# The Top 3 Things that's Killing Car Audio



## Vestax (Aug 16, 2005)

List the top 3 things you think is killing this money pit industry. 

Possible contributing factors: Internet, Big Boxes, DIY crowd, lack of interest, complex stock systems, other (please list why).


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Easy...

Bling, SPL and disrespectful use there-of (not for competition use), Really Bad Good Marketing Gimmicks (yea does that make sense?).

Gotta say the only thing thats saving car audio really imo is diy, i dunno why but everyone else just seems to cut corners and never edjucate themselves before they get into something......


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## dbiegel (Oct 15, 2006)

Is anything killing car audio? Looks like an alive and well industry to me.

But if I did have to pick something, it would be consumer ignorance.


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

Vestax said:


> List the top 3 things you think is killing this money pit industry.
> 
> Possible contributing factors: Internet, Big Boxes, DIY crowd, lack of interest, complex stock systems, other (please list why).


Internet sales .... In my old shop , we battled DAILY with people quoting internet pricing. It used to be , a good salesman could overcome this with quality arguments for buying from an authorized dealer , but not any more. 
People are willing to buy for cheap prices , reasoning they can just replace it if it goes bad , for cheap pricing once again. 
It got soooo bad , we ended up placing a sign behind the counter. this sign stated :

*If you ask us to match internet pricing , we will ask you to take your business elsewhere. We do NOT install parts we don't sell, unless you can provide a valid receipt from an authorized dealer.*

What made it even worse , is our own Rainbow rep was selling products from his garage at lower prices than we could sell for and make a reasonable profit. We lost several sales a month to this person, with customers telling us " But we can get it from Don for this price " ... He's still the factory rep on the East Coast , and he still sells over the internet. 

This makes shops install prices rise in order for them to make the same profit.
Why is it so important for the profit margin to stay high ?

To get the best installers , you have to pay them a quality salary.
To buy the best lines of car audio , the buy ins are often expensive.
To do real high quality work , the installers need to work at a decent pace .. Not frantic paces to keep the profit margin high.
Shops need to keep a FULL supply of everything that would be needed for almost every install ( kits , accessories , wiring , ect ) , as customers don't want to wait for you to order things in.

That's why my shop ended up working almost EXCLUSIVELY for wealthy customers. People who didn't ask how much , but were more than willing to pay reasonable money for top quality work.

Lastly , there is a BIG car audio place a few blocks from where I live now. They have a small front store , and a huge warehouse with millions of dollars worth of gear. They can get you ANYTHING you want , from Zapco to Tru , *at 5 to 10 percent over cost*. They are car audio whores , and are killing the quality businesses in the area. They also install .... The worst hack jobs you have ever seen.


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

demon2091tb said:


> Easy...
> 
> Bling, SPL and disrespectful use there-of (not for competition use), Really Bad Good Marketing Gimmicks (yea does that make sense?).
> 
> Gotta say the only thing thats saving car audio really imo is diy, i dunno why but everyone else just seems to cut corners and never edjucate themselves before they get into something......


You need to visit some top quality shops with award winning installers. DIYers could learn soooo damned much , but they probably don't know any better.


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## Fellippe (Sep 15, 2006)

What's killing car audio these days:

1) Reliance on excursion to produce (mid)bass instead of efficient motor designs
2) Amplifiers that are not quite up to the levels their fathers were years ago, also forcing the need to rely on excursion. 
3) Tweeter design that accentuates highs too much (and worse is usually more prevalent in the flagship designs than midrange)

Bonus:

Obsession with tweeters and subwoofer tuning and not midrange/midbass tuning. 25-40 hz & 14khz+ performance instead of 40hz-10khz performance. Focusing on the sprinkles and not the ice cream. Examples of this: CES demo cars. 

These items I don't find exclusively limited to car audio....it's prevalent in a good amount of the raw driver design today as well.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

AVI said:


> You need to visit some top quality shops with award winning installers. DIYers could learn soooo damned much , but they probably don't know any better.


Dunno what your really trying to say. I don't know of many top notch shops around my area, and havn't heard of any within driving distance, or my opinion of what i've come into contact with i'm sure would change quite a bit.


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## eqsandleds (Mar 22, 2006)

There is only one answer to this.

MP3's and the IPOD generation. The younger generation could care less about sound quality. And to be honest there is not much music being produced that sounds good anyway.


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## ClinesSelect (Apr 16, 2006)

Having to deal with egotistical people at car audio shops who automatically assume that they know more than DIYers.


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## SQ_Bronco (Jul 31, 2005)

I'd say it's better than it's ever been. There are so many cool toys out now, compared to even 3 or 4 years ago, at increasingly reasonable prices and higher and higher quality, that I'd say this is the best time i can remember to be a car audio hobbyist. Power is cheap, awesome drivers are cheap, sound deadening stuff is available cheap, etc.

Things that might kill car audio in the future:

1) idiots who boom near other people, coupled with cheaper and cheaper cars with thinner sheet metal that does a poorer job of keeping sound IN the car -- causing stupid laws to be passed
2) OEM integration makes it more and more difficult to DIY
3) getting old  (but that's not gonna happen!)


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## Fellippe (Sep 15, 2006)

eqsandleds said:


> There is only one answer to this.
> 
> MP3's and the IPOD generation. The younger generation could care less about sound quality. And to be honest there is not much music being produced that sounds good anyway.


Agree.

And the recording methods and quality have also taken a drastic tumble.

You put all these things together and you have a recipe for disaster, which we have now. 

A late '70s Steely Dan LP being played on a '70s turntable with a '70s tube amp is gonna outperform a new CD being played on a fair share of modern equipment. Sad but true. 

The audio electronics industry is the one industry that never moved forward as far as it should have. In some areas , retracted.


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## Fellippe (Sep 15, 2006)

demon2091tb said:


> Dunno what your really trying to say. I don't know of many top notch shops around my area, and havn't heard of any within driving distance, or my opinion of what i've come into contact with i'm sure would change quite a bit.


How about a trip to a home audio studio that knows what they're doing. Start with that.

The only thing you'll learn from car audio techniques is how to actually install the stuff right...

But to train your EARS properly, the home is the REFERENCE.


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

Fellippe said:


> Agree.
> 
> And the recording methods and quality have also taken a drastic tumble.
> 
> ...


I guess that all depends on where the market should move? Should it move to where you want it, or should it move to where the product demand really is?

The market has gone a LONG LONG LONG way - the market demands cheap, blingy crap and that's what the mfg's are giving it - and it's working very well. It is not the mfg's responsibility to change the demand of the market - rather they should either build what the market wants, or find something new that the market didn't know it wanted.


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## demon2091tb (May 30, 2005)

Fellippe said:


> How about a trip to a home audio studio that knows what they're doing. Start with that.
> 
> The only thing you'll learn from car audio techniques is how to actually install the stuff right...
> 
> But to train your EARS properly, the home is the REFERENCE.


Again i ask you, where can i find a place like that, i went into a local home audio store, i've been into Tweeter, some now local home theatre/audio stores, i've been in alot of different places, not related to car audio, none have shown me anything out of the ordinary or that even stood out, that have impressed me in SQ. How am i supposed to train myself when my reference is as good as it gets around my parts..... Thats one of the biggest problems.


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## OgreDave (Jul 13, 2005)

I think some of you guys might want to differentiate b/t what's killing 'SQ' vs 'car audio'.

On that note ... I think I kinda agree w/below. Dunno about better than ever, but it sure is cheaper these days 



SQ_Bronco said:


> I'd say it's better than it's ever been. There are so many cool toys out now, compared to even 3 or 4 years ago, at increasingly reasonable prices and higher and higher quality, that I'd say this is the best time i can remember to be a car audio hobbyist. Power is cheap, awesome drivers are cheap, sound deadening stuff is available cheap, etc.
> 
> Things that might kill car audio in the future:
> 
> ...


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

OgreDave said:


> I think some of you guys might want to differentiate b/t what's killing 'SQ' vs 'car audio'.
> 
> On that note ... I think I kinda agree w/below. Dunno about better than ever, but it sure is cheaper these days


I concur, except I want to add what is killing car audio vs what's killing car audio manufacturers.


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## zukiaudio (Jan 31, 2007)

demon2091tb said:


> Again i ask you, where can i find a place like that, i went into a local home audio store, i've been into Tweeter, some now local home theatre/audio stores, i've been in alot of different places, not related to car audio, none have shown me anything out of the ordinary or that even stood out, that have impressed me in SQ. How am i supposed to train myself when my reference is as good as it gets around my parts..... Thats one of the biggest problems.



you considered going to a 

n c audio club meeting ?

some of the top names in home audio 
live in n c and meet and display systems for listening.

and some top car audio guys live there


08-02-06: Drubrew
There are already several.
In Raleigh: 
Piedmont Audiophile Society
DIY Tube based equipment building and other things
There is a Sunday school almost every week. Contact Kevin Carter [email protected]
NC Audiophiles:
www.audiocircle.com/circles/in...

In Charlotte: 
Carolina Audiophile society
www.audiocircle.com/circles/in...

There are a few others. I try to go to all of them Mostly the Piedmont one every sunday.

Thank You.
Drew Baird
Moon Audio
308 Chrismill Lane
Holly Springs, NC 27540
919-649-5018
[email protected]
http://www.moon-audio.com
Drubrew (Answers)


08-02-06: Calloway
where in nc are you?
Calloway (System | Threads | Answers)


08-02-06: Vanderstephen
sounds good. I'm in Raleigh. I think there may already be one in Charlotte.
Vanderstephen (System | Threads | Answers)


08-02-06: Gammajo
anybody near Asheville/Hendersonville?
Gammajo (System | Threads | Answers)


08-03-06: Philefreak
I'm in Hickory and have gone to the Charlotte meeting before when time allows.
Philefreak (Threads | Answers)


08-03-06: Jndean
Iam in Asheville. There is not one here that I know of.
Jndean (System | Threads | Answers)


08-03-06: Waltersalas

I am in Waynesville, about 30 miles west of Asheville. Would definitely be interested, either in going or hosting.
Waltersalas (Threads | Answers)


08-03-06: Ssglx
I'm in Raleigh and would be interested in hearing other systems and sharing experiences.

Chris
Ssglx (System | Threads | Answers)


08-03-06: Edkoz
Hey folks, hope you get something going. I'm planning on moving down to the asheville area in a year and a half or so.
Edkoz (Threads | Answers)


08-03-06: Drubrew
For those in Raleigh, send me an email and I will get a list going. Shall we set up a preliminary date for something?
Thank You.
Drew Baird
Moon Audio
308 Chrismill Lane
Holly Springs, NC 27540
919-649-5018
[email protected]
http://www.moon-audio.com
Drubrew (Answers)


08-04-06: Twochannel_guy
I am seeking 501-C certification so we may rent facilities at low cost and I am seeking the occasional commercial sponser to offset costs, not commercial representatives using the member list for customers. Drubrew your enthusiasm is appreciated but a call for a meeting is premature at this point. I really don't want this to start quickly and fizzle out quickly. 

For those interested NC Triangle area folks and those willing to travel to the Raleigh area, please email me at [email protected]
Guy


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

lack of technology in products? every head unit should have toslink and dvd audio by now. dont feel any need to upgrade...


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## bryanwescoe (Nov 2, 2007)

Wanting to fill your trunk with 6 MTX subwoofers and 3 lanzer audio amplifiers....on a stock head unit. Few people are willing to spend a decent amount of money to do an install right and emphasize all the wrong areas. Throw words like deadening and equalizers and crossovers in the mix and 95% of people buying aftermarket car audio products will be confused.


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## solacedagony (May 18, 2006)

I'm not involved in the industry outside of being a consumer, but I'm going to take a wild guess that the large majority of consumers are simply a buy a HU and get it installed or buy a HU and a new sets of speakers and potentially and get them installed. I'm guessing we're an extremely small section of the car audio industry.

With that said, I think the thing that kills car audio is the amount of work that needs put in to get together a decent system. It's not cheap, it's time consuming and after all that money and time, you might STILL not even be happy with it.

/soapbox


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## bryanwescoe (Nov 2, 2007)

solacedagony said:


> I'm not involved in the industry outside of being a consumer, but I'm going to take a wild guess that the large majority of consumers are simply a buy a HU and get it installed or buy a HU and a new sets of speakers and potentially and get them installed. I'm guessing we're an extremely small section of the car audio industry.
> 
> With that said, I think the thing that kills car audio is the amount of work that needs put in to get together a decent system. It's not cheap, it's time consuming and after all that money and time, you might STILL not even be happy with it.
> 
> /soapbox


True but this is the case with all audiophiles. Stereo and HT guys have this same problem....it takes a special breed. 

I would say the one thing ruining the market in our eyes is the manufacturers catering to the mass market...which in turn abandons us. The mass market wants bling, not quality, they want bloated power figures, not precise, low distortion CLEAN power. Car audio today is mostly to show off, not to enjoy for yourself.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

AVI said:


> Internet sales .... In my old shop , we battled DAILY with people quoting internet pricing. It used to be , a good salesman could overcome this with quality arguments for buying from an authorized dealer , but not any more.
> People are willing to buy for cheap prices , reasoning they can just replace it if it goes bad , for cheap pricing once again.
> It got soooo bad , we ended up placing a sign behind the counter. this sign stated :
> 
> ...



Very nice Derrin, take stabs at me, but of course leave out facts. How could I ever have expected anything more from you?

So let's see where to start? Was the shop you worked for (Not ran as claimed) ever an actual dealer? Umm NO. Did they EVER stock ANY products? Hey again .. NO. One order came to you, and what was it for? YOUR CAR, and to be used for 'advertising' even with the promise of a magazine spread. Hmm what happened with that? Now let's not even get into all the other lines you CLAIMED to be a dealer for but yet never ordered a damn thing and for some never even made a contact ! 


Don't think of TRYING to take a stab at me without there being reprocussions . MANY have seen through your ******** and lies over time and Im quite fed up with it myself. What's the names of these so called successful business you owned? Where were they? Funny you Never mentioned them when called on it. Wheres all this high end gear that claimed to have used EVERYTHING, but yet post on another forum asking how 'product A' performed/sounded/etc while months earlier you claimed you owned and used that same said product.

Selling from my garage? More crap spewed from your mouth. It's no secret my facility is located on residential property, BUT it's a full functioning facility - large bay, fab area,large display waiting area and Im here, available and working 7 days a ****ing week. 

Undercutting and not authorized? Let's see I am AUTHORIZED to allow Rainbow on the net, this was even prior to distribution stateside and was passed directly down from Stefan in Germany and continued once distribution started here and to this day is still valid. Undercutting? Funny I've spoken with the other Authorized net sellers and we All (with a few exceptions from some) maintained the same pricing structure. But I find it odd that you didnt complain when you bought a set from me, or better yet when you asked me to let you 'borrow' a set of PhasePlugs to try out. 

Buy-ins for products are expensive? Wake up my friend this is 2007 buy-ins are a thing of the past. A VERY small portion of the 'high end' market demands or could even try to get over with a buy-in nowadays.

You claim to know all, tried all and you can do all, in my eyes you aint ****, never have been **** and certainly can't do ****.

Next time you have a ****ing problem with me man the **** up and address me directly instead of hiding behind your ****ing computer with subtle stabs and someone that you cannot, will not ever be.


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## DonutHands (Jan 27, 2006)

nothing, its not dying


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

Handled


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

Most have already been said.

However I believe it is none of that.
*Is it only in car audio where they complain cheaper products, easier purchasing, and better access to "how to" is destroying the industry?*

Whats killing it?
The marketing guys figure there is better money spent elsewhere in promoting their wares.

It is like any sport/hobby.
Get it on TV etc and you will have great participation, even if the sport/hobby isn't all that great.


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## kimokalihi (May 27, 2007)

I understand why you don't like the internet and what's it's doing to your business but without it, I wouldn't really be into car audio. I would in a sense, but not really. I'd basically be driving around with some cheap ass alpine type S speakers or something like that and a 12" infinity reference sub. 

That's all I could afford to buy authorized. It's just too damn expensive. And you can forget about getting anything installed! 

If I had money to throw away like some people then I would go authorized for all my equipment. I'd still install it myself though because that's the best part.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Fellippe said:


> What's killing car audio these days:
> 
> 1) Reliance on excursion to produce (mid)bass instead of efficient motor designs
> 2) Amplifiers that are not quite up to the levels their fathers were years ago, also forcing the need to rely on excursion.
> ...


I kind of get what you're saying, but it doesn't make sense 100%.

Regardless of how efficient your mids are, they will require the same amount of excursion to reach a given spl.

Honestly, I haven't seen #3 at all. In fact, seems to be the opposite these days with alot of sets where the top end is just seemingly non-existant. They key Imho, is not a rising on-axis response... but flat power response so that you don't get beaming at high frequencies. This gives you that top end air/space/detail etc. without being too aggressive.


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## MidnightCE (Mar 5, 2007)

what is beaming?


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

I look at car audio like I look at BMX (another hobby of mine). 

It comes in circles. Granted, I've only been into car audio for a few years and most recently into the SQ realm, but SQ & BMX seem related in the sense that there seem to be pitfalls, followed by growth and this trend cycles.

Or am I wrong?



I think that there's definately *not* a demise with car audio itself; but rather the "little guy". Once again, I've seen this example first hand in BMX. I worked in a shop for years. We ALWAYS had to deal with people wanting us to price match "Dan's" (a mail-order company). They are like the Sam's of BMX. Huge warehouse, with major inventory. That put the shop I ran into a lot of issues. We always had to match or deal with the customer taking business elsewhere. We had to 'convince' them buying from us was better due to warranty issues. And we had to offer incentives; such as a free month's pass to the skatepark, or free maintenance for a year. 

Now, after blaming the internet and wholesalers, I think it's only fair to evaluate the B&M. If the local shop isn't doing its part to work with customers and keep them happy then their assistance truly isn't needed. It's a very fine line and hard to walk it, but the simple fact is that it must be in order to stay afloat, much less profit.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

MidnightCE said:


> what is beaming?


Depending on the size of the speaker, at certain frequncy they begin to transmit all of the sound in a beam, just like a light!

There is a picture at the bottom of this page that shows it beautifully!
http://www.nlightnspeakers.com/brochuresoa.pdf


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## dual700 (Mar 6, 2005)

6spdcoupe said:


> Very nice Derrin, take stabs at me, but of course leave out facts. How could I ever have expected anything more from you?
> 
> So let's see where to start? Was the shop you worked for (Not ran as claimed) ever an actual dealer? Umm NO. Did they EVER stock ANY products? Hey again .. NO. One order came to you, and what was it for? YOUR CAR, and to be used for 'advertising' even with the promise of a magazine spread. Hmm what happened with that? Now let's not even get into all the other lines you CLAIMED to be a dealer for but yet never ordered a damn thing and for some never even made a contact !
> 
> ...


Don't mess with Don...
Don is the man..... 
Stand up, honest dude...Nuff said..


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

I can't believe he thought he was going to get away with it...like no one here consistantly does business Don or anything.


I did not know that the house was also the shop....not saying that is good or bad. Just something I didn't know.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Stereo.....monophonic is where it's at muahahahahah!  


1) Our generation is a throw away generation who also demands cheap product but still wants good and worth every penny. 

2) Plenty of other things drawing attention away. More things to do, more distractions.

3) Lack of support-friends, family, companies, people telling you your equipment sucks, in the end it drives morale down.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

what makes you think mobile audio is dying?


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

> what makes you think mobile audio is dying?


Less sales at Brick and mortar?
Old car audio forums dying?
Stereo finally losing to surround?
Die stereo die.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

durwood said:


> distractions.
> 
> 3) Lack of support-friends, family, companies, people telling you your equipment sucks, in the end it drives morale down.



agreed. but people thinking your equipment sucks also cuts down on potential theft. a lot of people view seas the same way i view audiobling...except seas is somewhat underground with minimal bling. who wants a system that sounds great but looks all sterile and ****   solid black cone and frames ftw!


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Flipx99 said:


> I can't believe he thought he was going to get away with it...like no one here consistantly does business Don or anything.
> 
> 
> I did not know that the house was also the shop....not saying that is good or bad. Just something I didn't know.


Its all good. As the locals or as I prefer to refer to as friends know - its technically seperate. Home/Business life are Always completely isoloated.  And as you and a few others know Im available for phone/emails til the wee hours of the night.


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

Abmolech said:


> Die stereo die.


ahahahah

Well, if all the car audio shops die, then what? They will stop making product? Naw...we are still addicted, there are plenty more people that will get addicted. old car audio forums die but give birth to new ones. I think everything is rebuilding. The internet spews wealths of knowledge, people share ideas, old ideas give birth to new ideas. Generates more new products, creating new unique setups....

Look at all the choices we have now compared to when car audio was born.

Right now we are in a rebuilding season...new hurtles to overcome.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

*From the consumer point of view...*

1) Integrated audio systems with NAV, bluetooth, iPod integration, onstar, and other gadgets.
...a) This provides the consumer with almost everything they need without going aftermarket
...b) and it makes it tougher to upgrade without spending lots of money for integrated solutions
2) A market that is focused on bling. This draws away the middle aged crowd, the people with money, while attracting the young crowd, the people without money unless its their parents.
3) No outlet for the "demo". Sales people can't pull you in and say _listen to this_. Their in-store demo systems aren't designed to sell "quality" and most stores don't even specialize in audio anymore.


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## csuflyboy (Apr 20, 2005)

AVI said:


> Internet sales .... In my old shop , we battled DAILY with people quoting internet pricing. It used to be , a good salesman could overcome this with quality arguments for buying from an authorized dealer , but not any more.
> People are willing to buy for cheap prices , reasoning they can just replace it if it goes bad , for cheap pricing once again.
> It got soooo bad , we ended up placing a sign behind the counter. this sign stated :
> 
> *If you ask us to match internet pricing , we will ask you to take your business elsewhere. We do NOT install parts we don't sell, unless you can provide a valid receipt from an authorized dealer.*


I'd consider myself a dealer for some of the finest car audio's got to offer, and I've never had to quibble with customers over (internet) prices. The knowledge of your salesman, craftsmanship of your installer(s), tune (once finished), and follow through after the car leaves the shop will always be worth much more.

What made it even worse , is our own Rainbow rep was selling products from his garage at lower prices than we could sell for and make a reasonable profit. We lost several sales a month to this person, with customers telling us " But we can get it from Don for this price " ... He's still the factory rep on the East Coast , and he still sells over the internet. 

How professional of you...However, I really don't think Don - or any other distributor, will knowingly and repeatedly sell into an area with an authorized dealer.

This makes shops install prices rise in order for them to make the same profit.
Why is it so important for the profit margin to stay high ?

To get the best installers , you have to pay them a quality salary.

The best installers need to be trained, and have the desire to push themselves. Of course, salary is a motivating factor, but the best shops I've seen have one "senior" installer, and several "junior" that hone their craft from the leader.

To buy the best lines of car audio , the buy ins are often expensive.

NO THEY'RE NOT! This industry has recognized that buy-ins are a stretch, and often don't require them - especially for the higher end, "boutique" brands.

To do real high quality work , the installers need to work at a decent pace .. Not frantic paces to keep the profit margin high.

Shops need to keep a FULL supply of everything that would be needed for almost every install ( kits , accessories , wiring , ect ) , as customers don't want to wait for you to order things in.

The fact is the client needs their vehicle back within a reasonable time frame, and the shop should OVER-estimate the amount of time they think is required, then deliver the vehicle back earlier. Of course, having a few installers to knock out the install quickly helps. Even the most extravagant installs I've come across can be finished by a dedicated team in quick time. Having one (or more) of everything in stock doesn't make sense for the smaller shops - as it adds to overhead costs. I don't stock anything, and I've never had a client complain about waiting a week to get parts.

That's why my shop ended up working almost EXCLUSIVELY for wealthy customers. People who didn't ask how much , but were more than willing to pay reasonable money for top quality work.

Lastly , there is a BIG car audio place a few blocks from where I live now. They have a small front store , and a huge warehouse with millions of dollars worth of gear. They can get you ANYTHING you want , from Zapco to Tru , *at 5 to 10 percent over cost*. They are car audio whores , and are killing the quality businesses in the area. They also install .... The worst hack jobs you have ever seen.[/QUOTE]

Go and buy a Zapco amplifier from them, and get the serial number. The source of that shop will be cut off! About half of my clients find me through referrals from others that have been screwed from other shops...one in particular. If anything, I'd view this "hack job" shop as an asset to you - as you'll get more work from them, and IF you're able to do quality work (like I've mentioned above), you don't have anything to worry about...


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

honestly, I don't think it is dying, but definitely changing.... there is becoming a greater gap in the way people view it.... there seem to be two main camps... those who want the show and those who want the sound...... Bling sells like crazy, and thats ok, some people want it.... it is a place to start, some people get hooked and want something more and some people just go away.... 

the two big camps are creating two types of business... the audio warehouse that blows stuff out cheap, kind of a 99cent store model and then there are people looking for craftsman... I would imagine people like Bing and Don are more craftsman and make their living out of their home/business..... personally tons of shops around me, but definitely Bing was the way to go....


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## jayhawkblk (May 29, 2007)

How the hell is this guy think he is. Don is one hardest working mofo's i have ever met. Yea his business is attached to his house but he know the seperation. He is one of the ones that is keeping car audio alive. He has the greatest customer service and is very professional. He has great repour with all the high end lines that he carries. He is authorized for every line that he carries. So what he does not have a fansy store front, but he has is *own* shop and is successful and all his clients return becasue of the level of service and professionalism and his knowlege of the products that he sales and that are on the market. And yes I am very good friends with Don He in fact is one of my best friends. So I think it is narrow minded idiots such as your self that is killing car audio.


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## JoeHemi57 (Mar 28, 2006)

can't we all just get along?


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

Nope.
I am waiting for people to start swimming with the fishes.


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

Well my shop is doing very well asfar as I can see..
We love "Phone Sales" keeps the Pioneer Elite Plasma's Moving out the door
I will do my best to keep the high school kids buying from me..
We did a system in one kids car didnt make a ton on it but we did the best we could do..his friends got everything from the inster net
We charge dbl to install anything NOT from us..
So the install would kill them.. so they doit..
guess what.. 2x the gear sounded 2x as bad..
most of the other kids can see & hear the difrence between the 2 cars & now shop with us..

Whats Kiling Car Audio?
my $0.02

#1: Cheap ass gear with big hype (Already said)
#2: Limited by OE system's (Already said)
#3: The Price to get good gear into a Car with Mass intergration..


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## Puffhead (Aug 29, 2007)

No reason to NOT buy from Don. First and foremost he's passionate about the hobby. Second, he's practically always on call to answer questions and/or deal with your problems. Third, he carries great brands at great price points.

Who in their right mind would rent a storefront (which runs AT LEAST $1500/mo. in these parts, and that's for a small ****hole) when there's really no reason to. Bottom line is he gets it done and gets it done right.

Maybe if there were more "Dons" out there the question posed in this thread would never exist.


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## chuyler1 (Apr 10, 2006)

The industry is changing, as are many industries. You either go with the flow or die a painful death. You can't expect a business model that depends on high markup of audio gear to work anymore. You need to push installation, fabrication, and support or close your store front and just sell online.

There is still a market for sound quality, but it isn't something you can sell in a strip mall anymore. You need to find the market for it (it won't come to you) and spread business by referal.

I think the days of installing head units and coaxials is coming to an end. People will want subs and bling, or custom fabrication of high end components.


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## JoeHemi57 (Mar 28, 2006)

tr0y_audi0 said:


> We charge dbl to install anything NOT from us.


this has always bothered me, i work in the parts dept at a car dealership and we don't charge more labor if someone brings their own parts. i can understand not wanting to install used equipment but other than that i consider it a bad business practice.


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## ///Audience (Jan 31, 2007)

Thought this would kind of fit in with what we are talking about...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?p=250799#post250799


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## iyamwutiam (Nov 20, 2006)

1. Over priced installs done by 17 year olds -'honing their craft' - sort of like the resident doing surgery on you while the surgeon is billing you up the wazoo- don't thin so- prolly WHY - there are SO many people on DIYMA

2. Marketing driven by not nurturing clients to high end goods with high quality but rather driven by 'pimp' my ride /walmart/best buy syndromes. In short - get em in the shop fleece em with mid priced low quality goods and if you never see them again - so what- you GOT your money TODAY - and thats what COUNTS.

3. Complete lack of understanding how important a car is to someone in this day and age. Yeah - I will do it in 3 days - nope -sorry a week- nope sorry - 10 days. Its easier to install alarms and remote starters for 200 a pop.


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

Internet sellers that make sometimes next to nothing profit margins. So they have to make up for it by pushing high quanities. They drive the prices way down and make it unfair for the rest. Internet sales makes it alot easier to become a seller. Alot of the regular business expenses are eliminated.


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## JAG (May 6, 2006)

Don .... I refuse to take part in a keyboard war with you on this forum. I simply told the truth. If you have anything to say , you can PM me directly and keep this forum professional.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

AVI said:


> Internet sales .... In my old shop , we battled DAILY with people quoting internet pricing. It used to be , a good salesman could overcome this with quality arguments for buying from an authorized dealer , but not any more.
> People are willing to buy for cheap prices , reasoning they can just replace it if it goes bad , for cheap pricing once again.
> It got soooo bad , we ended up placing a sign behind the counter. this sign stated :
> 
> ...


I hear you brother. My partners and I closed our shop over 4 years ago for this very reason. It's just getting worse. In the end our only customers were alleged drug dealers looking to launder their money by pimping out their rides. You be the judge, some ghetto looking 19yo kid brings in three Escallades to have $15K worth of work done to them. He can pay cash. Sure, they offered to pay decent money, but we agreed this was morally wrong and dangerous to deal with such people. We decided it was for our own good to close up shop and send these bozos elsewhere. Too bad, at the time we were one of the only remaining shops in the area who would do super detailed custom installs. Everyone else seemed to be hacks looking to turn profit by spitting customers in and out as fast as possible vs. striving to be their best.


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## Ge0 (Jul 23, 2007)

rcurley55 said:


> I guess that all depends on where the market should move? Should it move to where you want it, or should it move to where the product demand really is?
> 
> The market has gone a LONG LONG LONG way - the market demands cheap, blingy crap and that's what the mfg's are giving it - and it's working very well. It is not the mfg's responsibility to change the demand of the market - rather they should either build what the market wants, or find something new that the market didn't know it wanted.


Well said Rob.

Ge0


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

Is it for you to judge where the money comes from?


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## Pb2theMax (Aug 26, 2005)

Uneducated people, salesmen, and installers. BestBuy & Circuit City.  

Low quality bling is everywhere. I hate it when big brand names lower their quality and using cheap labor overseas.

Finding a good car audio shop is hard. A new shop just moved into town. I'm not sure about their installers skills, but their prices seem good. I bought an Eclipse AVN-6610 for $999. The cheapest price I could find online was $1199. Plus I'm buying it from an authorized dealer. Paying tax is poo, but it's still cheaper than online. You rarely find shop prices that are cheaper than online prices. It's nice to find a good shop. 

I think places like PartsExpress are great for car audio. Good stuff, new stuff, and cheap prices. I wish the masses could find out about some lesser known brands. I hate it when I hear noobs talk about how they love their Kicker, Rockford, Sony, Jensen, etc.


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

Ge0 said:


> Well said Rob.
> 
> Ge0


Thank you 

The industry has changed b/c of the internet - it's distributing product for cheaper and knowledge (sometimes good and sometimes wrong) for free.

It seems that some dealers have learned to work in this new space and others are dying because of it.

The last thing I thought I'd see on this forum is people airing this much dirty laundry - it's a shame and it may be time to find another forum (and just when I got back into it).


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## rcurley55 (Jul 6, 2005)

AVI said:


> Don .... I refuse to take part in a keyboard war with you on this forum. I simply told the truth. If you have anything to say , you can PM me directly and keep this forum professional.


ummm, I think you already brought things on the unprofessional side by taking cheap shots - practice what you preach, no?


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## dbiegel (Oct 15, 2006)

I love how in every industry, the "old pros" are making these "internet companies" out to be the bad guys... it's CONSUMERS who are choosing where to buy.

In my world, salespeople and retail are an obstacle, an annoyance, and even worse, they expect me pay them lots of money, indirectly, to annoy me. The information age is here. The world is changing. For every substantial purchase I've made in the last few years -- car, phone, computer, TV, dog, mattress, glasses, condoms, restaurants, flights, hotels, nutrition, car audio, you name it -- if I spend just a short amount of time researching it on the internet, I already know more than 99.9% of the salespeople out there trying to push the product, and I end up with a far better result.

Years of pimple-faced boys at Best Buy, ex-felons managing used car lots telling us stories about their fictitious kids, and even respected experienced owners of high end stores not knowing the difference between a phase plug and a butt plug, giving clearly false info time and time again or just mindlessly quoting the dealer brochure have left us consumers jaded. The glory days of selling items at 200% markup to a consumer saying its barely over cost are over; now we know how much you pay for the product. The illusion is broken and that along with bitterness from the past makes it hard to justify giving you our hard-earned money for advice we don't trust.

The sad thing is, there are true experts out there who are honest, hardworking, keep up with the latest developments, etc. -- and I suspect a lot of those are on this forum. But how are we consumers to know you're not like the other 99.9%? And if there IS a way for us to know, then most of us can't afford YOU anyway, even though we wish we could, so we settle with what we can do and drool over pictures of your installs.

And is it really true that install is everything for people with a limited budget? For under $500 I got an Eclipse 8454, a 6 channel amp, Seas CA18RNX's, Seas Neo tweeters, and some extra gooey raammat. What can you install for $500 authorized? Some Infinity co-axials and a bazooka tube? If I spend $1000, whats that get me, a JL 300/4, some entry level polks, and a dynamat license plate kit?

The fact is its not that hard to do basic install work. I prefer to do it myself, but if I wanted I could just pay the guy at circuit city $50 to do it after work and it would be just fine. The real place for experts is in higher dollar installs. There are some very talented individuals on here who have skills I could never dream of having. But for everyone looking to spend less than a few thousand dollars.. nothing can beat buying on the internet and learning from fellow enthusiasts (who aren't trying to sell me anything) how to do things the right way, and drool over what you real experts are doing hoping that one day we can afford you.


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## AzGrower (May 30, 2005)

Forgive my naiveness, and not trying to re-open a can o worms here, but which Don are we talking about? Don Smith who sells CDT (amongst other brands of course)? The owner of Island Sound? Or somebody else?


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## toolfan91 (Dec 7, 2005)

AVI said:


> Don .... I refuse to take part in a keyboard war with you on this forum. I simply told the truth. If you have anything to say , you can PM me directly and keep this forum professional.


Funny how YOU were being the unprofessional one. 

Don is a stand-up guy, stop getting your panties in a bunch


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## Neil (Dec 9, 2005)

Didn't read much of the thread but I'd say:

1. Internet pricing
2. DIY crowd; not necessarily a bad thing but it is bad when we start judging speakers only by value and not by the total package
3. SPL competition


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

IF car audio is installing audio in cars, how is any of this bad?



> 1. Internet pricing
> 2. DIY crowd; not necessarily a bad thing but it is bad when we start judging speakers only by value and not by the total package
> 3. SPL competition


Or is car audio professional installers only?


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## Excellrec (Oct 22, 2007)

Defeatist attitudes.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

AzGrower said:


> Forgive my naiveness, and not trying to re-open a can o worms here, but which Don are we talking about? Don Smith who sells CDT (amongst other brands of course)? The owner of Island Sound? Or somebody else?


the don that is our resident rainbow pimp. don from island sound is also a top notch dude to deal with and chat with. most (if not all) the cdt products i've used have come from him through other people since i buy used/bought but never installed stuff mostly.


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## Daishi (Apr 18, 2006)

1) iPod
2) Ignorance that car audio means being heard from 3 miles out
3) PITA OEM systems

The reason I think the iPod is killing audio (not just SQ) is kids will spend a few hundred bucks on a nice HU, decent speakers and then feed them a horribly low bitrate song from their iPod and wonder why it sounds almost exactly the same as their old crappy stereo. After dealing with this for a week or two they come to the conclusion they spent all that money for little to no gain and won't buy anything else. When you explain to them about encoding in a higher bitrate or lossless they refuse to because then they can't pack 10,000 song onto it for that 20 minute drive they have and it''ll take up space on their computer. In the end it's affecting sales after a HU and MAYBE speakers.

I was working on my mid/tweet pillars a few weekends ago when some family stopped by. They asked me what I was doing and I get a response back "so you're gonna be heard from 6 blocks away now huh?" I had to of course try to explain that there is a big difference between going for huge SPL or going for decent SQ. I thought I was making progress and then I hear "I wouldn't spend the money to do anything like that, I would never be able to notice a difference anyways, and besides I don't want to be heard down the street." Basically, people outside of the car audio crowd don't understand that they can actually get decent sound for a decent price and not be viewed like some 17 y/o with 10 12" subs in the back of his Honda CRX.

Factory integration is KILLING the industry. More and more cars are ending up with the HVAC and the radio intertwined, which forces one to spend gobs of money just to be able to get a signal out of their usually crappy factory radio or figure out how to desolder and resolder PCB's so they can move HVAC functionality somewhere else, OR they have to spend $200 on a dash kit. Then you have to deal with correcting the usual factory auto EQ action on lower frequencies which can cost over $200 OR having to run an external DSP (not a bad thing of course). When it's all said and done they either spend $400 to replace their factory HU with an entry level radio, or they end up spending $400 to KEEP their factory HU and get the ability to actually correct the signal from it. This is causing more and more people to just decide "ugh, it's just not worth the effort anymore." I have three close friends who have come to that conclusion in the last 2 years. One used to drop between $2-4k a system in his older cars, now he won't due to the increased cost and hassle of modding the factory system.

Christ, it makes it even worse when OEM units are now coming with things like SRS (which has been around for years in the aftermarket). Now you get all these morons running around saying "Now for the cost of a $3k aftermarket system I can get the equivalent installed and warrantied for only $2.5k." It's marketing and consumer idiocy at it's finest. I got into an online pissing contest with a couple of guys on a Subaru board over this. They would say **** like "Just go in sit in a car and THEN come tell me what you think then." To which I replied "I sat in a better version of it six year ago when I put in my X869 with SRS and full audio compliment and I wasn't impressed." Granted, they were talking about CS and I was talking about WoW. So when getting the oil changed at the dealer I decided WTH and gave one of the new rides a listen. It wasn't HORRIBLE, but it was nowhere near worth the money they were quoting for it and on top of it the technology it's using is old news to the aftermarket industry. In the end I see how the masses get sucked into that crap line of thinking and settle for it because it's better than the last OEM system they had.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

TEAM SHIMANO/FALCON said:


> the don that is our resident rainbow pimp. don from island sound is also a top notch dude to deal with and chat with. most (if not all) the cdt products i've used have come from him through other people since i buy used/bought but never installed stuff mostly.


The Don from island sounds is the authorized distributor for cdt in NY/NJ area as well and sopped selling all other brands. Both legit guys and I wouldnt hesitate to deal with any of them. 

The word of marketing/sales has changed. Everything is purchased on the internet for cheaper because there is no overhead. Even JL knows this as they just went over to Crutchfield. Its a shame that car audio shops have to result to selling rims as their main source of income. people who are willing to adapt to the change and use the internet instead of fight it like the Dons are the only ones who will still be able to survive in this field. 

Im sure there's a lot of non specifics Im not aware of since I'm not being authorized to sell anything. But to an outsider, you have to adapt to the new preferred method of shopping. 

I assume brands like zapco and arc will follow follow suit in time, as stores will sell their produce on line whether they like it or not.

So whats killing Car Audio if it's dying at all, is the resistance to change. The stores that wont install anything you bring in, I can understand a premium, but I brought some old school Zapco amps to my last installer years ago and got "schooled" on how they are outdated and I really should upgrade to whatever their push brand is. 

All stores should develop a website or a web presence. Sink or swim because smart installers are doing installs in their home and sometimes not selling any gear. There will always be a need for skilled installers, but there is little to no need for car audio salesmen at a brick and morter store anymore.


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## kimokalihi (May 27, 2007)

durwood said:


> Stereo.....monophonic is where it's at muahahahahah!
> 
> 
> 1) Our generation is a throw away generation who also demands cheap product but still wants good and worth every penny.
> ...


I gotta agree with this. It's a very expsensive hobby, as most hobbies are. Your family and friends and everyone just always seems to be telling you how to spend your money and how you're wasting it. After a while it makes you feel like crap. 

You're stuck thinking,"Were you working your ass off for this money? No? Well, then STFU! Just because you don't understand how this makes me happy and is something I really enjoy doing, doesn't give you the right to critisize my financial business". 

Nobody has told me my stuff sucks because I don't know anyone with anything better. Which isn't saying much because I don't know anyone else who's into car audio. But I know plenty who are driving around with subs in their cars who think they rule the streets.


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## jj_diamond (Oct 3, 2007)

preech brutha!!


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## chadillac3 (Feb 3, 2006)

One thing no one has mentioned in this thread is this:

OEM systems sound lightyears better than they did in the past!!!! The stock Boston Acoustics system in my Charger was more tonally balanced than 95% of the aftermarket systems I've heard, and had ample bass for the masses. Dyn is available in VW and Volvo. The Bose system in the new G35S is said to be really good. Car manufacturers are starting to care enough about the sound that they're starting to work with the audio manu when designing the car.

It's really hard for an industry to survive when their customers are no longer there.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

It does crack me up that an "aux in" is now considered a selling point of a car. When I see that on a car add, I just think, hmm, it costs under 100 for that, but the ipod generation are like yayyyyy.


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## Bluto Blutarsky (Apr 1, 2007)

chadillac3 said:


> One thing no one has mentioned in this thread is this:
> 
> OEM systems sound lightyears better than they did in the past!!!! The stock Boston Acoustics system in my Charger was more tonally balanced than 95% of the aftermarket systems I've heard, and had ample bass for the masses. Dyn is available in VW and Volvo. The Bose system in the new G35S is said to be really good. Car manufacturers are starting to care enough about the sound that they're starting to work with the audio manu when designing the car.
> 
> It's really hard for an industry to survive when their customers are no longer there.


 Yes, the sound systems in new cars are substantially better than they were. It is now a niche business instead of a shop on every corner. The strong will adapt and survive. Right now seems like remote start and alarms but, once the OEM installs it who knows................


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

AVI said:


> Don .... I refuse to take part in a keyboard war with you on this forum. I simply told the truth. If you have anything to say , you can PM me directly and keep this forum professional.


You opened the door and I simply walked in. Did you know think I would respond? IF you actually wanted to leave this professional (a skill you severely lack) you would have worded better than taking blantant stabs at me.

Further more save your time of typing PMs starting with " You are a real piece of ****" or titled "One more thing *******". THAT shows Alot of proffessionalism huh?

You also stated that Im the only rep that sells discounted rates on forums. Guess again, how do you think transhippers get away with so much? Are you gonna tell me reps know and enforce rules? Negative. Furthermore I am a Legitimate Retailer and I sell those products as a FULLY AUTHORIZED retailer and yes via the net. Steven in fact dropshipped for most of AUTHORIZED net retailers. I don'ty solicit ebay or even host a estore, strictly just to forums.

You tell me/us your shop couldnt sell anything because *I* was hurting your business, yet you never had ONE DAMN product to sell EVER. You preach the need to have product in stock, yet you NEVER did.

Noone would have known that post was directed towards me? Maybe for someone as dimly lit as yourself, but with keywords like: Rainbow/Don/East Coast/Rep it's Quite easy to tell Exactly who was targeted.

Your lies of the photo shoot are just that, more lies. As of course expected from someone that creates lies to better his self esteem. You think I would post something without factual backing? Your dead wrong, I am not You. I spoke with Steven MINUTES prior to posting that statement. When YOUR schedule allows you will try for another shoot? Its been over a friggen year, you bought Well Below dealer cost, a little respect for a company that reached out and allowed you do that goes a long way, but as usual your lack of respect goes a long way.

Of course as always avoid responding to the other questions at hand that you've managed to avoid over the years from other members calling you on. Again .. no surprise there.

Don't call someone out and then expect to hide info in PM's You made the first post public why shouldnt the rest be?


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

For everyone else ... My apologies for this getting so off topic and my use of a bit of vulgarity. I responded as I would have in person or via phone and didn't hold back enough.


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## Kai Winters (Apr 28, 2007)

Car audio integration is a blow to the industry imo. The factory audio system sounds reasonably well to the average buyer. The aggravation of buying a special adapter...like the $150 it cost me for the adapter in my '04 Accord...to allow a single or double din unit to fit in the dash is enough to scare the average car owner away as well.
When the factory claims the car has a high end system installed but the hardware itself is generally average stuff with exagerated specs...87 speakers does not a quality system make.

Internet sales has possibly made it more difficult for some shops to prosper but on the whole I think it has increased the audio industry in general. It is still "buyer be aware and beware" but it has always been this way. The good or bad reputation a local shop has is similar just on a smaller scale with the same ability or inability to have money refunded on bad gear when the shop is here one day and gone the next. Being a diy'er for around 35 years I have seen the "good, bad and ugly" of this over and over.

Internet sales allows the average person to buy gear that was only dreamed of in the past. Most shops can only carry so much stock and that is no surprise and expected by me. I can not hold that against them. However if said shop does not carry a brand of gear I want installed and I have bought it from elsewhere I see no reason they would not install it. Being charged a bit more for having it installed is fair in my opinion since they are not making profit on the gear. Not taking ownership for how the gear may sound is also fair and expected. How can you expect them to say the gear will perform well and sound great if they have no experience with it?

I think car audio is alive and well overall. More people have so much more audio/video gear in their cars today than ever make the industry robust. Good local shops make it awesome for the average buyer that wants some gear but has neither the time or ability to do the work themselves.


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## Bluto Blutarsky (Apr 1, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> For everyone else ... My apologies for this getting so off topic and my use of a bit of vulgarity. I responded as I would have in person or via phone and didn't hold back enough.


 I think you are holding back o' plenty. I knew by his post he was speaking about you specifically and I don't know either of you outside this forum. Seems like there has been some issues on here as of late, it must be the new server


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## Miska (Jul 25, 2007)

*****A consumers side*****

I don't go to car audio shops anymore....

Every time I have dealt with any of the local car audio shops. I have left with a bad taste in my mouth.
I have sales people read me specs right off the side of the box, try and sell me things that wouldn't help me achieve my goals and try and sell me components because they have cool lights. 
So I think, OK lets try a few of the local ' hi end shops '. Yet again bad experience. I was met with arrogance and ego's. I don't want to know how many trophies you have and I don't want to buy your favorite speakers and amps. I want someone to ask me questions about my goals, dreams and budget and help me find a happy balance.
I hope that most of these car audio shops do go out of business this way it can weed out the mouth breathers and the my stuff is the best people.
I know there is quality sales people and installers out there I just don't have time to drive everywhere and talk to every Tom Dick and Harry. 
If you want to blame anything (as commented before) its DIY.com's. If it wasn't for the forums I would still be buying and installing using local shops. Forums have helped me understand what I _*really*_ want and need. DIY's have taut me how to install properly, tune and fabricate my own things. I have found people like *Don* that will sit on the phone and talk to you just to listen and inform, if a sale comes out of it, then so be it. I don't give a crap where his shop is. Sounds like a smart man, overhead sucks. 
Sites like Diymobileaudio, elitecaraudio and fiberglassforums have helped me achieve my goals in car audio. Not the shops in my area.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

Miska said:


> *****A consumers side*****
> 
> I don't go to car audio shops anymore....
> 
> ...


*****the sales side*****

Customers from BBS forums (back in the 1990's) would come in knowing _everything_ - and will not hesitate to correct you (wrong or right). These customers spend an hour of your time asking "what about this one?" and take you out to their car telling you about their hopes and dreams. Their dream system might cost more than their car, which is usually a five or six-year-old import compact. Then, they disappear - and come back six months later with another plan.

We didn't sell stuff with fancy lights, AUX inputs (although I did build interfaces) and video screens. Some of this stuff didn't exist, but there was always the "just for looks" corner of the shop. I personally sold SQ. I wouldn't touch SPL (in sales). It was a personal dillema for me (which eventually drove me out of the business...but I'll save those stories for another time). 

Whether or not these folks were interested in actually purchasing equipment, their presence became an annoyance (I'm talking after years of this). And, through course of conversation, we'd be able to group these guys together into some audio club or online presence. So, to be honest, these guys know you're probably not there to buy anything. Most car audio sales are on commission and they can't feed their families when they're not selling you products.

EDIT: Let me add that the above was an editorial on a personal experience from many years ago. I will take the time to explan *anything* you need to know if you ever have questions about something I'm selling.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

Thank goodness for the internet...the customer does not have to deal with the inflated egos of the know-it-all salespeople whose experience does not extend outside the products stocked in their store and the salespeople don't have waste their time talking to the know-it-all annoying customers who may not purchase anything during their initial visit. Its a win-win situation.


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## Abmolech (Nov 2, 2006)

> Thank goodness for the internet...the customer does not have to deal with the inflated egos of the know-it-all salespeople whose experience does not extend outside the products stocked in their store and the salespeople don't have waste their time talking to the know-it-all annoying customers who may not purchase anything during their initial visit. Its a win-win situation.


Great post.
Are the shops or the customer profiting from this? 

It is the consumer that should be driving the market.
The amount of times I would like to talk about a purchase in an empty (customer) shop, and they would not even give me the time of day.
If thats all you have to offer, then I will buy on price.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

CMR22 said:


> Thank goodness for the internet...the customer does not have to deal with the inflated egos of the know-it-all salespeople whose experience does not extend outside the products stocked in their store and the salespeople don't have waste their time talking to the know-it-all annoying customers who may not purchase anything during their initial visit. Its a win-win situation.


Hah. Nice one. But you're mistaken - these people never bought anything for years - and never seemed to buy anything elsewhere. They "made the rounds" and wasted everyone's time. Of course, this is the extreme.
The rest of the post is quite relevant, so you can take your cheap shot elsewhere.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

Every salesman has to deal with tire kickers no matter what they sell. I deal with it every day. It's part of the business and you either learn to deal with it or move on to a different vocation. It was not a "cheap shot" by any stretch of the imagination.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

CMR22 said:


> Every salesman has to deal with tire kickers no matter what they sell. I deal with it every day. It's part of the business and you either learn to deal with it or move on to a different vocation. It was not a "cheap shot" by any stretch of the imagination.


Really? You weren't being sarcastic? OK, my fault. It really seemed pointed at my response, but you know how things can be read into online. My apologies.

I wasn't in sales, except for backup when someone was out sick (or hungover...heh). I much rather preferred my repair cave.


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

JoeHemi57 said:


> this has always bothered me, i work in the parts dept at a car dealership and we don't charge more labor if someone brings their own parts. i can understand not wanting to install used equipment but other than that i consider it a bad business practice.


We do this dew to people bringing in items off ebay & installing it to find out it dose not work or it is a POS..
My installers are the blame Cuz the seller said it was great & worked just fine.. we do offer life time on the install.. I hope most shops do..
we dont install Remote starts that we dont sell..


I love it when young kids come in & say Im lookin to get this sub I found n the internet called Sound Splinter..I always say oh hell yeah sweet I had one
And then we start talking forum chat.. i have met lots of people off CA its kinda neet..


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## Thumper26 (Sep 23, 2005)

i think the ipod and mp3 is the biggest downfall. lower quality source music means it doesn't need the higher quality speakers/amps/cd players to play it. kis are listening to 128k through theap headphones and think it's great.

there's just not a demand for good quality equipment anymore.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

tr0y_audi0 said:


> I love it when young kids come in & say Im lookin to get this sub I found n the internet called Sound Splinter..I always say oh hell yeah sweet I had one
> And then we start talking forum chat.. i have met lots of people off CA its kinda neet..


That is refreshing. Every time I bring up a brand name which that particular store does not sell, I either get a blank stare or comments such as "SEAS? WTF is that? Let me show you some Kicker comps". If someone is truly committed to the hobby, they would take the time to expand their horizons and learn everything they can, even about products they do not sell.


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## tr0y_audi0 (Feb 13, 2007)

I would love to weedout Kicker & Kenwood ect ect
And get Zed,Zapco,Focal,Hertz..ect ect
but I dont think I have the right kind of buyers in the area..
I have afew Home Audio Guys that i will do a System for that will be very nice.. but For now It will be Clarion,Alpine or Pioneer decks with RE,Alpine or kicker speakers. 
I try my best to teach people about sound stage, & getting a SQ or SQl system setup..
Im trying to do my part to keep Car Audio cool & fun aswell as a great Time with the sales men..


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## Kahooli (Oct 17, 2007)

wow this thread got huge fast...

Not too on topic, but I don't think NpDang had his Reference 12 being sold in any shops. Such a sonic wonder...
AE speakers is another small shop, I've never heard of them in a store.
IIRC Ascendant Audio only has a couple dealers, one being soundsolutionsaudio.

The internet is so fabulous for gaining accesss to quality products, I don't think It killed car audio, just changed the way people access their product.
But that's only the niche market I guess. It kinda blew all the well known brands into fleabay pricing, where you can buy two kicker comps originals for like 125 for two, when back when I was first going to the only local audio shop, they were like 150 each. Hell MA audio was expensive at teh shop.

and when it comes to quality, I dont understand how people can say that everything made today is sh1t compared to everything previous.
If that were truly the case, companies would just use those old designs again in a new heatsink packages. I love my old amps, I respect my new ones. The only true difference I see is the amount of integrated parts, features, and overrating of specs in general.


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## Miska (Jul 25, 2007)

ezaudio said:


> *****the sales side*****
> 
> Customers from BBS forums (back in the 1990's) would come in knowing _everything_ - and will not hesitate to correct you (wrong or right). These customers spend an hour of your time asking "what about this one?" and take you out to their car telling you about their hopes and dreams. Their dream system might cost more than their car, which is usually a five or six-year-old import compact. Then, they disappear - and come back six months later with another plan.
> 
> ...


_you're probably not there to buy anything_

I hope your not putting me in the same category as the guy thats not there to buy anything. Thats just not true. As I get older my time is worth more than gold and if I had ever found someone that could give me quality advice and professional results I would have used them. PERIOD!! I can make a buck I cant buy time. I am NOT saying all sales and installers are full of crap(just most of them ). I'm using MY personal exp. to justify my reasoning why my dollar/time are spend this way


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## Miska (Jul 25, 2007)

I guess my point is now, why do you need a sales person. All you need to do is ask a few of the many talented / experienced people on these DIY forums(its not hard to figure out which know what there talking about) the questions you have and wait for an answer while your sitting at your desk or at home on the couch. later, figure yep this is what I want. Give someone a call and order it.
 Now if I could find a fabricator/installer in my area that knew what they were doing I would gladly pay them to do the custom work(enclosures, kicks ect.). 
To get the job done, the way I wanted it, I had to send my pillars to a guy in Atlanta for fabrication . I just didn't have the time to do them myself.
Oh I found him by seeing his pillars on customtacos.com. Yet another DIY forum.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

Miska said:


> _you're probably not there to buy anything_
> 
> I hope your not putting me in the same category as the guy thats not there to buy anything. Thats just not true. As I get older my time is worth more than gold and if I had ever found someone that could give me quality advice and professional results I would have used them. PERIOD!! I can make a buck I cant buy time. I am NOT saying all sales and installers are full of crap(just most of them ). I'm using MY personal exp. to justify my reasoning why my dollar/time are spend this way


Hey hey, man...no hard feelings. The post wasn't about you!! It was more like a point/counterpoint. I would spend many hours with folks and they'd build a huge system. Sometimes all at once, and other times over a year. I was able to use Vifa, Scan-Speak and Madisound's house brand in my customer's cars because I cared more about SQ than making a big bonus at the end of the year. I made my money repairing car audio, not selling it. My sense of value came from making people happy, not making a fistful of money. So, I guess I wasn't a great salesman, because my heart ruled out.

Since I'm here, the reason I stopped working in car audio was because of the SPL movement. Where I lived (and I would think this is fairly universal), the people most into SPL were the ones that couldn't afford it. Remember, this was before the $200 1000W amps. There was a couple that regularly came in driving a relatively old car and the husband would buy the top of the line PG equipment for a competition he planned to enter. They soon had a new baby and he worked three jobs to support his car audio habit. This in and of itself is fine with me, if it's your hobby; but the story gets much worse. They, of course, fought over money problems while he kept buying more equipment and furthering themselves into deep debt. He was convinced that he could win a regional competition. Everytime they visited the store, they'd actually talk a little about the trouble they had, but they always bought something anyway. Friends of theirs would tell us more about their financial problems - which were staggering. We didn't see or hear from them in several months, then his wife came in alone with their baby. She was in tears talking to the salesman. I walked behind the demo board to listen in a bit. Her husband was working such long hours that he was regularly falling asleep between shifts. One night before work, his wife came out to the garage after noticing her husband hadn't left for work. She found him dead in his car, apparently passed out from CO poisoning. He had started the car, and before opening the door, had fallen asleep never to wake up. At first, many of their friends thought it was suicide, but no note was found and we all trusted that it was a fatal accident rather than an ominous plot. 

That event was very traumatic, but it was not the only event that shaped my career path. One car I worked on had 1.3M in cocaine hidden behind the back seat. Another customer was shot at (drug deal gone bad) and his system stolen and the guy brings the car in for ANOTHER system to be installed. The car still had bullet holes in it.  

It's more than I could take. I was 23 when I quit the business.


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## 95Legend (Jun 24, 2005)

I've been out of the car audio loop for almost 2 years now. The lack of competition around here made me not want to do anything with my own car. After countless of tuning, I have nothing to compare my system with. Back in the days, if I heard a system that dwarfed mine, I would have spent hours tuning it just to get back on top.

None of that ever happens anymore. I have no reason to upgrade or continue the sport. Which is sad because car audio has always been my favorite hobby.


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## 3.5max6spd (Jun 29, 2005)

I have only 1 gripe right now with the business...thats actual car audio DISTRIBUTORS banking on not only selling to the dealer network but also setting up shop backdoor on ebay to dump product near or below dealer cost. Right now they are the ones both making their cake and eating it too.


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## Miska (Jul 25, 2007)

3.5max6spd said:


> I have only 1 gripe right now with the business...thats actual car audio DISTRIBUTORS banking on not only selling to the dealer network but also setting up shop backdoor on ebay to dump product near or below dealer cost. Right now they are the ones both making their cake and eating it too.


Totally agree!!
I think if more people understood this, some would detour from buying from them.
I was very ignorant of this problem until someone on the site talked to me about it. 
Don't forget about your own brothers out there selling to people like woofers etc. That doesn't help either.


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## Miska (Jul 25, 2007)

ezaudio,

Sorry about getting my panties in a twist. The way you worded it I felt it was a jab at me. 

That accident is fairly common. I had a family member start her car without opening the garage door. She heard the phone ring and went inside. They found her next to her car. Why she didn't open the garage door when she walked back in, nobody knows. The button was right next to the door. It happens very fast...sad


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

I think that the main thing that is discouraging car audio is US

most people on this forum would laugh someone who came into this forum asking advice for their legacy speakers and pyle amps would laugh at them and tell them to go buy new gear before they can have a decent sounding system instead of helping them with installation advice.

it only takes a couple of negative comments about someone's budget or choice of gear to get them to stop coming on here and get them to be completely disinterested in car audio.


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## Miska (Jul 25, 2007)

Sassmastersq said:


> I think that the main thing that is discouraging car audio is US
> 
> most people on this forum would laugh someone who came into this forum asking advice for their legacy speakers and pyle amps would laugh at them and tell them to go buy new gear before they can have a decent sounding system instead of helping them with installation advice.
> 
> it only takes a couple of negative comments about someone's budget or choice of gear to get them to stop coming on here and get them to be completely disinterested in car audio.


Why don't you pull a few threads to back this up. If not go back to Canada! 

Just teasing ya. I would like to see some proof of this though. That is a pretty profound statment.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

whats killing car audio is THIS THREAD seriously, why are we argueing about this and why isnt this in OT?


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

bobditts said:


> whats killing car audio is THIS THREAD seriously, why are we argueing about this and why isnt this in OT?


Perhaps because it IS general car audio related? Just a guess though.


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## Miska (Jul 25, 2007)

I thought it was kinda fun 
Just dont think you can hammer on the US just because your dollar is worth more for now!


Ok I'll quit


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

Miska said:


> Why don't you pull a few threads to back this up. If not go back to Canada!
> 
> Just teasing ya. I would like to see some proof of this though. That is a pretty profound statment.


I've seen it on a lot of forums (I don't hang on this forum much) I used to moderate the canadian car audio forum. When someone comes into most forums looking for "good sounding speakers" 90% of the replies are for focal or DLS, or some other exclusive brand. same goes for amps, subs etc. and anyone else who doesn't recommend those brands is labeled as being ignorant or stupid, or just doesn't have any experience.

I'd like to see people encourage newbies to get to the best that their current or affordable gear can get them, and then after they've gone as far as they can, THEN encourage them to upgrade.

There are too many people who think that their ultra exclusive gear, poorly installed, is the shiznit, and someone else with cheaper gear must not be as good (I killed a guy who thought that way at my first Iasca competition)

It's like SPL shows... the dBdragger who's hitting 150s will destroy everyone at a local show, and usually most of those people will never try to compete again, but if you let people get as good as they can, then upgrade, they get way more involved, and when they get some better gear, they'll be a lot better off.


All this said, I've used DLS, Kicker, and old skool RF, but now I'm building a system with sony amps, just so I can say I beat people with focal and audisson with "only" xplod


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

Miska said:


> Just teasing ya. I would like to see some proof of this though. That is a pretty profound statment.


It absolutely happens in here. People are told to go to other forums because their install is not "SQ" or what they are selling is not "SQ".


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

CMR22 said:


> It absolutely happens in here. People are told to go to other forums because their install is not "SQ" or what they are selling is not "SQ".


But here there's only one member here that consistently does that unlike other forums where the majority of the members do it.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

ca90ss said:


> But here there's only one member here that consistently does that unlike other forums where the majority of the members do it.



I know.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

ca90ss said:


> But here there's only one member here that consistently does that unlike other forums where the majority of the members do it.


I call BS. Do a search for the thread that a kid posted a while back with a video of a cell phone jumping on a roof of a vehicle. Plenty of people uproared.


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## Oliver (Jun 25, 2007)

Hey Bob, will these work for SQ?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

bobditts said:


> I call BS. Do a search for the thread that a kid posted a while back with a video of a cell phone jumping on a roof of a vehicle. Plenty of people uproared.


You cited one example. I said *consistently*.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

Here's just one example I can find more if you'd like


bobditts said:


> Judging by the install pics so far, Im assuming the OP isnt looking for an SQ setup. Im also assuming that he hasnt figured out that this is an SQ forum (see pic below). I am being pretty nice about it so far though dont ya think


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## hawkfan (May 1, 2006)

bobditts said:


> I call BS. Do a search for the thread that a kid posted a while back with a video of a cell phone jumping on a roof of a vehicle. Plenty of people uproared.


Indeed. Newbies don't get much respect on most car audio forums unless they lick some serious boot and denigrate themselves first. They have to act like lost children just to get a viable response on some forums. The truth is that we all were newbies at some point, so why not encourage rather than bash and criticize? If a guy likes SPL as opposed to SQ, what's the harm? Both are credible hobby nowadays. Since when did car audio become some hoity toity hobby anyway? That's NOT how it started. This forum has become one of the LAST sanctuaries for down to earth discussion about car audio. I hope elitism doesn't destroy this forum like it has destroyed so many others.


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## drake78 (May 27, 2007)

hawkfan said:


> Indeed. Newbies don't get much respect on most car audio forums unless they lick some serious boot and denigrate themselves first. They have to act like lost children just to get a viable response on some forums. The truth is that we all were newbies at some point, so why not encourage rather than bash and criticize? If a guy likes SPL as opposed to SQ, what's the harm? Both are credible hobby nowadays. Since when did car audio become some hoity toity hobby anyway? That's NOT how it started. This forum has become one of the LAST sanctuaries for down to earth discussion about car audio. I hope elitism doesn't destroy this forum like it has destroyed so many others.


 I agree you got some good points made.  I saw that video and was impress. Even though I left my spl roots along time ago.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

ca90ss said:


> Here's just one example I can find more if you'd like


its funny how you try and blame me for this site being a SQ forum. Go complain to NP if you dont like it.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

bobditts said:


> its funny how you try and blame me for this site being a SQ forum. Go complain to NP if you dont like it.


I think this site is more for audio enthusiats not necessarily SQ'ers


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

bassfromspace said:


> I think this site is more for audio enthusiats not necessarily SQ'ers


Exactly, people come here trying to learn and the first response they get is from some douche telling them to go somewhere else.


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

In Canada the scene is no where near the size it is in USA.


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## MuTT (Apr 4, 2007)

Sassmastersq said:


> All this said, I've used DLS, Kicker, and old skool RF, but now I'm building a system with sony amps, just so I can say I beat people with focal and audisson with "only" xplod





 can't wait to hear it!


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## starboy869 (Dec 16, 2006)

In Canada the scene is no where near the size it is in USA. 

In my area we have now only have 2 B&M shops. Good luck trying to get them to order something for you. They'll tell you your better off buying from somewhere else. WTF!! If you wanted something that they had in stock then they're your best friend. 90% of my stuff comes from ebay / forums because my local B&M shop could care less in ordering/selling it. Hell once I wanted 3 feet of 0/1 (scrap ok) No couldn't sell me the **** in the trash, but I could buy 15ft lengths of an off brand at $7/ft. 

I think dicks at B&M shops are killing the scene.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

ca90ss said:


> Exactly, people come here trying to learn and the first response they get is from some douche telling them to go somewhere else.


they also come here for the mature attitudes. Calling someone a douche isnt exactly mature. youre just as bad as you think I am.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

bobditts said:


> they also come here for the mature attitudes. Calling someone a douche isnt exactly mature. youre just as bad as you think I am.


I may be immature but that doesn't make you any less of a douche


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

ca90ss said:


> I may be immature but that doesn't make you any less of a douche


so you admit to being a hippocrate?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

bobditts said:


> so you admit to being a hippocrate?


Afaik my immaturity has never been a problem on this forum and has never driven anyone away. Can the same thing be said about your posts?


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

ca90ss said:


> Afaik my immaturity has never been a problem on this forum and has never driven anyone away. Can the same thing be said about your posts?


I can also honestly say AFAIK none of my comments has driven anyone away. And if one of my comments did, then the other person needs to toughen up and you should also thank me for helping keep this forum the complete opposite of sound domain.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

bobditts said:


> I can also honestly say AFAIK none of my comments has driven anyone away. And if one of my comments did, then the other person needs to toughen up and you should also thank me for helping keep this forum the complete opposite of sound domain.


Wtf are you talking about? Your bashing of other people because their definition of sq is different than yours is exactly the kind of response I'd expect to see on other forums.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

ca90ss said:


> Wtf are you talking about? Your bashing of other people because their definition of sq is different than yours is exactly the kind of response I'd expect to see on other forums.


I dont bash. I remind people this is a place for SQ ear pounding bass is not SQ no matter who you are. You never answer my question about being a hippocrate


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

bobditts said:


> I I remind people this is a place for SQ ear pounding bass is not SQ no matter who you are. You never answer my question about being a hippocrate


Who says this is strictly a sq forum besides you? I've never seen npdang tell someone to go somewhere else because their question wasn't strictly sq related.

As far as being a hippocrate, I'm not sure exactly what a hippocrate is. Is it a large crate for storing hippos? I think you mean hypocrite in which case, no , I don't think I'm a hypocrite.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

ca90ss said:


> Who says this is strictly a sq forum besides you? I've never seen npdang tell someone to go somewhere else because their question wasn't strictly sq related.


when has npdang ever stepped in about anything. He is a hands off kind of guy. That is what makes this forum great. Things resove themselves. I think in the history of this site, there has only been 1 ban ever (that wasnt spam related). Let me ask you this....if you went to a forum that said "the ultimate in SPL" in the forum logo, would you ask SQ questions? No! common sense tells you to go elsewhere. Tahts like going to a maytag store and asking questions about kenmore appliances. Sure they are the same type of appliance but completely different knowledge base. 



ca90ss said:


> As far as being a hippocrate, I'm not sure exactly what a hippocrate is. Is it a large crate for storing hippos? I think you mean hypocrite in which case, no , I don't think I'm a hypocrite.


Good catch, I am a terrible speller. so you dont think trying to call someone out as being a burden to a forum for one thing and then being a burden yourself isnt hyipcritical?


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

bobditts said:


> Good catch, I am a terrible speller. so you dont think trying to call someone out as being a burden to a forum for one thing and then being a burden yourself isnt hyipcritical?


I don't think I'm a burden, my posts don't illicit the same response your posts do.


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## Sassmastersq (Jan 12, 2007)

alright, everyone has just illustrated my point.

2 douche bags
1 arguement that goes nowhere and wasts everyone's time

That would be 3 things right?


100% proof that we, the people are the problem
priceless.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

Sassmastersq said:


> alright, everyone has just illustrated my point.
> 
> 2 douche bags
> 1 arguement that goes nowhere and wasts everyone's time
> ...


 
glad to help


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

ca90ss said:


> I don't think I'm a burden, my posts don't illicit the same response your posts do.


Is that illegal? I'm sure you meant elicit.


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## ca90ss (Jul 2, 2005)

ezaudio said:


> Is that illegal? I'm sure you meant elicit.


Damn it usually I'm pretty good about those things too.


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

ca90ss said:


> Damn it usually I'm pretty good about those things too.



To me, irony is the best policy.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

bobditts said:


> when has npdang ever stepped in about anything. He is a hands off kind of guy. That is what makes this forum great. Things resove themselves. I think in the history of this site, there has only been 1 ban ever (that wasnt spam related).


Wouldnt that be a good form to follow then?



bobditts said:


> Let me ask you this....if you went to a forum that said "the ultimate in SPL" in the forum logo, would you ask SQ questions? No! common sense tells you to go elsewhere. Tahts like going to a maytag store and asking questions about kenmore appliances. Sure they are the same type of appliance but completely different knowledge base.


Do you know Everything about said person(s)? Where did they work prior to Maytag? Perhaps Sears? Common sense tells ME to ask audio related questions on an audio related site. There are plenty here that know more than a bit of SPL and vice versa on an SPL catered forum.




bobditts said:


> Good catch, I am a terrible speller. so you dont think trying to call someone out as being a burden to a forum for one thing and then being a burden yourself isnt hyipcritical?


hyipcritical?


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## hawkfan (May 1, 2006)

Sassmastersq said:


> alright, everyone has just illustrated my point.
> 
> 2 douche bags
> 1 arguement that goes nowhere and wasts everyone's time
> ...


Exactly. That brings me back to the whole elitism thing. All elitism does is alienate people. It promotes this attitude about both knowledge and equipment that "I have this and you're not worthy". I'm pretty sure that kills a lot of potential enthusiasm for those who have an interest in car audio. The average guy comes to these forums looking for help and/or advice in an attempt to IMPROVE his or her car audio experience. Help those guys out and maybe more will be drawn into this hobby.


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## khail19 (Oct 27, 2006)

This is a DIY forum. End of story.

"Sound quality" does not have a single definition, it's a subjective term. Some people like more bass than others. Arguing about what is and isn't "SQ" is pointless and retarded.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

khail19 said:


> "Sound quality" does not have a single definition, it's an objective term. Some people like more bass than others. Arguing about what is and isn't "SQ" is pointless and retarded.


If that were true, how is it that we can compete for SQ? There has to be a single definition if you can compete for something nation wide.


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## hawkfan (May 1, 2006)

bobditts said:


> If that were true, how is it that we can compete for SQ? There has to be a single definition if you can compete for something nation wide.


Actually it's quite subjective. SQ is very unlike an SPL comp where the loudest wins. There's no hard numbers or parameters to fall back on here. If that was the case IASCA judges would just play frequency sweeps and place a mic in your car. The flattest freq response wins! But I digress.To some people, a ruler flat frequency response is the ONLY way to go while others find that to be too "sterile and lifeless". They want the sparkling highs that some may find harsh and fatiguing. Some have an ear for mid bass and want that to dominate their listening experience. Who's right? Who's wrong? If anything has to be "judged" to determine a winner or the "best", it's subjective. It's whatever another guy feels sounds the best at that time.


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## MaxPowers (Oct 25, 2007)

teh word


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## Mr Marv (Aug 19, 2005)

MaxPowers said:


> teh word


Sorry to interrupt this very informative thread  but can you contact me MaxPowers (I can't send you a private message for some reason)


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## khail19 (Oct 27, 2006)

hawkfan said:


> Actually it's quite *subjective*.


That's what I meant, I had mistakenly typed objective. :blush: 



bobditts said:


> If that were true, how is it that we can compete for SQ? There has to be a single definition if you can compete for something nation wide.


Is there a single "best" way of figure skating? Boxing? Dog shows? Cooking competitions? Drifting? All of these have one thing in common, the winner is decided by judges. Not a machine or a computer, human judges with human ears. Therefore, the results will always be subjective, because humans are subjective.


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## andthelam (Aug 9, 2006)

1. Pop Music. No reason to care about sound quality when quality of music is poor. 

2. Because car audio is a inherently a "hey look at me" market, BIG names with BIG bass and BIG advertising dollars as well as BIG colorful boxes dominate sales. Leaving good research and development SQ companies from thriving. 

3. Few people care for SQ nowadays. They have even compromised our source material (mp3's) and we take that like it's a good thing? It went from Tapes to CD's (WAV) then went backwards in SQ to mp3's??


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Bob, be careful with your abrasive comments telling people they need to have thick skin. Next thing you know, you will have a group of pussies talking **** about you behind a fake account. People here have a problem with stuff like that.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> Bob, be careful with your abrasive comments telling people they need to have thick skin. Next thing you know, you will have a group of pussies talking **** about you behind a fake account. People here have a problem with stuff like that.


good point jason. i for one know from experience that an spl person can be converted to sq. i'm one of those people. i'm also one of those people who takes pride in making what they have sound great with tuning vs buying more and more equipment. i LITERALLY only have $150 in drivers (sub, mids, tweets) installed and my truck is sounding better than it ever has thanks to tuning. when i think i've hit the pinnacle i figure out how to make it even better! my fronts are set. now just need to pick the arc 12 up from dejo and will be set!

what's REALLY annoying are people who judge someone before even taking the time to get inside their head. i've met people in person and the e-world that seemed cool but then became annoying and vice versa.

as far as shops go, it's hit and miss. around here there's only one shop i'll give my business to and that's just because the man that's somewhat running it is one of the best in the country and doesn't mind helping someone out even if it means no money in his pocket. he'd rather someone get what they REALLY want vs selling them something he carries that might not fit their needs.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

hawkfan said:


> Actually it's quite subjective. SQ is very unlike an SPL comp where the loudest wins. There's no hard numbers or parameters to fall back on here. If that was the case IASCA judges would just play frequency sweeps and place a mic in your car. The flattest freq response wins! But I digress.To some people, a ruler flat frequency response is the ONLY way to go while others find that to be too "sterile and lifeless". They want the sparkling highs that some may find harsh and fatiguing. Some have an ear for mid bass and want that to dominate their listening experience. Who's right? Who's wrong? If anything has to be "judged" to determine a winner or the "best", it's subjective. It's whatever another guy feels sounds the best at that time.


I do agree that it is subjective, but only to a point. The judges are trained on what to listen for and how to score someones vehicle. Everyone uses the same score sheet. So there is a standard set. Ofcourse its hard to get exactly what the standard is, but it is still the SQ standard. The point Im trying to make is that no matter what your definition of SQ is, there is only one SQ standard. So if you are going to refer to your setup as SQ, it better be to the standard. I dont refer to my car as an SQ car. I tell people its on its way to becomming an SQ car. That is the ultimate goal. But for some of the people on here that want ear shattering bass and still want to call it SQ, thats just assinine.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> Bob, be careful with your abrasive comments telling people they need to have thick skin. Next thing you know, you will have a group of pussies talking **** about you behind a fake account. People here have a problem with stuff like that.


 
Thanks for the heads up bud, but Ill tell you what I have told others before. Im not here to impress anyone or make some sort of internet "social status". I speak what is on my mind. If people dont like it, they dont have to read it or respond to it. As far as creating rogue accounts just to talk sh!t....thats just retarded. If they want be be that childish and hide behind a different member name, whatever.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

bobditts said:


> I do agree that it is subjective, but only to a point. The judges are trained on what to listen for and how to score someones vehicle. Everyone uses the same score sheet. So there is a standard set. Ofcourse its hard to get exactly what the standard is, but it is still the SQ standard. The point Im trying to make is that no matter what your definition of SQ is, there is only one SQ standard. So if you are going to refer to your setup as SQ, it better be to the standard. I dont refer to my car as an SQ car. I tell people its on its way to becomming an SQ car. That is the ultimate goal. But for some of the people on here that want ear shattering bass and still want to call it SQ, thats just assinine.


...and that's how i came up with "team cheap bastard sq". and while sq is subjective it DOES NOT have to impress an sq judge to be considered "sq". any one of us could go to a local sq comp with everyday people competing against us and dominate. actually, one bama competitor jokes about how he won a little chickenshit local sq comp with the stock system in his ford truck tough competition huh:blush:


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

TEAM SHIMANO/FALCON said:


> ...and that's how i came up with "team cheap bastard sq". and while sq is subjective it DOES NOT have to impress an sq judge to be considered "sq". any one of us could go to a local sq comp with everyday people competing against us and dominate. actually, one bama competitor jokes about how he won a little chickenshit local sq comp with the stock system in his ford truck tough competition huh:blush:


I was referring more towards nationals. I should have clearified that. Local comps are a joke.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

just to stir your blood bob, i'm hitting upper 130's with my 12" crossfire sub in the console. non-linearity anyone?you CAN get loud and maintain good sq as long as everything can get on up there with each other. i do however agree that up past a certain volume it all becomes loud and obnoxious due to the pain threshold of the ears. i'm not afraid of the volume knob and have PLENTY of clean power to get the ears tingling when desired


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

TEAM SHIMANO/FALCON said:


> just to stir your blood bob, i'm hitting upper 130's with my 12" crossfire sub in the console. non-linearity anyone?you CAN get loud and maintain good sq as long as everything can get on up there with each other. i do however agree that up past a certain volume it all becomes loud and obnoxious due to the pain threshold of the ears. i'm not afraid of the volume knob and have PLENTY of clean power to get the ears tingling when desired


 
I have the ability to turn my volume up as well without any distortion. I dont consider it SQ anymore though. I have it set to how I enjoy the music while its that loud, but it doesnt blend nearly as well when the volume is down to a moderate listening level. I was hitting 139 with my pair of 12" mtx 8500 woofers a couple years ago in the "sq" box and it sounded nice, but it wasnt SQ. The bass was localized to the trunk. Unless you can build an enclosure in the dash to hit higher DBs and balance it all out with an appropriate number of midbass, idrange, and tweets, (basically turning your car into an actual concert stage) I dont see how it is possible to have a loud SQ vehicle. I have sat and listened to vehicles that the owners said it can do both and everytime I walked away laughing.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

sub is up front with me. no localization issues at high volumesand sounds great at all levels but tuned to sound good where i listen usually (not too loud but loud for most).


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

now Im not saying that it isnt, but just because it sounds good to you, doesnt mean that it is SQ. Have you compared the sound of your vehicle to a vehicle that has taken 1st place at a national competition?


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

I've been in and around this industry for a long time, so I have my opinions (and I won't rehash the points already brought up, although I think some really have nothing to do with the decline). So why is the industry in decline?

1. The OEMs are good and are including alot of stuff into the new cars. They figured out that a good stereo is a selling point. Mark Levinson, JBL, Bose, etc. When I was starting out, my car had a AM/FM radio. The next one had an AM/FM Cassette. My friend had an aftermarket CD player in his. I wanted the same, so I went to a shop because I didn't really have any other choice if I wanted a CD Player. 

New cars don't have that problem. No reason for them to want more because a lot of their wants are already being met. The good old days of having a customer walking in who really wanted stuff (CD player, drop down video) is over. Now they have to be sold, and many guys just aren't as good at that.

2. Manufacturers themselves. Too many of them fighting for too small of a share. Willing to cut each others' throats even if it puts both out of business. Making products people don't really want, making product to a price point, making products that are too big. Not spending money on the dealers to help them out by training, etc.

3. Number of options our traditional demographic can spend their money on. Ipod, Laptops, Gaming Consoles, etc. 

I know people mention other stuff (internet, SQ, etc.) but at the end of the day, if people don't know even know they can upgrade, where the product gets bought or the SQ of the product doesn't matter.

Juan


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

bobditts said:


> Have you compared the sound of your vehicle to a vehicle that has taken 1st place at a national competition?


yes i have. i've been in andy jones truck. sq is subjective and the staging cues is where it's at. with me being all about tonality and caring only about how the left to right staging is it's easy to get the perfect balance. i've also been in acuratlsq's car, csuflyboy's car, and several others. my credentials are there and my ears won't lie. you know you have "sq" when you can put any cd in and it will sound its best


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

right on! Matt (csuflyboy) is coming over to my place today. Im going to replenish my ears lol.


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

he had the genesis version of the scan revs, hiquefon tweets, and idw's when i heard his car. GREAT tonality. kirks car was more exciting to listen to but no way i could listen to it for extended amounts of time. kirk had the corvette of sq but matt had the cadillac of sq.


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## bobditts (Jul 19, 2006)

TEAM SHIMANO/FALCON said:


> he had the genesis version of the scan revs, hiquefon tweets, and idw's when i heard his car. GREAT tonality. kirks car was more exciting to listen to but no way i could listen to it for extended amounts of time. kirk had the corvette of sq but matt had the cadillac of sq.


Matt changed up his car again this season. He has a sub in the font now instead of the 2 15" IB subs.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

OldOneEye said:


> 2. Manufacturers themselves. Too many of them fighting for too small of a share. Willing to cut each others' throats even if it puts both out of business. Making products people don't really want, making product to a price point, making products that are too big. Not spending money on the dealers to help them out by training, etc.
> 
> Juan


In addition to the manufacturers, I'd like to add the B&M's to this mix.


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## JayBee (Oct 6, 2006)

most of the B&M's in my area have converted to the wharehouse style car audio shop. 2 install bays and a **** load of prefab boxes and grey market goods. They haven't been knowledgeable about the products that they sell and i just stopped going to them. 

i can find whatever i need on-line. I was in commissioned electronics sales for years and i had my share of looky-lous, i always vowed not to become one


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## fredridge (Jan 17, 2007)

I tend to be one of those who come in and want to get info and listen to find out more about what I want, takes me time and sometimes several trips, but eventually decide.... biggest problem has been finding a place where I can actually get info.... I do end up buying, but honestly biggest change has been my ability to get info over the net.... it is this way with cars for me, I buy one about every two years, but usually spend about 6 months shopping and driving different ones


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## WrenchGuy (Jun 10, 2007)

I think one of them is TV. You got these shows with audio installs that are mild and some crazy. People see these and think they are too much money cuz they want the fiberglass and all that jive. The custom work is too expensive for some usually costing more than the audio itself.
I think some of it is our fault also. Everyone I talk to at work bitches about the Bass when people are driving around. But when they take a listen in the Tahoe they think its really cool and dont realize its not all just subs and amps but some take time to get results. Well now I'm doing installs for people at work its pretty interesting.


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## MaxPowers (Oct 25, 2007)

Whatever is so bad about the "looky-lous"? I do that alot too, and you know why? Because I like to audition EVERY possibility I can find. Me walking into your shop and you telling me oh this is exactly what I need isnt gonna work. If I cant agree that a speaker doesnt sound good in your shop then there is no way its going in my vehicle.


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## MaxPowers (Oct 25, 2007)

WrenchGuy said:


> I think one of them is TV.  You got these shows with audio installs that are mild and some crazy. People see these and think they are too much money cuz they want the fiberglass and all that jive. The custom work is too expensive for some usually costing more than the audio itself.


Another point: $10,000 install.......and SOny Xplod speakers. WTF!?!?


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

MaxPowers said:


> Whatever is so bad about the "looky-lous"? I do that alot too, and you know why? Because I like to audition EVERY possibility I can find. Me walking into your shop and you telling me oh this is exactly what I need isnt gonna work. If I cant agree that a speaker doesnt sound good in your shop then there is no way its going in my vehicle.


While I understand your point and can even agree with it, basing decisions off a demo board wouldnt be too helpful either in alot of cases. Even if it Does sound good on display, once in the vehicle it may not..


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Mmm...no they weren't.

But if you thought his car sounded good, you should go to MECA Finals and hear Matt Robert's truck and Randy (the other hated guy) Kunin's Accord. Some of the best cars I've heard in the last 7 years.





TEAM SHIMANO/FALCON said:


> and idw's when i heard his car.


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I wanna see! I know a couple successful mechanics who have shops at home, would be cool to your setup compared to those. 



6spdcoupe said:


> It's no secret my facility is located on residential property, BUT it's a full functioning facility - large bay, fab area,large display waiting area and Im here, available and working 7 days a ****ing week.


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## MaxPowers (Oct 25, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> While I understand your point and can even agree with it, basing decisions off a demo board wouldnt be too helpful either in alot of cases. Even if it Does sound good on display, once in the vehicle it may not..


I understand that but at least it would give me some kind of reference to go buy. You dont just walk into a car dealership and buy a vehicle without test driving it do you? (Maybe you do if you got the $$$, I dunno).


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## MaxPowers (Oct 25, 2007)

*buy=by


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## Kahooli (Oct 17, 2007)

andthelam said:


> 1. Pop Music. No reason to care about sound
> 3. Few people care for SQ nowadays. They have even compromised our source material (mp3's) and we take that like it's a good thing? It went from Tapes to CD's (WAV) then went backwards in SQ to mp3's??


Just to clarify, the movement of compressed audio formats was exactly that - compressing the audio. hard disk space was at a premium 5-10 years ago, and still is. yeah you can get 500GB HD for $100 now. but do you really want to put uncompressed WAVs on there? the same goes for 'illegal' file sharing. an mp3 format of an album is 40-60 MB on average, opposed to 700 MB. it's more efficient on low bandwidth internet.


But yeah... I definitely agree that a lot of music today just isn't... well... music.
I prefer something played on an instrument, not a soundboard.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

MaxPowers said:


> I understand that but at least it would give me some kind of reference to go buy. You dont just walk into a car dealership and buy a vehicle without test driving it do you? (Maybe you do if you got the $$$, I dunno).



Thats the part I was agreeing with. 

Actually yes I do, but with a bit of research first. My last three cars .. '03 6 speed Accord, '05 G35 and current '08 TrailBlazer SS all were bought without a test drive.  And no I do Not have alot of money !


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

thehatedguy said:


> I wanna see! I know a couple successful mechanics who have shops at home, would be cool to your setup compared to those.


Sorry Jason, no pics. Maybe eventually Ill get some up. Unfortunately I am Very anal about things and the 'shop' is a mess now. I would have to do some heavy douching before it was picture ready which will not happen with remote start season upon us.


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> Thats the part I was agreeing with.
> 
> Actually yes I do, but with a bit of research first. My last three cars .. '03 6 speed Accord, '05 G35 and current '08 TrailBlazer SS all were bought without a test drive.  And no I do Not have alot of money !


x2 The last time I test drove a car was when I bought my first car, used of course, in the 1980s. By the time I actually go to the dealer, I already know exactly what I want so a 10 minute test drive with a salesman sitting next to me is not going to make a bit of difference. And I certainly do not have a lot of money.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

CMR22 said:


> x2 The last time I test drove a car was when I bought my first car, used of course, in the 1980s. By the time I actually go to the dealer, I already know exactly what I want so a 10 minute test drive with a salesman sitting next to me is not going to make a bit of difference. And I certainly do not have a lot of money.


Plus the time to find the car in the lot, get the tags to put on it for the drive, bring it around,etc... I have better things to do with my time !


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## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I understand.

Did you see Jason Syner's article about home based shops? Jason does some crazy crazy stuff.



6spdcoupe said:


> Sorry Jason, no pics. Maybe eventually Ill get some up. Unfortunately I am Very anal about things and the 'shop' is a mess now. I would have to do some heavy douching before it was picture ready which will not happen with remote start season upon us.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

CMR22 said:


> x2 The last time I test drove a car was when I bought my first car, used of course, in the 1980s. By the time I actually go to the dealer, I already know exactly what I want so a 10 minute test drive with a salesman sitting next to me is not going to make a bit of difference. And I certainly do not have a lot of money.


Did you have a mullett ala Dog when you took that test drive?


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## CMR22 (Feb 10, 2007)

bassfromspace said:


> Did you have a mullett ala Dog when you took that test drive?


LOL You have me confused with bikin*i*punk.  

I was rockin' the Don Johnson linen jacket with the sleeves rolled up.


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## sundownz (Apr 13, 2007)

IMHO... e-bay pricing killed quality and service... and inflated power specs made it almost impossible for a good and honest product to compete. 

Let me give you an example... a certain company makes a "4500-watt" amp that is the size as my SAZ-1500D with the same fusing and they sell it for less than the dealer cost of my SAZ-1500D. Now... I'm pretty sure I know exactly where that amp was built and what board it has in it based on the side panel, the size, their selling price, and the open-tool heatsink it has... if I'm right it does about 1200 watts at full bore clipping -- thats what I saw when I tested that PCB board as a sample that came through here.

So... how can a shop talk a customer into buying a quality 1500-watt amp when one with "4500-watts" written on it is sitting next to it for half the price? It's pretty hard. I see alot of local dealers that I go to pushing this cheap stuff because customer see that big number and want it.

Regardless some shops are doing it... the good ones anyway. I have managed to carve out at least a small market for Sundown out there. I try to use the internet as my friend and not my enemy despite my dealer-based model. This market is getting alot harder but it's not totally dying off yet.


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

thehatedguy said:


> I understand.
> 
> Did you see Jason Syner's article about home based shops? Jason does some crazy crazy stuff.


My best friend went to SEMA with him...very cool guy.

My friend really wants to be a part of what he was doing.


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## BlueAc (May 19, 2007)

sundownz said:


> IMHO... e-bay pricing killed quality and service... and inflated power specs made it almost impossible for a good and honest product to compete.
> 
> Let me give you an example... a certain company makes a "4500-watt" amp that is the size as my SAZ-1500D with the same fusing and they sell it for less than the dealer cost of my SAZ-1500D. Now... I'm pretty sure I know exactly where that amp was built and what board it has in it based on the side panel, the size, their selling price, and the open-tool heatsink it has... if I'm right it does about 1200 watts at full bore clipping -- thats what I saw when I tested that PCB board as a sample that came through here.
> 
> ...


http://cgi.ebay.com/BOSS-BLX4000-2-...ryZ39732QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

3,000 watts rms BABY!!! I'll put this up against your SAZ-1500D any day of the week.....

























and get my azz handed to me!!!


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## Diru (May 23, 2006)

Top three things

3: mp3`s and iPod




2: Blose





1: Yo`Mama


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

sundownz said:


> IMHO... e-bay pricing killed quality and service... and inflated power specs made it almost impossible for a good and honest product to compete.
> 
> Let me give you an example... a certain company makes a "4500-watt" amp that is the size as my SAZ-1500D with the same fusing and they sell it for less than the dealer cost of my SAZ-1500D. Now... I'm pretty sure I know exactly where that amp was built and what board it has in it based on the side panel, the size, their selling price, and the open-tool heatsink it has... if I'm right it does about 1200 watts at full bore clipping -- thats what I saw when I tested that PCB board as a sample that came through here.
> 
> ...


I think this goes back to what Juan was saying about manufacturers back biting each other. Even though companies are competitors, it's ultimately up to all the companies to see that they continue to work to create a market for their products. It always amazed me that you didn't see a more unified car audio front in terms of PR or lobbying efforts.


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## Vestax (Aug 16, 2005)

ca90ss said:


> As far as being a hippocrate, I'm not sure exactly what a hippocrate is. Is it a large crate for storing hippos? I think you mean hypocrite in which case, no , I don't think I'm a hypocrite.


LMFAO!!!!


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## ErinH (Feb 14, 2007)

CMR22 said:


> LOL You have me confused with bikin*i*punk.


Cheap blow, you bastard!

haha


"you better watch out, talkin to bikinpunk like that"


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## Hillbilly SQ (Jan 26, 2007)

Diru said:


> Top three things
> 
> 3: mp3`s and iPod
> 
> ...


WINNAR!


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Depends on who you ask and what..

Top 3 things killing car audio for the dealer? 
or 
Top 3 things killing car audio for the consumer?

Understanding that I'm not a dealer, but I do say now having spoke to a few in here, there are actually some good guys in the business, but "full" and "MSRP" and "Retail" are things I just don't do.. anywhere.. Unless there's a freakish level of service that comes with that.. and I do find value in service so I believe with solid service it's worth it. However, going to my local one decent dealer.. I have yet to find that, so it's online and deal hunting for non-value-added.. just the box and hope it plays. It's kind of a shame.

Being a consumer rather than a dealer, I can speak to the latter:

1. The market of ever-cheaper garbage, the stereotypes of car audio... 

This drives the product quality down, helping neither dealers or buyers as the market for real quality car hi-fi is thin, driving costs higher and offerings less. Many become simply afraid to approach their local dealers as they have bad stereotypes and prejudices in their mind, so the potential customers have really nowhere to go but online, and this hurts the good-guy dealers that actually have value to offer above just the stupid product as well. I think the dealer stereotype in many cases is false, though I don't happen to think so with my local dealer.. so I never bother to give them a bid.. at all.. all of 15 minutes from my house.. it's a shame. I think this is a thing that's hurting All consumer electronics though.. not just car audio.. Can you see any value whatsoever in actually talking to some guy in the big-screen section of Circuit City??? hehehe... I worked there long ago, and I can say, then or now.. uh.. nope.

2. CAR OEM design...

Ever increasingly difficult OEM dash setups and integrated audio / HVAC.. Makes it hard on both dealer and buyer for solutions. The OEM integration market is too slow to react with only maybe one handful of offerings to get a good CD signal to good aftermarket amps.

3. Licensing and all the other legal business that keeps technology behind... 

Why is it incredibly rare to see any kind of digital output from lossless files on an iPod? (may just be my ignorance)... There's one player I know of that pulls digital from an iPod and it has NO processing. Let's face it, the average consumer of normal car audio and high-end car audio alike would gladly get rid of all those CD's in their car if they could get the same sound quality and well processed signals from these digi-audio players that are everywhere now.. or usb sticks, sd sticks or whatever digital source. Rehashing still the tired old single-din CD units in hopes they come out with one that actually has some metal in it and actually has some solid hi-fi design and processing, then being short changed because the new ones rob Peter to pay Paul to keep them cheap enough for college kids. Slow reactions and silly products like that stupid clarion bluetooth head unit. Missed the mark on that one I'd say.


.... These are just opinions, not meaning to offend at all (again I know a lot of you guys in here are great conscientious and honest dealers), so one effort here to throw out a non-dealers perspective and maybe learn something from the other side of the fence of you guys that actually attempt to make a living in this biz.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

Vestax said:


> LMFAO!!!!


I ship my big subwoofers in a "hippocrate"


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## MuTT (Apr 4, 2007)

well my hair dryer says it does 1500 watts, no matter what angle i put it on the A pillar, it still sounds like ****!

Consumer ignorance and the length of time to gain knowledge me thinks are big ones.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

I would like to maybe clarify the question. Is it "what is killing car audio... that is exclusive to our business" or "what is killing car audio"?

Reason I bring it up is that everyone is dealing with Ipods (Sony Walkman for example), Internet (audio, clothes, you name it), demand for cheap (walmart, target, etc.), but few if any other industries have to deal with pretty good OEM systems and hard to replace OEM systems.

Juan


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

bikinpunk said:


> Cheap blow, you bastard!
> 
> haha
> 
> ...



Who the hell is that?  The next dog?


----------



## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Diru said:


> Top three things
> 
> 3: mp3`s and iPod
> 
> ...



#1.... 2's  

I bame it partially on the MP3 but not all the way. Every generation is going to have their '45. I yanked out some old well worn cassetes tonight from the wifey's collection. They sound FAR worse than my MP3's will in 15 years  On a Nak 700II 

The **** hit the fan when Alpine and RF sold out and others followed suit. The morons took over and the rest is history IMHO. I mean ****, the local Jerkit Silly had their WHOLE ****ing sound board 180deg out of phase! AND would not take a hint, even when I went in with a phase popper to help them! I was dubbed a biggot!

OTOH Car audio.. sheesh.. How about HiFi!?

There was always a cool joint around the corner to go dream and grab some tunes, not snobbish, looking for a future customer, even if you WERE mowing yards. I still bought the first CD player out under 500 bones from them!

It's everywhere.
Chad


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

cajunner said:


> Music will still be mastered to the loudest possible (and beyond) bit, Compression will still be ever compressing life from the sound, and a whole generation has developed not knowing the difference between timbre and tonality, air and depth notwithstanding the onslaught either.
> 
> You could talk this stuff with people who soldered their own tube amps and built their speakers back when everyone did that, and their was an expectation, even if the tech might have been a bit primitive.
> 
> People just don't care en masse, whether the sound is fantastic, because as long as it's "better than stock" they can't really do a competent eval anyway.


Well done, I forgot to add those points!


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## Babs (Jul 6, 2007)

Agreed... In order to charge closer to a grand for a head unit, they're moving increasingly to the 2-din DVD units, and forgetting the use of technology to create a solid 2-channel stereo image and soundstage... I think because there are just a few folks, like most of us here, that understand the concepts of digital time alignment and fighting the inherent problems with speaker placement and "room" correction in a car to deliver a solid stereo sound.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

AVI said:


> Internet sales .... In my old shop , we battled DAILY with people quoting internet pricing. It used to be , a good salesman could overcome this with quality arguments for buying from an authorized dealer , but not any more.
> People are willing to buy for cheap prices , reasoning they can just replace it if it goes bad , for cheap pricing once again.
> It got soooo bad , we ended up placing a sign behind the counter. this sign stated :
> 
> ...


You wouldn't happen to be the same owner of so many VERY SUCCESSFUL UPSCALE AUDIO SHOPS from the ca.com boards would you?

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156436

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=158012

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178941

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156436

http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156802

You seem to be somewhat more modest here... Not bragging about this and that constantly...

Just amuses me that someone as impressive as yourself has to resort to throwing a well respected member under the bus with grossly inaccurate statements. If you are blue, i'd just like to mention that you are one of the most arrogant sob's i have ever encountered.... on the internet, or not.


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## Hi There (Mar 16, 2007)

Does anyone else that remembers the not-so-long-ago days of the cassette tape head unit, where the high-end questions were whether or not it had Dolby noise reduction and a good capstan/head mechanism think it's odd that people complain about the state of a modern industry where 44.1 khz CD is the norm, indeed a given in a head unit these days? 

Say what you will about sound quality and bling (and yes, I think there's much more to be done in this regard), but even the most hackneyed head unit on sale at your local box store can do donuts around what was available at the same price back then.


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## npdang (Jul 29, 2005)

Hi There said:


> Does anyone else that remembers the not-so-long-ago days of the cassette tape head unit, where the high-end questions were whether or not it had Dolby noise reduction and a good capstan/head mechanism think it's odd that people complain about the state of a modern industry where 44.1 khz CD is the norm, indeed a given in a head unit these days?
> 
> Say what you will about sound quality and bling (and yes, I think there's much more to be done in this regard), but even the most hackneyed head unit on sale at your local box store can do donuts around what was available at the same price back then.


Yeah I do... I remember I paid $350 for an Alpine deck that had track seek too, where it could find the silence between tracks. Most badass thing ever.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

npdang said:


> Yeah I do... I remember I paid $350 for an Alpine deck that had track seek too, where it could find the silence between tracks. Most badass thing ever.


Making me feel old...... stoppit :blush:  
wish I could remember the model number of my shaft style, motorized load and eject.... too cool


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## ///Audience (Jan 31, 2007)

Sex Cells said:


> You wouldn't happen to be the same owner of so many VERY SUCCESSFUL UPSCALE AUDIO SHOPS from the ca.com boards would you?
> 
> http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156436
> 
> ...



wowwow!. the one about the headunits ammused me!


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## envisionelec (Dec 14, 2005)

chad said:


> Making me feel old...... stoppit :blush:
> wish I could remember the model number of my shaft style, motorized load and eject.... too cool


I've got a Kenwood fixed DIN dead head circa 1985 with Dolby B and C, all the motorized stuff and track seek. You can push the seek button multiple times and the LED (yes LED) display counts up how many tracks you wish to seek. It's in really good shape, but I have no cassettes or a car that needs an 80's ghettoblaster (though it's on my list).


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## DNB (Oct 26, 2007)

read a few pages... and im confused.... are we talking about the industry dying because omeone cant make money on it? or the dying of the enthusiasts that DIY....

honestly im definetly all about custom unique home made ****...
so the industry to me is more alive then ever.

the complex systems now adays are a pain in the aSS considering you cant even remove the stock radio or half your dash will be missing. which is a big BITC...

however along with that said i notice alot more people gettin lazier and lazier about everything they do... meaning they just prefer it being handed to them on a silver platter compared to working for somethign... not that it wasnt like that not too long ago... but shizz is just gettin out of hand.

so most engineers end up trading off DIY and hobbies into working for a car company designing car systems that cant be touched compared to spending time on home made SQ. (obviously for money reasons) everyone is trading off beliefs,values, and moral for $$ nowadays

most kids i know in my area wouldnt know what to do with a drill and some wood if their life depended on it.

thats what i think


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## s10scooter (Feb 5, 2007)

The oldest HU I have ever seen/used was when I was 16 (7 years ago) and looking at cars, this guy had a CD player where the whole damn thing slid in and out.

At first I thought it was rigged, but he showed me how it is supposed to be like that. Would be pretty nice for theft deturrance.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Flipx99 said:


> The oldest HU I have ever seen/used was when I was 16 (7 years ago) and looking at cars, this guy had a CD player where the whole damn thing slid in and out.
> 
> At first I thought it was rigged, but he showed me how it is supposed to be like that. Would be pretty nice for theft deturrance.


Welcome back to the late 80s/early 90s where a whole lot of HUs did that.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

6spdcoupe said:


> Welcome back to the late 80s/early 90s where a whole lot of HUs did that.


No kidding, I had one :blush: 

Kenwood made a shaft style unit that controlled a CD changer! That was slicker than a skeeter's peeter! Wish they still made it for doing old cars where you don't want to cut!

Chad


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## Puffhead (Aug 29, 2007)

LOL I had one too. Walking around carrying the thing like an idiot.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Puffhead said:


> LOL I had one too. Walking around carrying the thing like an idiot.


At the mall, wearing I.O.U ?


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## Puffhead (Aug 29, 2007)

At the beach. Black socks, sandals. Oh, and drinking an Orangina.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

chad said:


> At the mall, wearing I.O.U ?


Nah he's in NJ. He was prolly wearing Cavarichis and black Reeboks (Velcro Undone !) and pulled it out of his IROC.


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## Puffhead (Aug 29, 2007)

lol


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

I'm confused, so In Living Color killed car audio?


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

I don't feel like going back and reading all the pages, I posted early but don't know what happened in the middle so shoot me if this has already been mentioned.

I thought I should mention many of your same favorite car audio companies that might be hurting due to not selling aftermarket stuff think again. Companies like Alpine, Blaupunkt, pioneer, infinity, jbl, etc all are the ones making factory OEM units, so really are they losing ANY market?

Food for thought


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

durwood said:


> I'm confused, so In Living Color killed car audio?


Homie the Clown dont mess around !


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

durwood said:


> I don't feel like going back and reading all the pages, I posted early but don't know what happened in the middle so shoot me if this has already been mentioned.
> 
> I thought I should mention many of your same favorite car audio companies that might be hurting due to not selling aftermarket stuff think again. Companies like Alpine, Blaupunkt, pioneer, infinity, jbl, etc all are the ones making factory OEM units, so really are they losing ANY market?
> 
> Food for thought


Put that very small part of their productivity on scale with the overall company. Its too small of a spot to keep Everything afloat.


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## Sex Cells (Jul 21, 2007)

BassBaller5 said:


> wowwow!. the one about the headunits ammused me!


Theres more, he would always brag about his ***** little neon, or his old school viper. 

He would go out of his way to talk down to other members about their personal preferences.

He would brag and brag and brag about the _very successful_ shops he has owned. Home audio, and otherwise. 

Blah blah blah. Probably one of the most annoying trolls ca.com has ever had... and this is ca.com we're talking about. It takes a lot to make yourself loathed over there.


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## mfenske (Feb 7, 2006)

6spdcoupe said:


> Nah he's in NJ. He was prolly wearing Cavarichis and black Reeboks (Velcro Undone !) and pulled it out of his IROC.


LOL!!!! IROC- Italian Retard Out Cruising.


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## Vestax (Aug 16, 2005)

6spdcoupe said:


> Nah he's in NJ. He was prolly wearing Cavarichis and black Reeboks (Velcro Undone !) and pulled it out of his IROC.



Freakin' Don, you must be old. I remember some homeboys in middle school wearing those. The following year, the next fad was Cross Colors. That was 20 years ago!

And yes, I did own a pull out radio, which got jacked on the very last day of my high school senior year. :blush:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

Vestax said:


> And yes, I did own a pull out radio, which got jacked on the very last day of my high school senior year. :blush:


Out of your damn locker..... nerd  



6spdcoupe said:


> Put that very small part of their productivity on scale with the overall company. Its too small of a spot to keep Everything afloat.


Oh Noes! Harman was getting ready to be bought, which recently fell thru. It was a big buzz on my end, the BIG comment was that harman makes nearly ALL of their money on the OEM market..... Period.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

chad said:


> Out of your damn locker..... nerd
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Noes! Harman was getting ready to be bought, which recently fell thru. It was a big buzz on my end, the BIG comment was that harman makes nearly ALL of their money on the OEM market..... Period.


Which is part of the reason the deal fell through. Domestics automakers have bad times, that messes with Harman.

Juan


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## Vestax (Aug 16, 2005)

chad said:


> Out of your damn locker..... nerd


LOL, I was pimpin' a yellow 1981 Honda Accord, with different colored dark brown hood. Nerd I is. :blush:


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

OldOneEye said:


> Which is part of the reason the deal fell through. Domestics automakers have bad times, that messes with Harman.
> 
> Juan


Ummmmm, Toyota is a big Harman buyer, they are doing well. Just because Chrysler is not selling as many Infinity rigs does not mean that overseas clients aren't still in full force. we are still buying cars, just not as many american ones.

For those interested here are the merger notes:
http://www.kkr.com/news/press_releases/2007/10-22-07.html


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Sex Cells said:


> Theres more, he would always brag about his ***** little neon, or his old school viper.
> 
> He would go out of his way to talk down to other members about their personal preferences.
> 
> ...


The Viper that was shown in only one pic EVER?

Of course, because his word is gold.

But yet he Never mentioned names or exact locations. Yes, he was asked numerous times too.

Eh he did have some fan boys when he showed pics of a job ' he did' - fully designed,layed out,framed,glassed,painted Oh and yes this was in ONE DAY.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

mfenske said:


> LOL!!!! IROC- Italian Retard Out Cruising.


Hey ! I was one of those Italians !


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Vestax said:


> Freakin' Don, you must be old. I remember some homeboys in middle school wearing those. The following year, the next fad was Cross Colors. That was 20 years ago!
> 
> And yes, I did own a pull out radio, which got jacked on the very last day of my high school senior year. :blush:


Whatch it with the old jokes ****er !  

Yes I went through most of those phases as well. Even back to the shell toe Adidas,Suede Pumas, Two tone LEEs, etc ...


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

chad said:


> Out of your damn locker..... nerd
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Noes! Harman was getting ready to be bought, which recently fell thru. It was a big buzz on my end, the BIG comment was that harman makes nearly ALL of their money on the OEM market..... Period.


It didnt go through? Ugh I need to pay attention more. Anywho .. I was directing that more towards Alpine and the likes.


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## tyroneshoes (Mar 21, 2006)

6spdcoupe said:


> Nah he's in NJ. He was prolly wearing Cavarichis and black Reeboks (Velcro Undone !) and pulled it out of his IROC.


Chess King style for the masses.

Lines in the hair

running man was strong


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

6spdcoupe said:


> It didnt go through? Ugh I need to pay attention more. Anywho .. I was directing that more towards Alpine and the likes.



I followed it a little because it would be the second buyout in 6 months. EVI/Telex got bought by Bosch. Although not a player on a consumer level they are a big pro hitter with Midas, Klark Teknik, EV, Telex, among a few others. 

Bosch wanted telex because of their industrial/commercial communication apps.


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## bassfromspace (Jun 28, 2016)

6spdcoupe said:


> Two tone LEEs, etc ...


My scrotum ache at the thought of those Lee Jeans.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

tyroneshoes said:


> Chess King style for the masses.
> 
> Lines in the hair
> 
> running man was strong



Absolutely and hanging out at the mall was a good thing ! Menlo/Woodbridge and seldomly Bridgewater for me.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

bassfromspace said:


> My scrotum ache at the thought of those Lee Jeans.


Don't hate, they were rad dude.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

chad said:


> I followed it a little because it would be the second buyout in 6 months. EVI/Telex got bought by Bosch. Although not a player on a consumer level they are a big pro hitter with Midas, Klark Teknik, EV, Telex, among a few others.
> 
> Bosch wanted telex because of their industrial/commercial communication apps.


Bosch wants alot and usually gets it. I follow as much as I can, but lot of times the 'newspapers' get covered in dust before I can touch em.


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## chad (Jun 30, 2005)

6spdcoupe said:


> Bosch wants alot and usually gets it. I follow as much as I can, but lot of times the 'newspapers' get covered in dust before I can touch em.


If it weren't for trade rags in the pooper room I'd be in the dark :blush:


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

chad said:


> If it weren't for trade rags in the pooper room I'd be in the dark :blush:


Thats where the best kept secrets are and the best place to discover and discuss em.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Oh and BTW ..

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?p=255170#post255170


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## Bluto Blutarsky (Apr 1, 2007)

mfenske said:


> LOL!!!! IROC- Italian Retard Out Cruising.


 Say what you want, you're just jealous.My first new car, red 82 trans am, same as kit but different color. Second new car, 86 IROC bright blue metallic. Serious ***** wagons. Well, that and some cheap wine.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Bluto Blutarsky said:


> Say what you want, you're just jealous.My first new car, red 82 trans am, same as kit but different color. Second new car, 86 IROC bright blue metallic. Serious ***** wagons. Well, that and some cheap wine.


Blah, you had a 'fake' IROC though.  Z28 badges and a single line through the spokes of the wheels, tell tale ! Although in '86 there was no 'real' ones.


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## Puffhead (Aug 29, 2007)

tyroneshoes said:


> Chess King style for the masses.
> 
> Lines in the hair
> 
> running man was strong


LOL Chess King. WOW that brings back memories. Lower level, Woodbridge Mall across from Kay-bee hobby. Damn I'm old


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## Bluto Blutarsky (Apr 1, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> Blah, you had a 'fake' IROC though.  Z28 badges and a single line through the spokes of the wheels, tell tale ! Although in '86 there was no 'real' ones.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Bluto Blutarsky said:


>


Did I confuse you?


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## Bluto Blutarsky (Apr 1, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> Did I confuse you?


completely.


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## 6spdcoupe (Jan 12, 2006)

Bluto Blutarsky said:


> completely.



'86 was a 305 IROC badged Z28. '87 IIRC through '90 was the 'real' IROC 350TPI/L98.


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## Miska (Jul 25, 2007)

I remember seeing you guy's. I was the guy that parked in the upper parking lot. I drove that red 86 scirocco with the 15 inch Enkei's, still wearing my Generra hyper color shirts from junior high.


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## OldOneEye (Jun 16, 2005)

chad said:


> Ummmmm, Toyota is a big Harman buyer, they are doing well. Just because Chrysler is not selling as many Infinity rigs does not mean that overseas clients aren't still in full force. we are still buying cars, just not as many american ones.
> 
> For those interested here are the merger notes:
> http://www.kkr.com/news/press_releases/2007/10-22-07.html


Those are notes on the breakup (or the consolation prize). There is more to the story I think than we will know.

Based on how much their market cap dropped since they decided not to follow through, this seems like not much of a consolation prize.

Juan


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## durwood (Mar 7, 2007)

6spdcoupe said:


> Bosch wants alot and usually gets it. I follow as much as I can, but lot of times the 'newspapers' get covered in dust before I can touch em.


Yes we do. Don't feel so bad, I found out from Chad.  Of course all I hear about are the ones we buy for automotive use. At some point Bosch will own all. Germans will get their world domination finally!


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## Hi There (Mar 16, 2007)

chad said:


> Kenwood made a shaft style unit



_ Shaft!

Who's the black private dick
That's a sex machine to all the chicks?
(Shaft!)
You're damn right

Who is the man
That would risk his neck for his brother man?
(Shaft!)
Can ya dig it?

Who's the cat that won't cop out
When there's danger all about
(Shaft!)
Right on

You see this cat Shaft is a bad mother--
(Shut your mouth)
But I'm talkin' about Shaft
(Then we can dig it)

He's a complicated man
But no one understands him but his woman
(John Shaft)_




sorry....just felt compelled.


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## sonic purity (Nov 20, 2007)

I think that car audio isnt on a decline. Its actually a booming industry, just one that is moving in a different direction. The downside to whats been going on is the individual dealer is being squeezed out by the explosion of internet selling. And alot of manufacturers are starting to support the internet by offering warranties for product bought on the internet. Its not just the internet, but places like best buy, circuit city and such that not only offer discount prices but offer installation that cuts into the local sound shops bread and butter. Forcing them to overcharge for there product and installation just to pay the bills and pay the installers a decent wage. The biggest problem with all this, is the influx of inferior product (mostly by good companies that have sold out to the chain stores) and the thinning out of small sound shops. Luckily we still have companies that care about quality (like zapco) and support there dealers by not warranting internet sold item and not even offering any kind of support for amps without a serial number. All of this will end up broadening the gap between high end car audio and low end car audio.


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