# IN MY CAR TEST: Jl 12w7 vs Morel Ultimo 12 SC vs Phoenix Gold Ti12d Elite!



## oldskewl

Well guys, here we go! I have been using a JL 12w7 prowedge in my car for about two years and decided it was time for an upgrade. I have heard so many good things about the Morel Ultimo and Ultimo SC that I took a chance and ordered one. The PG Ti12d is in the picture because I purchased that just before I found the great deal on the Morel. 

So anyway, back to the test. My head unit is an Alpine CDA-9887. I am making full use of the time alignment, crossovers and parametric eq. For comps I am running a pair of Morel mt23 tweeters along with a set of Morel Supremo 6's glassed in my doors. Everything is crossed active by the Alpine (LP 63HZ 24db/Mid-low 80hz 12db/mid-hi 2500k 12db/hi 4k 18db).

My Morel comp set is powered by a Soundstream Reference 414s while an old school Phoenix ZPA 0.5 is handling subwoofer duties.

Enclosures consist of the stock prowedge for the JL while the Morel and PG will each have their own 1.21 cu3 3/4" sealed MDF enclosure stuffed with polyfil. 

The subwoofers will be mounted one at a time in the trunk of my 2007 Honda Accord. Tests will happen with the rear arm rest up and the arm rest in the down position, down lets more air in from the trunk.

Well those are the initial test parameters, more to follow shortly! :beerchug:


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## oldskewl

The PG and boxes arrived today. After pulling out the PG and inspecting it, all I can say is what a beast! Overbuilt and user serviceable, nice. I mounted the PG in the 1.21 box and used a generous amount of polyfil. 

After swapping the PG for the JL, I was about to fire things up when I was called into work, lame! I only had a brief listen before I was dragged away so a full on review will have to wait until tomorrow. In the short time I had I have to say the PG is for sure a more accurate sub than the JL however it doesnt get quite as loud. That Ti is a power monger for sure as I have 1200 watts RMS on the beast! It had a better balanced tone than the Jl which at times can get unruly. The PG integrated with my front end much better also.

Well thats all the time I had to review, here are the pics and expect an update tomorrow night!


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## kvndoom

Cocktease. 

That PG looks hella nasty though.


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## thomasluke

What the fu$k ive been waiting a week for this ****.
You need get to get your priorities strait work wtf :laugh:


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## TrickyRicky

I try to warn him about that sub. But I guess he didnt listen. Not only does it look nasty, you can tell they didnt put any time in design. "Hey lets throw some LEDs, I know that will get the teens attention". I bet the SQ will be just as the looks, NASTY. Dont get me wrong it might put out some nasty bass SPL.

This one is simple the W7 and Ultimo will be on top. This one (PG) will be put up for sale pretty soon.


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## quality_sound

Are you going to do any tuning of the crossover points/slopes or for each sub? Are you using enclosures optimized for each sub? If not all you're going to find out which sub fits that particular setup, not which is better overall.


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## FartinInTheTub

TrickyRicky said:


> I try to warn him about that sub. But I guess he didnt listen. Not only does it look nasty, you can tell they didnt put any time in design. "Hey lets throw some LEDs, I know that will get the teens attention". I bet the SQ will be just as the looks, NASTY. Dont get me wrong it might put out some nasty bass SPL.
> 
> This one is simple the W7 and Ultimo will be on top. This one (PG) will be put up for sale pretty soon.


Actually the Ti sub has great build quality. The 3 LEDs were to match the Titanium line of their amplifiers. The sound quality is excellent. That was a $900 subwoofer when it came out. Not that price makes a sub good... but this sub was not made for a teenager... it was a serious contender.

Here's some specs on the sub...

•Titanium Elite 12" Woofer
•User Replaceable Cone and Coil
•Aluminum cooling ring
•Built-In Blue LED's
•RMS Power Handling: 1000 Watts
•Max Power Handling: 2000 Watts
•Impedance: Dual 4 ohms
•Three, 3" High Temperature Voice Coil
•Cast Aluminum Basket
•Optimized for a small 0.75 sealed enclosure
•Kevlar reinforced pulp cone
•Custom tooled injection molded spider spacer with integrated venting
•Triple stack huge 235 ounce ceramic 5 magnet
•Large four layer aluminum 3 inch voice coil
•Machined aluminum cooling ring
•Computer optimized low carbon steel
•Cast aluminum heatsink
•Composite anodized aluminum flat panel diaphragm
•Large roll rubber surround
•Black anodized 3 inch former
•Computer opimized dual 9 inch spider
•Custom tooled cast aluminum basket


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## oldskewl

quality_sound said:


> Are you going to do any tuning of the crossover points/slopes or for each sub? Are you using enclosures optimized for each sub? If not all you're going to find out which sub fits that particular setup, not which is better overall.


Yes on slopes and points (love being active) and the enclosures are dead in the middle of the manufacturers sealed box recommendations.


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## quality_sound

Sweet. I saw your initial settings and the first thing that ran through my head was how boomy the W7 will sound with those settings. I MUCH prefer it crossed between 80Hz and 100Hz. I've even gone as high as 120Hz with it.


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## oldskewl

quality_sound said:


> Sweet. I saw your initial settings and the first thing that ran through my head was how boomy the W7 will sound with those settings. I MUCH prefer it crossed between 80Hz and 100Hz. I've even gone as high as 120Hz with it.


I tried it crossed at 80hz and it seemed worse as far as control... I am excited with my initial listen on the PG, is seems much more balanced than the JL with all the same settings. I am running my eq flat for now, will do some messing around with eqing after the first testing round.


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## quality_sound

When you use the higher crossover points on the W7 you need to turn it WAY down or it'll overpower everything. If you get the W7 back in for more testing give that a go. It'll take care of the blending, control, and boominess issues all at once.


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## oldskewl

quality_sound said:


> When you use the higher crossover points on the W7 you need to turn it WAY down or it'll overpower everything. If you get the W7 back in for more testing give that a go. It'll take care of the blending, control, and boominess issues all at once.


Will give it a shot. Yep, the 12w7 will get its turn in the car again, several times I am sure. Its my reference woofer just because I am so familiar with it...


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## Viejo Y Lento

Here are the t/s specs for the Ti12d Elite.

T/S Parameters:
Fs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .26.36 Hz
Re . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1.42 Ohms
Qms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4.94
Qes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0.632
Qts . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0.56
Vas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .34.1 liters
Mms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .371 grams
Cms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .98 uM/Newton
Vas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .34.1 Tesla-M
SPL (2.83V) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .86.18dB
Sd . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .495 sq cm
Xmax (p-p) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .50.5mm


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## piyush7243

Viejo Y Lento said:


> Here are the t/s specs for the Ti12d Elite.
> 
> T/S Parameters:
> Fs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .26.36 Hz
> Re . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1.42 Ohms
> Qms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .4.94
> Qes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0.632
> Qts . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .0.56
> Vas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .34.1 liters
> Mms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .371 grams
> Cms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .98 uM/Newton
> Vas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .34.1 Tesla-M
> SPL (2.83V) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .86.18dB
> Sd . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .495 sq cm
> Xmax (p-p) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .50.5mm


The stats look good..


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## oldskewl

HERE WE GO! ROUND 1, Jl Audio 12w7 vs Phoenix Gold Ti12d Elite!











I had a solid hour tonight with the PG and let me tell you, WOW! What a night and day improvement over the Jl! The Ti12d was smoother and was extremely balanced when compared to the Jl. When listening to the Ti the bass lines were wider, longer and the bass was right up front. The Ti sounds much more natural with very little decay, especially when compared to the 12w7. I also noticed my soundstage was planted firmly in front of me with the PG, the JL tends to override the front end with inconsistent output. The output was not flat with the JL, it would be in need of some serious eq to have any chance of running with the PG. Even then the Jl has so much decay between notes that IMHO no amount of eq will allow it to keep pace with the Ti12d.

The Jl is flabby and loose when compared directly to the PG. 

The JL wins in SPL however, thats no contest! The PG is a power monger, it ate up my 1200w RMS A/B amplifier without blinking an eye. I firmly believe the PG can handle 2000 watts RMS, thats no joke. If you have the power these old skewl PG subs would be hard to beat bang for the buck.

With all this said I believe the Jl would benefit from a slightly smaller enclosure while I have no doubt the PG would shine even brighter in a 1.5 cu3 box instead of my 1.2. 

Round 1 winner, the PHOENIX GOLD Ti12d Elite, hands down!! :thumbsup:


Next up, the Morel Ultimo SC vs the Phoenix Gold Ti12d Elite! 

The Ultimo will not be here until the middle/end of next week, so tune in next week friends, same bat time, same bat channel!


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## FartinInTheTub

The TI is a serious contender. Most people haven't heard this sub and look at the 3 leds and think it's the equivelant of a Boss sub or something. I'm building my home sub tonight for my ti12d elite. I'm just hoping the 1000 watts I give it from my home sub amplifier will be enough.


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## TrickyRicky

Since when was Phonix Gold a hi-end brand for them to try to retail a sub over 800.00?? I know the old school PG was top notch, but the new stuff is pretty much crap and by looking at that sub am proven right. Sorry guys but thats just my opinion.

And am sure you can find them for less than 300 brand new.


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## FartinInTheTub

TrickyRicky said:


> Since when was Phonix Gold a hi-end brand for them to try to retail a sub over 800.00?? I know the old school PG was top notch, but the new stuff is pretty much crap and by looking at that sub am proven right. Sorry guys but thats just my opinion.
> 
> And am sure you can find them for less than 300 brand new.


Actually they aren't sold anymore. And when this sub was sold Phoenix Gold was a much different company. This was the era of the Titanium ZX600, ZX500.4, ZX475... This isn't "new stuff" by any means. And speaking of new stuff... The RSD subs sound phenominal! I'm betting that they were one of the best subs for the money you could buy. $100 for a 12 with EXCELLENT SQ. We're all entitled to our opinions and I will respect yours.


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## Viejo Y Lento

TrickyRicky said:


> Since when was Phonix Gold a hi-end brand for them to try to retail a sub over 800.00?? I know the old school PG was top notch, but the new stuff is pretty much crap and by looking at that sub am proven right. Sorry guys but thats just my opinion.
> 
> And am sure you can find them for less than 300 brand new.


They haven't made that sub in several years.


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## TrickyRicky

Just goes to show I dont know **** about PG. Sorry.

Am still stuck on the first Cerwin Strokers.


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## FartinInTheTub

TrickyRicky said:


> Just goes to show I dont know **** about PG. Sorry.
> 
> Am still stuck on the first Cerwin Strokers.


The first strokers were incredible. Never owned one but always wanted to.


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## chithead

Looking forward to your review of the Ultimo SC - I am loving mine more and more every day!!!


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## TrickyRicky

FartinInTheTub said:


> The first strokers were incredible. Never owned one but always wanted to.


The newer version suck, well besides the PRO. I tried the second version and was very dissapointed with SQ. The spl was there but SQ was poor. I never got to listen to the third version but wouldnt even bother since I have the first and very happy with them.

If I was to replace those, I might go with the Ultimo SC or a Fi X or even a W6V2. Am looking to get a single 10 or 8 that wont take much space and put out some good SQ. Not looking for spl or thousands of watts, as I will only feed it a good 500watts or less.


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## quality_sound

Do you have an RTA? I'd love to see what the curves of the 3 subs are in-car and out-of-car.


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## oldskewl

quality_sound said:


> Do you have an RTA? I'd love to see what the curves of the 3 subs are in-car and out-of-car.


No, I really, really wish I did.  

Got a loaner for me? I will pay shipping both ways!


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## rexroadj

TrickyRicky said:


> Since when was Phonix Gold a hi-end brand for them to try to retail a sub over 800.00?? I know the old school PG was top notch, but the new stuff is pretty much crap and by looking at that sub am proven right. Sorry guys but thats just my opinion.
> 
> And am sure you can find them for less than 300 brand new.


You have no clue what your talking about (sorry, didnt realize someone already explained the value of it). This is not a new sub. Its from almost 10yrs ago! The original titanium series and is one of the best sq subs ever produced. Anyone that has ever spent time with one knows exactly what it can do (nothing it can't do really?) They were very expensive and shops didn't exactly keep them in stock because of it so they didn't get a ton of exposure. That and the insane amount of depth! 

What was said earlier is absolutely true....bigger box for the TI will do wonders. The JL in that boxy is going to lend itself to the booty side (gotta member the market for that setup in a shop a smaller box (although just slightly) will fix some of the complaints. They are great sub as well!
the ultimo's are nice but never "wowed" me?


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## rexroadj

TrickyRicky said:


> The newer version suck, well besides the PRO. I tried the second version and was very dissapointed with SQ. The spl was there but SQ was poor. I never got to listen to the third version but wouldnt even bother since I have the first and very happy with them.
> 
> If I was to replace those, I might go with the Ultimo SC or a Fi X or even a W6V2. Am looking to get a single 10 or 8 that wont take much space and put out some good SQ. Not looking for spl or thousands of watts, as I will only feed it a good 500watts or less.


Just curious.....how did you run the pro? I have never heard someone that preferred the original over the pro? Not saying its not subjective just curious about how you ran it? The pro is one of my favs if I can fit it, afford power, and the sub itself as well
I do love the originals too. I also found the vmax really good for the $ as wells so I may be out in left field? Wouldn't be the first time


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## oldskewl

UPDATE!

Just put another hour into dialing in the PG and it sounds absolutely amazing! To the point that I checked my card to see if the dealer had charged me for the Morel yet, yes he did. If not, I was going to cancel and say thats it! This is what I have been looking for in a sub! 

This is an extremely musical sub yet is able to hit the low notes with authority. It links up with my comps WONDERFULLY, sooooo much more so than the Jl, it was really no contest. I cant imagine the Morel is going to be any better than the Ti, I just dont see how it could. The Ti has that nearly magical quality of disappearing yet you always know its there, god damn it I love this sub! 

The Phoenix Gold Ti12d elite is more than likely the best sub I have ever owned.

I am still going to shoot out the Morel (I think), I just dont see where there is room for improvement over the PG. If I keep the PG I will pick up a 1.5-1.7 enclosure, I think there is room for improvement with the larger box.

FYI I put the Jl up for sale in the classified section today, hope to get some bites. There may be a brand new, in the box Morel Ultimo SC12 following it next week. I just havent decided if testing it is worth the depreciation. On the other hand, damn, its right here in my face!!!! LOL


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## FartinInTheTub

Glad you like the Ti. I've always liked it. It's leaps and bounds above the entry level Ti. I know what you're saying about the Ultimo. The Ti is definately going to have more output but I think you'll be surprised at it's ability to integrate and hit those low notes. The choice is yours... The depreciation from simply testing the sub for a few hours will be very low.


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## oldskewl

FartinInTheTub said:


> Glad you like the Ti. I've always liked it. It's leaps and bounds above the entry level Ti. I know what you're saying about the Ultimo. The Ti is definately going to have more output but I think you'll be surprised at it's ability to integrate and hit those low notes. The choice is yours... The depreciation from simply testing the sub for a few hours will be very low.


I have to agree with you about the depreciation, I FOR SURE am going to test it, how often does a person have a chance to have three subs like this at the same time? Im taking advantage of the situation, Im auditioning them all and keeping the one I like! :thumbsup:


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## Viejo Y Lento

oldskewl
That Ti12d really sux. I think you should box it up and send it to me to go with my sucky Ti Elite 951 an Ti Elite 6 components. :laugh::laugh:


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## oldskewl

Viejo Y Lento said:


> oldskewl
> That Ti12d really sux. I think you should box it up and send it to me to go with my sucky Ti Elite 951 an Ti Elite 6 components. :laugh::laugh:


LMAO!


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## TrickyRicky

rexroadj said:


> Just curious.....how did you run the pro? I have never heard someone that preferred the original over the pro? Not saying its not subjective just curious about how you ran it? The pro is one of my favs if I can fit it, afford power, and the sub itself as well
> I do love the originals too. I also found the vmax really good for the $ as wells so I may be out in left field? Wouldn't be the first time


I didnt say the original stroker was better than the Pro. I said the Pro is the better than all of the newer ones. I only hear the Pro but never owned it. I had a chance to buy two but I slept on the auction and ended 250.00 for two Pro's.

Like I said before I didnt know **** about the PG, I guess you didnt read my earlier post.


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## oldskewl

Couldnt resist, I ordered a 1.44 box today. Gotta give the Morel its best chance!


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## rexroadj

TrickyRicky said:


> I didnt say the original stroker was better than the Pro. I said the Pro is the better than all of the newer ones. I only hear the Pro but never owned it. I had a chance to buy two but I slept on the auction and ended 250.00 for two Pro's.
> 
> Like I said before I didnt know **** about the PG, I guess you didnt read my earlier post.


Actually I did read your earlier posts.....thats why I edited it!!!!!! read between the ( ). Its just painful to read things that are so negative when they say they dont know anything about it? Why bother saying anything? Thats the stuff thats just not needed and very dangerous to those that are on here seeking knowledge. Now, dont take this to heart, I have read countless posts of yours and its not like you dont know what your talking about. 99% of the time you provide great insight! I hope you dont take offense to what I wrote, I was just adding some insight to the history of the woofer. 

WOW 2 Pro's for $250!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats insane!!!!!!!!!!! I miss read what you wrote about the pro vs orig. Not that the latter could not be preffered of course.... The regular stroker (from the same lineup with the pro) I found ok, but extremely box specifiic and required a great deal of break in time. Still not something I would want in every situation.... If you wanted to rumble your kidneys they could do it though 
I have not heard the newer strokers though? Or anything new from CV for that matter with the exception of the pro audio line (local shop brought them in for a specific market that is looking for loud and nasty sounding stuff) THEY WERE HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I cant believe people want that in the car! 
Again, I did edit the post (it says sorry, didnt realize someone already explained the value of it!) I did it on my phone earlier in the day and didnt realize that there was more to the thread until I looked at it later (thought my post was deleted till I saw it way down the line). I am sorry if it came across that bad, certainly didnt mean to offend you in the manner it was taken. I do think some more research should be done before words that negative are said about something in the future?


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## TrickyRicky

I didnt take anything personally, and I understand the whole dont throw your opinion if you've never tried it concept. I just couldnt resist on how ugly the PG looks, it looks cheaply made, but then again I've never seen it in person. I also thought it was a newer model from the crappy stuff PG now makes.

No hard feelings, I hope you dont take it personally either. Thanks.


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## bassfromspace

In your testing, you've only measured the quality of your install, not actual sub capabilities (which may or not be a goood thing). You have, however, exposed your lack of midbass.

Try listening to your system with only the subwoofer on and tell us what differences you notice between the subs.


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## TrickyRicky

bassfromspace said:


> In your testing, you've only measured the quality of your install, not actual sub capabilities (which may or not be a goood thing). You have, however, exposed your lack of midbass.
> 
> Try listening to your system with only the subwoofer on and tell us what differences you notice between the subs.


Thats pretty much the only way to actually see/hear if there are any differences. Just the sub on everything else off, ofcourse after that you can turn on the rest of the system and hear how it blends in.


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## oldskewl

TrickyRicky said:


> Thats pretty much the only way to actually see/hear if there are any differences. Just the sub on everything else off, ofcourse after that you can turn on the rest of the system and hear how it blends in.


There was a MASSIVE difference between the Jl and the PG and I didnt have to turn off my front end to hear it. 

I prefer to do my tuning with ALL my drivers being driven.


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## oldskewl

UPDATE!

Sold the Jl! Gave a guy a fair deal, $375. He had to drive 1 1/2 hours each way to get it so I gave him a good price. 

Anyway, I did slip the Jl in so the guy could audition it, and I tell you what, the way that sub moves air will be missed by me. No, its not as accurate as say the PG or I am sure the Morel, but if you want to feel the electricity in the air that JL humps.

Moving on, I have the PG for sale on fleabay, enclosure and all. Reasoning? Well, the sub sounds AWESOME, however, like most 1000 watt RMS and up subs, it really needs some power to make it sound alive. That means running my volume higher than I normally would and I dont like that. At easy listening levels there just isnt much going on with the PG. Smooth yes. Punchy no. Turn up the volume to 3/4 though and DAMN! The PG comes alive and is amazing. After a week with the PG my ears are ringing so it must go.

I am counting on the Ultimo SC to be everything it is said to be.

I figure being a 600 watt driver the SC will be more responsive at lower listening volumes when compared to the PG or JL.


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## oldskewl

bassfromspace said:


> In your testing, you've only measured the quality of your install, not actual sub capabilities (which may or not be a goood thing). You have, however, exposed your lack of midbass.
> 
> Try listening to your system with only the subwoofer on and tell us what differences you notice between the subs.


Ummm, no, I tested how two different subs performed in my install. Yes, I am lacking potent mid-bass, just like with most other two way front ends. I am searching for the subwoofer that covers this flaw most effectively.


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## FartinInTheTub

oldskewl said:


> Ummm, no, I tested how two different subs performed in my install. Yes, I am lacking potent mid-bass, just like with most other two way front ends. I am searching for the subwoofer that covers this flaw most effectively.


I tell ya man... I switched out my mids to some Dynaudio MW160s... eq'd the frontstage and damn! much more midbass! Now I have to turn the morel to zero on my head unit. That sub has EXCELLENT output and hits very low. I have to say this is absolutely the best subwoofer I have ever owned. I really can't see how anyone would not like it. Every beat is so fast and responsive! I was playing the Focal #8 CD yesterday (track 4) and man... that thing dug deep. I'm a happy fanboy lol. epper:

PS... I noticed that you keep ordering prefab boxes... That sub deserves a custom built enclosure. It'll be worth it.


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## TrickyRicky

FartinInTheTub said:


> I tell ya man... I switched out my mids to some Dynaudio MW160s... eq'd the frontstage and damn! much more midbass! Now I have to turn the morel to zero on my head unit. That sub has EXCELLENT output and hits very low. I have to say this is absolutely the best subwoofer I have ever owned. I really can't see how anyone would not like it. Every beat is so fast and responsive! I was playing the F*ocal #8 CD yesterday (track 4)* and man... that thing dug deep. I'm a happy fanboy lol. epper:
> 
> PS... I noticed that you keep ordering prefab boxes... That sub deserves a *custom built enclosure*. It'll be worth it.


I like 3,4,5 and 11 on that CD. The JL was on its own box from factory, but I agree the Ultimo and the PG should have their own custom enclosure. If you liked the midbass on #3, try track 11.


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## Mteks

Sorry to hear you are letting the Ti go, it's one of the first subs I ever heard that actually made me concerned standing too close to it while in action. I still remember it form 8-9 yrs ago. I am sure there are new subs that can out perform, but one thing is for sure that is a monster that pounds.


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## FartinInTheTub

TrickyRicky said:


> I like 3,4,5 and 11 on that CD. The JL was on its own box from factory, but I agree the Ultimo and the PG should have their own custom enclosure. If you liked the midbass on #3, try track 11.


Yes! Track 11 does rock! I was rocking that one really loud yesterday while driving down I-5. I turned my sub off just to feel my pants move from the midbass. I really like Focal #8... It's my favorite of the Focal CDs.


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## oldskewl

Still waiting for the Morel... stupid holiday!!


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## bertholomey

Sub'd for outcome.


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## oldskewl

UPDATE!

Well the Morel has arrived. First impressions: Underbuilt. Cheap. Small. Lightweight. When set beside the 12w7 or the Ti12d there is no comparison, the Ultimo SC looks like a POS. I havent had a sub that looks this cheap in my car for at least 15 years. 

The Morel feels like a frisbie when compared to the w7 or Ti12d, lets hope it sounds better than it looks. By a mile. 

I have a bad RCA in my car so will not be doing any testing until Thursday evening, will give you an update then. 

I am seriously disappointed with the build quality on the SC.


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## thehatedguy

It looks like an oversized Morel MW series midbass.


----------



## Viggen

To me that's the look of SQ

The huge magnets & all that is more SPL.... 

Looking forward to your review, I was planning on buying a Ultimo in the next week or two. I was thinking maybe I should send you my old IDQ12 to compare how that sounds......


----------



## FartinInTheTub

Viggen said:


> To me that's the look of SQ
> 
> The huge magnets & all that is more SPL....
> 
> Looking forward to your review, I was planning on buying a Ultimo in the next week or two. I was thinking maybe I should send you my old IDQ12 to compare how that sounds......


I agree. SQ subs are usually dwarfed my SPL monsters. I feel that the Morel is built well. Ever hold a idqv2 in your hand? How about a Stereo Integrity MKlll? The Morel is built ALOT better than even the IDQv3. The baskets crack all the time on the v3 due to fragile material used for the basket. I think you'll like the sound of the Morel... update us when ya can.


----------



## chithead

Agreed. I've had a W7, IDMAX, W10Gti, and felt the Morel is extremely well built. A lot of attention to detail and good quality parts used for the construction.


----------



## oldskewl

UPDATE!

Taking the afternoon off just to get my install done! I purchased a new RCA, I have the Morel mounted and I am about to tackle the install. Look for another update with first impressions later this afternoon!


----------



## oldskewl

UPDATE!!

The Morel and new RCA are in! WOW! HOLY F***! 

After an hour of demo time here are my thoughts:

The Morel is phenomenal! Extremely musical. Very transparent. You can almost see the fingers on the bass string with the Ultimo SC. This sub will get decently loud however its forte is SQ. It digs deep yet never over powers the rest of the system like the Jl or Ti12d. 

I absolutely love this subwoofer and am glad I went down this road.


----------



## madmaxz

what size box is the ultimo in? sorry if i missed it.


----------



## chithead

Interesting review... I almost expected you to prefer the W7 based on the first two reviews, but intruiging that you like the Morel. I absolutely love the one in my truck, never thought I would be completely satisfied without that "eyeball rattling" bass.


----------



## Viggen

LOL..... & to think you just stated it's build quality wasn't good & wondered how it could improve on the PG Ti sub.... 

thanks for the writeup & spending your money testing out a few subs for us...... however I was hopeing you didn't like it......now it's another reason I must get one.


----------



## madmaxz

^ LOL im already looking for the best price..


----------



## FartinInTheTub

Told ya so.


----------



## oldskewl

madmaxz said:


> ^ LOL im already looking for the best price..


Got mine for $375 to the door from an authorized dealer, let me know if you need the hookup...


----------



## FartinInTheTub

oldskewl said:


> Got mine for $375 to the door from an authorized dealer, let me know if you need the hookup...


VERY good price. I paid $300 used.


----------



## oldskewl

chithead said:


> Interesting review... I almost expected you to prefer the W7 based on the first two reviews, but intruiging that you like the Morel. I absolutely love the one in my truck, never thought I would be completely satisfied without that "eyeball rattling" bass.


I have no doubt there will be times when I miss that "electric" bass from the Jl, however I feel the accuracy of the Morel is more than a fair trade off. 

Hmmmm, a 12w7 and an Ultimo SC in the trunk with a servo controlled A/B switch? :guitarist:


----------



## oldskewl

madmaxz said:


> what size box is the ultimo in? sorry if i missed it.


1.44 cubic feet, 3/4" MDF sealed with no fill.


----------



## chithead

1.44 cu.ft. sealed... Hmmm... going to have to rethink my enclosure size.


----------



## oldskewl

chithead said:


> 1.44 cu.ft. sealed... Hmmm... going to have to rethink my enclosure size.


What are you running your SC in? Initial thought was maybe, just maybe a hair smaller enclosure would be better for the SC, say 1.3-1.35?


----------



## Viggen

Send DAT a PM, he can hook you up. I believe there are others on this site who are also authorized... I just can't remember their name. DAT is who I have chatted with a few times about these subs. My only hangup was what amp..... thinking my 300w Adcom wasn't enough. He carries Sinfoni & a few others but I think I am going the JL HD or Alpine PDX route mostly due to size reasons. It's just 600w, 750w, 1000w, 1200w etc??

Can you buy a few different amps to try out for us as well 

O yea.... most stuff I read 1.5-2 cu ft is what the 12 needs, I think some prefer closer to 2cu ft


----------



## oldskewl

Viggen said:


> To me that's the look of SQ
> 
> The huge magnets & all that is more SPL....
> 
> Looking forward to your review, I was planning on buying a Ultimo in the next week or two. I was thinking maybe I should send you my old IDQ12 to compare how that sounds......


Go for it!


----------



## oldskewl

Viggen said:


> Send DAT a PM, he can hook you up. I believe there are others on this site who are also authorized... I just can't remember their name. DAT is who I have chatted with a few times about these subs. My only hangup was what amp..... thinking my 300w Adcom wasn't enough. He carries Sinfoni & a few others but I think I am going the JL HD or Alpine PDX route mostly due to size reasons. It's just 600w, 750w, 1000w, 1200w etc??
> 
> Can you buy a few different amps to try out for us as well
> 
> O yea.... most stuff I read 1.5-2 cu ft is what the 12 needs, I think some prefer closer to 2cu ft


I tried DAT, great guy and service he was just having problems with his Morel hookup. 

Yes, you will be short on power by quite a bit if you only use 300 watts. Judging how my SC reacts with 1100w+ RMS of class A/B power I would say a person would be fine with 700-800 watts RMS. I hear it smear a touch on high output bass lines with too much power on it, back it off a touch and it clears right up. I am sure it could handle 800 RMS all day long with no issues.

HA! Buy a few amps, Ive been down that road and I am a firm believer in the Phoenix Gold ZPA line. I will NEVER get rid of mine (I purchased it new 8 years ago), 300 watts RMS x 2 or 1000+ watts RMS bridged into a 4/2/1 ohm load, yummy! It is a well of power that never seems to have a limit. (The only sub that could handle that much power all the while asking for more was the Ti12d Elite!).

I would love to have a pair of ZPA's on my front end but my car just doesnt have the current.

About enclosure size, I think your recommendations are for the Ultimo and not the Ultimo SC, although it wouldnt be the first time I was mistaken!


----------



## oldskewl

UPDATE!

Its time for the final rankings!

3rd Place: Phoenix Gold Ti12d Elite. 

Yep, my "best sounding sub ever" finishes a close third in this powerhouse group. The PG is an outstanding subwoofer, truly a top flight unit that sounds excellent. It is a great blend; deep, tight and fat all at the same time. The problem with the PG is that it needs so much power, it ran my ZPA 0.5 right into the ground. This is the only sub that has pushed my ZPA to the limit, laughed it off and then asked for more! Straight up, this sub needs power! I believe it would be happy with 2000w RMS or more! The only drawback to this is that at lower listening levels the 12d just doesnt do much, you have to feed it power to make it work. No movement, no air, no impact. This is why I had to place this excellent subwoofer in 3rd place, in the real world not many people will be able to utilize it to its potential.

2nd Place: Jl12w7 Prowedge

The Jl is a wonderful subwoofer. It hits low, gets loud and really moves some air, you can feel the tingle! I have to think the w7 fell short in this comparison do to the fact it was in a large-ish Prowedge enclosure. If I had purchased this sub in a smaller enclosure I may never have had a reason to look for another sub, its that good. The problem is that the Prowedge allowed the Jl to be a touch boomy. Maybe I should have removed the sub and glued a block of wood inside the box, too late now! Overall I really like this sub, especially in a SQL application. I cant help but wonder what a pair of 10w7's in a small sealed enclosure would sound like...

1st Place: Morel Ultimo SC 12

Believe the hype, the Ultimo SC is the real deal! It is extremely musical, it paints an image so well, you can see and feel each note on the bass guitar. I now hear notes on bass lines I had never realized were there, they were smeared by the other subs reviewed. The Morel gets low, has solid impact and is everything it is said to be. It disappears into your soundstage yet hits with authority when the music asks it to. It has been said elsewhere and it is true, the Ultimo is very quick, there is no overhang from any notes whatsoever. Output is not on par with the Ti or Jl, however the trade off of accuaracy is more than worth it. If you need more output, buy two or step up to the plate and pick up the full on Ultimo (1000 watts RMS min needed). FYI the SC has a problem handling power past 900w RMS or so, it is well suited for 700-800 watts RMS (A/B power).


Winner: Morel Ultimo SC



PS Anybody have a RTA I can borrow for a few days? I would be glad to pay shipping both ways!


----------



## thehatedguy

Could be the low inductance?


----------



## oldskewl

thehatedguy said:


> Could be the low inductance?


?? Please elaborate...


----------



## thehatedguy

The 4 ohm SC is like .85 mH and the 2 ohm is .27 mH, which is on the low side of things for car audio. Low inductance means the driver can naturally play higher- inductance is a passive low pass XO.

The inductance is lowish but so is the throw...a large VS with a short winding, very pro audio style. 

Some people believe that low inductance makes for easier blending. Whereas others just see it as a built in passive filter.


----------



## oldskewl

thehatedguy said:


> The 4 ohm SC is like .85 mH and the 2 ohm is .27 mH, which is on the low side of things for car audio. Low inductance means the driver can naturally play higher- inductance is a passive low pass XO.
> 
> The inductance is lowish but so is the throw...a large VS with a short winding, very pro audio style.
> 
> Some people believe that low inductance makes for easier blending. Whereas others just see it as a built in passive filter.


Thank you for the education!


----------



## DAT

I agree the Morel SC subs are excellent you don't need a regular series Morel. 

I only do Local sales for Morel, now if you have someone visiting KY let me know I can take care of you.


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## oldskewl

UPDATE!

On a whim I put the SC in a 1.21 enclosure. The result is a much more controlled subwoofer that can now suck up waaaaaay more power than when it was in the 1.44. Output is down, however the overall experience with the smaller box was much better. The smaller enclosure gets rid of the last little bit of "basketball" sound from the sub, it is now truly amazing. My long term plans include a second SC, I think two SC's in a 1.1 or so each enclosure would sound phenom!


----------



## oldskewl

Going for perfection... pulling out the SC to add some polyfill, stay tuned for results!


----------



## quality_sound

You should have tried the JL in a LARGER enclosure, not a smaller one. JL's recommended enclosures are usually daily driver oriented with larger enclosures needed for an SQ alignment. Also, smaller enclosures make subs boomier, not larger ones. I still wish I had the room and didn't mind the weight of the JL. I'd run it in a heartbeat. I still can't get over what a pair of Gothams will do in a living room.


----------



## oldskewl

quality_sound said:


> You should have tried the JL in a LARGER enclosure, not a smaller one. JL's recommended enclosures are usually daily driver oriented with larger enclosures needed for an SQ alignment. Also, smaller enclosures make subs boomier, not larger ones. I still wish I had the room and didn't mind the weight of the JL. I'd run it in a heartbeat. I still can't get over what a pair of Gothams will do in a living room.


It depends which side of the bell curve you are on. IMHO too big and you lose power handling and a flat frequency response. Too small you lose low end extension along with output. 

Its like Goldilocks and the Three Bears, you gotta have that just right porridge LMAO!


----------



## FartinInTheTub

I'm running mine in a 1.2 cuft enclosure with a 1b of polyfill. Very controlled and will still go deep when needed.


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## chithead

I am waiting to see what size enclosure to build


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## oldskewl

chithead said:


> I am waiting to see what size enclosure to build


If you are building one yourself I would highly recommend 1.30. If you want to save a bunch of time and hassle buy the 1.21 prefab (3/4" MDF, seams cauked, carpeted), add a half pound or so of polyfil and enjoy!

My 1.21 with 1/3 lb of poly sounds absolutely wonderful! I much prefer it over the 1.44 with no poly. Hope you got some power for that puppy, it loves my 1100w RMS ZPA!


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## chithead

That's funny, I've been feeding it 500 watts off my Zapco 1000.4 and it's been quite pleasurable 

But I am using it in a regular cab truck also.


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## TrickyRicky

Does anybody even use the "golden ratio" anymore when building seal enclosures?


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## subwoofery

oldskewl said:


> It depends which side of the bell curve you are on. IMHO too big and you lose power handling and a flat frequency response. Too small you lose low end extension along with output.
> 
> Its like Goldilocks and the Three Bears, you gotta have that just right porridge LMAO!


Just so you know... Bigger enclosures gets a flatter freq response than too small ones... Too small and the sub is peaky especially due to cabin gain. Around 45Hz will have a natural boost which can make your substage much more difficult to integrate with your front stage... 

I'd rather have too much low end and EQ it down than too small and either boost the low end or remove the HUGE peak around 45Hz... 

My 0.2 cents 

Kelvin 

PS: too small has more output too... the smaller enclosure controls excursion much better and we are more sensitive to 40Hz+ than below 40Hz


----------



## DAT

subwoofery said:


> Just so you know... Bigger enclosures gets a flatter freq response than too small ones... Too small and the sub is peaky especially due to cabin gain. Around 45Hz will have a natural boost which can make your substage much more difficult to integrate with your front stage...
> 
> I'd rather have too much low end and EQ it down than too small and either boost the low end or remove the HUGE peak around 45Hz...
> 
> My 0.2 cents
> 
> Kelvin
> 
> PS: too small has more output too... the smaller enclosure controls excursion much better and we are more sensitive to 40Hz+ than below 40Hz




x2, i like to get a tad bigger and then do my EQ


----------



## quality_sound

oldskewl said:


> It depends which side of the bell curve you are on. IMHO too big and you lose power handling and a flat frequency response. Too small you lose low end extension along with output.
> 
> Its like Goldilocks and the Three Bears, you gotta have that just right porridge LMAO!


Sort of. If you go too big you lose control and output but if you go to small you create a peak in the response. That's the boominess. I agree it has to be right but if it really was boomy, the box was too small.


----------



## oldskewl

quality_sound said:


> Sort of. If you go too big you lose control and output but if you go to small you create a peak in the response. That's the boominess. I agree it has to be right but if it really was boomy, the box was too small.


You are right and wrong all at the same time. 

If a box is too big to begin with (as was the Prowedge) going larger isnt going to help. With your logic the best box would be no box. Now that wouldnt make much sense. 

If your box is too small to begin with then your logic works. If it is too large already then it doesnt. When a box gets too big it loses its flatness, gets boomy (basketball type sound) and loses control.


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## thehatedguy

No it doesn't.

A larger box would reduce peakiness and gain flatness.


----------



## oldskewl

thehatedguy said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> A larger box would reduce peakiness and gain flatness.


To a point it does. Once you go too large and "drop off the cliff" you lose control power handling. And flatness.


----------



## quality_sound

No. Once you hit a certain volume nothing changes at all. As said above it will get mote and more flat until it stabilizes. And the prowedge was NOT too big to begin with. I promise you that.


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## oldskewl

quality_sound said:


> No. Once you hit a certain volume nothing changes at all. As said above it will get mote and more flat until it stabilizes. And the prowedge was NOT too big to begin with. I promise you that.


I disagree. If that were the case no box would be best.

A box can be too big. Doesnt take a brain surgeon or rocket scientist to see that...


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## thehatedguy

If a box gets too large it has a shallower roll off. If a box gets too small it has a faster roll off and a bump in the FR.

You do loose power handling by getting larger and larger, but never flatness.


----------



## thehatedguy

I take it you haven't built many speaker enclosures, used any modeling software or read anything about enclosures.


----------



## thehatedguy

JL's Prowedge for the 12W7 is roughly 2.4-2.5 cubic feet internal. Sealed with a Q of .707 is roughly 2.3 cubes. Take driver displacement into consideration, and you would be really close to a sealed enclosure with a Q of .707 and a F3 of 40 hertz. Which is NOT by any means too small.


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## oldskewl

thehatedguy said:


> If a box gets too large it has a shallower roll off. If a box gets too small it has a faster roll off and a bump in the FR.
> 
> You do loose power handling by getting larger and larger, but never flatness.



Agreed with first statement. Agree partially with the second. At what point does the loss of power handling turn into sloppiness? AKA BOOM! AKA Overhang! 

Do you get it? Do you know what I am saying? Lack of woofer control=sloppiness, boom and overhang, aka ****ty sound.


----------



## thehatedguy

The 4 ohm Ultimo SC 12 for an enclosure of a Q of .7 would want 1.35 cubes gross or 1.25 cubes net. It would have a F3 of 49 hertz.

1.1 cubes net would get you a Q of .735 and F3 of 52 hertz.

You would have to get around 2.5 cubes net for the Morel before you saw a large decrease in the Q of the enclosure. And about .7 cubes to see the Q to start to move towards .9.


----------



## oldskewl

thehatedguy said:


> I take it you haven't built many speaker enclosures, used any modeling software or read anything about enclosures.


You know nothing of my box building and industry resume to be speaking so brash...


----------



## oldskewl

thehatedguy said:


> JL's Prowedge for the 12W7 is roughly 2.4-2.5 cubic feet internal. Sealed with a Q of .707 is roughly 2.3 cubes. Take driver displacement into consideration, and you would be really close to a sealed enclosure with a Q of .707 and a F3 of 40 hertz. Which is NOT by any means too small.


Agreed. I have said it needed a smaller enclosure from the start. It is a relatively sloppy sounding woofer in the prowedge enclosure.


----------



## thehatedguy

I know what you are trying to say, but what you believe and what is really happening are two different things.



oldskewl said:


> Agreed with first statement. Agree partially with the second. At what point does the loss of power handling turn into sloppiness? AKA BOOM! AKA Overhang!
> 
> Do you get it? Do you know what I am saying? Lack of woofer control=sloppiness, boom and overhang, aka ****ty sound.


----------



## oldskewl

thehatedguy said:


> The 4 ohm Ultimo SC 12 for an enclosure of a Q of .7 would want 1.35 cubes gross or 1.25 cubes net. It would have a F3 of 49 hertz.
> 
> 1.1 cubes net would get you a Q of .735 and F3 of 52 hertz.
> 
> You would have to get around 2.5 cubes net for the Morel before you saw a large decrease in the Q of the enclosure. And about .7 cubes to see the Q to start to move towards .9.


TY for the info


----------



## thehatedguy

Smaller would make the Q increase, F3 go up, create a ripple in the response, but increase powerhandling.

Which is the exact opposite of what you are describing that you want.




oldskewl said:


> Agreed. I have said it needed a smaller enclosure from the start. It is a relatively sloppy sounding woofer in the prowedge enclosure.


----------



## oldskewl

thehatedguy said:


> I know what you are trying to say, but what you believe and what is really happening are two different things.


So what you are trying to get across to me is that the box would have to be extremely large before it would have an adverse effect on power handling and woofer control?


----------



## thehatedguy

Right.

The lower the Q of the enclosure the LESS overhang you would generally have, but it could come across as lean sounding. Lower Q like .5-.6 has better transient response and a shallower roll off.

A higher Q would have a sharper roll off, you would get better power handling, but a bump in the FR which could come across as warm or bloomy sounding like say a Q of .9-1 range. The bloom might think there was actually MORE bass there than actually was there. But you will give up transient response and actual low end to get it.


----------



## SSSnake

> You know nothing of my box building and industry resume to be speaking so brash...


Not trying to be an ass but he is spot on with everything he has told you. This would cause one to think that:



> you haven't built many speaker enclosures, used any modeling software or read anything about enclosures


----------



## subwoofery

oldskewl said:


> You are right and wrong all at the same time.
> 
> If a box is too big to begin with (as was the Prowedge) going larger isnt going to help. *With your logic the best box would be no box.* Now that wouldnt make much sense.
> 
> If your box is too small to begin with then your logic works. If it is too large already then it doesnt. When a box gets too big it loses its flatness, gets boomy (basketball type sound) and loses control.





oldskewl said:


> I disagree. *If that were the case no box would be best.*
> 
> A box can be too big. Doesnt take a brain surgeon or rocket scientist to see that...


Have you ever heard an IB setup (trunk is the enclosure)? I can promiss you it will have much less overhang than your too small of a box. 

What you're trying to achive is a bump in the response... It seems like you need to feel the subwoofer (or hear it). Totally acceptable however by going smaller and smaller, you're losing some low end (20Hz for example) and it won't sound sound flat to the ear... 

Kelvin


----------



## DAT

IMHO -

I totally agree with Jason ( Hatedguy ) and Kelvin. They are spot on....


----------



## rexroadj

oldskewl said:


> You know nothing of my box building and industry resume to be speaking so brash...


Says the guy that is buying prefab boxes 

Listen and learn from these guys! They are offering you some excellent knowledge.....that is what this forum is about after all! 

You can agree with them............ or be wrong!

(fyi, I dont think he meant the statement the way you took it either)


----------



## DAT

rexroadj said:


> Says the guy that is buying prefab boxes
> 
> Listen and learn from these guys! They are offering you some excellent knowledge.....that is what this forum is about after all!
> 
> You can agree with them............ or be wrong!
> 
> (fyi, I dont think he meant the statement the way you took it either)




The only pre fab boxes I like or worth a **** are the ATREND. i sell quite a few and love the Rhino lined box for ruggedness 


*Who We Are*


----------



## oldskewl

rexroadj said:


> Says the guy that is buying prefab boxes
> 
> Listen and learn from these guys! They are offering you some excellent knowledge.....that is what this forum is about after all!
> 
> You can agree with them............ or be wrong!
> 
> (fyi, I dont think he meant the statement the way you took it either)


Hey d-bag, read the entire thread before you post. I got where he was coming from a page ago, you just decided it would be easier to flame away rather than read the entire thread.

And just what is wrong with a prefab in this application? Just what does a person gain by using his own 3/4" mdf built to the same specs? NOTHING. Not with this small sub. Maybe on the Ti12d but certainly not for the lightweight Morel. I have built 50+ enclosures in my life, there is not a thing wrong with using a properly built prefab. 

And to all you people that are jumping on my back without actually reading EVERY POST go to hell. I worked my ass off to share with everybody my thoughts on these three subs and then you blast me like I am a loser. I got what he was trying to communicate, you just didnt bother to read this thread completely.

Dont worry, I wont be contributing again like this anytime soon.


----------



## thehatedguy

Ha, I never paid any attention to the prefab box thing. But if one works for you, it's probably cheaper than building one these days- materials and time invested (unless you are a box building stud like my former employeer was who could build a basic sealed box with angled face in about 20 minutes wrapped in the carpet of your choice- he had built literally thousands of boxes in his 15 years doing car audio). Just trying to 'plain why couple things were how they were.


----------



## oldskewl

thehatedguy said:


> Ha, I never paid any attention to the prefab box thing. But if one works for you, it's probably cheaper than building one these days- materials and time invested (unless you are a box building stud like my former employeer was who could build a basic sealed box with angled face in about 20 minutes wrapped in the carpet of your choice- he had built literally thousands of boxes in his 15 years doing car audio). Just trying to 'plain why couple things were how they were.


Yep, and I appreciate it. We had this ironed out about 8 posts ago but people just keep piling on without reading the thread completely.

As far as prefabs, ya, even four or five years ago they were pretty weak. However times have changed, if the size suits your need they work extremely well. Honestly, a person would be hard pressed to build a better one themselves.


----------



## rexroadj

oldskewl said:


> Hey d-bag, read the entire thread before you post. I got where he was coming from a page ago, you just decided it would be easier to flame away rather than read the entire thread.
> 
> And just what is wrong with a prefab in this application? Just what does a person gain by using his own 3/4" mdf built to the same specs? NOTHING. Not with this small sub. Maybe on the Ti12d but certainly not for the lightweight Morel. I have built 50+ enclosures in my life, there is not a thing wrong with using a properly built prefab.
> 
> And to all you people that are jumping on my back without actually reading EVERY POST go to hell. I worked my ass off to share with everybody my thoughts on these three subs and then you blast me like I am a loser. I got what he was trying to communicate, you just didnt bother to read this thread completely.
> 
> Dont worry, I wont be contributing again like this anytime soon.



WOW little sensitive? I'm the d-bag? You clearly took that wrong too! YES I read every page. You said his comment was brash (which I dont think anyone else took it that way at all....again sensitive?) IT appeared that you were fighting (not literally) some of the advice that was given to you by several on here that ABSOLUTELY know what they are talking about. I, like others, (who also read all of it!) were just simply saying that the advice and info given above was extremely accurate! You can do with it what you want! NO ONE BLASTED YOU! An No one called you a loser nor implied it! Perhaps you just have a guilty conscience? 
I think what can be gained by this is that with the proper implimentation/tuning, etc.. all 3 of the subs can produce the same results (some can add more output then others) as long as you know how to impliment them (BEFORE YOU OVER REACT AGAIN, I am not saying that you do not!)

So you can continue to freak out about every damn post people make on here!!!! WOW! 

(ps. the reason why I mentioned the prefab thing (since you clearly didnt get the relation of the comment!) is because someone mentioned that it appeared that you were not familiar with box building or programing based on the "fighting" of the info given and then you say that it was "brash" to say and that and you had all this experience (not saying you dont....I could care less, it doesnt matter either way?) but seemed dependent on prefab boxes (never said there was anything wrong them them for the record!)....Just saying that with the fact that you seemed to originally fight off the info and that you were using prefab boxes lead me to wonder why you would say that the other comment was "brash".....that was the reason for my comment. If that makes me a "d-bag" then so be it, I wont say what it would make you!


----------



## oldskewl

Guess you missed this part eh? Looks to me like you have selective reading... 



oldskewl said:


> So what you are trying to get across to me is that the box would have to be extremely large before it would have an adverse effect on power handling and woofer control?





thehatedguy said:


> Right.
> 
> The lower the Q of the enclosure the LESS overhang you would generally have, but it could come across as lean sounding. Lower Q like .5-.6 has better transient response and a shallower roll off.
> 
> A higher Q would have a sharper roll off, you would get better power handling, but a bump in the FR which could come across as warm or bloomy sounding like say a Q of .9-1 range. The bloom might think there was actually MORE bass there than actually was there. But you will give up transient response and actual low end to get it.


----------



## rexroadj

Just enjoy your Ultimo  (or any other sub you choose to use)


----------



## FartinInTheTub

Fighting on the internet is like competing in the special olympics... No matter who wins you're both still retarded. :laugh:


----------



## oldskewl

FartinInTheTub said:


> Fighting on the internet is like competing in the special olympics... No matter who wins you're both still retarded. :laugh:


Fresh stuff there! lol


----------



## rexroadj

FartinInTheTub said:


> Fighting on the internet is like competing in the special olympics... No matter who wins you're both still retarded. :laugh:


Who's fighting?

However the special olympics joke is extremely inapropriate and insensitive
(I have spent a great deal of my time coaching said "retards"!)


----------



## FartinInTheTub

rexroadj said:


> Who's fighting?
> 
> However the special olympics joke is extremely inapropriate and insensitive


Lol... Sorry... didn't mean to offend you.  I just find it funny when people fight online. I've done it in the past and I feel like a putz about it. We're all here to learn from one another... It's amazing how fast threads get out of hand due to one person or another's ego and/or assumed knowledge.


----------



## subwoofery

FartinInTheTub said:


> Lol... Sorry... didn't mean to offend you.  I just find it funny when people fight online. I've done it in the past and I feel like a putz about it. We're all here to learn from one another... It's amazing how fast threads get out of hand due to one person or another's ego and/or *assumed knowledge*.


Exactly... 

Kelvin


----------



## oldskewl

subwoofery said:


> Exactly...
> 
> Kelvin


Exactly. You had no knowledge to contibute so why are you even leaving a post here?


----------



## rexroadj

FartinInTheTub said:


> Lol... Sorry... didn't mean to offend you.  I just find it funny when people fight online. I've done it in the past and I feel like a putz about it. We're all here to learn from one another... It's amazing how fast threads get out of hand due to one person or another's ego and/or assumed knowledge.


NO, I totally agree! I just get fed up with some of the dumb ass comments I read SO OFTEN NOW! (OP, this is NOT about you in any way shape or form, please do not take offense) I find myself getting pulled into them so frigging easy.... Guess I am just going to have to get away from here because to many people seem to be "ok" with it? 
I didnt get offended personally, I know there are some on here that have children and relatives that have disabilities and could see them taking offense. Figured I would nip it while I saw it Your good people, I know you meant nothing by it at all!


----------



## oldskewl

FYI I need reason and logic to back up a statement, when the logical explaination was provided I agreed with his point. Sorry, I just am not going to take something at face value without the reasoning to back it up. Which they did. End of discussion.


----------



## rexroadj

oldskewl said:


> Exactly. You had no knowledge to contibute so why are you even leaving a post here?


  wow!


----------



## subwoofery

oldskewl said:


> Exactly. You had no knowledge to contibute so why are you even leaving a post here?


You do know it's not my first post in your thread, right? 
Go back to post #84. I left some knowledge and my point of view... 
It seems to me that you chooose to discard what others have been telling you and rather believe what your ears tell you - that is fine by me but that doesn't make it *absolute truth*. My post came from the knowledge I earned in reading, practicing, simulating and hearing... 

Too small of a box WON'T achieve a flatter response - especially with cabin gain. Too small of a box will play 30Hz no problem but compared to 50Hz it'll be much much lower in loudness... that is what you could call "boxy" and/or "boomy" 

Not arguing for the sake of arguing... Just wanted to educate some folks that read though this thread - always have. You could try to do a search on the forum, there's plenty of knowledgeable people that left some great posts... 


Kelvin 

PS: FYI, when you decided to attack _rexroadj_, you did not even take the time to read through your thread - if you did, you would have seen that it wasn't his first post in your thread either... his first post was a week ago already


----------



## FartinInTheTub

On a lighter note... 

I was at my son's daycare earlier to pick him up... I ate some deviled eggs earlier in the day. Well umm... I accidentally farted next to a 2 year old and he yelled out "I tink he is potty!" and pointed at me! So f'n embarassing. So ends my dream of hooking up with the hot daycare chick. :mean:



ok well... back to the discussion.


----------



## chithead

Hot daycare chick FTW!!!

Stinkbritches in front of her though... FTL


----------



## rexroadj

FartinInTheTub said:


> On a lighter note...
> 
> I was at my son's daycare earlier to pick him up... I ate some deviled eggs earlier in the day. Well umm... I accidentally farted next to a 2 year old and he yelled out "I tink he is potty!" and pointed at me! So f'n embarassing. So ends my dream of hooking up with the hot daycare chick. :mean:
> 
> 
> 
> ok well... back to the discussion.


I just spit out my beer reading that!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry for the bad luck! But thank you for sharing....That was f'ing hysterical!!!! (laughing with not at


----------



## TrickyRicky

FartinInTheTub said:


> On a lighter note...
> 
> I was at my son's daycare earlier to pick him up... I ate some deviled eggs earlier in the day. Well umm... I accidentally farted next to a 2 year old and he yelled out "I tink he is potty!" and pointed at me! So f'n embarassing. So ends my dream of hooking up with the hot daycare chick. :mean:
> 
> 
> 
> ok well... back to the discussion.


Is that why you have that user name? :laugh:. My wife gets pissed when I fart around her (in the house). She actually wants me to go to the bathroom to fart (I dont think thats ever going to happen). I would of said "he who smelt it dealt it" to that little brat.


----------



## FartinInTheTub

Yeh... pretty embarassing stuff. The worst part was that it was one of the most disgusting farts I have ever smelt! The whole room full of kids ran to the other side of the room! It was like something out of Something about Mary. The daycare teacher laughed so hard that she tripped over a tricycle. There was no hiding that it was me! The little asian kid had no shame calling me out... lil fugger. :mean:

Anyhow... sorry to interupt the convo... :laugh:


----------



## kvndoom

FartinInTheTub said:


> It was like something out of Something about Mary. The daycare teacher laughed so hard that she tripped over a tricycle.


Believe it or not, you probably *increased* your chances of getting that ass. Women love guys who make them laugh. Just don't make it a habit of tooting around her. :laugh:


----------



## subwoofery

Good info here: 
subwoofer 
^ posted by another DIYer this week 

Kelvin


----------



## Niebur3

^Great Read!

But he forgot the part where it is "cool" to tell your friends you have 2500 watts on that sub! (i.e marketing). lol


----------



## oldskewl

UPDATE!

After a month in my vehicle the Morel is sounding better than ever! It is even quicker and more responsive now, it truly is an amazing subwoofer. It is even doing better with the 1000 watts RMS, I can push it extrememly hard before reaching break up. Frankly I dont see any reason a person would need the regular Ultimo, this SC kicks serious ass!!


----------



## FartinInTheTub

Glad you're enjoying the sub... I love mine.


----------



## 9mmmac

So you have proof of the "speaker break-in" controversy? Have you noticed this effect on any other speakers?


----------



## oldskewl

9mmmac said:


> So you have proof of the "speaker break-in" controversy? Have you noticed this effect on any other speakers?


Controversy? Didnt know there was one. I believe my ears, my Morel flat out sounds better than it did three weeks ago. Why? I would think because of break in but I am certainly open to other reasons...


----------



## TrickyRicky

Ears getting adjusted perhaps?


----------



## sq_guru

I am depressed hearing that you think that ugly overbuilt basic SPL subwoofer from PG outperformed the W7. That's very hard to accept.


----------



## bertholomey

At least that is more interesting way to score another post as you build up to 50


----------



## FartinInTheTub

^^^


bertholomey said:


> At least that is more interesting way to score another post as you build up to 50


----------



## Coppertone

oldskewl said:


> Got mine for $375 to the door from an authorized dealer, let me know if you need the hookup...


I'm in need of the hookup, please pm me.


----------



## oldskewl

TrickyRicky said:


> Ears getting adjusted perhaps?


I dont think so but one never knows I guess. One thing for sure is I put alot more time into tuning with the Morel, the JL had sooooo much bass tuning didnt seem to make as much a diff as it did with the Morel. 

I have to think a subwoofer is like a new engine, as in they both need a short break in time at operating temperatures to get everything moving smoothly.


----------



## ChrisB

I just skimmed through the whole thread and didn't see any RTA response plots when the various subwoofers were swapped in and out. Where are they? Don't tell me this is another one of those subjective tests using one's ears...


----------



## oldskewl

ChrisB said:


> I just skimmed through the whole thread and didn't see any RTA response plots when the various subwoofers were swapped in and out. Where are they? Don't tell me this is another one of those subjective tests using one's ears...


Ah, so your ears are unable to discern the differences between subwoofers, better get that checked out. 

Sorry, I dropped a grand plus on drivers and enclosures and wasnt able to afford an RTA. 

Rather than accept a solid, experienced user review you will sit and rip on all my effort for lack of an RTA? Tell you what, you just go ahead and buy all the same drivers AND AN RTA and go ahead and do it "right" yourself.

What a tool.


----------



## oldskewl

ChrisB: And "skimming" doesnt cut it. If you are going to make a loudmouthed statement like that you have better read the entire thread!


----------



## ChrisB

oldskewl said:


> Ah, so your ears are unable to discern the differences between subwoofers, better get that checked out.
> 
> Sorry, I dropped a grand plus on drivers and enclosures and wasnt able to afford an RTA.
> 
> Rather than accept a solid, experienced user review you will sit and rip on all my effort for lack of an RTA? Tell you what, you just go ahead and buy all the same drivers AND AN RTA and go ahead and do it "right" yourself.
> 
> What a douche.


I actually own a PC based RTA and have a calibrated measuring microphone. It just so happens that the human ear is least sensitive in the low frequency spectrum and any differences using YOUR ears is totally subjective. Finally, the sub is the LEAST important part of the musical reproduction spectrum yet all too many spend the bulk of their budget on the sub stage.




oldskewl said:


> ChrisB: And "skimming" doesnt cut it. If you are going to make a loudmouthed statement like that you have better read the entire thread!



So you are telling me you kept all things equal between the different subwoofers by using modeling software to keep the predicted F3 response plot similar between all the different subs then used YOUR ears to judge them?


----------



## bassfromspace

oldskewl said:


> Ah, so your ears are unable to discern the differences between subwoofers, better get that checked out.
> 
> Sorry, I dropped a grand plus on drivers and enclosures and wasnt able to afford an RTA.
> 
> Rather than accept a solid, experienced user review you will sit and rip on all my effort for lack of an RTA? Tell you what, you just go ahead and buy all the same drivers AND AN RTA and go ahead and do it "right" yourself.
> 
> What a douche.


What differences were you able to discern?


----------



## oldskewl

ChrisB said:


> I actually own a PC based RTA and have a calibrated measuring microphone. It just so happens that the human ear is least sensitive in the low frequency spectrum and any differences using YOUR ears is totally subjective. Finally, the sub is the LEAST important part of the musical reproduction spectrum yet all too many spend the bulk of their budget on the sub stage.


Well good for you Chris, now you just need to pick up a 12w7, Ultimo SC12 and a PG Ti12d Elite. Oh ya, and three enclosures. 

Anxiously awaiting your review....




PS Once again, before spouting off why dont you read the article? And no, the majority of my budget is in my front end. Of course you would know this if you had bothered to read the thread.


----------



## oldskewl

bassfromspace said:


> What differences were you able to discern?


Your kiddiing right? Read the thread dummy.


----------



## oldskewl

ChrisB said:


> I actually own a PC based RTA and have a calibrated measuring microphone. It just so happens that the human ear is least sensitive in the low frequency spectrum and any differences using YOUR ears is totally subjective. Finally, the sub is the LEAST important part of the musical reproduction spectrum yet all too many spend the bulk of their budget on the sub stage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are telling me you kept all things equal between the different subwoofers by using modeling software to keep the predicted F3 response plot similar between all the different subs then used YOUR ears to judge them?


Read the thread. I dont give a rats ass about the predicted F3 response, I care how they performed in my vehicle.

I cant wait to see your plots and to read your review on these three subs.... make sure to include pictures of all three subs together at the same time so we know you arent handing any bs.


----------



## oldskewl

And I will put my system up against the one in your rustang anyday ChrisB...


----------



## ChrisB

oldskewl said:


> And I will put my system up against the one in your rustang anyday ChrisB...


Come on down!

Oh, but to keep things fair, you need to come on down with a system in a S197 rustang utilizing the stock locations to compare apples to apples. I learned the hard way that the most troublesome part of car audio is the car itself!


----------



## ChrisB

oldskewl said:


> Read the thread. I dont give a rats ass about the predicted F3 response, I care how they performed in my vehicle.


So how did you keep your test scientific between the three different subwoofers if you had no baseline to keep things similar between all three?



oldskewl said:


> I cant wait to see your plots and to read your review on these three subs.... make sure to include pictures of all three subs together at the same time so we know you arent handing any bs.


Why should I? I'm happy with my system as it sits knowing the limitations of the environment that I chose to install it in.


----------



## bassfromspace

oldskewl said:


> Ah, so your ears are unable to discern the differences between subwoofers, better get that checked out.
> 
> Sorry, I dropped a grand plus on drivers and enclosures and wasnt able to afford an RTA.
> 
> Rather than accept a solid, experienced user review you will sit and rip on all my effort for lack of an RTA? Tell you what, you just go ahead and buy all the same drivers AND AN RTA and go ahead and do it "right" yourself.
> 
> What a douche.


What differences were you able to discern?


----------



## oldskewl

ChrisB said:


> So how did you keep your test scientific between the three different subwoofers if you had no baseline to keep things similar between all three?
> 
> 
> 
> Why should I? I'm happy with my system as it sits knowing the limitations of the environment that I chose to install it in.


Why should I? Because you spouted off at the lip! You are one stupid m.....r. I put a ton of work into sharing with this website and you come along and think you know it all, acting like my efforts are worthless? You are a bottom feeding moron.

And I wouldnt own a POS mustang if you paid me, no hp, looks like **** and has no resale value, nice car. NOT!

I GUARANTEE my system in my 2006 V-6, 260 hp Accord would put your "system" to shame AND smoke you in a 1/4 mile!

I will come down for the shootout when you post the test results on all three subs with pictures... 

YOU ARE A TOOL


----------



## oldskewl

I promise that I will never put forth effort like this again. Bunch of ungrateful pricks.


----------



## schmiddr2

They are making the point that most comparison tests have this in common; they do not take out all the variables, making the test unscientific and therefore leaving room for objective bias in the review.

Comparison tests are always subject to scrutiny but I for one appreciate them because of the things that go along with them. Like the additional hand-on product knowledge and the application ideas.

Do not take offense to what they are saying. It is how people in this segment of the hobby find absolutes.


----------



## ChrisB

oldskewl said:


> I GUARANTEE my system in my 2006 V-6, 260 hp Accord would put your "system" to shame AND smoke you in a 1/4 mile!


I actually owned a 2007 V6 6MT that was totaled in October 2007. I hate to break it to you, but you are wrong about the 1/4 mile thing.

And since you are a stickler for photos, here are a couple of my now gone Accord, prior to pulling the stick on pin stripes (I hate those things):




















oldskewl said:


> YOU ARE A TOOL


Flattery will get you nowhere!



schmiddr2 said:


> They are making the point that most comparison tests have this in common; they do not take out all the variables, making the test unscientific and therefore leaving room for objective bias in the review.
> 
> Comparison tests are always subject to scrutiny but I for one appreciate them because of the things that go along with them. Like the additional hand-on product knowledge and the application ideas.
> 
> Do not take offense to what they are saying. It is how people in this segment of the hobby find absolutes.


I'm sorry schmiddr2 and oldskewl. I'll go back into the corner and behave.:blush:


----------



## quality_sound

I think at least one of them was agreeing with you.


----------



## bertholomey

Brief change of pace.... 

This has nothing to do with the current discussion.... 

I heard a JL W7 (not positive of the size unfortunately) in an IB installation running off the D class channel of an Audison 5.1k (750 watts @ 4ohm)......... and it was fantastic! 

OK, sorry about that..... you were saying.....


----------



## joefro21

FartinInTheTub said:


> Yeh... pretty embarassing stuff. The worst part was that it was one of the most disgusting farts I have ever smelt! The whole room full of kids ran to the other side of the room! It was like something out of Something about Mary. The daycare teacher laughed so hard that she tripped over a tricycle. There was no hiding that it was me! The little asian kid had no shame calling me out... lil fugger. :mean:
> 
> Anyhow... sorry to interupt the convo... :laugh:


OMG I've been really attentive to everything being said, as I am searching for a sub to go into bmw 540i, but I totally forgot about all that info at said fart and following description. LMFAO glad I didn't have a sip of beer in my mouth, definitely would have balked it right out. Holy **** anyways, prob shouldn't be posting as I have nothing to add and lot's to learn. Peace all


----------



## Viggen

Some of us do appreciate this thread & you spending your own money & time for this comparison. THANK YOU... I personally do not care what a RTA shows since it's just what my ears hear that matters, never purchased any product with a RTA & do not plan on doing so. 

Obviously with any forum any comparison thread is based off of personal opinion. Even magazines have personal opinion however yea they also post more technical RTA stuff. The best looking product on paper doesn't always sound the best to our ears. 

With the help of this thread I have a 12 in Ultimo SC sitting in my garage waiting to be installed. 

Local shop suggests JL w3 or w6 for SQ over the w7.... both sales people are not fans of the w7 for SQ. I look forward to hearing the ultimo SC & getting the shops opinion of the sub compared to their JL stuff..... 

thanks again!


----------



## bertholomey

Viggen said:


> With the help of this thread I have a 12 in Ultimo SC sitting in my garage waiting to be installed.


While I'm at it....I really liked the sound of the Ultimo SC in Daniel's truck a couple weeks ago.


----------



## bassfromspace

Viggen said:


> Some of us do appreciate this thread & you spending your own money & time for this comparison. THANK YOU... I personally do not care what a RTA shows since it's just what my ears hear that matters, never purchased any product with a RTA & do not plan on doing so.
> 
> Obviously with any forum any comparison thread is based off of personal opinion. Even magazines have personal opinion however yea they also post more technical RTA stuff. The best looking product on paper doesn't always sound the best to our ears.
> 
> With the help of this thread I have a 12 in Ultimo SC sitting in my garage waiting to be installed.
> 
> *Local shop suggests JL w3 or w6 for SQ over the w7.... both sales people are not fans of the w7 for SQ.* I look forward to hearing the ultimo SC & getting the shops opinion of the sub compared to their JL stuff.....
> 
> thanks again!


I'd get a new shop to go to ASAP.


----------



## Jonny Hotnuts

> Frankly I dont see any reason a person would need the regular Ultimo, this SC kicks serious ass!!


The Harley Davidson 883 Sportster is made by HD and I am quite sure is plenty of bike for plenty of people....especially chicks.


----------



## Jonny Hotnuts

JK about the above post, the review was great, very entertaining and I cant wait to get my Ultimo 10 (*the non SC) installed. 


~JH


----------



## paulf1

WOW my first day here and this is the first thread I have read (completely) thanks to OP and all that contributed. 
I had my mind set on a JL 12w7 think I will keep that thought and maybe go with an Atreand sealed box instead of the Prowedge.


----------



## TrickyRicky

oldskewl said:


> I promise that I will never put forth effort like this again. Bunch of ungrateful pricks.


We appreciate your input and all the work you did to figure out what worked for you (and with different enclosures, cars, listener) it will never have the same outcome. Oh and ChrisB is just being honest with you, I've known him for a while and even though we have different opinions we always seem to agree with one thing.



paulf1 said:


> WOW my first day here and this is the first thread I have read (completely) thanks to OP and all that contributed.
> I had my mind set on a JL 12w7 think I will keep that thought and maybe go with an Atreand sealed box instead of the Prowedge.


Unless the Atrend enclosure is designed for the 12W7, I recommend you stay away from it. The only reason why I have an Atrend transmission enclosure was because it was on sale :laugh:. "AE" enclosures are better constructed then Atrend, but dont know if Best Buy carries "AE" because I know for a fact CircuitCity had them but that company is down and out.

Buying prefab enclosures is not always a good idea. The cheap terminal cups that Atrend uses leak air and if you pay attention to it, it will make you mad and switch em out for more hi-quality cups. I put on mine 5-way binding post (with the banana plug in, love it).


----------



## rape_ape

problem with most prefabs is its so hard to find one properly sized. usually they are too small.


----------



## subwoofery

ChrisB said:


> I actually own a PC based RTA and have a calibrated measuring microphone. It just so happens that the human ear is least sensitive in the low frequency spectrum and any differences using YOUR ears is totally subjective. Finally, the sub is the LEAST important part of the musical reproduction spectrum yet all too many spend the bulk of their budget on the sub stage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are telling me you kept all things equal between the different subwoofers by using modeling software to keep the predicted F3 response plot similar between all the different subs then used YOUR ears to judge them?


I have to give credit to this post... 

^¨_oldskewl_¨^ 
By going smaller and smaller with your box, you're limitting the low end stuff. I have no doubt that you can hit 20Hz in your car due to cabin gain but how loud can 20Hz be compared to say 50Hz (where peaks usually shows). I don't have to be in your car to guess that 20Hz can't be as strong as 50Hz - the small box emphasizes upper bass (above 40Hz). 
Some people prefer lower bass, some people prefer upper bass... 

_ChrisB_ was just suggesting the use of an RTA - or at least a modelling software+custom enclosure in order to give correct information to the DIYers that are reading your thread... In order to do a good subjective (by ear) test, the right thing to do is to keep everything as constant as possible: reason why _ChrisB_ suggested that F3 be the same for each subs... 
Your opinion will give a hint to some people but will not mean much to those that prefer lower bass... 


Please understand that I'm not discrediting your opinion, the money and the time involved to put up that test. I'm just explaining what was/is the true DIYMA spirit and how this website started  
Also please don't take it the wrong way, some DIYers have been around for so long that all they need to see is graphs and numbers  I'm also one of those guyz (now) :blush:

^ my constructive critisism

Kelvin


----------



## mariodada

Thank you for the time you spent, I also love my ultimo 12 (non SC) 1.5 with my Zeus VI.


----------



## jooonnn

Thank you to the OP for creating this thread! This was one of the threads that really helped fuel my impulsive buy (along with every other tidbit of words we impulsive buyers like to over analyze despite what our logical senses tell us haha). Don't let anyone bring you down on your test! As much as people may dislike it, they still took the time to read through your test and gave it enough time to make an opinion about it. I agree that maybe the test wasn't as true to consistency as a professional test would be but it still gives a realistic sense to the test since people use different shapes and sizes of boxes all the time. I'm a firm believer in aesthetics and size as being the #1 factor when it comes to subs in a premium price range. Cool specs and cool looking frequency response graphs can sound cool, but you can't knock something until you try it yourself!



bertholomey said:


> Brief change of pace....
> 
> This has nothing to do with the current discussion....
> 
> I heard a JL W7 (not positive of the size unfortunately) in an IB installation running off the D class channel of an Audison 5.1k (750 watts @ 4ohm)......... and it was fantastic!
> 
> OK, sorry about that..... you were saying.....


If this was mine it was a 13w7AE , thanks Jason


----------



## Sulley

Old thread I know, Sorry.
But after reading this whole thing did anyone fine a good happy medium on enclosure size for the Ultimo? I was offered a good price on a brand new one that I really couldn't pass up and now I have to build a box for it. I'm thinking 1.2-1.3 with maybe 1/2lb of polyfill? Any recommendations? or should I just spend the 50 bucks on a PWK design lol?


----------



## snaimpally

oldskewl said:


> UPDATE!
> 
> On a whim I put the SC in a 1.21 enclosure. The result is a much more controlled subwoofer that can now suck up waaaaaay more power than when it was in the 1.44. Output is down, however the overall experience with the smaller box was much better. The smaller enclosure gets rid of the last little bit of "basketball" sound from the sub, it is now truly amazing. My long term plans include a second SC, I think two SC's in a 1.1 or so each enclosure would sound phenom!


Glad you are enjoying the Ultimo SC. I haven't heard the SC but have the Ultimo - its an amazing sounding sub. Several DIYMA members heard my setup and then went out and bought Ultimos for themselves.

When the Ultimo came out, I had read 3 different magazine reviews on it. Each magazine used a different size enclosure. Based on the reviews I ended up deciding on a 1.25 cu ft enclosure for sealed use.

Morel Hifi - Products Reviews


----------



## Sulley

snaimpally said:


> Glad you are enjoying the Ultimo SC. I haven't heard the SC but have the Ultimo - its an amazing sounding sub. Several DIYMA members heard my setup and then went out and bought Ultimos for themselves.
> 
> When the Ultimo came out, I had read 3 different magazine reviews on it. Each magazine used a different size enclosure. Based on the reviews I ended up deciding on a 1.25 cu ft enclosure for sealed use.
> 
> Morel Hifi - Products Reviews


Thanks, Bassbox Pro and WinISD gives a pretty similar answer. I think I might just build a temporary 1.5ft^3 and add material to experiment. 

Thanks, Rod


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## denetnz

Thanks to the OP and all contributers to this thread. Special thanks to FartnInTheTub - I cannot remember when I last laughed so hard - I've been through some tough times lately, and this has been VERY therapeutic.

Most of all, it has given even more weight to what has been a growing suspicion - I suspect that many people regard an SQ sub to be one without much low end bass and lots of midbass. Failing to reproduce the low end bass allows the detail of the midbass to be heard more clearly and hence the sub is considered to be more detailed (although in reality it is just missing the low end detail!)


----------



## mob17

i dont really know if i want a SQ sub or an SPL one. the above comment has made me consider an SPL one. i dont need huge ground shaking bass, but i dont want a quiet sub either.

By the way, reading this post the optimal sealed enclosure size people are going for is 1.25cu ft. why is this? the manual states the 0.998cu ft is the optimal.


----------



## DAT

mob17 said:


> i dont really know if i want a SQ sub or an SPL one. the above comment has made me consider an SPL one. i dont need huge ground shaking bass, but i dont want a quiet sub either.
> 
> By the way, reading this post the optimal sealed enclosure size people are going for is 1.25cu ft. why is this? the manual states the 0.998cu ft is the optimal.


all companies make a "generic" for the mass public size optimal box, my JBL GTI 10's are listed at .75cuft, too punchy at that size box, i use them in a 1 cuft sealed box and get better extention / lows.

*The larger a sealed box is, the lower the sub will play, but the less power it will handle. The smaller a sealed box is,
the higher the frequency the sub will play, and the more power it will handle.*


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## niceguy

I still remember running a small PG Ti 10 (non elite, didn't like the cone lights). I got it for $80 brand new shipped off ebay or something about 10 years ago and ran it with 500rms forever. Very nice sub and I ended up giving it to my little brother who's had it in his BMW for a couple of years and it's still banging...


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## Audiophilefred

Awesome review, love my pg ti12. My favorite sub I've ever used nothing comes close imo


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## Mohito

Hello people,
I'm thinking of getting the UltimoSC 12" for my car and not sure about what size sealed enclosure - the manual suggests 1.94 Cu Ft is optimal, but I'm metric and lost, can someone share some guidance on what type of sealed box I need?

Ideally external dimensions in cm - does it need to be a perfect square? I see some boxes with an angle on the back... Ideally I'd prefer the smallest possible but I understand a bigger than minimum has it's advantages. 

Thank you!


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## Mohito

I also heard the Ultimo SC 12" is slightly smaller in diameter compared to normal 12" subs so doesn't fit generic 12" sealed enclosures, is this correct?


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## Saturnsl2lover

Someone needs to bump the new peerless sub i bet it will outperform all these for less money


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## GreatLaBroski

Mohito said:


> Hello people,
> I'm thinking of getting the UltimoSC 12" for my car and not sure about what size sealed enclosure - the manual suggests 1.94 Cu Ft is optimal, but I'm metric and lost, can someone share some guidance on what type of sealed box I need?
> 
> Ideally external dimensions in cm - does it need to be a perfect square? I see some boxes with an angle on the back... Ideally I'd prefer the smallest possible but I understand a bigger than minimum has it's advantages.
> 
> Thank you!


Actually I thought it suggested 0.94 cubic feet. General usage-based recommendations suggest 1.3-1.4 cuft.


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## Mohito

Thanks, I'm basing this info on this graph from the Ultimo SC 12" manual:



Showing sealed and ported volumes. 
That's how I understand it...?


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## GreatLaBroski

That's the Titanium SC, not the SC 12. If you're looking at the Titanium SC's then they recommend 0.706 cuft - 1.76 cuft. I'd still feel good about 1.3-1.4cuft.

Manual (look at page 4): https://www.morelhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Ultimo-TI-Ultimo-TI-SC-manual-for-web.pdf


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## JCsAudio

This old thread is from 2011.


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## GreatLaBroski

He resurrected it so I figured I'd at least try to be useful


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## Viggen

I had the cheaper of the morel 12in sub in the suggested enclosure of less then 1 cu ft and didn’t like the sound of it. I had a local shop make the enclosure, which was fiberglass and was made it smaller then I asked (I do not know how to do fiberglass work). I am sure it sounds awesome in a larger then suggested box, I to a hybrid Claris 10 which sounded better in the 1cu ft enclosure


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## GreatLaBroski

Viggen said:


> I had the cheaper of the morel 12in sub in the suggested enclosure of less then 1 cu ft and didn’t like the sound of it. I had a local shop make the enclosure, which was fiberglass and was made it smaller then I asked (I do not know how to do fiberglass work). I am sure it sounds awesome in a larger then suggested box, I to a hybrid Claris 10 which sounded better in the 1cu ft enclosure


This is what've I've consistently heard too. They seem to like 1.3-1.4 cuft.


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## Mohito

Thanks people, 
I ordered a 1.6 cuft enclosure for the Ultimo SC 12" - I wonder if its too much now? Should I add some fill?

What does it mean that a larger enclosure limits power handling? I want to power it with two channels of a Mosconi AS 200.4 - generating 640W @4Ohm (the sub is 4 Ohm).

Lastly, how high do you set your HPF for this sub, is 100hz too much?

thank you!


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