# My beef with second skin



## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

I have to work much more now a days for less money and have more responsibility,
This in turn is making me a very picky shopper, in looking at dealing with sound deadening products.
I read as much on the subject as I could before shelling out cash for product…

My major beef here is sell what you say you sell, change your product? Better change what you say you are selling, I don’t think that’s asking for a whole lot, yes ANT this is directed at you, in front of god and country.

The B-stock Damplifier Pro product is fine, and I got what I ordered.

Luxury Liner™ is not what your site claims it to be, lets look at some facts from your site, literally the FAQ tab under this product, states that an open cell backing is on the product, I spoke to you about this and nothing has changed on your web site, I have also givin you the time to do so before posting anything. the PDF instructions say the same thing foam backing, this is in fact what you say you are selling, 
I am livid at the fact I was sent plain MLV, and you seem to think your website told me something it in fact did not, its all over your own website that it has a foam backing.

Is this a big deal? Well lets see, I now need a damping layer and vinyl glue, my weekend install plans shot to hell, gotta go back to sea for a month before I can even place an order. and yet more money to get …to where I thought I already was, 
As read under the directions to use your product, as read under the FAQ of your product, as read under your own forums of your product….

This my friend is just plain and simple.....its not ok, and is in fact false advertising of your product…on your own site…

Sell what you say, have integrity and do what you say…

Not pleased with what I was sent, nor your response to me, nor knowing and continuing to have false information on your website about your products misleading yet more people shelling out there hard earned money….

I feel better now, rant off…
HYS


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

Luxury Liner used to have an open-cell foam layer on MLV, this must have changed- recently.


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## Stage7 (Jan 5, 2010)

Maybe they sent you the wrong product by accident? I've only spoken to him a couple of times, but Anthony seemed like good guy. I'm curious to see his response.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Did you call Ant and ask what the deal was?


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

didnt call, used e-mail. this was his reply...cut and pasted, I was and am unhappy with what he said, and did after the fact.
In all fairness I did not notice the price drop, but there are still way to many places on the website leading me and others to belive it has a backing/decoupler/ocf what ever ya wanta call it. 


Hey Chip.
am a bit confused...

The Luxury LIner has not had a foam liner in quite some time.
Every singel discription on our site indicatres it is only MLV. Even the picture is MLV with no foam. Several times it even suggests that you purchase Overkill or Overkill Pro with the Luxury Liner to have it work effectivly.

You are correct about the instruction though. They are from the old product with the foam. I will change that imediately.

I am sorry you are not happy but aside from leaving the old instruction up, there we have done everything we can to make our customers aware of the change (which in cluded a 30% price drop,and a product that give you 20% jmore vinyl!

ANT


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

just to be clear about what I am saying here.
this is under the FAQ section of the Luxury Liner ss website as of today.

FAQ

Which side of Luxury Liner does the adhesive get applied to?
The Second Skin Contact Adhesive should always go on the foam side of Luxury Liner. The foam side should then get applied on top of the foil side of Damplifier or Damplifier Pro. The vinyl side of Luxury Liner will always face the passengers in the car.

What is the difference between Luxury Liner and Luxury Liner Pro?
Luxury Liner and Luxury Liner Pro share the same heavy vinyl barrier, but regular Luxury Liner is bonded to an open celled foam, while Luxury Liner Pro is bonded to a water resistant closed cell foam. It is because of this heavy duty closed cell foam that Luxury Liner is the better option for reducing unwanted noise and heat. 

What is the difference between Luxury Liner and Overkill Pro?
Luxury Liner is a noise barrier. Overkill Pro is a noise absorbing foam filter. 
Both products get applied on top of vibration dampers like Damplifier Pro or Spectrum in order to reduce airborne sound waves, but they do it in two totally different ways.

Overkill filters out specific frequencies that are able to penetrate the first vibration damping layer, but because it is so light, it allows many other sound wave frequencies to pass right through.

Luxury Liner is a barrier that blocks and reflects the most difficult airborne sound waves that Overkill Pro is not capable of handling.


under the instuctions on how to use this product.
Second Skin Luxury Liner is a two part composite mat consisting of a vinyl barrier
laminated to an open celled acoustical foam. Luxury Liner is designed to reflect and
reject specific airborne sound waves associated with Road, engine and exhaust noise.
For best results, apply Luxury Liner on top of a vibration damper like Second Skin
Damplifier Pro or Spectrum.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Here is what I see when looking at the product overview which is likely what you also saw first before purchasing...












While I agree that the FAQ and other details like the install instructions hadn't been updated I think the site made it quite clear what you were purchasing.

I have my own website and know what it's like to make sure everything is current. It's a huge task. In fact, I can think of 3 different products that are out of stock but aren't noted on my own site. 

*runs to go update site*


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

(I think the site made it quite clear what you were purchasing.)

Please enlighten me ???? 

I have shown many examples of this site saying this product has a backing..
Please back up what you are saying here.


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## lucas569 (Apr 17, 2007)

runs to get popcorn....


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

chipss said:


> (I think the site made it quite clear what you were purchasing.)
> 
> Please enlighten me ????
> 
> ...


Chip, the web page screenshot that Steven posted has Luxury Liner's product description listed. It clearly states that it is not foam backed. Are you not able to view the screenshot that was posted by chance?

Zach


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## [email protected] (Jun 12, 2008)

I only see the foam backing on the LLpro in the description


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## Lanson (Jan 9, 2007)

lucas569 said:


> runs to get popcorn....



I'm pretty sure this will get resolved amicably.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> Chip, the web page screenshot that Steven posted has Luxury Liner's product description listed. It clearly states that it is not foam backed. Are you not able to view the screenshot that was posted by chance?
> 
> Zach





BeatsDownLow said:


> I only see the foam backing on the LLpro in the description


Yep, that's what I was saying. Not trying to raise a stink but I think his site was pretty clear at that point as to what was being purchased.

Don't get me wrong though. I totally know what you're saying. Until I read this thread I had no idea that regular luxery liner DIDN'T have the foam on the back anymore. It was because you knew about the product in advance and didn't pay attention to the actual page content that you ordered from that the mistake was made. It sucks but I don't think Ant is to blame really. I understand why your pissed though; time wasted is time wasted...regardless of the reason.


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## ANT (Oct 15, 2005)

You are correct chip
The FAQ page was not changed. I appologize for that. I thought I changed all the pages that made mention of the old, open celled foam backing. I was wrong.
I am not complaining, but in your first thread, you say:



> I have also givin you the time to do so before posting anything. the PDF instructions say the same thing foam backing, this is in fact what you say you are selling


After your email I went through again and looked things over and still did not see anythign that mentioned the OCF. So please, if there are any other areas on our web site (not the Second Skin forum) please tell me now so I can make the change so other people don't get confused when they order.

I am in the process of making the change to the FAQ page, and have already removed the instruction.

ANT


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## Horsemanwill (Jun 1, 2008)

Luxury Liner™


Luxury Liner is a Mass Loaded Vinyl - MLV - noise barrier that gets placed on top of your Damplifier or Damplifier Pro CLD Vibrtation Damper to block automotive road, engine and exhaust drone. 
For best results first apply a layer of our Overkill or Overkill Pro closed cell foam to decouple the Mass Loaded Vinyl Noise Barrier.


where as 

Luxury Liner Pro is our Mass Loaded Vinyl barrier - MLV
Unlike regular Luxury Liner MLV barrier, the Pro comes loaded to a closed cell foam decoupler to save time.
Apply Luxury Liner Pro on top of Damplifier or Damplifier Pro CLD sound deadening mats to block road noise, engine & exhaust noise.

so you "thought" you were ordering the LLP but instead you orderd LL. I don't see where Ant is at fault. there was NO false advertisement he did not lead you on in any way shape or form. you just Misread what was clearly posted.


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## Robin W. (Feb 18, 2010)

I was recently researching sound deadening material, and looked closely at second skin products. I swear the first time I looked at the site LL and LLP had foam. If the product name didn't change and it wasn't clearly stated that there was a change in the product I would have assumed it was still the same product I had looked at previously. I can see how the mistake could have been made, and if Canadian orders were accepted on the site I may have made the same mistake. This is no offence to Ant, nor trying to tell him how to run his business but if there was a mistake on my site confusing what a product actually was I would try and make it right for the customer. In this case I agree with the OP mainly because I had been on the site many times and had the same impression of what the product was based on old information and the recent FAQ.

However I think it is very clear now as to what the product is and I know I probably wouldn't make the mistake based on the information posted now.


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## chipss (Nov 13, 2009)

well people it was not clear to me at the time I placed my order, rereading and knowing what I now know it is, hindsight is 20/20, in the end I will be better off anyway, thicker MLV, thicker de-coupler.

my install pushed back yet again.

out of all this the only thing I wanted was the website to remove where it said the product has a backing, ANT I am a boat captain that’s my job, with its own set of issues.
proofreading your site, not my job, having correct info on your site covers your butt, not mine. 

Out to sea I go.

HYS




DIYMA said:


> You are correct chip
> The FAQ page was not changed. I appologize for that. I thought I changed all the pages that made mention of the old, open celled foam backing. I was wrong.
> I am not complaining, but in your first thread, you say:
> 
> ...


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

chipss said:


> well people it was not clear to me at the time I placed my order, rereading and knowing what I now know it is, hindsight is 20/20, in the end I will be better off anyway, thicker MLV, thicker de-coupler.
> 
> my install pushed back yet again.
> 
> ...


What complications have you guys seen from the oil spill? Just curious to hear it from the horse's mouth rather than the media slant.


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## sam3535 (Jan 21, 2007)

mikey7182 said:


> What complications have you guys seen from the oil spill? Just curious to hear it from the horse's mouth rather than the media slant.


For most vessels, little to none other than avoiding the well/spill site and possibly having to decon before entering certain ports/waterways. To the OP, safe trip.


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## emperorjj1 (Sep 10, 2008)

im just wondering when you purchased the LL. Yes it changed and thats where the confusion came about BUT im interested to know when the initial order was placed. only reason im saying is because there was a time when all the verbage on the actual order page (and all tabs thruout) were changed to the new product and i know this because i was the one who pointed it out to ant

i ordered a cd once thinking it was the explicit content but turns out i was going so quickly i didnt look at it closely enough. i am personally interested in how sure you are that you actually looked. and you know what ill put my money where my mouth is. If you can prove to me via invoice or whatever that your order was placed before the change then ill send you a sheet of LLP on me. if not. well...


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## JDMRB1ODY (Oct 11, 2008)

I just wish someday LLP would have adhesive already on it to speed up installation and mess. DP is definately the best around!!


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

JDMRB1ODY said:


> I just wish someday LLP would have adhesive already on it to speed up installation and mess. DP is definately the best around!!


You dont have to glue the LL. Most people use it on the floor, you can just lay it down and tape the sides off. As far as the doors, velcro should be enough, if you glue it down you'll be pretty mad at yourself in the future when you need to take it off to reuse.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Velcro LLP? No way.


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

Yes, industrial velcro or use vynl cement on the edges. Having the adhesive already on the LLP would be expensive and wasteful, considering you will cut up the mat and not need adhesive on every piece you use! Heck you could even duct tape it on if you can get it to stick to the vinyl.

Why not velcro it? Its just there to support it on the panel, then when the door panel is on the support will be shifted.


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## emperorjj1 (Sep 10, 2008)

ive herd of a few peeps on the second skin forum doing it with velcro. IDK thou almost anything ive put in my car thats an adhesive just falls off in the summer heat


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## Megalomaniac (Feb 12, 2007)

emperorjj1 said:


> ive herd of a few peeps on the second skin forum doing it with velcro. IDK thou almost anything ive put in my car thats an adhesive just falls off in the summer heat


Where are you putting this mat that its falling off onto the ground?


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## emperorjj1 (Sep 10, 2008)

quarter panels and doors... with the doors i think it was because i needed to cut it in half (i had 3 30" long pieces) the foil tape really just melted the adhesive anywhere i put it. when i first put the MMP on the roof i got lazy and didn't put the headliner back up that day. so next day i go out and it just fell down (i used foil tape and spray adhesive) and when i checked on the quarter panel the tape just fell to the bottom and took some but not all of the llp with it

mind you the day i did the mmp it had to be 105 or so out so in the car it was burning hot


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## Austin (Mar 12, 2009)

If you use contact cement it won't ever fall down ^^^


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

Plasticizer migration will cause most adhesives to fail on vinyl - PSA, contact cement, doesn't matter. If the adhesive isn't formulated to bond to vinyl it won't, at least not long term.


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## emperorjj1 (Sep 10, 2008)

i finally did after i saw it fell. contact cement and duct tape. but velcro adhesive isnt nearly as good as contact cement. velco would be an awesome idea unless your car gets hot enough to melt the adhesive. and i think mine would qualify

just food for thought before putting velcro for a vertical surface


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

emperorjj1 said:


> i finally did after i saw it fell. contact cement and duct tape. but velcro adhesive isnt nearly as good as contact cement. velco would be an awesome idea unless your car gets hot enough to melt the adhesive. and i think mine would qualify
> 
> just food for thought before putting velcro for a vertical surface


What I said above also applies to the PSA on self adhesive Velcro. The "Industrial" Velcro you buy at Home Depot isn't formulated for use with Vinyl.


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## emperorjj1 (Sep 10, 2008)

right but you wouldnt use the velcro adhesive on the vinyl side. if its supposed to be on a door or whatever you want the vinyl in foam out so you would put the velcro on the metal/vibration dampener and foam side of LLP right?


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## Rudeboy (Oct 16, 2005)

emperorjj1 said:


> right but you wouldnt use the velcro adhesive on the vinyl side. if its supposed to be on a door or whatever you want the vinyl in foam out so you would put the velcro on the metal/vibration dampener and foam side of LLP right?


I prefer inner skin / MLV / CCF for most modern cars doors. You are correct about the general sequence.


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## ItalynStylion (May 3, 2008)

What I do to hang the MLV in the doors is drill a small hole for plastic pop rivets. It's easy and you can get them for like .25cents at lowes. They have enough surface area to really hold up a large piece. I use two or three per piece.


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## alachua (Jun 30, 2008)

ItalynStylion said:


> What I do to hang the MLV in the doors is drill a small hole for plastic pop rivets. It's easy and you can get them for like .25cents at lowes. They have enough surface area to really hold up a large piece. I use two or three per piece.


Can you elaborate on this, with pictures possibly? I am considering putting MLV in my doors, and am stuck on how I would mount it.


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