# To horn or not to horn? HORN!!!!



## corcraft

If you are tossing around the idea of horns like I have for years but have never listened to a pair and don't think you have the time and/or are intimidated by the mounting.... do yourself a favor... Do It!!!! I just finished installing mine and came really close to quiting because 98* all month , hit a couple speed bumps and I didnt think it would be worth it after all the trouble.... Mine were a little harder than some because I refused to drill into the body for cosmetics and I refuse to drill my car... which was fun for ib and horns! Lol. It was a pain, I'm not gonna sugar coat it, it sucked, I'm too old to be in and out and under a dash that long. But........ I would do it all over again!!!! These things are awesome! I have only had in for an hour and havent even started tuning other than making a couple cuts and I dont see how anyone could go back to tweeters after having a pair. I dont think I ever will unless they just wont fit. Don't get me wrong, I still have a long way to go with tuning but my intitial response is WOW! These babies have so much potential! I wish I didn't wait this long to try a pair. I don't consider myself an audiophile but I do have a lot love for it, have for 20 years and very seldom am I impressed but this time I am. 

If you are tossing around the idea do it! Eric can hook you up and even has a tuning thread on here to point you in the right direction..... I'm about to read it now.


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## truckerfte

Sure, make me feel bad about not getting around to pulling the trigger on a set a couple of weeks ago.


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## XSIV SPL

I guess the application of horns depends upon the desired effect...

I've listened to a few cars with horns and loved them... It can also go very wrong... It's not for everyone, for sure.


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## corcraft

Lol^ true.

Def needs some eq and what is weird is instead of being bummed out about tuning a car like I usually am..... I'm excited about it. The air, the snap of the snare.... everything that is usually so hard to tune in or make sound right is already there. So now I cant wait to dial it in. My car sounds bad right now but the potential is what has me excited. Especially if you like old school funk.... it is freaking awesome with horns even untuned lol. I do have 1 major concern though..... that I am going to kill my hearing.... ears still feel a lil funny from the little bit I listened to last night. I like loud.... and buddy these things are loud!!!! 

On a side note, Volume isnt what I am after but I do like it being there. I didn't think I would like horns that well because I used to be klipsch dealer and wasnt a fan of them. Customers loved them becuase they were loud but I didn't. B&W, paradigm and even infinity were my favorites and what I recommended if asked but even these untuned just have a great canvas to make a work of art imho. Sound nothing like klipsch.

TRUCKERFTE: Do It! I was like you. And it can be a little intimidating when starting to mount but.... Do It!


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## LumbermanSVO

corcraft said:


> Lol^ true.
> 
> Def needs some eq and what is weird is instead of being bummed out about tuning a car like I usually am..... I'm excited about it. The air, the snap of the snare.... everything that is usually so hard to tune in or make sound right is already there. So now I cant wait to dial it in. My car sounds bad right now but the potential is what has me excited. Especially if you like old school funk.... it is freaking awesome with horns even untuned lol. I do have 1 major concern though..... that I am going to kill my hearing.... ears still feel a lil funny from the little bit I listened to last night. I like loud.... and buddy these things are loud!!!!
> 
> On a side note, Volume isnt what I am after but I do like it being there. I didn't think I would like horns that well because I used to be klipsch dealer and wasnt a fan of them. Customers loved them becuase they were loud but I didn't. B&W, paradigm and even infinity were my favorites and what I recommended if asked but even these untuned just have a great canvas to make a work of art imho. Sound nothing like klipsch.
> 
> TRUCKERFTE: Do It! I was like you. And it can be a little intimidating when starting to mount but.... Do It!


I like a much more laid back sound in my home than in the car. In the car I have horns, but in the home I have conventional drivers and not nearly as much power.


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## Mic10is

corcraft said:


> Lol^ true.
> 
> Def needs some eq and what is weird is instead of being bummed out about tuning a car like I usually am..... I'm excited about it. The air, the snap of the snare.... everything that is usually so hard to tune in or make sound right is already there. So now I cant wait to dial it in. My car sounds bad right now but the potential is what has me excited. Especially if you like old school funk.... it is freaking awesome with horns even untuned lol. I do have 1 major concern though..... that I am going to kill my hearing.... ears still feel a lil funny from the little bit I listened to last night. I like loud.... and buddy these things are loud!!!!
> 
> On a side note, Volume isnt what I am after but I do like it being there. I didn't think I would like horns that well because I used to be klipsch dealer and wasnt a fan of them. Customers loved them becuase they were loud but I didn't. B&W, paradigm and even infinity were my favorites and what I recommended if asked but even these untuned just have a great canvas to make a work of art imho. Sound nothing like klipsch.
> 
> TRUCKERFTE: Do It! I was like you. And it can be a little intimidating when starting to mount but.... Do It!



Im only like 2.5hr from you if you needed tuning assistance...I may have a bit of experience tuning horns


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## wheelieking71

Is somebody currently making and selling horns? (sorry, I don't get out much)


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## Blazemore

wheelieking71 said:


> Is somebody currently making and selling horns? (sorry, I don't get out much)


Eric Stevens still sells horns. His tuning guide is stickied at the top.


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## thehatedguy

Bought my first set of horns from Eric in 95 or 96. Used other horns too. Used cones and domes...some really nice cones and domes, but never can escape the horns. The struggle was always real. Currently putting another set in as we speak.


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## corcraft

Mic10is said:


> Im only like 2.5hr from you if you needed tuning assistance...I may have a bit of experience tuning horns


Absolutely! I would be an idiot to pass that up if you're serious you just tell me when you're available.


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## oabeieo

corcraft said:


> Lol^ true.
> 
> Def needs some eq and what is weird is instead of being bummed out about tuning a car like I usually am..... I'm excited about it. The air, the snap of the snare.... everything that is usually so hard to tune in or make sound right is already there. So now I cant wait to dial it in. My car sounds bad right now but the potential is what has me excited. Especially if you like old school funk.... it is freaking awesome with horns even untuned lol. I do have 1 major concern though..... that I am going to kill my hearing.... ears still feel a lil funny from the little bit I listened to last night. I like loud.... and buddy these things are loud!!!!
> 
> On a side note, Volume isnt what I am after but I do like it being there. I didn't think I would like horns that well because I used to be klipsch dealer and wasnt a fan of them. Customers loved them becuase they were loud but I didn't. B&W, paradigm and even infinity were my favorites and what I recommended if asked but even these untuned just have a great canvas to make a work of art imho. Sound nothing like klipsch.
> 
> TRUCKERFTE: Do It! I was like you. And it can be a little intimidating when starting to mount but.... Do It!


Oh man, if your ears hurt you need a tune. It should not be painful. Although we all know they can get down right brutal if un-tamed 

Man honestly, if Mic is willing to tune your car and he's two hrs away I would jump on that man. You'll never get that opportunity again. As a avid stereo geek I'm pretty sure I can say with some deal of certainty he doesn't care about any ghetto **** or wiring so don't be bashful. He will work straight magic for you. And I'm not saying you have ghetto anything, I just know how people are when other go through your work. I'm just saying don't think he will judge your install or let silly worries stop you from it


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## Elgrosso

corcraft said:


> ...If you are tossing around the idea do it! Eric can hook you up and even has a tuning thread on here to point you in the right direction..... I'm about to read it now.


So true! I should have tried even earlier.
I had a pair of ID that I never used for a while, for dumb reasons like not fully convinced of the concept, and a bit afraid of not using them right, even sold them before install.
Then few months ago I was at a point that I really liked my system (3way cones) but just still missed something, something that I only had once with bigger drivers on ghetto door panels: the big great smile.
So I had to try the new ES, without having listened to any before, just based on feedback from here.

I didn't have that magic moment at first, but was certainly surprised by the output.
Then after few hours only of tuning they became crazy good.
It's definitely something else, they're just much more alive, loud and clean, dynamic, impactive, limitless, and I'd say more... realistic.
I don't know exactly what they brought, but it's just much more fun!
Maybe the car reacted well, or maybe the tuning was lucky, but I spend way less time tuning, and much more just enjoying them.
In fact I kept my non perfect tune for maybe 2 months, just barely try small adjustments.

I had so many plans in mind before with the cones, all kind of setup/drivers to try etc.
They definitely changed my perspective.

So now, once the weather gets friendly again, I'll work on some 8" midbass...


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## corcraft

oabeieo said:


> Oh man, if your ears hurt you need a tune. It should not be painful. Although we all know they can get down right brutal if un-tamed
> 
> Man honestly, if Mic is willing to tune your car and he's two hrs away I would jump on that man. You'll never get that opportunity again. As a avid stereo geek I'm pretty sure I can say with some deal of certainty he doesn't care about any ghetto **** or wiring so don't be bashful. He will work straight magic for you. And I'm not saying you have ghetto anything, I just know how people are when other go through your work. I'm just saying don't think he will judge your install or let silly worries stop you from it



Lol. I def need tuning thats a understatement. But ears were numb not hurt and was bc of the volume level I was listening.... full tilt in a tiny cabin= crazy... about as loud as a Ted Nugent concert if you have ever been to 1.... and if you haven't I dont recommend(no offense to Nugent fans). I agree with you about mic I will take that opportunity if it arrives.


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## truckerfte

corcraft said:


> TRUCKERFTE: Do It! I was like you. And it can be a little intimidating when starting to mount but.... Do It!


Lol, I'm not intimidated by the install.....the original plan involved a $350 car. No worries about cutting holes and screwing things up. 

What had happened is, I was all set to send Mr.Stevens some money, and one of the OKC guys made me an offer o couldn't refuse. Hertz Millie comps,ml2800, lxr5.1, and a bit one for about a hundred bucks more than a nice used lxr goes for. No way I was gonna pass that up. 

Sick part is, today I was thinking that all that nice **** is gonna go into the cheap car, and horns for my newly acquired "granny car" ( Buick Century) . Have you seen the dash on those things? Wide, deep, flat, and nothing but air from the tranny hump to the ashtray. Big bodies no problem. Was building a box for the ml, and realized it would fit under the dash. Lol. Just gotta figure out where ti shoehorn the B&c 8nld51s. (Already bought, shows how close I am in the decision process)


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## truckerfte

Seriously? That was my 666th post? Lol


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## corcraft

Elgrosso said:


> So true! I should have tried even earlier.
> I had a pair of ID that I never used for a while, for dumb reasons like not fully convinced of the concept, and a bit afraid of not using them right, even sold them before install.
> Then few months ago I was at a point that I really liked my system (3way cones) but just still missed something, something that I only had once with bigger drivers on ghetto door panels: the big great smile.
> So I had to try the new ES, without having listened to any before, just based on feedback from here.
> 
> I didn't have that magic moment at first, but was certainly surprised by the output.
> Then after few hours only of tuning they became crazy good.
> It's definitely something else, they're just much more alive, loud and clean, dynamic, impactive, limitless, and I'd say more... realistic.
> I don't know exactly what they brought, but it's just much more fun!
> Maybe the car reacted well, or maybe the tuning was lucky, but I spend way less time tuning, and much more just enjoying them.
> In fact I kept my non perfect tune for maybe 2 months, just barely try small adjustments.
> 
> I had so many plans in mind before with the cones, all kind of setup/drivers to try etc.
> They definitely changed my perspective.
> 
> So now, once the weather gets friendly again, I'll work on some 8" midbass...


Exactly!!!! I agree 100%. Have had a few pair myself. And thats what I mean by intimidating... installing correctly. A little hard to square an object in an unsquare object.... much less 2 objects parallel then on top of that not drilling holes. And Matt even said himself that he didnt like horns at 1st because he didnt install correctly. So I'm like thats a lot of work to do and fail and even if I dont fail will I like?.... and if I dont like did i not install correctly? Lol. But well worth it! Thats why I started this thread because maybe other people are like we were and give up before they get started. And dont get me wrong about the "magic moment" I have a long ways to go but it's what is already there that impressed me.... And it is the opposite of what usually happens. Usually I listen to a decent speaker and Im like yeah they sound good but before the 1st song is over I hear more of what they dont do right than what they do do right.... or what doesn't sound "real". With these I was like... They need a lot of tuning but before the 1st song was over i was amazed by what they did right and how real they sound.... that is what got me.


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## Eric Stevens

Thanks for sharing and all the positive input. Installing horns is actually pretty easy once you get an install or two under the belt, its the first one thats difficult because you are figuring it out as you go along. Same wioth set up and tuning, it gets easier as you do it more.


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## corcraft

Eric Stevens said:


> Thanks for sharing and all the positive input. Installing horns is actually pretty easy once you get an install or two under the belt, its the first one thats difficult because you are figuring it out as you go along. Same wioth set up and tuning, it gets easier as you do it more.


Yep, just like anything.... its the unknown that gets you. I will def do again now that I did the 1st one. As soon as I have a chance I'm gonna see if they'll fit in my trucks. And the tuning Im not worried about at all. I'm excited about it bc so much is already there.... all that I have to do is color inside the lines Not saying that arrogantly, I would take yours or mics help and opinions any day but that is with anything caraudio related, not just horns. I'm just saying the same thing that I did earlier.... the pieces that I have such a hard time finding are already there... should be fun to finish the picture.


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## adrianp89

Reading this makes me miss my horns.

What type of power are you guys running to them? 

I used to have 125watts on tap per side for them and it was absolutely brutal, but perfect for tailgating when I was in college. 

I could use the power from MS-8 but that would only be 18 watts with a 4 ohm driver.


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## corcraft

25w per side and by far loudest car i have had my butt in.... excluding spl vehicles but full range music.


And gains All The Way Down on amp but high input voltage.


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## thehatedguy

The realism is what hooked me. Combined with high efficiency cones...something else.

Don't care how much power you dump on low efficiency speakers, it's not the same.

I may stray for a bit, but always come home to the horns, Eric's horns.


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## bigbubba

You guys are killing me. I always loved the sound of the horns in my car but no matter what I did I could not get the imaging from the passenger side of the car past the middle of the dash. I always thought that once I understood how to tune better I might go back and try them again. Maybe after this season I'll kick that idea around some more. I still have my horns and all the brackets. Would have to buy some more drivers since I put those on my home speakers.


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## Mic10is

corcraft said:


> Absolutely! I would be an idiot to pass that up if you're serious you just tell me when you're available.


PM me details about your system and we can try and work out a Sunday or something


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## oabeieo

thehatedguy said:


> The realism is what hooked me. Combined with high efficiency cones...something else.
> 
> Don't care how much power you dump on low efficiency speakers, it's not the same.
> 
> I may stray for a bit, but always come home to the horns, Eric's horns.



For life , 
I'll be 99 years old in with the hearing loss that I have I'll be able to turn it up loud enough and then I'll have horns made as hearing aids to go around my head Lol 


The other night I asked my wife which drivers I should try next , she said Andy just put all of them in. Lol hehehe


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## Eric Stevens

bigbubba said:


> You guys are killing me. I always loved the sound of the horns in my car but no matter what I did I could not get the imaging from the passenger side of the car past the middle of the dash. I always thought that once I understood how to tune better I might go back and try them again. Maybe after this season I'll kick that idea around some more. I still have my horns and all the brackets. Would have to buy some more drivers since I put those on my home speakers.


From Drivers seat or passenger seat?

Early reflections off the center console or similar can really screw placement of images up. When you have issues like this you have to approach as a problem solving issue rather than trying to tune it out. I like to work with something absorptive to get rid of early reflections and move it around and try isolate the cause. After than you can figure out the best permanent solution.


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## DBlevel

Started running horns first of the year and they've really grown on me. 

Might start playing with a couple different drivers on the full bodies this winter.......


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## LumbermanSVO

thehatedguy said:


> The realism is what hooked me. Combined with high efficiency cones...something else.


The horn/Audax 7 combo is out of this world.


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## Elgrosso

LumbermanSVO said:


> The horn/Audax 7 combo is out of this world.


The PR170? Always wanted to try this one. But I'd need another midbass...
Next time I go to France I'll probably bring back a few


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## corcraft

LumbermanSVO said:


> The horn/Audax 7 combo is out of this world.


Define. Part #? Parameters?


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## LumbermanSVO

These ones: https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/pro-sound/audax-pr170m0-6.5-midrange-100db/


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## XSIV SPL

I get the concept here, but horn efficiency will never replace good cones, domes and ample power when it comes to realism.

Please don't take this the wrong way-

Horns can deliver a "live PA" experience at a high efficiency level which is enjoyable to many, and if that's what you want, go for it!

Disclaimer: Please don't try analyzing the quality or realism of a recording based upon how it sounds while played with such a system.


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## Eric Stevens

XSIV SPL said:


> I get the concept here, but horn efficiency will never replace good cones, domes and ample power when it comes to realism.
> 
> Please don't take this the wrong way-
> 
> Horns can deliver a "live PA" experience at a high efficiency level which is enjoyable to many, and if that's what you want, go for it!
> 
> Disclaimer: Please don't try analyzing the quality or realism of a recording based upon how it sounds while played with such a system.


Pretty strong statement without any supporting factual data or arguments. 

In your opinion, what are the performance factors or criteria that are necessary for a system to create realism? 

You do realize that most recording studios main play back monitors utilize horns for at least the mid and high frequency ranges and some for midbass and subwoofers also. So if its good enough to analyze and mix a recording dont ya think its good enough to listen to it also.

Sound is a lot like food, we all have different tastes. I get horns might not suit your taste in music reproduction, but to make statements such as you have, well................


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## XSIV SPL

Eric Stevens said:


> Pretty strong statement without any supporting factual data or arguments.
> 
> In your opinion, what are the performance factors or criteria that are necessary for a system to create realism?
> 
> You do realize that most recording studios main play back monitors utilize horns for at least the mid and high frequency ranges and some for midbass and subwoofers also. So if its good enough to analyze and mix a recording dont ya think its good enough to listen to it also.
> 
> Sound is a lot like food, we all have different tastes. I get horns might not suit your taste in music reproduction, but to make statements such as you have, well................


No, I do not realize that "most" recording studios main playback monitors utilize anything of the the sort that you assert. How many studios have you visited?

Of the ones I've seen, there have never been ANY horns in the mixing room, and I've visited several.

Please tell me more about this, because I'm apparently missing out on some pretty important stuff according to you.

Being the founder of Stevens audio wins you no credibility with me... I can't even find you. Educate me, please...

Given your degree of success, is it possible that the reason I can't even find you on the Internet is merely because you've accomplished nothing?

Prove me wrong... Give me your website url and make me wrong. If I'm wrong, I'll have a full apology waiting for you.

In the meantime, I think you're full of ****.


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## ca90ss

XSIV SPL said:


> No, I do not realize that "most" recording studios main playback monitors utilize anything of the the sort that you assert. How many studios have you visited?
> 
> Of the ones I've seen, there have never been ANY horns in the mixing room, and I've visited several.
> 
> Please tell me more about this, because I'm apparently missing out on some pretty important stuff according to you.
> 
> Being the founder of Stevens audio wins you no credibility with me... I can't even find you. Educate me, please...
> 
> Given your degree of success, is it possible that the reason I can't even find you on the Internet is merely because you've accomplished nothing?
> 
> Prove me wrong... Give me your website url and make me wrong. If I'm wrong, I'll have a full apology waiting for you.
> 
> In the meantime, I think you're full of ****.


It would be wise for you to stop posting now before you further embarrass yourself.


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## ca90ss

XSIV SPL said:


> I'm aware of the past... What's happening now?


What have you done recently that's noteworthy and gives you any credibility?


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## T3mpest

XSIV SPL said:


> Wow, are you telling me that you found credibility for Stevens audio somewhere?
> 
> I'm aware of the past... What's happening now?


If your aware of the past, then you know he used to own Image Dynamics, back when it was at the height of it's popularity.. So basically, your making yourself look silly treating him like he has no credibility. "oh your new company hasn't become popular yet.. So your 20+ years in the industry now has no credibility" GTFO of here with that, it's idiocy.

That's like saying Michael Jordan wasn't much of an athlete when he went to play baseball, since, he wasn't very good. Or Tom Anderson isn't much of a business man.. Doesn't even work anymore now, what a bum... (founder of myspace, sold it off and now doesn't do anything)


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## ca90ss

XSIV SPL said:


> Quite a number of things, actually... In my everyday life performing engineering for a world leading OEM of CNC machine tools, my hands are involved in developing and defining processes for the production of many things, including hardware for medical implants, weapons and even space travel.
> 
> If you must know, my signature is in a log book riding around Mars on the curiosity rover.
> 
> What have you done lately, other than threaten me for no good reason?


So how does any of that relate to audio or the current discussion in any way and how exactly have I threatened you?


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## XSIV SPL

Look, it's late and there's clearly a misunderstanding here... I bid you a good evening.


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## Eric Stevens

XSIV SPL said:


> Being the founder of Stevens audio wins you no credibility with me... I can't even find you. Educate me, please...
> 
> Given your degree of success, is it possible that the reason I can't even find you on the Internet is merely because you've accomplished nothing?
> 
> Prove me wrong... Give me your website url and make me wrong. If I'm wrong, I'll have a full apology waiting for you.
> 
> In the meantime, I think you're full of ****.


Well Stevens Audio is just launching so no you wont find much, but I am the founder of Image dynamics and have been engineering speakers for 25 years now.

The rest doenst deserve or warrant a response,


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## danssoslow

Anyone remember the Bud Light commercial with Les Paul? This feels like a more aggravating version of it.


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## corcraft

^ridiculous!!! There is 1 in every crowd. And I am def a nobody and havent accomplished anything in the audio world buttt..... I am a sound critic. Always have been and I agree people have different taste but "realism".... lets just say that I dont think he has ever heard a pair of horns in a car. I probally shouldnt have even said that because I'm sure I will get a nasty reply too, heck its probably a set signed and riding around mars. Now.... listening to a pair of horns somewhere and drawing the conclusion that they don't sound real.... I can understand that. Oldschool full range boxes and even higher end home towers that I have listened too I could see how one coulld draw that conclusion of not as real a domes buttttttt...... in a car, No!!!! I used to roll my eyes when a customer would purchase a home horn speaker over a cone/ dome. I always assumed that they were just liking the output bc they didn't sound "real" to me. But now 15 years later after installing these.... untuned mind you, I have a totally different view point. If they can sound this real in a car they can at home.... perhaps I just never listened to the right pair idk but what I am trying to say is before listening to these untuned STEVENS horns I had a similiar opinion but I didnt voice it because I never heard a pair and we all know what ass.u.me does and that may have happened here.

The facts are: 
1)they impressed me so much of how real they sound with just plug and play (and I have listened to a lot of good systems that was lacking this quality) that I started a thread of it to try and help others that may be in the same boat that I was.
2) Eric doesnt have anything on mars that I know of and he doesn't need anyone to defend him either. His accomplishments speak enough on their on and I would have said every member on this form could attest to that but now I guess its every member minus 1. ES is NOT God but if he says something in this field then listening to what he has to say is in your best interest.
3) This was a nice discussion and I don't see why on earth someone gets off by trying to call others out. I would like to think that we are mostly adults, why muddy up a thread???? And my damn thread at that! If you have an opinion by all means state it and if you have a strong opinion then start your own thread, blog, whatever, but don't go making false statements and trying to call others out.

And lastly, idk why I wasted my time typing this because Im sure I will get a nasty response back and I can say for certain before anyone else does that no1 will be impressed by me


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## truckerfte

XSIV SPL said:


> Being the founder of Stevens audio wins you no credibility with me... I can't even find you. Educate me, please...
> 
> Given your degree of success, is it possible that the reason I can't even find you on the Internet is merely because you've accomplished nothing?
> 
> Prove me wrong... Give me your website url and make me wrong. If I'm wrong, I'll have a full apology waiting for you.
> 
> In the meantime, I think you're full of ****.


You do realize you are talking to the founder of Image Dynamics, right? Wtf does a website have to do with proving anything? Look around, this whole section is built around his product, and the companies that came after him. Not only is he still producing a product that stands out largely unchanged since the '90's, he still actively supports his customer base....here.


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## danssoslow

corcraft said:


> And lastly, idk why I wasted my time typing this because Im sure I will get a nasty response back and I can say for certain before anyone else does that no1 will be impressed by me


I wouldn't sell your self so short. It is admissions like these that could very well make someone on the fence about trying horns finally decide to take the plunge. If that isn't an impression, then I don't know what an impression is.


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## wheelieking71

danssoslow said:


> I wouldn't sell your self so short. It is admissions like these that could very well make someone on the fence about trying horns finally decide to take the plunge. If that isn't an impression, then I don't know what an impression is.


Exactly. I have personally heard less than 5 cars utilizing horns. And, truth be told, I hated the horns in every single one of them. 

BUT! I was never in control of the volume, and/or the tune. It seems all the demo'er wanted to do was demonstrate how loud their horns could get. Well, duh, yea, I get it, horns are loud. 

I would like to try horns once. Number one reason for me is to get a crossover out of the vocal range. And out of the area where the meat of most musical content is located. What is the lowest frequency a guy can realistically get away crossing a good set of horns at? Taking in to consideration, said "guy" does not listen nearly as loudly as he did when his ears were 20 years younger.


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## truckerfte

If I recall my conversation with Mr Stevens, 800 up on the full bodies, 1200 up on minis.


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## dgage

XSIV SPL said:


> No, I do not realize that "most" recording studios main playback monitors utilize anything of the the sort that you assert. How many studios have you visited?
> 
> Of the ones I've seen, there have never been ANY horns in the mixing room, and I've visited several.
> 
> Please tell me more about this, because I'm apparently missing out on some pretty important stuff according to you.
> 
> Being the founder of Stevens audio wins you no credibility with me... I can't even find you. Educate me, please...
> 
> Given your degree of success, is it possible that the reason I can't even find you on the Internet is merely because you've accomplished nothing?
> 
> Prove me wrong... Give me your website url and make me wrong. If I'm wrong, I'll have a full apology waiting for you.
> 
> In the meantime, I think you're full of ****.


For my home theater, I run JTR 212s, which are high-efficiency horn speakers using the $700 BMS 4594 coaxial compression driver and I love the detail and capability of the upper range and midrange. I tell people with my speakers you can turn them up and you'll be unhappy before they will.

I've also heard the JBL M2 Studio Reference Monitor, which is the new darling of studios as it is supposed to be one of the most accurate speakers ever made and at $15,000 a pair with official Crown amps and DSP, they do sound really good. 

I've heard electrostatics and line arrays and speakers of all different types and in all different types of rooms. I've also heard my JTR 212s in other rooms and besides confirming how much I like it, it also let me know how much the room can change the sound of a speaker.

And based on what you just said, especially that last line, you might want to look in the mirror and open your mind some.

Edit: I see you're on SoCal, you might want to attend THE Show Newport next year as there are speakers of all sorts for audiophiles to choose from. I exhibited my subs there last year and hope to have my speakers (horn-loaded ribbon) done this fall so I can exhibit again next year.


----------



## bigbubba

Eric Stevens said:


> From Drivers seat or passenger seat?
> 
> Early reflections off the center console or similar can really screw placement of images up. When you have issues like this you have to approach as a problem solving issue rather than trying to tune it out. I like to work with something absorptive to get rid of early reflections and move it around and try isolate the cause. After than you can figure out the best permanent solution.


Sitting in the driver seat. Say if I was playing the seven snare hit track, the last 2 hits would end up in the passenger side kick panel.

During the time I had the horns in the car, the mini's and the full size, I also changed the center console. The car came with a console that connected with the dash and blocked a lot of the passenger side of the lower dash. I then cut a large portion of the console down to open that area up with little difference. I'm definitely thinking of trying it again cause I loved the way sounded.


----------



## JPOSEY

I love horns. I have Klipsch Forte II's in my media room. They definitely accentuate the mid range. I've never utilized horns in my vehicle due, but I would never knock it before I tried it. I will say, Eric Stevens is a very accomplished speaker designer and I've always been impressed with ID products. They always seem to me to be very similar to JL Audio in their philosophy. Great sounding products that could be used in a variety of applications.


----------



## Eric Stevens

bigbubba said:


> Sitting in the driver seat. Say if I was playing the seven snare hit track, the last 2 hits would end up in the passenger side kick panel.
> 
> During the time I had the horns in the car, the mini's and the full size, I also changed the center console. The car came with a console that connected with the dash and blocked a lot of the passenger side of the lower dash. I then cut a large portion of the console down to open that area up with little difference. I'm definitely thinking of trying it again cause I loved the way sounded.



Ahhh thats an easy one to fix, its the phase relationship between the horn and midbass causing frequency steering. What you do is reverse polarity of both horns. 

There is more that can be done, I would suggest closly following the tuning thread stickied and if you need assistance because of difficulty ask me for assistance.


----------



## wheelieking71

So, if a guy wants to try horns, but has no desire for their potential output.
Or desire to use an ultra-highly efficient mid-bass driver to balance the front end.
Can he simply tone the power to the horns down?

The planned mid-bass would be a pair of SI TM6.5's, each seeing about 100watts.
Would a pair of horns, off about 30watts pair well with them?
Vehicle in question = 2004 Dodge 3500


----------



## Mic10is

wheelieking71 said:


> So, if a guy wants to try horns, but has no desire for their potential output.
> Or desire to use an ultra-highly efficient mid-bass driver to balance the front end.
> Can he simply tone the power to the horns down?
> 
> The planned mid-bass would be a pair of SI TM6.5's, each seeing about 100watts.
> Would a pair of horns, off about 30watts pair well with them?
> Vehicle in question = 2004 Dodge 3500


to help compensate or offset the efficiency differences between HF and conventional drivers the recommended power ratio horns:mids:sub has been 1:3:5

you can always just attenuate the horns more in the level matching stage if needed.

my last set up was a JL900/5 bridged to the horns so about 200rms with the sub channel to a single 10 and then a 600/4 bridged so about 300rms to the mids. horns were then attenuated around 6db in DSP to get the levels right


----------



## ca90ss

30w will be way more than enough power to keep up with the TM6.5's. I have 30w on my horns with 300w on my midrange and mid bass drivers and it will do >120db full range with power to spare on the horns.


----------



## corcraft

Oh my!!!!! Not to bring up the old and no disrespect but now I see why Eric came up with the name "Image Dynamics"! with just polarity checks/ flips, this is killer imaging! No delay on mids yet and I would still go as far as to say, the best imaging that I have accomplished in this 20yr on and off hobby of mine.... somehow its just more defined.


----------



## Guest

XSIV SPL said:


> No, I do not realize that "most" recording studios main playback monitors utilize anything of the the sort that you assert. How many studios have you visited?
> 
> Of the ones I've seen, there have never been ANY horns in the mixing room, and I've visited several.
> 
> Please tell me more about this, because I'm apparently missing out on some pretty important stuff according to you.
> 
> Being the founder of Stevens audio wins you no credibility with me... I can't even find you. Educate me, please...
> 
> Given your degree of success, is it possible that the reason I can't even find you on the Internet is merely because you've accomplished nothing?
> 
> Prove me wrong... Give me your website url and make me wrong. If I'm wrong, I'll have a full apology waiting for you.
> 
> In the meantime, I think you're full of ****.



Are you freaking kidding me.....????

Sir your statement above has just cemented your complete and utter ignorance !!!

Eric is a Legend of mobile audio, one of the finest speaker designers of our time and a VERY successful entrepreneur... 

Please do some research before shooting off your mouth... WOW


----------



## XSIV SPL

I guess if I were an ID fanboy, I'd have known all about Eric. As far as I'm concerned, I've auditioned ID products and they didn't impress me. If I'd have been aware of Eric's legend status, I might have worded things differently, or not, but thanks for informing me that I've insulted a legend, and that I'm utterly ignorant.

As harshly as you denounce me, I must ask you... are YOU using any of his creations in your Sinfoni-powered build?

Honestly, driving ID drivers with Sinfoni amps would be an instant downgrade of potential.


----------



## Guest

XSIV SPL said:


> I guess if I were an ID fanboy, I'd have known all about Eric. As far as I'm concerned, I've auditioned ID products and they didn't impress me. If I'd have been aware of Eric's legend status, I might have worded things differently, or not, but thanks for informing me that I've insulted a legend, and that I'm utterly ignorant.
> 
> As harshly as you denounce me, I must ask you... are YOU using any of his creations in your Sinfoni-powered build?


Friend, I've used numerous Image Dynamics products over the years... ALL have been fantastic... 

I would use his new items in a heartbeat .... no doubt about it...

Great deal of respect for Eric... a true entrepreneur that took an idea and changed an Industry !

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## truckerfte

XSIV SPL said:


> As harshly as you denounce me, I must ask you... are YOU using any of his creations in your Sinfoni-powered build?


His denouncement of you has more to do with you stepping on your dick than what he is or isn't using now. 

What does his using or not using Eric's product have to do with Eric's rightfully deserved status in the industry?


----------



## Guest

Ignorant
[ig-ner-uh nt] 
adjective
1.
lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned.

2.
lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact.

adjective
3.
uninformed; unaware.
4.
due to or showing lack of knowledge or training:
an ignorant statement.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## XSIV SPL

So we disagree... Good luck!

Are we done with insulting each other ?

So let's go back to the OP discussion on horns...

Love 'em, hate em, they will never be included in a supposed properly planned reference system, simply because they are designed for PA efficiency, and not sound quality.

When it comes to horns, they have impact and dynamics, but unless you are at a concert, nobody wants to experience horns daily...


----------



## ca90ss

XSIV SPL said:


> Love 'em, hate em, they will never be included in a supposed properly planned reference system, simply because they are designed for PA efficiency, and not sound quality.
> 
> When it comes to horns, they have impact and dynamics, but unless you are at a concert, nobody wants to experience horns daily...


----------



## Eric Stevens

XSIV SPL said:


> So let's go back to the OP discussion on horns...
> 
> .


A discussion is an excange of ideas and facts or data, its even okay if they are opossing and dont agree. Your statements however are opinion stated as fact which is not a welcome part of any proper discusson.

Your opinion is baseless, you do not state or reference any facts, or factual data, draw no reasonable conclusions based upon said facts or data. Therefore the comments made previously by others arent really insults, they are facts based upon your actions.


----------



## dgage

XSIV SPL said:


> So we disagree... Good luck!
> 
> Are we done with insulting each other ?
> 
> So let's go back to the OP discussion on horns...
> 
> Love 'em, hate em, they will never be included in a supposed properly planned reference system, simply because they are designed for PA efficiency, and not sound quality.
> 
> When it comes to horns, they have impact and dynamics, but unless you are at a concert, nobody wants to experience horns daily...


Attend the Rocky Mountain Audiofest this year or THE Show Newport in LA and listen to some good horns, namely JBL or JTR. I've heard the venerable B&W 903, amazing Gallo Reference 5LS, top of the line electrostats, and many other speakers and I doubt I will ever switch away from a high-quality horn driver. Granted I didn't much care for Klipsch horns as I found them fatiguing but there are many different options out there. 

You really should stop as you are only showing how uninformed you are about some of the amazing solutions out there. From the crazy JBL 4722n speaker that is designed for a cinema but many people have used in their theater rooms for amazing dynamics that are amazing with movies and really darn good with music, especially considering their ~$1200 street price. Then there are the aforementioned JTR 212 HTR or 215s, which the company JTR started from the pro side and then transitioned to the home theater side and has some amazingly dynamic offerings that don't give up any detail or audiophile qualities to ANY speaker. Finally, you have one of the leaders in the industry in JBL that have some great offerings for home, cinema, or studio. And yes, I'm sure many a studio runs JBLs, especially the new M2 Reference Studio Monitor, which is garnering all sorts of praise.

So I recommend you step away from the keyboard and open your eyes and ears to the many outstanding offerings that you simply have no clue about. 

David


----------



## dgage

Eric, while you're here, do you have any current horn bodies that will mate up to my 1.4" BMS 4594 coaxial compression drivers. I love the detail of that driver on my home theater JTR 212 and would at least like to see how it measures in the car. I have some of the Veritas horns with adapters but there isn't a smooth transition with the adapter and I expect that will cause all sorts of anomalies. Thanks.


----------



## strohw

Just a friendly reminder that this forum does support an ignore list. Click User CP at the top left and about half way down the options click Edit Ignore List.


----------



## cmusic

Back in 1998 I had ID minis in my competition car. I installed and tuned them myself. I had listened to many systems with horns, including ones from ID, Veritas, USD, and homemade horns. Some sounded horrible, some sounded good, sound sounded amazing. The problem with horns at that time was they were so new, people did not really know their traits and how to get the best out of them. I don't remember how many HLCD systems I heard that were in the $5000 and up price range that sounded horrible. I also ran into several SQ judges that had heard so many bad HLCD systems, they automatically cringed when they got into my car. 

However my ID Minis sounded wonderful after I got them properly installed and tuned. At that time too many people used tips and techniques from other people, and that did not work in their systems. The resulting nasally and bright sound was the result. Most thought that was the way they were supposed to sound. They just paid a bunch of money for the best HLCDs on the market and just accepted the sound they produced right out of the box was "great". In truth they did not know what great was or how to get it. 

I simply treated my HLCDs as regular speakers when tuning. I adjusted my gains to level match the horns to the midbasses and subs, and used the eq to adjust the tonality for a natural sound. I had several judges and other people tell me that my HLCDs were the best sounding HLCD they had ever heard. I did not do anything but treat them like a regular speaker when tuning my system. I did not slap them in the car and accept "that's the way they are supposed to sound" out of the box. 

It's been almost 20 years since I had my HLCDs. I don't know if I will ever used them again, but I would not be hesitant to do so.


----------



## oabeieo

cmusic said:


> Back in 1998 I had ID minis in my competition car. I installed and tuned them myself. I had listened to many systems with horns, including ones from ID, Veritas, USD, and homemade horns. Some sounded horrible, some sounded good, sound sounded amazing. The problem with horns at that time was they were so new, people did not really know their traits and how to get the best out of them. I don't remember how many HLCD systems I heard that were in the $5000 and up price range that sounded horrible. I also ran into several SQ judges that had heard so many bad HLCD systems, they automatically cringed when they got into my car.
> 
> However my ID Minis sounded wonderful after I got them properly installed and tuned. At that time too many people used tips and techniques from other people, and that did not work in their systems. The resulting nasally and bright sound was the result. Most thought that was the way they were supposed to sound. They just paid a bunch of money for the best HLCDs on the market and just accepted the sound they produced right out of the box was "great". In truth they did not know what great was or how to get it.
> 
> I simply treated my HLCDs as regular speakers when tuning. I adjusted my gains to level match the horns to the midbasses and subs, and used the eq to adjust the tonality for a natural sound. I had several judges and other people tell me that my HLCDs were the best sounding HLCD they had ever heard. I did not do anything but treat them like a regular speaker when tuning my system. I did not slap them in the car and accept "that's the way they are supposed to sound" out of the box.
> 
> It's been almost 20 years since I had my HLCDs. I don't know if I will ever used them again, but I would not be hesitant to do so.



That's a good story , reminds me of a lot of my customers.

I've only sold maybe 25-30 sets of horns total and installed roughly half of them for my customers throughout the last 25 years. 

One thing that was common among all of them was I would tune them they would sound great and a few months down the road like clockwork they would come back and wonder why they were too harsh after they tried ajustments and had forgotten how to get back to my first tune , and literally all I would do would be turn the gain down about 10db on the horns and everything was back to normal...

Seems it's very very common for first time horn users to over gain them because they get loud. Not knowing they will still get loud with levels set correctly. 

I'm sure everyone that heard there cars with gain too high was impressed with the volume , but complain about being scratchy or what not. And the first few months most people do the brunt of there "demos" leaving a whole bunch of people with a bad impression.


----------



## Eric Stevens

dgage said:


> Eric, while you're here, do you have any current horn bodies that will mate up to my 1.4" BMS 4594 coaxial compression drivers. I love the detail of that driver on my home theater JTR 212 and would at least like to see how it measures in the car. I have some of the Veritas horns with adapters but there isn't a smooth transition with the adapter and I expect that will cause all sorts of anomalies. Thanks.


I have some of the original fiberglass horns that can be easily modified for a 1.4" throat. Thsi can be done as a straight or 90 degree entrance.


----------



## XSIV SPL

Eric Stevens said:


> A discussion is an excange of ideas and facts or data, its even okay if they are opossing and dont agree. Your statements however are opinion stated as fact which is not a welcome part of any proper discusson.
> 
> Your opinion is baseless, you do not state or reference any facts, or factual data, draw no reasonable conclusions based upon said facts or data. Therefore the comments made previously by others arent really insults, they are facts based upon your actions.


Eric, now that I've been properly informed of your legend status, I'm still waiting for you to factually validate your claim that horns are used on the mixing side of the studio. I will agree that you will find them in various amps scattered around the recording side, but never where the final track is mixed, which was my assertion, and which I believe to be true.

My "opinion" is not and never has been baseless. Horns, as far as I'm aware, are not included in so-called "reference" systems. By nature of design and response, how could they be?

Respectfully...


----------



## dgage

What and how many studios have you been in to validate that claim? And what speaker systems did they have?


----------



## subwoofery

XSIV SPL said:


> Eric, now that I've been properly informed of your legend status, I'm still waiting for you to factually validate your claim that horns are used on the mixing side of the studio. I will agree that you will find them in various amps scattered around the recording side, but never where the final track is mixed, which was my assertion, and which I believe to be true.
> 
> My "opinion" is not and never has been baseless. Horns, as far as I'm aware, are not included in so-called "reference" systems. By nature of design and response, how could they be?
> 
> Respectfully...


Horn + Studio + recording in Google image... You'll find some 

Kelvin


----------



## dgage

And here are some links I just pulled up for the JBL M2 Studio Reference Monitor that seems to be a recent popular one that I've heard personally and can attest to its accuracy and output capability. I wouldn't run it without a sub system but it has strong output down into the 30 Hz range. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grRs7vdYkcI
https://wsdg.com/ellis-marsalis-cen...bl-professional-m2-master-reference-monitors/
Belmont University Reopens Legendary Columbia Studio A with HARMANâ€™s JBL M2 Master Reference Monitors | Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers
McGill University Adds Harmanâ€™s JBL M2 Master Reference Monitors | Mixonline
JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor Review - Audiophile Nirvana
JBL M2 Master Reference Monitors | Hi-Fi | News | AVHub
Bruce Botnick | HARMAN Professional Solutions
Victorian Police Forensic Audio Unit choose JBL M2 Master Reference Monitors - FRONT of HOUSE
Legendary Engineer and Producer Bruce Botnick Outfits His Studio with JBL Professional - Lighting&Sound America Online - News
Kenny Mixx Steps Up His Game with Harmanâ€™s JBL M2 Master Reference Monitors - ETNow.com
Deluxe Toronto Demonstrates Commitment to World-Class Quality, Outfits New Facility with JBL M2 Master Reference Monitors, Crown Amplifiers and BSS Audio Processing | BSS Networked Audio Systems


----------



## cmusic

XSIV SPL said:


> Eric, now that I've been properly informed of your legend status, I'm still waiting for you to factually validate your claim that horns are used on the mixing side of the studio. I will agree that you will find them in various amps scattered around the recording side, but never where the final track is mixed, which was my assertion, and which I believe to be true.
> 
> My "opinion" is not and never has been baseless. Horns, as far as I'm aware, are not included in so-called "reference" systems. By nature of design and response, how could they be?
> 
> Respectfully...


We're still waiting for you to validate that you have personally been to every mastering studio in the world to check if they are using horns or not.


----------



## Guest

wheelieking71 said:


> So, if a guy wants to try horns, but has no desire for their potential output.
> Or desire to use an ultra-highly efficient mid-bass driver to balance the front end.
> Can he simply tone the power to the horns down?
> 
> The planned mid-bass would be a pair of SI TM6.5's, each seeing about 100watts.
> Would a pair of horns, off about 30watts pair well with them?
> Vehicle in question = 2004 Dodge 3500


Those SI TM65's look to be a good option for pairing with HLCD's.... ability to handle fair amount of power due to being 2ohm, plus the solid design... Very nice option...


----------



## Mic10is

SQ_TSX said:


> Those SI TM65's look to be a good option for pairing with HLCD's.... ability to handle fair amount of power due to being 2ohm, plus the solid design... Very nice option...


VERY low sensitivity. Having heard them I dont think they would mate well with horns. Those are really great midbass, but midrange wasnt as transparent or detailed as I would prefer. 
I am hoping the new version are better


----------



## Guest

Mic10is said:


> VERY low sensitivity. Having heard them I dont think they would mate well with horns. Those are really great midbass, but midrange wasnt as transparent or detailed as I would prefer.
> I am hoping the new version are better


Thanks Mic !

Which midbasses would you suggest ?


----------



## thehatedguy

18Sound 6
JBL 660GTi
AE TD6H

and Eric's new 6 when it comes.

All are great choices.


----------



## truckerfte

Eric Stevens said:


> A discussion is an excange of ideas and facts or data, its even okay if they are opossing and dont agree. Your statements however are opinion stated as fact which is not a welcome part of any proper discusson.
> 
> Your opinion is baseless, you do not state or reference any facts, or factual data, draw no reasonable conclusions based upon said facts or data. Therefore the comments made previously by others arent really insults, they are facts based upon your actions.


This post shows why Mr Stevens is a business owner and why I'm just a truck driver. 

I might have used a three word phrase that starts with Go...


----------



## ugnlol

Since we are on the topic of horns, does anyone have a link to a build thread of a car that uses horns? Someone that has done it right, not just thrown it in there just to have horns.


----------



## truckerfte

ugnlol said:


> Since we are on the topic of horns, does anyone have a link to a build thread of a car that uses horns? Someone that has done it right, not just thrown it in there just to have horns.


Don't have a link, look up s10 pro audio blow through .


----------



## wheelieking71

SQ_TSX said:


> Those SI TM65's look to be a good option for pairing with HLCD's.... ability to handle fair amount of power due to being 2ohm, plus the solid design... Very nice option...


I am curious, what does being a 2ohm driver have to do with power handling?


----------



## thehatedguy

I am slowly building a new install with Eric's minihorns and JBL 8s...using every trick that I have learned over the years.

Going to be a while before it is finished, but there might be some pictures posted a long the way...if I can remember to take pictures.



ugnlol said:


> Since we are on the topic of horns, does anyone have a link to a build thread of a car that uses horns? Someone that has done it right, not just thrown it in there just to have horns.


----------



## Guest

wheelieking71 said:


> I am curious, what does being a 2ohm driver have to do with power handling?


Nothing.... just presents a lower load to the amplifier to typically generate more power....

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## LumbermanSVO

ugnlol said:


> Since we are on the topic of horns, does anyone have a link to a build thread of a car that uses horns? Someone that has done it right, not just thrown it in there just to have horns.


I'm building a new dash for ES full size horns, but it's gonna be a VERY slow build. My build log here is titles, "An Old Bronco"


----------



## Mic10is

ugnlol said:


> Since we are on the topic of horns, does anyone have a link to a build thread of a car that uses horns? Someone that has done it right, not just thrown it in there just to have horns.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/96245-install-pics-horns.html


----------



## onebadmonte

ugnlol said:


> Since we are on the topic of horns, does anyone have a link to a build thread of a car that uses horns? Someone that has done it right, not just thrown it in there just to have horns.


shameless plug. 

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/hlcd/148195-hldcs-installed-me-p-mucho-pics.html


----------



## ugnlol

It is imo in the same 'league' as having tweeters in the kick panel - I feel it is a very strange place to put a tweeter.
Placing a horn 10-20cm(?) from your knees and stomach feels just weird. I want my tweeters up in ear height.

But again, here where I live nobody mounts tweeters so low or have horns in the car as I have seen, so I COULD be wrong


----------



## Matthew Borgardt

ugnlol said:


> Since we are on the topic of horns, does anyone have a link to a build thread of a car that uses horns? Someone that has done it right, not just thrown it in there just to have horns.


Ummmm mm you can ask me... 

Oh did I forget to mention, I have installed more horns in cars than anyone...


truckerfte said:


> This post shows why Mr Stevens is a business owner and why I'm just a truck driver.
> 
> I might have used a three word phrase that starts with Go...



Matt Borgardt
Oncore/Cadence/Logic


----------



## DBlevel

Matthew Borgardt said:


> Ummmm mm you can ask me...
> 
> Oh did I forget to mention, I have installed more horns in cars than anyone...
> 
> 
> 
> Matt Borgardt
> Oncore/Cadence/Logic



^^^this guy has been very helpful with me learning about HLCD's! Installing and tuning!


----------



## thehatedguy

Newbie.

Seriously though...the last statement is the truth.



Matthew Borgardt said:


> Ummmm mm you can ask me...
> 
> Oh did I forget to mention, I have installed more horns in cars than anyone...
> 
> 
> 
> Matt Borgardt
> Oncore/Cadence/Logic


----------



## Matthew Borgardt

Damn it! We are talking about cars...






































Matt Borgardt
Oncore/Cadence/Logic


----------



## Matthew Borgardt

Matt Borgardt
Oncore/Cadence/Logic


----------



## Elgrosso

thehatedguy said:


> I am slowly building a new install with Eric's minihorns and JBL 8s...using every trick that I have learned over the years.
> 
> Going to be a while before it is finished, but there might be some pictures posted a long the way...if I can remember to take pictures.


Great! Did you already start the thread, where is it? can't find it


----------



## Lou Frasier2

truckerfte said:


> This post shows why Mr Stevens is a business owner and why I'm just a truck driver.
> 
> I might have used a three word phrase that starts with Go...


yeah me too but i might have used a couple of expletives to start my sentence,his horns are awesome,i love how they sound in my tacoma


----------



## corcraft

Matthew Borgardt said:


> Ummmm mm you can ask me...
> 
> Oh did I forget to mention, I have installed more horns in cars than anyone...
> 
> 
> 
> Matt Borgardt
> Oncore/Cadence/Logic


Did I just see a ghost? Or am I drinking too much????? Matt, great to see you here!


----------



## Matthew Borgardt

corcraft said:


> Did I just see a ghost? Or am I drinking too much????? Matt, great to see you here!


I decided to rear my head once more.
Cannot stand on the sidelines anymore.



Matt Borgardt
Oncore/Cadence/Logic


----------



## oabeieo

Matthew Borgardt said:


> I decided to rear my head once more.
> Cannot stand on the sidelines anymore


 do you still have those carbon fiber horns you made a long time ago from the utube vids ? 
If so how much ... if you have any of that kind of stuffs Layn around I would be very interested in playing with any of your old toys. 

Anything unusual? Maybe some streight entry minis? 
Or some minis with a shallower angle to them? 
Perhaps some very big 1.4exits? 

I remember seeing some pretty cool stuff can't remember much Very very interested tho if you would ever want to let go of any of it . 

I was the pain in the ass kid that called ID twice a week and asked how to tune back in 96'
You helped me -btw thanks for that. You were very nice.


----------



## DBlevel

thehatedguy said:


> Newbie.
> 
> Seriously though...the last statement is the truth.


Newbie who?


----------



## thehatedguy

oabeieo said:


> Anything unusual? Maybe some streight entry minis?
> Or some minis with a shallower angle to them?


I have been working on this for my car...straight entry with exit angle of full sized since mine are so far back under the dash. I will come back to it once everything else is finished.


----------



## thehatedguy

Me messing with Matt. 

Someone might mistake a low post count for newb status since people clearly don't know or didn't know who Eric is. 



DBlevel said:


> Newbie who?


----------



## mitchyz250f

thehatedguy - How does the dynamics of the Audax PR170m0 and PHL1120 compare to horns from lets say 1000Hz to 4000Hz? Are they close or is there no comparison?


----------



## Matthew Borgardt

mitchyz250f said:


> thehatedguy - How does the dynamics of the Audax PR170m0 and PHL1120 compare to horns from lets say 1000Hz to 4000Hz? Are they close or is there no comparison?


Where are we going with this question. The reason I ask is a horn and direct radiating drivers are two different systems...



Matt Borgardt
Oncore/Cadence/Logic


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## mitchyz250f

I've never had the opportunity to listen to a horn system. Among other things they are known for their dynamics. The thing I enjoy the most about my current system (PHL1120, JBL2204) are the dynamics. I just wanted to understand how much in dynamics I'm I missing out by going with cone drivers?

Also my next car is going to be a CRX and I've heard that they work well with horns.


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## Lou Frasier2

truckerfte said:


> If I recall my conversation with Mr Stevens, 800 up on the full bodies, 1200 up on minis.


i only wish my pxa h800 would let me cross the horns to 800


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## fullergoku

It will if you just change the speaker from tweeter to fullrange then you should be able to pick your crossover point.


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## funkalicious

To the OP: Welcome to the dark side. It's a blast ain't it ?


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## corcraft

Yes it is!.... or was lol. It's not a dd so I haven't played with it in a while. I ordered a processor too so kinda waiting to put that in. I was just using 800prs and had some crazy spikes I wanted to tame. I love them though! I will try and post pics soon.

Anyone know of a decent neo 8" that is good with horns? Thinking about swapping the x57's out for another project. I don't want to break the bank, just a toy that I like to play with, not a dd or comp car. I just prefer neo for the weight. I've read good things about dyns with horns but they are low sensitivity?... the mw180 is 89db I think but can get the similar Volvo dyns for nice price if I can make fit. I was concerned about the sensitivity?.... well and the fit, lol. If I don't try those or a decent priced neo I'll probably try the ole 8" flutes.


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## Lou Frasier2

fullergoku said:


> It will if you just change the speaker from tweeter to fullrange then you should be able to pick your crossover point.


haha,thats a thought that went to the left of my thought process,thank you


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## fullergoku

Lou Frasier2 said:


> haha,thats a thought that went to the left of my thought process,thank you


You're welcome glad I could help even a small amount.


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## Lou Frasier2

fullergoku said:


> You're welcome glad I could help even a small amount.


to me it is a big amount,


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## corcraft

Went ahead and purchased the dyns from a member so I will try my hand and them. The reason I wanted something light is because my car has flimsy glass doors. I do have mdf plates, dampener and a ton of clay around the plates so they are decent but not bulletproof. I don't want to add glass to the doors because of personal reasons; I want to be able to take everything out if need be without any new holes or mods that didn't come in the car.

Now, with further research there is little to find out about these volvo dyns. Supposedly they were mw180 but they have their differences. The vc looks smaller in pics I have seen and the frame itself is smaller as well which is good for me and why I went ahead and went for them. I found these parameters below which are few and I have no way of confirming if they are legit but if so higher efficiency which was my other concern and also why I went ahead and went for them. Hopefully we'll see if they will fit soon. Supposedly dyn has said that these were based on the mw180 though but I have not confirmed that either. I know they look like the home in wall but with different impedance. 

CONE TYPE: Poly
SIZE: 8in
SPL(2.83v): 91db
WATTS: 120
Z: 4ohms
FS: 30hz
RANGE: 30-4Khz
VAS: 60ltr
Qts: .30
Xmax: +/-7.0mm


----------



## MARLEYMARL

I made the decision to go HLCD a few years back. Best decision ever made! The sound was amazing plus the wow factor when others saw them. Gearing up now to once again use them. Eric Stevens is/was extremely helpful...answered all my questions in a fairly quick manner as well.


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## corcraft

And the dyn 9's fit and still no cutting or drilling 







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Before with the x57. The tweeter isn't hooked up. I had the xs57's before deciding to horn and just never removed door panels to take out.







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## corcraft

Horns








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overlook the door trim and dirt. Been working on the doors.


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## corcraft

Some other pics...







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Last pic is under false floor and plexi. You can see the zapco 200.2 horn amp arc 900.6 on rest of system. Simple install, I didn't use any glass this time. But was a little challenging not cutting or drilling. Wanted to be able to pull out and not have any extra holes. It has been a rewarding year for me trying new things. 1st Ib= win! 1st hlcd= win! Big mids in door= win!!! Even though still Untuned, I xovered at 50hz to get some excursion to make sure they didn't hit the door panel and just like the horns... 1st impression = huge success!


----------



## oabeieo

Nice system . Love that ib setup.


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## corcraft

ty!!


----------



## One_Slye_Fox

Can you message me more info about your horns? I've been shopping for a front stage but have always wanted, never owned horns. 

Thanks


----------



## Patrick Bateman

mitchyz250f said:


> I've never had the opportunity to listen to a horn system. Among other things they are known for their dynamics. The thing I enjoy the most about my current system (PHL1120, JBL2204) are the dynamics. I just wanted to understand how much in dynamics I'm I missing out by going with cone drivers?
> 
> Also my next car is going to be a CRX and I've heard that they work well with horns.


Gary's car sounds very "horn like" and the Beolab 90s sound very "horn like."

Those big explosive dynamics that have you jumping out of your seat.

My hunch is that the dynamics of horns aren't due to efficiency, they're due to directivity and low power compression.

If you have a measurement system, here's one way to test this hypothesis:

When you measure a speaker with a lot of directivity, you'll notice that early reflections don't 'pollute' the impulse response as much. This makes sense; if you have a speaker that's radiating in 360 degrees, it's going to reflect off of the surroundings far more than if you have a speaker that's only radiating into 90 degrees. In fact, *a speaker that radiates into 90 degrees will have about 75% less early reflection.* (Because 90 is 25% of 360.)

I think the key here is that it doesn't really matter how you control the directivity. It could be a horn, it could be a waveguide, it could be a dipole or a cardioid.

The second piece of the puzzle is power compression. Again, it doesn't matter how you lower power compression; it could be a loudspeaker with a very large voice coil, like the Dynaudios. Or it could be a speaker with a smaller voice coil but very high efficiency, like the Faitals. Or it could even be an array of speakers that wouldn't amount to much on their own, but once arrayed they have very low power compression.

Old school horns will get the job done.
New school arrays, like the Beolab 90s will get the job done.

Y'all know my preferred solution, Synergy Horns.


----------



## corcraft

To horn or not to horn???? Well I can now say that the midrange that you choose has everything to do with your outcome. I can now see why some argue that horns aren't great. Don't get me wrong I still think horns are great but it is now 3am and I've been tring to tune the horns and dyns together for hours and so far epic fail. The realism that I bragged about is now gone, the snare and snap is gone out the window.What I'm trying to say is your mid choice has everything to do with horns! If I would have tried the dyns first then my opinion would have been very different so for for the ones that may have heard horns once and didn't like... I get it now. But, mated with the right mid they're incredible. Im going to play with it a couple days maybe i have something way out of wack but I Don't think so. As of now Im seeing the x57s going back in or I'll try some flutes... It looks like high efficiency mids is where its at just like the man says. But to my defense I did do some research first and some dyns have mated well with horns so I tried... just not the volvo version of mw180. The midbass is incredible but midrange is lacking to say the least. Y do I like this hobby? So much time out the window. Ole lady is gonna kill me when I pull these back out in a few days.

1st impression = huge success .... I made the wrong 1st impression lol.


----------



## Eric Stevens

I am available if you need assitance with tuning. To get things to play the best or nicely together you want drivers with similar character. 

The difference when tuned correctly is incremental but noticeable.


----------



## corcraft

^ yeah since you asked I need some of your prototype 8's! Lol. I'll be the 1st to admit I'm not a seasoned tuner and have a lot to learn but I can usually get somewhat liking to my ears. These arent horrible but I think they need a midrange paired with them. Male vocal sounds like singing through a filter but the upper end of the vocal becomes a little harsh I can tame it down but becomes more lifeless. Snare has lost its life which to me is 1 of the hardest instruments to bring to life but was awesome with the x57. I was xover at 1200 with x57 and now 800 24db but I still think too high for dyn. I'm flat at xover frequently with no boost but when I separate and view separately the mid has nothing at 800, horn carrying that frequency.

However, Steve Perry's high pitched vocals "faithfully" still sound great.... That is a bad reference track imho, sounds good on everything if the low end is half tuned.


----------



## Elgrosso

corcraft said:


> ^ yeah since you asked I need some of your prototype 8's! Lol...


Yeah I could use some light neo 8's too!


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Eric Stevens said:


> I am available if you need assitance with tuning. To get things to play the best or nicely together you want drivers with similar character.
> 
> The difference when tuned correctly is incremental but noticeable.


If you have a demo car that you bring to shows or the like, i'd love to hear it some time. I've only heard your horns once, in Mike's Toyota Tacoma.


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## corcraft

A follow up to my last post.... a rookie mistake on my end. I failed to mentioned that I changed dsp at the same time that I changed mids. I never thought it would have been in the dsp but with some help from Eric the problem is in the processor frequency reproduction and not the mids.... Well not completely anyway, verdict is out until I change processors but I think the mids will be ok. I knew the frequencies that I was complaining about were in the top end around 2kHz range but I assumed it was the low sensitivity mids that I didn't have any parameters on blending with the horns. Mic, I should have listened to you, I was just trying to save some $ and "looked" a lot easier to install ("looked" that way but that's a whole nother story). 2 lessons to be learned here.

1) For those with negative 1st impressions on horns, look around and find out why first. I knew I loved them because I had them in before I made changes to other areas but if I hadn't have I would have ignorantly had a different opinion that had nothing to do with the horns themselves but sounded like it.

2) When an educated person that knows more than you in a field gives you an opinion, not only listen but do what they say regardless if it costs you a little more $ or is harder.... because it will probably cost you both in the long run (more time and money ahead at my expense).


----------



## corcraft

[URL=http://s1234.photobucket.com/user/purcellc/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20161015_145725.jpg.html][/URL]

Slow learner.... actually only dsp that I had left, sold pxa about a week too soon. Had to rerun wires anyway for a different location so figured.... don't knock it until you've tried it, lol. Let's check my psychic abilities. .... Maybe I'll say image to the right, lacking midbass and lost dynamics?  ordering ps8 probably it's just for until then.


----------



## corcraft

Maybe I need to start a build log... I keep trying new things and I update here... anyways. Dyn mids were a fail as well. I had 2 issues, mids not blending and processor reproducing a spike in the top end (again if I hadn't loved the horns b4 I would have pulled them out by now but no fault of their own). Anyways x57s back in and I have music again. I do miss that midbass "Alot" but atleast it sounds like music again. Still a long ways to go but back on the right path. Ms8 is in for time being, it is impressive for a quick tune but I still haven't achieved a frequency response that I'm happy with. Ive only been playing with for a couple of hours though.... however, as far as imaging goes I did get a pretty good image with it. At first it was like everyone said.... way to the right. 

Tip that worked for me:
The 1st set of sounds when the subwoofer doesn't chime in is for time delay; for this Hold your head as close to center as possible. After the 1st set of sounds sit in normal drivers position to adjust levels and eq. Worked for me image wide and center. Thank goodness! Because with the dyns I lost it... image was steering (null in frequency close to xover point I assume).


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## Elgrosso

Time align horns to the center with ms8? That's a good trick, I always heard it had hard time with horns, maybe because of this.


----------



## fish

I've been searching for a new car recently, & one thing I consistently notice is the very huge & obtrusive center consoles.  Are any of you guys having success with horns in these newer vehicles? 

@ corcraft...

I like your install pics! What vehicle do you have & what size subs do you have back there?


----------



## corcraft

fish said:


> I've been searching for a new car recently, & one thing I consistently notice is the very huge & obtrusive center consoles.  Are any of you guys having success with horns in these newer vehicles?
> 
> @ corcraft...
> 
> I like your install pics! What vehicle do you have & what size subs do you have back there?


As for a big center console and imaging, mine images great even with the ms8. However tonality with the ms8 in my car leaves a lot to be desired which is disappointing. I've read others that had problems with imaging but had good tonality so I thought I could trick the imaging and be golden. I did get the imaging right but no luck with the frequency curve (ms8 coming out today actually). But to answer your question, Yes good imaging with large console.... best imaging that I have ever achieved, I do have full bodies which is recommended for a console car but others have had success with minis as well.

My car isn't a newer car, it's a c5 zo6 which is why I could do the ib install, the regular c5s didn't have a trunk. They are just cheap 10s but dig low and plenty of output. Thanks for the compliment! Simple was what I was going for with leftover equipment. .... I don't think anything in it is leftover now, lol, everything has been changed, you know how that goes.


----------



## oabeieo

corcraft said:


> As for a big center console and imaging, mine images great even with the ms8. However tonality with the ms8 in my car leaves a lot to be desired which is disappointing. I've read others that had problems with imaging but had good tonality so I thought I could trick the imaging and be golden. I did get the imaging right but no luck with the frequency curve (ms8 coming out today actually). But to answer your question, Yes good imaging with large console.... best imaging that I have ever achieved, I do have full bodies which is recommended for a console car but others have had success with minis as well.
> 
> My car isn't a newer car, it's a c5 zo6 which is why I could do the ib install, the regular c5s didn't have a trunk. They are just cheap 10s but dig low and plenty of output. Thanks for the compliment! Simple was what I was going for with leftover equipment. .... I don't think anything in it is leftover now, lol, everything has been changed, you know how that goes.



I did a set of full size in a c5 a few years back. Your right even with the ginormous console it imaging was good. 

It had a 10" Idq woofer in passenger footwell (leaving just enough room for someone's pinky toe to fit) lol and a set of csx 6.5s in doors off of a ID 5ch (the cheap one that has tons of noise) but it sounded really good off of a 880prs.

In fact it was all my old gear except the amp and 6.5s I had ordered from ID at the time. 

Wish I took pics it was such a fun build and sounded way better than I expected it to.


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## corcraft

Just eqed the 4to6 and WOW!!! Horns are still impressing me! Impact is back and so incredible! Unlike some other reviews of ms8+horns I had good imaging and excellent midbass, it was the eqing of the horns that I couldn't get to sound right. I actually just put the ms8 in while I was waiting on a new dsp to come in to see what it would do but I ended up leaving it in for quite a while because of the things it did do right. Up front bass was out of this world as well as midbass which is weird because a lot of people complain about the mb with ms8. But like others I tried tricking it to do what I wanted it to do to the horns for countless hrs. Needless to say I finally pulled out and loving my new horns


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## Mic10is

tonally I liked what the ms8 did when I was using horns. imaging wasnt necessarily an issue but there were staging issues and it was an enormous drain to try and manipulate the MS8 to get things to work the way it should.
I actually felt like for the 5months I used the MS8 I got dumber and forgot how to actually tune bc I exhausted myself trying to turn my head this way, lets try moving here, adjust the gain here, cover this mic, sit here, move 2" here....got to the point where I was straddling my center console with the armrest basically up my ass to get the stage to be perfectly symmetrical.

I never had midbass issues. it was more an issue of midbass to subbass integration and the 50-80hz region being out of proportion, almost bloated to 160hz region.
it lacked attack and real snap, but tonally it sounded really really good--it just didnt sound real or lifelike.

but like you, pulled it out and put an H700 back in and everything was where it should be and worked as planned.


----------



## banshee28

So asking a very general question here...I have heard about horns for years now, but never heard them in person. 

So lets say I have a pretty decent system tuned "say 90%" decently, a 15" IDMAX IB for Sub, 2 10" underseats for midbass, 4" JBL door speakers, and some Vifa tweets. How will horns integrate into this setup? Will I simply drop the tweets and add Horns? Will they play say 800-up, and if so will the midrange stop around there? How will they sound compared to what I have now. I know this is a very general question, so just testing the waters. One day I may want to do this or at least here a set thats setup and tuned properly.


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## dgage

There really isn't anything simple about horns in a car. Besides the size of the horns and installing them, you'll need a strong DSP system to tune them well. Also, to truly take advantage of the incredible efficiency a compression driver provides, you really need STRONG midrange, which is why you see some horns run with 10" MIDRANGES. The 10" isn't for playing deep, they are usually high-efficiency pro audio designs that are true midrange drivers. 

My home theater speakers use a BMS4594 compression driver with a pair of 12" mid ranges that don't play much below 80 Hz. I tell people most speakers get unhappy when you turn hem up too loud. With my speakers you'll be unhappy before they will be and they'll provide audiophile quality and amazing dynamics the entire time.

So yes, you could SIMPLY drop the tweeter and install a horn but I think that would be greaty limiting some of the advantages of a horn and compression driver combo.


----------



## banshee28

dgage said:


> There really isn't anything simple about horns in a car. Besides the size of the horns and installing them, you'll need a strong DSP system to tune them well. Also, to truly take advantage of the incredible efficiency a compression driver provides, you really need STRONG midrange, which is why you see some horns run with 10" MIDRANGES. The 10" isn't for playing deep, they are usually high-efficiency pro audio designs that are true midrange drivers.
> 
> My home theater speakers use a BMS4594 compression driver with a pair of 12" mid ranges that don't play much below 80 Hz. I tell people most speakers get unhappy when you turn hem up too loud. With my speakers you'll be unhappy before they will be and they'll provide audiophile quality and amazing dynamics the entire time.
> 
> So yes, you could SIMPLY drop the tweeter and install a horn but I think that would be greaty limiting some of the advantages of a horn and compression driver combo.


Thanks, this helps! So.... If I am using my 4" mids in the door as midrange, will those be strong enough for horns? Also I do have a C-DSP (mini DSP) and getting very familiar with REW!! So tuning is getting a little easier each time I try something new. I will want to hear a setup with them eventually so maybe one day I can do that.


----------



## dgage

banshee28 said:


> Thanks, this helps! So.... If I am using my 4" mids in the door as midrange, will those be strong enough for horns? Also I do have a C-DSP (mini DSP) and getting very familiar with REW!! So tuning is getting a little easier each time I try something new. I will want to hear a setup with them eventually so maybe one day I can do that.


The short answer is your 4" speakers won't come close to doing justice to what the horns can do. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do horns, it just means the 4s will be the limiting factor of your system. The simplest thing to do is unplug your tweeters and turn up your system to how loud you'd like to play it and see if the 4" speakers sound strained. If they are strained then you'll likely want to come up with a plan to address the 4s. If the 4s are fine then the horns should blend in nicely though you'll need to turn the power way down on them. You'll only be using a fraction of the horns capability, not necessarily a bad thing, means they will have tons of headroom.

The C-DSP should work fine for you and give you plenty of power to tweak and learn and tweak and learn.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

banshee28 said:


> So asking a very general question here...I have heard about horns for years now, but never heard them in person.
> 
> So lets say I have a pretty decent system tuned "say 90%" decently, a 15" IDMAX IB for Sub, 2 10" underseats for midbass, 4" JBL door speakers, and some Vifa tweets. How will horns integrate into this setup? Will I simply drop the tweets and add Horns? Will they play say 800-up, and if so will the midrange stop around there? How will they sound compared to what I have now. I know this is a very general question, so just testing the waters. One day I may want to do this or at least here a set thats setup and tuned properly.


I've been tinkering with horns for far too long, but I think you can get good results with a fairly 'vanilla' setup:

1) A good quality compression driver on a good horn. For the price, Celestion is hard to beat.
2) The transition from the highs to the midrange is critical. I know that 99% of the people out there tell you to use a prosound midrange for the efficiency. IMHO, it's not the efficiency that makes a difference, it's Pattern Flip. I won't bore you with the technical details of "pattern flip", but in a nutshell, *you want your horns and your midrange to be approximately the same size.* If you go out and look at winning systems, they all follow this rule. Mark Eldridge, Mic Wallace, Harry Kimura... They all follow this.
3) Subs are easy. A million choices there.

Put all of this together, and you can achieve a very competent and impressive setup for not a lot of money.


In your setup, things get tricky because your midrange is very small compared to an 'average' horn. The obvious solution would be to replace the midrange.

But there's another solution that you might consider:

Instead of swapping out the midranges, you could also fix the 'pattern flip' issue by using a smaller horn or waveguide.

Check out what Gary Biggs did in his Regal, where he was using a 5" midrange along with a dome tweeter on a oblate spheroidal waveguide.

Both solutions have their pros and cons, this is simply a solution that might not be so obvious.


----------



## dgage

I just want to point out the key word that I keyed in on when I first read your post Bashee, which is "SIMPLY". As Patrick's post just showed, there isn't much simple about it, even in "vanilla" form. However, the opportunity to learn is there and could very much be worth it over an even more vanilla tweet/mid combo. That is up to you to decide. If you want to learn and potentially get better audio quality, then horns can definitely be worth it. But it won't necessarily be simple or easy.


----------



## banshee28

Thanks for all the replies! Yep very interesting and lots to learn here. I will keep tuning what I have setup now, but horns seem likely my next upgrade if/when I decide on going to the "next level" 

Very cool....


----------



## fredswain

I thought I'd chime in on this topic since I have a good deal of horn experience. I worked with Matt at Audio Designs in Houston in the 90's, where Eric's Sable was built. Hi Eric! Long time no see. Matt, I talk to you often enough. 

We did lots of horn systems. We competed with lots of them and won with lots of them. Even then there were people that had an automatic bias against horns having never heard them. We had found that at some shows, there would be certain judges that would see the horns and instantly convince themselves that they were going to sound bad, and they'd judge them around this bias. It didn't happen often but it happened. You'd have people that would say that they'd never heard a good horn system, to which I'd agree. There were an awful lot of bad ones out there. Far more than good but that wasn't necessarily the fault of the horn, but sometimes it was. The early fiberglass USD's were atrocious. The Crystal Audio were a joke as well. The Veritas rang like a bell. Even the early fiberglass ID horns needed dampening to reduce body resonance. The later molded pieces fixed this. Early on it was more about dispersion and less about sound quality. Thankfully, Eric wanted both.

Lots of times people would want to try horns but they had a low budget. They'd go buy the low end horns that used the Motorola Piezo driver. Then they'd passively cross over a mid that was randomly placed somewhere like a door that had no dampening, gave them no eq or level matching, and would then hear a system that cost as much as a good component system that sounded like crap. This was all too common. Other people would hear these and some would actually try to compete with them. It didn't take long before many that heard these systems as their first or only experience with horns in cars came to the conclusion that they all sounded this bad. Matt actually found a way to smooth that Motorola's out quite a bit by drilling a 5/8" hole all the way through the phase plug. 

The competition systems that we did never used those piezo's. The best sounding cars all had a few things in common. The first was that they were simple. 2 horns, 2 mid bass, sub. That's it. No extra tweeters mounted anywhere. No rear fill. No duplicate sets of mid bass. Just 4 speakers to cover everything above the subs. They were typically 6-1/2's but preferably 8's and usually in the floor/kick area. There were a couple of exceptions. Those cars had active crossovers and separate amplification for each channel. They'd also have 31 bands of eq right and left. If the mid bass were done well, you'd be surprised just how smooth the eq settings actually were. They weren't necessarily all over the place but there was lots of work under the dash to smooth things out. Matt was dampening the underside of the dash and even pushing the mini horns all the way to the firewall, totally uncoupled from the dash. I think in a Jetta he even went full AP on some small mid bass in the doors. 

There were, and probably still are, some people that say something along the lines of if you need 31 bands of eq that you don't have a good system. They'd say that conventional speakers will sound better without eq. You know, I'm actually not going to debate that. That second part is true but to be fair, all of our competition cars, horns or otherwise, had 31 band eq's. The horn setup when done well will image better than any cone speaker setup right off the bat though. The horns will have a greater dynamic range than the cones. You do need good eq but then again the inside of a car isn't exactly a resonance free anechoic chamber. The rewards are fantastic. You just want to sit in the car in the garage all night and get lost in the music. You suddenly love sitting in traffic as it gives you more time to listen.

The thing about a horn system though is that you won't get a good sound by skimping out cheaply. You probably won't get a nice result finding old Crystal or Veritas horns either. Eric and Matt will chastise me for saying this but I do like the USD Waveguides but they are different from the ID's, which I also like. Forget the rest. A nice horn setup is going to cost some money and you'll be spending some time getting the install right and the tune down. But once you do, 20 years from now you'll still be convinced, like I am, that this is the only setup you need.


----------



## sinister-kustoms

Awesome read Fred. I'm hopefully less than a week away from getting my new/old (all old school ID drivers) system up and running. I know I've got a lot of seat time ahead of me getting the tune down, but your post has me excited!


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## truckerfte

Im in the same boat. As soon as I get the ex's car out of the garage, hopefully Friday, I've got ES horns going in.


----------



## fredswain

Matt reminded me of a set of judges that we had seen many times that were inherently biased against horns. You silly kids and your easy 1 seat judging system! These judges were a married couple. They themselves were competitors. They didn't use horns. The shop that did the work didn't use horns or believe in them. That shop also went head to head with us with a couple of big cars. The deck was stacked against us already. 

They had sat in one particular car of ours that Matt did that was a Nissan Altima. It had a pair of large body Image (ES Audio) CD-2 comp horns, an ID-8 in each kick, and subs in the trunk. Active crossovers and 31 band eq's. Basically the de facto comp car setup for us. These judges sat in it many times at various shows. They always commented that the horns sounded honky or that the stage was low or that the high end was lacking. They kept suggesting adding tweeters up high. Btw, that's what they had in their car and what the other cars out of their shop had. They weren't only bias against horns, they were bias for dash/a pillar tweeters, and they were judges.

One day Matt decided to play with their biases. We saw them at a show and asked them if they'd like to hear the new setup with the dash tweeters added in with the new tune Of course, they did. They got out of that car and gushed with praise on how much better the sound was. The stage was high and stable. The new highs were crisp and clean. It was night and day. They wanted to know where Matt hid the tweeters. Our cars used dash mats during judging so you couldn't see them. 

Matt made the big reveal. There were no new tweeters. Nothing about the setup had changed. Even the tuning hadn't been touched since they heard it the month prior. All he had done was to adjust their expectations and bias. I don't remember what their reaction was but I don't recall it being one of humility. I think it was a big of anger. Those were good times.


----------



## Elgrosso

Nice stories thx!
Maybe I should try to push mine further.
But the mouths fit very well with the under dash curve right now, almost a continuity.
I wonder... well it's easy to test!


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## fredswain

Try it. You may like it. You may hate it. You are essentially sitting inside of an enclosure that has varying amounts of reflections around you. What works on paper in a free field or a home environment may have absolutely zero relevance to your car. Just because logic doesn't indicate that something shouldn't work doesn't mean that you shouldn't still try it. 

I'm long winded with my stories but it's fun to relive those times. I'll have to find some pictures but I had a custom made set of Image mini horns made out of fiberglass. I think Eric only made 2 or 3 sets in fiberglass. I rebuilt the top of the dash in my '88 RX-7 and incorporated them into it, firing at the windshield. I tried it because I saw Matt Hashimoto's, Speakerworks Camaro pictures with his up there. Incidentally, it was Bob Troxler's '87 RX-7 with Waveguides under the dash that was the first time I'd ever heard of an under dash horn in the car. The "logic" of the high location in Matt Hashimoto's car made sense to me. In practice, they didn't work well. I was a custom installer so I really wanted to show off but the end result was a nice high and wide stage but no definition. The imaging was not precise. If you rely on reflections rather than direct radiation, you just won't get precise imaging. Remember that if you are playing with the top of the dash with any speaker type. 

I ended up building a car that used conventional kick panels using tweets and 6-1/2's both down there. That car went head to head against Matt Hashimoto one year at the IASCA finals. We finished 3rd (I was pissed as the winner was a guy we beat all season). Matt got 5th. I listened to his car as well as another car that had horns in the top of the dash. I forget the guy's name but it was an old green El Torino with Veritas horns in the top of the dash. Those guys were both awesome people btw. Both of those cars had the same problems that my RX-7 did. Put the horns back under the dash and suddenly it worked again. Matt built a custom CRX dash that had mini horns built into the top but firing at you instead of at the windshield. It worked better than firing up but still had some issues that tuning couldn't fix. Mark Eldridge's horn iterations in the 4Runner used custom designed horns firing up or forward that took the windshield and dash shape into account as a part of the horn itself. Those were the best imaging top mount horns I'd ever heard but they were custom pieces. Today he describes them as merely "ok" and admits he'd never do them again.

One day Matt got this goofy idea to take the horns and shove them way back under the dash. It sounded like a ridiculous idea. It seemed more absurd than putting horns up top. You can't even see them. He wanted the path lengths as close to equal as possible. That was Speakerworks' original goal of the Waveguides. It was about path length equalization. Matt spent lots of time dampening the underside of the dash from reflections. All of our competition cars used as much reflection absorption as possible. If they'd have allowed us to remove the windows and replace them with acoustic foam, we would have. The end result of Matt shoving those first horns back was an idea that he still likes today. It just worked. Keep in mind that if you try it, make under dash trays that are heavily damped and carpeted. Merely moving those horns back and re-tuning may not be enough to get the result you want.

Another little tip is that the midbass needs to match up well. You can't just use any speaker here with the logic that the limited frequency is going to mate up with the horn that does most of the work. I liked the Image IDQ-6's and 8's. I tried Focal 6's, and 7's with horns. While they sounded great as a component set with tweeters, they didn't work well with the horns. It wasn't an efficiency thing. There just wasn't a good sonic matchup, even though and RTA said otherwise. Trust your ears. Measurements and graphs should always take a backseat to your ears.


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## Patrick Bateman

Agreed.

One of my 'rules of thumb' with high frequency waveguides is that I want to be able to see the throat. As in, "if I can't see the throat, there's going to be issues with the high frequencies."

I've tinkered with designs that violated that rule, like Paralines and horns that are long and deep. But they just didn't work.


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## Mic10is

after several years of competing where the horns were clearly visible, my rule of thumb was to make sure the horn was never visible.

Those scored the best and also happened to sound the best

install in my BMWs, the horns were never visible.


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## onebadmonte

Dang, my horns are visible but you cant see the throat. :/


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## fredswain

Patrick Bateman said:


> Agreed.
> 
> One of my 'rules of thumb' with high frequency waveguides is that I want to be able to see the throat. As in, "if I can't see the throat, there's going to be issues with the high frequencies."
> 
> I've tinkered with designs that violated that rule, like Paralines and horns that are long and deep. But they just didn't work.


I don't necessarily agree with that. I don't want to be able to see down the mouth to the throat of a horn when in a car. I want to be off axis a little. I will add a caveat to that and say that this may or may not be affected by the expansion profile of the horn. In Mark Eldridge's first horn iteration, the horn was pointing up at the windshield but then the windshield and dash effectively coupled to the horn. You still weren't on axis. In his second iteration, you were but those horns were playing 400-4000 (it may have been a little lower to a little higher but the point is they were midrange) and were a hybrid expansion. The throat area was initially an exponential that fed into a conical expansion and it was very smooth. I haven't liked being directly on axis with an ID horn, full body or mini, or a USD Waveguide. I never pointed them upward toward the listener. It was always best to be above their aim a bit. I'm not saying that being on axis is always bad as it works in the home with a good horn but the acoustics of a house are very different to a car and are hardly relevant for comparison sake. You also don't typically it 3 feet away from a home speaker and a computer speaker that you so sit close to is again hardly relevant to what happens in a car. Ive recently played around with some horns in my wife's car and I think they'll work very well in it. It's a Mazda CX-5.


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## bertholomey

thehatedguy said:


> Bought my first set of horns from Eric in 95 or 96. Used other horns too. Used cones and domes...some really nice cones and domes, but never can escape the horns. The struggle was always real. Currently putting another set in as we speak.




Hey Jason - bring them horns up North in early April so we can experience them! 

I have enjoyed every car I have heard with horns! That isn't really adding to the discussion here......saw my first Veritas horn bodies in the early 90's.....finally got to hear them in Andy's VW (hurt a tooth when he cranked Green Day), loved them in Mic's car, and in John's Audi.....waiting on Russ to get his dialed in so I can hear another good set


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## Patrick Bateman

fredswain said:


> I don't necessarily agree with that. I don't want to be able to see down the mouth to the throat of a horn when in a car. I want to be off axis a little.


My comment is mostly in regards to the height of the driver versus the height of the horns.

For instance, my last five cars are as follows:

5) Honda Accord
4) Honda Accord
3) Mazda 6
2) Hyundai Genesis
1) Mazda CX5

With the first three cars, underdash horns worked pretty good, because the height difference between your ears and the horns wasn't too bad.

With my CX5, it's a real p.i.t.a., because the seats are so damn high. The seats are mostly upright, and even worse, the top of the seat is almost a foot above the floor. No joke, there's about a cubic foot of wasted space under the seats.


What you want is what BMW does, where the driver is practically sitting on the floor.

Then you can REALLY push those horns back, WAY BACK, because the driver sits so low.

Another great car would be one of those Subaru BRZs


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## bertholomey

Patrick Bateman said:


> Another great car would be one of those Subaru BRZs


Yikes! You are giving me thoughts!!!


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## fredswain

You sit low in my FC RX-7. The horns are way out there. There's a large center console but it actually doesn't hurt the imaging. Horns work beautifully in it. When we did vehicles where you sat higher up or that were wider, sometimes you had to do some things differently. In the RX-7 you install horns conventionally, tune them, and go. It's easy. They don't even have to be have big cross firing angles. The large body ID horns or the Waveguides work well in that car. My personal favorite in that car was actually the waveguides but I could never say that working for one of the biggest ID competition shops! The mini horns imaged the best but had the most narrow stage in that car. When you get to a wide vehicle, you want horns that have more of a crossfire to them, like the mini horns. We had 2 vehicles that had the full size versions of that design. One was Earl Will's Impala and the other was Dave Robert's Dodge Ram truck. Matt disputes those horns being in that truck but I think he's just getting old and senile! The large body ID horns or the Waveguides wouldn't work that well in those applications. It was all about controlled dispersion, hence the CD in the name of the ID horns. 

My wife has a CX-5. I've been playing with it a bit. The waveguides are not a good choice in it, although seating height isn't really the problem. A mini horn would probably work well but I personally prefer a horn crossed over lower than a mini. That's just me. I'd love to find a set of those old wide body ID's. Before the minis came out we referred to the horns as the standards and the widebodies although the mouth was physically the same size. The angle of the throat was different, more like the mini horns. Matt now calls the full size horns the widebodies and gets confused about the name of the others. I'm going back to that senility theory! I'd bet the wide bodies would work just fine in the CX-5 assuming they'd fit under the dash. You just need to find out which ones work best for each application. We actually did have a couple of cars that stayed with conventional mids and tweets instead of horns, even though horns were our typically our first choice.


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## oabeieo

fredswain said:


> You sit low in my FC RX-7. The horns are way out there. There's a large center console but it actually doesn't hurt the imaging. Horns work beautifully in it. When we did vehicles where you sat higher up or that were wider, sometimes you had to do some things differently. In the RX-7 you install horns conventionally, tune them, and go. It's easy. They don't even have to be have big cross firing angles. The large body ID horns or the Waveguides work well in that car. My personal favorite in that car was actually the waveguides but I could never say that working for one of the biggest ID competition shops! The mini horns imaged the best but had the most narrow stage in that car. When you get to a wide vehicle, you want horns that have more of a crossfire to them, like the mini horns. We had 2 vehicles that had the full size versions of that design. One was Earl Will's Impala and the other was Dave Robert's Dodge Ram truck. Matt disputes those horns being in that truck but I think he's just getting old and senile! The large body ID horns or the Waveguides wouldn't work that well in those applications. It was all about controlled dispersion, hence the CD in the name of the ID horns.
> 
> My wife has a CX-5. I've been playing with it a bit. The waveguides are not a good choice in it, although seating height isn't really the problem. A mini horn would probably work well but I personally prefer a horn crossed over lower than a mini. That's just me. I'd love to find a set of those old wide body ID's. Before the minis came out we referred to the horns as the standards and the widebodies although the mouth was physically the same size. The angle of the throat was different, more like the mini horns. Matt now calls the full size horns the widebodies and gets confused about the name of the others. I'm going back to that senility theory! I'd bet the wide bodies would work just fine in the CX-5 assuming they'd fit under the dash. You just need to find out which ones work best for each application. We actually did have a couple of cars that stayed with conventional mids and tweets instead of horns, even though horns were our typically our first choice.


I had a santafe that couldn't get horns to image above the dash and could always tell they were down low. And I had 7 cars before that that horns worked excellent (a vw , 5 hondas , Ford Focus) the santafe I did everything from minis to full size to every eq crossover combo possible and reverse polarity on everything in between and it never sounded good. Had to cross it at 2k just so I could get the doors to have somewhat of a good stage and it was low (inside the dash low) and couldn't get it above the dash line , so one day I was looking at PBs pics of his home made dash horns and tried it and it was truly a combfiltering abomination but gosh dam the height trade off was worth it in every way and I [email protected]&ked with it and screwed with it and made it sound pretty decent and learned a whole lot about a combfilter along the way. 

I got rid of the car and got another Honda and underdash works fine. Nice wide pinpoint stage on both sides of car. But I keep switching back to on dash horns because I prefer the sound. It's riddled with destructive interferences and won't get past 100db without the image going to scatter town, but right at 100db man , I love it! Yes I have gobs and gobs of FIR filtering and room correction (enough taps to do 4 systems worth) and it wasn't a choice, it was the only way to get it to this point...

So I really do believe, There are two types of horn users and listeners, 
One that takes the height compromise for a correct stage that has depth and has substantially less reflection problems and has a stage that on the bleeding edge if the top of dash board and there's those who don't want the height compromise or don't prefer it because of vehicle layout or what not. 

It's like underdash horns work amazing if you can get a HUgE psycho acoustic stage , and very little except maybe the 3-5k range sounds to come from under the dash , that's probably why they sound so much better pushed so far back when possible. 

I've noticed if a car has bigger differences between left and right magnitude in the horn and midbass the worce the car will sound in the end. Yes L/R eq can do wonders but if there's install options that get a more similar response between left and right that is what usually produces a better sounding tune. 

Overall I like underdash horn better, it just has less problems, but it sure is a lot of fun to throw them up top and play with them that way. 

On a side note , top mounted dash horns can't sound good unless there's a cone speaker right next to it or unless the horn can get down to 300hz (500hz at the least) I've done dash horns with door and kick mounted midbass and ALL of the attention gets drawn to the horn and there just isn't a good blend. It can surly sound good and listenable but as far as getting a upper dash horn and let's say a door speaker to match up the horn has got to be able to play silly low. And that just can't realistically happen in 99% of cars. 

I know some will shake there heads at the idea because of some install from the 90s with some silly EQTs and dial up crossovers that didn't work. It can work, not very well and it takes a lot lot of tuning but it can. 

Of course this is just my subjective experience and personal opinion.

Do you have any install pics you can share? 
Or any cool stuff we can see? 

Cheers


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## Eric Stevens

My horn designs are intended to operate off axis under the dash and the pattern control when on axis is not anywhere as effective. If you are more on axis you need to have a shorter path length difference.


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## oabeieo

Eric is exactly right , I mean obviously there no argument there stupid low PLD is a must to even think about it. I have what I like to squeak by as 3.5" PLD with some time consuming placement but it is more closer to 4" from center of motor to center of other side motor. 

Even with a super low PLD the reflections just can't Be dealt with unless you don't plan on driving or seeing out the windshield because the windshield will be covered in acoustical padding. Dsp makes it better , a lot better and the height is very fun to listen to , underdash works better still.


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## fredswain

Eric Stevens said:


> My horn designs are intended to operate off axis under the dash and the pattern control when on axis is not anywhere as effective. If you are more on axis you need to have a shorter path length difference.


I wondered when you'd pop back by. I was chatting with Matt this week. I need some new horn bodies. I still have motors.


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## fredswain

oabeieo said:


> fredswain said:
> 
> 
> 
> You sit low in my FC RX-7. The horns are way out there. There's a large center console but it actually doesn't hurt the imaging. Horns work beautifully in it. When we did vehicles where you sat higher up or that were wider, sometimes you had to do some things differently. In the RX-7 you install horns conventionally, tune them, and go. It's easy. They don't even have to be have big cross firing angles. The large body ID horns or the Waveguides work well in that car. My personal favorite in that car was actually the waveguides but I could never say that working for one of the biggest ID competition shops! The mini horns imaged the best but had the most narrow stage in that car. When you get to a wide vehicle, you want horns that have more of a crossfire to them, like the mini horns. We had 2 vehicles that had the full size versions of that design. One was Earl Will's Impala and the other was Dave Robert's Dodge Ram truck. Matt disputes those horns being in that truck but I think he's just getting old and senile! The large body ID horns or the Waveguides wouldn't work that well in those applications. It was all about controlled dispersion, hence the CD in the name of the ID horns.
> 
> My wife has a CX-5. I've been playing with it a bit. The waveguides are not a good choice in it, although seating height isn't really the problem. A mini horn would probably work well but I personally prefer a horn crossed over lower than a mini. That's just me. I'd love to find a set of those old wide body ID's. Before the minis came out we referred to the horns as the standards and the widebodies although the mouth was physically the same size. The angle of the throat was different, more like the mini horns. Matt now calls the full size horns the widebodies and gets confused about the name of the others. I'm going back to that senility theory! I'd bet the wide bodies would work just fine in the CX-5 assuming they'd fit under the dash. You just need to find out which ones work best for each application. We actually did have a couple of cars that stayed with conventional mids and tweets instead of horns, even though horns were our typically our first choice.
> 
> 
> 
> I had a santafe that couldn't get horns to image above the dash and could always tell they were down low. And I had 7 cars before that that horns worked excellent (a vw , 5 hondas , Ford Focus) the santafe I did everything from minis to full size to every eq crossover combo possible and reverse polarity on everything in between and it never sounded good. Had to cross it at 2k just so I could get the doors to have somewhat of a good stage and it was low (inside the dash low) and couldn't get it above the dash line , so one day I was looking at PBs pics of his home made dash horns and tried it and it was truly a combfiltering abomination but gosh dam the height trade off was worth it in every way and I [email protected]&ked with it and screwed with it and made it sound pretty decent and learned a whole lot about a combfilter along the way.
> 
> I got rid of the car and got another Honda and underdash works fine. Nice wide pinpoint stage on both sides of car. But I keep switching back to on dash horns because I prefer the sound. It's riddled with destructive interferences and won't get past 100db without the image going to scatter town, but right at 100db man , I love it! Yes I have gobs and gobs of FIR filtering and room correction (enough taps to do 4 systems worth) and it wasn't a choice, it was the only way to get it to this point...
> 
> So I really do believe, There are two types of horn users and listeners,
> One that takes the height compromise for a correct stage that has depth and has substantially less reflection problems and has a stage that on the bleeding edge if the top of dash board and there's those who don't want the height compromise or don't prefer it because of vehicle layout or what not.
> 
> It's like underdash horns work amazing if you can get a HUgE psycho acoustic stage , and very little except maybe the 3-5k range sounds to come from under the dash , that's probably why they sound so much better pushed so far back when possible.
> 
> I've noticed if a car has bigger differences between left and right magnitude in the horn and midbass the worce the car will sound in the end. Yes L/R eq can do wonders but if there's install options that get a more similar response between left and right that is what usually produces a better sounding tune.
> 
> Overall I like underdash horn better, it just has less problems, but it sure is a lot of fun to throw them up top and play with them that way.
> 
> On a side note , top mounted dash horns can't sound good unless there's a cone speaker right next to it or unless the horn can get down to 300hz (500hz at the least) I've done dash horns with door and kick mounted midbass and ALL of the attention gets drawn to the horn and there just isn't a good blend. It can surly sound good and listenable but as far as getting a upper dash horn and let's say a door speaker to match up the horn has got to be able to play silly low. And that just can't realistically happen in 99% of cars.
> 
> I know some will shake there heads at the idea because of some install from the 90s with some silly EQTs and dial up crossovers that didn't work. It can work, not very well and it takes a lot lot of tuning but it can.
> 
> Of course this is just my subjective experience and personal opinion.
> 
> Do you have any install pics you can share?
> Or any cool stuff we can see?
> 
> Cheers
Click to expand...

The biggest problem I actually see with the CX-5 isn't going to be width, since it's based on a small Mazda 3, or even the seating height. It's going to come down to the effect of the wide center console. When a driver is in the seat, their body and legs drastically reduce any open area for that horn to fire out of. Without both sides being heard well, the stage will fall hard. Maybe that's the problem that Patrick was referring to in his? Mine is the Grand Touring model so it already has a center channel. 

I'll try to dig up some pics of my upper dash horns. Looked cool but didn't image very good.


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## oabeieo

fredswain said:


> The biggest problem I actually see with the CX-5 isn't going to be width, since it's based on a small Mazda 3, or even the seating height. It's going to come down to the effect of the wide center console. When a driver is in the seat, their body and legs drastically reduce any open area for that horn to fire out of. Without both sides being heard well, the stage will fall hard. Maybe that's the problem that Patrick was referring to in his? Mine is the Grand Touring model so it already has a center channel.
> 
> I'll try to dig up some pics of my upper dash horns. Looked cool but didn't image very good.


Oh I'm certain your right on the money. The santafe had a wide consul , even tho my "ears" could see the horn line of sight that's exactly what it did. Towel made it better but couldn't cure it. The cx-5 has taller seat brackets that raise it way off the floor pan though compared to the Mazda 3 to make up for the taller roof. The silver side pieces at the dash to consul junction doesn't help either.

Can you lower the seat in those? Does the power seat have a down control? 
The grand touring is more like the car? 

image sharing


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## fredswain

It's the top of the line. The seats do motorize down as well. I'm 6'-1" so I like it all the way down and I sit decently far back. My wife sits higher and forward. The stock audio system is weird. The doors are only subs. All mids and highs are on the dash but it just always sounds like something is out of phase. I've always been very sensitive to phase and can instantly tell if I'm in a car with a mid out of phase for imaging purposes. The sound drives me crazy. The stock system only stages from the near pillar to the mid off the dash. It's terrible.


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## oabeieo

fredswain said:


> It's the top of the line. The seats do motorize down as well. I'm 6'-1" so I like it all the way down and I sit decently far back. My wife sits higher and forward. The stock audio system is weird. The doors are only subs. All mids and highs are on the dash but it just always sounds like something is out of phase. I've always been very sensitive to phase and can instantly tell if I'm in a car with a mid out of phase for imaging purposes. The sound drives me crazy. The stock system only stages from the near pillar to the mid off the dash. It's terrible.


Haha.... I wonder who the guys is at the factory of these automotive manufacturers who is getting the demo of the new special edition sound system and has to make the decision on if it will go into production. Or if such person exists. I see all these different OE systems and even the better ones make me wonder who in the right mind designs these things. I mean even a cost driven design can still have phase issues worked out.

I think the answer is simple for that car tho. It will work, and I think that's the sentiment really. Even a poorly executed horn install with good eq work will still be more enjoyable than a direct radiator. May not have easy imaging and take some extra efforts but would still be more fun to listen to than perhaps a direct radiator. Not saying that car would be poorly executed, I never installed horns in one so I can't say. It looks like it would have some challenges but not more than about any other modern car.

If you can find those pics that would be sweet.


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## oabeieo

Also, I don't think anyone has the ability to forecast the freakiness of a cars acoustics. 
And I've learned that when everyone says something won't work and you overcome it anyway proves that. It takes a long time of screwing with a system in a car to really get a good idea where the combfilters are and have a good sence about the cars acoustics to make good decisions on how to get it to do what you want. But some people definitely luck out on there car that is for sure. Some cars just plain sound good. And that's why my car still doesn't have all the custom work done. It took a year to really know how things behave inside. Doing custom work and not having the sound right is too hard of a pill to swallow.


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## Elgrosso

Best thread 
Conflicting informations, normal, but very useful.
Interesting the point about the height relation horn/driver head, never thought of it.
My cabin is pretty low, seats in back and down at max, I can only pass a hand under them etc, so maybe it had some impact here. 
Also the psychoacoustic effect, as I’m sure I'm in...
For ex I didn't have my system for few weeks, but just re-installed it back recently. And I don't feel like it’s as good as I thought last year.
But maybe I messed something up as I just re-use what I "think" was the last tune.




fredswain said:


> Try it. You may like it. You may hate it. You are essentially sitting inside of an enclosure that has varying amounts of reflections around you. What works on paper in a free field or a home environment may have absolutely zero relevance to your car. Just because logic doesn't indicate that something shouldn't work doesn't mean that you shouldn't still try it...


Agreed! I’ll see what I can do soon.

Usually when I test one parameter, placement, aiming etc I don't tune.
Seemed logic if there's a winner un-tuned, then once tuned it should be even more obvious. But maybe with horns it's different?
Maybe the wrong start can be the one with the best potential?
I mean so many things are already different with horns.
Like how I was surprised the first time I heard them! While the concept itself of deep under dash speakers just didn't make sense to me at that time.
Anyway with Dirac now it’s much faster to tune so...

Here's a pic to show how they follow the curve of the dash.










I really enjoy them right now, since 8 months in this place I focused on mid-basses and sub. But always wondered if I could improve.
I can probably gain few inches in depth, and 1 or 2" in width if I relocate some harness. So I'll try quick and dirty. With some foam under the dash like you explained, as it is not that clean behind.


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## fredswain

This was the first horn iteration in my RX-7. These were USD waveguides. Incidentally, the mid bass speakers in this setup were in the rear shock towers. It was a copy of Bob Troxler's RX-7. By this point the carpet was toast and the horn grilles had stains from being kicked many times. Forgive the ugliness. It was about to get torn down here. You can see the beginning of a kick panel on the driver's side. I never finished that iteration as I was about to replace the carpet in this pic but found a place for 8's in the floor.


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## fredswain

This was during the upper dash construction for the fiberglass mini horns. The defroster vents were being kept functional. Here's also how the Image 8's were being integrated into the floor. There's a crumple zone that you can cut into. Once carpeted, the floor looks stock. It doesn't stock out at all.


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## fredswain

Here's what the floor mounted 8's looked like before the new carpet went in. I rebuilt the door panels after this too as you can see in the last pic. There weren't any speakers in the door. On the passenger side, the factory ecu was originally where the 8 is mounted. I extended each wire to relocate it to under the passenger seat. Because there was a false floor on the passenger side over the ecu in stock form, once I was done with the install I actually had more legroom than stock. This was my only car back then so I drove it torn apart and it was almost always torn apart!


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## fredswain

Here was the finished upper dash install and a pic after construction before it was painted and installed. The date on the picture is wrong btw.


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## DBlevel

Just swapped these Image Dynamics cd-3 in this past weekend in my 04 Accord sedan. They replaced the CD1e v2 set that was installed. Must say really liking the cd-3's very much. 

However I didn't use the fiberglass bodies pictured. I swapped the drivers and kept the (I think) they're the polyurethane bodies that the CD1e v2 used. Didn't feel like making any brackets for the fiberglass bodies. Was a quick swap to the other bodies and then remount them back up lol.


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## oabeieo

I love old photos! There's so cool to look at going back in time. Brings me back to the good ol days. 

Oh I see what u did having horns blow into windshield. Yeah that wouldn't have worked very well , my upper set is on axis and the drivers are basically right in front of each passenger I dropped some PLD that way width wasn't really badly affected the driver left ear is in the beam (barley) same for passenger right ear. ... but I bet it was fun to listen to none the less. Love those kicks! I think I'm going to attempt something similar here soon as it warms up outside 

The rx7 I bet was fantastic. Low seats , low dash , big kicks. Such a cool old car also


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## oabeieo

DBlevel said:


> Just swapped these Image Dynamics cd-3 in this past weekend in my 04 Accord sedan. They replaced the CD1e v2 set that was installed. Must say really liking the cd-3's very much.
> 
> However I didn't use the fiberglass bodies pictured. I swapped the drivers and kept the (I think) they're the polyurethane bodies that the CD1e v2 used. Didn't feel like making any brackets for the fiberglass bodies. Was a quick swap to the other bodies and then remount them back up lol.



IIRC The CD1 in fiberglass had a smaller body . Eric could confirm that . 
You should get the urethane ones tho  

What driver was the cd3? That was the Radion wasn't it ? I never got to try that one


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## Souths1der

Are horns too costly or complicated for a casual car audio guy to get and play/test with? I like learning and experimenting, trying different things. Within reason of course. I can't seem to find any place to buy these online, so I have no frame of reference as to cost.


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## oabeieo

Souths1der said:


> Are horns too costly or complicated for a casual car audio guy to get and play/test with? I like learning and experimenting, trying different things. Within reason of course. I can't seem to find any place to buy these online, so I have no frame of reference as to cost.


Eric Stevens can get you some PM him 
He makes them 

And there easy to do, just need a good eq and a flexible crossover to run them


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## DBlevel

oabeieo said:


> IIRC The CD1 in fiberglass had a smaller body . Eric could confirm that .
> You should get the urethane ones tho
> 
> What driver was the cd3? That was the Radion wasn't it ? I never got to try that one


the stock driver is an Altec Lansing model 909-8a.

Yea switched them over to the urethane bodies before I put them in.


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## oabeieo

Oh sweet, is it aluminum? 
I completely missed those. I think when those came out I was still on my 4year drug binge 
And threw away a good chunk of life. About 2001-2004 was the worst for me and I missed out on a lot of cool car audio.


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## Patrick Bateman

DBlevel said:


> the stock driver is an Altec Lansing model 909-8a.
> 
> Yea switched them over to the urethane bodies before I put them in.


Hmmm. These look quite good. Any idea why they're not more expensive? I would expect something like this would be fairly collectible, but they seem to be readily available on eBay for $200ish

Is there something I'm missing?


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## oabeieo

Yeah it sure does. I would love to get my hands on a set . I would definitely want to ID version just for collectors sakes. 

I'm very curious about this driver, the altec page doesn't specify what the diaphragm material is it just says metal 

The phase plug looks sort of like the TAD phase plug. I would be interested in finding some. 

http://alteclansingunofficial.nlenet.net/proloudspeakers/smalldrivers/909-8AData.pdf


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## Eric Stevens

oabeieo said:


> IIRC The CD1 in fiberglass had a smaller body . Eric could confirm that .
> You should get the urethane ones tho
> 
> What driver was the cd3? That was the Radion wasn't it ? I never got to try that one


The fiberglass horns has the same basic flare as the Urethane, only small tweaks.

CD3 was driver OEM'd by Altec based upn the 902-8B with a lighter diaphragm out of a monitor they made for the Japanese market. 

The CD2 Comp superceded this driver with better performance everywhere at a lower cost.


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## Eric Stevens

oabeieo said:


> Oh sweet, is it aluminum?
> I completely missed those. I think when those came out I was still on my 4year drug binge
> And threw away a good chunk of life. About 2001-2004 was the worst for me and I missed out on a lot of cool car audio.


These were early drivers from 1993 / 1994 and were replaced with the CD2 Comp in 1995 time frame.

Radian was our OEM for the original CD-1 in 1993/94 . These were replaced by the CD2Comp which was the same price with much better performance.


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## corcraft

^And a few years later the compneo is out of this world.


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## oabeieo

Thanks for the info. Yeah I always wondered the time frame on different sets. 
I know I had to miss something in those years but that too makes sence I didn't even know about horns until 1996 and immediately got a set. 

I remember another shop in town at the time had a set of all black cd1s with plastic motor asset.I dismantled it and it was a thin paper cone diaphragm with a cap (piezo) and that horn was definitely smaller than the cd2 v.2 set I just bought that I can remember...was there a smaller horn for cd1s ever? I remember it had ID stickers in the horn. And I never saw a mini in real life until 2010 just in pics but I always remember the mini having the driver mounted sideways. Or am I bonkers


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## Eric Stevens

The fiberglass horns and the Urethane are teh same basic dimensions but the Urethane are slightly taller to give thickness to the edge of the mouth and they have the tabs on them for mounting, but the height and width of the horn mouth are the same. Its an optical illusion caused by the lack of mounting tabs.


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## funkalicious

oabeieo: Check out Great Plains Audio. They got the original (from my understanding) Altec toolings and are building a range of drivers based on them. I've used their compression drivers and really liked them. Top notch build quality.


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## oabeieo

funkalicious said:


> oabeieo: Check out Great Plains Audio. They got the original (from my understanding) Altec toolings and are building a range of drivers based on them. I've used their compression drivers and really liked them. Top notch build quality.


I definitely will check it out. Thank you! 

I sorta want the original ID set tho too. 

I have right now in my collection 

Cd1pro
Cd1ev.3
Cd1ev.2
Cd2 comp (2 generations de45)
Cd ultra neo
Both types SA drivers current drivers 

What I need to complete is 
Cd1v.1 with oldskool fiberglass horn
The cd3
Cd2 Mylar 
Old skool minibodies that accepts big drivers
Previous SA models 
And whatever else that was made that I don't know about.

I had at one time a set of cd2mylars but were missing the ID stickers so I sold them...

I would so much love to find some old ass original ID stuff that still has stickers and serial numbers.


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## DBlevel

Eric Stevens said:


> The fiberglass horns has the same basic flare as the Urethane, only small tweaks.
> 
> CD3 was driver OEM'd by Altec based upn the 902-8B with a lighter diaphragm out of a monitor they made for the Japanese market.
> 
> The CD2 Comp superceded this driver with better performance everywhere at a lower cost.



Maybe I'll try the cd2's and see how those sound in the car. Definitely liking the cd3's tho. Huge difference in those and the CD1e drivers.


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## DBlevel

Patrick Bateman said:


> Hmmm. These look quite good. Any idea why they're not more expensive? I would expect something like this would be fairly collectible, but they seem to be readily available on eBay for $200ish
> 
> Is there something I'm missing?


Their is a company selling the Altec drivers new for a little over $400 shipped for a pair.


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## LumbermanSVO

oabeieo said:


> Cd2 Mylar


This is what I have for my Bronco, bought them brand new way back when and they just sat on the shelf for years and years. The Bronco was the first car I ever put them in and immediately regretted letting them sit so long. The vocals are sooooooo sweet on them.


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## oabeieo

LumbermanSVO said:


> This is what I have for my Bronco, bought them brand new way back when and they just sat on the shelf for years and years. The Bronco was the first car I ever put them in and immediately regretted letting them sit so long. The vocals are sooooooo sweet on them.


Yeah I had a set and regret sellin them in many ways .

Do yours have ID stickers? Weren't those just a team ID driver? 
In all the pics I saw of them plus mine I don't think I ever saw a set that has badging. 

The new compneo is much like those as far as vocals go. But play up high really good too except it's 1/4th the size.  

That was the largest motor in the ID lineup wasn't it? I can't think of one that had a bigger size all around.


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## LumbermanSVO

oabeieo said:


> Yeah I had a set and regret sellin them in many ways .
> 
> Do yours have ID stickers? Weren't those just a team ID driver?
> In all the pics I saw of them plus mine I don't think I ever saw a set that has badging.
> 
> The new compneo is much like those as far as vocals go. But play up high really good too except it's 1/4th the size.
> 
> That was the largest motor in the ID lineup wasn't it? I can't think of one that had a bigger size all around.


Mine have ID stickers and serial numbers. They also weigh 8lbs each!


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## DBlevel

LumbermanSVO said:


> Mine have ID stickers and serial numbers. They also weigh 8lbs each!


Yeah mine too lol


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## oabeieo

DBlevel said:


> Yeah mine too lol


Okay now I really need a set


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## DBlevel

The cd2's ..........


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## DBlevel

First pic also had the cd3 drivers with JBL 2415 diaphragm on them......


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## corcraft

Hott digity dawg!
Round 4 on mids.

Recap
1st I used x57s because I had a spare pair from my trucks. I was impressed but I wanted a litte more midbass.

2nd
As noted went to dyns, had all kinds of problems but mid bass was nuts... I spent a lot of time trying to make them work because I so wanted that midbass but they just wouldn't mate to the horns. 

3rd
Back to x57s and was happy again.

4th 
My newest and by far the best yet, old es x69s I got from a member some time ago. Long story short the carrier damaged the baskets in shipping (not a fan of composite baskets anyway). After sitting on the shelf for a couple months waiting on the carrier to call for them I thought maybe I can try and repair the baskets. A couple of hot staples and a little epoxy later they're back alive! I hope they hold up and seem like they will. Btw, the carrier never did stand behind their insurance but the seller did. Anyways, I put them in 2 days ago and haven't touched the eq or crossover. Plug and play and I'm way ahead of where I was even untouched. Same great midrange and blending as the x57s with a lot more low end authority. They aren't quite beating my chest yet but xover is still 80hz 24db at the moment and they're tapping on it. I plan to try around 72hz 24db today, take a look at the curve and maybe make some more changes. I'm still loving the horns! My only regret is not using them in a daily driver and perhaps a car I wouldn't mind cutting... I'm a little envious of lsm''s challenger with 10" mids and horns through the firewall


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## estione

look forward to some pics


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## corcraft

estione said:


> look forward to some pics


There are some pics of the install in this thread. As far as the x69s mounted. I did take pics of them installed as well as the repair of the baskets but my phone decided it was time to go to phone heaven the night I took the pics so I no longer have.


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## Eric Stevens

corcraft said:


> Hott digity dawg!
> Round 4 on mids.
> 
> Recap
> 1st I used x57s because I had a spare pair from my trucks. I was impressed but I wanted a litte more midbass.
> 
> 2nd
> As noted went to dyns, had all kinds of problems but mid bass was nuts... I spent a lot of time trying to make them work because I so wanted that midbass but they just wouldn't mate to the horns.
> 
> 3rd
> Back to x57s and was happy again.
> 
> 4th
> My newest and by far the best yet, old es x69s I got from a member some time ago. Long story short the carrier damaged the baskets in shipping (not a fan of composite baskets anyway). After sitting on the shelf for a couple months waiting on the carrier to call for them I thought maybe I can try and repair the baskets. A couple of hot staples and a little epoxy later they're back alive! I hope they hold up and seem like they will. Btw, the carrier never did stand behind their insurance but the seller did. Anyways, I put them in 2 days ago and haven't touched the eq or crossover. Plug and play and I'm way ahead of where I was even untouched. Same great midrange and blending as the x57s with a lot more low end authority. They aren't quite beating my chest yet but xover is still 80hz 24db at the moment and they're tapping on it. I plan to try around 72hz 24db today, take a look at the curve and maybe make some more changes. I'm still loving the horns! My only regret is not using them in a daily driver and perhaps a car I wouldn't mind cutting... I'm a little envious of lsm''s challenger with 10" mids and horns through the firewall



Glad you are enjoying more of my creations, The X69 basket was a nightmare as the plastic specified was not used and they are brittle. 

A lot of the chest feeling comes from the subwoofer, when you get it set up correctly where they blend seemlessly you can get that in the chest feeling even crossed at 90 Hz.

At the volume it takes to get that punch to the chest you will know the subs are behind pretty much no mtter what you do. I have even had front mounted subs give the impression a subwoofer was behind me.


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## corcraft

Just added a victory sonics tube preamp from a member here that builds them, victor_inox. Wow! About as impressed as I was the 1st time I tried horns. For anyone that hasn't used a tube amp or preamp; you owe it to yourself to try. Warmth, depth, rich and full


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## dcfis

corcraft said:


> Just added a victory sonics tube preamp from a member here that builds them, victor_inox. Wow! About as impressed as I was with the horns. For anyone that hasn't used a tube amp or preamp. You owe it to yourself to try it.


Pics?


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## corcraft

Pics of?


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