# Front Stage vs. Front and Rear together



## Lance_S (Feb 11, 2009)

How many of you are running Front Stage only?

How many of your are running Front and Rear?


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

Rear fill is for rear passengers. Sure you could do an L-R setup in the rear with some heavy delay to 'enhance' the front stage.. but ultimately the front stage is where it's at.


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## matthewo (Jan 31, 2008)

just front stage for me.


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## Silver Supra (Feb 15, 2008)

Front only


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## peg_legs (Jan 31, 2011)

kids in car, rear on. Kids not in car, rear off. 2 daughters, 9 and 13. First thing said EVERY time "dad, put it on this station" "turn it up, that's my favorite song" "turn it up more". doesn't matter what song it is.


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## Dmanj (Jan 2, 2011)

I use Front and rear together. I find that there seems to be sound missing when I only use the fronts


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## Commissionmip (Jan 27, 2011)

I personally need Front and Rear. When I initially had my front stage installed HSK 163.3 (3-Way Comps) I didn’t have any rear speakers and it sounded like it was missing something. Its possibly because I have a high-end home system that of course uses Fronts, Mids, and rears (Surround Sound) so not having any type of sound from the rear sounds FUNNY… 

My (HU) Eclipse CD7200MII produces surround sound with its built in processor so it truly sounds AMAZING when I listen to music. I also use the Time Alignment function to get the best out of my setup.


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## Juice75 (Sep 18, 2010)

I wonder if this is a little car specific. When I had a single cab truck, I only had front stage (of course), and it sounded great. In my Yukon, if I only run front stage, it sounds a little empty. If I fade in the rear speakers a bit, there is quite a bit more 'fullness' to the sound. The emphasis is still on the front speakers, but it sounds tons better with a little input from the rear set.


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## jel847 (Nov 8, 2007)

i dont think i have used rear fill in over 20 years.
but i usually drive saller 2 door sports cars or pick up trucks. i would imagine if i had something with a larger cabin i would try it out. always wanted to try a large midbass in the rear of the car.

to the op, why not try it without the rear and see how you make out. you can always add someting later.


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## nick650 (Feb 7, 2011)

can't see how you run them with no rear fill. Full size sedan is what I drive and MUST have the rear or it sounds so empty lol


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

50-75% front bias. Rears give free midbass and service passengers, must have it.


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## Lance_S (Feb 11, 2009)

jel847 said:


> i dont think i have used rear fill in over 20 years.
> but i usually drive saller 2 door sports cars or pick up trucks. i would imagine if i had something with a larger cabin i would try it out. always wanted to try a large midbass in the rear of the car.
> 
> to the op, why not try it without the rear and see how you make out. you can always add someting later.


I think I will. And I do think it's car specific. In a truck or small sports car you may not need or want rear fill. This system is going in an 87 Conquest TSI. I will be running a 12" Alumipro Audio Alchemy MX sub enclosed 4th order in a small box in the back seat with 300W to it. So I will be getting great bass and a little mid bass out of it from the rear. That may be all I need from the back.

PS: Like you said, they can always be added later.


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## matthewo (Jan 31, 2008)

I have a large sedan and it sounds very full with just 2 way front. There should be no reason why the front seats need more then a pair of speakers in front. 99% of music is recorded in stereo, so you are not loosing anything not running surround sound. I have been playing around with a few sacd and DVD-a rips using digi out. Sounds great on stereo mode. Even a lot of sacd and DVD-a are just stereo but some are surround.

IMO I like natural stereo, the same the recording studios are using to fine tune and tweak their music though high end studio monitors.


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## matthewo (Jan 31, 2008)

Also a 2 or 3 way active all time delay should give you amazingly full sound. Like the music is everywhere.

The only thing I would consider rear fill for is passengers, and I would just run a pair of coax off the deck and fader them in, but keep the deck fade to front the rest of the time. Also a little more bass reinforcement would be ok maybe a pair of 8s running 60-125hz


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## matthewo (Jan 31, 2008)

If you feel like something is laking without rearfill, I would seriously loom at you front stage. Obviously something is laking and the rearfill is making up for it.


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## Commissionmip (Jan 27, 2011)

Hey one thing for sure is that rear fill is standard. The (Automotive) industry thinks that Rear-fill is a must, because almost every automobile has some sort of rearfill......

Just figured I throw that out there....


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

I only uses the rear speakers


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## Silver Supra (Feb 15, 2008)

Commissionmip said:


> Hey one thing for sure is that rear fill is standard. The (Automotive) industry thinks that Rear-fill is a must, because almost every automobile has some sort of rearfill......
> 
> Just figured I throw that out there....


They also include OEM head-units and wonderful speakers.


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## trojan fan (Nov 4, 2007)

96jimmyslt said:


> I only uses the rear speakers



I only use my sub...LOL


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## matthewo (Jan 31, 2008)

Commissionmip said:


> Hey one thing for sure is that rear fill is standard. The (Automotive) industry thinks that Rear-fill is a must, because almost every automobile has some sort of rearfill......
> 
> Just figured I throw that out there....


yes, its become a more is better type of thing. if someone asked how is the stereo in this car at a dealership and they said it had 2 or 4 speakers, you would think the stereo sucked. my car came with 10 speakers, they where all pos paper cone crap that failed withing 10,000 miles. they are thinking about your rear passengers, and if they have to put 10 speakers in the car, then they are going to be the cheapest ones china can make for them.

i would like to exclude some MB and other higher end car companies that do use decent speakers, and put time into designing a decent audio system.

usually when you use cheapo speakers you need 8 or 10 of them to give the car enough sound. too bad my 10 speaker stock system still sounded crappy and bottomed out the front midbass drivers with any heavy bass music.


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

I have 6.5 2-way components in the front with plenty of power. While front-only sounds good, the sound seems to become fuller if I also turn on the rear speakers. Perhaps it's the midbass or perhaps it's the additional surround sound effect, but I like it. My rear speakers are coaxial speakers that happen to have relatively weak tweeters, strong midbass, and low sensitivity. They don't interfer with the front stage. They run off head unit, and their volume is set really low. I heard in some cars having a sub in trunk can damage rear speakers, but it's not an issue in my car because the rear deck has an empty hole for a factory 6x9 IB subwoofer.


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## oldguy (May 6, 2009)

I use both. I have an 02 Dodge xcab pickup. It came from the factory with front and rear speakers, so when I decided to upgrade the speakers, I replaced all four.
Polk db 6x9's in the front, and db521's (?) in the rear doors. Once I got the tuning closer to where it needed to be, It sounds really good, but is still missing something up front. I'm going to a component system for the fronts, so hopefully that will bring the front alive a little. The soundstage is fairly low.
By adding the tweeters in the front, it should definitely help raise the stage, and get rid of the void.

Thinking about a sub too. Nothing crazy...


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

i think only a van or big suv like a suburban should use rear fill. even then i would only want the furthest speakers to be on and on hu power.

i have a crew cab truck and i can hear it just fine in the back at normal listening volume for the front seats


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## radarcontact (Oct 28, 2010)

I like the sound better with a little rear fill. I don't necessarily want to "hear it" but I can tell when it is versus isn't there. (I can no longer hear much over 12k Hz, but I want me speakers to go to 20k too! Lol)

I'll be running an ms-8 soon, and that is my biggest dilemma-- I'll have 8 channels, so I'll need to decided between the following options:
1) Active front 3-ways, center, sub
2) active front mid-bass, active as a pair but passively crossed mids to tweets (run off one ch each side versus two as in #1 above), rears, center, sub
3) active front 3-ways, rears, no center, no active on sub

I need an MS-10!!


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## bbotelhoHI (Mar 7, 2011)

im only running fronts. my box and amp rack effectively block where the rear speakers were mounted. doesnt make much sense to me to keep them there


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

matthewo said:


> I have a large sedan and it sounds very full with just 2 way front. There should be no reason why the front seats need more then a pair of speakers in front. 99% of music is recorded in stereo, so you are not loosing anything not running surround sound. I have been playing around with a few sacd and DVD-a rips using digi out. Sounds great on stereo mode. Even a lot of sacd and DVD-a are just stereo but some are surround.
> 
> IMO I like natural stereo, the same the recording studios are using to fine tune and tweak their music though high end studio monitors.


Perhaps it's also a matter of taste. When I attend an outdoor concert, I get the kind of sound that you call stereo. When I attend an indoor concert, the sound is fuller in the sense that a lot of sounds reflect around from walls and hit you from various angles. Bass seems fuller too. I prefer indoor music hall experience, and I believe this is the sort of experience that surround sound formats try to reproduce. Also I think most cars have speaker placement that's very far from the way stereo sound was intended to be played. Maybe if I figured out how to put my speakers in A-pilars or kickpanels and had a way to set correct time delay for all speakers, I'd ditch the rear sound too.


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## samos69 (Mar 8, 2011)

sqshoestring said:


> 50-75% front bias. Rears give free midbass and service passengers, must have it.


This pretty much sums up how I see it as well...


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## MajesticLT03 (Mar 27, 2011)

My Trailblazer sounds weird without the rears on... so its F and R for me


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## mcm308 (Nov 24, 2010)

Front stage only for me...pure SQ


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## McDizzle (Jan 17, 2008)

If you have a critical ear about frequency response and sound stage, front only.

If you want a loud dance club car, add the rears too. More cone area is more sound but with the rears, stage is gone and comb filtering and cancellations are more rampant.

All dependent on the listener. I chose fronts only, critical ears are a curse.


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## Miguel.Gto (Mar 25, 2011)

i have a single cab truck, so front only for me... rears would be right on my ear, dont like it !!!


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

mcm308 said:


> Front stage only for me...pure SQ


I use my rear stage to enhance the front stage (width/height), and to add rear ambience to the vehicle ... Works great in Sound Quality competition ...

... and to satisfy the kids when needed ...


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## vtec97 (Apr 15, 2011)

Dmanj said:


> I use Front and rear together. I find that there seems to be sound missing when I only use the fronts


I agree I tried the front setup and biwired my components to my 4 channel. Definitly miSsing something of course use the fronts as the main source but it sounds hollow with the rears. Kinda like a band missing a back-up singer.


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

vtec97 said:


> I agree I tried the front setup and biwired my components to my 4 channel. Definitly miSsing something of course use the fronts as the main source but it sounds hollow with the rears. Kinda like a band missing a back-up singer.


Rear Ambience: The acoustic characteristics of a space with regard to reverberation. A room with a lot of reverb is said to be "live"; one without much reverb is said to be "dead". As if there is a dead spot in the rear of the room or vehicle ...


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## vtec97 (Apr 15, 2011)

Exactly u can't grasp the true nature of the music that the artist is tryin to convey unless it envelops u from all around. Yeah music is meant to be listened to but in acuality its meant to be experienced and felt not merely listened to. And u can't get that unless u are wrapped in it.


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## vtec97 (Apr 15, 2011)

Damn I can't spell worth a damn tnight


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## stealthninja (Apr 26, 2011)

I like both for my kids and wife, plus what could it hurt if you found some great rear fil for cheap? Just putting in my .02


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## flipnap (Feb 14, 2011)

i see a lot of posts like these with very little discussion about tuning for front/rear set ups. I see posts like "for SQ, front only" and thats just not true..at all. If you do the groundwork with the install (materials, axis response,deadening) and tune for TA and frequency harmonic balancing you can have an AMAZING sounding system with rears, and you can hear a HUGE difference in sound 'quantity' as well as 'quality'


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## regxjin (Apr 9, 2011)

I prefer a filler.
Why? Because sound reaches areas where my front speeks can't...
I prefer sound in multi-directions.. the outcome may be minimal for the
front seating, but it still fills areas near the front seat where the front drivers cannot.
Hence, it is mainly used as added support for your front speakers...
Even having crappy rear speakers running off your HU is better than not.. IMO...

But what do I know.. just a noob enthusiast that loves music.


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## aeon (Oct 11, 2007)

I use to like having my rears playing because it seemed to fill in the gaps I had in my front stage. Since installing my newer speakers, I don't feel the need for rear speakers anymore. I don't really notice any difference with them on.


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## xt577 (Apr 19, 2011)

Using attenuated stock rears off of HU power (the rest of the system is amped). 

Bandpass limited to play from ~200-3000hz (http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/how-articles-provided-our-members/81191-rear-fill-speakers.html)


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## turbinez (May 7, 2009)

Front Fill only, running an active setup and sounds amazing in my 2 door coupe. Plus having rear fill completely messedup my front sound stage. It made things sounded very sloppy and not crisp at all.


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

The only times I've used rear fill was with a Hafler circuit (I think that's what it's called anyway). 

Use a non-bridgeable amp, like a HU, and run the rear speakers in series and only connect the positive leads. Sounds pretty cool as it phases out the information that's shared on both the L & R channel (center) and you pretty much only hear what is channel specific. Makes the car 'sound' a bit bigger and doesn't destroy the front stage.


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## jason19 (Jan 21, 2011)

I have front and rear also just seems that much better with rear fill


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## ro2207 (May 31, 2011)

Bluliner said:


> The only times I've used rear fill was with a Hafler circuit (I think that's what it's called anyway).
> 
> Use a non-bridgeable amp, like a HU, and run the rear speakers in series and only connect the positive leads. Sounds pretty cool as it phases out the information that's shared on both the L & R channel (center) and you pretty much only hear what is channel specific. Makes the car 'sound' a bit bigger and doesn't destroy the front stage.


I've experimenting with rear fill by connecting the rear speakers just as you describe above.

Can I do any damage to my Kenwood head unit by using the Hafler wiring method?

I've read that if the amp is not "common grounded" this is not a good idea, but don't know exactly what that means.

As a newbie, I would really appreciate any useful info on this subject (before I burn my HU )

Thanks


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## megabutler (Oct 2, 2009)

I am currently building my SQ system right now, which is front stage only.


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

ro2207 said:


> I've experimenting with rear fill by connecting the rear speakers just as you describe above.
> 
> Can I do any damage to my Kenwood head unit by using the Hafler wiring method?
> 
> ...


The IC inside the Kenwood is "common grounded" as the output channels are all sharing the same ground source. What you probably read pertains to mono amps or dual mono amps with separate power supplies/power inputs. Despite the impressive feature list on your H/U...it isn't that complicated. 

If your 'wood gives up the ghost...it won't be from a Hafler circuit.


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## ro2207 (May 31, 2011)

Bluliner said:


> The IC inside the Kenwood is "common grounded" as the output channels are all sharing the same ground source. What you probably read pertains to mono amps or dual mono amps with separate power supplies/power inputs. Despite the impressive feature list on your H/U...it isn't that complicated.
> 
> If your 'wood gives up the ghost...it won't be from a Hafler circuit.


Thanks for the input, I'm having quite some fun experimenting with this basic pseudo-sorround hack.

One thing I do notice, volume decreases significantly with this set up... 

Is it due to the fact that, wired this way, the speakers present an 8ohm total load to the amp? (series wiring 2 SVC 4ohm speakers = 8ohms) 

If that's the case, using two 2ohm speakers with same sensitivity characteristics as the originals should bring the volume level up again without damaging the HU (presenting a 4 ohm total load when hooked using the Hafler circuit).

Is my reasoning correct?


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## vtec97 (Apr 15, 2011)

What is meant by only hooking up the positive leads?


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

ro2207 said:


> Is my reasoning correct?


Partially. 

The real reason the amplitude has decreased dramatically is b/c the speakers are reproducing less information b/c most of it has been cancelled out. 

Ever play music that doesn't have a lot of bass and wonder where all your bass went? Well, that's kinda what's happening here except it's not bass; it's L&R channels. If, say, 99% of the information on whatever source you have is shared by the L&R channels; your speakers will only reproduce the 1% difference. 

Crank up some AM talk radio...you won't hear squat. 

The better the recording, the better the channel separation, and more information that isn't shared between the L&R channels. When finding some better sounding disks, you might stumble upon some that sound downright spooky if you're riding in the back. But in the driver's seat, I feel it makes the car sound 'bigger'. 

The difficult thing is finding a turd of an amp that cannot be bridged if you're using a "dead head" that won't induce noise or start fires. Older Eclipse screens had this goofy outboard IC with enough wires on it to hang a snake that worked like a charm...I may try the Alpine blister pack "add an amp to your radio's amp" thing when I install my newly acquired dead head.


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## Bluliner (May 16, 2011)

vtec97 said:


> What is meant by only hooking up the positive leads?


It means don't use the wires w/a black stripe on it.


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## 96jimmyslt (Jan 31, 2011)

I recently put comps in the rear doors.

Now I lower all 4 windows and get 2x the fill and sound in the air.

Not only that, but if I ever transport anyone, it's more high-roller status to have all 4 doors comp'd up.

I guess it's just a luxury thing, even though the comps were only $60 for a pair.

Most people said to only worry about the front doors since that's where you drive, but I wanted to have it all matching.


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## ro2207 (May 31, 2011)

Bluliner said:


> Partially.
> 
> The real reason the amplitude has decreased dramatically is b/c the speakers are reproducing less information b/c most of it has been cancelled out.


^
Definitely part of the equation. The reason I ask about impedance is because I have some spare 6" 3ohm HK speakers that are in better shape than my current stock speakers.

So basically, my HU will perceive a "SAFE" 6ohm total load for the rears. (?)


The difficult thing is finding a turd of an amp that cannot be bridged if you're using a "dead head" that won't induce noise or start fires. Older Eclipse screens had this goofy outboard IC with enough wires on it to hang a snake that worked like a charm...I may try the Alpine blister pack "add an amp to your radio's amp" thing when I install my newly acquired dead head.


Are you referring to the Alpine KTP-445?
I'm also interested in one of those convenient add-ons...

My guess is it will enable you to use all the fancy settings like XOVERS, positioning etc. while boosting power a bit (maybe +3db?)

My only concern with that type of install (haven't used one) is that the output signal might not be as clear as using 5V preouts to a separate amp.
Also, probably not as loud as a stand alone 50rms p/ch amp that costs the same.

Nonetheless, if I ever buy a new alpine unit I would definitely consider the power pack due to its simplicity.

My current HU is old and pretty much entry level (no fancy excelon, although I have installed an X993 and it sounds very nice).


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

Setting up for 5.1 works REALLY GREAT for Sound Quality when set up correctly ... 
Better the installation and driver placement without alot of processing sounds Awesome !!! And scores really well in Competition ... 

Given all drivers are set up to enhance the front stage and all sections are not overpowering one another ...


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## Lance_S (Feb 11, 2009)

Cablguy184 said:


> Setting up for 5.1 works REALLY GREAT for Sound Quality when set up correctly ...
> Better the installation and driver placement without alot of processing sounds Awesome !!! And scores really well in Competition ...
> 
> Given all drivers are set up to enhance the front stage and all sections are not overpowering one another ...


I think that's the trick. Installation and setup is everything when it comes to 5.1. I think it can be great in the right vehicle and horrendous in others.

It seems the general consensus is that with those who carry passangers often or have larger vehicles like SUV's, rear fill is nice. SQ isn't their number one goal as they are thinking about the kids or passangers or the size of the vehicle, etc.

Front stage only, if set up correctly can eliminate the need for a rear stage. I certainly don't miss my rears. But I don't think there is a right or wrong. I also don't believe that if you enjoy rear fill you don't appreciate SQ. 

I also believe there are many people that haven't had a chance to listen to a front only system that was set up correctly and strong. That makes a big difference in your attitude towards one or the other.

Either way, rock on.


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## Cablguy184 (Oct 7, 2010)

Lance_S said:


> I think that's the trick. Installation and setup is everything when it comes to 5.1. I think it can be great in the right vehicle and horrendous in others.
> 
> It seems the general consensus is that with those who carry passangers often or have larger vehicles like SUV's, rear fill is nice. SQ isn't their number one goal as they are thinking about the kids or passangers or the size of the vehicle, etc.
> 
> ...


I agree, its just that in a theatre, you can hear the rear ambience in the room ... You NEED that affect in your vehicle to create the same atmosphere ... to me, rears are a must for SQ ...


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## shexy (Jun 20, 2011)

Im running all 4 doors. Gives me an excuse to get a better front stage


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## asawendo (Nov 22, 2009)

Front speaker + rear fill (attenuated, bandpass limited, L-R) most of the time. But sometimes Front speaker only. Thx


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## PottersField (Mar 18, 2011)

I run rear fill but it's powered off the head unit and mostly faded out. I fade it in a bit more for ambience when we go to the drive-in but other than that it's just there for rear passengers. I can't even hear it from the driver's seat.


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## Morts (May 28, 2009)

Front and Rear have a DVD Navi System with Rear Monitor for the kid and fade some rear out most of the time.


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## rytekproject (Feb 25, 2011)

Mine is faded out so I cant hear it. Kinda wish I didnt replace the speakers back there. I will adding a MS-8 eventually though to utilize them (along with a center)


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## val69 (Apr 7, 2011)

I only use the mute! I have the best of both worlds.


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## Gary S (Dec 11, 2007)

ro2207 said:


> Thanks for the input, I'm having quite some fun experimenting with this basic pseudo-sorround hack.
> 
> One thing I do notice, volume decreases significantly with this set up...
> 
> ...






ro2207 said:


> The reason I ask about impedance is because I have some spare 6" 3ohm HK speakers that are in better shape than my current stock speakers.
> 
> So basically, my HU will perceive a "SAFE" 6ohm total load for the rears. ?



- Think of it like bridging....both amp channels are used together, so each one "sees" half the total ohm load. For example, two - 4 ohm speakers in series = 8 ohms, so each amp channel sees 4-ohms. Another example: Two - 3-ohm speakers in series, each amp channel would be at 3-ohms.

I've been running surround or Hafler in my cars since 1987. Years ago, many amps were not bridgeable, or had a switch, so you could turn the bridging inverter off. Times have changed, and today, most outboard amps are bridgeable (trimode) with no other options, and therefore, you can't hook them up in Hafler configuration. Of course you can with most head units, but you really need stronger outboard amps for a quality system in my opinion.

What I have gone to today is a Sony Mex-DV2200 Head unit (There may be a second unit available, MEX-DV2000 ?)... it has Dolby Pro Logic ll which will give you the rear surround signal from any stereo source, and you can use any amps you want.

Search my posts for more information.


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## goodstuff (Jan 9, 2008)

Fronts only. Never looked back after using time alignment. Even without t/a just fronts was a step forward for me.


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## fight4life28 (Mar 18, 2011)

Fronts only. love it


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## vtec97 (Apr 15, 2011)

ok i am a convert. never again will i put a full or midrange speaker in the rear deck. wow!!! ive seeen some trash talk with the spx-17ref but holy cow they didnt listen to them as the stand alone mid and high source in the front doors. along with my type x 10 to say that it sounds utterly amazing with front comps and 1 sub is an understatement. complete plan now is to add a set of spx-13ref just above the 17. alpine's crossover is no bueno for tweeter. blew mine in three months. plus another 10 and sniff sniff, pair of type r 8s in back deck


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## Diamond Method (Jan 11, 2011)

In my car I currently have 4" speakers in the front doors and a 10" sub in the trunk, so adding 6" woofers in the rear deck band passed at 80-200, helped fill in some of the missing mid bass. It was finicky and hard to balance though, and yes it pulled the soundstage (if I can even call it that) back some. This weekend Im changing everything up though and FINALLY putting 6.5"s in place of the 4" fronts, then I don't plan on using a rear fill. Of course, I will prolly try the Hafler circuit + some bandpassing just to experiment.

Oh course if you dont run a sub or external amps, and you have tiny speakers up front then rear is going to help. Some people are good with just 1 step up from OEM.


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## UNFORGIVEN (Sep 25, 2010)

High power front stage and something budget for rear fill (mainly for rear passengers)


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## BuickGN (May 29, 2009)

Before TA I felt like something was missing without the rears. With TA it's wonderful with an actual stage. The only way I would run rears is in a true 5.1 setup. As of now it sounds so much better with fronts only. 

Others noticed it too, indirectly. I sometimes got asked why I don't use rear fill. Since I added the MS8 and TA, no one has mentioned the rears or even noticed that they're not there.


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

The more time I spend tweaking my car's audio system, the more I feel like the rear fill doesn't add anything.. Without proper processing, it can screw up frequency response, the sound stage, and tonality, if the speakers are not from the same family, and create phase issues. For now, I turn off my rear speakers with head unit's fader. I turn it on only to entertain an occasional rear passenger. Eventually I might go with an active setup and get rid of rear fill altogether (I will need to use all of my head unit pre-amps for it).


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## Frank Drebin (May 30, 2011)

Currently running a 2 way active front stage. I will be running amplified rear fill for passengers (my daughter, when she is older) as well to take full advantage of the MS8's logic 7.


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## mht_v10 (Dec 10, 2005)

I use the front and rear together... I know a lot of ppl would say the other way, but it's nice for a rear passenger to have a little something nice to hear instead of the bass only.

for me, as long as the front stage is stronger, it's nice to have the rear for the ambience.


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## Commissionmip (Jan 27, 2011)

So, Sometime ago (page 1 or 2) I put rearfil was a must!! For the past two weeks I have been running my front set, due to other reasons, and I must say that it sounds pretty good. Don't get me wrong, it's not the full surround sound effect, but it sounds good. Now beings as though I have the eclipse cd7200 with surround sound capabilities, I would prefer this because you can hear all the extra things that are missed. For example. Tupac/makaveli album has alot of hidden sounds that seems to only come through the rear fill for some reason and for reasons like this the fearful is a must!


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## sqguy (Oct 19, 2005)

right now i'm running both front and rear but my rear has more output then the front working on a complete system over haul soon just need more money


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

WOW!!! The poll votes thus far are much closer than what I thought they would be. Fronts only.


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## downwind4final (Oct 8, 2006)

I had a Polk SDA in the early 90's and had rear speakers. That was a cool system. Other than that, front only.


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## barbaroja (May 25, 2011)

I can live with fronts but rears do give a sense of fullness when properly dialed in.


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## minbari (Mar 3, 2011)

I have run front only and front/rear fill setups. the rear fill ones had very little if anything over the front only ones. it just costs more


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## quakerroatmeal (Aug 21, 2008)

Front + rear filled in.


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## Ianarian (Dec 20, 2010)

Those of you without rear fill... How does the pencil circling track on the focal test CD sound.....eh?


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## mattzane227 (Jan 2, 2010)

I have rears but they are little 4" ones since that's what my Rodeo takes and I can't really notice them unless i'm in the back seat.


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## illnastyimpreza (Oct 25, 2006)

fill it up


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## Wattser93 (Mar 12, 2010)

Ianarian said:


> Those of you without rear fill... How does the pencil circling track on the focal test CD sound.....eh?


CDs are only 2 channel anyways. Rear fill or no rear fill, it's panning from left to right, there is no "rear channel" information being fed to the rear speakers, just the same signal that's being sent to the fronts. Unless you have a DSP, rear speakers are just duplicates of the front.


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## GS-R_Autotech (Oct 3, 2011)

fronts and rears. 

kinda dumb to have a 5.1 setup and not run my rears haa


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## s4turn (Jun 17, 2009)

front only


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## Flinchy (Feb 29, 2012)

last car was 90% front, rears heavily faded

probably be the same story with the new install, just turn it off when it's juust me or 1 passenger.


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

I'm really struggling with this one right now in my vehicle (a smaller 4-door SUV). I have always loved the depth of the sound stage when using rear speakers. 

Since my new HU has time alignment and L/R EQ on 31-bands, I have really been able to dial in the front stage. In fact, when I cut the highs in the rear door speakers, the front image is actually too precise, too easy to localize and determine the direction of the sources. I made the comment in the HU product review thread that it sounds like a super mega boombox is on my dash. 

The rear speakers, when blended right, provide nice left right localization but also a depth that sofetens the laser like accuracy and fill it with an almost angelic 3-dimensional quality. When the depth front to rear is equal on the right and left, it is perfect. 
However, Im now getting too much depth on the right, and my stage is L-shaped. 

I need to figure on a compromise, maybe cut the rear channels above 4-5K or so. 

I understand that rear fill is a big pain in the azz- more speakers, more amp channels, more HU or processor channels, more expense and difficult to tune. 

But IMHO there is a pot of SQ gold at the end ot the tunnel.


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## hilander999 (Jul 6, 2011)

avanti1960 said:


> When the depth front to rear is equal on the right and left, it is perfect.
> However, Im now getting too much depth on the right, and my stage is L-shaped.


Try swapping the polarity of your right-rear speaker.
Having the rear speakers out of phase with each other will help cancel out the information that is identical in both channels and normally provides more ambience for the overall sound stage.


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## Lance_S (Feb 11, 2009)

Interesting, running about 50% front only vs. rear. I run a small vehicle so I decided to take the available funds and build one really good front stage vs. a decent front and rear. I run a small hatchback so I don't need to fill space like a tahoe owner. Those will a great front stage often say there is no need for rears. I certainly don't miss my rear stage but I do run a 12 sub just behind my front seat so I do get rear fill on the low end. Either way, I don't know if there is a right and wrong, just a preference. I have had both setups and currently I enjoy the front only. It allows me to run a fully active system with more control which i like.


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## sbelew (Feb 13, 2011)

Only been into car audio for about a year. I installed systems in my extended cab truck, (6.5"'s components in front doors, 6x8 coax in rear doors) and a 4 door car (6.5" coax in front doors, had to make adapter plates to fit the 4x6 opening and 6x9 coax in rear deck.) I read about front versus front and rear, but didn't listen. I figured there are holes for speakers back there, gotta have speakers in the holes. 

After reading more and more about it, I decided to fade the rears out in both vehicles and force myself to listen to it for a while. At first it was wierd, like I always wanted to lean forward to listen. But after about a month, I faded the rears back in, and I just do not like it anymore.

I have a 4 channel and a mono in the truck and a 5 channel in the car. I'll keep the rear speakers in but keep them faded out and I guess only use them if someone sitting in the rear of the vehicle complains, i can partially fade them back in temporarily. Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.


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## Lance_S (Feb 11, 2009)

sbelew said:


> Only been into car audio for about a year. I installed systems in my extended cab truck, (6.5"'s components in front doors, 6x8 coax in rear doors) and a 4 door car (6.5" coax in front doors, had to make adapter plates to fit the 4x6 opening and 6x9 coax in rear deck.) I read about front versus front and rear, but didn't listen. I figured there are holes for speakers back there, gotta have speakers in the holes.
> 
> After reading more and more about it, I decided to fade the rears out in both vehicles and force myself to listen to it for a while. At first it was wierd, like I always wanted to lean forward to listen. But after about a month, I faded the rears back in, and I just do not like it anymore.
> 
> I have a 4 channel and a mono in the truck and a 5 channel in the car. I'll keep the rear speakers in but keep them faded out and I guess only use them if someone sitting in the rear of the vehicle complains, i can partially fade them back in temporarily. Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.


Interesting experience. Certainly timing comes into play. Because the rear speakers are farther away from your ear there is a delay which changes the experience. Some like it, some don't. It's not as accurate with rears but some would suggest that you can't hear the time delay. So much of it depends on the speaker location and dynamics of the car. If your running a small hatchback, the rear speakers can be pretty close. If the speakers are down in the bottom of the rear doors, again, different acoustics and directionality completely. Most people that I know that are running really high end systems are running just fronts and staging them and time delaying them. If they are running subs, which most are, they are using them for rear, low end fill. I certainly don't miss my rears, mostly because my system is less complex and I can use the money that would have been spent on another amp and rear speakers and crossovers for a higher end front stage. The front stage i have is staged well enough that I have very little directionality. If I close my eyes, I have a hard time telling where the music is coming from.


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## Vidgamer (Feb 25, 2012)

A bit of rear fill can really help, but too much will mess up the soundstage. In my current car, it pulls the center way to t he right, so I fade forward a bit. Unfortunately, I need the rears for bass fill, as the fronts roll off (due to stupid factory deck). I'm contemplating building a passive circuit to deal with this situation.... (Without the rear, it is just too thin.)


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## Donny.k (Mar 3, 2012)

i'm doing a front stage only in my city car, because I always driving and never feel the need to improve the rear stage.


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## Vidgamer (Feb 25, 2012)

The thing is, as someone else mentioned, sometimes a bit of rear fill helps with the center. So, I just want a bit of fill -- not too much. It's not like I have to choose between all-or-nothing... or do I? It needs some tweaking to get the right balance...


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## gjmallory (Apr 13, 2010)

96jimmyslt said:


> I only uses the rear speakers


One more proof that he is the Borat of DIYMA... LMFAO! 

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2


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## therichinc (Mar 1, 2011)

im in a Range Rover HSE running fronts only. Mine sounds pretty Full...


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

radarcontact said:


> I like the sound better with a little rear fill. I don't necessarily want to "hear it" but I can tell when it is versus isn't there. (I can no longer hear much over 12k Hz, but I want me speakers to go to 20k too! Lol)
> 
> I'll be running an ms-8 soon, and that is my biggest dilemma-- I'll have 8 channels, so I'll need to decided between the following options:
> 1) Active front 3-ways, center, sub
> ...


im running against the same dilema... what to do?!

CC


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## ScottyGreen (Apr 3, 2012)

The tiniest hair of rear brings my soundstage up a touch and I get BETTER imaging. And when I say tiny, I'm talking the faintest bit of sound coming from them, not audible really unless you're on top of the rear package tray with your head... kids say "I can't hear it back here" just the way I like it!


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

just out of curiosity, what do competition judges say?

do they really have an opinion, or do they just judge the sound however u present it?


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

I run fronts only but it sounds like I have rears. To each their own though.


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## Pimpnyou204 (Jul 13, 2011)

Ive stuck to only fronts. Its definately cheaper and ride a coupe so im pretty much sitting in the rear. If i had the space and funds and all id probably run some very light coax in the back just to give a echo i guess lol


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## Pimpnyou204 (Jul 13, 2011)

Although if i had a SUV i would totally run something in the back simply because its a large area to fill.


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## Cruzer (Jul 16, 2010)

Pimpnyou204 said:


> Although if i had a SUV i would totally run something in the back simply because its a large area to fill.


u ever had an suv?

i have a suv, its not the biggest like a tahoe or expedition or anything but imo its easy to fill the entire car at the moderate level i listen to.

i lifted the back hatch one day and went into garage and i could still hear it just fine


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## Whiskeyface (May 27, 2012)

I would be interested to see what kind of music all of you listen too. for example I listen to metal, doom, drone, and some dubstep. So most of the time I want my rears for more cone area, but when im listening to drone (like sunn o))) its more of an ambiance thing.


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## hilander999 (Jul 6, 2011)

Whiskeyface said:


> I would be interested to see what kind of music all of you listen too. for example I listen to metal, doom, drone, and some dubstep. So most of the time I want my rears for more cone area, but when im listening to drone (like sunn o))) its more of an ambiance thing.


http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/general-car-audio-discussion/128101-type-music.html


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## cjazzy4 (Mar 29, 2012)

MY set up will be front and rear on this current vehicle.....However I must admit the idea of a three way system active and sub does intrigue me.......I did get a chance to hear a high end JL system and I was impressed  at what it can do sound wise. Who knows I may have to change my vote.


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## rmoltis (Sep 4, 2012)

I have a small car and I love the fullness of sound from all 4 channels I like being surrounded by 360 degrees of sound.
It can sound good with the fronts only but i don't like the idea of having weak spots of sound anywhere in the vehicle.
Plus I can keep the head unit volume lower and get more decibels, while not making each speaker work as hard/ not pushing them to their limits.
I have sheepskin seat covers as well and since they absorb sound the rears help compensate.
Plus I carry passengers sometimes and I would feel stingy with only fronts.


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## cjazzy4 (Mar 29, 2012)

rmoltis said:


> I have a small car and I love the fullness of sound from all 4 channels I like being surrounded by 360 degrees of sound.
> It can sound good with the fronts only but i don't like the idea of having weak spots of sound anywhere in the vehicle.
> Plus I can keep the head unit volume lower and get more decibels, while not making each speaker work as hard/ not pushing them to their limits.
> I have sheepskin seat covers as well and since they absorb sound the rears help compensate.
> Plus I carry passengers sometimes and I would feel stingy with only fronts.


You do have a point there.....I do like the 5.1 theater like sound that can be delivered from having rears.....I'm going to have to say for my first build I will stick with my Frts/rears and sub......I guess the trick is figuring out the right balance of tuning to do on the frt/rears to make them really have that "sweet spot" affect for passengers in the car.


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## tim.perkins3557 (Mar 6, 2013)

I drive have a Tahoe, and can personally tell zero difference with the rear speakers on. I listen to any type of music you could possibly think of and am constantly fading the rears in and out to see if there's a noticeable difference, and as of yet, there has been none, at least to my ears.

My children are my only passengers, and only watch DVD's in the back, so for me there's really no need to have rear-fill, but I'll hang on to it just in case they ever decide to start choosing music over movies. For now though, I'm keeping it stock in the rear and faaaaaaaaaaaading to the FRONT!


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## txfast (Nov 21, 2012)

Rear fill is a must for me in a 4 door sedan. In a single cab truck or 2 door coupe, I could see front only as being an option. But for me in a 4 door, it just sounds like it has a weird hollowness without it.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

matthewo said:


> Also a 2 or 3 way active all time delay should give you amazingly full sound. Like the music is everywhere.
> 
> The only thing I would consider rear fill for is passengers, and I would just run a pair of coax off the deck and fader them in, but keep the deck fade to front the rest of the time. Also a little more bass reinforcement would be ok maybe a pair of 8s running 60-125hz


Hey man, another G8board guy! I don't visit there much anymore... 

Your stereo article gave me a good push in my decision to go active and pursure SQ, but that's another story, I had no idea what I was missing without a DSP. 

FWIW - I run no rear stage. My kids can hear the fronts enough to make them happy, and I get to turn up the volume a fair amount, which makes me happy! They wear headphones and ipods half the time on road trips anyways, then I can have enough volume up front for cruising without bothering them.


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## Lambspeed (Apr 18, 2013)

Everything up front! 6.75 components passive bi amped and a Sundown sd2 8 downfiring in a custom enclosure to replace my glove box. Fills the whole car just fine!


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## bark424 (Feb 16, 2013)

FRont and rear. I'm not aware the rear is there but if I turn it off it definitely doesn't sound as good


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## avanti1960 (Sep 24, 2011)

an update to this thread as my experience with a full blown time aligned system has become "proficient"-
The correct level and time alignment was critical and once set, extremely beneficial to stage width and three dimensional, holographic yet pinpoint SQ. 
my left stage is easily well outside of the car equal distant to the right- a perfect balance. this is because the rear set draws the stage rearward ever so slightly and the left stage eminates from just behind the sail panel outside of the car. 
Mute the rear speakers and the stage pulls forward and becomes narrow. 
An absolutely perfect stage that I cannot live without. Unfortunately with a rear set you drive the need for amp and processing channels which raises the price of admission significantly. Worth it- absolutely.


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## syc0path (Jan 23, 2013)

I run fronts only... my subs are crossed kinda high (100Hz), but w/ a steep slope (24dB/octave). I find this works to give just a hint of diffused, treble-attenuated rear fill.

The problem w/ rear speakers is this: imagine u have 2 speakers on a wall, about 2' apart from each other. If u stand 2' from that wall and I turn off 1 of the speakers, u wouldn't have any trouble telling me which speaker is turned off. Now imagine this same test when u'r standing 10' away from the wall -- it becomes much more difficult to tell which is turned off. Now consider how far apart the rear speakers are from each other and how far away they are from your head, and it become easy to see why rear speakers typically have a negative effect on imaging and staging.

Yeah it sounded weird at 1st to just have the front stage, but once I got used to it, I realized how much better my staging and imaging is. Getting rid of the rear stage also eliminates phasing issues between the subs and the 6x9s, so bass response is crisper and slightly louder.

As some1 else mentioned, rear speakers are standard in cars primarily becuz, the average person, loud=good sound. And the cheapest way to make a system sound louder is to add more cone area. Plus there's the market aspect (most people think more speakers are better). And there's the more or less legitimate scenario where the people in the back can't hear the music unless it's pretty loud in the front.

FWIW, I still have the stock rear speakers in my car, and they're hooked up to my aftermarket HU. However, there's an option in the HU's menu to turn the internal amp on or off. So I could always turn on the rear speakers if I needed to. I never have though, and none of my occasional rear-seat passengers have ever complained about it.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

bark424 said:


> FRont and rear. I'm not aware the rear is there but if I turn it off it definitely doesn't sound as good


Maybe you need to work on your front stage.


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## hilander999 (Jul 6, 2011)

Spyke said:


> Maybe you need to work on your front stage.


If your rear fill does not improve the quality of your front stage, then you have done somethihng wrong. No one who has listened to my car has not been blown away with the imaging and depth of the music. Ambient rear fill, when properly done, will blow your mind.


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## Spyke (Apr 20, 2012)

hilander999 said:


> If your rear fill does not improve the quality of your front stage, then you have done somethihng wrong. No one who has listened to my car has not been blown away with the imaging and depth of the music. Ambient rear fill, when properly done, will blow your mind.


Oh I agree with you. When done properly with or without will both blow your mind. Your front stage should still be able to perform on its own regardless.


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## Earzbleed (Feb 10, 2013)

I have a rather large car and even having the fader set too much towards the front makes it sound like arse. No rear speakers at all just sounds kinda hollow.
http://cdn.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/image44330_b.thumbnail.jpg
I have the sensitivity on my equalizer set a bit lower for the rears with a little more bass and less treble than the fronts and it all blends together quite well.
It might come down to personal preference. I just want the music to sound like when we have a jam session/band practice and with these settings, it does.


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## bark424 (Feb 16, 2013)

Spyke said:


> Maybe you need to work on your front stage.


maybe. I know it's not a high end front stage. silver flutes, vifa tweeters and a passive xo. I'm about to swap the flutes out with a pair of sb acoustics soon. could make a difference. but it's still a large 4 door.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Maybe people need to clarify what they're talking about? This has been beat to death.

Rear stereo channels and Rear fill are not the same. One is processed and the other is competing with the Front stereo channels. Rear fill adds ambiance.


EDIT:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1038032-post6.html


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## BowDown (Sep 24, 2009)

I make my own processed rear 'noise' but reflections coming off my front stage. :laugh:


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

BowDown said:


> I make my own processed rear 'noise' but reflections coming off my front stage. :laugh:


My kids make more noise than any rear fill could 

Brayden is a year and half...whenever he has a huge man fart he yells "BOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!" and laughs at himself


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