got the pic before the last screw was in 











Then loomed and around the trunk into the tire well where the amp rack will live.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

This is part of the amp rack (layer one). 










I got a few more things done but it was too dark for photos. MORE TO COME.


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## alachua (Jun 30, 2008)

That is a seriously clean looking install thus far. I can't wait to see more.


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

Nice work Snake!


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## KP (Nov 13, 2005)

Why are you running speaker wire under the hood?


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

It is 0 gauge. It just has a thinner jacket than most of the car audio branded wiring. I never much cared for the bulk of the other stuff....

BTW - What did you ever do about the 8NDL51s?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Nice!!!!

If I had known you were starting, I would've loved to lend a hand. 
I sat around all day screwing around in the garage, lol.

Give me a shout if you'd like some assistance in the future. If you wind up working on it tomorrow, I'd be glad to help out.


And... which amps are you running? 2 600/4 & 1 750/1, correct? 
Also, that trunk is canaverous. You can hide bodies back there. I mean, I've been told you can... I wouldn't know personally... or... ummm.... G/G!


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## FLYONWALL9 (Nov 8, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> Nice!!!!
> 
> If I had known you were starting, I would've loved to lend a hand.
> I sat around all day screwing around in the garage, lol.
> ...



DAMNIT MAN, I need some offers like this from the south
end of the state! I may could get something done if I had
someone else working on my car. 

Either one of you guys going to Barber for INDY or AMA races? 
sorry not meaning to derail......


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Erin,

Monday is Presidents Day... should be a full day of audio install. I will be working on the rear deck / AE install. Check your PM inbox. Cell number is included. Give me a shout.

Charles


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> Either one of you guys going to Barber for INDY or AMA races?
> sorry not meaning to derail......
> 10 Hours Ago 09:40 PM


Not likely. I am taking all of my free time to get this done.

NOT LIKELY TO GET MUCH GOING TODAY - COLD AND WET


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

See, it didn't even snow here at all. Just rainy.

Charles, are you not able to pull the car in the garage? It looks like from your pictures, you are inside.

If not, then you're more than welcome to come down here and pull it in the garage.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

Hey, Erin, probably be more effective to call him instead of leaving a message in a thread he might not see for hours...

(I do it too...and it always works out the person doesn't log on for days or something. hahaha)

Snake: That's all the snow you got? Aww, It's cute. 
We got like 10 inches (of snow).

Jay


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

All right, the real deal is that today is Valentine's Day and a brother has gotta put in the time 

I'll get rolling on this tommorrow.


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## MarkZ (Dec 5, 2005)

That's a small spot for the center channel. What's your plan?


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## HiVi Guy (Jan 16, 2010)

Clean!

It is snowing right now where I am at in middle TN. Extreme_Acres and I worked on his car for 10 hours yesterday and it was SOOO cold.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> That's a small spot for the center channel. What's your plan?


Airsaw


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## cleung (Feb 11, 2010)

Hey what do you think of the jl HD amp?


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

Subscribed.


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## th3disturbed1 (Oct 4, 2009)

looks great so far. keep up the good work


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

What distribution blocks are those?


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## angelspeedfreak (Oct 5, 2009)

Sweet car. I cant wait to see more.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

Looks good.

What did you do with the Saturn? How did you fix (or did you) the additional "fresh air vents" you added to the trunk area? Just wondering because I have an altima that may need that done soon


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## alpinem (Nov 25, 2006)

Everyone knows that "fresh air vents" go in the dash/fender/shock tower area :surprised:

Looks great Charles.....


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

Nice V! Subscribed..


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## sq civic (Jul 21, 2009)

He didn't add fresh air vents!!! He simply took out extra metal that they put in new cars these days!!!


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

I still have the Vue. It is my wife's daily driver. The "air vents" are still there. She has a pair of IDMaxs recessed under the cargo compartment in the rear. Best subbass to date and still let's her carry around a few groceries. There are still a few things to do/redo on the Vue but it is getting there (a little more slowly now  ).


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> He didn't add fresh air vents!!! He simply took out extra metal that they put in new cars these days!!!


Come on now Ricky... I did put aluminum back in


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

A few more updates.

Monday was a slow go as I had to rethink the sub install.

I was putting the subs under the rear deck but after pulling the backseats and all trim panels I discovered a fairly large electronics package on the rear deck. So I went on to plan B...

First up was the fuse block. It is a Stinger piece that I have had for quite some time.










I pulled the stock rear sub and replaced it with my rear stage speaker a B&C 8NDL51.




























I should clear up one thing. I said I was setting up a 5.1 system, in reality it will only be a 4.1 system. The rear channel will be a single channel.

Then onto the sub baffle. As I mentioned, no joy for the rear deck mount so I am using a traditional behind the seat mount (with a fedw twists). Here is a pic of the rough cut. 










I have the baffle covered at this point but no pics (I'll get them this weekend).

Also, the rear speaker will get a sealed enclosure to keep the sub from bottoming it out. That will just have to wait for warmer weather as I plan to use fiberglass and it was DAMN cold in Alabama Monday (no heat in shop).

OH YEAH - I forgot to link in the ground block pic. This time with all THREE screws. Idon't know how that happened but it was bugging the crap out of me.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> Hey what do you think of the jl HD amp?


I have only bench tested these... and I was very happy. Very clean with no strange behaviour (ala PDXs).

I have heard them in several installs and I like what I have heard.



> What distribution blocks are those?


Streetwires but I am not sure if they still sell them. I heard a while back that they were being discontinued.

Thanks to all for the kind words. I am trying to spend a little time up front so I don't spend a lot of time down the road.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> Sweet car. I cant wait to see more.


THANKS! I looked for a long time to find this one. To find an 07 in this shape for a decent price was great. The fact that it had a Corsa cat back system was just a bonus (I actually got the salesman to reduce the price because it "wasn't factory").



> Just wondering because I have an altima that may need that done soon


Andy, 

I have a brand new compressor so just let me know... I have to get some use out of this thing to justify the purchase.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Nice progress!

Yesterday it was stupid cold! Glad to see someone made the best of it, though.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

I don't need more metal cut, I need the metal to magically reappear in the vehicle 


On the heat in the shop. I bought a small electric space heater at walmart for like $50.00 and if you give it about 45 minutes it will take my garage from below 50 degrees up to around 60 degrees. 

If you put it in the vehicle with you--you will eventually lean back against it and


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

For metal to "magically reappear" you have to go to my father-in-law's shop and fire up the MIG. 

What is the deal with the Flatlynes? The last time I talked to you subs were "the last thing I worry about"... The flatlynes seem to have changed your mind.


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## Andy Jones (May 12, 2006)

flatlynes are the best subs I,ve ever heard. you want tonality at 18hz they have it. you want to break welds in your car---they will do that. seriously no other sub is close


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

A few more things done...

Subs, check



















A little sound deadening, check










More on the amp rack tomorrow.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You digging the subs?

I'd like to try out the B&C 8s.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> You digging the subs?
> 
> I'd like to try out the B&C 8s.


On the subs, I don't know yet... I haven't gotten enough of the system put together to listen to them.

The B&Cs are a great match to horns in a two way  IMO - Without horns you need to go three way.

Most importantly, they have that high effeciency POP! I'm torn between these and a pair of Nextels as the midrange in this system. I have to tear into the doors to figure out how much rear clearance I have and any angling possibilities (I would prefer to get the main lobe aimed more toward the opposite side seating position than the center console). I am also considering kicks but with a 6 speed manual and foot actuated ebrake it is VERY crowded on the drivers side.



I thought that you would be tearing the IB install apart. Those gaps at the strut towers... 

They are actually sealed with a stock MLV flap (the only stock MLV in the car). Once I get all of the wiring through those passages I 'm going to come back and fiberglass over the top of the MLV. That should provide an airtight seal.


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## dodgeman70592 (Jun 16, 2009)

I'm liking this, nice job. Very clean...


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> I'm liking this, nice job. Very clean...


Thanks man! I hope it stay this clean when I get the car PC and the rest of the wiring in. I have had installs where you got to the point that there was no way to NEATLY cram anymore wiring in. With this install I am trying to avoid this by using multiple layers in the amp rack to provide more wire management area. We'll see how it turns out.

All,

Sorry that I didn't get more done on the amp rack. My new Bosch router came in and I went ahead and mounted it to the table (after a few modifications to the table). There wasn't much time left after that adventure.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

It has been A while since I updated this thread and I have been through a few iterations but as I am getting things finished up I thought that I would bring everyone up to date.

This first attempt was to use a PC to integrate with the factory Audio/Nav. Here is the amp rack with everything in place.














































Everything worked well EXCEPT getting the factory audio to play well. I could neveer get rid of the noise. Audio native to the computer itself was flawless. I tried using a couple of JL Audio Cleansweeps/Signal Summing Interfaces to ditch the noise but no luck. I tried line drivers, ground loop isolators, hell everything I could think of, no dice.

About that time the JBL MS-8 hit the market. The next post will let you know what happened there...


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## scooter99 (Dec 21, 2008)

That's an insanely clean rack man! Nice work!


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## Se7en (Mar 28, 2007)

Cool. Glad to see this thread is back!


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

After the failure with the AutoPC I went to an MS-8 (pictured below) and ditched the top level of the amp rack:










Unfortunately this was the best repsonse curve I could get using the MS-8.










Before everybody starts bashing the MS-8, it took me a while but I found out this was not all the MS-8s fault (more as we go).


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

At first I thought it might be the stock HU and along the way my disc changer died. Given I didn't have blue tooth, memory stick, or ipod capability I decided to swap the stock changer with an Alpine HU (CDA-117). This required cutting of the stock HU chassis and some molding of the dash. Here are the results:










I am sorry for the lighting. Once I get it cleaned up and the final paint done I will get some better pics.

So at this point the setup is still a two way front with one way rears and dual subs and the CDA-117.

The problem with the MS-8 turned out to be constructive/destructive interference generated by my mounting locations. The AE TD6Hs were flushed into the kicks (depicted below):










The parallel walls of the kicks and transmission tunnel seemed to be causing this. The kicker was I had a large null at 80hz. 80hz was the bottom end of the midrange xover range. The MS-8 did its best to fix this but it eventually ran out of biquads to adjust the response (I think).

The tweets are still sitting on the dash in a temporary location (trying to figure out if I where I want these).










Once I changed all of the above and figured out the null at 80hz I moved the xover point up on the mids to 100hz and tuned with the MS-8. I got better results but nothing stellar (I will post an RTA curve of the MS-8 tune later). This led me to look for a manual tune processor. I decided on the Behringer DCX2496. Finding a location for this thing was a challenge. I finally settled on a rack mounted below the back deck (see below):










The clear bar along the bottom is plexi with a few LEDs behind. I'll get a lighted pic later.

That's all for today. More later


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

BTW - keep in mind these are in progress pics. No cleanup done yet (I noticed the amps and other stuff needs a little TLC).


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## audio+civic (Apr 16, 2009)

subscribed.


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## ssmith100 (Jun 28, 2007)

SSSnake,

Nice install. Not a lot of "V''s on this forum. Here's the link to mine in case you might want some ideas. I was going to make the change to HD amps but never got around to it. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-member-build-logs/17514-2004-cady-cts-v-install.html


Shane


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

I followed your install quite a bit and really liked the trunk work. Did you decide to ditch the DIC? The reason I ask is I considered the new 910 but wanted to keep the DIC and stock nav and wanted to know if you came up with a work-around.

Anyway I really like your install. Your's is still on the road isn't it? I seem to remember one member here that totaled theirs (maybe se7en).


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## ssmith100 (Jun 28, 2007)

I ditched the stock DIC. I could still turn things off at steering wheel and I installed the PAC piece that let me keep OnStar and chimes. I was trying to come up with an adapter cable to keep the stock DIC but I gave up on it. After going from the Stock deck to the W505 there just wasnt a comparison.

Unfortunately mine was the one that was totaled. I've had numerous cars but this is the one I miss the most.

Shane


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## backpachyderm (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm in the middle of a sloooow build on my 06. I'm junking the stocker and doing the V6 dic with a W910 molded in. H-Audio trinity combo with the AP3 and Enigma in the pillars.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

> Unfortunately mine was the one that was totaled. I've had numerous cars but this is the one I miss the most.


I hate to hear that. This has been my favorite car by far. I just love the sleeper aspect of it. You don't expect a Cadi to move like these things. Well before all of the damn TV ads.



> I'm in the middle of a sloooow build on my 06. I'm junking the stocker and doing the V6 dic with a W910 molded in. H-Audio trinity combo with the AP3 and Enigma in the pillars.


Let me know how that goes. If I can get the V6 DIC to work without major mods (and I have heard that you can) I will definitely swap the CDA for the 910. My wife has been wanting bluetooth in her car anyway


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## hugmeharry (Oct 7, 2011)

subscribed!


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## angelspeedfreak (Oct 5, 2009)

looking good..


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Long overdue update. Most of you know I have been complaining about deep nulls at 80 hz for my kick mounted mids. I finally decided to do something about it...

I built some new kick baffles (the kicks aren't in their final state yet) and decided to test several drivers I had lying around. These are the contenders:










Vifa NE225W-04
B&C 8NDL51
JBL 2118
ScanSpeak Illuminator 18WU/4741T 
Acoustic Elegance TD6H

The idea is to try them one at a time and decide which ones I want to keep. The process will be to install them, hit them with WT3 to get their general parameters in the kicks, EQ them, listen for week, tweak the EQ, listen for another week then try the next set. I'll be sharing the info as I go.

These are the kicks:










And now loaded with the first contender, the venerable JBL 2118:










As you can see these vent into the frame rail through about a 5.75" hole. The rails are lightly packed with polyfil, gaps sealed with butyl, and the baffle to carpet junction is just open. The baffles are crushed into the carpet very tightly but there will be some additional vetning. One I settled on the driver I will fiberglass that junction and begin the aesthetic stuff.

The kicks are angled so the driver is about 50 degrees off axis from the near mid/midbass and the far driver is about 10 degrees off axis. From just the initial listening with the JBLs I can tell you getting them more on axis has helped the drivers side mid/midbass dramatically in terms of upper midrange output. I'll get some testing done tomorrow and a good tune then post some results.

THIS SHOULD BE FUN!


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

I forgot to mention (and you can't tell it from the pic - I didn't have all of the screws in) I tend to focus on a very sturdy mounting of the drivers. Each panel has ten mounting points back to the car with some very hefty screws. You could tow the car by hooking on to these things.


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## mrm1776 (Oct 30, 2010)

Love the amp rack. Subscribed.


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

Where you at in Alabama?

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Huntsville - Why? you're not planning on jacking my ride are you :laugh:


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

I live in northeast Alabama. Around Gadsden. Was hoping someone was close lol

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> Huntsville - Why? you're not planning on jacking my ride are you :laugh:


I'm outside your car right now. 


Trey, I'm in Decatur. Charles and I work about a stones' throw away from each other. I see him circling my car nearly every day in the parking lot. I keep hoping he's going to put my hubcaps back on my car for me. 



In other news, I can't believe I missed some of these updates. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it all. I'd like to bet you go with the Illuminator, but you kind of strike me as a HE driver guy so the B&C might be the winner.


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

bikinpunk said:


> I'm outside your car right now.
> 
> 
> Trey, I'm in Decatur. Charles and I work about a stones' throw away from each other. I see him circling my car nearly every day in the parking lot. I keep hoping he's going to put my hubcaps back on my car for me.
> ...


Edit: around an hour and a half from Huntsville. Lol might have to meet up when we get our systems done.be good to put a face with a username lol

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Sure maybe a mini meet.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Correct. Clutch, ebrake and just generally not wanting to loose more space. I got measurements done this weekend but need some time to post.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Charles, did you get my pm?


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

treylittlefield said:


> I live in northeast Alabama. Around Gadsden. Was hoping someone was close lol
> 
> Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk


My son is currently in AU so I get through Gadsden quite a bit. I'll give a shout the next time I'm through. Erin has a large gtg every year as well that offers a lot of opportunities to listen to other vehicles.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

My son is currently in AU so I get through Gadsden quite a bit. I'll give a shout the next time I'm through. Erin has a large gtg every year as well that offers a lot of opportunities to listen to other vehicles.


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

SSSnake said:


> My son is currently in AU so I get through Gadsden quite a bit. I'll give a shout the next time I'm through. Erin has a large gtg every year as well that offers a lot of opportunities to listen to other vehicles.


Haha me and your son about the same age lol I ain't as sq oriented as you guys, but I'd be down to meet up . I don't have a system yet. In the works of getting it all together though

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Erin pm sent.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Yeah I'm and old fart but my sons love the systems I put together with them. Most are about maximizing value. Find a good deal that does what you want and go with it. Oh and they typically have a little boom as well. I'm trying to convert them but I figure we all kind of start out with a bass head stage. Even if we don't want to admit it.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I'm more curious about opinions on my favorite midbass- the 2118 vs the B&C and the TD-6H. I'm going to be changing my SDX7s out for more of a HE midbass...I so miss that pop and impact you get from them.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Me too. I am not sold on the HE route but I do admit those are typically my preferred drivers. Hard to fault the illuminator, at least on paper. The problem is that any viable comparison between the HE and standard drivers is likely to boil down to subjective traits. I wish I knew of a test to objectively quantify the differences.


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

SSSnake said:


> Yeah I'm and old fart but my sons love the systems I put together with them. Most are about maximizing value. Find a good deal that does what you want and go with it. Oh and they typically have a little boom as well. I'm trying to convert them but I figure we all kind of start out with a bass head stage. Even if we don't want to admit it.


haha i def like my bass.....gonna be doing 6 12s in a 4th order. all in a single cab s10 lol


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Low energy storage in the midrange and high force factor?


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Low energy storage in the midrange and high force factor?


Hmmmm. Low energy storage in the midrange. Even with the larger cones typically associated with HE drivers. Maybe those accordion surrounds do a better job in the midrange. I have never really looked at that characteristic. I'll have to see if I can get a few waterfalls. Thanks, I'll take a look.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

The few CSDs of pro 10s and 12s that I have seen have been roughly equal in terms of energy storage to most high end consumer 6s and 7s.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Good to know! The WT3 results showed some ripples in the impedance that looked like ringing or some type of resonance. This was while they were in the kicks. I didn't save the free air measurements but I will pull the driver and see if it is the driver or environment.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

PRODANCE - profesionln svteln a zvukov technika

Test data on pro speakers.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Thanks!


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

These are the WT3 results for the 2118s in the kicks. They are following the free air results pretty closely. The 2118 that went into the left kick measured about 10hz higher on the resonant freq than the right (94hz and 84 hz respectively). Putting them into the kicks didn't seem to move the Fs up much at all. I hope that this means the passage into the frame is open enough (about 5.75" square).

I want to remeasure the FR before posting results. I decided to use the autotune capabilities of REW coupled with the Behringers to remove/minimize any differences from my tuning. Hopefully that will get done this weekend.



















The ripples in the impedance are interesting I'm not sure if they are from the speaker or the environment. I would think they would be from the speaker but with the coupling of the physical to electrical systems going on in a speaker I'm just not sure. I guess the measurements of the other speakers will provide additional insights.

MORE LATER


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

the ripples around the 200hz mark on the drivers (left is the most poignant) scare me. Speaking from personal experience, I'm worried that you're going to have resonance issues there that I'm willing to bet will be very audible. If I were you, I'd be focusing on ways to potentially resolve that by bracing, foam, etc. I don't know what will solve it (if anything) but I would really encourage you to try some things. I spent a solid 2 years trying to fix that issue in my kicks. Wound up taking some various materials and the use of the EQ to knock it down. The biggest game changer for me was switching from Revelators to Illuminators. That nearly absolved the issue altogether.

Just trying to give you a heads up. You may not have any issues and I may be going overboard here, but I'm not going to bet against myself here. 



In other news, I need you to demo the system as it stands next time you're visiting my supervisors.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Erin,

Keep in mind this setup is just for testing. The final install will include a good bit of fiberglass work and LOTS of foam. I do want to get these back out and test them free air. If I remember correctly at least some of these ripples showed up in the free air measurements. Too bad I didn't save them...

I'll be glad to give you a listen but I want to get a better tune on them. The other issue I have is my waveguides showed up and I really want to get them in the car. The mid/midbass shootout may get put on hold while I get the waveguides in. Having the tweets just sitting on the dash for a couple of years now has been a real PITA.

BTW - I sat down with Scot today. The more I work with him the more I respect his abilities.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I actually meant to say I need you to demo my system sometime soon. I still need to make some changes here and there but would like some interim feedback. Next time you're around give me a shout. 

Yea, Scot's a good dude. I honestly haven't dealt with him too much directly but he seems like a good manager. Us lowly engineers don't get to hang with the big boy VP's. 



Oh, duhhh, the thread...
I understand. When you finalize things hopefully those issues will go away. The problems I had were right in the 160-220hz range. I wound up using a combo of wool and polyfill to lessen the resonance effect. I think the odd shape of the enclosure caused the issues. Free-air, the problem was gone. As soon as I put the driver in to the kick again, though, the problem was there. Even if I just placed it in there while running sweeps I could hear it light up when I began to make the seal with the driver to the baffle.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Sorry my bad 

I'd love to listen. Give me a shout at lunch tomorrow. I've got a window between 10:30 and 1:00.

You can even play around with the CDA 117 if you want.


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## cnut334 (Oct 17, 2009)

Nice work on the V SSS!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

PLEASE Klippel the 2118s!


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

I'll get them to Erin in the new year.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Twisted my arm...


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

I keep promising measurements so I will finally deliver. The response is extremely ragged and there is a strong roll off starting at 120 and 140 for the drivers. This is very likely the effects of the car but I am unsure. I have done a good bit of EQing with both manual and automated tuning devices but the results in the 80 to 100 HZ area has been less than stellar. These things have awesome midrange impact but in my install the midbass is currently lacking. I will try a few things with foam to see if I have a resonance that I can tame but at that freq it is highly unlikely. Anyway the measurements are below (green righ speaker blue left speaker):


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Are they stock JBL cones or recones?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

SSSnake said:


> I keep promising measurements so I will finally deliver. The response is extremely ragged and there is a strong roll off starting at 120 and 140 for the drivers. This is very likely the effects of the car but I am unsure.


Mic in near field should help you here.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

As far as I know they are original. 

Near fields are upcoming but this response looks like the previous kicks response and the near fields on those didnt show the nulls


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Bump.

Sell me what you decide not to use...


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Well, either the JBLs or the AEs...I would buy which ever you didn't want.


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## CDjunkie (Nov 14, 2011)

*Subscribed


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Bumpage


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Sorry to leave you guys hanging on this but with the current mounting locations I am still having to eq the crap out of the signal to get a decent response curve. Providing feedback on how each of the drivers perform in this environment would be counterproductive. 

I do have the JBLs sounding decent at this point but I have had to apply so much eq that they are less dynamic than I had hoped. I am looking at using door mounted mids at this point because of all of the issues but the door only allows for shallow mount drivers. No good options at this point. I have an idea for rear mounted midbasses that I am running to ground as well. It all just takes time.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Rear midbasses?

Interesting.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

The geometries up front cause some extreme swings in the FR. To date I can't find a mounting location that reduces the effects to an acceptable level. The first big null is at 80 hz. There is nothing I can do about it from a room treatment perspective (all solutions would be too big) so I have to get creative. With the AE IB 15s in the rear I could open the passband a bit if I could direct the output to the corners of the rear c pillars rather than just through the back seat. This would involve more cutting than I want and could still cause the bass to pull to the rear. So I plan to try midbasses in that location first (temporary boxes). If it works I will mod the subs so they fire through the corner of the rear deck and c pillar. Then I can use the candidate drivers at a higher freq and see how they shake out. If this works the HE drivers should have a significant advantage and the Scans may be up for sale. I need to get this thoroughly tested before I make any committments. 

I also have an idea about a 6th order bandpass enclosure for midbasses mounted in front of the front seats with the ports directing the sound to the kicks for the high tuned freq and the center console for the low freq port. 

A lot of crap to do with not a lot of free time means LONG build cycles.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

You tried the midbasses flat against the firewall?


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Can't really go that route. Even if I cut the firewall, which I don't really want to do, this is a manual tranny and a two way. Not enough real estate


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Possible to build enclosures and put the midbasses under the dash firing in to the dash?


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

bikinpunk said:


> Possible to build enclosures and put the midbasses under the dash firing in to the dash?


I'm planning the same thing but the midbasses will be firing down... Any reason why it should fire into the dash? 

Thanks, 
Kelvin


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

The other issue is that so far anything in the under dash area seems to exhibit these issues. Some locations more than others. No room under the passenger side underdash area. Surprisingly the door location seems to have the least issues. While I have seen similar issues in other installs this is the worst I have ever seen and at 160hz I have to cut nearly 30 db (to be exact it has been anything ranging from 23 to 27). I am considering going to a three way with the midbass in the door but the Scans are too deep, the JBLs, Vifas, and B&Cs too wide and it would be a shame not to use the AEs in the midrange. Lots of problems with very few solutions that don't involve cutting more metal. 

BUMMED


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

How about small enclosures in the rear passenger foot wells, vented into the car frame?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

How about a new car?


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

No chance this is a keeper. It puts a smile on my face every day. At least until I turn on the stereo 

I also have all the parts for my Geddee Lee clones sitting in the shop. I may have to get those finished first...


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Headphones it is! Lol.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

bassfromspace said:


> How about small enclosures in the rear passenger foot wells, vented into the car frame?


This would be a possibility but I could likely execute the sub approach discussed earlier with about as much success. Plus I actually have people that ride in the back seat so the sub route would be less obtrusive.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Maybe you guys can help. The null is at 80 hz. It is deep and broad. So the reflective surface causing issues is about 6.8 ft away from the speaker. That turns out to be the exact distance to the rear seats. Any ideas about how to reduce the reflections off of the rear seat and/or diffuse them. I am beginning to wonder if moving the bottom of the rear seat upright (back support) out would help. I would expect it to reduce the depth of the null and spread it out some. That could be better or worse. Typically I would prefer the null to be narrow but with the geometries I don't think I can make it any more narrow ( can't change the width of the seat/reflector). Thoughts?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Can you fold down the seats just to see what happens?

Edit: what happens when you move the mic throughout the cabin?

Oh, try moving the mic down I height while positioned in the seat area. I'm curious what you'll find. Been meaning to do this myself when I get back home.


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

SSSnake said:


> Maybe you guys can help. The null is at 80 hz. It is deep and broad. So the reflective surface causing issues is about 6.8 ft away from the speaker. That turns out to be the exact distance to the rear seats. Any ideas about how to reduce the reflections off of the rear seat and/or diffuse them. I am beginning to wonder if moving the bottom of the rear seat upright (back support) out would help. I would expect it to reduce the depth of the null and spread it out some. That could be better or worse. Typically I would prefer the null to be narrow but with the geometries I don't think I can make it any more narrow ( can't change the width of the seat/reflector). Thoughts?


Null at 80Hz from your midbasses? Where are those located again, doors? 

Kelvin


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Can you fold down the seats just to see what happens?

Well immediately behind the seats is the baffle for the subs so I would expect the null to move a little lower (more distance) but not much. I can give it a shot and see.

Edit: what happens when you move the mic throughout the cabin?

The null moves. Interestingly enough when I run the sub/mid xover up to 125 hz there is no null (at least at 80hz). The bass pulls to the rear but no significant null.

Null at 80Hz from your midbasses? Where are those located again, doors?

Yes, at 80hz from midbasses (this is the center freq - as mentioned it is fairly wide so I get roll off on both sides). They are in the kicks. If I move to the door the null is not nearly as pronounced and moves up a little in freq.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

The Illums are in! The JBLs are great mids and for a horn system are outstanding but these are completely different beasts. I still have the null  but these things will definitely make you consider subless. The other piece is not so much the sound it makes as the sounds it doesn't. Very little coloration. Besides with these I was able to flush them into the kicks are the extra room down there is much better than the angled kicks. I have more tuning and a grille to build but I don't see these coming out!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

can't say enough great things about the illuminators.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

The only negative I can find is the bolt pattern and I think I can live with it 

They're not coming out anyway.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

And depth...and price.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

price = performance for this guy, though. I think we can all admit that.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Yeah...hard for me to come off of the hip for them considering I don't need their bottom end ability. And the wife is preggo.


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

hear that.
congrats on the little one!


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Thanks man!

I absolutely love the Revelators...and I'm sure the Illuminators are a step up from that.


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## JayinMI (Oct 18, 2008)

thehatedguy said:


> And the wife is preggo.


Con-grat-ulations?

LOL

When are you guys due?

Jay


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Congrats on the little one. 

IMO - they are worth the cost and I am cheap bastage. 

These things are definitely deep but they were easier than the TD6Hs to mount because of the smaller diameter motor. So for my install these are much preferred. 

With the low end capabilities of these things I was able to narrow the dreaded 80 hz null to an acceptable level. That alone would have sold me on these but there is sooooooo much more to like.


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## 24th-Alchemist (Jun 16, 2011)

Late to the party.

I always thought -- apparently naively -- that if I ever got a _V_ I'd be the first person to cut one for audio. This is hard core (although now I see that apparently others have cut _V_'s too). Impeccable looking install. I pulled a '97 Seville STS for 5G that took a HG repair and a lot of junkyard time to bring up to working order, and when I cut that "junker" for front door midbass enclosures I still took flak.

Anyway, are you sure about this: 



> Maybe you guys can help. The null is at 80 hz. It is deep and broad. So the reflective surface causing issues is about 6.8 ft away from the speaker.


I think the reflective surface could be a front window ~3-1/2 ft away. Here's why:

In my car, the passenger window is ~3.75 feet away from the midline of the driver's head. Therefore the reflecting distance from the window back to the drivers head is 2*3.75 = 7.5 ft. For destructive interference we need 180 degree phase so a full wavelength for a destructive window reflection is 2*7.5 = 15 ft. 1100 [ft/s] / 15 [ft] = 73.3 Hz, near to the frequency where I have a "suck out" from the driver's-side midbass, which I take to come from the passenger window as described above.

I think the breadth of the null described in the quote is consistent with the long wavelengths at ~80 Hz. (e.g. 90 Hz is still nearly 180 degrees out of phase).

Unfortunately I don't see an easy traditional EQ way of fixing a reflective null -- certainly not changing drivers. I think a full fix would require a time-domain solution where the reflective wave is actively cancelled by the driver. The illuminators seem ideal for handling the increased excursion demands though -- if the requisite processing is available. Is a carputer involved here and can you do custom time-domain stuff? Otherwise maybe an imprint? I hear impronts take care of time-domain issues such as reflections.


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

anyone in the cullman area?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

Decatur here. 


Sent from my iPhone. Pardon the grammar.


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## treylittlefield (Dec 26, 2009)

damn, GF gotta take a test at wallace state and im gonna be bored for 2 hours. hoping i could catch a demo from you SQ guys


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

24th-Alchemist said:


> Late to the party.
> 
> I always thought -- apparently naively -- that if I ever got a _V_ I'd be the first person to cut one for audio. This is hard core (although now I see that apparently others have cut _V_'s too). Impeccable looking install. I pulled a '97 Seville STS for 5G that took a HG repair and a lot of junkyard time to bring up to working order, and when I cut that "junker" for front door midbass enclosures I still took flak.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the compliments on the V. I could put this one back to stock appearance pretty easily. I'm not sure I would as the stereo is much better now but then again I don't plan on EVER selling this car. 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but you don't measure the distance between the listening position to the reflector and back. You measure the distance from the speaker to the reflective surface. If this distance is one HALF wavelength of the null freq. this combined with the 180 degree phase shift from encountering a denser medium causes the null. 

In one dimension this would cause a null across the entire path. Of course we aren't dealing with one dimension so multipath radiation helps a bit.


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

treylittlefield said:


> damn, GF gotta take a test at wallace state and im gonna be bored for 2 hours. hoping i could catch a demo from you SQ guys


Sorry for not seeing this earlier. I have family in Arab and a buddy with a lake house on Smith lake around Cullman. So next time you have some time give me a scream.


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## mattyjman (Aug 6, 2009)

SSSnake said:


> Sorry for not seeing this earlier. I have family in Arab and a buddy with a lake house on Smith lake around Cullman. So next time you have some time give me a scream.


aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! :laugh:


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## SSSnake (Mar 8, 2007)

Ok I asked for that one


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