# Good Chinese Speaker Manufacturers on Alibaba?



## overwatchanticheat (Feb 2, 2021)

So, I've been recently browsing Alibaba to save money on things, but as anyone who has ever used Alibaba knows, it's impossible to know the quality of the products listed.

I'm sure some of the best speakers on Crutchfield are made in China and are probably listed on Alibaba, but which ones? 

Does anyone have any information regarding good speaker manufacturers on alibaba? What about DSPs?

Considering most of the stuff we buy comes from China, with the right knowledge we could save a fortune.

On a related note: I found the manufacturer for some external car parts on alibaba, as in the same one that makes the parts listed on the popular websites and I managed to get a nice wing for my wrx, 199 for the part 195 for shipping for the same part that costs 1200 on all the websites. I plan on replacing on my external car parts with carbon fiber parts this way.

So, does anyone know anything on this subject?


----------



## TommyDS (May 27, 2012)

Dongguan Erisson Acoustics Technology Co., Ltd. - Car Component Speaker, Car Coaxial Speaker - producing for many well know brand
Lundegaard (Foshan) Audio Technology Co., Limited - Car Audio, Car Speaker - waiting for samples of their 3way speakers
https://sxaudio.en.alibaba.com/?spm=a2700.9114905.0.0.gjIgDf - have also the same layout as SI amps, but wont sell it to you due to signed contracts


----------



## UberPlant (Feb 27, 2015)

Some look like players, but you look closer and it doesn’t add up.


----------



## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

TommyDS said:


> Dongguan Erisson Acoustics Technology Co., Ltd. - Car Component Speaker, Car Coaxial Speaker - producing for many well know brand
> Lundegaard (Foshan) Audio Technology Co., Limited - Car Audio, Car Speaker - waiting for samples of their 3way speakers
> Guangzhou Shengxin Electronics Co., Ltd. - have also the same layout as SI amps, but wont sell it to you due to signed contracts


I ll be honest, I dont quite get how Alibaba works. I was always under the impression it was just cheap stuff. Are you saying that these are basically the build house for other well known speakers and they are just selling them unbranded cheap on the site? 

Just at a casual glance I saw what looks like the JBL bluetooth speaker we just bought for our son. Looks to be the same, same colors, same everything, just missing the JBL logo, which it looks to have the spot for.


----------



## FAUEE (Jul 22, 2010)

That's how some of alibabe works. A lot of it also works where they sell knockoffs of name brand products that look the same, but are not at all the same in function. 

I don't think you're going to get any good sounding speakers for super cheap on alibaba. While most of the boutique drivers are made in build houses in China, the Chinese typically copy more well known products, not low volume stuff most won't recognize.


----------



## TommyDS (May 27, 2012)

Jroo said:


> I ll be honest, I dont quite get how Alibaba works. I was always under the impression it was just cheap stuff. Are you saying that these are basically the build house for other well known speakers and they are just selling them unbranded cheap on the site?
> 
> Just at a casual glance I saw what looks like the JBL bluetooth speaker we just bought for our son. Looks to be the same, same colors, same everything, just missing the JBL logo, which it looks to have the spot for.


Dongguan is a build house for many brands known in Europe or US for speakers. Shengxin Electronics same for amps - Alibaba is more a B2B platform, it's not really a B2C where you can purchase speakers/amps like in a daily online webshops (for this, the Aliexpres is more convenient). You have to order MOQ that are 300-500 or 1 000 pieces. According to my knowledge , in a car audio it is usual that established brands have to work with multiple 4 or 5 of EXW price of a buildhouse to cover warranty issues, transport, import duties, wholesale channel and in case of Europe also VAT tax , so you cannot compare the chinese price with the selling price car audio brands are charging fo their products ...


----------



## Ssopus (Dec 22, 2020)

Haven’t checked out speakers on there but looked at a set of power steps for the truck...steps were $550 and shipping was $650. Lol. Shipping cost is getting out of hand just about everywhere.


----------



## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

@Ssopus if its HST code falls into a tariff block, the cost will go even higher!


----------



## Ssopus (Dec 22, 2020)

diy.phil said:


> @Ssopus if its HST code falls into a tariff block, the cost will go even higher!


Yeah I didn’t even think about that...and even with little to no issues exactly how long before you took delivery? “It would have to be a no from me dogg” 😁


----------



## LBaudio (Jan 9, 2009)

buying cheap doesnt always turn out to be cheap in the end. You are buying a cat in the sack for a cheap price. Ask yourself what is going on with service and Guarantee..... most probably you wont send mercandice back to china when it fails...


----------



## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

I’ve pondered the same thing browsing Ali express and Ali baba. Some items could be had for cheap that are decent quality but the overwhelming majority of the items are cheap lower quality versions. Everything I’ve bought off of there was “meh” quality at best with the exception of stuff from David melo audio he sells the Alpine vifa tweeters and other vifa/peerless items... but yeah there’s fake focal, fake balm audio, fake alpine. The dsps ive researched and the only ones worth a damn are a few hundred bucks or more and at that point just buy a Dayton or MiniDSP... 

With that being said I’m still intrigued by getting gems for cheap I have a few items coming from AliExpress right now tweeters and car accessoreies... plus I’m in contact with a supplier about getting some other items but I know damn well it’s a gamble that will only pay off one out of ten times where I’m happy... LOL


----------



## MythosDreamLab (Nov 28, 2020)

I prefer speakers made in France & Italy...

You want to save money?

Buy used...


----------



## overwatchanticheat (Feb 2, 2021)

to answer one posters question, Alibaba allows you to communicate directly with Manufacturers, most of which are in China. It’s generally a b2b enterprise and often times you will see there’s a purchase minimum of 50-500 pieces but there’s also plenty of items with a 1 piece min. You can filter products that way, which makes the process easier. Ali express is more b2c friendly but I’ve bought individual products from alibaba, so it is possible. I know some of the manufactures that list products on alibaba are the exact same that supply large companies with products, the problem is finding the right ones.

I know blindly buying cheap things on Alibaba is a risk that will pay off a very low % of the time. However, that is why I’m trying to find the good manufactures. We all know most of the products we buy come from China. I’m trying to form a group of people with personal experience of the good manufactures.

I think people assume China manufactures can only make cheap quality stuff but that’s less because of their capability and more because that’s what US companies request of them. These large corps want the largest margins possible so they order from the cheapest location possible and negotiate for the cheapest possible price. I think it would be possible to negotiate for a higher quality product if you were willing to pay more than the bottom level price. AudioFrog uses a Chinese manufacturer and they quickly becoming a favorite for high quality speakers, I’d love to figure out which manufacturer they use, could imagine getting some GB80’s for $100? 

alibaba is a weird site and feels very....unintuitive? I can’t think of the word but it’s not straight forward like Amazon where you’re just a couple clicks away from the product being at your doors later that day. There are some products where you can do that but most the time you need to chat with a rep of the manufacture.

I bet there’s plenty of Chinese manufactures that can make products just as good as anyone. China is the manufacturing capital of the world, I’m sure they have learned a thing or two on the process.

so if anyone is interested in being in rid group that tried to find the good manufactures, send me a pm and I’ll get around to it, not sure the medium I’ll use but it will probably be Discord.

People act like buying cheap items is a waste of time but 90% of the time that’s exactly what you’re doing by buying through a large US company, you’re just paying extra to go through a middleman. I think the risks of lack of warranty or service are worth it if you’re paying 10%-25% the name brand price


----------



## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

I would rather pay the 10%-25% premium for the name brand price difference and have the backing of the manufacturer plus all their research and development costs are worth a lot. I’m 110% sure Andy Wehmeyer would agree and his years of experience and expertise are what we are paying the premium for. Just about everything I buy direct from China has been a disappointing experience. Amazon and Facebook are notorious for selling inferior sub par Chinese junk of which I fell for too many times now because of price. 

Although the Chinese people themselves are good people, the Chinese Communist Party, which controls most of the Chinese people are not. The Xinjiang internment camps that have enslaved (slave labor) the Uighur people is a humanitarian issue I also don’t support and what they are doing to the people of Hong Kong is a disgrace. I think it’s time America wean themselves off of the cheap China labor addiction and seek other sources.


----------



## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

JCsAudio said:


> I would rather pay the 10%-25% premium for the name brand price difference and have the backing of the manufacturer plus all their research and development costs are worth a lot. I’m 110% sure Andy Wehmeyer would agree and his years of experience and expertise are what we are paying the premium for. Just about everything I buy direct from China has been a disappointing experience. Amazon and Facebook are notorious for selling inferior sub par Chinese junk of which I fell for too many times now because of price.
> 
> Although the Chinese people themselves are good people, the Chinese Communist Party, which controls most of the Chinese people are not. The Xinjiang internment camps that have enslaved (slave labor) the Uighur people is a humanitarian issue I also don’t support and what they are doing to the people of Hong Kong is a disgrace. I think it’s time America wean themselves off of the cheap China labor addiction and seek other sources.


Exactly, the Chinese people are amazing people, but their government is committing a mini hollocaust as we speak. Sterilizing women, re training camps, harvesting their organs of ones that disobey.

People, especially big sports organizations like the olympics, NBA, and international businesses need to step up and say something. People need to stop making the China topic about politics... its not its about human rights abuses its absolutely disgusting and its the people who look the other way.. for it be over sheer ignorance, political gain, or financial /business purposes... they will have to live with it on their conscious.


----------



## overwatchanticheat (Feb 2, 2021)

JCsAudio said:


> I would rather pay the 10%-25% premium for the name brand price difference and have the backing of the manufacturer plus all their research and development costs are worth a lot. I’m 110% sure Andy Wehmeyer would agree and his years of experience and expertise are what we are paying the premium for. Just about everything I buy direct from China has been a disappointing experience. Amazon and Facebook are notorious for selling inferior sub par Chinese junk of which I fell for too many times now because of price.
> 
> Although the Chinese people themselves are good people, the Chinese Communist Party, which controls most of the Chinese people are not. The Xinjiang internment camps that have enslaved (slave labor) the Uighur people is a humanitarian issue I also don’t support and what they are doing to the people of Hong Kong is a disgrace. I think it’s time America wean themselves off of the cheap China labor addiction and seek other sources.


Well sure if it was a 10% premium but it’s not 10-15% lol it’s a 100-200% premium minimum and probably increases as the price increases.

if I had to guess, AudioFrog probably pays around $100 for their $800 GB80.

tge things I’ve bought on Alibaba.com have cost 10% the retail

and I’m not talking about just buying the cheapest product possible, I’m talking about finding manufactures with the capability to create great speakers and negotiate with them to make the best possible product. That way you could theoretically get a GB80 quality speaker for the price AudioFrog pays.

thsts the whole point of forming a group to find the best manufactures, it’s not about gettting cheap speakers it’s about getting too of the line speakers at direct manufacture costand eliminate as many middlemen as possible

I don’t expect it to be an easy proces but it should be possible with a group of dedicated people willing to do the research


----------



## overwatchanticheat (Feb 2, 2021)

So after a couple hours on alibaba I think it clear who the best speaker manufacturer is. I believe it's Erikson and I also believe I found the speaker that Audiofrog's GB60 was based off. The numbers match up as well as the appearance. Anyway, I ordered a pair, I'll let you know how they sound in a few months.






High-Voice-Quality-Best-OEM-6


High-Voice-Quality-Best-OEM-6



www.alibaba.com


----------



## overwatchanticheat (Feb 2, 2021)

i believe these woofers are the same product, same rms, only 6" speaker ive ever seen,









Audiofrog G60S


G-Series 6-1/2" component speaker system




www.crutchfield.com










Source High Professional midbass 4ohm 50W 6inch midbass speaker car on m.alibaba.com


High Professional midbass 4ohm 50W 6inch midbass speaker car, You can get more details about from mobile site on m.alibaba.com




erisson-audio.en.alibaba.com





so yeah, i think the price warrants the risk, these high end speakers are marked up like crazy


----------



## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

overwatchanticheat said:


> Well sure if it was a 10% premium but it’s not 10-15% lol it’s a 100-200% premium minimum and probably increases as the price increases.
> 
> if I had to guess, AudioFrog probably pays around $100 for their $800 GB80.
> 
> ...


I have spent an extensive amount of time researching this topic. Some companies use Tier 2 suppliers in China - once production is finished for said Big car audio company (Let’s say alpine) the un-reputable build houses will sometimes continue production with the same tooling and process and sell the items on the grey market. An example is the Alpine SPR-10TW tweeters that retail for $150 but can be had for $20 on AliExpress or eBay and they are so similar it would be hard to argue they were not made in the same facility exactly to Alpines plans (which is alpines trade property and their design that’s being counterfeited) 

focal access series, easy to find on eBayfrom China for wayyy too cheap and they are exact replicas of the real ones...

needless to say focal and alpine are not happy that these people have continued production of their products or sold their trade secrets/designs to a company that is producing these and selling them on the gray market undercutting their business and possibly using inferior components...

Companies that use reputable Tier 1 suppliers in China do not have to worry about this as they care more about their main business and reputation rather than making a few bucks on the side.

I know I have heard Andy from Audiofrog say on here before that he uses a Tier 1 supplier to build his speakers in China because Audiofrog has extremely high standards that not any manufacturer in the USA would even agree to.


and last but not least... these are proprietary designs that people have spent years researching and developing.. in Andy’s case from Audiofrog he has spent his entire career learning the things he has implemented into the designs of said products... and while I’m sure there is a large markup on the products there are things you need to consider..

-neodymium (most of the GB series)fluctuates in price a lot and you cannot just increase the MSRP when the price of neo goes up..

-drivers with comparative distortion numbers can actually be significantly more expensive (think focal utopia, brax, Eton) so the GBs are actually a normal price for high end speakers..

-there needs to be markup for dealers to make money, usually you can negotiate a cheaper price with your dealer than MSRP.

-there has been years of development in these products.. these build houses in China are building them to the drawings and tolerances provided to them by the company... a klippel machine for testing drivers itself cost $100,000. Real development, not just ripping off other people’s designs takes months or years and a lot of money...

I would think of these things next time you think.. oh the cost of materials is this... and they charge this... there’s a lot more involved.


----------



## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

overwatchanticheat said:


> i believe these woofers are the same product, same rms, only 6" speaker ive ever seen,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


those ones on alibaba look most similar to these in my opinion.. cone looks nothing like the frogs... but the similarities stop at just the look of the cone.. LOL






XXM675 – XCELSUS AUDIO







www.xcelsus.com.au


----------



## overwatchanticheat (Feb 2, 2021)

I'm aware of how businesses work, and for 99% of the people not willing to do the research online, businesses can capitalize on that market, but if people in the USA are able to get high-quality products from China, I would also like to do that. Most of Erickson's speaker's list Neo magnets as well. if China is going to destroy our manufacturing with its low cost of goods, I'd at least like to benefit from that in some way and by just buying them from Big Car Audio, I'm getting all the negatives of global trade with only a small % of the benefit. 

I have a pair of AudioFrog G60s that I regret spending $350 dollars for as while the tweeters are nice, the woofers are less impressive than my $60 Kicker Co-axials and now that I've been browsing Alibaba for a few days, I'm certain the woofers are no different than the ones listed by Erickson on Ali, which cost between $10-$30 dollars. 


Audiofrog is a good company as the reviews indicate, but I doubt they have spent large sums of money on R&D as they are small. Next time I spend $350 on speakers, I'm going to try a large company's top of the line models like the MTX SS7 as they are able to spend the money on R&D and get their products for cheaper as they buy in large quantities and their margins are able to be smaller because of the large number of sales. 

That's assuming this dive into the world of cheap china speakers doesn't work out I'm sure there are others who feel the same way. If globalization is here to stay, I want to reap the rewards before it ultimately lowers our standard of living while raising the rest of the world until all is even.

Has anyone tried these Erickson speakers? They seem like one of the better speaker manufacturers on Alibaba


----------



## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

overwatchanticheat said:


> I'm aware of how businesses work, and for 99% of the people not willing to do the research online, businesses can capitalize on that market, but if people in the USA are able to get high-quality products from China, I would also like to do that. Most of Erickson's speaker's list Neo magnets as well. if China is going to destroy our manufacturing with its low cost of goods, I'd at least like to benefit from that in some way and by just buying them from Big Car Audio, I'm getting all the negatives of global trade with only a small % of the benefit.
> 
> I have a pair of AudioFrog G60s that I regret spending $350 dollars for as while the tweeters are nice, the woofers are less impressive than my $60 Kicker Co-axials and now that I've been browsing Alibaba for a few days, I'm certain the woofers are no different than the ones listed by Erickson on Ali, which cost between $10-$30 dollars.
> 
> ...



You have that backwards. Audiofrog does more R&D than 90% of other speaker manufacturers out there. You do have their lowest line, not the GB ones that are highly sought after but with that being said you probably need some tuning, they should sound way better than kickers..

The guy from Audiofrog, Andy literally starts with a target curve in a car (like a target frequency response) and designs the driver around that... Alot of other companies just rip off home designs or someone elses design and slap a car audio name on it..

The G60S are supposed to be drop in replacements for factory speakers... The GB60 has more excursion than any other 6.5" mid on the market for car audio use. The GB25 has an extremely flat, low distortion frequency response.. actually so does the GB60

You probably need some EQ and tuning.. i havent tried the lower lines of Audiofrog but the only reason i bought the GB series is I was disappointed time after time by cheaper speakers and their **** designs ripped off from the home audio industry. Audiofrog literally bespoke designs their drivers for car use and only car use... So i would guess you have a tuning problem.. I would get at least a Dayton DSP and a minidsp mic and use REW to do some EQ work


----------



## TommyDS (May 27, 2012)

overwatchanticheat said:


> So after a couple hours on alibaba I think it clear who the best speaker manufacturer is. I believe it's Erikson and I also believe I found the speaker that Audiofrog's GB60 was based off. The numbers match up as well as the appearance. Anyway, I ordered a pair, I'll let you know how they sound in a few months.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have some samples on way (3way mid-class and high-class component speakers) , will test them later, after reorganising my place, cause due to covid & lockdown have to test them at home ...


----------



## scooterfrog (Aug 28, 2019)

Just so you know... My company makes medical devices in China... and Japan and korea, and puerto rico and dominican republic and ireland, italy, germany, switzerland, the netherlands and the US.


----------



## TommyDS (May 27, 2012)

Samples from Dongguan Erisson arrived today, just unboxing them to make photos. Testing will take place in weeks. Build quality seems to be quite good 

1st sample - mid level 3way component set with paper membrane and silk tweeter









2nd sample - mid level 3way component speaker with better midbass and phase plug and titanium tweeter









3rd sample - high level 3way component set with carbon membrane and titanium tweeter


----------



## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Looks good!


----------



## Ssopus (Dec 22, 2020)

TommyDS said:


> Samples from Dongguan Erisson arrived today, just unboxing them to make photos. Testing will take place in weeks. Build quality seems to be quite good
> 
> 1st sample - mid level 3way component set with paper membrane and silk tweeter
> View attachment 298757
> ...


That’s the exact set I was going to order to test. Please let us Know how they preform.


----------



## overwatchanticheat (Feb 2, 2021)

Any updates? Mine are still in the mail but I ended up getting the ones that were like $85 before shipping and fees and kinda looked like the gb80s though I had wished I woulda got the carbon fiber ones but we shall see


----------



## FlyingEagle (Sep 22, 2017)

overwatchanticheat - there is no such thing as a GB80.

If you want cheap stuff from China, it will be a slippery slope of no warranty, you buy it you own it, no technical support, numbers listed for speaker specs will have nothing to back them up, etc etc.

You have installed a complete active GB component set, with proper vehicle treatments and tuning?

Which speakers are currently in your system, IE what vehicle and audio model setup from the factory and which speakers are switched and aftermarket?

My brain is trying to wrap around the main argument of, "my speakers X, don't sound right or should have cost less".

Most of the Audiofrog models I have see you list, are for one either incorrect or unsure of what you are asking of said component being installed into X location with a particular amplification setup - IE tuning in the factory system, designed to compliment or work with the original output of the factory speakers.

I can relate to wanting to speak in anecdote, but all business aside, there is nothing even comparable from what I have seen listed in this thread, to anything designed and produced for Audiofrog.

Please don't take this as me coming at you, it's just that fact is fact and the world of unknowns in China is huge. The product produced by Audiofrog is known and real and has the specs and customer service to back it up. You get more of what you pay for, every time - by design. 

If those other speakers work out for you or other users, that would be great as this forum is about DIY.

We are however, just going to have to take someone's word for it, should any of the aforementioned test products get put to use; unless they provide tuning and output stats for others to see and compare with.


----------



## TommyDS (May 27, 2012)

Due to Covid things are moving very slowly, so my little home studio for testing these speakers is very postponed. I am waiting also for other shipment from another chinese producer , should arrive next week. At the beginning of year there were also some amps comming (one is already well known from facebook threads 😂😂) from Teampie Electronics

Amp that was already discussed on FB (probably not produced directly by Teampie but Guangzhou Shengxin Electronics and sold by various traders - I have seen also the same amp from Shenzhen XHR car audio)










Smaller 4channel - i think the layout looks ok, curious how it will compare against standart audio brands amps


















And the bigger 4channel - should have good headroom for full active front system, but also for a pasive front system with a SQ sub


----------



## TommyDS (May 27, 2012)

Hi guys. Another shipment with speaker samples arrived today. These speakers look to be high quality - packaged in wooden box or small suitcase, white gloves, well built . Hope their sound will also correspond.

1st sample - looks to be kevlar membrane

























2nd sample - carbon cone and full aluminium tweeter housing


----------



## nfountain (Apr 20, 2011)

@TommyDS I'll have to admit, those are impressive looking. Following this thread.


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Good looking for sure...course the rubber will meet the road depending on how they measure and sound.

I AM curious if they are clones of any SPECIFIC speaker set or simply a mixed bag of high end speakers ... and gloves??


----------



## magmun (Feb 17, 2021)

I wonder if Uighurs slaves had a hand in making this stuff.


----------



## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

The yellow ones look like Focal K2 knockoffs. There’s got to be a catch or price to pay here by someone. Either the Uighurs are paying with slave labor, or something else is not right. I don’t see the incentive for the manufacturer to make these, and make them right assuming they have expenses like everyone else. The shipping alone should be $75-$100. 

We’ll see! I’m watching.


----------



## diy.phil (May 23, 2011)

On the map the Uyghur area is on the far far left side of china, in their northwest. That place is not an electronics manufacturing area. However it's more of a textile producing area (cloth and related raw materials). The raw material potentially may get sent to the east/southeast where the electronic factories are located. Clothing and shoes/sneakers factories in the east/southeast too. All of us in the free world need to support the uyghur people.


----------



## Ssopus (Dec 22, 2020)

This is the amp I was considering. The price isn’t bad but once you add shipping (not sure if there would be any customs duties involved) you’re looking at $320. What makes me hesitant is the surplus of great name brand quality used amps for sale under $1k within the cont US.... specifically on this site. Just my opinion, but I think I would rather roll the dice on a used Mosconi/tru/ etc at a little higher price. Curiosity still makes me want to see one of these measured by a diy member.


----------



## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)




----------



## Ssopus (Dec 22, 2020)

DaveG said:


>


Thanks Dave, exactly what I was looking for.


----------



## JMacLeod (Oct 14, 2020)

Ssopus said:


> This is the amp I was considering. The price isn’t bad but once you add shipping (not sure if there would be any customs duties involved) you’re looking at $320. What makes me hesitant is the surplus of great name brand quality used amps for sale under $1k within the cont US.... specifically on this site. Just my opinion, but I think I would rather roll the dice on a used Mosconi/tru/ etc at a little higher price. Curiosity still makes me want to see one of these measured by a diy member.
> 
> View attachment 300962
> 
> View attachment 300963


Did you receive it? How's it working? I don't have much money, and I can't afford to spend heaps on expensive stereo equipment. So, I've been looking at some enticingly tiny DAC/Amps on Aliexpress, and I wonder if anyone knows anything about them. I haven't had much luck googling them, sadly. I guess some of these will be available through Amazon, but I moved to Hong Kong, and the delivery is so damn expensive. Anyways, Aliexpress has the lowest shipping fees, and each order can be tracked thanks to the china post tracking number. So, if you have any suggestions, let me know.


----------



## Cougarhound (Jul 24, 2021)

TommyDS said:


> Due to Covid things are moving very slowly, so my little home studio for testing these speakers is very postponed. I am waiting also for other shipment from another chinese producer , should arrive next week. At the beginning of year there were also some amps comming (one is already well known from facebook threads 😂😂) from Teampie Electronics
> 
> Amp that was already discussed on FB (probably not produced directly by Teampie but Guangzhou Shengxin Electronics and sold by various traders - I have seen also the same amp from Shenzhen XHR car audio)
> 
> ...



Please tell us how they work. You are doing what we're supposed to be doing. Experimenting with different brands and trying things. 


Pay no attention to these clowns. Funny how they care so much about Uyghurs, but didn't seem to mind it when the Chinese were making $1 tube socks in sweatshops.


----------



## Ssopus (Dec 22, 2020)

JMacLeod said:


> Did you receive it? How's it working? I don't have much money, and I can't afford to spend heaps on expensive stereo equipment. So, I've been looking at some enticingly tiny DAC/Amps on Aliexpress, and I wonder if anyone knows anything about them. I haven't had much luck googling them, sadly. I guess some of these will be available through Amazon, but I moved to Hong Kong, and the delivery is so damn expensive. Anyways, Aliexpress has the lowest shipping fees, and each order can be tracked thanks to the china post tracking number. So, if you have any suggestions, let me know.


I didn’t buy it. Too many decent amps under $700 on here to possibly just throw my money away on a dice roll. If you’re looking for a budget friendly amp check out Toro. I personally don’t own any of their products but have listened to a couple (haven’t seen bench results) and nice bang for your buck.


----------



## opiyana (Aug 1, 2021)

overwatchanticheat said:


> So, I've been recently browsing Alibaba to save money on things, but as anyone who has ever used Alibaba knows, it's impossible to know the quality of the products listed.
> 
> I'm sure some of the best speakers on Crutchfield are made in China and are probably listed on Alibaba, but which ones?
> 
> ...


I also want to know.


----------



## Juka007 (Aug 5, 2021)

Ssopus said:


> I didn’t buy it. Too many decent amps under $700 on here to possibly just throw my money away on a dice roll. If you’re looking for a budget friendly amp check out Toro. I personally don’t own any of their products but have listened to a couple (haven’t seen bench results) and nice bang for your buck.


I've been running a Toro R5 (1600w) on two of their Fierce12 subs (800w each) for right at a year now, and I absolutely love them. I punished them things on crap electrical for the first three months and they took all the abuse in stride. Plenty of ass to get down when you want, but if you turn them down to blend with the rest of your system, they really sounds surprisingly good. The subs are power hungry though, I feel like they want more, which is exactly what led me to this thread. I'm thinking really really hard about picking up a the teampie 4000.1 to see what it can do. I'm just having trouble bringing myself to drop that kind of money on something with no kind of guarantee or support what so ever...


----------



## deedaman1 (Oct 19, 2021)

overwatchanticheat said:


> to answer one posters question, Alibaba allows you to communicate directly with Manufacturers, most of which are in China. It’s generally a b2b enterprise and often times you will see there’s a purchase minimum of 50-500 pieces but there’s also plenty of items with a 1 piece min. You can filter products that way, which makes the process easier. Ali express is more b2c friendly but I’ve bought individual products from alibaba, so it is possible. I know some of the manufactures that list products on alibaba are the exact same that supply large companies with products, the problem is finding the right ones.
> 
> I know blindly buying cheap things on Alibaba is a risk that will pay off a very low % of the time. However, that is why I’m trying to find the good manufactures. We all know most of the products we buy come from China. I’m trying to form a group of people with personal experience of the good manufactures.
> 
> ...


I know it's been a while since you posted this but,
did you ever for that group you talked about?


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

L


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

O


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

L


----------



## deedaman1 (Oct 19, 2021)

So I take it that is a no. Just asking because I've been doing it for about a year and I'm not doing to badly.


----------



## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

I am still trying to understand this Alibaba/ build house world. On another forum, a person listed several Chinese build houses and gave a rough listing of the brand names that use them. This was specific to subs, but dang near every manufacturer fell under 3 build houses listed. Them mentioned most allow to buy directly so these cost saving were significant


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Jroo said:


> I am still trying to understand this Alibaba/ build house world. On another forum, a person listed several Chinese build houses and gave a rough listing of the brand names that use them. This was specific to subs, but dang near every manufacturer fell under 3 build houses listed. Them mentioned most allow to buy directly so these cost saving were significant


The fundamental misunderstanding is the notion that because products are made in the same factory, that the products are always the same products. Some may be. Some may not be. This depends on the factory and on the customer--on how much technical input the customer provides or whether the customer just shows up, takes some off the shelf thing and changes the logo. 

The fact that a basket or a trim ring or a cone looks similar doesn't mean that the driver is the same. Most factories buy these parts from sub suppliers so basket X may be available to anyone. If a basket works and has the right dimensions, then there's no TECHNICAL reason to tool a new one. If you want your own basket, then it needs to be designed and tooled and there ought to be a contract between the brand and the supplier about the exclusive use of the tool. Same for cones and surrounds and any other proprietary part that may be required to implement a new design or modify an existing one to change or improve the performance. The performance of speakers can vary a lot based on small changes--and many of those small changes won't be obvious from looking at the speaker--especially from looking at pictures of speakers on alibaba.com

I once did some work at a car factory in Taipei who built their own cars (Yulong) and also built Hondas and Nissans for the domestic market in Taiwan. Does that mean that a Honda, a Nissan and a Yulong are the same thing? Of course not. 

So, maybe "trying to understand" means getting some information from people who know something about how manufacturing works rather than reading some BS in this forum or some other one written by someone who works the graveyard shift at Whataburger and trawls the dumbest stuff available on the interwebs in between wrapping up sausage and egg burritos for drunks on the way home.


----------



## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Just use the term MDM which can apply to anything as defined by the department of homeland security but with a twist for this subject. 

An online environment filled with false or misleading narratives and conspiracy theories, and other forms of *mis- dis- and mal-information (MDM)* introduced and/or amplified by fast food workers and dorks living in their mothers basements becoming threat actors on this Forum .


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

GotFrogs said:


> So, maybe "trying to understand" means getting some information from people who know something about how manufacturing works rather than reading some BS in this forum or some other one written by someone who works the graveyard shift at Whataburger and trawls the dumbest stuff available on the interwebs in between wrapping up sausage and egg burritos for drunks on the way home.


That's an elitist statement. While there may be someone on here that works the "graveshift at Whataburger", almost everyone is smart enough and understands these simple facts. Keep pushing the China narrative though while they steal the world's intellectual property rights, perpetrate genocide, kill their own citizens at will, imprison entire families in hard labor camps for no reason at all, imprison those that criticize their gov't, poison the world with various viruses, etc, etc, etc. Seriously man, you should get off China's jock.


----------



## deedaman1 (Oct 19, 2021)




----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Patriot83 said:


> That's an elitist statement. While there may be someone on here that works the "graveshift at Whataburger", almost everyone is smart enough and understands these simple facts. Keep pushing the China narrative though while they steal the world's intellectual property rights, perpetrate genocide, kill their own citizens at will, imprison entire families in hard labor camps for no reason at all, imprison those that criticize their gov't, poison the world with various viruses, etc, etc, etc. Seriously man, you should get off China's jock.



I used to work the graveyard shift at Whataburger when I lived in Texas and when I was a kid. And when I did, I was no expert in car audio or in speakers or in anything, for that matter. Thank God for elites in every field because without them, most everything would just suck.

And no one I know in China is doing any of those things that appear in your list of atrocities. Several people I know here in the US are descendants of Chinese people who were conscripted to build US railroads or who were mistakenly interned with Japanese people. I'm no fan of the Chinese government but governments aren't often good representatives of their citizens. We have the same problem here.

You, sir, are a dork.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

GotFrogs said:


> I used to work the graveyard shift at Whataburger when I lived in Texas and when I was a kid. And when I did, I was no expert in car audio or in speakers or in anything, for that matter. Thank God for elites in every field because without them, most everything would just suck.
> 
> And no one I know in China is doing any of those things that appear in your list of atrocities. Several people I know here in the US are descendants of Chinese people who were conscripted to build US railroads or who were mistakenly interned with Japanese people. I'm no fan of the Chinese government but governments aren't often good representatives of their citizens. We have the same problem here.
> 
> You, sir, are a dork.


haha, a dork. I haven't heard that in awhile. I wouldn't say we have the same problems here. Not even close. Thank goodness we still have speaker and amp manufacturing that's not in China. And thank goodness not everyone praises China.


----------



## deedaman1 (Oct 19, 2021)

So I'm not interested In anything but seeing if anyone has bought subs from these distributors. I have and in impressed with the performance. This is one of the higher end from my purchases. I measured and tested and for the most part all the subs i have purchased and they are performing at or above my expectations. Here are the links via YouTube of some of the subs I've delt with so far.

The sub in the pic posted I haven't tested or measured yet because I'm still building the enclosure. The big grey sub is a Dayton ultimax that I also built a custom enclosure for. Feel free to comment or make suggestions.
All input is welcome.


----------



## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

Patriot83 said:


> haha, a dork. I haven't heard that in awhile. I wouldn't say we have the same problems here. Not even close. Thank goodness we still have speaker and amp manufacturing that's not in China. And thank goodness not everyone praises China.


He edited it to dork! Think Richard Noggin!


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

DaveG said:


> He edited it to dork! Think Richard Noggin!


silly names don't hurt my feelings. He's just butt hurt because I'm not afraid to call out communist sympathizers.


----------



## Esscueonly (Nov 25, 2021)

How does the owner of a company have time to get into a flame war in a diy forum? Oh yeah, by overcharging for Chinese products.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

deedaman1 said:


> So I'm not interested In anything but seeing if anyone has bought subs from these distributors. I have and in impressed with the performance. This is one of the higher end from my purchases. I measured and tested and for the most part all the subs i have purchased and they are performing at or above my expectations. Here are the links via YouTube of some of the subs I've delt with so far.
> 
> The sub in the pic posted I haven't tested or measured yet because I'm still building the enclosure. The big grey sub is a Dayton ultimax that I also built a custom enclosure for. Feel free to comment or make suggestions.
> All input is welcome.


When you say measured and tested, are you extracting T/S parameters? Are they matching what's stated? Forgive me if this info was given already as I didn't read fully... short attention span. 

I do like to peruse the interwebz for oddball drivers or whatever that suits car audio, not for knockoffs though. Just like many brands, true measurements vs stated can be worlds apart. That can make or break what's considered a value... at least to me. 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

Esscueonly said:


> How does the owner of a company have time to get into a flame war in a diy forum? Oh yeah, by overcharging for Chinese products.


Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. But hey, to each their own


----------



## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

Esscueonly said:


> How does the owner of a company have time to get into a flame war in a diy forum? Oh yeah, by overcharging for Chinese products.



this is quite rude.


In fact all of you guys are being pretty rude to Andy, considering how much he has contributed to knowledge on this forum and the community as a whole.

Do you guys really think that you can get the performance of the Audiofrog products for anything in the same price range that will ALSO fit in your car and include the insane support he offers for his products?


I can promise you not. You will need to buy a set of Focal utopias of Dynaudio Esotars if you want them to perform as well as a set of Audiofrog GB series do AND physically fit and hold up inside your vehicle. Yes there are a lot of home audio drivers that perform decent but they are huge and most are not suited for a car audio environment.


if everyone has such a moral issue with using products from China then you may as well throw away that iPhone or Galaxy you are using because they are made in China too. 


I’m not even running a single Audiofrog product in my car right now, I’m not a dealer, I have no dog in this fight, but I can promise you guys that the GB series speakers compete head to head with car audio drivers that cost WAY more.


----------



## Esscueonly (Nov 25, 2021)

He called a member a d#@[email protected] and then backtracked to dork. And I'm the rude one.


----------



## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

And just to add this, I’m sure Andy has a decent profit margin his products, but why not? Why not make money if you are still below the price of your closest competitor?

he’s spent from what I know decades learning loudspeaker engineering , designing products that are as good as products (objective tests show them having low distortion) as high end drivers like Scanspeak and then you expect someone to price their drivers to where they are barely making any money?

screw that, if I work my a$$ off my whole life to make great performing products you can bet your a$$ I’m charging market value for the performance you get.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

Esscueonly said:


> He called a member a d#@[email protected] and then backtracked to dork. And I'm the rude one.


Exactly.


cman said:


> And just to add this, I’m sure Andy has a decent profit margin his products, but why not? Why not make money if you are still below the price of your closest competitor?
> 
> he’s spent from what I know decades learning loudspeaker engineering , designing products that are as good as products (objective tests show them having low distortion) as high end drivers like Scanspeak and then you expect someone to price their drivers to where they are barely making any money?
> 
> screw that, if I work my a$$ off my whole life to make great performing products you can bet your a$$ I’m charging market value for the performance you get.


Settle down man. We all (myself included) appreciate his knowledge and contributions to car audio. I have no problem with what he charges for his speakers. They are very good IMO. However, when someone starts praising China, we should all push back on that. I wish he would build his speakers somewhere else but that's his choice. I don't criticize his products or even him until he starts praising China, which this isn't the first time. There are many other options other than China for me. You can't even buy Audiofrog speakers on Alibaba can you? The owner of a company calling people names on the internet. Pretty stupid.


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

cman said:


> I can promise you not. You will need to buy a set of Focal utopias of Dynaudio Esotars if you want them to perform as well as a set of Audiofrog GB series do AND physically fit and hold up inside your vehicle. Yes there are a lot of home audio drivers that perform decent but they are huge and most are not suited for a car audio environment.


i have heard them, decent speakers but they should not be mentioned in the same sentence as the utopias and esotars


----------



## cman (Aug 24, 2020)

Patriot83 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Settle down man. We all (myself included) appreciate his knowledge and contributions to car audio. I have no problem with what he charges for his speakers. They are very good IMO. However, when someone starts praising China, we should all push back on that. I wish he would build his speakers somewhere else but that's his choice. I don't criticize his products or even him until he starts praising China, which this isn't the first time. There are many other options other than China for me. You can't even buy Audiofrog speakers on Alibaba can you? The owner of a company calling people names on the internet. Pretty stupid.




Sorry I did not mean to come off rude. I just want people to know that I used to feel the same way about the pricing on audiofrog and other car audio products, mostly because I lacked the understanding of the performance of the products versus cheaper generic alternatives. 


It is very temping to think that something that looks nice, is also performing the same. In the case of the Vifa Alpine tweeters that is true, but it is because they have copied a tried and true design, and Vifa products are already known for being quite cheap but good performing. And then there are brands that do no in house engineering like Skar Audio (and alot of the other SPL brands besides sundown which does its own bespoke designs)


As for China, Unfortunately with how manufacturing is today, our economy has backed us into a corner where we are more or less obligated to have China manufacture our goods for us. It just does not make economic sense to manufacture anything here. I wish it was different, and maybe it will be someday.


----------



## deedaman1 (Oct 19, 2021)

This was not ment to start an argument.
To answer bad boys question.
Yes I use the t/s specs using sub box pro, then double check with win isd, then rew with a umik-1 to build the enclosures before I test them. Then I test umik the subs until compression, hertz levels, then xmax.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

deedaman1 said:


> To answer bad boys question.
> Yes I use the t/s specs using sub box pro, then double check with win isd, then rew with a umik-1 to build the enclosures before I test them. Then I test umik the subs until compression, hertz levels, then xmax.


So you're not extracting parameters via actual testing (Woofer Tester, Dats, etc)? The issues I have with taking any given spec as accurate is that many times you'll find that they aren't when testing. Running the stated numbers through programs to double check isn't a bad thing, but any company or individual can concoct "ideal" parameters that appeal to those interested and will not pull red flags in a box program. You'd be surprised how many drivers that were once popular on here didn't measure what members thought or what manufacturer's stated. 

If you want to find true gems... extract parameters, don't completely trust what is given. 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


----------



## deedaman1 (Oct 19, 2021)

I have them as well as graphs. I save them so I can do a proper comparison to which sub is good and which sub is great. If your familiar with win isd you know all measurements can be saved. Otherwise comparisons can't be made.
I still haven't heard from anyone that has purchased any of these subwoofers. I need others opinions on the subs.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

deedaman1 said:


> I have them as well as graphs. I save them so I can do a proper comparison to which sub is good and which sub is great. If your familiar with win isd you know all measurements can be saved. Otherwise comparisons can't be made.
> I still haven't heard from anyone that has purchased any of these subwoofers. I need others opinions on the subs.


You have DATS? It's what I use though I started off with a WT2 years ago. Until I can confirm that the tested parameters match manufacturer, I don't trust a graph. 

Perhaps I'm not understanding your reply. You say you have them all, but all of what? Given parameters or test equipment. Box programs aren't what I consider test equipment... that's more or less design gear. 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


----------



## deedaman1 (Oct 19, 2021)

I have all my testing and graphs saved on rew. Please keep in mind I do this as a hobby for fun. I don't work for a speaker/subwoofer Corp. I just love sound audio. Also love keeping these AV companies honest. There are alot of claims but 80% of claims are true. The other 20% are just pushing out garbage speakers and subwoofers. I'm sure that other percentage is much higher.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

You still didn't answer my question directly, or maybe you have indirectly. I hate to assume. I've asked specifically what tool are you using, but you seem to avoid it.

My point isn't to criticize your efforts, rather pointing out where assumptions in testing can be wrong. I can't tell you how many drivers I've tested over the years that where nowhere close though there were a good bit that were damn near spot on (within 10%). I am no pro either. I'm just hobbyist of close to 30 years, but when I test a driver I strive for accuracy in the data which means using test equipment as this is the only way to know your efforts aren't in vain. DATS and some calibrated weights are the minimum and costs no more than what most spend on a single sub, but I digress. 

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Esscueonly said:


> He called a member a d#@[email protected] and then backtracked to dork. And I'm the rude one.


The horror. LOL.


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Patriot83 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Settle down man. We all (myself included) appreciate his knowledge and contributions to car audio. I have no problem with what he charges for his speakers. They are very good IMO. However, when someone starts praising China, we should all push back on that. I wish he would build his speakers somewhere else but that's his choice. I don't criticize his products or even him until he starts praising China, which this isn't the first time. There are many other options other than China for me. You can't even buy Audiofrog speakers on Alibaba can you? The owner of a company calling people names on the internet. Pretty stupid.


I have NEVER in my life praised the Chinese government. Never. I have lots of friends in China and as I mentioned, none of them have anything to do with anything you've listed. We make speakers in China because the factory we use is a Tier-1 automotive supplier and as such, has all of the performance, environmental and reliability testing equipment necessary to meet our requirements.


----------



## deedaman1 (Oct 19, 2021)

I listed the tools and software I used earlier umik-1 and mini for home theater.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

GotFrogs said:


> And no one I know in China is doing any of those things that appear in your list of atrocities. Several people I know here in the US are descendants of Chinese people who were conscripted to build US railroads or who were mistakenly interned with Japanese people. I'm no fan of the Chinese government but governments aren't often good representatives of their citizens. We have the same problem here.
> 
> You, sir, are a dork.


"Descendants of Chinese people conscripted to build railroads or mistakenly interned with the Japanese". Pretty sad you've repeatedly spoken highly of a communist country while trying to point out the misdeeds of America. You sound like Bernie Sanders or AOC. 



GotFrogs said:


> I have NEVER in my life praised the Chinese government. Never. I have lots of friends in China and as I mentioned, none of them have anything to do with anything you've listed. We make speakers in China because the factory we use is a Tier-1 automotive supplier and as such, has all of the performance, environmental and reliability testing equipment necessary to meet our requirements.


Look man, I don't care what you believe or who you vote for. Do all the business in China you want and make lots of money. Keep making good speakers. That's what you're good at but, don't try to compare China with America. There really is no comparison. Maybe you should ask all those Chinese descendants you know why their families fled China for the US and even stayed after they were conscripted to build railroads or were interned.


----------



## JCsAudio (Jun 16, 2014)

Many of the Chinese people are victims of the Chinese communist party (CCP) so to be fare I know from my research (correct me if I'm wrong Andy) that Andy tried to get manufacturing in the US, but there were no manufacturers that could meet his specifications within the USA. The CCP is the communist regime that is responsible for the gynecide and enslavement camps that has been exposed in the last few years. This includes the Uighurs and Falun gong practitioners that have been enslaved and prosecuted by the CCP. They are also responsible for human organ harvesting of these people and that also has recently been exposed over the last decade. 

I currently own AudioFrog gear and I love it but I also purchased it long before I was aware of what is going on in China. Andy himself has been very good to deal with from my personal experience. I still purchase products that are made in China (kind of hard to avoid) but if I have a choice, my preference will go to the non-Chinese goods, even if it costs more. This is a personal choice I have made. I think it is wrong though to attack Andy for choosing to manufacture his speakers with a Chinese manufacturer so long as he doesn't knowingly do so with the knowledge that those products are being made with slave labor. Most of the slave labor that is mentioned with the Uighurs and Falun gong practitioners are involved with really cheap goods costing only a few dollars here (at least this is what I have learned). 

Ultimately I think everyone is going to have to make the choice themselves and educate themselves on what is really going on over there. I hope that the world starts to realize that they may need to wean themselves off China because if they don't, the CCP will eventually have their way as the worlds superpower, and if that happens then all these terrible things they do to these people could migrate well beyond their borders. Remember the Tiananmen Square protests. China is not a developing nation anymore either. They have nuclear capability with subsonic missile capability and are building their military at an alarming rate. They also have their eye on Taiwan, and it is only a matter of time before they take them by force much like Putin is trying to do with Ukraine for the similar reasons. Xi jinping has taken into considering what happened in Afghanistan and how the West is dealing with the Ukraine conflict and he is calculating the risk to benefit ratio in regards to making a move on Taiwan. It's not if but when for him.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

China is brutal to not only the avg everyday citizen but also to their highest profile billionaires including the founder of Alibaba. In 2012, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) implanted 2000 party members into various leadership positions in Alibaba. 
Disappearing Billionaires: Jack Ma And Other Chinese Moguls Who Have Mysteriously Dropped Off The Radar (forbes.com)

There's LOTS of reasons to avoid Chinese made products when possible. Too many to list. How long before they release the next plague onto the world? Like I've said, I don't complain if someone goes to China to do business. That's their choice but, if someone paints China in a good light, that needs some admonishment.


----------



## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

Esscueonly said:


> He called a member a d#@[email protected] and then backtracked to dork. And I'm the rude one.


I thought the same thing. Why would a business owner respond in that manner


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Jroo said:


> I thought the same thing. Why would a business owner respond in that manner


I'm not only a business owner. I'm also a person. So, being called a communist sympathizer by some anonymous "Patriot" doesn't mean that I have to forever remain calm and composed. If what people are required to do in their personal and public capacity is to repeatedly respond in good faith to bad faith insults and trolling then of what use is any of this?


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

FWIW, I took absolutely no offense to being called a name by someone I don't even know. I also wish AW all the best in his business. On to more important things....


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

And literally every piece of gear listed in esscueonly's signature is made in China--while he trolls me. LOLOLOLOLOL


----------



## Jroo (May 24, 2006)

GotFrogs said:


> I'm not only a business owner. I'm also a person. So, being called a communist sympathizer by some anonymous "Patriot" doesn't mean that I have to forever remain calm and composed. If what people are required to do in their personal and public capacity is to repeatedly respond in good faith to bad faith insults and trolling then of what use is any of this?


there is a lot of back and forth and I am aware of the comment you made that trigger Patriot as it was tied to my post. This response was before you called Patriot a name and things went further south. People like me still come to forums to ask questions to learn, not get the I am smarter than you smack on the wrist.


----------



## Esscueonly (Nov 25, 2021)

GotFrogs said:


> And literally every piece of gear listed in esscueonly's signature is made in China--while he trolls me. LOLOLOLOLOL


I met you a few years back at Knowledgefest. It seems my initial impression was accurate.  I bought that gear because it was recommended by the dealer who became my friend, not because of where it was assembled. 6 years later and still going strong. Now I'm switching the HAT for Esotar2. Does Denmark use child labor?


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Oh, except for the head unit. that might be made in Japan.


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Esscueonly said:


> I met you a few years back at Knowledgefest. It seems my initial impression was accurate.  I bought that gear because it was recommended by the dealer who became my friend, not because of where it was assembled. 6 years later and still going strong. Now I'm switching the HAT for Esotar2. Does Denmark use child labor?


DynAudio was recently (a couple of years ago) purchased by GoerTek, which is a Chinese company based in Weifeng. It's a very nice city in Shandong province, famous for making really delicious dumplings. If you decide to go there, I suggest eating some dumplings here:


* Beimadao Dumplings *

* 北马道饺子 *


Maybe the best I've ever eaten.


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Oh, that deal was in 2014.


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

GotFrogs said:


> DynAudio was recently (a couple of years ago) purchased by GoerTek, which is a Chinese company based in Weifeng. It's a very nice city in Shandong province, famous for making really delicious dumplings. If you decide to go there, I suggest eating some dumplings here:
> 
> 
> * Beimadao Dumplings *
> ...


esotec, esotar and there home speakers still made in denmark, not china. by the way, superior over your frogs even its made in a rice field


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

GotFrogs said:


> And no one I know in China is doing any of those things that appear in your list of atrocities.
> 
> Several people I know here in the US are descendants of Chinese people who were conscripted to build US railroads or who were mistakenly interned them with Japanese people. I'm no fan of the Chinese government but governments aren't often good representatives of their citizens.


No one I know of conscripted the Chinese people to build railroads or mistakenly interned them with Japanese people. The railroad was built 152 years ago.

US Citizen's of Japanese descendants were interned during a time of war because of Pearl Habor being cowardly bombed by Japan 80 years ago. They were released over 76 years ago.

So how far are we going to reach back to try to find something that will justify China's current atrocities?









Yes, the Atrocities in Xinjiang Constitute a Genocide


Beijing’s own words and actions highlight the intent to end the Uyghurs as a people.




foreignpolicy.com













China criticized by 43 countries for ongoing atrocities against Uyghurs at UN


China has been condemned for its ongoing atrocities in Xinjiang against Muslim Uyghurs and other religious minorities by more than 40 countries at the UN.




www.republicworld.com













China continues to defy international obligations, abuse world bodies arbitrarily: Report


Beijing has reportedly implemented increasingly harsh measures on minorities and Chinese dissidents, signing extradition accords with 59 countries.




www.republicworld.com













China's crimes against humanity you've never heard of | CNN


I first visited Xinjiang, in northwest China, in July 2009, returning to Beijing only days before demonstrations in the region's capital, Urumqi, turned deadly.




www.cnn.com













TRIPLETT: On China’s many atrocities


It just so happens that both the United States and China will be engaged in leadership decisions this fall. In the case of the United States, after a full discussion of the issues, the American people will elect a new president or re-elect the incumbent. The American president will become (or...




www.washingtontimes.com













Experts: China Carving Lungs Out of Political Prisoners to Treat Coronavirus


China is likely using lungs taken from living political prisoners to treat coronavirus patients, a doctoral researcher told Breitbart News.




www.breitbart.com





And a lot more atrocities are easy to find with a simple Google search.

So let's cut out the B.S. and quit trying to split hairs and repeat after me.

CHINA'S GOVERNMENT IS NOT A FRIEND TO MOST of the WESTERN WORLD GOVERNMENT'S & until the China's citizens change their government, THE CITIZENS of CHINA ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR GOVERNMENT'S CURRENT ACTIONS.


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Hahahahha...Washington Times and Breitbart.

I have never defended the Chinese government. People are not their governments. I'm not willing to be held to account for Trump's ******** coup attempt or Obama's drone strikes any more that I'm willing to hold my friends in China to account for the things they didn't do, either.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Hahahahha... I guess you are just going to gloss over the CNN article? (I included it on purpose because your response is SO typical for liberals.)

And are you honestly going to say the capital BS on the January 06, 2021 or the drone strikes are as bad as China's atrocities? LMAO!!!

Your position on not holding China's citizens accountable for the actions of their government sounds just like the Nazi supporters after 1945. According to 99.99% of the Nazis, they were just following orders and were not responsible for their government's actions either!


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Nom Nom Nom...


----------



## Esscueonly (Nov 25, 2021)




----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Here is something else for you to chew on:



https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-pushes-back-suggestions-russia-134258538.html











China’s Xi strongly backs Afghanistan at regional conference


BEIJING — Chinese leader Xi Jinping issued strong backing for Afghanistan at a regional conference Thursday, while making no mention of human rights abuses by the country’s Taliban leaders. China’s fo




www.columbian.com







China Praises Russia for Preventing Humanitarian Crisis in Ukraine


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

As I've stated many times, I'm not going to defend the Chinese government.


----------



## mzmtg (Dec 8, 2009)

KillerBox said:


> Here is something else for you to chew on:


I'm not upset with my Russian coworker about Ukraine because he had nothing to do with the invasion. I'm also wearing a Russian-made watch right now.

Does that make me a Putin apologist in your eyes?


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

mzmtg said:


> I'm not upset with my Russian coworker about Ukraine because he had nothing to do with the invasion. I'm also wearing a Russian-made watch right now.
> 
> Does that make me a Putin apologist in your eyes?


This. Precisely. These guys aren't interested in being circumspect or reasonable or humane or intellectually honest. This is just another opportunity to prove their conservative bona fides by screaming at liberals and trying to trap them in their web of misspelled gotchas.


----------



## DarkravenR6 (Jan 29, 2021)

Can a moderator come in here and cut this BS out? Once we start going Republican/Democrat all hell will break loose. I've never seen an internet argument sway somebody's political beliefs.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

GotFrogs said:


> This. Precisely. These guys aren't interested in being circumspect or reasonable or humane or intellectually honest. This is just another opportunity to prove their conservative bona fides by screaming at liberals and trying to trap them in their web of misspelled gotchas.


Wrong again. Some people just don't want to support Chinese made products when possible.


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Patriot83 said:


> Wrong again. Some people just don't want to support Chinese made products when possible.


Then don't buy Chinese products. Your choice. But to troll me exclusively about complicity in a bunch of atrocities doesn't really have anything to do with whether you buy products or don't buy products. It's even sillier in a thread in which people are trying to circumvent the contributions that brands make in the development of the products they sell by attempting to buy them direct from the factory. And even sillier when the trolls have cars full of products made to brand spec by Chinese factories and factories owned by Chinese conglomerates--and who aren't forthcoming about country of origin despite the US legal requirements for disclosure.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

GotFrogs said:


> Then don't buy Chinese products. Your choice. But to troll me exclusively about complicity in a bunch of atrocities doesn't really have anything to do with whether you buy products or don't buy products. It's even sillier in a thread in which people are trying to circumvent the contributions that brands make in the development of the products they sell by attempting to buy them direct from the factory. And even sillier when the trolls have cars full of products made to brand spec by Chinese factories and factories owned by Chinese conglomerates--and who aren't forthcoming about country of origin despite the US legal requirements for disclosure.


There was a time when we in the US wouldn't have thought of supporting a communist country. Once you start supporting them you get what we have now in China. How has China increased their military (and economy) to massive levels in staggeringly record times? Think it has nothing to do with practically everything being made in China nowadays? They are the biggest polluter in the world by far. The amount of trash, plastic and carbon emissions they release into the climate is more than almost all other countries combined. I noticed in another thread you didn't seem to care about that much which should be surprising but not really. As I've said, I can keep naming the terrible things about China but you wouldn't care. You just keep saying but it's not the people. If you made your speakers in some other countries I'd probably buy them. I just choose to not support a communist country whenever possible. It has nothing to do with republican vs democrat.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

GotFrogs, I did not get involved in this discussion until you started trying to defend China's policies by bringing up something that happened in the USA over 75 years ago.

Then you switched gears and tried to split hairs between China's government and China's citizens with a post 1945 Nazi style defense.

So don't tell me how great China is nowadays and how bad the USA is for something that happened over 75 years ago.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

P.S. Buying from China's Factories = Supporting China's Government

Because everyone knows without supporting China's Government in China, then you aren't opening a factory in China.


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

I haven't defended ANY of China's policies nor their government. I simply made a comparison between not holding ordinary Chinese citizens accountable for the stupid **** their government does in the same way I don't expect to be held accountable for the stupid **** my government does.

Here, the government doesn't really abuse people directly, they just look the other way while their benefactors do it.


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

I'm not sure whether it's possible to buy ANY electronics product that doesn't include some content that comes from China. So how diligent are you willing to be about all of this? Are you going to to board level inspection of everything you buy? Or is this, as I think it is, just about trolling me?


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

GotFrogs said:


> Here, the government doesn't really abuse people directly, they just look the other way while their benefactors do it.


Show me where the USA or its benefactors have supported murder like China's has?


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

GotFrogs said:


> I'm not sure whether it's possible to buy ANY electronics product that doesn't include some content that comes from China. So how diligent are you willing to be about all of this? Are you going to to board level inspection of everything you buy? Or is this, as I think it is, just about trolling me?


I am not trolling you. What I am not going to do is let someone bad mouth my country from 75 years ago to justify something that is happening today that is multiple times worse.


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

KillerBox said:


> Show me where the USA or its benefactors have supported murder like China's has?


I'm talking about US based multinationals who bribe politicians to look the other way. You can google, but here's one.









Inside the Koch Brothers' Toxic Empire


Together, Charles and David Koch control one of the world’s largest fortunes, which they are using to buy up our political system. But what they don’t want you to know is how they made …




www.rollingstone.com


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

KillerBox said:


> I am not trolling you. What I am not going to do is let someone bad mouth my country from 75 years ago to justify something that is happening today that is multiple times worse.


LOL. I'm not badmouthing my country. I love my country. I want it to be as great as it can be. That requires circumspection and intellectual honesty, not just some flag waving and lib owning.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

GotFrogs said:


> I'm not sure whether it's possible to buy ANY electronics product that doesn't include some content that comes from China. So how diligent are you willing to be about all of this? Are you going to to board level inspection of everything you buy? Or is this, as I think it is, just about trolling me?


It's not about trolling you man. Like I said, do your business wherever you want. I'm not rooting against your business. You chose a career that benefits all of us on here that like this hobby. It's just maddening when someone tries to justify a communist countries behavior and saying look what we did to them in the 1940's. Of course the avg citizen of China aren't bad people but, praising the country also has to include the gov't. I have nothing against Cubans either but I'm not going to vacation there. I feel even worse for the people of North Korea.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

GotFrogs said:


> I'm talking about US based multinationals who bribe politicians to look the other way. You can google, but here's one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, handling explosive petro-chemicals isn't murder. With reporting like the Rolling Stones, Chevron has tried attempting murder on me 3 times, Shell twice and Texaco once because in my +30 years, I have in an oil refinery 6 different times when they had explosions. 

Petro Chemical are highly dangerous. The plants are made even more dangerous because our government's policies are very restrictive on building any new refineries. As my friend that was one of Chevron's top safety professional used to say "doing a shutdown at an oil refinery is like rebuilding an engine on a junk car that hasn't been turned off since 1965 without turning off the engine today either"


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

When have I praised the current Chinese government? 

I like Chinese people. My wife is Chinese. Half my family is Chinese. I have lots of Chinese friends all over the world. What good does it do to give up on people who have no control over what their government does?


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

GotFrogs said:


> LOL. I'm not badmouthing my country. I love my country. I want it to be as great as it can be. That requires circumspection and intellectual honesty, not just some flag waving and lib owning.


It already is as good as it can be realistically. In the shortest time in human history we have become the fairest, most prosperous, most equal and the country with the most freedom in human existence.


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

KillerBox said:


> Lol, handling explosive petro-chemicals isn't murder. With reporting like the Rolling Stones, Chevron has tried attempting murder on me 3 times, Shell twice and Texaco once because in my +30 years, I have in an oil refinery 6 different times when they had explosions.
> 
> Petro Chemical are highly dangerous. The plants are made even more dangerous because our government's policies are very restrictive on building any new refineries. As my friend that was one of Chevron's top safety professional used to say "doing a shutdown at an oil refinery is like rebuilding an engine on a junk car that hasn't been turned off since 1965 without turning off the engine today either"


That's all you got out of the entire article? LOL. This is possibly the most dishonest bunch of trolling I've ever seen.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

GotFrogs said:


> When have I praised the current Chinese government?
> 
> I like Chinese people. My wife is Chinese. Half my family is Chinese. I have lots of Chinese friends all over the world. What good does it do to give up on people who have no control over what their government does?


According to this reasoning, 99.99% of the Nazi's had no control over what their government did either.


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Perfect. Thank you. Now I'm equal to a Nazi because I have Chinese friends and family. 

I think you've made my point. Thanks Ryan.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

GotFrogs said:


> Perfect. Thank you. Now I'm equal to a Nazi because I have Chinese friends and family.
> 
> I think you've made my point. Thanks Ryan.


That is not what I said. I don't care if you have Chinese friends and family. 

What I said is I care if you try to bad mouth my country from something that happened during war over 75 years ago to justify something that is happening today in China that is multiple times worse.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

GotFrogs said:


> Perfect. Thank you. Now I'm equal to a Nazi because I have Chinese friends and family.
> 
> I think you've made my point. Thanks Ryan.


I also said "Buying from China's Factories = Supporting China's Government

Because everyone knows without supporting China's Government in China, then you aren't opening a factory in China."


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

.


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

DarkravenR6 said:


> Can a moderator come in here and cut this BS out? Once we start going Republican/Democrat all hell will break loose. I've never seen an internet argument sway somebody's political beliefs.


Exactly! This constant crying about politics and looking for every da#n reason to bring it up has gotten old and it's time for some to either be put in time out or just get gone. This is not the Off Topic forum! Take that crap over there!

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

GotFrogs said:


> Several people I know here in the US are descendants of Chinese people who were conscripted to build US railroads or who were mistakenly interned with Japanese people.


This was the post that made me post my first post on this thread. So don't talk about this thread getting off track by me without saying something about this first.


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

Bro, It's just US history. That's all it is. It was ****ty and hopefully nothing like that will happen again. Recognizing history is not badmouthing. It's important in ensuring a better future.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

GotFrogs said:


> Bro, It's just US history. That's all it is. It was ****ty and hopefully nothing like that will happen again. Recognizing history is not badmouthing. It's important in ensuring a better future.


Exactly it is USA's history and should not be used to justify China's 10x more horrible actions today!


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

KillerBox said:


> Show me where the USA or its benefactors have supported murder like China's has?


JFC, I don't even know where to START to answer this naive question.



Have you ever heard of the US miltary run School of the Americas and the special role it took in training South American dictators and their police forces in right wing terror techniques intended simply to keep labor unions from power and civilian populaitons scared, raped or jailed ... if not simply murdered!!!

How about the actual bombing campaigns in Cambodia, Korea and Vietnam ??

How about intentionally destabilizing democratically elected leaders in Chile, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Nicaragua, and even in Iran, Iraq, and Pakistan and likely even Ukraine??

In fact, some researchers have estimated that the United States most likely has been responsible since WWII for the deaths of between 20 and 30 million people in wars and conflicts scattered over the world.

Heres a cut and paste of more of them --



*Afghanistan*

The U.S. is responsible for between 1 and 1.8 million deaths during the war between the Soviet Union and Afghanistan, by luring the Soviet Union into invading that nation. (1,2,3,4)

The Soviet Union had friendly relations its neighbor, Afghanistan, which had a secular government. The Soviets feared that if that government became fundamentalist this change could spill over into the Soviet Union.

In 1998, in an interview with the Parisian publication Le Novel Observateur, Zbigniew Brzezinski, adviser to President Carter, admitted that he had been responsible for instigating aid to the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan which caused the Soviets to invade. In his own words:

“According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan on 24 December 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise. Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the President in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.” (5,1,6)



Brzezinski justified laying this trap, since he said it gave the Soviet Union its Vietnam and caused the breakup of the Soviet Union. “Regret what?” he said. “That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it?” (7)

The CIA spent 5 to 6 billion dollars on its operation in Afghanistan in order to bleed the Soviet Union. (1,2,3) When that 10-year war ended over a million people were dead and Afghan heroin had captured 60% of the U.S. market. (4)

The U.S. has been responsible directly for about 12,000 deaths in Afghanistan many of which resulted from bombing in retaliation for the attacks on U.S. property on September 11, 2001. Subsequently U.S. troops invaded that country. (4)

*Angola*



An indigenous armed struggle against Portuguese rule in Angola began in 1961. In 1977 an Angolan government was recognized by the U.N., although the U.S. was one of the few nations that opposed this action. In 1986 Uncle Sam approved material assistance to UNITA, a group that was trying to overthrow the government. Even today this struggle, which has involved many nations at times, continues.

U.S. intervention was justified to the U.S. public as a reaction to the intervention of 50,000 Cuban troops in Angola. However, according to Piero Gleijeses, a history professor at Johns Hopkins University the reverse was true. The Cuban intervention came as a result of a CIA – financed covert invasion via neighboring Zaire and a drive on the Angolan capital by the U.S. ally, South Africa1,2,3). (Three estimates of deaths range from 300,000 to 750,000 (4,5,6)



*Argentina: See South America: Operation Condor



Bangladesh: See Pakistan



Bolivia*

Hugo Banzer was the leader of a repressive regime in Bolivia in the 1970s. The U.S. had been disturbed when a previous leader nationalized the tin mines and distributed land to Indian peasants. Later that action to benefit the poor was reversed.

Banzer, who was trained at the U.S.-operated School of the Americas in Panama and later at Fort Hood, Texas, came back from exile frequently to confer with U.S. Air Force Major Robert Lundin. In 1971 he staged a successful coup with the help of the U.S. Air Force radio system. In the first years of his dictatorship he received twice as military assistance from the U.S. as in the previous dozen years together.

A few years later the Catholic Church denounced an army massacre of striking tin workers in 1975, Banzer, assisted by information provided by the CIA, was able to target and locate leftist priests and nuns. His anti-clergy strategy, known as the Banzer Plan, was adopted by nine other Latin American dictatorships in 1977. (2) He has been accused of being responsible for 400 deaths during his tenure. (1)

*Also see: See South America: Operation Condor


Brazil: See South America: Operation Condor

Cambodia*

U.S. bombing of Cambodia had already been underway for several years in secret under the Johnson and Nixon administrations, but when President Nixon openly began bombing in preparation for a land assault on Cambodia it caused major protests in the U.S. against the Vietnam War.

There is little awareness today of the scope of these bombings and the human suffering involved.

Immense damage was done to the villages and cities of Cambodia, causing refugees and internal displacement of the population. This unstable situation enabled the Khmer Rouge, a small political party led by Pol Pot, to assume power. Over the years we have repeatedly heard about the Khmer Rouge’s role in the deaths of millions in Cambodia without any acknowledgement being made this mass killing was made possible by the the U.S. bombing of that nation which destabilized it by death , injuries, hunger and dislocation of its people.

So the U.S. bears responsibility not only for the deaths from the bombings but also for those resulting from the activities of the Khmer Rouge - a total of about 2.5 million people. Even when Vietnam latrer invaded Cambodia in 1979 the CIA was still supporting the Khmer Rouge. (1,2,3)

*Also see Vietnam

Chad*

An estimated 40,000 people in Chad were killed and as many as 200,000 tortured by a government, headed by Hissen Habre who was brought to power in June, 1982 with the help of CIA money and arms. He remained in power for eight years. (1,2)

Human Rights Watch claimed that Habre was responsible for thousands of killings. In 2001, while living in Senegal, he was almost tried for crimes committed by him in Chad. However, a court there blocked these proceedings. Then human rights people decided to pursue the case in Belgium, because some of Habre’s torture victims lived there. The U.S., in June 2003, told Belgium that it risked losing its status as host to NATO’s headquarters if it allowed such a legal proceeding to happen. So the result was that the law that allowed victims to file complaints in Belgium for atrocities committed abroad was repealed. However, two months later a new law was passed which made special provision for the continuation of the case against Habre.

*Chile*

The CIA intervened in Chile’s 1958 and 1964 elections. In 1970 a socialist candidate, Salvador Allende, was elected president. The CIA wanted to incite a military coup to prevent his inauguration, but the Chilean army’s chief of staff, General Rene Schneider, opposed this action. The CIA then planned, along with some people in the Chilean military, to assassinate Schneider. This plot failed and Allende took office. President Nixon was not to be dissuaded and he ordered the CIA to create a coup climate: “Make the economy scream,” he said.
What followed were guerilla warfare, arson, bombing, sabotage and terror. ITT and other U.S. corporations with Chilean holdings sponsored demonstrations and strikes. Finally, on September 11, 1973 Allende died either by suicide or by assassination. At that time Henry Kissinger, U.S. Secretary of State, said the following regarding Chile: “I don’t see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist because of the irresponsibility of its own people.” (1)

During 17 years of terror under Allende’s successor, General Augusto Pinochet, an estimated 3,000 Chileans were killed and many others were tortured or “disappeared.” (2,3,4,5)

*Also see South America: Operation Condor

China An estimated 900,000 Chinese died during the Korean War. For more information, See: Korea.


Colombia*

One estimate is that 67,000 deaths have occurred from the 1960s to recent years due to support by the U.S. of Colombian state terrorism. (1)

According to a 1994 Amnesty International report, more than 20,000 people were killed for political reasons in Colombia since 1986, mainly by the military and its paramilitary allies. Amnesty alleged that “U.S.- supplied military equipment, ostensibly delivered for use against narcotics traffickers, was being used by the Colombian military to commit abuses in the name of “counter-insurgency.” (2) In 2002 another estimate was made that 3,500 people die each year in a U.S. funded civilian war in Colombia. (3)

In 1996 Human Rights Watch issued a report “Assassination Squads in Colombia” which revealed that CIA agents went to Colombia in 1991 to help the military to train undercover agents in anti-subversive activity. (4,5)

In recent years the U.S. government has provided assistance under Plan Colombia. The Colombian government has been charged with using most of the funds for destruction of crops and support of the paramilitary group.

*Cuba*

In the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba on April 18, 1961 which ended after 3 days, 114 of the invading force were killed, 1,189 were taken prisoners and a few escaped to waiting U.S. ships. (1) The captured exiles were quickly tried, a few executed and the rest sentenced to thirty years in prison for treason. These exiles were released after 20 months in exchange for $53 million in food and medicine.

Some people estimate that the number of Cuban forces killed range from 2,000, to 4,000. Another estimate is that 1,800 Cuban forces were killed on an open highway by napalm. This appears to have been a precursor of the Highway of Death in Iraq in 1991 when U.S. forces mercilessly annihilated large numbers of Iraqis on a highway. (2)

*Democratic Republic of Congo (formerly Zaire)*

The beginning of massive violence was instigated in this country in 1879 by its colonizer King Leopold of Belgium. The Congo’s population was reduced by 10 million people over a period of 20 years which some have referred to as “Leopold’s Genocide.” (1) The U.S. has been responsible for about a third of that many deaths in that nation in the more recent past. (2)

In 1960 the Congo became an independent state with Patrice Lumumba being its first prime minister. He was assassinated with the CIA being implicated, although some say that his murder was actually the responsibility of Belgium. (3) But nevertheless, the CIA was planning to kill him. (4) Before his assassination the CIA sent one of its scientists, Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, to the Congo carrying “lethal biological material” intended for use in Lumumba’s assassination. This virus would have been able to produce a fatal disease indigenous to the Congo area of Africa and was transported in a diplomatic pouch.

Much of the time in recent years there has been a civil war within the Democratic Republic of Congo, fomented often by the U.S. and other nations, including neighboring nations. (5)

In April 1977, Newsday reported that the CIA was secretly supporting efforts to recruit several hundred mercenaries in the U.S. and Great Britain to serve alongside Zaire’s army. In that same year the U.S. provided $15 million of military supplies to the Zairian President Mobutu to fend off an invasion by a rival group operating in Angola. (6)

In May 1979, the U.S. sent several million dollars of aid to Mobutu who had been condemned 3 months earlier by the U.S. State Department for human rights violations. (7) During the Cold War the U.S. funneled over 300 million dollars in weapons into Zaire (8,9) $100 million in military training was provided to him. (2) In 2001 it was reported to a U.S. congressional committee that American companies, including one linked to former President George Bush Sr., were stoking the Congo for monetary gains. There is an international battle over resources in that country with over 125 companies and individuals being implicated. One of these substances is coltan, which is used in the manufacture of cell phones. (2)

*Dominican Republic*

In 1962, Juan Bosch became president of the Dominican Republic. He advocated such programs as land reform and public works programs. This did not bode well for his future relationship with the U.S., and after only 7 months in office, he was deposed by a CIA coup. In 1965 when a group was trying to reinstall him to his office President Johnson said, “This Bosch is no good.” Assistant Secretary of State Thomas Mann replied “He’s no good at all. If we don’t get a decent government in there, Mr. President, we get another Bosch. It’s just going to be another sinkhole.” Two days later a U.S. invasion started and 22,000 soldiers and marines entered the Dominican Republic and about 3,000 Dominicans died during the fighting. The cover excuse for doing this was that this was done to protect foreigners there. (1,2,3,4)


*East Timor*

In December 1975, Indonesia invaded East Timor. This incursion was launched the day after U.S. President Gerald Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger had left Indonesia where they had given President Suharto permission to use American arms, which under U.S. law, could not be used for aggression. Daniel Moynihan, U.S. ambassador to the UN. said that the U.S. wanted “things to turn out as they did.” (1,2) The result was an estimated 200,000 dead out of a population of 700,000. (1,2)

Sixteen years later, on November 12, 1991, two hundred and seventeen East Timorese protesters in Dili, many of them children, marching from a memorial service, were gunned down by Indonesian Kopassus shock troops who were headed by U.S.- trained commanders Prabowo Subianto (son in law of General Suharto) and Kiki Syahnakri. Trucks were seen dumping bodies into the sea. (5)

*El Salvador*

The civil war from 1981 to1992 in El Salvador was financed by $6 billion in U.S. aid given to support the government in its efforts to crush a movement to bring social justice to the people in that nation of about 8 million people. (1)
During that time U.S. military advisers demonstrated methods of torture on teenage prisoners, according to an interview with a deserter from the Salvadoran army published in the New York Times. This former member of the Salvadoran National Guard testified that he was a member of a squad of twelve who found people who they were told were guerillas and tortured them. Part of the training he received was in torture at a U.S. location somewhere in Panama. (2)

About 900 villagers were massacred in the village of El Mozote in 1981. Ten of the twelve El Salvadoran government soldiers cited as participating in this act were graduates of the School of the Americas operated by the U.S. (2) They were only a small part of about 75,000 people killed during that civil war. (1)

According to a 1993 United Nations’ Truth Commission report, over 96 % of the human rights violations carried out during the war were committed by the Salvadoran army or the paramilitary deaths squads associated with the Salvadoran army. (3)

That commission linked graduates of the School of the Americas to many notorious killings. The New York Times and the Washington Post followed with scathing articles. In 1996, the White House Oversight Board issued a report that supported many of the charges against that school made by Rev. Roy Bourgeois, head of the School of the Americas Watch. That same year the Pentagon released formerly classified reports indicating that graduates were trained in killing, extortion, and physical abuse for interrogations, false imprisonment and other methods of control. (4)

*Grenada*

The CIA began to destabilize Grenada in 1979 after Maurice Bishop became president, partially because he refused to join the quarantine of Cuba. The campaign against him resulted in his overthrow and the invasion by the U.S. of Grenada on October 25, 1983, with about 277 people dying. (1,2) It was fallaciously charged that an airport was being built in Grenada that could be used to attack the U.S. and it was also erroneously claimed that the lives of American medical students on that island were in danger.

*Guatemala*

In 1951 Jacobo Arbenz was elected president of Guatemala. He appropriated some unused land operated by the United Fruit Company and compensated the company. (1,2) That company then started a campaign to paint Arbenz as a tool of an international conspiracy and hired about 300 mercenaries who sabotaged oil supplies and trains. (3) In 1954 a CIA-orchestrated coup put him out of office and he left the country. During the next 40 years various regimes killed thousands of people.

In 1999 the Washington Post reported that an Historical Clarification Commission concluded that over 200,000 people had been killed during the civil war and that there had been 42,000 individual human rights violations, 29,000 of them fatal, 92% of which were committed by the army. The commission further reported that the U.S. government and the CIA had pressured the Guatemalan government into suppressing the guerilla movement by ruthless means. (4,5)

According to the Commission between 1981 and 1983 the military government of Guatemala – financed and supported by the U.S. government – destroyed some four hundred Mayan villages in a campaign of genocide. (4)
One of the documents made available to the commission was a 1966 memo from a U.S. State Department official, which described how a “safe house” was set up in the palace for use by Guatemalan security agents and their U.S. contacts. This was the headquarters for the Guatemalan “dirty war” against leftist insurgents and suspected allies. (2)

*Haiti*

From 1957 to 1986 Haiti was ruled by Papa Doc Duvalier and later by his son. During that time their private terrorist force killed between 30,000 and 100,000 people. (1) Millions of dollars in CIA subsidies flowed into Haiti during that time, mainly to suppress popular movements, (2) although most American military aid to the country, according to William Blum, was covertly channeled through Israel.

Reportedly, governments after the second Duvalier reign were responsible for an even larger number of fatalities, and the influence on Haiti by the U.S., particularly through the CIA, has continued. The U.S. later forced out of the presidential office a black Catholic priest, Jean Bertrand Aristide, even though he was elected with 67% of the vote in the early 1990s. The wealthy white class in Haiti opposed him in this predominantly black nation, because of his social programs designed to help the poor and end corruption. (3) Later he returned to office, but that did not last long. He was forced by the U.S. to leave office and now lives in South Africa.

*Honduras*

In the 1980s the CIA supported Battalion 316 in Honduras, which kidnapped, tortured and killed hundreds of its citizens. Torture equipment and manuals were provided by CIA Argentinean personnel who worked with U.S. agents in the training of the Hondurans. Approximately 400 people lost their lives. (1,2) This is another instance of torture in the world sponsored by the U.S. (3)

Battalion 316 used shock and suffocation devices in interrogations in the 1980s. Prisoners often were kept naked and, when no longer useful, killed and buried in unmarked graves. Declassified documents and other sources show that the CIA and the U.S. Embassy knew of numerous crimes, including murder and torture, yet continued to support Battalion 316 and collaborate with its leaders.” (4)

Honduras was a staging ground in the early 1980s for the Contras who were trying to overthrow the socialist Sandinista government in Nicaragua. John D. Negroponte, currently Deputy Secretary of State, was our embassador when our military aid to Honduras rose from $4 million to $77.4 million per year. Negroponte denies having had any knowledge of these atrocities during his tenure. However, his predecessor in that position, Jack R. Binns, had reported in 1981 that he was deeply concerned at increasing evidence of officially sponsored/sanctioned assassinations. (5)

*Hungary*

In 1956 Hungary, a Soviet satellite nation, revolted against the Soviet Union. During the uprising broadcasts by the U.S. Radio Free Europe into Hungary sometimes took on an aggressive tone, encouraging the rebels to believe that Western support was imminent, and even giving tactical advice on how to fight the Soviets. Their hopes were raised then dashed by these broadcasts which cast an even darker shadow over the Hungarian tragedy.“ (1) The Hungarian and Soviet death toll was about 3,000 and the revolution was crushed. (2)

*Indonesia*

In 1965, in Indonesia, a coup replaced General Sukarno with General Suharto as leader. The U.S. played a role in that change of government. Robert Martens,a former officer in the U.S. embassy in Indonesia, described how U.S. diplomats and CIA officers provided up to 5,000 names to Indonesian Army death squads in 1965 and checked them off as they were killed or captured. Martens admitted that “I probably have a lot of blood on my hands, but that’s not all bad. There’s a time when you have to strike hard at a decisive moment.” (1,2,3) Estimates of the number of deaths range from 500,000 to 3 million. (4,5,6)
From 1993 to 1997 the U.S. provided Jakarta with almost $400 million in economic aid and sold tens of million of dollars of weaponry to that nation. U.S. Green Berets provided training for the Indonesia’s elite force which was responsible for many of atrocities in East Timor. (3)

*Iran*

Iran lost about 262,000 people in the war against Iraq from 1980 to 1988. (1) See Iraq for more information about that war.

On July 3, 1988 the U.S. Navy ship, the Vincennes, was operating withing Iranian waters providing military support for Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. During a battle against Iranian gunboats it fired two missiles at an Iranian Airbus, which was on a routine civilian flight. All 290 civilian on board were killed. (2,3)

*Iraq*

A. The Iraq-Iran War lasted from 1980 to 1988 and during that time there were about 105,000 Iraqi deaths according to the Washington Post. (1,2)

According to Howard Teicher, a former National Security Council official, the U.S. provided the Iraqis with billions of dollars in credits and helped Iraq in other ways such as making sure that Iraq had military equipment including biological agents This surge of help for Iraq came as Iran seemed to be winning the war and was close to Basra. (1) The U.S. was not adverse to both countries weakening themselves as a result of the war, but it did not appear to want either side to win.

*B: The U.S.-Iraq War and the Sanctions Against Iraq extended from 1990 to 2003.*

Iraq invaded Kuwait on August 2, 1990 and the U.S. responded by demanding that Iraq withdraw, and four days later the U.N. levied international sanctions.

Iraq had reason to believe that the U.S. would not object to its invasion of Kuwait, since U.S. Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie, had told Saddam Hussein that the U.S. had no position on the dispute that his country had with Kuwait. So the green light was given, but it seemed to be more of a trap.

As a part of the public relations strategy to energize the American public into supporting an attack against Iraq the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the U.S. falsely testified before Congress that Iraqi troops were pulling the plugs on incubators in Iraqi hospitals. (1) This contributed to a war frenzy in the U.S.

The U.S. air assault started on January 17, 1991 and it lasted for 42 days. On February 23 President H.W. Bush ordered the U.S. ground assault to begin. The invasion took place with much needless killing of Iraqi military personnel. Only about 150 American military personnel died compared to about 200,000 Iraqis. Some of the Iraqis were mercilessly killed on the Highway of Death and about 400 tons of depleted uranium were left in that nation by the U.S. (2,3)

Other deaths later were from delayed deaths due to wounds, civilians killed, those killed by effects of damage of the Iraqi water treatment facilities and other aspects of its damaged infrastructure and by the sanctions.

In 1995 the Food and Agriculture Organization of the U.N. reported that U.N sanctions against on Iraq had been responsible for the deaths of more than 560,000 children since 1990. (5)

Leslie Stahl on the TV Program 60 Minutes in 1996 mentioned to Madeleine Albright, U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. “We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And - and you know, is the price worth it?” Albright replied “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price – we think is worth it.” (4)

In 1999 UNICEF reported that 5,000 children died each month as a result of the sanction and the War with the U.S. (6)

Richard Garfield later estimated that the more likely number of excess deaths among children under five years of age from 1990 through March 1998 to be 227,000 – double those of the previous decade. Garfield estimated that the numbers to be 350,000 through 2000 (based in part on result of another study). (7)

However, there are limitations to his study. His figures were not updated for the remaining three years of the sanctions. Also, two other somewhat vulnerable age groups were not studied: young children above the age of five and the elderly.

All of these reports were considerable indicators of massive numbers of deaths which the U.S. was aware of and which was a part of its strategy to cause enough pain and terror among Iraqis to cause them to revolt against their government.

*C: Iraq-U.S. War started in 2003 and has not been concluded*


Just as the end of the Cold War emboldened the U.S. to attack Iraq in 1991 so the attacks of September 11, 2001 laid the groundwork for the U.S. to launch the current war against Iraq. While in some other wars we learned much later about the lies that were used to deceive us, some of the deceptions that were used to get us into this war became known almost as soon as they were uttered. There were no weapons of mass destruction, we were not trying to promote democracy, we were not trying to save the Iraqi people from a dictator.

The total number of Iraqi deaths that are a result of our current Iraq against Iraq War is 654,000, of which 600,000 are attributed to acts of violence, according to Johns Hopkins researchers. (1,2)

Since these deaths are a result of the U.S. invasion, our leaders must accept responsibility for them.

*Israeli-Palestinian War*

About 100,000 to 200,000 Israelis and Palestinians, but mostly the latter, have been killed in the struggle between those two groups. The U.S. has been a strong supporter of Israel, providing billions of dollars in aid and supporting its possession of nuclear weapons. (1,2)

*Korea, North and South*

The Korean War started in 1950 when, according to the Truman administration, North Korea invaded South Korea on June 25th. However, since then another explanation has emerged which maintains that the attack by North Korea came during a time of many border incursions by both sides. South Korea initiated most of the border clashes with North Korea beginning in 1948. The North Korea government claimed that by 1949 the South Korean army committed 2,617 armed incursions. It was a myth that the Soviet Union ordered North Korea to attack South Korea. (1,2)

The U.S. started its attack before a U.N. resolution was passed supporting our nation’s intervention, and our military forces added to the mayhem in the war by introducing the use of napalm. (1)

During the war the bulk of the deaths were South Koreans, North Koreans and Chinese. Four sources give deaths counts ranging from 1.8 to 4.5 million. (3,4,5,6) Another source gives a total of 4 million but does not identify to which nation they belonged. (7)

John H. Kim, a U.S. Army veteran and the Chair of the Korea Committee of Veterans for Peace, stated in an article that during the Korean War “the U.S. Army, Air Force and Navy were directly involved in the killing of about three million civilians – both South and North Koreans – at many locations throughout Korea…It is reported that the U.S. dropped some 650,000 tons of bombs, including 43,000 tons of napalm bombs, during the Korean War.” It is presumed that this total does not include Chinese casualties.

Another source states a total of about 500,000 who were Koreans and presumably only military. (8,9)

*Laos*

From 1965 to 1973 during the Vietnam War the U.S. dropped over two million tons of bombs on Laos – more than was dropped in WWII by both sides. Over a quarter of the population became refugees. This was later called a “secret war,” since it occurred at the same time as the Vietnam War, but got little press. Hundreds of thousands were killed. Branfman make the only estimate that I am aware of , stating that hundreds of thousands died. This can be interpeted to mean that at least 200,000 died. (1,2,3)

U.S. military intervention in Laos actually began much earlier. A civil war started in the 1950s when the U.S. recruited a force of 40,000 Laotians to oppose the Pathet Lao, a leftist political party that ultimately took power in 1975.


*Also See Vietnam


Nepal*

Between 8,000 and 12,000 Nepalese have died since a civil war broke out in 1996. The death rate, according to Foreign Policy in Focus, sharply increased with the arrival of almost 8,400 American M-16 submachine guns (950 rpm) and U.S. advisers. Nepal is 85 percent rural and badly in need of land reform. Not surprisingly 42 % of its people live below the poverty level. (1,2)

In 2002, after another civil war erupted, President George W. Bush pushed a bill through Congress authorizing $20 million in military aid to the Nepalese government. (3)

*Nicaragua*

In 1981 the Sandinistas overthrew the Somoza government in Nicaragua, (1) and until 1990 about 25,000 Nicaraguans were killed in an armed struggle between the Sandinista government and Contra rebels who were formed from the remnants of Somoza’s national government. The use of assassination manuals by the Contras surfaced in 1984. (2,3)

The U.S. supported the victorious government regime by providing covert military aid to the Contras (anti-communist guerillas) starting in November, 1981. But when Congress discovered that the CIA had supervised acts of sabotage in Nicaragua without notifying Congress, it passed the Boland Amendment in 1983 which prohibited the CIA, Defense Department and any other government agency from providing any further covert military assistance. (4)

But ways were found to get around this prohibition. The National Security Council, which was not explicitly covered by the law, raised private and foreign funds for the Contras. In addition, arms were sold to Iran and the proceeds were diverted from those sales to the Contras engaged in the insurgency against the Sandinista government. (5) Finally, the Sandinistas were voted out of office in 1990 by voters who thought that a change in leadership would placate the U.S., which was causing misery to Nicaragua’s citizenry by it support of the Contras.

*Pakistan*

In 1971 West Pakistan, an authoritarian state supported by the U.S., brutally invaded East Pakistan. The war ended after India, whose economy was staggering after admitting about 10 million refugees, invaded East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and defeated the West Pakistani forces. (1)

Millions of people died during that brutal struggle, referred to by some as genocide committed by West Pakistan. That country had long been an ally of the U.S., starting with $411 million provided to establish its armed forces which spent 80% of its budget on its military. $15 million in arms flowed into W. Pakistan during the war. (2,3,4)

Three sources estimate that 3 million people died and (5,2,6) one source estimates 1.5 million. (3)

*Panama*

In December, 1989 U.S. troops invaded Panama, ostensibly to arrest Manuel Noriega, that nation’s president. This was an example of the U.S. view that it is the master of the world and can arrest anyone it wants to. For a number of years before that he had worked for the CIA, but fell out of favor partially because he was not an opponent of the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. (1) It has been estimated that between 500 and 4,000 people died. (2,3,4)

*Paraguay: See South America: Operation Condor

Philippines*

The Philippines were under the control of the U.S. for over a hundred years. In about the last 50 to 60 years the U.S. has funded and otherwise helped various Philippine governments which sought to suppress the activities of groups working for the welfare of its people. In 1969 the Symington Committee in the U.S. Congress revealed how war material was sent there for a counter-insurgency campaign. U.S. Special Forces and Marines were active in some combat operations. The estimated number of persons that were executed and disappeared under President Fernando Marcos was over 100,000. (1,2)

*South America: Operation Condor*

This was a joint operation of 6 despotic South American governments (Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay) to share information about their political opponents. An estimated 13,000 people were killed under this plan. (1)

It was established on November 25, 1975 in Chile by an act of the Interamerican Reunion on Military Intelligence. According to U.S. embassy political officer, John Tipton, the CIA and the Chilean Secret Police were working together, although the CIA did not set up the operation to make this collaboration work. Reportedly, it ended in 1983. (2)

On March 6, 2001 the New York Times reported the existence of a recently declassified State Department document revealing that the United States facilitated communications for Operation Condor. (3)

*Sudan*

Since 1955, when it gained its independence, Sudan has been involved most of the time in a civil war. Until about 2003 approximately 2 million people had been killed. It not known if the death toll in Darfur is part of that total.

Human rights groups have complained that U.S. policies have helped to prolong the Sudanese civil war by supporting efforts to overthrow the central government in Khartoum. In 1999 U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright met with the leader of the Sudan People’s Liberation Army (SPLA) who said that she offered him food supplies if he would reject a peace plan sponsored by Egypt and Libya.

In 1978 the vastness of Sudan’s oil reservers was discovered and within two years it became the sixth largest recipient of U.S, military aid. It’s reasonable to assume that if the U.S. aid a government to come to power it will feel obligated to give the U.S. part of the oil pie.

A British group, Christian Aid, has accused foreign oil companies of complicity in the depopulation of villages. These companies – not American – receive government protection and in turn allow the government use of its airstrips and roads.

In August 1998 the U.S. bombed Khartoum, Sudan with 75 cruise míssiles. Our government said that the target was a chemical weapons factory owned by Osama bin Laden. Actually, bin Laden was no longer the owner, and the plant had been the sole supplier of pharmaceutical supplies for that poor nation. As a result of the bombing tens of thousands may have died because of the lack of medicines to treat malaria, tuberculosis and other diseases. The U.S. settled a lawsuit filed by the factory’s owner. (1,2)

*Uruguay: See South America: Operation Condor


Vietnam*

In Vietnam, under an agreement several decades ago, there was supposed to be an election for a unified North and South Vietnam. The U.S. opposed this and supported the Diem government in South Vietnam. In August, 1964 the CIA and others helped fabricate a phony Vietnamese attack on a U.S. ship in the Gulf of Tonkin and this was used as a pretext for greater U.S. involvement in Vietnam. (1)

During that war an American assassination operation,called Operation Phoenix, terrorized the South Vietnamese people, and during the war American troops were responsible in 1968 for the mass slaughter of the people in the village of My Lai.

According to a Vietnamese government statement in 1995 the number of deaths of civilians and military personnel during the Vietnam War was 5.1 million. (2)

Since deaths in Cambodia and Laos were about 2.7 million (See Cambodia and Laos) the estimated total for the Vietnam War is 7.8 million.

The Virtual Truth Commission provides a total for the war of 5 million, (3) and Robert McNamara, former Secretary Defense, according to the New York Times Magazine says that the number of Vietnamese dead is 3.4 million. (4,5)

*Yugoslavia*

Yugoslavia was a socialist federation of several republics. Since it refused to be closely tied to the Soviet Union during the Cold War, it gained some suport from the U.S. But when the Soviet Union dissolved, Yugoslavia’s usefulness to the U.S. ended, and the U.S and Germany worked to convert its socialist economy to a capitalist one by a process primarily of dividing and conquering. There were ethnic and religious differences between various parts of Yugoslavia which were manipulated by the U.S. to cause several wars which resulted in the dissolution of that country.

From the early 1990s until now Yugoslavia split into several independent nations whose lowered income, along with CIA connivance, has made it a pawn in the hands of capitalist countries. (1) The dissolution of Yugoslavia was caused primarily by the U.S. (2)

Here are estimates of some, if not all, of the internal wars in Yugoslavia. All wars: 107,000; (3,4)

Bosnia and Krajina: 250,000; (5) Bosnia: 20,000 to 30,000; (5) Croatia: 15,000; (6) and

Kosovo: 500 to 5,000. (7)


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

seafish said:


> JFC, I don't even know where to START to answer this naive question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Responsible for" 20-30 million deaths since WWII. Are you sure about that? Let's just take one country not on that list; France. Do you know how many French citizens died during the liberation of France? French cities were decimated. Tens of thousands died yet they ran into the streets hugging and kissing American soldiers when we drove the German army out. Wonder if France would like for Germany to still be there today?

Same with the entire Pacific. I wonder if the Philippines, Guam and all the other pacific islands would want to still be under Japanese control?

Panama: Noriega was using Panama to transport massive amounts of drugs into the US. Should we not have went there and snatched him? I could go on and on from that list.

North Korea: We went to war there to try to prevent the homicidal maniac family that has been in charge since. Do you think the North Koreans would rather live how they are living now or want to live like the South Koreans? 

We have the right to support any person or gov't that will promote democracy. If those countries want to kill their own citizens, that's up to them. Most of those on the list killed their own people. Kinda like how Stalin and Mao Zedong each killed more than 30 million of their own citizens.

This has nothing to do with Alibab but, no country will ever be perfect. The fact remains in our almost 250 years of existence, the US has helped more countries pursue a path of freedom and democracy more than anyone else in history. And it's not even close. There's a reason why almost every country in the world's first call is to the US when they need help.


----------



## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Esscueonly said:


> He called a member a d#@[email protected] and then backtracked to dork. And I'm the rude one.


Calling someone a communist sympathizer is arguably worse.
So his products are made in China, so what, try to live on only 100% American-made products, it can't be done.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

ckirocz28 said:


> Calling someone a communist sympathizer is arguably worse.
> So his products are made in China, so what, try to live on only 100% American-made products, it can't be done.


Hmm, maybe that was a little harsh. ok I'm open to suggestions. What would you call someone to actively does business in a communist country? Oh, had to ad a edit... and repeatedly praises variuos aspects of the country and business principles.


----------



## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Patriot83 said:


> "Responsible for" 20-30 million deaths since WWII. Are you sure about that?


I did not personally make that estimate...a person smarter then me has made it based on his historical research estimates.

While I have no doubt that you will call him a communist stooge, here is a link if you want to investigate his numbers further--









U.S. Wars and Hostile Actions: A List


See also the Nonviolent Actions List. There is a reason that most countries polled in December 2013 by Gallup called the United States the greatest threat to peace in the world, and why Pew found t…




davidswanson.org







Patriot83 said:


> Let's just take one country not on that list; France. Do you know how many French citizens died during the liberation of France? French cities were decimated. Tens of thousands died yet they ran into the streets hugging and kissing American soldiers when we drove the German army out. Wonder if France would like for Germany to still be there today?
> 
> Same with the entire Pacific. I wonder if the Philippines, Guam and all the other pacific islands would want to still be under Japanese control?


Indeed you are correct ... WW2 was a "good war"...that said, it was the LAST "good war" that this country participated in ... despite your hawkish beliefs that US foriegn policy goals remain only noble and oriented towards democracy. 



Patriot83 said:


> We have the right to support any person or gov't that will promote democracy. If those countries want to kill their own citizens, that's up to them. Most of those on the list killed their own people. Kinda like how Stalin and Mao Zedong each killed more than 30 million of their own citizens.


I am not even going to bring up the complicated history of Uktaine and Russia and Putins invasion in reply to this statement,

Rather, feel free to read this CIA approved wikipedia historical entry about Operation Condor in South America--


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor



Or MUCH better yet, simply watch this powerful video about to see just how violently the US supported "democracy" by planning and supporting the military coup in Chile that installed General Pinochet in place of the democratically elected, albeit Marxist socialist, Salvador Allende.






Or maybe you would prefer to watch this video about how the corporation United Fruit Group, with the help of Allen Dulles, one of United's largerst shareholders, who also just happened to be head of the CIA ... and whose brother also just happened to be Pres. Eisenhower's Secretary of State, John Dulles, both started and sponsored the terrible civil war in Guatemala while WW2 was still going on --









Patriot83 said:


> The fact remains in our almost 250 years of existence, the US has helped more countries pursue a path of freedom and democracy more than anyone else in history. And it's not even close.


😂 whether they want that help or not  ...

Heres the full list --


China 1949 to early 1960s
Albania 1949-53
East Germany 1950s
Iran 1953 *
Guatemala 1954 *
Costa Rica mid-1950s
Syria 1956-7
Egypt 1957
Indonesia 1957-8
British Guiana 1953-64 *
Iraq 1963 *
North Vietnam 1945-73
Cambodia 1955-70 *
Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 *
Ecuador 1960-63 *
Congo 1960 *
France 1965
Brazil 1962-64 *
Dominican Republic 1963 *
Cuba 1959 to present
Bolivia 1964 *
Indonesia 1965 *
Ghana 1966 *
Chile 1964-73 *
Greece 1967 *
Costa Rica 1970-71
Bolivia 1971 *
Australia 1973-75 *
Angola 1975, 1980s
Zaire 1975
Portugal 1974-76 *
Jamaica 1976-80 *
Seychelles 1979-81
Chad 1981-82 *
Grenada 1983 *
South Yemen 1982-84
Suriname 1982-84
Fiji 1987 *
Libya 1980s
Nicaragua 1981-90 *
Panama 1989 *
Bulgaria 1990 *
Albania 1991 *
Iraq 1991
Afghanistan 1980s *
Somalia 1993
Yugoslavia 1999-2000 *
Ecuador 2000 *
Afghanistan 2001 *
Venezuela 2002 *
Iraq 2003 *
Haiti 2004 *
Somalia 2007 to present
Honduras 2009 *
Libya 2011 *
Syria 2012
Ukraine 2014 *



Patriot83 said:


> There's a reason why almost every country in the world's first call is to the US when they need help.


Yup...top notch military technology...if your goal is killing people, the highly advanced, forward thinking, and, I should probably also add highly profitable, US military industrial complex does set the standards !!!

And now I am waiting for your reply, HOPEFULLY ONLY AFTER you have watched at least one of, and preferably both of, the TWO videos I posted.


And before you simply tell me to get the hell out of Dodge,
Please know that I DO love this country... and I would love it even more if it could aspire to the higher humanist ideals that it once did, and that you somehow believe it still does, embody, but whose foreign policy lies and actions clearly proves that it no longer does !!!


----------



## ckirocz28 (Nov 29, 2017)

Patriot83 said:


> Hmm, maybe that was a little harsh. ok I'm open to suggestions. What would you call someone to actively does business in a communist country? Oh, had to ad a edit... and repeatedly praises variuos aspects of the country and business principles.


Someone who needs stuff manufactured.
We don't have the manufacturing capacity here.
Like Andy said, quality products can be manufactured in China, it doesn't mean he supports their government's behavior. It's just a necessity to do business there.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

ckirocz28 said:


> Someone who needs stuff manufactured.
> We don't have the manufacturing capacity here.
> Like Andy said, quality products can be manufactured in China, it doesn't mean he supports their government's behavior. It's just a necessity to do business there.


I disagree with that. We need antibiotics and all of them are made in China now. How did we get to the point where we allow most things to be made in a communist country? I don't "need" car audio products made in China. Especially when they are readily available elsewhere. To each their own though.


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

It's amusing and sad that whomever runs this forum has let this thread go this far. Who are the admins here? LOL


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

GotFrogs said:


> It's amusing and sad that whomever runs this forum has let this thread go this far. Who are the admins here? LOL


Finally, we agree


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

I violated the first rule. I'm guilty because I called someone a name. I should be banned. The admins must ban me. It says so below.


----------



## 156546 (Feb 10, 2017)

If the admins don't ban me forever then the rules mean nothing.


----------



## Patriot83 (May 10, 2017)

GotFrogs said:


> I violated the first rule. I'm guilty because I called someone a name. I should be banned. The admins must ban me. It says so below.
> 
> View attachment 329820


Nah, we are adults. Name calling shouldn't upset us. Most people have been called names on here. Besides, I took no offense.


----------



## DaveG (Jul 24, 2019)

GotFrogs said:


> If the admins don't ban me forever then the rules mean nothing.


Or just fall on the sword and do your best Nathan Hale! Not literally but in your case I feel banning is your easy way out. Don’t leave though. The knowledge you share makes you an asset to the community imo.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Seafish the source of that article is very biased to say the least. It kind of reminds of White Supremist articles that slant every problem in the world on people of color.

If your article was true, then it could be used for a strong case between protected borders, a strong military and rid corporation of political leaders. Because that seems to be the three things that were lacking in countries in that article.

My first question is if the USA is the biggest threat to World Peace, then why does most the World always come to us for help when they get into a conflict?

My second question is since the USA is the World's bully, then where are our colonies and slaves? Since this is what happens to most conquered people throughout history.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

ckirocz28 said:


> Someone who needs stuff manufactured.
> We don't have the manufacturing capacity here.
> Like Andy said, quality products can be manufactured in China, it doesn't mean he supports their government's behavior. It's just a necessity to do business there.


"Buying from China's Factories = Supporting China's Government

Because everyone knows without supporting China's Government in China, then you aren't opening a factory in China."


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)




----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

I don't care where my speakers come from. I choose what I use and if anyone thinks they're big and bad enough to bang on my door to tell me otherwise or even attempt to confiscate my speakers, then me and my family will blast them to the ooze where they can meet their God quicker than planned! How dare anyone tell another what to buy, where to buy it from, and how to do their ole lady!

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)




----------



## Dasyce (Sep 22, 2016)

This thread truly sucked BTW. Only thing accomplished is losing a member who contributed, helped members, and sold a legendary product that catered specifically to what most of us are looking for. 

Who are we kidding, we all buy Chinese, USA, German, Italian manufactured products. At least that’s what our GDP as nation indicates. But then again, this is a car audio forum, why are bringing politics into it?


----------



## Porsche (Jun 29, 2008)

Dasyce said:


> This thread truly sucked BTW. Only thing accomplished is losing a member who contributed, helped members, and sold a legendary product that catered specifically to what most of us are looking for.
> 
> Who are we kidding, we all buy Chinese, USA, German, Italian manufactured products. At least that’s what our GDP as nation indicates. But then again, this is a car audio forum, why are bringing politics into it?


oh boo hoo


----------



## Bayboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Dasyce said:


> This thread truly sucked BTW. Only thing accomplished is losing a member who contributed, helped members, and sold a legendary product that catered specifically to what most of us are looking for.
> 
> Who are we kidding, we all buy Chinese, USA, German, Italian manufactured products. At least that’s what our GDP as nation indicates. But then again, this is a car audio forum, why are bringing politics into it?


The better question is why are the same ones doing it and nothing is happening to them?

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


----------



## Grinder (Dec 18, 2016)

Dude engaged tit for tat in a flame war, and then literally requested/demanded his own permaban... Not sure what else there is to say about that.


----------



## KillerBox (Jan 7, 2011)

Dasyce said:


> Who are we kidding, we all buy Chinese, USA, German, Italian manufactured products. At least that’s what our GDP as nation indicates. But then again, this is a car audio forum, why are bringing politics into it?


It is not politics to me. It is the Western World’s values vs. China’s values.

If China will murder its own citizens, then I have a pretty good idea of how they will treat the Western World given the chance.

I already had family members die combating China’s aggression in Korea.

To be honest, I was trying to stay out of this conversation but, when he used something that happen +75 years ago in the USA to justify China’s actions today that are a lot worse, then I had to comment.


----------

