# Lower the better?



## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

I was wondering now that I have a set of aluminum veritas horns and both adapters (1" and 1.4-1.5")...
Would it be worth the test of buying a set of 1.4" drivers that play lower?
I believe Veritas claimed 550hz with their horns and the Radian driver I was looking at online claims 500hz at 24 slope...(and fairly flat to over 18k hz)
So 550-600 hz I would try would be quite a bit lower than the ID's I am running..

Would it be worth doing? Has anyone tried this or similar?... My imagination says it will be amazing!!...

But its a 500.00 test... And install time with a huge horn driver...


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

None of the large format drivers will do well above 10Khz even the best Radian with Beryllium diaphragms dont go to 16Khz. 

From my memory of measurements the Veritas doesnt perform as well as the Full size ES horns below 1 Khz, its been many years though. I do know the ES has a larger horn mouth and flare rae and nouth size are the primary determining factors. Prety sure if you push it to 500Hz crossover it will sound edgy and forward no matte how its tuned.

I started with a 1.4" Radian driver and when I went to a 1" driver it was a noticeable improvement.


----------



## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

Ok Thanks Eric
Good to know.... 
I will hold off on that experiment till another time. First I suppose I need to commit to my manual tuning Rane RPM and see where I get... I have the MS8 right now (with your Neo / Full bodies) and I am really tired of the shallow in your face stage it seems to hold the horns to. I really want the image to push away some...
I guess its time to step up and learn to do my own tuning.


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Some day....one of us needs to do a full dash rebuild/firewall cut to accommodate a 2" or 3" exit horn. Maybe a mouth with 500sqin or something big.


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

nextproject said:


> Ok Thanks Eric
> Good to know....
> I will hold off on that experiment till another time. First I suppose I need to commit to my manual tuning Rane RPM and see where I get... I have the MS8 right now (with your Neo / Full bodies) and I am really tired of the shallow in your face stage it seems to hold the horns to. I really want the image to push away some...
> I guess its time to step up and learn to do my own tuning.


I am here for help and support with tuning on the forums or by email etc. 

I encourage you to test things but it wont mean much if you are not able to tune things correctly.


----------



## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

Eric Stevens said:


> I am here for help and support with tuning on the forums or by email etc.
> 
> I encourage you to test things but it wont mean much if you are not able to tune things correctly.


Sounds great!... I see Matt occasionally... I really would like to stop by the shop one weekday and meet you in person.... We have spoken on the phone in the past.
I have read lots in general and probably all of your tuning tils and advice...
Matt keeps giving me little pieces when I see him...
I think its time to grow a pair and go for it...


----------



## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

oabeieo said:


> Some day....one of us needs to do a full dash rebuild/firewall cut to accommodate a 2" or 3" exit horn. Maybe a mouth with 500sqin or something big.


Some day!!


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I don't think that I've ever seen a 3" exit driver. The Community M4 is a 4" exit driver (but not very good for high end audio) and Martin Sound has a 5.5" exit custom driver.


----------



## nextproject (Oct 17, 2010)

2-5"!?!...
Couldn't imagine!....
I thought my 1.4/1.5 adapter was a monster compared to my 1"


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I think if I were to do something like that with large format drivers without getting all crazy with field coils and exotic Japanese drivers, I would look at the B&C DCM50 and Community M200A. And can't forget the daddy to them all- the JBL 2440 and 2441s.


----------



## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

I thought about installing larger motors in my car but Eric encouraged me to stick with the Ultra's. Once I had cut the firewall I could have fit damn near anything but with Eric's guidance I installed the Ultra's. I was told that the big motors just don't play high enough... When Eric talks about horns I listen


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

thehatedguy said:


> I think if I were to do something like that with large format drivers without getting all crazy with field coils and exotic Japanese drivers, I would look at the B&C DCM50 and Community M200A. And can't forget the daddy to them all- the JBL 2440 and 2441s.


Oh no. Now I have a model number. F#%k

I hope there expensive. 



lsm said:


> I thought about installing larger motors in my car but Eric encouraged me to stick with the Ultra's. Once I had cut the firewall I could have fit damn near anything but with Eric's guidance I installed the Ultra's. I was told that the big motors just don't play high enough... When Eric talks about horns I listen


Come on now, 2 sets of horns  

One for the midrange one for the HF 

If someone could do a full dash rebuild and make the entire dash a throat , heck I'm sure there would be a way to do a coax with a HF driver in there also... No??

It might negate the whole reasoning to get a horn down to 200hz and not have a plethora of phase issues. But, maybe it wouldn't . Never know till someone tries.

I just need a Porsche or something with a mid engine to get it done, but dang it would be so so cool to see. Not that your build isn't awesome enough. Lol .


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Before I went with a compression driver down to 3-400, I might would get a nice cone midrange and horn load it. The horns would be much more shallow compared to a 2" exit horn.

Eric has had a hand in some complete dash builds like we are talking about. One of his partners in Image Dynamics back in the day had a Grand Prix that had a custom dash like we are talking about and IDW12s in the kicks for midbass. 

Femi Adegoke - 1992 Pontiac Grand Prix - 1997 AS&S


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

thehatedguy said:


> Before I went with a compression driver down to 3-400, I might would get a nice cone midrange and horn load it. The horns would be much more shallow compared to a 2" exit horn.
> 
> Eric has had a hand in some complete dash builds like we are talking about. One of his partners in Image Dynamics back in the day had a Grand Prix that had a custom dash like we are talking about and IDW12s in the kicks for midbass.
> 
> Femi Adegoke - 1992 Pontiac Grand Prix - 1997 AS&S


Oh my gosh I never seen that one!

That is freaking awesome oh my gosh I love that car I want to do that so bad that's like right up my alley , how did it sound? Was it awesome or not ? Could a regular set of horns do essentially the same thing.


----------



## Freudie2 (May 19, 2015)

oabeieo said:


> Oh my gosh I never seen that one!
> 
> That is freaking awesome oh my gosh I love that car I want to do that so bad that's like right up my alley , how did it sound? Was it awesome or not ? Could a regular set of horns do essentially the same thing.


Don't know what's worse...the LP amps, the wing, the ricer exhaust, or perhaps the dash. I KNOW, it's all about preference/etc, but that install is just too gawdy for words. The "old days" make me chuckle. Might have to go throw some vinyl graphic looking **** on the side of my truck in 10 different colors....


----------



## firebirdude (Dec 24, 2009)

Freudie2 said:


> Don't know what's worse...the LP amps, the wing, the ricer exhaust, or perhaps the dash. I KNOW, it's all about preference/etc, but that install is just too gawdy for words. The "old days" make me chuckle. Might have to go throw some vinyl graphic looking **** on the side of my truck in 10 different colors....


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

It had issues. All I know is what Eric has told me about it.

But given what we all collectively know today, chances are it could be made to be better.

Eric and Matt nicknamed me Femi when we were competing because I had a tendency to want to pursue some crazy stuff like he did...like 12" midbasses in the kicks.


----------



## Eric Stevens (Dec 29, 2007)

oabeieo said:


> Oh my gosh I never seen that one!
> 
> That is freaking awesome oh my gosh I love that car I want to do that so bad that's like right up my alley , how did it sound? Was it awesome or not ? Could a regular set of horns do essentially the same thing.


The sound didnt live up to expctations created visually. It was actually kind of disappointing.


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

oabeieo said:


> Some day....one of us needs to do a full dash rebuild/firewall cut to accommodate a 2" or 3" exit horn. Maybe a mouth with 500sqin or something big.


Instead of chopping up the car to fit a giant compression driver, make your own compression driver and design it so that it uses the windshield as a waveguide

The net effect is the same, but option 2 is cheaper and easier

You can build a compression driver in less than an hour


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

thehatedguy said:


> It had issues. All I know is what Eric has told me about it.
> 
> But given what we all collectively know today, chances are it could be made to be better.
> 
> Eric and Matt nicknamed me Femi when we were competing because I had a tendency to want to pursue some crazy stuff like he did...like 12" midbasses in the kicks.


Your femi! 

Whaaaaaaaaaatttttt 
My bud Wayne Watkins talked about you ( all good of course )

Do you know Mario Gino also ?


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Eric Stevens said:


> The sound didnt live up to expctations created visually. It was actually kind of disappointing.


Oh that's too bad. I envision my next car being similar. 


Maybe re think it now. Ugh


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

Patrick Bateman said:


> Instead of chopping up the car to fit a giant compression driver, make your own compression driver and design it so that it uses the windshield as a waveguide
> 
> The net effect is the same, but option 2 is cheaper and easier
> 
> You can build a compression driver in less than an hour


I've thought about that too , like the 4Runner , but a on axis version using the windshield as half the horn, and a custom dash as the other half . 

But to do a horn, i wouldn't be able to control the pattern with a windshield ...

And I really really prefer horns over wave guides (in my limited experience with waveguides)


----------



## Freudie2 (May 19, 2015)

firebirdude said:


>


Pimp-a-licious!

Let me guess...Brazil?


----------



## Patrick Bateman (Sep 11, 2006)

oabeieo said:


> I've thought about that too , like the 4Runner , but a on axis version using the windshield as half the horn, and a custom dash as the other half .
> 
> But to do a horn, i wouldn't be able to control the pattern with a windshield ...
> 
> And I really really prefer horns over wave guides (in my limited experience with waveguides)


True , horns sound different than waveguides


----------



## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> It had issues. All I know is what Eric has told me about it.
> 
> But given what we all collectively know today, chances are it could be made to be better.
> 
> Eric and Matt nicknamed me Femi when we were competing because I had a tendency to want to pursue some crazy stuff like he did...like 12" midbasses in the kicks.


I love the crazy **** as much as you. I've been a forum lurker for decades now and I recently did something you've recommend for years and installed some 7" Audax mids. I was shocked at just how easily they blended with my Mylar CD2's. It's like they were meant to be together. Harry and Sally don't have anything on that combo!


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Eric and Matt nick named me Femi because I was always wanting to do something like he used to want to do.

I do know Wayne...helluva nice guy. Met him a number of years a go when we judged SBN together. One bad mofo installer too.



oabeieo said:


> Your femi!
> 
> Whaaaaaaaaaatttttt
> My bud Wayne Watkins talked about you ( all good of course )
> ...


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I tell you...I thought the same thing when I had that same combo. It was just very magical and musical. Effortless.



LumbermanSVO said:


> I love the crazy **** as much as you. I've been a forum lurker for decades now and I recently did something you've recommend for years and installed some 7" Audax mids. I was shocked at just how easily they blended with my Mylar CD2's. It's like they were meant to be together. Harry and Sally don't have anything on that combo!


----------



## oabeieo (Feb 22, 2015)

LumbermanSVO said:


> I love the crazy **** as much as you. I've been a forum lurker for decades now and I recently did something you've recommend for years and installed some 7" Audax mids. I was shocked at just how easily they blended with my Mylar CD2's. It's like they were meant to be together. Harry and Sally don't have anything on that combo!


The audax he reccomended me too and it's the only speaker that I have kept in the system and have no plans to remove it . 

Such a amazing driver. I'll never get rid of mine, even tho a few weeks back I was thinking about it , but it was just the stupid pods I had them in were ringing.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

I think it's cool that you guys found the same magic with them that I did.


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Western Electric 555 Field Coil Horn Driver in Excellent Condition | eBay

If we are dreaming...just have to find a mate for it. On the right horn they'll do 100 to about 7k...in a way that hasn't been recreated since the 30s. Hopefully I can get to hear some one day and eat some brisket later on (hint). Some say these are the pinnacle of audio reproduction.


----------



## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> Western Electric 555 Field Coil Horn Driver in Excellent Condition | eBay
> 
> If we are dreaming...just have to find a mate for it. On the right horn they'll do 100 to about 7k...in a way that hasn't been recreated since the 30s. Hopefully I can get to hear some one day and eat some brisket later on (hint). Some say these are the pinnacle of audio reproduction.


Jesus... I would have passed that thing up at a Flea Market :surprised:


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

That is the king dingaling of all compression drivers. Back in the day (the 1930s), WE used to do demos where they would have their speakers on stage and an orchestra playing. Then they would fade each in and out to have the audience to pick which were playing, and not too many people could pick the differences. 

I am surprised this one hasn't already gone to China or Japan...which is where most of these have gone since being taken out of movie theatres here in the states.


----------



## lsm (Mar 11, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> That is the king dingaling of all compression drivers. Back in the day (the 1930s), WE used to do demos where they would have their speakers on stage and an orchestra playing. Then they would fade each in and out to have the audience to pick which were playing, and not too many people could pick the differences.


What is so special about it? I've never even seen one until now...


----------



## thehatedguy (May 4, 2007)

Realism.

I haven't heard any yet, but hope to in the near future. Can let you know after that.


----------



## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

thehatedguy said:


> I think it's cool that you guys found the same magic with them that I did.


I've seen you post about this setup for a long time, but I always figured it'd take more work to get them to blend with the horns. Instead, I've barely done any tuning at all. They just work so damn well together, it's amazing. I can't wait to hear what happens when I actually have time to tune the system!


----------

