# HELIX DSP ULTRA HEC USB module and the SPDIF inputs A/B testing.



## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

So I've just ordered a helix ultra, USB module and WiFi controller. The gear will be here soon and installed next week, except the USB module which is 6 weeks away. @dumdum has kindly advised me how to use a Topping 10 to turn the digital USB signal out of a phone or an Astell & Kern personal DAP into a signal that can go into the SPDIF socket of the helix ultra. Latest news from Audiotech Fischer on Helix and after advice on Alpine PXA-H800 So two questions:

has anyone devised any other methods?
and whatever method you have used, have you been able to do A/B testing to see if the sound quality is as good as using the Helix USB module?
If I implement the SPDIF solution it means I can keep the Ultra slot free for another module. But I don't want to compromise sound quality. And i'd really like a plug and play solution, I'll solder if I have too but electronics work doesn't come naturally to me. 

Thanks
Sam


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

The problem isnt really the sound. Its do you want to install another piece of equipment somewhere in the car? Hec usb makes things easy

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> The problem isnt really the sound. Its do you want to install another piece of equipment somewhere in the car? Hec usb makes things easy
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


I've got plenty of space I can install stuff. But I do want to make it as easy as possible and I don't want to compromise sound. But there's also the flexibility. Helix have a new Ultra module coming out in 3-6 months but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. I'll chase that up, but if it's something I want then using the SPDIF inputs allows me to fit one.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> The problem isnt really the sound. Its do you want to install another piece of equipment somewhere in the car? Hec usb makes things easy
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


But you are right SkizeR, Hec USB does make things easy.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Sam Spade said:


> I've got plenty of space I can install stuff. But I do want to make it as easy as possible and I don't want to compromise sound. But there's also the flexibility. Helix have a new Ultra module coming out in 3-6 months but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. I'll chase that up, but if it's something I want then using the SPDIF inputs allows me to fit one.


HEC Audiostage. Not sure where you heard 3-6 months


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Funnily enough I’ve just ordered a second topping d10 as I’ve learnt mine someone for the EMMA European finals that didn’t happen a few weeks back and now lockdown has happened...

so I have just plummed my tablet in via a usb hec, so guess what I’m going to be doing when I get my topping in the post... the exact comparison you speak of with my ultra 👍🏼 I’ll let you know as my coax lead is run already, just run a usb lead and connect her up


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Funnily enough I’ve just ordered a second topping d10 as I’ve learnt mine someone for the EMMA European finals that didn’t happen a few weeks back and now lockdown has happened...
> 
> so I have just plummed my tablet in via a usb hec, so guess what I’m going to be doing when I get my topping in the post... the exact comparison you speak of with my ultra 👍🏼 I’ll let you know as my coax lead is run already, just run a usb lead and connect her up


That's great dumdum thanks, i'd be really interested in the results.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

SkizeR said:


> HEC Audiostage. Not sure where you heard 3-6 months


SkizeR it was from the Australian distributor


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## darinof (Feb 6, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> HEC Audiostage. Not sure where you heard 3-6 months


Does the HEC Audiostage and the HEC HD-Audio USB-Interface work for the same purpose? 
I'm wondering which one should I order with the Ultra for Ipad connection.


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## darinof (Feb 6, 2009)

I have the idea to use the Ultra without a head unit. I want to use the mini Ipad on the dash as music source. Do you guy's know if that something that can be done?


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## Envyrao (Mar 19, 2020)

@darinof 
What I understand, 
Hec Audio stage will have wifi control for your smartphone ios/android to control external HDD will be connected through the usb port to the DSP. Also, it is expected to have on board spotify client which you can run from your smartphone. Also, it is expected support ALAC/FLAC files on the external HDD. Launch date is not yet announced, may take longer than 3-4 months. As there is no official communication from the Audio Fischer about the launch date. HEC USB is physically connected to a phone or usb dap. I personally feel connecting dap through coaxial connection is a better option for now and wait for HEC Audiostage rather than going for HEC USB.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Be careful with a usb hec with idevices, I swapped mine out for a bt hec as the usb hec didn’t want to play ball with my iPhone XR, it wasn’t the camera kit as it worked with the topping D10 perfectly 👍🏼


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Be careful with a usb hec with idevices, I swapped mine out for a bt hec as the usb hec didn’t want to play ball with my iPhone XR, it wasn’t the camera kit as it worked with the topping D10 perfectly 👍🏼


Hi dumdum, thanks for all the great info. I have read the above and your posts on this thread : 
Latest news from Audiotech Fischer on Helix and after advice on Alpine PXA-H800 

Messing around with electronics is not a strength of mine. 

So I have some questions, I have had a look at the topping and it looks great but you are using them so I want to confirm some things with the expert:

is the topping plug and play? IE plug USB in one socket and coax or optical toslink in another and it does the conversion just fine?
Would you mount the toslink at the front of the cabin, and run a short USB to it, and a long coax or toslink to the helix (note my challenger is a pretty long station wagon and the Ultra will be at the very back, OR would you run a long USB and mount the topping near the Helix?
The pics of you soldering etc in this page, Is that you setting up the USB hub and getting a power supply for the topping and USB devices, or is the topping not plug and play and you had to modify it? :








Latest news from Audiotech Fischer on Helix and after...


also you missed the point about the topping (if you’re a brand snob ignore this... the topping outperforms 90% of the usb converters on the market! It’s so cheap some would ignore it, however it has next to no signature, excellent frequency response analogue and is awesome as a digital signal...




www.diymobileaudio.com





Oh and thanks also for your advice that helped steer me in the end from an alpine H800 to a Helix Ultra.  

Regards
Sam


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

1, yes it’s fairly straightforward 👍🏼 Exactly that

2, I was of the understanding that usb shorter is better, coax is less length dependant so I use the topping at the base of my centre console

3, mine is somewhat complicated by a fixed tablet, this means that unless I turn the tablet off each time it sits in a state of on, but with the screen off, so the usb hub stays powered as it’s always plugged in

You need some form of power for sure with an iPhone, so I used a usb3 camera kit, as I was unplugging the phone each time it was never an issue

but with the android tablet I found the hub always being plugged in drained the battery excessively, on my short journey to work this wouldn’t put the charge back in so I took the decision to perform surgery, all I did was found the two 5v cables from tablet to hub and interupt them the tablet to the hub, this stops the drain, I just run the two cables through a relay and have the 5v leads join up when the ignition is switched on and normal service is resumed

if you were removing a phone each time you left the vehicle youwouldn’t need any soldering and surgery, just cables plugged in and away you go, I think (but not 100% as I don’t have my topping delivered as yet) you’d need a hub for usb c pass they power to provide extra oomph for the topping, I think I paid £17 for my hub, a Lead I had kicking about, and that was all she wrote 👍🏼


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> 1, yes it’s fairly straightforward 👍🏼 Exactly that
> 2, I was of the understanding that usb shorter is better, coax is less length dependant so I use the topping at the base of my centre console
> 3, mine is somewhat complicated by a fixed tablet, this means that unless I turn the tablet off each time it sits in a state of on, but with the screen off, so the usb hub stays powered as it’s always plugged in
> You need some form of power for sure with an iPhone, so I used a usb3 camera kit, as I was unplugging the phone each time it was never an issue
> ...


That's still somewhat complicated without a topping in my hand. But I think what I'll do is
1) order a topping
2) Car is in the shop Thursday. As my installer has to run a USB cable from the centre console to the Helix ultra to the use the HEC HD-AUDIO USB-INTERFACE - DSP ULTRA I'll get him to run a coax digital and a toslink optical at the same time. Then I can mess around and see what's best, and whatever device I want to connect in the future will be compatible. Plus the HEC HD-AUDIO USB-INTERFACE is about 3 months away still, so I'm keen to get the SPDIF up and running asap.

Constructing cables and making or modifying USB charging hubs is way out of my current skill set  

As I have my old A&K AK70 and my new A&ultima SP1000M (which should have 8-10 hours battery life) plus a LGV30+ phone and they will all hold stacks of albums FLAC and have good battery life, I probably don't need to have powered USB hubs even on 1000 km trips to the Alps or Melbourne or Sydney, I can just cycle between sources if I need to.

Oh and I know you have your sources sorted out, and I've probably said this before, but if you'd like a device you can use as a car source, and a better portable listening experience via headphones the A&K products are awesome, There are a bunch of other good brands out there too. They absolutely smash my LGV30+ out of the ballpark and that has a dedicated quad core chip for music. It's nice but not even close to A&K. And it is supposed to be the 2nd best music phone on the market other than the newer LGV40+. When I first plugged my PMX 686G Sennheiser running headphones into the A&ultima SP1000M it sounded like I was listening to a pair of headphones 3 times the price. 

cheers
Sam


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> 1, yes it’s fairly straightforward 👍🏼 Exactly that
> 2, I was of the understanding that usb shorter is better, coax is less length dependant so I use the topping at the base of my centre console
> 3, mine is somewhat complicated by a fixed tablet, this means that unless I turn the tablet off each time it sits in a state of on, but with the screen off, so the usb hub stays powered as it’s always plugged in
> You need some form of power for sure with an iPhone, so I used a usb3 camera kit, as I was unplugging the phone each time it was never an issue
> ...


Hi dumdum or anyone else interested, have you seen one of these? 








XMOS 192kHz high-quality USB to SPDIF with ultralow noise 1uV regulator w/manual power switch


NDK NZ2520SD Ultra low phase noise oscillator World's lowest noise 1.0uV regulator from Analog Devices or 0.8uV from Linear Technology New DXIO PRO3Z uses the latest XMOS XCORE-200 XU216-512, it is equal to Two XU208 in One chip. 4+2 layer PCB = total 6 layer PCB




www.diyinhk.com





Good reviews from someone who also had a Topping 10 I think, username kray.








USB to SPDIF comparisons


So I've decided to try out a couple things. First I want to convert USB from Mac mini to SPDIF to feed my DAC. I was first going to try the Schiit...




audiokarma.org





I'm going to try and find out more about the comparison from them and any other sources. And it might take a while to get one. But I'm thinking I might buy a Topping that I can get here in Oz delivered ASAP, cos I want to get a USB to SPDIF solution installed at the same time as the Helix Ultra at the end of the week, and if investigations show that the DXIO is as good as claimed, switch the Topping 10 to my desktop PC as a DAC to go into my Marantz PM80/Dynaudio Image 1's and put a DXIO into the car.


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## nirschl (Apr 30, 2009)

dumdum said:


> Funnily enough I’ve just ordered a second topping d10 as I’ve learnt mine someone for the EMMA European finals that didn’t happen a few weeks back and now lockdown has happened...
> 
> so I have just plummed my tablet in via a usb hec, so guess what I’m going to be doing when I get my topping in the post... the exact comparison you speak of with my ultra 👍🏼 I’ll let you know as my coax lead is run already, just run a usb lead and connect her up


Been using the Topping D10 in my Land Cruiser since it came out. Works beautifully. Although, I’m ordering the new E30 to replace it.


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

Sam Spade said:


> Hi dumdum or anyone else interested, have you seen one of these?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you get one let us know how well it works for you.

I’ve been using iFi iLink. It is a discontinued product but you can sometimes find them for sale. (I bought one off of eBay for $150 back in Feb).

iFi’s current model that can serve as a USB to SPDIF is the iFi nano iOne. That can convert Bluetooth or USB to SPDIF.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Thanks 


Bnlcmbcar said:


> If you get one let us know how well it works for you.
> 
> I’ve been using iFi iLink. It is a discontinued product but you can sometimes find them for sale. (I bought one off of eBay for $150 back in Feb).
> 
> iFi’s current model that can serve as a USB to SPDIF is the iFi nano iOne. That can convert Bluetooth or USB to SPDIF.


Thanks bnlcmbcar, i can get one of those at short notice so that's an option.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

nirschl said:


> Been using the Topping D10 in my Land Cruiser since it came out. Works beautifully. Although, I’m ordering the new E30 to replace it.


Hi Nirschl, i was under the impression that the D10 was the only topping DAC that also did USB to SPDIF conversion. I had a look at an Australian suppliers website and it didn't mention that the E30 did USB to SPDIF connection but it might, and might just not mention it on this website. Can you confirm? I'm assuming you are using it as a USB to SPDIF connection? Cheers, Sam


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## nirschl (Apr 30, 2009)

Sam Spade said:


> Hi Nirschl, i was under the impression that the D10 was the only topping DAC that also did USB to SPDIF conversion. I had a look at an Australian suppliers website and it didn't mention that the E30 did USB to SPDIF connection but it might, and might just not mention it on this website. Can you confirm? I'm assuming you are using it as a USB to SPDIF connection? Cheers, Sam


Yes, the E30 is an all around upgrade to the D10(fantastic in its own right). Check out this link for review and measurements.









Topping E30 DAC Review


This is a review and detailed measurements of the new Topping E30 USB DAC. It was kindly sent to me by the company for testing. Unfortunately I did not get pricing information. As soon as I get it, I will post it. EDIT: just heard back. US cost is just $129.99! This is a bit of a new look...




www.audiosciencereview.com





First photo shows the back of the D10 and second the E30.

Running Coax or Toslink out to your processor will do the trick. USB to your device. In case if the iPhone or iPad you’ll need the camera connection kit.
Cheers


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

nirschl said:


> Yes, the E30 is an all around upgrade to the D10(fantastic in its own right). Check out this link for review and measurements.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Nirschl, that is very helpful. I'm android all the way so that's ok. How do you power the Topping?
Regards
Sam


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## nirschl (Apr 30, 2009)

Sam Spade said:


> Thanks Nirschl, that is very helpful. I'm android all the way so that's ok. How do you power the Topping?
> Regards
> Sam


No problem. All it needs is 5V which could even be gotten from a phone charger or even your phone. For my Topping, we just made
an external bus power supply just to cut down on any possible noise.
The E30 comes with the DC5V to USB cable in the box. I’d suggest using it for cleaner power and sound. USB bus power also available.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Well the topping arrived, getting the same levels of detail, stage separation, extra stage height, more realism to instruments, I will of course do some technical measurements also to ensure it’s not a completely different frequency response, that would kinda mess with testing, but when I did alpine bt and usb vs bt hec vs topping last time it was nigh on identical once level matched from 80hz to 19.5khz, the extra detail was from the very small compact box that is the topping, the difference between the topping and the usb hec is quite substantial...

anyone want to buy an ultra or pro 2 usb hec (I have end plates for both!) far better than a normal stereo, but vs a topping no comparison!

via analogue the toppings freq response is something crazy









Review and Measurements of Topping D10 DAC


This is a review of the recently released Topping D10 DAC. I purchased mine from massdrop for just $75 including shipping. I see it online from Aliexpress for $89. I must say, this is one of the most handsome budget DACs I have seen with a nice retro amber/orange 7-segment LED display...




audiosciencereview.com













Topping D10 USB DAC and USB SPDIF Converter Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com


A simple $90 DAC that could embarrass some products costing 10 times the price. If a USB input is all you need, the Topping D10 does everything a good...




www.google.co.uk





For those that don’t know what a topping is, it’s a very compact usb dac but also functions as a usb to optical or coax digital converter! Works exceptionally well and has some awesome sound quality! And it’s less than £65 U.K. pounds, so about $95... it’s literally the best upgrade you can get if you have a system capable of high resolution audio!

I’d happily chip in for one to send round for people to try, it’s literally that amazing! If you like it just order one and send it to the next person that wants to try it, they really are that good if true sound quality is your goal!

I will post frequency response from the same source via usb hec and the topping as both are plummed in, the only shame is I have to unplug the hec so I can’t hit swap sat in the front of the car via the director... not sure how to select the audio out on the android tablet... answers on a postcard please gents and lady’s!

enough bleating! Try one and hear details you’ve not heard before in music!


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

I get what the e30 is, however it’s not the same thing as the topping, it’s a pure dac, it uses the coax, optical and the usb as inputs and spits out analogue audio

The topping D10 removes two stages of conversion (albeit one clean one in the e30) of a/d and d/a conversion, I would rather not have rca leads and conversions in the chain

have pure digital into the processor, less links in the chain so to speak!

So while the e30 may be an excellent dac, it’s not quite what the topping is being used for in this threads case


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)




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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

And just incase you don’t believe me... that’s topping themselves...
View attachment 265469


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## teh_squirrel (Jan 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Well the topping arrived, getting the same levels of detail, stage separation, extra stage height, more realism to instruments, I will of course do some technical measurements also to ensure it’s not a completely different frequency response, that would kinda mess with testing, but when I did alpine bt and usb vs bt hec vs topping last time it was nigh on identical once level matched from 80hz to 19.5khz, the extra detail was from the very small compact box that is the topping, the difference between the topping and the usb hec is quite substantial...
> 
> anyone want to buy an ultra or pro 2 usb hec (I have end plates for both!) far better than a normal stereo, but vs a topping no comparison!
> 
> ...


Lets say you have an android phone or tablet, what app would you use to play .flac files or dsd files to the d10? So it's android device -> OTG cable -> D10 -> DSP? 

Optical or SPDIF?

For the price this seems like a great alternative to a high priced digital music player! Where would you order one from now?


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

teh_squirrel said:


> Lets say you have an android phone or tablet, what app would you use to play .flac files or dsd files to the d10? So it's android device -> OTG cable -> D10 -> DSP?
> 
> Optical or SPDIF?
> 
> For the price this seems like a great alternative to a high priced digital music player! Where would you order one from now?


I know for the iPhone the Onkyo app is the one for hires stuff from the iPhone, I’m new to android and use the tidal app built in for playing so I can’t really help you, but having just looked on the tablet in the car the ‘Onkyo HF player’ is present and can be used to play dsd I believe 👍🏼

in my case I go from the Samsung tab a with a ugreen 5 to 1 usb hub, this allows me to input charge to the tablet in the car and also this usb c input provides power to the topping

I then go via 75ohm coax cable to the dsp in the boot and that does me until I output 5 channels of audio to my front stage and subwoofer 👍

I may at some point also try it via optical if I change my dsp to a cheaper model, but as I can accept coax in and it’s in theory a better transfer than optical I use that for now (plus I get to make my own cables and techflex them)

Mines just come from an eBay supplier in the U.K., but my last one (I leant it someone then a lockdown happened!) was from amazon.co.uk


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## teh_squirrel (Jan 16, 2020)

Holy @$%#^!!! Your dashboard shows some dedication. I was about to yell to my wife to come over and check out the picture but she is in a zoom meeting. That is amazing. I can't wait to see what it looks like that is so impressive. I just went from thinking about the dac to total awe.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

teh_squirrel said:


> Holy @$%#^!!! Your dashboard shows some dedication. I was about to yell to my wife to come over and check out the picture but she is in a zoom meeting. That is amazing. I can't wait to see what it looks like that is so impressive. I just went from thinking about the dac to total awe.


It’s getting from my brain to actually taking shape over the next few weeks 👍🏼 Thanks, I have a build log showing lots of stuff over on the other site (car audio junkies)

im just sat outside the house revelling in having my detail and soundstage back once more


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Ok i couldn't get a topping at short notice in Australia and my helix ultra is supposed to be arriving and installed between today and saturday. And the wifi controller and USB module won't be here for up to 3 months. But the australian distributor has given my installer and i instructions to get the ultra to automatically switch between head unit and SPDIF, whichever is live. The installer is running USB, toslink optical and digital 75 ohm coax between the Ultra and my console so i can try all my options. If the SPDIF sounds as good or better than the USB module then i can get another module if i like.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

So anyway as i couldnt get a topping at short notice i ordered one of these which hopefully will get to my installer tomorrow. Anyone used one for USB to SPDIF conversion? Oh or tried it as a DAC? Cos if it gets booted out of my car its going to take my PC output into my marantz system on my desktop. iFi nano iOne Digital Analog Converter


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

But im still keen to order one of these and try it. 
















XMOS 192kHz high-quality USB to SPDIF with ultralow noise 1uV regulator w/manual power switch


NDK NZ2520SD Ultra low phase noise oscillator World's lowest noise 1.0uV regulator from Analog Devices or 0.8uV from Linear Technology New DXIO PRO3Z uses the latest XMOS XCORE-200 XU216-512, it is equal to Two XU208 in One chip. 4+2 layer PCB = total 6 layer PCB




www.diyinhk.com


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Sam Spade said:


> But im still keen to order one of these and try it.
> View attachment 265543
> 
> 
> ...











Review & Measurements of Allo DigiOne Signature and DIYINHK Pro3Z


This is a review, detailed measurements and comparison of two S/PDIF digital audio output converters. The Allo DigiOne Signature is a networked S/PDIF converter built on top of Raspberry Pi single board computer. It retails for $239. With the nice acrylic case, it goes for $259: The...




www.audiosciencereview.com





the dxio basically measures very well (no better than a topping) but is over priced and3x the cost of the topping 👍🏼


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

the ifi is used by my friend in his install, he has 10 grands worth of audiowave amps in his boot, dyn midbass, scan 12m, dls Nordic’s sub, in other words a very high resolution system, he bought it years ago before th topping was about, we will be trying a swap and change in the Netherlands once the lockdown is done, I suspect there will be little to no difference between them and a clarion CD player via optical with our competition cd vs Apple and android sources via the usb to spdif converters but we have to see 👍🏼


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Oh and can anyone explain in plain english what this does and if it would be good to have one? 
iFi SPDIF iPurifier Noise Isolator


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Ok now i think i know what it does. But im wondering if it would offer improvements to any of the USB to SPDIF converters we are using/discussing like the topping or the ifi nano i one or XMOS. and even if there might be jitter introduced in the first place by the device that outputs USB. but id like to think that my A&K players were low jitter. Or if in an auto environment interference caused jitter?


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## nirschl (Apr 30, 2009)

dumdum said:


> And just incase you don’t believe me... that’s topping themselves...
> View attachment 265469
> View attachment 265470


Right on with your explanation on the E30. I was just assuming the COAX and SPDIF were outputs like the D10. Good call! Today I got a new SKW COAX cable to try out with it going directly to my Zapco HDSP.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

nirschl said:


> Right on with your explanation on the E30. I was just assuming the COAX and SPDIF were outputs like the D10. Good call! Today I got a new SKW COAX cable to try out with it going directly to my Zapco HDSP.


I make my own coax interconnects, I used the van damme 75ohm coax as it was only £7.80 for 5m and £2.30 for the rean rca plugs to connect it at the topping and my helix ultra

ideally the best plug for digital is crimp on like a bnc, see the below article about how good rca plugs are and why the rcap is as good as it gets



Is There Such a Thing as a 75 Ohm RCA Plug? -- Blue Jeans Cable


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> I make my own coax interconnects, I used the van damme 75ohm coax as it was only £7.80 for 5m and £2.30 for the rean rca plugs to connect it at the topping and my helix ultra
> 
> ideally the best plug for digital is crimp on like a bnc, see the below article about how good rca plugs are and why the rcap is as good as it gets
> 
> ...


Smartypants making your own cables


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> If you get one let us know how well it works for you.
> 
> I’ve been using iFi iLink. It is a discontinued product but you can sometimes find them for sale. (I bought one off of eBay for $150 back in Feb).
> 
> iFi’s current model that can serve as a USB to SPDIF is the iFi nano iOne. That can convert Bluetooth or USB to SPDIF.


Well Bnlcmbcar, I have ordered a iFi nano iOne Digital Analog Converter and I hope it gets to my installer tomorrow, and I hope my Helix Ultra gets to my installer tomorrow too.

My alarm was installed today. and window tinting. Now my black SUV will look like a limo to match how quiet the sound deadening has made it inside. Or is that just me going deaf from listening to loud music? Or possibly conformation Bias?


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> I know for the iPhone the Onkyo app is the one for hires stuff from the iPhone, I’m new to android and use the tidal app built in for playing so I can’t really help you, but having just looked on the tablet in the car the ‘Onkyo HF player’ is present and can be used to play dsd I believe 👍🏼
> 
> in my case I go from the Samsung tab a with a ugreen 5 to 1 usb hub, this allows me to input charge to the tablet in the car and also this usb c input provides power to the topping
> 
> ...


That's unbelievable. And the opposite of my installation brief which was "Must look OEM and not scream "steal me"  This is a real functional car and not a lab testbed???


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## SiW80 (Mar 13, 2019)

dumdum said:


> I make my own coax interconnects, I used the van damme 75ohm coax as it was only £7.80 for 5m and £2.30 for the rean rca plugs to connect it at the topping and my helix ultra
> 
> ideally the best plug for digital is crimp on like a bnc, see the below article about how good rca plugs are and why the rcap is as good as it gets
> 
> ...


Can you post links for where to buy in the UK. 

Or how much for you to make me one 

PM me if that’s easier. 

Simon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## darinof (Feb 6, 2009)

Is there any place in USA where I can buy the D10? online shows over a month for shipping.


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

SiW80 said:


> Can you post links for where to buy in the UK.
> 
> Or how much for you to make me one
> 
> ...


You can buy a coax cable with rca connections cheap! 
Or make one is super simple. You need compression tool, coax stripper, rg6 coax and connectors All are cheap and anyone can do it. Here’s a tool kit cheap.







Here’s rca compression fittings








Or just buy the cable 








There is no special coax cable. Any rg6 quad shield will work. I’ve installed cable , satellite and home theater and automation for 20 years and many uninformed people will try to argue About the cable. Lmao


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

I'm a little confused here. Why would one need/want to add a D10 to convert USB to coax into a dsp that accepts USB input? Are you _only_ doing this to keep the HEC slot open or are you inferring that this is somehow beneficial?


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## mattkim1337 (Jan 31, 2018)

I tried a Topping D10 with a Helix DSP Ultra with the Coaxial SPDIF input and noticed no significant difference compared to other cheap devices or even the analog inputs. There was also a nasty clicking/skipping sound that appeared when playing 24bit 192k tracks off Amazon Music HD which occured only with the D10. Got rid of it ASAP. Until someone can provide objective evidence why the D10 is superior to the HEC and how that translates to audibility, this is a pointless comparison.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

captainobvious said:


> I'm a little confused here. Why would one need/want to add a D10 to convert USB to coax into a dsp that accepts USB input? Are you _only_ doing this to keep the HEC slot open or are you inferring that this is somehow beneficial?


Because the difference in quality of the usb hec vs the digital output of the topping is very marked! Put bluntly the usb hec sounds no better than my pioneer headunit by Bluetooth or usb, the topping has excellent frequency response and detail levels way over that

he hasn’t got a usb hec yet and a topping is cheaper, sounds better in the sense that it has better stage height, imaging focus and more detail

I had one because I bought one for my iPhone with my dsp pro 2 so I fitted it in my ultra while my topping arrived and worked out how bad it sounded vs a decent usb to digital converter 👍🏼


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

mattkim1337 said:


> I tried a Topping D10 with a Helix DSP Ultra with the Coaxial SPDIF input and noticed no significant difference compared to other cheap devices or even the analog inputs. There was also a nasty clicking/skipping sound that appeared when playing 24bit 192k tracks off Amazon Music HD which occured only with the D10. Got rid of it ASAP. Until someone can provide objective evidence why the D10 is superior to the HEC and how that translates to audibility, this is a pointless comparison.


Happily, I can provide frequency response plots, but how do you show more detail for the exact same frequency response? Which I can demonstrate perfectly to anyone that wants to listen to my system

I do have graphs of frequency response for my old alpine 178bt by bt and usb inputs, vs a bt hec vs a topping all from the same phone using the same pink noise file for each

I will repeat it for the usb hec vs the topping when I get chance also

but it’s the exact same as two amps that have a flat frequency response... one can have better dynamics... there is a way to measure it I’m sure... rise time from minimum to maximum output for example, but I don’t have a device to measure it... yet, I am looking at buying an audio analyser if I can find one that is the right money


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## s0undgarden (Feb 22, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Because the difference in quality of the usb hec vs the digital output of the topping is very marked! Put bluntly the usb hec sounds no better than my pioneer headunit by Bluetooth or usb, the topping has excellent frequency response and detail levels way over that
> 
> he hasn’t got a usb hec yet and a topping is cheaper, sounds better in the sense that it has better stage height, imaging focus and more detail
> 
> I had one because I bought one for my iPhone with my dsp pro 2 so I fitted it in my ultra while my topping arrived and worked out how bad it sounded vs a decent usb to digital converter 👍🏼


I don't understand how that's possible? Usb is a digital signal, sq shouldn't be affected at all. If anything, I'd feel that the usb hec quality is superior to a dac via spdif. The signal goes straight to the dsp and is processed by its dac. With the topping d10, it will be processed through the d10 dac and then again by the helix. I'm not sure if that makes a difference, but if it does, it would likely be a negative one. The only reason I'm thinking about picking up a topping d10, even though I have a usb hec on my helix, is because it's broken as of the current ios on iphone. It will play music, but won't charge my phones at the same time. Also the other nice thing about the the d10 is that it can be used with any dsp that accepts spdif inputs. A helix hec card can only be used on that helix dsp, which is a bummer if you want to upgrade.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Happily, I can provide frequency response plots, but how do you show more detail for the exact same frequency response? Which I can demonstrate perfectly to anyone that wants to listen to my system
> 
> I do have graphs of frequency response for my old alpine 178bt by bt and usb inputs, vs a bt hec vs a topping all from the same phone using the same pink noise file for each
> 
> ...


dumdum, I wonder some of the same things as *s0undgarden*

I'm also waiting for the helix USB module for my Ultra. The gear that will let me convert USB from my A&K DAP into SPDIF has arrived at my installer. its this: iFi nano iOne Digital Analog Converter I was going to get a topping after all the noise on the forum about it and the great reviews but the aussie supplier has gone quiet since covid. I guess I could import one but if the nano ione works I could leave it at that. But I have been meaning to get a DAC for my PC to run into my marantz/dynaudio desktop system so I could get the topping compare it to the nano and leave the one, (IfI nano or topping) that works best in the car and put the other on my desk as a DAC for my PC. Then I'll eventually have access and decent DAC conversion of all my CD's as FLAC off my PC slave hard drive.

But you've got to think that Helix have done a pretty good job with the USB module so I'm sceptical that I'll be able to set up a SPDIF input that sounds better. Unless there's some inherent weakness of USB. and in that case I'm still converting the USB into SPDIF anyway.

But I want to work out how does the USB module and the SPDIF compare. If they are equal, or the SPDIF is better I can sell the USB module and have a spare spot in case I want another module.

i used to think I knew a lot about Audio. Fark I used to sell it and have awesome gear at home both speaker and headphone setups, and for portable use. But the technology improvements and the whole new unfamiliar car audio scene is making me feel like a complete beginner again. Well, the head units/amps/speakers/subs car hifi stuff is straight forward enough. But the whole DSP and tuning field that I now know is so important, I didn't even know car DSP's existed 3 months ago. I used to think I was pretty sophisticated setting up the time alignment on my past alpine and now Kenwood decks


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Oh and i'm still seriously tempted to try one of these even though they are more expensive. I've already got a ****load of home hifi I need to sell on EBAY. adding a few bits of car gear isn't such a big deal if I end up with a surplus.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

s0undgarden said:


> I don't understand how that's possible? Usb is a digital signal, sq shouldn't be affected at all. If anything, I'd feel that the usb hec quality is superior to a dac via spdif. The signal goes straight to the dsp and is processed by its dac. With the topping d10, it will be processed through the d10 dac and then again by the helix. I'm not sure if that makes a difference, but if it does, it would likely be a negative one. The only reason I'm thinking about picking up a topping d10, even though I have a usb hec on my helix, is because it's broken as of the current ios on iphone. It will play music, but won't charge my phones at the same time. Also the other nice thing about the the d10 is that it can be used with any dsp that accepts spdif inputs. A helix hec card can only be used on that helix dsp, which is a bummer if you want to upgrade.


You clearly don’t understand digital, once the digital goes into the topping it won’t be processed by the dac, it gets passed through as digital into coax, as does the digital from the phone converts in the usb hec to a digital audio signal, both will have to do some kind of conversion, if the quality of one conversion is poor vs the other then sound quality can be effected

It’s very much to do with the circuitry surrounding the digital hardware, if it’s poorly designed it’s very possible the output can be poor also the same as any other electronic component


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

For any comparison of the HEC inputs the same source needs to be used to properly A/B test.

So for the example of comparing the USB HEC input to the SPDIF Coaxial input, one has to use a source that outputs via USB and SPDIF Coax (I don’t really know of many out there).

Next best would be to use a source device that outputs USB and then use the same source device with a USB to Coax converter. But even then introducing that converter is introducing a variable.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> For any comparison of the HEC inputs the same source needs to be used to properly A/B test.
> 
> So for the example of comparing the USB HEC input to the SPDIF Coaxial input, one has to use a source that outputs via USB and SPDIF Coax (I don’t really know of many out there).
> 
> Next best would be to use a source device that outputs USB and then use the same source device with a USB to Coax converter. But even then introducing that converter is introducing a variable.


That’s what I’ve done, and that’s what I’m saying is the case, the circuitry around the usb to digital conversion is different, same source, different conversion gives different results


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## SiW80 (Mar 13, 2019)

dumdum said:


> That’s what I’ve done, and that’s what I’m saying is the case, the circuitry around the usb to digital conversion is different, same source, different conversion gives different results


Wonder if they both use the same XMOS chip for USB digital conversion. According to ASR it makes quite a difference. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

dumdum said:


> how do you show more detail for the exact same frequency response?





dumdum said:


> I don’t have a device to measure it... yet, I am looking at buying an audio analyser if I can find one that is the right money


Hmmm... may need something with a higher resolution of analyzing. Precision Audio is a household name for audio analyzers but good luck finding one at a friendly price.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> Hmmm... may need something with a higher resolution of analyzing. Precision Audio is a household name for audio analyzers but good luck finding one at a friendly price.


Do what everyone does and send it to amirm. I bought the HEC under the assumption it's going to be less noisy than trying to run a desktop DAC off of alternator power. Before committing I was torn between running a topping desktop DAC off of a USB battery, an NX4S, or the integrated Helix DAC. I'd be super interested to see how the desktop toppings function when powered from a car USB, vs. a USB battery, vs. a wall wart.

But seriously someone get amirm a helix HEC.


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## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

In the case of the HEC USB card, there is no conversion. The digital signal from the USB is directed straight to the inputs of the DSP. At most the difference would be in the clocking, and I'd prefer to use the clocking in the DSP.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

dobslob said:


> In the case of the HEC USB card, there is no conversion. The digital signal from the USB is directed straight to the inputs of the DSP. At most the difference would be in the clocking, and I'd prefer to use the clocking in the DSP.


Correct me if I'm wrong... The whole point of the HEC is to use the integrated DAC inside the Helix without converting to SPDIF first. There is a common thread among DACs where the USB input makes it very noisy, but with a SPDIF input the DAC hums along introducing no noise or distortion. The Topping DACs, among many other things, are renowned for overcoming this and producing very clean quality signal even from USB input.

🍻 🍻 Here is to Helix also being good at this and caring enough to put the engineering effort into this tiny little addon. 🍻 🍻


Edit - I'm responding sideways and a bit out of my depth. There is no ADC conversion with any digital input. In my limited experience reading on audiosciencereview it seems the vast majority of noisy DACs operate flawlessy using SPDIF in but are very noisy with USB in. This is the conversion I was referring to. Do I misunderstand how they operate? I'm not sure if the noise in inherent in the cable, the transmission protocol, or what - but amirm seems to regularly credit thoughtful engineering as the overcoming force.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

This is an interesting post about USB to SPDIF. Opinion Current best USB to SPDIF converter

“ _The main philosophy behind these gadgets is that until one breaches roughly the $3,000 price range, nearly any DAC will be significantly improved with these devices; as the thinking is their USB implementations are not as good as the more mature SPDIF technology for audio. SPDIF can take many forms: Digital Coax, AES/XLR, optical, i2s, and BNC seem to be the most popular. All high quality DACS will have one or more of these ports in addition to the USB input_.”

BUT it is highly likely that audiotech fischer given their massive R&D focus and reputation to protect and how much they know about integrating into the ULTRA or any of their DSPs, well, have almost certainly got themselves sorted and the helix USB module is going to be as good as any DIY USB to SPDIF rig I or anyone else sets up runs into the Ultra. But since I’ve bought one USB/SPDIF converter I’m at least going to A/B that. And who knows, one day I might want that ultra slot for another module.


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## Bnlcmbcar (Aug 23, 2016)

Sam Spade said:


> the thinking is their USB implementations are not as good as the more mature SPDIF technology for audio.


That stems from a school of thought that SPDIF was engineered for transferring audio where as USB was not specifically designed for that purpose.

USB owes its universal success to the ability to chain all kinds of devices, power them, provide them with a relatively high data transfer speed, backward compatibility as well as being an affordable implementation.

But *USB audio* devices have much more demanding requirements for USB hardware and software layers than any other USB devices like printers or flash drives.

The main difference is that *USB Audio* Class devices use ‘Isochronous’ transfers while other USB devices use ‘Bulk/Burst mode’ transfers.

What is isochronous mode?

“A sequence of events is isochronous if the events occur regularly, or at equal time intervals.”

(Source Wikipedia - Isochronous timing - Wikipedia)

The isochronous mode is used for media streaming because it guarantees bandwidth on the USB by scheduling one transfer per available frame. By comparison, Bulk or Burst transfers make use of ‘leftover’ bandwidth and may be ‘choked off’ if higher priority isochronous data transfers saturate the USB.

***Do not confuse ‘asynchronous USB’ with ‘Isochronous,’ an asynchronous USB system still uses isochronous mode to transfer audio.


So what’s USB’s possible ‘shortcomings’ in regards to audio transmission?

The USB is performing in isochronous transfer mode, it uses error checking but includes no re-transmission in case of Cyclic Redundancy Check (CRC) errors. Electrical noise on USB signals may cause CRC errors and thus data loss, as does poor signal integrity. These may lead to many potential causes of symptoms like audio signal distortion, artifacts (clicks/pops/crackling), and latency. In order to reach the full potential of a USB audio device, the USB signal quality should be excellent, and no CRC errors should occur.

Most modern USB devices (2009 or later) should be able to handle these USB audio duties with little trouble. The USB HEC for example supports both USB Audio Class protocols:


USB Audio Class 2 devices (2 [email protected]/768khz)
USB Audio Class 1 devices (2 [email protected]/96kHz)
Then to compare to SPDIF:

SPDIF protocol Coax (2 [email protected]/192kHz)
SPDIF protocol Optocal (2 [email protected]/96kHz)
So in the end, the advantage of the USB HEC over the S/PDIF input is the increased bitrate capability and as Doug mentioned the signal clock will be based off the DSP’s processor vs the source processor.

Do take note though, that the higher bitrates that the USB HEC can accept will ultimately by downsampled to 96kHz at which the DSP operates.


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> That stems from a school of thought that SPDIF was engineered for transferring audio where as USB was not specifically designed for that purpose.
> 
> USB owes its universal success to the ability to chain all kinds of devices, power them, provide them with a relatively high data transfer speed, backward compatibility as well as being an affordable implementation.
> 
> ...


Thank you for explaining, I was afraid I was so far off base the thread would die due to my stupidity. So it seems the USB HEC truly only offers convenience over a SPDIF converter. Of these marginal gains it seems like there is more to be had from the decreased noise of a SPDIF converter rather than using the USB and letting the DSP downsample and making use of the DSP's clock? What is the impact of the latter, can you explain more about how the signal is processed and why one clock may be beneficial vs. another?

Still I suppose it's all speculation until someone actually does the measurements, since we have lots of people who have A-B'd the USB and Optical inputs and I've read a few accounts on either side (though I don't know what DACs were used and how well they were integrated).


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> That stems from a school of thought that SPDIF was engineered for transferring audio where as USB was not specifically designed for that purpose.
> 
> USB owes its universal success to the ability to chain all kinds of devices, power them, provide them with a relatively high data transfer speed, backward compatibility as well as being an affordable implementation.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bnlcmbcar
I'm going to have to read your post again and Wikipedia some things before I get to the point where I really understand it and can explain it to someone else. 

But the take home message seems to be:
1) Helix's sound quality implementation of USB is as good as SPDIF, qualified by and adequate USB source,
2) as long as you have a more recent USB device like my Astell and Kern SP1000M Astell&Kern
3) although it would be nice if the A&K had a digital or coax optical output as well
4) and I should also get good results from my LG30+

Have I got that right?
Cheers
Sam


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Directly from an Audiotec Fischer engineer, so that speculation can be avoided.

"Here are the pros and cons of the two possibilities:

1. The first is to connect the player via electrical SPDIF signal (Coax) to the DSP ULTRA. This is always a great option and works flawless also for longer cables. Nevertheless there might be influences on the clock-precision of the signal but in a car this is usually not audible at all if this happens. So this is always a great option and would save some costs for the user as he only needs a coaxial signal cable. If the cable is long please make sure that the cable is out of good quality.
2. The second option would be to use our HEC HD-Audio USB-interface in the HEC Slot of the DSP ULTRA. This option is the most sophisticated option as we are using an asynchronous USB connection between the devices to transfer the decoded audio signal. *This is the best option* as long as the player supports USB Audio and the *audio signal will not be influences by any clock differences between the devices*, due to the cable or other interferences. The HEC module creates its own clock references and signals and also buffers the data, so that a real-time clock sent through the wire is not necessary.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

captainobvious said:


> Directly from an Audiotec Fischer engineer, so that speculation can be avoided.
> 
> "Here are the pros and cons of the two possibilities:
> 
> ...


This is basically what the Aus importer said to me yesterday based on discussions with AF. We concluded that since I'm limited to a modern A&K device built for music with USB output, I'm likely to get a better result using the USB module, as the chances of me jerry rigging a USB to SPDIF converter as good as AF are close to zero. It would be nice if I had a device with optical or coaxial out. But I don't. And the A&K is so good for so many other tasks, especially running an analogue signal into headphones or an amp, I'm never going to ditch it.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Oh and thanks everyone, this has been one of the most useful and interesting discussions I've had on the forum and there was no bickering


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## opekone (Mar 24, 2020)

Sam Spade said:


> This is basically what the Aus importer said to me yesterday based on discussions with AF. We concluded that since I'm limited to a modern A&K device built for music with USB output, I'm likely to get a better result using the USB module, as the chances of me jerry rigging a USB to SPDIF converter as good as AF are close to zero. It would be nice if I had a device with optical or coaxial out. But I don't. And the A&K is so good for so many other tasks, especially running an analogue signal into headphones or an amp, I'm never going to ditch it.


Seems like a really big leap to make. The overwhelming majority of Dacs don't take USB input with anywhere approaching the same quality as spdif. 

And no matter how much a company tells us that the product works perfectly what we know from testing on forums like audio science review is that the claims made by manufacturers are in almost all cases incorrect. 

We're arguing about pretty marginal difference is here in noise introduced but since a bunch of us are trying to buy the best products that are available and the differences in prices between these Dacs, daps, or converters is pretty inconsequential compared to the cost of the total system... it would be nice to know.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

I have recently done this exact comparison and this is my subjective findings. I compared numerous connection options and i definitely have a preference. I do not have the equipment to measure jitter, distortion, harmonics and other parameters so I cannot back up my findings that way but I stand by my pecking order as I have spent hours going back and forth and this is what I enjoyed listening to the most.

Processor - Ultra with USB HEC card installed.

Connections

USB - iPhone XS Max (lightening) with camera kit and iPad pro with USB type C either unit connected to the ultra no connection issues at all.
Toslink - iPhone XS Max with multi media adapter or iPad pro with Muti-media adapter to HDMI then a HDMI to Toslink converter. I could not find a better option at the time for a reasonable cost. Again no connection issues at all.
USB - iPhone XS Max (lightening) with camera kit and iPad pro with USB type C wired directly to the head unit Pioneer then line out to Ultra
BT wireless (Airplay) to head unit Pioneer then line out to Ultra - iPhone XS Max (lightening) with camera kit and iPad pro with USB type C
USB - Fiio M11 Pro (USB typec) wired directly to the Ultra HEC card
SPDIF Coax - Fiio M11 Pro wired directly to the Ultra Coax input


Music: blues, folk, rock, country, jazz, indie country and some electronic. In the end I did not prefer one interface for a specific type of music and another interface for a different type of music. The SQ was evident and maintained across all the types of music I listened to.

Ranked for best to worst based on my system, ymmv and with different equipment you may have a different outcome.

1. SPDIF Coax was the best for SQ in all aspects.
2. USB Fiio - was the second best input and was far better than the iPhone or iPad as a source
3. USB iPad or iPhone
4. Toslink iPad or iPhone
5. Wired USB to head unit
6. BT airplay

The Fiio was a very noticeable improvement as a transport with more space and air between instruments. Better detail, transparency and dynamics and the width of the sound stage improved. The Fiio has a rhythmic drive that the other devices did not. In the end it was much more enjoyable to listen to. And the Fiio is a sound staging monster just incredible.

The USB out of the Fiio was very good however with USB in general I noticed a glare and thinness to the sound. All of the detail was there but the body of the vocals and instruments was not quite right. The presentation came across analytical. The Fiio had by far the best USB performance of all the device I used.

SPDIF- the quality of the Fiio USB was maintained however the notes and instruments had the body I was missing. the glare is gone and the decay of notes is preserved. Dare I say the presentation had an analog feel as if the presentation was alive and much less analytical.

The iProducts sounded good but they are in a different class compared to a dedicated DAP player. For me there is no going back.

The interfaces through the head unit where definitely no where near as transparent as going straight to the Ultra digital input. Having one less layer of DA and A/D conversion can only help by going directly.

Just in case anybody thinks I am biased to COAX I am not. I walked in fully expecting USB to conquer all as technically it has a lot of advantages over the other transport protocols and mechanisms however I had to concede that the coax does a better job. USB has a convenience factor for sure and most devices support USB so it is still a good option but not the best for the best SQ only as a requirement.

As a teaser I did the same comparison in my house into my DAC and I also added a computer (USB) to the mix. I came to the same conclusion 

So that is my 0.5 cents take it for what it is worth!


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## SiW80 (Mar 13, 2019)

AudioGal said:


> I have recently done this exact comparison and this is my subjective findings. I compared numerous connection options and i definitely have a preference. I do not have the equipment to measure jitter, distortion, harmonics and other parameters so I cannot back up my findings that way but I stand by my pecking order as I have spent hours going back and forth and this is what I enjoyed listening to the most.
> 
> Processor - Ultra with USB HEC card installed.
> 
> ...


Interesting - which player app were the iDevices using? If the default player then it limits the output to 48kHz no matter what is connected to it. 

Also, did you try a WiFi Airplay receiver with toslink output?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

SiW80 said:


> Interesting - which player app were the iDevices using? If the default player then it limits the output to 48kHz no matter what is connected to it.
> 
> Also, did you try a WiFi Airplay receiver with toslink output?
> 
> ...



The 48 Khz limitation is typically an Android limitation not hardware but software/OS. iOS does not have this same limitation. Roon (home only) and other bit perfect players such as the Fiio music player bypass the andriod limitation and sources bit perfect data streams. One thing I did not mention is that sometimes depending on the device and implementation of the USB output they tend not to be bit perfect. The current release of the Fiio firmware I believe is bit perfect on USB now but I could be wrong. So you might try to confirm that with your device. The Coax output has always been bit perfect output with the Fiio.

I forgot to include the apps I used so thanks for pointing that out.

Apple devices :
Tidal both standard and MQA music files for all sources. Tidal on iOS does decode (unfold) MQA at least partially. I would see the various sample rates show up on my Director using USB. COAX does not show sample rate.

Onkyo HD player, VOX, itunes and one other I cannot remember playing my copied CD's, FLAC HD files all lossless formats.
Edit - I also used ROON when I was in my garage and the wifi connects to reach my ROON core.

Fiio:
Tidal and the naive Fiio music player for my non -Tidal content.
Edit - Also used ROON on this device when i could connect.

I did not try a WIFI with Toslink option. By then I moved onto USB.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

AudioGal said:


> The 48 Khz limitation is typically an Android limitation not hardware but software/OS. iOS does not have this same limitation. Roon (home only) and other bit perfect players such as the Fiio music player bypass the andriod limitation and sources bit perfect data streams. One thing I did not mention is that sometimes depending on the device and implementation of the USB output they tend not to be bit perfect. The current release of the Fiio firmware I believe is bit perfect on USB now but I could be wrong. So you might try to confirm that with your device. The Coax output has always been bit perfect output with the Fiio.
> 
> I forgot to include the apps I used so thanks for pointing that out.
> 
> ...


Audiogal does your fiio have a coax or toslink digital out or did you have to use usb and a secondary device to convert it to spdif? My A&K is limited to usb or analogue. So to use the spidf input on the ultra i have to convert it myself rather than trust helix's usb module implementation. I could use bluetooth/wifi from the AK to a different helix module but that doesnt seem ideal. Although the implementation of bluetooth on my burson conductor 3x preamp/headamp/dac at home is astonishing and almost indistinguishable from toslink


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## AudioGal (Oct 16, 2019)

The Fiio has Coax and USB and BT as outputs. I only used Toslink with my Apple devices.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

AudioGal said:


> The Fiio has Coax and USB and BT as outputs. I only used Toslink with my Apple devices.


Well audiogal your summary and experimentation is excellent and informative. Sadly I don't have a DAP with a SPDIF digital out.

When i auditioned the fiio and astell and kern it was way before i was considering car use. It was for running. my phones were getting way to big to run. The ak70 edged out the fiio cos i liked the sound signature better. It just connected more emotionally. That doesnt mean its more accurate. Just more smile causing for me. That was the AK70. Then recently the A&KSP1000M which is their equal top model was on clearance from the aussie distributor. $1750 down from $3500 and yes both those prices are insane even the half price one. Apparently people didn't like the blue colour which I think is gorgeous, just like the subtle mint of the AK70. Anyway the A&KSP1000M sounds completely unbelievable and it's so versatile but no SPDIF out. It's a truly hi end dual DAC delivering an amazing analogue output.

I've got no idea how good the USB output is. Still I suspect it's USB implementation will give me great results once the USB HEC module turns up. It is a dedicated music player from a hi end company. That should ensure a good result.

And given that my tuning ability is likely to be the weak link the source options might end up being irrelevant.


----------



## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

AudioGal said:


> I have recently done this exact comparison and this is my subjective findings. I compared numerous connection options and i definitely have a preference. I do not have the equipment to measure jitter, distortion, harmonics and other parameters so I cannot back up my findings that way but I stand by my pecking order as I have spent hours going back and forth and this is what I enjoyed listening to the most.
> 
> Processor - Ultra with USB HEC card installed.
> 
> ...


Very thorough and articulate. So theres digital and theres digital. And the storage and transmission affect how the sounstage and music quality factors change. I dont know why im so surprised. Over the last 30 years ive known and experienced different home cd transports change sound results. And toslink and coax change results. The best transport i think ive had is still my circa 1990 marantz cd80. Ive still got it on my 2nd system with upgraded burson low jitter clock, burson opamps replacing ic's in the output stage and new upgraded Philips TDA1541A S2 double crown d/a converter. Its 16 bit 4 times oversampling dinosaur but still sounds amazing. And the best error correction from damaged discs of any player ive owned. But the more digital formats storages and connection methods the more complex it gets. And were chasing ever diminishing improvements. And the analogue output stage is still more important than most people get. It seems espcially in car audio compared to homefi headfi and dapfi


----------



## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Bnlcmbcar said:


> If you get one let us know how well it works for you.
> 
> I’ve been using iFi iLink. It is a discontinued product but you can sometimes find them for sale. (I bought one off of eBay for $150 back in Feb).
> 
> iFi’s current model that can serve as a USB to SPDIF is the iFi nano iOne. That can convert Bluetooth or USB to SPDIF.


Hey Bnlcmbcar and @dumdum I'm using my A&K SP1000M to bluetooth to an iFi nano iOne and then SPDIF coaxial to the Helix Ultra. It sounds awesome. Far and away the best result yet. Oh and the Nano iOne has an optical output too. Haven't tried that yet. 

If I can work out how to power the iOne with the USB cable from the A&K plugged into it i'll see if wired is better than bluetooth. 

I'm still waiting for my Topping and Helix USB HEC module to arrive so I can compare. But i'm pretty happy at the moment.


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Glad you like the coax input 👍🏼 It’s the best I’ve found with idevices from a topping, and the idevice certainly doesn’t only support 48khz maximum, I devices are a bit perfect output

this can be achieved with an android device, but not natively... I’ve just been through this

The android auto layer upsamples everything to the maximum sample rate of whatever device is connected

I was using a tablet via coax into my ultra, this was fine as far as I knew... when due to my budget class in Emma I swapped to a dsp.3 and went to optical I got no sound... most odd, if I plugged my pc in I got sound as it was 44.1khz...

it turned out the android audio later upsamples everything (fiio also I think) which does zero to help quality and only ever has potentially negative effects, I then downloaded and paid for usb audio player pro which solved the issue, it takes control of the audio driver and makes the input sample rate the output sample rate (the topping has a display which gives sample rate info and 384khz is too great to function with optical into the dsp.3, the coax input seems to cope ok with 384khz for some reason, so the uapp driver making 96khz files play at this rate let’s it then work) however I use downloaded tidal files which uapp has a section for... but can’t use due to drm, and signal isn’t to clever where I live for streaming so I use downloaded content 99% of the time  one problem sorted another introduced

I have kind of settled on using a tablet built into the dash for sq competition with uapp via a D10 into the dsp optical in, and also a second topping D10 via an optical hec from my iPhone XR, that way I have two bit perfect sources with a budget limited setup for my 4000 euro limit, and also convenience of my iPhone with its downloaded content readily available 👍🏼

I am actively seeking out an android geek to take the android audio layer and effectively make it bit perfect without uapp taking over which meansI can use tidal with my 256gb sd card and play downloaded content without upsampling, I’ll let you know how I get on 👍🏼


----------



## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Glad you like the coax input 👍🏼 It’s the best I’ve found with idevices from a topping, and the idevice certainly doesn’t only support 48khz maximum, I devices are a bit perfect output
> 
> this can be achieved with an android device, but not natively... I’ve just been through this
> 
> ...


Hey dum dum, @AudioGal is using a Fiio into the digital coax of the Ultra and they are android and have a digital coax output? That was the best sound quality she got, see her notes earlier in the thread. She said it was way ahead of the iproducts. I don't know if all the Fiio's have a coax digital output, but this link shows the range in AU$ from $139 to $2400. FiiO

Currently the Astell and Kern entry level model is AU$1,200 and that has a USB out for digital I think.has an Optical Out (3.5mm) I think it comes out of the bottom of the 3.5mm headphone jack. Myifi iNano one has the same I think. ASTELL & KERN A&NORMA SR25 DIGITAL AUDIO PLAYER Astell & Kern A&norma SR25 Digital Audio Player

The previous Astell and Kern entry level model is on sale here for half price AU$600 its the SR15 but I think it only has USB digital out, not the optical. Astell & Kern A&norma SR15 Digital Audio Player [B-STOCK]

Meanwhile I have the the 3 year old AK70 entry level A&K which was $750 and just USB digital out. Via headphones I was comparing it to a Fiio that was $150 cheaper and it edged that out but the Fiio was still great sounding and a bargain at the price. I had no intention of using it for Carfi at the time. Now I also have one of the top end A&K's the SP1000M but that still only has USB digital out. It is an unbelievable device, it drives my planar Audeze LCD3's and makes my $100 Sennheiser running headphones sound like they are worth $300. And it's still small enough to go running with. But that's a pain in the car as the smaller screen makes it harder to adjust while driving. So I am hoping that it does the job via the USB HEC module and that is better than converting it to SPDIF and then into the Ultra. But I won't know that until I get the USB HEC module.

This review shows a range of DAPs at different prices and outputs. Based on AudioGals notes I'm starting to wonder if DAPs might end up beating apple devices and android phones as they are made specifically for music, and you can get them at a range of prices to fit into your competition cap and at least some models have optical or coax SPDIF outputs.





Best Digital Audio Players of 2022 | The Master Switch


See our guide to the best Digital Audio Players of 2022, with reviews of top DAPs from FiiO, Astell&Kern, Shanling, and more.




www.themasterswitch.com





But I do have an LGV30+ phone which is a great phone for music, it has a dedicated quad core music processor and it does MQA (which I'm still suspicious of). Anyway I can hook that up via USB to the iNano and see if how it compares to the A&K players.

I know you have had great results with the topping and my nano iOne sounds great but a DAP that avoids the need for an extra USB to SPDIF conversion device might have an inherent advantage, shorter signal path, less devices to power. And more cash to spend elsewhere in your setup possibly and still keep under the comp limit.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Glad you like the coax input 👍🏼 It’s the best I’ve found with idevices from a topping, and the idevice certainly doesn’t only support 48khz maximum, I devices are a bit perfect output
> 
> this can be achieved with an android device, but not natively... I’ve just been through this
> 
> ...


Hey you said "but can’t use due to drm," What is drm?


----------



## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Sam Spade said:


> Hey you said "but can’t use due to drm," What is drm?


dum dum my topping D10 is here. It doesn't have bluetooth or wifi does it? I just need to work out how to power it, I'm using android so i'm not sure a Iphone power kit will do the job.


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## SiW80 (Mar 13, 2019)

Sam Spade said:


> dum dum my topping D10 is here. It doesn't have bluetooth or wifi does it? I just need to work out how to power it, I'm using android so i'm not sure a Iphone power kit will do the job.


No Bluetooth etc - just straight usb input. 

It should be powered from the usb connected device but if the device can’t power it try a USB hub. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nirschl (Apr 30, 2009)

I’d recommend a 12v hub solution rather than your phone for overall better performance. I’ve got a home made one in mine.


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## EmoJackson (Aug 13, 2018)

Do any of the HEC's give the ability to control the DAP via the director?


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## dobslob (Sep 19, 2011)

EmoJackson said:


> Do any of the HEC's give the ability to control the DAP via the director?


Only if connected via Bluetooth. Then you have some basic controls.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

EmoJackson said:


> Do any of the HEC's give the ability to control the DAP via the director?


I'm pretty sure the director is attached to the DSP by a cable


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Sam Spade said:


> Hey you said "but can’t use due to drm," What is drm?


Digital rights management, basically I presume tidal encrypt there own data so you can’t just whip it off and put it on any device as an mp3, and to keep the data safe they don’t release the encryption key to the makers of uapp 👍🏼
On the fiio, it may be that using the internal digital output fiio have made it so it is bit perfect, whereas if it goes through the android audio later when used via usb into say a dragonfly red dac the sample rate when using a fiio via usb is not the same as the original files sample rate... it was tonny Evers who tested it, the dragonfly gives an indication of bitrate when converting digital to analogue, and in his case it was a different colour when playing a 44.1khz flac file vs an iPhone which is bit perfect so will output a 44.1khz, maybe it only effects a fiio via usb digital output


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Sam Spade said:


> I'm pretty sure the director is attached to the DSP by a cable


I think you missed the question, he wants to know if the director will control a dap when connected to a dsp...

answer is no unless via bt, which is maybe in theory doable...

allow me to explain... my phone connects to my pioneer headunit bluetooth, I also connect to the topping via a lead... so using digital output I can set the stereo to Bluetooth and control track back and forth with the hu and also as it happens steering wheel controls... so perhaps if you have a bit hec it default connects to you can also have audio routed via usb digital in the iPhone and also connect the hec, but use the hec for control via the directors controls also... 😎


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

Yes I missed the question. derrrrr 

Re Tidal, it's great. But there is a ****load of debate about MQA. I'm currently on the side of the fence that MQA (Master Quality Authenticated) is crap. And I have a LGv30+ and a astell and Kern AKSP1000M that both have the hardware to exploit MQA. But that's an opinion unsupported by casual listening, nothing structured. But listening has been on AU$4000 Audeze LCD3's and a AU$3000 Burson Conductor3x Reference head amp which is a seriously good and revealing combination. And still I know with tidal I'll get CD quality reliably so that's ok, I'm happy.


----------



## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Sam Spade said:


> Yes I missed the question. derrrrr
> 
> Re Tidal, it's great. But there is a ****load of debate about MQA. I'm currently on the side of the fence that MQA (Master Quality Authenticated) is crap. And I have a LGv30+ and a astell and Kern AKSP1000M that both have the hardware to exploit MQA. But that's an opinion unsupported by casual listening, nothing structured. But listening has been on AU$4000 Audeze LCD3's and a AU$3000 Burson Conductor3x Reference head amp which is a seriously good and revealing combination. And still I know with tidal I'll get CD quality reliably so that's ok, I'm happy.


Same here... I’ve not heard an album that’s swayed me one way or another (I’ve downloaded two versions of the same album and listed between the two...) I am used to critical listening but don’t hear differences if I’m honest... but as you say, hifi is always a good quality album...


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## EmoJackson (Aug 13, 2018)

dumdum said:


> I think you missed the question, he wants to know if the director will control a dap when connected to a dsp...
> 
> answer is no unless via bt, which is maybe in theory doable...
> 
> allow me to explain... my phone connects to my pioneer headunit bluetooth, I also connect to the topping via a lead... so using digital output I can set the stereo to Bluetooth and control track back and forth with the hu and also as it happens steering wheel controls... so perhaps if you have a bit hec it default connects to you can also have audio routed via usb digital in the iPhone and also connect the hec, but use the hec for control via the directors controls also... 😎


This is kinda what I'm asking about. I was hoping that I would be able to read track information and change tracks via the Helix Director. 

Is there switchability between the two Toslink Inputs on the DSP Pro?


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

EmoJackson said:


> This is kinda what I'm asking about. I was hoping that I would be able to read track information and change tracks via the Helix Director.
> 
> Is there switchability between the two Toslink Inputs on the DSP Pro?


It may just work, but needs someone with a bt hec and a topping to confirm... I will try it when I see our sq team member who has my old dsp pro 2 with bt hec and also a topping D10, but I don’t think it will be for a while due to corona restrictions in the U.K. still


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> the ifi is used by my friend in his install, he has 10 grands worth of audiowave amps in his boot, dyn midbass, scan 12m, dls Nordic’s sub, in other words a very high resolution system, he bought it years ago before th topping was about, we will be trying a swap and change in the Netherlands once the lockdown is done, I suspect there will be little to no difference between them and a clarion CD player via optical with our competition cd vs Apple and android sources via the usb to spdif converters but we have to see 👍🏼


Did you work out if the optical out from the clarion is as good as the non-headunit sources? If it was, and if you can plug a DAP or tablet or phone into it too, and FLAC files are just as good the functionality of a head unit that doesn't compromise SQ might be worth considering.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Sam Spade said:


> Did you work out if the optical out from the clarion is as good as the non-headunit sources? If it was, and if you can plug a DAP or tablet or phone into it too, and FLAC files are just as good the functionality of a head unit that doesn't compromise SQ might be worth considering.


Tonny Evers from Holland (multi time Netherlands Emma master champion) has done extensive testing with a topping d10 vs a clarion hxd3 (I was incorrect, he uses it via analogue, uprated caps, op amps and a big list of other things he told me of) that’s heavily modified and exceptional as a competition cd source, he has a topping in his car now and is toying with binning the CD player off for good, he doesn’t take his sq lightly, make of that what you will


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Ps I have a d10s now 😉


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Tonny Evers from Holland (multi time Netherlands Emma master champion) has done extensive testing with a topping d10 vs a clarion hxd3 (I was incorrect, he uses it via analogue, uprated caps, op amps and a big list of other things he told me of) that’s heavily modified and exceptional as a competition cd source, he has a topping in his car now and is toying with binning the CD player off for good, he doesn’t take his sq lightly, make of that what you will


I so wish someone (audiotech fischer) would make head units that have DAB+, AM, FM, run streaming services, play CDs, accept FLAC files, do hands free, seamlessly integrate with DSPs and don't have all the A/D and D/A and DSP duplication you get now between head units and DSPs. And Integrated with steering wheel controls. And don't compromise SQ. 

Like a dumb terminal attached to a mainframe. 

The director is part way there. It could go all the way.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Ps I have a d10s now 😉


is the D10s better? My D10 is still in it's box I haven't even compared it to the ifi nano ione yet! 

It was covid. I ordered the D10 just at the wrong time. Got told it was then going to take 3 months due to covid. Could get an ifi overnight. Haven't got around to comparing the two yet. Will soon.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Tonny Evers from Holland (multi time Netherlands Emma master champion) has done extensive testing with a topping d10 vs a clarion hxd3 (I was incorrect, he uses it via analogue, uprated caps, op amps and a big list of other things he told me of) that’s heavily modified and exceptional as a competition cd source, he has a topping in his car now and is toying with binning the CD player off for good, he doesn’t take his sq lightly, make of that what you will


I have upspecced a Marantz CD80 with all that and more. It is great and sounds awesome running straight into an Amp. But it would be a waste running that into a home theater DSP, i'd just run the digital optical or coaxial out into the home theater DSP

But it doesn't matter how much you upgrade a car head unit in the analogue domain it's always going to send an analogue signal to the DSP. His clarion would sound awesome running straight into an amp. But into a DSP?


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Sam Spade said:


> I have upspecced a Marantz CD80 with all that and more. It is great and sounds awesome running straight into an Amp. But it would be a waste running that into a home theater DSP, i'd just run the digital optical or coaxial out into the home theater DSP
> 
> But it doesn't matter how much you upgrade a car head unit in the analogue domain it's always going to send an analogue signal to the DSP. His clarion would sound awesome running straight into an amp. But into a DSP?


He has tried lots of sources over the years, the mosconi 8to12 aerospace has a very good adc and it does better the digital input from the clarion which it also has (he can swap back and forth being an analogue and digital source, so comparison is easy)


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Sam Spade said:


> is the D10s better? My D10 is still in it's box I haven't even compared it to the ifi nano ione yet!
> 
> It was covid. I ordered the D10 just at the wrong time. Got told it was then going to take 3 months due to covid. Could get an ifi overnight. Haven't got around to comparing the two yet. Will soon.


The D10s via analogue measures better... it’s now in the top tier of the ASR dacs, I have yet to try it as a dac vs as a digital bridge, but I can do it relatively easily still, albeit not as easily as with a director, the digital output is very similar, but being unable to switch back and forth in a split second like I could I couldn’t say which is better or not 🤷🏽‍♂️


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

Great thread and lots of excellent info.

I’m running:

Source: iPad Mini 4 128gb Cellular with official Apple CCK3

DSP: Helix DSP Pro MK2 with the HEC-USB module.

Same as mentioned on here and other related threads, it has the charging issue with using the official Apple CCK3 where it stops charging soon as you connect it to the HEC-USB.

I have done what others have suggested by using aftermarket Camera Connection Kit adapters.

Maybe it’s me but the official Apple CCK3 sounds better. I know it’s just USB and shouldn’t do but I can hear the differences.

Not the mention the quality of them are quite poor with regards to the lightning cable and adapter itself. I’ve tried around 4/5 different ones.


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

As DumDum suggested on here and to me to use the Topping D10, which I’ve received the other day but the upgrade D10s version.

I’m running it via Coaxial to the DSP MK2 and sounds great, however the volume is quite a bit lower then HEC-USB.

I cannot find way to increase the Coaxial Digital Input level from the Helix DSP software and It’s the latest version.
It’s Maxed out on the URC controller and also the iPad. Any suggestions? Cheers


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## Envyrao (Mar 19, 2020)

mitesh.soni said:


> As DumDum suggested on here and to me to use the Topping D10, which I’ve received the other day but the upgrade D10s version.
> 
> I’m running it via Coaxial to the DSP MK2 and sounds great, however the volume is quite a bit lower then HEC-USB.
> 
> ...


Yes its true that HEC USB sounds louder than the Coaxial. Try to use the Director, it will give you input level change for both Digital Coaxial & HEC USB Both Separately.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

You can adjust the digital volume in the helix software in the input routing matrix section, you need to enable it in the DCM section, you can then adjust it so the level is the same as other sources, what your experiencing is a gain setting issue 👍🏼


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Envyrao said:


> Yes its true that HEC USB sounds louder than the Coaxial. Try to use the Director, it will give you input level change for both Digital Coaxial & HEC USB Both Separately.


If the system is set up for good clean levels of output with the urc.3 he then either restricts the hec by turning its unique level down on the director, but then the gain structure is off, or he adjusts the digital input level up in the helix software 👍🏼


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

Envyrao said:


> Yes its true that HEC USB sounds louder than the Coaxial. Try to use the Director, it will give you input level change for both Digital Coaxial & HEC USB Both Separately.


I thought so, I don’t have the Director as I just use the URC.3 controller which does the same job with regards to volume control.


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

dumdum said:


> You can adjust the digital volume in the helix software in the input routing matrix section, you need to enable it in the DCM section, you can then adjust it so the level is the same as other sources, what your experiencing is a gain setting issue 👍🏼


Cheers mate, I’ll look into that, seems it must be disabled that function as I couldn’t see the Digital Level adjustment option the other day.

I’ll let everyone know what I think of the Topping D10s via Coax to Helix DSP Pro MK2 vs the HEC-USB


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

mitesh.soni said:


> Cheers mate, I’ll look into that, seems it must be disabled that function as I couldn’t see the Digital Level adjustment option the other day.
> 
> I’ll let everyone know what I think of the Topping D10s via Coax to Helix DSP Pro MK2 vs the HEC-USB


I will also add that unless you need ten outputs a dsp.3 is a far better sounding processor than the pro 2 with more features to boot

The d10s will win that battle, but try it by optical once the coax has beaten the hec into submission 😉

Your not from nottingham way by any chance are you?


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

dumdum said:


> I will also add that unless you need ten outputs a dsp.3 is a far better sounding processor than the pro 2 with more features to boot
> 
> The d10s will win that battle, but try it by optical once the coax has beaten the hec into submission 😉
> 
> Your not from nottingham way by any chance are you?


Cheers, love to upgrade, 😄 but having spent quite a bit on DSP Pro MK2 and current setup I’ll try see how it goes as I’m always chopping and changing.

You’re right I only use 6 channels possibly 8 soon.

Currently Running
JL HD600/4

RAM 2A Widebands
RAM 6A Mids
JL HD750
- 10W7 Sub

I’ll try optical too, soon as I plugged in the D10s I noticed a improvement.

I live in Derby, not too far away. Love to hear your setup, your looks very good


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

mitesh.soni said:


> Cheers, love to upgrade, 😄 but having spent quite a bit on DSP Pro MK2 and current setup I’ll try see how it goes as I’m always chopping and changing.
> 
> You’re right I only use 6 channels possibly 8 soon.
> 
> ...


Did gavin have a hand in your install at subtronix? He had a customer with a heavily customised nexus 7 and I spied yours... coincidence if not... edit... just asked and that was an MX5 👍🏼


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

No, I did the full install myself and Peter from PSSound tuned it for me (not something I’m good at)

Originally had the Nexus 7 (modified too hardware and software) until a few months ago when it started playing up so switched over to the iPad Mini.

Happy to let you listen to my setup mate.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

mitesh.soni said:


> No, I did the full install myself and Peter from PSSound tuned it for me (not something I’m good at)
> 
> Originally had the Nexus 7 (modified too hardware and software) until a few months ago when it started playing up so switched over to the iPad Mini.
> 
> Happy to let you listen to my setup mate.


I know Peter well 👍🏼 I have an iPad mini 5 256gb for tidal in my corsa currently 🙂


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

dumdum said:


> I know Peter well 👍🏼 I have an iPad mini 5 256gb for tidal in my corsa currently 🙂


Top bloke Peter, helped me a lot, his Honda best I've heard. I will probably run out of 128gb soon, maybe upgrade to the Mini 5 256gb too.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

mitesh.soni said:


> Top bloke Peter, helped me a lot, his Honda best I've heard. I will probably run out of 128gb soon, maybe upgrade to the Mini 5 256gb too.


Yeah his tweeters cost half of my complete install lol and he is good at what he does... I’d hope it sounds good 😂


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

dumdum said:


> Yeah his tweeters cost half of my complete install lol and he is good at what he does... I’d hope it sounds good 😂


😆tell me about, I can never keep up with his install.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

mitesh.soni said:


> 😆tell me about, I can never keep up with his install.


His install doesn’t change that regularly, he tends to just do bits in bits and bobs... but rare to change more than twice a year... he doesn’t get time with customers stuff I think


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

dumdum said:


> His install doesn’t change that regularly, he tends to just do bits in bits and bobs... but rare to change more than twice a year... he doesn’t get time with customers stuff I think


That's true it's only parts of his install he does. Quick question, which Lightning extension cable do you use? as you stated the CCK3 connector is very bulky and rather not damage the lightning port.


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

mitesh.soni said:


> That's true it's only parts of his install he does. Quick question, which Lightning extension cable do you use? as you stated the CCK3 connector is very bulky and rather not damage the lightning port.


264772000089 eBay item no. Z-cellulerize 1m extensions

I have used these in several installs with iPhones and they work... they may or may not work with an iPad, I ended up with a bigger amperage charger and also routing a slot so the cck.3 fitted behind the iPad in my holder build, it didn’t like working off the extension, but may have been down to current capacity or the extension lead as I just did both at the same time unfortunately


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

dumdum said:


> 264772000089 eBay item no. Z-cellulerize 1m extensions
> 
> I have used these in several installs with iPhones and they work... they may or may not work with an iPad, I ended up with a bigger amperage charger and also routing a slot so the cck.3 fitted behind the iPad in my holder build, it didn’t like working off the extension, but may have been down to current capacity or the extension lead as I just did both at the same time unfortunately


Cheers mate, I'll give that a go, I'm running a 3amp hard wired USB charger behind the dash just in case.


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## Petererc (Dec 28, 2016)

For those of you running iPads as source, is there an app that puts the tablet is deep sleep, say like Timur’s kernel for droid. Do you remove the iPad after each trip, or leave it in 130+ degree vehicle. Has anyone done a battery mod to hardwire the tablet? Not trying to derail a thread all ready off the track, but there is alot of good info in this thread and this pertains. 
I have a Nexus 7, that i renoved because I had not so much good luck using cheap dacs. Bluetooth to dsp sounded way better than crappy dacs with optical out. I now have a D10s, so I am at the point where I jump out of the cloud ditch my phone and go android or stay with apple and get a maxi pad.


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

Petererc said:


> For those of you running iPads as source, is there an app that puts the tablet is deep sleep, say like Timur’s kernel for droid. Do you remove the iPad after each trip, or leave it in 130+ degree vehicle. Has anyone done a battery mod to hardwire the tablet? Not trying to derail a thread all ready off the track, but there is alot of good info in this thread and this pertains.
> I have a Nexus 7, that i renoved because I had not so much good luck using cheap dacs. Bluetooth to dsp sounded way better than crappy dacs with optical out. I now have a D10s, so I am at the point where I jump out of the cloud ditch my phone and go android or stay with apple and get a maxi pad.


I run an Apple repair business so regularly repair all Apple products.

My iPad is fixed behind the dash and is permanent.

I’ve heavily hardware modded my iPad Mini.
I’ve ran the home and power button cables outside so if you ever need to do a hard reboot you can.

iPads have a magnetic sleep sensor for smart cases where it blanks out the screen for Sleep, so I’ve tapped into this sensor inside the iPad, basically soon as the sensor receives a GROUND it puts the iPad to sleep.

I have then used a relay so soon as the ignition is on/off it breaks/connects the GROUND to the sleep/wake sensor.

I’ve too come from a Nexus 7 2013 and ran without the battery for years.

Regarding running the iPad without the battery, it’s not that simple. The battery circuit board on the battery requires readings which only the battery can give including gas levels, if it doesn’t see them it reboots randomly.
I did run without a battery for few months, however it was so tempermental and kept rebooting.

I’ve only just installed the iPad Mini within the dash and it’s pretty cold so next summer I will place the battery inside a fireproof/heat resistant wallet and extend the wires inside the iPad, therefore reducing the risk of fire/explosion.

Happy to give help on this or can do these mod for people in the UK.


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

Personally I just don’t like android, maybe I’m biased because of my background however for car audio iPhones/iPads just work better.

As mentioned by DumDum Androids oversample your music unless you dedicated
HI-Res audio app, on iOS it doesn’t do this.

Not to mention if you run and iPad and you have iPhone it will answer and make calls on the iPad


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## Petererc (Dec 28, 2016)

Thanks, you said alot, another question is what gen ipad is the best bang for the buck. For me to crack open a 500+ gen would make my life very miserable. Now with a gently used $ 100+- range ipad, domestic tranquility would not be an issue. 
As of now I am sold on the iPad even the gen 5 is considerably cheaper than a fancy name brand head unit. 
The battery is still a concern as S. Florida is hell on car batteries alone. 
One more question this post, can you send a digital signal out of the lighting port to D10s and simultaneously be able to use wireless Carplay? 
If so that would help solve the battery issue and use phone for storage.
Thanks for your time


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

Petererc said:


> Thanks, you said alot, another question is what gen ipad is the best bang for the buck. For me to crack open a 500+ gen would make my life very miserable. Now with a gently used $ 100+- range ipad, domestic tranquility would not be an issue.
> As of now I am sold on the iPad even the gen 5 is considerably cheaper than a fancy name brand head unit.
> The battery is still a concern as S. Florida is hell on car batteries alone.
> One more question this post, can you send a digital signal out of the lighting port to D10s and simultaneously be able to use wireless Carplay?
> ...


Yes I’d worry about the iPad too in that heat if permanently fixed in.

Regards to the which iPad model. I used an iPad Mini 4 128gb cellular (for data & GPS) as the wifi models don’t have GPS built in. Used these can be had on eBay for about £220/$280
Old iPads don’t have as much ram and not very snappy
From my knowledge no you cannot use CarPlay at the same time as outputting the iPhone through a digital source such as the Topping D10 etc, I maybe wrong so someone can check as I don’t own a CarPlay unit


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## Petererc (Dec 28, 2016)

Once again great info, thanks


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## isot (Aug 21, 2020)

So now which one is better?
Iphone usb -> hec usb directly
Or
Iphone usb -> topping d10 usb to optical -> helix dsp optical
Or
Iphone usb -> topping d10 usb to coax rca -> helix dsp rca

i believe the first one should be better since avoiding extra conversion?


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## mitesh.soni (Aug 24, 2013)

isot said:


> So now which one is better?
> Iphone usb -> hec usb directly
> Or
> Iphone usb -> topping d10 usb to optical -> helix dsp optical
> ...


As mentioned before until Apple / Helix fix the charging issue with using the Genuine Apple Camera Connection Kit (CCK) USB 3 adapter. The iPhone/iPad to HEC-USB is not an option. You can use an aftermarket CCK adapter then HEC-USB will work and charge the iPad/iPhone

DumDum mentioned and tested and I have too, the HEC-USB sounds no where near as good as the Topping D10 or D10s using Coax/Optical out the DSP. It’s very flat sounding adapter when compared to the Topping, similar to Bluetooth quality.

I believe it’s misunderstood how the HEC-USB is connected and the amount of chains. It’s still a USB to SPDIF adapter however it’s connected inside the Helix DSP via traces on the motherboard rather than Coax/Optical connection. So adding Topping D10/D10s it’s the same.

Now, people will argue how can it sound better as they both output digital. I’ve tested over 20 odd USB to SPDIF Adapters, and every single one gives different sound. Some good, some bad and details missing from songs. Now obviously you’ll need to have good setup and ears to hear the differences.

So I’d recommend iPad/iPhone —>Genuine Apple CCK USB 3 —> Topping D10/D10s—> DSP via Coaxial/Optical cable,

This setup will put any headunit to DSP to shame, there is no contest. No to mentioned endless music Apps support Hi-RES audio


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## isot (Aug 21, 2020)

mitesh.soni said:


> As mentioned before until Apple / Helix fix the charging issue with using the Genuine Apple Camera Connection Kit (CCK) USB 3 adapter. The iPhone/iPad to HEC-USB is not an option. You can use an aftermarket CCK adapter then HEC-USB will work and charge the iPad/iPhone
> 
> DumDum mentioned and tested and I have too, the HEC-USB sounds no where near as good as the Topping D10 or D10s using Coax/Optical out the DSP. It’s very flat sounding adapter when compared to the Topping, similar to Bluetooth quality.
> 
> ...


Thank you Mitesh for clarification
My current setup is;
Iphone > lightning extenstion cable > aftermarket cck adapter > hifi quality usb cable > topping d10s > optical cable > dsp amplifier

The aftermarket cck adapter is also fed by usb lightning/usb power (but it does not charge the phone, i think i need to replace with the geninue one)
The topping dac end of the usb cable is also fed by power with hifi grade external power supply usb- cable (this does not charge the phone either but powers the dac and prevents iphone battery drain). Here it is
USB-B adapter cable for external USB-A power supply - Audiophonics

i did not try another setup but i am not happy with the quality , maybe sth wrong in other parts like eq settings

do you think is it worth to try rca output of topping d10s instead of spdif optical?

On the other hand, i am worried about sound quality for any usb cable transmitting audio signal and power at the same time. How does electrical power signals do not spoil audio signals in the same cable? What is the technical point behind?
most of you will disagree; local helix dealer here claims that charging function is intentionally off for hec usb module, in order to achieve better sound quality


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

isot said:


> Thank you Mitesh for clarification
> My current setup is;
> Iphone > lightning extenstion cable > aftermarket cck adapter > hifi quality usb cable > topping d10s > optical cable > dsp amplifier
> 
> ...


Rca from the topping is definitely not as nice as optical, I have only tried this with a d10... the d10s in theory is slightly better... but I still use coax or optical to my helix ultra


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

My astell & kern SP1000M bluetooth through ifi nano USB to SPDIF coax into ultra smashes my top end kenwood head unit. I need to get off my bum and compare that with my LGV30 and Samsung galaxy note. But using a dedicated music player avoids doubling up your phone. Other users have said AK and other music players get better results than phone. I've got a topping d10 to compare with ifi nano but no bluetooth so i need an android charging solution. I also have a USB HEC module. Other people have rated fiio players ahead of apple via both USB HEC and directly into coax or optical SPDIF. I do respect dum dums opinions though. But there are one or two other forum members i respect as much on this forum who have a different opinion. I'm going to have to try myself to decide. I'm active in the headfi community and topping headamps and dacs are very highly regarded as a lower cost option especially the 90 series to drive very expensive and difficult to drive headphones like Audeze LCD4 planars which are 200 ohms impedence and over $4000US from memory. I'm using a US$3K sparko head amp and a US$1800 chord qutest dac in my home office and a US$2150 burson conductor headamp/preamp/dac in my main system. Ive been a bit distracted lately from carfi to headfi. But ive got some helix amps and brax speakers to install in my car.......

Im a bit hesitant i park on the street its an ok suburb but my current install is stealth it looks OEM. Its all hertz with a helix ultra DSP...the brax wont be stleath. It will optomise SQ. I need a good insurance company.


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> Rca from the topping is definitely not as nice as optical, I have only tried this with a d10... the d10s in theory is slightly better... but I still use coax or optical to my helix ultra


Digital will always be better


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Sam Spade said:


> Digital will always be better


It depends who you talk too... some people like vinyl 🙈🙈


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> It depends who you talk too... some people like vinyl 🙈🙈


Let me qualify that. Digital direct into a DSP rather than a/d and d/a via some other device like a head unit should always been better


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

isot said:


> On the other hand, i am worried about sound quality for any usb cable transmitting audio signal and power at the same time. How does electrical power signals do not spoil audio signals in the same cable? What is the technical point behind?
> most of you will disagree; local helix dealer here claims that charging function is intentionally off for hec usb module, in order to achieve better sound quality


Your not transmitting audio (analog) its a digital pulse code modulated stream of data. The HEC USB module won't charge your phone cause the DSP wasn't designed to be a power supply for charging phones. That's what the cck3 or a USB hub is for...

Ideally, theoretically, the Topping or Douk or iFi or whoever your bridge is made by shouldn't have any effect on the audio signal since it's only converting from electrical to optical. The Helix is the DAC and the DAC in your bridge doesn't (shouldn't?) Be a part of the equation - BUT - the chipset used may or may not pass the original bit perfect original data to the optical output before passing through the DAC in which case there's a definite possibility of introducing artifacts. 

Personally I've had better luck using a powered USB hub than the cck3 but then it's necessary for Android so using both it becomes a moot point. Finding a suitable power supply becomes the issue if you want to power everything from one source since most power points (cigarette lighter plugs) have a 10 amp fuse so they can't supply more than 50 Watts.

D10S is supposedly USB 2.0 which means it would top out at 7.5 Watts but for me by the time added 2 phones and an external HD mine was over what the Verizon USB C power adapter could supply. 

Anyway, to address my own concerns about theft and cost I switched to the Douk Audio U2 for daily use. Easier to hide, uses less power (no DAC just bridge) and for me no audible difference while driving. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Holmz (Jul 12, 2017)

dumdum said:


> It depends who you talk too... some people like vinyl 🙈🙈


And when they are alone that also the divinyls?


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## daloudin (Nov 2, 2020)

Holmz said:


> And when they are alone that also the divinyls?


Nope - Talking Heads... 🤘


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

Sam Spade said:


> Let me qualify that. Digital direct into a DSP rather than a/d and d/a via some other device like a head unit should always been better


I know... it was a small joke about analogue folks


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> I know... it was a small joke about analogue folks


Divinyls are an epic aussie band. Chrissy Amphlet sadly died a few years ago. She was pivotal in making women acceptable as rock singers front of stage in OZ. Their stuff is worth looking up. Esp "boys in town" "science fiction" and "i touch myself"


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## Sam Spade (Mar 16, 2020)

dumdum said:


> I know... it was a small joke about analogue folks


Ps i find vinyl good for generating white noise samples if you leave it going at the end of a side. Any way you can turn them pink too


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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

In your first example - the D10s is (best) used as a USB bridge - to convert the USB signal to SPDIF, which then goes tot he Helix. (I have this setup).
If you have a source with SPDIF outputs (coax or optical), just go straight into the Helix with those.


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## Bikey (May 15, 2021)

Based on what I've read, the D10s does a better USB to SPDIF conversion. It also has a lot of related capabilities (essentially can handle any format). And it is very inexpensive. And it tests extremely well.


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## SiW80 (Mar 13, 2019)

The D10 has a better XMOS usb chip and DAC than the Helix usb HEC. Seems Helix didn’t invest much in it as never went for Apple approval which was a shame. 

Plus you can use optical or coax output. 

There are similar cheaper USB to digital converters available. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

gammon said:


> Interesting! I'll probably run with a tablet and the topping. Is there any place where I can get more info on the Helix HEC USB inadequacies or them appealing to Apple?


I think There is a long thread about it in the tablet forum.


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## isot (Aug 21, 2020)

Dears,
With the topping D10s + CCK3 configuration, which one do you think better ;
1. Place topping D10s around dashboard, short USB cable, long optical SPDIF cable from dashboard up to trunk where dsp amplifier is placed
2. Place topping D10s in the trunk, long USB cable from dashboard to trunk, short optical SPDIF cable between D10s and dsp amplifier

I have the 2nd option since there is no good place to locate D10s around dashboard
but curious if 1st option is audibly better


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

I have this very same question


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

It would be similar, although I went for option a as usb has a maximum working length, optical or coax is way longer, so I made short usb and long coax and optical lead

don’t think I’d notice a difference though if I did swap


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

SkizeR said:


> HEC Audiostage. Not sure where you heard 3-6 months


It’s still not out two yrs later, any news on it as yet?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

dumdum said:


> It’s still not out two yrs later, any news on it as yet?


Not sure. I remember it needed revisions due to overheating after apparently approximately 8 hours of use.


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## Booom (9 mo ago)

Hi, I'm new to this forum.
Very interesting debate, I share the same dilemmas (from music sources to cables...  ).
I have Helix DSP Ultra, also (+ Helix Conductor remote + 2x Mosconi PRO 4/10 amp + 1x Mosconi PRO 1/10 sub amp + JL 12w6v3 D4 sub + Focal ps 165 F3E front speakers + Focal P 165 30v rear speakers).
Besides from running hi inputs from factory Bose head unit (+ Bose processor) in my Renault Espace (original Bose 12 speaker system was - poor), my main music source has been .... *Chromecast Audio's optical output. Mostly using Tidal. *Works flawlessly. 
Sound is impressive in many ways (but all in all, sound is somehow - analytical, as some say, or by my opinion, not enough musical, and far from magical). However, we (I guess all of us) want more, and more... 
Since I haven't heard other cars with 'better' custom audio systems (we must be a dying breed), I cannot make any comparisons - and of course, I wonder, if there are some reserves (and how many) in SQ because of Chromecast audio.

Prior to Helix Ultra DSP, I had Musway M12 (12 ch amp + 16 ch DSP) installed (without one Mosconi PRO 4/10 amp) for a month or two, and the music coming from Focal tweeters and mids (going from Chromecast audio to Musway M12 ch 13 and 14 rca out to Mosconi PRO 4/10) was just - *magical*. *Never heard anything close to this magic at 47 years of my life.* I 'upgraded' to Helix (midbass/bass and sub on Musway were not on the same lever as mids and twitters, far from it - but I also never had or gave it a chance to completely test it - I went for a suddenly offered swap), wanting more of this 'drug', *and... lost that magic. *
With Helix DSP, everything is just plain correct now. So I'm *trying to recreate that magic *in Helix. Maybe it has poor SQ optical input compared to Musway M12... Maybe something else.

I am receiving Topping D10s tomorrow. To try it out with my Samsung Note 20 Ultra + UAPP. Also considering DAPs (Fiio M11 plus II or M11 LTD with coaxial out (not M17 so far, I don't think it is worth the money for only using it as coaxial out component) or some of the higher series Astell Kern, but which have no digital outputs (your thoughts?)).
I also play to try out my Marantz HD DAC-1 (very nice reviews worldwide) connected to Helix RCA in - I hope I don't cause short circuit somewhere in the system (it will be plugged at home, to house 220V, since it is a home audio product ?). 

Concerning Helix Audiostage 'project' (wifi, not BT wireless technology), an answer from Helix (two weeks ago):
_...Compatibility, ease of use, codec and sound quality depend on the current software and firmware of the mobile device. This can change at any time due to current updates, so unfortunately we cannot make any reliable statements in this regard. In principle, data transmission via USB is of very high quality and is recommended.
*No audio module with WiFi data transmission is planned for this year*_*....*

My guess is, that there must be some licences or patents involved, since Chromecat Audio works flawlessly and is probably (my guess) technologically very simple device.

Hoping for some feedback .

That Musway company I mentioned, ... it is fairly new, not may reviews, very accessible here in Europe (Musway is obviously a part of Audio Design Audio Design - The Home Of Car Audio, Navigation And More ... giant, so there probably should be no problems concerning reliability/warranty). But will probaby cost much more in USA. Receiving amazing reviews at www.hifitest.de which is a reference in Europe. It still has some minor glitches (less settings as Helix DSP), but by my opinion/experience, a very high audiophile potential.
I just wish I gave it more time to test it (take a look at its M12, Tune12 and Eight100 models, if you have time or are interested). But not in a mood to tear down my system right now. Just to let you know, I had an ability to fully tune/set/control DSP from phone or tablet via BT with Musway BTA2 module - no cables or other restrictions as with Helix. Just amazing user experience.


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## Booom (9 mo ago)

Just an UPDATE:
Samsung Note 20 Ultra + ToppingD10s + UAPP (with MQA upgrade) work flawlessly together. Didn't have time to try out coaxial output yet, but already optical output is giving amazing results (also with Tidal MQA playing from inside UAPP app). Still not that magical as Chromecast Audio + Musway M12 played above 550 Hz (but I still have many tuning options to try out), but very close, AND far better all together and especially below 550 Hz. 
Not considering Fiio or Astell Kern DAP, anymore (at least, for now - we know, how it goes , if that tells you something.
Topping D10s really is amazing, from sound to the box itself.


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## brandom79 (Apr 10, 2020)

Can anyone recommend a good coaxial digital cable? I may need one to go the full length of my minivan. Maybe a 12 footer.


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## Booom (9 mo ago)

brandom79 said:


> Can anyone recommend a good coaxial digital cable? I may need one to go the full length of my minivan. Maybe a 12 footer.


I have Mogami 2964 cable CANARE RCAP-C5F High Performance 75 Ohm RCA Coaxial connector Ø5mm (Unit) - Audiophonics with RCAP-C5F 75 ohm RCA coaxial connector CANARE RCAP-C5F High Performance 75 Ohm RCA Coaxial connector Ø5mm (Unit) - Audiophonics (cost me around 60 usd/eur for 7m). You can, of course, go for maybe better WBT connectors (must be 75 ohm, I was told) Search - Audiophonics ...
Mogami cables are *VERY *good, Mogami makes cables for professional use. Now you may look for 'better sounding' cable but you will have to buy a couple of them and compare them - in a van. If you consider AQ coax cables (cinnamon, carbon, ...), I think you will get lost in endless expenses and minimal upgrades, if any and you will always ask yourself, if the time has come to upgrade the existing coaxial cable to better sounding (even higher AQ series).


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## dumdum (Feb 27, 2007)

brandom79 said:


> Can anyone recommend a good coaxial digital cable? I may need one to go the full length of my minivan. Maybe a 12 footer.


If you want a custom hand built cable drop me a message, there’s no voodoo though… 75ohm coax cable, techflex and good quality plugs… I’m in the uk but can deliver to the states 👍🏼


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## Selkec (Nov 18, 2018)

Coax is coax. Using an overpriced audioquest cable will sound no different. It’s a digital signal. Unless you damage a coax cable by sharp bends any and all coax will all sound the same. I know aboit coax because I’ve worked for dish and xfinity and done home automation for 20 years. I’ve seen and tested what makes signal changes using a meter and watching the BER and MER (bit Error ratio) ( modulation error rate). So I know for a fact there is no snake oil coax cable that will or can make a difference. If it passes signal with 0 mer and ber it can not get any better than that. That means it’s sending and not losing any data. It is 100% completely IMPOSSIBLE for any high end coaxial/digital to improve upon a 0 ber / mer which any coax can do if not sharply bent. Rg59 works just as good for a car and is more flexible. There isn’t even any benefit to use rg6 over rg59 in a car audio install.


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## brandom79 (Apr 10, 2020)

Thanks for the replies guys... all great info. Sounds like it's not worth dishing out crazy $ for these. You save me at least $500 selkec. I'll check out those mogami.


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## brandom79 (Apr 10, 2020)

If I run my fiio M11 plus through analog mode, so it uses its own dac before reaching the helix dsp ultra, what type of cable do I use?


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