# Time alignment from both font seats



## Stookie (Aug 9, 2012)

'Don't taze me bro' if this is common known or simple searchable on the forums...

My system (as per sig) is nicely set up with TA etc and has a great wide stage for me in drivers seat. Problem is missus drives the car a lot and has got used to the sound and 'gets it' . Now anything substandard sounds bad to her (and me on the odd occasion when she drives with me in car) Sound in passenger seat is cruddy and sounds like its coming from a concentrated area around the tweeter. 

Question - how can you create a wide sound stage for both driver and front passenger ? (rear be damned)


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## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

You are the target customer for a proper center channel setup. 

Investigate adding a center channel speaker with appropriate DSP to your vehicle. Not sure the make/model vehicle, don't think you mentioned?


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## Stookie (Aug 9, 2012)

Niick said:


> You are the target customer for a proper center channel setup.
> 
> Investigate adding a center channel speaker with appropriate DSP to your vehicle. Not sure the make/model vehicle, don't think you mentioned?



Mercedes W203 (c class) -it has an area for a centre channel - Assume the H800 will sort that out

Then once connected how to you set up the TA distances ? - Speakers in stock positions - doors and side mirror pod


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

Center channel... It's the only way I've ever heard 2 seat correctly.


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## T3mpest (Dec 25, 2005)

Stookie said:


> Mercedes W203 (c class) -it has an area for a centre channel - Assume the H800 will sort that out
> 
> Then once connected how to you set up the TA distances ? - Speakers in stock positions - doors and side mirror pod


Time alignment can only be set for one seat at a time. To get good sound from both seats you'll want to get your speakers as equidistant as possible given their actual physical locations in the vehicle. You can sometimes play with phase and use a bit less time alignment, it's definetly not "right" but it can make it sound better from both seats non the less.

Center channel would be a great start, as others mentioned. If you can find one, a JBL MS-8 might be right up your alley. It can auto eq for both seats using the headphones and then builds a "front" setting that is meant to be the best compromise from both seats. It actually does a pretty damn good job too if you have a center. If your not experienced in 2 seat tuning, it's pretty useful.


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## Stookie (Aug 9, 2012)

turbo5upra said:


> Center channel... It's the only way I've ever heard 2 seat correctly.


Does this 'work' or does it ruin the staging etc that you get in a pure Sq single seat set up - staging depth separation etc


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

Stookie said:


> Does this 'work' or does it ruin the staging etc that you get in a pure Sq single seat set up - staging depth separation etc


It was in the top 5 cars I've heard. within a point or two in either seat. It did pretty much everything great.


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## j4gates (Jan 1, 2016)

turbo5upra said:


> Center channel... It's the only way I've ever heard 2 seat correctly.


I'm sure this is a common debate. Does anyone have a link to more emperical info on the topic? I'm in a similar boat with my next build.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

The easiest solution is to have a setting saved for the front passenger, and use it when she seats there. 

Maybe the the whole stage needs to be narrowed a bit to prevent the one extreme side effect being in the wrong side, once dialed correctly and set for the passenger side, or the driver's side the driver should get the stage on the left half of the dash or in front of the steering wheel and when set for the driver, the passenger also gets a stage on the right half or coming on the dash above the glove box.

This stage may require to have the tweeters on the pillars dash corners (on axis) area as supposed on the sail window panels. Ymmv it may take some hrs experimenting and tuning


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Most modern cars like BMWs have a grill for a Centre speaker... What happens if you install your mids and tweeters say 16deg off axis to the driver (both sides) and then you add a Centre channel that is basically reflecting off the front window - how will that affect the soundstage? And what type of driver will work 3" and tweeter? 


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## Stookie (Aug 9, 2012)

Wheres Andy when you need him - like him to further explain his set up here 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf5POoa_axI


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## #1BigMike (Aug 17, 2014)

I would like to learn how to do this as well. Would you all suggest a mid and tweeter as the center channel?


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## turbo5upra (Oct 3, 2008)

Having never done it... Only judged a car that did it really well I'm not sure... But I think you could get away with it if you were using a wideband for left and right and using the same for center.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

So in my case I use the Utopia Kit 7... So the same mid and tweeter? I presume you need to cross them at the same point as well and use the same power as your using for left and right setup? 


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## benny z (Mar 17, 2008)

turbo5upra said:


> Having never done it... Only judged a car that did it really well I'm not sure... But I think you could get away with it if you were using a wideband for left and right and using the same for center.


i know which car you are talking about and you have to consider the fact that he designed, built, and implemented his own processor for that car. it's not an off-the-shelf solution just anyone can go out and buy/utilize. he also happens to design some of the best oem car systems for a career.

...and for the record, during my demo of that car (which i agree was absolutely fantastic)...he put a towel over the center channel to demonstrate for me that the center channel really wasn't doing much...and wasn't the reason the car 2-seated so well.

he revealed no other voodoo magic secrets...i'd really love to pick his brain sometime.

definitely listen to klif's g35 if you are going to sbn. it's a very well setup 2-seater with a more traditional approach.


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## schmiddr2 (Aug 10, 2009)

Stookie said:


> Wheres Andy when you need him - like him to further explain his set up here
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf5POoa_axI


He said something about using a lot more speakers/processing to achieve tuning for multiple positions. Hence the prototype unit is a 24-ch amp/DSP. I'd bet the DSP logic has been especially built for multi-seat. But this is taking it pretty far and there may be much cheaper ways to get a _better_ two seat setup.


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

El ****** looked pretty good with the mask on. 

Impressive system and advice! I was hopping to hear a little music demo on the video.


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

What they said. This is literally why multichannel was created, to allow listeners in a theatre who are off-axis to have good sound.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

At this point, a center speaker with either an MS-8 or an Alpine 800 or kick panel speakers are the only way to do it. There is a way to do a 2-seat car with no center, but no aftermarket processors currently available include the filter set that's required.


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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

I for the most part have only heard one seat wonders.. What kind of centre do you recommend using Andy? 5.25 or 6.5" coaxial what's the minimum displacement driver you'd recommend and of what quality would it need to be compared too?


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Andy some processors like the PXA H900 has a Centre channel on the processor it's mono so would you require a single mid and tweeter for this application? 


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

L+R isn't a center. Check carefully. Center should play from at least 200-20k. Lower is better.


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## juiceweazel (Jul 28, 2014)

Couldn't you adjust it for a point that's centered in between both driver & passenger? Or would that just make it sound like **** for both people? I understand it wouldn't be perfect but would be a quick easy compromise until other solutions are figured out. I would think it would would be better then no time alignment as you'd be able to correct for the height differences.


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Andy the F1 processor has a dedicated Centre channel - designed for movies etc.. I assume a DSP like the Helix Pro DSP will work as well as its configuration allows you to do what you want? 


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## Elektra (Feb 4, 2013)

Also Andy - look at the diagram attached if I used a Centre channel would this diagram work?










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## mmiller (Mar 7, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> L+R isn't a center. Check carefully. Center should play from at least 200-20k. Lower is better.


How do you recommended implimeenting it? A coaxial or a passive mid an tweeter separates?


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## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

juiceweazel said:


> Couldn't you adjust it for a point that's centered in between both driver & passenger? Or would that just make it sound like **** for both people? I understand it wouldn't be perfect but would be a quick easy compromise until other solutions are figured out. I would think it would would be better then no time alignment as you'd be able to correct for the height differences.


Nope.

The pathlengths are unequal for driver and passenger.

So you have three options:

1) physically equalize the pathlengths (usually via the use of kick panels.)
2) Equalize the paths electronically (only works for one listener)
3) Use a center channel (achieves the same result as item one but requires processing to derive a center.)


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