# Which 4ch amp for SQ?



## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

I need a 4ch amp for an active system. I'm looking for SQ first and foremost - clarity and detail is key. By reading the forum and going through the classifieds, several choices seem like a good fit for my system:

*PPI A404* - It reads like a great sounding amp, but I'm a little put-off by the need for plugs.

*Orion 4004* - Looks great, would make for a perfect (physical) fit, but I know nothing about its sound.

*ARC KS300.4* - Its power is tempting, as is its flexibility for future use, but how does it sound?

*CW EXL400.4* - The least expensive of the group, read about it being a clone of highly regarded amplifiers. Is that true?

I haven't heard any of these amps and I'd appreciate hearing from those who have as to their SQ. Please don't hesitate to suggest other options, again SQ-driven. I do have a slight space constraint; the amp can't be longer than ~18". Other than that, I'm open to almost anything.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Do a search. The "sound" of amps has been covered many times here already.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I'm using a relatively inexpensive Pioneer Premier PRS-D4100F, and it "sounds" fantastic.  In fact, it "sounds" a lot like my Alpine and Eclipse did before that... I've heard good things about that Arc KS300.4. Then again, you couldn't go wrong with any of the choices you listed. Find one that does the power you're looking for, has whatever tuning capabilities you need it to, fits your budget and space constraints, and buy it.


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## tcguy85 (Oct 29, 2007)

Digital Designs S4

200 watts rms x 2
and
100 watts rms x2

perfect for a 2-way active setup.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

I'm not entirely sure as to why you guys are putting the word sound in quotes. I get the impression that it points to all amps sounding alike. Perhaps that's true with car audio. I really don't know. With high-end home audio, our systems can easily resolve the sonic attributes of a given component. I can easily give you examples of very different sounding (SS) amplifiers. Granted, my experience with car audio is limited and that's why I'm here asking for advice and guidance. Telling me that it all sounds the same is almost insulting to the concept. If (automotive) gear is veiled to the point of making a component's contribution oblique, why bother? Honestly, I was hoping for better input.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

tcguy85 said:


> Digital Designs S4
> 
> 200 watts rms x 2
> and
> ...


Thanks, I'll look into it.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

FJF said:


> I'm not entirely sure as to why you guys are putting the word sound in quotes. I get the impression that it points to all amps sounding alike. Perhaps that's true with car audio. I really don't know. With high-end home audio, our systems can easily resolve the sonic attributes of a given component. I can easily give you examples of very different sounding (SS) amplifiers. Granted, my experience with car audio is limited and that's why I'm here asking for advice and guidance. Telling me that it all sounds the same is almost insulting to the concept. If (automotive) gear is veiled to the point of making a component's contribution oblique, why bother? Honestly, I was hoping for better input.


Like I said, it's been covered already. The answers are out there if you're willing to look for them
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37931


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Like I said, it's been covered already. The answers are out there if you're willing to look for them
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37931


Thank you for the link. Unfortunately, it did nothing to address my questions, yet it does look like an excuse to further an alternate agenda. I was hoping to hear from folks who've actually heard some of the amplifiers that I listed in a controlled/familiar/comparative setting. If your pointer revolved around the "amplifier myth," I thank you again for your concern. It's been about 15 years since I last heard that all amps sound the same, and I probably could have lived without it. Having read my share of SR in the '70s, the sound of sameness only leads to a morbid smile.

You can help, though. For whatever reason, when I search I'm only able to gather a week's worth of hits. I've tried altering the search parameters to no avail. Is there a reason for this?

It's clear that this thread is heading in a direction contrary to my needs. I would truly like some input from folks with a predisposition toward SQ and a sonic reference point based on listening experience.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

These are wonderful 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44290


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> These are wonderful
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44290


Thanks for the reply. Zuki helped me find an amp for one of my other cars a couple of years ago. I knew him from ECA, where I sometimes lurk, and high-end forums. I haven't heard his amps, but I'll definitely check them out.


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## bjayjr5679 (Nov 8, 2007)

I run all cerwin vega amps they are great.


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

FJF said:


> Thank you for the link. Unfortunately, it did nothing to address my questions, yet it does look like an excuse to further an alternate agenda. I was hoping to hear from folks who've actually heard some of the amplifiers that I listed in a controlled/familiar/comparative setting. If your pointer revolved around the "amplifier myth," I thank you again for your concern. It's been about 15 years since I last heard that all amps sound the same, and I probably could have lived without it. Having read my share of SR in the '70s, the sound of sameness only leads to a morbid smile.
> 
> You can help, though. For whatever reason, when I search I'm only able to gather a week's worth of hits. I've tried altering the search parameters to no avail. Is there a reason for this?
> 
> It's clear that this thread is heading in a direction contrary to my needs. I would truly like some input from folks with a predisposition toward SQ and a sonic reference point based on listening experience.


You know that amps sound different in home-audio. It's no different in car-audio. But do you know WHY it is that way? I think that was the point ca90ss was trying to make


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

FJF said:


> Thanks for the reply. Zuki helped me find an amp for one of my other cars a couple of years ago. I knew him from ECA, where I sometimes lurk, and high-end forums. I haven't heard his amps, but I'll definitely check them out.


I was going to say...

If you *had* to choose an amp from your original list then I would choose the PPI A404 as the old school art series amps are hands down my favorite old school amps.

I run Zuki amps in my car and don't see myself EVER getting rid of them. Unless Patrick decides to make an upgraded model in the future.


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

Here's a good read for you. It received more opinions than facts, just like your question will undoubtedly bring.  
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37716&highlight=amp+selection+mcintosh

Like ca90ss said this subject has been beaten to death. If you're willing to spend some time reading, you'll find whatever answer best suits *your* needs on amp selction. You'll get much more return for your investment with speaker selection, placement, and deadening than buying the "best" SQ amp.

There are guys running low buck amps on this forum with amazing results.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

I didn't mean to come off as sarcastic with my "quotes." I apologize. There are just a lot of threads that pop up here asking about SQ in amps. I'm not trying to push my own agenda as I am simply trying to share what I've learned in my limited experience. People ask "which amp has more SQ??" Well, if you're talking about an unbiased, clear reproduction of the original source, that could really be answered in a lot of different ways. Having a background in home audio, I'm sure you can appreciate the differences between solid state and tube amplifiers. Some like the warm sound of tubes, while others prefer a little more airy, cold sound. Which one has more SQ though? It's subjective. How about the comparison between two of the same type? I personally use a Pioneer Elite at home. To me, it sounds better than the Denon I had before. That's not to say though that it actually reproduces the original sound "better" or more accurately. It just sounds that way to me.  There are so many factors that play into the end sound, it's really hard to tell. 

You mentioned hoping that someone who had experience with these specific amps would chime in. Those of us who made comments weren't meaning to steer your thread in a direction other than you intended; simply trying to help is all (at least I was). Unless someone on this board has done a blind A/B test with more than one of the amps you listed, and preferred it over another for whatever reason, it's going to be hard to really give you the feedback you're looking for. Even at that point, it's still based on their preferences, not yours. Well what's the point of feedback or a review then, you might ask?? I'm right there with ya.  I think reviews can be very helpful in determining the reliability of a product, the customer service of its manufacturer, and many other things. But when it comes down to it, some people love Focal tweeters, and others find them too harsh. I can say, however, that with the exception of CW, whom I've never heard of, the 3 brands you listed have a long track record of solid performance. CW may very well, too. I just have not heard enough about them to comment. Bottom line: Having not heard any of the 4 amps in your list, I wouldn't hesitate to buy the first 3, if they fit my budget and power needs. Hopefully that helps, and sorry if it's not what you're looking for.


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## mmbongo (Nov 23, 2007)

I'm starting to think there is an auto-responder on this board that posts "already been covered, do a search" for every question asked here. Then later the autobot posts a picture of a baby being fed with a spoon. Hilarious!

If the info the OP needed was already here, he wouldn't be asking a question now would he? If all you're going to post is "do a search" then why bother posting at all?


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## ccrobbins (Aug 19, 2006)

I have the Vega exl's other than size I love them.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

MACS said:


> Here's a good read for you. It received more opinions than facts, just like your question will undoubtedly bring.
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37716&highlight=amp+selection+mcintosh
> 
> Like ca90ss said this subject has been beaten to death. If you're willing to spend some time reading, you'll find whatever answer best suits *your* needs on amp selction.


Thank you for the link. I look forward to reading the thread. As I mentioned in my reply to ca90ss, I'm having difficulty generating search results more than a week old. 



> You'll get much more return for your investment with speaker selection, placement, and deadening than buying the "best" SQ amp.


I don't mean to sound rude when I say that I've been involved with audio for almost 30 years, worked in the industry, and setup hundreds upon hundreds of system. You'll have to forgive me for believing that I'm capable of assessing the situation.

I'm not looking for the "best" amp. I just want something that sounds reasonably clear. I know that an Xtant would work for me, but I'm having trouble getting my hands on a A4004 or a 404M. If anyone has one for sale, please PM me.



> There are guys running low buck amps on this forum with amazing results.


I'm sure they are. Cost isn't always positively correlated with sound quality. It's true with home audio and I don't see why car audio is any different. I paid all of $40 for my Xtant 121M and I love it to death.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

Boostedrex said:


> I was going to say...
> 
> If you *had* to choose an amp from your original list then I would choose the PPI A404 as the old school art series amps are hands down my favorite old school amps.


This sounds like the other amps I listed are sonically inferior to the PPI. Is that correct? I like the fact that it's amplifier without internal filters.



> I run Zuki amps in my car and don't see myself EVER getting rid of them. Unless Patrick decides to make an upgraded model in the future.


What other 4ch amps do you like?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

FJF said:


> As I mentioned in my reply to ca90ss, I'm having difficulty generating search results more than a week old.


Try doing an "advanced search" you should be able to choose how far back the search will go

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/search.php


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> Try doing an "advanced search" you should be able to choose how far back the search will go
> 
> http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/search.php


Thank you for the pointer. I only use advanced search and I've tried altering the search parameters with identically frustrating results. I guess I'll try searching the forum with Google.


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## MACS (Oct 3, 2007)

I just did a search with three key words "sound quality amp" and got 500 results spanning a years worth of threads. Much of it is garbage, but a quick scan of the titles will weed out some good reading if you have the time. I think that was the point ca90ss was trying to make.

Many new people come to this forum and simply take the easy way out by posting a new thread instead of searching. It sounds like you at least tried searching and that is a wonderful thing. 

The point I was trying to make is that expensive, high end, or so called SQ oriented amp designs tend to give diminishing returns in car audio. We don't sit in the center of the sound stage, we have road/wind noise, vibrations, resonances, hard surface reflections, etc, etc.. That is where the install can become a better tool over amp selection.

Any of the amps on your list should fit the bill nicely. Pick your favorite looks, power, or price and go with it.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

FJF said:


> This sounds like the other amps I listed are sonically inferior to the PPI. Is that correct? I like the fact that it's amplifier without internal filters.
> 
> 
> 
> What other 4ch amps do you like?


Sonically inferior to the A404? No. But the old Art series amps were overbuilt and had incredible attention to detail paid in the design/construction process. Plus, they were beautiful from a cosmetic perspective as well IMHO. Granted, that doesn't figure in to your needs but I do feel that it should be mentioned.

The Arc that you mentioned is also a very solid amp. As far as 4 channel amps, here's my short list (and these are listed in order of my preference) This list is also comprised only of amps that I have first hand experience with, as that's the only way I could recommend anything to you without talking out of my arse. 

Zuki ELEETS 
Zapco C2K 4.0X
Zapco DC ref 1000.4
Zed Audio Draconia
Sundown SAX100.4
MB Quart QAA4250

Best of luck in your search. 

Zach


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

food for thought  !

From Azngrowers Zed Audio service review thread

quote>
I just got the birthsheets emailed to me. I was quite surprised to see the power of one of the amps. I wont name the brand, as its stirred up TONS of controversy on here the past few months just on the advertised power ratings alone. BUT it did 130 x 4 @ 4 ohm and 180 x 4 @ 2 ohm!!!!
quote>

Stephen Mantz tested these !

Can you find this amount of power that sounds very pleasing to the Ear for less than $405.00 { YEP }
For $325.00



PPI
DLS
Hifonnics
Rockford Fosgate
JL Audio
Linear Power

Oh, yeah 3 ZUKI ELEETS


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

MACS said:


> I just did a search with three key words "sound quality amp" and got 500 results spanning a years worth of threads. Much of it is garbage, but a quick scan of the titles will weed out some good reading if you have the time. I think that was the point ca90ss was trying to make.


I can only say that I'm jealous of those who are able to use Search without restriction.



> Many new people come to this forum and simply take the easy way out by posting a new thread instead of searching. It sounds like you at least tried searching and that is a wonderful thing.


<grin> Starting a thread is my last resort. Lacking other options, here I am. This isn't exactly my idea of fun.



> The point I was trying to make is that expensive, high end, or so called SQ oriented amp designs tend to give diminishing returns in car audio. We don't sit in the center of the sound stage, we have road/wind noise, vibrations, resonances, hard surface reflections, etc, etc.. That is where the install can become a better tool over amp selection.


As uncomfortable as I felt listing some of my experience, I obviously wasn't clear. I understand the constrains very well. It's Audio 101 that most serious audiophiles in my acquaintance managed to conquer before they were out of their teens. I like to think that we've progressed to a higher level of comprehension.

I'd like to introduce an idea based, in part, on the thread you were kind enough to link. The discussion, at least the (sonically) relevant sections, rested on tonality. The tonal balance of a system can easily be altered though tuning, as you know. What cannot be tuned is the system's resolution and that's where component quality comes into play. I realize that a system's ability to resolve the information on a given recording can't be demonstrated on the 'net, so I'm going to end this here. 



> Any of the amps on your list should fit the bill nicely. Pick your favorite looks, power, or price and go with it.


Thank you for your time. After going through about a dozen car amps that sounded like the aural equivalent of a wet sock, about ready to forget about car audio altogether, installing a Xtant X603 changed my mind for the better. I'm sure that Xtant isn't the only fish in the sea and I'd like to find something similar for my current application.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> food for thought  !
> 
> From Azngrowers Zed Audio service review thread
> 
> ...


Very interesting. I'll see if I can find some reviews of Zuki's amps later today.


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## grunt66 (Aug 15, 2008)

I had a chance to listen to the ARC audio KAR 300.4 against the Zapco DC Reference 360.4 and I liked the sound of the Zapco. I don't know how to describe the sound difference but I will try. The Zapco sounded natural and smooth and the ARC sounded a little harsh. I know that you did not mention the Zapco but I was originally set on buying the ARC audio. I called several authorized dealers in San Diego County, Riverside County, and Orange County in California. Each dealer sells both Arc and Zapco and when I explained to them that I was looking for a clean sounding amp each dealer recommended the Zapco over the Arc.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

grunt66 said:


> I had a chance to listen to the ARC audio KAR 300.4 against the Zapco DC Reference 360.4 and I liked the sound of the Zapco. I don't know how to describe the sound difference but I will try. The Zapco sounded natural and smooth and the ARC sounded a little harsh. I know that you did not mention the Zapco but I was originally set on buying the ARC audio. I called several authorized dealers in San Diego County, Riverside County, and Orange County in California. Each dealer sells both Arc and Zapco and when I explained to them that I was looking for a clean sounding amp each dealer recommended the Zapco over the Arc.


Boostedrex mentioned Zapco, as well. I'll take a closer look at the line.

I understand what you're saying about a descriptive language. In high-end, the descriptive language is based on J. Gordon Holt's Audio Glossary originally published ~40 years ago. This isn't to say that everyone uses the descriptors correctly, but at least it's a move toward a common understanding.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

FJF,

Find anything to read on the Zuki Eleets ?


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> FJF,
> 
> Find anything to read on the Zuki Eleets ?


Yes, I have. Quite a bit, actually. I have to say that the amp reads like exactly what I'm looking for and if it delivers as much power as tested, I may be able to kill two birds with one stone.


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

I found most if not all JL amp sounds slightly warmer but detail enough to me, similar sound characteristic like the Harmon Kardon 7.1 receiver that I have in living room. While the PPI PC series that I had sound similar to Denon 6.1 receiver that I also have, but the speakers make the most difference in sound reproduction as I'm sure you already know.

And for those who think all car amps sound alike, I guess they wouldn't mind installing Pyramid, Pyle, and Sparkomatic amps in their car. Maybe someone ought to check out Richard Clark's car and see if you find any Radio Shack amp in there.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

ben805 said:


> I found most if not all JL amp sounds slightly warmer but detail enough to me, similar sound characteristic like the Harmon Kardon 7.1 receiver that I have in living room. While the PPI PC series that I had sound similar to Denon 6.1 receiver that I also have, but the speakers make the most difference in sound reproduction as I'm sure you already know.
> 
> *And for those who think all car amps sound alike, I guess they wouldn't mind installing Pyramid, Pyle, and Sparkomatic amps in their car. Maybe someone ought to check out Richard Clark's car and see if you find any Radio Shack amp in there.*


Richard Clark iirc never actually built a car stereo but he bought the Speaker Works GN which ran off the shelf Alpines. It was all about the install and the processor/noise gate with that car not the amps.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

ben805 said:


> I
> And for those who think all car amps sound alike, I guess they wouldn't mind installing Pyramid, Pyle, and Sparkomatic amps in their car. Maybe someone ought to check out Richard Clark's car and see if you find any Radio Shack amp in there.


I've never seen anyone say that all amps sound exactly the same. What has been said before is that we know what parameters make amplifiers sound different and when operated below clipping and at the same power level both amps can be made to sound the same.

Here's a couple amps I own. One's a Pyramid and the other is a Boss. As long as the noise floor is sufficient I will be using one of these 2 amps in my system.


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

chefhow said:


> Richard Clark iirc never actually built a car stereo but he bought the Speaker Works GN which ran off the shelf Alpines. It was all about the install and the processor/noise gate with that car not the amps.


true, but I bet Richard would never ever put Radio Shack Optimus amps in his cars if he were to install anything.  the amp selection is still a piece of the puzzle, have you seen anybody take home trophies in any IASCA events from running Pyramid, Pyle, or Sparkomatic amps?


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> I've never seen anyone say that all amps sound exactly the same. What has been said before is that we know what parameters make amplifiers sound different and when operated below clipping and at the same power level both amps can be made to sound the same.
> 
> Here's a couple amps I own. One's a Pyramid and the other is a Boss. As long as the noise floor is sufficient I will be using one of these 2 amps in my system.
> 
> ...


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> I've never seen anyone say that all amps sound exactly the same. What has been said before is that we know what parameters make amplifiers sound different and when operated below clipping and at the same power level both amps can be made to sound the same.
> 
> Here's a couple amps I own. One's a Pyramid and the other is a Boss. As long as the noise floor is sufficient I will be using one of these 2 amps in my system.


hmm.....yea, I wonder why anybody would pay an arm and leg for high end stuff like Zapco, etc. They ought to stick with Jensen or Pyramid. Afterall....it really doesn't matter what amp you run as long as the noise floor is sufficient as you suggested. Arc Audio....pffff...what a complete waste of money.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

ben805 said:


> hmm.....yea, I wonder why anybody would pay an arm and leg for high end stuff like Zapco, etc. They ought to stick with Jensen or Pyramid. Afterall....it really doesn't matter what amp you run as long as the noise floor is sufficient as you suggested. Arc Audio....pffff...what a complete waste of money.


While I'm using one of those amps I will have McIntosh, Adcom, Linear Power, Xtant, Soundstream, Arc and several others sitting on the shelf.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

> *hmm.....yea, I wonder why anybody would pay an arm and leg for high end stuff like Zapco, etc.* They ought to stick with Jensen or Pyramid. Afterall....it really doesn't matter what amp you run as long as the noise floor is sufficient as you suggested. Arc Audio....pffff...what a complete waste of money.


As soon as you figure that out you will know how to spend your money and not get things you don't need. Look into seeing what you get, by the way none of which has to do with higher SQ watts within the rated output.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

Guys, this thread is about helping me find an amplifier, not a sophomoric objectivist/subjectvist debate. It's as if I'm thrown back in time, though Julian Hirsch would be proud. Believe it or not, there's a whole world of audio that sees such outings as displays of religious zeal. Please keep them out of my thread.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Double Post, sorry about that


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

ben805 said:


> hmm.....yea, I wonder why anybody would pay an arm and leg for high end stuff like Zapco, etc. They ought to stick with Jensen or Pyramid. Afterall....it really doesn't matter what amp you run as long as the noise floor is sufficient as you suggested. Arc Audio....pffff...what a complete waste of money.



With that line of thinking its no wonder why half the great older amp companies turned to the type of business they did. I would put any older/original Optimus, Jensen, Boss, Legacy or Alphasonic up against a Zapco or Arc amp and you couldnt tell me which is which.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

Well, so much for my request. Religious ferver triumphs all. Have fun, guys. I'm done.

A sincere thanks to all who've tried to lend me a helping hand with no desire to further a political agenda based on utter ignorance. Ironically, that same ignorance is being promoted as some sort of convoluted enlightenment. Unbelievable.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

So you ask yourself. "Why do they sound differently then, cuz I knowwww they do"

2 reasons:

1. Lack of power is forcing you to compress your dynamic peaks by clipping your amp in order to have your lower passages loud enough. Very common in the noisy environment of a car. SQ in the clipping range of your amp does exist and is clearly audible depending on the amp used. 

2. You actually hear what you expect to hear. Once you remove that factor by doing proper double blind comparisons you loose that grasp and everything sounds the same.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

FJF said:


> Well, so much for my request. Religious ferver triumphs all. Have fun, guys. I'm done.
> 
> A sincere thanks to all who've tried to lend me a helping hand with no desire to further a political agenda based on utter ignorance. Ironically, that same ignorance is being promoted as some sort of convoluted enlightenment. Unbelievable.


Amen! 

I'd get the PPI cuz they sound good when I've heard them and they're prettier.


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## caver50 (Sep 2, 2007)

Many years ago I owned a PPI AX400 and personally I didn't see anything special about it. It had a tendency to over heat and would cut off occasionlly. No cooling fans or heat sinks that I could see but, It was a nice looking amp.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

FJF said:


> with no desire to further a political agenda based on utter ignorance. Ironically, that same ignorance is being promoted as some sort of convoluted enlightenment. Unbelievable.


I'd wager to say the ignorance lies within your camp. 

Come back when you have come up with a scientific experiment to prove us wrong.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

I would get a class AB for my sq front stage... I would stay away from Class D at all costs.


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## BoostedNihilist (Mar 3, 2008)

take amp a
take amp b

Take an oscilloscope
take a tone generator

take amp a and put a 2k tone thorugh it
take amp b and put a 2k tone through it

If those tones look the same on the oscilloscope they will sound the same at your ear.

Also, if the amp is doing it's job the only thing that will change with your perfect sinewave is the amplitude (see the word amp in there?)

Amplifiers serve the purpose of modifying the amplitude of a wave, not changing the cycle of that wave... this would be anti-sq to say the least.

Noise shelf aside they should recreate the music as it is presented to them period.

If all amps sound different, you tell us which one is the best.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

I have a question for all of the amp sonics believers; Do you believe that 2 amps when operated at the same power and below clipping can be made to sound the same? If the answer is yes then why spend the extra money on "SQ" amps? If the answer is no then you have proven your ignorance and there is no need to further this discussion.


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## caver50 (Sep 2, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> I have a question for all of the amp sonics believers; Do you believe that 2 amps when operated at the same power and below clipping can be made to sound the same? If the answer is yes then why spend the extra money on "SQ" amps? If the answer is no then you have proven your ignorance and there is no need to further this discussion.


Don't some amps use higher quality parts that last longer. Saving on repairs or buying new amps. Just some other factors to consider. Can an average Joe like me know these things?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

caver50 said:


> Don't some amps use higher quality parts that last longer. Saving on repairs or buying new amps. Just some other factors to consider. Can an average Joe like me know these things?


Yup, that and other things, but none of which make paying $3000 versus $400.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

caver50 said:


> Don't some amps use higher quality parts that last longer. Saving on repairs or buying new amps. Just some other factors to consider. Can an average Joe like me know these things?


Yes, there are reasons to buy one amp over another but "SQ" isn't one of them. Things like build quality, reliability, aesthetics, features and size are all important factors when choosing an amp.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

I'm with ca90ss on this one. If your ears are so refined that you can tell a difference from amp to amp (within a couple of parameters) and you are so competely confident that you can. 

Put your $10,000 up against the aforementioned Richard Clark's $10,000 and go win yourself 10 grand.

Here's the link...

http://www.davidnavone.com/a2000/Amp challenge 2001 Revision.pdf


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## caver50 (Sep 2, 2007)

imjustjason said:


> I'm with ca90ss on this one. If your ears are so refined that you can tell a difference from amp to amp (within a couple of parameters) and you are so competely confident that you can.
> 
> Put your $10,000 up against the aforementioned Richard Clark's $10,000 and go win yourself 10 grand.
> 
> ...


Yep, I remember Richard Clark's wager. I'am supprised someone hasn't won that bet yet, which proves it would be difficult to tell the difference. 

I don't mean to hijack this thread but, I have a question too. I've been told that some exspensive amps with..... oh lets say 75 watts would equal to or stronger than a less expensive amp at 150 watts. Just curious, why is that or is it true?


----------



## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> Yes, there are reasons to buy one amp over another but "SQ" isn't one of them. Things like build quality, reliability, aesthetics, features and size are all important factors when choosing an amp.


Thank you. Thank God.  I mentioned that back on page 1 and nearly got lynched. Then after apologizing and trying to reiterate my point without coming off like an ass, the OP addressed everyones' responses but mine. Not sure who has a political agenda around here... definitely not me. I was merely trying to help. People who say "well if no amp sounds different, run Boss and Legacy" are ignorant. "SQ" (there's those damn quotations again) isn't the reason to spend more on one amp than another. Reliability, efficiency, and build quality are. If you want to run Boss, Legacy, or Jensen, go for the gold. Try pushing them too hard, and they'll probably give way before an Arc or PPI would, simply because of the build quality. Just my humble opinion.


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

caver50 said:


> I don't mean to hijack this thread but, I have a question too. I've been told that some exspensive amps with..... oh lets say 75 watts would equal to or stronger than a less expensive amp at 150 watts. Just curious, why is that or is it true?


That's hard to answer without measuring the amps in question.

Higher quality amps will generally meet or exceed rated power while a cheaper amp like a Pyle or Legacy may only make 50% or less of their rated power.


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## caver50 (Sep 2, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> That's hard to answer without measuring the amps in question.
> 
> Higher quality amps will generally meet or exceed rated power while a cheaper amp like a Pyle or Legacy may only make 50% or less of their rated power.


Higher line of Zapco vs lower line of Zapco. Big price difference.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

caver50 said:


> Higher line of Zapco vs lower line of Zapco. Big price difference.


I'm sure there's a build quality difference between the I-Force and C2K but if you took 1 of each that made the same actual power I doubt there would be an audible difference.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> I'm sure there's a build quality difference between the I-Force and C2K but if you took 1 of each that made the same actual power I doubt there would be an audible difference.


No way. There TOTALLY would be...


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## caver50 (Sep 2, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> I'm sure there's a build quality difference between the I-Force and C2K but if you took 1 of each that made the same actual power I doubt there would be an audible difference.


Good answer. I have three Zapco 500M Reference amps, (same as 500.1)
for about 3 years now and they have been Rock solid. No problems at all, very strong but cost much less than the C2Ks. So how could I benifit from a 
C2K with the same watts?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

caver50 said:


> So how could I benifit from a
> C2K with the same watts?


Honestly you probably wouldn't. The C2K may have better build quality which may translate to better reliability in the long run but from a sonic perspective I think it would be a waste.


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## spliflover (May 31, 2008)

buy 4 mono amps and you wont have the problem your complaining about.


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

you guys crack me up...enjoy your pyramid, boss, jensen, radio shack and pyle amps. LOL


ignorance is bliss.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

ben805 said:


> you guys crack me up...enjoy your pyramid, boss, jensen, radio shack and pyle amps. LOL
> 
> 
> ignorance is bliss.


Prove us wrong
http://www.davidnavone.com/a2000/Amp%20challenge%202001%20Revision.pdf


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## matt62485 (Jun 7, 2008)

ben805 said:


> you guys crack me up...enjoy your pyramid, boss, jensen, radio shack and pyle amps. LOL
> 
> 
> ignorance is bliss.


sure is


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## matt62485 (Jun 7, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> Prove us wrong
> http://www.davidnavone.com/a2000/Amp%20challenge%202001%20Revision.pdf


haha i was waitin on someone to step in


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

Like I said, I guess those who bought Zapco and other high end gears must of been getting ripped off big time. Who need reliability when you can get some Pyramid for 100x less, hell...you can afford to throw them away once a year. LOL maybe you should try talking them into buying Pyramid and Boss like yours, and promote those amps in competition events, I'm sure these bad boys would bring home many trophies.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

ben805 said:


> Like I said, I guess those who bought Zapco and other high end gears must of been getting ripped off big time, maybe you should try talking them into buying Pyramid and Boss like yours, and promote those amps in competition events, I'm sure they will bring home many trophies.


So, maybe I misunderstand your post... are you saying that the person who spends the most wins the trophies??

I honestly think you are missing the point completely.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

ben805 said:


> Like I said, I guess those who bought Zapco and other high end gears must of been getting ripped off big time, maybe you should try talking them into buying Pyramid and Boss like yours, and promote those amps in competition events, I'm sure they will bring home many trophies.


Go make some money on the above links then. 

No? You must feel bad taking their money huh, what a good guy!


----------



## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Go make some money on the above links then.
> 
> No? You must feel bad taking their money huh, what a good guy!



if you are willing to pay the $200 fees, I'll take the test ANYTIME, ANYDAY.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

ben805 said:


> Like I said, I guess those who bought Zapco and other high end gears must of been getting ripped off big time, maybe you should try talking them into buying Pyramid and Boss like yours, and promote those amps in competition events, I'm sure they will bring home many trophies.


You keep trying to avoid answering the questions being asked. I'ts ok, just further proof that you have no proof to back up your claims.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

ben805 said:


> if you are willing to pay the $200 fees, I'll take the test ANYTIME, ANYDAY.


But you get $10,000 for you investment. Now I'm no genius, as you can obviously tell from what I think about amp sonics, but it sure seems like a somewhat decent investment. Besides you would be famous for being the first person to do it, famous I tell you!


----------



## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> So, maybe I misunderstand your post... are you saying that the person who spends the most wins the trophies??
> 
> I honestly think you are missing the point completely.


I never said that.

Installation, source unit, and other factors affect the overall sound quality, but amp is also part of the puzzle, if what you guys said are true, then why don't you see more people running radio shack and pyramid amps in SQ or SPL competition?? hmmm??


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

ben805 said:


> if you are willing to pay the $200 fees, I'll take the test ANYTIME, ANYDAY.


If you are so certian there is a difference why not use your own money?


----------



## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

ben805 said:


> if you are willing to pay the $200 fees, I'll take the test ANYTIME, ANYDAY.


I'll pay it......but when you fail you pay me $10,000. Someone as confident as you should have no problem with those terms.


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> But you get $10,000 for you investment. Now I'm no genius, as you can obviously tell from what I think about amp sonics, but it sure seems like a somewhat decent investment. Besides you would be famous for being the first person to do it, famous I tell you!


who give a damn about the $10000, I'm not that desperate....$10000 isn't even enough to cover my family vacation, so....how about you put the money down where you mouth is, pay up the $200 fees, I go take the test, and you can keep the $10000?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

ben805 said:


> I never said that.
> 
> Installation, source unit, and other factors affect the overall sound quality, but amp is also part of the puzzle, if what you guys said are true, then why don't you see more people running radio shack and pyramid amps in SQ or SPL competition?? hmmm??


Why don't people drive only cheap cars if they get you to the same place as an expensive car? Because they don't have to. 

Amps are the same, you pay and get extra **** that has nothing to do with the main objective at hand, to get somewhere or to amplify the signal.


----------



## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

t3sn4f2 said:


> But you get $10,000 for you investment. Now I'm no genius, as you can obviously tell from what I think about amp sonics, but it sure seems like a somewhat decent investment. Besides you would be famous for being the first person to do it, famous I tell you!


Talk about a return on your investment... $200 to get $10,000 for a simple day of comparing sound... I don't see how it could be any better than that.


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> If you are so certian there is a difference why not use your own money?



because I'm not as hell bent as some of you guys about all this Richard Clark scam, isn't it obvious enough?


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

ben805 said:


> who give a damn about the $10000, I'm not that desperate....$10000 isn't even enough to cover my family vacation, so....how about you put the money down where you mouth is, pay up the $200 fees, I go take the test, and you can keep the $10000?


I am not about to waste $200. You will not be able to tell any difference.

A man of your obvious means should have no problem taking the test.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

ben805 said:


> who give a damn about the $10000, I'm not that desperate....$10000 isn't even enough to cover my family vacation, so....how about you put the money down where you mouth is, pay up the $200 fees, I go take the test, and you can keep the $10000?


But I don't like wasting my money


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Why don't people drive only cheap cars if they get you to the same place as an expensive car? Because they don't have to.
> 
> Amps are the same, you pay and get extra **** that has nothing to do with the main objective at hand, to get somewhere or to amplify the signal.


extra **** my ass, if like you said an amp is an amp is an amp, the cheap amps like Pyramid and Boss have just as much features as the high end stuff, that's a lame excuse to buy the high end stuff...


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

imjustjason said:


> Talk about a return on your investment... $200 to get $10,000 for a simple day of comparing sound... I don't see how it could be any better than that.



Investment? it's more like a scam...


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

ben805 said:


> Investment? it's more like a scam...


How is it a scam... because you can't tell any difference... I am not saying, I'm just saying.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

ben805 said:


> extra **** my ass, if like you said an amp is an amp is an amp, the cheap amps like Pyramid and Boss have just as much features as the high end stuff, that's a lame excuse to buy the high end stuff...


Pyramids have the same processing capabilities as a DC Ref? To me, there are two main reasons to upgrade your amplifiers: Either more power, or more processing capabilities. Nobody ever said Pyramid or Boss had the same "features" as the higher end stuff. As far as ignorance being bliss, ignorance could also be demonstrated by spending $4,000 on amplification because it's going to "sound" better.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

ben805 said:


> extra **** my ass, if like you said an amp is an amp is an amp, the cheap amps like Pyramid and Boss have just as much features as the high end stuff, that's a lame excuse to buy the high end stuff...


You got me there :blush:. Oh no wait! I never said that, almost got me there you little rascal. 

Well anyways, everyone can buy what they like for whatever they like, just don't ******** yourself as to the reason you are doing so, it not healthy for you. 

There are much better blisses then the one ignorance brings


----------



## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

ben805 said:


> I never said that.
> 
> Installation, source unit, and other factors affect the overall sound quality, but amp is also part of the puzzle, if what you guys said are true, then why don't you see more people running radio shack and pyramid amps in SQ or SPL competition?? hmmm??



After all the Richard this Richard that talk, you guys still failed to explain why you don't see competitors use Pyramid, Pyle and Rat shack amp for sound off. Reliability isn't an excuse not to use them, and lots of these amps have as much features as the high end stuff, they're so cheap you can afford to get a dozen for spare....


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

ben805 said:


> After all the Richard this Richard that talk, you guys still failed to explain why you don't see competitors use Pyramid, Pyle and Rat shack amp for sound off. Reliability isn't an excuse not to use them, and lots of these amps have as much features as the high end stuff, they're so cheap you can afford to get a dozen for spare....


The first reason that comes to mind for me is Pyramid, Pyle... all of you other favorite amps to bash rate themselves at about twice what they can really do... that puts you in the wrong power class from the m'fin giddy up, then there are the elitist such as yourself that would walk right on by a car that has this sort of equipment installed.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

ben805 said:


> After all the Richard this Richard that talk, you guys still failed to explain why you don't see competitors use Pyramid, Pyle and Rat shack amp for sound off. Reliability isn't an excuse not to use them, and lots of these amps have as much features as the high end stuff, they're so cheap you can afford to get a dozen for spare....


Just a shot in the dark, but it may be the same reason why you will never see a row of Hyundai Accents in a car show.  People who go to a show to display something they're proud of would be laughed out of a car show by their fellow enthusiasts for using anything considered low end. A judges' biased opinion may have something to do with it as well.  However, I am willing to bet that if I did not have to list my installed equipment, I could pull into a SQ competition using lower end amplification, and assuming everything else was in order, I'd do pretty well. I'm also willing to bet not one person would climb in my truck and say "man that sounds ****ty. You must be using a Pyramid amp."


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

mikey7182 said:


> Pyramids have the same processing capabilities as a DC Ref? To me, there are two main reasons to upgrade your amplifiers: Either more power, or more processing capabilities. Nobody ever said Pyramid or Boss had the same "features" as the higher end stuff. As far as ignorance being bliss, ignorance could also be demonstrated by spending $4,000 on amplification because it's going to "sound" better.


you buy an amp to do what? amplification like you said, the extra features and processing are just icing on cake, if you need processing....you buy a processor!! again...that's a lame excuse to pay the extra for an expensive amp.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Since when is competition the pinnacle of sound quality?


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

mikey7182 said:


> Just a shot in the dark, but it may be the same reason why you will never see a row of Hyundai Accents in a car show.  People who go to a show to display something they're proud of would be laughed out of a car show by their fellow enthusiasts for using anything considered low end. A judges' biased opinion may have something to do with it as well.  However, I am willing to bet that if I did not have to list my installed equipment, I could pull into a SQ competition using lower end amplification, and assuming everything else was in order, I'd do pretty well. I'm also willing to bet not one person would climb in my truck and say "man that sounds ****ty. You must be using a Pyramid amp."


You'll be surprise how much more bling you can get from cheap amps, let me tell you...A HELL LOT MORE BLING BLING!! LOL zapco and arc audio are plain and boring...ain't got nothing to show other than bragging right, so...what gives?


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

ca90ss said:


> Since when is competition the pinnacle of sound quality?


Epic truth there. I remember that only like 30 points out of 700 something (I know that's probably wrong) was for the "sound quality," that's not much weight.


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## mikey7182 (Jan 16, 2008)

ben805 said:


> You'll be surprise how much more bling you can get from cheap amps, let me tell you...A HELL LOT MORE BLING BLING!! LOL zapco and arc audio are plain and boring...ain't got nothing to show other than bragging right, so...what gives?


Once again, not the point. You seem like someone who would waltz by an install consisting of Pyle or Pyramid amps and scoff. That's fine. I wasn't referring to bling factor.

This really isn't an argument either side is going to win. It's funny too, because you spending a ton of money on amps really doesn't impact those of us who believe otherwise at all.  It's an age-old argument, and will keep going long after we're all gone. So feel free to continue to purchase higher end amps for their SQ, and we'll stick to our cheapies. 

End of conversation (for me anyway).


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> Since when is competition the pinnacle of sound quality?


Then you wouldn't have any problem to bring home trophies and prizes and all the free ****s by competing with your Pyramid amp then now would you? you guys keep talking about being an investment to take the Richard test, I mean, hell...you can earn a hell lot more money than what Richard Clark can offer if you keep winning sound off with your kicks ass amps!


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

ben805 said:


> Then you wouldn't have any problem to bring home trophies and prizes and all the free ****s by competing with your Pyramid amp then now would you? you guys keep talking about being an investment to take the Richard test, I mean, hell...you can earn a hell lot more money than what Richard Clark can offer if you keep winning sound off with your kicks ass amps!


Dude?!?


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> You got me there :blush:. Oh no wait! I never said that, almost got me there you little rascal.
> 
> Well anyways, everyone can buy what they like for whatever they like, just don't ******** yourself as to the reason you are doing so, it not healthy for you.
> 
> There are much better blisses then the one ignorance brings


I know most folks in this forum frown on eD stuff, but that's what I run my components with (eD Nine.2X) because it's cheap and it has plenty of power to run them. No where near as expensive as Zapco, but i am not one to ******** myself into thinking that my eD amp sound exactly the same like Zapco after factoring out x'over point and setting both amps to put out the same amount of unclipped power.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

ben805 said:


> Then you wouldn't have any problem to bring home trophies and prizes and all the free ****s by competing with your Pyramid amp then now would you? you guys keep talking about being an investment to take the Richard test, I mean, hell...you can earn a hell lot more money than what Richard Clark can offer if you keep winning sound off with your kicks ass amps!



I would put my Aura RPM amps that cost under $90 new up against your Zapco or Arc amps that cost over twice as much with the same rated power and do just as well. But than Im not as cool since they are really cheap and not as well known, I mean after all they are just Aura's.....

And for the record I changed from eD's to the Aura's because the eD's kept cutting out on me and for no other reason. They sound the same.... and I still use eD flatcone subs


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

ben805 said:


> I know most folks in this forum frown on eD stuff, but that's what I run my components with (eD Nine.2X) because it's cheap and it has plenty of power to run them. No where near as expensive as Zapco, but i am not one to ******** myself into thinking that my eD amp sound exactly the same like Zapco after factoring out x'over point and setting both amps to put out the same amount of unclipped power.


You don't own a Zapco and have never done a direct comparison but you're positive there's a difference. If you're positive there's a difference then tell us exactly why and what the differences are.

Has it ever occured to you that some of us may have actually used some of these so called "high end" amps and directly compared them to some of the cheaper alternatives before coming to our conclusions?

Someone with no actual experience vs. someone with actual experience. Hmmm.........who should we believe??? That's a tough one.


----------



## Calum (Aug 13, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> As soon as you figure that out you will know how to spend your money and not get things you don't need.



Any chance you'd be willing to explain this than? I mean, this site exists to allow people to pass on knowledge. Instead of just trying to say that those that think amps sound different from each other are ignorant, is there a possibility of educating. 

I'll see if I can throw out a couple examples: Efficiency, amperage draw in a car install is pretty important, hence new products like the Alpine PDX and JL HD amps. Head room, higher end amps (from my experience at least) tend to be a little more sonically forgiving as they start to clip. Processor quality, sure the lower end amps may have a front end processor with similar crossovers and what not, but the quality of those components isn’t as good as the high end gear, and that can color the sound.

Am I on the right track at all? Are these some of the reasons why one would chose to buy the more expensive stuff?

BTW, I'm another one that holds the opinion that amplifiers sound different from each other. I have this opinion because I've done testing while trying to pick an amp and I was able to tell a difference. Maybe it was preconception causing bias, I don't know. I'm willing to admit it's possible but I do still believe there are differences. The amp I chose was the cheaper and uglier amp out of the two that I was testing. I found the midbass stronger and the overall sound warmer and less fatiguing.


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## ben805 (Aug 26, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> You don't own a Zapco and have never done a direct comparison but you're positive there's a difference. If you're positive there's a difference then tell us exactly why and what the differences are.
> 
> Has it ever occured to you that some of us may have actually used some of these so called "high end" amps and directly compared them to some of the cheaper alternatives before coming to our conclusions?
> 
> Someone with no actual experience vs. someone with actual experience. Hmmm.........who should we believe??? That's a tough one.


I do not own any Zapco doesn't mean I have not listened to them or know someone who do. I had a few PPI Art series, Orion HCCA and soundstream back in the days, not necessary "high end" but I certainly can hear the difference when I swapped them out for the older kicker and RF that I had laying around, same car, same installation, same x'over point, same power feeding the same components and sub(set gain with DMM). 

One thing that came to mind in SQ differences also has something to do with damping factor, it's not apparent when running tweeters and mid, but midbass and subs sure sounded different to me. I guess now someone is going to jump in and argue that we can't practically hear the differences in amp with >100 DF.  

Some amps sounded warmer, some are brighter, most likely due to different electronic components(capacitors, etc) being use in different designs. Believe whatever you want, if you can't hear any differences, you are sure blessed, and I'm sure you can save a tons of money by using Pyramid and Pyle, as I'm sure Richard Clark himself is using bunch of Radio Shack stuff in his HT or car, afterall...he know better than everyone else.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

What causes amps to sound different?
Power 
Gain
Noise
Frequency response
Distortion

These are the only parameters that will affect the way an amp sounds.

Now that we know what the variables are we can come up with a way to eliminate these variables and determine if there are still audible differences in sound after these variables have been eliminated. Let's come up with a name for this test. I suggest we call it "The $10,000 amp challenge" (I swear I came up with that all on my own). We'll let anyone who wants to take the test and if anyone is able to pick the correct amp 24/24 times we'll pay them $10,000. 

Anyone else think this is a good idea?


----------



## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

ca90ss said:


> What causes amps to sound different?
> Power
> Gain
> Noise
> ...


I think that is an excellent idea... and that's a VERY original name for your test.

I think there should be like a $200 fee to take the test though, you wouldn't want to waste your time for nothing in return... but it's a good idea!


----------



## ~thematt~ (Sep 14, 2007)

You cant take the test anymore. RC stopped doing it because ignorance is just too widespread! In the end, the caveats are what the caveats are. There will always be ignorance. 

Amps that measure the same, sound the same. Amps that measure different, sound different. Different sounds from different amps are because they have different measurements. 

We can replicate those measurements. Thats the whole point. I can make your Pyle sound like an Arc, any day of the week. Except when I turn it up, and the Pyle runs out of steam. 

Why do I run with Arc SE's? Because they are pretty, fairly exclusive (no-one else here uses them), huge power ratings, gains-per-channel, I got them handsigned by Robert Zeff himself and they are reliable. 

It wasnt cause they sound good, thats for sure.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Calum said:


> *Any chance you'd be willing to explain this than? I mean, this site exists to allow people to pass on knowledge. Instead of just trying to say that those that think amps sound different from each other are ignorant, is there a possibility of educating. *
> 
> I'll see if I can throw out a couple examples: Efficiency, amperage draw in a car install is pretty important, hence new products like the Alpine PDX and JL HD amps. Head room, higher end amps (from my experience at least) tend to be a little more sonically forgiving as they start to clip. Processor quality, sure the lower end amps may have a front end processor with similar crossovers and what not, but the quality of those components isn’t as good as the high end gear, and that can color the sound.
> 
> ...


Any chance you can read the whole thread and then tell me if you think I should go out of my way to teach that person something?

Any chance the reasons have been giving billions of times over and a simple search would tell anyone all those reasons (even all those who do deserve to know). Or is it also wrong not to spoon feed? Please tell me so I can correct myself.......


----------



## khanhfat (Feb 4, 2008)

audison... if you have the money... their amp is mostly used in bridgemode for best power.. otherwise it's just like other 4ch amp.


depending on what speakers you are using some amps will work it it perfectly.


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## Calum (Aug 13, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Any chance you can read the whole thread and then tell me if you think I should go out of my way to teach that person something?
> 
> Any chance the reasons have been giving billions of times over and a simple search would tell anyone all those reasons (even all those who do deserve to know). Or is it also wrong not to spoon feed? Please tell me so I can correct myself.......



Look man, I'm not here to argue. If you don't want to share some knowledge, or contribute to the conversation, that's cool. I did read the whole thread but I must admit, I didn't go through and attempt to see "who started it." Sorry, I'm just not into that crap. 

I did a quick search on google and this was the first hit I got. I don't know who this guy is, nor what he's education/background is but he's got some interesting points. http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm 

Sometimes I think we're coming to similar conclusions, just expressing it differently. Sure, with enough processing you can make anything sound like anything else. But to me that's not the point. I'm interested in how different amps sound out of the box.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

Calum said:


> Look man, I'm not here to argue. If you don't want to share some knowledge, or contribute to the conversation, that's cool. I did read the whole thread but I must admit, I didn't go through and attempt to see "who started it." *Sorry, I'm just not into that crap.*
> 
> I did a quick search on google and this was the first hit I got. I don't know who this guy is, nor what he's education/background is but he's got some interesting points. http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm
> 
> Sometimes I think we're coming to similar conclusions, just expressing it differently. Sure, with enough processing you can make anything sound like anything else. But to me that's not the point. I'm interested in how different amps sound out of the box.


Why did you try to call me out then?


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## OgreDave (Jul 13, 2005)

Sand in vaginas.


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## imjustjason (Jun 26, 2006)

my $0.02


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## Calum (Aug 13, 2008)

t3sn4f2 said:


> Why did you try to call me out then?


I wasn't trying to call you out, I was just trying to get something constructive out of this crap of a thread.


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## snaimpally (Mar 5, 2008)

FJF said:


> I need a 4ch amp for an active system. I'm looking for SQ first and foremost - clarity and detail is key. By reading the forum and going through the classifieds, several choices seem like a good fit for my system:
> 
> *PPI A404* - It reads like a great sounding amp, but I'm a little put-off by the need for plugs.
> 
> ...


I assume you mean the Cerwin Vega (CV) EXL400.4. The amp is designed by Robert Zeff who also designs Clarion, Zapco, and Arc Audio amps. Its the same circuit board used in comparable amps. The CV amps originally sold for several hundred dollars and were being blown out after CV didn't sell what they had hoped to. I think they are still available for around $100 on the forum and on ebay. Get one.

Unless you are planning to run really hi-end components and spend a lot of time doing custom work in your car to make it the next IASCA champion, you are probably not going to notice much difference, if any, between these amps. All of these amps are highly regarded and will do the job if all you want is to run some mid-level speakers. Yes, amps do have different sonic signatures, but all of these are highly regarded and should all be pretty good for your purpose. Also, unless you have really good drivers, most of the subtleties of the sonic signature will be hard for you to detect.

Which leads to the question, what speakers were you planning to use with this amp? Active or passive? What kind of car? What have you done in the way of sound deadening? As npdang likes to say, a speaker is only as good as the environment its placed in.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

snaimpally said:


> I assume you mean the Cerwin Vega (CV) EXL400.4.


Yes, that's right. My apologies for making CV sound like it was said by Elmer Fudd. <blush>



> The amp is designed by Robert Zeff who also designs Clarion, Zapco, and Arc Audio amps. Its the same circuit board used in comparable amps. The CV amps originally sold for several hundred dollars and were being blown out after CV didn't sell what they had hoped to. I think they are still available for around $100 on the forum and on ebay. Get one.
> 
> Unless you are planning to run really hi-end components and spend a lot of time doing custom work in your car to make it the next IASCA champion, you are probably not going to notice much difference, if any, between these amps. All of these amps are highly regarded and will do the job if all you want is to run some mid-level speakers. Yes, amps do have different sonic signatures, but all of these are highly regarded and should all be pretty good for your purpose. Also, unless you have really good drivers, most of the subtleties of the sonic signature will be hard for you to detect.


I appreciate the relevant advice. Thank you.

At one point, I wouldn't have cared about a car system. No offence meant to anyone here, but car audio sounds like a pile of steaming crap compared to good (home) audio. As I mentioned, I listed to about a dozen car amps from various manufacturers. They all sounded muffled and closed-in. I'm not discussing their tonal balance, but their resolution. Essentially, they served as aural erasers, effectively eliminating fine detail, transparency and instrumental delineation from any and every recording. Hearing an Xtant X403 made me believe that improvements can be made for the better when selecting an (automotive) amplifier.

I certainly had no trouble hearing its effect with relatively humble JL XR525s and a Nak CD400. I'm not saying this to debate any of the points made, but to illustrate that aural improvements with hardware selection can be beneficial, given the scope of the components (themselves) and listener training, which BTW is an important function of all valid DBT protocols. <grin> Ask me how I know.



> Which leads to the question, what speakers were you planning to use with this amp? Active or passive? What kind of car? What have you done in the way of sound deadening? As npdang likes to say, a speaker is only as good as the environment its placed in.


This will be gong into a car I use for work - Kia Sedona minivan. It's surprisingly quiet and rattle/squeak-free, and I have a roll of RAAMmat that I'll be installing along with the system. 

I'll be using a Boston SL60 speakers in an active config with a Pioneer 880PRS. Since this thread, I've made the decision to use the gear that I have on hand, which includes the components listed above, as well as a Diamond D3 400.4 (bridged for the mids) and a JBL GTX100S on the tweeters. Instead of getting equipment for this project, I decided to upgrade the system in my Evo with an ARC mini and an Alpine HU. Both are on their way. Frankly, I'm much more excited about it.

BTW, I'm astonished to see this thread moved to the Search forum, seeing that I explained several times that I'm unable to gather more than a week's worth of hits through search. Obviously the problem is on my end, but I don't see the need to add insult to injury. As an admin on another forum, I can only say that this was uncalled for, given the circumstances. I asked for help, because I need it, and I got this in return. Bad show, guys.


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## wintensive (Sep 16, 2008)

BRAX x2400 is the best sounding amp I have ever heard. Can power any speakers up to at least 250 watt RMS. I used mine to power 6 speakers. It was awesome (and its for sale...classifieds)


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## lyttleviet (Sep 11, 2008)

Ill take the KS300.4 . let me know if you need one =P.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

Thanks for the replies, guys. As the OP, I'm going to point this thread in another direction and ask for help once again.

I'm looking for a set of 6.5" components for another project. Physically, the woofers need to be less than ~2.75" deep. I'd like to spend $200-$350. Here's my problem. Having searched the site with Google, as well as having gone through the forums manually over the last few weeks, I still have no idea what my speaker choices might sound like. It seems like the car audio community either lacks a set of commonly used and understood (sonic) descriptors, or I may not be understanding fully what was said. In any case, I'm a little lost.

I'm looking for a very detailed, open-sounding, clear, "fast" set of speakers. To give an automotive reference point, I want the opposite of ID Chameleons. Referencing to home audio, I'm looking for a presentation similar to Dunlavy or Wilson. I can live with a little warmth in the sound as long as it doesn't make the music sound lifeless. I'm considering Alpine SPX, Pioneer 720PRS, and Polk SR6500 strictly based on what I've read. I'm a little frustrated by not being able to hear the speakers for myself and I don't want to make a mistake. Please feel free to comment on my choices, relative to my sonic preferences. TIA


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Go somewhere to hear them [ another's car , etc.., ].

In lieu of that aim for speakers with the frequencies that matter the most to you!

We have a section on reviews here.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> Go somewhere to hear them [ another's car , etc.., ].


Errr...like where? There's no Pioneer dealer here and there's no Polk (automotive) dealer. Am I supposed to randomly stop people on the street in sheer hope that their respective vehicles are equipped with the speakers that I'm curious about? 



> In lieu of that aim for speakers with the frequencies that matter the most to you!


Seeing how I'm concerned with factors outside of tonal balance, this won't work.



> We have a section on reviews here.


I've gone though each and every page. None of my questions were answered, as I've already said. To wit:

_"Having searched the site with Google, as well as having gone through the forums manually over the last few weeks, I still have no idea what my speaker choices might sound like."_

Speaking of the (err...) reviews, I came across a bunch written by folks who haven't actually heard the gear they're reviewing, even though they've unpacked it and took a few pics, or they've heard a given component on a soundboard, etc. How you folks accept such drivel as legitimate write-ups is beyond me, especially when some go to great lengths to compare products and their work sits right next to these travesties. 


If someone who's heard these speakers can give me a comparison based on the criteria listed in my post above, I'd really appreciate it.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

I guess some are luckier than others 

In the state I live in there are one or two more people than just myself.

If you could ask nicely there may be someone who uses the speakers you are wondering about 

There are get togethers all of the time, you just need to get to them.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> I guess some are luckier than others
> 
> In the state I live in there are one or two more people than just myself.
> 
> ...


I asked about several fairly popular speaker systems that quite a few forum members seem to own. My concerns have not been addressed in previous threads. Call me silly, but it sure seems like this meshes with the function of a discussion forum, regardless of the song and dance above.

<grin> You guys discuss and extrapolate the specs sheets ad nauseum, yet when it comes to a listener's perspective, there just isn't much info to be found. On my home forum, members write non-reviews as a joke. A guy a buys a piece of gear and then describes its prowess without plugging it in, or he walks by a display a discusses the goodness of the product being demonstrated. Unfortunately, our idea of a joke is constant source of reality in the car audio community.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

True dat, Silly 

subjective we do !

As far as describing air and other qualities that are the forte of the home audio afficienados, [ It is up to you to do the install and work with the reflections ],we have some here that are good at that !

Fellippe is quite the conoisseur of fine listening experiences!

Do a search and the next time you are in New York, look him up


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

a$$hole said:


> As far as describing air and other qualities that are the forte of the home audio afficienados, [ It is up to you to do the install and work with the reflections ],we have some here that are good at that !


Great! Can you refer them to this thread?

I went to a specialty car audio retailer last night, listened to some speakers on his soundboard. He also demo'd his car for me, which was said to have won some SQ contest. Well, the car sounded like a mid-fi HT system. The bass was impressive, if not a little distorted. The system lacked clarity and definition. It sounded woolly and blurred, detail was opaque, and instrumental delineation was almost non-existent compared to good audio. This made me lower my expectations rather liberally. As if I didn't think car audio sounded like **** before, this experience cemented the notion. 

Really, I don't want much from this system. It just needs to be loud enough to be heard over the drivetrain and sound clearer than music played through a burlap sack. So far, the car audio I've heard only satisfies the first requirement.


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

you are in new York State? Contact 6spdcoupe, I believe he is in NJ and if not close enough, he can probably refer you to some places that might be able to help.

the real problem you are going to find is that SQ in car audio is so much more dependent on the install, than the equipment. Don't get me wrong, having high quality equipment is nice, but focus on the install.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

fredridge said:


> you are in new York State? Contact 6spdcoupe, I believe he is in NJ and if not close enough, he can probably refer you to some places that might be able to help.


I'd love to find someone in my area to work with. I'm Upstate, which may present a problem. A few days ago, I PM'd a forum member from my area and asked for some local references, but haven't heard back. I've been thinking about placing a Wanted ad in the Sale forum, asking for local assistance, and I may have to resort to doing that.



> the real problem you are going to find is that SQ in car audio is so much more dependent on the install, than the equipment. Don't get me wrong, having high quality equipment is nice, but focus on the install.


The car is fairly constrained as far as speaker placement. Essentially, there are two choices: woofers in the doors/ tweeters low in the A-pillars next to the windshield, or run a component set braxially (sp?) and house the woofer/tweeter in the doors. I'm not willing to modify the car in the least for audio;the system has to be housed in the stock locations. It would make the most sense to listen to both setups in the car and then decide. Normally, that's exactly what I'd do, but this case is different, as I want to remove the interior panels just once to minimize the wear and tear. The focus is on the car in this case, which makes the selection process even more difficult.

I joined this forum for a few reasons, not the least of them being an opportunity to pick the minds of those more experienced than myself. Not only am I finding that the vast majority of the population wouldn't recognize good sound if it bit them on the ass, but those who may be able to contribute on-point simply aren't posting. This leaves me at the same juncture as before, except laden with added frustration. I'm usually the one that folks ask for advice and now that I need some there seems to be a snowball's chance in hell of getting some qualified help.


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

you seem to know what you want for sound, I think the easiest way for you would be to go active and use some home drivers, what this forum originally started out doing.

I would looks at your locations, figure out how far off axis they are and then find some graphs for drivers you might be interested in. 

from my experience and the setups I have heard I would stay away from DLS. I am very, very impressed with my knew Image Dynamics X65 drivers in stock location and I am running a home tweeter in pillars and really like the way it sounds, though I don't know how the tweeters are and if they are good or not off axis.

I have heard the Hertz (hsk?) 6 1/1 components in stock location Veloze's truck and think they may have what you are looking for. They sound great, again running active.

BTW- not sure if it would get you more help or not, but often when seeking help from others humility goes along way and many of your posts come across as arrogant, though may be the nature of the direction this thread went.


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

not sure why double posted, I only clicked once- mods delete??


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

fredridge said:


> you seem to know what you want for sound, I think the easiest way for you would be to go active and use some home drivers, what this forum originally started out doing.


Agreed. I'll probably take that direction with the minivan that I originally asked about. There are a few drivers I'd like to try out of sheer curiosity, if nothing else.



> I would looks at your locations, figure out how far off axis they are and then find some graphs for drivers you might be interested in.


What do you use to model a driver/system's in-car response, given the test data? 



> from my experience and the setups I have heard I would stay away from DLS. I am very, very impressed with my knew Image Dynamics X65 drivers in stock location and I am running a home tweeter in pillars and really like the way it sounds, though I don't know how the tweeters are and if they are good or not off axis.
> 
> I have heard the Hertz (hsk?) 6 1/1 components in stock location Veloze's truck and think they may have what you are looking for. They sound great, again running active.


Thank you. I appreciate the kind advice.

I've actually made a speaker selection a little while ago and decided to go with something I'd heard for myself - Boston Pro60. While I was, and still am, vastly curious about other options, I simply didn't want to take the risk.



> BTW- not sure if it would get you more help or not, but often when seeking help from others humility goes along way and many of your posts come across as arrogant, *though may be the nature of the direction this thread went*.


 Being told to search for information that most audiophiles my age learned before some of the posters were born doesn't exactly make me feel all warm and fuzzy. Couple that with being talked to like some audio-idiot by folks whose reductionist approach to rather complex issues serves to exemplify the product of a union between two siblings, and I see no reason sugarcoat the text. Please don't misunderstand; I'm very grateful to those who contributed on-topic.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

FJF said:


> The car is fairly constrained as far as speaker placement. Essentially, there are two choices: woofers in the doors/ tweeters low in the A-pillars next to the windshield, or run a component set braxially (sp?) and house the woofer/tweeter in the doors. I'm not willing to modify the car in the least for audio;the system has to be housed in the stock locations.


Try not to expect too much with these restraints  .

You are looking for high efficiency speakers that perform well up to the maximum off axis [ response ].

You could sell those bostons and see if Zuki would reccommend something to you .

start a thread or send him a pm {ZukiAudio}

As you have seen, anyone can get loud 

But, few can get loud and clean !

Back in the day MB Quarts were winning a lot of SQ type events [ that was then and this is now ].

Based on what you have listed the speakers and a pair of Deflex type pads will work for your doors.

Tweeters ... OW's


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## pinflap (Jun 2, 2008)

I 've used a lot of different amp/speaker combinations over the years. My current system sounds crisp and clear with plenty of power.
I am using Focal components, and 2 JL audio 10's for the subs.
2xUS Acoustics 2150 amps for the subs
1xalpine4150/powering the focals 
the older us acoustic stuff is very clean and underated. The Alpine PDX series is suprisingly good.
I also have dynamat professionally installed.
all this running from an Alpine 9885 with an ipod in the glove box.
I use my ipod interface in the car most of the time for convenience, and it still sounds outstanding.
You can definitely spend more, or spend a lot less, but I got exactly what I was after, clean sound, strong low end, and clarity.
just throwing that out there.
oh and I have this in my 2008 Civic Si.


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## FJF (Jul 5, 2007)

pinflap said:


> You can definitely spend more, or spend a lot less, but I got exactly what I was after, clean sound, strong low end, and clarity.
> just throwing that out there.
> oh and I have this in my 2008 Civic Si.


This sounds like a terrific setup. Hopefully I'll get to hear mine in a couple of weeks, almost in time to put the car away for the winter.


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## talibmohamid (Dec 5, 2008)

That does seem to be a really nice install......it would be nice if u had pics after your install.....its gonna be nice


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## lovenlife (Feb 3, 2008)

ca90ss said:


> Like I said, it's been covered already. The answers are out there if you're willing to look for them
> Important Technical Threads List - DIY Mobile Audio - Technical, Advanced & Informative



BEST damn reply I've seen yet. After seeing that link I felt like I just won the lotto.


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## k-ink (Dec 20, 2009)

This site really is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot sometimes. OP, try talkaudio website


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## 89grand (Nov 23, 2006)

k-ink said:


> This site really is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot sometimes. OP, try talkaudio website


First off, this thread is several years old. Second, the OP was banned at some point.


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