# Focal vs scanspeak for high end door speakers? Help me pick please



## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

Hey guys, I am a member of a different car audio forums and I asked them about focals and one guy mentioned scanspeak. I never heard of these speakers nor did anyone else but he told me to come to this forums because its more high end audio enthusiasts 

Anyways, I have a 2012 Infiniti G37 Sedan and i wanted to get some really high end sounding door speakers.

After I researched a lot I had my mind set of a pair of (FOCAL 165 KRX2) But this gentleman told me to do this:

"Do a full 3 way set of scanspeak discoveries mids and midbasses with some seas prestige tweeters with a DSP, properly time aligned and RTA'd"

Because he said he listened to both Focal and these and he said these were better sounding. 

What do you guys think? any suggestions? Something better than Focals that generally are cheaper, or same price. 

PS: I got a sub-woofer (FI Q15) running off a soundcubed 2200 so im all set in the subs department.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

if you were ready to drop the cash for the krx2, then might as well go with the top of the line scanspeaks.. 18w mid, and r3004 tweeter if you can get them on axis, or d3004 if you need to install them off axis (and 12m or 12mu if you want to go three way)


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

You can't go wrong with Scans. You'd be hard-pressed to find any negative comments on here (or anywhere) about them across the board. Out of those 2 brands I'd choose the Scans, personally.


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## bugsplat (Nov 7, 2014)

Once you open the door to active systems you have a much larger world to explore. It sounds like you want great sound. You can't beat an active systems options. Yes you have better and cheaper options. Id research Active vs Passive.


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## drowssap (Oct 23, 2013)

I personally have a fondness for Dynaudio esotars....preferably the stuff I have for sale! But I have had the pleasure of messing with some scans and was pretty impressed with those as well.


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> if you were ready to drop the cash for the krx2, then might as well go with the top of the line scanspeaks.. 18w mid, and r3004 tweeter if you can get them on axis, or d3004 if you need to install them off axis (and 12m or 12mu if you want to go three way)


Wow this is foreign language to me, lol, im such a noob. 

can someone help me like pick the speakers i need, i want to spend around $700~ for the font door speakers, then i will get some coaxial speakers for the rear seat doors because they dont have spots for tweeters. I dont have time to put a ton of research into learning about this to make my own informed decision, i would rather take someones advice that has learned this already. Then im going to have a professional do the install "someone from this forums" Steve Head (goes by audionutz on the forum)

I would like to just install the speakers in my doors, i dont want to make that fiberglass thing i see people have done. in my infiniti g37 there are actually 3 speakers in my door already. 

BTW: I got a kicker zx850.4 to power the door speakers, very powerful amp, so gains will be set low to keep the signal good and amp cool.
specs:
4 ohms: 175 watts x 4 chan.
2 ohms: 215 watts x 4 chan.

_PS: I know you might think I was going to spend more $$ since i said Focal 165krx2 but i was getting them for a really good deal._


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

do you have, or do you plan on getting a processor? thats going to be the best piece of equipment for your system and will need one (unless you have an active capable head unit) if you want to run raw drivers (no passive crossovers) like scanspeak


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## LaserSVT (Feb 1, 2009)

If you are ready to drop that kind of money I would HIGHLY suggest Sinfoni Maestoso. After a few years of changes I can now say that my truck is done with the Sinfoni components.

The Focals on the other hand are also very excellent sounding speakers. The midrange in the KRX3 variant leaves quite a bit to be desired but the midbass kick is great and the tweeters are very crisp and detailed. The Sinfoni sounds better IMHO but the Focal can definitely get louder on less power.

Can not say anything about the Scanspeak mids but I do love their tweeters. I have heard the seas prestige tweeters in a friends car and they were nice but not quite my flavor. Dude knows how to tune and stage was perfect but the tweeters seemed to lack any real sparkle. But I do like hot tweeters so take that with a grain of salt.




EDIT: Was typing as the responses came in. The Sinfoni will be closer to double that $700 budget. The Eroico would be pretty close though and those too sound excellent.
Here is a link. I get poo because I am such a Sinfoni fan boy now but hey, great is great.
http://www.sinfoni.com/speakers/eroico/


EDIT SOME MORE: What Prestige tweeters though? I forgot there were a couple. I heard the textile dome version. Dunno how the aluminum ones sound.


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> do you have, or do you plan on getting a processor? thats going to be the best piece of equipment for your system and will need one (unless you have an active capable head unit) if you want to run raw drivers (no passive crossovers) like scanspeak


Well I dont know what my head unit it capable of, but if the processor isnt alot more money and if you think its worth it i will definitely consider it. you seem like you know what your talking about. how much do those generally run? i dont even no what they look like, this is the first time hearing about a processor.



LaserSVT said:


> If you are ready to drop that kind of money I would HIGHLY suggest Sinfoni Maestoso. After a few years of changes I can now say that my truck is done with the Sinfoni components.
> 
> The Focals on the other hand are also very excellent sounding speakers. The midrange in the KRX3 variant leaves quite a bit to be desired but the midbass kick is great and the tweeters are very crisp and detailed. The Sinfoni sounds better IMHO but the Focal can definitely get louder on less power.
> 
> ...


thanks for the suggestion , I will look into those, yeah that double my price range is.. well.. out of my price range lol. 

and I'm not sure what Prestige tweeters he was referring to, I just copied and pasted his exact message thats why i came on this message board to get some more advice and possibly get someone help me pick one which speakers i actually need.



fish said:


> You can't go wrong with Scans. You'd be hard-pressed to find any negative comments on here (or anywhere) about them across the board. Out of those 2 brands I'd choose the Scans, personally.


are you just talking about scans in generally or do you have some in mind? I'm not sure how to pick which scans i need that will give me the best performance thats close to my price range.


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## jriggs (Jun 14, 2011)

If you want Scanspeak,. Go with the 7" Revelators. I have used them and the more expensive Illuminator and in a door, I would pick the Revelators.


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## fish (Jun 30, 2007)

I've heard a few different Illuminator tweets & mids, & a few Discovery mids.

Not to sound condescending, but before you go spend your money on some raw speakers (used in active setup) you should probably read up on what's required to go active. There's lots more to it than putting some pricey speakers in your doors & expecting them to sound good out the gate. 

You may realize buying a nice set of passive speakers is more your preference.


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## bugsplat (Nov 7, 2014)

fish said:


> I've heard a few different Illuminator tweets & mids, & a few Discovery mids.
> 
> Not to sound condescending, but before you go spend your money on some raw speakers (used in active setup) you should probably read up on what's required to go active. There's lots more to it than putting some pricey speakers in your doors & expecting them to sound good out the gate.
> 
> You may realize buying a nice set of passive speakers is more your preference.


Could not agree more. He may not have the time our interest to go active. Focal makes some great sounding components and anyone would be very happy with them.


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## jonnybruno (Feb 18, 2015)

Calling user greggerst22 ! He is the g37 expert. 

I'm doing a similar build, in my 2011 g37 sedan. Just got an ms8 processor, planning to get scanspeak 18w revelators for midBass, 10f midrange, d3004 tweeters.. Powering probably with an arc xdi 1200.6. Already have an image dynamics idq10 in the mix. 

All the scanspeaks come to around 850... Slightly past your budget. Could probably use the discovery 18w scanspeak and drop that to mid 600s or so.

Some really good info over in this thread. I'm not sure if woofersus every finished his system, but greggerst22 had great info and install pics for the g37.


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## CoLd_FuSiOn (Jun 25, 2012)

Having heard both my vote goes for the scans 

Sent from my One Plus One using Tapatalk


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

SkizeR said:


> do you have, or do you plan on getting a processor? thats going to be the best piece of equipment for your system and will need one (unless you have an active capable head unit) if you want to run raw drivers (no passive crossovers) like scanspeak


*/\ THIS /\ *



If you already have Focal KRX2 speakers, then keep them - they're definitely considered to be in the 'top tier' of car audio speakers. 
Everybody has their own personal preference for speaker brand / sound, but there's nothing wrong with your Focals.
The Scans might offer a slight improvement (might), but a DSP will offer a huge improvement.

Spend the money on a decent DSP, and run your Focals active, from a DSP. This will give you the option to tune each tweeter/driver individually.


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

i know the Scans are about 6x the price, but how do they compare to Dayton Reference? and Silver Flutes? since it sounds like OP is looking for best bang for buck


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

jimmydee said:


> */\ THIS /\ *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dont already have focals, im here to ask which speakers to buy.



jonnybruno said:


> Calling user greggerst22 ! He is the g37 expert.
> 
> I'm doing a similar build, in my 2011 g37 sedan. Just got an ms8 processor, planning to get scanspeak 18w revelators for midBass, 10f midrange, d3004 tweeters.. Powering probably with an arc xdi 1200.6. Already have an image dynamics idq10 in the mix.
> 
> ...


thanks for the info i will look into this



fish said:


> I've heard a few different Illuminator tweets & mids, & a few Discovery mids.
> 
> Not to sound condescending, but before you go spend your money on some raw speakers (used in active setup) you should probably read up on what's required to go active. There's lots more to it than putting some pricey speakers in your doors & expecting them to sound good out the gate.
> 
> You may realize buying a nice set of passive speakers is more your preference.


im finding way to much info about this that i just dont have time to learn about, the main thing is money, if i get the right components and get the right installer i dont see why i have to learn all this. once its setup isnt it good from there? or do you always have to tweak things when listening to them?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Murkr said:


> I dont already have focals, im here to ask which speakers to buy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tune is a major part of it. The most important in 99%of installs actually. So it's either you learn how to tune, or go to someone who knows how to. Also, even a lot of the best installers don't know how to tune good

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

SkizeR said:


> Tune is a major part of it. The most important in 99%of installs actually. So it's either you learn how to tune, or go to someone who knows how to. Also, even a lot of the best installers don't know how to tune good
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


yeah i actually found someone on this forums that is highly reputable and about 2 hours away, so its worth the drive. 

wow im reading that thread jonnybruno suggested and he wants to get a JBL MS-8 processor, after looking up how much those cost they are around $800? how much would an active system cost in total do you think? with scans suggested above? I was hoping to just buy a nice component set and hook it up to my 4 channel amp. But i'm realizing that active's need a lot more "stuff" to buy.


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

Murkr said:


> yeah i actually found someone on this forums that is highly reputable and about 2 hours away, so its worth the drive.
> 
> wow im reading that thread jonnybruno suggested and he wants to get a JBL MS-8 processor, after looking up how much those cost they are around $800? how much would an active system cost in total do you think? with scans suggested above? I was hoping to just buy a nice component set and hook it up to my 4 channel amp. But i'm realizing that active's need a lot more "stuff" to buy.


I'm looking to spend about $800 - $1000for a DSP, if you want to run 3way active up front you'll need more than your 4channel Amp so you WILL Need to buy a separate amor to run the midbass. 
I'm still in the process of acquiring the components for my active install. its all more expensive, but from what I've been reading its worth it and you will have a whole lot more control over the sound of the car. Xover points, slope, time alignment etc. its not for everyone. from what I've gathered so far in this thread it sounds like you want a quick install with out any fuss, if that is indeed the case, a passive component setup will do you just fine. you may be able to use your 4channel amp bridged to get more power out of the components you end up buying or you can use the front channels of the 4xamp and the other 2 channels for the rear fill if you choose to have a rear fill.


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## jonnybruno (Feb 18, 2015)

Murkr said:


> yeah i actually found someone on this forums that is highly reputable and about 2 hours away, so its worth the drive.
> 
> wow im reading that thread jonnybruno suggested and he wants to get a JBL MS-8 processor, after looking up how much those cost they are around $800? how much would an active system cost in total do you think? with scans suggested above? I was hoping to just buy a nice component set and hook it up to my 4 channel amp. But i'm realizing that active's need a lot more "stuff" to buy.


Used ms8s can be had under 400$


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

vwjmkv said:


> I'm looking to spend about $800 - $1000for a DSP, if you want to run 3way active up front you'll need more than your 4channel Amp so you WILL Need to buy a separate amor to run the midbass.
> I'm still in the process of acquiring the components for my active install. its all more expensive, but from what I've been reading its worth it and you will have a whole lot more control over the sound of the car. Xover points, slope, time alignment etc. its not for everyone. from what I've gathered so far in this thread it sounds like you want a quick install with out any fuss, if that is indeed the case, a passive component setup will do you just fine. you may be able to use your 4channel amp bridged to get more power out of the components you end up buying or you can use the front channels of the 4xamp and the other 2 channels for the rear fill if you choose to have a rear fill.


well i wont be installing it myself, id have a pro do it, but i think you might be right about going passive. My door speakers in my old ride were some Alpine SPR-60C and i just want to upgrade to better sound this time around, i thought those sounded "okay" but i never really heard a high quality setup in real life before. I really dont want to spend over $1000 because i already have a good 4 channel amp, i thought all id need are a good 2 or 3 component set, but with that added "processor" id need i think its starting to get out of my price range. 

I listen to rap & electro btw, not sure if that makes a difference.

can i still get a really high quality sound from a passive setup? something that will blow me away "i guess that wont be hard to do since im used to Alpine SPR-60C lol"


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## vwjmkv (Apr 23, 2011)

I've heard the focals you are talking about, they tend to run for $1200+. if you can get them for $700 do it! they will be nice out of the box passive.


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

vwjmkv said:


> I've heard the vocals you are talking about, they tend to run for $1200+. if you can get them for $700 do it! they will be nice out of the box passive.


thanks for the tip! In the $700 price range is there anything better sounding than the FOCAL 165 KRX2? I hate the internet, i always think there is somthing better of value than what i want lol.


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Murkr said:


> thanks for the tip! In the $700 price range is there anything better sounding than the FOCAL 165 KRX2? I hate the internet, i always think there is somthing better of value than what i want lol.


As mentioned, everyone has their 'personal preferences'... and for $700 you'll have a number of speaker choices. 
Focal makes very nice speakers. As does Scanspeak. As do many others.

If you want to invest more money, and build a really nice system, then I would say; "blow the budget, buy the Scans, get a Mosconi or Helix DSP, and go active". 

But if you want to stay within budget, then get the Focals! They are a VERY nice set of speakers. Even passive, they are nice.


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

jimmydee said:


> As mentioned, everyone has their 'personal preferences'... and for $700 you'll have a number of speaker choices.
> Focal makes very nice speakers. As does Scanspeak. As do many others.
> 
> If you want to invest more money, and build a really nice system, then I would say; "blow the budget, buy the Scans, get a Mosconi or Helix DSP, and go active".
> ...


so from what im gathering focals are good for my passive setup needs, and scans are more for active setups correct?

What about hybrid-audio, im hearing alot of good things about them, do they run good in a passive setup?


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## JimmyDee (Mar 8, 2014)

Murkr said:


> so from what im gathering focals are good for my passive setup needs, and scans are more for active setups correct?


No... what I'm saying is they are BOTH very good speakers. But since the Focal set already comes with a passive crossover, you might as well utilize it.

If you want to spend the money on separate components, and get a DSP (to run active), then I would get the Scans. I have the Scan Illuminator D3004 tweeter, and I can tell you that it is way nicer sounding than the Focal. 



Murkr said:


> What about hybrid-audio, im hearing alot of good things about them, do they run good in a passive setup?


HAT makes very good speakers. I've only heard a demo board, but I was impressed. I'll leave this to others, with more experience with Hybrid, to comment further...


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

jimmydee said:


> No... what I'm saying is they are BOTH very good speakers. But since the Focal set already comes with a passive crossover, you might as well utilize it.
> 
> If you just want to spend the money on separate components, and get a DSP (to run active), then I would get the Scans. I have the Scan Illuminator D3004 tweeter, and I can tell you that it is way nicer sounding than the Focal.
> 
> ...


I no there are better options but i want to stay around the $700-$1000 price range, thats why i decided to go passive, because i wouldnt need to buy a $500+ DSP


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## susedan (Aug 11, 2015)

I say go with the focals. Then, if you get the itch for better sound buy a dsp and tweak to your hearts content. 

Are the scans better? That's a matter of preference. At any rate those focals are fantastic, especially for that price. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## susedan (Aug 11, 2015)

susedan said:


> I say go with the focals. Then, if you get the itch for better sound buy a dsp and tweak to your hearts content.
> 
> Are the scans better? That's a matter of preference. At any rate those focals are fantastic, especially for that price.


Update: Just found this kit on Madisound. Scanspeaks tend to be a little harder to mount (some fabrication/customization required) but thought you might be interested as they are about $750 and come with crossovers, which, you could always remove later if you decide to go active 
madisoundspeakerstore.com/auto-kits/scanspeak-6.5-2-way-signature-car-audio-kit


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## Kazuhiro (Apr 28, 2015)

IF you go active - you are entering the deeper realms of car audio which will consume you.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

I think it was Erin that said he didn't have good luck with these IB. Others have mentioned this as well. Then again some have had good luck.


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

I know they haven't been mentioned but the Audiofrog GB60s look great. Flat FR response and designed for door use. 9mm xmax too. If I had the budget for these I would look no further.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Hertz Mille also falls into that range. Worth a look


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

hey guys, I just learned this forums has a great classified section, i cant believe no one told me to look their lol, i dont mind buying used. Plus the prices are a lot cheaper, so i can get some higher end stuff for cheaper. 

I was thinking about going with hybrid audio, maybe the Legatia series if i can find them at a good deal. My sound preference is i think more towards bright sounding speakers, i dont like the hollow sound too much.

Also, I was really considering getting those scans 6.5 component set, but im learning that those are for home audio and has a paper cone, im afraid they might get ruined in my ride, i live in FL. Also the crossover has no case, im afraid i might break it, im going to have luxury liner pro in my doors so i dont know how i can fit that in their.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Where in Florida?


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

Murkr said:


> hey guys, I just learned this forums has a great classified section, i cant believe no one told me to look their lol, i dont mind buying used. Plus the prices are a lot cheaper, so i can get some higher end stuff for cheaper.
> 
> I was thinking about going with hybrid audio, maybe the Legatia series if i can find them at a good deal. My sound preference is i think more towards bright sounding speakers, i dont like the hollow sound too much.
> 
> Also, I was really considering getting those scans 6.5 component set, but im learning that those are for home audio and has a paper cone, im afraid they might get ruined in my ride, i live in FL. Also the crossover has no case, im afraid i might break it, im going to have luxury liner pro in my doors so i dont know how i can fit that in their.


That was one of the reasons I decided against them too. Also live in Florida. Very humid. If investing in high dollar drivers I would recommend getting drivers that are designed for car audio use (free air). Many are happy with Legatia. Don't forget to check out the AF GB60s. Probably won't find them used because they are so new. 

AudioFrog Gb60 and the JBL 660GTI mids are VERY nice drivers. Though the JBL mids can't be bought separate from the set unfortunately. Klippels were done on the JBL. great results.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

If it's a 2 way I would skip HATs. They have low mid bass. Sound very good with a 3 way dedicated mid bass


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

DDfusion said:


> Hertz Mille also falls into that range. Worth a look


Some great mids too. Sometime the Hertz Mlk 165 set pops up on EBay. The old one.... The old set is the one I would shoot for.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

The .3s are amazing. That's what my original end game was since I've had great luck with the HSKs and XLs. 

If Sinfoini don't blow my mind


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> Where in Florida?


Port Richey, its in Pasco County, near Tampa



DDfusion said:


> If it's a 2 way I would skip HATs. They have low mid bass. Sound very good with a 3 way dedicated mid bass


ahh i hate hearing conflicting info, from what i read HAT's L6SE & Legatia L1 Pro R2 tweeters would be a good 2-way component set, that is good for off-axis setup. 

What Hat's were you referring to? maybe some hats are not good for 2 way where as others are.

Also, im just mentioning those because they are currently for sale in the classifieds, i might go with used speakers so that i can get "higher end" at the price i want.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

they where the L6. The owner was having a hard time getting good mid bass under 120hz and that's what I heard also, he was also use to running a strong 3 way. He said he was trying to find a spot to add the 8 mid bass without tearing up his car. I think it was a lease


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## Arete (Oct 6, 2013)

Murkr said:


> Port Richey, its in Pasco County, near Tampa
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you want strong midbass with Hybrid I think the Clarus are said to be quite strong. The FR graph doesn't reflect that unfortunately. A member here... Huckleberry Sound sells Hybrid stuff at a good price. Look in the classifieds but you may want to drop him a message too. Not just Hybrid but other drivers too.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

As far as going active or passive, I think it also depends on how picky you are. Going active in my system I have noticed it has given me a much stronger lower volume listening level. I don't have to turn it up so much to start hear music, so this has given me more listening range which I use daily. 

Passives will sound very good, but to have a tuner fine tune things, its like having a high end stock system specifically designed for your car, except it has a much higher limit and sounds way better.

Once you have a good tuner setup the DSP, you are done. But I would have 2 to 3 "slopes" made for fine tuning the extremes in different music genres.

As far as 2way vs 3way, again, its how picky you might be, and I would say for sure do the 3 way now or forever hold your piece.

Between the 3 or 4 brands, if you go active and 3 way, its hard to split hairs even for a picky guy as your tuning them individually. 

The only problem with 3 way active is the 2 other channels you need a amp for.

As far as MS8 I have seen them go regularly on Ebay for about $175-300 used. You can get a RF 3Sixty.3 for about $450-500 as well, and that will need a tuner. The MS8 you can do yourself. I have worked with both, and the MS8 is more plug and play. If you are not happy with what it dishes out, there is little left to adjust. Full DSP you will need a tuner.

These are just my expereinces and hope it helps.


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

i did the reseach finally lol, 

im getting a 

L1proR2
L6SE
ms-8

then the tweeters ran off a JL Audio JX 360/2 ($100 for a new one, good deal)
and a 4 channel amp for the L6SE and maybe save the other two channels for some coaxial in the rear doors. or save those 2 channels for some L3SE's if i feel they're needed, buts most likely ill be happy with a 2-way


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## jonnybruno (Feb 18, 2015)

What's your full plan? Going to skip the center or run off the ms8 powered channel? 

Please update when complete! Curious to hear how the two way sounds. Wondering if the woofer so low will pull the sound stage down or if the ms8 can compensate for that. I imagine it might do a decent job.


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## 1996blackmax (Aug 29, 2007)

Subbed ....interested in seeing how the install goes.

As for the Scans. I've had mine installed in the doors for a year and a half with no issues. Granted, it doesn't rain a lot here, but I've been to areas where it does. I have no plans of changing them out, as I'm very happy with their performance as well as the rest of the Scan drivers in my car.


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

jonnybruno said:


> What's your full plan? Going to skip the center or run off the ms8 powered channel?
> 
> Please update when complete! Curious to hear how the two way sounds. Wondering if the woofer so low will pull the sound stage down or if the ms8 can compensate for that. I imagine it might do a decent job.


im still a noob learning, what do you mean by center? like a center speaker? :blush: 
because on my dashboard it does have a speaker in it.

and honestly when its all installed i dont think my word will be worth much because i never heard any other active system before in my life, or any high quality speakers lol. so im sure it will sound amazing to me even if i butcher the tuning or placement haha


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## Gomer Pilot (Nov 30, 2014)

Murkr said:


> i did the reseach finally lol,
> 
> im getting a
> 
> ...


Why do you think you need an additional amp to run the tweets? 175 per channel at 4 ohms will be enough for your needs to run the L6SE and you'll have to watch the gain on the other two channels running the tweets. You certainly don't need to bridge and put 425 watts on those mids.

If you're dead set on getting another amp, bite the bullet and get the L3SE now and just go three way initially. You won't need rear speakers and won't want them anyway, but pretty sure your budget is completely blown just getting the L6SE and the L1 Pros.


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

Gomer Pilot said:


> Why do you think you need an additional amp to run the tweets? 175 per channel at 4 ohms will be enough for your needs to run the L6SE and you'll have to watch the gain on the other two channels running the tweets. You certainly don't need to bridge and put 425 watts on those mids.
> 
> If you're dead set on getting another amp, bite the bullet and get the L3SE now and just go three way initially. You won't need rear speakers and won't want them anyway, but pretty sure your budget is completely blown just getting the L6SE and the L1 Pros.


lol your right about my budget, but in time ill get more cash 

the reason why i wanted to get another amp to run the tweeters was because i planned on using my 4-channel amp to run the L6SE's in the front, and then some rear door coaxial speakers for my backseat guests (all 4 of the channels). But you think i wont need speakers in the rears? i want people in my backseats to hear the SQ & be loud.. because ill have some serious bass back there with my Fi Q15 sub. why did you say i wont want them?


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## tjframe (Jun 17, 2015)

I definitely feel something is missing without any rear speakers, but I use them only to boost the support of the midbass. Purists will argue you only need front midbass, but I have found that if you do it right it can be great. When I listen to my system with the rears on, then turn them off, I can feel something "lacking" you might not even miss unless you can compare them side by side.

If you use a DSP you can set up an "inaccurate" sounding configuration with highs and mids in the rear for passengers to enjoy, then also create an accurate driver/front passenger configuration without the highs and mids so that the proper sound stage depth is not messed up.

I have my system setup as follows and I'm super happy with the deep full sound that envelopes you in the lower-mid bass range. 

Alpine DLX-F30T tweeter pods - 180watts rms crossed at 4075hz using a 24db/Linkwitz-Riley
4" HAT Legatia L3v2 mid - 180watts rms crossed at 385hz to 4075hz using a 24db/Linkwitz-Riley
7" HAT Legatia L6v2 front midbass - 180watts rms crossed at 65hz to 385hz using a 24db/Linkwitz-Riley
6.5" HAT Imagine 161-2v2 rear doors - 180watts rms crossed at 65hz to 200hz using a24db/Linkwitz-Riley
Two Sundown SA-10D2 subwoofers - 1200watts rms crossed at 65hz using a 24db/Linkwitz-Riley

I read somewhere in one the threads that a full 20ms delay for the rear speakers creates an ideal amount of ambience, but since my DSP only goes to 15.6ms, that's what I use.


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

tjframe said:


> If you use a DSP you can set up an "inaccurate" sounding configuration with highs and mids in the rear for passengers to enjoy, then also create an accurate driver/front passenger configuration without the highs and mids so that the proper sound stage depth is not messed up.


Can you go into alittle more dept with this, im a noob, so please see my point of not knowing what this means 

also, what DPS do you use? i will have a MS-8.


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## Gomer Pilot (Nov 30, 2014)

When working with a DSP, one of the primary functions is time alignment to create a "stage" by the signals arriving at different times. Most people want the stage in the front of the listener, and oftentimes specifically position speakers to pull the stage further forward. When you keep rear speakers running in an active setup, it can counteract that philosophy and while you may have a full enveloping sound, it will be counter to most thinking. (I didn't say all)

Also, you mentioned L3SEs in the future which would put you with a 3 way front later on. You're not going to have enough channels processor wise to run a 3 way front plus rears plus subs and process them all which could leave you with rears which are not time aligned and creates a huge mess.


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## jonnybruno (Feb 18, 2015)

tjframe said:


> I definitely feel something is missing without any rear speakers, but I use them only to boost the support of the midbass. Purists will argue you only need front midbass, but I have found that if you do it right it can be great. When I listen to my system with the rears on, then turn them off, I can feel something "lacking" you might not even miss unless you can compare them side by side.
> 
> If you use a DSP you can set up an "inaccurate" sounding configuration with highs and mids in the rear for passengers to enjoy, then also create an accurate driver/front passenger configuration without the highs and mids so that the proper sound stage depth is not messed up.
> 
> ...


I'm new to processors, but if I'm reading this correct, the further away your speakers are, the greater delay you set? Shouldn't it be the opposite? 0 delay on subs assuming they are in the trunk and furthest, and growing as the speakers get closer to you?


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## tjframe (Jun 17, 2015)

Murkr said:


> Can you go into alittle more dept with this, im a noob, so please see my point of not knowing what this means
> 
> also, what DPS do you use? i will have a MS-8.


I'm now using a Helix Pro

What I mean was that most (all??) DSPs allow you to store more than one configuration of settings that you can alternate between. So if just you and and a front passenger are going to be in the car you can select the settings such that the rear speakers are more muted and "fill" in the rear soundstage, especially the lower frequencies. That sort of setting will be more accurate and faithful to the original layout of the band and their instruments. The main source of sound will mostly come from the front soundstage.

But if you want to accommodate passengers sitting in the back from time to time, you can save a another setting configuration which, although technically "inaccurate" as far as proper sound reproduction goes, it will give your rear passengers more mids and highs to help them hear the full range of sound better. 

If your DSp has a remote control that allows you to change settings on the fly, you can just alternate between them as you need.


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

Gomer Pilot said:


> When working with a DSP, one of the primary functions is time alignment to create a "stage" by the signals arriving at different times. Most people want the stage in the front of the listener, and oftentimes specifically position speakers to pull the stage further forward. When you keep rear speakers running in an active setup, it can counteract that philosophy and while you may have a full enveloping sound, it will be counter to most thinking. (I didn't say all)
> 
> Also, you mentioned L3SEs in the future which would put you with a 3 way front later on. You're not going to have enough channels processor wise to run a 3 way front plus rears plus subs and process them all which could leave you with rears which are not time aligned and creates a huge mess.


thanks for the info man, that helped. 

i didnt plan or even know i can connect my subs to a DSP, would that even be worth it? 

well im 75% sure i wont get mids "L3SE" because im pretty sure ill be happy with just a 2 way. 

But now this center stage thing, jonny previous said " are you Going to skip the center or run off the ms8 powered channel? " i dont really know what this means..



tjframe said:


> I'm now using a Helix Pro
> 
> What I mean was that most (all??) DSPs allow you to store more than one configuration of settings that you can alternate between. So if just you and and a front passenger are going to be in the car you can select the settings such that the rear speakers are more muted and "fill" in the rear soundstage, especially the lower frequencies. That sort of setting will be more accurate and faithful to the original layout of the band and their instruments. The main source of sound will mostly come from the front soundstage.
> 
> ...


awesome response, that helped alot! i never thought of doing that before.i only have rear passengers like 5-10% of the time i drive anyway, should i just do front stage and leave out the rear speakers to see how it sounds first? 

so for front passengers, when the rear speakers are off, it sound better than if the rear speakers were on? if so, im not sure it will be worth it for me to spend another $500 or so dollars for rear passengers that are only back there 5-10% of the time i drive lol, especially if it makes the front stage sound worse for front passengers .


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## jonnybruno (Feb 18, 2015)

You can run a center channel. The g37 has one stock, on the center dash that you see. What I'm told is that with the ms8 using a center helps make the system sound better to both passengers up front simultaneously. Without it it's usually better tuned for just the driver seat.

I honestly mean no offense at all, but I'm surprised you're dropping so much coin on such a high end system if you really don't know anything about audio. In audio, diminishing returns kick in at a lower price than you are spending. I wonder if you would be just as happy, if not happier without a processor, 2 way passive up front, coaxials in the rear, sub in trunk and a whole bunch power. If your friends know the same as you, in the backseat they will probably be more impressed by a processorless system likely as it will be louder in the back. I believe with the ms8 it will only be ambient surround channels in the back, but I may be wrong... Maybe that is only when logic 7 is on. 

Just thinking you might be just as happy with a bunch of extra cash in your pocket. Something to consider...


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## tjframe (Jun 17, 2015)

jonnybruno said:


> I'm new to processors, but if I'm reading this correct, the further away your speakers are, the greater delay you set? Shouldn't it be the opposite? 0 delay on subs assuming they are in the trunk and furthest, and growing as the speakers get closer to you?


Actually that sub number I listed was wrong - its 10.8ms, or 64.4 inches. I was looking at the wrong column on my DSP settings. nice catch. Every single speaker has its own delay - I just listed one of them, which is sorta confusing I suppose since there is a noticeable difference between the left and right speaker values. 

The way both DSPs that I have used work is that you measure out the distance from the the speaker to yourself in inches and the DSP automatically converts that to the correct delay. 

The greater the distance, the shorter the delay, so its an inverse relationship.

NOTE: I took the timing info out of my original post so as not to confuse people. The only reason I listed time delay at all was to mention the whole "20ms rear fill" approach, which i tried as best I could to emulate and it ended up sounding pretty good to my ears.


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## tjframe (Jun 17, 2015)

jonnybruno said:


> You can run a center channel. The g37 has one stock, on the center dash that you see. What I'm told is that with the ms8 using a center helps make the system sound better to both passengers up front simultaneously. Without it it's usually better tuned for just the driver seat.
> 
> I honestly mean no offense at all, but I'm surprised you're dropping so much coin on such a high end system if you really don't know anything about audio. In audio, diminishing returns kick in at a lower price than you are spending. I wonder if you would be just as happy, if not happier without a processor, 2 way passive up front, coaxials in the rear, sub in trunk and a whole bunch power. If your friends know the same as you, in the backseat they will probably be more impressed by a processorless system likely as it will be louder in the back. I believe with the ms8 it will only be ambient surround channels in the back, but I may be wrong... Maybe that is only when logic 7 is on.
> 
> Just thinking you might be just as happy with a bunch of extra cash in your pocket. Something to consider...



That's a great point. You don't need all this complicated electronic gadgetry to have a great sounding system.

BUT.. In my own particular case, I have found the process of fiddling and tweaking the DSP settings and hearing everything change instantly on the fly to be addicting. Would never ever want to go back. 

People say you can get yourself in over your head with a DSP and components , and that's true.. but if you have a good ear and know what you like you can play around with total control, in real time, and hone in on what you want without having your car's guts ripped up so you can change a crossover setting or whatever. There is no downside to making a wrong decision when tinkering - if you don't like what you hear, change it back or reload the saved configuration.

I can hop into my car and within 2 minutes I can evaluate how changing my crossover points for every speaker in the entire car affects the sound. This is simply not possible without a DSP. For an experienced installer/tuner who knows how to lock in on what they want and doesn't mind opening up doors or pulling the tunk up, then sure, no true need for a big expensive DSP.

I'm not that guy though.. I'm a guy that has went out to his car at 2:AM and fiddled with the settings after reading a DIYMA article. I'll be fiddling with my tuning for months to come - trying out new things etc, and that's part of the enjoyment of having a quality system.

If you the kind of person who doesn't want mess with such things or sees it as a hassle, then a lot of the unique benefits of DSP + components are lost.


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## FordEscape (Nov 23, 2014)

Murkr, perhaps this will help a bit, one very important post with info specific to the MS-8: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1002963-post2151.html

Its important to remember when reading the above that Andy is talking about conditions when using the MS-8 with L7 processing "on"; that's the full processing that (dare I say) most of us with the MS-8 use - that yields the best sense of 'staging' and ambiance, especially when setup for the driver only position and heard from that position.

When you talk about having your rear seat passengers hear loud, good SQ music, that's cool. But you gotta realize that the 'staging' that DSP provides will never be optimal for all listeners in that situation .... that's not a limitation unique to the MS-8, that's a function of acoustics in small spaces and true of all DSP's.

So, for that situation, even though MS-8 allows configuration for all listeners (front and rear) you'll certainly note from your driver's seat that the sound is different and probably not as 'satisfying' as when you listen with it configured for the 'driver only' position. That's the best compromise you can get when trying to 'satisfy' listeners in both the front and rear.

And, in the front+rear listener 'compromise' setting, your side/rear speakers will be doing a lot more work than when they are used for 'rear-fill only' for the driver-only experience.

So where is this going ....

IMHO, and only IMHO, if being able to deliver "loud SQ" for rear seat passengers is a critical priority for you, you may well want to have amps and speakers for the side/rear locations that are just as powerful and capable of loud full-range reproduction as the front. MS-8 will 'tune those down' as needed to still deliver appropriate level for rear-fill when you set it for that 'optimal driver only experience'.

But, (continuing IMHO) if you give those rear seat passengers a bit of a compromise, you can save that money and redirect it to the best possible front stage which is more critical for that optimal driver only experience, by tailoring the rear/side amps/speakers to the slightly reduced range (less bass) and lower sound level (lower power) they need to work wonderfully for driver only rear fill. Just don't compromise on the location of the rear tweeters, higher is better!

So think hard about which 'occupants' you want to make happiest most of the time, recognizing that only one position can be made 'optimal' with any DSP in a car, and the more positions you seek to satisfy, the more 'off of optimal' the experience will be for everyone.

One last bit of IMHO re: center speakers .... many (but not all of us) find that a center speaker is not at all necessary for really great staging for the driver only position. I think most agree that it becomes important when you want to accommodate the driver + front seat passenger with the 'least compromised from optimal' staging.

Two final suggestions ...
+ Try to plow through the MS-8 megathread, it is full of info to help you better understand how MS-8 works and how that can affect speaker setup selection. If that's too intimidating try this abridged version (this is a link to a 1mb PDF document best downloaded and saved to read) http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=58973&d=1423722451

+ If you can stand a 'phased approach' get that MS-8 installed with whatever speaker setup you have now. Nothing beats using it to help you understand how it works and help guide you to a smarter and better setup for your situation.

All just the opinion of one very happy MS-8 user where this approach worked: I installed my MS-8 with waay less than 'optimal' amp and speakers already in my car. I listened to it, played with it, and learned from that. With that hands-on experience I was better able to understand the tons of great info on this site (the mega-thread). I then made one-round of very carefully considered upgrades and have ended-up with a system which really keeps me happy and has impressed the heck out of 99.99% of my passengers (as if that mattered when MY ears are dancing ;-).

Have fun!


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## Murkr (Sep 27, 2015)

jonnybruno said:


> You can run a center channel. The g37 has one stock, on the center dash that you see. What I'm told is that with the ms8 using a center helps make the system sound better to both passengers up front simultaneously. Without it it's usually better tuned for just the driver seat.
> 
> I honestly mean no offense at all, but I'm surprised you're dropping so much coin on such a high end system if you really don't know anything about audio. In audio, diminishing returns kick in at a lower price than you are spending. I wonder if you would be just as happy, if not happier without a processor, 2 way passive up front, coaxials in the rear, sub in trunk and a whole bunch power. If your friends know the same as you, in the backseat they will probably be more impressed by a processorless system likely as it will be louder in the back. I believe with the ms8 it will only be ambient surround channels in the back, but I may be wrong... Maybe that is only when logic 7 is on.
> 
> Just thinking you might be just as happy with a bunch of extra cash in your pocket. Something to consider...


though there is a learning curve, quite steep one i see, im not turned away, all i need to do is keep learning, i dont know how to learn about this besides asking you all these noobish questions, i mean, how did you all learn about this? so far im one week into learning and i learned a lot from you guys, another 2-3 weeks and i should be at least at an intermediate level "im hoping lol". i plan to have my car for 6-7 years, ive always loved loud music and subs, ive had this since i was 16 years old, but now i want to get some SQ along with this loudness. also im buying everything used so its not really that much. i just got some L1proR2's for $325, now i planned on getting some L6SE's or L6v2 for around $300-$425. i can actually get some L6v2 right now for $300, or i can get some L6SE's for $425, i just dont know which one i should get yet.


FordEscape, that message above helped tremendously, you all have taught me that its not possible to satisfied all passengers with equally sounding SQ, my main concern will be just for the driver, and passenger, so front seats only. then like someone said above i can have different configurations when i have a passengers in the rear, passengers up front, or just driving my myself. since i care more about front seat passengers then i should look into getting a center stage, correct?

thanks for the pdf, i will read it all. and i need speakers anyway because when i bought my G37 one of the bose door speakers are blown, it sound horrible at certain frequencies. 

for my center stage should i just leave that bose speaker in, instead of upgrading it?


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

I might be off here, but I think the best way to learn is to FIRST get a measured nutral reading with a rta program and mic. Then you can actually learn something besides getting stuck in a swamp of unknowns.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

All the folks offering advice and the OP, would do well to understand that there is a big difference between good sound and sounds good to my ears. For the former you don't need rears, but processing is a must. For the later, you don't need a processor and anything goes.

With a front stage, processing and the right tune, the passengers at the back won't be lacking for anything. If you feel like you're missing something without rears, then work on the tune, and on the original topic, I would take Scans over Focals every day of the week.


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## Phil Indeblanc (May 27, 2015)

sqnut said:


> With a front stage, processing and the right tune, the passengers at the back won't be lacking for anything. If you feel like you're missing something without rears, then work on the tune.


I wasn't sure of this until recently, and it simply is the right way to go and put your energy towards. Even sitting in the rear things sound great with a proper front tune setup.

So in my case I had a tune made for just the front. Another tune that includes the rears made little sense. So now I just use the main tune. 
I did keep one for just the kids so I can cancel front sound, and Gummy Bear or "What the Fox Says" can play without me hearing it up front.

But for some reason, as mentioned in a post, having just bass, maybe 65hz and below in the rear doors might be something, as it would act as your sub, which is in the rear anyway. Cut the mids highs and just leav bass. this I think might work? I have not tried yet, but I might make a preset with such a tune.


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## 1996blackmax (Aug 29, 2007)

Rear speakers do come in handy with the kids. I'll put the sound towards the rear and have a normal conversation up front .


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sqnut said:


> All the folks offering advice and the OP, would do well to understand that there is a big difference between good sound and sounds good to my ears. For the former you don't need rears, but processing is a must. For the later, you don't need a processor and anything goes.
> 
> With a front stage, processing and the right tune, the passengers at the back won't be lacking for anything. If you feel like you're missing something without rears, then work on the tune, and on the original topic, I would take Scans over Focals every day of the week.


As my kids would tell me,you're tones changed. Didn't mean to slam anyone, just wanted to highlight a few facts that are facts, and maybe got carried away. 



Phil Indeblanc said:


> But for some reason, as mentioned in a post, having just bass, maybe 65hz and below in the rear doors might be something, as it would act as your sub, which is in the rear anyway. Cut the mids highs and just leav bass. this I think might work? I have not tried yet, but I might make a preset with such a tune.


I've run powered fronts and 6x9 rears and thought it sounded amazing. Then I ditched the rears and added a sub and the p-880 and it took me about six months to begin to understand what sq means. You can't have sq if you're running full range rears, no matter how much processing you have at hand. So people discussing the best sound quality with rears is a bit of an oxymoron.

Using rears bandpassed ~50-300hz and suitably (~18-25m/s) time delayed, can help in increasing perception of width in _recordings done in a big room_. Most recordings are in a small room and here the difference is nominal. But even when it gives you the perception of extra width if you listen and see closely, it kind of curves in at the extremes, somewhat like your curved TV that seemingly give you a wider perspective. Bottom line that extra width is not accurate, but if it tickles your fancy, this is a good use of rears.

The 6x9's in the rear hat rack stayed installed for about 3 years after I stopped using them. The sound got much better as I learned to tune, but the low end of the bass had some clarity issues. No matter how much I tuned or where I placed the sub in the boot, the low end continued to be a bit fuzzy and lacked clarity. As a last resort I removed the rears and with a bit of TA, that clarity snapped into place. That was the last sting in the tail of the rears.

A decent 6.5 up front shouldn't have problems doing 65. 90% of the time that 6.5's seem weak in the 60-80 zone is because of timing issues between L&R. You'r mid bass in the front door doen't need help from the rears at 65.



1996blackmax said:


> Rear speakers do come in handy with the kids. I'll put the sound towards the rear and have a normal conversation up front .


Now that's another good use of rears .


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## Alrojoca (Oct 5, 2012)

True, Sadly, learning how to listen may take time or a few different good systems to know what to look for. 
It's to hard to tune without knowing what to tune for. At the same time if we are happy with our system now, maybe there is no need to listen to other systems or go to the next level, if we need we lack something, we may need tuning. 

It is a good thing to listen to SQ top podium sound, learn or know why based on what we hear, if we can't tell why, that's a problem, an effort can be made to learn why. It may not help or change our perception of good sound or it may take time.

Once you have a guide or benchmark, you can tune for that goal. Then you have the limitations of driver's placements to get there, all you can do is work with what you have, unless you are willing to put 5"drivers on your dash pointing at you, and a sub taking leg room in the front passenger area, since that will make the tuning easier and that is how the different levels and categories are set for a better listening experience in SQ competition. 

Then the tuning skills, learning that can be hard, that will take more time.


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