# Center channel: Use it or lose it?



## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

My vehicle has a center channel in the dash. Is there any benefit from using it? If you were upgrading your entire system, would you use it or lose it?


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## Huckleberry Sound (Jan 17, 2009)

It would boil down to taste, flavor and the flexibility of your system. O yea, expense to.

I would try to make my system sound it best before the introduction of a center channel. It was have to be the last resort. Most systems that compete today don't use them.

So at the end of the day, its totally up to you.


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

Thank you kindly!


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

If you have the processing (not just any DSP - one designed to work with a center channel), I think it is worth considering. If you do not have the processing, I would not mess with a center channel.


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## Carlton8000 (Feb 5, 2011)

A well executed system will make people think you have a center channel and not actually have to utilize it. So its kind of nice having what appears to be a center channel in your dash.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

Kenneth you're fortunate you have a center channel spot. To do a test.... find a 2-inch thick old school yellow pages phone book. Turn on your stereo to a normal or slightly louder listening level, not the whisper/social/passenger mode. Place/remove the phone book over the existing center speaker and listen for the difference, if any. Then you decide which one you like! (Other than music, should try with some tests discs/tracks/tones too.)


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

Carlton8000 said:


> A well executed system will make people think you have a center channel and not actually have to utilize it. So its kind of nice having what appears to be a center channel in your dash.


This.

It is so much fun to have people ask "what speaker size is behind the center grill?" when midbass is thumping and vocals are high and tight...

I personally do NOT like center channel sound, it just muddies up the focus.


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## ZAKOH (Nov 26, 2010)

The primary benefit of the center channel is that a properly tuned audio system can provide a truly centered audio stage to both the driver and the passenger at the same time. Using time alignment and only right-left speaker positions you could accomplish the same goal only for one seat, either driver or passenger.


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## Lorin (May 5, 2011)

If running an MS8, a center channel can improve results a fair bit. I ran a large center (6.5 morel coax) in mine, and it helped a bunch. Especially when I was running smaller, 3 inch drivers in the pillars. It helped bring more of the vocals and lower frequencies up, and helped tie in the smaller drivers. I have since gone with larger drivers in the pillars, and no longer need the center.


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## tbomb (Nov 28, 2007)

I say definitely take advantage of having it. The benefit has been stated already (defined center for all seats) But you have to have the proper processing. (MS8)


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## rton20s (Feb 14, 2011)

FTFY ...



tbomb said:


> I say definitely take advantage of having it. The benefit has been stated already (defined center for all seats) But you have to have the proper processing. (PXA-H800)


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## stevemk07 (Jan 3, 2012)

Good question. I have been wondering the same thing. Think I will try upgrading the centre speaker, feeding it the same power as the left and right and see what the stock processing will accomplish with a good driver, power, and install. I like the idea of having good sound for all seats.


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## tbomb (Nov 28, 2007)

rton20s said:


> FTFY ...


Nice


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to post their findings and considerations to be had. I do not like the fact that having a center channel limits your choices of DSPs. And the consensus seems to be that with high end tweeters and mids in the pillars, there is no need for a center channel. Even though I am repelled with the looks of of mids and highs in the pillars, I will go that way in my project. It would be absolutely pointless for me to buy the best speakers if I don't give way to function over form. 

This really helped answer a lot of questions for me and some of the ideas, like with the phone book, are stellar. Really can't thank you guys enough.


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## rxonmymind (Sep 7, 2010)

Glad you got some real good advice here. Bunch of audio nuts that are willing to help here. 
As to your question I do have a center channel in my Lexus M&L system and it works wonderfully. I don't have one in my Lexus SUV and yet the sound from the stock speakers seem to come from the center. Pioneer did a great job of staging and dialing in the speakers. (I still want new ones So meh, it depends on HOW you tune it with the DSP. Good luck!


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## tbomb (Nov 28, 2007)

Kenneth M said:


> I want to thank everyone who has taken the time to post their findings and considerations to be had. I do not like the fact that having a center channel limits your choices of DSPs. And the consensus seems to be that with high end tweeters and mids in the pillars, there is no need for a center channel. Even though I am repelled with the looks of of mids and highs in the pillars, I will go that way in my project. It would be absolutely pointless for me to buy the best speakers if I don't give way to function over form.
> 
> This really helped answer a lot of questions for me and some of the ideas, like with the phone book, are stellar. Really can't thank you guys enough.


i would challenge you on the idea that pillars are the only way to maximize your equipment. It has been debated to death. But i would encourage you to look into it more from posts by people who know a thing or two and come up with your on conclusion. It might be best in your car. But....search what Andy W or Patrick Bateman and others have to say about it. I have noticed in the vast majority of Bing's installs , he uses the pillars for at least tweeters. i dont know if this is more customer demand, or just his thing, but i would def research more. And the pillar install has nothing to do with the benefit of center, unless you are solely looking at stage height. While you are limited on choice of processors, i dont see this as a bad thing, unless you are trying to stick to a certain brand. 

BTW, what is the vehicle in question?


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

One day I'd like to try a very small mid in the sails highpassed around 600Hz. Then a small tweeter (1/2"-2/3") in the pillars at eye level playing where the mid starts to beam.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

There are usually a couple of things to guess whether we need a center channel or otherwise. Here's just my quick summary..

- A. if the vehicle is small.. usually a no.

- B. if the vehicle/dash is wide/large... usually a yes. Sound follows the laws of physics, and the loudness/intensity follows the inverse square law. The further away from the speaker it's intensity is much less (square root of a relative or reference distance). We usually pick the distance from the driver to the nearest door/pillar speaker as reference. The center spot to the driver may be a larger distance in a wide dash and so it's less intense from/around there.

- P. If we sit far away from the front speakers, we probably don't need it. Some examples are speakers in the kick panels, horns under the dash, or a Toyota Prius or other vehicles where dash speakers are far away out front in the corners of the windshield like the speakers are sitting on the hood and not inside the vehicle. What it is here... is the speaker path/length to the listener is more optimal. (At home it's usually like this too.)

- Q. If we sit close to any side speaker, we may need it.

- X. If the front left and right speakers are facing each other, some sound will bounce/reflect off the windshield or dash... and so the center will be more apparent, somewhat strong or at least not a sound-hole there. The left and right will mix itself there. Sometimes the sound smears itself in there but don't know how to tell the difference. Some people do not like or want this speaker arrangement because the far-left and far-right sound gets dragged inward the dash and is not at the pillar/door/wall anymore. Some of us have no choice because that's where they put the speakers lol and we just live with it.

- Y. If the front left and right side speakers are facing the rear/trunk, there'll be a hole in the middle since the sound can't fill/bounce itself here. However the passenger sitting further away in the back (related to item P) will say it sounds perfect lol!! 

Anyways for everybody's vehicle, it's different. Sometimes we have a combination of A and X... so we can get away without a center channel. If it's P by itself we probably won't need it. If we have B, Q and Y we just about will need it unless we can't dig a hole in the dash or stuff it into the center air vents. It's also difficult to move the driver's seat to the center of the vehicle unless we're an extreme mod dude and that's a show car. So.. for most normal people, we have a combination of one or the other above (may be more items that I didn't list)... so ... just gotta test it out, add/remove speakers, shift speakers to other locations, point/re-point speakers all week and all year DIYMA-style!!

(edit: I probably should mention the center channel/speaker processing via a DSP or other method should not be a straight left + right mix. The "processor" also has to deduct the far-left and far-right material so that it does not drag the outside/edge stuff towards the middle. The way to test is just use the usual IASCA 7-snare/drum or equivalent test track. The #1 and #7 beats has to be at the related pillar/wall and not inwards on the dash. The center #4 beat has to be strong and distinct and has the same loudness/intensity as the #1 and #7 beats (importantly not smeared or diffused; just do a center on/off test here to check the difference). (Some people can make the #1 and #7 sound from outside the vehicle; different tricks/methods but that's already off topic lol)


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

subbed......


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

Really appreciate the advice fellas!! 

'14 Ford Raptor

Driver position is roughly 32" from left pillar and 53" from right pillar.


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## Kenneth M (Oct 14, 2014)

Also, I will be running 2 Illusion c12xl's forward facing in box under rear passenger seat. 

Carbon C12 XL | Illusion Audio

The tweeters for the pillars are currently being made for me: ZR Saturns

ZR Speaker Lab - ZR Saturn Overview

And also the mid-bass's for the doors are being made for me, the ZR, no1's

ZR Speaker Lab - ZR N°1 Overview

The mid-range selections will be based on placement after listening to everyone's suggestions.


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## ndm (Jul 5, 2007)

As far as needing a center capable processor is concerned...I have one probable way to get around this. 

My srt jeep has the harmon kardon system with a center. What I plan to do is run the factory radio output from the center into one channel on my 6to8v8. The factory radio should in theory sort out the processing as it did prior to the aftermarket 6 to8 dsp. If anything...I can simply split 1 rca to the sub amp and the other to the center amp.

The only downside that I can think of is lower voltage to my sub rca's. That should be fine though since the 6to8v8 has 8 volt output capabilities.

Someone please check my logic


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

ndm said:


> As far as needing a center capable processor is concerned...I have one probable way to get around this.
> 
> My srt jeep has the harmon kardon system with a center. What I plan to do is run the factory radio output from the center into one channel on my 6to8v8. The factory radio should in theory sort out the processing as it did prior to the aftermarket 6 to8 dsp. If anything...I can simply split 1 rca to the sub amp and the other to the center amp.
> 
> ...


If you want to use the processing in the OE head you'll need a processor that has individual channel inputs and processing. Like a mini dsp 8x8 (I think that's what its called). Then you can de-EQ the factory equalization and T/A and apply your own. That'll leave the multi-channel signal in place and adapt it to the new 'system'.

I was playing around yesterday with my AV receiver in PLII mode. Using only a left and right setup and setting the center channel to on so that the center information is essentially muted. It's amazing just how little comes out of the center with music. That tells me, contrary to what I used to believe based on what I've read, that the center doesn't need to have as much dynamic potential as the L/R combined. Add to that the boost a typical center gets when loaded with the front windshield and you end up not having to go that big with a center. Unless you want to have a standard highpass on it of 80Hz, then a bigger one would be essential. 

Movies on the other hand are completely different and most of the content come out of the center and is not split to the L/R as much as music.


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## tbomb (Nov 28, 2007)

t3sn4f2 said:


> .
> 
> I was playing around yesterday with my AV receiver in PLII mode. Using only a left and right setup and setting the center channel to on so that the center information is essentially muted. It's amazing just how little comes out of the center with music. That tells me, contrary to what I used to believe based on what I've read, that the center doesn't need to have as much dynamic potential as the L/R combined. Add to that the boost a typical center gets when loaded with the front windshield and you end up not having to go that big with a center. Unless you want to have a standard highpass on it of 80Hz, then a bigger one would be essential.
> 
> Movies on the other hand are completely different and most of the content come out of the center and is not split to the L/R as much as music.


how do you know what you were missing if you had it disconnected? Were you toggling between PL and 2ch mode? Also, does youre receiver have separate PLII for movies and music or just a general PLII?

I find a very distinct difference in my system between 2 ch and dolby.


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## tbomb (Nov 28, 2007)

Based on the size of your a-pillars i feel like you may lose some width using that location. I suggest mounting a small mid in front of the door handle and tweeter in sail panel. Actually, it looks like the sail panel would be great for a 3" mid and maybe the tweeter just above or below it in that flat spot.


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## Ted J (Aug 15, 2006)

The big thing about center channels for me in what I have heard is it's not only the limiting of processors that comes into play but finding a processor that processes the center channel correctly as well.

Depending on what the processor thinks needs to go to the center channel comes into play for if it sends too much info you might lose some of the items that are suppose appear between center and the left and right.

I heard a Caddy years ago at Finals that I think had a P9 processor combo in it and he was running a center channel speaker and he had his left and right speakers up in the dash as well. He was really cool about demoing it for me and he shut off the center channel speaker and turned it back on and also shut off the left and right and then turned it back on. I didn't notice until he did that the the timbre of the drivers were different and then he informed me that he was running a matched set of left and right speakers but the center channel was a different brand of speaker. That timbre difference really helped for it made the center channel speaker sorta like, I dunno, really made the center more focused for I'm thinking the difference in timbre made it that way but he also had it tuned very nicely so it blended well. But if I had to guess he spent a lot of time tuning and trying different things to get that. Sometimes the K.I.S.S works but in this case his time was worth it for it turned out great.


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## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

tbomb said:


> ... I find a very distinct difference in my system between 2 ch and dolby.


Me too. I just tried it earlier at home.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

tbomb said:


> how do you know what you were missing if you had it disconnected? Were you toggling between PL and 2ch mode? Also, does youre receiver have separate PLII for movies and music or just a general PLII?
> 
> I find a very distinct difference in my system between 2 ch and dolby.


Yes, toggling between Stereo and PLII, Neo:6 as well. I used a Denon AVR-3312Ci that has presets for both movies and music.


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## t3sn4f2 (Jan 3, 2007)

tbomb said:


> I find a very distinct difference in my system between 2 ch and dolby.


Difference with the center playing as well, versus stereo mode? Or the way I tested it. And what do you mean by difference? Output or general sound. Because for output I don't think its adding any more then a few dBs worth, but the should put cohesiveness through the roof. If not it would not work.

Edit: Just tried it again with some more material and yeah it seems much more subdued with PLII on and no center. Much more than I thought. So yeah it add a lot, especially in centered vocals. But even so, I still think that in a car with the windshield loading, closer proximity than the right, and reflected stronger on axis response.....a center won't need more dynamic range potential than the left or right independently. IOW the center doesn't need to be bigger than the L/R to keep up. But as I said before it may help on the low end.


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