# Erin's HT Room (for real this time)



## ErinH

I think most of you guys knew that I have been building a new home. You may also know I built one about 4 years ago. That first one was going to house an epic HT room. When that first mortgage bill came in, though, that plan was put on hold and it never made it to see the light of day. We decided to sell and build again. This time my wife was on board. I first designed an EPIC HT room. Then the quotes came back and there was no way I was going to be able to afford that. So, I scrapped an entire upstairs room. That left me with the bonus room over the garage to use as my HT space. To make a long story short, I wired it up for 9.4 simply because wire is cheap. Front height, rear wide, 2 sub outputs up front and 2 in the back. We plan to be in this house for a very long time and I wanted to go ahead and get it wired up for future proofing just in case.

I have (2) 20 amp breakers for the HT closet which is at the back of the room. I don't see me ever really needing it and I know it's not 60amp like some folks on the av forums have but it's realistic and that's good enough for me. 


Initially I wanted to have all the cool stuff, but I also have to keep a level head about this. I won't be using it a lot and it's illogical for me to spend a ton of money on this project. Sometimes it's easy to get caught up in the forum mentality where you subconsciously are competing with some guy you've never met or trying to appease someone else's suggestion even though it's not the best choice for yourself. I've gotten caught up in that too many times. Over the past couple years I've really gotten more self aware of this and have to hit the kill switch on my brain sometimes. When I had a kid I didn't change right away. But as she got older I definitely changed my outlook on life. It grounded me. I sometimes miss having the crazy budget to fulfill ideas but the dose of reality that is supporting a family has kept me from getting crazy with things.. In a good way. 

Aaaaanyway, here are a few build pics:


----------



## ErinH

One thing I did do early on was dampen the rattles from the overhead can lights. Everyone tells you to do this and I adhered the advise. I went through the room with the hammer and hit each piece of the framing to see if I heard any rattles anywhere. The can lights were a very legitimate issue (no surprise there). I was surprised, however, to hear a can rattle when I hit a piece of wood 2 studs over. Interesting that the transmission carries so far. The cans are sliding cans and while the sliding mechanism caused some rattles, the largest contributor by far was the wiring box itself. I initially wrapped the problem areas with electrical tape but that was silly. So, I went back and used silicone to keep them from rattling. Before drywal went up, I tested everything again and was good to go. 

I took a video of this and put it on youtube (link below). I know this is a pretty common thing but someone who isn't familiar with it may benefit and I'm always down to help someone else save themselves headaches later on. 

Can light rattle - YouTube


----------



## ErinH

Here's where I'm currently at....


I likely won't be ordering anything right away but this at least gives me a budget to shoot for. I've been working a lot of OT to build up some funds to complete this. I'm shooting to have it done by November.

I already own the speakers I plan to use, down to the (6) AE IB15's I purchased last year for the project. Here's a picture of the HT room with some gear sitting in the floor begging to be opened (Kef R500, R200c, & AE IB15's):









As it stands my speaker list consists of the following:
Kef R500 (L/R Main)
Kef R200C (Center)
Kef Q100 (L/R Surround)
(6) AE IB15

As for the AE's... they may not even be used. I've been really having some doubts about going that route for a few reasons but I'm going to hang on to them until I know for sure I won't be using them. So, AE's aside, I'm also juggling a few different ideas. Depending on how I plan to implement it, I could wind up using any combination or multiples of the following:
SI HT18
Dayton Ultimax 15
Dayton Ultimax 12
I already have a Behringer EP2500 for sub amp duty.


After going back and forth on various Denon models, I settled on the 2313ci. It has good power ratings and the features I want at a very good price since it's an outgoing model. One other feature I need from an AVR is 2nd zone control for the back porch. We like to play in the backyard and I'm tired of hearing my iPhone speaker. I purchased outdoor speakers a couple months ago and wired them up. Just gotta apply power and source. The Denon AVR's through airplay are awesome. I can control it all through my phone from outside (track, and volume). That makes my life easy.

I considered stepping up to the xt32 Audyssey mainly to get the SubEQ processing (processes two subs independently). But that means a significant jump in price up to at least $1200 (the AVR-X4000 is the cheapest Denon AVR with this tech in it). It does a lot of other stuff, but the selling feature *to me* would be the SubEQ. That's an incredible amount of money to do what I know I can do myself with a miniDSP and room treatments, so I'm going to use the miniDSP Balanced board for subwoofer control. Ultimately that nets me a very good compromise in budget and needs/wants. I don't want to spend a ton of money but I know myself well enough to know that if I don't do it right the first time I'm just going to change it again which costs more money in the long run. 

For projection, the Epson 8350 is a few years old but I've not read a single thing bad about it yet. And Epson apparently has one of the best warranty departments in A/V, judging from the reviews and threads on other forums. The 8350 refurb clocks in @ $899. Seems to be the best value hands down. I don't care about 3D or 2.39. 

All of the above means speakers, AVR and PJ are decided on. Screen size is likely going to stick at 106". So, I'm looking at monoprice or DIY. I need to do some research there and determine where the value is (factoring in cost and personal time). That shouldn't be too hard. 

After all this is purchased and installed I'll start determining room treatments needed. I've got all the experience and measurement gear I need there but I know it's going to be a process. I'm hoping the dual sub configuration + miniDSP trials will net me something that doesn't require extensive LF-targeted treatment. Cause that stuff ain't cheap. Nor is it entirely easy when you're talking high Q modes and varying seated locations.

All in all, I feel I've done due diligence. The single most important factor to me is speaker-to-room interaction. That's why I placed more budget emphasis on the speakers I chose. Nothing I've laid ears on can even remotely touch these Kefs. I just wish I was able to afford the big brother version with the dual 8's as opposed to the dual 5.25's for midbass in the R500. Though, the distributed subs should be able to alleviate that concern.


----------



## fast94tracer

looks like your goona have one sweet HT!
always wanted to do this myself and i have the room to do it but it all comes down to money and priorities .

cant wait to see it finished

forgot to ask what size screen you'll be running and what your plans are for the wall treatment?


----------



## claydo

Sounds like you got yer shiznit together, after all. You seemed so stressed on it in your initial rant, it seems we all rushed to your aid in the calming factor, thinking back on your history of knowledgeable posts, and your thorough knowledge in all things audio........I should have known you were just venting! I too posess a space, unfinished, with great plans of a monumental home theater........that has been on hold for like 9 years......... so for now my modest. 5.1system sits in my living room. So I for one, am jealous of your progress........looks like your dreams will come to fruition before mine......but one day.........


----------



## claydo

........but as you are probably aware of......... because of the ease of miraculous sound in a dedicated listening room, its just gonna intensify your quest for sq in your car. Of course we all know how frustrating that is!


----------



## chad1376

What an awesome space. I'm curious what the acoustics are like with the relatively narrow and deep room, especially with the vaulted ceiling corners.


----------



## fast94tracer

thats why i asked him what he plans to do with the walls. something will have to be done about reflection of light and sound.


----------



## Kevin K

"... because of the ease of miraculous sound in a dedicated listening room, its just gonna intensify your quest for sq in your car. Of course we all know how frustrating that is!...."

His car is already taken care of. I can't imagine it being any better than already is.

Congrats on your new house and your play room, it's looks identical to my over the garage room that we are using as a rental/apartment for our niece.


----------



## TrickyRicky

Sound panels can be installed (but not sure if their cheap, at least not the commercial grade). I installed a few sound panels for a church (in Turner Falls, OK), Warren Theater (Moore, OK), Gaylord College (Norman, OK) and a few others I can't remember.

Here's a link. We used Armstrong.


Here's a PDF/data page for wall sound diffusers.


----------



## claydo

Kevin K said:


> "... because of the ease of miraculous sound in a dedicated listening room, its just gonna intensify your quest for sq in your car. Of course we all know how frustrating that is!...."
> 
> His car is already taken care of. I can't imagine it being any better than already is.
> 
> Congrats on your new house and your play room, it's looks identical to my over the garage room that we are using as a rental/apartment for our niece.


Yes, I've heard the civic, sounds great. Now that being said, leave a treated listening room, sit in a great sounding car.......then re-read my post from above. Its just so much easier in a large, open well insullated environment. A basic setup at home can be hard to beat in a car, the size and depth of stage, the tonality, the lack of reflections. Now with a well thought out home setup, like the one Erin's planning, is going to be rediculously hard to touch.......in a car. Not saying impossible, just challenging.


----------



## ErinH

fast94tracer said:


> thats why i asked him what he plans to do with the walls. something will have to be done about reflection of light and sound.





bikinpunk said:


> After all this is purchased and installed I'll start determining room treatments needed.


As mentioned in my Post #3, I'll have to wait and see. Placement of the sub(s) really will determine the extent. I've already got a few 2x4 ft sheets of 2" thick Roxul to play around with (link). I've been using it in my speaker testing space to kill higher frequency early reflections. It buys me about 3ms of reflection free response which took my initial resolution from about 300hz to about 150hz resolution.


----------



## ErinH

claydo said:


> Yes, I've heard the civic, sounds great. Now that being said, leave a treated listening room, sit in a great sounding car.......then re-read my post from above. Its just so much easier in a large, open well insullated environment. A basic setup at home can be hard to beat in a car, the size and depth of stage, the tonality, the lack of reflections. Now with a well thought out home setup, like the one Erin's planning, is going to be rediculously hard to touch.......in a car. Not saying impossible, just challenging.


I definitely appreciate the comments on the car system, guys. Really nice things to say. And truth be told, you didn't even get to hear it in a condition that I felt was complete (Kevin heard it with no subs playing and Clay heard it when my mid/tweeter crossovers were JA-HACKED U-HUP. lol. 

But, I do agree that it's a different animal. I'm already on the downslide of car audio at this point so I don't see myself losing sleep over trying to get the car like the bonus room. I'm actually gearing the car more toward a set of personal goals. I'll finish out the year competing and if I do well that's great. But I'm shifting priorities off winning comps toward a different direction. I'm at least going in to the future with the understanding that a winning comp tune sounds great. But fretting over a point here or a point there has caused me to lose the fun aspect and I really just want to get that back. But, I digress. We can pick this convo up in my car build thread if you guys wanna. Just say the word.


----------



## ErinH

TrickyRicky said:


> Sound panels can be installed (but not sure if their cheap, at least not the commercial grade). I installed a few sound panels for a church (in Turner Falls, OK), Warren Theater (Moore, OK), Gaylord College (Norman, OK) and a few others I can't remember.
> 
> Here's a link. We used Armstrong.
> 
> 
> Here's a PDF/data page for wall sound diffusers.


to throw another on the list, this is where I've purchased my acoustic materials in the past. great folks to deal with, in my experience.

Acoustic Panels by ATS Acoustics


----------



## claydo

OK, I'd give the average Guy a year......you, I'm gonna say, 6months. That's time to get your room the way you want it.........about the time you get used to doing critical listening in there, BOOM! I think the old car thread will light up, with a vengeance. I know the cycle myself.....,


----------



## 2010hummerguy

SI subs would be awesome. I love the AE subs too, I have six OB15's in my listening room and it sounds incredible. What is your reasoning against the IB15's?


----------



## claydo

Oh,and as the resident raw driver tester......are ya gonna try your hand at the DIY route, not like now, I know you want the kef's, but down the road? Truly high-end speakers can be built for a fraction of purchase cost. I know you were toying with the idea of passives in the car. I think building a set of towers would be a good way to experiment!


----------



## TrickyRicky

Found a picture of my work  As you can see (well you wont see the sound panels as they are above attached to a sheet rock suspended ceiling) we used fabric and stretched it between each furr-down and covered the ceiling above. Also notice the diffusers used on the walls.









Sorry for showing off in your thread, just wanted to give you an idea


----------



## spyders03

Glad to see it coming together! Although it is a loss in the community the more you get out of car audio. I for one have benefited so much from your experience and willingness to share the knowledge. I know you aren't leaving, but I just wanted to say thank you for everything you have taught me. As I have said before, I would not be where I am today if it weren't for you.

Add far as the HT goes, it looks like it is really coming along. I'm glad you are able to do what you want, and having the wife on board really helps! Have you done any sketch ups on speaker placement yet, or are you waiting to see how everything reacts together? 

Swyped while swerving


----------



## SQ Audi

TrickyRicky said:


> Sound panels can be installed (but not sure if their cheap, at least not the commercial grade). I installed a few sound panels for a church (in Turner Falls, OK), Warren Theater (Moore, OK), Gaylord College (Norman, OK) and a few others I can't remember.
> 
> Here's a link. We used Armstrong.
> 
> 
> Here's a PDF/data page for wall sound diffusers.


I must say, Ricky, that the Warren sounds amazing! Every theater I have been in sounded great! Awesome to hear you had something to do with that. 

--Joe

sorry for the thread hi-jack...back to your regularly scheduled viewing.


----------



## TrickyRicky

SQ Audi said:


> I must say, Ricky, that the Warren sounds amazing! Every theater I have been in sounded great! Awesome to hear you had something to do with that.
> 
> --Joe
> 
> sorry for the thread hi-jack...back to your regularly scheduled viewing.


They used 18" drivers from jbl i believe 8 in each of the balcony rooms. Funny thing was that as soon as they brought then in that same day a few drivers in their enclosures where stollen. Not to mention ia hate crime that occur while it was been built.


----------



## ErinH

a few minor things.

*First*, I finally ordered my HT receiver. I have been wavering a few weeks/months about which one to get. I finally made my decision last week for sure to go with the Denon AVR-2313CI and decided to wait out a good price. I could get refurb for about $500 shipped but I would only get a 1 year warranty as opposed to 3 year if new. 

I checked Crutchfield Outlet the other night (as I had been regularly) and they had it open box for $509. Their open box deals still have the original mfg warranty apply from date of sale which means I get the 3yr warranty to boot. I wound up using some points and got it for $502 shipped. Yay!

I've also decided that once I go with dual subs (see below) I'll be ordering the miniDSP for subwoofer processing.


*Second*: I'm still trying to decide if I want to go IB or not. I know everyone says it's awesome but there are two issues for me, personally:

Cutting hole(s) in the wall. My wife said it's OK. But then when I explained it to her, she started to have that look ...
I'll admit: I'm a wuss. It's a brand new house... if it were older then it wouldn't be such a personal hurdle/concern. I'm just not sure I want to cut a hole in the walls. I have plenty of attic space and ceiling space but I'm just not sure this is a route I really want to get in to. 
Not sure I completely need it. I've modeled different designs. The IB method, at least with the AE's is a LFE beast. Even compared to the SI HT18's. BUT, I don't have a lot of free time and I personally hate cutting wood. I can buy a flat pack 4 cube enclosure and the HT18 for about $320 shipped. Not a bad deal at all, really. Though, compared to the AE IB15HT the LFE is a solid 8dB lower at 20hz. I've got the (clean) power and could possibly throw a parametric/LT on it as it has plenty of excursion. I may start with one of these and build out from there. Not sure I'll really need (2) right away. Though, having multiples is much more about mechanical FR smoothing than LFE. In that case, there's also the more logical method of using a staggered 12" sub somewhere in the room for this purpose. All of ^ that said, I'm just talking out loud... I'll figure out what to do and just go. But I'm doing a brain dump for now.


----------



## claydo

Good choice on the denon reciever.......... I've had an avr 3802 ( I think that's right) for years without issues........denon's direct mode ( if they still use it) is awesome for music too, on mine it deactivates all digital circuitry and tone controls, and sounds sweeter than any mid level reciever has a right to....


----------



## Victor_inox

claydo said:


> Good choice on the denon reciever.......... I've had an avr 3802 ( I think that's right) for years without issues........denon's direct mode ( if they still use it) is awesome for music too, on mine it deactivates all digital circuitry and tone controls, and sounds sweeter than any mid level reciever has a right to....


THey do still have it, direct mode is awesome.


----------



## rich20730

I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out. FWIW, going the IB route may seem like a daunting task, but it's really not that bad. The biggest pain when I did mine was having to maneuver the ~ 80lb manifold through a maze of obstacles in my attic without adequate room to stand up or move around. If you've got a decent amount of space to work with up there it should be fairly easy.

Whether you decide to go IB or not, I'd be happy to assist with any questions or issues you encounter along the way, as it looks like your equipment list is very similar to what I used for my build.


----------



## iScream

I did a DIY home theater in a spare bedroom when I lived in Texas. If I were building another, in your space, I would already have a hole cut in the ceiling between two joists and a five sided baffle made to mount at least 4 15" subs in the attic, infinite baffle. When we sold the house to move to Tennessee, fixing the hole in the ceiling was pretty easy. 

My room was smaller than yours but four Adire Audio Tempest subs, driven by a Behringer 1500, and tuned with a Feedback Destroyer, was incredible. That sub setup was my favorite part of the whole theater, including the 8' X 4' screen.

I went through a progression of one Adire Shiva 12 sealed, to two of them, to a store bought powered 15, then to the IB. When people tried out my theater room for the first time, I always put in Jurasic Park where the T-Rex is up close breathing and the reactions were always amazement.

Personally, I would paint that ceiling flat black.


----------



## ErinH

Yea, I'm going to go IB. I just have to find the dang time to do it. Too much other stuff on my plate (meets, competitions, birthdays, vacation, and work).


----------



## copperears

Everything looks good so far, it should sound nice with the speakers you have. In the past I had mode issues in a long skinny room such as yours. After everything is up and running and you can measure, do consider some Helmholtz panels. Tricky to tune just right, but with 3" + of rockwool behind it, they will be effective about a half octave either side of tuning. Covered with grill cloth they don't look that bad either. I prefer these over plain insulation or foam, as they don't kill all the HF content.

I would love to have a dedicated HT room, not enough room where we are. I would also like to thank you for the things I have learned from your posts here on DIYMA, epsecially about using AP for my midbass. The single best improvement to my system.


----------



## n_olympios

I'd very much like to put IB subs in the room, but the walls are 40cm thick armoured concrete so it's a no-go. Unless I lose a window, hmmm now there's a thought...


----------



## its_bacon12

claydo said:


> ........but as you are probably aware of......... because of the ease of miraculous sound in a dedicated listening room, its just gonna intensify your quest for sq in your car. Of course we all know how frustrating that is!


Or you just give up entirely on the car because it's an environment that is so absolutely ****ed for good sound, you come to the conclusion that it's a complete and utter waste of time and money to do anything above the highly adequate stock sound systems that come in cars ~7-8 years old and newer.


----------



## claydo

Wow, ya haven't heard a good car in a while, huh, I'm sorry........


Surely I'm just missing your sarcasm though, right?


----------



## BuickGN

On the bright side it looks like this is a house you will be in for a long time so while cutting on a new house would still be stressful I'm sure it's worth it in the long run. I for one am really looking forward to seeing this project progress. I have a dead space in the wall, a recess above and behind the TV that has nothing but attic behind it (vaulted ceiling). I can fit 4 15" subs in that space. 

How many square feet is your theatre room? Just trying to get an idea if 4 of them would be adequate for a medium sized room.


----------



## its_bacon12

claydo said:


> Wow, ya haven't heard a good car in a while, huh, I'm sorry........
> 
> 
> Surely I'm just missing your sarcasm though, right?


You've caught the little in it that was meant to be portrayed. I gave up car audio in lieu of home audio and building a really nice computer with nice headphones. I work in NYC, commute from CT though so I rarely use my car.

Very occasionally I wish I had a nice audio system in my car, during the summer, windows down, nice night, great song.. but other than that, the stock system in my car is perfectly fine for 95% of my usage.


----------



## claydo

Oh, I got ya......I've got a 52 minute commute, one way, so my priorities are different.


----------



## miniSQ

I also have a 52 minute commute each way...so having a nice system is very important to me. I also live in my house 7 days a week, so its important to have decent HT experience. I think its possible to enjoy both


----------



## claydo

Word......


----------



## BuickGN

I bought my equipment back when I was commuting 45 minutes each way and doing the 4hr Vegas drive or 2hr beach drive or 2hr Hollywood drive on the weekends. Now my commute is 1.5 miles each way and I will be lucky to leave town more than twice a year. Home audio is becoming much more appealing. I've considered building some cabinets and using my current front stage in them and returning the system to stock so I can take the car to the movies or go to dinner without wondering if the system is going to be there when I get out. 

Sorry for contributing to the thread derail, looking forward to the HT updates more than ever.


----------



## claydo

Yup, back on topic here......Erin, ill ask again, have ya ever had the craving to build your own tower? With your extensive experience in driver testing, I'd love to see what you would put together. Some of the DIY home speaker build logs are fun to watch. One day I'd love to try this myself, and although I'd probably go the easier route of active processing, I'll admit to a fascination with the challenges of building passive crossover networks, and a " complete " self contained speaker. The " stacked " routed wood designs blow me away, with the contoured cabinets, and sleek appearances. To have built and successfully implemented an attractive finish on a full 5 channel ( or seven) set, with matching sexy curved cabinets, would definately elicit some pride. If I could pull of an exotic finish, I also believe they could resemble speakers waay out of my financial reach, but alas, with my limited woodworking skills, this is probably a pipedream......


----------



## quickaudi07

Any updates ???


----------



## ousooner2

BuickGN said:


> I bought my equipment back when I was commuting 45 minutes each way and doing the 4hr Vegas drive or 2hr beach drive or 2hr Hollywood drive on the weekends. Now my commute is 1.5 miles each way and I will be lucky to leave town more than twice a year. Home audio is becoming much more appealing. I've considered building some cabinets and using my current front stage in them and returning the system to stock so I can take the car to the movies or go to dinner without wondering if the system is going to be there when I get out.
> 
> Sorry for contributing to the thread derail, looking forward to the HT updates more than ever.


I'm the same way. I loved my audio in the TL, but I just feel like it's always a battle with reflections, TA not being the best it can be, rattles, etc. PITA! Home audio is my priority now



claydo said:


> Yup, back on topic here......Erin, ill ask again, have ya ever had the craving to build your own tower? With your extensive experience in driver testing, I'd love to see what you would put together. Some of the DIY home speaker build logs are fun to watch. One day I'd love to try this myself, and although I'd probably go the easier route of active processing, I'll admit to a fascination with the challenges of building passive crossover networks, and a " complete " self contained speaker. The " stacked " routed wood designs blow me away, with the contoured cabinets, and sleek appearances. To have built and successfully implemented an attractive finish on a full 5 channel ( or seven) set, with matching sexy curved cabinets, would definately elicit some pride. If I could pull of an exotic finish, I also believe they could resemble speakers waay out of my financial reach, but alas, with my limited woodworking skills, this is probably a pipedream......


Check out diysoundgroup. There are flat packs for subs, speakers, etc. Some of the speakers are really great for the price from what I've seen on the forums. If you've got the finishing skills then it's a great way to go. 



quickaudi07 said:


> Any updates ???


This! Any chance to see some KEF R's is greatly appreciated


----------



## ErinH

Now that the car audio season has come to a close and I'm done messing with that, I'm ratcheting back up for HT. Money kept me from completing anything but I've been working a lot of OT to build up some funds. There hasn't been any real progress as of late. I had actually almost punted and sold everything in lieu of something completely different: a baffle wall build. 

But, I decided to stick with the plan. If this ht turns out to be something that's used a lot then I'll revisit. I just don't want to put a lot of time and more money in to it right now. And since I mentioned saving time, I decided to go against the IB culture and go with a traditional setup. But I still wanted some low end. Therefore, I ordered (2) of these earlier today:
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-15-ultimax-subwoofer-and-cabinet-package--300-7097



Once I get those in and assembled, I'll start arranging all the speakers and doing measurements to determine the best subwoofer placement. Then use some EQ to help tame modal peaks. 

DIY screen is next. Ordering the material tomorrow. For $100, it's worth a shot. I hope to have my PJ by Christmas so I can show it off to family. But I may not be able to purchase that until January. 

I'll be sure to post up some response measurements of the subs before and after EQ. I'm pretty sure the whole setup is going to sound pretty dang legit. Definitely looking forward to getting to the final stages if room treatment and EQ work. Tuning is kinda fun.


----------



## spyders03

Very nice man, can't wait to see some testing results

Swyped while swerving


----------



## ErinH

This is somewhere in the ballpark of where
I'll be regarding screen size and location.


----------



## BuickGN

Are those Daytons going to be ported?


----------



## ErinH

Nope. The link I posted shows the enclosures they come with. 

The ultimax line was built with sealed enclosures in mind. They'll need some EQ at the bottom to help with very low frequency extension due to the box. But that's why I bought two of them. One would have sufficed but the pair is to let me EQ the low end as needed and give more headroom. I'd rather have two operating at 50% than one operating at 100%.


----------



## ErinH

Hey, guys.

I put together an excel spreadsheet for myself to determine frame and materials dimensions needed for a very simple DIY screen. It does the math for me, so when I'm going back and forth between screen sizes, I can keep up with how large the frame is going to need to be.

I built the sheet based on my design: a simple wooden frame with a center beam for support. The 'wood' here is plain jane strips of wood. No fancy edge designs. If your screen will have an edge design (like moulding), just keep that in mind. 

The general idea is I know my desired screen size and any trim I want to use, such as black felt. Punch it all in, get the frame size, screen material size, and also the size of the wood pieces I need. 

Here's how to use it:

Enter all your variables in the green areas: Wall dimensions, screen dimensions, black felt strip width, etc. I put notes for explanation if needed.
All yellow areas are calculated. The bottom yellow portion of the sheet will provide you with the dimensions you need for screen material and wood.
Note: All dimensions are in (inches).

Once you go through the process and get your material sizes, look at the other page (tab at the bottom called "Frame + Screen Overlay". This will give you a visual layout, and lay the screen's dimensions over the frame just as a quick sanity check. 

It's possible I made a goof somewhere as I was doing this while my daughter was running around the house chasing the dogs and I didn't initially intend to post it up. But, hopefully it helps save you guys a bit of trouble.


*Here's the link to download it:*
http://bit.ly/IkKOs9



Here's a couple screenshots:









LMK if you have any issues or questions.

- Erin


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Erin 110" at 14' is really huge - 96" at that distance IMHO is more suitable. 

We did 110" since the screen at 15'(front row) and 19'(back row) - The view from the back row was easier on the eyes - especially on 16:9 movies. 

I always felt the front row wasn't the best seats in the house - a few of our guest all said 'it was like being two rows, too close"

if you want to chat offline - just use your bat phone.


----------



## ErinH

Thanks for the input. 

I used an excel file that calculates distance thresholds for THX, & SMPTE. I based the inputs off a 110" diagonal. Got the values I needed and went upstairs. 

I taped off 110" diagonal earlier, pictures below. This is the approximate screen size and placement I'd be using for 110". (It'll need to come down about 4" or so, but I'm making the viewing angle tradeoff for having the center channel more in line with the sides.) 

I actually felt like the space wasn't large enough even at 14', which is where he picture below was taken from. I started thinking it actually needed to go larger or I need to move closer, but I don't have much more space to do that with (after a border is factored in). But what you said is making me second guess that.


----------



## ErinH

Called a painter and got a quote today that was reasonable. So, I'm picking up the paint today and they'll get it painted sometime soon. Maybe Friday.


----------



## Lorin

is your screen going to cover the window? Or is that the opposite end of the HT room?


----------



## ErinH

I'll blackout the window. We never use it since we never go to that room other than to listen to music or soon watch the HT. 

Though, I won't fix the screen to the wall permanently so I'll be able to take it down as needed.


----------



## ErinH

To quote Def Leppard...

Do ya wanna get rocked?...


----------



## WestCo

In for videos!
Looks great


----------



## AVIDEDTR

BIG MOFO WOOFERS!!!!!!


----------



## cajunner

looks very large as a screen, imho.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Those look great! Are those Diysoundgroup flat pack enclosures? I am thinking of getting a couple when the 35mm xmax SI subs are released. Those Ultimax subs look fun though, especially the new 18's.


----------



## ErinH

Painters finished up a couple hours ago. My wife sent me the pictures below via text to give me an idea of how it looks 

I'm very happy with it. My wife said it looks very dark but goes well with the side walls. I'm looking forward to getting home and seeing it in person. I'll take a higher red photo of the room with the DSLR and post it up later. 

I'll take down some of the wall plates and AC vents and paint them brown or black to go with the dark theme as well. 

Picture looking toward the back of the room:





And a comparison of the light brown side wall vs the freshly painted brown slant wall/ceiling:



Edit: FWIW, the paint job for the ceiling and slant walls ran me $180 including materials. Which, IMO, was a steal. The first quote was about $240.


----------



## ErinH

I didn't have time to break out the DSLR last night but I did snap a picture with my phone. I think it turned out great. And the whole room has that theater 'feel' to it that it didn't have before. 

Now I just have to start moving forward with the screen build. 


Here's the before:



Here's the after:


----------



## spyders03

Looking very nice Sir! Can't wait to watch Jarassic Park or Saving Private Ryan or something. 

I had never purchased a Blu-ray before (disk or player, but got a PS4 on launch day, woot!), but on black Friday Walmart had a bunch for $3/ea, so I now have a stack, haha. Got my surround sound hooked up and love it, gaming has never been so epic, can't imagine it in a room like that! 

Swyped while swerving


----------



## turbo5upra

Subscribing'.


----------



## decibelle

What a tease. On with the screen build already, man!

I am sensing a north AL spring meet with a movie marathon in the near future


----------



## ErinH

I'm still trying to pick the material for the screen. Shouldn't be too hard. 

I was shooting for having this thing completed by Christmas but it may not happen just due to budget. 

I'm already building up an arsenal of amps for this room. . I bought a Crown XLS 1500 for the front mains. It puts out 300w per channel @ 8 ohm. Will probably pick up an XLS 1000 and bridge it for center and another one for the rear surrounds. I've got to work out the preamp concerns though so it'll be some time before I put any external amps to use other than the behringer ep2500 I'm using for subs. So, for now I'll power the 5 channels off the denon AVR and once I accrue the amps and preamp stage, I'll throw mad power at it all.


----------



## roduk

That looks superb! Personally i'd paint teh skirting boards the same colour as the walls to eliminate that distraction too… I recently heard a big M&K system at a place here here in the UK in a nearly pitch black room and OMG it was good… He used 8, yes 8 of the subs you are!!


----------



## ErinH

roduk said:


> That looks superb! Personally i'd paint teh skirting boards the same colour as the walls to eliminate that distraction too… I recently heard a big M&K system at a place here here in the UK in a nearly pitch black room and OMG it was good… He used 8, yes 8 of the subs you are!!


I thought the same thing, but the baseboards are a considerably less distraction than the ceiling and I didn't want to spend the money on that detail because there's no real payoff. Not saying it won't happen. I just don't foresee it. 

As for subs, I already know I'm going to need more. If my AEs don't sell for my current asking price then I'll likely keep them for this HT and move the Dayton's as "satellite subs".


----------



## n_olympios

roduk said:


> He used 8, yes 8 of the subs you are!!


You calling the man a sub, Rod?


----------



## roduk

n_olympios said:


> You calling the man a sub, Rod?


Where's DIYMAs 'Like' button!!!


----------



## raamaudio

KEF is one of the best sounding manfs, you will love them I am sure, perhaps later on you will do the DIY thing, highly recommended if you have the time to perfect them 

I was working on a DIY line array for our trailer system when PE showed the latest project, four 3" Celestons per side but the enclosure required was just to big. I came across a killer deal on KEF 6000 extruded aluminum line arrays for $300 shipped, retail is $1200! I could not match the sound/quality build, low weight and size for the anywhere near the price DIY and lots of time I can use for other things!

---------------
I did not notice a player listed but may of just missed it. 

I have an OPPO BD83SE I love but only use the stereo out as just run a 2.1 system. The newer units can do the 3D stuff, have a different output DAC for the stereo, same one used for the 7.1.....perhaps you are using the audio in the Receiver but if you get a chance check out the OPPO, amazing for the price. (you can find OPPO internals in some INSANELY marked up players in high end AV stores)

I found a used 83SE for around $500, the newest model is around $1100 but has better audio for surround. I have an old Marantz 5.1 receiver that sounds incredible and has low level inputs if I ever want to go surround I will use it, got a killer deal on it. 

I just reread your last post, a receiver with pre outs makes sense if you want to run external higher powered amps....I have an older Crown AB amp, forget the model right now, it was the world class amp of all the big gig setups and rugged as moved around the world to events, lots of them, I think it weighs around 80lbs and has quite some power. I bought it for PA use for the studio I was building in my basement, 20 cents on the dollar over new quality amps!

You might want to shop Craig's list, etc....I found almost my whole band setup including an incredible Yamaha Keyboard for killer deals on local listings in Utah. 

----------

I may need to look into the mini DSP for crossover/sub use in the trailer and later on the OPPO player when we live in a house again. For now I am using the Dayton SA1000 as the crossover/amp (class H) with variable phase, single band EQ really comes in handy, seems I am constantly tweaking it due to the huge disparity of recording engineers use of bass.....

-------------

I really want to do an IB or big horn sub, almost did in the house I am in but decided I would be moving out of it when the economy was a bit better so held off on it. 

4 ID 15's sealed with lots of power, stacked by the mains, does not take up any real space as not used for anything else anyway, works for now. (I only run two of them anyway, never bothered to wire up all 4)

----------------

Very smart on the projector and DIY screen, I have never had the space to do it but sure plan to eventually!

----------------

Ducting, if nothing done you might want to do some work on them, more for critial music listening that pounding out a movie but it helps there as well. I have shipped BXT and Ensolite out for that purpose, I like to line the inside of ducts as far as I can reach with Ensolite, outsides I use the BXT, or inside if have to as well in tight areas where I cannot do the outside. I also do the ducting in my vehicles, I can barely hear the system in my dually unless cranked up and parked but hardly ever crank it up as the whole truck is so well thermally treated due to the deadening I have done

Rick


----------



## ErinH

Rick, I'm not sure where to start... lol.

First off, the IB thing... I have a few reasons why I'm not going that route. Or haven't gone that route yet. I think I've discussed it here, but maybe not. Long story short, it's just not what I'm doing at this moment. That may change in a month or two. The knock down boxes allow me the flexibility to move things around as I see fit and will easily integrate in to the system as rear subs should I go IB down the line. 

DIY vs Kef. Kef wins. I don't have time for DIY. And if I did, I'm not sure I can do what Kef has done without the time+cost approaching a level I'm not ready to commit ATM. I've been going back and forth between a full up baffle wall, THX style, with radius'ed side walls and IB manifolds built in to the front. I had priced out doing an all active setup with offerings from diysoundgroup as well. Ultimately, though, that's just too far in to the rabbit hole for something that is supposed to be more for a in-the-park homerun as opposed to a grand slam walk-off. 

I'm currently at the point of shopping pre/pro's and going with external amplification. I've got a Crown XLS1500 on the way. Also have QSC PLX1202 I use for Klippel testing. My current mindset has me ordering Crowns XLS Drive Core's for all power. The XLS1500 on the front mains, an XLS1000 for center bridged and another XLS1000 for rear surrounds. The XLS1000 has a noise floor issue according to a couple reviews but in HT mode, it's not of serious concern and the XLS1500 would be the only thing on during music. Then I need a good pre/pro (there are tons of options and I've yet to decide on anything yet). I already have the Denon 2313ci but have it for sale here for $500 (if anyone is interested... ahem!). I need a receiver with pre-outs such as the 3313ci or step up to Emo (don't much care for the UMC-200 though the cost is hard to deny), Sherbourne (7303, IIRC, is sweet), Integra, etc, etc. Heck, I'm even considering getting a Rane RPM88 or other good DSP with at least 6 channel input, going in to that via speaker level in with the 2313ci and doing my own processing. Might be easier and it certainly would have everything I already want (airplay, iphone/ipad app, 2nd powered zone).

The options I have are overwhelming at times. Then mix in the lighting factor, screen options (diy options and OEM'd), etc, etc, etc... as well as the acoustic treatments I'll be doing.... it's a hairy process. 

Suffice it to say, I'm not done yet. And I probably won't be anytime soon, even though I was pushing hard for a Christmas completion... my change to external amplification extended that. I'm having fun with this. Just not having fun with the hours I'm having to work over time to fund this room. When it's done, it's gonna be pretty dang awesome, because I won't settle for anything less. Even if awesome is a simple setup; it's gonna be awesomely simple.


----------



## raamaudio

I edited my post a great deal to focus more on your topic and not mine.....sorry buddy, I was in an odd mood when I posted it.

Some ideas now there you may want to consider, used higher end PA amps, etc......I found amazing gear for amazing deals. 

Sincerely
Rick


----------



## ErinH

Some news...

I sold the Denon 2313ci. I went back and forth on a replacement; AVR with preouts or preamp. Lots of options. But not so little cost for the preamp. I waited out an Integra 80.2 preamp on ebay but I couldn't swing the money it ultimately went for. I wound up picking up an Onkyo TX-NR818 from Crutchfield. With all it's features and the sale price, it didn't take me too much convincing. It has Audyssey XT32 (no subEQ but not needed, and you'll see why in a sec ). The pre-outs put out some serious juice, but it has to be going to full tilt. I measured 3.5vRMS on each pre-out. No clipping. For amplifier power, I could use the Onkyo internal amp but nahhhhhh.... I ordered up a set of Crown XLS1500 amps which should be here tomorrow.  They will power the front mains and I'll use one channel for the center. I plan to order a third for the rear surrounds. 


While waiting on the Integra 80.2 to go beyond my budget, I spotted a Rane RPM88 put up on eBay at the same time for a really, really good price. Though, I didn't necessarily plan on using it, I didn't hesitate. It was marked as "as-is condition" but I was hopeful it would work. I took a leap of faith. 

I got the rane in and the condition is what I expected. The fan _may _need to be replaced because it has a tendency to bog down every 10 minutes or so. Upon startup, it also makes the bad bearings sound I used to hate when I worked at the bike shop (seriously, opening up hubs and reassembling caged bearings was such a pain). 

I had a bit of trouble getting it set up and a friend guided me a bit through it. Ultimately, I found that windows 7 has a bit of a trick to it that was covered in an FAQ on the Rane site. Basically, don't set the IP address via TCIP; just go with automatic. Also, I had to disable any other network adapter (my VNC and wireless networks). once I did this, I was in. Loaded the software up, prompted for a FW update, did that, and I'm rockin'. 

I don't expect I'll have a whole lot of need for DSP with Audyssey XT32, especially higher in frequency as I move beyond the Schroeder frequency. But it'll be my final DSP stop before the amps; allowing me all the control I need globally but especially low frequency response such as modes and any needed level & time delay matching for multiple subs. It will also act as a pretty serious unbalanced-to-balanced converter between the Onkyo and the Crown amps.  It's specs are higher than any of the other components in the chain, so I have no worries about it degrading the signal coming out of the Onkyo (or any other piece I feed in to it). The cool thing I forgot about is that I can also access it wirelessly when it's connected to my bridge. Which means I can tune from any seat in the house (literally) without having to be wired to it.


----------



## BigRed

bikinpunk said:


> I'm still trying to pick the material for the screen. Shouldn't be too hard.
> 
> I was shooting for having this thing completed by Christmas but it may not happen just due to budget.
> 
> I'm already building up an arsenal of amps for this room. . I bought a Crown XLS 1500 for the front mains. It puts out 300w per channel @ 8 ohm. Will probably pick up an XLS 1000 and bridge it for center and another one for the rear surrounds. I've got to work out the preamp concerns though so it'll be some time before I put any external amps to use other than the behringer ep2500 I'm using for subs. So, for now I'll power the 5 channels off the denon AVR and once I accrue the amps and preamp stage, I'll throw mad power at it all.


I've had the most expensive screens, and DIY. At the end, there is a point of diminishing returns. Lumens comes into play. This is what I purchased online for $250. Velvet border with a 120" screen 1.1 rate. HD projector

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c...8047E9C-3403-000003BE4690DF42_zpsb1b6c8fe.jpg


----------



## quietfly

Wow, i can't wait to see what this ends up turning into.


----------



## t3sn4f2

bikinpunk said:


> Some news...
> 
> I sold the Denon 2313ci. I went back and forth on a replacement; AVR with preouts or preamp. Lots of options. But not so little cost for the preamp. I waited out an Integra 80.2 preamp on ebay but I couldn't swing the money it ultimately went for. I wound up picking up an Onkyo TX-NR818 from Crutchfield. With all it's features and the sale price, it didn't take me too much convincing. It has Audyssey XT32 (no subEQ but not needed, and you'll see why in a sec ). The pre-outs put out some serious juice, but it has to be going to full tilt. I measured 3.5vRMS on each pre-out. No clipping. For amplifier power, I could use the Onkyo internal amp but nahhhhhh.... I ordered up a set of Crown XLS1500 amps which should be here tomorrow.  They will power the front mains and I'll use one channel for the center. I plan to order a third for the rear surrounds.
> 
> While waiting on the Integra 80.2 to go beyond my budget, I spotted a Rane RPM88 put up on eBay at the same time for a really, really good price. Though, I didn't necessarily plan on using it, I didn't hesitate. It was marked as "as-is condition" but I was hopeful it would work. I took a leap of faith.
> 
> I got the rane in and the condition is what I expected. The fan _may _need to be replaced because it has a tendency to bog down every 10 minutes or so. Upon startup, it also makes the bad bearings sound I used to hate when I worked at the bike shop (seriously, opening up hubs and reassembling caged bearings was such a pain).
> 
> I had a bit of trouble getting it set up and a friend guided me a bit through it. Ultimately, I found that windows 7 has a bit of a trick to it that was covered in an FAQ on the Rane site. Basically, don't set the IP address via TCIP; just go with automatic. Also, I had to disable any other network adapter (my VNC and wireless networks). once I did this, I was in. Loaded the software up, prompted for a FW update, did that, and I'm rockin'.
> 
> I don't expect I'll have a whole lot of need for DSP with Audyssey XT32, especially higher in frequency as I move beyond the Schroeder frequency. But it'll be my final DSP stop before the amps; allowing me all the control I need globally but especially low frequency response such as modes and any needed level & time delay matching for multiple subs. It will also act as a pretty serious unbalanced-to-balanced converter between the Onkyo and the Crown amps.  It's specs are higher than any of the other components in the chain, so I have no worries about it degrading the signal coming out of the Onkyo (or any other piece I feed in to it). The cool thing I forgot about is that I can also access it wirelessly when it's connected to my bridge. Which means I can tune from any seat in the house (literally) without having to be wired to it.


Nice piece. Do you think there might be any video/audio in sync issues due to the added processing time from the Rane?


----------



## ErinH

I don't really know, TBH. I don't expect it to be an issue, but I'll just have to see.


----------



## ErinH

DIY A/V rack is done. Grand total was about $60, compared to about $400+. Materials used was some angled, perforated 14gauge steel, 4 casters (so I can roll it away from the wall for gear swaps) and some nails/bolts. The 2x4's all came from a dumpster when they were building a house down the street. Some were much worse than others, but luckily I had enough good ones that I could have a "good side". 

some photos...





top added.





spray painted... and it looked horrible. 2 cans in I punted and went to pick up some legitimate paint.







painted


----------



## Kevin K

Way to make something out of nothing. Now just a few soft blue led's, some wiring and it's ready to produce what it was made for.


----------



## ErinH

Kevin K said:


> Way to make something out of nothing. Now just a few soft blue led's, some wiring and it's ready to produce what it was made for.



I've seriously considered doing some LED strips. But then I talk myself out of it because this thing will be in a closet. Truth be told, the paint was just because I didn't like the raw wood. No one will ever really see it from the room.


----------



## quietfly

bikinpunk said:


> DIY A/V rack is done. Grand total was about $60, compared to about $400+. Materials used was some angled, perforated 14gauge steel, 4 casters (so I can roll it away from the wall for gear swaps) and some nails/bolts. The 2x4's all came from a dumpster when they were building a house down the street. Some were much worse than others, but luckily I had enough good ones that I could have a "good side".
> 
> some photos...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> top added.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spray painted... and it looked horrible. 2 cans in I punted and went to pick up some legitimate paint.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> painted




looks good!!! 
i second LED's!!!


----------



## BigRed

Looks great man!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

Test run on the amp/receiver connection. So far, so good. Third XLS1500 will be here tomorrow I've got a line on an XLS2500 to pull sub duty in place of the Behringer EP2500 (to have all matching amps). 




BTW, if any of you guys have an Onkyo or integra piece, check in to the oRemote app. It's a couple bucks in the App Store but it's worth it.


----------



## ashman5

If I didn't know better, I'd think I was looking at the action room at the local Carmike!

Must have a tour when you complete this.


----------



## ErinH

ashman5 said:


> If I didn't know better, I'd think I was looking at the action room at the local Carmike!
> 
> Must have a tour when you complete this.


Dude, that place is SICK! Room stocked full of QSC amps. No telling what kind of power is in that building...

As it stands, I'll have 3 Crown XLS1500's to drive the left, center, right, and sides. That's 300w @ 8ohm, 525w @ 4ohm.  The R500's dip down to a minimum load of about 3.2 ohm. 
I have a Behringer EP2500 for subs already but I'm likely going to pick up an XLS2500 for subs just to have a matching set of amps. Weird like that. 

I have no idea when this will actually be *complete*, but I'm making progress... slowly but surely. Anytime you want a tour, come on by! Just bring your tools cause I'm gonna need some help. LOL.


----------



## quietfly

looks like it's going to be SICK!! won't this make you not like your car audio anymore after having audio nirvana in your HTR?


----------



## ErinH

At this point, I'm actually considering dumping the AVR and using the Oppo as the preamp in to the Rane.


----------



## Kevin K

What about the miniDSP you had talked about using?


----------



## THE VIKING

Great looking room you have put together there Erin but one thing I would do is paint the wall electrical plates the same colour as the walls. just so they dont stand out so much.



bikinpunk said:


> I didn't have time to break out the DSLR last night but I did snap a picture with my phone. I think it turned out great. And the whole room has that theater 'feel' to it that it didn't have before.
> 
> Now I just have to start moving forward with the screen build.
> 
> 
> Here's the before:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the after:


----------



## ErinH

THE VIKING said:


> Great looking room you have put together there Erin but one thing I would do is paint the wall electrical plates the same colour as the walls. just so they dont stand out so much.



I plan to. 

Kevin, I got the Rane at a price that was too good to pass up. So, I'm using it instead of the miniDSP.


----------



## Blazemore

Erin - What are you using or how do you have it wired to turn the crowns on / off from the closet? Also is there much fan noise from the amps? I'm thinking about switching over to the crowns but my rack would be in the same room.


----------



## ErinH

The crowns are dead silent. I use one downstairs for Klippel purposes right now and the fan hasn't kicked on under pretty serious load. I've read a few others' mention that when the fan does kick on, it's pretty silent still.

Currently I don't have them powered on via any other circuit. I just power them up myself. But, I'm also not to the point where I'm concerned about that. I don't have a PJ yet.  I've read about some methods, but haven't really dug in to it. I do plan to look in to my options when I get to the point of needing it. But right now, it's not on my radar.


----------



## rich20730

Blazemore said:


> Erin - What are you using or how do you have it wired to turn the crowns on / off from the closet?


For mine, I just use an energy-saving surge-protector like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-Conserve-Socket-Energy-Saving/dp/B003P2UMQ2/ref=pd_sim_hi_5

Plug your receiver/TV into the master socket and your amp(s) etc. will power on and off accordingly.


----------



## ErinH

^ I've got 3 XLS1500's and will have an XLS2500. I worry about using a single 15a multiplug for all my amps. I have (2) 20 amp receptacles in my A/V closet, which I plan to emply the use of. So, that said, I'm going to have to explore some different options.


----------



## Blazemore

rich20730 said:


> For mine, I just use an energy-saving surge-protector like this:
> Amazon.com: Belkin Conserve Socket with Energy Saving Outlet: Electronics
> 
> Plug your receiver/TV into the master socket and your amp(s) etc. will power on and off accordingly.


I'm using a Parasound Scamp now but if i go the Crown route I too worried about only 15amp strip.

I looked last night for options or ideas from other installs but came up with nothing so far.


----------



## ErinH

I've come across a few options via others' build threads or discussions. Unfortunately, I don't really remember any of them.


----------



## rich20730

bikinpunk said:


> ^ I've got 3 XLS1500's and will have an XLS2500. I worry about using a single 15a multiplug for all my amps. I have (2) 20 amp receptacles in my A/V closet, which I plan to emply the use of. So, that said, I'm going to have to explore some different options.



You could use a couple of these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00086IDDC?ie=UTF8&force-full-site=1&ref_=aw_bottom_links

Or you could do 4 of the single outlet model if you're really worried about it:
http://www.amazon.com/XANTECH-AC1-Controlled-AC-Outlet/dp/B000NU0T62/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_1

For what it's worth, I've had my Behringer EP4000 (running at 2ohms), along with my receiver, tv, blu-ray and several other items, hooked up to the same generic strip for about year and have never tripped a breaker or had any problems.

I think you'd be fine doing more than one amp per outlet, especially if it's just powering mains/surrounds.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Erin Look at Anthem MRX300. I now use it for all my audio 5.1 & 2.1needs.


----------



## PteDefcon

/drool.


----------



## ErinH

After talking with some friends this weekend at the MECA show and being asked about the progress on the HT, I realized that I hadn't updated this thread in a quite a while and there have been some pretty serious changes. So, here's the rundown....





I sold my Kef R500 speakers. I am using that money to fund a set of 3-way active DIY speakers which will use the same Kef R-series concentrics and a single Scanspeak 26W/8867T 10" revelator per tower.



The processing will be done via a Rane RPM26Z. This is very similar to the RPM88 I already own, except it is 2-channel in, 6-channel out. Perfect for stereo 3-way active.

The amplification will be as follows:

Kef Concentric Tweeters - Crown XLS1500. 

Kef Concentric Mids - Crown XLS1500.

Scan 10" Revelator - Crown XLS2000.



The source will be an Oppo BDP-103 which will also have my appleTV connected to it. I can control everything through an app. The Oppo's front left/right channels will run in to the RPM26Z. The remaining Oppo outputs such as the center, surround and subs will run in to the RPM88. That way I will have full DSP control with TONS of voltage uptick heading out to the Crown amps.





I've spent the better part of a month testing configurations for my build by simulating response in LEAP and also going through the trouble to actually *build a test enclosure* just to test the real world results of some ideas. The below is a picture of the test setup using some different 8" woofers in various height configurations along with some LEAP models. I used the Rane RPM88 to play around with crossover points and the Crown XLS1500 was to power them. This all was done just to test ideas. This isn't even the real build yet.  

You'll also notice I was using the Kef LS50 driver in this test setup, but I've since decided to use the R-series due to the better HF blending with the mid thanks to the smaller surround. This isn't by any means all I've done. I don't want to flood this thread with all of that. 
















If you want to view all the various test and sim results here's the link to my photobucket page:

http://s18.photobucket.com/user/bikinpunk/library/Kef DIY Build







Ultimately, however, I decided a 10" woofer better serves my needs. There's less concern regarding vertical polars and, simply, it has more output on the low end. I want this thing to have a lot of dynamic headroom so my crossovers will be similar to how I set up my car: higher than normal. The Scans will play in the neighborhood of 60hz-500hz and the Kef will takeover from there. This puts the woofer/mid crossover point in a prime position as it mitigates floor bounce from both drivers, and splits the difference in baffle step loss at the width of about 12" along with keeping the vertical and horizontal polars well behaved. 







I'll post up a few pictures as I go. I'm shooting to have this whole HT done by the end of March now. But that really depends on taxes.


----------



## Viggen

Have you ever compared the crown amps to other home audio amps? I see a lot of people using them in ht for sub duties..... As well as the plate amps. I have been a adcom fan since they entered the car audio world and was quite shocked by how much better parasound amps sound. Wonder how the crown,behringer etc amps compare?


----------



## ErinH

I've already used them. And there's others using them for mains as well. The engineering is amazing. Tons of power. High efficiency. Great reviews even from the crazy audiophiles.


----------



## subwoofery

bikinpunk said:


> Ultimately, however, I decided a 10" woofer better serves my needs. There's less concern regarding vertical polars and, simply, it has more output on the low end. I want this thing to have a lot of dynamic headroom so my crossovers will be similar to how I set up my car: higher than normal. The Scans will play in the neighborhood of 60hz-500hz and the Kef will takeover from there. This puts the woofer/mid crossover point in a prime position as it mitigates floor bounce from both drivers, and splits the difference in baffle step loss at the width of about 12" along with keeping the vertical and horizontal polars well behaved.


Could you please explain that part please? I'm a bit slow  

Thanks, 
Kelvin


----------



## ErinH

for me to explain that here in a single post wouldn't begin to cover the true implications. for that, I'd suggest grabbing some coffee and start reading about loudspeaker design. for floor bounce, read on the Allison Effect.


----------



## subwoofery

bikinpunk said:


> for me to explain that here in a single post wouldn't begin to cover the true implications. for that, I'd suggest grabbing some coffee and start reading about loudspeaker design. for floor bounce, read on the Allison Effect.


Guess I need to put my glasses on and start reading  

Kelvin


----------



## n_olympios

Erin, what's the price of the R-series raw drivers? I know that they're not available unless you provide Kef a correct s/n for the R100's (same for the Q-series as well).


----------



## ErinH

$800/each.










Just kidding. About $200/each. But you have to spend over a grand just to get the little bookshelves with these in them.


----------



## n_olympios

What? 

How can that be, the pair is $1200 and it comes with a cabin and crossovers and such. 

Do you perhaps mean the Reference Series drivers?

Edit: damn man, you nearly gave me a heart attack! I never saw that other line you wrote until after I posted!


----------



## ErinH

Sold the Ultimax 15's recently and went a different direction. A set of JL Audio e112 subwoofers should be arriving by the end of the week.


----------



## HiloDB1

Interesting looking driver. Never paid much attention to the HT stuff, unless it was available in raw driver form. What was the attraction to this particular powered sub driver?


----------



## ErinH

F3 of 21hz in a very small enclosure. Built in amp and variable phase control. The reviews (the few there are) that I've seen for this series sub have all been really good as well.


----------



## cajunner

aren't you getting tired of looking at those tan horizontal bars in your projection screen yet?

with all that effort you'd think you would have fixed that by now...


----------



## t3sn4f2

bikinpunk said:


> Sold the Ultimax 15's recently and went a different direction. A set of JL Audio e112 subwoofers should be arriving by the end of the week.


Nice!!


----------



## ErinH

t3sn4f2 said:


> Nice!!


I'm stoked! Looking forward to them coming in. Sucks I won't be able to do anything with them until I free up the funds for the Oppo.


----------



## Blazemore

bikinpunk said:


> Sold the Ultimax 15's recently and went a different direction. A set of JL Audio e112 subwoofers should be arriving by the end of the week.


That's a hell of a upgrade and expense.


----------



## knever3

Sweet can't wait to see how everything comes together.


----------



## cajunner

Klippel engineered product seems to flavor the buying decisions of late, in the bass...

was the Ultimax not testing as strong as JL's goodies?

was the Ultimax results so disappointing it made sense not to show them, since as a supplier to the DIY market, keeping support for Dayton makes more sense?


----------



## ErinH

I never tested the 15" ultimax. Didn't have the amp power needed until recently (as in a few days ago). Dayton's specs are obtained from Pat Turnmire, though, so their linear Xmax spec should be what they say it is.


----------



## cajunner

crayzee looking drivers in those boxes.

4K in sub bass, don't have to build anything, and a pair of these will energize the lowest ends with separate controls on the boxes, it's an easy button...

efficient with switching power supplies in the amps, long-term longevity, all the engineering already done.

you could do worse for the 50 hz on down.


----------



## ErinH

Those are all reasons I went with the JL subs. Excellent engineering, product support, good looks, pre-built and they plumb the depths in a very small enclosure. I didn't quite pay $4k, though. Found some used for a good price. I had only planned to get one but knew I'd regret not getting a pair so I spent my projector money on the second one. Looks like there'll be a delay in getting this movie room up and running but I'd rather have all the speakers up front rather than add them on later.

I'm hoping they arrive this weekend, but I'll have to see. Really looking forward to getting this stuff all set up. I plan on using these to cover from about 60hz and down and let my towers cover above that.


----------



## ErinH

As I mentioned previously, I've ditched the Kef R500 towers and am going DIY. I tried multiple configurations with multiple 8" drivers in a passive setup but that evolved as I kept modeling and building test setups. The short story is I have decided make this DIY build a fully active 3-way setup consisting of the following gear:

Kef R-Series concentric mid/tweeter 
Scanspeak 26w/8867T 10” woofer
Rane RPM26z for processing (crossover and EQ)
Crown DriveCore XLS1500 for tweeters (525w x2 @ 4ohm)
Crown XLS2000 for mids (650w x2 @ 4ohm)
Crown XLS2500 for woofers (775w x2 @ 4ohm)






Total power overkill, I know, but I had a couple already and I see no downside to using them. Talk about headroom… sheesh! 

Initially, I had planned to use dual woofers per tower. This was intended to keep the driver within beaming at the crossover but also allow me the abillity to smooth the LF response with the 2nd woofer. As the testing and simulations went on, I realized that using a single 10” would behoove me in regards to vertical polar and strike a nice balance for where I intended to cross thanks to the mid’s lower frequency limits and the woofer’s higher frequency limits, combined with baffle step. Ultimately, I plan to have the crossover between the woofer and concentric mid in the neighborhood of 400-500hz. I may still be lacking in regards to the LF smoothness, but it's a tradeoff I'm willing to take. 

I’m really not a fast worker when it comes to wood. I’m not a fan of building anything because I can’t achieve the ‘measure twice, cut once’ aspect. With that said, this build really will be simple at least with respect to the cabinet. I wanted to go with curved cabs but I was worried I’d spend more time and money buying materials than I have at my leisure, it’d make more sense to start with a very KISS method and possibly revisit a more complex, but aesthetically pleasing tower design this summer when I have time. 

Each cabinet is 12x13x48. This size was chosen in order to achieve a baffle step between the woofer and mid at about 500hz. Again, I’m just assuming that doing so allows for a more natural driver response without the need to put any correction in to the system. Of course, the 10” woofer size really drives the necessary baffle width… I suppose it all just sort of fell together in this regard. The woofer height will be placed about 23” from the floor. This height was chosen as it helps me stay within some reasonable range of lobing limits in conjunction with being at a good frequency with respect to floor bounce. The concentric will be placed roughly 41” from the floor. This height was chosen because that’s approximately where my head will be. There’s nothing I can’t stand more than looking down on a speaker at a normal seated height. It totally kills my psyche, man. 

I did a klippel test on each woofer to obtain large and small signal parameters. Small signal specs indicate a sealed enclosure size of 0.75ft^3 to hit a Qtc of 0.707, though my measurements showed different. Ultimately, based on my measurements, I arrived at a sealed volume of about 1.75ft^3. This puts the Qtc at about 0.60. Namely, however, it gives me some play room and by adding or removing stuffing, I should be able to achieve a Qtc that I desire. The upper section, where the midrange concentric will be housed was not targeted for any particular Qtc. I did, however, model up the enclosure size I plan to use (simply by default of bracing location and cabinet size) and found the f3 to about 213hz. This is less than half of the desired crossover point, so I think Im OK here. I wanted the extra room in the enclosure to be able to stuff it with varying materials. A target Qtc isn’t important to me here. Though, managing the internal reflections is. 



On to the build...

I went to a local lumber yard to look at their Birch offerings. $65/sheet for domestic. And it looked good. The problem was they wouldn’t cut the sheet in half for me to fit in my civic. And they closed soon which meant borrowing a truck wasn’t going to happen and I wanted to get started the next day and work on the project during the weekend. I went to the local Home Depot and found they sell 12x48” MDF shelving pieces for about $5/sheet. These were practically perfect for me. $75 later I drove back home with a stack of 13. 

All said and done, I didn’t get too far this weekend. I did manage to cut dados in the main structure pieces for both enclosures to support the 4 braces I plan to have. In my first time ever using a dado, I learned a couple things. So, if you look closely you’ll probably see some bad spots where those lessons were learned. 
I also took a scrap piece of birch and cut some practice holes for the drivers so I’d know exactly what size the OD, ID, and depth was in order to flush mount them. Pictures are below.














Sawdust sucks! Thank goodness for respirators. 



I’ll update this as I go. But that’s pretty much where I stand for now.


----------



## quietfly

is that a collie boarder collie mix?


----------



## ErinH

He's a stray. We took him in last year. I'm told by the vet that he's a purebread. I honestly have no idea but I'll go with that. His coat is short because we tend to keep our dogs hair short since they stay inside.


----------



## schmiddr2

He looks pretty chill. 


So the 10's should give you more midbass capability and better dispersion than the Kefs? After reading some Geddes stuff I start to think about all the home stereos I've seen with very little midbass kick; even though lots of floorstanding speakers say they measure nearly flat I guess a lot of them just don't really play loud below 100Hz. And this brings me to another question, are you going for a flat or curved in room FR?


----------



## ErinH

schmiddr2 said:


> He looks pretty chill.


He's a good dog. Showed up after we moved in and hung around for a few weeks. Long story short, we made him ours. He's made us happy and we've made him happy. Really turned out to be a great addition to our family. It's pretty fun to be able to go outside and have him just hanging around. Dude makes me smile a lot. Especially when he gets excited and wants to play. And he gets along well with my other dogs.




schmiddr2 said:


> So the 10's should give you more midbass capability and better dispersion than the Kefs? After reading some Geddes stuff I start to think about all the home stereos I've seen with very little midbass kick; even though lots of floorstanding speakers say they measure nearly flat I guess a lot of them just don't really play loud below 100Hz. And this brings me to another question, are you going for a flat or curved in room FR?


Well, I can't say for sure about the dispersion of the kefs, but based on everything I've studied and simulated and tested myself with the multiple woofer options, I'd say yes. The floor bounce alone caused by the top woofer would have had an effect in the vertical polar. Unless they used an inductor to low pass it before the bottom woofer. Still, the R500's were awesome. They just didn't have the low end output I wanted. Makes sense as they were only 5.25" drivers. So, by general default they already have a higher Fs and less surface area. The scan, with it's large surface area and klippel measured 10mm of one-way, linear throw is a bad boy that will play low if needed, but at my intended 60hz-ish crossover, they'll do what I want them to do: get loud with extremely low distortion. Every driver in this setup has a THD of less than 0.30% in their intended bandpass at 96dB/1m. That's incredible. 

The curve will depend on the room. My only real concern will be getting the crossover right so that this can be as close to as omni-directional as possible (which won't be hard given the coincidents). The vertical polar will be a bit rougher but that's of less concern to me as our sense of stage isn't driven as much by vertical polars as it is horizontal polar patterns. The size of the room along with positioning relative to reflection will determine the rolloff (if any). The main goal is to get the speakers themselves as anechoically flat as possible, then do any tweaking I need to based on the room. I don't expect to really do much with the EQ above 300/400hz. The reason is simple: the Kef coincident doesn't really have any bad traits in its response and I WANT the sound to radiate evenly. I don't want to create problems that aren't there. But below that, where the room condition takes over, I'll have to apply EQ. With all the Rane DSP I have, I should be fine, though. 

If I do say so myself, this setup is going to rival setups easily in the 5 figure range. It's going to be hard not to given the drivers used and the active dsp setup. And with all the power from those Crowns, there's gonna be a lot of headroom. The tweeters are even going to thump you in the chest. LOL. (I'm exaggerating, of course).


----------



## req

ib cut the walls down :'(


makes me want to build the manifolds for my ib setup with two 18" flatlynes. but the weather has been terrible when i have had time.










what are you using to make your screen? i dont think i read anything about it other than the framework. do you have a plan on what kind of wood you are going to use for the frame? guys online said to use poplar - but i found it was like $3\ft or more - and there was this "recycled" wood that HD had. it was painted white and super straight - plus a full board was only a few bucks. i used that and some flat L brackets on the back.










then i got a 5'x10' sheet of 6mm PVC sheet in a flat white finish and trimmed a bit off the end so that it was the proper size and used velcro strips to attach it to the wood.










in order to hang this, i got two of these french cleat hangers from HD for a few bucks. two on the back of the screen and two on the wall. then you are able to shift left\right and gravity keeps the screen in place.










i would have liked to hang this lower, but the sitting distance is like 23 feet from the wall to the couch. the PJ is about half way, but with a vaulted cieling i dont even notice its up there anymore. the height is a non-issue at this distance. but if i ever move, ill try to do a closet install like you have done.



















seating;












my whole thing is a compromise with living and my wife. i dont have a spare room to work with, so i had to use the living room. we use the PJ every day just about. maybe an episode or two of dexter or something. i have to say - i am very happy with it. i would love it if the room was light-controlled like yours is - but i do what i can with what ive got.

either way - your HT is shaping up to be totally badass. hopefully if i ever visit again, it will be finished


----------



## quietfly

bikinpunk said:


> He's a good dog. Showed up after we moved in and hung around for a few weeks. Long story short, we made him ours. He's made us happy and we've made him happy. Really turned out to be a great addition to our family. It's pretty fun to be able to go outside and have him just hanging around. Dude makes me smile a lot. Especially when he gets excited and wants to play. And he gets along well with my other dogs..........
> 
> 
> And with all the power from those Crowns, there's gonna be a lot of headroom. The tweeters are even going to thump you in the chest. LOL. (I'm exaggerating, of course).


My dogs are my best behaved children.......

and Tweeter thump is awesome, SQL FTW 
:laugh:


----------



## strakele

schmiddr2 said:


> After reading some Geddes stuff I start to think about all the home stereos I've seen with very little midbass kick; even though lots of floorstanding speakers say they measure nearly flat I guess a lot of them just don't really play loud below 100Hz. And this brings me to another question, are you going for a flat or curved in room FR?


If you listened to a car stereo that measured flat, it wouldn't have any midbass kick either, which is why nobody likes a flat curve in a car. Same applies in the home, but it seems like any decent home tower will claim flat FR like it's a good thing. Guess the idea is you add a dedicated sub if you want more?


Anyway, this is a very cool project Erin and I enjoy following it. I wish I had a house where I could do something similar. 2 years...


----------



## ErinH

Andy, I haven't really nailed down a screen yet. (no pun intended)

I was working toward that a couple months ago but then got caught up in the whirlwind of work and also changed a few things, so the screen/projector have taken a back seat. gotta have sound first. 

I'd be curious to know what your gain is on the plexi. I'd not be surprised if it were pretty high, mainly because it's not a fabric. That would work out great for you, assuming it is high, due to your room conditions. But in my room, a high gain screen would cause me more trouble than it would good. If you have any info on that topic, though, feel free to post it up. I'm just making an assumption based on the material but I really have no basis other than that. And nothing to back that thought up.


----------



## ErinH

strakele said:


> Anyway, this is a very cool project Erin and I enjoy following it. I wish I had a house where I could do something similar. 2 years...


you'll be there soon, my friend. I built my first home about 5 years ago. That home was supposed to have an HT but I never could afford to do it. So, when we built this home, I knew I was going to commit to getting an HT. But, I'm being patient and working toward what I want rather than just slapping something together like I had initially planned. Patient... not something I'm good at. lol.


----------



## req

bikinpunk said:


> Andy, I haven't really nailed down a screen yet. (no pun intended)
> 
> I was working toward that a couple months ago but then got caught up in the whirlwind of work and also changed a few things, so the screen/projector have taken a back seat. gotta have sound first.
> 
> I'd be curious to know what your gain is on the plexi. I'd not be surprised if it were pretty high, mainly because it's not a fabric. That would work out great for you, assuming it is high, due to your room conditions. But in my room, a high gain screen would cause me more trouble than it would good. If you have any info on that topic, though, feel free to post it up. I'm just making an assumption based on the material but I really have no basis other than that. And nothing to back that thought up.


the gain is prolly something considering it is plastic and it does reflect. there is a slight hotspot that bugs me (that only i think ive ever noticed, nobody else knows what they are looking at lol). i have intentions on painting it a neutral grey (N7 or so) to bring back some contrast because my PJ is a light cannon. in a room like yours, you shouldnt need a PJ like mine because you can turn all the lights out all times of the day. so painting it darker maybe like an N5 grey would benefit you well i think. there is so much conversation about paint types, addatives, and all that. the basic thing is this. you need some kind of substrate to paint onto. if you screen is smaller than a 4'x8' sheet - you can just use some MDF or a piece of drywall to be honest. i had to go big because my screen was much larger (122" diagonal) than any substrate i could order.

TL: DR - i am going to paint it when the weather warms up and hopefully ive finished my IB install.


speaking of IB - you could literally just cut two plates with 15" holes for those AE's and cut two matching rectangles in the left\right walls and attach the plates to the studs and be done with IB. or put one in each corner. fixing drywall is very easy, specially when you still have the piece you cut out to begin with (that you put inside the wall for when it needs to be put back together). just some spackle, some tape, and some paint sir. then just trim it with some molding or fill and paint match the baffles to the wall.

your situation would be so incredibly easy to do - it would take like 3 hours to put it together.


----------



## ErinH

I've said it a few times regarding IB... It's just not on my priority list ATM. There are issues even with the glorious IB. I sold those AEs off late last year. I'm just not as keen on them as I used to be.


----------



## req

i know 

still makes me sad lol


----------



## bertholomey

I have been hearing bits and pieces of info on this project, even crashed overnight in this room......will have to fly down for a demo when it is complete. 

I love the idea of the DIY speakers, I want to hear a system with that much power available, and those subs should be incredible.


----------



## schmiddr2

Sounds like a solid plan, even though my lack of knowledge about speaker polar patterns has me guessing a little.

The Adyssey 32 uses 8 different measurement/mic positions to find the average FR, is this how you will do your RTA readings? With the sub 300Hz room problems, with the midbass having a flat FR in the passband you will use them in, I wonder where the individual EQ curves will end up.

Are you considering any absorption or reflecting materials for the room? Maybe just some big heavy movie theater curtains.


----------



## ErinH

I'll measure two different ways:
1) Quasi-anechoic to make sure the polar is good and to make sure there are no speaker abberations that need to be remedied. If I wait until I'm in the room, these are harder to determine.
2) In-room measurements will determine the EQ needed to tame any hot spots. I can't say what that will be. But, I'm not a fan of EQ'ing the fire out of a speaker for the sake of it. Though, sometimes it's necessary. Especially with lower frequency response issues.

I'll probably do some light treatment but I don't think I'll be doing anything severe. I won't be covering all my walls and ceiling in 4" thick panels. I know that's for sure. Some people get too crazy with that stuff and suck the life out of a room. If the speaker is good, the room will only enhance the experience.


----------



## ErinH

One of two e112 subs showed up today. Second should be here Monday.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet, can't wait to hear how you like them.


----------



## ErinH

Variable phase knob FTW!


----------



## spyders03

Very cool! My home sub amp has an adjustable phase knob, and it came in handy for sure!


----------



## ErinH

Second sub came in today. Every guy needs a pair. 











Getting close to finishing up the speaker enclosures. Test fitting below. Cutting the internal braces tomorrow. Dados are a big help. Spent more time cutting them out but glad I did.


----------



## yogegoy

Too bad you're at the other end of the country then you could have bought my (3)10ft screens and Amp rack from a company moving out sale that I have.


----------



## Babs

Nice subs Erin!!!  I'd rather do two middle-weight subs than one uber subasaurus. Granted you're rockin' two subzilla's. Daaaaang!  But room modes. Gotta attack those. Two subs I think will help, placed unevenly in the room. I'm sure you know a ****-ton more than I about that. Speaking of modes.. You going to run corner absorption much for flatter low-freq response and less standing wave affects?

Sorry if I missed it. Playing catch up on all these cool threads. What stinks is you're angled ceiling line.. Hard to simply throw the dimensions in one of the mode calculators. I'm in the camp (as un-sound-educated as I am admittedly) that big-time absorption in the corners (ALL corners) ala realtraps philosophy, is one way to address the standing waves causing havoc in the low to mid freq response throughout the room. I guess that's the one thing that stuck when I frequented avsforum.


----------



## bertholomey

bikinpunk said:


> Second sub came in today. Every guy needs a pair.


That should be on a t-shirt.....oh wait, it is


----------



## cajunner

is that a copper-clad steel grounding rod in the corner?

what you gonna do wit' that...


----------



## ErinH

Scott, what happens when you move a speaker or add furniture to a room using one of those mode calculators? See where I'm going with this? Sweating those things is a waste of time. 

Cajunner, it's part of an antenna.


----------



## ErinH

bertholomey said:


> That should be on a t-shirt.....oh wait, it is


yup!


----------



## Babs

bikinpunk said:


> Scott, what happens when you move a speaker or add furniture to a room using one of those mode calculators? See where I'm going with this? Sweating those things is a waste of time.


Well sure, there's variation caused by furniture but I'd still consider some level of bass absorption in the corners, YMMV.  Just suggestion. 

I probably won't go completely silly overboard with it, but simple recipe of stacked triangles of insulation board / acoustic cotton / some other shhtuff, behind a stretched GOM face, in at least a couple corners, and probably some floating 4" panels in other corners, along with early reflection wall panels. Nothing terribly extensive compared to some audio-room or home theaters, but just some minimal treatment. 2-wall edges and especially 3-wall corners are where the biggest bang for buck is for flattening out the low-mid response. Side and front walls for early absorption from the speaks. Nothing anechoic by any means.

LOL 









I dunno.. You might play with it.. Before/After. I've heard a modestly treated room before/after with reflection absorption and just a few corners with bass absorption and a little diffusion in the rear.. The difference was quite noticeable in the seats. 

I guess it's a matter of what you like.. Some folks like to hear the room as an instrument as much as the system.


----------



## quietfly

those subs are sexy!!!!


----------



## ErinH

Scott, I didn't say I wouldn't use treatment. I was just saying I don't put much worry in to the simulations of modal response. I'll deal with that once I get in the room. The real problem isn't the sub-response anyway. It's typically further beyond this in to the Schroeder frequency, which a room is in the 200hz ballpark (the car is closer to the 300-400hz area). Size dependent, of course. Room treatment will help and so will some good ol' parametric EQ. 

I've spent countless hours playing with absorption calculations. Here's a good one when you get to that point:
Porous Absorber Calculator

The hard part is finding viscosity values for some mystery materials.


----------



## Babs

Nice.. You have the game plan dialed in for sure man. 

Those new subs remind me of the old Paradigm Servo 15 I had.. Brings a tear.


----------



## Babs

Nice.. You have the game plan dialed in for sure man. 

Those new subs remind me of the old Paradigm Servo 15 I had.. Brings a tear.


----------



## ErinH

My Facebook friends probably have seen this same post so feel free to ignore...

My Oppo blu ray player showed up a couple days ago packaged like it came from Ft Knox. Complete with its own shopping bag. Crazy...





























I haven't fired it up yet. Still waiting to finish the towers. Which are taking a bit longer now that I've decided to brace it up for WWIII purposes. Here's a couple pictures of the progress. Excuse the middle brace toward the bottom. It's hack-job-city because I realized I forgot to cut the air holes... After it was already glued in to place. I've said it numerous times, I am not a good fabricator. I'm getting better with practice and patience but I always seem to get tripped up on simple oversights. And the fact that I can't cut a perfect square to save my life. 
So, with that said, the pictures are for illustration and not for showing off. 
But at least I can say it's all mine and at the end of the day, it'll get done the way I want it. It just isn't as easy of a process as I'd like it to be. 

I'll be adding more tie rod than shown below. There's really no scientific method here TBH. Just me putting the supports where I think it will help. The center is there because that's the least supported area. I'll have thread rod running on the sides and front/back. My goal is to tie each plane together by clamping a brace or wall via nut/washer on both sides. That way, for example, the front and rear baffles move together in tension and compression rather than just compression as they would with a simple brace. I won't treat the midrange enclosure as heavily with bracing because it won't need it. The gap you see made by the 3rd and 4th shelves from the bottom is intentional. It further separates the woofer from the mid by adding another layer of density (air density). And the rods running through that gap will help make sure there is no vibration imparted on the mid chamber. 

Again, this is me playing around with ideas; I don't know how this really will turn out. But if it's like I'm thinking, I'll have an extremely inert cabinet with little to no coloration to the sound caused by the cabinet walls, at a (relatively) light weight.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Nice Oppo, I'm considering using one to pass signal to one of the new Dirac MiniDSP units for room correction.


----------



## bertholomey

bikinpunk said:


> Again, this is me playing around with ideas; I don't know how this really will turn out. But if it's like I'm thinking, I'll have an extremely inert cabinet with little to no coloration to the sound caused by the cabinet walls, at a (relatively) light weight.


Very cool! This reminds me of the Q5's 










I can't wait to hear them!


----------



## ErinH

Architect7 said:


> Nice Oppo, I'm considering using one to pass signal to one of the new Dirac MiniDSP units for room correction.


I saw that email last month and it caught my attention. But, IIRC, they're only going to start with a 2-channel version. They do have an "HT" miniDSP so maybe that one will get Dirac, too. Time will tell. Emo will be using Dirac in their upcoming Pre/Pro (whenver the heck they actually release it). 

That said, I'm not interested. With the goal of the speaker, I don't want to have a system try to auto tune to the room and remove the baseline behavior - the crux of why I built it myself - of the speaker. I'm told Dirac is miles better than Audyssey and that may be true. But, I'm not sure how well these programs account for polar response in a speaker vs the room. 

Besides that, the miniDSP's output voltage isn't enough to make the most of my Crown amps. The max output when even running balanced is spec'd at 2v RMS. The Rane will put out about 11v RMS. Plus it acts as an excellent unbalanced/balanced converter which is what's needed with the Oppo. I'll be using the Oppo as a pre-amp and those who have, have complained about noise floor issues. I don't know for sure, but my gut tells me the reason they're experiencing noise issues is because they're taking a weak ~1v RMS signal from the Oppo and running it in to a pro-audio amp that needs more than that to do what is needed. This would be akin to people in car audio cranking the amp gains and thus boosting the overal noise floor when the input voltage isn't sufficient. And with pro-audio amps, going from consumer level to pro level, if you don't have the juice to feed them, you'll never get the volume you want in addition to raising the noise floor. Then you factor in all the DSP power I have with the Ranes and it's a better fit than the miniDSP. 

Not trying to downplay your potential choices, but I like the Oppo/Rane/Crown combo much more than any other alternatives for my personal tastes. I'm just hoping it works like I'm thinking it will. And if it does, it'll be a thing of beauty. lol. I'm just not a fan of the miniDSP options for my setup. BUT, if the Dirac versions turn out well AND they boost the output voltage, they may have a big hit on their hands. 



bertholomey said:


> Very cool! This reminds me of the Q5's
> 
> I can't wait to hear them!


I've not seen that speaker before. Who makes that?


----------



## bertholomey

bikinpunk said:


> I've not seen that speaker before. Who makes that?


Magico


Magico......fantastic speakers - I heard the S1's at a buddy's house - extremely faithful to the music - beautiful as well.


----------



## ErinH

yea... there's the picture here:
Magico Q5 loudspeaker Page 3 | Stereophile.com

387 lbs PER SPEAKER. Holy cow, man. That is insane! I won't be going THAT gung ho. I still have to get these up a flight of stairs, you know.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

bikinpunk said:


> I saw that email last month and it caught my attention. But, IIRC, they're only going to start with a 2-channel version. They do have an "HT" miniDSP so maybe that one will get Dirac, too. Time will tell. Emo will be using Dirac in their upcoming Pre/Pro (whenver the heck they actually release it).
> 
> That said, I'm not interested. With the goal of the speaker, I don't want to have a system try to auto tune to the room and remove the baseline behavior - the crux of why I built it myself - of the speaker. I'm told Dirac is miles better than Audyssey and that may be true. But, I'm not sure how well these programs account for polar response in a speaker vs the room.
> 
> Besides that, the miniDSP's output voltage isn't enough to make the most of my Crown amps. The max output when even running balanced is spec'd at 2v RMS. The Rane will put out about 11v RMS. Plus it acts as an excellent unbalanced/balanced converter which is what's needed with the Oppo. I'll be using the Oppo as a pre-amp and those who have, have complained about noise floor issues. I don't know for sure, but my gut tells me the reason they're experiencing noise issues is because they're taking a weak ~1v RMS signal from the Oppo and running it in to a pro-audio amp that needs more than that to do what is needed. This would be akin to people in car audio cranking the amp gains and thus boosting the overal noise floor when the input voltage isn't sufficient. And with pro-audio amps, going from consumer level to pro level, if you don't have the juice to feed them, you'll never get the volume you want in addition to raising the noise floor. Then you factor in all the DSP power I have with the Ranes and it's a better fit than the miniDSP.
> 
> Not trying to downplay your potential choices, but I like the Oppo/Rane/Crown combo much more than any other alternatives for my personal tastes. I'm just hoping it works like I'm thinking it will. And if it does, it'll be a thing of beauty. lol. I'm just not a fan of the miniDSP options for my setup. BUT, if the Dirac versions turn out well AND they boost the output voltage, they may have a big hit on their hands.
> 
> 
> 
> I've not seen that speaker before. Who makes that?


I've read they have an HDMI option planned which is what I would get. Also full 96khz resolution compared to the XMC-1 which is rumored to be limited to 48khz per a Dirac employee at CES.

When you are talking about 2v max output for a miniDSP, you are referring to the 2x4 unbalanced, correct? The 2x8 will output up to 8v balanced which would work with your Crown amps. Hopefully the Dirac version will retain this preamp voltage. I've owned many proaudio amps and the 2x8 drove them to full clipping no problem at all.

As for room correction itself, Dirac is supposedly light years better than Audyssey, especially because it does not attempt to modify the signal above a certain frequency which is what you seem to be concerned with. This should help preserve your speaker's polar response at the more directional frequencies while doing what it does best at the frequencies most impacted by your room (sub 500hz). I wasn't a believer in room correction until I ran ARC in my system and the lack of "room boom" has made everything so much better. If you want to go a step further, place your JL subs on pieces of thick foam or buy Auralex isolation pads. I have my Rythmik on an Auralex GRAMMA and the difference is night and day. Bass is now cleaner and defined and my bathroom mirror no longer flexes during the opening scene of Elysium 

When I had a Denon AVR-X4000, Audyssey XT32 attenuated my top end to make my ribbons sound dull and lifeless. Now I use an Anthem AVR which caps room correction to 5khz and my speakers are alive and well again, polar response is back! Dirac also handles phase better than any other room correction I have researched, one of the reasons it is so sought after by the DIY HTPC crowd hoping to imitate the $20k+ Theta and Datasat pre/pros as closely as possible. I recommend checking out Computer Audiophile - The Original and Preeminent Source for Computer Audio & Music Server Information and Reviews where one of the Dirac employees answers many questions including those related to phase correction.

But yes, it is yet to be seen how well Dirac will be implemented in the miniDSP boards. I am sure Datasat and Theta are making sure they don't give the farm away for free, similar to how the XMC-1 is getting a watered down version with limited resolution.


----------



## ErinH

Last night I added two additional runs of 3/8" tie rod to allow for a mdf shelf to support the woofer magnet. That's what the short mdf run is for (it's even with the yellow drill in the picture).

Thing is, it took about two hours to get that sucker in place and used about $30 in hardware. All to support a woofer that may not need to be supported. So I'm considering removing it and just using the single center rod. I guess I'm just not sure there's any benefit there and if the potential is worth the hassle.


----------



## cajunner

the riddle of steel...?


----------



## schmiddr2

I didn't even consider this was the type of enclosure you would build. That is rather complicated, but you seem to have it under control. Is insulation better at preventing rear wave problems than something like eggshell?


----------



## t3sn4f2

bikinpunk said:


> Last night I added two additional runs of 3/8" tie rod to allow for a mdf shelf to support the woofer magnet. That's what the short mdf run is for (it's even with the yellow drill in the picture).
> 
> Thing is, it took about two hours to get that sucker in place and used about $30 in hardware. All to support a woofer that may not need to be supported. So I'm considering removing it and just using the single center rod. I guess I'm just not sure there's any benefit there and if the potential is worth the hassle.


Looks really good Erin. Supporting the motor probably won't be needed as long as the front baffle isn't so wide that it flexes back and forth. Which it doesn't appear to be. It is probably even better not to support it so that and cabinet resonances left won't have a direct transfer point. Let them be reduce by having to travel to the solid baffle and through the basket.

Have you thought about sticking something on the bottom cavity in order to lower the center of gravity. In case any kiddies come around and accidentally lean or push on it. Something like exterior concrete tile cut to fit and screwed in place with Tapcons from the bottom would work great and be easy and cheap to implement.


----------



## ErinH

The above was carried over from the PE forum, so here's the latest update.


I went and bought more tie-rod. Though, I dropped the woofer support idea. I don't think it's necessary.




Some CLD on the midrange enclosure section



Insulation/foam/stuffing, with some side threaded rods added to the woofer section.




Close ups, showing some LLP for added mass loading to the midrange enclosure.


----------



## Kevin K

How many woofers are you gonna use per tower?


----------



## ErinH

a single SS 10" woofer.


----------



## Kevin K

Should work out very nice.
Double baffle recessed?


----------



## ErinH

yep.

there will be front/back tie rod put in, too, to bind those two faces together.


----------



## ErinH

Some notes: 
Man, this is taking much longer than I really intended. I intended to have these completed this weekend but my daughter came down a virus Friday, and Saturday was spent at a baseball game followed by a 4-hour stint putting together a basketball goal together. 

The woofer section is SOLID. I can tap on that section and I get nothing but a solid thud. I imagine once the front/rear rods go in I'll have a very stout construction. Much moreso than I would with additional shelf bracing. And the placement of the rods at the center of each plane are intended to stop transmission at the weakest points; the corners have natural corner bracing. Before the rods went in, you could hear a noticeable difference between the center section and ends by tapping on them. I think adding rods at the edges of the enclosure wouldn't be beneficial. Still, this is me going by gut. With nothing more than trying to use some simple methods and logic to define the needs. I wish I had access to some CFD programs to see if what I'm doing here is as useful as I'm thinking it is. 

I'm not sold on adding rod to the midrange section. As it is, it's not *dead* like the woofer section when you do the knuckle-rap test, but if the goal is lower the Fo, then stiffening won't do that; mass loading will. So, that's why I've added the CLD and Foam/MLV layer to that section. 

I believe I'm going to leave the gap between the woofer and midrange enclosure as is. Adding foam such as great stuff is going to be incredibly messy and will only serve to further couple these two sections which isn't necessarily what I want. (unless I used a WHOLE lot of the window & door version which is designed to remain flexible)
I wanted the gap to act as an additional buffer of desnsity between the two sections. The name of the game in sound attenuation is changing density. By leaving an air gap with some slight acousta-stuffing, I think this serves the purpose well. Sony actually does something similar it seems with their flagship AR-1 speakers. I was reading their "white paper" on the Sony SS AR1 speaker and they mention leaving an air gap between the woofer enclosure and mid enclosure in the cabinet. Start on page 6. Here's the excerpt:


> _What appears from the outside to be a single enclosure is actually divided inside by two thick birch partitions with an air cavity in between. Just as a double-pane window with air in between helps provide thermal insulation in winter, the partitions and air cavity create two well-insulated enclosures: one for the woofer and one for the midrange/tweeter. The mid/tweeter sub-enclosure is also vented with a bass reflex port that’s been carefully tuned and positioned._


Note: This "white paper" is much more like marketing. But, it's still an interesting idea.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

The tie-rod idea is pretty brilliant, I will definitely be incorporating that in my dedicated 2 channel build.


----------



## ErinH

It took me an hour and a half to cut the hole for the kef. I test cut on two separate pieces of mdf to make sure I got the flush depth right. The flush mount is about as perfect as I could ask for. 
There's a fine line between too much and too little in the ID, so I cut that on the smaller side and spent a good 20 minutes sanding a but and test fitting until I got it just right. 

This is just a test fit to see how it's coming together which explains the clamps. I will chamfer the inside for the mid. I still have other things to do before I worry about attaching the front piece permanently. But it's actually starting to come together. Woot!


----------



## bertholomey

That looks fantastic my friend.....and you say you are not much of a fabricator.......Top Shelf from what I can see!


----------



## ErinH

Yep, you can indeed see the top shelf through the midrange hole. 




Thanks, dude.


----------



## Niebur3

So Erin, I have to ask......I have seen many people go to this level with 2-channel audio in the home, but not too much with HT (although I don't follow that too much).....what is the point if you are just going to watch movies? I mean, the fab work and driver selection is stunning, but to hear Denzel Washington's voice to be a little more lifelike or something? Or are you going to be using this for 2-channel audio as well? I think part of it is personally, with kids and life, I don't watch that many movies but I know some people do.

FWIW, I have a 10-15 year old Infinity Modulus System powered by a Onkyo Receiver. I have thought about making some towers like you are with some drivers I had, but haven't been able to justify the time/effort with our lack of movie watching...lol. I think we go out to the theatre to watch new movies more than we watch new ones in our house....which still is only a handful a year...lol!


----------



## ErinH

I'm not sure why people think you can't have a killer stereo system as part of a surround system. 

Does that answer your question?


----------



## spyders03

bikinpunk said:


> I'm not sure why people think you can't have a killer stereo system as part of a surround system


This is very true, and as much as I live listening to music, if I'm sitting at home (specially with a wife and kid) I am much more likely to be watching tv or watching movies than listening to my stereo. And since most regular HD broadcasting is now in at least 5.1, I don't see why not to invest in a great HT system. I still turn off everything but my front towers and sub for music, and I love it. 

Swyped while Swerving


----------



## Niebur3

bikinpunk said:


> I'm not sure why people think you can't have a killer stereo system as part of a surround system.
> 
> Does that answer your question?


Well, I never said you couldn't. I asked if that was what you were doing rather then just doing it solely for HT, so I guess so. Although for me, not doing much jamming in my house with wife and kids either.  Although, I still do some RockBand with a few friends every now and then....it would be really cool for that....lol!

It's a really cool build and I am looking forward to watching you bring it to life. Good luck with it.


----------



## spyders03

> Although, I still do some RockBand with a few friends every now and then....it would be really cool for that.


I never thought about this, awesome idea!

Swyped while Swerving


----------



## ErinH

The answer is yes, it's an HT room with a solid foundation in sound. 

my point was more in the vein of people on various forums assuming that the two have to be separated. truth be told, if your goal with your stereo is to reproduce what's on the disc as faithfully as possible, wouldn't you want that same goal for HT? HT has effects, sure, but you're still reproducing what's on the disc. 

This is going to be the movie room but also my hang out to go and relax from time to time. and the 'dance party' room. so 2-channel music is as important to me as having video. I've been using headphones for a long time now to veg out. I'm ready for some real speakers.


----------



## Niebur3

bikinpunk said:


> The answer is yes, it's an HT room with a solid foundation in sound.
> 
> my point was more in the vein of people on various forums assuming that the two have to be separated. truth be told, if your goal with your stereo is to reproduce what's on the disc as faithfully as possible, wouldn't you want that same goal for HT? HT has effects, sure, but you're still reproducing what's on the disc.
> 
> This is going to be the movie room but also my hang out to go and relax from time to time. and the 'dance party' room. so 2-channel music is as important to me as having video. I've been using headphones for a long time now to veg out. I'm ready for some real speakers.


Again, wasn't trying to insinuate anything...man I hate trying to type what I am trying to say....comes across so differently then implied sometimes.

I actually, IMHO, think that is the only way to do it now-a-days. Incorporate both. This much for for only a HT, a waste. BUT, incorporate 2 channel goodness, especially if you can take advantage of it. 

I might have to save this thread and incorporate (steal) some of your ideas and make some badass towers for when we do the RockBand thing. I know, that is so like 2008 or something, but we have over 400 songs and it is such a stress release for me.....hang out, sometimes we drink, sometimes we don't, but just listen to awesome music while playing silly plastic instruments trying to get 5 GOLD stars on expert on every song.....with your best friends! Good times!


----------



## n_olympios

Nice stuff. 

Have you tested (via software) where the mid driver should go on the baffle? It seems to me you have it bang in the center (left/right) and that's usually a no-no, when you want to limit diffractions.


----------



## ErinH

I have. The simulated difference is so negligible it's not worth sweating. The baffle dip and bump can be resolved via EQ. The real problem anyway is the height, which is not going to change since that's at the ear level. Moving the driver to the side smooths the diffraction some (by 1dB tops) but it's not worth moving the driver off center, either. 

I have TONS of simulations and real measurements I made using LEAP and with a real test enclosure, if you want to see them here. Mostly it was done to get the feel for a dual woofer response, but you can see some midrange/tweeter measurements taken on the real (test) speaker as well. 
Kef DIY Build Photos by bikinpunk | Photobucket


----------



## n_olympios

I knew you wouldn't disappoint. 

Goes to show the amazing work KEF have done with those drivers.


----------



## ErinH

n_olympios said:


> I knew you wouldn't disappoint.
> 
> Goes to show the amazing work KEF have done with those drivers.


Even when I was on work travel, I was playing with bass box pro on the plane. I've been obsessing over every detail of this build, even though some of those details were ultimately left out or ignored. At this point, I'm just ready to be finished. I have to keep throttling myself down so I don't rush and mess something up like I always do. So far, that's worked well for me. I just gotta keep that going. lol.


----------



## req

well erin, it looks like you are doing an awesome job. so just keep it up till the end and you will succeed!!

step 1. build house. (check)
step 2. dedicated room. (chek)
step 3. rocket science (check)

lol


----------



## stereo_luver

I saw a VERY interesting idea concerning subs in a HT system today. The guy who does my tube amp mods and repairs is building a HT room at his shop. His set-up was more inline with conventional HT systems. Not using a processor like a RANE or DBX. He is using a pre/pro with external amps. The kicker was that he is using plate amps for his subs. The subs are in cabinets being fed by the plate amps that are mounted in his rack.

BTW: I found a used server rack in pretty good condition if you still want a rack for your gear.

Chuck


----------



## ErinH

Chuck, shoot me an email about the rack. I'm pretty happy with the one I made but I may still be interested.


----------



## ErinH

Another 1.5 hours cutting the woofer hole out. This part makes me a nervous wreck given how much time has been spent already on the baffles with the dados, and double baffle. Don't wanna screw em up. That would SUCK!

So, this is what I managed tonight. The woofer is flushed in. 






















I ordered some t-nuts and screws from Madisound and hadn't even considered the diameter of the mounting holes... and guess what... the screws were too large. No big deal, just take a step bit to the $300 driver and make the holes bigger.  
You can see that they have indeed been enlarged by looking at the exposed metal (silver) in the mounting hole. 












For reference, that's a 10" woofer and it looks like a baby in that tower. These things are _seriously _imposing and that's exactly what I want. I want to sit down in front a speaker that you KNOW is about to deliver the goods. I'm really, really looking forward to firing these up. Still gotta finish this one and then move to the other one.


----------



## strakele

Interesting departure from more 'conventional' designs using multiple mids and woofers. 

May have missed it, but is the distance between the mid and woofer calculated to achieve a certain desired effect?


----------



## schmiddr2

^^^ First thing I thought also.

I like the look of them; maybe I missed it but what is the plan for the exterior?


----------



## ErinH

I covered the spacing in an earlier post I believe. Regarding floor bounce.


----------



## ErinH

Niebur3 said:


> Again, wasn't trying to insinuate anything...man I hate trying to type what I am trying to say....comes across so differently then implied sometimes.



No worries, Jerry. I know what you mean with regards to text and intent not being cohesive sometimes.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Too late for a base?

http://robmoores1.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/dscf1118.jpg


----------



## ErinH

Nope. Just not sure I want one because when I see it,
I see a speaker with crown moulding on the bottom which seems tacky. I've considered it though, but not leaning toward it too much. Still working on this...


----------



## cajunner

just can't see those little Kef drivers taking that kind of power over a couple of hours.

I know they're stout looking and all, but aren't they running through a huge power soak in the passive crossover they come with?

I was thinking maybe we could use them in a bedroom setup and leave the super duty HT to some professional products?

Because we're just being careful, right...


----------



## ErinH

It's not like they'll be set to receive 500w at full tilt all the time. That's what the volume knob is for.


----------



## WLDock

Erin, great project you got going....I love the DIY home theater concept. Your enclosures remind me a little of this guys sub build: Sealed Stereo Integrity HT-18D2 [build thread] but I think yours are more extreme given the the bolt down ability, ILove it!

One day I hope to do the same. I need to build the enclosure for my SI HT15 sub as I recently found a used EP2500 for super cheap ($75!)to power it. The this thing has a blown channel that I can repair if I decide to add a second sub. Right not this will complete my system for a little while as my rented space is small. Well, I am looking for a used Onkyo 818 like what you are using...I want to try out XT32.

Anyway, when I decide to buy I will be seeking space for a dedicated theater/ and maybe listening room. I want to build the Statements towers:Statements. Not sure if I want to use them as a 2 ch speaker or for HT as my Polk RT3000P's kick pretty well in the role. Still, your build is inspiring...keep up the good work, I look forward to the updates.


----------



## WLDock

Oh, not sure what your plans are to finish off the speakers but.... Myself, I wanted an espresso finished wood veneer for my sub build. Then I looked at cost and time and started looking for other solutions. I ordered some free samples of woodgrain Formica and found a finish that should complement well with my Rosewood veneer Polk speaker. This is the look I was originally after, the espresso finished Seaton Submerssive: Finish Options - a Collection of Photos - Seaton Sound Discussion Forum
I think I settled on the Wenge Woodbine finish: http://www.formica.com/en/us/products/laminate-trade-professional?dfs=&st=2&df=Woodgrains&f=&shs= I also like the Prestige Walnut and love the Acajou Mahogany finish in person, the free samples look much different in person than the images on the net. Check them out yourself if you are after an affordable yet durable finish that looks like veneer from a distance.


----------



## ErinH

Just FWIW, I actually sent my onkyo back. I just didn't care much for it. I'm planning on running directly out if the Oppo in to the Rane DSPs for all my signal processing. The oppo has an HDMI input that I can use for the appletv or directv box. Going direct from the oppo saves me money and is one less thing in the chain to worry about. Hopefully the preamp on the oppo combined with the Rane's ability to boost line level voltage to high levels is enough to keep me satisfied. As of now that's the only unknown to me. I've had the oppo hooked up to my TV downstairs and the load time is SUPERB! It takes my Sony BDP (which isn't but a couple years old) about 10-20 seconds to load up a disc and it takes the oppo no more than 3-4 for everything I've thrown at it so far.


----------



## WLDock

Which one do you have? The 105? Interesting...not a bad idea at all going direct to the Rane. Those units seem to be so awesome and have tons of features and options. I want the 103D myself for HT...and would love to try the 105 as a direct source preamp for a 2 ch system. The 103D might happen at some point...but the 105 ain't cheap. I wish I knew of someone that had one I could play with or test. My bud back in MI Anthony has the 95, we used it as a source when we tested the AP and TB 3" mids years back....I might have to check it out again.

I also want to play around with miniDSP and the UMIK-1 with Dirac Live.


----------



## ErinH

103 is what I'm using. Considered the 103D but didn't want to spend that much. Darby looks cool but I dunno... I have a 30 day return window, though, in case I change my mind.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Erin, dunno if you've seen this before but here it is anyways. I remember Abmolech mentioning it long ago but I never gave it much thought. 

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Driver%20Decoupling.doc

Issues in speaker design - 2


----------



## ErinH

Yep. Read over it numerous times.


----------



## ErinH

First sweep on the woofer in the box and I nailed the Qtc. More likely luck than skill. 

Test fit everything together. This sucker is huge and heavy. Gotta finish the other speaker and then prep for paint. But getting closer.


----------



## Niebur3

I thought .707 was optimal. You seem to be .008 off. Better start all over. Lol. 

Great job Erin!!!!


----------



## ErinH

I've already thrown it all in the garbage!


----------



## ErinH

Finished the build of both this weekend. Neutrik connectors and all. Woot!

Picture of one completed.










After the initial woofer sweep, up next was to make sure everything played. I set some fairly generic crossovers on the towers through the Rane and lugged them upstairs. Hooked them up and was grinning from ear to ear for the next 30 minutes. They sound phenomenal. So. Much dynamics and incredible tonality. The soundstage is just plain stupid. By far the best speakers I've ever heard. So much promise. 

Can't wait to get some fine TA and level matching going. I was going to paint them but think I may wait until after the NC meet so I can work more on my car's tune and maybe even wax/polish it if I have time. So for the time being I think the speakers will be plain mdf. Plus, after two months, I need a break from this build. 

I'll post measurements once I've gotten to that point as I tweak the crossover and other DSP driven aspects. Once this is done I'm gonna have to have a meet of my own just to get some others' ears and subjective feedback.


----------



## knever3

Awesome job, to the lamen those speakers would look just average, but to one in the know they are fantastic!! I'm glad they meet your requirements, which is not an easy task I'm sure! I didn't catch the specifics about the Kef drivers you are using, is there really a tweeter in the voice coil?


----------



## schmiddr2

They look quite different from the normal floorstanding speaker, I like it. And GJ with the enclosure volume.

PS, I have the same bin box, it's a must have.


----------



## ErinH

knever3 said:


> Awesome job, to the lamen those speakers would look just average, but to one in the know they are fantastic!! I'm glad they meet your requirements, which is not an easy task I'm sure! I didn't catch the specifics about the Kef drivers you are using, is there really a tweeter in the voice coil?


Yea, they don't look fancy. And they won't even after I've painted them. I'm shooting for a simple satin black; something that matches the rest of the speakers in the room. To anyone else, they'd look like a speaker. But to those who know what's in them, it's a different story. Especially when you realize they're fully active and the ridiculous power going to each speaker. Once I get some time to really dial the crossover between mid/tweeter and use the EQ a bit to smooth any response issues, it's gonna be on. I've got about $2k in these speakers and they easily will compete with $10k+ speakers. I targeted the big boys and they are overachievers at that. I don't brag, but I'm doing it now. I should have expected great performance with the time and money I put in to these but you never know what the end result really will be until it's done. At this stage, it's already doing more than I thought. I mean, the soundstange... unfriggin' believable. The depth in recordings now are so much more pronounced. And the dynamic impact. I'm drooling. lol. 

Yes, it is a concentric driver. 



schmiddr2 said:


> They look quite different from the normal floorstanding speaker, I like it. And GJ with the enclosure volume.
> 
> PS, I have the same bin box, it's a must have.


Those little bins are awesome. I've got a couple more. Just nowhere to really put them. My garage is in total disarray right now. I've got piles of clamps on the floor with tubes of silicone, random sound deadener, acoustic foam, tools, etc all just strewn about. The amazing thing is I actually know where pieces are when I need them because I've been putting them back in the same spot for the past month now. lol.


Standing next to the speaker is pretty intimidating. They're about 50" tall and are heavy as heck. I'm going to weigh them just to see what my poor back has been having to deal with the past month, getting the speaker up and down on the bench and outside/inside the garage for cutting. 

The thing I'm happiest about is how well the driver cutouts went. I practiced on a couple different sheets. probably spent a good 3 hours making practice cuts and trying different diameters to make sure I got the ID and OD right along with the relief depth for flush mounting. I was a NERVOUS WRECK when I started cutting the baffles but luckily it all turned out right in the end.


----------



## schmiddr2

Big jobs usually have a proportional sized mess at the end  . And the cutouts do look great. I'd be pleased with that no doubt about it.


----------



## Blazemore

Erin - what speaker wire / cables are you using? Anything special? Any suggestions? Finally acquired my three xls 1500's and wring them up.


----------



## ErinH

I've got various speaker wire around the house so I'll just use whatever scraps I have.


----------



## quietfly

those towers look fantastic!!!! wish i could hear them....


----------



## ErinH

Thanks! They still need to be painted... or vinyl wrapped (likely the direction I'm going to go). I've just been a bit lazy with it the past month or so. Looking forward to getting them hooked up and start testing them but not really in a rush right now, TBH.


----------



## Se7en

Looking really good. How do you like those Kefs?


----------



## ErinH

lugged the pair upstairs and moved the rack in to the room to make wiring it up quicker. I set simple crossovers on it by ear but plan to measure it all once I get some time to. Right now I have the following crossovers:
Scan Midbass - HPF: None. LPF: 480hz, LR4.
Kef Mid - HPF: 480hz, LR4. LPF: 2.8khz, LR4.
Kef Tweeter - HPF: 2.8khz, Bessel 18dB.


This stuff gets STUPID loud and incredibly clean. I hit 106dB full range at about 8 feet listening distance and the speakers didn't even flinch. These are just downright impressive. I'm looking forward to tweaking the crossovers further and dialing it in once I determine the final placement. But for now with the 'out of the box' crossovers, it's just scary good. 

That said, I've also considering doing something different due to changing priorities. But, that's still TBD. It just depends on how things work out in the next month. 


Here's a few pictures. Keep in mind the subs on the floor are 12 inch JL Audio E112 subs. That gives you an idea of how friggin' large these towers are. 
To recap, the tweeters are powered via a Crown XLS1500, mids are powered by a Crown XLS2000 and woofers are powered by a Crown XLS2000. The Rane RPM26Z at the top of the rack area is the DSP and the Oppo at the very top feeds in to the Rane (and another Rane RPM88 at the very bottom, blocked by the sub, which feeds signal to the center, surround, and subs).


----------



## req

Wish this was there when I was around for finals  

If you don't mind me asking, are you going to finish these in any way? What about the nuts and bolts on the side of the towers?


----------



## ErinH

Not sure on the finish yet. Still thinking about it and some other possibilities.


----------



## quietfly

if you are REALLLY lazy you could just flock them... plus i'm sure the flocking would add to some sort of reflective dampening there by making us all more jealous of your set up  

but seriously flocking would be very easy and probably very eloquent looking in your application.


----------



## ErinH

Heck, I have considered just throwing black grille cloth over them for the time being. Saves me the trouble of making grilles. Lol.

I ordered a ton of flat black vinyl for a different project that has been scrapped. So I may just cover them in that. I've seen some VERY impressive vinyl wrap speakers when searching recently.


----------



## cajunner

Definitive technology sock, and a rattle can of flat black... if you're adventurous, you could put glass on top like the old JBL cabs. then you could put a small hanging ivy, silk house plant on that, and bring a little green in the room...


----------



## schmiddr2

I built a computer desk/bookcase out of MDF. I used shellac to seal then wood, then painted. Was very easy. You might want to do a light sanding using steel wool or fine grit sandpaper after shellac if it has raised fibers. The finish is very durable and the wood has not had any problems from moisture/humidity.

Those exposed bolts might give it a modern/industrial look. Or cover them with a raised "racing stripe" feature using MDF.


----------



## ErinH

I've definitely done due diligence to determining the various methods of finish. I just have to pick one and then find the time/motivation. Paint, vinyl, whatever it is... I don't really care at this very moment. I'm just happy to have them done and that everything is working properly. Nothing like getting everything hooked up and finding something doesn't work. the rest is just cosmetic at this point which is at the bottom of my list right now.


----------



## schmiddr2

I understand completely. It's not like you have a deadline and you got them ready to play so give them a go. I would be doing the same.

And I really like the proportions. They seem to say I'm big but not crowded with speakers.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Erin, since you researched this, let me ask you. Can the baffle have right angled edges, or does it have to be rounded over? Or does it depend on the the acoustic design of the cabin, like baffle width? 

I ask because I'm planning on building some custom enclosures for my Q100 drivers, and the ones they came in have right angled edges but the grill has the traditional round over on them. Makes me think they designed them with the intent of having the grill in place for better sound.


----------



## ErinH

There's a really good thread on diyaudio that actually discusses this with a Kef engineer involved in the discussion. I think his stance was it was more to do with termination of the driver to the baffle and the baffle's shape (ie; flat or curved) as opposed to the edges.

In this particular instance, a small roundover may help or it may not. It's interesting to note the R-series speakers from Kef do not have a roundover at all. Then the LS50, hts3001se both have curved cabs. Then you get to the blade.... 

Needless to say, I can't achieve that kind of design with my experience level. And there's more to it than simply curving an enclosure as it is part of the speaker response at that stage. But a simple 1/2" roundover isn't going to make or break a design like mine.


----------



## t3sn4f2

Ah ok. Looks like they put some of that though into this grill as well, since the opening for the driver is the exact same size as the driver. Instead of just make the grill as transparent as possible and use the actual baffle exclusively, they made the grill a baffle extension of sorts. 

I think what I'll do since I want to use a grill anyways is mimic the stock grill design. Just a longer version for a tower.

Thanks


----------



## ErinH

ordered my projector (refurb Epson 8350) and screen. I may have video up by this weekend, though the room will take a bit more time before it's completed. 

Pumped!


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Put a big fat roundover on that speaker! It will improve the imaging. The Kef Blade and LS50 are curved for a reason.

You mentioned a 1/2" roundover; that'll be good to about 6khz. So GO BIG. A 2" roundover is good to to about 850hz. Just grab some 4" PVC and cut it up with a bandsaw.



















^^ here's mine. Still not finished.


----------



## ErinH

The R-series have no roundover.

The ls50 and blade have curved cabinets that are part of the waveguide itself in some fashion. That's an entirely different world than a regular ol' roundover. Any roundover I'd do would be purely cosmetic. The most important aspect is the termination of the tweeter to the mid and baffle.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

bikinpunk said:


> The R-series have no roundover.
> 
> The ls50 and blade have curved cabinets that are part of the waveguide itself in some fashion. That's an entirely different world than a regular ol' roundover.


I'd argue that's by design. Similar to how I can't get a nice interior in a Toyota Prius. They save the good stuff for Lexus. IE, Kef uses a roundover in the more expensive speakers because it sounds better, but leaves it out on the less expensive speakers because they need to justify the added expense of moving up the line.


























Sharp edges are bad; B&W, Revel, Kef, Tad... They all use a roundover near the tweeter and midrange. Probably the single easiest way to improve the sound of any speaker.









Felt is ugly but it works too. Check out the measurements of the Dunlavy speakers at Stereophile; you'll see what I mean. The difference shows up in the CSD plot, the polar plot, the impulse response, the step response and the frequency response. It makes a difference in both the frequency and the time domain. It's hard to see without an anechoic chamber though, or a short gate on your measurements.


----------



## ErinH

Patrick Bateman said:


> I'd argue that's by design. Similar to how I can't get a nice interior in a Toyota Prius. They save the good stuff for Lexus. IE, Kef uses a roundover in the more expensive speakers because it sounds better, but leaves it out on the less expensive speakers because they need to justify the added expense of moving up the line.


and I'd agree, at least in part. 

If I had the means (talent/money) to design a speaker like that, then I'd give it a go. But it's not as simple as plopping a driver in a sphere and calling it a day. There is legitimate engineering (or should be) that goes in to those kind of cabinets. As I said, termination and integration of the driver is more important than just a roundover (however large it may be) is itself.


Since this is my build thread and since my speakers have already been constructed, do you mind just pasting the link to the photos as opposed to posting the photos themselves? No offense, but I don't want to see a billion pictures of speakers in my HT thread. I'll be happy to follow a link, though.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Grab some wool and see if you can hear a difference 

Seriously, it's a quick and easy tweak.

If you can't hear the difference, no worries, you're out fifteen minutes of your time.

If you CAN hear a difference, then you just improved your speakers for virtually no cost.

I use a wool scarf that I bought for $10. Even a wool sweater would do the trick. Yes, it will look silly but I'm no good at cosmetics 

Use the Dunlavy pic as your guide.


----------



## ErinH

got my projector and screen in Saturday. Spent some time hanging out with some friends Saturday night and Al was kind enough to help me make some RCAs. He soldered while I prepped them. Made about 7 runs to finish out the Oppo-->Rane connections. 

Al and Chuck both got to hear the fronts play in their unfinished state. Just crossovers set. No levels really. Speakers weren't even in an optimal location. But... They work and they got to see how loud they'd go. 

I'm hoping to get the rack back in the closet and have all wire runs completed and connected in preparation for the PJ/screen going up this weekend. Hoping to have a movie playing by Saturday night. Wish me luck!


----------



## quietfly

Good luck!!!!


----------



## ErinH

Making strides. Everything is connected. Now I just have to get the rpm88 playing the center, sides and subs (haven't routed the input/outputs on that Rane yet). 

After that I'll be mounting the PJ and screen. Woot!


----------



## ErinH




----------



## quietfly

that rack look ominous.......


----------



## ErinH

yea. cell phone pictures don't do it justice. When I finally get things finished, I'll take some photos with the dslr.


----------



## quietfly

i meant that in a good way!!!


----------



## ErinH

Oh, I know. I was just saying that in person it looks really cool. I'm really excited about this project... nearing completion FINALLY. 

Once I get the PJ and screen mounted I'll continue to update/fix things. The list isn't major; just little things that need attention. I'll be painting the wall plates, adding acoustic panels here and there, adding a large throw rug up front to change up the color, power management, possibly add additional seating... those kind of things. But those are all things I can do at any time. They aren't required. 

I'll post up measurements of the speakers at some point and provide some RTA data along the way as well. Will do my best to document the continuation of the tuning process. I figure at some point I'll be adding additional subs. The RPM88 currently has (3) remaining channels after having individual control over the (2) subs. So that's enough to do one more sub by itself and front height channels (if I ever want to) or add 3 subs to the fold. I'm just going to have to see how things pan out once I am able to measure the room. 

I will say that I'm really happy with the Oppo as a pre-amp. The iPhone app works really well to control volume.


----------



## cubdenno

Erin,

How do you like the subs? How low will they play? I ask regarding home theater content. Some great movies with single digit extension.


----------



## ErinH

The f3 is about 21hz, so they don't plumb the depths of 8hz, but that's the nature of such a woofer in a small sealed enclosure. With room gain, the response is even better on the low end. that said, what I wanted was a solution that didn't take up a ton of space but had plenty of output to suffice until the point at which I (most likely) decide to go IB for the loooooow frequency content. When/if that happens, these subs will be used as satellite subs. but, for now, they have made me very content with what I've heard so far. they have some incredible throw and stay mechanically stout while doing so. I haven't had the chance to watch a movie yet, but they have handled all the music I've thrown at them. And you've heard my demo tracks... so you know that I like to rock out. 


Josh Ricci did a review on them for audioholics recently which I thought was very well done:
JL Audio E-Sub e110 and e112 Subwoofers Review | Audioholics


----------



## quietfly

bikinpunk said:


> T.... so they don't plumb the depths of 8hz, .....


8hz, HURTS......


----------



## req

really cool erin. watching movies on the pj at home is so much more gratifying than going to the theater 

i know your daugter is going to be pumped to watch frozen 50 times.


----------



## ErinH

Oh, I'm sure. Though, Layla has requested beauty and the beast as the first movie.


----------



## req

nice. do you have a popcorn kettle yet, or are you just going to make crappy bag popcorn?

haha. ill never go back to a regular screen i dont think. the PJ is so much better.


----------



## ErinH

I have a popcorn machine on my Amazon wish list.


----------



## Butt Hz

So how did the RCAs turn out?


----------



## class1

subscribed


----------



## ErinH

Butt Hz said:


> So how did the RCAs turn out?


they work. 


putting the projector up now and had to take a break. turns out, visual apex doesn't supply lag bolts with their universal kit. so I'm having to wait on my wife to get back from the store so I can run up to HD and pick some up.


----------



## ErinH

Got the PJ mounted. Didn't have time to assemble the screen but I couldn't resist throwing the image on the wall just to see what it would be like. Only made me want to stay up late and put the screen up but I gotta work tomorrow. Bummer, dude.


----------



## papasin

Everything looks great. Very well done and well thought out. Thanks for sharing...always appreciate the details and thoroughness that you and others go through to share.


----------



## req

lol erin. i did the same thing. i plopped mine on top of enough boxes to get it high enough off the ground and threw the image up there. 

very cool!


----------



## ErinH

papasin said:


> Everything looks great. Very well done and well thought out. Thanks for sharing...always appreciate the details and thoroughness that you and others go through to share.


Richard, I appreciate the kind words.


----------



## ErinH

req said:


> lol erin. i did the same thing. i plopped mine on top of enough boxes to get it high enough off the ground and threw the image up there.
> 
> very cool!


oh, for sure. if I hadn't had time to make the late HD run for the lag bolts to secure the PJ mount to the ceiling I'd have used boxes as well.


----------



## quietfly

UP is one of my favorite movies.......


----------



## cajunner

papasin said:


> Everything looks great. Very well done and well thought out. Thanks for sharing...always appreciate the details and thoroughness that you and others go through to share.


of all the posters on here that I click on, in anticipation of something interesting to read, I'd say bikinpunk is one of my personal favorites. He's got good writing skills, good photography, does things that he then measures, using good measurement tools and techniques. He graciously answers questions about his process, makes full disclosure a point, and suffers fools with grace. His impact with Klippel derived bandwidth is in itself, worth more than... well let's not even put a value to it.

all around total package, I'd say he's one of DIYMA's finest contributors.


----------



## ErinH

thanks, dude. kind words abound. I may not want to drive home in fear the universe will balance itself then.


----------



## quietfly

cajunner said:


> of all the posters on here that I click on, in anticipation of something interesting to read, I'd say bikinpunk is one of my personal favorites. He's got good writing skills, good photography, does things that he then measures, using good measurement tools and techniques. He graciously answers questions about his process, makes full disclosure a point, and suffers fools with grace. His impact with Klippel derived bandwidth is in itself, worth more than... well let's not even put a value to it.
> 
> all around total package, I'd say he's one of DIYMA's finest contributors.


I agree, Erin always has the "enthusiast's glow" to the things he does. Makes reading enjoyable and inspires lots of ideas...


----------



## bertholomey

Up! Rocks.......and Erin is pretty cool too ?


----------



## ErinH

Screen is up! (No pun intended)

Need to calibrate the PJ but we are really excited about the picture out of the box. 

Tomorrow night will be our first movie night. Woot woot!





















Had to throw in The Dark Knight to make sure the subs worked.


----------



## spyders03

Sweet! Looking good

Swyped while Swerving


----------



## ErinH

To black out the window in a pinch I used some black drop plastic. Looks ugly but it gets the job done. 











I went upstairs this morning to see how the room looked this morning and it was pitch black. Sweet! 


Had to take one last picture before heading off to work...


----------



## ErinH

I WILL, at some point, get some better photos with my good camera. Just wanted to wait until I was closer to finished before I bothered.


----------



## req

perfect man. i wish my room was black-ed out, but unfortunately i dont have a 'play room' above the garage. i love the two tone paint and the cieling lights. 

it is really coming together!


----------



## alpinem

Looks great man........


----------



## schmiddr2

That's awesome. Nice to have a dedicated room for sure.

I assume the projector is going on the ceiling? I built an MDF box and painted it for mine. Almost bought one of those inverted posts to hang it from, but I kind of like the custom look of the MDF box. Although the adjustable post could be useful.


----------



## ErinH

yep. the PJ is above the seated position, about a foot or so behind the viewer. you can actually juuuuust see the white of the PJ in the 2nd picture in the post above.


Once I get the chance, I'll go through and snap some photos of the room with the good camera.


----------



## quietfly

Damn it looks good!


----------



## gu9cci

What screen you use?


----------



## ErinH

First official movie night!





















And this Eagles Live blu ray is KILLER in surround!


----------



## cubdenno

Well Erin, when I come back down, you will have to give me an audition!

Looks fantastic!


----------



## ErinH

Indeed you will! I'll hopefully have it dialed in by then. I've just been too happy to have both sound and video that I haven't done any real analysis/calibration of either just yet. Lol.


----------



## ErinH

Beauty & the Beast pictures... finally! 

First off, we have 6 can lights total upstairs. Staggered evenly in the room. I removed the front two lights because they washed out the screen when on. The remaining four lights can be left on and dimmed about halfway while providing excellent picture and plenty of light to eat snacks with. And then I can dim them all the way down for 'intense' movie watching. 

lights off:







then with the lights on but dimmed....







removing the front two lights made a large difference in usability with lights on. really very happy with how the room turned out in this regard.


----------



## req

right on erin. that first beast image looks awesome. was it remastered? or did it always look that good?

very cool. you one-uppd me again hahaha


----------



## ErinH

no one told me there was a contest! I thought I only one-upped you in making the ranks of coolest person wearing cargo shorts with a pen protector. 




It's the Blu-ray disc.


----------



## quietfly

definitely looking good!!


----------



## ErinH

Movie night!!!!


----------



## garysummers

bikinpunk said:


> To black out the window in a pinch I used some black drop plastic. Looks ugly but it gets the job done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went upstairs this morning to see how the room looked this morning and it was pitch black. Sweet!
> 
> 
> Had to take one last picture before heading off to work...


Just curious Erin, do you plan to build a center channel utilizing the same drivers as Left and Right?


----------



## ErinH

That center channel is a kef and uses the same concentric as the left and right speakers. Different bass drivers, though, obviously. 

This is it:
http://kef.com/html/en/showroom/hi-fi_series/r_series/fact_sheet/centre/r200c/index.html

The short answer is if I tried to DIY a center it'd only be don't to match the woofers and I just don't see the effort being worth the payoff. Technically, if I wanted to match the woofers the center would be HUGE because it'd be 2 10" drivers. Talk about overkill. Lol.


----------



## garysummers

bikinpunk said:


> That center channel is a kef and uses the same concentric as the left and right speakers. Different bass drivers, though, obviously.
> 
> This is it:
> Hi-Fi Speakers - R Series - Fact Sheets - Centre Channel - R200c - KEF International
> 
> The short answer is if I tried to DIY a center it'd only be don't to match the woofers and I just don't see the effort being worth the payoff. Technically, if I wanted to match the woofers the center would be HUGE because it'd be 2 10" drivers. Talk about overkill. Lol.


If you took that Kef driver and mated it with two of those bass drivers, you would benefit from the extended low frequency response and overall power handling. I can tell you in most big action motion pictures mixed today the center channel receives most of the sonic energy! There is no such thing as overkill!


----------



## ErinH

I understand. Trust me. I understand. 

That said, that'd be a HUGE center channel. And honestly, more than anything, I'm just "over" building anything else right now.


----------



## rockin

bikinpunk said:


> As I mentioned previously, I've ditched the Kef R500 towers and am going DIY. I tried multiple configurations with multiple 8" drivers in a passive setup but that evolved as I kept modeling and building test setups. The short story is I have decided make this DIY build a fully active 3-way setup consisting of the following gear:
> 
> Kef R-Series concentric mid/tweeter
> Scanspeak 26w/8867T 10” woofer
> Rane RPM26z for processing (crossover and EQ)
> Crown DriveCore XLS1500 for tweeters (525w x2 @ 4ohm)
> Crown XLS2000 for mids (650w x2 @ 4ohm)
> Crown XLS2500 for woofers (775w x2 @ 4ohm)





How many separate circuits are you using for the amps? I come up with a current draw of over 32 amps to use all that power. Would blow any of my 20 amp breakers. Did you do something during construction specifically for juice? If not have you had any problems tripping your breaker?


----------



## ErinH

2 20 amp breakers and 2 15 amp breakers in the closet. Then 2 circuits in the room so each sub has it's own outlet.


----------



## rockin

bikinpunk said:


> 2 20 amp breakers and 2 15 amp breakers in the closet. Then 2 circuits in the room so each sub has it's own outlet.


I knew I liked you. LOL. I didn't even consider the sub amps. Insane. I'm sure your utility loves your setup too! I'm getting ready to build a dedicated home stereo, so I'm watching this thread. Looks nice.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

I went to T.H.E. Show yesterday. For the second time in a row, I think that KEF may have had the best sound at the show.

It's astonishing how good their speakers sound, particularly when they're so inexpensive.

Those coaxes that Erin is using are some serious drivers, I'll bet this sounds great. (And I *really* wonder how they sound in a car?)



For me, the biggest surprise of the show was that the $5000 Kef speaker (6moons audio reviews: KEF R900) may have sounded better than the $30,000 TAD. (TAD Evolution One loudspeaker | Stereophile.com) Both Kef and TAD do a lot of things the same way, and the chief engineer at TAD and Pioneer used to work at Kef. (Peter Jones.)

To my ears, the TAD was a little bit more pinpoint in the imaging department. But I have a personal preference for a BIG stage over a pinpoint stage. And the KEF threw up a huge stage that extended well past the boundaries of the loudspeaker.


----------



## BigRed

I was there as well. The kefs were my favorite too


----------



## ErinH

Patrick Bateman said:


> Those coaxes that Erin is using are some serious drivers, I'll bet this sounds great. (And I *really* wonder how they sound in a car?)


Well, if you ever find yourself in North Alabama near Decatur or Huntsville, you're more than welcome to demo either system. Hopefully by then I'll have the home setup dialed in. The car is always a work in progress as I go through my stages of love/hate with car audio. 

I can even provide you with a couple different settings in the car: with/without EQ. It's pretty crazy just how good it is with no EQ on them. And it takes very little to wrangle in the few stray frequencies that wander. 

I don't know if you've seen my build log, but I have some more details on the car system there:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...edan-v-my-full-disclosure-build-tune-log.html




Patrick Bateman said:


> the KEF threw up a huge stage that extended well past the boundaries of the loudspeaker.


that's what I've been saying about them since I first heard the lower-level Q100 bookshelves. The stage these concentrics throw is just unreal.


----------



## Blazemore

Did you come up with a way to remotely turn on the rack or just doing it manually?


----------



## ErinH

Nope. tbh it hasn't really even crossed my mind. All manual for now.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

I use an APC H15 power conditioner to turn my old Rotels on. Basically when my Anthem turns on, the H15 then switches on the outlet for the Rotels and then vice versa when turning off. This is what I use in my bedroom, cheaper alternative: 

Amazon.com: Smart Strip LCG3 Energy Saving Surge Protector with Autoswitching Technology, 10-Outlet: Home Improvement


----------



## ErinH

Painted! Two coats of satin black. Made shortcuts by not hitting the cabs with a flush trim bit but my attitude is screw it. Cosmetically, they're good enough. They're gonna be in a dark room. The only reason they're being painted is to help them not stand out like a sore thumb. 

Anyway... Looks good. Not glossy but not flat. 








Now sound wise these are every bit as awesome as I'd hope they'd be. Sure, I'm biased, but I also spent a good 3 months testing and designing before I even cut the first piece of wood for these so it's not like I threw something together and am fooling myself in to thinking it sounds good. 

What I've yet to do is REALLY sit down with the system and tweak phase via time alignment between the sub/midbass/midrange. Right now the crossover points are set but could use some improvement and the subs really need to be more integrated and EQ'd. There's a couple hot spots that need EQ below 400hz. Overall, though, it's impressive. And gets stupid loud. 

Once I get all that completed I'll post up the measurements. And I AM NOT adding absorption. I threw a couple panels on the wall and it caused the width via ambiance to suffer. Which makes perfect sense. All the more reason why a good set of speakers with attention paid to polar patterns need little DSP and room treatments in a real room.


----------



## TheDavel

Looking great! Where are the loaded pics? Yes, I've seen the woofers installed in previous pics...


----------



## ErinH

tonight. I let the paint dry overnight. I'll post a couple pictures when I get them back in place.


----------



## cajunner

so really, what you have now is like a Best Buy set of mid-grade floor standers using a cheap passive crossover that has only been placed with elements that are primary to crossover and not to the voicing of the whole...

when you do "sit down" and fix everything to absolute phase using all your bag of tricks (of which you have many) I'd like you to be able to show the difference for all of us who don't have the quality measurement bits, and the software bit depth, or the DSP fix-its, to where you were with what the average Joe might accomplish, to where you'll end up, creasing your forehead with lines over MIT interconnects and using Sonex on the back wall...

what I mean, is can you take a mic measurement/recording at the stage it is in now, so that you can have an apples to bananas comparison once you've tuned it all in?

Everything you intend on fixing from here on out, is to me, scientific in nature and not really subjective except for your rejection of room treatment in the outset.

I think if we could quantify the amount of improvement with each optimization, it would go a long way towards regular people understanding why they might want to get into the active at home game.


----------



## ErinH

Dude. Of course I'll post before and after.


----------



## cajunner

ErinH said:


> Dude. Of course I'll post before and after.


alright alright alright...


----------



## Babs

ErinH said:


> Once I get all that completed I'll post up the measurements. And I AM NOT adding absorption. I threw a couple panels on the wall and it caused the width via ambiance to suffer. Which makes perfect sense. All the more reason why a good set of speakers with attention paid to polar patterns need little DSP and room treatments in a real room.


A lively or a dead room is certainly a subjective decision as to what you like personally. I used to be a huge fan of nice speaks on a wood floor to hear all that decay, making the room itself kind of part of the music, as an instrument itself, making the stage "venue" seem larger. In home audio/theater, it's a balance of speaks, tune and room. 

The 'purists' I guess like the "straight wire with amplitude" philosophy, and consider DSP a form of distortion, then try to make the room fit the system, typically combating reflections and modes. Whereas you've embraced DSP as a necessity, so you've tuned in room response in with the system. And I can imagine it's killer.


----------



## ErinH

My "no treatments" revolves mainly around the side wall treatments. That lateral reflection helps to psychoacoustically increase width. When you put a panel on there to absorb it, you kill that additional width source vis-à-vis reflection. 

Same thing with your car. That's why some people have gone through the trouble to actually aim tweeters away from the listener; toward the side windows. I don't do this because it creates other problems and I don't feel the benefit is worth the gain but it's still an affect people experiment with. 


Now, if I were to add treatments it would be done for bass (but I won't because I'd rather just P-EQ) or vertical reflections (but I most likely won't because I'm too lazy). I've got the panel materials ... to make 4- 2" thick panels with a 2" air gap behind each... don't foresee me really using them now, though.


----------



## Babs

If you asked Ethan Winer of realtraps, he'd likely advise if you weren't doing anything more than those panels, place them diagonally in the corners. Literally just propping them up, it'd be interesting in your low-freq response before/after.


----------



## ErinH

Little 2" panels aren't going to do anything for subs, though. That's why people use densely packed material in an entire wedge of the corner.


----------



## ErinH




----------



## ErinH

Before getting lugged upstairs and after.


----------



## TheDavel

Those turned out great Erin!


----------



## ErinH

Thanks! 

I took a couple pics with the DSLR since cell phone pics are junky.


----------



## Se7en

Looks great man!

I have to admit that I've been seriously thinking about getting some LS50s to play with in my room.


----------



## ErinH

In the off chance that someone sees this and wants to know about using the Oppo BDP-103 as a dedicated pre-amp, here's an update to what my results have been...



I e-mailed Oppo some months back asking about potential noise issues when using the 103 as the sole pre-amp. I found some discussions on the matter that concerned me, and I wanted to see what they had to say. This is the reply back:



> Erin,
> 
> If you will be using the player as the pre-amplifier, then you will want to use the BDP-105. The BDP-103 has 24-bit DACs and has a low signal to noise floor, so it will likely produce audio truncations if you use the player's built-in volume controls and a hum will always be present as the amplifier will always be amplifying the noise floor.
> 
> If you are running through a pre-amplifier, or another device which will be doing the volume controls, then the BDP-103 will work in your configuration.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Customer Service
> OPPO Digital, Inc.
> 2629B Terminal Blvd.
> Mountain View, CA 94043
> [email protected]



So, Oppo basically told me, "yes, you should expect noise". They didn't specifically say 'hiss' and they focused on the 'hum' (two things which are NOT the same). Understanding the warning, I figured I'd give it a shot anyway. 


I've had the setup playing for about 3-4 months now. After having some time to really live with the system, I've realized that, indeed, the noise floor of the Oppo is a problem *if you expect to use it as a permanent pre-amp solution*. Keep in mind I have (2) Rane DSP's that drive the inputs of my Crowns and even with the ridiculous output voltage capability of the Ranes and the superb A/D/A conversion within, it simply cannot make up for the Oppo's faults when used as the sole pre-amp. 

Oppo stated I'd need to use a dedicated pre-amp; so I'm not bashing the company or product at all!

What I am saying is if you're going to be hardheaded like I was, don't expect much different than the results I had. I got it to work as a pre-amp, sure, but I'm fighting the noise vs volume tradeoff; and upping the output voltage via the software only induces clipping (audible clipping, I might add). I've decided I'm going to have to plunk down the cash for a dedicated pre/pro, unfortunately. I'm hoping something like the Emo UMC-200 will suffice. I'll have to sit down and do some research.

This is just some real-world use from my experience. Hopefully it helps someone who was in the quandary I was a few months back.








And, FWIW, I've been considering going back to standard 2-channel sound and using the leftover cash to buy one of these:
Mcintosh MC206 Six Channel Amplifier - Excellent Condition | Multi ch | Independence, Kentucky 41051 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

Or if I make the towers passive, this:
McIntosh MC302 Amplifier, MC302 Classic McIntosh Amplifier, Product Manual


Or not...


----------



## 2010hummerguy

See if you can find an Anthem MRX-300. Seriously the best pre/pro section I've found under $1k.

Edit:

This one is a good deal with the exchange rate if you can get shipping to work:
Anthem MRX-500 new For Sale - US Audio Mart

Another one here:
Anthem MRX 500 | Processors | Marshallton, Delaware 19808 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community

I paid $550 for my 500 earlier this year but it was a crazy deal. I saw a 300 recently for around that on Avsforum but they go quick. Incredible room correction for the price too. And it does not touch upper frequencies. The 300 is just lower power and no internet radio, same dac/pre opamps.


----------



## Blazemore

Interesting, this is actually where I'm held up on finishing my HT. With the crown amps I've been looking for a pre/pro with xlr outputs without breaking the bank. 
Marantz 
Onkyo 
Yamaha 
Are the ones I've been looking at comparing new vs used, prices, specs, etc.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Anthem MRX300 mates perfectly with my rane erin.

Find a used one and call it a day ;--)


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Blazemore said:


> Interesting, this is actually where I'm held up on finishing my HT. With the crown amps I've been looking for a pre/pro with xlr outputs without breaking the bank.
> Marantz
> Onkyo
> Yamaha
> Are the ones I've been looking at comparing new vs used, prices, specs, etc.


Budget? Anthem AVM-50, there was a beautiful silver one on Audiogon for $999 out of TX but looks like that sold.

FWIW I wouldn't touch an Emotiva with a 40ft. pole. Their promised expansion support for the UMC series has been non existent and their episode of the Keystone Cops that is the XMC-1 kept me away. Glad I sold my discount card, I cannot believe they shipped w/o room correction software.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

Nice theater room. Had a question. Have you thought about maybe putting a dark colored rug on the floor. You have pretty light carpet and the spill off the screen did seem to light the floor up a bit from your pics. I know that bugs me in my room. Had a rug in there for quite a while till the dog....

Josh


----------



## ErinH

JoshHefnerX said:


> Nice theater room. Had a question. Have you thought about maybe putting a dark colored rug on the floor. You have pretty light carpet and the spill off the screen did seem to light the floor up a bit from your pics. I know that bugs me in my room. Had a rug in there for quite a while till the dog....
> 
> Josh


I have thought about it, but it honestly doesn't bother me in the least bit. I was shooting for a thick rug for the acoustics aspect but finding a large rug to fit the area I want isn't cheap... and if it is, it's a crappy one. I contacted the carpet place I purchased our carpet from and they're going to let me know if they have scrap in a dark color that fits my needs and if so, I can have it.


----------



## Babs

Anthem is great gear. Affiliated with Paradigm I believe.


----------



## Blazemore

Architect7 said:


> Budget? Anthem AVM-50, there was a beautiful silver one on Audiogon for $999 out of TX but looks like that sold.


I was thinking even more budget friendly $500-800 range, if that's even a possibility.


----------



## ErinH

There really just aren't many great options for a pre/pro with XLR out in that price range. So far the best I've come up with is the UMC-200 and it doesn't have XLR. Though, the RCA pre-outs were measured by soundandvision to have 4vRMS. I don't really want to buy a receiver with pre-outs; it's a waste of money for me. 

I'm kind of looking... not actively... but in my down time I'll pull up audiogon or usaudiomart.com to see what's available. Still, I'm considering going full bore 2-channel and getting some Mc gear.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

ErinH said:


> There really just aren't many great options for a pre/pro with XLR out in that price range. So far the best I've come up with is the UMC-200 and it doesn't have XLR. Though, the RCA pre-outs were measured by soundandvision to have 4vRMS. I don't really want to buy a receiver with pre-outs; it's a waste of money for me.
> 
> I'm kind of looking... not actively... but in my down time I'll pull up audiogon or usaudiomart.com to see what's available. Still, I'm considering going full bore 2-channel and getting some Mc gear.


Let me know if you plan to buy new, I have a friend who is a new Mc dealer that I can direct you to.

Anthem RCA preouts are 4.9v, FYI. Very good headroom.


----------



## ErinH

Architect7 said:


> Let me know if you plan to buy new, I have a friend who is a new Mc dealer that I can direct you to.
> 
> Anthem RCA preouts are 4.9v, FYI. Very good headroom.


Doubt I can afford new. Even used eBay prices are a tough sell. But, I will keep it in mind. I'll shoot you a PM just to see what's possible. 


Is that peak to peak voltage or RMS?


----------



## 2010hummerguy

ErinH said:


> Doubt I can afford new. Even used eBay prices are a tough sell. But, I will keep it in mind. I'll shoot you a PM just to see what's possible.
> 
> 
> Is that peak to peak voltage or RMS?


I also have a friend selling an MC300. Used but mint. He's not really sure what it's worth, we've seen a few in the $2k's but would not ship so who knows if that is the correct value.

For the Anthem, 2v RMS, 4.9v peak, my bad. For some reason I thought they were 4.9v RMS...


----------



## ErinH

Just picked this up on eBay for a good price. 
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/onkyo-professional-pr-sc885-preampprocessor

Figure I'll give it a go and see if it resolves my issues. XLR pre-outs, and has a stereo mode for two channel playback where it uses the subs in addition to the fronts rather than just fronts like pure direct mode. I'll run my oppo HDMI 1 to the PJ and HDMI 2 to the pre/pro for audio. 

Here's to a night of making more XLR cables. At least with the Rane's I only have to have one end wired. 



I told my wife if this doesn't do what I want... 2 channel it is and I'm buying the Mc amp.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Cool, I've heard good things about that Onkyo.

Let me know if you want my friend's contact info, the MC300 he has is MINT...though he prefers the sound of his Hypex UcD700's so the Mac sits in his office unused.


----------



## ErinH

I actually took your advice and sent him an email through his site earlier today.


----------



## Blazemore

In your research were there other Pre/Pro units you were considering other than Emo? I had the 885 on my list but I'm looking at a Marantz AV7005 now.


----------



## ErinH

Marantz was on my list as well but it was just too expensive. I don't need all the features it comes with.


----------



## Complacent_One

You should like that Onkyo. My father is running one with an EMOTIVA 5 Channel and his Paradigm Reference 5.1 setup. He loves it. My buddy in New Mexico has a pair of them and loves them also...great setup!!


----------



## 2010hummerguy

ErinH said:


> I actually took your advice and sent him an email through his site earlier today.


Nice, hear back from him yet? I know he's working on a mega home right now so his time in the office/showroom is pretty scarce at the moment. Hopefully it isn't one of those situations where he can't ship to you due to dealer limitations, etc.


----------



## ErinH

Nope. Not yet. I don't know how Mc deals with dealers, but I'm looking for used stuff anyway. New is way out of my budget. LOL.


----------



## gfbl

denon 4520's were on sale bnib at $999 a few days ago


----------



## gfbl

oh ive heard of people getting best buy to honour that price by saying their bro/sis/aunt/uncle got it for the $999 yesterday so...


----------



## ErinH

I saw talk of that on audioholics. That's a sweet piece, but no XLR output...

I already picked up the Onkyo mentioned above, too.


----------



## rockin

My experience with my Integra has been phenomenal. Probably the best experience I've ever had from dropping some coin. The thing has literally simplified and streamlined my setup. I was planning on running 2 sets of speakers (one for stereo, one for H.T.) and assigning each its own zone. That is unnecessary because this thing features a stereo listening mode and a surround listening mode. I do it all off one zone, use the stereo speakers for L/R in surround mode and it automatically enables the center channel! Bad Ass. It even does this automatically when you switch to a source it thinks should be in 7.1 (Like all 3 video sources) This is also able to be overridden from the remote.
Sorry to gush, but if your Onkyo is anything like this (and why wouldn't it be, right) I think you're going to be thrilled.


----------



## ErinH

On business travel at White Sands this week. Had a couple hours to kill so I drive up to Albuquerque to check out a high end A/V shop called Listen Up. I was greeted by a polite salesman who spent about 30 minutes talking with me about the hobby. Dude was super nice and you could tell he loved what he does. Said he'd been with the company for 20-something years. 

He let me demo this $26k set of B&W 800D speakers powered by a Mcintosh MC302 playing digital music through a Mc C48 preamp and MEN220 room correction piece. It was pretty darn killer. All in the MSRP is about $50k for the setup. It was pretty dang awesome... Dynamic as all get out. Awesome tonality. The one thing that stood out the most was just how real it sounded. I've heard a lot of great systems and this sucker impressed. Very much the experience I had at the HiFi Buys in Nashville a couple years back. 

I went with an agenda to scope out a 2-channel and the MC302 is the one I've been eyeing. Seeing that thing in person is so much different than seeing it on the internet. That amp is a BEAST. No wonder people selling them don't want to ship 'em. I think I'm in love...

































Saw this on the way back to the hotel:













Today is probably the closest ill ever be to "rich". Lol.


----------



## schmiddr2

Sounds like $50K will do what you want. Save your pennies. 

What did you hear at Hi-Fi Buys? When? It's been a long time and I plan to get over there sometime this year.


----------



## Babs

My that looks like a lot of acoustic absorption also. You were hearing more speaker and less wall I suspect, as B&W intended. Their imaging and tonality is in my opinion about as good as it gets.

But yeah that'd be at least my speaker choice bar none if I pulled the winning lottery ticket. The 800D is serious business. Check out how much those rascals weigh a piece. Any 800 series speakers will deliver sonic happiness at some scale. Even the little stand-mounted 2-way 805's. I heard the 800's run by a modest Lexicon pre-pro and amp and haven't been the same since. Permanent B&W fanboy. Can only imagine how all that control from the Macs made them sing. 

A more modest system a friend has is a smaller theater room with 5 identical older CDM-7NT's and two B&W subs. BAT amp. Crazy nice affordable system.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

I'd love to see what kind of correction was being provided by the MEN220. Especially EQ given how neutral that room probably sounds.

Beautiful system!

And nice sighting with the Aston racing team. Funny story, I was in the UK in 2005 and snuck into the factory parking lot with a good friend...we were promptly removed but on our way out saw what is now the Vantage V8 convertible. I still have a photo and should have sold it to the common magazines...if only I had known what I had. At the time I thought, "Huh, what a funny looking DB9".


----------



## ErinH

schmiddr2 said:


> Sounds like $50K will do what you want. Save your pennies.
> 
> What did you hear at Hi-Fi Buys? When? It's been a long time and I plan to get over there sometime this year.


When I went to Hi-Fi Buys it was around April of last year. I wrote a bit about my experience there here:


Really cool place. You should go check it out!
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1854097-post203.html



Babs said:


> My that looks like a lot of acoustic absorption also. You were hearing more speaker and less wall I suspect, as B&W intended. Their imaging and tonality is in my opinion about as good as it gets.
> 
> But yeah that'd be at least my speaker choice bar none if I pulled the winning lottery ticket. The 800D is serious business. Check out how much those rascals weigh a piece. Any 800 series speakers will deliver sonic happiness at some scale. Even the little stand-mounted 2-way 805's. I heard the 800's run by a modest Lexicon pre-pro and amp and haven't been the same since. Permanent B&W fanboy. Can only imagine how all that control from the Macs made them sing.


Personally, I felt the focus could have been better. Everything was 'BIG'. Not in a bad way... but I felt the focus could have been tighter. 


The thing about the 800/802 is the response is anything but great. There are crossover issues it appears from looking at published data. There's a hole in response where the 12's are beaming and the 6 picks up and the same for the 6/tweeter. I would think they'd figure out a way to work this out and it's not terrible... but I think you're simply seeing the effect of a speaker beaming and the next speaker in line not being able to cross low enough to mitigate it. 

Link:
B&W 800 Diamond loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com


Also, note what the commenter at the bottom of the page did with the overlay of the 800/802. Very interesting results...


----------



## ErinH

Finally ordered my HT room seats:
Seatcraft Eros Theater Seating - Theater Seats | 4seating

$790 shipped (on sale) for a row of three. Not bad at all. They're not perfect... not pure leather and aren't the most fancy thing around. But they'll do the job and leave me enough money over to get some other cool stuff. 


Depending on how I like these, we'll likely order a second row and I'll build a riser for them. I'll update with my impressions once I get them in, just in case others are curious and shopping for some HT seating on the cheap as well.


----------



## TheDavel

Congrats Erin! Great deal!


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Wow yeah, great deal on those seats. Lots of options too, nice!


----------



## ErinH

I spent a good bit of time researching the different websites. That one had some very bad reviews years back but they've come under new management since then and so far the reviews since have been really positive. The seats aren't as nice as I'd like to get but I also don't want to spend a lot on them, either. The reviews seem to be really good for this particular seat based on what I've found anyway, so while it's not high-class, it does seem to have a really good value. $790 for a set of three... hard to beat that. 

I purchased the Onkyo pre-amp but TBH, I am not sure I want to keep it. Among other things, I just don't really have a good sense of 'pride of ownership' with this piece. It's not a bad product... I just feel like it wasn't exactly the product I needed, as much as I thought it was. I wouldn't call it a rushed buy, because I NEVER rush in to purchases. My MO is to research something to death to where I don't want to buy it. So, I bought the Onkyo because I thought it'd fit my needs but I'm really just not sure it's what I want.

I'm looking at other things for this HT. One of them being the fact it may not be quite an "HT" anymore. I have been toying with turning it in to a pure stereo room simply because the stereo gear I want is too expensive for me to keep the 'HT' aspect. _Possibly_. Ideally, if I had the funds, dropping the theater aspect of the room wouldn't be an option but I've got a limited amount of money I can throw at this stuff so...

I've also been looking in to budget friendly turntables and someone on another site pointed me toward the uTurn product. I think that's the way I'm going to go once I get my bearing on some of my other ideas. Probably gonna lay low on the HT project a bit until November and then tackle the other options then, if I decide to go the stereo route.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Erin want me to bring you my anthem mrx300 to finals and you can mess with it. Ship to syracuse when done


----------



## ErinH

Nah. I appreciate it though.


----------



## TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL

Curious what made you decide to look into turntables. I got mine primarily because a lot of music I like ends up brickwalled on cd/iTunes and even hdtracks releases, but not on vinyl. That said, I've found that many entry level cartridges just can't play certain records to an acceptable level. For instance, my table came with an ortofon super om10, and it won't play Michael Jackson's Thriller without audible distortion on the s's. That one is still playable with it, but Avenged Sevenfold's City of Evil is flat out unplayable with it. The s's and t's just turn into static. I had to upgrade to a microline stylus to play it.


----------



## ErinH

I've got a lot of old records from the 80's (my childhood) that my folks hung on to for me. And over the years, I've bought a couple here and there with the intention of one day having a decent system to play them on.


----------



## ErinH

There is a *SERIOUS* overhaul going on with my HT starting early next year. That means the majority of what I have in my HT setup now is going to be posted for sale. 

If there's anything that particularly interests you, lmk. I won't be starting an official FS thread just yet because I would still like to have the HT operational during the Holidays. But, if there's something you are absolutely interested in and are willing to pay in advance then I may be able to work with you.

To recap, the list of everything I have is:

(2) Kef R-series concentric drivers
(2) Scan Speak 26w Revelator Aluminum Cone woofers
(1) Kef R200c center channel speaker
(1) Pair of Kef Q100 Bookshelf Speakers
(3) Crown XLS1500 Amplifiers
(1) Crown XLS2000 Amplifier
(1) Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre/Pro
(1) Rane RPM26Z DSP (2 channel in, 6 channel out)
(1) Rane RPM88 DSP (8 in, 8 out)
(2) JL Audio E112 Subwoofers (looking for local pick up on these)


Some of the above I may be keeping, but I might be persuaded otherwise. I've purposely not listed prices because I'm still not 100% sure on some of it. I definitely won't be pulling anything before Christmas. However, if you are interested in something and want to discuss it, email me ([email protected]). I am usually behind on answering PMs so email is best.


----------



## ErinH




----------



## Kevin K

Oh my, you worked hard to get where your at, can't believe it's gonna change.....it doesn't have anything to do with that famous blue led hue does it.....


----------



## ErinH

nope. I know you guys probably don't care to hear the long story with explanation on why... but the room is going to get an overhaul so it has the look and sound of a theater. So, I can actually give it a home theater vibe, rather than just another room with a large screen and a bunch of speakers.

and by no means will the sound suffer.


----------



## Kevin K

GLWS and the best to you on the new process, look forward to it when it's complete.


----------



## ErinH

I may have to have a GTG to show it off once it's complete.


----------



## claydo

KPT-535-T Theater Speaker | High Quality Cinema Audio by Klipsch®


Just sayin.......


----------



## Kevin K

ErinH said:


> I may have to have a GTG to show it off once it's complete.


sounds good....pun intended


----------



## ErinH

if budget would allow, you wouldn't be too far off. 


http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/cinema-market/screenarray-systems-2-way/3722_3722n

I'm just sayin'.


----------



## claydo

Nothing quite like a pin yer ears back, full on horn loaded cinema system!


----------



## ErinH

yea. it would definitely be cool. but WAAAAAY too expensive. 

i've been looking at all sorts of options, man. from a new kef design to synergy horns. there's a couple front runners right now. but I'm still researching. too many options. like going to a restaurant when you're STARVING. everything looks like it would work. lol. 

luckily my modest budget is gonna keep me from getting the really extreme stuff.


----------



## claydo

Word.....it's nice to dream, then reality kinda snatches ya back. Regardless, I'll be watching to see what ya do with the room.


----------



## schmiddr2

Those point source drivers look interesting. Midbass with compression driver mounted to the back; I don't understand how it would work, but if it did I don't see why it wouldn't be awesome.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Time to get on the Acoustic Elegance waiting list and order them with some CDs/SEOS waveguides.


----------



## ErinH

Maybe. SI is on the list as well. 

I don't think there's anything that I haven't considered at this point. Lol.


----------



## thehatedguy

I know you talked about some 12s...But why not supersize and get some 15" coaxes? Other than price...

But we could work on some Synergy horns...there are a few designs floating around out there if you had the space. But if you went that way, I would keep the Ranes to make working out the XO a lot easier...the crossover is a lot of the secret sauce with the Synergy stuff.


----------



## claydo

Just out of curiosity I thought maybe jbl synthesis......thought maybe used for a bargain......searched craigslist in Alabama for jbl speakers......dude...you should do the same....aren't you near Decatur?

It seems there was a decommissioned carmike there.....dude has the whole audio system......I know, I know, ********......but he has pics.


----------



## thehatedguy

We could probably clone that pretty easily. Actually really easily for a lot less money than sticker price- just a 1" compression driver over a couple ported 15s. I don't know if we could get it within your budget using a pair of 15s on the bottom...but pretty close I bet.



ErinH said:


> if budget would allow, you wouldn't be too far off.
> 
> 
> 3722_3722N
> 
> I'm just sayin'.


----------



## ErinH

claydo said:


> Just out of curiosity I thought maybe jbl synthesis......thought maybe used for a bargain......searched craigslist in Alabama for jbl speakers......dude...you should do the same....aren't you near Decatur?
> 
> It seems there was a decommissioned carmike there.....dude has the whole audio system......I know, I know, ********......but he has pics.


HUSH!


----------



## claydo

Lmao.....do eeet!!


----------



## ErinH

thehatedguy said:


> We could probably clone that pretty easily. Actually really easily for a lot less money than sticker price- just a 1" compression driver over a couple ported 15s. I don't know if we could get it within your budget using a pair of 15s on the bottom...but pretty close I bet.


yea. I think so, too. 

The coaxial design was more or less picked because it's a single point source and it's stupid easy to put in a square box. I was going to just order a flat pack from diysg if I went this route. 

Clay kind of gave away one of my secrets, but since it's out, I've been talking to the guy about some of his "other" inventory. the 2380 horns he has got my attention. my initial thought was to try to pair those up with a good B&C 12". But the horns alone nearly toppled my budget. I'm meeting up with him Monday to look through his inventory. I'm running man-to-man coverage this weekend since my wife is working this weekend so I didn't see me being able to take Layla to go shopping with me. lol. I'm hoping he has more LF drivers.


----------



## ErinH

btw, the 2380's response:
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2380a.pdf

look at how killer the directivity is above 500hz.


----------



## claydo

Oh snap!!......sorry dude....I was trying to help, not out yer plans!......lmao, oh that **** is classic!

You should have seen my reaction to finding the post.....Local to ya and everything.....I was like dammit....I've gotta tell him!


----------



## ErinH

it's all good, man. just giving you a hard time.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

ErinH said:


> btw, the 2380's response:
> http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2380a.pdf
> 
> look at how killer the directivity is above 500hz.


That is amazing. How much $$$ does a 2380 run?


----------



## Babs

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speakers/Home_Audio/800_Series_Diamond

Just sayin ?


----------



## mikey7182

ErinH said:


> yea. I think so, too.
> 
> The coaxial design was more or less picked because it's a single point source and it's stupid easy to put in a square box. I was going to just order a flat pack from diysg if I went this route.
> 
> Clay kind of gave away one of my secrets, but since it's out, I've been talking to the guy about some of his "other" inventory. the 2380 horns he has got my attention. my initial thought was to try to pair those up with a good B&C 12". But the horns alone nearly toppled my budget. I'm meeting up with him Monday to look through his inventory. I'm running man-to-man coverage this weekend since my wife is working this weekend so I didn't see me being able to take Layla to go shopping with me. lol. I'm hoping he has more LF drivers.


Horns!!!!  Nice man! 

The B&C 12NW78 is a solid driver, but if that guy has a bunch of JBL cabs, see if you can score some 2204/2206H, or the neo versions that come in a lot of newer cabs- the 2251J. A 2 way front end with 2206 and 2380s with a few SI HT18s for LFE would be ridiculous. Makes me want to figure out a way to IB my basement!


----------



## 2010hummerguy

AE TD/SEOS build

!!!!!!!

Too bad he won't ship


----------



## ErinH

Looks sweet! But still a bit out of my budget. Good thing he's not closer, though.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

ErinH said:


> btw, the 2380's response:
> http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2380a.pdf
> 
> look at how killer the directivity is above 500hz.











This is the old JBL 2380 diffraction horn









This is a JBL 'progressive transition' waveguide.

JBL ditched the diffraction horns a while back. The diffraction slot of the old horns is efficient, but it sounds like ass. (The diffraction slot is that wide slot at the throat, where the wavefront rapidly expands from zero degrees to 100 degrees in the span of a single inch.)









Here's the polars on the waveguide. If someone can find something with better polars, I'd love to see it. Even my beloved Gedlee Summas have a hard time matching this performance.

Pyle sells a clone of the JBL waveguide for twelve bucks 









Here's the SEOS waveguide that Architect7 posted. IMHO, one sign that indicates when a design is good is when everybody is doing things the same way. And that's what we see with the JBL PT waveguides. Even the competition basically looks identical; there's virtually no difference between the PT waveguide, the QSC waveguide and the SEOS waveguide.


----------



## ErinH

I've been looking at a few different SEOS builds over the past year as well. The Sentinel 15 and Fusion 12 look cool. I'm also liking the 1099 design. Basically, they all look good for my use. I don't necessarily think any are drastically better/worse than another. 

They are all right at the threshold of my budget at about $400/speaker.


edit: I did also PM ErichH @ diysg asking if he makes baffles for the SEOS that fit his flatpacks. The reason why is I was thinking of simply going 2-way active with the existing electronics I have and picking my own drivers. I could _almost_ justify the added expense. I like the AE drivers and I've dealt with John for years now so would be happy to give him my money. But, with the lead time, I don't think I could make it work out.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Watch out for those cheap B&C clones.

Celestion sells a $45 compression driver that measures and sounds better than the Denovo and Parts Express compression drivers.

(Celestion and Kef are the same company BTW, and the quality of Celestion is very good.)


----------



## ErinH

good info. good to know. thanks!


----------



## ErinH

Looks like this theater room just real...

I met up with the guy on CL yesterday. We settled on a price and I met up with him a few hours ago. Since I drive a little civic and I didn't need the cabinets, I just pulled the drivers from their respective enclosures. I ultimately walked away with the following:

(1) 2242H 18" Woofer
(4) 2035 HPL-1 woofers
(4) 2446j/2380a cd/horn combos. 
(4) 8330A surrounds.
(1) QSC 1644 - 4 channel amp (4x400w @ 4 ohm)


For a great price. I will not keep the 18". I don't have a use for it. 
Same for the amp. I've already got a bunch of Crowns. It's a solid amp, though. Would make a great amp for an active 2-way system.

The gear in general is practically new. The theater purchased all new gear 6 months before closing down and moving to the new, larger theater across town. Some of it was literally never used. I just need to clean the cobwebs off some of it, literally.

Here's a few pics of the haul:














Horns:



15's:


----------



## claydo

Congrats erin! I'm jealous.....gonna be a hell of a theater.....I mean that gear in a small room.....son of a ***** that's gonna rock!!!!


----------



## ErinH

and I haven't even gotten to the subwoofers yet.....


----------



## thehatedguy

Just to make the worm hole go even deeper, you can get Beryllium diaphrams for those compression drivers to extend the treble out further past the break up.


----------



## ErinH

Never having taken one apart, how would I know if this had that upgrade? Or is it highly unlikely? IOW, can you get that as an option from JBL or is it a diy upgrade only? I may disassemble one and check.


----------



## thehatedguy

They'll have titanium from JBL. Truextent makes the Be diaphrams...retail about $600 each. Those drivers are 2" exit, so they'll give up some of the upper upper stuff for really powerful midrange. Large format compression drivers have a really different presentation of the music compared to even small format 1" drivers, which is different than direct radiators.

You might as well start making midbass horns to save you some trouble upgrading later 

Those compression drivers are HUGE aren't they?


----------



## ErinH

Yea man. They're ridiculously oversized. I like it.


----------



## ErinH

Midbass horns, eh? Hmmmmm.


----------



## JoshHefnerX

Seriously cool!

Josh


----------



## Blazemore

Every time I visit this thread the path changes...Movie theater in a box setting. Hope you have nice neighbors.


----------



## ErinH

My neighbors are very cool. And neither of them can complain since one on one side has a GTG every Saturday during football season where they have a bonfire in their backyard and the other neighbor has been known to spend all day cutting and welding metal. 

They know about my hobby. Heck, my neighbor's wife said they were going to come watch a movie when it's done and her husband wants me to finish before the football season ends so we can have a super bowl party.


----------



## req

so when are you putting four 18" subwoofers IB in the attic walls?


----------



## claydo

Four.....psssh...that horn setup may call for 8 or 10! Lol. I'm super jealous of this setup, cos it's exactly what I wanted in my home theater.......If I ever get around to finishing my upstairs....


----------



## ErinH

Dunno about subs just yet. I'm still leaning toward two pair of either SI HT18 or AE IB18HT. I'm also looking in to some other options, though. The FTW-21 LTE is on GB for $310/each right now. I still need to do some research on all these, though. By research I mean modeling. Then there's just plain ol' sealed enclosures and ported enclosures with X woofer. Lots of options. Just have to find my tradeoff.


----------



## Babs

I vote some big whompin' horn tapped jobs, flat down to negative 4hz and crack the foundation.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

ErinH said:


> There is a *SERIOUS* overhaul going on with my HT starting early next year. That means the majority of what I have in my HT setup now is going to be posted for sale.
> 
> If there's anything that particularly interests you, lmk. I won't be starting an official FS thread just yet because I would still like to have the HT operational during the Holidays. But, if there's something you are absolutely interested in and are willing to pay in advance then I may be able to work with you.
> 
> To recap, the list of everything I have is:
> 
> (2) Kef R-series concentric drivers
> (2) Scan Speak 26w Revelator Aluminum Cone woofers
> (1) Kef R200c center channel speaker
> (1) Pair of Kef Q100 Bookshelf Speakers
> (3) Crown XLS1500 Amplifiers
> (1) Crown XLS2000 Amplifier
> (1) Onkyo PR-SC885 Pre/Pro
> (1) Rane RPM26Z DSP (2 channel in, 6 channel out)
> (1) Rane RPM88 DSP (8 in, 8 out)
> (2) JL Audio E112 Subwoofers (looking for local pick up on these)
> 
> 
> Some of the above I may be keeping, but I might be persuaded otherwise. I've purposely not listed prices because I'm still not 100% sure on some of it. I definitely won't be pulling anything before Christmas. However, if you are interested in something and want to discuss it, email me ([email protected]). I am usually behind on answering PMs so email is best.


----------



## ErinH

Scott, I looked at it. Larry is trying to get me to go with a BFM design. I'm trying to save myself the hassle of all that wood cutting. That is by far the most annoying part of any build to me. I'd rather fiberglass or bondo something than cut squares (really, in my case, not-squares).


I love when people throw out their wish list ideas. It's always entertaining to see how they'd spend someone else's money and time. lol.


----------



## ErinH

Patrick Bateman said:


>


different strokes. been there. done that. next.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Babs said:


> I vote some big whompin' horn tapped jobs, flat down to negative 4hz and crack the foundation.


I'm always stealing ideas from Geddes, and here's another one that's been working well for me:

First, I use three subs from 30hz to about 100hz. By using multiple subs you 'even out' the response all over the room, by randomizing room modes.

After doing that, you use *another* sub to play infrabass, about 15hz to 30hz. The idea is that you don't need multiple subs at 20hz because it's below the Schroeder frequency.

I know that sounds like a lot of subs, but the difference is unmistakable. With a single sub the loudest spot in the room isn't my listening seat, it's my stairway!


----------



## Patrick Bateman

ErinH said:


> different strokes. been there. done that. next.


Half the reason I'm sad to see this gear go is that I may have to buy it myself


----------



## ErinH

Patrick Bateman said:


> First, I use three subs from 30hz to about 100hz. By using multiple subs you 'even out' the response all over the room, by randomizing room modes.
> 
> After doing that, you use *another* sub to play infrabass, about 15hz to 30hz. *The idea is that you don't need multiple subs at 20hz because it's below the Schroeder frequency.*


well, in that case, so are your other 3 subs' bandpass. Unless your room is a concert hall.


----------



## ErinH

Patrick Bateman said:


> Half the reason I'm sad to see this gear go is that I may have to buy it myself


not all of it is going just yet.


the truth is, I like the Kefs. I LOVE the kefs. But I want high efficiency. I want that movie theater sound. No matter what I do, in my home, I can't get the sound I'm after. Sure, it sounds great from a reference perspective. But it just doesn't have that *sound* I'm after. And I know exactly what _that _sound is because I've heard it. Every day.

We are spoiled in the car. We sit about 3 feet away from our drivers. In a home, you sit at least double that, if not triple that. So, on average, your 89dB @ 2.83v/1m speakers are now 83dB sensitive at 2m and 77dB at 3m. 

Now, you consider HE drivers in a home. 99dB @ 1m is 87dB @ 3m. That's about the normal SPL level you listen to daily in your car. 


*PS: I'm not saying efficiency is the ONLY factor to dynamics. but it certainly plays a part.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

ErinH said:


> well, in that case, so are your other 3 subs' bandpass. Unless your room is a concert hall.


Not true.

If you want to improve the sound of your home stereo, multiple subs is probably one of the most effective ways to do it. Besides evening out the bass response in the room, I've also noticed that it allows for a much, much higher F3 on the subs. This is because subs produce a ton of distortion, so when you're running a single sub, one of the reasons it's so easy to localize is because the distortion is frequently more audible than the fundamental.

I've also noticed that raising the F3 on the mains has the effect of making *everything* sound more dynamic. Basically a lot of what we perceive as "dynamics" is actually headroom, and raising the F3 of the mains raises the headroom.

TLDR: Three subs makes everything sound better, not just the bass, but the midbass and midrange too.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

ErinH said:


> not all of it is going just yet.
> 
> 
> the truth is, I like the Kefs. I LOVE the kefs. But I want high efficiency. I want that movie theater sound. No matter what I do, in my home, I can't get the sound I'm after. Sure, it sounds great from a reference perspective. But it just doesn't have that *sound* I'm after. And I know exactly what _that _sound is because I've heard it. Every day.
> 
> We are spoiled in the car. We sit about 3 feet away from our drivers. In a home, you sit at least double that, if not triple that. So, on average, your 89dB @ 2.83v/1m speakers are now 83dB sensitive at 2m and 77dB at 3m.
> 
> Now, you consider HE drivers in a home. 99dB @ 1m is 87dB @ 3m. That's about the normal SPL level you listen to daily in your car.
> 
> 
> *PS: I'm not saying efficiency is the ONLY factor to dynamics. but it certainly plays a part.


That's reasonable. When I used to live in Oregon I played my Summas so loud you could probably hear them in the next city. (I lived 1000 feet away from the next city so I'm not exaggerating  )

Here in San Diego I'm greatly limited by what my neighbors will tolerate. Kefs are fantastic; if someone has a budget of $1000-$2000 you can't do much better.

But if you want LOUD your going to be limited by the tweeter, which means compression drivers are the way to go.

One of the reasons I've been doing so much work with cardioids and dipoles lately is to focus as much energy at the listening seat as possible. Basically if I can reduce energy going to the back wall by 10dB, then I can crank it up louder... Because everything going backwards is annoying the neighbors.


----------



## ErinH

Patrick Bateman said:


> TLDR: Three subs makes everything sound better, not just the bass, but the midbass and midrange too.


LOL. Man, you missed my point. 

You are preaching to the choir about spreading midbass. I've been subscribing to that notion for as long as Geddes has been discussing it on diyA. Seems like EVERYBODY does that. Ironically, Harman's studies has shown that 2 subs is enough. And the very ironic part is people use multiple "subs" in small rooms. Crossed below 80hz. The benefit isn't in the LFE but more so in the lower midbass/lower midrange (as you already noted).


----------



## ErinH

Patrick Bateman said:


> But if you want LOUD your going to be limited by the tweeter, which means compression drivers are the way to go.


Not just loud. But controlled as well. I like the fact that I can control the directivity to as low as 500hz (probably won't go that low on these CD's just because). Keeps the response at each seat more even. 

It will be interested to see how the coverage angle of these plays in to the imaging. I've toyed with them already a bit and it's definitely different from wide radiating cone/dome drivers.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

ErinH said:


> Not just loud. But controlled as well. I like the fact that I can control the directivity to as low as 500hz (probably won't go that low on these CD's just because). Keeps the response at each seat more even.
> 
> It will be interested to see how the coverage angle of these plays in to the imaging. I've toyed with them already a bit and it's definitely different from wide radiating cone/dome drivers.


That's a tricky one.

My Summas have one of the best waveguides in the world. But the thing that I notice with both the Summas and the Synergy horns is a 'giant headphone effect.'

Basically the level of sound radiated towards the side and the backwalls is so low, there's zero ambiance.

BTW, that's the reason that this project worked exactly as designed, and I ripped it out within a month of me finishing it: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...ussion/60146-creating-perfect-soundstage.html

Great sound, zero ambiance.


Has anyone here listened to speakers from Alon, Nola, Quad, or Gradient?

Those speakers are basically the opposite of what my Summas do. They really 'light up' the room.

There's been a couple of times when speakers from the *first* category have been pitted against speakers from the *second* category:









1) Earl Geddes pitted the Gradient Revolutions against his own Summas. I haven't been able to find the results for years, I think they used to be on his old web site but he put up a new one. In the pic above, the speakers in the center were Earl's JBLs, which he replaced with the Summas on the far right. Gradient Revolution is between the two.
2) An AES group in the midwest pitted Gary Eickmeiers "Imp" speakers against the Linkwitz Orions and the Behringer Monitors. The Imps won, followed by the Behringers. Linkwitz came in last.


I really think cardioids might work the best. You get reflections off the back wall, but not as much as you would with a dipole. Even better, cardioids and dipoles don't suffer from that 'listening to a giant set of headphones' effect that I hear with constant directivity monopoles.

Subjectively, one of my favorite things about cardioids is that they're incredibly revealing in the midrange and midbass. This is similar to the effect that you get with a good waveguide. When listening to a good waveguide there's an ability to see "into" the recording in a way that conventional tweeters don't do, because conventional tweeters have a ton of early reflections.

If anyone is curious about some of this babble I'm talking about, go listen to these speakers:









Acarian Systems Alón Circe loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
Any of the dipoles from Nola or Alon (basically the same company)










Any of the speakers from Emerald Physics or Spatial Computer (both designed by Clayton Shaw)

Basically these new designs, like the new ones from Clayton Shaw and Siegfried Linkwitz, combine waveguides for the high frequency with dipoles or cardioids for the midrange and/or midbass.

Also, there's about one degree of separation in these designs. The Gradient Revolution was inspired by the Quad ESL. The Revolution uses a Seas coincident which is very very similar to your Kef coincident. The Summas were designed to beat the JBLs. It's pretty clear that Clayton Shaw was inspired by both Geddes and Linkwitz. Etc. I keep trying to get Carl Marchisotto to divulge his secrets, but he's not as talkative as the other guys I copy 

[/font]


----------



## ErinH

Patrick Bateman said:


> That's a tricky one.
> 
> Basically the level of sound radiated towards the side and the backwalls is so low, there's zero ambiance.


This is where multichannel sound helps. Geddes, Danley and the folks who back horns based designs for their high directivity seem to favor that aspect of less interaction with the room. Whereas Toole (in his book Sound Reproduction) basically says that an Omni source is better because it radiates evenly across the room. ASW and LEV are due to the reflections in the room. ASW is tied directly to angle of incidence; you can obtain greater width _through _reflection. That's where Linkwitz falls in line as well. The tradeoff here, though, is the imaging isn't as tight. This is covered in the book as well in numerous chapters.

Granted, I'm summarizing it probably a bit too concise but that's the cliff notes version. 

That's why I love the kefs in the car. It 'spreads the chaos'. Sure you may lose *pinpoint* imaging, but the soundstage is very, very big. In a 2-channel car setup, I think that's the best way to go and what you said about high directivity in your car lacking seems to back that up.


This is where multichannel really seems to be a factor. With the multichannel you can increase ASW & LEV through the playback of the mix. So with horns you lose the side and vertical specular interaction because they have higher diretivity, but you gain tightness in imaging and less seat-to-seat variance; the multichannel brings back the additional sense of space. 

I should also note that this is also room dependent. But, for most of us here dealing with car/home fi, we are in this boat.

That's why this stuff is so dang hard. Not only do you have to deal with the tradeoffs, but you have to understand what they are and it's taken me a long time and a lot of fiddling with various setups to really "get" it. I'm a hands on guy, so many folks may be able to read it and understand it just fine. But not me. The experience really backs up what I read and vice versa.


----------



## ErinH

In other news, I found the time to sim a couple designs. o

Red: JBL spec tuning/half box size (since it's one less woofer) @ 4 ft3, fb = 40hz 

Yellow = 3.84ft3, fb 53

Blue = 2.78, fb 60




BBP let's me use an active filter as well so I just applied that to the 2.8ft3, fb 60hz model real quick.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

ErinH said:


> This is where multichannel sound helps. Geddes, Danley and the folks who back horns based designs for their high directivity seem to favor that aspect of less interaction with the room. Whereas Toole (in his book Sound Reproduction) basically says that an Omni source is better because it radiates evenly across the room. ASW and LEV are due to the reflections in the room. ASW is tied directly to angle of incidence; you can obtain greater width _through _reflection. That's where Linkwitz falls in line as well. The tradeoff here, though, is the imaging isn't as tight. This is covered in the book as well in numerous chapters.
> 
> Granted, I'm summarizing it probably a bit too concise but that's the cliff notes version.
> 
> That's why I love the kefs in the car. It 'spreads the chaos'. Sure you may lose *pinpoint* imaging, but the soundstage is very, very big. In a 2-channel car setup, I think that's the best way to go and what you said about high directivity in your car lacking seems to back that up.
> 
> 
> This is where multichannel really seems to be a factor. With the multichannel you can increase ASW & LEV through the playback of the mix. So with horns you lose the side and vertical specular interaction because they have higher diretivity, but you gain tightness in imaging and less seat-to-seat variance; the multichannel brings back the additional sense of space.
> 
> I should also note that this is also room dependent. But, for most of us here dealing with car/home fi, we are in this boat.
> 
> That's why this stuff is so dang hard. Not only do you have to deal with the tradeoffs, but you have to understand what they are and it's taken me a long time and a lot of fiddling with various setups to really "get" it. I'm a hands on guy, so many folks may be able to read it and understand it just fine. But not me. The experience really backs up what I read and vice versa.


Couldn't agree more.

Jon Whitledge and I were listening to some tunes in the Magic Bus, and it's funny because he's into jazz and music that's really REALLY well recorded.

I'm into EDM and pop music. Due to that, a lot of the music I listen to is basically mono. And due to THAT, additional ambience goes a long way.

But if the ambience is already in the recording, then high directivity is a great option.


----------



## ErinH

After a whole lot of deliberation about which way to go for low end response (including HE drivers from B&C, various horn type designs, conventional designs, and IB I finally pulled the trigger...

(4) of the Stereo Integrity HT18's for IB usage. A pair for each 1/3 side of the room, which I've found is the best placement in my room to fight modes. 
HT18 18″ Subwoofer | Stereo Integrity


I compared these to the Fi and AE IB18 options. I wanted to go with the AE but ultimately the cost of the SI won out. Four of the SI for $757 shipped, which is roughly half of what 4 of the AE IB18HT's would have ran me. The AE's modeled a touch better in the 20-40hz region. At best, the AE was about 3dB up in response at 25hz. Below 10hz and above 40-400hz, they were fairly on par. The AE's would have been a better choice if I were needing to cross high to the horn or something like that. 

According to my sims, the AE ran out of excursion in the sub-20hz region, which is an important area for me. The group delay on the SI's also modeled better in my particular 'enclosure' space for IB usage. 

And, again, there's the price. Gonna be a while before I am able to build anything but I wanted to go ahead and get them ordered so it's one less thing to worry about.


----------



## mikey7182

ErinH said:


> After a whole lot of deliberation about which way to go for low end response (including HE drivers from B&C, various horn type designs, conventional designs, and IB I finally pulled the trigger...
> 
> (4) of the Stereo Integrity HT18's for IB usage. A pair for each 1/3 side of the room, which I've found is the best placement in my room to fight modes.
> HT18 18″ Subwoofer | Stereo Integrity
> 
> 
> I compared these to the Fi and AE IB18 options. I wanted to go with the AE but ultimately the cost of the SI won out. Four of the SI for $757 shipped, which is roughly half of what 4 of the AE IB18HT's would have ran me. The AE's modeled a touch better in the 20-40hz region. At best, the AE was about 3dB up in response at 25hz. Below 10hz and above 40-400hz, they were fairly on par. The AE's would have been a better choice if I were needing to cross high to the horn or something like that.
> 
> According to my sims, the AE ran out of excursion in the sub-20hz region, which is an important area for me. The group delay on the SI's also modeled better in my particular 'enclosure' space for IB usage.
> 
> And, again, there's the price. Gonna be a while before I am able to build anything but I wanted to go ahead and get them ordered so it's one less thing to worry about.


Nice! Was wondering where you ended up on this. I too ordered an HT18 for my IB install. The price is virtually impossible to beat for what you get.


----------



## subwoofery

Yep... Hard to beat money wise  

Data-Bass 

Kelvin


----------



## Kevin K

Wow, should sound (feel) very nice


----------



## req

ErinH said:


> finally pulled the trigger...
> 
> (4) of the Stereo Integrity HT18's for IB usage.


woooo!!! 

so four holes in the side walls and four baffles in those holes and you are done!


----------



## ErinH

I'm about 90% sure they're not going in the side walls. They'll be placed behind the baffle wall, pretty much where my current subs are positioned. The response there is ideal; helps smooth out the response in the room better than at the corners. I still need to do some more testing since the wall will be about 2-3ft forward of the current corners, but unless I find something in further testing, they'll be at the wall (not coupled to the wall).

Yes, there's enough space.


----------



## schmiddr2

Wait, are you building a wall for IB? They are nice subs; I'm sure 4 of them will get the job done.


----------



## ErinH

Building a baffle wall. Not for IB, but for the whole shebang. 

Like this...
http://www.thx.com/professional/cinema-certification/speaker-layout-and-baffle-wall/


----------



## req

ahh i see. very cool! i cant wait to see this!


----------



## ErinH




----------



## schmiddr2

Isint it fun to open up a box with such huge subs!


----------



## ErinH

Did someone say... satellite subs for room smoothing?....


2* 12TW1-4













Because I'm all about that bass, 'bout that bass ...


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Ugh I want to buy a new house, just so I can build some real subs.

#****smallhomes


----------



## ErinH

I'm likely going to put these JL's in the rear seat platform (that's why I bought them, actually). The seat riser will be about 7-8" tall which gives enough depth to countersink the sub in to the riser. 

But, as with anything, I'll have to test that notion out to see how well I can smooth the response with the subs in those locations. I have other options if that doesn't pan out. I want stealth, so I can go with the rear seat riser or build a side table or even put them in the walls. I'll try to post measurements of the room response with the subs being moved around in case anyone is curious. but that'll be next month most likely.

I'm geeked. These little subs are SICK.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

Erin, you my friend have a sickness!


----------



## schmiddr2

Indeed, and it's fun to watch! Plus it would be cool to experience the HT at a GTG.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

ErinH said:


> I'm likely going to put these JL's in the rear seat platform (that's why I bought them, actually). The seat riser will be about 7-8" tall which gives enough depth to countersink the sub in to the riser.
> 
> But, as with anything, I'll have to test that notion out to see how well I can smooth the response with the subs in those locations. I have other options if that doesn't pan out. I want stealth, so I can go with the rear seat riser or build a side table or even put them in the walls. I'll try to post measurements of the room response with the subs being moved around in case anyone is curious. but that'll be next month most likely.
> 
> I'm geeked. These little subs are SICK.


Very interesting...I've never been impressed with the TW5 series but it looks like the TW1 is working with an overall deeper structure. They sound good with decent extension?


----------



## ErinH

Here's a picture of most of the gear I'll be using with the overhaul. 











And my new JL 12tw1's. I love these things. I'm gonna put these in the kicks of my next car. Lol.


----------



## Blazemore

ErinH said:


> Here's a picture of most of the gear I'll be using with the overhaul.


Going to be working on the guns too...very smart  You'll need it with all that heavy lifting. 

Interesting you didn't go with the x4100w. 4K ultra too soon?


----------



## ErinH

The x4100 is about $800 more than what I picked up the x4000 for. I don't want or need Atmos that bad!


----------



## ErinH

For those who may be interested, this is a copy/paste of a post I made on avsforum last night. I spent a lot of time researching baffle walls for my upcoming build, looking at industry specs and what others have done. There are a few "professionals" there that prescribe X method which just seems to be an emulation of what THX spec is, which makes no sense for a home theater; the constraints aren't the same and even vary with build to build. The more I researched, the more I found that people just blindly do things others did and it seems to be without any effort to consider why, thus costing them more money and time.


For example, acoustical treatment on the baffle wall. People are going out and spending hundreds of dollars on treating their wall in various manners. So, I posted the following last night, hoping to shed some light on the purpose of treating the wall.



> Let me ask this: what is the purpose of the acoustic material used on the wall? Is it to eliminate comb filtering between the speaker and the screen? Or should it be purposed to be more of a broadband absorber, absorbing both the front wall speaker/screen reflection and reflections from other speakers (ie; rear speakers)?
> 
> If the former, I can understand using a thinner material or a material such as wedge foam because it's absorption ratio increases with frequency; in this case you are absorbing essentially what is reflected off the screen back to the wall and lessening comb filtering issues from these two surfaces (and even doing the same for speaker reflections from the rest of the room as they go through the screen, to the wall, and back out).
> However, why the need to treat an entire wall if the side speakers are a reasonable distance from the screen (notably, where beaming has occurred and the very high frequencies from the L/R speakers are not comb filtering off the screen/wall).
> 
> 
> The suggested standard for a 'THX Baffle Wall' is 1" acoustic foam. Here's an excerpt from this site for example: Welcome to CES Tech page!.
> 
> 
> 
> The entire face of the baffle structure is covered with 1" (25 mm) Coated InsulSHIELD" Black, a product manufactured by Schuller International, Inc. This is a specific product.
> No substitutes are accepted unless the acoustical properties of the material in question are the same as that of the 1" (25 mm) Coated InsulSHIELD'" Black. In this case, a sample and specification of the material must be submitted to THX for approval.
> 
> 
> 
> There must be a reason for this, right?
> 
> So, what does the IS Black do in regards to absorption?...
> Well, I looked up the absorption coefficients for InsulShield Black 1" (1.5pcf (24kg/m3) via Bob Gold's site.
> (Note: The 1" Linacoustic that I see referred to a lot was close enough to not also include mainly because I didn't want to graph it again as you'll understand as you read further.)
> 
> 
> 
> First, the graph from the IS Black 1":
> 
> 
> When you look at what is spec'd by THX the shape of the absorption curve indicates higher absorption with higher frequency (understanding that thickness plays a role here). This leaves me wondering if, again, the intent is simply to mitigate the comb filtering OR if the purpose is more broadband absorption. The latter seems not quite as plausible; otherwise I would think that THX would spec a thicker material such as 2" or more. Especially since they're (THX) the one driving the spec.
> But, that's just an assumption based on what I'm seeing. I don't know for sure that the goal wouldn't be broadband absorption, but it seems to me the logic lies in eliminating comb filtering more so than broadband absorption, based on what I'm seeing from the data and some of the other aspects.
> 
> 
> 
> Next, for my own curiosity, I graphed the results of the IS Black 1" vs the various thicknesses of FoamByMail's Wedge Foam.
> (Note: I don't have Auralex's data. The best I have is FBM's discussion here which I can only assume is true, otherwise Auralex's lawyers would have them for lunch. BUT I'M NOT ARGUING PERFORMANCE OF AURALEX VS FBM.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then I 'normalized' the wedge foams at 1khz by adding the difference of the IS Black to each of the (4) FBM wedge pieces so you could get an idea of the trend (not just the numbers):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comparing the wedge foam, the 2" version (once 'normalized' by adding 0.09 to each octave component) seems to be the closest match to the IS Black 1". I don't know what IS Black 1" costs, so the 2" wedge may be a nice cost/performance match if the IS is expensive. That said, you can still see the obvious skew of the IS Black to the higher frequencies.
> 
> Of course, the screen material now is likely different than what it was when the spec was made. I've seen random posts here and there about the acoustical properties of (enter model of screen here), and it's pretty obvious all aren't created equal. I think the ideal situation would be to find a screen which drives the response in a linear fashion (ie; a smooth attenuation from x hz - xx hz as opposed to a jagged combing pattern) and match that up with an absorption material that follows the same trend. To me, that makes the most sense because you're essentially matching up the frequency range and pattern of combing caused by the screen to a material that can absorb those frequencies. You're not going to easily do this with a saw-tooth type comb, so based on what I came up with above I'd personally lean toward a screen design that filters out the response smoothly over a given passband than one that has very large comb-teeth and try to match absorption accordingly. If nothing else, it's easier to throw a parametric EQ curve at something and shelf the response opposite that of the attenuation as opposed to individually selecting bands to try to compensate for (if it's even possible).
> 
> Given the above, it seems that for those who want to emulate the IS Black performance, albeit at a slightly lower level, might be interested in the 2" wedge foam from FBM. That's actually what I first considered and after this, I am leaning even more towards it.
Click to expand...


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Awesome info. It is a pet peeve of mine that so many people throw out "room treatment" as a recommendation but have no idea what they are talking about. Glad I'm not alone


----------



## ErinH

Projector and screen have been sold. Speakers are gutted. At this point the only items left are the Crowns and Oppo. 

Like the Boston Celtics, it's time to start the rebuild process...


----------



## req

wow man. that was quick!


----------



## ErinH

The PJ and screen had to go. As great as the Epson 8350 is in it's price bracket, I was never truly satisfied with the performance (and the noisy fan). I know that to get what I want out of a PJ, I had to step up to the next price bracket. As I always do, I researched my options to death. As it stands, this will be my new projector:
Sony VPL-HW40ES Projector Review


The keys to me are it's best-in-class color accuracy, it's native contrast level being higher than it's competitors, and the low fan noise (the Epson 8350 and other Epson models are loud, IME, and distracting). I'll be purchasing in a week or two once I hear back from my dealer. I would love to step up even further to a JVC PJ but at >$3k for their 'baseline', it's just too far out of my budget. 

I plan to order it in a couple weeks.


----------



## quality_sound

Funny, I just sold my Panny and Sammy plasma and when I went looking saw that Panasonic actually left the plasma market leaving just Samsung. I'm not sure how I feel about that and I've always preferred Panasonic. I simply can not watch an LCD a so I'm looking at my options again and been thinking about a PJ but since it would be my "daily driver" it's hard to commit to one 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

I think you'll be surprised to find PJ's are great even for daily use. The only (obvious) issue is lamp life. If you have a light controlled room then it softens the blow considerably. Factors such as screen, room, etc all effect PJ choice so it would require it's own discussion to determine what really fits your needs. Suffice it to say, if you have the budget and the capability, it sure is fun.  I initially didn't expect to use my PJ for anything more than a movie. But, I found that I use it a lot for sporting events and movies on TV.


----------



## Babs

Especially when you can hear the crack of the pads on a good hit at reference level. Hehe  

It'll be interesting how you approach the room scientifically as opposed to throwing up panels as I'd have probably done prior without data just going on the usual norm from avsforum rooms. I imagine it gets pretty complex as well if you throw diffusion in the equation as well as absorption. The room becomes part of the whole pretty quick like a tuned instrument.


----------



## ErinH

yea... after my in-laws first watched the NBA Finals on my screen, we have become to go-to place for sporting events. which is great by me. it's actually one of the reasons my wife has been so supportive of me with this overhaul.


----------



## AVIDEDTR

JVC makes great projectors Erin.


----------



## ErinH

LOL. I know this, dude. But I can't afford even their entry level one. Did you miss my post above?



ErinH said:


> I would love to step up even further to a JVC PJ but at >$3k for their 'baseline', it's just too far out of my budget.


----------



## WestCo

ErinH said:


> Projector and screen have been sold. Speakers are gutted. At this point the only items left are the Crowns and Oppo.
> 
> Like the Boston Celtics, it's time to start the rebuild process...


AWWWW YEAAAHHHH


----------



## quality_sound

ErinH said:


> I think you'll be surprised to find PJ's are great even for daily use. The only (obvious) issue is lamp life. If you have a light controlled room then it softens the blow considerably. Factors such as screen, room, etc all effect PJ choice so it would require it's own discussion to determine what really fits your needs. Suffice it to say, if you have the budget and the capability, it sure is fun.  I initially didn't expect to use my PJ for anything more than a movie. But, I found that I use it a lot for sporting events and movies on TV.



I'll hit you up later about this. Just got home from Arkansas and I'm whooped. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## schmiddr2

I had one of the early Toshiba DLP projectors about 2000-01, with an 100" screen. I was pretty impressed by it overall.

Power consumption, heat, replacing bulbs are drawbacks, but LED is slowly making progress in the PJ market.


----------



## quality_sound

I'm SUPER sensitive to motion blur (it nauseates me) so I'd probably have to give up some PQ and do DLP. I'd really prefer to stay with a plasma but everyone stopped making them this year and I can't find the Panasonic I want. 
Not a hugeSamsung fan but I may try the F8500 as I hear good things about it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## claydo

The Samsung 8500 plasma is awesome. It's blacks are plenty dark and inky. While the renowned panny z series may be blacker, it can't hold a candle to the Samsung in light output. So in anything other than a blacked out theater room the Samsung looks better to me. This and the better suite of smart features sold me on the 8500, and I bought mine when the panny was still available. Anyways.....back to the horn and projector goodness!


----------



## Patrick Bateman

ErinH said:


> The PJ and screen had to go. As great as the Epson 8350 is in it's price bracket, I was never truly satisfied with the performance (and the noisy fan). I know that to get what I want out of a PJ, I had to step up to the next price bracket. As I always do, I researched my options to death. As it stands, this will be my new projector:
> Sony VPL-HW40ES Projector Review
> 
> 
> The keys to me are it's best-in-class color accuracy, it's native contrast level being higher than it's competitors, and the low fan noise (the Epson 8350 and other Epson models are loud, IME, and distracting). I'll be purchasing in a week or two once I hear back from my dealer. I would love to step up even further to a JVC PJ but at >$3k for their 'baseline', it's just too far out of my budget.
> 
> I plan to order it in a couple weeks.


I've gone through a pile of projectors. I've had two JVC D-ILA projectors and some PJ that was so bad I can't even remember who sold it. In the past six years I've owned a succession of the entry level Optoma projectors. The first one I had was a 720P model that I was really happy with. I followed that up with their first 1080P model that sold for under $1000. I wasn't incredibly happy with that one; the 720P model was noticeably sharper. So despite the fact that the 1080P model had twice as many pixels, the 720P model had a better picture in many respects. (Both cost about the same.)

Six months ago I purchased a replacement for the 1080P PJ. I mostly did this because the cost of a new bulb was about half as much as the cost of an entire projector.

So I wasn't expecting much of a difference with the new PJ.

Boy, was I wrong. The new PJ has blacker blacks, whiter whites and it's 3D.

I bought all three projectors from Woot. They seem to have them for about 25% off the retail. Each one cost $700, give or take $100.

Not saying that the Sony is a bad PJ; I've lusted after it many times. But the Optoma HD25E is shockingly good for $700ish. I paid $649 for mine, and it's currently available online for $679.

I really can't see a scenario where I'll go back to a regular TV. My projector has a 100" screen and I'd go bigger if I had a bigger wall! I actually bought a 55" IPS TV, used it for about six months, then went back to the PJ. Once you get accustomed to a 100" screen, a 55" feels ridiculously small. One thing for people to consider though, is that it seems like the picture degrades as the bulb ages. I think that's one of the reasons the new projector blew the old projector out of the water. While the old PJ's bulb was still within it's operating life, it *had* been used for nearly five years straight, with no replacement.


----------



## Weightless

quality_sound said:


> I'm SUPER sensitive to motion blur (it nauseates me) so I'd probably have to give up some PQ and do DLP. I'd really prefer to stay with a plasma but everyone stopped making them this year and I can't find the Panasonic I want.
> Not a hugeSamsung fan but I may try the F8500 as I hear good things about it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If your sensitive to motion blur, you may not like dlp either. Some people are sensitive to the "rainbow effect" that single chip dlp has (like me). Thats the biggest reason that I am not a fan of single chip dlp projectors. Not everyone is affected by it so you may want to to find a way to test drive one with content that has a lot of movement. While they have improved it over the years, for some projectors it still is painfully obvious.

And, ime, unless you can find a single chip dlp that has a 6 segment or higher color wheel, the colors aren't very accurate out of the box. They definitely need to be calibrated.


----------



## quality_sound

I've owned a DLP RP (Panasonic and Mitsubishi) and blur was never an issue. I'm not too sensitive to RBE so that helps. My RPs were 3-chip DLPs though.

I really want to look at the F8500 but no one local has one so timeouts be a leap of faith. My last Sammy buzzed and that was annoying as hell. The PQ was pretty good. Not Panny good, but acceptable and a bit brighter, which helped. 

I'm seriously looking at a PJ but I need to see how I'd rearrange my living room. Right now it's 24 feet from where the PJ would sit to where the screen would be. I haven't measured the width but I think I can make it work. 

Not knowing anything about PJs I don't want to lose any PQ from my Panny but I also game so as little input lag and motion blur as possible is ideal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AVIDEDTR

ErinH said:


> LOL. I know this, dude. But I can't afford even their entry level one. Did you miss my post above?


oh I read it for sure, just pointing it out again


----------



## Ultimateherts

If this is a true theater (light controlled) why not get a CRT projector? They can do 4k resolution on the 9" tubes and it is future proof because newer tubes are still readily available (red, green, blue). Not to mention the tubes last for 30k hours or more. They do weigh a few hundred pounds, but can be mounted on a celing or on a table up off the floor.


----------



## ErinH

Ultimateherts said:


> If this is a true theater (light controlled) why not get a CRT projector? They can do 4k resolution on the 9" tubes and it is future proof because newer tubes are still readily available (red, green, blue). Not to mention the tubes last for 30k hours or more. They do weigh a few hundred pounds, but can be mounted on a celing or on a table up off the floor.


I very briefly looked at that option before I bought my first Epson. The consensus over on AVS was they are much more of a 'hobby' item that can net excellent PQ unrivaled by some current Digital PJs. But, to get that kind of performance isn't necessarily cheap. What I read at the time about their relatively high maintenance turned me away, especially given my budget. I haven't looked back in to them since then, so I'll see what is out there in turn-key performance... because given everything else I've got going on, the absolute last thing I want to be fiddling with is essentially salvaging parts off eBay and spending numerous hours piece-mealing a CRT.


----------



## Freedom First

ErinH said:


> I very briefly looked at that option before I bought my first Epson. The consensus over on AVS was they are much more of a 'hobby' item that can net excellent PQ unrivaled by some current Digital PJs. But, to get that kind of performance isn't necessarily cheap. What I read at the time about their relatively high maintenance turned me away, especially given my budget. I haven't looked back in to them since then, so I'll see what is out there in turn-key performance... because given everything else I've got going on, the absolute last thing I want to be fiddling with is essentially salvaging parts off eBay and spending numerous hours piece-mealing a CRT.



They're really not that high maintenance, and over time, cost less to operate than a digital PJ (no bulbs to replace on a regular basis). I have a 8" CRT hanging in my multi-purpose room, and I've had to replace one component in the last 7 years (and it cost me about $15). 

I've thought about going over to the "lighter" side of digitals, but just can't justify it. There's some things that CRT's still do better than all but upper-end digitals. At some point, I will probably upgrade to a 9", if I find the right unit and a screamin' deal.

Here's a website to check out if you want to give more consideration to a CRT: CurtPalme.com Home Theater sales, calibration, service, and discussion forum


----------



## ErinH

^ yea, I was just looking at that.

to get good 1080P you're talking some good bucks. Looking at their 'higher end' which are intended to support 1080p, the cheapest I come away with is the NEC XG75 at $1800, which according to their notes:


> These projectors are able to display a 1080p signal but the resulting image will definitely be too soft or smeared to be usable. It is best to use 720p or 1080i on these projectors (1080i is preferred, especially if the content is Blu-ray or broadcast HD).


You have to step up to the 'LC' model to get legit 1080p performance, which is $2800.
And the HDMI conversion is another $260+ (and he doesn't even have them listed in stock). 

All in all, these are severely over my budget. I can get a BNIB, fully authorized Sony HW40ES for <$1600 from a dealer. I don't see any CRTs that can touch that price and provide the 1080p performance I want, and if you add on 3D (which isn't a selling point, but a neat touch with the kid), it's even costlier.

Fan noise concerns me, and since that's not quantified it's hard for me to say if it's a legit concern. The Marquee units can have a fan mod done to them which would then rival the fan noise of the Sony but that mod is about $300 as well.
Replacement bulbs for some of the nicer CRT options are >$500 each. 

I understand the CRT life is much better, but it seems the Sony I'm leaning towards is still the best option for my needs. shopping around... I can't find any way to touch the price of the sony I'd planned to get. I understand the CRT PQ is better, but I can't even afford a CRT to do the basic things I need (1080P for TV, HDMI input) for under $2800. If you guys can find something in CRT to provide those basics for the price bracket I'm in (<$1600), I am definitely all ears, though.


----------



## Freedom First

ErinH said:


> ^ yea, I was just looking at that.
> 
> to get good 1080P you're talking some good bucks. Looking at their 'higher end' which are intended to support 1080p, the cheapest I come away with is the NEC XG75 at $1800, which according to their notes:
> 
> 
> You have to step up to the 'LC' model to get legit 1080p performance, which is $2800.
> And the HDMI conversion is another $260+ (and he doesn't even have them listed in stock).
> 
> All in all, these are severely over my budget. I can get a BNIB, fully authorized Sony HW40ES for <$1600 from a dealer. I don't see any CRTs that can touch that price and provide the 1080p performance I want, and if you add on 3D (which isn't a selling point, but a neat touch with the kid), it's even costlier.
> 
> Fan noise concerns me, and since that's not quantified it's hard for me to say if it's a legit concern. The Marquee units can have a fan mod done to them which would then rival the fan noise of the Sony but that mod is about $300 as well.
> 
> Replacement bulbs for some of the nicer CRT options are >$500 each. I understand the CRT life is much better, but it seems the Sony I'm leaning towards is still the best option for my needs. If you guys can find something in CRT to rival what the Sony gives me at the same price, I am definitely all ears, though.


Curt's prices are a little on the high side for used PJ's, but then again, they've been thoroughly cleaned, inspected and tested.

I have a dealer friend as well, and I've looked at that same Sony. Even though I can get it at a couple points over his cost, I just can't do it. Maybe if I was starting with nothing, it'd be an easy decision to make. Setup is definitely easier with the digital, and I've done both over the years (used to do installs and calibrations). I still prefer the look of a CRT, however.

Incidentally, I am feeding mine 1080p through a HDMI>RGBHV converter, and while what's stated about the image being a little soft (due to the limited bandwidth) is true, it's still an impressive image. I find that the source has more to do with the image quality in my setup, rather than the "limitations" of my PJ. Lack of motion artifacts and rainbow/judder more than makes up for it.


----------



## ErinH

good info.

this is all completely new to me. I imagine if you've seen my posts you know that I'm not really scared to try things. At the same time, however, sometimes I just want turn-key and simple. Curt's site seemed to offer that albeit at a cost, as you stated. 

Ultimately, it looks like I could do just fine if I were able to a) increase my budget and/or b) spend a good deal of time on a CRT. But, as it stands, I'm not sure I'm prepared to do both. I really do need to do some more research on this, though. Mind if I post a few things here and bounce stuff off you just for completeness? If so...

Fan noise: The Epson 8350 I have now is, what I would call, noisy. I can hear it when listening to music and on soft passages of audio in a movie and I hate it. The Epson 5030ub has the same noise specs, so I assume they are then the same in this regard. The Sony is said to be about 5dB quieter in it's eco mode vs that of the Epson in eco mode. So, that was a win for the Sony.

PQ: So it seems that CRT is really the winner in PQ and blackness levels. No motion blur to worry about which is a plus. The 1080p concern I pointed out earlier... you said it's not an issue to you. I'll be feeding the PJ signal via HDMI from my Oppo. Other sources include DirecTV box and AppleTV box. 

Price: As we've discussed, Curt's prices are high. If I'm willing to sink down and do this stuff myself, it looks like I can manage to go cheaper. Do you have enough experience with PJs that do 1080p on all sources very well to speak on realistic price ranges? Or is your experience more in the intermediate (to borrow a term from Curt's site) range of PJs? Have you done any mods (such as the HDMI mod) or the like? 



Full disclosure: I'll probably post this info up on avs. lol.

Thanks in advance for any input you have. As I said before, I'm a total nooB wrt CRT PJs, but I'd at least like to vet the idea before dismissing it entirely.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

I just spent about 2 hours reading up about CRT, very cool that some can take 1080P+ resolutions. Now to keep an eye on my local Craigslist for some deals...though I have no idea where I would put one of these. But the cool factor is definitely attractive with these


----------



## ErinH

Architect7 said:


> I just spent about 2 hours reading up about CRT


In the world of internet forums, you are now an expert on the subject! 


lol.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

This is why I love the internet lol.


----------



## Freedom First

ErinH said:


> good info.
> 
> this is all completely new to me. I imagine if you've seen my posts you know that I'm not really scared to try things. At the same time, however, sometimes I just want turn-key and simple. Curt's site seemed to offer that albeit at a cost, as you stated.


That's why I thought you might be one to consider CRT. You're not afraid of anything technical. As far as "turn-key and simple", I certainly don't consider CRT's to be anywhere near that, but once they're set up, they're reliable and dependable. Curt's site is a wealth of knowledge, for sure. Lot of helpful guys over there.



ErinH said:


> Ultimately, it looks like I could do just fine if I were able to a) increase my budget and/or b) spend a good deal of time on a CRT. But, as it stands, I'm not sure I'm prepared to do both. I really do need to do some more research on this, though. Mind if I post a few things here and bounce stuff off you just for completeness? If so...


If your budget was, say $3k for a PJ (and related gear), you'd could be pretty much near the top-end for CRT's. Sure, you can spend much more, but you won't get much more (as is typical of most electronics). I've always regarded the Barco Reality 909 PJ as the "holy grail" of CRT's, and you can find them occasionally for $7500 to $10k, but would it look significantly better than my $1200 Zenith Pro1200 (based on a Barco Cine8 Onyx)? Not $6k-$9k better. 

Ask all you like, just keep in mind that I'm no "expert"... I know just enough to be dangerous. Besides, other than futzing around with my PJ, it's been a few years since I've worked on them with any sort of regularity (for obvious reasons).



ErinH said:


> Fan noise: The Epson 8350 I have now is, what I would call, noisy. I can hear it when listening to music and on soft passages of audio in a movie and I hate it. The Epson 5030ub has the same noise specs, so I assume they are then the same in this regard. The Sony is said to be about 5dB quieter in it's eco mode vs that of the Epson in eco mode. So, that was a win for the Sony.


Fan noise _can_ be an issue, and if you're really sensitive to it, then you have 2 options: due to the placement of CRT's (much closer to the screen than digital PJ's), you can build a "hush box" around it, and vent it into an attic space (when ceiling mounted). Additional fan-forced ventilation is pretty much a "must" with that. My Zenith is relatively quiet (not obnoxious), but I also have a wood burning stove in the same room... when I fire up the stove, the fans ramp-up in the PJ, and it gets a bit noisy. If you want dead silent, then I suggest sticking with a digital, one with a long-throw lens so it can be placed at the back of your room.



ErinH said:


> PQ: So it seems that CRT is really the winner in PQ and blackness levels. No motion blur to worry about which is a plus. The 1080p concern I pointed out earlier... you said it's not an issue to you. I'll be feeding the PJ signal via HDMI from my Oppo. Other sources include DirecTV box and AppleTV box.


Feeding a 1080p signal (or a HDMI signal) to a CRT is a little tricky. You need to have device that can convert the HDMI to RGBHV, and by default, strip HDCP. Technically, these are "hack" devices, but readily available. I'm using one available on Curt's website, by Moome. It's plug-and-play, and works great.




ErinH said:


> Price: As we've discussed, Curt's prices are high. If I'm willing to sink down and do this stuff myself, it looks like I can manage to go cheaper. Do you have enough experience with PJs that do 1080p on all sources very well to speak on realistic price ranges? Or is your experience more in the intermediate (to borrow a term from Curt's site) range of PJs? Have you done any mods (such as the HDMI mod) or the like?


My experience with 1080p is only on my own PJ (which falls in the "high-end" 8" category). My dad has a CRT in his theater as well, but it maxes out at 720p. As for the HDMI mod, I mentioned that, above. Mine is a standalone unit, mounted behind my rack. For some of the PJ's, like the Marquee and Sony's, you can get a card that mounts in the projector itself, and plug a HDMI cable directly into it



ErinH said:


> Full disclosure: I'll probably post this info up on avs. lol.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any input you have. As I said before, I'm a total nooB wrt CRT PJs, but I'd at least like to vet the idea before dismissing it entirely.


You've got a lot of options available to you, but even though they accomplish the same thing, CRT's and digitals are as different as night and day. Form factor, installation and setup, placement, etc.


----------



## ErinH

I did some digging yesterday. I found a local seller with (2) G90's, but he doesn't know the tube life and doesn't have the remote or even the power cord for them. He's basically selling them for some divorcee who wants her ex's stuff gone. I've been talking with him a bit, and I even have exchanged emails with Curt over the matter. Ultimately, I don't think I'll get them because his asking price is $1250/pair and Curt said with the uncertainty of the unit's life, it's not worth the risk. 

given all that, I'm falling back toward the digital projector. It does what I need at the price I want. While it may lack some of the deepest blacks, the general consensus over on AVS from guys who had CRT (some, even very high end ones such as the Barco 909) and went to digital is they have no issues; the pluses outweigh the negatives. That gave me a bit more comfort in removing myself from the CRT game. 

Now, if the dude accepts my very low offer on the G90's, I might be back in.


----------



## Freedom First

ErinH said:


> I did some digging yesterday. I found a local seller with (2) G90's, but he doesn't know the tube life and doesn't have the remote or even the power cord for them. He's basically selling them for some divorcee who wants her ex's stuff gone. I've been talking with him a bit, and I even have exchanged emails with Curt over the matter. Ultimately, I don't think I'll get them because his asking price is $1250/pair and Curt said with the uncertainty of the unit's life, it's not worth the risk.
> 
> given all that, I'm falling back toward the digital projector. It does what I need at the price I want. While it may lack some of the deepest blacks, the general consensus over on AVS from guys who had CRT (some, even very high end ones such as the Barco 909) and went to digital is they have no issues; the pluses outweigh the negatives. That gave me a bit more comfort in removing myself from the CRT game.
> 
> Now, if the dude accepts my very low offer on the G90's, I might be back in.


There's no denying that the digitals have come a looooong way in reproducing blacks and shadow detail (especially with the 3-chip units). Everyone wanted to get into a contrast ratio war, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Peak luminance doesn't mean anything, either... a brighter projector usually has a more difficult time of producing blacks. I'd be sure to find a PJ that has an adjustable or auto iris.


I can just about guarantee that Curt will be trying to find out where those G90's are...


----------



## ErinH

Oh, I've already talked to Curt about it. I offered to send him one of them if I purchased both and they were in good shape. He actually said he'd only be interested if I got them at $625/pair because otherwise it's not worth it to him. Not knowing the tube life, and considering all the other concerns (weight, no remote, no ac cord, fan, etc), I offered the guy what the risk would be worth. He got huffy. I told him good luck finding a buyer without knowing the info. If Curt balked at even half his asking price, I can't imagine anyone else would want them. I think the guy will come around once he realizes they aren't worth the thousands he thought they were. IF he knew the tube life and IF that number was relatively low it'd be a different story. But Curt told me that almost certainly the green tube would need to replaced and those are $1200/each. Then add in the cost of replacement remotes, the dallas chips at $40/each and the concern of the YA board failure... not worth much to me to risk it. 


Back to the digital Sony I lean.


----------



## Freedom First

Here's a decent one:

VDC Display Systems Electrohome Marquee 8500 Ultra Home Theater Projector | eBay

I'd be going to look at it myself, if I didn't already have my Pro1200 (actually, I have 2).


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Damn $1200/tube is crazy!

Story time, my first experience with CRT was growing up, neighbor across the street was an extremely wealthy radiologist, owned a civilian H1 Hummer before it was cool, 400+ head of elk, etc. Had a CRT short throw projection big screen that was probably 80-100" and we would play NES on it including Duck Hunt. Totally epic for a little kid in the early '90's. That thing was so bright, it was easily visible even on the brightest days.


----------



## ErinH

I just don't see CRT as a viable solution for me. I spent the past two days reading reviews and opinions and ultimately, I think those who are holding on to them for their PQ are realizing that digital PJs are inching closer and closer and prices more affordable than the CRT options. Curt said the G90 (one of the pinnacles of CRT) has taken a big hit the past two years due to this. The pros are being overshadowed. There's a large list of guys on AVS in a thread I read, discussing how they switched to digital (varying budgets) after years of CRT and won't go back. That made up my mind. 

In the event someone is interested in the HW40ES at STELLAR pricing (below current eBay pricing), fully authorized and BNIB, LMK. I'll put you in touch with the guy I'm going with.


----------



## ErinH

I finally got the time to assemble and route out the enclosures for the 15's. Each will house a JBL 2035HPL and will cover about 70-500hz for my L/C/R's. Fb is about 50hz, give or take. From 500hz and up, the horns will take over. The low end is all covered by the SI HT18's and JL 12TW1's. 











FWIW, I built the cabs from the PE 4cuft flat pack. I absolutely love that these things are available for guys like me (ie; guys who like to DIY but don't have the time to go buy all the wood and cut all the panels). They aren't as cheap to buy as they are to build but they save me a lot of time and effort so it's worth it to me to just go the flat-pack way. If I had to cut the wood for the enclosures, I'd probably only be half-way through just building one enclosure at this point. I put all three together in one day. I spent more time cutting out the speaker/port holes than assembling the cabs. Seriously. 

So now that the cabs are built the next step is to load each enclosure and run an impedance sweep so I can match the tuning frequency and try to get the best match I can. From there it'll be time to mate the big-ol' horn and start doing some testing to determine the best crossover point/levels/EQ to get the desired response. After that, they go upstairs and I start building the baffle wall.


----------



## schmiddr2

Nice. Building enclosures from scratch is fun, but nothing beats completing 3 enclosures like that in a day.

This is going to be cool to see if the GTG works out.


----------



## ErinH

Enclosures loaded and swept. Impedance matches pretty well on all of them (about 0.5 ohm difference on the odd-ball, which is fine since it's a straight level thing). The Qts values being different don't concern me at all because a) the differences are actually negligible, although the graph looks work and b) once the high pass filter is involved, these differences matter less. 



The resonances that show up at 700hz/1100hz are driver based; possibly edge or basket resonances... I'd have to measure distances to determine what it is exactly but it's not really important. The tuning frequency actually was lower than I was shooting for (which is fine) at ~45hz. I was shooting for 55hz but thinking there would be too much displacement with the bracing to achieve that, but it looks like there's a lot less than I had accounted for.

The fronts were spray painted black so they wouldn't stick out (color wise) in the wall. Still, they will have black grill cloth over them as well as being covered with 2" wedge foam on the bare wood. Moral of the story: they ain't pretty but it doesn't matter.


----------



## ErinH

I should also note the above impedance sweeps were done with the drivers simply sitting in place and not torqued down (I hadn't even drilled out the screw holes yet). I did this so I could swap out a driver or adjust the fill easily until I hit the desired spec in an effort to better match each speaker. Once torqued down the values will change somewhat. The goal was merely to match the speaker impedance as best I could. 


Next step is to set up the horns and start testing crossover options via the Helix.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

ErinH said:


> Enclosures loaded and swept. Impedance matches pretty well on all of them (about 0.5 ohm difference on the odd-ball, which is fine since it's a straight level thing). The Qts values being different don't concern me at all because a) the differences are actually negligible, although the graph looks work and b) once the high pass filter is involved, these differences matter less.
> 
> 
> 
> *The resonances that show up at 700hz/1100hz are driver based; possibly edge or basket resonances... I'd have to measure distances to determine what it is exactly but it's not really important.* The tuning frequency actually was lower than I was shooting for (which is fine) at ~45hz. I was shooting for 55hz but thinking there would be too much displacement with the bracing to achieve that, but it looks like there's a lot less than I had accounted for.


I've been using phase plugs on all my drivers lately, even the woofers. It offers a few advantages:

1) When you use large woofers, you get really insane center-to-center spacing. For instance, the center to center spacing on my Gedlee Summas is close to three FEET! With this crazy spacing, you get a really narrow vertical lobe. Wayne Parham talked about this for years, even did a video on it, but I didn't pay it any mind until I actually did the measurements myself.

2) The coupling chamber that's part of the phase plug acts as an acoustic low pass filter, which reduces harmonic distortion. This is especially important for the woofer in a system like yours. Your compression driver has headroom to burn, and you have multiple 18" subs. Due to this, your woofer becomes the weakest link in the system, and it's the first to distort. (Or at least that's been my experience.)

3) When using large woofers, the pathlength difference between the two edges of the woofer becomes a problem. For instance, if you take your speakers and you toe them in 45 degrees, *the far edge of the woofer cone is 15" further away than the near edge.* At 500 hertz, that's a phase differnce of one half wavelength, and that creates a null. IE, if you run your fifteens to 500hz and you toe them in, you have a null off axis. Most people just lower the xover point, but I like running fifteens up to 500hz or even 1khz, which means that I have to come up with another solution. *My solution is a phase plug.*

3) It looks neat.










Here's a pic of it. Takes all of twenty minutes to build. Just cover the woofer cone in tinfoil (tinfoil hat?), fill the cone with Great Stuff expanding foam, let it cure, then cut and glue it.

Moar pics available in my build log at diyaudio titled "Black Mirror"


----------



## ErinH

it's an interesting idea, but I don't personally see the need. at least not for this build. After thinking about it, I don't believe the resonances I'm seeing in the impedance plot are driven by the surrounds. I just pulled up the JBL spec again for the 4638th (which uses a pair of 2035's) and you can indeed see the 700hz resonance cause a drop in output by about 6dB which is a clear indication of a single cycle interference. So that may be something I can easily pinpoint. I have a couple ideas of what they are... I'll test those theories tonight. Either way, I don't think there's anything I can do. A phase plug would help resolve lobing issues but if the driver tests OK in this regard then adding a phase plug just makes more problems. Mass would concern me as the goal is HE and any mass will lower the SPL and obviously change other factors (Qts/Fs). Not that the latter is a real concern, but the former could be depending on just how much mass you add. If you figure the mms is less than 80g on these, you'd have to have a really light composite material in order to not impact the T/S parameters in a relatively significant way.

Anyway, if/when you do the testing I'll be interested to see what you get. I may likely forget your thread (no offense, I just forget stuff all the dang time) so if you think of it, PM and let me know you've posted the results. 



As for as THD being high with the 15's, remember, they'll be crossed >70hz which will severely cut down on that factor. I haven't seen anyone Klippel these drivers but my assumption is a broad Bl, which means suspension would likely be the limiting factor, and since that falls at a rate of 6dB/oct ~Fs (56hz), the 70hz crossover will limit throw considerably and therefore attenuate any THD effects caused by the suspension nonlinearities. 

I'm not a "cross low" kind of guy. I'm a "buy big speakers and cross them high" kind of guy.


----------



## Patrick Bateman

Phase has been one of my latest obsessions.

We've all noticed that the sound stage changes when you tilt a speaker. We hear that there's a point where the image converges, and you have a nice 'focus' in the center.

I'd known that this was "A Thing", but hadn't given it much thought on WHY this was until recently. *And I believe it basically boils down to pathlength.*

Going back to the example of the 15" woofer, when you toe it in 45 degrees, the far edge of the cone is now 10.6" further away than the near edge.

That's 180 degrees of phase shift at 636hz, 360 degrees at 1273hz, and 90 degrees of phase shift at 318hz.

Our ears are capable of perceiving ninety degrees of phase shift, so these amounts are all within the spectrum of audibility.

Of course, there's a really easy fix for this, which is to simply toe the speakers in so that the cone edges are equidistant 

But I hope this post is food for thought for the people who don't have that option. For instance, if you have an 5" midrange in a car door that's running to 2khz...


----------



## BoostedNihilist

this thread is delivering the goods.

Im starting my home theatre build. Got some old kenwood junk being run by a decent receiver, but I want to do like you did round 1 and go rack mounted active. Your thread is an inspiration, and I was going to pm you and ask if I could rip your tower design.


----------



## ErinH

dude, if you can drive to my house you can buy the towers and kefs off me (you'd have to buy the scans somewhere else). 

I know you're not close enough to do that... just saying, that's how much I don't care if you copy my design.


----------



## BoostedNihilist

I figured as much, but if I make a build thread and they popped up, it would be a dick move if I hadn't asked  I just don't have time, knowledge, or equipment enough to design the towers, but I can join wood


----------



## ErinH

Patrick Bateman said:


> Phase has been one of my latest obsessions.
> 
> We've all noticed that the sound stage changes when you tilt a speaker. We hear that there's a point where the image converges, and you have a nice 'focus' in the center.
> 
> I'd known that this was "A Thing", but hadn't given it much thought on WHY this was until recently. *And I believe it basically boils down to pathlength.*
> 
> Going back to the example of the 15" woofer, when you toe it in 45 degrees, the far edge of the cone is now 10.6" further away than the near edge.
> 
> That's 180 degrees of phase shift at 636hz, 360 degrees at 1273hz, and 90 degrees of phase shift at 318hz.
> 
> Our ears are capable of perceiving ninety degrees of phase shift, so these amounts are all within the spectrum of audibility.
> 
> Of course, there's a really easy fix for this, which is to simply toe the speakers in so that the cone edges are equidistant
> 
> But I hope this post is food for thought for the people who don't have that option. For instance, if you have an 5" midrange in a car door that's running to 2khz...



At the root of what you're talking about is simply beaming: when the speaker is beaming is when this kind of thing matters. A simple look at a on/off-axis frequency response will tell you that under beaming the phase angle changing (through a wide bandwidth) does not impact the SPL. With this 15" driver, it beams at approximately 450hz (give or take) and the 318hz 90deg phase shift you mentioned is under that value.

IMO, the phase relationship only matters at the crossover, which again is just a means to an end to achieve notional SPL. 

In that regard, if you want to talk about time/phase/frequency, you might actually find the thread I started (and the subsequent method of calculating time delay based on crossover frequency) here interesting: 
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum...nt-via-tape-measure-site-nifty-tweak-too.html

Also, in my build log I discussed the impact of phase/time adjustments at a specific frequency and how I use that information to tune my sub's delay:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/2140219-post648.html


Seriously, read those threads and don't just blow them off. I cover exactly what you're talking about in regards to wavelength vs delay. I think you'll dig it.


----------



## ErinH

BoostedNihilist said:


> I figured as much, but if I make a build thread and they popped up, it would be a dick move if I hadn't asked  I just don't have time, knowledge, or equipment enough to design the towers, but I can join wood


keep in mind I didn't share everything about my towers. if you're going to use different speakers, different width baffle, etc then the parameters change. if you aren't sure why I did what I did, PM me and I'll explain.


----------



## Babs

Didn't take me long to figure out just how dramatically crucial sub phasing is.. Thanks owed to your Vinny post on that Erin.


----------



## ErinH

after getting wind that some folks view my updates here and elsewhere as "bragging" I kind of let it get to me (frankly, it pissed me off given who some of them are and my relationship/what I've done to help them privately). Because of that, I decided that I was done updating my build logs and am backing off the forums because there's just no sense in wasting my time on 'haters'. amazing what you can get done when you're not worrying about updating posts and defending yourself against people you don't know! 

BUT, after tonight, I couldn't help but update this at least once more if for no other reason than to encourage people who ever find themselves with the option to build a false wall or use an AT screen in an HT type setup to DO IT. I'm not "bragging"... I'm sharing my enthusiasm, so if you view my posts as anything more than that feel free to ignore this. I'm not posting for you. 



I've been chipping away at this overhaul over the past week. I've mainly been working on the amp rack, getting everything wired up and ready to go. The Helix DSP Pro is in between my Denon X4000 and the Crown amps. I wanted a cleaner setup and something that was easy to operate, so I'm using the Denon's 12v trigger to fire up the Helix which then will trigger a switched outlet to power up the Crowns. All in all, it works very well. And it looks nicer than the previous iteration:




I wired up all the front speakers tonight and set some basic crossovers with the Helix between the horns/15's. Nothing too technical, just something to allow me to get everything wired up. Everything works... enclosures are good and horns are rockin'. 



But that's all just par for the course. The reason I'm updating this thread is here...

I received my Sony PJ early last week which has been sitting in the office waiting to be used and I couldn't resist the urge to throw together a temporary screen to try the 40es on tonight. I got my photo backdrop setup (haven't used it in years, but so glad I hung on to it) and clamped the spandex I'm using for my AT screen at the corners and top. Fired up the PJ with the screen about 10 ft from the PJ. Given nothing in the current setup is the same as what I had I can't really give impressions based on an apples/apples, but I can say... *WOW*. The PQ of the current setup is *astonishing*. The AT screen I'm building is made up of two layers of milliskin (thanks to the research from Adam): silver as the back layer and white matte on the front layer. I was worried about loss of brightness and overall color/blacks but that's a non-issue. I wound up pushing the screen back to about 38" from the wall which now gives me ~120" diagonal. It looks fan-freaking-tastic! So, I'll build the wall about 30-34" off the real back wall and shoot for a 120" screen. This is a good example also of how doing a temporary setup just to test screen size is a good thing. Would suck to build a screen and it not be the right size. :/

Here's a picture of my temporary rig:






and here's a cell phone picture of Frozen (as much as I've grown tired of the songs, I really do like this movie )






Picture of behind the screen:




*The other factor here is just how GREAT it is to be able to have the speakers behind the screen. *I can keep all of the speakers the same so the tonality matching is dead on, panning seems more fluid, there simply are less visual distractions. Another big factor that I didn't really think about but turned out to be sweet is I can also move the screen lower to the floor (where I used to have to keep it up a bit higher to not project on to the center channel speaker when you don't have an AT screen). It takes you from having to look up to looking directly ahead. 

I'm *stoked* on the PJ choice as well as the decision to do this rebuild. Firing up the system, even in it's temporary state, tonight made me realize I made the right decision. 

*If you have the opportunity to build a projection setup I HIGHLY, HIGHLY encourage you to explore the AT screen option. I know not everyone can do this because they may not be able to build a false wall or even just cut in to drywall to use in-wall speakers, but if you can or think there's a possibility of it, I really encourage you to look in to it. Easily the best decision I've made with my setup and it's not even done.* Just understand that like everything there are trade-offs to a setup like this.


----------



## thehatedguy

What do you think about the speakers?

Blah blah projector lumen blah blah


----------



## spyders03

Very nice, Erin. I can't wait to see and hear it when you are done. And haters are always going to hate. But as hated said, how do those theater speakers sound?!?!


----------



## fullergoku

Hey Erin ignore the haters!!! I love your post on your home theater and car build because I usually learn something and I love to see your progress in your hobbies (I happen to enjoy these 2 myself)


----------



## claydo

I ain't seen no braggin......****, keep the updates coming! I'm with the other guys, I wanna hear your thoughts on the horns......and will it pin your ears back or what?

Oh, and out of curiosity, is the helix in the signal stream just for crossovers, or are ya giving the system the full processing treatment? Of course I realize given who I'm talking to this is probably a stupid question.......and finally, is the helix planned to be a permanent piece of the theater, or is just standing in for a yet to come professional dsp or more typical home theater pre/pro?


----------



## 2010hummerguy

ErinH said:


> after getting wind that some folks view my updates here and elsewhere as "bragging" I kind of let it get to me (frankly, it pissed me off given who some of them are and my relationship/what I've done to help them privately). Because of that, I decided that I was done updating my build logs and am backing off the forums because there's just no sense in wasting my time on 'haters'. amazing what you can get done when you're not worrying about updating posts and defending yourself against people you don't know!
> 
> BUT, after tonight, I couldn't help but update this at least once more if for no other reason than to encourage people who ever find themselves with the option to build a false wall or use an AT screen in an HT type setup to DO IT. I'm not "bragging"... I'm sharing my enthusiasm, so if you view my posts as anything more than that feel free to ignore this. I'm not posting for you.


It never fails to amaze me how ****ty some people can be. The truly unhappy person will stop at nothing to bring those around them down to their level. Then at the end of the day they will wonder what happened to all of their good friends...who all moved on to find happy people who build each other up.

Keep on keepin' on, that is a pretty badass setup.


----------



## Kevin K

Yes Erin, ignore the folks that think your bragging. 
Keep a positive attitude and keep doing what your doing. Some people are just gonna be negative no matter what, so if you keep quite, they'll just move to someone else and be annoying. 
Congrats on the work so far.


----------



## knever3

One word... _*Jealousy*_

I myself am jealous of what people can accomplish when they put their mind, expendable funds, and talent into something they are truly passionate about. What results is a look into their mind, how they think, and how they organize their priorities. There will be people that will go into debt chasing their passion; it's the American way some say. I tend to think if you have the passion now and decide not to chase it you'll lose the opportunity to enjoy a big part of your life. I thoroughly enjoy reading through all the posts here, some just scream either ("I'm really well to do, or I'm in debt up to my eyeballs!") It seems funny no one cares to mention that fellow DIY’er person “A” bought low end budget trash some wouldn’t sell at a garage sale, let alone install in a car! As they say, “To each their own” as it should be.

As with any Diy forum there are many different people chasing their own respective goals, I don't believe you are posting your thread to gloat. If you were to post this thread on a high end home theater forum I'm sure you will get a lot of opinions to how you should have done this different, what you did wrong and how they'd do it. This is primarily an automotive forum so something like this is very refreshing to read. Plus you have the background in the fundamentals of audio which many home theater experts do not have in their resume. Do you think for a second that a home theater purist would try using a 12V automotive processor with their Parasound setup or other? I think not. 

Keep it up, there are plenty of people that aspire to what you are working to accomplish, and doing it yourself to boot!!!


----------



## Beckerson1

Wow must mean that myself and many others here must stop updating build logs. Must be the new word for bragging. Always enjoyed your updates Erin. 

For those haters:

If you don't like your situation, better yourself. Don't take it out on those who are better off.


----------



## danno14

Don't worry about those who talk behind your back. They're behind you for a reason. 

Be well and keep the passion going!


----------



## Niebur3

You made me do it Erin. Especially with the pic of the awesome home theatre with "Frozen" playing. I figured this was right at home. (I have a little girl also)


----------



## schmiddr2

One of the reasons I always look forward to seeing you at events is because you are honest, certainly not bragging. You are a go-getter and that means raising the bar on some things to the point some people online might misinterpret it as bragging.

I really like the AT screen idea, I think it will be a goal for me down the road. Thanks.


----------



## goodstuff

Haters gonna hate. Don't give in to those bitches.


----------



## t3sn4f2

This is one of the few threads I still eagerly click on when I see a new post. Don't pay attention to the reh_tards_. You're not posting for them, you're posting for those that you will never even know exist.


----------



## Golden Ear

Those of us that know you better know that you're not bragging but that you're eager to share your findings with the rest of us and help us further or quest for sq greatness. Don't listen to them, listen to us and please continue to share with us what you're doing. If anyone thinks you're bragging then they can unsubscribe and go away!


----------



## truckguy

Please keep up the posts Erin! I've learned a ton from your comments in other threads. 

I'm still waiting for the part 2 explanation and you tube video of REW!! When you have time of course. . Looks like you've been a tad busy lately. Very nice HT room by the way.


----------



## Babs

Awesome! Love reading up on this build. I don't recall anyone ever using a DSP designed for car like this. Incredible.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Babs said:


> Awesome! Love reading up on this build. I don't recall anyone ever using a DSP designed for car like this. Incredible.


Exactly what I am planning to do with my home active 2-channel build, the Helix DSP is easily a better option than a miniDSP 2x8...less complicated, smaller size, less expensive, better DACs/output stage, RTA built in...plus more reliable. I've had miniDSPs spontaneously burn up channels, almost blew a few hundred dollars in drivers in the process (sent full signal to my SEAS W15CY001 pair) and repairs would have cost $200+ in shipping alone


----------



## Babs

Architect7 said:


> Exactly what I am planning to do with my home active 2-channel build, the Helix DSP is easily a better option than a miniDSP 2x8...less complicated, smaller size, less expensive, better DACs/output stage, RTA built in...plus more reliable. I've had miniDSPs spontaneously burn up channels, almost blew a few hundred dollars in drivers in the process (sent full signal to my SEAS W15CY001 pair) and repairs would have cost $200+ in shipping alone


Compared to measuring in car, I'd bet REW would be a breeze for measuring in HT as opposed to car wrestling with a laptop etc. In HT you can plop your laptop right next to your beer without it sliding around seats, etc. 

Yeah and the Helix probably has far better control capabilities than (I'm guessing here) many of the better HT receivers or separate Pre-Pro's even. Just have to give 'r 12v DC.


----------



## sierrarider

Erin,
I certainly enjoy you sharing your HT build with us. I hope to have a room to dedicate to the theater experience like you've done. Don't let the haters bring you down.


----------



## CDT FAN

goodstuff said:


> Haters gonna hate. Don't give in to those bitches.


x2

Threads like these are part of the reason I come here. I can live vicariously through them, since I surely can't afford it. It also gives me ideas on how to one day do my setup. Please keep posting what you are up to.


----------



## Freedom First

ErinH said:


> *The other factor here is just how GREAT it is to be able to have the speakers behind the screen. *I can keep all of the speakers the same so the tonality matching is dead on, panning seems more fluid, there simply are less visual distractions. Another big factor that I didn't really think about but turned out to be sweet is I can also move the screen lower to the floor (where I used to have to keep it up a bit higher to not project on to the center channel speaker when you don't have an AT screen). It takes you from having to look up to looking directly ahead.
> 
> I'm *stoked* on the PJ choice as well as the decision to do this rebuild. Firing up the system, even in it's temporary state, tonight made me realize I made the right decision.
> 
> *If you have the opportunity to build a projection setup I HIGHLY, HIGHLY encourage you to explore the AT screen option. I know not everyone can do this because they may not be able to build a false wall or even just cut in to drywall to use in-wall speakers, but if you can or think there's a possibility of it, I really encourage you to look in to it. Easily the best decision I've made with my setup and it's not even done.* Just understand that like everything there are trade-offs to a setup like this.



This has been a dream of mine ever since I got into HT over 10 years ago. Unfortunately, it's not feasible in our current home, but one of these days...

Can you elaborate more on the screen build and materials? Though I've wanted an acoustically transparent screen, I've never liked the look of micro-perf HT screens. This sounds like a great alternative.


----------



## etroze

Erin keep the posting up, you have inspired me to take a step and buy a Crown xls1000 to try on my subs. Don't let the haters get you down to much because you sir have a wealth of information that needs to be shared. Hope you keep updating this thread and in the mean time sub'd.


----------



## dgage

Erin - please continue sharing, ignore the haters.

I don't want to derail your thread but thought I'd share this. It is a pair of HS24s I built for a friend and client. My first pair of subs sold by my new home theater sub company. I also built him an 18 for the back based on the HST18 but I told him he likely wouldn't need it since his room isn't very large. The speakers are Seaton Catalyst 12s.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

dgage said:


> Erin - please continue sharing, ignore the haters.
> 
> I don't want to derail your thread but thought I'd share this. It is a pair of HS24s I built for a friend and client. My first pair of subs sold by my new home theater sub company. I also built him an 18 for the back based on the HST18 but I told him he likely wouldn't need it since his room isn't very large. The speakers are Seaton Catalyst 12s.


Soooooo...the million dollar question is, how do they sound? They look awesome!


----------



## t3sn4f2

dgage said:


> Erin - please continue sharing, ignore the haters.
> 
> I don't want to derail your thread but thought I'd share this. It is a pair of HS24s I built for a friend and client. My first pair of subs sold by my new home theater sub company. I also built him an 18 for the back based on the HST18 but I told him he likely wouldn't need it since his room isn't very large. The speakers are Seaton Catalyst 12s.


**** they make the room look small. If it wasn't that you can see the door for perspective you'd swear it was a small bedroom with some slim towers and an small projection screen.


----------



## subwoofery

t3sn4f2 said:


> **** they make the room look small. If it wasn't that you can see the door for perspective you'd swear it was a small bedroom with some slim towers and an small projection screen.


For those that don't know how big the Catalyst 12C really are: 











Kelvin


----------



## dgage

Yeah, the Cat12 LCRs may look small but they're 38"x16" and 14" deep. I have a square and a rectangular offering of the HS24 based sub and the rectangular in the picture is ~8.5 cu.ft. sealed and measures 37"x28"x22". Powered by a SpeakerPower SP1-4000 amp which puts out 4,000w per subwoofer. 

My friends audio calibrator was there today but he took too long and I haven't had a chance to hear them in his room yet. My pair of subs are replacing 8 SI HT18 subs so we have high expectations for them. Generically, the SI HS24 is the single most impressive sub I've ever heard in terms of output, depth, and sound quality.


----------



## Freedom First

subwoofery said:


> For those that don't know how big the Catalyst 12C really are:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kelvin





dgage said:


> Yeah, the Cat12 LCRs may look small but they're 38"x16" and 14" deep.


If both of these posts are accurate, that dude is seriously sawed-off. Practically a midget...  Or, are the L&R on stands??


----------



## dgage

Freedom First said:


> If both of these posts are accurate, that dude is seriously sawed-off. Practically a midget...   Or, are the L&R on stands??


On stands...check the center channel in my picture as that shows it without a stand.

Sorry Erin...I wasn't trying to derail your thread.


----------



## CDT FAN

dgage said:


> On stands...check the center channel in my picture as that shows it without a stand.
> 
> Sorry Erin...I wasn't trying to derail your thread.


Oompah Loompah, dupity doo. j/k  Those are larger than they look in the room. The scale makes the screen look like a 42".


----------



## req

erin, there are a hand full of people on here that I consider the cream of the crop, and you are on the top of that list. between spending your free time testing speakers for years, and posting un-biased results for everyone to mull over without asking anything in return - as well as lending your ideas and opinions to half of the internet you would be furthest from a man who is bragging I have ever seen.

im so glad you decided to post your HT build on here. I almost went with an AT screen, but I could not figure out how to do it in my house because the wall im using is ~20ft wide and has a vaulted ceiling. the room you've got is perfect for what you are making. recently I added some dimmable off-axis lighting behind my couch and yesterday I just build an IB manifold for my second pair of incriminator flatlyne 18's that im going to put into the attic firing into the living room. ive only got a 1kw plate amp for it haha.


as always, props to you sir.


----------



## Freedom First

subwoofery said:


> For those that don't know how big the Catalyst 12C really are:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kelvin


Why oh why oh why did you have to post about those? I've been kinda out-of-the-loop on speaker systems the last few years (been content with what I have), and now that I'm reading about Seaton's offerings, I think may be gonna get in trouble with the wifey...


----------



## dgage

Freedom First said:


> Why oh why oh why did you have to post about those? I've been kinda out-of-the-loop on speaker systems the last few years (been content with what I have), and now that I'm reading about Seaton's offerings, I think may be gonna get in trouble with the wifey...


The Seaton Cat 12 is a nice speaker...JTR 212/215 are nice speakers...and Danley SM60s are a similar speaker. Also recommend listening to the Yorkville U215, which is in the same vain. And Reaction Audio is a new company that's getting some interest. Or ignore this post completely...that's my best advice.


----------



## cubdenno

dgage said:


> The Seaton Cat 12 is a nice speaker...JTR 212/215 are nice speakers...and Danley SM60s are a similar speaker. Also recommend listening to the Yorkville U215, which is in the same vain. And Reaction Audio is a new company that's getting some interest. Or ignore this post completely...that's my best advice.


Definitely ignore!!

Once you go high efficiency for HT... Everything else just becomes ASS.

So save yourself the money...


----------



## Freedom First

cubdenno said:


> Definitely ignore!!
> 
> Once you go high efficiency for HT... Everything else just becomes ASS.
> 
> So save yourself the money...


Too late. I'm already heavily researching...


----------



## ErinH

Back on topic.... 

Thanks for the kind words, guys. Haters are gonna hate. Sometimes I just grow tired of posting stuff only to have it trashed or misconstrued. As you know, it does require time to take photos and type up explanations. But I hope the effort is valued and potentially helps others better their own setups or at least understanding. It's all a learning experience. 





Freedom First said:


> Can you elaborate more on the screen build and materials? Though I've wanted an acoustically transparent screen, I've never liked the look of micro-perf HT screens. This sounds like a great alternative.


I'll save you all the long winded explanation and history of my research and just cut to the chase:

Thread with comparison of manufactured AT screen vs DIY type materials:
Acoustic Transparency of Spandex - The Truth - AVS Forum

In particular, this result from post # 143:
http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/data/2173466/9/97/972833ff_XDvsmilliskinfullscale_zpsf02c36fe.png



That was enough to make my decision for me, so I went with the Milliskin material in two layers. Here's a link to the exact products I'm using. 
White matte on front:
Spandex World fabric Catalog - 795

Silver shiny on back:
Spandex World fabric Catalog - 1691


In retrospect, I think I could have gone without the white and maybe gone with just a single layer of silver or maybe with the silver on the front (I can still try this). People use the white for the gain and the silver for contrast... some double up on the white (instead of using silver on the back layer) to make up gain in a bright room. Since mine's all light controlled I could have gotten away with even using black as the back layer to help with contrast. BUT, I think it looks fine as is. With the overhead lights on, dimmed but still plenty of light to have company move in and out of the room with food (think: entertaining family during the super... game), there's no discernible loss in brightness; at least not enough for anyone to care. So, it really is a great combo for the various needs (completely dark room and dimly lit room with company).

YMMV due to the room lighting, screen size, and PJ used but if you have a light controlled room and wanted to go with something *proven* then you could do the same thing I did and probably be completely fine. Just have to make sure your PJ has enough brightness to make up for the loss in gain due to the AT nature.


----------



## ErinH

thehatedguy said:


> What do you think about the speakers?
> 
> Blah blah projector lumen blah blah


like speakers. 




TBH, I haven't listened to them with a lot of music yet. Mainly it's just been TV/movies for brief periods as I delay progress. Though, I definitely feel the sound quality is a major step up due to the fact that all the mains (L/C/R) are the same and out of sight. The listening experience COMPLETELY changed. Pyschoacoustically, it's just awesome... you don't see a big ol' honkin speaker sitting in front a screen so you focus on what's on the screen. Nevermind watching a movie, but even just listening to music and the speakers aren't screaming "Hey, over here!"... I don't think I'll ever go back to a conventional setup (non AT screen) now unless I just don't have the room. It took me less than 20 seconds to be converted. Heck, even if you don't do the whole HT thing and don't need a screen, I'd recommend just using a large sheet of grille cloth over your entire front wall to hide your stereo speakers. It really has a big impact on the psychoacoustics aspect of the system. 

With the little music I _have _listened to, though, I know the decision was the right one because it's much more 'dynamic' than the previous setup... much like my car. Efficiency/distance/spl... I said this earlier as my rationale for using HE drivers in the HT and I was right. 

Once I get some time to actually listen to music I'll comment further. 





Babs said:


> Awesome! Love reading up on this build. I don't recall anyone ever using a DSP designed for car like this. Incredible.


I'm sure others are doing it. It's just not as easy if you aren't comfortable with 12v. I definitely prefer the helix over the Ranes in this case.


----------



## alpinem

I made a screen with the same material from the same place. Only difference is I used two layers of the white. I also have speakers behind the screen. I wouldn't hesitate to do it again if I had to. I love having the speakers behind the screen and everything sounds great.

Erin, your theater is really coming together. I hope to collaborate with you on a speaker build soon.


----------



## ErinH

great minds think alike! crazy how we often wind up doing so much of the same stuff without even knowing it, man.


----------



## ErinH

random info that someone may benefit from...

Ground loop issues! Argh!!!!!

I initially had an even higher system buzz that stemmed from my satellite ground not being tied to my house main ground. Running a 10gauge wire off the satellite coaxial cable distribution block to the common house ground reduced my initial buzzing by 70% (or something like that). Edit: Got to thank David Hogan for helping me figure out how the electrician wired my ground all weird.


The rest of the 30% was due to a ground loop issue between my Sony projector, Denon receiver, and the HDMI cord connecting the two. The Denon AVR is in a media closet on it's own 20amp circuit shared with a few power amps. There was a fairly strong 'buzz' that would occur when I'd plug my Sony projector in to the ceiling outlet in the room itself (so, two different circuits entirely). This buzz would go away if I ran an extension cord to the media closet outlet (in order to share a common outlet with all the gear). This was my way of verifying the issue was indeed the ground differential between the two components on two different circuits. The differential, it seems, was carried through the HDMI cable (as soon as I disconnected the HDMI cable the noise would go away). So, either put them on the same circuit or have no video... awesome. lol.

I searched around on AVS and found some folks saying the ebtech HumX worked for them in this same scenario. So, I ordered the HumX, plugged it in to the ceiling out, then plugged my Sony projector in to the HumX. Noise = Gone. While it's not necessarily the 'best' solution (that would be to combine all components on the same circuit) and some may view the HumX as 'cheating', the fact of the matter is it works (for my application). 

The HumX took the remaining 30% system buzz and attenuated it to where I have about 5% system buzz (something I can tolerate at least for the time being).


----------



## Freedom First

Erin, what do you think of the Sony PJ, so far?


----------



## ErinH

love. it.


----------



## Freedom First

ErinH said:


> love. it.



No quibbles? 

I'm going to be putting mine up next week (got it sitting here in my office, but waiting on a mount). I'm kinda apprehensive about how I'll like it, compared to my CRT. Oh well, if I'm not satisfied with it, I'll just pawn it off on my dad...


----------



## ErinH

None at all, man. very glad I bought it.


----------



## etroze

Erin, when you build your sub boxes are you going screw less and re-enforcing with fiberglass resin? First time for a HT sub build for me and I went straight to the SI HT18 so actually its the biggest sealed box I've ever built as well lol.


----------



## pocket5s

etroze said:


> Erin, when you build your sub boxes are you going screw less and re-enforcing with fiberglass resin? First time for a HT sub build for me and I went straight to the SI HT18 so actually its the biggest sealed box I've ever built as well lol.


fiberglass for what?

Screws are only really used (or should be) as a clamping force until the glue is cured.


----------



## etroze

Right and I have done that in the past with screws but this is sitting in my living room and if I can't get wood putty to stain well it will bug the crap out of me.
Not actually fiberglass but using the resin to seal and re-enforce joints where glue can be very thin. Just an extra step that I know works 100% of the time for me when sealing boxes.


----------



## pocket5s

etroze said:


> Right and I have done that in the past with screws but this is sitting in my living room and if I can't get wood putty to stain well it will bug the crap out of me.
> Not actually fiberglass but using the resin to seal and re-enforce joints where glue can be very thin. Just an extra step that I know works 100% of the time for me when sealing boxes.


resin on its own provides almost no support. it is quite brittle. I would think a bead of calk would be far easier and messier for that little bit of extra sealing if desired. 

Or, step up to liquid nails, or PL glue or similar which would provide both adhesion and sealing. I've used liquid nails to bond metal to wood quite well, but PL type glues are used quite often in large enclosure builds for its strength.


----------



## etroze

Good to know, thanks for the tip. See learn something everyday lol.


----------



## thehatedguy

What about the horns?


----------



## cajunner

Thanks in advance for your help.


----------



## goodstuff

Buzzing drives me nuts. I would be pissed working as hard as you have to end up getting noise.


----------



## ErinH

goodstuff said:


> Buzzing drives me nuts. I would be pissed working as hard as you have to end up getting noise.


it's not atypical, really. especially when your speakers are ~100dB efficient and you've got megawatt amplifiers feeding them. LOL. 

Luckily the HumX resolved my issues for the most part. I haven't really had the desire the past couple weeks to work on the HT build. I've actually just been enjoying it the way it is. Watching Justified has never been so awesome.


----------



## ErinH

etroze said:


> Good to know, thanks for the tip. See learn something everyday lol.


Robert covered what I would have said. 

That said, I'm actually not building sub boxes for the HT18's. They're going to be IB.


----------



## etroze

That's right, I've been back and forth through a ton of threads and for some reason I thought I saw you were building boxes. Sorry for the thread clutter and the info did help.


----------



## ErinH

Been a while. Some time for updates...

started from the bottom...









... now we here...






The right side isn't attached to anything so I can slip behind the wall and move speakers around once I get everything set up and ready to go. For those who are curious, the front of the speakers are about 42" off the wall behind them. And, yes, those _are_ cinder blocks. EssQ cinder blocks, to be exact. 

As it stands, if nothing else I have to say this: listening to speakers that are completely hidden is a total trip. And this setup sounds incredible. Staging like I've never heard. I initially didn't expect this to be a 'reference', per se, but that is definitely not the case. When you sit in the chair and see a solid black wall and can pinpoint a triangle that's 10 feet behind the lead vocalist in a song with no doubt as to where the sound is coming from, that's just to_o cool_.

The screen is up next. Then some other stuff (rear seats, ceiling treatment and dark carpet to knock down screen reflections, more subs, popcorn machine) as I get time/funds.


----------



## TheDavel

That's flat out amazing Erin!!


----------



## etroze

Awesome work.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


----------



## Babs

NOW! she's ready for popcorn and battle of the five armies. 


Sent from iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

TheDavel said:


> That's flat out amazing Erin!!


thanks!


----------



## ErinH

Got the screen built last night and squeezed in a couple trial runs on the new setup. 


















Here's a shot from behind the wall:


----------



## Brian_smith06

SICK!


----------



## strakele

Dude that's freaking awesome.


----------



## damonryoung

Very cool!

Now bring that thing out to California for a demo...


----------



## t3sn4f2

Looks great Erin. Must be an experiance to watch a movie there. Any plans to do an HT style porting on the subs?


----------



## ErinH

The subs are ported. Tuned to 19hz. I used the Stonehenge flat pack from DIYSG.


----------



## t3sn4f2

ErinH said:


> The subs are ported. Tuned to 19hz. I used the Stonehenge flat pack from DIYSG.


Nice!


----------



## strakele

strakele said:


> Anyway, this is a very cool project Erin and I enjoy following it. I wish I had a house where I could do something similar. 2 years...



Well it's been nearly 2 years and now I'll be looking for a house in a few months. I hope to be able to find a place to recreate much of what you have done here. Thanks for posting everything in this thread - it'll cut down a lot of research time 

Sticking with the enclosed subs or still planning on going IB at some point? Still using the JL 12s for satellite subs?

It looks like the foam around the speakers is covering the ports on the JBL enclosures. Is this the case or it just the angle of the picture?

What are you using for surrounds/rears/high/wide if anything?


----------



## ErinH

Gray, here's some answers. 

No IB for me. I'm satisfied with the output of the larger woofers. One benefit of IB is the ability to keep things hidden. But with a false wall, I can put the large enclosures behind the wall. Plus, frankly, I don't want to cut large holes in the wall. I've got ideas for the satellite subs but no longer using the JL's. I have an AuraSound 18" on hand that may get used if it doesn't sell sometime soon. 

The foam does cover the ports, but it's not flush or inside. So they're more 'in the way' than 'inside', if you know what I mean. 

Surrounds are JBL 8330A's. 8" woofer, 5" mid and 1" tweeter built in. Very nice wall-mount type speakers. And come angled about 15 deg or so, which points them right toward the listener at their mounted height. They actually came out of the local theater. 

Right now I'm only running 5.x and I don't really foresee stepping up to anything more than that. I could do rear speakers but they'd be in the way of the layout of the back of the room.


----------



## YukonXL04

ErinH said:


> Gray, here's some answers.
> 
> 
> Surrounds are JBL 8330A's. 8" woofer, 5" mid and 1" tweeter built in. Very nice wall-mount type speakers. And come angled about 15 deg or so, which points them right toward the listener at their mounted height. They actually came out of the local theater.


I have a single JBL 8340A laying around that came from a local theater. Havent come up with any good uses for them yet. 

Thats a heck of a home theater. Whats the specs on those HT18 boxes? Curious what the port area and box size your running on them. I have one too


----------



## ErinH

The enclosure is this one:
The Stonehenge DIY Sound Group


----------



## etroze

Erich is great to deal with at DIYsoundgroup if you guys haven't gotten a chance to buy anything from them. Just finishing up a flat pack build with an SI 18 from him and cuts are perfect. 
Erin you are making me want to have a house that is just theater lol.


----------



## strakele

When you were raving about the SQ of the new system with music, was that just 2 channel? 2.1? Or with the center? Definite step up above the KEF/Scan setup?

How much EQ do you have/plan to have on the system? Using any of the Audyssey stuff from the AVR or all from the DSP Pro?

Any pics of the surrounds hung up? Pics I've seen make them seem enormous - the 8" woofer looks small in comparison to the overall size of the enclosure lol.


----------



## ErinH

2.1. 

I ran Audyssey... actually really like what it does. I do want to bring back in the Rane's to the mix to see if I can dial in the response without using Audyssey, but for now I'm just using the Crown's built-in X-over network between the horn/mid for the front L/C/R and the Audyssey XT32 setup and I'm quite happy with the results. 

I'll post some pictures up soon. I built the rear seat riser and bought carpet yesterday. Just need to get it in place and then I'll take some pictures of the current state of the room and post them up.


----------



## ErinH

Guess I can share a pic or two of the progress...

This one you can see the surround in.


----------



## ErinH

I've been steadily chipping away at this for the past few weeks. Right now I'd say the room is about 90% done. Mostly small stuff like getting material to close out the edges of the front wall and build some enclosures for additional subs that might double as end tables for the second row seats. Though, mainly I need to add the movie posters. I ordered up a couple rare and somewhat costly posters last week which depleted my poster fund quickly. The next round is going to be custom printed posters on acoustically transparent material so I can DIY some acoustic panels like you see here.



So on with the updates...

I ordered a second row of seats. This is what I got:
Seatcraft Eros Theater Seating - Theater Seats | 4seating

Same seats that are on the front row. I considered curved front seats but decided against it... it would have been about $300-400 more _minimum _and I didn't think it would go as well in the room based on some pictures I saw on avsforum. 

I built the rear seat platform this week and carpeted it the other night. Overall platform height is 10". I chose not to build a step in to the platform because I felt that would be more awkward than not having a step. Besides, my 4 yo has no problem getting on the second row seating as it is. 













Note: If you're curious about the build of the riser, here you go.

The riser is approximately 96" wide by 65" deep, 10" tall. The width is about 4" longer than the physical width of the seats to have some extra room when standing up and stepping up/down. The depth is perfect for both the front row and rear row to recline and not bump in to each other. These chairs are called "wall saver" which means when the foot rest is extended, the back of the chair is still only back about 3". 
The height was chosen based on a couple things: 1) non-compromised view for the rear seat and 2) 2x10's are cheaper than 2x12's. 
It worked out that the 10" height was fine for #1 so I went with it. 

It was built out of 2x10's and 2 sheets of 3/4" OSB (1 layer) with about 2 rolls of pink stuff in between each board. Why pink stuff?... because I wanted some way to keep the riser from sounding like an empty drum. When I set the OSB down on the frame and walked acrossed you could hear the effect. I had already bought the insulation but wanted to make sure it was even needed. It was. So I threw it in. In total, I'd say I have about $100 in the riser, not including the cost of the carpet which was another $62 ($0.60/sqft, 8x12ft).

Build pics can be seen on my PB page. Just follow the link attached to one of the photos above and you'll be able to meander through them. But here's an example of it in progress:


----------



## ErinH

Though, the theme of the room is largely 'home theater', I wanted to have some sort of dedicated space for a 'music vibe'. Especially since I finally got a nice turntable.

I wanted to have the turntable on display in the back left corner of room so it would give that separation of "here's where the HT begins but this is my little music niche". To do that I ran the RCA and power cord through the wall in to the media closet and put the turntable on the old school cabinet type turntable. My wife had the idea to pick some favorite albums and frame the album covers to give the corner a little something extra. Given how much enjoyment of music is driven by psychoacoustics, I wanted to have a cool little 'comfy' vibe to the room, so to speak. So, I bought a cheap little desk lamp. This allows me to go up stairs, put on a record and listen without having to turn the overhead can lights on (which kind of kill the listening experience _for me_). I'll also run a 1/4" minijack cable through the wall for headphone listening, should I ever get the urge to listen that way.


Some info on the turntable...
The turntable is from U-Turn Audio. They have two off the shelf designs: the Orbital and the Orbital Plus. The basic is $179 and the Orbit Plus is $309. Or you can custom build one, which is the route I went. Mine is closer to the Plus but with the Grado Black cartridge as opposed to the Grado Blue cartridge and a cueing lever (because I'm a fumbling buffoon).

I initially ordered it in blue but it came beat up from shipping so they immediately offered to send me a replacement. I requested white and am much happier with that color. The blue, to me, is rather dull. The white looks better in the room.


Here's the blue I received:










And here's the white I wound up with:











We are on the lookout for a nice table to put at the back right corner of the room to put our little popcorn machine on (link here). I'm tempted to build a little counter there with a nice corian countertop but I think it would physically stick out too far so I may not go that route anyway.


----------



## strakele

Man it's really coming together. Very cool. 

Would you say the angled portion between ceiling and walls helps, hurts, or doesn't make enough difference to matter in the overall acoustics of the room?

How did you decide on the fore/aft placement of the surrounds?


----------



## ErinH

strakele said:


> Man it's really coming together. Very cool.
> 
> Would you say the angled portion between ceiling and walls helps, hurts, or doesn't make enough difference to matter in the overall acoustics of the room?
> 
> How did you decide on the fore/aft placement of the surrounds?


I can't say for sure about the knee walls as to how it effects the acoustics. I could see it helping and hurting various modes (axial, oblique, tangential) but I won't delve in to that because it's not founded on anything other than a guess. The only thing I do know is the Schroeder Frequency will be moved up because there's less physical room volume compared to the room being a rectangle. But I'd imagine you're talking very minute differences... probably 5hz. Worth noting is the knee wall on the left side of the room (facing toward the screen) doesn't extend all the way back; the room is not symmetrical. The knee wall on the left stops at about 8ft from the back wall. 


placement of the surrounds was based on this:
Surround Sound Speaker Set Up « THX.com



hope that helps!


----------



## strakele

Interesting. Most setup diagrams I have seen had you placing the surrounds further back - 10-30 deg behind the listening position.

One of the houses I'm looking at has a very similar room to yours above the garage with the angled walls, although it looks slightly smaller. But as soon as I saw it I immediately thought of this thread


----------



## cajunner

strakele said:


> Man it's really coming together. Very cool.
> 
> Would you say the angled portion between ceiling and walls helps, hurts, or doesn't make enough difference to matter in the overall acoustics of the room?
> 
> How did you decide on the fore/aft placement of the surrounds?


I say it helps, a lot.

Bass is tightened up, there's less hot spots in a room with knee walls and large angled sections of room ceiling/wall juncture.

if the room isn't encroached on visually with thoughts of cramped room syndrome, the upstairs "free space" produces a very suitable acoustic gradient from 200 hz on down.

but that's just an opinion.


----------



## ErinH

This will probably be my last update in this thread altogether, because I don't really foresee anything major changing. The room is pretty much complete. Most of the things I have left to do are just little things here and there (like possibly hooking up my two Rane's for full active control on everything, running cabling for OTA TV, etc). Stuff most people wouldn't care anything about anyway. So with that said...

update time...

I finally built my acoustic panels/posters. I followed the guide on AVSforum and got some help from a member there with sizing the images I wanted to use. 
Each 'poster' is 24x36". 
For those curious, I'd estimate I have about $50 in each panel (counting wood, fabric print, and roxul rockboard 60). 

I know the designs aren't everyone's cup of tea, but so be it. I'm digging the Nightmare Before Christmas poster the most.


Here's the roxul in the frames. 





And here's the acoustic panel/posters:














Toward the back of the room (first ones you get to on each side when you walk in) are traditional movie posters. I paid a bit of a premium for each because they are both limited edition but I love 'em. When I saw the Ivan Drago one I nearly fell out of my chair. I had to track down the artist to get one of the last four he had remaining.


----------



## ErinH

This will probably be my last update in this thread altogether, because I don't really foresee anything major changing. The room is pretty much complete. Most of the things I have left to do are just little things here and there (like possibly hooking up my two Rane's for full active control on everything, running cabling for OTA TV, etc). Stuff most people wouldn't care anything about anyway. So with that said...

update time...

I finally built my acoustic panels/posters. I followed the guide on AVSforum and got some help from a member there with sizing the images I wanted to use. 
Each 'poster' is 24x36". 
For those curious, I'd estimate I have about $50 in each panel (counting wood, fabric print, and roxul rockboard 60). The depth of the frames is 3", and the material is about 2", so there's about 1" air gap to help a bit more with low(er) frequency absorption. 

I know the designs aren't everyone's cup of tea, but so be it. I'm digging the Nightmare Before Christmas poster the most.


Here's the roxul in the frames. 





And here's the acoustic panel/posters:














Toward the back of the room (first ones you get to on each side when you walk in) are traditional movie posters. I paid a bit of a premium for each because they are both limited edition but I love 'em. When I saw the Ivan Drago one I nearly fell out of my chair. I had to track down the artist with the help of the place that was selling them to get one, which was one of four he had left. There's one on eBay for $199 last I saw but luckily I didn't pay that.


----------



## thehatedguy

If you are going to make a last update, make it a double


----------



## bertholomey

thehatedguy said:


> If you are going to make a last update, make it a double



That's funny! I thought the same thing....blaze of glory.


----------



## cajunner

love the way the acoustic controls are incorporated into the cinematic scheme, it's a stupendous execution and I am most impressed...! ...? ...-

a shame to end this thread as it's a moving shrine to the audio winds, I feel sometimes like I've hopped aboard an airport moving walkway entering the thread, post-traveling through the various mods as they take shape and eventually tie into the purpose-driven results.


if this is the finish line then so be it but little bits can be illuminated too, I'd like to see when you move in the second center or extra side-rears, or do some floor/ceiling bass traps behind the veil, er... stage curtain.

one of my favorite threads as it brings in the car audio romance with the dalliance of Kef's, and then the concession towards true JBL cinematic grandeur, if only I could come upon a theater that put pro audio cabs on the curb for a pick-up, then...


----------



## etroze

Wow very nice work, looks professional, looks like an actual "home" theater and love the poster touch. My wife and I have been looking at doing that and now maybe I can show her this to get a little nudge in the right direction.


----------



## ErinH

bertholomey said:


> That's funny! I thought the same thing....blaze of glory.


I ain't even gonna fix it! Take that, internet!


----------



## bertholomey

ErinH said:


> I ain't even gonna fix it! Take that, internet!


Such an amazing and tasteful execution of this room - I am certainly going to see about making a trip down to see it / hear it in person. I am extremely impressed as well with the posters and such.....it really puts that polish on the whole room - great with the AV stuff and the seats, but those posters really 'make' the room. 

And funny with that gif......I have seen this dropping of the mic in a few commercials over the last couple days - no idea where that came from


----------



## ErinH

etroze said:


> Wow very nice work, looks professional, looks like an actual "home" theater and love the poster touch. My wife and I have been looking at doing that and now maybe I can show her this to get a little nudge in the right direction.





bertholomey said:


> Such an amazing and tasteful execution of this room - I am certainly going to see about making a trip down to see it / hear it in person. I am extremely impressed as well with the posters and such.....it really puts that polish on the whole room - great with the AV stuff and the seats, but those posters really 'make' the room.
> 
> And funny with that gif......I have seen this dropping of the mic in a few commercials over the last couple days - no idea where that came from


Thanks for the feedback, fellas. 

Yea, it seems like with each addition the room got a little more like a home theater. The posters really seemed to make it jump up a couple notches. Plain walls just were so boring.


----------



## 0nbagz

Hmm, this is on Audioholics correct?


----------



## ErinH

Yes, but I haven't updated that thread in nearly a year. A LOT has changed since then, as you can see.


----------



## ErinH

cajunner said:


> love the way the acoustic controls are incorporated into the cinematic scheme, it's a stupendous execution and I am most impressed...! ...? ...-
> 
> a shame to end this thread as it's a moving shrine to the audio winds, I feel sometimes like I've hopped aboard an airport moving walkway entering the thread, post-traveling through the various mods as they take shape and eventually tie into the purpose-driven results.
> 
> 
> if this is the finish line then so be it but little bits can be illuminated too, I'd like to see when you move in the second center or extra side-rears, or do some floor/ceiling bass traps behind the veil, er... stage curtain.
> 
> one of my favorite threads as it brings in the car audio romance with the dalliance of Kef's, and then the concession towards true JBL cinematic grandeur, if only I could come upon a theater that put pro audio cabs on the curb for a pick-up, then...


If I do anything noteworthy I'll post it up. I just don't really expect to change or add anything noteworthy, per se. I have a few odds 'n ends to do such as buy a table for the popcorn machine, finish out the front wall with some material (to cover the access areas), set up the Ranes, add an amp... _maybe _build some bass traps. But these, to me, are pretty minimalistic things.

I do need to take some legit pictures with the wideangle camera and post those up sometime, though. And if I ever get around to it, I'll post some FR plots as well.



I still have yet to nail down the final crossover network of the mains. Right now I'm just using the Crown's built in crossover at ~600hz (can't recall the exact frequency) for these and while the combo of that and Audyssey work to provide a really good sound, I know I can do better with the Ranes. So, I'll have to do some measuring of the mains for that.


----------



## req

I'm totally jealous haha.


----------



## subwoofery

Got time to play with a multiple subs setup? Geddes style?

Kelvin


----------



## ErinH

subwoofery said:


> Got time to play with a multiple subs setup? Geddes style?
> 
> Kelvin


I've got two already. I plan to try a 3rd at some point, once the funds are there. For the time being, the two work pretty well.


----------



## Inferno333

How do you like the Audyssey feature? I have never used it, but now that my HT is in it's final resting place I wouldn't might giving it a go.

Any tips? I don't have my surrounds or second sub in yet.


----------



## 2010hummerguy

ErinH said:


> This will probably be my last update in this thread altogether, because I don't really foresee anything major changing.


That's what they all say! Just kidding...I'm finding very little motivation to jump on the Atmos wagon now, especially since most of our viewing is either TV or non-Atmos Blu-Ray and then pretty much everything is a Blu-ray rip to my media server and I am sure Atmos is going to be a giant file. Maybe someday when the high-end prepros and media NAS/storage are a little more affordable.

The panels look awesome, they've inspired me to start planning mine.


----------



## subwoofery

ErinH said:


> I've got two already. I plan to try a 3rd at some point, once the funds are there. For the time being, the two work pretty well.


Don't remember well, was that 2 x 12" JLs? 

I know bass is easy to reproduce but do they keep up with your HE floorstanders? 

Kelvin


----------



## ErinH

2 SI HT18


----------



## subwoofery

ErinH said:


> 2 SI HT18


Ohh yeah... Now I remember (feels dumb :blush 

Kelvin


----------



## Patrick Bateman

ErinH said:


> I've got two already. I plan to try a 3rd at some point, once the funds are there. For the time being, the two work pretty well.


With a multi-sub setup, I found that varying the height makes a huge difference. (Yet another idea I stole from Geddes.)

He used to seel some bandpass subs where the port was about 4' above the floor.


----------



## 0nbagz

This is looking good


----------



## oabeieo

ErinH said:


> 2 SI HT18





Oabeieo said:


>


----------



## ErinH

cool update... especially for those of you in to video games (which I haven't been in to since the PS1)...

I had some in-laws over tonight and told my 10 year old nephew to bring his Xbox One over with and I'd hook it up in the HT. He brought Star Wars Battlefront and Madden '15. Madden blew me away... it looked so freaking real. Loooooong way from Tecmo Bowl on the NES. haha.


Here's a few cell phone pictures to illustrate the coolness!


----------



## quality_sound

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

I was asked by Kelvin what the picture looks like with the lights on over in my thread on CAJ. Thought some might be interested to see the results here as well.





erinh said:


> with the 4 can lights on wide open there is still plenty of brightness. but keep in mind that has a lot to do with the gain of the screen as well. still, for an acoustically transparent screen, you're losing gain off the bat. estimates say my setup is around 0.8-0.85 gain. and it's plenty enough to watch TV with family over and keep the lights on.


took some pictures for examples.

this is with all 4 can lights turned on at full, 100% brightness. still plenty of visibility on the screen.





this is with the lights dimmed to about 75% brightness:






and this is with the lights dimmed to about 30-40% brightness:






side note: Stitch!!!!!


----------



## pocket5s

Photos no worky


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ErinH

edit: look like they're working to me.


----------



## Bmxnick101

They make eyelids for most cans, that would help a ton. Not that it needs it, nice setup!


----------



## ErinH

Not a _major_ update but an update nonetheless...

Last Summer Crown released a 2nd version of their DriveCore XLS amps. Same power as the version 1 I have (had) but a few notable differences:

New look.
Switched turn-on capability.
Input sensitivity selectable between 0.7 or 1.4 volts (as opposed to just the 1.4v the v1 has).
More diverse crossover features. In my case, the ability to set the crossover frequency at different points. For example, with the v1 you have to use the same crossover point when splitting signal for 2-way purposes, such as 671hz for both woofer and horn. Now I can set the woofer for 600hz and the horn for 650hz (or something like that). Currently not using the rane so the amp's DSP is really useful. Because of this you can also choose to use a HPF, LPF or Bandpass for either/both channels where before you didn't have that same flexibility. 
Adjustable display controls such as brightness and on/off (which is a plus when all the lights are off and I don't want the light shining under the media closet door).


I found a pair of XLS 2002's cheap locally so bought them. Then added a pair of XLS1502's. The amp configuration isn't exactly symmetrical; I'd like to have the same amps for all the front speakers but that would require me spending more money for all 2002's or selling a 2002 and getting a third 1502. Not really necessary, though. So I have a 2002 for the subs and a 2002 for the center. The 1502's are for the left and right speakers. I could use another amp for the surround speakers but right now I'm powering them off the AVR and that seems to be doing the job just fine. 


The new look is what got me. And now that they're in the amp rack, I know it was the right decision. That rack looks awesome now with all black components. To me it really has a genuine "movie theater" look now.


----------



## Inferno333

That does look pretty sharp Erin!


----------



## 2010hummerguy

Very cool, the new amps look awesome.


----------

