# Look Ma....no tweeters



## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

*Look Ma....no tweeters (H-Audio review)*

OK, as promised, here is my review of H-Audio XR3M and the PP6.5's.

*Intro/Qualifications*

I jumped into the car audio scene in about 1986 buying my first amps (Coustics), a top shelf Kenwood Cassette deck, and some JVC 3 way 6X9's, and some no name 8's that fit behind the seat of my Isuzu P'up. Things were just getting rolling back then and very soon I was going to IASCA sound events and started learning what made great sounding cars and what made loud sounding cars. I soon had upgraded into a punch 75, a punch 150, some MB Quarts components , and some RF Power 10's to anchor everything. I had one of the first AudioControl EQ's in my city and the truck sounded great. Fast forward 30 some years and I am still all about a great sounding truck. 

I have been rocking a 3 way setup using all Seas Lotus drivers for the last few years, in fact, I am on my second generation of Lotus drivers as I have found their sound very soothing to my ears. The Magnesium in the cones adds just enough warmth to make the upper end spike worth dealing with. Well to make a long story short, I heard the Genesis point source drivers in Tulsa a couple years ago and thought wow, I like this. Then, a buddy of mine recently setup a car with a set of Jordon's and I was taken aback at how well those little suckers sounded and just how much sound they produced. Though they got a little thin on the very top-end, over all the sound was well balanced and again, I thought, I like this. I see a post about H-Audio's drivers pre-sale and a couple phone calls, some wheeling and dealing (Mark is a hell of a guy), and lo and behold, I got some drivers to play with. On to the pics:

Open up the boxes and see these poking out at me



Out of the boxes





Some pretty Butt shots

First Mighty Mite



The Mid



A close up of the terminals and a better view of the cast basket on Mighty Mite



OK....well they look good by themselves, how do they stack up against the drivers they are replacing?

Mid Bass units

From the front they look pretty similar


From the backside they are pretty comparable as well. Both have nice cast baskets, the magnet structure is about the same size and the drivers are pretty close in weight...the edge going to the Seas.




The mids are a different story all together though. Check out this sexy butt



From the front





So the Seas is the definite winner here with the size of the magnet, the size of the voice coil, and the size of the cone...right? Well kinda like comparing apples to oranges. The Seas is a dedicated mid that I wouldn't run much past 5k without worry of the ringing that these drivers can produce with that wicked top end spike, the Mighty Mite on the other hand has a smaller relative magnet structure, smaller cone area, but is made for full range signals and we are gonna try them without tweeters.


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## unemployedconsumer (Sep 24, 2010)

definitely subscribed. this is the stuff on here i look forward to.


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

Damn picture limit

After playing around with the Mighty Mites in towels, I decided to go for the ultimate torture test and mount them in the kicks cross-firing using the current mid location with a mounting ring.


Before:




Connecting up the Mighty Mites





I didn't take any pics of the doors as I just pulled out the Seas and dropped in the H-Audios. 

So the basic layout is Mighty Mites in the kicks, Poly's in the doors, each driver fed with a bridged channel from a pair of Zuki Eleets that I use for the top end, and the bottom end is a TC Sounds Axis 15 fed from a Zuki Mono. The processing is handled by a Bit1 and for initial impressions and testing only crossover points and time alignment were set and the EQ was set flat. I arbitrarily chose 70 to 300 for the poly's and 300 and up for the Mighty Mites. What I WAS running was the Seas 6.5's in the doors (70-350), the 4's in the kicks (350-4K), and the tweeters in pods on the dash (4k and up).

The first thing I wanted to hear was something top-end heavy that would let me hear if there were limitations to the top end I heard in the Jordons. Out comes Pink Floyd DSOTM and track 4. The alarm clocks and synthesizer were spot on with no decay up top. In fact, the rising top end that shows up on the graphs for these is here and very beneficial. The impact from the mids was strong and very realistic and matched up well the Mighty Mites. Next I gave some female vocals a run through......Madonna, Karen Carpenter, Tracy Chapman....I tried out a few different vocal ranges here. No loss in the top octives, voices very realistic and staged wonderfully. Ok, lets try Money for Nothing. Have you ever heard a breathy edge to Mark Knophlers voice in this recording? Me either, but I will be damned if I couldn't hear every breath he took on top of the everything else going on in that recording. Well OK, they sound good there, how about some real rock. Damageplan, White Zombie, Rage against the Machine all got a little play time. All I can say is wow....these little Mighty Mites just blew my mind. The Poly's handled the kicks without any complaints or any added mechanical noises at any volume I pushed them to and added a sense of impact that I found very realistic and enjoyable at the same time.

So I go to break out the laptop to start RTA'ing and dialing these things in to my truck when the sound driver in my laptop decided to go rogue and corrupt itself and that ended all measurements until I get my laptop reloaded 

So now without measurements to back me up, this becomes purely subjective..........but I am here to say that I am sold on the whole point source driver concept. My stage grew 4 feet in each direction as far as width goes. Depth jumped from my windshield wipers out to the middle of my hood. Part of that change was the tweeters on the dash limited my stage and set boundaries that the Mighty Mites just totally ignored. Sound quality wise, they held there own against the Lotus even surpassing them in low-end impact and matching them on the top end with out any problems. Even so far off axis, these things filled my truck with a amazing amount of music that was spot on as far as stage, depth, and presentation. I am probably going to try out the Kevlar mid basses to see how they compare with the poly's, however with such a limited bandwidth, I don't foresee a lot of difference.

Mark is a wonderful guy to deal with, full of info and energy, and he seems willing to jump in and help out anywhere he can. Great customer service.....check. Build quality is excellent, though not the absolute best I have ever seen. The terminals could use some beefing up, the felts around the faces of the Mighty Mites was far from perfectly centered, but these are nit picky things. The cast frames and magnet structures are heavy duty though not outrageously so, the cones are made of top notch materials, and in all, if I was Mark, I would not be ashamed to put my name on them for sure. 

After a solid week of enjoying these guys, I have to admit that they have found a permanent home in my truck. The sound levels these guys are capable of, the stage they throw, the ease of tuning a 2 way setup, all add up to a real winner. Job well done Mark.


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

One more thing to add.......my drivers look a little different from the final version as I got the prototypes. The cone recipe is a tad different, the phase plugs are rosewood on the final production run, but the differences aren't enough to say that the XR3.5M's won't give you the same impression as these bad boys.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

finebar4 said:


> One more thing to add.......my drivers look a little different from the final version as I got the prototypes. The cone recipe is a tad different, the phase plugs are rosewood on the final production run, but the differences aren't enough to say that the XR3.5M's won't give you the same impression as these bad boys.


First I would have to say thanks for posting your honest opinion on every aspect of the drivers performance and build quality. 

Yes finebar4 has the prototype which was know as the Audible Physics BeM3 Super wide-band transducer, which became the might Audible Physics XR3M. After some more testing and playing around with some more phase plug designs. My designer/builder was able to come up with a phase plug design to gave us the same performance, but in a short more usable package. Out came a amazing Black Rosewood unit. 

Next with a little cone tweak and the addition of Rosewood phase plug we were able to sweeten the mid-range up just a bit. All i can say is the XR3M is one amazing little monster, as is the prototype seen here once known as the BeM3. It became the Audible Physics XR3M so it can be add to the XR Series to me match with the Audible Physics XR6.5M 6.5" Ultra wide-band Transducer to From the amazing Audible Physics XR Duo High Resolution 2 way arrangement. This move was done so the Amazing and now on Special Audible Physics AR Duo could be introduced.

Just to give you a visual of what finebar4 is speaking of about the raising top end response. I said I wouldn't post this, as we know how thing get on the net sometimes, but if you know me I don't hide anything nor do I have any thing to hide, so here is a real world in car RTA measurement of the XR3M response. This is with no eqing what so ever. The response on the top is smooth and detailed










The Audible Physics PP6.5 finebar4 is use is a Replica of the XR6.5M and the AR6K, every aspect of the drivers are the same, just cones are different. PP is Polypropylene, M is Magnesium Alloy, K is Kevlar. The PP6.5 is a outstanding performer however you choose to use it, use it in a 2 way with a nice tweeter or as a pure mid-bass. When used a pure mid-bass; as finebar4 stated it is fast and accurate and produces a sweet amount of impact. As sweet as the PP6.5 is the AR6K of the AR Duo improves on what it does. 

Once more thanks finebar4 for your kind words and honest impression and taken the chance on a new product. I'm just as excited about the new Audible Physics drivers as you and other who have them are. The new H-Audio line will bring even more great performers to the table and I have a something special coming in the XR Series.


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## Electrodynamic (Nov 27, 2007)

Yet another great detailed review by you finebar! 

And if Mark's RTA is on-axis it would explain why the top end is so smooth to finebar since his are considerably off-axis. That, and the the response appears to rise above 8k (8k Hz is very fatiguing to the human ear), which is a good thing. Nice job Mark.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Electrodynamic said:


> Yet another great detailed review by you finebar!
> 
> And if Mark's RTA is on-axis it would explain why the top end is so smooth to finebar since his are considerably off-axis. That, and the the response appears to rise above 8k (8k Hz is very fatiguing to the human ear), which is a good thing. Nice job Mark.


Thanks for the kind words. Nice job goes out to you sir on the remarkable BM MKIII subwoofer. Love them.

Yes it is on-axis, but even surprising to me even on-axis the sound is quite smooth and never fatiguing, but some may want to cut it at about 16khz. I like to call what that raising response does Phantom off-axis response.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Nice review as per usual Finebar. I have also really fallen in love with the H-Audio/Zuki combination as I run the same in my car. They are truly a very nice match together. And I can't say enough good things about the H-Audio drivers or about the amazing level of customer service that Mark provides. Enjoy the system!

Zach


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

Thank you guys.

I am truly in love with these things. It amazes me that these guys have so much output that is so clean and transparent. I loved my 3-way, but it took a lot of work to get dialed in whereas these guys are going to be pretty easy to get great results. The rising top-end was the last thing I saw in my TrueRTA before my sound driver went corrupt, but seeing it, I knew these had great potential for the kicks where I can completely hide them away. The improvement to my stage was immediately noticeable just roughing in the delays. Very glad I stumbled across another winner


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

finebar4 said:


> Thank you guys.
> 
> I am truly in love with these things. It amazes me that these guys have so much output that is so clean and transparent. I loved my 3-way, but it took a lot of work to get dialed in whereas these guys are going to be pretty easy to get great results. The rising top-end was the last thing I saw in my TrueRTA before my sound driver went corrupt, but seeing it, I knew these had great potential for the kicks where I can completely hide them away. The improvement to my stage was immediately noticeable just roughing in the delays. Very glad I stumbled across another winner


I also can not wait to get my XR3M and XR6.5M installed.....


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

DAT said:


> I also can not wait to get my XR3M and XR6.5M installed.....


XR Duo to you sir.:laugh:


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

I would like to clarify 1 thing I just noticed when looking at the drivers in the current group-buy..........if you look at the 5th picture down on my review you will see how the terminals are screwed to the frame and that screw comes loose pretty easy......if you look at the Kevlar drivers you will see the terminals are solder in place. That is was my one minor complaint with mine and it was already fixed in the final production units.....so no worries on the build quality guys, I keep referring to them as the "mighty mites" for a reason.


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## mSaLL150 (Aug 14, 2008)

Nice review. I'd like to hear these guys someday, they are getting excellent feedback. How do they compare to your previous system in terms of overall output? It looks as if the Seas woofer and 4.5" driver should out-displace the smaller H drivers.


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

mSaLL150 said:


> Nice review. I'd like to hear these guys someday, they are getting excellent feedback. How do they compare to your previous system in terms of overall output? It looks as if the Seas woofer and 4.5" driver should out-displace the smaller H drivers.


One would think that right off the bat, but then you have to take sensitivities into consideration and realize I am gaining about 3dB on both sets of new drivers. They get pretty freakin' loud. Now I would admit that overall the Seas would probably be able to take more power due to motor and voice coil size. There is no replacement for displacement either. But with the power I am limited to, they stack up pretty darn close.


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## 30something (Jan 9, 2009)

Really surprised to hear such a positive review with the drivers mounted off axis like that. Ears don't lie, though. Have you any plans to try aiming the drivers, or are you satisfied as they are?

Also wondering if anyone have heard the kevlar pair or have any input as to how they'd stack up against these? I've been trying to talk myself out of buying a set, but reviews like this sure don't help. :laugh:


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

30something said:


> Really surprised to hear such a positive review with the drivers mounted off axis like that. Ears don't lie, though. Have you any plans to try aiming the drivers, or are you satisfied as they are?
> 
> Also wondering if anyone have heard the kevlar pair or have any input as to how they'd stack up against these? I've been trying to talk myself out of buying a set, but reviews like this sure don't help. :laugh:


I played around for a day and half with different locations. On axis up on the dash was great, but it kept the stage narrower in my truck, the boundaries were the side pillars and the windshield wipers. Down in the kicks on-axis will get an extended trial as I liked them firing from there as well. The off-axis response is very workable and the stage extends beyond the vehicle boundaries making their current location very tempting as well because I can then keep them totally stealth. I spend a lot of nights in hotels and stealth is real good in my book. I was expecting to have to do a lot of eq'ing to make them work from where they are, but they respond and work very well from there just with a little time alignment.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

30something said:


> Really surprised to hear such a positive review with the drivers mounted off axis like that. Ears don't lie, though. Have you any plans to try aiming the drivers, or are you satisfied as they are?
> 
> Also wondering if anyone have heard the kevlar pair or have any input as to how they'd stack up against these? I've been trying to talk myself out of buying a set, but reviews like this sure don't help. :laugh:


Just to touch on the drivers as Finebar4 said he has the prototype units, as he said I made a fewer changes to the final production units, one being the Terminals. 

Now to answer you question sir.

The Kevlar drivers are every bit as outstanding as the XR Duo. In some respects better as is the XR Duo in some respects better then the AR Duo. They are built on the same motor and basket and technology. The only change was the Cones. The Kevlar cones are little more dense and therefore give the AR Duo the edge in the lower octaves. 

Think about this way the AR3K as an FS of 70hz @ true 3db down not the over state 6-10db rating some others use and 5mm of one-way xmax, this is way it is called a 3" Ultra wide-band woofer. Would I use it that low, never. But with the ability to play that low 300hz is a cake walk in the park for it. The top-end extension is just as extended. The AR6k as a true 3db down rating of 56hz. 

With the Kevlar cone the sounds are a bit different over the XR Duo, the XR Duo is a High Resolution set, with right about of warmth, midrange sweet smooth. The Kevlar are quite natural and neutral with very good detail and great dynamics. Both sets are transparent and relieving, but no so much that that are fatiguing in way.

I truly feel these are 2 of the highest performance 3"/6.5" sets on the market at any price range, well the AR Duo is not on the market yet, being the title of the promo pre-release sell. So the ones sold will be the very first sets to the US market. So if you get in on the deal you will the the luck ones as the promo price will never be offered again.

So happy listening to everyone and remember on matter what products you use;

"It's All About What Sounds Right"​


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## show&go (Sep 25, 2010)

> I've been trying to talk myself out of buying a set, but reviews like this sure don't help.


This review is what pushed me over the edge to go ahead and get a set.


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## unemployedconsumer (Sep 24, 2010)

i was wondering if you could give us a little info on the way you have the speakers mounted in your kicks. I'm kinda amateur at this but to me it looks like you have some sort of baffle bolted to the kick panel area and your speakers mounted right in them. Is there open space behind them or how exactly did you do this? Thanks for the review.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

unemployedconsumer said:


> i was wondering if you could give us a little info on the way you have the speakers mounted in your kicks. I'm kinda amateur at this but to me it looks like you have some sort of baffle bolted to the kick panel area and your speakers mounted right in them. Is there open space behind them or how exactly did you do this? Thanks for the review.


In most cars/trucks/SUVs there is a void/space behind the kick-panel plastic where wires pass into. This void usually vents into the frame or to outside at some point. Basically giving you an IB configuration. So yes you more then likely can just bolt in a baffle, sound dampen the area then mount your drivers in the location. Doing an angle gets a little hard, but not very much. I've found doing a nice grille is the hardest part.

Finebar4 can go into more detail on his install.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

mSaLL150 said:


> Nice review. I'd like to hear these guys someday, they are getting excellent feedback. How do they compare to your previous system in terms of overall output? It looks as if the Seas woofer and 4.5" driver should out-displace the smaller H drivers.


That can be arranged Marc.  I'll have a few different sets of H-Audio/Audible Physics drivers at my place soon. So once they get here I'll let you know and you can swing by to check them out.


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

unemployedconsumer said:


> i was wondering if you could give us a little info on the way you have the speakers mounted in your kicks. I'm kinda amateur at this but to me it looks like you have some sort of baffle bolted to the kick panel area and your speakers mounted right in them. Is there open space behind them or how exactly did you do this? Thanks for the review.





H-Audio Inc. said:


> In most cars/trucks/SUVs there is a void/space behind the kick-panel plastic where wires pass into. This void usually vents into the frame or to outside at some point. Basically giving you an IB configuration. So yes you more then likely can just bolt in a baffle, sound dampen the area then mount your drivers in the location. Doing an angle gets a little hard, but not very much. I've found doing a nice grille is the hardest part.
> 
> Finebar4 can go into more detail on his install.


There are a couple of reasons for that location. I sat in an award winning car a few years back that had tweeters mounted in the kicks like that crossfiring and the sound that enveloped you was amazing. They were Scan ring radiators that had great off axis response and I was sold. Never would have believed it, except my ears told me different. Fast forward to building my truck. The 6.5's fit the doors just fine, but going three-way, I needed a location for the 4's that would be hidden, close to the midbasses, and vented to the outside world. After spending a couple days relocating the factory wiring harnesses on both sides, I had a nice clear surface to mount the baffle boards seen was able to modify the factory plastic panels so that you never knew the 4's were there unless I told you. With the 4's vented like that, I could play them down to about 80Hz without any ill effects.....though i never really did. When i got my new drivers, the 6's dropped right in the door, but I played around with the mighty mites a couple days to determine where they would fit in best. I had to make a 5 hour drive and didn't want the mighty mites just rolling around loose, so I whipped up the adapter rings and dropped them in. A little time alignment and voila.....I am pretty sold with them where they are. I may figure out a way to angle them, going to have to redo the factory plastic panels again anyways, so there will be more experimentation to come as time allows, but the off axis response helps me procrastinate and find other projects to work on.


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## brocken (Apr 26, 2010)

With the 'tweeters' mounted down that low did you notice any problems with obstructions?
I could do a similar mount in my car but I'm concerned I'd lose sound/detail since my big feet and fat legs block the direct path.


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## DAT (Oct 8, 2006)

brocken said:


> With the 'tweeters' mounted down that low did you notice any problems with obstructions?
> I could do a similar mount in my car but I'm concerned I'd lose sound/detail since my big feet and fat legs block the direct path.


No tweeters in the install those are 3" Wide Band's..... they play from roughly 250 - 16K or so....


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

DAT said:


> No tweeters in the install those are 3" Wide Band's..... they play from roughly 250 - 16K or so....


I think he was asking about the install that Finebar4 was talking about he listen to with the tweeters mount low. Not Finebar4's truck.

250hz-20khz and above sir


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## mSaLL150 (Aug 14, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> That can be arranged Marc.  I'll have a few different sets of H-Audio/Audible Physics drivers at my place soon. So once they get here I'll let you know and you can swing by to check them out.


Yes, that would be awesome please let me know. I am primarily interested in checking out the 3" offerings.


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## brocken (Apr 26, 2010)

I meant both, that's why I did the ' ' around 'tweeters'. I was trying to say the higher frequencies the 3" play as well as when a tweeter is that low.
I know sound blocking of the lower frequencies isn't as big of a deal. Just wondered if that's noticeable on the high end.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

mSaLL150 said:


> Yes, that would be awesome please let me know. I am primarily interested in checking out the 3" offerings.


I'll have 2-3 different models of 3" driver for you to check out. I'll let you know as soon as everything is here. Don't forget the show at Audio Xperts in Vacaville on Dec 11th!


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## captainobvious (Mar 11, 2006)

Glad to hear you're enjoying the new drivers. Ditto on Mark. A gentleman and a true pleasure to deal with. We need more guys like that in the industry.


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## Nass027 (Oct 25, 2006)

Great Review Kevin,heading over there to take a look at these speakers now. Still rockin' that Denon??I finally got mine in with their Zuki brethren.You weren't lyin' Brother.Cheers with a chilled Goose!


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

brocken said:


> With the 'tweeters' mounted down that low did you notice any problems with obstructions?
> I could do a similar mount in my car but I'm concerned I'd lose sound/detail since my big feet and fat legs block the direct path.


I haven't noticed any. My feet rest naturally about a foot away from that location and doesn't seem to obstruct any output. As for the detail...well i am hearing things in recordings that the Seas didn't bring out. I first turned my nose up at the whole idea....down that low....off axis......no way! These guys look like dash pod mounted dreams. Sometimes the ideas that look the best on paper fall way short and sometimes things that just don't seem to make any logical sense work. In my truck, these drivers are performing above my expectations in the kicks like that. Maybe the curve of the dash is acting like a giant wave guide focusing the music in slightly upward radiant pattern....hell i don't know, all i can say is don't take any location out of the picture with these guys, they may really surprise you.


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

Nass027 said:


> Great Review Kevin,heading over there to take a look at these speakers now. Still rockin' that Denon??I finally got mine in with their Zuki brethren.You weren't lyin' Brother.Cheers with a chilled Goose!


Switched to a double DIN with an optical out straight to the Bit1. It'll do 

And cheers right back to ya...been a long week, I think a good bourbon is calling my name


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

I know it's more "application specific," but any weird peaks or nulls in the response in your truck? The rising response at the high end is pretty interesting...wondering how that correlates to the midrange frequencies...

My (hopeful) next ride will have factory kicks which would otherwise need to be cut for 6.5s...but squeeze a 6.5 under each front seat and a pair of these 3ers in the kicks, off axis...hmmmm


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

ryan s said:


> I know it's more "application specific," but any weird peaks or nulls in the response in your truck? The rising response at the high end is pretty interesting...wondering how that correlates to the midrange frequencies...
> 
> My (hopeful) next ride will have factory kicks which would otherwise need to be cut for 6.5s...but squeeze a 6.5 under each front seat and a pair of these 3ers in the kicks, off axis...hmmmm


Big rise right about 300 and a big suckout between 800-1000 hz. Doesn't matter what drivers I put where, these 2 always show up. The mids are crystal compared with the highs, the rising response just helps it stay balanced up to ear level..... you get very detailed, articulate sound with a very detailed articulate recording......it seems to reproduce details that normally appeared masked or blurred as I have heard on other setups. But.... that can kinda be a curse, ****ty recordings really glare at you in a very uncomfortable manner. They very faithfully reproduce what is or isn't there. I guess I would call them high resolution. I will try and get some measurements up as soon as I figure out how to get my sound driver back.


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## ryan s (Dec 19, 2006)

Ugh, bad recordings  Nothing worse than a cool new song or CD being unlistenable in the car...

Looking forward to the measurements. Sounds very workable so far. With an EQ that only goes to 12.5kHz, I need to plan the upper response in driver selection and placement...rising response, down low, off axis...appealing


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

Been a little busy around here......



My new Grandson, should be coming home today. He was Born Thursday at 6:10AM, 7lbs 6 oz, 20 inches long, and most importantly....healthy and hungry as seen above.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Congrats once again on the new addition to the family.


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## brocken (Apr 26, 2010)

Congratulations gramps!


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## Nass027 (Oct 25, 2006)

DING DING-Diaper change please Grampa! Congrats again.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks Kevin for the great review, and thanks Zach for pointing me to this thread. After reading this and talking with Mark - I was sold. Looking forward to getting them installed. 

I'm planning on mounting them at the base of the A-pillar and experimenting with the angle. I have those same Seas Mid Bass drivers, so it will be interesting to hear the difference between the Morel / Seas 2-way and the XR3M / Seas 2-way - we will see if the Morels get to play along as well.....

Zach and Marc - looking forward to hearing your impression of the drivers when you get to hear them as well.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

bertholomey said:


> Thanks Kevin for the great review, and thanks Zach for pointing me to this thread. After reading this and talking with Mark - I was sold. Looking forward to getting them installed.
> 
> I'm planning on mounting them at the base of the A-pillar and experimenting with the angle. I have those same Seas Mid Bass drivers, so it will be interesting to hear the difference between the Morel / Seas 2-way and the XR3M / Seas 2-way - we will see if the Morels get to play along as well.....
> 
> Zach and Marc - looking forward to hearing your impression of the drivers when you get to hear them as well.


Glad that worked out for you J. I really think that you'll be able to retire the Morel tweets to home speaker duty though. You'll be able to get the joys of a 3 way front with the simplicity of a 2 way. I'll make it a point to get up to Greensboro to hear your car next time I'm anywhere remotely near NC. I'll call you back this weekend brother.

Zach


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

Boostedrex said:


> Glad that worked out for you J. I really think that you'll be able to retire the Morel tweets to home speaker duty though. You'll be able to get the joys of a 3 way front with the simplicity of a 2 way. I'll make it a point to get up to Greensboro to hear your car next time I'm anywhere remotely near NC. I'll call you back this weekend brother.
> 
> Zach


Thanks Zach - I would really enjoy a visit - I'll let you know when they are installed / tuned.


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

bertholomey said:


> Thanks Kevin for the great review, and thanks Zach for pointing me to this thread. After reading this and talking with Mark - I was sold. Looking forward to getting them installed.
> 
> I'm planning on mounting them at the base of the A-pillar and experimenting with the angle. I have those same Seas Mid Bass drivers, so it will be interesting to hear the difference between the Morel / Seas 2-way and the XR3M / Seas 2-way - we will see if the Morels get to play along as well.....
> 
> Zach and Marc - looking forward to hearing your impression of the drivers when you get to hear them as well.


You made a great choice. Once you start dealing with Mark and see whats in the pipeline.......you may drop the Seas in a few months


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## NSTar (Feb 24, 2010)

I'm still thinking you should remove the highs from these and let the tweets do it's magic. I can't seem to grasp the fact that a tweet is no longer needed. Just throw a two way passive or active on these and separate the highs. Get a dedicated tweets that will play excellent in the highs only (no need for a do it all tweets).


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

NSTar said:


> I'm still thinking you should remove the highs from these and let the tweets do it's magic. I can't seem to grasp the fact that a tweet is no longer needed. Just throw a two way passive or active on these and separate the highs. Get a dedicated tweets that will play excellent in the highs only (no need for a do it all tweets).


But why do that when you can have a single point source driver from 250Hz on up to 20KHz? (Or at least up until you reach the audible limits of a normal person's ears) With this approach you have fewer channels of DSP, amplification, and time delay needed. The lack of an additional X-over is a BEAUTIFUL thing as lots of people experience X-over induced phase shift issues that aren't always that easy to sort out.

Once I get the set of XR3's in my car then we can meet up and you can listen for yourself. There are lots of things that I see and can't wrap my head around without seeing/hearing for myself in person.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Since this thread is back alive, I want to answer the question "why add tweeters?"

We (Xenia and I) are both planning an install with fullrangers ànd tweeters.
The reason why is because of beaming.
Beaming is pure science: how bigger the driver, how earlier it will start to beam.
Since we want to build our installs as "2-seaters", we want to keep the response from both sides, on both sides as identical as possible.

When you don't use tweeters for that, you have to figure out an angle to aim both fullrangers in a way that they both are just as much off-axis in both seats, which isn't easy with larger drivers in a car.
Since a much smaller tweeter only starts to beam at higher frequencies and is easier to angle correctly, we think this is the way to go for a 2-seater install.

Since you can put the crossover between tweeters and mids/fullrangers at the point where the fullrangers start to beam or not much higher, you can get away with a lot less effort to angle the fullrangers correctly, as long as you make sure nothing blocks the paths from the fullrangers to the listeners...

Since you don't have to think about the right angles when using tweeters, it is also easier to find good spots that maximize the pathlengths, reducing the need for L-R independent time-alignment, which is also a good thing in a 2-seater install.

Off course, how smaller the fullrangers are, how less the above story is noticeable in real life, so I'm pretty sure even a 2-seater install with 2.5" fullrangers won't need tweeters, but when you use larger fullrangers (we will use 4" titanium TB's), this is something you have to pay attention to...

Isabelle


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## brocken (Apr 26, 2010)

What Boosted said.

I have the XR6.5M playing full range and it sounds great. I wouldn't have thought I could run without tweeters much less using a 6.5" to play those frequencies.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

Isabelle, you make a very valid point. But I still think you'd be surprised at the outcome of in car testing with a wideband driver like these. Either way, the setup you're planning will undoubtedly sound amazing! I can't wait to see the install log pics of it.

Cheers,

Zach


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## XC-C30 (Jul 24, 2007)

We HOPE to be done by summer... I say hope, because we said this before:blush:


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Indeed, after renting a dump for a year, we are very happy about the house we bought, but unfortunately, we don't have a garage or carport to work on the car and we have to share the best piece of our land with our neighbour that needs it to get in and out of his garage, so we can't put a big temporary tent on it for a few weeks 

I think a 3" fullranger like this can work without a tweeter, even in a 2-seater car with little compromise, but the fullranger we will be using is a 4", so it will need either a lot of aiming and angling ór a tweeter... We prefer the last option 

Isabelle


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Isabelle, You would be surprised at the response you get off axis with the HAudio wide banders. I used them for most of last years competitions with only an 8" mid/sub and they were outstanding!! Smooth top end firing up into the windsheild of my C70. They did need a bit of help in the 16-20K area but nothing a little boost in the EQ couldnt handle. I am VERY EXCITED to see what the XR's and AR's will do compared to the Trinities.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

I'm not saying it can't work, I just say you need a bit of luck and more tuning, especially if you don't want to compromize the sound for both seats.

We are actually thinking about buying a classic car (probably a Saab 99 or 96) when the time and budget is ready and build a pure passive install in it with 3" fullrangers and no tweeters, but in our current cars, we prefer 4" fullrangers with tweeters to make the install easier since we have the processing power for it anyways (Clarion HX-D2 in Xenia's car, AudioControl EQT's and 4XS in my own project).

Isabelle


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Candisa said:


> I'm not saying it can't work, I just say you need a bit of luck and more tuning, *especially if you don't want to compromize the sound for both seats.*We are actually thinking about buying a classic car (probably a Saab 99 or 96) when the time and budget is ready and build a pure passive install in it with 3" fullrangers and no tweeters, but in our current cars, we prefer 4" fullrangers with tweeters to make the install easier since we have the processing power for it anyways (Clarion HX-D2 in Xenia's car, AudioControl EQT's and 4XS in my own project).
> 
> Isabelle


Mine is a one seat wonder....


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

I'm looking forward to our little meet on the 22nd. I put the xr's in little ugly pvc things so I can actually get them on the dash. I'll be able to get several people's oppinion about there sound then. I'll update my review thread after the event. I have just been enjoying SMV Thunder for the last hour - wonderful 'full range' response - great highs and surprising lows - can't wait to hear this album with the 6.5"'s and sub added!


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Is the back of the PVC open or sealed?


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Sorry guys I have been very busy and weather is just very bad of late here.

Isabelle you have very valid point just like Zach said, but the new gen of Audible Physics drivers are truly something special. And you are right about beaming, you can not beat Physics, but most will come to find out that a 3" is nearly the prefect size for a super wide-band. Now make it a beast like the XR3M and AR3K, with low end and output like a much larger driver.

To combat the beaming, you have the raising response at the top in. As in the very top end as you state it is more about amplitude then it is about placement or Time arrival. So have a true point source. The XR3M and AR3K are truly special units in the regards in the way they produce top end.

Now in come the Audible Physics XR6.5M an Ultra wide-band. This driver just amazes with what it can do as a point source even at nearly 90 degrees off axis. Now get this beast on axis and it will change the way most think about large wide-banders.


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## bertholomey (Dec 27, 2007)

chefhow said:


> Is the back of the PVC open or sealed?


That should be an easy question.....but alas, it isn't. The PVC thingy that I'm using is a straight 4" to 3" step down. I have MLV covering the 3" end with a layer of clay and a liberal amount of 'Duck Tape' of all things - ugly as sin. I'll throw a pic on my review thread....I don't think I have lost a lot of sound from the little funny looking pine boxes that I had - much larger enclosure.


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## bikerider (Dec 28, 2008)

This thread has piqued my interest, but the dilemma I have is that my deck (Pioneer DEH-P880PRS) would only let me go down to a 1.25K crossover point for these. While not ideal, would this high of a crossover frequency outweigh the benefits of using these drivers?

I hope to hear Jason's setup on the 22nd, so hopefully my tax return will get here soon thereafter


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

bikerider said:


> This thread has piqued my interest, but the dilemma I have is that my deck (Pioneer DEH-P880PRS) would only let me go down to a 1.25K crossover point for these. While not ideal, would this high of a crossover frequency outweigh the benefits of using these drivers?
> 
> I hope to hear Jason's setup on the 22nd, so hopefully my tax return will get here soon thereafter


Yes, the 1.25KHz X-over point would be a deal breaker IMHO. Out of curiosity, what kind of amps are you powering your system with? There may be another way to get the X-over point you need.


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## bikerider (Dec 28, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> Yes, the 1.25KHz X-over point would be a deal breaker IMHO. Out of curiosity, what kind of amps are you powering your system with? There may be another way to get the X-over point you need.


Hmm, I PM'ed Mark this morning and he said he is testing this exact setup and it is good.

They would be powered by 2 channels of a US Acoustics USB-4085 (85W) running active off of a DEH-P880PRS, the other two channels of that amp would drive the mids. Most likely they would be installed off-axis in the kicks similar to how the OP has them installed here.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

bikerider said:


> Hmm, I PM'ed Mark this morning and he said he is testing this exact setup and it is good.
> 
> They would be powered by 2 channels of a US Acoustics USB-4085 (85W) running active off of a DEH-P880PRS, the other two channels of that amp would drive the mids. Most likely they would be installed off-axis in the kicks similar to how the OP has them installed here.


It's not that it won't work. It's just that I wouldn't want to do it with the sheer ability of the XR3. Since it can play down lower with ease I wouldn't want to limit it. You know what I mean?


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## bikerider (Dec 28, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> It's not that it won't work. It's just that I wouldn't want to do it with the sheer ability of the XR3. Since it can play down lower with ease I wouldn't want to limit it. You know what I mean?


Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I'd still love to run them though without having to buy a new amp or headunit if possible, sounds like that's not in the cards (at least using optimum crossover points).


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Boostedrex said:


> It's not that it won't work. It's just that I wouldn't want to do it with the sheer ability of the XR3. Since it can play down lower with ease I wouldn't want to limit it. You know what I mean?


Zach speaks the truth. It does work fine crossed there, but it not an ideal place to cross any setup. That is right in the ol so sweet midrange spot.

I have tried them crossed at many points including acting as a true tweeter crossed at 2, 3. 4, 5, 6 and 7khz and a work great.


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## Boostedrex (Apr 4, 2007)

bikerider said:


> Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I'd still love to run them though without having to buy a new amp or headunit if possible, sounds like that's not in the cards (at least using optimum crossover points).


You may not have to. Can you run the "tweeter" channels of the 880 full range and not use any X-over settings? If so, just use the X-over built into your amp. It will go high enough to use on the XR3's. It's not perfect, but it will get you where you want to be until you can pick up a different head or DSP unit. Just some food for thought.


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## bikerider (Dec 28, 2008)

Boostedrex said:


> You may not have to. *Can you run the "tweeter" channels of the 880 full range and not use any X-over settings?* If so, just use the X-over built into your amp. It will go high enough to use on the XR3's. It's not perfect, but it will get you where you want to be until you can pick up a different head or DSP unit. Just some food for thought.


I think it could be doable, but not in Network (active) mode. In Std mode I think I could:

- Run the XR3's from the front output fullrange to another amp with better HPF capability (variable 65Hz-4.5KHz) which should work fine.

- The mids could be an issue as it looks like the best I could do is a pseudo bandpass with a 80Hz/12dB HPF from the HU rear outputs and a 200Hz/24dB LPF at the amp.

The XR3 would be on 12dB slopes, so it may be possible to underlap a bit. Think I still retain the L/R equalizer too so it may work.

OP, sorry to derail your excellent review....back to regularly scheduled programming now. Thanks Zach for giving me something to think about for the next few months before the drivers are available


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

The XR3M are available, AR3K the ones that are a ways out.


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## bikerider (Dec 28, 2008)

H-Audio Inc. said:


> The XR3M are available, AR3K the ones that are a ways out.


Correction - before I have the resources to buy them


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## morgan18 (Dec 31, 2006)

Are the preorders on the ar duo still on time


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## mSaLL150 (Aug 14, 2008)

bikerider said:


> I think it could be doable, but not in Network (active) mode. In Std mode I think I could:
> 
> - Run the XR3's from the front output fullrange to another amp with better HPF capability (variable 65Hz-4.5KHz) which should work fine.
> 
> ...


Yeah but if you're not in network mode I dont think you can use time alignment.


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## bikerider (Dec 28, 2008)

mSaLL150 said:


> Yeah but if you're not in network mode I dont think you can use time alignment.


I missed that one. That would not be good. Oh well, just add a DEX-P99RS to the mix and it will all be good


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## bikerider (Dec 28, 2008)

mSaLL150 said:


> Yeah but if you're not in network mode I dont think you can use time alignment.


Sorry to re-quote you, but I can't edit my previous reply. I was wrong, it is possible to bypass the head unit crossovers in network mode (I read my manual a bit closer ). I would have to use my amp crossovers for the LPF on the mids and the wideband HPF, but it would definitely work better than I originally wrote/thought and I would retain TA on the deck...

EDIT - I am wrong again, the tweeters (hi channel) cannot be bypassed in network mode, only the mids can. Looks like I'd need a different HU or an external processor to get this to work the way I'd like it to. Finebar, please accept my apologies for cluttering up your review.


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## finebar4 (Aug 26, 2005)

bikerider said:


> Sorry to re-quote you, but I can't edit my previous reply. I was wrong, it is possible to bypass the head unit crossovers in network mode (I read my manual a bit closer ). I would have to use my amp crossovers for the LPF on the mids and the wideband HPF, but it would definitely work better than I originally wrote/thought and I would retain TA on the deck...
> 
> EDIT - I am wrong again, the tweeters (hi channel) cannot be bypassed in network mode, only the mids can. Looks like I'd need a different HU or an external processor to get this to work the way I'd like it to. Finebar, please accept my apologies for cluttering up your review.


No worries. Got to be honest and say that I have been way busy with life and haven't been on here much lately. I can't sing enough praises about these drivers. Mark is incredible to deal with.......definitely see some home monitors being built around another pair of these. I have company in from FL right now seeing the new baby, however, i will try to get more posted up in the real near future.


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

I saw a video of soundman doing a 2 way with a mid driver from hybrid, with a mid from hyrbid, i forget what it wa sbut it was a 4" hybrid, sounded pretty good through a mic, i woudln't know in person since thats a cali shop but i've been curiouse about such things, how much did this set run you and how much power can they take?


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

The limitations of the crossover sections of most 2-ways front capable headunits is really a PITA!

I know this problem, I am looking out for an affordable headunit that can do:
- 1 pair of channels high-passed at maximum 300Hz 12 or 18dB/oct, 250 or 200Hz would be even better.
- 1 pair of channels band-passed between 25Hz (6 or 12dB/oct) high-pass and somewhere between 200 and 300Hz (12 or 18dB/oct) low-pass
- 1 pair of channels that can be delayed at least 15ms and do 300-5k or full-range

It seems you need to get a 4-way capable headunit/processor to do this, while I only need 3 pairs of outputs --> RIDICULOUS!

Isabelle


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

Candisa said:


> The limitations of the crossover sections of most 2-ways front capable headunits is really a PITA!
> 
> I know this problem, I am looking out for an affordable headunit that can do:
> - 1 pair of channels high-passed at maximum 300Hz 12 or 18dB/oct, 250 or 200Hz would be even better.
> ...


have you looked at the Eclispe CD7100?


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## mSaLL150 (Aug 14, 2008)

Candisa said:


> I am looking out for an affordable headunit that can do:
> - 1 pair of channels high-passed at maximum 300Hz 12 or 18dB/oct, 250 or 200Hz would be even better.
> - 1 pair of channels band-passed between 25Hz (6 or 12dB/oct) high-pass and somewhere between 200 and 300Hz (12 or 18dB/oct) low-pass
> - 1 pair of channels that can be delayed at least 15ms and do 300-5k or full-range


The Alpine 9887 crossovers can do that, but you are limited on EQ with only 5-7 bands. But I believe you can add an imprint device to it to have many more EQ options.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

No I didn't, but now I do that, I cannot seam to find it over here...

I tought Eclipse stopped making after-market gear?

Isabelle


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## OSN (Nov 19, 2008)

Candisa said:


> The limitations of the crossover sections of most 2-ways front capable headunits is really a PITA!
> 
> I know this problem, I am looking out for an affordable headunit that can do:
> - 1 pair of channels high-passed at maximum 300Hz 12 or 18dB/oct, 250 or 200Hz would be even better.
> ...


Eclipse CD8443/8053, I believe does this.


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## chefhow (Apr 29, 2007)

They did in the US but I believe they still do over seas in Asia.


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## Melodic Acoustic (Oct 10, 2005)

Candisa said:


> The limitations of the crossover sections of most 2-ways front capable headunits is really a PITA!
> 
> I know this problem, I am looking out for an affordable headunit that can do:
> - 1 pair of channels high-passed at maximum 300Hz 12 or 18dB/oct, 250 or 200Hz would be even better.
> ...


That is a hard one. The Eclipse 8443, 8053, 7100 and 7200 come close, but the 25hz band-pass is the issue as the band-pass on them will not go below 50hz, but will go quite high and can be set to all-pass/flat on each end.

If i remember correctly the high-pass will get down to 315hz at the lowest or you can all-pass/flat for a fullrange signal. 

The low pass will not go below 50hz, but can be made all-pass/flat.


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

mSaLL150 said:


> The Alpine 9887 crossovers can do that, but you are limited on EQ with only 5-7 bands. But I believe you can add an imprint device to it to have many more EQ options.


I didn't see this post when posting my previous post.
I'll check out if the 9887 fits my wishes and pick one up if it does.
I don't care about EQ since I have a pair of EQT's anyways.
Thanks!

I'm affraid Eclipse is not an option since they've stopped making after-market gear and it didn't become popular enough over here to find it used.

Isabelle


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Just looked up the Alpine 9887: like most 3-ways headunit, it cannot do all that I want (time-alignment is too restricted and probably the high-pass section of the high-out too, the latter isn't very clear in the manual).

It seems that I'm gonna have to buy a 4-ways capable headunit/headunit+processor-combo (I know Xenia's HX-D2 can do the job, but she needs it herself) to do F.A.S.T. + ambient rear-fill or just build a carPC...

Isabelle


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## eviling (Apr 14, 2010)

Candisa said:


> I didn't see this post when posting my previous post.
> I'll check out if the 9887 fits my wishes and pick one up if it does.
> I don't care about EQ since I have a pair of EQT's anyways.
> Thanks!
> ...


I've got an eclipse 7200 mkii that'll be ont he market soon  i have no problem shipping it, im east cost so shipping shoudlnt be TOO TOO BAD, but sitll probobly looking at like 30$ :surprised:


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

We have different FM-radio frequencies over here 
This is the main reason why there isn't a subiMc (Subaru OEM headunit for the US made by McIntosh) in Xenia's car (which would match perfectly with her dashboard and her McIntosh amps)...


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## subwoofery (Nov 9, 2008)

Candisa said:


> We have different FM-radio frequencies over here
> This is the main reason why there isn't a subiMc (Subaru OEM headunit for the US made by McIntosh) in Xenia's car (which would match perfectly with her dashboard and her McIntosh amps)...


To answer some questions you might have. 
The CD7000 that I'm using can do 50Hz to 200Hz bandpassed and 200Hz highpass on the TW RCAs. CD7100 and CD7200mkII should be the same. 
Another advantage with Eclipse is that you can select your FM-radio frequencies. Since I live in Tahiti, I selected AUS (Australian which has odd freqs too). 

Kelvin 

PS: might help http://www.eclipse-web.com/us/download/manual/cd7200mkII_e/audio/pdf/CD7200mkIIae99.pdf


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## Candisa (Sep 15, 2007)

Wow, this is probably the closest I've ever been to the ideal headunit!

But off-course, there is again 1 think that is too restricted for my needs: TA only goes up to 10ms 

Can you send me a private-message with what you'd ask for this unit when you sell it, including shipping costs to Belgium(Europe)?
Maybe I can find a cheap solution to add an extra 5-10ms of delay on the ambient-rear-fill-speakers...

Isabelle


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