# A few questions about Alpine time correction. Im stumped.



## randysicko (Oct 22, 2009)

Hello,

I have an Alpine x305 deck and want to take a whack at doing my own tuning instead of using the imprint software. The deck allows me to adjust the time correction values for each speaker in centimeters or inches. I got told 2 different stories from alpine regarding inputting the values into the head unit: 

-One representative told me to input each speaker's distance from my head. For example, if the sub is 40" away, I would input 40..and so on
_(example)_
LF 10" RF 15"
LR 20" RR 25"
SWL 40" SWR 40"

-The second rep told me to input the difference from the furthest speaker... so if the furthest speaker (sub) was 40" away and the LF speaker was 10", I would input 30 for the LF and keep the sub at 0.
_(example)_
LF 30" RF 25"
LR 20" RR 15"
SWL 0" SWR 0"

What throws me off is that all the adjustments on the HU are made in inches and not milliseconds. If i was adjusting milliseconds, I would be more likely to trust rep #2, but since the HU is asking me to input values for each speaker in inches, could it be that the HU does the calculations automatically based on how far I tell it my speakers are from my dome?


Also for laughs, Apine told me that there are different ways to time correct...and that tc'ing the sub doesnt matter 

*One more question-*
-I have my sub right against the trunk firing out towards the rear... Would I measure from the cone, middle of the box, or the back of the box (which faces me). 


Thank you *VERY* much for anyone who is able to give me any insight. It is much appreciated

-Mike


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## mszilves (Dec 17, 2009)

Actually I'm wondering this myself, did you manage to find an answer?

I would assume since the unit wants distance instead of time like some previous units, that you would just input the distances from each speaker, and the unit would do the calculations. That's what I've been doing so far and it seems to sound pretty good. I am running the ida-x100 with a pxa-h100 imprint box.

I'm surprised the Alpine reps are saying different things...


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## Billk1002 (Aug 23, 2009)

You definitly use the subtraction method.
Give this a try.
Turn your rear speakers off.
Measure the difference between the 2 fronts, lets say you end up with 25".
Adjust the volume to a nice lisening level.
Now adjust the TA for the front left back and forth from 0 to 25 and listen to the voices move back and forth acrost your dash.
If you would like to take it a step further, adjust the balance a little to the right to attunuate the left speaker and try the TA again.
I personally don't like the voices centered over the steering wheel, I like them centered over the dash.
Your car your choice have fun.
Let us know what you think.


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## 14642 (May 19, 2008)

Well, they're rght about one thing--TC for the sub doesn't matter.


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## Jeremy M (Sep 22, 2008)

what exactly are u trying to accomplish?
a centered sound stage?
do u want the substage to sound like it's coming upfront?


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## benny (Apr 7, 2008)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well, they're rght about one thing--TC for the sub doesn't matter.


So, delaying my entire front end in comparison to the sub does nothing? What if my sub is the closest driver to me?


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## BigRed (Aug 12, 2007)

I agree with Andy, I NEVER time align the sub


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## evo9 (Jul 6, 2005)

Zapco has the best & easiest time delay example to follow. Click the link below and go to time delay on page 23. Use that method to align the speakers to the subwoofer.


http://www.zapco.com/prod/DC_Ref/documents/2005_Digital_ Processor_ Manual_Rev_B.pdf






.


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## randysicko (Oct 22, 2009)

I am trying to align everything to my driver's seat. After playing around with some settings and using ideas that you guys have given me, it does seem that with the x305HU, setting a speaker to 0 inches or cm provides no delay... while setting to a larger number will delay it.

That is what originally sounded better to me anyways... and what screwed me up is that the Head unit's T/A setup screen led me to believe that if a speaker was 60in away, I would input 60, 35 for 35, etc.. So now I have the RR at 0 and i input the differences in distance from my head for the other three speakers. Im still playing with them making little adjustments to each one that don't match up to my original measurements...but that's needed to make up for the speaker locations i guess.

Regarding TCing the sub... I still havent found that to be beneficial or not, but that may just be because my ears need a little more training. It does seem that the bass is louder towards the windshield, but I don't know if that can be fixed with TA or if that is simply the normal result of typical automobile acoustics.

I think i should just run the imprint sweep and use the curves, but to be honest, I like the sound of the manual tuning better. It may just be my car, but It sounds fuller and I can get the staging more towards where I like it (and be in control of all the other settings if I feel like making an adjustment)

Im constantly tweaking my radio, so I hope I find a sweet spot in the near future, but I think I enjoy playing around with everything too much to ever be completely satisfied lol.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Andy Wehmeyer said:


> Well, they're rght about one thing--TC for the sub doesn't matter.


Wouldn't that depend if your sub is playing mid-bass too? I've heard of some people playing as high as 200hz in SQ competitions


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## mszilves (Dec 17, 2009)

randysicko said:


> I am trying to align everything to my driver's seat. After playing around with some settings and using ideas that you guys have given me, it does seem that with the x305HU, setting a speaker to 0 inches or cm provides no delay... while setting to a larger number will delay it.
> 
> That is what originally sounded better to me anyways... and what screwed me up is that the Head unit's T/A setup screen led me to believe that if a speaker was 60in away, I would input 60, 35 for 35, etc.. So now I have the RR at 0 and i input the differences in distance from my head for the other three speakers. Im still playing with them making little adjustments to each one that don't match up to my original measurements...but that's needed to make up for the speaker locations i guess.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I did the same thing. I went back and set the RR speaker to 0. Then input the distances for FL, FR, and RL (subtracting the distances from RR). After inputting the initial distances, I went and tweaked it by ear. Here are the steps I went through:

1. I brought the RR down by 2db on the x-over (the RR is line of sight to me while the RL goes through the headrest), as well as the FR down by 1db (because the FR mid is aimed directly at me, it seemed louder than the FL after the time delay adjustments) in order to make each speaker the same relative loudness, again done by ear. This was just personal preference to where I felt each speaker was the same "loudness".

2. I put the fader all the way to the REAR, and tweaked the RL while sitting in the driving position. I put a single track on repeat, and did minor adjustments away from my initial measurements until I liked where the rear "stage" seemed exactly to be coming from the "middle" of the rear.

3. Then I put the fader all the way to the FRONT, and did the same thing, tweaking the FL (around the initial measurements) until I liked where the stage was over my steering wheel area. This is something that you just have to do by ear, and you will know when the stage is where you like it.

4. Then I balanced front to rear delay, so I put the balance all the way to the right, and fader in the middle. Again, sitting in the driver position, and turning my head to the right, I adjusted the FR delay against the RR (again relative to my initial measurements) to where it sounded best, now seeming "centered" over my right side passenger window (if you can imagine the "stage" from front to rear on the passenger side).

5. I set the balance and fade back to the middle, and it sounded awesome! I actually tweaked the fader 3 towards the front to clean up the stage, and that was the final adjustment.

I can't believe how good it sounds! I ran the IMPRINT software maybe a total of 8 times (6 measurements each), and it always ended up sounding funny: I used all the advice from the forums here, as well as recommendations from Alpine and Audissey on mic placement, but each time, the stage seemed to be way over to the right. I'm not sure why, but I didn't like the sound at all. After doing the manual time delay, and tweaking it by ear, it sounds amazing. 

And here are a few things I learned along the way:
-You can use the IMPRINT frequency response results in helping to set the appropriate parametric eq points. (Just save a snapshot of the results window on your PC, and you can save the freq. response graph for later).
-The actual speaker measurements should be used as a starting point, not a concrete measurement, as the car's interior (reflections etc.) will also effect the distance
-As many experienced tuners have said, you can't expect a computer to make it sound the way you want it, or what you think is good.

My stereo has never sounded better SQ wise: super clear, great stage, balanced, and now even at loud volumes I'm amazed at how "comfortable" it sounds. Before, the highs seemed to become ear bleeding at high volume (well I actually had to swap phases on the tweets since they are in the sail panels, again thanks to the IMPRINT results, which showed a HUGE dip in response at the mid/tweeter crossover point, which I learned meant the tweets were out of phase compared to the mids, but that's another story 

I definitely like the sound better with my tuning vs the IMPRINT.


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## 2_Lude (Oct 5, 2009)

My older alpine unit had setting that were measured from the head and inputted in ms. I'm guess that the rep might have been confused with the older units.


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## EricBrettJones (Aug 15, 2015)

Wow, great thread. Thank you all.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

randysicko said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have an Alpine x305 deck and want to take a whack at doing my own tuning instead of using the imprint software. The deck allows me to adjust the time correction values for each speaker in centimeters or inches. I got told 2 different stories from alpine regarding inputting the values into the head unit:
> 
> ...


The closest speakers require the most delay, you delay the front to match timing with the sub, the sub is farthest away and gets no delay..

http://tracerite.com/calc.html


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

You input the distance of delay you want to each speaker in the TA settings on the deck , so if you want to delay the FL speaker 1.128 ms you would enter 12inches for that speaker


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## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

What I do, on processor/head units like that, is simply measure the propagation delay of a signal thru the processor/H.U.

Who cares what the end result reading in distance says. This is what impulse response measurements can be useful for. 

I did a pioneer NEX H.U. the other day. I've heard people say (NOT people on this forum) that setting the delays accurately/properly on these units is hard, I've even heard a really recognized tuner say "screw it, you're out of luck" to a guy who had a pioneer, but for me, it was only slightly different than any other processor.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

FYI guys, 6 year old thread...


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## Niick (Jun 3, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> FYI guys, 6 year old thread...


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## EricBrettJones (Aug 15, 2015)

mszilves said:


> I agree with you. I did the same thing. I went back and set the RR speaker to 0. Then input the distances for FL, FR, and RL (subtracting the distances from RR). After inputting the initial distances, I went and tweaked it by ear. Here are the steps I went through:
> 
> 1. I brought the RR down by 2db on the x-over (the RR is line of sight to me while the RL goes through the headrest), as well as the FR down by 1db (because the FR mid is aimed directly at me, it seemed louder than the FL after the time delay adjustments) in order to make each speaker the same relative loudness, again done by ear. This was just personal preference to where I felt each speaker was the same "loudness".
> 
> ...


You mention accessing the cross-over to attenuate one of your channels by 2db.

I am wondering if this is a function available only under imprint as I have scoured the EBT317 manual and have not been able to find any mention of access to the cross-over settings.

Fantastic post by the way. All of your actions were described clearly and concisely.

Thanks,


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## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Niick said:


> What I do, on processor/head units like that, is simply measure the propagation delay of a signal thru the processor/H.U.
> 
> Who cares what the end result reading in distance says. This is what impulse response measurements can be useful for.
> 
> I did a pioneer NEX H.U. the other day. I've heard people say (NOT people on this forum) that setting the delays accurately/properly on these units is hard, I've even heard a really recognized tuner say "screw it, you're out of luck" to a guy who had a pioneer, but for me, it was only slightly different than any other processor.



Some cars locations are so Horrible when you TA it makes it worse , and there is no good setting, maybe that's what he meant . I TA every car I can that leaves my bay ( 20 cars a day ) and about half of them can not be TA worth a dam . I know if I went and flipped the electrical polarity to some of those speakers I could get a decent image at the expense of all there midbass or bass if no sub was installed, TA doesn't always make it better


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

randysicko said:


> -One representative told me to input each speaker's distance from my head. For example, if the sub is 40" away, I would input 40..and so on
> _(example)_
> LF 10" RF 15"
> LR 20" RR 25"
> ...


 Since the OP is long gone this is for those reading and posting in the thread..... both settings would give the same result, both are correct. Delay is relative between drivers.

In The first case: Delay between sub and LF = 40-30= 10"

In the second case: DElay between sub and LF = 10-0 = 10"

In the first case: delay between LF and RF = 15-10=5"

In the second case: delay between LF and RF = 30-25=5"

And so on


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## Mihai_dmg (Dec 19, 2019)

Very old topic, i also have an alpine HU and i have this TCR. Regarding what they told you, after reading the manual, you have to input the delays. So 2nd support guy was right. In your case like other guy said, because the sub is far away, you have to bring it close to your ears. That means you have to delay all other speaker and sound comes to you in same time. To do it, you meassure distance from sub (sub it's omnidirectional under 120hz, but also has some energy disperstion that fades away with distance) highs are very directional and has a narrow dispersion and more focused. For that you may need to tweak also gains. So, distance from sub, let's say 1.5 meters. Distance fron LF 0.5 meters. Sw distance - LF distance = distance that you have to delay your LF speaker. Put this value in HU. You do the same with the other speakers. Reference is your head. Speaker reference is the tweeter or HF driver. SW reference is the middle of box. You can also phase invert the sub, so will fire towards you. If the subs is set above 120hz, dont use phase invert because it will be directional. Sorry for my bad english, hope this will be a good help for people thar search for alpine TA in 2019. )


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