# Low frequency's on mid woofers.



## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Hi,

I'm listening to a lot of music with very low frequency's on my mid drivers without a sub.

It's obvious some of these tones should be put to a subwoofer. 

I have CDT CL-62 components which are capable of playing down to 55Hz.

I have my HPF set to roughly what I think is 55Hz on my Eclipse XA2000 but I'm not sure how to fine tune it exactly as I don't quite understand the HPF readings. Can someone help me with this?

I'm also having trouble with highway driving noise. I believe most of the noise is coming through the floor of the car. In turn I'm running pretty high volume and I'm worried with some of the heavy tones I'm throwing at the speakers and not being able to hear them 100% clearly that they may be stressing the speakers mechanically with the HPF possibly set incorrectly.

The guy I brought the speakers off recommends subbing the system to overcome road noise rather than a more expensive sound deadening of the floor pan of the car.

Is it true that subbing a system will allow more clarity and certain tones (mainly low I think?) not to be lost to road noise?

My system's just not quite doing what I want it to..


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Just because those speakers have a frequency response down to 55hz does not mean that they should be crossed that low. I wouldn't even cross the best 6.5" below 63hz. I think those speakers would be much happier, sound much better, and last much longer if you bumped the HPF up to 80hz or higher. These aren't subwoofers, and they are not intended to be. If there isn't enough impact at 80hz add a subwoofer, don't push these little things too low. You are significantly increasing the excursion of the driver, causing excess distortion, and potentially damaging the speaker. 

With regard to road noise. Vibration dampening material will stop some of it, but the low frequency road/tire noise usually needs something thicker, with more mass. Mass loaded vinyl would be the proper choice for that, just know that you'll never make a car perfectly quiet, so you need to decide how far you're willing to go to deaden the car. 

Simply trying to overpower the road noise is a terrible way to fix the problem. Sound deadening is one of the most important aspects of a great stereo. A system will never be great without it. 

In summary, if you want significant improvements, you'll need to do some sound deadening, add a sub, and play the mids within an appropriate range.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Thanks for your reply gijoe. 

I think the 6.5's may be happier at a higher HPF cut as well, now I just need to fine tune the HPF on my amp but as mentioned above I can't work out what the levels would be in between the numbers printed on the HPF. I've attached a pic of the HPF.

Ok so sound deadening is still most important but does a sub improve the system quality more than just adding more bass etc? I suppose it's designed to play the lower frequency's more cleanly and louder so maybe this contributes to overall quality?

Is doing the floor pan of a car as simple as just laying Mass loaded vinyl over it then putting the carpet back?


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Kol12 said:


> Thanks for your reply gijoe.
> 
> I think the 6.5's may be happier at a higher HPF cut as well, now I just need to fine tune the HPF on my amp but as mentioned above I can't work out what the levels would be in between the numbers printed on the HPF. I've attached a pic of the HPF.
> 
> ...


Do you have a HPF filter on your head unit? If so, use that instead and set the amp to 500hz. If you don't have a HPF on the head unit, you'll need to approximate the HPF on the amp by using the dashes they provide, but I see how oddly it scales up. If you really want to get it right, you can play test tones and use a multimeter to measure the voltage. Is that something you would be able to do? 

All a subwoofer does is add low end. In fact, it's the least important speaker in the system, since it usually only covers about 2 octaves. A subwoofer will not magically improve the sound quality of the rest of the speaker in the system, but it can take the strain off of the mid bass speakers so they don't have to play as low. Keep in mind, playing a speaker too low is one of the quickest ways to ruin it. You can play a speaker as high as you want without worrying about damage, but you can't play a speaker as low as you want. 

It is that simple, but it's not that easy. I have been doing this for a long time and won't even touch the floor of my car. I've deadened all of the doors, the trunk, the roof, just about every interior panel, underneath the rear seats, etc. but I won't pull up the carpet. It's not worth the hassle to me.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Yeah, I have a HPF on the HU. It can only be activated if the SUB.W output on the head unit is turned on according to the manual. It's lowest cut though is 100Hz which is maybe just a tad to high?

The HPF scale on my amp does seem a bit odd, the difference between 500 and 30 to 50 doesn't really add up.. but if I set anywhere clockwise back from 50 it should be safe though right?

Yes, I'm familiar with the multimeter and test tones, I actually used the method to set my gain but I found there wasn't much difference in just playing the tone and adjusting the gain until it clipped rather than a more accurate setting based on the calculations you make first. Can a similar test be done to set the HPF?

"All a subwoofer does is add low end" 

Hmm, yeah, I realise the front stage is the most important but with taking the strain off the front speakers for low end would that allow the system to play louder while staying clean?

I can imagine taking whole carpet out would be a pain and I would probably be inclined to do a semi proper job and just lift parts at a time. That would only allow me to put mass load vinyl where I could access as well I suppose.


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

Yes adding subwoofers allow you to raise the crossover point and still hear the full spectrum at higher volumes with lower distortion. 

The MLV requires seamless coverage. The more gaps the less effective it will be. If you don't plan to remove the carpet completely it doesn't sound like it would be worth your effort. The whole do it right or don't do it at all.


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Kol12 you really need to hook them back up to their passive crossover until you have a better understanding of what a 6.5 midrange is designed for. Those aren't midbass 6.5's, they don't belong anywhere near 55hz with that amp pushing them.


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## Bminus (Sep 24, 2014)

If you cant figure out the actual numbers on the amp, easiest way to set a HPF is to play a song that has alot of bass.
Maybe one that you remember makes the midwoofers distort (Most rap songs lol). Turn the HPF up to where you think it should be at maybe 100+hz. Play the song at your regular listening level or what you would consider loud, then turn the HPF down till it makes the speakers audibly distort.
Then turn it back up slowly till it no longer distorts.. This should cover most the songs the speaker plays. If you find another song that makes the speaker distort, turn it up some more. 
Very primitive but it works lol.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

V 2the C said:


> Kol12 you really need to hook them back up to their passive crossover until you have a better understanding of what a 6.5 midrange is designed for. Those aren't midbass 6.5's, they don't belong anywhere near 55hz with that amp pushing them.


They are hooked up to the passive crossovers and always have been..

So there's something wrong with my amp now? I'm thinking you might be referring to the amp not having a lot of headroom for musical peaks? Is that correct?

What is it about a midrange that you think I don't understand?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sicride said:


> Yes adding subwoofers allow you to raise the crossover point and still hear the full spectrum at higher volumes with lower distortion.
> 
> The MLV requires seamless coverage. The more gaps the less effective it will be. If you don't plan to remove the carpet completely it doesn't sound like it would be worth your effort. The whole do it right or don't do it at all.


Right, so it's usually lower frequency's that tend to distort?


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Kol12 said:


> Right, so it's usually lower frequency's that tend to distort?


It's not "lower frequency's" that distort, it's any frequency at the low end of a driver's bandwidth. For example: 1kHz isn't really a low frequency, but it's very low for a tweeter. 

The reason 55hz would be bad for a 6.5" is because of how much air has to be moved in order to recreate 55hz at higher levels. It takes higher SPL for lower frequencies to be perceived as "just as loud." In order to move this much air you need displacement. High displacement can come from a large surface (a 15" sub for example) or a smaller surface with more stroke (excursion). A 6.5" speaker only has about a 6" surface, and there is only so much stroke you can get without making a speaker 12" deep. These physical characteristics will affect the low range of a speaker. 

The further (stroke/excursion) a speaker moves from it's resting position, the more distortion that is created. The ideal (for a low distortion setup) excursion of a speaker is not visible, if you can see the cone move in and out, you are going to get more distortion than if the cone is barely moving. So, if you are trying to get 55Hz from a 6.5" speaker, you will need to push it pretty hard. The excursion will be high, therefore the distortion will be high (generally, there are some clever motor designs that combat this pretty well), and you also risk damaging the woofer from over excursion, the suspension is only designed to move so far, and the voice coil can only take so much power.

Adding a subwoofer allows the speaker with more displacement to take care of the frequencies that require a lot of displacement allowing you to bump the HPF up on the mids to keep them from playing too low. 

Let me know if you'd like a more thorough explanation of any of this, I've kept it pretty basic.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

gijoe said:


> It's not "lower frequency's" that distort, it's any frequency at the low end of a driver's bandwidth. For example: 1kHz isn't really a low frequency, but it's very low for a tweeter.
> 
> The reason 55hz would be bad for a 6.5" is because of how much air has to be moved in order to recreate 55hz at higher levels. It takes higher SPL for lower frequencies to be perceived as "just as loud." In order to move this much air you need displacement. High displacement can come from a large surface (a 15" sub for example) or a smaller surface with more stroke (excursion). A 6.5" speaker only has about a 6" surface, and there is only so much stroke you can get without making a speaker 12" deep. These physical characteristics will affect the low range of a speaker.
> 
> ...


Yeah, any further explanations would be great. I'm very interested in getting my setup to sound great.


So why is it then that a speaker like my CDT CL-62 is stated as having a Frequency response of 55Hz-20,000Hz?

Shouldn't this mean the speaker is capable of playing these frequencies? 

The guy who sold me the speakers who is as far as I know very experienced in car audio actually recommended setting the HPF at 55Hz.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Brett who I brought the speakers off explanation for using a sub woofer to compensate for road noise is to tune the sub to the frequencies that are lost with road noise.

Makes sense to me.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

gijoe, you might think that my question about why do my speakers state that they can play a frequency response of 55Hz-20,000Hz sounds like I am not listening to you, I am, just wondering that's all.


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## Vx220 (Nov 30, 2015)

Kol12 said:


> gijoe, you might think that my question about why do my speakers state that they can play a frequency response of 55Hz-20,000Hz sounds like I am not listening to you, I am, just wondering that's all.



It's marketing speak by the manufacturers 

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should...


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Vx220 said:


> It's marketing speak by the manufacturers
> 
> Just because you can, doesn't mean you should...


Right ok, but some 6.5" can play lower better than others right?


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

The passive crossover should be high passing the 6.5 speaker at 125 hz. 2nd order. If you have a phone you may be able to download an rta app.


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## Vx220 (Nov 30, 2015)

Kol12 said:


> Right ok, but some 6.5" can play lower better than others right?


Yes, but just looking at figures probably won't help, even those from the same manufacturer.

They will go lower depending on the volume of the door/cabinet, one may be more suited to your door than another.


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## Vx220 (Nov 30, 2015)

V 2the C said:


> The passive crossover should be high passing the 6.5 speaker at 125 hz. 2nd order. If you have a phone you may be able to download an rta app.


Usually, the passive crossover that comes with a component set just separates the tweeter and mid, relying on the HU, amp or DSP/crossover to HPF the bass away


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Just looked them up and other setups use to use different setups and shared a similar name. It does recommend 100 hz high pass at rated rms power.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Kol12 said:


> gijoe, you might think that my question about why do my speakers state that they can play a frequency response of 55Hz-20,000Hz sounds like I am not listening to you, I am, just wondering that's all.


Because the speakers CAN play 55hz, they just can't do it loudly. They won't be able to play that low at the same level that they will play the higher frequencies. If you keep the volume knob very low they'll play 55hz without any trouble, but the volume will be really low, so you won't perceive 55hz as being adequately loud. Does that make sense?

A tweeter can play down to 500hz, if the volume is very low. But as soon as you turn the volume up to an appropriate listening level, 500hz is going to require too much displacement and the little tweeter is going to die trying to replicate the signal you're sending it.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Kol12 said:


> Right ok, but some 6.5" can play lower better than others right?


Yes, some will play lower, better than others, but not significantly. The size of the speaker (as I mentioned earlier) is a limiting factor. Any speaker with approximately the same cone area, and approximately the same excursion, will play down to approximately the same frequency. 

A 6.5" speaker is a compromise, but it's a logical compromise for a car. It's not easy to fit a big 8" midbass in a car, manufacturers rarely leave enough space for this without major modification. A 5.25" speaker will have a very difficult time playing low enough to blend with a sub, without causing the sub to be easily localizable. 

Subwoofer frequencies are generally omnidirectional, we simply cannot perceive whether or not 40hz is coming from in front of us, or from behind us. This is important to know for good imaging and staging. We want the sound to appear to be coming from a clearly defined stage in front of us, but we can't usually put subwoofers in our dash. That's ok, as long as the subwoofer doesn't play too high. Once the subwoofer starts to play frequencies over about 100-120hz, we can hear where it's coming from, if the subwoofers are behind us (like they usually are) the stage gets pulled backwards, and is no longer clearly defined in front of us. What we do then, is only play a subwoofer as high as we need it to go, 60hz, 80hz, 100hz, depending on how low the mid can play, so we can blend them well. A small 5.25" speaker is going to have difficulty playing low enough to blend with a subwoofer that is still unlocalizable. Thus, the 6.5" speaker. It fits in cars pretty easily, and good ones don't have any trouble playing down to at least 80hz, which is still low enough that you can blend the subwoofer, without pulling the stage backwards.

You run into another problem at the top end of a speaker's response. Physical dimensions also dictate how high a speaker can play cleanly. Although, playing a speaker higher than it's intended range will not damage it, it just won't perform well. The sound waves from a speaker begin to "beam" when the wavelength starts to get too short relative to the diameter of the speaker, so the higher and higher you push a speaker, the more focused the beam of sound will be, and the more important it is to point that speaker right at you (on axis). A typical 6.5" will begin beaming at about 2.1kHz, that means that as you play that speaker higher and higher, the frequency will drop off quickly, unless you are directly in the narrow beam.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

V 2the C said:


> Just looked them up and other setups use to use different setups and shared a similar name. It does recommend 100 hz high pass at rated rms power.


Here is Brett's explanation for the 100Hz high pass recommendation by CDT:

"This is considered the point of where you should tune your speakers if everything including subwoofers are in your set up, if not you must go lower which will lower the power rating, don’t be disappointed as they still pump out the bass at 100 watts plus RMS."


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Vx220 said:


> Usually, the passive crossover that comes with a component set just separates the tweeter and mid, relying on the HU, amp or DSP/crossover to HPF the bass away


I was going to say this as well. My crossover doesn't have any sort of hpf as far as I know.

The crossover I have is the EX-530 24dB 4th/5th order as listed on CDT's website.

Now I have no idea 4th/5th order is? It also mentions the tweeter crossover point as being 4.3kHz.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

gijoe said:


> Because the speakers CAN play 55hz, they just can't do it loudly. They won't be able to play that low at the same level that they will play the higher frequencies. If you keep the volume knob very low they'll play 55hz without any trouble, but the volume will be really low, so you won't perceive 55hz as being adequately loud. Does that make sense?
> 
> A tweeter can play down to 500hz, if the volume is very low. But as soon as you turn the volume up to an appropriate listening level, 500hz is going to require too much displacement and the little tweeter is going to die trying to replicate the signal you're sending it.


I think I'm beginning to understand.


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## trumpet (Nov 14, 2010)

Yes, these speakers should be supported on the low end by a subwoofer. There are a lot of ways to set that up, but even a small single subwoofer ought to be able to fill in the bass much better than these 6.5" components. I typically start with an 80 Hz or so HPF setting with 6.5" or similarly sized speaker sets. 

The 6.5" woofers in CL-62 have a resonant frequency, or Fs, of nearly 80 Hz. As a rule to avoid excessive distorted bass I do not like to high pass mid-woofers below Fs. As CDT updates their speakers the specs change, so the actual 6.5" woofers you own may have a different Fs value. That specification is not normally published in the booklet included in the box. What I'm getting at is I don't like the 55 Hz crossover recommendation but without a subwoofer you're going to have to be careful and turn the volume down if you hear any unpleasant noises coming from the doors.


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

CDT Audio Midwoofer CL-E6

This suggests an Fs of 70hz for these mids. A general rule of thumb is crossing over two octaves above Fs to avoid excessive distortion at 12db/octave. That would be unrealistic because that means 240hz.. Might try 120hz and use 24db/octave if that is an option on your headunit. Some studies suggest most people cannot localize sound even at 120hz. I have used 120hz crossover a few times and if other adjustments are made properly like time alignment, eq, and rattles are controlled, it is really hard to tell where the bass is coming from.

Lucky for us we are also less sensitive to distortion at lower frequencies also. So pushing it to 100hz may not be too bad.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

trumpet said:


> Yes, these speakers should be supported on the low end by a subwoofer. There are a lot of ways to set that up, but even a small single subwoofer ought to be able to fill in the bass much better than these 6.5" components. I typically start with an 80 Hz or so HPF setting with 6.5" or similarly sized speaker sets.
> 
> The 6.5" woofers in CL-62 have a resonant frequency, or Fs, of nearly 80 Hz. As a rule to avoid excessive distorted bass I do not like to high pass mid-woofers below Fs. As CDT updates their speakers the specs change, so the actual 6.5" woofers you own may have a different Fs value. That specification is not normally published in the booklet included in the box. What I'm getting at is I don't like the 55 Hz crossover recommendation but without a subwoofer you're going to have to be careful and turn the volume down if you hear any unpleasant noises coming from the doors.



Ok, the resonant frequency specs are new to me, what is this exactly?

Interestingly I've got the amp crossed at what I think is about 60Hz maybe slightly more, it's hard to actually know exactly as my amps hpf control is a bit confusing (refer to pic on page 1) but where it is set at the moment I'm getting really tight and clear bass response even at high volume. So far I'm not hearing any distortion. 

I am worried though that the crossover point might be pushing the speakers at really high volumes needed for certain highway driving. 
I would prefer to be on the safe side and set a more accurate hpf. If I set to 100Hz on the headunit the low end is majorly lost so this might be ok with a sub but I think I need to find an in between point until then.

Also what I want to mention is Brett who sold me the speakers want's to sell me a Crossfire C5 500.2 V2 to use instead of my Eclipse XA2000. He say's the Crossfire will have way better performance than my Eclipse and claims it has specs of a true 125 watts RMS @ 4 Ohms @ 12.5 volts and 150 watts RMS @ 4 Ohms 13.8 volts.

Now I'm guessing the way better performance has to be from the extra headroom this amp will provide, does that sound right? or is it just a better amp overall? There seems to be good talk of Crossfire audio and Brett only deals with quality car audio.

I'm just looking for some opinions on this as he is offering me a deal to get the Crossfire C5 500.2 V2 and a CDT HD1200CF 12” subwoofer for $799.00 at a retail cost of $1’299.00.

He then recommends running the CDT subwoofer off my XA2000.

Now I could say no and upgrade to a completely different amp if my XA2000 really isn't providing my CL-62's with the performance they need.. Brett has looked over the specs of the XA2000 and doesn't think it's offering the performance the CL-62's are capable of.


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

The Fs is a spec that indicates the resonant frequency. Below this the speakers suspension does not have as much control over the sound reproduced aka creates more distortion.

I think you can find a better deal out there. For $799 you could get a used Audison BitTen a Strong mono amp and at least one good 12". This will give you more control over your system as you learn and a better sound. I don't think adding a little more power to your front speakers will make nearly as much impact as good tuning and a subwoofer.

This could run a solid 12" sub with almost 500 watts, that's enough for most and more than your buddy was recommending. Plus it'll put basically 150 watts to each mid for $180 bucks. If you keep the eclipse you can run the tweeters or however you like.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_38338_Precision-Power-PPI-P900.4.html

There are a few processors like the bitTen available in classifieds right now for less than $350

Here is a solid 12" by Stereo Integrity for $190 shipped.
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...8-satori-stereo-integrity-illusion-audio.html

With a little more research you could have a well tuned active setup with a better sub for less than $750.


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

$800 to power up a $100 sub, Brett has smoked his vegemite. Damn


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

A small power increase will do virtually nothing. It takes double the power to get a maximum 3dB increase, anything less than double the power is negligible, and not really worth the time, effort, and money to switch, unless the new amp is significantly better built. I'm just speculating, (having never owned a crossfire amp) but I highly doubt it will be worthwhile. 

Power isn't going to fix your problems. A decent subwoofer, and a bit of time with the crossovers and levels will make a much bigger difference.


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## zapcoaudio (Sep 26, 2015)

or more dampening...


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sicride said:


> The Fs is a spec that indicates the resonant frequency. Below this the speakers suspension does not have as much control over the sound reproduced aka creates more distortion.
> 
> I think you can find a better deal out there. For $799 you could get a used Audison BitTen a Strong mono amp and at least one good 12". This will give you more control over your system as you learn and a better sound. I don't think adding a little more power to your front speakers will make nearly as much impact as good tuning and a subwoofer.
> 
> ...


Thanks for suggestions on products. Unfortunately for anyone who doesn't know I'm in New Zealand and some of the products you mention aren't available here. To find certain products takes a bit of searching but I sometimes use this site to see what's available Car entertainment - Find the best price, info and review

This may annoy some of you here or make me sound like a noob but I don't know what an active setup is..


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

V 2the C said:


> $800 to power up a $100 sub, Brett has smoked his vegemite. Damn


Remember this is New Zealand currency. Brett say's the CDT HD1200CF 12” subwoofer has a retail cost of $499.00 NZ does this translate to what you would pay usd?

The $800 is for the sub and the Crossfire C5 500.2 V2 with the Crossfire being used to power my fronts instead of my XA2000 not the sub.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

gijoe said:


> A small power increase will do virtually nothing. It takes double the power to get a maximum 3dB increase, anything less than double the power is negligible, and not really worth the time, effort, and money to switch, unless the new amp is significantly better built. I'm just speculating, (having never owned a crossfire amp) but I highly doubt it will be worthwhile.
> 
> Power isn't going to fix your problems. A decent subwoofer, and a bit of time with the crossovers and levels will make a much bigger difference.


I think the keyword here is probably dynamic headroom rather than volume? that the Crossfire will have that my XA2000 apparently doesn't have.

The XA2000 does 100 watts x2 4 ohms so that's not a lot of headroom for my 90 watt speakers is it?

There is talk of the XA2000 being underrated though. 

I do agree that a subwoofer would make a big difference to my system.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm starting to think they put huge markup's on products here in New Zealand.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Potential store for subwoofers: Car Audio Subwoofers | Abtec NZ Online Superstore


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

gijoe said:


> A small power increase will do virtually nothing. It takes double the power to get a maximum 3dB increase, anything less than double the power is negligible, and not really worth the time, effort, and money to switch, unless the new amp is significantly better built. I'm just speculating, (having never owned a crossfire amp) but I highly doubt it will be worthwhile.
> 
> Power isn't going to fix your problems. A decent subwoofer, and a bit of time with the crossovers and levels will make a much bigger difference.


Hi guys,

Just looking for some opinions on a EFX 600c4 amplifier, the Crossfire amp I mentioned is no longer available.

Brett insists the CDT CL-62's have 190W rms per side and that my Eclipse XA2000 isn't driving them to full potential.

If this is true it explains why I'm looking for more clean volume while on the road. 

The EFX 600c4 should provide this with a huge 600W x 2 bridged 4 ohm.

Should I be looking at gaining some db with this amp?


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

What are you trying to improve or change on your system now? We can't tell you if it's worth it if we don't know what you are trying to accomplish. Remember also this is your sound system not Brett's. It kind of sounds like Brett is just trying to unload his old equipment on you. I guess I can't say if the prices are good or not based on different currency and availability in your country.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sicride said:


> What are you trying to improve or change on your system now? We can't tell you if it's worth it if we don't know what you are trying to accomplish. Remember also this is your sound system not Brett's. It kind of sounds like Brett is just trying to unload his old equipment on you. I guess I can't say if the prices are good or not based on different currency and availability in your country.


I'm finding that if the CL-62's are capable of more power/volume that is what I would like to accomplish. 

Around town and sitting in the car they are sounding very good on the Eclipse XA2000, even driving on the highway they are sounding good but are needing a lot of extra volume to compensate for the road noise and I feel they need more volume to keep the sound/music fully audible while remaining clean. 

For example my HU max volume is 50, I set the gains at 45 and with highway driving I'm using 35-38 volume. If I attempt to increase the volume any further I think I'm reaching the limits of XA2000 and am introducing clipping, mainly on the lower frequencies as it's probably demanding a lot from the amp.

It seems to make sense that are more powerful amp is going to address thses issues..


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

PS: The EFX 600c4 is capable of 300W rms x 2 when bridged. What sort of db gain could I expect with another 200W over 100W I'm currently getting?


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

You can expect about a 4.5 dB increase in output and a need for new speakers because these will be blown. 

You do not need more output because these speakers can take more power. You need it to overcome road noise, did I understand that right? 

What kind of sound deadening or noise reduction treatment have you done?

Did you ever add a sub woofer to the system? Are we strictly talking about low frequency or mid bass volume?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sicride said:


> You can expect about a 4.5 dB increase in output and a need for new speakers because these will be blown.
> 
> You do not need more output because these speakers can take more power. You need it to overcome road noise, did I understand that right?
> 
> ...


Did you mean can't take more power? I'm not sure your correct on that, the CL-62's are rated for 190W per speaker..

Yes overcome road noise.

I've sound deadened the doors quite extensively but that's it. I'm confident if I can get more volume that more deadening won't be necessary, the road noise I think will fade off to the background.

I haven't added a sub yet, I want to concentrate on making sure my front stage is set up the best it can be.

I'm talking about the whole lot, low frequencies and midrange, everything needs more volume.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Alternate method and one that works for me: 
Adjust the gains, disconnect everything EXCEPT the mids, play music, turn it up, lower the crossover frequency until they don't sound good and STOP then raise the crossover frequency until they sound good and STOP..
Hook the other speakers back up..


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

That's exactly what we needed to know. I'm glad that you have deadend the doors, if you haven't sealed them preferably with solid panels with sound dampening material on top of that, you are missing opportunity. Also, overcoming road noise will not be done with sound dampening, a barrier of mass loaded vinyl (MLV) will block noise transmission into the vehicle. This will be more effective than adding more power.

I understand those speakers are rated at 190 watts rms with a 100hz crossover, what crossover are you using? Also, if a speaker is rated at 190 watts rms why would you think I am wrong in saying it's unlikely it will handle 300 watts rms? I can guarantee if you put 300 watts rms to these speakers and still have your crossover set under 100hz like you have suggested before, you WILL blow the speakers. If you insist on a lower crossover it should be no lower than 80hz and it should be set using test tones while measuring voltage for a drop when adjusting crossover pot, or an spl meter to measure for a drop of 3 dB at 80hz.

If you want to concentrate on your front stage then you need to support that front stage with a subwoofer. If you do not relieve the front stage of that work load then you are not allowing it to shine. You said it sounds like your amp is overwelmed at higher volumes, it is far more likely that the speakers are. I imagine the speakers are trying to reproduce frequencies they are not meant to at very high volumes. This not only leads to serious amounts of distortion, it could easily lead to speaker failure.

The best advice I can give you, is to take everybody's advice that you asked for. I am not the only one who has said these things, others have already in this thread.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sicride said:


> That's exactly what we needed to know. I'm glad that you have deadend the doors, if you haven't sealed them preferably with solid panels with sound dampening material on top of that, you are missing opportunity. Also, overcoming road noise will not be done with sound dampening, a barrier of mass loaded vinyl (MLV) will block noise transmission into the vehicle. This will be more effective than adding more power.
> 
> I understand those speakers are rated at 190 watts rms with a 100hz crossover, what crossover are you using? Also, if a speaker is rated at 190 watts rms why would you think I am wrong in saying it's unlikely it will handle 300 watts rms? I can guarantee if you put 300 watts rms to these speakers and still have your crossover set under 100hz like you have suggested before, you WILL blow the speakers. If you insist on a lower crossover it should be no lower than 80hz and it should be set using test tones while measuring voltage for a drop when adjusting crossover pot, or an spl meter to measure for a drop of 3 dB at 80hz.
> 
> ...


I'm using a crossover of about 70-80hz (amp knob doesn't have accurate readings.)

Misunderstanding - I didn't say I would like to feed 300W rms to the speakers it's just that this is what the EFX 600c4 is capable of, meaning ample power if needed.

I understand a sub should be used to handle the lower spectrum, I actually have the option to add a sub if I decide to. I'm just trying to make sense of the whole front stage thing and whether my current amp is performing as well as it can be. If my speakers can handle 190W and my amp only has a max of 100W that's a bit of unused speaker potential isn't it?

That may be right that I'm hearing the speakers being overwhelmed rather than the amp as like you said they should be crossed at 100hz to be able to utilize the whole 190W and probably not send to much power to lower frequencies. Remember though that I'm only running 100W rms crossed at 70-80hz in to them.

On the other hand at listening levels of 36-40 that's almost at the maximum of the gains I set on the amp (45 - max 50) and probably reaching the amps max out put. Now listening at a amps near max output probably isn't going to produce the cleanest sound regardless of if it's crossed at 100hz or not, especially if I'm looking for more volume.

I suppose I'm a bit confused as to what I'm experiencing with my system and what it is I think I need although I do still think it is volume which I think it is the amp that doesn't have this because as I said I'm already reaching near max HU volume. I could raise the gains on the amp but all that's going to do is introduce clipping sooner and unwanted noise?

I just don't see how having more power can not be a good thing but then again if someone can justify my Eclipse XA2000 as being adequate then I'm open to that.


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

The XA2000 will get you your 300 @ 4ohms. Probably 450 @ 2ohms. I have one on my wife's sub right now. If you divide the number of lines in between each number on the filters you will get an accurate number for the crossover point. They do that so you can be more accurate where it matters. 63-70 Hz can make a difference but the difference between 407-414hz likely won't.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Theslaking said:


> The XA2000 will get you your 300 @ 4ohms. Probably 450 @ 2ohms. I have one on my wife's sub right now. If you divide the number of lines in between each number on the filters you will get an accurate number for the crossover point. They do that so you can be more accurate where it matters. 63-70 Hz can make a difference but the difference between 407-414hz likely won't.


300 @ 4ohms is bridged to 1 channel though right? I'm currently running it as 2 channel for my components. It's a 100W x 2 @ 4 ohms in 2 channel I believe.

The issue I'm having is seeming to need more volume (power?) when highway driving. The volume I'm already using is very nearing the amps/HU max gain so it's just on the edge of going pear shaped. 

Basically I'm thinking an amp with more power is going to allow that bit of extra volume/headroom that is needed while keeping the signal clean.
I mean if your listening at volumes very close to your amps max gain your very likely to start hearing clipping right?

Don't get me wrong my CDT CL-62's sound absolutely beautiful through the XA2000 but only up until the point where more volume is needed and the amp I think is running out of steam.

Am I right in thinking it's the amp/lack of power causing the volume issues I'm describing?

It seems quite common for the XA2000 to be used for powering subs. Haven't read of many people using them on components. Is there any particular reason for this?


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

This is probablythe link is to your mids specs. CDT makes 10,000 speakers that have basically the same specs give or take 10 watts of power.

http://www.cdtaudio.com/pdf/EF-E6.pdf 

That sub is a little cheaper over here.

http://www.amazon.com/HD1200CF-Audio-2-Ohm-Carbon-Subwoofer/dp/B00CKZE6RQ

I know you're limited to equipment. That Eclipse amp should probably send these speakers to the mechanical limits. The gain on the amp should probably as usual at @ 12 oclock. Check the voltage . Try one side bridged. Those speakers don't need and aren't designed for gobs of power. I would cross them at 100 or 125 and find a subwoofer to cover the rest.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Measure how loud it is in your car when you're cranking it. An 85 db efficiency speaker will play to 120 db on about 13-15 watts a more efficient speaker will require less. With any reasonable gain setting your speakers are probably never seeing more than 30-40 watts at the most, the rest is head room. Do you really need a more powerful amp?

You definitely need a sub, the sound you are hearing is incomplete without it. Do you have any dsp in the chain?


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

I looked at the prices on the links that were posted. Man that sucks. I paid a very little bit more for 3 top tier prs 800 amps compared to what that cdt sub cost over there.


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

It's not really bad when you do the conversion rate.
Focal Expert P30F| Abtec NZ Online Superstore

$379 New Zealand dollars, that is $250 US dollars.


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

By the way an amp at peak output specs usually are rated at .05% distortion or .01% distortion even. I do see that the Eclipse amp you have does rate it's power at 1% THD which is quite a bit higher. Take a look at this graph though.









I understand that is a home audio amplifier but the point is the rate at which distortion increases once it reaches it's limits. So, if your gains are set accurately and your headunit does not reach clipping until Volume 45 and your gains are set to reach maximum wattage (by measuring voltage with a 0db test tone) then you will not get much more than 1% distortion from the amplifier output.

Now, take a measurement of a speaker.








This is a measurement of THD or distortion for a Hertz HV165 6.5" mid that I took recently close range. Now this speaker is rated at 92dB sensitivity for 1 watt at 1 meter. Because I do not have an anechoic chamber I measured at 1" from the cone. So, rest assured I did not have 1 watt of power going to this speaker for this measurement. Yet at 144hz there is 1% distortion. For others, I know my measurement technique is not correct, but for the point it serves the purpose. You can imagine the driver is the weak link for distortion and asking it to play too low of frequency at too high of a volume is more likely to lead to the distorted sound than an amplifier reaching its limits.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Measure how loud it is in your car when you're cranking it. An 85 db efficiency speaker will play to 120 db on about 13-15 watts a more efficient speaker will require less. With any reasonable gain setting your speakers are probably never seeing more than 30-40 watts at the most, the rest is head room. Do you really need a more powerful amp?
> 
> You definitely need a sub, the sound you are hearing is incomplete without it. Do you have any dsp in the chain?


You won't get to 120db on Headunit power


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

DDfusion said:


> You won't get to 120db on Headunit power


I'm talking about with the amp....


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

sqnut said:


> I'm talking about with the amp....


Not happening.


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

DDfusion and sqnut, I like and appreciate each of your points of view. I have noticed you guys have a personal feud going on that is mucking up others threads. This discussion does not help Kol in any way.

Also DDfusion, your arguments are likely to be more successful and less likely to just result in bickering if you offer evidence or support for your statement.

Like this
https://www.mtx.com/splcalculator
or
Peak SPL Calculator

At these sites Kol or sqnut can enter the information discussed here and see that at 6 feet with 85dB sensitivity and 16 watts it would result in 97dB SPL. Even if you add 6dB for corner loading a speaker that's still 103dB. So, sqnut was a little off in this case but his point is made. It still does not require close to 100 watts to reach significant output. But, it will take significantly more than 190 watts to reach rediculous SPL.

To stay relevant to this thread use the 91dB sensitivity of these CL62 component sets discussed here and you'll see they break 100dB at 8 watts if the seating position is on average 6 ft from the speaker. I can assure you that I am more comfortable with volumes in the 85-90dB range for long term listening.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sicride said:


> DDfusion and sqnut, I like and appreciate each of your points of view. I have noticed you guys have a personal feud going on that is mucking up others threads. This discussion does not help Kol in any way.


Your sermonizing is seriously funny


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

sicride said:


> DDfusion and sqnut, I like and appreciate each of your points of view. I have noticed you guys have a personal feud going on that is mucking up others threads. This discussion does not help Kol in any way.
> 
> Also DDfusion, your arguments are likely to be more successful and less likely to just result in bickering if you offer evidence or support for your statement.
> 
> ...


Rework your calculations based on the FACT that the only speaker 6' from you is the sub. Your front stage is 3-4 feet and the loss while there is nominal. Do your home work before trying to be a hero .


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

sqnut said:


> I'm talking about with the amp....


Wait, unless I missed something, a sensitivity of 85db/watt will get you to 97dB with 16 watts. Where did 120dB come from?


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

gijoe said:


> Wait, unless I missed something, a sensitivity of 85db/watt will get you to 97dB with 16 watts. Where did 120dB come from?


Same place everything else he says comes from.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

mmm my bad 128 watts for 106 db


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## zapcoaudio (Sep 26, 2015)

My sub is set @ 50hz
mids @ 80hz
highs @ 200hz


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

sqnut said:


> mmm my bad 128 watts for 106 db


Where's the emoticon wearing a cape? Oh well, this guy will do. :fireman:


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Measure how loud it is in your car when you're cranking it. An 85 db efficiency speaker will play to 120 db on about 13-15 watts a more efficient speaker will require less. With any reasonable gain setting your speakers are probably never seeing more than 30-40 watts at the most, the rest is head room. Do you really need a more powerful amp?
> 
> You definitely need a sub, the sound you are hearing is incomplete without it. Do you have any dsp in the chain?


Really? I would have thought if I was listening to volumes at near maximum that would be driving the amp to near it's maximum gain which would be it's maximum output in this case 100W per speaker.

Maybe I'm confusing wanting more volume when highway driving for needing the frequencies/details that are being lost with road noise for being corrected with a sub rather than more volume.

I still feel it is that bit of extra volume that is needed though and my amp just doesn't seem to have the available headroom. I'm surprised no one else has experienced this.

Maybe I'm looking at this completely the wrong way and it's just that my car is to noisy. 

Anyway I have the option of getting a Massive audio active sub enclosure, keeping the Massive audio sub in it or swapping it with the CDT sub and getting the EFX 600c4 4 channel amp which Brett swears is going to provide better quality and more volume. I can only afford to get one piece to begin with and I'm not sure which is going to make the most significant impact.

I don't have any dsp..


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Kol12 said:


> Really? I would have thought if I was listening to volumes at near maximum that would be driving the amp to near it's maximum gain which would be it's maximum output in this case 100W per speaker..


Music is dynamic, this is not exact and just an example: if you connect a 2-way speaker to a 100 watt full-range channel the tweeter may receive a whopping 10 watts and the woofer may receive 30 watts, where on earth did the other 60 watts go ?

It's available but only the sub frequencies will see that power..


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

The sub!


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

If the Eclipse amp isn't faulty or a fake I would get a sub and bridge it to it. Run those comps on head unit power until you can purchase more equipment.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

gstokes said:


> Music is dynamic, this is not exact and just an example: if you connect a 2-way speaker to a 100 watt full-range channel the tweeter may receive a whopping 10 watts and the woofer may receive 30 watts, where on earth did the other 60 watts go ?
> 
> It's available but only the sub frequencies will see that power..


Sure, but at what volume level is this?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

V 2the C said:


> If the Eclipse amp isn't faulty or a fake I would get a sub and bridge it to it. Run those comps on head unit power until you can purchase more equipment.


So are you suggesting my comps will benefit from a better amp than the eclipse?

I would have used the Eclipse to run a sub but I'm now being offered a Massive Drive 12 which is an active? powered subwoofer in it's own enclosure.

I could discuss buying the CDT HD 1200CFS instead and using my Eclipse to power that.

In a way it would be a shame to lose the Eclipse as I put quite a bit of research into it before buying and it's a bit of a vintage now isn't it?


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

You don't have to buy what your buddies are getting rid of. You would probably be better off focusing on researching a good sub and good sub amp and what kind of box best suited you. Get the best not just what is being offered, go find it. I don't think we can be any more clear to buy a sub. V 2the C even suggested going from 100 watts for your components down to 18 watts from your headunit. That's how adamant we all are that a bigger amp for your highs is NOT the area you need to improve to better enjoy your stereo.

What is your budget and what are some other sources for you to buy audio equipment? I will be happy to try and help you make a better more versatile sub amp combo.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sicride said:


> You don't have to buy what your buddies are getting rid of. You would probably be better off focusing on researching a good sub and good sub amp and what kind of box best suited you. Get the best not just what is being offered, go find it. I don't think we can be any more clear to buy a sub. V 2the C even suggested going from 100 watts for your components down to 18 watts from your headunit. That's how adamant we all are that a bigger amp for your highs is NOT the area you need to improve to better enjoy your stereo.
> 
> What is your budget and what are some other sources for you to buy audio equipment? I will be happy to try and help you make a better more versatile sub amp combo.



I've just been down to my car and set the seat forward to see what the amp is doing at high volume. 

It's not clipping, or at least the clipping indicator is not blinking. 

The speakers seem to be still sounding clean at this volume, can't really hear any distortion so I guess clipping is not an issue at this volume but they are playing very loud and I'm worried that I'm either pushing the amp or the speakers to hard.

The thing is Brett is offering really great prices on the sub and amp. $300 for the Massive drive 12 and $300 for the EFX 600c4.

I've checked the measurements of the EFX 600c4 and I don't think it's actually going to fit under my seat so I might have to pass on that one anyway.

If I go for a sub now I would need the sub plus an amplifier for it as I would be keeping Eclipse to run my comps. That's probably going to cost more than the Massive drive 12 Brett has which is self amplified not requiring buying another amp.

My budget is not big, I could handle doing $300 for the Massive drive 12 now but for anything more expensive I would need to save for it.

Stores: Quality Car Audio

Welcome to Abtec NZ Online Superstore | Bringing the future to you...

Car entertainment - Find the best price, info and review

Jonvy Auto Car Sound Stereo & Security System | Installation Service | Dealer of Car Accessories Auckland


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I think this is the Massive Audio Drive 12. I have the option of swapping the CDT HD 1200 CFS into as well.

MASSIVE DRIVE 12 ACTIVE Tube Ported Enclosure


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I can't believe the prices you guys have in the states, $70 for this

Precision Power PPI BA800.2 2-Channel Black Ice Series Class A/B Amplifier


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## Theslaking (Oct 8, 2013)

What everyone is saying is the Eclipse has plenty more power than you need. It was suggested that since it puts out more than is needed for the front that you should buy the sub that is desperately needed and power it with the Eclipse. I know that each channel on those Eclipse amps will give you 150 + watts when you ask for it. Your speakers will not take it. Get the amp out of your head and figure out what the real issue is. Likely the lack of a subwoofer.


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

Pioneer GMA5602 2-Channel Bridgeable Amplifier
JBL GTO1214| Abtec NZ Online Superstore
Aerpro SB12100N SEALED 12" 305MM SUB BOX - Easy LayBy

Honestly that box is probably not best for you. It sounds like you would want a ported box. I am not good at modeling ported boxes because I have always preferred sealed. I chose those other items based on being reliable names at good prices. The fusion subs may be a good choice as well. I hear they have a decent reputation but are not popular in the states.

I also prefer this route because if you choose to upgrade you aren't stuck with replacing everything. The amp still has a purpose. The sub is still good if you move on to a ported box or dual subs. Best of all Brett hasn't pawned his junk off on you again.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sicride said:


> Pioneer GMA5602 2-Channel Bridgeable Amplifier
> JBL GTO1214| Abtec NZ Online Superstore
> Aerpro SB12100N SEALED 12" 305MM SUB BOX - Easy LayBy
> 
> ...


I don't think Brett is trying to pawn his gear off to me, he actually distributes car audio and has been in car audio for around 20 years, he sounds very experienced.

I think he's actually trying to help me out the best he can based on my financial situation.

Anyway I've decided I'm going to get a Crossfire C5 500.2 amplifier to run my comps with and then when I can afford it use my Eclipse to run a subwoofer most likely the CDT HD-1200 CFS.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

If CDT recommends a hpf of 100hz on the CL-62's to be able run 190W how could you work out how much power would be safe to run with a crossover of 70-80Hz?

Can anyone explain how exactly a hpf works and how it effects the music you are listening to?

If you have a crossover of 70-80Hz set and your listening to a lot of music with lower frequencies than this what does the hpf do?


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

It removes all of the low frequency sound. Everything that is below 80hz is gradually quieter. So, you essentially don't hear the whole song. Those are the frequencies that are more felt than heard, leading to a perception of being "loud" without feeling strained. There's no real way of telling exactly what power is safe at a lower crossover. Best way to tell is to pay attention to them and if they sound stressed or distorted or hear them bottoming out. If CDT offered more specifications and we knew the specs of an enclosure they were in, we could give you a better idea. I would imagine power handling drops rapidly as you approach Fs of a speaker.

I apologize for saying that about Brett. If he works at a car audio shop it is his job and they are probably fair regular retail prices. If this is a retail car audio location and you explained what you want to improve, ask if this amp doesn't fix that will he give you a full refund or exchange. Keep in mind, you would have to double the wattage to even perceive a change between two amplifiers power output. This crossfire amp is rated as 25% more powerful. At the very least you will learn from this experience.


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

You will never know what frequency you are crossed at without analyzing. If you run these speakers full pass on 100 watts I promise you their lifespan will make a mayflies seem like an eternity.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Here's how it works...the lower the frequency the more surface area/excursion will be needed by your speaker to reproduce that frequency. If you've reached the mechanical limits of your speaker then that's it...keep raising the volume if you want to damage it. Until you change something(HPF) then your speaker has run out of steam.

If you require more volume...change the HPF from say 80Hz to 100Hz and you've relaxed the requirements on that speaker...meaning, 100Hz isn't as demanding as 80Hz and you've lowered the previous mechanical requirements so that you can continue to turn the knob clockwise.

None of what I said addresses thermal limits of a driver. You can use speaker modeling software to graph excursion based on frequency and power.


TLDR: If you want more bass, YOU NEED A SUBWOOFER...YOUR MIDS WILL NOT MAKE YOU HAPPY ;P Once you hear that sub playing it'll make your pants tight. More power to the mids will make you think "wtf" and left unsatisfied


Introduction to How Speakers Work - How Speakers Work | HowStuffWorks


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Kol12 said:


> If CDT recommends a hpf of 100hz on the CL-62's to be able run 190W how could you work out how much power would be safe to run with a crossover of 70-80Hz?
> 
> Can anyone explain how exactly a hpf works and how it effects the music you are listening to?
> 
> If you have a crossover of 70-80Hz set and your listening to a lot of music with lower frequencies than this what does the hpf do?


How Filters Work - Animations.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sicride said:


> It removes all of the low frequency sound. Everything that is below 80hz is gradually quieter. So, you essentially don't hear the whole song. Those are the frequencies that are more felt than heard, leading to a perception of being "loud" without feeling strained. There's no real way of telling exactly what power is safe at a lower crossover. Best way to tell is to pay attention to them and if they sound stressed or distorted or hear them bottoming out. If CDT offered more specifications and we knew the specs of an enclosure they were in, we could give you a better idea. I would imagine power handling drops rapidly as you approach Fs of a speaker.
> 
> I apologize for saying that about Brett. If he works at a car audio shop it is his job and they are probably fair regular retail prices. If this is a retail car audio location and you explained what you want to improve, ask if this amp doesn't fix that will he give you a full refund or exchange. Keep in mind, you would have to double the wattage to even perceive a change between two amplifiers power output. This crossfire amp is rated as 25% more powerful. At the very least you will learn from this experience.


That's ok about Brett, maybe you didn't realize he works in and sells car audio.

I'm glad I found out about Brett and purchased my CL-62's off him as he is really knowledgeable about car audio. He also is really helpful and will explain car audio over the phone for hours compared to probably any other car audio store around.

I think that is reasonable to ask about returning the Crossfire amp if it doesn't do what I thought it might do.

I'm pretty sure Brett has told me that the Crossfire amp will provide more dynamic headroom, not necessarily adding a whole lot more volume but making the speakers play a lot more clearer and detailed.

I'm pretty sure he said this amp will do up to 150W rms per channel as well.

I think he said with having more power that any low frequencies that you do have coming through the speakers will be better handled by the amp allowing for a cleaner sound at the higher volumes.

So do filters basically just lower the volume of the frequencies being filtered rather than actually "cut" them off? I mean if you had set your hpf that it was actually cutting off half of the frequency of a kick drum for example wouldn't that make the kick drum sound weird?


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

Kol12 said:


> That's ok about Brett, maybe you didn't realize he works in and sells car audio.
> 
> I'm glad I found out about Brett and purchased my CL-62's off him as he is really knowledgeable about car audio. He also is really helpful and will explain car audio over the phone for hours compared to probably any other car audio store around.
> 
> ...


The problem with your understanding is that more power does not make a speaker play clearer or more detailed. More power adds increases the SPL, that's it. Headroom is nice to have if you listen to music at high levels (but even then, at high levels your ears physically restrict the amount of sound they process, eliminating details), but extra power is mostly to keep the amps from running at their ragged edge.

Consider this: A midwoofer with 87dB of sensitivity (1 watt at 1 meter) will play 108dB with 128 watts. If you have an amp with close to that RMS power, you will still be able to reproduce the peaks cleanly. Now, 108dB is very loud, nearing the threshold of pain, and more than about 30 minutes at levels this high will cause permanent damage to your hearing. Considering what I said earlier about our ear's ability to protect itself by tightening the muscles in your head, at 108dB, those peaks that you are worried about reproducing won't be audible. Sound quality becomes irrelevant at sound pressure levels that high.

What's my point? The point is, adding more power will add SPL, not detail. A 50-75 watt amplifier can reproduce dynamics perfectly at the sound pressure levels where details are perceivable. Add more power if you want more volume, add more power if you want to stress the amp less, but don't add more power thinking you're adding detail at listening levels that matter.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

When people say that db level can cause damage can you just add that is only true with noise


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

It's also nice to have that power when the windows are down.


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## gijoe (Mar 25, 2008)

DDfusion said:


> When people say that db level can cause damage can you just add that is only true with noise


Haha, that's absurd! What is the difference between sound and noise? Any sound, noise or tone, at high sound pressure levels can cause damage.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

DDfusion said:


> It's also nice to have that power when the windows are down.



This is exactly my point, the idea of needing more power or volume is only when some sort background noise is intruding and in my case it's road noise when highway traveling.

Sure 108db might be screaming loud if your just sitting in your car without the engine running but it is still screaming loud when you add about 70db of road noise to the mix? I don't think so..

I'm surprised that this is not basic knowledge in car audio and that people seem to think I'm confused or something. Surely everyone who has car audio finds they need to increase the volume more to compensate for road noise? More specifically highway noise as that seems to be louder..


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## brumledb (Feb 2, 2015)

108db is 108db no matter which way you slice it. If you need 108db just to hear the music clearly, you should probably invest in some sound deadening.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Is it correct that the peak power ratings on amplifiers is another word for dynamic power?

My Eclipse XA2000 has a peak power of 120W, continuous is 100W. Many other amps seem to have much higher peak or dynamic powers. Is there any reason why the Eclipse and perhaps other amps peak powers are smaller?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

brumledb said:


> 108db is 108db no matter which way you slice it. If you need 108db just to hear the music clearly, you should probably invest in some sound deadening.


I'm not saying I turn my volume up to 108db I just used it as an example.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

It's different. 
Example
Some of use have had 150db sub stages. Listened to them all day. No issues.
Now Go stand beside a fighter jet powering up on a carriers catapult for just a second with no protection. 

Huge difference. It's the frequancy range the levels at at. Higher the frequancy the harder it is on you.


Not so absurd is it?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

As Brett was explaining to me the other day low frequencies are actually responsible for most of the db or volume we perceive.

A subwoofer is going to add the db's or volume increase needed for the low frequencies that are being lost due to the road noise interference rather than mid range volume.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Four pages of soul searching and we still haven't figured out that all we need is a 4 ch amp with 2 channels running the fronts and the other two bridged to a sub. Done.

For the life of me I can't wrap my head around, why the OP is hell bent on not running a sub. In terms of cost the difference is nominal and it's better to save up for a month and do it right. With a sub, you have speakers that can reproduce 20-20khz in a meaningful way, this after allowing for things like road noise etc. Without the sub you-re probably getting nothing from 20-60 and whatever your mid bass are making above 60 is being lost to cancellation issues from incorrect L/R timing and your noise floor. It doesn't make a difference if you throw a zillion watts at the 6.5, it is not going to do much in the 20-60 range, the cancellations will still be there and you'll continue to lose a ton of mid bass to the noise floor.

The other thing I can't figure out is this Brett dude. On the one hand the OP swears by him and on the other runs everything he says by the forum to check on its veracity. 

Kol, audio wise there are a lot of folks on here smarter than your friend Brett and to learn, you have to first accept that what you've been told / your ideas, notions, beliefs, could be wrong. If you are so set in your thinking that tons of power on 6.5 mids will solve your problem, go ahead try it and find out for yourself if you are satisfied or still underwhelmed. At least that way you'll be open to learning next time round.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Four pages of soul searching and we still haven't figured out that all we need is a 4 ch amp with 2 channels running the fronts and the other two bridged to a sub. Done.
> 
> For the life of me I can't wrap my head around, why the OP is hell bent on not running a sub. In terms of cost the difference is nominal and it's better to save up for a month and do it right. With a sub, you have speakers that can reproduce 20-20khz in a meaningful way, this after allowing for things like road noise etc. Without the sub you-re probably getting nothing from 20-60 and whatever your mid bass are making above 60 is being lost to cancellation issues from incorrect L/R timing and your noise floor. It doesn't make a difference if you throw a zillion watts at the 6.5, it is not going to do much in the 20-60 range, the cancellations will still be thee and you'll continue to lose a ton of mid bass to the noise floor.
> 
> ...


First of all I'm not hell bent on not running a sub and never have been. I don't swear by Brett, it's just that I happened to find out about him and brought my speakers off of him, it turns out he has been in car audio for 20 years and sounds very experienced. The reason I'm running these thing past the forums is because I want to learn and learn more. I was never set on thinking more power to my mids was going to be what would address my issues hence why I come to the forum to ask for ideas, solutions and what might be the reason for what I am experiencing.

Also what makes you think I'm not open to learning? That's basically the reason I'm here. I'm not quite sure where your coming from.


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Kol12 said:


> First of all I'm not hell bent on not running a sub and never have been. I don't swear by Brett, it's just that I happened to find out about him and brought my speakers off of him, it turns out he has been in car audio for 20 years and sounds very experienced. The reason I'm running these thing past the forums is because I want to learn and learn more. I was never set on thinking more power to my mids was going to be what would address my issues hence why I come to the foru[m to ask for ideas, solutions and what might be the reason for what I am experiencing.
> 
> Also what makes you think I'm not open to learning? That's basically the reason I'm here. I'm not quite sure where your coming from.


Really? This is just one issue you wanting to believe that your mids can compensate for the lack of a sub as long as you give them enough power.



Kol12 said:


> I'm finding that if the CL-62's are capable of more power/volume that is what I would like to accomplish.......It seems to make sense that are more powerful amp is going to address thses issues..





Kol12 said:


> Did you mean can't take more power? I'm not sure your correct on that, the CL-62's are rated for 190W per speaker..
> 
> 
> I haven't added a sub yet, I want to concentrate on making sure my front stage is set up the best it can be.
> ...


This is the real problem. 



Kol12 said:


> I still feel it is that bit of extra volume that is needed though and my amp just doesn't seem to have the available headroom. I'm surprised no one else has experienced this.
> 
> Anyway I have the option of getting a Massive audio active sub enclosure, keeping the Massive audio sub in it or swapping it with the CDT sub and getting the EFX 600c4 4 channel amp which Brett swears is going to provide better quality and more volume. *I can only afford to get one piece to begin with and I'm not sure which is going to make the most significant impact.
> *
> I don't have any dsp..



So get the powered sub and be done with it. Than save up a bit if you want bigger amps. Is your Eclipse a 2ch or a 4 ch? If it's 4 just bridge to channels to an un powered sub, you'll get a lot more real watts to the sub vs the likely crappy amp in the powered sub.


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## 1fishman (Dec 22, 2012)

Road noise sucks. My 2nd gen Honda Odyssey really gets loud on some highways. I have never measured it but I'd guess it's over 80 dB on certain roads. I've done a lot to quite it, but nothing yet has got it near as quite as my wife's Toyota Sienna. On the highway there is no way my system could be even remotely satisfing without a Sub. Even in my wife's van a small sub makes a big difference.


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

Let's be honest Kol. We are all probably a little frustrated because you came here telling us what Brett said and asking for advice. Our advice hasn't changed for days and 4 pages of replies. Brett has gone back and forth with whatever best suits him at the moment. Probably just trying to FINALLY sell you SOMETHING. You continually disagree with us after asking for our help, then ask us to educate you. Once you better understand what we say and I wasted a lot of my time trying to help you find a better solution for your budget, you just say f' it, I'm going to do whatever I wanted to originally because the Holy Brett says it'll help and he'll give me a deal. Now that Brett agrees with all of us, it's magically correct.

Glad we could help.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Kol12 said:


> First of all I'm not hell bent on not running a sub and never have been. I don't swear by Brett, it's just that I happened to find out about him and brought my speakers off of him, *it turns out he has been in car audio for 20 years and sounds very experienced.* The reason I'm running these thing past the forums is because I want to learn and learn more. I was never set on thinking more power to my mids was going to be what would address my issues hence why I come to the forum to ask for ideas, solutions and what might be the reason for what I am experiencing.
> 
> Also what makes you think I'm not open to learning? That's basically the reason I'm here. I'm not quite sure where your coming from.


1) There's probably at least 200 years worth of experience that has posted.

2) *Brett is an idiot.*

3) Raise your HPF and the speakers will play louder

4) Buy a sub




> Also what makes you think I'm not open to learning?


The fact you've ignored the above for 4 pages despite the number of ways it's been presented. If you search...this comes up all the time.


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

I could have ran my ZR800s without a sub. People use the Hybrid L8s without a sub. 
Are you going to get 30hz, barely.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Kol, there are people here 1000 times more knowledgeable than Brett and they have no reason or motive to mislead you, we want you to have quality sound in your vehicle, that is the entire purpose behind this forum is to help people like you get better sound in their vehicle, trust me on this !! 

Until you add a sub, you just don't know what you're missing and once you add a sub you'll be able to hear your music more clearly at lower volumes because road noise is ALL low frequency noise and it's drowning out your components..

When i first came here i was a bit like you and had been fed some wrong information, I'm also thick skinned and a little stubborn and it took time to break some pre-conceived notions but now I've got SQ and SPL and probably one of the best sounding systems I've had the pleasure of listening too, it sounds so good i make up excuses for a road trip..

You'll get there but *please* open your mind and let us edit all those pre-conceived notions, you are family here at DIYMA so have faith


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## sqshoestring (Jun 19, 2007)

You need minimum of 6x9 or 8" to go no sub and have it sound reasonable.

You can try a powered sub or under seat sub, here you can get one for 100-150. They don't shake the car but they help, lot of people run them with weak stock systems, they have a hard time with amplified systems.

Better to run an amp and sub box, unless you can do an IB mount from a trunk/etc. You don't have the coin get used.

Another issue is how your mids are mounted, a weak mount leads to weaker bass.

You can go after noise from the source, get some peel and stick from the hardware store and do the wheel wells and nearby floor areas, lot of road noise comes from the tires. Keep working on it, but you can reduce it. When I was a kid I would go to the boneyard and find a lincoln or cadillac, and tear the carpet out and take the padding out from under it. I'd install it under the carpet of my old used car and it made a huge difference. This was usually a rugwool type padding. I went through a lot of cars back then trying to get something nicer each time.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

gstokes said:


> Kol, there are people here 1000 times more knowledgeable than Brett and they have no reason or motive to mislead you, we want you to have quality sound in your vehicle, that is the entire purpose behind this forum is to help people like you get better sound in their vehicle, trust me on this !!
> 
> Until you add a sub, you just don't know what you're missing and once you add a sub you'll be able to hear your music more clearly at lower volumes because road noise is ALL low frequency noise and it's drowning out your components..
> 
> ...


Thanks, because I'm getting the feeling that no one want's to help me anymore just because of my lack of understanding, doesn't seem fair.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


> 1) There's probably at least 200 years worth of experience that has posted.
> 
> 2) *Brett is an idiot.*
> 
> ...


I don' think Brett is an idiot, he told me from the beginning that a sub would be needed to tune the road noise frequencies out but it's only taken me until now to realize it wasn't something to do with the mid drivers as well.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Really? This is just one issue you wanting to believe that your mids can compensate for the lack of a sub as long as you give them enough power.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you've missed some of the more recent posts. I've decided to pass on the Massive Audio 12, instead I'm going to get a Crossfire C5 500.2 to run the comps with, hold on to my Eclipse which is 2 channel btw and use this to run a sub with.

I can't see how I can lose with doing this, I would have needed another amp to run a sub anyway. The Crossfire might be a bit better than the eclipse for the comps and I've heard the Eclipse XA2000 is quite nice for running subs off.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sqnut said:


> Really? This is just one issue you wanting to believe that your mids can compensate for the lack of a sub as long as you give them enough power.


This is the original issue and tbh I never "believed" giving more power to the mids for compensate for a sub. I was just curious to know if more power would allow me to run my mids a bit louder to deal with some of the road noise.

But it's become clear that this isn't how it works and that low frequencies are responsible for the most db's requiring adding a sub to the system.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Kol12 said:


> This is the original issue and tbh I never "believed" giving more power to the mids for compensate for a sub. I was just curious to know if more power would allow me to run my mids a bit louder to deal with some of the road noise.
> 
> But it's become clear that this isn't how it works and that low frequencies are responsible for the most db's requiring adding a sub to the system.


Bingo,,, now you're on the right track !!

A sound system without a subwoofer is like a diesel without a turbocharger, it just isn't finished


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Kol12 said:


> Thanks, because I'm getting the feeling that no one want's to help me anymore just because of my lack of understanding, doesn't seem fair.


C'mon if you think with a calm mind for a bit, you will realize that peoples patience was running thin. The issue is not your lack of understanding, we've all been in your shoes so we wouldn't pick on you on that count. The real issue is that despite multiple people telling you essentially the same thing, not much seemed to make it past your mental filters and the Bret filter. By all means ask more questions and you will get answers, just learn to be open to them even if go against what you and Bret think.......and lastly keep Bret out of the discussions. You'll do just fine here and hopefully learn a lot.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Kol12 said:


> I don' think Brett is an idiot, he told me from the beginning that a sub would be needed to tune the road noise frequencies out but it's only taken me until now to realize it wasn't something to do with the mid drivers as well.


It may be a difference in use of words but a subwoofer doesn't tune road noise. It can certainly play above it though.

Only way to deal with road noise is to start treating the interior to transmit less noise, play the music louder, or both


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

I also doubt Brett is an idiot. I think Brett is a person with an agenda, to sell you something. At some point it is easier to agree with a customer to some extent and let them believe they are right in order to sell them something. We are not trying to sell you anything so there was no point in letting you believe something that didn't make sense. I gave you a good option darn close to your price point that will get the job done now and is upgradable in the future if you so desire. It is now up to you, do you want to spend a bunch of money now on an amp that will not improve the sound of your system at all until you can afford to purchase a sub? Or do you want to spend about the same amount of money to completely transform your system into something you can be proud and content with? At least for a while.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sqnut said:


> C'mon if you think with a calm mind for a bit, you will realize that peoples patience was running thin. The issue is not your lack of understanding, we've all been in your shoes so we wouldn't pick on you on that count. The real issue is that despite multiple people telling you essentially the same thing, not much seemed to make it past your mental filters and the Bret filter. By all means ask more questions and you will get answers, just learn to be open to them even if go against what you and Bret think.......and lastly keep Bret out of the discussions. You'll do just fine here and hopefully learn a lot.


Exactly where was I disagreeing with what anyone was saying here?

Sure, it turns out the answer to my original issue is to add a subwoofer rather than more power to my mids and that's fine, thanks for explaining/helping me with this. 

Tbh, I'm sure there a lot experienced people here but I also believe Brett is as well so I don't think there is any need to not consider is opinions on anything either.

I appreciate people's suggestions on gear as well and I'm sure there is plenty of good gear around but I decided to go with CDT. I will most likely go for a CDT subwoofer as well as I think it will complement my mids nicely and work they way CDT intended it to. Hopefully people can support me in what I'm trying to do.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sicride said:


> I also doubt Brett is an idiot. I think Brett is a person with an agenda, to sell you something. At some point it is easier to agree with a customer to some extent and let them believe they are right in order to sell them something. We are not trying to sell you anything so there was no point in letting you believe something that didn't make sense. I gave you a good option darn close to your price point that will get the job done now and is upgradable in the future if you so desire. It is now up to you, do you want to spend a bunch of money now on an amp that will not improve the sound of your system at all until you can afford to purchase a sub? Or do you want to spend about the same amount of money to completely transform your system into something you can be proud and content with? At least for a while.


I don't think Brett has a sales agenda, I think he's genuinely passionate about the industry and wants to provide people with the best sounding system they can get but yeah sure, anyone's gonna try and sell you something if they can.

I also know that Brett deals with nothing but high quality gear like CDT, Zapco, Crossfire and Massive audio.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


> It may be a difference in use of words but a subwoofer doesn't tune road noise. It can certainly play above it though.
> 
> Only way to deal with road noise is to start treating the interior to transmit less noise, play the music louder, or both


Well this is the whole point of my thread, overcoming road noise, and I'm choosing the play the music louder path. So far I think the general consensus is that a more powerful amp won't allow the mids to play louder but raising the crossover on the mids and adding a subwoofer will correct?


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Kol12 said:


> I also know that Brett deals with nothing but high quality gear like CDT, Zapco, Crossfire and Massive audio.
> 
> Well this is the whole point of my thread, overcoming road noise, and I'm choosing the play the music louder path.


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Kol12 you need to hit up some spl forums. Those guys know noise. They'll weld up a panel then loosen the bolts on the same panel. I honestly don't think you can be helped here.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

V 2the C said:


> Kol12 you need to hit up some spl forums. Those guys know noise. They'll weld up a panel then loosen the bolts on the same panel. * I honestly don't think you can be helped here*.



If anybody knows how to approach issues with road noise it's this forum. Hell, we even have a guy who has been testing the quality and price/performance of every deadener available. It's not a fly by approach either. My first inclination on deadening came from SPL guys who covered everything with everything...talk about a monkey ****ing a football. Sounddeadenershowdown.com was created by a member from this site. Check it out PLEASE.

With all due, respect, I don't believe KoL has even read through the links provided or attempted to understand the information that has been spoon fed. Furthermore, I doubt he's searched these topics. It's quite fickle that he writes it all off as our opinion vs. Brett's.

Why are we competing with Brett? We're not. And unfortunately for Brett as well as fellow members, this site has had many of the industry leaders pass through AND LEAVE because of people like him, KoL, and yourself pandering to the idea that this whole conversation is very subjective...when it's not.


EDIT:

I apologize for being abrasive but this whole thread is absolutely ridiculous. We shouldn't have to prove anything. It's written down somewhere and Kol should be able to read it and decipher on his own. He just isn't. Lead a horse to water...blah blah blah


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Kol12 said:


> Well this is the whole point of my thread, overcoming road noise, and I'm choosing the play the music louder path. So far I think the general consensus is that a more powerful amp won't allow the mids to play louder but raising the crossover on the mids and adding a subwoofer will correct?


I'll bite...again.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/member-reviews-product-comparisons/146403-sound-deadening-cld-testing.html

http://sounddeadenershowdown.com/


Also...please go through this site as well

Basic Car Audio Electronics


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

Not to mention didn't SDS owner start his company by testing CLD for this forum? I know he's a member here now. So is the owners and founders of second skin. Those are 2 of, if not THE, best noise reduction companies that exist.

Let's be honest Brett sells products members here DESIGN. Audio Frogs owner and founder, Andy, is a main contributor of knowledge here. Andy used to be a big wig engineer for JBL/Harman Kardon before starting his company. Audio Frog is considered the premium line offered at many top retailers in the US that also carry lines like Arc Audio, German Maestro, JL Audio, etc. 

Brett is a salesperson and if that's not what he's trying to do while providing great customer service, he will go out of business or be fired. Brett's input should be considered and processed to come up with your own idea of what's best for you. It is only a poor decision to consider information from him as unchallengeable fact and reject information from here.

The point is we are getting this knowledge from the best. We have processed it and are offering it back to you. If you want to read it in their words search the forum.

By the way with more experience and time in this hobby you will learn there are much better quality products out there that Brett is not offering you. Zapco amps are still very good but the rest of those lines I would say are slightly better than entry level.


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


> If anybody knows how to approach issues with road noise it's this forum. Hell, we even have a guy who has been testing the quality and price/performance of every deadener available. It's not a fly by approach either. My first inclination on deadening came from SPL guys who covered everything with everything...talk about a monkey ****ing a football. Sounddeadenershowdown.com was created by a member from this site. Check it out PLEASE.
> 
> With all due, respect, I don't believe KoL has even read through the links provided or attempted to understand the information that has been spoon fed. Furthermore, I doubt he's searched these topics. It's quite fickle that he writes it all off as our opinion vs. Brett's.
> 
> ...


My rides get deadened. Peel and stick was mentioned earlier so I was waiting on the monthly discussion about that but it didn't happen. He stated he is taking the noise over noise approach anyway so it's moot. He needs loud things to go above loud things so subs, amps, subs...SPL forums >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

V 2the C said:


> My rides get deadened. Peel and stick was mentioned earlier so I was waiting on the monthly discussion about that but it didn't happen. He stated he is taking the noise over noise approach anyway so it's moot. *He needs loud things to go above loud things so subs, amps, subs...SPL forums >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*.


Ok...let's spin the last 4 pages to validate your point. He hasn't been over-thinking subs. He's over-thinking his mids + new amp for a little more bass. If he's this hesitant to add one sub what makes you think he's ready for SMD forums?


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Spin all you want. He isn't hesitant to buy a sub. He's short on funds and wanting to get louder without using deadener. He has said as much and with basic reading skills is easy to decipher. So with that in mind what would you buy? Deadener? No, why? Because he already said he is going to match noise with louder noise. A sub? Yes, why? Because he already has an amp he can bridge to it and it is the fastest path above the road noise. But you keep beating that deadener horse.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

V 2the C said:


> Spin all you want. He isn't hesitant to buy a sub. He's short on funds and wanting to get louder without using deadener. He has said as much and with basic reading skills is easy to decipher. So with that in mind what would you buy? Deadener? No, why? Because he already said he is going to match noise with louder noise. A sub? Yes, why? Because he already has an amp he can bridge to it and it is the fastest path above the road noise. But you keep beating that deadener horse.


Lol...k



Edit: fixed.



I800C0LLECT said:


> 1) There's probably at least 200 years worth of experience that has posted.
> 
> 2) *Brett is an idiot.*
> 
> ...


----------



## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


> Lol...k
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: fixed.


LOL >>>>>>>>>>>>


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

V 2the C said:


> Kol12 you need to hit up some spl forums. Those guys know noise. They'll weld up a panel then loosen the bolts on the same panel. I honestly don't think you can be helped here.


Maybe I should of been clearer, I actually want to retain SQ while being able to hear everything. If that means further deadening then I will have to look at this as well but tbh I think it may only be a matter of a few db's that is needed to accomplish this so I've got nothing to lose in adding a sub and raising my mid's hpf filter first.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I800C0LLECT said:


> If anybody knows how to approach issues with road noise it's this forum. Hell, we even have a guy who has been testing the quality and price/performance of every deadener available. It's not a fly by approach either. My first inclination on deadening came from SPL guys who covered everything with everything...talk about a monkey ****ing a football. Sounddeadenershowdown.com was created by a member from this site. Check it out PLEASE.
> 
> With all due, respect, I don't believe KoL has even read through the links provided or attempted to understand the information that has been spoon fed. Furthermore, I doubt he's searched these topics. It's quite fickle that he writes it all off as our opinion vs. Brett's.
> 
> ...


Competing with Brett? Over what? I think everyone need's to take a breather, get back to the question at hand and think a bit more calmly and logically.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Like other have said, by properly quieting and deadening the interior of the vehicle you will gain BOTH volume and SQ. 

Think of it this way…you will no longer be wasting amps/power to gain "dBs" while trying to overcome the road noise and ALSO the road noise will no longer be interfering with some frquencies of your midbass, allowing you to achieve a more balanced sound and tune. Please note that this statement might NOT be linguistically accurate, but it does more or less describe some of the benefits of PROPER vehicle deadening in a HOPEFULLY easy to understand way.


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

Agreed. I'd buy a sub and then buy some actual deadener, not peel and stick that has been recommended.


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## LumbermanSVO (Nov 11, 2009)

Kol12 said:


> If that means further deadening...


Yes, do that. I measured before and after, and even without my full interior back in, I had a 6DB reduction in road noise. That's HUGE! Before I needed 4x as much power to overcome the road noise as I do now.


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

Let's be a little more clear about that for him, otherwise we could lead him down another dead end. He states he already has done some deadening, so it is more about noise reduction which is better achieved by blocking sound transmission with MLS and decoupling. A 3 dB increase in volume will sound 3 dB louder but it will also cause more distortion also could lead to hearing damage. However, reducing noise 3 dB will sound 3 dB louder produce LESS distortion and cause less hearing damage. All good things.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

LumbermanSVO said:


> Yes, do that. I measured before and after, and even without my full interior back in, I had a 6DB reduction in road noise. That's HUGE! Before I needed 4x as much power to overcome the road noise as I do now.


Interesting that you say you needed 4x as much power to overcome the road noise. Was that more power you needed to your mid's as well as subs? Did that require having much more powerful amps and speakers? 

It's becoming more clear that further sound deadening will offer the best result but I'm just curious as to how much power you actually would require to overcome road noise without it. Are we talking something like 200W rms to your mids and 600W to a sub? It's interesting, take a good component set, run in it your living room and it would probably sound like a good home theater setup. Take it back to your car, hit the highway and everything changes. I mean obviously that's the road noise and this is car audio after all!


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

You aren't just competing with road noise. I believe everything heard within 20ms of the initial sound is perceived together. So you aren't hearing just the speaker...you're listening to the car.

All of these discussions have taken place over the years across MANY MANY pages. There's really no reason to rehash. When you have specific questions about specific circumstances it's much easier to help. It sounds like you already have an idea of how 6 decibels is related to power requirements. That's pretty great

Here's some good links to read...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/94500-list-usefull-diyma-threads.html

For your sub...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/129299-designed-sealed-ported-explained.html

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/95379-secrets-amplifier-speaker-power-requirements-revealed.html

Technical & Advanced Car Audio Discussion - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

EDIT: Great info on this page about vehicle response...

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/technical-advanced-car-audio-discussion/11579-flat-response-5.html


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

Kol12 said:


> *Interesting that you say you needed 4x as much power to overcome the road noise. *Was that more power you needed to your mid's as well as subs? Did that require having much more powerful amps and speakers?
> 
> It's becoming more clear that further sound deadening will offer the best result but I'm just curious as to how much power you actually would require to overcome road noise without it. Are we talking something like 200W rms to your mids and 600W to a sub? It's interesting, take a good component set, run in it your living room and it would probably sound like a good home theater setup. Take it back to your car, hit the highway and everything changes. I mean obviously that's the road noise and this is car audio after all!



FYI...Andy has won the respect of judges who have never before heard a vehicle "SO DYNAMIC" with just 18 watts a speaker. Application is a big deal. Although it's trendy to have gobs of power and head room it's not always required.

His current AudioFrog demo vehicle is 24 channels at 50 watts. Some of those could be bridged though.


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

V 2the C said:


> Agreed. I'd buy a sub and then buy some actual deadener, not peel and stick that has been recommended.


If you want "cheap" and "good" - there are many far better than peel and stick.

GTMat Onyx comes to mind...I used this stuff 3 years ago and it has held up perfect. No peeling, no loosening, no black gunk melting, and this is in south Texas summers.


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## V 2the C (Mar 12, 2015)

I would think hard about buying another 2 channel amp. I don't think it would be good a purchase. I would go subwoofer, deadener, 4 channel amp. You are in a sq forum and sooner or later active will probably cross the mind. A 4 channel puts you in front of the 8 ball.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

V 2the C said:


> I would think hard about buying another 2 channel amp. I don't think it would be good a purchase. I would go subwoofer, deadener, 4 channel amp. You are in a sq forum and sooner or later active will probably cross the mind. A 4 channel puts you in front of the 8 ball.


A 4 channel? Why?


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

therapture said:


> If you want "cheap" and "good" - there are many far better than peel and stick.
> 
> GTMat Onyx comes to mind...I used this stuff 3 years ago and it has held up perfect. No peeling, no loosening, no black gunk melting, and this is in south Texas summers.


Gtmat did almost as bad as the peel and seal in the tests. Not sure if it was the onyx model though

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Well, I'm getting more and more unhappy with my system and I think the reason is that my car is just too noisy!

Sit in the car on the driveway with the engine off and it sounds like a Hi-fi system but drive out of town and it sounds like a small battery powered radio!

Basically I'm losing all musical frequencies in the mid and lower ranges and hearing nothing but piercing shrill by turning it up trying to hear the lower 
frequencies the kind that makes you want to turn it down..

I realize this is my first time doing car audio but I'm starting to lose hope and I don't want to. I think part of my despair is that I can't afford to do anything more system wise at the moment and I'm stuck with a good component set that only sounds good in the driveway.. I also think to myself is deadening the whole floor pan and adding subs going to beat the road noise? 

*Frustrated* Is there any hope worth holding on to?


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Sorry guys I'm just at some disbelief I can get the sound I want. That cabin noise is such a #*%@


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## DDfusion (Apr 23, 2015)

Cover the entire interior in MLV. And if the seals are leaking, replace them. It will sound like a high end benz


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Kol12 said:


> Sorry guys I'm just at some disbelief I can get the sound I want. That cabin noise is such a #*%@


In very basic terms, are you still bogged down because you're not clear/convinced about what to do, or have you moved to the next stage of what you should do first? 

How long do you plan on keeping this car? If it's a short term kind of deal then remember that, while you can move the amps and speakers to the new car, your investment in deadening this car(beyond sealing the doors), is a dead investment. I would only do it if I was keeping the car long term and AFTER I added a 4ch and sub. 

We're on the sixth page and we're still telling you the same thing .


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## sicride (Oct 26, 2014)

^^I do love that we are all still trying to help him though. Shows great commitment to sharing the love of high fidelity sound with a person who has potential to truly appreciate the hobby.

Btw, I think what we're all trying to say is, "BUY A F'ING SUB ALREADY!" Any sub, preferably a good one, but any will do.


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## I800C0LLECT (Jan 26, 2009)

It'd be awesome if we could get you to the NC BBQ. I think it would shed some light on all of this


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## therapture (Jan 31, 2013)

SkizeR said:


> Gtmat did almost as bad as the peel and seal in the tests. Not sure if it was the onyx model though




Definitely not the Onyx. The plain gtmat is indeed like peel and seea or similar. Onyx is actually heavy butyl with real foil.


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## seafish (Aug 1, 2012)

Kol12 said:


> Sorry guys I'm just at some disbelief I can get the sound I want. That cabin noise is such a #*%@


So did you end up doing any of the proper 3 layer sound deadening that some of us were telling you to do?? 

If not, that is where you need to focus your efforts. 

If you are confused as to how much of what to buy and how to do properly install it, just check out the sds website and maybe even order from them. While it may cost you a little more, you know that you are getting the best products that WILL help quiet the interior of your car when installed correctly. It is possible that he even has a kit available for your car.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

sqnut said:


> In very basic terms, are you still bogged down because you're not clear/convinced about what to do, or have you moved to the next stage of what you should do first?
> 
> How long do you plan on keeping this car? If it's a short term kind of deal then remember that, while you can move the amps and speakers to the new car, your investment in deadening this car(beyond sealing the doors), is a dead investment. I would only do it if I was keeping the car long term and AFTER I added a 4ch and sub.
> 
> We're on the sixth page and we're still telling you the same thing .


I'm at the stage of what should I do first/next. Please understand my financial situation is not the best at the moment as I'm not currently working. I've decided I cannot afford the gear I did want currently but want to get something that is going to improve my sound in the mean time that is more financially in reach and I'm thinking that could be the Massive Audio active sub I mentioned earlier. 

Some of you might not agree but my plan was to get the Crossfire C5 500.2 V2 to run my comps and to use my Eclipse to run a CDT subwoofer, actually it is still my plan but here is my issue, I would probably be able to pay a deposit on the Crossfire amp, pay the rest off and have the Crossfire but it then might be a long while before I could afford the sub. 

To get the cdt sub first or any other non active sub would require buying another amplifier which I think would be a waste of money as I would still like to get the Crossfire to run my comps at some stage anyway and that would then leave the Eclipse with no use.

The Massive Audio 12 would be manageable and it could improve my sound temporarily.

What do you think? I know most people here believe subbing the system will make the next most noticeable difference.

Depending on the cost I might consider MLV. I don't see me moving this car on anytime soon but I don't plan to keep it forever.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

just found this from here: The Subwoofer DIY Page - Projects : A car subwoofer with cabin gain compensation

"There are some problems with this "theory" though. First of all, cabin gain isn't an exact 12dB/octave - there is some loss at lower frequencies as the cabin isn't perfectly sealed. Secondly, there is the problem of the masking effect of road noise (the main reason why a car audio system that's tweaked to have a perfectly flat response sounds thin on the road)."

What does he mean "by having a system that's tweaked to have a perfectly flat response sounds thin on the road"?

Is he referring to the low frequencies lost to road noise? Is this something to do with higher frequencies as well?


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

Kol12 said:


> I'm at the stage of what should I do first/next. Please understand my financial situation is not the best at the moment as I'm not currently working. I've decided I cannot afford the gear I did want currently but want to get something that is going to improve my sound in the mean time that is more financially in reach and I'm thinking that could be the Massive Audio active sub I mentioned earlier.
> 
> Some of you might not agree but my plan was to get the Crossfire C5 500.2 V2 to run my comps and to use my Eclipse to run a CDT subwoofer, actually it is still my plan but here is my issue, I would probably be able to pay a deposit on the Crossfire amp, pay the rest off and have the Crossfire but it then might be a long while before I could afford the sub.
> 
> ...


At the end of the day just go with what you can afford. If that means a powered sub for now, just do it.


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## gstokes (Apr 20, 2014)

Kol12 said:


> .. I've decided I cannot afford the gear I did want currently but want to get something that is going to improve my sound in the mean time that is more financially in reach


why not just buy a loaded, ported and powered subwoofer enclosure for $250 and call it a day, when your financial situation improves sell it and buy what you want but you may find yourself quite satisfied..


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

Don't buy anything until you can afford what you want 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## sqnut (Dec 24, 2009)

SkizeR said:


> Don't buy anything until you can afford what you want
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Under normal circumstances you're right, but I don't see that happening to OP for a while, he's said so himself.


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## SkizeR (Apr 19, 2011)

sqnut said:


> Under normal circumstances you're right, but I don't see that happening to OP for a while, he's said so himself.


Hey, took me 3 years

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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

I think getting the powered sub now might be the wiser decision. I mean it's probably going to make a more significant difference to my system rather than improving the amp for the comps first.


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## Kol12 (Nov 20, 2015)

Theslaking said:


> The XA2000 will get you your 300 @ 4ohms. Probably 450 @ 2ohms. I have one on my wife's sub right now. If you divide the number of lines in between each number on the filters you will get an accurate number for the crossover point. They do that so you can be more accurate where it matters. 63-70 Hz can make a difference but the difference between 407-414hz likely won't.


Can you help me with these number divisions? Not exactly sure how to do it..


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