# Need mid bass recommendations



## Patriot_tech

I have decided to put a more extensive system in my GN and plan to make horns a part of it. 

The problem is, I'd like to use a 5 1/4 in the stock door location rather than pods or cutting things up. I'll be running an 880prs, horns, and ESX amps.

Can anyone suggest a 5 1/4 mid bass that will perform best in this situation?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!


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## rexroadj

I have a JBL C508GTI component set that I'm selling....You wont do better then that for midbass............especially for lows out of a 5.25" with horns! IMO. Would prefer to sell the set as a whole but if your interested in the mids alone I would do them for $150.00. Used for a short amount of time in pods setup as coaxials (tweets screwed into the phase plug).....they can handle INSANE amounts of power and provide silly output!


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## Pimpnyou204

I ran my B&C with my ultras and loved them their for sale also if u want message me but you'll be ble to get a set of 5.5 to work with a horn


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## Eric Stevens

B&C has a 5NDL38 that is 90 Db 1w/1m and shoudl do very well for you. Otherwise I would look for a 88 to 90 dB 1w1m driver with at least 3mm of xmax and keep your crossover to 90Hz.

Eric


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## Patriot_tech

Thanks to all for your advice thus far. I will look into all those options and see which best fits my needs and budget.


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## thehatedguy

HECTATE said:


> phl....


Doesn't make 5.25s.


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## fish

Eric Stevens said:


> B&C has a 5NDL38 that is 90 Db 1w/1m and shoudl do very well for you. Otherwise I would look for a 88 to 90 dB 1w1m driver with at least 3mm of xmax and keep your crossover to 90Hz.
> 
> Eric


Eric, 

In your opinion, where would you high-pass the 5NDL38?


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## subwoofery

fish said:


> Eric,
> 
> In your opinion, where would you high-pass the 5NDL38?


Depends on the power but seeing the freq resp, I'd say somewhere around 115Hz-125Hz with at least a 24dB/oct slope. 

Kelvin


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## fish

subwoofery said:


> Depends on the power but seeing the freq resp, I'd say somewhere around 115Hz-125Hz with at least a 24dB/oct slope.
> 
> Kelvin


That low? I was thinking minimum 160hz, plus the impedance rise starts @300hz.


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## bigguy2010

I'm building horns right now and might grab these. Also thought about the JL ZR800-CW.

Worth a shot for the cost. 

The Madisound Speaker Store


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## bigguy2010

Double post.


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## subwoofery

fish said:


> That low? I was thinking minimum 160hz, plus the impedance rise starts @300hz.


Was just stating that it would be the lowest I would go... Planning as a midbass, I'd go 115Hz-125Hz - midrange? Yes you can go much higher @ 250Hz-300Hz... 

Now I'd like to see what Eric suggests 

Kelvin


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## fish

subwoofery said:


> Was just stating that it would be the lowest I would go... Planning as a midbass, I'd go 115Hz-125Hz - midrange? Yes you can go much higher @ 250Hz-300Hz...
> 
> Now I'd like to see what Eric suggests
> 
> Kelvin


Yeah, I was hoping for more in the upper midbass (160-200hz), but 315hz looks like the ticket.


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## Patriot_tech

bigguy2010 said:


> I'm building horns right now and might grab these. Also thought about the JL ZR800-CW.
> 
> Worth a shot for the cost.
> 
> The Madisound Speaker Store


I picked up a pair of these when they were in the hot deals section for the hell of it. I'm getting into the install over the winter so if I don't like them I'll do the B&C's per Eric's recommendation. I will say the Peerless have the biggest surround I've seen on a 5.25".


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## fish

cajunner said:


> thread was a goner, Eric might need prompting to get him into it without horns in the title...



He commented on them earlier in this thread.


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## Eric Stevens

With the 5NDL38 I would try it as low as 90 Hz, remember that it will be -6dB down in power at the xover frequency. This will be ok up to a reasonalbe volume but if you like to play it loud you might want to bring it up as high as 125 Hz. I dont see any real need to go higher.

Eric


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## subwoofery

Guess the impedance rise starting around 250Hz-300Hz doesn't matter much... 

I wasn't too far off with my suggestion  Youhou!!!!!

Kelvin


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## fish

subwoofery said:


> Guess the impedance rise starting around 250Hz-300Hz doesn't matter much...
> 
> I wasn't too far off with my suggestion  Youhou!!!!!
> 
> Kelvin


Weird huh?


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## bigguy2010

What do you guys think the "usable" frequency range is of the ZR800's? I want to run them up to 1.25k, but I doubt they can do it well.


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## thehatedguy

1k or so.


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## bigguy2010

Patriot_tech said:


> I picked up a pair of these when they were in the hot deals section for the hell of it. I'm getting into the install over the winter so if I don't like them I'll do the B&C's per Eric's recommendation. I will say the Peerless have the biggest surround I've seen on a 5.25".


So have you tested either set of drivers? I'd be interested in hearing about either.


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## Horsemanwill

i just got my silver flutes in they are some beefy mids


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## bigguy2010

Horsemanwill said:


> i just got my silver flutes in they are some beefy mids


What size? I loved my 5-1/2's, no matter what I threw at them, they just played it. I've had them for 2 years now, and had them in my car since day 1. I'm considering buying them again, but either the 6.5" or 8" for icing on the cake in the lowend. Don't get me wrong, the 5-1/2's have plenty of midbass in my doors, but my mids will not be in the doors in my future build.


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## Horsemanwill

6.5s

The Madisound Speaker Store

4 of them


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## bigguy2010

Horsemanwill said:


> 6.5s
> 
> The Madisound Speaker Store
> 
> 4 of them


Very nice! You'll love them!


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## Audio Options

are those madisounds really any good? I have a project that i might grab some for


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## bigguy2010

Audio Options said:


> are those madisounds really any good? I have a project that i might grab some for


For the price they're hard to beat.


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## Patriot_tech

bigguy2010 said:


> So have you tested either set of drivers? I'd be interested in hearing about either.


Haven't done anything with them yet. Will post when I do.


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## thehatedguy

I had heard the 6.5s had more bottom than the 8s.


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## thehatedguy

Damn Will, what's taking so long to get these in the car?


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## Horsemanwill

weather and in the process of making new door baffles. these have a bigger cutout then the x65..

not to mention i don't have my horns yet i've been running just my x65 mids for awhile now


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## Horsemanwill

i do like the baskets on these mids tho


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## thehatedguy

Hey slacker, they in yet?


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## Horsemanwill

no lol had to make modifications to my baffle board yet again. so that my grill will fit over it . u drive down here in all this snow and finish it up for me will ya while ur at it make me a baffle board for my subs so i can go ib


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## thehatedguy

Blah blah excuse blah blah


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## Horsemanwill

yes i slack


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## Horsemanwill

on a side note since i has some major water going into my doors i ordered me some xtc baffles to cut in half and put over each speaker.


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## Horsemanwill

hey jason they are in


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## Reece514

Hey, guys. I'm new to car audio an was hoping I could get some advice? I too would like your opinions for a mid recommendation. I am gonna run USD D-2RT horns at 180 watts ( would be 90 @ 8ohms). I was thinking of using Dynaudio Ecotar MW 162 6.5 mids in the kick panels with 200 watts @ 4ohms. The low end is gonna be either a Esotar 1200 with 600 watts or an Ultimo 12 with 1000 watts. Is my mid selection a good one? Where should I cross these over at? 
Thanks in advance.


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## thehatedguy

Optimal, probably not.

But I like Dyns and horns.


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## subwoofery

thehatedguy said:


> *Optimal, probably not.*
> 
> But I like Dyns and horns.


Agreed 

Kelvin


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## FG79

It would be nice to run a pair of midbasses to keep up with horns. 

Pair in the doors, or door & kicks, or even door/kick and rear deck.


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## bigguy2010

Hey guys just a little update on my upcoming build. I recently purchased a 2007 Ford Focus ZX5 with 45k miles !!

I'm building Patrick's horns- the ones with Celestion CDX1-1425's, and the 2" paper-cone mids. I'll be using a W7 for the sub stage, just not sure what size yet. 

So in terms of the mid-bass department I'm still up in the air. The gap I have to fill is between 80-1khz. The mid-basses will be going in the kicks and horns under the dash.


I've considered 6.5" Silver Flute's, 5.25" Peerless SLS's and Dayton's RS line.

Any thoughts?


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## indytrucks

6.5">5.25". And I don't just mean in size. (In most cases) how big are your kicks? Might even look into an 8 if you can for one.


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## bigguy2010

indytrucks said:


> 6.5">5.25". And I don't just mean in size. (In most cases) how big are your kicks? Might even look into an 8 if you can for one.


It depends on the driver in regards to your 6.5">5.25" statement. The 5.25" SLS would be just right IMO. The 6.5" probably wouldn't be best for MY application. 

The kicks are plenty big, could go with an 8", but want to stay as stealthy as possible. Whatever I end up getting I will make fit down there, I'm sure some minor cutting and bending will take place! :beerchug:


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## minbari

indytrucks said:


> 6.5">5.25". And I don't just mean in size. (In most cases) how big are your kicks? Might even look into an 8 if you can for one.


I agree, look at the sensitivity difference. most horns are 110+db 1w/1m. a 5.25 silver flute with a 90db sensitivty. 10 watts to your horns will require 1000 watts to your mids to catch up.


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## subwoofery

Don't remember how sensitive patrick's unity horns are... 

But yeah, for horns? 10" > 8" > 6.5" > 5.25"

Kelvin


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## mattyjman

subwoofery said:


> But yeah, for horns? 10" > 8" > 6.5" > 5.25"
> 
> Kelvin


Oh is that how it works?  no replacement for displacement... or something like that. Honestly, I'd see about a pair of 12's...


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## thehatedguy

Yeah rub it in for those of us who can't do 12s.


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## bigguy2010

minbari said:


> I agree, look at the sensitivity difference. most horns are 110+db 1w/1m. a 5.25 silver flute with a 90db sensitivty. 10 watts to your horns will require 1000 watts to your mids to catch up.



I understand that completely. I'm running a JL 500/5, so that will help some. It's only 25wms to the horns and 100wrms to the mids. 

I'm still worried about the sensitivity but I'm getting better at tuning as the years progress.


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## bigguy2010

subwoofery said:


> Don't remember how sensitive patrick's unity horns are...
> 
> But yeah, for horns? 10" > 8" > 6.5" > 5.25"
> 
> Kelvin


I understand the displacement example here and have no issue going up to maybe a 8". 10" and up isn't going to work and I would think beaming would be terrible at that size of a driver, especially playing down to 80hz.

Hopefully you guys can shed some more light on that subject, I've never even thought about 10" + for mid-bases, but I'm sure the authority would be through the roof.


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## minbari

10" speaker doesnt beam untila bout 1300 hz. since most horns will be crossed lower than that, doesnt really matter.


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## mattyjman

bigguy2010 said:


> I understand the displacement example here and have no issue going up to maybe a 8". 10" and up isn't going to work and I would think beaming would be terrible at that size of a driver, especially playing down to 80hz.
> 
> Hopefully you guys can shed some more light on that subject, I've never even thought about 10" + for mid-bases, but I'm sure the authority would be through the roof.


i had 10's mated with horns in my last install... authority was through the roof and into my chest... it was awesome.


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## thehatedguy

What 10s?


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## bigguy2010

minbari said:


> 10" speaker doesnt beam untila bout 1300 hz. since most horns will be crossed lower than that, doesnt really matter.


Alright, I wasn't aware of this. I'll start reading LOL....


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## FG79

Best to stop at 6.5"/7" and just go multiple drivers over a single 8" or 10".

There are always exceptions to the rule, but the 6.5/7 is a great all around compromise for midbass punch and playing into the midrange. Doubling up, even more so.

And when speaking about car audio drivers specifically, definitely the case. There are 8" and 10" pro/home drivers that can play high and integrate well but they aren't very common and/or cheap.


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## bigguy2010

Any Suggestions?



Any thoughts in the Morel's?

The Madisound Speaker Store


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## fish

bigguy2010 said:


> Any Suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> Any thoughts in the Morel's?
> 
> The Madisound Speaker Store


What bandwidth are you wanting your midbass to play with your horns? You might want to look at us speaker.com, it has high efficiency pro audio drivers that will match up much better with horns, sensitivity-wise.


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## bigguy2010

fish said:


> What bandwidth are you wanting your midbass to play with your horns? You might want to look at us speaker.com, it has high efficiency pro audio drivers that will match up much better with horns, sensitivity-wise.


80Hz - 1.25K. The horns will play lower then that, but my HU's lowest HPF for the high channel is 1.25K. I'm going to run it there and set the amp X-over even lower, but I'm not sure if that will end up working out or not.


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## minbari

if you have an xover on the amp, then why not just set the HU HPF off. if you set the HU HPF to 1.25khz, then it wont make much difference if the amplifier one is set lower.


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## bigguy2010

minbari said:


> if you have an xover on the amp, then why not just set the HU HPF off. if you set the HU HPF to 1.25khz, then it wont make much difference if the amplifier one is set lower.


I would love to, or even set it to full, BUT for whatever reason Pioneer didn't make the 800PRS capabile of this. 1.25K @ -6db is the "widest" setting.


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## minbari

just looked up the manual, that is retarded. maybe put the horns on the "mid", so you can turn the filters off.


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## bigguy2010

minbari said:


> just looked up the manual, that is retarded. maybe put the horns on the "mid", so you can turn the filters off.


If I did that, then my mids would only see 1.25k and up on the high channels.

Very retarded!!!!!


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## minbari

hmmm, any chance the amplifier for your mids have xovers in em? run both mid and horns off the same "mid" output of the HU


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## bigguy2010

minbari said:


> hmmm, any chance the amplifier for your mids have xovers in em? run both mid and horns off the same "mid" output of the HU


Yes the 500/5 should do BP on both front and rear. But if I used mid signal, then my T/A would be all messed up for my front stage.


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## minbari

lol, you are not making this easy.

I guess you are stuck at 1.25khz. that is not a terrible place to cross them anyway, if you have minibodies, you cant go much lower. just set the HU for 24db and leave the amplifier xover off.


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## subwoofery

I use a 6kHz 6dB/oct HP on my full size horns and it works great  

Kelvin


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## bigguy2010

subwoofery said:


> I use a 6kHz 6dB/oct HP on my full size horns and it works great
> 
> Kelvin


What's the catch?


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## fish

subwoofery said:


> I use a 6kHz 6dB/oct HP on my full size horns and it works great
> 
> Kelvin


That's very interesting.


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## thehatedguy

Someone mentioned it a long time a go in another post.


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## mattyjman

thehatedguy said:


> Someone mentioned it a long time a go in another post.


and....?


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## thehatedguy

I was playing around with lspCAD a while back with the FR and imp data of the ultra minihorns with various midbasses to make a passive crossover, and noticed the home horn guys did crossovers for horns a bit differently than the car guys- they will use a shallow slope up high that will take care of the rising FR of the horns (EQ them) and when get down to the roll offo fo the horn will get you a steeper slope at cut off. So I messed around with it after seeing the thread about the passive XO/EQ to see if I could do one of my own.

Well, a 6 dB slope at about 6k will get the FR flat and give you a about a 24 dB slope down around 1.2k. Combine that with a 12 dB slope on the mids gets you a flat FR and a flat phase response- I think the mids have to be polarity reversed for it to work up there, flipping the horns wouldn't do it.

I threw it out there for folks to try since I didn't have a enough amps, a processor, or any way of measuring it...and I think Kelvin tried it out with good results, though I thought he was using minihorns.

Eric said he had done a couple systems like that for wakeboard towers and such.


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## mattyjman

that's very very interesting... 

kelvin, what are your thoughts? with the early cut are you losing any of the "horn" sound? using mini horns? 

Jason, is this horn specific, or more driver specific? 

it sounds like such a simple solution to all the eqing that needs to happen... not sure no one else has ever tried it. although, in the back of my mind, i think it's too simple for the complexities of using horns... it can't be JUST that easy.


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## thehatedguy

Well nearly all (car) horns have a down sloping FR, we are just using the crossover to do a good bit of the EQing work. Different drivers will have more topend and some will have more of a midrange peak.

But driver FR is dependent on the horns they are being used on. You can see some of the effects of the horn by looking at the FR of the driver on the horn and comparing it to the driver on a plane wave tube.

It's not going to get all of the EQing done/tweaked, but it goes a long way of getting most of it (on paper) flattened out. I haven't seen any data on the big ID horns.

You could do some neat things with two crossovers on the horn- one up high like 6-7k and another steeper one down low for more driver protection...I learned a lot about this stuff from modeling crossovers that are used on Unity style horns.


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## thehatedguy

Oh, the high XO point works well in terms of flattening out the impedence bumps too- a horn will have 3 of them. And when we can get the amp seeing a mainly resistive load, it is a good thing (I think)- think about those 3 spikes in impdence and where they are happening in terms of frequency.


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## thehatedguy

Turns out Dr geddes does something similar with the XOs in his speakers too.


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## subwoofery

mattyjman said:


> that's very very interesting...
> 
> kelvin, what are your thoughts? with the early cut are you losing any of the "horn" sound? using mini horns?
> 
> Jason, is this horn specific, or more driver specific?
> 
> it sounds like such a simple solution to all the eqing that needs to happen... not sure no one else has ever tried it. although, in the back of my mind, i think it's too simple for the complexities of using horns... it can't be JUST that easy.


Yep... Jason was the one that point me to the shallow slope thing... 

Why did I try it when my system was sounding great (to me) and I wasn't tuning anymore? Cause I had an A/C problem and the mechanic took out the horns to work behind the dash - he did touch my amp wiring too (dunno why ) 

Then when tuning, I noticed that the MID was glaring/ringing a bit with a 24dB/oct slope (keeping the exact same same Xover point) - nothing like that with a 12dB/oct slope. Read about it and it seems like it depends on the Xover type LR or Bessel

6kHz 6dB/oct is kinda similar to having a 1.2kHz 24dB/oct slope (as per Jason) - doesn't matter to me since I was using a 2kHz 24dB/oct slope before  

It sounds great and much more "relaxed" without loosing the dynamics of the horn (normal since the horn plays a wider bandwith with the new slope) 

Win-win for my system :thumbsup:

Kelvin


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## fish

Makes sense, cutting out some of the peak around 2-4k.


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## subwoofery

cajunner said:


> was the implementation of the shallow slope done by processor or capacitor insertion into the speaker circuit?
> Nope, HU processing (CD7200mkII)
> 
> And the crossover of the midrange was which crossover when 24 db and ringing?
> 2kHz 24dB/oct = ringing
> 2kHz 12dB/oct = no ringing
> 
> And what was the final 12db/oct crossover, and did you or did you not swap polarity at the mid?
> I did not swap the polarity of the mid coz I'm using a 6ND430, here's the freq response:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Played with the slope and liked 500Hz 6dB/oct slope
> Linking the MID and the Horn with T/A
> 
> Dunno, it works
> 
> And was this an option (again) in the processor, or is this a passive circuit build?
> 
> If passive, what microfarad values were chosen to achieve the 6Khz crossover and what driver were you using?
> 
> This should have a complete write-up in the horns section complete with sticky because there are a lot of budget-minded folks out there who could try a second-hand set of horns with some basic passive networks and get good results, this could lead to horns being used more and more in the long term, a good thing I believe..


Using ID CD1e v.3 Full size horn + the 6ND430 like I do, a simple passive circuit with a 6dB/oct could surely work and be easily implemented...

Kelvin


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## subwoofery

cajunner said:


> also, some of the software simulations that were done could be posted, that lead to the popularizing of this technique and although Eric did it in-house for some specialized apps, the technique could be named after the person who did bring it through the tipping point and to the masses, as it were.
> 
> I've been watching this development with interest, as it was first introduced a long time back and each time it's brought up I look forward to the new graphs and measurement data that back up what is happening in the car.... at 7 Khz recommendation first, but here it's 6Khz..
> 
> 
> 6 Khz, 6 db slope (corner frequency)
> 
> 3 Khz, 12 db down (first octave below corner)
> 
> 1.5 Khz, 18 db down (second octave below corner)
> 
> 750 hz, 24 db down (third octave below corner)
> 
> in-car and without any driver/horn attenuation at the low side, this means that you'd have 100 db of 750 hz signal coming out of the horns when the music level averaged 124 db, and if you add the 12 db/oct roll-off of the driver this may bring you down another 10 db or so, which would be 90 db while the rest of your system is chuffing to make 124 db..
> 
> this seems to be borderline for those people who drive their systems into soft clipping for some period of time, I'm pretty sure there is a bit more of a slope that I'm able to present with this crude approximation and that is why a better window into this process is warranted.
> 
> hopefully some of you who have the software display capability can channel your inner Richard Simmons and get cracking on this largely unexplored adjunct into the horn equation..


6 Khz, 6 db slope (corner frequency)

3 Khz, 12 db down (first octave below corner)

1.5 Khz, 18 db down (second octave below corner)

750 hz, 24 db down (third octave below corner) 

Those where my calculations as well and those using a mini body might need an extra protection down low. 
I did read that it was a 7kHz Xover point but I did not have that flexibility... Heck, my Xover isn't really 6kHz, it's 6.3kHz lol 
The next available one was 8kHz - it did not sound bad @ all but the 6.3kHz Xover point sounded more pronounced in the mid-band (totally normal) and I liked this type of sound better...

Kelvin


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## thehatedguy

All of the simulation work was done in lspCAD. You can download the demo version for free, just can't do a speaker with more than 5 drivers at a time and can't save files. Can also do this in Jeff bagby's excellent passive crossover design spreadsheet that is free too. I like lspCAD when doing some crazy unity /synetgy style crossover.

Then you will need both the frequency response and impedence measurements of the drivers on the horns you are planning on using. And play away.

I was lucky to have seen and copied the data on the ultra minihorns in the passive xo /eq thread on here from last year. I was told the values that was used there too. But that was just a circuit for the horns and had nothing to do with the midbasses. Eric has a/the set used in that thread, and I have been trying to get him to measure the values used so I can make a set for myself - lost the email with the values.


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## thehatedguy

I was thinking 6k at 6 db would be more like 3k at 12 down to 1.5k at 24 db. You are halving the frequency while doubling the slope.


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